# SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight



## Glock 22

*The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

I spoke to a retail salesman today and asked him when this model was going to be out. He said give me a minute so I can check my list of releases and the answer I got was Mid May when he will have them instock. Has anyone else heard anything different? The place was eagle optics.


*EDIT: *Finally it's going to be released a half a year later.


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## damn_hammer

i laugh at surefire release dates. i can't think of anything i trust less.


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## Sgt. LED

Anti-lock breaking systems made of cardboard?


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## Glock 22

Just got off the phone with Tactical leds and I'm second in line for the new EB1. Right now they are just taking phone preorders, and one of the main salesman told me March or early April. John Moyer is who I talked to.


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## PoliceScannerMan

damn_hammer said:


> i laugh at surefire release dates. i can't think of anything i trust less.



Yeah, I would trust a crack head going down the block to break a $100 bill for me more.


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## CarpentryHero

PoliceScannerMan said:


> Yeah, I would trust a crack head going down the block to break a $100 bill for me more.



LOL awesome


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## Tommygun45

The one reason I think there might be some validity to the claims is based on the recent drop in prices. I was emailing back and forth with Victora at spidertactical and she was saying how they are getting hosed with the new price drops. It only makes sense that they will need to fill that heightened price point with new products. The EB1 seems like a logical successor as the E1B dropped to fairly pedestrian prices. Its lower than its ever been, well that Ive ever seen it at least. The longer they have these low prices the longer they are losing that profit margin that they can gain by selling higher end stuff. I mean how much of a markup can there be on a UB3T when the thing drops almost $200 dollars? They need those $550 lights and the ~$2-300 lights to fill that niche in their lineup. But, alas, it wouldn't be the first time Ive been swindled by a crack head.


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## MrBenchmark

Tommygun45 said:


> The one reason I think there might be some validity to the claims is based on the recent drop in prices.



I had the same thought. An excellent reason to drop prices like that is because you are about to release a bunch of new things, and you need to clear out the old stuff, because once you release the new stuff, the older inventory becomes even less valuable.


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## Flashlight Dave

I think I mentioned this in another post but as soon as I saw that surefire had discontinued their incandescent line including the L1 it seemed to me that they were going to fill those empty spots with something. My first thought was the L1s assumed replacement the LX1. I also noted that they mentioned new rechargeables to come that made me think more lights of all kinds.


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## Glock 22

I e-mailed John back at tacticalleds.com for an update on the EB1, not sure on what he talking about on the batteries, I was first told May but who knows it may never come up for sale? Here's what he said

"So far nothing. I spoke to my rep early last week and he was saying about 2 
weeks yet for the rechargeables that were scheduled out the same time. He didn't 
have anything specific on the EB1 but he was guessing the same timeframe."


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## brianna

If you research threads past, you will see many times the term vapor wear. It means just because it is in the catalog it may never exist for purchase. However I really do believe this model will exist because of the recent price drops on the old E1B. The really big question is will the EB1 exist in the year 2012?


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## brianna

I over heard a conversation from two military personal at a Wendy's discussing the surefire EB1. They were talking about bulk purchases of lights. They were saying it will not be available till the last quarter of the year, so they may have to purchase the E1b models instead. I would guess this to be accurate information because it is going to be a bulk military purchase. They must have been provided accurate information I am guessing because they would be making such a large purchase.


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## GeoBruin

It's going to have to be quite an upgrade to replace my 210 lumen, warm E1B 








*EDIT* By the way, thanks to Glock 22 for the host!


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## Patriot

We sell a large volume SF at the retail store I work at and the EB1 isn't in *our* May line up.


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## Glock 22

I figured tactical leds would end up wrong, I was just to dumb to admit it. Typical Surefire tease us and get our hopes up. It just makes me sick. If my mind don't change it's off my list. Oh well. 


:thumbsup: Your welcome GeoBruin.


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## brianna

You are not dumb to believe it, just hopeful like a lot of people here are.


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## Glock 22

Thanks for the info. I was real hopeful.



brianna said:


> You are not dumb to believe it, just hopeful like a lot of people here are.


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## jonesy

What dropin powers this cool light? Is it the M31W?


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## GeoBruin

If you're referring to my post, the answer is yes. It's the body from the 110 lumen E1B, a Valiant Concepts VME head and a Malkoff M31w. It's awesome. I've thought about putting an M31WL or WLL in it, but it's sure a pocket cannon as it is. Also, it's no run time slouch. ~45 minutes of full output and a long taper after that from what I hear. 



jonesy said:


> What dropin powers this cool light? Is it the M31W?


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## Sgt. LED

Oveready might have an m31NL somewhere for you to enjoy.
Not as warm so you are brighter than WL and you'll gain runtime without having to live with the cool tints.
A thought..................... Can't source N (neutral) models anyplace else but Gene!

Edit/ you'll have to hit up the man himself for the N, it's a No at Oveready currently.


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## chnzwh

It's already in stock?

http://www.ondutygear.com/control/product/~product_id=SF-EB1-BACKUP


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## kyhunter1

You had me excited for a minute or two. Just got off the phone with them. The answer is no. Were back to square one.


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## LightWalker

The Surefire EB1 is for sale on the B&H website.


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## bshanahan14rulz

Doesn't look like it's stocked. 2-4 weeks looks like a generic response. Not that I'd buy one, I'm just hoping to find a nice E1b for cheap now


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## CarpentryHero

chnzwh said:


> It's already in stock?
> 
> http://www.ondutygear.com/control/product/~product_id=SF-EB1-BACKUP



Thanks for the link, even though they don't ship till may, thats a great photo representing the Body details 
:thumbsup: 

I hope the E1L and E1B go on sale soon


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## tobrien

nice job guys! hopefully we'll see it soon enough!


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## Glock 22

:shrug:Talked to a Surefire employee today, and he said that the EB1 should be out around the third quarter of this year. So all these websites say's Spring 2012 is wrong, he sadi somewhere before or after August.


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## BLUE LED

I am sure that the wait will be worth it, as I am looking forward to the EB1.


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## tobrien

BLUE LED said:


> I am sure that the wait will be worth it, as I am looking forward to the EB1.


it better be, or all of CPF will boycott SF 

just kidding because that'd never happen lol


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## chnzwh

It's May already, still nothing? Can't wait to purchase a silver one w/ tactical tailcap switch!


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## Glock 22

Hey Surefire I know you'll read these threads. What's the deal? There are probably a few thousand people or more waiting to buy this EB1. So when will we ever see it?


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## Smokescreen

I know this is one I've been waiting on.


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## AZPops

I'm also waiting for the EB1 AND LX2 Up Grade or Ultra. But I have B&H's Titan T1A 100 lumens page open for the past few weeks, and thinking about hitting that order button to scratch that itch for now!


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## Federal LG

190 dollars??

OH SF, COME ON!!


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## Glock 22

:thinking: Just thinking if they was to release the EB1. I believe it would boost there sales thru the roof, and give us Surefire fans an awesome light and we could stop :sweat:, wondering if it's ever going to be released. Business to do what, that is to please your customers. So how about it? Does anyone else agree with me?


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## jhc37013

Yes that EB1 will be the first SF that has had me interested in awhile I love the TIR, hopefully it's 200 Surefire lumens but it could be just 200 but I still like the new look of the head. Question is will I leave the tailcap stock or go like I have in the past with the E1B and a Z61, it was a easy decision with the E1B it just made it easier it grip as I always thought the stock tailcap was slippery but with the look of the new EB1 I will hate to mess up the good looks.


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## AZPops

I'm actually hoping that the LX2 ultra or upgrade shows up soon as well.


Oh I agree about pleasing or better, taking care of their customers needs or what is promised. Treating customer like mushrooms, ain't all that respectful IMO! ... lol


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## tonywalker23

i agree 


GLOCK 22 said:


> :thinking: Just thinking if they was to release the EB1. I believe it would boost there sales thru the roof, and give us Surefire fans an awesome light and we could stop :sweat:, wondering if it's ever going to be released. Business to do what, that is to please your customers. So how about it? Does anyone else agree with me?


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## brianna

This light is scheduled for a 4th quarter release 2012.


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## kyhunter1

I hope you are right. Bring on the EB1. 200 lumens + the same runtime as the former E1B = awesomeness. This is the only new SF that has my attention this year. Maybe SF will pull thru and put this light into production.


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## RedForest UK

ondutygear has it scheduled for a release in May: 'The SureFire EB1-Backup will be available in May 2012.'


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## LGT

brianna said:


> This light is scheduled for a 4th quarter release 2012.


Curious, where did you find that info? And I wonder whre SF's fourth quarter falls.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Just when I thought my wallet could take a break, they have to come out with the Fury, Lawman and now the EB1. When will this end! (Never, I hope!!!)


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## brianna

LGT said:


> Curious, where did you find that info? And I wonder whre SF's fourth quarter falls.



Read #12 of this thread. October - December is their 4th quarter.


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## CarpentryHero

RedForest UK said:


> ondutygear has it scheduled for a release in May: 'The SureFire EB1-Backup will be available in May 2012.'



1 week left in may, but I hope your find is right.


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## chnzwh

It seems that we have a new ETA


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## AZPops

Yup saw that as well!


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## Robin24k

At the moment, yes the EB1 is scheduled to be available in July. If all goes as planned, SureFire will start shipping them out in late June and I should get one to review before July. 

http://www.led-resource.com/upcoming-led-products/

You can keep an eye on that page, as I will be updating it as I get new information.


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## Up All Night

I stumbled upon that while looking at a Z68 for my E1B. Then I thought "let's see if Robin24k will chime in on this". Well, here you are! The worst part is I have the catalogue and flip through it regularly and you know,.....that new catalogue smell and all!:thumbsup:


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## tobrien

can't wait


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## brianna

I still say 4th quarter. My guess is November 2012.


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## tobrien

brianna said:


> I still say 4th quarter. My guess is November 2012.



just our luck you're probably right. something will get it pushed back i bet


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## John_Galt

chnzwh said:


> It's already in stock?
> 
> http://www.ondutygear.com/control/product/~product_id=SF-EB1-BACKUP



It looks like the head is larger in diameter, or at least does not slim back down from its largest outer diameter. PErhaps they're using a larger diameter TIR to focus [likely XP-G] LED to a similar beam as the older TIR and XR-E combo?


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## LightWalker

It looks very slippery, like Fenix use to be.


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## Federal LG

~150 dollars is a fair (and better) price to me!

Can´t wait to get one!


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## brianna

Surefire does irritate me a bit. This light first came out in 2008. It was 80 lumen's. Then they come out with the so called 110 lumen version. My two 80 lumen lights were just as bright as the new 110 lumen model. So back in 2008 I believe they all were 110 lumen no matter the packaging. 

Four years later (2012) and possibly in November, they will come out with a 200 lumen model. Wow about time this model gets a more updated emitter!!! With the military wars coming to a end, they will no longer be able to lie stagnant for so long. This company will need to be more progressive or it will likely end up folding just like so many other American companies did. Remember Carrier air conditioning, Oneida flatware, Syracuse china, New Process gear. These were major companies only 50 miles from my home. The future of Surefire will not be bright if they keep this slow development pace up. The quality is there, but old fashioned emitters will not make them a force to be reckoned with in the future.


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## John_Galt

brianna said:


> Surefire does irritate me a bit. This light first came out in 2008. It was 80 lumen's. Then they come out with the so called 110 lumen version. My two 80 lumen lights were just as bright as the new 110 lumen model. So back in 2008 I believe they all were 110 lumen no matter the packaging.
> 
> Four years later (2012) and possibly in November, they will come out with a 200 lumen model. Wow about time this model gets a more updated emitter!!! With the military wars coming to a end, they will no longer be able to lie stagnant for so long. This company will need to be more progressive or it will likely end up folding just like so many other American companies did. Remember Carrier air conditioning, Oneida flatware, Syracuse china, New Process gear. These were major companies only 50 miles from my home. The future of Surefire will not be bright if they keep this slow development pace up. The quality is there, but old fashioned emitters will not make them a force to be reckoned with in the future.




Point by point:
- the jump from 80 lumens, to 110 lumens, especially given the same beam pattern, is not that visible to the naked eye. Generally speaking, it requires a quadrupling in output [with the same beam pattern] to appear twice as bright. Surefire also has traditionally under-rated their light outputs, so while the 110 lumen models may put out 110-120 lumens, the 80 lumen models may put out 80 + as well.

-Surefire's largest customer is the military, followed by law enforcement. We flashlight enthusiasts are a small, tightly knit group. But just because there are small companies that cater to our wishes, doesn't mean bigger ones will [Surefire]. We are, realistically, not their target audience. Advances in technology will be slowly adapted and adopted. And the XR-E is NOT an outdated emitter, just because it is a few years old. It is still an extremely durable, quite efficient LED platform that combines physical robustness with excellent [near unmatched] surface brightness, which is extremely important for small flashlights.


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## brianna

I used a photography light meter in a ceiling bounce test. While not the most accurate way to measure, the 80 lumen model put out marginally more light then each of the 110 lumen models. While on the subject the Titan t1a should be putting out 200 lumen's. 100 lumen's is pretty sad. To me this is a good example of why Surefire needs to step up their game if they are to remain a thriving company in the future. Law enforcement is only going to purchase so many lights. The military most likely will cut back. This leaves the public sector. I want Surefire to do well, but they will need to implement new technology faster if they are to remain in the game. This was a major factor as to why the above companies I listed failed. They were too smug to listen, and ultimately it was their downfall.


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## Sean

So the only useful light is a really bright one? 200 lumens from a single cell light like the T1A is just too much light for most of my uses. EB1 will fill this gap though. I would rather have a level of light that's not going to blind me at close range. Just a few years ago we had 2 cell E2e's putting out 60 lumens. Now we have 200+ lumen E2DL and a 500 lumen Fury but some people are just never happy. I'm pretty happy with Surefire's offerings because I'm not looking for brighter and brighter. I'm looking for useful and reliable. The great thing about the EB1 will be the ability to program it to your liking. I would leave the low the same and bump the high from 200 down to something under 100 lumens. 200 Lumens is just overkill for what I use a light for most of the time. But everyone is different.


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## Robin24k

Exactly, compromises are key. Enthusiasts will always have different demands that don't coincide with the rest of the market, so major companies usually rarely get much attention from enthusiasts (this is true of many hobbies, not just flashlights). You simply cannot get more output without sacrificing something, whether it be runtime, cost, thermal constraints, surface brightness, or something else, and you can't speed up the product development cycle without compromising quality and reliability.



brianna said:


> I used a photography light meter in a ceiling bounce test. While not the most accurate way to measure, the 80 lumen model put out marginally more light then each of the 110 lumen models. While on the subject the Titan t1a should be putting out 200 lumen's. 100 lumen's is pretty sad. To me this is a good example of why Surefire needs to step up their game if they are to remain a thriving company in the future. Law enforcement is only going to purchase so many lights. The military most likely will cut back. This leaves the public sector. I want Surefire to do well, but they will need to implement new technology faster if they are to remain in the game. This was a major factor as to why the above companies I listed failed. They were too smug to listen, and ultimately it was their downfall.


It's not a significant difference between 80 lumens and 110 lumens, and you probably won't be able to see any difference at all. Even 100 lumens to 200 lumens is not as impressive as it seems due to non-linear brightness perception (try it with a multi-mode light that has 100% and 50%, 100% won't appear twice as bright as 50%).

R&D takes time, as does T&E (testing and evaluation), which is why SureFire (and the like) do not release products as quickly as small companies that cater to the enthusiast market. This enthusiast market, which is not easy to please, only makes up a small percentage of the public sector, and no major company is going to put their reputation at stake to push out products that are not fully tested.


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## Viking

brianna said:


> Law enforcement is only going to purchase so many lights. The military most likely will cut back. This leaves the public sector. I want Surefire to do well, but they will need to implement new technology faster if they are to remain in the game.



Military and Law enforcement are not the only ones who relies on high reliability.
Many companies and workers does as well.
The highest possible lumens numbers isn't surefires game , reliability is. 

And in that game I don't think many flashlight companies can match them , if any.

There is more to reliability/quality than a hard-grade aluminum body , great looking machinery etc. 
What about the internals , engineering etc. All the things you don't see.

I learned this the hard way. I use a worklight every day at work. And until now have all brands , except surefire failed me.


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## brianna

Quality and reliability is what is most important to me as well. I just don't think it should have taken the E1B new model EB1 four years to hit 200 lumen's. Also for the person that thinks 200 lumen's for the T1A is too much. Did you forget about the wonderful UI? Dial the brightness you need. Since the T1A is almost as long and heavy as the current E1B, 200 lumen's would make up for the size and weight of this so called key chain light. As I would like to call it a pocket paper weight. Plenty of weight for heat seeking 200 lumen's on the T1A. Most likely it will take 4 more years for this model to hit 200 lumen's. Quality and reliability is the most important factor. It is just that it makes me sad to hear people wanting to mod a new Surefire because the emitter is so out of date. Nothing should need to be done for a new light. We may be enthusiasts, but even the general public can appreciate a quality up to date product.

HDS has been at the 200 lumen mark for a while now. I Sort of use this as a quality bench mark. I agree it should not be a lumen game but quality and reliability comes first. If HDS can do 200 lumen's with quality, durability and reliability, then there is no reason Surefire should have lagged behind for so long.


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## Robin24k

It took four years for the Backup to reach 200 lumens because increasing that wasn't the goal (if you notice, runtime is unchanged). It's possible to push the XR-E to 200 lumens, but it would come at the expense of runtime, so they waited for more efficient emitters instead.


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## Bello

The eb1 is a lil bigger then e1b correct?


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## radioactive_man

Is there any (reliable) news on the release date for the EB1?


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## Viking

Robin24k said:


> It took four years for the Backup to reach 200 lumens because increasing that wasn't the goal (if you notice, runtime is unchanged). It's possible to push the XR-E to 200 lumens, but it would come at the expense of runtime, so they waited for more efficient emitters instead.



Personally I applaud that decision.
Long runtime is very important to me , much more than higher lumens.
Thats because I use my flashlight as a worklight at work ( 8 hours shift ).


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## Glock 22

If you get one for review can you post us some beamshots and some actual pics of the EB1 in this thread that way we'll know what kind of beam profile, and size it really is?




Robin24k said:


> At the moment, yes the EB1 is scheduled to be available in July. If all goes as planned, SureFire will start shipping them out in late June and I should get one to review before July.
> 
> http://www.led-resource.com/upcoming-led-products/
> 
> You can keep an eye on that page, as I will be updating it as I get new information.


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## Robin24k

Sure, I also have an E2L AA that I can compare it to as well.


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## Glock 22

Awesome. I would really appreciate it alot. Thanks. :thumbsup:


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## brianna

I have a little inside info about this light. I can not say how I know or where this came from. Target date for this light is November 2012. This light is not vaporware. If it does not come out in 2012, expect it no later then the third month of 2013. They are really shooting to have this light available before 2013. The reason for any hold up or delay past November would be caused by problems with the led not meeting certain standards Surefire requires. Or sufficient quantities. The light will be ready for production as soon as the LED batch for this product is approved.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Robin24k said:


> Sure, I also have an E2L AA that I can compare it to as well.



Also the E1B as well?


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## Robin24k

Nope, but I figure that the optic in it should be the same as the E2L AA, right?


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## Blindasabat

It appears the optics in the new E series are slightly larger than the previous/current generation. The bezels are listed as 1.1" (IIRC) compared to the current ones at 1.0"


Robin24k said:


> Nope, but I figure that the optic in it should be the same as the E2L AA, right?


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## Robin24k

Sorry, I meant the optics between the E1B and E2L AA. Those are identical, right?


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## Dr. Strangelove

Robin24k said:


> Sorry, I meant the optics between the E1B and E2L AA. Those are identical, right?


You know, I never did a close comparison between my E1B and my E2L AA, and I just sold the AA last weekend. I think they were pretty close in beam shape but the E1B had a slightly brighter hotspot and slightly longer throw. And I do mean slightly. But again, I never did a close comparison because in my mind they have two different purposes, one as an EDC and the other as a general purpose light.

I think that many people who already own an E1B would like to know how it stacks up against the EB1 in an apples to apples comparison. I’ve been sitting here trying to type up a list of items I would like to see compared but I had to delete it because I realized that it was so subjective that only I can answer those questions. But I would still like to see beamshots and runtimes compared…


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## Glock 22

Robin24k said:


> At the moment, yes the EB1 is scheduled to be available in July. If all goes as planned, SureFire will start shipping them out in late June and I should get one to review before July.
> QUOTE]
> 
> :thinking:
> It's late June, are you still on schedule to get one for review or has the plans changed?


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## Robin24k

Several people have recently left SureFire's marketing team, including my contact, so it's taking a little while to get new info. However, samples for us have been confirmed, but the current release target is late July.


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## Glock 22

brianna said:


> This light is scheduled for a 4th quarter release 2012.



Dead on. I just saw on ODG website that the release date has been pushed back to the forth quarter. So it looks like around Christmas time. Oh Well.:shrug:


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## Federal LG

Last week I received a SF official e-mail about E1B sale. Price is down! Maybe they did that to end their stock...

But December no, please... I can´t wait until there!


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## AZPops

Aside from the LX2 tail cap on the EB1. Find a used E1b or if you already have one. Send it to Wayne to install a low/high with 3 second memory driver (_I think Wayne said there's also one without a memory as well if you prefer that UI_), but you'll have to use RCR rechargeable batteries.

When Wayne's done with it, and the light arrives. Put your back to a wall, brace yourself, then click the little light on!

Seriously, it's output is presently extremely close to the LX2. When using the E1b with the new driver and RCR's next to the Fury. It holds it's own, I mean aside from the two different beam patterns, it's hard to tell the difference in throw!


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## Cole07

I just recieved my e1b and I love it, but once the eb1 hits I will be replacing my e1b as long as the output is significantly higher. Gotta love Surefire reliabilty. Thats why this e1b is my new edc, that and the relatively good throw out of a single cr123 light.


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## Federal LG

Any news about it´s release?

I´m asking because I´ll be in NYC next month and I would love to buy one EB1.

If not, probably I´ll gonna take one LX2...

EDIT:

Well, well, I just found this at BHPhoto website:

*SureFire EB1 Backup 200 lumens (Silver)*



1.1" Bezel 
5 / 200 Lumens 
Compact Dual-Output LED 
Mil-Spec Hard-Anodized Aluminum 
Two-Way Carry Clip 
Battery Included 
Made in the USA 
 

B&H # SUEB1CASL 
Mfr # EB1C-A-SL 
 
*New item, not available yet 
Expected availability: July 30 2012 *


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## RobertM

Robin24k said:


> Several people have recently left SureFire's marketing team, including my contact, so it's taking a little while to get new info. However, samples for us have been confirmed, but the current release target is late July.


Any new release date info?


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## radioactive_man

Yeah, any news on the LX1 ... ehrm ... EB1? (sorry, I get confused)


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## radioactive_man

The EB1 will be released in the fourth quarter of 2012 according to

http://www.ondutygear.com/control/p...p://www.ondutygear.com/?ss2query=surefire+eb1

Which probably means, that even Surefire hasn't a clue when it's going to be released.


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## tonywalker23

Surefire posted on their twitter at https://mobile.twitter.com/surefirellc advertising the e1b. Maybe trying to clear out stock before the eb1. Maybe we're close?


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## Robin24k

EB1 is currently targeted for a late August release at this point...


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## tonkem

Anyone know how the light will be programable? thru software on a pc, I would assume?


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## RobertM

Robin24k said:


> EB1 is currently targeted for a late August release at this point...


August of *2012,* correct? 


All kidding aside, thanks for the update.


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## tonywalker23

i cant remember if i read it here or in the sf 2012 catalog but it sounded like there will be a thingamajig that plugs in to the computer (hopefully also a mac) via usb. you place the led head down facing the thing and it programs it that way somehow. i may be wrong but i think i read that somewhere. i hope you can also make it low/high rather than the normal high/low. i want to make it come on 'moonlight/1 lumen/whatever is lowest' first then come on the max last.



tonkem said:


> Anyone know how the light will be programable? thru software on a pc, I would assume?


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## 2000xlt

wow, post has been going on since 2/8/12,,hope we hear more info sometime soon


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## brianna

The Surefire EB1 is scheduled for a 4th quarter release. Production is to be started in November. It should be available mid to late November. Run time is not confirmed yet, but 200 lumens for production has been confirmed. At this time everything is a go for the new EB1.


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## funzel

Today a german flashlight dealer listed the EB1 for october 15th 2012 @ 296 € (378 US$)! :thinking: 
I think this is a "do-not-order-now" price.
What do you think?


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## John_Galt

funzel said:


> Today a german flashlight dealer listed the EB1 for october 15th 2012 @ 296 € (378 US$)! :thinking:
> I think this is a "do-not-order-now" price.
> What do you think?



I think Europeans are getting the shaft when it comes to imports due to their high tariffs. For such a price has to include all the taxation. Surefire knows they couldn't charge that much and get away with it...


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## Flashlight Dave

brianna said:


> The Surefire EB1 is scheduled for a 4th quarter release. Production is to be started in November. It should be available mid to late November. Run time is not confirmed yet, but 200 lumens for production has been confirmed. At this time everything is a go for the new EB1.



Do we know if the two stage tail cap like the L1 is still going to be an option???


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## brianna

The information I gave on the EB1 is all I know.


----------



## BigBluefish

Let us hope the EB1 does not join the lamented LX1 among those "things that were not to be."


----------



## HighlanderNorth

Wow! Of these 2 lights that cost about the same, which would you rather have? This light, the Surefire EB1 200 Lumen backup flashlight, or the HDS Clicky/Rotary?
[h=2]To me, its a no-brainer.[/h]


----------



## somnambulated

brianna said:


> Quality and reliability is what is most important to me as well. I just don't think it should have taken the E1B new model EB1 four years to hit 200 lumen's. Also for the person that thinks 200 lumen's for the T1A is too much. Did you forget about the wonderful UI? Dial the brightness you need. Since the T1A is almost as long and heavy as the current E1B, 200 lumen's would make up for the size and weight of this so called key chain light. As I would like to call it a pocket paper weight. Plenty of weight for heat seeking 200 lumen's on the T1A. Most likely it will take 4 more years for this model to hit 200 lumen's. Quality and reliability is the most important factor. It is just that it makes me sad to hear people wanting to mod a new Surefire because the emitter is so out of date. Nothing should need to be done for a new light. We may be enthusiasts, but even the general public can appreciate a quality up to date product.
> 
> HDS has been at the 200 lumen mark for a while now. I Sort of use this as a quality bench mark. I agree it should not be a lumen game but quality and reliability comes first. If HDS can do 200 lumen's with quality, durability and reliability, then there is no reason Surefire should have lagged behind for so long.



Yes there is. Their profit margins get wider over time, because people will still buy their outdated emitters, and defend Surefire for selling an outdated product.

You know, as if swapping an outdated Cree emitter for a newer Cree emitter on the same single-output board would affect reliability.


----------



## 2000xlt

I don't have the later light but the E1B i do have, and its a great light i added the e2d TC and the TIR is great this is one thing that made me real glad i bought it,,Granted i know of surefire quality, the cost for a small light was quickly justified after i received it


HighlanderNorth said:


> Wow! Of these 2 lights that cost about the same, which would you rather have? This light, the Surefire EB1 200 Lumen backup flashlight, or the HDS Clicky/Rotary?
> [h=2]To me, its a no-brainer.[/h]


----------



## Robin24k

somnambulated said:


> You know, as if swapping an outdated Cree emitter for a newer Cree emitter on the same single-output board would affect reliability.


It will change the beam pattern, which could require more R&D to redesign the optic (or even the entire bezel), and will alter the product lifecycle. In other words, it's not as simple as just substituting a part on the assembly line. How are they going to discontinue the old version and introduce the new one, and how much will that cost?


----------



## fresh eddie fresh

HighlanderNorth said:


> Wow! Of these 2 lights that cost about the same, which would you rather have? This light, the Surefire EB1 200 Lumen backup flashlight, or the HDS Clicky/Rotary?
> *To me, its a no-brainer.*



Me too... all I need is a low, a high and the ability to use it right out of the box without having to read a manual.



In actuality, I will probably stick with the SF Backups I already have. 200 lumens would be nice, but probably overkill for what I use mine for on an everyday basis. I'm looking forward to the new ones coming out, so I can buy more of the "outdated" ones on clearance.


----------



## fresh eddie fresh

Sorry... double post.


----------



## kyhunter1

The EB1 does not interest me as much as it did a while back. I have a fix for that niche. E1B body/tailcap with a VME head and a Malkoff M31N. 200+ lumens OTF, with a superb beam, and a nice neutral tint. It will be hard to improve over that. If the EB1 ever comes to fruition, I will probably end up buying one, but Im not holding my breath....


----------



## jamesmtl514

HighlanderNorth said:


> Wow! Of these 2 lights that cost about the same, which would you rather have? This light, the Surefire EB1 200 Lumen backup flashlight, or the HDS Clicky/Rotary?
> [h=2]To me, its a no-brainer.[/h]



You're absolutely right. Surefire, without a doubt. No brainer indeed.

I've owned about 30 of their excellent products and will continue to support them.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

jamesmtl514 said:


> You're absolutely right. Surefire, without a doubt. No brainer indeed.
> 
> I've owned about 30 of their excellent products and will continue to support them.



Here too. I replaced my NovaTac 120E with a E1B. Got tired of the NovaTac UI.


----------



## Brasso

Like the LX1, we want it. So they will never make it.


----------



## Incoherent

Ok, here's the official release date as of now. October 12, 2012. Of course, they might change it again. The 200 lumen EB1 will be available in 3 colors; Black, Silver and Tan. And 2 versions; Click Switch (EB1C) and Tactical Switch (EB1T). Low mode is 5 lumens: High is 200 lumens.

New LX2 Release date (Tentative of course!) is December 31, 2012 (Is this a joke? But I'm just quoting..). There are 3 versions. LX2C-A Click Switch 15/250 lumens; LX2T-A Tactical Switch 15/250 lumens and LX2TU-A Tactical Switch 15/500 lumens.


----------



## 270winchester

Incoherent said:


> Ok, here's the official release date as of now. October 12, 2012. Of course, they might change it again. The 200 lumen EB1 will be available in 3 colors; Black, Silver and Tan. And 2 versions; Click Switch (EB1C) and Tactical Switch (EB1T). Low mode is 5 lumens: High is 200 lumens.
> 
> New LX2 Release date (Tentative of course!) is December 31, 2012 (Is this a joke? But I'm just quoting..). There are 3 versions. LX2C-A Click Switch 15/250 lumens; LX2T-A Tactical Switch 15/250 lumens and LX2TU-A Tactical Switch 15/500 lumens.



helluva first post for a long time lurker...:wave:

The Surefires still got me interest as the last hold out using TIR optics. Seems like Malkoff has abandoned that route. Whenever you feel like it, Surefire.


----------



## 880arm

Incoherent said:


> Ok, here's the official release date as of now. October 12, 2012. Of course, they might change it again. The 200 lumen EB1 will be available in 3 colors; Black, Silver and Tan. And 2 versions; Click Switch (EB1C) and Tactical Switch (EB1T). Low mode is 5 lumens: High is 200 lumens.
> 
> New LX2 Release date (Tentative of course!) is December 31, 2012 (Is this a joke? But I'm just quoting..). There are 3 versions. LX2C-A Click Switch 15/250 lumens; LX2T-A Tactical Switch 15/250 lumens and LX2TU-A Tactical Switch 15/500 lumens.



:welcome: and thanks for posting.

I have been wishing for an E-series Surefire in factory tan color but I never really considered the E1B/EB1 as a candidate. Hope to see these available soon!


----------



## 2000xlt

5 days to go


----------



## Viking

Actually, I am interested in all three models.
I can't decide if I should buy the new LX2 , LX2 ultra or EB1.


----------



## Glock 22

Don't get your hopes up. I just called Surefire and they said it's projected Mid November. Was'nt that about the time last year when the Fury was released?


----------



## fresh eddie fresh

GLOCK 22 said:


> Don't get your hopes up. I just called Surefire and they said it's projected Mid November. Was'nt that about the time last year when the Fury was released?



The Fury just seemed to pop up out of nowhere, if I recall!


----------



## CarpentryHero

I don't know that I'd pick one over the other, I have the Surefire L1, A2L,A2 and the E1b. I also have four hds. What I like in the Surefire's is there simplicity, what I like about hds is the programmability. What I like about both is there solid construction. 

I look forward to seeing if the hotspot is as tight on the eb1 as the e1b. If it is it'll be an awesome addition.
i hope that it comes out before Christmas, 7 months have passed and its still not on the shelves.


----------



## BenChiew

The wait continues......


----------



## Robin24k

As of right now, it's expected to release in November if everything goes as planned...


----------



## 270winchester

Robin24k said:


> As of right now, it's expected to release in November if everything goes as planned...



In other words no hard release date.

It's okay, my car can always use thicker sway bars.


----------



## Robin24k

It was given to me by marketing, but even then, past experience tells me it's not firm until I get a tracking number for the sample...


----------



## Glock 22

Robin24k said:


> It was given to me by marketing, but even then, past experience tells me it's not firm until I get a tracking number for the sample...



When you get one for review let us know.


----------



## N/Apower

somnambulated said:


> Yes there is. Their profit margins get wider over time, because people will still buy their outdated emitters, and defend Surefire for selling an outdated product.
> 
> You know, as if swapping an outdated Cree emitter for a newer Cree emitter on the same single-output board would affect reliability.



For certain uses, surefire still dominates. I have tried tons of p60 drop ins in vme and other adapter heads and still I run surefire kx2c on it. I have to find anything all around better as a weapon light when it comes to throw/hotspot size and runtime.


----------



## djdawg

New here ...... Theres so much to learn , I like SureFire but it seems theres other brands better that Ive never even heard of (HDS)?
I have about 12 SF,s and thought they were the cats azz , now Iam not so sure .........I,ll still get a EB-1 just because its there .....LOL


----------



## DrGadgetstein

djdawg said:


> New here ...... Theres so much to learn , I like SureFire but it seems theres other brands better that Ive never even heard of (HDS)?
> I have about 12 SF,s and thought they were the cats azz , now Iam not so sure .........I,ll still get a EB-1 just because its there .....LOL



I couldn't agree more. I stumbled into this forum when I started looking for a new pocket flashlight. This has been an eye opener for sure. I started by preordering two Surefire EB1 and the existing 90 lumen little T1A Titan. Then I stumbled into the HDS line and I've ordered a rotary. Should be here in 8 weeks I was told. Now I've got my eye on those titaniums and Nichia LED lights in high CRI. I hope I said all that properly. 

I'll keep watching this post for any updates and I'll be sure to let everyone know when my EB1 ships.


----------



## skyfire

DrGadgetstein said:


> I couldn't agree more. I stumbled into this forum when I started looking for a new pocket flashlight. This has been an eye opener for sure. I started by preordering two Surefire EB1 and the existing 90 lumen little T1A Titan. Then I stumbled into the HDS line and I've ordered a rotary. Should be here in 8 weeks I was told. Now I've got my eye on those titaniums and Nichia LED lights in high CRI. I hope I said all that properly.
> 
> I'll keep watching this post for any updates and I'll be sure to let everyone know when my EB1 ships.



sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it seems some folks that ordered a HDS in january are still waiting. im sure theres also a huge backlog. 
im actually surprised you were told 8 weeks. thats just a blatant lie in my opinion.
i have very high regards for HDS lights, but ive given up on obtaining a rotary... but with all the frustrations, i assume Henry of HDS is suffering the worst of it.
there are a couple of HDS threads that can keep you updated and informed.

apologizes to getting off topic,
the EB1 dual-stage momentary will be very hard for me to resist... since i do very much love my surefire L1s. 
itll be very interesing how the tailcap threads are. will it be E-series compatible dual-stage momentary? and the circuitry for both the dual stage momentary, and 2-mode clicky will be different.


----------



## fresh eddie fresh

It looks like the clicky will be perfect for people who Lego'ed their Backups with Scout Light tailcaps!

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/10/24/ausa-surefire/


----------



## IMightBeWrong

I'm still very happy with my E1B Backup. It's blown away every other light I've carried. I now accompany it with a small AAA light for everyday lighting uses rather than going straight for the brightest output on my person, though. But when I'm out and about at night and it's dark, the E1B is always handy. It's already kept me safe multiple times as well - finding a rattlesnake out at night before stepping on it to find it the hard way for example. I've also destroyed so many other lights in such little time that SureFire has made me a pretty firm believer. I'm willing to wait for the new light as long as it takes. It's not like my E1B is outdated anyway - this thing throws a beam further than a lot of 200+ lm lights I've had from competitors building in China.


----------



## Fubs

I've been waiting on the EB1 for months since I've learned about it and I've been looking for an EDC light that is easy on the pants, bright, has good throw. Almost twice a week I would visit this thread, do a google search, look it up on youtube, and look at the surefire website. Amazon has an EB1 clicky listed when you search for it.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007S0L4FK/?tag=cpf0b6-20

The page says it's being sold by OpticsPlanet and their page for the EB1 is one of the top few results on google.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/surefir...plusbox-beta&gclid=CKXC1bO2nbMCFcN_QgodvlIApQ

I checked surefire's main site but I haven't done any deep digging, the EB1 isn't on surefire's website. Can anyone else confirm this? Sorry if i'm not supposed to post outside links, I don't come by here often.


----------



## 880arm

As you said, it shows up on the retail site but it still shows estimated ship time of 15-25 days - same as it has shown for the past several weeks. I'm sure you could order one today but I think it's still up in the air as to when they will actually be available and shipping.

I'm waiting for these to come out myself. I hope it's soon.


----------



## Brasso

You could google purple polka-dot penguins and it would come up on OpticsPlanet website. But they never have what you want in stock.


----------



## Robin24k

It's latest release date is 11/15, according to SureFire marketing. When the date gets closer, I'll check with them and see if it's still on track.


----------



## Glock 22




----------



## Sean

Will it make it this month?


----------



## Lucky Duck

This year?


----------



## Flashlight Dave

We are waiting Surefire!!


----------



## led colin

looking to get a good light how do they compare to a tiablo a10


----------



## Brasso

If all you're looking for is brightness the Tiablo will win. In all other categories, the Surefire makes the Tiablo a toy.


----------



## fresh eddie fresh

led colin said:


> looking to get a good light how do they compare to a tiablo a10



I think the lights are in two completely different categories. The Backups tend to appeal to people looking for a more compact light... I carry one in my pocket to work everyday. If you were looking for a Surefire to compete with your Tiablo, you might want to look into one of the 6V models.


----------



## brianna

November 2012 release date is not going to happen. Confidential production problem has now changed the release date to Jan - March 2013.
They do intend to produce this light. I just hope they do it while we are still young. I find it extremely ridiculous that they come out with a 2012 catalogue and half their stuff as history shows is vaporware.


----------



## Lucky Duck

:tired: Oh well...Wake me when it's available!


----------



## Glock 22

Waiting on new Surefires is like watching grass grow.


----------



## tobrien

GLOCK 22 said:


> Waiting on new Surefires is like watching grass grow.



i never thought of it like that but you're 100% right haha


----------



## chnzwh

SureFire uploaded the updated version of EDC Gear Recommendation video on Youtube & it features the new EB1.


----------



## pinetree89

In the brief shot of the EB1 in that video, it looks like they dispensed with the TIR and put a reflector in it. 

Interesting...


----------



## Sean

It's probably a prototype. I saw one at the NRA show and it had a reflector in it.


----------



## Quiksilver

Heard a rumor that the release date has been pushed back to 2015 to deal with some tailswitch issues?


----------



## Coup de Grace

Quiksilver said:


> Heard a rumor that the release date has been pushed back to 2015 to deal with some tailswitch issues?


More than 2 years?


----------



## djdawg

Coup de Grace said:


> More than 2 years?


I certainly hope not ......... 2 yrs is a mighty long time to be waiting on a preorder .....LOL


----------



## Snareman

So since none of us can apparently have this light until the next millennium of Mayan calendar, does anyone else know of a similar function single CR123 forward clicky that you can't lock on by pressing it too hard? I was holding out for this, but who knows if I'll ever get one.


----------



## ginaz

are surefire and kershaw related in some way?


----------



## Xacto

Snareman said:


> So since none of us can apparently have this light until the next millennium of Mayan calendar, does anyone else know of a similar function single CR123 forward clicky that you can't lock on by pressing it too hard? I was holding out for this, but who knows if I'll ever get one.




Although still a forward clicky, I bought a Jetbeam BC10 to fill the role of my Surefire E1b Backup (which I just keep in the collection and not in the EDC rotation) The BC10 has a long way from momentary on to constant on.

Cheers
Thorsten


----------



## Coup de Grace

I really been looking forward to this flashlight. I like the simplicity of the of the functions. All other lights are similar have a lot of unnecessary modes unlike like this one.


----------



## brianna

NEWS FLASH

The Surefire EB1 is in production right now. Pre orders will be available in December!!! Dealers will have it in January 2013. The TIR optic is still being used. So stop with the reflector rumor.


----------



## Coup de Grace

I hope you are correct. 
Are your sources solid?


----------



## brianna

Check all my previous posts in this thread Coup de Grace you will find your solid answer.


----------



## Lucciola

brianna said:


> NEWS FLASH



Don't gimme FLASH NEWS, gimme da real FLASH LIGHT!  Surefire really should include instructions for autogenic training in their annual catalogue to prevent flashaholics from developing a serious psychosis while waiting for the latest SF marvel. :hairpull:

If this light should turn out to be vaporware I think I'll :drunk::buddies: or maybe or even


----------



## brianna

Don't worry it is in production right now so take a deep breathe. We are all very exited about this light. The only question left is how much is it going to cost? We will know that elusive answer in December. In January 2013 they will be in our hands


----------



## Lucciola

Thanks for the heads-up. I really wonder whether the lights components will be compatible with current E-series lights. In this case I'd get myself an E2L-AA outdoorsman as well so I'd have the choice to run the EB1 head on two eneloops.


----------



## Swedpat

Lucciola said:


> Thanks for the heads-up. I really wonder whether the lights components will be compatible with current E-series lights. In this case I'd get myself an E2L-AA outdoorsman as well so I'd have the choice to run the EB1 head on two eneloops.



That really would be a good reason to get the new EB1 200lm light! I have as well E1L and E2L AA Outdoorsmans, and while I guess the runtime of EB1 200lm will be shorter than the runtime of E2DL, using the head with 2AA would be a great alternative. Especially with E91 lithiums the runtime should be much better than with one CR123.


----------



## Coup de Grace

brianna said:


> Check all my previous posts in this thread Coup de Grace you will find your solid answer.


Relax.
A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. I don't know who you are, and I am not going to read your posts to find out.


----------



## 270winchester

brianna said:


> NEWS FLASH
> 
> The Surefire EB1 is in production right now. Pre orders will be available in December!!! Dealers will have it in January 2013. The TIR optic is still being used. So stop with the reflector rumor.


Did you see it being machined and electronics being potted in person? Or is it info from the same sources that don't have access to Microsoft Project?

I have a lot of SF lights and I don't trust any internet sources on their activities ever since the LX1 fiasco.


----------



## brianna

brianna said:


> I have a little inside info about this light. I can not say how I know or where this came from. Target date for this light is November 2012. This light is not vaporware. If it does not come out in 2012, expect it no later then the third month of 2013. They are really shooting to have this light available before 2013. The reason for any hold up or delay past November would be caused by problems with the led not meeting certain standards Surefire requires. Or sufficient quantities. The light will be ready for production as soon as the LED batch for this product is approved.



I posted this in June. Thread #70


----------



## bedazzLED

Just had a look at the EB1 and the accompanying video, on the info page on the Surefire website and it looks like a great light. Going to have to save my pennies for this little beauty at $220 though, and by the time it gets to Australian shores, it will probably be up to the $300 mark.

It certainly would make a great Christmas present!

Looks like a great addition to its bigger brother, the LX2.


----------



## Coup de Grace

brianna said:


> I posted this in June. Thread #70


So you want me to read your previous posts even though your previous posts then you quote one of your own previous posts that state you cannot offer source of info. 
The way Surefire has been historically, this just another case of seeing is believing.


----------



## 270winchester

Coup de Grace said:


> So you want me to read your previous posts even though your previous posts then you quote one of your own previous posts that state you cannot offer source of info.
> The way Surefire has been historically, this just another case of seeing is believing.



I am inclined to agree with this.

Nothing makes people more skeptical than a statement such as "the product that was advertised for this year which started 6 months ago will potentially be available sometime by the end of the year or early next year if everything goes well, but if not it's because LEDs don't pass their standards, but I cannot say how I know this. Now go read my previous posts". Jeebus. if getting 200 lumens out of a one cell light is too difficult then once every 6 months re-evaluate and reset your expectations, people will buy a 175 Lumen EB1 if it's well made and priced correctly, but advertising a specific output that relies on a future delivery of LEDs sounds like something Surefire needs to stop doing.

I'm sure this brianna person means well, but all this self-quoting is rather odd.


----------



## brianna

Wow, I was given confidential information and shared what I was allowed to say. And this is how I am treated, with disrespect and skepticism. In the future when I am given confidential information with bits and pieces to share, I will never say a word. I was allowed to give a update right now but I have decided to say nothing more now or in the future.


----------



## cland72

Then take your ball and go home. Nobody here will miss your vague info. 

Posted using Tapatalk on my HTC Evo


----------



## Quiksilver

My confidential sources tell me the EB1 will be starting first run of deliveries to dealers in Oct 2015 ... 









Kidding  but wouldn't be surprised. 

I'm sure it will be a great light, but TBH the aesthetics of the E1b appeal to me more than this newer counterpart.


----------



## Coup de Grace

brianna said:


> Wow, I was given confidential information and shared what I was allowed to say. And this is how I am treated, with disrespect and skepticism. In the future when I am given confidential information with bits and pieces to share, I will never say a word. I was allowed to give a update right now but I have decided to say nothing more now or in the future.


Seriously, if you are part of a forum (or any group of strangers for that matter), better be thicker skinned and take inquiries and criticisms more lightly. 
Anyway, moving on. 200 lumens is actually not so bad compared to other lights from what I have seen. Most CR123 x 1 lights of course have overly inflated output claims, but I addition to that I've noticed the heavy use of the XM-L LED. But some folks such as myself are looking for a more throwier, rather than flooding beam pattern like in fewer lights using the XP-G. 
My assumption is that the flashlight companies are marketing to those looks primarily at lumens and not at lux. But if you compare a light such as the EagleTac D25 using a XP-G2, they claim an OTF of 242 lumens. How accurate their estimate is, I'm not so sure. But compared to Surefire's usually conservative outputs, I wouldn't be surprised if this light, with the TIR out throws most CR123 x 1 lights on the market today.


----------



## 270winchester

brianna said:


> Wow, I was given *confidential* information and shared what I was allowed to say. And this is how I am treated, with disrespect and skepticism. In the future when I am given *confidential* information with bits and pieces to share, I will never say a word. I was allowed to give a update right now but I have decided to say nothing more now or in the future.



Time to find a better *confidential* source.


----------



## 270winchester

Coup de Grace said:


> I'm not so sure. But compared to Surefire's usually conservative outputs, I wouldn't be surprised if this light, with the TIR out throws most CR123 x 1 lights on the market today.



That's why I keep buying Surefires, their TIR.

You can diffuse a TIR beam, but you can't focus a reflector's beam


----------



## pinetree89

bedazzLED said:


> Going to have to save my pennies for this little beauty at $220 though.



Sheesh, didn't notice the price there. Hopefully by the time it gets to dealers we'll see it discounted off the MSRP like most SF's as of late.


----------



## AZPops

My confidential psycho analysts confidentially advised me not to place effort into something I have no control over. So when it’s available, it’s available! Why sweat over this kind of stuff?

Now in regards to the 500 lumen TIR LX2, that’s another story altogether! Btw (confidentially), .... in the mean time, why not send an E1b to Wayne to have him install a low'high with memory driver in it using an RCR. So of gun will throw quite a bit of light! 


Anonymous ...


----------



## pulstar

Stop with this nonsense and better check surefire.com!!! :devil:


----------



## Glock 22

pulstar said:


> Stop with this nonsense and better check surefire.com!!! :devil:



It's there on surefire's website. $220.00 Just type in on there website EB1 on there it is. Thanks for the tip.
:thumbsup:


----------



## Snareman

I just called SF because their website was going to let me purchase it and I didn't really think it was available. She had no idea the site was going to let me buy it. She looked into it and told me it was a glitch on their website and they were going to remove it. They said it should be available through dealers around the end of this week or beginning of next week and then directly through SF several months later. 

There you go. Directly from the horses mouth, for what that's worth.


----------



## Glock 22

If we do get it to release. I like the one with the tail shroud. I'm a big fan of a tail shroud anyway. I believe it's a nice upgradeable feature.


----------



## Snareman

GLOCK 22 said:


> If we do get it to release. I like the one with the tail shroud. I'm a big fan of a tail shroud anyway. I believe it's a nice upgradeable feature.



I think I'd prefer the non-shroud version just so I don't have to reach my thumb around it. And from what I'm reading - its the tactical switch without the shroud and clicky with the shroud is the way it comes?


----------



## davyro

AZPops said:


> My confidential psycho analysts confidentially advised me not to place effort into something I have no control over. So when it’s available, it’s available! Why sweat over this kind of stuff?
> 
> Now in regards to the 500 lumen TIR LX2, that’s another story altogether! Btw (confidentially), .... in the mean time, why not send an E1b to Wayne to have him install a low'high with memory driver in it using an RCR. So of gun will throw quite a bit of light!
> 
> 
> Anonymous ...



Thats exactly what i've done my friend,the one i want to get my hands on is the new DM2 Defender but i've heard on the grape vine that grapes grow on vines so i got my psycho analyst to analyse confidentiality of Surefire release dates of there
new models & i was told to listen on the grape vine so there you go,i haven't got a clue when any of the new models will be released for sale to the general public What i think i'll do is just go & ask Surefire........well that would be the sensible
thing to do wouldn't it?


----------



## davyro

I've been on the Surefire site & it says the EB1 is now available at Surefire dealers:twothumbs


----------



## Snareman

davyro said:


> I've been on the Surefire site & it says the EB1 is now available at Surefire dealers:twothumbs



They told me not yet when I called them earlier today


----------



## Coup de Grace

There. Enough with th silly rumors.
Now my question is, why is the "Tactical" model considered tactical, and the Clickie version (for a lack of a better term) non-tactical?
The only difference I can think of to make the tactical version more geared for LEO is being able to manually strobe with it.


----------



## wrencher

EBI with a L1 tail?_Tactical switch (no shroud) — Partially press tailcap pushbutton for momentary-on low output; press further for momentary-on high output. Release to turn light off. Twist tailcap clockwise for constant-on low then high output. The LX1? _


----------



## Snareman

Coup de Grace said:


> There. Enough with th silly rumors.
> Now my question is, why is the "Tactical" model considered tactical, and the Clickie version (for a lack of a better term) non-tactical?
> The only difference I can think of to make the tactical version more geared for LEO is being able to manually strobe with it.



The difference is - 

Tactical - you can press the button soft for dim or hard for bright, but no matter how hard you press the light won't stay on unless you turn the tail. That way if you are searching a room for instance understress you can't accidentally turn the light on and leave it on. 

Clicky - you can click it on like the old Backup.


----------



## Coup de Grace

Snareman said:


> The difference is -
> 
> Tactical - you can press the button soft for dim or hard for bright, but no matter how hard you press the light won't stay on unless you turn the tail. That way if you are searching a room for instance understress you can't accidentally turn the light on and leave it on.
> 
> Clicky - you can click it on like the old Backup.


When you explain it like that, it does make sense.
Thanks.


----------



## archimedes

skyfire said:


> ....
> itll be very interesing how the tailcap threads are. will it be E-series compatible dual-stage momentary? and the circuitry for both the dual stage momentary, and 2-mode clicky will be different.





Lucciola said:


> Thanks for the heads-up. I really wonder whether the lights components will be compatible with current E-series lights....



Would be curious to know this, if backward-compatibility is being maintained, as well.


----------



## SCD

Surefire was just waiting on delivery of the many thousands of neutral XP-G2's(that they knew would be available late in the 4th quarter) to start and finish the first run of LEXB1's

:shrug:


----------



## Flashlight Dave

Remember the fate of the LX2U? I hope this one don't go poof off the web site. oo:


----------



## tonywalker23

Surefire!?!? The day after my wife gets me my first luminox for my birthday y'all have to finally release this.


----------



## brianna

Flashlight Dave said:


> Remember the fate of the LX2U? I hope this one don't go poof off the web site. oo:



Bulk orders are being filled right now to the military. So It can't go POOF.


----------



## Glock 22

I've got one on pre-order. Surefire themselves said in a few weeks they will be shipping them out, but you all know how that is.


----------



## Brasso

Is there another light like the L1? I think not. It's perfect. They should have never discontinued it. Upgrade the emitter and driver. As nice as the EB1 will be, it's still no L1. Form and function just isn't there. From the perfect length to the generous knurling. The L1 still sits as King of all edc lights.


----------



## Coup de Grace

Brasso said:


> Is there another light like the L1? I think not. It's perfect. They should have never discontinued it. Upgrade the emitter and driver. As nice as the EB1 will be, it's still no L1. Form and function just isn't there. From the perfect length to the generous knurling. The L1 still sits as King of all edc lights.


I know the L1 was a different light in terms of length and knurling, but how does it differ in function? I owned one but don't exactly remember the UI on it.


----------



## brianna

I had the new EB1 in my hands today. Compared to the the E1B it is brighter, but not really very significantly brighter. I tested the light in a small bathroom so I never really got to compare the beam patterns of the two. I was just able to do a ceiling bounce test for the comparison. Then I had to give the light back.


----------



## Glock 22

brianna said:


> I had the new EB1 in my hands today. Compared to the the E1B it is brighter, but not really very significantly brighter. I tested the light in a small bathroom so I never really got to compare the beam patterns of the two. I was just able to do a ceiling bounce test for the comparison. Then I had to give the light back.




Does all the click type tailcaps come with the tail shroud?


----------



## brianna

Click type looks the same as the E1B. Tactical is the only one with the weird looking end.


----------



## Robin24k

brianna said:


> Click type looks the same as the E1B. Tactical is the only one with the weird looking end.


Website says otherwise...


----------



## brianna

My mistake click type has shroud at the end like the handle of a baseball bat. Also the button is flush with it. The tactical twist push type switch looks like the E1B. Also these switches are not compatable with the old E1B


----------



## Glock 22

Just what I was wanting to know. I like the sound of it even better with the tail shroud, that's just right up my alley. Thanks for the info.


----------



## Machete God

brianna said:


> ... Also these switches are not compatable with the old E1B


Swapping out the tail cap on the EB1 to replace with an E series tail cap or Z68 and using the new EB1 tail caps on the older E series lights is out of the question, then?


----------



## Up All Night

tonywalker23 said:


> Surefire!?!? The day after my wife gets me my first luminox for my birthday y'all have to finally release this.



Look at the bright side, now you don't need a flashlight to see what time it is!
I just picked up a new L1 that I'm running on an rcr, so I'm good for a while. I think, .............maybe!


----------



## 880arm

brianna said:


> . . . Also these switches are not compatable with the old E1B



This made me wonder . . . is it possible to load batteries from the tail? And if so, does this mean the head is non-removable?


----------



## Federal LG

880arm said:


> This made me wonder . . . is it possible to load batteries from the tail? And if so, does this mean the head is non-removable?



And I wonder... Could I get one tactical model, and a spare regular tailcap (shroud), and have both models in just one light? I mean, just changing the tailcap?


----------



## Glock 22

Federal LG said:


> And I wonder... Could I get one tactical model, and a spare regular tailcap (shroud), and have both models in just one light? I mean, just changing the tailcap?



Good Idea!


----------



## Brasso

Different tail switches. Won't work. The tactical switch has a resistor in it and different electronics in the head.

While they are both called EB1's, they are really two different lights. The tactical model is the replacement for the L1 or defunct LX1, it just looks the same as the other.


----------



## tonywalker23

Up All Night said:


> Look at the bright side, now you don't need a flashlight to see what time it is!
> I just picked up a new L1 that I'm running on an rcr, so I'm good for a while. I think, .............maybe!



Haha. That's true.


----------



## doctordun

I advanced ordered one a month ago and received this email after I inquired about when I will receive it:
*[FONT=&quot]Please be advised that the SUREFIRE EB1 BACKUP FLASHLIGHT-22mm SILVER you have on backorder is expected to arrive at our warehouse mid December. As soon as we receive it from the vendor/manufacturer we will promptly ship it to you. We apologize for this delay and for any inconvenience.[/FONT]*


----------



## brianna

880arm said:


> This made me wonder . . . is it possible to load batteries from the tail? And if so, does this mean the head is non-removable?



The head is removable just like the E1B. Can't load batteries from the tail.


----------



## Robin24k

I've got a sample of the EB1T on the way...should be here tomorrow or Monday. :thumbsup:


----------



## Snareman

Robin24k said:


> I've got a sample of the EB1T on the way...should be here tomorrow or Monday. :thumbsup:



from where? I haven't found anyone selling them yet


----------



## Robin24k

SureFire. Flyers were released today and can be found here:

http://www.led-resource.com/upcoming-led-products/


----------



## 880arm

brianna said:


> The head is removable just like the E1B. Can't load batteries from the tail.



Thanks. When you mentioned the tailcap wasn't compatible with the E1B it made me wonder if they glued the head on like they are doing on many of the other new lights, making it necessary to load from the tail.


----------



## Snareman

Robin24k said:


> SureFire. Flyers were released today and can be found here:
> 
> http://www.led-resource.com/upcoming-led-products/




Right, but what site did you order it from? When I talked to SFa few days ago they said that it would be available through dealers nowish but not through SF directly for several months


----------



## Robin24k

It's a sales sample from marketing.


----------



## Snareman

Robin24k said:


> It's a sales sample from marketing.



Oh, ok. I thought you'd bought one somewhere and I couldn't find anywhere that had them to buy


----------



## 880arm

Robin24k said:


> SureFire. Flyers were released today and can be found here:
> 
> http://www.led-resource.com/upcoming-led-products/



Interesting. The flyer states these are exempt from US export control. Have any other Surefire lights carried this exemption before?


----------



## chnzwh

I think only Hellfighter & lights with IR output are restricted for export...Correct me if I'm wrong.



880arm said:


> Interesting. The flyer states these are exempt from US export control. Have any other Surefire lights carried this exemption before?


----------



## 880arm

chnzwh said:


> I think only Hellfighter & lights with IR output are restricted for export...Correct me if I'm wrong.



That makes sense to me. I guess I was under the impression that all of them were restricted because of posts from international members saying they were difficult (or impossible) to obtain from US sellers. 

What I didn't think about was that Surefire could make that a retailer restriction without it being a US restriction.


----------



## tonywalker23

I recall someone talking about how their diffusers would no longer work. Fwiw, on the very bottom of those flyers it list f04, f05, f06 with a -A at the end so it appears surefire will have some accessories for it.


----------



## Glock 22

:thinking:Wonder if the LED is the new XP-G2?


----------



## BenChiew

880arm said:


> That makes sense to me. I guess I was under the impression that all of them were restricted because of posts from international members saying they were difficult (or impossible) to obtain from US sellers.
> 
> What I didn't think about was that Surefire could make that a retailer restriction without it being a US restriction.



You are right. 
The restriction imposed on US based dealers from exporting out of the US is due to the foreign official dealers protection. Official dealers in some foreign countries sells surefire at sometimes ridiculous prices. If US based dealers are allowed to send into those countries, then the local dealers will not be very happy. 
There you go, the restriction is not based on a military basis but based on a commercial one.


----------



## fresh eddie fresh

Brasso said:


> Different tail switches. Won't work. The tactical switch has a resistor in it and different electronics in the head.
> 
> While they are both called EB1's, they are really two different lights. The tactical model is the replacement for the L1 or defunct LX1, it just looks the same as the other.



+1, I'm thinking that if you put the clicky on the tactical model it will only come on high, which some people might like. Switching heads seems like it would be sort of like putting an LX2 head on an E2DL and vice versa. 

I'm very impressed they were able to do the tactical tail without adding too much length. It looks pretty comparable in size to the old model, slightly longer (not by much) and less of a taper at the business end of it. 

For some reason I am really excited about these being available in tan.... that being said, I'm still attached to my current Backups.


----------



## Coup de Grace

tonywalker23 said:


> I recall someone talking about how their diffusers would no longer work. Fwiw, on the very bottom of those flyers it list f04, f05, f06 with a -A at the end so it appears surefire will have some accessories for it.


Diameter of the new EB1 is a tad wider than the E1B, so probably doesn't fit, and of does it'll be snug.


----------



## Robin24k

It's here...it uses an XP-E.



​


----------



## tonywalker23

That's all, a picture? please upload a 60 minute youtube video review


----------



## Robin24k

Well, I've now got six lights waiting to be reviewed, so they're going to have to come one by one. 

EB1 will be first, hopefully ready after Thanksgiving. Guess what I'm going to be doing over that break...


----------



## BLUE LED

XP-R4 or maybe XP-E2 ?


----------



## Robin24k

It's green, so it can't be an XP-E2.


----------



## jssp78

Is it the yellow green that surefire is going after?


----------



## Up All Night

Robin24k said:


> It's green, so it can't be an XP-E2.



You're talking about the board.........right? Cuz I read that kinda quick and saw green and...........well, you know!


----------



## RedForest UK

I think he means the LED base, not the tint.


----------



## Robin24k

I haven't gotten much of a chance to use it yet, as runtime tests are in progress. However, based on the light coming out of the light box, it does seem to have a warmer tint. It's not yellow green though.



Up All Night said:


> You're talking about the board.........right? Cuz I read that kinda quick and saw green and...........well, you know!


Yes, sorry for the confusion...I was referring to the LED.


----------



## Robin24k

Runtime test...


----------



## Glock 22

Is there anyway we could get you to post a beamshot?


----------



## Robin24k

Why would I do something like that... 



​
There's more spill outside of the frame, so the beam is very wide.


----------



## Glock 22

Awesome, I like the idea of the beam is very wide, throw with spill, and I don't know about anyone else but I like the tint color as well. Thanks alot for the beamshot.:thumbsup:


----------



## gnlw

Robin24k: Thanks for the sneak-peek. By the way, is that run-time graph from Surefire, or one you did yourself? I wish the regulation was flatter with the primary.


----------



## gnlw

Oops. I should have read your posts better. The graph looks like it's yours. Thanks again for the info.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

gnlw said:


> Robin24k: I wish the regulation was flatter with the primary.



I would say what regulation? 

If it were any other brand I'd say it looks like the light is not in regulation in high on a CR123A.

Since this is a SF I'm sure it's a brilliant design to conserve battery life and maintain thermal stability by rapidly reducing brightness etc.

I'll let the more knowledgeable geniuses chime in about the buckwheat driver and so forth. It looks like the high setting draws more current than the primary battery can produce to maintain regulation, is this right?

Thanks for getting these runtime plots online so fast Robin. :thumbsup:


----------



## brianna

I only own Surefire, and do not think it is a brilliant design period. What regulation? I hope so much a mistake was made in that run-time plot.


----------



## 880arm

Robin24k said:


> Runtime test...



Unless it is starting off at 400 lumens that is scary bad on 1xCR123. I hope this is a defective light or a dud battery. It seems like I have been waiting for this light forever but if that's what the run time will look like, I guess I will wait for the next one. It almost looks like a 2xCR123 light being run on one cell.

Since it's for review purposes, why not pop a Li-ion in there?


----------



## Robin24k

Considering that this is a single cell light with boost circuitry, I'm not surprised by the results. I can't measure tailcap current on the tactical model, but the EB1 should be drawing more than 1A from the battery.



880arm said:


> Since it's for review purposes, why not pop a Li-ion in there?


Due to safety concerns, I don't use loose lithium-ion batteries.


----------



## djdawg

brianna said:


> I only own Surefire, and do not think it is a brilliant design period. What regulation? I hope so much a mistake was made in that run-time plot.



That is my thoughts too , doesnt look good at all.


----------



## Sean

Thanks for the pics & runtime tests!


----------



## doctordun

Man! And I have one on order. I hope the test was a fluke.


----------



## Robin24k

I don't understand why so many of you are surprised by the runtime graph. This is typical of a single-cell 123A light with high drain, except that the range of my graph makes it worse than it seems.

Take a look at similar lights here:



selfbuilt said:


>


----------



## Flashlight Dave

Forgive me for changing the subject but I was thinking of the fact that the EB1 has a similar shape to the E1B. For those of us who like the tactical version (which does not come with the lip on the tail cap) could we expect the light to slip out of our hands when we press the tail just like the slippery E1B? The old L1 had the same basic diameter for the entire length of the light with awesome knurling and gave no problems in use. From the looks of the EB1 it might not be very comfortable in the hand and not practical in use. 

Just a thought


----------



## Viking

Thanks a lot for the runtime tests :thumbsup:


----------



## Swedpat

Thanks Robin24K for runtime graphs. As I supposed the new 200lm EB1 light can't compete to 2CR123 E2DL. Would you like to do runtime graph with E2L AA body and 2AA NiMh/L91s?


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Robin24k said:


> I don't understand why so many of you are surprised by the runtime graph. This is typical of a single-cell 123A light with high drain, except that the range of my graph makes it worse than it seems.
> 
> Take a look at similar lights here:



Maybe your EB1 graph makes it look worse but the other lights appear to me to hold their output in regulation for a while before the ski slope drop off when they can no longer keep up.

The EB1 seems to roughly maintain its output for maybe ten minutes before an almost linear decline to 10 per cent with a long tail after that.

The other plots presented show that much better regulation is possible even with a single cell power supply. Is the EB1 direct drive in high and regulated in low perhaps? Is this a design flaw or, like the green LED tint touted in the 2012 SF catalog, claimed to be a feature?


----------



## Glock 22

Mine is pre-ordered thru opticsplanet, and I just got off the phone with them and they said, that they would have them instock December 17th.


----------



## Flashlight Dave

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Maybe your EB1 graph makes it look worse but the other lights appear to me to hold their output in regulation for a while before the ski slope drop off when they can no longer keep up.
> 
> *The EB1 seems to roughly maintain its output for maybe ten minutes before an almost linear decline to 10 per cent with a long tail after that.*
> 
> The other plots presented show that much better regulation is possible even with a single cell power supply. Is the EB1 direct drive in high and regulated in low perhaps? Is this a design flaw or, like the green LED tint touted in the 2012 SF catalog, claimed to be a feature?



I agree. It looks like the regulation sucks. I will have to think hard on whether I want this one. Seems like the regulation on the L1 which was no regulation at all had a better graph that the EB1.


----------



## Robin24k

Keep in mind that most of those other single-cell 123A lights use XP-G's or XM-L's, which are more efficient than the XP-E, so the EB1 will need to use more power to get equivalent output. I will try to check with SureFire about the runtime, but based on the LFP123A runtime, it looks like more than 1.2A from the battery.



Swedpat said:


> Thanks Robin24K for runtime graphs. As I supposed the new 200lm EB1 light can't compete to 2CR123 E2DL. Would you like to do runtime graph with E2L AA body and 2AA NiMh/L91s?


I don't have the E2L AA with me right now, but I can try it next month (if someone reminds me).


----------



## 880arm

Robin24k said:


> Keep in mind that most of those other single-cell 123A lights use XP-G's or XM-L's, which are more efficient than the XP-E, so the EB1 will need to use more power to get equivalent output. I will try to check with SureFire about the runtime, but based on the LFP123A runtime, it looks like more than 1.2A from the battery.



Thank you Robin for doing these tests and posting the results. I apologize if my earlier post came across as if I was trying to shoot the messenger. I had consumed too much liquid emotion amplifier last night.

To be honest, I am still a little disappointed in the apparent lack of regulation but the more I look at the chart, it does have me wondering whether we are seeing some kind of thermal protection in action. I would really be curious to see the relative output levels if the light were cycled on/off at 5-10 minute intervals. The truth is that I rarely use my E1B more than 5 minutes at a time on high.

Another thing to factor into the equation is that we don't know how the relative brightness values equate to output in lumens. If the 100% value at initial turn-on equates to 200 lumens then the 60% value at 45 minutes would mean the EB1 is only putting out around 120 lumens at that point. However I suspect (and hope) that somewhere between 80% and 90% on your chart actually equates to 200 lumens. If this is the case then the output does look a little better.


----------



## Robin24k

I would estimate the EB1 to be around 225-250 lumens, but that doesn't really say much about the runtime graph. However, I think you may be onto something. Those steps in the curve looks controlled, unlike direct drive, which would have a smooth line.


----------



## 880arm

Robin24k said:


> I would estimate the EB1 to be around 225-250 lumens, but that doesn't really say much about the runtime graph. However, I think you may be onto something. Those steps in the curve looks controlled, unlike direct drive, which would have a smooth line.



I'm just piggy-backing off of what Vox suggested. I would have expected there to be a noticeable step change if it were an electronic protection circuit kicking in but maybe it's just a resistor reacting to the heat. No matter what the case may be, it's nothing like the curve for an old E1B. where it stays above 90% for well over an hour.



Chao said:


> Runtime graph (high level):


----------



## Robin24k

It's an XR-E in the E1B, right? Since SureFire didn't go with a more efficient LED, the EB1 will use more power than the E1B to produce 200 lumens. Increased power consumption will result in less runtime and regulation...


----------



## 880arm

Robin24k said:


> It's an XR-E in the E1B, right? Since SureFire didn't go with a more efficient LED, the EB1 will use more power than the E1B to produce 200 lumens. Increased power consumption will result in less runtime and regulation...



I don't know enough about the different LED's to comment on how one compares to another but I can understand (and agree) that increased power consumption would result in less runtime. There is no arguing with the physics involved or the limitations of batteries and electronics.

My comments are related to the apparent lack of any sort of fairly stable output over time, even for as little as 30 minutes, like you have shown for the LFP123A battery. That doesn't mean it's a bad design or a bad light, it just doesn't match my preconceived notion of what it should look like which has developed as I lusted over this light for the past 8 months. Honestly, if the wait had gone on much longer I would have worked myself up to at least 1 or 2 hours of completely flat regulated runtime at 200 lumens 

Now that I have brought up the LFP's (and actually paid attention to that helpful plot on your graph!) it appears that thermal protection is not playing any sort of role as there is no major stepdown with the rechargeables until they are nearly depleted. I'm a little bit slow at picking up on things like that . . . must be a sign of my advancing age.

All that aside, thanks again for doing these tests and posting the results. Like I mentioned, I have been waiting for this light for a long time and I know I won't be able to resist getting one or two when they finally become available.


----------



## brianna

I can't believe I am saying this, but I actually think I am going to pass on this light and keep my old E1B. Looks like the older model stays a lot brighter for longer if I read the regulation chart correctly. This new model to me does not look like regulation at all but since the voltage stays the same for 90% of the battery life in a lithium battery I think this is what were are actually seeing. This is a sad day for me considering I lusted for this light for so long.


----------



## Coup de Grace

Maybe the light you have is a lemon.


----------



## djdawg

Surefires site says 200 LM for 1.3 hours
I always thought SF was known for there accuracy.


----------



## FPSRelic

djdawg said:


> Surefires site says 200 LM for 1.3 hours
> I always thought SF was known for there accuracy.



Not quite. Surefire's product page has this little footnote regarding the runtime:



> *Runtime (at highest setting for multiple-output flashlights) until output drops below 50 lumens


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Robin24k said:


> It's an XR-E in the E1B, right? Since SureFire didn't go with a more efficient LED, the EB1 will use more power than the E1B to produce 200 lumens. Increased power consumption will result in less runtime and regulation...



I realize that maybe we're expecting too much for a two mode light with only a $220 MSRP that is 'Made in America'. Is this yet another case of SF using 'proven', i.e. less than current, LED technology?

The XM-L wasn't exactly new when the SF Fury came out but that light was available quickly at what I would consider a competitive price point for a SF.

Has SF post-PK morphed into two design divisions, one that does simple low end lights and can quickly roll out products like the 6PX and the Fury, and a high end team that does fancy expensive lights that take forever to make it from the catalog to the marketplace?

Hopefully the EB1 will be able to stay in some sort of regulation at the 5 lumen level.

Remember the recent ill-fated Icon lights? They also had an output curve on high that dropped like a Coke machine after a few minutes. Since it was a PK design some argued that this was an innovative kind of regulation that we just didn't understand:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...A-Review-RUNTIMES-ANALYSIS-BEAMSHOTS-and-more!

As I observed on the Icon runtime charts:



> Whether or not you like this regulation pattern, you have to admit it is a pretty unique feat of engineering.





Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> I hope it stays unique.:thumbsdow You can certainly have a 'candle' mode in a well regulated light.
> 
> Is this some trick to pass a CE or FTC consumer marketing requirement for stating brightness and runtime in advertising? As someone else observed, when the light starts dimming after ten minutes, the non-CPF consumer would probably assume the battery didn't last too long. He might not know to cycle the power to restore full brightness.
> 
> Does the Rogue 2 AA light have a similar pattern of 'unique' regulation?
> 
> Can you imagine the ridicule this novel form of 'regulation' would endure here on CPF if it appeared on a non-PK light?
> 
> Usual disclaimers, JMHO, PK is a genius, Icon is not SF, no offense to the SF fanboys, etc., etc., etc.
> 
> And, thanks again for your work on the plots and review!



My thoughts about the regulation on the EB1 are similar. Was too much current pushed to the too small LED to reach the 200 lumen level already promised in the advertising?


----------



## Robin24k

I've ran the test again, and the behavior was pretty much the same. The light was very warm about 45 minutes into the test, so thermal constraints could have been a factor, but 45 minutes of runtime above 60% isn't too bad.


----------



## FPSRelic

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> I realize that maybe we're expecting too much for a two mode light with only a $220 MSRP that is 'Made in America'. Is this yet another case of SF using 'proven', i.e. less than current, LED technology?
> 
> The XM-L wasn't exactly new when the SF Fury came out but that light was available quickly at what I would consider a competitive price point for a SF.
> 
> Has SF post-PK morphed into two design divisions, one that does simple low end lights and can quickly roll out products like the 6PX and the Fury, and a high end team that does fancy expensive lights that take forever to make it from the catalog to the marketplace?



I for one, am not surprised that Surefire went to something like XP-E for their smaller lights as opposed to XM-L. Considering the size of the TIR optic used in their lights that do use the XM-L emitter (M3LT, M6 and Invictus) getting the nice throwy beam that people have come to expect from Surefire with an XM-L emitter from a TIR optic as small as it is on the EB1 is a big ask. 

Personally I'm interested in seeing Robin24K full review for 2 reasons. Firstly, I'm keen on seeing those short run output tests that were done on the mini maglite pro and I think the Icon lights, which confirmed that the drop in output we are seeing is a form of regulation, similar to that of the R1 and UNR, or the Mini Maglite Pro+. Secondly runtime is only part of the light. I'm keen to see how the LUX of this light compares to the older e1b or the L1.

With regards to the 6PX/G2X/P2X series lights, I tend to agree. My understanding is that they were built to compete with Chinese lights from Fenix and Foursevens. IMO they are still of a high quality, but just not that of the almost over engineered older models that ar ein their higer end lineup. The fact that they're getting their emitters upgraded quicker may be more down to the reflector vs TIR optic.


----------



## 880arm

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Remember the recent ill-fated Icon lights? They also had an output curve on high that dropped like a Coke machine after a few minutes. Since it was a PK design some argued that this was an innovative kind of regulation that we just didn't understand:



Thanks for sharing the link, I had not read that review. There do appear to be similarities between the EB1 and the ICON so perhaps you were correct when you said this is a "feature" on the lights.

If the output on the EB1 resets each time the light is turned on then this "feature" will have minimal effect on me since I normally use my E1B in short bursts. If this can be confirmed I will begin feeling better about the light.


----------



## Brasso

He's just being typically down on Surefire. He doesn't like them. He's one of the Chinese faithful that think they are just as good as Surefire. He will likely never depend on his light to save his life. Thus the fact that Chinese lights are held together by glue and thermal paste doesn't bother him as long as they have plenty of over driven, new leds, and disco modes.


----------



## Viking

880arm said:


> If the output on the EB1 resets each time the light is turned on then this "feature" will have minimal effect on me since I normally use my E1B in short bursts. If this can be confirmed I will begin feeling better about the light.




I don't think that's the reason.


Why can the flashlight hold the high output almost three times longer with LFP cells then.


----------



## Swedpat

Robin24k said:


> I don't have the E2L AA with me right now, but I can try it next month (if someone reminds me).



Thanks, I will do.


----------



## Robin24k

880arm said:


> Thanks for sharing the link, I had not read that review. There do appear to be similarities between the EB1 and the ICON so perhaps you were correct when you said this is a "feature" on the lights.
> 
> If the output on the EB1 resets each time the light is turned on then this "feature" will have minimal effect on me since I normally use my E1B in short bursts. If this can be confirmed I will begin feeling better about the light.


It's not a feature. If you let the battery rest, output will go back up.


----------



## gottawearshades

Thanks for all the early testing. 

I'm wondering what would happen if you did the test again and turned the light off and on every fifteen minutes or so.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Viking said:


> I don't think that's the reason.
> 
> Why can the flashlight hold the high output almost three times longer with LFP cells then.



I agree, looks to me like the LFP's can keep up with the current but the SF123A's can't.

And, wouldn't that would sorta argue against thermal issues being the sole reason for the steady decline on primaries since the LFP's would presumably run hotter initially from the graph?



Robin24k said:


> Keep in mind that most of those other single-cell 123A lights use XP-G's or XM-L's, which are more efficient than the XP-E, so the EB1 will need to use more power to get equivalent output.



Yep, I would have guessed that SF would use the XP-G but as FPSRelic says maybe the die size was too large for the TIR optic to give a good spot.



FPSRelic said:


> With regards to the 6PX/G2X/P2X series lights, I tend to agree. My understanding is that they were built to compete with Chinese lights from Fenix and Foursevens. IMO they are still of a high quality, but just not that of the almost over engineered older models that ar ein their higer end lineup. The fact that they're getting their emitters upgraded quicker may be more down to the reflector vs TIR optic.



I think you have a good point, it does indeed seem like the TIR lights take much longer to come out. I've got an early UB3T that took years to emerge as a derivative from some vaporware design that never was sold (was it the 'Optimus' perhaps?). I see the UB3T's optic has already been revised to give more spill, a good idea in my opinion.



880arm said:


> I'm just piggy-backing off of what Vox suggested. I would have expected there to be a noticeable step change if it were an electronic protection circuit kicking in but maybe it's just a resistor reacting to the heat. No matter what the case may be, it's nothing like the curve for an old E1B. where it stays above 90% for well over an hour.



I've bought several E1B's and given some of them to family members. Seems like the MSRP was $160, for $60 more I'd hope the EB1 would be an improvement.  Thanks for sharing Chao's runtime plot for comparison.


----------



## 880arm

Robin24k said:


> It's not a feature. If you let the battery rest, output will go back up.



Yes, if the decline is due entirely to battery sag. However, in the Selfbuilt review of the ICON light it seemed to recover instantly which seemed to indicate there was something other than (or in addition to) battery sag.


----------



## Robin24k

For the EB1, it's voltage sag rather than step-down regulation. I'm pretty confident about this due to the shape of the LFP123A runtime (since any step-down regulation should also affect LFP123A's), as well as the initial shape of the SF123A graph. There may be something going on after dropping below 60%, but I can only get about 100 lumens (which quickly decreases) from the depleted battery, so I think it's just an attempt to maintain regulation.

I'm going to put together another graph that should disprove any theories that my sample is defective.


----------



## 880arm

Robin24k said:


> For the EB1, it's voltage sag rather than step-down regulation. I'm pretty confident about this due to the shape of the LFP123A runtime (since any step-down regulation should also affect LFP123A's), as well as the initial shape of the SF123A graph. There may be something going on after dropping below 60%, but I can only get about 100 lumens (which quickly decreases) from the depleted battery, so I think it's just an attempt to maintain regulation.
> 
> I'm going to put together another graph that should disprove any theories that my sample is defective.



Thanks for all that you're doing. I wish I didn't sound so argumentative, especially since I know so little about this stuff. I think it's another case of my pre-conceived notions being confronted by reality :sigh:


----------



## Robin24k

880arm said:


> Thanks for all that you're doing. I wish I didn't sound so argumentative, especially since I know so little about this stuff. I think it's another case of my pre-conceived notions being confronted by reality :sigh:


No worries. I have a background in electrical engineering, so things that are obvious to me may not necessarily be obvious to others. It's better if you can come to the conclusion yourself, instead of having to believe a stranger's unsupported ramblings. 

Besides, the flattened runtime graph format that I use doesn't really help either...anyways, here we go:





In this graph, the vertical axis has not been flattened because ANSI FL1 icons aren't necessary. Here, we can see normalized lithium primary runtime graphs for three of SureFire's most recent lights that utilize boost circuitry.

Using rough estimates based on tailcap current, the XM-L needs 7.2W of power for 500 lumens, and the XP-E needs 3.5W of power for 200 lumens. Since the 123A battery carrier in the R1 and UNR puts the 123A's in parallel, the drain on each individual cell should be similar to the EB1.


----------



## brianna

I only own Surefire so this is not a bash. I am mad and frustrated to have waited 5 years to see Surefire come out with the EB1. This light is a inferior upgrade to the awesome E1B. Crap regulation, no real run time improvement, and my gosh at least they could have used a more recent emitter. 
So now I (or the rest of us) will have to wait another 5 years and hope the next model actually has flat regulation, and a significant lumen and run time improvement. If I was spending $50 for this light I would expect this. However at over $200 I expect flat regulation, not a cliff dive. I sold 2 brand new E1B lights because I thought the EB1 was going to be a leaps and bounds improvement. Not only was I wrong, but Surefire really dropped the ball hard on this one. In the past I would fight tooth and nail in support of Surefire. I am not so sure I would do that any more. I feel very let down and disappointed right now. I wish I never sold those new E1B lights.


----------



## Robin24k

From both a technical and professional viewpoint, I don't see anything bothersome about the EB1's runtime graph. I really don't see why flat regulation is such a big deal. Non-linear brightness perception makes the difference less significant than the numbers suggest, and studies done by manufacturers have shown that law enforcement customers prefer step-down regulation to extend runtime (and these customers are the target market).

Brianna, if you frequently use your light for more than 30 minutes at once, you might be better served by a headlamp or work light, rather than a tactical flashlight.


----------



## Viking

@ Robin24k 

Do you have a lux meter ?
If so , how many lux does it put out from 1 meter ?


----------



## brianna

I appreciate your hard work so thank you. The old E1B was 90 percent after 1 hour. Look at is now with the new EB1. I don't understand why from a professional viewpoint you don't think this is pathetic compared to the E1B? If I wanted a light that was going to start to decline fast after 30 min I don't need to pay top dollar for a Surefire. Flat regulation is also a sign of a quality in my book.


----------



## djdawg

I wish Surefire would chime in on this.
Has anyone called them and ask whether on not this to be true to them ??


----------



## tobrien

So if I want an L1 style interface, I need the tactical E1B right?


----------



## Robin24k

Yes, the tactical versional has a two-stage switch.



Viking said:


> If so , how many lux does it put out from 1 meter ?


I've measured 12,000cd with a LFP123A.



brianna said:


> I appreciate your hard work so thank you. The old E1B was 90 percent after 1 hour. Look at is now with the new EB1. I don't understand why from a professional viewpoint you don't think this is pathetic compared to the E1B? If I wanted a light that was going to start to decline fast after 30 min I don't need to pay top dollar for a Surefire. Flat regulation is also a sign of a quality in my book.


It's a tradeoff between output and runtime, which doesn't any bearing on quality. It's not hard to make flat regulation, but then you'll see practical problems such as short runtimes and excessive heat production. Avoiding these issues should be a sign of quality, not the other way around.



djdawg said:


> I wish Surefire would chime in on this.
> Has anyone called them and ask whether on not this to be true to them ??


At this point, I don't see any issue with the runtime.


----------



## djdawg

Thanks for the quick answer ..........I,d probably be one to get one of these anyway and judge for myself.
I like hearing others thoughts all the same .......... seeings how Iam far from being any light guru myself .....LOL


----------



## doctordun

I've heard that the backup with the rear flange will be available for pre-orders by mid December. 
Has anyone heard about the tactical? I would think that it would be later if Surefire is fulfilling contracts first.


----------



## Viking

Robin24k said:


> I've measured 12,000cd with a LFP123A.



wov... That's awesome.
Thank you once again , I really appreciate it.


----------



## brianna

The Surefire E1B had excellent run time and regulation without producing excessive heat. The EB1 looks like zero regulation. The fast downhill slide looks like they are just relying on the battery to maintain voltage.


----------



## 270winchester

brianna said:


> The Surefire E1B had excellent run time and regulation without producing excessive heat. The EB1 looks like zero regulation. The fast downhill slide looks like they are just relying on the battery to maintain voltage.





Robin24k said:


> It's a tradeoff between output and runtime, which doesn't any bearing on quality. It's not hard to make flat regulation, but then you'll see practical problems such as short runtimes and excessive heat production. Avoiding these issues should be a sign of quality, not the other way around.
> 
> 
> At this point, I don't see any issue with the runtime.


I agree with Robin. Show me a 1 cell 200 lumen TIR light with flat regulation for 1 hour on the market.

I'll be buying one, for sure, whenever they get them to the dealers.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

brianna said:


> I only own Surefire so this is not a bash. I am mad and frustrated to have waited 5 years to see Surefire come out with the EB1. This light is a inferior upgrade to the awesome E1B. Crap regulation, no real run time improvement, and my gosh at least they could have used a more recent emitter.
> So now I (or the rest of us) will have to wait another 5 years and hope the next model actually has flat regulation, and a significant lumen and run time improvement. If I was spending $50 for this light I would expect this. However at over $200 I expect flat regulation, not a cliff dive.



I don't think you're alone in those observations but since it is a SF we'll be assured that this is not yet another case of yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices. Isn't the XP-E sort of a poor man's version of the XP-G? As Cree says: 'XP-E HEW [High-Efficiency White] is designed to enable faster adoption of LED in cost-sensitive, consumer lighting products.'

http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/C...odules/XLamp/Data and Binning/XLampXPEHEW.pdf

The new EB1 emitter does seem to be brighter for a few minutes than the E1B but the E1B runtime plot shows that SF can do nice regulation when they want to. That wheel has already been invented and the regulation on high on the EB1 with 'current sag' seems to me to be a step backward.

Brasso showed me how to use the RCR123 in his beloved L1 and it rocks, seems almost as bright as an L2. Wonder if the RCR123 will work well in the EB1 since it can produce more current than the primary? I'll be happy to try it if I get an EB1 but after seeing the runtime plots I'm not too anxious to be an early adopter.

Looks like Robin24k's light was in some sort of milspec poly pak rather than a retail blister card or box. I assume it is a review item from the initial military production run. 

I bought a couple of E1B's on eBay a while back and they had a similar packaging with NSN numbers and cage codes, made me wonder about their provenance. Were they extras from a contract run or comshaw (naval parlance for 'it fell off a truck')?


----------



## kyhunter1

The EB1 without good output regulation is not for me. I will wait till somebody sells cheap on the market place, and then have it modded. For now, my old E1B, and E1B lego with a VME/M31N more than meets my needs.


----------



## brianna

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> I don't think you're alone in those observations but since it is a SF we'll be assured that this is not yet another case of yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices. Isn't the XP-E sort of a poor man's version of the XP-G? As Cree says: 'XP-E HEW [High-Efficiency White] is designed to enable faster adoption of LED in cost-sensitive, consumer lighting products.'
> 
> Wow my feelings for surefire are going down the toilet. Poor regulation and a LED intended for cheap lights. Problem is this is not a cheap light.


----------



## Glock 22

*For* *Robin24k, *What about trying a RCR123 in it and see what the graph would look like? Since your EB1 is a review sample. Try it and see if it will work. I'm sure other members would be curious to know as well.


----------



## Robin24k

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> I don't think you're alone in those observations but since it is a SF we'll be assured that this is not yet another case of yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices. Isn't the XP-E sort of a poor man's version of the XP-G? As Cree says: 'XP-E HEW [High-Efficiency White] is designed to enable faster adoption of LED in cost-sensitive, consumer lighting products.'


Not necessarily. Larger LED dies require larger optics, and for an XM-L, the optic will be 1.5" wide. The EB1's bezel is already wider than the E1B's, which tapers off in the front, so that is probably why SureFire had to use the XP-E. It would be better to sacrifice strict regulation rather than size of the light or the beam pattern.



GLOCK 22 said:


> *For* *Robin24k, *What about trying a RCR123 in it and see what the graph would look like? Since your EB1 is a review sample. Try it and see if it will work. I'm sure other members would be curious to know as well.


I don't use loose lithium-ion cells...all I've got are LFP123A's.


----------



## Glock 22

Robin24k said:


> I don't use loose lithium-ion cells...all I've got are LFP123A's.




So has any of your test been done with Primary CR123a batteries?


----------



## Robin24k

Sorry, I meant that the only rechargeable 123A's I have are LFP123A's. Lithium primary tests were done with SF123A's.


----------



## Glock 22

Robin24k said:


> Sorry, I meant that the only rechargeable 123A's I have are LFP123A's. Lithium primary tests were done with SF123A's.



That's what I thought, I just wanted to know for sure. Thanks.:thumbsup:


----------



## brianna

Robin24k said:


> Not necessarily. Larger LED dies require larger optics, and for an XM-L, the optic will be 1.5" wide. The EB1's bezel is already wider than the E1B's, which tapers off in the front, so that is probably why SureFire had to use the XP-E. It would be better to sacrifice strict regulation rather than size of the light or the beam pattern.



I do not agree with that at all. It is never a good idea to sacrifice regulation in a premium quality light. Beam pattern should never be sacrificed either. If this means size has to be bigger then so be it. I really want this light to stay the current size, but if it means a sacrifice in those areas then make it bigger. Let us not forget, this is not a cheap Chinese light. Sacrifices are unacceptable for a light in this price range.


----------



## Robin24k

Engineering is all about tradeoffs, and nothing comes without some sort of tradeoff.



brianna said:


> If this means size has to be bigger then so be it.


That's where the issue is. Remember, this is the EB1 *Backup*, and SureFire's marketing materials tout the fact that it's a compact backup light source. If it's too big, it's becomes tactical-sized.

The EB1 is not designed to be a duty light, so strict regulation is not that critical. If you want both high-output and strict regulation, you need something larger that uses multiple 123A's or a lithium-ion battery, not a single-cell backup light.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

> Engineering is all about tradeoffs, and nothing comes without some sort of tradeoff.



And like I said, maybe we're expecting too much in a $220 MSRP single cell LED light from SF. 

But I would suggest that the performance would be considered disappointing if an XP-E light was issued at this price point in 2012 by another manufacturer.

There do seem to be many XP-G lights in the 200 lumen range including the low end SF's.

The XP-E, introduced back in Fall of 2008, is a update of the venerable XR-E with the same die size of 3.45 mm squared I believe. Perhaps the lower price and smaller die size dictated the use of the XP-E to avoid an optic redesign and help keep the price increase to only $60 over the E1B.


----------



## Glock 22

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> There do seem to be many XP-G lights in the 200 lumen range including the low end SF's.



Take the Malkoff M31 in the cool tint it's around 230 lumens. And you get that output from a single CR123a, plus it's an XP-G led.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

GLOCK 22 said:


> Take the Malkoff M31 in the cool tint it's around 230 lumens. And you get that output from a single CR123a, plus it's an XP-G led.



Got one in my hand with a VME head on a SF E1E body. Runs great on an AW RCR123. A little top heavy, I should put a Z68 tailcap on it to keep it from tumbling off my fingertips. Only one mode, great beam but not quite as tight a hotspot as an E1B since it is a reflector instead of TIR. And the whole combination is made in the USA.


----------



## Brasso

Yep, Gene's missing out on a fortune by not making multi-mode modules.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

As a flashaholic, and owner of several SF flashlights, and other brands, as well as some custom lights from our own here on CPF, I will say that I have never felt (subjective) that SF ever made flashlights for the purpose of exhibiting flat regulation, even though that may have occurred with some of their LED lights. That concern is ours (flashaholics), and we should consider that when we make judgments. Enough said.

Bill


----------



## Lodogg2221

Agreed Bill. Some are forgetting the name of the light too. Its not meant as a primary light. Its meant as a backup light, or secondary. As in, once your primary is depleted, you pull out this one. Could be used as a stand alone, but thats not its intended purpose, hence the size and the name. People do use it for a primary EDC light all the time, and thats fine, but that doesnt mean thats what its intended for.
One is none, and two is one. If you dont understand that last sentence, then you dont understand the purpose of this light.

As far as comparing runtime tests and output tests with the EB1 vs the E1B, it would seem to me that the same guy would have had to test the same lights at roughly the same times, on the same lot batteries to get results to compare honestly. If we are using Self-bilts results with Robins results, that really doenst seem to me to be a great idea.
Id think it would be much easier to either buy it and see for yourself how it works, or let it pass if you want to believe a 3rd party based on one single review that isnt even finished yet.

Im glad guys like Robin take the time and put in the effort to do reviews, but they are not the be-all end-all with regard to these lights. They are generally filled with a LOT of opinion, bias, etc. 
Ive already decided I want one, based on the original specs and my past experience with SF. Had I not decided, Id have at least waited until a couple people reviewed the light....and certainly not decided based on a few random bits of info meant to be part of a larger story thats not yet finished.


----------



## Glock 22

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Got one in my hand with a VME head on a SF E1E body. Runs great on an AW RCR123. A little top heavy, I should put a Z68 tailcap on it to keep it from tumbling off my fingertips. Only one mode, great beam but not quite as tight a hotspot as an E1B since it is a reflector instead of TIR. And the whole combination is made in the USA.




Same setup I have minus the RCR123. What kind of runtime do you get on an RCR123? I've never tried one in mine.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

GLOCK 22 said:


> Same setup I have minus the RCR123. What kind of runtime do you get on an RCR123? I've never tried one in mine.



Just double checked, my M31 is actually somewhere in another light. Got an M61 in this E1E, but it is indeed running great on the RCR. Hope I didn't put the M31 in a two cell light... 

I seem to get about 40 minutes in this config not sure how much of it is above 200 lumens.


----------



## 270winchester

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> There do seem to be many XP-G lights in the 200 lumen range including the low end SF's.



And none of them have TIR optics. I prefer my original Malkoff M60 to any of the newer modules for that reason.


----------



## 270winchester

GLOCK 22 said:


> Take the Malkoff M31 in the cool tint it's around 230 lumens. And you get that output from a single CR123a, plus it's an XP-G led.



One mode, reflector. Not even in the same category. And I'm a Malkoff fan.


----------



## Snareman

Anyone have any idea when they will actually start showing up somewhere for purchase? B&H website says available December 8th.


----------



## Glock 22

Snareman said:


> Anyone have any idea when they will actually start showing up somewhere for purchase? B&H website says available December 8th.




Opticsplanet said they would have them instock on December 17th but you can pre-order from them now.


----------



## Snareman

GLOCK 22 said:


> Opticsplanet said they would have them instock on December 17th but you can pre-order from them now.



Thanks. I will never order from OP again. I've had a few bad experiences with the, simply don't trust them and won't buy from them if for no other reason than just on principle alone.


----------



## Lodogg2221

Optics Planet told me they would have the Lawman before anyone else too, and said they were about two weeks out from receiving their shipment when 4 other places already had them in stock.
I prefer honesty to made up BS, and from that experience (which was actually two different phone calls to two different people at Optics Planet who both had completely different stories about availability), Ive got to say I agree with Snareman, Ill shop elsewhere first.


----------



## Glock 22

I believe I'll look elsewhere too. I just don't believe them.


----------



## Snareman

Like I said, B&H says 12/8 and they are reputable. I'd preorder it now, but I keep hoping someone else will have it sooner. 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/849307-REG/Surefire_EB1C_A_BK_E1B_Backup_Dual_Output_LED.html


----------



## Glock 22

Snareman said:


> Like I said, B&H says 12/8 and they are reputable. I'd preorder it now, but I keep hoping someone else will have it sooner.
> 
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/849307-REG/Surefire_EB1C_A_BK_E1B_Backup_Dual_Output_LED.html




Now Opticsplanet is telling me the end of next week, I've got two different stories each time I've called. I don't even believe they know themselves. I can pre-order the silver one from bh photo but I can't the black one and it's the one I want.


----------



## tonkem

Bhphoto has them in stock, granted not the tactical switch: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/849307-REG/Surefire_EB1C_A_BK_E1B_Backup_Dual_Output_LED.html


----------



## doctordun

I've got a tactical on order with them. Hope it is soon.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

tonkem said:


> Bhphoto has them in stock, granted not the tactical switch: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/849307-REG/Surefire_EB1C_A_BK_E1B_Backup_Dual_Output_LED.html



Probably a typo, from the B&H listing above:



> _Note!_ _ Runtime at highest setting is measured until output drops below 50 lumens
> _
> Performance Highlights
> 
> Dual output: 110 / 5 lumens



Hope it's really the EB1, not the E1B that is in stock. Note the E1B listing embedded in the full link title:



> www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/849307-REG/Surefire_EB1C_A_BK_E1B_Backup_Dual_Output_LED



Most of the other ad copy and the stock numbers indicate the EB1.


----------



## tonkem

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Probably a typo, from the B&H listing above:
> 
> 
> 
> Hope it's really the EB1, not the E1B that is in stock. Note the E1B listing embedded in the full link title:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the other ad copy and the stock numbers indicate the EB1.



It is the eb1.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

I received an email this evening from B&H saying that the SureFire # EB1C-A-BK (clicky) is in stock.


----------



## Glock 22

I just ordered one from B&H. It said instock so let me cross my fingers and hope it ships Tuesday.


----------



## tonkem

GLOCK 22 said:


> I just ordered one from B&H. It said instock so let me cross my fingers and hope it ships Tuesday.



Let us know how you like it.


----------



## Glock 22

tonkem said:


> Let us know how you like it.




I sure will. I spoke earlier with B&H and they was'nt instock. Wonder why the sudden change, but I will call to make sure Tuesday.


----------



## LightWalker

I have orered camera equipment from B&H before with no problems. B&H is one of two places in New York that won't bait and switch that I know of and is well known among Pros.


----------



## tonkem

I have ordered many macs from them as well. Excellent service and timely shipping. I would expect no difference here.


----------



## j_amie_

This light is on my short list right now for EDC...


----------



## Mojer

Lodogg2221 said:


> Agreed Bill. Some are forgetting the name of the light too. Its not meant as a primary light. Its meant as a backup light, or secondary. As in, once your primary is depleted, you pull out this one. Could be used as a stand alone, but thats not its intended purpose, hence the size and the name. People do use it for a primary EDC light all the time, and thats fine, but that doesnt mean thats what its intended for.
> One is none, and two is one. If you dont understand that last sentence, then you dont understand the purpose of this light.
> 
> As far as comparing runtime tests and output tests with the EB1 vs the E1B, it would seem to me that the same guy would have had to test the same lights at roughly the same times, on the same lot batteries to get results to compare honestly. If we are using Self-bilts results with Robins results, that really doenst seem to me to be a great idea.
> Id think it would be much easier to either buy it and see for yourself how it works, or let it pass if you want to believe a 3rd party based on one single review that isnt even finished yet.
> 
> Im glad guys like Robin take the time and put in the effort to do reviews, but they are not the be-all end-all with regard to these lights. They are generally filled with a LOT of opinion, bias, etc.
> Ive already decided I want one, based on the original specs and my past experience with SF. Had I not decided, Id have at least waited until a couple people reviewed the light....and certainly not decided based on a few random bits of info meant to be part of a larger story thats not yet finished.



Agreed but I think that the quality of SF make it possible to only carry this light. I know quite a few people who only carry a E1B due to its size and reliability.


----------



## Glock 22

:twothumbsI just got off the phone with B&H and they said it was for sure instock and will be shipping out today.


----------



## brianna

I spoke to a Surefire engineer last night. A real engineer that the general public would never have access to. I was in charge of a bulk order, that is how I was able to know all the info I shared regarding the EB1 in previous posts. 
He told me the EB1 and the E1B both have similar regulation graphing results. He promised me it was smooth and even. I mentioned the cliff dive regulation results that were posted here. He told me both lights have very smooth almost identical percentage run times even at the hour mark. Surefire does graph all their lights, but they do not release their results for public viewing. At the next meeting he said he will bring this up and see if in the future all lights will have graphing results posted on the web page.


----------



## Sean

brianna said:


> I spoke to a Surefire engineer last night. A real engineer that the general public would never have access to. I was in charge of a bulk order, that is how I was able to know all the info I shared regarding the EB1 in previous posts.
> He told me the EB1 and the E1B both have similar regulation graphing results. He promised me it was smooth and even. I mentioned the cliff dive regulation results that were posted here. He told me both lights have very smooth almost identical percentage run times even at the hour mark. Surefire does graph all their lights, but they do not release their results for public viewing. At the next meeting he said he will bring this up and see if in the future all lights will have graphing results posted on the web page.



Surefire used to include runtime graphs in the flashlight instruction sheet:


----------



## Glock 22

Wonder what kind of lens it has in it?


----------



## tab665

brianna said:


> I spoke to a Surefire engineer last night. A real engineer that the general public would never have access to. I was in charge of a bulk order, that is how I was able to know all the info I shared regarding the EB1 in previous posts.
> He told me the EB1 and the E1B both have similar regulation graphing results. He promised me it was smooth and even. I mentioned the cliff dive regulation results that were posted here. He told me both lights have very smooth almost identical percentage run times even at the hour mark. Surefire does graph all their lights, but they do not release their results for public viewing. At the next meeting he said he will bring this up and see if in the future all lights will have graphing results posted on the web page.


i dont see how any of that would be possible since were compairing a xre putting out 100 lumens, vs a xpe driven to put out 200 lumens.


----------



## brianna

Looks like he lied to me. I can see cliff diving is a Surefire specialty. I would not want to print those graphs either.


----------



## brianna

GLOCK 22 said:


> Wonder what kind of lens it has in it?


 I was told same lens that is in the E1B. It is the glass lens, don't know much else about it.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Sean said:


> Surefire used to include runtime graphs in the flashlight instruction sheet:



Thanks for posting those Sean. The A2L curve strikes me as odd since it shows initial lumen output in the 50's on high and the light with the 'new' SSC P4 emitter has been advertised as a 120 lumen light from the gitgo:

http://www.surefire.com/a2-led-aviator.html

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2009/02/16/surefire-a2l-aviator-what-the-heck-took-so-long/

Perhaps a disconnect between the SF marketing and engineering departments?


----------



## 270winchester

brianna said:


> Looks like he lied to me. I can see cliff diving is a Surefire specialty. I would not want to print those graphs either.




Drama queen much?

Using the graph Robin graciously provided, I roughly plotted the output curve and took a Ln function of the values and here is what you eyes actually see:






Even the HDS 200 drops to 170 after 10 seconds on high. Bear in mind that we don't actually know what the starting output is, could be 200, could be 250, we don't know. But then again I don't run around with a 1 cell TIR 200 lumen light permanently attached to an integrated light sphere and obsess over the flatness of the output curve.


----------



## Glock 22

brianna said:


> I was told same lens that is in the E1B. It is the glass lens, don't know much else about it.



Thanks, that's what I figured it would be.


----------



## RA40

I don't know why this came to mind but like a new Apple product - flashaholics lining up to get them on the first day.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

RA40 said:


> I don't know why this came to mind but like a new Apple product - flashaholics lining up to get them on the first day.



Good point, can you imagine the market reaction if Apple released products very sporadically after the announcement like SF?

Both companies are good at creating buzz on a new product release, Apple usually delivers promptly with the latest technology.


----------



## Robin24k

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Good point, can you imagine the market reaction if Apple released products very sporadically after the announcement like SF?


Reliability and product safety aren't Apple's strengths...and getting things right takes time...


----------



## maxrep12

270winchester said:


> Drama queen much?
> 
> Using the graph Robin graciously provided, I roughly plotted the output curve and took a Ln function of the values and here is what you eyes actually see:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even the HDS 200 drops to 170 after 10 seconds on high. Bear in mind that we don't actually know what the starting output is, could be 200, could be 250, we don't know. But then again I don't run around with a 1 cell TIR 200 lumen light permanently attached to an integrated light sphere and obsess over the flatness of the output curve.


 Is "Perceived" output a new ANSI standard? C'mon...lets get real here.


----------



## 270winchester

maxrep12 said:


> Is "Perceived" output a new ANSI standard? C'mon...lets get real here.



Looking at Robin's graph I'm strangely comfortable with the output curve. The R123 curve shows there is regulation and the CR123 curve says the cr123 cell is not able to provide a perfectly flat output over time given the unique combination of:
-1 CR123 primary cell
-TIR
-200 Lumens
-Multi mode output
-price point(B&H s selling it for 154)

Let's get real here, show me another light that does all of the above at this price point.


----------



## Robin24k

maxrep12 said:


> Is "Perceived" output a new ANSI standard? C'mon...lets get real here.


There's no doubt that the EB1's runtime graph is not flat, but I think he's trying to address the issue that flat regulation is overrated.


----------



## maxrep12

Listing bullet point stats of any particular light does not necessarily speak to the value or performance of the unit. The fact that other manufacturers have not chosen to build its twin is not relevant either.

The whole thread feels like forum members engaging in apologetics for the light.


----------



## Bearlight

Hi,

Having been lurking for a while, and having a crazy flashlight obsession ever since the floods here in Australia, when my big 3d led maglite just didn't do it for me, I have been collecting flashlights and watching Cpf with interest.

I now own about 20 surefires and a 15 other of various brands ( I did say I was obsessed!) all collected in the last year or so.

I have the e1b, invicticus, fury, Kroma, e2dled and both versions of the U2.

Day to day I carry the p4 U2 and the e2dled I find I almost never use the e2dled as the U2 has heaps of light for most things. I have it as my 'backup' as that way I always have a fresh set of primaries on me. 

The point of this is simple, lights serve a purpose, to see things in the dark! And most of the time I find that I don't even use the highest setting on my U2! Even my Kroma puts out great output at a 'lousy' 60 lumens. Lights show their best in use, not white wall hunting or scientific graphs that show their mathematical properties. 

It is fantastic that people like Robin24 put all that work into reviews, and I take my hat off to them for their work. But numbers on a graph and beam shots, especially those on a white wall should be taken with a grain of salt. Especially as the human eye has a far greater dynamic range than any camera is able to reproduce. 

This is also the same when it comes to tints, as the human eye is capable of adapting and perceiving something as white when under different lighting conditions. It's mainly when you put two beam shots together when you notice the difference between slight tint variations.

This little light looks fantastic, particularly the tactical version. And I personally preferr the idea of extra runtime that a sloping curve would provide over a fully regulated output. As do I think, the majority of real world customers this light is built for, not those obsessed like me.

End of rant


----------



## brianna

Flat regulation is not overrated. HDS lights puts a lot of effort into their regulation circuit. 
Maxrep12 said exactly what I am thinking. This entire thread is like a giant apology for the pathetic light Surefire is releasing. Surefire should apologize to us. Recall all the EB1 lights made. Then release a EB1 worthy of the Surefire name.


----------



## tonywalker23

RA40 said:


> I don't know why this came to mind but like a new Apple product - flashaholics lining up to get them on the first day.



i used to work at apple. in my e2dl review on my youtube page i actually talked a little about the similarities to apple and surefire marketing.


----------



## Bearlight

BTW,

If I remember correctly this flashlight was listed in the catalogue as programmable with the yet to be released USB dongle. 

If that is the case then I am curious about the small flat step at 60% in the runtime graph... I am guessing that it will be regulated at that level if you drop the top output down to 120 lumens or so, maybe that will give regulated output for close to two hours?

Just speculation of course, but that is what I would probably do with it myself. 

Cheers


----------



## kyhunter1

Thank you! My feelings exactly 




brianna said:


> Flat regulation is not overrated. HDS lights puts a lot of effort into their regulation circuit.
> Maxrep12 said exactly what I am thinking. This entire thread is like a giant apology for the pathetic light Surefire is releasing. Surefire should apologize to us. Recall all the EB1 lights made. Then release a EB1 worthy of the Surefire name.


----------



## Glock 22

I got my shipping notification on my E1B from B&H. That was fast.


----------



## 270winchester

brianna said:


> Flat regulation is not overrated. HDS lights puts a lot of effort into their regulation circuit.



And HDS doesn't use an optic and thus not restricted to the LED limitation. I love Henry's work and have a bunch of his lights, but he doesn't make anything like the EB1.


> This entire thread is like a giant apology for the pathetic light Surefire is releasing. Surefire should apologize to us. Recall all the EB1 lights made. Then release a EB1 worthy of the Surefire name.



Apologize for what, making a product that no other manufacturers has managed to accomplish?

Would you like John Matthews to personally conduct a apology ceremony where the top leadership of Surefire collectively bow to you for all the pain and suffering you went through to not buy an EB1?


----------



## 270winchester

maxrep12 said:


> Listing bullet point stats of any particular light does not necessarily speak to the value or performance of the unit. The fact that other manufacturers have not chosen to build its twin is not relevant either.



Oh rly?

Says the person who puts all the judgment of a light based on a output curve. But hey, let's just judge SF on a different standard as everyone else, everyone get your torches and pitchforks, we are gonna get some satisfaction out of those *******s in Fountain Valley!!!!


----------



## Glock 22

Here is a good review. Lets wait until people start getting their's and see what more than one or two people think about them. Then after more than a couple people get their's and start posting real user reviews, who really use this light then we'll see where it stands. Am I right or wrong?


----------



## Lucky Duck

Right you are!


----------



## tonkem

GLOCK 22 said:


> I got my shipping notification on my E1B from B&H. That was fast.



Yes. They are quick. Be sure to post some pics and first impressions when you get it.


----------



## brianna

270winchester said:


> And HDS doesn't use an optic and thus not restricted to the LED limitation. I love Henry's work and have a bunch of his lights, but he doesn't make anything like the EB1.
> 
> The TIR optic can be made in different sizes. Should not take a design team 5 years to design it.
> 
> Apologize for what, making a product that no other manufacturers has managed to accomplish?
> 
> I can live with the out of date emitter, but poor regulation is not better then a cheap light made in China.
> 
> Would you like John Matthews to personally conduct a apology ceremony where the top leadership of Surefire collectively bow to you for all the pain and suffering you went through to not buy an EB1?



I looked forward to this light for a very long time. My E1B had excellent regulation. It was worth every penny I paid for it. Some people just don't know any better, and will purchase anything. If poor regulation does not bother you, then you are really no different then the average Joe on the street purchasing a plastic flashlight. Since you are here, you should know better, and you should be outraged.


----------



## Brasso

They should have never stopped making the L1. I think it's still the better light in every way. And with an RCR just as bright, if not brighter than the EB1 is supposed to be. 

But, I'll still probably pick one up eventually. 200 lumens on a single 123. I don't see how it could be much better considering the components. I'm sure they could have made the graph flatter, it just wouldn't be 200 lumens. I guess they're bending to the huge number of lumen inflated Chinese lights on the market. People look at the number printed on the box. Even people on this forum, that should know better, still get sucked in by it.

Look at the Sunwayman V10/11 lights. Utter junk. But they sell like prohibition whiskey.


----------



## 270winchester

brianna said:


> The TIR optic can be made in different sizes. Should not take a design team 5 years to design it.
> 
> I can live with the out of date emitter, but *poor regulation *is not better then a cheap light made in China.
> 
> I looked forward to this light for a very long time. My E1B had excellent regulation. It was worth every penny I paid for it.
> 
> Some people just don't know any better, and will purchase anything. If *poor regulation* does not bother you, then you are really no different then the average Joe on the street purchasing a plastic flashlight. Since you are here, you should know better, and you should be outraged.


----------



## 270winchester

Brasso said:


> But, I'll still probably pick one up eventually. 200 lumens on a single 123. I don't see how it could be much better considering the components. I'm sure they could have made the graph flatter, it just wouldn't be 200 lumens. I guess they're bending to the huge number of lumen inflated Chinese lights on the market. People look at the number printed on the box. Even people on this forum, that should know better, still get sucked in by it.
> 
> Look at the Sunwayman V10/11 lights. Utter junk. But they sell like prohibition whiskey.


Wise words those are.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Let's not be getting carried away with emotions here and start to belittle fellow members. Let's be polite and remember CPF rule 4.

Bill


----------



## LGT

GLOCK 22 said:


> Here is a good review. Lets wait until people start getting their's and see what more than one or two people think about them. Then after more than a couple people get their's and start posting real user reviews, who really use this light then we'll see where it stands. Am I right or wrong?


:thumbsup: Agreed. Graphs and white wall hunting are nice., but how a light performs in the field is, IMO, the best way to judge.


----------



## Robin24k

brianna said:


> If poor regulation does not bother you, then you are really no different then the average Joe on the street purchasing a plastic flashlight. Since you are here, you should know better, and you should be outraged.


I think that's a little extreme. Step-down regulation is a perfectly acceptable form of regulation for _practical use_. As I have mentioned before, multiple manufacturers have conducted studies with law enforcement professionals and concluded that extended runtime is preferable to absolutely consistent output.

During critical situations, such as a tactical operation, maximum output is needed, but lights are typically used for only several minutes at a time. Longer use, such as directing traffic or investigative work, are not as critical and do not require maximum output. In these situations, automatically reducing output is preferred.

Since brightness perception is nonlinear, it would be difficult to tell the difference between strictly flat regulation and slow step-down regulation. However, the difference in power consumption and runtime is much more significant because of inefficiencies, such as extended periods of high current drain, excessive heat production, and operating outside the LED's most efficient region of operation.

There is simply no real need for tactical flashlights to have absolutely consistent output throughout the runtime, which is why manufacturers such as 5.11 Tactical, Maglite, Streamlight, and SureFire all use varying degrees of step-down regulation.


----------



## Bearlight

That's mainly why I use the p4 U2 the most, I love it's runtime.

When I am walking bike paths late at night though, I use the Kroma on blue,( crazy runtime and lights up softly but so well in the dark) so I have quick access to the high mode for a few seconds so I don't get any nasty surprises hiding in dark spots. Usually this is all I need.

Sometimes I carry the invicticus if i really want a bit of throw, but I usually only use it on about the 16 to 30 lumen setting. I just know that it has a nice blinding 800 lumens if needed, accessible instantly like the Kroma via its two stage twisty. 

Thats why I would Like the tactical version of the eb1. The 200 lumens would only be used for brief spotting... The U2 cannot compete with that with its clicky.


----------



## 270winchester

Robin24k said:


> Since brightness perception is nonlinear, it would be difficult to tell the difference between strictly flat regulation and slow step-down regulation. However, the difference in power consumption and runtime is much more significant because of inefficiencies, such as extended periods of high current drain, excessive heat production, and operating outside the LED's most efficient region of operation.



I was just gonna say that....

I am so outraged I only ordered one.


----------



## Robin24k

Some pictures from my review (which won't be ready until next month)...



 





 





 





 





 

​


----------



## Craig K

Hey Robin24k does the EB1 with the shroud tail stand? looking at your pictures it looks like the rubber button sticks out a bit so it looks like it may not tail stand?


----------



## Robin24k

It stands, but wobbles because the rubber is quite stiff.


----------



## Craig K

Robin24k said:


> It stands, but wobbles because the rubber is quite stiff.



That is a bit of a shame i was going to buy the one with the shroud because i thought it would tail stand without wobbling...bummer.


----------



## Craig K

What is the point of the model with the shroud if it does not tail stand properly?


----------



## Robin24k

It's to prevent accidental activation. I don't think they design lights specifically for the ability to tail-stand...


----------



## Craig K

Robin24k said:


> It's to prevent accidental activation. I don't think they design lights specifically for the ability to tail-stand...



Oh yes of course accidental activation, thanks Robin.


----------



## Coup de Grace

Thanks for the pics Robin.


----------



## tab665

ive never handled an E1B, but in the pictures of the EB1 it seems like there arent that many threads on the head. maybe 4 twists and the heads off?


----------



## brianna

Brasso said:


> I'm sure they could have made the graph flatter, it just wouldn't be 200 lumens. I guess they're bending to the huge number of lumen inflated Chinese lights on the market. People look at the number printed on the box. Even people on this forum, that should know better, still get sucked in by it.
> 
> Look at the Sunwayman V10/11 lights. Utter junk. But they sell like prohibition whiskey.



This is the real problem. It should not be a lumen game. Surefire is getting sucked into it, and people buy it forgetting about the reason Surefire rises above the rest. The E1B still has 90% output after one hour. Flat regulation and still producing bright light. That light was the reason I found this site and dream about power failures. After one hour my old E1B will still be brighter then the brand new EB1. Seems like the new light is a step backwards to me. I expect improvements in future products. This new EB1 is like a bright flash in the pan that gets dim very fast. Maybe next year they will make a single cell 500 lumen light good for 5 min. I am sure you will line up to purchase that as well.


----------



## 880arm

tab665 said:


> ive never handled an E1B, but in the pictures of the EB1 it seems like there arent that many threads on the head. maybe 4 twists and the heads off?



The EB1 looks about the same as the E1B and other E-series lights. It takes just under 3 full turns to remove the head on the E1B.


----------



## funzel

brianna said:


> After one hour my old E1B will still be brighter then the brand new EB1.



In a nutshell! :thumbsup:


----------



## kyhunter1

Totally incorrect. Take a look at what other manufacturers/builders do with single cell lights and they are not even using the newest XPG2 or XPE2 led's. 



Brasso said:


> ......I'm sure they could have made the graph flatter, it just wouldn't be 200 lumens. ........


----------



## Glock 22

Mine will be here Monday and I can tell more about it. I don't have a graph but I can do Lux readings, if that would help out any.


----------



## Robin24k

brianna said:


> The E1B still has 90% output after one hour. Flat regulation and still producing bright light.


This is the real problem. Only initial output matters, because 99% of the EB1's intended users will never run it continuously for one hour.



brianna said:


> Maybe next year they will make a single cell 500 lumen light good for 5 min. I am sure you will line up to purchase that as well.


Actually, both the R1 and UNR drop from 750 or 800 lumens to 500 lumens after 3 minutes...


----------



## tobrien

Robin24k said:


> Actually, both the R1 and UNR drop from 750 or 800 lumens to 500 lumens after 3 minutes...



is that because of heat control? could they run at 750-800 for longer perhaps? or do they drain the batteries that quick?


----------



## Robin24k

Both are a factor. Even on 500 lumens, the light gets quite warm.


----------



## kyhunter1

A question for you to give all of us some insight. Say you run the EB1 for 30 minutes and turn it off. The next time it's turned back on, does it go back to the 200 lumens full output agian? OR, does it start back up with the brightness level of it's 30 min time position on the graph?





Robin24k said:


> This is the real problem. Only initial output matters, because 99% of the EB1's intended users will never run it continuously for one hour.
> 
> 
> ........


----------



## Robin24k

It has no memory, but the battery has been discharged, so it would turn on again somewhere below 100%.


----------



## kyhunter1

That's what I thought. For me, the 110 lumen E1B is the one to have. Im sure the new EB1 is a very robust rugged reliable light, but it's not for me. I use my old E1B for a half hour at a time and need the stable output. 




Robin24k said:


> It has no memory, but the battery has been discharged, so it would turn on again somewhere below 100%.


----------



## 270winchester

kyhunter1 said:


> Totally incorrect. Take a look at what other manufacturers/builders do with single cell lights and they are not even using the newest XPG2 or XPE2 led's.



Brasso is absolutely correct given the current constraints.

Which other maker offers a similar product with TIR?



kyhunter1 said:


> That's what I thought. For me, the 110 lumen E1B is the one to have. Im sure the new EB1 is a very robust rugged reliable light, but it's not for me. I use my old E1B for a half hour at a time and need the stable output.



If you constantly use you light for 1/2 hour at a time, you might be better off getting a E2L-AA for the task. I can think of very few situation where you need to use a light for extended periods of time and also require the small size of a 1 cell light.

Do you need visually stable output or mathematically stable output? Once again, your eyes sees this with an EB1







Of course if your tasks require:
-30 minutes of use at a time
-small 1 cell light
-mathematically constant output

Then by all means stay with the E1B. Heck I'm carrying an E1B right now.


----------



## brianna

During a power failure you will use your light for 30 min or more. The EB1 will then start a steep cliff dive and the E1B still shining bright can be used to put new batteries in your new dim EB1


----------



## davyro

I really like my E1B & i was going to definitely going to buy an EB1 on the strength of how good the E1B is,now all of this discussion is making me think twice about purchasing the EB1 maybe i'll wait
& see what everyone thinks of the new model before i take the plunge,anyway thanks to all who have had an input on this thread your opinions are appreciated & they will be even more so once any
of you buy the light & report on here the pro's & con's.:goodjob:


----------



## 270winchester

brianna said:


> During a power failure you will use your light for 30 min or more.



Oh of course, during a power failure everyone only uses their 1-CR123 light on high, all the time.

Then again, you dream about power failures. Guess what? My folks just lived through 3 weeks of powerless aftermath of Sandy with occasional access to power through work. They NEVER used high modes, only the low modes on my E1B I lent them. So take your expertise and go play in a FantasyPowerOutage league where perfectly flat high output unlocks the next level of missions.





brianna said:


> However at over $200 I expect flat regulation, not a* cliff dive.*





brianna said:


> I mentioned the *cliff dive* regulation results that were posted here.





brianna said:


> I can see *cliff diving* is a Surefire specialty. I would not want to print those graphs either.





> The EB1 will then start a *steep cliff dive* and the E1B still shining bright can be used to put new batteries in your new dim EB1


----------



## brianna

davyro said:


> I really like my E1B & i was going to definitely going to buy an EB1 on the strength of how good the E1B is,now all of this discussion is making me think twice about purchasing the EB1 .:goodjob:


 
I am going to wait till Surefire updates the EB1 with a more modern emitter. After all these years playing with my E1B, I have become spoiled with the long running flat regulation. I don't want to take several steps backwards. I find the new EB1 a very unacceptable replacement for the very awesome E1B.


----------



## 270winchester

brianna said:


> After all these years playing with my E1B, I have become spoiled



And that's the bottom line. You play with your lights and you are spoiled.


----------



## kyhunter1

I strongly disagree. All surefire would have needed to do is put the right driver in the EB1. I have a E1B/VME setup with a M31N module that runs 200+ lumens stable on one cell for around 45 minutes and then has 3-4 hours of dim output to not leave me in the dark. To top it off, that is with a Gen 1 XPG R4 neutral led. If Custom builders are able to reliably do it, Surefire can too. With the right driver, higher flux and efficiency of the XPG2, the EB1 can produce 200 OTF lumens for the better part of an hour. If you all want settle for a very expensive light with regulation not much better than direct drive, then go for it..




270winchester said:


> Brasso is absolutely correct given the current constraints.
> 
> Which other maker offers a similar product with TIR?
> 
> .......


----------



## brianna

270winchester said:


> Oh of course, during a power failure everyone only uses their 1-CR123 light on high, all the time.
> 
> Then again, you dream about power failures. Guess what? My folks just lived through 3 weeks of powerless aftermath of Sandy with occasional access to power through work. They NEVER used high modes, only the low modes on my E1B I lent them. So take your expertise and go play in a FantasyPowerOutage league where perfectly flat high output unlocks the next level of missions.
> 
> I had power knocked out for 3 weeks as well from hurricane Sandy. Of course I took my expertise and enjoyed my back up generator for 3 weeks. 100 gallons of gasoline prepped with stabil, and all my lights on high because life is short and why suffer by not being prepared. Next mission unlocked sir.


----------



## Robin24k

brianna said:


> During a power failure you will use your light for 30 min or more. The EB1 will then start a steep cliff dive and the E1B still shining bright can be used to put new batteries in your new dim EB1


True, but the EB1 is not designed to be a power failure backup light, so it's not the most suitable choice. You would be better suited with either the EB1's low mode, or another light with a higher capacity battery pack...


----------



## Lodogg2221

brianna said:


> Flat regulation is not overrated. HDS lights puts a lot of effort into their regulation circuit.
> Maxrep12 said exactly what I am thinking. This entire thread is like a giant apology for the pathetic light Surefire is releasing. Surefire should apologize to us. Recall all the EB1 lights made. Then release a EB1 worthy of the Surefire name.



And yet you were still "involved in a bulk order" with them and their inferior lights. 
Quit whining already. If you dont like it, and its obvious you dont, then dont buy it. Tell your engineer buddy that it sucks and you wont be involved in any more bulk orders until they get off their lazy butts and fix it. 
Im sure that will go well....


----------



## brianna

The E1B was not made for a power failure, but that light sure does work well for it.


----------



## 270winchester

kyhunter1 said:


> I strongly disagree. All surefire would have needed to do is put the right driver in the EB1. I have a E1B/VME setup with a M31N module that runs 200+ lumens stable on one cell for around 45 minutes and then has 3-4 hours of dim output to not leave me in the dark. To top it off, that is with a Gen 1 XPG R4 neutral led. If Custom builders are able to reliably do it, Surefire can too. With the right driver, higher flux and efficiency of the XPG2, the EB1 can produce 200 OTF lumens for the better part of an hour. If you all want settle for a very expensive light with regulation not much better than direct drive, then go for it..


Isn't the m31 using a reflector?


----------



## 270winchester

Robin24k said:


> True, but the EB1 is not designed to be a power failure backup light, so it's not the most suitable choice. You would be better suited with either the EB1's low mode, or another light with a higher capacity battery pack...



The bottom line is Brianna is not buying an EB1.

I think.


----------



## 270winchester

brianna said:


> The E1B was not made for a power failure, but that light sure does work well for it.



I'm disappointed it doesn't stay constant bright on high for 2 hours. Surefire should apologize and recall E1Bs.


----------



## 270winchester

Lodogg2221 said:


> And yet you were still "involved in a bulk order" with them and their inferior lights.
> Quit whining already. If you dont like it, and its obvious you dont, then dont buy it. Tell your engineer buddy that it sucks and you wont be involved in any more bulk orders until they get off their lazy butts and fix it.
> Im sure that will go well....


yeah but in that case brianna will lose the superduper secret source with access to information that no one else has, for without him there won't be any more vague confidential information for us.


----------



## Glock 22

Robin24k said:


> This is the real problem. Only initial output matters, because 99% of the EB1's intended users will never run it continuously for one hour.



I have to totally agree with you.


----------



## brianna

My information was very accurate, don't be so jealous 270 winchester.


----------



## Glock 22

When I come to the conclusion that I don't like something, I get rid of it and forget about it. My advice is to just to forget about it if you don't like it; don't buy it and be done with it. Again, as I stated earlier in the thread, let us wait until some members that will use it in the real world, then give us feedback. We could look at graphs all day long, but until actual users put it to the test, we won't have reliable results until then. I mean really it's not even been recieved by just a couple. I'll take twenty or thirty CPF'ers input on what they really think of it, and what I think of it when I get it on Monday. Lets not jump to a fast conclusion and trash a light that is just now been released. Graphs don't mean anything to me, it's what the light will actually preform when I get it, and if it don't meet my standards I'll put it on the marketplace and take a loss on it.


----------



## Lodogg2221

brianna said:


> My information was very accurate, don't be so jealous 270 winchester.



So I have to ask. Since you know someone, inside, that no one else in the general public would know, how come Robin got an EB1 to test and you havent seen one yet? 

And Robin is right about initial output. The target audience for this light only cares about initial output and short bursts of light. They do not use these for extended periods on high, and Surefire knows that, somehow....could be they did a bit of research. 
How many people put their lights on high and leave them that way until the batteries are exhausted anyway? 
Even my 8 year old doesnt do that. 

And Ive yet to see anyone mention a light thats made like this one, with the same output and features, that isnt a lego....


----------



## Glock 22

Lodogg2221 said:


> And Ive yet to see anyone mention a light thats made like this one, with the same output and features, that isnt a lego....



Perfectly stated.:thumbsup:


----------



## kyhunter1

Yes, but neither a reflector or TIR has any effect on output regulation. 



270winchester said:


> Isn't the m31 using a reflector?


----------



## FPSRelic

GLOCK 22 said:


> When I come to the conclusion that I don't like something, I get rid of it and forget about it. My advice is to just to forget about it if you don't like it; don't buy it and be done with it. Again, as I stated earlier in the thread, let us wait until some members that will use it in the real world, then give us feedback. We could look at graphs all day long, but until actual users put it to the test, we won't have reliable results until then. I mean really it's not even been recieved by just a couple. I'll take twenty or thirty CPF'ers input on what they really think of it, and what I think of it when I get it on Monday. Lets not jump to a fast conclusion and trash a light that is just now been released. Graphs don't mean anything to me, it's what the light will actually preform when I get it, and if it don't meet my standards I'll put it on the marketplace and take a loss on it.



Agreed. I too think it's a little too early to write off the eb1. I'll wait until I and a number of others actually own one before passing judgement. 

If people want better runtime on high, they would be better served with an E1L with a KX1B head IMO. Now if Surefire made a tactical version of that, how would that go for a replacement to the L1?


----------



## 270winchester

kyhunter1 said:


> Yes, but neither a reflector or TIR has any effect on output regulation.



It does when it narrows down choices of LEDs that can be utilized without breaking the project budget.

M31 module: Reflector, single mode, not clip and no clickie unless you have existing E-series body and tail cap

EB1: TIR, dual mode, clickie or L1 style tail cap included.

The config is not even close between the two. I like Malkoff products but it is a poor comparison.

This post sums it up:



Lodogg2221 said:


> And Ive yet to see anyone mention a light thats made like this one, with the same output and features, that isnt a lego....


----------



## twl

Well, I sincerely hope that the "target audience" enjoys it.

It isn't doing anything to make me reach for my wallet.


----------



## Lucky Duck

EB1 Tactical is up on the 'bay, 17th Street Photo. $154.00 plus shipping, 10 sold so far.


----------



## kyhunter1

Poor comparison, not really. I understand completely that the M31 does not offer what the EB1 does. But laying all aside, it provides 200+ stable OTF lumens in a single cell format smaller than the EB1, and with a older less efficent emmitter. My whole point is that SF should have used a better driver in the EB1. I like TIR lights, but the EB1 is out at the moment for me unless somebody sells one real cheap. 



270winchester said:


> It does when it narrows down choices of LEDs that can be utilized without breaking the project budget.
> 
> M31 module: Reflector, single mode, not clip and no clickie unless you have existing E-series body and tail cap
> 
> EB1: TIR, dual mode, clickie or L1 style tail cap included.
> 
> The config is not even close between the two. I like Malkoff products but it is a poor comparison.
> 
> This post sums it up:


----------



## 270winchester

kyhunter1 said:


> Poor comparison, not really. I understand completely that the M31 does not offer what the EB1 does. But laying all aside, it provides 200+ stable OTF lumens in a single cell format smaller than the EB1, and with a older less efficent emmitter.



I'm not totally up on my LED knowledge. But here are some random thoughts:
-Which LED does the M31 use? In other words if it so easy to have a 200+ lumen 1 cell TIR light I'm sure Gene would have offered it
-By not having to have a two-mode driver, does the M31 get to use a more efficient driver?



> My whole point is that SF should have used a better driver in the EB1. I like TIR lights, but the EB1 is out at the moment for me unless somebody sells one real cheap.



And they will be improving it. Like I said, if you know of a one CR123 cell, TIR, two mode light with 200+ lumen for a whole hour, share the knowledge. 

Do you have one in mind? If you have the know-how to help Surefire to construct such a driver, I'm sure they have a job for you. Or show us the alternative. 

Either they are at the bleeding edge of performance for this particular niche of lights, or the super-secret engineer friend of Brianna is terrible at his job.


----------



## brianna

Lodogg2221 said:


> So I have to ask. Since you know someone, inside, that no one else in the general public would know, how come Robin got an EB1 to test and you havent seen one yet? ..



If you go back a few pages you will see I had one before Robin. I also had solid information since last summer on that light.


----------



## twl

270winchester said:


> I'm not totally up on my LED knowledge. But here are some random thoughts:
> -Which LED does the M31 use? In other words if it so easy to have a 200+ lumen 1 cell TIR light I'm sure Gene would have offered it
> -By not having to have a two-mode driver, does the M31 get to use a more efficient driver?
> 
> And they will be improving it. Like I said, if you know of a one CR123 cell, TIR, two mode light with 200+ lumen for a whole hour, share the knowledge.
> 
> Do you have one in mind? If you have the know-how to help Surefire to construct such a driver, I'm sure they have a job for you. Or show us the alternative.
> 
> Either they are at the bleeding edge of performance for this particular niche of lights, or the super-secret engineer friend of Brianna is terrible at his job.



The predecessor to the M31, which was called the M30, had a TIR optic and 235 lumens, using an XRE emitter.
At its 1.1 amp draw rate, it should last over an hour on a single 1500mah CR123 primary, and stay in regulation the whole time.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

270winchester said:


> And that's the bottom line. You play with your lights and you are spoiled.





270winchester said:


> yeah but in that case brianna will lose the superduper secret source with access to information that no one else has, for without him there won't be any more vague confidential information for us.





Bullzeyebill said:


> Let's not be getting carried away with emotions here and start to belittle fellow members. Let's be polite and remember CPF rule 4.
> 
> Bill


Winchester 270, you are belittling/flaming/baiting members with such statements, also the last sentence in your last post. Please desist from such behavior. It would be good if you deleted those statements. Please PM me if you have concerns about my actions.

Bill


----------



## LGT

I tink it's time for a :grouphug:. I, for one, will wait to read what the members who buy the EB1 think about it. Anyways, I hope all of you that celebrate Thanksgiving have an enjoyable day.


----------



## Lodogg2221

Well, with regard to the Malkoff....it will cost $101 just for the peices to add to your E1B. Assuming of course you have one, which would have set you back well over $100.

Buying one instead of the EB1 will cost you well over the cost, and still be a single mode light. 
Sure its a great light, but its still a lego. And we still dont know for sure what the EB1 will do. 
I wont go on one test alone. As others have said, wait and see what others have to say once they have had a chance to use it for a while.


----------



## kyhunter1

Dont be so quick to make assumptions. Gene moved away from TIR's because of beam issues. As another member already posted, the former M30 used the XRE led and produced 200+ stable lumens for a hour with a TIR optic. The XRE has much lower efficiency than what is available to us today. 



270winchester said:


> I'm not totally up on my LED knowledge. But here are some random thoughts:
> -Which LED does the M31 use? In other words if it so easy to have a 200+ lumen 1 cell TIR light I'm sure Gene would have offered it
> .....




No. It's a known fact that some manufacturers/builders take mulit-mode drivers and program every mode to hi so that the light appears to be single mode. The M31 uses Gen 1 XPG led's. 200 lumens for a hour on one cell is not a problem for the technology we have now regardless of whether it's in a reflector or TIR. 



270winchester said:


> .....
> -By not having to have a two-mode driver, does the M31 get to use a more efficient driver?
> 
> ....




The technology is available now to do just exactly what you said. Most companies use a reflector because it's easier. Your right in that no other company is offering a EB1 style light that can do 200 lumens for a whole hour. But, it is not impossible which is my point for this post. Gene was capable of it years ago, and several others are now. Foursevens for one has the technology if they decided to go the TIR route. I checked the specs on the website for their single 123 cell tactical quark and it showed over 200 lumens for a hour. The quark tactical is a two mode progrmmable light. It used Gen 2 XPG's. Im sure that the reflector in it could be easily pulled and replaced with a TIR. Several others I want mention. 



270winchester said:


> ....
> And they will be improving it. Like I said, if you know of a one CR123 cell, TIR, two mode light with 200+ lumen for a whole hour, share the knowledge.




Im sure I could teach surefire more than a thing or two about flashlights. Several of the CPF modders are well capable of the alternative, it's just a matter of affordability. 



270winchester said:


> .....
> Do you have one in mind? If you have the know-how to help Surefire to construct such a driver, I'm sure they have a job for you. Or show us the alternative.
> 
> ....


----------



## brianna

I have been on this forum for 10 months. In all my short time here, I don't think I have seen a single Surefire thread that did not end poorly.


----------



## Lodogg2221

Im sure its got nothing to do with all the Surefire bashing that goes on in the Surefire threads.

Some people just wont be convinced that Surefire is worth the cost, plain and simple. They think the cheaper Chinese lights are on par quality wise, and refuse to be convinced otherwise. 
Some people will never be pleased with whats released because they built it up in their own mind into something it could never be. They maybe saw a couple rough pre-release specs and built it up from there, the longer the wait, the more it builds. Once you do that, its tough for much of anything to meet your expectations. Goes for a LOT more than just lights....
Still others seem to think that piecing a light together is worlds better than buying a complete unit thats made to work and last just about forever as an assembly. Or having a custom builder mod an existing light to make it better. Nevermind that some legos, and specifically the Malkoff mentioned above, is a lot larger in diameter, and customs end up costing WAY more than even Surefires. 

Glock22 stated it best....if you dont like it, move on. Nothing to see here. 

Im a Surefire junkie. Started with a G2 nitrolen when they first came out, and bought LOTS more since. There are lots of lights of theirs I like, and lots I dont. 
Guess what? I dont bother with the ones I dont like. The ones I do I buy, funds allowing. 

A mod said that someone was trolling/bating, and while I wont presume to know better than them, I would suggest that the negative responses in this thread were the original bait...and some of it was taken and responded to. And yet some of them still come back saying the same things over and over, still baiting, or rather trolling or maybe chumming the waters.


----------



## Bearlight

There is no such thing as perfection, especially in a product that is to be mass produced, not custom designed to an individual's desires.

I guess one of the challenges is that the advance of high powered LEDs in efficiency and power is geared towards the holy grail of replacing mainstream lighting such as the humble lightbulb invented by Thomas Edison over a hundred years ago!

The flashlight market pales in comparison, let alone the flashaholic market. My assumption is that surefire's primary market is conservative by nature, they want a product that does the job reliably, often in very specific roles. 

One of the challenges that surefire must face is selecting LED's for their product based on longevity, reliability and consistency. What the general public sees is runtime and lumen numbers! Things like regulation TIR, and reflector design, spill beam and hotspot parameters would get lost on them, let alone the pros and cons of various LED design parameters like its angle of view and surface brightness that determine which reflector or TIR design is better. They just see the total lumens and runtime and is the thing easy to use or is it cool!

It reminds me of the megapixel debate with cameras. More megapixels is not alway better, but that is what the public understands hence the megapixel war. Yet many people who buy an SLR camera don't use it to its full extent, and the resulting pictures good or bad are usually due to the photographer and not to the camera.

Flashlights, like cameras are simply tools, if they work for you then buy them, if not buy something else.

BTW I just purchased a NIB L1 10/65 lumen but will still buy the black tactical eb1 when it finally arrives down under!

Cheers!


----------



## 270winchester

kyhunter1 said:


> Dont be so quick to make assumptions. Gene moved away from TIR's because of beam issues. As another member already posted, the former M30 used the XRE led and produced 200+ stable lumens for a hour with a TIR optic. The XRE has much lower efficiency than what is available to us today.



Single mode, needs a donor to get a tail switch, etc, etc.




> No. It's a known fact that some manufacturers/builders take mulit-mode drivers and program every mode to hi so that the light appears to be single mode. The M31 uses Gen 1 XPG led's. 200 lumens for a hour on one cell is not a problem for the technology we have now regardless of whether it's in a reflector or TIR.



Then it shouldn't be a problem for any one of the multitude of light makers out there to throw a TIR optic on an M31-equivalent module, program a low mode, and shame the Surefire EB1 with its superior output, beam, and value. 




> The technology is available now to do just exactly what you said. Most companies use a reflector because it's easier. Your right in that no other company is offering a EB1 style light that can do 200 lumens for a whole hour. But, it is not impossible which is my point for this post. Gene was *capable* of it years ago, and several others are now. Foursevens for one has the technology *if* they decided to go the TIR route. I checked the specs on the website for their single 123 cell tactical quark and it showed over 200 lumens for a hour. The quark tactical is a two mode progrmmable light. It used Gen 2 XPG's. Im sure that the reflector in it *could* be easily pulled and replaced with a TIR. Several others I want mention.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im sure I could teach surefire more than a thing or two about flashlights. Several of the CPF modders are well capable of the alternative, it's just a matter of *affordability.*




So no viable alternatives then.

Again if you have an actual alternative that we can choose instead and can kick the EB1 to the curb, share the knowledge. Otherwise all the "if...could.....capable...matter of affordability....I could teach Sure a thing or two" is bigger vaporware than the LX1.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

PM sent to Winchester 270.

Bill


----------



## brianna

Lodogg2221 said:


> Im sure its got nothing to do with all the Surefire bashing that goes on in the Surefire threads.
> 
> Some people just wont be convinced that Surefire is worth the cost, plain and simple. They think the cheaper Chinese lights are on par quality wise, and refuse to be convinced otherwise.
> Some people will never be pleased with whats released because they built it up in their own mind into something it could never be.



It is true. In my mind I did expect the new EB1 to be on par with the old E1B. It did take Surefire 4 years to upgrade this model. I expected great things for this light. I expected a more efficient emitter to be used, better regulation, longer run time with more brightness. 

After 4 years what we got is a bright flash in the pan that dims fast with poor regulation. It is not like next year Surefire will upgrade this model again. It will most likely take 4 to 5 years to see the next back up model. This is where all the mean stuff happens and negative feedback that can lock a thread down.


----------



## Bearlight

I just had a look at the review from where the e1b runtime graph came from... 

It was the 80 lumen version, this means, for that version, at 1 hour was putting out 90% which is, 72 lumen.

At 1 hour, the surefire eb1 puts out 30% of it's max, which, if it is 200 lumen max, that would be 60 lumen, a difference of 12 lumen! 

At 1.5 hours, the eb1 appears to put out 20 lumen while the e1b about 24. I cannot however seem to find a runtime graph for the 100 lumen version. 

Interesting...


----------



## Lodogg2221

Bearlight, thats the trouble. LOTS of people in this thread are jumping to conclusions based on one review that, by the way, isnt even finished yet. 
Based on one graph from one unfinished review they are throwing the light under the bus, and Surefire with it. 

Will Self-bilt review one eventually? Someone else maybe? 
Who knows, but Id wait for at least one full review (which might be done before the tactical version is even in stock at some places), along with some real world use before I go throw myself off a cliff because a light isnt what I think it should be.

Ill say this too. Robin24k does a great job with reviews, but they are, as are all reviews, filled with his own take on things. 
I read his review on the Lawman and thought it was ok, but not what I had hoped for. 
I bought the light, because based on Surefires specs and info, I knew it would be worlds better for me than any other light out there, and the fact Im a SF nut helped too, but after getting it, I was much happier with it than I thought I would be based on that review. Didnt like the stiff tailcap switch much, but thats being attended to by THE master custom light builder right now, and even if it couldnt be fixed, it was good enough as it was. 
Point being, Im glad that we trust others still, but when it comes to something we ourselves had high hopes for, it might make a bit more sense to wait and see what others say....they might have a completely different take on it, and thier tests might show something a bit different too.


----------



## Bearlight

I agree. 

I am skeptical of pure numbers in a graph and prefer to see real world use. I thought as a comparison though, it is interesting. If those two graphs are taken at face value, that means that the eb1 is still almost twice as bright in the first twenty to thirty minutes as the e1b the other graph is based on, after that, there is little difference between the two.

If that is true in real world use, then that is a significant improvement on the e1b, plus the fact that there is a tactical version which for me is the ideal interface. I really see no problem with this light at all, it appears that it starts out twice as bright, but at the 1 hour and 1 1/2 hour mark it is so similar in brightness to the eb1 graph that it doesn't appear to 'dim rapidly' to me.

It looks like a very promising light and I await other peoples take on it when it gets into more hands. 

(I seem to remember there was a lot of criticism of the a2 aviator based on raw numbers too, but it was and still is a classic light. It had to be used to be believed!)


----------



## Viking

Bearlight said:


> I just had a look at the review from where the e1b runtime graph came from...
> 
> It was the 80 lumen version



Can you give a link please. I would like to read that review


----------



## twl

Bearlight said:


> I agree.
> 
> I am skeptical of pure numbers in a graph and prefer to see real world use. I thought as a comparison though, it is interesting. If those two graphs are taken at face value, that means that the eb1 is still almost twice as bright in the first twenty to thirty minutes as the e1b the other graph is based on, after that, there is little difference between the two.
> 
> If that is true in real world use, then that is a significant improvement on the e1b, plus the fact that there is a tactical version which for me is the ideal interface. I really see no problem with this light at all, it appears that it starts out twice as bright, but at the 1 hour and 1 1/2 hour mark it is so similar in brightness to the eb1 graph that it doesn't appear to 'dim rapidly' to me.
> 
> It looks like a very promising light and I await other peoples take on it when it gets into more hands.
> 
> (I seem to remember there was a lot of criticism of the a2 aviator based on raw numbers too, but it was and still is a classic light. It had to be used to be believed!)



Not "twice as bright".
Double the lumens is only 3db brighter, and not anywhere near "twice as bright".
On the other side of the coin, that 10 or 12 lumens difference at the fading end of the run time chart is less than a 3db difference too, and that isn't going to be actually noticed as a difference by many people either.

Even after it drops to 100 lumens, it is doing that over a time period, and you would barely even notice it. Maybe if you took out a fresh EB1 and compared it against the EB1 with a half-depleted battery, then maybe you'd see it more easily, but it's still not big.
The dropping power WILL affect the throw distance, though.


----------



## Flashlight Dave

With everyone concerned with the cliff dive of the light I would like to remind people of the old L1 which had no regulation on high if I am correct. Which light did Robin24k test? It looks from the group photos that he has both the tactical and the clicky. I am wondering if the cliff dive is somehow similar.


----------



## 270winchester

brianna said:


> It is true. In my mind I did expect the new EB1 to be on par with the old E1B. It did take Surefire 4 years to upgrade this model. I expected great things for this light. I expected a more efficient emitter to be used, better regulation, longer run time with more brightness.
> 
> After 4 years what we got is a bright flash in the pan that dims fast with *poor regulation*.













> It is not like next year Surefire will upgrade this model again. It will most likely take 4 to 5 years to see the next back up model.



Oh? Did your insider engineer say this? 


> This is where all the mean stuff happens



clearly those of us who put money down on the EB! are just, what was it, oh yeah, 



brianna said:


> Some people just don't know any better, and will purchase anything. you are really no different then the average Joe on the street purchasing a plastic flashlight.








> and negative feedback that can lock a thread down.



So far the negative feedback has all come from people who haven't actually seen a retail sample.


----------



## brianna

Bearlight said:


> I just had a look at the review from where the e1b runtime graph came from...
> 
> It was the 80 lumen version, this means, for that version, at 1 hour was putting out 90% which is, 72 lumen.
> 
> At 1 hour, the surefire eb1 puts out 30% of it's max, which, if it is 200 lumen max, that would be 60 lumen, a difference of 12 lumen!
> 
> At 1.5 hours, the eb1 appears to put out 20 lumen while the e1b about 24. I cannot however seem to find a runtime graph for the 100 lumen version.
> 
> Interesting...



Yes this is true, but even when the E1B was said to be only 80 lumens it really was 110 lumens. Many forum members thought the new upgrade in lumens was caused by a change in the way Surefire measured lumen output. 
I was able to use a commercial integrating sphere using both the 110 and the 80 lumen version. My 80 lumen was purchased in 2008 and measured a few lumens over the new 110 version. 
This is also my personal reason for thinking it never was 80 lumens from the start. 90 % of 110 lumens is 99 lumens. So this would be a 39 lumen increase over the EB1.


----------



## brianna

_270winchester, the personal problem you seem to have with me is not constructive. Keep it to your self:kiss: _


----------



## 270winchester

brianna said:


> _270winchester, the personal problem you seem to have with me is not constructive. Keep it to your self:kiss: _



Bullseye Bill, is this within CPF guidelines? If a simple "gotya" was out of line, please clarify how the guideline draws the line.


----------



## Robin24k

Flashlight Dave said:


> Which light did Robin24k test? It looks from the group photos that he has both the tactical and the clicky. I am wondering if the cliff dive is somehow similar.


Both, but both lights use the same head.


----------



## Bearlight

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...y-Surefire-E1B-Backup-(Beamshots-and-runtime)

Here is the link to the review.


----------



## Flashlight Dave

Robin24k said:


> Both, but both lights use the same head.



Pardon my ignorance but what I am wondering is if the regulation of the light is similar to the L1 due to the two formats, one being the two stage tactical switch. I am not clear on how the L1 operates but could it be that in order to make the EB1 compatible for both formats that it ends up with regulation similar to the L1?


----------



## Robin24k

I doubt that's the case. Mode switching should not be related to regulation.


----------



## Bearlight

Robin24k, does the eb1 appear to be putting out more than the advertised 200 lumens?


----------



## Robin24k

It's only an estimate, but I'm guessing around 220-250 lumens with LFP123A's.


----------



## Bearlight

Thankyou, 

So if that's the case, my previous number comparison (meaningless I know) still holds up...

Twice the lumens from the start, thru to twenty to thirty minutes, then an insignificant difference in lumen output at the one hour and one and a half hour mark.

Still looking forward to real world comparisons, and if I still had my light meter, I would do a comparison myself when the thing finally arrives down under, but even better, I will take them down to the park and see the difference with my own eyes


----------



## Glock 22

*Robin24k *Is the low mode the first or the second press on the clicky one?


----------



## Robin24k

It's high then low for the EB1C.


----------



## Glock 22

Thanks *Robin24k* just as I thought.


----------



## Kestrel

twl said:


> The predecessor to the M31, which was called the M30, had a TIR optic and 235 lumens, using an XRE emitter.
> At its 1.1 amp draw rate, it should last over an hour on a single 1500mah CR123 primary, and stay in regulation the whole time.





kyhunter1 said:


> As another member already posted, the former M30 used the XRE led and produced 200+ stable lumens for a hour with a TIR optic. The XRE has much lower efficiency than what is available to us today. [...]



Just to supply a clarification on the Malkoff M30, the above information is not correct; I have used the Malkoff M30 extensively and although it did have a regulation circuit, it did not perform nearly as well as people are describing, and did not exhibit "regulation" as the common vernacular has it, i.e. 'regulation' = flat regulation. Please note the information below, comparing the "regulation" of the M30 to the standard Malkoff M60:



MrGman said:


> M30 on a regulated power supply at various voltages and the current draw there of.
> 1.5V 0.84A 1.26W-----
> 2.0V 0.88A 1.76W-----
> 3.0V 0.97A 2.91W------
> 3.2V 1.00A 3.20W
> 3.6V 1.10A 3.96W-----
> 4.0V 1.29A 5.16W-----
> 4.2V 1.42A 5.96W------
> 4.5V 1.60A 7.20W
> 5.0V 1.89A 9.45W
> 
> M60__from Regulated power supply,
> Volts___amps___watts______,
> 3.0_____0.09____0.27__,
> 3.2_____0.22____0.70__,
> 3.5_____0.38____1.33__,
> 3.6_____0.51____1.84__,
> 3.8_____0.66____2.51__,
> 4.0_____0.86____3.44__,
> 4.2_____1.08____4.54__,
> 4.5_____0.85____3.83__,
> 4.7_____0.88____4.14__,
> 5.0_____0.80____4.00__,
> 5.5_____0.74____4.07__,
> 6.0_____0.69____4.14__,
> 7.0_____0.60____4.20__,
> 7.9_____0.56____4.42__,
> 8.0_____0.53____4.24__,
> 8.4_____0.50____4.20__,
> 8.5_____0.49____4.17__,
> 9.0_____0.47____4.23__,
> 9.5_____0.45____4.28__,
> 
> From what I have seen you can't get maximum brightness of an M30 with the voltage available of only 2 C alkalines or 2 C NiMH. You could get it with 3 Alkalines if they hold up but it won't be for long. The output is not well regulated power wise. Increasing and decreasing the voltage did cause brightness changes. The changes in power consumption does correspond to output. [...]



Note with the data above that the M60 consumed a relatively constant amount of power from 9.5Vin all the way down to ~4.2Vin.
However, look at the power consumed by the M30 over its rated voltage range of 5.5v down to ~1.5v - it compares to the ~240 lumen M60 at ~3.7Vin, but after that - look out below. At ~2.5Vin from 1xCR123, it is doing only ~150 lumens at its ~2.5 watts and is dropping quickly from there.

I had many dozens of hours on my M30 and became disenchanted with it compared to the M60 - it did do ~240 lumens initally *with a 3.7v LiIon*, but output declined immediately as voltage of the fresh cell dropped. On a 3v CR123 primary, its initial output was ~150 lumens - which also declined substantially during cell depletion - the opposite of 'flat' regulation as we like to think of it.

When the M31 came out, it was truly a revolutionary improvement over the M30: ~240 lumens of truly *flat* regulation for *40-45 minutes* from a single CR123 primary. Please feel free to review the main Malkoff M31 thread for more information on this - folks forget that the M31 was a vast improvement over the M30, both in output, efficiency, and *flat* regulation.

Our 1xCR123 benchmark should be the Malkoff M31 - the M30 does not even begin to compete.


----------



## AutoTech

All this fuss and it's not even a pretty little light lol

The E1E is a little beauty, what we need is an E1E with 200lm.. And not that awful led head conversion that looks like a half cocked foreskin lol. 

Please make an E1E in classic design with led guts surefire!


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Regarding the M30, what Kestrel mostly said. I did have the opportunity to do some runtimes with the M30, with !8650's, and 2X NiMh's. I had talked to Gene, and the M30 was a hybrid, essentially. Part voltage regulated and parted current regulated, and more voltage than current, if that makes sense. I have lost my runtime graphs, but I recall that the M30 did excellent with one 18650, with a steady decline of output, that was verrrrrrry slow trending down ward, so slow that for all practical purposes it was running flat. When I used 2X Eneloops, it dropped in out put (bounce with lightmeter), but again showed a very, very, slow decline in output. I would estimate 130 lumens starting and so slowly declining in output that it too could be considered a flat runtime. 

The M30 is an awesome drop-in, able to sustain up to 6+ volts imput (2XCr123's), I did that. I kept mine and still use it.

Bill


----------



## doctordun

Any release date yet for the Tactical?
Got one on order. 
This will be my second Surefire and my second expensive flashlight. I am very excited. 
I may become a flashaholic like most on this board.


----------



## Bearlight

I hope that the head will fit on my e2l aa body as well, making this a valuable addition to my bug out bag...
while I have plenty of cr123's they are hard to get in Australia and usually expensive.


----------



## Kestrel

I haven't been keeping up with this thread so today I read up on the posts since the infamous runtime graph was posted:



Robin24k said:


>




I am reminded of the *SureFire M3LT's* posted runtime graph on 'high' from turboBB's review. The interesting thing was that the immediately declining output curve from 3xCR123 had some similarities the runtime graph currently under discussion. Interestingly, the 2x17500 graph didn't decline nearly so much as from the 3xCR123 configuration - seemed pretty voltage-dependendent to me, i.e. 2x17500 providing a flatter voltage curve than 3xCR123:



turboBB said:


>



Note that the 3xCR123 & 2x17500 runtime graph above is ostensibly for a 'buck' circuit, taking ~7.5 Vin down to ~6V for the MC-E in the M3LT. There is more to this than something inherent in a SF boost circuit ...

At the time, some had dismissed the lack of flat regulation for the M3LT on 3xCR123 as the light just asking too much of the three CR123's. Perhaps there was greater intent to the design than was originally thought. For better or worse, it looks like this behavior may sometimes be a design goal for SF, whether for *1xCR123 in a 'boost' circuit* (first graph above, the EB1) or *3xCR123 in a 'buck' circuit* (the second graph above, the M3LT)? :thinking:

Just thinking out loud here...


----------



## Bearlight

In thinking about it, the slow taper of a non regulated light is better in situations where you don't have time to change out the battery, for example, if I am attending an emergency as an EMT, I don't want a light that will suddenly fail on me, nor do I usually need it to run more than 20 min at a time. A regulated light with short runtime is a true cliff dive in that one minute you have heaps of light, then, suddenly you have none. At least if you notice it starting to dim with a non regulated light, you have time to finish what you are doing before you have to change out the battery.

Much more useful in a single cell backup light with not much juice, especially compaired to my three cell invicticus which has 7 hours runtime at 160 lumens. And 14 hours at 80 lumens. 

It is well designed for its primary purpose, a backup light that doesn't take up a lot of room in my pocket.


----------



## kyhunter1

Im with you on not being stuck in the dark in a bad situation. I like my old E1B, it has been a personal favorite for years. At the end of it's high output regulated runtime, it automatically drops to low mode. It stays there for quite a while till the cell eventually drains out. This is the ideal setup for me as it never leaves me totally in the dark without warning. My E1B has been packed almost every single day for the last four years. Lights can have flat regulation without leaving you in the dark. I hoped the EB1 would be the same. The reviews look otherwise, but we will have to wait and see when more members get their lights in hand.


----------



## Viking

Bearlight said:


> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...y-Surefire-E1B-Backup-(Beamshots-and-runtime)
> 
> Here is the link to the review.




Thanks


----------



## Bearlight

Agreed, lights with regulation can have a low mode. I do like the e1b, but I find the low mode too low for emergency work, and don't really like that sudden drop to low. My old led maglite used to slowly taper, and I usually prefer that, with the U2 and the invicticus you drop down a level or two, not all the way to the bottom.

But, each to their own.


----------



## brianna

In 2008 when the E1B first came out. It was advertised as a small duty light for a undercover officer without ripping up your clothes because of the smooth melted design. Also it was touted as a back up light for a regular uniform cop. So it was meant either for a main carry light, or a back up to another light.


----------



## FPSRelic

brianna said:


> In 2008 when the E1B first came out. It was advertised as a small duty light for a undercover officer without ripping up your clothes because of the smooth melted design. Also it was touted as a back up light for a regular uniform cop. So it was meant either for a main carry light, or a back up to another light.



The marketing for the E1B was that it was developed with input from Las Vegas detectives IIRC. Realistically, you'd only want to use one as a main carry light in the event that you're not planning on using it a lot. Otherwise you're better served using something else.

Like Kestrel pointed out, there are a number of other Surefire lights that do not offer a flat regulation on high output. The Invictus, like the M3LT, appears to be another. All of the flat regulation seems to be reserved for the lower output modes.


----------



## Bearlight

The invicticus is regulated on high for 45 min according to selfbuilt's review

Here is the link

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...123A)-Review-BEAMSHOTS-RUNTIMES-ANALYSIS-more!


----------



## davyro

doctordun said:


> Any release date yet for the Tactical?
> Got one on order.
> This will be my second Surefire and my second expensive flashlight. I am very excited.
> I may become a flashaholic like most on this board.



I don't know the exact date it's getting released but i willing to bet you'll be really happy with it,Surefire make great lights & i don't think you'll be disappointed just like i don't think i will be either
being a flashaholic can be a bit expensive now & again but no where near as expensive as a lot of other hobbies so jump in & enjoy the ride.:thumbsup:


----------



## Lodogg2221

Im hoping the tactical is available soon too....will be the cheapest Surefire Ive bought in a while...lol.


----------



## FPSRelic

Bearlight said:


> The invicticus is regulated on high for 45 min according to selfbuilt's review
> 
> Here is the link
> 
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...123A)-Review-BEAMSHOTS-RUNTIMES-ANALYSIS-more!



Which is pretty good IMO, but it owes me another hour of runtime based on Surefire's specs. The output after that 45 mins is continuous decline. And is that 45 mins running at 800 lumens? Selfbuilts graphs measure in relative output as opposed to lumens. I notice there is a spike at the start of the graph followed by that close to flat 45 monitor regulation. 

I guess the whole point I'm making here is that the Invictus does not run at 800 lumens for 1.7 hours, just as the EB1 doesn't run at 200 lumens for 40 minutes. Somehow, maximum output and maximum mode runtime were married with the introduction of regulation (I think the Surefire A2's 50 lumens for the bulk of it's runtime of 50 minutes is a good example of this). At some point along the line, they've gotten divorced. 

Now the whole question here is is the EB1 actually regulated on high at all?


----------



## Bearlight

Part of the problem is the nature of marketing. You only want to put a limited amount of information on the box and on any advertising, otherwise most customers will get confused. 

Can you imagine a box which said New, 250 peak lumen, with a regulated runtime of 200 lumens for 45 min, then tapering to 20 lumens in 1 hour!A 45 degree flood beam with a 12 degree hotspot and a 30 degree corona, with a peak lux of....Etc etc etc!
Information overload.

Most consumers probably just want a reliable bright flashlight that does the job, has decent runtime and is not too confusing to use. The trouble for us flashaholics is that a few simple numbers on a box don't tell the whole story and we sometimes invent our own story to fill in the gap!

But that's where reviews like those from robin24k and selfbuilt, satisfy the technically minded, and the user reviews from those that are actually using them for what they are intended satisfy the rest..

And it is those reviews that we now await!


----------



## pjandyho

Bearlight said:


> Part of the problem is the nature of marketing. You only want to put a limited amount of information on the box and on any advertising, otherwise most customers will get confused.
> 
> Can you imagine a box which said New, 250 peak lumen, with a regulated runtime of 200 lumens for 45 min, then tapering to 20 lumens in 1 hour!A 45 degree flood beam with a 12 degree hotspot and a 30 degree corona, with a peak lux of....Etc etc etc!
> Information overload.
> 
> Most consumers probably just want a reliable bright flashlight that does the job, has decent runtime and is not too confusing to use. The trouble for us flashaholics is that a few simple numbers on a box don't tell the whole story and we sometimes invent our own story to fill in the gap!
> 
> But that's where reviews like those from robin24k and selfbuilt, satisfy the technically minded, and the user reviews from those that are actually using them for what they are intended satisfy the rest..
> 
> And it is those reviews that we now await!


Totally agree. Personally I don't really care much about runtime and tapering output. I guess I am not one of those user who would run my lights on high output all the way. And even when it tapers in output, I don't really notice it. I am not saying that I can't be bothered totally. What I am saying is that these have never been the criteria I look for when doing a purchase. It is good to know, but honestly it is not that important.


----------



## Robin24k

FPSRelic said:


> Somehow, maximum output and maximum mode runtime were married with the introduction of regulation (I think the Surefire A2's 50 lumens for the bulk of it's runtime of 50 minutes is a good example of this). At some point along the line, they've gotten divorced.
> 
> Now the whole question here is is the EB1 actually regulated on high at all?


Not necessarily...it depends on the type of regulation. Step-down regulation combines maximum output and extended runtime, but flat regulation sacrifices runtime. It's two different schemes of regulation, and for higher lumen lights, flat regulation would not produce enough runtime for practical use.


----------



## FPSRelic

Robin24k said:


> Not necessarily...it depends on the type of regulation. Step-down regulation combines maximum output and extended runtime, but flat regulation sacrifices runtime. It's two different schemes of regulation, and for higher lumen lights, flat regulation would not produce enough runtime for practical use.



Are you referring to my first point about brghtness and runtime? or my question about the EB1?


----------



## Robin24k

Well, both actually. The EB1 is regulated with step-down regulation.


----------



## FPSRelic

Bearlight said:


> Part of the problem is the nature of marketing. You only want to put a limited amount of information on the box and on any advertising, otherwise most customers will get confused.
> 
> Can you imagine a box which said New, 250 peak lumen, with a regulated runtime of 200 lumens for 45 min, then tapering to 20 lumens in 1 hour!A 45 degree flood beam with a 12 degree hotspot and a 30 degree corona, with a peak lux of....Etc etc etc!
> Information overload.
> 
> Most consumers probably just want a reliable bright flashlight that does the job, has decent runtime and is not too confusing to use. The trouble for us flashaholics is that a few simple numbers on a box don't tell the whole story and we sometimes invent our own story to fill in the gap!
> 
> But that's where reviews like those from robin24k and selfbuilt, satisfy the technically minded, and the user reviews from those that are actually using them for what they are intended satisfy the rest..
> 
> And it is those reviews that we now await!



Yes, it's definately a marketing thing. Kudos goes to Surefire for putting the bullet point in regarding the runtime to 50 lumens


----------



## FPSRelic

Robin24k said:


> Well, both actually. The EB1 is regulated with step-down regulation.



Both? My first point is that the expectation of people is that the light will be it's quoted maximum output for the bulk of the stated runtime. I guess you could say that people expect regulation to be flat regulation. Step down regulation by it's very nature, proves my point that maximum output is no longer going to be for the bulk of stated runtime. 

As for the EB1, well there you go.


----------



## Robin24k

Maximum output for the bulk of the runtime is only one type of regulation, and it does tend to be overemphasized. It's not practical because for high output lights, and it pushes the limits of the battery, LED, and/or thermal path.

There's a point where runtime becomes too short, junction temperature becomes too high, or heat production becomes too much for users to hold the light comfortably, and getting close to these limits compromises practicality, reliability, and/or usability.


----------



## Bearlight

Robin24k, 

From what you are saying, I am guessing that's why the invicticus can handle 800 lumens for 45min, whereas the R1 and the UNR only have a Short burst mode on maximum as they have far less thermal protection than the invicticus.

As from what I read here on Cpf, surefire is conservative in its pushing the led to its power limits to enhance reliability and long life, then by the same extension, could thermal control be another major factor in the regulation choices for the eb1. After all, there is not much metal available to draw the heat away from the led!


----------



## brianna

Bearlight said:


> Robin24k,
> As from what I read here on Cpf, surefire is conservative in its pushing the led to its power limits to enhance reliability and long life, then by the same extension, could thermal control be another major factor in the regulation choices for the eb1.



The real problem here is the fact that Surefire chose to use a older less efficient LED. Now it is drawing so much current from the single cell battery that it is pushing the limits of the battery. So now we have a light that looks like it has no regulation. 
The load on the battery is so heavy it will get hot along with the LED producing heat. This could have been avoided if they simply used a more modern LED. Surefire is my favorite, but why they never want to use better technology in LEDs is very frustrating.


----------



## Bearlight

While newer LEDs may be more efficient, they are not often designed with flashlights as their primary market, so there other parameters may not have met surefires design goals. There is more to choosing an led for your design than just it's efficiency, or how new it happens to be! 

For example, I quite like the soul p4, most of my favorite surefires use that led, and it is nowhere near the brightest or most efficient, but it is in no way redundant or 'outdated' if it does the job you want it to do.


----------



## FPSRelic

Bearlight said:


> While newer LEDs may be more efficient, they are not often designed with flashlights as their primary market, so they the other parameters may not have met surefires design goals. There is more to choosing an led for your design than just it's efficiency, or how new it happens to be!
> 
> For example, I quite like the soul p4, most of my favorite surefires use that led, and it is nowhere near the brightest or most efficient, but it is in no way redundant or 'outdated' if it does the job you want it to do.



I agree. 

XP-E is the only way you could upgrade the emitter without killing the throw. If they had upgraded it to XM-L or even XP-G there either would have been less throw with more flood like all of those 500 lumen for 20 minute single cell screamers out there, or an even bigger optic would have been needed. XR-E has always been my favorite emitter due to it's throw. As far as I know, it's still the best for this based on equivalent output from other emitters. I have heard that XP-E comes close.

Personally, I'd be happy if the EB1 has throw that matches the old LX2. Even at 15 lumens it can light up objects at fairly decent distances.


----------



## brianna

LEDs of a more efficient nature designed with flashlights in mind could have been used for this light. I feel the reason they went with the older LED was because of the TIR optic. They did not want to have to redesign it. Now we have great flashlight with a sophisticated optic using out of date LED technology running with very poor regulation.

If they used this LED and only put out 150 lumens with it, I think regulation would have been flat with a longer high run time. Looks like they got caught up in the lumen war. This is not the way to go.


----------



## Bearlight

I don't think that is the reason as it is a re designed optic, the e1b has a one inch bezel diameter while the eb1 is after at 1.1 inches..


----------



## FPSRelic

brianna said:


> LEDs of a more efficient nature designed with flashlights in mind could have been used for this light. I feel the reason they went with the older LED was because of the TIR optic. They did not want to have to redesign it. Now we have great flashlight with a sophisticated optic using out of date LED technology running with very poor regulation.



As Bearlight has said. The optic looks definately redesigned. As I have said before, the reason I beleive that Surefire doesn't commony upgrade the emitter in their optic based lights is that even a small change in emitter would require a change of optic in order to focus the beam properly. As far as I know, the only light that may have gotten away without it is the M3LT going from MC-E to XM-L, and even then I'm not sure if they re-did the optic or not.

The big benefit of Surefire's TIR lights is that you get more throw out of a head that's small, adding to the pocketability of the light. I'm happy they stuck with it.



brianna said:


> If they used this LED and only put out 150 lumens with it, I think regulation would have been flat with a longer high run time. Looks like they got caught up in the lumen war. This is not the way to go.



150 lumens would not have been enough of an upgrade over the E1B's 110 lumens. I agree that Surefire is in the lumen war. They have to to compete. I actually suggested that Surefire actually started the lumens war way back in the day, based on their old catalogues, in the 6PX/G2X thread: 








But that did not go down well.


----------



## Viking

FPSRelic said:


> Personally, I'd be happy if the EB1 has throw that matches the old LX2.



I would also very much like to know the answer to that question.


Hopefully one of those who buy the new EB1, will also be in possession of an LX2 and a light meter. And can directly compare the lux readings from both.


----------



## Glock 22

If someone could do a Lux reading of the LX2 and post it. I'll do a Lux reading on the EB1 when I get it on Monday, and we could compair them. Would this idea work and be helpful?


----------



## Robin24k

What's the peak beam intensity of the LX2? The EB1 is 12,000cd based on my measurements at 2 meters and using LFP123A's.


----------



## Viking

GLOCK 22 

Please post your lux readings when the EB1 arrives. I can't get enough of those.


But to be sure , I think the readings has to be done with the same meter , and probably also the same guy handle it. The lux readings from other flashlights varies a bit. 

My LX2 measures 8500 lux at 1 meter distance , on fresh batteries.
The Light meter is an Extech EA30


----------



## Robin24k

For TIR optics, 1 meter is probably not enough distance for the beam to be fully focused. ANSI FL1 requires at least 2 meters, if not 10 meters.


----------



## Viking

OK I didn't know that


----------



## Bearlight

According to their 2012 catalogue, the eb1 is user programmable via the USB dongle.

That way you could set it to a lower output with better runtime. Looking at that step at the 60% mark in Robin24k's runtime graph, I am guessing that at around 140 to 150 lumens you would get a flat regulation. 

This is a pretty cool feature of these lights, keep it simple for those who really couldn't care, but still the ability to customize for those that do! 

Now the question is, are surefire still going to produce this programmable dongle, and if so, when?


----------



## moshow9

I am not overly familiar with Surefire lights. I do own the Surefire II pen (it is a beast) and have an E1B Moal being built. 

From an outsiders perspective (as I do not think it has been mentioned here), with regards to the size of emitter being limited due to the optic could an XP-E2 have been used? To be honest, I have not compared the spec sheets on the two, but I believe the XP-E2 would have better efficiency over the original, while having slightly better output and throw (although I could very well be wrong here).


----------



## Glock 22

Viking said:


> GLOCK 22
> 
> Please post your lux readings when the EB1 arrives. I can't get enough of those.
> 
> 
> But to be sure , I think the readings has to be done with the same meter , and probably also the same guy handle it. The lux readings from other flashlights varies a bit.
> 
> My LX2 measures 8500 lux at 1 meter distance , on fresh batteries.
> The Light meter is an Extech EA30




I'll post it as soon as it gets here. Thanks for doing the LX2 Lux reading.


----------



## Federal LG

I can´t wait to see a full review with tons os pics!


----------



## Robin24k

You can see preview pictures here:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...n-Flashlight&p=4068895&viewfull=1#post4068895


----------



## Snareman

Bearlight said:


> According to their 2012 catalogue, the eb1 is user programmable via the USB dongle.



That would be cool if that's the case. I might like a little lower low.


----------



## Brasso

Needs a lanyard ring. But otherwise a really cool light from Surefire. They managed to finally make a light exactly how I mod all my other Surefires.


----------



## Robin24k

There's a hole at the top of the pocket clip for attaching lanyards.


----------



## Viking

GLOCK 22 said:


> I'll post it as soon as it gets here. Thanks for doing the LX2 Lux reading.



Splendid.
looking forward to it


----------



## pjandyho

Robin24k said:


> There's a hole at the top of the pocket clip for attaching lanyards.


It's probably the most impractical design if that's the case. We all know how easily the pocket clip breaks. In fact, it was designed to break for safety reasons.


----------



## Robin24k

Wouldn't a break-away lanyard be practical, for the same reason as a break-away pocket clip?

I know that 5.11 Tactical includes break-away lanyards with their lights for situations where somebody grabs your light to try to get control of your arm.


----------



## pjandyho

Robin24k said:


> Wouldn't a break-away lanyard be practical, for the same reason as a break-away pocket clip?
> 
> I know that 5.11 Tactical includes break-away lanyards with their lights for situations where somebody grabs your light to try to get control of your arm.


I don't think anyone using a lanyard would use it in a tactical situation. Most use a lanyard just so as to hang the light on their neck when the light is not in use, like myself. If the lanyard is attached to a fragile and breakable clip, then one might just break the clip accidentally and loose the entire light. That's when you will start cursing yourself when you need a light urgently and realized that it is gone.


----------



## FPSRelic

The current e1b doesn't have anything to connect to a lanyard. If anything, the little hole is a step up from the old model.


----------



## Blindasabat

The break-away feature is not primarily for tactical reasons, but for safety. If the lanyard is around your neck as you say, then there are a multitude of situations where it could be caught at an inappropriate time and strangle you. Most lanyards for holding IDs, access badges, or other items around the neck include break-away features and are certainly not meant for tactical situations. My work issued me several like this and every trade show I go to does as well. If your badge (or light) gets caught in some moving or spinning machinery, you could be pulled in so fast that you have no time to react and even move to remove it.


pjandyho said:


> I don't think anyone using a lanyard would use it in a tactical situation. Most use a lanyard just so as to hang the light on their neck when the light is not in use, like myself. If the lanyard is attached to a fragile and breakable clip, then one might just break the clip accidentally and loose the entire light. That's when you will start cursing yourself when you need a light urgently and realized that it is gone.


----------



## pjandyho

Blindasabat said:


> The break-away feature is not primarily for tactical reasons, but for safety. If the lanyard is around your neck as you say, then there are a multitude of situations where it could be caught at an inappropriate time and strangle you. Most lanyards for holding IDs, access badges, or other items around the neck include break-away features and are certainly not meant for tactical situations. My work issued me several like this and every trade show I go to does as well. If your badge (or light) gets caught in some moving or spinning machinery, you could be pulled in so fast that you have no time to react and even move to remove it.


I of course understand the need to design the lanyard to break away. I am not saying that it shouldn't be done this way. What I am saying is that the double sided clip provided by Surefire is too fragile and would break away when it is not intended to. Although I can't be sure about the clip on the EB1 since I have yet to see any reference to it, but many users of the LX2 has had clips broken even doing simple things like pulling the light out from their pockets, getting into the car when the angle of the butt causes the clip to bend a little, or accidentally brushing against the edge of a cabinet. I just can't imagine relying on the clip for lanyard carry.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

After previously promising myself that I would wait for more reviews before commiting, I got caught up in the enthusiam of this thread and purchased an early run SF EB1 with a three digit 'A' series serial number. I don't have any inside sources at SF and I live outside the Southern California Reality Distortion Field. 

Not a review, I'll just offer some initial observations and opinions on the EB1 light that I have.

I've got the black clicky model that Robin24K has displayed in the preview link above. Lately I've been carrying a late model SF E1B with a Z68 tailcap. The Z68 lets the E1B tailstand so you can use it in candle mode, surprisingly useful for a one cell light in my experience. Also the Z68 helps to grip the small light while you actuate the clicky switch. As others have commented, the EB1 clicky wobbles when you put it on its tail. At least it has a clip to keep it from rolling which I like.

The EB1 clip is longer than the E1B clip but shorter than the one on the LX2. Unlike with some other SF lights, the EB1 clip doesn't scrape the tailcap when you turn it. As previously reported, the tailcap thread location and the size of the spring are different on the E1B and EB1 so the tailcaps are not interchangeable. The clicky switch mechanism seems to be the same as in other recent SF lights but the tail spring is noticeably longer than others. The familiar three copper colored conductors are in the tailcap to give the lockout functions as in other clicky SF's.

The head of the EB1 seems to be in three sections rather than two, someone with a hair dryer and a couple of strap wrenches will surely soon investigate the construction.

Looking at the TIR, there is a subtle orange peel or diffuser effect when compared to other small SF TIR lights. Didn't some variants of the L1 have something like this? The UB3T has this diffuser appearance as well but it's a different size and design with a fresnel component it seems.

The antireflective coating on the lens seems to be greenish rather than purple in the other SF lights I have here on the table for comparison.

The EB1 clicky looks kinda like an evolution of the E1B with the Z68 so I took them out in the woods last night for a comparison.

The beams from the two TIR lights look very similar in size and light distribution. However, even in the brown winter woods my example of the EB1 has a loud greenish cast compared to the E1B. On low the green tint is even more pronounced.

As the 2012 SF catalog observes in the LX2 Ultra writeup on page 39, the human eye is most sensitive to this greenish-yellow tint so maybe this is one of them 'specially selected LED's' that it talks about. Whatever the case, this is the greenest white LED SF light that I have, remniscent to me of the early Fenix XR-E's of years ago.

I would say the 200 lumens output looks reasonable to my eye even if it is just for the first few minutes of battery life. The retail packaging proudly trumpets the runtime on the side as 1.3 hours on high and 40 hours on low with no asterisk. On the front of the box the 40 hours is labeled 'useful runtime'.

My light came in the familiar retail red and black picture box with the black corrugated box inside. There is a clear plastic holder in the inside box and warranty, warning and user manual sheets. Unfortunately, a spot of glue seemed to stick the outside picture box to the inner box and I had to tear the outer box to get to the light.

Some sort of RF ID chip and antenna is on the side of the inner box 'to discourage inventory shrinkage in urban retail venues' I suppose.

There is the customary SF warning to never use rechargeable batteries one sheet and the offer of accessories such as SF rechargeables and a charger on another small page stuffed in the packaging.

Rising to the challenge, I tried an AW RCR123 in the EB1. It flashes very briefly on high and then throttles back down to the coke bottle green low mode.

And speaking of packaging, the 'programmable' icon present in the 2012 EB1 SF catalog listing is conspicuously absent among the icons on the box. I get a funny feeling that it just ain't gonna happen but we'll see.


----------



## doctordun

Thank you very much for the revue.

My Fury has the same yellow/green cast to the beam. I have emailed Surefire twice, for an explanation, but never received a reply. I am hoping guessing that it one the the special LED's. It is most visible on the low beam.

I am patiently waiting for my new EB1 Tactical which is "SURE" to be shipping soon.......I hope!


----------



## Kestrel

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> [...] As previously reported, the tailcap thread location and the size of the spring are different on the E1B and EB1 so the tailcaps are not interchangeable. The clicky switch mechanism seems to be the same as in other recent SF lights but the tail spring is noticeably longer than others. [...]



Sounds like par for the course for SureFire these days: Die LEGO Die! :ironic:



Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> [...] The beams from the two TIR lights look very similar in size and light distribution. However, even in the brown winter woods my example of the EB1 has a loud greenish cast compared to the E1B. On low the green tint is even more pronounced.
> 
> As the 2012 SF catalog observes in the LX2 Ultra writeup on page 39, the human eye is most sensitive to this greenish-yellow tint so maybe this is one of them 'specially selected LED's' that it talks about. Whatever the case, this is the greenest white LED SF light that I have, remniscent to me of the early Fenix XR-E's of years ago. [...]



Definitely looking forward to going back to greenish tinted emitters.


----------



## Robin24k

doctordun said:


> My Fury has the same yellow/green cast to the beam. I have emailed Surefire twice, for an explanation, but never received a reply. I am hoping guessing that it one the the special LED's. It is most visible on the low beam.


With current controlled lights, it is normal for low output levels to have a greener tint.


----------



## twl

It seems to me that I read quite a few reports of greenish tint beams in many different XML lights.
I think it's pretty prevalent with those emitters.
It's not just SureFire.


----------



## Kestrel

twl said:


> It seems to me that I read quite a few reports of greenish tint beams in many different XML lights.
> I think it's pretty prevalent with those emitters. It's not just SureFire.


Except aren't the inital reports that it's still using an XP-E? Excellent neutral-tinted emitters of this well-established product line have not been difficult to implement, AFAIK.



Robin24k said:


> It's here...it uses an XP-E.
> [...]
> it can't be an XP-E2.



If SureFire wasn't going to sweat the tint, an XP-E2 might have been a better choice, and it would have been trivial to check to see if the newer emitter is compatible with their existing TIR optic. For all we know, this up-to-date emitter might go into future EB1's (sort of how the M3LT went from the MC-E to the XM-L shortly after its release)?

For all the talk about how SF holds the line when it comes to a concept (like making sure that the EB1 retains a high degree of throw by forcing an emitter that is well-matched to the existing TIR), I am reminded of the two following *major* shifts in their product concepts:


Floody SureFire L2 (w/ shallow reflector) to the throwy SF LX2 (w/ TIR) as its replacement
SureFire Aviator (Throwy Hi CRI incan) to floodier SF A2L (w/ the standard bluish P4 that they'd been using for years) as a replacement

Nothing is forcing SF to retain the TIR implementation on this particular light, they must want to do it this way.
Have LEO's (the intended market) preferred the TIR in their 'Backup'? How have they most often utilized this light in the past?


----------



## twl

Kestrel said:


> Except aren't the inital reports that it's still using an XP-E?



Yes, I should have quoted the Doctordun post that I referred to, regarding his comment about his Fury being greenish.


----------



## 880arm

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> After previously promising myself that I would wait for more reviews before commiting, I got caught up in the enthusiam of this thread and purchased an early run SF EB1 with a three digit 'A' series serial number.



Congrats and thanks for sharing your observations. Even though I was one of the first to complain about the runtime graph after Robin posted his review, I couldn't resist ordering one last week. Hopefully it will be here Tuesday! I think I will conduct my own mini-review as well.

Interesting observation about the 'programmable' icon. Does anyone know whether these icons have been present on the packaging for the Lawman and UNR?


----------



## Lodogg2221

880arm said:


> Congrats and thanks for sharing your observations. Even though I was one of the first to complain about the runtime graph after Robin posted his review, I couldn't resist ordering one last week. Hopefully it will be here Tuesday! I think I will conduct my own mini-review as well.
> 
> *Interesting observation about the 'programmable' icon. Does anyone know whether these icons have been present on the packaging for the Lawman and UNR*?



My Lawman R1 box does display the programmable icon....


----------



## RedForest UK

As far as I know, the way lumens are measured already takes into account the sensitivity of the human eye. This is why royal-blue LEDs have low lumen per watt instead of the highest (which technically they should be). 

This is probably a strong reason why the highest binned emitters tend to have a greenish tint, it's simply because those with a green cast to them come out of the binning process rated higher output.

This means that Surefire's claimed reasons behind the selection of such 'yellow-green' tinted LEDs is clever (or misleading, depending how you look at it) marketing. This effect is accounted for in the lumen numbers already, so they really shouldn't be able to claim the benefits twice, but they effectively are. e.g. a greenish LED will appear brighter than a non-greenish one, but a greenish 80 lumens of light will not appear brighter than an equivalent non-greenish 80 lumens of light.


----------



## Lodogg2221

They arent misleading anyone. They are using them because they render colors better to the human eye than a true white light. 
Why do some non-whitewall hunters like incans better than leds? Color rendition.
Leds have had issue on a large scale with accurate colors, or even close colors.

Surefires newer offerings are better in that regard than they ever were, and some of their lights are a bit better still. 

They tell you about it, and why they do it, so how is that misleading at all? 

Its hard for some to think that Surefire wont cater to white wall hunters I know...they leave that to everyone else.


----------



## RedForest UK

Erm.. I'm not sure why you would think that, I won't take you up on whether a 'green-ish yellow' light actually has the better colour rendition than others (personally I would say it is better than say a blue/purple tinted one, but clearly not as good as a neutral tint or a more balanced spectrum in general).

But Surefire's claim that they chose green/yellow LEDs because the eye is more sensitive to med wavelength light is clearly to imply that it will mean that the light appears brighter. 

I am simply pointing out that, while their claim is correct, any implied brightness benefit would already have been accounted for in the rated lumen output in the other specifications. So, their implication that the greenish-yellow tint will make it seem brighter may be true, but is null in relation to the other already declared specifications. Anyway, I actually meant that this was clever marketing, but that it _could _be seen as misleading.


----------



## doctordun

I believe that Surefire intends the yellow/green tint to better assist in blinding an assailant since that is the color spectrum that eyes are most sensitive to.
At least that was my interpretation. I don't recall any implication that the light would appear brighter.
This is in their FAQS:
"The human eye responds most strongly to light nearest the 560 nanometer wavelength, which is a yellow-green color."
"SureFire uses integrating sphere photometers to measure the total lumen output of our illumination tool's, weighted with respect to human eye response."

I am new to this, so my interpretation lacks scientific facts.


----------



## 880arm

I see your point but I don't think one statement nullifies the other or results in the benefits being "claimed" twice. I would equate it to an auto manufacturer touting a new, improved, or specific engine design which results in improved performance and then backing it up with the horsepower or torque numbers.


----------



## RedForest UK

880arm said:


> I see your point but I don't think one statement nullifies the other or results in the benefits being "claimed" twice. I would equate it to an auto manufacturer touting a new, improved, or specific engine design which results in improved performance and then backing it up with the horsepower or torque numbers.



Yeah, that's a fair interpretation. It depends how you look at it really. 

I was just making the point to remind people who may think that it meant that the light may appear brighter than another light of the same lumen output.


----------



## Lodogg2221

RedForest UK said:


> Erm.. I'm not sure why you would think that, I won't take you up on whether a 'green-ish yellow' light actually has the better colour rendition than others (personally I would say it is better than say a blue/purple tinted one, but clearly not as good as a neutral tint or a more balanced spectrum in general).
> 
> But Surefire's claim that they chose green/yellow LEDs because the eye is more sensitive to med wavelength light *is clearly to imply that it will mean that the light appears brighter. *
> 
> I am simply pointing out that, while their claim is correct, any implied brightness benefit would already have been accounted for in the rated lumen output in the other specifications. *So, their implication that the greenish-yellow tint will make it seem brighter may be true,* but is null in relation to the other already declared specifications. Anyway, I actually meant that this was clever marketing, but that it _could _be seen as misleading.



I guess Im missing where they implied it would be brighter....all Ive ever seen from them is ANSI lumen ratings, and a few statements about human eye responding to certain wavelengths of light.
Your conclusion is a pretty big jump given their history of marketing and downplaying most of their ratings to the point that most of us know their lights will put out more lumens than Surefire tells us they will.

Now I guess you could jump all over them for that, and tell them how you demand they take said extra lumens away....but I think you will be alone in that endeavor, lol.

Seriously though, I really dont see how you get to your conclusion of claiming benefit twice....


----------



## RedForest UK

I think I made my view on it clear in my previous posts, I am not jumping to the conclusion that they are claiming it twice. Just that they have made the comments in a way which could (and I believe has been by many) interpreted that way.

If you look at it as an explanation for why their latest lights have a green cast to them, that is fine. But when they make the point that they are using LEDs with a higher proportion of the wavelength to which the human eye is most sensitive to, they are clearly saying that with regards to implications for the brightness of the light. That is the justification for it. 

This could be a benefit due to making the 'blinding' effect greater in 'tactical' situations, or simply due to making the light appear brighter. My point was simply that any added brightness is already accounted for in the lumen values, so it is not additive. 

Whether you want to think that Surefire meant to imply that there was an additive effect or not is up to you.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Some more early musings on the EB1...



Lodogg2221 said:


> My Lawman R1 box does display the programmable icon....



I just checked, my early model UB3T in packaging very similar to the EB1 does not have the programmable icon on the picture box either. The outer packaging from a year ago looks very much the same with some but not all of the text in English, French, Spanish and German.

Looking a little closer at the previously mentioned diffuser effect in the EB1, it seems like the optical surface just under the glass lens is roughened slightly. I can't tell without disassembly whether there is a separate thin transparent layer or the actual front surface of the TIR optic has this frosted texture. The UB3T has a similar effect and the EB1 appears to me to have a somewhat coarser granularity in the diffusive optical surface. It is possible that the roughness is actually on the back side of the borofloat glass lens but I would think this would be easier to achieve with a plastic component. It looks like whatever is used does help smooth the beam and remove the 'polar view of Saturn' TIR effect when white wall hunting.

Many folks don't care much about the markings on a product but sometimes subtle details indicate manufacturing changes within a model run. Also, years later these seemingly trivial pursuits can help collectors classify a piece and verify its authenticity. I'll offer some observations on this newly acquired light.

The markings on the EB1 body are very similar to those on the E1B. Early E1B's had 'BACKUP' in italic caps on one side and the SF logo and the serial number on the other side. At some point the full numbers for the '415, '485 and RE '125 patents were added to the BACKUP side, perhaps related to the legal action discussed in a thread over on CPF Marketplace Manufacturer's Corner.

My EB1 has the patent numbers and slightly larger 'BACKUP' marking of the later E1B versions. The several E1B's that I've bought all seem to have the stylized FCC and CE approval logos on the bezel, these are missing on the EB1. The familiar triangular 'CAUTION HOT SURFACE' is present on the new light.

The extra length of the EB1 body along with the shorter tail shroud ring on the clicky model give an extended grip over the E1B/Z68 combo and I like this with my large clumsy hands. I wish that the tail shroud ring was just a little deeper to allow the light to tail stand without wobbling.

The new version of the Backup is well balanced in the hand longitudinally, unlike the earlier discussed E1B/VME/Malkoff combo which to me is very nose heavy. Of course, as the light gets longer it approaches the size of the SF LX2 which has twice the battery capacity.

Back out in the real world tonight, the EB1 seems to slightly outshine an old LX2 while spotting varmints in the back forty on a cold moonlit evening. For Brasso's benefit I popped an RCR 123 in a gen 6 SF L1 for comparison and the EB1 again seems to have a slight edge although I don't know for how long since it was cold and I needed to come back in.

The green tint is not too bad on high as long as you don't compare it to another light. At least that is what I'm trying to convince myself. On low, the sickly tint is hard to ignore.

My previous worst tint SF was my first E1B from years ago. Someone here mentioned that a certain Chinese LED head would fit and I ran it as a Frankenlight pocket rocket for a while. I've reassembled the old E1B and, you know, after seeing the EB1, maybe the old light is not so bad after all. 

I don't know if the tint lottery has come back and I lost or if SF is actually selecting green tints because that is what the human eye is most sensitive to as implied in the ad copy. I'm trying to rationalize my purchase but this tint just doesn't appeal to me. :sick2:


----------



## Glock 22

Where did you order your's from? And it's a no go on a RCR correct?


----------



## brianna

I think you just got unlucky in the tint lottery. I had one 80 lumen version and two 110 lumen models. All three of them had a really nice creamy white tint. I think in general the tints for the E1B have been excellent.
The green tint makes me feel like I am in a monster movie. I have that in my minimus. I think in that model all the tints are bad.


----------



## Quiksilver

Isn't TrustFire coming out with an EB1 soon? I hear its 454 lumens and only $20, looks exactly like the SF EB1 as well.


----------



## djdawg

Quiksilver said:


> Isn't TrustFire coming out with an EB1 soon? I hear its 454 lumens and only $20, looks exactly like the SF EB1 as well.



This is the first time Ive heard this name ........ is there really a company called Trustfire ????? are they any good ??


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Let's not go OT here. We are discussing the EB1.

Bill




Quiksilver said:


> Isn't TrustFire coming out with an EB1 soon? I hear its 454 lumens and only $20, looks exactly like the SF EB1 as well.





djdawg said:


> This is the first time Ive heard this name ........ is there really a company called Trustfire ????? are they any good ??


----------



## Coup de Grace

Quiksilver said:


> Isn't TrustFire coming out with an EB1 soon? I hear its 454 lumens and only $20, looks exactly like the SF EB1 as well.


Not directly addressing the Trustfire, rather the EB1. But the appeal around the EB1 is at least 200 real lumens with great throw using the TIR lens. I don't think Trustfire can make anything like that.


----------



## RedForest UK

djdawg said:


> This is the first time Ive heard this name ........ is there really a company called Trustfire ????? are they any good ??



Yeah there is, although I'm pretty sure the last poster's comments about them making an EB1 were a joke. They didn't used to be that good, and still aren't on par with the UI and consistent build quality of brands like Surefire and Zebralight, (and of course their lumen ratings are well OTT) but recently they have come out with some really good and surprisingly high quality offerings at very good prices. The key ones being the TR-3T6 and TR-J12 if you want to look into them further.

Probably not a good topic within this thread though so I'll leave it at that.


----------



## FPSRelic

I'm almost glad that they don't sell these in Oz yet. I'd be onto one in a heartbeat if they did. Not sure if I should wait for the LX2 Ultra though. More than likely I'll do the normal CPF thing and get both


----------



## Lodogg2221

FPSRelic said:


> I'm almost glad that they don't sell these in Oz yet. I'd be onto one in a heartbeat if they did. Not sure if I should wait for the LX2 Ultra though. More than likely I'll do the normal CPF thing and get both



Thats what Im doing. 
Except in addition, Ill need a 2nd mortgage, because I also want the X300, UM2 Ultra, and UBR Invictus.
Then I MIGHT be done buying Surefires for a while.


----------



## Viking

I haven't decided whether to buy EB1 , or the new upcoming LX2 or the LX2 Ultra.
However, I have decided I will only buy one of the three.


I will wait for the reviews of LX2 and LX2 Ultra before I make my choice.

I hope both will be launched at the beginning of the new year.


----------



## brianna

Took 4 years to see a upgrade on the E1B to the EB1. May be another few years before we see the new 500 lumen LX model.


----------



## twl

brianna said:


> Took 4 years to see a upgrade on the E1B to the EB1. May be another few years before we see the new 500 lumen LX model.



By that time, we will have been thru another 2 or more generations of newer LEDs. There's no telling what might be the LED of choice in 4 years from now.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

GLOCK 22 said:


> Where did you order your's from? And it's a no go on a RCR correct?



I ordered mine from B&H just after they sent the e-mail alert that it was in stock. I hesitate to discuss SF price and availability here too much after cautions from the mods that such talk belongs over on the CPF MarketPlace.

As far as I can tell the AW RCR123 does not work with my example of the EB1. I tried one battery fresh off the charger and another that was partially depleted. In both cases, there is a brief flash on high and the light shifts to the greenish low mode.



Kestrel said:


> Sounds like par for the course for SureFire these days: Die LEGO Die! :ironic:



Some good news in the Lego department, although the tailcaps seem to be intentionally designed not to interchange, the heads do swap. The first time I tried it I thought things didn't work, I probably didn't tighten the threads sufficiently.

I have in front of me an E1B/Z68 with the EB1 head and an EB1 clicky body with an E1B head. Both combos work great. I am so tempted to leave the EB1 head on the E1B body with the Z68 so it will tailstand without the wobble.

Unlike the E1B head, the EB1 head has a spring contact for the positive end of the battery. Lights like the SF 6PX Pro without the spring in the head seem to be more prone to mode switching when bumped from reports here on CPF.


----------



## Robin24k

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> As far as I can tell the AW RCR123 does not work with my example of the EB1. I tried one battery fresh off the charger and another that was partially depleted. In both cases, there is a brief flash on high and the light shifts to the greenish low mode.


I get the same behavior with freshly charged LFP123A's too, although the lights work fine after draining the battery for a couple minutes using low. Haven't heard back from SureFire about it though, their engineers got all of last week off.


----------



## Glock 22

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> I ordered mine from B&H just after they sent the e-mail alert that it was in stock. I hesitate to discuss SF price and availability here too much after cautions from the mods that such talk belongs over on the CPF MarketPlace.
> 
> As far as I can tell the AW RCR123 does not work with my example of the EB1. I tried one battery fresh off the charger and another that was partially depleted. In both cases, there is a brief flash on high and the light shifts to the greenish low mode.





Thanks. Same place mines coming from, I wish the RCR would have worked like the 17670 did in the Fury no problems there.


----------



## Viking

Robin24k said:


> I get the same behavior with freshly charged LFP123A's too, although the lights work fine after draining the battery for a couple minutes using low. Haven't heard back from SureFire about it though, their engineers got all of last week off.



I never take my LFP's directly from the charger and use them. I always let them rest first , to the voltage has dropped down to a stable level.


Have you tried that ?


----------



## Fubs

I hope I don't come off as.. uncaring, I've read most (if not all) of these posts but I'm relatively new to flashlight terminology. So, I'm not exactly sure what everyone is talking about. Can someone provide a summary of what everyone is discussing that is causing all the commotion? I'm stuck between buying the old E1B or the new EB1. I would prefer the one that can maintain max brightness the longest while maintaining a reasonable battery life. I say this because, if I remember correctly, it was mentioned in this thread of output dropping very quickly.


----------



## brianna

The E1B 110 lumen model has very flat regulation which means it keeps the max brightness for as long as possible. At one hour it is at 90 % and putting out 99 lumens. This I think is very impressive. The new EB1 loses brightness pretty fast. The regulation looks like a cliff dive. At one hour it is only putting out I think it was 30% or 60 lumens. That is about it in a nut shell.


----------



## Robin24k

Viking said:


> I never take my LFP's directly from the charger and use them. I always let them rest first , to the voltage has dropped down to a stable level.
> 
> 
> Have you tried that ?


That would work too. As long as the voltage has dropped below some certain value, it'll work fine.


----------



## Bearlight

Hi Fubs, 

The fuss is over a graph that measures brightness over the life of the batteries.

However this is just a graph, not real world performance. No one has yet posted comments on what it is like to actually use the light in the real world.

But, going by the graphs, the new eb1 will start out significantly brighter than the old e1b, and after 45 min,the new Eb1 will still be brighter! After that, for the next 45 min, it's brightness should appear to be the same as as the old e1b.

So, in a nutshell....

In real world performance there should be no problems with the new eb1, in my opinion.


----------



## Erzengel

Has anybody ever considered a runtime test in intervals of, say, 15 minutes with some cooling time between the single laps? This would help to find out, whether the step down is only a result of the regulation or of the generated heat.


----------



## Bearlight

Sorry, I will amend my previous post, Vox Calamatis In Deserto has posted that spotting animals at night, that the eb1 is brighter than an lx2 initially, but he didn't do a longer test at this stage.

That is positive results so far....


----------



## Lodogg2221

More like a few months. It was on their site once, taken down because it was causing confusion with dealers.

The X300 Ultra is already out and selling. VERY similar head. Could be the same LED/TIR. 
No reason at all that it will take 2 years....


----------



## Glock 22

I waited all day for the mail to run because my EB1 was suppost to be delivered today, and it was a no show.:hairpull: So I'll have to wait until tomorrow to post the Lux reading and review on it.


----------



## brianna

Bearlight said:


> Hi Fubs,
> 
> The fuss is over a graph that measures brightness over the life of the batteries.
> 
> However this is just a graph, not real world performance.



This graph is real world performance. This is exactly how the light will act in actual use. That graph shows how much light you will have over a given time. It does not get any more real then that.


----------



## Robin24k

Not necessarily...most users will not activate their lights continuously until the battery is fully discharged.


----------



## Bearlight

No the graph is not real world performance, it does not show you how your eyes will perceive the light in actual use, real world is about how well the light performs when using it to see things in the dark with your eyes. Not about sitting on a test bench shining at a lux meter.


----------



## brianna

The graph shows how much light and time you have to work with. Up close you may not perceive a difference, but as you get farther away you will. It is all about the graph. It shows you exactly what you have to work with. After 45 min the EB1 is pretty much over, compared to the E1b and after 45 min the new light only exceeds the old by 7 lumens. It really is all about sitting at a test bench.


----------



## Flashlight Dave

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> I don't know if the tint lottery has come back and I lost or if SF is actually selecting green tints because that is what the human eye is most sensitive to as implied in the ad copy. I'm trying to rationalize my purchase but this tint just doesn't appeal to me. :sick2:



As for surefire lights I have many. I have two 6th gen L1s one having perfect white tint while the other has a sickly deep green tint. I have a fury with perfect white tint while doctordum has a yellow green tint. I have a E1B with perfect white tint while others have mentioned theirs being green. My LX2 is slightly green.

In short I don’t think Surefire is cherry picking green LEDs for their lights. I think its just the lottery.


----------



## LGT

GLOCK 22 said:


> I waited all day for the mail to run because my EB1 was suppost to be delivered today, and it was a no show.:hairpull: So I'll have to wait until tomorrow to post the Lux reading and review on it.


I HATE when then happens. USPS tracking says out for delivery, the mailman stops by your mailbox, you go out to find THE package containing your new light, and all you see is junk mail!


----------



## Lodogg2221

It might be all about a test bench for you maybe, but for real world use, VERY few people put this type of light on high and leave it there for 45 minutes.
If it happens on a regular basis, you have the wrong light for your needs, plain and simple. 

Sporadic use will show a much different picture.

Now lets assume someone didnt correctly judge their needs and chose this light to use for extended periods on high, if its brighter for the first 45 minutes than the E1B, and the same (slightly more, but for the sake of this, we will say its the same) for the rest of the run-time, I fail to see the problem. 
If its over at 45 minutes, then so is the E1B. 

I guess Im still not getting how there is an issue with a light that runs just as long, but starts out twice as bright. Im also fairly certain Im not alone there....


----------



## Bearlight

To be quite frank, last night I was out in the dark with a Kroma that puts out 60 lumens via a tir, and in my pocket I had my e1b.

Most of the time I ran the Kroma on its low settings, and occasionally gave it a 60 lumen burst to make sure there was no one hiding around the corners or in deep shadow in the trees.

The e1b never left my pocket. In the real world,... 60 lumens was all I needed and that only occasionally. The eb1 will be above that for one hour of runtime according to Robin's excellent work.

I am beginning to understand why surefire rates it's runtime based on tactical performance, that is performance down to fifty lumens. Because, in the real world, fifty lumens is still a lot of light.

Of course it is nowhere near as bright as the fury at 500 lumens, but I never use it as it simply is too bright and dazzles my eyes


----------



## Brasso

I've found that I don't really need more than 100 lumens for daily uses. If you need more than that you need a larger, dedicated light. Not a pocket light.

No one complains about the Chinese pocket lights that put out 500 lumens......for 5 min....... before they self combust. LOL. 

It is what it is. They used an XRE for increased throw in a small light. I don't really think they considered it as a main duty light for extended run time. It's a "Backup". It slowly dims instead of just shutting off. i.e. it's tactical. Real world tactical. Not mall ninja tactical.


----------



## tonkem

Brasso said:


> I've found that I don't really need more than 100 lumens for daily uses. If you need more than that you need a larger, dedicated light. Not a pocket light.



I agree. I carry my e1L or my zebralight sc80. Both very small lights. I rarely need more than that, except for the wow factor.


----------



## Illumination

tonkem said:


> ... except for the wow factor.



Isn't that why most of us are still buying lights?

Objectively the lights I bought 5 years ago could handle all of my portable lighting needs; they just no longer give me the fix that I get from each new and amazing light...


----------



## tonkem

Illumination said:


> Isn't that why most of us are still buying lights?
> 
> Objectively the lights I bought 5 years ago could handle all of my portable lighting needs; they just no longer give me the fix that I get from each new and amazing light...



Sure. But the light that is the subject of this thread is not one of the wow lights. I was thinking zebralight s6330 or lupine Betty tls. Over 2000 lumens . Of course, different usage entirely.


----------



## pjandyho

Illumination said:


> they just no longer give me the fix that I get from each new and amazing light...


None of the lights today has given me the WOW factor. To me, they are just copies from one company to another.

edit: except HDS rotary of course


----------



## doctordun

What about us newbies. This will be only my second Surefire. It will be a WOW for me............

By the way...B&H Photo no longer shows the EB1 in stock. Must have sold out already.


----------



## Lucky Duck

It is currently available elsewhere!


----------



## Fubs

brianna said:


> The E1B 110 lumen model has very flat regulation which means it keeps the max brightness for as long as possible. At one hour it is at 90 % and putting out 99 lumens. This I think is very impressive. The new EB1 loses brightness pretty fast. The regulation looks like a cliff dive. At one hour it is only putting out I think it was 30% or 60 lumens. That is about it in a nut shell.





Bearlight said:


> Hi Fubs,
> 
> The fuss is over a graph that measures brightness over the life of the batteries.
> 
> However this is just a graph, not real world performance. No one has yet posted comments on what it is like to actually use the light in the real world.
> 
> But, going by the graphs, the new eb1 will start out significantly brighter than the old e1b, and after 45 min,the new Eb1 will still be brighter! After that, for the next 45 min, it's brightness should appear to be the same as as the old e1b.
> 
> So, in a nutshell....
> 
> In real world performance there should be no problems with the new eb1, in my opinion.



Thanks for explaining but the two of you seem contradict each other. Which of these would use the battery to it's fullest? I'm looking for the one that can maintain closest to high for the majority of the battery life.


----------



## Robin24k

What are your typical usage patterns? If you use your light in bursts, as law enforcement typically does, the increased output of the EB1 will make a bigger difference. If you use your light continuously, the flat regulation curve of the E1B will provide longer runtime.


----------



## brianna

Spoken like a true gentlemen Robin24. While I do not often run for long periods of time with the E1B. During hurricane Sandy I did run at high for long periods of time. Those 99 lumens were nice to have after a hour. The EB1 is bright from the start, but it really does get dimmer rather fast. I think for most people though, flat regulation is really nice to have. It gives you maximum brightness for the longest time possible. To me it just seems most useful. Not everyday is a emergency, but longest running brightness can be really nice to have.


----------



## Bearlight

I cannot wait to get the eb1, and try it for myself, but logic tells me that the eb1 will never be obviously dimmer than the e1b, but will be obviously brighter for at least the first half hour to 45 min, therefore, I would go the eb1

So both should practically last the same amount of time,one just starts brighter than the other


----------



## Fubs

It's going to be an EDC light/fun light for me. Maximum amount of time I plan on using would probably be five minutes on high (for surveying dark areas such as my backyard when my dogs bark). Otherwise, it would just serve EDC illumination purposes, the possible use of self-defense, and short burst of fun, dazzling light. I really want to get the longest life per battery though as I don't want to be purchasing batteries every month or every other month.


----------



## Viking

Robin24k said:


> That would work too. As long as the voltage has dropped below some certain value, it'll work fine.



Good to know.
My LFP's has dropped down to a steady level , after about a day on the shelf.




GLOCK 22 said:


> I waited all day for the mail to run because my EB1 was suppost to be delivered today, and it was a no show.:hairpull: So I'll have to wait until tomorrow to post the Lux reading and review on it.



I know how you feel


----------



## kyhunter1

I just want to add some more insight to this thread. The regulation issue cuts the EB1 out for me. The graph is very representative of what you all will experience with this light. For those of you that are wowed by the EB1's 200+ lumens TIR beam will be dissapointed for most of the runtime because output will be constantly declining. Even if you use it sporadicly, it will still be dimmer each time you turn it back on. Something not mentioned yet, what will happen is more frequent cell changes to get back the max lumen output. This light could end up costing you more in the long run in battery costs. Not a problem with a light that has real regulation. I would expect this from cheaper lights, but not from one that costs in excess of a $100. My old E1B turns on at max output everytime I hit the button till the cell is almost depleted, then it goes to Lo mode without leaving me completely in the dark. My favorite SF ever. I DONT hate surefire. I love and own several of their lights, and plan to buy from SF in the future. But truth is what it is whether some of you all like it or not. I for one hope that accepting poor regulation because of the company's name does not become the norm around here...... You lower the standards and other manufaturers will follow suite because anybody in the know with flashlights follows this forum.


----------



## maxrep12

kyhunter1 said:


> I just want to add some more insight to this thread. The regulation issue cuts the EB1 out for me. The graph is very representative of what you all will experience with this light. For those of you that are wowed by the EB1's 200+ lumens TIR beam will be dissapointed for most of the runtime because output will be constantly declining. Even if you use it sporadicly, it will still be dimmer each time you turn it back on. Something not mentioned yet, what will happen is more frequent cell changes to get back the max lumen output. This light could end up costing you more in the long run in battery costs. Not a problem with a light that has real regulation. I would expect this from cheaper lights, but not from one that costs in excess of a $100. My old E1B turns on at max output everytime I hit the button till the cell is almost depleted, then it goes to Lo mode without leaving me completely in the dark. My favorite SF ever. I DONT hate surefire. I love and own several of their lights, and plan to buy from SF in the future. But truth is what it is whether some of you all like it or not. I for one hope that accepting poor regulation because of the company's name does not become the norm around here...... You lower the standards and other manufaturers will follow suite because anybody in the know with flashlights follows this forum.


Well said.

Watching intelligent members engage in brand loyalty apologetics is embarrassing. The fury was a success, but does every SF light brought to market have to be met with scripted accolades?


----------



## kyhunter1

No, but that's what spoiled flashahaulics expect. 



maxrep12 said:


> Well said.
> 
> ......, but does every SF light brought to market have to be met with scripted accolades?


----------



## doctordun

I have a Tactical on order. I am holding out that real life impressions will be more informative and positive than one graph.
I cannot conceive of a situation where I would be using a flashlight for an hour straight. In case of emergencies, I have a couple LED lanterns that use D cells and light up a room quite nicely. I have used them over the years and love them. Flashlights are what I EDC and use around the house at night. I also have a 12volt LED spotlight the puts out 550 lumens for almost 3 hours.


----------



## Lodogg2221

You guys keep saying things about the E1B that Ive not seen backed up, and dont believe can be. 99% output after 1 hour? Where? I did a search of the forum for an E1B test, and couldnt find one that had an output graph for the 110 lumen. Found one for the 80, from someone I dont recognize as one of the major light reviewers. Maybe thats fine, I dont know, just used to seeing Robin, Selfbuit, etc...so I wonder about the graph there. Even assuming its correct, that particular E1B was only at 72 lumens at 70 min (90%, not 99% even if you wanted to use the same graph). 
I cant be the only one that would like to see one fore the newer 110 lumen version. 

Mine (110 lumen) certainly doesnt do that. Id guess it might be about 75% or less, but 99% after an hour? No way. Maybe you are less sensitive to changes in output than you think.
Mine gets low enough its barely distinguishable from low, but it is distinguishable. THEN it stays in low mode. 
Maybe mine is just a lot brighter initially than Kyhunter and Briannes. Who knows...

As far as changing batts to get max output again, why? Do you always need max every single time? Get a rechargeable then.

I dont know too many people that can tell the difference in lumens between 200 and 150 without the lights being side by side and whitewall hunting, which is kind of hard when you only have one light, which begs the question, how is it, (assuming that we are all just dazzled by the 200 lumen and TIR enough that we have to have this light based on that alone, regardless of the fact that a lot of us already have it in the LX2) that we are supposed to tell the difference and notice the constant cliff dive decline so we can change our batteries the second we notice it? (rhetorical)


And I literally LOL'd at your last sentence Kyhunter....you surely arent serious are you? Other manufactures still have a LOOOONG way to go to catch Surefire. LED bins and colors are not the be-all end-all with regard to light quality or "standards". For one, there are NO other manufacturers whose anodizing even comes close to Surefires, and that should be the easiest thing to get right. 
Please let me know what company would lower their standards because they think we lowered our expectations based on random posts in a thread not related to their lights. 
Id like to know, because thats a company I dont ever want to buy a product from. 

By the way, and this is just an observation, you mention you own several SF lights, and dont hate SF, and I can see that by your sig, but only one still uses SFs emitter....so it would seem you dont like them that much...except for use as hosts. Again, just an interesting observation....


----------



## Lodogg2221

maxrep12 said:


> Well said.
> 
> Watching intelligent members engage in brand loyalty apologetics is embarrassing. The fury was a success, but does every SF light brought to market have to be met with scripted accolades?





kyhunter1 said:


> No, but that's what spoiled flashahaulics expect.




Wait a minute kyhunter. Arent you one of the ones who said it was a outdated design and should have been able to have flat regulation? 

Id say you and a few others here were the only ones who had the notion that every Surefire light brought to market should be met with "scripted accolades". 
Some of us actually had realistic expectations. 

And Maxrep....really? Read your post again and see if you can find the problem. 
No? How can you say on the one hand that some of us are being apologetic for Surefires lack of perceived outrageous success with the EB1, but on the other claim that every SF light cant be met with "scripted accolades"? 
Makes ZERO sense....kind like some of the other arguments here.


----------



## djdawg

I just wanna see someone post some pics of this light.........
I have an E1B , is it the same ?


----------



## Lodogg2221

djdawg said:


> I just wanna see someone post some pics of this light.........
> I have an E1B , is it the same ?



Page 13 of this thread has lots of pics from Robin...


----------



## djdawg

Thanks ..... so it looks to be a little different (better IMHO)
I,d probably get it on that aspect alone


----------



## Kestrel

Please keep comments relevant to the light currently under discussion. Thanks,


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

maxrep12 said:


> Watching intelligent members engage in brand loyalty apologetics is embarrassing. The fury was a success, but does every SF light brought to market have to be met with scripted accolades?



Surely Sir (or Madam) you're not insinuating that what would be poor regulation and sickly green tint in a Chinese light would be described here in a SF EB1 as a brilliant scheme to steadily reduce perceived lumen output and thereby ensure thermal stability and battery life in a specially picked LED that maximizes output in the region of the spectrum optimum for human vision?

I would suggest that the 'scripted accolades' of SF products may have historical reasons here on CPF.

In the not too distant past, SF passed out swag to a lot of folks here in appreciation for their product ravings on CPF. Special PK editions of SF lights were issued and given as sentimental keepsakes to enthusiastic posters only to later mysteriously appear on eBay and the CPF Marketplace for exhorbitant asking prices. The faithful would tout their insider status with PK and reward him here with hagiography that would make Paula Broadwell blush. Gushing praise of SF products was the norm and criticism was not well received even when, in my view, it would lead to ideas for product improvement.

Something changed a year or two ago, PK dropped out of the SF catalog, quit posting here and has seemingly left the SF design department. As a result, some of the former PK loyalists now are even critical of the current SF product line as you can see in the SHOT Show thread cited below. The special PK editions, if they are still made, have gone well underground.

For those who are wondering who is this PK guy, more here: 

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...New-Products&p=3855277&viewfull=1#post3855277


----------



## Craig K

I was really looking forward to getting this new EB1 but after reading this thread and people saying about the regulation issue I am not sure I should get it, is this new EB1 no good? Should I stay away from it?


----------



## Bullzeyebill

kyhunter1 said:


> No, but that's what spoiled flashahaulics expect.





Lodogg2221 said:


> Y
> And I literally LOL'd at your last sentence Kyhunter....you surely arent serious are you?





maxrep12 said:


> Watching intelligent members engage in brand loyalty apologetics is embarrassing. The fury was a success, but does every SF light brought to market have to be met with scripted accolades?





Lodogg2221 said:


> Wait a minute kyhunter. Arent you one of the ones who said it was a outdated design and should have been able to have flat regulation?
> 
> Id say you and a few others here were the only ones who had the notion that every Surefire light brought to market should be met with "scripted accolades".
> Some of us actually had realistic expectations.
> 
> And Maxrep....really? Read your post again and see if you can find the problem.
> No? How can you say on the one hand that some of us are being apologetic for Surefires lack of perceived outrageous success with the EB1, but on the other claim that every SF light cant be met with "scripted accolades"?
> Makes ZERO sense....kind like some of the other arguments here.



You guys are being disrespectful to each other. Attack the post not the poster, otherwise this thread will be closing shorty. 

Bill


----------



## Bearlight

Disclaimer - I am in no way associated with surefire, or have ever received any benifits or freebies from them. I have never met PK, and bought my first surefire feb this year. I also have Fenix, jet beam, mag light, and led lenser lights.

I am not interested in cost, quality comparisons between the brands. My main point is dismissing a light, any light, based on one runtime graph that doesn't meet people's own expectations of how a light should behave, especially when there has been no real world testing to speak of. If once the eb1 is in the hands of a few people, and they post their impressions, outdoor beam shots etc, then if it dosnt meet expectations then fair enough, but until then we should give the light a chance no matter what the brand!


----------



## doctordun

All I know is that for years Surefire, for me, has stood for Reliability and Quality. 
I have lusted for them for years and finally have the means to get a couple. I got the Fury and love it.

As with my tools, when I could afford it, I always buy the best. I have purchased less quality tools and flashlights that eventually found their way to the trash.

I anxiously await the release of the EB1 Tactical. Since I am obviously a newcomer to quality flashlights, this is like Christmas to me.


----------



## N/Apower

This light is highly disappointing, if the information in this thread is correct.

Half a decade ago, we had better options. It was called a Malkoff M30. TIR optics, more output, flat regulated run-time, and plenty of it.

Surefire has re-invented the M30 with "direct drive" and less output is all I can see.

Fail, fail, fail.

Just my .02.


----------



## N/Apower

Lodogg2221 said:


> It might be all about a test bench for you maybe, but for real world use, VERY few people put this type of light on high and leave it there for 45 minutes.
> If it happens on a regular basis, you have the wrong light for your needs, plain and simple.
> 
> Sporadic use will show a much different picture.
> 
> Now lets assume someone didnt correctly judge their needs and chose this light to use for extended periods on high, if its brighter for the first 45 minutes than the E1B, and the same (slightly more, but for the sake of this, we will say its the same) for the rest of the run-time, I fail to see the problem.
> If its over at 45 minutes, then so is the E1B.
> 
> I guess Im still not getting how there is an issue with a light that runs just as long, but starts out twice as bright. Im also fairly certain Im not alone there....



You're very right, but I don't want to be constantly replacing the batteries in my weapons light (THat is how I view things, the EB1 is just a predecessor to the soon coming M300A upgrade) so that I get what I paid for. No, I would rather know I have 45 minutes or so of fully regulated run-time and then just replace the battery every now and then.

I have found that with lights like this, you don't know what you're missing until it screws you over. I bought an M61 SHO to test in my M600C/VME. For about 45 minutes I could NOT tell it was any less bright than "new". But after popping in new batteries, I was STUNNED at what I was missing. It decreases brightness VERY similar to how the EB1 does, which is to say, like an old incan light, and you don't know how much fail you're shining around until it screws you over/you can't see something you otherwise would EASILY see.

Again, this is user-preference. I want a regulated flat-line, then I want about a 30-50% drop off a cliff with a linear taper to 0.

That way I know that it's out of regulation and I NEED to replace the cells, I have enough light to tend to anything immediate, and it won't leave me stranded, but it isn't constantly getting weaker ALL THE TIME.


----------



## Bearlight

Now that's a fair assessment based on need... So if the eb1 doesn't perform for you in that specific need then it is not the right light for you. But as you say, it is user preference based on how the light will perform for your needs.

I have different needs it is not something I will be using to save my life, but my patient's so a tapered runtime doesn't bother me at all. However, I am curious to see the difference between the two... I would like to see outdoor beamshots taken at 5, 45, 60 and 90 min comparing the two ( also with the 65 lumen l1 thrown in for good measure ) 

I would like to give that comparison a go myself too to see what it really looks like to my eyes, as that will be better than beamshots. However being here in Australia, I don't think I am going to get a hold of an eb1 anytime soon unfortunately.


----------



## doctordun

Bearlight said:


> Now that's a fair assessment based on need... So if the eb1 doesn't perform for you in that specific need then it is not the right light for you. But as you say, it is user preference based on how the light will perform for your needs.
> 
> I have different needs it is not something I will be using to save my life, but my patient's so a tapered runtime doesn't bother me at all. However, I am curious to see the difference between the two... I would like to see outdoor beamshots taken at 5, 45, 60 and 90 min comparing the two ( also with the 65 lumen l1 thrown in for good measure )
> 
> I would like to give that comparison a go myself too to see what it really looks like to my eyes, as that will be better than beamshots. However being here in Australia, I don't think I am going to get a hold of an eb1 anytime soon unfortunately.



I agree with you.
I'm in Texas and I also don't think I will be getting hold of my new EB1 Tactical anytime soon.

I believe a couple people in this discussion may be getting their EB1 today. I am eagerly waiting for their comments.


----------



## 880arm

Bearlight said:


> I would like to see outdoor beamshots taken at 5, 45, 60 and 90 min comparing the two ( also with the 65 lumen l1 thrown in for good measure )



My new EB1 is on the truck to be delivered today so I hope to be able to do some comparisons when I get home from work this afternoon. Over the weekend I performed some runtime tests on my E1B (110 lumen), L1 (65 lumen), two LX2's (200 lumens), and a E2DL (200 lumen) so that I would have something to compare the E1B against.

I will try to get some outdoor beamshots later in the week.


----------



## twl

I'm just an onlooker, and I don't plan to buy this light anyway.

However, I notice a lot of points being made which are all "correct" in their own ways from certain points of view. But people seem to be talking past each other about this light, and not really seeing what the others are saying. So, it's coming out like a "fan-boi" vs "non fan-boi" argument.

First, the EB1 has higher output by a 3db margin, than the E1B had. It starts out brighter. So these output curves need to be traced over each other on a scale which shows this.
Second, this means that the EB1 can drop to 50%(-3db) before it even reaches down to where the E1B starts out at.
Third, the E1B does look like it drops rapidly, but the way the eye perceives the light, the 3db drop over time is not hardly noticeable, and as mentioned in the second point, it can drop 3db before it gets down to where the E1B started.

So yes, everybody's right.
It does drop down. It does start out brighter. It will be perceived just as good or better than the E1B for much of its run time. The regulation isn't flat. And to the eye, it hardly matters.

The biggest difference that will be noticed is that the actual throw distance will decrease as the light progressively drops in output, even if the eye is perceiving very little or no change in the apparent brightness. For people who are locked-in on having max throw distance, this is an issue. For other people who are just looking to have light that appears to have little or no noticeable change in brightness down to 50%(same as E1B at full turn on output), then it won't make any difference.
And as for the issues which arise regarding the 50 lumens vs the 65 lumens on the tail end of the run time when the battery is almost depleted, that's way less than 3db, and also would barely be noticeable.

I notice over and over on CPF that people look at these lumen figures and charts, and think that they can see these changes. They really can't see them, and if they can, the differences are very minor and some people wouldn't even be able to see the differences.
But the measured throw distance is another story, and for those people, they have a real valid issue. The rest is making a mountain out of a mole-hill. Eyes perceive light on the logarithmic db scale. Not linear. You need much bigger differences than this to be considered anything to make an issue about.


----------



## Bearlight

That would be awesome 880arm


----------



## Bearlight

Well said twl!


----------



## 880arm

Lodogg2221 said:


> You guys keep saying things about the E1B that Ive not seen backed up, and dont believe can be. 99% output after 1 hour? Where? I did a search of the forum for an E1B test, and couldnt find one that had an output graph for the 110 lumen. Found one for the 80, from someone I dont recognize as one of the major light reviewers. Maybe thats fine, I dont know, just used to seeing Robin, Selfbuit, etc...so I wonder about the graph there. Even assuming its correct, that particular E1B was only at 72 lumens at 70 min (90%, not 99% even if you wanted to use the same graph).
> I cant be the only one that would like to see one fore the newer 110 lumen version.



I think some folks, myself included, have mentioned the E1B maintains 90% ( which would be around 99 lumens, not 99% of initial output) for an hour. Below are the results of my E1B (110 lumen) and L1 (65 lumen) testing over the weekend. The E1B maintained 90% output for 68 minutes with a pretty similar curve to Chao's test of the 80 lumen version. 

The L1 was the real star of this test as it outperformed the E1B throughout the majority of the test. I always knew it was brighter than my E1B but I didn't expect it to maintain that level as well as it did. Both lights were still putting out a few lumens (enough to walk through a dark room) after 3.5 hours when I ended the tests.

Assuming UPS comes through today I will test the E1B when it arrives and compare it to these lights as well as a few others.







100% in this chart is equal to the E1B's output after 30 seconds.


----------



## brianna

Craig K, I really love Surefire it is my favorite light manufacturer. To me the HDS light company is the only other flashlight made that is even good enough to be mentioned in the same sentence. Never mind the drop ins or custom. That is for a different thread.

The E1B was an amazing little powerhouse of a light. A hand held spotlight with flat regulation and 90% output after a hour. The New EB1 to me looks like Zero regulation. If the battery voltage did not stay the same for most of its life a characteristic of lithium batteries, I feel this light would have zero regulation. If this was a cheap Chinese light, so what who cares you got what you paid for. This is not a cheap light. I do expect flat regulation. At this price point there is no excuse for not having excellent flat regulation. 

This light the new EB1 as far as I am concerned is a huge embarrassment. Makes me feel Surefire does not care, and has lowered their standards. The regulation on this new light is no better then a cheap Chinese light. Some cheap lights even have better regulation then the EB1. Looks like the future of Surefire is going to get dim really fast if they are going to keep producing inferior products like the EB1. Do you think I am being harsh? Let me remind you the E1b came out in 2008. It is now 2012, almost 2013 and this is what Surefire gives us. I am sorry no way I am going to purchase the new EB1. The old E1B is better then the new EB1 in every way, except for the initial short lived 200 lumens. Surefire I expect a new model to be a improvement. Not several steps backwards.

For those of you that do not feel a graph represents real life use. You simply can not ignore the truth. It will dim fast in real life just like the graph shows. Even a high performance engine will run just like a graph shows. Like it or not that graph is the truth. A very sad truth.


----------



## Quiksilver

For what its worth, I love my E1B. Great little light.



You can bet SureFire public relations guys are viewing this thread.


----------



## Bearlight

At the end of the day... It is a flashlight... It's build quality will be far superior to cheap chinese lights, and, having one or two cheap Chinese as well as surefires... I know that for sure... 

As far as technology goes, well led's are a big improvement on incans, in most areas at least... But how far can led technology go? And what is the perfect interface, or regulation etc....

It seems to me that there it is getting harder to create something truly innovative that has that wow fix that people crave... I mean it is a tube with a button on one end and light bulb/led at the other...you can move the button... You can give it many modes, change the user interface, you can have better or worse brightness and runtime, but at the end of the day, it is still a light stick...

There are so many variations to this theme, both within surefire alone and other brands, that we have a huge amount of choice... So if we don't like one then we can pick another.

But really.... How can a light... A tool... Be embarrassing??? If it doesn't meet my needs then I will pick another, choice is not something I am short on.

And graphs, while I understand them, I don't use them in real life. The only time I ever really look at them is in this forum in relation to flashlights...

I have never bought a product based simply on an abstract linier representation on a sheet of paper. That is not how I pick my cars, fridges washing machines etc. I want to know how it performs for me, the way I will use it, not how it performs on a graph that is plotted in a lab with instruments. 

Perception is reality. How it works for me, or not, is the only real world that counts. 

End of rant!


----------



## Quiksilver

Bearlight said:


> At the end of the day... It is a flashlight... It's build quality will be far superior to cheap chinese lights, and, having one or two cheap Chinese as well as surefires... I know that for sure...
> 
> As far as technology goes, well led's are a big improvement on incans, in most areas at least... But how far can led technology go? And what is the perfect interface, or regulation etc....
> 
> It seems to me that there it is getting harder to create something truly innovative that has that wow fix that people crave... I mean it is a tube with a button on one end and light bulb/led at the other...you can move the button... You can give it many modes, change the user interface, you can have better or worse brightness and runtime, but at the end of the day, it is still a light stick...
> 
> There are so many variations to this theme, both within surefire alone and other brands, that we have a huge amount of choice... So if we don't like one then we can pick another.
> 
> But really.... How can a light... A tool... Be embarrassing??? If it doesn't meet my needs then I will pick another, choice is not something I am short on.
> 
> And graphs, while I understand them, I don't use them in real life. The only time I ever really look at them is in this forum in relation to flashlights...
> 
> I have never bought a product based simply on an abstract linier representation on a sheet of paper. That is not how I pick my cars, fridges washing machines etc. I want to know how it performs for me, the way I will use it, not how it performs on a graph that is plotted in a lab with instruments.
> 
> Perception is reality. How it works for me, or not, is the only real world that counts.
> 
> End of rant!



Blasphemy.

I and most scientists/engineers would be inclined to disagree with you. Heck, even the engineers at SureFire would disagree with you.

Precisely because all lights are roughly similar (click button, light comes out) that some differences are only discernible on a chart.

----

IMO, if SF EB1 wanted better reception on CPF, they should have:

Used an XP-G
Regulated 200 lumen burst for 5-10 seconds, then drop down to 160 lumens with flat'ish output until the cliff..



Of course the Lumen Chasers who see flashlights as toys for tritium inserts and fancy lanyards, would have poo poo'ed it.

....

And perception is most certainly NOT reality. 

Perception is ones orbit, around a centerpoint which is reality.


----------



## Bearlight

Btw 880Arm,

I am interested in your L1 results as being brighter than the 110 lumen e1b, that is cool as I have my first L1 on the way... I am now really curious if mine gives the same results... 

I now await your opinions on the eb1 with baited breath...

I am particularly curious to hear if yours has a greenish tint... Admittedly I am not fond of that tint myself, even if it is mainly noticeable only when compared to other lights, it can sometimes seem to give a slightly sickly hue to human skin, depending on how obvious the tint is, so I prefer not to use greenish tints when assessing patients...


----------



## brianna

Bearlight said:


> But really.... How can a light... A tool... Be embarrassing???
> 
> And graphs, while I understand them, I don't use them in real life.


 
Surefire came out with the E1B in 2008 with flat regulation and 90% output after a hour. New model EB1 come out almost 5 years later. Poor regulation and very fast dimming. The old light should not be superior to the new. That is why it is embarrassing. I don't know how to make that any more clear. Just about everything you use in real life was charted on a graph. I also don't know to make it any more clear how important a graph is for actual real life performance.


----------



## twl

brianna said:


> Surefire came out with the E1B in 2008 with flat regulation and 90% output after a hour. New model EB1 come out almost 5 years later. Poor regulation and very fast dimming. The old light should not be superior to the new. That is why it is embarrassing. I don't know how to make that any more clear. Just about everything you use in real life was charted on a graph. I also don't know to make it any more clear how important a graph is for actual real life performance.



Do you know what a log scale is?
It's a serious question, because light performance with respect to human perception cannot be correctly graphed any other way.
Linear graphs as seen on this thread are not a proper representation and do NOT represent real life when human beings are involved.
They are fine for light meters, though.


----------



## Bearlight

Fair enough Quicksilver, 

But if the difference is only noticeable on a chart, then really... Apart from scientists and engineers, who really cares?

How many of surefire's customers will actually look at a runtime chart?

And your right it is blasphemy because such things do interest us as well, otherwise we wouldn't be here  

And maybe I should express it better...

My perception is my reality!


----------



## brianna

Quiksilver, you hit this right on the money. This is why lumen wars are stupid!!! 

Used an XP-G
Regulated 200 lumen burst for 5-10 seconds, then drop down to 160 lumens with flat'ish output until the cliff..
Of course the Lumen Chasers who see flashlights as toys for tritium inserts and fancy lanyards, would have poo poo'ed it.
....

And perception is most certainly NOT reality. 

Perception is ones orbit, around a centerpoint which is reality.


----------



## brianna

twl said:


> Do you know what a log scale is?
> It's a serious question, because light performance with respect to human perception cannot be correctly graphed any other way.
> Linear graphs as seen on this thread are not a proper representation and do NOT represent real life when human beings are involved.
> They are fine for light meters, though.



Close up you may not perceive much difference. Start using the light at a further distance and you will notice a huge difference. Just like the graph represents. If you do not think a graph will represent real life, I feel you are just ignoring facts and science. May not be a perfect representation of real life, but it is very true to how it will perform for you in real life.


----------



## Viking

880arm 

Thanks for the runtime graphs. Awesome!
I'm looking very much forward to the next graphs.


----------



## Bearlight

If the sun puts out 250 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 lumens, and my Kroma on low red puts out a mere 0.51 lumens.... And I can see all through that range...

Then, using that range on a linear graph, the difference between a 100 lumen flashlight and a 500 lumen flashlight is absolutely insignificant... According to the graph! 

Yet our eyes do see a significant difference, so clearly the graph is not telling the whole picture!

(note to self - I am on shaky ground because a, I am not sure that's how much the sun puts out and b, I am not a mathematician!) :laughing:


----------



## doctordun

twl said:


> Are you aware that the EB1 can throw further than the E1B, and will continue to throw further than the E1B until the EB1 reaches the 50%(half-output) level, at which time it will throw about the same as the E1B when the E1B is first turned on and is at its brightest possible level?
> Because the EB1 has twice the lumen output than the E1B at turn on, and continues to out-muscle the E1B down to its 50% level.
> 
> And that the EB1's XPE is only about 25% more efficient than the E1B's XRE, and you are asking it to keep the same flat regulation for the same time period at twice the output delivery as the E1B, using the same battery.
> Where do you think that extra energy is coming from?
> 
> Are you aware of that?



All of this discussion and this is the first thing that made sense to me. We are talking about the "Same Single Battery".
When you consider that, the new EB1 is remarkable.


----------



## brianna

twl said:


> Okay, so now we can see that you are actually arguing throw distance, and not brightness.
> Please be clear.
> 
> Are you aware that the EB1 can throw further than the E1B, and will continue to throw further than the E1B until the EB1 reaches the 50%(half-output) level, at which time it will throw about the same as the E1B when the E1B is first turned on and is at its brightest possible level?
> Because the EB1 has twice the lumen output than the E1B at turn on, and continues to out-muscle the E1B down to its 50% level.
> 
> And that the EB1's XPE is only about 25% more efficient than the E1B's XRE, and you are asking it to keep the same flat regulation for the same time period at twice the output delivery as the E1B, using the same battery.
> Where do you think that extra energy is coming from?
> 
> Are you aware of that?



Used an XP-G
Regulated 200 lumen burst for 5-10 seconds, then drop down to 160 lumens with flat'ish output until the cliff..
Of course the Lumen Chasers who see flashlights as toys for tritium inserts and fancy lanyards, would have poo poo'ed it. 

I do not purchase a light for a bright flash in the pan and a fast dim light there after.


----------



## twl

doctordun said:


> All of this discussion and this is the first thing that made sense to me. We are talking about the "Same Single Battery".
> When you consider that, the new EB1 is remarkable.




They achieve it by letting the output slide down as shown in the chart, because they know that it's within the 3db perception range, and won't be very noticeable, but it conserves power.
The throw distance will be progressively compromised as the power slides down.
That's the trade-off.


----------



## Kestrel

twl said:


> Okay, so now we can see that you are actually arguing throw distance, and not brightness. Please be clear.
> Are you aware [...]
> and you are [...]
> Where do you think [...]
> Are you aware of that?



Please keep in mind that posts along these lines (i.e. excessively personal) may get deleted - there have already been a few warnings along these lines. Thank you,




Bullzeyebill said:


> You guys are being disrespectful to each other. Attack the post not the poster, otherwise this thread will be closing shorty.


----------



## N/Apower

My usage is for throw. For that, output most certainly does matter, as long as beam focus remains the same, which on the same light, obviously it will. To me, this means that my weapon light may be useful for target ID at 75 meters, then 70, then 65, and then...progressively dropping, and with no indication. I'll take 65M face recognition for 45 minutes before I will 75M face recognition for 5 minutes and then 65 for 10 minutes and then less.


----------



## twl

N/Apower said:


> My usage is for throw. For that, output most certainly does matter, as long as beam focus remains the same, which on the same light, obviously it will. To me, this means that my weapon light may be useful for target ID at 75 meters, then 70, then 65, and then...progressively dropping, and with no indication. I'll take 65M face recognition for 45 minutes before I will 75M face recognition for 5 minutes and then 65 for 10 minutes and then less.



Well that's definitely an issue with this light, and it's the biggest argument against its output chart.
If a person lives and dies by the consistent max throw distance, this isn't the light that person wants.
IMO, this is a back-up pocket light, and not a weaponlight. I would not pick this light for a weaponlight, but it might be fine for a pocket light. I'd venture to say that 99% of the people who buy this light will use it as a pocket light.


----------



## brianna

I think the real issue is the crap regulation for a expensive light people are trying to defend. And a chart showing regulation people want to find a way to ignore. Also how a lumen war is really the reason for this. Surefire is trying to get too many lumens out of this led, pushing the limits of the battery. 

Quiksilver said it best " Used an XP-G
Regulated 200 lumen burst for 5-10 seconds, then drop down to 160 lumens with flat'ish output until the cliff..
Of course the Lumen Chasers who see flashlights as toys for tritium inserts and fancy lanyards, would have poo poo'ed it. "


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

This passionate discussion of the SF EB1 is starting to look like the fight scene at the end of the movie _Blazing Saddles. 

_I really hope several more posters get their units today from the initial shipment.

While waiting for the others to arrive I'll offer some more minor aesthetic and cosmetic observations about my sole specimen of the EB1, especially in comparison to its immediate predecessor, the E1B. I sure hope the next version of the Backup is named the EB2 or something, I'm lysdexic.

Comparing the head of the EB1 with a couple of E1B's here on the kitchen table, the head of the new light is larger and untapered as advertised. Looking into the head, the EB1's LED die looks smaller to me, it may just be the design of the TIR optic. Where the E1B has five 'mouse bites' or castellations on the bezel, the EB1 has six (I was out walking the parapet  ).

There is a deep groove around the base of the E1B head (also present on the SF LX2 head) that looks like it is for a paracord loop perhaps, this is missing on the new light.

The fit and finish of both versions of the SF Backup are excellent as expected and the lights appear to originate from the same manufacturing process unlike, for example, a SF 6P and a SF 6PX placed next to each other. These E1B's and EB1 seem to definitely be from the old school of SF construction i.e. it appears that they can be disassembled for repair rather than tossed and replaced like the SF 6PX and the Fury.

Whatever process SF uses to do the matte finish on the black Backups seems to work and wear well. Under bright light you can see some variation in the tint of the sections of the EB1 but it is so close that you would never notice it otherwise. It has been argued here that SF's are 'illumination tools', aesthetics don't matter to Rambo etc. but I do appreciate it when I get a good looking product for the premium price that I paid. Now, about that LED tint...

The grooves in the E1B tailcap and body that replace the knurling of earlier SF's are now more pronounced in the EB1. They are scored into the side of the light in groups of four and the head of the EB1 now has grooves as well, probably to ease loosening the head for a battery change.

The old and new SF Backups that I have only list the model as 'BACKUP' on the side without the E1B or EB1 designations. Most SF in recent years seem to display the alphanumeric model on the side, e.g. this 'LX2 LUMAMAX' on the table in front of me. However, SF has not been consistent with the labeling from what I can see. Rummaging around, I find an old SF Kroma Mil-Spec without the alphanumeric K2MS on the side.

On page 3 of the SF 2012 catalog the originally pictured prototype light has 'EB1 BACKUP' on the side. Maybe SF is getting away from the more technical product designations to appeal more broadly to the consumer market by continuing to label the production lights as simply 'BACKUP'.

I would suggest that inevitably there will be some confusion in the retail channel between the E1B and EB1 and the change in pricing (is it $60 or only 1.5 dB in perceived MSRP dollars? ).


----------



## brianna

I think $60 is reality. Not perceived dollars, or lumens of what my eyes see.:duh2:


----------



## Glock 22

And yet again a no show on my EB1. I believe it must have got lost.


----------



## brianna

Glock 22 assuming it did not get lost. You can pick it up at the UPS or Fed ex hub near you if you don't want to wait another day. You need to tell them that you want to pick it up to make sure it is there for you. Holiday delivery time gets messed up a lot.


----------



## Glock 22

brianna said:


> Glock 22 assuming it did not get lost. You can pick it up at the UPS or Fed ex hub near you if you don't want to wait another day. You need to tell them that you want to pick it up to make sure it is there for you.




They directed it to the post office so I guess it's coming very very slowly like the mail always does. It's at one destination and no activity one it since the 24th. Maybe another Flashaholic at the usps got it and kelp it, who knows. I hate waiting.


----------



## N/Apower

GLOCK 22 said:


> They directed it to the post office so I guess it's coming very very slowly like the mail always does. It's at one destination and no activity one it since the 24th. Maybe another Flashaholic at the usps got it and kelp it, who knows. I hate waiting.



Screw that. USPS has messed up WAY too many times. I have had priority mail take over 2 weeks to make it to a certain forum member on THIS very board. I shipped them a diffuser. They blew my inbox up with rude messages all nutting up about it even AFTER I PM'ed them the valid tracking number and since I sell thousands of dollars of stuff, I just drop-shipped them a new diffuser...well my original one arrived that day as well, so they screwed around with both, scratched one, and sent me back the "one that fit worse" (and also happened to have the scratch).

Yeah. I've also waited over 1 month to get a letter from NY sent regular mail, and same for a letter sent to Montana by me regular mail.

I'm sure I can think of other USPS failures I have personally experienced, but man, let me just take a second to hate USPS for you. They flat out suck.


----------



## John_Galt

I for one am excited about he new head/optic design. I see this as an excellent cadidate for modder fodder. Scott (milkyspit) has been doing excellent mods in surefires using the xp series leds for a long time now. I love my expurgator, in fact. But he has been using carclo optics and holders to replace the stock optics, which I can vouch for, do not focus nearly at all with xp series leds. So for those of uswho seek. Excellent throw from his mods, the new bezel and optic should allow easier modifications.

Id love to get my hands on just an eb1 head. Sent to scott for his excellent acorn driver and a neutralish xpg. Throw it on my e2l body or even my single cell fb1 with a 16340 and go to town.


----------



## kyhunter1

If I end up buying a EB1, it will be for almost the exact same mods you mentioned. 



John_Galt said:


> I for one am excited about he new head/optic design. I see this as an excellent cadidate for modder fodder. Scott (milkyspit) has been doing excellent mods in surefires using the xp series leds for a long time now. I love my expurgator, in fact. But he has been using carclo optics and holders to replace the stock optics, which I can vouch for, do not focus nearly at all with xp series leds. So for those of uswho seek. Excellent throw from his mods, the new bezel and optic should allow easier modifications.
> 
> Id love to get my hands on just an eb1 head. Sent to scott for his excellent acorn driver and a neutralish xpg. Throw it on my e2l body or even my single cell fb1 with a 16340 and go to town.


----------



## doctordun

I guess I am too new to this stuff to understand the fascination with mods.
One would think that a highly regarded manufacturer, with all of their resources, would produce a product that functioned as well as possible for the purpose it was built for. 
I find it hard to believe that any one person with limited resources could come up with an "upgrade" of any consequence, especially since the product is just now being released.
I don't think I could spend a significant amount of money on a product and then immediately send it off for a modification.
I must continue to lurk and learn.


----------



## Bearlight

That's the thing I guess, even well regarded manufacturers produce lights for a specific market. As can be seen by the angst here, what they produce may not meet the desires of some. That is where a custom build or a mod can fill a specific want that manufacturers are not catering to.

Personally, I like them for what they are, and some of the lights have don't meet any real need for me but I enjoy them for what they are. The lights that fill my needs are the ones I use the most of course!


----------



## Flashlight Dave

Robbin24k, how does the tactical version fit in your hand? The E1B is slippery and tapered in a way that makes it hard to operate without pushing the light out of one’s hand. Also, is it cumbersome to twist the light on?


----------



## 880arm

Well, UPS came through in the clutch and delivered my EB1 today. I actually met the UPS truck coming down the hill from my house as I was driving home from work this afternoon. Talk about great timing!

The light itself is as advertised and is currently eating its way through a battery in a quick runtime test. I don't expect the result to look any different than Robin's graph but at least I will be able to compare it to a few other lights when it is finished.

Some folks asked about lux readings so I took a few before starting the runtime test. All readings were taken from a distance of 5m after the lights had been on for 30 seconds and then converted to 1m readings:

EB1 10,979
E2DL 8,746
LX2 #1 8,369
LX2 #2 7,992
L1 4,400
E1B 4,279

Output on fresh batteries appear to be right in line with the LX2/E2DL and the hotspot is very bright. I suppose there is a little bit of green in the tint but it doesn't seem to be overwhelming. I will know better after I actually use the light for something other than lighting up a box


----------



## Bearlight

Looking forward to your thoughts 88arm!


----------



## twl

880arm said:


> Well, UPS came through in the clutch and delivered my EB1 today. I actually met the UPS truck coming down the hill from my house as I was driving home from work this afternoon. Talk about great timing!
> 
> The light itself is as advertised and is currently eating its way through a battery in a quick runtime test. I don't expect the result to look any different than Robin's graph but at least I will be able to compare it to a few other lights when it is finished.
> 
> Some folks asked about lux readings so I took a few before starting the runtime test. All readings were taken from a distance of 5m after the lights had been on for 30 seconds and then converted to 1m readings:
> 
> EB1 10,979
> E2DL 8,746
> LX2 #1 8,369
> LX2 #2 7,992
> L1 4,400
> E1B 4,279
> 
> Output on fresh batteries appear to be right in line with the LX2/E2DL and the hotspot is very bright. I suppose there is a little bit of green in the tint but it doesn't seem to be overwhelming. I will know better after I actually use the light for something other than lighting up a box



Almost 11k lux is a darn good throw out of that little light!


----------



## Robin24k

Flashlight Dave said:


> Robbin24k, how does the tactical version fit in your hand? The E1B is slippery and tapered in a way that makes it hard to operate without pushing the light out of one’s hand. Also, is it cumbersome to twist the light on?


It can be slippery if you don't grab it tight enough, but should be better than the E1B because of the length. Activating constant-on high from off is doable with one hand, but requires a full turn (4-6 twists).

Personally, I would prefer the clicky version because momentary low on the EB1T requires precision (not enough and it turns off, or too much and it goes to high), but it's rare to have momentary access to high from constant-on low mode. 



twl said:


> Almost 11k lux is a darn good throw out of that little light!


That's why SureFire had to use a less efficient emitter.


----------



## 880arm

I started a new thread for my review of the light. So far I have posted my initial impressions along with a few photos.

I'm working on getting the charts uploaded right now.


----------



## PoliceScannerMan

I dont have this light, but I do have a Milky L1 that pushes a XPE R2 @1A with an optic. It is one of my faves. This one looks like it may make it to my short list.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

As an owner of an LX2, the 200 lumen model, I have found that it's output, compared to my other lights, is well in excess of 200 lumens. This using bounce with a light meter. Looking at some numbers here I would bet that the EB1 is outputting close to 250 lumens, at least at start-up.

Bill


----------



## seattlite

Can you lego the components with E-series lights. Would be nice to run the head on an E2D/E2DL body using 1x17670?


----------



## 880arm

Bullzeyebill said:


> As an owner of an LX2, the 200 lumen model, I have found that it's output, compared to my other lights, is well in excess of 200 lumens. This using bounce with a light meter. Looking at some numbers here I would bet that the EB1 is outputting close to 250 lumens, at least at start-up.
> 
> Bill



I agree. It's hard to compare a TIR light to a reflector-based light but my EB1 (along with the LX2's and E2DL) compare very favorably to a Malkoff M61 rated at 260 lumens.


----------



## 880arm

seattlite said:


> Can you lego the components with E-series lights. Would be nice to run the head on an E2D/E2DL body using 1x17670?



See here. It will lego but it's probably a no-go on the 17670.


----------



## seattlite

880arm said:


> See here. It will lego but it's probably a no-go on the 17670.



Thanks...that's disappointing!


----------



## tsl

Robin24k said:


> It can be slippery if you don't grab it tight enough, but should be better than the E1B because of the length. Activating constant-on high from off is doable with one hand, but requires a full turn (4-6 twists).



Robin, do you have one of the latest L1's to compare the tactical EB1 to in regards to ergonomics and activating the modes? I had a couple of the Cree L1's but sold them because I found them too short to comfortably activate constant on. I'm thinking the extra length of the EB1 will help, but on the other hand, the L1 had knurling. Anyway, if you have one of the latest L1's, I'd appreciate your thoughts between it and the tactical EB1.


----------



## Robin24k

Sorry, I don't have any other single-cell 123A lights to compare it with.


----------



## John_Galt

So we see from the head shots that this light is kost definitely using the xpe as opposed to the newer more efficient xpe2. Several modders have made posts showing that swapping from the xpG to the xpg2 yieleds about a 30% average increase in lux. I wonder what lux numbers would look like with a swap to xpe2. At the very least this would give the user a choice of tint.

If some courageous dog is willing to crack theirs open and post some numbers with both xpe2 and g2 id be most appreciative.


----------



## N/Apower

880arm said:


> I agree. It's hard to compare a TIR light to a reflector-based light but my EB1 (along with the LX2's and E2DL) compare very favorably to a Malkoff M61 rated at 260 lumens.



My M600C eats the M60 and M61 for lunch. CoC TIR optics are awesome, and I think the lights may still be a TINY BIT under-rated.


----------



## Glock 22

Looks like mine will finally be here today when the mail runs later this evening. I'll give my impression on it as well.


----------



## Snareman

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised that all of the sites that had ship dates around this week or next week now have been pushed back 3-6 weeks?


----------



## doctordun

Snareman said:


> Maybe I shouldn't be surprised that all of the sites that had ship dates around this week or next week now have been pushed back 3-6 weeks?



B&H Photo has posted that the Tactical will be out on December 21st. They've had my money for over a month already on the advanced order.


----------



## Snareman

doctordun said:


> B&H Photo has posted that the Tactical will be out on December 21st. They've had my money for over a month already on the advanced order.



Their date got pushed back a few weeks. I think it had said 12/7. Now its back to the 21st I think.


----------



## Snareman

doctordun said:


> B&H Photo has posted that the Tactical will be out on December 21st. They've had my money for over a month already on the advanced order.



Their date got pushed back a few weeks. I think it had said 12/7. Now its back to the 21st I think.


----------



## Glock 22

Viking said:


> GLOCK 22
> 
> Please post your lux readings when the EB1 arrives. I can't get enough of those.
> 
> 
> But to be sure , I think the readings has to be done with the same meter , and probably also the same guy handle it. The lux readings from other flashlights varies a bit.
> 
> My LX2 measures 8500 lux at 1 meter distance , on fresh batteries.
> The Light meter is an Extech EA30





At 1 meters I got a Lux reading of 12,000 on my new EB1 with a fresh Surefire battery.


----------



## Viking

GLOCK 22 said:


> At 1 meters I got a Lux reading of 12,000 on my new EB1 with a fresh Surefire battery.



wow.That's impressive.

Thanks for posting the measurement


----------



## Glock 22

My first impressions of the EB1 is that I like the tint color on high as nice of one that I could have asked for on low, it's got a greenish tint to it, awesome throw, good tight hotspot. I don't like the lanyard hole on the pocket clip, because like getting out of a vehicle and it getting cought on your seat belt I believe it would break. I wish they would have countersunk the tailcap a little more for a better tailstand. I've not got to run it much, but first impression I do like this light. With that being said I don't know how much I'll like it with the fast regulation drop, but we'll come to that point when we get there. I believe they should have named it the E2B, because for 40mins you get right at 200 lumens then it drops to the output of the E1B so you've got two lights in one LOL. After carrying for sometime I'll make my final judgement.


*

EDIT: *At 45 minutes it does start dropping in regulation. At 1 hr it's at 80 lumens, at 1.25 hrs it's at 50 lumens. At 1.5 hrs it's at pretty much low mode.


----------



## kyhunter1

I got to play with Glock22's EB1 for a little while this evening. The beam and throw are impressive for a small pocket light. Too bad the throw will be so short lived. As output declines, so will the throw. Both the E2DL and LX2 I had in the past have nothing on it beam wise. Tint was a very nice white on high, but appeared somewhat greenish on low. It also seams a little lighter in weight than my old E1B. I like the tail shroud. But, it should not have been a big deal at all for SF to have made it 1mm longer to eliminate the tailstand wobble. To me that's a no brainer, but I dont work for surefire. As far as build quality, it's typical surefire ruggedness. No complaints there. But, I dislike the lack of tailcap lego-ability with other E-series switches. If it were not for the poor output regulation, I would totally dig this light. Maybe in the future it will see some updates to make it more the light we hoped it would be. Until then, I may snag one on the cheap at the mkt place and do some modding.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

I'm interested in runtime with 2x Eneloop AA's to see how the EB1's boost circuit handle's them. Also will be good to know battery draw with different combo's.


----------



## Bearlight

That's exactly my interest, although I think it would run poorly on alkalines, but should be ok with aa lithiums. I am very happy that it can be leggoed onto an aa body. It would have been even better if the two stage twisty would have worked, imagine a tactical aa surefire lol.

Oh well, that part is not to be.


----------



## Machete God

I am wondering how it'll run on an E2L AA body with two eneloops. Anybody care to try?


----------



## twl

I was just reading another thread, and the SureFire Fury 500 Lumen light with a fairly large head was mentioned to be around the same throw distance as this little EB1. In the 10k-11k lux range for both.
That's pretty impressive, at least in the first few minutes.


----------



## Quiksilver

Bearlight said:


> My perception is my reality!



To claim that is to claim either: 

1. delusion.

2. omniscience.

You could perceive great wings of faith on your back, and when you leap from a skyscraper, reality would correct your delusion.

And if your reality is THE reality, then you are claiming to know everything, to never be incorrect and to perceive everything with 100% clarity always. 





For those of us in between (who are not omiscient and not wilfully deluded), we require reason and science to acquire knowledge.



An accurate graph is a tiny fragment of reality, to which no perception can claim otherwise, without subscribing to #1. 



The properties of the EB1 defined by the chart, is exactly as the chart shows, to the level of its accuracy.

No one is questioning its accuracy.

What some are questioning, is the relevance of the parameters, in the context of using a flashlight for an undefined task.

That is another discussion entirely though.


----------



## PoliceScannerMan

Lets try to stay on topic folks. 

I would love to see one of these in action.


----------



## doctordun

How about a short video from a new owner??


----------



## lapd.erik

+1 for a quick video. Don't know if I should shell out that kind of coin for this light.


----------



## Bearlight

Quicksilver,

Without going into a full philosophical discussion on the nature of reality and perception, the point I was attempting to make was simply that while a graph may be 'objective' it's interpretation by the non- scientifically or mathematically minded is subjective, their perception of what the graph means can differ widely from its intended meaning, hence their perception of the graph becomes their reality.

While the graph is interesting and a good base line, it doesn't give me the full picture of how the eb1 will perform for my eyes. My perception of how the eb1 performs to my eyes is the only 'reality' for me that counts, as it is my use that would matter to me. 

I agree we are not talking the 'true reality' and also that if our perceptions are not at least close to the 'true reality' then we could be in trouble. 

Simply put, for many, a graph is so far divorced from their real world perception of light, that the significance of its results can easily be misinterpreted. That is why how the light performes in use, where human eyes are the judge, not a photovoltaic cell (or other electronic sensor), is so important. The retina and the human brain perceive things entirely differently to an electronic light meter.


----------



## tonywalker23

This just got too deep for me. Keep it simple for people like me. I can understand pictures of flashlights. I can really understand a video.


----------



## PoliceScannerMan

Mods are doing a good job around here. 

+1 for a video! I would love to see a video review of this light.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

I removed two posts that were OT. Keep on topic.

Bill


----------



## 880arm

They aren't as good as a video but I have posted some beamshots of the EB1 and a variety of other lights in my review thread.


----------



## 270winchester

after using this light for almost a week, I'm going to enjoy this thing. For longer runtime work light needs I got an LX2 and Malkoff Hound Dog XML. This will make a good EDC.


----------



## Jkeone808

Hey guys, first post here. :rock: Just wanted to share that I ordered my eb1 tactical from 17thstreet photo and video. And it's scheduled to arrive Monday. There's also a couple on eBay for sale. I guess we'll see if the right light shows up.


----------



## doctordun

Jkeone808 said:


> Hey guys, first post here. :rock: Just wanted to share that I ordered my eb1 tactical from 17thstreet photo and video. And it's scheduled to arrive Monday. There's also a couple on eBay for sale. I guess we'll see if the right light shows up.



I just looked there. I see the wording for Tactical, but a picture of the clickey. Hope you get what you think you are getting.
I didn't think they were being shipped yet. I have a tactical on order from B&H Photo and the have a estimated in store time of 21 December.


----------



## Jkeone808

doctordun said:


> I just looked there. I see the wording for Tactical, but a picture of the clickey. Hope you get what you think you are getting.
> I didn't think they were being shipped yet. I have a tactical on order from B&H Photo and the have a estimated in store time of 21 December.



Yeah I noticed that too so I called them and they said it was just a stock photo and they did have the tactical in stock. I guess I'll find out soon if that's true or not.


----------



## doctordun

Let us know please. I may change my order. I hate having to wait three more weeks.


----------



## Jkeone808

doctordun said:


> Let us know please. I may change my order. I hate having to wait three more weeks.



will do.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Kestrel said:


> I haven't been keeping up with this thread so today I read up on the posts since the infamous runtime graph was posted:
> 
> 
> I am reminded of the *SureFire M3LT's* posted runtime graph on 'high' from turboBB's review. The interesting thing was that the immediately declining output curve from 3xCR123 had some similarities the runtime graph currently under discussion. Interestingly, the 2x17500 graph didn't decline nearly so much as from the 3xCR123 configuration - seemed pretty voltage-dependendent to me, i.e. 2x17500 providing a flatter voltage curve than 3xCR123:
> 
> 
> Note that the 3xCR123 & 2x17500 runtime graph above is ostensibly for a 'buck' circuit, taking ~7.5 Vin down to ~6V for the MC-E in the M3LT. There is more to this than something inherent in a SF boost circuit ...
> 
> At the time, some had dismissed the lack of flat regulation for the M3LT on 3xCR123 as the light just asking too much of the three CR123's. Perhaps there was greater intent to the design than was originally thought. For better or worse, it looks like this behavior may sometimes be a design goal for SF, whether for *1xCR123 in a 'boost' circuit* (first graph above, the EB1) or *3xCR123 in a 'buck' circuit* (the second graph above, the M3LT)? :thinking:
> 
> Just thinking out loud here...



I've got a UB3T that exhibits similar better performance on the 'High' setting with 17500's.

I agree that the difference in curves between primary and rechargeable batteries on 'High' look suspiciously similar between the M3LT and E1B.

Does a current regulated circuit give the almost linear decline with time as voltage drops when the current demand is more than the power source can supply? In other words, does it look like a passive resistive circuit where the too low resistance draws power from the battery causing a continuous voltage drop? 

Someone earlier mentioned similarity between the E1B and the X300 Ultra weaponlight.

Looking down the barrel of the E1B, it does look identical to the view in the fifth picture posted here:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...e-X300-Ultra&p=4033910&viewfull=1#post4033910

The six crenellations appear the same on both heads but the scoring is missing on the side of the X300 Ultra head. I can't quite tell if the diffusive layer in the EB1 head is present in the X300 Ultra.

Similarly, the view of the optics in the classic X300 and the E1B seem to be identical as well.

A little SF product speculation while we wait for many of the other lights announced almost a year ago to be released:

Are the TIR optics the same on the X300 Ultra and EB1? Is the X300 Ultra head what we will get on the LX2 LumaMax Ultra if and when it is released? The X300 Ultra and [email protected] LumaMax Ultra are both billed as 500 lumen two cell lights.


----------



## doctordun

Jkeone808 said:


> Hey guys, first post here. :rock: Just wanted to share that I ordered my eb1 tactical from 17thstreet photo and video. And it's scheduled to arrive Monday. There's also a couple on eBay for sale. I guess we'll see if the right light shows up.



I have noticed that SWFA shows the Tactical in stock as well. I just sent an inquiry to B&H to ask them to see if the stated in stock date of 21 December can be moved up. I pointed out to them that other vendors are shipping.
I just want mine yesterday......!! It would be a real hassle to cancel the order with B&H, wait for the refund and order again from another vendor. By then the window may close.


----------



## djdawg

SWFA ..........who is this ??


----------



## doctordun

It's a dot com per their title: _Quality Optics And Accessories From Leupold, Bushnell, Burris, Nikon_


----------



## doctordun

Just talked with Surefire regarding the availability of the Tactical. 
I was told that some vendors were getting product because they ordered sooner than others.
It appears that B&H was lower in the order list, hence they haven't received the Tactical yet. Just my luck.
Surefire said they were back-ordered on EB1 Tactical and were only getting small batches in from the manufacturing entity.


----------



## Jkeone808

Got a package in the mail today


----------



## djdawg

Now I want one bad ...........LOL


----------



## 880arm

Jkeone808 said:


> Got a package in the mail today... Sorry for the bad cellphone pics



Nothing bad about those pics. Congrats on the new light!


----------



## doctordun

Boy this is killing me. I have word from B&H that they don't expect any to come in until the 21st.
Congratulations.
Tell us your first impressions.


----------



## Jkeone808

doctordun said:


> Boy this is killing me. I have word from B&H that they don't expect any to come in until the 2st.
> Congratulations.
> Tell us your first impressions.



I've only had it a couple hours but so far I'm really impressed. It's lighter than I expected, I don't have a scale around here anywhere but it feels lighter than my E1L while still being a larger light and still retaining that "solid" we'll built feeling. This is the first light I've owned with the tactical tail cap UI and I like it so far. Can't wait to carry it around for the first couple weeks or so and see how it does with my daily tasks. Looks like the sun is starting to set so ill get some opportunity to test the throw. I also thought 5 lumens on low would be a little too low but it's not as dim on the low setting as I expected.


----------



## Jkeone808

880arm said:


> Nothing bad about those pics. Congrats on the new light!



Thanks!


----------



## Glock 22

doctordun said:


> Boy this is killing me. I have word from B&H that they don't expect any to come in until the 21st.
> Congratulations.
> Tell us your first impressions.



I'm like you I hate the waiting game, maybe they'll get them instock and you'll get yours sooner. When you get it let us know what you think about it. After carrying mine over a week I really liking it. The drop in regulation don't really seem to bother me, it's a great light and will get packed for a long time. All you need to do is carry you a extra one of these.


----------



## doctordun

Just checked Surefire website.
Can't find a E1B or EB1.
Hope it's just a web problem and not something more ominous.


----------



## Viper715

I can reach the EB1 page but not the E1B. Can one of you that has the tactical already confirm that the tail threads match E series lights or not.


----------



## maxrep12

Viper715 said:


> I can reach the EB1 page but not the E1B. Can one of you that has the tactical already confirm that the tail threads match E series lights or not.


Like doctordun, I am not seeing it either. It does not seem to be accessible in the same manner as all of the other lights on Surefires website.


----------



## Viper715

I searched the site is how I found it. I didn't know it was released yet till I got an email for SF today about free shipping and saw a picture of it. I then went a searchin. Here is a link. 

http://www.surefire.com/eb1-backup-flashlight.html


----------



## Robin24k

Viper715 said:


> I can reach the EB1 page but not the E1B. Can one of you that has the tactical already confirm that the tail threads match E series lights or not.


It won't work, the tailcap spring is much longer on the EB1.


----------



## Viper715

Thanks! I guess I was too lazy I've found the reviews now shoulda looked before asking I guess.


----------



## tonywalker23

forgive me if this is a dumb ? but couldnt you cut the spring to shorten it for use on other E lights?


----------



## Viper715

I want to get my grubby little hands on one and see how much longer. Wondering if the tubes long enough for a bigger battery. Also wonder if the threads of the tail are different than other E lights or if there the same and only the length is different.


----------



## 880arm

Bullzeyebill said:


> I'm interested in runtime with 2x Eneloop AA's to see how the EB1's boost circuit handle's them. Also will be good to know battery draw with different combo's.



Just ran a test with 2x new Eneloops fresh off their first break-in cycle.






The EB1 stayed pretty close to full output for over an hour before beginning to drop. I ended the test before discharging the batteries completely.

I have tried to take some current measurements but I guess the impedance of my meters causes issues with light operation. If I try testing on the mA scale (higher impedance), the light seems to work at full brightness but the meters are out of range (OL) so I can't get any readings. If I test on the full scale (lower impedance) the light puts out what looks like low output. This is the opposite of how other lights have worked when I have tested them. I have tried this with my old Fluke and a couple of cheaper meters. Unfortunately none of my clamp or fork meters will measure DC current.

I'm looking now for an affordable datalogging DC clamp meter or clamp attachment which can be used with one of my datalogging multimeters. If anyone could make some recommendations I would appreciate it!


----------



## Swedpat

Thanks for your test 880arm!

This is very interesting, I actually wondered how would EB1 head work with the E2L AA body(did you use that for the test?) and 2AA cells. And two Eneloops totally outperform one CR123! Using Energizer L91s should be even better!


----------



## gnlw

The regulation with the Eneloops is what I was hoping and expecting from this light with the cr123.


----------



## 880arm

tonywalker23 said:


> forgive me if this is a dumb ? but couldnt you cut the spring to shorten it for use on other E lights?






Viper715 said:


> I want to get my grubby little hands on one and see how much longer. Wondering if the tubes long enough for a bigger battery. Also wonder if the threads of the tail are different than other E lights or if there the same and only the length is different.



When looking into the EB1 tailcap the first 1/2" or so is unthreaded, unlike the other E-series tailcaps. As a result, the EB1 body is lengthened at the tail section, thus requiring the longer spring. The threads are the same but the unthreaded section of the EB1 tailcap hits the body of other E-series lights before the threads can engage. A regular E-series tailcap will thread onto the EB1 body but just barely reaches the O-ring and the spring is not long enough to reach the battery.

Maybe some photos will make more sense 

Here you can see a comparison of the tail sections of the EB1 and an E2DL. You can clearly see that the EB1 has an extra unthreaded section between the o-ring and the wider part of the flashlight body. Also, the there are more threads on the EB1 body. I would have used an E1B for comparison but I seem to have misplaced mine 






This photo shows the E2DL tailcap installed on the EB1. The tailcap threads on just fine but bottoms out long before the spring reaches the battery. The gap between the tailcap and the wider part of the body illustrates where the extra length of the EB1 tailcap comes into play. The EB1 tailcap will "fit" the E2DL but will not engage the threads.






Finally, this photo is an attempt to show the difference inside the battery tubes. Measuring from the end of the body, the E2DL measures 11.6mm to the battery while the EB1 measures 17.7mm






I measured the ID of the EB1 body at 12.86mm at its narrowest point in the tailcap section.


----------



## 880arm

Swedpat said:


> Thanks for your test 880arm!
> 
> This is very interesting, I actually wondered how would EB1 head work with the E2L AA body(did you use that for the test?) and 2AA cells. And two Eneloops totally outperform one CR123! Using Energizer L91s should be even better!



You're welcome. I'm new to Eneloops (these are my first) but I am very impressed by what I have seen so far.

I don't have an E2L AA so I used a Vital Gear FB3 body instead.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

880arm said:


> Just ran a test with 2x new Eneloops fresh off their first break-in cycle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The EB1 stayed pretty close to full output for over an hour before beginning to drop. I ended the test before discharging the batteries completely.



Yep, looks like the EB1 is engineered to run well on almost any 3 volt battery source but a CR123A.


----------



## Robin24k

I would think that NiMH would be able to handle the sustained high drain better than primaries...


----------



## Raptor Factor

Just a heads up, the E1B has been officially discontinued on the Surefire website's list of discontinued products.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Robin24k said:


> I would think that NiMH would be able to handle the sustained high drain better than primaries...



Agreed, looks like they didn't quite make the claimed 200 lumen spec in regulation with a single cell primary battery and a less efficient inexpensive emitter.

Hopefully some years from now this will be fixed with a firmware update and/or an emitter upgrade. :thumbsup:

I agree with the SF apologists that a two mode American made LED light for only $220 MSRP has its limitations...

Since PK had a persona at SF like Steve Jobs at that other California manufacturer, was this a legacy PK design left to others to finish a couple of years later or did they start with a clean sheet of paper on the electronics and get it wrong on the first try? The PK fanboys and confidants seem to be recently very silent on CPF.  I certainly acknowledge PK's awesome contributions to SF light design but something has suddenly changed at SF and here on CPF in my opinion.

Anyway, the EB1 runtime plot on a CR123A can only improve in my view.


----------



## doctordun

Raptor Factor said:


> Just a heads up, the E1B has been officially discontinued on the Surefire website's list of discontinued products.



I still don't see the EB1 in their listing although, as previously pointed out, the direct page can be accessed.
My thought is that Surefire has no stock and can't fill orders, so it's not on the website.
Or, they are having some issues with the EB1, and they are waiting for them to be straightened out before re-listing them on their website.


----------



## Robin24k

doctordun said:


> My thought is that Surefire has no stock and can't fill orders, so it's not on the website.


When new lights are released, SureFire will list them on the website but won't allow orders for a certain period of time. This was the case when the EB1 was added, so either way, the EB1 would not be part of the holiday promotion.



doctordun said:


> Or, they are having some issues with the EB1


I've identified several operational issues with the EB1, which will be addressed by a firmware update. I've sent mine back to receive the updated firmware, and I'm still waiting for a response on the specifics, as well as if this will affect availability.


----------



## N/Apower

Raptor Factor said:


> Just a heads up, the E1B has been officially discontinued on the Surefire website's list of discontinued products.



Shortest production run ever? Multithousand dollar collector item?


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

N/Apower said:


> Shortest production run ever? Multithousand dollar collector item?



Wasn't the E1B released back in 2007 or so?


----------



## asdalton

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Wasn't the E1B released back in 2007 or so?



The original E1B, advertised at 80 lumens, was released in early 2008. At some point, the specs were upgraded to 110 lumens.


----------



## maxrep12

880arm said:


> Just ran a test with 2x new Eneloops fresh off their first break-in cycle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OT, editorializing comments removed.


----------



## N/Apower

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Wasn't the E1B released back in 2007 or so?



Sorry. Alphabet soup got me.


----------



## Snareman

Robin24k said:


> I've identified several operational issues with the EB1, which will be addressed by a firmware update. I've sent mine back to receive the updated firmware, and I'm still waiting for a response on the specifics, as well as if this will affect availability.



What kind of issues?


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

N/Apower said:


> Sorry. Alphabet soup got me.


 
The SF product alphanumeric designations are indeed confusing. I do appreciate the fact that they are kept short unlike, say, those on an Intel CPU. But dyslexia between the E1B and EB1 has already spilled over to the product listings online. As I reported earlier in this thread, I made an online order for the EB1 but was uneasy because the web page URL had E1B in it. I did get the EB1, thankfully.

One major sporting goods retailer now has the full MSRP of the new EB1 in a listing with pictures and specs for the now discontinued E1B. Like them perceived lumens, Bubba and Earl might never know the difference but some of us here would be disappointed if we got the wrong light at full price.


----------



## 880arm

The naming similarity will be a problem for a while, particularly until retailers get out from under whatever stock of E1B's they have on hand.

Just playing the odds here, but I'm willing to bet that there will be (or already have been) some mix-ups on orders.


----------



## Maxbelg

Has anyone tried the EB1 tactical body with a VME head and a Malkoff? This would be a nice small two-level Malkoff host!


----------



## Glock 22

Robin24k said:


> I've identified several operational issues with the EB1, which will be addressed by a firmware update. I've sent mine back to receive the updated firmware, and I'm still waiting for a response on the specifics, as well as if this will affect availability.





Let use know if they fix it and if they also fix the runtime issue as well. Hopefully they will do both.


----------



## Robin24k

GLOCK 22 said:


> Let use know if they fix it and if they also fix the runtime issue as well. Hopefully they will do both.


It will be fixed by a firmware update, but those who have gotten early models will have to send it back to SureFire to get the update.

Runtime was never really an "issue"...


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Maxbelg said:


> Has anyone tried the EB1 tactical body with a VME head and a Malkoff? This would be a nice small two-level Malkoff host!



The VME head fits the EB1 body just fine, feels better to me than on the short E1E body. It's only single mode however.



GLOCK 22 said:


> Let use know if they fix it and if they also fix the runtime issue as well. Hopefully they will do both.



There is no issue with the EB1 runtime curve, it is a SF 'feature', regulation doesn't matter to SF, your eye will never notice the loss of perceived lumens, it's a fig newton of your imagination. 

However, when and if it gets fixed, we will hear the trumpets of joy proclaiming how the SF regime has once more responded to the voice of the people. :twothumbs


----------



## brianna

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> However, when and if it gets fixed, we will hear the trumpets of joy proclaiming how the SF regime has once more responded to the voice of the people. :twothumbs



I only own Surefire because I thought I was always getting the best. After this regulation blunder, I am not so sure of this anymore. Older technology LED with Cree calling it good for the budget conscious. Problem is Surefire is not a cheap budget light. If this is the path Surefire wants to take, I will not follow it with them.


----------



## Flashlight Dave

It seems the EB1 to be off the website now. Gone already short life for a flashlight. Both E1B and the EB1 are gone and we are left with nothing now just memories. So sad. Holding out hope still.:candle:


----------



## Flashlight Dave

Just checked out Surefire everyday carry gear recommendations video and the EB1 is still in there. Maybe a good sign unlike the LX2U that was edited out.
[h=1][/h]


----------



## Glock 22

Your right, I just checked Surefires site and the EB1 is not showing up. Wonder why?


----------



## Flashlight Dave

GLOCK 22 said:


> Your right, I just checked Surefires site and the EB1 is not showing up. Wonder why?



I think its gone. Maybe too many issues with it.


----------



## tobrien

nice find, guys. i didn't think they'd pull it from the site


----------



## doctordun

Anyone here have any contacts to find out what is going on?


----------



## Glock 22

Flashlight Dave said:


> I think its gone. Maybe too many issues with it.




If they took it off for upgrades I hope they replace mine as well as others who just got their's. By all rights that's what they should do.


----------



## nitrofein

Does anyone know if the eb1 or e1b can be run off of two aa batteries? I know you would need a different body but I was curious if the head would work. I was thinking of mounting it to one of mcgizmos mcclicky.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hoffsoft

I just got off the phone with Surefire tech support. The guy who answered had not heard of the "7 click strobe" problem (which I do have on a EB1C) nor did he know why it was off the website. He took my name and number and would check with Engineering. I'll post any updates I get from them.


----------



## Glock 22

nitrofein said:


> Does anyone know if the eb1 or e1b can be run off of two aa batteries? I know you would need a different body but I was curious if the head would work. I was thinking of mounting it to one of mcgizmos mcclicky.




Go to page #23 and see post #675 and I believe you'll get your answer.


----------



## Hoffsoft

Robin24K, can you characterize the nature of the EB1's incompatibility with Surefire LFP123A batteries? I bought SF2R-KIT01 for the express purpose of using them with this light. My usage is quick staccato bursts, not long runtime, so the prospect of 200ish lumens for 25 minutes was exactly what I was looking for in a bombproof light. Hopefully whatever you noticed can be fixed in firmware - hopefully you're not under NDA.

Thanks for your work!


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

N/Apower said:


> Shortest production run ever? Multithousand dollar collector item?





N/Apower said:


> Sorry. Alphabet soup got me.



You might have been right the first time.:huh:

Probably a coincidence but it looks like there is now an opening at SF for the person who puts the specs on the box:



> *Production Design Warrior
> *
> *Job Description:*
> SureFire, LLC is a leading manufacturer of illumination tools and tactical accessories for those who would go in harms way, and for those who demand the ultimate in performance, technology, quality and innovation. Realize your creative genius and work for this industry-leading Orange County company building best-in-class products that increase the safety and security of a wide range of customers — including military, special operations forces, SWAT and hardcore outdoors enthusiasts. We like to have fun and do great work, so in addition to a wicked sense of humor — you’ll need to have solid graphic design and production skills, and an ability to create designs and illustrations that reveal the technical superiority of our products.
> 
> The Production Design Warrior is responsible for interacting and coordinating with various staff including writers and product management, to make sure work is on schedule and product specifications are accurate on all packaging, manuals and product information sheets to ensure that materials are consistent and error free. And you will also get to assist with the logistics before, during, and after photo shoots both on location and in studio.
> 
> *Essential Duties and Responsibilities:*
> 
> Design and polish a wide-array of print collateral including packaging, sell sheets, user manuals, ads, and brochures.
> Prepress final design layouts and help maintain quality control on all packaging, product information sheets, and manuals.
> Coordinate among cross-functional groups to maintain departmental processes and create viable design solutions.



http://www.surefire.com/career-job-postings


----------



## brianna

Maybe they took off the EB1 because they have some pride left and realized what a piece of crap it is. I am hoping for a new model with flat regulation and really nice tint like the E1B had. The E1B came out it 2008. Four years later they gave us the EB1. It is my biggest hope Surefire was ashamed of the EB1 and want to start over from scratch. I just don't want to wait another four years.


----------



## FPSRelic

brianna said:


> Maybe they took off the EB1 because they have some pride left and realized what a piece of crap it is. I am hoping for a new model with flat regulation and really nice tint like the E1B had. The E1B came out it 2008. Four years later they gave us the EB1. It is my biggest hope Surefire was ashamed of the EB1 and want to start over from scratch. I just don't want to wait another four years.



That's a little bit harsh. It may not be for everybody, but it does have some nice features.


----------



## brianna

The EB1 is not worthy to follow the iconic E1B. I think nice beam tint and flat regulation could be appreciated by all. The poor regulation on the EB1 is caused by Surefire using a very cheap budget Cree less efficient LED that is pushing the limits of the battery. On the Cree website they produce a Led for the budget consious. That is the Led Surefire is using. So a little harsh I think not. Just the harsh truth of the matter.


----------



## Glock 22

brianna said:


> Maybe they took off the EB1 because they have some pride left and realized what a piece of crap it is. I am hoping for a new model with flat regulation and really nice tint like the E1B had. The E1B came out it 2008. Four years later they gave us the EB1. It is my biggest hope Surefire was ashamed of the EB1 and want to start over from scratch. I just don't want to wait another four years.





I totally agree with what you said. Let me add one more thing they should have to *recall* the ones that's out and fix them so they'll have the flat regulation that we thought we was getting when we bought this light. I defended it at first but after getting it I rarely even use it for the let down Surefire did on this light. So I bought myself a LX2 to carry instead of the EB1.


----------



## doctordun

One would think that someone with ties to Surefire would jump in on this thread to let us know what is going on.
I am contemplating cancelling my order with B&H.


----------



## Glock 22

Wonder if *Robin24k* has any insite on what's going on?


----------



## Hoffsoft

I'm still waiting on a call back - I have both an email from last week into [email protected] and a phone call yesterday. They're probably trying to figure out how they're going to handle this. Hopefully they'll just be upfront about it and update the firmware on the units that are already out.


----------



## brianna

Glock 22, If you contact Surefire I am sure they would be willing to do something for you. They do have great customer service.


----------



## Glock 22

brianna said:


> Glock 22, If you contact Surefire I am sure they would be willing to do something for you. They do have great customer service.




Any idea of why they pulled them off of their website, is it to fix all the issues that it has?


*EDIT:* I just talked to Surefire and they said the reason why they took it off their wedsite is it had some issues that they needed to fix, but he did'nt say what kind of issues it was. So who knows, all I know mine is going back to them.


----------



## Hoffsoft

GLOCK 22 said:


> *EDIT:* I just talked to Surefire and they said the reason why they took it off their wedsite is it had some issues that they needed to fix, but he did'nt say what kind of issues it was. So who knows, all I know mine is going back to them.



Did they give you an RMA number, or did they tell you to wait?


----------



## Glock 22

Hoffsoft said:


> Did they give you an RMA number, or did they tell you to wait?




They gave me a RMA number.


----------



## Hoffsoft

Surefire just refused to give me an RMA number. The guy said he asked the manager of the repairs department, and there is no firmware update. He said he had gotten a lot of calls about it today, and it was taken off the website because they were "doing something with it." Anybody else get this line?


----------



## Glock 22

Mine has a pulse blinking issue and I was the first RMA # issued on this light and he also told me to wait until after the first of the year to send it back, I'm assuming they should have all the bugs worked out by then.


----------



## benthiccracker

Waddup Glock22! Ha, I just cycled through 7 "pushes" and not clicks... H-L-H-L-H-L-H then for 3 pushes or clicks after that <<nothing>> then on the 4th High comes back on and it goes through all that again. Besides the issues with the firmware I didn't realize how long it was till I put it up beside a E2D with a Veleno Dropin and a Mikmod tail. Why do I want a single cell light that is nearly as long as a 2 cell? I bet if that wasn't a defender crenelated bezel and just a E2 it would be darn near the same length!


----------



## doctordun

EB1 is back on the Surefire website..........

I am cancelling my order with B&H and see what happens with this light.
Right now I am a bit worried about getting one.
I am considering getting the discontinued E1B while they are still available in the market place.


----------



## Lodogg2221

GLOCK 22 said:


> I totally agree with what you said. Let me add one more thing they should have to *recall* the ones that's out and fix them so they'll *have the flat regulation that we thought we was getting when we bought this light*. I defended it at first but after getting it I rarely even use it for the let down Surefire did on this light. So I bought myself a LX2 to carry instead of the EB1.



I know people keep talking about how the light should have had flat regulation, and some have done it over and over, but did Surefire ever mention that in any version of the catalog? 
I just cant figure out how everyone expected it, other than assuming it would. (BTW, that is a serious question, as Ive never seen it advertised as having flat regulation)

As far as the light itself goes, the length is the only thing I dont care for. 
And now there are different stories from SF depending on who talked to who, about an update which also isnt really a good thing.
Id think they would at least keep everyone in the loop about what they are doing, at least internally, and have a statement they tell consumers so that no matter what that statement is, everyone is hearing the same thing.

Who knows, maybe after said "update", it will come closer to meeting the original assumptions about its performance.


----------



## Yourfun2

It is too long and the tailcap isn't compatible with anything else. Those 2 things and poor regulation is enough to make me look elsewhere.


----------



## 270winchester

benthiccracker said:


> Besides the issues with the firmware I didn't realize how long it was till I put it up beside a E2D with a Veleno Dropin and a Mikmod tail. Why do I want a single cell light that is nearly as long as a 2 cell? I bet if that wasn't a defender crenelated bezel and just a E2 it would be darn near the same length!



Do you have a beamshot comparison between the modded E2D and the EB1, since you are comparing the two? I agree it's not as small as say an e1e and I wouldn't mind if the clickie version just used the E1B body and tail cap, but the relatively big head is there for a reason.


----------



## brianna

Yourfun2 said:


> It is too long and the tailcap isn't compatible with anything else. Those 2 things and poor regulation is enough to make me look elsewhere.



I got spoiled with the flat regulation of the old model E1B. I certainly do not want a new light that has poor regulation. Seems to me if you purchased this light you are getting a big downgrade of quality. Quality components properly executed will have flat regulation. This new light to me looks like they are just relying on the voltage of the battery, and did not even bother with a regulation circuit. If this is the future, then it will get dim fast. Wish I never sold those brand new E1B lights. I sold them because the new model was coming out and I expected it to be a improvement, not a downgrade.


----------



## benthiccracker

270winchester said:


> Do you have a beamshot comparison between the modded E2D and the EB1, since you are comparing the two? I agree it's not as small as say an e1e and I wouldn't mind if the clickie version just used the E1B body and tail cap, but the relatively big head is there for a reason.


I was just comparing the length. A beamshot would be a ridiculous comparison between a High CRI Veleno Dropin and the EB1. If I really liked cool tints I would have a Veleno that is cool then it would be a good comparison. Agree?


----------



## hcd615

My EB!C-A-BK, just arrived and it is going back to store. The led is GREEN. Not so bad on high, but on low it is green. I did the 7 press and yes my light stopped then after a few more clicks it started again. Unacceptable. I will stick with my E1B which is SUPER Bright White! I am not a flashlight guru as far as defining warm led light, etc. I don't even know what the stuff means. All I did was shine my E1B and the EB1 on a white wall from the same distance and the green is very noticeable. I don't know what that is called in the lumen light spectrum, but it doesn't look good to me. YMMV


----------



## Glock 22

I tried the 7 clicks and 7 presses with my EB1 and worked perfect. I even went several time over and still functioned as normal.


----------



## benthiccracker

:shrug: waddup with the QC SureFire?
Oh yeah, since there are obvious problems with the EB1 and SureFire has a good warranty I tried mine with a RCR 123 it comes on in low and will not go to high. I took it back out and put the SF primary in and it worked fine.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

hcd615 said:


> My EB!C-A-BK, just arrived and it is going back to store. The led is GREEN. Not so bad on high, but on low it is green. I did the 7 press and yes my light stopped then after a few more clicks it started again. Unacceptable. I will stick with my E1B which is SUPER Bright White! I am not a flashlight guru as far as defining warm led light, etc. I don't even know what the stuff means. All I did was shine my E1B and the EB1 on a white wall from the same distance and the green is very noticeable. I don't know what that is called in the lumen light spectrum, but it doesn't look good to me. YMMV



Welcome to the club of EB1 early adopters Howard. 

Yep, most of us have noticed the sickly green EB1 LED tint, it's hard to ignore especially, as you commented, on low.

On page 39 of the 2012 SF catalog this new 'feature' is 'explained' in the writeup for the LX2 Lumamax Ultra. Why, these here special LED's produce


> "...a higher component of yellowish-green light to which the human eye is most sensitive. This combination of increased output and optimized off-white color increase perceived illumination for the user, creates a brighter surround beam for enhanced situational awareness, and increases the blinding effect on an opponent's dark-adapted vision."



You gotta wipe your shoes off after reading that one in my opinion. :huh:

I was only half joking when I predicted earlier in this thread that the lousy output regulation on a primary battery would be touted by SF


> as a brilliant scheme to steadily reduce perceived lumen output and thereby ensure thermal stability and battery life in a specially picked LED that maximizes output in the region of the spectrum optimum for human vision



SF doesn't guarantee regulation, they don't guarantee tint, they don't say how long the 200 lumens output lasts on the EB1. But, some of us are disappointed in the initial release of this product.

One of the classic CPF excuses why SF takes so long to release a light with less than current LED technology is the claim of extensive product testing.

I'll borrow a quote from the movie _Top Gun_:



> Maverick: Well, ma'am, it doesn't seem so in this case now does it?


----------



## brianna

Wow sounds like a ton of crap from surefire. They were my favorite, but after this line of bull I will need to reconsider my purchases. They may not guarantee flat regulation, but when a premium is paid I for one expect it. If I wanted poor regulation. Or green tints, lights from china would give me that at minimal cost.


----------



## drew78

I have been carrying around my old E1B for years, I put the tail switch from my e2d led on it so it can tail stand and give me a bit more grip.

I have read this thread, its looong, but lots of good info in here. I have a question for the group... The original Backup initially came out with a max output of 80 lumens and then was upgraded to 110. Is there a way to tell which output model I have? I cant even begin to remember how long ago I bought it. Would the serial number tell me?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## benthiccracker

I am sure the serial number would tell you, I have a body from a 80 lumen E1B that has A12148 on it. You can always call SureFire and they will definitely be able to tell you.


----------



## drew78

Thanks mine is A00714, gotta be an 80 lumen model.

Can you upgrade to the 110 version with a new head somehow?


----------



## benthiccracker

if you stick around CPFM B/S/T threads one should come up, to be honest though, there wasn't much difference. You could always send it off to one of the modders...


----------



## Lucciola

I was so much looking forward for this light, but I'll stick to my E1B Backup. The poor regulation of the EB1 is the killer for me.

For me this is important. I remember the incan-days when I was a boy-scout. I hated it that I had to throw away so many half-used batteries because my light was just not bright enough any more.

Regulated LED lights were a revelation to me.

With regulation I have: Bright ---------------------------------------------------dim--- Cell empty, change battery.

Without regulation I have: Very bright---bright---nearly bright---not so bright---dim---dimmer---still dimmer---cell empty, change battery

Problem is that latest at the point of "not so bright" I would change the battery. This would put me back to the incan days, starting again to throw away half-full batteries, just because the light is not so bright any more.

That's simply not what I want. Maybe I am not the No.1 target customer of Surefire so I'm sure they will do fine without my $$$.

So what, it's not the end of the world. In fact I'm affraid they'll get my $$$ anyway - just for an LX2 instead of an EB1.


----------



## kyhunter1

Most around here seem to think the 80 lumen version was 110 lumens the whole time. I directly compared my early 2009 model E1B to a later model 110 lumen E1B and you could not tell any difference between them. Tail current draw was the same on both also. You cant really be for certain by the serial numbers only.




drew78 said:


> I have been carrying around my old E1B for years, I put the tail switch from my e2d led on it so it can tail stand and give me a bit more grip.
> 
> I have read this thread, its looong, but lots of good info in here. I have a question for the group... The original Backup initially came out with a max output of 80 lumens and then was upgraded to 110. Is there a way to tell which output model I have? I cant even begin to remember how long ago I bought it. Would the serial number tell me?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


----------



## Lucky Duck

benthiccracker said:


> You can always call SureFire and they will definitely be able to tell you.



Not really,I called SF with this exact question & was told "Serial numbers do not correlate to production dates" So, no, one cannot tell by simply looking the serial #.


----------



## doctordun

Well I cancelled my order for the EB1 and ordered an E1B. I really don't think I would notice the lumen difference that much and there is just too much unanswered on the EB1.


----------



## lapd.erik

Lucciola said:


> I was so much looking forward for this light, but I'll stick to my E1B Backup. The poor regulation of the EB1 is the killer for me.
> 
> For me this is important. I remember the incan-days when I was a boy-scout. I hated it that I had to throw away so many half-used batteries because my light was just not bright enough any more.
> 
> Regulated LED lights were a revelation to me.
> 
> With regulation I have: Bright ---------------------------------------------------dim--- Cell empty, change battery.
> 
> Without regulation I have: Very bright---bright---nearly bright---not so bright---dim---dimmer---still dimmer---cell empty, change battery
> 
> Problem is that latest at the point of "not so bright" I would change the battery. This would put me back to the incan days, starting again to throw away half-full batteries, just because the light is not so bright any more.
> 
> That's simply not what I want. Maybe I am not the No.1 target customer of Surefire so I'm sure they will do fine without my $$$.
> 
> So what, it's not the end of the world. In fact I'm affraid they'll get my $$$ anyway - just for an LX2 instead of an EB1.



I feel the same way. Once we got regulated lights we were "enlightened" in the flashlight world.


----------



## N/Apower

hcd615 said:


> My EB!C-A-BK, just arrived and it is going back to store. The led is GREEN. Not so bad on high, but on low it is green. I did the 7 press and yes my light stopped then after a few more clicks it started again. Unacceptable. I will stick with my E1B which is SUPER Bright White! I am not a flashlight guru as far as defining warm led light, etc. I don't even know what the stuff means. All I did was shine my E1B and the EB1 on a white wall from the same distance and the green is very noticeable. I don't know what that is called in the lumen light spectrum, but it doesn't look good to me. YMMV


It happens. I have a Malkoff M61 that was that way. Well, had. I gave it away.


----------



## brianna

doctordun said:


> Well I cancelled my order for the EB1 and ordered an E1B. I really don't think I would notice the lumen difference that much and there is just too much unanswered on the EB1.



I don't know if you ever had a E1B before. But that light is the reason I became enlightened. Flat regulation, nice creamy white tint, and no glitches or problems. Like you I wanted the EB1, till we learned about the poor regulation and other problems. My 80 lumen model was just a tad brighter then two 110 lumen models I owned. You will be very happy with the E1B. Surefire is my favorite flashlight, but I really am disappointed with them because four years later they give us a inferior replacement of the E1B.


----------



## Machete God

kyhunter1 said:


> Most around here seem to think the 80 lumen version was 110 lumens the whole time. I directly compared my early 2009 model E1B to a later model 110 lumen E1B and you could not tell any difference between them. Tail current draw was the same on both also. You cant really be for certain by the serial numbers only.


I can't vouch for how accurate the technical knowledge of the customer service reps at SF are, but here's the exact quote from an e-mail reply (from SF CS reps) to my question between the 80 and 110 lumens versions of the E1B


> There actually isn’t a difference between those two lights. The E1B was originally listed and released at 80 lumens, and upon further testing, it was established it actually had an output of 110 lumen. So it wasn’t that there was an upgrade in the light itself, it was just in the information was corrected and updated.


So it would appear that the upgrade was really for marketing purposes. However, I've read of users saying that there is a noticeable difference between the two versions. If pressed to guess, I would say that it's possible the earliest E1Bs coming off the production line really did test close to 80 lumens but as time went on and SF had access to better bins of emitters, all the E1Bs were soon testing at 110 lumens or above, thus warranting the "upgrade". But I'm just guessing here  




880arm said:


> Just ran a test with 2x new Eneloops fresh off their first break-in cycle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The EB1 stayed pretty close to full output for over an hour before beginning to drop. I ended the test before discharging the batteries completely


Thank you for sharing your results with the eneloops, it's very helpful and exactly what I was looking for when I asked a question regarding behaviour on eneloops (can't remember if it was in this thread or in your review thread). I'm still looking for an answer to how the output graph looks like in intermittent usage patterns. But I think it's safe to say that I, for one, will be buying one of these after SF sorts out the issues with the light.


----------



## tobrien

I dunno if y'all got this email, too, but the EB1 was pictured in a sales email from Surefire's mailing list i'm on: http://www.surefire.com/media/wysiw...l_ED12EF/Free_Shipping_email_ED12EF_r2_c1.png

thoughts? maybe they're not totally nuking the EB1 despite pulling it from the site?


----------



## leon2245

benthiccracker said:


> *Why do I want a single cell light that is nearly as long as a 2 cell?* I bet if that wasn't a defender crenelated bezel and just a E2 it would be darn near the same length!



If that length was your ideal point of limiting returns, and you didn't want it any shorter than that regardless of how many cells. THat won't likely apply to too many here though (& obviously not to you since you asked it rhetorically!), just those who prefer single cell lights, but find handling, operating, & drawing longer lights to be easier, & feel they are more secure in the pocket etc. 

Same with greenish tints & immediately declining but longer regulation. Preferences may vary.


----------



## Lodogg2221

tobrien said:


> I dunno if y'all got this email, too, but the EB1 was pictured in a sales email from Surefire's mailing list i'm on: http://www.surefire.com/media/wysiw...l_ED12EF/Free_Shipping_email_ED12EF_r2_c1.png
> 
> thoughts? *maybe they're not totally nuking the EB1 despite pulling it from the site?*



They havent pulled it.
I dont get why everyone thought they were going to dump it, but while some said it was off the site, it must not have been for long because I could always seem to find it.


----------



## Robin24k

Lodogg2221 said:


> They havent pulled it.
> I dont get why everyone thought they were going to dump it, but while some said it was off the site, it must not have been for long because I could always seem to find it.


It was an unrelated technical issue, but it's back now.


----------



## Jkeone808

*sigh*


----------



## Glock 22

Robin24k said:


> It was an unrelated technical issue, but it's back now.





So is there still a firmwire issue? If so is it with both versions?


----------



## Lodogg2221

GLOCK 22 said:


> So is there still a firmwire issue? If so is it with both versions?



I think he meant a technical issue with Surefires website....


----------



## Illumination

Jkeone808 said:


> *sigh* probably gonna send mine back. At first I liked the light but the regulation sucks and mine pulses when the low mode comes on height for like 10th of a second then the low mode comes on.



So many issues with this new light. Feels like the beginning of the end for another great American company. I've got over a dozen Surefires but have no interest in this light or anything else recently from them. Quite a disappointment.


----------



## Z-Tab

Is there any word on programmability for these? I can't imagine how they can have any problems unless the electronics are way more complicated than the dozens of perfectly functional two-level lights that Surefire has released over the years.


----------



## brianna

Illumination said:


> So many issues with this new light. Feels like the beginning of the end for another great American company. I've got over a dozen Surefires but have no interest in this light or anything else recently from them. Quite a disappointment.


 
I feel the same way it is heartbreaking.


----------



## Xacto

Illumination said:


> So many issues with this new light. Feels like the beginning of the end for another great American company. I've got over a dozen Surefires but have no interest in this light or anything else recently from them. Quite a disappointment.



I wouldn't go so far. First of all there are surely enough customers that buy Surefires without reading runtime graphs or visiting forums. Second it is just one light out of many. I must admit that because of the pricetag it never really was an option for me (the place of a small, bright, tacticool backuplight 24/7 on the belt is currently filled with the Fenix PD22), but the Fury single mode lights are another story. Although they too are slightly above my usual price tag, they aqre still within reach. Not to mention the 6PX/G2X typ of lights.

Cheers
Thorsten


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Z-Tab said:


> Is there any word on programmability for these? I can't imagine how they can have any problems unless the electronics are way more complicated than the dozens of perfectly functional two-level lights that Surefire has released over the years.



I've looked inside the head of my EB1 and the electronics are indeed more complex than other small lights from the aspect of parts count and circuit board area. There is a Microchip Technology F24K22 microcontroller with 16K of flash memory as I noted on another thread here. We've literally landed on the moon with less computing power.

The SF 2012 catalog released about a year ago shows the 'programmable' icon by the EB1 but the product box doesn't. If the EB1 is indeed programmble through light shining on the emitter as some of the SF ad copy implies on page 29 of the 2012 catalog, does this mean that the light has some click sequence to put it in program mode? Or, does the light from the dongle generate enough voltage on the emitter to power the programming sequence with the EB1 switch turned off?

Or, did this dongle gadget just not work out and will it quietly disappear from the 2013 catalog?

The EB1 circuit boards have 'test points' that look like they could be used for a firmware update, but this would require disassembly of the light.


----------



## twl

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> I've looked inside the head of my EB1 and the electronics are indeed more complex than other small lights from the aspect of parts count and circuit board area. There is a Microchip Technology F24K22 microcontroller with 16K of flash memory as I noted on another thread here. We've literally landed on the moon with less computing power.
> 
> The SF 2012 catalog released about a year ago shows the 'programmable' icon by the EB1 but the product box doesn't. If the EB1 is indeed programmble through light shining on the emitter as some of the SF ad copy implies on page 29 of the 2012 catalog, does this mean that the light has some click sequence to put it in program mode? Or, does the light from the dongle generate enough voltage on the emitter to power the programming sequence with the EB1 switch turned off?
> 
> Or, did this dongle gadget just not work out and will it quietly disappear from the 2013 catalog?
> 
> The EB1 circuit boards have 'test points' that look like they could be used for a firmware update, but this would require disassembly of the light.



I don't know about the programmability of this light, but I can tell you that if you shine light on an LED it acts slightly as a photocell, and will emit a small amount of current in the micro-amp range, at about 3 volts.
So, I suppose it is possible that this could be used in some way by some engineers for some purpose, perhaps programming.


----------



## brianna

All I want is a 200 lumen TIR optic light with good flat regulation that works. When things get complicated with fancy computer chips. The chances of this light putting you in the dark are going to increase greatly. I am waiting for them to tell us we need to do a restart when the flashlight fails.


----------



## fresh eddie fresh

brianna said:


> All I want is a 200 lumen TIR optic light with good flat regulation that works.



Would an LX2 or an E2DL suit your needs?


----------



## brianna

I really want a single cell light. Never really liked 2 cell lights very much.


----------



## Glock 22

brianna said:


> All I want is a 200 lumen TIR optic light with good flat regulation that works. When things get complicated with fancy computer chips. The chances of this light putting you in the dark are going to increase greatly. I am waiting for them to tell us we need to do a restart when the flashlight fails.




I just got my LX2 today and I like it way over the EB1. Nice white beam with no green tint to it. If you want a 200 lumen TIR optic then this is the one to have. This makes my second one and I've hated it ever since I let the first one go until I got this one today and now I satisfied and to me the EB1 is a thing of the past. The LX2 is brighter when compairing the two side by side.


----------



## 270winchester

brianna said:


> This is the real problem. It should not be a lumen game. Surefire is getting sucked into it, and people buy it forgetting about the reason Surefire rises above the rest.





brianna said:


> All I want is a 200 lumen TIR optic light with good flat regulation that works. When things get complicated with fancy computer chips. The chances of this light putting you in the dark are going to increase greatly. I am waiting for them to tell us we need to do a restart when the flashlight fails.





brianna said:


> I really want a single cell light. Never really liked 2 cell lights very much.



So do you want surefire to play lumens game or not?

face it, there is no satisfying you, you demand a one cell, 200 lumen, TIR light with flat regulation(do you want two levels too? keep in mind the Malkoff M30 was single level and it also suffers from "poor regulation" as you might call it). If there is one other manufacturer that delivers a product satisfactory to your exact specification, I would say, yes, Surefire needs to try harder. SO you are not gonna buy this light, your repeated proclaimation of your disapproval of this light is....well repeated.

I have 3 E1Bs and my EB1 blows them out of the water. Surefire did a good job. If they can utilize more efficient LEDs in the future, that would be good too.


----------



## 270winchester

GLOCK 22 said:


> I just got my LX2 today and I like it way over the EB1. Nice white beam with no green tint to it. If you want a 200 lumen TIR optic then this is the one to have. This makes my second one and I've hated it ever since I let the first one go until I got this one today and now I satisfied and to me the EB1 is a thing of the past. The LX2 is brighter when compairing the two side by side.



I have an LX2 as well, maybe it's because it's an earlier production one(got it a while ago) and the EB1 seems noticeably brighter than it. That being said, the LX2 is a great 200 lumen TIR Flat Regulation 2 level light with a great UI. I'm not selling mine


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Just pulled out my LX2 and loaded it with fresh CR123's. Using bounce with a light meter my readings show an approximate output of 266 lumens after 1 minute. This compared to other Surefire lights I own, such as my current gen E2L which has the same TIR optic. Yes, the LX2 is awesome, and can be run with two RCR123's for the same output.

Bill


----------



## Viking

The LX2 is my favorite flashlight.


----------



## kelmo

Does anyone know if you can swap heads? I would like to mount the EB1 head on a traditional E1e tube with a Z68 as I am not a big fan of SF's current smooth anodization. 

Conversely, can I use an incan head on the EB1 tube and tail?

kelmo


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

kelmo said:


> Does anyone know if you can swap heads? I would like to mount the EB1 head on a traditional E1e tube with a Z68 as I am not a big fan of SF's current smooth anodization.
> 
> Conversely, can I use an incan head on the EB1 tube and tail?
> 
> kelmo



Yes to both, I just tried it to confirm. The finish on the late model E1E that I have is almost indistinguishable from the black matte finish on the EB1 to my eye. As earlier reported, you can also put the EB1 head on the E1B body. The Z68 helps you hold these small combos and, of course, does a real tail stand unlike the wobbly 'almost got it right' tail stand of the EB1 clicky.

SF seems to be reinventing the wheel with some of the features of the EB1 like the tail stand, regulation and tint.

Earlier E-series LED lights seemed to have these problems solved... :thinking:

Meanwhile, back on the SF 'value' line, Robin24k reports that the 6PX/G2X lights have already been updated with the brand new (and more efficient) Nichia 219B emitter after only a couple of years on the market:



Robin24k said:


> It's a 119B/219B, which has twice the efficiency of the 119A/219A. It's on page 7 of this PDF:
> 
> http://www.nichia.co.jp/specification/catalogue/2012_02/all/NICHIA_LED_Catalogue2012_02.pdf



http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...X-Pro-Thread&p=4077801&viewfull=1#post4077801

Has the early design choice of the optic in the EB1 limited that light to older, less efficient LED's perhaps? Or will the 'firmware update' fix things?


----------



## kelmo

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Yes to both, I just tried it to confirm. The finish on the late model E1E that I have is almost indistinguishable from the black matte finish on the EB1 to my eye. As earlier reported, you can also put the EB1 head on the E1B body. The Z68 helps you hold these small combos and, of course, does a real tail stand unlike the wobbly 'almost got it right' tail stand of the EB1 clicky...



Thanks V C in D!

I bought Glock 22's and it should be arriving in a day or two.

I will have two semi-unique SF Frankenlights soon.

The EB1 head on an E1e tube with a Z68 is going to be one very cool jacket pocket light!

Now if there is only a way to get the low beam to activate first...


----------



## doctordun

Has anyone received their EB1 back after sending in for an update?

Has anyone got one very recently and does it exhibit the same issues discussed in this thread?


----------



## Erzengel

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Has the early design choice of the optic in the EB1 limited that light to older, less efficient LED's perhaps? Or will the 'firmware update' fix things?



The newer LEDs are not suitable for compact and throwy lights, because they get their increased output by an increased die surface, which sacrifices throw.


----------



## Federal LG

Bullzeyebill said:


> Just pulled out my LX2 and loaded it with fresh CR123's. Using bounce with a light meter my readings show an approximate output of 266 lumens after 1 minute. This compared to other Surefire lights I own, such as my current gen E2L which has the same TIR optic. Yes, the LX2 is awesome, and can be run with two RCR123's for the same output.
> 
> Bill



Bill... I gotta say. First of all I got my eye on EB1 as my next Surefire. Right now I am thinking better about it and cant decide between EB1 and LX2.

I love SF natural anodized... and LX2 sizes is not too big as I thought.

Cant decide! Argh!!


----------



## kelmo

Hey Federal LG, I would get the LX2 first. Lots of good deals on them in Marketplace. I love mine.

Now back on topic, I love my new EB1! As I mentioned above I swapped heads with another light; the EB1 tube now has a KX1A head on it, I call it the "Eel" because it is long and slippery; and the EB1 head now rests on a grey E1e tube with a black Z68.

Why is the tailcap so long?!

When I first got my M3LT I was less than thrilled when I found out about the step down output curve. After a few camping trips I realized I did not notice this at all. This braced me for the almost identical EB1 output curve. 

After looking at the output curve I realized it looks just like an MN01/MN02/MNO3/P60 output curve except brighter and a little longer.

A tip of the hat to Glock 22 for giving me an awesome deal.

kelmo


----------



## Snareman

Not sure if this is somewhere in the thread, but sometimes with I light press mine on to 5lm I get a brief flash. Its not every time though. I'd say maybe 30%. Are others seeing this as well? Its not a huge problem, but I notice it.


----------



## Snareman

Here's a video review I just did on my EB1 Tactical


----------



## pjandyho

Thanks for the review Snareman! You did good there. The tactical version is the interface that I have always liked. Looking forward to having one.


----------



## Snareman

pjandyho said:


> Thanks for the review Snareman! You did good there. The tactical version is the interface that I have always liked. Looking forward to having one.



Thanks. Hope you get one soon!


----------



## DAN92

I bought the version of EB1 tactical switch for my Surefire collection.


----------



## Maxbelg

After reading everything I could about the EB1, I've just ordered another E1B. I just don't agree that for my personal needs a green tint and poor regulation are features to be desired. The E1B will complement my L1, 6th generation: Well-regulated single CR123 flashlights with good throw. If I need the throw of an EB1, I'll use RCRs in my L1 or use my LX2 (which is well-regulated). Your needs might differ, but I'll pass on this model and am hoping next generation Surefires will be more in keeping with what I personally find great features (good tint and regulation.) I'm not bashing Surefire in general: I have lots of Surefires that I really like, but this one isn't for me.


----------



## N/Apower

brianna said:


> All I want is a 200 lumen TIR optic light with good flat regulation that works. When things get complicated with fancy computer chips. The chances of this light putting you in the dark are going to increase greatly. I am waiting for them to tell us we need to do a restart when the flashlight fails.



Again, we had those half a decade ago. E1B + VME head + Malkoff M30 = 230 lumens, TIR optic, flat regulation, good run-time (as well as can be expected on 1 cell pulling at 1A).

Lego one together if that's your need.

Still, I am a huge fan of the current KX2C head. Mine is snowy white, perfect 6500K, great beam, throws very well, and it has been putting 400+ lumen lights to shame for usable hot-spot down-range.

I really think Surefire took a step back for the EB1 with the tint, etc. as noted.


----------



## 270winchester

N/Apower said:


> Again, we had those half a decade ago. E1B + VME head + Malkoff M30 = 230 lumens, TIR optic, flat regulation, good run-time (as well as can be expected on 1 cell pulling at 1A).
> 
> Lego one together if that's your need.
> 
> Still, I am a huge fan of the current KX2C head. Mine is snowy white, perfect 6500K, great beam, throws very well, and it has been putting 400+ lumen lights to shame for usable hot-spot down-range.
> 
> I really think Surefire took a step back for the EB1 with the tint, etc. as noted.



Ah the myth of the perfectly regulated EB1 Killer, the M30.

let me go ahead and quote a previous post in this very thread:



Kestrel said:


> Just to supply a clarification on the Malkoff M30, the above information is not correct; I have used the Malkoff M30 extensively and although it did have a regulation circuit, it did not perform nearly as well as people are describing, and did not exhibit "regulation" as the common vernacular has it, i.e. 'regulation' = flat regulation. Please note the information below, comparing the "regulation" of the M30 to the standard Malkoff M60:
> 
> 
> 
> Note with the data above that the M60 consumed a relatively constant amount of power from 9.5Vin all the way down to ~4.2Vin.
> However, look at the power consumed by the M30 over its rated voltage range of 5.5v down to ~1.5v - it compares to the ~240 lumen M60 at ~3.7Vin, but after that - look out below. At ~2.5Vin from 1xCR123, it is doing only ~150 lumens at its ~2.5 watts and is dropping quickly from there.
> 
> I had many dozens of hours on my M30 and became disenchanted with it compared to the M60 - it did do ~240 lumens initally *with a 3.7v LiIon*, but output declined immediately as voltage of the fresh cell dropped. On a 3v CR123 primary, its initial output was ~150 lumens - which also declined substantially during cell depletion - the opposite of 'flat' regulation as we like to think of it.
> 
> When the M31 came out, it was truly a revolutionary improvement over the M30: ~240 lumens of truly *flat* regulation for *40-45 minutes* from a single CR123 primary. Please feel free to review the main Malkoff M31 thread for more information on this - folks forget that the M31 was a vast improvement over the M30, both in output, efficiency, and *flat* regulation.
> 
> Our 1xCR123 benchmark should be the Malkoff M31 - the M30 does not even begin to compete.



the post that he was referring to:



MrGman said:


> M30 on a regulated power supply at various voltages and the current draw there of.
> 1.5V 0.84A 1.26W-----
> 2.0V 0.88A 1.76W-----
> 3.0V 0.97A 2.91W------
> 3.2V 1.00A 3.20W
> 3.6V 1.10A 3.96W-----
> 4.0V 1.29A 5.16W-----
> 4.2V 1.42A 5.96W------
> 4.5V 1.60A 7.20W
> 5.0V 1.89A 9.45W
> 
> M60__from Regulated power supply,
> Volts___amps___watts______,
> 3.0_____0.09____0.27__,
> 3.2_____0.22____0.70__,
> 3.5_____0.38____1.33__,
> 3.6_____0.51____1.84__,
> 3.8_____0.66____2.51__,
> 4.0_____0.86____3.44__,
> 4.2_____1.08____4.54__,
> 4.5_____0.85____3.83__,
> 4.7_____0.88____4.14__,
> 5.0_____0.80____4.00__,
> 5.5_____0.74____4.07__,
> 6.0_____0.69____4.14__,
> 7.0_____0.60____4.20__,
> 7.9_____0.56____4.42__,
> 8.0_____0.53____4.24__,
> 8.4_____0.50____4.20__,
> 8.5_____0.49____4.17__,
> 9.0_____0.47____4.23__,
> 9.5_____0.45____4.28__,
> 
> 
> From what I have seen you can't get maximum brightness of an M30 with the voltage available of only 2 C alkalines or 2 C NiMH. You could get it with 3 Alkalines if they hold up but it won't be for long. The output is not well regulated power wise. Increasing and decreasing the voltage did cause brightness changes. The changes in power consumption does correspond to output. I would not continually run the Malkoff M30 at 5V and over 9 watts of power. But it is definitely possible to get more out of the M30 running close to 5V than the M60 which is much better regulated. Just don't burn it up. As it was really designed to run off of 1X18650 or equivalent or maybe 3XAA NiMH the power in those cases comes in very close to the M60.
> 
> You have reminded me to take my M30 into the top secret bunker of truth and measure the lumens increase/decrease as a function of voltage/current changes and see what I can get. I have been busy doing lumens measurement of all the P7 and MC-E type lights that bigchelis has been bringing over. G


----------



## Maxbelg

N/Apower said:


> Again, we had those half a decade ago. E1B + VME head + Malkoff M30...............





270winchester said:


> Ah the myth of the perfectly regulated EB1 Killer, the M30.



I used an E1B, VME Head and M60W for a while and while I liked it a lot, I missed the 2 levels of the standard E1B. I occasionally put the VME head on a bored LX2 body and the M60W runs beautifully with two levels on a single 17670, but this is of course much bigger than an E1B. What I want is a two stage VME Head or a stow-stage single 123 Surefire host for use with the VME Head.


----------



## 270winchester

Maxbelg said:


> I used an E1B, VME Head and M60W for a while and while I liked it a lot, I missed the 2 levels of the standard E1B. I occasionally put the VME head on a bored LX2 body and the M60W runs beautifully with two levels on a single 17670, but this is of course much bigger than an E1B. What I want is a two stage VME Head or a stow-stage single 123 Surefire host for use with the VME Head.



Sounds like you are a prime customer for the EB1 Tactical body, the one with the L1-interface tailcap. How does the M60w run on an RCR123? Other than the lack of support for Primary CR123 it sounds pretty good.


----------



## 270winchester

kelmo said:


> The EB1 head on an E1e tube with a Z68 is going to be one very cool jacket pocket light!



I sometimes put my EB1 head on my Vital gear FB1 body. It's a real pocket rocket that way with built in bezel down clip


----------



## archimedes

270winchester said:


> I sometimes put my EB1 head on my Vital gear FB1 body. It's a real pocket rocket that way with built in bezel down clip



I thought I read somewhere earlier in this (80-page, lol) thread that the EB1 was _not_ E-series compatible? :thinking:


----------



## 270winchester

archimedes said:


> I thought I read somewhere earlier in this (80-page, lol) thread that the EB1 was _not_ E-series compatible? :thinking:



Lots of misinformation in this thread.  The EB1 body is not compatible with all other E series tail caps, but the head is fully E compatible. The tail threads seems to be designed for a L1-style UI(but not L1/LX2 compatible). Conversely EB1 tail caps don't work on all other E series bodies. In the big scope of things the EB1 should be thought as a one-off money saving substitute for the LX1 and not a member of the E family, after all the L1 and LX2 both have E compatible heads but a different modular class of body/tailcap.

I have a feeling it's cheaper to make a modified E1B tailcap and add a little to the threads on the E1B than shortening the LX2 and use the L1/L2/LX2/A2/AZ2/etc-series tail cap. Otherwise the price of the EB1 would be more like 200(like the LX2 in the beginning) rather than 150. 

It is true that in the near future there will be some confusion between E1B body/Tailcaps and EB1 body/tail caps. It gets worse since both E1B and EB1 bodies say "Back Up" but not E1B or EB1. 

WHo wants to start on a pool on when the first "got repalcement Back Up tail cap from Vendor X, doesn't work with Back Up body" thread will appear? Although since Surefire has a pretty good warranty, I can see this would only be a problem for E-series lego players,


----------



## Yourfun2

270winchester said:


> Sounds like you are a prime customer for the EB1 Tactical body, the one with the L1-interface tailcap. How does the M60w run on an RCR123? Other than the lack of support for Primary CR123 it sounds pretty good.


Has anyone done this? Have a pic.? Referring to EB1.

M60 should work fine with RCR.


----------



## 270winchester

Yourfun2 said:


> Has anyone done this? Have a pic.? Referring to EB1.
> 
> M60 should work fine with RCR.



Does it simply work or is it regulated? From the post from MrGman it seems like the M60 does not run at full brightness at anything under 4.2v, and my M60 runs visibly dimmer than full output on a 17670, so I can't imagine an M60W running in regulation with 1 RCR. This might result in, say, "poor regulation". "poor runtime Curve", "poor output", "apology from Gene needed", "recall needed", etc, etc. I can foresee the start of another misconception of the 2nd EB1 killer, the "M60W+VMEhead+E1B Tactical body = fully regulated 2 level optic 235 lumen 2 hour runtime on one primary CR123!" 



> M60__from Regulated power supply,
> Volts___amps___watts______,
> 3.0_____0.09____0.27__,
> 3.2_____0.22____0.70__,
> 3.5_____0.38____1.33__,
> 3.6_____0.51____1.84__,
> 3.8_____0.66____2.51__,
> 4.0_____0.86____3.44__,
> 4.2_____1.08____4.54__,
> 4.5_____0.85____3.83__,



Just to clarify I am a fan of Gene's products and have more Malkoff products than I would like to admit. the M60 was and still is one of my favorite LED module of all time.


----------



## Maxbelg

270winchester said:


> Sounds like you are a prime customer for the EB1 Tactical body, the one with the L1-interface tailcap. How does the M60w run on an RCR123? Other than the lack of support for Primary CR123 it sounds pretty good.



The M60w runs in regulation for about 15minutes and then the voltage is less than 3,8V and that is the end of regulation. There is no noticeable dimming for a while after that, but I haven't timed it until I notice dimming. I haven't done a full runtime test yet either as I tend to change the batteries when I notice dimming. During the regulated runtime and for a while thereafter it has AMAZING throw. It seems to me to have more throw than my LX2, but has a smaller hotspot and I haven't done LUX measurements.

Earlier someone wrote that the tactical body EB1 only gives 1 level with a VME Head?!? I thought it would have two levels and only the clicky tailcap EB1 would have a single level. Anyway I find the EB1 tactical with VME Head might be interesting if it has 2 levels, but I still like my L1 with IMRs a lot and don't see a huge advantage here except of course to be able to run Malkoff Modules with 2 levels.

My "new" 80 Lumen E1B arrived today and I love it. I thought it had an amazing tint when I shone it at a white wall until I compared it to some others and then I realized it has just a slight green tint but I wouldn't have noticed unless compared to pure white tints. This E1B has a noticeably brighter but slightly smaller hotspot than my L1 on primaries and just a little less than my L1 on RCRs!!! This is interesting because my L1 had a brighter hotspot than 2 previous E1Bs I had on primaries and my "new" E1B is an old 80 lumen model. Having more than 90 minutes of regulated runtime on a primary with this throwy beam makes it a winner for me.


----------



## Maxbelg

270winchester said:


> Does it simply work or is it regulated? From the post from MrGman it seems like the M60 does not run at full brightness at anything under 4.2v, and my M60 runs visibly dimmer than full output on a 17670, so I can't imagine an M60W running in regulation with 1 RCR. This might result in, say, "poor regulation".
> [/SIZE][/FONT]


This topic has been discussed before. Personally I don't notice a difference in output running my M60W on a single 17670 or even IMR16340 compared to two primaries. I prefer the regulated runtime for a while and then a nice loooong taper to the full output-total darkness I had with a M30w on a single 17670 or what you'll probably have running two primaries. With rechargeables I can always leave with a topped up cell, have nice output for a while and long runtime in case I need it and never suddenly be left in the dark. The M60 has my ideal runtime chart: Nice regulated runtime until the cells are reasonably depleted and then a gradual decline giving you ample opportunity to change batteries. That is also why I sold the M30w and kept the M60w. That and the fact that I was worried I'd forget about the voltage limit and stick two RCRs in the M30w host I was using!


----------



## Kestrel

Maxbelg said:


> This topic has been discussed before. [...]



I concur. I can provide a quick beamshot comparison, but for further M60 info please refer to the thread cited below, this conversation is taking the EB1 thread a bit off topic. Best regards,

*Malkoff M60 & M30 Runtimes,etc
*


Kestrel said:


> Malkoff M60 on 2x17500 (2xAW 1100 mAh)______ Malkoff M60 on 1x18650 (AW 2600 mAh)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Malkoff M60 on 2x17500 (2xAW 1100 mAh)______ Malkoff M60 on 1x18650 (AW 2600 mAh)


----------



## 270winchester

Maxbelg said:


> The M60w runs in regulation for about 15minutes and then the voltage is less than 3,8V and that is the end of regulation. There is no noticeable dimming for a while after that, but I haven't timed it until I notice dimming. I haven't done a full runtime test yet either as I tend to change the batteries when I notice dimming. During the regulated runtime and for a while thereafter it has AMAZING throw. It seems to me to have more throw than my LX2, but has a smaller hotspot and I haven't done LUX measurements.



But "noticeable dimming" is a very, very subjective measure since it now encroaches on the verge of "visual perception" which no one wants hear when criticizing the EB1's runtime graph. I have not noticed a significant amount of dimming on the EB1 for most of an hour. 


Kestrel said:


> Search, I took a few beamshots for you today:
> *Each pair were taken while holding exposure constant.*
> 
> Malkoff M60 on 2x17500 (2xAW 1100 mAh)____ Malkoff M60 on 1x18650 (AW 2600 mAh)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Malkoff M60 on 2x17500 (2xAW 1100 mAh)____ Malkoff M60 on 1x18650 (AW 2600 mAh)



seems like the 1x18650 is noticeably dimmer than the 2x primaries and not regulated from start.



> My "new" 80 Lumen E1B arrived today and I love it. I thought it had an amazing tint when I shone it at a white wall until I compared it to some others and then I realized it has just a slight green tint but I wouldn't have noticed unless compared to pure white tints. This E1B has a noticeably brighter but slightly smaller hotspot than my L1 on primaries and just a little less than my L1 on RCRs!!! This is interesting because my L1 had a brighter hotspot than 2 previous E1Bs I had on primaries and my "new" E1B is an old 80 lumen model. Having more than 90 minutes of regulated runtime on a primary with this throwy beam makes it a winner for me.



I have owned L1s for a long time every since the first Cree ones. In fact I was among the first batch of buyers that received defective units with the output pulse due to a circuit problem. I have since bough another l1 and 3 E1Bs. My EB1 DESTROYS them.



> This topic has been discussed before. Personally I don't notice a difference in output running my M60W on a single 17670 or even IMR16340 compared to two primaries. I prefer the regulated runtime for a while and then a nice loooong taper to the full output-total darkness I had with a M30w on a single 17670 or what you'll probably have running two primaries.


How do you know the length of regulation if you never did a runtime test?

The EB1 offers this: no perceptible dimming(to my eyes, YMMV) in brightness for most of an hour and a long taper to darkness. On one PRIMARY CR123. Stock. Two levels. TIR.

It's confusing since in some cases you are satisfied with "no perceptible dimming" or "it's regulated but not at full brightness" on an RCR123(which inherently gives the perception of flat output), but other times they demend an absolute flat regulation from a primary 123, keep in mind that the EB1 runs on GREAT regulation with a 3v R123



Robin24k said:


> Runtime test...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


----------



## Kestrel

Kestrel said:


> for further M60 info please refer to the thread cited below, this conversation is taking the EB1 thread a bit off topic.


----------



## 270winchester

sorry, got distracted by the great beamshotss


----------



## Yourfun2

Maxbelg said:


> Earlier someone wrote that the tactical body EB1 only gives 1 level with a VME Head?!? I thought it would have two levels and only the clicky tailcap EB1 would have a single level. Anyway I find the EB1 tactical with VME Head might be interesting if it has 2 levels, but I still like my L1 with IMRs a lot and don't see a huge advantage here except of course to be able to run Malkoff Modules with 2 levels.



I was running a VME head with M61 219 on a E1B body, but have now put the VME head on a E2D body. The E1B body is now hosting the E2D head and tail cap. I really like the look and feel of this combination. The EB1 would be an expensive solution for the VME head. but then I could put the EB1 head on the E2D body. All this Legoing is therapy and helps with my Alzheimer's. Maybe I can write it off on my 1040.


----------



## Maxbelg

270winchester said:


> How do you know the length of regulation if you never did a runtime test?........
> It's confusing since in some cases you are satisfied with "no perceptible dimming" or "it's regulated but not at full brightness" on an RCR123(which inherently gives the perception of flat output), but other times they demend an absolute flat regulation from a primary 123........



I am trying to decide whether to buy the EB1 based on what I already have and what additional features it offers which appeal to me personally. If I want throw in a small package and runtime is not important I have the VME-M60 option or else the L1 with RCRs. The EB1 will only "blow the L1 on RCRs out of the water" for a few minutes looking at its runtime chart. There is another thread wherin the L1 on RCR compared very favorably to the EB1 on a primary for 40 minutes until the RCR was depleted.

Seeing as the M60 is regulated to 3,8V, I wanted to know how long it takes before that voltage is reached on a single IMR 16340. This is not a full runtime test. I am satisfied with this for what it is: a home-made lego. I don't want to buy a flashlight with this short period of regulated runtime.


----------



## 270winchester

Maxbelg said:


> The EB1 will only "blow the L1 on RCRs out of the water" *for a few minutes* looking at its runtime chart. There is another thread wherin the L1 on RCR compared very favorably to the EB1 on a primary for 40 minutes until the RCR was depleted.



For about 30 minutes actually.

I think you were thinking of this graph by 880arm



880arm said:


> EB110,979E2DL8,746LX2 #1 (A24309)8,369LX2 #2 (A43439)7,992L1 Lumamax (on AW16340)7,373L1 Lumamax4,440E1B (110 lumen)4,279


You raise a good point. Here the EB1 on a primary *CR123* compares very favorably with the L1 on *RCR123*(which is actually not as regulated as it was rumored to be), but after the L1 goes to darkness the EB1 gracefully steps down for another hour. Pretty good on EB1's part if I may say so.

In fact this entire comparison between the L1 on RCR123 versus EB1 is bizarre since there hasn't been a integrated sphere test of the EB1's lumen output yet so we don't actually know what it's putting out at the beginning. Do you have a source of data that points to the actual lumen output of the L1 on rechargeables? Clearly it is driving the LED harder than primary CR123s but as the rating has always been 65 lumens for the L1 Crees we don't really know either number.



> Seeing as the M60 is regulated to 3,8V,



how do you draw that conclusion? MrGman's data on regulated power supply disagrees:



> M60__from Regulated power supply,
> Volts___amps___watts______,
> 3.0_____0.09____0.27__,
> 3.2_____0.22____0.70__,
> 3.5_____0.38____1.33__,
> 3.6_____0.51____1.84__,
> 3.8_____0.66____2.51__,
> 4.0_____0.86____3.44__,
> 4.2_____1.08____4.54__,
> 4.5_____0.85____3.83__,





I must say this has been a most interesting discussion. It is nice that people have put so much thought into finding a comparable light to the EB1 and so far no one has been able to provide a light that can beat the EB1 in that little niche, the niche being a TIR 200 lumen multi-mode 1xCR123 that doesn't require a 4.2v RCR123 to reach maximum brightness(whereas it appears the M30, M60, and L1 all share the need for 4.2v to get their max output as a one cell light). We all like to see flat regulation, I'm sure. I look forward to something that does all that and more.


----------



## Maxbelg

270winchester said:


> I must say this has been a most interesting discussion...........



I agree with this bit!  

As always it seems people can use the same data and come to different conclusions. That is of course because our PERSONAL requirements differ. I'm not after a flashlight which is not well-regulated on a primary just to achieve more throw initially. If this is achieved on a rechargeable option it is much more interesting FOR ME because I can always leave home with a fresh battery. The way I PERSONALLY use flashlights with primaries is to run them until they are very near empty and carry a back-up primary battery. Ideally therefore output should be quite constant and a short warning to exchange batteries is sufficient for flashlights running on primaries. This is why FOR ME the E1B is a great option. The L1 on primaries is equally good and of course I have the rechargeable option if I need more throw and I can leave with a fully charged RCR. The M60w VME Head is similar (to me) functionally to the L1 on RCRs except that I don't have 2 levels: small pocket-rocket with short "regulated" runtime. Regulation is, I concur, not perfect with these either, but I always leave with a topped-up cell.

So in summary I "play" with the L1 RCR/VME M60w when I want throw, but I find the E1B or L1 on a primary a better balanced and useful setup. For MY PERSONAL needs the EB1 falls into the "play" category but expensive play as it "plays" with primaries. The ideal niche for the EB1 I think is as a real back-up which doesn't get used unless in an emergency. Surefire might have designed the EB1 for real back-up duty and then the runtime chart is of no consequence and a necessary evil to achieve the initial output on a primary. That way you have a reliable primary battery, good throw and output when needed, but I want to use the flashlights I carry and not designate them to back-up duty. After using the EB1 a bit it loses this initial advantage to the E1B and L1 which soldier on nicely and with good output until it is time to swap cells.

For YOUR NEEDS the EB1 might be perfect. I hope you enjoy the light, I'll pass on this one.


----------



## leon2245

Maxbelg said:


> I agree with this bit!
> 
> As always it seems people can use the same data and come to different conclusions. That is of course because our PERSONAL requirements differ. I'm not after a flashlight which is not well-regulated on a primary just to achieve more throw initially. If this is achieved on a rechargeable option it is much more interesting FOR ME because I can always leave home with a fresh battery. The way I PERSONALLY use flashlights with primaries is to run them until they are very near empty and carry a back-up primary battery. Ideally therefore output should be quite constant and a short warning to exchange batteries is sufficient for flashlights running on primaries. This is why FOR ME the E1B is a great option. The L1 on primaries is equally good and of course I have the rechargeable option if I need more throw and I can leave with a fully charged RCR. The M60w VME Head is similar (to me) functionally to the L1 on RCRs except that I don't have 2 levels: small pocket-rocket with short "regulated" runtime. Regulation is, I concur, not perfect with these either, but I always leave with a topped-up cell.
> 
> So in summary I "play" with the L1 RCR/VME M60w when I want throw, but I find the E1B or L1 on a primary a better balanced and useful setup. For MY PERSONAL needs the EB1 falls into the "play" category but expensive play as it "plays" with primaries. The ideal niche for the EB1 I think is as a real back-up which doesn't get used unless in an emergency. *Surefire might have designed the EB1 for real back-up duty and then the runtime chart is of no consequence and a necessary evil to achieve the initial output on a primary. That way you have a reliable primary battery, good throw and output when neede*d, but I want to use the flashlights I carry and not designate them to back-up duty. After using the EB1 a bit it loses this initial advantage to the E1B and L1 which soldier on nicely and with good output until it is time to swap cells.
> 
> For YOUR NEEDS the EB1 might be perfect. I hope you enjoy the light, I'll pass on this one.



Good point.

I wouldn't even say "might"- SF literally stamped the purpose you describe right there on the body. I wouldn't trade an L1 for one either, especially looking at that graph, but in a dedicated backup role where it only has to temporarily replace a 2cell 200l sf, it makes sense. Only having to sustain that output for a few minutes, a fast decline after that is okay.


----------



## djdawg

I dont know much at all about the science of lights , but upon reading and following this thread , 
It has talked me out of getting one of these lights.


----------



## Yourfun2

I was convinced long ago that I wasn't interested, but this thread has been a fascinating journey. Now I'm actually considering buying one. That is, if the tail cap will make the Valiant VME head function with 2 light levels. Anyone know for sure?


----------



## Maxbelg

Yourfun2 said:


> ................if the tail cap will make the Valiant VME head function with 2 light levels. Anyone know for sure?



I'd also be interested in this. It'd be a very expensive way to have a nicely anodizing-matched single CR123 two-stage host for Malkoff drop-ins.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Yourfun2 said:


> I was convinced long ago that I wasn't interested, but this thread has been a fascinating journey. Now I'm actually considering buying one. That is, if the tail cap will make the Valiant VME head function with 2 light levels. Anyone know for sure?



The VME head with a Malkoff M61 on an EB1 clicky body is single mode as perhaps previously reported, just tried it again. The complex 16K flash memory microcontroller circuitry for the EB1 to select the two modes is all in the head from what I can see.


----------



## Maxbelg

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> ............EB1 clicky body............two modes is all in the head.......


This is what I'd expect like the E1B. The big question is whether the EB1s with two-stage tailcaps use a different head and if so whether it functions correctly with a VME Head?


----------



## 270winchester

Maxbelg said:


> For YOUR NEEDS the EB1 might be perfect. I hope you enjoy the light, I'll pass on this one.



At the end of the day Surefire wins either way, got us all hopped up and arguing over their products.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Maxbelg said:


> This is what I'd expect like the E1B. The big question is whether the EB1s with two-stage tailcaps use a different head and if so whether it functions correctly with a VME Head?



According to an earlier post on this thread:



Robin24k said:


> Both, but both lights use the same head.



http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...n-Flashlight&p=4070102&viewfull=1#post4070102

Does the VME head with a Malkoff dropin give two levels with some previous combo of SF body and tailcap? I know there is some decoder ring for Gene's MD2 light but it never seems to be in stock when I look.


----------



## Yourfun2

According to other threads, the VME has 2 modes with L1 , L2 and A2. ?


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Yourfun2 said:


> According to other threads, the VME has 2 modes with L1 , L2 and A2. ?



Thanks, I got an A2L and LX2 to do two levels with the VME head, tried three different generation L1's with no luck, maybe the spring on my M61 is not hitting the little center contact in the L1's properly.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

If the EB1 Tactical has the same or a similar tailcap as the L1, L2, LX2, then a low mode for the Tactical can only be obtained using such a tailcap, which uses a resistor for the low mode. Just thinking out loud here as I do not own either one of the EB1's. I do own the LX2, and it uses a resistor in the tailcap as does the LI, L2, requiring twisting of the tailcap, or a short press to have a low output. A little wordy tonight, please forgive me.

Bill


----------



## 270winchester

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Thanks, I got an A2L and LX2 to do two levels with the VME head, tried three different generation L1's with no luck, maybe the spring on my M61 is not hitting the little center contact in the L1's properly.



I can't imagine any of the L1s, or L2 and A2 for that matter, working with a VME head since all the L's and A2 have electronics in the body. You would need a two stage tail cap and an empty body tube(eg LX2) for this to work, much like the McE2S of years back(that was a whole other saga all together).

I still have an Aleph 1 cell tube and McE2s tailcap I use with a KL4 on RCR123s as a flood light. I don't know if the sandwiche shop still sells them or not, but that would be the only way I can think of to run one cell 2 stage with VME heads short of someone confirming the EB1 tactical body/tailcap combo works in the same manner.


----------



## Maxbelg

I haven't tried the L1 with VME head and don't think it's a good idea either. You'll just have two drivers working against each other: makes me think of Windows: Might have a driver-clash!!! I'm more of a Mac person myself  The way to use the L1 would be to remove the driver and run a larger rechargeable like a 17500, although I haven't tried this.

The LX2/ A2L both work beautifully on a single 17670 and the VME head with Malkoff drop in. (They need some convincing to accept the 17670) with the low level of the M60 being more or less comparable to the LX2's low. With 2 RCRs the low is much too high and not that much lower than high!


----------



## Seijin

I was really enjoying my EBI until I read this thread. Now I'm depressed.


----------



## brianna

I don't blame you, I too am depressed over the EB1. The E1B was the hook that got me into flashlights. That light came out 4 yrs ago so when the basically unregulated EB1 came out I was very depressed. I thought this new model would be even more incredible. Glad I did not sell all my E1B lights. I did not anticipate the new EB1 to be a failure.


----------



## dano

brianna said:


> I don't blame you, I too am depressed over the EB1. The E1B was the hook that got me into flashlights. That light came out 4 yrs ago so when the basically unregulated EB1 came out I was very depressed. I thought this new model would be even more incredible. Glad I did not sell all my E1B lights. I did not anticipate the new EB1 to be a failure.



Why is it a failure? Because of a graph? I've had one for a month, put three cells through it, and it's been a great light that does what it's supposed to do, irregardless of what some graph says.


----------



## leon2245

Seijin said:


> I was really enjoying my EBI until I read this thread. Now I'm depressed.



What could possibly have been invalidated about what you were enjoying about it by this thread?

Weighing the internet disappointment of those who don't even have one over your actual experience?! Meanwhile the output decline in actual use is not as stark as seems when looking at line graphs does it? I'd go with THAT!


----------



## Lodogg2221

Seijin said:


> I was really enjoying my EBI until I read this thread. Now I'm depressed.



Well, how about this. Ill give you $75 for it, and then you can be happy again, and so can I!


----------



## brianna

dano said:


> Why is it a failure? Because of a graph? I've had one for a month, put three cells through it, and it's been a great light that does what it's supposed to do, irregardless of what some graph says.


My disappointment is because the regulation is almost as bad as a old fashioned D cell incandescent flashlight. Of course the D light has no regulation. The old E1b had excellent regulation and started me on this hobby. I thought the flat regulation was the premium I was paying for. I see no reason to own a expensive light with little to no regulation. Might as well go to Walmart and purchase a cheap light. You may even get better regulation. The quest for best is how I found this web site. I am perplexed such knowledgable people would even consider this light worthy to own.


----------



## Robin24k

If you are purchasing a power supply, then poor regulation would be a dealbreaker and you would be right. However, this is a flashlight, and regulation isn't the core feature - that would be emitting light, which the EB1 definately does (and it's better at it than the E1B).



brianna said:


> I am perplexed such knowledgable people would even consider this light worthy to own.


A better question to ask is why is perfectly flat regulation of extreme utmost importance to you? I am really perplexed by that.


----------



## kyhunter1

Good regulation is a deal breaker for me on any expensive light, not just the EB1. NOW, I agree that the EB1 is brighter than the old E1B for most of it's runtime. Definitely has alot more throw. But that's not enough for me to justify spending a $150 on this light. If you guys like the EB1, then that's perfectly fine, and I hope you all get years of enjoyment from this light. No offense to anyone and no pun intended. The one I handled had a excellent tight beam and tint. Home run there. I think that SF could have used a XPE2, and toned down the output to around 175 lumens and that would have made the regulation much nicer without compromising the beam/output charactaristics too much. Another big miss was the wobbly tailstand clicky switch which could have been easily avoided by making the shround just a mm or so longer. No brainer. All of this has been intisively haggled already in this thread. Something I really like about the EB1 besides the TIR beam is the L series two stage style switch on the tactical version. It justifies the added length and imcompatibility with other E series switches. This alone makes me want a EB1 tactical just for the body/tailcap so I can put a VME/Malkoff on it. But at the price of the EB1, that want happen for a while on my budget. Maybe I can snag one cheaper on the marketplace. If I do, the head will be modded just to see if the regulation can be made any better on a single cell than what SF came up with. Maybe it cant be made better, but you never no till you try. No pun or offense to anyone intended with any of my comments above.


----------



## Yourfun2

Two questions haven't been answered in the last few days. 

1. Will the VME head have 2 modes when attached to the EB1?

2. Why is good regulation so important to so many people?


----------



## 270winchester

kyhunter1 said:


> I think that SF could have used a XPE2, and toned down the output to around 175 lumens and that would have made the regulation much nicer without compromising the beam/output charactaristics too much.





brianna said:


> All I want is a 200 lumen TIR optic light with good flat regulation that works.





brianna said:


> I really want a single cell light. Never really liked 2 cell lights very much.





brianna said:


> I too am depressed over the EB1.




yeah but that would still leave Brianna somewhat depressed.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

CPF Rule 4 guys. Let's not attack the poster, attack the post. Different opinions abound. Just hear them out, and post re the content of the post, not the poster.

Bill


----------



## ico

What a good read. All are valid arguments. Except for that one that just wouldn't let go. It's like crying over a spilt milk that happened 6 months ago. You already said it. No more point in saying it again and again with just different words and even conflicting with yourself sometime.

Even saying it is not regulated just because its regulation is not the same as the E1B. Have you read the link about icon flashlights and how its regulation may seem to be "not regulated" but is actually regulated...

You may have won the battle because the EB1 sure had flaws but you have no right of shoving it to our faces just because you were right and we were just giving surefire an equal opportunity of either being successful in the EB1 or not.

How would you feel if your own kid failed at one little exam and we all just said that he/she will grow up with no job and lifestyle just because of that single mistake. After all it is you who said that it is all in the graph. In which your kids' position (lowest) within his or her class' graph if you plot their points over that single exam.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

ico, you were probably writing when I did post 824. This thread will be closed if members continue to attack each other about their positions. We are talking about a flashlight here, not a life or death situation. Ok to post the advantages of a "regulated" light vs the advantages of an apparently not too well regulated light, but that is about as far as it should go. Be polite here!

Bill


----------



## 270winchester

kyhunter1 said:


> I think that SF could have used a XPE2... without compromising the beam charactaristics too much.



Do you have experience in optics? Gene has an open invitation to anyone who has ideas on which optic to use for an XP-G2. If you have expertise in this why not help the MDC to be the ultimate EB1 killer? 3 modes, TIR, 290 lumens for ~30 minutes, etc, etc.



Gene43 said:


> If anyone knows of a TIR optic which will work with a provide consistent good results with the XP-G2 (no hollow hot spots, half moons, super ringy spills, homogenous tint), I am all ears. Most people are not aware of the battles that were fought with the M60. At this time I do not have the 5-6 figures that would be needed to design/produce a custom optic.


----------



## ico

Sorry to be like that but this has been like this since last year. I was already following this thread long before and was just keeping it silent. But like winchester i've had enough of it. Maybe closing this would be for the better because i'm sure that enabler would never stop.


----------



## kyhunter1

Some experience. It's very hard to get a completely artifact free beam with them besides going with a flood optic which is not what we want with the EB1 or MDC. There is several different optics out there that might work with the XPG style emmitters, but... It will most always have a ring in the beam or sometimes a hollow spot. Carclo makes some pretty good spot beam optics that may work. I love the beam on my old model E1B even with the onion ring artifacts. But... Gene knows that artifacts will not go over well with his lights, so I dont blame him for being cautious. Another cpf member named neofab made P60 optics xpg modules a few years back with a tight beam. Im pretty sure they used the Carclo's. The beams were pretty nice, but not always perfect. I dont know if they are even made anymore or not. Just something to think about. 




270winchester said:


> Do you have experience in optics? Gene has an open invitation to anyone who has ideas on which optic to use for an XP-G2. If you have expertise in this why not help the MDC to be the ultimate EB1 killer? 3 modes, TIR, 290 lumens for ~30 minutes, etc, etc.


----------



## brianna

Robin24k said:


> A better question to ask is why is perfectly flat regulation of extreme utmost importance to you? I am really perplexed by that.



When I first found this forum and learned about regulation. To be able to own a light that can keep uniform maximum brightness right up to the end of battery life, was like flashlight entering advanced technology! Then I learned about lithium batteries that ran this marvel of technology. My old D cell mag light getting dim so fast was placed in the recycle bin. So to me having long flat regulation is as exciting as having cheap cell phone plans for you people old enough to remember the $5000 cell phones and $5 min talk plan. Those phones did not even use digital technology that we have now. So to me crap regulation is just too close to that old fashioned light I threw away. Regulation is a technological advancement I did not even know existed till I learned about it here.


----------



## Seijin

leon2245 said:


> What could possibly have been invalidated about what you were enjoying about it by this thread?
> 
> Weighing the internet disappointment of those who don't even have one over your actual experience?! Meanwhile the output decline in actual use is not as stark as seems when looking at line graphs does it? I'd go with THAT!




Actually, I was being sarcastic, I am enjoying the light. But by most forum accounts ,I should be quite disappointed.


----------



## 270winchester

kyhunter1 said:


> Some experience. It's very hard to get a completely artifact free beam with them besides going with a flood optic which is not what we want with the EB1 or MDC. There is several different optics out there that might work with the XPG style emmitters, but... It will most always have a ring in the beam or sometimes a hollow spot.



So that's good to know, XPGs don't play well with TIRs.

But wasn't XPE2 just released back in late September? For a sizable manufacturing operation 2 months isn't always enough to do testing and procure enough stock to start producing and delivering, isn't it? 

Based on the progress of this thread, back in June EB1 was already in pipeline, and based on this confidential information:



brianna said:


> November 2012 release date is not going to happen. Confidential production problem has now changed the release date to Jan - March 2013.



it was already in production by late october/early november. By then I'm certain all the parts have been ordered and some have arrived, toolings all set, QA scheduled, etc. I don't expect them to alter all existing supply, production, QA, and shipping plans to make the runtime graph look a little better.

Perhaps a future update to the EB1 will include switching to XPE2.


----------



## Lurveleven

270winchester said:


> But wasn't XPE2 just released back in late September? For a sizable manufacturing operation 2 months isn't always enough to do testing and procure enough stock to start producing and delivering, isn't it?



I guess SureFire have had XPE2 samples long before September.


----------



## 270winchester

Lurveleven said:


> I guess SureFire have had XPE2 samples long before September.



*shrug*

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe in order to produce it at the scale they want, there were quantity or consistency issues that needed to be worked out before they can jump on XPE2's, or maybe after their testing XPE2s differ enough from XPEs enough to need a tweak of the TIRs. We don't know any of that. If you have reliable sources of info please indicate so. 

So, can anyone suggest a 1 CR123, TIR, flat regulated 200+ lumen light? I'm itching to buy a EB1 killer. Anyone?


----------



## Kestrel

270winchester said:


> So, can anyone suggest a 1 CR123, TIR, flat regulated 200+ lumen light? I'm itching to buy a EB1 killer. Anyone?


Please feel free to utilize a separate thread for that discussion, thank you. Best regards,


----------



## KeeblerElf

Yourfun2 said:


> Two questions haven't been answered in the last few days.
> 
> 1. Will the VME head have 2 modes when attached to the EB1?
> 
> 2. Why is good regulation so important to so many people?



I would like to share why I feel good regulation is important.

Essentially, if I've paid for a light with a stated output and runtime, I expect the light to produce the advertised output over the advertised run time (more or less, and of course these expectations are modified when the runtime is given a specific definition, as in the case of Surefire lights). This is a big part of how honest I view the manufacturer's ratings as well (eg, a timed step-down is fine if advertised; a light that continuously dims is simply not doing what it's supposed to be doing over most of the battery life). In real use, for a user who selects lights in a roughly intelligent way (ie, the highest setting is just high enough or a little higher than necessary - perfectly reasonable for EDC lights IMO), a poorly regulated light is then useful for far less time than a light with good regulation. There is also, I think, a nice sense of reliability in a regulated light: ie, every time I use the light on a given setting, I know exactly what to expect (I would think this consistency is even more important for people who truly rely on their equipment). This gives me a nice familiarity and sense of confidence in choosing the appropriate output level (my Zebralight SC600 comes to mind here - excellent regulation on all levels).

Poor regulation has stopped cold my interest in a number of lights, and I suspect it will continue to do so. That being said, I view statements like those given on Malkoff's equipment as being very honest (eg, runs regulated for 1.5 hours followed by a long taper).


----------



## 270winchester

My current configuration with the EB1 head. Still on original battery and it is still kicking all my E1B's behinds. Beautiful beam too, 2 of my 3 E1Bs have noticeable rings and artifacts, none of which exist in the EB1 beam.

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x415/whitemerc2010/photo_zps7ee07b7f.jpg



Your image is too large and has been replaced with a link. Please resize and repost.
See Rule #3 If you post an image in your post, please downsize the image to no larger than 800 x 800 pixels. - Thanks Norm


----------



## kelmo

The EB1 fits nicely in a Maxpedition 4" sheath.


----------



## Litbobber

Hi all,great thread. Anyone know where to get a good deal on one in silver?

Thanks


----------



## Believer

Lodogg2221 said:


> Well, how about this. Ill give you $75 for it, and then you can be happy again, and so can I!



I'll give you $80 LOL


----------



## Glock 22

Litbobber said:


> Hi all,great thread. Anyone know where to get a good deal on one in silver?
> 
> Thanks



B&H Photo is the cheapest place I know of.


----------



## Believer

Litbobber said:


> Hi all,great thread. Anyone know where to get a good deal on one in silver?
> 
> Thanks



Batteryjunction.com has them for $154.00 E1BC in both black and silver and E1BT in black.

Got a silver one for the wife and a black one for myself. 

98% happy with them!!

Only thing I would change is the tailcap on the EB1C. Wish it was deeper like the E2DL Defender, so it would stand on end better.

As with all Surefire's, it's a very nice piece of equiptment.


----------



## Believer

GLOCK 22 said:


> B&H Photo is the cheapest place I know of.



I looked at the b and h website and I'm frankly not impressed.

Check out Batteryjunction.com

Better pricing and better selection.

Plus they sell batteries pretty cheap too.

I've bought from them over a dozen times without a single complaint.


----------



## Kestrel

No dealer discussions please.
Thank you,


----------



## 2000xlt

why the heck did i think it was not regulated,,,too many flashlights to ponder!


----------



## TMCGLASSON36

Got my tactical version yesterday and absolutely lovin it. The tint is pure white and perfect. This is my first Surefire and TIR and I'm sold. I have read this thread all the way threw and the regulation problems and the other but the light is making me smile. Now looking at the E2DL!!

Does any body know if its the tailswitch makes the difference between the CLICKY and TACTICAL or is it the head? Would like the shroud but coming on in low is a must for me.


----------



## Robin24k

TMCGLASSON36 said:


> Does any body know if its the tailswitch makes the difference between the CLICKY and TACTICAL or is it the head? Would like the shroud but coming on in low is a must for me.


You are correct. However, I don't see why you need a shroud on the tactical version...accidental constant-on activation is not possible.

I'm not too fond of the shroud though, as it gets in the way of activation...


----------



## TMCGLASSON36

Robin24k said:


> You are correct. However, I don't see why you need a shroud on the tactical version...accidental constant-on activation is not possible.
> 
> I'm not too fond of the shroud though, as it gets in the way of activation...



What I was asking is the if you put the shroud tailswitch on a tactical version would it still come on in low. Im wanting a second EB1 for the house and the wife and kids like a clicky.


----------



## Robin24k

No, both versions use the same head.


----------



## TMCGLASSON36

Robin24k said:


> No, both versions use the same head.


You think the guts would change out to do what I want. Just curious.


----------



## Robin24k

It might be possible, but you would need to break threadlocking glue before you can disassemble it.


----------



## TMCGLASSON36

But if I switch the guts no clicky. Guess they are going to get a E1B with a Z68 and Ill do a Led swap got some XPG gen2 in. Thanks!


----------



## tsl

Now that some folks are receiving the EB1 Tactical, can anyone comment on the ergonomics of the light compared to the Cree L1 (the most recent version L1 before SF discontinued them). I had the L1 but found the length to be too short to easily rotate the tailcap for the two constant-on modes. On the other hand, I found the tailcap easy to rotate on the A2, L2, and LX2 due to the increased length. I am wondering if the extra 1/2" on the EB1 makes that much of a difference.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

TMCGLASSON36 said:


> But if I switch the guts no clicky. Guess they are going to get a E1B with a Z68 and Ill do a Led swap got some XPG gen2 in. Thanks!



I put a 5000K XP-G2 in an E1B and it's a good combo. The original emitter was glued on pretty good with a thin board, I had to chip it off the the heat sink with brute force. The XP-G2 was on a thicker board and has a larger die so the focus is not as tight with the optic. The head has to be loosened a couple of millimeters for best results but the o-ring still seals I believe. Nice beam with generous spill though, just used it to spot five deer in the back forty.

Of course, the E1B also comes on high first, and does a real tailstand with the Z68 unlike the wobbly EB1 clicky.


----------



## TMCGLASSON36

I sent you a pm. The lower outout of E1B shouldn't be a problem coming on in high. Thanks.


----------



## Yourfun2

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Of course, the EB1 also comes on high first, and does a real tailstand with the Z68 unlike the wobbly EB1 clicky.


First I heard the Z68 tailcap fits the EB1?


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Yourfun2 said:


> First I heard the Z68 tailcap fits the EB1?



Thanks for catching my typo! I've corrected it.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Answer guys. Does the tactical EB1 use a twisty where twisting it brings up low and twisting further brings up high?

Bill


----------



## Robin24k

Yes, that is correct.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Robin24k said:


> Yes, that is correct.



Then this is really the LX1 that every one wanted, and could never expect LX2 output in a CR123 size, never mind which LED is used. We must be real and know the limitations of the primary Cr123 cell. 1+amps draw is totally pushing the cell. Regulation pushing the cell upwards to 2A's is not good and causes too much heat build up, and decreased, so no flat runtime. 

Bill


----------



## pjandyho

Bullzeyebill said:


> Answer guys. Does the tactical EB1 use a twisty where twisting it brings up low and twisting further brings up high?
> 
> Bill





Robin24k said:


> Yes, that is correct.


If that is the case, the tactical version and clicky version should both use a different head shouldn't it? I believe the clicky comes on in high on first activation and low on second, just like the E1B?


----------



## TMCGLASSON36

I called SF with that very ? and they said the heads are both the same. The tailswitch is different.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## pjandyho

TMCGLASSON36 said:


> I called SF with that very ? and they said the heads are both the same. The tailswitch is different.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Not that I don't believe your words but SF customer service are almost always clueless about their own products. That is my experience with them over the many years of using so many SF products. I am not too sure if I trust what they say.


----------



## Robin24k

I've swapped the heads between my lights, and they are interchangeable.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

pjandyho said:


> If that is the case, the tactical version and clicky version should both use a different head shouldn't it? I believe the clicky comes on in high on first activation and low on second, just like the E1B?



The head must somehow detect the resistance/voltage drop in the tailcap of the twisty and toggle to (hopefully regulated) low mode. Presumably that is one of the functions of the complex microcontroller circuitry in the head.

The EB1 doesn't strobe properly and has several defects uncovered by Robin24k and others:



Robin24k said:


> I've identified several operational issues with the EB1, which will be addressed by a firmware update. I've sent mine back to receive the updated firmware, and I'm still waiting for a response on the specifics, as well as if this will affect availability.



Robin24k appears to be witholding publication of his highly anticipated EB1 online review pending correction of the flaws in this 'not quite ready for primetime' light.

I contacted SF customer service again a few days ago and they still have no knowledge of a firmware update. Maybe it will be quietly slipstreamed into future production.



pjandyho said:


> ...SF customer service are almost always clueless about their own products. That is my experience with them over the many years of using so many SF products. I am not too sure if I trust what they say.



I don't want to bug them but has anyone else received feedback on the EB1 firmware update that Robin24k has referenced?


----------



## 270winchester

Bullzeyebill said:


> Then this is really the LX1 that every one wanted,



Well, the LX1 held some potential of having better knurling and ergonomics that the L1 Cree became known for, or at least being a shortened version of the LX2. I don't know about others but I was kind of hoping for more of an L1 Cree with a hgiheroutput dummy head rather than switching to a new platform that shares no body and tailcap with any other Surefire.

But the price point meant they had to cut cost somewhere. *shrug*




> and could never expect LX2 output in a CR123 size, never mind which LED is used. We must be real and know the limitations of the primary Cr123 cell. 1+amps draw is totally pushing the cell. Regulation pushing the cell upwards to 2A's is not good and causes too much heat build up, and decreased, so no flat runtime.
> 
> Bill



given the current limitations the results are pretty good. Not ideal but I agree, we have to be realistic.


----------



## pjandyho

Robin24k said:


> I've swapped the heads between my lights, and they are interchangeable.


Well then, I stand corrected. Thanks for the info.


----------



## John_Galt

Has anyone cracked th e head on these to see how the led is mounted, and also the optic? I assume its the same screw mounted pcb and retaining ring combo as surefires other lights but id like to know.

Also, if someone swaps in an xpg2 please post some lux measurements.


----------



## jamesmtl514

I've put the EB1 head on my E1B. Looks good, but not balanced.


----------



## 270winchester

John_Galt said:


> So we see from the head shots that this light is kost definitely using the xpe as opposed to the newer more efficient xpe2. Several modders have made posts showing that swapping from the xpG to the xpg2 yieleds about a 30% average increase in lux. I wonder what lux numbers would look like with a swap to xpe2. At the very least this would give the user a choice of tint.
> 
> If some courageous dog is willing to crack theirs open and post some numbers with both xpe2 and g2 id be most appreciative.






John_Galt said:


> I for one am excited about he new head/optic design. I see this as an excellent cadidate for modder fodder. Scott (milkyspit) has been doing excellent mods in surefires using the xp series leds for a long time now. I love my expurgator, in fact. But he has been using carclo optics and holders to replace the stock optics, which I can vouch for, do not focus nearly at all with xp series leds. So for those of uswho seek. Excellent throw from his mods, the new bezel and optic should allow easier modifications.
> 
> Id love to get my hands on just an eb1 head. Sent to scott for his excellent acorn driver and a neutralish xpg. Throw it on my e2l body or even my single cell fb1 with a 16340 and go to town.







John_Galt said:


> Has anyone cracked th e head on these to see how the led is mounted, and also the optic? I assume its the same screw mounted pcb and retaining ring combo as surefires other lights but id like to know.
> 
> Also, if someone swaps in an xpg2 please post some lux measurements.




These lights seem to be widely available at the moment. Rather than asking others to crack open theirs(which they might even plan on using in stock form), since you have had some pretty good ideas, why don't you get one and send it to Milkyspit?

The EB1 optic is an excellent optic, much better than the E1B(better than all three E1B heads I have), I'm sure you can get great results.


----------



## tonywalker23

I know this sounds crazy but would anyone be willing to part with an empty eb1 box?


While I'm a fanatic about lights my wife thinks otherwise. All she's heard from me is how great the eb1 is. I told her I was going to buy her an eb1 so she could have a good light to carry. Obviously she opposes. 


Anyways, I'm going to give her a gift card to a crafts store for valentines but thought it'd be funny to put the card in an eb1 box. Anyone care to help me out?


----------



## N/Apower

brianna said:


> My disappointment is because the regulation is almost as bad as a old fashioned D cell incandescent flashlight. Of course the D light has no regulation. The old E1b had excellent regulation and started me on this hobby. I thought the flat regulation was the premium I was paying for. I see no reason to own a expensive light with little to no regulation. Might as well go to Walmart and purchase a cheap light. You may even get better regulation. The quest for best is how I found this web site. I am perplexed such knowledgable people would even consider this light worthy to own.


you are paying for military grade electronic hardware that can handle muzzle concussion, being dropped, etc, and the only CoC moulded TIR available, when you buy a Surefire like the eb1, e2dl, etc.
This is why I buy surefire weapon lights. Further, that TIR throws like no other while still providing enough spill for most needs. My m600c outthrows any 6p drop in I have pitted it against up to about 600 Lumens with a lop reflector, or 400 or so with a smooth one.


----------



## Brian1911

I have seen there is an issue with the light having a flash going between high and low. I want to buy an eb1 but am worried that I will get a light that hasnt been fixed. Any info on this or where I might buy this light that wont have old stock?

In terms of regulation it has been beat to death but I simply want to ask if its an issue or not. I love everything else about this light and mostly the tail cap function. My HDS is nice but it keeps getting bumped on in my pocket and their pocket clips suck or are non existent for the rotary. This eb1 seems it will address most the issues I have but there are some positives and negatives. The surefire low function seems so low its not good for much practical use and if I am using the light to work on something keeping it on high is too much. I wish there were a Med mode or something.


----------



## Robin24k

SureFire is still looking into the issues, and my EB1's are with their engineering team.

In practical use, regulation shouldn't be an issue. Not only is the step-down difficult to perceive, but most people do not operate flashlights for longer than 5-10 minutes at a time, so it really isn't that big of a deal.


----------



## tsl

Brian1911 said:


> The surefire low function seems so low its not good for much practical use and if I am using the light to work on something keeping it on high is too much. I wish there were a Med mode or something.



The 5 lumen low is incredibly useful in a dark environment. Some would say that it is too bright.

I have the E2L, and the 3 lumen low does fine for anything up close and short distances. Remember that these lights have the TIR optic, so the low reaches out further than a light with a reflector.


----------



## brianna

Robin24k said:


> SureFire is still looking into the issues, and my EB1's are with their engineering team
> .



I hear a few members of the engineering team are not very pleased with the regulation. I also hear that a new LED is going to be used along with the fix. I was wondering if you might've heard something about this?


----------



## Coup de Grace

No flashes observed with my EB1. Haven't seen any drastic drop in the last few days of owning this light. I've had it on for about a total of 10 min.


----------



## Brian1911

If I do decide on the eb1 looks like its best to wait a bit for them to work out the kinks. Sounds to me like an updated version will be out soon. I will have to ask the Surefire guys at the USPSA match. I see a few of them quite often there.


----------



## tonywalker23

Let us know what they say.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Earlier I wrote:



Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> I've looked inside the head of my EB1 and the electronics are indeed more complex than other small lights from the aspect of parts count and circuit board area. There is a Microchip Technology F24K22 microcontroller with 16K of flash memory as I noted on another thread here. We've literally landed on the moon with less computing power.
> 
> The SF 2012 catalog released about a year ago shows the 'programmable' icon by the EB1 but the product box doesn't. [the 2013 SF 'brochure' doesn't have the icon or mention the 'dongle' - Vox] If the EB1 is indeed programmable through light shining on the emitter as some of the SF ad copy implies on page 29 of the 2012 catalog, does this mean that the light has some click sequence to put it in program mode?



http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...n-Flashlight&p=4089138&viewfull=1#post4089138

Looks like maybe it does indeed have a click sequence for programmability from this post today on another CPF thread:



MatthewSB said:


> Surefire called, I spoke with a very knowledgable guy, or at least he seemed that way to me.
> 
> ...The flickering is a design feature that surefire incorporated for the light to be 'programmable' in the future. Again, I know people here complain about this all the time, but what reason would you ever be clicking your light on and off more than 3 times?



Are there click 'Easter Eggs' to be found in the new SF lights? Was this 'future' feature later abandoned to cut costs due to SF's reportedly declining fortunes?

Anyone else heard more about this? Several of the usual SF 'insiders' here on CPF seem to suddenly no longer post.


----------



## MatthewSB

> Looks like maybe it does indeed have a click sequence for programmability from this post today on another CPF thread:



All it took was a phone call.


----------



## brianna

N/Apower said:


> you are paying for military grade electronic hardware that can handle muzzle concussion, being dropped, etc, and the only CoC moulded TIR available, when you buy a Surefire like the eb1, e2dl, etc.
> This is why I buy surefire weapon lights. Further, that TIR throws like no other while still providing enough spill for most needs. My m600c outthrows any 6p drop in I have pitted it against up to about 600 Lumens with a lop reflector, or 400 or so with a smooth one.


I don't even know why you brought this up? The E1B has excellent regulation. So does the e2dl.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

MatthewSB said:


> All it took was a phone call.



And, apparently, the right person on the other end at SF.

Thanks for sharing the SF click information Matthew!


----------



## MatthewSB

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> And, apparently, the right person on the other end at SF.
> 
> Thanks for sharing the SF click information Matthew!



I guess that they probably have a small army of phone operators, and most of them probably aren't passionate about flashlights like most of the collectors here.


----------



## leon2245

Brian1911 said:


> I have seen there is an issue with the light having a flash going between high and low. I want to buy an eb1 but am worried that I will get a light that hasnt been fixed. Any info on this or where I might buy this light that wont have old stock?
> 
> *In terms of regulation it has been beat to death but I simply want to ask if its an issue or not. *I love everything else about this light and mostly the tail cap function. My HDS is nice but it keeps getting bumped on in my pocket and their pocket clips suck or are non existent for the rotary. This eb1 seems it will address most the issues I have but there are some positives and negatives. The surefire low function seems so low its not good for much practical use and if I am using the light to work on something keeping it on high is too much. I wish there were a Med mode or something.



Not really, it's purely personal preference, since neither an even decline nor flat regulation is inherently better or worse. Personally I prefer flat, but there are advantages to each, especially with this model in particular & its intended purpose.

Yeah accidental pocket activation is no fun, & neither is the additional step of locking it out & back in again every time you use it. Why if clickies, they must be fully shrouded for me.


----------



## MatthewSB

Brian1911 said:


> In terms of regulation it has been beat to death but I simply want to ask if its an issue or not.



I'm not even sure if regulation, to the degree some people want to see, is an option when getting 200 lumens out of 1 battery.

It'll be interesting to see if the LX2 Ultra, with 500 lumen high mode, has the same "problem" with regulation.


----------



## brianna

MatthewSB I agree 200 lm on a single cell at this time is probably just too much to have decent regulation. The Fury does have fairly nice regulation at 500 lumens. So the regulation of the Lx2 Ultra should be about the same. It will be even better if they use a more current LED.


----------



## ThumperACC

MatthewSB said:


> I'm not even sure if regulation, to the degree some people want to see, is an option when getting 200 lumens out of 1 battery.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see if the LX2 Ultra, with 500 lumen high mode, has the same "problem" with regulation.



Well, my Jetbeam RRT-01 on a single CR123 puts out 200 lumens, well regulated for about an hour. It's an XM-L light so it can do that because 200 lumens is in the sweet spot for the LED output curve. That's the good news.

The bad news is this. I ran mine like this for the better part of an hour just to see. I observed the following while letting it tailstand for the 50 minutes or so:
- Initially, great
- I needed to cool it down every 10+ minutes or so by holding it in my hand
- The time between needed coolings (with my hand) got shorter and shorter until I could no longer cool it with my hand 
- At this point it got hotter and hotter to the point that I shut it off to avoid damaging something.

- And here is the real problem...I took the (now quite depleted) battery out and almost burnt myself. It was so hot I was concerned it might vent on me.

So this is the price for perfect regulation at 200 lumens on a single CR123. As the voltage of the battery drops, the current drawn from it must rise to keep the output flat (or regulated). This SERIOUSLY overheats the battery. Note that this an XM-L, which is way more efficient than what is in the EB1.

Give this, I understand and appreciate that Surefire has chosen to not place a bomb in my hand by overheating the battery in the name of regulation. They've made the correct tradeoff in my mind (assuming they want to put out 200lm).

Even the vaunted HDS, with its near perfect regulation, only puts out a constant 140lm (200lm burst followed by a step down to 140lm after 40 seconds) for its rated 1+ hours of perfect regulation. Henry knows the battery just can't take it. You can disable burst, in which case it will stay at 200lm but it will only do that for ~40 minutes instead of the typical 75 minutes at 140lm.

A CR123 just cannot supply the energy required to generate 200lm for an hour.

ThumperACC


----------



## brianna

The voltage of a lithium battery stays constant for about 90% of its life. Heavy a drain of any battery is going to cause it to become very hot. The flashlight is supposed to be held in your hand for constant cooling. Any light with that amount of current draw is going to be very hot if you just leave it alone on a table. Even the surefire fury gets very hot on high.


----------



## ThumperACC

brianna said:


> The voltage of a lithium battery stays constant for about 90% of its life...



If the above were true (universally true without respect to how much current is being drawn from the battery) then the EB1 would have nearly flat output for about 90% of its runtime. As we've seen, it does not.


----------



## brianna

I said the voltage stays the same for 90% not the current being supplied from the battery. 
Hence the poor regulation.


----------



## Robin24k

brianna said:


> I said the voltage stays the same for 90% not the current being supplied from the battery.


Consistent voltage for 90% of the discharge cycle would be exaggerated. Even for a low current draw (ie. 30mA), voltage is only consistent for 50% before linearly decreasing.

With ~1200mA draw, the voltage curve starts to look very similar to the R1's output curve (which is only a little flatter than the EB1's).


----------



## ThumperACC

brianna said:


> I said the voltage stays the same for 90% not the current being supplied from the battery.
> Hence the poor regulation.



Keep in mind that batteries do not store charge per se, they generate charge "on demand". A battery is an electro-chemical reaction vessel where said reaction is self limiting with the limiting factor being the available charge. If the available charge is sufficient, the reaction stops. 

The voltage difference at the battery's terminals is a reflection of the amount of charge (in the battery, this is the surface charge) hanging around waiting to do work (in the case of our discussion, the work would be generating light).

The current supplied by the battery is the movement, of this charge, out of the battery.

When battery supplies current, its voltage drops enough to allow the electrochemical reaction to resume, which in turn replenishes the charge drained off in the form of current. As long as the electrochemical reaction can produce charge faster than the charge is depleted by supplying current (remember current is moving charge) then the battery's voltage will not drop. Two things get in the way of the above balance.
1. The battery's voltage can sag from losses induced by high current. A voltage drop across the electrodes due to internal resistance. This voltage drop/loss due to resistance also causes heat (charge is converted to heat due to the resistance).
2. As the reactants (Lithium and other chemicals in the battery) are used up, there is less of them around to react and produce charge. Once the electrochemical reaction can no longer produce charge faster than it is depleted by supplying current, the battery's voltage will begin a steady decline.


----------



## tonywalker23

Maybe I should have paid attention in science class. Guess ill go back to looking at pictures of flashlights


----------



## brianna

Robin24k said:


> Consistent voltage for 90% of the discharge cycle would be exaggerated. Even for a low current draw (ie. 30mA), voltage is only consistent for 50% before linearly decreasing.
> 
> With ~1200mA draw, the voltage curve starts to look very similar to the R1's output curve (which is only a little flatter than the EB1's).



Thank you for correcting me I was misinformed.


----------



## Robin24k

You're welcome. Hopefully it has helped illustrate why flat regulation is not practical for the EB1. When the battery's voltage curve is already starting to look like that, it's difficult (inefficient) for the driver to maintain flat regulation.


----------



## brianna

200 lm for a single cell battery is just too much to ask. Nevermind the poor regulation I'm more worried about the safety of the battery. I think the output should be dropped to the point where you can have flat regulation and the battery doesn't feel like it was in a 400° oven. This will significantly heat up the flashlight and reduce the output anyways. This is why trying to keep up with the lumen war is a losing battle.


----------



## drew78

This has really opened my eyes to what a single cell 123 can do interms of output. I happened to pick up a Terralux TT-1 recently. This is a single 123 cell light with a Cree gen 2 XP-G emitter that puts out 250 lumens for a bit over a hour. Pretty impressed so far with the light. I assume if I were to run it on high for an exteded period it would get pretty hot along with the battery as indicated above? There is no stepdown on it. Sorry for the drift.


----------



## N/Apower

brianna said:


> 200 lm for a single cell battery is just too much to ask. Nevermind the poor regulation I'm more worried about the safety of the battery. I think the output should be dropped to the point where you can have flat regulation and the battery doesn't feel like it was in a 400° oven. This will significantly heat up the flashlight and reduce the output anyways. This is why trying to keep up with the lumen war is a losing battle.



I guess my 280 OTF lumen M31 XP-G2 just didn't get the memo...


----------



## Flashlight Dave

A bit off topic and not sure if it has been mentioned before but I tried to take a tail measurement on the EB1 with a DMM and the light came on low. I have the tactical version. With the others such as the L1 and L2, LX2 completing the circuit always made the light come on high. It seems that the resistor in the tail triggers the head into high not low. It basically works in reverse.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

N/Apower said:


> I guess my 280 OTF lumen M31 XP-G2 just didn't get the memo...



According the the Malkoff website the M31 XP-G2 is pulling 1Amp. We can not compare the M31 with the EB1 until we have, at least, some tailcap current draw readings for the EB1. 900 posts in this thread and I can not find a current draw for the EB1. Without that information we are blowing smoke about why the EB1 does not have good regulation. The earlier testing of two Eneloops showing a flat runtime for around 70 minutes or so does indicate that a CR123 does not have the have the poop for the EB1's circuit/LED. The M31 appears to handle 1A draw from a CR123 well, though it too will drop off quicker than two Eneloops would. If I missed it, would someone post the current draw of an EB1. Thanks,

Bill


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Bullzeyebill said:


> According the the Malkoff website the M31 XP-G2 is pulling 1Amp. We can not compare the M31 with the EB1 until we have, at least, some tailcap current draw readings for the EB1. 900 posts in this thread and I can not find a current draw for the EB1. Without that information we are blowing smoke about why the EB1 does not have good regulation. The earlier testing of two Eneloops showing a flat runtime for around 70 minutes or so does indicate that a CR123 does not have the have the poop for the EB1's circuit/LED. The M31 appears to handle 1A draw from a CR123 well, though it too will drop off quicker than two Eneloops would. If I missed it, would someone post the current draw of an EB1. Thanks,
> 
> Bill



Whew, this thing is power thirsty on a CR123A. :huh: I read 1.72 amps initially on a meter with a 10 amp scale and standard leads. After about a minute the current on high mode drops to around 1.53 amps and the current wanders, presumably from the current regulation and the inability of the battery to keep up. On low mode I get a relatively steady 39 milliamps (.039 amp).

I used a new SF battery with a 2022 expiration date.

A late production SF E1B with a SF CR123A reads 650 milliamps (.65 amp) on high and 44 milliamps (.044 amp) on low.

Anybody else want to see what they get?

As Robin24k commented earlier, SF's choice of a less efficient legacy emitter results in reduced EB1 runtime and regulation:



Robin24k said:


> It's an XR-E in the E1B, right? Since SureFire didn't go with a more efficient LED, the EB1 will use more power than the E1B to produce 200 lumens. Increased power consumption will result in less runtime and regulation...


----------



## Robin24k

Flashlight Dave said:


> A bit off topic and not sure if it has been mentioned before but I tried to take a tail measurement on the EB1 with a DMM and the light came on low. I have the tactical version. With the others such as the L1 and L2, LX2 completing the circuit always made the light come on high. It seems that the resistor in the tail triggers the head into high not low. It basically works in reverse.


Your DMM's internal resistance is triggering the low mode. If you short the tailcap, it will operate in high mode (it wouldn't make any sense the other way around, there's going to be voltage drop across the resistor).


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Robin24k said:


> Your DMM's internal resistance is triggering the light to come on low. If you short the tailcap, it will operate in high mode (it wouldn't make any sense the other way around, there's going to be voltage drop across the resistor).



So, you somehow think the 1.72 amp draw is the EB1 low mode? Wow, I'd hate to see what it draws on high mode. 

You can toggle the EB1 modes with an ammeter on the tailcap, it works like a paperclip. Perhaps you have voltage and current confused. 

There is no resistor in the clicky EB1 tailcap, right?


----------



## Robin24k

No, that response wasn't directed at you (notice the quoted text). Your multimeter has a really low internal resistance for current measurements, so you don't have any problems measuring current for high output.

I have the same issue as Flashlight Dave, I can't get current readings on high. If the multimeter's internal resistance is too high, it will behave like a half press of the tactical tailcap and prevent you from toggling high output.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Robin24k said:


> No, that response wasn't directed at you (notice the quoted text). Your multimeter has a really low internal resistance for current measurements, so you don't have any problems measuring current for high output.
> 
> I have the same issue as Flashlight Dave, I can't get current readings on high. If the multimeter's internal resistance is too high, it will behave like a half press of the tactical tailcap and prevent you from toggling high output.



My apologies Robin, I didn't see that, I was the one that was confused! :bow:

However, your comment reminds me that the EB1 head can toggle modes by alternately presenting a low resistance in the clicky tailcap (paperclip mode shall we say) or by giving a low and high resistance with the tactical tailcap. Seems like earlier tailcap switched SF's all worked one way but not the other. The EB1 apparently does both methods of high-low switching with one head.


----------



## Robin24k

No worries...I replied to page 30 and realized that there was page 31 after I posted, so I guess that didn't help either...


----------



## Flashlight Dave

Robin24k said:


> Your DMM's internal resistance is triggering the low mode. If you short the tailcap, it will operate in high mode (it wouldn't make any sense the other way around, there's going to be voltage drop across the resistor).



Right you are. I tried it and it worked as you said. I guess no easy way to get a reading.


----------



## brianna

Has anybody thought to maybe call Surefire and ask them for a current draw reading? I would do it but I don't have time today.


----------



## Robin24k

brianna said:


> Has anybody thought to maybe call Surefire and ask them for a current draw reading? I would do it but I don't have time today.


I doubt it would be a productive use of your time...


----------



## 270winchester

N/Apower said:


> I guess my 280 OTF lumen M31 XP-G2 just didn't get the memo...



It is also note worthy that there hasn't been an integrated sphere reading of the EB1 yet. So we don't actually know how much it is putting out on a fresh cell.

Then again if there is a 280 lumen Malkoff with TIR I would be most happy to see. But the M31 is a moderate thrower.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

SF announced on Facebook a short time ago that the tan version of the EB1 is now shipping, it looks very nice in the photos.


----------



## MatthewSB

Another thing I haven't noticed in this thread - The frosty lense, I believe, makes the EB1T more floody and less focused than my E1B which has a clear lense. 

Shining both on the same wall, the E1B has a focused point in the middle, and dims outwards from there, while the EB1T has a large bright area with no particularly bright spot inside, with a dim flood outside of that.


----------



## mossyoak

So weve seen how the high level performs. has anyone done any testing of the low level? is it flat output for the 40 hours its spec'd at?


----------



## Robin24k

I don't see why it wouldn't be...


----------



## mossyoak

Just making sure... LOL the high in my opinion is more or less a nice "spotting" beam with the 95%+ of use being left the the low level, thanks to the tight throwy beam I rarely need the high.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

mossyoak said:


> So weve seen how the high level performs. has anyone done any testing of the low level? is it flat output for the 40 hours its spec'd at?



From another EB1 thread here:



ThumperACC said:


> I know some have asked if the EB1 is regulated on low.
> 
> Last night I ran my EB1T (running on a Titanium Innovations CR123, 1400mAh) down to the point that, on high, it was putting out ~5% of its original output on high when the battery was fresh. At this point the battery is pretty close to dead.
> 
> With this 'mostly dead' battery, the EB1T was putting out the same amount of light on low as it did, on low, when the battery was fresh.
> 
> So, while I cannot offer a runtime graph of the low output for 40 hours, I can tell you this:
> - On a fresh battery I measured ~3100lux in my light box
> - On a partially depleted battery (~20 minutes on high) it still put out ~3100lux in my light box
> - On a very depleted battery (high output @5%) it still put out ~3100lux in my light box
> 
> My conclusion is that the EB1 is very well regulated on low. :thumbsup:
> 
> ThumperACC



Also, on high ThumperACC got similar numbers to mine for the current draw on a fresh battery:



ThumperACC said:


> 193Klux at startup. 5 minutes on high, let it cool off. Turn it on high again, 193Klux at startup. It would drop by ~5-6% due to heatup over 5 minutes. I did the 5 minutes on high/cool off thing 3-4 times (pretty sure it was 4 but I don't remember exactly as it was over 4 days) and it was always 193K at startup and it would drop by 5-6% over 5 minutes due to heat.
> 
> Now, over those 4 days, the current draw went from 1500mA to around 2100mA required to produce those 193K lux. So, it would seem, as long as the battery can keep up, it is regulated on high.
> 
> Edited to add: If you do the math and believe that low is 5 lumens, that would seem to indicate that it puts out 300lm on high at startup.
> 
> ThumperACC


----------



## Robin24k

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> SF announced on Facebook a short time ago that the tan version of the EB1 is now shipping, it looks very nice in the photos.




​
I've got the same color pattern as the one pictured on SureFire's website (bezel and body are darker), and the finish is slightly roughened (whereas black is completely smooth). Overall, it looks sharp compared to all of the black lights on my desk. :thumbsup:


----------



## Robin24k

We've just posted our EB1 review. 

http://www.led-resource.com/2013/03/surefire-eb1-backup-review/


----------



## Agile54

TY Robin, a very thorough & well done review which mirrors my experiences thus far w/ my EB1.
As an aside I've been carrying it's predecessor for some 3-4 yrs., so they back each other up now, sorry fellas.

Your previous one re. the R1 has me eager to go hands on w/ my own which should be landing here any day now. Thx again for your time & effort w/ all these reviews, they are a good asset for CPF members.


----------



## Robin24k

Glad I could help.


----------



## Alexpag

I recently bought an EB1 (tactical switch). I'm quite impressed by the brightness on high output. The low output seems a bit of green in my eyes. The only problem I found was a preflash on low output about 30% of time like snareman95 reported in his review, but it doesn't bother me. Great light overall for EDC.


----------



## Robin24k

There is a slight pre-flash issue if you try to strobe momentary low. If you give it enough time between activations of momentary low, there won't be an issue. I think this arises from the fact that both models of the EB1 use the same head (it's trying to switch modes).


----------



## tonywalker23

Robin24k said:


> There is a slight pre-flash issue if you try to strobe momentary low. If you give it enough time between activations of momentary low, there won't be an issue. I think this arises from the fact that both models of the EB1 use the same head (it's trying to switch modes).



I'm sure the answer will be over my head but can you tell me what exactly has to go on with the tailcaps for the head to know to come on in high or low first (eb1c vs eb1t)? What kind of mod would it takes for an e2dl to behave like an eb1 (or e1l I guess would be a better example)


----------



## Robin24k

If the head senses sufficient resistance through the tailcap, it will default to low mode. I don't know the exact threshold, but for example, the internal resistance of my multimeter is sufficient for the light to switch to low mode (which means that I can't measure tailcap current on high).


----------



## Machete God

Thanks very much for the helpful review, Robin. 

A question (and I know you kinda answered this for me earlier, but I still cannot wrap my head around how it works): if you have the EB1T, and you press the switch fully two times in rapid succession, will the light come on in low mode, or high? Without one in my hands to try, I am reasoning that the electronics in the head will interpret the two quick presses as coming from a clicky tailcap (EB1C) and go to low mode wrongly, but I am keen to know if this is true in practice. Or does the head actually sense the split-second of lower, resistored voltage that occurs in the initial part of the press (I can't think of any other way the head electronics can differentiate between the type of tailcap installed on the light) and turn on in high?


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Using the clicky EB1, two quick clicks should bring you to the low mode. That is how all of the clicky SF's work, two clicks, slow or fast, will bring up the second level, in the EB1's case, low mode.

Bill


----------



## Machete God

The difference between the EB1 variants and other SF two-mode lights is that the other SF two-mode lights are either clicky (E1B, E2DL, 6PX PRO, etc.) or two-stage (A2, LX2, Kroma, etc.), while the EB1 variants can be BOTH clicky and two-stage just by swapping the tail-cap. The EB1C has a non-resistored, clicky tail-cap, so the head switches between high and low between on-off cycles. The EB1T, meanwhile, has the exact same head and a resistored tail-cap, which allows two-stage operation (from Robin's earlier explanation that if the EB1 head senses sufficiently resistored current it comes on in low). I am curious to know what happens with a quick double full-press on an EB1T, since this would be the equivalent to a double-click on a non-resistored clicky. 

Please forgive me if the answer is obvious and I am just being dense!


----------



## Alexpag

Machete God said:


> I am curious to know what happens with a quick double full-press on an EB1T, since this would be the equivalent to a double-click on a non-resistored clicky.



You have high mode.


----------



## Robin24k

Alexpag said:


> You have high mode.


That is correct. When you press the tailcap halfway, you have low output, so it would try to switch to high.


----------



## Machete God

Thank you for the answers, all.

So in essence, the resistored current from the half-press of the two-stage tail-cap (no matter how fleeting) is what tells the head that it's supposed to behave like an EB1T. Is this correct?


----------



## Robin24k

Yup.


----------



## Machete God

Thanks very much again for the confirmation, Robin. I need to get an EB1T (which I will always be able to convert to an "EB1C" by swapping the head to the body of my E1B).


----------



## computernut

I've had my EB1 for about a week and I'm loving it so far but I just noticed a slight buzzing noise coming from the head on high. I'm pretty sure I didn't notice this earlier so not sure if it just developed or not. Anyone else have this?


----------



## Flashlight Dave

computernut said:


> I've had my EB1 for about a week and I'm loving it so far but I just noticed a slight buzzing noise coming from the head on high. I'm pretty sure I didn't notice this earlier so not sure if it just developed or not. Anyone else have this?



This is normal. All the two stage tactical lights do that dating back to the L2 or before. I believe its the resistor in the tail. At least that seems to me the location of the sound. It happens when you push it through the stages. My EB1 does it too.


----------



## pjandyho

Flashlight Dave said:


> This is normal. All the two stage tactical lights do that dating back to the L2 or before. I believe its the resistor in the tail. At least that seems to me the location of the sound. It happens when you push it through the stages. My EB1 does it too.


My LX2 and L1 does that too but I have to say that they are so soft I have to place it to my ear to hear the inductor whine. Perfectly normal.


----------



## MatthewSB

My EB1T does not have the same electric whine, none whatsoever, as my LX2 does.

All LX2s that I've handled did this, but this is the first I've heard about the same coming from the EB1.


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## Robin24k

All of the EB1's that I've handled (2 x EB1T and 2 x EB1C) have the whine, which comes from the head. Some people may be more sensitive to it than others, but the whine isn't always the same loudness.


----------



## computernut

Thanks guys, I'm one of those sensitive people, my TK20 and Panasonic Plasma drive me nuts if it's quiet. My EB1 isn't as high-pitched as the TK20, more of a buzz rather than a whine. All of my Surefires are dead quiet except for my L2 and A2's. If I had the only EB1 that buzzed I'd be worried, thanks!


----------



## ThumperACC

computernut said:


> I've had my EB1 for about a week and I'm loving it so far but I just noticed a slight buzzing noise coming from the head on high. I'm pretty sure I didn't notice this earlier so not sure if it just developed or not. Anyone else have this?




Not here, mine appears to be dead silent.


----------



## hatman

Robin24k said:


> We've just posted our EB1 review.
> 
> http://www.led-resource.com/2013/03/surefire-eb1-backup-review/



Well done and thanks!

Question: Since the light can't go to high output when Surefire's phosphate-lithium batteries are freshly charged, why don't you consider that a negative? Keeping two batteries in rotation may be a solution but I really wonder why anyone would design a light to do this.

Thanks.


----------



## Robin24k

Good point, not sure why I had forgotten to add that to the negatives section.

I think the reason may be similar to the rechargeables, which have two zones of operation: buck/boost for lithium-ion, and boost for lithium primary. Since the voltage of lithium-phosphate is somewhere in the middle of these two ranges, fully charged lithium-phosphate rechargeables produce undefined behavior.

I recall that somebody used a 3.7V lithium-ion in the EB1 and it worked fine, so I think the EB1 may share some part of its electronics with the rechargeables, which brought along the lithium-phosphate incompatibility problems.


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## Lucky Duck

New Avatar Robin?


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## Robin24k

Lucky Duck said:


> New Avatar Robin?


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## Rob Babcock

Wow, this is certainly eye opening! I have two E1B's right now; the last was purchased less than two months ago. I wanted it badly because it was rated as brighter than my older E1B. So of course, I must have been the last guy to get the 110 lumen version before they bumped it up to 200!:shakehead It annoyed me that my "new" light was "obsolete" now but I resolved to suck it up and get the EB1- I'm glad I read this thread first! If I understand it right, the new EB1 is about 1/2" longer than the older E1B, is that the case?

The reason I still really would like to try the new one is that it has springs on both ends of the battery- The Great White Buffalo!:huh: Presumably it would be suitable for weapon use, and just generally be a bit more robust. I can live without the extra lumens as my E1Bs are plenty bright for a 1 x CR123A light. When I need a flamethrower I have a JETBeam BC25.

FWIW, my newest E1B doesn't really seem noticeably brighter than my 2+ year old one. The only real difference I can detect is that the older one is a little bit warmer while the newer one is biased a tad towards the blue-ish end. Still pretty white but not quite as white as the old one. Both of them are excellent.


----------



## tsl

Rob Babcock said:


> If I understand it right, the new EB1 is about 1/2" longer than the older E1B, is that the case?



Yes.



Rob Babcock said:


> FWIW, my newest E1B doesn't really seem noticeably brighter than my 2+ year old one. The only real difference I can detect is that the older one is a little bit warmer while the newer one is biased a tad towards the blue-ish end. Still pretty white but not quite as white as the old one. Both of them are excellent.



That's not unusual. My understanding is that Surefire's stated lumens in the past were very conservative (i.e., lower than actual) and they started publishing more representative numbers.


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## Rob Babcock

Ah, that's what I thought. I've owned Surefires since back before they sold LED ones, and they always seemed conservatively rated.

As much as the new EB1 is interesting, I wish I could get a plain old E1B with springs on both ends of the battery (like the new one) but with the old emitter, regulation and run time.


----------



## 270winchester

Rob Babcock said:


> As much as the new EB1 is interesting, I wish I could get a plain old E1B with springs on both ends of the battery (like the new one) but with the old emitter, regulation and run time.



The EB1 head blows the E1B out of the water in terms of output, beam quality, and tint. In actual use, the "regulation" issue is moot. It makes a great online conversation topic but at the end of the day most, if not almost all, actual users who have provided feedback here seem to think the output curve is not an issue. On top of that it has fairly generous spill to address the grievances of the past TIRs(KL1s, KL3s, E2DLs, etc)

If you really run the light on high for extended period that often, then use 3v LiFepo RCR123s for flat output and cheaper running cost. 

I have three E1Bs and they haven't seen much use since I got my EB1C.


----------



## MatthewSB

Rob Babcock said:


> Wow, this is certainly eye opening! I have two E1B's right now; the last was purchased less than two months ago. I wanted it badly because it was rated as brighter than my older E1B. So of course, I must have been the last guy to get the 110 lumen version before they bumped it up to 200!:shakehead It annoyed me that my "new" light was "obsolete" now but I resolved to suck it up and get the EB1- I'm glad I read this thread first! If I understand it right, the new EB1 is about 1/2" longer than the older E1B, is that the case?



The E1B is far from obsolete. The batteries last long enough, even on high mode, that I'm not afraid to use it with disposable CR123 batteries, and the amount of light provided is 'just right' being bright enough but not too bright. I love my EB1T, but if I want a clicky light I'd rather use the one that cost 2/3 as much and is plenty bright.

I just bought a spare E1B to have, in case I lose the one that I use, now that they are discontinued.


----------



## leon2245

ThumperACC said:


> Not here, mine appears to be dead silent.



Mine too. & i thought i had good hearing, I'm always hearing high pitched whines in the office no one else can- maybe a sign of BAD hearing, just ringing in my ears.

Oh well, maybe a silver lining to bad hearing, can't hear plasmas buzz or flashlights whine


----------



## 2000xlt

I probably should just get one, I always fall back to my wearing E1B/E2D TC...


----------



## Rob Babcock

Well, it's not literally "obsolete" but to a flashlight junkie, once they make a brighter one you gotta get it!:devil:


----------



## Rob Babcock

270winchester said:


> The EB1 head blows the E1B out of the water in terms of output, beam quality, and tint. In actual use, the "regulation" issue is moot. It makes a great online conversation topic but at the end of the day most, if not almost all, actual users who have provided feedback here seem to think the output curve is not an issue. On top of that it has fairly generous spill to address the grievances of the past TIRs(KL1s, KL3s, E2DLs, etc).



Interesting. I consider the E1B to be basically perfect (for my uses) when it comes to tint and throw. I greatly prefer a more focused spot and the E1B has the ideal ratio of spot to spill for me. Is the EB1 whiter? I guess that would be fine but my particular E1B has the best color of any of my 20 or so LED lights. The main thing I'm a bit leery about with the EB1, aside from the reported technical problems, is the size. I really love the E1B because it's so small.

Still, I imagine an EB1 is in my future! Gotta go with the new as my LINUX instructor used to say.


----------



## ThumperACC

Robin24k said:


> ... I recall that somebody used a 3.7V lithium-ion in the EB1 and it worked fine, so I think the EB1 may share some part of its electronics with the rechargeables, which brought along the lithium-phosphate incompatibility problems.



When I read this I was confused, because I remembered someone trying a protected RCR123 and it would just flash and go to low. Well, based on what you said here, I went and tried my AW IMR1640s and lo and behold, it works. :thumbsup:

Really glad you mentioned this Robin24k, I prefer to run rechargeables so I can be topped off when I want instead of having a partially depleted 123 in there. Oh and I get 25 minutes of dead flat high runtime on the IMR16340 vs 12 minutes on the CR123 (both with a fan cooling the light).

ThumperACC


----------



## Stainz

My ancient E1B was about to get a new sibling - a silver EB1C. The problems and the general question of the increased light level over my early one were moot - until I read the last three pages here. I wanted the newest greatest - and shipped from a familiar company for ~$150, which is nearly twice what I paid a local gunstore for my early E1b - they gave me their LEO/Mil discount - and I'm a retired teacher (ex-USN). I improved it when I replaced my E2DL's tailcap after it fell on the sidewalk it's first day of use, marring those crenelations. Evened up and some black paint - and my E1b became a tail-sitter. Surefire sent my E2DL a replacement - gratis! The E1b has been my EDC ever since, even though it's looking a bit long in the tooth - lots of pocket wear. A new sibling seemed 'right'. Sadly, the early problems made me recall my early 6PX Pro. Despite S-F sending me a replacement tailcap, it still will go from low to high on a bump. My early Fury is perfect. I had the EB1C in my cart - was about to PayPal it - then I read the last three pages here. The real question - do I need the 'extra' light in my EDC? Not really is the best answer - especially since I have the bedside stowed Fury. A quandry.

Of course, I did find myself reasoning that the silver EB1C would likely be the latest variant... with all of the improvements... yeah, right. Someone help me off this fence!!

Stainz


----------



## fresh eddie fresh

Stainz said:


> My ancient E1B was about to get a new sibling - a silver EB1C. The problems and the general question of the increased light level over my early one were moot - until I read the last three pages here. I wanted the newest greatest - and shipped from a familiar company for ~$150, which is nearly twice what I paid a local gunstore for my early E1b - they gave me their LEO/Mil discount - and I'm a retired teacher (ex-USN). I improved it when I replaced my E2DL's tailcap after it fell on the sidewalk it's first day of use, marring those crenelations. Evened up and some black paint - and my E1b became a tail-sitter. Surefire sent my E2DL a replacement - gratis! The E1b has been my EDC ever since, even though it's looking a bit long in the tooth - lots of pocket wear. A new sibling seemed 'right'. Sadly, the early problems made me recall my early 6PX Pro. Despite S-F sending me a replacement tailcap, it still will go from low to high on a bump. My early Fury is perfect. I had the EB1C in my cart - was about to PayPal it - then I read the last three pages here. The real question - do I need the 'extra' light in my EDC? Not really is the best answer - especially since I have the bedside stowed Fury. A quandry.
> 
> Of course, I did find myself reasoning that the silver EB1C would likely be the latest variant... with all of the improvements... yeah, right. Someone help me off this fence!!
> 
> Stainz



I can't speak for the EB1, since I do not have one (yet,) but silver is a good choice for carrying every day. I have a silver E1B, and you can hardly notice the worn off spots.


----------



## N/Apower

Okay, so Surefire has finally weaponized this after letting everyone work out the kinks with the hand-held version. I have jumped ship on my M300A for my SBR, and will be buying the M300B as soon as it hits dealers here shortly (currently for sale only on SF's website, and listed "out of stock" on others).

My questions...

Anyone have any REAL beamshots? I have seen a whopping 2-3 outdoor, and a dozen at a wall a few feet away. I'd like some outdoor, I have searched and can only find one of a shed 75' away, and one of a bush.

How does this compare to the E2DL in beam pattern (is it wider, narrower, more spill, less spill, throw further, throw less)?

Thanks!


----------



## MatthewSB

N/Apower said:


> Okay, so Surefire has finally weaponized this after letting everyone work out the kinks with the hand-held version. I have jumped ship on my M300A for my SBR, and will be buying the M300B as soon as it hits dealers here shortly (currently for sale only on SF's website, and listed "out of stock" on others).
> 
> My questions...
> 
> Anyone have any REAL beamshots? I have seen a whopping 2-3 outdoor, and a dozen at a wall a few feet away. I'd like some outdoor, I have searched and can only find one of a shed 75' away, and one of a bush.
> 
> How does this compare to the E2DL in beam pattern (is it wider, narrower, more spill, less spill, throw further, throw less)?
> 
> Thanks!



The EB1 has a 'frosty' lense so instead of a laser beam like focus point it has a larger area that is very intense. Not much spill to speak of, but it works.

I really love mine, and have officially retired my E1B in favor of the EB1T.


----------



## X44

is it possible to increase the output of the surefire E1B backup 110 lumen version to 200+ lumens? i know it only runs on 1 123A battery so can it be done?



Thanks


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

X44 said:


> is it possible to increase the output of the surefire E1B backup 110 lumen version to 200+ lumens? i know it only runs on 1 123A battery so can it be done?
> 
> Thanks



The late model Surefire L1's have the same XR-E emitter as the E1B, if you put an RCR123A (a rechargeable CR123A) in, it will indeed put out 200 lumens or more. This trick doesn't seem to work on the E1B in my experience.


----------



## 270winchester

Rob Babcock said:


> Interesting. I consider the E1B to be basically perfect (for my uses) when it comes to tint and throw. I greatly prefer a more focused spot and the E1B has the ideal ratio of spot to spill for me. Is the EB1 whiter? I guess that would be fine but my particular E1B has the best color of any of my 20 or so LED lights. The main thing I'm a bit leery about with the EB1, aside from the reported technical problems, is the size. I really love the E1B because it's so small.
> 
> Still, I imagine an EB1 is in my future! Gotta go with the new as my LINUX instructor used to say.



I'm not the best judge of tint, what I can tell you is that the particular EB1 I have has a much warmer white on high than my best E1B.

The EB1 is a bit bigger, however you can use the E1B body and tailcap to compensate for it.


----------



## X44

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> The late model Surefire L1's have the same XR-E emitter as the E1B, if you put an RCR123A (a rechargeable CR123A) in, it will indeed put out 200 lumens or more. This trick doesn't seem to work on the E1B in my experience.


thanks ill look into the Surefire L1.
i really want to get surefire E1B because of its size. its perfect EDC light. the reverse clip on it is nice so the head doesn't poke out of back pocket.
is there anything else that can be done to increase output with any version of the light?


if need be is there an alliterative company that i can go with that fits that criteria

Thanks

ps im still learning


----------



## chnzwh

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> The late model Surefire L1's have the same XR-E emitter as the E1B, if you put an RCR123A (a rechargeable CR123A) in, it will indeed put out 200 lumens or more. This trick doesn't seem to work on the E1B in my experience.



I fried the electronics in my Gen 6 L1 using RCR123A for an extend period of time (more than 30 minutes continuously). So I don't think it's a reliable option.


----------



## Agile54

*Re: EB1 3rd TC Question*

Candidly my search-fu is weak but Robin mentioned here a 3rd TC option coming for the EB1, also saw it in his review. Now I cannot find it in the review nor in this thread, can anyone confirm if this 3rd TC is going forward as I want to buy another EB1 w/ that TC.


----------



## Robin24k

*Re: EB1 3rd TC Question*

There is currently no scheduled release date for the click-type switch without shroud, so I had removed it from my review. I think it will be coming, but not for at least several months.


----------



## Maxbelg

*Re: EB1 3rd TC Question*

I finally got myself an EB1 tactical despite my initial decision not to. Here are my thoughts:

1. It will never be an EDC light for me. I don't want a throwy beam on low for general usage and most certainly not with a green tint :sick2:! On high the tint is nice and white.
2. My sample doesn't seem to run on LiFePO4 unless they are half run-down already, so it is a primary only light for me.
3. I don't mind the "poor regulation" as much as I thought I would. It is an amazing thrower and its LUX stays considerably more than my E1B (and even L1 on RCRs) until the battery is dead.
4. The beamshape is great! It has a perfectly round hotspot with nice even spill. There is no black ring around the hotspot and no rings either like with my E1B and L1 (they are quite faint).

So this seems like a great BACKUP light for when you might need some serious throw. Then the runtime curve is of no consequence because when you need it the battery will be fresh. My previous Backup E1B was more than a backup light and I EDC'd it for a long time. This light will truly be carried as backup only. EDC will remain a HDS (currently the 200 Rotary).

*To summarize: Buy this light if you want a bomb-proof pocket-thrower running off a single primary but don't buy it to replace your HDS or other great EDC light!**

Just tried this again with LiFePO4 but no go and then I popped in an IMR 16340 and it worked! Is this safe??? The levels seem the same as with a primary. I haven't run it continuously more than 5 minutes but it doesn't get warmer than with a primary. Strange that it doesn't work with LiFePO4 and does with an IMR 4,2V. Is this light maybe designed with these cells in mind? Then it could possibly register the difference in primaries and IMR 16340s based on their voltage (like HDS) and that would explain why it didn't work with 3,3V LiFePO4. Maybe its high stops working when the IMRs have run down to 3,3V? I'll bet the runtime curve will look better with IMRs compared to primaries. Maybe I'm getting all excited for nothing. Somebody else please chime in.

I found this post about RCR in the EB1 but it wasn't an IMR. I measured the tailcap current with the IMR 16340 and it draws 2000mAh. Any ideas whether this is safe to run in the EB1?

EDIT: I've been thinking about this strange behavior a bit more: Could it be that the same head will not only run off both the clicky and tactical switches but also run off either 1 or 2 cell bodies? This would explain the behavior with the 4,2V IMR and also explain the complicated electronics in the head. Is there a EB2 coming with the same head? Somebody knowledgeable needs to chime in here please.

Bullzeyebill has commented on this matter here. He is obviously very knowledgeable and thinks it is probably not safe. I have however continued using it and have not encountered problems yet.*


----------



## ThumperACC

*Re: EB1 3rd TC Question*

I too have been running my EB1T on IMR16340s. Very good performance, same output as primaries but better, flatter output on high. On primaries, I get about 10-12 minutes of flat output before declining output. On the IMRs I get about 25+ minutes of flat output (measured with a light meter in a light box) but the output falls off pretty fast over the next 10 minutes after that.

All in all very happy with this light on IMRs. No extra heat running on IMRs (compared with primaries).

Also, for what it is worth, regarding the 2000mA that Max measured with the IMR, I've measured as much as 2400mA from a partially depleted primary. Primary current started around 1500mA, rose to around 2400mA and then fell as the cell became more depleted.

ThumperACC


----------



## Maxbelg

*Re: EB1 3rd TC Question*



ThumperACC said:


> I too have been running my EB1T on IMR16340s......



Wow thanks for this info. I'm following this thread but this info belongs there as well! I see you posted a summary over there, thanks.


----------



## lapd.erik

Is the Cree Xpe a better led than the xpg?


----------



## Flashlight Dave

The XP-E is less efficient than the XP-G but it has more throw to it hence the reason Surefire decided to use it.


----------



## mossyoak

lapd.erik said:


> Is the Cree Xpe a better led than the xpg?



Define "better"

It's not quite as efficient in total output of light, the XPE emitter is smaller than the XPG and more intense. So for the eb1 it is the superior choice. A XPG led in the eb1 would be slightly brighter. But wouldnt throw as far.


----------



## lapd.erik

Interesting. Thanks


----------



## chnzwh

Just wondering, can an E1B head be fitted on an EB1 body and function normally? I'm trying to combine the excellent regulation of E1B with the tactical tailcap of EB1.


----------



## mossyoak

Nope. The UI is in the head of the eb1


----------



## N/Apower

Well, the M300B weapon-light finally dropped. I bought one immediately. It's the same scenario as the E1B and M300A, basically. A single-mode with a body-keyed mount. All I can say is that some of you are totally oblivious to the real world and have your head crammed so far into a spreadsheet that you probably don't even have a use for this stuff, if you are whining about the EB1's performance compared to the E1B (Having owned the weapon-light version of the E1B, the M300A, myself). This is WORLDS better on high (the only mode mine has). The tint is great, the beam is very clean, the spill is useful, and the output trounces my M600C (E2DL equivalent) to my naked eye. Screw your spreadsheets, in the real world, this is a winner. Go take some 18" beamshots off a bedsheet or some mess and get back with us about an artifact in the beam that you found or something, but in the mean time, this is what the EB1/M300B looks like (very poorly photographed) at 100 meters:







Looked much better in person, but you get the idea. It's viable for use at 100m if you have a magnified optic to view facial features, and if just hunting hogs, will be fine with an RDS.

For non-LE/MIL/Hunting use, it looks like a serious barn-burner of a pocket-carry light and I bet the low mode is very useful in that role.


----------



## slingsy

Not sure if this has been discussed but with the EB1T does the clip rub/sit on the tailcap though use? - Like the E1B

Thinking about picking one of these up. Just curious, because if I had to put shrink tubing on the area would it would slow operation.. Or I'd just live with a shredded up tail. 

Thanks.


----------



## tonywalker23

I've had one since valentines day and it still isn't touching. It may be a tad but closer to te body from me holding the clip in my hand but still not touching. The clip is very sturdy. Much more than the lx2 style clip.


----------



## Robin24k

slingsy said:


> Not sure if this has been discussed but with the EB1T does the clip rub/sit on the tailcap though use? - Like the E1B


There is a larger gap on the tactical model (it's parallel to the body), but the clicky model does touch.


----------



## WilsonCQB1911

I don't have much of great substance to add to this thread other than to say that I love the EB1T. It's pretty darn awesome.


----------



## slingsy

tonywalker23 said:


> I've had one since valentines day and it still isn't touching. It may be a tad but closer to te body from me holding the clip in my hand but still not touching. The clip is very sturdy. Much more than the lx2 style clip.





Robin24k said:


> There is a larger gap on the tactical model (it's parallel to the body), but the clicky model does touch.



Oh, yep.. just what I wanted to hear, cheers fellas.


----------



## steveG

I'm getting ready to order one of these but I can't decide on which tailcap I want... decisions, decisions. Has anyone had luck purchasing one of the EB1 tailcaps from Surefire?

Also, the heads have standard E-series, threads. Right? I could use this head on the 2xAA body I have for my E1L?

Thanks!


----------



## 880arm

steveG said:


> I'm getting ready to order one of these but I can't decide on which tailcap I want... decisions, decisions. Has anyone had luck purchasing one of the EB1 tailcaps from Surefire?
> 
> Also, the heads have standard E-series, threads. Right? I could use this head on the 2xAA body I have for my E1L?
> 
> Thanks!



I don't know about the tailcap but the head is definitely E-series compatible. The only issue is that the spring on the head makes for a tight fit on some bodies but it's worked on all the ones I've tried it on.


----------



## BillSWPA

Recently got an EB1T.

I am very impressed with this light. The user interface is the best I have seen, with both low and high being instantly available at all times. There is no chance of unintentionally clicking the light from momentary on to constant on, but constant on is available if I want it. On high, I can illuminate things quite far away. I was a bit surprised by the size of the light, which strikes me as big for a 1xCR123, and which is quite comparable in size to my 2xCR123 E2E. However, the light carries very well in a pocket and is comfortable to use in my hand.


----------



## Eagle 1

i bought the new backup a couple months ago, and i've noticed flickering on the low mode. i was experimenting reading with it and the flickering was enough to drive me nuts! any advice on how to fix it? or should i just send it into Surefire? i've only run primaries through it and their "authorized" rechargeables (K2 Energy LFP 123A 3.2V). flickering occurred with both cells...


----------



## 880arm

Eagle 1 said:


> i bought the new backup a couple months ago, and i've noticed flickering on the low mode. i was experimenting reading with it and the flickering was enough to drive me nuts! any advice on how to fix it? . . . . . .



I haven't experienced any sort of flickering with mine. 

If you haven't done so already, it would probably be a good idea to check and make sure the threads at the head and tail are clean and allowing good contact. If that doesn't make any difference, then it's time to give SureFire a call and let them worry about it.


----------



## stevieo

I had a change of heart & cancelled my order for EB1 tactical clicky without shroud like the E1B UI. Then I decided I needed an EB1. Today I rec'd Tan EB1 tactical without shroud & without clicky. I like it. I like the slight press for low, a slight further press for high or full press for instant high & twist for low lock on & twist further for high lock on. The amount of twist from low before reaching high is about 180 degrees of the tailcap. Then there is another 180 degree twist once high is locked on before the tailcap comes to complete stop. I have noticed occasional intermittent flickering of the low mode during twist only (not in press) in the very early stages of low mode twist. It is not a problem for me if I am steady or quick twist past the short flickering section. It actually took me a minute or two to give this UI the thumbs up. I would have preferred a short twist of low & a further short twist before reaching high mode lock on rather 180 degrees to high and another excess 180 degrees to complete stop of the tailcap twist. I am not bothered in the least by the design. Very happy with purchase. Beam can be a little artifacty at close range at straight-white walls but spreads out fine at about 6 feet outside in real conditions & is unnoticeable at 10 to 150 feet & beyond outside. The output is considerably brighter, much better thrower & with wider beam pattern than the E1B. This is not a subtle increase in output, throw or beam pattern. It is certainly not floody by any means. I am enthusiastically pleased with the purchase. The only complaint is that my 1 inch diameter SF diffusers & red filters will not fit the EB1.


----------



## Suuko

How many people are running the new EB1 head on the older E1B body?
I personally love the feel of the older body style and was curious if there was much difference.

Thanks


----------



## carrot

Suuko said:


> How many people are running the new EB1 head on the older E1B body?
> I personally love the feel of the older body style and was curious if there was much difference.
> 
> Thanks



I can't honestly say the difference is that great going from the new EB1 body to the E1B body. They are extremely similar already, an extra millimeter or so is hardly noticeable in hand.


----------



## spinny

For anyone curious about swapping tailcaps between the tactical and clicky versions, I can say that it most definitely works with ONE caveat. Apparently the delay programming (to switch from high to low) is different on the two models (longer on the clicky version). I originally purchased a EB1 Tactical and tested it out with a clicky tailcap from my friend's EB1. In order to switch to low mode, you must "double tap" the switch MUCH faster than is required on the "official" clicky version. This makes sense, since you wouldn't want your tactical light switching to low unexpectedly on the second press. After putting the tactical tailcap back on mine, i was actually able to get it to switch to low on a 2nd hard press if done EXTREMELY quickly...


----------



## kelmo

Suuko said:


> How many people are running the new EB1 head on the older E1B body?
> I personally love the feel of the older body style and was curious if there was much difference.
> 
> Thanks



I'm running a E1B head on a EB1 body w/shrouded tailcap!


----------



## tongkang

New user here...any update using IMR please?


----------



## yowzer

Can anybody do a beamshot comparison between the EB1 and Armytek Partner XP-G? I'm curious how the TIR optics in the two compare when it comes to focusing the two different LEDs.


----------



## Glock 22

I can't believe I did it but I purchased another EB1. I fist had the Clicky type with the Tail Shrould. And did not like it a bit. I don't even know if it had it a week, nothing wrong with the light I just did'nt like the greenish tint it had. So I just got a brain storm and ordered the EB1T. I'm highly inpressed with this light. I really like the Tactical two stage switch. Which I've owned a couple of LX2's and really liked them. I've noticed and few things that different, the pocket clip seems to be a little longer than the previous one I had or it may just be me, the greenish tint I'm not really seeing it like I did on my last one, I stuck a battery in it that had a little runtime on it and it appears to be brighter than the first one that I had. Like I said it maybe just me on the things I mentioned. I have played around with it quite a bit and it's not even started to dim. I really like this one and am going to keep it for my EDC. I chose the silver one and really like the color it's just something different than having all black lights like I almost do. If you'll read back when I started this thread I was'nt a big fan I hated it. Also I was one of the first to recieve one. This one has really caught my attention, or if it starts acting up I know what to do with it. I have a brand new E1B and when the battery runs down and switches to the low mode the beam starts a quivering motion, all the other E1B's I've had did not do that or is that just normal?


----------



## tonkem

Glock 22 said:


> I can't believe I did it but I purchased another EB1. I fist had the Clicky type with the Tail Shrould. And did not like it a bit. I don't even know if it had it a week, nothing wrong with the light I just did'nt like the greenish tint it had. So I just got a brain storm and ordered the EB1T. I'm highly inpressed with this light. I really like the Tactical two stage switch. Which I've owned a couple of LX2's and really liked them. I've noticed and few things that different, the pocket clip seems to be a little longer than the previous one I had or it may just be me, the greenish tint I'm not really seeing it like I did on my last one, I stuck a battery in it that had a little runtime on it and it appears to be brighter than the first one that I had. Like I said it maybe just me on the things I mentioned. I have played around with it quite a bit and it's not even started to dim. I really like this one and am going to keep it for my EDC. I chose the silver one and really like the color it's just something different than having all black lights like I almost do. If you'll read back when I started this thread I was'nt a big fan I hated it. Also I was one of the first to recieve one. This one has really caught my attention, or if it starts acting up I know what to do with it. I have a brand new E1B and when the battery runs down and switches to the low mode the beam starts a quivering motion, all the other E1B's I've had did not do that or is that just normal?



I also picked up a EB1-T, and have noticed no dimming and love the low high press like the LX2 that I used to have. I have taken the head off and put it on my E2L-aa and works like a E1B in that the high comes on first, then low. I will likely be getting a E1L-a head and putting on the EB1-T body, even though it would not give me the true soft hard press of the EB1, but give me the silent operation of the twisty in a sleek package, and the long long runtime and moderately high brightness of the E1L-a  I guess that would be a frankenlight. I got a great deal on the EB1-T that I got, so I am very happy....


----------



## Lucky Duck

Tonkem, where's the "great deal" to be had?


----------



## tonkem

Lucky Duck said:


> Tokem, where's the "great deal" to be had?



Used on eBay


----------



## Lodogg2221

Darn you guys. I was all set to just be happy with my E1B and NOT get an EB1....but now I might have to, in tan of course, because I dont have any other tan lights besides my helmet light...lol.


----------



## MatthewSB

Lodogg2221 said:


> Darn you guys. I was all set to just be happy with my E1B and NOT get an EB1....but now I might have to, in tan of course, because I dont have any other tan lights besides my helmet light...lol.



While you should definately get the EB1, I still carry my E1B even though I own both.

The E1B has a tapered head, as opposed to the parallel sided EB1 that chews up pockets faster. Also, even with "only" 110 lumens, the E1B is bright enough.


----------



## masakari

So I have a EB1 with the non-clicky tailcap, and although it is great, the tailcap is just too slick for me to quickly and easily remove it from my pocket. I see that the clicky version has somewhat of a shroud, is there a way to convert mine? I read above that there are some slight compatibility issues, so for best performance, would it just be best to get a new EB1 and sell mine?
To be honest, my dream light would be something like the E2DL just with a single battery, and still 200 lumens. I want it to be high and then low, and I like clicky tailcaps, as long as they're well shrouded. The Sure VTAC L4 mini would be perfect, but it is only single output, and too dim.
I feel like the EB1 almost gets there, but its still slightly lacking in the ergonomics I'm looking for.
Thanks for the help


----------



## Glock 22

I just had to go and do it again. I liked my recent EB1-T that I had to go and order the clicky version of it without the shrould. The EB1-T I got it in silver so I went with a black one in the clicky version. I have a brand new E1B in my gun safe that will pretty much give me a set.


----------



## kelmo

I got to use my EB1 Tacticool hiking recently. I was coming down a trail at dusk/dark. The switch interface is fantastic for this type of use. This is my biggest gripe with SF. The difference between 5 and 200 lumens is tremendous. If the low was 20 lumens it would be the perfect trail light. I still love this light but it has room to improve.


----------



## pjandyho

kelmo said:


> I got to use my EB1 Tacticool hiking recently. I was coming down a trail at dusk/dark. The switch interface is fantastic for this type of use. This is my biggest gripe with SF. The difference between 5 and 200 lumens is tremendous. If the low was 20 lumens it would be the perfect trail light. I still love this light but it has room to improve.


From the perspective of a day to day user, I would agree with you. However Surefire did not make this light for the day to day users like you and I. They made this light for the cops. 5 lumen low was intended for them to use when writing down notes, and 200 lumen of course was meant for tactical operations. If they were to provide a low of 20 lumens instead of 5 then I think it would be too bright for notes taking.


----------



## lionken07

Can anyone confirm that you can use 16340 on this EB1 backup?


----------



## 880arm

lionken07 said:


> Can anyone confirm that you can use 16340 on this EB1 backup?



I can confirm that you cannot use li-ion 16340's. Anything over about 3.4V will cause the EB1 to stay in low mode until the battery voltage drops to a lower level. To summarize:


1 x 123A lithium primary (3 volt nominal) works fine
1 x LFP123 rechargeable (3.2 volt nominal) may not work properly when fresh off charger. Will run in low mode only for a little while until voltage drops and then will work fine.
1 x 16340 li-ion rechargeable (3.7 volt nominal) low mode
2 x 123A lithium primary (6 volts nominal) low mode only. Thankfully it doesn't go  (I mixed up my EB1 and EB2 heads once)


----------



## lionken07

hmmm what kind of rechargeable should i use for the EB1 as "best" setup?

I'm thinking about running the AW LiFePO4 3 Volt rechargeable on it...


----------



## Glock 22

lionken07 said:


> hmmm what kind of rechargeable should i use for the EB1 as "best" setup?
> 
> I'm thinking about running the AW LiFePO4 3 Volt rechargeable on it...




Way back I tried a bunch of LifePO4's and I remember the one that gave me the longest runtime was the K2's that Surefire sells. The AW brand had the less runtime of them all that I tried, and I use AW's regular in my other lights, and I'm a real big fan of them. If it was me I'd go with the ones Surefire sells.


----------



## kelmo

Hey Glock 22!

Your old one is still running strong!

kelmo


----------



## Glock 22

kelmo said:


> Hey Glock 22!
> 
> Your old one is still running strong!
> 
> kelmo



Awesome glad you still like it. I had to have another one, and it goes wherever I go, I like it a lot and it gets plenty of use.


----------



## lionken07

I tried the EB1 using 16340 and it works...


----------



## Random Dan

lionken07 said:


> I tried the EB1 using 6340 and it works...


What voltage was the cell at?


----------



## lionken07

i tried it at fully charged, partly charged and almost empty. 4.2v, 3.8v, and 3v.


----------



## SoCalDep

I lost my EB1T a couple weeks ago. I think it fell from my pocket as I took my keys out to get in the car. I'm depressed. It was my favorite EDC light.


----------



## pjandyho

SoCalDep said:


> I lost my EB1T a couple weeks ago. I think it fell from my pocket as I took my keys out to get in the car. I'm depressed. It was my favorite EDC light.


I know how it felt like. Lost my Minimus Vision headlamp when on a trip in Bali. Must have been hiding underneath the blanket since I used it to read my book the night before my departure. Had to get a new one immediately since I love the Minimus Vision so much.


----------



## John_Galt

Its probably been covered but.

Do the eb1 heads work with vitalgear bodies? If not eb1 howbout the new gen e1l?


----------



## 01foreman400

The run time on this light keeps me from buying it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## moshow9

John_Galt said:


> Its probably been covered but.
> 
> Do the eb1 heads work with vitalgear bodies? If not eb1 howbout the new gen e1l?


I believe so, from what I understand the heads are standard E-series. I believe the tailcaps (from E1b to EB1) are not compatible though.

On a different note, has anyone attempted to install a McClicky into an EB1 tailcap?


----------



## Random Dan

John_Galt said:


> Its probably been covered but.
> 
> Do the eb1 heads work with vitalgear bodies? If not eb1 howbout the new gen e1l?


Yes threads are the same. Make sure you have the EB1C (regular clicky switch) and not the EB1T (SF's proprietary two-stage tactical switch). EB1C should work on any e-series click switch body. I don't think the EB1T will work with a reg clicky, but I could be remembering wrong.

:EDIT: Just got curious and double-checked myself. Turns out I lied, you should be good either way.



270winchester said:


> I sometimes put my EB1 head on my Vital gear FB1 body. It's a real pocket rocket that way with built in bezel down clip





Robin24k said:


> Both, but both lights use the same head.


----------



## Glock19carrier

Can I put a eb2t head on a eb1t body and get 500 lum on a single cr123 with less run time?


----------



## Stainz

A quick perusal of the last pages here didn't find my follow-up to my late winter post re not getting an EB1C, which was reversed in early May when I took delivery of my $150 delivered new Backup - almost twice what I had paid for my original 80 Lumen E1b, which is still mostly black, save some wear areas. It also has sported the refurbed E2DL tailcap from some six months later, making it a tailcap stander of the first order - and still my middle of the night cat/cat hairball avoidance device, while the new silver EB1C sees EDC use. I also updated my old 120 Lumen E2DL and bought a new 500 Lumen E2DL Ultra in Sept. After several months of use - 80-90% low/20-10% high - I have not noted shorter S-F CR123a lives re the original flashlights. They are brighter and larger, of course. They all have a home. Another example of S-F LED flashlight gluttony!


----------



## Robin24k

Glock19carrier said:


> Can I put a eb2t head on a eb1t body and get 500 lum on a single cr123 with less run time?


No, the EB2 head does not have boost circuitry. In fact, it may not even light up if the battery is too low.


----------



## SoCalDep

SoCalDep said:


> I lost my EB1T a couple weeks ago. I think it fell from my pocket as I took my keys out to get in the car. I'm depressed. It was my favorite EDC light.



All is right with the world! After some subtle hinting, my wife gave me an EB1 for Christmas!


----------



## 880arm

Wow, what a woman! :thumbsup:


----------



## SoCalDep

880arm said:


> Wow, what a woman! :thumbsup:



Yea...She's a keeper!

And since I have one again, I'll talk a bit about my impressions of the EB1.

When the light first came out I read all the posts here and was disappointed about the output/runtime, etc. I had hoped for greatness from Surefire as I really wanted a smaller tactical light...I like the 2-stage tailcap and have an LX2 so I'm used to the UI. I have an E1B, and while it's a really nice light, I hate the high/low switching. 

I ended up just deciding to go for it and ordered a tan EB1 to try out. I ended up carrying that light every day from around march through whenever I lost it (October or November???) and I don't think I ever changed the batteries. It was still brighter (to me) than another 180 lumen light I have and the TIR lens made for a great beam profile. 

When I lost the light I went back to my E1B rotating with a Fenix LD12. Both good lights, but the EB1 fits my hand perfectly...I love the instant low or high access, and I haven't noticed any issue with run time. I use the low mode more than anything, but I use high fairly often as I am a weapons instructor for my department and do low-light training fairly often. 

Now that I have an EB1 again (black this time) I can say that while it may not have the best performance on a graph, it's my favorite light.


----------



## Robin24k

SoCalDep said:


> Both good lights, but the EB1 fits my hand perfectly


I'm with you on that. In another thread, people were complaining about how SureFire lights were getting bigger...

Small lights tend to be difficult to hold securely, and it's easy to block the bezel with your palm. More surface area makes for a better heatsink. :thumbsup:


----------



## Maxbelg

I just bought another EB1 tactical and was in for a surprise:

The electronics in the head are now different. 

My first EB1 with serial number A04813 won't run with LiFePO4 cells until they are almost empty but runs well on IMRs. Furthermore it has the "pre flash" issue and sometimes doesn't go on when I repeatedly press for momentary on. It also has a slightly frosted lens and a hotspot which sort of blends into the surrounding beam. I can also put this head on my E1B body and with the clicky tail cap it works like the E1B.

My new EB1 with serial number A11850 runs perfectly on fully charged LiFePO4 cells. It doesn't have any issues when strobing manually and to my surprise it has only 1 level on my E1B body! Furthermore it has a perfectly clear lens and a very well-defined hotspot which is larger than on my older EB1.







So obviously the electronics have been changed in the new EB1 and now the head works like the LX2 head. It would be interesting to see runtime charts with the new head but I'm not equipped to perform such a test. 

I like both EB1s and am not even sure which I like more as I'm not in the habit of strobing manually, so functionally the old EB1 was perfect and I quite like the possibility of using the head on an E1B body with clicky. On the new one I like the LiFePO4 compatibility.

This information might be important for someone thinking of buying the EB1 with the idea of using the head on an E1B.

Fun Legos, some functional some not!


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Maxbelg said:


> I just bought another EB1 tactical and was in for a surprise:
> 
> The electronics in the head are now different.
> 
> So obviously the electronics have been changed in the new EB1 and now the head works like the LX2 head. It would be interesting to see runtime charts with the new head but I'm not equipped to perform such a test.



Thanks for sharing these discoveries. :thumbsup: 

Here's a couple of my earlier posts about the electronics in the initial production EB1:



Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> They do seem to be up to something with the EB1 electronics.
> 
> I am puzzled by physical complexity of the EB1 circuitry compared to other LED light designs, e.g. Gene's P60 dropins or David's Quarks. There are perhaps 60 surface mount component packages visible on the two circuit boards in the head of the EB1. Seems like a lot of parts overhead just to get two modes on a single cell LED light in 2012. Is this module also to be used in other small SF lights with a jumper cut or different code for two cell and rechargeable applications, perhaps?





Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> I've looked inside the head of my EB1 and the electronics are indeed more complex than other small lights from the aspect of parts count and circuit board area. There is a Microchip Technology F24K22 microcontroller with 16K of flash memory as I noted on another thread here. We've literally landed on the moon with less computing power.
> 
> The SF 2012 catalog released about a year ago shows the 'programmable' icon by the EB1 but the product box doesn't. If the EB1 is indeed programmble through light shining on the emitter as some of the SF ad copy implies on page 29 of the 2012 catalog, does this mean that the light has some click sequence to put it in program mode? Or, does the light from the dongle generate enough voltage on the emitter to power the programming sequence with the EB1 switch turned off?
> 
> Or, did this dongle gadget just not work out and will it quietly disappear from the 2013 catalog?
> 
> The EB1 circuit boards have 'test points' that look like they could be used for a firmware update, but this would require disassembly of the light.



Anybody want to take a peek at the electronics in the 'new' EB1 head? Is it a redesign in hardware or a firmware upgrade on the original setup? Presumably SF would want to go to a simpler, less costly design after abandoning the user programmability feature. On the other hand, SF is famous for often sticking with legacy parts, for example LED emitters, long after other manufacturers have moved to newer technology.

And, speaking of emitters, is there a new LED in late model EB1's perhaps?


----------



## moshow9

Would someone mind trying to see if a McClicky will fit in the tailcap of a EB1 clicky?


----------



## Maxbelg

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> !.................., is there a new LED in late model EB1's perhaps?



Yes, I read your previous posts, thanks. I'm not going to try to peek at the electronics, I sent my old EB1 to Vinh for an emitter upgrade and even he couldn't crack the head!!! LED looks like a Cree XPE so no upgrade there.


----------



## Random Dan

Have you tried a 4.2v Li-Ion in the new EB1? My recollection is that in the old EB1 it only worked on low mode with Li-Ion.


----------



## BillSWPA

It would really be nice if Surefire fixed the switching issue on the tactical models so that repeated full presses in rapid succession always result in high. The usefulness is not manual strobing, but is searching multiple areas in rapid succession. For example, coming down a flight of stairs and having to quickly check areas to both your right and left. I would hate to have the light come on low if I happen to find who/what I am looking for in the second of the two areas I check. Knowing that this issue was fixed would cause me to go back to recommending their products.


----------



## Maxbelg

Random Dan said:


> Have you tried a 4.2v Li-Ion in the new EB1? My recollection is that in the old EB1 it only worked on low mode with Li-Ion.


Yes it works at least with IMR , but I only tried for a few seconds as I'm not sure it's a good idea with the new driver. I have been using IMR without problems in my old EB1 since I got it.



BillSWPA said:


> It would really be nice if Surefire fixed the switching issue on the tactical models so that repeated full presses in rapid succession always result in high. The usefulness is not manual strobing, but is searching multiple areas in rapid succession. For example, coming down a flight of stairs and having to quickly check areas to both your right and left. I would hate to have the light come on low if I happen to find who/what I am looking for in the second of the two areas I check. Knowing that this issue was fixed would cause me to go back to recommending their products.


I don' think it's an issue. You have to repeatedly press full presses before it happens. You could always look left right left right and left again without issues. Anyway they have "fixed" it now in the new EB1 but have lost the ability to use the head on a clicky body for 2 levels.


----------



## BillSWPA

Maxbelg said:


> I don' think it's an issue. You have to repeatedly press full presses before it happens. You could always look left right left right and left again without issues. Anyway they have "fixed" it now in the new EB1 but have lost the ability to use the head on a clicky body for 2 levels.



Let's get back to the example in my previous post. As you are coming down the stairs, knowing that there might be someone in the building who does not belong there, you have two areas, one to your right, and one to your left, from which you will be exposed as you reach the bottom. Which option most appeals to you:

1) Leave the light on as you check both areas, providing a nice target indicator for whoever may be there?

2) Wait at least two seconds after checking the first area before checking the second, providing two extra seconds of warning to whoever might be there?

3) Re-activate the light quickly to check the second area, and risk relying on a mere 5 lumens to provide the 1/2 second advantage that the full power light would normally provide?

4) Spend less than 1/3 of the suggested retail price of a Surefire for a light that will actually function the way it is advertised to function?

If someone wants a head that works on a clicky body, then they can buy a clicky head. These lights are advertised as being built without compromise rather than being built to a certain price point, and currently have suggested retail prices well over $200. At those prices, cutting corners isn't acceptable. Had this been done right the first time, I would still be EDCing an EB!T rather than moving on to FourSevens and Klarus lights.


----------



## Robin24k

Based on that example, I am almost certain that the light would behave properly.

To get a repro of high/low switching on the tactical model, you have to be intentionally pressing the switch very fast (like trying to manually operate a 10Hz strobe).


----------



## BillSWPA

I have had the light come on low at least twice while performing exactly the example I described.


----------



## bmenard

GeoBruin said:


> It's going to have to be quite an upgrade to replace my 210 lumen, warm E1B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *EDIT* By the way, thanks to Glock 22 for the host!


GeoBruin, beautiful upgrade. Might I ask what upgraded head is on your your backup? New to the forum......Thanks


----------



## moshow9

Not GeoBruin, and he would have to answer what Malkoff module he has in his setup, but the head is a Valiant Concepts VME Head.


----------



## Random Dan

moshow9 said:


> Not GeoBruin, and he would have to answer what Malkoff module he has in his setup, but the head is a Valiant Concepts VME Head.


Based on the fact that he said it's warm tint and 210lm it's probably an M31W.


----------



## Maxbelg

Robin24k said:


> ..........To get a repro of high/low switching on the tactical model, you have to be intentionally pressing the switch very fast (like trying to manually operate a 10Hz strobe).



Exactly! That's what I have been trying to explain. It is only an "issue" in the old EB1 when manually strobing, although for me this isn't an issue at all. The new EB1 doesn't have this "issue" but loses the ability to be used on a clicky body with 2 levels.


----------



## tonywalker23

so if i was looking for an eb1 with the new firmware how could i be sure i got the correct thing?


----------



## tonywalker23

ill also throw in... i just called Surefire about my k2 rechargeable batteries, one of them is dead after resting for only a week, reads 1.38. while i was on the phone with them i mentioned the firmware and asked if they could fix one. i told him for example when I'm sitting at walmart waiting for my wife to come out and i try to 'strobe' her so she can see where i am in the parking lot the light doesn't work after a few presses. he told me 'you must have bought one of the earlier eb1's. you as a consumer don't need to be concerned with that. the light is functioning normal.'


----------



## Sean

Maxbelg said:


> I just bought another EB1 tactical and was in for a surprise:
> 
> The electronics in the head are now different.
> 
> My first EB1 with serial number A04813 won't run with LiFePO4 cells until they are almost empty but runs well on IMRs. Furthermore it has the "pre flash" issue and sometimes doesn't go on when I repeatedly press for momentary on. It also has a slightly frosted lens and a hotspot which sort of blends into the surrounding beam. I can also put this head on my E1B body and with the clicky tail cap it works like the E1B.
> 
> My new EB1 with serial number A11850 runs perfectly on fully charged LiFePO4 cells. It doesn't have any issues when strobing manually and to my surprise it has only 1 level on my E1B body! Furthermore it has a perfectly clear lens and a very well-defined hotspot which is larger than on my older EB1.
> 
> 
> 
> So obviously the electronics have been changed in the new EB1 and now the head works like the LX2 head. It would be interesting to see runtime charts with the new head but I'm not equipped to perform such a test.
> 
> I like both EB1s and am not even sure which I like more as I'm not in the habit of strobing manually, so functionally the old EB1 was perfect and I quite like the possibility of using the head on an E1B body with clicky. On the new one I like the LiFePO4 compatibility.
> 
> This information might be important for someone thinking of buying the EB1 with the idea of using the head on an E1B.



Where did you get the newer EB1T from? Does anyone know who is carrying the newer version?
I just bought one and it's the older version. The only issue I have with it is that it won't work with fully charged LiFePO4 cells. I really like the beam. But I'm wondering what the beam without the diffusion film looks like. Could you take a side by side comparison shot?


----------



## Sean

Doing some more testing, it seems my EB1T will work with fully or almost fully charged LiFePO4 cells if I screw the tailcap down to constant on. But if I try to reach high by pressing the tailcap all the way down it won't work. This seems odd. I can't quite figure this out. Anyone else try this? After doing this a few times it seems to start working normally (probably because the voltage has dropped enough) but I have one cell that just refuses to give me high output in the EB1T even though it has been run down quite a bit more than others I have tried.

Tried another test, put a cell fresh off the charger into the EB1T and it didn't work on high, tightened it down and still not high. Put it in my E2DL body with a battery spacer & EB1T head and it works on high, no problem and switches between high & low no problem. This is strange. If the head is programmed to not allow this high of voltage then why does it allow this voltage on the E2DL body & tailcap? Must be a combination of the tactical tailcap and head.


----------



## tonywalker23

Just got my brand new eb1t in the mail today 

Same old firmware that my old one had that I sold to buy this one… bought it from la police. I was hoping to get one with the bugs worked out.


----------



## Sean

tonywalker23 said:


> Just got my brand new eb1t in the mail today
> 
> Same old firmware that my old one had that I sold to buy this one… bought it from la police. I was hoping to get one with the bugs worked out.



That's also where I got mine. What's your serial number? Mine is under 5,000. I've found them to carry older stock on lights as if no one buys from them much? Or maybe they bought a huge lot of them when they first came out? Not sure. 

Just have Surefire fix it.


----------



## tonywalker23

I've already boxed it up but the number was 4000 something. 

I had an eb1 a while back. I tried to get Surefire to fix it and they wouldn't. I told them what was going and an they said I didn't need to worry about it my light was normal. When I told him many people on cpf talk a out the problem he said he'd never heard of it. I tried to explain to him again and he have another ignorant/dishonest answer.


----------



## tonywalker23

As far as la police having older stock… the e1la came with a one way clip instead of a two way. Arm880 had the same problem with his light like that. Think it was due to initial stock. Guess that means la police still is trying to sell their first batch?


----------



## Sean

tonywalker23 said:


> I've already boxed it up but the number was 4000 something.
> 
> I had an eb1 a while back. I tried to get Surefire to fix it and they wouldn't. I told them what was going and an they said I didn't need to worry about it my light was normal. When I told him many people on cpf talk a out the problem he said he'd never heard of it. I tried to explain to him again and he have another ignorant/dishonest answer.



My concern is simple. The EB1T doesn't work with Surefire's own rechargeables. But apparently the newer version does. So they are aware of the problem and have fixed it.


----------



## Sean

tonywalker23 said:


> As far as la police having older stock… the e1la came with a one way clip instead of a two way. Arm880 had the same problem with his light like that. Think it was due to initial stock. Guess that means la police still is trying to sell their first batch?



Well that's nice to know. I've got one on the way from them. We will see when it shows up.


----------



## Robin24k

tonywalker23 said:


> I've already boxed it up but the number was 4000 something.


4000-series is quite old. The EB1's that I got in March 2013 were in the 6000-series.


----------



## tonywalker23

I got an email today. (Surefire is sending me a two way clip for the outdoorsman so that's out of the way). La police said they were sorry for sending me an old product. They said they would send me a ups sticker and give me a refund or exchange although they couldn't promise I'd get a new one like I want due to their mixed stock. 

I sent another email saying if I can talk to whoever pulls it from stock I can tell them what to look for (clear lens instead of frosted, that's right isn't it?) but they haven't responded. 

I know I could just refund it and buy one from somewhere else but I got a discount code that makes the light about $130 which is hard to beat.


----------



## Robin24k

They won't be able to pull lights out of the box for you. You'll need to find a higher-volume retailer, or buy direct from SureFire.


----------



## tongkang

Got a chance play with new EB1 Clicky at my local place and found the beam profile more floody than mine,hotspot also bigger and I'm sure i will find it less lux in further distance...all I can say is not cool,if I'm not mistaken the head been screwed further down compare to my EB1,the lens also crystal clear...maybe that should cost the floody beam?


----------



## Sean

tonywalker23 said:


> I got an email today. (Surefire is sending me a two way clip for the outdoorsman so that's out of the way). La police said they were sorry for sending me an old product. They said they would send me a ups sticker and give me a refund or exchange although they couldn't promise I'd get a new one like I want due to their mixed stock.
> 
> I sent another email saying if I can talk to whoever pulls it from stock I can tell them what to look for (clear lens instead of frosted, that's right isn't it?) but they haven't responded.
> 
> I know I could just refund it and buy one from somewhere else but I got a discount code that makes the light about $130 which is hard to beat.



How's the tint on your E1L-A?


----------



## tonywalker23

I shined all three on the wall in low. The defender was whitest. The backup was in the middle. The outdoorsman was the greenest. 

But it wasn't anything terrible.


----------



## BillSWPA

If there is a good way to determine which lights have the new firmware, it would seem that it could turn a problem into an opportunity. While I certainly prefer the newer version, other participants in other threads have expressed a preference for the old version. Separate out the old versions, list them separately on the seller's website, and perhaps offer a discount on the older version. Advertise that this was done over in the marketplace and here. 

That could be a win-win for everyone. Customers know they are getting the light they want. Dealers don't have to worry about customers getting the old version, complaining, and returning it. People who cannot afford or perhaps do not want to pay typical Surefire prices can get the older light at a discount, will full knowledge of what they are buying and why it is discounted. Perhaps some of them would come to appreciate Surefire lights and purchase others.


----------



## Sean

I don't know if anyone else is aware of this or if I missed this somewhere but if you switch the heads on the E1L-A and EB1 (early version) that the EB1 head will work on the E1L body with clickie tailcap (we already knew this) but what I didn't know is that the KE1 head works on the EB1 body with tactical switch. Press for low, press all the way for 90 lumen high. Thought that was pretty cool. The only problem is if you give a full press it only comes on low. You have to press for low and then hesitate for a second and then press all the way for high.

Also, I tested the output of the EB1, it's closer to 250 lumens at startup. I then tested the E1L-A. Output at turn on was about 92-95 lumens until stepdown (after 2 minutes) to 70 lumens. (according to my setup)


----------



## 270winchester

Sean said:


> EB1 (early version) ...
> Also, I tested the output of the EB1, it's closer to 250 lumens at startup. I then tested the E1L-A. Output at turn on was about 95 lumens until stepdown (after a 2 minutes) to 70 lumens. (according to my setup)



Good to know. So the initial output is higher than the advertised 200 for even the early versions. Thank you.


----------



## Sean

270winchester said:


> Good to know. So the initial output is higher than the advertised 200 for even the early versions. Thank you.



It does make sense looking at run time charts of the EB1 and remembering that my LX2 and older E2DL both put out about 250 lumens as well.


----------



## AznDragon567

Is there a way to tell if you have the old EB1 vs new EB1?

model numbers > 6000 = New version of EB1?


----------



## Robin24k

Possibly, but definately not 6000 because that range was manufactured before March 2013.

If the serial number is on the head, rather than the body, it's definately new.


----------



## pjandyho

Was at my local dealer in Singapore and they have on display a tan EB1 tactical. I asked when they received the shipment and they said it was mid last year. Now I am quite sure that is from the old batch before Surefire made any improvements to the UI. Guess what? I smashed the switch as fast and as many times my thumb could handle and not once did it default to low output. I offered to buy the tan EB1 tactical on display since they have no more tan version, but they refused to sell it to me.


----------



## Sean

AznDragon567 said:


> Is there a way to tell if you have the old EB1 vs new EB1?
> 
> model numbers > 6000 = New version of EB1?



If it's greater than 11,000 it's new. That's as much as I can tell you.


----------



## Kid9P

Anyone have beamshots comparing the older EB1's vs the newer production ones?

I picked up a silver EB1 a few days ago, with the tail shroud.
Serial number is in the 3,000 range. Not to thrilled with the tint.
The hotspot is twice as wide as my 250 lumen Tactical HDS.
As far as throw goes, the EB1 blows the HDS away. 
The Surefire definetely has a much brighter hotspot.

I would like to know if the newer production EB1's have a tighter
hotspot, that would be killer !


----------



## tobrien

Kid9P said:


> Anyone have beamshots comparing the older EB1's vs the newer production ones?
> 
> I picked up a silver EB1 a few days ago, with the tail shroud.
> Serial number is in the 3,000 range. Not to thrilled with the tint.
> The hotspot is twice as wide as my 250 lumen Tactical HDS.
> As far as throw goes, the EB1 blows the HDS away.
> The Surefire definetely has a much brighter hotspot.
> 
> I would like to know if the newer production EB1's have a tighter
> hotspot, that would be killer !



I've seen beamshots of the EB1 versus E1B but I don't believe there have been same-model EB1 comparisons yet


----------



## tongkang

To my eyes the new EB1 beam profile has large hotspot same as the EB2 beam but less total of output...Maybe u got the low series's number with new head?..what I have found lately is the new head came with crystal clear lens and shorter maybe a hair compared to old head..please search for Maxbelg's pic few page back for comparison..I voted for old head for tighter beam




Kid9P said:


> Anyone have beamshots comparing the older EB1's vs the newer production ones?
> 
> I picked up a silver EB1 a few days ago, with the tail shroud.
> Serial number is in the 3,000 range. Not to thrilled with the tint.
> The hotspot is twice as wide as my 250 lumen Tactical HDS.
> As far as throw goes, the EB1 blows the HDS away.
> The Surefire definetely has a much brighter hotspot.
> 
> I would like to know if the newer production EB1's have a tighter
> hotspot, that would be killer !


----------



## Flashlight Dave

tongkang said:


> To my eyes the new EB1 beam profile *has large hotspot *same as the EB2 beam but less total of output...Maybe u got the low series's number with new head?..what I have found lately is the new head came with crystal clear lens and shorter maybe a hair compared to old head..please search for Maxbelg's pic few page back for comparison..I* voted for old head for tighter beam*



If there is a difference in the beam pattern with the new EB1's could this mean it is using a different LED?? I seem to remember Brianna once mentioning that the engineers at Surefire were upset with the regulation and were discussing using a different LED.

Pardon me if this has been mentioned before.


----------



## Viking

I will say it's reasonable to assume the new production line has less throw vs. the old one.
The early production line was advertised at 10.000 candela and 200 lumens in the 2013 catalog. Where as the currently production line is advertised at 6.000 candela and 200 lumens in the newly released 2014 catalog.

But some lux measurements would be nice to see for both of them


----------



## Robin24k

I think the updated EB1 is using the same LED as the EB2, which has a bigger die than the XP-E, so throw will be reduced.


----------



## Flashlight Dave

Robin24k said:


> I think the updated EB1 is using the same LED as the EB2, which has a bigger die than the XP-E, so throw will be reduced.



I had a suspicion of that. If this is the case then it would be nice if perhaps you or someone could do another run time graph to see if we get the same cliff dive as before.


----------



## Viking

That's actually a good suggestion.


----------



## Robin24k

I don't have an updated model. The LED is slightly more efficient, so it might be better regulated if it has the same output.


----------



## Flashlight Dave

We all need to get Robin a new updated EB1T!


----------



## Random Dan

Flashlight Dave said:


> We all need to get Robin a new updated EB1T!


Pass the hat around, I'll chip in a dollar :thumbsup:


----------



## tongkang

Lux measurement by sphere is it?I don't know if I can say this correct..in about 10-15 feet I can see some less lux between them..or maybe should I say less lumens?
just read some from 2014 catalog too,thanks..and yet found they advertised the new production line EB1 is 6k only,bad catalog




Viking said:


> I will say it's reasonable to assume the new production line has less throw vs. the old one.
> The early production line was advertised at 10.000 candela and 200 lumens in the 2013 catalog. Where as the currently production line is advertised at 6.000 candela and 200 lumens in the newly released 2014 catalog.
> 
> But some lux measurements would be nice to see for both of them


----------



## Kid9P

Hey Guys,

Quick question for anyone who has both the EB1 and the EB2.

I love my EB1, nice round hot spot with great throw. 
I was dying to see what the EB2 could do at 500 lumens and picked one up. 
I love it, don't get me wrong, this thing is bright but.....

I was hoping the hotspots would be the same. My EB2 has a slightly larger hotspot than my EB1.
Is this the norm ?

Thanks guys,

Ray


----------



## mossyoak

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

Yeah. The eb1 uses a Cree xpe emitter. The eb2 uses an XML. Much larger emission surface to focus


----------



## Kid9P

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

Thanks for the info Mossy :twothumbs


----------



## Robin24k

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



mossyoak said:


> Yeah. The eb1 uses a Cree xpe emitter. The eb2 uses an XML. Much larger emission surface to focus


It's an Osram Oslon Square, not Cree XM-L. The XM-L needs a much larger optic (like the one in the UNR).


----------



## tongkang

Sorry for the crapp pic and pardon me for the bad field view but thats all I have got atm...from left is EB2 loaded with AW Li-Fe and right is EB1..hope u get the idea Ray


----------



## Robin24k

That is expected if you have an early build EB1 with the XP-E.


----------



## RobertMM

What, down to 6000 candela? It better have tabletop regulation with a very long tail,and low mode runtime of more than 75 hours.


----------



## Kif

Finally able to get the setup like this: EB1T-A-BK Head + E2L-AA body + Z68 tail cap
Unfortunately there is only 200 Lumens high output but no 5 Lumens low output.
I just wonder if the EB1T-A & EB1C has the same type of head? The high/low output is controlled by the type of tail cap?


----------



## Robin24k

Kif said:


> I just wonder if the EB1T-A & EB1C has the same type of head? The high/low output is controlled by the type of tail cap?


This was the case with early models, but due to issues with the firmware, the heads were revised to only with one type of tail switch.


----------



## tobrien

kif that looks great


----------



## RobertMM

Thread bump.
With the newer XPG2 units,do we expect better runtime? Or are they supposed to have flatter regulation?


----------



## Robin24k

Efficiency is definately higher, and since the runtime spec hasn't changed, I would expect better regulation.


----------



## tongkang

How about Surefire's K2 batt..is it good to go?mine also low only with full charge AW LiFe batt but fine with IMR




Maxbelg said:


> I just bought another EB1 tactical and was in for a surprise:
> 
> The electronics in the head are now different.
> 
> My first EB1 with serial number A04813 won't run with LiFePO4 cells until they are almost empty but runs well on IMRs. Furthermore it has the "pre flash" issue and sometimes doesn't go on when I repeatedly press for momentary on. It also has a slightly frosted lens and a hotspot which sort of blends into the surrounding beam. I can also put this head on my E1B body and with the clicky tail cap it works like the E1B.
> 
> My new EB1 with serial number A11850 runs perfectly on fully charged LiFePO4 cells. It doesn't have any issues when strobing manually and to my surprise it has only 1 level on my E1B body! Furthermore it has a perfectly clear lens and a very well-defined hotspot which is larger than on my older EB1.


----------



## leon2245

Kif said:


> Finally able to get the setup like this: EB1T-A-BK Head + E2L-AA body + Z68 tail cap
> *Unfortunately there is only 200 Lumens high output but no 5 Lumens low output.*
> I just wonder if the EB1T-A & EB1C has the same type of head? The high/low output is controlled by the type of tail cap?




Perfect. I want that thing.


----------



## dan05gt

I really like it as well, but what about longevity? Is the EB1 head designed to run at 6V?


----------



## RobertMM

It' a 2xAA body so 3volts only.
I'd really like to see a runtime graph of the new EB1s.


----------



## kelmo

I emailed SF a while back on this setup, specifically noting using AA lithium cells and this is there response:

Hello Kelly,

Thank you for contacting SureFire. Do not use the EB1 head with AA batteries because if you experience an electrical malfunction, your warranty could be voided. 

Thank you,

Steven Schwier
Technical Support
SUREFIRE, LLC 
17680 Newhope St., Suite B I Fountain Valley, CA 92708 I U.S.A. 
T 800-828-8809 F 714-545-9537

When I activated the light it would flash at a higher output. This is what prompted me to email the question about using a 2XAA battery configuration. BTW the version of the head I use using is the 200/5 lumen for a clicky switch.

kelmo


----------



## Robin24k

I would expect customer service to be conservative about untested configurations, but from an engineering perspective, the risks of using 2 x lithium AA with the EB1 head is low.


----------



## RobertMM

Hi Kelmo, would you please elaborate what you meant when you said that the light would flash at higher output? Did you mean that it would just flash and not work properly on two AA batteries?
I was thinking it would get great runtime AND great regulation on two L91.


----------



## dan05gt

RobertMM said:


> It' a 2xAA body so 3volts only.
> I'd really like to see a runtime graph of the new EB1s.




My bad. I was thinking it was a E2L body, I spaced out and did not even notice the AA. Sorry about that.


----------



## kelmo

RobertMM said:


> Hi Kelmo, would you please elaborate what you meant when you said that the light would flash at higher output? Did you mean that it would just flash and not work properly on two AA batteries?
> I was thinking it would get great runtime AND great regulation on two L91.



When I turned it on it would pulse for lack of a better term before going to high. A power spike so to speak or a brief 300 lumen pulse. I don't know if this is unique to my bezel or the production run for this bezel. It's like a car engine over revving when you start it. 

kelmo


----------



## kelmo

Robin24k said:


> I would expect customer service to be conservative about untested configurations, but from an engineering perspective, the risks of using 2 x lithium AA with the EB1 head is low.



It was just weird behavior Robin24k so erred on the safe side.


----------



## Robin24k

Was it only with new batteries? I don't have any problems, but the pulsing issue sounds similar to that of fully-charged LFP123A.


----------



## SoCalEngr

Has anyone heard if this version of the Backup the EB1 will be discontinued or upgraded? I ask because the new E1D LED Defender has 300 lumen output from a single batt, so a new version of the Backup with the higher output should be here soon. Right?


----------



## RobertMM

Probably upgrade them and label them "new, higher output" when they sell off all the old stock.


----------



## kelmo

Robin24k said:


> Was it only with new batteries? I don't have any problems, but the pulsing issue sounds similar to that of fully-charged LFP123A.



You are correct, this happened with new batteries.


----------



## cland72

kelmo said:


> You are correct, this happened with new batteries.



Exactly what batteries were you using?


----------



## kelmo

cland72 said:


> Exactly what batteries were you using?



Eveready Lithiums.


----------



## Kif

I recently get another EB1 and it is a EB1C-A-SL (clicky tail cap with shroud)
I think it is the earlier version. I can use this EB1C head on MDC body and still keep the high-low two levels with no problem
Same, the MDC 3-levels head works great with EB1C body/clicky tail cap

I guess the electrical components on EB1C & EB1T heads are kind of different


----------



## RobertMM

Nice pics. Makes me wish (even more) that SF would make a TIR head with the same small dimensions as the MDC head.


----------



## IsaacL

I was under the impression that

EB2 uses OSRAM Oslon Square
E2D uses OSRAM Oslon Square
EB1 used XP-E then [???]
E1D uses XP-G2



RobertMM said:


> Thread bump.
> With the newer XPG2 units,do we expect better runtime? Or are they supposed to have flatter regulation?


----------



## Robin24k

I haven't been able to confirm that, but your list is correct:



IsaacL said:


> *EB2 and E2D used OSRAM Oslon Square
> EB1 used XP-E
> E1D used XP-G2*


If there is further confirmation, it could be "*EB1 used XP-E then ???*".


----------



## IsaacL

Thanks. Do you know why SF didn't use the Oslon Square on the single cell lights? Cost perhaps? 

The Oslon Square can be driven at 1.8A and that's just the recommended current. It's pretty efficient too, if I'm not mistaken.

I truly loved the beam and slightly greenish tint *gasp* of my EB2.

Also wanted to say that your reviews are invaluable. Some of the best stuff out there on SF lights.


----------



## Robin24k

I doubt you'll ever get an official answer, but cost is unlikely. The E1DL's beam is similar to the EB2 and slightly cleaner (there are some artifacts in the EB2's beam, likely from the Oslon Square's bond wires).


----------



## RobertMM

IsaacL said:


> *Thanks. Do you know why SF didn't use the Oslon Square on the single cell lights? Cost perhaps?
> 
> **The Oslon Square can be driven at 1.8A and that's just the recommended level. It's pretty efficient too, if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> **I truly loved the beam and slightly greenish tint *gasp* of my EB2.
> 
> **Also wanted to say that your reviews are invaluable. Some of the best stuff out there on SF lights.*



Does this mean if we transplant an Osram Oslon Square into an EB1, we get even better performance? I mean it can easily put out 500 lumens,so it shouldn't take a lot to drive it for250 or so lumens, right?
I mean runtime and regulation wise.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

IsaaL, please no more *BOLD font *unless used occasionally for emphasis. Thanks,

Bill


----------



## IsaacL

I went back and read through this thread and others. Took a little while but I found some speculation that there might be an OSRAM in the new version of the EB1. 

If someone has a new EB1 and would post some shots of the emitter, that would be great. Even better, send one to Robin24k for confirmation 

I just wish the EB1 could hit 300 lumens like the E1DL...that and use a more efficient emitter. I would pick one up in a heartbeat.



Bullzeyebill said:


> IsaacL, please no more *BOLD font *unless used occasionally for emphasis. Thanks,
> 
> Bill



Yes sir.


----------



## 880arm

The latest EB1 appears to use the same emitter as the first generation versions. I posted a crummy photo over in the EB1 Review thread but it at least shows the relative sizes of the emitters.

However, I wouldn't be surprised at all if SureFire switches the EB1 over to the same setup as the E1DL. It's unlike them to have such similar packages with completely different LEDs and/or drivers. But who knows? :shrug:


----------



## Robin24k

Maybe marketing got ahead...200 lumens / 6,400 candela = 500 lumens / 16,000 candela, suggesting that the EB1 should/would use the same LED as the EB2.


----------



## IsaacL

Ahhh, I see what you guys are saying now. It guess we'll just have to wait and see whether a new version materializes. 

And yes, the disparity between the EB1 and E1DL is a bit depressing. I mean...we know that the current optics work with OSRAM and XP-G2 emitters. 

I don't give two hoots about maximum throw, but I would like more efficiency.



880arm said:


> The latest EB1 appears to use the same emitter as the first generation versions. I posted a crummy photo over in the EB1 Review thread but it at least shows the relative sizes of the emitters.
> 
> However, I wouldn't be surprised at all if SureFire switches the EB1 over to the same setup as the E1DL. It's unlike them to have such similar packages with completely different LEDs and/or drivers. But who knows? :shrug:





Robin24k said:


> Maybe marketing got ahead...200 lumens / 6,400 candela = 500 lumens / 16,000 candela, suggesting that the EB1 should/would use the same LED as the EB2.


----------



## vernSL

I was just looking at purchasing a second EB1 in silver, but now I'm debating whether to wait to see if a new version is released soon.


----------



## Lodogg2221

I was all set to buy one too, in tactical flavor, but now Im not sure. I want an older one if I get one, with the smaller hotspot....or do I? LOL!

Id get the E1D, but not a fan of the teeth on the head of that small a light. It looks pretty good, but carry would be something else Id think....my E1B used to get sort of tangled up in my pocket, but if it had teeth, it would have left marks. No such trouble with my LX2, and hopefully not with the just ordered E2D Ultra. 

Anyway, I like the single cell light idea, and the flatter regulation (as it appears to have anyway) of the E1D looks great, as does the lower low, but Im still on the fence. Had it not come out, Id have a EB1 in tan, which is what I almost ordered last night. Oh well. Guess Ill wait and see whats next.


----------



## tongkang

Both of my gen1 EB1 and EB1T still throw like a champ with [email protected] 2.89V..and it will outthrow any of my others SF TIR200lumens like no tomorrow with IMR inside


----------



## cland72

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

Has anyone confirmed that using a EB1-T head on a E1B body/tailcap works, and results in single mode/high mode only?

I'm wondering if it would be a poor man's version of a Scout M300B.


----------



## Robin24k

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

It depends on firmware, the older version will be high/low.


----------



## WT101

Hey guys, I just received my EB1T in silver today via Amazon. It appears I've been mislead in my brief research leading up to my decision to purchase it.

I was interested in the TIR optics because from more than one place I've read that it was a something of a supreme, completely artifact free beam. Mine isn't and further research after the fact tells me that it isn't even supposed to be as clean and smooth as what you'll get from a non-TIR with an OP reflector.

The hotspot has that "comet tail" seen on Mags, particularly when you focus it to a spot. It's not drastic like on my Mag 4D... more like one half of the spot is slightly fuzzy along the edge. The spill is also evenly divided by two distinct rings or depending on how you look at it, only one ring; the ring immediately around the hotspot has a slight purplish hue ( I actually appreciate that) and around that is just the rest of the spill with no distinct hue I can make out.

I can live with all this because I've always wanted a TIR optic torch(and again, I really do appreciate that slight, pleasant purplish hue) and I really wanted to test out the "legendary" SureFire ruggedness. Their no hassle warranty is appealing also.

Which leads me to this... I believe I may have gotten a used or refurbished one because the clip on my silver model is black. From pics and the one review on YT, the silver model has a grey clip. Maybe even a very dark greyish. Mine is a solid black and is also all scratched up. This cannot be the original clip even if they did start putting black clips on their silver models. However, this doesn't bother me either because, incidentally, I like the way it looks.

Did anyone get a brand new silver EB1 with a black clip?

So, my question is whether or not I should go for an exchange. Does anyone have an EB1 with a perfectly spotless beam and spill? No lopsided fuzziness on the hotspot? No rings?
Like I said, I can live with what I've got. I've gotten over the white wall hunting thing after my first couple of torches a couple years back. But, I want to know if what I have is normal for a TIR lens or if it sounds like what I described is in fact a dud.


----------



## 880arm

:welcome:

As you found out, the TIR optics aren't artifact free but, for what it's worth, they are much less "ringy" than earlier versions. Your comments about the beam profile don't sound abnormal although I can't remember ever noticing any purple in the spill beam.

I don't own one of the silver EB1s but judging from photos around the 'net they have been sold with a gray clip like you describe, while it also appears some may have come with the black clip. The black clips will have surface scratches and/or scuffing, even when brand new, so that alone doesn't indicate there is anything wrong.


----------



## WT101

Ok, sounds good. I'm really diggin' the TIR lens. The throw on the 5 lumen low is something else. The distance at which I can adequately light stuff up is remarkable and having the high mode always immediately available is reassuring. This type of UI is just great. I really prefer it over anything else I've personally tried.

It's a keeper. :thumbsup:


----------



## JPA261

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

I am thinking about purchasing the Surefire eb1 clicky with the shroud sometime before the end of this year. 

I read here that there is a greenish tint with this light and was wondering if they corrected this problem? I also heard that when you tail stand this light there is a little wobble to it due to the button slightly protruding from the shrouded tailcap. Not sure if Surefire corrected this or plan on correcting it but just wondering from you guys/girls if you had this problem. Thanks.


----------



## recDNA

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

Is there any flashlight, the same size or smaller than eb1, that throws further on 1 x CR123a primary? Prefer to stick with primaries. Thanks! I think the eb1 out throws the lenslight mini?


----------



## ForrestChump

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

http://www.surefire.com/illuminatio...backup-sup-reg-sup-click-no-shroud-black.html


----------



## recDNA

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



ForrestChump said:


> http://www.surefire.com/illuminatio...backup-sup-reg-sup-click-no-shroud-black.html


Thanks but I see nothing there about lux only lumens. In any event I learned a while ago to trust cpf.members real life experiences over any manufacturers specs, even Surefire. The days of under claimed "Surefire lumens" are over.


----------



## ForrestChump

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



recDNA said:


> Thanks but I see nothing there about lux only lumens. In any event I learned a while ago to trust cpf.members real life experiences over any manufacturers specs, even Surefire. The days of under claimed "Surefire lumens" are over.



MAN. I try to do a 180 and throw SF a solid. I mean... it's XMAS. Peace and goodwill and all that stuff. Then....BAM!

*The Grinch. *



Been awhile my good friend. I have miss the bluntness. It's one of the more entertaining aspects of CPF.


----------



## FPSRelic

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



ForrestChump said:


> http://www.surefire.com/illuminatio...backup-sup-reg-sup-click-no-shroud-black.html



I've been waiting for this for a while. I'd expect that it's just using the same LED as the E1D. Sadly, there is no mention of the tactical switch version.


----------



## ForrestChump

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



FPSRelic said:


> I've been waiting for this for a while. I'd expect that it's just using the same LED as the E1D. Sadly, there is no mention of the tactical switch version.



It seems to me SF is doubling down on clickys more as they merge into the "civilian" market. Although, that doesn't guarantee it's not on it's way. Only a guess.


----------



## recDNA

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



ForrestChump said:


> MAN. I try to do a 180 and throw SF a solid. I mean... it's XMAS. Peace and goodwill and all that stuff. Then....BAM!
> 
> *The Grinch. *
> 
> 
> 
> Been awhile my good friend. I have miss the bluntness. It's one of the more entertaining aspects of CPF.


Look at it this way...as far as I know they still have the best throw of small 1 x CR123a lights. It would be nice if Malkoff could beat them. His led have better tint. Both Malkoff and Surefire have fantastic customer service and make tools designed to last a long time.

Oh I forgot...bah humbug!


----------



## ForrestChump

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



recDNA said:


> Look at it this way...as far as I know they still have the best throw of small 1 x CR123a lights. It would be nice if Malkoff could beat them. His led have better tint. Both Malkoff and Surefire have fantastic customer service and make tools designed to last a long time.
> 
> Oh I forgot...bah humbug!




I would imagine the lux would increase with the brightness if the reflector is the same. I don't see any significant changes in appearance and also don't believe this is that type of upgrade....to expensive for manufacturing costs....They can just swap the emitter maybe tweek the the guts a bit and make another gabillion for the extra 100 lumen bump... I bet this is it for the next 3-4 years on this light. I think they would be looking at a signifigant bump in revenue for the latest and greatest. At the rate they roll out new product from store to market recently....it's a healthy $ move. They also have fixed pricing now...again. Now I believe AMAZON will be the place to get it @ the best price. SF is smart like that. They have the expensive in house sales. Then the cheapest AMAZON offering.....Poor dealers....


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## recDNA

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

Does anyone know the old emitter and the new one? If the new emitter is bigger throw will suffer.


----------



## ForrestChump

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



recDNA said:


> Does anyone know the old emitter and the new one? If the new emitter is bigger throw will suffer.



Good point. Although, It will have to look a good bit brighter to warrant the "upgrade" lest SF would get many complaints of "the lights the same" especially from Joe Blow.

Not sure if it's in the wild yet. I have a strange feeling it will not be the E1D LED but something more neutral.....


----------



## IsaacL

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

Looking at runtime ratings, the new EB1 does not _appear _to share the same LED (XP-G2) as the E1D.

_E1D * Runtime per ANSI standard ** Runtime (at highest setting for multiple-output lights) until output drops below 50 lumens.

EB1 *Runtime until output drops below 10% of maximum output at this setting._

I'll be somewhat surprised if this turns out to be the case since Surefire is, by their own admission, downsizing in anticipation of losing several MIL contracts. It would make sense to see them cut any unessential/low profit margin lights from production. I'd also expect to see the same electronics, LED's, and optics across multiple lights to reduce cost. They are absolutely shifting to the civilian market. I think it's unfortunate, since their better products have been MIL/LEO lights, but I'm sure many people will line up to buy the Titan, Sidekick, 2211X, etc...


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## recDNA

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

What company is military using now?


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## ForrestChump

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



IsaacL said:


> Looking at runtime ratings, the new EB1 does not _appear _to share the same LED (XP-G2) as the E1D.
> _E1D * Runtime per ANSI standard ** Runtime (at highest setting for multiple-output lights) until output drops below 50 lumens.
> EB1 *Runtime until output drops below 10% of maximum output at this setting._
> I'll be somewhat surprised if this turns out to be the case since Surefire is, by their own admission,



So side by side the E1D is pumping more declining output for longer. Yeah? Also, very interesting press release. News to me, which is rather rare. I need to downsize my flashlight internet time... All things considered, I don't really care what parts or processes they use as long as they are focused on producing better reliability. It has to improve if they want to make long term plans. As soon as they reach the tipping point of _perceived_ reliability, thats all she wrote. Im also surprised to hear from Dr. Andrews. I was informed he is pretty much hands off now.

Good find IssacL. Also, I think you know where to shop should SF cease operations. 



recDNA said:


> What company is military using now?



Going of memory.... Military and various branches of armed forces choose from several manufacturers and models. There is no "set" brand that blankets the military for standard issue to my knowledge. The units that are left will be looking to save, flashlights i would imagine would be an easy way to cut the fat to a cheaper brand. Not only will they be loosing the contracts they have as the budget cuts come, but they will also be loosing the private individual military sales as manpower is reduced. Without getting too political...this is a great plan to downsize our armed forces in todays world climate. 

"and that's all I got to say about that." - Forrest


----------



## Kestrel

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



ForrestChump said:


> I would imagine the lux would increase with the brightness if the reflector is the same. I don't see any significant changes in appearance and also don't believe this is that type of upgrade....to expensive for manufacturing costs....They can just swap the emitter maybe tweek the the guts a bit and make another gabillion for the extra 100 lumen bump... I bet this is it for the next 3-4 years on this light. I think they would be looking at a signifigant bump in revenue for the latest and greatest. At the rate they roll out new product from store to market recently....it's a healthy $ move. They also have fixed pricing now...again. Now I believe AMAZON will be the place to get it @ the best price. SF is smart like that. They have the expensive in house sales. Then the cheapest AMAZON offering.....Poor dealers....


I confess to being rather impressed at the detailed analysis above considering that this post begins with citing the 'reflector' in the EB1 - this model series has had a TIR optic for at least the last half-dozen years.



ForrestChump said:


> [...] News to me, which is rather rare. I need to downsize my flashlight internet time...[...]
> Im also surprised to hear from Dr. Andrews. I was informed he is pretty much hands off now.


Who is Dr. Andrews ?? 



ForrestChump said:


> [...] Going of memory.... Military and various branches of armed forces choose from several manufacturers and models. There is no "set" brand that blankets the military for standard issue to my knowledge. The units that are left will be looking to save, flashlights i would imagine would be an easy way to cut the fat to a cheaper brand. Not only will they be loosing the contracts they have as the budget cuts come, but they will also be loosing the private individual military sales as manpower is reduced. Without getting too political...this is a great plan to downsize our armed forces in todays world climate.
> 
> "and that's all I got to say about that." - Forrest


Please desist with postings that go off-topic but then conclude with a statement that attempts to excuse the OT posting & close off the discussion.
Instead, if an off-topic discussion is desired, please do so in a separate thread and then the summary statements that attempt to close down the OT conversation can then be omitted.

Best regards,


----------



## leon2245

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

Has anyone noticed on sf's website, when you click accessories/led conversions, the 200l TIR ke1a is gone? Has me wondering if there will be a similarly upgraded 300l single-cell, single-mode led conversion. Unless I have a filter on or something I can't find, that's taking out everything else.

Looks like you can no longer replace the tailcap and get single high mode eb1 as with original version.


----------



## ForrestChump

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



nbp said:


> Forrest: Kestrel's reminder was nothing but polite, *especially as you have been asked to keep that in mind on several occasions already.* You are free to leave if you wish. If you choose to stay, please be mindful of the need to stay on topic, or start a new thread on your desired topic, per Kestrel's post. Thank you.
> 
> *PS: It's Dr. Matthews.*



The post read to me as condescending. Not the first time from staff. Definitely a first for Kestrel, he's a good dude.

You sent me one message with a happy face to be good. Im not even sure of the post or if any feathers were even ruffled. I do remeber the subject of the inquiry was rather benign. Either way I believe my response was "Yes Sir." The only other recent instance I can think of is that Bill recommended me not to post in the Titan thread. My reply was "Done". Yes, I am aware of the good doctors name, he is a hero of mine. Just remembered....Scouts24 post in the thread that shall not be mentioned as it's a disservice to the hobby.... OP directly insulted me and_ I was asked _not do what the uninformed and incorrect OP did to me. I think you guys do a fine job regardless. But Scout24 has me wrong (on that point) in that thread. I did however instantly omit 1 word that was a complete stretch to be considered an insult. To be fair, I did send him a PM of that post should anything need to be changed.




Kestrel said:


> I confess to being rather impressed at the detailed analysis above considering that this post begins with citing the *'reflector'* in the EB1 - this model series has had a *TIR optic for at least the last half-dozen years. ****
> 
> 
> Who is Dr.* Andrews ??  ****
> 
> 
> Please desist with postings that go off-topic* but then conclude with a statement that attempts to excuse the OT posting & close off the discussion. **** Instead, if an off-topic discussion is desired, please do so in a separate thread and then the summary statements that attempt to close down the OT conversation can then be omitted.
> 
> Best regards,





It's an absolute travesty the few mistypes I had in that post. Not to mention my super crafted one liner from a movie to stifle discussion. Looks like I need to be publicly patronized.  Kerstel ( my favorite mod that I've literally have had nothing but positive interactions with ) it's not even you but a cumulative biased culture that is blatantly obvious. This was just bad timing. I've reached that point. The thin skinned and misinformed that like to personally attack me are never held to the same standard ( research it ). They all have one thing in common. Imagine that. This isn't a forum, it's a sales add and last I recall I haven't seen any checks in the mail. I may not be the picture perfect poster, but I back up the info I share 100% It's a good thing I don't spend countless hours obtaining new information and even more to make sure of it's accuracy. Then I get spit on by people who have no idea what they are talking about or any inclination to use google before running their mouth. Yet any time a mod points out something that I might need to edit I do so almost instantaneously. How many times do I have to tell you people I don't do disrespect? It almost seems like a hobby for a minority of posters and some of the staff. Do us both a favor and make it permanent. Some things are just more important than simply being apart of a "forum". Thank you and the CPF family for your time and knowledge. I have indeed learned a lot and I do owe that to CPF and it's contributors. *Sincerely,

*- Forrest

:banned:


----------



## nbp

Forrest: Kestrel's reminder was nothing but polite, especially as you have been asked to keep that in mind on several occasions already. You are free to leave if you wish. If you choose to stay, please be mindful of the need to stay on topic, or start a new thread on your desired topic, per Kestrel's post. Thank you.

PS: It's Dr. Matthews.


----------



## ForrestChump

Omitted- distracting OT post.


----------



## nbp

:Scratches head:

Let's get back to the EB1, hey guys?


----------



## scout24

Only 'cuz you asked nicely...  Other than the obvious bezel differences, can anyone school me in the differences between the EB1 head and the E1D head? SF specs the high runtime as the same, but the E1D shows seven more hours runtime on low. Plus, it has the coolest SF tailcap since the SW01... Love the older design shrouded SF tails!


----------



## RobertMM

Somebody please tell us that the 300 lumen EB1 will come out with the two stage(press lightly for low, harder for high) switch as well.


----------



## recDNA

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

They're stupid. Should have been out for xmas


----------



## RobertMM

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

Well, would have been nice to have one to buy with the extra cash.


----------



## recDNA

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

BrightGuy has the current model on sale. Sure sign new one is coming. Nice deal if you want the 200 lumen model.


----------



## warpdrive

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

holy, the clicky black Eb1 has dropped in price a lot on amazon, pretty sweet deal for the 200lum version (around $111 now). Tempted to pick up another


----------



## Rob Babcock

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

I'm confused about the switches on the new one; they used to have two options, one with two levels that you had to click twice and another with the older, momentary-and-twist-for-constant. Is that gone now?


----------



## recDNA

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



Rob Babcock said:


> I'm confused about the switches on the new one; they used to have two options, one with two levels that you had to click twice and another with the older, momentary-and-twist-for-constant. Is that gone now?


The new model not out yet is a clicky but the tactical model could follow. No way to know. The bew clicky isn't even at the dealers yet.


----------



## leon2245

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



leon2245 said:


> Has anyone noticed on sf's website, when you click accessories/led conversions, the 200l TIR ke1a is gone? Has me wondering if there will be a similarly upgraded 300l single-cell, single-mode led conversion. Unless I have a filter on or something I can't find, that's taking out everything else.
> 
> *Looks like you can no longer replace the tailcap and get single high mode eb1 as with original version*.




Sorry to bump this from the last page, but am tempted by the current pricing & just want to make sure I understand correctly- no single mode version of this one or e1d, and the dual mode is all in the head now right? You can't swap the tailcap and get a single mode eb1 like some were doing much earlier in this thread?


----------



## recDNA

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

Wouldn't someone have to own one and try it to answer? Are the new eb1 even available for purchase?


----------



## leon2245

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



recDNA said:


> Wouldn't someone have to own one and try it to answer? Are the new eb1 even available for purchase?



yes, and no (I'm asking about the current version that's on sale now).


----------



## recDNA

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

200 lumen or 300 lumen model?


----------



## RobertMM

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

Anyone get their hands on the 300 lumen model yet?

Curious to see if it can take 4.2V like the E1DL.


----------



## Heck

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

It seems only SF's website has the 300 lumens one. I'm trying to get one but no dealers have them. Maybe we'll have more info after SHot Show.


----------



## recDNA

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



Heck said:


> It seems only SF's website has the 300 lumens one. I'm trying to get one but no dealers have them. Maybe we'll have more info after SHot Show.


Are we sure they even exist? I haven't seen any reviews.


----------



## sgt253

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

If it does come to fruition, I for one would like to see the tactical tailcap. Push a little for a little light, push a lot for a lot of light. My absolute favorite. I may be in the minority however. Time will tell.


----------



## recDNA

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*



sgt253 said:


> If it does come to fruition, I for one would like to see the tactical tailcap. Push a little for a little light, push a lot for a lot of light. My absolute favorite. I may be in the minority however. Time will tell.


I agree 100% In fact if it doesn't it is unlikely I will buy one unless throw is totally kick @%%


----------



## geeae85

I have the EB1 backup with the clicky tailcap. I want to get a momentary/twist cap for it. Anyone know where I can get one?


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## Cityus88

geeae85 said:


> I have the EB1 backup with the clicky tailcap. I want to get a momentary/twist cap for it. Anyone know where I can get one?


The eb1 tactical tail cap won't work with your light. The tactical version has a different body


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

Cityus88 said:


> The eb1 tactical tail cap won't work with your light. The tactical version has a different body



Are you sure?

I thought the EB1 tactical head and tailcap were different from the clicky but the body was the same.

And, are we talking about the 200 lumen EB1, not the newer 300 lumen model? And, you have the shrouded and unshrouded clickies in the early versions of the light.

I've certainly confused myself on this issue before. :thinking:


----------



## bykfixer

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> I thought the EB1 tactical head and tailcap were different from the clicky but the body was the same.
> 
> And, are we talking about the 200 lumen EB1, not the newer 300 lumen model? And, you have the shrouded and unshrouded clickies in the early versions of the light.
> 
> I've certainly confused myself on this issue before. :thinking:



I did some reading here shortly after my first EB1 purchase and saw apparently SureFire set up the light where either the clicky or the twisty could operate it and that the front end allows low/high or high/low.


----------



## Cityus88

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> I thought the EB1 tactical head and tailcap were different from the clicky but the body was the same.
> 
> And, are we talking about the 200 lumen EB1, not the newer 300 lumen model? And, you have the shrouded and unshrouded clickies in the early versions of the light.
> 
> I've certainly confused myself on this issue before. :thinking:


Actually you may be correct. Remembering now that I had tested with the E1L-A tailcap and that tailcap only had about half the threading (not enough to make contact) so it may work but will likely have the same result as cycling through the momentary function as the clicky - high - low back to high low.


----------



## Cityus88

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto

*Re: The SureFire EB1 Backup 200 Lumen Flashlight*

Gotta love that knurling on the E1L in the picture above. :thumbsup: My EB1's and EB2 are just a little too slick in my butterfingered hands.

Some strong resemblance in the CNC machining on those two lights in a couple of places, other areas are totally different.


----------

