# Home Defense



## Sedition (Sep 24, 2008)

Hey all. I've been running through the threads and have learned quite a bit. There was even a good thread on a 'bump-in-the-night' flashlights, but most of those suggestions were coupled with a firearm.

My wife will not allow a firearm in the house, so I want to know if there is a light that is insanely bright. Enough to stun someone for a short period of time (especially going from dark to bright). Galls has a 10 million candlepower searchlight that I figured might work, but also might be a hair unwieldly (but if it works, I'm cool with it). I tried to track down the Borealis 1050 lumens, but google just lists pages and pages of forum spam. Price won't be as much as a consideration if I can get sheer output.

I appreciate any advice that this fine community has to offer.


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## ConfederateScott (Sep 24, 2008)

Welcome to CPF. I'm sure you'll get some good advice. With all due respect, mine is to tell your wife that you are the husband and you'll make the decision pertaining to protecting yourself and your family. If she doesn't want to learn to shoot or handle a firearm then she doesn't have to. Then learn how to safely use and store a handgun if you don't already know and buy yourself a .38 revolver. A flashlight is not something you want to rely on for defense, especially if the potential threat might have a knife or gun of their own. Good luck.


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## Kato (Sep 24, 2008)

It's good that you're planning and thinking ahead. But please remember that a flashlight is just a tool, and should only be a part of a comprehensive plan.

Now that you've blinded the intruder for one to two seconds, what do you do now? If you're lucky, he'll run away. If you're unlucky, he'll charge you. If you're really unlucky, he'll pull out a gun and shoot at the light (with you directly behind it).

What are you going to do with that one to two second window of opportunity? Something to think about.


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## Sgt. LED (Sep 24, 2008)

http://www.blackbearflashlights.com/

Fill it with 2000maH Eneloops, not their cells! Their cells will be flat when you need them! Eneloops wont run quite as long but this is not a light for long burns, just a great flash at someone before you club them with your light! Eneloops don't self discharge like NiMh's will.

You can do it yourself cheaper but if you just wanna buy it and have fun without going into this hobby too much, this is a decent way to do it.


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## metlarules (Sep 24, 2008)

ConfederateScott said:


> Welcome to CPF. I'm sure you'll get some good advice. With all due respect, mine is to tell your wife that you are the husband and you'll make the decision pertaining to protecting yourself and your family. If she doesn't want to learn to shoot or handle a firearm then she doesn't have to. Then learn how to safely use and store a handgun if you don't already know and buy yourself a .38 revolver. A flashlight is not something you want to rely on for defense, especially if the potential threat might have a knife or gun of their own. Good luck.


 Good advice ConfederateScott.


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## Marduke (Sep 24, 2008)

Relying on light alone is foolish, and dangerous. A bright light only gets you a few seconds of advantage. That's it.

Do the right thing and get something which can actually be used for defense, not just as one component.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 24, 2008)

Yee old 870 boomstick is a pretty good idea...

A 2D M*g with a M*gcharger bulb holder and bulb and 6AA LSD NimH is a decent size decent bright light.

I have two and the first one that has a M2 MOP reflector is brighter and better of beam than the second one. Not sure why brighter, but darn sure why better beam!


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## PhantomPhoton (Sep 24, 2008)

ConfederateScott said:


> With all due respect, mine is to tell your wife that you are the husband and you'll make the decision pertaining to protecting yourself and your family.


:shakehead

Anyway...
There are a few good lights that could provide that second of distraction needed. But only given the proper situation. I'll echo the "then what?" Be sure you have proper training. Train, train, train so that whatever you train, it's second nature.

You can, as mentioned, modify a [email protected] You can Buy a Surefire M6 ($$$$ but probably worth every penny). A Wolf Eyes Raider is also a good high brightness no nonsense option.
Then there are LED options. A [email protected] with an Elektrolumens P7 (check the Marketplace forums manufacturer section). 
A Surefire 6P with a Malkoff M60 dropin (malkoffdevices.com) will provide enough instantaneous light to blind someone during a bump in the night.
Just keep to a simple light for this function... no fancy modes or any gimmicks, on (really bright) and off is all you want here.


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## Lee1959 (Sep 24, 2008)

I am sure I have seen in the past both flashlight/Taser and flashlight/mace or pepper spray combination units. If you really cannot have a firearm in the home you might look into the legality and possiblity of those units. Do not rely upon a light alone, even if you use the old golf iron.


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## StarHalo (Sep 24, 2008)

Someone who breaks into a house they know is occupied is already prepared to "deal" with the occupants.


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## SnWnMe (Sep 24, 2008)

After you buy your uberlight, get yourself a large dog.


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## ooE1Boo (Sep 24, 2008)

you can flash them with your bright light, and net gun em! on a serious note, prolly a good pepper spray and calling the cops, if guns are out of the equation. for me i'll flash em with light and if they are indeed an intruder then i'll flash them my glock 17.


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## NA8 (Sep 24, 2008)

Sedition said:


> My wife will not allow a firearm in the house, so...



I know it's popular to "fear" guns, but I'm always interested if they ever think about the consequences of that position and have a plan B.


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## Lane (Sep 24, 2008)

StarHalo said:


> Someone who breaks into a house they know is occupied is already prepared to "deal" with the occupants.


 
Agreed! :thumbsup:


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## metlarules (Sep 24, 2008)

StarHalo said:


> Someone who breaks into a house they know is occupied is already prepared to "deal" with the occupants.


 Most of the times with a gun too!!!!


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## Sedition (Sep 24, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> After you buy your uberlight, get yourself a large dog.


 
Heh, large dog. *check*


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## Sedition (Sep 24, 2008)

Thanks for the thought out replies here. I've wanted to have a firearm for some time and I suppose I am just looking for an unsuitable sub. I think it's time to bring up the discussion again.

Now as for lights, I think after reading all of the excitement on these forums, I'm still going to have to get one just for the joy of it.


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## maxa beam (Sep 24, 2008)

Since it'll be your first light you don't need anything over-exotic or powerful (100 lumens max should be enough) but it shoudl be very versatile. I recommend a Surefire U2 or Novatac 120P.


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## metlarules (Sep 24, 2008)

For something simple robust and bright I suggest an Inova t1(2008).
http://www.batteryjunction.com/2008-t1-inova.html


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## z96Cobra (Sep 24, 2008)

If you blast an intruder in the face with a bright light, you are going to be blinded also, especially if in a small hallway. They do make a light with a stun gun attached (Target even has one on their website) but you have to be "danger close" to use a stun gun. Why won't your wife allow a gun? 

Roger


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## GPB (Sep 24, 2008)

Perhaps its just the stigma of a handgun, and she'd be more tolerant of a shotgun ? There's lots of arguments about which is better for home defense and this isn't the place for that discussion, but a large gun isn't going to get snuck out of the house by the kids, can be loaded with shot that barely penetrates walls, and usually has less legal restrictions to ownership.....and you can mount a light on it !! ( I had to say something light related for fear of moderator retribution )


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## vtunderground (Sep 24, 2008)

z96Cobra said:


> If you blast an intruder in the face with a bright light, you are going to be blinded also, especially if in a small hallway.



Good advice. I've ruined my own night vision by turning on my Surefire L4 in a hallway at night... I can't imagine what a SF M6 would do!

IMHO, lights with very tight beams may not be the best for searching through the house at night, but ARE the best for blinding other people at night.


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## matrixshaman (Sep 24, 2008)

Assuming you don't win the gun debate with the wife take a look at a Tigerlight - plenty bright, big enough to clobber someone with if the built in pepper spray doesn't take them down. They are made for law enforcement but you can buy them off their web site. Next up is Guardian Angel Pepper Spray Jet Launcher. Works well at a distance and not much chance of you getting it blown back on yourself. Next is training (and possibly the most important) to now how to deal with an intrusion. The big dog is a good suggestion too.


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## TonkinWarrior (Sep 24, 2008)

Been There, Done That.

Grow a pair.

Divorce your wife now.


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## qwertyydude (Sep 25, 2008)

Well too bad the FDA has banned powerful laser pointers. I can guarantee you that my modded 75 mW green laser will painfully and permanently blind an intruder with just a quick flash in the eye. To make aiming easier just put a small lens in front of it, widens the beam. I know because even a split second of off angle reflection from a pane of glass was enough to blind me for 2 hours. Direct 75 mW laser to the eye will burn your retina faster than you can blink, in fact I showed it to my friend who's a graduate engineering student at MIT by popping baloons and blowing up cap gun caps, and he said it was more powerful than their optics laser lab and was probably very dangerous to play with. Blinding an intruder for life will certainly teach him a lesson and at least will keep him from ever stealing again, blind burglers are a really rare type so I've heard. Heck you're doing him a favor keeping him from committing theft again.


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## Wattnot (Sep 25, 2008)

TonkinWarrior said:


> Been There, Done That.
> 
> Grow a pair.
> 
> Divorce your wife now.


 
A lot of good advice here, including what I quoted. Tell her you'll work with her to make her more comfortable but she should not have veto power over it, unless you get veto power over her mother's visits !! They make nice quick action safes that will not allow access unless you grant it. Go for the quick action safe over a gun lock that goes on the gun. Those make it too slow to put the gun into action if you need it.

I also like the suggestion of the shotgun. It is probably better than a handgun in most cases, especially if you have little or no training with handguns. The only real down side is the barrel can be grabbed so don't play "what's that noise" in narrow hallways or you'll find yourself on the wrong end of it. 

When I first saw a strobe on a flashlight I thought . . . "wow, you could really mess someone up with that" but as I learned here, the effects are very temporary and very defeatable. If that's your only weapon, you're going to feel like that moment when the coyote runs past land put hasn't started falling yet.


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## PayBack (Sep 25, 2008)

If a gun's not an option, I'd go with an MTE P7 light on strobe, a hammer, body armour, and a german sheppard.

Though my preference would be a Mossburg M500 with light attachment, or a HK USP 45 with Weapon light/laser.


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## Monocrom (Sep 25, 2008)

Sedition said:


> Hey all. I've been running through the threads and have learned quite a bit. There was even a good thread on a 'bump-in-the-night' flashlights, but most of those suggestions were coupled with a firearm.


 
There's a good reason for that.



> My wife will not allow a firearm in the house, so I want to know if there is a light that is insanely bright. Enough to stun someone for a short period of time (especially going from dark to bright).


 
That depends on your definition of "short." One second is realistically the most you're likely to get. Hope you have a good plan on what your next move will be after the intruder recovers. My bump-in-the-night flashlights topic is also about investigating a possible issue. The subject of what to do if it turns out to be an intruder wasn't really covered. Except by those CPFers who own firearms.



> Galls has a 10 million candlepower searchlight that I figured might work, but also might be a hair unwieldly (but if it works, I'm cool with it).


 
Realistically, you will likely have to get physical with an intruder. A blast to the face with a powerful light _might _scare off an intruder. Those are not odds worth betting your life on. No light is powerful enough to neutralize an attacker, just by the beam of light it puts out.



> I tried to track down the Borealis 1050 lumens, but google just lists pages and pages of forum spam. Price won't be as much as a consideration if I can get sheer output.


 
That is not the type of light that is ideal for just anyone. You have to be very knowledgeable about the issues regarding its use. 



> I appreciate any advice that this fine community has to offer.


 
As someone with quite a bit of self-defense training, I strongly suggest abandoning the idea of stopping an intruder with just the output from an extremely bright light. The best you can hope for is to stun him for a second. The likelyhood he'll run off is extremely slim. You will likely have to get physical with him, if he's gotten that far into your home. If you honestly cannot convince your spouse to change her mind, get a guard dog (A real one. Not something cute and little. I mean something that can physically stop a violent home-invader from killing you and your family). 

Or, get a great home-security system; like ADT. Or, ideally, a dog and the system.


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 25, 2008)

Sedition said:


> ...My wife will not allow a firearm in the house, so I want to know if there is a light that is insanely bright. Enough to stun someone for a short period of time (especially going from dark to bright). Galls has a 10 million candlepower searchlight that I figured might work, but also might be a hair unwieldly (but if it works, I'm cool with it). I tried to track down the Borealis 1050 lumens, but google just lists pages and pages of forum spam. Price won't be as much as a consideration if I can get sheer output....


If yer coming from a defenseless position that's your business but what that really means is that if yon ever want to see your grand children you'll probably have to go in the *exact opposite direction* for your lighting needs. 

You don't want a bright light -- you want a dim light! You might as well go all the way and get some lights that won't be seen by Night Vision devices, either. I've been all of these places and done all of these things. As I've said before, I can hide better than anyone can shoot. I've tested my lights aganst the 82nd Airborne's Nth generation NV gear and they can't see it. If they can't see it -- forget everyone else. If you want to play *defense* without guns you're going to have to play a game that is *far more offensive* than what you are talking about. That sounds like a contradiction and sometimes it is. *"Dis ain't Disney Woild."*

*"Discretion is the better part of valor."*

A bright light without a gun does not sound like a good idea to me. It is fairly well known that bad people almost always seem to like bright, shiny things.

I've gone through total breakdown of society with bodies in the streets and every alphabet government group and renegade gang at war with each other and none of them were clever enough to figure out that I was even there and that was right here in the USA.

On the other hand if I totally skrewed up and blew my position I also had the bright lights you crave -- and guns. Oh yeah.


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## JasonC8301 (Sep 25, 2008)

Is there any specific reason why your wife will not allow a gun in the house? 

A lot of folks I encounter say guns are evil and they kill people. I say thats wrong. People kill people and a gun is just a tool. A gun needs someone to load/pull the trigger in order for it to do anything. The people that use guns are the evil ones. I then bring up the point of knives. Why can't a 8" kitchen knife be evil? They are easier to purchase, cheaper than most firearms (well my kitchen knives cost more than some of my guns), and don't go bang but in trained hands they can be just as evil/deadly as a gun.

As mentioned above an intruder is not going to talk you into giving him/her your valuables. He/she is prepared to take what they want however they want to. Sometimes robbers/burglars are armed, sometimes they are not. Some work alone but smart ones work in numbers.

I take it that either your wife has never been in an armed robbery/burglary before? Did she say the police are there to protect you from these situations? Ask her what she would want if a home invasion did happen, a cop on the phone 20 miles away or a gun in hand?


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## Cuso (Sep 25, 2008)

I don't think of a flashlight has a self-defense tool, but if you must have a very bright light I suggest something with a P7 or multi-emmiter set-up. If your other half doesn't like the idea of a firearm in the house, some education and exposure to the weapons may help. While you consider the idea of getting a firearm , one of these should offer some degree of protection in the meantime:

http://www.taser.com/pages/default.aspx

Glad you took your wife's opinion into consideration...A firearm posession is something you don't want to rush into. Good luck.


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## Meltdown (Sep 25, 2008)

if you blind someone with a laser you might as well just hand them your bank account. They will sooner or later find a lawyer and sue your pants off. better to shoot an intruder. my .02 cents.

and a good tac light on the shotgun might just make them change their mind if you are lucky. and if the shotgun has an eye-safe laser sight that can be a real deterrent as well. I've seen cops hold a punk at gun point and get no respect until one of them activated the laser at which point the punk hit the dirt and proceeded to urinate will crying. no kidding!


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## BlueBeam22 (Sep 25, 2008)

Welcome to CPF Sedition!

I highly recommend you get the "Vector *Power On Board HID" *rechargeable spotlight, which is commonly reffered to on CPF as the "POB HID".
I have a 10 million candlepower spotlight and the POB.
The Vector POB HID is twice as bright as the 10 million candlepower and illuminates objects much farther away (It light up objects up to 1 mile away). It also runs for over 1 hour at full brightness, whereas the 10 million only runs for 10 minutes at full brightness. The POB HID is so bright that it is disorienting to be blinded by, and I think it would be perfect for you. You can get them on eBay for under $50. It is the red and black one.


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## Monocrom (Sep 25, 2008)

A HID light such as the POB is not a good idea, inside a home. He's likely to stun himself, along with an intruder.... after the light fires up.


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## Icebreak (Sep 25, 2008)

Where did you read about the Borealis that did not have a hyperlink for the sales site? It's what many of us call a Mag85, a very popular incandescent modification aka HotWire.

Replying with consideration to the environment described a longer C cell Mag is another choice. They can be modified not only with incandescent lamps but with very powerful LED drop in modules. Not the Maglite modules but Malkoff Devices and Electrolumens as well as small run Modifiers' interations and a very few manufacturers. IMO, a big metal stick that can emit 500+ lumens can be your friend in some situations. Tigerlight, as has been mentioned, is not a bad choice at all but it wouldn't be my personal choice. It deseves a look see anyway.

I'll echo train, train, train and options, options, options. Progressive escalation options are important if the cable guy turns out to be an invader. If the event is a no doubt invasion my choice is deadly force with a firearm. If caught with a challenging distance between myself and several firearm options, I have other options available. In the environment described I'm guessing that chef knives are allowed. Edged weapon training can be a valuable skill when coupled with proper equipment.

The subject of this thread understandably has a history of inspired discussion sometimes containing high levels of heat. A google only search will reveal this using just the title of this thread. However, often these discussions will reveal a thing or two I didn't know. Many CandlePowerForums members including several that have already posted are experts in this area, some members have or have had professions that give them valuable insight into the subject. Some of these guys are the stuff the boogieman's nightmares are about.

It is difficult for many to folks to even imagine a home without firearms, myself included. So a good mental exersize is to think about what one does to stay safe while staying the night in a different environment.

What if you got free airline tickets, show tickets, casino comps and a week long stay at a fine resort and couldn't carry your favorite guns and blades? There are many things that can be done in that situation. Here's one: First thing even before unpacking... order a monster Porterhouse steak from room service then complain that it's a little tough. If you couldn't bring a large powerful flashlight you can go to a department store and buy at least a large Mag for about $20.00. Lots of useful items can be found during a Lowes/Walmart/Target trip.

I hope this thread goes well and that some new things can be learned.

Ah! I see that Wattnot, Payback (also top ten favorite movie), Monocrom, Sub_Umbra and Cuso have posted while I was typing. I always learn a little something from those guys. And it looks like JasonC8301 and I were thinking about the same page at the same time. Cool.


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## qwertyydude (Sep 25, 2008)

Those kind of criminal rights are absolutely ridiculous, shoot a guy and if he survives he goes to jail. If he's paralyzed from hitting his spine oh well. Shoot him in his eyes and he goes blind again oh well. Shine a laser and he all of a sudden has a right to sue?

What about if he charges you and you poke him in the eyes 3 stooges style does he have any right to sue because he is permanently blind? Does it change because you're using a tool for self defense, laser in this case? And if so why is the gun special?


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## BlueBeam22 (Sep 25, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> A HID light such as the POB is not a good idea, inside a home. He's likely to stun himself, along with an intruder.... after the light fires up.


 
I think you are right. The "Coleman Rechargeable 530 lumen CREE XR-E LED spotlight" would be a much better choice, as it is just as disorienting as the POB and runs for over 2 hours on one charge.

It wouldn't stun him the way the HID would since it is instantly at full brightness at the pull of the trigger switch, so it doesn't need time to start up. Once I blinded myself at close range with both the POB and Coleman and the POB was brighter, but amazingly the Coleman hurt more to look into.

I love my Coleman, it is almost 100% water proof, extremely rugged and durable, lightweight, super long runtime, and throws over 1/4 of a mile. I bought it at Sears for $60.


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## Hooked on Fenix (Sep 25, 2008)

Remember, a flashlight will not protect you against someone threatening your life (unless it's big enough to club the bad guy). The most you can hope for is to identify the threat, and blind them for a few seconds (then what?). Surprising a bad guy by blinding them requires a pocketable, instant on at full power light. A Fenix P3D Q5 will work (200 lumens on turbo). The strobe may help too. An H.I.D. requires a minute to get to full brightness and is too big to have on you when you are surprise attacked. What you really need is a weapon, or to become a weapon yourself. Take self-defense classes. Flashlights and weapons may not be on you at all times. When you know karate, you have a weapon on you at all times, yourself. I am a third degree black belt in Tang Soo Do and I know that if someone attacks me with a weapon, I don't need to have one myself. I can get theirs. If I'm attacked in my home, the assailant will wish I had a gun instead of an arsenal of blunt karated weapons. Just so you know, when I started karate, my mom didn't want me using sharp weapons like swords, knives, or sais. Instead, I trained with nunchuchu, escrima sticks, three sections staffs, etc (yes, these weapons are legal for me to have in my home, for training with, for demonstration, or display). Someone threatening my life in my house would most likely be severely beaten to death instead of shot. I may not even need the weapons. However, I hope it never comes to that. Self-defense often gives you less lethal options in case you want to be nicer to your potential murderer.


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## StarHalo (Sep 25, 2008)

Ideally, I'd go with these:






And this:


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## metlarules (Sep 25, 2008)

StarHalo said:


> Ideally, I'd go with these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Not living in California you won't!


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## StarHalo (Sep 25, 2008)

Eh, downloading music is illegal too..


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## Hooked on Fenix (Sep 25, 2008)

I wanted to add the types of training you should get. On the top of the list, Krav Maga gun defense. Also, join a style of karate with one steps (defenses against a single attack), take-downs including knife defense take-downs (one steps where you take the bad guy to the ground), breakaways (defenses against grabs), Hapkido (a combination of breakaways, takedowns, and joint/wrist locks put together),and sparring (controlled fighting while wearing padding). Tang Soo Do has these elements as do other styles. You will also want to take classes in how to use a gun. If you ever get a gun, it will do you more harm than good if you don't know how to use it safely. Let me tell you the first rule. Always assume the gun is loaded. Most gun accidents involve people forgetting that rule.


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## SnWnMe (Sep 25, 2008)

StarHalo said:


> Ideally, I'd go with these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
A pistol gripped shotgun looks cool but is very difficult to shoot unless you are willing to spend the time to master it (even then a decent user of a regular shotgun may still outshoot you).


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## SnWnMe (Sep 25, 2008)

StarHalo said:


> Eh, downloading music is illegal too..


 
Now you're implying (in a public forum no less!) that making a short barreled shotgun without the proper paperwork and fees is okay as long as you don't get caught.


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## allburger (Sep 25, 2008)

To not allow a gun in the house is foolish. Taking away guns from innocent people only disarms them. Tell your wife that the criminals wife's let them have guns in their house, and infact they are even allowed to carry them without a permit and into your house. 

I have plenty of guns, and I intend to use them if the situation ever arises. But a flashlight isn't going to stop someone. It's only going to make their target more obvious.

There are also plenty of less than lethal home defense options out there.

Rubber bullets, stun guns, pepper spray...check local laws and arm yourself.

It's better to have a gun and not need it than to not have a gun when you do need it!!!


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## metlarules (Sep 25, 2008)

StarHalo said:


> Eh, downloading music is illegal too..


 Sure is but I doubt you would get 20 years in the Federal pen for downloading music.


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## Winn R (Sep 25, 2008)

When seconds count the Police are only minutes away.


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## Beamhead (Sep 25, 2008)

Sedition, welcome to CPF. I'll keep the testosterone down in my post.
If your wife fears guns, take her on a date to the local range and let her fire a shotgun. People often fear that for which they have little experience. If she still refuses at that point respect her feelings and get a taser.

If she becomes more receptive to the thought of a gun in the house go with a shotgun, one with a home defense legal short barrel. It is a known fact that most intruders flee from simply hearing the sound of a shot gun being pumped. Plus as stated before you can put a light load in it that will fubar an intruder at point blank range without any collateral damage, IE: no injured or worse innocents on the other side of walls.

And never leave it loaded and unattended if there are children present.

Good luck.


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## glamisrat (Sep 25, 2008)

Alot of good adivce and suggestions in this thread. I would like to say that pepper spray can be a positive or negative in this situation. It may have zero effect on the intruder, while at the same time, it may devastate you. If you are looking into pepper spray you should be aware of this. You should also know how pepper spray will affect you, yes this means exposing yourself (having someone spray you). You may consider the pepper foam instead of spray.

Personally, pepper spray has a huge affect on me, not so much with the eye watering and nose running, but it really affects my breathing. If you spray someone, and are sensative yourself, you will be affected as well.

Know that pepper spray, even if it works, will almost never end the threat, unless the intruder, in his/her debilitated state, runs into a wall while trying to exit and knocks himself/herself out. If it works, it will disorient/distract/confuse the intruder, but IMHO there will still be a threat to you and your family. You will have to take this person down. With your hands, feet, large flashlight, baton, bat, you get the idea. You need to have something available to secure the intruder when/if you are able to take them down. Handcuffs, or flex cuffs. 

Obvioulsy call 911 as soon as possible, ideally prior to the confrontation, dont hang up, if you need to put the phone down with an open line, it will allow them to listen in and possibly pick up key information. 

Hopefully none of us ever faces such a situation, but in reality that is not likely. Even with training and preparation, it would still be a hell of an ordeal.

I am by far no expert, just wanted to chime in.

Stay safe everyone.


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## 270winchester (Sep 25, 2008)

on topic, if your wife is of the other camp, buy large dogs and get really good at axe throwing. I'm only half kidding.



metlarules said:


> Not living in California you won't!



there are ways. if the shotgun left the factory in that configuration and never made into a shotgun with shoulder stock, there is a way to own it as an AOW via coporation. Now the cost and permits, well, is why the sheriffs hold so much sway.

so you are right for the rest of us.


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## DM51 (Sep 25, 2008)

I would ask members to confine themselves to suggestions which are not only sensible but also, more importantly, lawful. qwertydude, your posts fail in both respects - it is plainly a very bad, impractical and illegal idea to advise anyone to try and blind an intruder with a laser. 

Please would members also bear in mind that what may be legal in some states/countries may be illegal in others.

Insofar as bright light can play a part in home defense, this thread may continue; but if it continues any further with non-light solutions, as seems unfortunately likely, it will close.


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## Beamhead (Sep 25, 2008)

Just a point of clarification DM51, are you saying that reasoned discussion of firearms as a solution will close this thread?

The OP seemed to be open to it.......



Sedition said:


> Thanks for the thought out replies here. _I've wanted to have a firearm for some time and I suppose I am just looking for an unsuitable sub. I think it's time to bring up the discussion again._
> 
> Now as for lights, I think after reading all of the excitement on these forums, I'm still going to have to get one just for the joy of it.


 
Emphasis added by me.


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## DM51 (Sep 25, 2008)

Good question - no, I'm not saying that, but I think this must remain within the context of lights and what assistance they can be. Firearms, large dogs, unarmed combat training and other solutions (where legal) may feature, but it should really be the question of what type of light might be of assistance, and how best it could be utilised in conjunction with these other methods.

I'm sure there have been other threads on this or similar topics, and right now I can't recall where they are or how long they lasted, but if they strayed too far off-topic I have no doubt they were closed. I am just asking members to be sensible here.


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## Beamhead (Sep 25, 2008)

Thank you and I understand your point.


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## Icebreak (Sep 25, 2008)

DM51 said:


> it should really be the question of what type of light might be of assistance, and how best it could be utilized *in conjunction* with these other methods.


bolding mine

IMHO this leaves a wide arena open for useful discussions. Thanks for the guidance.


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## qwertyydude (Sep 25, 2008)

The reason why I even bring up lasers, I'm not even making this up is that this technology is already developed and deployed. Here's an article printed a couple years ago. I can guarantee you the military's version is even more powerful than mine.

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may/18/world/fg-laser18


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## Till (Sep 25, 2008)

I have a flashlight for home defense.

Although it is mounted on the magazine tube of my Benelli.

Also have a G2Z to be paired with my SIG-Sauer.


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## DM51 (Sep 25, 2008)

qwertydude, your previous post had nothing whatever to do with military laser technology, and was thoroughly irresponsible.

You are new here, but I am warning you now that your ridiculous argument will earn you a suspension if you persist with it.


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## Monocrom (Sep 25, 2008)

DM51 said:


> Good question - no, I'm not saying that, but I think this must remain within the context of lights and what assistance they can be. Firearms, large dogs, unarmed combat training and other solutions (where legal) may feature, but it should really be the question of what type of light might be of assistance, and how best it could be utilised in conjunction with these other methods.


 
Best way to utilize a light when investigating a noise that may turn out to be an intruder is to have something that can throw a good amount of light, and still has plenty of sidespill. A Surefire M6 with an MN21 installed would be at the upper end. Something like the beam from a Fenix TK10 would be about as "dim" as I'd be comfortable with. (Wide hotspot, even wider spill beam, and very white output).



> I'm sure there have been other threads on this or similar topics, and right now I can't recall where they are or how long they lasted, but if they strayed too far off-topic I have no doubt they were closed. I am just asking members to be sensible here.


 
Here's one of them where I gave some stark, real-world, advice....

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/181968


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## nerdgineer (Sep 25, 2008)

NA8 said:


> I know it's popular to "fear" guns, but I'm always interested if they ever think about the consequences of that position and have a plan B.


Exactly correct: you need to think through what you're actually preparing for. 4 scenarios are possible: 1) it was actually nothing, 2) it is a timid intruder who will be scared off by you coming, 3) it is a not timid intruder who is not armed and not bigger/stronger than you, and 4) it is an armed and/or bigger/stronger than you intruder. Preparing for higher levels of threat *necessarily *requires accepting a higher cost for that preparation.

For level 1, any light will do. For level 2, any bright level will do. For level 3, you might get away with a good light and pepper spray, some type of stun gun, or a razor sharp 12" Bowie thonged to your wrist. If you really want to prepare for level 4 and want to keep the odds in your favor, a good gun and a good light are almost essential.

If you really want to prepare for level 4 *without *use of a gun (and there *are *responsibilities to having a gun which you'll need need to address), then you'll need a multi-layered *defensive *strategy. Do *not *go out exploring what the noise is. Have solid core bedroom, bathroom, and hall doors with deadbolts requiring keys to enter the rooms, and lock them every night. Have backup communications to the wired phone. Have some surveillance system and remote lighting for your house to know what's going on out there *without *exploring. Have whatever weapons you can all agree on (spray, stun, Bowie...) as a last ditch defense if all else fails; and rely on the cops to respond in time. 

Like I said, a lot of trouble. That said, most of us (myself included) are not prepared for scenario 4 so it's OK to not do that, as long as you've thought it through and made a conscious choice as opposed to giving yourself a nasty surprise. 

It's all a matter of balancing the probabilities of your specific situation.


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## StarHalo (Sep 25, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> Now you're implying (in a public forum no less!) that making a short barreled shotgun without the proper paperwork and fees is okay as long as you don't get caught.



Not quite, since the pictured shotgun is a conversion from one that originally had no buttstock, which brings us to..



270winchester said:


> there are ways. if the shotgun left the factory in that configuration and never made into a shotgun with shoulder stock, there is a way to own it as an AOW via coporation.



The shotgun as you see it as available as a finished product from a company who actually sells them online, so as long as you can gather the paperwork, you can order one from the comfort of your own home.



DM51 said:


> Insofar as bright light can play a part in home defense, this thread may continue



The goggles were technically a "light" solution, but as far as flashlights go, all the talk of giant, overpowered lights is a bit much - once you've reached the point of confrontation in a break-in scenario, both parties will have thoroughly dark-adjusted eyes (since thieves never turn a room light on), so any 120+ lumen high mode on your EDC will be plenty to give yourself at least a few moments (and anything bright enough to light the entire room will blind both parties). In my experience, even if you're in a well-lit area, getting hit squarely in the eyes with a high-output LED when you don't expect it is enough to blind you for a good twenty seconds or so..


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## IcantC (Sep 25, 2008)

Welcome to the forum and a few suggestions.

1) Either buy a M6 and replace bulb with the high bulb.

2) Build a ROP high from a [email protected] or [email protected] 85 or one of the brighter [email protected]. Keep in mind, shining the bad buy may compromise your nightvision as well. Also if the perp is in your house, once they are blided, well you need to do something. You can't blind them and expect them to fall to their knees. Just something to keep in mind. Also what if someone breaks in during the day or at night, but they turn on the lights. Not much a flashlight will do then.

3) Do you have children? Discuss a firearm and as mentioned, EDUCATE her. Many people think guns kill people. No, people with guns kill. Take her to the range and show her. A shotgun is a good home defense weapon, do not go for the pistol grip ones. Keep in mind, if you go with a gun, TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN! A gun is useless in the hands of an untrained person and usually winds up being used against them.

4) Tasers/Pepper spray. Both of these might be useless sometimes. If you miss with a taser, you need to reload and might not have time. Secondly some people on certain drugs might not feel a thing. Or if the perp is wearing thick clothes like a heavy jacket. As for pepperspray, samething, some people do not feel it and can/will fight right through it.

5) ALWAYS call 911 and let them know, better to have a false alarm then not call and be too late. IF you happen to be armed, let them know over the phone or where you are. This will avoid any bad surprises.

6) Invest in some cameras otherwise and as mentioned above, have a stronghold bedroom to hold you over until the police arrive.

Either way do not be misled by tactical brightness/strobe or whatever other features companies try to sell.


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## Mercaptan (Sep 25, 2008)

In regard to what IcantC said... yes. I'd skip the build a mag or whatever, just spring for the M6. Tough, reliable. 

I'd also skip the tasers/pepper spray. I'm not as much a fan of voltage and current as I am of 00 buck. 

But most importantly with what ICantC said is this. Burn this into your memory. Because you have a firearm does not make you equal or even stronger, unless you have mastered it through continual practice and taking educational courses on self-defense or offensive shotgun platforms.

Places like FrontSight, Magpul Dynamics and other local classes can help you with this. Check them out.



IcantC said:


> 3) Do you have children? Discuss a firearm and as mentioned, EDUCATE her. Many people think guns kill people. No, people with guns kill. Take her to the range and show her. A shotgun is a good home defense weapon, do not go for the pistol grip ones. Keep in mind, if you go with a gun, TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN! *A gun is useless in the hands of an untrained person and usually winds up being used against them.*


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## cslinger (Sep 25, 2008)

My take is this, but please understand I am not a ubertacticalSEALSWATGSG9 Operator. I am just a low speed high drag guy with a little experience here and there.

1-As long as you are not selling drugs, banging somebody else's wife, known to carry large amounts of cash or doing anything else that puts you in contact with a criminal element or a irrational pissed off person then the chances of you ever needing to resort to violence are quite low.

2-Just because those chances are low, doesn't mean I don't think every responsible household should have a firearm and the training to use it.

3-Lights are for lighting things up, identifying targets etc. They are not for defense.

4-If you absolutely want something for self defense but will not go the firearm route then I suggest a good large Pepper spray or taser. Be aware however both of these require training to use properly and have their own set of drawbacks. 

5-Get a yappy dog. They make great deterrents.

6-If you truly want a firearm then do not simply buy one for defense but also for the pleasure of shooting for fun. Sell it this way to your wife as, frankly God willing that will be all it is ever used for. Shooting for fun also means you will practice. Buying a gun and throwing it in a drawer and forgetting about it is not a good thing.

7-The best lights for criminal deterrent are motion lights outside. Most crooks will look for slower elk in the heard when they think they are detected.

8-Don't stress too much. The world is a scary place and stuff can and does happen very fast but really your chances are immensely greater of getting killed on your way to work then being murdered, unless you meet the criteria in number 1.

Chris


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## Patriot (Sep 25, 2008)

Get a new wife.......:laughing:  :nana: Ok, Please know that I'm just joking with ya. No offense intented 

Admittedly I haven't read this entire thread but only scanned it because it appears to have gotten tedious a couple of times.

The short answer is that no light will be able to protect you in the area of "Home Defense." A powerful light may be a deterrent but when it comes down to a life or death situation and your bluff is called, it could get ugly really quickly. If someone has broken into your house at night there is a good chance they are very bold or determined in the first place. The intruder's target might have more to do with you or your family personally than your property. By all means, please trying to protect your family with something more capable than a light. Even a Taser and a Pepper Fogger would be better than nothing.


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## Hitthespot (Sep 25, 2008)

If your wife absolutey refuses to use a lethal weapon to defend her home, herself and her family, then you are better off not showing them where you are with a flashlight. Anyone who would break into your house when you are home is extremely dangerous!

My personal opinion is, (if it's in my own home ) if someone needs to see a flash it will probably be the last flash they see.

Bill


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## Till (Sep 25, 2008)

Other than the muzzle flash.

I'm not planning to head down the marriage road yet, but I hope any potential future wife will share or at least understand the relationship between firearms and home/personal defense.


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## Sedition (Sep 25, 2008)

z96Cobra said:


> If you blast an intruder in the face with a bright light, you are going to be blinded also, especially if in a small hallway. They do make a light with a stun gun attached (Target even has one on their website) but you have to be "danger close" to use a stun gun. Why won't your wife allow a gun?
> 
> Roger


 
Two reasons:

One, she doesn't want to have a gun in the house because of our son. (Gun locks and such would be a solution).

Two, I have horrible sleeping issues. Sleepwalking and such. She doesn't want me to have a weapon in range when I can't quite get reality and dreams separated. 

I think #2 has been the winning argument.


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## prof (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm glad you're considering your wife's wishes. Consider including her in ALL of the training you undertake! Seriously. If you take self-defense classes, ask her to attend them with you. Have her learn to handle whatever defensive devices you purchase. Teach her to use your lights (and when NOT to use them). This will help her defend herself if it's necessary, and just might help her see the light in terms of other options (ie firearms).

Good luck. 

Now, about the light. No light is going to stop an intruder. It *might* get you a second or so delay. I would not count on this. Rather, the advise about hiding with a dim light is great. If you are unable to defend yourself, then hide. 

You did not say if there are children in the house. If there are, then the option of locking bedroom doors and hiding is not realistic. If there are children involved, see if they can be included in the training.

Considering this scenario now is a good idea. Let us know how it goes.


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## Sedition (Sep 25, 2008)

JasonC8301 said:


> Is there any specific reason why your wife will not allow a gun in the house?
> 
> A lot of folks I encounter say guns are evil and they kill people. I say thats wrong. People kill people and a gun is just a tool. A gun needs someone to load/pull the trigger in order for it to do anything. The people that use guns are the evil ones. I then bring up the point of knives. Why can't a 8" kitchen knife be evil? They are easier to purchase, cheaper than most firearms (well my kitchen knives cost more than some of my guns), and don't go bang but in trained hands they can be just as evil/deadly as a gun.
> 
> ...


 
Actually a few years back we did have someone attempt to break into our house while we were home. I threw open the side door with two kitchen knives in hand and chased him off. I would have rather have laid in wait for him to come in with a more suitable weapon, I assure you.


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## prof (Sep 25, 2008)

Sedition said:


> Two reasons:
> 
> One, she doesn't want to have a gun in the house because of our son. (Gun locks and such would be a solution).
> 
> ...



OK, there is a child in the house. See my previous post. Hiding won't work (I guess this depends on age). Your wife may be very wise, given your reason #2.


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## FlashSpyJ (Sep 25, 2008)

This topic is no topic I could discuss here in my country (Sweden). I agree that you cant "just have a light as a home defense tool", In my case I would have a bat or something else that you might find in a normal household here. Otherwise I might be in more trouble than the one braking in into my house...

I dont even have a light as a defense tool, I actually dont have anything at all since Im more afraid of getting into trouble with the law if I would hurt a burglary than I am of someone actually braking in. I guess that the situation is different in the US.

If I could have a gun to defense myself in my home, I would have chosen a light that was mounted either on my 12 gauge shot gun and/or on my something large caliber hand gun...


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## Lee1959 (Sep 25, 2008)

I might suggest taking up Irish stick fighting and buy a Blackthorn walking stick. I did this a few years ago after needing a cane for a short time after an injury, and it is a viable defense mechanism.


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## Hooked on Fenix (Sep 25, 2008)

I think we are overlooking one aspect of having a bright, tactical light. How do you know that the person is a threat if you can't see them first? I suggest still getting a bright handheld light. While it's true that any light will not stop a bad guy from harming you, you still can stun the person by blinding them long enough to determine whether they are friend or foe. I'd rather accidentally blind a friend who came to my house at an odd time of night than shoot them. You'll also be able to evaluate the threat and see if they have any weapons. Then you can shoot them. If you spot them with the light outside from a window inside, before they break in, it will buy you more time to call the cops. This is what a bump in the night light is really for, to see a threat coming. Lights are great for identifying problems at a distance. They're not good for solving problems at close range. Any light 100 lumens or over should work.


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## Beamhead (Sep 25, 2008)

Sedition said:


> Two reasons:
> 
> 
> Two, I have horrible sleeping issues. Sleepwalking and such. She doesn't want me to have a weapon in range when I can't quite get reality and dreams separated.
> ...


 
Agreed, and applaud your assuming responsibility for it.

Get a serious alarm system.


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## Chrontius (Sep 25, 2008)

Contrary to popular belief, such a light DOES exist!


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## SnWnMe (Sep 25, 2008)

StarHalo said:


> Not quite, since the pictured shotgun is a conversion from one that originally had no buttstock, which brings us to..


 
When someone said you can't have an SBR or AOW in Ca you replied downloading music is illegal also. At that post you were not using the shotgun to illustrate a point but rather just because something is illegal doesn't mean you don't engage in it.


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## StarHalo (Sep 25, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> When someone said you can't have an SBR or AOW in Ca you replied downloading music is illegal also. At that post you were not using the shotgun to illustrate a point but rather just because something is illegal doesn't mean you don't engage in it.



I don't not download music. Sometimes I speed on the highway, too. But again, my main point is that someone breaking into an occupied house is aware that it's occupied, and ideally you'd have a can't-miss-the-first-time firearm and the ability to see where/how the intruder cannot; If all you can manage is a flashlight, you probably already have the right one for the task.

I also recommend calm and reserve, not just in home invasion scenarios, but when reading the forum. :tinfoil:


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## firefly99 (Sep 26, 2008)

Using a bright light for home defense is nothing but a romantic, crazy excuse flashaholics use to justify the purchase of another flashlight. 

I do agree that a bright light will distract the bad guy and give a LEO or SWAT member a split second advantage. These weapon trained professional can then follow up with a loaded weapon if necessary.

For anyone who is really serious about home defense, they should have a security system installed in their homes connect to a remote 24hr monitoring station. Who will despatch some LEO to investigate if there is a breakin. Another cheaper option, would be to get a guard dog.

IMHO, defense should be about projecting an image of hardened target and deterring an intruder from trying to breach your security system.

It is too late to talk about defense when intruder is inside your home or in your bedroom. Should a break in ever occur, the thing to do would be to call 911 and hide until LEO arrives. Avoiding any confrontion with the intruder.

Agreed with Sub_Umbra said.


Sub_Umbra said:


> if yon ever want to see your grand children you'll probably have to go in the *exact opposite direction* for your lighting needs.
> 
> You don't want a bright light -- you want a dim light!
> 
> ...


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## ozner1991 (Sep 26, 2008)

i have my 2c mag modded to 3 cr123 as my bump in the night light. here in holland guns arent that frequent as in the usa so im pretty sure that when i light someone up and i charge first yelling loud that i can club the baddy  and if that doesnt work the 2 other people in my house will react to my warcry and come down with an bat and crowbar


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## Gator762 (Sep 26, 2008)

If the defense plan is a bright *** light, you need a better plan.

Hopefully you can convince your wife otherwise about some better protection. Even if the police can get to you 5 minutes after you manage to call 911, that can be 4 minutes and some odd seconds too late.

She's probably full of all the lies packaged as facts from the anti-gun groups. :shakehead


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 26, 2008)

Bight Light attached to a Boomstick baby!


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## NA8 (Sep 26, 2008)

firefly99 said:


> It is too late to talk about defense when intruder is inside your home or in your bedroom. Should a break in ever occur, the thing to do would be to call 911 and hide until LEO arrives. Avoiding any confrontion with the intruder.



I think the important thing is people should think about it and have a plan that includes more than a flashlight. After the South Central Riots back when LA was shown burning on TV for several days, and the LA Police said "We're not coming !"; I bought a nice stainless steel Mini-30 and enough ammo to last a few days. It's tucked away in the gun safe so it's not going to be on the evening news any time soon.

I suppose I should clarify that I got a pump shotgun long before that when I was working in a gun store one summer. The brother of a co-worker came in one day to buy some ammo. The night before seven punks broke into his 70 year old neighbor's apartment and beat the ^*((*&*)() out of him. The brother got his shotgun and was banging on the old man's front door and the sterling fellows beat feet and ran. I decided it might be prudent to invest in a 12 gauge. Yeah, I had a 1911 and I've shot gun matches with it, but pistols are just a little too sporting when it comes to hard core self defense. Don't get me wrong, hiding sounds good to me if it's on the menu. I just want to hide with my Mossberg 590.


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## stitch_paradox (Sep 27, 2008)

Lots of good posts here. Some are nonsense, but alot are really good advices. IMO, a flashlight or any other kind of light shouldn't be your only mean of defense against home invasion or any other physical attack. True it will stun and blind the attacker but that will only give you a few seconds to your advantage. What if the attacker has a gun? Then the light will be a disadvantage for you because the culprit will quickly know your location and which direction to shoot at. 

First of all the defensive plan of your home shouldn't begin inside the house. It should start outside. Don't give the intruder the chance to even break into the house. That's where good alarm and bright spot/flood lights come in. Install a reliable house alarm and some really bright motion sensor spot/flood light around your house. I know you can even install the lights congruent to your alarm so that it will flash outside at the same time when the alarm is blasting to alert the neighbors. Only a fool and stupid criminal would continue to enter a house blaring with loud horns and bright lights. 

Ok, this is not a perfect world. Let's say you did install the alarm and heaven forbid, someone in your household forgot to activate it one night and an intruder did manage to get it. What will a very bright flashlight do when the intruder has a gun? There is a recent incident here where a home intruder was able to control four people because he has a small gun. It gave one man an advantage against four people. I know it's really hard that your wife is against guns, many people are, my wife is also one of them .. before. Try to explain to her the importance of home defense, and go together to a firing range/ gun school so she can further understand and learn about gun's importance and safety. If she is still not convinced there are other alternatives, one would be a Taser.


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## GeneralTsao (Sep 27, 2008)

Don't bring a flashlight to a gun fight.


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## Lightraven (Sep 27, 2008)

Home invasions seem to follow 3 formats:

1. Invaders sneak in
2. Invaders break in and storm the house SWAT team style
3. Invaders knock on door and bluff their way in

The tactics to deal with such threats typically involves locks, dogs, alarms, motion sensing lights, security guards, weapons, etc.

The flashlight itself is primarily an adjunct to a weapon, since you wouldn't want to turn on a flashlight if your plan was to hide or escape undetected.

As always, tactics drive the gear train, not the other way around.


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## smflorkey (Sep 27, 2008)

qwertyydude said:


> Blinding an intruder for life will certainly teach him a lesson and at least will keep him from ever stealing again, blind burglers are a really rare type so I've heard. Heck you're doing him a favor keeping him from committing theft again.


Yes, you will probably end a career of burglary, but it is quite likely that burglar will sue you for this terrible injury. It is even likely the burglar -- the bad guy -- will win this suit and own your house, car and most of your income for the rest of your life. 

When I was going through the Ohio sheriff's academy (a few decades ago) there were several stories of LEOs who shot to wound, trying to be kinder than killing, and were sued from jail by the convicted felon for pain and suffering. You would think rational judges and juries would laugh this stuff out of court, but the truth is that these police departments were very glad they had good insurance when the felons won! 

It sounds cold, but there is a lot of truth to something a gunsmith told me once. "Dead men tell no lies."


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## greenLED (Sep 27, 2008)

GeneralTsao said:


> Don't bring a flashlight to a gun fight.


Actually, given that the majority of shootings occur under no or low light conditions, a flashlight is a great complimentary tool to have in a gun fight.

So, have a gun AND a light.

(unless, like the OP, you have good reasons not to)


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## Beamhead (Sep 27, 2008)

greenLED said:


> Actually, given that the majority of shootings occur under no or low light conditions, a flashlight is a great complimentary tool to have in a gun fight.
> 
> So, have a gun AND a light.
> 
> (unless, like the OP, you have good reasons not to)


 
If the condition is your dark home in the middle of the night, you are better off using your already dark adjusted eyes and the fact that you are familiar with the surroundings to your advantage over the intruder. In some cases especially if you are not armed a flashlight says hey look at me I'm right here. :shrug:


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## Icebreak (Sep 27, 2008)

In some situations tritium sites are a useful light source.


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## Monocrom (Sep 27, 2008)

Beamhead said:


> If the condition is your dark home in the middle of the night, you are better off using your already dark adjusted eyes and the fact that you are familiar with the surroundings to your advantage over the intruder. In some cases especially if you are not armed a flashlight says hey look at me I'm right here. :shrug:


 
I've noticed that folks are less familiar with their surroundings than they believe themselves to be, at least in the dark. A perfect example would be a comedy show where the husband is trying to sneak into the kitchen for a late-night snack. He has to be careful not to wake up his wife, the one who put him on a diet. Being familar with the layout of his home, and not wanting wifey to learn of his late-night "creeping," he goes at it with no light.... And then promptly steps on the family cat, stubs his big toe on the footstool he couldn't see. Then everyone in the audience laughs as the husband hops around on one foot, trying not to scream out in pain; otherwise his wife will wake up.

In a comedy, it's funny. With a possible intruder in your home, stumbling around in the dark is not a good tactic. Human memory just doesn't work that way. At night, you can't rely on your memory to instantly remind you where everything is located; so you don't trip over it. One way to demonstrate this, is to turn off the lights at night; and navigate through one's home or house. Home Sweet Home is going to feel more like an obstacle course.


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## qwertyydude (Sep 27, 2008)

Well then I guess being rational is the worst thing you could do for yourself if criminals have the right to sue, hell even some good Samaritan cases I've been seeing lately have backfired. Looks like I'm better off getting a shotgun by the bed cause a gun is kinda useless if it has a keyed and magnetic rfid trigger lock and is kept in a safe inside a closet behind the suits and next to the jewelry. And when witness to a crime, leave well enough alone since the victim is liable to sue for bungling the help up and the criminal is liable to sue for interfering. Is this seriously what American society has warped into?

And a flashlight, seriously isn't gonna do much else unless it's strapped to a gun or maybe a baseball bat, that might actually be a new use a 900 lumen light up baseball bat.


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## Beamhead (Sep 27, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> In a comedy, it's funny. With a possible intruder in your home, stumbling around in the dark is not a good tactic. Human memory just doesn't work that way. At night, you can't rely on your memory to instantly remind you where everything is located; so you don't trip over it. One way to demonstrate this, is to turn off the lights at night; and navigate through one's home or house. Home Sweet Home is going to feel more like an obstacle course.


 
I respectfully disagree in my case anyway, a sitcom and reality are poles apart, as for me I often navigate my home in the dark with no problem but then again I am always acutely aware of my surroundings due to experiences that have occurred during my life.
Others may not be as successful so I'll concede that.


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## madryan (Sep 27, 2008)

Ok...

A bit about my background so you can evaluate what I say...

I spent 4 years in the grunts (USMC, Golf 2/3) and as such did all sorts of weird stuff involving going into primarily dark buildings after people. In addition, 2 MEU-SOC floats and numerous "special" deployments and whatnot left me with a pretty good idea what actually works in "FISH" scenarios. Defense in depth is the key.

A bright light is good. I keep my Surefire L5 by the bed, as well as my Glock 19 loaded at all times.

My landscaping lacks significant cover for would be thieves to easily conceal themselves whilst breaking in. 

I have a large dog that's been trained in personal protection. He'll only bark at people, and he'll rip your arms off on command, or if you're trying to hurt myself or my wife. 

My windows are always locked, and my doors are always locked at night, or when my wife is home alone. In fact, I've gotten into the habit of just locking the door every time I come in.

The first obstacle you have to overcome if you're going to effectively protect yourself is your mindset. You absolutely must have the training to be able to react instantly, and you must not hesitate. That mindset includes a certain amount of vigilance on your part. 

Second, as others have mentioned, make your house into a hard target. A dog is probably the best way to do this. Alarm stickers are cheap and easy to get, but a dog will let you know something is wrong long before your alarm does. Don't ever punish your dog for barking.

Should a would be attacker get in, you have to be alerted to that fact before the dude kills you in your bed. See the dog/alarm part.

OK... So now the guy is in your house... Best thing to do is close and lock your bedroom door if possible. Keep a cell phone in your room every night as it's far too easy to disable a landline. Call 911 and shoot anyone who tries to break into the room. Obviously, if you've got kids that adds a whole new level of complexity. It really comes down to this... If you're going to seriously protect your family, you're going to need a firearm. I'm fairly well trained, and if you give me a couple of seconds of stunned stupor I can kill/disable an intruder with the bezel of my L5 provided I'm within 10 or so feet from the guy. The real ticket is to close at least one of your eyes when you shine your light in the dude's eyes, and once you shut off the light immediately move in a smooth arc towards your attacker. Don't move in a straigt line. Approach from your dominant side and use your flashlight as a striking tool. Hit the dude in the temple or if that's not possible, the side of the knee, or the jawbone works pretty well. I cannot stress enough that you have to move very fast and strike very hard for such techniques to work.

Regarding firearms...

Myth: Shotguns are nearly impossible to miss with...
Fact: The shot spreads so little at FISH ranges that you still have to aim. In fact, at 10m (that's about as big a room as you'll ever see in a typical house) your shot pattern is only a couple of inches at most.

Myth: Shotguns don't overpenetrate walls and whatnot...
Fact: Shotguns penetrate interior walls just fine, especially OO buck. If you must use a shotgun load it with #4 buck.

Shotguns and Carbines make lousy home defense weapons. They're fine if you're barricaded in your room or somesuch, but they're just too clumsy and unwieldy to move with well. Plus, they're incredibly loud. My M-4gery will rupture eardrums in a small closed space.

If you're serious about home defense, get youself a reliable automatic pistol that doesn't have any manual safeties. Also, make sure you can mount a light. Attach a Surefire X300 and keep the thing on your nightstand, or in a quick acces safe by the bed. Keep it loaded and teach everyone in the household how to use it. Don't buy a 1911 style .45, or any .45 for that matter. Just get a 9mm Glock and call it good. Load it with Cor-Bon Powerball and you're golden. 

When someone is trying to kill you your system is dumping incredible amounts of adrenalin into your bloodstream. Your fine motor skills go all to hell. If you have to load a firearm, or the weapon requires a complex manual of operation, you're going to get killed trying to deploy it. My personal favorite HD pistol is a Glock, but any high quality Double Action Only pistol will work. Sig makes several pistols that are very nice, as do other manufacturers. The Beretta 92 series are great guns as well. I've owned 4 glocks with a combined round count of well over 70k rounds and never had an issue that wasn't the result of grossly out of spec ammo.

The reason I like automatics for HD is primarily the ammo capacity and softer shooting characteristics. Reliability is more or less the same between my Glock 19 and a quality revolver.

That's it... Take it or leave it.


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## 270winchester (Sep 27, 2008)

Glocks are great HD guns. They are also generic enough that when it gets taken as evidence you won't miss it too much.


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## Gator762 (Sep 27, 2008)

Beamhead said:


> I respectfully disagree in my case anyway, a sitcom and reality are poles apart, as for me I often navigate my home in the dark with no problem but then again* I am always acutely aware of my surroundings due to experiences that have occurred during my life.*
> Others may not be as successful so I'll concede that.



What did you get a shine job while in prison? Cool. :thumbsup:


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## sappyg (Sep 27, 2008)

cslinger said:


> My take is this, but please understand I am not a ubertacticalSEALSWATGSG9 Operator. I am just a low speed high drag guy with a little experience here and there.
> 
> 1-As long as you are not selling drugs, banging somebody else's wife, known to carry large amounts of cash or doing anything else that puts you in contact with a criminal element or a irrational pissed off person then the chances of you ever needing to resort to violence are quite low.
> 
> ...


 
i like everything sclinger points out. this is very practical common sense advise. 
i often watch "cops" just to see the lights that the pros use. nearly to the man they use those big mag lights and with good reason i'm sure. i think your wife would feel comfortable with a light like this. i'm certain my wife would be willing to pound the daylights out of anyone with one of these. she usually has a p2d on her side of the bed and this post has got me thinking that i must have one of these. another light you might strongly consider would be the e2dl.

now, my wife does not care for firearms. nor does she understand why i like flashlights. however, i do not consult her when i purchase either. it is perhaps different for me. i have always had a firearm. i use to compete monthly and practice regularly and as such, i feel comfortable with them and she at least tolerates my choices. simply put, buying a firearm will not be an end all to your question nor will a light totally protect your family from harm. 

i think that you want a firearm. there are many forums that will help point you in the right direction.


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## greenLED (Sep 27, 2008)

Beamhead said:


> If the condition is your dark home in the middle of the night, you are better off using your already dark adjusted eyes and the fact that you are familiar with the surroundings to your advantage over the intruder. In some cases especially if you are not armed a flashlight says hey look at me I'm right here. :shrug:


Right you are, Bean. Just 'cuz you got a light and a gun doesn't mean you need to use them both. Actually, last time I went through "the house", the instructor I was with pointed out how little I had used my light while clearing rooms. My response was that I thought I could see what I needed to see at the time (whether that was my own perception or the actual truth, I'm not sure). It's all situation and person-dependent, I guess.


Good stuff, madryan.


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## TITAN1833 (Sep 27, 2008)

Home defense IMO should start at the perimeter,then permeating through out the home.Install panic bars or katy bars on the doors,security window blinds also help.

Now we have the perimeter secured we can work on defense inside the home,in case the perimeter is breached.
weapons strategically placed through out the home.Put in hidden places only you know.

I would not recommend high power flashlights i would use something with 50 lumen's.This shinned in someones eyes in short bursts would be better.

This way the intruder would not be able to follow the light,giving you time to get to your hardware.

But the best advice is,you know your home better than the intruder use it to your advantage.

There is no harm in a little planning,be safe.


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## firefly99 (Sep 27, 2008)

greenLED said:


> Actually, given that the majority of shootings occur under no or low light conditions, a flashlight is a great complimentary tool to have in a gun fight.
> 
> So, have a gun AND a light.



Using a bright light in conjunction with a gun is just a technique that will give the LEO a split second advantage.

Civilians without proper training will not be able to capitalize on the advantage even if they have both the gun and light. Not to mention being waken in the middle of the night and in a half awake state.

Seem that a lot of folks on this forum, think that a bright light alone is sufficient to overcome an intruder. IMHO, bringing a light to a gun fight is suicidal.


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## firefly99 (Sep 27, 2008)

NA8 said:


> After the South Central Riots back when LA was shown burning on TV for several days, and the LA Police said "We're not coming !"


It is very unfortunate such statement came from LA Police.


NA8 said:


> I suppose I should clarify that I got a pump shotgun long before that when I was working in a gun store one summer. The brother of a co-worker came in one day to buy some ammo. The night before seven punks broke into his 70 year old neighbor's apartment and beat the ^*((*&*)() out of him. The brother got his shotgun and was banging on the old man's front door and the sterling fellows beat feet and ran. I decided it might be prudent to invest in a 12 gauge. Yeah, I had a 1911 and I've shot gun matches with it, but pistols are just a little too sporting when it comes to hard core self defense. Don't get me wrong, hiding sounds good to me if it's on the menu. I just want to hide with my Mossberg 590.


It is one thing to own gun and practise shooting a few round at the firing range. It does not mean you are capable of pulling the trigger when the gun muzzle is pointing at a fellow human being.


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## Monocrom (Sep 27, 2008)

firefly99 said:


> It is one thing to own gun and practise shooting a few round at the firing range. It does not mean you are capable of pulling the trigger when the gun muzzle is pointing at a fellow human being.


 
And that's the main problem right there.... Too many folks think of violent intruders as being "fellow human beings." Unfortunately, so do the courts. One S.D. instructor who's name I can't recall, coined the phrase "otherhuman." And it definitely fits. Otherhuman will break into your home and not care if you are there. If your wife is there, otherhuman considers that to be a "fringe benefit" of his chosen line of work.

Don't think of them as fellow human beings. Considering their mentality, they're not like you and me or the rest of us.


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## Meltdown (Sep 27, 2008)

be careful with this concept of navigating in the dark. just where would you be going if there is an intruder in your house? are you going to start room clearing your own house SWAT-style? I surely hope not. It's an extraordinarily dangerous exploit even for trained persons.
best bet is to stay quietly barricaded in your bedroom with you and your wife on the same side of the bed. the last thing to break in the "gravest extreme" will be your bedroom door. at that point it's time to dump lead. 

if you need to use a light tactically then use it as a "flash" light. blink the light on to see whats' going on then immediately turn it off and move. but once again this should be unnecessary if you are barricaded in your bedroom.
make sure to have your cell phone in your bedroom with you. it's very easy for the scumbag to disable your phones by simply removing one from the cradle in another room. You won't want to be stuck with only a 400 lumen superlight to dial your cell phone. 
I have lights and guns all over my house. lots of options! but definitely not a kid safe dwelling


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 28, 2008)

Interesting.


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## fieldops (Sep 28, 2008)

Meltdown said:


> best bet is to stay quietly barricaded in your bedroom with you and your wife on the same side of the bed. the last thing to break in the "gravest extreme" will be your bedroom door. at that point it's time to dump lead.



Got that right. If somebody kicked in my bedroom door, the only light their going to see is muzzle flashes. At least the first one. The Daewoo rifle will be putting out shell casings to the wall so fast, you'd think it was hailing outside.

In all seriousness, I'd probably only need the first couple of rounds

and more likely the Sig 220


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## NA8 (Sep 28, 2008)

firefly99 said:


> It is one thing to own gun and practise shooting a few round at the firing range. It does not mean you are capable of pulling the trigger when the gun muzzle is pointing at a fellow human being.



Well, I guess if the situation is one serious enough to justify the legal use of lethal force, you better be capable of it. :grouphug:


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## 270winchester (Sep 28, 2008)

firefly99 said:


> It is very unfortunate such statement came from LA Police.
> 
> It is one thing to own gun and practise shooting a few round at the firing range. It does not mean you are capable of pulling the trigger when the gun muzzle is pointing at a fellow human being.



My family's safety and my fiance not getting assaulted is worth pulling the trigger. How much your family means to you is your business.


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## TITAN1833 (Sep 28, 2008)

NA8 said:


> Well, I guess if the situation is one serious enough to justify the legal use of lethal force, you better be capable of it. :grouphug:


let me put it this way,
I will not be offering tea and fairy cakes:devil:


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## TJx (Sep 28, 2008)

Sedition said:


> Thanks for the thought out replies here. I've wanted to have a firearm for some time and I suppose I am just looking for an unsuitable sub. I think it's time to bring up the discussion again.
> .



Apologies if something like this has already been suggested but you may want use something like this when you bring it up again:

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kasler-protection.html#4


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## Lightraven (Sep 28, 2008)

When the Los Angeles riots broke out, the L.A. Police did respond. I know an LAPD SWAT team guy that took sniper fire during the riots--they were out there. He has a funny story regarding the difference in combat terminology between the military and law enforcement.

My agency sent its SWAT team as did most in Southern California, including one retired coworker of mine. The Army National Guard deployed and my ROTC buddy begged to go with his unit (denied.) The Army 7th Light Infantry deployed from Fort Ord.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 28, 2008)

Lets see here. My house. Middle of the night. No one I know shows up in the middle of the night unless we have a prior plan to leave in the wee hours to go racing or some such.

So its the middle of the night and someone has come in and got the dogs all riled up. If the dogs don't scare him off, and it comes down to me and mine....

Him or me? Me all the way baby!

I carry a 9mm in my truck. Sometimes little Kara or little Brooklyn ride with me. You betcha if someone tries some chit with me in that situation I ain't giving up the kid or my truck.

You damn betcha I can pull the trigger on SUBhumans!

OP should get an 18" pump boom stick, barricade in the bedroom, and let lead fly when BG opens the door!


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## firefly99 (Sep 28, 2008)

270winchester said:


> My family's safety and my fiance not getting assaulted is worth pulling the trigger. How much your family means to you is your business.



Thank you for boasting or declaring on a public forum, you are able to pull trigger. 

Let hope when the moment arrives, you do not have cold feet.


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## ampdude (Sep 28, 2008)

Sedition said:


> Hey all. I've been running through the threads and have learned quite a bit. There was even a good thread on a 'bump-in-the-night' flashlights, but most of those suggestions were coupled with a firearm.
> 
> My wife will not allow a firearm in the house, so I want to know if there is a light that is insanely bright. Enough to stun someone for a short period of time (especially going from dark to bright). Galls has a 10 million candlepower searchlight that I figured might work, but also might be a hair unwieldly (but if it works, I'm cool with it). I tried to track down the Borealis 1050 lumens, but google just lists pages and pages of forum spam. Price won't be as much as a consideration if I can get sheer output.
> 
> I appreciate any advice that this fine community has to offer.




I have to recommend a real firearm. But in lieu of that, the Taser C2 is another option. It also has a built in LED flashlight and laser sight.


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## Till (Sep 28, 2008)

Better be sure you hit on the first shot with a Taser, however.


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## light man (Sep 28, 2008)

This is an interesting thread, but I'm hesitant to comment. All of this talk about shooting and killing is making me a little crazy. It's one thing to be aware, and able to defend oneself, but another to actually kill someone. I'm wondering how many here have actually had to confront an intruder in their home, and if so, what did you do.

I'm very fortunate that I never had to kill someone in defense of my home. I started shooting at about age 6. At 18, I was one of the top shooters in the Marine Corp. Spent a tour in Vietnam primarily in the triple canopy. Because of the dark conditions which exist in the jungle, my eyes became less important, relying on my hearing, my sense of smell, and my intuition as early warning devices. Once the red flags went off, my eyes then became the dominant means to locate the threat.

I've never owned a gun in civilian life for protection. I've never thought about what I would do if someone would break into my home, yet I know instinctively I would kill the intruder. Thank God I never had to go down that road, and I hope none of you ever have to either.


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## nitesky (Sep 28, 2008)

Good thoughts Light Man.


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## Fat Boy (Sep 28, 2008)

> HK USP 45 with Weapon light/laser.


+1

Tell your wife you decided on a nice flashlight and laser but unfortunately it came attached to a HK USP Compact 45
Here is the light equipment I recommend. It's the M6X Tactical Laser Illuminator and puts out 125 lumens. 
http://www.insightlights.com/products-m6x.htm

Off topic - could anyone tell me how to bump up the lumens out of this device?


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## Fat Boy (Sep 28, 2008)

> This is an interesting thread, but I'm hesitant to comment. All of this talk about shooting and killing is making me a little crazy. It's one thing to be aware, and able to defend oneself, but another to actually kill someone. I'm wondering how many here have actually had to confront an intruder in their home, and if so, what did you do.


agreed a gun is NOT a defense, its a killing machine that you use to kill. If you are not prepared to kill someone with it then DON"T have one, otherwise they will take it from you and kill you and all that is important to you with it.

If you are a bad man, desiring to harm that which I love, and have entered my home uninvited, you will die.


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## Lightraven (Sep 28, 2008)

I aimed my gun at a woman screaming and waving a carving knife around some kids at my apartment mailboxes. I ordered her to drop the knife and she did so instantly. If she hadn't, I would have shot her. I was thinking, "With a dirt berm backstop behind her, the background is clear and the kids aren't tall enough to be in the line of fire."

One of the guys in my agency went outside to confront guys trying to steal his car in his driveway. One thief shot at him and he returned fire, hitting at least one.

These home defense threads are tedious with testosterone and gun fetishism but have some value in encouraging people to defend themselves and their families and not rely entirely on police to save their bacon.


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## Monocrom (Sep 28, 2008)

Fat Boy said:


> agreed a gun is NOT a defense, its a killing machine that you use to kill. If you are not prepared to kill someone with it then DON"T have one, otherwise they will take it from you and kill you and all that is important to you with it.
> 
> If you are a bad man, desiring to harm that which I love, and have entered my home uninvited, you will die.


 
Little bit of legal advice, you can take it or ignore it completely; up to you. If a homeowner ends up killing an intruder, the investigating officers will always ask if the homeowner had intended to kill the intruder. The proper response is always, "I was just trying to *stop* him."

And that's the key thing. Even a partially retarded Prosecutor will jump all over any statement of trying to *kill *an intruder. (One drop of blood in the water, and here come the sharks). 

As far as guns being killing machines.... Oh boy, where to begin. 

Police officers, homeowners, and even folks with CCW permits have shot violent individuals; without the individual ending up 6 feet under. That stuff about _stopping _an attacker is not some legal-speak B.S. that Defense attorneys advise their clients to use. It actually takes place. I don't look at violent criminals to be the same as the average person on the street. If the violent rapist didn't want to get shot at by the responding officers, _maybe _he should have done something else with his spare time. 

Guns are not killing machines, they are inanimate objects. Just like knives, cars, beer bottles. Any of those objects can be used to inflict harm or even death on others. A gun is no different. It can be used by a violent low-life to kill someone. Or it can be used by a homeowner in order to stop an attacker from harming his loved ones. Some folks don't see a distinction between the two.... Then again, some folks don't see the difference between a decent human-being and one who genuinely enjoys hurting or killing others.


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## Fat Boy (Sep 28, 2008)

I am not too sure how you make a connection between a "machine" and an animate object. To me a machine is inanimate. 
 
I am also not too sure how you equate a bottle of beer with a gun on the killing scale. Would that also mean a nuclear weapon is the same as a bottle of beer? I suppose the bottle of beer in the right hands could kill someone as effectively as to gun or even a nuclear weapon, say someone like Chuck Norris, but other than him I don't see how it could get done. hmm doesn't seem to logical to me.
 
Thanks for the legal advice *IF* you are a prosecuting attorney, I am not, and therefore will refrain from giving legal advice or posing as an attorney. I will have to check this with the crew on Monday; I don't believe this is accurate though. I believe you stand on the belief that you, and your loved ones where in emanate life threatening danger from an intruder.


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## Monocrom (Sep 28, 2008)

Fat Boy said:


> I am not too sure how you make a connection between a "machine" and an animate object. To me a machine is inanimate.
> 
> I am also not too sure how you equate a bottle of beer with a gun on the killing scale. Would that also mean a nuclear weapon is the same as a bottle of beer? I suppose the bottle of beer in the right hands could kill someone as effectively as to gun or even a nuclear weapon, say someone like Chuck Norris, but other than him I don't see how it could get done. hmm doesn't seem to logical to me.
> 
> Thanks for the legal advice *IF* you are a prosecuting attorney, I am not, and therefore will refrain from giving legal advice or posing as an attorney. I will have to check this with the crew on Monday; I don't believe this is accurate though. I believe you stand on the belief that you, and your loved ones where in emanate life threatening danger from an intruder.


 
You don't have to be Chuck Norris to hit someone in the head with a glass beer bottle. Unlike in the movies, real beer bottles don't shatter instantly on impact. 

No, I'm not an attorney, nor did I say I was one. But I *do *know the criminal justice system in America. Not exactly what I'd call a fun time from my past, so I won't get into it. (I will say though that I'm not an ex-con). But yes, by all means; please consult with a real attorney who knows the criminal justice system. Saying that you wanted to stop an attacker, as opposed to agreeing you had intended to kill him, far better to say "stop."


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## BUZ (Sep 28, 2008)

If you against guns I would highly recommend the following:


1) A large German Shepard 

2) Get yourself a 1lb unit of fox labs 5.3 pepper spray (hotter then the fires of hell) http://www.defensedevices.com/foxlabonepou.html

3) A nice bright flashlight setup like a mag85 or handheld spotlight like in the 1-3 million candle power. 

I highly recommend a 12ga for someone that is not familiar with handguns, very hard to miss and the racking of a 12ga alone will make most intruders shat themself!


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## Nite (Sep 28, 2008)

OK great Lets say I have loaded Up a 20 Gauge shotgun with birdshot..mounted a P61 to the end....with tape switch

its loaded, theres no safety it must be cocked. Its a breech loader so only one shot.



I live alone so if I wake up in time im gonna win..as far as Im concerned.


Now how bout if a burglar just broke into my house and has my shotgun..and I come home

I know what would happen, and the many ways to stop that from ahppening, but Most people like me are too lazy...no one has mentioned coming home to a thief with your gun...and interrupting him.

Some people get killed by their own guns.


PS
I have deterred a strong arm robbery by two drunken teens with just alight, 320 lumens P91... I also like the idea of monting a weapon light onto my Kimber JPX jet projector with laser..a Less lethal pepper gun.

I dont carry a gun but I carry that JPX

I have adt so if my alarm is going off, or my door is kicked in telling cops theres a gun in the house and its loaded.


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## Nite (Sep 28, 2008)

anyone reading this thread or posting especially/.....read this

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/205676

vote


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## 270winchester (Sep 28, 2008)

gun locks and safes are there for a reason.

the "potential" of your gun being turned against you is a poor excuse to not be prepared, all you have to do is be a responsible owner. If you can't handle that then the rest of us are better off if you don't have a gun.



Nite said:


> Some people get killed by their own guns.
> 
> .


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## Monocrom (Sep 28, 2008)

*To: Nite ~*

If a single or double barrel shotgun is all that you have, it's better than nothing. A pump shotgun is better since you have more rounds. But under stress, some folks *do *actually forget to pump it. I've experienced this myself, but thankfully it was in a controlled situation. So training is key.

A gun is only one element to a good home security plan. An alarm system is far more important. That's what keeps a violent intruder from confronting you with your own gun, when you get home. He breaks in, an alarm goes off, the monitoring center notifies the cops. Then they become the ones confronting the guy at your home. He no longer has the element of surprise on his side. Many LEOs don't take chances. They won't just walk in and expect to have a friendly chat with a possibly armed intruder.

A good way to make sure he's not armed with your gun, when the cops arrive; is to get a gun-safe with a keypad. You can instantly open it if needed.... An intruder will need a couple of hours of trying to bust it open. No intruder is going to spend a couple of hours doing that. They want to get in & out with as much of your valuables, in a few minutes. 

If someone is too lazy to go through the necessary steps to safe-guard their firearms, then they should not own firearms. Invest in a good security system like ADT, and leave it at that. Safe-guard your gun properly, or don't own one. Either way, no need to worry about getting confronted by an intruder with your own gun pointed at you. 

I'll even go so far as to say that ADT by itself is a better idea than a gun, by itself.

*EDIT ~ *

270winchester beat me to it, but I can't type. So now you have two folks who have responded to the issue of one's own gun being turned against him.


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## Nite (Sep 28, 2008)

never lock a loaded gun, so I MUST UNLOAD AND LOCK everytime i leave the house? wow...thats alot of extra steps coming and going, but better than hiding it.?


and a gunsafe that opens quickly is expensive...but worth it.

if only i had the money.


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## Monocrom (Sep 28, 2008)

Nite said:


> never lock a loaded gun, so I MUST UNLOAD AND LOCK everytime i leave the house? wow...thats alot of extra steps coming and going, but better than hiding it.?


 
No doubt some will disagree with me, but I don't advise unloading a firearm. Secure it properly in a safe with a keypad. If your home has an alarm system, and a solid-core bedroom door with a good lock; unloading a firearm should not be needed. If one feels that an unloaded weapon is best, a revolver with a speedloader next to it, or a semi-auto handgun with a loaded magazine close by would be a better option than a shotgun.

Also, don't hide your guns. Experienced burglars know all of the common hiding places and tricks. No matter how clever you think you've hidden _any _item, chances are that a burglar has already encountered a similar hiding spot that was used by another homeowner. 




> and a gunsafe that opens quickly is expensive...but worth it.


 
Such safes can be pricey, but I agree that they're worth it. One way to save money is to get a smaller safe. One that can be bolted down in your bedroom closet. It won't hold a shotgun, but it will hold a handgun or two, along with a spare magazine or speedloader and even have a bit of room left over. 



> if only i had the money.


 
Easiest way to get a bit of extra money is with a 2nd job, or sell off a few items you don't use too often. Not very glamorous solutions, but they work. Once you have what's needed, you can ditch the 2nd job.


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## Nite (Sep 28, 2008)

ill keep the ammo in a safe...when not home...

i dont where that free gunlock keys is, gunlocks for kids not emergencies!

i dont have a handgun, yet. 

getting a safe for the shotgun..and I already have ADT!


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 30, 2008)

light man said:


> ...I'm wondering how many here have actually had to confront an intruder in their home, and if so, what did you do...


 I did once back in the late 70s. A psycho was sure no one was home and I heard him kick in a basement window -- in the afternoon. In fact I had enough time after I initially heard him that I went to a window and _actually saw him slither into my basement._ I grabbed a Colt 1911 .45 auto in Condition 1 and quietly waited until I heard his foot on the bottom step at which point I stepped into the doorway, brought the Colt down at him, dropped the safety and told him to freeze. Actually I used two words but freeze was one of them. He took another step and I convinced him to stop. He sat down on the steps and eventually went to jail.

I learned an interesting lesson that day. Always keep a junky, lame looking snubnosed, nickel plated 32 cal revolver laying around to give the police when they show up and demand a weapon from you before they cart the intruder away. Even if it's inoperable, on that day it will be worth far more to you than any $50 that a misguided gun buy back program might give you. 

*I wouldn't lie to the officer* but I *would* certainly slip the real gun out of sight and give him every other possible chance to assume that I was using the junky piece to hold the intruder when he walked in.


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## Burgess (Sep 30, 2008)

Very interesting thread here.


_


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 30, 2008)

Nite said:


> ...Some people get killed by their own guns...


That is true but I think it's irrelevant. Life is messy. It is also true that some Police officers are unfortunately killed with their own guns. The rest try to do their jobs in spite of that cruel fact. We just can't live a life where we avoid everything that is dangerous. People are killed by their own boats, cars, snow machines, kids and wives. Life is short...but it's W I D E.

Some Buddhists feel that not resisting evil is provocative and leads to the creation of a disproportionate amount of bad Karma in the world. I'm no Buddhist but I couldn't agree more. It is *because* we live in such an imperfect world that whoever is able must take at least some responsibility for his own security and that of his family. The Founding Fathers wrote as much. I am not responsible for the outcome but_ I am responsible for my effort._ That's the best that you can work towards in this world, IMO.


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## Lightraven (Sep 30, 2008)

Sub umbra, 

I think you learned the wrong lesson. If you had shot the dirtbag, which would be justified in any Castle doctrine state, you wouldn't be giving the police the wrong gun unless you wanted to go to jail. If you were not able to do a sleight of hand because of circumstances, such as away from home, you'd be stuck handing over the gun you used.

Instead, do what I do. Two is one, one is none. Sound familiar? Have a second handgun--a fully operational one that is the same as your primary (or in my case, a slightly smaller version). Give the police the gun you used. Once they are gone, you go to your gun lock box and retrieve your other handgun. Perfectly legal. Since many of my coworkers have shot bad guys and had their guns taken while they were still at the scene, I have given this a little thought.


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## NA8 (Sep 30, 2008)

Lightraven said:


> Have a second handgun--a fully operational one that is the same as your primary (or in my case, a slightly smaller version). Give the police the gun you used. Once they are gone, you go to your gun lock box and retrieve your other handgun. Perfectly legal. Since many of my coworkers have shot bad guys and had their guns taken while they were still at the scene, I have given this a little thought.



Words of wisdom. You wouldn't want to have just one flashlight.


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## IcantC (Sep 30, 2008)

Lightraven said:


> When the Los Angeles riots broke out, the L.A. Police did respond. I know an LAPD SWAT team guy that took sniper fire during the riots--they were out there. He has a funny story regarding the difference in combat terminology between the military and law enforcement.
> 
> My agency sent its SWAT team as did most in Southern California, including one retired coworker of mine. The Army National Guard deployed and my ROTC buddy begged to go with his unit (denied.) The Army 7th Light Infantry deployed from Fort Ord.


 

+1 they were out there and doing their job. Many officers were called from all over to help out. They didn't call quits and sit at home, many guys I knew were out working a few days straight keeping any eye out for looters and what not.




Meltdown said:


> be careful with this concept of navigating in the dark. just where would you be going if there is an intruder in your house? are you going to start room clearing your own house SWAT-style? I surely hope not. It's an extraordinarily dangerous exploit even for trained persons.
> best bet is to stay quietly barricaded in your bedroom with you and your wife on the same side of the bed. the last thing to break in the "gravest extreme" will be your bedroom door. at that point it's time to dump lead.
> 
> if you need to use a light tactically then use it as a "flash" light. blink the light on to see whats' going on then immediately turn it off and move. but once again this should be unnecessary if you are barricaded in your bedroom.
> ...


 

+1 one of the most dangerous things to do, and the pro's doing it know this as well. Not to mention if armed, once you shine them, they have a target to shoot right away. You really need to be "tactical" when shining your light and holding it away from your body when shining, to avoid taking shots in case person does fire.

I live in a nice place now, and while school was out, there were a lot of crimes being committed. They would break in during the wee hours of the morning, since many people are sleeping. They broke into a 68-72 year old womans house. She happened to be awake at 6am on Sunday. FYI this woman is old, frail and thin. Three guys were in her house, she just saw them, they stabbed her and then run out. Yes attacked a poor defenseless old lady. On top of that, she didn't even attempt to attack or do anything.

Once someone is in your house, make sure you "stop" them. You never know what they will do.


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 30, 2008)

Lightraven,

There's far more to this than just having only one gun. I had many.

Even thirty years ago I greatly resented the idea of having the local PD have any of the serial numbers of my firearms on record. The guns were purchased legally but *they* don't need the numbers. I will always resist giving them any unnecessary information which may be used against me either systemically by a corrupt or tyranical government or individually by self enterprising rogues within it. In the case of stopping the intruder I had violated no laws, I was in my own home and I still resent the idea of not only having my firearm confiscated but also having it's serial number enshrined for all time in some police file where it may be abused at any whim.

I am aware that there are many who feel that government and all of the individuals it is composed of is a harmless, benevolent lot that has never and will never pose a threat for a law abiding citizen. I would think that if that were true the world would be a much warmer, fuzzier place. Anyone may think what they like.

Three years ago, *right here in the USA* in post-K New Orleans if I flagged down a police officer and pointed at someone's dark, locked up house and told them that the owners were there and that they had a legally owned firearm, they would:

 Call for them to come out. Failing that they would
 Break down the door.
 They would handcuff them
 They would search their entire house
 They would confiscate any and all firearms found
 They would not feel the need to give reciepts for them
 Their work finished, they would remove the handcuffs and leave, leaving the home owner *with a broken door and no firearms to defend his loved ones with* in a lawless crisis that lasted for weeks.

I also do not like handing over a loaded weapon to anyone I do not personally know. As I pointed out to Nite, some police are killed with their own guns. Some police also shoot holes in their own roofs and inadvertantly shoot out their tire. A quick Google search will bear this out. Lest anyone think I am being unfair to police officers, I am not. They all come from the same resource pool -- humans -- and as such they are subject to all of the same variance and folly that the species as a whole is prone to.


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## IcantC (Sep 30, 2008)

Sub_Umbra said:


> That is true but I think it's irrelevant. Life is messy. It is also true that some Police officers are unfortunately killed with their own guns. The rest try to do their jobs in spite of that cruel fact. We just can't live a life where we avoid everything that is dangerous. People are killed by their own boats, cars, snow machines, kids and wives. Life is short...but it's W I D E.
> 
> Some Buddhists feel that not resisting evil is provocative and leads to the creation of a disproportionate amount of bad Karma in the world. I'm no Buddhist but I couldn't agree more. It is *because* we live in such an imperfect world that whoever is able must take at least some responsibility for his own security and that of his family. The Founding Fathers wrote as much. I am not responsible for the outcome but_ I am responsible for my effort._ That's the best that you can work towards in this world, IMO.


 
As peaceful as Buddhists are, they still were about protection. Which is evident from Shaolin martial arts. As peaceful as anyone is, they all advocate protectings yourself and the innocent.


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## IcantC (Sep 30, 2008)

Sub_Umbra said:


> Lightraven,
> 
> There's far more to this than just having only one gun. I had many.
> 
> ...


 

No disrepect to any fellow NOPD brothers, but we are talking about New Orleans... Need I say more? One city I would never visit or go to unless work took me there.


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 30, 2008)

IcantC said:


> No disrepect to any fellow NOPD brothers, but we are talking about New Orleans... Need I say more? One city I would never visit or go to unless work took me there.


That was a cheap shot. Let me tell you a little bit about New Orleans and civilization. We've been here a long time. Before the War Between the States blacks in New Orleans were *sending their kids to Paris for an education.* We had the first opera house in North America. I don't know where you live but if it's in the States there's a very good chance that we had Culture here when all they had where you live was *AGRI*culture.

Actually, I was talking about Humans in my post. Human behavior seems to usually run within a certain, broad range. It's just a matter of degree. If it makes you feel better to think that chaos or violence may only happen in New Orleans that's your decision. Try not to think about Cuba, or the Congo, or Eritrea, or Ethiopia, or Somalia, or Zimbabwe, or Tibet, or most of the CIS, or much of Latin America. There are many more but I have to go to the bank.

*All* countries, states and cities have one thing in common -- they are populated with humans. If humans behaved as well as some insist *we wouldn't even need* police -- or courts, or prisons, or even governments to protect us from other governments for that matter. For some reason those institutions seem to exist in every corner of the world.

Anyone may fool themselves into thinking that their family is perfectly safe because of where they are and that they will always remain safe there. History shows over and over again that that is a falacy. Even a cursory look at *current events* entirely puts the lie to the notion that bad things and bad people only happen in New Orleans.


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## IcantC (Sep 30, 2008)

Sub_Umbra said:


> That was a cheap shot. Let me tell you a little bit about New Orleans and civilization. We've been here a long time. Before the War Between the States blacks in New Orleans were *sending their kids to Paris for an education.* We had the first opera house in North America. I don't know where you live but if it's in the States there's a very good chance that we had Culture here when all they had where you live was *AGRI*culture.
> 
> Actually, I was talking about Humans in my post. Human behavior seems to usually run within a certain, broad range. It's just a matter of degree. If it makes you feel better to think that chaos or violence may only happen in New Orleans that's your decision. Try not to think about Cuba, or the Congo, or Eritrea, or Ethiopia, or Somalia, or Zimbabwe, or Tibet, or most of the CIS, or much of Latin America. There are many more but I have to go to the bank.
> 
> ...


 

I never diagreed with your first post, nor was I trying to take cheap shots . Sorry if it came out that way. 

BTW who is the "we've" you are referring to?

I never implied I live in a crime free place or a safe place hahaha, I live in Chicago so that should answer that 

Not to mention I have been, traveled and lived in much worse places outside the US as well. But either way I digress as I am getting offtopic.

OP were you ever able to decide on a light?


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## DM51 (Sep 30, 2008)

I advised members earlier in this thread that reponses would need to remain within the context of using lights as a possible aid to home defense. I did not remind members that posts would need to remain civil and respectful, but I hoped that went without saying.
 
There have been some very good contributions, but also a few unfortunate ones which have strayed. The thread has run its course, so I’m closing it now.


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