# Wife can't stand fluorescent bulbs' "daylight" color, coiled shape



## Paul_in_Maryland (Dec 21, 2006)

Last weekend I decided that it's time to kiss goodbye to incandescent lightbulbs. As a start, I ordered about 20 compact fluorescent bulbs, 13W to 40W. About half are 2700K, the other half, 5000K to 6500K (daylight).

Long story short: She absolutely hates the look of the 5000K-6500K lighting. I must use them only in closets, the garage, and outdoors. 

I explained to her that the lighting she hates is the color of sunlight; she's been using warmish tungsten lamps so long, she's forgotten what natural lighting looks like. To no avail.

She also can't stand the bulbs' coiled shape. So wherever the bulb is visible, I must use a bulb short enough (and hence, less bright) to be out of sight. I've found only two compact fluorescents that share the globe shape of a tungsten bulb. One is a short 13W 2700K bulb from GE; the other is a 20W 2700K lamp that is too long for its intended use (in a chandelier).

Has anyone had a similar experience?


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## LED BriCK (Dec 21, 2006)

I wish I could learn to like the daylight color, but to me the warm incan is more cozy. I have found that if I use the CF's behind a lampshade and/or in indirect lighting situations, it's alot more acceptable.


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## turbodog (Dec 21, 2006)

Go down a little. Try some 4200K bulbs. There's a lot of difference between them and 5000+.

The trick is to change every single bulb in the entire house. The color will be consistent and she won't be able to tell.


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## MoonRise (Dec 21, 2006)

Like turbodog said, change all the bulbs. Or at least all the bulbs lighting up areas that can be seen at the same time.

As an example, if there are two lights in a room and you leave one as an incandescent and change the other to a 'daylight' CFL, then there will be a HUGE and visible difference in the color temperatures and the CRI between the two bulbs. Usually to the 'detriment' of the CFL.

Something else is to have enough light in the room.

Another thing is to check the CRI of the CFLs. I am becoming more picky about the CRI and now am generally not really happy with fluorescents unless the CRI is 90+.

And another thing is to give your eyes and brain a little bit of time to 'recalibrate' to the new light color. Especially if the person has looked at the 'scene' for a while, they have a memory of how it is 'supposed' to look. Give the brain a chance to recalibrate to the new color temperature and unless some incans are still giving light then the brain should adjust to the new color temperature. If multiple color temperature light sources are visible at once though, the brain really can't recalibrate the view.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 21, 2006)

It's amazing to me how people can get so used to the bad light from incandescents that when you try a more natural light they hate it. I'm just the opposite of your wife. I've hated incandescents even as a kid. I always wondered why they couldn't give a whiter light like the sun did. I think most kids have a natural revulsion towards incandescent light but like bad food they actually get used to it, even prefer it, as they are exposed to it enough. It may also be because as you get older you tend to spend less time outdoors under natural light, thus getting more used to artificial light. I remember even preferring being under the absolutely horrid cool-white fluorescents of the day to being under incandescent. I've been using fluorescents exclusively in any areas under my control for the last 25+ years, mostly linear tubes. A few years ago I started the changeover to T8s and full-spectrum 5000K tubes. These are as close to natural sunlight as you're going to get these days.

Note that there is a big difference between sunlight (5000K) and daylight (6500K). Maybe it's mainly the daylight that your wife hates. The big problem with daylight is you need a lot of light in a room before it looks normal. If you only have one bulb then it can look dreary, kind of like an overcast day. The sunlight bulbs look better at low lighting levels. There may also be a color rendering issue. Perhaps your wife may not like cheaper 5000K CFLs but would be OK with the full spectrum variety (although these are more money and harder to find).

I'll second turbodog's suggestion-increase the color temperature in small increments. Home Depot does sell 3500K "bright white" bulbs. These aren't as depressingly yellow as incandescent or 2700K CFLs. They might be something you can both live with. When they start to go, move up to 4100K and after that to 5000K. Or maybe light one room with 5000K now and tell your wife to spend a few hours a day there for a while. My guess is her eyeballs will eventually make the adjustment and she'll realize how bad incandescent really is. Like I said in the beginning, I just find stories like this amazing. My sister's the same way. She made a remark when she visited us two weeks ago about how she "feels like a plant" under fluorescent light.


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## Trashman (Dec 21, 2006)

I don't particularly care for the higher temperature, either. It ain't gonna kill me, but it's not my first choice. About her not liking the coil look--they also make CFLs in bulb shape (probably, just covered), though, they may not be available with the output you desire. I was able to sneak a couple of those in the bathroom without my mom noticing.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Dec 21, 2006)

Great answers, guys; very insightful.

I like the idea of using bulbs with a midway color temperature. 

I didn't realize that 5100K and 6500K are noticeably different. My first "white" fluoro was 6500, and I agree: to my eyes, it seemed closer to 9000K than to 5000K. I think the crop that arrived yesterday were all between 5100 and 5500K.

MoonRise, you make an interesting point: CRI (color rendering index?) matters, too. I think all my bulbs rate between 83 and 84 in CRI. The "grow" bulbs that rate in the 90s must be better, but they cost more than I was hoping to spend, and they yield lower efficiencies, on the order of 50 lumens per watt rather than the 65 to 75 I prefer (for bragging rights).

As for letting my wife get used to white light: She is not one to give one of my ideas a chance. To her, first impressions are everything. If she doesn't like it, it goes. Because I'm reasonable, I'm reverting to warmer bulbs...but I'll never go back to incandescents (except in my flashlights, where I'm a steadfast hotwire).


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## jtr1962 (Dec 21, 2006)

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> I didn't realize that 5100K and 6500K are noticeably different. My first "white" fluoro was 6500, and I agree: to my eyes, it seemed closer to 9000K than to 5000K. I think the crop that arrived yesterday were all between 5100 and 5500K.


The color temperature on a lot of these cheaper CFLs is very loosely controlled. This seems especially true of the daylight variety where it's not uncommon to find ones which are 8000K or higher. Now I love high color temperature lighting but even I find these to be way too blue.



> As for letting my wife get used to white light: She is not one to give one of my ideas a chance. To her, first impressions are everything. If she doesn't like it, it goes. Because I'm reasonable, I'm reverting to warmer bulbs...but I'll never go back to incandescents (except in my flashlights, where I'm a steadfast hotwire).


Well, you're a better man than me. I'm not married or even dating but if I were in a similar situation the wife would go, not the bulbs.  Seriously, no way am I going to let my eyeballs go out of calibration and endure constant headaches for anyone, including a wife or significant other. Then again, doubtless such a person would have been in my house many times before marrying me and sooner or later if their preferences were different than mine I would have heard some comment like "What is it with those damned harsh white fluorescents you like?" I think the problem here is many people work during the day, and _only_ see their homes lit up with artificial light. The get used to it looking a certain way and new lighting dramatically changes that look. Since I'm home most of the time, I know what the house looks like under natural daylight/sunlight. I strive to duplicate that look at night as well.

Just an observation, but I find it strange how some of the same people who complain vehemently about green-tinted Luxeons prefer to light their homes with strongly yellow-tinted light. Why is a yellow tint so much more acceptable to many than a green one or a blue one? I personally can't stand any color tint except for colored Christmas lights. It doesn't matter if the tint is purple, pink, yellow, blue, green, etc. Get too far off that 5000K to 5500K black body point and I'm not a happy camper.


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## yuandrew (Dec 21, 2006)

I guess a lot of us are used to "warm" color temperatures from incandescant lamps which may explain why most CFLs you buy are 2700K-3000K color temperature. For myself, I've seemed to have gotten very used to the "Cool White" most fluorescent lamps put out so the fluorescent lamps I normally use in my own bedroom are actually that color temperature plus a 5000K CFL in a desk lamp. At lower light levels; it does somewhat give a bluish-gray appearance but if you have enough lights on to make the area as bright as a classroom or workshop, it seems to help make it closer to what you get at noon on a overcast day.

As for the "swirly" appearance; you should try putting the bulbs where you won't see the CFL-spiral directly (Many of my CFLs are the older ones with U shaped tubes which are somewhat noticable where they stick out beyond lamp shades. CFLs with globes or diffusers over the fluorescent tubes will probably look better and help diffuse the light so it dosen't glare as much. They are harder to find; bare spirals seem to be more common now but they are avaliable. The first CFL I got, a Lights of America "The Bulb", that I purchased in 97 or 98 had a glass cover over the tubes to make it resemble an oversized incandescant bulb. My uncle liked that light since the glass cover helped diffuse the light so there was less glare from it compared to the bare tubed CFLs he had.

Home Depot recently switched it's "Commercial Electric" CFL branding to the "N:Vision" branding but the bulbs themselves still appear to be made by the same manufacturer. I just noticed that they color-code the packages to help identify the color temperatures; CFLs with Green packages would be around 2700K (Warm White) and Blue would be something like Daylight. Red was listed as "Bright White" and somewhere in between; I'm guessing around 3500K.


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## BVH (Dec 21, 2006)

I fully agree with JTR. I hated the 2700 and the 5000 were too stark. The Sylvania 13 Watt, 3500K, small twist lamp - I found it in the package that was entitled full spectrum or something similar and it has some rainbow coloring on part of it, is a fantastic color. When I work in my office and turn them on, I actually feel happier. I find the older I get, the more sunlight I crave and these lamps satisfy that craving indoors. It is close to actually being outside. Buy one and try it.


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## DM51 (Dec 22, 2006)

My wife is EXACTLY the same. She took an instant dislike to these bulbs and now there's nothing I will be able to do to change her mind. Maybe women are more sensitive to colour temperature indoors.

To be fair to them, there are a couple of features of these bulbs which are quite annoying. 

First, they definitely don't seem as powerful as they claim to be. They claim 20w fluor = 100w incan for brightness. Certaiinly doesn't seem that way (maybe because a lot of the power is going into the increased blue component of the spectrum?) 

Second, I don't know about the rest of you but the delay when you switch them on manages to catch me out every time, even after having had the bulb there for 6 months. For just that instant I wonder whether the power is out or the bulb has failed. Then it comes on and I mentally kick yourself that I forgot the delay. The other pain about the delay is that it is a complete giveaway that you've changed the bulb from incan, so the wife starts honking about it straightaway.

Bring on LED lighting, I say. From what I gather the technology isn't quite there yet, but no doubt it's coming.


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## pedalinbob (Dec 22, 2006)

LOL! The delay trips me up too...and, there is about a 60 second warm-up, which is a little odd. 
It is difficult to place fluoros everywhere, because we frequently turn some lights on and off...and I believe that CFL's don't like lots of cycling.

My wife didn't like it when I tried changing to fluorescents. We use the Reveals almost everywhere, except the garage and basement, where fluorescents are used.
I have some GE bulbs in the basement, and they are pretty incan-like.

We also use an 11w fluoro in the oven hood, which we leave on when we are going to be coming in late. It is a Lights of America, and it has a pretty ugly color rendering...but, it saves energy.

I am trying to convert our outdoor lights to fluorescent, but have run into a bunch of issues.
What is wrong with manufacturers (of photocells and photocell equipped fixtures)? Why do most of them use photocells which are incompatible with fluoros? For an extra few dollars, an appropriate photocell can be used which will allow much more flexibility.

Just an FYI, for those that are interested in placing photocell-controlled fluoros in outside fixtures:

Maxlite makes bulbs and photocell equipped fixtures. BUT, they do not use screw base bulbs. This is a downer for me. I like the idea of the flexibility of a screw base: in a pinch, I can get a bulb (incan or fluoro) anywhere.

Intermatic makes a photocell which works with fluorescents. NE200C. BUT...it is 6" long, so it will not likely fit into most fixtures. What were they thinking???

American Tack makes a "programmable" photocell which is compatible with fluoros. BUT! It has a timer, which can be programmed by holding your finger over the photocell...1hr through 12 hours.
Two problems here. 
1. This is nearly impossible to do when it is sitting 10" inside a wall mounted coach lantern.
2. 12 hrs is NOT long enough. In the winter, it is dark from 5pm to about 8am! WHAT were they thinking?!?!?

There are some other companies that make fluoro-friendly photocells (Don-Ell), but they are hard wired. I CAN do it...but it will require a bit of extra work...and, some are very expensive...and ugly. Wifey has veto power...


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## Phaserburn (Dec 22, 2006)

Hm. My wife likes the GE Daylight Fluoros, especially in our bedroom. The daylight color is less fatiguing, it seems. I still use incans in all locations where the light will be flipped on and off, like closets and the garage.


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## DM51 (Dec 22, 2006)

Phaserburn said:


> My wife likes the GE Daylight Fluoros, especially in our bedroom. The daylight color is less fatiguing, it seems.


You lucky dog, you. A wife who likes to be active in the bedroom. She must look good in daylight too, or she'd be using a dimmer ....


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## Phaserburn (Dec 22, 2006)

DM51 said:


> You lucky dog, you. A wife who likes to be active in the bedroom. She must look good in daylight too, or she'd be using a dimmer ....


 
I certainly think so! When warmer color temps are desired, we go low-tech... candles. Sometimes, they just can't be beat.


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## turbodog (Dec 22, 2006)

I've been through all this before and can save you guys some trouble.

Find some 4200k bulbs. This usually matches the 4' fluorescent bulbs in color. It is a nice white color (cool white) w/o being too harsh.

I doubt you will find them in retail locations. My retail experience is usually 2700, 3200, and 5000+.

The ones I bought, almost $250 worth, are instant on and don't have the annoying warm up problem common to these type bulbs.


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## picard (Dec 22, 2006)

that is bizarre. I used to incandescent lamps all my life until I switch to florescent daylight lamp. 

I realized that I have been living in the cave for too long. The new full spectrum daylight lamp is far superior to my old incandescent lamp. I love the new lamp. 

Your wife just have to get accustom to the new reality that the world of light isn't created with yellowish tint.  Your wife has been disconnected from the matrix now. She is seeing the real earth created by humans. :laughing::laughing:


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Dec 22, 2006)

turbodog said:


> I've been through all this before and can save you guys some trouble.
> 
> Find some 4200k bulbs. This usually matches the 4' fluorescent bulbs in color. It is a nice white color (cool white) w/o being too harsh.


Thanks! I'll look for these (on the Web).


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Dec 22, 2006)

picard said:


> Your wife just have to get accustom to the new reality that the world of light isn't created with yellowish tint.  Your wife has been disconnected from the matrix now. She is seeing the real earth created by humans. :laughing::laughing:


:lolsign:


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## Diesel_Bomber (Dec 22, 2006)

I'm so much more thankful for my wife after reading these posts. Of course, I had my house switched over to CFL's before she moved in...........

:buddies:


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## PhotonWrangler (Dec 22, 2006)

I hate the cold look of higher color temperature fluorescents also! Fleshtones look ghastly under those lamps and they present an overall "clinical" appearance to a room. They're ok for a workbench area but terrible for general home lighting IMO. I'll take lower output with warmer color rendering any day.


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## TedTheLed (Dec 23, 2006)

dimmable fluorescents will last through a brown-out--

3. Can I use a compact fluorescent light bulb with a dimmer switch?
4. Can I use a CFL in applications where I will be turning the lights on/off frequently?
5. Can I use a CFL in applications involving vibration such as a ceiling fan or garage door opener?
6. What should I do if I break a CFL bulb?
for the answers:

http://www.gelighting.com/na/business_lighting/faqs/cfl.htm#3

btw on Mythbusters the other day they hooked up al kinds of light bulbs and switched them off and on every two minutes. They all burned out within 6 weeks, except the LEDs..


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## iced_theater (Dec 23, 2006)

When I first put in my 6500K bulbs I didn't like them, they were way too blue in color. After a couple of days my eyes adjusted and I find the light to be much better for color rendition.


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## Martini (Dec 23, 2006)

I can see from both sides of the fence on this one. I like daylight a lot, _in the daytime_. I have this crazy notion of replacing all of my 6500k lights with tubular skylights, and only using artificial light at night. But at night, the lights can all be 2700k and I'll be happy (except in the kitchen, I need better slightly better CRI there). As for the spiral shape of most CFLs, I've always liked it. I remember just staring at my first CFL bulb years ago, thinking, "wow, it looks _so_ cool." I'm a nerd. 

I think you will find that most people are more comfortable with warm white lighting, and that your fascination with lighting technology has made you more receptive to the previously unfamiliar CT. I'm sure that is the case with me. But in the end, I recognize that we are wired to time our sleep cycles based on shorter wavelengths of light. The recently discovered third photoreceptor allows some blind people to adjust their circadian rhythms with blue light! Abolishing cold lighting on this premise is, of course, a conscious effort. There is another, more insidious reason for the general populace's negative reaction to high CTs.

It turns out that there is both a physiological and a psychological cause. The former is the well-understood Purkinje effect. The latter is related, although the extent of this relation and the number of other mitigating factors is unknown (or at least not yet agreed upon). In short, various researchers have found that people are most comfortable with lighting when its color temperature _and_ intensity fall within a certain range. The Kruithof Comfort Curve is a rough guide to this. This page gives a decent physical representation of the curve. As you can see, the warmer the light, the less necessary to create a comfortable environment. As you increase the color temperature, you must also increase the intensity of the light to maintain the same comfort level. Just as warm light at a very high intensity seems unnatural, cold light at low intensity can be a strange, even uncomfortable, sensation. In college, I used to light my dorm room late at night with a single 13w 6500k CFL. One of my friends told me that it made my room look like a mad scientist's laboratory. I thought it was just the gutted electronics everywhere. :shrug:

For many people, artifical lighting is the _only_ lighting they see most of the time. In this case, there is rarely sufficient light to make high CTs comfortable. Where there is ample daylight, however, you will find that a few cold fluorescent lights go practically unnoticed. With proper levels of illumination, I think you will find that even mixing CTs is possible without offending the other dwellers (it has worked for me, anyway). It's something to try, anyway.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 23, 2006)

Martini said:


> As you increase the color temperature, you must also increase the intensity of the light to maintain the same comfort level. Just as warm light at a very high intensity seems unnatural, cold light at low intensity can be a strange, even uncomfortable, sensation.


This is certainly true, but given the efficiency of today's fluorescents there's really no reason homes have to be lit like caves. For example, I have a 4x32W T8s in my 10'x11' bedroom. That's roughly 10,000 lumens accounting for fixture losses and ballast drive levels, or close to 100 lm/ft². Power input is only about 111 watts, or not much more than the typical 100 watt incandescent used to typically light such a room, yet overall light level is easily 10 times as much (remember that the shades and indirect lighting of incandescent table lamps easily reduce the light output by half). High color temperatures look perfectly natural here. Fact is for health and visual reasons we really should aim for at least 50 lumens per square foot, not the 3 to 10 you typically see in many homes. With more efficient LED lighting on the horizon it will only get easier to light homes brightly and still save energy. It's a known fact that people get depressed if they're not exposed to sunlight or something similar. Lighting homes brightly with high-color temperature lighting can help alleviate this problem. Using a single 13 watt CFL or 60 watt incandescent in an average size room might be fine as a night light but it's a joke for regular lighting. People will actually try to read in rooms lit like that, and then complain of eyestrain.

Another factor is placement of lighting. Table lamps give a _very_ unnatural light. You have both a point source and upwards facing shadows. This is unlike anything you'll encounter in nature. Chandeliers aren't much better. The best lighting is as close to the ceiling as possible, and as diffuse as possible, to duplicate skylight. Luminous ceiling tiles would be ideal. One or more fluorescent fixtures with 4 foot or 8 foot tubes is almost as good. The ultimate test to see if lighting is properly distributed is to hold a pen or pencil vertical on a desk. There should be no shadows. Given the combination of poor light distribution, low light levels, and low color temperature in most homes it's not surprising people get eyestrain, feel depressed, and have trouble sleeping. It's a shame that doctors aren't more aware of the contribution of lighting to overall health. Even worse is that people actually worry about the asthetics of a light source (i.e. the fixture has to be "pretty") thanks to the idiotic trends set by decorators. Actually, the fixture should be as unobtrusive as possible for best lighting, with the ideal being luminous ceiling tiles which is in essence no fixture at all.


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## 2xTrinity (Dec 23, 2006)

What I would reccomend instead of going to cool white is to pick a color temperature that is more moderate, such as 3500k. That's the temp I've used for CFLs being used as task lights -- which provides truer color, and much better contrast for reading or working than the old yellowish incandescent flood lamps they replaced, yet it still is a fairly warm color temp so it won't look too out of place compared to standard warm lighting

Right now I only like the 2700k fluorescent lamps that are lower wattage for use in hallway lights, or ambient lights, which goes along with the point already mentioned about warm looking better under low illumination levels.


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## Ken_McE (Dec 23, 2006)

To chip in my .02 cents worth:

Women tend to see colors better than men. It's an anatomical thing, they're not just being fussy about some imaginary difference. To them it's obvious. Harmony in the house is worth more than any light bulb. If you can gently persuade her over to the light side (as per some of the above) that's fine. If she's adamant, then just suck it up and put in Edison bulbs. Her being happy is more important than your being right. As a fallback postion, maybe she'd like the "Reveal" bulbs?? 
_
DM51:_
_First, they definitely don't seem as powerful as they claim to be. They claim 20w fluor = 100w incan for brightness. Certaiinly doesn't seem that way (maybe because a lot of the power is going into the increased blue component of the spectrum?)_

You need to approach the manufacturers claims with caution. They will lie H^H^H^ I mean exagerate if they think they can get away with it. I think the "no-name" manufacturers are the worst, because they have no reputation to lose. A twenty watt CFL is unlikely to compare with a one hundred watt incan, but they will say that it does. Then you wonder why it seems so dark in the hallway. Usually you can get around this by checking the output of the bulb in lumens and comparing to the incan. bulb in lumens.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Dec 23, 2006)

This has been the single most useful thread I've read in my three years in CPF! Everyone's point of view has been fascinating, valuable, and instructive. Thank you all.

Today I received four 20W (1280-lumen, 90-watt equivalent) compact fluorescent spiral lamps by LongStar. They are 5000K and billed as "day light, full spectrum." As luck would have it, my daughter's bathroom was due to have its four over-the-sink, diffused incans replaced.

Let me tell you, the lighting is absolutely like daylight! I couldn't tell where the sunlight coming through the window ended and the Longstar light began. I found myself smiling as though waking to a bright sun.

I'll let you know what my daughter thinks. I'm hoping my wife will warm to these lights. They've made me appreciate that there's more to consider when choosing a fluorescent than lumens per watt.

If the eBay listing is no longer available, here's the vendor's eBay store (Discount Bulbs).


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## Mark_Larson (Jan 25, 2007)

If I may dig up this old thread...

I think its very dependent on the person. I and my girlfriend both grew up with fluorescent lights being used in the living area and incandescent being used in the kitchen/bathrooms, and even now, incandescent really throws me off. We both prefer fluorescent light - 4100K with about 60-70 CRI is what you will find anywhere and we both vastly prefer it to the equivalent in incandescents. 5000K and 6500K is even better, with 6500K being the best *if* used properly - ie, it is the only lighting in the room. Otherwise, it looks very blue since most people tend to confuse the 2700K and below of incandescent bulbs with "white."

Even GE Reveal bulbs are too yellow - two 100W bulbs are not able to provide all the light i want, and I believe its because they're so yellow. Brightness + low color temperature doesn't mix. I think there's a lot of truth in jtr1962's post.

I have to take issue with Ken's post - i haven't read anything that suggests that females have superior color rendering abilities, and its just a sense of "follow the herd" which makes a lot of people want to have the same lighting as everyone else. People are used to a certain way of life, and abruptly changing that isn't going to work. I hope your wife likes the new bulbs, but even if not, you should put your foot down and tell her the advantages and work out a compromise which doesn't put your preferences (and bulbs!) in the toilet.


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## Ken_McE (Jan 25, 2007)

>Mark_Larson:

>I have to take issue with Ken's post - i haven't read anything that
>suggests that females have superior color rendering abilities

It's a matter of anatomy. There is only so much room inside of one human eye. That room gets divided between cones and rods. You want more rods, you cut back on cones and vice versa. Women tend to have more cones, the color sensitive cells. Men tend to have more rods, the low-light sensitive cells. This means women have the edge for seeing color and detail, and men have the edge for seeing in the dark.

If you compare the relative distribution of rods and cones for women as a whole with men as a whole, you will get two similar bell curves. The curves will overlap but have different peaks. You will get a few men with superior color vision and a few women with superior night vision. The odds however, are that the O.P.s wife sees color better than he does. There is probably a social component too, but I wouldn't know about that.


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## snakebite (Jan 26, 2007)

maybe my ladyfriend is odd.
i put 950 fluorescents in a 2x 2' fixture in my kitchen.
she remarked that foods looked so much nicer in my place than hers.
so now i get to install a similar fixture in her place.
i remember when $.99 cool white tubes made my chili look like vomit.


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## deuscoup (Jan 26, 2007)

> i remember when $.99 cool white tubes made my chili look like vomit.



Funny.

This is a great thread! Sticky, Sticky.

Paul, you might want to change those lights right before you go on vacation. Give the mind (and wife's eyes) some time to adjust. She may come back and not even notice them. But if you get caught trying to be sneaky, don't blame me.

I have recessed ceiling lights (spots toward the fireplace) and I am having a hard time finding a good solution without introducing a floor lamp. I don't want a floor lamp with a kiddo that is just about to start crawling. Maybe I'd like a wall sconce so there is nothing to knock down.


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## PhotonWrangler (Jan 27, 2007)

The very earliest fluorescent tubes were badly deficient in red. They made people look a ghastly green. Some office workers actually became ill from the weird color rendering. Fortunately they've gotten color rendering under control these days.


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## 2xTrinity (Jan 28, 2007)

PhotonWrangler said:


> The very earliest fluorescent tubes were badly deficient in red. They made people look a ghastly green. Some office workers actually became ill from the weird color rendering. Fortunately they've gotten color rendering under control these days.


Now crappy warm white compact fluorescents appear to have the opposite problem -- many tend to appear pink or reddish, and based on my analysis using an advanced spectrometer (an upside-down CD) they seem to have a huge spike of red, and green, with somewhat of a deficiency in yellow, and blue. My 3500k lights appear to have more "spikes" spaced closer together with more consistent intensity between them, as well as a lot better rendition of the blues, while still "appearing" warm.


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## Mark_Larson (Jan 29, 2007)

PhotonWrangler said:


> The very earliest fluorescent tubes were badly deficient in red. They made people look a ghastly green. Some office workers actually became ill from the weird color rendering. Fortunately they've gotten color rendering under control these days.


I have the opposite problem - with anything less than 150-200W incandescent in an average-sized room, I feel depressed and get headaches. I had two 100W Reveal bulbs and it still wasn't enough - I love bright white light, but bright yellow light will do in a pinch. I added two more 100W bulbs and am happy as a clam but sometimes I feel I could do with a couple more... oo:

Oh, and I _hate_ "warm-white" fluorescents - abhor them from the depths of my heart.


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## MacGyver (Jan 30, 2007)

When I met my fiance, she had one of those 300W halogen torchiere lamps in her livingroom that ran all evening 7 days a week 
I soon bought her a similar shaped floor lamp with a translucent glass shade & put in a 23W (100W equivalent) CF. Soft white, see explanation below.
Her response:"It's too bright."


She's almost but not quite as cheap as I am so I ran some numbers...
Every evening she ran the 300W torchiere (~6hrs) she could run the new lamp for 13 equivalent evenings for the same cost.

Suddenly the lamp was a great idea 

She's sold her house & moved in with me, almost everything here is CF or linear tube other than the fridge & stove lights.
She is very light sensitive & does not generally like 'cool white' colours as they hurt her eyes, but that comes mostly from the old 60hz T12 flicker.
So for now we run soft or warm white, but I don't mind.
I'm slowly introducing a few whiter colours due to what I've learned on this site, and no complaints yet. At least not colour related.
Bedroom & livingroom fixtures that had 2x60W were also 'too bright' with 2x13W (60W equivalents) CF's so they got 2x9W (40W equivalents) CF's and she's happy.
With 18W per room vs 120W, the power bill & I are happy too :twothumbs


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## bfg9000 (Jan 31, 2007)

Someone wants to make incandescent bulbs illegal in California. Hopefully this will at least lead to more CFL friendly photocells and such, similar to how trans-fat being illegal in some cities made companies reevaluate their use of trans-fats nationwide.


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## 2xTrinity (Jan 31, 2007)

bfg9000 said:


> Someone wants to make incandescent bulbs illegal in California. Hopefully this will at least lead to more CFL friendly photocells and such, similar to how trans-fat being illegal in some cities made companies reevaluate their use of trans-fats nationwide.


That is a bit ridiculous. I wouldn't mind if the issue was adding a small tax or surcharge to them (although with electricity at $0.16 kWh it seems like the operating cost alone should be enough, but I digress...) but either banning, or making them de facto illegal by placing a very huge tax on them (like what was proposed with the cigarette tax in CA) I don't believe is right, especially if people have legitimate reasons for usign them (Of course, you are right that one of those reasons is that most of the timer/photocells on the market only work with incandescent).


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## VidPro (Feb 1, 2007)

there is a way to make them look like yelowish florsescents for mere pennies.
go to the craft shop, and get some of that cellulose (type) stuff that they gift baskets in. comes in yelowish and goldish, and it will change a 1$ bulb into looking more incadescenty.


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## hizzo3 (Feb 1, 2007)

at first when i changed out our lighting, my g/f hated it. she is an interior designer, so i guess she knows what she is talking about.... but anyway, i put the daylight in the bedroom, and it took some getting used to, but now she likes it. in the bathroom, we have 5 lights, in 2 i put daylight, and in the remaining i put cool whites.... this way her make up isnt all funky (she was complaining about the daylights) I had to pull the daylights outta the office, i guess the CRI of the daylights suck, as it was hard to read and so on. in the kitchen we have can lights so i got some CFL spots, but it does take 60 seconds to get any useable light. just takes some getting used to.... but here is the plus side. electric bill came from 200-220 along with some other measures (computer going to sleep mode, turning the auto off feature on the tv and so on) brought the electric bill down to the 120-180's


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## Sub_Umbra (Feb 1, 2007)

I'm not very 'tint sensitive' but as old radio junkies Mrs Umbra and I both hate the RFI.


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## AndyTiedye (Feb 1, 2007)

I want to build some lamps with multiple LEDs, each with different tints
and each independently dimmable.


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## AndyTiedye (Feb 1, 2007)

Some fluorescent ballasts are so RF noisy that I don't see how they could possibly have passed Part 15.
I had one fluorescent torchiere that completely wiped out 40 meters in the house.
I'm converting that one to LEDs.


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## jar3ds (Feb 1, 2007)

i had warm CFL in my living room... after feeling depressed by it for too long I changed them out to FULL Spectrum CFL... now it is much happier and is absolutely better... 

daylight is a little different than full spectrum but its too bad your wife doesn't see the light


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## 2xTrinity (Feb 1, 2007)

> I want to build some lamps with multiple LEDs, each with different tints
> and each independently dimmable.


This is actually a fairly interesting idea. I know that when you dim an incandescent, the color temperature shifts to "warmer" because the filament gets cooler




. It would be interesting to simulate this effect by having some "warm white" LEDs and some standard LED, or even a set of white LEDs plus red and amber colored LEDs, then dim the cooler LEDs at a slightly faster rate than the others. That would simulate the tint shift of the incandescent lights.


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## Mark_Larson (Feb 1, 2007)

jar3ds said:


> i had warm CFL in my living room... after feeling depressed by it for too long I changed them out to FULL Spectrum CFL... now it is much happier and is absolutely better...
> 
> daylight is a little different than full spectrum but its too bad your wife doesn't see the light


Where can one buy cheapish full-spectrum CFLs/fluorescent tubes? How are they different from the high CRI 6500K bulbs?


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## jtr1962 (Feb 1, 2007)

Mark_Larson said:


> Where can one buy cheapish full-spectrum CFLs/fluorescent tubes? How are they different from the high CRI 6500K bulbs?


Home Depot has Philips 40W T12 sunlight tubes (CCT 5000K, 91 or 92 CRI) for about $6 each. Here are some full-spectrum 32W T8 tubes for sale online fairly cheap. The same place also has full-spectrum CFLs. In general though I feel if you're going to go fluorescent you're better off forgetting about CFLs and changing out your incandescent fixtures for electronically-ballasted ones using 32W T8 tubes. The tubes are available in a wide variety of color temperatures, including full-spectrum 5000K. They are cheaper in the long haul compared to pricey full-spectrum CFLs. They are about 50% more efficient than CFLs and last 3 to 4 times as long. Best of all, by going to a fixture where incandescent bulbs no longer fit there's no going back to incandescents once you go fluorescent.

In practical terms the difference between the less expensive 91 or 92 CRI full-spectrum tubes versus the very expensive, less efficient 98 CRI ones is so small most people won't notice it. And usually full-spectrum tubes are made in a CCT of 5000K to 5800K, not 6500K "daylight".


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## Vegeta (Feb 3, 2007)

I purchased a bunch of cheap 5000K "Full Spectrum" CFL bulbs from here and they work fine for me despite having a CRI of only 82. I ordered a total of 40 CFL bulbs of different sizes and shapes and one arrived as a dud. When I emailed customer service about it, they credited me for the bad bulb without any questions or requiring me to mail it back. The CFL that are enclosed in the globe or reflectors flood shape start off really dim and take around a minute to get to full brightness so that's a bit annoying but I guess it's made that way to be able to handle the extra heat. 

My wife actually loves the 5000K CFL lighting. She took a lot of pictures indoors and hated the yellow color shift on pictures. She just wanted to point and shoot with the digita camera set to "Auto" and didn't not want to get familiar with the color balance settings. That alone was enough for me to convince her to let me replace the old warm lighting we had. Now her pictures come out like we have sunlight in our home and visitors complain our place is too bright . My living room is lit up with 5 CFL bulbs which have a combined light output of 11000 lumens according to the spec sheets.


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## KillingTime (Feb 11, 2007)

I use the Philips bayonet (240v) CFL, and it has no start delay. You get light as soon as you flip the switch. I does take time to warm up however.

For those who are thinking of changing their GU10's to CFL, beware. The bulbs are physically longer then a standard GU10 (50mm) and they will stick out the end of your downlight fitting.

I ordered the latest MEGAMAN with indium technology. They're meant to be the best GU10 CFL's out there, but they still have a 0.5s delay when you hit the switch. Also, whereas with incans GU10, the filament is recessed into the reflector, with GU10 CFL's the element is right up against the end of the diffuser. This means if you have low ceilings like me, you can always see the cfl tube out the corner of your eye and they're really harsh to look at.

I went back to incand for the GU10. It's not a colour temp thing, it's just easier on the eyes.

My advice would be to only change over to CFL's if you can use them with a light shade.


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## ACMarina (Feb 12, 2007)

My wife hated the CFL bulbs until I tossed a couple cheepie LED bulbs in the bathroom fixture.. now she LOVES THEM!!


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## dudeldam (Feb 19, 2007)

Although someone might think that I would like to promote a special company (which is definately not true, but somehow I wonder why this brand is not mentioned - maybe they don´t exist overseas?) I recommend the incandescent-shaped

http://catalog.myosram.com/?~language=DE&~country=BM&~exiturl=http%3A//www.osram.de&it_c=10500080300400000000

I placed them on critical places populated by women and children and received no complain.

The catalog says (sorry for my humble translation)
OSRAM DULUX EL LONGLIFE CL A 20 W
The electrodeless Blabla is a new, very strong CFL for economic substitution of incandescents:
*extremely fast start by innovative electrodeless technology
*very high light force
*ling medium life time 15.000 hrs
*about 500.000 switch cycles

Of course you should look for a 110V version...


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