# Selfbuilt's CR123A Battery Comparison 2013



## selfbuilt

Welcome to my new 2013 CR123A Shoot-Out! 






From left to right: Panasonic (USA), Rayovac (USA), Energizer (USA), Streamlight (USA), Duracell (USA), Titanium Innovations (China), Powerizer (China), and Olight (China)

Back in 2009, I did some direct round-up comparisons of the performance of a number of CR123A brands (see: 2009 Quick CR123A and AA Battery Shoot-out Comparison and 2009 CR123A Comparison Review). Those analyses led me to certain conclusions at the time, which I subsequently revised on further testing. But I thought the time was ripe to re-address the major issues, and see how a number of different brands currently compare in direct head-to-head testing. For this analysis, I have tested recent samples of the various brands presented above, in a couple of my flashlights. As you will see below, these results have led me to some new and (at least to me) surprising conclusions. 

*The Big Question: Are different brands of CR123A really different from each other, and has that relationship changed over time?*

In order to begin to address this question, I need to get some preamble out of the way. And as before, I would like to start by making it clear that _I am not a battery expert by any means._ There are many here with a much greater understanding of battery design and testing – this is not my field. My goal in this thread is to just provide my direct testing experience, for what it is worth.

*Testing Method:*

Typically, all my output numbers are relative for my home-made light box setup, as described on my flashlightreviews.ca website. But in this case, I have plotted the results in estimated Lumens, based on a method I devised for converting my lightbox relative output values (ROV) to estimated Lumens. See my How to convert Selfbuilt's Lightbox values to Lumens thread for more info. All runtimes are done under a cooling fan. 

For each of the graphs in this review, I have chosen a single "representative" runtime trace for any given cell and test. Generally, I have done repeated tests on different samples, and find relatively little variability between individual cells from the same batch.

_Method Issue #1 – Testing comparability over time_

The first technical issue to consider is can I consistently compare batteries over time, using the same flashlight testing bed? I don't have the proper setup for interrogating voltage/current/power relationships, and so instead rely on output/runtime performance in a couple of lights (my Thrunite Neutron 1C and Foursevens Quark Q123-X). I keep these lights out of rotation, and use them solely for battery testing. But how consistent are my results over time?






What you are looking at above is the runtime performance of two Panasonic cells purchased in one batch, tested in my Thrunite 1C. They were both manufactured in May 2010, and the first tested by me in November 2011 (pink trace). I have kept some samples of that batch on hand (stored at room temp), and retested this month (May 2013) in the same light in my lightbox (black trace). As you can see, those curves are so similar as to be indistinguishable. This suggests that I can indeed compare batteries tested at different times in my setup – at least over a period of a couple of years. :thumbsup:

_Method Issue #2 – Age effects of storage or changing manufacturing processes?_

It's a well-known phenomenon that significantly older cells don't typically have the same capacity as recently manufactured cells. There are two possibilities at play here – do CR123As suffer from age effects of storage (i.e., loose capacity over time), or are there continual improvements in capacity due to revised manufacturing processes over time? The answer is likely both – but I suspect changing manufacturing is the key driver over relatively short time frames.

The reason I say that is that age effects seem negligible over the ~5 year time frame that most of us look at. The output/runtime example above shows that testing two Panasonic cells from the same batch 1.5 years and 3 years after manufacture shows no detectable difference. 

As an aside, it's true that a lot of CR123As have an official "expiry date" (typically, 10 years post-manufacture) – but most primary lithium cells should still perform quite well past this point. The 10-year mark may just be some accepted industry norm for a certain level of performance degradation (e.g., I've seen the suggestion that it represents a guarantee of >90% initial capacity remaining). I've also seen testing results here on CPF over the years that show made-in-the-USA cells still perform at >95% capacity after 10 years. There is also the suggestion that 10 years is the estimated point where seals may begin fail, and degradation rates begin to increase. There are also concerns of passivation layers developing over time, etc. But all these concerns aside, it seems pretty clear that in the short term (i.e., ~5 years), any age-related degradation in performance is likely to be extremely minor. 

BTW, if you are looking to figure out the date code on made-in-the-USA cells, CPF user LilKevin715 has compiled a number of them in this thread.

In any case, one thing that is clear is that manufacturing processes definitely change over time. I've heard from several people involved in the battery business that manufacturers are constantly adjusting and "tweaking" their battery formulations, trying to get better performance in modern devices. Obviously, this is going to be somewhat variable from one manufacturer to another, but it seems to be a general trend, as you will see below.










What you are looking at above is a comparison of a new batch of cells to my previous results in my Thrunite 1C and Foursevens Q123-X, on Turbo. In pretty much every case, the newer batch cells (which were 1-7 years newer than the old batch) performed better. Over these time frames, I expect the contribution of age effects is minimal to negligible. What you are really looking at above is how manufacturers constantly strive to improved performance.

_Method Issue #3 – Are different "brands" really from different manufacturers?_

This is an interesting question, and it relates somewhat to the issue of geographical point of origin.

For made-in-the-USA cells, it is _generally believed here on CPF that all USA-brand lithium CR123A cells are currently made by Panasonic in one plant in Georgia._  I don't have any inside information to know if that is true or not, but it does seem to be the consensus view around here (i.e., every USA-brand is actually a re-badged Panasonic cell, in some form). 

Note however that even if this is true, it does NOT mean that all made-in-the-USA cells are the same. It is quite common for contract-manufacturers to customize production of a common product to the needs of a variety of clients. So for example, USA brand A could want a lower price point than USA brand B, so specifies lower grade components and/or a cheaper manufacturing process in order to achieve that. It you read through the battery threads here, you will certainly find a lot of views that some USA brands are better than others.

Interestingly, my own results from 2009 supported what was a common view here at the time - I noticed what appeared to be two "tiers" of made-in-the-USA cells. The "top tier" of consistently best performance was composed of Duracell, Surefire, and Panasonic, with a second tier of Energizer, Rayovac, and Battery Station. Note the difference between these two tiers was not great – at sub-maximal drive levels, I got completely equivalent performance between all brands. But at max drive levels, I typically found ~4% lower capacity in the second tier group compared to the first (matching for age, as best I could).

In terms of the made-in-China cells, I notice two tiers again – a "top tier" of Titanium Innovations and Foursevens-branded cells, and a second tier of Tenergy and Powerizer cells. The difference in these cases was far more striking – the second tier China brands had consistently ~20-40% lower capacity than the top-tier ones at all levels. And at best, the top-tier China ones were equivalent to the made-in-the-USA cells - although that was highly variable, and depended on both the light and the drive level (i.e., while equivalent at one drive level, the same brand could underperform at another level). 

Enough with the preamble … let's see what the current data look like: 

*Output/Runtime Comparisons:*










_Note: To help you compare capacities, I am including an "area under the curve" estimate (AUC), in arbitrary units, rounded to the nearest half-integer. Also, the made-in-China cells don't have date codes, so I identify them by the date I received them._

Starting with Turbo modes, you can see some interesting patterns above. 

The first point that I would make is that _based on cells manufactured in the last two years, there no longer seems to be any difference between the made-in-the-USA cells in my testing setup._ The former "second tier" Rayovac/Energizer cells show significantly improved performance in 2013 compared to 2009. Indeed, they show a more significant improvement over the last few years, and have now "caught up" to the Panasonic cells (which have also improved over time, of course). In fact, on the Thrunite 1C, the Rayovac/Energizer cells lead the pack of USA-brands. 

Based on these current testing results, I think you'll find equivalent performance of _any_ of these USA-brands, manufactured in the last couple of years. :twothumbs Of course, that could change in the future, if customized manufacturing is really the case for some of these (or other) brands.

The second major observation is that all the made-in-China brands tested here show even greater improvements over the 2009 to 2013 time frame. On the Foursevens Q123-X in Turbo, all three brands do as well – or better – in runtime than the USA-brands. oo: But again, there is some variability depending on the light circuit in question - on the Thrunite 1C in Turbo, the Powerizer CR123A shows lower performance than the USA-brands, Titanium Innovations shows comparable performance, and Olight exceeds the USA-brands.

These results are quite striking to me – the playing field has definitely become a lot more level, at least in terms of apparent capacity in high-drain situations. But keep in mind that most of the "top tier" made-in-China cells always did fairly well at the higher drain levels – where many previously underperformed was at lower drive levels. Let's see how they do at a lower drive level:






A comment to start – I haven't bothered to include most USA brands in the graph above, since they never showed much of a difference at lower drive levels (i.e., even back in 2009, there was no real difference between the USA brands at this drive level). The Rayovac example above shows that performance has continued to improve, but the effect is not dramatic.

The "top tier" Titanium Innovations and Olight CR123As again managed to keep up with the USA brands, at least to their performance of a few years ago (i.e., the older Rayovac). This finding is significant for the Olight cells, as the early Foursevens-branded CR123As showed a significant lower performance at this level in the Thrunite 1C. I don't know if the Olight-branded cells are the same as the current Foursevens cells, but I note that the two companies have officially joined and perform common R&D. 

The "second-tier" Powerizer – which showed admirable capacity on the Thrunite 1C Turbo mode test – shows reduced runtime at this level in that light.

Again, these results are not meant to be indicative of all possible situations – but they do suggest that both Titanium Innovation and Olight CR123As have improved to the point where they offer comparable runtimes, at least at the drive levels tested here.

Again, a reminder to use caution in interpreting all these runtime results - I am simply showing a single "representative" trace for each battery above. But where I have done duplicates or triplicates, the results have been very consistent.

_Final issue – what about safety?_

This is a hard issue to address, as there is relatively little data on primary CR123A safety by specific brand. As always, I recommend people buy batteries from reputable vendors (with a proven track history), and stick with batteries that have a testing history here on CPF. My personal yardstick is to assume that the made-in-the-USA cells have the highest quality control and safety verification – but I have no way to directly assess that.

Interestingly, I do have some data about one key issue for safety – the PTC that is incorporated into every primary CR123A. A PTC (Positive Temperature Coefficient) functions kind of like a resistor or circuit breaker. Technically, they are thermistors – circuit devices whose resistance varies with temperature (in this case, resistance increases with temperature, aka a "posistor"). Battery PTCs are of the "switching" type, which means their resistance rises suddenly once a certain critical temperature is reached. 

I have previously observed in my testing that there are _marked differences in the speed in which made-in-the-USA cells will trip compared to made-in-China cells_. As you might expect, the made-in-the-USA cells trip earlier. 

It took me awhile to figure this out. In the early days of my review testing – when I used made-in-the-USA cells exclusively (mainly Duracell and Surefire) – I would sometimes see strange runtime patterns on heavily-driven lights on 4x and 2xCR123A cells. After a few mins runtime, the lights dropped-off rapidly to <50% output, remained there for awhile, started to recover output rapidly, only to then fall out of regulation. This pattern was far less likely to see after I switched to using the lower-cost, made-in-China Titanium Innovations cells (which I did in 2009, after having found they had pretty equivalent performance to made-in-the-USA cells). What can I tell you … even with donations, my annual battery costs still exceed my resources. 

I now believe this runtime pattern on the made-in-the-USA cells was due to PTC engagement and current limitation, based on a measurable rapid increase in temperature in these cells (in a light that was known not to have any circuit-limiting features for temperature). You will see an extensive discussion of the issue in this thread that I started on the subject. Basically, the point is that once the battery temperature reaches a certain threshold (which varies according to the battery manufacturer), the PTC resistance rises and current limitation kicks in, causing a rapid drop in output. Over time, the temperature drops and the cells recover, showing an uptick in output. 

Those early tests reported on in that thread were done with just two brands of made-in-the-USA cells and one made-in-China, but I've noticed similar patterns in other brands since then. Based on my continued testing, _my general conclusion still holds that the PTCs of made-in-the-USA cells are more likely to trip earlier than made-in-China cells,_ when placed under a very high drive current.

If you want to see a recent example of this PTC limitation, check out my Olight M3X (XM-L2) review. 

As an aside, this is part of the reason why I argue for circuit-controlled, timed- or thermal-step-down safety features in all lights with high drive levels that use primary CR123As (especially 2x or higher)

*Preliminary Discussion*

Although the results presented here are only a limited "snapshot" of a handful of cells, my preliminary conclusions are different from my earlier 2009 testing.

First, I am happy to report that I am no longer able to discern any significant difference in the output/runtime performance of any of the made-in-the-USA brands tested here, of comparable age. Further, performance continues to improve over time, with cells manufactured in the last few years showing measurable improvements in my testing setup.

Secondly, the performance of the made-in-China cells tested here is even more striking. In some cases, these cells provided comparable (or better) runtime performance to the made-in-the-USA cells – although these effects are variable, and dependent on the specific drive level. That said, there is more to a CR123A than raw capacity, and I recommend you review my comments above around PTC safety engagement between brands.

Hope you found that useful. :wave: Again, I am not an expert on batteries, and just wanted to share some direct testing experience. As always, I am happy to defer to the true battery experts here for any discussion of the specifics of chemistries, formulations and applications.


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## LilKevin715

Great job on the comparison:twothumbs! It looks like the sticky in this section of the forums needs to be updated:thumbsup:.
As always with your reviews/comparisons/etc. I enjoy your very thorough analysis and thoughts. Perhaps this will motivate Silverfox to update his 123 Battery Shoot Out. Was your reference to >95% capacity over a long period of time from ecrbattery's testing? Oh yea FYI Rayovac may now be sourcing cells from a manufacturer in China, details can be found here.

I was wondering if anyone would find my date code thread useful since no one replied to it. I almost forgot about it until you mentioned it.


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## WilsonCQB1911

Which cell does Surefire use? Is it Panasonic or Duracell?


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## selfbuilt

LilKevin715 said:


> Oh yea FYI Rayovac may now be sourcing cells from a manufacturer in China, details can be found here.


Yes, that's a good point - I've seen that thread, and it's useful information. In my case, I was using made-in-the-USA Rayovacs, but it would be interesting to compare to the made-in-China ones. Not that I plan to do it though .... as you say, hopefully this thread will spur some of the battery experts here to do updated comparison testing of currently shipping cells. 



> I was wondering if anyone would find my date code thread useful since no one replied to it. I almost forgot about it until you mentioned it.


Glad to give you the link - I used have bookmarked a bunch of separate threads, so it's nice to find it in one place. Surprised no one responded to it.



WilsonCQB1911 said:


> Which cell does Surefire use? Is it Panasonic or Duracell?


Well, all made-in-the-USA CR123As are believed to be made by Panasonic. In my testing, I have never detected a difference between Surefire, Duracell or Panasonic.


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## leor604

Awesome, Selfbuilt. Thank you :bow:

Having just bought a couple of D25C Clickys I was looking at picking up 50 cells. Looks like the only real outlier is the Powerizer. This info makes the shopping much easier!!!


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## darcyh

Thank you for a very well explained review. You put considerable effort into this project! Much appreciated.


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## candle lamp

Excellent review. selfbuilt! :thumbsup:
Your test is very useful & informative. Thanks a lot for your time & effort.


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## tobrien

thanks!


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## selfbuilt

:grouphug: Thanks all - glad you are finding these comparisons useful.



darcyh said:


> Thank you for a very well explained review. You put considerable effort into this project! Much appreciated.


Well, perhaps more accurate to say that I put a lot of time into writing a bunch of text.  I know this thread is a bit wordy, but I thought it was important to provide a lot of context for the results.

I had begun to realize that my older threads (even with updates) were running the risk of misleading people as to current performance. So I thought it was important to do a fresh comparison with recent cells.


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## selfbuilt

FYI, I've been asked if I plan to add any more batteries to this round up - not at the present time, I'm afraid. A bit swamped with lights right now.  And in any case, the performance on the above brands are so generally comparable (at least for the USA-brands), that I think this serves a good general indicator for now.

Cheers! :wave:


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## JohnSmith

Awesome work as always, SB!


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## aus_sparky

Has there been a comparison of the USA made Panasonic's to the Japanese made Panasonic's? Are they of the same quality?


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## THE_dAY

Greatly appreciated!

Subscribed so I can take the time to really read the whole thing later tonight.


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## selfbuilt

Glad you are enjoying the quick comparisons. :grouphug:



aus_sparky said:


> Has there been a comparison of the USA made Panasonic's to the Japanese made Panasonic's? Are they of the same quality?


A good question, I don't know of one off-hand, but there may be something if you search. I've never handled the Japan-made Pannys myself. :shrug:


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## KarstGhost

This needs to be a sticky! Awesome info, selfbuilt.


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## lyricnz

Great comparison, and very useful to know. Have you ever thought about doing comparison between behaviour of rechargable vs regular CR123A?


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## HKJ

lyricnz said:


> Great comparison, and very useful to know. Have you ever thought about doing comparison between behaviour of rechargable vs regular CR123A?




I have done something here, it is an article to show the difference between the battery chemistries/types, not between individual brands.


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## lyricnz

HKJ said:


> I have done something here, it is an article to show the difference between the battery chemistries/types, not between individual brands.



Ok, great! Good job, man!


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## selfbuilt

HKJ said:


> I have done something here, it is an article to show the difference between the battery chemistries/types, not between individual brands.


Indeed, great resource. Thanks for compiling all that HKJ.


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## brightnorm

A wonderful resource. Thanks, Selfbuilt, for yet another great contribution to CPF.

Brightnorm


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## photonhoer

selfbuilt

I really appreciate and often rely on the many reports you have shared with us here! Thank you very much.

As I read your initial post, I found myself wondering how many individual batteries are represented in each of your curves?

Clearly, the higher the number (N) in any sample, the more reliable the information will be. An N=1 can be useful, and we all often rely on such small samples. I certainly understand that you operate under budget constraints [time and $$]. 

As a user of your data, I would simply like to know — if I could — what your sample sizes are in order to inform the interpretations I make of your data. Can you share any information?

Thanks, John


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## selfbuilt

photonhoer said:


> Clearly, the higher the number (N) in any sample, the more reliable the information will be. An N=1 can be useful, and we all often rely on such small samples. I certainly understand that you operate under budget constraints [time and $$].


Absolutely right - this is always the key question. It's hard to know what to make of n=1 (which is often all I have of lights).

For the batteries, all the samples tested above were at least n=2, some n=3. I choose a "representative" runtime to depict in the graphs (since summing the curves alters their typical appearance). 

There was surprisingly little variability between samples of a given batch, at least for the USA cells (see the analysis of two batteries tested yeas apart above). I saw a lot more variability on the China cells. But since I didn't have sufficiently high numbers to do a proper statistical comparison, I didn't pursue this further.


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## Neo9710

selfbuilt said:


> Absolutely right - this is always the key question. It's hard to know what to make of n=1 (which is often all I have of lights).
> 
> For the batteries, all the samples tested above were at least n=2, some n=3. I choose a "representative" runtime to depict in the graphs (since summing the curves alters their typical appearance).
> 
> There was surprisingly little variability between samples of a given batch, at least for the USA cells (see the analysis of two batteries tested yeas apart above). I saw a lot more variability on the China cells. But since I didn't have sufficiently high numbers to do a proper statistical comparison, I didn't pursue this further.




Just wanted to say THANKS for this thread...My new light uses CR123's and I use my light QUITE OFTEN! So, HELPFUL! Looks like Im placing an order for the Titanium Innovations...


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## Grijon

Stellar work, indeed.

Thank you, selfbuilt!!


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## RI Chevy

I have a question regarding the useful voltage range of a Panasonic CR123A cell. I had the cell in an Elzetta Alpha. I used the cell until the light output eventually went out. I measured the cell on a DMM and it was 2.49v's. A day later, I put that same cell into a Malkoff CR123 host with a M31WL drop in (.8 to 3.3v's), figuring that the drop in would take the cell down to somewhere around 1.2v's or so based on the voltage range. I based this on my usage of a single AA cell with the Malkoff AA host and the M31WL drop in. The drop in lights up with a single AA cell that is generally 1.5v's, and runs down to about 1.2v's. But to my amazement, the CR123A cell that read 2.49v's on my DMM, would not even light up the M31WL drop in. ??? I am a little confused. Is the useful voltage of a CR123A cell only down to 2.5v's? So basically you only get about .5 volts out of a 3v cell? Any insight into this would be very appreciative.


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## selfbuilt

RI Chevy said:


> Any insight into this would be very appreciative.


I will have to leave to the experts on lithium battery chemistry to explain, but what you observe is consistent with my experience. The resting voltage of a primary CR123A never drops by very much. For that matter, neither does a typical alkaline cell. This is why you need to use pulse-current tester if you want to gauge the remaining capacity of a partially depleted primary AA/AAA or CR123A. They are not like lithium ions, which show a clear reduction in resting voltage.


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## RI Chevy

Thanks for the response. It is just odd, that a battery with 2.49v's would not fire up the Malkoff M31WL drop in.


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## RI Chevy

Anyone else have first hand experience?


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## selfbuilt

RI Chevy said:


> Thanks for the response. It is just odd, that a battery with 2.49v's would not fire up the Malkoff M31WL drop in.


I can't speak to that light, but I have seen plenty of others where a partially-drained CR123A would not activate. It seems like many lights (when already on) will happily drain a CR123A until it is completely dead, but have a threshold for activation that is considerably higher. :shrug: This is why only so many lights are suitable as "battery vampires" (i.e., able to activate and drain a cell no matter how little juice is left).


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## GrainOfLight

Hi @selfbuilt 

I am in a bit pf a pickle and after reading this forum post I thought this could be the place to get some assistance 

Currently i am getting a unique shaped flashlight made for me in China. The hardware I have selected is a CREE XM-L2 LED powered by 1 x 3.7V 650mAh CR123A rechargeable battery (RCR123A).

The manufacturer states that in order to achieve 220 LUMEN output, they will only be able to provide me with 30 minutes of runtime using their battery.

I believe I should be able to achieve longer than this based on a couple of reasons: 

1) The data sheet of the CREE XM-L2 states that the Luminous Flux (lm) @ 700mA is approximately 260lm (using Neutral White lamp). If the capacity of the battery is 650mA, shouldn't I be able to achieve closer to one hour of runtime?

2) Looking at existing flashlights on the market using XM-L2, they seem to achieve a longer runtime with their flashlights: for example 'Nitecore MH1C' claims to have 220 Lumens for 1 hour. You can see the device here: http://www.nitecore.com/productDetail.aspx?id=68#.VTliGCGeDGc

Nitecore states to use their own RCR123A batteries for these results.

Do you think that Nitecores claims are reasonable and I should look for another manufacturer to complete my light with better runtime? Or do you think that the claim from my manufacturer i reasonable?

Do you think it has something to do with the batteries that Nitecore are using or is it more related to the driver circuit within the board?

All-in-all I want to know if I can achieve a runtime of 1 hour, using a CREE XM-L2 producing 220 Lumens and if so is there a CR123A battery that would be best suited for this?

Thanks for any assistance, it would be greatly appreciated, i look forward to hearing back


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## HKJ

You can get the actual capacity of some RCR123 on my website, but why not make the battery tube slightly larger in diameter and support 18350 cells, you get considerable more energy for 2mm more in diameter.


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## selfbuilt

GrainOfLight said:


> Do you think that Nitecores claims are reasonable and I should look for another manufacturer to complete my light with better runtime? Or do you think that the claim from my manufacturer i reasonable?
> Do you think it has something to do with the batteries that Nitecore are using or is it more related to the driver circuit within the board?


Sorry, but I haven't tested various RCRs to confirm their capacity. I suggest you follow HKJ's link, since he has done the most extensive work here.

But as a general rule, I would treat all manufacturer's claims as suspect until verified independently. My own flashlight testing shows that most runtime specs are not very accurate. Any battery with the same chemistry should give you equivalent output - it is mainly runtime that will vary, directly with actual capacity. For that, you will need find independent tests - manufacturers claim what ever they want.


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## GrainOfLight

HKJ said:


> You can get the actual capacity of some RCR123 on my website, but why not make the battery tube slightly larger in diameter and support 18350 cells, you get considerable more energy for 2mm more in diameter.



Good point and trhanks for the suggestion. I didn't know these batteries existed. They seem to make CR123A batteries obsolete... Are they a new technology, because I can't see a lot of flashlights out there using this battery. What are the differences between 18350 and 16340 (CR123A), besides the capacity and diameter. Are there any downfalls?

Thanks again!


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## GrainOfLight

Thanks! Yeah im being very suspicious on these Nitecore claims. I just want to know a general runtime operation for the common XM-L2 using a rechargeable RCR123A at approximately 220 LUMENS. After hearing HKJ's comment I am looking forward to hearing about the 18350 capabilities!


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## HKJ

GrainOfLight said:


> Good point and trhanks for the suggestion. I didn't know these batteries existed. They seem to make CR123A batteries obsolete... Are they a new technology, because I can't see a lot of flashlights out there using this battery. What are the differences between 18350 and 16340 (CR123A), besides the capacity and diameter. Are there any downfalls?



They are just another size of LiIon batteries and the slight increase in diameter leaves space for more capacity.
When working with RCR123 size you also has to be aware of the different voltages. 16340 and 18350 usual has higher voltage than CR123 (A maximum of 4.2 volt), but you can get some that has a maximum of 3.4 volt (Most common in 16340 size).
I have written a bit about it here: http://lygte-info.dk/info/CR123A and rechargeable substitutes UK.html


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## GrainOfLight

Thanks, th einformation on your page is amazing, I really appreciate your time and effort gone into this! I really like the look of the Ultrafire XSL18350 batteries. I think Trustfire make these, do you know? The Ultrafire XSL18350 seems to be perfect for my light and according to your graphs and data along with the specifications from the CREE XM-L2 we have as follows:

The CREE XM-L2 delivers approximately 220 LUMENS @ 700mA discharge current. Therefore according to your results, if I request drive the LED @ 700mA, we should get approx 220 LUMENS and see the runtime fall somewhere between 90 mins (discharge @ 0.5A) and 45 minutes (discharge @ 1A): hopefully this falls close to the 1 hour mark  

I see the battery doesn't perform too well at currents over 2A, but for my flahslight with high setting of 220 Lumens, I think I will be fine.

Do you have any other comments on this battery since doing the test? or do you have another alternative in mind for me that blows this battery out of the water?

Thanks again, you really have saved me a lot of research time with your data!

Terrence




HKJ said:


> They are just another size of LiIon batteries and the slight increase in diameter leaves space for more capacity.
> When working with RCR123 size you also has to be aware of the different voltages. 16340 and 18350 usual has higher voltage than CR123 (A maximum of 4.2 volt), but you can get some that has a maximum of 3.4 volt (Most common in 16340 size).
> I have written a bit about it here: http://lygte-info.dk/info/CR123A and rechargeable substitutes UK.html


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## HKJ

GrainOfLight said:


> ... Ultrafire XSL18350 batteries. ...
> Do you have any other comments on this battery since doing the test? or do you have another alternative in mind for me that blows this battery out of the water?



Ultrafire is often a bad name on batteries, the reason is that multiple factories uses that name and some of them only print wrappers. The biggest problem is with 18650 size, I do not know how much problem there is with the 18350 size.


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## GrainOfLight

Thanks, have you hear of Trustfire? I am looking at these and ordering direct from the Trustfire factory, so they should be legit. 

http://trustfire.en.alibaba.com/pro...0mAh_18350_Ecig_MOD_rechargeable_battery.html



HKJ said:


> Ultrafire is often a bad name on batteries, the reason is that multiple factories uses that name and some of them only print wrappers. The biggest problem is with 18650 size, I do not know how much problem there is with the 18350 size.


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## HKJ

GrainOfLight said:


> Thanks, have you hear of Trustfire? I am looking at these and ordering direct from the Trustfire factory, so they should be legit.
> 
> http://trustfire.en.alibaba.com/pro...0mAh_18350_Ecig_MOD_rechargeable_battery.html



Trustfire is not a quality brand, but may work.


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## GrainOfLight

Hi HK and everyone else.

After a lot of forum reading and questioning, I get the feeling that there is a strong following for AW batreries including the IMR 18350.

From what I can understand is that IMR allow for a higher discharge current but lower capacity that ICR's. 

In my application I will only have a drive current of around 700mA to 1A. So am I correct in saying that the bets battery for me to use will be a ICR 18350 rather tan an IMR?

If so, unfortunately AW does not provide the ICR, this may be because Panasonic does not produce the cells... or something along those lines.

Does anybody know of a manufacturer that sources high quality (potentially Japanese) cells and distributes them as ICR 18350, or am I better suited to selecting an IMR?

Thanks for all the help.

Terrence



HKJ said:


> Trustfire is not a quality brand, but may work.


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## RI Chevy

This thread is for CR123A Lithium primary cells, or at least it started out that way. To avoid confusion, you may want to start a new thread for your questions relating to different battery chemistry.


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## ro63rto

Shame lithiums can't be shipped abroad.
Battery junction have the Titaniums at 98c each but won't send to UK [emoji20] 
I've settled on 7dayshop's own brand.
4 for £2.59
We'll see how long they last in my Solarforce Skyline I.


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## recDNA

Sc32w draws 2 - 2.5 amps from Surefire CR123A in H1 mode. Is it safe?


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## peabody

Got a Solarforce L2P and running a LEDengin 365 UV P-60 drop-in that is rated 4.2v-8.4volts max. What can I expect the runtimes to be using any of these CR123a batteries listed?


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## McCoy

I know this thread originated in 2013, has battery technology accelerated past the information posted in this thread or is this still valid information?


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## SilverFox

Hello McCoy,

Welcome to CPF.

The information is still valid.

Tom


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## rotncore

Links to the charts on SB's page and here seem to be broken...did they get archived somewhere I hope?


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## selfbuilt

rotncore said:


> Links to the charts on SB's page and here seem to be broken...did they get archived somewhere I hope?


Photobucket was doing "maintenance" yesterday - so all my figures and charts were down for most of the day, it seems. Looks everything is back up fine today.


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## Screwball69N

[h=1]Has any on tried or tested the Sanyo 18650 4000mAh or the 4500MaH please let me know if they live up to there specs

4000mAh Sanyo HR4/3AU NiMH Flat Top Cell[/h]


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## kj2

There are no 4000+ mah 18650s, yet.


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## LED Monkey

Looks like the Titanium 123's did quite well, and for the price it seems quite good too. After seeing this review I figured it was time to get some for my brandy spankin new Elzetta Bravo B333 (AVS/cren bez/HiLo tail) . Ordered from Battery Junction I got 125 cells of the Titaniums after using a coupon it came out to exactly $0.80 cents per cell shipped to my door. That seems pretty cheap. I guess I'll see how well they perform.
And btw I just joined up here! Pretty cool forum:wave:.


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## RI Chevy

Welcome to the Forum! :welcome:


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## LED Monkey

If anyone has any input about the Titanium 123's that are part of SB shootout please say how you like them, good or bad. In fact if there are any longer usage reports on any of these cr123's I would appreciate it. Any leaking/dead new cells/etc...


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## RI Chevy

I have only used battery station and Surefire cells. Never used Titanium 123's.


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## LED Monkey

I've heard mostly good things about those U.S. made 123's . I do have a little concern about the Titaniums however and it's pretty much just about it's country of origin PRC, and the fact that I'm using them in a 2x series light which brings in one more factor as far as safety is concerned.
They did however seem to do quite well in Selfbuilt's shootout and I was able to get them at a low price (0.80cents) delivered.


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## RI Chevy

True. But the test was done 3 years ago. Keep us informed as to the performance of those cells.


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## KeepingItLight

According the specifications posted at Battery Junction, the Titanium Innovations CR123A battery has a maximum continuous discharge current of 1.5 amps. This is the same limit that CR123A batteries made by other manufacturers have. The same spec at Battery Junction says that 3.0 amps is the maximum pulse discharge current for the Titanium Innovations CR123A battery.

Now, I do not have any details about how the pulse discharge current is determined for the Titanium Innovations CR123A battery. I do, however, have a spec sheet for the Sanyo CR123A battery. It defines maximum pulse discharge current to be that current that causes battery voltage to sag to 1.0 volts in only 15 seconds! 

Here is the quote: 



> Current value for obtaining 1.0V cell voltage when pulse is applied for 15 seconds at 50% discharge depth at 23 degrees C.



Obviously a "useful" pulse will usually be significantly shorter than 15 seconds. 

So why does the spec at Battery Junction say that the PTC High Current Discharge Protection on the Titanium Innovations CR123A battery is set to 5 amps? That is _much higher_ the PTC used by CR123A batteries that are made in the U.S.A. Frankly, it is higher that what I choose to use myself. Having the PTC set to 5 amps allows many flashlights to pull too much current from CR123A batteries.

In the last decade, high-output LED flashlights have surpassed the current that CR123A batteries can safely supply. All the CR123A batteries that I have checked are rated for a 1.5-amp maximum continuous draw. In a 2xCR123A series configuration, that means a top output of around 600-700 lumens. 

CR123A still has an important place in the flashlight world. Its small size, long storage life, and good operating characteristics at temperature extremes (both hot and cold) mean that it will continue to be used for the foreseeable future. 

Just don't try to pull too many amps.


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## LED Monkey

KeepingItLight said:


> According the specifications posted at Battery Junction, the Titanium Innovations CR123A battery has a maximum continuous discharge current of 1.5 amps. This is the same limit that CR123A batteries made by other manufacturers have. The same spec at Battery Junction says that 3.0 amps is the maximum pulse discharge current for the Titanium Innovations CR123A battery.
> 
> Now, I do not have any details about how the pulse discharge current is determined for the Titanium Innovations CR123A battery. I do, however, have a spec sheet for the Sanyo CR123A battery. It defines maximum pulse discharge current to be that current that causes battery voltage to sag to 1.0 volts in only 15 seconds!
> 
> Here is the quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously a "useful" pulse will usually be significantly shorter than 15 seconds.
> 
> So why does the spec at Battery Junction say that the PTC High Current Discharge Protection on the Titanium Innovations CR123A battery is set to 5 amps? That is _much higher_ the PTC used by CR123A batteries that are made in the U.S.A. Frankly, it is higher that what I choose to use myself. Having the PTC set to 5 amps allows many flashlights to pull too much current from CR123A batteries.
> 
> In the last decade, high-output LED flashlights have surpassed the current that CR123A batteries can safely supply. All the CR123A batteries that I have checked are rated for a 1.5-amp maximum continuous draw. In a 2xCR123A series configuration, that means a top output of around 600-700 lumens.
> 
> CR123A still has an important place in the flashlight world. Its small size, long storage life, and good operating characteristics at temperature extremes (both hot and cold) mean that it will continue to be used for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Just don't try to pull too many amps.



Woops, Didn't mean to copy the whole post.
But in the Elzetta Bravo it is supposed to be under 1.5A I believe.
But in My 1x123 Olight S10 it seems like too much for the cell in turbo/Hi at least the the RCR16340 cell. Maybe you have some knowledge on some of the very small 1x123 lights.


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## KeepingItLight

Kudos to Elzetta! It keeps current draws within specifications.

I do not know about the *Olight S10*. 

I have read reports, however, that the *Olight S1* draws over 2 amps in turbo mode. One CPF member measured 2.2 amps. I am using the protected, button-top Olight RCR123A rechargeable Li-ion battery in mine. 

The current limitations I described above apply to non-rechargeable CR123A batteries. I do not know the limitations of the rechargeable Olight battery I am using. Please, let me know if you have a datasheet of some kind.


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## LED Monkey

I don't have a datasheet. I did see a YOUTUBE review of the Olight S1 "Review the light" I think he goes by Bigmac or something like that here CPF, and the S1 would shut off in the outdoor beam shots because it was drawing too many amps on Hi/turbo with a protected RCR123. He said it should be able to run on high with an unprotected IMR RCR123.


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## KeepingItLight

LED Monkey said:


> I don't have a datasheet. I did see a YOUTUBE review of the Olight S1 "Review the light" I think he goes by Bigmac or something like that here CPF, and the S1 would shut off in the outdoor beam shots because it was drawing too many amps on Hi/turbo with a protected RCR123. He said it should be able to run on high with an unprotected IMR RCR123.



Turbo mode on the *Olight S1 *is limited to 90 seconds. After that, it ramps down to 50% over the next 60 seconds. As yet, I have not had any problems with the Olight brand RCR123A battery. I suspect, however, that it may be at or over its limit. I don't want to start any rumors, however, because I do not know any facts about the rechargeable Olight battery. It may be completely within spec.

I have a *BLF A6* flashlight that I sometimes use with the short, 1x18350 battery tube. I'm fueling that with a KeepPower INR18350 battery. It works great. I do not have any testing equipment, but based on the reports of others, I expect I am getting over 900 lumens. There is no problem supplying the higher current used by the A6.

I considered getting a similar 16340, INR or IMR battery for the S1, but rejected the idea. The S1 does not have any low-voltage cutoff or warning, so my choice was to run it on a protected battery.


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## david.allie

selfbuilt said:


> *Preliminary Discussion*
> 
> Although the results presented here are only a limited "snapshot" of a handful of cells, my preliminary conclusions are different from my earlier 2009 testing.
> 
> First, I am happy to report that I am no longer able to discern any significant difference in the output/runtime performance of any of the made-in-the-USA brands tested here, of comparable age. Further, performance continues to improve over time, with cells manufactured in the last few years showing measurable improvements in my testing setup.
> 
> Secondly, the performance of the made-in-China cells tested here is even more striking. In some cases, these cells provided comparable (or better) runtime performance to the made-in-the-USA cells – although these effects are variable, and dependent on the specific drive level. That said, there is more to a CR123A than raw capacity, and I recommend you review my comments above around PTC safety engagement between brands.



Thank you  for your tireless dedication to researching various batteries and battery technologies. I’ve learned a lot from you and CPF in the short time since I joined.

Using what I’ve learned, I’ve been trying to compare 2018-era CR123As. Looking at your 2013 CR123A shoot-out, we now know Energizer has moved battery manufacturing to China and both Duracell and Titanium Innovations popularity have waned a bit. At the same, the AmazonBasics batteries are now on the scene, but get mixed reviews among Amazon reviewers... while EBL and SureFire’s names are popping up in more of my search results.

Since it’s now been almost five years since the 2013 CR123A Shoot-out, are you planning on a new shoot-out OR perhaps lend us your wisdom as to brands we should strongly consider in 2018?


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## recDNA

Great idea David! I always go with Surefire but if another one is better I'm not adverse to saving $


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## archimedes

david.allie said:


> ....
> Since it’s now been almost five years since the 2013 CR123A Shoot-out, are you planning on a new shoot-out OR perhaps lend us your wisdom as to brands we should strongly consider in 2018?



FYI ... @INFRNL has been working on a similar project more recently over in the Malkoff thread.

EDIT ... here's one link 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/5173732


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## scout24

I know the thread's a few years old, but I figured I had $.02 to add. I dug a light out of my truck last night to take a picture for another thread, thinking I had something to contribute. Alas, I was wrong, lol. So, before putting said Surefire G2 lego away this morning I figured I'd check the batteries. This is why for emergency lights I use primaries, and 99% of the time they're Surefires. These have been outdoors in New England through 8 or 9 winters and summers, and have had maybe a half hour of use in that timeframe. The Malkoff module still fires up at what appears to be full brightness without missing a beat.


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## aznsx

scout24 said:


> I know the thread's a few years old, but I figured I had $.02 to add. I dug a light out of my truck last night to take a picture for another thread, thinking I had something to contribute. Alas, I was wrong, lol. So, before putting said Surefire G2 lego away this morning I figured I'd check the batteries. This is why for emergency lights I use primaries, and 99% of the time they're Surefires. These have been outdoors in New England through 8 or 9 winters and summers, and have had maybe a half hour of use in that timeframe. The Malkoff module still fires up at what appears to be full brightness without missing a beat.
> View attachment 27306



Thanx. That's a comforting data point to know!

EDIT: I should add that although I don't always use SF cells specifically, I do only use the top brands we're all familiar with, and I imagine they'd perform similarly.


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