# Is HID really worth the extra money?



## heliyardsale (Jan 26, 2007)

I was reading the Sam's Club HID thread, Is it really worth the extra money to buy a HID light, like the Sam's HID over a standard spotlight? I have a Vector that seems to work pretty darn good, Just how far will the Sam's club HID throw over a conventional spot like the Vector or Thor? Please comment!!
Thanks,
Heli


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## Manzerick (Jan 26, 2007)

many many lumens!!!

Depends on your needs..

What are you looking to do with it?


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## twentysixtwo (Jan 26, 2007)

Depends

Plus: Tons of light with long runtime and great throw
Minus: Warm-up and restrike issues, cost, limited light levels

My opinion is that the lower powered (10-14 watt) HID will be effectively obsolete soon due to capabilities of tri or quad Cree or P4's. In the 35+ watt range there won't be anything for a while that can compare.


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## Ra (Jan 26, 2007)

Hi Heli,

HID is an improvement over halogen on many fields: Bulblife, efficiency, surface-brightness and color temperature. (tho some do like the 3200K warm colortemp of halogen)

Mostly the electronics that are needed to operate HID-bulbs are very stable and power the bulb WITHOUT fluctuations caused by draining batteries.

If you compare a 35watt HID with a 35watt projection halogen (short filament), you would see about 4-6 times higher lumens output with HID !
Also the surface brightness will be about 4 times higher, this is important for throw: Four times higher surface brightness means two times higher throw!

If you have questions, please ask..


Regards,

Ra.


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## Sable (Jan 26, 2007)

I don't agree that 10w HID will be obsolete - at least, not until Lumileds proves they really can produce 500+ lumens from a one-millimetre-square die. You can get the lumes out of multi-emitter arrangements, but to the best of my knowledge, that simply does not throw like an HID. You get impressive light, but it doesn't "reach out and touch someone" the same way.


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## heliyardsale (Jan 26, 2007)

I guess what I'm looking for is a smallest HID that will throw no less than my 2 million CP vector but won't break the bank. Is there somthing in the $100-200 range out that is the size of a 3D or similar Maglight?
Thanks,
Heli


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## Ra (Jan 26, 2007)

Sable is absolutely right !!

The most powerfull emitters of today still have lower surface brightness compared to halogen !! So they still have a long way ahead to reach the surface brightness of HID !!

EDIT: Maybe you don't know this: Laws of light: For throw, surface-brightness is more important over lumens output ! Ofcource you also need lumens to have decent sidespill, but most of all, you need the light to come from a surface as small as possible. With that, you need a smooth, perfect parabolic reflector.

Increase the diameter of the reflector (with surface brightness unchanged): You increase throw..

Increase surface brightness (with reflector diameter unchanged): You increase throw..

So, with HID, you can reach the throw of a much bigger halogen-spotlight, with the use of a smaller reflector !


And Heli, There are guys that mod Mag's to HID (mostly using 10watt Welch Allyn stuff) But I don't think those will be under 200$..
And everything needs to be perfect if you want to reach the aprox 125,000cp (!!) of the Vector 2Mcp with a 10watt HID-Mag..But it is possible.


Regards,

Ra.


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## get-lit (Jan 26, 2007)

...also be aware that most people underestimate real candlepower because almost all consumer lights are way over rated and most people would be very suprised how little candlepower most consumer lights actually have. A standard should be applied but there is none.


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## mtbkndad (Jan 26, 2007)

I own numerous halogen and HID spotlights.
When maximum light output that stays the same for the duration of the battery life is important then HID's are worth every penny more then the halogens.

When I know the light will be going on and off a lot I use the halogens.

You will simply get A LOT more light out of an HID of similar size then a corresponding Halogen light.
Sams HID or Amondotech Illuminator vs 10 MCP thors or similar sized halogen lights.

Regarding LED's and lower powered HID's, there are numerous areas where the bright multi-LED lights available are better suited then lower powered HID's. Note I did not say longer throwing or have brighter hotspots. Rather better suited to the application. 

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## Ra (Jan 26, 2007)

get-lit said:


> ...also be aware that most people underestimate real candlepower because almost all consumer lights are way over rated and most people would be very suprised how little candlepower most consumer lights actually have. A standard should be applied but there is none.



The only I can add to this: There is a standard ! But it is widely abused by many manufacturers. They think "who is gona measure it anyway??" But it is exactly the same when I sell a 50 watt halogen bulb saying its a 500 watt bulb!!

The few manufacturers that are honest about the CP-ratings of their products have to post very dissapointing values.

An exeption to this: Peakbeam is honest with the impressive 6,000,000 cp-claim for Maxabeam :duck:
Compare that to the honest claim of 30,000 cp of Maglite with MagCharger !! :candle:

I hope you know that I'm not talking lumens output here: Maxabeam has about 900 torchlumens tops (overdriven..) ! An average 10Mcp halogen-spotlight can easily top that !!


Regards,

Ra.


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## heliyardsale (Jan 26, 2007)

Thanks for the great insight. It sounds like HID may have some limitations. Dollar for Dollar, would you say the Sam's 35 watt HID is a good deal? the Wolf and other 20-24 watt light look really nice, but very pricey.... Maybe the Sam's light would be a first good venture into the world of HID??? 
Thanks for your time and quick responses,
Heli


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## cmacclel (Jan 26, 2007)

twentysixtwo said:


> Depends
> 
> Plus: Tons of light with long runtime and great throw
> Minus: Warm-up and restrike issues, cost, limited light levels
> ...



HID's will never be obsoleted  You will never get the throw out of an LED you can get out of the HID at this time.

If you want a Flood light then you maybe correct.... but for throw nothing beats an HID due to the nature of the beast. Also HID's are much more effecient. 12v at 1 amp draw gives me around 600+ bulb lumens.


Mac


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## LED61 (Jan 26, 2007)

I own a variety of nice HID lights and also nice incandescents. The only problem with the HID's is you'll never have the beautiful and even beam that the nicest halogens like the SF M6 provide. You'll also have a variety of colors in the beam. You might be surprised at this but my SF M6 with 600 lumens sometimes beats my Microfire K2000R with its 1200 lumens at a distance in the green. The beam from the M6 is much more even in light intensity and color.


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## mtbkndad (Jan 26, 2007)

heliyardsale said:


> Thanks for the great insight. It sounds like HID may have some limitations. Dollar for Dollar, would you say the Sam's 35 watt HID is a good deal? the Wolf and other 20-24 watt light look really nice, but very pricey.... Maybe the Sam's light would be a first good venture into the world of HID???
> Thanks for your time and quick responses,
> Heli



I do not seem to remember any post where somebody already owned a Thor 10 MCP or similar light and bought an Amondotech Illuminator or Sam's HID and did not think it was worth the extra money.

The consistent, through it's entire run time, light output alone is worth the extra for me.
Add to that the fact that they put out more light over all, have significantly more throw, and are smaller. I personally think the cost for these two lights is a very reasonable price to pay.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## 65535 (Jan 26, 2007)

Depends on what you task is, HID's make nice durable lights that are much more effiecient with the exact same battery way more runtime same output. HID is easy on the battery.


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## MikeSalt (Jan 26, 2007)

With lumiLEDS bringing out their 502 lumen light chip soon, is it possible that HID will have had its days. 7 of these in an array is going to give 3500 lumen output, which is HID standard. Team that up with LED shock-resistance, efficiency and instant-on capability, HID may soon have had its day.


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## get-lit (Jan 27, 2007)

LED and laser technology will surely have some very amazing developments. Even with the higher output each new Luxeon continues to pump out, I would bet money that they still suffer extremely poor light quality with low color rendering index and mountainous color spectrums. Eventually these must be overcome in order to surpass HID and incandescent in real world lighting applications. I would be surprised if that would happen any time soon even if their efficacy soon supercedes HID and incandescent, but it would be nice to be proven wrong. Imagine a day when a little piece of plastic losslessly converts energy into any kind of light you wanted without failure.


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## Ra (Jan 27, 2007)

MikeSalt,,

Please carefully read posts #7 and #12 !!!

On lumens output, even nowadays an array of Cree-emitters is capable of reaching impressive values.

But it is the surface-brightness that (hugely..) stayes behind !! (compared to HID) Only a revolutionary breakthrough can solve that within a few years !!!

And for throw you need surface-brightness !!!!!!

For a few years now, we enjoy the power of HID. It still is the best compromise between lumens-output and throw. But take a look at the incandenscent section of CPF.. its still huge !! This means that there are quite a lot of members that still go for incands !! Indeed there are a few incan-advantages HID does not have..

As for led's.. I think they will stay in their seperate section too !! Even when they surpass HID on efficiency, due to their voltage-behavure, they are very much suited for very small-, small- and medium-sized flashlights !

Each lightsource has its ad- and disad-vantages.:huh2: But what are we whining about ?? WE ARE FLASHAHOLICS !!! WE CAN HAVE ALL OF THEM !!!

I almost have all: Fluorescent, led, halogen, HID, Xenon short-arc and Mercury short-arc !!!



Regards,

Ra.


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## get-lit (Jan 27, 2007)

How about the advent of a cross between a LED and a laser... That would be something. Also consider the development of a readily available high power white laser that can be focused or flooded. Of course some sort of diffusion would have to be implemented to prevent eye damage. Just throwing out ideas.


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## jar3ds (Jan 27, 2007)

my new Mag85 with the FM 2" bezel has sort'a taken the desire of a HID away from me... dont' worry... i'm sure it'll be back


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## idleprocess (Jan 27, 2007)

Why is everyone looking to lumileds for the *next big thing* in LEDs? Did they miss the neverending Cree XR-E hype/excitement?

HID introduces greater complexity and cost as opposed to an incandescent, but buys you greater efficiency, a longer-lasting "bulb," a cooler color temperature, and less heat.

A great many HID systems on the market are based on the robust D1/D2 35W automotive bulbs and their associated ballasts/starters which feature hot restrike and overdrive during warmup to get the light output up within a few seconds instead of the minute(s) that a less-capable ballast can take.


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## Ra (Jan 27, 2007)

Idleprocess is right: 

Everybody can make a 500+ lumens emitters by combining junctions. The question is at what efficiency ?? 

For now I think those 500+ lumens emitters need to be cooled very effectively, because they will produce an impressive amount of heat!

But hey,, if the new emitters are a revolution on efficiency.. I would be very, very interested !!!

And as for HID: Indeed the automotive HID's are capable to withstand extremes, are very robust and have decent output within the blink of an eye !!


Regards


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## idleprocess (Jan 27, 2007)

Actually, using the latest emitters (Cree, Seoul), you can build a 500+ lumen LED flashlight using 3-4 LEDs. Heat generation will be signifigant (~8-12 watts), but managable if you use a decent host and pay attention to heatsinking. I have a modified maglite that has 3 Luxeon LEDs in series, consuming about 10.5W. It gets hot after extended usage, but the limited runtime allows for some cool-down.

Throw will simply not compare to a single high-output lightsource with a large collimator device since your array will have to use small collimators in parallel, sacraficing surface area and continuity. Throw with arrays is a function of the brute force of pumping out so many photons rather than the more elegant solution of collecting and concentrating output.

LEDs are starting to encroach on HID efficiency, but will likely not scale beyond single-digit wattage per die for quite some time. The huge throw-monsters will likely continue to be HID and incandescent for some time to come because they can scale into *5-digit* wattage per-part (and probably higher).


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## idleprocess (Jan 27, 2007)

Duplicate post. See above.


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 27, 2007)

idleprocess said:


> Actually, using the latest emitters (Cree, Seoul), you can build a 500+ lumen LED flashlight using 3-4 LEDs. Heat generation will be signifigant (~8-12 watts), but managable if you use a decent host and pay attention to heatsinking. I have a modified maglite that has 3 Luxeon LEDs in series, consuming about 10.5W. It gets hot after extended usage, but the limited runtime allows for some cool-down.
> 
> Throw will simply not compare to a single high-output lightsource with a large collimator device since your array will have to use small collimators in parallel, sacraficing surface area and continuity. Throw with arrays is a function of the brute force of pumping out so many photons rather than the more elegant solution of collecting and concentrating output.
> 
> LEDs are starting to encroach on HID efficiency, but will likely not scale beyond single-digit wattage per die for quite some time. The huge throw-monsters will likely continue to be HID and incandescent for some time to come because they can scale into *5-digit* wattage per-part (and probably higher).



I personally am bored by most LED's, including the Cree's which I have two of. They are ok to have for a handy keychain/pocket backup for minor needs. I want the throw & output of 900-1500 lumen Maglites which can be refined with FM's 2" Deep or 3" reflectors. I don't even like the large, even shape of the SF M6 which is so weak & diffuse compared to the maglites I have bought. I would rather get 10 powerful maglite mods before any more LED lights.


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## woodrow (Jan 28, 2007)

Just my .02, but I am tired of lights with hardly any runtime. This has included a couple of very bright (and heavy) spotlights I have had. My hid is only arround 400-500 lumans, but it keeps them for a couple of hours at a time. That is what I think makes HID's worth the extra money. You can actually take them on a decent walk. 

If there was a incan spotlight with regulated runtime and brightness like the little Aviator flashlight, I would quickly snap it up however.


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## idleprocess (Jan 28, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I personally am bored by most LED's, including the Cree's which I have two of. They are ok to have for a handy keychain/pocket backup for minor needs. I want the throw & output of 900-1500 lumen Maglites which can be refined with FM's 2" Deep or 3" reflectors. I don't even like the large, even shape of the SF M6 which is so weak & diffuse compared to the maglites I have bought. I would rather get 10 powerful maglite mods before any more LED lights.



Cool. Go to town. Too many LED enthusiasts dismiss incans without much thought, nevermind logic. I even have a few incans myself. There is something about that little blazing-hot wire that's being routinely heated nearly to the melting point of tungsten...

My main problem with incans is the cost of high-performance bulbs/lamp modules. Maybe if high performance came at a more reasonable price, I'd be all over them. But when a bleeding-edge LED costs less than a lamp assembly... it's a stumbling block I've had trouble overcoming. But since I see most of my lights going through a set of batteries once a year and my numerous NiMH cells self-discharging more often than being actively run down, I might start to recognize that dreaded _bulb replacement_ is not much of an expense.


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 28, 2007)

Believe it or not, with all the incan maglites I have bought over the last year....I have not replaced a single bulb or battery in any of them....and several have been used daily for 60-90 min walks for several months each. I insta flashed a couple bulbs that needed to rest for a while off the charger, but that was my fault.

As far as price, I have seen a number of palm LED lights that sell for over $500....but in general LED's have inadequate throw and lumen output for my tastes. They are like bringing a pea shooter to a gunfight. I will never understand the extreme enthusiasm for even the latest Cree LED's, when compared to even the small FM 1D Maglite mods with a 1166 bulb, or his new Carley 1500 Lumen bulb. Different strokes.


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## NAW (Jan 28, 2007)

LED61 said:


> I own a variety of nice HID lights and also nice incandescents. The only problem with the HID's is you'll never have the beautiful and even beam that the nicest halogens like the SF M6 provide. You'll also have a variety of colors in the beam. You might be surprised at this but my SF M6 with 600 lumens sometimes beats my Microfire K2000R with its 1200 lumens at a distance in the green. The beam from the M6 is much more even in light intensity and color.


 
Thats due to that alot of Incandescent lights have stippled reflectors. These reflectors cut odwn on throw to make the beam look nice. 

There are some HID lights with stippled reflectors but I prefer the SMO reflectors for maximum throw and lumens.


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## NAW (Jan 28, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> As far as price, I have seen a number of palm LED lights that sell for over $500....but in general LED's have inadequate throw and lumen output for my tastes. They are like bringing a pea shooter to a gunfight. I will never understand the extreme enthusiasm for even the latest Cree LED's, when compared to even the small FM 1D Maglite mods with a 1166 bulb, or his new Carley 1500 Lumen bulb. Different strokes.


 
LED is good for small flashlights. To compare the brightness of an LED to the brightness of an HID is just not fair. :naughty:


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## Handlobraesing (Jan 28, 2007)

35W HID has no real advantage over 100W halogen bulb unless the halogen doesn't offer enough runtime to weight or size. Halogen is preferred choice if it's used intermittently and left on for only a few tens of seconds.


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## NAW (Jan 28, 2007)

Handlobraesing said:


> 35W HID has no real advantage over 100W halogen bulb unless the halogen doesn't offer enough runtime to weight or size.


 
Well that depends. A 35W Sams Club HID can easily beat a 130W 15MCP Thor, a 100W Incan would only be easier to beat. That to me saounds like a great advantage.


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## GreySave (Jan 28, 2007)

I think the "is it really worth it" question is very situation dependent. I have had the opportunity to use LED and incans for emergency and SAR duty. I have taken a hard look at the Sam's Club HID. It IS impressive. It puts out a LOT of light and has PLENTY of throw. I can see many uses for this light, and my addiction is calling for me to purchase one. 

BUT.....In the majority of the situations that I am exposed to, the added size and weight make such a light a bad choice. Using my high power LED and incans, I can carry a few lights with different abilities and enough cells to power them for an extended period in with my normal deployment gear, even in a backpack if necessary. A large HID light adds way too much weight and takes up way too much space to be practical. Yet for others, your needs and uses may make even a large HID light a wise choice, and that Sam's Club light is surely a bargain.

The thing I really enjoy about these forums is the exchange of information. I know that there are smaller, more expensive HID lights in the 24 watt range that are better suited for my needs, and in time I may purchase one of those. I would never have known they existed if it were not for these forums.


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## mtbkndad (Jan 28, 2007)

Handlobraesing said:


> 35W HID has no real advantage over 100W halogen bulb unless the halogen doesn't offer enough runtime to weight or size. Halogen is preferred choice if it's used intermittently and left on for only a few tens of seconds.



Here is a photo I took back when I got my first 35 watt Costco HID.
The two lights on the left are 10 MCP 100 watt Thors.
Next is a 15 MCP Thor with a 130 watt bulb.
Last is the Costco HID.







Not only is it singificantly brighter. The brightness stays the same for the entire run time. Add to this the fact that it runs twice as long and the only advantage the Thors have is that they can be turned on and off as much as needed.

The Sam's HID's and Amondotech Illuminators are brighter then the 15 MCP Thor and lighter and smaller then the 10 MCP Thor. So I feel they are definitely worth the extra price.

Take Care,
mtbnkdad :wave:


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## twentysixtwo (Jan 28, 2007)

I think there will be a place for HID for quite some time to come, but more so at the high power levels.- I have a 35W converted THOR that I swear by, but I found the uses of my 10W and 14W HIDs a little limited. For walking in the backyard the hotspot really fried my retinas and the artifacts in the beam were annoying unless you went with a fairly high stipple (which then cut the throw)


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## mtbkndad (Jan 28, 2007)

twentysixtwo said:


> I think there will be a place for HID for quite some time to come, but more so at the high power levels.- I have a 35W converted THOR that I swear by, but I found the uses of my 10W and 14W HIDs a little limited. For walking in the backyard the hotspot really fried my retinas and the artifacts in the beam were annoying unless you went with a fairly high stipple (which then cut the throw)




I agree with you for my personal use when it comes to the current 10W and 14W HID's that have super bright hotspots and dim corona's. I much prefer my Mag85, my friend's ROP, or my Elektrolumens multi LED creations.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## Ra (Jan 29, 2007)

NAW said:


> Well that depends. A 35W Sams Club HID can easily beat a 130W 15MCP Thor, a 100W Incan would only be easier to beat. That to me saounds like a great advantage.



The 130 and 100watt Thor-bulbs are not projection-bulbs, so have lower lumens output. 

The 100watt bulbs Handlobraesing mentioned are the projection bulbs like the Osram HLX 64625 with about 3600 lumens output!



Regards,


Ra.


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## NAW (Jan 29, 2007)

Ra said:


> The 130 and 100watt Thor-bulbs are not projection-bulbs, so have lower lumens output.
> 
> The 100watt bulbs Handlobraesing mentioned are the projection bulbs like the Osram HLX 64625 with about 3600 lumens output!
> 
> ...


 
In Handlobraesing post he said a 100W Halogen bulb.

Now correct me if I'm wrong isn't the 64625 a Xenon bulb not a Halogen bulb?


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## Ra (Jan 30, 2007)

NAW said:


> In Handlobraesing post he said a 100W Halogen bulb.
> 
> Now correct me if I'm wrong isn't the 64625 a Xenon bulb not a Halogen bulb?



You are partly right: Its a partly xenon-filled halogen bulb. Some xenon is added to boost the lumens output. But still a halogen-cycle is needed to prevent the bulb from blackening, and to extend the life.

The discription on the box says: "Halogen Display/Optic Lamp".. However, the registered name for this type of Halogen bulb is "Xenophot"..

Regards,

Ra.


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