# why doesnt a big company start making decent LED flashlights cheap?



## mccririck (Jun 9, 2010)

There are lots of companies making high powered LED flashlights at the moment but they are all pretty small companies. Now surely a large company could put some money in and come up with an amazing flashlight totally undercutting all these smaller companies? Why do companies like Maglite and Energizer keep churning out not so good product?


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## Lumenz (Jun 9, 2010)

My guess is so they can continue to keep a high profit margin by using older technology so they can keep their thousands of employees employed.


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## mfm (Jun 9, 2010)

mccririck said:


> There are lots of companies making high powered LED flashlights at the moment but they are all pretty small companies. Now surely a large company could put some money in and come up with an amazing flashlight totally undercutting all these smaller companies? Why do companies like Maglite and Energizer keep churning out not so good product?



Large companies never come up with new amazing products, it's the smaller companies that do (after which they are bought by a large company).


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## Tuikku (Jun 9, 2010)

Biiig companies are interested only, if it sells A LOT.
To sell a lot, product must be very "mainstream", try to please everybody a bit.


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## mcnair55 (Jun 9, 2010)

mccririck said:


> There are lots of companies making high powered LED flashlights at the moment but they are all pretty small companies. Now surely a large company could put some money in and come up with an amazing flashlight totally undercutting all these smaller companies? Why do companies like Maglite and Energizer keep churning out not so good product?



Might not suit you but it suits them,it would take pages and pages of writing to explain it all,trust me I work for one of these leading brand(not these in your post) world wide companies and I have often asked the same sort of question.

I think you are being a little unfair on Energizer though,there product is very good for there intended market and there batteries are reliable.There key chain lights are a real deal for such a bright light for a real decent cost.

Maglite was my first proper decent torch and probably to many others as well and as you know from these pages they have thousands of fans still and many like myself are frustrated at some of there offerings but!!


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## AnAppleSnail (Jun 9, 2010)

What's in it for them? Companies rarely do things just because it's cool.


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## ElectronGuru (Jun 10, 2010)

Tuikku said:


> Big companies are interested only, if it sells A LOT



Excellent point. Mass production requires mass consumption. And mass consumers are not letting go of incan price points any time soon. Even 10,000 at a time, power LEDs cost more than the entirety of many currently mass produced lights.


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## kaichu dento (Jun 10, 2010)

mccririck said:


> There are lots of companies making high powered LED flashlights at the moment but they are all pretty small companies. Now surely a large company could put some money in and come up with an amazing flashlight totally undercutting all these smaller companies? Why do companies like Maglite and Energizer keep churning out not so good product?


At present they're churning out what the public is generally aware of product-wise and won't alter their general course until the public at large becomes more aware of, and unwilling to accept less than what is already accepted among most of us here as a decent light.

It doesn't make them right or wrong, but simply interested in keeping the bills paid with proven product and when it is deemed feasible to do so with something more modern, they'll join in offering more options.


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## Jash (Jun 10, 2010)

I can go to my local hardware store and buy a "really big torch with a 6v battery" at 2 for $10. They even come with a spare bulb, "BONUS!!!"

When I show my friends and relatives a new light and tell them it cost $50-$70 and it fits in the palm of my hand, they CANNOT understand why. Even after I turn it on and completely shame their el'cheapo incans.

Even if you could get something like a Fenix TK20 stocked on the shelves in a big chain store, people will think twice when they look at a little AA light that's twice the price of a 4D light because they still think bigger is better when it comes to lights.

Like all technology, top shelf tech will filter down to the low end spectrum as time goes by and those at the cutting edge (us) will continue to ask this question as we stay ahead of the pack.

Remember when a cell phone was the size of a brick and you only had 45mins talk time and only people with money could afford one.

Well it's the same thing here. In 10 years, you will be able to buy a 300 lumen single AA regulated light for $5 at the service station.

But by then, we will be asking, "Why don't the big manufacturers make any decent 800 lumen single AA lights?"


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## John_Galt (Jun 10, 2010)

Because, and this may be a surprise to you, but, companies like to make money! They exist for no other reason. If they set out to make a cheap product, and didn't worry about that pesky little thing called "profit," they would be non-profits... And then, what would their motivation be to expand, or make a new, exciting product? There wouldn't be any motivation to do what you're asking, so they wouldn't do that.


Expense is a big issue. As has been pointed out, LED's and drivers cost a lot, even in bulk. To keep the same price point as their el-cheapo incan. line up, they have to cut costs somewhere... And they are definitely NOT going to cut their profits to bring you a better product.


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## fishx65 (Jun 10, 2010)

There is no reason for a big company to make a new flashlight when they can just import a nice Cree torch, put their name on it, mark it up and sell it to the consumer. Energizer, Rayovac and Dorcy have done this for a long time now. Some of these are really nice lights: Dorcy 220, Energizer 1AA Cree and the 3C Rayovac Sportsman Extreme.


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## shipwreck (Jun 10, 2010)

Jash said:


> Even if you could get something like a Fenix TK20 stocked on the shelves in a big chain store, people will think twice when they look at a little AA light that's twice the price of a 4D light because they still think bigger is better when it comes to lights.



I agree with you. Until I got more into the hobby - I thought the price of those $26+ Colemans at WalMart were expensive.

Now I'm spending $84 for an Eagletac after I bought a $68 Eagletac the week before


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Jun 10, 2010)

Your first sentence refers to "high powered" led flashlights. You aren't likely to see that happen because high power leds get hot and need not only outstanding thermal management but also an educated user who knows when it's time to turn the light off or switch to a lower mode. Educated user and general public do not fit very well together.


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## gtwace (Jun 10, 2010)

Big companies caters to the mass market, and the mass market aren't flashaholics. Something that is considered cheap to the masses and works rather well is all the big companies is aiming for.


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## Archie Cruz (Jun 17, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> At present they're churning out what the public is generally aware of product-wise and won't alter their general course until the public at large becomes more aware of, and unwilling to accept less than what is already accepted among most of us here as a decent light.
> 
> It doesn't make them right or wrong, but simply interested in keeping the bills paid with proven product and when it is deemed feasible to do so with something more modern, they'll join in offering more options.



Dead right! The only points I can add are:
- Companies like MAG depend heavily on Patent Rights to protect their innovations. What makes many products pricey in mass market is licensing. MAG licenses nothing!
- It takes a long time for innovations to prove themselves in the long run. It's best to wait some years to watch the "cream rise to the top" and mitigate bad moves.
- Cutting edge technology is always nice to have in small doses

-


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## joe1512 (Jun 17, 2010)

The main problem is that just because you make a better light does not mean that everyone will KNOW its a better light.

If some dude needs a flashlight, they will have many choices. There will be grossly inflated lumen ratings and other lies.

Just because your flashlight is the best doesn't mean people will buy it!

If your light is 5 dollars more but has a decent cree emitter, then it will certainly be brighter than your competition that is using some crappy emitter with the same driver. But the customer doesn't know that. All they see is that yours SAYS it is brighter (just like the competition claims too) and costs more.


It works ok for a handful of manufacturers. Look at coast. They use marginally better emitters and charge 110 dollars for a 200 rated lumen light.


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## gcbryan (Jun 17, 2010)

A flashlight is a commodity for most manufacturers and consumers. They need a light to take the garbage out or to see how to fix a flat at night once every 10 years and any cheap plastic light will do that.

Most of those lights will last and not fail as well. Most people aren't going to pay more than $10 if a $10 light will do the job.

.


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## old4570 (Jun 17, 2010)

The larger and more established the company , the slower it moves .
And if they move to slowly , they will die . 

There is no reason Mag could not build a XP-G model with bling performance , problem is , do they want to ? 

One issue is batteries , there is no reason Mag could not get 300+OTF from regular C or D cells [ Lithium ] .. And for how long has Mag avoided cree ?

Is there a problem between cree and Mag ? 

One would think they would move with the times , but mag is so far behind its not funny [ maybe it is ] .


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## Zatoichi (Jun 17, 2010)

old4570 said:


> Is there a problem between cree and Mag ?
> 
> One would think they would move with the times , but mag is so far behind its not funny [ maybe it is ] .



I suspect they may just have a good thing going with Luxeon. They'll be getting them in large quantities, and the Rebel is impressive enough for the general public. Their aim seems to be to provide quality, affordable flashlights to the masses and they are actually doing that.

_We_ know they're not moving with the times in terms of the technology they're using, but the current LED Mags must be very impressive to non flashaholics, who probably think it's the best there is. They may also be aware that the minority who'd love to see Cree's in Maglites will just put them in themselves, and you still have to own one in order to do that.


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## Jash (Jun 17, 2010)

Zatoichi said:


> They may also be aware that the minority who'd love to see Cree's in Maglites will just put them in themselves, and you still have to own one in order to do that.



And this is why it annoys the bejinkies out of me that people on CPF bag Maglite so much. Yes people I know there are better lights out there, but...

Maglite has probably made the most versatile host ever. You can't put three MC-E's in a P60 host with much success, and your battery options are almost endless. Show me another way to get 400otf lumens for 6+ hours for less than $100 in a light that is both strong and reliable.

Plus, when you've got your kicking, modded mag, you get to say to your non-flashophiles, "O, you've got a mag too? Show me yours and I'll show you mine." Then proceed to drop jaws and hear the inevitable, "Is that an LED!!?"


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## Monocrom (Jun 18, 2010)

Let's see, High-powered, quality, and cheap . . . 

Reminds me of a sign I once saw above the door of an auto-body shop.

"Repairs done,
Cheap, fast, good . . . Pick two out of the three."


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## cckw (Jul 2, 2010)

mfm said:


> Large companies never come up with new amazing products, it's the smaller companies that do (after which they are bought by a large company).




I want to point this out again mfm must have a decent gig in a large corporation to have this clear of insight. It is absolute fact! I do contact work for large companies, I see that stuff and just shake my head.

Largest job I ever had was because one CEO wanted to stomp his buddies "(my trade item)" in such a way everyone would know his is better. That was 4 years ago and he still has the "X" to be envied.


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