# 4225 Lumen LED!!! YES--4 2 2 5--LUMENS!!



## DaFABRICATA (Mar 4, 2009)

I spoke with a freind in the industry recently.
He helped me to get a P7 when they first came out and 
he keeps me updated of new intersting technology.

I was informed of a new LED that will be producing 4225 LUMENS!!
There is a smaller different version that I will hopefully be getting
my hands on in the next few weeks/month that produces 2225 LUMENS!

They are pricey.
The 2225 lumen version sells for around $35-$40.00
The 4225 lumen version sells for around $150.00 each and has a 36mm footprint!
HUGE BRIGHT LED!

I doubt there will be many ways to get a great focus with such a large
emitting surface, but WTF!! 4225 Lumens would be insane! 
A single LED...4 large monolithic dies....we can only wait and see.

I wish I could disclose more info, but I was asked to keep the details to 
myself...but was given permission to release this little bit-o-info..:thumbsup:

I'll likely be making a bike light for trail use with one..:naughty:


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## Bruce B (Mar 4, 2009)

*Re: 4225 Lumen LED!!! YES 4225 LUMENS!!*



DaFABRICATA said:


> I spoke with a freind in the industry recently.
> He helped me to get a P7 when they first came out and
> he keeps me updated of new intersting technology.
> 
> ...



Defab,

What no 2225 Lumen EDC?


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## DaFABRICATA (Mar 4, 2009)

*Re: 4225 Lumen LED!!! YES 4225 LUMENS!!*



Bruce B said:


> Defab,
> 
> What no 2225 Lumen EDC?


 


Oh *I'm sure* I'll at least _attempt it_.oo::thumbsup::devil:


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## LEDobsession (Mar 4, 2009)

I want one!!!!
 (no just kiddin)

Thats automotive headlight material!


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## Edwood (Mar 4, 2009)

LOL, I shudder to think what the voltage and current requirements are. 

At least try to get it to work in an M6 :naughty:

-Ed


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## Zeruel (Mar 4, 2009)

They should implement Safety standards for the sale of this. It should come with a free pair of welding goggles.  :laughing:


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## eyeeatingfish (Mar 4, 2009)

I dont know about safety goggles... I think a flouresant bulb can put out that many lumens.

If this isnt a prank then this could mean LEDs will finally be made for room lighting.


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## DaFABRICATA (Mar 4, 2009)

I would not prank CPFers like that.
Thats just cruel.
However, since they are not available for another 4-6 weeks, I can't say for certain when and if they will be available.

Actually the intended used are stated as:

Street Lighting
Automotive Headlamps
and other uses I can't remember


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## saabluster (Mar 4, 2009)

DaFABRICATA said:


> I spoke with a freind in the industry recently.
> He helped me to get a P7 when they first came out and
> he keeps me updated of new intersting technology.
> 
> ...


There is nothing secret about it. Luminus have already spilled there own beans.It is right on their site. The kid brother to the one you are excited about already has its own thread.

This is from their site. 

"The PhlatLight CBM-360 is a powerful white LED capable of achieving over 4,000 lumens from a single LED package. The CBM-360 consists of four large, monolithic chips with uniform emitting area of 36mm2. It has been optimized with Luminus’ metal core chip-on-board technology, which produces a thermal resistance of less than 1o C/W. Applications include large diameter fiber coupling for machine vision, microscopy, and architectural markets. Large diameter fiber is defined as having a cross-section of 12-15mm."


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## DaFABRICATA (Mar 4, 2009)

Thank for the info!

I was only told about these in a conversation, so I saw no actual info.

Hope this actually becomes available


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## Zeruel (Mar 4, 2009)

DaFABRICATA said:


> Thank for the info!
> 
> I was only told about these in a conversation, so I saw no actual info.
> 
> Hope this actually becomes available



heck yeah....


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## LIGHTSMAD (Mar 4, 2009)

yipee.....cannot wait for these!


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## Phaserburn (Mar 4, 2009)

This might sound mundane, but perhaps one of these badboys would make a good lantern if adequately diffused. What are the power requirements?


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## Stage X Tuning (Mar 4, 2009)

DaFABRICATA said:


> I spoke with a freind in the industry recently.
> He helped me to get a P7 when they first came out and
> he keeps me updated of new intersting technology.
> 
> ...


:wow: any info on the Vf and mA?


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Mar 4, 2009)

Look here for more info

Should make for an interesting aspheric mad mod :naughty:


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## JohnR66 (Mar 4, 2009)

eyeeatingfish said:


> I dont know about safety goggles... I think a flouresant bulb can put out that many lumens.
> 
> If this isnt a prank then this could mean LEDs will finally be made for room lighting.


 
Show me a fluorescent bulb that puts out that kind of light from a 6x6mm die. I can see why you'd want safety goggles.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 4, 2009)

I'll take one in a P60 dropin, please.


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## StarHalo (Mar 4, 2009)

Problem: "No encapsulant (enables proximity optics & fiber coupling)"

That means it's just a bare die, no dome or optic.


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## Hamburger (Mar 4, 2009)

Yeah the mA Vf and efficiency would be very interesting for me aswell.

And a where to buy would be cool aswell, saw the CST-90, SST-90 on led news but havent heard of luminus before and neither saw anything where we could buy that.

And $30 to $40 sounds nice. 

Do you may know if the SST-90 will be available in the highest bin with 1000 to 1200 lumens? Or will it be like the Seoul P7 E-Bin and they start with B and C ?


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## znomit (Mar 4, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> Problem: "No encapsulant (enables proximity optics & fiber coupling)"
> 
> That means it's just a bare die, no dome or optic.


 
Theres a domed model there too. :twothumbs


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## bshanahan14rulz (Mar 4, 2009)

nevermind...


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## Eamon (Mar 4, 2009)

I'm struck by several things.

First, the efficiencies are level with the current state-of-the-game from SSC and Cree. [email protected] for 1000lm is 100.8 Lm/W. So the really significant thing here is the total luminance available out of a single source.

Second, this is not going to ge useful for bicycle dynamo lighting. With the current available from a Dynohub, I can do better with an MC-E or XR-E, and I do. On the other hand, I once ran a PIAA 55w driving light off of a 12v, 7.2AH LA battery and got 90 min of supernova runtime. I could get 7hrs of run out of the same battery, and that's an interesting thought.

Third, optics are going to be _interesting_. I had an MC-E behind a very good MR11 reflector, and the spill was too wide to be useful. The central beam was beautifully tight, but the spill angle was something over 90deg. I anticipate exactly the same troubles that manufacturers have had with the MC-E, as far as designing any sort of a tight beam. The required dimensions to get a good spot out of the phlatlight stuff are going to be challenging to say the least. My money would go on PO and Ledil, but that's just me.

And last, I've been sorta' thinking about converting the driving lights on my MC to LED. If I can find an appropriately sized aspheric lens, 3.1-3.4V @ 3.1-9A is alternator country.

Eamon


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## blasterman (Mar 4, 2009)

> First, the efficiencies are level with the current state-of-the-game from SSC and Cree. [email protected] for 1000lm is 100.8 Lm/W. So the really significant thing here is the total luminance available out of a single source.


 
Word.


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## csshih (Mar 4, 2009)

it sounds like that company is just making LEDs with bigger dies.. when's the real stuff coming out? 

like..the supposed 300lm/W Warm white stuff?

http://www.newscientist.com/article...ms-up-led-light.html?feedId=online-news_rss20


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## saabluster (Mar 4, 2009)

csshih said:


> it sounds like that company is just making LEDs with bigger dies.. when's the real stuff coming out?
> 
> like..the supposed 300lm/W Warm white stuff?
> 
> http://www.newscientist.com/article...ms-up-led-light.html?feedId=online-news_rss20


Thats "luminous efficacy" not lm/W in. Very different things.


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## csshih (Mar 4, 2009)

oofgh.

I'm not very clear on these terms, could you elaborate?

Thanks!


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## R33E8 (Mar 4, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy#Examples_2



csshih said:


> it sounds like that company is just making LEDs with bigger dies.. when's the real stuff coming out?
> 
> like..the supposed 300lm/W Warm white stuff?
> 
> http://www.newscientist.com/article...ms-up-led-light.html?feedId=online-news_rss20




In relation to that.. Check out what I've been making :naughty:


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## DaFABRICATA (Mar 4, 2009)

R33E8 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy#Examples_2
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 






A vial of LSD?:thinking:..:green:....:duh2:....:duck:....


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## R33E8 (Mar 5, 2009)

DaFABRICATA said:


> A vial of LSD?:thinking:..:green:....:duh2:....:duck:....



You know me! 

They are vials of "nanocrystals" i.e. quantom dots


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## saabluster (Mar 5, 2009)

R33E8 said:


>


You just had to go and tease me didn't you. What kind did you get?


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## StarHalo (Mar 5, 2009)

I had to look up "quantum dots"; I have to say that the specs on these quantum dot LEDs are phenomenal, one site is actually offering 5mm LEDs with spectral curves unlike any other LED.. This means you could have a 5mm LED light with a 5000K tint and color rendering on par or better than the Nichia High CRI units..

Is there some reason we aren't already using these?


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## Gryloc (Mar 5, 2009)

So, how does the stuff taste? What type of alcohol do you prefer to mix this with? :thinking:

So, if these quantum dots are so phenomenal, then why aren’t they already being used? If this stuff can be had by nearly anybody, and it can be applied somewhat easily (I thought that I heard members discussing how to apply it), then what is keeping it from being used in every day emitters? I heard about quantum dots for a while and know it supposed to work spectacularly, but I didn’t think that you could just buy a vial of the stuff. Where can I buy vials with carbon nano-wires, billions of transistors, and liquid photons? 

Anyways, I am excited to see someone able to acquire a sample of the single die emitter. I would like to see how the 9mm^2 die will work with various optics. If they work well with bigger reflectors and aspheric lenses, does that mean the end of the 3, 4, or 7 emitter Maglite mods? Well, 100lm/W is spectacular considering how much power is being delivered to this emitter, but I hope it is for the readily available, non-premium bins of emitters. DaFabricata, thanks for sharing your info. I am excited for you! As always, please keep us updated.


-Tony


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## LEDninja (Mar 5, 2009)

When the SSC-P7 torches 1st came out there was a distinct lack of interest on CPF.
Reason 1 - which online stores were selling them.
Reason 2 - much more applicable to this thread - is they do not have throw.
To get throw with this LED a huge reflector is needed. Maybe we can mod that great big thing sitting on the chair to the right.






Brightness wise Elektrolumens Firesword IV (4*[email protected] each) is pretty close to the smaller LED. The Data70 (70*[email protected] each) will still whomp the bigger LED. I doubt we can push 70A through these LEDs.
I do not think if we can WOW the hotwire or HID crowd yet.

Powering the LED up should not be that much of a problem. Most hotwires and HIDs are in the same power level.
Heatsinking that LED is a bigger problem. How to get rid of 45 watts of power fast enough so the torch body is below 70°C and the LED junction temperature less than 100°C.
Many of todays higher powered torches are already too hot to hold during extended runs.

Price-wise the small LED is very reasonable. I remember SSC-P7s around $30 when they 1st came out.


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## Gomer (Mar 5, 2009)

LEDninja said:


> How to get rid of 45 watts of power fast enough so the torch body is below 70°C and the LED junction temperature less than 100°C.


If a car headlight, then 12V thermo-electric cooling sinked to the radiator cooling lines.


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## parawizard (Mar 5, 2009)

I am using a 3500-3800 lumen binned 49 multi-die LED.

24-25 Vf @ 2500ma.


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## R33E8 (Mar 5, 2009)

saabluster said:


> You just had to go and tease me didn't you. What kind did you get?



I actually made them and those are my first ones 

They aren't really suitable for LEDs though since the excitation wavelength is around 305nm... 305nm LEDs are pretty rare and expensive... 

I tested another batch I made yesterday and the excitation wave length was about 450nm... The emission had a range of 600-750nm... I just need to tune the emission then worry about making it more efficient.. I prepared a batch today which hopefully I will be finishing and testing tomorrow..


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## bshanahan14rulz (Mar 6, 2009)

R33E8, do you have a thread or a web site or blog or really useful links about making those? I didn't realize quantum dots were in the realm of DIY now, i'm excited!


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## RyanA (Mar 6, 2009)

I'd be interested to see how this emitter compares next a incan with similar output like a mag623. Using a similar sized reflector.


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## R33E8 (Mar 6, 2009)

bshanahan14rulz said:


> R33E8, do you have a thread or a web site or blog or really useful links about making those? I didn't realize quantum dots were in the realm of DIY now, i'm excited!



Unfortunately, I do not.. Sorry 
I making them as part of a research project to make quantum dots for LED with high CRI..


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## purduephotog (Mar 7, 2009)

bshanahan14rulz said:


> R33E8, do you have a thread or a web site or blog or really useful links about making those? I didn't realize quantum dots were in the realm of DIY now, i'm excited!



There's a couple of papers out on how to do it- I think there was a published thesis from april 08? I referenced before.

I remember doing it in school- apparently the smallest crystal you can make is the most efficient  (and the hardest...)


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## LED Boatguy (Mar 8, 2009)

Huh. I'll have to try an array of these out. Whereas the P7 is a 2X2 parallel arrangement, these look to be 3X3 and parallel. Like the P7, three of these would run off of a 12V-14V system (in series) nicely. Linear FET-based drivers should not be a problem.

One 12V string of these has 27 1mm dies running. May have to switch from aluminum plate to copper for heat spreaders--what a cool problem to have . Bring it on!

Who is selling these? If they are in testing, and the mfgr is reading this, I'll give at least 6 a whirl for you. I have plenty of experience testing, and I know what a NDA is.


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## Wattnot (Mar 9, 2009)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> I'll take one in a P60 dropin, please.


 

I can put that in a G2, right? :nana:


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## IMSabbel (Mar 9, 2009)

LED Boatguy said:


> Huh. I'll have to try an array of these out. Whereas the P7 is a 2X2 parallel arrangement, these look to be 3X3 and parallel. Like the P7, three of these would run off of a 12V-14V system (in series) nicely. Linear FET-based drivers should not be a problem.
> 
> One 12V string of these has 27 1mm dies running. May have to switch from aluminum plate to copper for heat spreaders--what a cool problem to have . Bring it on!
> 
> Who is selling these? If they are in testing, and the mfgr is reading this, I'll give at least 6 a whirl for you. I have plenty of experience testing, and I know what a NDA is.



There is no rule in the world that LED dies have to be cut into 1*1mm squares and then interconnected.
Why do you think they just dont use a single, bigger die?


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## RyanA (Mar 9, 2009)

Money, I'd bet.


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## Alan B (Mar 9, 2009)

IMSabbel said:


> There is no rule in the world that LED dies have to be cut into 1*1mm squares and then interconnected.
> Why do you think they just dont use a single, bigger die?



Perhaps like SSC they are purchasing 1mm LED dies and making their packages from those.


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## LukeA (Mar 9, 2009)

Gomer said:


> If a car headlight, then 12V thermo-electric cooling sinked to the radiator cooling lines.



If an automotive headlight, how do you expect to control the light?

There's a few things I don't understand about these huge LEDs. The heatsink area is relatively tiny so the thing always runs very hot, and the light-emitting area is relatively huge, making controlling the light difficult if not impossible.


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## LukeA (Mar 9, 2009)

IMSabbel said:


> There is no rule in the world that LED dies have to be cut into 1*1mm squares and then interconnected.
> Why do you think they just dont use a single, bigger die?



A primary reason is imperfections in the wafers. If you're making 7mm*7mm dies, an imperfection anywhere in that area ruins 100% of the 49mm^2. If you're making 49 1mm*1mm dies and have an imperfection somewhere, you only ruin roughly 2% of your production.

There are also current spreading issues with large (>1mm^2) dies.


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## HarryN (Mar 9, 2009)

Alan B said:


> Perhaps like SSC they are purchasing 1mm LED dies and making their packages from those.



In the past, Lumileds led the "die size" growth when it moved from the "barely visible" ones used in 5mm packages up to 1 x 1mm. A lot of people didn't think it could be done as the yield would be too low. (GaN has defect densites in the 10^6 / cm2 range).

Their next move, while seemingly easy now, was to 2Ssp in a package (Lux V) , a major yield hit at the time to balance out the Vf and color balance.

This seems to be a real 3 x 3mm die part, supplied by Nichia. I suspect that this die size will become a new standard, but not short term as only a very few companies can build such a large die with reasonable yield. Just another way to separate the men from the boys.

At least at the conferences, Lumileds path is to continue improving the thermal path, efficiency, Vf, and drive current to more than double the output of a a 1 x 1mm die. I am not sure which path makes more sense, but clearly competition is helping us all - just like the AMD vs Intel processor competition.


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## Benson (Mar 9, 2009)

LukeA said:


> If an automotive headlight, how do you expect to control the light?
> 
> There's a few things I don't understand about these huge LEDs. The heatsink area is relatively tiny so the thing always runs very hot, and the light-emitting area is relatively huge, making controlling the light difficult if not impossible.


The emitting area on these is apparently 3mm square, or perhaps 4mm if it's actually 9 1mm squares. While they typically _look_ huge, that's because of the domes they're usually packaged under. Domeless packages are on par with most incandescents of similar output. As for the heatsink area, it's a classic engineering tradeoff: making it bigger restricts mechanical options, but making it smaller limits thermal options. If it's kept small, it can be soldered to any shape of heatsink suited to the application; solder's not _that_ bad a heat conductor, so I don't see it as being unreasonably small. But then, the baddest LED I've ever used was a P7, so no real experience here.

I guess I don't see it as a necessary problem for an automotive headlight application -- you have quite a large reflector space, so while a 3mm square won't be a drop-in substitute for a ~5mm long filament (or HID arc), I think it can do fine in a reflector or projector designed for it. Especially of interest to me is a reversed configuration -- since a dome-less emitter sends light forward in a hemisphere, place it at the bottom, near the front of the headlamp, shining back (and somewhat upwards) into an approximately half-paraboloid reflector. You could do a bi-xenon-like setup (with elliptical reflectors), or use separate high-beam lamps.


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## LED Boatguy (Mar 9, 2009)

Cool, they make em in colors. Doh! They are in DLP TVs. I was digesting the specs, and you could direct drive the white CBM-360 (4 90s in series) from a car battery . Shoot, you could even use it in a running car, so long as you use enough wire to keep the voltage <13.2.


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## purduephotog (Mar 9, 2009)

bshanahan14rulz said:


> R33E8, do you have a thread or a web site or blog or really useful links about making those? I didn't realize quantum dots were in the realm of DIY now, i'm excited!



Got the paper-

"Progress Towards a Quantum Dot Photovoltaic: Nanocrystal Deposition on Structured Titanium Dioxide Nanotubes" 
Kevin Emmett
Advisor: Dr. Sandra Reosenthal
April 2008

There are other papers out there that are referenced by this one- but this one is pretty recent and quite useful.


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## Ryanrpm (Mar 23, 2009)

IMSabbel said:


> There is no rule in the world that LED dies have to be cut into 1*1mm squares and then interconnected.
> Why do you think they just dont use a single, bigger die?



I bet money is the main reason. Plus, the ratio of cost vs market usefullness might not be as far off. What I mean by that is, it may be better to keep making chips more efficient/brighter, than just to increase the surface area.

I've had an interest in Sunlite products ever since I bought their Slim penlights for my workplace. Inside of the Eagle 8w, is a 1.5mmx1.5mm emitter.

Inside the new 16w is 4 closely packaged 1.5mmx1.5mm emitters giving you a surface area of 3mmx3mm. They have fine tuned their system to get these so close together that their is only a faint line separating them. I guess Cree has to keep them apart to electrically isolate them.


The new Diamond Dragon emitters are 2mmx2mm aren't they? So some companies are doing this, but the need for such high power emitters to be produced may not quite be there to cause Cree or others to jump that way.


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## KeithInAsia (Mar 24, 2009)

Here is another product that you may find comparable. This is the Rebel Spot 36. It can produce about 4,500 lumens with all LEDs populated with the highest grade of Cool White. Due to the drop in Luxeon Rebel costs, this item will price out at around $150 fully populated and ready to go.

There are 4 channels on this board. In this configuration each channel handles about 1.4Amps. That pushes each LED to about 460mA.

The inner circle is 33mm in diameter. That means you can fit the Lamina Lighting's wide, medium, or narrow lenses on them (their Titan lenses). And this unit has pads for up to two digital temp sensors. 

It's a copper based board with good thermal properties and it will sit right down on top of any high quality Pentium CPU heat sink.


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## monkeyboy (Mar 24, 2009)

Check out

http://www.luminus.com/

The 2250lm LED must be the Phlatlight SST-90 / CST-90 (single 3x3mm die) and the 4225lm LED must be the Phlatlight CMB-360 (array of 4 3x3mm dice)

The CST/SST-90 products seem more interesting to me as they have twice the surface brightness of the CMB-360


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## purduephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

monkeyboy said:


> Check out
> 
> http://www.luminus.com/
> 
> ...




http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM3433.html

There's the driver for it! 10-60A.


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## IMSabbel (Apr 25, 2009)

purduephotog said:


> http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM3433.html
> 
> There's the driver for it! 10-60A.



>90% efficiency, 35kHz PWM dimming, $2.50 in 1k quantity...

I WANT it NOW


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## Blackcode (Apr 25, 2009)

Thats amazing! 4225 lm is a lot. think when it comes out, real led lamps for cars, rooms and other things comes on the market. 

Im wait for it to make a brighter flashlight than the p7 is it, *har har*


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## bulbjoe (Apr 29, 2009)

7000 Lumens 100W

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/1-PC-BRIGHTE...h=item370097881952&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262

You need a fridge to cool that


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## clint357 (May 1, 2009)

Could you use the 50mm reflector and aspherical lens from DX to control one of these hogs? Does anyone know when these will be on sale to the public?


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