# UltraFire WF-139 overcharges batteries? other option?



## stockae92 (Apr 18, 2007)

i have read that the UltraFire Model: WF-139 overcharges batteries to up to 4.3V, which will shorten the life span of the batteries

what other charger option out there that can charge 18650 and RCR123 with auto top off without overcharging?

overcharging is equally bad for both protected and unprotected batteries?


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## mdocod (Apr 18, 2007)

it will only over charge your cells if you let it.


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## TITAN1833 (Apr 18, 2007)

take batts of charge when light turns green. and they will not be over charged!

and leave them to settle a wee while before using.


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## ampdude (Apr 18, 2007)

The WF-139 overcharges the batteries only in the sense that you leave them in the charger for an extended period after the light turns green.

It gives them a "full" charge to 4.25V like it's supposed to do and does a very good job of it. At least mine does. It does not charge at the advertised 450mA though, more like 300mA as others have observed. This is not a big deal though for such a versatile charger. Hopefully the charging current will be improved in a future version.


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## mudman cj (Apr 18, 2007)

I actually prefer the cheaper DSD charger because it doesn't have the annoying sliding contacts that hang up and make it difficult to adjust for inserting an 18650 and it doesn't overcharge. The drawback is that the DSD requires spacers to charge 50 mm long cells, but I use them as well with no complaints.


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## JimmyME (Apr 18, 2007)

Mine overcharges. If anyone thinks it doesn't, I'd be happy to trade with you.


If I take my batteries out as soon as the light turns green, they are 4.3 volts +


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## JimmyME (Apr 19, 2007)

A follow-up:


I've thrown my WF-139 in the garbage and ordered a PILA IBC charger. I did this since my WF-139 is clearly overcharging and I don't want to take any chances with lithium cells. 

I contacted the vendor who sold me the WF-139 but there was no effort to replace it. To me safety is more important than haggling over a $12 charger.


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## mdocod (Apr 19, 2007)

maybe there's some duds in the bunch. I pull cells when they go green and have never seen higher than 4.201V. Usually it goes green at about 4.18.

[EDIT IN] I am editing this post from awhile back to point out that I have noticed that DURING the charge (while light is still red) the cell voltage actually rises to around 4.3V... then settles to around 4.20.... more on this in a later response...


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## stockae92 (Apr 19, 2007)

so some do overcharge and some don't??


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## TITAN1833 (Apr 19, 2007)

So out of the 2 i have, maybe one over charges and one wont.must get a battery for my multi meter soon and test.


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## mudman cj (Apr 19, 2007)

I have read that they seem to overcharge unprotected cells more than protected. Mine charges AW protected 18650s and Ultrafire protected 18650s to 4.20 V. I haven't tried RCR123 or unprotected cells.


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## mdocod (Apr 19, 2007)

hmmm, the protection theory seems plausible, all my cells are protected.


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## stockae92 (Apr 19, 2007)

so charging protected cells should be fine [without overcharging]?

where did you guys get your UltraFire WF-139 from? are they not all equal?


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## AndyTiedye (Apr 19, 2007)

"Won't overcharge if we take it off as soon as it turns green" isn 't really good enough.
How often are we expected to check this thing?

It should TURN OFF when the battery is charged.


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## hank (Apr 19, 2007)

It's time to make a little circuit:
Photodiode notices when LED turns green
Sends power to solenoid
Yanks cord out of wall
With a backup circuit:
Photodiode notices when infrared temp exceeds 451 degrees F
Sends power to solenoid 2
Discharges fire extinguisher aimed at charger.

That's basic safety. People can't just sit watching for a little light to come on to remove power from a device that's going to be dangerous if they don't.

That's what went wrong at Chernobyl, remember? (wry grin).

Seriously --- this is why the Underwriters Laboratories tests devices.

No matter how smart you are, and how careful --- some day, the device is going to be picked up by someone else, maybe out of your garbage can, and tried out by someone less well informed or less careful.

If it's bad enough to throw in the trash, hit it with a big rock first, and send the parts to the electronics recycler, eh? There's someone picking up used and dead electronics now in most major cities free, just to keep the stuff out of the landfills.


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## nickz (Apr 19, 2007)

I agree. I was charging an AW unprotected 18650 the other evening in my dsd charger. I have a cold so I took some nyquill and started watching tv. Woke up next morning, went to work and about 9 am stood up and said "oh sh*t!" Got home from work at 9:05 am and pulled cell from charger and cell sat at 4.21v on my multimeter  ! I got lucky that time! 16 hours on charge!!


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## rdh226 (Apr 19, 2007)

AndyTiedye said:


> "Won't overcharge if we take it off as soon as it turns green" isn 't really good enough.
> How often are we expected to check this thing?
> 
> It should TURN OFF when the battery is charged.


Hearing the same thing, I ran an experiment, I charged up a pair of AW 18650s, one on each of two
chargers; both turned green; left them sitting there for a good 6 hours, pulled and both batteries
were in the 4.17-4.19V range, same as when I pull them as soon as the LEDs go green. I have a
third WF-139 that tends to go 4.16-4.18V rather than 4.17-4.21V.

I have a vague theory that 14500's tend to come off at a higher voltage (4.2-4.23V) than my 18650s,
but this theory isn't even _half_ baked yet.

I also have not correllated to room temperature (62F vs 66F let alone summer's 80F).

It is NOT line voltage variations as I run off a Furman regulator that holds 119-120V AC.

I really like the little WF-139 chargers, they're slow (read: "gentle"), sample of three behave nicely, they
run off of either 120VAC or 12VDC, and they handle everything from 14500 -18650s with aplomb
AND NO SILLY LITTLE SPACERS to get lost.

Granted, they are no Tritons, but I can buy five or six of the WF139s for the price of one Triton on
special closeout sale, and I can NOT misprogram the WF139 to overcharge a LiIon cell.

I _do_ wish I could set them to run 4.1V program rather than 4.2V.

I bought my WF-139s from AW, for what that's worth.

And I will further opine that people who say "mine went to 4.203V -- that is unacceptable" and who
cannot qualify that with an "on my calibrated Fluke DVM" are engaging in mental masturbation.

-RDH


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## stockae92 (Apr 19, 2007)

nickz said:


> I agree. I was charging an AW unprotected 18650 the other evening in my dsd charger. I have a cold so I took some nyquill and started watching tv. Woke up next morning, went to work and about 9 am stood up and said "oh sh*t!" Got home from work at 9:05 am and pulled cell from charger and cell sat at 4.21v on my multimeter  ! I got lucky that time! 16 hours on charge!!



wait a sec, so both ultrafire and DSD chargers won't turn off automatically when the battery is fully charged? they will only turn the LED to green or something and keep on charging? they would at least reduce the charging current to very low level, right?


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## gunga (Apr 19, 2007)

I have an WF-139 and have read a few things. Once the light turns green the charger chages to a trickle charge mode. It does a periodic test I believe and continues to slowly trickle charge. If you leave it a few hours, you can overcharge your unprotected cells. To my knowledhe, there shouldn't be problems with protected ones (since they are protected againts overcharging) but it's still a good idea to take the cells out once the light turns green.

No idea about the dsd...


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## mudman cj (Apr 19, 2007)

The DSD terminates charging when the light goes green - no trickle.


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## nickz (Apr 19, 2007)

I just checked mine to be sure and it reads that it is trickling at 10mA on a green light? I suppose it is possibly faulty. I have two others I will now check or is 10ma nothing to worry about?


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## gunga (Apr 19, 2007)

If you have teh WF-139, I believe that is normal. It is why you have to take the batteries out when the light turns green...


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 19, 2007)

Among these relatively cheap Li-Ion chargers:


The "In series Universal" type chargers" that was sold by Alin in the GB, and elsewhere on the internet is the most dangerous. It can be made to blow up your cells if you select the wrong cell number, and the lame switch in mine (before I threw it away) did not have any kind of a distinctive click on the microscopic voltage selection type to even know for sure which cell number you chose.
The second of those two "El Crappo" universal chargers that I bought from Alin apparently had an internal short because it overheated, started smoking, and when I came in from the TV room because of the smell, the light was still on, but the plastic was already deformed from the smoke & heat. I unplugged it and threw it outside. I'm sorry I didn't take pictures of it now.​
The UltraFire WF-139 is slightly less crappy, but still dangerous....because it apparently _(like many unsupervised, no name brand "El Cheapo" Chinese made electronics)_ has poor components and/or poor quality control. As a result, from unit to unit, it randomly has dangerously high charging end point voltage, combined with a followup trickle mode which is unacceptable and dangerous for Li-Ion charging. No one knows for sure if there is also a deterioration of components over time, or accentuated dangers (i.e. higher voltage termination) with various battery types (protected/unprotected/name brands) or variation among individual cells of each type. It charges at 600 mA per slot.

The DSD is the next best, and actually terminates charging when it reaches between 4.17-4.18 V (of the three I have). It only charges with 350 mA, but applies that equally to both slots if two batteries are charged....so it is slow. Many upgraded the AC transformer with a Nokia cell phone 800 mA adapter. Still only 400 mA per slot.

The Pila IBC (newer charger) is the best of these cheap Li-Ion charger options. It puts out 600 mA per slot, has name brand reputation, supervised Chinese made QC & components, 12 month warranty, and it terminates voltage when charged to safe end point. I forget what the exact specified termination voltage is, but none of mine has read higher than 4.18V off the charger.

Next best choices get into using a cradle and chargers like the DN/Tenergy, Cellpro 4S, or more advanced chargers such as the Triton, Hyperion, Schultze, etc.


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## nickz (Apr 19, 2007)

Mine is the dsd that is still trickling at 10mA for some reason. The other thing I discovered is one of them is only charging at 106 mA with ONE cell !!


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 19, 2007)

nickz said:


> Mine is the dsd that is still trickling at 10mA for some reason. The other thing I discovered is one of them is only charging at 106 mA with ONE cell !!



Obviously, you have a defective unit, and I would throw it away.

The old adage "You get what you pay for" certainly applies to these "El Cheapo" no-name-brand Chinese made products, of which the DSD is one. My 3 DSD's did not trickle, and they are not supposed to....so this is what happens when you deal with no QC cheap products. 

It was the same reputation for garbage products "Made in Japan" used to have before they cleaned up their QC. Now same situation with "Made in China" if not supervised by a reputable name brand company with specified components. Its why the Pila is a little more expensive.

I have never heard of anyone showing a Pila has a trickle charge error, or low charge rate like your DSD. Why? Because they actually have someone check to see if each unit is performing properly before putting their name brand on it. 

El Cheapo knockoff Chinese models could care less about safety or QC.


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## nickz (Apr 19, 2007)

Heh, I was one step ahead of you when I saw it was charging funny all the way around! This unit now resides in my trashcan where it belongs! Now to test the other two later this evening.


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## stockae92 (Apr 20, 2007)

i guess my best bet now is either the DSD or Pila IBC?

i think they charges both protected RCR123 (3.7V) and protected 18650


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## barkingmad (Apr 23, 2007)

Anyone recommend a good place to buy the 'Pila IBC' and who ship Internationally (UK) and ideally take Paypal?


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## JimmyME (Apr 24, 2007)

*PILA IBC Update*

FYI

I got the PILA IBC charger today and put my unprotected 18650s in it to charge. I left them in for 1 hour after the lights turned green and the voltage was 4.17v per cell. These same cells would have been 4.31 or 4.32 volts with the WF-139 charger that I threw away.

The Pila IBC was money well spent (for the sake of safety).


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## matrixshaman (Apr 24, 2007)

Well being retired I can babysit mine as well as mod the circuits. I've built chargers from scratch and plan on a better circuit at some point than anything I've seen around currently. Soooo... if anyone who is really throwing away their charger would like to dig it out of the trash I'll pay postage for it if you'll ship it to me. PM if you got one and I'll even clean off the garbage  
I actually have one of two plans at this point - I've got this great old engineering notebook with a lot of power supply and charging circuits - so I can build one from that with some IC's and fairly minimal components. Or I've got 4 Makita and 3 Milwaukee chargers that completely terminate when a cell is charged. If I can mod one of them to reduce the voltage and current and still shut off then that would be a good setup. But with any of these plans I still need a cell holder so that's where your dumpster diving will help out 
Lux - thanks for keeping us up to speed on this issue and glad to see you are working on a better idea yourself in your charger thread. This whole charger thing really should not be so bad as it is. It's not rocket science to build one that can hit a target safe voltage and then shut off completely. And still be a reasonable price.


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## barkingmad (May 2, 2007)

[bump]

So can anyone recommend a good place to buy the 'Pila IBC' and who ship Internationally (UK) and ideally take Paypal?


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## DM51 (May 2, 2007)

JSBurlys:
http://www.jsburlysflashlights.com/...rod&ref=Pila_IBC_battery_charger&cat=&catstr=


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## wooniris (Jun 27, 2007)

Will the 'Pila IBC' run on UK 240volt?


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## barkingmad (Jun 27, 2007)

wooniris said:


> Will the 'Pila IBC' run on UK 240volt?


 
On the specification on their web site it says:

_Pila IBC Battery Charger including 1 x AC/DC Adapter with US & EU pins (100 - 240 VAC, 50/60Hz auto-sensing), Carrying Bag._

... so would see to be ok for UK use.


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## jlomein (Jun 27, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> The Pila IBC (newer charger) is the best of these cheap Li-Ion charger options. It puts out 600 mA per slot,



Can the Pila IBC be wired in such a way that you can pump both 600mA slots onto one AW C sized cell, charging it at 1200mA? That's getting pretty close to the AW recommended 1.6A charge current.


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## bfg9000 (Jun 27, 2007)

Man, what's happened to this place? All this talk about throwing stuff away just because it doesn't work exactly as you'd like. In the olden days, some smart fellow would just take a look for the rest of us and tell us what to modify.

2.34k ohm delivers exactly 4.2v but I do have to admit if that non-solid-state replacement resistor ever comes off, the charger defaults to 15v!


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## AFAustin (Jun 27, 2007)

JSB doesn't state which li-ion cells it can charge. Anyone know?


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## DM51 (Jun 28, 2007)

The Pila IBC charger bays are designed to take 18650, 17670, 18500 and 17500 cells. 

The charger delivers 600mA to each bay, so it should not be used to charge cells which have a capacity lower than 600mAh. This makes the charger borderline for use with R123s, which will fit with an extra spacer, and 14500s. Bear in mind that despite some claims made for high-capacity R123s (1,000mAh etc) these claims are complete BS, even if it is printed on the cell. There are no R123s that have a capacity greater than ~750mAh. 

Always be careful when charging Li-Ions, as this is when accidents are most likely to occur. A sure sign of trouble is if a cell heats up during charging. Warm is OK, but if it gets hot, stop the charge immediately or it could explode. When cells get old, or if they have been overcharged or repeatedly fully discharged at high currents, they become marginal and lose some capacity.


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## JanCPF (Jun 28, 2007)

DM51 said:


> snip .... Bear in mind that despite some claims made for high-capacity R123s (1,000mAh etc) these claims are complete BS, even if it is printed on the cell. There are no R123s that have a capacity greater than ~750mAh.



So true. Actually I don't think anybody has ever confirmed anything greater than 650 mAh.

Jan


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## AFAustin (Jun 28, 2007)

DM51, thanks for the info. on the IBC.


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## musicalfruit (Jun 29, 2007)

So if I'm going to use just protected Li-Ions, will this charger be OK?

I was thinking that the protection on the batteries themselves will prevent overcharging. Is this correct?

Thanks.


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## DM51 (Jun 30, 2007)

musicalfruit said:


> So if I'm going to use just protected Li-Ions, will this charger be OK?
> 
> I was thinking that the protection on the batteries themselves will prevent overcharging. Is this correct?
> 
> Thanks.


I'm not dure whether you are talking about the Pila IBC or the WF-139, but with the Pila you will definitely be OK, and with the WF-139 you will be OK as long as the protection circuit is functioning properly. 

You should however not RELY on the protection circuit - it is there as a safety device, like an RPM limiter on a car engine. Even though the limiter is there, it doesn't mean it is good for the engine to be pushed to that limit the whole time.


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## musicalfruit (Jul 1, 2007)

DM51 said:


> I'm not dure whether you are talking about the Pila IBC or the WF-139, but with the Pila you will definitely be OK, and with the WF-139 you will be OK as long as the protection circuit is functioning properly.
> 
> You should however not RELY on the protection circuit - it is there as a safety device, like an RPM limiter on a car engine. Even though the limiter is there, it doesn't mean it is good for the engine to be pushed to that limit the whole time.



Ah, thanks for the clarification. I was thinking about the WF139 since it's so cheap and I will be only using protected batteries. So I guess I will just have to be watchful and take the batteries off the charger as soon as they're done, just to be safe.


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## gravityz (Jan 8, 2008)

i am currently doing some tests with the wf-139

a 1-1.5ohm resistor lowers the current to 250ma which makes it suitable for 10440

the voltage during charging however is 4.28 volt on the end(for 5 minutes)

on trustfire 14500 protected the charger protection kicks in before the battery protection
with aw14500's it is the other way around.

the resistor is not lowering the charging voltage

i think this is because the charge at the end is very low so the voltage drop over the resistor is also
when i get my 10440's i will test them also.
if the voltage is to high i am gonna experiment with a diode in series(GA 0,3 volt drop, si 0,6 volt drop)

this drop however only works when there is enough current running so it might be the case that the voltagedrop is way lower.


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 8, 2008)

I did some testing of WF-139 today too. (my charges with 340mA constant)
1. - it is overcharging to about 4,3V
2. - when the charging is complete, there is 11mA current flowing to battery. It is caused by diode and 700ohm resistor in series from charger Vin to charging output ( i think it is used to get back from protection state protected cells) I lowered it to 1mA, works the same.
3.- you can not change the cut-off voltage of this charger, because it is controlled via uC CF9444 (only reprogramming could help).

I will use this charger only with "good protected" (with cut-off 4,2V not the 4,35V) cells.

I also have this 1A 1x18650 charger from DX. It is better. It has constant voltahe output (my is 4,23V). When cell is empty, current is almoust 1000mA, then gradually drops until cell is full. (at 4,07V it was ~400mA).
But it is not recomended to keep cell in it long after charge is complete, because it still will be tricle charging it (some mA).

I think this one 2x18650 will charge the same as 1 cell model.


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 8, 2008)

gravityz said:


> iam gonna experiment with a diode in series(GA 0,3 volt drop, si 0,6 volt drop)
> 
> this drop however only works when there is enough current running so it might be the case that the voltagedrop is way lower.


 
It will not help, because it is charging with constat current from 12V. You will need moore diodes . Or maby there is need to place a voltage regulator of 4,20V before current soures. BUT then the charge will NEWER come green, and you will newer know when it is done.

Just thought - you could add a diodes on outputs AND make voltage regulator of 4,26V or two serial diodes on ech output and regulator to 4,32V. Then i think it could do the "right" job.

What do you think?


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## j3bnl (Jan 8, 2008)

This is the kind of set up you need :- 







Obviously the M6 is optional!!
This when it arrives will be my second Tenergy set up and I couldn't bear to be without it now as it does all the Li-ion batteries I use, C's 18650's and RCR123's with spacers.
Simply brilliant and worth every penny.


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## gravityz (Jan 8, 2008)

i tested with a si diode in series
cuts of way to early at about 4 volts
the same goes for the GE diode

putting a 2 ohm restistor in series will help but this will lower the current to about 200ma so charging will be slow.

alsi i did some tests today with cells ad now they terminate at about 4.25 volt.
the cells are not aging that quick so i might suspect that the voltage read is not that accurate

anyway 4.25 wokrs for me
i do not care if the cell only last 500 times. that means that i can use it for 1 year if i charge it every day(which i am not doing)




MatajumotorS said:


> It will not help, because it is charging with constat current from 12V. You will need moore diodes . Or maby there is need to place a voltage regulator of 4,20V before current soures. BUT then the charge will NEWER come green, and you will newer know when it is done.
> 
> Just thought - you could add a diodes on outputs AND make voltage regulator of 4,26V or two serial diodes on ech output and regulator to 4,32V. Then i think it could do the "right" job.
> 
> What do you think?


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## adamlau (Jan 8, 2008)

Just picked up two Pila IBC units from BOG


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## cernobila (Jan 8, 2008)

Came in here a little late but what about the Wolf-Eyes charger, is it similar to the Pila? I can easily get the WE here, the Pila is a bit harder......is there any difference and can the WE charge the 14500 cells?


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 10, 2008)

gravityz said:


> i tested with a si diode in series
> cuts of way to early at about 4 volts
> the same goes for the GE diode


 
Have you tried AMC7135? With it could be 0,1-0,2V drop. Just need to connect the "enable pin" to somewhere 3-5V on board. (i think same place where uC of charger is connected).

Another interesting thought.
- As the uC every second removes the charge and in this time measures the voltage of the cell, we could add a small capacitor on the input of the uC, making the voltage not to drop so fast (from V @ charging to V @ idle) by that it would cut off earlier.
- but maby doing that it will make some "loop" - charges to "V-norm" - cuts off - (added C discharges, voltage drops) charger starts to charge again..... it would be about 2 sec, what do you think.
-Then you had to monitor the leds, when it is "longer green" it is full.

Comments?


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 10, 2008)

Other i thought, i think usable 
to add voltage divider over the diode.
then you will be able to adjust the stop voltage.





perfect i think...


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 16, 2008)

Recently modified one charging channel of wf-139, i placed 2K pott around the diode (see pic in previous post), an now i am able to set stop voltage from ~4V to "factory default"  (by default wf-139 charged cells up to 4,28V - on rested cells).


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## gravityz (Jan 16, 2008)

did you check what the impact is on charging current.
i do not know the resistance of a diode when it conducts but this must have a direct impact on the charging current.



MatajumotorS said:


> Recently modified one charging channel of wf-139, i placed 2K pott around the diode (see pic in previous post), an now i am able to set stop voltage from ~4V to "factory default"  (by default wf-139 charged cells up to 4,28V - on rested cells).


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 16, 2008)

gravityz said:


> did you check what the impact is on charging current.
> i do not know the resistance of a diode when it conducts but this must have a direct impact on the charging current.


 
Charging current stays the same, because no load voltage form AC source is ~8,5V and if using external 12v psu - 12V. Diode drops ~0,6V when charging and for about 0,3V whet ic checks the voltage (because then there is only 1ma flow).
Charging current is ~400mA with 12v psu and ~250mA from AC outlet.


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## gravityz (Jan 16, 2008)

sounds like you have a solution there

can you take a picture of the mode you made?


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 16, 2008)

gravityz said:


> sounds like you have a solution there
> 
> can you take a picture of the mode you made?


 
I will try to take the picture after work, it looks crappy, but it works.


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 16, 2008)

The pictures:

cutted trace





unsoldered one log of inductor and putted in series there diode ant pot in paralel










It is temporary (will last forewer ) set-up, i made it to test my thoughts. Later i will ad the modifications to secont chanel too.


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## hank (Jan 16, 2008)

What happens with automobile battery DC (up to about 14 volts)?
Is some kind of protection needed rather than just plugging into an automobile DC 'cigarette lighter' socket for power?


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## gravityz (Jan 17, 2008)

i studied the photo's but aparently it is not clear to me
may be you can can post a diagram

it looks like to removed one end of the diode from the pcb
this point goes to the place were the resistor used to be in place
this same point goes to the pot.
the other end of the pot goes to the loosened resistor

if this is the case than the pot is not parallel with the diode

let me know because this sounds interesting


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 17, 2008)

gravityz said:


> i studied the photo's but aparently it is not clear to me
> may be you can can post a diagram
> 
> it looks like to removed one end of the diode from the pcb
> ...


give me 15min i will draw how it was annd how it is now.


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 17, 2008)

Here you go


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## gravityz (Jan 17, 2008)

now i understand

so you put in a second diode to create a stready 0.7 volt reference and divide this with the potmeter to adjust it from 0- 0.7(or whatever)

looks like a standard 1Nxxxx diode


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 17, 2008)

gravityz said:


> now i understand
> 
> so you put in a second diode to create a stready 0.7 volt reference and divide this with the potmeter to adjust it from 0- 0.7(or whatever)
> 
> looks like a standard 1Nxxxx diode


I added only one diode.
Yes, I used 1n4003 (witch was by hand), as i wrote previosly it drops less @ 1mA.

P.s. that first diode is there by default, and in series with resistor , it makes 10mA on load, not depending on charge state (charging or not).


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## gravityz (Jan 17, 2008)

did you remove that coil on purpose or only to make space for the diode?


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 17, 2008)

gravityz said:


> did you remove that coil on purpose or only to make space for the diode?


Yes i pulled one leg out and soldered the pot and diode there (in series with coil).


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## gravityz (Jan 17, 2008)

were is the 10ma current used for?
in the new situation you state that it is lowered to 1ma
if this one is needed to go up again we might try a lower pot like 220ohm with multiple windings to make calibration easy.


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 17, 2008)

gravityz said:


> were is the 10ma current used for?
> in the new situation you state that it is lowered to 1ma
> if this one is needed to go up again we might try a lower pot like 220ohm with multiple windings to make calibration easy.


 
If there will be no current, then there will be no drop on that diode, i do not now why it was made before (maby to reset cell protection), but in modified version there must be some current.

About resistor i don't know, it adjusts very well, and if you lower the pot value almoust all current will flow thru it and not the diode, and the drop voltage will be even lower, then lowest possible charge voltage will go up.


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## gravityz (Jan 17, 2008)

ok
just wanted to make sure you thought of that but aparently you tried this allready.

i am gonna buy some multi pots this weekend and try it out.


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## Oddjob (Jan 17, 2008)

I've used my WF-139 a few times now and both my protected AW and generic batteries read between 4.15v and 4.17v right off the charger. I guess I lucked out?


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## gravityz (Jan 17, 2008)

well the issue is not so much what the batteries read when they come off the charger but what the chargingvoltage is at the end of the charging curve
you can only see this if you hook up a voltmeter in parallel witgh the cell while it is charging
mine read 4.18 also but the charger is charging them with 4.28 volt for the last 5 minutes.

so
charger 4.20 volt battery 5 minutes of the charger 4.10-4.20 volt OK
charger 4.20-4.30 volt battery 5 minutes of the charger 4.10-4.20 volt Dangerzone might shorten batterylife
charger 4.20-4.30 or higher volt battery 5 minutes of the charger 4.25-4.30 NOT OK definately will kill batteries




Oddjob said:


> I've used my WF-139 a few times now and both my protected AW and generic batteries read between 4.15v and 4.17v right off the charger. I guess I lucked out?


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## J.D. (Jan 17, 2008)

Very interesting ideas here...

I´ve just put a voltmeter (not a cheap one) parallel while one of AW´s 18650 Batteries was charging.
While Charging the Voltage goes up to 4,25V then the protection of the Cells works....
Then i messured 11,6 V !!! between the Cell and the charging terminal. (With the Protection Board of the cells aktivated).
After removing the Cells of the charge i measured 4,19V on the cell.

So i think it is really necessarily to modify the charger :shakehead.

One question left:
how do you adjust the pot ? 
whith the cells in the charger and a voltmeter parallel ?


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 17, 2008)

J.D. said:


> Very interesting ideas here...
> 
> I´ve just put a voltmeter (not a cheap one) parallel while one of AW´s 18650 Batteries was charging.
> While Charging the Voltage goes up to 4,25V then the protection of the Cells works....
> ...


 
11,6v is ok, not there is the problem. And there is no point to test protected cells in this charger, thei will work just fine. 
I adjusted the pot by guessing. I turned trim pot to the middle and charged - measured voltage avter charging, and ther readjusted to get needed end voltage.


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## J.D. (Jan 17, 2008)

MatajumotorS said:


> And there is no point to test protected cells in this charger, thei will work just fine.


Hm... don´t know but i think 4,25V is a litte bit high ?
think the 4,25v are the upper healthy limit ...


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## Stereodude (Jan 17, 2008)

Do I understand this thread correctly that I need to watch the WF-139 charger and pull out my Protected AW18650's as soon as the charge indicator goes green?


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## gravityz (Jan 18, 2008)

this is allways wise to do but not the issue here

after the charger turns green it stops charging so leaving it in there for a while would be ok. i would hhowever not do this overnight because we do not know what the charger does if the batteryvoltage drops below a certain point.

eg: charger turns green cell settles at about 4.18 but if this 4.18 gets below a certain point than the charger might start charging again.
if you have a bad charger which does this rapidly this will be bad for the cell. i did not notice this behaviour but since i hear different strories about different voltagelevels it might be save to remove the cells as soon as you see that they have turned green.




Stereodude said:


> Do I understand this thread correctly that I need to watch the WF-139 charger and pull out my Protected AW18650's as soon as the charge indicator goes green?


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## gravityz (Jan 18, 2008)

yes that is no problem
this happens when the protection of the battery kicks in

the 11.6 volt is actually the open collector voltage of the charger and this is not reaching your battery because the circuit is open and stays open until you remove the battery.

i however can not remember that it was that high on my charger
i thought it was around 4.6 volts with open collector.




J.D. said:


> Very interesting ideas here...
> 
> I´ve just put a voltmeter (not a cheap one) parallel while one of AW´s 18650 Batteries was charging.
> While Charging the Voltage goes up to 4,25V then the protection of the Cells works....
> ...


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## gravityz (Jan 18, 2008)

another way might be to put in an empty battery and start charging
measure the voltage on the pot and the middle pen and adjust to 0.1 volts
if your charger was going up to 4.30 that it now should go up to 4.30-0.1=4.20

this will probably save you some time because your pot is allready adjusted almost right.



MatajumotorS said:


> 11,6v is ok, not there is the problem. And there is no point to test protected cells in this charger, thei will work just fine.
> I adjusted the pot by guessing. I turned trim pot to the middle and charged - measured voltage avter charging, and ther readjusted to get needed end voltage.


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## Stereodude (Jan 18, 2008)

Well I measured the voltages of 3 AW protected 18650 cells I charged yesterday right after and 5 minutes after they came off the charger (pulled as soon as it went green) and they measured 4.20, 4.20 and 4.21V respectively both times. This morning 8 hours later they are 4.19, 4.19, and 4.20V. From what I read in this thread, I assume that is ok and not going to damage the cells right?


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 18, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> Well I measured the voltages of 3 AW protected 18650 cells I charged yesterday right after and 5 minutes after they came off the charger (pulled as soon as it went green) and they measured 4.20, 4.20 and 4.21V respectively both times. This morning 8 hours later they are 4.19, 4.19, and 4.20V. From what I read in this thread, I assume that is ok and not going to damage the cells right?


Yes, this charger is ok with protected cells.


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## fa__ (Jan 19, 2008)

Maybe a very simple and efficient solution :
By integrating this thing in the charger, you turn any unprotected battery into a protected one:
*http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=549

But would there be any problem when using this board in conjunction with the integrated circuitry of the protected battery ? I would like to be able to charge protected an unprotected batteries without modifiying charger each time 
*


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## gravityz (Jan 19, 2008)

nice
only this stuff is probably allready in the charger

trhe specs state 4.25 +/- 0.05 volts

the wf-139 terminates at about 4.25-4.28 which is withing these specs

what we want is 4.20 and these things can not be callibrated


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## fa__ (Jan 19, 2008)

You're right, maybe a lower voltage calibrated board of this kind exist ...


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## gravityz (Jan 19, 2008)

i think every batteryproducer overcharges his batteries because this will give an extra 10% of charge
batterylife is shorter but hey who cares because then people need to buy batteries much quicker


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## hank (Jan 19, 2008)

> pulled as soon as it went green

Someone could invent a Rube Goldberg device to do what's needed:

-- photocell watches for green light to go on
-- green light goes on
-- photocell sends signal to solenoid
-- solenoid yanks battery out of charger OR power plug out of wall

Simple, works around the whole problem. Hmmm. Or, fix the problem.

By the way, if anyone's wondering WHY we worry about this kind of thing, the problems have been known for more than fifteen years, for example:

http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/risks/11.95.html#subj7
Sun, 23 Jun 91 11:47:08 PDT

Lauda Air disaster linked to potentially hazardous cargo
" The wreckage also showed evidence of burn marks in one cargo hold, a
phenomenon which specialists initially were unable to explain but later linked
to the watch batteries, the report said.
... a South African Airways Boeing 747 was carrying a cargo of lithium-battery watches when it crashed into the Indian Ocean on a flight from Taiwan to South African in 1987, killing 159 people. Last year, a
Cathay Pacific plane was forced to make an emergency landing after fire broke out in a cargo hold bearing a shipment of watches with lithium batteries..."

Aviation Today :: Lithium Battery Fire Could Burn Through a Cargo Hold
That is the principal finding of a June report of lithium battery fire tests. ... some aircraft fire detection systems are powered by lithium batteries. ...
http://www.avtoday.com/regions/mideast/2802.html


Good advice for anyone contemplating fiddling with a charger or anything else:

----excerpt----

In design or specification:
Do include protective devices such as diodes, limiting resistors and fuses into the
circuits.
Do not allow the failure of one component to create a dangerous situation. In
particular 

---> the blocking diode for backup primary cells should be made of
---> at least two individual diodes in series.

Do not join batteries either in series or parallel without first consulting the
manufacturer’s advice.
Do not encapsulate lithium batteries without first consulting the manufacturer’s
advice.
Do not use more than one lithium battery in the same piece of equipment without first
consulting the manufacturer’s advice.

----> Do not install lithium batteries next to a source of heat. 

----end excerpt-----
http://www.nerc.ac.uk/about/work/policy/safety/documents/guidance_lithium_batteries.pdf


And remember:
-----excerpt------

Store, and charge, in a fireproof container .....

Charge in a protected area devoid of combustibles. 
Always stand watch over the charging process. 
Never leave the charging process unattended.

-----end excerpt-----
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224632

and remember:

from the FAA:

“A relatively small fire source is sufficient to start a primary lithium
battery fire. The outer plastic coating easily melts and fuses adjacent
batteries together and then ignites, contributing to the fire intensity.
This helps raise the battery temperature to the self-ignition
temperature of lithium. Once the lithium in a single battery begins to
burn, it releases enough energy to ignite adjacent batteries. This
propagation continues until all batteries have been consumed.

“Halon 1301, the fire suppression agent installed in transport category
aircraft, is ineffective in suppressing or extinguishing a primary
lithium battery fire. Halon 1301 appears to chemically interact with the
burning lithium and electrolyte, causing a color change in the molten
lithium sparks, turning them a deep red instead of the normal white.
This chemical interaction has no effect on battery fire duration or
intensity.

“The air temperature in a cargo compartment that has had a fire
suppressed by Halon 1301 can still be above the autoignition temperature
of lithium. Because of this, batteries that were not involved in the
initial fire can still ignite and propagate.

“The ignition of a primary lithium battery releases burning electrolyte
and a molten lithium spray. The cargo liner material may be vulnerable
to perforation by molten lithium, depending on its thickness. This can
allow the Halon 1301 fire suppressant agent to leak out of the
compartment, reducing the concentration within the cargo compartment and
the effectiveness of the agent. Holes in the cargo liner may also allow
flames to spread outside the compartment.

“The ignition of primary lithium batteries releases a pressure pulse
that can raise the air pressure within the cargo compartment. The
ignition of only a few batteries was sufficient to increase the air
pressure by more than 1 psi in an airtight 10-meter-cubed pressure
vessel. Cargo compartments are only designed to withstand approximately
a 1-psi pressure differential. The ignition of a bulk-packed lithium
battery shipment may compromise the integrity of the compartment by
activating the pressure relief panels. This has the same effect as
perforations in the cargo liner, allowing the Halon 1301 fire
suppressant to leak out, reducing its effectiveness.”

Full text:

http://www.icao.int/anb/fls/dangerou.../WPs/WP.36.pdf


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## ChocolateLab33 (Jan 20, 2008)

*I mostly charge 14500 batteries in my WF-139 (protected and unprotected). When I put any battery in to charge it, I get a low hissing noise the entire time-is this normal? Should I be worried? I don't want to go *

*Thanks!*


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## gravityz (Jan 20, 2008)

mine is completely silent with both 10440 and 14500

if this is coming from inside the charger there might be something wrong.

my nimh charger sometime made a strange noise but this was coming from the battery not making good contact with the chargingpoints


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 20, 2008)

my wf-139 makes some silent buzzing, when leds are green (charger idle).


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## jirik_cz (Jan 20, 2008)

My wf-139 is hissing when charging too, but it is quite silent. My sanyo AA charger makes similar noise, but much louder. 

I measured 4.17V on 18650 cells after the charge and 4.11 - 4.13 on 14500 and RCR123 cells (all AW). So I'm satisfied with this one


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## gravityz (Jan 21, 2008)

maybee it is produced by the coils
i do not see other components which could make this noise
maybee if the ferritecore is damaged it will make this sound but it should be quiet when green 'cause there is hardly any current flowing.


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## adamlau (Jan 21, 2008)

I want to test and see if my two Pila chargers are ramping up the charge towards the end. Do I simply place my DMM leads between the charging battery and charger contacts and watch for output fluctuations?


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## gravityz (Jan 21, 2008)

yes put it parallel to the battery and put your dmm in VOLTAGE mode

i do not think you will see fluctuations because the voltage of the cell can only rise at a certain speed.

if the cell is low you will notice that the voltage will stay at a certain level for a long time
this is probable the CC state(constant current)
after that the voltage is increased as it goes into CV state(constant voltage)
the output of the voltage will stay the same(probably 4.6 volts) but because the charger is connected to the battery you will see the cell voltage which offcourse is rising.
it is this voltage you need to monitor as it gets above the 4.20 volt


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## gravityz (Jan 21, 2008)

the value of R1 is 10K accoording to your photo
can you tell mew what the value is of R4?



MatajumotorS said:


> Here you go


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## xevious (Jan 22, 2008)

So is it safe to say that if you use a UF WF-139 to charge your batteries, you should do it in a fire resistant environment and attend the charging until complete?

Of course, I do appreciate the overall advice of never leaving lithium batteries charging unattended--you never know what can happen. But if your chances of things going wrong are significantly reduced by a better charger... $49 for the Pila vs. $18.50 for the WF-139... $30 is certainly worth the piece of mind, isn't it?

I always think of the extreme situation... you're charging your cells but somehow you get distracted due to an emergency and run out of the house for a few hours... will the Pila IBC Charger cut power once the cells are charged? If so, I'd feel a heck of a lot better about using that instead of the WF-139...

Also, side note--what kind of fire extinguisher is required to put out a Lithium battery fire?


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 22, 2008)

gravityz said:


> the value of R1 is 10K accoording to your photo
> can you tell mew what the value is of R4?


I do not remember, but it was 10 times bigger than original value, maby it was 2,2k. You can leave an original resistor, but then there will be 10mA tricle charge after led turns green (oposite to 1 mA, modified).


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## TKO (Jan 22, 2008)

Just tested a pair of AW's 18650's hot off the charger and both measured 4.19 Volts.

Guess I got a good one:thumbsup:


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## Secur1 (Jan 22, 2008)

Well i think my UltraFire WF-139 just killed 2 of the extra Wolf Eyes LRB-168 cells i got, i put them in, charge them, took them out the second the led turned green, stick them in my 18650 tube moded D-mini and they only run for a few seconds, i got no volt meter handy but i'm fairly sure they are dead.

On the other hand i got absolutely no problem with the rest of the cells i charge with the WF-139 like 2x RCR123 and 2x 14500 which are AW branded.
Now it could be the WE cells that r of crappy quality... either way i just put down an order for 4 x AW's 18650 cells, 1 for my D-mini and 3 more as a backup for my WE Boxer 24 watt.

The problem is that after reading so many bad comments on this charger, i am a bit hessitant to put the new cells in once they get here....
On the other hand if it was defective, wouldn't it have killed the rest of my cells too ?

What do you guys think ?


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## Secur1 (Jan 22, 2008)

xevious said:


> Also, side note--what kind of fire extinguisher is required to put out a Lithium battery fire?



A fire is going to be caused if you have any flammable material near by, otherwise the cell is either going to vent if it's protected or explode spewing it's guts all over the place. In essence the explosion is going to be chemical but the fire is going to be based on what ever material is near by, now since we are talking about an electrical appliance water is out of the question so a simple CO2 extinguisher is going to do just fine.
If it does happen make sure you air the room immediately and try not to inhale as the fumes are toxic.


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## Tidra (Jan 23, 2008)

My Ultrafire too owercharge my 18650,....

what a crap, I also have 4x 18650 from Ultrafire, they clame they are 2400mAh, but when I discharge them with 500mA they last only for 3 hours,... and if I try to discharge them with 1A, votage drops imediatly from 8,4V to 7,2V,.... hahahahaha

I know it, I got it to cheap,.... hahahahaha


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## Hitthespot (Jan 23, 2008)

I just bought a Ultrafire 139 charger and received it yesterday. This thread has been very educational reading for me. I believe my 14500 batteries are coming off around 4.15 Volts when the light turns green.

Is this the perfect voltage? Or is lower/higher better?

Also what is the optimum voltage to place them back on the charger?

Thanks

Bill


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## MatajumotorS (Jan 26, 2008)

Here is link to other post, where is link to translated version of german syte about this charger and problem with it.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2331848&postcount=4


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## gravityz (Jan 26, 2008)

MatajumotorS 

i opened up mine and it looks the same as the one on the site you mention.
so yours is way different.

regarding the one on the german site

does R5/R6 limit the current
that resistor is currently 0,22 ohm.
so 0,22 ohm gives approx 400ma
1,22 ohm gives 300ma


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## gOhAsE (Jan 27, 2008)

This is a chinese site! You guys should be able to tell the diffence from chinese to european/american letters. ;-)

The german forum I mentioned has a photo of the second PCB design on it which you can't see unless you are a registered member.


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## gravityz (Jan 27, 2008)

so you obviously saw that picture
why not make it easy for us and copy paste the photo from the german site into this thread.

thanks



gOhAsE said:


> This is a chinese site! You guys should be able to tell the diffence from chinese to european/american letters. ;-)
> 
> The german forum I mentioned has a photo of the second PCB design on it which you can't see unless you are a registered member.


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## gOhAsE (Jan 27, 2008)

Posted the pic of the other PCB version of the TR-001 posted in the regarding thread:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2331848#post2331848


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## HiltiHome (Jan 27, 2008)

Here's a pic of the new PCB layout






From German Thread:
http://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?t=51750


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## gravityz (Jan 27, 2008)

looks like there are 2 versions of the wf-139 and 2 versions of the TR-001

althuogh the wf-139 and the TR-001 look very much alike on the outside, all 4 are different on the inside.


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## Dragonfueled (Jan 30, 2008)

Anyone know why the Ultrafire 139 goes into a slow blink.. Not the usual quick green blink when charging. When I charge my aw 18650 and its almost done it blinks red and green for the same amount of time. not the mostly red and quick green when its charging. Is the battery going bad or something. This battery does the same thing on two diffewrent 139's. Allways when its allmost done?


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## gravityz (Jan 30, 2008)

never seen that one before

maybee it is a warning issue
i have a nimh charger which does the same if it detects a defective battery.

i think it has something to do with the batteries internal resistance
if i were you i would pay close attention when charging.


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## Dragonfueled (Jan 30, 2008)

hmm maybe the aw is on the way out... man its not that old though... maybe 4 months?


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## Hitthespot (Jan 30, 2008)

DM51 said:


> The Pila IBC charger bays are designed to take 18650, 17670, 18500 and 17500 cells.
> 
> The charger delivers 600mA to each bay, so it should not be used to charge cells which have a capacity lower than 600mAh. This makes the charger borderline for use with R123s, which will fit with an extra spacer, and 14500s. Bear in mind that despite some claims made for high-capacity R123s (1,000mAh etc) these claims are complete BS, even if it is printed on the cell. There are no R123s that have a capacity greater than ~750mAh.


 
I was just getting ready to order the Pila charger when I read this. I bought the Ultrafire 139 and used it twice to charge my 14500. Third time is a charm. It quit working. Dead as can be. Checked the internal fuse and it's good. Emailed the vendor and waiting on a reply.

Anyway can I use the Pila charger on the 900mah 14500 Ultrafire batteries or not. How about the AW 14500 750mah batteries? I really would like a better charger and I'm willing to pay for it. Are there other options?

Bill


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## DM51 (Jan 30, 2008)

Hitthespot said:


> can I use the Pila charger on the 900mah 14500 Ultrafire batteries or not. How about the AW 14500 750mah batteries? I really would like a better charger and I'm willing to pay for it. Are there other options?


Thank you for your PM about this. Yes, this will be OK, but bear in mind, as I said in the post you quoted, that at 600mA, this is a fast-ish charge for these cells. You just need to be careful that they don't overheat during charging.


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## Hitthespot (Jan 30, 2008)

DM51 said:


> Thank you for your PM about this. Yes, this will be OK, but bear in mind, as I said in the post you quoted, that at 600mA, this is a fast-ish charge for these cells. You just need to be careful that they don't overheat during charging.


 
Thanks David. I will either buy this charger or the next grade up, what ever that ends up being. Going to do some more research.

Bill


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## Hitthespot (Jan 31, 2008)

After doing some research I decided to go ahead and purchase the Pila 4 Stage Charger.

I will post a mini reveiw here after charging some Ultrafire and AW 14500 batteries.

Bill


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## xevious (Jan 31, 2008)

Hitthespot said:


> After doing some research I decided to go ahead and purchase the Pila 4 Stage Charger.
> 
> I will post a mini reveiw here after charging some Ultrafire and AW 14500 batteries.
> 
> Bill


I'm glad to hear it Bill--I've decided to go with one as well (security, reliability, and safety are key and Pila seems to deliver). Flashlightz is having a Pila sale until the end of January (today is the last day!), so you might want to buy it there.


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## Stereodude (Jan 31, 2008)

DM51 said:


> Thank you for your PM about this. Yes, this will be OK, but bear in mind, as I said in the post you quoted, that at 600mA, this is a fast-ish charge for these cells. You just need to be careful that they don't overheat during charging.


The UltraFire WF-139 is OK for AW protected 14500 cells though correct? :thinking:


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## USM0083 (Jan 31, 2008)

Just charged a pair of AW 17500.

At the start 3.72 volts

After 2 hours on the WF-139 and removing within 15 minutes of the indicator turning green, one @ 4.19 volts and the other @ 4.21 volts.


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## DM51 (Feb 1, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> The UltraFire WF-139 is OK for AW protected 14500 cells though correct? :thinking:


"OK" is about the best I will say for the WF-139, and that is ONLY for protected cells. The QC on these chargers seems rather iffy. Some terminate at too high a voltage (should be 4.20V max). Others are reported as working all right.

One thing they ALL do, if you don't watch out for it, is to continue to trickle-charge after the light has gone green. You can end up with a significantly over-charged cell that way, and this will drastically shorten its life.


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## Stereodude (Feb 1, 2008)

DM51 said:


> "OK" is about the best I will say for the WF-139, and that is ONLY for protected cells. The QC on these chargers seems rather iffy. Some terminate at too high a voltage (should be 4.20V max). Others are reported as working all right.
> 
> One thing they ALL do, if you don't watch out for it, is to continue to trickle-charge after the light has gone green. You can end up with a significantly over-charged cell that way, and this will drastically shorten its life.


I was referring to the charge current being sufficiently low to not grenade the battery. The one I have stops charging my AW protected 18650s at 4.2V. I pull them off when the charge is over.


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## DM51 (Feb 1, 2008)

The output of a WF-139 is 450mA, and the output of a Pila IBC is 600mA.

The recommended charge rate for Li-Ion cells is 0.5C - 1C. The figure for 'C' is the same in mA as the capacity of the cell in mAh. 

A 14500 has the same nominal capacity as a R123, 750mAh. 1C is therefore 750mA for both cells, so the WF-139 and Pila IBC chargers are safe for these cells. 

The cells won't blow (vent) unless there is something wrong with them (ie, if they have been mistreated.)


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## radellaf (Feb 1, 2008)

So what's the deal if you charge them at C/5-C/10?

Inefficient, bad for life, or yet-another-cause for fire hazard?
The cell data sheets don't seem to have anything to say on this.


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## DM51 (Feb 1, 2008)

It takes a looooong time, lol. 

Because of this, there is a greater probability of a user leaving the charge unattended, and it is this that is dangerous. There is also the risk of the charge not terminating properly, as it is just creeping up so gradually, so over-charging can happen. 

C/10 is no more than a trickle-charge, which is not recommended for Li-Ions. This rate is used for recovering an over-discharged cell until it is above 3.0V, but not for normal charging.


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## SilverFox (Feb 2, 2008)

Hello Radellaf,

Li-Ion cells tend to be a little unstable at full charge. If you charge at very low rates, you spend a lot of time pumping a little current into the cell when it is at its maximum voltage. In some cases, this can plate out the Li-Ion ions to form Lithium metal deposits. These are very dangerous, and can cause a rapid vent with flame incident during discharge, or the next charge cycles.

Manufacturers give a low current shut off value (around 0.02C), and recommend charging in the 0.5C - 1.0C range. There is a gray area where not much information is available when you charge at a rate above the low current shut off value and 0.5C.

I am aware of several people who routinely continue charging until the charging current drops to 0 amps, and they don't seem to have any issues. I am not sure what to make of that, but I think it is safer to follow the manufacturers recommendations.

Tom


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## gravityz (Feb 2, 2008)

Tom.

the 10440's from ultrafire are rated 500Mah but in reality are around 300-250maH
is it save to charge these with 300ma since this might be 1C


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## SilverFox (Feb 2, 2008)

Hello Gravityz,

I don't think you would have any problems charging at 300 mA.

Tom


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## ChocolateLab33 (Feb 5, 2008)

I purchased a Pila IBC charger because my UltraFire charger was making a hissing noise while charging. It says use Pila batteries ONLY! Is this true or can I charge my AW 14500 in it without any problems? I don't know a lot about these chargers.

Thanks!


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## fa__ (Feb 5, 2008)

I think the pila is a good charger from what i read here an there, so i would use it for all batteries. For unprotected batteries, i'm less sure, anyone has an advice ?


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## DM51 (Feb 5, 2008)

The Pila IBC is a good charger for all Li-Ion cells which have a capacity greater than 600mAh. 

That means you can use it to charge 14500, RCR123 and larger cells, but NOT 10440, RCR2 etc.

There is a thread in the 'Good Deals' section in the Marketplace giving details of a reduced price for this charger, which may be worth a look.


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## cernobila (Feb 5, 2008)

Has anybody used the Wolf Eyes charger? Is it identical to the Pila? It is much easier to get in AU, that is why I am asking........


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## gravityz (Feb 5, 2008)

i am gonna modify one channel of my charger to make it a bit more compatible for the 10440

the 0.33ohm resistor is ok to lower the current to 300ma
the voltage however seems to creep up to 4.31 volt which is to high

i bought a couple of diodes (1N4007) and multithreadpotmeters of 2K

i will see if this will work
my only worry is that the voltage drop on the second diode will be to high(around 0.8 volt) so the resulting voltage will be lower than 4.2 volts
solution for this is to use Schottky diodes which have a voltagedrop of about 0.3 volt(and can handle 1-3 amps)

i will post my photo's after the mod(if i succeed)

please note i have a newer wf-139 type than the one shown by MatajumotorS.
mod however is the same


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## SilverFox (Feb 5, 2008)

Hello Cernobila,

I believe the Wolf Eyes charger is the same as the original Pila charger. I don't believe it is the same as the Pila IBC charger.

Those earlier chargers charged to 4.6 volts using the protection circuit within the cell to terminate the charge. 

Pila was sued when someone charged an unprotected cell on their charger and it rapidly vented with flame. They now carry a warning that you should not use their charger with any other brands of cells trying to limit their exposure. 

The Pila IBC charger terminates properly at 4.2 volts and follows the CC/CV charging algorithm that is recommended by Li-Ion battery manufacturers. 

It is interesting that while Pila redesigned their IBC charger to be able to work with all Li-Ion cells, they still carry the warning that you should only charge Pila cells in their charger. 

It would be nice if Wolf Eyes offered a charger similar to the Pila IBC charger, but I don't think they do.

Tom


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## gravityz (Feb 8, 2008)

well the modification with the diode and the potmeter did not work
it seems that the chargers measures but voltage and current and decides on this info to stop charging

a simple mod that did work is this

open up the charger
find the diode which is directly connected to the + pole of the battery terminal

desolder this side
put a SCHOTTKY diode(1N5819) in series with this one

Voila. before the charger terminated at 4.31 volt.
now it is terminating at 4.25 volt

changing R5/R6 into 0.33 ohm will lower the chargingcurrent to 300ma if you want to do this

i am done modding


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## MatajumotorS (Feb 8, 2008)

gravityz said:


> well the modification with the diode and the potmeter did not work
> it seems that the chargers measures but voltage and current and decides on this info to stop charging
> 
> a simple mod that did work is this
> ...


 
Me too ,i burned myne wf-139 for good, no more owercharged batts :nana:.


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## DM51 (Feb 8, 2008)

gravityz said:


> Voila. before the charger terminated at 4.31 volt.
> now it is terminating at 4.25 volt
> i am done modding


4.25V is still too high.


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## SilverFox (Feb 8, 2008)

Hello DM51,

Yes, 4.25 Volts is too high for long life, but it is within the specifications. The maximum charge specifications are 4.20 volts + - 0.05 volts.

Tom


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## hank (Feb 8, 2008)

Am I right that Pila only handles 3.7v, but is not switchable to charge the 3.0v chemistry cells? I think Pila only offers 3.7v cells.


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## mechael (Mar 28, 2008)

I've just purchased the Ultrafire WF-138 charger and 4 Ultrafire 16340 880mAh 3.6V RCR-123 battery. I unpacked two batteries and put it in the charger to charge them up. After a few hours, I come back to the charger and noticed the lights turned green so I took the batteries and check the voltage. The multimeter reads 7.56 V for both of the batteries!! I then checked the other two uncharged batteries and they read 7.10 V! Is something wrong about the batteries? I checked one of my new batterystation CR123 and it reads 5.66V. My flashlight is a Fenix P2D Q5 cree light. Is it safe to put the batteries into the light? Thanks.


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## Stereodude (Mar 28, 2008)

Your meter has to be wrong. The batteries would have exploded already if they got anywhere near that voltage.


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## WildChild (Mar 28, 2008)

mechael said:


> I've just purchased the Ultrafire WF-138 charger and 4 Ultrafire 16340 880mAh 3.6V RCR-123 battery. I unpacked two batteries and put it in the charger to charge them up. After a few hours, I come back to the charger and noticed the lights turned green so I took the batteries and check the voltage. The multimeter reads 7.56 V for both of the batteries!! I then checked the other two uncharged batteries and they read 7.10 V! Is something wrong about the batteries? I checked one of my new batterystation CR123 and it reads 5.66V. My flashlight is a Fenix P2D Q5 cree light. Is it safe to put the batteries into the light? Thanks.



I should check your multimeter before your batteries!


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## mechael (Mar 29, 2008)

I guess you're right. I over trusted my multimeter. I checked a new 1.5V AA battery with it, and it's showing 2.7V!! Anyway, I'm going to buy a new one tomorrow. One more question. What is the maximum voltage a Cree Q5 LED can take? If the battery is over that, can I just keep it at a low power mode, will it be ok, or would it still damage the circuit? Thanks.


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## Stereodude (Mar 29, 2008)

mechael said:


> I guess you're right. I over trusted my multimeter. I checked a new 1.5V AA battery with it, and it's showing 2.7V!! Anyway, I'm going to buy a new one tomorrow. One more question. What is the maximum voltage a Cree Q5 LED can take? If the battery is over that, can I just keep it at a low power mode, will it be ok, or would it still damage the circuit? Thanks.


You might want to see about replacing the batteries in the meter before buying another one.


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## hank (Mar 29, 2008)

The Pila IBC pointed to above (still on sale through March) says it handles

"Pila rechargeable batteries (600P, 600S, 300P, and 300S)"

Which generic li-ion batteries does it work with?


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## glenda17 (Mar 29, 2008)

hank said:


> The Pila IBC pointed to above (still on sale through March) says it handles
> 
> "Pila rechargeable batteries (600P, 600S, 300P, and 300S)"
> 
> Which generic li-ion batteries does it work with?


 
17670 and 18650, IMO it is to hot to use on RCR123A's.


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## Norm (Mar 29, 2008)

For the first time to day I charged an unprotected cell in my Wolf-Eyes charger model CH-02 and the cell was overcharged when the green light came on, as SilverFox stated


> Those earlier chargers charged to 4.6 volts using the protection circuit within the cell to terminate the charge.


I'd like to invested in a charger that is totally safe for all my Lithium Ion batteries protected and non protected. It is too easy to forget you have batteries charging and get up and walk away. 
What am I going to buy?
What do you guys think of this http://www.batteryjunction.com/temilibachwl.html


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## LEDAdd1ct (Sep 10, 2008)

glenda17 said:


> 17670 and 18650, IMO it is to hot to use on RCR123A's.




Does anyone else share this view?

I was considering purchasing AW RCR123A and charging them in my Pila IBC with spacers, but I am always concerned about "vent with flame."


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## DM51 (Sep 10, 2008)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> Does anyone else share this view?
> 
> I was considering purchasing AW RCR123A and charging them in my Pila IBC with spacers, but I am always concerned about "vent with flame."


AW's RCR123 cells are 750mAh capacity. The Pila IBC charges at 600mA per bay, so the charge rate is less than 1C and therefore OK.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Sep 10, 2008)

DM51 said:


> AW's RCR123 cells are 750mAh capacity. The Pila IBC charges at 600mA per bay, so the charge rate is less than 1C and therefore OK.




Okay, thank you DM51. That was the impression I had been getting, that less than 1*C was okay, but I didn't know if those 150mA were "cutting it close." I don't/didn't want to take any chances with things going  in a bad way.


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## 1dash1 (Sep 11, 2008)

My WF-139 seems to terminate okay for 18650's at around 4.20 volts, both protected and unprotected cells. I'll leave them in the charger for up to an hour after turning green.

I'm much more careful with the 16340's and 14500's. I try to pull them out immediately after they turn green.

I was a little slow tonight pulling out a single 14500 charging alone. It may have been green for up to 45 minutes. When I pulled it off, it read 4.27 volts. Ran it on one of my flashlights until it got down to 4.20 before putting it away.

_Note: I've always had my chargers hooked up to a timer as a precaution against extended trickle charging._

_However, with all the discussion lately about the WF-139's inconsistent behavior, I've tried to tighten up the termination to minutes, instead of hours. And I'm measuring the voltage of every cell as it comes off the charger. :candle:_


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## LEDAdd1ct (Sep 11, 2008)

1dash1 said:


> _Note: I've always had my chargers hooked up to a timer as a precaution against extended trickle charging._
> 
> _However, with all the discussion lately about the WF-139's inconsistent behavior, I've tried to tighten up the termination to minutes, instead of hours. And I'm measuring the voltage of every cell as it comes off the charger. :candle:_



Why not take advantage of the current sale on the Pila charger, and stop worrying for good?


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## 1dash1 (Sep 12, 2008)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> Why not take advantage of the current sale on the Pila charger, and stop worrying for good?


 
*Even if I picked up the Pila, I wouldn't stop worrying.* 

_For now, I'd rather spend the money on improving the quality of my inventory of cells, than on a better charger._

_And my wishful thinking is that the next generation of chargers is just around the corner: cheaper, more reliable, and able to accommodate a wider range of cells._


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## LEDAdd1ct (Sep 12, 2008)

To each his or her own.


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## 1dash1 (Oct 16, 2008)

With the help of LEDAdd1ct's prodding, I picked up the Pila charger.

I'm pleased to report that the Pila terminates much more consistently than the WF-139. I especially like the reset button to top off cells.

_But it hasn't changed any of my precautionary habits:_
_- Check voltages before and after charging._
_- Hook up timer to automatically shut off power at a pre-set time._
_- Only use the charger when I'm at home (supervision)._
_- Store each charged cell in individual plastic container._
_- Label each cell so that they are individually identifiable._
_- Rotate stock._

_I've been toying with the idea of using acrylic paints to give each one of them a unique identity - maybe paint little faces on them!_

_If I ever get to the point of christening them with names or if they start talking back to me, I think I'll give up this hobby. :laughing:_


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## LEDAdd1ct (Oct 17, 2008)

I'm glad it is working for you! It is always wise to be cautious. And let us all know if the cells begin speaking to you...


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## RobertM (Nov 29, 2008)

I just got my WF-139 today from DX and just finished charging my AW 3300mAh "C" cell. Hot off the charger, the battery is showing 4.23v. Is this too high? Should I be concerned about this?

Thanks in advance everyone!
Robert


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## Ziemas (Nov 29, 2008)

There is a thread on DX about fake WF-139 chargers, which leads me to ask if the people who are having overcharging problems all got their chargers from DX or Kai, or did they get them from AW or some of the US/UK based sellers? 

Here's the DX link: http://www.dealextreme.com/forums/Default.dx/sku.1251~threadid.206189


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## RobertM (Nov 29, 2008)

Ziemas said:


> There is a thread on DX about fake WF-139 chargers, which leads me to ask if the people who are having overcharging problems all got their chargers from DX or Kai, or did they get them from AW or some of the US/UK based sellers?
> 
> Here's the DX link: http://www.dealextreme.com/forums/Default.dx/sku.1251~threadid.206189



I just looked at the link you provided and compared mine to the pictures of the real and fake ones. Mine definitely looks to be a real one.

My reading of 4.23v was taken immediately after removing it from charging. I also checked it again about 10 minutes later and it read 4.21v.

In your opinion, are these acceptable post-charging voltages? Should I be concerned or try to return it to DX?

Thanks,
Robert


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## SilverFox (Nov 29, 2008)

Hello Robert,

The specification for charging Li-Ion cells calls for charging to 4.2 volts + or - 0.05 volts. You are within that specification.

On the other hand, many of us prefer that our cells never exceed 4.200 volts during any part of the charge. We expect longer cycle life as a result of this.

You are within specifications, but are not being real kind to your cells concerning cycle life.

Tom


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## Ziemas (Nov 30, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Robert,
> 
> The specification for charging Li-Ion cells calls for charging to 4.2 volts + or - 0.05 volts. You are within that specification.
> 
> ...


Tom, 

If I recall correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong) the cycle life of Li-ion cells is 3 years or 500 charge cycles, which of course is much less than one gets with other rechargeable chemistries. The long and the short of it being that the cells will have to be replaced in a short amount of time anyway.

Being new to Li-ion cells I'm curious to know just how much real world damage a charger terminating within spec, but over 4.200 volts would really cause to the cells? 

As I live in Europe, I can't easily get a Pila charger for under $100 after shipping, taxes, and duties, although I can get a WF-139 for about $18 from AW. Is it really cost effective in terms of possible cell damage for someone in my position to go for the Plia charger over the WF-139? (I use my lights mostly for cycling, and charge once every day or two.) 

Thanks. 

Z.


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## Mr Happy (Nov 30, 2008)

Three years or 500 cycles is pretty good for most chemistries. It is by no means much less than alternatives such as NiMH.

The extent to which cell life is shortened is proportional to how long the cells remain at higher voltages. So if you charge them up to 4.2 V but use them very soon so they don't remain at that voltage for a long time, that is better than charging them to 4.2 V and storing them that way. There is nothing magic about 4.200 V precisely. 4.1 V is better and 4.3 V is worse, with an infinite range in between. 4.2 V is chosen as a nominal spec as it provides a reasonable balance between maximum capacity and maximum lifetime.

I think if you use your lights every day for cycling during the winter, and if you get a season or two's use out of the cells before needing to replace them, that is good performance and good value. If you did better than that it seems like it would be a bonus.


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## Stromberg (Nov 30, 2008)

Ziemas said:


> As I live in Europe, I can't easily get a Pila charger for under $100 after shipping, taxes, and duties, although I can get a WF-139 for about $18 from AW. Is it really cost effective in terms of possible cell damage for someone in my position to go for the Plia charger over the WF-139? (I use my lights mostly for cycling, and charge once every day or two.)
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Z.



+1. 

I've been going back and forth about buying WF-139 for some time now, since it ain't too inexpensive to get Pila charger here in Finland. I'd happily invest maybe 50-70$ in charger itself but after postal fees and customs, the price gets just too high. If somebody could confirm that the 4.23V doesn't shorten the cell life _significantly_ I just might get the WF-139.


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## Ziemas (Nov 30, 2008)

Stromberg said:


> +1.
> 
> I've been going back and forth about buying WF-139 for some time now, since it ain't too inexpensive to get Pila charger here in Finland. I'd happily invest maybe 50-70$ in charger itself but after postal fees and customs, the price gets just too high. If somebody could confirm that the 4.23V doesn't shorten the cell life _significantly_ I just might get the WF-139.


I wrote to PliaUSA and they actually told me that there is a Finnish dealer who sells Plia chargers. I wrote to him about ordering a charger, but he hasn't written back to me. If you'd like I can PM you his contact info.


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## Stromberg (Nov 30, 2008)

Ziemas said:


> If you'd like I can PM you his contact info.



Yes please!


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## AFAustin (Nov 30, 2008)

FWIW, I've been using an UF WF-139 for a couple of years and have been very happy with it. Different of my li-ion cells charge to different levels with it---with some the green light comes on at 4.13v, and with others not till 4.18 or 4.19v. If I leave a cell on for a while after the green light appears, it will typically charge up just a bit more. I don't believe I've ever had a cell charge beyond about 4.20v, even when I've been bad and forgot about it being on the charger for an extra hour or two.


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## Jauno (Dec 1, 2008)

N/A


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## RobertM (Dec 1, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Robert,
> 
> The specification for charging Li-Ion cells calls for charging to 4.2 volts + or - 0.05 volts. You are within that specification.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info Silverfox! I'll probably keep an eye on the charge level with my DMM when charging. I'm glad to hear that it is within spec and wouldn't be the end of the world if I accidently let it charge to 4.23v on occasion. Is it more harmful if left at 4.23v (storing) rather than immediately throwing it in my light and using it for a minute or so?

Thanks again,
Robert


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## LiteTheWay (Dec 1, 2008)

FWIW, my WF-139 came from DX early this year and charges my cells to 4.16 - 4.18 but I never leave my cells on after the green light comes on.

But I have bought a Pila following the advice here.


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## SilverFox (Dec 1, 2008)

Hello Robert,

The "experts" say that the best care is to store Li-Ion cells at around half full. On the other hand, lots of people have stored cells fully charged and report that their cells seem to work in spite of these storage conditions.

I have not done any tests on this, but tend to agree with the "experts."

Tom


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## Stromberg (Dec 3, 2008)

Ziemas said:


> I wrote to him about ordering a charger, but he hasn't written back to me. If you'd like I can PM you his contact info.



Well, he hasn't written to me back either. I sent email last sunday and no reply so far. On the other hand person from BugoutGear replied next day after my email, so there's some fine example of good customer service. I would of bought Pila from Bugout but total price with insured delivery would of gone well beyond customs limit so I had to pass. Then I ordered AW-139 from 7777. Hope that I get the good specimen..


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## Ziemas (Dec 3, 2008)

Stromberg said:


> Well, he hasn't written to me back either. I sent email last sunday and no reply so far. On the other hand person from BugoutGear replied next day after my email, so there's some fine example of good customer service. I would of bought Pila from Bugout but total price with insured delivery would of gone well beyond customs limit so I had to pass. Then I ordered AW-139 from 7777. Hope that I get the good specimen..


Thanks for the update. It's totally bizarre that they wouldn't write back. Their level of customer service sure doesn't inspire confidence.

I saw their address webshop in another thread, here's it is: http://www.soimport.com/verkkokauppa/products.php?g1=33937e&g2=ca39e2


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## TITAN1833 (Dec 3, 2008)

I have also been using the WF-139 charger for a couple of years+ during that time one failed and AW immediately dispatched a new one,I think the first one lasted about 10 months :thinking:I also remove after the green light but again I have left it longer with no bad charging between 4.13 to 4.18.


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## Stromberg (Dec 3, 2008)

Ziemas said:


> Thanks for the update. It's totally bizarre that they wouldn't write back. Their level of customer service sure doesn't inspire confidence.
> 
> I saw their address webshop in another thread, here's it is: http://www.soimport.com/verkkokauppa/products.php?g1=33937e&g2=ca39e2



+1. 

Although there might be some good explanation why they have not yet answered, their customer service made me buying from other store.


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## Black Rose (Dec 7, 2008)

Ziemas said:


> There is a thread on DX about fake WF-139 chargers, which leads me to ask if the people who are having overcharging problems all got their chargers from DX or Kai, or did they get them from AW or some of the US/UK based sellers?


I was going to order a WF-139 but after reading that thread I didn't bother.

Without knowing if it's: 
a) true. 
b) limited to only DX sold units. 
c) a supply chain issue and all potential sellers are affected.

I'm not ordering one.


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## darkzero (Dec 7, 2008)

There must be different versions of these. I've read all these threads about overcharging but didn't cease to stop using mine. I've only been using protected cells & since the cell cuts off at 4.1v I never worried about it. 

Then I got some IMR16340. In my charger these unprotected cells cut off at 4.19v. I've left them in for about 1/2 hour after the green light has came on. They still measured 4.19v. 

I had a cheap china li-ion go bad (won't charge anymore). I removed the protection circuit & threw them in my charger. They never went over 4.20v.

I obviously won't say that it is a good charger but I won't say mine is bad either. For the money I am very happy with mine. I even use it to charge my AW C li-ions but they take forever to charge when close to fully depleted.


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## Ziemas (Dec 7, 2008)

Black Rose said:


> I was going to order a WF-139 but after reading that thread I didn't bother.
> 
> Without knowing if it's:
> a) true.
> ...


I'm willing to bet it mainly a DX issue. I recently (this week) received on from AW that is real and terminates just fine. I have no doubt that the ones from AW are real, and if for some strange reason one was not, which I highly doubt as he prides himself on quality and honesty, he'd make it right.


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## Nake (Dec 7, 2008)

The WF-139 I bought from DX a couple of years ago shows 10.9V empty and has charged unprotected cells to 4.25V. I bought another one from DX about a year ago as back-up and checked it after reading this thread a couple of weeks ago. It shows 5.0V empty. It has not charged a cell past 4.19V since I started using it as my primary charger.

Maybe it was just a bad batch from Ultra-fire. :shrug:


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## Yoda4561 (Dec 22, 2008)

I think I got a good one. Ordered from lighthound, got it today. Open voltage is 4.82, right off the charger my IMR 16340's measure 4.2, and after a minute or so dropped to 4.17v. Protected 17670 was 4.16, as fast as I could measure it off the charger. Will check the 16340s again after proper charging spacers come in, I had to make due with some rusty screwdriver bits since they didn't send them with the rest of the shipment.


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## ardo (Apr 15, 2009)

I got my charger from DX last night. I put in a couple at 2.4V (yeah, I know) in for 4Hrs, the lights were still red. I took them out, they were 4.20V each. Let them settle for 2Hrs, the voltage was around 3.80. I then took another pair of 18650s. They were already at 3.78V. Kept them in for about 1Hr, the light was still red. 

What's the 'average' time to fully charge 18650s? Since my cells are unprotected, I didn't want to keep them charging overnight. Then again, my cells are from dead laptop batteries, so they cost me 0 anyway, I just don't want them to blow up or something.


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## docman (Jun 23, 2009)

Hello Everyone,

A little off topic ... but does anyone know what the LED codes stand for on Ultrafire 139 charger? I'm charging a pair of 18650 - 3000mAh batteries for the only the third time.

I'm thinking:

Solid Green = Fully Charged
Solid Red = Charging

Flashing red - Defective battery?
Flashing green - over discharged?

Thanks for your help!


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## clipboard (Aug 3, 2009)

I contacted 4sevens about the issue of the wf-139 problems with this question.I have a wf 139 charger and use aw cells that when they come off charge they are at 4.13 volts. I read on cpf to stay away from these and upgrade to at least a pila ibs charger. should I be worried about overcharging with the wf139? Or should I upgrade to a pila or hobby charger? 
This is 4sevens response.."It is normal for lithium ion cells to peak at around that voltage. The people who are telling you to get a different charger either think you have non protected cells or don't really understand how lithium ion charging works (which given cpf would surprise me). The nice thing about protected lithium ion cells is that they monitor themselves for undercurrent, overcurrent and short circuit. When they are fully charged they simply shut off and no longer accept a charge. You can upgrade to a more expensive charger, however, it would not improve how your cells are charged." What do you guys think?


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## clipboard (Aug 3, 2009)

Just wanted to let you know also I do have a second generation wf139. I received 2 unprotected trustfire 16340's . I put them in charger with 3.81 volts tested before putting in charger. they took about an hour to charger and I checked within seconds after lights went green and both batteries came off charger at 4.17 volts....


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## wapkil (Aug 3, 2009)

clipboard said:


> I contacted 4sevens about the issue of the wf-139 problems with this question.I have a wf 139 charger and use aw cells that when they come off charge they are at 4.13 volts. I read on cpf to stay away from these and upgrade to at least a pila ibs charger. should I be worried about overcharging with the wf139? Or should I upgrade to a pila or hobby charger?



If a battery comes out of the charger at 4.13V, most probably it is either almost dead and cannot keep the voltage or it is simply not fully charged. If it is undercharged, it has a few percent less energy inside (still more than 90%) but many people believe that it will live much longer. 

It would be good to know what happens with the batteries voltage not only after charging but also during the process. You should also make sure that your DMM shows accurate voltage values. Nevertheless 4.13V is nothing to worry about, unless you really need to have your cells 100% charged. 



clipboard said:


> This is 4sevens response.."It is normal for lithium ion cells to peak at around that voltage. The people who are telling you to get a different charger either think you have non protected cells or don't really understand how lithium ion charging works (which given cpf would surprise me). The nice thing about protected lithium ion cells is that they monitor themselves for undercurrent, overcurrent and short circuit. *When they are fully charged they simply shut off and no longer accept a charge.* You can upgrade to a more expensive charger, however, it would not improve how your cells are charged." What do you guys think?



I agree that there may be no need to replace your charger but I think this answer is misleading. It is not true that protected cells "will not accept a charge when fully charged". Most of them will accept additional charge - the protection circuit will prevent explosion but it will let the battery be charged to a level that will partially damage the cell and seriously impact its life. The protection circuit is there only to prevent catastrophic consequences, it should not be used as a method of the charge termination.


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## Black Rose (Aug 3, 2009)

wapkil said:


> If a battery comes out of the charger at 4.13V, most probably it is either almost dead and cannot keep the voltage or it is simply not fully charged. If it is undercharged, it has a few percent less energy inside (still more than 90%) but many people believe that it will live much longer.
> 
> It would be good to know what happens with the batteries voltage not only after charging but also during the process. You should also make sure that your DMM shows accurate voltage values. Nevertheless 4.13V is nothing to worry about, unless you really need to have your cells 100% charged.


Not sure if clipboard's AW protected cells that came off at 4.13v were 16340 cells, but if they were, that seems to be a typical voltage when the protection circuit on 16340 cells kicks in to end a charge.

Here is a post from modcod about why that happens with 16340 cells.


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## wapkil (Aug 3, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> Not sure if clipboard's AW protected cells that came off at 4.13v were 16340 cells, but if they were, that seems to be a typical voltage when the protection circuit on 16340 cells kicks in to end a charge.
> 
> Here is a post from modcod about why that happens with 16340 cells.



Thank you. I wrote that it would be good to know the cell voltage during the whole charge (not only after it) but I didn't know that it may be so important in this case. 

If the cells are (for whatever reason) charged to the level when the overcharge protection triggers, the charger shouldn't be used for them. If the charger claims to be able to charge these cells, I believe it should be returned for refund or (a correctly working) replacement.


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## clipboard (Aug 3, 2009)

Yes they were 16340's I was surprised that the trustfire nonprotected 16340's came off at 4.17 volts....


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## Font size (Apr 12, 2010)

*Re: UltraFire WF-139 overcharges batteries? Vent flame*

In one of the other questions a few posters repeatedly say that overcharging will easily cause explosions. Is this just somebody shouting fire in a crowded room.


mdocod said:


> That particular flaw could easily lead to an explosion..


Does overcharging by the use of a defective charger easily cause explosions? 

That is cause a violent and destructive shattering or blowing apart of something, as is caused by a bomb?


liveforphysics said:


> Turn what would be a pop of gas/flame venting event into something like a life threatening pipe-bomb.


A pop of gas does not sound like an explosion to me.


SilverFox said:


> Batteries don't explode... They rapidly vent, sometimes accompanied by flame.


Three years ago Silverfox told us that cells do not explode, but Mdocod keeps saying that they do. How is anyone to know?


StarHalo said:


> I know of at least two CPFers who've been injured by primary lithium battery "events", but none who've had any such issues with li-ions. I'd say you're safer with li-ions than primaries.


With all of these scare tactics it seems like a person would be safer without a light.


----------



## VidPro (Apr 12, 2010)

they can do both, actually i have "exploded" more ni-?? chemistry items than li-ion, just depends entirely on what is occuring. 

say like TRYING to purposfully get it to happen, your more likly to set it off fast, and therefore not get a really good long termp internal heat buildup and breakdown, that once it goes off the action is faster.
if your not trying and it is just sitting there doing a long long slow bake , or screwing up for YEARS, which finnaly cant take it anymore, well the reaction can be much faster.

so why does it look so mild when its CAUSED, and so violent when the guy gets fried by his cell phone. its quite simple, it was on the edge for a lot longer, and the cell item isnt the SAME one as what is being tested either. not only is it not the same item, but it isnt even in the same it was in when it was originally manufactured.
Did you get the part about the cell changing internally depending somewhat on how it is treated/abused? 

ask the fire department why stuff like "wood gas" can burn when ignited, and explode when it build up long and slow then all of it reaches ignition. 2 different responces based on the factors that can control the speed.
Why does gunpowder fissle when in the open and pop when closed up?
why does black powder pop even when it isnt sealed up as well. Chemistry differance
why did (early) TNT take a blasting cap to get it to go off, and AGED and broke down it can go off with much less?
why does gasoline burn yet explode too?
how can you eat flour one day, and make it explode on the next, but it doesnt explode in your stomach 
what differs a flood from rain, they are both water :thinking:
how do you make fuel burn faster? oxygen, what is one of the chemical reactions in an aged damaged cell?

i really think the biggest problem however things go up , is that it is just a start, like when overcharging a ni-Cd pack, it popped open (like a gun going off) and didnt ignite, but caused a Short in the process, and started a small fire, had i not been there it would have burned lots of the house down.
when a ni-mhy pack went off in the truck, the small fire while driving down the freeway didnt really improve my driving 
rocket around the room, POP hard "explode" , or just ketch the drapes on fire, and burn the house down, i think people prefer to reduce any possibility of that, ya figure?

with all of the possibilities a person could think for themselves, and reduce thier risk to nothing, then use thier light without having any problems.

Following the specs for the li-ion is a piece of cake, provides for little problems and minimal risk and little great effort. We dont always Follow those specs  the devices dont follow the rules for proper li-ion charging that has been around for 10+ years. There is no difficulty or problems with li-ion, its the Humans  we want to Push things further, we want cheap this and cheap that, we want the highest capacity yet crappiest cell item, we want the cheapest charger with the highest rate, then we want to run it Well over spec in some light.
Nothing wrong with the proper form of all this stuff, but that isnt what is happening always.
the lights dont have cutoffs, the drive current is high, the chargers use some loose guesses, the cells arent living good time, the good cells you cant get with protection on them as easily, people try and push things well beyond the limits and do. 
The thing most people complain about when refered to the safety, is they cant have thier "Completely wacked out of spec wrongness", AND have "zero ramifications" of that.


----------



## mdocod (Apr 13, 2010)

Font size,

You are digging up a 3 year old thread to try to find any possible way to dismantle every warning I am trying to make about li-ion cells. 

When something rapidly vents inside of a sealed aluminum tube, the resulting buildup of pressure can lead to an explosion. 

Fair enough?

Perhaps you could do us all a favor. Tell us exactly what your goal is, tell us exactly what it is you are trying to accomplish. If your time here at CPF is going to be spent digging up every possible contradiction on CPF over the last 5 years just to make everyone but yourself look bad, then we should just be made aware of this up front. If you have a particular bone to pick with me, just get it out, tell me what I need to say to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside. 

Truth is, it's pretty hard to be on the forefront of a new and exciting technology and application of it, mistakes in terminology are going to be made and I'll be the first to admit that I have had to go back over the years and admit that I have been wrong and correct mistakes. 

It would seem to me, that your goal is to find every possible piece of information on CPF that doesn't agree with another piece, and then use it to dis-prove the theory that li-ion cells can be unsafe if mistreated. That is about all I can conger up at this time. 

If you have a legitimate case to make that involves testing done by yourself or someone else, please, share it with us. 

Eric


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 13, 2010)

*Re: UltraFire WF-139 overcharges batteries? Vent flame*



Font size said:


> Three years ago Silverfox told us that cells do not explode, but Mdocod keeps saying that they do. How is anyone to know?




True battery's will vent & possibly with flame (in regard to Li-Ion cells), placing an expanding substance in a sealed container combined with the possibility of flame/extreme heat is a recipe for an explosion is it not? :thinking:





Font size said:


> With all of these scare tactics it seems like a person would be safer without a light.



Stick with NiCD & NiMH batteries then 



Additionally take a gander at some interesting (and relevant) battery reference information @ http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5.htm


----------



## VidPro (Apr 13, 2010)

xplode (îk-splod´) verb
exploded, exploding, explodes verb, intransitive
1. *To release mechanical, chemical, or nuclear energy by the sudden production of gases in a confined space*: The bomb exploded.
2. *To burst violently as a result of internal pressure.*
3. To shatter with a loud noise: I threw the vase on the floor and it exploded into tiny pieces.
4. To burst forth or break out suddenly and often violently: My neighbor exploded in rage at the trespassers.
5. *To increase suddenly, sharply, and without control*: The population level in this area has exploded during the past 12 years.
6. To change state or appearance suddenly: Over the weekend the trees exploded with color.
7. Sports. To hit a golf ball out of a sand trap with a shot that scatters the sand.
verb, transitive
1. To cause to release energy or burst violently and noisily: The children exploded three firecrackers.
2. To show to be false or unreliable: explode a hypothesis.
3. Sports. To hit (a golf ball) out of a sand trap with an explosive shot.
[*Latin explodere, to drive out by clapping : ex-, ex- + plaudere, to clap*.]
- explod´er noun

original latin , drive out by clapping  
ahh english language where would we be without it. "explode" from a clap to a nuke , all defined in the word.


----------



## Font size (Apr 14, 2010)

*Water can be unsafe if mistreated.*

Li-ion cells can be unsafe if mistreated. 


mdocod said:


> li-ion cells can be unsafe if mistreated.


 Maybe we should concentrate on teaching how to treat cells properly and tone down the rare and hypothetical mishaps.


mdocod said:


> When something rapidly vents inside of a sealed aluminum tube, the resulting buildup of pressure can lead to an explosion.


I may have missed ten thousand posts. But I was under the misconception that venting, if it occurred at all took place on chargers. Which of these chargers that we have been discussing are inside of a sealed aluminum tube?

 I think you are having fun scaring people. How can people safely use this technology to charge there flashlights cells?


> Truth is, it's pretty hard to be on the forefront of a new, and exciting technology and application of it, mistakes in terminology.


Very true. Some kind of glossary needs to be evolving along with the technology. 
Sunlight can be unsafe if mistreated.






mdocod said:


> 14500 size cell, .. is not a cell size that Pila has .. under compatibility.


If some people are suggesting that we follow manufacturers instructions like they were the holy grail. And Pila does not recommend that the most popular size cell be charged safety with the Pila. Then it should follow that the Pila not be recommended by those same posters to be used to charge simple flashlight cells.


> You may find that my posts are often very long winded


If you can think it, you can say it. Please go on. If someone enters the field today. How can they feel safe using a charger as directed, to charge a few flashlight cells?

 We should not need a degree in chemical engineering to shine the brightest light at night.How many deaths on a corner before they put up a traffic light in your town?


mdocod said:


> If one of those chargers from years ago causes a house to burn down in 2010, then the entire industry of consumer li-ion chargers like this will be under the microscope.


How naive, it would have to be The White House. 
 

Page ten of the Indiana Gazette. “Explosion annihilating two city blocks believed caused by faulty household appliance in downtown Fort Wayne..”
 Oh, did I mention lanterns are still being used in Chicago.

 This is what I am taking about. *nonsensical*, ridiculous, horror scenarios, that you make up. These do nothing to further informed interest in the hobby, and undermine your long record of useful contributions to the trade.


----------



## mdocod (Apr 15, 2010)

*Re: Water can be unsafe if mistreated.*

Hello Font Size, 

I appreciate your well thought out response.



Font size said:


> Li-ion cells can be unsafe if mistreated.  Maybe we should concentrate on teaching how to treat cells properly and tone down the rare and hypothetical mishaps. I may have missed ten thousand posts. But I was under the misconception that venting, if it occurred at all took place on chargers. Which of these chargers that we have been discussing are inside of a sealed aluminum tube?




Under normal circumstances, if a li-ion cell is going to blow, it is more likely to happen during a charge, this is very true. However, if the charge method used compromises the integrity and chemical stability of the cell, then the charging method can lead to the cell being more dangerous than normal at all times. 

 


> I think you are having fun scaring people.


I wouldn't really call it fun, if anything, having to tell someone that the charger they either just recommended to someone or just purchased is unsafe in some way or another is probably bad for my customer relations here on the forum. Trying to find an appropriate balance between doing what I feel is right and what is best for me is far from easy. Not really fun. If I were a reseller of the IBC then it would be boatloads of fun 




> How can people safely use this technology to charge there flashlights cells?


Many of these new "cheap" chargers can be used pretty safely IF the user understands the flaw and can compensate for the flaw through intervention. My HOPE is that through education, consumers will create a natural demand for better quality chargers at competitive prices. In a year or two, I hope to be testing a new breed of cheap chargers that follow manufacture suggested guidelines for charging that we can all feel good about. 

​ 


> If some people are suggesting that we follow manufacturers instructions like they were the holy grail. And Pila does not recommend that the most popular size cell be charged safety with the Pila. Then it should follow that the Pila not be recommended by those same posters to be used to charge simple flashlight cells. If you can think it, you can say it. Please go on.





> If someone enters the field today. How can they feel safe using a charger as directed, to charge a few flashlight cells?




While Pila IBC does not have RCR123 and 14500 size cells listed as compatible with their charger, as it stands today, the IBC still charges these cells more correctly and more safely than any other option. Until another option (besides hobby style chargers) comes along that does it better and safer, myself and other who are trying to keep a grip on what's going on with this tech will probably continue to "think outside the box" as you have advocated and instruct people to use the IBC on these size cells. 

I believe you have been somehow mislead to believe that the AA size cell is the most popular size li-ion cell. This is very far from the truth. The 14500 size li-ion cell is one of the least used cell sizes if we look at li-ion tech across the wide spectrum of applications. The only place it can be found semi-regularly in normal commercial products is in RCR-V3 style camera batteries and a few other proprietary rechargeable devices. Most consumer electronics that use li-ion tech are using cylindrical cell sizes in the 17500-18650 range, and prismatic cells for more compact devices. The 18650 is by a long shot the most heavily used cylindrical cell size. For flashlights, the 14500 cell size is still much less popular than many other sizes. 

 


> We should not need a degree in chemical engineering to shine the brightest light at night.





> How many deaths on a corner before they put up a traffic light in your town?How naive, it would have to be The White House.
> 
> Page ten of the Indiana Gazette. “Explosion annihilating two city blocks believed caused by faulty household appliance in downtown Fort Wayne..”
> Oh, did I mention lanterns are still being used in Chicago.




I'm not exactly sure what you are implying here? Perhaps I am Naive?

I do however notice that you have brought up a great number of potential analogies to try to convey your points in our recent discussions. Most of the analogies you bring up are related to government action or non-action. I do not see a government "regulation" as being a very good analogy for a private industry recomendation. You have however made a great case for not trusting government. I can applaud that with open arms. 
 ​


> This is what I am taking about. *nonsensical*, ridiculous, horror scenarios, that you make up. These do nothing to further informed interest in the hobby, and undermine your long record of useful contributions to the trade.



I am not bothered in the slightest if you believe that the possibility of a house burning down related to a li-ion caused fire is ridiculous made up fiction. It is your right to believe as you see fit and interpret your surroundings and make judgments to the best of your ability.

Eric


----------



## Font size (Apr 15, 2010)

*Re: Water can be unsafe*




mdocod said:


> I appreciate your well thought out response.


Aloha~
Thanks for keeping a level head.


> can lead to the cell being more dangerous than normal at all times.


No doubt but an explosion! They way they tell it here. All a person has to do is wire a flashlight cell into a 12 volt ignition system and boom, two city blocks gone!


> Many of these new "cheap" chargers can be used pretty safely


I never even got into the safety of the $5.00 chargers.


> "think outside the box"


Well that is another thing, we have people living out side the box, telling people to live in the box.


> I believe you have been somehow mislead to believe that the AA size cell is the most popular size li-ion cell.


I thought it was right behind D as most popular cell size. Not specifically Li-ion. My wireless mouse, my remote controls, and now my spotlight are all AA. When I go to the supermarket. It is AA size that stares me in the face. It is clear, I live in the future. The future for the consumer who is going to bust this thing wide open. These people will be coming in on the AA size that they use now.

Somebody wants a bright light. I tell them AA. Someone else comes along here, and tells them they need a charger that costs more than they want to spend, that will not charge the high tech version of the same size cells, that they have laying all over the house.


> For flashlights, the 14500-cell size is still much less popular than many other sizes.


For now! It is virtually unknown.


> I'm not exactly sure what you are implying here?


I am saying that a fire in one house, or one city block in numb-struck Iowa, is unlikely to bring about congressional investigation into a multi million dollars global business’s, business. I am also suggesting that a wave of new uneducated consumers is coming and we need to be prepared for it with *simple easy answers.*


> you believe that the possibility of a house burning down related to a li-ion caused fire is ridiculous..


 Sure it can happen. There is probably a house burning somewhere now that might have been started from a failed appliance. But is it going to Explode? 

Pintos explode! Corvettes explode! Propane tanks on the outside of burning buildings explode! But the household fire may go down as user error, or any of a thousand other things. Why was the room full of propane gas when the charger spouted flamed?

Why was the charger surrounded by leaking gasoline tanks when it got to hot?

Why was he charging cells in a hayloft?

The main question will be, who will get the “money and the girl?”

The charger if it is the only Igniter, it may not go down as the real cause of the fire anyway. It may be buried in a report that no one except Colombo sees. Statistically its numbers may be *insignificant* to form a separate group. One house will not do it, unless it’s the White House. How many deaths does it take on a corner in your town before they put up a traffic light?

This is obviously a greater danger, with a clearer solution, that is receiving no attention whatsoever. If anyone is concerned about houses burning down because of flashlight chargers it should be the insurance companies. I have not heard a word from insurance companies. Why do you suppose that is?

You have me backed into a hole here. Why put the burden of this new emerging technology on the supporters of the hobby?

I do not like to use the government as a solution but, when a citizen thinks that there is an unsafe product on the market, isn’t it their responsibility to bring it to the attention of the proper authorities and get it fixed?


----------



## Font size (Apr 15, 2010)

*Re: Milk can be unsafe if unattended.*

Did I mention lanterns are still being used in Chicago.


mdocod said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you are implying here?


It was suggested that if someone left home charging cells when they were gone, and came home to a burned down house. That somehow in a short time none of us would be able to get cells for our flashlights charged.




I was pointing out that not very long ago Miss Timothy O’Leary’s cow kicked over a lantern that burned down Chicago. In spite of a major city burning down, with a great many documented horrible deaths. Lanterns are still being sold in Chicago and everywhere else.


----------



## Chauncey Gardner (Apr 15, 2010)

I've been following the dire warnings on the WF-139 for a while without comment & thought I'd offer this anecdote:

Popped in an unprotected 18650 2 nights ago and fell asleep with it in the charger. Woke up the next morning to a perfectly charged 4.20v cell......

Just like it's been doing for the last couple of years with all makes, unprotected or not. 

Spend $50 on a Pila if you want (it's a good charger), I think I'll stick with what has been tried & true now for some time.


----------



## mdocod (Apr 17, 2010)

Hello Font size,



Font size said:


> They way they tell it here. All a person has to do is wire a flashlight cell into a 12 volt ignition system and boom, two city blocks gone!




Per weight and volume many lithium chemistry cells are not all that far behind TNT for potential energy release when the cell actually "vents" or "explodes." That energy can release quickly in conjunction with highly toxic vapors and debris. That is the "way" that it is told here. 

I do not recall claiming that a consumer size li-ion cell could level a city block.

Here's a link to a video that is popular on the net from a few years ago that I believe was related to one of the Sony cell recalls:
http://www.fiercewireless.com/node/8136

They did artificially "stimulate" the reactions to occur, but this is the reaction that will occur in a typical 18650 size LiCo cell if the cell is degraded to an unsafe operating condition through improper use. One of those cells goes off with such violence that I would be hard pressed not to call it an outright explosion when operating within the confines of the definition of the word. 



> I never even got into the safety of the $5.00 chargers.Well that is another thing, we have people living out side the box, telling people to live in the box.


The WF-139 falls into the category of "budget" chargers IMO. The charge algorithm it uses may represent the future in many ways, but not unless the cells have been proven safe for use with that charging method. The cells most often purchased on CPF may or may not be up to the level of abuse tolerance necessary for for this type of charging. I believe that your intentions are good in trying to help move us along. 

We have numerous members testing outside of the box who have not found a suitable direction to recommend to anyone to head out of the box. Until the path has been beaten and deemed safe, I could not in good conscience recommend that someone treat their li-ion safety issues in an "out of the box" manner. 



> I thought it was right behind D as most popular cell size. Not specifically Li-ion. My wireless mouse, my remote controls, and now my spotlight are all AA. When I go to the supermarket. It is AA size that stares me in the face. It is clear, I live in the future. The future for the consumer who is going to bust this thing wide open. These people will be coming in on the AA size that they use now.


The li-ion chemistry we are discussing in these threads is not likely to find it's way into any supermarket or department store in the form of an AA size cell sold in a blister pack there starring anyone in the face at the checkout isle any time in the near future. The voltage would destroy almost all existing consumer electronics that use call for AA cells. 



> Somebody wants a bright light. I tell them AA.


Bright lights are the result of proper conditions coming together to make it happen, the shape of the cell/s used to power that configuration is of little consequence. 

When you think "AA" size cell, think "consumer designation" for a 14500 cell that is ~1.2-1.5V. While the "AA" and "14500" designations are technically interchangeable, the custom around here has been to use the "14500" designation for lithium-ion type chemistry cells, (not to be confused to the lithium primary chemistry in the AA cells that is ~1.5V-1.7V+ and compatible with many consumer electronics). 



> Someone else comes along here, and tells them they need a charger that costs more than they want to spend, that will not charge the high tech version of the same size cells, that they have laying all over the house.


I am sorry to say, but the 14500 size of a lithium-ion chemistry cell is not a high tech "version" of cells people have laying around the house. It is a different chemistry and more importantly a completely different operating voltage that happens to share a similar size can. While it may be high tech in many ways, the cells found in most peoples stashes of junk drawer batteries are not interchangeable with a li-ion cell. 

There are VERY VERY few applications where you can use either a 3.7V or 1.2V cell in a consumer product. That may be limited almost entirely to 1xAA size LED flashlights that can handle the higher voltage. 

Your frustration is warranted but I assure you, it will fade when you grasp the larger picture of what is going on here. The loose cell li-ion marketplace for flashlights is a complicated animal and the market is what it is. You have entered the market with expectations built on initial impressions and found that there are huge gaps. There are huge gaps. Those gaps can only be filled by consumer demand. Consumers have to know what they want before they can demand it. 



> I am saying that a fire in one house, or one city block in numb-struck Iowa, is unlikely to bring about congressional investigation into a multi million dollars global business’s, business.


The politics of a suitable response are not appropriate for this stage. So in short, the government is already in our fridge, but they are not in our li-ion cradle charger. 



> I am also suggesting that a wave of new uneducated consumers is coming and we need to be prepared for it with *simple easy answers.*


I have been thinking about putting "star" style ratings in my roundup thread for chargers. This would give people some direct simple information about safety and quality. 

The "edge" of technology as it emerges to a consumer base is never simple, but if you create a demand for simplicity and safety by expanding the market and educating consumers, then you will get your wish. It is the natural result of the market system. 

Do be careful with that particular desire though as many products made to target the audience looking for "simple and easy" are often poorly made, over priced, low grade rubbish in fancy packaging. *
*


> There is probably a house burning somewhere now that might have been started from a failed appliance. But is it going to Explode?


Again, I don't recall anyone here suggesting that there is an explosive power to level a house in a normal size li-ion cell. There is however enough poison to make the air in a small room of a house extraordinarily dangerous, and there is enough chemical potential and heat during a thermal runaway to ignite things around a cell gone bad. Many households are filled with flammable materials and fires can spread quickly. 
 


> Pintos explode! Corvettes explode!


It is somewhat inherent that people know that there are various levels of danger in their routine lives. Many of the dangers are obvious, like a hot stove, or a moving car. The danger introduced by a battery and a charger bought on the internet have absolutely no obvious danger to most consumers because the concept of rechargeable cell phones and laptops and cordless phones and weed-wackers and power tools has been common place with practically no risk for decades. 

This little niche market of imported loose li-ion cells and poorly built chargers is being sheltered under the guise of assumption of safety from previous consumer experiences and expectations. 

As a sort of inside joke for the few of us following all of this through the many threads we are conversing in through these last few days: Did any German cars explode that we should know about? :nudge:



> Propane tanks on the outside of burning buildings explode! But the household fire may go down as user error, or any of a thousand other things. Why was the room full of propane gas when the charger spouted flamed?


Benefit to society of propane outweighs incidents. More people would die of hypothermia. Take your pick of obvious and massive economic and human comfort/survival reasons that politicians CAN understand. 




> Why was the charger surrounded by leaking gasoline tanks when it got to hot?


 I was thinking more like some curtains hanging down near the outlet on the wall where it was plugged in. Gasoline is also good though, I guess, if you are stockpiling or something....



> Why was he charging cells in a hayloft?


 I was thinking more like a desk covered in paperwork. You know, like the way a typical desk looks on April 14th. 



> The main question will be, who will get the “money and the girl?
> 
> The charger if it is the only Igniter, it may not go down as the real cause of the fire anyway. It may be buried in a report that no one except Colombo sees. Statistically its numbers may be *insignificant* to form a separate group. One house will not do it, unless it’s the White House. How many deaths does it take on a corner in your town before they put up a traffic light?


 Should there be a traffic light on your driveway? Are you going to pay for it? Are those people driving in that town without a traffic light doing so by choice or by force? Do they understand the risk? Does a traffic light save your life or do the people who obey it save your life?



> This is obviously a greater danger, with a clearer solution, that is receiving no attention whatsoever. If anyone is concerned about houses burning down because of flashlight chargers it should be the insurance companies. I have not heard a word from insurance companies. Why do you suppose that is?


 How many insurance companies have you interviewed?



> You have me backed into a hole here. Why put the burden of this new emerging technology on the supporters of the hobby?


 You are not in a hole unless you are busy digging one, and neither are any of us. Find truth and speak it. The bottom line will not be found through all of this side-tracking. 

Should someone else carry this burden? Is it really a burden? Have I taxed you in some way that you had no escape from? 

I can take on and drop off a responsibility here at will. I am not bound, nor are you. 




> I do not like to use the government as a solution but, when a citizen thinks that there is an unsafe product on the market, isn’t it their responsibility to bring it to the attention of the proper authorities and get it fixed?


Very idealistic, however, only under the assumption that there is such a thing as an authority that has the ability to force action upon another would this have a guaranteed outcome. The concept violates free will and thus will not work in the real world. 

The "government" fix comes in the form of liability. Very hard to enforce over-seas. 

----


Eric


----------



## Font size (Apr 17, 2010)

*Re: UltraFire WF-139*

Good morning, refreshing letter. 

It is possible that we will see increasing demand for high efficiency power sources for small devices. Especially those whose size limitations are brought on by the power source. AA size is a popular size that already has consumer acceptance. Possibly because it is about the size of a human finger. 

Consumers must be protected. Education will help, which is what we are doing now. Scary story’s being detrimental to healthy customer relations. As usual, something bigger than the individual will have to offer safety restraints as technology advances. So far there is no one size fits all. We hope to see *better and cheaper* chargers soon. We have to accept that our legal system allows corporations to continue to kill people for money, and Governments will go along with it as long as it helps their reelections.


mdocod said:


> The li-ion chemistry we are discussing in these .. The voltage would destroy almost all existing consumer electronics that use call for AA cells.


Than can be changed, just as it was with the Nitecore flashlights. At first they only worked with old tech cells. The lights were recalled, thay now shine brighter, and have more range, using both.


> the shape of the cell/s used to power that configuration is of little consequence.


I was thinking the size of the cells were of major consequence when it comes to flashlights. These new technologies allow them to become *smaller, brighter and cheaper*. People can now carry a key chain spotlight, brighter than a large Mag light for a fraction of the cost. It won’t bust heads, but it will chase away the darkness.


> When you think "AA" size cell, think "consumer designation"


Yes AA is a popular consumer size. AA are interchangeable with 14500s, but 14500s are not interchangeable with AA. Flashlights have huge mass market potential. Too many people are scrounging around in the dark when they do not have to be.


> That may be limited almost entirely to 1xAA size LED flashlights that can handle the higher voltage.


There is a large market out there for that very thing. Small, bright, inexpensive, EDC lights. The very thing these chargers, charge.


> There are huge gaps. Those gaps can only be filled by consumer demand.


Demand side economics is one theory, supply side is another. 





> Consumers have to know what they want before they..


Many companies supply products before there is any significant demand. How many people were demanding iPhones?


> This little niche market of imported loose li-ion cells and poorly built chargers.


This may be the core of the problem. *Loose li-ion cells, and poorly built flashlight chargers.*


> Did any German cars explode that we should know about?


None that I know of! No Porsche's anyway...


> Benefit to society of propane outweighs incidents.


That’s what Detroit said about cars killing people. Benefits to shareholders outweighs incidents.


> You are not in a hole unless you are busy digging one,


The hole was depending on something larger than ourselves to oversee general safe conditions from electrical devices.


> Authority that has the ability to force action upon another.


They can regulate unsafe imports.


----------



## Nil Einne (Apr 17, 2010)

Don't want to get into the general argument although I somewhat agree with both sides (people do tend to exaggerate the risks of cheap chargers and cheap cells particularly since some of them are better then others and you can get a decent idea of what to expect if you do research however there are very real risks that need to be considered).

However I wanted to say I think the chance of the 14500 suddenly taking off is slim to none. 18650 and other sizes already have the benefit of popularity and while it may be niche market, it's there. More importantly while the AA size may be a good size, a key reason for it's popularity is its ubiquity. This clearly doesn't apply to the li-ion cells. In fact precisely the opposite. If you're a manufacturer particularly targetting the mass market, choosing a cell size that's equivalent to AA for your significantly higher voltage rechargable cells is a recipe for disaster. You want something that's different precisely so confused consumer doesn't try putting it into their AA device and kill it. 

Also while it may eventually be possible to make some sort of ~1.5V lithium rechargable cell (we already have non rechargable after all) http://www.springerlink.com/content/v3h448t41gk1814r/ (you will need different chemistry, if you don't understand this you should read up about electrochemical cells) and that will be useful for a number of purposes, it's not in itself clear to me how good this would be for the flashlight market. Firstly speculating on an undeveloped technologies is difficult. More importantly and although this isn't something I have that much knowledge in as I understand it while li-ion cells have significantly better power densities and lower internal resistance then NiMH, AFAIK the higher voltage is a big advantage too in many applications. In flashlights, which we're primary talking about here most current white LEDs work best if supplied with around 3.5V or so. Perhaps this will change in the future (although this isn't an easy thing) but until then some sort of boost driver is needed and trying to boost from 1.2V to 3.5V isn't easy particularly at high currents. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/182880 To put it bluntly, 1.2V (or even 1.5V) is perhaps abit too low voltage for many high current applications given the high loses. Of course you could use 2xAA but you still have lower voltage yet a bigger flashlight. To the mass consumer, these may not matter but it seems to me that ultimately the 18650 are a good sweet spot for the more niche market. In other words ~1.5V lithium rechargable have their uses but they aren't some sort of holy grail.


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## Font size (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: UltraFire WF-139*

[FONT=&quot]Here is a short clip showing why the  *AA* size flashlight will continue to gain in popularity.


Nil Einne said:


> I think the chance of the 14500 suddenly taking off is slim to none.


[/FONT]





[FONT=&quot]



[/FONT]​ [FONT=&quot]The evolution of flashlights leading up to  AA shows that size and familiarity are a factor.


> 18650 and other sizes already have the benefit of popularity .. (not) targeting the mass market, (by) choosing a cell size that's equivalent to AA.


People will use 14500 cells in there high-powered flash, and key chain lights, so that they can use AA cells as backups. In a power failure the masses can use the now worthless AA cells in their TV remotes to provide flashlight power. This cannot be done with 18650 and other obscure sizes.[/FONT]


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## mdocod (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: UltraFire WF-139*

Hello Font Size,

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_regulation of unsafe imports:_
I foresee unintended consequences. 

_cars killing people:_
The source of most automobile related injuries and deaths is not the car itself. 

_Demand/Supply economics:_
Supply is produced on the expectation of reward. Incentive to invest comes from the assumption that there either is or will be demand. This is of course, assuming a free market. 

_iPhone:_
The iPhone was built on the presumption of demand for a smart phone designed for the masses.

_Market size of 14500 size devices:_
Large by CPF standards, small by real world standards. No governmental regulation can prevent a consumer from putting a 3.7V cell into a 1.2V device that happens to fit there. Manufactures understand the liability and will prevent the mass markets from seeing this size cell to protect their own self interest. In doing so, they will protect the consumer at the same time. Neat relationship there eh? If a manufacture does decide to go mainstream with an AA size 3.7V cell, they will undoubtedly run into thousands of lawsuits. 

_cell size:_
I believe the word I used was: *shape*

The best way for the market of normal consumer electronics to move in the direction of rechargeable li-ion cells in loose cell format is to use a cell that is not the same shape as an AA cell. Similar in size would be fine but it's important that the cell will not fit into the slot where AA cells fit. 17500 size should be looked at seriously. (A 1.2V AA size cell would fit in an 17500 slot, but not the other way around). This in conjunction with lots of bright bold labeling that clearly points out that the cell is not to be used in alkaline/NIMH/NICD powered devices unless the manufacture of that device specifically lists compatibility. 

_changing consumer devices to be compatible with 3.7V cells:_
In most cases, it's going to be one or the other (1.2V or 3.7V cells) or a very high product cost or different battery compartments for different cell types. (Like many cameras that have external battery packs available). Not as easy with most devices as it is with a 1 cell LED flashlight. It's coincidental that it's possible to have that compatibility without much hassle in the single cell LED flashlight. 

_legal system that allows large business to kill for profit:_
Looks like a neon green power-bait worm stabbed from the side with a bright shiny hook.

Heated political opinions belong in the underground. 

How about a nibble:

In my opinion:


Liability is a reality.
Life isn't fair.
No system will be perfect.
_Bashing the best_ mentality is counterproductive.
Learn from the best and offer up better instead.

_backup cell options for 18650 cells:_
Many 1x18650 lights are backwards compatible with 2xCR123 cells. 

Eric


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