# Cr123 vs AA flashlights



## mccraggen (Aug 9, 2016)

Hey guys, is there any real advantage to using a AA battery flashlight apart from the availability of the battery?


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## LeanBurn (Aug 9, 2016)

Along with availability is running cost. A rechargeable AA battery vs CR123 primaries and/or rechargeables. Also pure CR123 lights tend to be more expensive out of the box. 

Compare for example:

Sunwayman T16R:
Low - 10 Lumens - 60 Hours
Medium - 50 Lumens - 10 Hours
High - 180 Lumens - 2 Hours
Turbo - 380 Lumens - 3 Minutes (Automatically switches to High output after 3 min. of use)
a single CR123 primary battery: ~$1.50
$50+ out of the box


Thrunite Archer 1A:
Firefly - 0.1 lumen - 408 hours 
Low - 17 lumen - 22 hours 
Medium - 75 lumen - 5 hours
High - 200 lumen - 1.92 hours
a single AA primary battery: ~$0.26
$36 out of the box

I would consider an 18650 light over a 2xCR123 light 10 out of 10 times.


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## vadimax (Aug 9, 2016)

I you need runtime, not the lumens, AA is a must: there are Fujitsu FDK HR3U (Silver) NiMH batteries capable of 2700mAh. CR123A not even close to that capacity. And if what, there are always regular AA batteries available everywhere and cheap as dirt.

BTW, I've got Thrunite Archer 1A v3 NW, and it is perfect... Except the moment it is too short to accept protected 14500 Li-Ion batteries.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 9, 2016)

These days it seems beyond size and forum factor the pros of CR123 are getting more questionable. Lithium ion 14500 are better in terms of capacity than 16340. Lithium primary AA are just as cold resistant etc etc etc compared to CR123. Advances in LED and drivers has made any differences in terms of high output less and less.


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## jon_slider (Aug 9, 2016)

mccraggen said:


> is there any real advantage to using a AA battery flashlight apart from the availability of the battery?



the difference depends on your choice of battery chemistry

imho the ONLY advantage of AA is the option to use rechargeable NiMh (Eneloop)

IF you compare both in Primary Lithium, the AA is 46% longer and costs 22% more.. Advantage CR123


Both are available in rechargeable LiIon, 
Both are available in Primary Lithium and produce the same total power
ONLY the AA is available in rechargeable NiMh (Eneloop)
ONLY the AA is available in Alkaline

calculations base on these examples:
http://www.batteryjunction.com/energizer-l91aa.html
Energizer Ultimate Lithium L91 AA 1.5 volts 3000mah = 4500 mW $1.75, 14.5 grams, 1.99" long

http://www.batteryjunction.com/energizer-cr123a.html
Energizer Ultimate Lithium CR123 3 volts 1500mah, = 4500 mW $1.43, 16.5 grams, 1.36" long


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## Chicken Drumstick (Aug 9, 2016)

vadimax said:


> I you need runtime, not the lumens, AA is a must: there are Fujitsu FDK HR3U (Silver) NiMH batteries capable of 2700mAh. CR123A not even close to that capacity.


I'm not familiar with those NiMh batteries. But other factors are important too, such as amp draw and if they are Low Self Discharge or not. And of course the number of duty cycles.

2000mAh Eneloops are still very good on all accounts.

But lets not forget NiMh is 1.2v

So
2000mAh @ 1.2v = 2.4wh
2700mAh @ 1.2v = 3.24wh

But a 3 volt CR123a has approx 1500mAh which gives them 4.5wh, so potentially a lot more power than an AA. Hence why most CR123a lights have higher outputs than single AA ones do.



vadimax said:


> And if what, there are always regular AA batteries available everywhere and cheap as dirt.


This might be true, but if your single AA light is a high performance light, it won't run very well or for very long on an alkaline battery.


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## terjee (Aug 9, 2016)

Sorry if this is just restating, but IMHO the biggest advantage of AA over CR123 is that you can use rechargeable LSD-batteries, yet still fall back to Lithium as a safety/emergency-stack, and finally down to scavenging if you'd have to.

In other words, it's not just about availability of the battery form factor, but availability of different chemistries in that form factor. There's alkaline, lithium primaries, lithium secondaries, NiMH and LSD NiMH. There's even NiCd if you should feel like it, or LiFePo4. Each of those come with a different set of advantages and disadvantages. Sure, there's RCR123, but you don't get the same selection.

Some caveats do apply, not all lights will like the higher voltage of lithiums, some might not like the middle voltage of LiFePo4 (triggering low battery?) and so on. Basically though, you can sort of have it all. In a way. Terms and conditions apply.


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## Lynx_Arc (Aug 9, 2016)

I think one other advantage that I think hasn't been covered is cross compatibility of AA batteries with other devices. CR123 batteries aren't used in very many non light devices and most people who buy CR123 batteries to get a decent price order a bunch of them which typically sit and wait on very few devices while you don't have to order L91s at all and can use them in other things so having extras of these around is less of an investment. 

One other advantage of AA lights is many people opt for a 2AA form factor which cancels out the voltage advantage of CR123s and offers twice the power. In order for a CR123 based light to match this you get into a 2x123 based light which requires a lot more care in battery use vs a 2AA light. 

The availability of LSD Nimh and L91 Energizers tip the scales in favor of AAs. Perhaps one day Energizer's patent on the chemistry of the L91 will expire and prices will drop about 1/3 from about $2-$2.50 to $1.50 or so.


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## Timothybil (Aug 9, 2016)

Apropros of nothing, I can get L91's (either flavor) at my local grocery store for around $1.50 each, sometimes less. And that's for a four pack, not a whole bunch at once. And these are fresh cells, not something only a few years away from their expiration date.


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## xxo (Aug 9, 2016)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> I'm not familiar with those NiMh batteries. But other factors are important too, such as amp draw and if they are Low Self Discharge or not. And of course the number of duty cycles.
> 
> 2000mAh Eneloops are still very good on all accounts.
> 
> ...




L91 Energizer AA lithiums, if I remember right, have about 3000 mAh's so if you compare these to 1500 mAh CR123's Watt hrs. should be about the same (half the Voltage but double the Amp hrs. with the L91s). Still CR123's might have a small advantage in a single cell LED since they are closer to the drive Voltage of the LED, requiring less of a step up than a single AA.


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## bykfixer (Aug 9, 2016)

When I can get 420 lumens from a 1x aa like I can from a 1x123, I'll say win goes to the aa. Right now a true 400+ is out there with scientists and engineers shotting for 600...
from a single 123. 

For general purpose a 1xaa is tough to beat in terms of usefulness and cost to feed it. Availability of fuel is also a boon.


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## OnlyownEnergizer250lumen (Aug 9, 2016)

What AA is giving you 420 and does it give like 900 on a 14500??? Can I has please?


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## bykfixer (Aug 9, 2016)

OnlyownEnergizer250lumen said:


> What AA is giving you 420 and does it give like 900 on a 14500??? Can I has please?



I stated "when a 1xaa can do that"... a 1x123 can, but to my knowledge no 1aa comes close.


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## chillinn (Aug 9, 2016)

bykfixer said:


> When I can get 420 lumens from a 1x aa like I can from a 1x123, I'll say win goes to the aa. Right now a true 400+ is out there with scientists and engineers shotting for 600...
> from a single 123.



Zebralight SC5
Zebralight SC5w

Links only for proof of 500+ lumen specs on AA, these beauties live on backorder at the manufacturer, but are still in stock at some trusted resellers (such as Night Owl Gear <3 <3 <3 )

Eneloop AA FTW!!


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## bykfixer (Aug 9, 2016)

chillinn said:


> Zebralight SC5
> Zebralight SC5w
> 
> Links only for proof of 500+ lumen specs on AA, these beauties live on backorder at the manufacturer, but are still in stock at some trusted resellers (such as Night Owl Gear <3 <3 <3 )
> ...



500 aye? How long?

The PR-1 stays at 420. No step down.


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## chillinn (Aug 9, 2016)

bykfixer said:


> 500 aye? How long?
> 
> The PR-1 stays at 420. No step down.



420 aye? Is that constant brightness? If so, how long before it runs out of regulation and begins to dim? Immediately?

Besides, you did not specify no stepdowns. No takesy backsies... AA wins.


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## bykfixer (Aug 9, 2016)

Oh, so step down counts, huh? 

I have no idea how long the PR-1 will hold out on a cell, but do know when you turn it on high it runs on high until you switch to medium or the cell cannot put out 420 lumens anymore. 

To me if it says 150 lumens that means 150 lumens until the battery can no longer drive 150 lumens. This whole 150 lumens until some switch puts it into a lower mode...
To me that means it is not a true number, but is capable of reaching said number temporarily.

Others may see it different.


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## chillinn (Aug 9, 2016)

Constant brightness, as a feature, is highly desired. Most flashlights, traditionally but also today, will begin dimming from their max brightness as soon as you turn them on, as the battery voltage drops, so do the lumens. If not specified, you can assume a light is not constant brightness. Without seeing a selfbuilt review on the light mentioned, I wouldn't hazard a guess. I do know from experience that the SC5w stays at 500lm until it steps down in a few minutes. After step down, the user can immediately put it back into turbo, and it is again 500lm until step down. It can handle at least several cycles like that on an eneloop pro before the voltage is too low for it to remain in regulation for 3 minutes, then the step down will occur in less than three minutes. But the light doesn't dim no matter how much voltage you have. It will even step down in lower modes once the voltage drops below 1V, but again, even at its dimmer level, the light will stay at a constant brightness and will not dim. As far as I have seen here and anywhere, the SC5 series are state of the art for flashlights, because of its max brightness, but also because of its constant brightness. Lights that dim with voltage drops do so sometimes slow enough that the user won't recognize the dimming until it gets very dim. When using rechargeable Li-ion this is problematic if the voltage drops much below 3V, as many are aware allowing the voltage to go low can damage the cell.


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## ZMZ67 (Aug 9, 2016)

There are some advantages that didn't exist a few years ago.LSD NiMH are,like some others have said the biggest advantage IMHO.Quite a few CR123 and AA lights can use li-ion but they require a bit more attention than NiMH.AA does offer the widest variety of battery types alkaline,lithium,NiMH and for many lights li-ion and even 3V lithium primaries. AA also offers a common battery source for other devices. I have been trying to pick up some AA lights that are similar to my CR123 lights as back-ups not knowing how battery supplies will be down the road but for me CR123 still wins out most of the time. I have had good fortune ordering CR123s online and AA just can't compete with CR123 in compact size for single cell and 2 cell lights.


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## TheShadowGuy (Aug 9, 2016)

Selfbuilt also measured the SC5's turbo at higher than the manufacturer spec. It's an incredible light, though it can't take 14500 at all.
I really like the versatility of the 1xAA format and quality budget options. Small CR123A lights like the Olight S1 are impressive in their own way though.


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## mccraggen (Aug 9, 2016)

I love my mecarmy pt16, can't see a single AA beating that one


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## chillinn (Aug 9, 2016)

TheShadowGuy said:


> It's an incredible light, though it can't take 14500 at all.



I'm weary about continuning praising SC5 series, as it's getting OT, but.... Before handling it, I had that exact same lament as well. The specs of SC5, however, make 14500 irrelevant for the SC5, because 500lm is still quite respectable for a 14500. I think the unsaid assumption is that is if it could handle 14500, then it would be a 1500lm light. But that kind of output is probably not what Zebralight would have designed. If the SC52 is any indication, had they allowed multiple chems in SC5, the 14500 would only be marginally brighter on turbo for the sake of runtime, and the lower modes would be identical. SC52 puts that in perspective.



mccraggen said:


> I love my mecarmy pt16, can't see a single AA beating that one



well... 1000lm huh? No, I don't think AA can (unless maybe Vinh gets ahold of the light first? idk, regular cells aren't his thang, but maybe.) But that drops to 700lm within 3 minutes. Still, I agree, I can't see AA matching that brightness.

There is always a tradeoff between max brightness and runtime, no matter the chem or manufacturer. Maybe it is possible to create a 1000lm AA light, if runtime is not an issue. Maybe it is possible for runtimes of years, decades even, if brightness is not an issue.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 9, 2016)

bykfixer said:


> 500 aye? How long?
> 
> The PR-1 stays at 420. No step down.



In actual field use my SC5w seems on par with most anything within it's size classification within all practical real world terms. I am still in awe of it's power and performance. There are other examples like the HL50. I can run it with either 1XAA or 1XCR123 and within the context of actual use would be hard pressed to tell the difference. Sure it will run better with CR123 but dang if I could actually see it within the context of my use. The same applies to my Armytek C1 and A1. During actual use in the woods I couldn't tell the difference. I can tell the difference in brightness when using Lithium ion for those. Brighter in both cases than primaries. At one time the difference between AA and CR123 was so obvious in the field but not anymore. I am still amazed at what these small lights can do regardless of battery type and chemisty.


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## ZMZ67 (Aug 9, 2016)

TheShadowGuy said:


> Selfbuilt also measured the SC5's turbo at higher than the manufacturer spec. It's an incredible light, though it can't take 14500 at all.
> I really like the versatility of the 1xAA format and quality budget options. Small CR123A lights like the Olight S1 are impressive in their own way though.



No argument the SC5 is a fantastic light. The SC5w is my most used AA light where it's larger size works well with glove hands and rechargables are easy to keep on hand. Zebra really has something here but it has a few disadvantages.You are pretty much married to NiMH AAs it goes through batteries too fast to consider L91 lithiums. I suppose you could extend battery life if you don't use the max output but that is part of the point of the SC5 and IME if it is available it is going to get used.For EDC I just carry the similar SC32w if I want what the SC5w offers.


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## Warp (Aug 9, 2016)

mccraggen said:


> Hey guys, is there any real advantage to using a AA battery flashlight apart from the availability of the battery?



I was all in with CR123 when I first got into this. For years my daily pocket carry was a small-as-they-get 2xCR123 light, which was fairly popular and common at the time (Surefire, Fenix, 4Sevens were mine). I even put a chunky 1xCR123 on my keychain (P1, then P1D-Q5). But not any more. 

There are compact 1x18650 lights not all THAT much bigger than the 2xCR123, with a massive increase in battery capacity + rechargeable. Actually, a Zebralight SC62/SC63 is smaller than a 2x123 light and comparable to many 1x123 but smashes both in performance.

The AA advantages have been well covered above...big out put on 14500 but also many different battery chemistries.

I have retired CR123 or everything but weapon mounted lights. 18650 and 14500 and eneloops and energizer primary lithium are just better choices for most people

(I now go 1xAAA keychain and 1x18650 pocket carry though Nitecore MT10A 1xAA is a strong contender as is the ZL SC52/SC5)


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## OnlyownEnergizer250lumen (Aug 10, 2016)

I sort of discredit any light much bigger than the battery itself in regards to lumen output... Like the SC5 is massive for a AA/14500 light. No point carrying it over an sc62/63 unless you just want common battery capability which I view as a secondary or even less important feature. Example... The Manker E11 is borderline too big for a AA light when compared to the Klarus Mi7..

I guess im purely into size to output ratio.. Then tint / throw but if it truly disappears in a pocket and lights up a giant field I'm happy. Problem is my pockets are extremely tight (fitted suits everyday pretty much) so even an sc63 creates unwanted bulge. I just want the power without the size!

To EDC a 25.4mm X 82mm with 535lm output when I could EDC a 24.5mm X 92.5mm with 1300lm output *personally to me* is completely and utterly pointless. The latter is brighter and easier if not equal to carry. I'd feel 10 years behind in technology carrying the former knowing that others get over twice the power in the same size package...

I understand there's more to flashlights than brightness of course, no need to explain I've been on the forum for some time, just can't do without the wow factor. Ultra Compact power simply feels euphoric and other nonflashaholics agree.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Aug 10, 2016)

chillinn said:


> Zebralight SC5
> Zebralight SC5w
> 
> Links only for proof of 500+ lumen specs on AA, these beauties live on backorder at the manufacturer, but are still in stock at some trusted resellers (such as Night Owl Gear <3 <3 <3 )
> ...


They are certainly cool lights. But the 500 lumen claim is rather misleading.

As the drop lumens quickly and only attain 500 lumens for the ANSI FL1 rating. Don't get me wrong, still hugely impressive. But have a big step down to far more moderate levels.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 10, 2016)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> They are certainly cool lights. But the 500 lumen claim is rather misleading.
> 
> As the drop lumens quickly and only attain 500 lumens for the ANSI FL1 rating. Don't get me wrong, still hugely impressive. But have a big step down to far more moderate levels.



From their website. Nothing misleading there. 500 lumens then after 3 minutes 304 lumens for 0.8 hours. Or H2 at 304 lumens for 0.9 hours. Nothing far more moderate about that IMHO however never ran a runtime chart etc so who knows. That said 304 lumens is still really impressive and during actual use I am hard pressed to notice the step down in terms of actual effectiveness of the gear item. Also it's right there in black and white. No tricks etc. It's not a perfect gear item as the UI isn't my favorite and the mass thicker to accommodate this level of performance in so short of length but just relaying my actual field use experience with this light. I actually prefer using the medium settings as don't often have a need for the higher ones. The runtimes there are very good. Again in keeping with the theme of this thread I would be hard pressed to distinguish this 1XAA light using NiMH from one using 1xCR123 primary in the field conditions with a possible notable exception of deep winter. I never tested it use 1XAA lithium primaries during those conditions. 


Light Output (runtimes)

High: H1 *500* Lm (3min, then 304lm, total 0.8 hr) or H2 *304* Lm (0.9 hr) / *187* Lm (1.8 hrs) / *107*Lm (3.5 hrs)
Medium: M1 *45* Lm (8.5 hrs) or M2 *19 *Lm (16.5 hrs) / *7.5* Lm (42 hrs)
Low: L1 *3.0 *Lm (4 days) or L2 *1.0* Lm (16 days) / *0.28 *Lm (50 days) / *0.1 *Lm (4 months)
Beacon Strobe Mode: 4Hz Strobe at H1 / 19Hz Strobe at H1
Light output are ANSI out the front (OTF) values. Runtimes tested (and parasitic drain estimated) using Panasonic Eneloop Pro AA batteries. Remaining battery power, about 10-20%, after step-down are not counted towards the runtimes.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Aug 10, 2016)

I didn't say Zerbralight were misleading on their site. Just that in this thread claiming it as a 500 lm light is a little misleading.

That said, it is clearly engineered to give a higher headline figure. Nothing wrong with that, lots of companies do it.

And 300 lm is still impressive for an AA. But the Zebralight is somewhat of a rarity in the market place and you most certainly pay for the privilege.


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## anthon87 (Aug 10, 2016)

I think it depends on personal preferences, I notice more in my pocket a S1 Baton than a S1A, I prefer Thinner - longer flashlights over thicker-shorter


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## ronniepudding (Aug 10, 2016)

I used to strongly favor AA's for some of the reasons stated above, but these days I'm getting to like CR123 lights as well. For single-cell lights, I sometimes like the shorter CR123/16340 form factor. Eagletac D25C is one of my favorite lights for this reason, it feels like it's just the right size (subjective) for many uses. In fact, I think it's safe to say that I'm using 16340s BECAUSE of this light  ... and because 16340s DON'T fit into anything else in my house other than a flashlight. 

Having said that, for applications where rechargeable cells will work (the majority of my use-cases), Eneloop AAs are still my favorite battery for the safety factor. Versus li-ion cells, I don't need to hover around Eneloops while they charge, I don't need to worry (much) about over discharge, and someone else in my family can put them into ANY device and nothing bad will happen. I've stayed away from 14500s for this reason -- but if I didn't have to worry about the safety/mistakes of others, and if I was into chasing lumens, I would probably prefer 14500s to 16340s for the capacity difference, and for the ability (of most AA-sized lights) to use a wider variety of chemistries.



xxo said:


> L91 Energizer AA lithiums, if I remember right, have about 3000 mAh's so if you compare these to 1500 mAh CR123's Watt hrs. should be about the same (half the Voltage but double the Amp hrs. with the L91s). Still CR123's might have a small advantage in a single cell LED since they are closer to the drive Voltage of the LED, requiring less of a step up than a single AA.



+1
For applications where primaries are needed (ignoring alkalines for the moment), there isn't any significant cost difference between L91s and CR123s unless you need to buy them at the local drug store (even then, L91s aren't especially cheap); in single-cell lights, I believe that their performance is pretty similar at <250 lumen levels. 

So I guess my answer is "both are good"... it kinda depends upon the circumstances, the light(s) you want to use, etc.


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## TheShadowGuy (Aug 10, 2016)

To each their own, I guess. I don't see a 3 minute stepdown as an issue when discussing max lumen output, especially not when we tolerate significantly shorter bursts from modded flashlights. 
Anyway, back on topic: Do you guys prefer longer but slimmer AA lights or shorter but wider CR123A lights for pocket carry? I have a small extra pocket that can accommodate either, but I like the shortness of CR123A so that it doesn't interfere with the next pocket. For normal pocket carry, I think I prefer AA because of Eneloops.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 10, 2016)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> I didn't say Zerbralight were misleading on their site. Just that in this thread claiming it as a 500 lm light is a little misleading.
> 
> That said, it is clearly engineered to give a higher headline figure. Nothing wrong with that, lots of companies do it.
> 
> And 300 lm is still impressive for an AA. But the Zebralight is somewhat of a rarity in the market place and you most certainly pay for the privilege.



It does cost money but there are cheaper alternatives which do illustrate the point as well. For example.

Armytek A1 in both Prime and Tiara.









Naturally I take manufacture numbers with a grain of salt. For lithium ion they have 450 lumens listed.

Using 1 X AA NiMH,

Firefly1: 0.15lm / 90d
Firefly2: 1.7lm / 200h
Main1: 10 lm / 25h
Main2: 70 lm / 3h
Main3: 210 lm / 1.2h
Max: 370 lm / 30min
Strobe: 10Hz
Beacon: 0.6Hz

The 1XCR123 C1 Note the HL50 setup for 1XCR123. I have tested the difference using both 1XAA and 1XCR123 on multiple lights in field conditions as this has been a topic of consideration for some time.





Armytek C1 using 1XCR123. Lithium ion is listed around 500 but I can't distinguish the two.

Firefly1: 0.15lm/130d
Firefly2: 1.7lm / 300h
Main1: 10 lm / 40h
Main2: 70 lm / 5h
Main3: 210 lm / 2h
Max: 400 lm / 35min
Strobe: 10Hz
Beacon: 0.6Hz


Sure the numbers show an edge for 1XCR123 but not to the degree it did a few years ago. For example I don't have the numbers for the Quark but it sure seems a good deal brighter on 1XCR123. The AAA adapter is a prepper omnivore thing. A great light when using 1XAA or 1XCR123 even if the 1XCR123 appears brighter.





HL50 can also run 1XAA and 1XCR123.





Yes there is an edge for 1XCR123



Utilizes Cree XM-L2 T6 neutral white LED with a lifespan of 50,000 hours
Uses one 3V CR123A Lithium battery or AA (Ni-MH, Alkaline) battery
Three Modes of Operations and One Burst Mode
CR123A Battery Specs:
Low: 4 Lumens (150 hours)
Mid: 60 Lumens (9 hours 45 min.)
High: 170 Lumens (3 hours)
Burst: 365 Lumens

Ni-MH AA Battery
Low: 3 Lumens (110 hours)
Mid: 55 Lumens (6 hours 20 min.)
High: 150 Lumens (2 hours)
Burst: 285 Lumens



However in actual field use I prefer to use 1XAA as it can't use lithium ion. Just cheaper and the performance within actual field use is hard to distinguish. I do like the option of 1XCR123 however. I am not sure why the performance gap is dropping in terms of actual field use. Maybe the lights are getting so bright regardless of batteries it matters less and less. If a CR123/AA light can use lithium ion then edge starts to shift more to AA IMHO.


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## tops2 (Aug 10, 2016)

TheShadowGuy said:


> To each their own, I guess. I don't see a 3 minute stepdown as an issue when discussing max lumen output, especially not when we tolerate significantly shorter bursts from modded flashlights.
> Anyway, back on topic: Do you guys prefer longer but slimmer AA lights or shorter but wider CR123A lights for pocket carry? I have a small extra pocket that can accommodate either, but I like the shortness of CR123A so that it doesn't interfere with the next pocket. For normal pocket carry, I think I prefer AA because of Eneloops.



Yeah, even enough smaller 18650 lights I'm interested in can't sustain 1000 lumens for an extended period anyways. I like the turbo on my SC5w, but if I need the extra lumens, I typically use the 187 lumen mode in short "bursts". When I use the SC5w, I use the 45 lumens and moonlight modes the most.

About the CR123A/AA debate, with the introduction of the Olight S1A..I'm heading down that internal debate. The length of the Olight S1 is awesome for pocket carry. The diameter though is still a bit wide depending on pants, but for 99% of my clothes the S1 is great. The S1A is slimmer in diameter, but I'm not sure how much of a difference it'll make..considering the trade off is the S1A is longer than the S1. The few times I forget or don't bring my S1 but only my keys, I really like the pocket carry feel of the Nitecore Tube and my AAA keychain lights. Granted the max output is way lower, but the difference in pocket carry is significant to me.




ronniepudding said:


> Having said that, for applications where rechargeable cells will work (the majority of my use-cases), Eneloop AAs are still my favorite battery *for the safety factor*. Versus li-ion cells, I don't need to hover around Eneloops while they charge, I don't need to worry (much) about over discharge, and someone else in my family can put them into ANY device and nothing bad will happen. I've stayed away from 14500s for this reason -- but if I didn't have to worry about the safety/mistakes of others, and if I was into chasing lumens, I would probably prefer 14500s to 16340s for the capacity difference, and for the ability (of most AA-sized lights) to use a wider variety of chemistries.



I used to also want to stay with nimh AA/AAA too for safety reasons. The rest of my family can careless about battery/light safety so I typically don't like to leave 500+ lumen lights with batteries inside them (or I'll untwist the tail cap) in case they'll activate turbo and leave the light unattended placed face down. And like you, I also don't want 14500 cells around in case someone in the family grabs it to replace another battery else where at home.

I'm a lot more comfortable with li-ion now, but I still only have 2 18650 batteries and only a few 18650 lights.


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## Timothybil (Aug 10, 2016)

I'm going to be a little different and say I really don't care either way. That said, I bought a Nitecore EA11 instead of the EC11 specifically because of the availability of the AA form factor if the need arises. I am currently using an IMR 14500, which gives me essentially the same output as the EC11 does with an 18350 cell. The output in Turbo when using non-LiIon cells is a staid 160 lumens, which is nothing to write home about, but more than enough, since in my life an emergency situation could be handled quite well with that output. And since there is only a few mm difference in length, and the head and tail cap are identical for both, size isn't really an issue either.


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## TheShadowGuy (Aug 10, 2016)

I'm with you on AAA keychain lights. I'm carrying a Thrunite Ti3 and copper Olight i3e. They are so small and light for what they do! Overall though they just supplement a primary EDC such as my BLF A6 or Olight S1.


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## chillinn (Aug 10, 2016)

OnlyownEnergizer250lumen said:


> I sort of discredit any light much bigger than the battery itself in regards to lumen output... Like the SC5 is massive for a AA/14500 light.



:thinking:
Here I was under the impression it was among the smallest AA lights. Perhaps a member with a nice AA collection can post a family portrait?



Chicken Drumstick said:


> They are certainly cool lights. But the 500 lumen claim is rather misleading.
> 
> As the drop lumens quickly and only attain 500 lumens for the ANSI FL1 rating. Don't get me wrong, still hugely impressive. But have a big step down to far more moderate levels.



Yar, that is true for most lights, but not Zebralight. Isn't the rating measured after 30 seconds? SC5 handles 6 times that with constant brightness before auto-step down, and can handle several turbo re-initiations before the cell is draineed. Zebralight does not dim with a corresponding drop in voltage; it features constant brightness.


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## jon_slider (Aug 10, 2016)

chillinn said:


> Perhaps a member with a nice AA collection can post a family portrait?


http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...L2)-Review-RUNTIMES-BEAMSHOTS-VIDEO-and-more!


selfbuilt said:


> From left to right:
> Panasonic Eneloop Pro AA NiMH; Zebralight SC5, SC52, SC51; L3 Illumination L10; Skilhunt DS15; Olight S15; Thrunite Archer 1A V2.
> 
> 
> ...


fwiw, the L11c is 29g


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## tops2 (Aug 10, 2016)

chillinn said:


> :thinking:
> Here I was under the impression it was among the smallest AA lights. Perhaps a member with a nice AA collection can post a family portrait?



I don't have any pictures..but the SC5w is a "beast" (in my opinion) of a light. Imagine a slightly shorter version of the Zebralight SC600 MKIII. Weight wise with battery according to my calculations is about the same as the Zebralight SC63w with battery. Diameter is pretty large too. The SC52w is much smaller to me, but doesn't have the same output when using nimh AA.

But with this heft, my SC5w never gets hot on turbo. Its just slightly warm.


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## Rob Babcock (Aug 10, 2016)

I like AAA for keychain use but I don't have much use for AA except in remote controls. Regular lithium AA/AAA do have the same usefulness in the cold that CR123A does but we're still talking 1.5v vs 3v. I like the form factor of the shorter cell a lot. Lastly, I know I'm in the minority but my lights are geared more towards "serious use" so I'm not interested in rechargeables, etc. And I have seen very very very few serious/hard use flashlights set up around AA. Thus for my purposes CR123a is simply better.


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## bykfixer (Aug 10, 2016)

Rob Babcock said:


> I like AAA for keychain use but I don't have much use for AA except in remote controls. Regular lithium AA/AAA do have the same usefulness in the cold that CR123A does but we're still talking 1.5v vs 3v. I like the form factor of the shorter cell a lot. Lastly, I know I'm in the minority but my lights are geared more towards "serious use" so I'm not interested in rechargeables, etc. And I have seen very very very few serious/hard use flashlights set up around AA. Thus for my purposes CR123a is simply better.







Nuf said?

Ok, 3 more...





^^ versus some typical pocket size lights.




^^ versus the fabled Alpha




^^ compared to vintage 1aa's.


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## ZMZ67 (Aug 10, 2016)

TheShadowGuy said:


> To each their own, I guess. I don't see a 3 minute stepdown as an issue when discussing max lumen output, especially not when we tolerate significantly shorter bursts from modded flashlights.
> Anyway, back on topic: Do you guys prefer longer but slimmer AA lights or shorter but wider CR123A lights for pocket carry? I have a small extra pocket that can accommodate either, but I like the shortness of CR123A so that it doesn't interfere with the next pocket. For normal pocket carry, I think I prefer AA because of Eneloops.



The shorter CR123 is my preference for sure.While I don't have that too many single cell AA lights I seem to have quite a few single AAA lights that are capable EDCs but I almost never carry them even though they are much narrower than CR123 lights. If I want something less than CR123 I go for one of the even shorter CR2 lights.


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## Rob Babcock (Aug 10, 2016)

bykfixer said:


> Nuf said?
> 
> Ok, 3 more...
> 
> ...




I didn't mean to imply that there are none, just that the list is short (and doesn't include Streamlight although I like their stuff alright ). Is the bottom one in the middle pic a Peak? I have a Peak that takes an AA sized cell but it's worthless at 1.5v. 

The bottom one in the last picture looks like it came from a sex shop!oo:

Again, just my opinion and priorities, not applicable to everyone.


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## bykfixer (Aug 10, 2016)

Rob Babcock said:


> I didn't mean to imply that there are none, just that the list is short (and doesn't include Streamlight although I like their stuff alright ). Is the bottom one in the middle pic a Peak? I have a Peak that takes an AA sized cell but it's worthless at 1.5v.
> 
> The bottom one in the last picture looks like it came from a sex shop!oo:
> 
> Again, just my opinion and priorities, not applicable to everyone.



The one in the middle pic is an incan Streamlight Keymate. 

The one that looks like something in a top dresser drawer is called a 'lipstick' light. They were popular in the 30's and 40's. 

I just showed the rest to indicate how small a 400+ lumen 1x123 light can be. 

I really like 1aa lights. But feel at this point in history the 123 light still has the advantage for really bright pocket carry lights.

I'm on the same page as you Rob. I prefer the lights meant for heavy duty use. Cop lights and duty lights. 

I have respect for numerous brands mentioned in this thread, yet own none nor plan on it.
Elzetta, Malkoff, PK and Streamlight get most of my dough in terms of LED lights. (SureFire got some, but none lately)

I have quite the assortment of Mags as well. Some are old enough to buy alcohol with zero let downs.

Yet in my view the 123 sized lights still have the most potential. And with mega advancements in 18mm cells, no telling where the limit is.


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## Rob Babcock (Aug 10, 2016)

I love my Elzetta Alpha but I now feel the neurotic urge to get the newer 400 lumen version to replace my 300 lumen model.


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## bykfixer (Aug 10, 2016)

Rob Babcock said:


> I love my Elzetta Alpha but I now feel the neurotic urge to get the newer 400 lumen version to replace my 300 lumen model.



I felt same until 
1) it still has a flicker in some. That was disappointing to read.
2) that PR-1 came out. I prefer the style, size and most of all the beam for general purpose uses. Medium setting pushed me over the edge. 

The Alpha is a great flashlight. No doubt. In some cases it is the first one on my list. But to this user it is like the Streamlight Stylus-reach (bendy light)...it has become a niche light in my collection. I still have 2 more nip stashed in case Elzetta stops making them.


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## jgunner1313 (Aug 16, 2016)

I prefer the flashlights that only use CR123, such as Surefire's G2X. So in my personal opinion CR123>AA.


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## jon_slider (Aug 16, 2016)

ronniepudding said:


> … for applications where rechargeable cells will work (the majority of my use-cases), Eneloop AAs are still my favorite battery for the safety factor. Versus li-ion cells, I don't need to hover around Eneloops while they charge, I don't need to worry (much) about over discharge, and someone else in my family can put them into ANY device and nothing bad will happen. I've stayed away from 14500s for this reason -- but if I didn't have to worry about the safety/mistakes of others, and if I was into chasing lumens, I would probably prefer 14500s to 16340s for the capacity difference, and for the ability (of most AA-sized lights) to use a wider variety of chemistries
> ...
> So I guess my answer is "both are good"... it kinda depends upon the circumstances, the light(s) you want to use, etc.



that is one of the most well reasoned posts I have seen in regard to why someone could prefer rechargeable NiMh AA over rechargeable LiIon

Im a huge fan of Eneloops, and have zero desire to add to my risk factors with LiIon. So the CR123 lights are not on my radar, since they do not have a NiMh option.

I can see how the shorter CR123 may have some advantage in form factor, for people wanting to use disposable Lithium Primary batteries or LiIon.

So I guess the choice of CR123 vs AA depends on the choice of battery chemistry.

AA chemistry options: Yes LiIon, Yes NiMh, Yes Lithium Primary, Yes Alkaline
CR123 chemistry options: Yes LiIon, No NiMh, Yes Lithium Primary, No Alkaline

here is another source of opinions on the pros and cons
CR123A vs AA: Choosing the Right Battery for Your EDC Flashlight ...


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## Slumber (Aug 16, 2016)

Rob Babcock said:


> I like AAA for keychain use but I don't have much use for AA except in remote controls. Regular lithium AA/AAA do have the same usefulness in the cold that CR123A does but we're still talking 1.5v vs 3v. I like the form factor of the shorter cell a lot. Lastly, I know I'm in the minority but my lights are geared more towards "serious use" so I'm not interested in rechargeables, etc. And I have seen very very very few serious/hard use flashlights set up around AA. Thus for my purposes CR123a is simply better.



Great post! I will add, other than my HDS lights, which are my go to task/edc light, I favor lights with simple interfaces. Single mode or dual mode is all I need. There may be tough, single cell AA lights with less than three modes, but I just haven't bothered searching for one lately.


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 16, 2016)

CR123A primary batteries will have a place in the flashlight world for a long time to come. Their small size, long storage-life, and excellent performance at temperature extremes (both hot and cold) guarantee a bright future for them.


*Low Maximum Discharge Rate*
One thing they do not do, however, is deliver the high currents necessary to run a modern flashlight in its highest modes. The maximum continuous discharge current for most brands of CR123A battery is 1.5 amps. This limit can be found in the data sheets published by battery manufacturers.

As a rule-of-thumb, 600-700 lumens is about the most you can get while staying below 1.5 amps in a flashlight that uses a 2xCR123A series configuration. Reaching 400 lumens from a 1xCR123A configuration, while staying below 1.5 amps, is virtually impossible. 

Compare this with a flashlight such as the *ZebraLight SC5w*, which can reliably reach 500 lumens without exceeding the maximum discharge rate of its Eneloop Pro battery.

In flashlight reviews where selfbuilt made runtime tests of flashlights pulling more than 1.5 amps from CR123A batteries, he has sometimes reported erratic behavior and visible heat damage to batteries. In many cases, the high amperage has tripped the PCT protection of his CR123A batteries.

As long as you understand these limitations, and keep your CR123A-powered flashlights on levels that stay below 1.5 amps, you should find that battery to be a fine energy source.


*Difficulty in Implementing Low-voltage Protection*
Another potential problem with CR123A batteries concerns low-voltage protection. Flashlights that are designed to use both CR123A primary and RCR123 secondary (rechargeable) batteries often must omit any low-voltage detection or protection features.

The rechargeable RCR123 battery, for instance, sold by Olight for use in the *Olight S1* flashlight, has a nominal 3.7-volt rating. Fully charged, the battery reaches 4.2 volts. It is effectively empty by the time voltage falls to 3.0 volts. 

But 3.0 volts is near to the voltage of a brand new CR123A battery. If Olight were to implement low-voltage cutoff circuits that triggered at around 2.8-3.0 volts, then the S1 flashlight would not be able to run for very long using a CR123A battery.

Flashlights like the 1x14500 *ZebraLight SC52* have low-voltage cutoff circuits that trigger at 2.8 volts. This protects users from accidentally over-discharging a rechargeable 14500 Li-ion battery in the SC52. The Olight S1, on the other hand, has no similar cutoff circuit that triggers when a rechargeable RCR123 battery is dangerously low. The S1 does not even warn you that battery voltage is getting low.

Cutoff circuits in the ZebraLight SC52 do not interfere with operation using NiMH rechargeable or L91 primary batteries. Those batteries top out, respectively, at around 1.5 and 1.7 volts. When you power your SC52 using one of those batteries, the 2.8-volt cutoff circuits are disabled. You can run the voltage all the way down. When voltage falls to around 1 volt, the SC52 blinks (when you turn it off) to give you a warning that voltage is getting low.


*Boost Circuits Produce Continuous Output*
One subtle difference between 1xAA and 1xCR123A flashlights concerns drivers. Flashlights that run on a single NiMH AA battery must use boost drivers to reach the voltage levels necessary to drive their emitters. These drivers typically produce flat runtime curves. Output does not slowly dim as a battery weakens.

With CR123A designs, a boost driver may—or may not—be used. Thus, flashlight output may slowly dim as a battery is drained.

There are pluses and minuses for both designs. My own preference is for flat, predictable output, but your mileage may vary. When I acquired a cheap headlamp last year, I opted for the 1xAA version, rather than the similar 3xAAA one. That guaranteed that I would get a boost driver. 


*Pocket Carry*
Most owners report that the smaller diameter of an AA flashlight is preferable for pocket carry than a fatter CR123A design. I am in that camp myself. Once again, however, your mileage may vary.


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## wolfgaze (Aug 16, 2016)

I prefer AA lights over CR123.... I recently gave away my only CR123 flashlight as well as my (3) RCR123's....

Moving forward I'm sticking with AAA, AA, and 18650 lights only...


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## jon_slider (Aug 16, 2016)

Rob Babcock said:


> my lights are geared more towards "serious use" so I'm not interested in rechargeables, etc. And I have seen very very very few serious/hard use flashlights set up around AA. Thus for my purposes CR123a is simply better.



I dont understand, can you elaborate? Serious as in, potted electronics that hold up to being dropped, or used as a weapon light and able to withstand recoil? Isnt the Zebralight SC52 (AA) a more serious light than the Olight S1? (CR123). Or do you mean serious as in Lithium Primary for its temperature range and long term storage? Both AA and CR123 can be had in Lithium Primary and they have identical wattage, the voltage difference notwithstanding.

There are some very expensive CR123 lights available, that are very durable, such as HDS and Malkoff, but, they use PWM. I wont buy lights with PWM any more. imo the fact that the LEO/Military has historically supported the CR123 platform, and stockpiles large amounts of spare cells is maybe one of the reasons for the impression that CR123 is for serious use, but that has more to do with the actual light construction imo, than the type of battery.

Or, is there some other factor you are referring to when you say Serious?

Can you give an example of a serious light that has no AA counterpart

consider these other limitations to CR123:



KeepingItLight said:


> … Reaching 400 lumens from a 1xCR123A configuration, while staying below 1.5 amps, is virtually impossible.
> ...
> Another potential problem with CR123A batteries concerns low-voltage protection.
> ...
> ...



thanks for the truly outstanding post!


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## ronniepudding (Aug 16, 2016)

KeepingItLight said:


> *Difficulty in Implementing Low-voltage Protection*
> Another potential problem with CR123A batteries concerns low-voltage protection. Flashlights that are designed to use both CR123A primary and RCR123 secondary (rechargeable) batteries often must omit any low-voltage detection or protection ...
> 
> Flashlights like the 1x14500 *ZebraLight SC52* have low-voltage cutoff circuits that trigger at 2.8 volts. This protects users from accidentally over-discharging a rechargeable 14500 Li-ion battery in the SC52.



This bit reminded me of 14505 "CRAA" primaries, which I don't believe have been mentioned yet in this thread. My Zebralight H52 won't run on them due to its built-in low voltage protection. However, in 1xAA lights good to go on 3+ volts WITHOUT low-voltage cutoff, 14505s can be a useful (albeit hard to come by) power source with the same long term storage and temperature extremes benefits as CR123s (same chemistry).

I'm also reminded that I have a bunch of 14505 cells in my battery box, so my earlier comments about 14500 li-ion should perhaps be taken with a grain on salt  
If my wife put them into a remote control or something else designed for alkalines... that would be bad.


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## kkay (Aug 16, 2016)

I think it is going to be a personal preference issue. I didn't think I'd like my CR123 light, as much as I do. I have the Zebralight SC32w and LOVE IT. It is tiny, but you get used to it. One thing about CR123 batteries, they have a smell that I don't care for. (especially when you store them) They do have a long life in storage, which I prefer. I think this light is perfect for a get home bag that you may not see, or use everyday. (especially if kept in the trunk of the car) Spare batteries do not take up much space. I have flashlights with various batteries, and I like them all. I have more 18650 flashlights than anything else. But this SC32w is perfect for everyday, for me. I used it several times a day, and I keep it on my computer desk, or in my pocket.


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## mccraggen (Aug 16, 2016)

Wait wait, cr123 batteries smell? Please explain


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## kkay (Aug 16, 2016)

I can't really explain it. They have an odor to me. I have them in a plastic storage container, but it is not the container I smell. Even when I put in a new battery, you can smell where the old one was in the flashlight. This is the only box I've ever bought. Have others not experienced the same thing?


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## Warp (Aug 16, 2016)

He's right. They do have a smell. I noticed it most when I stored some in an otterbox for travel (upon opening), but even without that, they do have a smell.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 17, 2016)

KeepingItLight said:


> CR123A primary batteries will have a place in the flashlight world for a long time to come. Their small size, long storage-life, and excellent performance at temperature extremes (both hot and cold) guarantee a bright future for them.
> 
> 
> Compare this with a flashlight such as the *ZebraLight SC5w*, which can reliably reach 500 lumens without exceeding the maximum discharge rate of its Eneloop Pro battery.



I noticed this as well. For example my Armytek C1 couldn't hold the high well using 1XCR123 primary but the ZL SC5w doesn't have any issues using a newer Duraloop (Eneloop Pro re bagged). Both have high modes within the range you are talking about.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 17, 2016)

Warp said:


> He's right. They do have a smell. I noticed it most when I stored some in an otterbox for travel (upon opening), but even without that, they do have a smell.



Yup they do. Not sure why.


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 17, 2016)

mccraggen said:


> Wait wait, cr123 batteries smell? Please explain



Funny you should ask about the smell. This very question came up in a thread I saw this week.




ronniepudding said:


> This bit reminded me of 14505 "CRAA" primaries, which I don't believe have been mentioned yet in this thread. My Zebralight H52 won't run on them due to its built-in low voltage protection.



So this like the *Olight S1* problem in reverse. Olight had to omit low-voltage protection so that you could run the S1 on a CR123A primary. If 14505 "CRAA" primaries were more common, ZebraLight might have made a similar decision with its *ZebraLight H52*.

By the way, thanks for mentioning CRAAs. I had perhaps seen the name before, but, until tonight, I did not know what they were. That's the main reason I like CPF. I keep learning stuff.


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## Jessieliu (Aug 17, 2016)

I think AA battery is much easier to obitaned than CR123A. Also, many AA style lights can compitable with 14500 battery, which can reach much higher output lumens. Personly like AA style more


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## Lynx_Arc (Aug 17, 2016)

ronniepudding said:


> This bit reminded me of 14505 "CRAA" primaries, which I don't believe have been mentioned yet in this thread. My Zebralight H52 won't run on them due to its built-in low voltage protection. However, in 1xAA lights good to go on 3+ volts WITHOUT low-voltage cutoff, 14505s can be a useful (albeit hard to come by) power source with the same long term storage and temperature extremes benefits as CR123s (same chemistry).
> 
> I'm also reminded that I have a bunch of 14505 cells in my battery box, so my earlier comments about 14500 li-ion should perhaps be taken with a grain on salt
> If my wife put them into a remote control or something else designed for alkalines... that would be bad.


I have a few of them that I pulled out of photo batteries years back I never used. I think the non Energizer brands of a certain type of lithium battery for cameras have them and over time I found them on clearance for a dollar or two each hoping to get 1.5v lithium batteries I picked them up. I ended up getting about a dozen L91s over the years for devices that ended up in cars and such. As for the later comments about the 14505 or 3V AA batteries being used in remotes I thought they were all flat top cells as such they most likely wouldn't make contact but if they could do so a chance of being reversed could exist I suppose too.


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## ronniepudding (Aug 17, 2016)

Lynx_Arc said:


> ..,
> As for the later comments about the 14505 or 3V AA batteries being used in remotes I thought they were all flat top cells as such they most likely wouldn't make contact but if they could do so a chance of being reversed could exist I suppose too.



The 14505s I have are Titanium Innovations brand, and they have a button top, but the button is shorter than L91.


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## kkay (Aug 17, 2016)

I'm a woman, but you had no way of knowing that.  The batteries I use are Panasonic for the most part. They smelled when I bought them. I know they aren't low, because the batteries last me a long time. My flashlight only uses 1 CR123 battery. The pack I bought have an expiration date of 2021 or 2022. When the OP asked about the smell, I thought maybe I was the only one having an issue with the odor of the batteries. Good to know I'm not the only one, as someone else posted a link to a thread on it. Still, as I said this is my favorite flashlight, and the smell doesn't bother me enough to not use the light. I use it several times a day. 



Warp said:


> He's right. They do have a smell. I noticed it most when I stored some in an otterbox for travel (upon opening), but even without that, they do have a smell.


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## ronniepudding (Aug 17, 2016)

kkay said:


> The batteries I use are Panasonic for the most part. They smelled when I bought them. ... When the OP asked about the smell, I thought maybe I was the only one having an issue with the odor of the batteries. Good to know I'm not the only one, ... the smell doesn't bother me enough to not use the light.



I don't mind the smell of 'flashahol' at all. I don't go intentionally sniffing it or anything  but I never thought of it as an issue. I only smell it briefly when opening a light, or my box o' batteries... and then it dissipates quickly.

I too use Panasonic CR123s. I notice a similar smell from other Lithium chemistry cells as well: Olight RCR123, and also Energizer L91.


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## reppans (Aug 17, 2016)

Have you cake and eat it too - efficient, well regulated 0.9-4.2v boost/buck driven lights with mechanical clickies and swappable battery tubes like the old Quarks. Favorite config is a 2xCR123 tube running a 16650 since any chem 1x AAA/AA/CR123 can fit the tube and power the light in a pinch. Next up are 1xAA tubes since all the battery chemistries are represented... tune your performance by chemistry. 







~1.5v capable lights are great since they'll run on any ubiquitous alkaline cell: AAA, AA, C, D, and even a disassembled 9V (AAAAs).


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## Rob Babcock (Aug 18, 2016)

KeepingItLight said:


> As a rule-of-thumb, 600-700 lumens is about the most you can get while staying below 1.5 amps in a flashlight that uses a 2xCR123A series configuration. Reaching 400 lumens from a 1xCR123A configuration, while staying below 1.5 amps, is virtually impossible.



That may be, I have never taken a multi-meter to any of my lights. I know that the AVS head on the Elzetta Bravo produces over 900 lumens with a pair of CR123A batteries and has been tested by independent sources. I have never heard of them burning up batteries. Certainly none of mine have.




KeepingItLight said:


> Another potential problem with CR123A batteries concerns low-voltage protection. Flashlights that are designed to use both CR123A primary and RCR123 secondary (rechargeable) batteries often must omit any low-voltage detection or protection features.
> 
> The rechargeable RCR123 battery, for instance, sold by Olight for use in the *Olight S1* flashlight, has a nominal 3.7-volt rating. Fully charged, the battery reaches 4.2 volts. It is effectively empty by the time voltage falls to 3.0 volts.



Not a genuine issue for me since RCR123 batteries aren't really suitable for serious applications to begin with. The protection circuitry is generally a potential point of failure and is vulnerable to mechanical impact. Certainly it could be a handicap if you use primary batteries in a light optimized for something else. My Malkoff & Elzetta lights pretty much drain cells dry.




jon_slider said:


> I dont understand, can you elaborate? Serious as in, potted electronics that hold up to being dropped, or used as a weapon light and able to withstand recoil? Isnt the Zebralight SC52 (AA) a more serious light than the Olight S1? (CR123). Or do you mean serious as in Lithium Primary for its temperature range and long term storage? Both AA and CR123 can be had in Lithium Primary and they have identical wattage, the voltage difference notwithstanding.
> 
> There are some very expensive CR123 lights available, that are very durable, such as HDS and Malkoff, but, they use PWM. I wont buy lights with PWM any more. imo the fact that the LEO/Military has historically supported the CR123 platform, and stockpiles large amounts of spare cells is maybe one of the reasons for the impression that CR123 is for serious use, but that has more to do with the actual light construction imo, than the type of battery.
> 
> ...



I think you misread my post. I never said there no AA counterparts, just they are few and far between. PWM is irrelevant to me and doesn't apply to any comment I made. I can understand that you don't like PWM and that's fine but it's never bothered my eyes. It's meaningless anyways with single modes lights (which I generally prefer). IIRC it would only be a big factor if a light had a bunch of 'gimmick modes' that I have no use for. I will accept a HI/LOW function but any more than that detracts from the usefulness of the light to me.

Serious if obviously a subject term; what meets my definition won't necessarily fit yours. For example the Zebralight SC52 might be a fine light but it's not a serious use light to me. There's no sidearm/flashlight technique that I am aware of that is taught with a light that lacks a tailcap switch. It would likewise be useless as a WML on a long gun due to the impossibility of reaching the switch. One problem with any AA light I'm aware of is that virtually no high quality WML mount will fit the small diameter body- all the serious ones are tailored around a 1" body diameter. I don't know what an Olight S1 is; I'm not big on the Chinese stuff. I have an Olight on my keychain but it's the only Olight I have ever actually seen in person. At a glance it certainly doesn't look like a serious light as I Google it- the control layout is unsuitable for any use I envision for a light.

Yeah, to me serious means it's potted, features bombproof construction, utilizes a switch configuration compatible with the FBI and/or Harries technique and is suitable for WML use (obviously this is a general preference- not all of my lights are set up for WML use). This switch will invariably on the tailcap. A serious light can have no goofy multi-modes that require you stand on one foot and rub your belly to activate!:laughing: It has to work in a simple manner that's allows _instant, foolproof access_ to HIGH mode.

I'll note that a company could certainly make an AA that would meet most of these criterion. But to my knowledge almost none of them actually do.

_Again, I absolutely do not mean to imply that my definition of a serious light is the only one, or even the best!_ But it's shared by a certain subset of customers, mostly police and military. So unless or until the Surefires/Elzettas/Malkoffs/MDSs of the world start cranking out a wide assortment of such lights built around AA I expect CR123a-based lights to sell robustly.


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 18, 2016)

Rob Babcock said:


> I know that the AVS head on the Elzetta Bravo produces over *900 lumens with a pair of CR123A batteries* and has been tested by independent sources. I have never heard of them burning up batteries. Certainly none of mine have.
> 
> [Emphasis added.]



Elzetta is one company that understands the discharge limitations of CR123A batteries. It even made a video about it. In it, you will see a comparison of the Elzetta Bravo running a high-output AVS head with a SureFire (Fury?) flashlight. The SureFire pulls way more than 1.5 amps, while the Elzetta stays comfortably within spec. 





According to Elzetta's statement in the video, the Bravo outputs 650 lumens during this test. Elzetta advertises the same lumen output for the Bravo/AVS combination on its web site. I am not sure where you saw the 900-lumen claim for the AVS head when running on a Bravo. Perhaps you are confusing the 2-cell Bravo with the 3-cell Charlie.

I am by no means an expert. The truth is, I am in that middle ground, where I have only a little bit of knowledge. I know just enough, perhaps, to get into trouble. In this, however, my original statement stands: 



KeepingItLight said:


> As a rule-of-thumb, 600-700 lumens is about the most you can get while staying below 1.5 amps in a flashlight that uses a 2xCR123A series configuration. Reaching 400 lumens from a 1xCR123A configuration, while staying below 1.5 amps, is virtually impossible.



Elzetta seems to agree.


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## Rob Babcock (Aug 18, 2016)

D'oh! You're absolutely right! My memory is a bit off. It does indeed only make 950 from the Charlie. Good catch!


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 18, 2016)

Thanks, bro. Guys like you have more flashlight experience in their discard drawer than I have in my entire flashlight life!

Be well.


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## Rob Babcock (Aug 18, 2016)

I'm on the lower rungs of flashlight knowledge here!:laughing: I'm the first to admit my ignorance of a lot of areas. Mostly I've been geeking out to lights since I got my first Mag-Lite back in the 80's. I've chased a lot of gimmicks over the years but by now I've worked out what is important to me in a light. I'll also say straight away that I like toys! To me there are toys and tools. Tools are the bombproof, never-say-die lights that I can depend on to work no matter what. They will generally not be the brightest nor utilize the latest and greatest emitters. Toys are the whiz-bang things with bells and whistles. I rely on tools but I like to play with toys. Eventually I'll probably get one of Chinese 2000+ lumen toys just to play around with.

In no way to do I mean to denigrate anyone's choices in a light. We each have to go with the stuff that suits our needs. We're lucky to live in a golden age of illumination technology!

Apropos of nothing, my priorities in order:

Reliability- It doesn't matter how bright it is if it doesn't work all the time, every time.
Durability- Really this is just an extension of reliability. But while I don't deliberately abuse lights I won't baby them, either. A WML has to survive recoil, drops, etc. An EDC light also must survive drops, water immersion, etc.
Features- For a tool I want one mode, or at most two. Switching must be instantaneous, simple and intuitive.
Tint- I prefer neutral lights and maybe slightly warm. There's a place for cooler ones but generally I like 'em warmer.
Output- This is probably the least important element, ironically. It needs to be bright enough to do the job but I'd rather have a 250 lumen light that's rugged and reliable than a 2000 lumen light that can't survive a 1 meter drop.


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## Dave D (Aug 18, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> There are some very expensive CR123 lights available, that are very durable, such as HDS and Malkoff, but, they use PWM. I wont buy lights with PWM any more.



Malkoff produce many different Drop-ins, the only one that has PWM is the M361/N triple output variant, the rest of their range do not have PWM.


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## Rob Babcock (Aug 18, 2016)

vadimax said:


> I you need runtime, not the lumens, AA is a must: there are Fujitsu FDK HR3U (Silver) NiMH batteries capable of 2700mAh. CR123A not even close to that capacity. And if what, there are always regular AA batteries available everywhere and cheap as dirt.



If you really need runtime why not a D cell then? An AA is much longer and larger than an CR123A, one would expect more juice.




Woods Walker said:


> These days it seems beyond size and forum factor the pros of CR123 are getting more questionable. Lithium ion 14500 are better in terms of capacity than 16340. Lithium primary AA are just as cold resistant etc etc etc compared to CR123. Advances in LED and drivers has made any differences in terms of high output less and less.



Lithium AA's seem to be a bit more expensive than CR123a batteries though. Kind of negates the advantage of economy and ubiquity. If you need to get lithium AA's at a big box store you're really gonna get raped (although the same is true for CR123A).

FWIW I am really liking the Titanium Innovations 14505. Basically it is a "CRAA123", same form factor as an AA but the specs of a CR123a. They work great in my AA Peak...an actual AA only drives it to birthday candle levels due to the low voltage. The 14505 really kicks up the output.


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## Rob Babcock (Aug 18, 2016)

mccraggen said:


> Wait wait, cr123 batteries smell? Please explain



I must confess I love the smell!


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## bykfixer (Aug 18, 2016)

Rob Babcock said:


> I must confess I love the smell!



X2... but didn't want to be the first to say it.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 18, 2016)

Rob Babcock said:


> If you really need runtime why not a D cell then? An AA is much longer and larger than an CR123A, one would expect more juice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I find AA lithium primaries occasional on clearance in B&M stores so for the limited times they get used the cost is low. I think the ideal solution is to buy a light with wider voltage range. For example the old school Quarks I have run both CR123, AA and lithium ion. All that was needed is a new body. Same for the Armytek Prime and the extra tubes for those are cheap. Having my cake and eating it as well. Toss in an AAA to AA cheap battery cover/spacer and in a pinch it's all good though 1xAAA isn't going to fly long on higher modes. Tested the AA/AAA thing with the Quark and it worked. Going to test with the AT Prime tonight. The first combo light I got in this reguard was the 2008 Olight T10/15.


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## Imon (Aug 18, 2016)

I'm a 16340 guy myself but lately with better and better low-discharge NiMH batteries coming out I'm digging the AA too.
The real answer to this question though is ... 18650! :devil:

Joking aside I'm surprised more manufacturers aren't making lights that support both cell types. 
I got a Zebralight SC80w when they were available and besides for the mediocre pocket clip it's a fantastic light. I've run it on CR123a, 16340s, AA primaries, 14500s, and 17500s. The Li-ion batteries do have a higher max brightness than the AA primary but they're both usable.


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## fresh eddie fresh (Aug 18, 2016)

I really like CR123s. The form factor is nice, at 3v, one CR123 takes up a third of the length of 2xAAs. Of course, it is just my personal preference. I just stock up on CR123s and it is no problem (Surefire is having a sale on them right now  ). 



Dave D said:


> Malkoff produce many different Drop-ins, the only one that has PWM is the M361/N triple output variant, the rest of their range do not have PWM.



It is true for the drop-ins, but also all of the MDC line (with the exception of the SHO), as well as most versions of the Wildcat (with the exception of the V1 and current one) exhibit PWM.


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## marsalla (Aug 18, 2016)

I think both options have merit based on each situation. Clearly advances in AA technology offer benefits. Personally I use cr123 lights in my car along with 18650 lights that can run on two cr123's. The reason is that I live in Phoenix and day time temps in my car can reach 140 degrees or more. 18650 batteries cant survive that temp very long at that temp. I agree that lithium primaries do well at cold and hot temps but I have both types of torches and need two types of batteries.


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## jon_slider (Aug 19, 2016)

Im really enjoying learning about the different uses and perspectives being discussed.



reppans said:


> Have you cake and eat it too - efficient, well regulated 0.9-4.2v boost/buck driven lights with mechanical clickies and swappable battery tubes like the old Quarks. Favorite config is a 2xCR123 tube running a 16650 since any chem 1x AAA/AA/CR123 can fit the tube and power the light in a pinch. Next up are 1xAA tubes since all the battery chemistries are represented... tune your performance by chemistry.



Great insights into battery tube options, thanks for the education.



Rob Babcock said:


> until the Surefires/Elzettas/Malkoffs/MDSs of the world start cranking out a wide assortment of such lights built around AA I expect CR123a-based lights to sell robustly.


I think you would be correct in suggesting CR123 batteries dominate the Serious Tactical use market at this time.

Im enjoying considering flashlight applications from your perspective. None of my lights are single mode, and none are CR123 
You have vastly more practical use for lights as tools, my application is definitely more like a toy. 




marsalla said:


> I think both options have merit based on each situation.
> ...
> I use cr123 lights in my car along with 18650 lights that can run on two cr123's.



That makes sense too. I can see how the CR123 market ties in to the 18650 market. Thanks for expanding my understanding.


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## Rob Babcock (Aug 19, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> I think you would be correct in suggesting CR123 batteries dominate the Serious Tactical use market at this time.
> 
> Im enjoying considering flashlight applications from your perspective. None of my lights are single mode, and none are CR123
> You have vastly more practical use for lights as tools, my application is definitely more like a toy.



I think most people that are hard users of lights gravitate towards those kinds of lights but there are some surprising exceptions. Earlier this week I was at a handgun class and during a break the instructor was showing off his EDC/carry light. Bear in mind he's a retired cop and carried it in a form fitted plastic belt scabbard. He was telling me his light had a strobe and proceeded to demonstrate it...well, he tried to. He couldn't get the intricate time of button pushes down! It wound up taking him a number of tries over a ten or fifteen second period to get the strobe to work! Since he was the one scoring my exam and qualification I didn't press him on the issue but I certainly wonder what tactical use such a strobe serves! It the bad guy supposed to patiently lower his gun and wait for the guy to figure out how his light works? :devil:

You make some great points, though. I hadn't realized that AA's had closed the gap so much with regards to power output. Maybe the future is moving towards lights that can operate on a wider range of cells and batteries. I for one am intrigued by rechargeable batteries but have been put off by the risk of the PCB cutting out just when I need my light to work. So far I've dabbled in Eneloops but that's it. I will probably have to play around with some of the high cap batteries like the 18650's. There really is no comparison power-wise! I recall seeing an Elzetta Bravo bored out to use an 18650 (or something close in size) and the performance was remarkable!


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## bykfixer (Aug 19, 2016)

If he was scoring your exam Rob.... why didn't you do the brown nose and show him how? lol. 

I like Streamlights idea in some lights where 1 click with a hold to change settings, or 2 quickies (and I do mean quick) to get strobe. 

I also like that there are some lights that can use aa or 123's.


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## Rob Babcock (Aug 19, 2016)

Hahaha! I can't figure out those @#&% multimode lights either!:laughing: That's why I stick with the ones with a simple UI.


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## bykfixer (Aug 19, 2016)

Rob Babcock said:


> Hahaha! I can't figure out those @#&% multimode lights either!:laughing: That's why I stick with the ones with a simple UI.



Pressing inviso like button.


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## roger-roger (Aug 19, 2016)

Been using an Insight Tech ST1 Procyon on my G19 for quite a while now, although there are still my Streamlight and Surefire on the back burners. In this application I'd be quite pissed to put up with a length increase from CR123 to AA.


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## bykfixer (Aug 19, 2016)

roger-roger said:


> Been using an Insight Tech ST1 Procyon on my G19 for quite a while now, although there are still my Streamlight and Surefire on the back burners. In this application I'd be quite pissed to put up with a length increase from CR123 to AA.



Roger that...

But my gosh how things have changed.


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## stateoftheart (Aug 20, 2016)

.




Originally Posted by *jon_slider* 

 
There are some very expensive CR123 lights available, that are very durable, such as HDS and Malkoff, but, they use PWM. I wont buy lights with PWM any more.
-------------------------------------

Didn't realize HDS lights used PWM?

I'm a fan of 3.0-3.7V batteries because of their high output abilities.


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## Imon (Aug 20, 2016)

stateoftheart said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



HDS lights don't use PWM - they're current controlled.
Also, I think hysteria over PWM has become a bit overblown on CPF. It may just be me but I don't remember it being this bad when I first joined.

It really depends on the light for me. Zebralight uses PWM on their lights but it's at a frequency much higher than can be detected by the human eye. Unless I'm staring intensely at most lights now that use PWM I can't tell.
I get the feeling that a lot of people if they know a light has a PWM controller they prime themselves to be disappointed by it. It's like when you tell someone a cheap wine is really an expensive one they think it tastes better than if they knew it was a cheap wine. It's largely about expectations.


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## FNG (Aug 20, 2016)

Like Rob and others have said, I like CR123 lights for their output/size ratio. The lights that I like have 1 or two settings (see sig) and are used in short bursts so runtime isn't that important since I usually have spares kept close by. A CR123 in something like the Quark QTL will give me months of usable light before needing to be replaced. And much much longer for non primary lights. I also keep spare lithium AAs around too (everyone should, *especially* members on this site) so I really don't understand the availability argument. 



bykfixer said:


> But my gosh how things have changed.
> zpsavdj60qw.jpg



On a serious note, things have changed quite a bit from the 80s when British SAS were sticking/taping huge Maglites to their MP5s during Operation Nimrod.

http://www.specialforcesnews.com/2015/08/british-sas-1980-embassy-siege/


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## reppans (Aug 20, 2016)

HDS does not use PWM, nor do modern Zebralights AFAIK (my SC52 does not) - although an early H51w taught me all about slloowww PWM, and that was like dropping a tab of acid . 

My issue with PWM is that, after that ZL, I learned how to easily see it with the naked eye, and now can't stop seeing it. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. Still, one of my favorite lights uses it, but is of a high enough frequency that I can't see it. I find the MDC rather slow. PWM doesn't give me epileptic fits or anything, it's just an unnatural visual effect that makes me do double-takes... annoying when you can't avoid seeing it. 



FNG said:


> ... so I really don't understand the availability argument.



As far as battery versatility and availability is concerned, I could care less around home. We've had a number of week-long power outages and My home is well stocked with primaries, rechargeables, solar panels (as most CPF members are), and an RV generator. But I'm an ultra-light commuter/traveler type (air travel, backpacking, train commuting, EDC, etc) and prefer not lugging around many spare batts. The few times I was worried about lighting (eg, backpacking partner's light failure, and trapped in NYC during 2003 Northeast Blackout, both away from home) we had enough flashlights, and enough batteries, just not the right type of batteries for the remaining flashlights (or perhaps just lacking good battery-MacGyver skills). So now my EDC/travel lights (the only important ones) run many/any batteries, and in a real pinch, I like the option to cannibalize the powerful cell from my flashlight to recharge my smartphone, and then run the light from any lesser scavenged or bought cell.


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## eraursls1984 (Aug 21, 2016)

reppans said:


> HDS does not use PWM, nor do modern Zebralights AFAIK (my SC52 does not) - although an early H51w taught me all about slloowww PWM, and that was like dropping a tab of acid .


Im pretty sure current Zebralights do use a form of PWM, they just don't go from max to zero. I also think PWM has been blown out of proportion. Sure, some lights have a bad case, but most lights with PWM now have such a high frequency and/or some other trick to mitigate the effects of noticeable PWM.


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 21, 2016)

When I asked selfbuilt about the ripple that maukka measured in the output of his *ZebraLight SC5Fc*, selfbuilt indicated that he did not think it was due to PWM. Note at the bottom of the following oscilloscope shot that the signal varies between a max of 5.28V and a min of 4.88V.



maukka said:


> Oscilloscope screenshot at H2 ("81 lm").





selfbuilt said:


> That pattern is definitely not consistent with PWM. I have seen many oscillating signals like that over the years (on current-controlled lights). They are rarely intense enough to be detectable visually (except perhaps when shining on a fan or running water). Sometimes they are, which people mistakenly put down to PWM. I am unclear as to source of them, but it does seem to be intrinsic to many circuit designs.
> 
> In the case of my SC5, I didn't detect any on my oscilloscope with my sample. The above may simply be variability between lights, or differing sensitivity thresholds among oscilloscopes. As always though, it comes down to whether or not it is visually detectable. These sorts of signals do not appear to affect efficiency.



Even maukka asked whether this sort of modulation should be called PWM. 



maukka said:


> Because the output never drops to zero like in a traditional PWM, it is very difficult if not impossible to see with the naked eye. I cannot see it even if I wave the light itself or my hand in front of it like a madman.
> 
> Does someone know if this sort of low amplitude modulation is actually even called pulse width modulation or is it something else altogether?



Using the numbers above, the average signal = (5.28 – 4.88) / 2 = 5.08. The amplitude of the ripple is therefore only 0.2, or about 3.9%. If that is PWM, it is not very effective. I doubt it lowers the output very much from max.

That said, it is worth noting that the driver in the *BLF A6* does have a PWM that appears like a ripple. The driver blends output from a FET and a single 7135 chip. The latter, I believe, uses PWM that ranges from 0% to 100%, but, at least in most modes, its amplitude is small compared to the larger FET output it is blended with.


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## CuriousOne (Aug 21, 2016)

A lot of manufacturers recommend adding a capacitor parallel to led - this reduces voltage spikes and provides longer lifespan of the led. If we fed such led with PWM, output will look like the scheme shown above.


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 21, 2016)

CuriousOne said:


> A lot of manufacturers recommend adding a capacitor parallel to led - this reduces voltage spikes and provides longer lifespan of the led. If we fed such led with PWM, output will look like the scheme shown above.




Yeah, but wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the PWM? With a capacitor providing current when the driver stops, the LED won't have a chance to turn off, or at least will be off for a shorter period. And that, of course, is what we see above. The signal never cuts off. 

Can you get a proper Low mode out of such a scheme?


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## reppans (Aug 21, 2016)

Since we are splitting hairs, I think this old photo (a time exposure sweep) is a pretty good visual representation of the progression from "oscillation noise" to true PWM. L to R: SC52, Quark AA, D25A and MDC AA. I swept them all together, and fast as I can possibly swing my arms. Focus on the very bottom of the beam swipes.






IMHO: the SC52 and Quark show oscillation noise, and are undetectable with the naked eye (which I consider myself pretty good at), and an HDS will look similar, but this is not PWM. By my definition, the D25A crosses the line of true PWM (on ~3 modes) but I really need to concentrate to see this one (and it's one of my favorite lights, own a half dozen).... it is the fastest PWM frequency I've seen/photographed. The MDC AA is kinda slow, and it see it annoyingly frequently. 

But if you don't know how or what to look for, my advice is - do not learn!


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## jon_slider (Aug 21, 2016)

reppans said:


> Since we are splitting hairs, I think this old photo (a time exposure sweep) is a pretty good visual representation of the progression from "oscillation noise" to true PWM. L to R: SC52, Quark AA, D25A and MDC AA. I swept them all together, and fast as I can possibly swing my arms. Focus on the very bottom of the beam swipes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your photos of pulsed lighting are second to none! I really appreciate your posts.

I first became aware of PWM when seeing interference bands in some iPhone photos from a Prometheus Beta Copper. I then learned that my pre Oct 2015, Maratacs did the same thing, and that its PWM was at 200hz. (both were made by Lumintop, who now no longer uses a PWM driver in the Maratacs, Tools, and Worms. The Betas still have it because they are old stock)

As Ive begun to keep track of pulsed lights Ive started to wonder if we can catalog their speeds.

Malkoff told me the PWM he uses is 310hz, I would be curious to know the speeds of the others in the pictures.

Ive started to believe that pulses (aka oscillation, noise, circuit noise) is a more accurate term than PWM for lights like Zebra, Eagle, and HDS, since they dont drop to full zero power between pulses.

speaking of circuit noise, of the 4 lights shown above, none of which I own, do any of them make an audio noise. For example, I have seen reports of HDS lights making a whining noise on low. How about the zebras, eagles and 3 mode Malkoffs, do they whine?


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## Lynx_Arc (Aug 21, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> speaking of circuit noise, of the 4 lights shown above, none of which I own, do any of them make an audio noise. For example, I have seen reports of HDS lights making a whining noise on low. How about the zebras, eagles and 3 mode Malkoffs, do they whine?


Most likely they hum or whine for the same reason transformers make noise as boost or buck circuit lights have a transformer in them converting DC to AC then running it through a coil (transformer) to boost or buck the voltage then changing it back to DC.


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## reppans (Aug 21, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> Your photos of pulsed lighting are second to none! I really appreciate your posts.
> 
> Malkoff told me the PWM he uses is 310hz, I would be curious to know the speeds of the others in the pictures.
> 
> speaking of circuit noise, of the 4 lights shown above, none of which I own, do any of them make an audio noise. For example, I have seen reports of HDS lights making a whining noise on low. How about the zebras, eagles and 3 mode Malkoffs, do they whine?



Thanks! Appreciate that.

I don't know my hz, can't help you there. In theory, you can count dots between the D25A and MDC in the pix for a given length and extrapolate.

As a general rule I previously noticed that 1xAA boost drivers tend to have inducer whine while buck drivers with Li-ions are silent, but also whine is quite sample specific - I have multiple copies of some lights. Just checking a few lights with the a batt inside: a D25A and MDC AA with Eneloop whined 1or2 modes, SC52 and V11R with Eneloop was quiet, and a Quark and HDS with Li-ions were quiet. It should be noted that this "whine" is like hearing test stuff... can only hear it when I stuff the light into my ear canal. Also, I think the 2 whiners matching my PWM lights is coincidental - I know some of my Quarks will whine on 1xEneloops, and I consider them current regulated.


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 21, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> Your photos of pulsed lighting are second to none! I really appreciate your posts.



+1


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## jon_slider (Aug 21, 2016)

KeepingItLight said:


> … ZebraLight SC5Fc, … signal varies between a max of 5.28V and a min of 4.88V.


great info, thanks!
My guess is the blurriness of the the Zebra and Quark traces are because the LED is not cycling completely OFF. The voltage is cycling up and down in a range that never drops to zero



reppans said:


> In theory, you can count dots… I think the 2 whiners matching my PWM lights is coincidental - I know some of my Quarks will whine on 1xEneloops, and I consider them current regulated.



thanks for the food for thought
my first impressions on your comments, and I did count dots, that was a good idea! 

the whiners are 2 PWM lights on Eneloop(MDC and Eagle), and 1 pulsed light (quark) on Eneloop. All 3 whine through boost circuits
the non whiners are Pulsed lights using buck circuits with LiIon power
the quark will whine or not depending on what you feed it and whether it is bucking or boosting 

dot count results
MDC 310hz, whiner on Eneloop, obvious PWM for someone skilled in detection
Quark 465hz, silent on LiIon, whiner on Eneloop. Pulses barely detectable, even for someone skilled in detection
HDS ?hz, silent on LiIon
D25a 930hz, whiner on Eneloop, PWM is detectable but not easily, for someone highly skilled in detection
Zebra 930hz or slightly more. Almost completely undetectable as PWM in actual use. Crossing the 1000+hz barrier seems to be mostly undetectable. Also Zebra uses relatively small voltage drops, far above Zero as in traditional PWM.



reppans said:


>



The distinct dots of the Eagle and MDC seem to demonstrate true PWM with an OFF cycle.
the trace of your quark looks pulsed, and the whine tends to support the possible interpretation that the voltage fluctuations are present, but I agree that the Quark is not true PWM, as the blurr between the dots suggests voltage is never dropping to Zero. Same case as the Zebra, though the Quark pulse rate is at least half as fast as the Zebra.

thank you for the in depth PWM tangent, to come around to the original topic
is there any advantage to CR123 having more non pulsed or NoPWM options in the marketplace, than AA lights? Im relatively new, and am just forming an impression that CR123 lights are more likely to use PWM than AA lights, but Im not sure that is true.


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## reppans (Aug 22, 2016)

Yup distinct dots incl full off cycles (true PWM) and blurry are at least partially on.

I think the Quark used for that photo was rather old (5+yrs?) and modded - judging by the tint, it's probably my N219 Quark. You usually don't see that much oscillation noise a quark beam. I wouldn't generalize off that sample. 

As mentioned earlier whine can be also be sample specific - I just tested 2 new Quarks (for output and current draw) and they were both silent on 1 Eneloop or 14500. But I have one you can hear whine from a few feet away, and similarly loud S15. But otherwise whine is of little concern and more of a hearing test device than anything noticeable in normal use. 

Can't answer on CR123s, I only just started using them when I got the HDS, and I really only use 16340s in it.


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## steeps (Aug 22, 2017)

reppans said:


> HDS does not use PWM, nor do modern Zebralights AFAIK (my SC52 does not) - although an early H51w taught me all about slloowww PWM, and that was like dropping a tab of acid .
> 
> My issue with PWM is that, after that ZL, I learned how to easily see it with the naked eye, and now can't stop seeing it. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. Still, one of my favorite lights uses it, but is of a high enough frequency that I can't see it. I find the MDC rather slow. PWM doesn't give me epileptic fits or anything, it's just an unnatural visual effect that makes me do double-takes... annoying when you can't avoid seeing it.
> 
> ...



Do you have a link to what you're carrying now and how you MacGyver it?


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## archimedes (Aug 23, 2017)

steeps said:


> Do you have a link to what you're carrying now and how you MacGyver it?


Excellent thread by @reppans , here ...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/368695


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## jon_slider (Aug 23, 2017)

here is another classic reppans


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## leon2245 (Aug 23, 2017)

Well, i like that they can be thinner, but..

i love the smell of lithium in the morning.


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## Tixx (Aug 23, 2017)

kkay said:


> I can't really explain it. They have an odor to me. I have them in a plastic storage container, but it is not the container I smell. Even when I put in a new battery, you can smell where the old one was in the flashlight. This is the only box I've ever bought. Have others not experienced the same thing?



I love that smell! Probably really bad for you.


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## bykfixer (Aug 28, 2017)

Tixx said:


> I love that smell! Probably really bad for you.



Me too.

Eh, probably no worse than chasing the mosquito spraying truck when I was a little kid or painting model cars in non ventilated rooms.... 'cept for my 6 toe'd kids being born blind I don't see any reason to be concerned...

Eh, just kidding. I do like the smell but don't get all up close and huff it. I always wondered if it's vented gas or just the normal smell... like new cars or fresh mowed grass...


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## terjee (Aug 29, 2017)

bykfixer said:


> I do like the smell but don't get all up close and huff it. I always wondered if it's vented gas or just the normal smell... like new cars or fresh mowed grass...



Tiny amount of ethers from evaporated electrolyte, in normal situations, well below workplace hazard limits. Also, you can smell this from a few ppm, so it's tiny amounts even if you can detect them. But you know, if you have them in a box, don't stick your nose in the box and inhale deeply. ;-)


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## pipspeak (Aug 29, 2017)

mccraggen said:


> Hey guys, is there any real advantage to using a AA battery flashlight apart from the availability of the battery?



Interesting debate. IMO, no, but availability of the battery is a huge deal. Eneloops, lithiums, or just plain old Duracells when in the middle of nowhere make the AA format insanely flexible and I always have some in my bag for other gadgets. Pretty much the only flashlight I ever take when traveling is my Zebralight unless I know I'll need something with more grunt, in which case a 2xCR123/18650 light is my preference.


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