# Stupid Question: Are 123 or AA batteries ruined or compromised after submersion?



## Fooboy (Dec 17, 2007)

If batteries ... 123, AA, Lithium AA ... are exposed to water or submerged for a short time, are they ruined - or is there any danger in running them after drying? 

None of my batteries got wet, but I was just curious regarding emergency preparedness and that was all you got around.

Thanks!


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## GarageBoy (Dec 17, 2007)

The 123s have a gas vent. Not sure how water tight that is. AAs seem to be fine, provided that they did not short dead.


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## Art Vandelay (Dec 17, 2007)

You don't want to mix lithium and water, but a 123 or AA should be sealed well enough to handle briefly getting wet with fresh water if they are completely dried off.


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## nanoWatt (Dec 17, 2007)

When I was younger I put some cell, though I don't recall if it was a 9V or a C battery into the tub, and left it for a few hours. The stuff inside (acid?) does leak out after some time, or at least it did with those.


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## dudemar (Dec 17, 2007)

I dropped a pair of Pila 300P's in the toilet by accident, with #1 in the water.:green: After I washed it with soap and water and let it dry for a week, it works perfectly fine. I'm not sure if the insides are corroded/damaged, but everything seems to be in perfect working order.

Pilas are mighty tough cells, I must say.

I can't speak for CR123's, never tried it. I probably won't, unless it's on accident.

Dudemar


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## D-Dog (Dec 17, 2007)

Alright, I might be the  one here, but isn't fresh water conductive unless it is deionized? In turn wouldn't this mean the battery would short right away? Or am I missing something and I can take my 18650's with me in the shower next time lol


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## dudemar (Dec 17, 2007)

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but it's interesting you mentioned that. After I let my 300P's dry for a week, they retained enough of a charge to light up a LF EO-9! Amazing!

Dudemar


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## D-Dog (Dec 17, 2007)

I know that someone tested some new Li cells underwater for cooling, however I am pretty sure it was deionized which would elimanate the chance of a short. Also interesting to note, the seal on a lithium battery is VERY watertight. It has to be, as otherwise the water vapor (even smaller than liquid water) would get into the cells over time and kill them (while also creating a time bomb...)

So I can shower with Li-ion batteries? lol


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## Illum (Dec 17, 2007)

123A cells have a vent seal, as stated above, but also that when crimped the top vent holes contain a pocket of air....unless the air was forced out by some sort of an angled concussion, I see no reason for that pocket of air to be flooded or the compromise of a plastic seal

AA cells, if contacted by water, should be dried out as soon as possible....I don't know about these coppertops, but for early energizers generations, some Carbon zincs and 9V cells, rust has been observed on the contact areas 

if its salt water we're talking about, all bets are off...even if the cell survives, the contacts may cause intermittent contact.


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## D-Dog (Dec 17, 2007)

Thanks for clearing that up Illum 

So that is why the light in the ?G2? abuse thread still ran, even after the lens cracked and water got inside?

So if you drop a 18650 in a toilet, take in the shower, etc... you should be fine as long as you make sure no water gets in the vent area?

Srry if it's annoying answering potentially some of the same things... but I'm just making sure I have this right, as Li-ions are nothing to kid around with


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## Burgess (Dec 18, 2007)

what about Energizer Lithium AA's (L91) ?


Can they stand to get wet ?


Dunked & submerged ?

_


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 18, 2007)

Early GAT lights had the CR123 exposed completley to the elements, and were proven ok underwater.

Bill


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## dudemar (Dec 18, 2007)

Thanks for mentioning that Bullzeyebill, I always wondered about that part of the GAT light!

Dudemar


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## jzmtl (Dec 18, 2007)

D-Dog said:


> Alright, I might be the  one here, but isn't fresh water conductive unless it is deionized? In turn wouldn't this mean the battery would short right away? Or am I missing something and I can take my 18650's with me in the shower next time lol




This is what a safety instructor told me. Fresh water is not conductive enough to cause any problem. An old trick of WD 40 salesman is to spray a corded drill with WD40 and dip it into a bucket of tap water, and shows it still working underwater. But what people don't know is the drill will work perfectly fine underwater even without WD40 contrary to popular belief.

I don't knoow how valid is it. He claim he did the dip a running drill into water many times before, but I ain't gona try that no matter what he says.


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## IcantC (Dec 18, 2007)

dudemar said:


> I dropped a pair of Pila 300P's in the toilet by accident, with #1 in the water.:green: After I washed it with soap and water and let it dry for a week, it works perfectly fine. I'm not sure if the insides are corroded/damaged, but everything seems to be in perfect working order.
> 
> Pilas are mighty tough cells, I must say.
> 
> ...


 

Ewww that is so nasty


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 18, 2007)

Considering the price of Pila's I would have rescued them from #2.

Bill


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## Illum (Dec 18, 2007)

I've had the privilege of making the mistake of leaving my plastic lined EDC cells in a shirt pocket, machine wash cold, rinse, final spin...oops forgot to add softener, no worries, 2nd rinse, second final spin.. tumble dry in this mess it transferred itself into a sock....and escaped detection by mom and returned into my room. 

the plastic bags torn up pretty good, and the cells were wet, left it out to dry, last I remember I exhausted that set of cells in my A2 sometime ago, no change in performance


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## MikeLip (Dec 18, 2007)

D-Dog said:


> Alright, I might be the  one here, but isn't fresh water conductive unless it is deionized? In turn wouldn't this mean the battery would short right away? Or am I missing something and I can take my 18650's with me in the shower next time lol



DI water is not necessarily less conductive than normal tap water, which is to say not very. Your light will not short out even if submerged. Try dropping a running flashlight into a tub of water. It will continue to run. This has been experimentally proven by my daughter and our toilet. At the voltages encountered in a normal LED or incan light current through the water is very small. Distilled water IS less conductive than tap.

The envelope of a hot incan may shatter due to the sudden temperature change, but nothing will go up in a fireball.


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## jzmtl (Dec 18, 2007)

MikeLip said:


> Try dropping a running flashlight into a tub of water. It will continue to run. This has been experimentally proven by my daughter and our toilet.



Note to self, don't by lights from mikelip.


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## MikeLip (Dec 18, 2007)

jzmtl said:


> Note to self, don't by lights from mikelip.


 She is 17 now, and although I wonder sometimes (often) if she's really any more sensible than she was when she was 4, she hasn't dropped anything in the toilet for a LONG time!


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## smvtsailor (Dec 18, 2007)

Just to get some information together on this water conductivity issue:

Distilled water is completely purified- no ions from dissolved salts/minerals. Because there are no impurities and water has an extremely small ionization constant, there is not a high enough concentration of dissociated ions to conduct electricity.
Tap water is more conductive than distilled water. It has some impurities, which dissociate in water to form ions. These ions assist in carrying charge and therefore increase the conductivity of water.
Salt water is extremely conductive (until a certain concentration of salt). This is due to the large number of dissociated impurities, causing a large concentration of ions in the water.

Batteries probably have the highest chance of surviving a dip in distilled water, and the lowest chance of surviving a dip in salt water.


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## ltiu (Dec 18, 2007)

Burgess said:


> what about Energizer Lithium AA's (L91) ?
> 
> 
> Can they stand to get wet ?
> ...



I brought 8 brand new still in the bubble pack Energizer Lithium L91s with me to a cave with dripping and pooled water. The battery pack was not water proof and water got in. I opened the pack with condensation around the plastic bubble pack. I let the 8 L91s stand on the kitchen counter for a few days. I used those L91s later with no problems.


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## Burgess (Dec 18, 2007)

Thank you.

:thumbsup:
_


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## D-Dog (Dec 18, 2007)

I love how the title of the thread is "Stupid Question", yet this is the thread I have learned the most from for a long time. Thanks again for starting it and maybe this comming week I will test some batteries in the sink for yall


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## Illum (Dec 18, 2007)

dudemar said:


> Thanks for mentioning that Bullzeyebill, I always wondered about that part of the GAT light!
> 
> Dudemar



by what I've read in the past on gatlights, supposedly the ends of the cells are pretty snug with the contact ends and is actually submersible


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## Burgess (Dec 18, 2007)

Gee ,


May i suggest that you perform yer' testing *outdoors*,
just for safety sake ?


Yes, i realize that you're located in New Jersey,
and it's rather cold right now. 


Just a suggestion.

_


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## D-Dog (Dec 18, 2007)

Yea, we have break next week so if I have time then... Don't worry, I won't do anything crazy, probably dunk a battery or two in a bucket, wait a few minuites, let the cell dry out and do a comparative voltage test. This is IF I can get this all together 

Would love to give back to the CPF community any way I can 

So far I have:

nicad AA, 9volt, c, d, sub c, probs more...

nimh AA, AAA, 

Lithium CR2, 18650, 5 different types of button cells

Alkaline AA, AAA, c, d, 9volt

Remember... still a big IF


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## Alan B (Dec 18, 2007)

The conductivity of water, even ionized with salt, is far poorer than metal. So it would take a long time to drain the battery when "shorted" by water.

I helped my daughter do a science experiment years ago with water, two AA cells in series and a red LED. If I remember correctly, with a lot of salt in the water, and the probes not too far apart in the water, we could light the LED. This required only a few milliamps.

-- Alan


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## TorchBoy (Dec 18, 2007)

I've heard that saltwater is so bad that your only hope for a torch etc dropped into saltwater might be to take the battery out then rinse it (edit: the device, that is) in fresh water before drying. But that's because of the salt and corrosion. No water is a superconductor, even with salt in it. Cars drive off wharfs into harbours and their windscreen wipers still work underwater. (What you can see on TV, eh?)


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## dudemar (Dec 19, 2007)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Considering the price of Pila's I would have rescued them from #2.
> 
> Bill



LOL that is so funny! I *was* wondering what I would've done if there was #2 in there...  I would've kept the light, but the batteries... well let's just say it would depend on how much #2 is *caked* on inside and out!

You are right though, at $22-$27 a pop they're not cheap - but they're very much worth it.

Dudemar


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## D-Dog (Dec 19, 2007)

dudemar said:


> LOL that is so funny! I *was* wondering what I would've done if there was #2 in there...  I would've kept the light, but the batteries... well let's just say it would depend on how much #2 is *caked* on inside and out!
> 
> You are right though, at $22-$27 a pop they're not cheap - but they're very much worth it.
> 
> Dudemar


 
Not to get OT, but what makes the $25 Pila battery better than a $12 protected AW?

and in response to what was asked, thats tough... I probably would resuce them... though if it's diarrhea... well...:sick2:


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## Illum (Dec 19, 2007)

D-Dog said:


> Not to get OT, but what makes the $25 Pila battery better than a $12 protected AW?
> 
> and in response to what was asked, thats tough... I probably would resuce them... though if it's diarrhea... well...:sick2:



well, for one thing AW's protection circuits don't allow high current discharge to occur, so certain hotwires cannot run on AW protected cells effectively or not at all
and heres a good place to start reading 
*Pila vs. AW*


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## dudemar (Dec 19, 2007)

Illum_the_nation said:


> and heres a good place to start reading
> *Pila vs. AW*



Thanks for the link!:twothumbs


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## D-Dog (Dec 20, 2007)

dudemar said:


> Thanks for the link!:twothumbs


 
Yes, thanks a bunch 

So from what I understand, while the AW's may be "Fenix's", the Pila's are "Surefires", much more durable and probably dependable too in high drain lights.


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## broadgage (Dec 20, 2007)

IMHO any cell that has got wet, should be dried and put into use, not stored long term.
Even clean water contains minute traces of salt, as the water dries these salt traces would remain on the outside of the cell and provide a very slightly conductive path thtrough which the cell could discharge.
This discharge would be extremly slow and probably unoticed in normal use, but might impair the long term storage of the cell.

I believe that suppliers of button/coin cells often recomend that they are not touched with the fingers when being installed.
This is because the salt on the fingers (from perspiration) could leave a conductive path on the outside of the cell and cause it to run down.
Coin or button cells are more vulnerable due the proximity of the positive and negative terminals, and the low capacity of the cell.


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## SilverFox (Dec 20, 2007)

Hello Fooboy,

I live in the Pacific Northwest. It rains a lot here.

During camping and kayaking trips, it is not unusual to end up with batteries (and lights...) that are wet. I have had no problems with wet cells during these trips, but after the trip is over I make sure those cells are rinsed off, dried, and put aside for immediate use. I do not put them into storage. This is for primary cells.

With rechargeable cells, I also rinse them off then run them through a couple of charge/discharge cycles to heat them up and dry them out and check them out. Lights and batteries that I use around salt water get an application of "Corrosion Block." I have not had any issues with either Li-Ion or NiMh cells, but have had some corrosion issues with some of my lights before I started using the Corrosion Block.

I might add that while dive lights do a very good job of sealing the bad stuff out, you still have to replace the cells when they run down.

Tom


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## Illum (Dec 20, 2007)

I provide what I can 



broadgage said:


> Even clean water contains minute traces of salt, as the water dries these salt traces would remain on the outside of the cell and provide a very slightly conductive path thtrough which the cell could discharge.
> This discharge would be extremly slow and probably unoticed in normal use, but might impair the long term storage of the cell.
> 
> I believe that suppliers of button/coin cells often recomend that they are not touched with the fingers when being installed.



erm...what your observing may be a form of self-discharge caused by natural chemical breakdown within the cell...the worst fluid can do is erode the outer casing if I understand correctly:thinking:
I haven't heard of any special handling precautions for button cells here in the US

I can't say for salt, but where I am tap water contains a fairly significant level of calcites...it doesn't eat metal, it just accumulates on it over time...but unless I'm washing my batteries everyday for a couple years [the same way I use my shower head] no accumulation or damage can be observed even with a magnifying glass


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## D-Dog (Dec 20, 2007)

Hmmm... I have heard that too. Wonder why a finger print is so bad on a 2016 for example, although those batteries do have very low capacities and even a small draw could kill them.


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## SilverFox (Dec 20, 2007)

Hello Illum the nation,

You are forgetting that there needs to be a separation between the + and - of a cell. If your finger residue, or any other residue, builds up on the separator, it can loose its dielectric properties and cause a "soft" short. This causes an increase in self discharge.

Tom


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## Illum (Dec 21, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Illum the nation,
> 
> You are forgetting that there needs to be a separation between the + and - of a cell. If your finger residue, or any other residue, builds up on the separator, it can loose its dielectric properties and cause a "soft" short. This causes an increase in self discharge.
> 
> Tom



I didn't forget, I didn't know this part
:thanks: for the info


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## jrv (Dec 23, 2007)

Art Vandelay said:


> You don't want to mix lithium and water, but a 123 or AA should be sealed well enough to handle briefly getting wet with fresh water if they are completely dried off.


How do the guts of a Lithium battery react with water?

I'm considering storing all of my spare Lithium cells, primary and secondary, at the bottom of a large clay plant pot in the garage, along with several plastic bottles of water.

The theory is that if a battery "vents with flame" it will burn a hole in one of the water bottles, flooding the pot. While the water might not put the chemical fire out - I have no idea - it will absorb a fair amount of energy, and hopefully the battery with exhaust itself trying to heat the water rather than igniting the house!

(i.e., a poor man's battery bunker designed to absorb a lot of heat energy)

But, this idea depends on Lithium / water mixing not making things worse.


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## jzmtl (Dec 23, 2007)

jrv said:


> How do the guts of a Lithium battery react with water?
> 
> I'm considering storing all of my spare Lithium cells, primary and secondary, at the bottom of a large clay plant pot in the garage, along with several plastic bottles of water.
> 
> ...



Is it pure lithium in li battery? If so it'll react and release hydrogen, and if there are enough heat...

3, 2, 1, we have ignition.


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## jrv (Dec 23, 2007)

jzmtl said:


> Is it pure lithium in li battery? If so it'll react and release hydrogen, and if there are enough heat...
> 
> 3, 2, 1, we have ignition.


There's already ignition if the battery manages to burn through the side of the water bottle.

I don't think there's any pure Lithium in any of these batteries but that may not help if the other chemicals in the battery react badly with water, toxic fumes being a concern.

The idea is that if you can't put the LIthium fire out then try to absorb the heat so it doesn't ignite the surroundings. A gallon of water will absorb a lot of heat from an 18650 ... but I'm not a chemist and I fear making things worse.


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## SilverFox (Dec 23, 2007)

Hello Jrv,

The RC people charge under a zip loc bag of sand. If the battery catches on fire, it burns through the plastic bag and the sand smothers the fire. It actually works quite well from the demonstrations I have seen.

Tom


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## TorchBoy (Dec 24, 2007)

I'd personally go with the dry sand idea. I think the water would result in lots of lithium hydroxide, maybe hydrogen gas, etc.


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## Art Vandelay (Dec 24, 2007)

jrv said:


> How do the guts of a Lithium battery react with water?
> 
> I'm considering storing all of my spare Lithium cells, primary and secondary, at the bottom of a large clay plant pot in the garage, along with several plastic bottles of water.
> 
> ...



Here is a video of lithium in water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ypUVpwgcAA

Here is a video of a guy doing his best to earn a Darwin award with what looks like a Battery Station battery.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7abq34mckg&feature=related

Flame is only part of the problem. The gas is toxic. 

I'd follow the advice of SilverFox. He knows a great deal about batteries.


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## jrv (Dec 24, 2007)

Art Vandelay said:


> Here is a video of lithium in water.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ypUVpwgcAA
> 
> Here is a video of a guy doing his best to earn a Darwin award with what looks like a Battery Station battery.
> ...


Neither video shows a particularly vigorous reaction - the energy would be easily contained, and the water wasn't boiled so the heat can be controlled too. The fumes on the other hand...

Does the sand just absorb the kinetic energy and keep the battery remnants in place to burn out without igniting walls, etc? Or do some stages of combustion require oxygen that the sand blocks? The difference is, in the latter case the mess would still be problematic to clean up if removing the sand supplies oxygen and starts the reaction up again.

I may go looking for an old outdoor grill - store the batteries where the fire used to be and bags of sand on the grill. No problems with water bottles freezing this way too.


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## Daniel_sk (Dec 24, 2007)

Sand in a bag is a better idea. It would take a LONG time to burn a hole into a plastic bottle filled with water, because the water will absorb the heat. Everything else would catch fire until that happens. It's like the old trick - you can boil water in a pot made of paper.


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## SilverFox (Dec 24, 2007)

Hello Jrv,

As I understand it, in order for the process to continue you need heat and a combustible material and oxygen. The sand smothers and cools the event. When you move the sand, it does not start up again because the heat is gone.

The RC people have tested this with their Li-Po packs and found it to be very effective.

Tom


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