# Arctic Silver or AA alternative



## videoman (Mar 20, 2011)

Any other adhesive like AA or ceramic out there that is way cheaper than the Arctic ones? I need a slow setting one that has a good electrical insulating properties as my use would be to mount drivers to aluminum heatsinks. It is not for flashlight application. I tried Fujik from DX but it does not seem to transfer heat properly even though it is a good insulator. Any ceramic or similar adhesives out there that come in oz. sizes rather than grams ? Is JB weld really electrically non-conductive ?


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## slavun (Mar 20, 2011)

Artic Cooling MX-4 and Artic Ceramique are very good choices for electrically non-conductive thermal greases.


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## Yoda4561 (Mar 20, 2011)

But unfortunately those don't act as an adhesive in this application. Might want to inquire with nailbender or Gene Malkoff about the stuff they use to pot their drivers with.


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## slavun (Mar 20, 2011)

It might help you. One of the best thermal compound manufacturer is ShinEtsu. There are some products to see:

KE44-sealing, insulation, non-corrosive, strong adhesion 
KE45-UL94HB certification, high adhesion, non-corrosive, 
KE347-universal type RTV, low viscosity, moisture, good 
KE3497-MIL qualified products, to prevent electrical short-circuit use, good insulation 
KE4896-low molecular weight, non-corrosive, general and then with the seal with the UL Safety Certification 
KE40RTV-94V-0 certification, strong adhesive, non-corrosive, Display 
KE402-94V-0 Electrical Then, insulation, sealing with 
KE3490-94V-0 low molecular weight, high temperature resistance, excellent flame resistance of 
KE3494-thermal plastic 
KE4560-heat type, thermal conductivity of 0.84W / m K 
KE3493-high thermal conductivity, thermal conductivity of 1.67W / m K 
KE441-KE445 high adhesion, coated, heating pipe sealing 
KE3475-no corrosion, for high-demand electronic contact, drape, etc. 
KE45TS-mobility, high adhesion, ultra-thin coated, moisture-proof use 
KE1204-electronic potting glue, two-component liquid, commonly used electronic potting adhesive, after curing � � elastic rubber body temperature -50 to 200 degrees 
G746-thermal compound - Oil-shaped - White - common type, thermal conductivity of 0.92W / m K, resin sealed transistor with 
G747-thermal compound - Oil-shaped - White - G746 increased the thermal conductivity, thermal conductivity of 1.09W / m K 
KS612-thermal compound - Oil-shaped - White - Heat use, thermal conductivity of 0.63W / m K 
KS609-thermal compound - Oil-shaped - White - Common use, thermal conductivity of 0.75W / m K 
KF96-silicone oil - liquid - colorless and transparent - general use, apply to electronic, electrical appliances, moisture, insulation 
KF99-silicone oil - liquid - colorless and transparent 
KR112-silicone - Liquid - colorless and transparent 
KR251-silicone - Liquid - colorless and transparent 
KR255-silicone - Liquid - colorless and transparent 
KE17-mold molding plastic - two-component - off-white - hardness of 50, operating time 30 minutes 
KE24-mold molding plastic - two-component - off-white - hardness of 80, operating time 30 minutes 
KE112-mold molding plastic - two-component - Gray - hardness of 60, operating time 60 minutes 
G30-lubricants - Grease-like - off-white paste - low-temperature lubrication, general use 
G40M-lubricants - Grease-like - Beige Oil-like - high-temperature lubrication use, in line with the U.S. MIL-L-15719A standard 
G501-lubricants - Grease-like - white - light yellow oil-like - plastic parts, compressor bearing lubrication with marked effect 
G330/G332- Lubricants - Grease-like - yellow grease-like - for high-load under the lubrication of machine parts can also be used in low temperature areas


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## saltytri (Mar 20, 2011)

Buy some Linde A or Linde B from here:

http://www.myrockhound.com/toolssupplies/polishes.html

Mix it into epoxy to a thick consistency similar to AA. For high priced custom lights, I usually use genuine AA just in case someone asks because buyers deserve to know they are getting the best. Even so, I've never had a bonding or thermal issue with my homebrewed Linde stuff and I've used it many, many times.


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## videoman (Mar 20, 2011)

http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/ca_electricallyresistant.htm

Thanks for the suggestions, i will study them but for now

I will give this one a try as it is available locally in NJ
Anyone tried similar ceramic adhesive ? pros/cons ?


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## Harold_B (Mar 20, 2011)

We've used these materials in applications where the component needs to be electrically isolated from the mount but required heat sinking like laser diodes: http://www.optosolutions.com/doc/Trabond2151.pdf

I'm sure a quick search will locate a source for you.


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## criminalhate (Mar 20, 2011)

videoman said:


> Is JB weld really electrically non-conductive ?


 

Yes it is, I've done a bunch of testing at work to confirm this. But I don't believe it's a very good conductor of heat.


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## mds82 (Mar 21, 2011)

how much are you looking for? Arctic silver sells their OEM solutions, which is A $50 MIN order, but they have ceramic and silver adhesive that has up to a 120 minute working time.


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## videoman (Mar 21, 2011)

I am looking for something in ounces instead of grams. Kind of a 3 to 4 oz. tube (like toothpaste size) for under $30 bucks. It must electrically non conductive and also be able to conduct heat well. It must get hard upon curing. This is mainly used to pot a led nickel size driver to an aluminum heatsink. Problem with them drivers is that underneath them have the circuits that CANNOT short out when potted down. I will use the AA for the leds though. I am mass producing units, so I would really need to save on this.


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## jeffosborne (Mar 21, 2011)

Hi videoman! Mass producing LED lights sounds interesting. Can we have a peek at the lights you are building?

Cheers,
Jeff


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## MikeAusC (Mar 22, 2011)

JBweld is an insulator . . . . UNLESS you're using it to mount magnets !!!!

I tested for good insulation between Nickel-plated magnets and alumium plate after setting them in place. After the JBweld had set I measured about 100 ohms !!!!!

I assume that before the JBweld had set, the metal particles in it had aligned themselves to form conducting whiskers !!!


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## jeffosborne (Mar 22, 2011)

I found a sounce for Harold B's suggestion of the Trabond epoxy, 40 grams for $22.76 sounds like a real bargain!
Order some this afternoon, I will:

http://krayden.distone.com/itDetail.asp?it=EC1188514

Jeff O.


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## videoman (Mar 22, 2011)

Hi Jeff. Units are in the prototyping stage at this moment. Only detail I can get out is that they will be the best on-camera video lights anywhere at any price . Hi lumen/lux, high CRI , 3 color temperature switch, solid aluminum frame, built like a tank, and of course very affordable compared to the junk that is out there. I will send you photos as soon as the evaluating and photometrics are done.


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## coors (Apr 18, 2011)

I too can confirm that JB-Weld is not good potting material. Destroyed the drivers of every light that I potted with it, in very short amount of time (hours). I don't know if it was specifically from insulating or conductivity.

I'm also interested in finding out more about these video lights that you're manufacturing, please.


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## videoman (Apr 18, 2011)

A little more about the lights you ask ? Perhaps a little off-topic, but so far here is what I have as prototype # 4
Using only 2 leds with a minimum lux rating at 3 ft. of 1700 lux
Max power from battery draw Less than 13W
Dimming function
Choice of Color temperature of 2800K-4000K-5200K ( approx.) at the flick of a switch
Even beam spread of 65 Deg H&V , no hot spots within that beam
DC in from 6 to 18 V

Prototype # 5
Same as above except that instead of temperature choices it will be neutral (3800K -4200K) with a choice ( flick of a switch) of spot 25 degree ( upwards of 8000 lux @ 3 ft.) or flood 65 degree ( 1700 lux @ 3ft.)
Sorry, no photos available until production model (s), photometrics, conformity standards, field evaluation is completed.

They will use the best components available
Thank you for your interest.


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## Potato42 (Apr 18, 2011)

Hey Videoman, any chance you go by Norman99 on a different forum?


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## videoman (Apr 18, 2011)

Norman and I are associates. We work together on many projects, we are seasoned photographers and videographers on the verge of retirement and keeping ourselves busy tinkering, experimenting and hopefully making things that are beneficial and affordable to amateur and pro videographers. We both felt the need for a really well made light source that many pros have been asking and waiting for. We felt that offerings from many brand name manufacturers fell short of producing a rugged, powerful and affordable unit. Who better than a videographer to build a light for videographers? We talked to many in the business and listened very carefully to what most desired features were to be implemented to realize a working prototype. We started from scratch about 2 years ago and have done changes as dictated by surveys done. It would not have been possible without CPF and all the help received by members that answered many questions and suggestions offered. The units are near completion as we were eagerly waiting for suppliers to obtain the latest led and components to be readily available. Patience is a virtue.


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## Potato42 (Apr 19, 2011)

I see. I'm curious about this light as well after hearing about it on another forum. I had a few messages with Norman about it there. I have been tempted to make my own light after being underwhelmed with the current popular LED lights intended for photography and video use. The only one I have seen so far that looks promising is the Arri L7, but for the cost it just seems ridiculous unless purchased by a studio using it day in and day out (for energy savings). I look forward to something similarly useful for a figure my wallet might be able to recover from.


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## videoman (Apr 19, 2011)

The L7 is really used for studio lighting under controlled situations.I is a horse of a different color. My units are used for the run and gun type situations that warrants the use of an on-camera light. I totally agree, the Arri is an expensive unit but if one has to make a film with a budget in the 7 figures, well then it is a cheap light (pricewise). Everything is relevant to purpose and affordability. I'm sure they will be up for rental by some rental AV houses.


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## doctaq (Apr 19, 2011)

how bad was the fujik from dx? it seems to be the stuff of choice for just about every cheap flashlight


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## videoman (Apr 19, 2011)

My experience with DX's Fujix was that I expected something that upon curing was going to be a great medium for heat transfer. That was not the case. I potted a driver with AA and an identical driver with Fujix both running the same leds (XP-G's. 2 in parallel with each 1.2A going through) The AA driver would not experience any thermal shutdown, but the Fujix potted one shut down in LESS than 3 minutes and had to wait for cooldown to restart. I repeated the potting several times and the same results. There was about 1mm thick of potting between the driver and the heatsink as the driver has contacts at the bottom that I did not want to get shorted out. In any case the potting was the same thickness in the AA and the Fujix drivers. The Fujix does not get rock hard upon curing and can be felt soft with the fingernail. It breaks off easily in pieces like hard chalk. It may be excellent as an insulator but I would never use it as a substitute for AA.


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## SemiMan (Apr 20, 2011)

Is the board based on through hole or SMT technology, i.e. does it have leads coming out the back or is it flat. If flat, I would suggest just using conductive heat sink tape from the likes of Bergquist. They can handle a little bit of deviation from flatness depending on which one you are using.

Do you know what the efficiency is of your driver, i.e. how much heat you need to dissipate?

Semiman


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## videoman (Apr 20, 2011)

I use several different drivers depending on the leds and configurations. The drivers are round 2.8A constant current with + and - soldered on the bottom or soldered at the top. The one that is soldered on the top can sit directly on the heatsink without any circuit contact problems. The other one has to have a rather thick amount of AA so to not short out.It appears that 99% of the drivers (2.8A constant current) are all designed for flashlight use as they have the round shape. I am really having a hard time finding a driver, perhaps non-existant, that is either square or rectangle not more than an inch wide and 1.5 inch long, that has input voltage from 6-18 VDC and provision to easily add a dimmer pot. Taskled had a few models but the max out was around 1A. I would think that by now with the higher current capability of leds that someone would produce a driver(s) that are not necessarily round but can be used for such applications as lanterns, emergency lights, video lights, studio illumination. Any thing that has to be run off DC voltage where AC is not feasable/available.
It seems that all the interest is in flashlights and most DC drivers are designed around them.Most I have seen are multi mode drivers that are useless in my application and have no dimming capability.


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## degarb (Feb 26, 2014)

I am considering using a 5 gallon bucket to catch the shavings resulting from grinding away an old aluminum flashlight with my grinder, some gloves, and eye protection. This may work better than my iron oxide (rust) harvesting scheme.

Or would zinc dust work? Aluminum oxide is not as good as aluminum.


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## degarb (Feb 26, 2014)

saltytri said:


> Buy some Linde A or Linde B from here:
> 
> http://www.myrockhound.com/toolssupplies/polishes.html
> 
> Mix it into epoxy to a thick consistency similar to AA. I've never had a bonding or thermal issue with my homebrewed Linde stuff and I've used it many, many times.




Which compound do you recommend?


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## degarb (Feb 27, 2014)

degarb said:


> I am considering using a 5 gallon bucket to catch the shavings resulting from grinding away an old aluminum flashlight with my grinder, some gloves, and eye protection. This may work better than my iron oxide (rust) harvesting scheme.
> 
> Or would zinc dust work? Aluminum oxide is not as good as aluminum.




I just scraped off the aluminum oxide off a sheet of 120 grit sandpaper. Thinking about it, they rip you on sandpaper, so this is not the way to go.

However, I was thinking NaCL, table salt! It would be cheap. Sodium has a conductance of 85 http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html and NaCl of 35 according to http://www.almazoptics.com/NaCl.htm Where they list Aluminum oxide as only 30.


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