# SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)



## DM51

*SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)*

*[Continued from Part 1...]*
 
At long last, I have managed to get around to doing a series of shots of some of the various possible M6 rechargeable options. I have been planning to do this for a while, but something always seemed to get in the way.

Just getting all the gear together took some time.















*Bulb options*

The bulbs/LAs can be split into 2 groups: those that work with two Li-Ion cells in series (2s) and those that work with three Li-Ion cells in series (3s).

2s Li-Ions:
· MN15 
· MN16 
· MN20 
· MN21 
· Osram 64250 
· WA 1111 
· Philips 5761 

3s Li-Ions:
· MN61 
· HO-M6R 
· WA 1185 

The MNxx bulbs:












The 64250, 1111, 1185 and 5761 bulbs require a Fivemega MN bi-pin socket for the M6.
3 bi-pin bulbs in FM holders are shown here, together with the Lumens Factory HO-M6R:







Below is a closer look at the bi-pin bulbs. The physical size of the glass envelope is important, as it determines whether or not the bulbs will actually fit through the reflector hole in the KT4 turbohead. The WA bulbs are small and compact, whereas the Philips and Osram bulbs are much larger. My 5761 did fit OK, but the Osram 64250 *did not fit*, so it could not be tested (I tried 3 of them, but they were all the same). With 5761 bulbs, there have been reports of variations in bulb sizes between one batch and another, so some may fit and some may not. The same may be true for 64250s.






Those filaments are interesting too. If you compare the WA1111 and WA1185, you can immediately tell which is the higher-voltage 1185 – the filament coil is longer. The 64250 and 1111 filaments are almost exactly the same size and configuration, indicating very similar performance. The 5761 filament is a larger-diameter coil of thicker-gauge wire, and you can tell just by looking at it that it is going to absorb a lot more current than the others.


*Battery options*

The stock battery configuration for the M6 is 3s2p (3 series, 2 parallel) CR123A primary cells in the MB20 holder.
Rechargeable battery options available are as follows:

2s Li-Ion cell packs:
· 2s 18650 (mdocod’s 2x18650 holder)
· 2s2p 14670 (Fivemega black (7.4V) 4x14670 holder + plastic insulator cap needed)
· 2s ‘C’ Li-Ions (with Fivemega 2C extender)

2s2p 14670 and 2s 18650 should in theory perform identically, having the same capacity, although the 2s 18650 will be a cheaper and better option. 2s ‘C’ gives increased capacity. However there is the disadvantage of the 2C extender lengthening the light by ~17 mm. The 5761 (and the MN21 Li-Ion option) should be used only with 2x ‘C’, as the current draw at ~5A is too much for 2s 18650 except in short bursts. 

However, the increased discharge loads possible with Lithium Manganese (Emoli) cells, available in 18650 size, present a workable solution for M6 owners who want to use the 5761 and are not worried about short run-times.

3s Li-Ion cell packs: 
· 3s2p RCR123 (in the SF stock MB20 holder)
· 3s 17670 (Fivemega 3x17670 holder)

The 3s 17670 set-up will out-perform the 3s2p RCR123s. 

Here are the battery packs:







Please note in the above pic: there is a home-made plastic cap (made by me) that fits over the +ve end of the 4x14670 holder. This is needed to prevent the +ve terminal shorting on the M6 body. It can be seen that the 3x17670 holder already has an insulating disc fitted.

The Fivemega 2C extender comes with a plastic sleeve to take the 2x ‘C’ Li-Ion cells, pictured above. Here is a photo of an M6 body fitted with the Fivemega 2C extender, next to a stock M6 body:








One problem with comparison shots is trying to make sure the lights are all pointing at exactly the same spot in each successive photo. I decided I needed a solid cradle, similar in concept to a shooter’s bench-rest, to hold the lights. 

Mrs DM51 very kindly made an involuntary donation of a redundant chopping board for this purpose. When I realised the tremendous scientific (non-culinary) potential of this chopping board, I pointed out to her at some length that it had lethally unhygienic cracks in it, suggesting that from now on she should instead use one of her other boards, as they looked very much less conducive to salmonella, botulism, or other alarming and gruesome gastro-intestinal afflictions. Anyway, she has not said anything so far about the board going missing, and with a bit of luck she won’t notice. 

I glued a 45° wedge to it, and a right-angle join from a box to that, to act as a channel to lay the lights in. This is the result:







Anchored firmly in place, it ensures each light points at the same spot.


*Location*

Adamlau did an excellent series of shots in an urban setting, so I chose a rural one.








The target here is the large* integrating tree* on the right in the main photo. As marked on the photo, it is 135 yards (400 feet) from the “firing point”. That is a good distance away, and it takes a powerful light to throw that far to any useful effect.








*BEAMSHOTS*

First, here are pics of the MNxx bulbs that were tested. These are small versions of the photos, for ease of comparison side by side. Larger copies (600 x 460 pixels) can be found in post #2 – they may be useful for making “gif” rotating shots.

On the left in each case the bulb is running on primaries, and on the right you see the same bulb running on Li-Ions.

MN15









MN20









MN16









MN61









MN21










In each case above, the primaries were 3s2p in the stock MB20 holder, with the exception of the MN61, which was running on 4s in a 2x18650-size Leef body. The rechargeable configurations were as shown.

Note that the MN16 seems brighter than the MN61 – this should not be the case. It is mostly because the MN16 is designed to run of 3 primaries, not 3s2p. With 2 banks of CR123As, there is far less voltage sag, so the MN16 is being overdriven. I also have to confess that the 4 cells used for the shot of the MN61 may not have been quite as fresh as the ones in the M6 bodies. That MN61 on primaries is the 1 shot in this series which is possibly suspect. All I can say is that it looked pretty bright; but the MN16 was brighter. See how the MN61 performed on Li-Ions, though!

Now it gets more interesting, as we add in some other bulbs. Time to settle a few scores!
Here are a few pairs that make interesting comparisons: 

HO-M6R vs. MN20 (primaries) 










HO-M6R vs. MN16 (2x 18650) 










HO-M6R vs. MN21 (primaries) 










MN21 (primaries) vs. WA 1111










MN21 (primaries) vs. MN61 (3x Li-Ions)










MN21 (2x ‘C’ Li-Ions) vs. 5761 (2x ‘C’ Li-Ions)










WA 1111 vs. WA 1185










5761 vs. WA 1185










Before finishing with the beamshots, I would stress again that the target is a very large tree, about 80 feet high, and it is a fair distance away – 135 yards, or 400 feet! All the photos above are with the camera on ~2x zoom. Just to illustrate this, here is what the WA 1185 beam actually looked like without the zoom:








*Comments*

You may already have formed your own conclusions from the photos above. Below are some of my thoughts. 

The first thing that must be realised is that the high-output (HOLA) Surefire MN-series bulbs used with Li-Ion batteries will suffer a reduced life. 

As you can see from the comparison shots above of the MN16, MN61 and MN21, they are much brighter when running on Li-Ions than they are on primaries. 

This is nice, but unfortunately it comes at a cost, which is a shorter bulb life. The greater the increase in brightness, the more drastic the effect on bulb life. The MN15 and MN20 will probably do OK as they aren’t driven so hard, but those 3 HOLAs are not going to last very long at all. The cost of running your M6R on Li-Ions with Surefire HOLAs at around $30 a pop may end up being as expensive as feeding it with primaries. Sorry guys, but there’s no way round that one. 

The lifetime of bi-pin bulbs is better documented. When over-driven, as here, these bulbs will have a lifespan in the region of ~10 hours, but they are a lot cheaper - $9 for a WA1111, and only $5 for a WA1185. And a mere $3 for a 64250 - if you can find one that fits!

Star ratings given below for practicality are awarded for various reasons, the principal one being anticipated bulb life. 


*Bulb performance and ratings*

The *MN15* confirmed its value and utility. It draws an economical 1.15 amps. I have been using it quite a lot, but until now I had not done a comparison at distance, and it is at distance that quality shows up. You only have to look at the photos above to see how well it performed. As can be seen here, and contrary to reports made elsewhere, it works well on 2x Li-Ions. Either way, with primaries or rechargeables, the MN15 is a very good option for anyone requiring a working light with long run-time. It only gets 1 star here for output, but that tree is a long way off, and the standard in this shootout is very high indeed. There can be no doubt that this is an extremely useful bulb.
Output………….. ð
Run-time……….. ððððð
Practicality……. ðððð
Overall…………... 


The *MN20* is a fine all-round bulb, drawing 2.45 amps. It is a good general purpose bulb for the M6 for both primaries and Li-Ions. With this bulb, you have enough light for almost all uses.
Output………….. ðð
Run-time…….…. ðððð
Practicality……. ððð
Overall…………... 


The *MN16* gives a startlingly better performance than the MN20, beating it on output. It draws 2.6 amps, so it can be expected to be brighter, and it is. However, it is clearly over-driven on 2x Li-Ions, and its life will suffer severely.
Output………….. ððð
Run-time……….. ðððð
Practicality……. ðð
Overall…………... 


The *MN21* is an amazing bulb, but unless you have an endless supply of CR123A primaries, it really isn’t very practical. It draws 4.9 amps. People probably fire it up from time to time to amaze their friends, but even for that purpose there are more impressive options. Using it with the FM extension and 2x ‘C’ Li-Ions was spectacular. However this is over-driving it hard, and bulb life is likely to be very short. From cold, I found it required double or triple-clicking to start it. For all these reasons I do not consider it a practical option. 
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ðð
Practicality……. ð
Overall…………... :green:


The *Philips* *5761*, like the MN21, is a high-current bulb, drawing 5.4 amps. It needs the FM 2C extension, as it should not be used with smaller Li-Ion cells than ‘C’ size. There are reports of some batches of 5761s being too large to fit through the KT4 reflector hole; certainly, it is a close fit. The filament sits up higher than the WA lamps, so ~1mm of shims are required on the base of the bi-pin holder. As if all that wasn’t enough, it needs several clicks to start. Unless you intend to use LiMn (Emoli) cells in a 2x18650 holder and you don’t mind extremely short run-times, it is not worth considering this bulb for the M6 (in my opinion, anyway).
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ðð
Practicality……. ð
Overall…………... :sick2:


The *MN61* is dazzling. On 3x Li-Ions it outperforms the MN21 on primaries. However, it is seriously over-driven in this configuration (3 amps measured) and there have been several reports of it instaflashing. Even where this does not happen, bulb life is going to be short and consequently expensive. Sadly, it does not seem to be a very realistic or reliable option. On output it is really 4½ stars, above 4 but not up to 5.
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ððð
Practicality……. ð
Overall…………... 


The *WA 1111* is a *great* bulb. With 2x Li-Ions I measured it drawing 3.6 amps. Its output is very similar to the MN21 on primaries, as I have shown in another thread, and it uses less (and free) power. It is a very good option indeed, with useful run-time on 2x18650. It is no surprise how good this is. It is a very fine combination for the M6. 
Output………….. ðððð
Run-time….……. ðððð
Practicality……. ðððð
Overall…………... :devil:


Some people are lucky enough to have an *Osram 64250* that will fit into a KT4; however mine did not. I would expect it to perform almost identically to the WA 1111 (cheaper, too – it is $3 instead of $9). If you are really skilled at grinding glass down with a dremel, you might be able to shave the sides of these bulbs down just enough to fit, and then you will be in business!


The *Lumens Factory* *HO-M6R* was the best surprise of this shootout. It draws 2.1 amps from 3x Li-Ions – that is Lumens Factory’s own figure, and it proved accurate on measurement. This means it can be used safely with 3s2p RCR123 Li-Ions in the stock MB20 holder; however it will perform better with 3x17670s. The HO-M6R has always been described as being “somewhere between the MN20 and MN21 in output”. Well, we can now officially scratch that description as inadequate. It *stomped* the MN20, and it gave the MN21 a very good run for its money. It was a far closer thing than I thought it would be. It has a tighter beam, and I think it actually out-throws the MN21. Throw is a feature of Lumens Factory bulbs, and this is a *superb* thrower. I knew it was good, but it took this comparison to show just how good it really is. 
Output………….. ððð
Run-time……….. ðððð
Practicality……. ððððð
Overall…………... 


Finally, as expected, and as can be seen from the photos, the *WA 1185* with 3x17670 was the winner in the power contest. Drawing 3.3 amps, it matches the 5761 for output, and is a much more practical alternative if sheer power is what you want.
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ðð
Practicality……. ðððð
Overall…………... :devil:


I hope this thread is some help to those deciding what to run in their own M6.


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## DM51

This is the new Part 2. The original post (above) is copied from Part 1, and is now showing its age, as there have been quite a few new developments and products announced that are not covered there.

They've been mentioned in other posts in Part 1, so at some stage when I have time, I'll edit this post to summarise them.


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## DFLO281

This IS the Bible of M6.


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## Bimmerboy

The first thread was great, but now there's even more stuff, which can only make it better!

LOL @ "integrating tree". Wish I had a good one... they're all too close, and give false readings!

Most any place around here where you can get some good distance, will also probably result in the police getting called. :sigh: This is especially since the two _best_ locations are behind my old high school, and the other, right next to a police station!... lol. Guess they wouldn't even need to be called in that circumstance.


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## Nanomiser

I just ordered an IMR-M6 1000 lumen bulb and three AW 17670 cells, but I am being told that I need to use AW IMR cells only to run this bulb. Being that AW doesn’t offer an IMR version of the 17670 I went with what’s available. 

What is the difference between an IMR AW cell and a regular AW cell? 

Will it really make a difference on the maximum possible output of the M6 1000 bulb?

Would the performance of my HO-M6R using a 3S AW17670 configuration be the same as using a 3s2p AWRCR123A in my stock MB20 holder?

What are the main drivers for using a 3s2p setup?


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## bigchelis

IMR cells can handle up to 4.5amps. The AW cells can handle less current. I had MrGman test my Surefire M6 with 3 AW 17670 cells that were almost fully charged and it did 850ish out the front lumens. I will ask MrGman to test it again with topped off cells, but my guess is that if the battery can't handle the high current effectively the voltage will sag and my numbers will remain low. I was expecting around 1000 lumens out the front.

I will update when he re-tests it for me.

Thanks,
Jose



Nanomiser said:


> I just ordered an IMR-M6 1000 lumen bulb and three AW 17670 cells, but I am being told that I need to use AW IMR cells only to run this bulb. Being that AW doesn’t offer an IMR version of the 17670 I went with what’s available.
> 
> What is the difference between an IMR AW cell and a regular AW cell?
> 
> Will it really make a difference on the maximum possible output of the M6 1000 bulb?
> 
> Would the performance of my HO-M6R using a 3S AW17670 configuration be the same as using a 3s2p AWRCR123A in my stock MB20 holder?
> 
> What are the main drivers for using a 3s2p setup?


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## 325addict

remember, that with incans, only a small voltage drop is required to have a big drop in output. LEDs are less sensitive for this.

With only 5%(!) drop in voltage, you'll have a drop in output of about 18%
With a 10% drop in voltage, you'll suffer a drop in output of more than 30%!!

I have a booklet from the Swiss switch-manufacturer EAO on incan bulbs, LEDs, multi-LEDs and so on, in which a marvelous graph is printed.


Timmo.


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## Snow

This thread is responsible for me moving the M6 from the "someday" category of lights I wanted to the "I need one NOW" category. One SureFire M6, FM bipin adapter, 3x17670 holder, and 1185 later, and I am very happy. lovecpf


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## Nanomiser

I hear ya Snow, I hear ya. 

Now I'm in the wait for your parts to come in holding pattern.


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## jslappa

Snow said:


> This thread is responsible for me moving the M6 from the "someday" category of lights I wanted to the "I need one NOW" category. One SureFire M6, FM bipin adapter, 3x17670 holder, and 1185 later, and I am very happy. lovecpf



That is a very nice and potent setup. Now all you need is AW's softstart switch to give you 3 levels of brightness. The M6 has certainly become one of the most versatile lights around. 

The use of rechargeables has certainly breathed new life back into this platform.


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## Tim W

*Runtime question*



jslappa said:


> That is a very nice and potent setup. Now all you need is AW's softstart switch to give you 3 levels of brightness. The M6 has certainly become one of the most versatile lights around.
> 
> The use of rechargeables has certainly breathed new life back into this platform.



That is the setup I'm using, also.

What sort of runtimes should we see with the lower levels this switch offers.

I did run it for about 35 minutes last night on low, but forgot to check the voltages before I put the batteries on the charger.

Thanks,
Tim


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## Tim W

a (semi)related question to my above post:

Are there any low-cost bi-pin bulbs that will work with this set up to approximate JS's X-LOLA?

Thanks,
Tim


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## BSBG

Tim W said:


> a (semi)related question to my above post:
> 
> Are there any low-cost bi-pin bulbs that will work with this set up to approximate JS's X-LOLA?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tim



The Carley CL-809 is a little brighter than the MN15 on primaries (300ish lumens) but would probably work on 3x17670.


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## bigchelis

FYI: MrGman tested for me my Surefire M6 with MN Socket kit and WA1185. Using topped off 3 AW 17670 cells in FM holder.


Turn-on was 1050 plus Lumens. It dropped to 850ish after 3 minutes.

EDIT: Results are published in MrGmans Lumens sticky in the LED section.

Jose


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## maxspeeds

This is a *legendary thread!* Hopefully we can see how the IMR M6 bulb compares  and maybe even the EO M3T


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## cenz

maxspeeds said:


> This is a *legendary thread!* Hopefully we can see how the IMR M6 bulb compares  and maybe even the EO M3T



I think IMR-M3T vs EO-M3T vs MN21 with IMRs is more attractive to me.

away I think IMR-M3T is similar to N62, high current, mid. voltage design.


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## FredericoFreire

You're right Maxspeeds!


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## greenLED

Thanks to DM51's thread, my M6 sees a lot of use these days.

A 2x18650 + WA1111 setup is bright and useful enough for me.


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## Illum

greenLED said:


> Thanks to DM51's thread, my M6 sees a lot of use these days.
> 
> A 2x18650 + WA1111 setup is bright and useful enough for me.



thats Mdocod's holder yes?
I'm thinking of stepping down from burning 1185 in the M6 to a 1111 because its become a hassle to recharge 3 17670s with a two bay charger :shakehead  

I'm scratching my head in terms of a suitable 18650 charger and the thought of introducing yet another battery type in my collection.


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## DM51

The WA 1111 with 2x18650 in mdocod's holder is a very good combination. You get more run-time, and it's easier on the cells. The only downside is the WA 1111 is $9, vs. the WA 1185 at $5.

I don't know what charger you are using for your 17670s, but the 18650s will be fine in that. The charge time will just be a little longer.


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## Illum

DM51 said:


> The WA 1111 with 2x18650 in mdocod's holder is a very good combination. You get more run-time, and it's easier on the cells. The only downside is the WA 1111 is $9, vs. the WA 1185 at $5.
> 
> I don't know what charger you are using for your 17670s, but the 18650s will be fine in that. The charge time will just be a little longer.



I'm using the DSD charger from Lighthound. While it states "18650" as part of their compatibility its quite a snug fit both linearly and horizontally for 2x17670s...I'm not sure how a 2x18560 could possibly fit.

WA1111 draws 3.6 amps...my goodness, it makes me wonder why Surefire designed the MN21 to draw 5 amps...:candle:
the comparison looks good:wave:


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## DM51

Illum said:


> I'm using the DSD charger from Lighthound.


It's time for you to upgrade to a Pila IBC!


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## Illum

DM51 said:


> It's time for you to upgrade to a Pila IBC!



yep..I just read hitthespot's review and now is looking around for one for a little less than $50

MOs don't arrive from sales, I have no money

I wonder...for this particular beamshot, did you use Pila or AW 18650s? 
I figured I'd just order pila cells along with the charger and be done with it


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## jslappa

Illum,

Now that AW is offering the new 2600mAh 18650's, you'll get an added 400mAh over the Pila's. I just ordered the Pila IBC for $45. I have a bunch of unprotected 18650's that I haven't had the cajones to use yet. Now I'll feel safe using them with the Pila charger.


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## brammalay

I'm looking to get IMR-M6 setup with 3x17670, do you think it is safe to leave the light on for a long period possibly run it down from full to the cut off? Also what will the runtime like on that setup? I have afew ultrafire 17670 that I have been using for a while. I think they are not bad for price and reliability.
Any help will be excellent  good on ya CPF greeting from Aussie :twothumbs


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## DM51

Lumens Factory warn not to use the IMR series of LAs with ordinary LiCo (Li-Ion) cells, and you do it at your own risk. 

It's not a very good idea to run cells right down to the low-voltage cut-off, but if you do that you might get ~25 mins run-time. Don't expect the full 1,000 lumens out of the LA with those cells, though.


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## Illum

DM51 said:


> Lumens Factory warn not to use the IMR series of LAs with ordinary LiCo (Li-Ion) cells, and you do it at your own risk.
> 
> It's not a very good idea to run cells right down to the low-voltage cut-off, but if you do that you might get ~25 mins run-time. Don't expect the full 1,000 lumens out of the LA with those cells, though.



IMR-M6 using (3 x IMR RCR123A): ~9 min
9 min = 0.15 hours, IMR-RCR123A = 550mah
550/.15 = 3666.66ma or about 3.7 amps, for an ordinary 17670 that would be 3700/1600 = 2.3C...so its around the same current draw as an 1185 and just about the same runtime.

but 2.3C is simply brutal on the cells


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## Patriot

I believe the IMR-M6 bulb was quoted as drawing 3.0A whereas the 1185 draws 3.2A+

Regular protected LiCo cells will be fine if the LF bulb draw can be verified. I just wouldn't use those ultrafire cells though. Either use IMR cells or use a quality AW protected LiCo cell.


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## DM51

Yes, 3.0A is the figure given by Mark of LF in post #1 here.


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## LuxLuthor

I love your useful rankings in all the pertinent categories, and the overall summary icons. This is the thread that had me finally get into a light that held no justifiable interest beforehand.

By the way, I think I see The Virgin Mary in one of those Integrating Tree shots.  ðððððð :wave:


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## Illum

DM51 said:


> Yes, 3.0A is the figure given by Mark of LF in post #1 here.



well...I had to get that calculation out...I guess I was way off :shakehead


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## OscarTheDog

DM51 Thanks For this thread its outstanding. It helps a FNG like myself figure out what to do with my M6 so many options :thumbsup:

OTD


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## junmae

does anyone know if I could use this battery charging system? 

*[eBay link removed - DM51]*

I was just wondering, how long does the 1185 bulb last with the 17670 batteries?


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## DM51

junmae said:


> does anyone know if I could use this battery charging system?
> 
> *[eBay link removed - DM51]*
> 
> I was just wondering, how long does the 1185 bulb last with the 17670 batteries?


1. The charger you linked is available more cheaply from AW and other sources. 
2. Buying batteries on eBay is very unwise.
3. Runtime of a WA1185 with 3x17670s has been posted in this thread and elsewhere.


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## Steve L

Hi DM51,:wave:

I wanted to personally Thank You for creating such a Valuable and Informative thread . My wallet's not thanking you, but I sure am. I never really wanted a M6 until I found this thread (I'm a rechargeable kind of guy), I now have 2 and counting.:thanks:

Best Wishes,
Steve


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## junmae

is it safe/worth to do this? I heard the warranty doesn't cover you anymore once you mod your light. I really want to do it but I'm not sure if its worth losing lifetime warranty :/


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## fivemega

junmae said:


> is it safe/worth to do this? I heard the warranty doesn't cover you anymore once you mod your light. I really want to do it but I'm not sure if its worth losing lifetime warranty :/



*In long term you will have to spend more for primary cells and genuine bulbs than value of warranty.*


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## junmae

need to save money for another m6 to mod XD. I kinda wanna keep my first m6 cherry especially since it is the style I prefer more (the light cren. bezel) Modding seems like lotta fun too  thanks for the quick replies!


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## lebox97

ummm keeping your M6 cherry won't save you money... 
it'll cost you 6 primary 123 cells for every 15 +/- minutes of use (using HOLA MN21)... 

this is why many of us have gone the re-chargeable route for "guilt free" and less expensive use. 
longer run times and brighter output is just a by-product of saving money :devil:




junmae said:


> need to save money for another m6 to mod XD. I kinda wanna keep my first m6 cherry especially since it is the style I prefer more (the light cren. bezel) Modding seems like lotta fun too  thanks for the quick replies!


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## Patriot

junmae said:


> is it safe/worth to do this? I heard the warranty doesn't cover you anymore once you mod your light. I really want to do it but I'm not sure if its worth losing lifetime warranty :/



The mods discussed in this thread are all reversible. In the most straight forward examples you're exchanging the bulb and battery pack...easy to switch back in 30 seconds. In no way does this devalue your M6.


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## FAAbUlights

Does anybody have some output numbers for the Lumens Factory IMR M6 bulb driven by 6 X IMR16340's?


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## Outdoors Fanatic

FAAbUlights said:


> Does anybody have some output numbers for the Lumens Factory IMR M6 bulb driven by 6 X IMR16340's?


That should be a great setup for the M4 Devastator. Short runtime for sure, but incredible..


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## AvroArrow

Steve L said:


> Hi DM51,:wave:
> 
> I wanted to personally Thank You for creating such a Valuable and Informative thread . My wallet's not thanking you, but I sure am. I never really wanted a M6 until I found this thread (I'm a rechargeable kind of guy), I now have 2 and counting.:thanks:
> 
> Best Wishes,
> Steve



+1 to what Steve L said.

I started with a used stock M6 (that's missing the lanyard ring) with a single used MN20 (the guy lost/misplaced his MN21). Now I have 6x AW17670s, 1x AW M6 soft-start switch, 2x FM 3x17670 holders, 1x LF HO-M6R, and I just got my 2x FM bi-pin to MN bulb adapters today. Oh yeah, and a Pila IBC charger thanks to kitelights group buy about half a year ago. I think I should have bought 2 Pila IBCs now. As Illum mentioned, it sucks charging 3 cells with a 2-bay charger. Good thing I had a spare WA1185 from my Mag85 build. To get the rechargeable power of the Mag85 build in such a small package (relatively speaking) is awesome. I also don't have to worry about insta-flashing the bulbs since I've got the soft-start. And a 3-level 1185 light is really cool.

Man.... I've probably spent as much if not more on the aftermarket mods than I did on the M6 itself. Actually, correction, I _have_ spent more on the mods than the light itself. But it's been really fun.  All I'm missing now is Mdocod's 2x18650 adapter, a couple AW18650s, and some WA1111 bulbs.  And maybe a 2nd M6 to use all the duplicate FM parts I bought.  I also had a M4 but sold it because I didn't like the feel/balance of the light and most of all, it had nowhere near the staggering amount of aftermarket mods that the M6 has.

So, :thanks: DM51 for the great info in this thread. BTW, my wallet hates and utterly despises you. :laughing:


----------



## Patriot

> Originally Posted by *FAAbUlights*
> 
> 
> _Does anybody have some output numbers for the Lumens Factory IMR M6 bulb driven by 6 X IMR16340's?_






Outdoors Fanatic said:


> That should be a great setup for the M4 Devastator. Short runtime for sure, but incredible..




Seems like the voltage would be too low with 2 cells and too high for with 4 cells. Is there some combination which would allow the use of this bulb in the M4? :thinking:


----------



## fivemega

Patriot said:


> Seems like the voltage would be too low with 2 cells and too high for with 4 cells. Is there some combination which would allow the use of this bulb in the M4? :thinking:



*3x17670 using 68mm extension unless you have bored out M4 body to take 3x18650

Another choice is 3 IMR 16340 plus a dummy but run time will be very short.

WA1111 produce reasonable light powered by 2x17670 without any extension.

Philips 5761 will work with 2 IMR 18650 with soft start but still too touchy. *


----------



## DM51

FAAbUlights said:


> Does anybody have some output numbers for the Lumens Factory IMR M6 bulb driven by 6 X IMR16340's?


The IMR-M6 specs given by LF are 10.8V, 3A, 25 hours life, 3350K. The IMR16340 cell is 550mAh, so you'll get ~10 mins runtime. 

10 mins is not great, so your next step would probably be to consider a 3x18500 or 3x18650 body to replace the M4 body for longer run-time, but then you’ll decide the Fivemega Megalennium body is really much nicer looking and more practical for 3x18650, so you’ll get one of those… and then you’ll see a photo of a Fivemega FM3X head for it, which you’ll decide is an absolutely-must-have item…

… and after a little while, and a lot of $$, you’ll hate me just as much as AvroArrow’s wallet does! LOL!!


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

DM51 said:


> The IMR-M6 specs given by LF are 10.8V, 3A, 25 hours life, 3350K. The IMR16340 cell is 550mAh, so you'll get ~10 mins runtime.
> 
> 10 mins is not great, so your next step would probably be to consider a 3x18500 or 3x18650 body to replace the M4 body for longer run-time, but then you’ll decide the Fivemega Megalennium body is really much nicer looking and more practical for 3x18650, so you’ll get one of those… and then you’ll see a photo of a Fivemega FM3X head for it, which you’ll decide is an absolutely-must-have item…
> 
> … and after a little while, and a lot of $$, you’ll hate me just as much as AvroArrow’s wallet does! LOL!!


STOP!!!!!!!! LOL 

I'm too broke already...


----------



## Patriot

Forgive this off-topic question but I didn't want to open a new thread if someone has a quick answer.

Does anyone know the diameter of the M6 lens and is there a UCL equivalent? 

I can look up part two of that question myself if I know the size. Thanks for the help as I'm not at home to measure mine tonight. 

:thanks:


----------



## Illum

Patriot said:


> Forgive this off-topic question but I didn't want to open a new thread if someone has a quick answer.
> 
> Does anyone know the diameter of the M6 lens and is there a UCL equivalent?
> 
> I can look up part two of that question myself if I know the size. Thanks for the help as I'm not at home to measure mine tonight.
> 
> :thanks:



why UCL? Unless you plan on going LED UCL is more prone to cracking than the existing pyrex glass :thinking:


----------



## Patriot

Illum said:


> why UCL? Unless you plan on going LED UCL is more prone to cracking than the existing pyrex glass :thinking:


 
Yes sir, LED.


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

Nanomiser said:


> I just ordered an IMR-M6 1000 lumen bulb and three AW 17670 cells, but I am being told that I need to use AW IMR cells only to run this bulb. Being that AW doesn’t offer an IMR version of the 17670 I went with what’s available.
> 
> What is the difference between an IMR AW cell and a regular AW cell?
> 
> Will it really make a difference on the maximum possible output of the M6 1000 bulb?
> 
> Would the performance of my HO-M6R using a 3S AW17670 configuration be the same as using a 3s2p AWRCR123A in my stock MB20 holder?
> 
> What are the main drivers for using a 3s2p setup?


The IMR-M6 is only a 3A lamp assembly, so it's perfectly fine for the regular AW 17670 li-ion cells. You don't need IMRs.


----------



## Illum

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> The IMR-M6 is only a 3A lamp assembly, so it's perfectly fine for the regular AW 17670 li-ion cells. You don't need IMRs.



~2C is a bit brutal on 17670s...they'll come out the same way as using a 1185 with three 17670s


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

Illum said:


> ~2C is a bit brutal on 17670s...they'll come out the same way as using a 1185 with three 17670s


3A is well within the safe limits for an AW 17670 cell, it can handle up to 3.2+Amps (2C) with no problem.


----------



## Illum

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> 3A is well within the safe limits for an AW 17670 cell, it can handle up to 3.2+Amps (2C) with no problem.



yeah, safe...
I didn't feel safe back when I drew 3.3A from those 17670s in my M6-1185 setup. the cell hot really hot in just 20 minutes:green:


----------



## xcel730

With the option of so many LED flashlights out there, why on Earth would anyone still buy a Surefire M6? ...








I have to find out, so I ordered one myself :nana: lovecpf

I got a good deal on an M6 ($235) ... but after getting an AW forward clicky, FM Bi-pin socket, a few WA1185 and WA1111, LF HO-M6R, 2x18650 and 3x17670 battery holders, extra batteries, my wallet is about $400 lighter (at least $400 is when I stopped counting, I'm sure I spent more than that). Parts are come from all over, so I should have everything set up in a couple of weeks. I can't wait to test it out. I even have a spare Pelican case that's waiting for an M6. 

DM51, absolutely fantastic thread you started. Similar to many other members, you had me convinced that I need an M6.


----------



## Alberta-Blue

I owe you quite the belated thanks in relation to this thread. Before this thread I was humming an hawing about the options for my M6-R. I wanted a hot output, long throw, and a good runtime.

I ended up choosing the M6 with a Mdocod 17670 holder, AW 17670's, and an LF HO-M6R. It has become my long range search/spot light of choice. Excellent Combo.

I know that this has been said before... but this is those sacred tomb of M6 users...:twothumbs


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Alberta-Blue said:


> I ended up choosing the M6 with a Mdocod 17670 holder, AW 17670's, and an LF HO-M6R. It has become my long range search/spot light of choice. Excellent Combo.



IMO this is a great setup. I just got this setup with a true M6 (not a Mega w/ KT4 head which is what I've been running with most options) and I think the HO-M6R is the best "throwing" light I have. It may not be as bright as some other lamps out there (WA1185) which will light a larger area up close but it has great distance.


----------



## Snow

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> IMO this is a great setup. I just got this setup with a true M6 (not a Mega w/ KT4 head which is what I've been running with most options) and I think the HO-M6R is the best "throwing" light I have. It may not be as bright as some other lamps out there (WA1185) which will light a larger area up close but it has great distance.


 

Agreed. The HO-M6R is probably the best all around setup IMO and the one I use most often. I finally got a couple of MN21s and MN15s to try for more versatility, but I love the HO-M6R.


----------



## DM51

Welcome to CPF, flashforce.

Fivemega's MN bi-pin sockets are available here (4th run - the link you showed was to the 2nd run)

However, the bulb you show in that "petermercury" link will not fit the FM socket. 

Did you read the whole of post #1 of this thread? You'll need a WA 1111 or WA 1185 (or other G4 fitting bi-pin bulb), and then you'll also need the battery holders and cells appropriate for whichever bulb you choose.


----------



## andromeda.73

great thread, my compliments! :twothumbs


----------



## DM51

There's no "best", really - it's a matter of personal preference. Power (i.e. light output) is a direct trade-off with run-time. The more powerful (brighter) the bulb, the shorter the run-time will be before it needs recharging.


----------



## Yavox

What kind of setup would I need to have an output similar to WA1111, for at last 30 minutes, regulated? 

Is it possible with Megalennium body + FM3X head, or it would require something bigger, to hold more 18650s? Is there any driver available to keep the brightness at the constant level, just like my A2 does?


----------



## DM51

flashforce said:


> So then the most powerfull bulb + your great battery extention + cells
> 
> could you please list these and their price


WA 1185 is top for power. For that you need an FM or Odd Mods 3x17670 battery holder, and the FM MN bi-pin bulb holder. Not sure what the current prices are - check the links in post #1.



Yavox said:


> What kind of setup would I need to have an output similar to WA1111, for at last 30 minutes, regulated?
> 
> Is it possible with Megalennium body + FM3X head, or it would require something bigger, to hold more 18650s? Is there any driver available to keep the brightness at the constant level, just like my A2 does?


Consider the HO-M6R. The only extra you'll need for that is the FM / Odd Mods 3x17670 battery holder and cells. You won't need a Megalennium body or FM bi-pin bulb holder. It's a great combination:



post #1 said:


> The *Lumens Factory* *HO-M6R* was the best surprise of this shootout. It draws 2.1 amps from 3x Li-Ions – that is Lumens Factory’s own figure, and it proved accurate on measurement. This means it can be used safely with 3s2p RCR123 Li-Ions in the stock MB20 holder; however it will perform better with 3x17670s. The HO-M6R has always been described as being “somewhere between the MN20 and MN21 in output”. Well, we can now officially scratch that description as inadequate. It *stomped* the MN20, and it gave the MN21 a very good run for its money. It was a far closer thing than I thought it would be. It has a tighter beam, and I think it actually out-throws the MN21. Throw is a feature of Lumens Factory bulbs, and this is a *superb* thrower. I knew it was good, but it took this comparison to show just how good it really is.
> Output………….. ððð
> Run-time……….. ðððð
> Practicality……. ððððð
> Overall…………...


----------



## Illum

DM51 said:


> WA 1185 is top for power. For that you need an FM or Odd Mods 3x17670 battery holder, and the FM MN bi-pin bulb holder. Not sure what the current prices are - check the links in post #1.
> 
> Consider the HO-M6R. The only extra you'll need for that is the FM / Odd Mods 3x17670 battery holder and cells. You won't need a Megalennium body or FM bi-pin bulb holder. It's a great combination:



the HO-M6R has one additional advantage and disadvantage
the round envelope aligned on axis [as opposed to the filament focused on axis with the envelope slightly tilted with surefire lamps] means your beamshot is going to come out round, not the shape of a football.

The disadvantage...is that under 3x17670 about two hours or so of service, the envelope darkens so much that it reminded me of an MN20 on nearly dead cells:candle:


----------



## Steve in SoCal

Illum said:


> The disadvantage...is that under 3x17670 about two hours or so of service, the envelope darkens so much that it reminded me of an MN20 on nearly dead cells:candle:





I don't think that is characteristic of a good HO-M6R bulb. I have several hours of usage on mine and it looks fine.


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Illum said:


> The disadvantage...is that under 3x17670 about two hours or so of service, the envelope darkens so much that it reminded me of an MN20 on nearly dead cells:candle:



Funny that this is brought up. I just noticed that my HO-M6R is starting to get a bit dark on me. I have been running it with an AW SoftStart so I thought it may have been due to under-driving the light on low to often.


----------



## Illum

Steve in SoCal said:


> I don't think that is characteristic of a good HO-M6R bulb. I have several hours of usage on mine and it looks fine.



perhaps I should buy another lamp to try it out, my current one resembles...





I sold my 17670s already, so hes sitting there idling


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Well mine's not that dark yet - but same sort of darkening on the inside of the LA. I thought I had read on other threads that this type of darkening would usually happen becuase of an underdriven LA.

I am going to look for a good bi-wire that would allow me to go for a slightly less expensive LA. T1331 looks like a good possiblity and so does the 1166 potentially (although it looks like the 1166 would be slightly underdriven on 3 Li cells at 11.1V)


----------



## Yavox

Great. I asked incan newbie question, got HO-M6R as a solution, now people are complaining about it...


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Yavox said:


> Great. I asked incan newbie question, got HO-M6R as a solution, now people are complaining about it...


 
You've only got two people complaining about 2 light bulbs - hardly a wide test bed there. It's the first one I've noticed this happening to me on - I have had other that haven't gone black but they also possibly hadn't been run long enough to reach that point. Also - the bulb in question in my case was a used one I got with my M6 - so I don't know how much 'true' runtime it has on it.

And don't let one small issue get you down on the bulb - it's a great LA and I will continue to use it and probably get replacements. But I will also try the 1331 as well if I can get my hands on one.

I won't drive my 17670s using a 1185 as I feel that is too hard on the cells.


----------



## Illum

Yavox said:


> Great. I asked incan newbie question, got HO-M6R as a solution, now people are complaining about it...



I have yet to find a product that exists in this world without at least one person who jeered about it...including rubbers.
There are many people who are content with this lamp, it served me well for those couple hours and its performance has already paid itself off, I am merely showing you a possibility of what might become of your lamp should it be operated as long as mine has. 



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> Well mine's not that dark yet - but same sort of darkening on the inside of the LA. I thought I had read on other threads that this type of darkening would usually happen becuase of an underdriven LA.



Funny thing is, this was designed to be driven by 3x17670s...1185s aren't, and none of my 1185s have has any darkening issue. 



> I am going to look for a good bi-_*pin *_that would allow me to go for a slightly less expensive LA. T1331 looks like a good possiblity and so does the 1166 potentially (although it looks like the 1166 would be slightly underdriven on 3 Li cells at 11.1V)


1166 is rated for 11.6V, around 2 amps. there is no way your Li cells can sustain 11.1V under 2A without some moderately heavy voltage sag.


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Illum said:


> I have yet to find a product that exists in this world without at least one person who jeered about it...including rubbers.
> There are many people who are content with this lamp, it served me well for those couple hours and its performance has already paid itself off, I am merely showing you a possibility of what might become of your lamp should it be operated as long as mine has.


 
I hope this isn't a jab at me as being a complainer or jeering at the lamp?? I never talked down on the lamp and actually have had nothing but good things to say about it. 

BUT - if a lamp does darken then the lamp does darken. The proof is in the picture. Buyer beware under all circumstances. 

And another BUT - I have also ruined KT1 heads with exploding MN21 batteries being driven of 2xIMR16500 cells, had 1185s go poof on me, had multiple AW SoftStarts go bad on me in a Megalenniun becuase of the srpring beeing squeezed to hard by the AW 18650-2600 cells, and other sundry mishaps. No product is without its flaws - but the payback is great when they work.




Illum said:


> Funny thing is, this was designed to be driven by 3x17670s...1185s aren't, and none of my 1185s have has any darkening issue.


 
Thus my exact point about the light be underdriven, the 1185 is WAY overdriven. I read in a thread post here: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2330219&postcount=11 about underdriven lamps darkening.



Illum said:


> 1166 is rated for 11.6V, around 2 amps. there is no way your Li cells can sustain 11.1V under 2A without some moderately heavy voltage sag.


 
Ummmm.... thus my statement of the lamp being underdriven.


----------



## souledge

Isn't the MN21 with the 2 X C Li-Ion's the best for power with no regard to anything else?

I'm looking for the configuration with the highest power, with no regard to anything else.


----------



## DM51

souledge said:


> Isn't the MN21 with the 2 X C Li-Ion's the best for power with no regard to anything else?
> 
> I'm looking for the configuration with the highest power, with no regard to anything else.


Well, if you don't mind blowing $33 for every few seconds of runtime...


----------



## souledge

DM51 said:


> Well, if you don't mind blowing $33 for every few seconds of runtime...


 
Is it honestly that bad that you won't even get 5 minutes of runtime before the bulb pops?


----------



## souledge

Additionally, did you test the WA1185 on the 2 X C vs. the 3 x 17670? Do you have any other tests in mind with the new 18650? What would you estimate as the life of an MN21 using 3 x 18650?


----------



## DM51

souledge said:


> Is it honestly that bad that you won't even get 5 minutes of runtime before the bulb pops?


You might be lucky and get 5 mins, or maybe even longer. Or it might blow straight away. Honestly, it's not worth even trying it, IMO. 



souledge said:


> Additionally, did you test the WA1185 on the 2 X C vs. the 3 x 17670? Do you have any other tests in mind with the new 18650? What would you estimate as the life of an MN21 using 3 x 18650?


The WA1185 draws ~3.2A IIRC. This will cause voltage sag in Li-Ion cells. The sag will be less on 3xC vs. 3x17670, which is why the bulb will look brighter on the C-Li-Ions. Please note - 3x Li-Ions for the WA 1185, 2x for the WA 1111.


----------



## souledge

DM51 said:


> You might be lucky and get 5 mins, or maybe even longer. Or it might blow straight away. Honestly, it's not worth even trying it, IMO.
> 
> The WA1185 draws ~3.2A IIRC. This will cause voltage sag in Li-Ion cells. The sag will be less on 3xC vs. 3x17670, which is why the bulb will look brighter on the C-Li-Ions. Please note - 3x Li-Ions for the WA 1185, 2x for the WA 1111.


 
Thanks for the tips, I'm just a newbie trying to learn a bunch about this ever since I heard about the performance of a stock M6.

Right now, the recommended power configuration is WA 1185 with 3 x 18650? Or is there something even more powerful than that?


----------



## DM51

For maximum output, that is a good combination, but you would need a Megalennium body to use 3x18650. The stock M6 body will only take 3x17670.


----------



## souledge

DM51 said:


> For maximum output, that is a good combination, but you would need a Megalennium body to use 3x18650. The stock M6 body will only take 3x17670.



Sorry, one last question.

Is that the brightest possible configuration for a handheld flashlight, or is there a brighter one? i.e. Fivemega 5 x 26500 Mag body replacement with a WA 1185?


----------



## RichS

souledge said:


> Sorry, one last question.
> 
> Is that the brightest possible configuration for a handheld flashlight, or is there a brighter one? i.e. Fivemega 5 x 26500 Mag body replacement with a WA 1185?


 
Ummm, not even close. You need to check out Lux Luthor's Most Powerful Mag Mods Thread. The WA 1185 can deliver about 1300 lumens when driven well. So how does 400W, ~15,000 lumens in a handheld flashlight sound??


----------



## souledge

RichS said:


> Ummm, not even close. You need to check out Lux Luthor's Most Powerful Mag Mods Thread. The WA 1185 can deliver about 1300 lumens when driven well. So how does 400W, ~15,000 lumens in a handheld flashlight sound??


 
I noticed that thread about 10 minutes after I posted in this one. That thing is sick.....


----------



## Steve in SoCal

souledge said:


> Additionally, did you test the WA1185 on the 2 X C vs. the 3 x 17670? Do you have any other tests in mind with the new 18650? What would you estimate as the life of an MN21 using 3 x 18650?


 
The MN21 will go  on 3 x 18650. Please read the attached links to get a better feel for options in the M3/M4/M6 flashlights:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=161536

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/204862

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/219435

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3230826


----------



## Illum

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> I hope this isn't a jab at me as being a complainer or jeering at the lamp?? I never talked down on the lamp and actually have had nothing but good things to say about it.



no, its not directed against you in a negative sense, I simply wanted you to know its often not the most ideal to limit a product based on its reviews. 



> BUT - if a lamp does darken then the lamp does darken. The proof is in the picture. Buyer beware under all circumstances.


Well, unless I have say a batch of 10 lamps and all of them has exhibited the same symptom my argument is hardly qualified as evidence. It is simply an inference on a possible outcome.


----------



## 325addict

@ Yavox: I have two of these HO-M6R bulbs at the moment, none of them is even remotely black. Maybe there was a bad batch? If it happens to your bulb, give Mark from Lumens Factory a ring, and he'll arrange a solution. You can buy it with confidence, it is great, really!!

Another bulb that is great for the M6 if you need loooong runtimes: the WA1336! This one has been discontinued but is available on the internet if you're digging hard enough...

Specs are:

6V 0.64A 56Lm 525h


re-rated to 7.4V this will become:

7.4V 0.72A 116Lm 40h

It will run for three hours easily on two AW 18650-2600s 
On fresh 18650s I measured 0.74A current draw, so the 0.72A @ 7.4V may very well be accurate.

Light output is bright white and very useful. You can focus it to quite a small, bright hot spot due to the short filament. I used this setup today as a bike light, it is way brighter than my ordinary bike light 


Timmo.


----------



## [email protected]

Indeed, if you have 2 hours on the HO-M6R with 3x17670 then you probably should drop us a line. We offer no hassle service for all our products, has been like this from day one.

You can give us an email on [email protected] if you need anything, we are currently on holidays until the 17th. But I check the emails everyday.

Cheers,

Mark


----------



## Illum

[email protected] said:


> Indeed, if you have 2 hours on the HO-M6R with 3x17670 then you probably should drop us a line. We offer no hassle service for all our products, has been like this from day one.



Mark, I love your lamps. I went through EO-E1R, HO-E1R, EO-4, EO-E2R, and the HO-M6R, envelope fogging is a common event, but it never bothered me. the M6 did because I looked at the lamp's business end while off...so its fault on my part

There is NO issue with your products! 
Blackening is simply a matter of personal preference.
Whether broiled or blackened, good salmon is good salmon


----------



## 325addict

exactly the same here. I have several LF-lamps, none of them gives problems and/or is black. They are just extremely bright and white and they ALL throw like crazy 

But, back on topic: I always wondered why LF only had ONE lamp for the M6... but when you look better, this is not true 

The M3T shares the same head with the M6, so the HO-M3T and EO-M3T also fit 

I pulled the trigger on the HO-M3T. This one draws 2.0 Amps, and has been designed for 2X 3.7V rechargeable Li-ion cells... that's 2X 18650 in a Mdocod-holder 

I installed the lamp and two 18650s, turned it on and.... simply _amazing!_
According to DM51, Lumens Factory lamps are known for their throw, and this one is, _again_, no exception 

The combination of this extremely good throw and relatively moderate current draw make it to my favorite lamp on two cells at _once._
Seeing is believing. 

I think, I should buy another, just in case this one pops... I don't want to be without one 
(just the same with that high output lamp for the E1E on 3.7V... I bought a second as a spare. This lamp just breathes new life into that E1E, because finally it has guilt-free Lumens too!)

Timmo.


----------



## Illum

325addict said:


> But, back on topic: I always wondered why LF only had ONE lamp for the M6... but when you look better, this is not true




the other lamps were designed for the M3, therefore excluded from operation as an M6 option for this review, but yes its an astutute argument

With that in mind, David how about you do an add on with the new LF-IMR-M6 lamp?
the runtime of about 15min is going to look very very bad on the comparisons, but for LF to produce a lamp of this caliber there must be something inherently unique about it. 
I speculate that, at 3.7 amps it'll resemble the same profile as the WA1111 and might rival the WA1185


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

DM51 said:


> Well, if you don't mind blowing $33 for every few seconds of runtime...


Not to mention blowing a $120 KT Turbohead or a $195 Millennium Turbohead.


----------



## grayhighh

OMG!!! This thread is awesome .:bow:


----------



## run4jc

grayhighh said:


> OMG!!! This thread is awesome .:bow:



+1 - and it's pushing me towards an M6!!!


----------



## Solscud007

cmon, you know you want it. everyone else has one. You should too haha Peer pressure and drug dealer tactics!!!


----------



## IcantC

Anyone still able to find the HO-M6R anywhere?

Ps one of my all time fav threads!

Nothing beats the M6 incan IMHO.


----------



## phoenix1

*Is this the one we want now? *Seraph XM-L M Series Turbo Head. It has the new emitter and looks pretty good.


----------



## Patriot

DM, sort of off topic with regards to the shootout but having viewed your thread pictures again it kind of looks like you have at least two M6's with a slab side and no laser etching on them. I bit hard to tell since you've got a clear identifying label with white lettering over the spot where the laser etching would normally be, but it's my understanding that there were very few M6's made with a plain, un-etched side. I found one a couple of years ago and still own it and it was the first I had ever seen outside of a SF catalog. Just curious if my eyes deceive me.


----------



## Greenbean

*I just want to say Thank You again, to the OPs, DM51 and adamlau**

Yes I am resurrecting this, I love the M6 and the many of you who tested and played and 
made things so we could have rechargeable options, It's because of this thread I still have my 
M6 and run a FM Bi-Pin holder in a 3x17670 holder, Love this light....
I am saving to get the PhD-M6, lol... but alas that would help me "HAVE" to purchase another M6, hehehe

And because of this thread I recently got a hold of an M4 to run another FM Bi-Pin on 2x17670
to power a WA1111, 

Long live the Icans!!!


*


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## Brigadier

Just ordered an PhD-M6, a LF HO-M3T and 6 AW17670's. New life for the old M6.


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## Brigadier

Received the PhD-M6 yesterday. It is an impressive piece. Very high quality design and build. And the LF HO-M3T - very impressive. Set the Phd DIP switches to 7.5V, and it produces a very nice, tight beam, much better than the MN20/21, and throws much farther. And the color - I have never seen such a pure white incan. I am looking forward to the next Seattle GTG to show this bad boy off.

Hats off to Will and all involved in the design and manufacture of a wonderful piece of kit.


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## OscarTheDog

Because of this thread i am thinking of picking up another M6 plus i wanted to bring this thread back to life.


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## Kestrel

Roger that, the first 'M6 Shootout' thread was the most memorable part of my introduction to CPF.
IMO it was the gold standard of documenting high performance from 'back in the day'.
I went from 'you folks are crazy' to 'I want to go crazy.'


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## python

After I read this post - Shootout 1 & 2 - , I bought a Surefire M6


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## Brigadier

Still digging my M6/PhD-M6/LF HO-M3T combo. An excellent blend of output and run time.


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## Snacks

nice setup with the phd-m6. I wish that was still for sale or even the mdcod's battey holder.


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## Dark Laser

Hi there,

has anyone experimented with a 3x17670 setup running a 6 V 4000 h bulb?

Well, my brother had a few cheap 5 W bulbs ("Heitronic" brand) lying around; so we tested them with 4 LiFePO4 26650 as well as with 3 freshly charged Fenix 2600 18650s. Without soft-start circuit, of course :devil:
To our surprise, the bulbs did not seem to be impressed at all, so we switched them on and off a few times, but still they continued to work.
The color temperature was not too high, either, just a tad "whiter" than the Solarforce L1200 with the same fresh 18650s.
Too bad we can't measure lumens; so we had to rely on our eyes when comparing with different lights.
The setup was definitely brighter than a Wolfeyes 9M (SureFire 9P-ish); and a tad dimmer than a Mag ROP-Hi.

Current draw was about 1,2 A @ 12,2 V under load. A nice overdrive, I'd say ...

So I wonder what better bulbs could do, looking at the rather inconspicious Osram 64410 for example, or 10 W bulbs .


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## fivemega

Dark Laser said:


> has anyone experimented with a 3x17670 setup running a 6 V 4000 h bulb?


*I have tested above setup but with AW's protected cells and 20 watt bulb. It worked really bright and hot. Very close to instaflash.
Since current draw is close to max, other brand protected cells may need double or several click. I won't recommend IMR cells.*


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## Dark Laser

Sounds good 
Thanks for your feedback.
I truly believe that a 20 W bulb will be seriously bright, however, the 5 W was quite impressive as well considering the possible runtime.


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## vestureofblood

Great thread. Really just great. All the glory of the super incan days is embodied in the first post. Thanks DM


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## Blitzertac556

I finally got an M6 after literally 10 years of lust over them.....so glad I did. Glory to the incandescent days of SF. I wonder if a 8xAA option is possible.....


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## fivemega

Blitzertac556 said:


> I wonder if a 8xAA option is possible.....


*It is possible but extension tube is necessary and a good low resistance 8AA holder loaded with rechargeable NiMH batteries.
This $1 bulb is excellent choice for 8AA option.*


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## Daniel_sk

So what are the "best" current available incandescent options for SF M6? Are there any high output options for 2x18650? 

- The WA1185 is discounted (or too difficult / too expensive to find online) (3x16650), same for WA1111
- Philips 5761 is cheap and high-output but requires a soft-start which is almost impossible to get (PhD-M6 = unobtainium) (2x18650)
- Lumens Factory M6R - 700 lumens, 3x16650 setup - $25/bulb. 
- Lumens Factory EO-M3T - 450 lumens, 2x18650 - $23/bulb
- Tad MN7225 bi-pin is cheap (3.8$) and can be bought in large numbers, it's a 7.2V 2.5A bulb and produces about 400+ lumens. This could be a good 2x18650 setup. I only wish Tad would also offer a higher output version.


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## Minimoog

I'd like to know too. I have a boxed M4 and M6 never used as I really do want a rechargeable option. I was on the list for JS's M6R but he stopped making them just short of my pack reserve.


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## Hank25

Excellent thread with a ton of great information and content. I recently picked up a used M6 and am looking for a LiIon battery carrier (2x18650 or 3x16650). After searching the forum and this thread it appears these were made by multiple CPF users years ago but I am unable to locate a current open and active sales thread. Does anyone know of a current source or is the WTB thread the best option?


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## 325addict

There used to be a lot of rechargeable options available for the M6, from 2X 18650 battery holders by Mdocod and Fivemega, 3X 17670 battery holders from Fivemega and a LOT of bulb options, ranging from the drop-in replacements from Lumens Factory to the more customizable options brought to us by Fivemega and Tad Customs, in form of their "MN to bi-pin adapters" requiring one of the many WA (Welch Allyn) bulbs that were available in those days. These have all been dscontinued by WA.

MANY of these options are no longer available now, unfortunately.

If you ever would like to get rid of your M6, just give me a PM. Maybe I would like to buy it from you. I have TONS of gear for the M6, among these dozens and dozens of bulbs, a lot of MN to bi-pin adapters and some 7 battery holders. And quite some original SF lamp assemblies, as well as Lumens Factory lamp assemblies.



Minimoog said:


> I'd like to know too. I have a boxed M4 and M6 never used as I really do want a rechargeable option. I was on the list for JS's M6R but he stopped making them just short of my pack reserve.


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## Daniel_sk

Hank25 said:


> Excellent thread with a ton of great information and content. I recently picked up a used M6 and am looking for a LiIon battery carrier (2x18650 or 3x16650). After searching the forum and this thread it appears these were made by multiple CPF users years ago but I am unable to locate a current open and active sales thread. Does anyone know of a current source or is the WTB thread the best option?




CPF user altermann is still making 2x18650 holders if you contact him by PM, these are for protected cells (button top?). 
So I have just ordered an SF M6, it cost me an arm and leg in Europe. My plan is to use the 2x18650 adapter because 18650 development is going on and the capacity is still being increased and because they are so easy to buy. 3x16650 adapters are not being made anymore and 16650 isn't also that common compared to 18650 (also maximum capacity of 16650 is around 2500 mAh, 18650 are 3500+ mAh). 

Bi-pin bulbs are out of option for me, the adapters are not being made anymore and bulb production basically also stopped (no more WA1111, WA1185, and Tad also stopped making bulbs :shakehead). 
Fortunately we still have Mark from Lumens Factory and I hope he will keep making lamp modules for many years to come. 

I am deciding between the Lumens Factory *IMR-M3T* and *EO-M3T*. 
IMR-M3T is a 700 lumens 3.4A lamp module, this requires IMR chemistry cells. Modern IMR cells are close to 3000 mAh capacity, they don't require protection circuit and are quite safe. I guess I could get maybe 45 minutes runtime of something that would come close to the original MN21 output.
EO-M3T is a 450 lumen 2.4A lamp module. This one runs fine on regular 18650, so you get the higher capacity. In theory this will have a much longer runtime compared to the IMR lamp (80 minutes?)
These lamp modules have a 20 hour life.

I think I will pick the IMR-M3T + 2x18650, just because it's an M6 and it should go maximum brightness . But I think the unprotected cells will be too short for the 18650 adapter and I will probably need to use some spacers/magnets. Anybody else running this setup?


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## LED61

It went off the board into discoed at $399 retail. I haven´t seen one up for sale these days and wonder how much they go for nowadays.


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## 325addict

I would go for the EO-M3T and for regular 3500 or 3600mAh high quality li-ion cells, such as the ones by Keeppower. The cells used are "made in Japan" which is quite an assuring thing for quality. Even the HO-M3T is very bright and is my favorite LF lamp assembly for the M6. It draws 2 Amps and will comfortably give you over 90 minutes if runtime with 3600mAh cells, which are available protected too. I have 15+ lamp assemblies for my M6 and the HO-M3T is one of my firm favorites. All bulbs drawing 2~2.5 Amps are very usable. The ones by Tad, the MN20, and also the WA1274 are very good, usable bulbs. And of course the HO-M3T and EO-M3T...



Daniel_sk said:


> CPF user altermann is still making 2x18650 holders if you contact him by PM, these are for protected cells (button top?).
> So I have just ordered an SF M6, it cost me an arm and leg in Europe. My plan is to use the 2x18650 adapter because 18650 development is going on and the capacity is still being increased and because they are so easy to buy. 3x16650 adapters are not being made anymore and 16650 isn't also that common compared to 18650 (also maximum capacity of 16650 is around 2500 mAh, 18650 are 3500+ mAh).
> 
> Bi-pin bulbs are out of option for me, the adapters are not being made anymore and bulb production basically also stopped (no more WA1111, WA1185, and Tad also stopped making bulbs :shakehead).
> Fortunately we still have Mark from Lumens Factory and I hope he will keep making lamp modules for many years to come.
> 
> I am deciding between the Lumens Factory *IMR-M3T* and *EO-M3T*.
> IMR-M3T is a 700 lumens 3.4A lamp module, this requires IMR chemistry cells. Modern IMR cells are close to 3000 mAh capacity, they don't require protection circuit and are quite safe. I guess I could get maybe 45 minutes runtime of something that would come close to the original MN21 output.
> EO-M3T is a 450 lumen 2.4A lamp module. This one runs fine on regular 18650, so you get the higher capacity. In theory this will have a much longer runtime compared to the IMR lamp (80 minutes?)
> These lamp modules have a 20 hour life.
> 
> I think I will pick the IMR-M3T + 2x18650, just because it's an M6 and it should go maximum brightness . But I think the unprotected cells will be too short for the 18650 adapter and I will probably need to use some spacers/magnets. Anybody else running this setup?


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## Daniel_sk

Thanks, actually yesterday I was thinking about this again I came to the same conclusion. Although the M6 is something I can see maybe bringing for a walk in the woods and then using only for short bursts, and in this case runtime will never be an issue... I guess I would get more fun out of the IMR-M3T? Do you keep the M6 with HO-M3T switched on for extended times to make use of the much longer runtime?
I noticed you have a large M6 accessory collection (in an other thread), do you also have the PhD-M6? I am strongly thinking about getting one and there seems to be an opportunity, but I was wondering if all the added complexity (more failure points) and the hassle of 3 batteries instead of 2 more standard 18650 is worth it. I don't have a stash of cheap bi-pin bulbs (WA bulbs are rare, Tad stopped making them), so in the end I would just use some LF bulbs and benefit from soft-start + regulation. But in the end, is this worth it?


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## ma tumba

I have both 2x18650 adapter and the phd thing. Since the runtime sucks anyway I use the phd just because its a great stuff.

Now the right choice of a bulb is more complicated. A 500+ lm light can be had in a much more practical d26 form factor, so an M6 deserves something better. From experience I also know that a 20W (~600lm) bulb is the minimum that would encourage me to carry such a big light.

So I do think that it is going to be a 3x 3.7v config: either with a 1185 or 1909. 

The 1185 can be driven by the phd-m6, but it will be not regulated


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## Daniel_sk

Thanks for the input. Did you maybe also try LF IMR-M3T? This is a 2 cell bulb but requires a high-drain 18650 (with PCB protection 10A+) or IMR/INR battery. Basically at this 3.4A the capacity of 3500 mAh sags down to the same value as lower capacity modern IMR 3000mAh (e.g. some Vapcell). I wonder how the runtime would compare to 3x 16650 with PhD-M6, the highest capacity Keepower are 2500 mAh but these are 4.3V cells, so you need to charge them to 4.3V with a charge that supports it, otherwise you get only 2000mAh. Also this is a bit offtopic but I think that Keeppower PCB protection will not allow to charge over 4.2, so you never achieve full capacity - but there are other cells based on the same 16650 model that allow you to go to 4.3V.


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## ma tumba

I have tried some LF bulbs but as I said I was really inclined to go WELL beyond 1000lm with this reflector, which means 5+ amps at 2x or 3x 3.7V

Now it just occurred to me that the are now plenty of 10A 18350 cells around, so I might try a 12V bulb with 4x18350 in a 2x18650 adapter. there are good 50W ones. And some of them are axial, and trust my word - as soon as you have tried an axial bulb you would never look back


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## Daniel_sk

This sounds interesting, please keep us updated on your 18350 experiments . I am searching for options where I can "stockpile" the bulbs. I have zero right now and hunting down some WA1185 / WA1111 + being located in Europe makes this a no-go for me, it's too much of a hassle and then I have regrets of burning rare bulbs which I may never find again. That's what I am looking at LF right now, they are expensive but readily available. The bulb life is 20 hours so they will serve me a long time. 
I don't have any experience with axial bulbs and 50W sounds crazy :-D, but if you can find some setup that works for 15-20 minutes and doesn't melt the whole light or the battery holder, then this would be interesting.


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## ma tumba

CPF member chillin has posted his experience using 1909 bulb (which is a 60W) in a lego of a 3x 18650 leef body and stock m6 head, so you may find that reading useful.

these bulbs are still available from fivemega as well as the leef bodies


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## Daniel_sk

Thanks, I will look into that. 3x 18650 Leef is too long. I like the M6 form factor. I wish 3x 18650 would fit  (yes I know about the FM Megalenium but I don't like the looks of it and I prefer original SF). I had a 2x18650 Leef (why did I sell it ) and that was fine, but M6 is better with cells side by side.


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