# Questions about getting a thrower SureFire (Turbo?)head for the new FM C-type body



## Kestrel (Jan 14, 2009)

Summary: Will LED or Incan SureFire heads fit my THROWING needs for this body?

I just placed an order for the new FM C-head / 2-C cell body and am now looking for a head to outperform the (wonderful) Malkoff M60 in throw (first priority) and output (secondary priority). At this point I don’t know to go either LED (my first preference due to greater efficiency) or Incan (which I know has an inherent throw advantage). I am hoping for something like a “poor-man’s” rechargeable SF M6. My knowledge is a bit limited outside of the following topics:

Unmodified edc-sized SureFires up to and including my trusty C3 Centurion w/Malkoff,
Malkoff drop-ins,
and the advantages/limitations of LiIon chemistries.
Therefore, I know very little about SF Turbohead configurations. From what I understand, the ~2.5 inch diameter Turboheads might be what I am looking for?


Possible options, please correct me if I am on the wrong track:

LED: The upcoming SureFire KL9 LED head, once it is available, should be 350+ lumens. I have doubts about it being compatible with 7.4V input. Would this design give me the throw that I am looking for? I am not looking for more output at the expense of throw. Are there other SF heads that would be of interest? They are like alphabet soup without the vowels to me.:duh2:
Incan: Using the SureFire M6 head would be a significant conversion and expense: a C-to-M adaptor & bi-pin bulb, although this will give me both great throw and the great output that I am looking for (~500+ lumens). I would prefer something like a Turbohead for the M3 perhaps (as it will thread directly onto my C-type FM body if I understand correctly), but can I get enough output and throw with this? I understand that the SF bulb options in this head will give me great throw, but could be limited in the lumen department, and the SF LA’s are considerably more expensive than a bi-pin arrangement. A bi-pin conversion would be satisfactory.
If there is no satisfactory solution, I will just get a regular SF C-type head, put an M60 in there and enjoy 240 lumens, decent throw, and ~5 hours of runtime. Reading about the M6 rechargeable options recently has really got me thinking in this new direction, though.

I have done a few searches on this, but there seem to be many SF head options that I am still trying to figure out, so I thought to post this thread. I am posting in the General section, but if this thread moves toward Incan, I will need it moved into the Incan forum & will ask for assistance for that.
Thank you.

Edit: Just read that SF will have a M3 TIR head by sometime this century. Might be nice, we may know more later.


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## curtispdx (Jan 14, 2009)

You should consider running a LF IMR bulb in there. Awesome.


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## Justin Case (Jan 14, 2009)

Many options, including:

OpticsHQ's new TX-3 TurboHead. See this thread.

Find a rare T-62 or SRTH TurboHead (both will fit on a 6P-series compatible body), install an N62 incandescent lamp, and drive it with two 3.7V Li-ions. I've done it with two 17670s (not an ideal configuration IMO), others with two 18650s (better).

Get a SureFire TurboHead Conversion Kit (e.g., KT1 or KT2) that fits a 6P-series body. Drive the same N62 with two Li-ions. Probably less ideal in terms of the "KT" TurboHead combined with an N62 lamp. The N62 really works best with the T-62 or SRTH.

Get a T-62, SRTH, or KT TurboHead and build one of the AW/Arcmania LED towers.

Use the Lumens Factory IMR-M3T lamp in a TurboHead (the issue is that LF clearly states that this lamp is only for IMR batteries).


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## nzgunnie (Jan 14, 2009)

Kestrel said:


> Incan: Using the SureFire M6 head would be a significant conversion and expense: a C-to-M adaptor & bi-pin bulb, although this will give me both great throw and the great output that I am looking for (~500+ lumens). I would prefer something like a Turbohead for the M3 perhaps (as it will thread directly onto my C-type FM body if I understand correctly), but can I get enough output and throw with this? I understand that the SF bulb options in this head will give me great throw, but could be limited in the lumen department, and the SF LA’s are considerably more expensive than a bi-pin arrangement. A bi-pin conversion would be satisfactory.



The Turbo head for the M3 is exactly the same as the turbo head on the M6. M3 heads (including the KL9) wont fit your FM body without an aftermarket C-M adapter.

What you are looking for is the KT-2 head that goes on the 9P.


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## Kestrel (Jan 15, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> Many options, including:
> OpticsHQ's new TX-3 TurboHead. See this thread.
> ...
> Get a SureFire TurboHead Conversion Kit (e.g., KT1 or KT2) that fits a 6P-series body. Drive the same N62 with two Li-ions. Probably less ideal in terms of the "KT" TurboHead combined with an N62 lamp. The N62 really works best with the T-62 or SRTH.
> ...


Thank you very much for this info. That OpticsHQ TX-3 turbohead looks nearly perfect for my requirements, LED too. The SF KT-2 conversion looks like a good solution as well, particularly while using that LF IMR-M3T bulb - the stock SF bulb in that KT-2 doesn't excite me at all, and I'm pretty sure that I will be able to use the non-IMR chemistry since the C-sized LiIons can discharge so much more current in a safe manner compared to the smaller size cells. Those LED towers you mention are a bit too much in the hands-on modification department, though.

Edit: Hmm, the TX-3 will still need a C-M adaptor. I was hoping I could avoid that. :-/



nzgunnie said:


> The Turbo head for the M3 is exactly the same as the turbo head on the M6. M3 heads (including the KL9) wont fit your FM body without an aftermarket C-M adapter.
> 
> What you are looking for is the KT-2 head that goes on the 9P.


Ah, that is good to know, there is a lot to the SF turboheads that I had not yet absorbed in my normal reading. And I so do not want to bother with the C-M adapter, as you have inferred.


Thanks, I'm beginning to understand SF-style Turboheads a little better now. I will be leaning toward the TX-3, but I can keep my mind on the KT-2 / LF IMR-M3T as well. I now have a lot more reading to do on these items. I can be patient until all the pieces come together conceptually, I really want to spend the time to get the setup that closest meets my needs. 

I still don't have my brain around all the other SF heads out there yet, but I imagine that they will not get me the throw that I am looking for, compared to the 2.5" diameter turboheads.

Any more thoughts from folks, I would greatly appreciate it. This is only the third thread I've created in 15-16 months on CPF and I really want to get my money's worth.


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## Kestrel (Jan 15, 2009)

Hmm, the LF IMR-3T might not be an option due to running such a high current through a clicky:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2677737&postcount=24
This new FM C-cell body has a clicky, and it sounds as though the current will be way over what a clicky can take & remain reliable. I very much doubt that there is any twisty that can be used on this body either...

Here's the new body I'll be working with BTW:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/216471


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## Justin Case (Jan 15, 2009)

Regarding C-M adapters, ASFAIK the SureFire KT1, KT2, and KT5 conversion kits all use the same TurboHead and they all use a collar to mate the KT TH to the appropriate SF flashlight body (i.e., 6P/9P or 8NX). When you buy the complete TH Conversion Kit, you also get the appropriate lamp for the corresponding SF flashlight you are converting. The old T-62 and SRTH TurboHeads use a different collar, but the function is the same -- to mate the TH to the 6P/9P body.


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## Nite (Jan 15, 2009)

IM running an MN21 on 2x18650 IMR with KT2 head, it is about 2.5 inch diameter has huge throw about the size of an M3T

its awesome


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## Nite (Jan 15, 2009)

anyone got a pic of an SRTH?


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## Kestrel (Jan 15, 2009)

It sounds as though the LED aspect of my question as been covered as completely as possible, my best options for that seem to be as follows:

OpticsHQ TX-3 LED Turbohead
The M3T TIR LED Turbohead prototype that is currently showing at SHOT 2009. I'm sure we'll be able to read more on that later, as there is a lot of interest in that item in the current SHOT thread.
The Malkoff M60 in a standard C-type head
For additional Incan information (like suitability of the IMR M3T or comparable LA's), I'm going to see about getting this thread moved to the Incan section now...

Thanks,


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## DM51 (Jan 15, 2009)

I'll move it for you now.


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## DM51 (Jan 15, 2009)

I think most of the info is already there, from nzgunnie, Nite and others, and you've worked out a lot of it for yourself too. The SRTH could be hard to find. The KT4 is an M-fitting, so it can't be used with your C-fitting body without an adapter (also hard to find). 

The Surefire KT2 head is a very good thrower, and would be what I would recommend for you. You can get it in HA Nat or BK. It takes the Surefire M3T or M6 compatible LAs: MN15, 16, 20 & 21 (also the M4's MN60 & 61, but they are higher-voltage). Better yet, it will also take the excellent Lumens Factory bulbs for M6 and M3T (including the new IMR ones) and on top of all that choice you could use a Fivemega MN bi-pin adapter with a WA 1111 or WA 1185 (or other) hotwire bulbs, depending on the number of cells you are intending to use.

The Lumens Factory route is probably the best one to give you the least trouble, as these LAs are designed for Li-Ion cells (LiCo and LiMn, depending on specs) rather than primaries.


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## Owen (Jan 15, 2009)

Nite said:


> anyone got a pic of an SRTH?


I could only find a couple of crappy ones that I posted several years ago, and the pics on LPS's site are as good as those. 
Here's where they come from:
http://www.lpstactical.com/hd3t.htm

btw, be advised that these have a polycarbonate/Lexan lens that could feasibly deform or just plain melt with some of the high output bulbs that will fit in it. I don't know of anyone doing that, just sayin'...

edit: here's one of my old pics, anyway:


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## mdocod (Jan 15, 2009)

Definitely slip a KT2 on there for starts and start playing with bulb options first. Reason I say this is very simple... If something better comes out, or you decide to switch to a different option, you can resell a KT2 very easily on CPFMP with minimal loss of value. 

Super-Thrower class LED configurations are great toys, and can be used as tools in a few limited circumstance, it's often like having a laser with a strong spill beam, which isn't very practical accept in a few situations. I do like super-thrower style LEDs for lighting up house addresses, but that's about it... having said that, a TIR thrower class head would be more effective in some ways, and less in others. That's one of the biggest problems with LED thrower class lights right now, you have to choose between either a reflector based system, or some optical focusing system, and in most cases, this means either choosing way too much spill light (~up to 50% of total illumination on reflectors) or very little (~10% or less on TIR and other optical focusing systems). 

If you choose a lamp like the IMR-M3T, or WA1111, or 64250, you'll be seeing over 500 torch lumens fresh from the charger, This is a noticeable step above the ~250 lumen M60. 

Textured SF style turboheads with incans offer a much different user experience. It's like a splotch of light that carries with authority. These are not "laser" beams, and generally speaking, with higher wattage bulbs comes a wider splotch of light. The soft spill light is in a more appropriate balance with the central beam for use in primarily throw oriented tasks, but since it still has a useful spill beam, you can identify stuff around you without being blinded by the spill. 

I haven't ever used or seen an M60 in action, so it's hard to say how much improvement you're going to see overall, but I own a number of LED modules that have been tested to perform in the ~175-200 "true" torch lumen range, and can say that even some of the lower powered bulbs I have run in the M6 compete very well with this... I have some LF bulbs coming in the mail, no doubt I'll be doing some comparison shots and I'll throw an LED or 2 in there for fun  keep your eyes peeled in the next week or so for a beam-shot shootout. 

Oh... almost forgot to mention:
As for your clicky switch in the FM body. I doubt it will be a problem. You might toss FM a line and ask what kind of voltage/current it can handle. I'm sure FM has considered that people would be doing 3xC>1185 builds with it, which is about the same current and even more voltage than a 2xC>IMR-M3T. He even suggests his 1794 as an option, which is a 7V 3A lamp, not far behind an IMR-M3T at all.

Eric


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## nzgunnie (Jan 15, 2009)

> The M3T TIR LED Turbohead prototype that is currently showing at SHOT 2009. I'm sure we'll be able to read more on that later, as there is a lot of interest in that item in the current SHOT thread.


 
Except you will probably still be waiting another year for this and the KL-9 if Surefire's track record is anything to go by. Well you might see the KL-9 a bit sooner since it was in last years catalogue.

And of course they wont fit your set up without the C-M.


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## Owen (Jan 15, 2009)

Kestrel said:


> Summary: Will LED or Incan SureFire heads fit my THROWING needs for this body?
> 
> I just placed an order for the new FM C-head / 2-C cell body and am now looking for a head to outperform the (wonderful) Malkoff M60 in throw (first priority) and output (secondary priority). At this point I don’t know to go either LED (my first preference due to greater efficiency) or Incan (which I know has an inherent throw advantage). I am hoping for something like a “poor-man’s” rechargeable SF M6.


Based on some of your comments, you seem to be concerned about how much difference there will be in output and throw compared with the Malkoff, so I took a shot with a couple of lights I have sitting here. 
The MN16, rated at 225 lumens by SF on 2x18650 vs. Malkoff M60W rated at 170 lumens on 2x18500:edit: the second shot is with the MN21(the sun stopped shining through the blinds, meanwhile): 





Keep in mind the MN16 is overdriven in this configuration, and would probably go poof on 2xC Li-ions. The MN21 is not much brighter, IMO, but the spot is much larger. The IMR-M3T from Lumens Factory looks like a safe bet to fall in between the MN16 and MN21 in output, and should work fine on the C-sized cells. I love my Malkoff, and may never use another incan in a 2-3 cell SF with standard head, but I don't think you're going to be disappointed in the combos these guys are recommending if more throw and output are what you're looking for.


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## cl0123 (Jan 15, 2009)

Kestrel, 

Thanks for starting this thread. The following line in your first message really caught my attention...


Kestrel said:


> ...put an M60 in there and enjoy 240 lumens, decent throw, and ~5 hours of runtime.


...and pretty much re-ignited my interests in the C-cells arena. :twothumbs

Of course, I first need to rush over to FM's thread to do a . Incans fueled by C-cells make very logical sense in terms of performance per run-time, but it has been quite challenging to obtain the right Leef parts to complete a functioning light. I do not know about the FM's C-bodies offering until I see this thread. Mahalo! Wish you the best of luck in finding a KT2 head for your light. I have a KT2 natural but if I can possess the option of a WA1111 powered by 2 C-cells, the color mismatch does not bother me. Not sure if the islands are having a El Nina year or what not because our Civil Defense just issued another storm warning to many institutions. Yet if we have another blackout coming my way, the idea of a 5 hours M60 runtime is very inviting and practical.

I will be following this thread and hopefully get a few more lamp ideas and possiblities for the 2 C-cells. I was really interested in IMR cells and lamps setup last year until I read about the short run-times. It looks like your thread here may be taking me to a new, incandescent of course, direction. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence


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## BigusLightus (Jan 15, 2009)

One example of a 6P with a new KT-1 turbohead.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/217537


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## naked2 (Jan 15, 2009)

What would be a good price for a mint KT-1/2?


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## mdocod (Jan 15, 2009)

naked2 said:


> What would be a good price for a mint KT-1/2?



I'm hoping to find someone trying to sell a really beat up one to me for $10


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## Nite (Jan 15, 2009)

get your KT2 head for 20% off new from tactical supply and cpf code.


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## naked2 (Jan 15, 2009)

Nite said:


> get your KT2 head for 20% off new from tactical supply and cpf code.


I already ordered one from them (KT-1, $84), I was just wondering what they go for used.


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## Justin Case (Jan 15, 2009)

Some SRTH images.


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## nzgunnie (Jan 15, 2009)

naked2 said:


> I already ordered one from them (KT-1, $84), I was just wondering what they go for used.



They don't come up often, but usually go for at least that, last one I saw went for around $100 I think.


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## Kestrel (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks for all the helpful replies & photos, folks. Leaning toward the KT-1or2 and the IMR M3T lamp, there is lots to read here on _Planet Incan_. I will reply later citing specific helpful quotes and probably more questions.


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## DHart (Jan 16, 2009)

Great topic, Kestrel... hereby gluing my eyes 'n' ears to where this goes. Thank you. :thumbsup:


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## roadie (Jan 16, 2009)

i jus got a new one without the bulb for ... US$60 +/- 

its still awaiting for its host body, though :O



naked2 said:


> What would be a good price for a mint KT-1/2?


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## naked2 (Jan 16, 2009)

roadie said:


> i jus got a new one without the bulb for ... US$60 +/-
> 
> its still awaiting for its host body, though :O


Where'd you get yours?


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## roadie (Jan 16, 2009)

:x


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## Justin Case (Jan 23, 2009)

Some photos of my AW/Arcmania LED towers for SureFire TurboHeads. Post #23 above shows a tower installed in my SureFire 12ZM TurboHead.










Here is a comparison of the raw tower vs. a brass pill from a Deal Extreme 6090.






Beamshot, 16 feet to the back wall.






Beamshot from an M30 for comparison.






A white wall (ceiling) beam shot of the tower in the 12ZM, from about 6 feet.


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## Kestrel (Jan 23, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> Some photos of my AW/Arcmania LED towers for SureFire TurboHeads.


Thanks for the photos and the beamshot comparisons. It is helpful to see what the LED tower will do in the turbohead (while your LED should be comparable in output to the M30 LED, it appears as though your turbohead hotspot is brighter and somewhat smaller, as expected from what I’ve read about the THs). Thanks for the M30 comparison, that’s the easiest way for me to relate to where I’m going. At the risk of getting banished from Planet Incan, this is definitely a viable alternative to the higher-output incan lamps. (Please no flame war, I’ve already read them and can see both sides of the issue.)

Now I’ve got to do some shopping for a KT-1 or KT-2 (or the yet-to-be-released FM Turbohead), plus two AW C’s (currently out of stock) and to look into a dedicated LiIon charger for C’s (there’s a sale thread running on one, but it looks a little uncertain).

Plus the lamp/led option as discussed, plus an M60 & a 17500-capable charger for my C3, maybe two NiCad/NiMH C’s for this body & my M30 ... You know how it goes.

A big *thank-you* to you folks for all the help.:twothumbs
K


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## Superdave (Jan 23, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> Some photos of my AW/Arcmania LED towers for SureFire TurboHeads. Post #23 above shows the tower installed in my SureFire 12ZM TurboHead.


 
Wow, can you still buy these?.. i just sent a cad design to a friend's machine shop to make something very similar. Mine are setup to mount a MC-E (or anything that'll fit) and a 17mm driver.


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## Justin Case (Jan 23, 2009)

The AW tower with Seoul P4 U2 bin LED in my T-62 TH also has a much larger and brighter spill vs the M30. The tower's spill in the TH is very uniform in lux measurement almost all the way to the edge of the beam, while the M30 drops off steadily as you move to the beam's edge.

At least for 12PM/ZM owners, these LED towers IMO make the flashlight practical to use. The N62 lamp is all well and good with its 500 lumen rating, but it runs hot, it eats 123A primaries, and it has lousy run time.

I swapped the 4x123A 12ZM body for a 6P body and have a short, lightweight thrower (which also has excellent spill) that runs on 2xAW16340. It's great. I then put the 6P bezel on the 12ZM body and added a DX11836 R2 drop-in for another bright light with long run time.


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## Justin Case (Jan 23, 2009)

Superdave said:


> Wow, can you still buy these?.. i just sent a cad design to a friend's machine shop to make something very similar. Mine are setup to mount a MC-E (or anything that'll fit) and a 17mm driver.


 
Yes, you can still order the AW towers from the Marketplace, Dealer's Corner. Search for "tower module" and "turbo sink". Make sure you specify either Luxeon or Seoul focus (slightly different heights for the tower, to account for the slightly different positions of the LED die in the emitter). However, even if you select a Luxeon focus tower, and later want to install a Seoul LED, you could just use an 0.03" thick copper shim from The Sandwich Shoppe to raise up the Seoul LED to the proper height. The minor downside is that you have two interfaces to glue down and which may increase the resistance to heat conduction from the LED's slug to the tower.

Conversely, if you got the Seoul focus tower and later wanted to mount a Luxeon, you can get some washer-style shims from McMaster-Carr, slide the shims over the narrow stem part of the tower, and then insert the tower into the TH. The shims will prevent the tower from inserting completely into the TH (presumanly, you want to get a shim or shims that add up to 0.03" thickness), which has the same effect as having a shorter tower.

I used an SOB 1000 driver board from The Sandwich Shoppe. Get some teflon-insulated hookup wire, not the standard PVC-insulated wire. It will make soldering a lot easier. The PVC is way too heat-sensitive and will shrink/melt away unless you are really good with the soldering iron, especially where you solder the wire to the LED terminals. You really don't want to have a short of the + wire lead to the aluminum tower. Teflon also seems tougher in terms of abrasion resistance. 24 gauge stranded wire seems to barely fit in the little holes for the SOB -- a very tight fit sometimes, maybe due to manufacturing tolerances for the SOB? 26 gauge should be no problem, but the current capacity of 26AWG is about 2.2A, vs. 3.5A for 24 AWG. That doesn't matter for the Seoul P4, so the issue is probably academic. I've measured about 0.5A draw at the tailcap IIRC for 2xAW16340. I like the stranded wire because there seems to be much less chance of the wire fatiguing and breaking as you wiggle the wires around during construction and assembly compared to solid wire.

It also might be useful to have a test LED emitter or star handy. Once you have the SOB 1000 wired up (or whatever board you choose to use), you can hook up the test LED to ensure driver board function before you proceed to assemble the tower completely.

I would also lightly file or sand the top of the tower's stem, where you glue the LED. IMO, the slight roughness/texture will give you better grip to the tower by the thermal epoxy. When I've filed my towers with a fine diamond file, I've noticed that the top of the tower is slightly concave. So the filing/sanding may also give you a flatter surface for gluing.

I've driven my towers with 1xAW17670, 2xAW16340, 2xAW17670, 2xSF123A, and 4xSF123A. All combinations work great.

If you do a search on CPF, you can find lots of photos of various TurboHead towers, including one with some dimensions (I think it was for a "yclo" designed tower).


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## Kestrel (Jan 23, 2009)

cl0123 said:


> Kestrel,
> Thanks for starting this thread. The following line in your first message really caught my attention...





Kestrel said:


> If there is no satisfactory solution, I will just get a regular SF C-type head, put an M60 in there and enjoy 240 lumens, decent throw, and ~5 hours of runtime.





cl0123 said:


> ...and pretty much re-ignited my interests in the C-cells arena. :twothumbs
> Of course, I first need to rush over to FM's thread to do a .


Hello Clarence,
Your description of imagining an M60 with this level of runtime makes me . I just noticed that you placed an order in the FM 'C-body' sales thread.:twothumbs

If anybody wants to post in this thread their thoughts on the new FM body, go right ahead, I created this thread to discuss using Turboheads on the FM 'C' bodies. I find the various possibilities very interesting.


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## Superdave (Jan 23, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> Yes, you can still order the AW towers from the Marketplace, Dealer's Corner. Search for "tower module" and "turbo sink". Make sure you specify either Luxeon or Seoul focus (slightly different heights for the tower, to account for the slightly different positions of the LED die in the emitter). However, even if you select a Luxeon focus tower, and later want to install a Seoul LED, you could just use an 0.03" thick copper shim from The Sandwich Shoppe to raise up the Seoul LED to the proper height. The minor downside is that you have two interfaces to glue down and which may increase the resistance to heat conduction from the LED's slug to the tower.
> 
> Conversely, if you got the Seoul focus tower and later wanted to mount a Luxeon, you can get some washer-style shims from McMaster-Carr, slide the shims over the narrow stem part of the tower, and then insert the tower into the TH. The shims will prevent the tower from inserting completely into the TH (presumanly, you want to get a shim or shims that add up to 0.03" thickness), which has the same effect as having a shorter tower.
> 
> ...


 

Cool. I was going to use the 3 mode P7 driver that KD sells to drive the MC-E in 4P. My tower design was slightly different in that i designed it to be a tad tall to allow for shimming for focus. 

thanks for the tip on the teflon wire, i'll look into that. 


Dave


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## Justin Case (Jan 23, 2009)

See this thread about the yclo tower for the key dimension of 0.790" (what I call the stem height). My AW/Arcmania tower measures 0.805" for the stem height. I can't recall what I measured for the filament height in an N62 lamp. But it may be that the AW tower is slightly taller, like your design, and can allow for shimming to play with the focus. However, I don't notice any beam quality issues as-is.


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## Superdave (Jan 23, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> See this thread about the yclo tower for the key dimension of 0.790" (what I call the stem height). My AW/Arcmania tower measures 0.805" for the stem height. I can't recall what I measured for the filament height in an N62 lamp. But it may be that the AW tower is slightly taller, like your design, and can allow for shimming to play with the focus. However, I don't notice any beam quality issues as-is.


 

wow those measurements are taller than i had planned for mine. I had .7" stem height using a MC-E. Good thing my friend hasn't started on them yet. I didn't think to measure to filament height. You can see that the SSC in his fog picture isn't focused for max throw by the way the beam breaks up after 4-5 feet. 

I noticed those are also drilled through the stem, i had planned for channels to run down the outside of the stem for the wires, then drilled into the base. 


I've also got him working on a scalloped tailcap end for the Z59 clickie. It drives me nuts that i can't tailstand my lights.


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## cl0123 (Jan 24, 2009)

Kestrel said:


> Hello Clarence,
> Your description of imagining an M60 with this level of runtime makes me . I just noticed that you placed an order in the FM 'C-body' sales thread.:twothumbs
> 
> If anybody wants to post in this thread their thoughts on the new FM body, go right ahead, I created this thread to discuss using Turboheads on the FM 'C' bodies. I find the various possibilities very interesting.



:sigh: Will-power is weak....  ...cutting more into the UA2 UB2 budget. :mecry:

OTOH, they are all different things, aren't they? I mean, look, incan is a different hobby altogether to LED, ain't it? :naughty:

I have an FM1794 + 2x18650 setup that is still running on its first bulb. Most of the time, it does not run for more than 15 minutes continuously, and it should have about 6-7 hours on it, rough est. My concern is the heat built-up and the practical usability of the flashlight though. The tiny black 9P bezel does get very very hot after a while to the point that it may blister your fingers if you're not careful. 

My main goal or wish on going C-cell is to get more run-time on a pair of protected 18650 coupled with WA1111. I thought the turbohead that I have is a KT-2 (at least the box says that) but I kinda remember it uses a very skinny MN10 lamp. Does the FM Bi-Pin MN socket really fit through that thing? I need to look into it again. 

If the 2 C-cell + WA1111 + 9P bezel combination turns out to be too hot for practical uses, I may have to look for some kind of C-to-M adapter to go with a KT-4 instead. It would have been great if I can find a complete Leef setup from head to toe, but then it is always fun :devil: to experiment with new setups. After all, I have had very good experiences with all of my FM gears so far. 

The skinny all-black FM1794 flashlight really "wows" people, probably more so because of its stealthy looks. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence


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## mdocod (Jan 24, 2009)

cl0123 said:


> :sigh: Will-power is weak....  ...cutting more into the UA2 UB2 budget. :mecry:
> 
> OTOH, they are all different things, aren't they? I mean, look, incan is a different hobby altogether to LED, ain't it? :naughty:
> 
> I have an FM1794 + 2x18650 setup that is still running on its first bulb. Most of the time, it does not run for more than 15 minutes continuously, and it should have about 6-7 hours on it, rough est. My concern is the heat built-up and the practical usability of the flashlight though. The tiny black 9P bezel does get very very hot after a while to the point that it may blister your fingers if you're not careful.



If the bezel is hot enough to blister your fingers, then please consider the possibility that the battery in the forward position may also be experiencing heat of this magnitude, temperatures in excess of 140F can cause permanent damage to a Li-Ion cell, and can also increase risk factor. I don't recommend running this type of bulb for more than 5 minutes at a time. 



> My main goal or wish on going C-cell is to get more run-time on a pair of protected 18650 coupled with WA1111. I thought the turbohead that I have is a KT-2 (at least the box says that) but I kinda remember it uses a very skinny MN10 lamp. Does the FM Bi-Pin MN socket really fit through that thing? I need to look into it again.



The KT2 comes standard with either an N2 or MN15 lamp, but it's compatible with any of the lamps that fit the SF 2.5" and larger turboheads, like the MN16, MN20, MN21, MN60, MN61. The FM bi-pin MN socket will fit the turbo-head included in the KT2 "kit." Many G4 base bi-pin bulbs will fit up through that hole in the reflector without a problem, some are tight, some won't fit at all, the WA bulbs fit fine 




> If the 2 C-cell + WA1111 + 9P bezel combination turns out to be too hot for practical uses, I may have to look for some kind of C-to-M adapter to go with a KT-4 instead. It would have been great if I can find a complete Leef setup from head to toe, but then it is always fun :devil: to experiment with new setups. After all, I have had very good experiences with all of my FM gears so far.



The WA1111 will run even hotter than the 1794.

You won't need a C to M adapter if you already have a KT2, the only advantage of the KT4 is the shock isolation. Both the KT2 and KT4 will take the same bulbs, including FMs bi-pin to MN socket "tower."

Please keep in mind, that moving to a "C" body configuration, while increasing your total runtime, will still require vigilance on your part limiting the continuous runs to keep the heat under control. Using a turbo-head will reduce the heat problem dramatically as it's like having a huge chunk of aluminum to sink heat to, but it can still get oiut of hand...

This is one reason I like running a pair of 18650s in the M6 with an adapter, the plastic acts as an insulator and can handle temps of over 300F before melting, the thermal insulation "barrier" will keep a pair of cells at reasonable temps through a long continuous run. I've run my M6 through complete discharges on some very high power lamps and the cells only come out warm to the touch 

Eric


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## cl0123 (Jan 24, 2009)

mdocod said:


> If the bezel is hot enough to blister your fingers, then please consider the possibility that the battery in the forward position may also be experiencing heat of this magnitude



My thoughts exactly. Of course, I "had to" do that just to see. :sigh: The light was propped up on small block of wood and left on for at least 15-18 minutes before I turned it off. It was a good test for me to confirm that it would last more than 15 minutes, continuously. 



mdocod said:


> You won't need a C to M adapter if you already have a KT2, the only advantage of the KT4 is the shock isolation. ...
> 
> This is one reason I like running a pair of 18650s in the M6 with an adapter, the plastic acts as an insulator and can handle temps of over 300F before melting, the thermal insulation "barrier" will keep a pair of cells at reasonable temps through a long continuous run. I've run my M6 through complete discharges on some very high power lamps and the cells only come out warm to the touch
> 
> Eric



The C-to-M adapter was meant to couple a KT-4 to the FM 2C tube. If the KT-2 can accommodate the FM Bi-Pin socket, life would be so good. I really ought to check it out before I say more. 

Eric, I am not sure I am following. What plastic adapter are you referring to? Do you mean the battery magazine or something else instead? :thinking:

With Aloha, 

Clarence


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## mdocod (Jan 24, 2009)

cl0123 said:


> The C-to-M adapter was meant to couple a KT-4 to the FM 2C tube. If the KT-2 can accommodate the FM Bi-Pin socket, life would be so good. I really ought to check it out before I say more.



Again, KT2 and KT4 accept the same lamps. If it fits in one, it fits in the other. Enjoy 



> Eric, I am not sure I am following. What plastic adapter are you referring to? Do you mean the battery magazine or something else instead? :thinking:
> 
> With Aloha,
> 
> Clarence



You know which adapter I am talking about 

remember?


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## cl0123 (Jan 24, 2009)

mdocod said:


> Again, KT2 and KT4 accept the same lamps. If it fits in one, it fits in the other. Enjoy



Mwahahahahahahaaaa! :devil: Other than lighting it up on top of an C3 and taking a few pictures of it, I suppose the evidence was clear that I did not pay enough attention to the KT-2.  Somehow my mind kept associating it with the Z46 thinking they share the same lamp size. Never mind that now, FM's new C-tube just opens up some exciting options that are certainly worth exploring. 



mdocod said:


> You know which adapter I am talking about
> 
> remember?



 What'd you talking about? I have a white and a clear one that they cancel each other out.  

On an off-topic note, the 2x18650 + WA1111 M6 you see in the tiny Pelican in the background did actually see some actions during the last blackout we had on the island. Doing ceiling bounce duties and comparing them side-by-side, the 3x18650 + WA1185 was visibily brighter han the WA1111 setup. However, from my own tests and observations, I decided to continue designating the WA1111 + 2x18650 as my emergency setup since it is easier to recharge 2 versus 3 cells, which for my own intents and purposes outweighs the extra lumens of the WA1185. YMMV. 

 Wow, I am really looking forward to start on the FM C-Cells products. Challenges to overcome: waiting for the AW C-cells to come back on stock and also finding the right charger gears for them. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence


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## Justin Case (Jan 24, 2009)

Superdave said:


> wow those measurements are taller than i had planned for mine. I had .7" stem height using a MC-E. Good thing my friend hasn't started on them yet. I didn't think to measure to filament height. You can see that the SSC in his fog picture isn't focused for max throw by the way the beam breaks up after 4-5 feet.
> 
> I noticed those are also drilled through the stem, i had planned for channels to run down the outside of the stem for the wires, then drilled into the base.
> 
> ...



The yclo P4 beam's hot spot looks tighter than for the MN21, with a slightly narrower spill angle as well (but it still looks more than adequately wide).

Regarding yclo's comment in the linked post about having trouble electrically isolating the P4's slug from the tower, I've had no problems. I've used about a 1/2 to 3/4 rice grain sized blob of Arctic Alumina thermal epoxy, swirled the LED emitter around to spread the epoxy over the full interface, centered the LED on the tower by eye, and then let the epoxy cure. No problems with heat, no color shift of the P4 to blue, etc.

The wires from the driver board to the LED for the AW tower run up a center channel drilled inside of the stem. The channel terminates where you see those small side holes where the wires emerge. Most likely, the yclo tower uses the same design.

If you examine the yclo and AW/Arcmania towers, you will see that the stem has two diameters. The wider section at the bottom fits tightly in the hole in the SF TurboHead and provides the mechanical support to hold the tower in the reflector. The narrower section is basically the same diameter as the LED emitter. This narrower section is the part of the tower that actually protrudes into the reflector space.

If you use grooves cut into the stem instead of a center channel, then my guess is that you really have to make sure that your lead wires stay put and don't get abraded any time you remove and re-insert the tower into the TH. The wires also have to stay away from the face of the tower's base, because that part presses tightly against the bottom of the TH when you insert the tower into the reflector. Running the wires on the outside of the stem just seems to invite potential wire pinching and abrasion problems in my visualization of it.

With the yclo and AW/Arcmania design, the "stepped" stem allows the top part of the stem to slide into the TH without any resistance, as long as you trim back the LED emitter's terminals and make sure that the lead wires are running vertically upward, close to the stem surface, and soldered closely to the emitter. What I've done is trim my Seoul P4 terminals back and then fold them down flat against the plastic emitter case. Then I solder the lead wires to the *sides* (not on top) of the + and - LED terminals. Here's a photo:







That gives me just enough clearance for the narrow part of the stem, with the wires running along the sides, to slide into the TH with minimal contact. In a Milky tower photo I recently saw on CPF, he covered the exposed wires with a cylinder of plastic film, presumably to provide additional mechanical and shorting protection.

The fit for everything is very close. Slightly thicker hookup wire would be too thick. A narrower dimension for the top of the stem would be too narrow to fit the P4's slug exactly, compromising heat transfer.

If I were to improve the AW tower, I might do the following:

- Drill the side holes at an upward angle, not perpendicular, to the tower's long axis. This should make it easier, not that it is overly hard, to run the wire from the bottom of the tower to the LED. This would also lessen the angles that the wire has to negotiate, which would kink the wires less. Realistically, it probably isn't a big deal, especially for stranded, Teflon wire. But it can't hurt either.

- Chamfer the edges where the center channel meets the side holes.

- Roughen the top of the stem to enhance the grip of the thermal epoxy to the aluminum surface.

- Move the threaded hole in the tower's driver board cavity for the ground wire farther away from the center channel. When you attach the ground wire's ring terminal to the tower with the M2 screw, the ring terminal tends to rotate too close to the wires running up the center channel. That bothers me since I don't like any possibility of wire abrasion and shorting out.


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## DM51 (Jan 24, 2009)

Just a reminder to members that the OP posted this in post #10 above:



Kestrel said:


> ... the LED aspect of my question as been covered as completely as possible... I'm going to see about getting this thread moved to the Incan section now...


 In accordance with that post, the thread was moved into the Incan section, where it still is. 

If the topic is to revert again to LED options, the thread probably ought to be moved back to the LED section. Perhaps the OP could give a steer on how he would like the thread to proceed.


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## Kestrel (Jan 24, 2009)

cl0123 said:


> My main goal or wish on going C-cell is to get more run-time on a pair of protected 18650 coupled with WA1111
> ....
> The skinny all-black FM1794 flashlight really "wows" people, probably more so because of its stealthy looks.


Yeah, I was pretty tempted to put together a rechargeable M6 setup, but finding about this body got me really jazzed about the possibility of a poor-man's M6R. Also, the M6 incan runtimes from 2x18650 or 3x17670 didn't excite me.
My thoughts about a skinny build like what you mention was tempting for the same reasons. If folks don't see a big TH on the end, the WOW factor is better, isn't it?:naughty: 


mdocod said:


> Please keep in mind, that moving to a "C" body configuration, while increasing your total runtime, will still require vigilance on your part limiting the continuous runs to keep the heat under control. Using a turbo-head will reduce the heat problem dramatically as it's like having a huge chunk of aluminum to sink heat to, but it can still get oiut of hand...


Thanks for pointing this out, I hadn't thought of the TH doing double duty as a heat radiator. 


cl0123 said:


> The C-to-M adapter was meant to couple a KT-4 to the FM 2C tube. If the KT-2 can accommodate the FM Bi-Pin socket, life would be so good.


Clarence, FM has hinted twice that he will be releasing a TH for this body soon, once in the C-body purchase thread I think, and more specifically, in his 'What to do next?' thread, with consideration given toward his bi-pin adaptors. I'm going to try to wait for that before purchasing a KT-1or2, since it will be HA black like this body, and would probably be styled to match. At least that's my hope. <fingers crossed>


cl0123 said:


> FM's new C-tube just opens up some exciting options that are certainly worth exploring .... I am really looking forward to start on the FM C-Cells products. Challenges to overcome: waiting for the AW C-cells to come back on stock and also finding the right charger gears for them.


My thoughts exactly. As far as waiting for the AW C-cells to be available, the heck with waiting, I'm going to be dropping my M30 in there and running two alkalines or NiMH/NiCads. I'm currently having a tidy little spacer (delrin disk with a press-in stainless steel puck) made to get the length right (this FM body was of course made for the slightly longer AW C LiIons). I've already tried C alkalines out and it is nicer than AA alkalines due to internal resistance issues with the AA's. ~5000 Ah @ 2.4 v (NiCad/NiMH) will kick butt over my current M30/2xAA setup for output and runtime. Even if this is only a temporary solution, I really want to have this option as a backup over the long term. Now, where can I find some 'C' Eneloops...:sigh:
Regarding chargers, there seems to be a couple of possibilities, outside of hobby charger setups. I've seen a picture in a thread somewhere around here of a two-bay Ultrafire charger with cutouts in the plastic so two C's can fit. There is also a thread by LITEMania selling single C LiIon chargers, but for various reasons that isn't ideal either. My /hope/ is that a 2-C capable charger gets released in a few months by the big guys, as I hope the C LiIon is going to increase in popularity as folks want to run higher & higher LED & incan setups. I'm not yet sure what I'll be doing for this.


DM51 said:


> Just a reminder to members .... If the topic is to revert again to LED options, the thread probably ought to be moved back to the LED section. Perhaps the OP could give a steer on how he would like the thread to proceed.


Thanks for the notification. I greatly appreciated reading about the possibilities for LED towers in a turbohead, but I'm thinking the C-capacity of these bodies really lends itself well to new life (i.e. reasonable runtime) for the incan setups. For me, there was (and is) much more for me to learn about the high-output incans. I've learned that a turbohead is great either way. Thanks Clarence for your musings, you are right, there are all sorts of nice possibilities now, at a reasonable price.:thumbsup:

BTW I've already decided upon what's going in my TH when I get one for this body...

I recently ran across an older thread by DM51 comparing Leef-2C and Leef-3C LiIon setups to a stock M6, which may give folks here some more beamshot information with 1111 and 1185, as a Leef-C is of course comparable to an FM-C like this thread deals with. Good stuff:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/185079

Anyway, thanks to everyone for all the good info here.
K


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## naked2 (Jan 25, 2009)

KT1/2 come in both HAIII and black; I've got one in black on the way from Tactical Supply that's going on my FM 2C body. To go inside it, I've got a IMR-M3T on the way from Lumens Factory. :devil:

As far as battery/charging solutions, I got tired of waiting for AW. I bought two of these LiCo C cells from DX, and despite them being unprotected, I'm very happy with them, plus you can't beat the price!  With a FM1794 in a FMD26 socket, they last quite awhile (in 10~15 min. intervals). When the 1794 started to rapidly dim, I removed the cells and immediately checked them with my DMM; one was at 3.2V and the other was at 2.95V, and almost as immediately settled to above 3.1V.

I heard about charging C cells in an UltraFire WF-139 500mA 2 channel charger (same as AW sells), one at a time, without cutting the plastic, by using magnets. I already had this 1 amp 2 channel charger, so I decided to give it a shot. The flat negative end of the cell rests against one of the charger's springs without touching the other one, and with a stack of about 4 or 5 of these magnets, the cell's button top makes contact with the corresponding positive terminal just fine!:thumbsup: It takes about 5.5 hours to charge a cell from around 3.25V to 4.18V (when I pulled the cell as soon as it turned green, that's what it read). If I leave it in for awhile longer, it won't go over 4.22V. Because the charge time is 11 hours total or more, I think I'm going to buy another pair of cells. I also use it to charge 2x IMR16340 with a stack of 20 magnets each, really fast!:devil:


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## Illumination (Jan 25, 2009)

DM51 said:


> I think most of the info is already there, from nzgunnie, Nite and others, and you've worked out a lot of it for yourself too. The SRTH could be hard to find. The KT4 is an M-fitting, so it can't be used with your C-fitting body without an adapter (also hard to find).
> 
> The Surefire KT2 head is a very good thrower, and would be what I would recommend for you. You can get it in HA Nat or BK. It takes the Surefire M3T or M6 compatible LAs: MN15, 16, 20 & 21 (also the M4's MN60 & 61, but they are higher-voltage). Better yet, it will also take the excellent Lumens Factory bulbs for M6 and M3T (including the new IMR ones) and on top of all that choice you could use a Fivemega MN bi-pin adapter with a WA 1111 or WA 1185 (or other) hotwire bulbs, depending on the number of cells you are intending to use.
> 
> The Lumens Factory route is probably the best one to give you the least trouble, as these LAs are designed for Li-Ion cells (LiCo and LiMn, depending on specs) rather than primaries.




Very helpful info. Thanks!!! :twothumbs

This is very hard to figure out from the SF site!


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## jtivat (Jan 26, 2009)

If you really want some throw get an old Surefire 3" T head the smooth version.

Below from left to right an SRTH, T 3" smooth (the best throw I have ever been), T 3" regular, SRTH and KT2.







You can see the head on the left is almost smooth with very little dimpling.


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## cenz (Jan 26, 2009)

jtivat said:


> If you really want some throw get an old Surefire 3" T head the smooth version.
> 
> Below from left to right an SRTH, T 3" smooth (the best throw I have ever been), T 3" regular, SRTH and KT2.
> 
> ...



Thanks your description about old turbohead!... This is the first time I have heard 3"T smooth and regular 3"T are different. I thought they are the same before.

I agree 3"T(smooth) is the best thrower; SRTH is the best hotspot TH.


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## cl0123 (Jan 28, 2009)

JT, 

Great images! Thanks for sharing. So does the 3" T head fit the C or the M threads?

With Aloha, 

Clarence


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## cenz (Jan 28, 2009)

cl0123 said:


> JT,
> 
> Great images! Thanks for sharing. So does the 3" T head fit the C or the M threads?
> 
> ...



hi

Vintage 3"T is for C thread


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## LIGHTSMAD (Jan 29, 2009)

were can i buy a li-lion C cell charger???


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## LIGHTSMAD (Jan 29, 2009)

can someone give me the coupon code for tactical supply to purchase a KT-2 at a discount!!!


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## Justin Case (Jan 29, 2009)

Do you mean Spyder Tactical Supply, www.tacticalsupply.com?

Code, CPF20, 20% discount.

You can find the various CPF coupon codes by searching the Dealer's Corner in the CPF Marketplace.


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## LIGHTSMAD (Jan 29, 2009)

JUST ORDERED THE TURBO HEAD AND RECIVED MY DISCOUNT

THANKS!!!


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## DM51 (Jan 29, 2009)

LIGHTSMAD said:


> can someone give me the coupon code for tactical supply to purchase a KT-2 at a discount!!!


You are reminded about Rule 9, which prohibits cross-posting. You posted this thread, asking the same question. Please do not do this again.


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## cl0123 (Feb 14, 2009)

Hope someone would have better luck than I do as I just found out a couple of days ago that the AW protected C-cells may not come back in any time soon. AW is planning to release the IMR equivalent of the C-cells, but I for one am interested in just something with higher capacity, hence longer run time, since the WA1111 is already plenty bright for my uses. 

Heading off to CPF-search and study on the different possible IMR setups. Anyone has a few must-read threads on the IMR setups in addition to the ones on the stickies? Are 2 IMR-cells going to instaflash a WA1111 bulb? Or is the IMR-M3T the only way to go?

:mecry: I like the peace of mind of using the protected AW cells, and I do not "always" need the super-bright lumens delivered by the IMR bulbs.

With Aloha, 

Clarence


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## DM51 (Feb 14, 2009)

cl0123 said:


> Are 2 IMR-cells going to instaflash a WA1111 bulb?


This is a good question, and it highlights one problem with the IMR cells. With less internal resistance and an ability to tolerate higher currents, there will be less voltage sag with IMR cells than with the equivalent size LiCo ones. Bulbs will therefore be running at higher voltages, and will consequently have shorter lives.

The IMRs charge to 4.20V, the same as LiCo, but there are reports that after a while at rest, they drop off somewhat from that maximum, to ~4.15V (IIRC). I haven't got around to measuring this myself - I think it was mdocod who did that work.

LuxLuthor's Destructive Incan Bulb tests show the flash voltages for hotwire bulbs; for the WA1111 it is 8.3V. So it's on the borderline.


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## lctorana (Jul 7, 2009)

The same question now arises for the new 2x26500 FM body.

Doing a bit of research on CPFMP, google and on eBay, I am fast coming to the conclusion that KT1 and KT2 heads are as rare as rocking-horse $#!t.

And nobody makes an alternative, at any price.

Oh how I'd love to be wrong.


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## Kestrel (Jul 7, 2009)

lctorana said:


> The same question now arises for the new 2x26500 FM body.
> 
> Doing a bit of research on CPFMP, google and on eBay, I am fast coming to the conclusion that KT1 and KT2 heads are as rare as rocking-horse $#!t [...] Oh how I'd love to be wrong.


A couple days ago Justin Case picked up a beautiful SF KT-1 HA for *$50* on CPF Custom B/S/T! I almost crapped a pinecone! Well, figuratively speaking, of course...

BTW, if anybody happened to be interested, I ended up building my FM 2xC body with the SF Turbohead and an LED tower. A great thrower and very efficient on two 'C' alkalines, the thread is here, and includes a fair number of beamshots:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/231533


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## Justin Case (Jul 8, 2009)

I even waited several hours, hoping someone else would save me from spending more money. When that didn't happen, I just had to buy the KT1 TH. I'm planning to use it on one of the new FM 2x26500 bodies and an AW Turbo Tower. I happen to have an unused one sitting around, with a P4 U2SWOH-bin LED and an SOB1000 driver. I will also use the two IMR26500 cells I got in another hot buy I made recently.

For the FM 1x26500 I also ordered, I am thinking of using an IMR26500 with a Malkoff M60.


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## mdocod (Jul 9, 2009)

$50?!!?!???!??!

Pine Cone? Or perhaps a pineapple!


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## lctorana (Jul 9, 2009)

mdocod said:


> $50?!!?!???!??!
> 
> Pine Cone? Or perhaps a pineapple!


Pineapple? There's one of those for sale right now on MP, too...

I can see I'm going to have to tap up a friendly Yank to seend me a parcel soon.


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