# Will surefire ever discontinue their "personal" incan lights?



## GarageBoy (Dec 8, 2009)

The L models are not that much more and get much better brightness to runtime ratio. I can picture them continuing making bulbs, but discontinuing the lights. Your opinions?


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## kelmo (Dec 8, 2009)

In the near term no. Too many old farts around, myself included, who like the simplicity of incans.

Whats in my backpack? An E2e. I prefer this over the latest L1, which sits in storage. 

kelmo


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## computernut (Dec 8, 2009)

I think it'll be quite a long time before all their incans are discontinued. They are pretty good about reusing parts from their incans in their new LED models so it probably doesn't cost them that much to keep selling the older incan models.

I prefer incans, I wish they would just make them all regulated like the A2 so I wouldn't have any reasons to have LEDs.


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## CampingLED (Dec 8, 2009)

Will record players be replaced by CD players???


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 8, 2009)

Luckily if they do I'll still be set. :naughty:


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## Dude Dudeson (Dec 8, 2009)

kelmo said:


> In the near term no. Too many old farts around, myself included, who like the simplicity of incans.


 
Please explain?

How is an incan more simple than an LED?

You've got bulb consumption, filaments that can break from a drop, far more battery rotation (no matter what batteries you're using), pricey bulb replacements, and you consider this to be "more simple"?

PS - I'm no incan hater or anything, I actually intend to own a few high performance incans someday whenever work actually becomes full time again. And that's largely because of what I just typed! (Read, M. O. N. E. Y.)


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 8, 2009)

It just is.

Simple as in positive and negative make contact to a bulb and light comes out.


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## Dude Dudeson (Dec 8, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> It just is.
> 
> Simple as in positive and negative make contact to a bulb and light comes out.


 
Ahh, perhaps we're talking from a modding standpoint? That I could definitely understand...


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 8, 2009)

:thumbsup:


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## kelmo (Dec 8, 2009)

Dude Dudeson said:


> Please explain?
> 
> How is an incan more simple than an LED?
> 
> ...



They are easier to fix. If the lamp blows you replace it. If the batteries die, you replace them. Twisty switches are very robust. The modern LED light is a very sophisticated machine. Multi-levels, regulation circuits, in some instances more moving parts, etc. More potential failure points. I think I've had just as many LEDs (including my L2) sent back for warranty as I have had to replace SF LAs. 3 for both.

I'm not taking into consideration the financial aspect. 

If you run a U2 on high the runtime will not be marginally greater than my E2e IMHO. It will be brighter.


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## DimeRazorback (Dec 8, 2009)

Well they can't really honor a lifetime guarantee if they make incans obsolete...


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## Kestrel (Dec 8, 2009)

DimeRazorback said:


> Well they can't really honor a lifetime guarantee if they make incans obsolete...


The flip side is that they could reduce the staffing of their e-mail customer service department...


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## jp2515 (Dec 8, 2009)

Doubt Surefire will discontinue their incan models. At least for most of the P/C/Z series the bodies, heads and tails are almost the same and the big item that's different is the lamp modules. For the E series, most of the bodies and tailcaps are the same and the LED modules can fit on the incan and vice versa (the head that is). Their incan models are very simple lights. 

Now if only SF would bring back the E Series twisty!  At least they should make it an option. Come on!


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## jp2515 (Dec 8, 2009)

Kestrel said:


> The flip side is that they could reduce the staffing of their e-mail customer service department...



It might also reduce their inventory. In the flip side, SF might lose a little $$$ since they no longer sell incan bulbs. 

However, in my travels to the gun shows, try as the vendors may, people will still buy SF incan bulbs over the P60L or any of the LED modules out today.


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## Dude Dudeson (Dec 8, 2009)

I don't see incans being around all that much longer though.

LED technology is being driven on SO many fronts these days, and for so many reasons.

I of course could be wrong, but I have a pretty strong feeling that any disadvantages of LED today will simply be nonexistent within a decade.

I was one of the CRT computer monitor stalwarts for quite some time due to things like ghosting and contrast ratios. Well you get an entire industry worldwide tackling the issues and what do you get? You eventually get a product that pretty much exterminates the age old tech.

I really think LED is on that track.


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## jp2515 (Dec 8, 2009)

Dude Dudeson said:


> I don't see incans being around all that much longer though.
> 
> LED technology is being driven on SO many fronts these days, and for so many reasons.
> 
> ...



Incorporating LED models seems to be a natural progression. Even then, with all the new LED models out, SF has kept the incan models around such as the CPF favorite, the A2. 

On the other hand, Surefire is working on coming out with the LED models of their weapon lights, the Vampire and a new version of the M3. I guess we will find out what direction SF decides to take once their new models roll out. But there is no denying the sheer power (and modability) of the incan M4 and M6! :devil:


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## Dude Dudeson (Dec 8, 2009)

Yeah, but I've seen the death of so many things by now that I never would have guessed.

The latest and biggest kicker?

The CAN OF COCA COLA. You go into a convenience store or gas station these days and about 90% of the time you cannot find a can of Coke! It's December, and it's snowing around here, I don't want a big 20 ounce bottle, just a 12 ounce can!

If someone even ten years ago had bet me on this happening I'd have laughed in their face, declared them to be on drugs, and quite readily made any monetary bet against it.

Yet the single can of Coke is rapidly becoming a thing of the past - unbelievable!

So I'm definitely not betting on incans staying around...


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## kramer5150 (Dec 8, 2009)

Depends on whether or not their primary customers (government military agencies) continue to purchase / issue them.


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## C-Beam (Dec 8, 2009)

I'll go out on a limb and say when LED tint gets to replicate incan tint, the incan will be phased out.


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## RyanA (Dec 8, 2009)

Even then I don't see it happening. SF has a lot of business with the military. While IR light production is a non-issue for most of us, it is important to have for the military. And as others have said, simplicity. Without the replaceable parts a 6p is basically an aluminum tube, some glass and a switch, there's not much to go wrong there.


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## leukos (Dec 8, 2009)

One thing that could save incans from becoming obsolete is huge improvements in battery capacity. There's a professor at Yale working in nano technology to develop an Li-ion with 10x the capacity of what is currently on the market. SF incans capable of 8-10 hour runtimes would still create a demand for them I'm sure.


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## Dude Dudeson (Dec 8, 2009)

leukos said:


> One thing that could save incans from becoming obsolete is huge improvements in battery capacity. There's a professor at Yale working in nano technology to develop an Li-ion with 10x the capacity of what is currently on the market. SF incans capable of 8-10 hour runtimes would still create a demand for them I'm sure.


 
Not if LED's with identical (or even better) properties than incans appear on the scene.

Your newfound 8 hours of runtime would be far more than that with the LED...


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## Mjolnir (Dec 9, 2009)

Dude Dudeson said:


> Not if LED's with identical (or even better) properties than incans appear on the scene.
> 
> Your newfound 8 hours of runtime would be far more than that with the LED...


There is one thing that LEDs cannot have better properties in: CRI. Incans have the highest CRI of 100, and most LEDs are much lower. 

If you press the switch on your incandescent light and it doesn't turn on, either the filament has broken, the batteries are dead/not both facing the same direction, or the switch has broken. There is no circuitry to fail, and no LED to fry. If it breaks, you just replace the bulb, which is cheap and easy. Replacing an LED isn't. Also, you don't need to worry about an incandescent bulb overheating and becoming damaged.

Most of the people who see no need for incans probably have never seen a high output incan at work. I would much rather have my ROP for outdoor use than my LED lights, partly because it is so bright, but also because it has much better color rendering, and the tint is much more relevant to outdoor colors of green and brown. Of course it will only last about 45-50 minutes with the high bulb, but chances are that I won't need that much light for very long.


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## balou (Dec 9, 2009)

kelmo said:


> They are easier to fix. If the lamp blows you replace it. If the batteries die, you replace them. Twisty switches are very robust. The modern LED light is a very sophisticated machine. Multi-levels, regulation circuits, in some instances more moving parts, etc. More potential failure points. I think I've had just as many LEDs (including my L2) sent back for warranty as I have had to replace SF LAs. 3 for both.





Mjolnir said:


> If you press the switch on your incandescent light and it doesn't turn on, either the filament has broken, the batteries are dead/not both facing the same direction, or the switch has broken. There is no circuitry to fail, and no LED to fry. If it breaks, you just replace the bulb, which is cheap and easy. Replacing an LED isn't.



That point is completely moot, with lights that accept P60-sized dropins at least. You just switch it out. Exactly the same operation, whether it's a LED or an incan.

And yes, a LED driver could fail - but I don't think it's as often as the 50h burn time of a Surefire lamp.


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## DimeRazorback (Dec 9, 2009)

Some valid points on both sides of the fence.

I for one, would be *more* than happy to see both technologies continue on for as long as they possibly can, along side one another.

I love LED's for certain things, and I love incans for other things. Win win if you ask me :thumbsup:


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## RobertM (Dec 9, 2009)

DimeRazorback said:


> Some valid points on both sides of the fence.
> 
> I for one, would be *more* than happy to see both technologies continue on for as long as they possibly can, along side one another.
> 
> I love LED's for certain things, and I love incans for other things. Win win if you ask me :thumbsup:



+1

It's not that one is better than the other. They are both useful for different tasks and situations. A true flashaholic will realized this...

-Robert


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## rje58 (Dec 9, 2009)

Exactly! I was amazed when I got a 9P recently with P91 lamp, outdoors at night! It is so much better outdoors at night than any of my LED lights. Raw lumens / lux is not the issue here...



Mjolnir said:


> Most of the people who see no need for incans probably have never seen a high output incan at work. I would much rather have my ROP for outdoor use than my LED lights, partly because it is so bright, but also because it has much better color rendering, and the tint is much more relevant to outdoor colors of green and brown. Of course it will only last about 45-50 minutes with the high bulb, but chances are that I won't need that much light for very long.


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## Chrontius (Dec 9, 2009)

RyanA said:


> Even then I don't see it happening. SF has a lot of business with the military. While IR light production is a non-issue for most of us, it is important to have for the military. And as others have said, simplicity. Without the replaceable parts a 6p is basically an aluminum tube, some glass and a switch, there's not much to go wrong there.




Consider that Surefire plays in the lofty realm of military contracts. They eat, sleep, and breathe contracts, commitments, and long-term availability. Military equipment must be vetted before it's issued, for the most part, and large-scale rollouts too frequently will cost more money than consumables. So many of their personal incan lights use (or are composed entirely of!) parts from their LED and weaponlight lines, neither of which we've established are going anywhere. This minimizes their financial burden of supporting new production of classics like the E2E (built from the E2L and ScoutLight, basically) and the 6P (built from the 6PL and weaponlight lamp modules) while allowing them to sell lamps at a non-zero profit. Do the C2/3 and M2 come in LED variants yet? I think the L5 is basically a M2 with a dedicated LED head... Why not do it?

Also, turboheads.


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## Dude Dudeson (Dec 9, 2009)

DimeRazorback said:


> Some valid points on both sides of the fence.
> 
> I for one, would be *more* than happy to see both technologies continue on for as long as they possibly can, along side one another.
> 
> I love LED's for certain things, and I love incans for other things. Win win if you ask me :thumbsup:


 
I'd be more happy to see something like I saw with computer monitors - out with the old and in with the new.

Let me make an analogy - not too many years ago I was running both a CRT and LCD computer monitor.

I preferred the LCD for general use, but for gaming the CRT reigned supreme because I couldn't stand ghosting and I demanded high refresh rates.

Then finally LCD's got good enough (and cheap enough) for me to switch 100%. I don't miss the days of juggling between two devices.

Right now (if I had the money that is) I"d really like to have a few incans around for certain uses - of course I'd like to have a few more LED's too, actually a few more in both categories for NO practical purposes too lol!

But I look forward to the day when "That LCD finally replaces the CRT outright"...


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## RichS (Dec 9, 2009)

Dude Dudeson said:


> I'd be more happy to see something like I saw with computer monitors - out with the old and in with the new.
> 
> Let me make an analogy - not too many years ago I was running both a CRT and LCD computer monitor.
> 
> ...


There is one flaw in your analogy of LCD replacing CRT technology - LCD looks every bit as good and even better in most cases than CRT. In the end, the end product "what you see" is better, regardless of the other benefits of the LCD (space savings, etc.). The same does not apply to incans and LEDs. Although LEDs are coming a long way with their warm tint, they still do not produce the light quality you get from an incan. To create an even further separation, SureFire does not use warm tint LEDs in any of their lights yet. 

Once the "product" of a flashlight - quality illumination - is done better by an LED than a tungsten filiment, then we'll talk about how much time is left for incans. Since LED technology has not progressed to that point yet, I think this discussion is premature.

SureFire must think that an incan looks better than any of their LED offerings. Otherwise, why would they use a big incandescent beamshot on their '*Advanced LED Lights*' page (under the 'Product Tours' tab)?

So instead of this:







Why not use a more appropriate image like this for their Advanced LED web page?


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## Dude Dudeson (Dec 9, 2009)

The entire thread topic was about future speculation, not current facts.

I'm not engaging in an "LED vs incan" debate here IN THE PRESENT, I'm talking about if/when LED's evolve to the point where incan becomes pointless.

I do hope that happens, and not over any prejudice against incans - as stated I wish I had a few high performance ones right now!

I could go the reverse route as well - say someone came up with an incan that was as efficient and rugged as an LED, well I'd be all over that too...

I just want the holy grail of lighting, and I don't really care exactly what method gets used - it could be some completely unforseen technology too for all I care.

But my bet is on LED for the 10 to 20 year future.


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## DimeRazorback (Dec 9, 2009)

Dude Dudeson said:


> it could be some completely unforseen technology



This has my bet... I thought it was off topic so I didn't mention the possibilities.


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## Mjolnir (Dec 9, 2009)

The color rendering of incans is both their gift and their curse. The reason they output a full spectrum of visible light is because they output a very wide spectrum of light. A lot of that happens to be useless to us as illumination, but. LEDs give off much more visible light than invisible light, but as a side effect they are lacking in certain areas of visible light as well. The problem is to design an LED that only outputs a specific band of light (visible light), and outputs all of these wavelengths at similar levels (i.e. no blue spike for LEDs). Incans are sort of the brute force approach to this. 
It is akin to shooting something with a shotgun versus shooting it with a rifle. You will probably get at least one hit with the shotgun, but you will be wasting a lot of projectiles. If you shoot that same target with a rifle you will be wasting far less, but the chance of hitting the target will be lower.


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## waxycap (Feb 5, 2014)

I find it humorous that I am commenting on a thread from 2009. Does that annoy anyone? 
But I agree, RichS, the "incan-ish" version looks more inviting.
It is basic color psychology, and the reason why most grocery stores, food manufacturers, and restaurants use warm colors in their signs and
labels to tell you that the food is there for your eating.


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## TMedina (Feb 6, 2014)

And as the earlier posts have noted, the tech is improving.

http://gizmodo.com/led-streetlights-will-change-hollywood-and-make-every-c-1514840416


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## novice (Feb 7, 2014)

The more time that passes since the discontinuing of the SF E-series incans, the more grateful I am that I have several, to use with various bulb options and rechargeable cells, even though I also use my led lights. I have a NOS E2O Outdoorsman making its way through the postal system to me now, and it will be a host for a Fivemega bi-pin adapter with a Streamlight TL-3 bulb. I'm looking forward to checking out the exterior knurling, which is supposed to be more aggressive than that on the Executive series. I'm guessing that the Outdoorsman will take a 17670 cell. I wish AW made 17340 or 17350 cells.


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