# Decostar IRC MR16



## Seth (Feb 1, 2003)

X-CalBR8,

I´ll try to help...

Any place in germany where you found them?

If so, send me a mail / pm and I´ll get them for you.

I looked for them myself in some larger shops, but no avail...

Seth


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 1, 2003)

[email protected]: I looked at those and you are right about the ones that I’m looking for being Osram, but non of the ones on that page have the IR coating. They are normal MR16s. The ones with the IR coating are quite a bit harder to find, even in Europe. Also, the IR bulbs are about twice as expensive.

Seth: I will have to look again. I didn’t bookmark any of the German pages that I found because I don’t speak much German and so it was very difficult for me to try to read the pages. I was friends with a German exchange student in High School and picked up a little German from him, but I only took Spanish as a second language in High School because my school didn’t offer German classes at the time. I will try to find one of the German sites that has this bulb and I will post it if I can find it again.

Thanks for the offers of help guys, it is encouraging. With as many people as there are looking for this particular bulb, hopefully any info we post here will be of help to a lot of people.


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## Seth (Feb 1, 2003)

X-CalBR8:



> Seth: I will have to look again. I didn’t bookmark any of the German pages that I found because I don’t speak much German and so it was very difficult for me to try to read the pages.


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No sweat





I searched for them myself a while ago... and did take no bookmarks either





Right now, I´m tired ( 11:30pm over here and I had to work today... ) but I will ask the almighty Google tomorrow if I can find any bulbs.

Greetings

Seth


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## Klaus (Feb 1, 2003)

The right part numbers are in my original posts where my MR16 based lights were introduced. They should be available in most shops you usually get your bulbs here in germany - expect them to be around 8 to 10 € max.

I would be willing to sent bulbs over but I would encourage a bigger number to save shipping cost.

BTW - there are high efficiency Philips as well and even at more wattages and 8° beams - but I never tested those - the sister co of Osram in US is Silvana - nit shure if they do carry such IRC bulbs as well. The old threads where litled 500 or 100 lumens DIY project for 50 bucks or something

Klaus (who brought these bulbs up)


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## Klaus (Feb 1, 2003)

Old thread 1 1000-1200 lumen rechargeable project light for 50$ 

Old thread 2 Ultimate Nighthunter Dominator Killer 

I do have the Osram spec sheets somewhere on some backup CDR - need to look - but they should still be somewhere on the Osram site too. Oh I just double-checked - the links in the old threads stil work fine and the bulbs data comes up.

Klaus


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 1, 2003)

Klaus: I tried for the Sylvania equivalent, but they only come in a minimum wattage of like 37 Watts & 50 Watts with the IR coating, if I remember correctly. This is just too many watts for 12 NiMh AAs to handle. Maybe you won’t have to send the bulbs all the way from Germany. I’m hoping that someone in England will be able to find some because I would expect the shipping to be much lower from England than from Germany, but since I believe it is a German manufactured bulb, importing from Germany may be my only hope.


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 1, 2003)

Well guys, this may be my best lead yet. After a LOT of searching I found the following site in England which carries what appears to be a Decostar even though it does not mention the brand. The specs are exactly the same as the Decostar though so I think it must be. I sent them an email asking them if they will ship to the United States, but with today being Saturday and all, I probably won’t hear back from them until Monday. This may be just the ticket for anyone living in England that is looking for a source for this bulb. Let me know what you guys think about it. Here is the URL: http://www.thelightbulb.co.uk/product/detail.php?id=934


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## Klaus (Feb 1, 2003)

X-Cal,

not shure where those are manufactured - wait - Made in Germany on box and bulb - anyway I´m not shure if shipping from UK or germany is cheaper - sometimes its not distance but whatever - Rene from Switzerland is shipping to me much more expensive than I am to him, Doug seems to have higher cost shipping from Canada than other people have shippng from the US to me - whatever - PM or email for any help on those.

You might also try the Philips referrenced in my posts if you can get them.

And in any case - those bulbs are worth an effort.

Klaus


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## Jonathan (Feb 1, 2003)

This company in New Zealand makes bike lights using several lamps, including the MR-16 Decostar lamps. I wrote to them and they said that they would ship to the US, but the project ended up on the back burner.

http://www.nightlightning.co.nz/

-Jon


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 1, 2003)

Klaus: I will wait till Monday and maybe I will hear back from that email that I sent to that company in England, but if they are not willing to ship to me then perhaps you could sell me one. I bet the hardest part will be wrapping the bulb in such a way that it will come such a long distance safely. 

I was really hoping that someone would find a source within the U.S., but it looks like that just isn’t going to happen. I expect that Sylvania will eventually offer this bulb here since they already offer the 37 Watt & 50 Watt equivalents but it may take them months or even years before they do, so I can’t depend on that happening. I think I tried to find the Philips bulb about a month ago and didn’t turn up anything. I’m still not 100% sure whether they make a comparable bulb or not but if they do, I was not able to find it. Has anyone else here found one of the Phillips bulbs for sale in the U.S.? Do they even make one of the 20 Watts with the IR coating?


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 1, 2003)

Here is a snippet of information that I found on the Phillips MR16 IR bulb:

“The use of infrared technology in halogen lamp types has been expanded by two manufacturers. Philips Lighting Company has introduced 20 and 50 W MR16 lamps with beam spreads of 10, 24, and 38 degrees. The use of this technology in MR16 type lamps results in up to 30 percent higher candlepower. The lamps utilize aluminized reflectors and have a rated life of 4000 hours and a color temperature of 3200K.”

Looks like this is just the bulb that I need and since Phillips bulbs are sold in the U.S., this bulb should be obtainable here. Now I’ve only got to find a place that sells it. Looks like we’re getting closer and closer.


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## Jonathan (Feb 1, 2003)

I believe that these are the 'Masterline ES' lamps, one of which is described on this page:
http://www.lighting.philips.com/nam/product_database/halogen/displayhalogen.php?id=223

If you find a source for onsies in the US, I'd appreciate it if you post here.

Thanks
Jon


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 1, 2003)

Jon: Thanks very much for the link. I was looking all over their page to find a bulb like that one. Now that I have an exact bulb to look for it should make the task easier. I think they make one like this with an aluminum reflector also if I can find it. I'm not sure which is best, but I would think that the aluminum one might work best in a flashlight. The less glass to break, the better I would think. Of course it may just have an aluminum coating and not be solid aluminum though. Of course, I would be glad to have either bulb at this point. I will see what more info I can dig up.


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 1, 2003)

Here is a site that has them, but it looks like they want you to buy them in a pack of 50! That, of course, is out of the question. Here is the link: http://www.ace-lighting.com/ 

The message board would not allow me to post the full link because it has a parenthesis in the link. Weird, I've never run into that before...


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 2, 2003)

Hi all. I’ve been trying very hard to get a 20W Decostar with IR coating and a 10 Degree beam for a mod that I’m working on but they are practically impossible to obtain in the United States. These bulbs are said to be like 30% more efficient and 30% brighter than a normal MR16 20Watt. This would make it the best possible solution for a battery operated flashlight in this wattage range. 

I've been trying to get one of these in the U.S. for a few weeks now but the only places that I’ve found that have them so far are in England and Germany and they are not willing to ship to the U.S. unless I buy in very large quantities which would cost a small fortune for a bulb this expensive. No company that I’ve contacted in the U.S. is willing to even try to obtain one of these bulbs for me because they all tell me that “it is a European bulb”. Why that should matter, I don’t know, but apparently it does. I thought that perhaps someone that lives in England or Germany might have easy and inexpensive access to these bulbs and that perhaps one of you guys could ship me out one. 

If anyone here knows of a place to get these in the States or a business that would be willing to ship to the U.S., I would love to hear about it. I know that a lot of people have been trying to get these in the U.S. so I thought I would post and see if anyone has successfully obtained one here. Maybe we can get a group buy going or something. Thanks for any help guys.


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## [email protected] (Feb 2, 2003)

X-CalBR8 ,
maybe I can be of help...
If the lamps you are looking for are listed here , I might be able to get them for you at a reasonable price . Shipping to me would be € 5.- to me and maybe another 5 to you.

Please note that the number after the "g" is beam degree, and the number after "d" diameter of the reflector in mm. Decostars are Osram brand.

Hope this helps,


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## Monsters_Inc (Feb 2, 2003)

Hey X-Cal, sorry I just got hold of this thread. I can work something out for ya.

These lamps were requested earlier, but the person ran outta money and had to pull out of the deal.

I'm not entirely sure of firm pricing, but I can porbably get them at close to wholesale. Osram who make Decostar are an Aust company I think, but my sister & her associates are involved in a commerical lighting company in NZ and I'll look into finding a source for these or any other lights you're after and can confirm pricing if you're serious.

[Note: Aust/NZ vs US dollar exchange rates]
Contact via Email: [email protected]


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## Jonathan (Feb 2, 2003)

X-Cal, 

Most MR-16 lamps use a glass reflector with a 'dichroic' coating. This is supposed to reflect most of the white light forward, but let some white and most of the IR leak backward. You can see this in exposed lighting fixtures where the _back_ of the reflector glows a sort of purple color.

Some lamps use solid aluminized reflectors. They are still glass with a mirror coating, rather than solid metal. _All_ of the light gets reflected forward. I think that an aluminized reflector would be better for a flashlight; less heat going back to your hands





-Jon


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## [email protected] (Feb 2, 2003)

Found another (Dutch) site that carries them.




H7 Halogeen Decostar IRC 51MM 12V for €5.97 .





Shipping (to me) is a little more expensive at €10.- though.


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 3, 2003)

Thanks for all the offers of help. It is much appreciated. I still have one last option to exhaust first though. That Phillips bulb should be available in the U.S. and the specs on it do seem to be a little better than the Decostar. The spot is narrower, the bulb life is longer and the color temperature is higher. If these specs can be believed then the Phillips bulb should be the best bulb available. Tomorrow is Monday so I should be able to make some phone calls now that I know exactly what to ask for. If I find out anything useful I will be sure to post the info here so that everyone can benefit. Thanks again for all the help in tracking down this elusive bulb.


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## Klaus (Feb 3, 2003)

X-Cal,

pls let us know what comes up on your search - other CPF community members might be interested too.

TIA

Klaus


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 3, 2003)

Here is the email response that I got from http://www.thelightbulb.co.uk today.

"i have been asked to inform you of the fact that we are unable to export small quantities to the united states. please accept our sincere apologies for not being in the position to help
further.
regards
kevin samworth"

Well, I guess all Americans can scratch that company off the list... And the hunt goes on. I will make some phone calls and spend the next few hours finding a source for this bulb. I really think that the Phillips bulb can be found natively in the U.S.


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## sunspot (Feb 3, 2003)

Please post the Osram part number you want. I have a Daughter in Germany and I can ask here to make some calls.


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## [email protected] (Feb 3, 2003)

I've done some research about the Philips bulb, and it seems to be only available to retailers...
The cheapest I've seen them is almost 11 dollars wholesale.






It might prove cheaper to stick with the Osram...

Any other info is highly appreciated.


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## sunspot (Feb 3, 2003)

Hi [email protected] I made some local calls about six months ago on the Philips bulbs and the price I found was about $19.


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 3, 2003)

Klaus: I just got done reading the thread on the MR16 lights that you were working with and I was very impressed by your work and your ingenuity. I am also hoping to put one of these bulbs in a Mag-Lite when I finally get one. My plan is to use the new 3-To-D adapters that Wayne (ElektroLumens) is working on to easily put 12 NiMh AAs inside of a 4D Mag. It will be kind of a large package compared to the ones that you built, but it will be very easy to do with the new adapters that Wayne is working on. The tricky part is going to be how to get the MR16 bulb to connect to the standard PR base, but I’m sure I will figure out something once I get the bulb. I still believe that I can obtain the Phillips bulb that I’m looking for.


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## Klaus (Feb 3, 2003)

X-Cal,

Mine is the trickiest and simplest at the same time as I remove the complete switch/bulb holder assy - bad part is you need another switch - but you can use whatever you want for the bulb connection.

One guy on the forum lately came up with a direct connect MR16 to PR-base solution - Tater Rocket - I think he soldered the two pins straight into a PR bulb base - some fiddling required I suppose.

For another CPF member I´m right now looking into just putting two leads into an empty PR base and soldering a MR16 bulb holder to it - you need to add a bulb retainer to that setup around the leads though. 

I right now checked option 3 - no space - it seems when you keep the original switch/bulb holder a direct connect solution between MR16 bulb and PR bulb base is the only option then.

Klaus


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 3, 2003)

Yeah, I figure that I will have to do something very similar to what Tater Rocket did. I’ve contemplated trying to solder a MR16 socket to the Mag’s original socket so that I could just plug in a MR16 and be able to easily change out the bulb. I will have to experiment though to see if there is enough room to do anything like that. I will try to come up with something new and innovative, but if worse comes to worst, I can always do what Tater Rocket did and that should be a sure thing. It just won’t be a very easy way to go trying to do such tedious soldering inside of a PR base. 

If Carley were to release one of the high wattage PR adapters like they were considering, I would try to modify one of those to work, but from what different people have said, they no longer intend to do a production run of those adapters. Does anyone happen to know of any similar PR adapter on the market that might be modified to work with a MR16 bulb?


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 3, 2003)

Well, I just got done sending around a dozen emails to various companies from the Phillips “Where To Buy” page. I sent emails to all the companies that, 1. Had a valid web site, 2. Had a toll free number, and 3. Had an email address.

I sent them an email that contained a direct link to the Phillips page where the bulb is located so that there could be no confusion as to which bulb I wanted. It should prove interesting to see what email responses I get back. I’ve already gotten 2 responses. One said that they don’t carry the bulb (no big surprise) and the other said something like, ‘sure we can get you the bulb if you are willing to buy the full 50 pack’. Uh, yeah, right. That’s only like probably $500.00+!!!

Oh well, tomorrow should prove to be an interesting day.


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2003)

Sounds about right to me Dana... Expensive bulbs...(for the type...)


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 4, 2003)

Here is a choice quote from one of the emails that I've got back this morning: 

"Your price for that bulb is $17.37. We would sell this product in full-case quantity so your total cost for 50 bulbs is $868.50."

Only $868.50??... Nice...


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 4, 2003)

Well guys, I’ve got bad news and I’ve got good news.

First the bad news. Looks like the Phillips bulbs are unobtainable. They are super expensive compared to the other brands and I’ve not found a single company that would sell them to me in a quantity of less than 50 at a time. I even called Phillips directly and asked them where I could buy the bulb and they were no help at all and the lady that I spoke to was even somewhat rude to me for asking. She said that they do not sell bulbs directly to the public and she had no access to any records saying what distributor had bought this bulb from them in the past. I even got so desperate as to ask her if they would donate a bulb to me because I’m a college student and I would be using it for “educational purposes” (Hey, it’s worked before). This was also a no go. She said that they didn’t have a policy of helping college students. Oh well.

Now for the good news. Even though the Sylvania IR bulbs on the official web site say that they only carry a 37Watt IR bulb, it may not be entirely up to date. Here is the URL to see for yourselves what they have listed: http://www.sylvania.com/business/halogen/spex.htm#mr16

I called a company today that I’ve been in contact with for a few days now www.lightbulbdepot.com and apparently they were able to track down a Sylvania 20Watt 12Volt ESX/CG IR bulb with a 10 degree beam for $8.75 each in small quantities. I had her double check her facts because I told her that this bulb was not even listed on the Sylvania web site, but she claims that it is indeed an IR bulb. I have to say that I’m still just a tiny bit skeptical, but I had no other way to confirm what she was telling me so I had her order me 2 of them. She said that it was not a bulb that they normally stocked so it would take her about a week to get the bulbs in and they would then be mailed out to me. (I wish I knew where SHE got them from.) Since the store is located in my home state of TN, I should receive the bulbs in probably 2-3 days after that. 

If all goes well, I should have these bulbs in-hand in about a week and a half from now. I will then post as to whether the bulbs are authentic or not. If anyone wants to take a chance and order some of these bulbs before I get a chance to authenticate them, the phone number is 1-800-315-2852. Ask for Doris. The price is $8.75 a piece and that is about what I was expecting them to cost when compared to the European price, so I believe that they have a high chance of being the real deal, even though this bulb does not even show up on the official Sylvania web site. I guess we will all know pretty soon if it is real or not.


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## Josh (Feb 4, 2003)

I have seen IR glass in science supply places will this help you? Sorry I can't remember the name of the site.


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 4, 2003)

Josh: I'm not sure how IR glass by itself could be of use in a mod such as this. I think that the IR coating is on the inside of the glass of the bulb itself. I'm not sure if IR glass could be used externally in any way to help improve the efficiency of the bulb or not.


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 4, 2003)

I just thought I would mention this. I was at my local Super Wal-Mart tonight and to my great surprise, they actually had 2 different MR16 bulbs in stock. Both of them that they had would have been pretty much useless for a flashlight because they were both floodlights, but I was surprised to even see them there at all. In case anyone is curious, they were both way overpriced to be normal non-IR MR16s. I guess MR16s are a little more common of a bulb than I had previously thought.


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## sunspot (Feb 5, 2003)

MR16's are very common. Lowe's has many of them in flood and spot. It is not stated what the beam angle is on the packages.


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 5, 2003)

Here is an interesting new update. I seem to have actually found a company that can supply the Phillips bulb. Of course, you would only want to get it if money was no object and you just HAD to have the very best MR16 bulb out there because the cost is nearly 2X-3X the cost of the very similar Osram Sylvania bulb. This is probably because the Phillips bulb is a very new release according to the woman that I spoke to at Phillips. I expect this bulb to get cheaper in a year or two. If anyone out there has deep enough pockets to buy this bulb and do a direct comparison with the Decostar/Sylvania bulb, I would love to hear the results. That 2 degree tighter spot should make it throw quite a bit further for one thing. Here is the web site that has the Phillips bulb although it does not seem to be listed on their site anywhere that I could find: http://www.allightinginc.com/

Here is an exact copy of the email that I received from them today:

“Good morning,

I got an answer finally. The 20mrc16/irc/sp-8 12v would be $17.00 each, plus shipping. I would need your city and zip code to determine UPS charges.

Let me know if you want some, we take MasterCard and Visa. We only ship UPS so we would need a street address for shipping.

Have a great day!”


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## Josh (Feb 6, 2003)

the whole time I was thinking infra red mr 16's


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 6, 2003)

I just got a confirmation email from www.allightinginc.com/ that they can sell individual Phillips bulbs. I thought that they could from the last email that they sent me but I wanted to confirm it to be sure. Looks like people living in the United States that want an IRC MR16 bad enough can get one here but the price for the Phillips bulb is a little over 2X the price of the Sylvania/Decostar. From the specs though, it would appear that it is the better bulb, by a small margin, so maybe it’s worth the extra money, if you can afford it...


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 17, 2003)

Yay!









I’ve been looking for these bulbs for months and the search is finally over! I can hardly believe it guys! The bulbs that I got from www.lightbulbdepot.com are REAL Osram Decostar IRC MR16’s! They are NOT some American Sylvania equivalent, they are the real, authentic, “Made in Germany” Decostars that EVERY other major U.S. light bulb company that I talked to (and I talked to a LOT of them) told me could not be ordered from within the United States because it is a “European Bulb”. I guess the other idiots from the other companies did not know what they were talking about because this company got them for me with no problems for just a hair bit more than what they normally sell for in Europe! In fact, I even saw some places in Europe that sold this bulb for quite a bit more than what I paid for them.

Here is the info for this bulb straight off of the box: Energy Saver Osram Decostar 51 (any ideas what the 51 stands for???) IRC 20W. Here is the part number from the box: 20W 12V 48860 SP GU5.3 10°.

This bulb has the Infrared Coating as well as the Ultraviolet Stop so it should be safe on the eyes to look at the light that it produces for long periods of time without worrying about getting cataracts from UV radiation, unlike some of the more unsafe bulbs out there. I was happy that it had that little extra feature included. 

Now it’s time to do some experimentation and come up with some ingenues new way to mod one of these into my 4D Mag that will be running on 12 NiMh AAs in series once Wayne’s 3 to D adapters arrive on the scene. I can hardly wait!


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 17, 2003)

Ok guys, here is the info that everyone in the U.S. will need to order this great bulb from this company. The web address is: www.lightbulbdepot.com The phone number to call is: 1-800-315-2852. Ask for Doris because she was the one that was able to find them for me and she will be familiar with what you are looking for and should save some time in finding this elusive bulb. She told me that she had access to many more of these so supply should not be a problem. Here is the part number that she went by on this bulb and is probably what you should use in inquiring about this bulb: “10° ESX/CG IR”. She said that’s all the info that they gave her when she was trying to track this bulb down so that’s probably what she will go by when you put in an order with her. 

The price is only $8.75 each + shipping which is via UPS so be prepared to get ripped on the shipping. I got charged $7.71 for shipping (almost the price of another bulb!). It still beats international shipping though in most cases. This same package could have been sent for under $4.00 via USPS 2-Day Priority AirMail because these bulbs weigh almost nothing, but that’s a huge company for you. If enough people out there want this bulb, it would probably save everyone a lot on shipping to do a huge group buy and then redistribute them via a cheaper shipping method than UPS. I think she said that if you order a lot of bulbs in the same order that you can get a quantity discount to, so it may be worth checking into.


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## Klaus (Feb 17, 2003)

Good job X-Cal - those are the right bulbs - and the 51 is the dia in mm






Klaus


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 17, 2003)

I just called Doris at Light Bulb Depot to ask about a quantity discount on this bulb and she said that for an order of around 20 bulbs they would be $8.25 each and for an order of 100 bulbs they would be $6.95 each. I just thought I would get and post this info in case anyone was considering doing a big group buy or anything. I'm still not really sure how many people at present are seriously considering buying this bulb for mod projects. I have a feeling that this bulb’s popularity will skyrocket though once Wayne’s 3 to D adapter is officially released at the end of the month.


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 17, 2003)

Klaus: Thanks for the info on the "51". I should have known that. My brain must be half asleep today. I can hardly wait to do some of the same sort of great mods that you have done with this bulb.


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## Klaus (Feb 17, 2003)

Thx





Klaus


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 17, 2003)

I just happend upon a PDF file that tells more about the Decostar line of bulbs and even has the specs listed for this bulb. Here is the URL: http://www.osram.com/pdf/service_corner/irc_family.pdf


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 17, 2003)

Well, I’ve done some number crunching and this is what I came up with for an approximate brightness level for this bulb. The specs say that this bulb puts out up to 24 Lumens per Watt so at 20W, that comes out to 480 Lumens and that’s at the rated 12Volts. When you take into account that this bulb is being overdriven by quite a bit on 12 NiMh AAs, that brings this bulb’s brightness level to somewhere close to 600 lumens! Wow, that’s a lot of light!

I’m pretty confident that these numbers are correct to because I just jury rigged the new bulb up to 12 NiMh AAs and it appears to be about 5-6 times as bright as my PT Surge which is rated at around 100 Lumens. Just imagine, the power of 5-6 Surges all wrapped up into a 4D Mag-Lite, I can hardly wait!


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## Klaus (Feb 18, 2003)

X-Cal,

my calculation (in the old thread) shows initial brightness of upto 1000 lumens at ~ 14-15V - going lower to around 750 lumens for most of the runtime and closer to 500 lumens against the end of the discharge.

Keep in mind though that the 35W bulb is even more efficient











Klaus


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## [email protected] (Feb 18, 2003)

I just ordered some Nimh's in Wit's end's group buy thread








This opened up the possibility for me to power an MR16 bulb.



The IRC's are easy to get for me, but finding the Philips ES is a bit more difficult...




what is the cheapest source in Europe? I'd like to try them, given their narrower beam.

I am going to have some fun I think...


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 18, 2003)

Klaus: Wow! I knew that my numbers were a very conservative underestimate but I really had no idea that the 20W was putting out that kind of light output. Are you sure those are the numbers for the 20W and not the 37W? If the 20W really is putting out that much light then that would make it nearly 10x more powerful than my Surge. Amazing.


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 18, 2003)

I ordered a couple of MR16 ceramic sockets with leads last night that should make some of these mod ideas that I’m having easier to carry out. I’m just curious, have any of you guys tried using MR16 sockets in any of your flashlight mods yet or do you usually just solder them in place? I’m concerned about soldering MR16s because the leads on them get so hot that I’m concerned that it might just melt the solder like the PT Surge is capable of doing. What do you guys think about using MR16 sockets?


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 18, 2003)

[email protected]: Glad to see you getting in on the fun to.



It's really a shame that those Phillips bulbs have to be so expensive. I wanted to get them to because they seem to be a better bulb (at least on paper). I think they are made in the USA and even here they are 2x-3x as much as the Decostars are. If they are indeed made in the USA then you can expect them to be even more expensive where you live. I think it's because they are so new and they are not being mass-produced yet. I fully expect them to half in price within a year or so.


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## Ross (Feb 18, 2003)

Hi X-CalBR8 & folks

I;ve got this mod planned as well, going to be boring out my 2D mag on a friends lathe and fitting 12 AA 2000mah in the handle, then buy a heatsink from Elektrolumens, a ceramic MR16 socket (which i think is much more sensible and will enable easy soldering to a PR base and make changing the lamps easier) with the leads from Maplin (like Radio Shack I think) and hopefully it should all go together, I was inspired by Klaus's original mod, especially the INCRERDIBLE beamshot you took Klaus - absolutely amazing!! Could you post it again!!!


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## Klaus (Feb 18, 2003)

Its still in the old thread - and I think the MR16 sockets are the way to go






This pic ? (The small is a tuned Mag 2D ~ 25lu)






Or this



The small ones are 25 to 60 lumens

Klaus


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 18, 2003)

Here is a very inexpensive place to get MR16 ceramic sockets if anyone needs them. This is where I got mine from last night. They buy from companies that have overstock or are going out of business so they have a lot of random electrical stuff but at very cheap prices. It’s kind of like an electrical version of Big Lots. Here is the URL for the MR16 ceramic socket: http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=320400&item=QRX-4&type=sto re

If anyone finds a MR16 socket that is significantly smaller/thinner than this one then please post a link to it because this is one of the smallest ones that I could find and it is still a little larger than what I was hoping for. On the bright side though, it is ceramic so this little sucker is NOT going to melt!!!





Klaus: Thanks for reposting those beam shots. When everyone here sees how much butt one of these MR16s kicks, it might encourage others to give this great mod a try. I’m anxious to share ideas with others on the best way to proceed on this mod. I hope to be able to pick up some ingenues new ideas that I’ve not yet considered that could make this mod easier/better/more durable. 

Bowser: Have you checked Radio Shack to see if they even carry MR16 Sockets? I’ve not ever noticed them there but then I’ve not specifically looked there yet either. BTW, glad to see another person on board for this little MR16 flashlight adventure.





I really think there will be a landslide of interest in this project once Waynes “3 to D” adapters are officially released at the end of the month. That will help solve one of the biggest technical hurdles to this mod, that being, how to get 12AAs, wired in series, inside of a Mag (or other metal flashlight) in a way that is reliable and won’t short out.


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## [email protected] (Feb 18, 2003)

I can get these for €1.80...


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 18, 2003)

BART: Do you have the dimentions for that socket? I can't really tell the size very well by the picture. Too bad they didn't include a ruler or a coin in that picture so that it would be easier to judge the size of it. How many Millimeters thick is it?


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## [email protected] (Feb 18, 2003)

Sorry, no further information about it.




I'll try to find it in a local shop this week and measure it up...


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## Ross (Feb 18, 2003)

thats the ones!!! Thanks Klaus

one day....if I try REALLY hard....


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 22, 2003)

Well, I got the MR16 ceramic sockets in today and while the depth was perfect, the width was a little too much. I did get an insert from All Electronics with my order though that mentioned a new MR16 socket that they are carrying now that looks a lot like the one that Bart mentioned. The price is $1.50 each and the part number is: LS-4. The item is so new that it is not yet listed on their web site, but they give you the option of buying an item from them strictly by part number so that’s what I will do. I will try ordering a couple of these and see how they work out and then I will get back to you guys.


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 26, 2003)

I just thought I would take a few minutes to relate a very funny story that happened to me a couple of days ago with my new MR16 bulb. 

I’ve got my new Decostar MR16 jury-rigged so that I can show it off to people before it gets placed into it’s permanent home in my 4D Mag-Lite. Anyway, my cousin came over and paid me a visit a couple of nights ago and I told him, “man, have I got something that you’ve just got to see” and I showed him my new 20Watt MR16. His reaction to seeing it all lit up was, with a look of total shock on his face, and I quote, “Good Lord that is a bright light”!!! LOL. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have to say that I laughed so hard that I almost dropped the bulb, batteries and everything. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a shocked expression on his face in my entire life. It was priceless. I really have to say that that was truly a Kodak moment. That one experience made all the immense amount of trouble that I had to go through in order to obtain one of these bulbs all worthwhile. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 26, 2003)

I think I somehow missed posting this link earlier, but this is the spec sheet on the Phillips IRC bulb. I thought I would post it in case anyone was considering giving the Phillips bulb a try. I might just try it someday in spite of the higher cost because it is supposed to be a better bulb. Here is the URL: http://www.lighting.philips.com/nam/product_database/halogen/displayhalogen.php?id=223


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## Klaus (Feb 27, 2003)

LOL @ X-Cal, 

I typically get a kind of "where is the car behind that light" expression 

Klaus


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 27, 2003)

Klaus: Playing with these mods sure can be a lot of fun, eh? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif BTW, I like your new signature line with those awesome beam shots in it. I just noticed it. That gives the rest of us something great to aspire to. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## LEDmodMan (Apr 2, 2003)

Interesting tidbit for anyone who wants to place an order for these Decostar bulbs with LightBulbDepot. The 800 number that X-cal listed before routes you to the closest store they have, so you will probably not talk to Doris. The woman I talked to (DeLores) in Dallas was very helpful and is going to call me back when she has more information (I told her it might be helpful to get a hold of Doris in TN).


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## Nerd (Apr 2, 2003)

I've manage to get my paws on some IRC Osram MR16 bulbs.. They come in 10 degrees, 24 degrees, 38 degrees version and also 20 watts, 35 watts, 50 watts.

I don't mind helping those who want the above bulbs get it and shipping it to them, but paypal sucks at USD-SGD conversion. So payment is a PITA (Pain in the ***). If anyone can come up with a good suggestion, why not?

Btw the 20 watts and the 35 watts are only available if I have orders of 20 or more for each of the models.


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## X-CalBR8 (Apr 2, 2003)

Sorry about that. I had no clue that they routed the calls automatically like that. For the record, I spoke to Doris in the Nashville branch of the store. If there is any confusion at all in obtaining this bulb, your best hope is to refer whatever salesman that you get in touch with to Doris because she knows the exact bulb that you are looking for because of our lengthy verbal exchange on the subject. Good luck to everyone trying to obtain this elusive bulb and let us all know how it worked out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## X-CalBR8 (Apr 2, 2003)

Klaus: Hey buddy. Just wondering if you are still following all of this. I have really enjoyed reading all of your previous posts on this subject and I was just curious if you have tried anything new with the Decostars lately. Thanks again for all of the great info that you have contributed on this project up till now. I would probably have never went this route if not for all of your great contributions on the subject in the past. Thanks again! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## LEDmodMan (Apr 2, 2003)

I'm a happy camper... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I placed my order with LightBulbDepot, and I now have 2 20w Osram Decostar bulbs on the way along with a ceramic MR-16 holder as well!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif The holder is 3/8" thick and 5/8" in diameter, so pretty small and it has sheilded wire leads on it for heat resistance. Delores here at the Dallas store was able to find the bulbs as well. She says they're getting them through a supplier in Florida who has about 18 currently on hand (2 less now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ). If you want these, better get them quick...

Thanks for all your help X-Cal!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## X-CalBR8 (Apr 2, 2003)

LEDmodMan: No problemo. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Glad that I could be of help. Make sure and keep us up to date on your mod. I would be very interested to hear about how it turns out. I'm especially interested to know how well that socket works on this project because I started to order one just like it. To me that is the most difficult part of this mod is the electrical connection from the bulb to the Mag.


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## dano (Apr 3, 2003)

Hmmm...I've wondered about those types of lamps...This combo would make a great duty light, if the lamp is durable enough...My rusty wheels are now moving....Help us all! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif


--dan


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## Klaus (Apr 3, 2003)

X-Cal - yes and no - I haven´t been following the thread on a daily basis - but here I am again - and thx for the kind words /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

But back to business: Some issues which came up lately mostly regarding heat related to the extended use of the MR16 bulbs I think I might share:

We discussed the direct soldering of MR16 bulbs to PR bases to be able to use them in the standard Maglite or equivalent sockets - seems to be a NO as the heat generated by these bulbs on the back side is well above the melting point of standard solder - so be careful out there.

Regarding heat and MR16 bulbs - the typical standard MR16 bulb is trying to have a "cold beam" in relegating most of the heat transfering IR portions to the backside - this is what creates the undesired heat-up effect of the flashlight itself one is experiencing using such bulbs. There are special "warm beam" bulbs like the Osram "Aluminum" version which does transmit the IR out of the bulbs front and stays much cooler on the backside - unfortunately this "Alu" version isn´t available in the high-efficiency IRC flavour (yet?) and I decided to better have the high efficiency output and work around the heat problems somehow - the heat was the reason for the neopren cover I used on the first prototyp.

One "trick" I used was to cover all the back of the bulb with multiple layers of almuminum foil to built up some barrier against the IR beams - which certainly helped a bit. The guy working on the 24AA chassis for the 1h/35W beast is experiementing with special heat resisting epoxy to built up a barrier / shielding between the bulb and the flashlight body - we´ll see how that goes.

Another idea which came up lately is to use high temperature resisting color spray like used to paint car/bike exhausts to cover the back of the bulb in the first place - the specs of such colors is well inside the limits of what the MR16 bulbs would typically reach. Those spray colors are typically available in black but recently also white and silver colors have been spotted. I suspect the white / silver to work even better as it will also limit the "mechanical" transmission of heat better as the black color will take and distribute heat better than white / silver. I didn´t tested this yet but might try soon and I´ll keep you posted on how that goes.

Another little "trick" I found lately is an even better / cheaper / lighter version of the charger - it will still require some DIY or ready-bought NiMh/NiCd charger circuit (IC based or whatever) able to handle the multiple cells for optimal charging but the power supplied to it was a little bit of a problem. I originally used an AC Power supply I had lying around from an older US Robotics modem (remember you ´ll need around 20V DC to charge 12 cells in series) - this worked quite well after adding a AC-DC transformer to the charging circuit - the next step towards a 1h fast-charger for the 24AA (12x2) setup was a 100W+ 24V Power-Supply designed for low-voltage halogen lamps which also needed some AC-DC conversion and gave me sustained 4A charge currents for that setup - but is quite huge/heavy and therefor not as nice for travelling / camping etc.

The latest now what I came up with are the later quite small powersupplies used by recent NoteBooks - by accident I found that at least most of the ones I looked at recently which use LiIons cells in the Notebook do supply around 20V DC and around 60W (might be anywhere from 50 to 100).

Now I didn´t tried this yet but I will soon - in theory such a power-supply will directly charge 12 cells (no AC-DC conversion, 20V is fine too) with or without smart charger and at 60W will give you a max of 3A charging current - so plenty of headroom to charge 12AA or A cells at 1C. Such Notebook powersupplies might be quite cheap at Surplus stores or even for free when taken from dumped Notebooks. Specs to look for would be around 50W or more and 20V DC or more - whats nice is that those parts are typically quite light and small, would accept AC input from 100 to 250V and be usable worldwide - and due to high volume of the original target market be quite cheap too. 

And again this are just my 2 €cents 

Klaus


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## Rothrandir (Apr 3, 2003)

wow klaus...

whould your charging mechanism work for 12 2100mah nimhs or 1000mah nicads in series?

i am in the process of building a 50w 10degree irc, and would really like the ability to charge the batteries withough taking them out of the light.

i found several chargers that would work, but all are $80 or more, and this is my only rechargable tool...

if you know of anything at a reasonable price, please let me know.

x-cal, sorry to hijack your thread btw.


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## X-CalBR8 (Apr 3, 2003)

"x-cal, sorry to hijack your thread btw."

Rothrandir: No problems here. I've always been a very firm believer (and respecter) of free speech. You will certainly not offend me by speaking your mind, whether it be considered hijack, offtopic or whatever. Besides, I'm very happy to see more people getting into this project and contributing input and ideas on it so hijack all you like. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## X-CalBR8 (Apr 3, 2003)

Klaus: Hey. Thanks for sharing all the great new ideas. As usual your great creativity has rubbed off on me and inspired me to come up with a few new ideas as well. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

So far as dealing with the heat issues, I really like the idea of using a spray on substance to reflect back the IR radiation. That reminded me of a spray that I saw a few years back in an automotive catalog. I think they called it something like spray on chrome. I remember that it was used to cover rusted places on motorcycle chrome tailpipes. I figure if it can stand up to the sort of heat produced by a motorcycle tailpipe then this bulb should not pose it too much of a challenge. I’ll see if I can find it again and post back when I find some more info on it.

I really like your idea of using a special charger for the 12AA battery pack to. I had planed on going the easy route and using Wayne’s 3-To-D adapters when they come available and just doing the whole project in a 4D Mag-Lite, but the more I think about it, the more I like your approach of building a single battery pack and putting the whole thing in the much more compact package of a 2D Mag-Lite even if it does mean a lot more work to accomplish it. I just like the idea of that powerful of a light in such a very compact package. The only reason that I was kind of hesitant before was the whole building a special charger issue, but it looks like you’ve pretty well got that issue nailed down for us. Plus there is another benefit to going this route as well. It is much much easier to charge a single battery pack than to charge 12 individual AA batteries.

Again, thanks for sharing all the great new ideas. Now I have a lot of new stuff to ponder. I’m already having a lot of fun showing this light off and it is not even completed yet! I can just imagine the fun that I will have with it once it is a completed, professional looking package. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## X-CalBR8 (Apr 3, 2003)

Wow, have a look at this "Zinc Aluminium Aerosol Spray". http://www.decoratingdirect.co.uk/viewprod/s/SIRZINALUS/

Looks like that stuff would fit the bill perfectly. Too bad I don't live in the UK. I'll see if I can find an American equivalent or something similar and hopefully, less costly.


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## Rothrandir (Apr 3, 2003)

that stuff looks pretty good!
i will likely make a piece of metal to go behind the reflector and aid in centering and extra heatsinking also.

i plan on putting a plug in the tailcap. it would reduce water resistance, but be much easier to use.

i'm wondering if there is some sort of diode to put between the batts, it shouldn't be too problematic charging 6 at a time right?

both nerd and minjin have helped me out a lot on this, i couldn't have done it withought them.


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## Nerd (Apr 3, 2003)

Yoh Roth, no problemo, just don't forget to be careful. 12 AA 2100nimhs and 50 watt IRC bulb sounds like the perfect pipe bomb in a 3D package. ;p


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## X-CalBR8 (Apr 3, 2003)

I like the idea of making the light rechargeable without having to remove the battery pack. Making the negative connection would be very easy, but figuring out an easy way to make the positive connection would much more tricky. I wonder how the Mag Charger does it and if it would be an easy method to duplicate?


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## Rothrandir (Apr 3, 2003)

how about useing the negative spring for negative contact, and runing a wire down the battery pack that is soldered to the top if the pack and run it down between the cells for the positive.


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## X-CalBR8 (Apr 3, 2003)

I think routing the positive wire through the flashlight without encountering a short would be the most difficult part. One tiny short with that much power behind it and you would weld a nasty hole through your Mag-Lite and would most likely ruin your batteries to unless you catch the short almost instantly. I still have to wonder how the Mag-Charger accomplishes this safely. Since I don't happen to own one, I don't have a clue how it is accomplished. With all of the danger involved, perhaps it is not the best idea to try to charge the batteries while inside the flashlight after all unless a really safe method can be thought up for routing the positive connection without it grounding on the main flashlight body.


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## X-CalBR8 (Apr 3, 2003)

Maybe you could get one of those plastic wire-pass-throughs like they use to route wires through walls in buildings and since it is plastic, it should protect the wire very well from grounding out on the flashlight body. That way you could pass the positive wire right through the center of the tail cap with no danger involved at all. Of course you would want to use some sort of sealant on it so that it would remain water resistant but I think this could work and work safely. What do you think?


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## Illuminated (Apr 3, 2003)

I recently received promotional self-recoiling ethernet patch cable from a vendor, and noticed that it had a flat 4-conductor cable on it. Works sort of like a double-ended tape measure. Not sure what the wire guage is - 20 ga. maybe, but there are 3 or 4 conductors and each is twisted strands - not the spiral wrap/nylon core like used in high-flex telephone and other comm cords.

Haven't checked yet, but it might be thin enough to pass between a D-cell and the body ID. Conductors *could* be used in parallel for current capacity if needed.

I've seen these things frequently as of late, so I imagine they're inexpensive and commonly available. Might work for the charge wiring.

John


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## X-CalBR8 (Apr 3, 2003)

"It might be thin enough to pass between a D-cell and the body ID."

That's definitely good info to know and I might just have a use for something like that on another project that I'm working on, but in this particular project, the thickness of the wire should not even be a limiting factor because When you build the 12AA battery pack, there will be enough room down the center of the AA batteries to pass a very heavy gauge wire right down the middle and right out the end cap. To demonstrate what I'm talking about just put 4AA batteries together and look at the size of the hole in the middle of them when they are lined up perpendicular to each other. The more I think about it, the more I think that this might actually be doable. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Klaus (Apr 4, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*Rothrandir said:*
whould your charging mechanism work for 12 2100mah nimhs or 1000mah nicads in series? - 50w 10degree irc, 


[/ QUOTE ]

Shure will - for some charger basics you might consider going through my old threads - short on time and too lazy to rewrite everything - sorry.

But just for short: To charge a string of cells you need around 1.5 to 1.6V x N where N is the number of cells - so 12 x 1.5 ~ 18V - it alwas can be a bit more so 20V is fine and will still work (I think) when using a smart charge circuit which drops a bit voltage too. 

When using just a DC power source you basically just connect the source to your string of cells and either need to limit the current properly or your power supply does this on his own - just measure it when hooking up empty cells which draw the most current as the internal, resistance is lowest then. Don´t charge with more than the actual max capacity of your cells (this is named 1C) or around 1.2C to make up for some loss -this would be around 2.1A to 2.3A for your 2100mah cells. When using no smart charging circuit you need to be VERY careful not to overload the cells in monitoring cell voltage and/or temperature rise - plenty of good reads on the web for in-depths of this. 

This is a poor-mans charger design which works quite well - but after you ruined some of your expensive high-cap NiMh cells you certainly will consider adding a smart-charge circuit. Some other notes on this: Using NiCds is less critical for overcharging them - using whichever (NiMh / NiCd) its also less critical to use C/10 charging currents - in this case you charge with just arounf 1/10 of the cells capacity but charge for around 12 hours - this greatly reduces the risk of overcharging the cells. Without a smart charger you always need to discharge the cells properly so you have a reference point to calculate your proper charge time.

I later added a DIY smart charge circuit based on the older TEA 1101 chip - after some modification - (from which my self-proclaimed nickname of IC slaughterhouse champ rooted as I burned up a truckload of those chips befor I found the right way to modify the circuit not only to accept 12 instead of 10 cells which was quite easy but to charge at a max rate of 4A instead of 1A - which was quite a challence) this circuit is working quite nicely. This DIY kit is only available in germany AFAIK so I have no good idea for you guys in the US on this. I´m shure there should be DIY smart charge circuit around on the web somewhere and initially I tried to create some CPF project on such a smart charger but was left mostly on my own on this - but still with more people joining in on such a project and others too realizing the benefit of in-flashlight charging this might get some more input and discussion ? I´m very much willing to share what I did so far .....

Besides the newer ref of this chip, the TEA1102, will also charge SLA´s and LiIons - so a CPF project DIY smart charger for NiMH, NiCd, SLA and LiIons at approx 10 USD cost might be some nice future project IMO. I can jump-start things with some reference design for the TEA1102 from Philips - but my DIY ability and electronic design capability is hmmmm less then it sometimes seems (as prooven by my nickname) - so other people would need to chim in.

But back to the charger issue - so basically there are some low cost choices and some "smarts" can be added too.


Summary:

Any >20V AC charger as often found with external modems can be modified to DC output using just a bridge rectifier (I only kind of remember the name) needs to be used - just a 1-2 USD part actually. Just this and just measure what current flows with empty cells - if too much just add a resistor until you reach the proper max current. On one design I aded a switch to add another resistor to choose betwen 1C and C/10 currents for 1hour gast charge and 10 hou slow charge.

For added nicety and security add a smart charge circuit - either DIY or bought off-the-shelf - the power source still has the same specs / needs - possibly you need slightly higher Vin when the circuit drops to much by itself.

Another low-cost power supply was found in the low-voltage halogen area (wehere the Mr16 comes from too) - there are 24V AC power supplies for that purpose which like above can be easily modified to DC - again here the higher volume makes these quite cheap.

The latest and best seems those Notebook power supplies - look for 50W + and 20V+ DC and you are set for a start - hopefully we can add a nice DIY CPF smart charger anytime soon.

And if you want to use a 50W IRC bulb I **guestimate** using 12A or AA cells at 2100ma will in theory give you 1/2h runtime but the voltage drop will be too high resulting in too low coltage and a yellow bad beam. You would be running the cells at 2C which the NiMhs can supply but only at a too high drop for satisfying results. Using 12 cells I still consider ~20W/25W to be max and if you want 35W or 50W bulbs either go with 12x2 cells or higher cap cells like C/D, or NiDs cells which have a lower voltage drop by design - or go with the RC cells which should have a lower voltage drop too. There are developments of high-drain NiMh cells but I haven´t followed this recently. There also will be differences between different NiMhs cells too - my favored Sanyo cells do seem to show a higher-than average voltage drop so possibly using other cells you might get a better result and a 35/50W bulb might run OK - but I would doubt it.

Oh and as was mentioned there are nice chargers on the market which can supply high currents with a dial for the number of cells (while 12 is kind of exotic) and nice bells and whistles typically out of the RC area - but if those would met all criteria described above they would run quite high in price and I personally didn´t wanted to spent that much.

DIY Charge circuit - german only 

TEA1102 Data Sheet with test circuit 

And there seem to be a bunch of ICs too from the same companies where most of the LS driver circuit ICs are coming from and it **seems** to me that the charger circuits are not too much different from the driver circuits - but again I´m not the right person to design such.

Oh my - again too much typing already ...... sorry for the typos

Klaus


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## LEDmodMan (Apr 18, 2003)

Update:
Got my bulbs now, and they are white, white, white!!! Very nice. Can't wait to get them into the light. Thanks everyone!


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## X-CalBR8 (Apr 20, 2003)

LEDmodMan: Glad to hear the good news. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I thought that you would be pleased with them. They really are top notch bulbs. Make sure and give us all an update once you've created something cool with them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## LEDmodMan (Apr 21, 2003)

Will do!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif It won't be for awhile, as I will be on multiple business trips and a vacation between now and mid-July without much time in between. Will post when it's done!


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## itsme1234 (May 8, 2003)

Klaus: do you know the part number or name for the ceramic socket for MR-16 (in german, for Conrad) ?
Thanks.


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## Klaus (May 8, 2003)

"Fassungen für Halogenlampen" Seite 633 unten rechts

#58 17 80 and #58 23 95 look similar to the ones I´m using

Klaus


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