# garage lighting



## stevek1972 (Mar 22, 2008)

i was just wondering if i can get some help and what type of lighting and how much lighting i would need for my garage. i detail cars and need a lighting set up that will show every little paint defect there is on the car. any and all help well be greatly appreciated.

thank you,
steve


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## Ken_McE (Mar 23, 2008)

:welcome: For your benches, equipment, and supplies, four-foot T-8 Flourescent fixtures should do nicely. For the vehicle itself you'll need something powerful that has a high color rendition index. What do other shops use?


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## stevek1972 (Mar 23, 2008)

shops use flourecents as far as i know. and what kind of light would be powerful enough and have a high color rendition index? i know nothing about lights so if you try to give me advice you will have to really break it down. sorry and thanks


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## turbodog (Mar 23, 2008)

Go to home depot. The light guy will know what a 4 foot t8 fixture is.

In simple terms, it's 4 feet long and hold 2 or 4 4-foot bulbs. The t8 designator means 8/8 or 1 inch diamter bulbs. These are the new style. They are instant on, no flicker, and even more energy efficient than the older style.

A 4 bulb fixture will output TONS of light. Buy the bulbs with whatever color rendition you want. The cool white (4100k or so) are typical and look like what you have come to expect from fluorescent bulbs.

I'd space a 4' 4 bulb unit about every 8 feet or so, and run them parallel to the car(s). Tons of light.....


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## stevek1972 (Mar 23, 2008)

turbodog: will that set up show every thing on the car? not sure what type of flourecents are at the body shop i work at but all i know is inside the shop the cars look great but when i pull them out of the shop in the sun light i see swirls marks and stuff. what type of bulb will give me the most comparable light to sun light?


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## brickbat (Mar 24, 2008)

stevek1972 said:


> ...what type of bulb will give me the most comparable light to sun light?



Interesting question. The kneejerk reaction is why, of course, you need 'full spectrum' 6000K 90+ CRI lamps. That would be good for color rendition that matches sunlight.

But I wonder if there's another issue besides the color rendering ability of the light source - namely that a bright point source, like the sun, may show defects in shiny surfaces better than a diffused light source, like fluorescent lamps.

Try this as a test: Repeat the inspection of a car's paint on a cloudy day outside, and compare it to a sunny day. Which reveals the most defects? If direct sunlight is needed, then the diffused light from T8 fluorescent lamps is far from ideal, no matter how bright or excellent its color rendering. You need sources with much higher intensity.


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## stevek1972 (Mar 24, 2008)

brickbat said:


> Interesting question. The kneejerk reaction is why, of course, you need 'full spectrum' 6000K 90+ CRI lamps. That would be good for color rendition that matches sunlight.
> 
> But I wonder if there's another issue besides the color rendering ability of the light source - namely that a bright point source, like the sun, may show defects in shiny surfaces better than a diffused light source, like fluorescent lamps.
> 
> Try this as a test: Repeat the inspection of a car's paint on a cloudy day outside, and compare it to a sunny day. Which reveals the most defects? If direct sunlight is needed, then the diffused light from T8 fluorescent lamps is far from ideal, no matter how bright or excellent its color rendering. You need sources with much higher intensity.


 
i know the sunlight will reveal all defects but it is a pain in the butt to have to pull thecar out and in so many times. if i can get the proper lighting in garage i will save alot of time by not having to pull it out and in all day.


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## brickbat (Mar 25, 2008)

Yeah. Gotcha. What I'm trying to understand is what characteristic of sunlight you need to mimic. It's just not possible to put the sun in your shop, and even if it was, the air conditioning bills would kill you. 

So, we need to know if the thing about sunlight that reveals defects in the paint is its brightness, color, or (my therory) it's intensity. If you look up in the sky on a sunny day, you'll notice the sun is incredibly bright, but also a pretty small spot. This quality, intensity, is hard to reproduce without spending big bucks. Fluorescent lamps, no matter how bright, never become small spots of high intensity light...

So try the cloudy day test I suggested. Can you see the defects in the car's finish on a cloudy day? Or is direct sunlight needed?


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## jtr1962 (Mar 25, 2008)

It's easier to see scratches and other defects in full sunlight because it's a directional point source (for much the same reason a diamond will sparkle under the sun, incandescent, or even LED, but not fluorescent).

Full-spectrum high-CRI fluorescent in the shop is still a good idea regardless because it will at least allow you to see how colors will appear under sunlight. To find defects I might recommend an HID spotlight of several hundred watts. You can get those similar in color and CRI to sunlight, and being that it's a high-intensity point source it will reveal defects as well as sunlight, perhaps even better. A decent flashlight might also serve the same purpose. Only way to know for sure is to try it.


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## adamlau (Mar 27, 2008)

Super T-8, or T5 linear lamps ought to fit the bill nicely. Or you can go with a 5K HID system for the ultimate garage lighting setup.


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## Rzr800 (Mar 28, 2008)

Keep in mind your lowest operating temperature during selection.


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## turbodog (Mar 28, 2008)

stevek1972 said:


> turbodog: will that set up show every thing on the car? not sure what type of flourecents are at the body shop i work at but all i know is inside the shop the cars look great but when i pull them out of the shop in the sun light i see swirls marks and stuff. what type of bulb will give me the most comparable light to sun light?




Yes it will show everything. If you want even more light, run the fixtures crossways to the car and have one at the front and one at the back.

You can't just put them directly overhead the car though. You need some offset to either side as well.

I'd bet $ that the body shop didn't spend a lot of time or $ selecting light fixtures or color rendition. They just slapped up some lights.

Get enough light and it will be fine. The nice thing about multiple fixtures is that you can see reflections of the lights in the paint from most anywhere you stand.

If you put 6 fixtures (4 bulbs each) up per car you will have NO problem seeing everything. You eyes function better the more light they see. 

6 fixtures with 4 bulbs each is 24 bulbs. Each bulb outputs about 3000 lumens. That's 72000 lumens or about 70 car headlights on high beam.


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## turbodog (Mar 28, 2008)

I'll put it this way, I've got only 2 of these fixtures that cover a 4 car garage and it's like daylight inside there. 6 per car will be intense.


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## BIGIRON (Mar 28, 2008)

My first reaction is to say paint the interior of your garage a light (white?)color if not already. Makes a huge difference for general use anyway.


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## stevek1972 (Mar 28, 2008)

out of all the lights mentioned in this thread which ones would be most energy effencient? also how many of each light would be needed? turbodog has recommended an amount. sorry for all the question but i know nothing about lights and need to get the best bang for my buck.


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## Ken_McE (Mar 28, 2008)

*Color Rendition Index (CRI)*

If you are already familiar with CRI, skip this post. Otherwise, I think you find find it helpful at this point to hear about CRI.

CRI is a way to measure how accurately a particular light shows colors. The human eye is of course closely adapted to the light of our sun. Full sunlight at noon has a CRI of 100. You can think of this as meaning that you will have 100% of your best ability to see colors and details clearly.

If you take a look at the specs for this T-8 bulb: http://www.1000bulbs.com/F13T8/ you will see that it has a CRI of 60. This means that when working under this light you will have roughly 60% of your best ability to see color. This is not a function of how bright the light is, or how diffuse or tight of a source it is. The spectrum it produces is different from sunlight. This particular one is a "cool white" so it will show blues and greens unnaturally strongly, and reds and yellows poorly. If you work for a while in a room full of these your eye will adapt and you won't notice the distortion - until the car goes outside and you jump back up to a higher level of discrimination. So the CRI is poor, but for under two dollars a bulb most people won't notice or care.

Now take a look at these bulbs: http://www.1000bulbs.com/F40T8/ Notice that they have CRIs in the seventies and eighties. They are closer to natural sunlight, and so will show color more accurately, but the prices jump up to two or three times as much per bulb. You can get CRIs that are up into the nineties, but they're not cheap. Quality costs. For example, this bulb: http://www.1000bulbs.com/F20T12-Full-Spectrum-Fluorescent-Light-Bulbs/ has a CRI in the high nineties, but the bulbs run a good $8.00 apiece.

I am leaning towards the idea that you should get high CRI bulbs and light up the place quite brightly. I also feel that you could get the benefit of other detailers experience if you went around to a few shops and asked what kind of lights they use, and if the guy on the floor doesn't know, ask if you can take a look at the bulbs. Every trade has standard techniques. For example there are gadgets like this: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/192103 I assume there is a powerful bulb in there that closely matches natural light. It might be jtr1962s hand held HID spotlight. It might be that people do most of their work under a medium-good light and then use something like this to check for fine details. I don't know, but I'm sure you can find someone who does. A little research might save you a lot of fuss.


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## Ken_McE (Mar 28, 2008)

stevek1972 said:


> out of all the lights mentioned in this thread which ones would be most energy effencient?...(I) need to get the best bang for my buck.



BigIrons comment about painting the whole place white is a good cheap start. It really works. You can also move the lights closer to the car (move them up and down on chains or something) to keep the lighting bright even if you don't have tons of bulbs. Tube type fluorescent bulbs, such as the T-8 and T-5 bulbs mentioned above are also quite efficient, certainly more efficient than any incandescent bulb. jtr1962 mentioned HID spotlights. If you can get one with a good CRI that would do it, but the initial cost should be high. You might do the room as a whole with so-so general lighting and have either ^H^H^H adamlau's HID spot on where you're working, or perhaps a fixture with four of the expensive T-8s that you roll around to where you're working. Adding windows and skylights is a fuss, but they would cost almost nothing to run once they were in.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 28, 2008)

You can get full-spectrum tubes here for reasonable prices. For example, the Maxum 5000 F32-T8 costs $6 each in lots of 25 or more. Lots of 100 or more are $5 each and free shipping. 100 tubes isn't a lot to buy for a garage. Also note that although even at $5 these are still more than twice as much as commodity tubes, lifetime is 34,000 hours, about 70% longer than the usual 20,000 hours of cheaper tubes. This effectively makes these tubes only about $3 each when comparing on a lumen-hours basis. Well worth it. I have been using the Maxum 5000s for a few years now. I'm still on my first set of tubes in the kitchen even though the lights are on maybe 14 hours per day.

Cheaper 5000K, CRI 86 tubes are available here in 25s for only $1.90 per tube. I bought some of these for utility areas. Almost as nice color as the full-spectrum tubes, and way cheaper. No reasons at all to go with the really lousy CRI 60 tubes.

I recommend electronically ballasted fixtures and 4-foot, 32 watt T8 tubes. These have the best availability and price. T8s are available in other lengths, such as 5 feet, 6 feet, and 8 feet, but 4 foot tubes are the sweet spot in terms of price/performance.

I'll third the suggestion of painting the room white. My basement workshop has mostly white ceramic tile floor to ceiling. Huge difference in terms of brightness over darker walls:


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## stevek1972 (Mar 29, 2008)

there are a few people i know from athe detailing forum i am on that has the 3m sun gun and it is very nice. jjust way to much money right now. 

most shops around me(as well as the shop i work in) use the cheapest flourecent light they can get. so more than likely they have a cri of 60 if not lower. i have 2 more questions and i think i will be done. 
1: i would want the cool white color bulbs right?
2: will i have to change the ballast i have running my crappy flourecents?

just thought of 1 more

http://fullspectrumsolutions.com/full_spectrum_fluorescent_bulbs_33_ctg.htm

correct me if i am wrong. but looking at that link above it looks like t5 t6 t8 t12 all refer to the diameter of the light and reallt has no importance or factor on how the bulbs work. is this correct?


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## Ken_McE (Mar 29, 2008)

stevek1972 said:


> most shops around me(as well as the shop i work in) use the cheapest flourecent light they can get. so more than likely they have a cri of 60 if not lower.



Do these shops have to roll the cars in and out a lot to see if they're done?



> 1: i would want the cool white color bulbs right?


If you are just picking up cheap bulbs at the Wallmart I would suggest a mix of the different colors. Besides cool-white they probably have warm-red. Then you would mix the different colors in the fixture(just alternate bulbs) in the hope that they would balance out each others weaknesses. If you are going for the higher CRI bulbs then I don't think they would describe them as cool-white.




> 2: will i have to change the ballast i have running my crappy flourecents?


The ballast needs to match the bulb. For example a T-8 ballast will drive T-8 bulbs perfectly, but if you fed it some T-12 bulbs they might light, but I'd expect them to burn out pretty quick from being overdriven.



> looking at that link above it looks like t5 t6 t8 t12 all refer to the diameter of the light and reallt has no importance or factor on how the bulbs work. is this correct?


Yes. I've been suggesting T-8 because they are strong and efficient, and they are not too hard to find. jtr1962 mentioned T-5 but he's hard core. They are even more efficient and powerful than a T-8, but I think of them as being harsh. Your milage may vary. If your existing fluorescents are old, or if you bought the entire fixture in a box at the store, I would expect them to be T-12s. You can tell by looking near the end of the tubes, there should be a spot where that stuff is printed on the bulb. T-12s are less efficient and powerfull than T-8s, but still more efficient than any incandescent bulb.

Ballasts and bulbs do wear out with time. If the ends of your existing tubes have a kind of black-grey color on the inside then they are getting old and no longer working at full brightness. You can keep your existing fixture and swap out the bulbs and ballast for a different kind if you are comfortable with doing a little wiring.


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## Ken_McE (Mar 29, 2008)

stevek1972 said:


> how many of each light would be needed?



Guys, assuming stevek1972 can afford it, what would you all think of four 4-bulb T-8 fixtures, maybe seven feet up in the air (a little over two meters for our viewers abroad) one hung a little past each corner of the car and tilted towards it? This is less than Turbodog suggested, but stevek1972 is concerned about the cost. It does nothing to address brickbats point/area lighting concern, but I don't know how to address that. This would give a minimum of two fixtures shining on every part of the car.


 /heads back to jtr1962s post just to see what a clean & orderly shop would look like/


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## stevek1972 (Mar 29, 2008)

Ken_McE said:


> Do these shops have to roll the cars in and out a lot to see if they're done?
> 
> 
> no they dont. if it looks good in the shop then they are done with it. that includes body shops and detail shops. which is why i looking for the best possible lighting in my garage i can get. so when i am done then i know i am done.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 29, 2008)

Ken_McE said:


> jtr1962 mentioned T-5 but he's hard core. They are even more efficient and powerful than a T-8, but I think of them as being harsh.


Actually, adamlau mentioned T5s one post below mine. I recommend 4-foot T8s as you do because the tubes and fixtures are inexpensive and readily available. There's also the most choice as far as tubes go. Best of all, in the four foot lengths there's no such thing as crappy CRI 60 T8 tubes. They're all triphosphor, and the worst ones have a CRI of around 75. The next grade is usually CRI 85 or 86 and only costs a little more per tube (well worth the difference). If stevek1972 doesn't want to go with the more expensive full-spectrum tubes, then the CRI 86 ones are nearly as good, and very inexpensive.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 29, 2008)

Ken_McE said:


> Guys, assuming stevek1972 can afford it, what would you all think of four 4-bulb T-8 fixtures, maybe seven feet up in the air (a little over two meters for our viewers abroad) one hung a little past each corner of the car and tilted towards it? This is less than Turbodog suggested, but stevek1972 is concerned about the cost. It does nothing to address brickbats point/area lighting concern, but I don't know how to address that. This would give a minimum of two fixtures shining on every part of the car.


I think this is a great suggestion. Depending upon his finances, he could either go for the full-spectrum tubes, or the 5000K, CRI 86 tubes I linked to a few posts back. Either one will be a huge improvement over the (likely) magnetic-ballasted, CRI 60 T12s probably being used in most of the other shops.



> /heads back to jtr1962s post just to see what a clean & orderly shop would look like/


Thanks for the compliments! :thumbsup:


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