# Surefire 2011 Inflation



## l2icel3all (Feb 1, 2011)

Hey Ladies and Gentlemen, its about that time again. Surefire will be increasing their prices on a lot of their flashlights. 



6PX = $115

G2X = $95

E2L AA = $180

E2DL = $189

E1B BK/SL = $160

A2L- BLUE = $285

A2L- GREEN = $270

A2L- RED = $305

A2L- WHITE = $316

M3LT = $550

M3LT-S = $575 

LX2 = $210

Kroma = $359

Kroma Milspec = $400



I find the A2L pricing the weirdest because its based on the color I guess theres a higher demand for white and red led A2Ls? There are some weapon lights that will be join this list as well but I didn't have any interest in those but if you had a question about a specific one I could check.



If you are interested in purchasing any of the lights above please do it before the price goes up! :thumbsup:


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## RobertM (Mar 20, 2011)

Do you know of any planned increase for the U2?

Thanks,
Robert


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## Size15's (Mar 20, 2011)

Lets see if the existing thread on this topic is still kicking about...


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## lasermax (Mar 20, 2011)

you know I wonder to if there union based company plus also the metal they use if it even up to besides led I've been waiting for somebody to bring this up but its like snapon tools to craftsmaning? tools. but also you have to figure shipping of materials to make these lights but I really don't know just my guess


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## OfficerSheepDog (Mar 20, 2011)

Sorry to be negative surefire lovers, but this common surefire mark up on already ridiculously priced lights is why I refuse to ever buy one. Every time I think about owning one and start looking the prices go up. I know the warranty and reliability is more than fantastic but dam..... I feel like they rape me when I'm browsing online.


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## Acid87 (Mar 20, 2011)

OfficerSheepDog said:


> Sorry to be negative surefire lovers, but this common surefire mark up on already ridiculously priced lights is why I refuse to ever buy one. Every time I think about owning one and start looking the prices go up. I know the warranty and reliability is more than fantastic but dam..... I feel like they rape me when I'm browsing online.



Once you have used a Surefire light your views will change. Thats what happened to me. I havent gone so far as to own an M series light i.e. lights the price of a small car but have quite a few lights.

Maybe have a look over at CPF marketplace you get some good deals on new and used lights. You will have to sign up again but its worth it for discount codes and the deals. Its free though obviously.


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## Size15's (Mar 20, 2011)

OfficerSheepDog said:


> Every time I think about owning one and start looking the prices go up.


Think faster!


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## OfficerSheepDog (Mar 20, 2011)

Size15's said:


> Think faster!


 
Haha both good comments, thanks I'm sure I will eventually own one, and will most likely get it from the market place, I am registered but have never purchased before or sold.

Hmm never saw where the discounts are on CCPFMP?

Thanks :wave:


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## angelofwar (Mar 20, 2011)

90% of my SF's came from the MP, and on average I save about 40% off retail, even though the lights may not be new in box. Like I told my buddy the other day, due to the extreme build quality, there's not much difference between a new Surefire and a 6 months old Surefire. There price increases may not always be to make more money, but to slow demand???


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## lasermax (Mar 21, 2011)

a surefire light is a hand me down light to the next generation yes they are gone up but you have gas/food/car that has also gone up its what we call inflation in america and other countrys what's nice about surefire lights as I've said it is a tool that you can count on like snapon to craftsman tools you'll have them for years to come plus warranty hear you go grand kids that kind of stuff


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## angelofwar (Mar 22, 2011)

lasermax said:


> a surefire light is a hand me down light to the next generation yes they are gone up but you have gas/food/car that has also gone up its what we call inflation in america and other countrys what's nice about surefire lights as I've said it is a tool that you can count on like snapon to craftsman tools you'll have them for years to come plus warranty hear you go grand kids that kind of stuff



Not too mention, SF's tend to maintain a decent resale value, and after a bit, actually go up in price, sometimes doubling or tripling in original cost. Especially ones that don't have a modern replacement...anyone bought a 12ZM on the MP recently??? Original titans go for around $1000. Beast's $2000-$3000. Mint 9Z's around $150. Although the collection of vintage SF's seems to have decreased dramtically over the years, there's still a few out there that have a passion for some SF history.


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## calipsoii (Mar 22, 2011)

Hoo boy, $316 for an A2L-WH! 

That's a significant chunk of change right there. I hope they don't price it so high that people avoid buying them and they cancel the line-up due to low sales. It's a great light, but I don't know about spending over a quarter-grand on one...


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## lasermax (Mar 22, 2011)

well the nice thing is they have a wonderful warranty and please take no offense but that's all I carry besides my mag chargeable at times that is plus my streamlights surefire has a nice feel like a snapon tool and the warranty is the same so yes price is high but cry once I say it all depends how bad you want one and I can see were they would be in value when they don't make the same light any more that's neat what do they say supply demand raises price plus inflation


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## LeifUK (Mar 22, 2011)

A surefire E2L AA torch costs about £200, compared to under £50 for a similar Chinese light. I'd rather buy the Chinese light and if it gets stolen, or mislaid, it's not such a big deal. And in a couple of years time when the latest LED puts out twice as much light, I can afford to upgrade. £200 ($300) is an absolute fortune for a torch. I'd be scared to carry it around in my trouser pocket in case it got lost.


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## angelofwar (Mar 22, 2011)

LeifUK said:


> A surefire E2L AA torch costs about £200, compared to under £50 for a similar Chinese light. I'd rather buy the Chinese light and if it gets stolen, or mislaid, it's not such a big deal. And in a couple of years time when the latest LED puts out twice as much light, I can afford to upgrade. £200 ($300) is an absolute fortune for a torch. I'd be scared to carry it around in my trouser pocket in case it got lost.



The Marketplace is your Freind, LeifUK...on another note, I'd rather risk losing a $300 SF than have 1 or 6 chinese lights fail on me at an inoppurtune time...


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd love to patronize authorized SF dealers more but you can easily find many of the lights on the list above for half the price new in box in online auctions. I'm sure the used lights in the Marketplace are good deals as well. The SF warranty applies no matter where you buy the light from my experience.

List price, or MSRP, is like the rack rate for a hotel room, the walkup price for an airline ticket or the price listed on a hospital bill. Almost nobody actually pays it in these cases unless you don't know any better. And, in the U.S., consumers have some protection from price fixing at the retail level through Federal Trade Commission rules.



> Hoo boy, $316 for an A2L-WH!
> 
> That's a significant chunk of change right there. I hope they don't price it so high that people avoid buying them and they cancel the line-up due to low sales. It's a great light, but I don't know about spending over a quarter-grand on one...


 
I agree, $300 for a light with a SSC emitter in 2011 seems a little over the top. As far as low sales cancelling the line up, previous SF price increases have been defended by the faithful here as a brilliant marketing move to reduce demand so they can concentrate on producing new lights.:huh:



> I'd rather risk losing a $300 SF than have 1 or 6 chinese lights fail on me at an inoppurtune time...


 
Here in Japan I have a SF LX2 and a green A2L in case the reactor blows or another quake hits. But I've also got three of David's Quarks with newer XP-G emitters in my bag as well. My plan to bring several G2X's to give away was overtaken by events and they are still at home. If anything happens, I'll be happy to hand the lights I have to someone who needs them more, these folks have already lost more than I can imagine.

For comparison, the white A2L here in Japan has a list price of 55,440 yen, US$684.06 at today's exchange rate. One dealer has it listed for a discounted price of 41,580 yen, which comes out to US$513.05.


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## JNewell (Mar 22, 2011)

LeifUK said:


> A surefire E2L AA torch costs about £200, compared to under £50 for a similar Chinese light. I'd rather buy the Chinese light and if it gets stolen, or mislaid, it's not such a big deal. And in a couple of years time when the latest LED puts out twice as much light, I can afford to upgrade. £200 ($300) is an absolute fortune for a torch. I'd be scared to carry it around in my trouser pocket in case it got lost.


 
I still have a 6P that's in daily use after almost 15 years. I doubt the 50 pound Chinese light will be in service 15 years from now. And, to be very blunt, I don't want my life or well-being depending on something less durable and reliable than a SureFire or equivalent light.


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## richpalm (Mar 22, 2011)

lasermax said:


> well the nice thing is they have a wonderful warranty and please take no offense but that's all I carry besides my mag chargeable at times that is plus my streamlights surefire has a nice feel like a snapon tool and the warranty is the same so yes price is high but cry once I say it all depends how bad you want one and I can see were they would be in value when they don't make the same light any more that's neat what do they say supply demand raises price plus inflation



I hate to pick, but I can't even read this-no punctuations, no caps, nothing.

SF has gotten much too expensive... those days are over for me.

Rich


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## lasermax (Mar 23, 2011)

richpalm said:


> I hate to pick, but I can't even read this-no punctuations, no caps, nothing.
> 
> SF has gotten much too expensive... those days are over for me.
> 
> Rich


 I apologize for my penmenship I never was good in english and yes they are over priced for a flashlight that's why I have what I want in this hobby if you want to see a high dollar hobby look at ham radio they go up to 11000 thousand dollars and they sell different strokes for different folks


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## Rod82 (Mar 23, 2011)

It looks as tho Surefire is pricing themselves out of the market. But truthfully they have Military contracts and there are tons of people out there that will buy Surefire based on the fact the military uses them. No doubt they are a great company, make a great product and have good customer service. But i am middle class so purchasing a surefire is going to be a rare thing.


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## LeifUK (Mar 23, 2011)

JNewell said:


> I still have a 6P that's in daily use after almost 15 years. I doubt the 50 pound Chinese light will be in service 15 years from now. And, to be very blunt, I don't want my life or well-being depending on something less durable and reliable than a SureFire or equivalent light.


 
I do not know much about Surefire longevity though I do not doubt your testimony. But on what basis do you say that Chinese lights do not last? Granted the ones you buy from DX are junk, but cavers, cyclists, runners and others use lights from Fenix, 4Sevens and others with few problems. There are instances of cavers losing a fenix torch in a cave, and finding it in a stream months later. When they put in new batteries the light runs. My Sunwayman M40A is beautifully made, and shows all the signs of top quality. I recently dropped it while running, it landed on my foot, and I then accidentally kicked it into the air, whereupon it landed in mud with not a mark to show for its unintended journey. My Fenix, 4Sevens, and Sunwayman lights look much better made than my Maglites, and the latter have survived numerous years. Oh and what about the various tests on CPF? One person committed horrendous acts of cruelty to a Fenix TK40, such as running it over and dropping it onto concrete, and it survived, albeit with cosmetic damage. Frankly I expect the Surefire and better Chinese lights use similar manufacturing methods, such as float soldering, and CNC machining. Some of the older Chinese lights have fine threads that could be cross threaded by a cack handed user, but recent ones use coarse threads. 

Your assumption seems to be that the Surefire costs more because it is better made, or that the alternatives are not well made. Well a large part of the cost is due to increased labour costs. It may well be that the Surefire is more durable, but you did not present any evidence, such as the results of independent tests, or surveys of the failure rate among customers. And without evidence that claim is without value. If you have such evidence, then please present it, as that would be very informative and interesting. By the way I do not doubt the quality of Surefire lights. But I do doubt the assertion you made about better quality Chinese lights as they are extremely well made. As I said earlier, Surefire are priced so high that I would need strong evidence that the price is justified.


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## Acid87 (Mar 23, 2011)

LeifUK have you looked at Surefires website? It has testimonials although they obviously won't post bad stories it still has a lot of evidence of the quality of the products. Also try a search on the forum I'm sure there will be plenty of abuse threads. I would post some myself but I'm being lazy.
I used to be the same as you I.e. Too expensive I then started with a G2 and from there it's spiralled and I now own a fair few SF lights. Go to the Marketplace try one then come back if it's not for you sell it on I'm pretty sure you would get your money back.


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## LeifUK (Mar 23, 2011)

Acid87: Unfortunately none of the SF lights suit my needs. Almost all use CR123A, and I would get through 4 or more each week, which is too expensive and wasteful. The sole (?) AA light is low powered, and I suspect the beam is too focussed for my uses. I'm not denigrating SF, just explaining why they would not suit me. Clearly my needs are not the same as yours. I'm not a collector, just someone who wants a pocket torch, a torch for cross country running, and perhaps a torch or two for my push bike.


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## Retinator (Mar 23, 2011)

Ok so quality is starting to level out across the board. That last 1 or 2% improvement is usually an exponential increase in cost, and such a rediculous amount of money needed to bump things up. Many won't go that extra inch, some do.

But aside from quality, the costs of permanently supporting an increasingly expanding user base become exponential as well.

I just finally toasted my P60l from my 6PL (1st surefire), 3 years after I bought it. Not too many places will stand by you after 1 year, regardless of cost of the original unit.

They sent me a new P60L (was hoping for a KX4, oh well, next time) and everything is as good as it was when I first got it.

In the incan days, there wasn't much to warranty. User replaceable bulbs and sometimes tailcaps and other small odds & ends. Now they are supporting the LEDs, electronics etc... for basically forever. I think they might be preparing for the long haul as well as increasing the R&D and hopefully the manufacturing capacity to meet demand.

Too much crap going on in the world. They're always going to have high demand, why keep the prices low?


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## fordwillman (Mar 23, 2011)

Surefire pricing has gotten too high. No more Surefire's for me, there are lots of other choices out there. My 2 cents. (and I like Surefire lights and have several).


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Mar 23, 2011)

A quick post before the net crashes again here in Japan. Got an e-mail from a major SF dealer saying that the price increase is effective on April Fool's Day, i.e. April 1.

Bottled water is flying off the shelves here as reported elsewhere but so far, no power interruptions where I'm at. A lot more folks are wearing paper masks than a couple of days ago.


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## Dude Dudeson (Mar 23, 2011)

Acid87 said:


> Once you have used a Surefire light your views will change. Thats what happened to me.



Me too - until the thing started having problems. Then I had an even BIGGER change of view. As in a vision of myself with a piece of paper slapped on my back labelled "SUCKER".

As I pondered the irony of having to exercise warranty options on a supposedly top notch piece of equipment that didn't survive a hundredth of the use/abuse of my extremely old Maglites the damn light ended up being stolen via vehicle theft.

I was ALMOST glad the damn thing was taken from me.

I'd recommended Surefire to a friend a while back, and she went through several lights that died on her. She finally just stopped dealing with Surefire, and took the loss. I was perplexed and amazed at the time. I was saying things like "wow, you must really have bad luck".

But then it happened to me too...

Truly, I am getting near the point of going back to "crap lights". Can't remember any problems with them, over nearly 40 years. Busted and burned a few incandescent bulbs, but that's par for the course there.

Never really had (or HEARD OF) problems with flashlights until all the new stuff.

At least I wasn't showing my Surefire off when it started having problems. Wow, that'd have been an extreme embarrasment. "Here, check out my awesome $100+ flashlight, oh, wait, what the hell?"...

Is it possible that the entire modern flashlight world is like the people who insist on overclocking their computers and then understand quite well why their gear fails? That whole "well I WAS pushing the tech to it's limits" thing?

Are modern flashlights pushing ahead of their time at their own expense?


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## angelofwar (Mar 24, 2011)

LeifUK said:


> I do not know much about Surefire longevity though I do not doubt your testimony. But on what basis do you say that Chinese lights do not last? Granted the ones you buy from DX are junk, but cavers, cyclists, runners and others use lights from Fenix, 4Sevens and others with few problems. There are instances of cavers losing a fenix torch in a cave, and finding it in a stream months later. When they put in new batteries the light runs. My Sunwayman M40A is beautifully made, and shows all the signs of top quality. I recently dropped it while running, it landed on my foot, and I then accidentally kicked it into the air, whereupon it landed in mud with not a mark to show for its unintended journey. My Fenix, 4Sevens, and Sunwayman lights look much better made than my Maglites, and the latter have survived numerous years. Oh and what about the various tests on CPF? One person committed horrendous acts of cruelty to a Fenix TK40, such as running it over and dropping it onto concrete, and it survived, albeit with cosmetic damage. Frankly I expect the Surefire and better Chinese lights use similar manufacturing methods, such as float soldering, and CNC machining. Some of the older Chinese lights have fine threads that could be cross threaded by a cack handed user, but recent ones use coarse threads.
> 
> Your assumption seems to be that the Surefire costs more because it is better made, or that the alternatives are not well made. Well a large part of the cost is due to increased labour costs. It may well be that the Surefire is more durable, but you did not present any evidence, such as the results of independent tests, or surveys of the failure rate among customers. And without evidence that claim is without value. If you have such evidence, then please present it, as that would be very informative and interesting. By the way I do not doubt the quality of Surefire lights. But I do doubt the assertion you made about better quality Chinese lights as they are extremely well made. As I said earlier, Surefire are priced so high that I would need strong evidence that the price is justified.



Not to get into to detailed, but, just one thing I noticed first hand...continuous product improvement...I dropped my 2008 E2L and the guts of the clickie broke (although the light still functioned). After contacting them, explaining the problem (what I believed went wrong, what the weak part was, etc., they sent me a new tail-cap...but on this new tail-cap, they had permanently fixed the weak spot of the old tail-caps by placing a metal sleeve over the plastic switch holder.

Here's their mode of operation with regards to "Continuous Product Improvement":

-They got a few broken tail-caps back
-They asked "What went wrong?" and "How can we find a permanent solution?"
-They permanently fixed the problem (even if they had to stop production of the tail-caps for a few days for the engineers to design and implement the fix).
-All Z57's since then have had the metal shroud in the tail-cap, preventing the plastic switch holder from falling to pieces IF it becomes broken...and nobody has to ask them to do this or complain...they take the initiative and fix these problems on there own.

Why did they do this? Cause they know people like me (I was in Iraq at the time) put there lives on their lights working...

(Rant not directed at you Lief, but I quoted your thread as you presented the question...this is just a little bit of the "proof")


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## calipsoii (Mar 24, 2011)

@Dude Dudeson

Between this post and your one in the Zebralight thread, I'm starting to wonder if there is a brand that you DO like. I'm not jumping to Surefire's defense here (I complained about the A2L price just a few posts up) but it doesn't sound like you gave their warranty much of a chance. Sorry to hear it was stolen before you were able to, but Surefire's warranty is one of those things they really pride themselves on.

In my personal experience, my SF's have been nothing but rock-solid. I've dropped a 6P almost 2 stories down the center of a stairwell with little more than some chipped ano. My Aviator's bounced down a flight of stairs and survived no worse for wear. The only other light I own that I would say is as dependable is my HDS 170Cn (and probably my TK20). I do think they're going overboard with the yearly price increases, but I certainly wouldn't rate them worse than some of the cheaper "crap" lights.

I'd like to hear more detail on why your SF's didn't withstand your abuse, not just a general statement that paints the entire company with the same brush. It may well be that you got a bad light, but for all I know, it's equally possible that you're just hard on equipment and a Mag is a better choice than a SF/ZL.


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## NE450No2 (Mar 24, 2011)

I talked to a Sure Fire LEO Rep just today.
He told me to go to their web site,as they had some stuff for a reduced price, but the the prices would be going up soon.


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## Acid87 (Mar 24, 2011)

LeifUK I understand that Surefires don't meet everyone's needs. Personally I work in the outdoors and only need the light at night with a headlamp too. I understand you aren't putting down the light. CR123's last longer than AA lights in my opinion but again that is entirely subjective. I'm not a great collector of lights I just have a few in different places. I.e. My car the missus' car and edc. I'm by no means a Surefires fanboy I own a few other brands but I've never had any problems with Surefires lights. 

On an entirely different note I'm using my iPad now rather than my laptop. I can't figure out how to use quotes which is a total pain in the arse! I may have to just use the website rather than using apps.

Steven


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## jtblue (Mar 25, 2011)

The price inflation that all of you are experiencing in the States is quite the opposite of what we are experiencing in Australia. I was checking out one of Surefires Australian importers and the prices have dropped by almost half in most cases! I paid about $180AUD for my 6PL which now sells for $106AUD, good times ahead for Australians.


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## Chrontius (Mar 26, 2011)

I have so far only bought one new Surefire, but I own close to a dozen. Like-new pre-owned lights are a steal compared to paying retail. 

Sadly, the much-coveted AZ2 has yet to make its debut in the Marketplace, as far as I can tell.


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## 00Photo (Mar 26, 2011)

Glad I was able to pick up a LX2 before the price went up!


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## ZMZ67 (Mar 28, 2011)

Whenever I am interested in a SF light the prices seem to be going up,often substantially! It has become a real turn-off with SF for me.With so many quality products available I am having a hard time justifying the price for Surefires.


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## Tana (Mar 28, 2011)

Ha... there is a saying "I'm not so rich to buy cheap items" in the past referring to cheaper products to be less reliable... and frankly, you can't find another manufacturer that can stand so much abuse in the field. Frankly, Surefire proved themselves to be THE BEST and government agencies like that... so even with sligthly higher prices, they will still sell majority of their production to military and police... the truth is, Surefire is ridiculously tough... like unnecessary tough...
I LOVE Surefire... started only a year ago and now have close to 20 hosts and complete lights... but it's not because military and police use it... it's because I believe in their durability and customer service... you drop your light, break your lens or damage a bezel... 99% they will replace it on their cost... It's all personal taste... If you could afford BOTH, would you drive Lexus or KIA ??? For the price, Lexus is around double the price for the same class vehicle if not more, it sure is not double the good than KIA or double the reliability... but people still buy Lexus...
And... having a Surefire always had that "taste" of exclusivity... of course Solarforce fans will disagree... So if SF is not so good, why is everybody cloning their products, Solarforce so shamelessly ??? Saying that, I have 5-6 Solarforce hosts... I enjoy playing LEGO with them but if SF had the same things and accessories in offer, my collection would be SF only, not mixed from everything, from genuine to clones...
No matter how many times SF rise their prices, we will still buy their products... Why would have so many watches costing few thousands (even hundred thousand) or vehicles costing 2.2 million for "supermachine"... because there is always a customer for it... the more exclusive it is, the more wanted it is... Did someone mention that Surefires sells for more than retail as second hand now (few models) ??? Ferrari brand comes to mind...


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## LeifUK (Mar 28, 2011)

Tana said:


> and frankly, you can't find another manufacturer that can stand so much abuse in the field.



Do you have any proof of that statement?


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## Tana (Mar 28, 2011)

You're really asking me for the proof on this matter ??? With this many units deployed in the most harsh conditions with so many good stories but so many failure stories in the field (I guess peope like Surefire so much that all bad things that happen about them, they just hide the fact)... Every single soldier that passes by me around has SF attached to the rifle... It's probably just marketing, is that what you're suggesting ???

Yes... you're probably right... I do not have proof, when you put it that way... practically... the only way is to somehow convince more of military and police personnel to use other brand and then we can have better picture...

But for starters, if we just google-search CPF for abuse test, I wonder how many SF vs other brands abuses we see... I don't have other brands to compare my collection inbetween but I do believe members on this forum that state that SF type II to be more durable than some chinese type III... I mean that's why we read this forum, to read other people opinions and experiences so we don't have to explore ourselves...


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## LeifUK (Mar 28, 2011)

Tana said:


> You're really asking me for the proof on this matter ??? With this many units deployed in the most harsh conditions with so many good stories but so many failure stories in the field (I guess peope like Surefire so much that all bad things that happen about them, they just hide the fact)... Every single soldier that passes by me around has SF attached to the rifle... It's probably just marketing, is that what you're suggesting ???
> 
> Yes... you're probably right... I do not have proof, when you put it that way... practically... the only way is to somehow convince more of military and police personnel to use other brand and then we can have better picture...
> 
> But for starters, if we just google-search CPF for abuse test, I wonder how many SF vs other brands abuses we see... I don't have other brands to compare my collection inbetween but I do believe members on this forum that state that SF type II to be more durable than some chinese type III... I mean that's why we read this forum, to read other people opinions and experiences so we don't have to explore ourselves...


 
Okay, so that was a subjective opinion with no proof. There is a difference between anecdote, and a proper survey. When you say "but I do believe members on this forum that state that SF type II to be more durable than some chinese type III", I am sure everyone agrees with you. A lot of Chinese lights are junk especially DX ones, but the better ones are first rate. You might like to search for the thread in which a user abuses his Fenix TK41. Or the threads where cavers testify to having discovered a light submerged in a cave many months after it was lost, sometimes after a long fall onto rock, and it still worked. Bear in mind that what you said was "you can't find another manufacturer that can stand so much abuse in the field.". I'm not for one minute saying that Surefire are not robust, well made units. But you are going further and saying that no other brand is as robust. As far as I can tell the construction of good Chinese lights and SF lights is pretty much the same, with CNC machined casings, the same kind of circuitry, and third party LEDs, so the durability comes down to QC before it reaches the factory gate. Of course if I am mistaken, that SF have something in their circuits that makes them more robust, then I hope someone will chime in. Now if you are saying that SF QC is better, well okay, but it would be nice to have evidence.


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## Tana (Mar 28, 2011)

Hm... you're right about Phoenix... I did make a wrongful statement with wrong paraphrasng... I should've rephrased my sentence as "you can't find many other manufacturers that have their products so consistantly durable"... but people do make mistakes and people do make wrong conclusions, especially with the fact that with time everything changes... there is probably few other manufacturers that are closing by up to SF standards with a much affordable price... but they are still trying to prove their durability like SF... if I'm not mistaken again...
It's a matter of personal opinions and finacial affordability and that's why we choose either SF path or other manufacturers pahts... The truth is that Fenix is still breaking the grounds with reliability where SF was proved long time ago and you're making sure shot with them... Plus, as I don't know much about Phoenixes, are they all durable as TK41...
As I've seen before, each time SF vs. everything else argument starts, it's near status quo, moderators get involved... yet, I would have to ask you for more examples of other brands torture to backup your theory vs. SF so TK41 is don't end up being just exemption from the rule... But I know I'm leaning towards subjective side as all my flashlights are Surefire with only some of surefire 6P clones with their accessories to play legos for hours and hours...
Again, SF IS overpriced just like Omega or Rolex watches but people who can afford them will pay for it... as you get proven product that holds it's value very good, bomb-proof, reliable, and in my case, lego playable with thousands of nice parts being offered by SF in the past and cloning companies in the present... Speaking of torture of other brands, I do have 3 L2P's so I'm going to do some beating up to it vs. C2 (that I yet have to get as I'm emotionally attached to my 3 C2 hosts I have now)...
Sorry if I offended you with that bold yet too fast puled out statement...


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## LeifUK (Mar 28, 2011)

Tana said:


> H
> Sorry if I offended you with that bold yet too fast puled out statement...


 
I was not in the least bit offended, they are only tools, I was just curious to find out why you believe what you do. 

I cannot comment on reliability since I am not aware of any reliable surveys of users, or information on returns from dealers. I suspect one reason for the US army using SF (and I think some parts do) is security of supply i.e. they want a domestic source. Also you don't want to buy equipment from a potential enemy, as it is quite possible that the equipment could be intentionally defective. However, there are goodness knows how many areas where Chinese companies have 'infiltrated' Western life that we might be stuffed were we to engage in a bit of argie bargie with China. Telecoms is one good example. 

Also I suspect that police forces etc prefer SF (assuming they do) due as you say to past experience i.e. a proven record. Still, you could argue that SF have moved to LED lights at the same time as Chinese ones appeared, so neither really has an advantage in terms of demonstrated reliability.


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## sween1911 (Mar 28, 2011)

Over 3 years ago, I made my thoughts on this topic known and I stand by them.
Took me awhile to find it, but it was worth it...

(post 199) http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-fascination&p=2191414&viewfull=1#post2191414


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 28, 2011)

sween1911 said:


> Over 3 years ago, I made my thoughts on this topic known and I stand by them.
> Took me awhile to find it, but it was worth it...
> 
> (post 199) http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-fascination&p=2191414&viewfull=1#post2191414



LOL. It would make my life easier as a moderator.

Bill


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 28, 2011)

Well, over 3 years ago, one could say non of Surefire flashlights were made in China, which was true. 

Not anymore, Surefire owns Icon & Icon flashlight are made in China, like it or not, that means
*part of Surefire's flashlight portfolio are Flashlights made in China* 

Yes, not under Surefire Brand, but non the less, they are indeed surefire(as a company) flashlights. Paul Kim works for sure fire, it's naive to believe that he'll be allowed to open his own company to sell "Icon flashlight". Ask yourself one question: Will your company allow you to start a side business selling the same goods & keep your job at the same time? 
There is no Icon flashlight company! Or better yet, there is one & it's called SUREFIRE  

Surefire site don't mention icon & Icon site don't mention Surefire & Paul Kim will not tell you that Icon is owned by surefire. They carefully hide the relationship between the two. That's *smart marketing*, *for reasons I don't think I need to explain*. However, legally, one can not lie & that's where the truth will reside: Read the Icon trade mark Registration below:








*
Still not convinced? Read the trade mark link below: *
http://www.trademarkia.com/icon-77598438.html


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## mikejones99 (Mar 28, 2011)

Yowch, glad I picked mine up when I did... now for a few more..


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## LeifUK (Mar 28, 2011)

ma_sha1 said:


> Well, over 3 years ago, one could say non of Surefire flashlights were made in China, which was true.
> 
> Not anymore, Surefire owns Icon & Icon flashlight are made in China, like it or not, that means
> *part of Surefire's flashlight portfolio are Flashlights made in China*



They are simply following a rational business strategy. They know that some people will always buy Chinese lights in preference to Surefire, so they want a cut of the action. And they are probably targeting different markets anyway. It is quite common for manufacturers to have luxury brands, middle range brands, and low end brands, although they have to take care to not contaminate the expensive brand. That is why Toyota created Lexus, so as not to contaminate Lexus with the Toyota image. Watch makers are the same, and it could be said that a failing of Seiko is to offer extremely high end mechanical watches under the Seiko brand, albeit Seiko Grand, rather than creating a new brand name. Back to Surefire, just because SF own Icon, that does not imply any real connection in terms of quality and reliability.


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## Hogokansatsukan (Mar 28, 2011)

Now, I've owned over 30 SureFire flashlights, and started with the 6P by Laser Products. That was some time ago.
I currently would not buy anything in the SF lineup. SF builds tough flashlights. They did not get on the LED ball as quickly as others, and now have been trying to cover ground in that area.
Surefire probably has the greatest marketing team one could ever hope for. Their incan lights were cutting edge and by far the brightest and most durable the market had seen. This is what got them the reputation, and the police and military contracts. Then, they got caught with their pants down on the LED scene.
For what SF wants for their lights, I would much rather have an HDS (still cheaper than many of the SF lineup), and a whole lot more durable. Same warranty. When HDS was Novatac, I got to test the lights by abusing them. Henry continues to beat the crap out of the lights, improves them, then fixes anything that may have a problem.
I just got to test a few HDS lights... by shooting them. Yes. Henry asked me to shoot his lights just to see how they would hold up. I'll be posting picture of these in my T.I.T. H.E.A.D. thread later.

I'm not bashing SF. I was a loyal "buyer" of their lights, but for the money, there are better and tougher lights out there. I also have 4 Sevens lights. Do I think they are as tough? No. I don't think so. Will I use them for my work? Yep. I do.

If government and military contracts make a light "the best light", then the Fulton Anglehead should be what everyone is striving for. Has seen more conflicts than SF. Just looks a bit silly duct taped the bottom of an M4.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Mar 28, 2011)

> Well, over 3 years ago, one could say non of Surefire flashlights were made in China, which was true.
> 
> Not anymore, Surefire owns Icon & Icon flashlight are made in China, like it or not, that means
> *part of Surefire's flashlight portfolio are Flashlights made in China*


Well, there is a pattern in other U.S. made products over the years that may soon be repeated at Surefire. A couple of decades ago, premium luggage brands like Tumi, Andiamo, and Boyt all advertised their superior U.S. workmanship. They charged premium prices for the perceived American quality and brand recognition. An onslaught of ever improving competing products produced 'offshore' and increasing production costs forced these labels to quietly move production of their flagship products overseas and start 'value' lines of the products. The Andiamo brand is now history and I believe Tumi and Boyt are now all made in China with country of origin labeling discretely hidden in product and advertising.

Will future Surefire's be made in China perhaps? The brand will still be iconic and like Apple, will be 'designed in California'. Military and other U.S. contracts that come under the 1933 'Buy American Act' may continue to support the upward price spiral for a while but at some point competitive forces may force a reality check.
Reference to off topic post removed.


And my thoughts above about Surefire pricing and production are in no way meant to depict SF in a less than glowing light!


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## Tana (Mar 28, 2011)

Things are rolling while you're sleeping (me, in this case). Well, the reason US military and police force is still using SF is definitely based on previous 20+ years of "owning the scene". US military has to stick to domestic brands, no matter if it's flashlight, weapon of vehicle (yet I gotta see myself something that's used but not US made). This can involve items with parts manufactured in countries like China but under strict control of US company owning the right, then proudly assembled in US with, for now, always better QC (hinting to China QC, not EU), but also assembeling products of part of 100% US origin. I'm sure SF is still this second group. Then again, I'm still unenlightened so I may be wrong again. So US military and police might change their opinion about SF in close future and start getting some other US brand but that is not easy to happen. There is a lot of things involved in decision of what becomes standard issue gear in US military branches, beside the durability and price. For example, I never understood why standard sidearm is M9 which is Beretta 92(something) made in US under license... There are lot of better handguns there...
But this strays away from the thread topic... Going thru old posts, every time SF makes moves like this 2011 inflation, there is a same question rised again... Yet people still buy them... As same as people buy BMWs in Europe when you can get something like Opel (GM/Vauxhall) Vectra (Cavallier)... Their C version proved to be as reliable as BMW with lower to mid powered engines to have the same performaces but much cheaper to maintain with less insurance value than BMW... yet whoever has a chance, buys BMW, Mercedes or Audi... and their sales are GROWING... If someone can afford something that's BRAND but besides brand to really be one of the top manufacturers (I'm affraid to use THE TOP manufacturer as I realise by other experienced members that there ARE other brands with constant growth of quality), reliable, of course you'll go with that... It would be funny to see that someone buys LX2 and it fails him/her... But it doesn't happen... Other brands are closing with reliability, improving but when you're on top for a long time and maintain that reliability for long time, when you think about it, there is not much you can do to improve even more... SF makes a light and it lasts... it may not be the brightest, it may not be the longest running on that amount of lumens... but it's there for you when you need it and it proved to be there for 20 years... As with LED's, they are lot slower than other brands but by their "promises" (that usually just keeps us high hoped for year or two then only to say it's cancelled)... THAT's the part I really mind to SF... they promised a flashlight that has different levels of brightness with possibility to chose throw-vs-flood with it... 200 lumens about 2 years ago (I started with this addiction a year ago but was instantly hooked up on Optimus, I think)... anyway... 2 years after, 200 lumens is "naaaah, it's bright but it's not it" and you still cannot choose throw/flood, with their project cancelled (have no idea how much they spent on research in similar case)... If they ever came up with a flashlight like that, it would probably cost around 400-500 bucks... TOO expensive... But do you think sales would be low ??? No way... All those BMW, Mercedes and Audi owners will run to their SF dealers and get one just to have it in the door compartment of their premium vehicle... premium for premium... By buying a SF, you buy part of their history... So when we think about some brands being close or equal in reliability and durability, it's not because SF lowered their stakes, but because others are catching up, finally...
As for me purchasing a light for 500 bucks with 200 lumens and throw/flood settings... no thanks... My loyal bored C2 with Malkoff M61W and McClicky is enough (oh, darn... I've just proved that my EDC is pretty much everything but Surefire itself)... sorry guys... but I still stand firm on... Is Surefire TOO expensive with this new 2011 inflation ??? YES !!! Is it worth it ??? YES !!! (BUT for people who are able to afford it and don't mind going extra for premium mass product)...


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## ampdude (Mar 29, 2011)

angelofwar said:


> Not too mention, SF's tend to maintain a decent resale value, and after a bit, actually go up in price, sometimes doubling or tripling in original cost. Especially ones that don't have a modern replacement...anyone bought a 12ZM on the MP recently??? Original titans go for around $1000. Beast's $2000-$3000. Mint 9Z's around $150. Although the collection of vintage SF's seems to have decreased dramtically over the years, there's still a few out there that have a passion for some SF history.


 
I think it's more a sign of the economic times, than a decrease in the passion for collecting. I still have the core of my collection. There's certain lights I know I may sell someday, there's others I know that I will never, ever sell.


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## Machete God (Mar 29, 2011)

Well, my local SF distributor increased the prices at the original date, in spite of SF USA's delay of the increase. When asked why (via their Facebook page) they said, "This is the management decision as current inventory is low. New items will be imported at new (higher) prices." :thinking: 

How soon will it take for CPFMP prices to go up accordingly? Perhaps enterprising individuals are hoarding 6PXs and G2Xs even as we speak, waiting anxiously for the days after April Fools' Day...


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## madcat816 (Mar 30, 2011)

Well thanks to this thread just put my order in for my first Surefire, an E2DL. 

My lights get to endure some of the toughest conditions. Accidental drops, clumsy bumps into objects, getting use in snow/rain/sun, hundreds of actuations, tapping/hitting objects. The Pelican 7060 has stood up for 2 yrs and still going.. But now id figure I give another contender a shot.

Ready to see what the Surefire hype is about.


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## dealgrabber2002 (Mar 30, 2011)

Where are the pictures of a Surefire sawing a maglite? Hope the pictures are still in the data base after the crash.


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## Tommygun45 (Mar 30, 2011)

I wouldn't be too surprised if this didn't actually happen. I actually spent about $3,000 on SF's the last time the price hike was supposed to happen. www.surefire.com, www.spidertactical.com, and a few other sites actually raised their prices for a few hours. (SF's was for the entire day.) Around 5PM EST time I called SF and asked them if they were staying high. They told me they were doing internal maintenence on their servers, and in about an hour all of the prices went back down. Ironically enough all of the price points are now filled with other lights. The G2Z and G2ZX and those lights have filled those $115 dollar price points that the 6PX and G2X ($95) were supposed to go to. Hopefully they will stay there. Bumping the E1B and E2DL would'nt surprise me too much. However most can still be found on ebay for roughly 60-70% of their MSRP's and that shouldn't change. I did talk to a SF rep last night though and she confirmed that there would be a price increase on April 1, but they were also pretty sure of themselves the last time this happened in February.


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## ElectronGuru (Mar 30, 2011)

The 2010 increases were blanket, a small/similar % on all items. 2011 varies with model: x300 is $25 more. 6P-BK is unchanged, etc.


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## richpalm (Mar 31, 2011)

Like I said in another discussion-they shot themselves in the foot. They will end up just selling to the "G" and have little to no consumer market... JMO. Like the $400 toilet seat, etc.

I do my own mods anyway so Surefires don't suit my purposes, plus the cost.

Rich


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## DM51 (Mar 31, 2011)

LeifUK... your absurd posturing and trollish behavior has led to the closure of this thread. 

You will now have plenty of time on your hands to reflect on the inadvisability of violating Rule 8 and causing general disruption. When (if) you return, we will expect to see a very marked improvement in your attitude.


_Edit: a number of posts have now been removed from view._


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