# Lumens Factory M series type bulb



## duckpotatoes (Feb 28, 2007)

Just got an email from them today and they said they will be anouncing their " M series bulb for the M4 , M3, in about a month....


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## Telkin (Feb 28, 2007)

Wow! Is this true!?? That's great news. I can't wait for my E-Series bulbs to arrive and I have a whole set of M-Series lights that could use some extra lumens.


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## duckpotatoes (Feb 28, 2007)

Yep its true! Gabriel returned my email promptly, and mentioned the complexities of the difficult bulb design shape. So about a month till the press release...
so how many lumens ya think, on them 18650's....?
650? 7....?


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## [email protected] (Feb 28, 2007)

..............


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Feb 28, 2007)

Oh ****! There goes my funds!! Now I'll have an excuse to buy an M6.


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## Flash_Gordon (Feb 28, 2007)

Oh Crap! I thought I might get a break, but no!

More packages from Hong Kong:

"What are you getting all the time from Hong Kong?"
"Flashlight bulbs."
"No really, what are you getting from Hong Kong?"

Just received my HO-E1A and HO-E2A.

The E2A is a very nice improvement-very very bright with excellent beam quality. It will make a nice upgrade to my E2E which is an EDC.

The E1A is amazing! Very bright with beautiful beam. If you have a one cell SF incan, you should have one of these.

Mark


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## duckpotatoes (Feb 28, 2007)

.....how bright can ya make it.....?


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## dizzy (Feb 28, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> ..............



A lamp that could be used in the M6 with a full load of 3.7v RCR123's would sell like hotcakes!!!


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## jsr (Mar 1, 2007)

Ah crap...why'd you have to go and do that? Now I HAVE to buy an M3 head and an C2M adapter to run a rediculously bright bulb in my C2+Detonator. I guess it's ramen again...even worse, when I was in college (way back), I lived off a sack of potatoes for a month...you think ramen for a month is bad, try potatoes (and no, I didn't have anything else to make nice, yummy, fancy potato dishes...just a microwave and a fork).


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## leukos (Mar 1, 2007)

Fantastic news, LF! I hope there are a few extended runtime lamps in the offering (especially for the M3)!


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## Jay R (Mar 1, 2007)

leukos said:


> Fantastic news, LF! I hope there are a few extended runtime lamps in the offering (especially for the M3)!


 
I sent them an e'mail about a week ago asking about bulbs for the M3 and if they were going to do one of their 700 lumen 13v bulbs ( 3 x 3.7 Lithium ). I received a reply saying that they were, but not at that sort of power. The e'mail is at work but I think he was quoting around 280 or 300 lumens or something around there. It was for 7 volts and two 14500 cells.

I don't know if they had decided for sure yet ....


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## Chronos (Mar 1, 2007)

Excellent! Muhahahahahahahahaha. 

I can't wait to see what they develop. Bulbs for 2x3.7 and 3x3.7 setups would be great. a 2x18650 bulb, a cross between the MN16 and MN21 would be great.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Mar 2, 2007)

I hope they will be offering bulbs for the SF Turboheads too, and not only for the regular M series.


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## Ctechlite (Mar 2, 2007)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> I hope they will be offering bulbs for the SF Turboheads too, and not only for the regular M series.



First post says they are making them for the M4 so that will be a turbohead offering.


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## Chronos (Mar 14, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> ..............



Alrighty then... any updates you feel you can share???


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## DM51 (Mar 14, 2007)

This is going to be veeeeerrrrrrrrrryyyyy expen$$$$$ive....


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2007)

The plan is to design a lamp assembly for the M3, M3t, and the M4.
We are going to use lamps that is similar in output as the Extreme High Output Lamps in the D26 and D36 series with a higher lead to coil length and most of all improved shocked resistence.

A different filament treatment coating technology will be used on these lamps that will improve the shock resistence and increase the output and colour temp by at least 5%, average life will also be longer. 

The bulb will not "blacken" easily with this coating and chance of instaflash will be minimized because the filament will be much stronger.

So as you can see, it is easier said then done. The lamps with the above quality are only used by a few OEM clients who demands military spec lamps. One of them is RICO, the lamp after the treatment will perform like what you see on the videos on their site.

Pricing has not been discussed yet as the product is still in the testing stages.

That is all the update I can give you guys. I am keeping my mouth shut on this project until further notice. 

Cheers,


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Mar 14, 2007)

Outstanding!!

I hope there will be lamp assemblies for regular batteries too. How bright can you make a 3XCR123 lamp assembly for the M3T? Heat won't be a problem, as these lights were designed for serious use.


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## Chronos (Mar 21, 2007)

Thanks Mark!

I appreciate the update. I'm eagerly awaiting the release of these bulbs.


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## LITEmania (Mar 21, 2007)




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## jumpstat (Mar 21, 2007)

Hope they designs bulbs that can withstand multiple 3.7v rechargeables rather than primaries. This would really make these m series more desireable and cost effective in the long run.


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## Geologist (Mar 25, 2007)

are these the same as the MN lamps for the the KT turboheads? That would be nice!


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## waynejitsu (Mar 25, 2007)

Looking forward to these!!


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## Flash007 (Mar 25, 2007)

jumpstat said:


> Hope they designs bulbs that can withstand multiple 3.7v rechargeables rather than primaries. This would really make these m series more desireable and cost effective in the long run.


 
I agree.
In M3, bulb for 2x17500/18500 (same voltage than 3x CR123's).
In M4, bulb for 2x17670/18650, and off course, standard 12V bulb for 4x CR123.

Each model with normal/high/very high current draw bulb version sounds me good.


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## defusion (Mar 25, 2007)

oh yeah, I'd like some 500 lumen out of my M3 with 2x17500 (or does the 18500 fit aswell without boring it out?)
what runtime can i expect with something like that?


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Mar 25, 2007)

defusion said:


> oh yeah, I'd like some 500 lumen out of my M3 with 2x17500 (or does the 18500 fit aswell without boring it out?)
> what runtime can i expect with something like that?


Zero. It would draw about 3 amps (>2.5C) and trip your protection circuit. 18500 cells are too wide. Pila 300S and Wolf Eyes 150B cells might work, giving you 15 minutes of runtime, but the voltage sag would probably knock off 100 lumens.


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## brunt_sp (Mar 30, 2007)

So now we need Leef to make a C to M tube that takes 2 X 18500s.


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## defusion (Mar 30, 2007)

brunt_sp said:


> So now we need Leef to make a C to M tube that takes 2 X 18500s.


indeed! the only way now is by using a C to M converter for the C to C body


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## duckpotatoes (Mar 31, 2007)

...while we are still on the subject, got a qreal quick question for you guys.
So, how come 2 18500's are SO much shorter then 3 123's???
I had to go to a hardware store to modify my D3 spring just to make it have contact. By the way, if you get the right size spring, it " just threads" perfect onto the existing tailcap spring!


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## brunt_sp (Apr 2, 2007)

brunt_sp said:


> So now we need Leef to make a C to M tube that takes 2 X 18500s.


But I suppose we could use a Leef 1 X 18650 C to M body with a bored-out SF A19 extender or HA natural equivalent that Lighthound sells, unless of course Leef can start making such an item !


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Apr 26, 2007)

Hey Mark, what up with these bulbs, where are them?


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## mdocod (Apr 26, 2007)

> I sent them an e'mail about a week ago asking about bulbs for the M3 and if they were going to do one of their 700 lumen 13v bulbs ( 3 x 3.7 Lithium ).



that would be a pointless configuration, because there are no RCR123 cells made that could safely deliver the current necessary to drive a "700" lumen lamp with 3 in series.

check it out...

3 RCR123= ~5.9WH capacity at maximum safe delivery rate using best cells available
2 17500s= ~7.8WH capacity at maximum safe delivery rate using best cells available

there is no good reason to build a light using 3xRCR123 when you can step down to a lamp that runs on 2x17500s instead, just choose something that runs at a higher current. There is basically no practical difference in maximum safe power delivery between the 2 configurations. (in WATTS)

the only practical reason for 13V bulbs, is when you are willing to step up to 3x18500 configurations or larger. But I do sort-of question why build a 13V 2.2A lamp(EO-13), and not build a 9V 3.3A lamp. The output of a EO-13 could be had from a 2x18650 configuration, 3.3A is safe for those cells, and takes up less length than the minimum safe 13V length (4.5cell length)


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## DM51 (Apr 26, 2007)

mdocod said:


> But I do sort-of question why build a 13V 2.2A lamp(EO-13), and not build a 9V 3.3A lamp. The output of a EO-13 could be had from a 2x18650 configuration, 3.3A is safe for those cells, and takes up less length than the minimum safe 13V length (4.5cell length)


That is a truly *excellent* question! Is Mark at LF reading this?


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2007)

Yes guys, I have been reading. 

But I have been very busy lately with new projects, so sorry for the late update on the Series.

Here are the current specs of the M Series:

For M3: (3xCR123A) (2x17500 Rechargeable Batteries)
HO-M3 7.4V 1.55A 320 Lumens
EO-M3 7.2V 2.0A 380 Lumens

For M3T: (3xCR123A) (2x17500 Rechargeable Batteries)
HO-M3T 7.2V 2.0A 380 Lumens
EO-M3T 7.2V 2.4A 450 Lumens

For M4: (4xCR123A)
HO-M4 9.2V 2.15A 550 Lumens

We are not going to make 7V 3A for 2 x 17670 Rec.B as it would probably need double clicks and the output would be about 500 to 550 Lumens which is not much difference to EO-M3T.

The release date of the M Series will be mid May.

Thanks guys.


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## mdocod (Apr 27, 2007)

> We are not going to make 7V 3A for 2 x 17670 Rec.B as it would probably need double clicks and the output would be about 500 to 550 Lumens which is not much difference to EO-M3T.


I wouldn't make a lamp like that for 17670s either, but for 18650s, specifically the ones AW sells, AWs protected 18650s will deliver up to about 3.5A with no double clicking required... just a thought 


there are no 17500 cells anywhere on the market(that i am aware of) specified to deliver a 2.4A load safely. The EO-M3T would only be usable with primary cells or an extender or other configuration, minimum cell size for a 2.4A load is 18500/17670. Though I think many users would consider this a reasonable risk. (it's not very far "out of range," only about 10% over spec)

The rest of the offerings are all perfect IMO, again, filling the niches in the market that could really use the attention. This is awesome!


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## [email protected] (Apr 27, 2007)

Mdocod,

I am sorry that I forgot to mention the following:

The EO-M3T is designed for M4 that uses 2x17670 Rechargeable batteries configuration or 3xCR123A configuration in M3T.

The lamp assemblies for M3T and M4 have the same LCL, and use the same type of base. The HO-M3T can also be used in M4 using two 17670 Rec. batteries for longer runtime.

Thank you again for your support.

Mark


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## AR_Shorty (Apr 27, 2007)

M4 with 500 lumens....drooling....


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## mdocod (Apr 27, 2007)

> The lamp assemblies for M3T and M4 have the same LCL, and use the same type of base.



and I believe the M6 also uses that same lamp design.... :wink:

so all ya have to do now, is make a 13V 3A bulb, for use with 6 RCR123 in the M6, or 3x18650s in a leaf 3x18650 body. Something like that could be nearly 900 bulb lumens.


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## Owen (Apr 28, 2007)

I'll be in for a couple of EO-M3 lamps. 
A LO-M3T might sell....clone the N2 since SF discontinued it. 
I'd like to see a 3.5A 7.2V lamp that would hit in between the MN21 and MN20.


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## Rommul (Apr 28, 2007)

Owen said:


> I'd like to see a 3.5A 7.2V lamp that would hit in between the MN21 and MN20.



Seconded.


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## dradee1 (Apr 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> HO-M4 9.2V 2.15A 550 Lumens


 
What batteries would you use to run this lamp?


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## [email protected] (Apr 29, 2007)

*For M4: (4xCR123A)*
HO-M4 9.2V 2.15A 550 Lumens


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## dradee1 (Apr 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> *For M4: (4xCR123A)*
> HO-M4 9.2V 2.15A 550 Lumens


 
Isn`t that a instaflash? I thought the stock M4 bulbs are 12volt..


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## mdocod (Apr 29, 2007)

at 2.15A, a CR123 sags to about 2.3V, hence, the 9.2V bulb design. Fresh out of the pack, the cells will deliver about 2.6V per cell into this load for a few seconds, the bulb will tolerate the overdrive of about 10.4V without an issue.


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## dradee1 (Apr 29, 2007)

mdocod said:


> at 2.15A, a CR123 sags to about 2.3V, hence, the 9.2V bulb design. Fresh out of the pack, the cells will deliver about 2.6V per cell into this load for a few seconds, the bulb will tolerate the overdrive of about 10.4V without an issue.


 
The more I try and learn the less I seem to understand  Are the stock M4 bulbs 12volt?


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## mdocod (Apr 29, 2007)

> Are the stock M4 bulbs 12volt?



try not to think of a 12V bulb as nothing but a 12V bulb.

take for example, a 12V halogen lamp for track lighting. some are rated "12V, 35W 450 lumen, 4000 hours".... .... Now, if we were to take the same bulb, and drive it at 18V instead, it would become a 18V, 65W, 1850 lumen, 30 hour, bulb.

so to answer your question, yes, a M4 bulb is a 12V bulb, but it is also an 11V bulb, a 10V bulb, and a 9V bulb, and pretty much any voltage that it will run on without exploding, but there is a range where the bulb life and lumen output is balanced well for tactical lights. 

a MN60 is roughly a 10.4V, 15W bulb
a MN61 is roughly a 9.0V 22.5W bulb

LFs new M4 bulb will be about a 20W bulb.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Apr 30, 2007)

mdocod, that's the clearest, most common-sense explanation of "nominal voltage" I've ever read! STICKIE!


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## Raoul_Duke (Apr 30, 2007)

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> mdocod, that's the clearest, most common-sense explanation of "nominal voltage" I've ever read! STICKIE!




The Dudes on fire at the mo  
Loads of great theory coming from you at the mo mdocod.
Realy enjoying your posts.


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## mdocod (Apr 30, 2007)

i've been out of work on a back injury, so I've had a LOT of time lately to read and write on here... too much perhaps... I think it's a sickness all by itself... I'm having way too much fun!, lol.


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## Novaflash (Apr 30, 2007)

Does anyone know about the beam shape for the LOLA LF lamp assembly for the M3. I dont like the squashed beam I get with the MN10, I know it is focused for throw but something more oval or even circular would be awesome.


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## Strauss (Apr 30, 2007)

If it's anything like their other LA's, I suspect it will throw farther than the MN10 with a smaller....but tighter hot-spot with a bit less lumens out the front.


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## mdocod (Apr 30, 2007)

Personally, I would estimate the HO-M3 to fall in as follows:
(on fresh off the charger 17500 cells)
MN10: 9.5W, 145 lumen
HO-M3: 12W, 225 lumen
EO-M3: 15.5W, 290 lumen
MN11: 19.5W, 350 lumen (unsafe, for comparison only)

by comparison, the MN11 on primary cells, is actually probably dimmer than the EO-M3 on 17500s. ~250 lumen.


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## batman (Apr 30, 2007)

would any of these lamp assemblies work in the M6 the way the MN-15 does? ie., the M6 X-LOLA as discovered by js.


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## mdocod (Apr 30, 2007)

I would be willing to bet that the HO-M3T and EO-M3T would both work fine in the M6 on primaries.


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## alantch (May 31, 2007)

It's been a while. I just checked the LF site and there seems to be no bulbs for the M series yet.


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## [email protected] (May 31, 2007)

They are at the studio taking product photos, I will post some photos taken myself here tomorrow.

Sorry for the delay, we ran into some problems with the box and it caused us 2 weeks.

Thanks

Mark


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## Per Arne (May 31, 2007)

Hi,

Would it be possible to use the HO-M4 in M3 Bezel? If not, which lamp could be used in this setup; M3 Bezel + M4 Body + 4x 123A Lithium batteries?

Thanks,

PA


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## sygyzy (May 31, 2007)

These are designed to work with R123's right, not standard CR123's?


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## mdocod (May 31, 2007)

The M3 lamp design is kindof a M3-only size assembly. The M3T, M4, and M6, and the KT1, KT2, and KT4 turbo heads all use the same lamp assembly design. So you can not use M3 lamps in the turbo heads (the rest), and vice versa.

As it is now, I am not aware of ANY lamp that would work on 4xCR123s in an M3 bezel, they're all ~9V lamps.


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## sygyzy (May 31, 2007)

Sorry, I just saw Lumens Factory and was refering to the E series. My mistake.


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## alfonso2501 (May 31, 2007)

I’ll be keeping an eye on this thread!:huh:


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## Per Arne (Jun 1, 2007)

Hi, and thank you for your reply mdocod 

Since the M3 Bezel would fit the M4 Body, I can only use MN10/MN11 Lamp with 3x 123A lithium and a dummy... or MN10 with 2x 17670?

I recon the same set-up goes for the new Lumens Factory lamps?

Thanks again for you help!

PA


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## mdocod (Jun 1, 2007)

you can use the MN10 or MN11 like you mentioned, or any M3 lamp from LF (when they come out) in a M3 bezel on a M4... but like you said, power source will have to be 3 CR123s with a dummy, or 2x17670 would work GREAT!

I suggest a 2x18650 leefbody with M head, M3 bezel, and M3 style lamp, that way you have a more compact head than the big turbos, and lots of power to play with. (run any M3 style lamp twice as long as it runs on 3xCR123 and anywhere from 25-75% brighter depending on the lamp)


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2007)

Here you go guys, this is a photo I took at home. 

We are waiting for the offical product photos to be taken at the studios.
We release the new series when it is done, which will probably be somewhere next week. 

Thanks 

Mark


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## Telkin (Jun 1, 2007)

Wow Mark, they look great! Can't wait to get some for my M Series. Aluminum base too?! 

Could you let us know what the configurations you are planning to unveil? That way we'll know exactly which ones we want to order when you open up the sale.

Also thanks for the Golf shirt! Much appreciated!

Cheers,

Ken


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## sixshooter_45 (Jun 2, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Yes guys, I have been reading.
> 
> But I have been very busy lately with new projects, so sorry for the late update on the Series.
> 
> ...


 
Hi, Mark

Wouldn't the EO-M3 7.2V, 2.0A, 380 Lumens require 2 clicks also since the max discharge rate is 1.5C; 1.1A x 1.5C = 1.65A, or am I missing something here, wouldn't be the first time, lol 

I know I can't run my MN11, M3 HOLA on the 17500 without a double click, (which I hate), but the MN10 is no problem with single click. 

MN10 M3 LOLA - *1.30A* (on 2x17500 Li-Ion)
MN11 M3 HOLA - *2.50A* (on 2x17500 Li-Ion)



*17500 SPECIFICATIONS:*
Model : LIR 17500 
Constant Voltage : 3.7V 
Capacity : 1100mAH ( min. 1000mAH ) - tested at 0.2C discharge with end voltage 3.0V 
Internal Impedance : < 180 m Ohm ( 1KHz ) 
Ambient Temperature 
for Standard Charge : 0 C ~ 45 C 
for Discharge : -20 C ~ 60 C 
Max. Discharge Rate : 1.5C 
Dimensions :17 X 51mm ( +/- 0.5mm ) 
Weight : 30 ( +/- 2 ) g


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## mdocod (Jun 2, 2007)

sixshooter

The reason you are having to double click is the cells, not the lamp. There are cells available that are still protected for your safety, but were designed with lightign up high current lamps without the need for "tapping" tailcaps.

AWs "new" 17500s, Wolf-Eyes LRB-150B, and Pila 300S (all 17500 in size) will light up SF HOLAs on 1 click, however, it is advised against to do this with any cell smaller than an 18500, due to the extreme current requirements of the HOLA lamps... The 2.0A draw of the LF lamp will work fine on 17500 sized cells, the 2.5-2.75Amp of the HOLA lamps is too much for safety concerns, (I am currently using a 2.0A EO-9 in a 2x17500 configuration with flawless results). 

I'm assuming you got those "LIR" model cells from a fleabayish sortof dealer. The protection circuits in those cells were never designed with lighting up bulbs. They are designed for lower current applications with lower startup surges.

click on the link in my signature for a more detailed breakdown on cell choices.


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## LED61 (Jun 2, 2007)

Mark, I guess the M3T EO will run well in the SF M6 and Fivemega's 2S3P 17500 battery holder ? How about some development of an extreme output LA for the M6 running on that same battery setup ? Or, if the current draw is too high then go to a lamp that will put out close to the WA 1185 1200 bulb lumens running on Fivemega's 3S3P 9x17500 holder. Just imagine how many people would go wild with an M6 and a LF 13V bulb for this setup and go for something like 800 torch lumens? You would not have to fool around with bi pin sockets and WA 1185 bulbs anymore.


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## dradee1 (Jun 2, 2007)

I really wish you guys would make a 13v bulb for the M4, now that would truly be a awsome bulb.


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## sixshooter_45 (Jun 3, 2007)

mdocod said:


> sixshooter
> 
> The reason you are having to double click is the cells, not the lamp. There are cells available that are still protected for your safety, but were designed with lightign up high current lamps without the need for "tapping" tailcaps.
> 
> ...


 
mdocod, the Model : LIR 17500 was my mistake if these are not the new AW's 17500 batteries, I had copied this info. from here somewhere awhile ago.

I do have the new Protected 17500 ( 1100mAH ) ---- $10.00 each **New Cell* batteries from AW and they will light the M3 HOLA on the first click but only *a few times*, after that they need a double click.

"I am currently using a 2.0A EO-9 in a 2x17500 configuration with flawless results"

I am obviously misunderstanding the the formula for the maximum discharge rate which I thought was 1100mah or 1.1A x 1.5C = 1.65A, of course these are the specs. from the LIR models.

I will take a look at your sig link, already saved, and need to finish reading Battery University.

Thanks for your time and feedback.


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## mdocod (Jun 3, 2007)

The new cells are rated up to 2C, and into a 2A load of a EO-9, they deliver about 1AH, so it's about 2C current draw. The EO-9 will always light up on 1 click... I can see where the 17500s would start to require multiple taps after a few minutes runtime on a SF HOLA lamp. My 17670s starts to require multiple taps towards the end of a run into a P91. 

Definetely avoid using the SF HOLAs on anything smaller than 18500 though. It's really hard on those 17500s. The EO-9 and EO-M3 will be fine though, and work without multiple taps on AWs *new* 17500s, or Pila or WE cells.


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## alantch (Jun 3, 2007)

Will the EO-M3T will fit the KT1 head? What' would be the estimated runtime for this bulb on 2 x P18500 from AW and the estimated torch lumens, as opposed to the 450 bulb lumens quoted by LF?


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## mdocod (Jun 3, 2007)

copied directly from the compatibility chart... (link in signature)

Cell configuration: 2x18500

Bulb Options:
SF MN15: 9.5W, 75 min, 155 lumen
SF N2: 9.5W, 75 min, 155 lumen
SF MN16: 20W, 25 min, 355 lumen
SF MN20: 19W, 25 min, 300 lumen
LF HO-M3T: 15.5W, 35 min, 300 lumen
LF EO-M3T: 18.5W, 25 min, 340 lumen

Body Options:
Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT2 ++
Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++


these are esimtated inicial torch lumens... The KT1 and KT2 are the same thing, they just come with different lamps... I should probably revise this in the chart.


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## batman (Jun 4, 2007)

let me know when they (Lumens factory) make a lamp assembly for the M6 Guardian, if they can. I would also like to see an A2 Aviator lamp assembly.


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## falconz (Jun 4, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> As for the A2, it is a good next choice I think.



Finally!!!
Can't wait!! My bulb's blackening already!


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## DM51 (Jun 4, 2007)

[DREAM]
EO-A2 .... 200 bulb lumens
HO-A2 .... 150 bulb lumens
SR-A2 .... 100 bulb lumens
ES-A2 .... 50 bulb lumens
[/DREAM]


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## alantch (Jun 4, 2007)

Is it possible to run the HO-M4 bulb using 2 x 18500? What kind of output and runtimes can be expected, if it runs at all? From the specs it sucks less amp compared to the EO-M3T, produces more output but requires a higher voltage to run.


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## leukos (Jun 4, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> As for the A2, it is a good next choice I think.


 


Just remember that too much additional heat could have an adverse effect on the LEDs.






.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 4, 2007)

DM51 said:


> [DREAM]
> EO-A2 .... 200 bulb lumens
> HO-A2 .... 150 bulb lumens
> SR-A2 .... 100 bulb lumens
> ...


What? The EO-A2 needs to be _at least _250 lumens, unless you are talking torch lumens.

The Aviator puts out 75 torch lumens. A decent upgrade requires 50% more lumens than that to be a true improvement.


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## DM51 (Jun 4, 2007)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> What? The EO-A2 needs to be _at least _250 lumens, unless you are talking torch lumens.
> 
> The Aviator puts out 75 torch lumens. A decent upgrade requires 50% more lumens than that to be a true improvement.


I am delighted to stand corrected! Any advance on 250 lm?


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## mdocod (Jun 4, 2007)

I wonder if the regulator built into the A2 could even handle anything but the bulb it's designed for. Depending on the design, it may be very difficult to match bulbs to it unless you know the behavior of the regulator board itself, and higher powered bulbs would be much more likely to burn up the regulator.. which could cause people to try to pull warrenty claims, which may have not been SFs fault, which could create putrid relations between LF and SF. Sticking to building lamps that are "in-range" of the stock lamps for other flashlights is a good idea because it can't break anything that a SF lamp couldn't break, but th regulated A2 should be treaded on carefully.


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## LED61 (Jun 4, 2007)

Well put mdocod!! I would dare think you are absolutely correct.


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## Russianesq (Jun 4, 2007)

http://www.lumensfactory.com/ not working


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## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2007)

mdocod,

Indeed, IF we are going to make anything for the A2, it would be something in the range of the stock lamp.

There would probably be 2 models, one is the highest output lamp we can pull off in that range, the outer would be a lamp similiar to the stock one with a higher colour temperature.

But let's not turn this thread into a A2 discussion. :laughing:


Okay the M Series will be released tomorrow, we have the stock ready, but the guys at IT might not be quick enough to update the site yet. 
So, I will think of something, hopefully they can have them up tomorrow.

Thanks 

Ps. Russianesq, the site is working fine, maybe it is just a temperary server problem when you clicked our site. 

Mark


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## alantch (Jun 6, 2007)

Mark, just checked your website and the bulbs are already listed. However, is it correct that the 550 lumens HO-M4A is listed as a 7.2V bulb?


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## [email protected] (Jun 6, 2007)

Thanks for pointing out this mistake, it has been corrected.
It should be a 12V lamp, design voltage is 9.2V.

Thanks again.

Mark


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## adamr999 (Jun 6, 2007)

There goes more money :twothumbs I can't wait to receive my order.
Thanks Mark.


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## wmugrad28 (Jun 6, 2007)

How are these bulbs offering higher output and higher runtime at the same time? It seems like this would dramatically shorten the time to say 10 minutes instead of the 40 minutes list in the example below.

Ex (on CR123A)
M3T HOLA = 250 lumens, 20 minutes
M3T LOLA = 125 lumens, 60 minutes

HO-M3T = 380 lumens, 40 minutes

Also, are the lumen ratings the starting point or the halfway point like I have heard that Surefire does?

Greg


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## mdocod (Jun 6, 2007)

wmugrad

this has been discussed many times over in various threads about these lamps.... but to recap.. here's how it breaks down..

LumensFactory lists bulb specifications on their specifications page of their website. The specifications are listed as [email protected]@[email protected]@life. They are bulb lumens at the listed voltage. So asking whether this is "starting" brightness or "halfway" is kindof hard to answer, because it depends on what cells you use to drive the bulb with. In some cases it will actually be BRIGHTER than the listed lumens, and in some cases it will be dimmer, and WHEN the listed output occurs during a run will depend entirely on how well the cells you choose to run the lamps can maintain voltage under a load, and how much resistance you have between the cells, through the switch, to the bulb, etc.

As you know, Surefire de-rates their lamps heavily to reflect something closer to "average" torch lumens through a run. So the numbers can not be directly compared, they must be "equalized" so to speak, to be on the same playing field. 


Having said that, LumensFactory lamps are optimized more for efficiency and output, Surefire lamps tend to be optimized more towards longevity, so for the same power consumption, the LF lamps tend to have an edge on intensity. But again this varies depending on how you drive which bulb.

Try not to use lumen values to determine what you "think" runtimes should be.. look at power consumption. A LF lamp that draws 1.2A, is going to have the same runtime as a SF lamp that draws 1.2A.


You can convert LumensFactory bulb lumens to torch lumens. Multiply by 0.65. 

Keeping in mind, that SF is de-rated a little blow that point..

I have run the numbers and to the best of my ability equalized a "playing field" for tactical lamp assemblies. The results can be found in the compatibility chart (link in signature)... Almost every tactical lamp assembly and battery configuration is listed with estimated lumens, watts, and runtime.


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## Telkin (Jun 6, 2007)

I got my order in. Can't wait to try these out in my M3T!


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## sixshooter_45 (Jun 6, 2007)

Cool, I just ordered my EO-M3 7.2V 2.0A 380 Lumens for my M3-CB, oh-yeah! :twothumbs


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## defusion (Jun 6, 2007)

sixshooter_45 said:


> Cool, I just ordered my EO-M3 7.2V 2.0A 380 Lumens for my M3-CB, oh-yeah! :twothumbs


where are you ordering this??
i can only see them in "new products" at the site, and can't order from there.
i don't see them in the online shop.


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## defusion (Jun 6, 2007)

Mark;

The HO-M4A description states:


> Compatible with:
> 
> Surefire®
> M4 using 4 x CR123A Rechargeable
> ...



I'm assuming "rechargeable" was a mistake?


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## sixshooter_45 (Jun 6, 2007)

defusion said:


> where are you ordering this??
> i can only see them in "new products" at the site, and can't order from there.
> i don't see them in the online shop.


 
Here, just check the price Box and order. :twothumbs I think they are currently working on their website but that link should work.


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## defusion (Jun 6, 2007)

sixshooter_45 said:


> Here, just check the price Box and order. :twothumbs You can also look under New Products.


thanks! just put in the order for the EO-M3!


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## sixshooter_45 (Jun 6, 2007)

yw, I'm thinking of getting an extension and then ordering some 17670's for approx. 45 min. runtime.

Then again I may just run my 17500's, since I already have 3 pairs for a shorter runtime of about 30 min. of

almost 300 guilt free "glorious Lumens", LOL, sorry I got carried away! I'd like to keep current length due to the sexy look of the M3-CB, which would also alow me to spend the extender length money on more 17500's.


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## LED61 (Jun 7, 2007)

Usually, there is some advantage or brightness edge from LF bulbs vs. surefire. And I know the EO M3T is intended for the M3T, not the M6, though it can be used in the M6. But, please correct me if I'm mistaken, I don't see any advantage of this lamp when compared with the MN20. Or is it brighter ?


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## [email protected] (Jun 7, 2007)

defusion said:


> Mark;
> 
> The HO-M4A description states:
> 
> ...


 
That was a typo, it has been corrected.
Sorry about the typos as our website guys knows nothing about lamps.
If you guys finds anymore mistakes, please feel free to sent me a PM.

LED21,

The EO-M3T is not designed to be used on the M6. if you use the EO-M3T on your M6 with 6 x CR123A, it will instaflash the lamp. As the same thing will happen when you put a MN16 in your M6, no mircles here. 

How are you going to use the EO-M3T on the M6 anyways? It could only fit 6 x CR123A or 3 x 3.7V Rechargeables which is way to much voltage. Unless you put a bunch of dummies in the M6, there is no way to use the lamp, be it a EO-M3T or a MN16.


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## mdocod (Jun 7, 2007)

Mark- I think you might be a bit confused about the M6..

yes it holds 6 cells, but only sets of 3 are in series. The MN20 and MN21 lamps for the M6 are "9V" lamp assemblies.... more specifically.... they are targeted for about 7.5V and about 6.75V respectively. People use MN15 lamps from the M3T all the time in the M6 as a low output lamp.. runs a little whiter and more efficient this way than it does in the M3T.

Your M3T lamps would more than likely work without a hitch in an M6- with less life expectancy however. Wouldn't be much different than running on a good pair of 18650s.


PS: that's why I keep saying you should slap one of your 13V globes on an "MT" lamp assembly, then you could load up an M6 with li-ion RCR123s and run it just fine. Would be about the same oomf as a 3x18500 configuration.


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## LED61 (Jun 7, 2007)

Mark, I was planning on using it with Fivemegas 2S3P 6X17500, 3300 mah 7.2 V battery holder with the 26 mm. extender. It will fly real well but don't know if it will be brighter than the MN20.



[email protected] said:


> That was a typo, it has been corrected.
> Sorry about the typos as our website guys knows nothing about lamps.
> If you guys finds anymore mistakes, please feel free to sent me a PM.
> 
> ...


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## mdocod (Jun 7, 2007)

LED61... in your configuration I think you are right that the MN20 and EO-M3T would be fairly similar... is that a regulated pack or direct-drive?


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## LED61 (Jun 7, 2007)

Hello mdocod, Fivemega´s pack is direct drive, and I would purchase it specific to drive the EO M3T. I do have Wquiles 7.5V regulated pack with JS beautiful NIMH battery pack and Willie Hunt´s LVR. This LVR has been modified by Wquiles to output 7.5V for the MN20 instead of the original 6.8V for the MN21. It would also work very well with the EO-M3T. Fivemega´s pack has much more runtime and would do the same thing, but there is no real advantage if it is not brighter than the MN20. Of course as you stated above you could also run the EO-M3T with the original factory MB20 battery holder in the M6. The MN15 is a real beauty in the M6. The MN16 cannot be run because it is already overdriven on one stack of primaries and would probably blow in the M6.


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## mdocod (Jun 7, 2007)

I'm concerned that the EO-M3t may take a beating in that 6x17500 configuration, it's just a huge amount of abailable current, If all resistance is kept low, I would imagine the lamp will see close to 8V for the first few minutes fresh off the charger. Anyone tested the Bulb voltage on a fresh charge on an MN20 before with that pack? 

The MN20 is about a 7.5V lamp, would probably handle that direct drive pack reasonably well, probably seeing more like 7.8V or more on a fresh charge(guessing here)...

The EO-M3T is about a 7.2V lamp, which would probably be fine on ~7.5V you could expect from a standard M6 CR123 configuration. but might not take the DD ~7.8+V from the FM pack as well... I think the 7.5V regulated pack would probably work best with the EO-M3T.


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## waynejitsu (Jun 7, 2007)

mdocod said:


> I'm concerned that the EO-M3t may take a beating in that 6x17500 configuration, it's just a huge amount of abailable current, If all resistance is kept low, I would imagine the lamp will see close to 8V for the first few minutes fresh off the charger. Anyone tested the Bulb voltage on a fresh charge on an MN20 before with that pack?
> 
> The MN20 is about a 7.5V lamp, would probably handle that direct drive pack reasonably well, probably seeing more like 7.8V or more on a fresh charge(guessing here)...
> 
> The EO-M3T is about a 7.2V lamp, which would probably be fine on ~7.5V you could expect from a standard M6 CR123 configuration. but might not take the DD ~7.8+V from the FM pack as well... I think the 7.5V regulated pack would probably work best with the EO-M3T.




Anyone know where I can get a FM pack?


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## LED61 (Jun 7, 2007)

mdocod said:


> I'm concerned that the EO-M3t may take a beating in that 6x17500 configuration, it's just a huge amount of abailable current, If all resistance is kept low, I would imagine the lamp will see close to 8V for the first few minutes fresh off the charger. Anyone tested the Bulb voltage on a fresh charge on an MN20 before with that pack?
> 
> The MN20 is about a 7.5V lamp, would probably handle that direct drive pack reasonably well, probably seeing more like 7.8V or more on a fresh charge(guessing here)...
> 
> The EO-M3T is about a 7.2V lamp, which would probably be fine on ~7.5V you could expect from a standard M6 CR123 configuration. but might not take the DD ~7.8+V from the FM pack as well... I think the 7.5V regulated pack would probably work best with the EO-M3T.


 
Yeah the MN20 is actually whiter the first two minutes on fresh primaries than with the 7.5V regulated pack, so I'm guessing it gets about 7.6-7.7 V the first two minutes on fresh primaries. If the EO M3T cannot handle at least the MN20 voltage, so long. I'm willing to give it a try though and have already ordered an EO M3T, I'll test it with primaries on the MB20 and the 7.5V regulated pack as well and will report. Can these be ordered from PTS yet ?


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## mdocod (Jun 8, 2007)

LED61 said:


> Yeah the MN20 is actually whiter the first two minutes on fresh primaries than with the 7.5V regulated pack, so I'm guessing it gets about 7.6-7.7 V the first two minutes on fresh primaries. If the EO M3T cannot handle at least the MN20 voltage, so long. I'm willing to give it a try though and have already ordered an EO M3T, I'll test it with primaries on the MB20 and the 7.5V regulated pack as well and will report. Can these be ordered from PTS yet ?



but will the MN20 handle the unregulated pack?


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## sixshooter_45 (Jun 8, 2007)

LED61 said:


> Yeah the MN20 is actually whiter the first two minutes on fresh primaries than with the 7.5V regulated pack, so I'm guessing it gets about 7.6-7.7 V the first two minutes on fresh primaries. If the EO M3T cannot handle at least the MN20 voltage, so long. I'm willing to give it a try though and have already ordered an EO M3T, I'll test it with primaries on the MB20 and the 7.5V regulated pack as well and will report. Can these be ordered from PTS yet ?


 
Yes they can be ordered, see my above post and click on the "here" link.


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## LED61 (Jun 8, 2007)

I'm not sure mdocod, as I don't own one. But CPF member Max52 owns one and once told me the MN20 did great on it, but a no no in the MN21. If you have three stacks of 2 in series 4.2 V bats, what do you supose the initial sag in voltage will be, down to 3.9V perhaps ?


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## mdocod (Jun 8, 2007)

into a MN20 or EO-M3T (same power category), each cell only has to deliver ~0.83A... Most 17500s will start off around 4.1V into that load, the losses due to resistance in the connections between the cells, the switch, and the points of contact for the lamp, are what would help get the bulb voltage down below the 8.2V that it probably would be. So yea.. I estimate that the end result is about 7.7-8.0V at the bulb.... but I'm really just guessing..

Assuming 8.0V at the bulb.. the EO-M3T would deliver over 600 bulb lumens inicially. But it's really hard to know how much resistance to expect.


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## [email protected] (Jun 8, 2007)

Yes, I am sorry about the mistake.
I have been very busy lately and must have my mind slipped.

Anyways, we have NEVER tried the EO-M3T on a M6 configuration, so therefore we must be conservative about it and tell you that it is not recommended.

Again, if you try something funny, we will NOT refund or replace it for free. :shakehead

I have made sure that this first shipment of the M Series will be flawless by testing them all (about 200 units) personally already (part of the reason why I have been very busy lately) and will be doing so again when we ship each one out, that will be done by someone else. So we are quite sure it will not instaflash using the correct set up recommended.

PS. Product photos are up for the M Series.


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## LED61 (Jun 8, 2007)

Mark, you do well of course not to recommend the EO M3T in the M6. However, I'll make sure your bulb gets tested with the stock MB20 and report back and wont ask for any refunds if anything goes wrong. This is what CPF is all about right ? I'll also test it with my regulated pack though this is truly a unique configuration not available to anyone else so it wont do much good. But I'll test it in with the MB20 and will compare it with the MN20 bulb. Order incoming.


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## AR_Shorty (Jun 8, 2007)

So when you do the lumen measurement coversions, etc. - is LF's HO-M4 visibly brighter than the standard HO bulb that comes with the M4 or is it roughly the same but adding increased runtime with the LF assembly? I like things to be simple.


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## ampdude (Jun 9, 2007)

jsr said:


> Ah crap...why'd you have to go and do that? Now I HAVE to buy an M3 head and an C2M adapter to run a rediculously bright bulb in my C2+Detonator. I guess it's ramen again...even worse, when I was in college (way back), I lived off a sack of potatoes for a month...you think ramen for a month is bad, try potatoes (and no, I didn't have anything else to make nice, yummy, fancy potato dishes...just a microwave and a fork).




Holy crap.. I would have tried to find somebody's lawn to mow or something..


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## mdocod (Jun 9, 2007)

AR_Shorty said:


> So when you do the lumen measurement coversions, etc. - is LF's HO-M4 visibly brighter than the standard HO bulb that comes with the M4 or is it roughly the same but adding increased runtime with the LF assembly? I like things to be simple.




It's probably more inbetween, leaning towards the HOLA in output levels. (probably pretty close, so as to be hard to compare), but is using a little less power. 

I'd put it in line in "SF" lumens as follows:
1. MN60: 225
2. HOM4: 325
3. MN61: 350

keeping in mind that I have never seen or tested the new M series lamps in person.. and probably never will (as I can't afford M series flashlights, lol)... So this is just educated speculation. 

But I would say that regardless of whether the HO-M4 is brighter than the MN61, I would use it because it's lower power consumption means you are getting a more efficient use of CR123s, and the difference in output would be practically impossible to see with the eyes anyways. It's a better sweet spot for a balance of intensity and runtime IMO.


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## defusion (Jun 9, 2007)

mdocod said:


> It's probably more inbetween, leaning towards the HOLA in output levels. (probably pretty close, so as to be hard to compare), but is using a little less power.
> 
> I'd put it in line in "SF" lumens as follows:
> 1. MN60: 225
> ...


but will it still be cheaper considering the bulb will driven harder, thus you having to buy more bulbs. all this if you actually use the light enough to burn trough one ofcourse.


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## mdocod (Jun 10, 2007)

well...

assuming you get 35 minutes of runtime on the HO-M4, 20 minutes on a MN61. (I double checked the runtime/discharge graphs of the tests performed on CR123s by Silverfox... and there are 3 "cheap" brands (tenergy, batterystation, and titanium) that will deliver ~35 minutes into a HO-M4 type load. However, there is only ONE cheap cell that will deliver 2.5A that the MN61 demands for ~20 minutes. That's the titanium cell.... The point of mentioning this... is that achieving the rated runtime of the HO-M4 is easier with a wider variety of budget priced value cells... The other point I would like to make, is that the BEST performing cell in the 2.5A(MN61) tests, gave 2 watt/hours of capacity. While the best performing cell into a 2A load (close to the HO-M4) gave over 2.5 watt/hours.. that's a 25% gain in usable power, just by stepping down the power demands by 25%... The point is, that above 2 amps, CR123s start to fall on their face, and really waste a huge amount of power into heat. The other point I would like to make... is that if SureFire were really in the business of making the best stuff for the customer, they would have stepped their HOLAs down to around 2 amps instead. As it stands now, they are wasting huge amounts of available power in CR123s trying to itch out a final 10-20% light intensity. Which is unnoticeable to the eye... SureFire is in the business of selling primary cells in mass. Not in the business of maximizing the efficiency of their product. That's very apparent to MY EYE, lol...


sorry totally ranting there...



Assuming $23 for the HO-M4, and $25 for the MN61, $1 for a CR123. (not going to include shipping costs in comparison)

Assuming the LF bulb will last an average 20 hours, and the Surefire bulb will last an average 30 hours (I looked it up, their FAQ page says their incandecent lamps are rated for 30 hours average life).

We'll compare 60 hours of use, since both bulb lives divide into 60.

Assuming 3 HO-M4s for 60 hours, batteries replaced 103 times x $4 per change.
Assuming 2 MN61s for 60 hours, batteries replaced 180 times x $4 per change.

Operating cost of HO-M4s over 60 hours: $481
Operating cost of MN61 over 60 hours: $795

Now just for fun:
Operating cost of a comparable performing light on rechargable li-ion cells over 60 hours: $100-150
over 500 hours: ballpark ~$700, still less than the cost of running MN61 for 60 hours. (includes replacing the cells 3 times, and replacing a $25 lamp 25 times.)


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## defusion (Jun 10, 2007)

mdocod said:


> well...
> Now just for fun:
> Operating cost of a comparable performing light on rechargable li-ion cells over 60 hours: $100-150
> over 500 hours: ballpark ~$700, still less than the cost of running MN61 for 60 hours. (includes replacing the cells 3 times, and replacing a $25 lamp 25 times.)


Now if only it were more aimed at the rechargeable market, by making it a 13v bulb!
I see your point with the running on primaries though, pretty huge price gap indeed!


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## AR_Shorty (Jun 11, 2007)

Thanks for the explanation mdocod! :thumbsup:


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## BBL (Jun 11, 2007)

mdocod, i think surefire just doesnt care about runtime with their 20min-high output bulbs.

They want the maximum available brightness for just a few seconds - as much as the cell can provide for that time, tactical use in mind.


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## defusion (Jun 11, 2007)

BBL said:


> mdocod, i think surefire just doesnt care about runtime with their 20min-high output bulbs.
> 
> They want the maximum available brightness for just a few seconds - as much as the cell can provide for that time, tactical use in mind.


But the fact is, you can get the same output with less power, but then the bulb would run harder, and die quicker. This is what lumensfactory is doing, they make a bulb with lower life expectancy (20hr instead of 30hr) but with higher efficiency.
in the long run it's cheaper, and just as bright, it just shifts towards more bulbs and less batteries.


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## mdocod (Jun 11, 2007)

the difference between 20 and 30 hour lifespan is 3% voltage variation at the bulb.. that can be the difference in battery brand you choose..


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## defusion (Jun 12, 2007)

mdocod said:


> the difference between 20 and 30 hour lifespan is 3% voltage variation at the bulb.. that can be the difference in battery brand you choose..


keep in mind surefire's bulb life ratings are understated like most of their specs, so it's probabably a bit more then 3%.


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## brightspot (Jun 12, 2007)

can 3x18650's be used for the HO-M4A?


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## mdocod (Jun 12, 2007)

lol... ok... try this one on for size...

it takes 3% more voltage to get a Surefire lamp to be as bright as the 20 hour rated competition. do you still like you're statement about understated life?


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## defusion (Jun 12, 2007)

brightspot said:


> can 3x18650's be used for the HO-M4A?


thats gonna be some serious overdrive (15% overdrive at nominal voltage, slightly over 31% overdrive at initial voltage)!
i wouldn't try it, but i'm sure someone will eventually.

if your running 3 18650's on a SF turbohead, i suggest sticking to the MN60, which is the only bulb i would expect to survive the initial voltage "surge".

if you can consistently manage to top off your li-ions at around 3.9v (i suppose about 80% charge?), you will probably get away with running either the MN60, MN61 or HO-M4A. me? i think that setup is way to long anyway, so for stupid-bright i would rather go for 2 c li-ions and the MN21.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 12, 2007)

brightspot said:


> can 3x18650's be used for the HO-M4A?


It should be fine. But try it with cautions.


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## mdocod (Jun 12, 2007)

Hello Brightspot!
The HO-M4A has the following specifications as I understand it:
9.2V, 2.15A, 550 Lumens, 20 hour life.

Under that load, CR123s sag to about 2.3-2.4V, (you can see this effect by looking at the cr123 shootout done by silverfox.. it's in the batteries section threads of interest), after resistance to the lamp is taken into consideration, the 9.2V target build is ideal for 4 CR123s. 

A quick look at the li-ion shootout (same place as above), reveals that most li-ion cells around 2amps will still hold up around 3.7-3.9V at the start of a discharge, so even after resistance to the lamp, you can expect some pretty severe overdrive on 3 cells, approaching ~11V at the lamp...

I can tell ya, it won't survive that very well.


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## brightspot (Jun 12, 2007)

anyone else? lol


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## brightspot (Jun 12, 2007)

ok thanks I guess I won't try it I thought it sounded to good to be true


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## defusion (Jun 12, 2007)

brightspot said:


> ok thanks I guess I won't try it I thought it sounded to good to be true


pretty much the reason i wish they would've made a 13v (or technicaly a ~11v nominal, 13v peak one) version, which WOULD handle rechargeable's.
not only for 3x18650, but more so for the surefire M6 running on RCR123's


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## mdocod (Jun 12, 2007)

that's exactly what I'm hoping they'll come out with (the "13V" M series)


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## the fuzz (Jun 13, 2007)

So when lumen factory states
HO-M4A (12V, 550 Lumens) High Output Lamp Assembly.

Is this the same lumen term SF products use on there lights?

On face value that would mean if i got this HO-M4A for my M4 would it be as equall as bright as a sure fire M6 ( HO lamp 500 lumens ?)

I read on this thread
"You can convert LumensFactory bulb lumens to torch lumens. Multiply by 0.65. "
500x .65 =325
According to the above formual would it be 325 lumens ?
(how is the fig .65 come about?)

Im confused


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## defusion (Jun 13, 2007)

the fuzz said:


> So when lumen factory states
> HO-M4A (12V, 550 Lumens) High Output Lamp Assembly.
> 
> Is this the same lumen term SF products use on there lights?
> ...


optical losses going from bulb to reflector trough lens average about 35%
surefire states the output when it leaves the lens, while lumensfactory gives you the lumens at the bulb.
there's more to it then that, but this is a good guesstimate.


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## the fuzz (Jun 13, 2007)

wow i dint know that 

Thanks Very much for that explanation defusion


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## the fuzz (Jun 13, 2007)

so basically the difference b/t most of the M series bulbs compraed to the SF equvelent is at best 50 lumens better( when factoring M series Bulb lumen x .65 = SF lumens rating ) 

Is 50 lumens more lumens visible to the eye 
Wondering if there the same price is it best ti stick to SF bulbs or go for the m series bulbs
eg
HO-M4A (12V, 550 Lumens) High Output Lamp Assembly = 357 lumens SF + 10 min more run time compared to SF M4 HOLA 350 lumens


Anuy one have beam shots of the m series bulbs comapring to the sf equivelence


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## defusion (Jun 13, 2007)

the fuzz said:


> so basically the difference b/t most of the M series bulbs compraed to the SF equvelent is at best 50 lumens better( when factoring M series Bulb lumen x .65 = SF lumens rating )
> 
> Is 50 lumens more lumens visible to the eye
> Wondering if there the same price is it best ti stick to SF bulbs or go for the m series bulbs
> ...


read mdocod's calculation on the M4 with MN61 (HOLA), and the M4 with HO-M4A. In the long run using the HO-M4A is way cheaper!

but IMO it's mostly the M3 bulbs that are really nice, as the top-of-the-line EO-M3(T) produces about the same lumens as the MN11/MN16, but is more efficient, and can therefore be safely used with rechargeable li-ion batteries! This was the biggest reason for me to order one.
hasn't arrived just yet though, and i suspect only some people in asia might have it already, as thats where it's shipped from.
My package was sent out the 11th, so I'll probably receive it next monday if past purchases from that region serve as an indicator.


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## Rommul (Jun 13, 2007)

Most.

Informative.

Thread.

Ever.


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## defusion (Jun 16, 2007)

I have just received my EO-M3, and its working perfectly!
When it's getting dark, i'll make some beamshots to compare it to the MN11.
but even in daylight, you don't want to look into that beam!


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## flex76italy (Jun 16, 2007)

Please. anyone try the EO-M3T in KT1-2 head? 

Thanks.


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## defusion (Jun 16, 2007)

flex76italy said:


> Please. anyone try the EO-M3T in KT1-2 head?
> 
> Thanks.


internal dimensions of KT1,2 and 4 are the same, so it should work.


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## defusion (Jun 16, 2007)

Here is a comparison between the EO-M3 and the MN11 bulb on the freshest of fresh 17500's (right of the charger, even swapped between changing bulbs )
EO-M3: http://defusion.nl/files/IMG_1421.JPG
MN11: http://defusion.nl/files/IMG_1422.JPG

Both shots taken indoors (with beam pointed at slightly gray wall) at approx. 5ft with light free in hand, so excuse the not being perfectly centered.
The most notable difference is the color temperature. EO-M3 is REALLY white.
The other thing is that the EO-M3 has a slightly bigger hotspot, but thats not really apparent unless you really examine it.


----------



## mdocod (Jun 16, 2007)

same exposure settings used there or no?


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## defusion (Jun 16, 2007)

can't be sure. to adjust for lighting conditions you have to press and hold the 2-stage button for a second or so untill it beeps, and then press further to make the picture. i did that with the EO, and it should've kept the settings when i took the next picture without waiting on the beep, and going for full click immediately.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 17, 2007)

defusion said:


> Here is a comparison between the EO-M3 and the MN11 bulb on the freshest of fresh 17500's (right of the charger, even swapped between changing bulbs )
> EO-M3: http://defusion.nl/files/IMG_1421.JPG
> MN11: http://defusion.nl/files/IMG_1422.JPG
> 
> ...


EO-M3 is really an impressive upgrade for the M3. Beautiful color temp without the oval shape. Great job Lumens Factory!!


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## the fuzz (Jun 17, 2007)

wow thanks there great pics thank you

If you used a normal cr123a batteries would the results be the same ?


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## defusion (Jun 17, 2007)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> EO-M3 is really an impressive upgrade for the M3. Beautiful color temp without the oval shape. Great job Lumens Factory!!



please do keep in mind, the camera auto balanced on the EO-M3, so it just took that color temperature as "white". and the MN11 is less white, so the camera shows that as yellow. in real life, the difference isn't as apparent as it looks in the picture, but you can definitely see the difference.



the fuzz said:


> wow thanks there great pics thank you
> 
> If you used a normal cr123a batteries would the results be the same ?


i will get back to that this evening, so check back in about 10 hours


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## BBL (Jun 17, 2007)

I measured my EO-M3T at 1.45A. Shouldnt that be much more? (18650 Cell voltage without load 7.4V)

The ouput color is how it should be, and it is definitive brighter than an MN15.


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## flex76italy (Jun 17, 2007)

defusion said:


> internal dimensions of KT1,2 and 4 are the same, so it should work.



The theory says that it work, but really, the module have a perfect focus in KT head reflector?


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## ampdude (Jun 17, 2007)

defusion said:


> please do keep in mind, the camera auto balanced on the EO-M3, so it just took that color temperature as "white". and the MN11 is less white, so the camera shows that as yellow. in real life, the difference isn't as apparent as it looks in the picture, but you can definitely see the difference.
> 
> 
> i will get back to that this evening, so check back in about 10 hours




Can I ask that you do the color balance on the MN11 first instead and then see how the EO-M3 looks and post it?


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## Glen C (Jun 18, 2007)

Defusion, how do you rate the LF quality compared to SF. I have just had stock of the M series arrived and was impressed by the quality, just wondered what you thought as a SF owner?


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## defusion (Jun 18, 2007)

Glen C said:


> Defusion, how do you rate the LF quality compared to SF. I have just had stock of the M series arrived and was impressed by the quality, just wondered what you thought as a SF owner?


the EO-M3 looks great. very well made. can't say much about the internal stuff, but i assume it's just as good.
the surefire bulbs are pretty good too, but they don't have that nice aluminum look. also, they show some plastic (PCB-ish?) where the battery spring is, which looks a bit less sturdy, but it doesn't show in anything but looks. and really, i don't care much for how the lamp assembly looks after being inserted.


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## defusion (Jun 18, 2007)

ampdude said:


> Can I ask that you do the color balance on the MN11 first instead and then see how the EO-M3 looks and post it?


i'll do that in about 2 hours, they usually turn off the sun around then.


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## duckpotatoes (Jun 18, 2007)

hey guys, good to see this site is back up, it was gone or something.
I see Lumens factory has the M turbo's, now, awesome!
Do i have to run the " protected's" with a bored m4 with the EO -m3T?
Not sure which bulb would suit my needs, using current 18650 unprotecteds. 
thanks


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## adamr999 (Jun 18, 2007)

I received my HO/EO M3T's today and they are a nice improvement over the standard lamps. 
Also, I tested them both in a M6, and they both worked great. 
I have a few initial observations:
1. M6 with HO-M3T seems brighter that M3T with MN16 or EO-M3T.
2. M3T with HO-M3T is significantly brighter than with MN15 (as it should be).
3. Some of the bulbs needed cleaning after examination.
4. M6 with HO-M3T is much better than with MN15.
5. I wish I had two M6's for comparison with MN20.

These are only observations, so please don't quote me

Maybe I will give beam shots a try tonight.


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## defusion (Jun 18, 2007)

ampdude said:


> Can I ask that you do the color balance on the MN11 first instead and then see how the EO-M3 looks and post it?


MN11: http://defusion.nl/files/MN11.JPG
EO-M3: http://defusion.nl/files/EO-M3.JPG

As you can see, the increase in whiteness is hardly apparent in this example.
sadly i can't change the exposure time on my camera, otherwise we might get some more detailed pictures of the beam characteristics.
but believe me, both are very very bright, but the EO-M3 has the advantage of being able to run rechargeable 17500's safely, without any loss in brightness. oh yeah, the beam is a bit rounder then the MN11 aswell...


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## Owen (Jun 18, 2007)

I'd really like to see the EO-M3T vs. MN16. It will be awhile before I can do that comparison, because I only ordered a couple of HO-M3s, and a HO-M3T to start out with. 
This thread is making me wish they'd hurry up and get here, though it should be a few more days. I'll probably do comparisons of both vs. the MN15, MN16, and each other, since I have only one M3 bezel, but two turboheads.


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## adamr999 (Jun 18, 2007)

Owen said:


> I'd really like to see the EO-M3T vs. MN16. It will be awhile before I can do that comparison, because I only ordered a couple of HO-M3s, and a HO-M3T to start out with.
> This thread is making me wish they'd hurry up and get here, though it should be a few more days. I'll probably do comparisons of both vs. the MN15, MN16, and each other, since I have only one M3 bezel, but two turboheads.



It is really hard to tell the difference between the EO-M3T and MN16, maybe tonight I will be able to give a definitive answer with beam shots.


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## Abrams.357 (Jun 18, 2007)

Will the HO-M4A fit in the SC2 spares carrier?


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## LED61 (Jun 18, 2007)

adamr999 said:


> I received my HO/EO M3T's today and they are a nice improvement over the standard lamps.
> Also, I tested them both in a M6, and they both worked great.
> I have a few initial observations:
> 1. M6 with HO-M3T seems brighter that M3T with MN16 or EO-M3T.
> ...


 
Observation number one is probably due to the bulb pulling current from two stacks instead of only one in the M3T, even if the MN 16 and EO-M3T bulbs are rated higher. 

Could you please comment on the M6 with the EO M3T please?


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## adamr999 (Jun 18, 2007)

LED61 said:


> Observation number one is probably due to the bulb pulling current from two stacks instead of only one in the M3T, even if the MN 16 and EO-M3T bulbs are rated higher.
> 
> Could you please comment on the M6 with the EO M3T please?



I was just testing the HO-M3T as a alternative to the MN15 as an X-LOLA.

For the M6 with the EO-M3T, it has smaller and seemingly brighter hotspot than the MN20 does in the M6. 
I will take some beamshots tonight with the following combos.
*M3T* with: MN16, HO-M3T, EO-M3T
*M6 *with: MN15, MN20, HO-M3T, EO-M3T


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## adamr999 (Jun 18, 2007)

Abrams.357 said:


> Will the HO-M4A fit in the SC2 spares carrier?



The HO/EO M3T lamps both fit in the SC2 spares carrier. I would imagine it would fit as they are basically the same design. I hope this helps.


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## Abrams.357 (Jun 18, 2007)

yup that pretty much awnsers it! thanks :goodjob:


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## ampdude (Jun 18, 2007)

adamr999 said:


> 1. M6 with HO-M3T seems brighter that M3T with MN16 or EO-M3T.



Probably because with the M6 there are 6 cells, 3 in parallel with 3 other, so the current draw and therefore the voltage sag is less on them.

The MN16 and EO-M3T are higher draw lamps on only three cells, so they sag badly compared to the 6 cells on HO-M3T configuration.



> 3. Some of the bulbs needed cleaning after examination.


All of the EO-E2R's in my last order were dirty and had gunk on them. I cleaned off what I could with isoprophyl alcohol and then ran them a bit. Then I spent about twenty minutes scraping the rest of the stuff off that had baked on with a sharp pocketknife and cleaned them once again with alcohol.

I was not really happy about having to do that.


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## ampdude (Jun 18, 2007)

defusion said:


> MN11: http://defusion.nl/files/MN11.JPG
> EO-M3: http://defusion.nl/files/EO-M3.JPG
> 
> As you can see, the increase in whiteness is hardly apparent in this example.
> ...




Those are excellent pictures, thank you!! I have been running an MN11 on 17670's for several months now. I'll be getting some 18500's to run it on instead in the near future as I don't like the extra length of a 4 cell light either.


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## adamr999 (Jun 18, 2007)

ampdude said:


> Probably because with the M6 there are 6 cells, 3 in parallel with 3 other, so the current draw and therefore the voltage sag is less on them.
> 
> The MN16 and EO-M3T are higher draw lamps on only three cells, so they sag badly compared to the 6 cells on HO-M3T configuration.




In previous posts in this thread interest was expressed in the use of EO/HO M3T lamps in a M6. I am totally aware of the voltage sag being less in the M6.


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## adamr999 (Jun 19, 2007)

I can't seem to take effective beamshots:sigh: (my camera is too simple). I will try again tomorrow with a different camera. 

Sorry if I got anyones hopes up.:mecry:


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## leukos (Jun 19, 2007)

defusion said:


> the EO-M3 looks great. very well made. can't say much about the internal stuff, but i assume it's just as good.
> the surefire bulbs are pretty good too, but they don't have that nice aluminum look. also, they show some plastic (PCB-ish?) where the battery spring is, which looks a bit less sturdy, but it doesn't show in anything but looks. and really, i don't care much for how the lamp assembly looks after being inserted.


 
That polycarbonate spacer on SF lamps is a very nice feature as it helps to deflect the heat of the lamp away from the batteries.


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## the fuzz (Jun 19, 2007)

Got afew questions on what type of rechargable batts i should buy 
like to grab the EO/ m3t & m3 and HO-M4A

Will the EO-M3T lamp work SAFELY with the following configs :
1/ A SF M3T configuration (4x cell) with 2x 17670s batts?

2/ A SF config M3T(3x cell) x2 17500 batts ?

3/ Will EO-M3 work with 2x 17670s (4x cells),ie non turbo head + an extender.

And if i stick an L6 on the above will the L6 work ?

4/ Will a 17500 batts charger, charge and 17670s batts as well ?

thanks ALL


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## defusion (Jun 19, 2007)

the fuzz said:


> Got afew questions on what type of rechargable batts i should buy
> like to grab the EO/ m3t & m3 and HO-M4A
> 
> Will the EO-M3T lamp work SAFELY with the following configs :
> ...


1) yes
2) yes
3) dunno, i expect so, but have to technical specs on the L6 regulator
4) depends on charger, i don't know any that won't. but there are a few that need a spacer for the 17500's


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## Art Vandelay (Jun 19, 2007)

I just got the 150 lumen 2X 3.7 kind, and the 90 lumen 1X 3.7 kind. I am happy with the beam.

I am having a problem with them. Maybe I am doing something wrong. They seem to work fine when I put in the bulb, but if I click them off and on a few times they seem to lose contact and they turn off. If I take off the head and put it back on, the light works again. I am using E1E and E2E bodies.

Any suggestions?


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## Owen (Jun 19, 2007)

I doubt the EO-M3T is going to work very well with 2x17500, since its current draw is about the same as a MN16, which requires a double tap, isn't as bright as on larger cells, and is straining the cells, too. 


Art, those are E series lamps, and this is the M series thread


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## defusion (Jun 19, 2007)

Owen said:


> I doubt the EO-M3T is going to work very well with 2x17500, since its current draw is about the same as a MN16, which requires a double tap, isn't as bright as on larger cells, and is straining the cells, too.
> 
> 
> Art, those are E series lamps, and this is the M series thread


the EO-M3 works perfectly, it's right on the edge, but because of it's increased efficiency compared to the MN11, it works perfectly. requires no double taps. it's the main reason for getting one IMO.
the EO-M3T is the same as the EO-M3, just longer so it fits in a turbohead.
sure, it's going to be more strain then the HO-M3(t), but it works, and personally i don't need my rechargeables to last 500 runs. hell, even 10 runs would mean it was cheaper then using primaries!


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## Owen (Jun 19, 2007)

The EO-M3T has a higher draw than the EO-M3, as has been brought out in this very thread, and NO it will not work well with 17500s.


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## Paladin (Jun 19, 2007)

the fuzz said:


> 2/ A SF config M3T(3x cell) x2 17500 batts ?
> 
> And if i stick an L6 on the above will the L6 work ?


 
I just got a *pair of protected 17500's* from Lighthound yesterday. Fresh off the charger, I measured the tailcap current with several lights on hand, including a pair of Surefire L6's.

SL TL-3 xenon pulled 1.25, 1.11*, and 1.11* amps (three lights)
SL TL-3 LED's pulled 410 and 400 mA (two lights)
Pelican M3 LED 650 mA
SF N2 in a KT2 1.15 A

*Surefire L6's pulled 530 and 520 mA.* Both pulled 500 mA on three primaries. Should be a safe combo IMO.

Paladin

*_the newer "shockproof" lamps seem to draw less current than the older bi-pin lamps, btw._


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## mdocod (Jun 19, 2007)

I'm quite confident that I already pointed out that the EO-M3T should not be used in a 2x17500 configuration earlier in this thread..


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## defusion (Jun 19, 2007)

Owen said:


> The EO-M3T has a higher draw than the EO-M3, as has been brought out in this very thread, and NO it will not work well with 17500s.


you're right, just spotted this!
EO-M3T is at 2.4amps, which isn't safe for 17500's
they should've called it the HO-M6 or something (as thats the only stock SF light that would run it. all other combinations require boring out, extending, or giving up the capability to use primaries, or plain getting an entirely new body.). this is a bit confusing.


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## Owen (Jun 19, 2007)

Yeah, we gotta be careful to make sure we're matching up our stuff right!
I ordered the HO bulbs for both M3 and M3T, mainly because I wasn't comfortable with the draw on the EOs from 17500s. I'm getting them both bored for 18500s, but still wanted to keep drain on the cells reasonable. 2C may work fine, but I'm happier keeping it 1.5C or below, as most manufacturers seem to recommend. 'Course I'm also trying to keep runtimes decent, since I use these lights a lot.


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## mdocod (Jun 19, 2007)

if anyone wants to double check configurations.. I'm pretty sure I have all the common safe configurations including the new LF-M lamps in the configuration chart. good place to double check if in doubt.


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## the fuzz (Jun 19, 2007)

thanks alot for clearing this confusing subject 

Looks like ill be getting a combination of the two batts to use the eo -m3 and eo -m3t

or i may just get the 17670s batts since ill be using the eo- m3t (4 cell config ) 90 % of the time .

So its not ok too go over the amps but its ok to go under the amp 

Will this config blow the bulb?
EO-M3 x 2 17670 .
I dont think it will but i need verification

thanks again The fuzz


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## defusion (Jun 19, 2007)

the fuzz said:


> thanks alot for clearing this confusing subject
> 
> Looks like ill be getting a combination of the two batts to use the eo -m3 and eo -m3t
> 
> ...


yes, that would work. the 17670's are like 17500's, but longer so 2 of them fit a 4 cell body (instead of a 3 cell), and have a higher capacity.
this higher capacity is directly related to the maximum (safe) amperage it can deliver. the 17670's would work well with the EO-M3T.
They would also work well with the MN16, and possibly the MN20 (but don't quote me on that last one)


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## the fuzz (Jun 19, 2007)

Im getting abit confused b/c in the 1st page of this thread

[email protected]




vbmenu_register("postmenu_1989403", true); 






stated normasl configs

EO-M3T 7.2V 2.4A 450 Lumens

This was then questioned then afew post down from that page he states

"The EO-M3T is designed for M4 that uses 2x17670 Rechargeable batteries configuration or 3xCR123A configuration in M3T.

The lamp assemblies for M3T and M4 have the same LCL, and use the same type of base. The HO-M3T can also be used in M4 using two 17670 Rec. batteries for longer runtime."


But this new info hasnt been amended to Mark @LF initial lamp config 1st post


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## mdocod (Jun 19, 2007)

> and possibly the MN20 (but don't quote me on that last one)



BUAHAHAAHHA I quoted you !!!! you can't stop me!!! muahaahaahah!!!


ok ok.. 

I can confirm that an MN20 can be used with 17670s, it just won't be as white and bright and efficiant as a MN11/MN16/EO-M3T, but would have longer bulb life.


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## defusion (Jun 19, 2007)

ok, lets make a list of things that should work (i'm not saying these are officially supported)

HO-M3
M3 with CR123's or 2x17500's
M3 + extender with 2x17670's
2x18650 leefbody + m3 bezel with 2x17670's or 2x18650's

EO-M3
M3 with CR123's or 2x17500's
M3 + extender with 2x17670's
2x18650 leefbody + m3 bezel with 2x17670's or 2x18650's

HO-M3T
M3T with CR123's or 2x17500's
M3T + extender with 2x17670's
M4 with 2x17670's
M6 on primaries

EO-M3T
M3T with CR123's
M4 with 2x17670's
2x18650 leefbody + kt4 on 2x17670's or 2x18650's
M6 on primaries

HO-M4A
M4 with primaries

thats most of them, I'm sure i left out some really obscure one's.


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## mdocod (Jun 19, 2007)

copied directly from the charts.....(CR123 configs added)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 3xCR123

Bulb Options:
LF HO-M3T: 
LF EO-M3T:

Body Options:
SF M3T +++
SF M3 +KT4 ++
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF 9P, C3, (G3?), +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++
Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17500

Bulb Options:
LF HO-M3T: 15.5W, 25 min, 300 lumen

Body Options:
SF M3T +++
SF M3 +KT4 ++
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF 9P, C3, (G3?), +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++
Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x18500

Bulb Options:
LF HO-M3T: 15.5W, 35 min, 300 lumen
LF EO-M3T: 18.5W, 25 min, 340 lumen

Body Options:
Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17670

Bulb Options:
LF HO-M3T: 15.5W, 40 min, 310 lumen
LF EO-M3T: 18.5W, 30 min, 350 lumen

SF M3T +1 cell extender ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF M3 + 1 cell extender, +KT4 ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF M4
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +TWO 1 cell extenders, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF 9P, C3, (G3?), + 1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x18650

Bulb Options:
LF HO-M3T: 16W, 55 min, 325 lumen
LF EO-M3T: 18.5W, 45 min, 370 lumen

Body Options:
Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 3xCR123

Bulb Option:
LF HO-M3: 
LF EO-M3: 

Body Option:
SureFire M3 (non-turbo) +++
Leefbody 2x18500 adapted to M head with M3 bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17500

Bulb Option:
LF HO-M3: 12W, 40 min, 220 lumen
LF EO-M3: 15.5W, 25 min, 285 lumen

Body Option:
SureFire M3 (non-turbo) +++
Leefbody 2x18500 adapted to M head with M3 bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x18500

Bulb Option:
LF HO-M3: 12W, 55 min, 225 lumen
LF EO-M3: 15.5W, 40 min, 295 lumen

Body Option:
Leefbody 2x18500 adapted to M head with M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17670

Bulb Option:
LF HO-M3: 12W, 55 min, 230 lumen
LF EO-M3: 15.5W, 40 min, 300 lumen

Body Option:
SureFire M3 + 1 cell extender ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
Surefire M4 with M3 head/bezel +++
Leefbody 2x18650 M head with M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x18650

Bulb Option:
LF HO-M3: 12.5W, 80 min, 250 lumen
LF EO-M3: 16.5W, 60 min, 310 lumen

Body Option:
Leefbody 2x18650 M head with M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


[edit in 6-22] inserting disclaimer:
LF lamps were originally tested for fitment and compatibility on only stock M3, M3T and M4 flashlights. As it stand now, there isn't a 100% guarantee that they will work on KT series turbo upgrade heads. It's theoretical.


----------



## the fuzz (Jun 19, 2007)

thanks defusion and mdocod and the rest of your input looks like its the 17670 all the way 



BTW

How do u bore out the tubes , do you need to take the tubes to a metal Smith ??


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## Owen (Jun 21, 2007)

Well, I got my lamps yesterday as I was leaving for work. 
The good news is that one of the HO-M3s gives one of the most perfect beams I've ever seen from an incan, with bright, perfectly even spill, not a single artifact, and a bright hotspot that fades into the spill, and a slight oval shape, not nearly as pronounced as similar SF, and most of the other LF offerings. Like a Wolf Eyes D26 on steroids, with great overall output assuming the current draw numbers are correct(I haven't checked). I love it.

The bad news is quite bad. The other HO-M3 doesn't have a perfect beam, matter of fact the hotspot is off-center and has a hole in it. 
The HO-M3T got its keeper tube crushed and splintered at the top, along with the negative spring getting screwed up in shipping, but the springs are easily removed, and the one from my bogus HO-M3 fits it just fine. The globe is crooked, but I don't know whether that affects the beam or not. I never will know, since none of those things matter, as the pedestal that the globe is mounted on is too big, anyway, and doesn't fit in either my KT2 or KT4 turboheads. 
Probably be a good idea for everyone to check each of their lamps rather than just sticking one in a spare carrier with the assumption that it'll fit in their lights--just tried the HO-M3T in a SC2 while typing this up, and had to use a screwdriver to pry it out after forcing it in. 
I actually bought a M3T in anticipation of these bulbs, so I'm more than a little displeased.


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## NYCblue (Jun 21, 2007)

I too was prepping the funds to purchase a turbohead for these bulbs. I guess I'll put the money on hold until (no pun intended) we can shed some more light on this.


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## sixshooter_45 (Jun 21, 2007)

I just received my EO-M3 7.2V 2.0A 380 Lumens, :twothumbs, from LF and it has a very nice round hot spot with excellent side spill and noticeably brighter than my M-10 LA in my SF M3-CB using two AW's 17500.


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## [email protected] (Jun 21, 2007)

Owen,

It seems like your lamps might be mishandled quite badly during shipping. 

If one of your keeper tube is crushed to the point where the spring is messed up, then it has a high chance of moving the position of the bulbs in the package as well, resulting in bad focus.

About the fitting problem on the KT4, I would like to know a little more detail on this. As you know, I have checked every single one with my own hands.
Please sent me a PM on this issue.

Don't worry, I will get this solved and make you a happy customer at the end.


Thanks

Mark


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## adamr999 (Jun 21, 2007)

All four of the lamps I purchased fit in my SC2.


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## mdocod (Jun 22, 2007)

Howdy Owen,

I'm curious about your experience there... Sounds like you have some major shipping damage or something there.. But the main thing that concerns me... is that the one M3T lamp is not fitting anywhere....

Just to recap: you have the following (you kinda threw it all in a flowing paragraph, I want to make sure I understand the cercumstance here)

1 perfect HO-M3
1 bent HO-M3
1 HO-M3T that does not fit into a spares carrier, a KT2 or KT4,

Now... yo mentioned that you ordered an M3T in anticipation of these lamps.... Has that arrived yet? if you get a chance please try to see if it fits there, so we can rule out all possibilities. 

I'd love to see a picture of the offending M3T lamp next to one of your other MN SF lamps...


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## defusion (Jun 22, 2007)

my plastic tube was cracked too, but didn't think too much of it, as it isn't exactly the sturdiest thing i've ever seen. it's just there to keep the foam protection in place IMO.


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## Owen (Jun 22, 2007)

mdocod said:


> 1 bent HO-M3


No bent HO-M3. It just doesn't focus like the other one. 
I do have the M3T. That's what my KT4 is on. 
A pic really won't show anything except a bent spring. I can do a pic later if you just want to see these lamps side by side with SureFire LAs.
I'm not having any luck with turbohead lamp assemblies right now. In the past week, I also fried two MN16s(the second one last night at work) on 2x18650 that I need to post a warning about

Since my package obviously suffered some damage during shipping, I'm going to avoid speculating about what might have caused "this and that" about my HO-M3T, and PM Mark to see about getting some replacement LAs.


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## Manzerick (Jun 22, 2007)

Hey Folks,


Is there a bulb that will work with a M4 that uses 3 Pila 600s's?


If not, I can easily take out the A19 extenders to get more lumens


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## mdocod (Jun 22, 2007)

I guess what I am confused about is, if you have a M3T, then why did you need a KT4 on it? Or was it an M3 upgraded to M3T with a KT4?


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## adamr999 (Jun 22, 2007)

mdocod said:


> I guess what I am confused about is, if you have a M3T, then why did you need a KT4 on it? Or was it an M3 upgraded to M3T with a KT4?



I believe the KT4 is the standard bezel on all of Surefire's turbo lights.


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## mdocod (Jun 22, 2007)

well... As I understand it, the KT1, KT2, KT4, and Milleniom heads should all fit the same lamps, regardless.. I wasn't sure if there was a cosmetic difference of the KT4 compared to what would normally ship with a M3T/M4/M6... trying to figure out some stuff is all... Think it's a bum lamp.


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## senna94 (Jun 24, 2007)

This may have been covered already, but I was wondering how long it for most of you to get your lamps in the U.S. from Asia. I ordered mine yesterday and was just wondering about how long I will be waiting.


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## Owen (Jun 25, 2007)

mdocod said:


> I wasn't sure if there was a cosmetic difference of the KT4 compared to what would normally ship with a M3T/M4/M6...


The KT4 is what ships on the M3T, M4, M6. 

senna, usually ~10 days for me.


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## tick398 (Jun 26, 2007)

A question for those who have been using the EO-M3T in an M6 on primaries. How long of a runtime are you getting from this particular combination?

Also, would it be fair to say that the output of the EO-M3T would fall between the MN20 & MN21 in an M6?

Thanks!


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## adamr999 (Jun 26, 2007)

tick398 said:


> A question for those who have been using the EO-M3T in an M6 on primaries. How long of a runtime are you getting from this particular combination?
> 
> Also, would it be fair to say that the output of the EO-M3T would fall between the MN20 & MN21 in an M6?
> 
> Thanks!



The beam characteristics are different between the MN20 and the EO-M3T, with the MN20 being larger and the EO-M3T being tighter and whiter. 
Keep in mind this is speculation, but I would say the hotspot from the EO-M3T seems brighter, which is probably a result of more proper focus, but the MN20 puts out more light. 

The MN21 is in a different league.:naughty:

I cannot comment on runtime, but the but the bulb hasn't blown yet.


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## BBL (Jun 27, 2007)

The official specs are up, it cleary says 2.4A for the EO-M3T. 
I measured 1.45A. Besides that, the bulb seems to work very well.

Could someone else measure the current draw of their EO-M3T?


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## Gordov2 (Jul 10, 2007)

I have to say a big thank-you to MDOCOD for his charts! They are truly helpful! I can't even begin to imagine how long that took you to put together!

Anyway, I have my LF EO-M3, and I love it on my M3-CB -- on primaries, or 17500's!


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## ampdude (Jul 10, 2007)

Owen said:


> No bent HO-M3. It just doesn't focus like the other one.
> I do have the M3T. That's what my KT4 is on.
> A pic really won't show anything except a bent spring. I can do a pic later if you just want to see these lamps side by side with SureFire LAs.
> I'm not having any luck with turbohead lamp assemblies right now. In the past week, I also fried two MN16s(the second one last night at work) on 2x18650 that I need to post a warning about
> ...




Owen, do you know what the starting voltage was on the 18650's that you used with the MN16? Were they new lamps? Which charger are you using?


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## Owen (Jul 11, 2007)

Starting voltage was usually around 4.25V, though there was some variance. I was using the Ultrafire WF-139 charger. I'm now using the Pila IBC charger that has consistently charged all the batteries I've tried in it to 4.19-4.21V, with the majority being dead on 4.20V. I still won't be trying another MN16. I don't see how 1/10 of a volt could make much difference in the whole scheme of things. The new charger was for the sake of my batteries, particularly the new ones that I haven't used yet, and whose performance I don't want to affect by overcharging(I was ignorant of the shortened lifetime that comes with charging over 4.2V until very recently). 

btw, I received my replacement HO-M3 and HO-M3T from Lumens Factory last week. Haven't tried the HO-M3 they sent me, but am using the HO-M3T in my M3T, and it is great. The beam is very much like the N2's. Almost round, with a bit of oval as the spot fades at the edges, but with brighter and perfectly even spill, plus a larger, brighter spot (not surprising at almost double the current draw). Wonderful. The spot is actually brighter than a MN21's in a KT2 running off unprotected 18650s. 'Course the MN21 is using 2.5 times the current, has a spot three times as big, and is putting out a LOT more light... 
Anyway, I liked it enough that I added another HO-M3T plus a EO-M3T to an order from Lighthound, and they should be here tomorrow.


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## brunt_sp (Sep 13, 2007)

Interesting thread. I've been using the EO-M3 in preference to the MN11, so now it's time for me to try the EO-M3T instead of the MN16.


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## Bushman5 (Sep 14, 2007)

Hi [email protected], do you have a High Output Cree LEd for the Wolf Eyes M100 flashlight? currently i'm using the stock 12V incandesenct lamp with 4 CR123 lithiums, but want to upgrade to a longer lasting LED.


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## christrose (Sep 17, 2007)

I purchased a couple of EO-M3T two months ago.
I have been satisfied with the brightness, beam pattern, hier color temp.
However, when I tried another one yesterday, it did not fit to my KT-4.
I measured the diameter of both, but there is no difference by my cheap calipers.
It seems like Owen's experience. Does anyone have a similar situation?


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Sep 17, 2007)

Bushman5 said:


> Hi [email protected], do you have a High Output Cree LEd for the Wolf Eyes M100 flashlight? currently i'm using the stock 12V incandesenct lamp with 4 CR123 lithiums, but want to upgrade to a longer lasting LED.


Lumens Factory is a manufactor of incandescent lamp assemblies. They don't deal with LEDs.


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 17, 2007)

Getting back to Owen, who posted in June with MN16 problems with two 18650's, js and others has been cautioning people about using that setup. It just can supply to many volts to the MN16 which is rated voltage wise lower than the MN15, and is really set up for only 3XCR123 which provide a voltage sag to the MN16 requirements. The P91, essentially the same bulb as the MN16 in a different package, can have the same problems.

Bill


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## brunt_sp (Sep 18, 2007)

So does this mean people are going to have even more problems if they are intending to use the P91 or MN16 with a BigLeef tube and two of AW's C cells.


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 18, 2007)

brunt_sp , there is the potential for the MN16 to flash, and certainly the C LiIons would hold the voltage fairly high. The MN16 with three CR123's runs at 6.8 volts and is not considered an underdriven bulb. Running the MN16 in the M6 runs it at 7.2 volts or so and two C Lions would run it at similar voltage. 

Bill


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## mdocod (Sep 18, 2007)

fresh off the charger it's very possible to be up around 7.4V (or higher) into a MN16 (or equivalent) when driving with 18650s or "C" size li-ions. especially fresh off a charger. That's what's nice about the LF lamps, with target voltages of 7.2V with 20 hours life there, they are really much more tolerant to li-ion configurations. For example, a EO-M3T re-rates to about 15 hours life when dealing with "fresh" large li-ion cells, (it would deliver about 15 hours on average, of you ran it ONLY on fresh cells, meaning recharging after every few minutes of use). Whereas by my calculations, the MN16 is closer to 8-10 hours re-rated life if used in this same fashion, and what we tend to see when getting down near 10 hours re-rated life, is a lot more premature insta-flashing. This tends to be the case with many hotwire mods as well, people shoot for 10 hours life or so with halogens for that amazing white output, but they have an increased risk of instaflash.


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## vestureofblood (Mar 2, 2017)

Anyone know if it's ok to over drive a 500 lumen surefire M6 bulb using 2x li-ion? I thought I read somewhere years back that it might


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## archimedes (Mar 2, 2017)

Check here ... 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/161536

... and here ...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/204157

... ?


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## fivemega (Mar 2, 2017)

vestureofblood said:


> Anyone know if it's ok to over drive a 500 lumen surefire M6 bulb using 2x li-ion? I thought I read somewhere years back that it might


*MN21 is a 5 Amp bulb and no protected cell can power up this guy.
It is possible to use pair of IMR which can handle this kind of current draw but depending on total resistance of flashlight and size/health of batteries, it will be severely overdriven or poof.
Some people reported poof and some happy with short run time and bulb life.*


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## vestureofblood (Mar 2, 2017)

archimedes said:


> Check here ...
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/204157



OOOOhhhhh. Good thread. I love the new LED power, but a part of me very much misses the good old days when words like 1185 and 5761 were the hot button. So refreshing. 



fivemega said:


> *MN21 is a 5 Amp bulb and no protected cell can power up this guy.
> It is possible to use pair of IMR which can handle this kind of current draw but depending on total resistance of flashlight and size/health of batteries, it will be severely overdriven or poof.
> Some people reported poof and some happy with short run time and bulb life.*



Thanks FM. I think what I'll do is just drain the cells a bit and then use my AW soft start. So far the best setup I've got for M6 is with your adapter and a wa1111 equivalent. I'm guessing this MN21 will be a Tom Brady (throws a football), but since I've got it I'll sure use it.


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## archimedes (Mar 2, 2017)

It's worth some effort to try to find a PhD-M6 pack ....


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