# A question for all you cavers...



## Brian321 (Mar 16, 2010)

I need a new headlamp to mount on my helmet for caving. I dont really know whats out there that is good quality( Im still sort of new to caving). I am looking to spend around $300.00 but my max limit is around $500.00( if its a awesome light). Thanks for all the help.


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## ryan162 (Mar 16, 2010)

Brian321 said:


> I need a new headlamp to mount on my helmet for caving. I dont really know whats out there that is good quality( Im still sort of new to caving). I am looking to spend around $300.00 but my max limit is around $500.00( if its a awesome light). Thanks for all the help.



-go cheap(they get banged up) 
-go light weight for HL (~hours on your head gets heavy) 
-EDC them and inspect the internals before you bring them to the cave/mine
-carry many backup Flashlights (three min including HL)
-insure fellow cavers also have backups (theres two of ya.. then its 6 cheap lights to get you out in case all hell breaks loose)
-get as many lumins as you can and enough batteries to support it for longer then you would ever need.

heres the deal. your gonna need lots of backups regardless of perceived quality and lots of raw lumins. so you can buy 1500 dollars worth of surefire products or go Chinese and be able to afford gas to get to the cave/mine


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## csa (Mar 16, 2010)

Ryan's advice is pretty good. Anything you put on your helmet is likely to get destroyed, or will (at very least) take a severe beating. Take extra lights for when that inevitably happens.

In my experience, total raw output of lumens on your headlamp may not be the only thing to think about. What may be a better strategy is a decent flood/throw combo on your head that isn't overly bright (this gives you better battery life - it's a ***** to be changing batteries every 2 minutes, and don't get me started on carrying the extras), so you don't blind yourself when you get in a tight space. If you're down there for 7 or 8 hours, that can add up to many batteries. Also, remember that your eyes are going to be adjusted to however much light there is, so a smaller, dimmer light will generally work just fine. Keep in mind that you want to carry at LEAST twice as much battery life as you plan to use.

If you've got a headlamp that is pretty balanced, you can supplement it with a handheld thrower for looking at things that are further away.


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## kevinm (Mar 16, 2010)

Hi Brian,

The Stenlight is a very nice light, as are the mid to high end Petzls and are in the $300-500 range. Check out

http://www.karstsports.com/hipohe.html

That written, I cave with a modified RiverRock/Rayovac High Beam. They are cheap ($40) and pretty good, at least with a better LED. Of the 20 or so I have made, only 2 have failed, and that was due to someone getting a good amount of water in the battery pack. I always bring enough batteries to last for 3-4 days. Better safe than blind in a hole in the ground!

Being in MO, you might want to err on the side of very waterproof. The Petzl Duo will do the trick, and is about $150. These can be upgraded too. 
Watch out for the Princeton Tec Apex. They are good lights, but not as waterproof as they claim!

Happy caving,
Kevin


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## NYCaver (Mar 16, 2010)

Some high end lights:

http://www.stenlight.com/

http://www.vipercave.com/

http://www.scurion.ch/jm/

http://littlemonkeycaving.co.uk/default.aspx

These generally won't be destroyed through regular use. If you're new to caving, or just to headlamps I wouldn't go off the deep end with gear costs yet. Try some cheaper stuff first, and borrow other people's lights. learn what you like about them so you can make informed decisions about the $$$ stuff. If you are going the cheaper route I would highly recommend the Princeton Tec Corona. It's one of the few lower end headlamps that truly doesn't have issues with water. The Petzl DUO also falls into this category. I've also heard good things about the Fenix HP10 (great value for the money). These lights are all in the ~$40 - $130 range and will serve you very well. The Princton Tec Apex is popular and I like it a lot except for the fact that it doesn't nearly live up to the 'waterproof' rating they claim.

As for backups since it was mentioned, 2 additional lights is a common rule of thumb. I'd recommend that at least one of the other 2 are head-mountable, and that they're both reliable and able to stand up to whatever you put the primary through. It's a big plus if they all use the same battery type. Happy hunting.


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## ahorton (Mar 16, 2010)

Have you considered making your own?

I think headlamps is a field where you can make a light for $100, and you end up with something that is vastly superior to most of what is on the market.

You also get the combination of throw/flood/flux/modes/battery that is right for YOU.


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## vtunderground (Mar 16, 2010)

csa said:


> ...remember that your eyes are going to be adjusted to however much light there is, so a smaller, dimmer light will generally work just fine...



Absolutely.

What kind of headlamp have you been using so far? And what do you like / dislike about it?


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## uk_caver (Mar 16, 2010)

csa said:


> Also, remember that your eyes are going to be adjusted to however much light there is, so a smaller, dimmer light will generally work just fine.


Definite agreement there, though a lot can depend on who else you cave with, and how bright they run their lights.

With my first proper home-made light, I had some very happy _solo_ exits from -600m in alpine caves running on a low flood setting of ~2lumens for everything apart from very occasional looking around or boulder-trotting, and on that setting, I could get a continuous week from one battery pack, which gives a huge feeling of security.
Currently I'm experimenting with a max 200lumen-per-LED light, but compared with the original 2004 version that was 10x dimmer, it's not 10x better, even though it can do some things better.

The advice to get something cheap and adequate to start with is excellent.
See what people around you use, and why (and what they don't use, and why), and then maybe buy the premium light if you want to, by which point you'll probably appreciate it a whole lot more after the waiting.


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## Brian321 (Mar 16, 2010)

I have been using a Zebralight H501, But im ready to upgrade to something a little brighter with better runtime. But i really dont know whats out there.


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## RedForest UK (Mar 16, 2010)

I'm by no means a regular caver, but if you want good quality for a reasonable price, and very good efficiency as well, then i'd recommend you take a look at the Fenix HP10.


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## ahorton (Mar 16, 2010)

_In a PM, Brian mentioned that he was interested in making his own light but was unsure about where to start.

_The first thing is to articulate exactly what you want. My own desires generally line up with what has been mentioned so far, but let us know what YOU want.

Something like:

max mass:
lighthead - ???g
battery - ???g

battery on head / belt / in backpack?



Modes: (fill in a table like this)

Mode............Output.............minimum runtime

_eg:
spot.............200m range.........8 hours
flood high ......1000lm..............2 hours
flood mid........200lm...............10 hours
flood low........50lm.................50 hours
flood ultra low..5 lm................1 month
flood+spot.......500lm.............4 hours

_method of changing modes: _eg single pushbutton, rotary, multiple toggles, wireless fear sensor_

Ingress protection: _eg, ok for splashing / swimming / diving etc._


These are a few things to get clear from the start, then we can suggest LEDs*, drivers, cases, batteries etc.


_*An assumption I'm making._


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## StealthZ (Mar 16, 2010)

The princeton tec apex is a great light. A couple of minutes with some RTV and some silicone grease and it's waterproofed. With the focused center light and the four 5mm LED's on each side, it's a very flexible light. 

I just spent 13 hrs in a water cave (Honey Creek) with my Fenix HP10, and it worked beautifuly. I ran it on the 50lm (medium) mode for most of the time and never had a problem. EVERYONE else had to switch to a backup light or change batteries, but I pressed on with no issues. I had quite a number of cavers mention how bright my light was. It was fun to show them that there were two levels even brighter!


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## ryan162 (Mar 17, 2010)

some good stuff in here. yeah i should mention i run 500+ lumin lights because i like to take pictures and video underground. really though if you go through the trouble of going caving, you want to see everything around you. <60 lumins may get you through but run 200+ to enjoy your soroundings. the big tourches can light up a whole cavern and show you how beautiful it is.

oh and the zebra isnt a bad headlamp choice. you want the headlamp lightwieght and floody so that when your hands are busey climbing you can see your close suroundings. your hand held lights can be the high powered rigs.


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## Brian321 (Mar 17, 2010)

*How durable is the Fenix HP10.....*

Is this head lamp good quality, durable and light? How does it compare to a ZL H501? Any info would be great. I am trying to decide if i want to buy another H501(Warm this time) or buy a HP10. Thanks.


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## John_Galt (Mar 17, 2010)

*Re: How durable is the Fenix HP10.....*

No offense, but you have 48 threads in 120 posts... Not saying that's a bad thing, but could you please take a little time to review other threads on the subjects you are wondering about, before starting a whole new thread? Repeat threads make searching for good info harder for everyone, especially new people here...

Back on topic, Fenix tends to be well regarded as a reliable, quality manufacturer. I'm sure you won't have any problems with it.


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## wingnut86 (Mar 17, 2010)

*Re: How durable is the Fenix HP10.....*



John_Galt said:


> could you please take a little time to review other threads on the subjects you are wondering about, before starting a whole new thread?



While your at it, you may as well do my dishes and change my oil...5w30 please.


Back on topic, It looks like it would be quite durable. Although, after 3 minutes on turbo, it reverts back to high on its own...that would kind of bother me.


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## TooManyGizmos (Mar 18, 2010)

*Re: How durable is the Fenix HP10.....*

John_Galt does kinda have a valid point about research b/4 postin ...........

How does it compare to a ZL H501?

ZL = a broad flood beam w/NO hot spot

Fenix HP10 = HOT spot w/lots of THROW

Opposite ends of the spectrum

One is for up-close / other is for far away

You didn't state what you intend to use it for and what your needs are ?


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## Egsise (Mar 18, 2010)

*Re: How durable is the Fenix HP10.....*

Size, HP10 is huge, check out Fenix HL20.


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## vali (Mar 18, 2010)

*Re: How durable is the Fenix HP10.....*



Egsise said:


> Size, HP10 is huge, check out Fenix HL20.



Yes, but according his posts he is searching about the best setup for caving. I dont think the HL20 is better than the HL10 for that porpouse (runtime is too short). I fact, I am pretty sure they designed the HL10 for caving in mind.


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## DM51 (Mar 18, 2010)

*Re: How durable is the Fenix HP10.....*

You have posted 2 threads on the same topic, which is prohibited by Rule 9. Please read the rules. 

Threads merged.


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## vtunderground (Mar 18, 2010)

If I was in the market for a new caving headlamp, the Fenix HP10 would look pretty good to me. You might want to leave the Zebralight on your helmet too, for when a flood beam would be more useful (like when climbing breakdown piles, or negotiating small passages).


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## ryan162 (Mar 18, 2010)

*Re: How durable is the Fenix HP10.....*



DM51 said:


> You have posted 2 threads on the same topic, which is prohibited by Rule 9. Please read the rules.
> 
> Threads merged.





John_Galt said:


> No offense, but you have 48 threads in 120 posts... Not saying that's a bad thing, but could you please take a little time to review other threads on the subjects you are wondering about, before starting a whole new thread? Repeat threads make searching for good info harder for everyone, especially new people here...




really? lol. this guys wants to actually take some flashlights out of the wrapper and he gets a background post check and his two threads merged. :thumbsdow.


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## John_Galt (Mar 18, 2010)

Because they were on the same topic. He could have either asked his questions about the HP10 in this thread, or one of several currently active ones.

It's all about searching for information. So often new members here type a new thread on a subject that is easily researched, asking the same questions a noob asked 10 hours before. Duplicate/multple (unnecessary) threads on the same topic make it harder for Everyone to search for good, useful information on the topic at hand. 

Also, many new members, Brian321 included fail to post details about what they want. Instead, as we see here, it turns into a thread-bashing fest, with many varying opinions on what is "best" for the undefined parameters. The more information about prospective uses of the light a person gives us, the more we are able to help them. Realistically, there is probably no need to lug a 35watt HID torch through a cave. It's an unrealistic need. But because we don't have any info on what the prospective buyer thinks will best fit their needs, someone might suggest doing just that.

That is why the two threads were combined.


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## ryan162 (Mar 18, 2010)

seriously this is a forum. it will never fit a version of searchable perfection...it exists to talk about flashlights. there is no thread bashing... just opinons...you know kinda like a forum instead of a well laid out dissertation. 
but you've made your point....this is CPF!


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## Egsise (Mar 18, 2010)

*Re: How durable is the Fenix HP10.....*



vali said:


> Yes, but according his posts he is searching about the best setup for caving. I dont think the HL20 is better than the HL10 for that porpouse (runtime is too short). I fact, I am pretty sure they designed the HL10 for caving in mind.


Interesting thing that I found, HL20 48 lumens runtime 5.5 hours, HP10 50 lumens runtime 22 hours.
Thats according the manufacturer specs.

The HP10 4xAA efficiency is poor as with HL20 1xAA, that can't be right...

I have tried to change the HL20 battery when it's mounted on my helmet, single battery change can be done even in total darkness.

But the OP is ready to spend 300$, so perhaps it's better to forget these Fenix models.


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## DM51 (Mar 19, 2010)

*Re: How durable is the Fenix HP10.....*



ryan162 said:


> really? lol. this guys wants to actually take some flashlights out of the wrapper and he gets a background post check and his two threads merged. :thumbsdow.


ryan162... you are not a new member, but you obviously visit infrequently, so you escape sanction on this occasion. However, please be sure to read Rule 8, which prohibits discusson of moderator actions. You will not receive a further warning if you repeat this offense.


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## ryan162 (Mar 19, 2010)

*Re: How durable is the Fenix HP10.....*

total thread jack here but i visit frequently to stay on top of whats new for use in mine exploring and on deployments. i contribute very little because of the forums over zealous moderation (ex: formally merging everything into the budget roundup) and often rude atmosphere toward new and/or common flashlight users. i certainly wouldn't want any "sanction" lol, so ill continue contributing elsewhere as clearly layed out in Rule #8 paragraph one lol


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## uk_caver (Mar 19, 2010)

*Re: How durable is the Fenix HP10.....*



Egsise said:


> Interesting thing that I found, HL20 48 lumens runtime 5.5 hours, HP10 50 lumens runtime 22 hours.
> Thats according the manufacturer specs.
> 
> The HP10 4xAA efficiency is poor as with HL20 1xAA, that can't be right...


Maybe they're working on actual (low Vf) R2 XP-E figures, but datasheet (3v7 Vf) figures for the XR-E Q5s, or just using the same efficiency estimates for boost and buck drivers, or even put a lot of effort into getting the best possible boost circuit for the HL20, but less so for the HP10.

What _is_ the best economically feasible boost efficiency?


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## DM51 (Mar 19, 2010)

*Re: How durable is the Fenix HP10.....*



ryan162 said:


> total thread jack here but i visit frequently to stay on top of whats new for use in mine exploring and on deployments. i contribute very little because of the forums over zealous moderation (ex: formally merging everything into the budget roundup) and often rude atmosphere toward new and/or common flashlight users. i certainly wouldn't want any "sanction" lol, so ill continue contributing elsewhere as clearly layed out in Rule #8 paragraph one lol


Following your deliberate defiance of the warning given to you, it won't surprise you to now find yourself suspended. Your suspension is provisionally for 1 week, but it will now be subject to review by CPF staff and it may be extended.


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## gajslk (Mar 19, 2010)

ahorton said:


> method of changing modes: _... wireless fear sensor_



I want!

Gordon


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## kevinm (Mar 19, 2010)

gajslk said:


> I want!
> 
> Gordon




Worst....idea....ever....

First, you'll be blinded by 200 lumens on the wall 0.5 inches from your nose where you had to take your helmet off because the passage if 6.5inches tall there. 

Then, when you fall 200ft into a pit people will see you flailing all the way down! 

God, I love caving!

Kevin


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## Empath (Mar 19, 2010)

ryan162 said:


> total thread jack here but i visit frequently to stay on top of whats new for use in mine exploring and on deployments. i contribute very little because of the forums over zealous moderation (ex: formally merging everything into the budget roundup) and often rude atmosphere toward new and/or common flashlight users. i certainly wouldn't want any "sanction" lol, so ill continue contributing elsewhere as clearly layed out in Rule #8 paragraph one lol





DM51 said:


> Following your deliberate defiance of the warning given to you, it won't surprise you to now find yourself suspended. Your suspension is provisionally for 1 week, but it will now be subject to review by CPF staff and it may be extended.



It appears that he voluntarily, permanently banned himself. Adjustment made.


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## Brian321 (Mar 19, 2010)

LOL, You guys are fun


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## wingnut86 (Mar 19, 2010)

Merging of threads gets a little annoying, especially when its your thread. And even more so when your thread is merged with another that is about a totally different product...Like this one. And even MORE SO, when the mods don't even tell you, they just do it, kind of like this thread...You Modzillas should lighten up a bit. Somebody who obviously gets laid WAY more than you Modzillas, (ryan162) had a valid point, and argument, and you jack assess chased him away. 

Now go ahead and merge this thread once again, I mean, it has gone off topic hasn't it?? Why not merge it with this one?? They're kind of the same, right?? Close enough?????? Go for it, you know you want to 51......:bow:



:banned:


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## wingnut86 (Mar 19, 2010)

This post is so I could get to 200 posts before I got tossed! :twothumbs


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## TorchBoy (Mar 19, 2010)

kevinm said:


> Worst....idea....ever....


Actually, I figure it would _dim_ your light so that when you come across a really long small squeeze (the guys in my caving club can probably guess what squeeze I have in mind here) and your forehead starts dripping with sweat your headlamp will automatically dim so you can't see the squeeze any more. Similarly when you come to the top of a really big drop you need to abseil down. Problem solved. Right?

Edit: I apparently clocked up my 4000th post with this.


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## DM51 (Mar 19, 2010)

wingnut86 said:


> This post is so I could get to 200 posts before I got tossed


Glad to oblige... pity you couldn't count, though.


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## TooManyGizmos (Mar 19, 2010)

Gosh ... 2 CPF suicide bombers in a row .......

That self-destructed themselves !

WOW ......... they had short fuses too !


( I'm glad we have Super Moderators )


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## Yucca Patrol (Mar 20, 2010)

This thread has degraded enough that I may not be able to offer much useful information but here goes. . . 

I cave a lot in big borehole passages where maximum output lets me see the whole cave. People with 60 lumen lights don't see anything but their immediate surroundings.

Your Zebralight is great for close up flood, but you need something to throw some lumens into the distance to really enjoy the caves.

Since you have a $300 budget or so, go with one of the cave-specific custom lamps. None of the plastic mainstream lights will compare with something truly built for the extreme environments found in caves.

Of course, plenty of my friends do very well with modified Apex's and similar 100+ lumen lights, especially when they have a supplemental hand held flashlight to throw some light where needed.

As far as I am concerned, I would rather strap two Rebel based MINI-Mags to either side of my helmet and get performance similar to some of the high end lights for 1/10 the cost and still have lights that are rather durable compared to the plastic lamps.

My custom light (Serv-Light 1.0 with 1 MC-E, 1 P7, and 1 P4) puts out about 450 lumens on high with a very clean combo of flood and throw that makes even the big borehole passages very well illuminated. For all the money I spend on gas driving to the caves, the least I can do is have the best light source I can get.


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## Brian321 (Mar 20, 2010)

Yucca Patrol said:


> *This thread has degraded enough that I may not be able to offer much useful information but here goes. . .*


 It is very useful. Thank you for acually responding to the thread instead arguing about dumb stuff.:thumbsup:


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## csa (Mar 21, 2010)

Yeah, Yucca Patrol has a good point.

The best light for you is going to depend to some extent on where you're caving. The lava caves I tend to spend time in have fewer large spaces and far more close and mid-distance conditions. 

I've been iterating through a handful of custom lights, currently using something a 3 LED setup that's ugly as sin but provides the right options for me, namely, efficient, plenty of flood, pretty dim most of the time, with a switch for better brightness/throw if I need it. I don't cave with idiots who bring too much light and then whine about it the whole time - we let our eyes get dark adjusted and then run our lights dim. It works out to a similar effect in the end. I mount the batteries on the helmet since it doesn't need a monster pack to keep it fed. 

Of course, this only works if your whole party realizes that dim is similar to bright, and it isn't the right approach for caves that consist primarily of huge caverns.

If you have the money, spend it on one of the linked lights earlier in the thread designed for caving. They're really nice, and you avoid the durability and reliability problems that plague most other solutions.


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## bnemmie (Mar 21, 2010)

I have been using my Steinligght S7 for a while now and it has been great for me. All aluminum construction, several modes, long battery life, very bright....

I have the larger battery so i can use it all day on High and have a couple 9V batts i keep in my back for backup in case the main battery dies. I can get by on the Low setting for 90% of the trip, the other settings are too bright unless i need to bounce big light off a high ceiling. Thats what works for me. 

But in all reality look for something waterproof and well made, with a long runtime, and something you can ger REALLY dirty. Just like csa said try one of the name brand linked lights. they wont let you down. after you have tried out a few, then you can figure out what works best for you. 

Just my $00.02 hope it helps


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## cyclopsed (Mar 21, 2010)

@brian321:
i have been playing around with SSC-P7´s and all i can say until now is: 
- the brighter may not be the better, for example getting 700 lumens in a huge cave is nice for looking around, but you are blinding your team mates, thus favorizing accidents that shall not happen at all. running my P7 at 350 mA is still blinding. lesson I learnt: if it´s bright, you shall have an opportunity to dim it in some manner to 1% to a maximum of 3% (speaking about P7´s)
- in the same perspective, the brighter you light is, the harder will be thrown shadows for your team mates during marches, their night view has to adopt more and thus its more fatiguing for them, ergo favorizing accidents. 
- nothing can replace that wonderfull warm tint carbide has. look for warm tints or bins or at least neutral white.
- speaking about carbide: I carry it all the time with me (without water in the tank, there are several sources that contain H2O) , it´s my life insurance if everything else fails AND it´s a source of heat if you are going to get stuck for a while.

edit: you will sooner or later see that Murphy always is right, especially in situations that are difficult: carry a carbide lamp.


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## TorchBoy (Mar 21, 2010)

Quite apart from damaging the cave and polluting the air and possibly cave waterways, of course, there are some truly horrible things that can go wrong with carbide lamps. But cyclopsed importantly doesn't really believe "you will sooner or later see that Murphy always is right".


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## cyclopsed (Mar 22, 2010)

torchboy, i think you miss understood me, but that may happen.

i actually run just on LEDs (petzl duo) in the caves and am best aware about polution with carbide, to be honest i'm horrified by this grey-black smear you find in many caves. 
considering murphy: there is always something going wrong, you loose time and it starts with someone entering with already partially depleted batteries, forgetting backup batteries or having not enough...


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## TorchBoy (Mar 22, 2010)

cyclopsed said:


> it starts with someone entering with already partially depleted batteries, forgetting backup batteries or having not enough...


Thankfully I haven't been in that situation since white LEDs arrived.


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## Matjazz (Mar 22, 2010)

I've handled Scurion, my friend has Stenlight and I'm a long time user of Petzl Duo (14led).
For a novice in caving I would definitely recommend the duo because it's simple, not too expensive (100€) and it won't let you down. Our cave rescue team members (54 of them) have duos, Postojna Cave has 50+ helmets with duo and every member of my caving club has it. So far I've heard of duos failing only due to negligence resulting in battery leakage. I've even seen cave divers using them in shallow waters.

Stenlight has pathetic battery pack solution. A pack of batteries is attached to helmet with velcro Bad for squeezes and even worse for muddy squeezes where pack gets bumped off and mud gets on velcro as it happened with my friend. He ended up making a custom battery case and screwed it on helmet. It also doesn't have separate flood and beam options.

Scurion seemed heavy and it costs a lot :duh2: (more than I paid for a second hand car engine)


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## vtunderground (Mar 23, 2010)

Matjazz said:


> Stenlight has pathetic battery pack solution.



I agree... I'd be so scared that one good bump to the battery pack, and there'd be a "vent with flame" incident on the back of my head.


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## cyclopsed (Mar 23, 2010)

TorchBoy said:


> Thankfully I haven't been in that situation since white LEDs arrived.


 
LOL, it did'nt happen to me either,...
but i had crew members...


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## PeLu (Mar 24, 2010)

Matjazz said:


> So far I've heard of duos failing only due to negligence resulting in battery leakage.


 I have seen many Duos failing (including my own). 

There was even a trip when all four cavers with Duos had problems with them(different ones!). 

I had a hard time to fix them on the caving expeditions I had been since it was released. They are extremly maintainance unfriendly.....

And many of these problems could not be blamed to misuse or negligence.

We do not rate it as a caving light, it was a fine headlight when it came to the market.


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## TorchBoy (Mar 24, 2010)

PeLu said:


> it was a fine headlight when it came to the market.


How many years ago was that? It's doing well to still be made.


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## NYCaver (Mar 25, 2010)

TorchBoy said:


> How many years ago was that? It's doing well to still be made.



Exactly. The Duo has its niche which is the gap between lower end, headband style lights, and the high end indestructible ones. There are a couple things it has going for it. 1. Usually remains waterproof, which can't be said of a lot of competitors. 2. Redundancy in the form of the LED or bulb switch option. Bulb also serves as a great battery indicator. Downside is that with its weak beam, its best use is as a battery indicator.

As far as negatives go I'd have to say the biggest is petzl's refusal to modernize the LED technology in the duo. They have a great basic design so why not just build off of that with some modern led's? What's even more confusing is that their hazardous environment version of the DUO uses a high power LED in the place of the bulb, yet this hasn't made its way to the caving version.

PeLu, what was the cause of the failures you've come across? Would you say the Duo is more maintenance un-friendly than other similar commercial lights? I would say it gives up its secrets a lot more easily than comparable headlamps. After all, how many lamps can you buy repair kits for?


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## Matjazz (Mar 25, 2010)

PeLu said:


> I have seen many Duos failing (including my own)... They are extremly maintainance unfriendly.....



Now that you mentioned, I do remember 5 duos failing, but they were all mounted on helmets by users and had their cables on the out side unlike the factory mounted duos that have cables under the helmet. As for maintenance, I opened my duo years ago when I bought moduled 5 and recently for moduled 14 and my own halogen mod. As far as I know my fellow cavers they just clean the helmet and keep an eye on batteries. And that's all the maintenance on their years old duos.


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## PeLu (Mar 26, 2010)

TorchBoy said:


> How many years ago was that? It's doing well to still be made.


I got my first one in 1996 or 1995.



NYCaver said:


> PeLu, what was the cause of the failures you've come across?


 wires in the cables breaking, contact problems both front and rear, switches not working. Battery box top coming off. 



> Would you say the Duo is more maintenance un-friendly than other similar commercial lights?
> 
> 
> > Yes, it is very difficult changing the cables.
> ...


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## NYCaver (Mar 26, 2010)

Since you seem to know quite a bit about the Duo, and have moved on to other things:

In the Duo price range, are there lights you would recommend over the Duo? Or are you just buying more expensive lights now?

Sorry if this whole DUO discussion seems to be off topic! It seems to be pretty much in the same realm as what the OP was asking about.


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## Matjazz (Mar 26, 2010)

Duo has changed since 1996; all contacts are now stainless steel and battery pack has aluminum clamps.

I was also looking for something to replace my duo because I couldn't settle with inefficient halogen beam. The Princeton Apex seemed appealing. It uses 4xAA, has separate flood and beam and seems to be bright enough. While I believed I could make it waterproof, I didn't see a way to protect the cable that is attached to one of the top two corners of battery pack which get scratched and bumped the most.

So I went the other way and modded duo with Cree Q5 and lens to replace halogen beam.


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## bnemmie (Mar 26, 2010)

Stenlight has pathetic battery pack solution. A pack of batteries is attached to helmet with velcro :ohgeez:Bad for squeezes and even worse for muddy squeezes where pack gets bumped off and mud gets on velcro as it happened with my friend. He ended up making a custom battery case and screwed it on helmet. It also doesn't have separate flood and beam options.QUOTE said:


> I not too sure about that. I have my 5000 mAh battery mounted on the inside of my helmet and it has never given me a problem. It may not work for everyone but it does for me. That gives me 16 hours on High, 54 hours on Medium and over 7 days on Low. Plenty long for me.


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## NYCaver (Mar 26, 2010)

bnemmie said:


> I not too sure about that. I have my 5000 mAh battery mounted on the inside of my helmet and it has never given me a problem. It may not work for everyone but it does for me. That gives me 16 hours on High, 54 hours on Medium and over 7 days on Low. Plenty long for me.



Wow, there's room for a 5000mAh pack inside your helmet? Is it on the top/roof of the helmet? If so, are you aware that foreign objects inside the helmet will negate much of the safety the helmet provides in that area? It may not be so much of a concern in some situations, but in vertical caves I personally wouldn't want anything big and hard on the inside of my helmet.


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## kevinm (Mar 26, 2010)

Matjazz said:


> So I went the other way and modded duo with Cree Q5 and lens to replace halogen beam.



More info, please. 
Kevin


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## kevinm (Mar 26, 2010)

NYCaver said:


> Wow, there's room for a 5000mAh pack inside your helmet? Is it on the top/roof of the helmet? If so, are you aware that foreign objects inside the helmet will negate much of the safety the helmet provides in that area? It may not be so much of a concern in some situations, but in vertical caves I personally wouldn't want anything big and hard on the inside of my helmet.



Yeah, particularly if it's lithium. I don't like it when my head catches on fire!:candle:


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## Mark620 (Mar 26, 2010)

Yucca Patrol said:


> This thread has degraded enough that I may not be able to offer much useful information but here goes. . .
> 
> I cave a lot in big borehole passages where maximum output lets me see the whole cave. People with 60 lumen lights don't see anything but their immediate surroundings.
> 
> ...



Hey Yucca,
Come up to TN with all your lights and I will see about getting a trip to Crashing Spire...


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## bnemmie (Mar 26, 2010)

NYCaver said:


> Wow, there's room for a 5000mAh pack inside your helmet? Is it on the top/roof of the helmet? If so, are you aware that foreign objects inside the helmet will negate much of the safety the helmet provides in that area? It may not be so much of a concern in some situations, but in vertical caves I personally wouldn't want anything big and hard on the inside of my helmet.


 
That thought did cross my mind when i was looking for a place to mount it. But after testing ( which involved me hitting my helmeed head with various hard objects lol) ) it never hit my head and i never felt unsafe. i even forget its there sometimes 

there is something else i do if im using the headband and not the helmet. i have the 3 foot cable extender, so i just put the battery in the back pocket of my pants. or in my backack if im caving. it works well.


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## TorchBoy (Mar 26, 2010)

bnemmie said:


> I have my 5000 mAh battery mounted on the inside of my helmet and it has never given me a problem. It may not work for everyone but it does for me.


 I'm with the guys who have already commented on this. Do you know _how_ a helmet protects your noggin from an impact? I have a caving manual that points our even a chocolate bar in the top of a helmet in a cold cave could be lethal with an impact on top. If your battery pack is damaged by an impact would it be better inside or outside the helmet shell?


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## TorchBoy (Mar 26, 2010)

Oh, there's another page...



TorchBoy said:


> Do you know _how_ a helmet protects your noggin from an impact?





bnemmie said:


> That thought did cross my mind when i was looking for a place to mount it. But after testing ( which involved me hitting my helmeed head with various hard objects lol) ) it never hit my head and i never felt unsafe.


I think that's a "no". A helmet will not be usable after a genuine test - or after a decent impact in a caving situation. It is designed to absorb a large amount of kinetic energy from the wearer falling or an impact from a falling rock, and will destructively deform as it does so. Any solid object on the inside of the helmet that shouldn't be there will prevent the helmet working as it should.

An example picture from the middle of last year of a foam-lined helmet after taking an impact is here. Viewer discretion advised because it's a little messy. Each cell of the foam would normally be round, but in taking an impact deformed to absorb the energy. The foam ended up considerably thinner and very likely saved the wearer's life and/or prevented brain damage.

I suspect your testing wouldn't have involved hitting your head that hard. Your battery pack really does belong on the outside of your helmet.


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## bnemmie (Mar 27, 2010)

It hasnt been an issue before. ive used it for i think over two years now and to be honest, its worked so well i havent even thought about it much. but ill look into it and see if i can find a better solution. Thanks for the advice and concern.


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## PeLu (Mar 27, 2010)

NYCaver said:


> In the Duo price range, are there lights you would recommend over the Duo? Or are you just buying more expensive lights now?


 Most (actually all serious cavers) people here learned that more expensive, dedicated caving lights are usually worth the money.


off topic about caving helmets: 



TorchBoy said:


> I have a caving manual that points our even a chocolate bar in the top of a helmet in a cold cave could be lethal with an impact on top.


Just curious: Which manual is it?

Funny that I have this discussions since more than 30 years. It was quite popular with these 4.5V square pack batteries and foamless helmets. 



TorchBoy said:


> Each cell of the foam would normally be round, but in taking an impact deformed to absorb the energy. The foam ended up considerably thinner and very likely saved the wearer's life and/or prevented brain damage.



.-)

This statement is made after about any hit of a helmet with more than a scratch on it. Not only about caving helmets.


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## TorchBoy (Mar 27, 2010)

bnemmie said:


> It hasnt been an issue before.


Because you haven't been hit or fallen before. :mecry: Until that happens a helmet is only dead weight or useful for protection from being careless where you put your head. And a place to hang lighting equipment.



PeLu said:


> Just curious: Which manual is it?


A British one, from memory. I'll see if I can dig it up.



PeLu said:


> This statement is made after about any hit of a helmet with more than a scratch on it. Not only about caving helmets.


Helmets really do work, and those not wearing helmets suffer serious injuries from relatively minor incidents. You can die just from falling over on pavement. In this case the helmet probably was a bit scratched - couldn't really tell under the red stuff - but it was primarily an impact rather than scraping, it clearly prevented his head from being much worse damaged, and it clearly couldn't be used again.

Edit: Actually the helmet had quite a few decent scratches beforehand. It was far from new.


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## bstrickler (Apr 2, 2010)

TorchBoy said:


> Helmets really do work, and those not wearing helmets suffer serious injuries from relatively minor incidents. You can die just from falling over on pavement. In this case the helmet probably was a bit scratched - couldn't really tell under the red stuff - but it was primarily an impact rather than scraping, it clearly prevented his head from being much worse damaged, and it clearly couldn't be used again.




I can testify to that. My life has actually been saved by wearing a helmet when I was a kid. If I wasn't wearing it, the doctors told my parents I would've had severe brain damage, if I lived.

Here's a quick summary of what happened.

I was riding my bike down a sidewalk (I was racing my older brother) during the fall or something (when leaves and small branches are falling off the tree's), which was quite sloped (probably similar to that of a driveway). What we think happened, was that my front tire kicked up a good sized stick, which ended up getting caught in the spokes, and halted me suddenly, tossing me over the handlebars, and causing me to hit my head, and slide probably about 15 feet on the sidewalk. My body was pretty banged up, and had a black eye, as well, along with some unexplainable injuries (upper lip, where a moustache grows, was pretty scraped up, but my nose was unscathed, other than a small surface abrasion).

I can scan in the pictures, if you want.


In summary, Helmets really do save your head. I show those pictures to anyone I talk to that refuses to wear a helmet. Due to that, I've actually caused several people to change their mind, and buy a helmet, and safety gear for their motorcycle.

~Brian


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## vali (Apr 2, 2010)

@Brian321: I read in another thread you did some caving recently. Can you tell us what headlamp did you buy in the end?


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## Brian321 (Apr 2, 2010)

vali said:


> @Brian321: I read in another thread you did some caving recently. Can you tell us what headlamp did you buy in the end?


I have not bought one yet as i am still undecided, I am still using the ZL H501 for now. I did however pre-order a new ZL H31 but im not sure i want to use that for caving.

I would like something with a little better runtime with different brightness levels for caving so i am still looking.

There is a MVOR coming up and there will be alot of venders there, so i might just wait till then and see what they have, I just dont know yet :shrug:.


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## uk_caver (Apr 3, 2010)

bstrickler said:


> I can testify to that. My life has actually been saved by wearing a helmet when I was a kid. If I wasn't wearing it, the doctors told my parents I would've had severe brain damage, if I lived.


+1 to that.
I had a high-speed (~30mph) front wheel lockup when sprinting in London traffic. I went over the bars, headplanted into the road with a bang, slid along upside down in cycling position (but having lost the bike), and flipped over at the end to sit neatly on the road, completely unmarked apart from a small fraying on my back trouser pocket where I had a bunch of keys.
I was by the front wheels of a large parked coach, the somewhat damaged bike by the back wheels.
The helmet (a very solid Kiwi unit with a thick polycarbonate shell over foam) only looked slightly scratched, but without it I'd have been lucky to escape without some nasty injuries. As it was, all I ended up with was a back which stiffened up severely over the nest couple of days, and then eased back to normal.


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## TorchBoy (Apr 24, 2010)

I've done a bit of in-cave testing of a new homemade headlamp with a 1000+ lumen high mode (centre-weighted flood). Initial reaction from party members was quite favourable. Instead of finding me a menace to cave with, they appreciated being able to see formations on the ceiling of medium sized chambers. I note they were facing away from me because I was tail-end charlie at the time. I thoroughly recommend having the option of lots of light.



ahorton said:


> [/I]method of changing modes: _eg single pushbutton, rotary, multiple toggles, *wireless fear sensor*_


I had that happen at one point when I got to a downclimb and must have bumped the headlamp hard enough to change modes, thereby upping the brightness considerably. I've changed the battery pack since then, I think removing the feature.

Brian321, any updates?


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## Brian321 (Apr 24, 2010)

TorchBoy said:


> I've done a bit of in-cave testing of a new homemade headlamp with a 1000+ lumen high mode (centre-weighted flood). Initial reaction from party members was quite favourable. Instead of finding me a menace to cave with, they appreciated being able to see formations on the ceiling of medium sized chambers. I note they were facing away from me because I was tail-end charlie at the time. I thoroughly recommend having the option of lots of light.
> 
> 
> I had that happen at one point when I got to a downclimb and must have bumped the headlamp hard enough to change modes, thereby upping the brightness considerably. I've changed the battery pack since then, I think removing the feature.
> ...


 
Nope im still looking for that perfect headlamp. I will know when i see it.

I want to try the HP10 but everyone is out of stock because Fenix is redoing the switch.

I would be interested in buying a modified one if you know someone who will sell/make me one.

Thanks,
Brian


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## TorchBoy (Apr 24, 2010)

Brian321 said:


> I would be interested in buying a modified one if you know someone who will sell/make me one.


I'll excuse myself from that task as I'm still not happy with the waterproofness of my homemade jobs. Some good Petzl Duo drop-ins are available, like one that uses a Cree XR-E with an 8° optic to replace the halogen bulb. It provides a better beam than the halogen and longer runtime. The HP10 is very good and has a very good beam, but it's let down by the diffuser which is not robustly attached and is easy-to-lose. (BTW, you don't have to quote everything, just what you're specifically replying to.)


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## Brian321 (Apr 24, 2010)

TorchBoy said:


> (BTW, you don't have to quote everything, just what you're specifically replying to.)


 
Yea i know i was just to lazy to do it.

Brian


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## Matjazz (Apr 27, 2010)

TorchBoy said:


> Some good Petzl Duo drop-ins are available, like one that uses a Cree XR-E with an 8° optic to replace the halogen bulb. It provides a better beam than the halogen and longer runtime.


Where can one get one?


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## TorchBoy (Apr 27, 2010)

A guy in Britain makes and sells them, but I can't remember where to find his contact details.  I've seen them mentioned on either CPF or a caving forum and earlier this month I met a guy who has one. I'll see if I can find some info.


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## kevinm (Apr 28, 2010)

Matjazz said:


> Where can one get one?



http://customduo.co.uk/default.aspx

I also modify one of the off the shelf drop-ins to give you 100-120 lumens from 400mA and anything in the 2-9 volts range. 

I'd ship one to you if you are in the US for $40.

Kevin


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## kevinm (Apr 28, 2010)

Double post post!


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## uk_caver (Apr 28, 2010)

TorchBoy said:


> A guy in Britain makes and sells them, but I can't remember where to find his contact details.  I've seen them mentioned on either CPF or a caving forum and earlier this month I met a guy who has one. I'll see if I can find some info.


You met him in New Zealand?
If so, and his name was Paul, that might have been one of mine.


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## Yucca Patrol (Apr 28, 2010)

The guy that makes the duo drop-in modules is the same one who makes the Little Monkey headlamp.

I've got one of the duo modules on the way to me as we speak. Looking forward to upgrading an old classic with up to date LED!


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## TorchBoy (Apr 28, 2010)

uk_caver said:


> You met him in New Zealand?
> If so, and his name was Paul, that might have been one of mine.


Yes! That was indeed Paul. If the ash ever allows him to get home (I hope he is by now) ask him about the things he saw here.


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## simples (Apr 30, 2010)

kevinm said:


> http://customduo.co.uk/default.aspx
> 
> 
> Kevin


 
On ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/Petzl-duo-LED-c...s_Climbing_Mountaineering&hash=item1c11c85981


but if you use the website shop http://customduo.co.uk/CustomDUOrange.aspx they are about $40 delivered to USA or anywhere else. Probably covering ebay fees.


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