# WHAT THE %$#@ (Pic Heavy)



## Cosmo7809 (Nov 24, 2008)

I just came home about 10 minutes ago and decided to take my G2 apart to do some lubing. I unscrewed the bezel looked like this(normal)








and tried taking the LA out.... It was stuck, very stuck(has never been like that) so I proceed to wiggle the LA out and I see this...














Now my question is WTF happened? I used it last night before going to bed to check something and put it back on my dresser... Any ideas????
The light still goes on high..... and sometimes goes very low and kicks back into high.

P.S.- This was the R2 LED drop in that ttran97 was selling in the marketplace quite a few months ago.


----------



## curlyfry562 (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks sucks. Is there any battery leakage, or is it just the lamp?


----------



## Cosmo7809 (Nov 24, 2008)

Nope... batteries are in perfect shape.


----------



## Sgt. LED (Nov 24, 2008)

WOAH
Time to take all my stuff apart!

Looks awful. What did you use as lube on it previously? I never want to use it, it looks like it went to town on the brass!


----------



## Cosmo7809 (Nov 24, 2008)

To be perfectly honest nothing except with what it came with. I was just bored and thought I should lube some lights that I use often. I just took it to the work shop and tired separating the two with some channel locks and I cant get this sucker loose for the life of me.... Throwing it on the floor didnt seem to work either:thinking:


----------



## LukeA (Nov 24, 2008)

Your pictures:


----------



## Cosmo7809 (Nov 24, 2008)

Thank you


----------



## Sgt. LED (Nov 24, 2008)

The blown up pics help.

Look at the green powder from the eaten brass!

Is it peroxide and baking soda you dip it in to clean it? I forget.


----------



## Norm (Nov 24, 2008)

Looks like electrolysis. 
Norm


----------



## DaFABRICATA (Nov 24, 2008)

Looks like your flashlight got an STD....that sucks...


----------



## Cosmo7809 (Nov 24, 2008)

Yes, funeral arrangements are being made(hes happy to be donated to science) But seriously.... can this happen to my other lights? Way to prevent this?


----------



## Black Rose (Nov 24, 2008)

and look at the damage to the light


----------



## kramer5150 (Nov 24, 2008)

:green::sick2:

Battery venting comes to mind immediately. I doubt the R2 drop in caused that... you can see the damage way down into the body tube. You can see where the corrosion stops abruptly half way down, where the two cells touch. Perhaps a slow-venting, such that it does not damage the cells outward appearance... if thats even possible.

Is it possible its been that way for a while?... not these cells but perhaps another pair of cells did it?

When was the last time you had it apart? I am not sure if SF warrants against battery-venting damage, but before you bury it you might want to give them a call.

**edit**
if you let them know it was a Surefire CR123 that was in use they might be more willing to accept responsibility.


----------



## Sgt. LED (Nov 24, 2008)

Perhaps something funky was on your hands when you last touched the module?


----------



## Cosmo7809 (Nov 24, 2008)

Ummm..... Three weeks ago tops


----------



## jayhackett03 (Nov 24, 2008)

what batteries were they?


----------



## kramer5150 (Nov 24, 2008)

Curious... is it one of the G2s being sold that have been RIT dyed? Water can collect between the nitrolon and metal body sleeve during the dye process. It needs to be _thoroughly _dried out before being put back into service.

If there's trapped moisture in there... its hard to say what it would do to the cells.


----------



## Black Rose (Nov 24, 2008)

Hard to tell, but the spring on the pill looks like it has rust on it or perhaps that's battery residue.

Looks almost like a battery leak you'd see with an alkaline cell.


----------



## Cosmo7809 (Nov 24, 2008)

First off they were surefire cells, second it was not bought from someone who used rit because I myself did.... I left it out over night to dry....:shrug: but that was three weeks ago!


----------



## Bruce B (Nov 24, 2008)

Um... Time for a new light I'd say...


----------



## kramer5150 (Nov 24, 2008)

Cosmo7809 said:


> First off they were surefire cells, second it was not bought from someone who used rit because I myself did.... I left it out over night to dry....:shrug: but that was three weeks ago!



Hmm there might be something there... I am not sure how long a G2 needs to dry out after dye-ing, but I would guess a hairdryer and some extended time in the warm sun wouldn't hurt.

Anyone know how Primaries respond in a high moisture environment? I could see a scenario where the cells vented/reacted _gradually _to the increased moisture trapped inside the light. Or the moisture by itself slowly causing rust and corrosion. I am not sure what the chemical composition of RIT dye is, but perhaps theres something in it that reacted with the cell chemistry?

RIT DYE has an MSDS document on their www site but the link is broken.


----------



## Cosmo7809 (Nov 24, 2008)

Bruce B said:


> Um... Time for a new light I'd say...


No excuse for that


----------



## VidPro (Nov 24, 2008)

you do know that moisture reacts with lithium? right.
but that would mean also that a battery was unsealed.
if that was the case, i shure would want to check the batts, before i shoved them in something else at least. 

i think you could not leave out the IDEA that a battery could be a problem with that kind of corrosion, unless you were using lye or sulferic acids  which both of them could look DRY, but they would pull water IN and become active once the water hit it again.
(that was not proper chemistry , but the idea is the same)

it is possible to have a small slow leaking of gas/solvent out of these Li type of batteries, and it smells corrosive  just the vapors, dont know if it is.


----------



## jzmtl (Nov 24, 2008)

kramer5150 said:


> Curious... is it one of the G2s being sold that have been RIT dyed? Water can collect between the nitrolon and metal body sleeve during the dye process. It needs to be _thoroughly _dried out before being put back into service.
> 
> If there's trapped moisture in there... its hard to say what it would do to the cells.


Still, water shouldn't do that to brass.


----------



## kramer5150 (Nov 24, 2008)

jzmtl said:


> Still, water shouldn't do that to brass.



Right *edit* no pun intended... but its not just water that was trapped in there. I'm _speculating_ something in the Rit Dye+moisture reacted with the cells


----------



## LukeA (Nov 24, 2008)

Could it be chlorine gas reacting with brass? That explains all the symptoms, such as the blackening of the brass and the yellow/light brown residue.


----------



## Niconical (Nov 24, 2008)

All this talk about the death of a flashlight is depressing. 

Let's cheer things up 

*Cosmo7809*, Christmas is just around the corner, so if Surefire don't warranty it, let me know, and I'll send you a new and unopened G2 

Pm on the way.....


----------



## tango44 (Nov 24, 2008)

Are you sure that salt water came into the light?


----------



## Illum (Nov 24, 2008)

VidPro said:


> you do know that moisture reacts with lithium? right.
> but that would mean also that a battery was unsealed.
> if that was the case, i shure would want to check the batts, before i shoved them in something else at least.
> 
> ...



well, that is certainly possible.
Primaries are designed to vent if necessary at around 15 psi. the cell may have safely vented and filled the flashlight body with whatever gaseous byproduct and that in term reacted with whatever that was inside the body before the venting: water vapor, reactive lube...


----------



## rockz4532 (Nov 24, 2008)

LukeA said:


> Could it be chlorine gas reacting with brass? That explains all the symptoms, such as the blackening of the brass and the yellow/light brown residue.


 how would chlorine have been in the light?


----------



## LukeA (Nov 24, 2008)

rockz4532 said:


> how would chlorine have been in the light?



Cell chemistry = LiSO*Cl*2


----------



## gswitter (Nov 24, 2008)

Could the OP clear up a couple things?

- Was the host rit dyed? _-sounds like it was_
- Assuming it was...- What was in the dye and/or in the water?
- Has the light been used since it was dyed, and how much?​


----------



## Size15's (Nov 24, 2008)

SureFire SF123A batteries are LiMnO2 Lithium Manganese Dioxide.

It seems to make sense explore the impact modifying the G2 with aftermarket dye had and whether this caused or contributed to the failure. It looks that way so far.

I know from experience that flashlights take far longer to dry out then I expected. I would advocate slow, gentle drying for at least a week depending on how low the humidity is. I've had one SureFire disassembled for two weeks in the airing cupboard (warmest, driest place in the house) to get rid of a window-misting issue.

Modifying a SureFire product, using an aftermarket LED drop-in... Doesn't seem too promising that SureFire will warranty it but you can but call 'em and ask I guess.


----------



## rockz4532 (Nov 24, 2008)

oh good, i only use SF cells, and isnt that LA the R2 from DX (haha SF LA R2 DX)


----------



## kramer5150 (Nov 24, 2008)

This is interesting... so we have:
-Sealed volume of air provided by the G2
-Brass + Aluminum from the DX module
-Water vapor (potentially)
-RIT dye (potentially)
-Periodic current draw from the cells as the light was used
-3 Weeks of fermentation (for lack of a better term)

What does surefire use to plate the inner metal sleeve of the G2?

Like Al... I have found it takes a surprisingly long time to completely dry a flashlight that has been exposed to water.


----------



## LukeA (Nov 24, 2008)

Size15's said:


> SureFire SF123A batteries are LiMnO2 Lithium Manganese Dioxide.



Guess what element is in the electrolyte.


----------



## Cosmo7809 (Nov 24, 2008)

gswitter said:


> Could the OP clear up a couple things?
> 
> - Was the host rit dyed? _-sounds like it was_
> - Assuming it was...- What was in the dye and/or in the water?
> - Has the light been used since it was dyed, and how much?​



Yes it was dyed about 3... 4 weeks ago, I let the G2 dry for a good 24 hours and then made it dry more, not used too too much. Just here and there.


----------



## hamheart (Nov 24, 2008)

i think if water comes in contact with lithium this happens http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhW7TtXIAM&feature=related so maybe that happened in your light, what i mean by "that" is when lithium comes in contact whith water it creates heat and hydrogen, causing hydrogen to ignite because of the heat.


----------



## Kiessling (Nov 24, 2008)

LukeA said:


> Guess what element is in the electrolyte.




Just a remark about a repeated posting style:
A bit less attitude and a generally more friendly approach to a conversation with fellow flashaholics would be appreciated. 

bernhard


----------



## Sgt. LED (Nov 24, 2008)

Should that count when we are talking to size15?

He speaks to CPF'ers with all the grace and care of a sledgehammer, can we not match him?

Just kidding by the way!


----------



## mdocod (Nov 24, 2008)

It's like, CSI for flashlights. This thread is very informative so far, hopefully we can develop some conclusive idea as to what caused this. 

I'm very much in favor of blaming water, in conjunction with the lithium cells, in conjunction with a few coincidences that may not be easy to re-produce.

--------------------

Cheers to Niconical's offering!!! 
I've received some gifts from him already, definitely one of the most generous CPFers I know 

Eric


----------



## signal 13 (Nov 25, 2008)

Niconical said:


> All this talk about the death of a flashlight is depressing.
> 
> Let's cheer things up
> 
> ...


 
WOW! What a deal! If anything ever happens to one of my M3s, M3Ts, or M4s, I'll be sure to let Niconical know!

_But seriously_, a very generous offer. Good to know such people/CPFers, exist out there!


----------



## Burgess (Nov 25, 2008)

_


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Nov 25, 2008)

You said that the batteries were ok, no obvious damage to them. What is the voltage of the cells now? Were the Surefire cells checked for voltage prior to putting them in the light? Looks like the R2 drop in shorted out somehow.

Bill


----------



## Nyctophiliac (Nov 25, 2008)

Niconical said:


> *Cosmo7809*, Christmas is just around the corner, so if Surefire don't warranty it, let me know, and I'll send you a new and unopened G2
> 
> Pm on the way.....




That is a great offer, and a very kind one. Truly the spirit of the festive season is amongst us.


What a gentleman!





Be lucky...


----------



## jumpstat (Nov 25, 2008)

Yikes, looks like serious corrosion on a grand scale.


----------



## Cosmo7809 (Nov 25, 2008)

I want to make this post in a thank you for Niconical. He is such a great guy and more people should be like him! I cannot thank him more for his kindness. Thank you Nick and have a Merry merry Christmas!!!!


----------



## will (Nov 25, 2008)

RIT dye suggests adding salt to the dye solution. I am not sure what concentration of RIT dye was used here. If there was salt, that is the reaction I would expect to see between brass and aluminum. There may even be salt in the RIT dye itself. 

Whenever I use any solution on anything electronic, I rinse with plain water for quite some time to remove any residual solution. The next step I use is to blow off the part with compressed air. This will drive the remaining solution out from between small spaces on the part.

To be really sure, I will rinse again and blow out the part a second time.

Think of a threaded part, the water that gets between the male and female parts will not air dry, It needs some help. Forced air will drive some of that moisture out. A second method is to use low heat. Parts placed in an oven at 110 degrees will speed the drying process. 

Looking at the pictures, it looks like the result of residual moisture and a chemical reaction between the brass and the aluminum.


----------



## Crenshaw (Nov 25, 2008)

hmmm, its amazing HOW much this looks like a alk leakage....!

Crenshaw


----------



## kramer5150 (Nov 25, 2008)

will said:


> RIT dye suggests adding salt to the dye solution. I am not sure what concentration of RIT dye was used here. If there was salt, that is the reaction I would expect to see between brass and aluminum. There may even be salt in the RIT dye itself.
> 
> Whenever I use any solution on anything electronic, I rinse with plain water for quite some time to remove any residual solution. The next step I use is to blow off the part with compressed air. This will drive the remaining solution out from between small spaces on the part.
> 
> ...




Aaah... Not sure what the salt content of RIT dye is, but I have seen it recommended as an additive to the dye solution to help the dye set more permanently into the plastics.


----------



## Cosmo7809 (Nov 25, 2008)

No salt used here.


----------



## Size15's (Nov 25, 2008)

LukeA said:


> Guess what element is in the electrolyte.


Nice try 
The element within the electrolyte is different from the cell chemistry.
Whether or not the electrolyte used by SF123A batteries contains Chlorine is different to SF123A batteries being Lithium Thionyl Chloride; which they are not.



Sgt. LED said:


> Should that count when we are talking to size15?
> He speaks to CPF'ers with all the grace and care of a sledgehammer, can we not match him?
> 
> Just kidding by the way!


It's the way I am with everybody; don't want CPF'ers thinking they get special treatment. :green:


----------



## Sgt. LED (Nov 25, 2008)

:laughing:


----------



## hopkins (Nov 25, 2008)

1.Vinegar and an old toothbrush should be able to clean it all up. (acidic)
Rinse well with water before next step.

2. A water and baking soda solution brushing (basic) after the vinegar scrub
will neutralize any acid left, rinse well with distilled water. Dry with a fan and it'll
shine like new but have some pits.


----------



## Taboot (Nov 25, 2008)

mdocod said:


> It's like, CSI for flashlights. This thread is very informative so far, hopefully we can develop some conclusive idea as to what caused this.
> 
> I'm very much in favor of blaming water, in conjunction with the lithium cells, in conjunction with a few coincidences that may not be easy to re-produce.
> 
> ...



Haha! I was thinking it was like a House, MD episode! 

Man, it looks just like an Alkaline battery issue I had that killed my 6D Mag. Clearly, it's not though.....


----------



## Paul520 (Nov 25, 2008)

That's what my leaked [email protected] looked like. Very corrosive stuff. (whatever is it)


----------



## WadeF (Nov 25, 2008)

I have a lot of these brass/aluminum drop ins and have never seen aything like that. There must have been some kind of moisture in the light. It may well have been water and dye left on the threads, etc. If it was only left to sit around for 24 hours it was most likely still damp. Once the light was assembled it was probably pretty humid inside the body after awhile.  

Also were the batteries the same voltage? Couldn't sticking a near dead cell and a fresh cell in a 2 cell light cause venting?


----------



## Size15's (Nov 25, 2008)

The G2 body has a metal sleeve press-fit inside it - a moisture trap no doubt. Even if it was removed for the dying process, putting it back in before the body was fully dry would not have helped.


----------



## socom1970 (Nov 25, 2008)

Ok, guys. I think I know the problem here. I just checked my two G2's. Both were RIT dyed by me that night when we were all excited about doing that. I let both of mine dry for about 36 hours, maybe a little less. I have not taken them apart since I finished reassembling them a couple of months ago (or so). I just took them apart right now. Both have the SF123 cells in them. One has a P60, the other a P61 LA. Both LA's have the same corrosion on the outside of the LA's. Both are not as serious as the OP'er. The P60 is a bit worse than the P61 for whatever reason. The G2+P61 has a SF shock-isolated tactical bezel on it, whereas the G2+P60 had the stock bezel. I'm thinking the P61 didn't get affected as much because of not being exposed to as much moisture due to it being surrounded by the aluminum bezel. The P60 clearly had more exposure to moisture from the G2 bezel. My cells are fine.

Definitely let dyed G2's dry out A LOT longer than a day or two before reassembling them.

Sorry about no pics. No way to post them.


----------



## Cosmo7809 (Nov 25, 2008)

socom1970 said:


> Ok, guys. I think I know the problem here. I just checked my two G2's. Both were RIT dyed by me that night when we were all excited about doing that. I let both of mine dry for about 36 hours, maybe a little less. I have not taken them apart since I finished reassembling them a couple of months ago (or so). I just took them apart right now. Both have the SF123 cells in them. One has a P60, the other a P61 LA. Both LA's have the same corrosion on the outside of the LA's. Both are not as serious as the OP'er. The P60 is a bit worse than the P61 for whatever reason. The G2+P61 has a SF shock-isolated tactical bezel on it, whereas the G2+P60 had the stock bezel. I'm thinking the P61 didn't get affected as much because of not being exposed to as much moisture due to it being surrounded by the aluminum bezel. The P60 clearly had more exposure to moisture from the G2 bezel. My cells are fine.
> 
> Definitely let dyed G2's dry out A LOT longer than a day or two before reassembling them.
> 
> Sorry about no pics. No way to post them.


Ummm interesting....


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Nov 25, 2008)

I'd be almost willing to let it go right there. Rit dye left moist.

I think I'll leave my black G2 Black and my OD G2 OD!


----------



## Sgt. LED (Nov 25, 2008)

It's an OK procedure just next time let it dry longer.


----------



## jabe1 (Nov 25, 2008)

Looks alot like corrosion from vinegar. Is the Ritt dye cut with white vinegar?


----------



## socom1970 (Nov 25, 2008)

jabe1 said:


> Looks alot like corrosion from vinegar. Is the Ritt dye cut with white vinegar?



I don't remember. I followed the directions on the RITT box, but I did not use any salt.


----------



## nikon (Nov 25, 2008)

Rit is a combination of two types of dye and one of them is acidic. It's necessary to use acid dye to color nylon. Salt is added only when dyeing organics such as cotton. 

The instructions on Rit dye say to thoroughly rinse when the dyeing is finished, then wash the piece in detergent. This should remove all traces of acid. Thorough drying is important and the process can be greatly sped up by shaking the body of the light hard and often in an up and down arc (imagine cracking a whip). Let it sit vertically for a while and do it again. The next day do it again until all the water appears to be gone. Then let it air dry. For some reason, more water seems to come out of the tail end of the body than from the front. 

I've dyed quite a few lights now and done all of the above. I haven't noticed any problems yet but I'll keep an eye peeled.


----------



## Sgt. LED (Nov 26, 2008)

You are THE guy to keep us updated on it!


----------



## n4zov (Sep 24, 2009)

I once dried out and saved a Nikkormat 35mm camera that had been dunked in a river by gently drying with a hair dryer and then sealing the camera in a .50 caliber ammo can with several large bags of desiccant. After a couple of days in the can, the camera was taken out and it still works like a charm twenty-five years later! Perhaps that treatment would work with the dyed G2's.


----------



## ToyTank (Apr 23, 2012)

This is an old thread but I found it a good read, I'm thinking about dyeing a couple tan G2s. 

I have dried electronics using a box fan, 2 chairs and a couple clamps. Put the chairs facing each other and clamp the box fan(airflow up) on the edge of the seats and set whatever you want to dry on the grill of the fan.


----------

