# 300 lumens and 7 watts from a Q5 and a single AA cell REALLY?



## Ergolator (Jun 17, 2012)

I measured the current draw from a freshly charged Eneloop AA in a Chinese Cree Q5 light that is sold as 300 lumens and 7 watts. Initial draw on the high setting was 2.0 amps from the battery. At 1.5 volts max. battery cell voltage that is 1.5V x 2.0 amps = 3.0 watts.

Has anyone measured the current draw from a 14500 (3.6v) cell? The current from this cell would need to be at least 1.9 amps to get 7 watts.

Send in your numbers - maybe this budget thrower really does do 300 lumens and 7 watts!

Here is a pic of the light:


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## qwertyydude (Jun 17, 2012)

You might get 300 lumens at 7 watts but you're not gonna be doing it for long. 2 amps through an XR-E is really pushing that led beyond its limit. You can usually do 1.5 amps if you have very good heatsinking.

On my Ultrafire C3 Stainless AA XR-E Q5, a 14500 will measure 1.3 amps. This tells me it's got a regulatorfor higher voltage. Some low voltage driver boards will just go to direct drive at higher than vf, some have a regulator. So the only way to really tell is to put a 14500 in yours and see if yours is fully regulated.


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## Ergolator (Jun 20, 2012)

qwertydude,

Yeah, I have been wondering if this thing has a regulator. And if it does, it might be a buck/boost. The boost for the single cell 1.2 volt (NiMh) and 1.5 volt (alkaline) cells and maybe a buck regulator for the 3.6 volt (lithium) cell like your Ultrafire. Not sure I want to tear it apart to find out though - it is a nice little light.

And yes, I agree that the 2.0 amps is pushing the emitter beyond data sheet limits. But if there is a boost regulator in there, 2 amps out of the battery may be significantly less than 2 amps into the emitter because we are trading current for a higher drive voltage. You're right, I need to get the higher voltage Li-ion cell and see what the current draw is.

Thanks for the thoughts.


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## Alland44 (Jun 24, 2012)

I just saw this thread. Are we speaking about the same gadget ??

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ight-Torch-Zoomable-Dimmer-Zoom-High-power-G3


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## Lynx_Arc (Jun 24, 2012)

The chinese are famous for inflating figures to make sales as are some manufacturers also. Today most lights from respectable companies rate things as OTF lumens per ANSI specs but some still use emitter lumens even based upon battery power neglecting losses for circuitry in the mix of which most cheaper boost circuits lose at least 20% power if not a lot more. Many chinese lights also make claims to use latest binned emitters and sneak in lower grade bins such as P4 while advertising Q5 or even R bins on cree XR-E based. In other words if it doesn't come from a maker with a review here on CF..... don't believe the hype.


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## aba1 (Jun 29, 2012)

can you describe the chemistry of the cell?


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## Ergolator (Jun 29, 2012)

Lynx_Arc,

Interesting comment on the binning of the emitters. Do you know if there is any marking on the emitter or the heat spreader substrate indicating what bin the device really is?

Also, considering your comment on the battery cell output power, I was getting about 3 watts out of the Eneloop AA cell on the "high" setting. Assuming the converter efficiency is 80% (a big assumption I know) then about 2.4 watts is getting to the emitter. The next step is to identify the emitter "bin" as you said because the efficiency of the emitter will affect the light output. So if the emitter is truly a Q5, then the light output at 2.4 watts should be about 190 lumens. LED current =700mA at 3.55 volts and then (107 lumens rated min. output)*(175%@700ma drive current) = 190 lumens approx. according to the Cree data sheet. It could be a 200 lumen light on an Eneloop AA.

Still wish I knew what the current draw was in this light for a 3.6 volt lithium cell. The light claims it will work but with a 14500 cell but I do not have one to try yet.


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## Ergolator (Jun 29, 2012)

Alland44 said:


> I just saw this thread. Are we speaking about the same gadget ??
> 
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ight-Torch-Zoomable-Dimmer-Zoom-High-power-G3



Not sure. Mine was billed as 300 lumens and says Cree Q5 on a flat spot on the side. I got it for about $5.50 on sale at $ungmart.com


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## Lynx_Arc (Jun 29, 2012)

Ergolator said:


> Lynx_Arc,
> 
> Interesting comment on the binning of the emitters. Do you know if there is any marking on the emitter or the heat spreader substrate indicating what bin the device really is?


none that I know of.... on the crees I have (on stars) they have it written (stenciled) on the back of the star.


> Also, considering your comment on the battery cell output power, I was getting about 3 watts out of the Eneloop AA cell on the "high" setting. Assuming the converter efficiency is 80% (a big assumption I know) then about 2.4 watts is getting to the emitter. The next step is to identify the emitter "bin" as you said because the efficiency of the emitter will affect the light output. So if the emitter is truly a Q5, then the light output at 2.4 watts should be about 190 lumens. LED current =700mA at 3.55 volts and then (107 lumens rated min. output)*(175%@700ma drive current) = 190 lumens approx. according to the Cree data sheet. It could be a 200 lumen light on an Eneloop AA.


The problem is the more power out of a battery sinks the battery voltage (by internal resistance) and every alight amount of resistance in the design loses more power. At 3 watts or about 2-2.5A most likely the whole light is about 65-75% efficient counting the losses including a less efficient boost circuit. If it works with lithium ion it may be even less efficient than one that doesn't.


> Still wish I knew what the current draw was in this light for a 3.6 volt lithium cell. The light claims it will work but with a 14500 cell but I do not have one to try yet.


This I couldn't tell you. I just know that the champion right now on output from a AA eneloop is a zebralight I think at about 250 lumens but that is off an XM-L emitter which using a lithium ion can output 400+ lumens on lights like the xeno E03 I think.


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## Ergolator (Jun 29, 2012)

I broke down an got a lithium cell to put in this little light. Call me a spendthrift. 

3.7 volts open circuit and 3.6 volts under load in the light. Measured 0.75 amps out of the lithium cell on "high". So that would be 3.6 volts x .75 amps = 2.7 watts - about the same as the AA Eneloop cell (difference is probably my measurement error). And the brightness appeared to be the same as with the AA Eneloop. 

So, without taking this little torch apart I would say that there is both a Boost and a Buck regulator inside. The lithium cell buys longer operation but not more light output. A pretty amazing little piece of technology for under $6.00 in my opinion. But definitely not a 7 watt light - more like a 2 watt to 3 watt light. I ordered a few more to keep around the house, garage and cars.


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## Lynx_Arc (Jun 29, 2012)

3.7v is low for a lithium ion cell, off the charger they typically measure closer to 4.2v. I doubt it is a buck circuit as 3.6v is probably close to the Vf the LED is operating most likely it either is direct drive or is a slight resistance.


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## Ergolator (Jul 2, 2012)

Got curious about the input power characteristics of this light so I measured the source current while varying the source voltage into this light. The data is shown in the graph below. Interesting that the light was unstable (meaning that it oscillated between the two end states and varied in brightness) for source voltages between 1.7 volts and 2.5 volts. This is in the region that is generally considered to be too high for AA alkaline or NiMH but too low for a discharged li-ion cell.


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## Ergolator (Jul 2, 2012)

Added a picture of the light in the original post to help with the ID.


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## Alland44 (Jul 10, 2012)

Got mine and tested a bit last night.
I`m very impressed with this tiny light who beats the hell outta my 250 lumen edc.

This is now best buy in my collection.


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## Mike_TX (Jul 10, 2012)

So, in translating watts to lumens for LED's, are we talking about 60 lumens/watt?

.
.


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## Lynx_Arc (Jul 10, 2012)

Mike_TX said:


> So, in translating watts to lumens for LED's, are we talking about 60 lumens/watt?
> 
> .
> .


probably between 60-90 depending on the quality of components as a Q5 is about 107 lumens/watt I believe but you lose power in circuitry, wiring, switches etc and lose some lumens in the reflector and lens also.


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## Ergolator (Jul 12, 2012)

I have had this light for about a month now and I am impressed. I had a faucet valve pull off in my hand last week while shaving (showering me and the rest of the bathroom with water). So I replaced 3 bathroom faucets using this little light (my wife believes in coordinated bathroom fixtures) to help with the under-sink work. 

Mine has a low/high/strobe mode so I used it on low for about 3 to 4 hours while I replaced all those faucets - no issues. Was using a single AA size Eneloop and it worked like a champ. I found the bright mode too bright for the dark environs under the sink. 

I will be buying more of these and they will be the three mode lights with the low mode included. Just carried it around in my pocket and lit it up when I needed it - a high level of utility due to the size, adjustable brightness and it stands on its tail without help (the light not my wife).


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## Ergolator (Jul 12, 2012)

Alland44 said:


> Got mine and tested a bit last night.
> I`m very impressed with this tiny light who beats the hell outta my 250 lumen edc.
> 
> This is now best buy in my collection.



I agree. Mine goes with me everywhere now. Excellent performance, cheap to feed and fits in my pocket easily. The quality seems good as well - especially after I put some silicone grease on the threads.


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## Alland44 (Jul 13, 2012)

Ergolator said:


> I agree. Mine goes with me everywhere now. Excellent performance, cheap to feed and fits in my pocket easily. The quality seems good as well - especially after I put some silicone grease on the threads.



I have ordered 6 more of this light, to give to family and friends.
With 14500 battery, charger and light, it`s about 13 dollar.


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## elseis66 (Jul 16, 2012)

I would like to order a few of these, can someone tell me where to order these?


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## hoffmyster86 (Jul 21, 2012)

i have one that looks just like it, think it was 6 dollers, 1 AA cell lasts about 20 minutes (1800mah) and one disposable about the same amount of time, so i brought the the other battery thinking yes this'll do me dandy! ffff nope lasted about ten hours on nothing more than a through the hole LED brightness.

stated was 100 luminum, alas, no, about 80-90 maybe, the led lenser H7R head torch at 105 luminum is brighter.

i presumed the the higher voltage lowered the amp draw to get a similar wattage..a shame really, the designs a good one.


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## gt5oh (Jul 24, 2012)

where can you order this one?


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## mikekoz (Jul 26, 2012)

I got a light just like this from Amazon.com. It was advertised as 300 lumens. It is nowhere near that. I would guess it is around 100-125. The light looks cool, the body seems well made, the head that moves to focus is not very smooth, and it seems to work better in flood mode. My light is a single mode, but some others have reported getting one with a high/low/strobe setting. I would have loved the low mode, but could do without the strobe. I ran it on a fully charged NiZN rechargeable AA cell, and it ran for 1 hour and 20 minutes before I noticed a drop in brightness. It is worth the $8.00 I paid for it!!


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## Alland44 (Jul 27, 2012)

mikekoz said:


> I got a light just like this from Amazon.com. It was advertised as 300 lumens. It is nowhere near that. I would guess it is around 100-125. The light looks cool, the body seems well made, the head that moves to focus is not very smooth, and it seems to work better in flood mode. My light is a single mode, but some others have reported getting one with a high/low/strobe setting. I would have loved the low mode, but could do without the strobe. I ran it on a fully charged NiZN rechargeable AA cell, and it ran for 1 hour and 20 minutes before I noticed a drop in brightness. It is worth the $8.00 I paid for it!!



Try putting a 14500 battery in the light !!

EDIT :

I just saw the headline now. 2xaa
I only use 14500 batteries in this light. 120 lumens with aa seems right, but with 14500 it rocks !


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## TBDave (Aug 7, 2012)

I got one of these last week from Amazon. Ordered from a seller named JacobsParts. Cost an extra buck or two, but they're located in the US and shipping only took 2-3 days.

The one I got has all 3 modes and the silver screws holding the clip. One reviewer mentioned that the flashlights with gold (or bronze) screws seemed to be lower quality. It has "jacobsparts" printed on the side, which doesn't bother me, but it might annoy some people.

So far, I'm very happy with my purchase. Has a good, solid metal feeling. I don't know about the true lumen output, but it's extremely bright. And I love the small size (3.5 inches long). Removed the clip so I can easily slide it in and out of my pocket.

Just ordered two more directly from their website. It was cheaper to order straight from the seller. If those arrive in good shape and perform the same, I might grab a couple more.


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## Empire (Aug 18, 2012)

TBDave said:


> I got one of these last week from Amazon. Ordered from a seller named JacobsParts. Cost an extra buck or two, but they're located in the US and shipping only took 2-3 days.
> 
> The one I got has all 3 modes and the silver screws holding the clip. One reviewer mentioned that the flashlights with gold (or bronze) screws seemed to be lower quality. It has "jacobsparts" printed on the side, which doesn't bother me, but it might annoy some people.
> 
> ...



How much?


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## Ergolator (Aug 19, 2012)

Sorry if this results in a duplicate post. The last one never made it back after the forum "event". 

I have gotten these little lights from a couple of sources and have noticed a difference in the "feel" of the slide zoom mechanism. One shipment was smooth and the next was metallic almost gritty feeling.

Now I know why.

the following pics show that the light on the left uses an o-ring around the pill while the one on the right uses a steel clip as stated by TBDave. The one with the clip is gritty feeling. I replaced the steel clip with an O ring from a cheapo $1.99 light and found it as smooth as the other after the mod.







Also, I am beginning to see that the brand of these Chinese lights means little. Both of these are marked with the same brand but clearly use different materials and have some design differences.

Both lights have bright, low and strobe modes and have similar brightness (to my uncalibrated eye).


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## mikekoz (Aug 19, 2012)

How did you get the head off??


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## Ergolator (Aug 19, 2012)

The lens cap unscrews. Then I used a pair of needlenose pliers to unscrew the pill from the main cylinder.


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## Newuser01 (Aug 19, 2012)

This above picture shows I think what is Chinese generic LED instead of q3 or q5's peoples have been getting. Please correct my if I'm wrong on this?


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## oldblue05 (Aug 28, 2012)

I bought one a month or so ago and have had excellent luck with it, lent it to a mechanic at work and it managed to come back with hydraulic oil in it causing a bad connection... tore it down and shot brake cleaner all over it and back in business.


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## Ergolator (Aug 28, 2012)

Did the hydraulic fluid do any damage to the O rings?


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## alex21 (Aug 29, 2012)

Is the slide zoom mechanism *supposed* to be loose and easy or firm to the pull? I've recieved both. Also one sample of the Ultrafire version differed in the tailcap having some indentation (grippy feel, sorry not fully up with the lingo yet) and the button requires a firm press to turn on.. whereas the others have no grippy indentation and turn on quite easily. I prefer the firm button press and the firm zoom slide mechanism.. guess that's not how it should be. This is quite a nice light.. pocket clip is quite reliable too I have found.


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## Ergolator (Aug 29, 2012)

alex21 said:


> Is the slide zoom mechanism *supposed* to be loose and easy or firm to the pull? I've recieved both. Also one sample of the Ultrafire version differed in the tailcap having some indentation (grippy feel, sorry not fully up with the lingo yet) and the button requires a firm press to turn on.. whereas the others have no grippy indentation and turn on quite easily. I prefer the firm button press and the firm zoom slide mechanism.. guess that's not how it should be. This is quite a nice light.. pocket clip is quite reliable too I have found.



The lights that I have with the O rings have a smooth, firm feel. Some of the lights that I have gotten with the steel clip are loose. That may be the difference.

What modes do your lights have? Low, High and Strobe? Or just On/Off?


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## alex21 (Aug 29, 2012)

Ergolator said:


> The lights that I have with the O rings have a smooth, firm feel. Some of the lights that I have gotten with the steel clip are loose. That may be the difference.
> 
> What modes do your lights have? Low, High and Strobe? Or just On/Off?


Hey,

All the UF's have high-low(more like medium)-strobe in that order with a soft press. The "original" Sipik SK68 only has high (on/off) but IMO same brightness on high as the UltraFire.. I've ordered a few "UltraOK" versions which apparently are equal or brighter than both the UF and Sipik and run better on 14500.


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