# Looking to upgrade entire home to LED...



## JasonJ (Jun 16, 2015)

About 7 years ago we went to exclusively 6500k 26w CFL bulbs in the home (with 13w in the ceiling fan). Now I'm considering moving to LED seeing as how the price keeps dropping year after year.. and some of my earliest CFL's are starting to fail. 

Is there anything I should know as a basic primer before going off to the store and standing in front of a shelf full of a half-dozen brands with marketing designed packages screaming at me?

High CRI? Give up the 100w incan equiv in favor of something more energy efficient? Go warmer in my color temp selection perhaps? How many lumens output should I be looking for?

I think the 6500k "daylight" CFL's I have now may be a _bit _too blueish.. not too hard on the eyes, however. I'd like to mimic natural daylight if I could.. my ceilings are painted bright white, walls are twilight grey (light blueish-grey) in the living room, a light mocha brown in the bedrooms. How will that affect the light output and buying decision? 

Am I thinking too much into this?


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## markr6 (Jun 16, 2015)

I really don't know what to tell you. I drove myself insane with these same questions. A few things I found after trying so many LEDs:

1. I can't handle the 80 CRI stuff, mostly because I COMPARED them side by side. Without doing that, you may be OK and not notice it. But I do and need 90+.
2. 6500K is crazy blue IMO, but it's up to you. 5000K is always available, so maybe you'll like that. I prefer something around 3500-4000K.
3. 100w are hard to find in a range of temps. Usually only 2700 and 5000. No high CRI that I know of.
4. I settled for a slightly too dim GE Reveal 60w in my living room. GREAT color, but wish they were brighter.
5. I use Cree TW in hallway ceiling fixtures. 93 CRI is nice, but only available in 40 and 60w

At this point in testing, I've wasted so much money I don't think any efficiency gain could bring me back!!


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## CoveAxe (Jun 16, 2015)

I'm surprised you lived with 6500k all this time. I think 5000k is too blue for me as it is.

So everyone is different and you're probably going to buy a bulb or two and not like them. It's an iterative process. Here's a couple of things I've learned so far, but they are just my preferences:

1. 4000k is really good for bathrooms/kitchens/laundry rooms. It gives a nice neutral white and makes bright whites really pop.
2. Bedrooms/living rooms/dining rooms should go warmer like 3000k.
3. The only 5000k bulbs I have are in my refrigerator and my garage. I bought these because 4000k wasn't really available at the time. It still looks good in these places.
4. I've been OK with 80 CRI, but for something like a dining or living room, a higher CRI would be preferable (90+).
5. For 40W equivalent (~500 lumen) and below, almost every bulb I've seen has been enclosed-fixture rated and is low-power enough that lifetime shouldn't be an issue.
6. You need to look around for enclosed-fixture rated 60-100W equivalent (800-1600 lumen) if that's what you want to use them for. Very few 100W equivalents are rated for enclosed-fixtures. If these aren't enclosed, then it's less of a problem.
7. LEDs are still in the stage where you get what you pay for. If it's a fixture that you use a lot, you should pay more for the bulb (~$10). If it's rarely used, then just get whatever.
8. If you install a bulb and find it gives you headaches or seems to bother you, then it might be flickering. Not much you can do except get a different model bulb and try again.
9. Stay away from ebay unless it's a very esoteric form factor and you can't get it anywhere else. Even then, don't expect great quality.
10. Amazon also has lesser-known LED brands that are decent if you need something less common. I picked up some G25 4000k bulbs from there (could not find anyone else who made those) and they've worked great for me. I researched the brand though to make sure that they weren't crap.
11. I don't have any dimmers (and I'm guessing you don't either if you're on CFL), but I've learned from others that some bulbs don't like certain dimmers. If you get a bulb and it doesn't dim well, try a different brand dimmer.

Since you say you have 26W and 13W CFLs, this corresponds to 100W (1600 lumen) and 60W (800 lumen) equivalents. If you are happy with your brightness, then using the same LED equivalent will be fine.

The big retailers have been going on the trend of "make LED bulbs as cheap as possible so we can sell more". They also only really seem to carry 2700k and 5000k with very little in between. I've personally been buying most of my bulbs lately from EarthLED. I've had good luck with the green creative line, but be warned that they flicker (if you are bothered by that), but they also have 100W equivalents that are enclosed-fixture rated. I have also had good luck with the 40W equivalent Crees at home depot.

Anyway, it's really a great time to start the switch . The quality is becoming more consistent and the industry as a whole has a lot more experience and manufacturing ability behind it when putting out new products. It's still not a mature market, but it's definitely improving each year. There's only a few incandescents I have left that I can't find a suitable LED replacement for (yet).


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## JasonJ (Jun 16, 2015)

Fantastic feedback! Thank you, I appreciate it. 

Yeah, the 6500k thing... ugh. I dunno.. sometimes I like it, because it really lights up the whole room.. other times.. eh. We dont use those lights very often. With the exception of the front/rear porch lights, my single hallway light, and my garage door opener, all of my light fixtures are open, not enclosed at all. No dimmers at all. 

The only light(s) that get turned on/off/on/off, etc frequently is the bathroom. Two fixtures on either side of the mirror fed by a single switch. 

I may just have to go and sample a bunch of lights at HD, Lowes, or Menards... I think I could deal with 5000k and be happy though. But I may have serious issue with any CRI under 90.


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## idleprocess (Jun 16, 2015)

JasonJ said:


> I may just have to go and sample a bunch of lights at HD, Lowes, or Menards... I think I could deal with 5000k and be happy though. But I may have serious issue with any CRI under 90.



HD/Lowes/etc appeal to the more _cost-conscious_ segments of the market, thus in the A19 space you're going to find products such as the Cree 4-Flow which only claim ">80" CRI, implying that it's more like 80.1 CRI than it is 90 CRI. Similar story with the original Cree bulb. Lowes doesn't post detailed specifications on their Sylvania nor Osram bulbs. 120Hz flicker is also common with these bulbs, which can be an issue with prolonged exposure.

I gather that the mass-market selection of recessed-can bulbs is much more broad and they're of better quality _(with resulting greater prices, natch)_, but I don't have any experience with them.


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## Mr Floppy (Jun 16, 2015)

My house is primarily converted to Ikea bulbs. Living close to an ikea helps but the bulbs all say 80+ cri 2700K. Their early bulbs had a peachy rose tint but the latest bulbs are great in both cri and tint. The only light that isn't led is the ikea floor lamp which has a dimmer. None of the dimming bulbs from ikea work with the dimmer.

The bathroom has a special R80 led replacement that is very much heat sink as it is in a 3in1 unit. It uses a number of Samsung smd leds but tint is more 3000K and cri is lower than the ikea. The Mrs puts on the halogen heaters to put the make up on anyway. 

The only other led replacement is from Aldi. It has a self dimmer. If you quickly switch the light off and on, it toggles between 100% and 30% output. cri is pretty good but tint is not 2700K like specified. 

Been a number of years now so can't remember what the bills were like but prior to that had cfl. Only had to change the bulb in the oven fridge and floor lamp over the last 5 years I'd say


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## poiihy (Jun 17, 2015)

JasonJ said:


> But I may have serious issue with any CRI under 90.



If you have no problem right now with your CFLs then you won't have any problem with the LEDs. CFLs usually have CRI of about 80; some as low as 60.


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## JasonJ (Jun 17, 2015)

Good to know. I won't focus as tightly on that aspect then.


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## brickbat (Jun 17, 2015)

Are we just getting too damn fussy? I mean really, I don't recall my parents debating the puts and takes of 4000K vs. 6500k. Or somehow not able to live with any light source under 80 CRI. Just pick the color you like and move on. Sometimes I think this forum contains nothing but princesses unable to sleep on a pea.

First world problems - yawn...


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## poiihy (Jun 17, 2015)

brickbat said:


> Are we just getting too damn fussy? I mean really, I don't recall my parents debating the puts and takes of 4000K vs. 6500k. Or somehow not able to live with any light source under 80 CRI. Just pick the color you like and move on. Sometimes I think this forum contains nothing but princesses unable to sleep on a pea.
> 
> First world problems - yawn...



Ahh, the good old days of incandescent bulbs where the only difference between bulbs is color and brightness.


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## Mr Floppy (Jun 18, 2015)

brickbat said:


> First world problems - yawn...



You are mixing up cri and cct. Cri is the important one, it is the one that may stop you eating rapid bacon


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## CoveAxe (Jun 18, 2015)

Part of the point of this forum (unless I'm grossly misunderstanding it) is to share experiences about lighting and what seems to work and what doesn't.

JasonJ specifically asked about advice for getting some LED bulbs. What do you want us to say? "Just get whatever"?

If he is happy with his 6500k lights, then good for him. No one has told him that he has to switch or get anything in particular. People have just said that 6500k is almost universally considered very blue as a light source, or that a higher CRI looks better. I would hardly consider these to be controversial opinions.


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## markr6 (Jun 18, 2015)

brickbat said:


> Are we just getting too damn fussy? I mean really, I don't recall my parents debating the puts and takes of 4000K vs. 6500k. Or somehow not able to live with any light source under 80 CRI. Just pick the color you like and move on. Sometimes I think this forum contains nothing but princesses unable to sleep on a pea.
> 
> First world problems - yawn...



Incandescents were SO easy. Mostly 40, 60 75, 100W flavors with a few others on a limited basis. Now we're FLOODED with hundreds of brands offering everything under the sun. CRI, CCT, wattage, and tint variations even regardless of the CCT or CRI - due to cheap LEDs or some other factor. Then look at the pricing of these things going from $20 one day to $6 the next.

If people want to settle and think crap 80CRI is good enough, that's fine. You're allowed to buy whatever you want. But it simply renders colors incorrectly. Maybe even in a way you PREFER, but it's still incorrect.

Here's just one example I was looking at last night. These are 2 identical nightstands. Sure, if you only look at the top one, it will look OK. But in comparison the difference is huge (at least in person). This is the best my iphone could do. I really doesn't do justice to the incandescent by showing too much red and overexposed in general, but you get the idea. In person, the LED is some weird greenish wood that I did not buy at the furniture store!


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## brickbat (Jun 18, 2015)

OOOWWW my eyes - I can't see - OH and the headache. Help!!!


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## markr6 (Jun 18, 2015)

Stupid remarks won't help JasonJ in his decision.

I'm just passing along info as there is much to consider. Of course if he wanted to light his entire house with yellow bug lights, I'm sure he won't die and could get thru the day...but why would he want to?


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## brickbat (Jun 18, 2015)

JasonJ said:


> Am I thinking too much into this?



Yep. Pick the color you like and move on. And now back to eating my rapid bacon...


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## JasonJ (Jun 18, 2015)

Ignoring the stupidity and bantering....

My living room and bedrooms are painted and decorated in very specific color pallets. I'd like the color of my walls to match what I thought I had painted them. CRI does matter, and while I am not have realized my current 6500k CFL bulbs were so bad, id like to not continue with crap lighting. 

That being said, I also don't have the patience nor the desire to spend money experimenting with options that are easily selectable from the beginning. 

Thanks to those who understood and contributed something helpful.


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## Anders Hoveland (Jun 18, 2015)

JasonJ said:


> My living room and bedrooms are painted and decorated in very specific color pallets. I'd like the color of my walls to match what I thought I had painted them.


LED bulbs may not have great CRI, but the spectrum of LED light tends to mess with the appearance of colors in a very predictable way. It really depends what the color pallet is. If the wall color is golden yellow, lime green, or a deep hue of blue, there should not be any problems. If the walls are forest green, a low color temperature LED bulb may render them with a slightly yellowish cast, but this only tends to be noticeable with lower color temperature LED bulbs. Generally LEDs are not good if there are many wood tones in the room, but special "high CRI" LED spotlights solve this problem, though they are more expensive.





markr6 said:


> If people want to settle and think crap 80CRI is good enough, that's fine. You're allowed to buy whatever you want. But it simply renders colors incorrectly. Maybe even in a way you PREFER, but it's still incorrect.
> 
> Here's just one example I was looking at last night. These are 2 identical nightstands. Sure, if you only look at the top one, it will look OK. But in comparison the difference is huge (at least in person). This is the best my iphone could do. I really doesn't do justice to the incandescent by showing too much red and overexposed in general, but you get the idea. In person, the LED is some weird greenish wood that I did not buy at the furniture store!


That is certainly true. Those camera pictures do not capture the full the difference as it appears in person.

I will say however that wood colors and reds do not look quite as terrible under 85 CRI ≥4000K LED, though these red colors still are not rendered as _brightly _as they would be under natural light (or the tones appear a little dead).




brickbat said:


> Are we just getting too damn fussy? I mean really, I don't recall my parents debating the puts and takes of 4000K vs. 6500k. Or somehow not able to live with any light source under 80 CRI.


Yes, but the bulbs back then were all incandescent, close to the same color temperature (2700-2900K), and all with nearly 100 CRI. Most homes did not have fluorescent fixtures, or if they did it was only in the kitchen and garage, and fluorescent was commonly regarded as poorer quality of light, but people put up with it so they could have a higher color temperature, whiter color of light. Things were simpler back then. Now there are so many options, many consumers do not know where to begin.


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## markr6 (Jun 18, 2015)

JasonJ said:


> My living room and bedrooms are painted and decorated in very specific color pallets. I'd like the color of my walls to match what I thought I had painted them.



Exactly! Hopefully your other remarks were not directed towards me because I was trying to help. This old post from me in another related thread is spot on with that you are saying about quality lighting and the objects/painting in your home:
_
Too bad they sell this junk and people don't care more about quality.

People will spend $4/drink at Starbucks, everyday, but won't pay $15 for a good quality bulb with great color quality. A bulb which will be the sole source of light in their home for 4, 6 or even 12 hours every day. I guess I think differently. I think about the investment I made in the home; the paint color that took forever to decide on, the furniture which wasn't cheap, the time it took to find the right color carpet, the food you prepare and enjoy every night, the smile on my son's face when I make him laugh. I'll pay an extra $8 for a high CRI bulb to see these things under a higher quality of light. That's about $.002 per day, or *6 CENTS *per month. I guarantee I won't miss that $8 after 10 years. Heck, it may last twice as long. Or half...still doesn't matter. _

If brickbat expects something OTHER than "fussiness" on a forum _dedicated specifically _to lighting and quality products, than I don't know what to tell him.


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## JasonJ (Jun 18, 2015)

We're good mark. I appreciate your insight and comments


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## SemiMan (Jun 20, 2015)

Some simple realities about lighting:

- CRI is not an absolute measure of quality, it is a relative measurement compared to a blackbody radiator under 5000k and sunlight at 5000k and above. There is nothing natural about tungsten lightbulbs. You never see that spectrum naturally.

- CCT has infinitely way more impact on color perception than CRI. People complain about somewhat "off" reds under 80CRI 2700K. Want to see "off" colors, then compare blue-green carpet under 100cri 2700k and 80+ CRI 4000K. One makes the carpet look muddy and its not the 80CRI light.

- drop most any people into a room where they don't know the light source and they will not know if its 80CRI led, CFL, or 100 incan. Most of the claims made are side by side comparisons, but the real world is 100% one light and fully adapted eyes (to that light). I did this comparison with well over a 100 interior designers and none of them could reliably pick out the 100CRI incan let alone pick out what was supposed to be the bad CFL. I had 4 sources including one incan. Statistically at least a few should have guessed which was which but they all got it wrong and they did not pick the Incan any more reliably than random. This was decorators who should know color.

- I personally have very high CRI lighting in my kitchen at 4000k. It has been shown that at typical indoor levels 4000k is the most "white" light. In the kitchen at typical lighting levels all the colors look right which is nice for cooking.

- Bedrooms are 2700 as blue is bad for sleeping though I do have 4000k for reading.

- living room is 3000k and will convert to warm dimming when a bit cheaper.

- family/home theatre is warm dim pot lights with shields so not much light on screen

- garage, workshop, lab are all high CCT, high CRI. I like to mix 5000 and 6500k tubes. Maybe lower CRI would have worked but the high cri daylight tubes were first i tried and are a pleasure to work under for long hours.

Any time you are doing precision work including reading, higher CCT is desired as it causes the iris in your eye to close improving depth of field, and hence effectively focus and reducing eye strain. It should also be a low flicker source. Typical linear electronic fluorescent and good quality LED troffers are low flicker. Many bulbs are not.


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## markr6 (Jun 20, 2015)

Good info there semiman. The one thing I can't get over is the CRI. Between the two Crees I've tried (2700k 80 and 93CRI), only the 93 was acceptable. 80 was dingy and most things appeared a strange hue (carpet, walls, skin, etc)


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## SemiMan (Jun 20, 2015)

How much time did you give yourself to adapt to either light. Most of the times those claims are made its a close AB and that emphasizes the added red in the higher CRI unnaturally but its like too much bass.... Seems great to start.

Posted by really crappy Tapatalk app that is questionable wrt respect of personal data.


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## markr6 (Jun 20, 2015)

I had 4 bulbs in 2 ceiling lights in the hallway for a couple of weeks. My wife complained from the start, and I never really got used to it. The 93 CRI bulbs are great though. No one would know they're not incandescents, but most importantly I can't tell. Either way, I'm the one living here 24/7 so I don't really care what anyone else would think.


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## SemiMan (Jun 20, 2015)

Are the ceiling lights open, clear/clear smoked, alabaster? I do know the 80s can have real issues in commom alabaster ceiling lights.

What brand are they? I do perceive Philips and other bulbs to be a bit better than Cree. Cree had way too much flicker for my tastes.

Posted by really crappy Tapatalk app that is questionable wrt respect of personal data.


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## MattPete (Jun 25, 2015)

[/QUOTE]


This (^^^^) is why I'm not upgrading the rest of my home for a few more years. Yes, I've replaced the BR40s and Br30s in my kitchen, family room, and basement, as they tend to be left on all the time. But, the poor color rendering is making me stick with incadecents/halogens for the rest of the house (not to mention that putting an LED in a closet makes no economic sense).

For giggles, I bought a Solux 3500k Par38 last week. Frankly, the color temperature seemed to be a close match to my Lighting Science 4000k br30 (other bulbs were a halogen BR40, a 5000k Philips, a Lighting Science 3000k bulb, and various 2700k bulbs). Yes, it was definitely whiter, but my wood cabinets looked like picture #2 (above). The LED lights all looked like picture #1.


SORAA is supposed to come out with a BR30 later this year. I'll probably buy one to sample, but I'm guessing I'll wait a year or two for a global price drop before I go full in on high-CRI lighting. When I do that, the low-cri (current stuff) will be moved to closets, the kids bathroom, garage, etc.


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## poiihy (Jun 25, 2015)

I like the picture of the nightstand under the cree bulb. The picture of the nightstand under the incandescent bulb looks like the nightstand has some red bloodstain or winestain inside. Under the cree it looks more real.


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## markr6 (Jun 26, 2015)

poiihy said:


> I like the picture of the nightstand under the cree bulb. The picture of the nightstand under the incandescent bulb looks like the nightstand has some red bloodstain or winestain inside. Under the cree it looks more real.



Ahh I was waiting for someone to say that!!

TRUST ME, in person it's a night and day difference. The Cree looks SOOOOO wrong. The incandescent isn't so red in person, but rather the *proper color of the wood* like everything else in that matching bedroom set.

If it was some type of weird wood or maple, I could see the yellowish-green in the first photo being acceptable, but not for a rich, warm oak color.


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## Mr Floppy (Jun 26, 2015)

brickbat said:


> Yep. Pick the color you like and move on. And now back to eating my rapid bacon...



Bah, Stupid auto correct. Don't know how it got rapid from rancid


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## SemiMan (Jun 26, 2015)

markr6 said:


> Ahh I was waiting for someone to say that!!
> 
> TRUST ME, in person it's a night and day difference. The Cree looks SOOOOO wrong. The incandescent isn't so red in person, but rather the *proper color of the wood* like everything else in that matching bedroom set.
> 
> If it was some type of weird wood or maple, I could see the yellowish-green in the first photo being acceptable, but not for a rich, warm oak color.



Need a corresponding picture under sunlight for reference.


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## markr6 (Jun 26, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> Need a corresponding picture under sunlight for reference.



Too much work for me  Every 15 minutes would give a different color anyway (clouds, atmosphere, etc.) We beat that to death in every other thread. We're talking about a simple bedroom here. What is "right" and "wrong" is pretty obvious to most people, regardless of the reference. We won't be moving this bedroom outside anytime soon. The furniture we picked out in the showroom, while unloading outside, and under incandescent pretty much looked as it should. Under the CREE, nope.


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## MattPete (Jun 26, 2015)

markr6 said:


> ...
> 
> TRUST ME, in person it's a night and day difference. The Cree looks SOOOOO wrong. The incandescent isn't so red in person, but rather the *proper color of the wood* like everything else in that matching bedroom set....




My wood cabinets all look the same, whether under incandescent, daylight, or Solux. It's only under 80 cri LED lighting that they lose their saturated brown look and take on that less saturated/more yellowish hue shown in your picture #1.


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## Anders Hoveland (Jul 16, 2015)

JasonJ said:


> Looking to upgrade entire home to LED...


If you have recessed downlights, changing to LED in these fixtures is a great option. Otherwise, whether to upgrade to LED is not so clear cut.

In my personal opinion, LED bulbs are not _really_ ready to replace all the bulbs in our homes. Many people _have_ done it, but there are just many complications and problems. Where LED bulbs make the most sense is in fixtures that get left on all the time, where the quality of light is not too important, and where the bulb it is replacing was not a higher wattage. So for example, in a lamp over the entry way, or in a lamp near a window in the front of the house that you leave on all the time while you are gone to make potential thieves think there is someone home.

I am still using mostly incandescent and halogen bulbs in all the lamps, with the exception of some 3000K 95cri LED bulbs in a bathroom, and a 3000K regular LED bulb in one of the lamps in the computer room that gets left on all the time. Also using LED bulbs in the outside fixtures. I tried regular 2700K and 3000K LED bulbs in the bathroom, and just could not stand the poor CRI. My skin looked a sickly dead tone when I looked at myself in the mirror. So I had to get special high-cri bulbs (were very expensive) and things are much better now. It doesn't feel like all the life and color has been sucked out of the room anymore.

Also I need 100 Watt replacements and most of these higher power LED bulbs would not fit into my lamps because of the wide diameter of their cooling fins.


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