# Best Kept Secret?



## MDJAK (Feb 3, 2012)

I'm rather new to this hobby and this forum but am greatly enjoying all aspects of it. I'm very fortunate in that I can afford to buy toys, have a very understanding wife who is all for whatever I want to do.

So, since getting into this, I've visited only the LED part of the forum, almost ignorant or blind to this section. In fact, when looking at how many people are viewing, it seems the overwhelming interest is in LEDs.

I'm not sure why that is, but since discovering this section, and finding youtube videos of Polarion lights, I now know what I want. 

In the short time I'm into this, I've amassed (if that's the right word, though probably an exaggeration thus far), a Jetbeam RRT3, the Tiny Monster, a Zebra SC600. and various Surefire lights.

However, I now got the jones bad for an HID, and I want a Polarion. Not sure what the heck I'll use it for, as all I do now is light up my large backyard when I play with my dogs, or go out on 3 mile walks at night. 

The Polarion would probably be overkill for that, but I've been told that Overkill is my middle name, and I'm damn proud of it.

So, I ask you, as I hearken back to the title of this post, are HID lights the best kept secret? Are they not as popular because they are quite pricey?

Does the price equate to not only many fold increase in brightness and throw, or does the price also stand for quality construction and materials that cannot be found in lights a quarter of the price and less, or both?

mark


----------



## BVH (Feb 3, 2012)

LED's are good - I keep one in my pocket all the time. But...they are NOT as fun as having and using HID's, in my humble opinion. As with LED's, there are low, medium and high quality lights. Polarion being in the HIGH quality arena. There's nothing like holding a Polarion in your hand. It probably is a little over the top for walking the dog but then, most of us HID junkies want over the top Lumens even though we don't necessarily need them. If you can afford one, definitely get one to experience it. There's lots of other fun HIDs, too that don't cost nearly as much but provide lots of joy!


----------



## FRITZHID (Feb 3, 2012)

i'm an HID junky myself, altho my LEDs have their place, 1 EDC, 1 nightstand red, and 1 in the car as a standby, all with Lithiums. but HIDs are by far my fav's. i currently own the Stanley HID 35w, semi modded, with more mods in the works, including a Short Arc version! 
i'm also working on a 100w F&F mod, possibly for production in my local area since many seem to be impressed by my Stanley but are unable to find them in any local wallyworlds.
IMO if i had the funds (and understanding that your wife has, lol) i'd have my hands on the newest Maxabeam, great light for the $, especially since they now are available with Lithium batts!
just watchout, you could end up like BVH and end up with a 5' Carbon Arc in your back yard and guys in blue with big guns/hand cuffs knocking at your door cause you accidentally lit up an aircraft! lmao (not say'n BVH ever had that happen, but it could)
Good Luck in your HID endeavors and welcome to the HIGH BEAM section of CPF!


----------



## StarHalo (Feb 3, 2012)

HID lights aren't a secret, the majority of the mind-blowing beamshots on this site are HID (the smaller minority being xenon short-arc). Just be aware that it's so bright that it cannot be used at all in an urban or suburban setting. It's a bit like owning a race car; there's a very limited and specific time and place to use it, but it's totally worth it once you do..


----------



## Entrope (Feb 3, 2012)

_(Post Removed)_


----------



## Mr. Tone (Feb 4, 2012)

I love LED's and have a lot of great current LED flashlights. However, HID really blows them away for massive lumens and throw. For example, my Titanium Innovations N30 has about 5x the candlepower of my Thrunite Catapult V3 and 3-4x the amount of lumens. 

As someone said, in a urban/suburban area you would not be welcome using an HID light. You can't avoid being noticed and also noticing everything within a minimum of 500 yards. 

If you don't want to spend too much at first just to get your feet wet go with the T.I. N30. It is under $200 and about the size of a 6 volt floating lantern/spotlight. It is a favorite around here. If you want Rolex quality and don't mind the $$$ go with Polarion. There are a lot of threads around to see what Polarion is all about.


----------



## acgriff (Feb 4, 2012)

Ditto on th N30.


----------



## MikeAusC (Feb 4, 2012)

But keep in mind that if you instantly need maximum brightness, you can do that with an LED - not with HID. 

And once you've turned it off, you can immediately turn an LED on again - not an HID. 

And dimming . . . . .


----------



## BVH (Feb 4, 2012)

A typical 35 Watt HID will immediately light off with about 600 to 1000 Lumens. Many HID's can instantly re-strike. If done regularly, instead of 3000 hours of bulb life, you may end up with 1000 hours, which can last the lifetime of ownership of an HID light so no real realized negative affects. Dimming...well can't offer any remedies there.


----------



## MDJAK (Feb 5, 2012)

Very interesting and educational replies. Much appreciated.


----------



## Mr. Tone (Feb 6, 2012)

MDJAK, you have got to check out some of BVH's threads. He has and has had some of the coolest and most powerful lights I have seen on this forum. If you haven't yet seen it you need to check out his thread on the 60" Carbon Arc from WWII. There is nothing that I have seen here that has more lumens and candlepower than that beast. It needed it's own trailer and generator, now that's serious!


----------



## Greenbean (Feb 6, 2012)

*I impress many a LEO buddy with my Stanley HID spotlight with a 4300K bulb I installed. 

It's absolutely stupid bright compared to anything they have in or on a cruiser... HAHAHA*


----------



## JulianP (Feb 6, 2012)

LEDs are great for lighting up the room. HIDs are great for lighting up all the rooms in the street (just ask my neighbours). Short-arc lights are good for lighting up the room... in the next suburb.


----------



## Mr. Tone (Feb 6, 2012)

To the OP, I just spotted this Polarion PH40 in the MarketPlace. It looks minty. http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?261746-WTS-Polarion-PH40


----------



## yifu (Feb 7, 2012)

JulianP said:


> LEDs are great for lighting up the room. HIDs are great for lighting up all the rooms in the street (just ask my neighbours). Short-arc lights are good for lighting up the room... in the next suburb.


Well said.


----------



## eai2l (Feb 8, 2012)

BTW for noobs like me, after searching, i found out that the n30 is made by titanium innovations, but seems to be discontinued.


----------



## Mr. Tone (Feb 8, 2012)

eai2l said:


> BTW for noobs like me, after searching, i found out that the n30 is made by titanium innovations, but seems to be discontinued.



I just went to BatteryJunction to check on your statement and there is no N30 on the Titanium Innovations product page. I wonder what gives? Maybe MattK will let us all know what is going on at some point as this seems odd.


----------



## MDJAK (Feb 10, 2012)

Mr. Tone said:


> MDJAK, you have got to check out some of BVH's threads. He has and has had some of the coolest and most powerful lights I have seen on this forum. If you haven't yet seen it you need to check out his thread on the 60" Carbon Arc from WWII. There is nothing that I have seen here that has more lumens and candlepower than that beast. It needed it's own trailer and generator, now that's serious!



I definitely will.


----------



## Patriot (Feb 13, 2012)

They may only be less popular due to the fact that most 35W and higher HID's are fairly large when compared to most LED lights. That is to say, that HIDs typically reside in a different size category of illumination tool as compared to LED. Also, we don't have as many high quality manufacturers to chose from and the best HIDs available are quite expensive. 

They are truly "secrets" in that the amount of throw per given lumen rating is usually much greater than most LED lights. Even a small 10W HID is capable of producing some incredible lux readings although the total lumen output would be unimpressive by today's LED standards. 

I used to think of HID as the exotic or unlimited realm of portable lighting but obviously LED's are developing at an amazing rate and with cutting edge technology. They have the advantage of being clustered together in a single device allowing multiplied output, albeit at the drawback of limited, practical frontal area and thermal management. The XM18 for example reportedly possesses tremendous performance but due to the aforementioned reasons it seems better suited to industrial application that it does the spelunker, woodsman, or dog walker. 

I do think HID is exotic in the sense of pure performance, after all, most military or commercial lighting involves some form of HID tech. On the extreme enthusiast side and as Mr. Tone wrote, everyone should see some of the projects and beamshots posted by member BVH. For light junkie like me, it's only natural I'd be drawn to a device capable of the highest order of throw, impressive total lumen output, great efficiency and color, and all in a package 3-4 inches in diameter.


----------



## MDJAK (Feb 19, 2012)

Appreciate the insight here. But I must ask Patriot. I watched your video comparing 3 different HIDs and the SR 90. It seemed as if the SR 90 held up real well. Am I wrong about that? I recently got one. I like it for its throw but am always looking for more spill as I walk winding dark roads. 

Looking forward to receiving my first HID.


----------



## MDJAK (Feb 22, 2012)

Thank you for that explanation. When I watched your video in that park, I was a bit confused, as I am from your explanation, as to exactly what the difference is between the hot spot and the corona. Is there a diagram you can either draw or point me to so I see what the three distinct portions are?

Thanks again for being so willing to help.


----------



## Cyclops942 (Feb 24, 2012)

Mr. Tone said:


> I just went to BatteryJunction to check on your statement and there is no N30 on the Titanium Innovations product page. I wonder what gives? Maybe MattK will let us all know what is going on at some point as this seems odd.



It is my understanding that the N30 has been replaced/superseded by the Titanium Innovations L35 (35W, 3500 lumens), which is currently available from MattK for around $300, in either black or Coast Guard Orange. (The N30 and L35 not only look amazingly similar, they use the same filter/diffuser lens covers and power cords for the charger.)

I just bought the orange version from him at SHOT Show, and had my first chance to play with it-- I mean TEST it  when I was in Sedona this past weekend.

Wow... for my first-ever HID light... just wow. It very easily lit up the sides of buildings over a quarter of a mile away from me.


----------



## Patriot (Feb 24, 2012)

Originally, it was supposed to be the case that the two models would be offered side by side, a value version and a more expensive, higher tech battery version. 

Perhaps the N30 is back ordered and has been removed from their site?


----------



## biscuitbarrel (Feb 27, 2012)

Entrope said:


> StarHalo's signature is pretty much why I love HID's so much.



What is that in his signature? Some kind of lantern?


----------



## StarHalo (Feb 27, 2012)

It's an HID bulb cooling down after being on for a minute or so. The arc chamber where the actual light is produced glows orange, the glass of the bulb glows blue, from the ~2000 degree operating temperature.


----------



## Patriot (Feb 27, 2012)

StarHalo said:


> It's an HID bulb cooling down after being on for a minute or so. The arc chamber where the actual light is produced glows orange, the glass of the bulb glows blue, from the ~2000 degree operating temperature.



Plasma is cool! oo: ....so is StarHalo's signature.


----------



## StarHalo (Feb 27, 2012)

You can see the larger version of the image here.


----------



## Ginseng (Feb 29, 2012)

Well back when I was starting out in lights, incans were where you went if you wanted immense output. And it wasn't a bad place to start as even the most powerful bulbs (100W-250W) were just a couple of bucks a piece. It was easy and cheap to experiment. And then LEDs started to become competitive, at least in multiples. But they needed drivers, electronics, etc. so up another level of complication. Affordable high output handheld HIDs were not around back then, but they are now. So as far as I'm concerned, the time is ripe for that technology to shine. A handheld 4,000 lumen light that runs for an hour on a fistful of batteries and throws like a monster? Yeah, I'll take that.

Wilkey

Oh, and a $300 Off coupon on a $700 light suggests to me that Patriot was pretty spot on with his assessment. Unless the vendor can demonstrate a tangible difference in terms of performance or quality, it doesn't seem a prudent expenditure.


----------



## MDJAK (Mar 4, 2012)

sorry this thread turned into what it did. Let's try to get back on topic.

So, fellas, due to y'all , I just FINALLY pulled the trigger. Yep, just ordered the Abyss. I can't wait to get it. You'll be the first to know, as I didn't tell the little woman, though I could and will. LOL. I told her with the CPF discount, it's only a grand. That sounded better than 1400, don't ya think? And I got the retention lanyard also.

Oh, fun times to come. Come to think of it, I'm about to use my B&H gift cards to order the new Canon Speedlite. Presents, I love presents, even when I buy them for myself.

mark


----------



## Ginseng (Mar 4, 2012)

MDJAK said:


> sorry this thread turned into what it did. Let's try to get back on topic.
> 
> So, fellas, due to y'all , I just FINALLY pulled the trigger. Yep, just ordered the Abyss. I can't wait to get it. You'll be the first to know, as I didn't tell the little woman, though I could and will. LOL. I told her with the CPF discount, it's only a grand. That sounded better than 1400, don't ya think? And I got the retention lanyard also.
> 
> ...


Where did you pick up the Abyss? If you don't mind my asking.

Wilkey


----------



## MDJAK (Mar 4, 2012)

Don't mind at all. I got no secrets. :lol:

I really couldn't decide between the P40 and the Abyss. There is a P40 for sale on the marketplace, price has been reduced, asking 1250, but shipping I think from Malaysia. I trust the seller, but he wants 1250 plus over a hundred for shipping for a 2 yr old light. 

I applied the CPF discount coupon directly with Polarion and that's 25 percent off. The light sells for $1895, as you probably know, but it comes down to a little over 1400 with the discount. I also ordered the tether. Can't wait.

mark


----------



## Ginseng (Mar 4, 2012)

Thanks! A fella can dream. 

Wilkey


----------



## khalwat (Mar 9, 2012)

MDJAK said:


> Don't mind at all. I got no secrets. :lol:
> 
> I really couldn't decide between the P40 and the Abyss. There is a P40 for sale on the marketplace, price has been reduced, asking 1250, but shipping I think from Malaysia. I trust the seller, but he wants 1250 plus over a hundred for shipping for a 2 yr old light.
> 
> ...



As someone who just recently purchased a Polarion Abyss Dual S, I can safely say that you will not be disappointed. It's a fantastic dive light, as well as being a pretty sick searchlight.

Also, hai Wilkey. Still skipping?  Moki


----------



## MDJAK (Mar 9, 2012)

It came yesterday. Only played for few minutes. It is amazing. Can't wait for it to get dark tonight.


----------



## Trevtrain (Apr 7, 2012)

Hi guys, long time reader but new poster.

On the theme of "best kept secret" could this possibly be due to HID technology being more fragile or more complicated? 
For example, most LED flashlights seem to be pretty durable when compared with older bulb-style lights. Even my long serving ancient mini-mag (which was a great light for its day) would almost certainly chip/break the little pin-type bulb if I accidentally dropped it on a hard surface. Filament bulbs just don't like impacts - especially when running. 
In addition, apart from some schooling on Li-Ion battery precautions, pretty much anyone can pick up an LED model, press the switch and use it much the same way as the "old-fashioned" incans they grew up with. But it seems HIDs might require a lot more care.

I really haven't looked much into HID because it seemed so "specialised" and as others here have pointed out, not really suitable for built-up areas but I do have a couple of questions that perhaps someone can help with.

Are the bulbs replaceable in any of these HID lights? With 50,000 hours typically quoted for LEDs, 3,000 hrs (or as little as 1,000 if improperly used) makes these lights seem a bit short-lived in comparison.
Do HID lights require more careful handling than LED alternatives? Can they tolerate accidental physical abuse such as dropping onto concrete?
I gather the current drain is very high on most of these lights - does this mean IMR batteries are the only practical power source, or do most users stick to primaries?
As IMRs have no protection do HID manufacturers need to provide better regulation in the light itself to avoid over-discharge or does it fall to the user to manage cell voltages more carefully?
Just some things I wondered; any info you could share would be welcome.

Thanks folks
Trev


----------



## FRITZHID (Apr 7, 2012)

1) alot of HID lights have replaceable lamps, infact, alot of us replace the stock 6000k-8000k lamps with 4200k-5000k for a nicer color, or replace stock 55w with 35w bulbs.
2) HIDs have much better impact preformance then Halogens, and are probably comparable to LED in that reguard. more likely a ballast or connection failure due to impact then the bulb. and like any other light the front lens is more likely to break then the bulb itself.
3) current drain in comparison to Halogen is actualy less per lumen. the split sec start up of a 35w-55w is in the 10A draw for less then 1 second, then dropping down to as low as 2A for constant run. my Stanley draws 2.14A once warmed up. it's 35w. most LiPo batts don't have an issue with this draw.
4) as far as discharge, some light do, most don't have a low protection for the Batts. alot of the Ballasts DO cut off at a certen voltage, but depending on the Batt set up your useing this may or may not be within the lo-volt batt specs. i would personaly test the ballasts lo-volt cut off and go from there. not to mention it would not be hard to make a lo-volt cutoff circuit for these.

if i've mistaken any of these thoughts, feel free to correct me, this is just baised on what i've read and exp'd in my projects.


----------



## Trevtrain (Apr 10, 2012)

Thanks for the update Fritzhid.

A 10A startup would be a problem for some protected cells I would think as I have read that they can have over-current trips as well as low/high-voltage detection. I wonder if a "split-second" startup as you describe it would be detected as a short and trip the circuit? No problem for IMR I assume.

I haven't seen many HID products in retail outlets here in Australia so your talk of replacing lamps or testing ballasts is a bit new for me. Making circuitry (lo-volt or otherwise) is something I haven't played with since my days of messing around with electronics "kits" as a kid. Guess I just need to learn where to look for the info and parts - I assume most of you HID guys shop online for what you need?

I've really only seriously started researching high quality LED products over the past couple of years - damn, now I have a whole new area to go out and investigate! 

Cheers


----------



## FRITZHID (Apr 10, 2012)

well, i did some testing on a 55w HID with some IMR & protected cells last night, and the start up surge wasn't even near enough to trip the cutoffs, it's a fraction of a second, barely even registered on my meter, had to put it on the oscilloscope to see it at all, lol.
i source my ballasts/bulbs on line.


----------



## Trevtrain (Apr 10, 2012)

Thanks Fritz, that's useful to know.


----------

