# Do you believe in ghosts/poltergeists?



## WAVE_PARTICLE (Aug 20, 2006)

:eeksign:  


As for me, I don't believe in them. I am a firm believer that the universe that we live in follows certain rules. There's just no way for ghosts to exist the way some believe. Most "reported" cases are likely hoaxes or misplaced perceptions.

Do you believe in them? More interestingly, have any of you ever seen or experienced one?


:thumbsup: WP


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 20, 2006)

I don't have a specific belief in them, although I also believe that just because we might have no means of detecting something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Because of this it's much harder to prove that something _doesn't_ exist.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Aug 20, 2006)

I'll bite.

Yes, I believe. My current house is haunted, although with friendly spirits. My wife and I hear footsteps through the house after we've gone to bed. Sometimes we smell pipe smoke in one corner of the living room near the wood stove, even though no one smokes in my house. The spot we smell the pipe smoke in would be perfect for someone to place an easy chair and put his feet up to the fire. Sometimes my wife and I will be laying in bed and I'll feel the hair on the back of my neck stand up, that I'm-being-watched feeling. At the same time my wife will stiffen and ask if she thinks we're alone, obviously feeling the same thing. I'll say outloud "This is our bedroom, may we have some privacy, please?" and the feeling will go away, leaving an air of apology. Same in the bathroom sometimes, though very rarely. Lights occasionally turn themselves on when rooms are entered and doors occasionally open themselves when approached. I always say "thank you" when that happens. At first I was just saying it as a general thank you to the world at large for making life more convenient for me by that much, but I've since gotten the impression that the light and door spirit is a child, or sometimes children. A boy and a girl, the girl a couple of years older than the boy. What else? Sometimes one of my cats will be curled around on the sofa with his belly in the air purring loudly(he sounds like my truck idling) as he usually does when having his belly rubbed, but no one's there. Other times both cats will watch something move about the room, something which they can both plainly see and track. I'll look close and see a hint of movement or a change of shadow, sometimes a fleeting shape, but nothing more. Shining a flashlight on it makes it disappear. The cats don't seem bothered by it, the way they are when other cats or dogs or certain people are around, which reassures me.

I don't feel any malice, anger, or danger from any of these people. I don't feel that my wife and I are in any way unsafe here because of them. In fact, I do believe they would help as much as they could should we be in danger. They're quite welcome in our home, so long as they stay out of the bedroom. 


Cheers all! :buddies:


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## LifeNRA (Aug 20, 2006)

I believe in the Devil and his demons.
I also believe in Angels.


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## benchmade_boy (Aug 21, 2006)

i definetly believe in them and i believe in heaven and hell. i think that somtimes they just get lost on there way to heaven and wonder around until they find there way to heaven or someone tells them to go to heaven.


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## brightSwede (Aug 21, 2006)

Diesel_bomber:

That was very interesting. How old is your house? Do you know much about its history?


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## Silviron (Aug 21, 2006)

I don't actually believe in them... But I have very definitely experienced at least one on a couple of different occasions.

And a couple of other 'supernatural' type entities, one of which might have been a dream, but the other was definitely not; I think I posted that story here in the Cafe or in the Underground a few years ago.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Aug 21, 2006)

brightSwede said:


> Diesel_bomber:
> 
> That was very interesting. How old is your house? Do you know much about its history?



The original house was built around 1900. At that time, it was just the living room(the same one with the fireplace and the pipe smoke) and a couple of what were then bedrooms. Over time the house has been added to. I don't know much history about the house, but I do know it was in the same family since it was built until the owner directly before me.


:buddies:


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 21, 2006)

No.

I'm disappointed in the current poll results - only 55%, including myself, have said "No." Do you guys believe in witches, prophets, and Jabba the Hutt as well?

I sometimes tell myself that I really do believe in Spider-Man (the very embodiment of awesomeness), but it's just wishful thinking.


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## Lit Up (Aug 21, 2006)

This is only a 3.2 MB download.
"Ghost Girl"

This guy could've used a SureFire to flash in that room, but then might of "gave it away." *ahem* 

The first scene looks like she's coming from the corner of the room. The other two times he has the camera in that direction, you'll just have to look hard to catch a fast glimpse of her.

See what you guys think.


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## Delvance (Aug 21, 2006)

Eeehh the link doesn't work...it takes me to uhm...wannabe naughty ? sites and tries to download crap on my comp.



Lit Up said:


> This is only a 3.2 MB download.
> "Ghost Girl"
> 
> This guy could've used a SureFire to flash in that room, but then might of "gave it away." *ahem*
> ...


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## Planterz (Aug 21, 2006)

I don't belive in anything paranormal or supernatural, and that includes God, reincarnation, ghosts, souls, ESP, etc. I mean no offense to anybody by lumping religion with that other stuff, but in my mind it's all the same.


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## LowBat (Aug 21, 2006)

It's interesting to imagine they might exist. However nobody has been able to come up with any credible proof to support such a notion. I've been to several supposedly haunted places, and never did I experience anything that could be considered supernatural.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Aug 21, 2006)

Diesel_Bomber said:


> I'll bite.
> 
> Yes, I believe. My current house is haunted, although with friendly spirits. My wife and I hear footsteps through the house after we've gone to bed. Sometimes we smell pipe smoke in one corner of the living room near the wood stove, even though no one smokes in my house. The spot we smell the pipe smoke in would be perfect for someone to place an easy chair and put his feet up to the fire. Sometimes my wife and I will be laying in bed and I'll feel the hair on the back of my neck stand up, that I'm-being-watched feeling. At the same time my wife will stiffen and ask if she thinks we're alone, obviously feeling the same thing. I'll say outloud "This is our bedroom, may we have some privacy, please?" and the feeling will go away, leaving an air of apology. Same in the bathroom sometimes, though very rarely. Lights occasionally turn themselves on when rooms are entered and doors occasionally open themselves when approached. I always say "thank you" when that happens. At first I was just saying it as a general thank you to the world at large for making life more convenient for me by that much, but I've since gotten the impression that the light and door spirit is a child, or sometimes children. A boy and a girl, the girl a couple of years older than the boy. What else? Sometimes one of my cats will be curled around on the sofa with his belly in the air purring loudly(he sounds like my truck idling) as he usually does when having his belly rubbed, but no one's there. Other times both cats will watch something move about the room, something which they can both plainly see and track. I'll look close and see a hint of movement or a change of shadow, sometimes a fleeting shape, but nothing more. Shining a flashlight on it makes it disappear. The cats don't seem bothered by it, the way they are when other cats or dogs or certain people are around, which reassures me.
> 
> ...


 


:eeksign: Are you serious? Lights that turn on themselves? hmmm..... what's the usual frequency of these occurances? Do you actually see anything? Like a physical apparition or objects moving?

WP


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## Lee1959 (Aug 21, 2006)

I look at it as who knows. I certainly do not believe man knows it all, or even half of what there is to know about theuniverse and how it works. So who knows? To say there there is no possiblity, seems to be the height of arrogance to me. Who knows that a ghost is? It could be like a television signal set on rewind and play, who knows? Perhaps there is something after life, and a way to touch both sides, who knows? Not I. 

I do hope that there are still things like ghosts, some unfound animals bigfoot or the like, or other things still to discover in the world, it would be pretty boring otherwise.


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## senecaripple (Aug 21, 2006)

i love to hear about ghost stories! have yet to see one or experience any alien abductions!


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## Zigzago (Aug 21, 2006)

Diesel_Bomber said:


> Shining a flashlight on it makes it disappear.



A new use for flashlights! Who ya gonna call?

Interesting story, though. 

I know people who have had such experiences but until I have one of my own I have to vote "no."


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## jch79 (Aug 21, 2006)

What about an unsure/sort of/maybe option??


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## Archangel (Aug 21, 2006)

Actually, depending on how you define "witch", i know one. Not believing in something is one thing, as is not understanding why someone else would, but ripping - even indirectly - on people because they do? That's a bit uncalled for.


TigerhawkT3 said:


> No.
> I'm disappointed in the current poll results - only 55%, including myself, have said "No." Do you guys believe in witches, prophets, and Jabba the Hutt as well?


 

BTW, if there's no way for ghosts to exist, wouldn't *all* reported cases have to be hoaxes or misplaced perceptions?


WAVE_PARTICLE said:


> As for me, I don't believe in them. I am a firm believer that the universe that we live in follows certain rules. There's just no way for ghosts to exist the way some believe. Most "reported" cases are likely hoaxes or misplaced perceptions.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Aug 21, 2006)

WAVE_PARTICLE said:


> :eeksign: Are you serious? Lights that turn on themselves? hmmm..... what's the usual frequency of these occurances? Do you actually see anything? Like a physical apparition or objects moving?
> 
> WP



Yup, I'm serious. It usually happens a couple times a month, though it's variable. Seems like they go through periods of more activity and less. The last couple of months it's been less; due to pick up again any time now. I've not seen anything other than the brief flicker and change of shadow or a suggestion of a shape that I mention above. The lights turning on is usually a switch that's across the room or behind the wall and hard for me to get to in the dark, so having someone else turn it on can be a real blessing. I don't actually see the switch move but I've definitely heard the muted "click" of the switch being thrown. I rewired the entire house when I bought it; I'm amazed the old wiring hadn't burnt the house down. The doors opening, I've never seen a knob turn, but they're all highly polished and it's entirely possible I just haven't seen it.

I don't know how it works, I don't pretend to know or understand. I've had one near-death experience, which I won't share here, that scared the beejeezus out of me and opened my mind to the possibility of an afterlife. Heaven? Hell? God? No clue. I doubt it. I find the idea that a being who is powerful enough to create our world in a single work week, and still have time to rest, would be interested in our little problems, to be rather ridiculous. But I'm open to the possibility. I definitely agree that to think that anyone knows how this existence works is sheer arrogance, something we humans are notorious for. I've seen enough strange things in my life to think that anything truly is possible. With my direct experiences I do believe in ghosts. I've gone into friend's houses and gotten a feeling I can't describe, the same thing I get here. I'll ask if the house is haunted, and sure enough their eyes will get big and they'll say yes and ask how the fork did I know? I can only guess that there are several planes or levels of existence and that I'm slightly more aware of it than others. I can easily envision a time millenia in the future where humans are enlightened enough to be aware of and interract with these spirits, if we manage not to destroy the planet in the mean time. If absolute proof of space aliens was uncovered, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Though I would think that aliens smart enough to get here, wouldn't. Maybe they're not all that different from us after all. Anyway, enough rambling on philosophical matters. If nothing more, this isn't the thread for it. Sorry WP.


Cheers. Now if only I could get those spirits to brew a decent pot of coffee! :buddies:


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Aug 21, 2006)

Thanks for sharing, DB. I find this quite fascinating!

:thumbsup: WP


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## Pydpiper (Aug 21, 2006)

Interesting thread, I have never had a personal experience that has caused me to lean in one direction or the other..
Diesel, great story!


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## greenlight (Aug 21, 2006)

I haven't voted yet, although I believe that I saw a ghost as a 'teen. I don't tend to think about ghosts, and don't feel them all around me, as one might expect.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 21, 2006)

Red text mine.


Archangel said:


> 1. Actually, depending on how you define "witch", i know one. Not believing in something is one thing, as is not understanding why someone else would, but ripping - even indirectly - on people because they do? That's a bit uncalled for.
> 
> 
> 2. BTW, if there's no way for ghosts to exist, wouldn't *all* reported cases have to be hoaxes or misplaced perceptions?


1. Sorry to be blunt, but I have no patience for this kind of thinking. You don't know any witches. You might know someone who THINKS or BELIEVES that he or she is a witch, or someone who is or has been thought by one or more other people to be a witch, or possibly both. However, no matter how many kids seriously believe that they're Superman, you're not going to hear about any newly discovered former citizens of the planet Krypton.

2. Yes, they would indeed have to be hoaxes or misplaced perceptions. WP was just trying to be subtle and inoffensive, but I guess it didn't get through.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Aug 21, 2006)

My, my, my, TigerHawk! Someone without my self confidence might almost be insulted. Sniff, sniff! :lolsign:



Cheers, buddy! :buddies:


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## revolvergeek (Aug 21, 2006)

As the Bard said "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy". I don't believe in them, but I can't swear that they don't exist either. It would be a much more interesting world if ghosts haunted buildings and aliens flew in the sky. I have seen things that I could not really explain, but nothing that ever convinced me that ghosts, aliens, vampires, etc actually exist. 

How I do wish that they did though. Having a Chupacabra running around the neighborhood at night would convince a lot of people to get their CCWs in a hurry!


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## Archangel (Aug 21, 2006)

Well look at you, TigerHawk, being an expert on my life. Never heard of Wicca, i assume? While we're exchanging views, i have little patience for people who seem to think they know more than they do, but i won't go out and actually *write* that you fall into that category, because i don't *know*. As for the other statement, how subtle and inoffensive is it to ask if anyone believes something that obviously doesn't exist? I don't go around saying that twenty-year-olds should think before they write and then ask if there are any twenty-year-olds around.


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## TinderBox (UK) (Aug 21, 2006)

approx 6 billion people on the earth now, occupying the same space as past generations, just in another future time.

think about the space you occupy now as you sit their at you computer.

how many people, animals and objects have existed in that exact space.

ghosts could simply be a glimpse into another time, what makes it happen i cannot say.

But what will be occupying that space 100 years from now.

PS. I heard from an neighbor that an old couple committed suicide in my bedroom by drilling into the gas pipe, have I head anythink No.

regards.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 21, 2006)

Archangel said:


> Well look at you, TigerHawk, being an expert on my life. Never heard of Wicca, i assume? While we're exchanging views, i have little patience for people who seem to think they know more than they do, but i won't go out and actually *write* that you fall into that category, because i don't *know*. As for the other statement, how subtle and inoffensive is it to ask if anyone believes something that obviously doesn't exist? I don't go around saying that twenty-year-olds should think before they write and then ask if there are any twenty-year-olds around.


Whoa... :duck:

1. Yes, I have heard of Wicca. I have also heard of Wiki, which enabled me to look up Wicca. It seems that it includes "spells, herbalism, divination and other forms of magic". Pardon me for being skeptical (i.e. rational).

2. "As for the other statement," it wasn't mine. I just said that WP was trying to be subtle and inoffensive, but apparently he/she failed.

3. It looks like I'm being taken for a witch, because I'm being flamed! 

4. You have implicitly stated that I "think _ know more than  do," am too young to have a brain, and that I should "think before  write." I never intended to offend you, but you have thoroughly insulted me for honestly voicing my opinion on the current topic. Thanks to you, I just had my first unpleasant experience on CPF. I'm quite disappointed. 

I think I'll go crimp some security cables now. :candle:_


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## lightrod (Aug 21, 2006)

I'm a skeptic through and through, although willing to entertain about anything if there's a way to objectively test it. If there is no way (or if one is unwilling) to put a claim up on the chopping block and expose it to attempts to disprove it, it is not a subject for debate or science. It's a personal belief. 

I "believe" mostly in the remarkable working of our own grey stuff, and would need go no further than that - especially given our limited knowledge of the brain - to explain any just about any weird experience, including some I have had myself. Our capacity to create explanations for unexplained things is unlimited.

Beyond that I don't know what to believe. I often think there is something "out there", but I also believe it's way beyond my ability, or the ability of our species, to understand.


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 21, 2006)

Zigzago said:


> A new use for flashlights! Who ya gonna call?



Don't cross the streams...


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 21, 2006)

PhotonWrangler said:


> Don't cross the streams...


If we did, would it look like a thousand unbalanced CR123A cells unleashead at once?


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## Coop (Aug 21, 2006)

I became a believer....

I used to work at a small company. After a bad economic period, the boss decided to move the office to his home to save the rent money. He lives in an old farmhouse, and the office was set up in a very nicely converted stable. The office space was made up out of a large rectangular space, with another smaller rectangular room in it. So it was a smaller rectangular room and an L-shaped space. The short leg of the L was used for toilet and kitchen, and the long leg of the L was general office space. The rectangular room was used for courses and training for our customers. There were 2 connecing doors between the spaces, 1 in the short leg, giving direct access to the kitchen, and one in the long leg, for easy access to the office and the door to the outside. My desk was in the long leg, facing away from the connecting door. 
One time on a friday afternoon, I was alone in the office, which was not unusual, as the company had only 1 employee (me) for a while, and the boss was often on the road visiting our customers. I suddenly felt a presence behind me, the feeling you have when someone is looking over your shoulder. I turned around, and saw a young woman standing there, next to the door to the other room. I just about had a heart attack. Before I could say anything, she had disappeared into thin air. 
I did get a good look at her, I estimate her to have been in her early 20s, she was wearing a long white dress, sort of like a simple weddingdress. She had dark hair, dark eyes, and quite a pretty face. It was nothing like what you see on tv like very pale and half rotten, no, she just looked like any other person you would see standing. She did have a sad look on her face, like she had been crying. I saw her long enough to remember all these details. I checked the entire office, but did not see her again. I dismissed it as my mind playing a trick on me... But I just couldn't let it go, I kept thinking about it all weekend. I decided to ask the boss' wife if she knew anything about the history of their farmhouse, she didn't know much about it, but she did admit that there were occasions that she had felt a similar sort of presence in the kitchen, but never saw anything.
I decided to do some research on the farmhouse and its history. And found out from church and community records that about 125 years before, when the farm was still used as a farm, there had been a tragedy. A farmer lived there with his wife and 2 daughters. The oldest daughter was supposed to get married, and on her weddingday, her husband to be had been killed by a gang of muggers. The girl was found dead the same day. 
I thought it was pretty strange, but got on with my life and didn't think about it much anymore. But after about 6 months later, our new secretary and me were sorting out the archive, Which was located above the office on a little loft. The wood floor was very old, and squeeked everytime we moved. As I'm not exactly a featherweight, it was only a matter of time before one of the floorboards cracked. I put one of the shelves of the racks we just cleared out over it and continued the work I was doing.
Another month later, a contractor came to fix the floor, he was stripping out the old boards, and found a leather bound book, hidden in the space under the floorboards.
My boss was pretty excited about this, as it wasn't an everyday find. He almost came running to show it to me. It was the diary of the youngest daughter of the farmer who had lived there long ago. It was full of very good drawings, and a lot of events that this girl witnessed. Including, you guessed it, the tale of her big sister, getting the bad news about her husband to be. She had been in the kitchen when she was told, standing in the spot where the boss' wife had felt the presence. It also said, that the girl had ran to the stable, to the loft, where she'd always go when she was sad. Never to return. She died in that place, it was said to be of a broken heart. The place where the diary was hidden, was right under the place where the dead girls body had been found. Weird... Right then, when I thought I couldn't be creeped out more, I turned a page, and there it was, a portrait of the older sister, the girl I had seen in a flash months before. 
I took the rest of the day off...

I wouldn't have believed it if someone else told me a story like this. I did look up the girls grave a few weeks after and brought some nice flowers. Never again I felt the presence or get a glimpse of the girl...


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 21, 2006)

:huh:
Pretty creepy story, MayCooper. I'm a complete nonbeliever of all this sort of thing - if it happened to me, I would be extremely freaked out. I would then immediately make an appointment with my psychiatrist to triple my medication!


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Aug 21, 2006)

Wow, MayCooper! I had chills up and down my spine just reading your story!

What explanation is there for something like that? This is definately VERY interesting!!!! I was thinking about the concept that was mentioned in an earlier post about "lensing" through time. I've read about this in theory but it applied only to 3-dimensional space (gravitational lensing). However, we all know that space and time are interconnected as dictated by Einstein's theory of relativity. Perhaps, somehow, there is a time-derivative of lensing or something similar that allows us to temporarily peek through different points in time.

Thanks so much for sharing, MayCooper!

:thumbsup: WP


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 21, 2006)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> If we did, would it look like a thousand unbalanced CR123A cells unleashead at once?



:lolsign: I always use protected cells in my proton pack. You never know when the Stay-Puft man is gonna show up!


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 21, 2006)

That was a fascinating story, MayCooper!

I do not doubt that you experienced what you experienced. Like WP, I'm interested in understanding this event better. Is there such a thing as temporal lensing? I don't know, but WP presents an interesting theory.

One of the things that gets me about those "ghost investigator" stories that always turn up around Halloween is that they always march in with near-IR CCD cameras and the AlphaLabs EMF meter. They wave that meter around, looking at electrostatic and electromagnetic fields and brethlessly declare that "something is there" when they see the needle deflect. The arrogance/silliness of this is that if there _are_ such things as ghosts, their presence would be detectable by whatever instruments we happen to be able to produce.


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## AlexGT (Aug 21, 2006)

I believe

The old house I used to live in 5 years ago was haunted, I never saw anything but I did hear things that weren't supposed to hear, like someone taking a shower or washing dishes or opening the door when no one was there. I once woke up to find my front door wide open and I had it closed the night before.

My sister OTOH she was miserable!!! I think the ghosts liked to pick on her, moved stuff around the room, when she slept she said someone pulled her arm or blow cold air in her ear. Several times she had to sleep with a friend because of all the noise in the bedroom.

My other sister saw a being standing thru her and the bed she was sleeping on, she was so scared she lost her voice for an hour.

While we were studying for a test at night with a few college friends one went outside to smoke and ran back in because there was a red eyed black dog in my back yard, I dont have a dog! and the backyard is not accessible from the outside by a 3 meter high wall! 

So, yes I do believe in ghosts, afterlife, etc.

AlexGT


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## Coop (Aug 21, 2006)

AlexGT said:


> My other sister saw a being standing thru her and the bed she was sleeping on, she was so scared she lost her voice for an hour.



Now thats just plain nasty... some spirits have a sick sense of humour for sure....



After my experience, I don't believe, I know there is something more. But I don't really feel a need to know HOW these 'spirit encounters' work. If they ever figure it out, all hell will break loose because some money minded idiot will mess with spirits in the wrong way... I think this is knowledge better left unknown. But on the other hand, I'd like to know more about the WHY part.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Aug 21, 2006)

AlexGT said:


> ....there was a red eyed black dog in my back yard, I dont have a dog! and the backyard is not accessible from the outside by a 3 meter high wall!


 

Ok....there goes my sleep for tonight.......  


WP


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## evanlocc (Aug 21, 2006)

Diesel_Bomber:
You seem done right to give Execuse and Thanks to ... on your encounter.

MayCooper:
What a great encounter of yours.

It seem you all show Respect to ... , as we all needed it too. Learned from encounter lesson.



It was much to tell on my side...

Just last night my eldest son was sort like distrubed while sleeping and give all kind of noise. I shout at him and notice something moving away from his direction it was 12.30AM when i checked the time. I wake and walk him to toilet. Switch on the room light a while. Then after a good sleep until morning.

It was really NOT nice to feel when someone move quickly toward you from behind and it wasnt any, in an impossible enviroment. eg.bath room.

My remarkable encounter was when i was still in my secondary school time, i and a few friends all guys went to a rest house where we can enjoy the mountain stream. At there we make all kind of noise, loud music, fire cracker... the next day a friend was fall sick with out reason and went back home. Then we found some dollar bill missing, we all check our pocket/pack/check every where possible... OK that fine! Then one of my friend complain who do the fun and move all the can food from kitchen cabinate on to the floor. 
We continue our stay, when the night getting late, after midnight suddenly the music stop and our 'DJ' stay still and do nothing. We asked him on the music and after a while he then stand up and ask for a companion to accompany him to do the music. There on he keep quiet for the night. We all sit outside the house at the car park in front the house to enjoy the fresh air do chating until dawn we then went to sleep. 

It was after we are on the way back. The 'DJ' claimed that he notice a face watching him from the stair case when the music suddenly stop. One other also claim that when he get water from the stream about some 30meters away from the house suddenly the flashlight went off when he feel someone tap on his shoulder(i was in front of him at the moment, it was not just dark; it was pitch black under the tall tree without light.) . When i asked would anyone felt that the house was filled with people the night when we are sitting outside. And the answer shocked me, all give the same feeling that full of people moving inside the house like a packed bus. On and off i did feel someone was standing near to the door and listen to our conversation. It was a 'guys' with just wearing a short paint. (Lucky, i was not think much about it at the moment.) Also confirmed that no one touch the can food.

That was my first trip and the last trip to that rest house.

Now i think we did not show Respect to the peace of the area. 
(Just like a new neighbour move in to your next door and play loud music every night!) I think you would not just be angry...

That the Distrub to the others and give attention too. Thay why it was full housed!

Oh! ya, in that rest house we also discovered a usual lizard but in unusual size. About 2.5 feet long with a size of 4.2V rounded bulb eyes and give off exact like a little dog bark!

Sometime its really don need to see to believe. 
Show Respect and our world be in peace.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Aug 22, 2006)

Maycooper-

That's pretty much how I feel too. Knowing why would clear up a few things for me too.

Evanlocc-

I think you've got exactly the right idea with regards to respect, both given and recieved. When I feel a spirit in the bedroom, I politely ask it to leave. So far it always has.


Spirits are not just interesting things to tell stories about. They are people. Thinking beings, on some level. Like normal people that we're used to interracting with every day, there are good and bad spirits. With either good or bad, respect for respect goes a long way.


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## senecaripple (Aug 22, 2006)

maycooper that is some scary story, when you visited her grave, was the date visible, when was her dob, and the date of her death?


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 22, 2006)

This saddens me. What happened to science - is it out of fashion?





Oh well.


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## Lit Up (Aug 22, 2006)

Delvance said:


> Eeehh the link doesn't work...it takes me to uhm...wannabe naughty ? sites and tries to download crap on my comp.



:huh2:
Might wanna have that checked out. Takes me to Yousendit.com (file upload place) with the vid for download. 
I know, I uploaded that myself.


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## Lit Up (Aug 22, 2006)

WAVE_PARTICLE said:


> Wow, MayCooper! I had chills up and down my spine just reading your story!
> 
> What explanation is there for something like that? This is definately VERY interesting!!!! I was thinking about the concept that was mentioned in an earlier post about "lensing" through time. I've read about this in theory but it applied only to 3-dimensional space (gravitational lensing). However, we all know that space and time are interconnected as dictated by Einstein's theory of relativity. Perhaps, somehow, there is a time-derivative of lensing or something similar that allows us to temporarily peek through different points in time.
> 
> ...



Hey Wave Particle,

There's another theory that goes around that if something traumatic or something that involves alot of energy takes place, it leaves an imprint.

Similar to how a VHS tape works with magnetism. The scene plays over and over. I read of one haunting that they thought was similar to this.

There was a lamp that hung off a wall with a shade on it. Every now and then this "shadow" would appear and jerk and shake violently. It was extended down from the lamp shade. They found out later some guy had hung himself from it. So it's not really a haunting, persay, just an event replaying itself.

Who knows.


On another note: Did you guys know that George Lutz (Of Amtiyville fame) died a couple months ago? Heart failure.

I spent some time over at the forums there picking apart things and just seeing what added up and what didn't. I actually got to speak with Christopher Lutz (he was one of the young boys who lived there during the "28 days") in chat. He and George didn't get along too well.

Anyways, Chris and George both said that the movie and the book was completely "Hollywoodized." The whole "saga" is way too much to discuss here. It's just something you'll have to do your own research in. However, the current owner, Bryan Wilson, says there's no troubles at all in the house whatsoever. And he grows really tired of all the onlookers.

One interesting tidbit I did find over there was this:

If you're familiar with Ed and Lorraine Warren (They're always on ghost shows, etc.), George had them come over after they moved out and do whatever it is they do, check out the house, whatnot.
Because George had every intention of moving back in. He just wanted his house "fixed."

Anyway, the Warrens had a guy set up a camera on the first landing and shoot periodic shots throughout the night with infared film. They had rolls of stuff with nothing on it, just photos of the landing.

So, a couple years go by and a secretary of George's was going through some of the shots from that night when she happend upon this photo that had been overlooked.







She brought this photo to George's attention. George in turn showed this to his step-daughter, Missy.

Missy's response to George was: "That's the little boy who used to come play with me." 

Or as we know him from the movie, to be called, "Jodie."

George said he had some other odd photos and was gonna release a picture book, but he's dead now. And I think the whole legend went with him.

Christopher was sick of going through life being referred to as "That kid from Amityville." So I don't see him running with it.


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## chesterqw (Aug 22, 2006)

you should ask my chinese teacher.
she is incharge of the scouts in my school with another male teacher.

so one day, like one of those camping trips.

they has to walk in a single line to make sure no one gets lost in the place(i forgot where it was )

she is at the back while the male is at the front of the line.
so they were all singing the "as we walk to the left, as we walk to the right, as we walk, as we walk... you know it don't you?
then at the last line of that song, a voice behind her sang it" and a new friend found"
and tap on her shoulder!! 

nonhuman, as she was the last in the line remember?

she say she has what we call "ying yang eye".

scary stuff huh?


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## senecaripple (Aug 22, 2006)

love these stories, they never get old. 
i heard a repeat interview of george lutz a couple of month ago, about the same time he died. art bell repeat.
got to watch amityville horror again to refresh my memory! 
i thought the movie sucked when i first saw it.


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## WNG (Aug 22, 2006)

In general I'm a skeptic of paranormal activities.
But I did experience an incident that has been an unexplained mystery to this day. And it was not an isolated incident only witnessed by me, but by several others in attendence.

Something was physically rubbing against a group of us guys one afternoon over at a friend's apartment. While watching TV and later eating lunch in another room, I felt what I thought was a cat rubbing against my calf. Having been a cat owner, I recognized the sensation of this cat behavior. I tried reaching down to pet it, but could not find the cat. 
Later I turn to ask my friend what was her cat's name, and she replied that she has no cat. Then I told her I kept feeling a cat at my leg, and she looked at me strange, and the other girls laughed.
But then 2 other guys in the room simultaneously claimed they also felt the same thing through the course of the afternoon. And also didn't spot anything when they immediately looked down at their legs. 
This creeped us out, but the friend whom lives there avoided further conversation on the matter. She lived in a very rough part of town, in an apartment complex, with a high incidence of violent crimes. 
To this day, we don't know what happened. No scientific explanation. 
Perhaps a wayward spirit from one such crime?
I like to think it was a cat that used up its 9 lives and sensed an animal lover.


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## cerbie (Aug 22, 2006)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> This saddens me. What happened to science - is it out of fashion?


No. Science is fine. Why do you for some reason think science has anything to do with this thread?


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 22, 2006)

What I see in this thread are a lot of honest observations made from the heart. Whether they meet anyone's scientific criteria is irrelevant and in no way diminishes the validity of their own experiences. I can't say that I've walked in anyone else's shows here, so who am I to judge what they saw or didn't see?


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 22, 2006)

cerbie said:


> No. Science is fine. Why do you for some reason think science has anything to do with this thread?


Oh... oh yeah.


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## Archangel (Aug 22, 2006)

(smirk) Maybe the next time you eject yourself from a thread, Tigerhawk, you could put a little more effort into it.


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## greenLED (Aug 22, 2006)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> This saddens me. What happened to science - is it out of fashion?


Science is not out of fashion, TigerHawk, but it seems that your respect for others' opinions is.  A person can be deeply commited to science (it's my line of work, after all) and still respect what others believe. I invite you to quit trolling this thread, whether you agree with its contents or not.


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## Lee1959 (Aug 22, 2006)

Science, is full of unprovens, they are called theories, and until they are proven or disproven they are no more or less valid than para-normal activities may be. In fact, some reputable scientists study such things, does that make them less of a scientist?

So no, science is not out of fashion, nor does it validate your position or rude dismissal of others beliefs. It must indeed be nice to know with such surety the answers to mysteries that have baffled so many others.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 23, 2006)

Not trying to troll, not trying to insult, just trying to clearly express my opinion.

I never thought CPFers would gang up on me to flame me so thoroughly... :sigh: 

P.S.: Science has hypotheses and theories. A hypothesis is "upgraded" to a theory once it has been verified. Examples include Einstein's "Theory" of General Relativity. Nothing in science can be PROVEN. Proofs are left to the mathematicians.


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## LowBat (Aug 23, 2006)

Got this in an email, for anyone interested in finding nearby haunts.

Subject: Is your town haunted?

JUST CLICK ON YOUR STATE!!!

( links below)


http://theshadowlands.net/places/alabama.htm Alabama
http://theshadowlands.net/places/louisiana.htm Louisiana
http://theshadowlands.net/places/ohio.htm Ohio
http://theshadowlands.net/places/alaska.htm Alaska
http://theshadowlands.net/places/maine.htm Maine
http://theshadowlands.net/places/oklahoma.htm Oklahoma
http://theshadowlands.net/places/arizona.htm Arizona
http://theshadowlands.net/places/maryland.htm Maryland
http://theshadowlands.net/places/oregon.htm Oregon
http://theshadowlands.net/places/arkansas.htm Arkansas
http://theshadowlands.net/places/massachusetts.htm Massachusetts
http://theshadowlands.net/places/pennsylvania.htm Pennsylvania
http://theshadowlands.net/places/california.htm California
http://theshadowlands.net/places/michigan.htm Michigan
http://theshadowlands.net/places/rhodeisland.htm Rhode Island
http://theshadowlands.net/places/colorado.htm Colorado
http://theshadowlands.net/places/minnesota.htm Minnesota
http://theshadowlands.net/places/southcarolina.htm South Carolina
http://theshadowlands.net/places/connecticut.htm Connecticut
http://theshadowlands.net/places/mississippi.htm Mississippi
http://theshadowlands.net/places/southdakota.htm South Dakota
http://theshadowlands.net/places/delaware.htm Delaware
http://theshadowlands.net/places/missouri.htm Missouri
http://theshadowlands.net/places/tennessee.htm Tennessee
http://theshadowlands.net/places/florida.htm Florida
http://theshadowlands.net/places/montana.htm Montana
http://theshadowlands.net/places/texas.htm Texas
http://theshadowlands.net/places/georgia.htm Georgia
http://theshadowlands.net/places/nebraska.htm Nebraska
http://theshadowlands.net/places/utah.htm Utah
http://theshadowlands.net/places/hawaii.htm Hawaii
http://theshadowlands.net/places/nevada.htm Nevada
http://theshadowlands.net/places/vermont.htm Vermont
http://theshadowlands.net/places/idaho.htm Idaho
http://theshadowlands.net/places/newhampshire.htm New Hampshire
http://theshadowlands.net/places/virginia.htm Virginia
http://theshadowlands.net/places/illinois.htm Illinois
http://theshadowlands.net/places/newjersey.htm New Jersey
http://theshadowlands.net/places/washington.htm Washington
http://theshadowlands.net/places/indiana.htm Indiana
http://theshadowlands.net/places/newmexico.htm New Mexico
http://theshadowlands.net/places/westvirginia.htm West Virginia
http://theshadowlands.net/places/iowa.htm Iowa
http://theshadowlands.net/places/newyork.htm New York
http://theshadowlands.net/places/wisconsin.htm Wisconsin
http://theshadowlandsnet/places/kansas.htm Kansas
http://theshadowlands.net/places/northcarolina.htm North Carolina
http://theshadowlands.net/places/wyoming.htm Wyoming
http://theshadowlands.net/places/kentucky.htm Kentucky
http://theshadowlands.net/places/northdakota.htm North Dakota
http://theshadowlands.net/places/dc.htm District of Columbia


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## Empath (Aug 23, 2006)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> I never thought CPFers would gang up on me to flame me so thoroughly... :sigh:


That makes twice you've accussed the other participants of this thread of "flaming" you.

We permit a reasonable amount of self moderation by members in a thread. Defensive comments regarding your activity in the thread has been respectful, and have demonstrated helpful suggestions.

Nearly any thread regarding unusual phenomena, or what is called the paranormal, will have it's share of both skeptics and those that for one reason or another have established an opinion contrary to skeptics. In some environments the discussion can become quite heated, or even reach the level of ridicule and insults. We want to avoid that.

Let's analyze your activity.

Here you put down other member's religious beliefs, and place their topics of religious teachings on the same level as a fictional Star Wars character, in a manner that belittles them for believing.


TigerhawkT3 said:


> I'm disappointed in the current poll results - only 55%, including myself, have said "No." Do you guys believe in witches, prophets, and Jabba the Hutt as well?



Here you indicate, following a member's story, it's reason for seeking psychiatiric treatment.


TigerhawkT3 said:


> I'm a complete nonbeliever of all this sort of thing - if it happened to me, I would be extremely freaked out. I would then immediately make an appointment with my psychiatrist to triple my medication!




Here, you again express your frustrations with the fact that others have expressed opinions that counter your own conclusions, and then you follow it with a graphical image demonstrating your intent to leave the thread. In spite of that, you remain active, and respond to reasonable comment regarding your hostile behavior by again accusing the other participants of flaming.


TigerhawkT3 said:


> This saddens me. What happened to science - is it out of fashion?



If they were indeed flaming and baiting, the mods and admins would respond to their actions; which is mostly why I'm responding to yours.

It would be best to calm it down; either that or follow through with your threat to eject yourself from the thread.


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## senecaripple (Aug 23, 2006)

great links lowBat! my alma mater is haunted, and i had some classes there. no night class though!
should organize a ghost hunt!


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## Diesel_Bomber (Aug 23, 2006)

Update.

Because of this thread, I've invited a neighbor over for tea on Thursday. She's nearly 80 and grew up in this house. She and her sister shared a bedroom, which is now my den. The room I'm typing this in right now. I'll ask a couple questions and see what comes of it, but no promises.

Tigerhawk-

Edit: Nevermind. Empath posted while I was typing this and, as usual, he is more articulate and polite than I. Re-reading my comments, they could possibly have been construed as baiting or insulting, neither of which was my inent. Removed before they could be removed for me.


Cheers, all. :buddies:


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## livetofall (Aug 23, 2006)

wow May, Diesel and the others, I really wish I had a voice reader of the stories with Jack Palances voice..would even the more intensify it! 
I have had my experiences. As far as ghosts, ther is a place in troudale oregon (outside portland) , I think it may be demolished now, that was condemned, boarded up, and NOONE could get access in. One time driving by inotice on the fourth or fifth story that there was a like a candle light in the window hole (yes up high it wasnt boarded) I got a chill. Came to find out it used to be a sanitarium.

As far as other beings I had an experience (and no I wasn't on drugs) in my sleep. Does anybody remember that Eddie murphy movie Golden Child? This happened before the movie so makes this even creepier. Remember when the devil guy burst into flame and there was this skelatal demon with wings???

I was in sleep , darkness, that very thing starting as a pinhead in size flys down and grabbed my chest,violently shaking me, its claws piercing into me as I was helpless. I shouted in my head "Lord Jesus help me" or something to awake to my arms pinned to the bed, bed still have remnance of a shake. I got my breath back, heart pounding like a hummingbird, and got up and went to the bathroom. What did i see? Claw marks on my chest! Sorry non- believers, but the angle of the marks would be impossible to do myself. Of course like some are thinking, my parents thought i was hitting the wacky tobacky again or telling a tall tale,but i know what I saw and felt. Damn, now I got to go to another forum and stay awake for another couple hours. I might be almost 40 but that memoriy is one i try not to recall.


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## Lit Up (Aug 23, 2006)

senecaripple said:


> great links lowBat! my alma mater is haunted, and i had some classes there. no night class though!
> should organize a ghost hunt!



And if you don't find a ghost, who cares. You get to play with your lights!


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## LowBat (Aug 23, 2006)

senecaripple said:


> great links lowBat! my alma mater is haunted, and i had some classes there. no night class though!
> should organize a ghost hunt!


You're welcome senecaripple. A ghost hunt might be interesting. I've never specifically gone looking for ghosts nor do I believe in them, but it does lend a bit of adventure when hiking at night if there have been reports of strange happenings in the area.

I do organize hikes (both day and night) and I’m trying to put one together the week before Halloween at some place fitting. You can find that thread here.


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## livetofall (Aug 23, 2006)

OK guys one more story after read throughly. How about the positive? Hope this isnt off topic.

I am a union pipe insulator. I work on oil refineries, powerhouses, papermills, nuclear powerplants, and other ugly places that are dangerous. When I was a helper/apprentice I was carryng batts of inslation 40ft up on scaffold. Thes batts are 24" x 48" and approx 20" stacked with cardboard surrounding the height and shrinkwrapped, approx 60lbs. Was a windy day and on the higher scaffolds the plastic and cardboard would blow off. A moron pipefitter decided not to red barrier tape the hole he made in scaffold. Just by chance, a piece of the cardboard had floated over this hole, large enough for a man to fall through. Before I continue..remember sceptics,physics.. once something is in motion it continues in motion. Carrying this 60lb bundle on my shoulder i walked onto this very thin cardboard and my foot went through but i jerked it back upand got it onto the other side. heart rush..continue on. But wait... howcould I possible pick my foot up off of nothing when my weight was allready forward??? Sorry but the cardboard was not stiff. YOu can believe how pissed i was about no red tape. i should of fell 40ft onto concrete. One of the journeymen saw it and told me it looked like my foot was lifted up and put onto the safe side. There is absolutely no physical explanation other than an angel. Please MR skeptics tell me about the adrenal gland, but it wont get past the physical truth of kinetic motion.

I would like to see more of the athiest, pure science,people put into more dangerous situations. Truth is most of them are in fear, so they knock down other peoples belief. The toughest guys on this planet are in construction, and have some sense of something else out there and watching over them. I could tell story after story, but this one cannot be proofed out. It was "scientifically " impossible.
Keep up the good work and lets here some more stories!


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## LowBat (Aug 23, 2006)

Lit Up said:


> And if you don't find a ghost, who cares. You get to play with your lights!


Exactly! No shelf queens here.


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## chesterqw (Aug 23, 2006)

wow... i think ghosts can dmage a science thing straight away. given the myth of them giving the magnetic field and giving out EMP waves.


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## LowBat (Aug 23, 2006)

livetofall said:


> Keep up the good work and lets here some more stories!


I wish I had something that interesting to add. The only really bizarre thing that ever happened to me was when I was about 10, and it’s not a ghost story. I was lying in bed and noticed a spider on the ceiling on the other side of my bedroom (about 15' away). I got up to use the bathroom, and when I was gone I suddenly got this strange idea that the spider was floating in my glass of water at my bedside. When I returned to my bedroom (gone for maybe 2 minutes) I noticed the spider was no longer on the ceiling and I didn't see it anywhere. I walked across the room to my bed, and before I got back in, I looked into my water glass. I couldn't believe it; the spider was now floating in the water just like I imagined.:thinking: It somehow ran across the ceiling and dropped from the ceiling just right to land in my glass, and I somehow sensed this when I was in the bathroom. :shrug:


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## livetofall (Aug 23, 2006)

sounds like you were a minute too late on a cry for help:laughing: No really maybe ESP?

I saw you used humor earlier and thats fun, but when some others knock others beliefs or non-beliefs not cool. Its nice to see humor to lighten stuff up. I got a kind of warnig earlier on a a thread labeled your biggest catch. being afisherman, with no pics, i decide to be a joker and posted a pic of a fat broad trying to get her pants all the way zipped, no nudity. One guy got offended saying he didnt see the humor in it. Point is, I wasnt cutting down someone talking about fishing, the title just begged for a joke

Needless to say it was erased after the mod got a report. He erased allthe other crud the guy was putting in his herotrip out too


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## Lit Up (Aug 23, 2006)

senecaripple said:


> got to watch amityville horror again to refresh my memory!
> i thought the movie sucked when i first saw it.



Haha 
well just keep in mind that you have to remove several "facts" from the movie.

1. George said he and Kathy were in the house when the priest came over to bless it. He said the priest came down and asked about one of the rooms. (It was the one that became the sewing room with all the flies) George told him it was going to be the sewing room. The priest said that was fine as long as they don't use it as a bedroom. He made some hint towards a feeling about the room but didn't elaborate and went on his way.

2. There was never any blood pouring from the walls. George said Hollywood completely made that up. He said sometimes there was this gelatanous substance he would find in the keyholes.

3. The "Red Room" was nothing more than a small storage space behind the staircasing. All that George said in regards to that is you would sometimes feel a cold spot there and that Harry the dog wouldn't go near it.
Said there was another cold spot in the middle of the first staircase that was pretty consistent and another one by the boat dock.

4. They didn't flee in the early morning during a downpour. George said he and Kathy decided to leave after the kids got home from school around 4 PM.

5. George didn't obssessively chop fire wood. Infact, he said he never chopped any firewood at all. Just a Hollywood stretch of how the house always seemed a bit cold.

The summary of the current players is:
Kathy and George are now both dead.
Chris filled me in on the rest of everybody.
His brother, Danny, still lives in NY and runs a restaurant. He and Danny once visited the house again and pissed on the lawn (haha)

Chris lives in Arizona and was taking care of his mother, Kathy, up til her death.

His real father lives about 20 mins away and Chris has taken back his real father's name: Quarantino.
He said his sister, Missy, lives in the area too.

Missy and Danny have never been vocal about any of this, however, Missy was once asked if maybe Jodie was possibly just a cat. She laughed at the notion.

Chris said the only thing he witnessed was that one night a "large and menacing shadow/figure" was in the upstairs part where he and Danny slept.
Ron Jr and Dawn DeFeo's old rooms. Also one of the quarter moon windows was opening and slamming by itself.

He didn't blame the haunting on the DeFeo killings, instead, he blamed George. He said George was reading alot of books on Black Magic at the time and delving in alot of it.
George denied that and said he was into TM. (Transcedental meditation)

Chris ended up moving out when he was 16 because he and George just didn't get along. Chris went to Vegas once where George lived and scratched "Liar" into the trunk of his Cadillac.

The black magic comment was kind of funny since I remember reading a section of the Motley Crue book _- The Dirt.

_When they were starting out as a band, Nikki Sixx was dating Lita Ford at the time and he was getting into alot of black magic books. One day, one of the record producers comes over to the apartment and sees them both sitting there on the couch acting out of character. 
Lita was shaken up and told the producer that weird things have been happening and stuff has been moving around by itself. The producer is sitting there thinking, great, they're on drugs. He said at that point a knife that was sitting on the kitchen table just takes off and sticks in the ceiling. He said he never would've believed it had he not saw it for himself. Nikki threw the books out soon after.


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## Lit Up (Aug 23, 2006)

LowBat said:


> I wish I had something that interesting to add. The only really bizarre thing that ever happened to me was when I was about 10, and it’s not a ghost story. I was lying in bed and noticed a spider on the ceiling on the other side of my bedroom (about 15' away). I got up to use the bathroom, and when I was gone I suddenly got this strange idea that the spider was floating in my glass of water at my bedside. When I returned to my bedroom (gone for maybe 2 minutes) I noticed the spider was no longer on the ceiling and I didn't see it anywhere. I walked across the room to my bed, and before I got back in, I looked into my water glass. I couldn't believe it; the spider was now floating in the water just like I imagined.:thinking: It somehow ran across the ceiling and dropped from the ceiling just right to land in my glass, and I somehow sensed this when I was in the bathroom. :shrug:



That kind of stuff has happened to me quite often. It's like they say people can see well into the future etc. never been my case. It's always something you pick up on that's gonna happen real soon. Too soon to change any kind of outcome.


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## Lit Up (Aug 23, 2006)

LowBat said:


> Exactly! No shelf queens here.



I think most guys here wouldn't even mind going shoe shopping with their wives as long as the store turns off all the lights. :lolsign:


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## LowBat (Aug 23, 2006)

I have seen this group before last year and now I see they are starting a class. I might just attend for the fun of it.

http://www.ghost-trackers.org/calendar.htm

*- September 2, 2006 - The Ghost Trackers director, Gloria Young, will be holding the first in the series of ghost hunting classes. This class will be covering "Ghost Hunting 101". Reservations are required. All information regarding class will be sent with confirmation email following registration, however, the class will be held in Santa Clara. The cost is $10.00 for the class and covers admission and class materials. The dates and times for the following two classes in the series will be detailed at the class. The classes are a pre-requisite to membership with the Ghost Trackers Paranormal Research Group OR can be taken alone. You can sign up here: 
http://www.ghost-trackers.org/membership.htm*


This is where we had the Flashapalooza and BBQ in June. I might have to check this out too.

*- October 13 and 14th, 2006 - Joseph D. Grant Ranch House Tours. If you have not experienced the energy and amazing events that occur in this house, now is your chance. The Park Rangers at the Joseph D. Grant County Park have again asked us to help in the house tours. The experiences people have had walking through this house as well as to the Ghost Trackers and rangers are awesome and need to be experienced. You must contact Lisa, the Park Ranger at the information below to make reservations for this tour. Each tour is approximately 1-2 hours and is free to the public. Bring your best flashlight!! 
DATES: October 13 - 8pm-12am and October 14 - 7pm-11pm 

PLACE: Joseph D. Grant County Park 18405 Mt. Hamilton Rd.

San Jose, CA 

PHONE: (408) 274-6121*


I love the part about "Bring your best flashlight!!". That challenge alone should yield some CPF folks.


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## Nyctophiliac (Aug 23, 2006)

Lowbat - I too would think ghost hunting and flashaholism go hand in shakey hand!

Ok, I'm a sceptic when it comes to believing in religion and deities in particular. I'm also a sceptic on whether we go on after death to some other 'plane of existence'. But having done sciences almost exclusively at formal education I guess that's only natural. The truth is the universe is big enough and misunderstood enough for almost anything we can imagine to be true, will be true. There may be ghosts, gods and devils. There may be aliens landing in Dakota and frightening the sheep. I enjoy the quest.

That said, I do live in a haunted house. I have heard things and seen things I cannot explain (moving shadows, lights coming on, footsteps, people who aren't there etc - oh and you have to experience a cold spot before you realize how inadequate air conditioning is!). I just don't have the temerity to assume I know what causes any of these.

I'd love to go on a ghost hunt though.

Any CPFers involved in the paranormal in the UK??





Be lucky...


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Aug 23, 2006)

Hey LowBat!

Interesting story. I remember watching a show of this on television in which they try to scientifically disprove the paranormal, myths and legends. They discussed this very phenomonem.....clairvoyence/ESP? Anyways, the show ended up NOT being able to disprove it as there was compelling evidence from their experiments that cannot be ignored.

....so Lowbat, if you ever see anything that resembles a set of lottery numbers, you know who to PM....  

WP


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## senecaripple (Aug 23, 2006)

LowBat said:


> You're welcome senecaripple. A ghost hunt might be interesting. I've never specifically gone looking for ghosts nor do I believe in them, but it does lend a bit of adventure when hiking at night if there have been reports of strange happenings in the area.
> 
> I do organize hikes (both day and night) and I’m trying to put one together the week before Halloween at some place fitting. You can find that thread here.




i would've definately join the night hike with you, unfortunately, i'm on the other end of the coast, any such hikes in ny metro area?


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## senecaripple (Aug 23, 2006)

lit up, you seem to know alot about the lutz's. i only saw the movie once, and that was when it first came out thirty years ago, and i hated the actress, the drunk and homeless has been found in someones back yard a couple of years ago. i found her really corney and phoney in those superman movies, that's probably why i was put off by the movie.

i have a question about the Defeo's, i believe they were the previous owners of the house. did they own a car dealership, (cadillac in yonkers, ny)?

i heard a repeat of the interview of george lutz recently, guess about the time he died from coasttocoastam. did he die this year?
i recently purchased amityville horror and silent hill. nobody but me wants to watch this! so' i'll be watching this myself, in daylight, of course!


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 23, 2006)

I know I've said this several times before, but I NEVER meant to offend ANYONE at ANY time with ANYTHING I've said.

What's really odd to me is that so few of the "No" voters have posted, and no one has really agreed with me on anything I've said. I mean, even statistically, at least a few people should been on my "side."

And, about ejecting from this thread, notice that I'm only here to defend myself now. Are you trying to tell me to actually leave, or that you're planning on banning me or something? I sure hope not.


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## C4LED (Aug 23, 2006)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> No.
> 
> I'm disappointed in the current poll results - only 55%, including myself, have said "No." Do you guys believe in witches, prophets, and Jabba the Hutt as well?



Only Jabba the Hutt! :laughing:


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## ericg533 (Aug 23, 2006)

I am an atheist and I do not believe in any type of spirit or supernatual being.

For me... no evidence = no belief.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Aug 23, 2006)

Tigerhawk-

The problem isn't that you don't believe. No one minds that, no biggy at all. 

The problem is that you insult the rest of us because we do believe. Very rude, as well as downright absurd.


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## ericg533 (Aug 23, 2006)

Diesel_Bomber said:


> The problem isn't that you don't believe. No one minds that, no biggy at all.
> 
> The problem is that you insult the rest of us because we do believe. Very rude, as well as downright absurd.



No, the problem is that you're too sensitive. What one may constitute as "evidence" may be meaningless for someone else. I didn't insult anyone so please do not accuse me.


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## Archangel (Aug 23, 2006)

eric- Diesel_Bomber's post was in regards to Tigerhawk's post, not yours.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Aug 23, 2006)

Archangel said:


> eric- Diesel_Bomber's post was in regards to Tigerhawk's post, not yours.



Indeed. Many apologies, Eric. I'll edit my previous post.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 23, 2006)

Once again:

I never intended to insult anyone or anything about anything. Period.


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## Coop (Aug 23, 2006)

I don't think this is actually something to believe in... 

Belief is just a matter of opinion. But then again, so is science... Let's say there is an oak tree growing in a yard. A normal healthy oaktree, in early summer. It has green leaves, that's a scientific fact right? Wrong! We say the leaves are green, but why? Because someone said, leaves are green. Leaves are a certain color, and we call that green. But now someone comes along who was raised completely cut off from the outside world. And his parents told him that leaves aren't green, but purple. If that person says that the leaves are purple, the rest of the world will say that person is out of his mind. But, that person truly believes that oaktree leaves are purple. Therefore it is true to him. 
Ofcourse, this is a pretty farfetched example, but it's the same system as with eye-witnesses. Everybody has a different perception of things, 2 people witnessing the same event can have completely different beliefs of what they saw. The truth is, as usual, probably somewhere in the middle. 
The same goes for 'supernatural' events, everyone has a different perception of an event, and everyone will try to rationalize what they have seen/felt/whatever, that's just human nature. Some people will look to science, some to faith and others to something else. 
But saying that something doesn't exist because there is no proof is just plain stupid. Because if you think about it, nothing can be proven. In the end, all scientific proof comes down to math, and math was thought up by humans, humans make mistakes and what if the founders of mathematical principles got it wrong in the first place? Things are like they are because some guy said it's like that, and some others BELIEVED him...


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## ericg533 (Aug 23, 2006)

MayCooper said:


> I don't think this is actually something to believe in...
> 
> Belief is just a matter of opinion. But then again, so is science... Let's say there is an oak tree growing in a yard. A normal healthy oaktree, in early summer. It has green leaves, that's a scientific fact right? Wrong! We say the leaves are green, but why? Because someone said, leaves are green. Leaves are a certain color, and we call that green. But now someone comes along who was raised completely cut off from the outside world. And his parents told him that leaves aren't green, but purple. If that person says that the leaves are purple, the rest of the world will say that person is out of his mind. But, that person truly believes that oaktree leaves are purple. Therefore it is true to him.
> Ofcourse, this is a pretty farfetched example, but it's the same system as with eye-witnesses. Everybody has a different perception of things, 2 people witnessing the same event can have completely different beliefs of what they saw. The truth is, as usual, probably somewhere in the middle.
> ...



Your first example explains differing linguistics between cultures, but it doesn't relate to this topic. Healthy leaves always radiate a color around 500nm (green). You can call it what you want but its still going to be 500nm.

Also, your statement that things can't be proved is, well, wrong. For example, my name is Eric. It's on my bith certificate and its on my driver's license. It's proved. Also, 1+1=2. 

It's also completely legitimate for one to say that they do not believe in something... and not, as you say, "stupid".


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## metalhed (Aug 23, 2006)

TigerhawkT3 -- I understand where you are coming from. I also understand where we are.

From a 2004 Gallup Poll:

92 percent of Americans say they believe in God
85 percent believe in heaven
82 percent believe in miracles
71 percent believe in the devil
34 percent believe in ghosts
34 percent believe in UFO's
29 percent believe in astrology
25 percent believe in reincarnation
24 percent believe in witches

I guess the 'religion' of science just isn't as popular as you and I wish it were. Fact is (that's ironic), most folks are quite content with their 'beliefs', and get a bit testy when challenged over them. No matter...science will win. Give it time.



One other thing though. If folks are going to be upset that non-believers sometimes come on too strong and seem too critical of personal belief, and we non-believers need to take this into account when discussing these issues, then the knife has to cut both ways:



> livetofall said:
> 
> I would like to see more of the athiest, pure science,people put into more dangerous situations. Truth is most of them are in fear, so they knock down other peoples belief



Please don't diminish my beliefs by suggesting I live in fear and seek to bring others down because of it. That's unneccesary.


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## Dandrop (Aug 23, 2006)

This is a very interesting thread. I am a science kind of guy and i tend not to believe in unexplained occurences. However there was one incident that happened to me that still creeps me out.

I went back to my hometown overseas about 4 years ago. After a 14 hour flight, i was pretty tired and went to my room sleep. I fell asleep on my lazy boy and after falling into a deep sleep, i felt a violent shaking on my chest. It was as if someone had his hands on my chest and shaking me to wake me up. I opened my eyes and i did not see anything. I was thinking, wtf was that about? I went back to sleep after half hour and after falling asleep, i felt the same shaking, this time on my shoulder.

I said aloud, please let me rest, this is my room. I didn't feel anymore shaking. After a few hours, i went downstairs and talked to my parents about it. They said that the maids do hear footsteps when no one is at home and they hear chairs moving about in a vacant room upstairs and they also hear office chairs (one with wheels) rolling on the wood floor.

Wierd stuff. It happens, i just could find an explanation.


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## Lee1959 (Aug 23, 2006)

> This is a very interesting thread. I am a science kind of guy and i tend not to believe in unexplained occurences


 
I too am a science kind of guy, but I wonder why people tend to think that science does not deal in the unexplained? Without the unexplained, where is science? Is not the mainstay of science the investigation of and trying to explain the unexplained?

I do not get why some people think that anything that can be termed paranormal, or crytozooilogical, or any number of other non-mainstream studies, is not scientific? Is not science the method for the investigation of such unknown things?

I am not putting my beliefs one way or the other into the conversation, weather I beleive or disbeleive in no way influences the fact that NO ONE KNOWS for sure if such things exist or not. One either believes, or does not, in neither case is there any solid proof to support that belief structure, otherwise there would be no arguement as to the existance. 

The same is true of religions, that is why it is called a Faith, one either has faith in it, or does not. The only way to know for certain is to die. Until then, who am I or anyone else, to dismiss the possiblity. 

Plus, I kind of hope that there are some things we just cannot solve, such as afterlife or ghosts, possiblities make things so much more interesting.


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## Coop (Aug 23, 2006)

ericg533 said:


> Your first example explains differing linguistics between cultures, but it doesn't relate to this topic. Healthy leaves always radiate a color around 500nm (green). You can call it what you want but its still going to be 500nm.



This is exactly what I'm trying to say. We all accept the fact that 500nm is green. But why? because someone told us it is that way. What if the person who told us was wrong? And what if the guy who defined the metric system made a few errors? That would influence the whole spectrum. In other words, truth is a democracy. If enough people are convinced that something is the way it is, it becomes truth. If enough people agree that 500nm is purple, then 500nm will be accepted as purple.



ericg533 said:


> Also, your statement that things can't be proved is, well, wrong. For example, my name is Eric. It's on my bith certificate and its on my driver's license. It's proved. Also, 1+1=2.



Do you have proof that the information on your papers is correct? Papers can be forged, or mixed up. Maybe you are really Mark, and did they mixed up your birthcertificate with that of Eric. And remember, 1+1=3 (for exceptionally large values of 1) :laughing: 



ericg533 said:


> It's also completely legitimate for one to say that they do not believe in something... and not, as you say, "stupid".



That is not what I said. I said: 'But saying that something doesn't exist because there is no proof is just plain stupid.' That would be denying existence of something that can't be proved (yet), not saying that someones beliefs are stupid.

I'm sorry if this hasn't been clear, must be the language barrier as I'm not a native english speaker. But I was just trying to point out that it really doesn't matter if you look at something in a scientific, religious or supernormal way, as these views are all based on what an individual has been thought, has experienced or has chosen to accept as his or her view. 
Whatever you choose to believe, proven by science or not, there is a lot more out there, which at this time is still beyond our knowledge and comprehension. 

f.y.i. I tend to take the scientific approach myself too, but after my experience, I'm a bit more open to other views as well.


Now can we please get back to all those nice ghost stories


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 23, 2006)

MayCooper said:


> This is exactly what I'm trying to say. We all accept the fact that 500nm is green. But why? because someone told us it is that way. What if the person who told us was wrong? And what if the guy who defined the metric system made a few errors? That would influence the whole spectrum. In other words, truth is a democracy. If enough people are convinced that something is the way it is, it becomes truth. If enough people agree that 500nm is purple, then 500nm will be accepted as purple.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For the first part: That's very 1984-ish. Do you remember the part where the guy is being forced to admit that 2+2 is equal to whatever the government wants? Scary book.

For the second part: It sounds like you're describing disbelief of the implausible. That makes sense, and is the only way to make sense of life. If you take it to the extreme, people would be afraid of things like the sky falling, even though there's no record of that ever happening (literally, anyway). I don't think I could ever get out of bed if I believed that a hole in space-time would suck me out of the universe, or that I'd be eaten by an enormous caterpillar in the middle of suburbia (just examples, by the way - not meant to be insults!  )


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## TedTheLed (Aug 23, 2006)

the universe has been a big place for long time and I don't understand most of it; the laws of nature certainly can appear to be full of magic, ghosts, angels, and demons too, until you figure them out. 

this link "angels and demons" is in a very cool website about the CERN collider being built in Switzerland; if there's any ghosts out there these guys may find them any day now..

click on demon for link:

:devil:


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## spacetroll (Aug 23, 2006)

I posted this the other day in a seperate thread.

Several years back my buddy and I were on a quail hunt/camp trip. We hunted the afternoon then settled into our normal routine of dinner and beers around the fire. Just before dusk we saw a boy scout troup hiking up the canyon that split from ours to the north. They did this a lot, there is a place to park a few miles to the east down the wash and they hike a few miles, set camp and leave in the morning. Around 11 that night we're standing around the fire dipping and spittin and smoking(cigars) and drinkin when we hear someone walking up the road. We quit talking and I light up the road off camp about 30 yards with my MagCharger and it's an old man in a tattered cowboy hat with long gray hair and beard walking along with a green backpack and walking staff with feathers hanging off it. He quietly walks by looking straight ahead never looking at us or even acknowledging us. Oh well, we have been known to venture out in the middle of the night and I have friends that will actually take a half hour walk when they get up in the middle of the night to take a whiz. He must be with the boy scouts and wanted some alone time, we think nothing of it. 
The next morning while packing up camp we see a convoy of 3 sheriffs rigs and a fish and game truck driving up the road that leads up the canyon the boys scouts hiked up. We are obviously curious so we pack the truck and decide to drive down our canyon and up theirs to head out, the two meet at the top anyway. When we get to the scout camp all the kids were either in the sheriffs trucks or around them, a few looked very upset and crying. Theres a body in a sleeping bag on a pad but covered about 8 feet from the fire pit. Neatly placed near the body were boots a tattered old cowboy hat, green backpack and walking staff with feathers hanging from the top end. 

A sheriff walks up to us and we inquire and ask if theres anything we can help with. No he says, one of their scout leaders died in his sleep. We tell him the story from the night before and offer that his late night trek may have done him in, he looks a little spooked and says the entire crew except the other leader tucked in around 10 and he went to bed at midnight saying the old man never moved once he went to sleep. 

The hair on the back of my neck stands on end everytime I remember that trip.


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## Lit Up (Aug 24, 2006)

senecaripple said:


> > i have a question about the Defeo's, i believe they were the previous owners of the house. did they own a car dealership, (cadillac in yonkers, ny)?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Lit Up (Aug 24, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> the universe has been a big place for long time and I don't understand most of it;



True indeed. I think sometimes as humans we get too "comfortable" about things and feel we have a full sense of control. It's times like these it's good to have a picture like this around to put us back into place.








If you see that little white spec inside that blue circle, that's us. That's Earth.


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## cerbie (Aug 24, 2006)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> For the first part: That's very 1984-ish. Do you remember the part where the guy is being forced to admit that 2+2 is equal to whatever the government wants? Scary book.


I think the point is much more about our perceptions of reality being based on common agreements of what is and is not, so that we may communicate; more than anything 1984-like (the 1984 situation is one where it is flipped around).



> For the second part: It sounds like you're describing disbelief of the implausible. That makes sense, and is the only way to make sense of life. If you take it to the extreme, people would be afraid of things like the sky falling, even though there's no record of that ever happening (literally, anyway). I don't think I could ever get out of bed if I believed that a hole in space-time would suck me out of the universe, or that I'd be eaten by an enormous caterpillar in the middle of suburbia (just examples, by the way - not meant to be insults!  )


Ah, but see that's where it is very easy to differ from how you see the world. Three things pop out most:

1. Not everyone must have an active/positive disbelief in anything to make sense of life. Observations and experiences that are not plausible may still be processed and integrated into one's view of the world. Attempting to impose human-like order in the processing certainly pollutes these things. However, claiming that something that seems strange cannot be is not the only way to process the world around you.

2. What you may see as plausible or not are not necessarily the same as someone else. Why, after all, should a haunting be implausible?

3. You appear to assume that no one voting yes has any experience. With that, all the implausibility you could ever muster means nothing; because that person has evidence, if non-communicable.

That goes back to the thing about agreeing that a given wavelength is green. If you cannot define a thing with respect to another person's own experience, you cannot tell them of the nature of that thing. Yet, personal experience, which cannot as a whole be communicated at all (given current technology), is what makes us, and has any real effect on us.

A a few seconds of actual experience is worth more than every word ever written on that subject. Likewise, another person's experience is not worth a single one of those papers.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 24, 2006)

cerbie said:


> ...
> A a few seconds of actual experience is worth more than every word ever written on that subject.
> ...


Totally. Clearly, I've never had any!


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## CroMAGnet (Aug 24, 2006)

Boy! You guys are getting pretty deep on this one. I just came in to post a link to a



CPF/Ghost Tracker's Haunted House Tour





*It's in the San Jose CA area on Friday October 13th!! *

.


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## Nyctophiliac (Aug 24, 2006)

Spacetroll - very nice story...well creepy!

When I worked in a pub in London way back in 1983, the landlord would have after hours drinks with the staff and some regular customers (pubs had to shut after 11 pm in those sepia toned days!!). At around midnight, there were just a couple of us left and the barman was clearing down the far side of the bar. He came over to us and asked us to follow him.
Walking around the bar there was one area which was cold as ice. Like walking through a column of refrigerated air appx 1.5 metres in diameter. Very sharply defined edges. You could stand by it on any side and feel normal, but extend your arm into the column and it was like placing it in a cold glass of coke! Scintillating and wierd! This was not a draft, or any kind of heating convection but a non-moving, clearly defined column of ice extending from floor to cieling !!! (this was summer and pre aircon!). 
I'm not saying it was a ghostly happening, but I have yet to find out what it was. 
The column dissapated completely after half an hour or so.
Before you ask, I was then and am now completely teetotal so I wasn't out of my tree!



More stories please...


Be lucky....


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## senecaripple (Aug 24, 2006)

lit up, if the defeo's owned a car dealership, then i am almost positive it was in yonkers, it did close shortly after the movie, but it was a long fixture in yonkers, and people were saying the cadillac dealer was the former owner of the amityville house!


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## Diesel_Bomber (Aug 24, 2006)

Update again.

Had tea with my neighbor who grew up in my house today. When I asked if anything unusual had ever happened in this house, she smiled and with a twinkle in her eye, said "Had some visitors, eh?" She left shortly after, saying, "Don't worry, they're friends."


:buddies:


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 25, 2006)

The best kind of visitor has fur and paws.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Aug 25, 2006)

Amen to that, brother!

After my wife, my cats are easily my best friends. :thumbsup:


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## DaFABRICATA (Sep 11, 2010)

Bump for a good thread!

Maybe some of our newer members have some stories to share...


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## [email protected] (Sep 11, 2010)

In matters of varied & inconclusive evidence people will believe what they want to and not a whole lot more, you may bring about cause for them to re-evaluate their initial viewpoint but often you wont...

I've experienced odd phenomena since I was a small child but it really kicked in following the end of my teenage years and continue (infrequently) to this day, I agree with Stephen Hawking that this universe is too big not to have other life forms existing somewhere and this belief system continues into my understanding of supernatural phenomena


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## Imon (Sep 11, 2010)

Wow, I'm shocked that in a forum full of tech savvy people, more than a third believe in ghosts....
I must be in the twilight zone :shakehead


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## mudman cj (Sep 11, 2010)

I'm a skeptical person by nature, and my advanced scientific degree conferred an additional degree of skepticism by way of providing me with a framework for understanding most of that which we encounter in this life. That said, I have also come across occurrences that defy explanation. 

I'm not about to make fun of anyone else's beliefs because I have too much respect for all of you. I would like to see everyone else develop the same.

So, after that brief introduction here is a story for you. When my wife and I were yet unmarried, but engaged, she payed a visit to what was once a Carmelite monastery, but had been converted into a hotel about 10 years prior, with the idea that it might make a good site for our wedding and/or rehearsal dinner. When she walked in the entrance, she was greeted by a priest seated just to the right of the door. She began conversing with him, asking questions regarding options we might have if we were married there. He answered her questions, but seemed more interested in me and our relationship. After a nice conversation, he gave his blessing for our wedding and she continued on down the hallway and rounded the corner to the lobby to get more information at the check-in desk. 

She asked the woman behind the desk if the nice priest she had just met was the one that performed marriages at the hotel. She responded, "What priest? It's just me and janitor, and he's up on the 4th floor." My wife proceeded to explain that she had just had a conversation with the priest sitting by the entrance. The woman explained that there had been no priests residing on those grounds for many years. Perplexed, the woman accompanied my wife around the corner only to find no priest and also no chair upon which he had been seated. Furthermore, a coworker of my wife was sitting in the car right outside the door and never saw anyone go in our out besides my wife. The only other way out of that hallway would have been to go right past the check-in desk. Needless to say, the woman was quite spooked by the events. She reported some strange things happening in the hotel to her and the janitor, but never anything quite so personal as a conversation. My wife was not upset in the least, since the encounter had actually been rather pleasant. 

We ended up not getting married there, but not at all because of the disappearing priest. I have to admit that I was creeped out at the thought of consummating our wedding in what used to be the priest's private chambers adjacent to the chapel though!


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## RepProdigious (Sep 11, 2010)

Believe in ghosts? I _*AM *_one, and if you all don't quit acting like i don't exsist pretty quickly i'lil come over and HAUNT your a$$35!!!!










:devil:


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## Flying Turtle (Sep 11, 2010)

I've always had trouble believing in the existence of ghosts. I suppose it's partly because of a heavy doses of science, and that my parents never mentioned the supernatural. Just one of those things I'll have to see to believe, and even then it would be tough.

Now aliens and UFO's are a different story. :tinfoil:

Geoff


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## RWT1405 (Sep 11, 2010)

The Easter bunny & the Tooth ferry were after me, but don't worry, the Keebler elves saved me. 

Really? Are you people serious?

May I suggest 2mg of Narcan for many of you?

My .02 FWIW YMMV


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## AnAppleSnail (Sep 11, 2010)

RWT1405 said:


> The Easter bunny & the Tooth ferry were after me, but don't worry, the Keebler elves saved me.
> 
> Really? Are you people serious?
> 
> ...



That's not particularly polite. I've had good friends share stories that are _really_ weird, and unless they're just trying to spook me (at lunchtime on a sunny day), it was something strange. Sure doors in a house could open or close, but seeing a shape with no one there, hearing a warning before a car down the hill wrecks, and such - well, I wasn't there. But I'm willing to believe that I haven't seen it all.

That said, I wouldn't go around spending good money on ghost repellent, or paying psychics to cold-read me and pretend to talk to my dear dead aunt. But I wasn't there at the camp site, or the old house, or the back alley, and I sure won't call someone crazy just because they say something we don't know about yet.


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## wyager (Sep 12, 2010)

That's where all the ghosts live. Take an electrode, jab it around in your temporal lobe, chances are you will feel all the symptoms of a "ghostly encounter".


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## AnAppleSnail (Sep 12, 2010)

wyager said:


> That's where all the ghosts live. Take an electrode, jab it around in your temporal lobe, chances are you will feel all the symptoms of a "ghostly encounter".



That's one way to cause a 'ghostly encounter.' But the same probe in your heart is just another way to cause a heart attack. Does that mean there aren't other causes?


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## wyager (Sep 12, 2010)

AnAppleSnail said:


> That's one way to cause a 'ghostly encounter.' But the same probe in your heart is just another way to cause a heart attack. Does that mean there aren't other causes?



That's like saying that stabbing someone with a kershaw has a different effect than stabbing someone with a benchmade. While that may technically be true, the difference doesn't really matter at all. All "ghost encounters" monitored under MRI are simply the results of mis-firings in the temporal lobe, whether from epilepsy, environmental triggers like toxins or other causes. In fact, minor temporal lobe epilepsy can be induced electromagnetically and through other external stimuli, which means that multiple people can experience the "there's a ghost in the room" feeling simultaneously.


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## Launch Mini (Sep 12, 2010)

wyager said:


> That's like saying that stabbing someone with a kershaw has a different effect than stabbing someone with a benchmade. While that may technically be true, the difference doesn't really matter at all. All "ghost encounters" monitored under MRI are simply the results of mis-firings in the temporal lobe, whether from epilepsy, environmental triggers like toxins or other causes. In fact, minor temporal lobe epilepsy can be induced electromagnetically and through other external stimuli, which means that multiple people can experience the "there's a ghost in the room" feeling simultaneously.


Wow. I didn't know every ghost encounter could be so easily explained.
I guess every boat is a canoe with scientific explanations like this.


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## [email protected] (Sep 12, 2010)

AnAppleSnail said:


> That's not particularly polite.




That's exactly the response you'd expect and we wonder why people usually keep their unexplainable experiences to themselves... to avoid ridicule, interestingly the USA has one of the highest percentages of religious citizens in the world, their beliefs are based on the documented personal accounts of others, their own experiences & faith would RWT1405 (and cohorts) suggest narcan for them as well? :thinking:




Launch Mini said:


> Wow. I didn't know every ghost encounter could be so easily explained.



Back off man... he's a scientist!


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## wyager (Sep 12, 2010)

Launch Mini said:


> Wow. I didn't know every ghost encounter could be so easily explained.
> I guess every boat is a canoe with scientific explanations like this.



You've got my classifications mixed up. 

Every canoe is a boat. Not every boat is a canoe.
Every ghost encounter is an illusion. Not every illusion is a ghost encounter.

Of course, there are those "ghost encounters" where it's just some car headlights through a window or something, but the more "complex" ones where people hear footsteps, smell smoke, etc. are simply hallucinations generated by erroneous temporal lobe activity. In fact, many of the sensations and sounds people associate with ghost encounters are actually well-observed symptoms of other temporal lobe disorders-including cancers, lesions, and epilepsies. It's rather fascinating to read about the brain triggers that cause these things and cross-disease symptoms like hallucinations that manifest the same way in different people.


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## Empath (Sep 12, 2010)

_As a reminder, we adhere to the policy of "attack the post, and not the poster(s)". If the thread continues to generate attacks against members and derogatory comments about members, the topic will be closed._


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## PhotonWrangler (Sep 12, 2010)

wyager said:


> ...minor temporal lobe epilepsy can be induced electromagnetically and through other external stimuli, which means that multiple people can experience the "there's a ghost in the room" feeling simultaneously.



Interesting. Aren't we talking about enormously strong magnetic fields though? I know of a machine that's used for stimulating a patient's brain through powerful and highly focused EM fields, not the type of energy levels likely to be experienced by an individual outside of a lab environment. What gauss level is involved here?


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## AnAppleSnail (Sep 12, 2010)

I didn't mean to push the thread in this direction. Since this is the Cafe, I feel justified in defending my point a bit (Not myself, because this isn't a personal argument). And since it's not self-defense, nothing below the belt! :wave: Call a foul if you see it and I'll fix the harm.

Wyager, what I meant was that: Simply because a particular thing causes _x_ in some cases, does not mean that it causes all _x_. I suppose this ghost/paranormal stuff gets into what can or can't be known, and how far skepticism versus knowing the limits of knowledge goes. I don't even see a good reason to believe that ghosts are, say, psychic remnants of once-living humans or anything so juicy. But if you want us all to call so many people crazy (or brain-damaged) then I'll need some convincing. One might say "All those things were illusions, fancies, brain lesions, hysteria, or mistaken phenomena." But "all" seems like a mighty strong word to use when you weren't there.

It's easy to say that "We know that we can make people think they see ghosts." But with some chemical changes to the brain we can also make people feel spiders crawling on them. Who hasn't felt that ticklishness from real spiders though? I'm definitely not trying to claim that "science can't study ghosts," but the darn things seem to be weird and picky about who they show off to, and when.


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## wyager (Sep 12, 2010)

PhotonWrangler said:


> Interesting. Aren't we talking about enormously strong magnetic fields though? I know of a machine that's used for stimulating a patient's brain through powerful and highly focused EM fields, not the type of energy levels likely to be experienced by an individual outside of a lab environment. What gauss level is involved here?



Some searching turns up the following, in a book by michael persinger (a leading scientist in the field): "At 5 hertz, the magnetic component is about 10^-8 gauss[...]"

This is on par with the magnetic field of the human brain, and is incredibly weak. I would suppose this means that even small magnetic currents can interact significantly with the brain.



AnAppleSnail said:


> Wyager, what I meant was that: Simply because a particular thing causes _x_ in some cases, does not mean that it causes all _x_. I suppose this ghost/paranormal stuff gets into what can or can't be known, and how far skepticism versus knowing the limits of knowledge goes. I don't even see a good reason to believe that ghosts are, say, psychic remnants of once-living humans or anything so juicy. But if you want us all to call so many people crazy (or brain-damaged) then I'll need some convincing. One might say "All those things were illusions, fancies, brain lesions, hysteria, or mistaken phenomena." But "all" seems like a mighty strong word to use when you weren't there.
> 
> It's easy to say that "We know that we can make people think they see ghosts." But with some chemical changes to the brain we can also make people feel spiders crawling on them. Who hasn't felt that ticklishness from real spiders though? I'm definitely not trying to claim that "science can't study ghosts," but the darn things seem to be weird and picky about who they show off to, and when.



Yes, all those people who experienced ghostly phenomenon were mistaken. They weren't crazy or damaged, just victims of how the brain works. I don't have to have been there to know that. Your example doesn't apply because spiders are physically observable phenomenon while ghosts are decidedly not. And it's true, these ghost sightings appear to happen when people are tired, scared, or in other situations that might cause them to be more likely to hallucinate.


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## AnAppleSnail (Sep 12, 2010)

wyager said:


> Yes, all those people who experienced ghostly phenomenon were mistaken. They weren't crazy or damaged, just victims of how the brain works. I don't have to have been there to know that. Your example doesn't apply because spiders are physically observable phenomenon while ghosts are decidedly not. And it's true, these ghost sightings appear to happen when people are tired, scared, or in other situations that might cause them to be more likely to hallucinate.



So are they wrong because they've seen ghosts (an unobservable phenomena), or are ghosts unobserved phenomena because they're only seen by people who are wrong? It's too easy to say "They're wrong because they can't be right."

I'd leave it here, but they say no two rational people could ever agree to disagree 

You seem to be arguing that "Because stimulating the brain in a certain way causes an illusion, everything like that illusion is false." Similar stimulations cause vague tickling. In the dark today, I felt millipedes brushing past my legs (wearing shorts). I never saw a millipede near my legs, though. I'd call that a failure in observation, rather than assuming that millipedes never ever snuggle up to warm legs near cold cement? At this point, rebutting with "But ghosts aren't real" would be stating your conclusion as a premise.


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## wyager (Sep 12, 2010)

AnAppleSnail said:


> So are they wrong because they've seen ghosts (an unobservable phenomena), or are ghosts unobserved phenomena because they're only seen by people who are wrong? It's too easy to say "They're wrong because they can't be right."



I suppose this is valid. However, my original intentions weren't to suggest that everything that can be simulated must be simulated. I was simply positing that the one logical explanation for the existence of these complex ghost illusions was the result of brain misfirings. I suppose at this point occam is my friend. A ghost is definitely an _entia sine necessitatem_.


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## PhotonWrangler (Sep 12, 2010)

wyager said:


> Some searching turns up the following, in a book by michael persinger (a leading scientist in the field): "At 5 hertz, the magnetic component is about 10^-8 gauss[...]"
> 
> This is on par with the magnetic field of the human brain, and is incredibly weak. I would suppose this means that even small magnetic currents can interact significantly with the brain.



That _is_ a pretty tiny field strength. Seems that I could simulate that with an audio oscillator, amplifier and speaker coil. Hmm...


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## wyager (Sep 12, 2010)

PhotonWrangler said:


> That _is_ a pretty tiny field strength. Seems that I could simulate that with an audio oscillator, amplifier and speaker coil. Hmm...



Yes, I bet you could. Although thinking about it, there must be more to it... otherwise, wouldn't many electronic devices cause this erroneous brain activity? I suppose not many high-magnetic-field devices operate at the 2-10hz the brain seems to interact with, but still...

Go ahead and try it with a speaker coil or something, tell us if you hear ghosts when you play a 5hz sound and stick it next to your head. It would certainly be interesting.


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## sabre7 (Sep 12, 2010)

*deleted*


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## wyager (Sep 12, 2010)

creepy as heck... oo:
Now I'm getting all paranoid.


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## PhotonWrangler (Sep 12, 2010)

I've had cases where I've walked around in buildings and suddenly had that feeling that there was an eerie presence in the room with me. Then I learned that sub-audible vibrations from a furnace blower motor resonating through the air ducts can cause this exact sensation. This can also explain why a group of people can 'sense' the same thing at the same time. When the blower motor kicks on, you can't hear it but you can sense it, however the brain misinterprets the information.


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## wyager (Sep 12, 2010)

PhotonWrangler said:


> I've had cases where I've walked around in buildings and suddenly had that feeling that there was an eerie presence in the room with me. Then I learned that sub-audible vibrations from a furnace blower motor resonating through the air ducts can cause this exact sensation. This can also explain why a group of people can 'sense' the same thing at the same time. When the blower motor kicks on, you can't hear it but you can sense it, however the brain misinterprets the information.



I used to live in a big condo and the same thing always happened. I would walk out in to the hallway to take out the trash and I would always get really creeped out. One time, the forced air turned off and I was immediately un-creeped out. :duh2:


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## PhotonWrangler (Sep 12, 2010)

wyager said:


> I used to live in a big condo and the same thing always happened. I would walk out in to the hallway to take out the trash and I would always get really creeped out. One time, the forced air turned off and I was immediately un-creeped out. :duh2:



I love these A-HA moments!


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## sabre7 (Sep 12, 2010)

*deleted*


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## [email protected] (Sep 12, 2010)

wyager said:


> Yes, all those people who experienced ghostly phenomenon were mistaken. They weren't crazy or damaged, just victims of how the brain works. I don't have to have been there to know that.



So I'm wondering how your proposed explanation would relate to religion & it's basis on individual's experiences & purported observable phenomena, were these individuals in history also suffering from brain anomalies? :thinking:

I'm with AnAppleSnail... science isn't the "be all and end all" of human understanding, there will always be new fields to study, observe and attempt to explain our universe/environment, let's contemplate the first law of Thermodynamics (energy cannot be destroyed, simply transformed into another type of energy) for a moment, what happens to the human electromagnetic field at the point of the bodies death? where does all that electrical energy go? :thinking:


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## mudman cj (Sep 12, 2010)

These explanations that rely upon anomalies within the brain fail to explain instances where multiple people experience the same thing. The notion of an extremely powerful magnetic field, such as with the device dubbed the "God Helmet" (terrible name BTW IMHO) causing hallucinations among all those present would still fail to explain cases where multiple individuals experience a similar event at different times and/or locations. 

Sometimes Ocham's razor is double-edged if you know what I mean.


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## PSEUDOSENTIENT (Sep 12, 2010)

I have personally lived in a haunted house, and worked in a haunted place, and witnessed lights turning on by themselves, and doors opening and closing. I also have made computer recordings of something that called itself an "entity" talking to me. I have seen a full on, glowing ghost looking right at me. I've even found metal objects melted without a source of heat.

Sounds crazy right? Of course it does, if you have no reason to believe these things exist. See, I do. Those are the reasons.

I'm not going to bother relating the details... none of it provides any evidence to anyone else that such things are real, because to anyone else but me, its anecdotal, and could be a forgery or misperception. And that is the problem. Ghosts are real and do leave evidence, but its not repeatable. You can't prove my claims. I can't prove them either.

Imagine that I fly to Boston for business, go into a bar and wind up sitting by chance beside a girl I had a crush on in high school. I tell her about how I used to feel, and we wind up having a great one-night-fling in a hotel room. I tell my scientist friend about it when I return home, and he doesnt believe me. To test my story, he recruits a team of testers, who fly to Boston and sit in the same bar to see if this actually happens. They all return and report to him that at no time did a high school sweetheart appear. So, my friend concludes my story is false. But it is, in fact, true.

So, events can happen that are not repeatable by others in testing. Those who have not experienced the supernatural need to understand that just because they don't experience something and can't repeat it scientifically, does not mean that those who report these experiences are irrational, liars, overly imaginative, or not comprehending their senses properly. Don't be condescending.

While my experiences really shook me up, now I'm glad they happened because I have real proof that more exists than meets the eye. I hope you have the same chance someday, as it really changes how you think about life.

In the words of Forrest Gump - "thats all I have to say about that."


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## wyager (Sep 12, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> So I'm wondering how your proposed explanation would relate to religion & it's basis on individual's experiences & purported observable phenomena, were these individuals in history also suffering from brain anomalies? :thinking:


No comment 



[email protected] said:


> I'm with AnAppleSnail... science isn't the "be all and end all" of human understanding, there will always be new fields to study, observe and attempt to explain our universe/environment, let's contemplate the first law of Thermodynamics (energy cannot be destroyed, simply transformed into another type of energy) for a moment, what happens to the human electromagnetic field at the point of the bodies death? where does all that electrical energy go? :thinking:


The human electromagnetic field at the point of death? Well, I would imagine it does the same thing as any other electromagnet that you turn off... the field collapses. No reason to think otherwise. If every EM field has to turn in to something else whenever its power source dies, every time you turn on and off a relay you're creating another spirit.



mudman cj said:


> These explanations that rely upon anomalies within the brain fail to explain instances where multiple people experience the same thing. The notion of an extremely powerful magnetic field, such as with the device dubbed the "God Helmet" (terrible name BTW IMHO) causing hallucinations among all those present would still fail to explain cases where multiple individuals experience a similar event at different times and/or locations.
> 
> Sometimes Ocham's razor is double-edged if you know what I mean.



They explain it just fine.... :thinking: 
Look up phantosmia-sometimes the same stimuli will cause the same reaction in two completely different people. It's why multiple people in a room can get the "we're being watched" feeling at the same time.



PSEUDOSENTIENT said:


> Imagine that I fly to Boston for business, go into a bar and wind up sitting by chance beside a girl I had a crush on in high school. I tell her about how I used to feel, and we wind up having a great one-night-fling in a hotel room. I tell my scientist friend about it when I return home, and he doesnt believe me. To test my story, he recruits a team of testers, who fly to Boston and sit in the same bar to see if this actually happens. They all return and report to him that at no time did a high school sweetheart appear. So, my friend concludes my story is false. But it is, in fact, true.
> 
> So, events can happen that are not repeatable by others in testing. Those who have not experienced the supernatural need to understand that just because they don't experience something and can't repeat it scientifically, does not mean that those who report these experiences are irrational, liars, overly imaginative, or not comprehending their senses properly. Don't be condescending.
> 
> ...



Care to share those recordings? Non-repeatable experiments are still recordable, as you said. I'm interested to hear them.


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## AnAppleSnail (Sep 12, 2010)

wyager said:


> I used to live in a big condo and the same thing always happened. I would walk out in to the hallway to take out the trash and I would always get really creeped out. One time, the forced air turned off and I was immediately un-creeped out. :duh2:



I can't say whether ghosts exist, but sounds can be creepy! Once I was in a bomb-proof tunnel underground. Unless there really ARE secret government bunkers hidden in the empty places, the nearest electronics besides my flashlight (on) and my camera (off) were over a mile away. But there was something *creepy* about it. The tunnel is accessed by a stairway from a sheet-metal building. As soon as your head goes below the (very thick) concrete pad the building is on, it's just instantly a dead silence full of something.

What's interesting is that even 50 yards down the tunnel, that feeling was gone. I think to this day that the sheet metal building does it somehow. Maybe small winds vibrate it - and near the building, in the dead silence of the tunnel, your brain picks up on the vibrations.

I have to wonder how many college pranks were like this - hook up a tone generator to dorm plumbing and fire it up, quietly, in the dead of the night.


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## Launch Mini (Sep 12, 2010)

wyager said:


> You've got my classifications mixed up.
> 
> Every canoe is a boat. Not every boat is a canoe.
> Every ghost encounter is an illusion. Not every illusion is a ghost encounter.
> ...


 

Wonder how this worked in "one instance" I had a few years ago. 
My wife & I were driving home in our car. I turned to my wife and said "Tina just died".
She was "WHAT?"
Me - Tina, the girl who lives behind us, she just died.

There was no reason for me to say this. It just hit me.

The next morning, we hear that the car she was travelling in was struck by a car involved in a high speed police chase. She was thrown from the car, her mother got out an ran to her, & she died in her mothers arms.

May not have been a ghost, but my wife was totally freaked when we heard the news.


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## don.gwapo (Sep 12, 2010)

*Do you believe in ghosts/poltergeists? *

Not at all. I would even love to see it in person if there's any. :devil:.


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## vickers214 (Sep 12, 2010)

No i dont personally, but there are a lot of rational people telling of experiences, and to be honest i think 99.9% could be explained away, such as chemicals in the brain causing mild Hallucinations when people are scared, electromagnetic fields etc etc.
 
BUT i do believe there are some things that cannot be explained away with science alone, and i do keep a slightly open mind on what could be the reason for these happenings, good or bad!


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## CarpentryHero (Sep 12, 2010)

I believe, the energy in the humon body goes somewhere. Returns to nature, becoming one with god(maybe) 

Sometimes I feel it in places, before I've even been told of someone passing over there. We have a haunted firestation here, someone asked me, guess which one, I replied the now Amb station 34, formerly firestation 5 ? And they asked how I knew. I replied the heebee geebees, last time I was there.
Could be coincidence, but two other houses I've been too were violent deaths happened gave me the willies without me knowing there history till after I was there


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## Tuikku (Sep 12, 2010)

I´m very sceptic with these, so voted no.

My work partner for a couple of years is also very sceptic but told me a quite interesting tale from last year.
As we work, we share a lot of things from lives of each other.

To keep it short:

They were at (if I recall correct) his uncle at daytime.
They were maybe having a cigarette outside. They went out through boiler room which had oil burner. Went to backyard to have smoke.

When my friend was going back in, he pulled door handle after him to close it.
Door handle was _pulled out of his hand_, from quite firm grip.
No one pulled it...
Door slammed wide open but it doesn´t end there...
Door jumped off from its hinges and "flew" a couple of meter to ground. Door was at height of 3 steps from ground level.

3 people saw the door jumping off from it´s place.

Funny things:
-there was no breeze nor there was another door open in that house. Neither window
-Oil heater was not on, no flame, no backfire or such
-there was no one outside.
-there was nothing stuck or between the door when closed
-My friend was sober at the moment 
-Door was not using any spring loaded force to shut it self automatically
-Door was metal plated fire-proof door. Weight ~80-120 pounds
-door was properly attached 
-door had 3 hinges, two at high, one at low
-The door HAS TO BE opened almost 90°, if you want it to be lifted off from hinges. IT cannot be lifted at all when it is closed more than 90°.
-It has to be lifted more than 2" to get it off the hinges

Finally, it took 3 silent guys to put the door back. 2 were lifting and one was aiming it to right place...


Any ideas?


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## PSEUDOSENTIENT (Sep 12, 2010)

wyager said:


> Care to share those recordings? Non-repeatable experiments are still recordable, as you said. I'm interested to hear them.


 
Thanks for your interest, and not laughing out loud.

My only reason for posting at all was to just ask skeptics to be a little more tolerant of people's claims, and give them a logical reason why other people could have valid experiences that they haven't yet had and can't duplicate. So if you will forgive me I would rather not get in the mode of emailing out files and discussing them. 

I've already done that personally and over the web in the past, and discussed people's reactions with them about the files. Frankly I'm really over it. At this point I am organizing all my work as little scraps of time permit, to make it a presentable DVD that I can share with people easily, and best of all, it will contain its own discussion so I dont have to have it anymore! This will be free, not a product btw. Its just to help people. Someday I hope to finish that and I work on it from time to time. I don't make recordings any more, just so you know. Its a good way to invite things into your life you'd rather not have in it, 'nuff said. 

I did share the recordings at first, but after doing some reading I found out its nothing new at all... its called "EVP" ( Electronic Voice Phenomena ). If you research that on the web you will find recordings that sound more or less like mine. The thing is though, mine are actual speech that is very clear, and there are few that are like that. Sometimes they sound demonic, sometimes like men, sometimes like women, sometimes it changes "gender" in mid sentence.

Be warned, most of what people call "EVP" is just noise that sounds like speech, so they interpret it as that. This is called ( hope I spell this right ) peredolia, which is the tendency of people's minds to interpret things as known patterns. So what most people are calling EVP is nothing but noise, plus their imagination. Some is clearly, indisputably speech, but if you were not there, how do you know its not a person talking? You can google EVP and listen all day to that stuff but like I said, its only of limited value to anyone else because there is plenty of room for doubt if it is a hoax. Even I, someone who knows absolutely that it CAN be true, think that most of it is fake because there are plenty of people trying to make a buck off of the curiosity of others by selling DVD's books, and recording equipment. "Follow the money", right?

To sum up: 
1) This stuff is real, but not scientifically provable at this point AFAIK.
2) Most of what is on the net is likely fake. 
3) No, I'm not interested in sharing and talking about the stuff at this time. I'm sorry about that but I just dont have the time or interest. 

Thanks again for not mocking. I appreciate it.

PS I am quite enjoying reading the stories of others here... its always good to feel like you're not alone in your experiences!!


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## Launch Mini (Sep 12, 2010)

wyager said:


> Some searching turns up the following, in a book by michael persinger (a leading scientist in the field): "At 5 hertz, the magnetic component is about 10^-8 gauss[...]"
> 
> This is on par with the magnetic field of the human brain, and is incredibly weak. I would suppose this means that even small magnetic currents can interact significantly with the brain.
> 
> ...


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## wyager (Sep 12, 2010)

Launch Mini said:


> If that is freaky, then you should read about HAARP and the conspiracy theories surrounding that. Downright scary if even part of what they say they can do is true.
> 
> Start here ...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZOt29NR0FYhttp://info-wars.org/2009/12/04/jesse-ventura-on-haarp-videos/



That video is pretty sensationalist-The HAARP is designed to operate in the LHF band, not anywhere close to what can interact with the brain. I'm not sure about the other stuff, but it still seems pretty unlikely. Any long-range antennas optimized for brain wave frequencies would have to be at least 8000km long. (quarter-wave at 10hz)

but to be fair, I haven't really looked in to it much...


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## Imon (Sep 12, 2010)

Just curious ... this is a open question to the people who believe in ghosts. Do you also believe in non-human animal ghosts as well? 
I'm asking this question because it would make no sense if you believed in human ghosts but not non-human animal ghosts or even plant ghosts.


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## [email protected] (Sep 13, 2010)

wyager said:


> No comment



So it's okay to attempt a debunk of one groups beliefs, but not another? hypocrisy or CYA? :thinking:




wyager said:


> The human electromagnetic field at the point of death? Well, I would imagine it does the same thing as any other electromagnet that you turn off... the field collapses. No reason to think otherwise. If every EM field has to turn in to something else whenever its power source dies, every time you turn on and off a relay you're creating another spirit.



So the First Law of Thermodynamics is wrong? 

With an EM field you disconnect it's power source via a switch/relay the source remains unchanged but no longer connected, in death no such switch is actuated thus if according to the FLOTD the energy doesn't simply cease to exist... where does it go, what happened?


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## AnAppleSnail (Sep 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> So the First Law of Thermodynamics is wrong?
> 
> With an EM field you disconnect it's power source via a switch/relay the source remains unchanged but no longer connected, in death no such switch is actuated thus if according to the FLOTD the energy doesn't simply cease to exist... where does it go, what happened?



I know you can'd disagree that an electromagnet whose battery dies must stop magneting. Why would the human body be any different? Magnetic fields don't really 'contain' energy anyway. They set up a potential whereby work could be done - like gravity. But the Earth doesn't "have" energy because of its gravity. All that a field force means is that changing position stores or releases stored energy.


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## rodfran (Sep 13, 2010)

No-but they do make good movies! The old Vincent Price movies are my favorites.


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## wyager (Sep 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> So it's okay to attempt a debunk of one groups beliefs, but not another? hypocrisy or CYA? :thinking:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I said "no comment" because I didn't want to start an argument about religion. Not because I'm contradicting myself.

I'm not contradicting the 1st law of thermodynamics at all... Do you know how a magnetic field collapses? When you cut the power to a loop of wire, the magnetic field goes away. It doesn't violate any laws because the collapse of the field generates inductance in the wire. It's not magic, and it certainly doesn't turn in to a ghost.


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## Launch Mini (Sep 13, 2010)

I have a "feeling" that this thread may not generate any more cool stories.
Wonder why


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## [email protected] (Sep 13, 2010)

AnAppleSnail said:


> I know you can'd disagree that an electromagnet whose battery dies must stop magneting. Why would the human body be any different? Magnetic fields don't really 'contain' energy anyway.






wyager said:


> I'm not contradicting the 1st law of thermodynamics at all... Do you know how a magnetic field collapses? When you cut the power to a loop of wire, the magnetic field goes away.




Definitely agree regarding the physiology of the magnetic field, however my point is to dissipate a magnetic field you disconnect it's energy source... right?

So what I'm asking is not why a human electromagnetic field collapses but what happens to the energy that fed that electromagnetic field at the point of death where does THAT energy go (not the EM field)? we are more than mere batteries/biochemical processes no? :thinking:


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## flatline (Sep 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Definitely agree regarding the physiology of the magnetic field, however my point is to dissipate a magnetic field you disconnect it's energy source... right?
> 
> So what I'm asking is not why a human electromagnetic field collapses but what happens to the energy that fed that electromagnetic field at the point of death where does THAT energy go (not the EM field)? we are more than mere batteries/biochemical processes no? :thinking:



The electromagnetic field is powered by our metabolic processes which, in turn, is fueled by the food we eat. Are you suggesting that our bodies have another source of power?

--flatline


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## [email protected] (Sep 13, 2010)

Launch Mini said:


> I have a "feeling" that this thread may not generate any more cool stories.
> Wonder why



Sorry, it's hard not to try and defend one's beliefs/experiences in the face of over whelming pessimistic scepticism, you want creepy? okay... 


Back in early 1979 our family home (here in Central Victoria) was a brick veneer with a design prominent of those built between 1950~1965, essentially there was nothing special about this house it was comparatively the same as the one next door and so on. One morning I was out of bed unusually early and headed down to the kitchen, the house was quiet and I was the only one out of bed, I was about 8 years old at the time.

My Parents were strict but fair and because of my younger siblings never left scissors, sharp objects OR matches/lighters within reach of us, on this particular morning I noted a brown dingy box of matches on the kitchen counter which I picked up noting it's unusual exterior design (I've never seen anywhere since) with the wording similar to "remember our boy's overseas" on one side, the opposing side had an unusual brown staining on it's surface along with a picture of an Aussie digger/soldier, I took this to my parents who "freaked" interrogating me as to where I acquired this item and eventually directing me to "show them" where I found it.

They explained to me that these matches were wartime issue (circa WWII) and indicated that products of this era often had patriotic messages emblazon on them as was the tradition of the day, being so long ago I don't recall the brand with 100% accuracy but I believe they were "Redhead" matches.

My Parents placed these matches up on the rangehood exhaust fan (out of reach) where they remained for almost a week, returning from shopping one day they were noticed to be missing, nobody else had been home (or had keys) during this particular morning.

Years later my Father confided in me that around the time of the "matches episode" he'd been awakened by what he thought initially was one of us children standing at the foot of their bed, after turning to switch on his bedside lamp he could see nothing and immediately checked on us of which we were all tucked up into our beds and sound asleep, he also checked all of the doors and windows only to find they were all secured from the inside.

As a foot note to this account of events is my behaviour related to me by my Mother from when I was at a pre-school age, like many children I had an "invisible friend" who I'd converse with, play games with and who I'd convey to others was sitting in a particular chair etc. the noteworthy part of this was their name "Jack" which apparently unsettled my Mother as it was the preferred name of my Grandfather who died shortly after WWII, she and my Grandmother never spoke of him and obviously I'd never met him. 



*Additional CPF reference threads:*

Anyone believe in ghosts - circa 2009

Flashlights for flashing at ghost? - circa 2008


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## [email protected] (Sep 13, 2010)

flatline said:


> The electromagnetic field is powered by our metabolic processes which, in turn, is fueled by the food we eat. Are you suggesting that our bodies have another source of power?



I'm merely suggesting that we are more than simple electricity generators, I believe our consciousness is part of our bio-mechanical makeup but also apart from it and can exist separate from from it such as in cases of "Astral Projection" and similar out-of body experiences


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## wyager (Sep 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> we are more than mere batteries/biochemical processes no? :thinking:



Why do you think this?

Edit:



[email protected] said:


> I'm merely suggesting that we are more than simple electricity generators, I believe our consciousness is part of our bio-mechanical makeup but also apart from it and can exist separate from from it such as in cases of "Astral Projection" and similar out-of body experiences




That's where it stops being science and starts being religion. Last time I was in a thread where someone tried to pass religion off as science, it attracted the attention of mods. Lots of bickering.


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## Imon (Sep 14, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> I'm merely suggesting that we are more than simple electricity generators, I believe our consciousness is part of our bio-mechanical makeup but also apart from it and can exist separate from from it such as in cases of "Astral Projection" and similar out-of body experiences



I had a out-of-body experience once ... it was chemically induced :shrug:

I'm not exactly sure I understand what you mean by saying consciousness is part of our bio-mechanical makeup...
This, of course, would mean that other non-human animals would have this consciousness-embedding substance in their biochemistry, after all, if consciousness is self awareness, the other great apes have demonstrated it, so have dolphins and even octopuses.


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## AnAppleSnail (Sep 14, 2010)

Imon said:


> I had a out-of-body experience once ... it was chemically induced :shrug:
> 
> I'm not exactly sure I understand what you mean by saying consciousness is part of our bio-mechanical makeup...
> This, of course, would mean that other non-human animals would have this consciousness-embedding substance in their biochemistry, after all, if consciousness is self awareness, the other great apes have demonstrated it, so have dolphins and even octopuses.



We're getting firmly off topic here, but it brings up the idea of emergent behavior. In a system with interacting parts, interesting things happen - stuff you wouldn't expect. No mind really plans it, it's just how things work. Here's an example:

Braitenberg Vehicle model

Let's say that you build a robot: It has a sensor that controls its motor speed. Suppose that more light - or some other stimulus (Temperature, oxygen concentration, noise, radiation) - makes the motor go faster, and less light makes it drive more slowly. You'll have a very simple skateboard that lurks in the dark and skitters in the light. Pretty boring.

Now tape two of these together, and you get different behavior. The robot will turn away from light. The nearer sensor/motor pair will speed up.

Now, cross-wire their sensors - Right sensor to left motor, left sensor to right motor. Now what happens? It acts differently. The robot will turn towards light (The right sensor sees more light than the left sensor, the left motor speeds up more). The robot will turn towards a light source and charge at it.

But slightly turning the sensors, so that their view crosses, makes more complex behavior. A robot is far from a light source which is slightly to the right of its path. Now the left sensor will see more light, speeding up the right motor to avoid the light. But if the robot were to be close to a light source, the opposite happens. Now the robot will avoid a fight, but charge if "cornered" by a light source.

This is emergent behavior, where the way parts of a system interact 'create' behavior you wouldn't expect. A lot of science indicates that it might be all consciousness is. But consciousness and emergent behavior are unbelievably complex, so much so that they can probably only ever be simulated (not calculated), so I'm not sure if we'll understand either to the point where we can call them the same or different anytime soon.

calculated vs. simulated. If something is simple, you can calculate it. Compound interest is one example. Another is speed of a falling object. A simple rule governs what happens. Simulation is needed when things are too complex for one or a few rules. For example, wind drag on a car's body is too complex to calculate, we simulate it. The car is modeled and a computer thinks about the physics of airflow. But the computer doesn't "understand" fluid flow any more than a four-function calculator does. It just does math that it's told to, and all the understanding is in the simulation. Thats why you have to be smarter than what you're modeling to simulate it.​


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## Launch Mini (Sep 14, 2010)

SORRY I had to delete my text. 

I had a story about Tina written here, but hesitated 



before I hit SUBMIT, I am rethinking this. I still live in the same house, just across the alley from where she grew up. The hairs on the back of my neck are standing up with a chill down my back.

I might pm this out later, but there is no way I can hit post.
We've have many "Tina" Incidents , but this is not the right time to post this one.


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## Imon (Sep 14, 2010)

AnAppleSnail said:


> We're getting firmly off topic here, but it brings up the idea of emergent behavior. In a system with interacting parts, interesting things happen - stuff you wouldn't expect. No mind really plans it, it's just how things work. Here's an example:
> 
> Braitenberg Vehicle model
> 
> ...



What I was refering to, but not mentioning, is smearing paint onto a chimpanzee's forehead. You then introduce a mirror reflection of the chimpanzee and he subsequently tries to rub the paint off his own head instead of the reflection and here you are talking about lights and robots. Sheesh. :duh2:


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## [email protected] (Sep 14, 2010)

wyager said:


> That's where it stops being science and starts being religion. Last time I was in a thread where someone tried to pass religion off as science, it attracted the attention of mods. Lots of bickering.



Don't try and turn out of body experiences, telekinesis, & other experiences of the mind into a religious topic :duh2:


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## sabre7 (Sep 14, 2010)

deleted


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## OCD (Sep 14, 2010)

Unfortunately, I think this thread has turned into "_Why I think your wrong for believing in ghosts/poltergeists_". :shakehead


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## Imon (Sep 14, 2010)

OCD said:


> Unfortunately, I think this thread has turned into "_Why I think your wrong for believing in ghosts/poltergeists_". :shakehead



That would be "Why I think _you're _wrong for believing in ghosts/poltergeist".


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## OCD (Sep 14, 2010)

Imon said:


> That would be "Why I think _you're _wrong for believing in ghosts/poltergeist".



Those letters must have disappeared...like a GHOST!


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## [email protected] (Sep 14, 2010)

sabre7 said:


> Seems this thread has been permanently diverted and repeatedly steered into a debate of assorted science topics instead of ghosts/poltergeists--previous posts deleted as irrelevant.



That's unfortunate, I really would like to hear of others accounts of their experiences with the paranormal (as would 40% of our pollsters) 



OCD said:


> Unfortunately, I think this thread has turned into "_Why I think you're wrong for believing in ghosts/poltergeists_". :shakehead



That would appear to be the case, perhaps an appeal to the Mod's and/or a new thread specifically for detailing personal experiences (sceptics need not apply)? :thinking:


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## vaughnsphotoart (Sep 14, 2010)

My previous house was haunted, I say that as a matter of fact. It was an old farmhouse originally built in 1797. I'm a pretty dubious fellow but after a while certain things got hard to ignore. For instance:


Upstairs bedroom doors would slam on their own, mostly in the middle of the night. This happened annoyingly often. I ended up having to put an eyelet in the wall for each door, and tying a loop of paracord to it, so I could put it around the doorknob and physically hold the doors open.
The clear and unmistakable sound of a child's bare feet trekking through my bedroom one night into the bathroom... then back about minute later... followed by the slam of a door. This only happened once.
Waking one night, and seeing "something" floating in a corner of my room. It's hard to define... the dark looked different... colorful somehow. Like when you close your eyes and rub them... black, but technicolor too. I woke my wife, and being careful to only look at the bed so as not to bias the results, I asked her to look around the room and see if she saw anything unusual. She immediately identified the same spot near the attic stairs.
sounds of children laughing upstairs when noone but me was home. This happened all times of day.
sounds of things moving upstairs, falling, or getting dragged. Never could correlate this with actual objects out of place though.
There were other things, but these were the most obvious.
All of the above would only happen in the late winter/early spring. 

The previous owner had researched the house in an attempt to get it in the national historic registry, so I inherited a huge folder of research when I bought the place. After this all started one spring, I dug into that folder! Turns out a family had lost three children in two years... two from pneumonia, who both died in the house. All died in the spring.

It's one of those things that's easy to disbelieve until you experience it.


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## PhotonWrangler (Sep 14, 2010)

I lean towards the scientific explanations. Here are some of the things about ghost stories that I find contrary to certain physical laws and properties - 

Ghosts can supposedly pass through walls, yet they can lift things, jangle chanis, etc? I don't see how it's possible for an entity to both not collide with physical mass (walls, doors) and collide with it (pots & pans, chains, doorknobs) at the same time.

Hearing ghost voices - this is really an extension of the question above. In order to make sound that we perceive in our ears, an object needs to be able to collide with air moleucles and push them around, forming synchronous bursts of air that correspond to the frequency of the sound being produced. If a ghost can pass through walls without colliding, it doesn't seem possible that it can also push air molecules around to form sound waves.

EVP "voices." Same as above. In order for a microphone to pick up sounds, it's diaphragm has to be pushed around by air currents, which have to be pushed around by... an object that can pass through solid objects? 

And as far as picking up voices without a microphone...

It's happened to me personally. I was on a location shooting some video when these mysterious "voices" showed up in the sound. The voices included distant singing, odd noises, and an occasional beer commercial.

There is something called rectification that happens in the mic preamp of audio recorders when they're in the vicinity of a strong radio station. It's pretty difficult to get rid of when the field strength is fairly high.


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## mvyrmnd (Sep 14, 2010)

I've skipped all but the first and last page of this thread, but my ideas reflect the sentiments of the earlier posts;

I can't say that I categorically believe in ghosts or the like, but I find it impossible to deny their existence. There is so much in this universe that we are simply not equipped to sense or even understand.

We don't know how the brain works. We don't know why we sleep, except that we get sleepy.

We don't even know how we came to exist!

We have theories, and ideas. That's all.

Who's to say what happens beyond this life? We don't and more importantly CAN'T know. We are simply incapable of understanding. We're not wired to do it.

Some people have a better sense for these things. It's the same as I might be able to see better than you, you might be able to sense other things better than me.

As for what consciousness is? Your guess is as good as mine. For thousands of years our best thinkers and philosophers have been trying to work it out, to no avail. We're not going to answer that question here, either.


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## wyager (Sep 14, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Don't try and turn out of body experiences, telekinesis, & other experiences of the mind into a religious topic :duh2:



Then don't try and use pseudo-science in a scientific argument. If it's not religious, it's quasi-religious. All of the things you mentioned are not scientifically backed up in any way.



OCD said:


> Unfortunately, I think this thread has turned into "_Why I think your wrong for believing in ghosts/poltergeists_". :shakehead



The title of the thread is "Do you believe in ghosts/poltergeists?". Both sides are allowed to support their opinion, and relevant information.



mvyrmnd said:


> We don't know how the brain works. We don't know why we sleep, except that we get sleepy.
> 
> We don't even know how we came to exist!
> 
> ...



The whole idea that humans are inherently incapable of understanding, or that we are not "wired" to know these things is not fact, and is not scientifically based in any way. It is an excuse used by those who would rather give up learning than push forward. We CAN know what happens after we die and we DO know what happens after we die (at least the scientists do-and I don't mean labcoat type scientists, I mean anyone who strictly follows logic, even above fallible personal experience). Any superstitious ideas regarding death are remnants of ancient and outmoded tradition based on a lack of understanding and supression of knowledge. The only reason that we don't perfectly understand the brain is because our machinery and mathematics are still evolving-not because we can't understand the brain.

Of course, it's difficult to say this without disagreeing with someone's religion, which of course ends up leading to tremendous amounts of drama and annoyance... :shrug: It's difficult to avoid overflow into religious topic in a thread about ghosts.


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## [email protected] (Sep 14, 2010)

wyager said:


> Then don't try and use pseudo-science in a scientific argument. If it's not religious, it's quasi-religious.



I'm not, I'm trying to see how science can explain such anomalies, I'd hardly call the First Law Of Thermodynamics "pseudo science" either 




wyager said:


> All of the things you mentioned are not scientifically backed up in any way.



No and during the cold war the Russians didn't spend any money on researching enhanced abilities of the human mind or did they? 







vaughnsphotoart said:


> The clear and unmistakable sound of a child's bare feet trekking through my bedroom one night into the bathroom...
> 
> [snip]
> 
> sounds of things moving upstairs, falling, or getting dragged. Never could correlate this with actual objects out of place though.



Interesting post Vaughn, we've had children's voices in this home before specifically a little girl calling "mum!" during the night both my wife and I heard this concurrently (we don't have a little girl), and I can identify with the "footsteps" we get those irregularly/periodically too then the house goes quiet for a while, paranormal researchers/investigators have equated proximity to water & high ground content of quartz & limestone to elevated episodes of activity (various theories) is your house located near anything like that?


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## Connor (Sep 14, 2010)

My position on ghosts is as follows: There have been so many reports on this matter from all over the world, and not a single one of those that have been investigated scientifically, has brought any evidence whatsoever that there is any truth to it. 
In fact most have been determinded to be fake/a misconception, followed by natural causes and only a very few have been marked as indeterminable. 
As an example, look at something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_stones It's a really amazing riddle, but I highly doubt that in the end it is concluded that poltergeists are pushing them around. 

There is a lot of stuff in this universe that we don't have the slightest clue of, but I think it's highly unlikely that any such thing as the human concept of a "ghost" exists.


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## mvyrmnd (Sep 14, 2010)

wyager said:


> The whole idea that humans are inherently incapable of understanding, or that we are not "wired" to know these things is not fact, and is not scientifically based in any way. *It is an excuse used by those who would rather give up learning than push forward.* We CAN know what happens after we die and we DO know what happens after we die (at least the scientists do-and I don't mean labcoat type scientists, I mean anyone who strictly follows logic, even above fallible personal experience). Any superstitious ideas regarding death are remnants of ancient and outmoded tradition based on a lack of understanding and supression of knowledge. The only reason that we don't perfectly understand the brain is because our machinery and mathematics are still evolving-not because we can't understand the brain.



I never said anything about giving up learning. Nor did I say we *couldn't *understand the brain. Of course we do know what happens to our physical bodies after we die, but until someone comes back from the "other side" and tells us what's going on over there, it's simply impossible for us to know if a spirit/soul exists and continues on while our body stays behind.

We are not "wired" to understand anything beyond the 4 dimensions of space/time, nor the physical properties of things smaller than we can sense without assistance. 

Your brain was not designed to travel at 100mph, and we see every day on the news the results of mammals that were only designed to travel at 10mph steering a steel can at ten times the speed their brain has evolved to comprehend. 

Technology has evolved to help us see atoms and molecules, and we can and have learned an awful lot about them, but the physics of these remains incomplete. None but a few incredibly smart individuals can even comprehend the most basic parts of Quantum Physics, and even those "in the know" know that our knowledge is dreadfully incomplete and that we may never understand why the "very small" and the "very big" behave in such different and confusing ways.

By the time we understand that, we may well have found a way to detect and "prove" the existence of ghosts and all manner of paranormal things.


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## [email protected] (Sep 14, 2010)

Connor said:


> There is a lot of stuff in this universe that we don't have the slightest clue of, but I think it's highly unlikely that any such thing as the human concept of a "ghost" exists.



Agreed the Universe is full of stuff we couldn't possible imagine or fully understand at this stage of our albeit limited "evolution" but imagine for a moment (if you will) the "Ghosts" are simply a term/name applied by human kind out of lack of understanding to their "true nature" anything IS possible :thumbsup:





mvyrmnd said:


> Technology has evolved to help us see atoms and molecules, and we can and have learned an awful lot about them, but the physics of these remains incomplete. None but a few incredibly smart individuals can even comprehend the most basic parts of Quantum Physics, and even those "in the know" know that our knowledge is dreadfully incomplete and that we may never understand why the "very small" and the "very big" behave in such different and confusing ways.
> 
> By the time we understand that, we may well have found a way to detect and "prove" the existence of ghosts and all manner of paranormal things.



Excellent post 100% agree!  :thumbsup:


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## wyager (Sep 14, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> I'm not, I'm trying to see how science can explain such anomalies, I'd hardly call the First Law Of Thermodynamics "pseudo science" either
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do me a favor and learn how inductors and electromagnets work. 





When the current passed through a wire ceases, what do you think happens to the magnetic field? It sure as heck doesn't just stay there (or turn in to a spirit ). It collapses. The energy collapses back in to the conductor (in this case the brain) and then gets spent through heat or movement or whatever. All of the energy after death is accounted for, scientists might actually believe in ghosts if there was an energy discrepancy between a living and dead body, don't you think?

Also, any russian experiments in to pseudoscience stopped when they all came back with negative results. A lot more money was spent on drug research. Just because something is experimented with does not make it any more legitimate.




mvyrmnd said:


> 1.but until someone comes back from the "other side" and tells us what's going on over there, it's simply impossible for us to know if a spirit/soul exists and continues on while our body stays behind.
> 
> 2.We are not "wired" to understand anything beyond the 4 dimensions of space/time, nor the physical properties of things smaller than we can sense without assistance.
> 
> ...



1.This is exactly like saying "Until someone comes back from Narnia, we have no way of disproving its existence." 

2.We don't need to understand any more dimensions to comprehend death. It's incredibly simple, in fact, but some people just tend to romanticize about it because it makes them feel better.

3.Humans are designed to do precisely this-a nice thing about a creature as advanced as ourselves is extreme environmental flexibility. No evolution required.

4.Physics may always be incomplete, but it won't be long until we have complete mastery of everything we know now.

5.We already understand enough to DISprove ghosts.


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## OCD (Sep 14, 2010)

wyager said:


> The title of the thread is "Do you believe in ghosts/poltergeists?". Both sides are allowed to support their opinion, and relevant information.



Well, if you mean by "both sides", you really mean yourself, then I guess you're right.

It seems that you are the only one than won't let this thread get back on topic at the urging of others.

You've said that you don't believe and gave some reasons why. That's good enough. You can quit  now.


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## unclevit (Sep 14, 2010)

In my country, we do believe in Ghosts and Spirits. For myself, I used to do deep jungle huntings and been through a lot of rain forest jungles for days or weeks. Seen many spirits both daytime and nighttime. Yes, I am a firm believer in Ghosts and Spirits


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## wyager (Sep 14, 2010)

OCD said:


> Well, if you mean by "both sides", you really mean yourself, then I guess you're right.
> 
> It seems that you are the only one than won't let this thread get back on topic at the urging of others.
> 
> You've said that you don't believe and gave some reasons why. That's good enough. You can quit  now.



I'm the only one who's sticking around-everyone else I know on this forum who has a respectable scientific knowledge is either keeping quiet on these issues or didn't post in the thread in the first place knowing it would be loaded full of BS. Probably a smarter option, in retrospect. I just can't bear to see people ignoring everything we've learned in the past 200 years (and longer, I suppose) about the world. I don't think it's good enough when we still have people following million year old superstitions in the face of real science :shrug:

I first posted that I didn't believe in ghosts and a simple explanation why-this was then contested. That's how debate works, it goes back and forth. Just because you don't like my opinion or can't contest it doesn't give you the right to say I shouldn't be expressing it. What I'm saying is the farthest thing from off topic, it is perfectly on point.


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## Federal LG (Sep 14, 2010)

I don´t believe in "ghosts" or "poltergeists" exactly. I do believe in "spirits".

I believe that your spirit is immortal. Your body will stop working (death), but your spirit will continue to live. It´s not creepy or something like that. It´s the same person (individual) that he was while living, but now in another reality.

My religion is called "*Spiritism*".

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritism

I study Spiritism since I was 10 years old (in 1988). I had several experiences in the last 20 years that proved me the existence of spirits. They´re still existing, with the same identity, intelligence and memories, but just in another reality.

:thumbsup:


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## Federal LG (Sep 14, 2010)

wyager said:


> I'm the only one who's sticking around-everyone else I know on this forum who has a respectable scientific knowledge is either keeping quiet on these issues or didn't post in the thread in the first place knowing it would be loaded full of BS. Probably a smarter option, in retrospect. I just can't bear to see people ignoring everything we've learned in the past 200 years (and longer, I suppose) about the world. I don't think it's good enough when we still have people following million year old superstitions in the face of real science :shrug:
> 
> I first posted that I didn't believe in ghosts and a simple explanation why-this was then contested. That's how debate works, it goes back and forth. Just because you don't like my opinion or can't contest it doesn't give you the right to say I shouldn't be expressing it. What I'm saying is the farthest thing from off topic, it is perfectly on point.



Yeah... real science is extremely important. Maybe if we have a world famous scientist or someone like that working to prove (in a scientific method) the existence of ghosts, things would be different... :shrug:


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## wyager (Sep 15, 2010)

Federal LG said:


> Yeah... real science is extremely important. Maybe if we have a world famous scientist or someone like that working to prove (in a scientific method) the existence of ghosts, things would be different... :shrug:



Maybe if a scientist worked to prove the existence of Narnia, things would be different. Why would someone try to apply the scientific method to something which is not supported by the scientific method?


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## Imon (Sep 15, 2010)

wyager said:


> I'm the only one who's sticking around-everyone else I know on this forum who has a respectable scientific knowledge is either keeping quiet on these issues or didn't post in the thread in the first place knowing it would be loaded full of BS. Probably a smarter option, in retrospect. I just can't bear to see people ignoring everything we've learned in the past 200 years (and longer, I suppose) about the world. I don't think it's good enough when we still have people following million year old superstitions in the face of real science :shrug:
> 
> I first posted that I didn't believe in ghosts and a simple explanation why-this was then contested. That's how debate works, it goes back and forth. Just because you don't like my opinion or can't contest it doesn't give you the right to say I shouldn't be expressing it. What I'm saying is the farthest thing from off topic, it is perfectly on point.



I've actually enjoyed reading the back and forth in this thread. I suspect I'll continue to interject my thoughts from time to time as the topic becomes relevant ... or not.
Still, I feel that no one will have their mind changed on the issue, which is unfortunate, at least from the skeptical point of view.
And because I have never heard a sound explanation of how a "spirit" or "soul" can exist within the bounds of physical law I will have to call BS on the issue of ghosts too - until, doubtfully, any hard evidence arises.


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## ebow86 (Sep 15, 2010)

I have been fascinated with the paranormal since early childhood, and have researched the phenomenon for many years. After you do the research, see all the so called "evidence", I myself have come to the conclusion that the ghost/poltergeist phenomenon does indeed exist, however, I believe the phenomenon only exists in the minds of the individuals claiming to have the experiences and in all reality ghost and poltergeists HAVE no basis in reality. The human mind is very easily fooled and can be manipulated quite easily. Example, take a group of individuals on a tour through an old creppy house. Tell them nothing about ghosts and such. Chances are no one might have any experiences. With your next group, give a long detailed account as to all the ghostly apparitions that have been sighted and such. With that preconcived notion going in, the human mind is very easily fooled and chances are somebody is going to experience or see something. 

Humans have been researching the phenomenon for quite some time now and all that has been provided in terms of "evidence" are worthless eyewitness testimonies, blurry photograpghs, and other anecdotal evidence. Nothing that has been provided would stand up in the world of science. Anyone claiming otherwise is making an extrodonary claim that can not be proven, and in most cases easily disproven.


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## Federal LG (Sep 15, 2010)

wyager said:


> Maybe if a scientist worked to prove the existence of Narnia, things would be different. Why would someone try to apply the scientific method to something which is not supported by the scientific method?



Respectfully, you are mistaken, because it was already done, with surprising results. :nana:

I should suggest you to read *ALL* the works of:

*sir William Crookes* (chemist and physicist of the Royal Society),
*Alfred Russell Wallace* (naturalist, geographer, anthropologist and biologist),
*Lord Rayleigh*,
*William James*, 
*Nicolas Camille Flammarion* (astronomer), 
*Franz Anton Mesmer* (physicist), 
*Léon Denis* (philosopher and researcher), 
*Emanuel Swedenborg* (scientist and philosopher ), 
*Johannes Greber*, 
*Ernesto Bozzano*, 
*sir Oliver Lodge* (physicist - creator of the wireless telegraphy), 
*Allan Kardec* (teacher and educator),
and many others...

Open-minded people who applied the scientific method and proved the real existence of what they were researching. Please, read all the works. It will take some years to finish them all, but I can guarantee you´ll not regret. 

You just need time and dedication. At least you´ll have more data to prove your point of view. :thumbsup:


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## sabre7 (Sep 15, 2010)

wyager said:


> I'm the only one who's sticking around-everyone else I know on this forum who has a respectable scientific knowledge is either keeping quiet on these issues or didn't post in the thread in the first place knowing it would be loaded full of BS. Probably a smarter option, in retrospect. I just can't bear to see people ignoring everything we've learned in the past 200 years (and longer, I suppose) about the world. I don't think it's good enough when we still have people following million year old superstitions in the face of real science :shrug:
> 
> I first posted that I didn't believe in ghosts and a simple explanation why-this was then contested. That's how debate works, it goes back and forth. Just because you don't like my opinion or can't contest it doesn't give you the right to say I shouldn't be expressing it. What I'm saying is the farthest thing from off topic, it is perfectly on point.



 :toilet:


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## Federal LG (Sep 15, 2010)




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## Federal LG (Sep 15, 2010)

ebow86 said:


> Humans have been researching the phenomenon for quite some time now and all that has been provided in terms of "evidence" are worthless eyewitness testimonies, blurry photograpghs, and other anecdotal evidence. Nothing that has been provided would stand up in the world of science. Anyone claiming otherwise is making an extrodonary claim that can not be proven, and in most cases easily disproven.



Please, take a look in my post #183.

You´ll be surprised with the works (and results) of those scientists...

(And this is my last post in this thread, because I truly believe this kind of knowledge cannot be forced into someone. Only suggested...)

Peace!


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## mvyrmnd (Sep 15, 2010)

It would seem to me that the disbelievers in this thread rely on the argument that Ghosts/Spirits can't be proven (with our current scientific knowledge) therefore they don't exist.

My argument is *not* that Ghosts/Spirits do exist, but that we are currently unable to prove one way or the other.

Our current science says no, but that does not rule out the possibility of future science or technologies saying yes.

Remember: is was only in the 1940's and 50's that people, and science, believe that cigarettes were not only not bad for you, but were actually *good* for your health.

We are *ALWAYS *disproving science of the past as we come up with new science.

Using the fact that we can't prove such things with current science to deny somethings existence is just naive. _Just because we can't prove something exists *does not *prove that it doesn't._


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## [email protected] (Sep 15, 2010)

wyager said:


> Do me a favor and learn how inductors and electromagnets work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmmmm... how rude, so much for attacking the post and not the poster, changing tactic when the going gets tough eh? 

I completely understand that when the power source is cut to the EM field it collapses, perhaps you just didn't read my post, I was asking what happened to the Human "power source" that feeds the EM field (during life) at the point of death... your suggestion that it gets spent through movement, heat OR whatever sounds like you're attempting to "waffle" your way through on that one, I could respect a genuine "I'm not sure of what happens exactly" answer, however waffling on in an attempt to use assumptions (ie. whatever) bodes negatively for your contribution 

FWIW... the body actually reduces heat and movement subsides during the "dying process" 


Have scientist actually looked for an energy discrepancy between living and dead? I'm don't know but I do know of MacDougall who tried inconclusively (with poor scientific methodology) to prove we lose approximately 21 grams at the point of death, but how could you seriously do any large scale experiment on the dying individuals without denying them a dignified death? :thinking:






wyager said:


> I first posted that I didn't believe in ghosts and a simple explanation why-this was then contested. That's how debate works, it goes back and forth. Just because you don't like my opinion or can't contest it doesn't give you the right to say I shouldn't be expressing it. What I'm saying is the farthest thing from off topic, it is perfectly on point.



Fair enough you don't believe... moving on, NEXT!


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## Mags (Sep 15, 2010)

Until someone gets back from "Narnia", I dont think we can say that the corporeal world and supernatural beings don't exist.


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## Flying Turtle (Sep 15, 2010)

Walked into the bathroom here last night and noticed about six feet of toilet paper unrolled on the floor. My wife might be a bit sloppy, but she wouldn't leave it like this. Could it be the "Ghost Cat"?

Applying the scientific method I determined the weight of the 3-ply was enough to overcome the rolling resistance of a mostly depleted roll.

That trickster Gravity almost had me fooled. :nana:


Geoff


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## PSEUDOSENTIENT (Sep 15, 2010)

Federal LG said:


> Respectfully, you are mistaken, because it was already done, with surprising results. :nana:
> 
> I should suggest you to read *ALL* the works of:
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for this list... I have copied/pasted it to another doc. I read quite a bit and I will definitely take a look at least at this group after I have finished the book Im currently reading.


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## h22 (Sep 15, 2010)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> No.
> 
> I'm disappointed in the current poll results - only 55%, including myself, have said "No." Do you guys believe in witches, prophets, and Jabba the Hutt as well?
> 
> I sometimes tell myself that I really do believe in Spider-Man (the very embodiment of awesomeness), but it's just wishful thinking.



Well, no on the witches, and jabba, "prophets" is a broad term that could include witch doctors and such, however, when used to describe those who might predict things, I have to give that a nod, myself having a personal, albeit very plain and unexciting experience with it myself. 

As far a ghosts, I also have to say yes. Even though I am a rational and analytical person by nature. I have had a few "experiances" and have known several people who have also had them. And most of these are very sober, serious types who would rather not ever admit it. 

That stupid show on TV, and those "phsycics" are a joke IMO though!

So lump me in with the moon bats....

How this topic got on a flashlight forum?!


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## flatline (Sep 15, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Have scientist actually looked for an energy discrepancy between living and dead? I'm don't know but I do know of MacDougall who tried inconclusively (with poor scientific methodology) to prove we lose approximately 21 grams at the point of death, but how could you seriously do any large scale experiment on the dying individuals without denying them a dignified death? :thinking:



Easy. Do tests on rodents. Or horses. Or cows. Or chickens.

Unless you have compelling reason to believe that only humans have something "special", then any creature whose death can be caused in a controlled environment should be fine.

The whole 21 grams thing is funny to me. If some attribute of the "spirit" (or whatever is posited to exist beyond the physical) is so easily measured, then how could any tests be "inconclusive"? Seriously, put an animal in an airtight container. Weigh the container. Wait for animal to suffocate (or, preferably, have some other means to insure it's death as humanely as possible (radioactively triggered poison?)). Then weigh the container again. If you get some value other than the starting weight, then you've got a conclusive test result. If you have high precision instruments, you may need to insulate the container or put it in a temperature controlled environment so that no heat enters or escapes the container. 

The experimentalists who had "inconclusive" results were either inept, didn't have suitable equipment to perform a meaningful test (a scale and some tupperware?), or were unhappy with their results and so lied about it.

Oh, and what about animals who weigh less than 21 grams to start with?

--flatline


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## mudman cj (Sep 15, 2010)

flatline said:


> Oh, and what about animals who weigh less than 21 grams to start with?



Their weight would then become negative, right?


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## Flying Turtle (Sep 15, 2010)

The long list of scientists and philosophers is impressive, and surely their works are interesting reading. However, their research and thinking is from the 19th century or earlier. Show me some modern, well respected scientists who believe in the supernatural, and can offer some valid proof.

Still skeptical

Geoff


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## h22 (Sep 15, 2010)

Ok, after glancing over a few posts, I am compelled to tell my "spooky" story..

I was in high school, and looking to get a job over the summer. I was stressing out about it a bit as I really wanted to find a job in an auto shop that would allow me to learn how to mechanic (not just sweep floors) and pay a good rate. 

One night i had a seemingly normal dream, My father and I went to a shop to try and get a job, and as my dad talked to the owner, i looked over the shop. I was confused, because the shop was very strange, it was just a large roof, with no walls, and the mechanics tool boxes were lined up in the middle of the room, and the cars would pull through on either side of the tool boxes. No work benches, no hoists, but two lanes for cars to pull through and little room in between that was occupied by the tool boxes and machines. Well, in the dream i got the job, and it payed well. But i remembered the dream long after it happened because it was such a strange layout for an auto repair shop. 

Weeks later, I found an add in the paper, a tire shop wanted to hire a mechanic. My step mom drove me to the shop, witch was in a part of town i had never even been close to. As we pulled up to the place i got a view of the outside of the building,and i just sat there in the car confounded. I looked at my step mom and said "I had a dream about this place" she just looked at me. I got out and walked around to get a better view, and to my astonishment, there it was, almost exactly as i had dreamed it. The part of the shop i thought was so strange made sense, that was where they put tires on. The tool boxes and machines were all there, as were the two lanes on either side. it was open sided. It was the place i had dreamed about.
I did get the job, but not the pay i had dreamed about though!

I always remembered hearing about people who had dreams about plane crashes and natural disasters and such, I always thought they were just freaks wanting attention. But after sitting there seeing in reality a place i dreamed about, I realized that there is more going on in this world that what we can see taste or touch. 

I have been mad every since that i can't seem to dream about winning the lottery though.

Those snoody scientists should realize that "science" is as relative as anything. just as scientists of today look back and laugh at the consept that the earth was flat, or the center of the universe, scientists thousands of years from now will look back and laugh at what you hold "true" today. 

I echo the statement, one experiance is worth a lifetime of wondering.


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## wyager (Sep 15, 2010)

[email protected]strom said:


> I completely understand that when the power source is cut to the EM field it collapses, perhaps you just didn't read my post, I was asking what happened to the Human "power source" that feeds the EM field (during life) at the point of death... your suggestion that it gets spent through movement, heat OR whatever sounds like you're attempting to "waffle" your way through on that one, I could respect a genuine "I'm not sure of what happens exactly" answer, however waffling on in an attempt to use assumptions (ie. whatever) bodes negatively for your contribution
> 
> FWIW... the body actually reduces heat and movement subsides during the "dying process"
> 
> ...



OK, let's try this this way-do you know how the human body stores and uses energy? Individual cells transform sugar in to NADPH and ATP. The ATP (adenosine triphosphate) is then stripped of a phosphorous atom and an electron is released. This electron can then either perform tasks inside the cell or interact with other parts of the body. This transfer of electrons generates a magnetic field. Once the transfer of electrons stops, ie the body does not have any more usable ATP reserves (cell death) the magnetic field goes away. 

Also, plenty of alchemists and other scientists in times where they had an excuse to believe superstition like ghosts performed experiments with the release of "life energy" from dead animals. Of course, these experiments produced no results to suggest that anything changed during death, and modern scientists probably won't waste their time futher following superstitious folly.



Mags said:


> Until someone gets back from "Narnia", I dont think we can say that the corporeal world and supernatural beings don't exist.



So you are saying that because narnia has not been visited, it cannot be proven to not exist? Ridiculous. Apparently most schools don't teach about deductive reasoning.




h22 said:


> Those snoody scientists should realize that "science" is as relative as anything. just as scientists of today look back and laugh at the consept that the earth was flat, or the center of the universe, scientists thousands of years from now will look back and laugh at what you hold "true" today.



Science is not relative. The idea that the earth was flat, the center of the universe, etc. were all by-products of religion. Science is not relative, and does not care about fallible personal experiences. And scientists today laugh at the idea of ghosts-you are still following a tradition that is probably as old as man. We have already outgrown such beliefs, some people just refuse to let things be explained rationally. If I take a bunch of lysergic acid, and I see a dead person talking to me, does that mean I should believe in ghosts?


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## mvyrmnd (Sep 15, 2010)

wyager said:


> So you are saying that because narnia has not been visited, it cannot be proven to not exist? Ridiculous. Apparently most schools don't teach about deductive reasoning.



Hang on a sec...



mvyrmnd said:


> Using the fact that we can't prove such things with current science to deny somethings existence is just naive. _Just because we can't prove something exists *does not *prove that it doesn't._





Mags said:


> Until someone gets back from "Narnia", I dont think we can say that the corporeal world and supernatural beings don't exist.



Didn't we just say the same thing? Mags gets shot down because he mentions Narnia? I see no flaw in his reasoning (except I think he means non-corporeal).



wyager said:


> Science is not relative. The idea that the earth was flat, the center of the universe, etc. were all by-products of religion. Science is not relative, and does not care about fallible personal experiences. And scientists today laugh at the idea of ghosts-you are still following a tradition that is probably as old as man. We have already outgrown such beliefs, some people just refuse to let things be explained rationally. If I take a bunch of lysergic acid, and I see a dead person talking to me, does that mean I should believe in ghosts?



You are correct. Science is not relative. It's not absolute, or even correct some of the time, either. Shutting your eyes to future possibilities based on our current knowledge is erroneous.


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## wyager (Sep 15, 2010)

mvyrmnd said:


> Hang on a sec...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No. As far as I can tell, both of you are saying that for some reason or another, we CANNOT prove that ghosts don't exist.

I am saying that we CAN prove that ghosts don't exist. (and we have done so)

If you recall, you said various things like
"but until someone comes back from the "other side" and tells us what's going on over there, it's simply impossible for us to know if a spirit/soul exists and continues on while our body stays behind."

This is a logical fallacy. That is what I was contesting.




mvyrmnd said:


> You are correct. Science is not relative. It's not absolute, or even correct some of the time, either. Shutting your eyes to future possibilities based on our current knowledge is erroneous.


Science is, indeed, absolute. If it is incorrect and stated as a fact, it is not science. We are the first group of humans not completely hindered by religious suppression, and we are also the first group of humans with raw, unadulterated, and fast logical and mathematical processing capability (computers). This means that we are among the first people to have access to true science.


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## mvyrmnd (Sep 15, 2010)

It would seem you need to study up on inductive logic.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction

The *problem of induction* is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:


generalizing about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or
presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold). Hume called this the Principle of Uniformity of Nature.
 *The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. *


Your argument is exactly as described here. Your argument is inductive.

"Because we have never empirically proven the existence of ghosts, they cannot exist"

My argument, as I have stated before, is "Just because we haven't proven they exist, doesn't prove that they don't" That is perfectly sound logic (if not flawed English)

Ghosts are your Black Swan.


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## mudman cj (Sep 15, 2010)

Which leads to another unanswered question: how has science proven that ghosts don't exist? If something cannot be measured or otherwise observed repeatedly does that prove it does not exist? Did quarks not exist before science was able to measure their effects?


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## Imon (Sep 15, 2010)

mvyrmnd said:


> "Because we have never empirically seen a ghost, they cannot exist"



Except for the last part, this seems to be a more common sense approach. I'm not sure I want to get into arguing about absolutes here (like some people). Quite honestly though, the stance wyager has taken is not illogical at all because, and I'm sure you'd agree mvyrmnd, there is a critical lack of empirical evidence about the existence of ghosts. Those who believe in ghosts have the burden of proof to overcome the skepticism people like wyager and I have about this issue. 
The same standards apply in the world of science. In the first half of the 20th century the idea of large "plates" shifting around on the surface of the Earth was largely dismissed as rubbish but proponents of the theory amassed enough evidence for it to become a sound geological theory.
I wouldn't say that ghosts can never exists, just that I don't believe in them and honestly, I don't think others should either, but then again, we all have different life experiences.


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## [email protected] (Sep 15, 2010)

wyager said:


> OK, let's try this this way-do you know how the human body stores and uses energy? Individual cells transform sugar in to NADPH and ATP. The ATP (adenosine triphosphate) is then stripped of a phosphorous atom and an electron is released. This electron can then either perform tasks inside the cell or interact with other parts of the body. This transfer of electrons generates a magnetic field. Once the transfer of electrons stops, ie the body does not have any more usable ATP reserves (cell death) the magnetic field goes away.



Ah... see that was much better than a "whatever" response wasn't it?


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## mvyrmnd (Sep 15, 2010)

Imon said:


> Except for the last part, this seems to be a more common sense approach. I'm not sure I want to get into arguing about absolutes here (like some people). Quite honestly though, the stance wyager has taken is not illogical at all because, and I'm sure you'd agree mvyrmnd, there is a critical lack of empirical evidence about the existence of ghosts. Those who believe in ghosts have the burden of proof to overcome the skepticism people like wyager and I have about this issue.
> The same standards apply in the world of science. In the first half of the 20th century the idea of large "plates" shifting around on the surface of the Earth was largely dismissed as rubbish but proponents of the theory amassed enough evidence for it to become a sound geological theory.
> I wouldn't say that ghosts can never exists, just that I don't believe in them and honestly, I don't think others should either, but then again, we all have different life experiences.



I agree entirely, however wyager's argument doesn't allow for any future evidence to come into play.

Yes the burden of proof in on the "believers". 

My point is that we currently have no way of proving the existence of ghosts. That does not mean they don't or can't exist. 

wyager's point is that since we haven't proven their existence yet, they simply cannot be.

It would be very much easier to simply believe at this point that ghosts don't exist, but that would be a cop out. For the record, I don't actually believe in ghosts. I am, however, open to the possibility of their existence, given sufficient proof, which may or may not come in time with advances in technology.


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## PhotonWrangler (Sep 15, 2010)

mvyrmnd said:


> ...I am, however, open to the possibility of their existence, given sufficient proof, which may or may not come in time with advances in technology.


 
I have to agree here. We don't know what we don't know. A long time ago nobody knew that x-rays or gamma rays existed. We certainly didn't have any means of detecting them back then, so any argument for or against their existence would have been a tough one to prove. I do suspect that there are forces and energies that we don't understand yet. Science is still learning what goes on inside of a black hole, for instance, and whatever they find out could have a significant impact on our understanding of gravity, light and matter.

I can't prove that ghosts exist or don't exist, and for now I have to accept that. Whether they really exist in the manner that folklore depicts them could be entirely different from what is actually going on, i.e. there could simply be unintelligent and yet undiscovered forces that are acting upon our senses, electromagnetism notwithstanding. Personally I'm more interested in why this stuff happens than anything else.


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## Imon (Sep 15, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Ah... see that was much better than a whatever response wasn't it?
> 
> Okay let's "run with this" a little further shall we?
> 
> The Bodies EM field ends because the cell's creating the electrical energy within our body die OR cease functioning, thus if the bodies' cells have ceased to function how is it possible that hair follicles & nails (Keratin) continue to grow after death? obviously some level of cell activity remains no? :thinking:



I have heard of hair and nails growing after death. It is quite sensationalized. If you actually read into it - it's nothing special.




mvyrmnd said:


> It would be very much easier to simply believe at this point that ghosts don't exist, but that would be a cop out.



Forgive me for being very upfront about this issue but I don't believe you actually believe what you are saying. Yes, it_ *is*_ "easier" to believe ghost don't exist - not because it's a easy cop out, but because it's just plain silly. Long ago many different cultures from societies that had no connections to each other developed the concept of dragons and other similar creatures. Today we can say with great certainty that only a very small minority of people actually believe in dragons. Strange that ghosts and other worldly things continue to have a strong following in many societies around the world. I would blame religion in detail but I don't want this debate to be any more combustible.


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## OCD (Sep 15, 2010)

Post deleted....thread has run into the ditch. :shakehead


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## PL4YED (Sep 15, 2010)

110% real


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## mvyrmnd (Sep 15, 2010)

Imon said:


> Long ago many different cultures from societies that had no connections to each other developed the concept of dragons and other similar creatures. Today we can say with great certainty that only a very small minority of people actually believe in dragons. Strange that ghosts and other worldly things continue to have a strong following in many societies around the world. I would blame religion in detail but I don't want this debate to become combustive.



<OFFTOPIC>
This is actually a slightly different argument, however is is still terribly interesting.

I would not ordinarily quote Cracked.com as a reputable source of information, but they have enough Wikipedia links to follow up on if you want the whole truth.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18649_5-ridiculous-ancient-beliefs-that-turned-out-to-be-true.html

Have a look at number 3 in the list - Creation

_"So, the ancient Egyptians told their kids, "A lotus flower arose from the sea by way of an explosive interaction as a bud. Then the lotus flower opens and Khepri emerges." (Khepri being a deity who gives birth to creation.) Meanwhile, thousands of miles way, some Chinese parent was telling his kid that, "A cosmic egg appeared in the chaos by way of 18,000 years of the chaos coalescing. Then the cosmic egg cracks and P'an-Ku emerges." Again, P'an-Ku is a being who creates the universe.__

And of course, we have the Genesis account of the universe being formless and empty, then God speaking a word that brings forth light and matter and life.
What's remarkable is how similar these universal creation myths are, be they Chinese, Egyptian, Hindu, Finnish or otherwise. And, whether it is a golden womb, a cosmic egg or a flower blossom, it's all generally the same idea, you just plug in the words:

In the beginning, there was nothing but chaos, often depicted by a vast sea. Then, suddenly, a (noun) (arose from/appeared in) the (sea/chaos/nothingness) by way of (some event or lack thereof). Then the (same noun) (erupts/cracks/opens) and (a deity/creation) emerges."_
​


How is it that so many cultures, that were not capable of communicating with each other, come up with such similar stories - that even our most modern science still reflects in some way?

</OFFTOPIC>


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## wyager (Sep 15, 2010)

mvyrmnd said:


> Your argument is exactly as described here. Your argument is inductive.
> 
> "Because we have never empirically proven the existence of ghosts, they cannot exist"



Wrong... totally wrong.... My argument has nothing to due with the lack of observance of ghosts. My argument is based on the realities of electromagnetism, metabolism, and physics, which apparently many of you fail miserably to understand.



mudman cj said:


> Which leads to another unanswered question: how has science proven that ghosts don't exist? If something cannot be measured or otherwise observed repeatedly does that prove it does not exist? Did quarks not exist before science was able to measure their effects?



Here's the thing-quarks could not be disproven by science. They could not be proven, and they could not be disproven. Ghosts can not be proven and they CAN be disproven. Give me any idea of what you think a "ghost" is and I can eliminate it logically. 



mvyrmnd said:


> I agree entirely, however wyager's argument doesn't allow for any future evidence to come into play.
> 
> 
> wyager's point is that since we haven't proven their existence yet, they simply cannot be.



WRONG! My point is that ghosts can be empirically DISproven. Deductive reasoning allows us to DISprove ghosts, regardless of experience. If something that is not experienced cannot be disproven, how would we disprove anything? I could claim the existence of magical rainbow unicorns made out of liquid uranium and you would have to believe me because you can't disprove something, only prove it, according to your "logic".



[email protected] said:


> The Bodies EM field ends because the cell's creating the electrical energy within our body die OR cease functioning, thus if the bodies' cells have ceased to function how is it possible that hair follicles & nails (Keratin) continue to grow after death? obviously some level of cell activity remains no?



Sure, ATP and NADPH reserves last for a short while. But that doesn't really change anything about ghosts...


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## mvyrmnd (Sep 15, 2010)

OK. Disprove the existence of ghosts for me.

Show me the science.


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## wyager (Sep 15, 2010)

mvyrmnd said:


> OK. Disprove the existence of ghosts for me.
> 
> Show me the science.



First, give me some background. There are a bunch of different "theories" that I coud blow away, go ahead and give me one. I'll show you the science once you give me a theory. On top of that, I'm giving you the benefit of thinking that death is any more complex than a failure in a complex chemical reaction. The most obvious attack is that there is no unaccounted for loss of energy of mass after death. Thermodynamics...


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## [email protected] (Sep 15, 2010)

If the bodies cells (and ATP utilization) cease the EM field collapses and that's the end bada-bing! then how do individuals who cease to function (brain death) have memories of the effect following cessation of brain functioning? we know that stimulating the brain's "angular gyrus" will simulate an OBE (Out of Body Experience) thanks to the work of *Dr. Olaf Blanke* but that was to an active functioning brain (hooked up to probes & sensors), what about the case of *Pam Reynolds* who's brain was kept "brain dead" (current medical definition of status) for 45 minutes whilst having brain surgery being able to recall with incredible accuracy aspects of conversations (surgical staff) and procedures/equipment used during that 45 minute period? :thinking:

Keep in mind eyes are taped shut pre-operatively (after the anaesthetic takes effect) 





mudman cj said:


> Did quarks not exist before science was able to measure their effects?



Nice analogy :thumbsup:


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## Imon (Sep 15, 2010)

wyager said:


> WRONG! My point is that ghosts can be empirically DISproven. Deductive reasoning allows us to DISprove ghosts, regardless of experience. If something that is not experienced cannot be disproven, how would we disprove anything? I could claim the existence of magical rainbow unicorns made out of liquid uranium and you would have to believe me because you can't disprove something, only prove it, according to your "logic".



I think you should wait until someone here makes a scientifically disprovable claim to start disproving anything. 

Actually, now that I think about it, telling stories about "ghosts" is essentially making claims about the nature of ghosts. If you actually believe your own ghost stories then some of the people here must believe ghosts have the ability to interact with the physical world, after all people in this thread were talking about doors slamming and floors creaking. If so, are ghosts composed of atoms and molecules? Are they in a gaseous form? :laughing: If so how they do maintain their individual integrity separate from atmospheric gases?
These are all questions that believers have to answer satisfactorily to skeptics. Like I stated before, they have the burden of proof.

mvyrmnd,
The case I was making with the dragons is the case you are making with the creation story. Simply because many different societies with no communication between one another come up with similar ideas doesn't mean the ideas are true.
Truth isn't democratic and doesn't increase in credibility because a lot of people have a feeling or subjective experience or longing for something to be true. It must be proven with sound logical arguments and evidence.
And for the people who keep saying science didn't know this or that a long time ago - that is true. However, it is _very good _that there are people in the scientific community who argue a theory whether sound or not. History doesn't look kindly on those scientists who held beliefs we consider outdated but the change has been made - why is that? Because of the dedication and hard work of the person who took the time and effort to formulate a more rational and workable theory.
After all, if there was little or no criticism within the scientific community, every half-baked theory would be given fair consideration and that would be a damn shame.


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## mvyrmnd (Sep 15, 2010)

wyager said:


> First, give me some background. There are a bunch of different "theories" that I coud blow away, go ahead and give me one. I'll show you the science once you give me a theory. On top of that, I'm giving you the benefit of thinking that death is any more complex than a failure in a complex chemical reaction. The most obvious attack is that there is no unaccounted for loss of energy of mass after death. Thermodynamics...


Nope. You have stated that ghosts have been completely disproved. I want you to tell me how.

You have clearly done all the research, and have all the knowledge, since your statement is apparently undeniable.


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## AnAppleSnail (Sep 15, 2010)

I could defend wyager's position to some extent, by saying that ghosts can't exist because they seem contradictory. That is, we could declare that a thing can't exist if it must be, say, both NATURAL and UNNATURAL - logically speaking, we should be able to agree that a thing can't be both something and not-something.

But in the end, that's an appeal to "The world must be limited to what we understand today," and I hope that that's not the case. Suppose that I chose "FLOATS" AND "SINKS" above. Surely something must be visible or invisible, eh? And let's further say that I'm not tricking you: This thing will float atop and sink into the same glass of water, without any change to the object or water. Is this possible? Sure.














It helps to make another paperclip into a cradle, then carefully lower it. Soap will destroy the surface tension, so you can 'magically' make the clip sink by hiding a soap drop on your finger.

Hah ha, AppleSnail, common physics tricks, why are they important? Well they aren't really, although they're neat. But it shows that the main disagreement here isn't over what IS or ISN'T, but what words mean. Resting on surface tension isn't "Floating" in the hydrodynamic sense, where a volume of displaced fluid supports an object. But I and a dissenter could argue until we're blue in the face about whether or not that clip is "floating," and we'd get nowhere.

Here's some words that have complicated meanings. I can't think of a good way to resolve 'em, or I'd be a rich philosopher (That is, I'd have a paper, pencil, AND a trashcan).

Natural (And, by contrast, supernatural). After all, if Nature isn't "Everything in the world," then what is it? And if we encounter something, doesn't it become nature? Here we can argue over whether encountering BPA in drinking water is natural, and you can see the problems with defining "Nature." What in nature would tell h22 where he would work?

Ghost (Or poltergeist). Did a ghost, spirit, or poltergeist materialize [email protected]'s matchbox, or tell him about his dead Grandfather? I could see someone claiming that Jack is a common name, but then there's likely more to the story than just a friend named Jack. I'm not saying that an inability to make absolute categories forbids a thing form existing - it just makes it very... _interesting_ to have a friendly discussion about.

I think that any attempts to settle here, whether ghosts exist or not, will furiously circle without getting much done. I'll be spending the night in a dark tunnel later this week. I expect s'mores, a campfire of sorts, and lots of fun. We like to share true ghost stories (We share them, then re-tell to make them ridiculous or frightening as the mood strikes) - does anyone object to me sharing any from here?

Edit:


[email protected] said:


> What about the case of *Pam Reynolds* who's brain was kept "brain dead" (current medical definition of status) for 45 minutes whilst having brain surgery being able to recall with incredible accuracy aspects of conversations (surgical staff) and procedures/equipment used during that 45 minute period? :thinking:
> 
> Keep in mind eyes are taped shut pre-operatively (after the anaesthetic takes effect)



These spook me. Seriously spook'd.


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## Imon (Sep 15, 2010)

AnAppleSnail,

Your example of the paperclip and water is pretty cool but I don't think any thinking individual can be at a loss of why the paperclip sits on top of the water. 

Because oxygen is more electronegative than hydrogen, it creates a dipole moment on the water molecule causing partial positive and partial negative ends of the molecule. The high surface tension of water is directly caused by the formation of hydrogen bonds between the water molecules.


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## PSEUDOSENTIENT (Sep 15, 2010)

wyager said:


> Wrong... totally wrong.... My argument has nothing to due with the lack of observance of ghosts. My argument is based on the realities of electromagnetism, metabolism, and physics, which apparently many of you fail miserably to understand.
> 
> Here's the thing-quarks could not be disproven by science. They could not be proven, and they could not be disproven. Ghosts can not be proven and they CAN be disproven. Give me any idea of what you think a "ghost" is and I can eliminate it logically.
> 
> WRONG! My point is that ghosts can be empirically DISproven. Deductive reasoning allows us to DISprove ghosts, regardless of experience. If something that is not experienced cannot be disproven, how would we disprove anything?


 
Perhaps if you just tell us a few more times that we're idiots, we may finally realize that some experiences in our lives didn't really happen... its just that we're too soft headed to interpret reality like you do. So far its still not sinking in.


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## PSEUDOSENTIENT (Sep 15, 2010)

Imon said:


> Actually, now that I think about it, telling stories about "ghosts" is essentially making claims about the nature of ghosts. If you actually believe your own ghost stories then some of the people here must believe ghosts have the ability to interact with the physical world, after all people in this thread were talking about doors slamming and floors creaking. If so, are ghosts composed of atoms and molecules? Are they in a gaseous form? :laughing: If so how they do maintain their individual integrity separate from atmospheric gases?
> These are all questions that believers have to answer satisfactorily to skeptics. Like I stated before, they have the burden of proof.
> 
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## 3000k (Sep 15, 2010)

I believe in ghost. There is one in my house, that is all the proof I need. It also somewhat fuels my flashlight purchases.


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## flatline (Sep 15, 2010)

If ghosts exist, what are they made of and why can't ths raw ghost material be detected and analyzed? --flatline


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## mvyrmnd (Sep 15, 2010)

flatline said:


> If ghosts exist, what are they made of and why can't ths raw ghost material be detected and analyzed? --flatline



Because either:

A) they don't exist
B) we don't have the ability/technology to do it

The argument in this thread currently is whether or not A or B is correct.


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## 3000k (Sep 15, 2010)

mvyrmnd said:


> Because either:
> 
> A) they don't exist
> B) we don't have the ability/technology to do it
> ...



Or:
C) We don't want anything to do with it.


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## Imon (Sep 15, 2010)

PSEUDOSENTIENT said:


> No, we dont have to "prove" anything. There is no proof to offer beyond anecdotes. You are totally free to believe whatever you wish as far as I'm concerned. All most people did was report their experiences... they didnt offer an explanation. As for me, I have no explanation of how things like that could happen, but I know what I've seen and what I've heard, and it sure as hell wasnt mis-percieved or imagined.


 
You have to do a forward slash to end a quote. I usually just hit the quote button. 

Anyways, you say there is no proof to offer beyond anecdotes - this would never hold up in a scientific argument. It wouldn't even hold up in a court of law. Forgive me on my ignorance of all things law but I think using anecdotes to prove a theory based in physical law right is like using hearsay to win a court case.
Also, you're right about people not having to prove anything. They don't have to _but_ if they want to convince people their claims about ghosts are correct they'll have to offer some evidence. And yes, they are claims about the nature of ghosts. If you give the "evidence" of, say, a vase being knocked over as your reason to believe then obviously you believe ghosts can somehow interact with the physical world. This is empirically testable.


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## mvyrmnd (Sep 15, 2010)

3000k said:


> Or:
> C) We don't want anything to do with it.



Humans do have an incredible ability to ignore what's right in front of them....


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## Imon (Sep 15, 2010)

mvyrmnd said:


> Because either:
> 
> A) they don't exist
> B) we don't have the ability/technology to do it
> ...



Let me rephrase this for you. :naughty:

A) There is no reason to believe in ghosts due to a lack of hard evidence.
B) We don't have the ability/technology to do it.


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## flatline (Sep 15, 2010)

mvyrmnd said:


> Because either:
> 
> A) they don't exist
> B) we don't have the ability/technology to do it
> ...



A seems defensible. 

B is a cop out because it requires us to believe that human beings can perceive things that far more sensitive experimental apparatus can't without providing an explanation of why that should be so.

--flatline


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## Empath (Sep 15, 2010)

It's time to take it to the Underground. When it reaches the point that it's a Believer-Skeptic merry-go-round, it's neither productive, winnable, nor (after a few back and forth responses) contributory toward swaying the viewers toward a conclusion.

Thread closed.


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