# Sony CycleEnergy 3800mAh Ni-MH AA-cells



## Martin (Apr 29, 2007)

A week ago, I received 2 packs of the amazing Sony 3800mAh AA NiMH cells:














I actually didn't believe someone could make an AA NiMH cell with 3800mAh capacity, so I put the CBA II to good use:

Discharge at 1A suggests cell capacities of 560mAh, 530mAh, 520mAh and 570mAh, an average of 550mAh only.






I attempt discharge at a lower current (50mA = C/14), as I suspect these super-high capacity cells have an issue with higher currents. Well, it brought the capacity up to an average of 650mAh, not anywhere near 3800mAh:





Another strange thing I noticed: Cell number 4 did not charge properly on my Ansmann Energy16 charger, neither did it on a TCM cheapy. The chargers ended the charge far to early and the cell appeared to have a very low capacity. So I trickle-charged all cells at 50mA from the bench power supply, only then they exhibit the performance shown in the first graph.

What's going on ? Are these fake cells ? Anyone come across these ?

Editing to add some numbers:

These cells are very lightweight. Comparison of cell weight:
4 pcs AA Sony CycleEnergy 3800 = 67g 
4 pcs AA Sanyo standard 2100 = 113g 
4 pcs AA Sanyo "Eneloop" 2000 = 105g 
4 pcs AA Varta "Ready2Use" 2100 = 113g 

These cells are relatively small by their dimensions:
Sony CycleEnergy 3800: Length = 49.7mm, diameter = 14.0mm 
Sanyo standard 2000: Lenght = 50.4mm, diameter = 14.2mm 
Sanyo "Eneloop" 2000: Length = 50.3mm, diameter = 14.2mm 
Varta "Ready2Use" 2100: Length = 50.5mm, diameter = 14.3mm


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## Nell (Apr 29, 2007)

Shift this post to Flashlight Electronics-Batteries Included.

I didn't think the cell capacity had reached much beyond 3000mAh, if that , much less 3800mAh. I'm no expert.

More experts there.


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## Martin (Apr 29, 2007)

How to shift a post ?


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## PhantomPhoton (Apr 29, 2007)

Mod will hopefully come by and move this thread. Don't sweat it. 

Thanks for the testing. Just by initial appearances these look like they're fakes with false, lying labels. Especially based on the weight tha t you gave.
What charger/ method did you use to charge these? I doubt theres an error there as it seems you have a good idea of what you're doing anyway, but that's the only thing I can think of that might throw off the results of these are "genuine."


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## havand (Apr 29, 2007)

PhantomPhoton said:


> Mod will hopefully come by and move this thread. Don't sweat it.
> 
> Thanks for the testing. Just by initial appearances these look like they're fakes with false, lying labels. Especially based on the weight tha t you gave.
> What charger/ method did you use to charge these? I doubt theres an error there as it seems you have a good idea of what you're doing anyway, but that's the only thing I can think of that might throw off the results of these are "genuine."



Could it be possible they're Ni-Cad with weight like that? (If so, they're guaranteed fake and not even NIMH at that!)


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## HiltiHome (Apr 29, 2007)

Don't know nothing about Sony 3800 cells...
possibly a fake....

Did you calibrate your measuring equipment with a well know cell like Sanyo eneloop?

Where did you get the cells from ?

April 1. has gone, right?


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## FlashCrazy (Apr 29, 2007)

That's funny stuff! My Harbor Freight $3.99 pack of four AAA NiMH's put out more than these, even at the 1A discharge rate.

Definitely fake, no doubt. What country did you purchase them from?


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## ckthorp (Apr 29, 2007)

You'll also note that the fakers can't do math. 10% more than 3750 mAh would be 4125 mAh, not the 3800 mAh indicated on the back of the package...


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## Martin (Apr 29, 2007)

My equipment is calibrated, confimed by known good Sanyo cells.
After I realize my charges don't detect end of charge of these cells properly, I top them up by a day of 50mA trickle-charge.
I also feel they are NiCD, from looking at the capacity.
Came across these on German EBAY, asked the seller if this can be true, he wasn't sure and immediately ended the auction. He offered to send me a couple of them to test them, now this is the result.
However, these cells and their packing look perfect. Don't see no signs of an imitation, but could be it's just very well done.


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## bridgman (Apr 29, 2007)

NH-AA-B2C seems to be a valid Sony product code for a discontinued 2100 mAH cell. If you look closely at the label on the front the "38" seems to be in a different font from the "00".

Did anyone notice the graphics on the back showing how 3800 mAH is "10% greater" than 3750 mAH ?


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## FlashCrazy (Apr 29, 2007)

ckthorp said:


> You'll also note that the fakers can't do math. 10% more than 3750 mAh would be 4125 mAh, not the 3800 mAh indicated on the back of the package...


 
:lolsign: I noticed that too! Let's see...10% of 3750 = 375, so 3750 + 375 = ummm...3800...yeah, that's it...print the packaging and get 'em on the market!


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## SilverFox (Apr 29, 2007)

They could be AAA cells in an AA package...

AAA cells are around 13 g each.

Tom


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## paulr (Apr 29, 2007)

They are fake cells, there's a lot of them around. http://google.com/search?q=fake+sony+nimh gets lots of hits.


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## boef800 (Apr 29, 2007)

hmm,yummyyummy.sounds like one heck of a cell:rock::naughty::lolsign:


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## hank (Apr 29, 2007)

And for a long time. Look at the spelling on this older fake package: "Alksline"
http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/attachment.php?id=5518

That's from Tue Oct 5th, 2004

Other examples further in the thread, including fake charger, also faked Sony. Lots of crap.


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## nanotech17 (Apr 29, 2007)

I have 16 of these and all of them are USELESS 
I ask for refund the buyer just silent until today.
All i can say is this cell are FAKE !
Check or contact Sony Corp to find out.


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## ckthorp (Apr 30, 2007)

EDIT: bad information removed. See post 22.


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## Martin (Apr 30, 2007)

nanotech17 said:


> ..Check or contact Sony Corp to find out.


This is actually what the seller did after I expressed doubt abt these cells. Reportedly Sony Germany replied that they cannot help because this product is not marketed by Sony Germany.


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## Handlobraesing (Apr 30, 2007)

I bet they came from the People's Republic of China


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## SoundMix (Apr 30, 2007)

I can't believe how good the the packaging looks on these fakes. Makes me want to look at all items a bit closer.


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## CM (Apr 30, 2007)

Martin said:


> This is actually what the seller did after I expressed doubt abt these cells. Reportedly Sony Germany replied that they cannot help because this product is not marketed by Sony Germany.



They need to figure out how to help. It's in their best interest to squash these fakes. News travels. High capacity Sony NiMH are fakes.


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## SilverFox (Apr 30, 2007)

Hello Ckthorp,

I think you need to go back and re read your information on the differences between NiCd and NiMh charging...

The information you gave is not correct.

NiCd cells exhibit a greater voltage drop at then end of the charge. A typical value for charging NiCd cells is to terminate when the voltage drops 10 mV per cell.

With NiMh cells the signal is weaker. A typical termination value for NiMh cells is to stop when the voltage drops 3-5 mV per cell.

Both chemistries can be terminated on peak voltage, or zero delta V.

If you charge a NiCd cell on a NiMh charger, it doesn't quite get fully charged, but it will charge up just fine.

If you charge a NiMh cell on a NiCd charger, it gets overcharged before the charge terminates. The cell will heat up and you will lose cycle life. Cell overheating is the main reason you are instructed not to charge a NiMh cell with a NiCd charger. 

Tom


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## hank (Apr 30, 2007)

Does anyone have a pointer to a site collecting info on fake products, for people worldwide?

A CounterForgeryForum, along the lines of CPF, would become an invaluable place to check for bogosity.

Sigh, of course it'd probably also be a school for how to fake things better, come to think of it. 

A little Google searching:

"... The latest statistics by the European Union reveal that five percent of the fake commodities seized by European customs in 2005 came from Switzerland. This shows that Switzerland ranks second among those countries whence fake commodities originate, coming only behind China and preceding the United Arab Emirates. ...

"... We are talking about fake medicaments and machine parts, commodities we rely on. But how can we rely on something that has not undergone proper scrutiny? How can something be relied on if in producing such products standards on safety and hygiene are not observed?"
http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/ejpd/en/home/dokumentation/red/2007/2007-01-16.html


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## ckthorp (Apr 30, 2007)

Tom --

Thanks for the correction. It looks like the source I read all those years ago was misinformed. I just went back and read the Energizer application manual. I'll take this as another lesson to always read the proper literature.
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf

--Chris


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## LGCubana (Apr 30, 2007)

I have no idea to the relevance, but my Sony 2700mAh Ni-MH
have the same code on them. 

NH-AA HR15/51 1.2V


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## ampdude (Apr 30, 2007)

I wish they were real!!!


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## TorchBoy (Apr 30, 2007)

If it seems too good to be true it probably is. A couple of years ago a friend and I were looking for a lithium digital camera battery. Canon's "proper" battery was 570mAh, yet we found some on eBay at a claimed 1,000mAh. At only a tenth the normal price my friend was all set to place an order for several, until I explained the facts of life to him. "If Canon could make them with greater capacity that would also last the charging cycles why wouldn't they, and sell them as an option? There's money to be made there. Unfortunately they simply don't exist." Similarly for 3800mAh NiMH AA cells.

Years later, even Canon's high capacity battery is still only 720mAh.


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## VidPro (Apr 30, 2007)

SCAM, if its to good to be true, and sold on e-bay , RUN 
because they used the sony name, you can defintaly get your money back, at the least you can shut the seller down at e-bay.
its illegal, stuff that shouldnt make it through customs.


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## tebore (Apr 30, 2007)

The color of the Orange doesn't look like the "Sony" orange. And their fake math is amazing how is 3750 - 3800 a 10% difference?


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## len (May 1, 2007)

Not to be outdone by an earlier post, I found on another auction site selling Sony AA nimh cells with astonishing 5000 mah capacity! Hmm... maybe they are all 500+mah as tested by Martin.


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## TorchBoy (May 1, 2007)

I've got a "SONY" MP3 player that someone bought for me in Hong Kong. It's labeled 256 but it's actually only about 56MB, about enough for 11 songs. Perhaps like the batteries, if it had more capacity it would be really good.


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## Haz (May 1, 2007)

It's a phony alright. 

With the advances in printing and packaging. It's no longer that difficult to imitate genuine items these days. It takes a trained eye, looking for the most minor details to detect a fake item. In the past, most of the counterfeiters use poor quality packaging and printing, that can easily be detected to be a fake product. Naturally they have becoming alot smarter and spending the extra time and effort to fool the unsuspecting customer and even the more cautious buyers. Ebay has been an easy way for most of these fakes to flourish, as most sellers don't need to look at the buyer and lie to their face. It's easy to plea ignorance, despite the fact most seller who are selling fake items know all too well, that they are fake.


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## xiaowenzu (May 1, 2007)

This 'Sony' product is obviously fake. It's most likely to be copied by China. As a Chinese I am ashamed and embarrassed that China has to resort to copycat the Japanese masters.  The Japanese are probably laughing their pants off now. Lol 

Remember the old saying: "If it's too good to be true, then it probably is" 

another saying: "You get what you pay for". Remember quality costs money, and no-one can create a good product cheaply because high quality raw materials costs a lot. and they will lose profit if they sell it cheap. I NEVER buy cheap products on impulse, that's why I have never been tricked in my life. 

If you are unsure whether a product is fake or not, always buy from a reputable dealer or go directly to the company site to check for their distributors. Never buy products from ebay because you don't know what you get.


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## ckthorp (May 1, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> another saying: "You get what you pay for".


Unfortunately, some of the scammers have figured this one out. So, "too cheap to be true" is a good warning, but you should not be reassured by "it's expensive so it must be real". Just treat eBay like a casino, and make sure you know your odds before placing your bet. Though, on eBay, it is possible to come out ahead in the long run, unlike in a casino.


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## TorchBoy (May 1, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Remember the old saying: "If it's too good to be true, then it probably is"


Er, yes, I do remember, I said it just six posts before yours.  



xiaowenzu said:


> another saying: "You get what you pay for".


Arguable in the case of brand name products. Some people are quite happy paying simply for a name, and if they care for such things they probably do get what they pay for. Others of us who do not quite see the point most of the time don't get what we pay for, since the name is largely meaningless to us.



xiaowenzu said:


> Never buy products from ebay because you don't know what you get.


You may not have quite intended that the way it came out. Perhaps you meant "Never buy products from ebay *if* you don't know what you [will] get."


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## Martin (May 5, 2007)

I've completed the full set of 50mA discharge curves and edited the first post to include these curves. Cell capacity averages around 650mA, just as expected.
This pretty much concludes the technical part. If I were an evil lawyer, what steps could I now take to make some money ?



xiaowenzu said:


> ..If you are unsure whether a product is fake or not, always buy from a reputable dealer or go directly to the company site to check for their distributors.


Over many years, I had developed an attitude of buying cheap stuff and buying it at the cheapest possible outlet. Imitations are very few in Germany. Goods are backed by a long warranty period, so they are all somewhat durable. I lived mostly happily with this attitude.
Later, after I had moved to an Asian developing country, I quickly learned that I must pay a premium just to make sure I get a product that works as intended. I switched to buying imported goods of big brand names from reputable dealers, for most of my purchases. I no longer asked for bargains as the hazzle associated with them consumed lots of time and I usually ended up bearing the loss. Sure this affected my inner thinking, it made me ready to spend more money and not feel bad at all. I bought my first Surefire, during this time. The guy who sold it to me said that he was surprised, because Westerners very rarely shell out that much money for a flashlight.
After my return to Germany, it took a few years to come back to "normal", that is buy used, no-name and house-brand goods if available as well as fall back to plastic lights.

Bottom line: If you live in a country where goverment fails to protect consumers, well, then you pay for someone else not doing his job.


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## effulgentOne (May 5, 2007)

maybe they meant 3800 micro amp hours


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## Anders (May 6, 2007)

[font=&quot]I bought this two years ago, the first one is a fake.
23,6 grams, the real one is 30 grams. size isn't right either.
500 mAh Nicd:




Anders
[/font]


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## Foxel1 (May 6, 2007)

I just noticed: the barcode on batteries from thread starter begins with 4, this stands for Germany



very strange...

Edit: i was wrong, 49 stands for Distribution Code Center DCC (Japan)


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## LuxLuthor (May 6, 2007)

More examples

More Sony 3800's

Even more Sony's by same seller.

How do you report these to EBay as fraudulent when you are not the buyer?


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## Outdoors Fanatic (May 8, 2007)

They are as *fake* as it gets. SONY does not produce NiHM batteries with a capacity higher than 2500 mAh, and that I was told by a Sony PR. When in doubt, make a contact with the Manufacturer and check their official website. There's no such batteries.


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## Calina (May 8, 2007)

I got an E-mail from Sony yesterday. They are aware of the fake cells and want to know where those batteries are manufactured.

Do you have any information (as opposed to impresssions)?


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## Martin (May 9, 2007)

Calina said:


> I got an E-mail from Sony yesterday. They are aware of the fake cells and want to know where those batteries are manufactured.
> 
> Do you have any information (as opposed to impresssions)?



No. But above-linked EBAY-seller should know his supplier.

Sony would want to start acting, because the knowledge that there are lots of fakes around will encourage users to buy "safer" brands.


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## LGCubana (May 9, 2007)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> They are as *fake* as it gets. SONY does not produce NiHM batteries with a capacity higher than *2500 mAh*, and that I was told by a Sony PR. When in doubt, make a contact with the Manufacturer and check their official website. There's no such batteries.


 
Link to Sony 2700 mAh
http://products.sel.sony.com/battery/quick_charger_lcd.php


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## Outdoors Fanatic (May 11, 2007)

LGCubana said:


> Link to Sony 2700 mAh
> http://products.sel.sony.com/battery/quick_charger_lcd.php


 From the Sony website:_*. High capacity 2700 mAh Ni-MH battery available ONLY with LCD Charger. *_

Sorry but you are wrong, Sony does not sell batteries bigger than 2500 mAh, unless it comes with the LCD charger. Therefore, all batteries sold in packs of two or four claiming higher energy than 2500, are false.


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## PAB (May 11, 2007)

You don't need to recycle NiMH, but you do NiCad. These have the NiCad recycle warnings on them. Must be old NiCads that were relabled.


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## Martin (May 13, 2007)

PAB said:


> You don't need to recycle NiMH, but you do NiCad. These have the NiCad recycle warnings on them. Must be old NiCads that were relabled.


Good point. So we don't just have a consumer rip-off but an environmental issue, too.

On Kaidomain, in the product info of the "SLUGGER" NiMH cells, it says: "..Manufacturers in China tend to over-rate their batteries' capacities and it appears to be a standard practice..". The product is labeled 2200mAH while the real capacity is said to be 800mAh.
I really appreciate that Kai provides this information, unlike most other sellers of overrated cells.
So in future, I would have to ask a seller to state the real capacity of a cell, put it on my receit and sign it.


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## Windscale (May 13, 2007)

My associate has bought some Sony 1300mah AAA cells and found them to be just as good as dummy cells when analysed my Powerex c9000. So, BUYERS BEWARE.


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## SilverFox (May 13, 2007)

Hello Martin,

Better yet, ask the seller for the cells data or specification sheet. Then tell them if it does not come reasonably close to matching the published test data, you expect to return it for a full refund, including shipping costs.

Tom


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## evan9162 (May 13, 2007)

PAB said:


> You don't need to recycle NiMH, but you do NiCad. These have the NiCad recycle warnings on them. Must be old NiCads that were relabled.




You don't have to recycle NiMH cells, but you still should. Recovering the nickel from the cells is very cost effective, and the electrolytes in NiMH cells can still be toxic in very large qunatities. Nickel prices are constantly going up, so recycling NiMH cells will be more and more of a value proposition.


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## CdBoy (Apr 20, 2009)

Martin said:


> A week ago, I received 2 packs of the amazing Sony 3800mAh AA NiMH cells:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



THESE ARE FAKES! you've been had! Cycleenergy only comes in 2000mah.

check and search the forum.

beware of fakes. you will end up paying for their foolishness.


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## Haz (Apr 20, 2009)

CdBoy said:


> THESE ARE FAKES! you've been had! Cycleenergy only comes in 2000mah.
> 
> check and search the forum.
> 
> beware of fakes. you will end up paying for their foolishness.


 

I think they found out it was fake 2 years ago!!!


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## Egsise (Apr 20, 2009)

CdBoy said:


> THESE ARE FAKES! you've been had! Cycleenergy only comes in 2000mah.
> 
> check and search the forum.
> 
> beware of fakes. you will end up paying for their foolishness.



Sony Cycle Energy green are rebranded 2700mAh Sanyo cells.
Sony Cycle Energy blue are rebranded Sanyo Eneloops, or in Europe they are rebranded RayOVac Hybrids.(~2000mAh)


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## USSR (Feb 3, 2012)

Martin said:


> A week ago, I received 2 packs of the amazing Sony 3800mAh AA NiMH cells:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and these ****inng chinese are doing a roaring bussiness by producing fake replicas,, Pakistan is full with these fakes,, i also bought them only to discover that these are fakes,, i would use these in my LEDE lamp, earlier i would use non chargeable toshiba non alkaline cells (probably zzic/carbon) ,, they gave me 20 days of good lightening,with 2 hours daily usage,,but these chinese only lasted 3 days and the third day lighting ewaas horrible dark,, so i can confirm from this practical experience that these are well be;low 500-600mah,,,beware buyers of this chinease cheapo,,


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## USSR (Apr 16, 2012)

i opened this fake cycle energy cell . it was labelled 4200 mah. and was pretty heavy. 

this cell got bad afte 8 recharges.. 



here are the snaps of what came inside it..

the entire cell consisted of two outer layers one the labelled plastic.. and there was a transparent plastic... then was a metalic case.. inside case were two layers one of metal which was coated with some black sooth type thing.. and a paper also coated.. the height was 2.4cm.. initially when i opened the top positive side there was sufficient gap in the middle of the cell where i could insert the screwdriver and freely rotate that.. 
the most intersesting part was when i found a heavy mettalic cylinder in it.. it was 1.4 cm in height .. and the diameter was same as cell dia.. it was extremely heavy and was lying at the negative terminal side... the negative terminal was touching the cylinder and the rest of the above mentiond layers were intertwined and sititng on it.. 

i have not yet measured the metal or the cell itself but when i do i wil post the results.. 

so far what i have done is shown here in pictorial form.. please bear the poor quality camera work..
































































so take care before buying these fakes.


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## iron potato (Apr 16, 2012)

Wow, 3800mAh AA size, even 4200mAh AA size, impressive 

I also came across once with a brand, GODP AAA, rated 1350mAh, eventually the two gave me 213 & 208mAh :ironic:

The reason behind is, its a combo with a cheap multi charger that capable of charging 9V NiMH which I needed :duh2:

Now, I only buy Sanyo Eneloop / Tones / Glitter / XX ~

Btw, my 4pcs Sony CycleEnergy 800mAh AAA (NH-AAA HR03) still working as it should be, luckily not a fake :thumbsup:


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## kramer5150 (Apr 16, 2012)

Wow thats some serious galactic suckage. Nothing more than a 14360 + dummy spacer inside.
Are CPFers still buying these? I thought these scams were pretty thoroughly sniffed out.


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## MrElvey (Nov 4, 2016)

xiaowenzu said:


> another saying: "You get what you pay for". Remember quality costs money, and no-one can create a good product cheaply because high quality raw materials costs a lot. and they will lose profit if they sell it cheap. I NEVER buy cheap products on impulse, that's why I have never been tricked in my life.



Have to quibble with this. All the major battery manufacturers have formed a cartel and have been controlling prices. They got busted for this; google it. Rechargable batteries should be a *lot* cheaper than they are; so other companies *can* create a good product cheaply and enter the market. But it costs millions of dollars to build a battery manufacturing plant.

Oh, and sellers are still at it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/151799381857 = "4600mAh" "Sony" "CycleEnergy" AA batteries. It's not even possible to buy a (significantly larger) 18650-sized battery with this capacity.


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## CuriousOne (Nov 4, 2016)

There are very special types of batteries, which can deliver, say 6V 10Ah in AA dimensions, but they are single use, and output lasts maybe for 10-20 seconds.


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