# 500 LED 50 Watt Flashlight!



## brighterisbetter (Sep 27, 2008)

YouTube Video Link

Does anyone know the gentleman who crafted this beast :devil:?


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## adirondackdestroyer (Sep 27, 2008)

Talk about an impressive homemade light! Completely unbelievable! I wonder how many lumens that thing is really putting out though.


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## LukeA (Sep 27, 2008)

Frankly I'm not impressed. I built something smaller and brighter with better throw a few months ago.

5mm LEDs = meh.


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## Gryloc (Sep 27, 2008)

Impressive, but i wonder if those are very efficient leds. Someone needs to show him the light (Cree XR-E and MC-E). I also wonder the lumen output of the light. It sure has a wide beam. I like his switching interface (although it is pretty busy back there). It is hard to tell what each switch and "phase" did. If he would put as much time and energy into a flashlight with high efficiency and high flux, I cannot even imagine what he could accomplish.

Can someone leave a post for him on the YouTube forums asking him to come to the CPF and present his creation?  I do not have a YouTube account and I never had the desire to post there. He needs to know that there are other crazy people like him. Thanks.

I know there are quite a few people out there that are knowledgable in electronics and have the passion, and they just need to the push in the high power LED area. I know that Malkoff used to sell LED drivers on eBay before he jumped onto the CPF boat. This guy could accomplish so much with the resources on the CPF.

-Tony


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## 276 (Sep 28, 2008)

Wow


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## LukeA (Sep 28, 2008)

Gryloc said:


> Can someone leave a post for him on the YouTube forums asking him to come to the CPF and present his creation?  I do not have a YouTube account and I never had the desire to post there. He needs to know that there are other crazy people like him. Thanks.



Done - Wonder if he'll show up.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Sep 28, 2008)

LukeA said:


> Frankly I'm not impressed. I built something smaller and brighter with better throw a few months ago.
> 
> 5mm LEDs = meh.


+1 to all three points.


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## kurni (Sep 28, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> +1 to all three points.



Well... at least no heat issue, but the efforts could have been more impressive with a bunch of R2s.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Sep 28, 2008)

kurni said:


> Well... at least no heat issue, but the efforts could have been more impressive with a bunch of R2s.


What do you mean, "no heat issue"?


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## kurni (Sep 28, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> What do you mean, "no heat issue"?



Erm... I might be mistaken, the 5mm LED takes very little current so no heatsinking is necessary?

I'm imagining if it's 50 Cree instead of 500 5mm I might need serious heat sinking.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Sep 28, 2008)

50W is 50W. With ordinary 5mm LEDs (not counting Nichia GS, which probably weren't used), efficiency is lower than XR-Es. If there were an equally-powered XR-E array, there would be more heat generated by the 5mm array. The heat would be more spread out, admittedly, but those LEDs are still creating heat, and the common 5mm package is extremely bad at getting rid of heat, with bad results.


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## jirik_cz (Sep 28, 2008)

In fact I didn't see much heatsinking there. And I'm afraid that it would melt after couple of minutes of usage on full power.

My guess is that it can have around 1000 lumens. And that can be achieved with four Cree XR-E R2 at 12W or with two underdriven SSC P7 or Cree MC-E.


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## kurni (Sep 28, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> 50W is 50W. With ordinary 5mm LEDs (not counting Nichia GS, which probably weren't used), efficiency is lower than XR-Es. If there were an equally-powered XR-E array, there would be more heat generated by the 5mm array. The heat would be more spread out, admittedly, but those LEDs are still creating heat, and the common 5mm package is extremely bad at getting rid of heat, with bad results.



I stand corrected. Thank you for the link.

I am _guessing_ that 5mm package is not hot because it doesn't have any thermal path, not because it doesn't generate any heat.

Thanks again,
Kurni


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## kurni (Sep 28, 2008)

Gryloc said:


> Can someone leave a post for him on the YouTube forums asking him to come to the CPF and present his creation?  I do not have a YouTube account and I never had the desire to post there. He needs to know that there are other crazy people like him. Thanks.



I hope he won't be heart-broken when introduced to Cree / SSC


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## brighterisbetter (Sep 28, 2008)

The intention of this post wasn't to express my amazement of the output of his device, but rather to make others aware of the ingenuity of some people out there who may or may not know of CPF. While I agree that I wasn't very impressed with the overall output, I will say that it's a cool light nonetheless with one heckuva switchboard. I just think it's neat to discover others out there like ourselves.


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## DM51 (Sep 28, 2008)

brighterisbetter said:


> The intention of this post wasn't to express my amazement of the output of his device, but rather to make others aware of the ingenuity of some people out there who may or may not know of CPF. While I agree that I wasn't very impressed with the overall output, I will say that it's a cool light nonetheless with one heckuva switchboard. I just think it's neat to discover others out there like ourselves.


Agreed 100%! Just think what this guy might be capable of creating when he learns about the latest developments in lighting technology. I hope he shows up here!


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## Nitroz (Sep 28, 2008)

DM51 said:


> Agreed 100%! Just think what this guy might be capable of creating when he learns about the latest developments in lighting technology. I hope he shows up here!



This light is still cool and your average joe would be extremely amazed by such a light.

I would really like to see this guy show up here and use some of the new LEDs to create something.


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## MSaxatilus (Sep 28, 2008)

I've got two words for that guy.....


*DATA BANK!!!*




I'm sure the Data Bank would crush that thing.

MSax


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## light_emitting_dude (Sep 29, 2008)

Does it come with a sheath? 

Neat light...interesting control panel also.


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## Juggernaut (Sep 29, 2008)

I can’t grasp the fact that the guy built the thing without any idea of CPF! I saw this video a while back and figured you guys had seen it already / were in on it. Poor guy, what if he was showing that off to someone and one of use walked by and pulled out a little electrolumens ShadeSlayer-FatBoy he would probably have a heart attack!


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## Nitroz (Sep 29, 2008)

Juggernaut said:


> I can’t grasp the fact that the guy built the thing without any idea of CPF! I saw this video a while back and figured you guys had seen it already / were in on it. Poor guy, what if he was showing that off to someone and one of use walked by and pulled out a little electrolumens ShadeSlayer-FatBoy he would probably have a heart attack!




I think you meant This. For some reason your link pointed to another thread?


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## ozner1991 (Sep 30, 2008)

if only he used crees :candle:

only the heat sink would be an problem


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## ericjwi (Sep 30, 2008)

4x SSC P7 

I like his controls


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## EngrPaul (Sep 30, 2008)

Runtime?

Water Resistance?


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## white light (Oct 2, 2008)

brighterisbetter said:


> The intention of this post wasn't to express my amazement of the output of his device, but rather to make others aware of the ingenuity of some people out there who may or may not know of CPF. While I agree that I wasn't very impressed with the overall output, I will say that it's a cool light nonetheless with one heckuva switchboard. I just think it's neat to discover others out there like ourselves.


 
+1  .I myself was once that guy(mainly for the lack of not using a computer enough).I have been a flashaholic for half my life (35 now) and only discovered CPF and FF just a little over a year ago.
I got my first SF(formerly LP) from a family friend and was amazed at the detail.It was way above, in quality,of anything that I had already had.All tho I hardly post my builds(mainly cause I can't deal with loading the pics)(and the fact that my computer does not like me)I have built some cool lights in my day.The best was 20 bulb (par 16 with reflector) 1000w light monster driven with an ac to dc converter.The idea was built around the use of a honda 1000w lunch box type generator.It looked something like the Data bank 70 only it was round and slightly dished.I had used the side of a tractor trailer aluminum gas tank for the main body.I used what ever I could get for free :laughing:.Sure wish I still had it  :ironic:.
Anyhow I was glad to find thier were others out thier like me.My family just thought I was a nut .
Cheers to all you guys out thier :twothumbs


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## missionaryman (Oct 2, 2008)

ATT: dude that built that light 

If you do happen to visit these forums can you please quote me on making me a full body jump suit with 5mm LED's embedded throughout and a P7 right about where my but hole should be so that when I want it to the sun can really shine out of my a**

now that would make for an impressive youtube video


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## ericjwi (Oct 2, 2008)

Anyone have the money to try to make a 500 SSC P7 light and see how much light it puts out (you might want to water cool that baby) 

EDIT: scratch that much more efficient to use 1w 226lm CREE


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## Juggernaut (Oct 2, 2008)

Nitroz said:


> I think you meant This. For some reason your link pointed to another thread?


 
That’s weird:thinking:? Thanks for including the right link.


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## elnero55 (Oct 2, 2008)

i sent him a message with a link to this post, hopefully it will get him to join.


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## mwhens (Oct 3, 2008)

I hate this so much, submit relply didn't work, I can type it all over again!!!
I keep it short this time...

I'am here, the youtube clip maker.

First some explaining....

At first it was never my intension to make a super flashlight. I fist bought 100 diferent leds to see what to put in my railroad models.
With that there was a 5mm 18.000 mcd 20* degrees led.
That was so birght for sush a small led, I thought, lets build a flashlight with it, because it only usage 20mA.
But they were expansive, €1,50. So I found a ebay seller (hongkong) and bought 55.000mcd leds, but I didn't belived it. And when testing it was only a little brighter than my 18.000mcd led, I contacted him, and he told me it were fake specs, and it was 20.000mcd for real.
55.000 isn't posible.
I first bought 20 leds, than 100, than 300 more, than 100 more.
And I ended up with a flashlight with 512 leds to be precies, with a useage of around 46-47W.
I started with my idea on tweakers (a dutch electronic forum)
http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/1275834/0
And many people sad that maybe a highpower led was a better option, but after some calculating, I was not convinced because of the heat productions. More heat, more energie loss.
And with lumen calculating tools it was clear to me that the best 5mm leds I could find were the best choose.
It was clear all 512 leds would be able to generate 3800 lumen at 20* degrees. But as you can see, there is light enough to be a 180* light. So that means all the light outside the 20* isn't count, and maybe it's even 5000+ with all light together.

Heat, I never used this flashlight for a long time, but the first time I felt some heat comming of the leds was when I used it for 10minutes at full power. The leds felt warm, but not hot, so no problem there.
Normally you don't see 5mm going warm, but when they are packed together like this (had to grind the foots of all leds to make it fit on a 13cm dish) they can get warm, but not hot, and no heat stuff is needed.

I'am not a flashlight freak all my life, this was my first electronic project. And I don't going to make a flashlight like this any more, it was such a hard time to make all 512 leds work and to create all that extra electronic stuff working. But when I make something, it must be perfect to me, so I did go on.

I want to make a beam light out of this flashlight, but I don't know how, does someone know how to do that?

Can someone post a link to some of the best high power leds?
I can't find a shop where they sell "crees"? or p7's. Don't know anything about that.


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## DM51 (Oct 3, 2008)

Welcome to CPF, mwhens!

I’m sorry you experienced some trouble when you first tried to submit your post. We are having some trouble with the CPF server, and it is a good idea to type up your post in a text editor, save it there, and then copy it into here – that way, you still have a saved copy if there is a problem submitting it. 

We have all been full of admiration for your amazing light, and for the quality of the build. I am sure the LED gurus here will be able to suggest ways for you to use higher-power LEDs, and which ones might be the best to use. There is already plenty of material in the various forums here which you may find useful.

It’s great to have you with us!


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## TigerhawkT3 (Oct 3, 2008)

Hey, mwhens! :welcome:

High power LEDs would indeed have been a better option. Unless you were using Nichia DS or GS LEDs, I would estimate your array at 2500 lumens, not 3800 or 5000. With an array of Cree XR-Es, you can get 2500L with around 25W-30W, 3800L with around 40-45W, or 5000L with around 55W. There would be less heat and less energy loss with XR-Es, not the other way around.

Cheap XR-Es can be found here and here.


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## Gryloc (Oct 3, 2008)

mwhens,

It is great to see you stop by. Welcome! I will have to post more later...

Well, first of all, please do not let anyone bother you when they stress that you could have used high-power LED emitters. I can relate with you because some of us modders and custom light builders use what ever parts that we have. Some of us just like to be different, or sometimes impractical and/or strange. Some can argue about the efficiency, beam tint, and beam angle, but when you have that much light coming from any sort of LEDs, it is impressive no matter what!

I want to help you determine the exact lumen output later. There is a thread called something like "White LED Lumen Testing" (you can search for it and it should be the first result) that shows the results from lumen testing of dozens of high brightness 5mm LEDs (from many sources like from private donors and simple eBay orders, like yours). It would give you an exact lumen measurement for many LED types, depending on LED current (a nice lumen-current graph is shown for all LEDs tested).

Finally, there is a slight misconception when it comes to heat and 5mm LEDs versus high power LEDs. When we worry about heat, it is mostly a matter of total LED life, and degradation of output at high temps. Just to start the discussion, 5mm LEDs have a higher thermal resistance (due to the plastic epoxy), so the actual silicon LED die is operating at higher temperatures (meaning shorter life span). The outside of the LED package can seem warm, but the junction temperature of the die can be rather hot. High power LEDs have dies joined directly to a copper slug, which you attach to a heatsink to dissipate the heat. High power LEDs use the same power of dozens of 5mm LEDs, but in one package, so the heat is more concentrated in one spot. The heatsink on the array of high power LEDs may feel hot, but do not forget that the junction temperatures of the dies on the high power LEDs are only slightly higher (much cooler than some 5mm LEDs that are slightly over-powered). This is due to a low thermal resistance between the die and the heatsink. Therefore, high power LEDs, when kept below a rated junction temperature, will last much longer than a 5mm LED. There is a bunch of hype on LED lifetime, depending on the particular product.

Just a easy way to think of all of that, consider attaching all the bare dies from the 5mm LEDs to a single heatsink (all 512 of them). The heatsink would be just as hot as having the same equivalent of high power LEDs attached to the same heatsink (with matched total power consumption and efficiency). High efficiency emitters (both 5mm and high power types) waste about the same percentage of power drawn as heat, and the rest of the power is converted to light. 

Do I make sense with this? Please correct me on incorrect points. This is my collected knowledge reading posts on CPF for the last couple of years (soaking info from poster like Newbie and many others). 

Have fun looking around. Please do not feel pressured to join our hobby of flashlight collecting. I understand where you are coming from completely. 

Cheers, 
-Tony


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## divine (Oct 3, 2008)

Nice work with that light. You made a lot out of very little!

Do you mind me asking what battery setup you used to power 50 watts for 10 minutes?

You might want to take a look at the modder forum.

Typically, to focus multiple led's, you use a separate reflector for each LED, but the optic on the LED you're using is focused already... I think what you have setup is optimal already. The light coming out the side is reasonable.


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## mwhens (Oct 4, 2008)

Hi all,

Thanks for all your information, verry helpfull. I now have more understanding of high power leds.

If I would upgrade my flashlight with highpower leds, efficiency isn't the first priority anymore, I have done that already. I maybe would like to upgrade it to have a verry powerfull "beam" of high power leds.
If it would fit on a 13cm dish, how can you put allot of high power leds on a dish? I see that high power leds have a big space around the die.
Second, cooling. Is it an option to make a thick 13cm coper plate and put a good cpu cooler on the bottom of it?
And I read allot about high power led drivers, do they stabilize the current for the leds? I can't hook up my 12v battery with a risistor?
Is it posible to use one driver for all high power leds that fit on a 13cm dish?
And I would need to use small reflectors for each led to make it into a beam?
I don't say I'm going to upgrade it, but it sounds interresting.
I see allot of high power leds on those two shops you gave the link to, but what are the most powerfull leds with lumen a priority?
Because I don't going to upgrade to only have 20 - 30% more light, I would go for the max.


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## DM51 (Oct 4, 2008)

CPFer Data made a super-powerful light with 70x Cree XR-E LEDs, which he called the Data Bank. His thread is well worth a read, and will give you an idea of what can be done.


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## jirik_cz (Oct 4, 2008)

I don't recommend buying leds on kaidomain or DX. They usually don't have the best quality items. Sometimes they have false specifications etc.

One possible upgrade could be this:
6xSSC P7 D-bin (800-900lm/10W), wired as two branches of three serial connected leds.
they have around 3.6V/2.8A so you can hang 3 in series directly (with a small resistor) to your 12V battery.
you can use Sekonix optics or Ledil reflectors.

You can buy SSC P7 D-bin here or here (they have also optics by Sekonix). I don't know where to buy reflectors by Ledil, but you can ask Brum. Maybe he can get them.

13cm thick copper plate + cpu cooler would be great


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## divine (Oct 4, 2008)

I recommend taking a look at this thread. Mac does some amazing work.

One of these days I will put down the money to get one of his creations.


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## LukeA (Oct 4, 2008)

mwhens said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for all your information, verry helpfull. I now have more understanding of high power leds.
> 
> ...



If you use high power LEDs, say XR-Es, you do get both the best efficiency AND the most lumens.


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## Gunner12 (Oct 4, 2008)

:welcome: mwhens

I tried to post this on your video but it wouldn't work.

From this thread, presuming you are driving each 5mm LED at 30 mA, the best 5mm LED outputs around 7.5 lumen(this is total output). The best high power LED, the Cree XR-E R2, hits 270 lumen at 1 amp, so total output is similar for both at 50 watts presuming the best 5mm LED and the best single die high power LED.

But with the high power LEDs you can use optics or reflectors to focus the light for a more powerful beam.

DX and KD do have the real items, their problem is slow shipping, bad packing, and espicially for KD, bad communication.

A resistor could work but the LEDs have different Vfs so you'll have to wire them in series to ensure the same current to each LED.


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## wquiles (Oct 4, 2008)

Welcome to the forums mwhens 

Good going with your project - awesome indeed :twothumbs

Keep reading/learning - I am sure you will build even more unique projects in the future 

Will


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## 2xTrinity (Oct 4, 2008)

> And I read allot about high power led drivers, do they stabilize the current for the leds? I can't hook up my 12v battery with a risistor?


You can, although you will end up wasting some power in the ballast resistor, and output will drop along with your battery's loaded voltage curve. Using a voltage stepdown driver will give you regulated output.

R2 dropin modules -- These are high power cool-white LEDs with built in regulators able to run directly off your 12V battery (or really any battery from ~5 - 18V). If you wanted to, you could mount a grid of these inside some sort of extruded aluminum framework, or maybe some copper pipes. (something to help wick away the heat and hold everything together). This will give you quite good throw compared to 5mm LEDs, as well. You should be able to fit 18 of these inside a 13cm plate. 


Another option is the Cree MCE from cutter

These are four separate high power LED dice in a singel package. With 5 (about the equivalent of 18 of the dropins above for overall output) you could almost certainly beat the output and throw of your 500 LED monster, while drawing the same power.

If you buy stars, these are much easier to work with than 5mm LEDs. Heat dissipation is hurt slightly by using the PCBs, but it will still be FAR better than non-heatsinked 5mm LEDs.

I actually built a 2C mag light with three warm white MCEs, directly driven off of two LiIon C-Cells. The light draws about 25 watts on average, and outputs I'd estimate well over 1500 lumens. It's quite a monster for a (jacket) pocketable light, and only took a couple hours at most to make. 

Also, check out the warm or neutral white bins. Lumen output is slightly lower, but the quality of light is much better suited to most applications, especailly outdoors. In nature there aren't a lot of things that reflect blue light, the neutral and warm white LED lights provide more useful contrast lumen-for-lumen. Even the cool white power LEDs are typcially much better for color rendition than any 5mm LEDs I've seen, though.


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## LukeA (Oct 4, 2008)

2xTrinity said:


> You can, although you will end up wasting some power in the ballast resistor, and output will drop along with your battery's loaded voltage curve. Using a voltage stepdown driver will give you regulated output.
> 
> R2 dropin modules -- These are high power cool-white LEDs with built in regulators able to run directly off your 12V battery (or really any battery from ~5 - 18V). If you wanted to, you could mount a grid of these inside some sort of extruded aluminum framework, or maybe some copper pipes. (something to help wick away the heat and hold everything together). This will give you quite good throw compared to 5mm LEDs, as well. You should be able to fit 18 of these inside a 13cm plate.



I would still use the Q5 versions (sku.11621), as I still don't believe the R2 claim of those.


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## 2xTrinity (Oct 4, 2008)

LukeA said:


> I would still use the Q5 versions (sku.11621), as I still don't believe the R2 claim of those.


Okay, I wasn't aware of any discrepancies, though I haven't used that exact dropin. I've used the Q2 5A dropins for a few projects however (neutral white emitter). Those are unfortunately sold out at this time.


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