# Petzl 2009 models!



## santza (Mar 1, 2009)

Hi all. I have seen the new petzl line which is going public in next fall.
They have BIG improvements to their lights:
modern led's multi-modes on all models etc.
Howewer i've been told that there is possibly still no regulation
except the myo RXP. Packaging will be more attractive and
more space-efficient. All models are marketed at least for now as. tikkina 2, tikka 2, tikka plus 2 etc.

Note! This information is from a sales rep. + I have seen the headlamps myself and made the conclusions, so there might be some inaccuracies.
I dont have any documentation of these to verify the data, you just have to trust my memory

(please note the edit line in the bottom of this post before making conclusions)

Here is the new line in nutshell:

Tikkina 2, replaces tikka and tikkina:
3xAAA batteries, alkaline or nimh
2 x 5mm led's (possibly nichia GS, yet ok tint)
More lumens than current gen petzl tikka which has 3 leds.
3 mode circuitry; low mode, high mode and strobe/beacon
Comes in variety of colors incl. blue, pink, lime and yellow,
headband color matches the frame color.
Cheaper than current gen tikka or tikkina


Tikka 2 / Zipka 2, replaces tikka/zipka and tikka plus/zipka plus:
3xAAA batteries, alkaline or nimh
4 x 5mm led's (possibly nichia GS, yet ok tint)
(possibly?) more lumens than current gen petzl tikka plus with 4 leds.
3 mode circuitry; low mode, high mode and strobe/beacon
Comes in different colors, i cant remember which ones but at least two different choices.
Tikka version has casual headband, Zipka has the "zipka" headband
Pricing around current gen tikka

Tikka plus 2 / Zipka plus 2, replaces tikka plus/zipka plus and tikka xp:
3xAAA batteries, alkaline or nimh
1xSSC P4 with optic (both hotspot and spillbeam)
(possibly?) more lumens than current gen tikka XP
3 mode circuitry; low mode, high mode and strobe/beacon
Comes in different colors, i cant remember which ones but at least two different choices.
Tikka version has casual headband, Zipka has the "zipka" headband
Pricing around current gen tikka plus

Tikka XP 2 (note, only tikka, no zipka):
3xAAA batteries, alkaline or nimh
1xSSC p4 with optic + myo xp style diffuser
LOTS of lumens, many many more than the new tikka plus. (above)
1x low output red led with flood beam
3 mode circuitry; low mode, high mode and strobe/beacon
both led's have the multimode interface! (IIRC)
Comes in different colors, at least two different choices (black and blue).
Pricing around current gen tikka xp

Tikka 2 series adapt kit:
adapt kit for new headlamps.
fit's all the new tikka 2 series.
basically it's headband that goes also over your head as the older petzl adapt models.

Any comments?



EDIT: Seems that I didnt remember quite correct.



tnuckels said:


> In researching the question of the Boost mode’s 20 second cut-off, I queried the Petzl rep about their upcoming lights.
> 
> To the best of his memory (and mine now … what’s that game where you pass info around a room?) the only light going to 3 modes (low, high, blinky) is the Tikina. LED counts are correct, though he couldn’t verify the 5mm manufacturer. The Tikka, Tikka +, and Tikka XP will actually have more output levels, 5 or 6, with the Tikka + and Tikka XP getting a 5mm RED mode. Still no regulation, still not waterproof, and I forgot to ask about pricing or availability.
> 
> So, maybe not so bad, depending on your love/hate of AAA x 3 and regulation. Still, I'm beginning to think this early info is "the :devil: devil's :devil: workshop" for getting all in a lather over nothing.



I will ask the rep. the specs. I will correct this post later.

Sorry for inconvenience.


----------



## paulr (Mar 1, 2009)

I really wish they'd do a 1aa version of the zipka. The zipka headband plus 1aa power ... sweeeeet.


----------



## noelex (Mar 1, 2009)

Have they fixed the wiring problem for the 2009 models or do they still just have fuse?


----------



## tnuckels (Mar 1, 2009)

*Santza*, thanks for these updates. I’ve always liked the Adapt system so it’s nice to see they’ve extended its versatility. Where did you see all this?




noelex said:


> Have they fixed the wiring problem for the 2009 models or do they still just have fuse?


I don’t think concerns about wire wear and tear issues have any relevance here, as none of models mentioned by *Santza* have external wires. :green: 

*EDIT:* Spell checker liked Stanza better. Sorry ...


----------



## santza (Mar 1, 2009)

tnuckels said:


> *Stanza*, thanks for these updates. I’ve always liked the Adapt system so it’s nice to see they’ve extended its versatility. Where did you see all this?
> 
> 
> I don’t think concerns about wire wear and tear issues have any relevance here, as none of models mentioned by *Stanza* have external wires. :green:


Btw. it's santza, not stanza..

Petzl importer's sales representative had them all in a nice-looking case.
I made a quite big discounted pre-order for them to next fall, so our dept. store has lots of good headlamps to sell.
Keeping in mind that these are likely to run out of their stock fast just like the SSC myo XP did last year.

And yes, the wiring in these models is completely internal.


----------



## tnuckels (Mar 1, 2009)

So, I guess lights don’t come out like automobiles where the new models available in the Fall count as the early release of next year’s goodies? Still, Fall of ’09 seems sort of late for “2009” lights, but close to Christmas gives everyone an excuse to buy.

Must be an “outdoors” department store to carry such goods or just not in the States. When would you expect these to start hitting the shelves?

The Tikka XP 2 sounds like a buyer. Everything I already like, plus red for night vision. Cool!




paulr said:


> I really wish they'd do a 1aa version of the zipka. The zipka headband plus 1aa power ... sweeeeet.


That would be one small package. I remember some CPFer cannibalized a Zipka for the retention system and attach it to a … something else … maybe a Zebra?


----------



## moonfish (Mar 1, 2009)

I also could could be blessed never to waste my time with another AAAx3 setup.


----------



## cave dave (Mar 1, 2009)

So some time fall '09 Petzl will catch up to what the modders were doing two years ago?

I think I will pass.
:sigh:
Maybe at least try something innovative like a 1AA light?


----------



## gajslk (Mar 1, 2009)

Sorry, no regulation, no sale. Better luck next year.


----------



## Shorty66 (Mar 2, 2009)

tnuckels said:


> That would be one small package. I remember some CPFer cannibalized a Zipka for the retention system and attach it to a … something else … maybe a Zebra?



It was me. Zipka Headband + H60:


----------



## uk_caver (Mar 2, 2009)

They certainly seem to think people really want strobes.

Personally, unless low and high were very close together (x3 or less) I'd always choose a low/medium/high setup over low/high/strobe.

Especially where battery life is an issue, having an intermediate option can give much more runtime in situations where the low setting isn't bright enough, and I imagine that all the places I need a headlight, I'd be far more likely to be in a situation where runtime might be an issue than where I might have need of a strobe in order to be found by potential rescuers.

Particularly with the Tikka XP 2, having a light that is potentially very bright on full, runs off AAAs but still only has 2 levels seems a strange design, though I guess they're maybe hobbling it somewhat in the hope people will choose a Myo instead.


----------



## tnuckels (Mar 2, 2009)

Hmm, I only read as far as “3 mode”, my brain filled in High, Med, Low, and I carried on reading the next line. That does seem a drawback, not having a middle power level, and smacks of marketing rather than engineering. Much rather have a 3d power level than the rarely, if ever, used blinky mode.
 
*Santza*, can you confirm this, and are you really on a secret fact finding mission from  Petzl and testing the waters for new design combinations?
 
Just askin’ is all … :tinfoil:


----------



## Woods Walker (Mar 2, 2009)

Seems like they are looking to play catch up with PT and like most headlamp makers PT took forever to upgrade. Still no regulation with many of them. Oh no that means no lithium. Come on. I guess a brighter Tikka plus would be nice as the Tikka plus is a very good direct drive headlmap however mine is bright enough and will not spend money just to get a few more lumens. Now if I lost my Tikka plus guessing the upgrade would be enough reason for another.


----------



## tnuckels (Mar 2, 2009)

Dang, off composing and *Woodsy *beats me to the punch!




cave dave said:


> So some time fall '09 Petzl will catch up to what the modders were doing two years ago? I think I will pass.


It seems like this could be applied equally to almost all of the older, more established, mainstream headlamp makers out there. Still, better late than never. However, with them off in their LuxI & LuxIII daydream it was a good day to be a modder, right? What fun will be left to be had when everyone is up to date?




moonfish said:


> I also could be blessed never to waste my time with another AAAx3 setup.





gajslk said:


> Sorry, no regulation, no sale. Better luck next year.


I don’t quite follow the logic concerning the next two items: AAA x 3 lights and Regulation, and hear them thrown around so much as flaws that they begin to feel like “buzz-words” that have been elevated beyond their merits because everyone is _supposed_ to dislike them.

I completely understand the benefits of a more robust battery, but if you’re willing to give up some runtime for diminished size/weight, and you don’t have to contend with some goofy, fragile AAAx3 battery carrier, then what’s the harm in this power source?

Likewise, I enjoy a knowing that when I turn a light on I’m going to get X amount of light every time, or nothing at all, or perhaps some sort of “moon” mode. I also like the thought of squeezing every drop of juice out of my batteries. However, since NiMH rechargeables have reached the point of consistent usability, sucking batteries dry has diminished in importance to me. I’ve also never had a problem with unregulated lights, especially headlamps, which, if my experience is anything like the norm, probably see longer duration usage intervals than do handheld lights. Sure, you get more light to begin with that then tapers off in an unattractive diminishing curve, but because you’re using them for longer periods of time your eyes adjust and don’t really notice it much till it’s almost time for new batteries.

Well, that’s my contrarian take on it anyway, and though the brand being discussed is Petzl, my thoughts extend well beyond a single manufacturer.


----------



## 276 (Mar 2, 2009)

I like the current setup that has 4 modes high, med, low then strobe/ beacon.


----------



## Shorty66 (Mar 2, 2009)

Lithium Batterys are lighter and as you dont need three cells you can make smaller lamps wich means another weight reduction.

3AAA NIMHs have less runtime than one 14500.

Wether you like regulation or not is perhaps a question of taste, but regulated lights are usally more efficient than unregulated ones because you get usable light for a longer time.


----------



## tnuckels (Mar 3, 2009)

In researching the question of the Boost mode’s 20 second cut-off, I queried the Petzl rep about their upcoming lights.

To the best of his memory (and mine now … what’s that game where you pass info around a room?) the only light going to 3 modes (low, high, blinky) is the Tikina. LED counts are correct, though he couldn’t verify the 5mm manufacturer. The Tikka, Tikka +, and Tikka XP will actually have more output levels, 5 or 6, with the Tikka + and Tikka XP getting a 5mm RED mode. Still no regulation, still not waterproof, and I forgot to ask about pricing or availability.

So, maybe not so bad, depending on your love/hate of AAA x 3 and regulation. Still, I'm beginning to think this early info is "the :devil: devil's :devil: workshop" for getting all in a lather over nothing.


----------



## tnuckels (Mar 3, 2009)

Shorty66 said:


> Lithium Batteries are lighter and as you don’t need three cells you can make smaller lamps which means another weight reduction.





Shorty66 said:


> 3AAA NIMHs have less runtime than one 14500.


I understand completely and agree with your assessment. But, for the "average-Joe" out there, alkalines are their default battery, rechargeable NiMH are for “Green-Hugger-Liberals”, and anything else should plumb be illegal. Perhaps an extreme illustration, but I’m sure you take my point. 

Also, many of the more exotic rechargeables carry a level of danger associated with their use and recharge cycle and probably should not be handled by casual users. Even being careful around my own house, I can’t tell you how many times my younger children have put primaries on the charger, so far to no ill effect. 

You could even muster a decent argument against lithium primaries, unless you need them for winter conditions, considering their street price. So, mainstream manufacturers are mostly concerned with servicing mainstream buyers, and perhaps immune to some degree of criticism leveled at them by CPFers, no mater how well founded the logic.




Shorty66 said:


> Whether you like regulation or not is perhaps a question of taste, but regulated lights are usually more efficient than unregulated ones because you get usable light for a longer time.


Oh, I like regulation, but feel its merits loose a bit of their luster when discussed in the context of headlamps. Perhaps we could define “usable light”. Oddly enough I find that I need more lumens using my headlamp during the day than at night to overcome the sunshine and pierce the remaining shadows. And even at night I’ll turn off some distracting lights around me because it seems to make my headlamp work better at lower levels. But, in the deep dark places of the world it’s surprising what amounts to enough light, a mere handful of lumens, and I think we tend to discount what our own eyes can do, enchanted as we are with our bright, shiny toys.


----------



## hopkins (Mar 7, 2009)

Originally Posted by Shorty66 
Whether you like regulation or not is perhaps a question of taste, but regulated lights are usually more efficient than unregulated ones because you get usable light for a longer time.

Depends on your definition of what 'is' is... 'usable'...:green: 

One thing headlamp makers could add is glow in the dark material inside the battery compartment +/- symbols for those who may need to replace batteries
in the dark.
Some battery holders do not have coil springs anymore so some helpful glow
+/- signs would be nice to get the batteries in the correct polarity.


----------



## d1337 (Mar 8, 2009)

One thing headlamp makers could add is glow in the dark material inside the battery compartment +/- symbols for those who may need to replace batteries
in the dark.
Some battery holders do not have coil springs anymore so some helpful glow
+/- signs would be nice to get the batteries in the correct polarity.[/quote]

Glow in the dark material in the battery compartment is a interesting idea but don't forget that 99% of all glow in the dark material needs to "charge" up in bright light. Battery compartments don't usually see much sun. Trits would work but Petzl would never use trits. Maybe just continuing to use springs is the answer.


----------



## cave dave (Mar 8, 2009)

Shorty66 said:


> Wether you like regulation or not is perhaps a question of taste, but regulated lights are usally more efficient than unregulated ones because you get usable light for a longer time.



I believe that is almost universally untrue. In particular with Alkaline its definitely untrue. Although as others have said it depends on what you define as "usable" and of course individual converters have varying efficiencies.

If you consider 10% of original brightness as "usable" then the unregulated will always win.

There is a battery death spiral effect with regulated lights. As the voltage in the battery drops the current demand goes up which causes the voltage to sag even more and the current demand to go up, etc. High current draws like this on alkalines are very inefficient at the battery.

If both a regulated and unregulated converter were the same efficiency the area under the runtime graph would be the same, but the curves would be different. So you might have the following results.

Regulated:
2hr flat runtime, drop to zero in just a few minutes at the end

Unregulated:
4hr sloping runtime, 45% after 2hrs, 8% after 4hrs, then a long tail of moon mode

I actually spend a lot of dark time with non-flasholics using headlamps. Often 6-10hrs at a time underground caving.

Here is what I have found:
1) Nobody uses rechargeables, I've tried to convince them but everybody uses alkaline, they may have tried in the past but they had bad experiences or too lazy/forgetful to recharge, so never again. (There misguided experience is that rechargeable = less bright, short runtimes, high self discharge)

2) Unregulated lights like Petzl dim slowly enough that you simply don't notice the dimming while caving. You're eyes adjust faster than the lights dim.

3) Non-flasholics won't change batteries till the last dying glimmer of the bulb or emitter. My guess would be about 1/20th of the peak brightness. :thinking:

4) They won't even change batteries between trips either, so they may start the second day trip at 25% of the peak brightness. (actually it starts at near 100% as there is some battery recovery over night, but brightness drops off quickly). And yet *they DON'T notice.* In fact they brag about how great there Petzl is and that they have done 3 cave trips on one set of batteries.

Conclusion:
Petzl knows what they are doing by going unregulated. I would still like to see a waterproof 1AA multi level with reflector headlamp that starts at a very low low, though.


----------



## North61 (Mar 8, 2009)

I am a bit of a rookie so go easy on me. Up here in the arctic the Lithium batteries are a big plus on -35C trips. So the upgrade on the Petzl Myo RXP are welcome. I can't wait for mine to arrive

Looking at the figures on the Petzl fact-sheet it appears that on Alkalines after the regulated run on the RXP you have a fairly long time of slow death as outlined by cave dave. The lithiums will likely die faster during the slow death phase.

So I am not sure that there is a huge difference but I think I will appreciate the regulation. On step 9 and 10 the light is unregulated so it appears I have both features anyway.


----------



## tnuckels (Mar 8, 2009)

Plus, don't rechargeables, with their more constant discharge levels, provide the "appearance" of regulation by flattening out the output light level curve?


----------



## uk_caver (Mar 8, 2009)

cave dave said:


> I believe that is almost universally untrue. In particular with Alkaline its definitely untrue. Although as others have said it depends on what you define as "usable" and of course individual converters have varying efficiencies.
> 
> If you consider 10% of original brightness as "usable" then the unregulated will always win.


But strictly speaking, with a multilevel light, if 10% of the maximum/initial brightness would do, someone _could_ always select a level closer to that to start off with.



cave dave said:


> There is a battery death spiral effect with regulated lights. As the voltage in the battery drops the current demand goes up which causes the voltage to sag even more and the current demand to go up, etc. High current draws like this on alkalines are very inefficient at the battery.


That can certainly be true of some regulated drivers, and may be true of the ones you most often encounter, it isn't necessarily true of all of them.


----------



## tnuckels (Jul 10, 2009)

Well, they finally got around to this HERE. The site is not without errors (the main picture HERE couldn’t even be fixed by turning on “compatibility view” to get the call outs to line up with the picture), but gives you a good idea of where they are going.

It would appear that much of what the OP told us has come to be.


----------



## 276 (Jul 10, 2009)

They really don't look bad at all!


----------



## tnuckels (Jul 11, 2009)

Questions & observations …

I guess the intro “splash” isn’t ready, as pressing play on the root directory screen gets you nothing.

Interesting that despite still being rated IPX4, Petzl claims the lights will continue to work even if water gets in. Hover over the water resistant icon and read the help balloon. Maybe that’s why they appear to have semi-transparent bodies now, so you can see if there’s any H2O in there. Wonder how well that’s gonna’ work in real life? 

It’s nice that they support all standard primary and rechargeable battery types. Wonder if all the new lights contain the RXP fuse fix, or if they came up with some other workaround?

Wonder if they’ll still offer the green and blue diffusers for the XP, now that red is taken care of on the Plus and above lights, or if the colored lenses for the lesser models will still be available?

Wonder if the ADAPT system stayed the same, or is new to accommodate the newly similar-across-the-product-line rear body compartment. The faces appear different to get the most out of the LED arrangement within the particular light. Bummer only the XP gets the diffuser, but I guess you have to differentiate your product line somehow.

I hate to see BOOST go, as well as a medium setting. How hard could it be to allow medium within the IC’s programming and maybe add an extra SMC on the board?

A 50lm + red Zipka should make the ultra-light campers happy. 

I like the new button and UI, as well as the easier battery compartment, but the new colors make them mostly look like kid’s toys ... or yummy candy for CPFers. Only the black/grey looks serious and though I love all things green, most of their green lamps, ranging from “lime green” to “pistachio”, look just about silly.

I wish they’d say whose LEDs they are using, but as quick as things are changing I suppose it’s a good idea not to specify.

BTW, I detest their new website design that forces an artificial SPORT / PROFESSIONAL dichotomy on users looking for information. How the hell am I supposed to know where the cutoff is in a line of products?


----------



## Ralph_S (Jul 11, 2009)

Other than a few quibbles below, I like the Tikka2 changes.

I too will miss the medium brightness mode. I use headlamps for extended periods, and I repeatedly adjust the brightness to the situation, for the sake of run time. I hope that Petzl will reconsider this decision. 

The Tikka2 site says, "They work even when water enters the lamp body." That had been noted earlier by a couple of posters on the caving site http://www.forums.caves.org. Maybe the circuit boards are coated, which is a good practice in general. 

I hope that the Tikka2 XP will allow the light to be tilted down further, while still under control of a ratchet or friction. I wear trifocal glasses, so I have to look through the lower part of my glasses to see something close. With the current Tikka XP Adapt, I have to turn the light down beyond the stop that allows opening of the battery compartment. In that position, the angle is not controlled, and the weight of the light makes it flop forward to its maximum downward angle. 

Also, I may put the headlamp on upside down and aim the light at the ceiling (for example in front of my bathroom mirror), to get a dim but very diffuse light. Again, I want to be able to control the angle. 

I hope that the easy mounting of the new Adapt system does not mean that the lights easily can be bumped out of the mounts (hinges).

I too think that some of the colors are too flamboyant. 

I do not like the slightly wider top strap on the mid-2008 Myo XP, which makes it difficult to slide the strap through the adjustment clip, whose width was not increased. Light tension and no twisting are placed on the top strap, so a wide strap is not useful, but makes the light slightly bulkier to stow. It is the horizontal strap that benefits from some width as it resists twisting which occurs because the light and battery compartment stick out. So, I hope that the wider top strap is not used for any new Tikka XP Adapt system.

I realize that a while ago, some people asked Petzl for a wider top strap on the Myo XP, but I think that request was not justified by the physics. (If you don't want to think about physics, consider a common female undergarment: the back strap in general is wider than the shoulder straps.) Petzl had the top strap right to begin with, for example in 2007.


----------



## bansuri (Jul 11, 2009)

3xAAA is a dealbreaker. Obviously the products are already designed, in manufacturing, the whole distribution chain is in place and my little comments don't mean anything, but I, and I'll admit I'm no expert, cannot understand why they would make them with this battery size across the whole line?


----------



## tnuckels (Jul 12, 2009)

bansuri said:


> 3xAAA is a dealbreaker.


I’ve head this expressed often, but usually unaccompanied by an explanation.

The only time I’ve had a problem with 3xAAA is when this power source requires an awkward, often fragile and prone to making poor electrical connection, battery carrier. After dealing with this setup in some of my earlier, inexpensive Garrity lamps, I will never buy another product that incorporates this design. Yes, 3xAAA allows for a less sophisticated electrical design, but so long as it works reliably, it seems a relatively light weight, easy to find, inexpensive arrangement that gives acceptable runtimes. 

Sure, AA is arguably a better power source, but it also increases size & weight, or if you drop to 2xAA to compensate to the first two drawbacks, electrical complexity will increase to allow for boosting the power to the LED(s). From a manufacturing standpoint, simple will probably always win, especially in an enrty level lineup of products.

I have 3xAA (RXP) and 4xAA (no-name) headlamps and they serve a purpose, but find myself reaching for the smaller 3xAAA (EOS & XP) lamps more often than not for most common tasks. 

If there is there some other inherent (read: not based simply on a manufacturer’s design choices) problem with the 3xAAA power source that I am unaware of, please enlighten me. Odd number of batteries on the charger doesn’t countJ.


----------



## half-watt (Jul 12, 2009)

bansuri said:


> ...I, and I'll admit I'm no expert, cannot understand why they would make them with this battery size across the whole line?



Not sure that Petzl's entire "line" is going 3xAAA.

The Tikka/Zipka series has always been 3xAAA. It's Petzl's smaller series of HLs that competes against similar HLs from Princeton Tec, Black Diamond, Mammut, PrimeLite, and Brunton to name just some of the bigger names in HLs (my apologies to any if I didn't name their favorite Mfr). They all use 3xAAA for power in these smaller HLs.

The Myo series is 3xAA and the Duo series 4xAA (or 4C for the DuoBelt versions).

In addition, there is there top-of-the-line rechargeable Ultra series.


BTW, "series" is the actual name on the Petzl website for each of their various classes (or series) of lights.

So, you might say that the Petzl "line"[-up] is composed of several "series" of HLs.

Hope this helps


----------



## bansuri (Jul 12, 2009)

half-watt said:


> Petzl "line"[-up] is composed of several "series" of HLs.


Sorry. Series it is.



tnuckels said:


> If there is there some other inherent (read: not based simply on a manufacturer’s design choices) problem with the 3xAAA power source that I am unaware of, please enlighten me. Odd number of batteries on the charger doesn’t countJ.



AAs are ubiquitous, contain more energy per cell, and the NiMH options are far better, that's enough for me.
No doubt they make some nice headlamps, but I wouldn't reach for one of these in an emergency unless you had a spares carrier. AAA doesn't do it for me. Personally, I would take the penalty of the rear-mounted AA's of the MYO _series. _As always, YMMV.


----------



## hopkins (Jul 12, 2009)

aaa batteries are very lightweight so taking along an extra set of 3 is an easy choice. AA's are a bit heavier but also not too extreme to take an extra set.

Although we've blogged to exhaustion the curious and probably harmless
radio frequency emissions that leak from regulated headlamps I still like
my original Myo Xp and it does not emit.

Is the new Myo Xp also radio quiet? I can imagine the white RXP will make an AM radio
squeal like a banshee with that custom controller chip inside.

Anyone confirm this. Just curious.


----------



## tnuckels (Jul 13, 2009)

bansuri said:


> AAs are ubiquitous, contain more energy per cell, and the NiMH options are far better, that's enough for me.


Most stores that sell batteries seem to carry both AA & AAA, though perhaps more devices run on AA, requiring wider availability. As gadgets become less power hungry this distinction may lessen, with C & D cells becoming harder to find.

I am a huge fan of rechargeables and the AA format and find it difficult to get worked up over AAA batteries when AAs that offer about 2½ x the power can be had for the same money. The notion I mentioned, and that *half-watt* clarified, was that these are Petzl’s entry level lights, are meant for entry-level, everyday tasks, and as such a small, light weight, and more simply designed headlamp works well.




bansuri said:


> … but I wouldn't reach for one of these in an emergency unless you had a spares carrier.


Nor would I prefer to reach for one of these to go into battle, but fortunately 95% of my life is conducted without the sense of urgency and dire consequences of a life & death situation. I mostly use these 3xAAA lamps around the house, camping, and on vacation, but I have used them to change a flat at night and do some family caving. However, when I think of the qualities needed to adequately perform more dangerous tasks, reliability and performance, I’ve not been let down by them on either count.

As the situation becomes more serious, so too are my precautions, carrying enough extra batteries and headlamps on the family caving trips to send me straight to the bottom, should I ever slip near deep water. Eventually I bought an up “series” light from Petzl, the MYO RXP, because I wanted to do somewhat more serious caving and balked at carrying quite so many levels of redundancy each time.

For me, however, none of benefits of better power sources detract from the day to day usefulness and pleasure that I derive from these little headlamps.



hopkins said:


> Is the new Myo Xp also radio quiet? I can imagine the white RXP will make an AM radio squeal like a banshee *with that custom controller chip* inside. Anyone confirm this. Just curious.


Hi *hopkins*. RXP produces a pulsating hum when moved close to the speaker of a radio tuned to AM frequencies, whereas my Tikka XP is quiet, save the popping noises made when changing lighting levels. Sorry, no wailing banshees. However, if I align my fillings just right I think the chip is telling me I love all things French.:laughing:


----------



## half-watt (Jul 13, 2009)

3xAAA HLs are popular with LW and UL backpackers, amongst others, due to their generally smaller size cp. to AA powered HLs, and their lighter weight. That 'bout sums up the two major reasons for their popularity.

Even though I used to do ultralight backpacking (5-10 lbs of gear not counting food, fuel, and water), not all, but most of the time I would opt for a 3x or 4x AA (not 3xAAA) powered HL, due to the amount of before sunrise hiking that I would do. Moving about at the coldest time of the day (er...night) means that my body is generating heat at the coldest times, and I can skimp a tad on insulating clothing and use a slightly warmer rated sleeping bag and so carry less weight - always a plus. This weight gain was probably offset by using a HL that weighed twice what a 3xAAA HL would weigh, but the longer burntimes of the AA cells was required for my purposes. Depending upon how many days I would be out and about, spare cells may or may not be required when starting out with fresh AA's.

If I was backpacking with others, then a 3xAAA HL would be fine for me as most don't like to get up at 0200 when "nature calls" and also decide to break camp and set out on the trail at this time.


REG. VERSUS UNREG.
--------------------
As far as reg. v. unreg. HLs go. Personally, I don't care. Unless there is something else in the design and functioning of a HL that makes it stand out from the competing models, or makes it more appropriate for my use, it doesn't matter to me. Why? 

One often uses a HL when camping or backpacking for extended periods of time - whether in camp or out on the trail. In an unreg. design, the light o.p., even on HIGH, drops off so slowly that the eye and brain DON'T really notice the drop-off until it's maybe at just 25% of its starting value and this often only occurs after HOURS of continuous use. Only then does one typically notice that things out in the distance are not being perceived clearly or at all (depending upon the distance one is trying to see). This was certainly true for me where on trails in dense forest I could typically only see 30' to 60' (~9m to 18M), and really only needed to see this far to follow an unfamiliar trail.

You see, it's different out there, when one is NOT focusing on a fixed point at a fixed distance (in which case the dimming light would be notice far more quickly). Out there, the "scenery", so to speak, is constantly changing as one moves along the trail. There is, generally, no fixed point of reference for one's memory to retain and compare to. Hence, it is often, in my experience, only at around the 25% mark for HIGH output, and maybe a higher percent, ~50%???, for MEDIUM output (but MED on most HL burns a lot longer, even to the 50% mark, than one would use the HL continuously) - remember these HLs are NOT like flashlights as they generally use more cells for power than a typical 1-cell or 2-cell handheld and, generally don't produce the MAX lumen output of some flashlight (e.g. 190-200 lumens, esp. since they don't use CR123A's, but consider also that some 2xAA handhelds, today, put out 170-190 lm, e.g., the Quark 2xAA model). 

I'm sure that someone may find an exception to my above comments. So, please, take them as GENERALIZATIONS, or the "NORM", and NOT cast-in-concrete absolutes. I wish to start NO arguments with anyone - YMMV, i.e., you know best, from your experiences, what works best for you in your applications. What I've mentioned above comes soley from my own 40+ yrs of hiking experiences in my limited applications (which may be diff. than yours).

Lastly, the fact that unreg. designs often burn longer than competing reg. designs, IMO, is generally NOT a big selling point OTHER THAN for a HL that is used primarily, or solely, for task/proximity lighting. Why? The long "tail-off" of an unreg. design is too dim and NOT useful for nighttime navigation. Hence, in this regard is not better than a reg. design in terms of burntime, IMO (YMMV). Now, again, for task/proximity lighting purposes the long tail-off of an unreg. HL is quite beneficial, IMO.

'Nuff said. Happy trails.


----------



## Stevie (Jul 14, 2009)

I think Petzl have been quite innovative here, I like the flip up diffusers for spill and I like the idea of the red LED for preserving night vision whilst reading a map at night.

However, what kills the sale for me is the throw and runtime data. If you look at the new Tikka 2 XP, when you initially turn it onto "high" you get a 60m beam. But after just 30 minutes, this beam is reduced to 38m. After 10 hours its down to 17m.

From my own experiences night hiking, about 30m throw is nice. After a night out with the Tikka XP, the 17m range after 10 hours just wouldn't be enough. It's wouldn't do for me putting it on "low" either to try and conserve power, as the throw is again about 17m in this mode. I think Petzl have missed a trick not opting for a "medium" mode also...

Some say that you don't notice the un-regulated lamps dimming - but I bet I would notice the 37% beam drop on high after just 30 minutes use.

This is why I'm going to buy the upgraded PT Eos. Duracell copper tops give 10 hours of 30m regulated light on "medium". Put lithiums in and you can get 6 hours of regulated light on "high" with a 54m beam, which as many know reputedly has a nice bit of spill as well as throw.

Petzl haven't given data for use with lithium batteries, so will be interesting when they do as they say these lamps can be used with lithium cells also.

Just my personal opinions.....sorry Petzl fans!


----------



## half-watt (Jul 14, 2009)

lack of a medium mode is probably to compete with the PT Eos 2-mode HL. 

in both cases, i'm with you - it's unwise to drop a MED mode (as i've mentioned in other Threads about this HL). Often HI is overkill, but LOW is insufficient. MED often makes the perfect output level.

side-by-side, or even one-after-the-other, you will definitly be able to notice -37% light output. However, when you're on the move and have no fixed frame of reference and the light is very gradually decreasing your eye and brain just accomodate to the decreasing output. I wouldn't say that there is absolutely no circumstance on the move outdoors that you wouldn't be able to notice it, but generally you just won't until it gets dimmer, maybe about -50% on MED output, and even -75% on HIGH output. 

Only when the light output becomes too dim to accomplish the purpose for which you are using it will you really find it objectionable. There is no hard and fast rule as too how much drop-off is noticeable in this regard. My experience using HLs for nighttime trail navigation is as stated above. 

However, in your case, a 17m distance being too little is more liberal than my 9m (minimum and still very, very usable for my purposes) to 18m (almost never need for more when navigating unfamiliar trails in my neck of the woods), and so, i can't knowledgeably speak to your situation which you know best. Therefore, take my recommendations with a grain of salt, please (YMMV).


----------



## hopkins (Jul 14, 2009)

Thats good news about the RXP's minimal RF output. The interest I have
is in wasted power. ie how big a fraction of battery power is being converted
to the visual frequencies we can see, rather than waste heat or acting as a little radio station broadcasting your location in the radio bands.


----------



## tnuckels (Jul 14, 2009)

I do not think you can safely make a comparison from one manufacturer’s website to another, much less confidently base a purchase on it. There are simply too many variables involved. This is why we rely on third party reviewers like Consumer Reports, or *selfbuilt* here on CPF, because they will use the same criteria and methodology to perform each evaluation. Unfortunately, headlamps are still the ******* stepchildren of lighting, and no such information is available … and NO, you can’t volunteer me for the job.

I don’t pretend to be an expert, but let me throw out a few of the variables that may be involved in the process of turning data into the “information” presented on one of the webpages cited:

Was the test unit: cherry picked for best performance, a randomly picked sample, or does it represent an “average” unit based on a statistically significant number of sample units, or is it a theoretical unit that is based on the calculations of the engineers that designed the light of what it “should” be capable of?

What was the chemistry of the battery used in testing: as only Alkaline, NiCd, NiMH, & Li-Ion are allowed (oddly, PT's website omitts rechargeables for the EOS, but it's probably just an oversight) by the two cited manufacturers, Princeton Tec and Petzl, we can limit this to these 4 types. Each chemistry will potentially give a different high lumen mark and will exhibit differing output curves on regulated and non-regulated lights.

What was the capacity of the batteries used: AAAs run from, what, probably 500mAh for crappy cells to over 1000mAh for top shelf brands? That’s quite a range for the pool of energy available, will certainly affect runtime, and may change output figures, depending on how the light’s smarts are designed to handle differing situations.

How was the output curve measured to “50%”: by dividing the highest (lumen or distance) level achieved in half and seeing how long the light lasts to get to that figure, or would dividing the area under the graph of (lumens or distance) in half give a different result given that the final tails are often quite long?

What are the figures measuring: emitter lumens, lumens out the front, number of lumens at some specified distance, or some number of lumens needed to “see” down range that is then equated to a lighted distance?

What was the test temperature: batteries perform differently under different conditions.
Was the tested unit cooled: as do the LEDs and related circuitry in the test unit.

And finally each manufacturer will present their products according to a company philosophy that may skew the data in one of several directions. We all know of manufacturers (far too many) that overstate or misguide us with attention grabbing figures. Then there are those that try and give an honest assessment of their product. And lastly there are those rare birds that understate their product, confident that their facts are good enough to impress discerning users.

Whew! 

Nothing against PT (I like my EOS-R a lot), but to Petzl’s credit they do try to make some of this clear in their PDF files, which include the following information:

OLD TIKKA XP 
*TEST: *_20°C Alcaline batteries_

NEW TIKKA2 XP
*TEST: *_20°C_

BOTH
*Lighting distance*
_Petzl based all measurements around a value of 0.25 lux. This value is comparable to the light of a full moon on a clear night._
*Light duration*
_Petzl stops measuring the duration when the light output falls below 0.25 lux at a distance of 2 m, because we consider the lamp to be unusable below this level._
*Light quantity: lumen (luminous flux)*
_The measure of luminous flux indicates the total quantity of light emitted in all directions. This measurement is complementary to the lighting distance. In effect, different lighting sources can shine the same distance with different intensities._

If similar information was available at the PT site, I was unable to find it.


The more I think about it, the more I feel that not having a medium setting was a BAD IDEA, as it was often the correct setting for the unique situation at hand and the personal preference of the user.

I concur with *half-watt* that, because you are usually running a headlamp over a longer period of time, you don’t really notice the output drop-off, unless you were using the light solely for long distance identification. Your eye’s night capabilities adjust and seem to fill in a lot of the blanks. My experience may be mitigated as I only use high capacity NiMH batteries which produce a flatter output curve, but I am usually startled when my Tikka XP flashes its low battery warning.


----------



## half-watt (Jul 15, 2009)

tnuckels, excellent post. extremely informative and well worded. excellent point you brought up about NiMH cells. glad you mentioned it.

the only thing that i might add is that, unless i'm mistaken (and please correct me if i am wrong), PT may have adopted, as has Black Diamond, the "European" HL manufacturers approach to determining both distance and burntime for their HLs. 

the standard uses a nearly useless (other than for task/proximity lighting purpses), 0.25lux (the approximate light produced by a full moon on a clear night, is their claim) at, i be forgettin' 1 or 2 meters. 

i have some real problems with this standard. while it's fine for task/proximity lighting (3 to 6 feet/ 1 to 2 meters), it simply won't work when one is on the move in the dark. sure, one might also be able to walk a simple path with the light trained at their feet, but if you need to see out 15-20 feet or more or have any confidence that you haven't missed anything like a trail marker indicating a bend in a trail, then forget it.

furthermore, long before one reaches the 0.25 lux "cut-off", the light output will have, sometimes, many hours before (especially if it's unregulated and running on alkaline cells) ceased to be "useful" for nighttime navigation of nearly any sort - except, perhaps, slowly walking that simple, clearly delineated, non-technical foot path with the light aimed at or near the place of your next footstep.

instead, i wish HL Mfr's adopted a dual standard - keep the 0.25 lux for any task/proximity lighting uses, but also adopt a 50% of starting output for non-task/non-proximity lighting purposes (similar to what is pretty much "standard" among some, not all, flashlight manufacturers). since many HLs are used for both purposes (i.e., proximity and distance lighting), this is, to my way of thinking, the only approach to "specs" that really makes sense if one's SPECS are to be informative and meaningful to a potential buyer/user. The burntime/distance matrix that one often encounters on the packaging or inserts of Petzl HLs (and also some Mammut HLs that i own; also, i seem to recall BD including such with the latest HLs i purchased from BD last year) goes a long way of accomplishing this goal, but I could still wish for a printed in black-and-white 50% number as there is a big time gap b/t the matrix's 30min mark and the 10h mark, and, for that matter, the 30h mark on the matrix. This matrix is fine for lower o.p. levels, but on HIGH, many lights don't make it to the 10h mark and, thus, one is left wondering, when the light reached the 0.25lux mark (much less, the undisclosed 50% of starting o.p. level mark) or when it just flat out "died", necessitating a battery change.

personally, i find the 50% mark a, generally, useful SPEC. very often, at 50% (other than some of my uses on HIGH where minus 75% of the starting o.p. still works for my uses) the light o.p. is no longer fulfilling its original purpose, or at the very least is quite noticeably dimmer in many applications.

'nuff said.


----------



## hopkins (Jul 16, 2009)

There may be some situations where a desperate person may choose to use that last
0.25lux output. One possible instance is you need to hike out to the car, and the batteries are drained to that 0.25lux output. Holding the HL in the hand helps to get it closer to the roots and rocks you need to avoid on the trail

In the Sierra's I've used a light in this drained state to see in the deep
shadows when passing overhanging trees, and relied on the stars to see the trail when in the open. When your eyes get really dark adapted that 0.25lux
is a face plant savior. 

So Petzl is right but not what anyone should look forward to .


----------



## jankj (Jul 16, 2009)

Originally Posted by *cave dave* 

 
_There is a battery death spiral effect with regulated lights. As the voltage in the battery drops the current demand goes up which causes the voltage to sag even more and the current demand to go up, etc. High current draws like this on alkalines are very inefficient at the battery._




uk_caver said:


> That can certainly be true of some regulated drivers, and may be true of the ones you most often encounter, it isn't necessarily true of all of them.



If the light output is constant, the death spiral of _"lower voltage - need higher current"_ is present. Period. You have X hours of light, and don't fool yourself into believing that you will have X/2 hours if you put in batteries with 50% of their capacity. 

But not all regulated lights are designed to provide constant output while sucking the last remaining juice out of the batteries. Some regulated lights have a loooong, diminishing _"tail"_ output curve. You may call this _"moon mode"_, or you may call this to _"drop out of regulation"_. It should provide you with the same benefits as an unregulated light, i.e. a dim light that slowly gets dimmer, but (almost) never dies. It may or may not be as efficient as unregulated, I don't know. 


I would prefer a headlamp that was regulated with perhaps 50-70% of the batteries, and unregulated for the remaining 30-50%. Best of both worlds... Don't know if that's physically phosible, though. 


Another point: Why don't more headlamps starts with low on first? Cycling through high mode destroys my night vision, and if anyone else borrows my lamp it also drains the batteries. To my knowledge, zebralight is the only light where the low comes on first. I'm a big fan of starting out low, then add more light if you need it.


----------



## kwieto (Jul 16, 2009)

jankj said:


> To my knowledge, zebralight is the only light where the low comes on first. I'm a big fan of starting out low, then add more light if you need it.



Mammut also. 
I don't remember how in the lower models, but X-zoom definetly, so I suppose that rest of them is designed same way as X-zoom is.

Second plus is that the emergency light (in X-zoom it is not strobe but special code callled "alpine emergency signal") is swithed on different way than the normal cycle LO-MID-HI.
I don't count how many times I flashed my eyes after unitnentionaly entering strobe in Myo...


----------



## Woods Walker (Jul 16, 2009)

Anyone know if there is a heatsink in the myo RXP. I was thinking of getting.


----------



## tnuckels (Jul 16, 2009)

jankj said:


> To my knowledge, zebralight is the only light where the low comes on first. I'm a big fan of starting out low, then add more light if you need it.


The Myo RXP is programmable, so allows you to set the lighting order to whatever pattern you like, and from a pallet of 10 lighting levels.




Woods Walker said:


> Anyone know if there is a heatsink in the myo RXP. I was thinking of getting.


As *Szemhazai *is fond of taking his brand new toys apart, you can look HERE to see the RXP disassembled. The combination of the star’s aluminum heatsink, plus the additional aluminum heatsink inside the case, plus the 3 vents in the case seems to work well. Petzl says the light will step down to protect itself from excess heat, but I’ve yet to have this happen.


----------



## Woods Walker (Jul 16, 2009)

Thanks for the info.


----------



## tnuckels (Aug 17, 2009)

I’m seeing the ’09 Tikka 2 lights available for pre-order, plus some discounts on the older line.:green::green:


----------



## diamondback (Aug 27, 2009)

can someone confirm if the E47PBY is the old or the new tikka plus?
and the E43PBY? Can't find it on the net:mecry:
And if someone knows how to know it, it'd be welcome


----------



## tnuckels (Aug 27, 2009)

It appears that these are *B*)lack & *Y*)ellow versions of the older model Tikka (E43P) and Tikka+ (E47P). A simple Google turned up these results.


----------



## half-watt (Aug 28, 2009)

REI has them in stock. Noticed them last week and placed an order which arrived today.


----------



## tnuckels (Aug 28, 2009)

New product numbers follow:

Tikkina2 – E91P, E=electric blue, O=orange, L=lime green, F=French rose
Tikka2 – E93P, S=storm gray, T=tropical blue
Zipka2 – E94P, S=storm gray, T=tropical blue
Tikka Plus2 – E97P, M=mystic gray, P=pistachio
Zipka Plus2 – E98P, M=mystic gray, P=pistachio
Tikka XP2 – E99P, G=graphite, I=iris

Append the appropriate color letter to the end of the base model number.


----------



## tnuckels (Aug 29, 2009)

half-watt said:


> REI has them in stock. Noticed them last week and placed an order which arrived today.


Wha-d-yu-git:shrug:? I look forward to your first impressions, especially in comparison to some reference light.


----------



## half-watt (Aug 29, 2009)

tnuckels said:


> Wha-d-yu-git:shrug:? I look forward to your first impressions, especially in comparison to some reference light.



Tikkina2 – E91P, E=electric blue
Zipka2 – E94P, S=storm gray
Zipka Plus2 – E98P, M=mystic gray
Tikka XP2 – E99P, G=graphite


no report yet - only checked them out to make sure all worked. 


initial impressions: 

can't stand the flashing modes in the Zipka2, Plus2, and XP2. why not stow them out of the way and require a 3 to 5 sec press and hold to activate (similar to the 2s press and hold to switch the Plus2 and XP2 into and out of RED LED mode, i.e. toggle b/t white LED and red LED).

nice switch feel on all models., including the Tikkina2 2-stage mechanical (based upon feel - i haven't examined the innards) switch.

plenty bright on fresh cells for my purposes.

would like the XP2 in a Zipka format instead of only in Tikka format - same for the Tikkina2.

redesigned battery compartment and batt. compartment latch is much nicer than prev. versions. cells actually stay put now when inserting them (those "easy out" straps that lay under the cells are gone).


that's all for now.


----------



## tnuckels (Aug 29, 2009)

Damn man … you don’t fool around!

Does it appear that there is any compatibility between the front bodies and rear battery covers to mix and match Zipka retractor, “strap” and rear end onto something like a Tikka 2 XP body and front end?

Petzl finally got their INTRO flash up and running. Kinda cute to watch.

Look forward to more info, as I’m on the fence about getting the new Tikka 2 XP or buying the old Tikka XP HAZLOC and dropping in a new SSC P4 U2SWOH star. Its hard to think which is more useful, a red led built in, or a medium setting and boost mode, especially when I’ve got a set of the colored filters & holders for the older model.


----------



## half-watt (Aug 30, 2009)

tnuckels said:


> ...Does it appear that there is any compatibility between the front bodies and rear battery covers to mix and match Zipka retractor, “strap” and rear end onto something like a Tikka 2 XP body and front end?...Petzl finally got their INTRO flash up and running. Kinda cute to watch...I’m on the fence about getting the new Tikka 2 XP or buying the old Tikka XP HAZLOC and dropping in a new SSC P4 U2SWOH star. Its hard to think which is more useful, a red led built in, or a medium setting and boost mode, especially when I’ve got a set of the colored filters & holders for the older model.



i had the same thought on compatibility. i filed the thought away for next weekend as this weekend was all spoken for.

many thanks for the info on the Petzl video ad.

my opinion is that red is *not* very useful. Not since my military service has red been really necessary. A 0.2-0.5 lumen white light source suffices for me for low light. If i really need red light, a Photon Microlight is just fine for task/proximity red lighting. Medium and boost is much more useful, IMO.

i'd definitely go with the modded Tikka XP.


----------



## Szemhazai (Aug 30, 2009)

I already have the Tikka 2 XP in my hands... review in progress 

*Tikka 2 XP - review*.
 https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/240780

*Tikka 2 Plus - review*.
 https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/232880

*Myo RXP - review*.
 https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/216601


----------



## Woods Walker (Aug 31, 2009)

Szemhazai said:


> I already have the Tikka 2 XP in my hands... review in progress


 

That was a darn good review too. :twothumbs So far the only new Petzl that has me interested is the Myo RXP. I don't have any 3xAA headlamps. Also think they took care of the NiMH issues. Guessing I would use lithiums or LSD.

http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/headlamps/myo-series/myo-rxp


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Aug 31, 2009)

gajslk said:


> Sorry, no regulation, no sale. Better luck next year.


+1!

Very well said.


----------



## El_Canyon (Sep 1, 2009)

The web page for the Tikka2-XP says it is compatible with lithium cells, which is a big plus for me:

http://www.tikka2.com/produit-tikka-XP.php


----------

