# Has the LED finally reached HID out put?



## Northern Lights (Jan 5, 2012)

Recently I obtained a bicycle headlight that is also worn on a head band, a real "head light". It is running a cree xml t6 at 1200 lumens, they say.

I believe it as it puts to shame all my P7's, some DIY and others are Chinese, three on @50mm reflectors and one is even a tri-p7 on a Nuwai TM-800x3. 


more picts here: link

So now I see two tri-xml t6's that are on twoi 18650s wdhich limits run time and those lights are sold by DX. They rate them 3000 lumes. 

My HID N30 rated in the 3k lumen area is a spot and is useless up close and needs a difuser. The multi LED heads by nature are flood, area, lights.

I see the 3000 lumen flashlights more useful to me than spot lights at the same lumen output as I need light close, not a mile down the road. 

I wonder if these new tri-xml's will fit the bill of a floody spot light?


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## Mr. Tone (Jan 5, 2012)

I don't know about the DX tri-XML but the Dry brand has a lot of fans around here. Sbflashlights and cnqualitygoods sell the Dry 3 x XML in cool, neutral, and warm white. There is also a version that is direct drive on high. It would make a good floody spotlight with throw similar to a Dereelight DBS but way more lumens, of course.

As far as a single XML, my Thrunite Catapult V3 is driving it the full 3amps(per Cree) and it gets around 750 OTF lumens and 40,000ish candlepower. I also have a Titanium Innovations N30 and can easily say that a single XML fully driven is a long ways off from the output of my N30. The direct drive Dry 3-XML would probably be close in lumens output, though. It would have probably a 1/10 of the candlepower, but if lumens is all you want then 3-XML fully driven will get you close to N30 lumens. I do not know what kind of OTF the N30 would measure, if it would be as much a loss as the XML. If the N30 is around 3200 OTF then you would need 4-XML at 3amps each to achieve that. 

As a side note I am a huge fan of the XML and have 6 lights with that LED. All the following are neutral white-Thrunite Catapult V3, Thrunite Neutron 1A, Lumintop TD15X(2 of these), Spark ST460NW and Spark SD460NW.


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## Locoboy5150 (Jan 5, 2012)

Northern Lights said:


> I see the 3000 lumen flashlights more useful to me than spot lights at the same lumen output as I need light close, not a mile down the road.



I think that there will still be markets for both HID spotlights and powerful LED flashlights as both have different purposes and both do their jobs well. Spotlights, as you mentioned, are a very cost effective way to light up distant objects. LED flashlights that can shine as far as my HID spotlight are much more expensive. When illuminating up close things, then LEDs are the way to go in my book. Small LED flashlights are very cost effective now.

Since LEDs are getting larger in size, that doesn't add to increased throw distance. (At least that's been the case with Cree LEDs since the XR-E is still smaller than the newer XP-G and XM-L.) When it comes to throw distnace versus cost, it's still tough to beat a good old HID spotlight.


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## The_Driver (Jan 5, 2012)

The efficiency at higher power levelvs of 30W+ is definiteley not up top par. The brightest single led light with some throw, the varapower (turbo) does around 2000 otf lumens at way over 30 watts (45 maybe?). A normal 35W HID does 3500 lumens at 4300K and throws the same or even further with a bigger/better reflector. 

In addition to this if you want a light with 10,000 lumens or more there are no practical leds for this (plus you need gigantic heatsinks).

So no they haven't.


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## eh4 (Jan 5, 2012)

The problem is that the HID doesn't mind the heat, and the heat kills leds, right?
So for more and more, and more power dumped into making lumens the HID aught to be able to continue leading.
LED throwers are really appealing to me for their efficiency, maybe your power is limited by duration in the field or battery weight.


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## dudemar (Jan 5, 2012)

The_Driver said:


> The efficiency at higher power levelvs of 30W+ is definiteley not up top par. The brightest single led light with some throw, the varapower (turbo) does around 2000 otf lumens at way over 30 watts (45 maybe?). A normal 35W HID does 3500 lumens at 4300K and throws the same or even further with a bigger/better reflector.
> 
> In addition to this if you want a light with 10,000 lumens or more there are no practical leds for this (plus you need gigantic heatsinks).
> 
> So no they haven't.



I agree, but it's fair to say LEDs are much closer than they ever were since the first Arc. 

Back then it was only a dream, and now it's slowly but surely becoming reality.


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## stollman (Jan 5, 2012)

LEDs are definately getting more powerful. 

I own a MagicShine MJ-872 LED Helmet Light that puts out 1600 lumens. There is a company in Germany that makes a helmet light called MyTinySun that puts out 2700 lumens.

There is a guy on YouTube that has made a 100W LED flashlight that puts out 8000 lumens. I think he is working on a 500w LED flashlight.

LEDs have definately come a long way over the past 2 years.


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## mohanjude (Jan 5, 2012)

I have been fascinated by both LED and HID. Years ago when you had a 'powerful' falshlight the trade off was shorter battery life. It was always going to be the case that the more power, the more bulk (ie Maglite 6D) and shorter duration of operation on a charge or even worse a set of primaries. Then LED's came around and suddenly it was possible to have he cake and eat the cake. lately the LED's have become relative power hogs themselves consuming larger quantities of current. This has been matched with more lumens. What I am hoping is that we don't end up like the CPU game that was prevlaent 10 years ago where the CPU was getting more powerful but it was running hotter and the heatsinks were becoming towers.... There now appears to be a balance where CPU's are getting more powerful but also are designed to be optimised for the portable market. I think LED's have a place for general illumination and with 2000-4000 lumen models you can illuminate a wide area. However if it is throw you are after I find that HID's will beat the LED's at present with the razor sharp beam. Mohan


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## Patriot (Jan 6, 2012)

It was just a couple of years ago when it was the trendy discussion that the SST-90 was going to be the literal "death" of HID. Of course it hardly worked out that way despite the development of some interesting and quality products like the SR-90. "Output" as most of us know is three fold, luminous flux, throw, and color temperature. I do believe that the next generation of super diode will probably match HID lumen output in the 35W range and they're also working miracles with color temps with warmer bins. Still, I think LED is many years away when it comes to surface brightness and throw. 

There doesn't really seem to be any drive for the industry to rapidly develop tiny LED's with incredible surface brightness, rather they're more concerned with lumen output and efficiency without fretting the die size to any great extent, which makes logical sense. Unlike HID and Incan, aspherics focus the light from LED's pretty well so I'm guessing that at least for the short term, when higher lux is necessary from LED's, optics will be utilized. Personally, I really dig the small multi-LED lights like the RRT-3, TM-11 and others because they produce such a useful wide beam. These are great for walking, biking, caving, and multitasking, but where ultimate throw is required I think the HID will be on the leader boards for years to come. 

Some day I suppose there will be a requirement for a 7090-XP-E sized die emitting two-thousand lumens, which is about what it's going to take to beat long arc HID throw. Personally, I can hardly wait but realize that it could be an unexpectedly long time still.


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## Northern Lights (Jan 6, 2012)

eh4 said:


> The problem is that the HID doesn't mind the heat, and the heat kills leds, right?
> So for more and more, and more power dumped into making lumens the HID aught to be able to continue leading.
> LED throwers are really appealing to me for their efficiency, maybe your power is limited by duration in the field or battery weight.



Heat is a problem. Those comercially available tri-xml I refer to have very small heat syncs. If you look over the posts I did on the Nuwai Tri-P7 you will see I have a huge, double actually, heat sync and I get good service because of it.

(I built two, the second I never got off the benc because I belive there is either a short or the PWM based controller is bad. ' am looking for a deserving person to take over that light and finish it. I believe my modding days are over...)


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## Mr. Tone (Jan 6, 2012)

Another thing to consider is that you can always make bigger and more powerful incan and HID bulbs/ballasts. So even though a single LED might come to match a 35 HID in terms of lumens or candlepower their is always going to be a 50 watt HID, and then 75 watt, and so on and so forth. So for practical purposes you can always find or make a brighter single HID setup than with LED. 

Hopefully LED will surpass HID in terms of efficiency and surface brightness, but when it comes to maximum lumens a single LED will never truly surpass because there is always a more powerful HID setup, even if HID becomes less efficient. After that, there are short-arcs to think about!


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## dudemar (Jan 6, 2012)

Mr. Tone said:


> Another thing to consider is that you can always make bigger and more powerful incan and HID bulbs/ballasts. So even though a single LED might come to match a 35 HID in terms of lumens or candlepower their is always going to be a 50 watt HID, and then 75 watt, and so on and so forth. So for practical purposes you can always find or make a brighter single HID setup than with LED.
> 
> Hopefully LED will surpass HID in terms of efficiency and surface brightness, but when it comes to maximum lumens a single LED will never truly surpass because there is always a more powerful HID setup, even if HID becomes less efficient. After that, there are short-arcs to think about!



Agreed.


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## jh15 (Feb 4, 2012)

Does this discussion take into account that hid has a constant o duty cycle while LEDs can be pulsed?

Then because of persistance of vision, the LED could "look" like a certain brightness, but take lots less power.

I know the strobing could be annoying if too slow. Like some car taillights in run vs. stop mode.


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## ma_sha1 (Feb 4, 2012)

Here is a shoot out with the best led vs the best HID in hand held format,:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...attle-in-the-woods-XML-King-of-Throw-vs.-HIDs

assuming size are similar:
You can make led throw as far as HID
You can make LED flood as many lumens as HID (triple XML for example)
But you can't make led throw as many lumens in the beam as the HID does in a far projection.

lumens-in-the-beam is what separates Tool Throwers from Toy throwers IMHO, in the end, the HID won the shootout.


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## budynabuick (Feb 4, 2012)

Patriot said:


> It was just a couple of years ago when it was the trendy discussion that the SST-90 was going to be the literal "death" of HID. Of course it hardly worked out that way despite the development of some interesting and quality products like the SR-90. "Output" as most of us know is three fold, luminous flux, throw, and color temperature. I do believe that the next generation of super diode will probably match HID lumen output in the 35W range and they're also working miracles with color temps with warmer bins. Still, I think LED is many years away when it comes to surface brightness and throw.
> 
> There doesn't really seem to be any drive for the industry to rapidly develop tiny LED's with incredible surface brightness, rather they're more concerned with lumen output and efficiency without fretting the die size to any great extent, which makes logical sense. Unlike HID and Incan, aspherics focus the light from LED's pretty well so I'm guessing that at least for the short term, when higher lux is necessary from LED's, optics will be utilized. Personally, I really dig the small multi-LED lights like the RRT-3, TM-11 and others because they produce such a useful wide beam. These are great for walking, biking, caving, and multitasking, but where ultimate throw is required I think the HID will be on the leader boards for years to come.
> 
> Some day I suppose there will be a requirement for a 7090-XP-E sized die emitting two-thousand lumens, which is about what it's going to take to beat long arc HID throw. Personally, I can hardly wait but realize that it could be an unexpectedly long time still.




Hello Patriot. Don"t mean to be ot, but I was just looking at the lights in your sig-line and really like them. I would like to check-um out.
Could you produce a link if its not to much trouble for info on these lights? Thanks

Keith


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## siamese (Feb 4, 2012)

For the most apllications the LEDs will be the better choice in a few years. The efficiency is not all, more important is the colour temperature and especially the CRI. With CDM )Philips) or HCI/HQI (Osram) you get a CRI of >95, the efficient LEDs have about 70. There are much better LEDs with a efficiency of 40-50 lm/w, thats very good at all. 

But you'll never see a LED what gives you 165000lm from a volume of pea like the Osram HTI1500. So for all apllications where you need very much power at a compact size LEDs are completely improper. At last these are so few apllications that it is unintresting to develop LEDs in that direction. 

I'm a big fan of HID and I started very much bike light projects with HID bulbs - beginning from 35W to 1500W and from <3000lm to >100000lm. Also I have much LED lights, but with actual LEDs it is not possible to build a compact and bright spotlight to light a long distace without blinding yourself by the extreme light scatter.
The most compact lamp is 150W based on a OSram HTI 150 with a outer diameter of 55mm and a weight of 80g. It has a great spot and about 7000lm output (latest pictures on IBC http://fotos.mtb-news.de/s/24503 ) . Absolutely impossible with LED.

But when you see all the advanteges of LEDs, very simple to drive, no high voltages, dimmable, long lifetime, fast switchable etc. I'm sure HID will only survive for very special applications in future. It is the same actual with tubes for electonic applications. For pulsed power applications tubes (thyratron or ignitron) or spark gaps have no semiconductor replacements.

But what is more fascinating, a semiconductor conducting a few amps at 3V or an arc with a few thousand degrees Kelvin what converses on a lenghth of some millimter a few hunderet ore thousand watts into light and heat?

best regards

Thomas


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