# How many of you have something CNC in your home shop?



## kuksul08 (Nov 4, 2012)

My lathe is the first serious machine tool that I have owned (thanks to your guys' suggestions, I almost passed it up). I've learned a ton just by experimenting with it and making parts for friends. I added an angle plate, tightened up the gibs, and started doing some x-y-z machining on it too. Good fun and I'm learning what works and what doesn't. Rigidity and RPM are the main limiting factors when machining on a lathe. Anyway...

Now I want to move to something more advanced. I have endless ideas and love designing things, but doing everything manually and touching up with metal files is rather slow, tiresome, and limited. The logical next step is CNC in my mind. I have never actually programmed CNC first hand, but I understand how it is done. I've taken a class as well in which we used a CNC knee mill and Haas, both worked fine, but we didn't get into detail of writing, loading the program, setting initial coordinates and tool locations, etc.

So my main question is... how many of you have a CNC lathe or mill at your home shop? How feasible is it to have a machine like this in your garage: space, power, and money-wise? Does it make more sense to buy an older machine and retrofit it with ball screws and steppers with modern controllers, or buy a complete older CNC? I've spent a good deal of time on www.buildyourcnc.com and while these machines are cool for their use, I feel I'd be let down with their lack of rigidity if I ever tried to machine steel or aluminum at any reasonable rate. Of course, the logical question is "what are you going to use it for?". Basically, I want the machine initially for hobby use, and transitioning into low volume production for various products I would like to develop. High volume could be left to a dedicated shop, but my current setup is not even sufficient for prototyping.

Loaded question(s) I know. Feel free to share any related spec of input. This is my go-to place for reliable information. :candle:


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## precisionworks (Nov 5, 2012)

What's your budget for the machine?

Add in another X-many dollars for tooling. 

Seems like $5000-$10,000 will get a small CNC into a home shop (& then add tooling).


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## kuksul08 (Nov 5, 2012)

Well, I would be willing to spend in the $5k range for something complete or required a little electronics work to bring up to date. But if $10k would get me a more quality machine, that might be worth it. I can deal with tooling costs separately since that is assumed for any size machine.


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## Lyndon (Nov 5, 2012)

kuksul08 said:


> but my current setup is not even sufficient for prototyping.



What about your setup makes it not suitable for prototyping? Is it just speed? If so, you'll get faster with experience. Going by the amazing things I've seen built with "just a lathe" it's hard for me to understand that statement.

I don't have a lathe, but I do the reverse of what you do: I sometimes use my mill as a lathe. However, even my dinky little HF mini-mill does small volume production: that's the original reason I bought it.


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## kuksul08 (Nov 5, 2012)

Lyndon said:


> What about your setup makes it not suitable for prototyping? Is it just speed? If so, you'll get faster with experience. Going by the amazing things I've seen built with "just a lathe" it's hard for me to understand that statement.
> 
> I don't have a lathe, but I do the reverse of what you do: I sometimes use my mill as a lathe. However, even my dinky little HF mini-mill does small volume production: that's the original reason I bought it.



The main reasons are that it is too slow and I cannot do complex features such as external curves and tapered surfaces. The secondary drawbacks are that spindle speed and rigidity are on the low side for milling on a lathe. I figure if I'm going to spend thousands on a proper mill, it might as well ought to be CNC. I also toyed with the idea of a CNC lathe so that I could make external radii and profiling in one finishing pass.

I agree, you can make some amazing things with a manual machine, rotary table, some unique fixturing, and your imagination. It's just not time effective to spend that much time setting up when a machine could do it for you, don't you think? That being said, I think people should learn to do everything manually first before letting the computer do it for you. You learn a lot by feeling the feedback of the cutter through the knobs.


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## precisionworks (Nov 5, 2012)

kuksul08 said:


> ... I cannot do complex features such as external curves and tapered surfaces.



Internal & external radius cuts are easily made with a radius cutter & tapers are just as easily turned with a taper attachment. That's how machinists made parts for the 200 years preceding the introduction of numerical control.


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## kuksul08 (Nov 5, 2012)

Take, for example, these bicycle dropouts: http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/695292/5486412/0/1228269839/CNC_Milling.jpg

The external curves would be rather difficult manually.


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## darkzero (Nov 5, 2012)

> kuksul08 said:
> 
> 
> > ... I cannot do complex features such as external curves and tapered surfaces.
> ...



+1

All this Ti was all manual on my lathe. Short tapers using the compound slide.

snip...


The long taper on the handle was done with a taper attachment but the head & handle end was manual.

snip...


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## gadget_lover (Nov 5, 2012)

kuksul08 said:


> Take, for example, these bicycle dropouts: http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/695292/5486412/0/1228269839/CNC_Milling.jpg
> 
> The external curves would be rather difficult manually.



External curves are not as difficult as it seems IF the part does not have to mate with another part. As long as the parts are not side by side, the external dimensions are frequently done to very loose tolerances. 

The bike parts you linked to appear to have been carved by hand. It looks like each piece has a gusset welded or brazed to it. The only critical angles appear to be that of the gusset to the slot where the axle rides. The external curves look like they were cut with a bandsaw and then sanded to shape.

In the past, mass produced parts were made with jigs and fixtures that let you do all the critical dimensions with little or no measurements. I'm frequently amazed at the businesses that make fairly complex parts by moving parts by hand from one station to the next. "How it's Made" is a great TV show for picking up ideas for producing parts.

Dan


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## kuksul08 (Nov 6, 2012)

Hmm... so are you trying to talk me out of a CNC? I mean, they have their place don't they?


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## gadget_lover (Nov 6, 2012)

CNC has it's' place. It is a great way to make exactly identical complex shapes. Production runs benefit from identical results. Hand crafted.. not so much.  

You can substitute CNC milling for what has traditionally been done by multiple processes in production settings. Instead of forging, stamping, casting, welding or extruding a part, you can carve it in one step. It might actually take a longer to make using CNC, since you need to start with a block of material larger that the biggest feature of the part you are making. There is also the time needed to make the 3D model.

An interesting example of gratuitous CNC is the Apple Airbook case. There are videos showing how it is milled from a solid block. It could have been cast or stamped in a fraction of the time and expense. 

I find that having a mill, lathe, band-saws, belt sanders and welders have altered the way that I make things as well as the materials that I choose to use. 

I could, of course, be wrong on all of this. 

Daniel


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## kuksul08 (Nov 6, 2012)

I've seen that Apple video or something similar... it's awesome.

darkzero, that is all very impressive work. I respect work done manually that looks as flawless as that. I've done my own projects by hand that I can be proud of, and while the finished product is great, I've always dreamed of how I could have done it in 10 minutes (after setup) with a CNC.


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## darkzero (Nov 6, 2012)

Thanks. 

I for one wasn't trying to talk you out of CNC. Just trying to point out that conventional machining is great for prototyping & is not as limited as you think. May seem much more time consuming, difficult, & easy to scrap a part but conventional machines are very capable. Programming CNC can also be time consuming especially if you just need to do a quick few ops to modify an existing part. Would be so much quicker to do on a conventional machine.

Many large operations I've visited locally, have seen on TV, & online that are CNC equipped still have conventional machines running as well. I agree with Daniel's points. I don't have any experience personally with CNC, just what I've seen & the people I know. I won't go into what I think are the benefits of CNC but to sum it up in a home shop environment, IMO it really comes down to whether or not you want to mass produce more complex parts for a source of income. You can still do production work with conventional machines, just not as fast or complex. It may not worth going full blown CNC for the average hobbyist. Affordable CNC conversions would be more practical. 

I would love to go CNC but not now, I still need to learn, aside from can't afford something like that right now. Can't wait till my mill gets here that's on order! Somthing like a HAAS or Fadal is a huge investment! Check out smaller machines like a Tormach. They have limitations but they are great machines.


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## kuksul08 (Nov 6, 2012)

Thanks for the input. I take every bit of input whether or not it agrees with my previous conceptions. One thing that might make a difference is that I have extensive CAD experience and could easily learn CAM and any of the software issues. The part I struggle with is what brand and configuration is good for me. Obviously I cannot afford a $30k Haas, but I wouldn't spend $5k on some new Chinese junk that is going to be out of square and give me poor results.

Some additional research leads me to believe a used machine with broken electronics or something common (Bridgeport) that can be easily retrofitted is the way to go. What kind of mill did you order Will?

edit: Just checked out those Tormachs. They look very nice. Made in China but they appear well designed and supported.


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## precisionworks (Nov 7, 2012)

A local shop called me two or three months ago & wanted to sell their 1985 Mazak Quick Turn 10N. Machine was in decent shape for $2500 but it needed a $5000 control + ball screws, etc. Thousands of old machines like that that go for practically scrap value. Small & lightweight they are not, roughly 8000# on that old girl & she's pretty near the bottom of the food chain (8" chuck).


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## darkzero (Nov 7, 2012)

kuksul08 said:


> Thanks for the input. I take every bit of input whether or not it agrees with my previous conceptions. One thing that might make a difference is that I have extensive CAD experience and could easily learn CAM and any of the software issues. The part I struggle with is what brand and configuration is good for me. Obviously I cannot afford a $30k Haas, but I wouldn't spend $5k on some *new Chinese junk* that is going to be out of square and give me poor results.
> 
> Some additional research leads me to believe a used machine with broken electronics or something common (Bridgeport) that can be easily retrofitted is the way to go. *What kind of mill did you order Will?*
> 
> edit: Just checked out those Tormachs. They look very nice. Made in China but they appear well designed and supported.



I bought "new Chinese junk". 

What isn't made in China these days? If I did know what was US made these days I wouldn't be able to afford it anyway. Don't have the time nor wanted to mess around with looking for something used locally. I did look for a litte bit though. I'd love to have a BP (that's what I learned on) or a full size knee mill but I don't have the room for one & I wouldn't be able to move it around myself. I think I will be happy.


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## kuksul08 (Nov 7, 2012)

darkzero said:


> I bought "new Chinese junk".
> 
> What isn't made in China these days? If I did know what was US made these days I wouldn't be able to afford it anyway. Don't have the time nor wanted to mess around with looking for something used locally. I did look for a litte bit though. I'd love to have a BP (that's what I learned on) or a full size knee mill but I don't have the room for one & I wouldn't be able to move it around myself. I think I will be happy.



You know what I mean. The knockoff stuff that looks like the real deal but will probably cause you more hassle than it's worth. No doubt there is good stuff out there that is made in China, you just have to be careful to be sure the company has good QC over there.


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## darkzero (Nov 7, 2012)

kuksul08 said:


> You know what I mean. The knockoff stuff that looks like the real deal but will probably cause you more hassle than it's worth. No doubt there is good stuff out there that is made in China, you just have to be careful to be sure the company has good QC over there.



Yes, I know what you meant, hence the smiley. 

In shop class there were multiple BPs that I used the most, a very nice Sharp with Meehanite castings that everyone wanted to use, & a Ganesh that was a POS. In the 2 yrs that I was there I've never seen that Ganesh work properly. The power draw bar system always had issues & when it did work someone would soon get something stuck in the spindle from not using it correctly.

But Ganesh is local, it's right down the street from me close to Travers, MSC (Rutland), Fadal, & Machinery Exchange. I wonder how many times Ganesh would have to make trips to service the thing. My instructor (now retired & is when I stopped going) & the tool room guy absolutely hated that Ganesh. 

Which reminds me, I've been meaning to visit Machinery Exchange to see what they have. Maybe they might have something that interests you? I hear they are constantly moving used machinery so it might be a good idea to check them periodically. I know nothing about their pricing, their service, or the quality of machines they have though. There's also a machinery moving company right down the street from them too if someone happened to need the services. 

http://www.machineryexchange.net/


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## precisionworks (Nov 8, 2012)

kuksul08 said:


> ... just have to be careful to be sure the company has good QC over there.


Importers spec what they want & Chinese factories bid on the spec sheet - low bidder gets the job to build the machine. Plan on spending time to disassemble, clean out sand & casting grit, reassemble, adjust, make a few replacement parts, etc. on any lower cost machine. QC & lower cost are mutually exclusive. 



> ... with Meehanite castings ...


That a sure sign of a better quality machine. The license to cast Meehanite isn't cheap & Meehanite is a good indicator of a better quality machine.


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## PEU (Nov 9, 2012)

precisionworks said:


> A local shop called me two or three months ago & wanted to sell their 1985 Mazak Quick Turn 10N. Machine was in decent shape for $2500 but it needed a $5000 control + ball screws, etc. Thousands of old machines like that that go for practically scrap value. Small & lightweight they are not, roughly 8000# on that old girl & she's pretty near the bottom of the food chain (8" chuck).



No ballscrews, no cnc control, 1985 machine, whats still good in it? allen screws? 


Pablo
PS: for OP, I have a homemade CNC router and retrofitted many small cnc lathes.


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## kuksul08 (Nov 10, 2012)

What did you make your frame out of? Based on your experience, how much do you think it would cost to retrofit a 12x36 lathe?


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## gt40 (Nov 10, 2012)

kuksul08 said:


> What did you make your frame out of? Based on your experience, how much do you think it would cost to retrofit a 12x36 lathe?



Do you have access to a mill? That would be a starting point in any consideration of retrofitting. You will need a mill for making the mounts for the ballscrews etc. 

FYI, here is a link to a PM12x36 conversion so you can see what is involved:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical_mill_lathe_project_log/150555-pm_12x36_lathe_conversion.html

I think having both is nice because a manual is just faster for one off stuff sometimes. The cnc process of creating part on computer, cam process and setup takes a long time and as I am finding out with my cnc mill conversion, the learning curve is steep.


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## kuksul08 (Nov 10, 2012)

I don't have a mill, only a milling attachment for my lathe, which is useful only for light cuts and drilling - partially due to lack of rigidity and partially due to holding an end mill in a 3 jaw chuck.

I had actually seen that thread about the PM1236 before. The guy makes it sound really simple. I could deal with the design of motor mounts, doing the wiring, and learning the software. Selecting specific parts and motor drivers would take a lot of research.

I've been researching that Tormach PNC1100 a lot lately. I read through this thread: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormach_pcnc/158132-i_love_my_tormach_but.html and while it may be sub-par for a production environment, it looks like one of the best solutions for a home shop.


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## TexasLumens (Nov 11, 2012)

We have used CNC now for 14 years. It is an invaluable tool. Get a good one. We use manual machines sometimes for one off pieces. Sometimes the modeling, code generation, and machine setup of CNC can take longer than just making something on a manual machine. BUT... the process is time well spent if you even think that you might want more of that same part. We say here... "Code never spoils". We run parts that we modeled 5 & 6 years ago. We keep a library so we can find a part easily and get the job done. 

Unless you either have time to kill or just like tinkering with building something, I would suggest avoiding the DIY CNC machines and even converting manual machines to CNC. It usually ends up either not performing...or if you spend enough to make it perform, you could have purchased a good machine to start with. We just finished a conversion for a customer that was determined to convert a 30 year old Bridgeport to CNC... even after me explaining the above in detail..... he now has a fully functional, 30 year old, over priced boat anchor. He likes it...but for about 5% more...he could have had a nice, much more accurate machine with a lot more life left in it. And yes, I said "I told you so!". 

Good Luck! Dan.


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## precisionworks (Nov 12, 2012)

TexasLumens said:


> ... We just finished a conversion for a customer that was determined to convert a 30 year old Bridgeport to CNC... even after me explaining the above in detail..... he now has a fully functional, 30 year old, over priced boat anchor. He likes it...but for about 5% more...he could have had a nice, much more accurate machine with a lot more life left in it.


+1

Not hard to find a Bpt BOSS in nice condition for $1000. Spend another $14k and you have a museum quality mill that represents the state of the art in 1970


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## TexasLumens (Nov 12, 2012)

precisionworks said:


> +1
> 
> Not hard to find a Bpt BOSS in nice condition for $1000. Spend another $14k and you have a museum quality mill that represents the state of the art in 1970



This could have never been said any better!!!
Dan.


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## sortafast (Nov 13, 2012)

I too am passively looking to get some cnc stuff going for my business. I am probably going to convert the small lathe that I have once I get a 12-14" lathe. The small lathe will be dedicated to one op and will be well worth it from my perspective. But I really want to get a cnc mill of some sort. It would really help with production to have the cnc stuff in house. But if/when I go that route I will still have a manual mill. After using some cnc equipment in the past I definitely see the value of having both cnc and manual machines is the same shop. Makes life soooo much easier when you can just slap a part in the vise on the manual and take 2 seconds to make a tweak than to sit down, draw the part, do the cam, then do the set up. PITA for non production stuff IMO. Like with all things cars, fireams and such if you are stuck on buying something, find a way to buy both.


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## o0Mouse0o (Dec 19, 2012)

I have a Converted Proxxon MF70 which I converted to CNC myself. It's only really good for plastics and engraving on aluminium or PCB material and has a very small work area. But I got up and going for about £500. 
I hope to use it for making some acetal inserts to hold blocks of 4AA cells in a bored out 3D Maglite. 

I will to upgrade some time next year to a Taig which is a far more capable hobby mill. 
A Taig set up like this one friend has on his kitchen table will cost in the order of £2000 although I hope to spend less on steppers, controllers and brackets.


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## Xsend (Dec 24, 2012)

Hi all,

I was just wondering, how much will it cost for a good CNC machine.
What're the best ones to cut stainless steel solids? And tubes?


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