# Recommend a Handgun



## xochi (Sep 4, 2005)

Hey
The situation in N.O. has me thinking that I should buy a gun. I'd like recommends of handguns (revolvers and automatics) under a grand (alot under if possible). Lot's of accuracy and bang for the buck. 

Also, is titanium used much in handguns? Is it a good material for handguns?

What is a '1911'?

Oh, I want a gun to bring death to those at the other end when death on my end is a possibility. I would also plan on target/range shooting for fun.

TIA


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## Frangible (Sep 4, 2005)

xochi said:


> Hey
> The situation in N.O. has me thinking that I should buy a gun. I'd like recommends of handguns (revolvers and automatics) under a grand (alot under if possible). Lot's of accuracy and bang for the buck.
> 
> Also, is titanium used much in handguns? Is it a good material for handguns?
> ...



Revolvers, imo, suck. They're supposedly more reliable than automatics, yet testing has clearly shown some automatics such as Glocks and HKs to have greater than average reliability than revolvers. They are also slow to reload, don't hold very many rounds, and don't buffer recoil.

Titanium is used in the frames of revolvers but polymer is the preferred material for auto frames, and is more than durable enough.

A 1911 is a gun resembling the M1911, the first locked breech automatic that John M. Browning designed for the US military. It has sort of a cult following, but 1911s are unreliable relative to newer automatics, expensive, and don't hold much ammo. The military has discontinued their use.

If you want gun to defend yourself with, I would suggest a rifle or shotgun rather than a handgun. However, if size is of primary concern, a handgun can suffice.

Personally I would recommend a Glock of some type with night (tritium) sights. Glocks are accurate, have legendary reliability, a large number of aftermarket accessories, are very durable, and reasonably priced.

The most popular Glock model is the Glock 17, which holds 17 rounds of 9mm Luger. If you have smaller hands the Glock 19 is a better choice. 9mm is a very effective round and is cheap to practice with.

You can also get a larger caliber, which are more lethal on a per-round basis, but have drawbacks such as less capacity per magazine, more muzzle flip so slower followup shots, greater cost per round, etc etc.

Personally for a "SHTF" weapon I would buy a Bushmaster M4-style carbine, put an ACOG or holosight on it, and get a couple 30 round mags and fill them with XM193 ammo. A tax stamp and suppressor would be fun too...

Handguns make many sacrifices for size. If you're just going to have it sitting around the house and maybe being taken to the range, I'm not really sure a handgun is best.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed for my anti-1911s and revolverisms, but that's ok


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## nerdgineer (Sep 4, 2005)

Books - many books - have been written on this subject for like the last century, with several schools of opinions, one of which is fairly well represented by Frangible's response above. It would be helpful to know more about your situation and the potential disaster scenarios you envision. 

How much money - and time - are you willing to commit to your weapon and practicing with it. What do your local gun laws allow - or is that not a concern? Will it be just you taking care of yourself or will you have others to take care of? Are you planning to hunker down and ride it out or will you be moving out? Do you live in an urban or rural environment?

Rifles provide power, range and accuracy. Costs vary. Finding a place to practice can be hard if you don't live out in the sticks.

Military style autoloaders provide firepower (lots of shots), range and accuracy. Costs are high. Ditto above about finding a place to practice.

Shotguns provide power, good probability of hitting (something like accuracy), and firepower at short to medium ranges. Costs go from medium to very low. Ditto above about finding a place to practice.

Handguns in general are shorter range, lower power, and take much more practice to be able to hit anything with, although practice ranges/places are usually easier to find. But you can have one with you unobtrusively (EDC).

Don't have enough room to talk about revolvers vs. automatics (technically semi-automatics). That is literally a whole story in itself, but cops and military (who have to worry about multiple adversaries and get their ammo for free) universally use semi-autos except for hideout guns, maybe. Hunters and many hobbyists - who don't worry about multiple targets, pay for their own ammo, and sometimes want a lot of power - often choose revolvers. 

Kids and accidents are a serious issue if you're thinking of keeping your gun handy in case of bumps in the night. Less of an issue if it's locked away to be unlocked only in case of emergency.

Be aware that firearms are just like flashlights in that the enthusiasts will have a hard time picking a single gun/flashlight for all purposes. I expect the general recommendations will be to get several, for special purposes depending on your specific situation. Experts will also have very difffent perceptions of what costs are "reasonable". 

So, I applaud your initiative on this. Let us know some more about what you're thinking and maybe read up a little on this subject. Ask for book recommendations and I'm sure you will get many. 

It is a serious decision and deserves serious thought.


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## powernoodle (Sep 4, 2005)

You need a nice Ruger GP-100 .357 Magnum revolver. Simple to use, not too costy ($400 range), built like a tank, and will go bang every time. Stainless steel and difficult to rust. The 357 magnum has an unsurpassed reputation as a man stopper, if there is such a thing in a handgun caliber. Can be used for home defense, or lawfully carried.

Cut your teeth on a revolver. Learn the safety rules real good and shoot lots of ammo thru the thing. You can shoot .38 special thru it as well. Once you are a pro, consider a Glock or other semi-automatic. Glocks (of which I own many), have a light trigger and I don't think they are suitable for someone new to the game (if thats you). Anyone, even a seasoned shooter, is more likely to accidentally shoot himself in the foot with a Glock due to the light trigger. Of course, practicing the safety rules religiously prevents such a thing, but we are all human. Glock nuts, of which I am one, can be found at glocktalk.com . 

I'm not much of a fan of titanium revolvers, as the are so light that shooting them is like shaking hands with the devil - it hurts. Being very light, though, they are good for concealed carry.

If this is a gun that will never get carried, consider a Remington 870 shotgun. It will put a hole in someone the size of a grapefruit. Again, not costy, and very reliable.

As for the 1911, I have a few of them too, but it wouldn't be the first gun I'd go to for home defense and SHTF. Can be finicky, and a Glock is lighter, holds twice the ammo, doesn't rust like a steel 1911 can, and has fewer parts (and thus fewer parts to break). The folks that like 1911s _really, really_ like them, as they can have a crisp trigger which enhances accuracy. See the 1911 fanatics at 1911forum.com.

Back to the point, get a Ruger GP-100 or a mid-sized, K-frame Smith & Wesson revolver. Check 'em out at gunbroker.com 

Safe shooting!


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## Frangible (Sep 4, 2005)

> Cut your teeth on a revolver. Learn the safety rules real good and shoot lots of ammo thru the thing. You can shoot .38 special thru it as well. Once you are a pro, consider a Glock or other semi-automatic. Glocks (of which I own many), have a light trigger and I don't think they are suitable for someone new to the game (if thats you).



Why? If he's getting one just to learn to shoot, a Ruger Mk III is a far better choice for that. And I fail to see how a Glock isn't a perfectly acceptable first gun, they're simple to clean/maintain and use. Revolvers were cool and useful... in 1800. 



> If this is a gun that will never get carried, consider a Remington 870 shotgun. It will put a hole in someone the size of a grapefruit. Again, not costy, and very reliable.



Make sure you buy a model with a short barrel and a large magazine, the hunting models are less suited to home defense.


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## powernoodle (Sep 4, 2005)

Frangible said:


> Why? If he's getting one just to learn to shoot, a Ruger Mk III is a far better choice for that.



The gun has SHTF duty as well - something a 357 Mag will handle better than a .22 - though I wouldn't want to catch a .22 either. 

The revolver has the best combination of firepower, ease of use, likelihood of going bang after extended periods of abuse or disuse, etc. of the current options. But its no biggy, as a revolver will lead to a Glock or vice versa, so we'll all be happy. 

best regards


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## moeman (Sep 4, 2005)

The Springfield Armory
XD40 is a good handgun, too...
chris


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## JimM (Sep 4, 2005)

My suggestion is that you make a few trips to a sportsman's club in your area and spend time at the range with the other shooters. Some clubs have websites with a schedule of club activities posted online. Most shooters will take the time to share their experience with a newcomer, and you may get the opportunity to shoot a variety of different handguns. I suggest that you try to shoot a few different guns and calibers before deciding on what to buy. Make sure you take protection for your hearing and eye sight. I use safety glasses and ear plugs when I cut the grass. If you have something similar, be sure to take them with you when you go to the range. If you don't have any, buy some. They are cheap protection.
If you are looking to buy a gun, a Ruger .22 is a good gun to begin with, and you can probably find a used one in good condition reasonably priced at a local gun shop. It's alot cheaper practicing with .22 ammo as well. If you can't hit the target with a .22, you won't do much better with a bigger caliber. Once you have a little range time under your belt, you will be in a much better position to select a revolver over a semi-auto, or vice versa.
Jim


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## Bravo25 (Sep 4, 2005)

Frangible said:


> A 1911 is a gun resembling the M1911, the first locked breech automatic that John M. Browning designed for the US military. It has sort of a cult following, but 1911s are unreliable relative to newer automatics, expensive, and don't hold much ammo. The military has discontinued their use.
> 
> Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed for my anti-1911s and revolverisms, but that's ok



Well since you expected it!
A 1911A1 in .45 (that is almost a half inch bullet) will load and shoot every time. It doesn't matter what you feed it. When the bullet hits a person in the little finger it will knock him 50 feet backwards, and he will bleed to death in seconds. That is if he doesn't explode from the impact. The gun will never jam, and you can't ever wear one out. Just throwing an empty 1911 at on offender will cause him immediate destruction, and unsurvivable pain!

Now that we have we gone to furthest extreme on this weapon lets put out a few facts. A good 1911A1 is very reliable. It has substantial stopping power, and the military is currently reviewing its use again. Will it fail to feed or jam. Yes every autoloader will at sometime if it is not taken care of. It does have a maxium load limit of 10 rounds if you want an extended magazine in single stack. I own both a Springfield Armory 1911A1, and a Glock 23. I would recommend the Glock for a first time buyer as long as they understand the gun rules of safety. Nothing to fiddle with. You pull the trigger it goes bang. the 23 is of great size to conceal, and accurate.

The 1911, if you understand it, and can use it proficiently is one of the safest, and most reliable weapons to date. But you have to be willing to invest the time into it.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2005)

I've been in the firearms business long enough to say you should just go out and try out both types of actions and in different calibers to see which ones you like and can shoot accurately with in both slow and rapid fire. Buying a firearm on recommendations alone is like buying a car without driving it first. I could recommend a Bowen 500 Linebaugh but you'll probably sell it after the first shot. Don't buy the largest firearm in the largest caliber because it's this years favorite choice. Buy the one that you feel comfortable with and can handle and shoot with confidence, you'll be way ahead. My working guns were a 1911, a Smith and Wesson 4513 TSW and a Kahr K-40 but those were MY choices and they were practiced with 2 hours every day before we opened up for business. One of my employees went with a tuned Ruger SP 101 since he preferred revolvers over autos. Whatever you buy, remember to practice and practice and practice.


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## newo (Sep 4, 2005)

This is like asking whether a guy prefers blondes, brunettes, or redheads. Everyone has an opinion. Everyone is convinced that their opinion is the best one. And they're all good . . . .

My personal preference, if I had to pick one and only one, is a SIG/Sauer P229 in .40 cal. Significant firepower, highly durable, very safe, very reliable, and it can be field stripped without tools. Approved for usage by practically all federal, state and local law enforcement agencies. The biggest drawback is the cost - the last time I looked it met your parameter, but there are definitely less expensive weapons out there.

There is also much to be said for a decent .357 magnum - you can practice with inexpensive .38 reloads, and use the .357 factory loads for real. I used to favor Colts, but grew to prefer S&W because I prefer their cylinder release mechanism - easier on my thumb. Ruger and Taurus also have their fans, but I'm really not familiar with them. The biggest drawback here is ammo capacity, and reloading takes a bit more practice. Still, a respectable weapon.


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## bwaites (Sep 4, 2005)

Interesting topic!

"The 357 magnum has an unsurpassed reputation as a man stopper, if there is such a thing in a handgun caliber." 

REALLY? Someone needs to tell the FBI and all those LEO's who have switched to semi-automatics!! If there is a round that that can be said about in the handgun world, I would say it is the .44 Magnum, or perhaps the .45. I have FBI friends who have nightmares of guys who walked through .357 firestorms, catching round after round and still shooting. That is part of the reason they switched to Hi-Cap Semi-Autos. 

I have bought several guns over the years. If I was to ONLY have one gun, and it was for HOME defense, it would be very easy:

An AlleySweeper 12 gauge shotgun with buckshot, alternating with 00 buckshot, and at least 6 shells, though preferably 10. 

My reasoning, buckshot and 00 buckshot WILL stop just about anybody the first time, everytime! There are LOTS of stories of guys who handled round after round of handgun loads and kept shooting back. They usually eventually died, but sometimes took people with them. 

Handguns MUST be properly aimed to cause effect, and under stress, that is difficult. I play paintball with lots of very cool teenagers and adults, many of them LEO's and Firemen, and it is amazing how at ranges where no one SHOULD miss, everyone does, and that's with 200 rounds in the gun, not 10! It improves with experience, but NO civilian is going to get much of that! Many will say that proper training improves that, but evaluate the shootouts between LEO's (including FBI) and badguys and see how many rounds are fired vs. actual hits. Those groups train WAY more than any civilian will!

A shotgun only has to be pointed in the general direction to have effect. Then just let that natural spread do it's job! Any bad guy who has any smarts will back down from a shotgun, because unless he has one, he WILL lose. I interchange loads, because 00 buck has fewer pellets, but are bigger and will carry further. Even the sound from the first shot with a shotgun will often stop the badguys.

The problem is that a shotgun is not much of a carry option! 

Picking a handgun is tougher. 

My advice there is go somewhere where you can fire multiple weapons and see which you feel is the best fit for you. It should be comfortable in your hand and not make you feel like you've been whacked every time you pull the trigger. I carry and shoot a .40 caliber without problem, my brother in law carries and shoots a 9mm small frame that I can't stand. It bucks, and actually hurts when I shoot it, like someone slapping my hand with a one inch dowel!

I was determined to buy a Glock, but when it came right down to it, none I tried felt right in my hand, but a Ruger P40 (.40 caliber) with Hogue grips felt like it was part of my hand the second I picked it up, and I can regularly hit targets at 30-40 yards without thinking to much. That's a range I would only expect to shoot under extreme duress, but I can hit something at that range, at least when no one is shooting back!

I would NOT buy a costly M16 variant like the A4 for defense as a primary weapon. It is expensive (actually new ones are out of your price range) and has carry problems, just like the shotgun. If I had to have a long rifle, I would get a mini-14. It shoots the same round as the M16-A4 but costs less than half and is just as accurate. 

Just my nickels worth!

Bill


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## _mike_ (Sep 4, 2005)

Get yourself into some firearm safety classes. Try the different types of firearms that are available at the range/ranges where the classes are held. Then, make an educated decision based upon your personal experiences and what you are most comfortable and competent with.

I'm a revolver guy myself. As a civillian, if I am in a situation where I need more than 5 or 6 well placed rounds I am in really big trouble. I prefer revolvers, lever and bolt action rifles, and pump shotguns. My one semi-automatic rifle is a Ruger 10/22 (.22 caliber long rifle). 

Oh and Frangible, I have never had a revolver fail on me or know first hand where one has failed on anyone else ....... ever. And you are wrong, revolvers do not suck.


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## Jumpmaster (Sep 4, 2005)

I carry an HK USP .45 compact...very accurate, VERY reliable...and I like it very much. Expensive, but you should still be able to find a good used one for a reasonable price. Can probably get a new one under $1k anyway...

Good luck...practice often...practice and accuracy are often more important than your choice of weapon.

JM-99


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## greenLED (Sep 4, 2005)

_mike_ said:


> Get yourself into some firearm safety classes.



Ditto. Unless you constantly train on how to use the weapon in a situation when SHTF, you might as well hand the gun to the BG's. Well, maybe I'm exxagerating a little, but it scares me to hear how some people think that by having a gun *only* they're better prepared for whatever.

I don't own one, but I  over Glocks.


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## powernoodle (Sep 4, 2005)

bwaites said:


> Someone needs to tell the FBI and all those LEO's who have switched to semi-automatics!!



I would argue that they switched from the .357 Magnum to autos not because they found a "better" cartridge, but because of the perceived (and sometimes real) benefits of autos - capacity, ease of reloading, etc.

I'm sticking with my theory that the 357 Mag is unsurpassed among the common handgun anti-personnel calibers.

I'm also going to stop babbling now. My arms are all jiggly from using the weedeater, and I think its affecting my brain. :laughing: 

Onward and upward!


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## WDR65 (Sep 4, 2005)

Don't overlook the lowly .22 handguns. Whether a revolver or auto they may not be as flashy or powerful as their heavier caliber brethren, but they can be effective as long as you realize their limitations. I carry one everyday when I'm back home on the farm. We have several, ranging from a Ruger Mark II automatic, a Browning Buckmark and an old High Standard SA/DA revolver. I would not hesitate to use any of these in a home defense situation as long as they were loaded with a good hollow point hunting bullet. The only possible thing where a .22 would be totally ineffective would be if the person is wearing body armor and in that case most regular autos wouldn't do so well either, and considering how few common robbers happen to be wearing this then its really a non-issue. The big advantage of the .22 is its ammo is cheap and recoil/report is easy to deal with. You can shoot several thousand rounds for under $50 dollars if you buy the bulk packs at discount stores and gunshops. These wouldn't be my choice for home defense rounds, but they would probably work. I've seen deer dispatched with them at close range (wounded deer, instead of using a high powered rifle at 10 feet). With enough practice you could get good enough with a .22 to do a lot of damage to anyone threatening you and yours harm.
Gotta go for now, but I might try to say something about shotguns and rifles later. Higher caliber pistols are great by the way, but.......practice makes perfect and practicing with these on a budget is tough. At $5 for 50 9MM/.38 special rounds and $10 box for - .40,.45.357.,.357 sig at the minimum can you afford to shoot these a lot? Not saying you shouldn't choose one of these, but if you do you might want to buy a .22 pistol with similar characteristics and practice-practice-practice before you move up to the larger one. You might get proficient enough with the .22 that the larger one comes easily to you. Also, know your target and whatever is behind it, too many tragedies happen b/c of errors in this. Safety is the biggest thing you should be worried about.


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## ABTOMAT (Sep 4, 2005)

If he's just starting out and wants something servicable, how about one of the classic S&W .357 revolvers? One of the K-frames, with a 4-6" bbl? Reasonably cheap used, accurate enough, can shoot .38 or .357.


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## sniper (Sep 4, 2005)

Xochi: 

Lots of good advice, here, and some that had been thoroughly debunked. First, ANY gun will jam, particularly if it has not been well taken care of. (Revolver, personal experience, once, never repeated.) 

What you buy depends on how much time you will spend to learn your tool. 
Gun manufacturers have gone to great lengths to duplicate the ease of use of the revolver. There is a reason for that. Not that I am wishing to debate those who like semi autos. THAT whole argument is a non-issue, anyway. 

It takes practice to use any gun properly, and more practice to learn to use a semi-auto well. 

A shotgun is a great deterrent, but hardly the "spray and pray" solution some would believe. The pattern spreads about 1 inch per yard. You have to aim it just like any other gun, for it to be effective. Most encounters take place at living room or less distances, where the fabled "alley sweeper" spread is nearly non existant. 

Shotguns kick like hell! A 20 gauge automatic may be a better choice. 

FACT! You shoot best what kicks you least! 

A weapon is only as effective as the time and effort expended for learning to use it properly. i.e. HIT THE TARGET.

Forget multiple loads for different situations. You will always have the wrong load in at the wrong time. ( Murphy's Law. ) Find one load that you can shoot well, is easily available, or lay in a large , expensive supply. Then shoot with that load till it will do what you want it to do every time. 

The FBI changed from the perfectly good 357 Magnum following the Miami shoot out where mentally UNPREPARED FBI agents with fewer than their usual complement of weapons, lacksidasical attitude, and non use of available vests went to war with a couple of relatively stupid, but dedicated ,motivated, (thoughts of Florida's "old Sparky" are a a great motivator) and prepared murderers. Stats show that even the FBI has about a 20% hit ratio. Maybe that is not too bad for a bunch of lawyers and accountants, but that seenms to be about average for law enforcement organizations around the world, according to friends who are in law enforcement. 

I have had a facination with guns since I was a pre schooler, but among all the macho posturing, there is one overwhelming fact: Lots of people don't like guns or peope who own them. 

That's why low profile is best. A lever action 30-30 is a deadly as the most wicked looking "assault weapon", but is not a "cool". But it doesn't seem to panic the neighbors as bad, either. 

Lawsuits: If you even wing somebody, count on one. Even if you win, count on spending a cool $250,000 minimum. A non-lethal defense might be a viable alternative. Pepper spray, a baton, running shoes? 

Whatever you do, enjoy it, and buy quality. Don't buy ugly, even if it is cheap. You will never be satisfied. Then learn how to use whatever you buy, and learn the laws of your muncipality.

Stay safe


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## Haesslich (Sep 4, 2005)

I've shot the Glock 17 and 20 at the local gun club, along with the SigSaeur P226 and a few other things.. and being honest, I definitely liked the Sig more, though it's a tad on the expensive side. The Glock, however, tends to be more reliable than most guns that I know of.. and I'd have to second the 'try them out first, make friends with a local gun club and do some shooting before deciding what you pick up' school of thought. 9mm isn't a bad way to start either; it's fairly good at stopping people, so long as they're not wearing body armor, and it's easy to shoot, relatively speaking. The .40 or .45ACP are better man-stoppers if you're thinking you'll ever find yourself in that situation, but the .45ACP isn't quite as good as punching through body armor as other calibres, which is why (IIRC) they stopped issuing the M1911 and instead gave their officers the Beretta 95F - that and to fall in line with the rest of NATO, which (being European) loved their 9mm Parabellum. Me? I'll admit I'm used to using 9mm or .40... though I haven't had much time to do much (if any) shooting the past couple of years. Again, I have to repeat the same thing others have said - try shooting a few of these things, make friends or join a local gun club, and take firearms safety classes till you're comfortable with everything around these.

As far as shotguns go... I must admit I'm biased toward the Italian shotguns, though the Remington's nothing to sneeze at.


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## Jumpmaster (Sep 4, 2005)

Haesslich said:


> ...the .45ACP isn't quite as good as punching through body armor as other calibres, which is why (IIRC) they stopped issuing the M1911 and instead gave their officers the Beretta 95F -



Minor correction, but you mean the Beretta M9 (civilian version: 92F...later 92FS...)...right?

For shotguns, I really like my Mossberg parkerized 590 with the heatshield. It's fun going out to shoot the clays with friends with that...

JM-99


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## turbodog (Sep 4, 2005)

mossberg home defense special shotgun

yes, it's a real gun

specially designed for close distances


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## Haesslich (Sep 5, 2005)

Jumpmaster said:


> Minor correction, but you mean the Beretta M9 (civilian version: 92F...later 92FS...)...right?



From what I recall, the M9 currently in service with the US Army is based on the Beretta 92SB frame and mechanism, with a few changes to the trigger guard, base, and the front and rear end of the butt due to Army requirements, along with the lanyard ring... and the safety catch being on both sides makes the firearm more ambidexterous than the original 92S it was based on.

This design is now designated the 92F, which went onto the civilian market later, along with sales to the French Gendarmie, among others.

A minor correction to your minor correction. And yes, the 95F was a typo.


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## offroadcmpr (Sep 5, 2005)

remember, it doesnt matter what size the bullet is, if you can't hit the target! So pick a gun that you can shoot well, is usually not the bigger calibers.


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## Unicorn (Sep 5, 2005)

I can't really add too much to what has been said. Find someplace, a local gun range/club for training. Find a rental range that can let you try out some different guns in different calibers so you can know what you shoot well.


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## xpitxbullx (Sep 5, 2005)

xochi,

If you need to defend yourself with a handgun there are many great choices well in your price range. There are a few factors to consider.

A bad habit that MANY people have is that they don't clean thier weapon after EVERY practice session. If you feel that you may fall into that category (and its very common) then you will most likely want to get a revolver. Revolvers handle poor cleaning better than semi-autos.

If you maintain proper cleaning habits all the time (like myself), then I recommend a semi-auto because they hold more rounds and reload faster and reload easier in high-stress situations.

If you can get good enough and earn a Concealed Carry Weapons permit then it's easier to conceal a semi-auto. If you want to conceal a revolver then I suggest a 3 or 4 inch barreled revolver.

If you get a revolver, stay away from snub nose (short barreled) weapons since a newcomer will never learn to shoot one accurately even at close distances.

If you get a semi-auto, you will hear people say, "Get this caliber or get that caliber". Truth is, you get the most powerful caliber you can shoot proficiently. Since you don't know what you can shoot proficiently, you should start with calibers that don't kick so badly for newbies. 9mm and .40 cals are the most common. My suggestion if you take the semi-auto choice is a .40 cal. It kicks the same at a 9mm and much less than a .45 cal. You can hold more rounds than a larger .45 cal because it's small, light and it's more effective than a 9mm and in my opinion, just as effective as a .45 cal in ending deadly situations. Do NOT choose a .22 for a semi-auto. It is a proven fact that rimfire cartridges are not as reliable as center-fire cartridges for self-defense. I know in my state (Nevada), you can't even get a permit for a concealed rimfire weapon because of reliablity issues.

Take a gun safety course. It will be fun and it may save your life or someone elses.

Whatever you choose, welcome to the world of 'gun owners'.

Jeff

EDIT: Just to let you know what situations and which guns I use.

Home defense: If I had to fend off one or more people in my home and I had time to prepare and get the wife and kid to the 'secure zone', I would grab my AR-15 rifle. If home intrusion were unexpected, my Remington 20 guage shotgun with birdshot. I would want any rounds blasting though too many walls and possibly injuring an innocent person like my family.

In my car or walking: 40, cal Smith and Wesson Sigma (they don't make this anymore). A 15 round magazine makes me feel like I don't need to carry a spare. When concealment is at it's utmost importance, I carry a Glock Model 27 (40 cal baby Glock)

Target range: I practice with all my weapons but I really have fun with my Ruger Mark II 22 cal. I wouldn't use it for self-defense but it's cheap to practice with and keep your shooting skills fine tuned. I live in a desert so sometimes it's fun to go out in the middle of nowhere with $10 worth of ammo (500 rounds) and practice. Yes, my 40 cal will still be strapped to my side. 

Competition: I like pin shoots (shooting bowling pins). You want a large caliber handgun so I use my Ruger KP-90 .45 cal. I won many contests with it. For in-range contests, I like my Smith and Wesson 586 model .357 magnum with .38 special target loads. I also won many contests with this setup.

Just wanted to let you know what I use personally.


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## weaponlight (Sep 5, 2005)

Xochi,

Alot of good advice here, especially from Sniper. I am a soldier with three combat tours, I am also an NRA certified firearms instructor who is the master gunner for my brigade. I have taught many new shooters and had to recommend first guns.

Before you purchase any firearm, you should memorize the rules of firearms safety. Just google 'Gun Safety' on the net' and you can find them easily. Purchase a trigger lock if one is not provided. Even if there are no children in the house, the firearm will be more difficult to use by a criminal if stolen. You can remove the lock when you are home, carrying the gun, or at night when the children are asleep. Store the weapon in a secure place.

Then start learning with low recoil firearms. Trying to learn to shoot with high recoil firearms often creates the bad habit of flinch that some shooters never recover from.

I usually start students with a .22 rifle and .410 shotgun. Once they have mastered the long arms, I move to the handgun which is much harder to shoot accurately.

.22s and the .410 are good for small game hunting and inexpensive general marksmanship practice when you move up to higher powered firearms, AND ARE LETHAL, and can be used for defense untill you move to a more powerful weapon.

Whatever guns you purchase, I would state that you usually get what you pay for. There are many fine used guns in shops if you look around. I usually recommend a good used Ruger 10/22 or a bolt/lever action rifle, single shot .410, and the Ruger mark II/III, Browning Buckmark, or a good .22 revolver (S&W some of the best) for first guns.

Moving up in power, I usually use the .223 and .30 carbine first in rifles, then the .30-30, and finally move to the .308/.30-06 and larger calibers. In shotguns, you can move to 20 gauge, then to 12. ln handguns move to the 9mm/.38 SPL, then the .357/.40/.45, and finally the .44mag and larger.

When you are ready to purchase guns for inexpensive general defense, I usually recommend the Ruger Mini-14/Mini30 or Winchester 94 in .30-30, Remington 870 in 12 Gauge, and any quality .357/9mm/.40/.45. A rifle is not generally good for home defense only as its bullets will penetrate walls inside the house, and sometimes other houses as well.

Have fun shooting safely and be prepared!

Weaponlight


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## xpitxbullx (Sep 5, 2005)

One more thing xochi,

If you need this gun quickly for immediate protection and you wont have the time to practice with it a couple of times and get familiar with it...DON'T GET ONE, YET! You will be a danger to yourself and others.

Pepper spray should be pretty easy. Perhaps a baseball bat. Not a gun. You need time to prepare yourself to use a gun safely and correctly.

Jeff


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## Jumpmaster (Sep 5, 2005)

Haesslich said:


> From what I recall, the M9 currently in service with the US Army is based on the Beretta 92SB frame and mechanism, with a few changes to the trigger guard, base, and the front and rear end of the butt due to Army requirements, along with the lanyard ring... and the safety catch being on both sides makes the firearm more ambidexterous than the original 92S it was based on.
> 
> This design is now designated the 92F, which went onto the civilian market later, along with sales to the French Gendarmie, among others.
> 
> A minor correction to your minor correction. And yes, the 95F was a typo.



I would hardly call that a correction. My information was correct...you simply provided additional (unnecessary) historical information. I never referred to the "ancient history" or italian aspects of the origins of the M9.

Thanks anyway, though.

JM-99


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## JohnnyB (Sep 5, 2005)

JimM said:


> My suggestion is that you make a few trips to a sportsman's club in your area and spend time at the range with the other shooters. Some clubs have websites with a schedule of club activities posted online. Most shooters will take the time to share their experience with a newcomer, and you may get the opportunity to shoot a variety of different handguns. I suggest that you try to shoot a few different guns and calibers before deciding on what to buy. Make sure you take protection for your hearing and eye sight. I use safety glasses and ear plugs when I cut the grass. If you have something similar, be sure to take them with you when you go to the range. If you don't have any, buy some. They are cheap protection.
> If you are looking to buy a gun, a Ruger .22 is a good gun to begin with, and you can probably find a used one in good condition reasonably priced at a local gun shop. It's alot cheaper practicing with .22 ammo as well. If you can't hit the target with a .22, you won't do much better with a bigger caliber. Once you have a little range time under your belt, you will be in a much better position to select a revolver over a semi-auto, or vice versa.
> Jim




An excellent response


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## Frangible (Sep 5, 2005)

Haesslich said:


> ...



Morgenstern ach scheine
auf die Liebste meine?



(offtopic, just noticed your posting name)


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## stevep (Sep 5, 2005)

There is no substitute for training.Your local range will offer some.Before you go there make a trip to wally world.You need eye and ear protection,I wear ear plugs and ear muffs.If you don't have a local range that rents guns, it would be worth a drive.If this is not an option,buy a box of 9mm,38,357,40 & 45.Most people at your local range will let you try out a firearm,especially when your shooting your supplied factory ammo.There is some good training available on DVD.I just got "Close Range Gunfighting" by Gabe Suarez,I recommend it.He has a website called Warrior Talk.Another trainer that has DVD's goes by the name "Southnarc".They will be my next purchase.He has two websites,Shiveworks and Total Protection Interactive.The TIP site has some excellent pictorial technique/tactics posted.I will repeat myself.THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR TRAINING.


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## Frangible (Sep 5, 2005)

stevep said:


> There is no substitute for training.Your local range will offer some.Before you go there make a trip to wally world.You need eye and ear protection,I wear ear plugs and ear muffs.If you don't have a local range that rents guns, it would be worth a drive.If this is not an option,buy a box of 9mm,38,357,40 & 45.Most people at your local range will let you try out a firearm,especially when your shooting your supplied factory ammo.There is some good training available on DVD.I just got "Close Range Gunfighting" by Gabe Suarez,I recommend it.He has a website called Warrior Talk.Another trainer that has DVD's goes by the name "Southnarc".They will be my next purchase.He has two websites,Shiveworks and Total Protection Interactive.The TIP site has some excellent pictorial technique/tactics posted.I will repeat myself.THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR TRAINING.



*especially* true for handguns. Rifle/shotgun use is a lot easier and quicker to learn.


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## bwaites (Sep 5, 2005)

Lot's of good responses!!

Firearms, flashlights, and knives! Are we predictable or what?

Just for kicks, I went and found my twelve gauge targets, shot with BuckShot and 00 buckshot. At 5 yards, the spread on the buckshot was about 14 inches, with most of the pellets in an 8 inch circle. With 00, it was about the same, but with fewer outliers, for obvious reasons. 

Now, thats not a lot of spread at 5 yards, but think about it. The average human is 14-18 inches wide. If you shoot a pistol and miss, just by one inch, you still miss! But if you shot the buckshot, were off by one inch, you still would hammer the badguy with roughly half the pellets in the round. Now that might not stop him, but it gives you a little time for the second shot, which should stop him. 

Shotguns aren't easy to carry, but they do have more 1 shot stopping power.

By and large, though, start with what you can shoot comfortably and work up to what will be your final choice, like recommended by the experts here.

Just for fun, ask someone who has been shot, it's always amazing to me how many people actually have been, would you prefer to be shot again by a .357, .44. or .45? I'm betting the answer is .357!

Bill


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## EVAN_TAD (Sep 5, 2005)

$1000 will cover 99% of handguns. What state are you located in?


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## Tom_Dunn (Sep 5, 2005)

Glock? Tupperware for cops........
My heart belongs to the pistols made by CZ.
Specifically, I have a CZ 97b. That model is made in .45 ACP only, and if you figure you may have a need to fire on someone, thats the caliber you want. Period.
The 97b holds 10 rounds, plus one in the chamber. It does not have any Rube Goldberg safety nonsense, it can be carried hammer down, safety off, or "cocked and locked" with the safety on. It is double-action single action, meaning that there is no need to **** the hammer manually to fire the first round, as is the case with 1911 style guns.
It comes from the factory with a test target, showing exactly how well THAT gun will shoot. Count the other makers that provide that.
The gun does have it's drawbacks, noteably, it is a very large heavy gun, all steel, and the 10 round magazine makes for a large grip. People with smallish hands mave find the gun too large to handle comfortably. If there is a larger, heavier .45 out there, I'm not aware of it. VERY pleasant to shoot.
There is not a .45 out there that I would not put my CZ up against, including the overpriced Keeblers, er, I mean, Kimbers and Springfield Armory offerings that sell for twice the price. 
The CZ sells for under $600. An unbeatable value, as is the entire line of CZ firearms, rifles, pistols and shotguns alike. 
These are my not-so-humble opinions!
www.czusa.com


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## ABTOMAT (Sep 5, 2005)

I dunno about the "what would you want to get shot with?" question. A really big fellow, plastered out of his mind, walked into a hospital a while back complaining of back pain. Turns out half a mag's worth of .45ACP hollowpoints had expanded in his back's blubber. Don't think he suffered any long-term problems. If he had been shot with something at higher velocity I don't think the outcome would be the same.

Speaking of CZ pistols, anyone here have an old CZ-52? Just curious. It's a 7.62mm pistol with a locking breech designed to fire ammo hotter than a Tokarev, for those who are wondering.


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## Jumpmaster (Sep 5, 2005)

Tom_Dunn said:


> Glock? Tupperware for cops........



BAAAHHHahahaa...sorry...that struck me as really funny and I just spewed iced tea out of my nose!!!!

I hate glocks...I seem to have to have a death grip on it to get it to cycle correctly...death grip on the weapon is not conducive to accurate shooting...for me, anyway...

JM-99


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## dbedit (Sep 5, 2005)

I have to say with $1000 you can get the best of all worlds a shotgun to leave at home, a .22 cal to practice with and a larger caliber handgun for personal protection and range shooting as well. I consider a .380 as the smallest personal defence round acceptable. If you are concerering using handgun as your primary home defense wepon I would reccomend a prefragmented bullet such as glazer saftey slug or hydrashock. These are expensive speciaty ammo designed to transfer the energy of the bullet to the body and inflict more damage hence stopping power. In my area of the country a large majority of personal protection shootings they take place within a 21ft radius. To me this make a handgun actually a good choice for personal defense..... I said good, the shotgun I would consider excellent!


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## Tom_Dunn (Sep 5, 2005)

ABTOMAT said:


> .45ACP hollowpoints had expanded in his back's blubber]


Theres a lot of the problem right there, bag that hollowpoint crap and feed your .45 230 gr Ball ammo. Had that been used in the case you describe, the guy would have arrived at the hospital feet first, and immediatly been sent to the 'fridge.


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## nerdgineer (Sep 5, 2005)

Tom_Dunn said:


> If there is a larger, heavier .45 out there, I'm not aware of it.



Star Mega Star 45 ACP is bigger

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg116-e.htm

Weighs 1.4 kg to the CZ97b's 1.1 kg.


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## Tom_Dunn (Sep 5, 2005)

dbedit said:


> These are expensive speciaty ammo designed to transfer the energy of the bullet to the body and inflict more damage hence stopping power.



While I agree with most of what you say, I have to disagree on the ammo choice. Those expensive, exotic ammos will expand and expend their energy in a Carhartt jacket with a hooded sweatshirt under it just like they would when they strike most anything else. I don't want expansion, I want to shoot right thru the person, regardless of garments.


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## Tom_Dunn (Sep 5, 2005)

nerdgineer said:


> Star Mega Star 45 ACP is bigger
> 
> http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg116-e.htm
> 
> Weighs 1.6 kg to the CZ97b's 1.1 kg.


I stand corrected, but I only see a slight unloaded weight difference of 1400gr vs. 1150 for the CZ.


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## nerdgineer (Sep 6, 2005)

So Xochi, getting enough advice? [imagine a good natured laughing gramelin, here]

As you may have noticed, this is an often discussed and passionate topic among many handgunners and I have little to add to the very good advice already given here, except these 3 more cents:

1. This discussion never ends. Eventually you just get tired of hearing it and go out and start trying handguns until you find one you like. 

Or you go out and get one which sounded good to you and try it later - in which case you can always sell it if you find out you don't like it (join the club - [smiley graemlin]).

Or you don't bother to try it OR practice with it after you buy it, in which case we all wish you well if you ever need to use it, but we also all told you so.

2. If your serious about this: of that $1000 (or whatever) you're thinking of spending, spend half of it on a less expensive gun and half on ammunition for that gun (assuming it's not a .22). Then shoot that ammunition (in 50 or 100 round sessions) through the gun until it's near used up. Keep what's left, and you'll be better off than if you spent all of it on the gun and then just sit around admiring what a pretty piece it is. 

Practice - as recommended by so many here - costs money and needs to be budgeted for.

3. Safety, safety, safety. Do take the gun safety courses. None of us needs any more stories about accidental shootings for the media to grab onto and paint us all with that brush.


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## xpitxbullx (Sep 6, 2005)

I wouldn't want to get shot with a Smith & Wesson model 500.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/monster_1103/

Jeff


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## Bravo25 (Sep 6, 2005)

nerdgineer said:


> Practice - as recommended by so many here - costs money and needs to be budgeted for.
> 
> 3. Safety, safety, safety. Do take the gun safety courses. None of us needs any more stories about accidental shootings for the media to grab onto and paint us all with that brush.



Amen Bro! AMEN!


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## Atomic_Chicken (Sep 6, 2005)

Greetings!

What an amazing thread... so many different points of view and so many excellent suggestions!

I have been using hanguns for over 25 years now, and have owned dozens of different brands and models, action types, and calibers. I can recommend two courses of action for you, depending on how much time and effort you want to put into this endeavor.

If you only have a casual interest and want to buy something that will take the minimum amount of time to learn, use, and maintain, then I would recommend that you buy a Ruger or S&W revolver in .357 Magnum - learn to shoot it, then set it aside until you need it.

If, on the otherhand, you want the pinnacle of modern handgun technology that will take a bit longer to become comfortable with but will be THE last word in ultra-reliable ruggedness, high volume of fire, and sheer knockdown firepower... then buy a Glock model 22 (.40 S&W) with a few spare 15-round clips. This is BAR NONE the finest combat handgun ever produced in my personal opinion... absolutely unmatched in terms of rugged construction, ultra-reliable operation, knockdown power, cartridge capacity, and ergonomic comfort.

I'm sure there will be a lot of disagreement with this... but having owned most configurations and brands (including all of the high-end brands) I'm convinced beyond any question that the Glock 22 is the way and the light. 

Best wishes,
Bawko


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## Lmtfi (Sep 6, 2005)

If New Orleans is what you are worried about - a handgun is NOT what you want. A shotgun is better than a handgun. A rifle is better than a shotgun. Assuming self-defense - don't go to a fight with the wrong tool.


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## IsaacHayes (Sep 7, 2005)

Desert Eagle 50 calibur? Heh. A glock would be a good gun. I don't know much about guns but I've handled a Glock 40 calibur and it was nice. I've heard you can even get 30 round clips for it! and mod it to full auto! But enough of that, I just got excited.


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## Frangible (Sep 7, 2005)

> Desert Eagle 50 calibur? Heh.



A Desert Eagle is a weapon best left to Counter-Strike and the movies 



> A glock would be a good gun. I don't know much about guns but I've handled a Glock 40 calibur and it was nice. I've heard you can even get 30 round clips for it! and mod it to full auto! But enough of that, I just got excited.



You can get a 30 round magazine for the 9mm models, I am not sure about the availability for the .40 S&W's, but the 30 rounders protrude several inches below the grip of the pistol and make it very awkward. Also, the non-Glock branded 30 round magazines (Promag etc) are not very reliable.

Modifying a firearm to be fully automatic is illegal... and even if it were legal, it's just not very useful. Even the military uses semiauto pistols and has moved away from full auto in infantry rifles. Full auto is great for stopping enemy troops doing a bayonet charge and fun on the shooting range but mostly just wastes ammo.

But anyway, the OP should've gotten some decent ideas from this thread. Just remember to try before you buy and get lots of practice (and at least a little training) while observing safety. Firearm ownership is a responsibility that must be taken seriously, and carries benefits as well as risks. (and is a lot of fun  )


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## markbUK (Sep 7, 2005)

I'm going to avoid any comments on usage, given that I'm in the UK!, However having been actively involved in practical pistol shooting here until the handgun ban, I would concure with the comments re practice, I used to uses two .357's a 2.5in S&W 66 and a 4in 686 but i put thousands of rounds through a .22 S&W 17 during practice. 

Handguns are difficult to use, but relativly easy to carry and as has been said shotguns are the very opposite. 

If for any (legal) reason I was going to carry a hand gun everyday I would probably stick with a revolver only because I'm comfortable with one. 

At least you have some choices over in the states, there NONE here (unless your a criminal that is) make your choice wisely and not in haste, 

Mark


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## sween1911 (Sep 7, 2005)

Tom_Dunn said:


> Glock? Tupperware for cops........
> My heart belongs to the pistols made by CZ.
> Specifically, I have a CZ 97b. That model is made in .45 ACP only, and if you figure you may have a need to fire on someone, thats the caliber you want. Period.
> The 97b holds 10 rounds, plus one in the chamber. It does not have any Rube Goldberg safety nonsense, it can be carried hammer down, safety off, or "cocked and locked" with the safety on. It is double-action single action, meaning that there is no need to **** the hammer manually to fire the first round, as is the case with 1911 style guns.
> ...



I agree, except for one small detail. A 1911 carried with the hammer down on a live round is ridiculous misuse. The 1911 is to be carried cocked and locked (round in chamber/hammer cocked/safety ON). Manipulation of the hammer during usage is unneccesary and dangerous. Just thought I'd throw that out there since all the gun nuts are getting each other fired up.  

The CZ is a sweet design though. One of the first to be that versatile. The DA/SA cocked and locked layout always appealed to me, as it does with the HK USP.


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## zespectre (Sep 7, 2005)

I'll throw in my $.02 worth.
Because of the current situation you are thinking of getting a gun. Hopefully, like several others have recommended, you are also planning on doing the full route of training and regular practice (and the time/expense that entails). If you plan on buying a gun and throwing it in a drawer until you "need it" then you have a lot to learn about owning a firearm.

Also, have you really considered what shooting someone really means? Can you do it? Can you handle the aftermath? If not find an alternative!

Do you know when a gun might save you and when it might make things worse? (for example Hollywood loves to have you think that a single shot in the air will cause a rampaging mob to back off. Real life has shown that it gets you stampeded more often than not.) If you don't know, then learn and take those lessons to heart!

I am NOT anti-gun. I own several and try to stay proficent (I do much better with the pistols than the long guns :ironic: ). I do get VERY concerned when it seems like someone is having a knee-jerk reaction to current events and wants to rush out and buy a gun to feel "safe".


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## cslinger (Sep 7, 2005)

Getting a gun just escalates the situation and does no good whatsoever. All you are doing is furthing the circle of violence. Call the police and let them handle the situation.

 GOD I CAN'T EVEN TYPE THAT WITH A STRAIGHT FACE BWHAHAHAHAHA.

Ok now that we have that out of the we.

1)Buying, borrowing or handling a gun should not be a snap decision. Like others have said. Get training, starting with safety training. Safety needs to be your primary concern before anything else and has to become second nature. For example I don't even rest my finger on the trigger of drills or windex bottles because it is so ingrained in me to keep your friggen finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.

2)Have I mentioned training and safety. Once you have safety down inside out, upside down and it has become part of your very being you will need to learn basic firearms operation. How does a revolver differ from a semi auto, rifles vs. shotgun etc.

3)Once you have this down it is time to make an informed decision. A couple of caveats. Most gun nuts like myself always want an excuse to buy a tricked out uber Tacticool gun with lights, lasers, sights etc. and so on. The fact is most criminals, looters, etc. are generally opportunists and cowards who will move on to easier prey the minute you drop one of them or put a few rounds over their bow so to speak. Don't feel like you HAVE to buy a thousands of dollars worth of hardware to effectively protect yourself. JUST LEARN WHAT YOU OWN. 

4)Have I mentioned safety??????

5)If you are only going to have one single firearm I highly recommend a 3-4inch .357 magnum all steel revolver. I like Rugers personally but you really cannot go wrong with Ruger, Smith, Colt and to a lesser extent Taurus. The thing about the .357 revolver is it allows you to shoot anything from the most mild mannered .38 special all the way up to wrath of God Crazy Buttstomper .357 Fire Belchers. 

Revolver tend to be more reliable and easier to utilize for the average person but realize the difference between a semi auto malfunction vs. a revolver malfunction is usually the severity. Semi Auto malfs. are usually cleared quickly and you are back in the fight. Revolver malfs. although much rarer, tend to put the gun out of the fight. 

All guns are machines made by man and Mr. Murphy hates you so they will malfunction from time to time.

A shotgun or a rifle is a better weapon but you are less likely to have it handy. A handgun will allow you to always have it with you/near by. If home invasions have you worried you would be astounded to know how quickly they can happen and be over. I have listened to at least two where you wouldn't have had time to go from your living room to your bedroom. Think 16 seconds. 

5)Anybody here mention anything about safety, I digress. Know your laws federal and state. They are convoluted, crazy and constantly changing. Take the time to learn them and stay on top of them. Get politically active.

6)If you are serious about the $1000 price range figure the following.
$400 for a good .357 revolver
$15 for a good cleaning kit.
$100 for decent secure storage for when the weapon is not in your personal control. THIS IS MANDATORY. Even a simple fireproof File safe will work.
$20 on speed loaders or speed strips. figure on getting at least 3-5.
$100 on defensive ammo to keep on hand and get a feel for.
Spend the rest on range time and practice ammo.

If ammo is not part of the cost consideration then use the rest to pick up either a good .22 revolver or a good pump 12 gauge shotgun. I like Remington 870s.

Where are you located. If you are anywhere near Nashville, TN I am sure I could meet with you and provide you with some different types of firearms to try before you buy. I could have some friends show up as well and we could probably muster a firearm or two  for you to try. 

STAY SAFE, STAY LEGAL AND PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. It's not the hardware it is the software and like our shotgunning Guru on another site always says. BA/UU/R or Buy Ammo, Use Up, Repeat. 

Chris


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## cslinger (Sep 7, 2005)

> Shotguns aren't easy to carry, but they do have more 1 shot stopping power.



Never rely on "one shot stopping power." Humans are very very tough resillent animals and it is best just to mentally prepare for the fact that you will have to shoot multiple times. Keep squeezin' till they stop wheezin' methodology. 

There is really only two reasons for single shot / instantanious stops.

1)Central Nervous System disruption. Brain, spine etc. 

2)Psychological stops. The BG has seen TVs and movies and just goes down or stops because that is what happens when you get shot and it hurts bad so I must be dying etc. Never rely on this as you may get somebody who simply gets pissed and redoubles his effort to kill you. He may very well bleed out but not before he puts some kind of hurting on you.

As for bleeding out, humans can bleed out very very quickly but there will still be some lag before the "hydrolics" go down so to speak. 

The point is unless you are putting a 120mm high explosive round dead center mass, condition yourself to never expect a "one shot or instantaneous stop."


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## gorn (Sep 7, 2005)

Tom_Dunn said:


> Theres a lot of the problem right there, bag that hollowpoint crap and feed your .45 230 gr Ball ammo. Had that been used in the case you describe, the guy would have arrived at the hospital feet first, and immediatly been sent to the 'fridge.



Ball ammo has a tendency to go through people without a lot of hydrolic shock, which is what really screws you up. 

Shot placement is what matters not caliber. A .22 round in the brain turns the light switch off just as fast as a .45.

If you hit someone in a non-vital area no matter what you shoot them with you probably will not get your desired results.


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## Frangible (Sep 7, 2005)

Indeed, the one shot stop is largely a myth unless you score a headshot.

For more information, I suggest reading this very well researched and informative article:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

This thread is evil, now I want to buy another gun 

Edit: And you can get a really small shotgun as well if you want the compactness!







Mossberg 590A1 Compact. 14" bbl, requires $5 AOW tax.


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## zespectre (Sep 7, 2005)

Possibly the nastiest thing I ever saw was a gunsmith's custom project. A .410 pistol with a three round clip. just in front of the trigger (4 rounds if you had one in the chamber) and a really short bolt action chamber. I WISH I had a picture of it. He said it worked and "shot just fine" but I never actually saw it in action.

The only other thing like it I've ever seen was the .410 "derringer" like this
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976465077.htm


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## Frangible (Sep 7, 2005)

zespectre said:


> Possibly the nastiest thing I ever saw was a gunsmith's custom project. A .410 pistol with a three round clip. just in front of the trigger (4 rounds if you had one in the chamber) and a really short bolt action chamber. I WISH I had a picture of it. He said it worked and "shot just fine" but I never actually saw it in action.
> 
> The only other thing like it I've ever seen was the .410 "derringer" like this
> http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976465077.htm



Brutal on the wrist, but probably fun


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## ABTOMAT (Sep 7, 2005)

Frangible's post made me think of something. The ideal weapon for self-defence might not always be the right choice. Remember, unless you're in combat or the 3rd world, law enforcement will review you shooting someone very closely, and likely skeptically.

So you have your SB shotgun, or a SPAS-12 (really great beginner guns, seriously), or an AR-15, or some amusing Class III or DD toy. If you blow away someone will one of these, even if your life was in real danger, the cops will look at you like you were planning to kill someone, or are just a really dangerous person. That will influence whatever justifiable homicide hearing they have.

Saying you just happened to grab your 10" bbl, 30-round, folding stock, laser-and-light-equipped, DD registered, Manblaster .50AE with the optional grenade launcher will look worse than having shot the bad guy with a Winchester deer rifle, Sig pistol, or a Remington 870 bird gun.


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## Frangible (Sep 7, 2005)

ABTOMAT,

I think they tend to be more focused on whether or not the killing was justified than how the weapon looks. I don't think you should let cosmetics get in the way of choosing the most effective self-defense tool for you and your family. As they say, better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. Remember, only less than one half of one percent of the population of the US is actually strongly anti-gun, so I think your chances of getting reasonable people are pretty high.

I've actually heard this argument pop up from time to time, but I've never found a court case where the appearance/modifications of the weapon were a significant factor in the decision. If you can point to one I'd appreciate it.

Just make sure if you use it, it's justified! If you take a training course this should be covered with applicable law from your state. It was in the courses I took.


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## Tom_Dunn (Sep 7, 2005)

sween1911 said:


> A 1911 carried with the hammer down on a live round is ridiculous misuse. The 1911 is to be carried cocked and locked (round in chamber/hammer cocked/safety ON).



Indeed it is, BUT people do freak when they see that. Pity, John Browning had a pretty good idea of what he was doing, I think. 
The argument as to which is the better way to carry the CZ goes on endlessly. I personally, carry with the hammer down. It is moot to say safety off, 'cuz it won't go on, by design, unless the gun is cocked. I can live quite easily with the first round being fired in double action mode, if it should so happen I don't have time to manually **** the gun. The 97b has a pretty decent double action trigger, actually.


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## Stingray (Sep 8, 2005)

I have done a lot of range shooting (my dad was an investing partner in a range/gun shop for quite a while so I had free range time) and I have seen both revolvers and semi-autos jam on multiple occasions. I'm not really for or against either, and both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I just thought I'd mention that about the jamming aspects. 

If I were to select a single handgun for home defense for under $1K, it would be either an HK USP or a Sig P229R. 

If I were to select a home defense battery of guns, I would probably go with an 18" 8-9 shot 12 ga. shotgun like a Mossberg 500/590 or similar, a Ruger mini-14 or AR-15 or clone, a carbine that takes the same caliber as the pistol I chose and an HK USP or Sig 229R pistol. 

A carbine that takes the same magazines as the pistol is always a nice side benefit such as a Marlin Camp 9 and a S&W 5900 series pistol combo or a Ruger carbine/pistol combo. I don't remember if there are any carbines (generally available) that use the HK or Sig magazines, although maybe Kel-Tec might have one.

If I could only own one gun for "do it all duty", including camping, hiking, home defense, target shooting, carry etc., it would be a S&W 629 Mountain gun in 44 mag. (which can also shoot low recoil 44 special rounds, snake rounds, frangible rounds in both calibers, heavy 300 gr. bear rounds etc).

If I were to have to recommend a handgun for YOU to buy for self defense, I would say go the range, take some lessons, and give all the major semi-autos and revolvers a thorough tryout and see what fits your hand and body style/shape the best. See what you shoot the best, what feels the most instinctive to you, and what inspires the most confidence in you. You might be surprised at the result.

Although I favor the HK USP and Sig 229R for certain reasons, the semi-auto that fits my hand most perfectly and that always points instinctively for me is the all steel .45 ACP EAA Witness (a CZ clone). The revolver that fits my hand, and balances and points instictively in it, is the S&W 629 mountain gun with Hogue rubber grips. 

Every person is different, try them all, and see what fits you perfectly for the long run. If you feel you need something right away for self defense in the meantime while you learn to shoot, practice, and try out different guns, I would recommend a good condition, used, 4" .357 revolver from a major manufacturer. There are a zillion of them around at great prices and you can either keep it as backup or sell it once you find that "perfect" gun for you that you ultimately decide on (it might even be that used .357). 

This is all just my opinion obviously, and as you can see, opinions vary


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## Teh (Sep 8, 2005)

If you are looking for a nina, my picks would be:

H&K USP Tactical
Sig Sauer P226 Rail
Glock 17c

The above pistols has built on rails to attach lights or lasers, plus they all carry more than 15 rounds.

For home defense I recommend a short barrelled 12 gauge, a Mossberg 590 would be a fine choice. Find one with a pistol grip. And for the extra punch, check out Knoxx Industries, they carry box mag conversions.






If you are looking for fire power, get a cut down Kalashnikov (AKSU Krinkov) and stamp it as a AOW (Any Other Weapon), there you have a legendary Assault Pistol that packs 30 round mags or 75 round drums of 7.62x39.





All of these can be had within 1 grand, but the AOW stamp will cost you 200, but in my opinion it is well worth it.


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 8, 2005)

I have had several revolvers and semi-auto's, and the Ruger Security Six 357, and the Ruger GP100 have been the guns that never failed to go "bang". Another favorite of mine is the Ruger 101, also a very reliable handgun. I like Smith's, but they tend to be a little finiky.

Bill


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## xpitxbullx (Sep 8, 2005)

Baseball bat. If you ever swung one, you have all the practice you'll even need. :laughing: 

Jeff


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## Samoan (Sep 9, 2005)

Stingray said:


> If I were to select a single handgun for home defense for under $1K, it would be either an HK USP or a Sig P229R.
> 
> If I were to select a home defense battery of guns, I would probably go with an 18" 8-9 shot 12 ga. shotgun like a Mossberg 500/590 or similar, a Ruger mini-14 or AR-15 or clone, a carbine that takes the same caliber as the pistol I chose and an HK USP or Sig 229R pistol.



My light and knife purchases have really fallen off. Why? Since April I have picked up:

Sig 229 in .40 S&W ($400 Used)
Glock 23 also in .40 S&W ($400 New)
Benelli 12 ga. Nova Pump ($300 New)

To reiterate what other have said the best gun is the one that you shoot the best. A buddy of mine has the Glock 27. He loves it I hate it. He shoots it pretty well, I couldn't hit the side of a barn from the inside. I shoot the Sig the best and do ok with my Glock. I am in the practice of putting a couple hundred rounds through each of the pistols a couple times a month. You have to trust the gun and yourself, no exceptions. Make sure your particular gun likes the ammunition you're going to be feeding it. I haven't had any issues but I know plenty of guys who have those "My Glock won't feed XXXX, period" stories.

Find a range that has rental guns and start with a .22 and work your way up in calibers until you find YOUR comfort zone.

-F


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## Carpe Diem (Sep 9, 2005)

1) Smith & Wesson Model 686 .357 Revolver...4 inch barrel or less

2) Glock 21 (.45 ACP) Semiautomatic Pistol

3) Practice...practice...practice...practice...

4) And then practice some more.


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## drizzle (Sep 9, 2005)

My one bit of advice for choosing the gun is to try to find a range/gun store combination that has rental guns for use on the range.

Before I bought my pistol I tried about 20 different models. I very quickly found out which were better or worse for me. That is, which fit better in my hand, which I shot better, which felt more intuitive, which were more annoying, which kicked too much, etc.

No amount of reviews or recommendations by experts could have told me that.

BTW, the place I did it was Wade's Guns in Bellevue, Washington.


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 9, 2005)

Tom_Dunn said:


> Theres a lot of the problem right there, bag that hollowpoint crap and feed your .45 230 gr Ball ammo. Had that been used in the case you describe, the guy would have arrived at the hospital feet first, and immediatly been sent to the 'fridge.


 
That was *exactly* what I was going to reply with...


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 9, 2005)

OK, I've seen quite a bit of excellent advise. I'm just going to drill down a list of questions and suggestions to seriously consider prior to making any sort of decision. I am going to assume that you will end up with a handgun, although if you can swing it, a shotgun is an excellent primary self-defense weapon. Even with a shotgun, a pistol is great backup to that.

Here's a couple questions:

Do you live in an apartment, condo, townhouse, or single family residence?
Have you ever shot a pistol of any kind before?
And here's some things to consider:

*KNOW* the laws in your state
The best way to do this is to take a pistol safety training class and/or a concealed weapon class (some states are ridiculously strict)
Check your state's website

You must be *ultimately* familiar with your handgun
Semi-Automatic, or Revolver (I recommend a semi-automatic)?

Revolvers rarely don't go bang. They also only hold 5-6 rounds and can be more difficult to reload under pressure.
Semi-Automatics can be complicated for a beginner (but anyone can learn how to use and maintain). They have higher capacities for ammo, are easier to load, and can be designed to work just like a revolver does

It must be comfortable for your hand

It is important that your *all *of your fingers fit on the butt of the pistol (ie: don't have a finger that dangles).
You should be able to reach the trigger and be able to squeeze it without "reaching" for it.
You should be able to hold your pistol securely - even if your hands are wet (this is very important, and if the above two conditions are met, then this usually isn't a problem)
It shouldn't be easy (god forbid) for someone to take it out of your hand with a _comfortable _grip

Go to a gun shop that has a lot of guns, and go when they aren't real busy. Don't go by looks (although the Beretta is one of the most beautiful automatics in the case and it's one of the most reliable and accurate), you must be comfortable holding, aiming, etc...
Beware of the local gun shop commando, not all the people behind the counter fully know what they are talking about, and some are trying to steer you toward something more profitable for them or their shop.
Buy a new pistol, not used.
Once you've narrowed it down to a few, you need to make a decision of caliber. This is a much debated issue, but 9mm is one of the most readily available ammunitions and comes in many different "flavors" and most of the pistols available have higher capacities with 9mm. (I prefer .40 cal., but that's _my _preference and I still suggest 9mm) If you should choose a revolver, a .357 that will shoot .38 rounds is ideal.
For semi-automatics, choose your action type:

There are only a couple basic action types:
Single Action (SA) - hammer/striker must be cocked before trigger will engage and fire - _you don't want single action only, trust me_
Double Action (DA) - just pull the trigger

Many semi-automatics are DA/SA, the first shot is DA, the rest are SA unless you de-**** the pistol
Some are DA only (DAO), and some are very advance
For personal defense, DAO is becoming the preferred action (especially from a legal standpoint) but is still a _preferenc_

Once you've purchased your pistol, it is *MOST IMPORTANT *to take the time to read the manual completely, have someone *show *you how everything works, and get on the range to practice.
Practice on the range with your range ammo, but it is also _very important _to practice with a hundred or so rounds of your personal defense round if you intend to load with something other than standard ball ammo. This is important for two big reasons:

Your personal defense ammo most likely will have different ballistic characteristics, so it may require an adjustment of your shooting style or aim point.
Some personal defense ammo (usually hollow-point and frangible) may not feed well in your pistol. Although this is not real common, it can be a serious problem

It is also important to go back a week or two after your initial range outing to follow up on your familiarity with your pistol and to be sure you can keep on target
Invest in a proper ready-access safe (check your state/local laws on securing firearms). It must be secured in a way that _*only *the people you want to access that firearm_ may gain access to it, while not making that access cumbersome.
Anyone else who has access to it should also be ultimately familiar with the pistol as well, for everyone's safety. This includes range time.
Maintain your pistol properly, keep it clean and lubricated per the manufacturer's recommendations.
Periodically go to the range to keep familiar with it, the more you handle it and fire it, the better off you will be.
I'm sure someone may debate this, but I am not an advocate of buying a used gun for a first purchase. It's sorta like a used car, did the previous owner have a problem?

If it fits your hands, a Beretta 92FS or Beretta Vertec are very reliable. Other reliable (although more expensive) pistols are H&K USP (Full Size and Compact), H&K P2000, H&K P2000SK, SIG 226 (and its variants). A good warranty is important, but don't buy a pistol based on a "lifetime" warranty. Beretta has a 1+2 warranty, 1 year + 2 more years if you register it with them by sending in your warranty registration card and copy of sales receipt. I can't imagine any of the above pistols having issues.

I hope this helps. *Above all, be safe.*


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## Stingray (Sep 9, 2005)

Beretta1526 said:


> A good warranty is important, but don't buy a pistol based on a "lifetime" warranty. Beretta has a 1+2 warranty, 1 year + 2 more years if you register it with them by sending in your warranty registration card and copy of sales receipt. I can't imagine any of the above pistols having issues.



Good post.

I have to disagree on the warranty issue though, and I hate to post this given your screen name, but Beretta is the only firearms company I've ever experienced bad customer service with. I had a safety break on one of my Beretta's, a friggin' *safety *of all things, and they refused to fix it unless I paid them around $100. Granted the gun was over 1 year old, it was actually about 4 or 5 years old, but in perfect shape otherwise and never abused. And the customer service woman was rude and snooty on top of that.

Just to contrast, I had a ~20 yr old Walther PPK wear out a magazine catch. I sent it in to Interarms to have it replaced (at my cost) and they replaced the catch, put in a new extractor and firing pin, fully disassembled and cleaned and tuned it and sent me 2 brand new magazines, all at no charge, without me even asking. And I was probably the 4th owner. That was customer service !

Customer service matters to me. I know that Beretta makes good firearms on par with the rest of the industry leaders, but if something goes wrong, I can't count on them to make it right. If that had been a S&W, HK, Sig, Ruger, Walther etc., they would have fixed that broken safety without hesitation. Because of my experience, I will never buy another Beretta. Just my $.02 YMMV


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 9, 2005)

Stingray, how long ago was that?


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## Stingray (Sep 9, 2005)

It was probably 8 or 9 years ago.

(edit)
Maybe a little less now that I think about it.


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## xochi (Sep 9, 2005)

Wow!

I've been pretty busy lately so when I finally got to read all this quite a bit had accumulated. Thanks alot folks! Lots of excellent information.

Some background:

I've been around guns for most of my life, not seriously around guns but as a kid I went through 'hunter safety training course" earned a very high score with a .22 rifle in the Boy Scouts, fired various shotguns and handguns (revolvers mainly) , did some target practice with my pops M1 Garand. The safety thing has ALWAYS been seriously stressed in the situations where I was shooting so It's pretty well ingrained. 

I'm leaning towards an automatic and think that the numerous suggestions to go try'em out at ranges are a good idea. I just worry that my expensive taste gene will kick in and I'll be lusting after something ungodly expensive. If I were calling ranges to find a good situation to try out some guns what should I ask for? 

Many folks also stressed practice, maintenance and knowing the gun. This makes sense and since my budget is limited I'm leaning towards more affordable calibers. What calibers are cheaper to feed? I know that smaller is cheaper but I wouldn't feel comfortable using a .22 as a self defense tool (but I'd love shooting one at the range!). I want to be able to afford to practice regularly and want a tool that will kill people very well.

I will seriously consider a concealed carry permit if only to say I have one but for the most part the gun will be kept at home with a trigger lock at a minimum, I haven't spent too much thought on storage considerations. There are no children in the house and it is a relatively safe area. I'll likely take the gun with me on work trips into areas with power outages and perhaps on roadtrips. I'm hoping that my primary use of the gun will be target shooting for fun but since I'm considering this as my only firearm it needs to be a good self defense weapon.

Thanks again for all the info!
Ken


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 9, 2005)

Well, I just got back from the range a little while ago. I had a Beretta 96 Inox (Stainless) that I have been on the fence about keeping for quite some time and now it's settled. I traded the 96 Inox (& minimal cash) in for a SIG P226.

Now I've had a *LOT *of pistols in my time, revolvers, autos, DAO autos, you name it... but never got a SIG because of the cost. I'm glad I did now.




This is the first pistol I ever took out of the box, and put one near the center of the target without ever firing it previously - and all the follow-up shots were in the orange as well. The SIG Certified Pre-Owned (CPO - in the RED cases) are less expensive and a great value if you get one that's nice cosmetically.


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## guncollector (Sep 9, 2005)

My $0.02 'cause..well...my username...

Any *quality* handgun, even lightly maintained, will serve its user well for a lifetime, and probably that of his children. 

That said, given economic constraints, I would recommend a handgun that will *afford you* plenty of ammunition with which to practice, and perhaps a quality "tactical"-type (dreaded "t"-word) flashlight. 

With the above in mind, try as many handguns as you can until you find one that you're comfortable with, put at least 500 rounds through it before determining reliability, and pursue *proficiency*. 

HTH!


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## Stingray (Sep 9, 2005)

Not to go too far off topic, but I have about 4 boxes of gun magazines in my garage that I need to get rid of because I need the space. They're mostly 80's and 90's issues of various magazines. I hate to just throw them away, since I've saved them this long. If anyone here wants them, they can have them. Otherwise, is there anyplace that would want these magazines?


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 10, 2005)

eBay... just split 'em up by year and sell 'em. You'll get a little (or maybe a lot) out of them, and someone else may get something they have been looking for for a long time.



Stingray said:


> Not to go too far off topic, but I have about 4 boxes of gun magazines in my garage that I need to get rid of because I need the space. They're mostly 80's and 90's issues of various magazines. I hate to just throw them away, since I've saved them this long. If anyone here wants them, they can have them. Otherwise, is there anyplace that would want these magazines?


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## was_jlh (Sep 11, 2005)

xochi, i'm partial to sigs :

http://www.sigarms.com/


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 11, 2005)

I just bought a SIG P226... first pistol I ever literally pulled it out of the box, loaded it, and put one in the 8 ring or better (actually mostly in the 9 ring). I like the decocker too, the hammer doesn't fall quickly and harshly.



was_jlh said:


> xochi, i'm partial to sigs :
> 
> http://www.sigarms.com/


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## was_jlh (Sep 11, 2005)

you'll never lose that feeling, martin. i bought a P225 in 1993, still my favorite handgun.


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## xochi (Sep 11, 2005)

Well, I went to the range today and tried a glock 23 , 17 a walther 9mm, cz 9mm and a .40 ruger. I think that I prefer the 9 mm since it's cheaper to feed and seemed to have less recoil.

I shot the best with the Glock 23 but I was all over the target with the different guns. When I asked to shoot the CZ my first impressions of the gun was that it just looked cheap and poor quality and I handed it back to the guy. I decided to try it anyway and the gun store guy said they were superior to Glocks. Well the CZ jammed on the 7th round. 

I'm gonna have to check out the Sigs. 

BTW Shooting today was fun as hell!


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## Atomic_Chicken (Sep 12, 2005)

xochi,



xochi said:


> Well, I went to the range today and tried a glock 23 , 17 a walther 9mm, cz 9mm and a .40 ruger. I think that I prefer the 9 mm since it's cheaper to feed and seemed to have less recoil.
> 
> I shot the best with the Glock 23 but I was all over the target with the different guns.....I'm gonna have to check out the Sigs.
> 
> BTW Shooting today was fun as hell!



I think you will like the Sigs, if Glock didn't exist then the Sig P229 would be my favorite handgun...

It sounds like you shot the best with the Glock 23 (.40 S&W) but that you are leaning toward the 9mm handguns because of ammo cost and recoil. I can't possibly tell you how much of a mistake that might be!!! Think of it this way: Is ammunition cost or recoil going to matter much to you if you ever DO find yourself in a situation where your LIFE or the LIVES of your family members DEPEND on you hitting the bad guy in the right spot where you might only have ONE chance?

I cannot stress this enough: Try as many guns as you can in the price range you can afford, then buy the one you SHOOT THE BEST with... regardless of ammunition cost, recoil, appearance, brand name, or ANY OTHER FACTORS. The ONLY purpose of a firearm is to accurately project metal at a high rate of speed to the precise spot in space which you designate... all other considerations (except reliability, which is a moot point for firearms in the price range you are considering) are meaningless fluff and marketing hype.

Do yourself the biggest favor you will EVER do yourself: throw out your notions of ammo "economy" and buy the gun you shoot the best with. Someday, your life might depend on it.

Best wishes,
Bawko


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## Stingray (Sep 12, 2005)

Don't forget to check out the HK's as well as the Sig's. Try the full size and the compacts in all the different calibers. HK's have a recoil buffer system that makes them kick less. Might as well try some .45's, although they are said to kick more than 9's or 40's, it also depends a lot on the particular gun. A Glock 9 kicks a heck of a lot more than an all steel full size .45 like the EAA (CZ clone) or Colt. Also, the 45 feels more like a "push" than a "snap". You might like it better (or you might not).

It takes many trips to the range before you really know what you will prefer and be most confident with in the long run. You can't go by one day at the range. But it's fun shooting and trying all the different guns, so keep at it.

Many people believe the CZ's have some of the best ergonomics of any gun made (I agree, for my particular hand). Sometimes rental guns jam due to poor maintenance or abuse.

Enjoy yourself


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 12, 2005)

Be sure to try an H&K USP, USP Compact, and/or P2000 in .40 cal. as well as the SIG. The H&K USP Compact .40 I have is great. The recoil is better managed (IMO) on the H&K because they have a stock recoil buffer (as Stingray mentioned).

We still don't know what state you're in too.



xochi said:


> I'm gonna have to check out the Sigs.
> 
> BTW Shooting today was fun as hell!


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## xochi (Sep 12, 2005)

I live in Cumming Georgia which is north of Atlanta. 

Atomic Chicken, I can appreciate your recommendation. At this point in the game everything is still fuzzy and I've not alot of confidence in rental guns or my shooting. I shot a box of .40's and 2 boxes of 9's but I was experimenting with grip and stance styles as well as shooting with both eyes open and then one closed, there was alot going on with me and my shooting inexperience that needs to work itself out before I feel confident enough to say that gun X is better for me. At this point I think that my skills need alot of refinement before I can make a good choice. Econonomy won't be the top priority.

I'll be looking into taking my girlfriends son (16) shooting next time, he has said that it sounds like fun. 

This is gonna be a fun purchase!


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 12, 2005)

...and as well it should be a fun purchase!

H&K and SIG are a little more expensive, but I think once you wrap your hands around a P2000 or a SIG, you'll like it.

As for the whole 9mm/.40 cal thing, there's a really big debate over it, which I can't even begin to get into. I'll look for the link, but there's a link that shows all sorts of ballistic tests and what can be expected from the two... and quite a few more.

.40 cal can be just almost as inexpensive as 9mm. I bought boxes of 100 rounds of Winchester White Box at Wal-Mart for $15.xx. That's cheaper than I pay for 9mm at the range. Go with what you are comfortable with. If your state allows hollow points, there's a "preferred" list of ammo's that regularly perform better than others.

--as I mentioned before, be wary of the local counter commando, as they may be trying to sell you something they have a better margin on... CZ being better than a Glock is debatable. Personally, I find nothing appealing about a Glock, but compared to a CZ, my money's on Glock.


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## Teh (Sep 12, 2005)

Next time when you go shoot, try to shoot like this 

http://www.hosercam.com/video/aroundthecorner1.mpg


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## TonkinWarrior (Sep 12, 2005)

Xochi, take a good look at the Smith & Wesson model-3913 9 m/m pistol. 

It's a single-stack (8 + 1) 9 shot semi-auto. Numerous gun-magazine writers have called it the best gun S&W makes. It's been time-tested for 15 + yrs., so its reliability is street-proven. Its flat-ness makes it more concealable than certain other fine pistols (like the Glocks, Colt 1911 variants, SIG's, CZ's, and any S&W .38/357 revolver. Its slide-mounted safety also makes it safe to casually stuff in your waistband (sans holster)... unlike a Glock (which, due to its unique/accidental-discharge-prone trigger) is a great Cop Gun... but a not-so-great gun for civilian beginners).

Loaded with any good 115 grain +P ammo in the summer, or 125-147 grainers in the winter (for penetration thru some poor socially-disadvantaged/maladjusted/misunderstood-by-society felonious/dirtbag attacker's heavy clothing) the S&W-3913 will do the job.

I've owned just about every pistol/revolver/shotgun/rifle mentioned here. However, if I was forced to select just one gun that'll "do it all," the 3913 would be my choice... despite long-time soft-spots for Colt .45 ACP Lightweight Commanders, SIG-228 9's, and S&W .38 snubbies. 

In the end, this is a very personal decision. However, I think you'll find that guns have something in common with flashlights: One Is Not Enough. 

When you learn a lot about guns, you'll come to realize that they're specialized TOOLS -- much like different kinds of hammers, pliers, screwdrivers, etc. -- and the myriad makes and variations render each one just a little better (sometimes A LOT BETTER) suited for any given "job." Beyond that, you'll need to read, study, take training... and immerse yourself in the world of ballistics... where the same above "variations and refinements" rule applies to selecting the right ammunition for your gun(s).

A handgun is a "compromise" weapon, one that'll always be ON YOU (or close-by) when Murphy's Law of Surprises happens. In the best tactical sense, if you KNEW a SHTF confrontation was coming, you'd be better armed with a pump shotgun or a Colt AR-15 or Ruger Mini-14 (eeeevil semi-automatic "assault rifles" to the gun-illiterate pacifist Sheeple), or maybe even a bargain-priced Ruger 10-22 (10-shot .22) rifle as a first choice go-to gun. However, the right handgun will buy you time... and get ya to the fort on time.


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## drizzle (Sep 12, 2005)

TonkinWarrior said:


> Xochi, take a good look at the Smith & Wesson model-3913 9 m/m pistol.



Great  You just added another pistol to my wish list.


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## wquiles (Sep 13, 2005)

xochi said:


> I shot a box of .40's and 2 boxes of 9's but I was experimenting with grip and stance styles as well as shooting with both eyes open and then one closed, there was alot going on with me and my shooting inexperience that needs to work itself out before I feel confident enough to say that gun X is better for me.



I am an NRA Handgun instructor and have been teaching for the last 5 years. PLEASE take a shooting class, if possible "before" you buy anything. Then when you go to a range and try different guns, you will have the basic skills to trully apretiate which gun(s) feel and work better for you.

I just hurts to hear that you are trying to find out stuff on your own without any direction. My best students were the ones with the least experience since it was "far" easier to teach them the right stuff from the getgo (most of them were women!). Anyone else who was taught by a friend or tried to learn on their own, or (worst case) learn from stuff on TV/movies, had a much harder time to de-learn their bad habits and learn the proper stance, grip, sight picture, trigger control, etc.. Once you got the basics, then you can go to a range and practice those skills, and when you see your shooting scores improve you will trully have fun - there is nothing more frustrating than to go to the range and not be able to improve after boxes and boxes of ammo since you really have no idea of what to change.

Good luck, and above all, please be safe 

Will

PS. For the record, you should always shoot with both eyes open. Tons of scientific data to prove it, "most specially" in a self-defense scenario. In a good class you will learn to use your strong eye and use both eyes properly.


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## pedalinbob (Sep 13, 2005)

Jumpmaster said:


> I carry an HK USP .45 compact...very accurate, VERY reliable...and I like it very much. Expensive, but you should still be able to find a good used one for a reasonable price. Can probably get a new one under $1k anyway...
> 
> Good luck...practice often...practice and accuracy are often more important than your choice of weapon.
> 
> JM-99



I don't have a great deal of firearms experience, but I did rent that pistol for a couple of hours (not the compact model).

Though it felt a bit large in my hands, it was the most excellent pistol I have ever fired. It was incredibly smooth and very, very accurate. Recoil was remarkably controlled. Freaking loud boom, though!

Bob


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## Jumpmaster (Sep 13, 2005)

pedalinbob said:


> Freaking loud boom, though!



Quick question...you *were* wearing hearing protection, right?

I shoot my HK USP 45 compact all the time and it's just not that loud when wearing earplugs...at all...

Also, I recently had some custom earplugs made and they work even better than the regular earplugs...very comfortable for long hours too. I got lots of comments on them from people at annual training. One guy had a set there in "safety orange"...(mine were green)

JM-99


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## lymph (Sep 29, 2005)

Get some lessons, either in a class or from a friend who can shoot one ragged hole at 10 meters. Try all the rental guns at the range. Stick to .38spl, 9mm, .40 or .45 unless you want to spend a bunch on ammo. Get what you like and are comfortable with! Don't buy something without trying it and several others, no matter what people on the internet say.


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 29, 2005)

Just got back from "the shop" -- I have 3 letters for you 

*PX4*


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## bladefrenzy (Sep 29, 2005)

First off Thanks Bravo 25 for informing folks of the 45's awesome info! One of my favorite pistolas. Also a note as to the military switching to the berretta 9mm. A lot of sf units, marine recon and so on have returned to the 45. A year or so ago the usmc had a group of amorers build around 2000 semi custom 45's , 1911 style for many of the recon units now in Iraq. This article was in a shooter mag. I will try to find the article and post a link. 

If you are inexperienced I would say get a Glock or Glock style .40 , I have a S&W Sigma , holds 15 round mags, as well as having a lot more effective stopping power than a 9mm, which , if I recall correctly has a 50 something percent " one shot stopping capability" 50/50 is not my idea of an effective caliber for anything. You can find used Glocks and similiar at shows for 350 bucks or so. They may be ugly but they won't fail you at putting lead down range and are really low maint. IMHO Steve:rock:


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## wmpwi (Sep 29, 2005)

The only advice I would offer is to be sure that what ever you get, make certain you can handle it well enough to hit what you point it at. The best gun you can’t handle is worthless if not a danger to you. Typically, for someone purchasing their first gun, they should try a bunch and pick the one with the shortest learning curve. Good luck.


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## Lightraven (Sep 30, 2005)

I carried a .357 magnum on duty for a few years, and came close to using it once. One of my coworkers (I never knew him) lost a gunbattle with his .357. He got one .357 JHP round into the bad guy's stomach while he took multiple hits from a .22. The bad guy ran away and lived, the good guy did not.

I think the reason that our revolvers were phased out had as much to do with "keeping up with the times" as anything. The autos are fine, especially if you are in the gunfight from hell, but most of our situations are resolved with a single shot. Incidentally, FBI agents Grogan and Dove, who died in Miami were both on the SWAT team. Both were reloading revolvers when they were shot point-blank. Both bad guys, Platt and Matix had been shot repeatedly, with only Matix(?) being incapacitated (briefly) prior to death. Hard to fault the agents for that one. A burst from a full-auto rifle through the driver's compartment of Platt and Matix's car likely would have ended the situation at the outset. 

One of my academy classmates was shot in the head by a sniper with a rifle from hundreds of yards away. I'm not sure the caliber used--AK, I think. Bad guy was never caught. My classmate fully recovered. I called him and told him how impressed I was that he could take a head shot and drive away. He was a Marine Special Ops Capable in Mogadishu.

Just adding to a few of the previous posts.


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## Elliot (Oct 8, 2005)

> FBI agents Grogan and Dove, who died in Miami were both on the SWAT team. Both were reloading revolvers when they were shot point-blank. Both bad guys, Platt and Matix had been shot repeatedly, with only Matix(?) being incapacitated (briefly) prior to death. Hard to fault the agents for that one.



Actually both FBI agents that died were armed with S&W 9mm. There were about 80 rounds fired by the FBI; 9mm, 38 SPL, 12 guage 00 buckshot. They used poor tactics and shot worse. A 38 SPL snubby ended the affair. The FBI, rather than blame the agents, blamed the weapons. They moved on to the 10mm -which was too much weapon for their training level so they (at that time) decided on its weak sister the 40 cal. 

The FBI has very different requirements than the average Joe who wants a first gun. The last agent I helped never fired a gun until his training and still doesn't "like" guns. 

xochi: Well, I see that you jumped right to the semi-autos. Most people do these days - it must be the movies. My suggestion would have been a Ruger 22 semi-auto for training/plinking, a S&W 38 snubby for carry and/or a Beretta 9mm for home defense (shotgun way better). If you lived up north where people wear heavier clothing substitute a 45 cal. instead of the nine mm. 

If you really want only one gun (this concept is hard for me to grasp) get a S&W 686 .357 caliber. It can shoot .38 SPL for practice and 38+P or .357 magnums for self defense and will almost always be far more accurate than a common 9mm or 40 semi-auto (.22 semi-autos are very accurate) during target practice. 

I carry a laser sighted S&W .38 SPL or an ultra small Kel-Tec .380. At home I keep a laser sighted Beretta 9mm handy. 

One gun?? That's like one knife or one flashlight!  

Elliot


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## TonkinWarrior (Oct 9, 2005)

Elliot: Good post... and welcome to CPF.

To slightly expand your good summary of the FBI's infamous "Miami Shoot-out": their 9 m/m load was the Winchester 115 gr. Silvertip. It was actually a pretty decent 9 m/m round back in '86, but just lacked ideal "tactical penetration" under certain scenario. As you pointed out, however, the REAL failure there was their tactics,

The Silvertip is still a decent non-plus-P load for those seeking to avoid the hot high-pressure loads (with accellerated gun wear, louder blast inside, etc.). They're ideal for classic old Brownings. As I recall, the Silvertip is generally rated around 80%+ for one-shot stops. 

I prefer the CCI 124 gr Gold Dot +P, Corbon 124 gr. +P, and WinRanger 127 gr. +P+ in my serious nines. Various tests rate 'em at around 88-92% stoppers.

A great summary of the FBI's Miami Shoot-out can be found at TheGunZone.com, titled "The Ultimate After-Action Report." -->> Definitely worth reading.


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## Elliot (Oct 9, 2005)

Hi back at ya TonkinWarrior: Good ammo choices. I see you like the S&W 3913. Great gun! I had one years ago that I that I sent off to the custom shop for some work - very sweet.

The Ranger +P+ are the great. I reload so I stick to Gold Dots, because I can buy just the heads. When I re-fill the "batteries" before leaving home, I put in the store bought stuff. This gives me the same point of impact in practice as in carry.


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## was_jlh (Oct 9, 2005)

Another vote for the Corbon +P's, that's what stay in my Sig.


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## Frangible (Oct 9, 2005)

Elliot said:


> Actually both FBI agents that died were armed with S&W 9mm. There were about 80 rounds fired by the FBI; 9mm, 38 SPL, 12 guage 00 buckshot. They used poor tactics and shot worse. A 38 SPL snubby ended the affair. The FBI, rather than blame the agents, blamed the weapons. They moved on to the 10mm -which was too much weapon for their training level so they (at that time) decided on its weak sister the 40 cal.
> 
> The FBI has very different requirements than the average Joe who wants a first gun. The last agent I helped never fired a gun until his training and still doesn't "like" guns.
> 
> ...



Ironically, the 9mm FMJ round has better penetration than almost any other handgun bullet, due to the shape of the bullet. (not that they were using FMJs)


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## Lightraven (Oct 10, 2005)

Thanks for the correction. I was trying to pull the scenario from memory and forgot exactly who had what. 

While I hate to give the FBI any credit, I think their tactics weren't bad given the rapidly developing situation. They had the bad guys in a crossfire. They were using their cars as cover. One bad guy was taken out of the fight (though later tried to escape) before he could fire a shot. The other absorbed a level of damage that would have been fatal, given a little more time.


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## xochi (Nov 24, 2005)

BTW, I just wanted to update a bit on this.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards Sigarms P226 in .40 caliber. I won't be making a purchase for a couple of months so I'm wondering if there is any reason NOT to buy one these and also were the best place to get one is. 

I'd also like to know if the factory refurbs are worth taking a look at.


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## cslinger (Nov 24, 2005)

P226 is one of the finest handguns around. The factory refurbs are very good deals and should be looked into.

Chris


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## mudgunner49 (Dec 5, 2005)

The difference between 9, .40 and .45 is not as large as some would have you believe. With good ammo it is quite close indeed and in the end shot placement is more critical than bullet diameter (within reason). The 9mm will allow you to shoot more for less $$$ and hit faster as it has significantly less recoil than it's 2 major competitors. I will reiterate that handguns have (comparitively) low stopping power (whatever that is) when compared to either rifle or shotgun. You can have concealable and readily available or power on tap, kinda hard ot get both.

To the individual who stated that the shotgun is king be cause you can't miss, just point it in the general direction - I raise the BS flag. Get out of the armchair and into some serious training (not paintball or airsoft!!) as you have your head firmly planted somewhere dark and are starving for air... this type of truly bad advice is why this medium is often referred to as the "Errornet"!!!

I would recommend a rifle for a number of reasons (accuracy, number of shots, weight of ammo, range...), and find some type of low-profile carry bag (sports bag, lacrosse stick bag, etc...). I would still recommend a good handgun that suits YOU, and that you can hit well with. My preference is Glock 17 in 9mm or 1911 in .45, but there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the Sig (I have 3 of them).

Finally, not nearly enough folks stressed the importance of solid training as well as a skill maintenance program. Having a gun doesn't make you armed any more than having a piano makes you a concert pianist. (borrowed from someone smarter than me - can't remember who)

Flame suit on...


blake


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## USARSHOE (Dec 5, 2005)

Just note on ammo. I don't know if it was mentioned before or not but when carrying a handgun for defense and god forbid that you need to use it, the best ammo to have in the gun is one marked "personal defense" on the box. In front of a jury using any high power such as Corbon (my personal favorite) looks much worse than an ammo meant to defend yourself.

My 2 cents.


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## TonkinWarrior (Dec 5, 2005)

MudGunner49/Blake:

Welcome to CPF! Very good first post.

A couple of your points merit loud amplification:

1. The Shotgun certainly has its place in home defense. However, you're dead-bang on-the-button correct about the shotgun's mythical "can't miss/huge shot spread" capability. At typical down-the-hallway or across-the-room shooting distances, the shotgun's pellet-pattern spread is only about 6 inches... give or take a few inches for pellet-size and barrel length/choke variations. And, while the shotgun loaded with say, #4 buckshot, is deadly at close range, it's also unwieldy in narrow places like hallways, etc. 

2. The handgun, especially in 9mm/.40/.45, or even .38/.357, ain't perfect, but loaded with the RIGHT kind of hollow-point/expanding ammo, may well be the best-compromise home defense weapon. The handgun's not unwieldy, it's controllable, and more difficult for an intruder to wrestle-away. The handgun is also better for fast follow-up shots than a shotgun -- though low-recoil semi-auto rifles like the AR-15 or Mini-14 (with light/fast bullets to minimize over-penetration) are faster... and deadlier. The handgun is also easier to use in conjunction with a flashlight, though a dedicated light mounted on/under a rifle may work well under certain conditions. Having tried them all, I choose a semi-auto pistol... with a Surefire L5. OTOH, I've trained via the old "Harries method" so all that's encoded in my muscle-memory. YMMV.

3. The extreme importance of (a) Combat Mindset ("I"ll NEVER be a victim!"), and (b) quality initial training -- to implant skills and overcome ignorance and contemporary society's (academic/media) trendy-pacifist cultural conditioning, combined with (c) skill-maintainence training, cannot be exaggerated. 

For ongoing on-line "mindset" training, I recommend regular reading of (a) Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, and (b) Defense Training International's (guru John Farnam) "Quips, Quotes, and Lessons Learned" column. Blissninny Sheeple will find their stuff absolutely spasm-inducing offensive. (Good!) Realists will find it illuminating, comforting, and inspiring.
------------------------------------------------
Boycott PayPal:
Because they discriminate against firearms accessories commerce, they're guilty of blatantly p.c. discrimination on the basis of Political Orientation.
Principle trumps convenience in the Great Culture War.


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## Lee1959 (Dec 5, 2005)

I would say the best thing to do is go shoot as many as you can at a local gunshop or gunclub and go from there. Buy what feels best to you, every person is different. A .22 revolver is usually the best place, in my opinion, to start and learn proper shooting techinique. From there move on to what you like. I am a bigbore bigot, even though I do love my Makarov, most of the time and prefer .45 ACP pistols and .44 magnum revolvers. My wife shoots .357 very well and I think most average men can easily master that caliber or almost any of the .40 caliber pistols.

BTW: A pistol is a magazine fed self ejecting/loading cartridge into the breech most incorreclty term an Automatic, and a revolver carries the shells in a cylander and it revolves into position to fire. 

Here is my all time favorite handgun, but it is big, heavy and takes a lot of shooting to master well. I liked it so well I had it customized to fit my idea of the perfect handgun.


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## mudgunner49 (Dec 5, 2005)

Lee1959 said:


> I would say the best thing to do is go shoot as many as you can at a local gunshop or gunclub and go from there. Buy what feels best to you, every person is different. A .22 revolver is usually the best place, in my opinion, to start and learn proper shooting techinique. From there move on to what you like. I am a bigbore bigot, even though I do love my Makarov, most of the time and prefer .45 ACP pistols and .44 magnum revolvers. My wife shoots .357 very well and I think most average men can easily master that caliber or almost any of the .40 caliber pistols.
> 
> BTW: A pistol is a magazine fed self ejecting/loading cartridge into the breech most incorreclty term an Automatic, and a revolver carries the shells in a cylander and it revolves into position to fire.
> 
> Here is my all time favorite handgun, but it is big, heavy and takes a lot of shooting to master well. I liked it so well I had it customized to fit my idea of the perfect handgun.



Lee1959,

I agree with you that there is nothing really like a big-bore, either wheelgun or pistol - I have a bunch of both. Still love that Glock though. That is, quite simply, a beautiful Ruger. Those things have about as much chance of having something break or go wrong as does a hockey puck!!!


blake


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## Lee1959 (Dec 5, 2005)

Thanks blake, I do love that handgun, it has had some work by Mag-na-port International (it started out life as a 5.5 inch Redhawk and is not a trim ported 4.5) who I am lucky enough to love close to. They do excellant work and are a great group of people if you ever get the chance to work with them. The action work they did and other things make it shoot like a dream. It is my favorite hands down. I like the smooth Ivories to rubber or wood grips because they do not grip the hand and pull under heavy recoil like the others do, at least in my hands. 

I am ashamed to say, I have fired many handguns, and love my 1911's, Makarov, Kel-tec and even my EAA Compact Witness .45, but, I have never fired a Glock for some odd reason, ok you can take a few minutes and regain normal breathing now, lol. I have heard great things about them, but have yet to pull a trigger on one.


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## mudgunner49 (Dec 6, 2005)

Lee1959 said:


> Thanks blake, I do love that handgun, it has had some work by Mag-na-port International (it started out life as a 5.5 inch Redhawk and is not a trim ported 4.5) who I am lucky enough to love close to. They do excellant work and are a great group of people if you ever get the chance to work with them. The action work they did and other things make it shoot like a dream. It is my favorite hands down. I like the smooth Ivories to rubber or wood grips because they do not grip the hand and pull under heavy recoil like the others do, at least in my hands.
> 
> I am ashamed to say, I have fired many handguns, and love my 1911's, Makarov, Kel-tec and even my EAA Compact Witness .45, but, I have never fired a Glock for some odd reason, ok you can take a few minutes and regain normal breathing now, lol. I have heard great things about them, but have yet to pull a trigger on one.



Lee1959,

You are in MI then? I am at the top of the UP (the Soo), and also have a couple of handguns that Larry Kelly's shop has worked on (629 & 57). I also resisted the "Tactical Tupperware" for a long time, however sort of fell into a G23 and decided to abuse it until it quit working - it never did, and I still have it. It went the first 5500 rounds with no cleaning at all and I finally felt guilty about it so I finally scrubbed it down. I still think they are one of the ugliest guns out there and zero personality, but if you want reliability...


blake


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## Lee1959 (Dec 6, 2005)

Yes, I live on Lake Huron north of Detroit. We visit the Sault St Marie at least one time a year on our anniversary, it is an annual family trip, with my wife and both sets of parents, my mothers birthday is one day, the next our anniversary, and the next my mother in laws birthday so we all take a trip to the casino for a long weekend. 

Larry Kelly is one class act, and has a group of great and friendly professionals working with him, plus a nice little trophy room of game he has taken with handgun. They also have some nice dogs to pet while you look around and decide what you want done . I live about an hour from his shop in Mt. Clemons. 

I am not sure why I have not fired one, I will have to one of these days. My EAA is a polymer framed compact .45 and it is very soft shooting. I picked it up for a song after Y2K along with several other guns from some people who did not believe me that it was going to be no big deal (I was the Year 2000 Systems analyst for a first tier auto parts manufacturer and saw the preps for it all) and went nuts preparing. Nothing wrong with preparing for emergencies etc. mind you, but this one guy filled his garage with TP and ammo, lol, and he NEVER shoots, so I got a couple of good deals off him I could just not say no to even though I had never shot a Witness. Anyways, I have been surprised at how well the polymer frames do work with that and the Kel-Tec .380.


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## CroMAGnet (Dec 6, 2005)

I've read most of this thread because I'm going to shot show and dont know much about guns. Dont have much interest in owning one due to the finality potential they bring with just having one around. I'm sure I will be tempted at the show to buy one after all the salesy 'bombardment' but I'm sure I'll resist.

I'm surprised no-one mentioned using a laser site to aid in accuracy under stress or for n00bs. Probably because it's useless? 

Also no mention of the Gladius type strobe to aid in gun/intruder defence either?

.


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## Lee1959 (Dec 6, 2005)

Strictly my opinion only, but for a new shooter to use and rely upon a laser sight is not a good idea. First they should learn proper gun handling and sight picture, and then once they get good, can if they like move to a laser or optcal sight. What happens at 3 AM, or in a stress situation and the battery pukes in the laser, they get dead, or worse yet the loved one they are trying to protect gets dead, since they do not have the trained muscle, eye and hand memory aquired from shooting hundreds maybe thousands of rounds using normal sights, in various positions. KISS simple is the way I prefer things like this. 

And yes, guns are a very final, unforgiving of mistakes option, one should consider very long and hard before deciding to purchase, carry and use in self defense. Each person has to try to the best of their ability to reconcile the possible taking of another humans life in defense of theirs, or a loved one, and this is a HUGE descion and responsiblity not to be taken lightly nor jumped into on a whim. 

JMO


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## CroMAGnet (Dec 6, 2005)

Lee1959 said:


> And yes, guns are a very final, unforgiving of mistakes option, one should consider very long and hard before deciding to purchase, carry and use in self defense. Each person has to try to the best of their ability to reconcile the possible taking of another humans life in defense of theirs, or a loved one, and this is a HUGE descion and responsiblity not to be taken lightly nor jumped into on a whim.
> 
> JMO


Very well put.


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## markdi (Dec 6, 2005)

Bravo25 

no handgun or shoulder fired rifle round will knock some one back 50 feet.

not even a .50 cal mk 21 raoufous - Multipurpose (armor-piercing, explosive, incendiary) shoulder fired from a rifle.

I still can not beleve any one over 18 can buy the mk 21 raoufous.
37 bucks a round - Equivalent to a one inch projectile.

a lot more energy is disapated in the weapon than ever reaches the target.

I have a kimber arms .380 super higher velocity and 10 more ft lbs of energy than a .45 round.

and a 9 mm auto - 22 magnum auto etc.

the .45 has the quickest bleed out rate of any pistol round - average 3 seconds to lights out if you are hit in chest.

the 1911 is as accurate and reliable as any other high quality auto pistol.


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## 270winchester (Dec 6, 2005)

The 1911 is not for the buy-and-forget-until-need-to-use crowd. It does need periodical maintainence and care, in other words a shooter's gun. The gun needs a basic understanding of how it works to keep it go bang every time. That's my concern for first time buyers, where they may not know how important it is to keep the gun lubed, the ramp polished, and the extractor properly tensioned. 

I say for a first gun a revolver like a Ruger is a good start, from there on the learning curve will be a lot less steep.

But the 1911's recoil is very light when compared to many light weight plastic 9's, it's extremely easy to shoot accurately.

Nick


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## WDR65 (Dec 6, 2005)

I don't know a whole lot about 1911's but if someone was the purchase the basic model...something like the Springfield GI 1911 that had looser tolerances than the target and match guns I would think that it would work fine as buy and forget gun. Shoot enough to familarize yourself with it and take it out a couple of times a year to fire and clean it. I could be wrong on this, but I though the basic military 1911's were fairly reliable and durable over time, just the newer models that are super accurate have much tighter tolerances and require more care.

Edit: My reason for saying this is that the least used handgun in my house is the 1911A1. We're all decent shots with it and could do some damage indoors before we got to a more powerful shotgun or rifle. It sits in a secure location in the living room and is normally there for six months out of the year.


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## markdi (Dec 6, 2005)

acording to the show tales of the gun on the history channel.

troops in veitnam - korea were issued 1911"s from ww2 that were - well used - abused - worn out and they were not reliable or accurate.

so if the gun that was issued to you sucked - they all must suck.

especially when a failure can cost you your life.


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## johns (Dec 6, 2005)

Just my opinion - but I have owned a lot of shotguns and handguns. 
If its just for home defense get a shotgun.
I have several custom 1911 style 45s, but The pistols I enjoy shooting the most are also the ones that are easiest to take down to clean. My H&K USP 45 eats any ammo I have ever used (including shells I reloaded that were begining to bulge). Its a breeze to take down the quality is excellent. I also enjoy shooting my Sig Sauer - 220 - .45 cal. Easy to take down and clean as well. A little more fussy than the H&K though.
I have other Sigs in other calibers - they are all excellent pistols, but all of these have double stack mags. 
For concealed carry, I love my little Kel Tec p11 - 9mm with a belt clip on it - 10 rds. of 9mm and very concealable. I haven't carried my Colt LWO since I got the KelTec.
Good luck deciding !


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## Glass (Dec 6, 2005)

While I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone who took the time to post on this subject, but there has been a ton of utter nonsense put forth.

As a long time gun nut and a LEO for a while, there are a few things I want to chime in with.

1) Jeff Cooper once stated that carrying a firearm no more makes you a warrior than owning a guitar makes you a musician. This is a vast understatement. Without a fighting mindset and combative training, you are allowing any confrontation you get into to be a fair fight. You do not want a fair fight! You want to dominate your opponent because he may get lucky and kill you but you want to stack the deck in your favor.

2) Surviving any confrontation is 60% mindset, 30% defensive skills, 5% luck, and 5% weapon type. SEALS, Green Beret, Marine Recon, ParaRescue, and LE SWAT teams aren’t what they are because they pack MP5s and wear black. They are bada**es because they have an aggressive “I will not lose” mindset instilled into them along with training in correct combat tactics.

3) Like was said earlier, short of a 40mm HE round center of mass, there are no sure “one shot stops.” Legally speaking, if you are in the position where your only alternative was to use deadly force, then use it bigtime. Firing one round could look like a panic shot instead of a calculated decision to defend your life. Also, caliber, load, and bullet design go out the window when you slam 6 or 8 rounds into the chest cavity of your assailant. While I agree that a .22 can be considered underpowered for self-defense, you do not need an SW .500 either. Get something you can shoot accurately and quickly.

4) Going to the range and firing a few hundred rounds at a paper target is not training. I would suggest spending no more than $600 on gun and holster system then save up some more and go to a school like Thunder Ranch, Frontsite, Gunsite, Valhalla, etc. for a few days. Whatever school you choose *must* contain training on shooting while moving, shooting from the ground, shooting from cover, and weapon retention.

5) Whatever type of gun you choose is really secondary to the larger issue of training. Revolvers are great for personal defense but so are autos. You do not need or want a HK Mk23 nor do you need a custom built 1911. You want a weapon that has acceptable “combat accuracy” and is reliable. Do not skimp on holsters because you’ll be hating life if you go the cheap route then try to pass a combat handgun course.

6) If you decide to get a long gun, I would suggest you start with a .22 to learn the fundamentals of rifle shooting then move up to the adult size stuff.

7) Finally, the folks on this board a great people who have a lot of knowledge regarding lights, but I would suggest warriortalk.com for more info on self-defense. Many of the folks there are experienced street cops or exec protection guys who really know what they are talking about. There are a few dozen people there that have survived gunfights and have a lot of insight.

Personally, I carry a Glock 22 as my main duty weapon and I have a Glock 27 as a BUG. I also have a Bushmaster M4 and an FNFAL. I like them all.

Patrick
P.S. I do not mean any offense to anyone here but I had to clear some stuff up.


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## 270winchester (Dec 6, 2005)

markdi said:


> acording to the show tales of the gun on the history channel.
> 
> 
> troops in veitnam - korea were issued 1911"s from ww2 that were - well used - abused - worn out and they were not reliable or accurate.
> ...



The factory new government models were EXTREMELy reliable, I've heard plenty of stories from my grandpa of his and his pals' governemnt 45s that dropped in muddy fields of France and they kept going bang everytime. But used 1911s are as good as a a russian roulette revolver that has been fire 4 times, hit and miss. I have seen used pieces that I'm surprised hasn't shot the previous owners

In other words, in this case if the GIs in WWII took more of their combat pieces home, the troops in Vietnam and Korea would fare much better since they would then get new 1911s that were already in stock. The US government ordered so many 1911s in WWII that they never bought again from the contractors all the way until 1980s. 

Given the condition they were stored in I'm not suprised there were horror stories, imagine throw your most used benchmade knife in a wet, warm box for 20 years and bring it out for use in a harsh jungle or temperature of 30 below zero, and you wonder why it doesn't work all that well.

I'm a strong believer in "peace through superior fire power", and this is a good example of that.

Nick


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## innerlight (Dec 6, 2005)

Beretta 92FS or whatever model number they are calling it these days.
I owned one for years and loved it, sold it when the first of the kiddies came on the scene.

Good fit for my hand, accurate (it was a better gun than I was a shooter anyway) and never jammed on JHP.

Less expensive than a SIG 226 although that was the gun I really wanted.

Shop around and get a used hi-cap 9mm for $500ish. Manageable recoil with enough power to stop an attacker, or so I have read. I have never served and never shot a person or animal. 

Give it a look
Good luck


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## TonkinWarrior (Dec 7, 2005)

Glass said:


> While I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone who took the time to post on this subject, but there has been a ton of utter nonsense put forth.
> 
> As a long time gun nut and a LEO for a while, there are a few things I want to chime in with.
> 
> ...


------------------------

Glass:

Welcome to CPF.

Good first post. Your experienced insights are appreciated.


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## TonkinWarrior (Dec 7, 2005)

USARSHOE said:


> Just note on ammo. I don't know if it was mentioned before or not but when carrying a handgun for defense and god forbid that you need to use it, the best ammo to have in the gun is one marked "personal defense" on the box. In front of a jury using any high power such as Corbon (my personal favorite) looks much worse than an ammo meant to defend yourself.
> 
> My 2 cents.



USARSHOE:

Your Legal/Jury sensitivity to self-defense ammo is smart... especially given that you live in a fairly "blue" state. 

Certainly, hand-loads are very unwise anywhere, as is ammo with names that can be twisted to beget an emotional response from a jury comprised of ballistically-illiterate, gun-dumb Sheeple. Names like "Black Talon" (a regrettable story there), "Razor," "Mugger-Master," and "Instant Thoracic Masher," etc. ain't too wise.

However, I respectfully take issue with your advocacy of so-called "personal defense" ammo. Most of these loads are virtual "wimp" loads simply designed to minimize recoil. A possible exception are the Federal and Remington "downloaded" .357's which make OK loads for short-tubed revolvers.

Federal, who normally makes good stuff, markets some of this "personal defense" ammo. Bear in mind that Federal also once made a similar (down-loaded) ammo line for fed agencies whose female agents couldn't handle the recoil of the regular stuff. The agencies phased-out the wimp loads when they discovered that (a) it wasn't potent enough to reliably cycle semi-autos, and (b) it compromised stopping power. 

Most experts tell us to simply stick to any good factory brand, ideally those that your own state & local LE agencies use. That usually means fairly stout loads, often at +P pressures, in .38, 9mm, and .45 (.40 is usually "+P hot," though, technically speaking, no +P standard exists for .40 ammo). 

Since most LEOs have gone to semi-autos, I've skipped the potent .357 and .44 mags. They're stoppers, but full-charge magnum loads ain't ideal for INSIDE home-defense scenario. Their blast will kill your hearing, thus depriving you of an important sensory faculty... precisely when you'd need maximum situational awareness.

The Corbon brand you mentioned is "court-tested," as is the very hot WinRanger line that's popular with many LE agencies. Just make sure that your weapon -- and you -- are thoroughly up to shooting it.
-------------------------------
"That's a helluva price to pay for bein' stylish."
--Dirty Harry, "Magnum Force" (to the Mayor's snooty personnel rep-lady)


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## Glass (Dec 7, 2005)

Thanks. I wouldn't say I'm that experienced yet, just opinionated. 

I will admit that I used to be the biggest gear gomer out there until I "saw the light" and got some good training. I still like cool stuff (my flashlight addiction is getting worse) but thanks to guys like Gabe Suarez, I now realize that any firearm, TAZER, baton, or knife is just an extension of the real weapon: your brain.

Again, I sincerely hope that I did not offend anyone because that was not my intent. I do, however, feel very strongly about this issue and I want others to know what they need to know to survive an encounter with evil.

Cheerio,
Patrick


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## Dirty Bob (Dec 7, 2005)

If I were to suggest one, I'd say a .357 K-frame S&W 3" or 4", or a Ruger SP101 (3" barrel) in the same caliber. You can practice with cheap, mild .38 ammo and carry .38+p lead hollowpoints (the so-called FBI Load). IMHO, .357 has too much flash, blast and recoil for many people, especially if they don't shoot much.

For a second gun, find a Taurus, S&W or Ruger (SP-101) .22 revolver for practice. You can get much more "trigger time" with the .22, and good habits can be built with the rimfire. It's also a heckuva fun gun to shoot and is great for introducing new shooters to handguns.

I concur with the recommendation of training.

Warm regards,
Dirty Bob


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## TonkinWarrior (Dec 9, 2005)

The cumulative firearms wisdom in this thread constitutes an invaluable resource for CPF members.

However, it suddenly strikes me that this thread still lacks input from one of the greatest handgun/ballistics/shooting experts around today: Katie Couric, that world-renowned weapons guru from the NBC TV "Today" show.

Why, only yesterday Ms. Couric displayed her dazzling expertise and Street Smarts -- in front of millions -- when she grilled a former Federal Air Marshall (FAM) about the recent terrorist-suspect shooting at the Miami airport. Her insistent suggestions that FAMs should be trained to shoot at non-lethal body parts (like fingers, legs, etc.) is truly inspired thinking. I'm sure that Law Enforcement agencies and leading civilian self-defense trainers across the land will soon be rushing to incorporate this "enlightened" (*cough*) view into their programs. 

Rumor also has it that cutesy Katie has future-show plans to grill leading flashlight engineers about why they haven't designed modern/safer torches that are non-vision-disruptive to children, gerbils, and butterflies. 

I don't know about you, but I can hardly wait for her next pearls of progressive wisdom from the Institute For The Terminally Naive.


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## Lee1959 (Dec 9, 2005)

gee I dont know, it might be a valid self defense logic, IF, you shoot enough fingers and toes off your assailant fast enough, he might not be able to manipulate his weapon, or run after you while you run trying to get out of the blast area of the bomb he still sets off... But, won't he, in this brave new world, sue you for maiming him? Better yet, why don't they just give the Air Marshall one of those chalk equipped rubber training knives so they can scare the terrorists by showing them what would happen if it was real...


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## cslinger (Dec 9, 2005)

One day though I bet we will have the equivilent of the Star Trek phaser on stun. That truely is the SD weapon to strive for 99% one shot stops, completely non-lethal, great range.

Until that happens I will stick with what works and if I ever need to use deadly force to defend myself or family it will be center mass to stop the threat as quickly as possible. I cannot believe the ignorance of the non shooting public in believing that it is possible to make a split second, high stress decision and then be able to Annie Oakley a nice clean wounding shot. The point is if a threat escalates to the point that a firearm must be employeed that threat is to receive deadly force.


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## colubrid (Dec 9, 2005)

For your first gun get a revolver. If an automatic jams or misfires then you are stuck. A revolver cannot jam. It can misfire but then all you have to do is pull the rigger again and *pow*, you can't do that with an auto.


Get a S&W model 19 with a 3" or 2 1/2" (not 4" or 6") inch barrel for carry and self defense. For target shooting a longer barrel is okay but concealed carry is going to be a problem. The S&W is basically similar to a mod 19 but a whole lot beefier. The 686 was meant to withstand a steady diet of .357 and the mod 19 you can shoot .38 a lot and .357 a little less than the 686. Of course the number of .357 bullets you shoot through a 19 would have to be over 10,000+ to rerally cause any stress. So unless you plan on spending huge amounts of money on ammo I would not worry about it.

Most autos (except for like the Glock) will jam and will need some work (mods)and more training. The revolver is the king for picking the thing up and shooting. Goes bang every time and thats whatt you want.

Here is a great website on S&W revelovers. Great bunch of guys over there as well.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve

Other than this.. learn what to say after a shooting and you will be free of legal hassles.


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## cslinger (Dec 10, 2005)

Ok just to clarify a couple of other things.

1st revolvers can and do malfunction. A simple malfunction is getting a piece of brass stuck under the ejection star. Typically though if a revolver does malfunction it takes the gun out of the fight where a semi auto is typically relatively easy to clear. 

2nd Glocks do indeed malfunction. You must train to be able to handle a malfunction with whatever your chosen firearm is. I have shot lots of guns and I have seen all types malfunction in some way or another.

Now that being said I certainly can't say a revolver is a bad choice. Revolvers have many advantages over a semi auto and to be honest I frequently carry a revolver. Just be aware that revolvers, like all machines can and will F' Up just when you need them most. Mr. Murphey is like that and he is good at his job. Learn to deal with any type of malfunction your chosen arm may have. 

Chris


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## frankm (Dec 10, 2005)

My suggestion comes from me not having unlimited funds. What I'm talking about is the cost of ammo. I've got two .22's and three 9mm's. Both calibers are very affordable. I'd like to own some of the larger calibers but the cost of ammo is ridiculous.


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## savumaki (Dec 10, 2005)

Problem solved--move to Canada!!!!!!!!!!!!
You may not be aware of our upcoming federal election in Jan; all the political bull excrement is flowing fast and furious.
Our current illustrious leader is proposing an entire BAN on handguns :huh2:.

Target shooters/collectors will have to jump thru all the hoops again, regardless of status.

Sorry about that; it is somewhat off the topic. 
My choice of handgun, from experience, I've settled on a large bore wheelgun; I personally find it more reliable. FWIW

Thanks-------K


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## colubrid (Dec 13, 2005)

*1st revolvers can and do malfunction. A simple malfunction is getting a piece of brass stuck under the ejection star. Typically though if a revolver does malfunction it takes the gun out of the fight where a semi auto is typically relatively easy to clear. *
Not according to the thousands of gun artilcles on this subject.


* 

*
*2nd Glocks do indeed malfunction. You must train to be able to handle a malfunction with whatever your chosen firearm is. I have shot lots of guns and I have seen all types malfunction in some way or another.*

Yes a Glock can fail. It is usually something that happens after buying a new Glock. Most of the malfunctions are resolved after break in. If not then there is the occasional Glock that needs to be sent back to the factory. 

Rule of thumb is put 500 rounds through any auto to insure reliabilty before depending on it saving your life.

Bottom line revolvers don't "simply" malfunction. It is about as rare as walking on the moon.


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## cslinger (Dec 13, 2005)

Testing.


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## cslinger (Dec 13, 2005)

Bottom line revolvers don't "simply" malfunction. It is about as rare as walking on the moon

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. I have shot a lot, I mean a whole lot and I have shot with many people and the fact is revolvers can and most certainly do malfunction from time to time. The frequency of these malfunctions does seem less then a semi-auto but the frequency of revolver shooters is currently less as well.

Things I have personally seen or experienced include.

Brass getting stuck under the ejector star. Happens more with Rugers.
Brass getting stuck in the cylinder due to build up.
Revolver going out of time causing lead to spray from the sides and in some cases causing the revolver to not fire.
Transfer bar breaking.
Mainspring breaking. (It happens I have seen it)
Ejector rod/assembly coming unscrewed and locking the cylinder into the closed position.
Bullets working their way out from the case under recoil and locking up the gun.

Revolvers also tend to gum up more easily in the "MUCK" so to speak.

All I am saying is they are man made machines just as susceptible to Mr. Murphey as any other. Know the PRO's, CON's and possible malfunctions of any chosen platform and always have a contingency plan.

Once again no disrespect, ill will or flames are meant in any way. I just wanted to post my personal experiences and beliefs.......which those and a buck still won't get you a cup a coffee at Starbucks.


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## Dirty Bob (Dec 13, 2005)

I like to recommend revolvers because the manual of arms is simpler. Regarding the reloading issues (unburned powder under ejector star, brass under the star, etc.), these do happen rarely, but a revolver is highly likely to fire whatever's loaded in it without trouble, provided good factory ammo is being used.

I've used a revolver during a high-stress situation, though I didn't have to fire it. I was glad, after the fact, for the fact that I didn't have to worry about safties or other distractions, and the heavy trigger pull was like a passive safety to prevent an AD while pointing the gun in the direction of another human being. My fine motor skills were pretty bad at the time, and I had a lot of trouble dialing 911 on a cordless phone with the thumb of my left hand, Taurus 85CH in my right, while someone tried to break down my front door. :sweat:

I became a convert to double action for the first shot on that day.

Regards,
Dirty Bob


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## cslinger (Dec 13, 2005)

I like to recommend revolvers because the manual of arms is simpler.

Absolutely, which is one of the revolver's biggest strengths. My only reason for pointing out possible issues is that anybody selecting a firearm that could possibly be used for serious defensive use should be aware of all factors and all things that could go wrong. I am a plan B, C and D kind of guy. Boy Scout what do you want. 

Chris


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## Dirty Bob (Dec 13, 2005)

Chris,

I think we're in general agreement. Neither revolvers nor autopistols are the perfect answer, in spite of the thousands of gunrag articles that have touted the "ultimate" defensive handgun.

It's these "one size fits all" recommendations that seem to cause the big arguments.

In the end, it's a very personal decision, and I'm glad that folks like you are putting forth as much info as possible, to help others make a decision that's right for them.

Thanks,
Dirty Bob


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## lite brite (Dec 14, 2005)

Glock


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## Aaron1100us (Dec 14, 2005)

Get a GLOCK. I've got the Glock 22 which is .40 caliber and love it. Three safeties, it won't break, rust, jam, missfire and they are very very accurate. Plus you can add a light and or a lazer to the rail under the barrel. Safest, most reliable and accurate handgun on the market today.


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## wmpwi (Dec 14, 2005)

Maybe in a tuperware based firearm, but in HK country, them's fight'n words. :nana: 





Aaron1100us said:


> Get a GLOCK. I've got the Glock 22 which is .40 caliber and love it. Three safeties, it won't break, rust, jam, missfire and they are very very accurate. Plus you can add a light and or a lazer to the rail under the barrel. Safest, most reliable and accurate handgun on the market today.


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## 270winchester (Dec 15, 2005)

Maybe it's my "all steel, single action, single stack" personality, but ain't no way I'll pay 500+ for a plastic gun. Glocks are so cheap to make and yet the consumers don't get to share the cost saving, might as well buy a gun made of quality steel for that amount of money...


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## Glass (Dec 15, 2005)

They aren't that cheap to manufacture. 

The slide, barrel, and internals are machined just like any 1911. The frame is molded, but it is molded over steel components. 

"But there are less parts." Yep, I like my weapons to be just like me, simple.


Besides, I paid $485 for my G22 (brand new) about 3 years ago from a gun store.

I grew up shooting 1911s and my dad is a devout Browning man but I picked "Combat Tupperware" because it was lighter weight and it goes "bang" every time I want it to. My dad almost dis-owned me.

I still love the old workhorse 1911s but I trust my life to the Glock.

To each his own...
Patrick


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## Lee1959 (Dec 15, 2005)

Glocks perhaps more than any other handgun I have heard people either love totally, or hate totally. People tend to swear at them or by them for some reason. I have seen documented stories of a Glock shooting several hundred thousand rounds and being tortured withtout missing a beat, and stories of them having to be reparied constantly for naggy little breakages. Like any other firearm, there are good ones and bad ones. Its is one of those controversies that will continue for all time between people that like polymer and those who don't. 

Whatever you choose, learn to shoot it correctly, shoot it often, and take great care of it as your life may well depend upon it. The biggest part of any defense system, is you, your state of mind, so take good care of yourself also and make informed, rational, logical choices always based upon you, your capabilities, your hand, your determination to live.


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## Glass (Dec 15, 2005)

Exactly.

You are the weapon, guns and knives are just tools.

Patrick


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## WillnTex (Dec 15, 2005)

I spent about an hour writing a really long post and then decided against it. It’s really a personal choice. As long as you have a reliable firearm that you know how to use effectively and are comfortable with that is what is important. Choose a caliber that you can shoot comfortably. As a minimum I would say at least 38. Larger calibers are better but not that important in a handgun. Also make sure the ammo you intend to use in the gun works reliably. Run several boxes of what you intend to carry through the gun. I have seen several guns that just do not feed certain ammo. We recently shot some frangible ammo that would not cycle in several of our guns. Two quick points on safety know how you gun works and be familiar with it and keep your finger off of the trigger. A Glock is perfectly safe when you index. 

A shotgun is a great defensive weapon just make sure you know how to navagate close quarters with a long gun before you do so.



Someone also asked about lasers. Other than for psychological effect I do not have a use for them on a pistol. I’ve had people use one of my Glocks that had a laser and all he was able to do with it was to indicate which plate he was shooting at before he jerked the trigger and missed. I do like weaponlights and have them on almost everything I carry. I recently went to a simunition class where they used the Gladius. It can be pretty effective in the dark. I had no use for the variable power and different programmable modes but the strobe effect was better than I expected. 



Lastly get some training. If you can go to a school that uses simunitions do so. The lessons you will learn by doing something stupid and then getting lit up with them is a real eye opener. I’ve been able to go to several and each time I enjoy them more. In case you are wondering yeah they kinda smart. 

Everything contained here is just my opinion for what it is worth.


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## MScottz (Dec 15, 2005)

Ok, I'll admit I really haven't read all of ths thread, but here are my thoughts. 

The most important factor, is YOU! Find people that you can go to the range with that have different models and calibers. You need to see what fits you the best, and what you can shoot the best. I don't care how great a Glock or whatever is for womeone else if it doesn't feel right for you. I've had some autos that I couldn't shoot worth a crap, but I could hip-shoot my SAA .45LC and knock down soda cans at 20 yards all day long. I've also had DA revolvers that I couldn't shoot worth a damn, it's just a matter of what fits you. 



> Lastly get some training.


 
I would say that this should come first!

P.S.
If the 1911 is so bad, why are so many LEO's going back to it?


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## WillnTex (Dec 15, 2005)

The 1911 is a great gun. The only thing that moved me to a glock was that it gave me less trouble in bad weather.

Training should always be first but trying to convince some folks that they need to take off a week of work and drop a bunch of money to go somewhere like Gunsite, Thunder Ranch or somewhere like that can be kinda hard.


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## MScottz (Dec 15, 2005)

One of my high school friends used to do some smithing for Thunder, I really need to ship him my Springer for some tweaking.


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## hank (Dec 15, 2005)

Several people have commented that it's more attitude and skill than what weapon you have.

My story -- I spend a lot of my free time working on a forest fire restoration, "so far back in the Forest that you're coming out the other side" quite literally. We are often up there camping with friends who have small kids.

Several times we've had people shooting in the area who either weren't aware we were on the private property, or didn't care.

Usually just firing up the car and heading up the mountain road for them chases them out. If not -- 

Each time I've walked in on people -- from behind, coming out of the woods saying quite audibly into my walkie talkie the last few digits of their license plate tag and vehicle type and color, then "hang on, I'm here" and walked over to them.

The last three were retired Navy Seals who'd come in from the other side of the Forest, and literally didn't know they were midway and could expect to be meeting people.

We got to be friendly fairly quickly. The next year they were back, and when I went up they showed me how careful they'd been, again, with their backstop and targets, told me they'd already spoken to several other groups of shooters to tell them they were being careless -- and said if I"d walked in on them carrying a firearm, they'd have taken charge of me right quickly.

But "when we saw you came in with a radio -- THAT was a threat we couldn't control" -- and after I'd talked it up and told them how many people I was in touch with on the local repeater, who were paying attention, they'd gotten their own ham radio licenses in the previous year.

Get your ham license first, is my advice. It's incredibly easy to do.

Why be alone with a gun in your hand, when you can show up unthreatening but holding a radio, and have ten or a dozen people in all directions who know exactly where you are, and exactly what you're seeing?

My wife had the other radio and the weapons; if anything threatening had happened, she'd have known everything she needed to decide what to do, without ever showing her face, including that she could stay out of sight and call in other help from several directions.


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## TacStar (Dec 16, 2005)

I am a part-time self-defense, tactical, and firearms safety instructor with 18 years experience in this area. There is a lot of good advise on this thread, as well as some that is not so good. Take note of the posts from Glass and Tonkin Warrior especially- excellent advise. Here are my recommendations for you, and also observations based on my experience:

First and foremost, get the best training that you can afford. Start with a firearms safety course, and next take a CCW course. Since you will sometimes be carrying your handgun it is very important to know the laws and legal ramifications of carrying a weapon. The same applies for use of force in your home.

It is true that having proper situational awareness and mindset is the paramount factor in a defensive situation. Also, either at home or in public, having the necessary means to avoid a confrontation or flee if possible are important. Be constantly alert so that you are never taken by surprise. Have a cell phone on you at all times. Have a section of you home that you can barricade yourself in if possible. In public, flee if at all possible. If forced with a confrontation keep a clear head, and do everything in you power to de-escalate the situation. Use force only as a last resort. If your only option is to use force, keep in mind that in most jurisdictions, you may only use equal or lesser force to counter your opponent. If someone is attacking you and they are unarmed, you probally would not be justified in using a handgun or other lethal force. For these situations less-lethal options such as pepper spray and empty-hand skills are important. Also if you are serious about self-defense in your home and abroad, consider getting training in hand-to-hand techniques, as well as edged weapons. Nothing beats a good knife aganinst an armed assailant at contact range.

As for your potential choice of the SIG 226, they are excellent guns, but I would recommend if that is what you choose, that you get it in the DAO (double-action only) variant. That way you will have the same consistant trigger pull for every shot. Under the stress of having to use one in a defensive situation, it will help keep your shooting consistant. Many of our students, esp. those who have not spent a large amount of time shooting, will often throw the first couple of shots on a traditional DA gun when under pressure. This is because when shooting at the range, almost every shot is fired in single action mode. When the gun is decocked, which is how it should be at home or when being carried, the first shot is a heavier pull double-action, then the second and subsequent ones are single action. Your fine motor skills will deteriorate some, or a lot under stress which causes the problem. Also you will not have to worry about the added complexity of a decock variant. After having this happen most of our students who are able to do so will switch to a DAO gun or to a striker fired one such as Glocks Kahrs, etc.

As for revolvers, there are several very good ones on the market, and if that is what you like they can be an exellent choice for a defensive and range gun. I personally love them- there is something about their mechanisms and functioning that intrigues me. I often carry a S&W Airweight .38sp Centenial as a back up. As for the reliability issue, any revolver or semi-auto can malfunction if improperly maintained. Neither is necessarily overall better than the other. My Ruger SP101 revolver can take an incredible amount of gunk before it jams up, yet my SIG P210 will not funcion reliably when subjected to a fair amount of fouling. Many criticize revolvers for their lack of capacity and that they can be slower to reload. My thought on this, would you go head to head with revolver guys such as Bill Jordan or Jim Cirillo even if armed with the latest high-capacity wonder auto? I think not. Also look at how fast Jerry Miculek reloads one and how quickly and accurately he shoots one. Some God-given skill I''m sure, but also incredible amount of consistant practice.

I am a total 1911 whore and my main carry guns are a Larry Vickers custom lightweight Commander or a Cylinder and Slide custom Para LDA CCW, both .45 ACP. I also carry a Cylinder and Slide custom Kahr P40 quite a bit. I carry inside waistband, and like thinner guns. For that reason I can't stand to carry thicker guns such as Glocks on a daily basis. My little wife doesn't seem to mind though, and carries a .40 Glock 23 daily. The Glock 23 is on the other hand one of my favorite range guns. I can carry it on a regular strong side holster comfortably. They are very durrable- we have a Glock 19 that has over 120,000 rounds through it and has only had springs changed out as preventative maintainence. Due to their slight complexity I would not recommend a 1911 or any other gun that has manual safeties, decock levers, etc. as a first choice. I would strongly recommend a striker fired DAO such as a Glock, Kahr, Springfield XD, etc. Like a single action 1911, they have a nice trigger pull, and are easy to shoot accurately under stress.

Also since you will sometimes be carrying, a good holster is just as important as the gun itself. It amazes me how many people shell out $1000+ for a good handgun, and then balk at having to spend over $20 for anything better than the mainstream nylon garbage that is commonly sold at most gun stores. A good custom hoster that will properly and securely retain your gun, yet allow for a quick draw is very important. I personally prefer leather- all my holsters are sharkskin with cowhide or kangaroo linings. A well-designed Kydex holster is also a good option if you like them, but I personally find them uncomfortable for carrying a handgun. I prefer them for my fixed blade knives though. Also if you are able to do so borrow or try on some holsters to see what holster/gun combination feels best.

Good sights are also very important. Since most deadly encounters and home invasions occur at night, having good tritium night sights will make it easier to see the sights in low-light conditions. My personal favorite is the XS Big Dot Express sights. They are very easy to see and extremely quick to line up. Very good when your life is on the line. Also I don't need to mention that a good tactical light- preferably 60 lumens or more is a very important tool to have at all times.

As far as ammo selection, first it is true that proper shot placement is the most critacal factor. The latest wonder round is useless if it misses your target. There is a large selection of good defensive ammo on the market. Pick something that is accurate and utterly reliable in the gun that you choose. Practice with that ammo often. Also make sure that the gun you choose functions flawlessly. Put at least 500 rounds thought it to start with. Any mis-feeds or jams are unaceptable in something that you will be staking your life on. I would also recommend that you pick something in .38sp, 9mm or larger. Your indicated choice of .40 S&W would be a good choice. Although all handguns have relatively poor stopping power, the street records of anything smaller show significantly lower stopping performance.

Lastly, practice, practice, practice- on a consistant basis. I would recommend that you shoot in a local IDPA competition- it is a great way to hone your skills and find out how you react under stress. Keep your firearm clean, properly lubricated, and in perfect working conditon at all times. Continue to expand your training- you can never get too much. 

___________________________________

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."- Robert A. Heinlein, *Beyond This Horizon*, 1942

The fastest draw is when the sword never leaves the scabbard.
The strongest way to block is to never provoke a blow.
And the cleanest cut is the one withheld.

Follow not in the footsteps of the masters, but rather seek what they sought.

"Strategy is the craft of the warrior"- Miyamoto Musashi


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## TacStar (Dec 21, 2005)

An update on my views of the SIG P226. One of my best friends/co-trainers was at my house Sunday afternoon, and had his new carry/range gun, a SIG P229 DAK .40 S&W. The DAK trigger is a lighter DAO trigger, and to me has a very similar feel as a Kahr trigger. The pull is around 6lbs., and is nice and smooth. I put 1200 rounds through it on my backyard range. I am going to buy one myself, probably the compact P239 DAK. The SIG P226R DAK has the same trigger mode, and also an intregal light rail on the frame. If you really like the SIG, I would not hesitate one bit to recommend this gun.


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## xochi (Dec 21, 2005)

TacStar,

Judging from the handguns you own and shoot, that sounds like a very high recommendation. Not to mention having a backyard range....


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## nethiker (Feb 21, 2006)

Glock 36.

Concealable single stack .45 

A small gun with a big caliber package that you can carry discretely durring a time of crisis. I wouldn't want to advertise that I was armed when the national guard is going to show up with automatic weapons looking for trouble makers. 

Glocks are forgiving to dirty environments and the Glock safety is a big plus for me in terms of ease of use and safety.

Edit: I forgot light. When carrying all day, light is good.


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## Brighteyez (Feb 21, 2006)

I'm sure you're not the only one who has thought that way. Statistically though, your purchase of a firearm under those circumstances generally increases the likelihood that you or a member of your family will become the victim of a gun related injury or death, and the weapon is more likely to be the firearm that you purchased whether it be at your own hand, the hand of a family member, or violently at the hand of a person unknown to you.



xochi said:


> Hey
> The situation in N.O. has me thinking that I should buy a gun.


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## MScottz (Feb 21, 2006)

Let me guess, you're against gun ownership?


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## Raven (Feb 21, 2006)

Brighteyez said:


> I'm sure you're not the only one who has thought that way. Statistically though, your purchase of a firearm under those circumstances generally increases the likelihood that you or a member of your family will become the victim of a gun related injury or death, and the weapon is more likely to be the firearm that you purchased whether it be at your own hand, the hand of a family member, or violently at the hand of a person unknown to you.



The study you are referring to is bogus, because it fails to take into account criminals that are wounded, held at gunpoint until the police arrive, or who see an armed civilian and run away. Since none of these three instances result in the criminal being killed, they weren't counted in the statistics, which is just another reason why statistics shouldn't be trusted, in and of themselves.


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## Lightraven (Feb 21, 2006)

There are people who are very interested in the ability to defend themselves. And there are people who rely on others and good luck to keep them from harm. I believe that early experiences in life (i.e. victimization) tend to lead people to one side or the other. Where my family members were never victimized, I was in minor ways. Guess who now owns and carries a gun?

There are all kinds of risks in life. Having a gun around is one risk. Not having a gun around is another.

I was born in Los Angeles, home of various riots over the years.

Recently, there was a mass murder at a postal facility in Goleta, California. I lived variously from one to three miles from that area for about 9 years. My mom still lives and works about 3 miles away.

About a year ago, a crazy person deliberately murdered a bunch of people with his car at UC Santa Barbara, where I spent four years getting my degree.

I work near the San Ysidro area where one of the first mass murders took place at a McDonalds. 

My coworker has a son who attends Santana High School, where a student went on a shooting rampage.

A Chula Vista Police Officer was shot at about a block from my apartment when I got home from work a few months back.

Of course, robberies and assaults are routine and don't get national attention.

Statistics from an unbiased source can be useful information, but in this case, common sense is obvious. The gun moves the locus of control, and the danger, from a criminal/psychopath, to the gun owner. Where there is little or no violent crime, a gun may be more dangerous than its worth. But neither I, nor my family live in Utopia.

Finally, I just got a Springfield XD-40 subcompact. Haven't shot it yet. Cool!


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## 357 (Feb 21, 2006)

Frangible said:


> Revolvers, imo, suck. They're supposedly more reliable than automatics, yet testing has clearly shown some automatics such as Glocks and HKs to have greater than average reliability than revolvers. They are also slow to reload, don't hold very many rounds, and don't buffer recoil.



Of the three Glocks I've owned through the years, NONE have been 100 percent reliable. One was a jam-o-matic, and the other two were good but failed from time to time. I won't comment on the HKs since I've never owned one.

I've never experienced a revolver malfunction--even though I shoot revolvers a lot more than semi-autos. 

It is my experience that a properly maintained, well made revolver is far more reliable than a typical semi-auto.

I'd say the exception would be Sig-Sauer. This is the only semi-auto maker that has given me 100 percent reliablity, so far, knock on wood.

Other people's miles may vary.


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## ACMarina (Feb 21, 2006)

Yeah, sometimes that's just the luck of the draw. In the past 12 months the only failure I've seen was a Taurus revolver that even a trip back to the factory couldn't fix.


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## CM (Feb 21, 2006)

Rather than ask for a recommendation, go to the local range and ask someone knowledgeable about the various handguns and advantages, attributes, features, disadvantages of each of the guns they sell. Go visit a few gun shops and do the same. Read up on the ones that take to your fancy, then go back and rent a few at the range and try them out. The choice of a sidearm is a very personal thing and no one person can make that choice for you except yourself. Having said that, you should stay away from cheap (mediocre quality) stuff. Glocks, Sigs, HK's, Berettas, and certain 1911 makes (Kimber comes to my mind) are all high quality guns but it's not an all inclusive list. Within each you'll find some hardcores that says X is the best and Y sucks (substitute any of the makes above for X and Y) and while it may be true for that person, it may not be true for you. Do your own research, formulate your own opinion, and good luck with your choice.


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## 357 (Feb 22, 2006)

ACMarina said:


> Yeah, sometimes that's just the luck of the draw. In the past 12 months the only failure I've seen was a Taurus revolver that even a trip back to the factory couldn't fix.



I don't consider Taurus to be one of the quality revolvers (or semi-autos) on the market. Personally, I wouldn't depend on Taurus (their revolvers OR semi-autos) to protect my family....as a paper weight a Taurus would be okay I guess...

I don't mean to imply their all bad, only that its very hit and miss with Taurus.


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## JonSidneyB (Feb 22, 2006)

The Truth is a handgun is a very personal thing and what is best for one person is not best for another.

I would try several.

I have been shooing for more than what is getting close to 40 years, I started very young.

No1 is reliablity. Look at the guns that have a reputation for working.

Next will be caliber. For a primary firearm I would look at any of the calibers from 9x19 on up to .45 acp for automatics. For revolvers I would only consider .38 plus P as a minimum and .357 magnum. The more powerful cartridges are a little fierce for a street gun. I carry an oddball 9x23 as my carry auto but if your new to this I would stay with the common cartridges.

While I have moved to an Autoloader I would feel just as safe with a revolver. Actually revolvers are probably better for those that are new and do not practice regularly.

A plus is to be able to get a .22 rimfire that matches your carry gun or an accessory slide for the handgun. This will allow you lower recoil as you learn the fine art of trigger control.


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## magic79 (Feb 22, 2006)

357 said:


> Of the three Glocks I've owned through the years, NONE have been 100 percent reliable. One was a jam-o-matic, and the other two were good but failed from time to time.
> 
> Other people's miles may vary.


 
Indeed milage may vary. I have owned one or more Glocks since 1990. In those 16 years, my 1990 Glock 21 has never had a failure. I have put about 12,000 rounds through it. I currently have five Glocks in various calibers from .357 Sig to .45 ACP. I have had two failures total in the Glocks, oddly one was two weeks ago, but it was partially my fault as I didn't get a reload fully seated and the next round stovepiped.

HOWEVER...before I bought my G33, I rented a G33, G27, and G36 at a local range. Talk about jam-o-matics! I have no idea how many rounds have gone through those, (they were second generation) but none would lock open when empty and the locking notches were practically worn off. 

You still have to maintain any gun...including Glock and Sig!

As for the "statistics" that show you're more likely to be involved in violence if you have a gun, I can only recall the Good Guys robbery in Sacramento a few years ago where the bad guys ran through the store shooting everyone as the cops raided the store. One citizen with a gun would have resulted in a very different end. I will accept whatever imagined risk there is and continue to legally carry my Glock.


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## ACMarina (Feb 22, 2006)

357 said:


> I don't consider Taurus to be one of the quality revolvers (or semi-autos) on the market. Personally, I wouldn't depend on Taurus (their revolvers OR semi-autos) to protect my family....as a paper weight a Taurus would be okay I guess...
> 
> I don't mean to imply their all bad, only that its very hit and miss with Taurus.



Ohh, trust me, I feel the same way - if I were going to buy a small-framed revolver I'd go with a J-frame S&W, they've been around for years and it seems to me that they've probably got it down by now..


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## wylde21 (Feb 22, 2006)

I can see from the tone of this thread that my views on gun ownership will not popular, but here goes anyway....

First, I need to state that I believe that arbitrary restrictions on certain classes of firearms (IE: short barrel shotguns and automatic weapons) are reactionary and unneeded…I believe in the right to bear arms. Also, I do currently own firearms, one of which I use for sporting clays, an O/A 12 gage, and one I use for plinking and rodent control, a .22 semi-auto rifle. I have owned and fired many other firearms in the past, as well

Having said all that, when I have friends ask me about buying a gun (it is usually always a handgun they are asking about) and what model is best for “defense” I now cringe. Mind you these are people who have limited to no experience with handguns. I always say don’t buy one, period! With the exception of a police officer and a fireman who live on my road, I really do NOT want people in my area carrying around a gun when I am sure they will refuse to get the proper training and comfort level with the gun. If they plan to leave the gun at home, I suggest a HD pepper spray, better locks on their doors, and if this isn’t enough, then a monitored alarm system. If they were planning on carrying the gun then I recommend self defense training and if it makes them feel better, some non-lethal weapon (small pepper spray, taser, etc) to carry, But my experience is that most situations when a weapon (gun, knife, or non-lethal) might be envisioned to be employed simply happen too fast to retrieve and properly use the weapon.

I know people on this forum have a love for gadgets and when someone loves and owns something they tend to look for reasons to use and recommend their favorite gadgets. In the case of flashlights this is fun and harmless (well, not to the pocketbook  ), but in the case of guns…..I say recommend that only those very very serious about getting and maintaining proper gun handling and shooting training be encouraged to buy firearms.

I also wanted to say that of the four “disasters” that I have lived through and experienced first hand – Mount Saint Helens in 1980, Mexico City earthquake in 1985, Northridge earthquake in 1994, and the eastern seaboard black out a couple years ago I never once said I to myself that I wished I had a gun handy…it simply wasn’t needed. Something to think about.


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## magic79 (Feb 22, 2006)

I'm sure some folks may find your remarks off base, but I sure don't.

Whenever anyone who has never owned a gun asks me for advice in purchasing one for defense, I ask two blunt questions:

1. Can you unequivocally say that if your, or a loved one's life was in danger that you could point a gun at another human being and pull the trigger, knowing that you will likely kill that person?

2. Are you willing to take "lessons" from a qualified instructor and practice at least every few months?

If the answer to either is not an enthusiastic "YES!", I tell them it'd be a better idea not to buy a firearm.

No one would get into an airplane and attempt to fly without training, why do so many people think they don't need training with a firearm? The real scary ones are the people who answer question one with "oh...just producing the gun will scare them off." Oh my.


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## 357 (Feb 22, 2006)

magic79 said:


> Indeed milage may vary. I have owned one or more Glocks since 1990. In those 16 years, my 1990 Glock 21 has never had a failure. I have put about 12,000 rounds through it. I currently have five Glocks in various calibers from .357 Sig to .45 ACP. I have had two failures total in the Glocks, oddly one was two weeks ago, but it was partially my fault as I didn't get a reload fully seated and the next round stovepiped.
> 
> HOWEVER...before I bought my G33, I rented a G33, G27, and G36 at a local range. Talk about jam-o-matics! I have no idea how many rounds have gone through those, (they were second generation) but none would lock open when empty and the locking notches were practically worn off.
> 
> You still have to maintain any gun...including Glock and Sig!



I agreed about maintenance. I keep everything in tip top shape, my car, flashlights, tools, firearms, etc. 

Maintenance keeps tools running longer, more reliable in genaral.


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