# Primary Lithium battery explodes!



## hookoo (Jun 11, 2006)

I had purchased a Turbo Charge cell phone charger about a week ago. http://www.turbocellcharge.com/
Had no problems using with Nimh and Alkalines in this charger. It does get warm, but heard this was pretty normal. According to the products manual, lithiums are okay in this thing so I decided to give it a try. I put in a battery and connected to my phone. The battery capsule felt instantly very hot. Much more then in just normal operation. So, in under 20 seconds I quickly unscrewed the battery holder trying to avoid something much worse, and dumped out the battery on the table. It smelled of smoke and seemed to get even more unstable even out of the capsule. About 10 seconds later. A huge flame shoots out, and like a rocket it shot to the ceiling and bounced and started two small fires. one portion of the ( stuff inside ) landed on an cotton t-shirt by the laundry, that caught on fire. and the other on my wifes skirt. The battery itself melted my carpet. And a huge black stain remains. If it wasn't for the fire extinguisher, I don't think I would have a house. It was very hot and took the entire fire extinguisher to put out the fires.

What the heck happened?


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## enLIGHTenment (Jun 11, 2006)

Looks like another case of lithium ignition. You're really lucky the fire extinguisher did the trick--household extinguishers aren't very effective against metal fires.

What was that cell? A 1.5v Lithium AA?


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## Macaw (Jun 11, 2006)

Looks like a Battery Station 1.5v AA cell. I have these in a bunch of different lights.


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## hookoo (Jun 11, 2006)

it was a battery station lithium AA cell

Yes, I feel lucky it wasn't much worse


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## frisco (Jun 11, 2006)

Ahh ohh!!!! Wow.... I don't know what to think now......

frisco


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## nemul (Jun 11, 2006)

another Battery Station batt? this has gotta suck for them...
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/120888


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## greenLED (Jun 11, 2006)

Nevermind - I thought you were trying to charge the lithium batt.


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## WNG (Jun 11, 2006)

Wow, glad to read you're OK. Could have been potentially worse. That's the 2nd lithium related explosion incident to be reported within this week.
I think I'm forming an opinion on whether these cells are feasible in high current applications. Seems the slightest lack of quality control in construction results in a disaster.


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## hookoo (Jun 11, 2006)

No, I wasn't charging the lithium AA battery. This device boosts the voltage of a AA battery to charge the cell phone battery. Check out http://www.turbocellcharge.com/


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## Atomlite (Jun 11, 2006)

Thank Goodness there is no injury. Hookoo's quick thinking in removing the battery from the charger probably save what could have been a more disastrous outcome.

This is a first time I hear of primary AA lithium exploding. The battery must have short circuited in the turbo charger. Is the charger using a single cell or multi cells setup?


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## enLIGHTenment (Jun 11, 2006)

Has anyone heard of any incidents of Energizer L91 AAs exploding or bursting into flame?

The phone charger is a single cell device so reverse charging can be ruled out. If the charger shorted the battery and the PTC failed to trip, the cell would not have exploded after it was removed from the charger.

Hookoo, can you test the charger with another battery (alkaline or nimh--no fires==good ) to verify that the electronics still work? If the charger electronics shorted out, the charger could have pushed power from the cell phone into the battery. This can be ruled out if the charger still works.


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## Icebreak (Jun 11, 2006)

Possibly that device draws more current than the battery is designed to deliver. 

Be careful with those. I've got some that measure 1.90 Volts.


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## hookoo (Jun 11, 2006)

enLIGHTenment said:


> Has anyone heard of any incidents of Energizer L91 AAs exploding or bursting into flame?
> 
> The phone charger is a single cell device so reverse charging can be ruled out. If the charger shorted the battery and the PTC failed to trip, the cell would not have exploded after it was removed from the charger.
> 
> Hookoo, can you test the charger with another battery (alkaline or nimh--no fires==good ) to verify that the electronics still work? If the charger electronics shorted out, the charger could have pushed power from the cell phone into the battery. This can be ruled out if the charger still works.




Just tried it with a fresh alkaline. It still works and did not get unreasonably warm. I have a L91 energizer. Maybe I should try that under a controlled environment? 

Could you explain what a PTC is please.


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## Warp (Jun 11, 2006)

hookoo said:


> Just tried it with a fresh alkaline. It still works and did not get unreasonably warm. I have a L91 energizer. Maybe I should try that under a controlled environment?


 
I'm no expert here, but I would hold off on trying that. What exactly do you mean by controlled environment?


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## enLIGHTenment (Jun 11, 2006)

hookoo said:


> Just tried it with a fresh alkaline. It still works and did not get unreasonably warm. I have a L91 energizer.



If it were me, I wouldn't risk it unless I had a way to set off the experiment from a distance--up wind--and all the equipment was fully contained inside an outdoor fireproof bunker. You really don't want a burning lithium cell to rocket away from the experiment and hit you in the face or start a wildfire.



> Could you explain what a PTC is please.



It's a safety device, somwhat like a circuit breaker, in lithium batteries that shuts off the current if the battery is overloaded, shorted, or overheated.


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## Silviron (Jun 11, 2006)

Geeze, I have a drawer full of Batery Station lithium 123s and 1.5V AAs, and have them in several flashlights and several other devices including digital cameras..... And I was _fixin' _to order another batch of 123s because I have a bunch of 4X123 lights on the way

All these bad occurences of late are on the verge of making me nervous.... I don't worry so much about stuff happening when I'm present; I can deal with that...(if it doesn't kill me right off)... but what about if I'm gone? I'd hate to run an errand and come back to a house burnt down and the whole forest on fire because of me.


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## Ray_of_Light (Jun 11, 2006)

The 1.5 V lithium have a potential problem, due to a combination of chemical composition, and lack of proper sealing.

- The Lithium - Iron disulfide battery has a "natural" voltage of 1.91 Volt, which is too high for any application requiring 1.5 Volt. In order to decrease the voltage of about 300 mV, a lithium iodine compound is added to the electrolyte.

This chemical addition makes the electrolyte more critical to compose properly. The most common problem with the 1.5 Volt Lithium is the slow voltage raise when left in storage for few monts.
A proper formulation for the 1.5 Volt lithium seems to be more "black art" rather than modern chemistry. 
This is because the most effective additives required to effectively decrease the voltage are the perchlorates, but they would transform the battery in a "pipe bomb", in the event of overheating or mechanical shock.
Unproper formulation of the electrolyte in 1.5 Volt lithium batteries, if done with safety in mind, usually bring a series of problems as voltage raise over time, temporary voltage sag when the load is applied, and parasitic reactions that will kill the battery, while in storage, after few months from production.

My educated guess for the exploded AA lithium battery is the following.
The battery has raised its voltage too much, and it was hydrated (i.e. contained water in the carbon-Fe2S mixture, the black powder) due to a defective crimp seal.
The high voltage voltage may have caused the DC-DC converter of the phone charger to draw more current, and that initiated the lithium-water reaction that is heat-generating and hydrogen generating. 
So, the flash point was reached and the battery exploded. At high temperatures, hydrogen can combine with FeS2 violently.

Just my tought

Anthony.

EDITED: I typed MnO2 instead of FeS2.


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## hookoo (Jun 11, 2006)

What is scary is, I was considering storing that same lithium battery in the device for traveling emergency's. What if the battery exploded on the plane this weekend? You would be seeing this on the news. There was nothing I could do once the thing became unstable. Just happened so fast. If It was left unattended, things woul've been much, much worse.


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## kromeke (Jun 11, 2006)

All this talk about battery mishaps has prompted me to do a little research. I brought home the "Handbook of Batteries" from work. This is a very good book, It is ISBN 0-07-037921-1, edited by David Linden (in case anyone wanted to know) This by no means makes me an authority. 

That said,
Lithium-Iron Disulfide cells do not contain manganese dioxide. Lithium batteries as a rule do not have aqueous (water based) electrolytes as lithium reacts with water. They all contain organic solvents as the elecrolyte. If moisture get into any lithium chemistry battery, then yes, you will have hydrogen form and it will be a undesirable event. This is one reason why one doesn't use water on lithium or lithium battery fires.

Unless someone can correct me here, Lithium batteries in normal use do not generate hydrogen gas as part of their reaction. I am specifically refering to Lithium-Thionyl chloride, Lithium-Iron Disulfide, and Lithium-Manganese Dioxide cells. Lithium Manganese dioxide is the chemistry used in the common 123 cell. it is 3v chemistry. Lithium-Iron Disulfide is the ~1.5v one we are discussing in this thead. Lithium-Thionyl chloride is the chemistry we use at my work, so that is why I've studied it.

Also, it appears that most electrolytes used in lithium chemistries are themselves flammable. 

I believe tha hydrogen gas that gets mentioned is due to the fact that Alkaline batteries do produce hydrogen in normal use. 

Now, metallic lithium (which is used in lithium primary batteries) will produce hydrogen upon contact with water (actually the hydrogen comes from the water as it contacts lithium, producing lithium oxide and hydrogen gas) 

I'm not a chemist, so I invite anyone with better knowledge to correct me and elaborate on lithium chemistries.

I'm sorry to hear about your incident Hookoo. I don't have any suggestions as to what happened.


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## Lunarmodule (Jun 11, 2006)

My GOD!! Most importantly I'm glad to hear your wife and you are intact if a bit rattled by this terrible incident, no injuries. I really hope you got changed the air in that room fast and didnt breathe any of that stuff any more than what was unavoidable. Also, *HANDLE EVERYTHING WITH RUBBER GLOVES. Wash hands, face, arms,. any exposed skin with lots of water. Plastic bag the battery remnants. Send it to Kevin at Battery Station. Throw the tshirt it landed on away. Dont try cleaning it, just toss it*.

I had a Battery Station CR123 pair explode on me last Thursday and I got really sick (poisoned) from the smoke and wet charred crud from the batteries, handling with bare hands and not washing up thoroughly. I didnt take the warnings seriously. You know warning labels, they all sound like the end of the world, they have to, to insure the manufacturers are covered. I never expected to be puking my guts out 12 hours after, which stayed for 2 days. Skin rash all over my whole body, blood test found liver enzymes off the charts, erratic heartbeat, burning sensation in my throat and on my tongue. In my case it was mostly hydrofluoric acid vapor that has a significant delayed onset. It takes a while for the flourine to break off the acid in the body and free radical fluorine attacks many delicate chemical conversion processes in the body. For a burn as little as 2 percent of body surface area, HF can be lethal, shutting down the heart and lungs long after ingestion, no warning, no picnic!

Thank God you had no direct injuries, I just hope you breathed an absolute minimum amount of the smoke and didnt handle the crud with bare hands. Basically, treat every surface or object the exploded battery touched like it was incredibly toxic, it does not hurt to go way overboard in this respect. Thats the most important thing I can offer you is that advice.

Oh, Kevin (Batterystation).... Now I really feel terrible for this fellow. He took my accident so personally, I sensed it was in a way worse for him than me, since he was flooded with remorse that his product was involved. Its every seller's nightmare to have a product that inadvertently brings harm to the buyer(s). I think of airline company employees that get the detestable job of informing family members of passengers in the event of a serious crash. I'll bet they wish more than anything they could "un-do" the tragedy so as not to traumatize the families. Thats far more serious in nature than whats tearing Kevin up. But maybe you see my point. Its way late and I'm dozing off in front of my computer. I slept in the afternoon so now its insomnia theatre. Im slappy tired now but I just found this thread and cannot believe the coincidence. I can NOT believe THIS. I wish it were any other brand of battery for Kev's sake. One of the big concluding themes from my "explosion thread" is that real scrutiny should be targeted at multi-cell arrangements and insuring balance of charge and age for those lights that use more than 1 cell is critical for safety. There were a lot of folks wondering about single cell safety. Even I was nodding my head at the notion of "a one cell light would not have done this....". Now this incident has opened up a commercial kitchen size can of worms. Another primary cell, albeit lithium chemistry, but the ever so trustworthy double A cell size. All those years of standard alkaline cell sizing.... in my mind a double A battery is as benign as it gets. Not anymore. 

I find this cell phone battery charger a bit wonky if you ask me. Your cell phone is very likely a LiIon battery, which is crucial to have a proper charging regimen with the right equipment. i.e. factory charger. sounds like a nifty idea. but id bet a zillion dollars if you wrote a letter to the manufacturer of the cell phone and asked if they would approve of the use of your AA charger gizmo to charge their phone, the response would be "NO WAY NO HOW NOT NOW NOT EVER we cannot recommend anything beyond what has been approved and tested for use with the product by us and Underwriters Laboratories". Since LiIon batteries are so inherently dangerous when improperly charged, companies have no choice but to pay a ton of money for safety checking and a lot of times use proprietary pack shapes and weirdo connectors specifically so that you cant use a Nokia cigarette lighter plug slash rapid charger to charge up your Motorola phone. It drove me crazy at first, why the flipflop cant everyone agree on one standard plug size, with a fixed number of terminals and use that connector type for every rechargeable device. Worst of all laptops. Nineteen point five volt power supply with bizarro connector so your Dell Inspiron can only be charged and run with your factory issue Dell Inspiron power brick. After getting over the aggravation of the lack of a common standard, I realized it was because of lithium battery liability concerns. OTOH, gasoline is extremely dangerous, why not have different gas filler hole shapes for different model cars? OK now I know im slap happy tired and barely making any more sense. SO Ill sign off here... wishing you well. Please contact Kevin at BS about this and save the battery, but BAG IT!!!





OMG, poor Kevin! I think he's going to check himself in to a hospital soon. This is going to give the poor fellow a heart attack with a huge stomach ulcer to follow. He's not getting any rest, as I envision him burning the midnight oil testing every cell in sight and running test to destruction experiments. When he hears of this.... my sympathies Kev!!


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## hookoo (Jun 11, 2006)

Hello LunarModule, thanks for the kind words of warning. Half the house was covered in smoke. Smoke detectors all went off near by the incident. The t-shirt and skirt went up in flames so those were safely disposed, ruined unfortunately. The carpet is the worse part as it melted. Better then a burned down house though ! After reading what happened to you I wish I were more cautious in the handling of the battery and clean-up. I am very sorry you got sick from the incident. Get well soon !

I don’t want to point blame to the battery. However, I do feel that the battery should not of exploded like it did regardless of the charger. I would be more apt to think that the charger itself would be damaged by the battery then the other way around. But, I really don’t know for sure.


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## kromeke (Jun 11, 2006)

Hookoo,
More info on PTC.

PTC stands for Positive Temperature Coeffecient. A PTC device is a form of resistor whose resistance changes with temperature. A resistor whose resistance changes greatly with temperature is usually called a thermistor. A PTC thermistor's resistance increases with temperature. As the temperature increases, the resistance gets much larger and this restricts the amount of current which flows through it. It is a simple safety device used on certain batteries.

Now, an aside, there are also NTC devices, but these are not used in batteries. They are Negitive Temperature Coeffecient. Their resistance decreases with an increase of temperature. I only mention this so one undestands exactly what the positive in PTC means. 

Hope this helps.


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## James S (Jun 11, 2006)

I think several things must go wrong to make something like this happen. The cell obviously did not vent as it was designed, but exploded. 

Does this charger thing crank down hard on the batteries? I have watched some devices of mine that are too tight and actually damage the battery top and potentially the venting and other stuff in there if you screw it all the way closed.

I've used a LOT of these batteries from batterystation and haven't had any problem with them, but my uses are all pretty low current as these things go. But then I think this charger is pretty low current draw too. Just too much current being pulled shouldn't cause it to explode like that!


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## David_Campen (Jun 11, 2006)

> I believe tha hydrogen gas that gets mentioned is due to the fact that Alkaline batteries do produce hydrogen in normal use.
> 
> Now, metallic lithium (which is used in lithium primary batteries) will produce hydrogen upon contact with water (actually the hydrogen comes from the water as it contacts lithium, producing lithium oxide and hydrogen gas)


Yeah, hydrogen gas is a problem with alkaline batteries but not with Li/MnO2 or Li/FeS2 batteries. I don't think that there was any hydrogen gas involved in causing the explosive venting events recently described with 123 and Li-AA cells.


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## David_Campen (Jun 11, 2006)

> I really hope you got changed the air in that room fast and didnt breathe any of that stuff any more than what was unavoidable. Also, HANDLE EVERYTHING WITH RUBBER GLOVES. Wash hands, face, arms,. any exposed skin with lots of water. Plastic bag the battery remnants. Send it to Kevin at Battery Station. Throw the tshirt it landed on away. Dont try cleaning it, just toss it.
> 
> I had a Battery Station CR123 pair explode on me last Thursday and I got really sick (poisoned) from the smoke and wet charred crud from the batteries, handling with bare hands and not washing up thoroughly. I didnt take the warnings seriously. You know warning labels, they all sound like the end of the world, they have to, to insure the manufacturers are covered. I never expected to be puking my guts out 12 hours after, which stayed for 2 days. Skin rash all over my whole body, blood test found liver enzymes off the charts, erratic heartbeat, burning sensation in my throat and on my tongue. In my case it was mostly hydrofluoric acid vapor that has a significant delayed onset. It takes a while for the flourine to break off the acid in the body and free radical fluorine attacks many delicate chemical conversion processes in the body. For a burn as little as 2 percent of body surface area, HF can be lethal, shutting down the heart and lungs long after ingestion, no warning, no picnic!


It is certainly good to take standard precautions such as using gloves but according to the Energizer Li-AA MSDS they do not contain any fluorides, if the same is true for the BatteryStation cells then HF exposure should not be a problem here.


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## carrot (Jun 11, 2006)

David_Campen said:


> It is certainly good to take standard precautions such as using gloves but according to the Energizer Li-AA MSDS they do not contain any fluorides, if the same is true for the BatteryStation cells then HF exposure should not be a problem here.


HF exposure may not be a problem but when handling any unknown chemical substances it is a prudent habit to take proper safety precautions. Besides, there are other by-products of catastrophic battery failure with Li-AA that, while not *as* dangerous as HF, are still bad for your health. Just don't take risks.


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## PhotonWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

Holy cow! Glad that everyone is ok. What a scary event!

I think you should report this to the Consumer Product Safety Commission at once. If the instructions indicate that such asn activity is OK, there could be many other explosions and/or fires happening.


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## [email protected] (Jun 11, 2006)

Jeepers - thank the stars you were there to put it out! Glad you are all okay.


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## sandworm (Jun 11, 2006)

I'm thinking I need to buy a couple more fire extinguishers..


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## enLIGHTenment (Jun 11, 2006)

Lithium fires require *Class D Type 2 powdered copper* extinguishers. Regular ABC extinguishers won't put out lithium; all they can do is put out whatever the lithium is burning on. If the lithium does not burn itself out before an ABC extinguisher is empty, you'll need another extinguisher (or more) to contain the flames.

If an appropriate extinguisher is not available, a lithium fire can be smothered with dry sand.

Do not use water on a lithium fire. It'll only make the problem worse.


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## hookoo (Jun 11, 2006)

enLIGHTenment said:


> Lithium fires require *Class D Type 2 powdered copper* extinguishers. Regular ABC extinguishers won't put out lithium; all they can do is put out whatever the lithium is burning on. If the lithium does not burn itself out before an ABC extinguisher is empty, you'll need another extinguisher (or more) to contain the flames.
> 
> If an appropriate extinguisher is not available, a lithium fire can be smothered with dry sand.
> 
> Do not use water on a lithium fire. It'll only make the problem worse.




I would agree with this to the experience I had trying to put the fire out. The fire went out but the lithium material was burning hot. All I could do is continue using the extinguiser to keep things from getting worse.


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## kromeke (Jun 11, 2006)

To add to the fire extinguisher bit:

If you have nothing else, and we are only talking about 1 or 2 lithium cells, I do believe that hosing it down with copious amounts of water would be better than nothing. Yes, the lithium will react with the water and may temporarly make things worse, but it will eventually react the few grams of lithium out and cool the reaction. Now, battling a case of lithium batteries which is on fire is a different story. Then I'd evacuate. 

I just wanted to say this as a last resort. if your extinguisher has been exhausted and you have nothing else handy. 

Of course, if things get bad, you should get everyone out of the residence and call the fire department. 

As usual, treat this as bad advice if you will, I will not claim responsibility if your house burns down because you tried to put out a lithium fire with water.

If you are regularly handling large amounts of lithium batteries, you should invest in a Class D extinguisher, preferably copper powder. I believe the sodium chloride based Class D will work, but not as well. A copper powder class D is on the order of $600, a sodium chloride based one is half that.


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## Handlobraesing (Jun 11, 2006)

Hire an attorney. 

http://www.turbocellcharge.com/main.html, click on FAQ

The FAQ from the charger's manufacturer explicitly states lithium battery is ok to use.


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## SemiMan (Jun 12, 2006)

Unless the turbocharger damages the battery on insertion, going after the charger manufacturer is going to be pretty pointless. The reality is that in the real world, accidents happen and batteries can be accidentally shorted out, especially primary batteries which are often thrown willy nilly into drawers and the like. Battery manufacturers take this very seriously. Hurting customers is very bad for business and if you are Sanyo, Panasonic, Duracell, Enegergizer, etc. the last thing you need is a front page story of your product burning down a house. To that end, these name brand companies are going to do their best to ensure their products are safe. They may not always get it right, but on average, they are going to be safer than a no-name factory in China that private labels. 

Somewhere in the middle is the "name-brand" Asian manufacturers such as GP and Konnoc. These companies tend to have large industrial accounts that would also not take favourably to catastrophic events, but not the public publicity of the consumer brands. It may be safer to pay a little more for one of these brands until Lithiums have been in the market long enough that all safety issues are resolved?

Semiman


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## dyyys1 (Jun 12, 2006)

While the fact that there have been two major battery explosions within days of one another is an incredible coincidence, we have to remember that it is just that: a coincidence. Considering the number of batteries used by the thousands of people who use CPF, there are very few accidents, explosions, or fires that occur. While these events are important to discuss in order to prevent them and to warn us to be careful with batteries, the risk you take in using these batteries is extremely low. 
We all take risks daily. These risks are part of life. Think of driving, for example. Driving is very dangerous. How about stairs? Stairs have the potential to be deadly if you fall. Some things that we wish to do are risky. Does that mean we should never do them? Absolutely not! In many daily activities, the reward is worth the risks. Some risks are low enough that I am willing to accept them. If I made a list of all the risks I take every day, using batteries would be near the bottom. 
I will say again that we should examine these stories to stay informed and prepared for the worst case scenario (the Boy Scout Motto is "Be Prepared") and to prevent their recurrence. However, this does not necessarily need to have a profound impact on the flashlights you are willing to use. These explosions we read about occur only in isolated, unique, hard-to-duplicate circumstances. Until a risk becomes greater than the reward, there is no reason to stop doing what you are doing. However, I understand if you are a safety freak (like my mother). If you are uncomfortable using a tool that is even slightly dangerous then don't use it. 
Always make yourself aware of the risks _and_ the rewards in whatever you do and make an intelligent choice based on the information you gather. Personally, I am going to be careful and treat these batteries with the respect they warrant, but I am still going to use them. I have a SFA2 coming in the mail, and I am very excited, not worried about batteries.


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## frisco (Jun 12, 2006)

dyyys1 said:


> While the fact that there have been two major battery explosions within days of one another is an incredible coincidence, we have to remember that it is just that: a coincidence. Considering the number of batteries used by the thousands of people who use CPF, there are very few accidents, explosions, or fires that occur. While these events are important to discuss in order to prevent them and to warn us to be careful with batteries, the risk you take in using these batteries is extremely low.
> We all take risks daily. These risks are part of life. Think of driving, for example. Driving is very dangerous. How about stairs? Stairs have the potential to be deadly if you fall. Some things that we wish to do are risky. Does that mean we should never do them? Absolutely not! In many daily activities, the reward is worth the risks. Some risks are low enough that I am willing to accept them. If I made a list of all the risks I take every day, using batteries would be near the bottom.
> I will say again that we should examine these stories to stay informed and prepared for the worst case scenario (the Boy Scout Motto is "Be Prepared") and to prevent their recurrence. However, this does not necessarily need to have a profound impact on the flashlights you are willing to use. These explosions we read about occur only in isolated, unique, hard-to-duplicate circumstances. Until a risk becomes greater than the reward, there is no reason to stop doing what you are doing. However, I understand if you are a safety freak (like my mother). If you are uncomfortable using a tool that is even slightly dangerous then don't use it.
> Always make yourself aware of the risks _and_ the rewards in whatever you do and make an intelligent choice based on the information you gather. Personally, I am going to be careful and treat these batteries with the respect they warrant, but I am still going to use them. I have a SFA2 coming in the mail, and I am very excited, not worried about batteries.




I agree with you for the most part.......

I just think of all the Lithium batteries in baby toys and such......

frisco


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## AlexGT (Jun 12, 2006)

You said you have 2 Lithium batteries right? Can you check for a batch number or expiration date on the other battery that you have? Is the batch number or expiration date visible on the damaged battery? 

Please post the numbers, Kevin from Batterystation is going to have a nervous breakdown when he sees this!

Can the manufacturer have changed something in a batch that is causing this weird explosions? 

AlexGT

Edit: I PM'ed and emailed Batterystation about this thread he probably will post when he reads it


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## James S (Jun 12, 2006)

it would be terrific if we could narrow this down to just 1 bad batch from the manufacturer. Unfortunately I'm holding a battery station cell here and it has no batch number or anything like that I can see... That might be something he can get the manufacturer to do.

If we knew that it was just a bad batch, they could be replaced and nobody need worry about the rest of them. The difference between a manufacturing problem and a defective product.

ALL manufacturers of lithium batteries have made a few mistake batches. Every computer manufacturer has had to recall some LiIon batteries due to defective cells in a batch. If we could discover if this is all that is, i'd be a much happier fellow. Time to add batch numbers to the cells!


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## batterystation (Jun 12, 2006)

Another UL approved product. Unreal. Well that project is still new enough that I don't have solid numbers to substantiate any track record or any known problem. Please send that device and battery to us. In the mean time, I can fix that one for sure. I tried all weekend to blow up a CR123A with no luck. I did see that my Sanyos are now made in China. That is new. I don't know what more to say about that AA other than I sure am glad nobody was hurt.

Over 20 years in the battery business, I have seen a lot of things like this but it is VERY upsetting when you have so much time, energy, pride, emotion, money, etc. in something that does this.

Please email me and send everything back for replacement. If not directly able to replace, I will do my best otherwise to reimburse. I requested can dates on these but not sure they did it. Under the label. The CR123A given the numbers has a great record and sells millions a year worldwide. This has not been around long enough. Easiest thing to do here is halt it.

I was just trying to give the bunny some competition. The bunny has also had some trouble with these. Anyone that would like may send the AAs back for refund or exchange.

I am VERY sorry......


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## dyyys1 (Jun 12, 2006)

frisco said:


> I agree with you for the most part.......
> 
> I just think of all the Lithium batteries in baby toys and such......
> 
> frisco



Ouch. That might be a different situation. I hadn't thought of that.


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## daloosh (Jun 12, 2006)

Wow, hookoo, glad you are OK, and your house is still standing. I agree that these two explosions are coincidences, but we are a small community and the penetration of lithium batteries goes way farther than CPF, so it gives some pause for concern.

I will, of course, continue to use all my lithiums batts, but I'm not going to put them into any appliance/toy/flashlight my daughter uses, because I'm not sure she would run away from smoke.

daloosh


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## hookoo (Jun 12, 2006)

The charger still seems to work fine. I will try to get some current readings tonight with nimh and an alkaline today. Maybe that could help solve what happened.


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## batterystation (Jun 12, 2006)

PhotonWrangler said:


> Holy cow! Glad that everyone is ok. What a scary event!
> 
> I think you should report this to the Consumer Product Safety Commission at once. If the instructions indicate that such asn activity is OK, there could be many other explosions and/or fires happening.



Even having passed UL approval and been in touch with the CPSC numerous times over the bunny battery and import issues, this battery project (L-AA) has been put on indefinite hold or scrapped. This one is still new enough that there is not enough of a track record like the CR123A that a gazillion different companies make. So it has been scrapped. Anyone that has these may send them back for exchange of something else or refund. I am NOT saying they are dangerous, but clearly there is something that even UL could not duplicate. Enough.


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## Handlobraesing (Jun 12, 2006)

Sure, there is a risk with everything, but here, this is definitely a fault in one or the other product.

1. Phone charger manufacturer stated specifically it can use a lithium AA in its FAQ.

2. Due to a fault in either the battery source or the battery powered appliace source, the battery exploded and caused property damage.

I have no idea which one's at fault, but one thing I know is that if what you described is true, you used the product normally, so either or both manufacturers should assume product liability for all cost of property damage. 

Someone posted Streamlight rep told him avoid "Made in China" batteries. I don't believe this is true. My opinion is that you should avoid buying batteries from a brand without a substantial existance in the country you are in. The company isn't exactly worried about "reputation" in consumer brand.

Big names, regardless of where the item is made, cares about their brand image. For example, even if Energizer ships L91 manufacturing to China, because the corporation is in the United States, should something go wrong, you can directly go after their American corporation for damage liability.

hookoo, if you try it again with a different brand lithium, this time, say on an open dirt field or in the sandbox with nothing flammable within the 30' perimeter, you should be alright even if something goes wrong.


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## TinderBox (UK) (Jun 18, 2006)

I see energizer is now selling a similar charger that comes with a lithium AA battery.

http://flashlightnews.org/story153.shtml

regards.


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## DownUnderLite (Jun 20, 2006)

Oh Dear!! Personally I'd stay away from any of these types of products. I'd wait a few years for the manufacturers to iron the bugs out.

How many times have we waited so eagerly for that long awaited product or software to be released only to find that it needs updating straight away. Or for that new model car to be released only to find it being recalled due to some safety issue. In the case of car manufacturers, they wait for a certain number of failures before recognising the problem. In the case of what we are involved with, we are talking about our houses, cars and personal health!
I feel that manufacturers release there products prematurely in a bid to capture market at the expense of extensive testing.

Forgot to add (too busy ranting, sorry about that! Chief) I was talking about the new device that can manage to draw 6V from a 1-2 V cell

My 2cents


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## Illum (Jun 20, 2006)

Im going to store my lithium batteries [by leaving space between battery] in a electrical tape lined stainless steel bin with an oversided plastic bag filled with sand on top from now on.:candle:

If one does decide to react, the flame will eat through the plastic bag and It shall extinguish itself..

Thanks for the idea, now to steal sand from the beach...:huh:


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## NewBie (Jun 25, 2006)

hookoo said:


> I had purchased a Turbo Charge cell phone charger about a week ago. http://www.turbocellcharge.com/
> Had no problems using with Nimh and Alkalines in this charger. It does get warm, but heard this was pretty normal. According to the products manual, lithiums are okay in this thing so I decided to give it a try. I put in a battery and connected to my phone. The battery capsule felt instantly very hot. Much more then in just normal operation. So, in under 20 seconds I quickly unscrewed the battery holder trying to avoid something much worse, and dumped out the battery on the table. It smelled of smoke and seemed to get even more unstable even out of the capsule. About 10 seconds later. A huge flame shoots out, and like a rocket it shot to the ceiling and bounced and started two small fires. one portion of the ( stuff inside ) landed on an cotton t-shirt by the laundry, that caught on fire. and the other on my wifes skirt. The battery itself melted my carpet. And a huge black stain remains. If it wasn't for the fire extinguisher, I don't think I would have a house. It was very hot and took the entire fire extinguisher to put out the fires.
> 
> What the heck happened?




Wow, amazing!

That must have been one heck of a boom!

If this happens again, be careful, byproducts from Lithium explosions/venting can be hazardous to your health. Try to use gloves or something. If you get cut or inhale the vapors, it is probably good to take an MSDS sheet with you, and seek medical attention.

One of our own CPF'ers had a rather bad medical experience recently, summarized in I think it was post #6:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1474397

So if I understand things right, this product uses Lithium AA batteries to recharge your cell phone?

Since it worked fine with Alkalines and NiMH, it is very interesting.


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## philpem (Jun 27, 2006)

Hmm, I've got a Ring CybaLite here that runs off a single CR123 (a Duracell Ultra "Made in USA" at the moment). This is slightly worrying, seeing as it's not just affecting Battery Station...

The speculation about stiff springs compressing the safety vent is interesting. If that is the cause (big if), then I doubt my CybaLite will have any issues - the spring is pretty weak.

I've actually built Li-ion chargers, so I know how fussy lithium-based battery chemistry can be. That's half the reason why I'm still using NiMH, even though I've got a cupboard full of 18650s. Oh, and from experience NiMHs don't tend to fail as violently. Makes it more fun to design a charger - less risk...


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## NewBie (Jul 12, 2006)

philpem said:


> Hmm, I've got a Ring CybaLite here that runs off a single CR123 (a Duracell Ultra "Made in USA" at the moment). This is slightly worrying, seeing as it's not just affecting Battery Station...
> 
> The speculation about stiff springs compressing the safety vent is interesting. If that is the cause (big if), then I doubt my CybaLite will have any issues - the spring is pretty weak.
> 
> I've actually built Li-ion chargers, so I know how fussy lithium-based battery chemistry can be. That's half the reason why I'm still using NiMH, even though I've got a cupboard full of 18650s. Oh, and from experience NiMHs don't tend to fail as violently. Makes it more fun to design a charger - less risk...




FYI, in my testing of Lithium 123 cells, the venting still occurs with very little spring force.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 22, 2007)

I was just reading this thread which was recently linked. I still have 8xAA of these BS LiFeS2 1.5V cells that have never been used. They now test with my Fluke 179 to range between *1.878V to 1.651V* and I'm not sure I should use these after reading this thread. They were all bought at the same time about 15 months ago. 

No point in overreacting, but any feedback on these cells and voltages?


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## koala (Jul 23, 2007)

I never bought any primary Lithium AA battery. Not today, not the future. Your story scares the hell out of me. I do use rechargeable bare cells but I didn't know Primary Lithium AA can be this violent. :sick2::duck:


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## half-watt (Jul 23, 2007)

enLIGHTenment said:


> ...If the charger shorted the battery and the PTC failed to trip, the cell would not have exploded after it was removed from the charger...



Why? Li is subject to thermal runaway - a thermal regenerative feedback of sorts, or at least analogous to it. So, why can't it start in the "charger" (so to speak, not a charger in the traditional sense) and then continue releasing more oxygen and feeding itself after it's out of the device until a critical level is achieved and then KABOOM! After some initial point, the Li-batt chemical just feeds itself without any outside influence - at least that's my current understanding of a portion of this process.

Is this scenario physically possible? Any thoughts anyone?


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 23, 2007)

koala said:


> I never bought any primary Lithium AA battery. Not today, not the future. Your story scares the hell out of me. I do use rechargeable bare cells but I didn't know Primary Lithium AA can be this violent. :sick2::duck:



That sounds like one vote for me to not use these.


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## Illum (Jul 23, 2007)

there isn't much info on L91 lithium cells and the possibility of an embedded PTC


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## DM51 (Jul 23, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> No point in overreacting, but any feedback on these cells and voltages?


The thread is a year old, so I suppose we would have heard if there had been more problems with them. Maybe BS could help with some info on that.


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## David_Campen (Jul 23, 2007)

Battery Station stopped selling their brand of Lithium AA cells a year ago.

I use lithium AA cells in series configuration of 2 and 4. I have not had any fire or explosive events with either BatteryStation or Energizer cells. I have had a couple of non-violent failures of the Battery Station cells - one split open lengthwise whille sitting in a headlamp battery compartment and another, also being used as a set of 4 in a headlamp, went to zero volts prematurely while the other 3 in the set still each had over 1 watt-hour of power remaining.


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## ltiu (Jul 23, 2007)

hookoo said:


> I had purchased a Turbo Charge cell phone charger about a week ago. http://www.turbocellcharge.com/



Looks like this product does that too. Only it recommends L91 lithiums, 2 at the same time to charge a cell phone:

http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=12964

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000JD39X8/?tag=cpf0b6-20


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## ltiu (Jul 23, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I was just reading this thread which was recently linked. I still have 8xAA of these BS LiFeS2 1.5V cells that have never been used. They now test with my Fluke 179 to range between *1.878V to 1.651V* and I'm not sure I should use these after reading this thread. They were all bought at the same time about 15 months ago.
> 
> No point in overreacting, but any feedback on these cells and voltages?



It's like winning the lottery. Since someone else won, you probably did not win and won't win ever. I would still use those lithiums. Give em to me if you plan on throwing them out.


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## knot (Jul 23, 2007)

Silviron said:


> I'd hate to run an errand and come back to a house burnt down and the whole forest on fire because of me.




You call this a forest?


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## ltiu (Jul 23, 2007)

Just curious. I know a typical AA has about 2700 to 3000 mAh.

How much capacity does a typical cell phone battery have? Just curious how many AAs does it take to charge a cell phone batteries or how many cell batteries can a single AA charge.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 24, 2007)

OK, they are disposed of.


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## thunderlight (Jul 24, 2007)

Should have known better:

Had standard Energizer llithium batteries in a UK 2xAAA Eled that became extremely hot over a 3 hour period during which I had the flashlight in my pocket. Probably would have exploded/vented whatever if I hadn't noticed how hot the flashlight became. I then noted that this particular flashlight had a flaky switch. The flashlight may have been running at extremely low drain even though it was off. I have another model that has a better switch, but I am not about to experiment again with these batteries in this model. 

Note that I knew that the switch was somewhat flaky beforehand and should have thought about the consequences, so this is largely my fault. However, you should make sure the switching mechanism has a high degree of integrity, especially with an older model, before using lithiums in series. [Since someone might ask this question, the lithium batteries did not have any effect on the switch. That is, it was as flaky before and after.]


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## Hans (Jul 25, 2007)

thunderlight said:


> Had standard Energizer llithium batteries in a UK 2xAAA Eled that became extremely hot over a 3 hour period during which I had the flashlight in my pocket. Probably would have exploded/vented whatever if I hadn't noticed how hot the flashlight became. I then noted that this particular flashlight had a flaky switch.



I had a similar problem with the UK 2AAA eLED, but mine was running on alkalines. When I noticed something was wrong the light was already so hot that the plastic around the bezel had somewhat deformed. Quite an interesting experience as the light was in one of my front pockets at the time and thus in a place where you definitely don't want to have a *hot* light.

My explanation was that I hadn't locked out the light properly, so pressure on the bezel somehow caused a short.

Hans


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## half-watt (Jul 26, 2007)

Hans said:


> I had a similar problem with the UK 2AAA eLED, but mine was running on alkalines. When I noticed something was wrong the light was already so hot that the plastic around the bezel had somewhat deformed. Quite an interesting experience as the light was in one of my front pockets at the time and thus in a place where you definitely don't want to have a *hot* light.
> 
> My explanation was that I hadn't locked out the light properly, so pressure on the bezel somehow caused a short.
> 
> Hans




i'm thinkin' more FRESH batts (it runs cooler as the batts run down), and just being insulated in your pocket for ~3hrs. however, the plastic deforming, i would have thought that you'd be hollerin' long before that, unless there was even more insulation between you and the eLED.


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## NA8 (Jul 26, 2007)

From their FAQ: 

"...The unit is primarily intended to provide instant power for a cell phone. It is recommended as a battery extender. If your phone is on the last bar of battery power and you will be placing a call you should plug the unit into the phone and make your call while the unit is plugged in. During the call the unit will provide the power necessary to make the call without further depleting your battery. Using it in this manner will provide the power needed to make all the calls until you can charge your phone with your home charger or car charger...."

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that this is exactly the wrong way to use lithium cells. Isn't this exactly the same as mixing old and new lithium cells or "mis-matched" lithium cells ? The "new" cell trying to charge up the "old" cell is exactly what they say is the problem with these things. This is precisely the situation they tell you to avoid if you don't want a KABOOM. If I've got this wrong, please steer me in the right direction 

edit: I hear kaboom is frowned upon, the preferred phrase is: "Rapid disassembly accompanied by flame."


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## half-watt (Jul 26, 2007)

NA8 said:


> From their FAQ:
> 
> "...The unit is primarily intended to provide instant power for a cell phone. It is recommended as a battery extender. If your phone is on the last bar of battery power and you will be placing a call you should plug the unit into the phone and make your call while the unit is plugged in. During the call the unit will provide the power necessary to make the call without further depleting your battery. Using it in this manner will provide the power needed to make all the calls until you can charge your phone with your home charger or car charger...."
> 
> ...



interesting point. i'm not sure that it really works that way though.

first, an excerpt from the source you quoted: 

"During the call the unit will provide the power necessary to make the call without further depleting your battery. Using it in this manner will provide the power needed to make all the calls until you can charge your phone with your home charger or car charger...."

notice that, according to the quote, 

"the unit provices power...to make the call", and further "you can charge your phone with your home charger or car charger"


NOTHING is mentioned of charging the battery with the unit in that quote. Maybe it does; maybe it doesn't. Don't want to make any assumption here from lack of evidence. The only thing we can conclude, assuming that the statements as stated are accurate, is that the unit can power the phone to make the call without resulting in further battery depletion, and that you can use your home or car charger(s) to recharge your battery. Any other conclusions might be deemed non sequiters, IMO.

Now, however, let's assume, for the moment that a unit can be used to recharge the phone's battery.

Would the unit be directly charging the battery? Or, would the unit be powering some electronics in the phone which isolate the unit from the battery directly and which in turn then charge the battery (meaning, the electronics in the phone then directly charge the battery)?

don't know, but that's how it might work *IF* the unit has any ability to charge the phone's battery. just a thought.


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## pfwag (Jul 26, 2007)

A little history: Some 21 years ago I worked at the Naval Ocean Systems Center in Hawaii. They did lots of things with marine mammals and needed underwater transponders, pingers and other sort of electronics that needed lots of battery power to operate underwater electronics for a long time. One of our favorite batteries was the GTE double D lithium. If I remember correctly, it was 3.6VDC and 15AHR. Of course they needed to find out what happened to a battery if an under water container leaked and filled with ocean water. The guy I worked with ran tests on shorting out the batteries under various conditions. The bottom line was that the battery could be made to explode with the power equivalent to 2/3 stick of dynamite. I didn't see the actual experiments but saw the movies of the results. Big bang! It was after that that the MFRs started changing the chemistry to reduce the output power and internal heating.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 26, 2007)

pfwag said:


> A little history: Some 21 years ago I worked at the Naval Ocean Systems Center in Hawaii. They did lots of things with marine mammals and needed underwater transponders, pingers and other sort of electronics that needed lots of battery power to operate underwater electronics for a long time. One of our favorite batteries was the GTE double D lithium. If I remember correctly, it was 3.6VDC and 15AHR. Of course they needed to find out what happened to a battery if an under water container leaked and filled with ocean water. The guy I worked with ran tests on shorting out the batteries under various conditions. The bottom line was that the battery could be made to *explode with the power equivalent to 2/3 stick of dynamite.* I didn't see the actual experiments but saw the movies of the results. Big bang! It was after that that the MFRs started changing the chemistry to reduce the output power and internal heating.



And may Flipper rest in peace. 

PS) Welcome to CPF !!!


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## scott1981 (Nov 13, 2008)

When Lithium reacts with water this is the reaction taking place:

2Li + 2H2O ----> 2LiOH + H2

LiOH is somewhat caustic, and H2 is flammable. Besides the organic electrolyte is also toxic and causes skin irritation as it can act as an acid (tyonil chloride)


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