# RediLast 2900, AW 2600, AW 2900 Battery Unwrapping (w/ trustfire 2400 - post 50)



## csshih (Sep 23, 2010)

I bought a couple redilast batteries to check out...

.. but since there have been a few people asking... :devil:

Here we are, some quick unwrapping pics of the RediLast 2900 Panasonic 18650!






Shiny labels look good in person, but are really hard to take pictures of! There is a bare panasonic 2900mAh cell on top. note the length.





the first step is removing the extra shiny label.





a small incision is made to the battery with knife of choice (a spyderco in my case)





said incision is expanded. cell look familiar?










removing the outer layer.





kapton tape -- not very necessary since the panasonic wrap is pretty thick, but an additional layer of protection is always good.





the "button top" is actually welded to the top cap by a tab. interesting.
lights without button tops might not make good contact in lights with multiple batteries, or won't make contact on lights with physical reverse polarity protection.





another view





now for a look at the protection IC





Disconnect the protection IC from + .. this isn't a shorting test 





remove rubber shock ring from bottom of cell





protection IC is revealed.. one of the more organized pcbs I've encountered.





compared to a stock bare cell.. identical!

:wave:

alright! time for the 2600 mAh cell!!






here's your standard, if not a bit beat up, aw 2600mAh cell.





label removal, as usual





cover your eyes! it's showing some skin! :duh2:





the shock protection / spacer for the IC is made of plastic.. not rubber, hm...











my hands are *not* photogenic!

I cannot identify this cell from the markings on it. H78A 5AG11 <- perhaps that is a date code.
the other side of the cell has A5D9.. or similar.. the ink is smeared.

keeping the ball rolling, a brand spankin' new 2900 mAh cell next!





the usual cell lineup





label removed





comparing tops of the AW and redilast -- the aw top does not protrude.





comparing bottoms. the aw has 3 protruding points, while the redilast is gold colored -- perhaps plated.





oops -- not so precision opening 





showing the tab to the protection IC





shrink wrap taken off -- bare cell underneath! makes for a skinnier cell I assume.

ah yes, the cell is labeled - 84A 94C 228





this kind of design scares me a bit more -- a tiny bit of kapton tape to prevent shorting!





tape and tabs ripped off -- shock protection is a plastic ring. -- perhaps less shock resistant?





comparison of the tops -- they appear identical, so I believe they are real.

and finally, close up pictures of the PCBs

first, the redilast





now, all 3 at once as I managed to capture most of the details!


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## zer0ne (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

Thanks for the pics. How about AW ones?


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## csshih (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

OooOo... don't have any of those.. I bought from redilast because he was relatively close (in cali) and had japanese protection ICs.. they look nice


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

Oh good you saved me a cell! I'm so glad to see this, since I was just about to do the same with a spare while currently running CBA-II discharge tests. Great detailed photos too!. Any closeup details on the PCB & components? Thanks for the expose. I consider this as good news to confirm as stated that it is the exact quality cell as being used by AW and elsewhere. Quality is quality.

lovecpf


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## zer0ne (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

If you look closer to the panny cell in the negative end, there is expose of the bare metal and thus kapton tape is necessary.


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## csshih (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

thank you for pointing it out! 

trying to take macro shots now... which is hard as I don't have the cheapo zoom/macro lens at my dorm.


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## don.gwapo (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

Your such a tease unwrapping the cell. Anyway, thanks for the detailed unwrapping/review. Might getting them later.


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## amigafan2003 (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

Thanks for doing this cssih - nice to see the quality of the build. 

Some have suggested that the cells might have been reclaimed cells (based on nothing more than apparent aversion to a new company entering the marketplace) - the abscence of solder tab marks confirms this.

It's also nice to see the button top soldered as well - others have suggested button tops could move about and affect the integrity of the cell.

I've been very happy with my Redilast 18650 2900mah cells which have already been through some pretty demanding use and perform idetically to my plain Pany NCR's but with the added safety net of the protection circuit - which I might add has tripped reliably @ 2.5v on the two occasions I've let them get down that far.


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## VidPro (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

:goodjob:Sweet:kewlpics:


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## QtrHorse (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

Thank you for doing this.

Any chance you will do the same for the new AW 2900 cells?

I am curious to see if there is a difference in the protection install and if there is any noticeable difference in the actual protection circuit board, shock ring and etc...


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## Phaserburn (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*



QtrHorse said:


> Thank you for doing this.
> 
> Any chance you will do the same for the new AW 2900 cells?
> 
> I am curious to see if there is a difference in the protection install and if there is any noticeable difference in the actual protection circuit board, shock ring and etc...


 
Ditto! This would be the true "tail of the tape" between the trusted AW brand and these new cells. So far, I like my new Redi 2900s.

All of CPF will be watching!


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## amigafan2003 (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

cssih - do you have a paypal account I could make a donation to to enable you to purchase an AW 2900mah cell for dissection?


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## don.gwapo (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*



amigafan2003 said:


> cssih - do you have a paypal account I could make a donation to to enable you to purchase an AW 2900mah cell for dissection?


 
Now that's the spirit. :thumbsup:.


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## PapaLumen (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

So i understand the AW2900 also uses this panny cell but what about the AW 2600 and 2200mah, which cells do those use?


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## etc (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

Cool. Thanks for pics. 
I plan to buy 6 of these cells.


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## csshih (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*



amigafan2003 said:


> cssih - do you have a paypal account I could make a donation to to enable you to purchase an AW 2900mah cell for dissection?



:thinking: anyone in the states that happens to have a cell to spare? that'd be faster, and cheaper than getting a single cell shipped from china!



PapaLumen said:


> So i understand the AW2900 also uses this panny cell but what about the AW 2600 and 2200mah, which cells do those use?



hrm.. I have a 2600 on hand.. but not a 2200..I have 30 minutes before class.. time to pop 'er open!

oh, and pcb shots are on hold until I get a better pic.


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## csshih (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

2600 unwrapping movedddd up!


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## csshih (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

3rd' post frenzy!

here's a protection circuit 

3 MOSFETS and 1 IC 





aha! the MOSFET is a Alpha and Omega chip.
http://www.aosmd.com/pdfs/marking/AO8822.pdf


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## Caroso (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

This was in my AW 2600 :duh2:
(joke)


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## bshanahan14rulz (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*



LuxLuthor said:


> Oh good you saved me a cell! I'm so glad to see this, since I was just about to do the same with a spare while currently running CBA-II discharge tests. Great detailed photos too!. Any closeup details on the PCB & components? Thanks for the expose. I consider this as good news to confirm as stated that it is the exact quality cell as being used by AW and elsewhere. Quality is quality.
> 
> lovecpf



Can't wait to see the CBA results!
I'm also very happy to see the RediLast unwrapped.

who is Caroso?


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## wacbzz (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*



Caroso said:


> This was in my AW 2600 :duh2:


 
Really? 

Or am I just the first sucker? :ironic:


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## PapaLumen (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

Wow thanks CSSHIH. I didnt expect you to sacrifice a cell! So no idea what they are then... damn lol.

Caroso i do hope you're kidding.


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## Caroso (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

Yes, i was kidding
My battery looked just like the battery csshih unwrapped.


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## csshih (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

LOL Caroso..  quit making me laugh in sociology class!

Now that I'm toning down on the lights (no space in college!) , I find I have a few extra li-ion cells.... and odd numbers are sacrifice-able.


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## amigafan2003 (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*



> I cannot identify this cell from the markings on it. H78A 5AG11 <- perhaps that is a date code.


I have Samsung battery that has H78A on it. Interestingly it was recovered from a Trustfire 2500mah cell that the protection circuit died on................



> Yes, i was kidding
> My battery looked just like the battery csshih unwrapped.


What battert? The 2600mah or 2900mah?

Plus, I think you should edit your post to make it clear it was a joke - that image could do some serious harm to the good reputation (hard earned reputation) of a well respected seller.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*



csshih said:


> 3rd' post frenzy!
> 
> here's a protection circuit
> 
> ...



Beautiful, and pretty damn good photo for not having a macro lens!!! That insulator on AW's looks like the ones I took apart earlier. I'm comparing the discharges between AW & Redi, and using the Pila IBC charger (vs. one of my hobby chargers), figuring that is representative of how most people would be charging these cells.


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## csshih (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*



LuxLuthor said:


> Beautiful, and pretty damn good photo for not having a macro lens!!! That insulator on AW's looks like the ones I took apart earlier. I'm comparing the discharges between AW & Redi, and using the Pila IBC charger (vs. one of my hobby chargers), figuring that is representative of how most people would be charging these cells.



thanks! that took quite a few tries, and a couple angles to get the imprinting to show up well. I believe those 2 discharge graphs will be almost identical.. except for the ending voltage?


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## Burgess (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

Hi Craig -- 


Good Work !


Great Photos !


Thank you for doing this !



Now, get yer' *** to Class ! ! !



_


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## jhc37013 (Sep 24, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

So how about head to head runtimes will they be the same, they use the same battery correct?


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## csshih (Sep 24, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*



Burgess said:


> Now, get yer' *** to Class ! ! !



thanks, thanks, thanks, no thanks! :nana:



jhc37013 said:


> So how about head to head runtimes will they be the same, they use the same battery correct?


theoretically, yes, but it depends on who's protection circuit actually cuts off at 2.5V (if either of them do!  )


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## zer0ne (Sep 24, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

the pcb for redilast and aw looks identical in layout


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## csshih (Sep 24, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

perhaps, but there's an additional MOSFET on the redilast.


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## Justin Case (Sep 24, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

The 3 MOSFETs on the Redilast is strange. The protection IC looks like a Seiko S-8261, which has only two FET gate control pins. Except for the extra MOSFET, the Redilast protection circuit looks like the example protection circuit shown in the Seiko datasheet.


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## ptolemy (Sep 25, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

pretty awesome post


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## FroggyTaco (Sep 25, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

Craig wanna trade a redilast for a AW 2900? I will bring some to San Jose today if you get this in time.

Travis


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## tre (Sep 26, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

Thanks for this. Excellent contribution.


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## koala (Sep 26, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

The three mosfets in Redilast are wired in parallel, reduces on resistance and increase continuous current capabilities, that is if the cell could handle it.


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## csshih (Sep 27, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

alright I got my hands on a AW cell.. unwrapping to come later this evening!


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## Justin Case (Sep 27, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

If all three MOSFETs are wired in parallel, then are you suggesting that they are also all connected to just one of the gate control pins? If that's the case, then you either have protection only for charge or only for discharge, but not both.


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## radellaf (Sep 27, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

The AO8822 are dual MOSFETs, so it looks from the PCB photo like the pin 4 gates are all hooked together and go to one pin on the controller, and the pin 5 gates all go to the second control pin. A bit hard to tell for sure.


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## Justin Case (Sep 27, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

So why do you need three AO8822s then?


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## radellaf (Sep 28, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

Rds(on) is about 24 milliohms per transistor, and there are two in series. so with three I guess you get 16 instead of 48. At 3 amps, that's 114mW instead of 432mW. About 1/3W less heat. Also, 48mV drop across the circuit vs. 114mV.


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## zer0ne (Sep 28, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*



csshih said:


> perhaps, but there's an additional MOSFET on the redilast.


My bad, I thought the macro shot was for the AW.


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## koala (Sep 28, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

I like radellaf's idea. Parallel mosfets reduces on resistance which also means less energy being wasted in to heat, therefore you get longer runtime especially during high discharge current. 

This means RediLast will have better high discharge performance compared to a single mosfet design. Assuming that the single mosfet design uses the same parts.

It seems that the protection IC is a G2JT series. It has a over-charge detection voltage of 4.325v, over-discharge protection voltage of 2.5v


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## radellaf (Sep 28, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

Well, hardly my idea... but looks like a good idea here with no room for a larger FET (I assume), and board space to spare. Would like to know what transistors AW is using. Even if the same, 2 much better than 1.
I'm still not sure about protection, as that metal strip makes me more nervous than my possible carelessness. If you check voltages manually and don't leave overnight, I guess most dangerous thing would be a charger that shorts out and applies, at worst, line voltage across the cell. Does that ever happen? Any more often than these protection circuits fail shorted?

Seems that metal strip should be a lot smaller/thinner, so it would just melt like a fuse if it shorted against the cell casing.

IDK, hard to justify any risk just to have longer-than-IMR runtime in my MG P-Rocket. 15 min full brightness is plenty of "oh wow!" time.


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## csshih (Sep 29, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

thread update


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## radellaf (Sep 29, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*

The data sheets don't really give precise info to say if AW's 2 transistors would have more resistance than Redilast's 3. Shouldn't be much change in RDS from 3A to 6A.
In any case the difference would be (20/2 vs 21/3) a mere 3mΩ, which is well within the "noise" of individual component variation.

I like the metal plate (vs just PCB) negative contact in the AW. I like the extra insulation on the cell can in the Redilast. It would add diameter, but they are said to fit in my only 18650 light (MG P-Rocket). Soldering looks nicer on the Redilast. AW's PCB protection shock-ring has a good reputation, though, no experience with the other.

Thanks for sacrificing the cells - great to see what's under the wrapper. I'd love to see how much worse the Trustfire Red & Blacks are put together, but the nice panasonic cell in these is reason enough to get them.

---
Just for reference, diameter data on other cells:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/257543
---
Transistor Data:

(AW) A1870
RDS(on)1 = 16.0 mΩ TYP. (VGS = 4.5 V, ID = 3.0 A)
RDS(on)2 = 16.5 mΩ TYP. (VGS = 4.0 V, ID = 3.0 A)
RDS(on)3 = 20.0 mΩ TYP. (VGS = 2.5 V, ID = 3.0 A)

(Redilast) AO8822:
RDS(ON) = 17mΩ (at VGS = 4.5V ID = 6.6A)
RDS(ON) = 18mΩ (at VGS = 3.6V ID = 6A)
RDS(ON) = 21mΩ (at VGS = 2.5V ID = 5.5A)


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## csshih (Sep 29, 2010)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*



radellaf said:


> Thanks for sacrificing the cells - great to see what's under the wrapper. I'd love to see how much worse the Trustfire Red & Blacks are put together, but the nice panasonic cell in these is reason enough to get them.



thank you for the data, though I admit most of it is going in one ear, out the other.

hrm.. tempting.. but do I really need another cell I can't use? 
the ones without a wrapper underneath are I can't really use as I don't have access to heatshrink to make new wrappers..

also, even if they had wrappers underneath, I'm not as keen on using unprotected cells from the "budget" manufacturers! 

(question answered, thanks!)


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## PapaLumen (Sep 29, 2010)

*Re: RediLast 2900, AW 2600, AW 2900 Battery Unwrapping*

Ive got a non-working black n red trustfire here, ill tear it apart and post pics if i get a chance later.


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## PapaLumen (Oct 1, 2010)

*Re: RediLast 2900, AW 2600, AW 2900 Battery Unwrapping*

As promised - Trustfire "True" 2400mah 18650 unwrapped.





































The only markings on it seem to read - A7G with a C underneath.
The protector ring is cardboard type material.

Maybe you can add it to the thread title too.


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## radellaf (Oct 1, 2010)

*Re: RediLast 2900, AW 2600, AW 2900 Battery Unwrapping*

Thanks. PCB looks just as nicely done. So, about the only difference is cardboard instead of plastic. They all use that wide strip for the voltage sense connection. They're all surprisingly similar.


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## tre (Oct 1, 2010)

*Re: RediLast 2900, AW 2600, AW 2900 Battery Unwrapping*

All three look like they are dangerously close to shorting (which would bypass the protection circuit) but the trustfire looks like the worst. I don't like how the metal strip runs from the positive side of the battery to the protection circuit. The strip connects from the positive side of the 18650 to the protection circuit with a solder joint that looks to have about 1mm clearance (if that) to the negative side of the battery. At least Redilast and AW seem to have a little white foam disk between the negative part of the battery and the protection circuit to prevent shorting. The Trustfire only has a little square of tape which does not cover even 50% of the negative battery surface.

What is on the bottom of all the protection circuits? The bottom of the protection circuit is actually used as the negative battery contact surface in a light so I assume there must be something between the bottom of the circuit and the "metal disk" used for negative contact to prevent shoring? The pictures show what is between the top of the circuits and the battery but I don't see what is between the bottom of the circuit and the negative contact (unless I'm missing it or perhaps it is not removable). In other words, the bottom of a circuit board usually has solder joints but we don't see that so I assume there is something over the bottom of the circuit board.


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## zer0ne (Oct 1, 2010)

*Re: RediLast 2900, AW 2600, AW 2900 Battery Unwrapping*

I think AW has the most layers of protection in the negative end. A red gasket, round rubber like (?) that cover entire pcb and the kapton tape cover the entire length of the negative strip.


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## csshih (Oct 1, 2010)

*Re: RediLast 2900, AW 2600, AW 2900 Battery Unwrapping*



tre said:


> What is on the bottom of all the protection circuits? The bottom of the protection circuit is actually used as the negative battery contact surface in a light so I assume there must be something between the bottom of the circuit and the "metal disk" used for negative contact to prevent shoring? The pictures show what is between the top of the circuits and the battery but I don't see what is between the bottom of the circuit and the negative contact (unless I'm missing it or perhaps it is not removable). In other words, the bottom of a circuit board usually has solder joints but we don't see that so I assume there is something over the bottom of the circuit board.



I'm not sure how the metal discs are kept in place - I can't pry the plates from the PCBs.

the piece covering the PCB is a little plastic disc on the AW, and a sticker material on the RediLast. AW wins here. :huh:


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## PapaLumen (Oct 3, 2010)

*Re: RediLast 2900, AW 2600, AW 2900 Battery Unwrapping (w/ trustfire 2600 - post 50)*

Thats Trustfire 2400 not 2600 btw (thread title)


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## hazna (Oct 23, 2010)

nice informative pictures! 

I'd be interested in seeing whats under a redilast 2600 and wow 2600. Let me know if I can contribute a donation to the testing!


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## Black Rose (Oct 24, 2010)

*Re: RediLast 2900, AW 2600, AW 2900 Battery Unwrapping*



PapaLumen said:


> As promised - Trustfire "True" 2400mah 18650 unwrapped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How strong is the cardboard type material?

Do you feel it would it crush easily if the cell was dropped?


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## PapaLumen (Oct 24, 2010)

Its stronger than it looks. But yes, i would be concerned dropping it on a hard surface. Tbh, I think i would be concerned dropping any of them..


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## radellaf (Oct 26, 2010)

What makes no sense to me is that none use a piece of magnet wire (30AWG or smaller) instead of a strip. It's just a voltage sense line so current should be <1mA and a very fine wire would work, and instantly burn open if it did short out.


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## tre (Oct 26, 2010)

radellaf said:


> What makes no sense to me is that none use a piece of magnet wire (30AWG or smaller) instead of a strip. It's just a voltage sense line so current should be <1mA and a very fine wire would work, and instantly burn open if it did short out.


 
This is a great idea. The only negative I can think of is that the battery would then be unprotected and the user may not know. Of course to me that is batter than the alternative.

Looking at these pictures has made me re-think using protected 18650 at all. I know how to use them and I'm thinking I would feel safer with unprotected batteries. It looks to me like the protecting causing a massive short is a higher risk than an unprotected battery. I never run the voltage too low, I always check my charger, I always check the voltage of my batteries before and after use, and I will only use LiMn batteries in series (I only use LiCo in single cell lights). Anybody else have any thoughts on what clearly is a risky way to "protect" the battery? I wonder if the risk of the protection circuit shorting is greater then the risk of an unprotected battery in the hands of people with some LiCo knowledge. I know if I ever drop a protected battery, it is going in the trash.


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## radellaf (Oct 26, 2010)

If that strip lost contact then I presume the circuit would react as if the battery were at 0v, and disable it. 

Has anyone had one of these fail because of a short in the sense connection?

It looks bad, but for all I know, in practice, the strip might burn open just fine given how much current these cells can put out. All the failures I've read about are dead (open or just not protecting) protection boards, dead cells, or catastrophic failure on charge or discharge. Don't recall reading about a short that wasn't internal to the cell, and that only with a Chinese 123, LiFeS AA, and probably the Sony/Dell/Apple recall. Tho, who knows how many dead *fire cells are because of internal shorts that didn't cause venting.


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## SikDMAX (Jan 24, 2012)

Bringing this back up... thanks for doing this! 

Its been a while since the last post - I take it RediLast is still producing reputable batteries?


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## LEDite (Jan 27, 2012)

*Re: RediLast Battery Unwrapping*



radellaf said:


> I'm still not sure about protection, as that metal strip makes me more nervous than my possible carelessness. If you check voltages manually and don't leave overnight, I guess most dangerous thing would be a charger that shorts out and applies, at worst, line voltage across the cell. Does that ever happen? Any more often than these protection circuits fail shorted?
> 
> Seems that metal strip should be a lot smaller/thinner, so it would just melt like a fuse if it shorted against the cell casing.



I agree, I don't like any metal strips between to poles of the cell.

The protection circuit just seems to add circuit complexity and external wiring.

I am using only 4.35 VDC unprotected cells (Sanyo 3000mah).

I have used hundreds of 18650 cells in lights and RC vehicles,

without seeing even one cell vent.

LEDite


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