# 60W LED Multi-Chip and RGB driver with memory - how to keep memory (wiring question)



## JohnnyAirtime (Sep 10, 2012)

:wave: Okay folks... Not sure where to turn to at this moment (I'm stuck, and need some help!!)... however, I am working this from two angles as I also have the China manufacturer (of my LED pendant lighting) trying to figure this out too.

Here's what I have;
I'm using a dual 60W LED multi-chip pendant lighting. Or, "high bay" pendant light with two 60W LED chips. This light, is using an RGB driver (one per multi-chip) that has a remote control to adjust the LED. It can do several things to mix the color output, as well as strobe, flash, dimming, etc of the chip. Very nice to have, however those "features" of the driver/remote control are causing me a problem.

How it's wired currently;
I'm using an electronic timer, that shuts the driver off during certain hours of the day. The timer is pretty simple, as it connects to 110V and has 2 circuits of output. Meaning, it will turn on/off 2 different output circuits. Here's a sample of how the timer is wired to the LED light (L being "live" and N being "neutral". 3-4 and 5-6 are timer circuits on/off).






The problem.
With the light powered on, I set the light to a specific setting (using the remote control). When the driver loses power, and shuts off via the timer... I also lose my memory settings on the LED driver. This means, when the timer again turns on the light (provides power back to the driver), the light will turn on with a default setting. This setting, just happens to be a "flash" pattern, and not the setting I set with the remote before it turned off. It tells me, there is no "non volatile memory" on the LED driver.

Making sense ?? 

What my specific problem is... I need the driver to retain memory when it is turned off, via the timer.

Still working with the China manufacturer, I'm asking them to tell me how much power is it going to take to retain memory (only). As I just want that little bit... and not enough to turn the driver back on, or light the 60W multi-chip LED until the electronic timer says "on" with full 110V power.

My thought, is to use some kind of resistor (not sure what term I should be using here), between the two leads as shown in this figure;





ANYONE have any ideas on what I should be asking the manufacturer, or what I should be using to make this work?? Am I on the right path?? Anything you can assist with to HELP me... would be greatly appreciated!! :thumbsup:


----------



## SemiMan (Sep 10, 2012)

I guess this is not the time to suggest a more featured RGB driver?

1) Can the driver be run without damage with the load disconnected? The answer is probably yes.

2) How much storage caps are on the output of the driver and will connecting an LED string to a driver that was open-circuit cause damage?

3) What is the minimum number of LED the driver can drive (as this will determine if your resistor idea will work).


Can you forward a link/data sheet for the driver?


----------



## Gunner12 (Sep 10, 2012)

If you have contacts at the place that makes the driver, perhaps you can ask them to make you a driver with memory? From the sounds of it, the microcontroller of the driver saves the mode of the light on ram, which is naturally erased on power off (as you figured out).

If the setting is saved onto flash instead of ram, then it'll stay between power cycles. If the driver can be programmed after the microcontroller is installed (with a special breakout clip) then perhaps the current drivers can be reprogrammed.

IIRC, all microcontroller have non volatile memory to save the program that it is supposed to be running.


----------



## JohnnyAirtime (Sep 10, 2012)

responded in *bold*



SemiMan said:


> I guess this is not the time to suggest a more featured RGB driver?
> *It's not easy to find the one that fits into my application, and does what I need. But I am asking the manufacturer to re-build a quantity of drivers that default back to the setting I need. Not sure if it's possible or not.*​
> 1) Can the driver be run without damage with the load disconnected? The answer is probably yes.
> *I'll ask*​
> ...


----------



## JohnnyAirtime (Sep 10, 2012)

Gunner12 said:


> If you have contacts at the place that makes the driver, perhaps you can ask them to make you a driver with memory? From the sounds of it, the microcontroller of the driver saves the mode of the light on ram, which is naturally erased on power off (as you figured out).
> 
> If the setting is saved onto flash instead of ram, then it'll stay between power cycles. If the driver can be programmed after the microcontroller is installed (with a special breakout clip) then perhaps the current drivers can be reprogrammed.
> 
> IIRC, all microcontroller have non volatile memory to save the program that it is supposed to be running.



Exactly what I'm trying to do.

First... ask them to build me a quantity of drivers with a default setting that I need. I'm in process of asking that now.

Second... asking them if they can re-design to include non-volatile memory in future builds.

They've already made mention they cannot re-do my drivers, being they are 'waterproofed' in potting material. And I've confirmed it, by opening the drivers exterior and visually inspecting.

*... I still need to see if I can use something like a resistor, or such device that will allow the memory to be retained but the driver to not fully power up the LED. Is there anyone who knows if it's truly a resistor I'm looking for?? And if so, what sizes would give me an output power of say 25%, 50%, 75% to use, and test with? I have a spare driver I can use for testing, and see if it would work.*


----------



## Gunner12 (Sep 10, 2012)

You'll probably need resistors with high power ratings (probably 100w would be safe), but if you have those already, I guess you could just test different resistances and see which one works.

If the driver can run continuously without load, then you can have a switch to disconnect the LEDs from the driver.


----------



## JohnnyAirtime (Sep 10, 2012)

Replied in *bold*.



Gunner12 said:


> You'll probably need resistors with high power ratings (probably 100w would be safe), but if you have those already, I guess you could just test different resistances and see which one works.
> 
> *This is what I'm "assuming", but I need to know what resistors to use.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gunner12 (Sep 10, 2012)

Ask the manufacturer first about running the driver with no load, so you don't burn out a driver through testing.

As for resistor, V = I * R.

V = voltage
I = current in A
R = resistance in ohms

So to find the resistance, R = V / I

Say the driver is 12v constant and supplies 5A, so R would be 2.4 ohm, but the resistor should be rated to at least 60w heat dissipation, or you'll end up with a glowing resistor and burned hands if you try to take it out. Check the outpu voltage range of the driver first, if it changes depending on the load, it might make it harder to calculate resistance.

Also, is it a constant current source, constant voltage source, adjustable, etc?


----------



## JohnnyAirtime (Sep 10, 2012)

Gunner12 said:


> Ask the manufacturer first about running the driver with no load, so you don't burn out a driver through testing.
> 
> As for resistor, V = I * R.
> 
> ...



Thanks Gunner... I guess it'd help if I had all the math, to add to the formula! Which I don't... so I'll have to wait for the spec sheet.

And that formula, well... math wasn't my strong point.  Let's just say, I'd be better off giving the specs of the driver... and allowing someone else to do the equation.

I do know.... I'm supplying the 110V AC (typical house current) via the "timer". The driver can output variable DC to the LED, but at this point, it's best to assume it's max output... correct? Here's a picture of the driver's label... not sure if it'll help;





My assumptions are;
Working input range; 95-265V AC (what's needed to power the LED chip, not necessarily what will keep memory)
DC Output; 18-34V (to power the LED Chip)

... I honestly think me "thinking" anything, is more cause for alarm. As I only know enough to be dangerous! :thinking:


----------



## beley (Sep 10, 2012)

Judging from the the input voltage range on that powersupply/Driver its input stage is a switchmode powersupply, which likely means that if you try to lower the input voltage/current just enough to keep the microcontroller alive but not power the leds it will not work. there will be a point where it will go from not enough power to work at all to fully on with nothing in between. As Semiman said earlier your best bet is to use the timer to disconnect the leds from the driver (assuming the driver can tolerate this). A mor complicated option would be to do some surgery on the driver and power the microcontroller inside with a separate isolated powersupply ( assuming you can get past the potting) which would stay on when the main powersupply is turned off.


----------



## JohnnyAirtime (Sep 10, 2012)

beley said:


> Judging from the the input voltage range on that powersupply/Driver its input stage is a switchmode powersupply, which likely means that if you try to lower the input voltage/current just enough to keep the microcontroller alive but not power the leds it will not work. there will be a point where it will go from not enough power to work at all to fully on with nothing in between. As Semiman said earlier your best bet is to use the timer to disconnect the leds from the driver (assuming the driver can tolerate this). A mor complicated option would be to do some surgery on the driver and power the microcontroller inside with a separate isolated powersupply ( assuming you can get past the potting) which would stay on when the main powersupply is turned off.



I appreciate those suggestions... but, at this time as I mentioned... it's not feasible.


----------



## SemiMan (Sep 10, 2012)

Where are you located JohnnyAirtime? It sounds like you plan to build many of these for sale? I noticed no certifications on the driver, not even the typical CE (can be somewhat meaningless) that is often on Chinese supplies. Just be wary. If something burns down, fingers could be pointed and they won't be pointed at the driver supplier, but you.

Another note, is that 34*3*0.6 = 61.2 > 110 * 0.34 = 34 ... I.e. the possible output power is greater than the input power. That again is another cause for concern.

Not sure you will know this, but I wonder if the output is PWMed for brightness control. Essentially this means the LEDs are turned on and off real fast and for a controlled amount of time. This is typical. If that is the case, then there is likely little storage on the outputs and you may be able to disconnect and reconnect the LEDs without damage to the supply or LEDs. No guarantees though.

Semiman


----------



## JohnnyAirtime (Sep 11, 2012)

SemiMan said:


> Where are you located JohnnyAirtime? It sounds like you plan to build many of these for sale? I noticed no certifications on the driver, not even the typical CE (can be somewhat meaningless) that is often on Chinese supplies. Just be wary. If something burns down, fingers could be pointed and they won't be pointed at the driver supplier, but you.
> 
> Another note, is that 34*3*0.6 = 61.2 > 110 * 0.34 = 34 ... I.e. the possible output power is greater than the input power. That again is another cause for concern.
> 
> ...



My location or intent of the product, has nothing to do with the question.
I do appreciate your concern about non-certification on the label... but, again... it's not directly relative to my question or problem at this point.

It is not "PWMed" as you say. 

And again, I'll repeat myself... I CANNOT DISCONNECT THE DRIVER OUTPUT to the LED MULTI-CHIP to SOLVE THIS ISSUE. 

... what I'm working on, being this isn't the only site I've asked this question... is to order new drivers, from the manufacturer with a custom build. Or to find a new driver with proper non-volatile memory.


----------



## SemiMan (Sep 11, 2012)

JohnnyAirtime said:


> My location or intent of the product, has nothing to do with the question.
> I do appreciate your concern about non-certification on the label... but, again... it's not directly relative to my question or problem at this point.
> 
> It is not "PWMed" as you say.
> ...




WHAT YOU SAID AND I WILL PARAPHRASE 

"I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SWITCH THREE OUTPUTS FROM MY TIMER AND I DON'T FEEL LIKE SOURCING A NEW TIMER SO THEREFORE IT CAN'T BE DONE" ...... Oh, and you added it later and sorry if we don't go back and read the edited versions of what was posted ....

You asked for help, lose the attitude. I am glad you have asked this question on other boards. Have you received as many knowledgeable response? ... think not. You are a commercial vendor and are asking for free assistance AND you are doing it with attitude. How nice. You are on your own at least from my standpoint.

Have fun with your aquarium light.


----------



## JohnnyAirtime (Sep 11, 2012)

SemiMan said:


> WHAT YOU SAID AND I WILL PARAPHRASE
> 
> "I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SWITCH THREE OUTPUTS FROM MY TIMER AND I DON'T FEEL LIKE SOURCING A NEW TIMER SO THEREFORE IT CAN'T BE DONE" ...... Oh, and you added it later and sorry if we don't go back and read the edited versions of what was posted ....
> 
> You asked for help, lose the attitude. You are on your own at least from my standpoint.


Me... attitude? Uhhh, no... I'm just being blunt and to the point, because of repetitious comments. No need to waste anyone's time with duplicate info.
Plus, those with their own agenda... or "side bar" of questions not relating to the topic... are, also... a waste of all of our time.

It seems you've taken my post defensively, it is not I with the attitude. 

The edit to that post, was done simply because I know what is obtainable with the product I'm using. If you had read the posts today, since your last posting yesterday, it would have been pretty obvious in your reading. It didn't require any extensive back tracking on your, or anyone's part. I only edited it :58min after the initial posting. Not like you were watching the thread, and missed the edit within that timeframe. Especially since you posted a whole 12+ hours after the edit. 

And your paraphrase is incorrect. But, glad you had fun with it. As that 'comment' is the only thing I can see as being "with attitude". 

This thread was already decided as a BAD IDEA to use a resistor or diode. I was already "on my own". And am working with the manufacturer to re-design the driver, but I bet you missed that part too... since you've seemingly got a reading comprehension problem. :wave:


*I would like to say a huge thanks to GUNNER12, he's been the most help... with NO attitude.
*


----------



## SemiMan (Sep 11, 2012)

JohnnyAirtime said:


> Me... attitude? Uhhh, no... I'm just being blunt and to the point, because of repetitious comments. No need to waste anyone's time with duplicate info.
> Plus, those with their own agenda... or "side bar" of questions not relating to the topic... are, also... a waste of all of our time.
> 
> It seems you've taken my post defensively, it is not I with the attitude.
> ...



I did not take your post defensively, I just took it as what is was, asinine. It had obvious attitude because WE who were trying to help, had wasted YOUR precious time.

First, I actually I DID read your first post where you did not know whether you could disconnect the LEDs or not probably soon after you posted it as I was following the thread! Hence I would not go back and re-read it.

Two, you gave attitude to beley with your "... but, at this time as I mentioned... it's not feasible." .... But actually did not clarify whether it was the modification of the driver or the switching off of the LEDs that was not feasible.


No one gave attitude in their posts, but YOU until the end. You said you had 0 electronics experience. Hence someone pointing out that the input power rating of the power supply not matching the specs of the driver and the lack of certifications is very valid thing to do. What possible agenda could I have for doing that? Oh, perhaps saving you the hassle of early driver failures because the input stage is over-driven or perhaps saving some property and YOUR reputation if the unit fails, causes shock, etc? 

AND based on your highlighted in RED edit, my paraphrase is accurate as simply adding a $1.50 - 3 channel relay to your existing timer is all it would take to disconnect the channels. You did not say it technically did not work, just highlighted why you thought it was not feasible. If you can switch in resistors, then you can switch off LEDs ...... 

You were not up-front this was for commercial purposes either. People are providing their time and knowledge for free. It is fair to be up front that you do this for commercial purposes.


----------



## Gunner12 (Sep 11, 2012)

If you have a spare driver you are willing to loose, you could try running it without load and see if it blows up or dies or gets too hot an melts. Of course, it'll be better if the manufacturer knows and tells you.

You can get electronic switches for each output line and wire them out to the same enable, so all LEDs are turned off when the enable is off.

I was wondering, what will this setup be used for?


----------



## JohnnyAirtime (Sep 11, 2012)

Gunner12 said:


> If you have a spare driver you are willing to loose, you could try running it without load and see if it blows up or dies or gets too hot an melts. Of course, it'll be better if the manufacturer knows and tells you.
> 
> You can get electronic switches for each output line and wire them out to the same enable, so all LEDs are turned off when the enable is off.
> 
> I was wondering, what will this setup be used for?



I do have a spare driver... But I'm a day away from hearing about possible changes from the driver manufacturer, so I'd like to wait it out and see what my choices will be. 

Let me give you more of the scoop, and maybe it'll help as to why this needs to be done;

These drivers, are being used in Pendant style lighting. Each pendant, has two 60W RGB Multi-Chips providing light, therefore each pendant has two 60W RGB Drivers. However, the RGB chips are NOT as red/green/blue. The coloring of the chip is 12,000K white/460nm Blue/ 435nm Purple. Being the driver has a wireless remote control to adjust output color or intensity, I have a great range of output lighting. WHY you ask do I need all of this? ... it's working over a large 300gal saltwater coral reef tank in my home. I'm currently using (4) of these pendants that I've designed with the manufacturer, over this tank. So this results in 8 drivers being used, or a total of 24 individual outputs.

Also, the timer pictured in the original post, is enabling/disabling the 110V input to the driver. But giving me control over each driver... in each pendant. This way, I'm able to turn on one LED chip at a time... slowly simulating sunrise, or the overall intensity. Same in reverse, for sunset... and turning off each driver one at a time, via timers.

No... I'm not doing this commercially or for profit. It's simply for myself, and my own hobby. Hence the reason I posted on this site... I thought it'd be "fun" to have fellow enthusiasts help me figure out a solution to the issue.

Here's the tank, and pictures of the actual 120W pendant (again, this is somewhat irrelevant... and makes me feel more arrogant for sharing, as-if I'm gloating. Which I'm not. Just trying to show you all what I'm using it for... or it's end use, and why all the specifics);

...click on any thumbnail for a larger view...


 

 

 

I'm testing them in several sizes... (from left to right; 160W, 120W, 60W);


----------



## JohnnyAirtime (Sep 11, 2012)

... *I just learned*, the *manufacturer is going to re-program 11 drivers for me* that will default to my needed setting when powered back up.
(I've also asked them to think about re-designing the driver, to add non-volatile memory. We'll see what they say... I'm not sure they are too interested at the moment).

Now this whole thread is a mute point (somewhat).... As I'd truly rather find a solution for "today", and one that won't cost me so much money. Buying 11 drivers, isn't in the budget.


----------



## Gunner12 (Sep 11, 2012)

Nice, that'll work, until you decide to change the settings.

Also, nice reef!


----------



## JohnnyAirtime (Sep 11, 2012)

Gunner12 said:


> Nice, that'll work, until you decide to change the settings.
> 
> Also, nice reef!



The main goal, is to have the driver retain one setting.
That setting, even though not variable (at this point and time)... will be most used day in, day out.

I don't have much need to adjust the setting, other then for the wow-factor (when showing the lights capability to friends, or other enthusiasts)... I could really, go to a standard driver (non wireless, non remote control) and be done with all this. However, now that I've had a taste for the ability to change those settings and see different effects over the tank... it's hard to let it go. 

... I'm hoping that the driver manufacturer, will see the need for "memory" and change their design. Not sure little'old me is enough to get-er-done, but there's always hope. 

Thanks for the compliment. It's one of many tanks in my house. A great hobby... if I could just leave it alone, and let it do it's thing!


----------

