# Phase converter went POOF!



## cmacclel (Jun 1, 2009)

Well I installed my new CNC mill Friday and had it wired up Saturday morning. I had the machine up and running and played with it for about a 1/2 hour then shut it down. Sunday morning a former co-worker machinist stopped by to help me figure it out and check out my new machine. We had the unit up and running for about an hour and ran a few test programs and everything was going well. We then started to check out the conversational software built into the control when the computer froze up. I power cycled the machine twice via the 3-phase disconnect located on the back of the control box but got no video  the rest of the machine was lit up but no display was present. I then shut down the phase converter and opened up the control box and checked all the connections and blew out the dust and chips from the CPU unit which is just a regular older pentium standard PC with a single controller card.
Upon firing up the few month old American Rotary 15hp converter it was making a vibration sound like the motor was hard to start. I shut it down and inspected it, everything looked fine so I hit the start button again and got the same noise then all of a sudden a hiss came out of the box with a room full of SMOKE! After removing the from cover you could see oil spewed out of one of the caps.

Turns out after talking to American Rotary that the start capacitor blew and this happens when there is a load on the line when trying to start a phase converter. I'm 100% sure that nothing was on so that was not the case. The manual also stated frequent starts and stops can cause this.

I was told to pick up another start capacitor from Grainger and that I should be fine........keeping my fingers crossed that every works after I install the new cap later today.


Mac


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 1, 2009)

Dude! Your heart must have sank. I know mine would have. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you too. :thumbsup:


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## jtg (Jun 1, 2009)

Wow,
Now I am worried. I never heard about rotary phase convertors blowing up the caps like that just for starting and stopping frequently.
You won't believe this but not 1 hour ago I called American Rotary and ordered a 10 horsepower one after talking on the phone with their tech for about 30 minutes.
Now I am worried that maybe I should have ordered the Phase-a-matic brand instead.
American Rotary also sells the Gentec brand which is supposed to be their UL listed model but it was about 200 dollars more.
Oh well, maybe you just got a bad one because I have only heard good things about them.
He did say use a 30 amp fuse, 6 guage wire and 8 guage wire to machine.
good luck,
John


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 1, 2009)

I've had my 10HP American Rotary RPC since I got my new lathe and have had no issues to date.


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## jtg (Jun 1, 2009)

Mirage man, Thats good to hear. I forgot you had one of those.
Actually I purchased it because of your advice. I think I made the right choice. I am going to order the lathe as soon as the convertor comes in and i figure out where to install it. I really miss not having a lathe.
john


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## LED Boatguy (Jun 1, 2009)

You can have my converter.....

You just have to buy the Hardinge HLV-H Tool Room Lathe that goes with it :thumbsup:.


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## KC2IXE (Jun 2, 2009)

LED Boatguy said:


> You can have my converter.....
> 
> You just have to buy the Hardinge HLV-H Tool Room Lathe that goes with it :thumbsup:.



How Much


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## LED Boatguy (Jun 2, 2009)

KC2IXE said:


> How Much


 
EDIT:**********SOLD!******************


$8,500 in La Habra, Ca.


I've added over $5,000 worth of goodies to it including extra chucks (2 3-jaw and 1 4-jaw), ALL of the round 5C Precision Collets (1/16" to 1-1/16"), the Taper Turning Attachment, a KDK Quick Change Tool System. Included are all of the tool holders, cutters, carbide inserts, boring bars, knurling tools, live centers and chucks for the tailstock.

This really is a gem.

Here is a virtually identical machine for $16,500.

http://www.sterlingmachinery.com/6714/Hardinge+HLV-+H

In case you're not familiar with Hardinge lathes, this is the crème de la crème for this size machine. Chucking with a collet, the runout is measured in millionths of an inch.

The Enco mill in the background is going next. It was bought new in 1994.





































PS: What looks like rust on the lathe is really wood dust. This lathe turned a lot of exotic hard woods.


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## precisionworks (Jun 2, 2009)

> maybe I should have ordered the Phase-a-matic brand instead.


FWIW, I have a brand new, 25 hp Phase-A-Matic for sale ... PM if interested.



> never heard about rotary phase convertors blowing up the caps like that just for starting and stopping frequently.


It's not uncommon. The capacitors are one method used to start a RPC ... other methods being a pony motor or a pull rope starter. The caps charge up & then discharge into the three phase idler to get the idler up to synchronos speed (nameplate rpm). ACL (across the line) starting puts a huge load on the caps, which is why one will fail on occasion.


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## cmacclel (Jun 2, 2009)

I installed the new $15 start cap last night and everything is back up and running including the Mill  

American Rotary is sending me a different relay and a different run cap and a starting cap for a slightly different setup. He said if my start cap blew in the 5 months that I have been using it, it may happen again and which is why he is sending me the other setup.

Sweet HLVH! I was looking at them before I purchased my new lathe but there where to small for my application.

Mac


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## StrikerDown (Jun 2, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> Mac



Plus 1. 

That unknown factor really makes the butt pucker! Really happy for you it was a simple fix. 

Now to have some fun with it:twothumbs


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## wquiles (Jun 2, 2009)

+1 - glad to hear the solution was simple and cheap


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## KC2IXE (Jun 2, 2009)

Gah, I wish the house sale had already gone through - I'd be buying


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## precisionworks (Jun 2, 2009)

> I wish the house sale had already gone through


Some banks offer a "bridge loan" which is a way to get funds before something sells ... may be worth a look. That's a sweet HLV-H, and a great price with the tooling.


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## 65535 (Jun 2, 2009)

That is seriously sweet. I really wish I could have one of those. Little sacrilegious to use it on wood though. 

That is a steel for $8,500 that collet collection is probably worth nearly $2,000.


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## KC2IXE (Jun 3, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> Some banks offer a "bridge loan" which is a way to get funds before something sells ... may be worth a look. That's a sweet HLV-H, and a great price with the tooling.



I don't do debt - makes life a tad less precarious. $0 balance on credit cards, paid more than 50% of my new car as cash, with only a 2 year loan that will go early, put 35% down on my house, and bought less than they told me I could afford

It would be different if I was making a living with the lathe, then I'd consider debt, but for a hobby? Nope - can't pay cash, can't swing it, but man that sounds like I great deal

My goal is an HLV-H in the basement this year, but I have one tiny problem. The stairs. The base on "newer" HLVHs is 28" wide - my steps are 27" The thing is, if I take the lathe off the base, flip it over, the bottom 12" or so of the steps have 28.5" of clearance....

I'm also seriously considering putting in an outside entrance...


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## LED Boatguy (Jun 3, 2009)

65535 said:


> That is seriously sweet. I really wish I could have one of those. Little sacrilegious to use it on wood though.


 
I thought it was sacrilegious to show it with a three-jaw chuck!

FYI: The machine was made in 1983 and was used for five years in a mom-and-pop tool and die shop. We bought the machine in '88 when the guy retired, so it really only has five years of REAL use on it.

PS Sorry about hijacking the thread.


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## precisionworks (Jun 3, 2009)

> Sorry about hijacking the thread.


A nice HLV-H, or a clean Monarch 10-EE, is reason enough to hijack any thread


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## cmacclel (Nov 23, 2009)

Phase converter went poof again!!!!

Contact in the relay stuck  

Mac


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## wquiles (Nov 23, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> Phase converter went poof again!!!!
> 
> Contact in the relay stuck
> 
> Mac


Sorry to hear. Would switching to a VFD be an option?


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## cmacclel (Nov 23, 2009)

wquiles said:


> Sorry to hear. Would switching to a VFD be an option?




Machine(s) already has VFD's.....though 3 phase on to 3 phase out  I should have just bought a phase perfect!

Mac


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## precisionworks (Nov 23, 2009)

> I should have just bought a phase perfect!


+1

Purchase the PP, get a warranty replacement for the American Rotary & put it on Craigslist or eBay. All the CNC users love the PP.



> Would switching to a VFD be an option?


Some machines already have a mile of wiring, motor starters, contactors, etc ... and a variable speed spindle drive. For those machines, either a rotaty converter or a solid state converter (Phase Perfect) is preferred.


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## cmacclel (Nov 23, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> +1
> 
> Purchase the PP, get a warranty replacement for the American Rotary & put it on Craigslist or eBay. All the CNC users love the PP.
> 
> Some machines already have a mile of wiring, motor starters, contactors, etc ... and a variable speed spindle drive. For those machines, either a rotaty converter or a solid state converter (Phase Perfect) is preferred.



Barry I would if I didn't have a $7.5k machine payment due in a month! a 10hp Phase Perfect is now $2808 + $125 Shipping. 

Mac


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## niner (Nov 23, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> Phase converter went poof again!!!!
> 
> Contact in the relay stuck
> 
> Mac


 
Sorry to hear that, Mac.


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## precisionworks (Nov 23, 2009)

Quite a few auto-start RPC's use a potential relay - both commercial & shop built units. As you've found out, when the potential relay contacts weld shut it takes out one or more of the starting caps. The easiest work around is to eliminate the relay & replace it with a momentary contact push button. To start the RPC, you push the button in & hold it in until the idler is up to speed, then _immediately _release. Just like the relay, if you don't immediately release, the push button will also blow out the start cap(s). 

While your American Rotary is under warranty, you may want to do nothing but have them replace parts. You might ask if they will send an extra relay & a couple of extra starting caps so your machine will not be down if this happens again.


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## 65535 (Nov 23, 2009)

Throw some heavy duty caps and SSR's in there.

I personally hate RPC. SS is the way to go.

My issue with 1PH stuff is starting caps, it's toxic and messy when they go out, and they do go out often enough.


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## precisionworks (Nov 23, 2009)

> I personally hate RPC. SS is the way to go.


At this point in time, digital phase conversion is still expensive relative to a rotary converter. As Mac said, $3k for the Phase Perfect. Compare that to $700 for the American Rotary, and the PP costs 4x more.

IMO, the "best" rotary is not auto-start, but rather pony-start. No commercial units are available like this, but a zillion people have built them in their shop. A pony motor, sized at roughly 10% of the idler size, is powered up and connected to the idler (usually by belt). Once the idler reaches about 105% of nameplate speed, power is removed from the pony & the idler is brought online. Rope start is even more simple, but it takes an animal to spin a 10 hp idler up to 1800 rpm with arm power


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