# Emergency/Disaster Situation Lighting



## Dean N (Oct 4, 2011)

I'll apologize ahead of time for the long post. This could/should have perhaps been broken into several posts, but I'm putting together a lighting package, so seeing what all the package is seemed pertinent. On with the show...

I recently completed a CERT training course, and I am in the process putting together a couple of emergency triage/medical/light search and rescue backpacks for myself, in addition to the CERT bag provided by the FD. I'm looking at lights to satisfy a few different purposes, and realize that there is no one shoe fits all, so I'll get a few different (identical) lights for each bag. I'm looking for some feedback on what to consider for the following lighting scenarios:

*Area Lighting*: This is the one I need the most help on. I'm thinking about lighting for a multiple casualty triage zone. It would be impractical to lug around lanterns in my bag so I was looking at "candle" feature flashlights, but seriously, I would spend a small fortune to get enough to light an open air area. Then it occurred to me that glow sticks might be just the ticket. Unfortunately I have no experience with them and wanted to see if possibly someone here did. There aren't as many glow stick options as there are flashlights, but there are enough options that research is needed. There are various lengths, diameters, and colors. Brightness ratings seem non existent, though Cyalume's product pages mention that their 12" stick provide 4x the light of there 6"" stick for the same duration. There is some "mcd/m2 rating", but it doesn't seem to equate to lumens. Also, I'm not sure which color, if any glows brighter. I kinda presume the lighter (white) the better, but I don't know. The 12" is available ONLY in green, so...


*Search & Rescue Handheld*: I'm pretty much set on the Quark AA2 Turbo, unless I am made aware of something better for less, or there is something I am overlooking. The S&R would be primarily suburban, though I suppose urban is possible. The things I like most about it is the efficient use of readily available AA batteries (a must, and we don't live in a severe climate area) and the programmable variable output. Also the waterproofing due to chance of immersing. What I really like about the variable output is I can use just the amount of light I need, prolonging battery life, though have at my disposal a relatively bright light with decent throw. Are there other lights that have these features (AAs, variable power, ~200 max lumens, decent throw) to rival this Quark?


*S&R/Extraction Headlamp*: Again, I think I have my choice narrowed down to the Zebralight H51 Series. What I like about this light is although it would be most used for extraction (and medical and triage depending on ambient lighting conditions), the various carry modes make it a good practical light as well. I want to keep both of the S&R lights on the same batteries, so AA is required, as is waterproofing. What I don't like about the H51 is the broad spacing between the medium and high settings, 28 and 95. I'm not sure 28 is enough, and 95 seems like a lot... I would like a 45-ish setting. I am aware of the Ultrafire UF-2HB with the variable power settings, but I'm not sold on the light itself. I saw the "2008 Headlamps: comprehensive list and details" thread, but honestly didn't go through it all *yet*, mainly because it was started 3 years ago. I'm working through the Flood Beam Headlamp List - 2011 to see if there are lights like the H51 series. So far, nothing. Any suggestions to shorten my research time? 


*Relatively Powerful Light*: Seems it would be good to have one that is a decently long throw spot(ish) light. Again I think I would want to stick with the AAs for continuity, though I suppose I could change my mind on that if the AA batteries limit my choices to just one or two lights. Waterproof is again desired, but I would want multiple power levels and an SOS signal. Something like the Fenix TK41. I haven't had much time to look into this category, yet, but I have looked at a couple dozen, usually eliminating the light due to battery type or no SOS.


Thanks for reading through. 

Dean


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## ragweed (Oct 4, 2011)

If you would use the search bar here, I am sure you will find what your looking for. Also, the reviews section is very helpful. Good Luck..!


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## Dean N (Oct 4, 2011)

I agree, and I have done a lot of that, but didn't find much on area lighting or experience with and information on Cyalume sticks. Searching and asking is, however, how I arrived at my near decisions on the handheld and headlamp lights, though I wonder if I missed looking lights with similar features. With the relatively powerful light, I admit, I haven't looked a lot, but the 20-30 I have looked up were goose chases, which is why I asked for assistance on what to consider.

I'm still looking, not just waiting, but there is an awful lot to look through.


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## StarHalo (Oct 4, 2011)

- The only practical application for glow sticks is for use as a locator, like when caving and the team sometimes gets spread out, everyone wears a glow stick so you're easily accounted for. And to be honest, that's the second most often used application for them; first would be to keep kids entertained (still entirely relevant if your site will have any children).

- Quark lights don't have infinitely variable output, if that's important to you, look into some of the Sunwayman lights, with the caveat that the Quark will have better battery life than almost anything else (with the same battery config).

- The use of headlamps eliminates the need for area lighting, but if you're talking about a lot of people in an emergency situation, the only thing that's portable that would light that kind of area is a magnesium starter to set campfires.


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## Hogokansatsukan (Oct 4, 2011)

I would not limit yourself to AA only lights. In a prolonged situation, you may find yourself changing batteries far too often. I find it better to keep a stock of batteries (cr123). Area lighting outside is going to be tough. Light sticks, as has been mentioned, or good to keep the kids entertained but beyond that...
IMHO, a headlamp that runs on 18650 batteries that will run a long time is a must. Hours fly by in emergency situations and a light that runs an hour will seem like it only goes for 10 minutes when the SHTF. For anything involving injuries, make sure it is a neutral tint and not cool white.


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## whiteoakjoe (Oct 4, 2011)

1. The only portable lighting I have ever found that is effective is a bottled or white gas lantern. 
2. The Quark AA turbo is great for its size I have one but like the 4XAA lights like the Fenix LD40, Jetbeam PA40 for the increased runtimes.
3. Your choice of the Zebralight H51 is a great choice, for medical purposes look at the neurtal or high CRI version of this light.
4. If you go with a 4xAA as your Search & Rescue, you could kill 2 birds with one stone, and use the same light here. and carry extra batteries in its place, or belt carry a 2xAA as a constant backup to the others.

My experience with lagre scale disasters (Katrina and several midwestern tornado strikes) has shown me that batteries are the week link in your gear, you never have enough. Your choice of AA power is probably the way to go I would take a 12v charger and a dozen eneloops if I had to do any of it again.


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## Darvis (Oct 4, 2011)

Dean, welcome to CPF.. I'll take stab at this and see what I can add.

I'm an avid camper (and you may be saying: "yeah, so?") but I think what pertains to useful camping lighting very much tells you what will work in situations you might be preparing for, for instance

Area lighting: I've tried it all, lanterns, glow sticks, campfire light, you name it. Nothing, and I mean nothing beats a headlamp. Essentially, without a flat white ceiling to bounce light off of, diffused light does almost nothing except create glare at eye level. If you try to hang it, it may provide some decent area lighting, but not enough to really see anything.. maybe help you to stop from tripping on stuff, but that's about it. You will not have enough light for anything else

Think about when you drive by construction zones on the highway... they do not have huge lanterns lighting up the joint, they have reflectored lights aimed at the work zone. Go headlamp here if you can.

S&R: Frankly, the AA T is a good light, but not one I would consider to be search and rescue. When I hear that, I think of a single output substantial light that can provide capacity and output... thinking a 1-2x18650 type host with a solid drop in such as a Malkoff M61 or 91. Talk about a tool for the task, if S&R is a key factor, here's where to spend your money. Plus you just saved some by eliminating the area lighting, right?  I also think the Dereelight DBS V3 is great choice here.

Headlamps: Zebralight is a solid choice here. You know that all Zebralights come with headbands? So even the flashlights can be used as headlamps in a pinch.. I like the dedicated ones better, but none the less, love Zebralights, have 9 of them my self, use them all the time and have had great luck with them.

Relatively powerful light: I think (and someone else said this as well) that you're limiting yourself by settling on just AA batteries (and don't think they'll be easy to find). Have some AA flashlights as backups, but 18650 lights are far more powerful and versitile and solar chargers, etc are options here. Consider that one powerful 18650 light such as the great Zebralight SC60 (get them before they're gone) or the SC600 can cover multiple needs for you, much better than any AA. A bombproof Malkoff M61L or LL in a simple Surefire G2 host is aces better than most any light you can find for multiple reason, including S&R. Go with an aluminum host for the M61 or 91. Surefires? Have at them, awesome lights and I personally have multiple E1L's as backup lights.. Variety is the key.

AA's a re great to have, but I would never want one as primary in an emergency situation. Granted, any light is better than no light, and good for you for asking and thinking!!! Sorry about the fractured response as well, had to hurry through, but will be back if you have any more questions.

Good luck!

D


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## tolkaze (Oct 4, 2011)

Depending on how you were going to use them, you could mock up a system similar to the 24/7 emergency light. I think that a zebralight headlamp on you, using AA's then if you could get it, maybe a ZL H60 or two running on 18650's provides a ton of light, for a very long time. Make a magnet mount for the bracket and you can stick your H60's anywhere you have metal. On top of a car, on the side of your emergency kit, on the side rail of a highway, or just put them in a fork of a tree pointing roughly where you want / need light. There are a few people here who have also put a small magnet in the tailcap of a ZL AA sized light, so they can mount it anywhere you have metal


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## HotWire (Oct 5, 2011)

Whatever lights you pick, you'll need boxes of batteries for each format. I keep lots of AA, AAA, 18650, 123 primaries, and RCR123s. Most "emergencies" around here are loss of power. A big earthquake can ruin your day! Lights that are not very bright and save battery power are very useful. If you don't have batteries, you have nothing.


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## Dean N (Oct 5, 2011)

EXCELLENT feedback, folks! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!

Lots to consider here, and I really appreciate the time invested in the responses. Made me think a little differently and realize some things. For instance, *whiteoakloe*, good call on the lighting version for the headlamp. I was thinking whitest/brightest/longest lasting, but for medical use good color rendering is necessary for identification of health conditions (skin color, bruising/internal bleeding signs, etc.).

Good stuff, here.

Dean


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## davidt1 (Oct 5, 2011)

For ZL headlamps, consider the flood models. The H51FW or the upcoming H502W should be great for the task you described. You are right about these being practical lights. With the right mods, you will be amazed what else you can do with them besides using them as headlamps. Please check out the "Zebralight Mods" thread in the headlamp forum for more info.


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## Dean N (Oct 6, 2011)

*Area Lighting*: Excellent feedback on the Cyalume sticks. Some vendors would have you believe otherwise to the lighting capabilities, so I'm real glad I checked here first!. I may still pick up a small box of them as locators as mentioned, and enclosed space illumination. Also dangerous obstacle markers. *whiteaokjoe*, I do have a white gas lantern (and also a rather cruddy 6V fluorescent model), they are just impractical for a go-bag. *tolkaze*, I like that Inova 24/7 you mentioned for other things as well actually, so I'm calling that done. I needed something to replace the old flares in our cars, and the Inova 24/7 just did. I have 8 on the way for ~$15 each from an eBay vendor. Item #120785352069 if anyone is interested. One going into each of our cars (4), one for grandma, two for the bags, one extra. te day i need them I'll get them out of as many of the cars as I can. I do have a few other CR123 lights (Surefire 6P & 9P w/ThruNite XML Single Mode LED drop ins, and SF618 incandescent), so by having Inova 24/7 lights, it isn't as though I have no reason for 123s otherwise. I would just like to minimize my dependance on them... though I kinda just didn't by buying a batch of 123 lights.

*Search & Rescue Handheld*: The S&R I'm envisioning includes a lot of burn time just getting to the location, so that is why I would want a multi-power light. I may be totally off here, though, so if you have S&R experience, please, tell me otherwise! *Darvis*, I need to let my edumacation here evolve a bit more before I can understand all of the option on the Dereelight DBS V3. Honestly, I'm confused.  *StarHalo*, I though read the AA Turbo had a further throw over the non-Turbo model, and also a user definable output for the 5 power levels... 'course now I can't find that second part. (sigh) *whiteoakloe*, I am also looking at 4xAA lights (including those models) as well for a brighter or longer lasting light. 

*S&R/Extraction Headlamp*: *whiteoakloe*, good call on the lighting version. I was thinking whitest/brightest/longest lasting, but for medical use good color rendering is necessary for identification of health conditions (skin color, bruising/internal bleeding signs, etc.). Davidt1, yes, I'm impressed with the H51. You brought it up in my College Student Flashlight Thread, and I have liked it ever since. I still may get it for my daughter.

*Relatively Powerful Light*: *whiteoakloe*, yep, I was thinking about just that, though I need to revisit reviews on here. I still may get some 600+ lumen spot light though. If just to say, "ooohh". 

*On Batteries*: I think that in a time of disaster that AAs will be easier to find than 123s, and I would think certainly more than any other "specialty" batteries. Heck, I didn't even know they existed until I started lurking around here. I do use Eneloops in the house and have a dozen or so AA spares in addition to the dozen in use, 1/2 dozen AAA spares, and two chargers. I have no issue with picking up more spares and another charger or two. I also have 12V inverters with one being very compact, or which I can get another for ~$20. Not enough power to make margaritas in a Magic Bullet, but enough for a battery charger. I was thinking a charger, 12 spare Eneloops, and an inverter for each bag. All I need is a 12V or 120V source and I can charge what I need, and perhaps what others need as well. Some type of solar charging system is also something I have thought a bit about. Having to then also add a charger and more battery stock for RCR123s or something else starts to get cumbersome. *HotWire*, I'm with ya on the need for stocking batteries and on the not very bright lights that save battery power. It is finding the balance that is difficult. Pros and cons to every choice, I suppose.

So much to consider...

Dean


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## lightsolo (Oct 6, 2011)

I like the Pelican StealthLite 2410 Recoil LED Photoluminescent Flashlight for S&R. They have both hand held and head lamp versions. It uses AA batts and is submersible. Check out their website.


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## DuncanHynes (Oct 7, 2011)

Headlamp! And not a store bought junk circuity fail prone cold tint who-knows-what LED...nooo...a warm or neutral XPG like the Spark brand offered around the MarketPlace or on GoingGear. I have the 18650 that also takes 2 cr123s and the tiny AA model. They come with frosted lenses if you want in the box to swap out, DO so! No other way to be hands free. A great little 'vampire' that runs on a single cr123 is a Malkoff M61LLW. It just won't go dead on you, great personal backup, twisty if you put it in a Valiant host. AA format isn't worth it if you have to slap 4 or more cells IMO...too many have to be fresh. I have a Malkoff M31LL for just 2 AA's with a diffused lens for great indoor purpose needs. Search light, so many possibilites, my personal is a Malkoff Wildcat V2, has 3 XPGs, long runtime off of 2 18650's. 750 lumens, broad throw I call it. There are 2200 lights out there but again, using 6 18650's may not make sense if you had to swap for fresh ones. I have an HDS Executive clicky on me at all times. Period.


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## Lighthouse one (Oct 7, 2011)

I have several Xeon E03 AA lights with diffusers. I am very impressed with the amount of nice clean light and runtime I get with these. While they aren't overly powerful, they could be quickly set up at several locations until something brighter was available. Small and not too expensive. $30 for the 3 level light and $6 for the diffuser. Actually, DX sells cheaper diffusers that fit this and many other similar size lights.


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## ElectronGuru (Oct 8, 2011)

Dean N said:


> *On Batteries*: I think that in a time of disaster that AAs will be easier to find than 123s, and I would think certainly more than any other "specialty" batteries.



There were some interesting observations during the first big trial of this year's hurricane season. D's sold out first, followed by C's, followed by AA's and AAA's. The only cells still on the shelf a week later, were the 'weird' lithium sizes, including CR123. They won't be in every store, but they may still be easier to find.

My favorite emergency configuration lego is a G3 (or 9) with an M61LL. You can keep it loaded with 17500's and change to 3xCR123 _or_ 2xAA's, any time. Three completely different chemistries in the same package. And all will run for hours and hours. Add a traffic/safety wand and you've got area lighting, too.


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## Dean N (Oct 9, 2011)

*lightsolo*, I checked out that Pelican 2410PL, and it is something to consider. I looked to see what else is available with that specifically termed technology, but it seems Pelican is the only one. I'm looking for a similar feature (collimated beam) from other manufacturers. Lotta sifting, lotta beam shots to look at.

*DuncanHynes*, yep, lotta lights out there, and a lot to consider. 18650s are out of the question, though. Everything I have is AAA, AA and CR123, so I'm sticking with those... though RCR123s are a maybe.

*Lighthouse one*, those are neat little diffusers!

*ElectronGuru*, that is excellent insight on the battery situation. Unfortunately that just opened up the possibility door wider. Ughh.  On the "G3 (or 9)" you referred to, is that Surefire? I searched "G3 flashlight" and only came up with the Surefire G3D for a current model, but it doesn't say anything about multiple power sources. A search for "G9 Flashlight" resulted in a lot on Canon camera stuff. Or were you referring to a Surefire 9P? I do have a 6Pand a 9P, both with ThruNite XML Single Mode LEDs.


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## Dean N (Oct 9, 2011)

Ack! * ElectronGuru*, I just noticed your Sig-Line. Looking through those linked pages now...


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## notrefined (Oct 9, 2011)

Area lighting= headlamp for all personnel. there's no good way for you personally to provide adequate area lighting out of doors, without spending a lot of money and significantly adding to your load.

I personally think standardizing around 2/3a sized cells (CR123a) gives you more/better options than AA. My economy recommendation would be a surefire G3 ($30) with malkoff M61HCRI ($70) and removable beam-shaper (diffuser) ($15), and a streamlight sidewinder compact headlamp ($45). Bonus is that the G3+malkoff will run a heck of a long time (at reduced output) off of a pair of AAs if you must resort to it. The headlamp is a compromise at best, but I haven't yet found an off the shelf headlamp (or custom for less than a couple hundred dollars) that makes me completely happy (should take single 18650 or 2x123a, high CRI led emitter, dead simple UI). Better would be the M61HCRI in MD3 plus M91W in MD4 (all malkoff), both with hi/lo rings, plus surefire saint headlamp. 

More important than any of this is to have a good EDC so that you always have a backup to your CERT gear, and something on your person if you can't get to it in the first place. If you were starting from scratch I'd recommend malkoff hi CRI for this is well, sized appropriately for your EDC needs (starting from M31HCRI in Valiant little twisty and moving up in size from there). The economy version of this for me would be keeping the streamlight headlamp on your person at all times (a headlamp usually works just fine as a handheld flashlight in a pinch).


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## ElectronGuru (Oct 9, 2011)

Dean N said:


> On the "G3 (or 9)" you referred to, is that Surefire?



The SF G3 (part: G3-BK) is an incan model. Only the 123 cells were ever listed as supported. There are several locations online (not sf.com) to get them. Shoot me a PM if you'd like a link.


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## Dean N (Oct 9, 2011)

*notrefined*, thanks. I'll check out beam shapers (I didn't know there were such things) for my hand held light. For the headlamp, I do like the Zebralight H51 for it's size and versatility, but I'll look at the Sidewinder. I'm OK with single battery for that light as I will have a hand held with me that would have more power levels available and longer run time. EDC is something I'm still working on updating (that Peak Logan QTC looks promising)... basically, I'm updating my and my families entire illumination world. Only gripe so far is from my wife who thinks the Fenix E05 is too big for her key ring:shakehead.

*ElectronGuru*, gotcha.


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## Hooked on Fenix (Oct 9, 2011)

For the area light, I'd suggest just having a diffuser cap for your Quark. That gives you a lightweight 200 lumen lantern for around $5. Fenix makes a good one and may or may not fit your Quark. Mine fits my Fenix L2D, LD20, and my Olight T20. Quarks are another offshoot of Fenix. For the handheld and the headlight, it seems like you've made up your mind and have pretty good choices. For a powerful spotlight, I think you'll find that the brightest l.e.d.s are made for flood and not throw. The best throwing l.e.d. will probably be the R3 binned Cree XP-E. You won't get much higher than 200-300 lumens. If you want bright, go with a 35 watt H.I.D. spotlight. There are some lighter ones with lithium ion batteries, but these will obviously be more expensive.


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## Dean N (Oct 9, 2011)

Hooked on Fenix said:


> For the handheld and the headlight, it seems like you've made up your mind...


 Pretty much, though I haven't pulled the trigger yet.  I am more sold on the headlamp. There are good arguments for other handheld lights, ones that could dual-purpose as powerful(ish) spotlights, such as 4xAAs or 2-3x123s. I rather need to decide the power supply. AAs have their advantages as do 123s. I'm looking for lights that could accommodate both one way or another, kinda like the Peak Logan that can use the same head/tail on bodies for AAs and 123s, thought the Peaks seem to all be 1x power supply lights.


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## History Nut (Oct 10, 2011)

I can only speak from my experience in the Northridge Earthquake but since you are CERT certified, you may face similar circumstances. When an incident of that magnitude occurs and grid 'power' is lost, it is DARK! There is NO light at all except for your own flashlights/lanterns! I had a Streamlight angle-head on my turnouts and that gave me light for the rest of the night. Of course, that was a long time ago now and there are much better lights now. My suggestion is to test each light you want to use in an enclosed room that is really light-tight. That way you have some idea of what it will really do when there isn't any other light. Once you do that test, drop your light on the hard floor! If it quits working, find another model/brand/type. You are going to drop your light at some point and it must be rugged enough to keep working. Another suggestion is to have a few extra small lights in your bag in case you want a bystander to 'hold a light for you'. The bystander won't be focused enough to keep the light pointed where you need it(that is why headlamps are best) and may run off with your light. That is why you NEVER hand off your primary light. I don't know your potential environment but if it may involve floods or hard rain, you may want to check out lights sold in SCUBA shops that are certified for full immersion. I hope these comments are useful.


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## Dean N (Oct 10, 2011)

History Nut, definitely thought provoking comments, and you are apparently in my neck of the woods - I'm on the SF Peninsula. I was in LA for the Whittier quake, and just missed the Northridge quake. What the CERT Trainers here emphasized was the loss of all utilities and telecommunications for 7-10 days when the upcoming large earthquake hits, and it will. The only thing I have purchased so far is the Inova 24/7s, so as you suggested I just went down into our basement to check it out. I have no idea what the lumen output is, but on "low" it was area lighting for ~6', and that's about it. Perhaps if my eyes were acclimated to the dark it would have appeared brighter. On "high" it did a fine job of illuminating the area, which is ~50' deep x 20' wide on the one side. It could have easily gone 75' deep. I won't drop it on the floor, though, considering nothing was stated about impact resistance. They would only be employed as area lighting, if at all, but I get what you are saying about testing the light by dropping it... but kinda scary to do. 

As you mentioned I am also looking at "cost effective" lights of decent quality to pass out to folks, focusing more on run time. Yet another reason to go AAs. Most folks have AAs in their house, so we can get a couple runs out of them. Funny you mention scuba lights. A friend offered one he doesn't use any more.


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## Timothybil (Oct 10, 2011)

The go along with the idea of having a bystander 'helping out', why not throw a handfull or two of those 'fauxton' style coin lights. Great for hanging on a nail or somesuch for a small area light or marker, and great for handing out to someone else who really needs a light that you will probably never get back. Just a thought.


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## Burgess (Oct 10, 2011)

to History_Nut --


Welcome to CandlePowerForums !


:welcome:


Gee, you've been a CPF member here fer' 4 years, and this is only* your 3rd Post *!


Truly a man of few words.



_


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## Dean N (Oct 10, 2011)

*Timothybil*, clever idea. Thanks.


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## Dean N (Oct 12, 2011)

*Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

To buy these items, I suppose it is best to go to 4Sevens, the supporting vendor on the Quark, but what about the ZL? Any preferred vendors to support? (For the Logan I am going to Oveready, no question, regardless.)

Also, when ordering from these vendors, anything I should know or "insert" before I click the Pay button? I have looked in the Manufacturers Corner in the CPFMarketPlace, but didn't notice anything. I did find something for BugOutUSA.

Dean


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## whiteoakjoe (Oct 12, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

GoingGear, is the dealer I use the most. Be sure to check out their YouTube site for great demonstrations of all their lights...


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## purelite (Oct 12, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

Hey this is a great thread. I like how everyone has thought about this like I have. 

I am thinking of the G3 set up now , damn you Electron GURU!!!!!! 

I myself have a cpl 18650s and 18500s and I can see how many would say go this route for certain lights. I have never gone thru anything like Katrina but I did have just 1 full day without power this summer from the hurricane. I made some eye opeing discoveries that day in many areas to include lighting. HOGOs comment about runtime when TSHTF is so true. When you actually use a light it will seemingly be eating batteries like a hungry bear.

I went thru my small cache of 18650s before 1/3 of the day was over!!!

The most useful lights for us that day?

1) A small folding 4xAA Energizer lamp that I got for $5 on clearance. I love this little light. It is outdated using 3 or 5mm leds,is all plastic and probably wouldnt survive drop from 2 feet high. It only has 2 settings High and Low. But it is so useful and handy I pray it never breaks or fails. Energizer doesnt make it anymore and thats a shame. I would buy 10 more!! It will run a Loooooong time on low with 4 AAs and the high is brite enough for many tasks. Plus it folds and slips in a pocket. The fold out piece is opaque and as such has a nice floody output 360 degrees
2)the Coleman 4 D collapsing Cree lantern you can get at Walmart. The beam pattern if that is what to call it is horrible with wierd patterns of light and such which detracts from its usefullness. I am thinking of covering it in scotch tape or something to evenit out!!! BUT, with the 4 D batteries it will run for WEEKS on low. How do I know? My kid uses it for a nigh light on low every nite of the week for 8 plus hours a nite and I swear I dont have to replace the batteries for 2 months!!!!! 
It was very handy on the dining room table as a "center" gathering light for everyone and on Mediums was bright enough and adequate for playing cards and such around the table. Would it be good for everything? No. Worked for a regular joe family pretty good though . You gotta love D batteries and more so than AAs in an emergency. Is it a not so great overpriced light? yes but the battery platform and the runtime make it a good compromis. i wont buy another of those and will look for something else for the money for the 2nd one but it gets the job done . Its nice it collapses into itself also for portability also. 

Anyway, it is expensive to stock up on batteries but I am trying to save up to buy a stock of Lithiums in varying sizes for the next 10 years storage. I have seen so many Alkies leak and fail. I would stock those also and use them for the cheaper cost but you cant rely on them for long term emergencies.
Its tru as mentioned the weak link is batteries here. gotts stock up on them primaries and rechargeables

was this enough lighting? Nope and I realized i need more lights especially a good headlamp though I feel like a dork wearing one they are very useful when working on things repairing things and such. But in just one day I discovered how woefully unprepared we are . I cant imaging going days or weeks without power and how can you prepare for that? Its overwhelming to think about!!!


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## davidt1 (Oct 12, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

purelite,

With the right headlamp, you don't have to wear it on your head.

This is how I EDC (almost 24/7) and use my Zebralight headlamp. I am wearing it right now as I type this post.


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## Dean N (Oct 12, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

Thanks, *whitoakjoe*, will do.

*purelight*, I'll look for something "cost effective" like that Energizer lamp you mentioned for our home use, and also some kinda D lantern. I do keep Ds in the house for all my old Mag's.


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## whiteoakjoe (Oct 12, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

"all my old mag's" 
Sounds like you need to pick up some LED upgrade bulbs for these. If you are looking for a emergency light a C or D Mag with an LED bulb type insert is a great tool. I have put 5 one watt bulbs into old D mags and they are a little on the blue side, look to be twice as bright as the incan and run for days.


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## Dean N (Oct 12, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

I did pick up a couple TerraLUX TLE-6EXB MiniStar5 Extreme LEDs to try in a 2D & 3D Mag and was duly impressed. After I bought them I read here about heat issues with larger capacity Mags, though, so I took it out of the 3D. I liked them enough that I bought 4 more for all my other 2-cell Mags, too. I realize these are not the highest quality way to go, but the LED lamps are vastly better than the incandescent lamps. The 2C LED buries the 3D incandescent at teh back of my lot, ~200' back.

I have pondered a Malkoff or Elektro Lumens (still out there??) drop in, but have kinda run out of $$$ for the moment.


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## Ken_McE (Oct 19, 2011)

Dean N said:


> *Area Lighting*: This is the one I need the most help on. I'm thinking about lighting for a multiple casualty triage zone.



Meet my little friend: :huh:

*"Pelican Remote Area Lighting"*


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## MikeAusC (Oct 19, 2011)

Ken_McE said:


> Meet my little friend: :huh:
> 
> *"Pelican Remote Area Lighting"*



This is what the local Police Rescue Squad use.


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## Dean N (Oct 20, 2011)

Yep, I saw those... and then the price! I'm not prepared to spent that much on my personal bags.


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## eh4 (Oct 23, 2011)

The LED lights are so much better now that I have no idea how it really compares, but I have an old CMG Infinity light with a red led, takes a single AA. I've run it repeatedly in power outages hung from the ceiling, lent it to a friend with his power cut off, again hung from the ceiling... I have no idea how long it runs, I never use a new battery with it but use it to kill old AA batteries, which it does a terrible job of, never seems to kill them.
It's the dimmest light that I have but when night adjusted it's just fine for getting around and making sense of the space.
I would hate to try and deal with any sort of time critical emergency situation with such a light, but for extended power outages, or being stuck in a mine or bomb shelter it would shine. Or for just sitting up late with a friend for that matter.
Long running, dim lights are great.

Don't get me wrong, it does kill batteries but I've never noticed a shortage of AA's for it. There's always been a bunch of other things eating batteries and spitting them back up with enough charge for the red led.
I'm looking forward to seeing how the new neutral led AA Zebralight compares to it on low.


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## Dean N (Oct 23, 2011)

eh4 said:


> Long running, dim lights are great.


 Yep, I have a couple lights like that. I don't know why red LEDs last so long... something else to look up, I suppose.


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## tsask (Dec 17, 2011)

TerraLux 2 AA was the first light I added to my CERT kit, then added the AA version. Soon the Dorcy2D incan contained with the kit was soon replaced by an LED version! That orange Streamlight 2AA/2AAA neutral would be another choice. for the $$$ I couldnt beat the TerraLux.
some RED, GREEN filters could also be helpful.
good point mentioned here about CR123s @$5-8 each being available in stores after the D's C's AA AAA are gone


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## pblanch (Dec 17, 2011)

Anyone know if a Xenos E03 would be a good light to finish off the "dead" batteries that other lights cant handle. I haven't run any AA primaries down for a while now (as I mainly use eneloops) and it would be a shame to waste a perfectly good (and expensive) lithium primary (L91) just for this. My PA40W is now my disaster/general purpose light and have a stock of L91's for it but thought maybe would use the "dead" ones in a single AA (that is easily purchasable in Australia) to get a little more out of them. Any thoughts?


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## pblanch (Dec 18, 2011)

Ok well as soon as I posted this I thought what would any self respecting CPF'er do. Well I opted the cheap way with a alkaline that I had after rummaging through the cupboards. I only had a pair of AA's so I stuck 1 into my ZL H51 and ran it till only the L1/L2 where able to be activated (man that thing gets hot with 1.5hr on high). So still had the 2 low levels running fine (and suspect would do so for a long time yet). Stuck it in the Xenos E03 and NOTHING not even a spark of life. I am sure it is not considered a battery vampire but just another reason why I will be keeping my H51 in my bag. I would love to hear from anyone who would have some knowledge in regards to the use of the PA40 and the amount of juice left in their "dead" batteries and if it will work in a H51. 

I know, I am really close to doing this experiment my self but L91's cost $20AUS here so this would be an experiment that is prohibitively expensive for me here. I wouldn't expect anyone else to do it either but am hoping someone has already tried it as Zebra light is quite a respected brand around the forum and would consider a H51 as a fantastic disaster/emergency light (I certainly do, I am a remote locality medic and is what I carry with me when I go out at night).


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## Quiksilver (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

Dean, 

You said you had a SureFire 6P and 9P. Now just pick up a Malkoff M61LL drop-in and you have yourself a great emergency light with a balance of output and runtime. 

You can do some homemade mods to adapt it to AA batteries if necessary, and the 17500s are a bonus although I dont expect to use those cells.

Yes, its a paradox but CR123 cells will be on the shelves of stores long after AAs and D cells have disappeared. Think about it. Father goes in in a panic to pick up some batteries. Why would he grab camera batteries? After all, most people think CR123s are only useful in cameras. 

Hit up a camera store after an emergency and you'll be surprised to find they have an abundance of CR123 cells. Sure they will be expensive, but unlooted as well. Who will loot a camera shop to take batteries? They will be expensive (Camera shops around here sell them for $15 per CR123 battery.)

Also, the SureFire Saint is a good headlamp. It takes a variety of CR123 configurations as well as 2xAA. Yes it takes both types.

Just some more thoughts.


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## Hooked on Fenix (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

If you're still looking for cost effective lights for other people to hold for you or for coworkers to use, check out the Rayovac Indestructible 2AA 100 lumen flashlight at Home Depot for $15. It is a 2 level light, for long runtimes and decent brightness, is drop tested to 30 feet, is rated IPX4 water resistant (not the best obviously), and uses an updated emitter (looked like Cree XP-E or XP-G). It has rubber on both ends and is made of aluminum and titanium (probably 7000 series aluminum by that description). This would be a great low cost option with many uses and it's very hard to beat that price for what you get.


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## michman (Dec 18, 2011)

I think that the H51fw would be the best compromise to meet all of your needs. It will light up a large area, has a fair bit of throw, the tint of the beam would help highlight any blood that is present. It seems to be quite durable, and has (as davidt would attest to) many possible uses beyond that of a standard flashlight.


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## glockboy (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

For area Lighting, I like the Rayovac Sportsman Xtreme 300-Lumen LED Lantern, use 3D battery, it last for a time and bright too, it got a hook so you can hang it up high.
If you want AA, get the Rayovac Sportsman 65-Lumens LED Mini Lantern.


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## Big Sam (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

The fact that AA's are so common is as bad as it is good. Some years back a hurricane was headed up the Chesapeake Bay. A few days before it hit my sister went out to buy some batteries. All of the common ones were gone. All sold out. No AA's. No AAA's, and no D's. She did find some C cells. Don't know about 123's. Since she wanted to ride the hurricane out at home, I loaned her lights and batteries enough to last. She had no C cell lights or 123's. The blessing of using common batteries is also the curse. I agree with the guys that say to plan on recharging batteries as much as possible (from cars). Otherwise use batteries that have the longest life like 123's in lights that give ample burn time. Though I have AA lights and recharge with Eneloops (and would bring them for sure), I'm really taken with the 18650 lights like the SC600 for max versatility and burn time. Bring a couple rechargers since you may not have time to only charge two batteries at a time. For more range and the additional back up use of 123's, I have a couple of TK21's (and others of course). Plan for the worst. Bring what you need and something to share. A bring a box of 123's & L91's just in case all your other plans turn to crap. A D cell and an c cell led light would be a good idea too as others have suggested. My 2 cents worth today.


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## Gregozedobe (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

As Big Sam says, being prepared BEFORE the event is the key. It isn't any use saying AA's are cursed just because stores were sold out of AA batteries when your sister went out to buy some (when a hurricane was coming) - all that says is that your sister was a bit slower than other people to realize the need. Anyone relying on buying anything that is going to be in high demand in an emergency is running the risk that what they want/need will be sold out (this may include water, food, fuel, batteries etc).

Other circumstances may not give you warning and time to stock up at the last minute (earthquakes, tsunamis, long power outages etc) so it is important to be prepared ALL The time.


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## pblanch (Dec 18, 2011)

I have changed the title thread back.

I agree Big Sam and Gregozedobe, that prior planning is the key.

Although I live in Australia where natural disasters are rare event. We still have have them and I am shocked by how many people are unprepared with something as simple as a good flashlight let alone having a backup stash of batteries (or a case of water:shakehead). Many are just so unprepared as the mentality of "oh it will never happen" and "the govt will get it for us" is just plain . Many (all I've ever spoken too) have never heard of the 72 hours until help would arrive theory. 

Just get some long life lithium batteries now (L91 (AA) or the 123's) I have a modest stash of L91's for my lights and also my radio and if nothing happens I can always use them in the other appliances that I own (a couple of years before they expire after I have gotten some new ones). If the powers out you need to know whats going on and you should conserve fuel in the car in case you need to move. They last 10-15 years so stick them in a cool place and forget about them.


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## Samy (Dec 18, 2011)

pblanch said:


> I have changed the title thread back.
> 
> I agree Big Sam and Gregozedobe, that prior planning is the key.
> 
> ...



You must not live in QLD  After what happened 11 month ago, we're gearing up for another big disaster season 

For my emergency power applications all my flashlights (torches for us aussies), my police/fire scanner, my am/fm radio, a couple of small led lanterns etc all run on AAA or AA Eneloops and all have eneloops in them all the time, and are good for 3-4 years or more on standby. I keep 20-30 spare fully charged AA & AAA eneloops in storage which i rotate when a device exhausts the eneloops it's using. 

I have a large 120 am/hr deep cycle caravan/yacht type battery with a fairly large portable solar panel (which still works great when overcast) and it's setup so i can charge my eneloops, mobile phones etc with solar thus not having to rely on a generator and fuel.

I keep a full and a full spare LPG cylinder for gas cooking and a few jerry's of fuel for the cars/bikes and for my dual fuel stove and lanterns.

We don't live in a city and every year the river comes up and isolates us, but usually only for 2-3 days. Since moving here we have had to learn to be self sufficient. Being avid campers also helps out a great deal because we have all the gear stored ready to go.

The only thing holding us back is cold food storage and if this becomes an issue i'll look into it.

cheers


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## Quiksilver (Dec 19, 2011)

pblanch said:


> I have changed the title thread back.
> 
> I agree Big Sam and Gregozedobe, that prior planning is the key.
> 
> ...



Natural disasters seem to happen yearly in Australia ... I agree though, Australia is no different from the rest of the developed world as far as reasonably prepared people are an extreme minority even amongst rural folk. How many farmers have a years worth of food in their house? How many farmers even have variety of crop? Usually they're farming for the money which means every square meter of arable land on the property has one plant, and they have heavy equipment to tend it. How many actually have fruit trees or self-sufficient garden? 

I only knew one farmer that was prepared without knowing it. He had milk cows, and hens for eggs. I used to help spear bales for him on the pastures. 

The farmer next door to him grew one form of grain, I don't know which. Every centimeter of his property was unprocessed grain, almost right up to the house and barn on the corner of the lot. If something happened, he would be just as unprepared as the city folk in the apartments, if not worse off due to isolation.


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## pblanch (Dec 19, 2011)

Hey Samy and Quicksilver, I live in the most isolated city on Earth. Perth (also known as being 10 years behind the rest of the world) Our dam levels are at 28% after a record rain after a drought. The infrastructure is falling to pieces, we sell off all our "natural" gas energy and thus pay through the roof for electricity. The good thing is that we have a temperature winter but the storms occasionally do a lot of damage to houses and infrastructure as no house is designed for tropical cyclones/storms like the good folk in Qld. Bush fires are a big problem here so may need to bug out (to were I don't know) with no warning (even though an early warning system has been recommended by numerous Enquiry's (after loss of life) but still not forthcoming). We are just one step away from FUBA where the Govt will claim Oh we didn't expect this to happen (remember the floods in Brisy) Qld had great leadership at the time lucky you. WA govt is run by crooks (for those O/S google Brian Thomas Burke) and will have nothing but .... we requested federal aid and they still haven't come....its not our fault...let them eat cake hahaha.... you get the idea. Rant over (for now)

My utmost respect for all those whom were unable to leave in the Katrina disaster. I have read everything I could get my hands on with as many aspects of that incident as I can and the cpf forums had some great information that I have myself incorporated into my life.

I have a few weeks worth of food and water and most importantly to this forum light. I will hold out if I can if something happens. I am sure no one wants this thread to turn into a I have this much stuff ect but I think a stockpile of primary batteries is a good idea. The ability to recharge when no electricity should also be considered as well. I have a (discussed a few times on cpf) voltaic amp http://www.voltaicsystems.com/amp.shtml and I love it. The amp's battery fills 2 AA eneloops with no problems and my L91's for backup when the sun isn't shinning. Additionally I use it to recharge all my eneloops as I really like the idea of the suns energy being used to ironically give me light at night. Now to find one of those lights purelite was talking about in a AA format


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## Gregozedobe (Dec 19, 2011)

Samy said:


> The only thing holding us back is cold food storage and if this becomes an issue i'll look into it.



You can get pretty efficient 12v fridges these days, so you could run one off your 12v Battery which is charged by your solar panel.

We also have a stock of dried and canned foods that we rotate through (so it doesn't get stale) - stuff we normally eat anyway. And a 1,000 litre rainwater tank.

I agree about depending on "the govt" to help you out - in a real emergency you need to be able to think and look after yourself. 

We had some bad bushfires go through our city 10 or so years ago, and I was amazed that so many people complained that "no-one" told them to evacuate and they had no warning. We were expecting just what happened, and had packed up and prepared 3 days before the fire came through. There was a fire burning uncontrolled in the forests to our northwest, then the weather people predicted severe heat and strong NW winds. So as any idiot could have forecast, the wind blew the fire into our city. We were very lucky that not many people were killed. Hopefully some will have learnt some valuable lessons from what happened.


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## Samy (Dec 19, 2011)

Fires are the biggest issue for me too, i live on a hill so floods will only isolate me but a bushfire will take the house and everything with it. I expect the fire to take the house so i tend to set my gear up for evacuation. There's no use setting the house up for disaster when i don't expect to save it from bushfire. It helps that i've got a 4wd and camper trailer and try to go camping with self-sufficiency in mind. 

You have to be realistic about what could happen and try to set your self up as best you can. Bushfire, Flood, Hurricane... you can pick one but you'll probably get them all 

cheers


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## Quiksilver (Dec 20, 2011)

Bushfires are definitely a concern ... Do you have a body of water near you? May be worth it to get a little inflatable boat or canoe or something to push into the water in a bush fire, as well as good quality face mask to filter smoke/dust. 

Dont have to know everything about where to go in a bush fire, but one or two steps ahead would be good especially if your family was separated. Everyone knows where to bug out to. Something like a big cricket oval or body of water. 

And be careful with the light. If the power is out for a week or two and you have light, then everyone in the area will see your house. You'll be fighting off the hordes of non-light-endowed who want to get close to your luminous presence. They may try peacefully, coercively or violently.

Regarding the QLD floods ... 

My family is paying $500 per year through forced taxation to rebuild. 

The imbecile dam operators only knew drought for the past decade, so when dams were at 150% capacity they were still in the "save and store water" mindset. Then, when dams reached critical capacity, they had to let a lot out to save the dams, which coincided with monsoon rains. This caused parts of the city to flood. 

On top of that, all the stuff that got flooded is on a flood plain. Only idiots build on a flood plain, and only an idiot government forces me to pay for those idiots to rebuild on the flood plain. 

While yes, it was good that so few got hurt/killed during the floods, its a series of policy ignorance that has led this.


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## pblanch (Dec 20, 2011)

Back to Emergency lighting....I found that a chapstick cap fits nicely over my Preon 1+2 for some low level lighting goodness. 

I have a bunch of AAA's that sit around doing nothing. Time for them to earn their keep.


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## purelite (Dec 21, 2011)

Thanx for the link to that solar charger Pblanch. That is a slick piece of gear . Price isnt too bad. It looks really well thought out.

Good points about using your lighting also. Light can be seen for miles in some situations. If you are "Mr. Prepared" you are also a prime target for the "Unprepared" desperate others . And your brightly lit campsite or home is a neon sign drawing them in like bugs. 

Any one been thinking about how you deal with this threat? How would you safely use your lighting without drawing undo attention to yourself?


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## eh4 (Dec 21, 2011)

PoLow profile? Use very long running, dim red lighting. Put up black out curtains and have a specific area that you set up for using brighter light, fire that area up brightest and go outside for an hour in the dark to let your eyes adjust before you check for light spillage. your white lights need to be able to ramp from dim to bright and get in the habit of using the least amount of light necessary. in most situations being low key would be more important than being "undetectable". people will revert to more natural community standards of fairness in emergencies, so either don't bring it out unless you brought enough for the whole class, or be prepared to become the new service provider, realizing that if it doesn't work out well your utility might well become "nationalized".


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## Denfer (Dec 23, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

Hi Dean ... I've tried various combinations ... I've worked (govt) through several disasters (Santa Cruz flood-'82, Loma Prieta, Sierra blizzards) ... I have a combination of lights for different uses: D-Cell led lanterns (coast or similar w-100 hr runtimes and low setting capable), maglites (2&3 D) w/malkoff dropins (6-hr runtime, 24 to full drain) + optical-plastic lens + xtreme-cap (knob type w-toolsteel-glassbreaker + $13 aluminum SMO reflector from Kaidomain (S006165) ... I've recently added the 9AA/3D OddModds adaptor in the 3.5/4.6 configuration to allow use of 9 Energizer L91 AA batteries (this allows you to store the light in a trunk or home and forget it for years without leakage or low-power issues, and allows for use of different battery types, it also makes the light very light weight). At work we have been trying out the "Light-For-Life" 270 lumen 'battery-less' flashlights (vehicles and desks) since they will fully recharge from a cigarette lighter, or plug in, in 60-seconds. They are a very interesting option since they use some type of capacitor and can be very quickly charged to full for about an hour runtime. It's also important to consider post-disaster needs if you may encounter an explosive atmosphere (confined spaces)... in that circumstance the light would need to be intrinsically safe (no ignition sources) ... see lightboxes, etc.

I can say that the Malkoff mag dropins easily outperform all of the dropins that we tested (A/B) for throw and light intensity. Interestingly, some of the competing mag bulbs/dropins rated at 800+ lumens, were a dismal second to the Malkoff dropins rated at ~ 270 lumens ... go figure !! I've become a die-hard admirer of the Malkoff dropins because they are solidly built and outperform for emergency use. My advice here is to build your emergency equip step-by-step, don't buy Lamborini's, just try to buy very-good quality that performs well and gives excellent runtime. 

Last, but not least, I have found that for home, on the different floor-levels, the DATEXX "Sentina" smart rechargeable wall plug-in lights are absolutely fantastic ... very very long lived (never have had one go bad) ... they provide very sufficient light to see-by/evacuate ... they can be set for motion sensing and power-outage-auto-lighting, and have worked fantastically during winter outages, night-trips to the restroom, and/or earthquakes/disasters. Keep equipment as a long-term goal ... budget over time with a few 'foundation' solid lights ... I like the option for lithiums - no corrosion/leakage, and easily 10+ years storage at close to full power. Your "rechargeables" are of course an excellent way to go.

Best R's
- Den


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## Burgess (Dec 23, 2011)

eh4 said:


> . . . . and get in the habit of using the least amount of light necessary.




This is always good advice !


No need to blast away with 50-100 Lumens, when 1 or 2 will be sufficient.






Try it.

Make it a habit.

Get *comfortable* doing this.


You may find it to be an Eye-Opening experience.


Literally.


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## Quiksilver (Dec 23, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*



Big Sam said:


> The fact that AA's are so common is as bad as it is good. Some years back a hurricane was headed up the Chesapeake Bay. A few days before it hit my sister went out to buy some batteries. All of the common ones were gone. All sold out. No AA's. No AAA's, and no D's. She did find some C cells. Don't know about 123's. Since she wanted to ride the hurricane out at home, I loaned her lights and batteries enough to last. She had no C cell lights or 123's. The blessing of using common batteries is also the curse. I agree with the guys that say to plan on recharging batteries as much as possible (from cars). Otherwise use batteries that have the longest life like 123's in lights that give ample burn time. Though I have AA lights and recharge with Eneloops (and would bring them for sure), I'm really taken with the 18650 lights like the SC600 for max versatility and burn time. Bring a couple rechargers since you may not have time to only charge two batteries at a time. For more range and the additional back up use of 123's, I have a couple of TK21's (and others of course). Plan for the worst. Bring what you need and something to share. A bring a box of 123's & L91's just in case all your other plans turn to crap. A D cell and an c cell led light would be a good idea too as others have suggested. My 2 cents worth today.



I've been preaching this for years, brother!

AA batteries are fine to use and easy to find while there is a supply line for them.

Once that supply line stops, the high demand for AA batteries will deplete the existing supply rapidly.

If you're using CR123, the demand is EXCEEDINGLY low (at least in my place) unless you're a keen photographer in a long-term disaster. All those camera shops and specialty electronics shops will have CR123 batteries long after the last AA departs. Why would anyone with a AA or D light (99.99% of public) pick up those 'funny-looking' short batteries that don't fit any of their stuff? 

Granted the overall supply of CR123 is not as prolific as AA, however the supply is enough for the few people that will be using them. 

Also, call me crazy, but I did a little hunting last year and found all the warehouses, battery stores, electronics shops, etc in my area... Anywhere that probably has CR123 cells or even AA ... And I put pinpoints on a map of the area I have.

If anything goes down and looks like it ain't coming back up, I'll be keeping a keen eye on those warehouses and buildings. If they look deserted, I'll be moving in to take what I need. 

Personally I recommend:

- Keeping a supply of AA batteries for barter. Need a can of beans? Someone probably needs a pair of AA batteries. Very useful to have your own hidden stock of AA.

- Use a light that runs on a less-common cell such as CR123. People who have them likely have no use for them and thus the barter price would be lower. Also, due to lower demand, long after the twinkies and candies have been pillaged from gas stations, you'll probably be able to find a few CR123 cells left on the rack... No one takes the funny-lookin cells.


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## GaAslamp (Dec 24, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*



eh4 said:


> The LED lights are so much better now that I have no idea how it really compares, but I have an old CMG Infinity light with a red led, takes a single AA. I've run it repeatedly in power outages hung from the ceiling, lent it to a friend with his power cut off, again hung from the ceiling... I have no idea how long it runs, I never use a new battery with it but use it to kill old AA batteries, which it does a terrible job of, never seems to kill them.
> ...
> There's always been a bunch of other things eating batteries and spitting them back up with enough charge for the red led.
> I'm looking forward to seeing how the new neutral led AA Zebralight compares to it on low.



It would be difficult for the ZebraLight to match it--that could only happen if the CMG Infinity's boost circuit were fairly inefficient, which does not appear to be the case. Among regulated white LED flashlights, however, the SC51/H51 series should be among the best--if not THE best--at draining single AAs because they do have exceptionally efficient circuits.



Dean N said:


> Yep, I have a couple lights like that. I don't know why red LEDs last so long... something else to look up, I suppose.



It must have something to do with the inherently lower minimum forward voltage of red LEDs (as low as 1.7V), which in turn probably has something to do with the lower energy level of red photons. Typical white LEDs are actually based on high-intensity blue LED dies, which require a significantly higher voltage to light up at all. Obviously it is easier to boost nearly-dead cells to a lower voltage than a higher one, which helps red LED flashlights drain more energy from the cells than white LED flashlights can, and therefore run for longer, all else being equal.



tsask said:


> good point mentioned here about CR123s @$5-8 each being available in stores after the D's C's AA AAA are gone



That's in the context of finding batteries in stores during an emergency, however--scrounging batteries from other devices at home and even other people is another matter.



pblanch said:


> Ok well as soon as I posted this I thought what would any self respecting CPF'er do. Well I opted the cheap way with a alkaline that I had after rummaging through the cupboards. I only had a pair of AA's so I stuck 1 into my ZL H51 and ran it till only the L1/L2 where able to be activated (man that thing gets hot with 1.5hr on high). So still had the 2 low levels running fine (and suspect would do so for a long time yet). Stuck it in the Xenos E03 and NOTHING not even a spark of life. I am sure it is not considered a battery vampire but just another reason why I will be keeping my H51 in my bag. I would love to hear from anyone who would have some knowledge in regards to the use of the PA40 and the amount of juice left in their "dead" batteries and if it will work in a H51.



I've not done any serious testing because I don't want to risk having a battery leak from being completely drained, but I can say from experience that the H51 is really good at draining batteries for what it is, which is a regulated white LED 1xAA flashlight. Other types of flashlight (e.g. unregulated, multiple cells, red LED, etc.) may potentially do even better, but nevertheless I think the H51 is a great choice for emergencies (and lots of other things). By the way, one hint as to its efficiency is that it can hold regulation on an alkaline cell at the second-highest output level--H2, which is 140 lumens with the cool white model--for over half an hour, while most 1xAA flashlights cannot hold regulation on an alkaline cell at all when their output is anywhere near 100 lumens. oo:



pblanch said:


> I know, I am really close to doing this experiment my self but L91's cost $20AUS here so this would be an experiment that is prohibitively expensive for me here. I wouldn't expect anyone else to do it either but am hoping someone has already tried it as Zebra light is quite a respected brand around the forum and would consider a H51 as a fantastic disaster/emergency light (I certainly do, I am a remote locality medic and is what I carry with me when I go out at night).



I haven't done any formal testing, but one thing I'd like to point out is that it's actually easier to completely kill an L91 than an alkaline cell. L91s don't regulate as well as eneloops on H1, but will run for substantially longer on all modes--this and their other qualities make them great for some uses, including long-term backup. However, it is possible to run an L91 down so low on the high and medium modes that hardly any energy remains even for the low modes. In comparison, eneloops will step down to lower modes sooner and more abruptly, but they will usually have more energy available for the lower modes afterward. Wimpy alkalines weaken quickly on the higher modes, but seem to linger forever on the low modes, especially if you let them rest every so often. But run an L91 long enough even on M1 or M2, and it can and sometimes will DIE there--I mean dead as a doornail, no juice left even for L2. I'm not sure whether this is an H51 thing or a lithium thing or a combination of both, but I've seen a couple of CR123As die like that, too (in other flashlights).


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## Gregozedobe (Dec 24, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

I also found that my ZL H51 was an excellent battery vampire - my 2nd best in fact. Doesn't mean I'd be rushing to put almost dead alkalines in it, too much risk of leakage and damage.

My best battery vampire is a real cheapy from Windeal on ebay - it was still glowing (not brightly, but usably), when I pulled the battery out and it was showing 0.26v on my dmm.


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## eh4 (Dec 25, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

I've been playing with Zebralight H51Fc for a couple of weeks now and I've managed to get a brief flash on low with it using a dead battery that won't fire the old red CMG Infinity at all. I'm impressed.

Gregozedobe I'm curious what the make/model of your cheapy battery vampire?


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## GaAslamp (Dec 25, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*



Burgess said:


> This is always good advice !
> 
> 
> No need to blast away with 50-100 Lumens, when 1 or 2 will be sufficient.



Very true--for most tasks, especially under dark conditions, a couple of lumens is quite enough whether we need to conserve or not, and even 1/10 of that or less can often suffice.



eh4 said:


> I've been playing with Zebralight H51Fc for a couple of weeks now and I've managed to get a brief flash on low with it using a dead battery that won't fire the old red CMG Infinity at all. I'm impressed.



That IS impressive! oo: Frankly, I wouldn't have expected this, as red LED flashlights have a clear theoretical advantage in this respect, but obviously in practice there are a lot of other factors involved. The H51/SC51 series circuit must be really, really efficient (and the same circuit would have an advantage with red LEDs, by the way).


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## Gregozedobe (Dec 26, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*



eh4 said:


> Gregozedobe I'm curious what the make/model of your cheapy battery vampire?


It is labelled as: "Powerlight HX-G011 3W LED", ebay item # 140571826345 I'd have given you the link to make it easier, but that seems to be a no-no these days, especially for cheap lights. After a quick bit of google-fu they seem to be available from other (ahem) budget light sellers as well (Dx DD). All in all, a very cheap ($2.20 delivered) light that produces usable illumination that is ideal for "I don't really care what happens after I have gifted it" giveaways, and if a leaking alakaline kills it then not too many tears lost.



GaAslamp said:


> The H51/SC51 series circuit must be really, really efficient (and the same circuit would have an advantage with red LEDs, by the way).


Note that not all ZL AA lights are equal performers in this respect. Based on my testing using a very depleted alakline AA, my Mk I H51 (GITD ring, no clip) is noticeably better than my SC51, SC51c and H501 (old model). Of course it may just be the LED in this particular light has a lower than average vf.


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## eh4 (Dec 26, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

ok, I'm still up and just read your replies, Merry Boxing Day all. 

Gregozedobe thanks for the recollection, it worked fine. I'm saving that search result but I'm also hoping that's not a fluke. It makes me wonder if technology wise there wasn't a thing that happened where the electronics tech exceeded the leds for a time before led tech exploded and efficient circuitry was scrapped for more powerful designs that could utilize the newer, more capable leds. ...And now there's lots of really well made, outdated circuitry out there in some really cheap electronics, subject to their quality of assembly of course. Just an outside view not knowing the particular realities of electronic design, I assume I'm missing some things.

GaAslamp, I double checked that with the same battery (saved it because I thought it was cool) and I Was Wrong.
The initial flash that I described is some capacitor thing in the light itself....... 
(drum roll)
The battery will do much more than make a flash, it will tolerate being turned on to Med level with a double click (first click defaults to High with a momentary flash, second of double click sets level at Medium.) There is a brief flash, three or four seconds of dimmer brightness and then it goes into a flickering low. Minutes later typing this the light is still emitting a sickly dim flickering glow, the light dimming briefly about 8 times per second.
I put the battery in the old CMG right before trying the H51Fc to give the CMG more of a chance, nothing though.
I have run batteries down in the CMG to where the head came off with a high pressure pop before (more than 2 atmospheres I wager, definitely not worried about the CMG water tightness with it's 12+ years old o-rings).
Test is over now, been typing slowly for the last 5 minutes or so and I turned it off and it wouldn't turn back on. 
Battery reads at .61v. 
I got another flash out of it, but now there is nothing, I'll bet I could get another few minutes of sickly flickering out of it tomorrow.

Also just as Gregozedobe mentioned that the ZL led might have a lower vf (I don't know that term yet) another variable is of course that this particular CMG might be Less efficient than an average Red CMG for whatever reason.
But I'll bet that the circuitry is just that much better, coupled with a nice led... too cool.
Now if it'll just last as long as the CMG has I'll really be impressed, hope I outlast both of them. ;-)


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## Gregozedobe (Dec 26, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*



eh4 said:


> ...... the ZL led might have a lower vf (I don't know that term yet)



I'm not that up on the techo side myself, but my understanding is that Vf (forward voltage) is the voltage that a particular LED needs to light up properly. From what I remember white leds usually take more voltage than red leds to fire up, which is why lights with red leds have a reputation as being good battery vampires. 

The efficiency of the boost converter needed to boost the single cell battery voltage sufficient to run a led is the most significant factor in a good battery vampire. I have an idea that some boost converters use more current to run themselves than others do, and at low light levels this can be more current than they actually supply to the led. 

ZL has a reputation as having some of the best boost converters around, which is why they get such good results from their x51xx series of AA lights.


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## GaAslamp (Dec 26, 2011)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*



Gregozedobe said:


> Note that not all ZL AA lights are equal performers in this respect. Based on my testing using a very depleted alakline AA, my Mk I H51 (GITD ring, no clip) is noticeably better than my SC51, SC51c and H501 (old model). Of course it may just be the LED in this particular light has a lower than average vf.



That's probably it. The Luxeon Rebel used in the ZebraLight "c" models, for example, has a typical Vf of 3.0 V at 350 mA, a minimum of 2.55 V, and a maximum of 3.99 V, which is a pretty wide range, I think. The Vf range for the CREE XP-G used in the other models isn't given in the data sheet, but the typical voltages are identical, so it's quite possible for one particular LED, regardless of whether it's an XP-G or Rebel, to have a meaningfully lower Vf than another. LEDs will vary in overall output efficiency as well, but not as much as they do in the minimum voltage required to get any light out of them at all, apparently.



eh4 said:


> GaAslamp, I double checked that with the same battery (saved it because I thought it was cool) and I Was Wrong.
> The initial flash that I described is some capacitor thing in the light itself.......
> (drum roll)
> The battery will do much more than make a flash, it will tolerate being turned on to Med level with a double click (first click defaults to High with a momentary flash, second of double click sets level at Medium.) There is a brief flash, three or four seconds of dimmer brightness and then it goes into a flickering low. Minutes later typing this the light is still emitting a sickly dim flickering glow, the light dimming briefly about 8 times per second.
> I put the battery in the old CMG right before trying the H51Fc to give the CMG more of a chance, nothing though.



Even more WOW! oo: Or maybe the boost circuit in the CMG is not nearly as efficient as we had suspected.



eh4 said:


> Also just as Gregozedobe mentioned that the ZL led might have a lower vf (I don't know that term yet) another variable is of course that this particular CMG might be Less efficient than an average Red CMG for whatever reason.



That's a possibility with regard to the red LED. For comparison, the usual Vf range for these is 1.6-2.0 V versus the 2.55-3.99 V range given for the Rebel LXM3-PW51 LED used in your H51Fc. If your red LED's Vf is 2.0 and your white LED's Vf is 2.55, for example, then the superior efficiency of the H51Fc can make up the difference, although the red LED is still inherently easier to light up. I was already somewhat surprised that your H51Fc lit up at all, but being able to run on Medium even for a moment is even more impressive. :twothumbs



Gregozedobe said:


> I'm not that up on the techo side myself, but my understanding is that Vf (forward voltage) is the voltage that a particular LED needs to light up properly. From what I remember white leds usually take more voltage than red leds to fire up, which is why lights with red leds have a reputation as being good battery vampires.



As pointed out above, red LEDs are still easier to light up, although the difference is not quite as pronounced as I had initially believed (on the average, yes, but not at the adjacent extremes).


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## StarHalo (Feb 26, 2012)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*



synersol said:


> What do you think of these personnel beacons, www.triagelights.com ?



What would you do with it?


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## Burgess (Feb 27, 2012)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

to synersol --


One additional question, if you please . . . .

Are you *connected* to the Seller/Manufacturer ? ? ?



I notice yer' CPF Username is suspiciously similar to the Maker of those devices.







Oh, by the way -- Welcome to CandlePowerForums !

:welcome:
_


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## AZPops (Feb 27, 2012)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

Light sticks are use quite often in the construction industry e.g. when concrete companies have a major pour at a project (like the one I was on) thats a mile an a half from the paved road. They'd use then by the dozens to mark the way into and out of the project. These pours would start at 22/23:00 thru 06/08:00.

So it would be a use to hang one on someone you're trying to keep tabs on in zero to low light conditions.


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## Tjin (Feb 27, 2012)

I think you are looking at the wrong priorities here. In a SAR situation your priority are:

- Your own safety: ATEX certified lights, so you will not blow your self up near flamable gasses. 
- Lights should be dependable. Crush, water, dustproof. (IP 8 or higher)
- Lights should have a bright colour, to ease finding.
- Lights should not roll away, when putting it down.
- Lights should be big enough and have large buttons/switches so it can be used with gloves. 
- Light batteries should be standarized with your supply chain. (AA, C, D's)

Lights that comply with these standards are usually the Peli, UK, etc style lights. 

Other things to be aware of: Do not stick a light in your mouth! Use a Headlight or angle light on you clothing. 

Remeber you said you want SAR light. So don't think like a flashoholic. Think practical. You don't need multiple settings from fancy lights. Stop playing with light settings when search, you got beter things to do. Don't get 18650 cells if you every want to depend on supplychain. Keywords are Simple, rugged and practical.

All you need on a person are:
- A good headlight/angle light, depening on your clothing/helmet setup.
- Large handheld flashlight for bright purposes.
- Smaller flashlight for close up work.


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## DM51 (Feb 27, 2012)

@ synersol: 4 of your posts (one here, the others elsewhere) have been deleted. 

Shill posts are not acceptable. You need to read the CPF/CPFMP Advertising Policies if you wish to continue posting here.


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## synersol (Feb 27, 2012)

Sorry about this, I was just providing information relative to the discussion. You define Shill in the following manner "For the purposes of this policy, a "shill" is defined as _"a person who poses as a customer in order to decoy others into participating and/or one who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest or personal profit,"_.

1. I never posed as a customer, I just suggested a new product that I happen to use, manufacture, sell and developed. I did not write the case study or paid anyone to do the case study that was mentioned in the response. The case study was from an unrelated third party and the link was not a link to my website. I only posted to contribute new information that may be of interest to the folks who have participated in this topic. 

2. Please specify what I wrote that was not acceptable so that I do not make the same mistake or cause the same misunderstanding again. I would be happy to state I am the "inventor/manufacture" before any post if this would help.

3. I look forward to continue to be part of this forum. I have found it informative.


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## DM51 (Feb 27, 2012)

synersol said:


> Sorry about this, I was just providing information relative to the discussion.


Your connection with the manufacturer was unclear - see Burgess's post #72 above. 

You made 8 posts, 4 of which I deleted; they were unsolicited promotional posts, advertising a particular product. It didn't matter at that stage whether you were the manufacturer or someone acting for him; both of these methods of advertising are prohibited by Rule 6.

Your other four posts were left, as they were made in response to specific enquiries by other members; you were therefore given the benefit of the doubt on these. 

You have now clarified your connection with the company you were promoting; that is fine, but before you proceed with any further posts here, you need to read the CPF/CPFMP Advertising Policies, as I mentioned above.


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## synersol (Feb 28, 2012)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

Basically replace chemical lights and use for any number of different signalling purposes, including low light illumination. Folks are using them for a bunch of outdoor activities from hunting to diving. A really cool article on their sporting applications can be found at the Yakangler website (make sure to scroll down and read the comments). Here is the link:http://www.yakangler.com/articles/news/new-products/other/item/496-e/t-lights . Let me know if you would like to know how SWAT and the military are utilizing them.


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## synersol (Feb 28, 2012)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

Thanks for the welcome, I am glad I learned about this forum. It seems to be very active and informative. To answer your question I am the inventor and manufacturer of the E/T Lights.


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## synersol (Feb 28, 2012)

*Re: Where to but Quark AA2-T & Zebralight H51F*

Hello AZPops, the use you suggested is one of many uses they could be used for and thanks for the input. They transition from one task to another very easily and are very durable. The military is actually using them as friend or foe identifiers as one of the applications. Turns out these do not wash out your NVG's like other IR beacons in the market.


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## synersol (Feb 28, 2012)

Thanks for the prompt reply DM51. I went ahead and responded to the comments that followed Burgess's post #72. Thanks for pointing it out. I appreciate you leaving the other posts and am glad to be a member of this forum. I will carefully read the advertising policies and will comply to the rules.


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## synersol (Feb 28, 2012)

Hello Tjin, thanks for the input and you are correct about the priorities. Luckily the lights meet all of them.

1. Your Own Safety - Notice that the lights electronics are encapsulated and sealed inside a 66ft water pressure seal. 
2. Dependable, crush, etc.. - They are. They are currently being used in combat and have been subjected to extreme testing by the US Military and several foreign military's. Following is a brief run through of the tests done by a Flashlight Enthusiast and expert. (Dropped it hundreds of times, placed it in a washing machine for 45 minutes, placed it in a drying machine for over 30 minutes, froze it in a freezer, then froze it in dry ice (down to -109F), then dropped it and waited for it to turn back on, then placed it in boiling water, attached it to the bumper and drove with it bouncing around for 1 km. Finally lost the light. I sent a second one for testing and all the tests were repeated plus tested the magnetic end cap and it stayed when placed on the hood of the car or on the side window panel of the car. Further the light was then taken to the Ocean down to 30 meters for 30 minutes, 20 meters for 30 minutes and 18 meters for 45 minutes with no issues. The user then placed them in a running stream for 3 days and they still functioned properly. At the end decided to run them over on grass and the lights survived. He then ran over them on concrete and he broke the light but then proceeded to use a piece of foil paper and brought two of four LED's back on for days. 
3. Bright colors - There are four bright colors in each device. The Yakangler article I mentioned in another post confirms 3/4 of a mile visibility. Bright enough for medics and support to find you but not bright enough to give away a units position from a great distance or wash out your NVG's.
4. Lights should not roll away- That is why there is an optional cross bottomed magnetic end cap. Basically you can do the following, Stand them for expedited landing zones, throw/drop them and they will stay in the throw/drop area because of the cross bottom(it stops it from rolling), you can clip them if desired and you can magnetically attach them for clear roomed indicators to door hinges, switch plates, etc...
5. Use with gloves - that was one of the requirements given by the JSOC unit I developed the lights for. that is the reason for the notch above the switch area. You can easily find it and access all light functions, even blind while wearing standard flight gloves.
6. Batteries - The CR2 is part of the supply chain. In fact it was selected by the military unit who the lights were originally designed for.

Regarding the comment about thinking practical. I agree and that is one of the reasons this light was created. Why carry four or more bags of different colored chemical lights. With these lights you reduce the chemical light stick budget by over 90%, you reduce weight and volume carried by the responder by over 60%, when using lights for triage you reduce patient collection times by over 30% and reduce patient collection errors from 4 errors down to 1 error. You have a single tool that has many varied applications and uses. Some Sheriffs down in South Texas use to send rescue teams after rescue teams when responding to calls in ranches (they get lost). Now they throw the lights along the ranch road and everyone else follows. The "keep it simple and practical" statement is the reason we have so many versions. If you want only IR with two clicks you have that option, if you want simply R/Y/G/B with no flashes you have that option, if you want to have 15 different flash/color settings you can do that also but with a different version. 

I look forward to hearing from you soon and thanks for taking the time to contribute.


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## Tjin (Feb 28, 2012)

I was not actually talking about a particulair light, but about a SAR light in general. Not a 'combat' light. 

1. Waterproof does not equal a ATEX certification. ATEX certification does usually indirectly means waterproof.
3. With bright coloured, i mean the body. Putting down a flashlight on a heap or dibris and finding it back. 
5. Heavy duty working gloves are not like combat gloves. i do mean BIG buttons/switches. Most lights are not easily operated with heavy duty working gloves/ fire fighting gloves.
6. In SAR conditions CR2, seams to me like a awfull choice to me.


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## synersol (Feb 29, 2012)

Good stuff!!


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