# My quest for the perfect flood-to-throw > 400Lmns



## MoreGooder (Jan 1, 2010)

I discovered a new and inexpensive hobby over the holidays, and am well on my way in to being a flashaholic. At least it's less expensive than my previous hobby, water cooled gaming rigs.

Anyway, I'll get to the point now:

I found a few flood-to-throw flashlights at various websites. Of course, these use aspherical lenses, and they're all roughly the same size and aluminum in construction:

MXDL FL-SA-28

DX sku.26342

and lastly, 

DX Sku 18697 (This one I currently have, and have swapped out the LED with a Cree XR-E R2).

Now, what I want to do is maximize the potential of each one of these babies. I want to get the most lumens that can be handled _thermally_ by the flashlight body.

The R2 I have in the 18697 sku is on an aluminum circuit board, which I have thermally coupled to the case via a layer of Artic Silver 5 thermal compound. After leaving the directly driven R2 running from three fresh AAA Ni-MH's until pretty dim (about 2 hrs), checking periodically, the flashlight case never exceded what I would call barely warmer than my hand. From this test I conclude sku 18697 and others like it are capable of dumping more heat load than what this R2 DD arrangement generates.

Today, I discovered the Cree XP-G, and have two 20mm stars on order from Cutter. I also have a Cree XLamp MC-E K0-WG from DX that I'd like to play with, though I know it won't be ideal to use with an aspherical lens.

On top of all of this, I ordered various 17mm driver boards that I'm going to play with from KD and DX. None of them have arrived yet.

I'm hoping that if I can pump about 750mA thru a XP-G R5 I might hit a home run

SO..... you may be asking, "What's the point to this thread?"

I've used the search forum feature and haven't found ANY threads for a DIY/MOD flood to throw project. I want to know if I'm the only one interested an an optimized and small flood-to-throw style flashlight, and perhaps drum up some interest in this line of approach.

And, if all goes well, I'll use this same thread as a progress report with loads of nice pictures, current readings and beam shots.

This is going to be fun. Starting a new and relatively inexpensive hobby was one of my New Years resolutions and I believe I have found it!

MoreGooder


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## AlexGT (Jan 2, 2010)

google aspheric


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## Linger (Jan 2, 2010)

:welcome:
A key factor in the aspheric light is the intensity of the light, how many lumens per smallest area. The r2 really works well here. The mc-e doesn't. Infact increasing the surface area too much and the emitter begins falling outside of the focal area and the projected light at distance falls off quickly. Unless a larger aspheric is used (+50mm?).
Therefore, the xpg may be an excellent emitter for the flood-to-zoom, but its also possible the r2 throws farther because its smaller die size, focused, produces a more concentrated beam.
Best of luck!

Oh, cautionary point - many of these 'cheap' lights have poor thermal paths, so an acceptable body tempurature doesn't mean the emitter isn't cooking. FYI - usually just a thin ledge of contact, and no thermal paste, between a the led engine (the star mount) and the body is really something you should look to improve upon when you open these up. Take a look at any of the [email protected] custom heatsinks (a few ounces of aluminium) to get an idea of how much contact people are using for the more powerful lights.

Best,
Linger


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## AndrewP (Jan 2, 2010)

MoreGooder said:


> I discovered a new and inexpensive hobby over the holidays, and am well on my way in to being a flashaholic. At least it's less expensive than my previous hobby, water cooled gaming rigs.
> 
> Anyway, I'll get to the point now:
> 
> ...


 
My cats name is mittens.....


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## Paul Baldwin (Jan 2, 2010)

Hi,
what Linger says about the xpg compared to the xre is spot on. I've converted a few of the C30's to Q5 and R2 and have just done an xpg mod with an R4 using a kd 2 mode driver. It's 800mA on high and nice and bright on flood but the focused image of the die is substantially bigger than the xre so it doesnt throw anywhere near as far. This may be usefull depending on requirements tho?
This thread has a few mods I think may interest you. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/245266
I've been keeping a look out for larger focusing torches that are cheap but havent seen one as yet, can't understand it really as I find them very versatile. A small focusing sst50/90 would be great 

Paul.


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## moviles (Jan 2, 2010)

with the xp-g you dont will get more throw power

the only way to get more throw power in this size its with bigger lens

the body of some of these flashlights is of 33mm and all these flashlights utilize aspheric lens of only 21mm 

I have bought a lens of 28mm to put it to him to these flashlights but yet has not arrived


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## MoreGooder (Jan 2, 2010)

AndrewP said:


> My cats name is mittens.....


 LOL.....
Alrighty then.


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## MoreGooder (Jan 2, 2010)

I ordered a bunch of lenses from DX last night too, and that appears to be the same host that is linked first in my original post.

BTW, I'm less concerned about throw performance than I am about an incredible flood performance. My notion of a good flashlight is one that will adequately illuminate my entire area of interest without a crazy bright hot-spot that obscures objets of interest in its vacinity. Frankly, I get no thrill out of lighting up a particular branch of a tree on a distant hill. I'd rather see my path to the tree safely.

I currently use my flood-to-throw in flood mode far more often than throw mode. The only time I put it into throw position is for demonstration purposes.


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## MoreGooder (Jan 2, 2010)

Paul Baldwin said:


> Hi,
> what Linger says about the xpg compared to the xre is spot on. I've converted a few of the C30's to Q5 and R2 and have just done an xpg mod with an R4 using a kd 2 mode driver. It's 800mA on high and nice and bright on flood but the focused image of the die is substantially bigger than the xre so it doesnt throw anywhere near as far. This may be usefull depending on requirements tho?
> This thread has a few mods I think may interest you. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/245266
> I've been keeping a look out for larger focusing torches that are cheap but havent seen one as yet, can't understand it really as I find them very versatile. A small focusing sst50/90 would be great
> ...


 
THanks for the excellent post, Paul!

Oh, and a small focused sst50/90 would be extremely dangerous to a nearby retna-using creature, wouldn't it? Let's be careful out there! We don't want our powerful LEDs to go the way of the powerful laser pointers, do we?


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## MoreGooder (Jan 2, 2010)

Linger said:


> :welcome:
> A key factor in the aspheric light is the intensity of the light, how many lumens per smallest area. The r2 really works well here. The mc-e doesn't. Infact increasing the surface area too much and the emitter begins falling outside of the focal area and the projected light at distance falls off quickly. Unless a larger aspheric is used (+50mm?).
> Therefore, the xpg may be an excellent emitter for the flood-to-zoom, but its also possible the r2 throws farther because its smaller die size, focused, produces a more concentrated beam.
> Best of luck!
> ...


 
Very good points! And, thanks for the welcome!

So, assuming that I see a gap underneath a mounted emitter, how would one improve the thermal contact with the board without de-soldering it? Desoldering it would be a risk on several levels: Destruction due to overheating, loss of planarity with the circuit board (from a positioning point of view I mean) and loss of proper centering to the aspherical lens in the host.

Can one hope to squeeze thermal paste underneath? Any paste capable of that feat would necessitate a very low viscosity, and probably not a particularly good thermal conductor.... or even a "paste" for that matter!


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## Paul Baldwin (Jan 2, 2010)

Very true but you know it'll happen anyway eventually. The reason I bought an X2000 was primarily for rabbiting with a scope. The range is great but similiar range with a larger hotspot would be better, then you have the flood option for the walk home. I also use the torch for work where the flood again comes in usefull. I inspect electrical installations/fuseboards etc so you dont need a hotspot detracting from your view. Then again, if you are using ceiling bounce in a small cupoard so you can work hands free the zoomed in beam works better as you can work closer to it without being blinded by it.
To be honest I don't know why more manufacturers haven't jumped on the wagon yet.


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## MoreGooder (Jan 2, 2010)

*Linger,*
I just realized what you're referring to, and you're absolutely RIGHT about that ledge!

I have access to an excellent machine shop. Perhaps I can design a custom copper plate that could be slip-fitted into the pill and secured with a couple of tiny set screws.


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## Paul Baldwin (Jan 2, 2010)

MoreGooder said:


> *Linger,*
> I just realized what you're referring to, and you're absolutely RIGHT about that ledge!
> 
> I have access to an excellent machine shop. Perhaps I can design a custom copper plate that could be slip-fitted into the pill and secured with a couple of tiny set screws.



Sounds like a plan! Wish I still had access to an excellent machine shop


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## MoreGooder (Jan 2, 2010)

moviles said:


> with the xp-g you dont will get more throw power
> 
> the only way to get more throw power in this size its with bigger lens
> 
> ...


 
Oh, and BTW, the one I have now, sku 18697, appears to have a 30 mm overall diameter lens, but I can't actually measure it accurately without calipers.


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## rmteo (Jan 2, 2010)

MoreGooder said:


> Oh, and BTW, the one I have now, sku 18697, appears to have a 30 mm overall diameter lens, but I can't actually measure it accurately without calipers.



The actual (aka effective) diameter of the lens, excluding the rim/flange, is 21mm.


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## Linger (Jan 2, 2010)

Brilliant, well done.


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## TorchBoy (Jan 2, 2010)

*Re: My quest for the perfect flood-to-throw > 400 lm*



MoreGooder said:


> Oh, and BTW, the one I have now, sku 18697, ...


I too have a C30 - great spotter, and zoomed out to its wide angle with a credit card sized fresnel lens held in front of it it'll throw 200 metres easily. I thought about replacing the LED with a XP-E Q5 with a 700 mA AMC7135 board, possibly multimode. I figured the lower current but better efficacy bin would even out and I'd get roughly the same amount of light, possibly slightly better throw because of the apparent die size, and better runtime on high. I haven't got around to it yet though, partly because DX took absolutely ages restocking their XP-E star so I cancelled it and moved on to something else.

With an XP-G at 1.2 amps you'd have 400 lumens (not out the front though).


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## MoreGooder (Jan 2, 2010)

*Re: My quest for the perfect flood-to-throw > 400 lm*



TorchBoy said:


> I too have a C30 - great spotter, and zoomed out to its wide angle with a credit card sized fresnel lens held in front of it it'll throw 200 metres easily. I thought about replacing the LED with a XP-E Q5 with a 700 mA AMC7135 board, possibly multimode. I figured the lower current but better efficacy bin would even out and I'd get roughly the same amount of light, possibly slightly better throw because of the apparent die size, and better runtime on high. I haven't got around to it yet though, partly because DX took absolutely ages restocking their XP-E star so I cancelled it and moved on to something else.
> 
> With an XP-G at 1.2 amps you'd have 400 lumens (not out the front though).


 
Sweet! But, what does "out the front" mean? 

Oh, and driving an XP-G at 1.2A would be beyond spec, and would decrease the life, right?


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## Packhorse (Jan 2, 2010)

*Re: My quest for the perfect flood-to-throw > 400 lm*

Also note that the XP-G has a wider dispersion angle VS the XR-E so less emitted light will get to the lens.


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## TorchBoy (Jan 2, 2010)

*Re: My quest for the perfect flood-to-throw > 400 lm*



MoreGooder said:


> Sweet! But, what does "out the front" mean?
> 
> Oh, and driving an XP-G at 1.2A would be beyond spec, and would decrease the life, right?


The LED itself would be producing 400 lumens, but much of that be emitted out to the sides so wouldn't hit the lens, and the lens would absorb some of the light as it passes through. So the lumens that actually make if out the front of the lens would be quite a bit less than 400.

Yes, that extra heat would probably result in lower lumen maintenance. You'd want to put in a good amount of thermal paste to try to conduct the heat to the body.



Packhorse said:


> Also note that the XP-G has a wider dispersion angle VS the XR-E so less emitted light will get to the lens.


Darn, I'd forgotten about that. Similarly with the XP-E. XR-E is 90°, MC-E is 110°, XP-E is 115°, XP-G is 125°. That might make quite a difference.


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## MoreGooder (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: My quest for the perfect flood-to-throw > 400 lm*

The SST-50 has a 100° angle, but requires more amps to make it worthwhile.

or..... does it. Hummmm.....

I would have to mod a tripple 7135 boad to have no protection diodes so that it starts regulating at 2.7 ish volts for Vf. 1amp would drive it to just about 3V according to the spec sheet, yielding about 58% of the rated lux. So, If I'm luck enough to find a WJ bin that would give me about 290 ish lumens.

If I can push a quad 7135 chip it would make more sense, but now w'ere in the 1.4Amp range for this little host with three AAA's inside.

Here's my next question then (and I can't find an answer via search), how many mA's can I possibly hope to draw from three AAA NiMH cells?
 


****** edit *****
 

Nevermind. I just happened to search for the right term and discovered that AAA's can certainly deliver 1.5 Amps and perhaps a bit more. So.... they may not like it, but that's just TOO BAD!
:devil:


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## Linger (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: My quest for the perfect flood-to-throw > 400 lm*

woah, just realised you were using 3xaaa. That's a very weak configuration. Before you do anything else you should consider the noticable gains you would see switching to a more powerful format. If you're thinking of modifying drivers, talking about amps, even considering a $30 emitter, you'll get the largest performance gains from leaving the aaa cell behind. Otherwise its like you're putting nitros and a spoiler on a wheelbarrel.
Good for using search though, excellent.
Consider what it would take for you to move to 18650 cells.


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## moviles (Jan 3, 2010)

I tested again the sst-50 with 21mm aspherical lens here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/231495&page=4





















batteries not at 4.2v. only for comparison of size

trustfire tr 801.(with ez900)
c78 20mm lens(with ez900)
x2000 21mm lens(with ez1000) 3xaaa model, powered with 1x 18500 battery
aurora p7 body with SSR-50 + 21mm lens (x2000 head)


with battery at 4.2v 18650 imr (and current draw more than 5 amp):
9.8k [email protected] 1m with the sst-50 and 21mm lens 
46k [email protected] 1m with the sst-50 and 50mm lens

estimated output:
flood: arround 700-900 lum the same than the p7 flashlights
throw:arround 600-800 lum


with 21mm lens the xre ez900 q5 its more thrower 9-16k [email protected] 

maybe with 28mm lens into the x2000 head we can get good throw


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## Paul Baldwin (Jan 3, 2010)

Moviles, you truly are a lumens addict! Have you tried an ssr50/90 with 50mm aspheric outside yet? I was wondering what sort of range it is actually usefull to, not just how far you can see it making a difference on a distant object.


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## moviles (Jan 3, 2010)

yes, I tested the ssr-50/90 with 50 mm lens (tiablo collimator)

its nice but I never carry it because the head its too big, I really need pocket size 


now I have 2 x mte sf-15 DD with ssr-90 and 186520 imr

I have bought 42mm aspheric lens to try to fit into one of these flashlights(only throw) but yet has not arrived

I will must reduce the diameter of the lens a little if I want fit it into the mte sf-15 body... and I dont know if focal length will be ok








damn camera, it focus bad in macro pictures since 2 months, I need buy one....


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## MoreGooder (Jan 3, 2010)

Moviles,

Thanks for your extremely valuable input. I saw your other thread too.

I think I have ordered the same 28mm lens from KD as you.

http://kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=1793

I also ordered these:
http://kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=1798

http://kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=1860

They probably wont fit though. We'll see!

I have decided that the SST-50 die size is simply too hot to be practicable for a small host when driven at the recommended wattage. I think the best solution is the XP-G at 1 amp for a good balance.

However, I'm sure you've seen the nice chart:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/231495&page=2 post 44.

According to that, if I drive the SST-50 at 1amp I can achieve a very bright light for sure, but not >400 lumes out the front due to the design of the x2000. But..... under-driving the SST-50 should not get hot enough to exceed the thermal capabilities of the X2000 in my opinion. This might be an expensive experiment though. Have you tried using your SST-50 star in the X2000 driven at less than 1.75Amps? 

Keep in mind... my goal is 400 lumens. Flood performance is far more important to me than throw.


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## MoreGooder (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: My quest for the perfect flood-to-throw > 400 lm*



Linger said:


> woah, just realised you were using 3xaaa. That's a very weak configuration. Before you do anything else you should consider the noticable gains you would see switching to a more powerful format. If you're thinking of modifying drivers, talking about amps, even considering a $30 emitter, you'll get the largest performance gains from leaving the aaa cell behind. Otherwise its like you're putting nitros and a spoiler on a wheelbarrel.
> Good for using search though, excellent.
> Consider what it would take for you to move to 18650 cells.


 
Yes, you are absolutely correct! Runtime on AAA's even with my R2 is sorta weird. Overall runtime is fine, but the lumens seem to really drop quickly.

Li-Ion here I come!
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/255733


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## moviles (Jan 3, 2010)

I never tested the ssr-50 into the x2000 because the heat transfer to the body of flashlight its really really bad






at only 1.75amp the throw power with the sst-50+ 21mm lens will be really really low

with the xp-g you will lose some throw power(vs xr-e ez900).....but if you will use it in flood position...maybe the xp- can be not bad option and it is cheap...but maybe will be hard get 400 lum


for our pocket rockets we really need some led in the market with 2-3 mm2 designed for work at 2-3amp and 500-750 lum


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## Linger (Jan 3, 2010)

I tried to build up a pool of solder (knowing it wouldn't bond to the aluminium pill) I was hopeful it may still conform to the shape and still work as a thermal couple. Anyway, don't try that.
I fit a washer inside the ledge the star rests on, and AA'd it to the sides. At the same time I added a driver + xpe r2. The light warms up quickly, as expected, but max temp is really decreased as its no-longer DD off an 18650. (Anyone else suprised this was a straight DD off an 18650? wow)


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## MoreGooder (Jan 3, 2010)

moviles said:


> I never tested the ssr-50 into the x2000 because the heat transfer to the body of flashlight its really really bad
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
All true.... 

Oh, it's a good think you provided that pic of the pill. You can see the ledge referred to by Linger above in post #3 very well.

As I mentioned in my first post, I have an R2 in there now. To add more heatsink, I simply put the old star that the C50 came with underneath the R2 along with thermal paste between the stars, on the ledge, and on the threads of the pill. This improved the host's heatsinking capabilities somewhat.

I will be making a copper plug to replace the old R2 star that will also slip down into the cavaty. (It won't just contact the ledge). More on that later!

MG


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## MoreGooder (Jan 6, 2010)

Linger said:


> I tried to build up a pool of solder (knowing it wouldn't bond to the aluminium pill) I was hopeful it may still conform to the shape and still work as a thermal couple. Anyway, don't try that.
> I fit a washer inside the ledge the star rests on, and AA'd it to the sides. At the same time I added a driver + xpe r2. The light warms up quickly, as expected, but max temp is really decreased as its no-longer DD off an 18650. (Anyone else suprised this was a straight DD off an 18650? wow)


 
Currently, my R2 star is sitting on top of the original star that came with the host, w/ artic silver between. Seems to work well for an R2 dd off 3xaaa's @3.6V nominal. But perhaps not well enough for 3.7 li-ion's due to lower battery internal resistance (more current).

Presently, I have no plans to dd my R2 with Li-ion. Once my goods arrive from DX, I'll be using a circuit to pump 1Amp max.

Oh, and this wait for my new toys from HK is killing me softly.


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## MoreGooder (Jan 14, 2010)

Alrighty, time for a quick update.

I have decided to design my own flood-to-throw using Solidworks. I have a machinist that will do the work for me.

The battery will be 26650, qty 1.
http://www.batteryspace.com/limnnirechargeable26650cell37v4000mah10arated148wh.aspx

Construction will be primarily aluminum.

The focusing head will be designed around one of the Ashperic lenses I have on order, or perhaps one from Surplusshed.

I haven't decided on a tail clicky or side clicky

I'll be evaluating various driver boards, but ideally I want low-med-high, where high is 1.0 to 1.2A.

There will be no tactical head, nor tactical clicky, and no lanyard loop.

Remember: My main concern is flood, not throw. If it throws well and is tightly focused I'll consider that a bonus.


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## MoreGooder (Jan 14, 2010)

I just bought this lens:

http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/l10085.html

Should be fun to play with, and perhaps the ideal lens for my design.


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## MoreGooder (Jan 17, 2010)

I started a new thread here for the custom design work.

CLICK ME!


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