# Is Maglite afraid of LED technology?



## solarwinds (Aug 22, 2005)

Simple question ------ why doesn't Maglite upgrade to LEDs and make them standard on their flashlights? It is the future of lighting, is it not? Why stick with old incandescent technology, and all the disadvantages of it such as poor battery life, poor bulb life, and bulbs blowing out on impact?


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 22, 2005)

I think you might have answered your own question. 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## beezaur (Aug 22, 2005)

I think you hit on the answer -- it is the future of lighting. It is not the "present" of lighting.

Mags are much maligned, but really they are darned good lights. Tough, bright, useful for around $20. That's all the average working man really needs, when it comes right down to it.

If I was Anthony Maglica, I think I'd wait until theis technology becomes more mature. Why spend millions retooling for a light source that will change in a few years? Besides, a primary feature of MagLites is the ability to go from flood to a tight spot. Leds cannot do that right now. I'll bet that, as soon as there is a bright LED that is small enough for variable focusing, we will see LED MagLites.

Scott


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## zespectre (Aug 22, 2005)

I think another part of the equation is that we flashaholics have a somewhat skewed view about lighting. Every time I go to a campground people see my Dorcy Super 1 watt or my Gerber LX 3.0 and they are absolutely stunned. Most of them have no knowledge of LED lights beyond the indicators on a computer or VCR.

I guess my point is that we are SO far out on the edge of current lighting that we forget where the common joe is (thinking a 3d Mag is still the king of flashlights). 

Mag still sells a LOT of flashlights as they are currently designed and I seriously doubt that will change until LED based lighting develops further and becomes more common.


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## Lmtfi (Aug 22, 2005)

As zespectre alludes - Flashaholics probably represent less that 1% of the market. 99% of the market wouldn't dream of paying $25 for a flashlight - however bright. Tony Maglica is a good businessman and will stay focused on the 90 percentile market - which right now seems well-served by Maglites as currently built. By the way - their chief market competitors are listed as Eveready and RayoVac. 
"If it ain't broke - don't fix it".

Folks love to pretend to pick on Mags - but the reality is it isn't a bad light for $7 (AA). Great mod platform as many here love to do.

At $80 million/year revenue I think Mag is just fine where they are. They aren't focused on CPF'ers because we are a miniscule part of the worldwide market.


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## ABTOMAT (Aug 22, 2005)

The company has said in emails that they have LED lights, and will introduce them before long. My impression from a couple articles I read is that Maglica himself nixes a lot of stuff before it reaches production.

They don't sell batteries, and probably make almost no money on bulbs. Most folks I know with Mags have never had a bulb blow.

With Mag's production power they'd make a ton of money on what would be inexpensive, high-quality LED lights. They could make SF 6Ps and sell at a profit for $20.


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## pradeep1 (Aug 22, 2005)

I think with cheaper 1 Watt Luxeons showing up in Walmart made by Dorcy, etc., even the common man will start getting an appreciation for LED technology. I don't think an LED Maglite will be that far off. And I don't think it has anything to do with the wide-to-spot focusing issue, as I can focus my mini-mag 2AA with a sandwich in place just as I would with a regular bulb. The spot won't be small and tight, but it can be done.


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## greenLED (Aug 22, 2005)

I'd be curious to see those e-mails from Mag. Never mind... I have a copy in my inbox /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
...Mag Instrument also spends enormous amounts of time and money on research and development to make certain that it maintains its reputation for quality and reliability. Mag Instrument also invests heavily in automation so that it can compete with the pitifully low labor wages in foreign countries. Consequently, the development and introduction of new products takes longer at Mag Instrument than it does for companies selling foreign made flashlights.
Mag Instrument also believes in products which will withstand the test of time. Fad products, such as the snake light flashlight which was popular for a short time, are of no interest to Mag Instrument. Mag Instrument's flashlight 
products are designed to be lifetime products. 
With regard to your question regarding the present lack of a Mag Instrument LED flashlight, please be advised that numerous new products are presently under development at Mag Instrument including LED flashlights. LED technology is a 
rapidly changing technology and, in Mag Instrument's opinion, the LED flashlight products which are presently being sold are lacking in the type of performance and quality needed by a consumer.
Mag Instrument expects to introduce LED flashlights within the very near future. When they are introduced, we believe they will be the best LED flashlights on the market and worthy to carry the Maglite® name. There are some very good LED retrofits available for our lights at www.flashlightking.com 

Thank you for contacting Mag Instrument.
Don

[/ QUOTE ] 

I will be happy to forward the original message to anyone interested, just PM me.


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## Solstice (Aug 22, 2005)

I think this has been discussed before somewhere but I have no idea of which thread. 

As I recall, it was noted that what Mag has done really well has nothing to do with inovation, rather it has everything to do with streamlining their production process. 

Mag already has a giant portion of the flashlight market with their products cheaply accessable at pretty much any store that sells flashlights. The cost of the lights have stayed pretty much constant, as have the lights themselves. However, it has gotten cheaper and cheaper to produce these lights. 

As long as the company is seeing nice profits, there is no pressure for them to change much of anything (and the average non-flashaholic has no problem with this whatsoever). Once LEDs really start ripping a hole in Mags bottom line, I'm sure they'll be ready to role out some LED product of their own.

If I were to venture a guess: Mag brand LED replacement "bulbs" for their existing flashlight lines.


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## ABTOMAT (Aug 23, 2005)

Green, just email them asking about future technology or products. You'll probably get one back from Don like I did.


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## greenLED (Aug 23, 2005)

yup, I think this is the second (or third /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif) time I copy that e-mail. And maybe it was ABTOMAT making the same comment.

Deja vu, (all over again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)


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## solarwinds (Aug 23, 2005)

I know this discussion probably occurred many times before, but I feel that there may be newer facts which would shed some light about why Maglight specializes in archaic lighting technology.

The email about Maglite upgrading to LEDs sounds promising though.

I feel consumers are being misled into thinking Maglite is a superior product when it's clearly an inferior product, regardless of whether you're pro-LED or not. 

Look at how a Dorcy Luxeon 3-D compares to a Maglite Incandescent 3-D:







Really, does it really take a flasholic to interpret such a chart? What in the world are casual people thinking when they buy a maglite and get substandard performance? Yet there are products out there like the Dorcy 3-D Luxeon which are clearly superior to what Maglite comes out with. But I suppose when you have a company which is a monopoly in the flashlight market, then people unconditionally accept whatever junk they come out with, right?

Also, I could understand old-fashioned people wanting to stick with incandescent if that's what they're used to, kind of like DJs sticking to playing vinyl rather than playing CDs at parties. My local police department only use Maglites on their belt clip. If only they knew the advantages of LEDs..


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## dano (Aug 23, 2005)

That email (in Green LED's post) from Maglite is from the legendary Donald Keller, inventor of the Kel-Lite. That's pretty cool...

-dan


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## pradeep1 (Aug 23, 2005)

Maglites are more about marketing than quality. They look like they have quality, but on closer inspection, really don't. Sure they used nice aluminum work and have a nice design, but the quality of construction is okay. Design and innovation...yeah right. They just take the same basic design and add more batteries or cut batteries. Very crappy performance...but that's all I bought and all my family bought until I discovered Luxeons and Lithium Incandescent flashlights. 

I recently modded a mini-mag 2AA with a MM Lite RYOJ sandwich from Wayne and I purposely dropped the flashlight in a sink filled with water. After about a minute, the flashlight filled with water. I remember every other flashlight that I have (Streamlight, Q3, Costco 2AA Lux, Infinity, etc.) all could handle a good dunking, but this mini-maglite couldn't, even though it had O-rings all around. So I have lost faith in Maglite products. I'll still buy them as cheap hosts for making cooler flashlights, but will never look upon them with the same reverence I have for better flashlights.

Of course, we are 0.01% of the flashlight market, so we mean little to Maglite. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Solstice (Aug 23, 2005)

solarwinds: I agree with most of what you said but take a look down at the bottom of Quickbeam's review (where that runtime chart is from):
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/dorcy_luxeon3d.htm
The Dorcy 3D is listed at $51.99. This is an astronomical sum for most non-flashaholics. The Mag 3D can be had for around $22. 

Target has recently priced the Dorcy Luxeon 3D much closer (and in some locations possibly cheaper) to the Mag's price. It will be interesting to see if a great enough number of "average joes" opt for the Dorcy over the Mag without ever having had enough interest to go find a runtime graph on a review site. Dorcy should (or do they already?) print that graph right on the product's box.


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## ABTOMAT (Aug 23, 2005)

One thing you need to consider is that most people don't really care how bright their flashlight is, as long as it won't fall apart (as real cheapies often do.) Mags still are well made--despite comments some people here make about their quality, their level of finish is as good as it gets outside of "high-end" lights like Surefire (and older SFs are about on par).

The Mag's basic design was very high-tech for 1980 when they came out. The issue now is that they haven't updated since 1989 and the marketing machine is working to convince people they're still state-of-the-art.

Fact it: If you're the average Joe who can't spend more than $15-20, wants long runtimes and a light that uses common batteries, your best bet is Mag-Lite and the company knows that.

Keep in mind that I'm talking about original (C/D) Mag-Lites. I think the Mini-Mag's time is flat over. Give me a small LED in that form factor any day.

I've often ondered if Don's working on any neat new tech with Mag. He's some kind of special advisor officially--maybe like technical public relations? Other than some work with ASP his recent inventions have been rather dated.


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## joema (Aug 23, 2005)

Re nobody wants to pay over $20 for a flashlight, Mag already sells the Mag Charger for about $90.

True it's a more specialized product they sell in fewer numbers -- just like an LED light would initially be.

25 years ago it seemed Mag was leading edge. It was the highest quality light most consumers had access to.

Today that same consumer can buy far superior Luxeon lights from Home Depot, REI, etc. It's a totally different competitive picture.

It's not just the low price Dorcys. An SL ProPoly Lux 3C is nearly as cheap as a Mag 3D, and has far superior performance, weight, and runtime -- 6.5 hr ruler flat regulated output.

If Mag thinks LED technology isn't yet stable or cheap enough, they should examine the SL PP Lux lights. Mindshare and customer inertia are the only things keeping their sales going, and that won't last forever.


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## ABTOMAT (Aug 23, 2005)

Notice that the greater population hasn't bought Magchargers, and it's been around for 15 years and is more superior to normal Mags than LED lights are. The Magcharger has a very specific customer--the law enforcement market. You don't see people walking around with Tigerlights or Polystingers, either. My local hardware store has a few MC bulbs on the rack, and they've been there forever.

If you can get a D-size Luxeons down to around $20-25, and have a huge marketing campaign to inform the public, people will snap them up. However you'll see that at this point only one company could do that, and doesn't.


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## greenLED (Aug 23, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*dano said:*
That email (in Green LED's post) from Maglite is from the legendary Donald Keller, inventor of the Kel-Lite. That's pretty cool...

-dan 

[/ QUOTE ]

Woa! I was corresponding with someone famous and had no clue (actually, I still don't know who this gentleman is, but I'll have to dig out some info on him).

I'll say this: the day Maglite comes out with a LED product, I'll buy it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I like Maglites. Dorcy looks and feels cheap (well, maybe not all their models...) compared to Mags.

...I'm back, did a little homework. Here are some links about the Kel-lite:
Kel-Lite??? 
Kel-Lite legacy 
Some pics (this guy's gotta be a CPF member!) 
Flashlights & liability article 
Copy of US patent 4357648 (?)


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## Double_A (Aug 23, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*pradeep1 said:*
Maglites are more about marketing than quality. They look like they have quality, but on closer inspection, really don't. Sure they used nice aluminum work and have a nice design, but the quality of construction is okay. Design and innovation...yeah right. They just take the same basic design and add more batteries or cut batteries. Very crappy performance...but that's all I bought and all my family bought until I discovered Luxeons and Lithium Incandescent flashlights. 

I recently modded a mini-mag 2AA with a MM Lite RYOJ sandwich from Wayne and I purposely dropped the flashlight in a sink filled with water. After about a minute, the flashlight filled with water. I remember every other flashlight that I have (Streamlight, Q3, Costco 2AA Lux, Infinity, etc.) all could handle a good dunking, but this mini-maglite couldn't, even though it had O-rings all around. So I have lost faith in Maglite products. I'll still buy them as cheap hosts for making cooler flashlights, but will never look upon them with the same reverence I have for better flashlights.

Of course, we are 0.01% of the flashlight market, so we mean little to Maglite. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]


Bingo we have a winner here! Maglights are great lights, strong, nice looking, great public opinion they only suffer from one problem, their light output sucks.

In my opinion if Maglite doesn't come out with a LED light this year 2005, will be the beginning of the end for them. They've had several years of growing acceptance of LED lights by the general public and they surely have had opportunities and millions for development. 2005 or die.


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## Mark2 (Aug 23, 2005)

LEDs are *not* a speciality anymore. LED lights can be found everywhere, from gas stations to the local supermarket. I was told (by someone at Dorcy) that they now sell more lights than Mag. The LED lights are here and people know about them. I am sure Mag is coming out with something and it's about time.


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## Pellidon (Aug 23, 2005)

Even though Mag sells "billyuns and billyuns" of lights each year they suffer from their sucess in the scale of production. Look at the time it took for them to rotate through old stock to get to the new style AA end cap with the plastic spare bulb holder and the newer AA lamps to make it into the lights. The reason they can keep the price low for a solidly made not too cheap aluminum construction is to make boatloads of them at a time. It takes time to rotate out that stock and bean counters won't allow stock to be scrapped so new can come in. 

Mag has a patent for a new D size tail cap that replaces the foam bulb holder. Don't look for the old ones to vanish anytime soon just to make the new ones come out. 

Once they reduce stocks to allow a phase in of new technology it will probably occur. 

Their very success could be their undoing. By the time they move stock out to allow a rollout of new to not poison sales of the old the rest of the market may come out with a nicely made competitive priced light that has decent marketing behind it. Then Mag would have an uphill struggle to regain the market despite their past successes. 

But consider also that I and many non Flashaholics as well have 25+ year old 2D Mags that look like crap now but still come on when the button is pressed. That kind of sturdiness breeds some brand ID loyality, despite blowing bulbs and weak light battery eating bulb technology.


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## pedalinbob (Aug 23, 2005)

I would guess that Maglite monitors these forums...if they are smart.

There is a tremendous amount of info and R&D done here.
Look at what Wayne has done with his little drop-in sammies!

I think that when Mag jumps into the LED market, they will come out with some real winners...IF they pay attention to the almighty CPF! 
In fact, they should consult some CPF members for design ideas/parameters.

Bob


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## ABTOMAT (Aug 23, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*greenLED said:*
Woa! I was corresponding with someone famous and had no clue (actually, I still don't know who this gentleman is, but I'll have to dig out some info on him).

I'll say this: the day Maglite comes out with a LED product, I'll buy it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I like Maglites. Dorcy looks and feels cheap (well, maybe not all their models...) compared to Mags.

...I'm back, did a little homework. Here are some links about the Kel-lite:

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clarify things, a lot of info posted in the past isn't dead on. He invented the first Kel-Lite (normal flashlight but with alumnium body) around 1968. By the early '70s he was out of the company. Ke-Lite updated their design once or twice after that until they were bought by Streamlight in the early '80s. During that period Keller designed lights for a few competing brands. Later on he did the Legend for Brinkmann and had contributions to ASP. A few years age he started a new company under the Kel-Lite name and bought out GT Price for a product. I gather this didn't do too well and was sold to a big outfit and renamed Nordic. They've gone out of business a couple times (not surprising--the lights aren't great) but I think are still around. He's been doing the Mag thing for a long time now.

Mark2, it's interesting to hear that about Dorcy's sales. I wouldn't be surprised, though, since they are the OEM for many store brands.


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## Lmtfi (Aug 23, 2005)

I suspect that Maglite as a firm knows a helluva lot more about the national and international market for flashlights that just about everyone here put together. They are servicing a huge marketplace and have to know a lot of things (that none of us consider important) that is critical to servicing customers, supply chains and their competitive landscape.

My neighbors don't give a single thought to flashlights - they are something that is left in the kitchen drawer until the power goes out. Corroded batteries from 1995? Throw it out and buy a new one. Bulb burned out? Throw it away and buy a new one. Light doesn't come on when you flick the switch? Throw it away. Their time is worth more than screwing with the damn flashlight.

I disagree with those who posit that the 95 percentile market wants long-lasting LEDs, pure white light, great throw and/or low battery consumption. Most people I know couldn't care less. Just buy more flashlights or batteries. A flashlight is a disposable thing and a manufacturer would have to be nuts to spend money convincing consumers otherwise.

Its good that the average consumer has a choice between a Mag and a $25-50 LED light - but I wouldn't start holding a wake for Maglite yet. They will switch to LED if and when such a change makes good business sense - from a global market perspective. In a market where 95%+ of their customers couldn't care less about LEDs - I don't see the urgent need for that change.

I imagine that in many circles - the colorful aluminum Maglite is considered a high end flashlight among the plastic models from circa 1960. Read the post above on who Maglites competitors are - it isn't Surefire, Pelican or Streamlite. CPF'ers have a specialist perspective not shared by the majority of Maglites customers.

Alan


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## mykall (Aug 23, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*pedalinbob said:*

I think that when Mag jumps into the LED market, they will come out with some real winners...IF they pay attention to the almighty CPF! 

Bob 

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't count on anything soon. M_g has been issuing
answers like that for quite some time. I can remember when
I got my first car for college back in the 80's I wanted 
a MM for the glove, but the price was arount $22. That 
would have blown my "college" budget back then and I settled
for a 2AA Garrity tuff-lite because it was waterproof in it's 
black-rubber glory. There were few lights at this
time that were even water resistant that could be bought
off a shelf-I still have the light.

At some point in time M_G stopped being a Flashlight company
and started becoming a business...a BIG business. This is
due in part to their apparent "Walmart-IZATION". 20 years ago 
M_G would have never seen those cheap $8-9 Chinese aluminum
lights as competitors on the Wally shelf that they do today. 

This is a mindset borne of income-statement and 
balance-sheet mentality. It's got to be frustrating for M_G's engineers, 
unless anyone believes that they're actually bean counters rather than 
flash-a-holics like this group.

I've got to hand it to companies like Stihl chain saws who
do not sell their saws at Lowes, Home-Cheapo, or Wally, yet
they remain the best selling saws in the world. I have to 
believe that at some point M_G could have flipped Wally the 
bird and sold online, specialty cats etc and not been subject 
to the "reduce, reduce...reduce" pressures of Walmart. 
This might have maintained their margins 
and hence their innovation.

When you see a well crafted (but hapless)Solitaire next to a 
1AAA Dorky Led(made in China) and the Dorky sells for a dollar 
or so more than the Solitaire at Walmart, think about
M_G's margins and their budget for innovation. What's 
more the Dork will actually produce more light than
the Solitaire and for a lot longer, not to mention
that it's bulb won't begin caramelizing on 1/2 a set of
batteries.

Considering their size and scope, I don't think that
M_g's web site is anything special, acutally I don't
even think it adequate for a company who cares about 
their products. 

I sure think this company could do a better job.

MB


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## DarkLight (Aug 23, 2005)

This is like comparing a gamers high end pc needs against grandma who wants to send emails and view recipeds online..

try to tell grandma she needs dual 7800gtx in SLI with 2gigs of ram on a FX57 CPU with anXFI sound card and a 21 inch LCD monitor with a 6ms response time.

Like most people in here, we overestimate Joe Publics flashlight trends.

My friends all say wow What a bright light that Mag85, Polaris is....How much? YOU crazy! Thats stupid!


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## C4LED (Aug 23, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*dano said:*
That email (in Green LED's post) from Maglite is from the legendary Donald Keller, inventor of the Kel-Lite. That's pretty cool...

-dan 

[/ QUOTE ]

See this site for more on the Kel-lite. Elvis was a fan:

http://www.kingcandids.com/personalitems/flashlight.htm


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## The_virus (Aug 23, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Mark2 said:*
I was told (by someone at Dorcy) that they now sell more lights than Mag. 

[/ QUOTE ]

When someone mentioned before that Mag's listed competitors are Eveready and Rayovac, I was surprised Dorcy was given no mention. I see far more Dorcy products than Eveready and Rayovac combined where I live.


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## DocArnie (Aug 23, 2005)

I personally love Maglites. Yes I love them. Before I got my Nuwai Q3 the stock Minimag never let me down. OK, my 6D is pretty useless, because it's too big, but when I bought it I actually wanted a club that spends light.
Now I have a stock Magcharger next to my bed, if things go bumb at night. It has a strong, long throwing, nice and useful (though not whitewallhunter-perfect) beam and it's rechargeable.

I needed a good incan light for my car, with at least 100 lumen, lithium-powered, because I want to use it in winter, too. Instead of buying a SF 9p or Wolf-Eyes 9V for much money (80-100Euro), I just got myself a titanium-colored Maglite 2C (the newest version with the cat-head on the switch) for 28Euro, put in a Magnum-Star-bulb (9V), took three Cr123, lay them in a line, put duct-tape around the battery in the middle to build a pack, threw it in the Mag 2C, cut out some diffusing foil in the size of a lens, screwed out the lens, put the foil in front of it an put the lens with the foil back in and tadaaa! - I have a light, equally as good for ~30% of the prize. Since it's just for the car, the size doesn't matter too much. But it's still not heavy, so it's backpack-compatible, too. It's got a smooth beam now, it's not rattling, it's very tough and is one of the most beautiful flashlights ever made IMHO.

Many flashaholics are complaining about the beam quality of Maglites, but instead of complaining, why don't you put in a cheap piece of foil in front of the lens? All you need is something which diffuses the light. It costs almost NOTHING. It's not like Surefire is using magic to get a smooth beam. It's totally simple. If the diffusion comes from the reflector or the lens, doesn't matter IMHO. And even if the diffusor takes away 5 or 10 percent of the light-output. So what? Your eyes adapt to it, so you won't even notice unless you compare it to another light in front of a WHITE WALL.
This little piece of foil can even make a stock Minimag useful again. The light output itself is very practical. It just needs a smoother beam. Since I've done that, I forgot about LED-drop-ins.

I can understand that Maglite sticks with incan technology. Incan light is still more useful than LED-light. Especially with other light-sources around you, you're better off with an incandescent light. I think police officers know what I'm talking about.

Regarding how cheap and easy it is to improve your or your friends Maglites, I think the price for this product is more than excellent.

Please don't feel offended. In this posting I didn't speak as a flashaholics, but as an average flashlight user.


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## UVvis (Aug 23, 2005)

Another note that I don't think anyone has mentioned.

Many people don't like the color spectrum of LED's. Many LED's aren't warm enough to distinguish greens and yellows well enough for some. Most of the 5mm LED's and the like people see are blue or purple tinted, so they will think all LED's are that way. Some of the Yellow/ yellow green tints that people complain about here look nice on grass.


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## asdalton (Aug 23, 2005)

Yes, Mag doesn't have to make flashlights that are better than everyone else's--they just have to make flashlights that are better, for the price, than anything that you're likely to find in department stores. The one exception is the Solitaire, which is lousy compared to many LED keychain lights that cost just a little bit more. I predict that any Mag LED flashlights will start in the Solitaire size range.


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## Lmtfi (Aug 23, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*The_virus said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*Mark2 said:*
I was told (by someone at Dorcy) that they now sell more lights than Mag. 

[/ QUOTE ]

When someone mentioned before that Mag's listed competitors are Eveready and Rayovac, I was surprised Dorcy was given no mention. I see far more Dorcy products than Eveready and Rayovac combined where I live. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my post. I looked at Maglite's investor profile - RayoVac and Eveready are considered Maglite's market competitors on the national and international level. 

ETA: Businesses have but one purpose - to generate profit. They do not exist to stoke their engineering staff's interests/egos, make cool products or be leaders in anything. Forget the GE commercials ("We bring better things to life") Ben and Jerry's community programs (which I applaud) or making the first one kilowatt LED light for under $5.00. Its about profit - and any firm that strays from that motive will likely perish quickly in today intensively competitive, very international market. Its not the world it used to be and I doubt there will be any turning back.

Alan


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## zespectre (Aug 23, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*UVvis said:*
Another note that I don't think anyone has mentioned.

Many people don't like the color spectrum of LED's. Many LED's aren't warm enough to distinguish greens and yellows well enough for some. Most of the 5mm LED's and the like people see are blue or purple tinted, so they will think all LED's are that way. Some of the Yellow/ yellow green tints that people complain about here look nice on grass. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I had ment to mention that as well. My wife loves the coverage of the LED lights we have but she doesn't like the "blue" color. As fond of LED stuff as I am I have to agree that for trying to find something (on the ground while camping) it seems like my eyes work much better with a "slightly" yellow tinted beam. 

Just recently read an article about this that discussed an "incandescent-color LED" that, as I understand it, was designed specifically to put a bit of yellow/orange into the beam. Of course now I can't find the link.


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## pradeep1 (Aug 23, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*pedalinbob said:*
I would guess that Maglite monitors these forums...if they are smart.

There is a tremendous amount of info and R&D done here.
Look at what Wayne has done with his little drop-in sammies!

I think that when Mag jumps into the LED market, they will come out with some real winners...IF they pay attention to the almighty CPF! 
In fact, they should consult some CPF members for design ideas/parameters.

Bob 

[/ QUOTE ]

If Maglite bought out Wayne's Madmax Lite RYOJ Sammie business (for millions and millions, we wish, Wayne), and could put out a mini-2AA that has the performance characteristics for maybe $20 at Walmart, they would sell them by the boatload and dominate the market once again.

Heck, I'd go out and buy 10 to give away at that price.

We can only wish /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif and dream.


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## Geologist (Aug 23, 2005)

Another thought, as we all know, MAG is very aggressive when it comes to patents and pursuing those who they feel have infringed upon the patents that they hold. That being said, how compicated would it be for Mag to come out with their own version of a drop in module (similar to the TerraLux Line), patent it or BUY the patent, then continue to offer their same lights with the LED module as an option/different consumer package. How many consumers would ever even TRY to take the LED module out ("don't touch it its an LED!"). I personally think that they are just WAITING. Once they see the consumer base move (it ain't moving yet - even most SF Military/LEO customers are still primarily using incadesents). they make a smooth, easy switch over to LEDs, and never lose market share. I think effeciency and LED price are the two waiting factors (IMO). Even though others are making great lights, do you think Dorcy or any of the smaller LED light makers are in a position to dethrone MAG? Don't bet on it.


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## UVvis (Aug 23, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*zespectre said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*UVvis said:*
Another note that I don't think anyone has mentioned.

Many people don't like the color spectrum of LED's. Many LED's aren't warm enough to distinguish greens and yellows well enough for some. Most of the 5mm LED's and the like people see are blue or purple tinted, so they will think all LED's are that way. Some of the Yellow/ yellow green tints that people complain about here look nice on grass. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I had ment to mention that as well. My wife loves the coverage of the LED lights we have but she doesn't like the "blue" color. As fond of LED stuff as I am I have to agree that for trying to find something (on the ground while camping) it seems like my eyes work much better with a "slightly" yellow tinted beam. 

Just recently read an article about this that discussed an "incandescent-color LED" that, as I understand it, was designed specifically to put a bit of yellow/orange into the beam. Of course now I can't find the link. 

[/ QUOTE ]

If you find this let me know!!!


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## Big_Ed (Aug 23, 2005)

I have many MagLites, and like them all. I'm sure that as long as I don't lose them or let batteries corrode in them, I'll have them for the rest of my life. I can't say I'd be saying that about any of Mag's competitor's lights.

I believe that MagLites are the best lights IN THEIR CLASS. Sure, when you compare a stock MiniMag to one modded with a lux emitter it falls short, and likewise with the big Mags. But when you compare, say, a stock 3D Mag against another 3D incandescent, I'd take the Mag every time. Same goes for the other sized Mags. Especially when you consider price. We all seem to be caught up comparing MagLites to the latest high-tech lights that we at CPF are lucky to have or even know about. We need to stop comparing apples to oranges. It's like trying to compare a Chevy to a Ferrari. Sure the performance isn't the same, but it's not a fair comparison. Keep comparisons in the same class.


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## Big_Ed (Aug 23, 2005)

I'd also like to add that I don't think the folks at MagLite are stupid, or afraid of LED technology. Perhaps just slow (very slow) at adopting LED technology. I bet they have a room just filled with every mod ever thought up (especially those found here on CPF) for all their lights, and are just testing, improving, and narrowing down the types of lights they'd like to put on the market. They're probably also waiting for the Luxeon lottery to be less of a gamble.

I believe when they do come out with an LED light, it'll be a good one that'll be competitively priced with what's on store shelves. I believe like others have stated here, they'll probably start out with the Solitaire and maybe MiniMag, then move on to the big Mags.


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## NikolaTesla (Aug 23, 2005)

I bet Mag sells 1 million $20 big D lights for every $39 little bitty ARC light. When they can make money on a $20 light and the dealers too, maybe they will switch. Hey they are the greatest "Donor" for mods ever. The switch is easy to remove and modify. Every thing about it is robust. They come in colors too. Heck the darn drop in LED's cost twice as much as the light. It's a money thing. 20 bucks is the limit. Look how many of the spot lights are in the stores for $19.99.


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## Double_A (Aug 24, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Lmtfi said:*
I suspect that Maglite as a firm knows a helluva lot more about the national and international market for flashlights that just about everyone here put together. They are servicing a huge marketplace and have to know a lot of things (that none of us consider important) that is critical to servicing customers, supply chains and their competitive landscape.

My neighbors don't give a single thought to flashlights - they are something that is left in the kitchen drawer until the power goes out. Corroded batteries from 1995? Throw it out and buy a new one. Bulb burned out? Throw it away and buy a new one. Light doesn't come on when you flick the switch? Throw it away. Their time is worth more than screwing with the damn flashlight.

I disagree with those who posit that the 95 percentile market wants long-lasting LEDs, pure white light, great throw and/or low battery consumption. Most people I know couldn't care less. Just buy more flashlights or batteries. A flashlight is a disposable thing and a manufacturer would have to be nuts to spend money convincing consumers otherwise.

Its good that the average consumer has a choice between a Mag and a $25-50 LED light - but I wouldn't start holding a wake for Maglite yet. They will switch to LED if and when such a change makes good business sense - from a global market perspective. In a market where 95%+ of their customers couldn't care less about LEDs - I don't see the urgent need for that change.

I imagine that in many circles - the colorful aluminum Maglite is considered a high end flashlight among the plastic models from circa 1960. Read the post above on who Maglites competitors are - it isn't Surefire, Pelican or Streamlite. CPF'ers have a specialist perspective not shared by the majority of Maglites customers.

Alan 

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, yes and no. 

Yes to your thoughts on the average joe, thumbs down to Maglight. 

Who says Maglight has to bring out a full product line of LED lights? 

These chickens can't even bring themselves to dip their tough-guy toes into the water.

If they don't bring out even "one" led light for the Christmas season, then this year will be the beginning of the end for them. Hells bells they could come out like ol' Al Gore in late October and claim they invented the LED light and tell everyone how brillant they are...they would make a huge splash with the general public. How about an AA LED light as a stocking stuffer.

If they can't do that, Dorcey is going to eat them for lunch within three years.


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## turbodog (Aug 24, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Lmtfi said:*
That was my post. I looked at Maglite's investor profile - RayoVac and Eveready are considered Maglite's market competitors on the national and international level. 

ETA: Businesses have but one purpose - to generate profit. They do not exist to stoke their engineering staff's interests/egos, make cool products or be leaders in anything. Forget the GE commercials ("We bring better things to life") Ben and Jerry's community programs (which I applaud) or making the first one kilowatt LED light for under $5.00. Its about profit - and any firm that strays from that motive will likely perish quickly in today intensively competitive, very international market. Its not the world it used to be and I doubt there will be any turning back.



[/ QUOTE ]

Has anyone though that Mag may be a little smarter then we think? Gosh no! Could that be?

If rayovac/eveready are listed as competitors, and dorcy is NOT, it is possible that mag has bought dorcy behind the scenes? I am sure they have enough cash to.

And mag is privately held. So, yes, they must conform to some basic rules of business. But, tony could still run the company into the ground just because he wants to.


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## mykall (Aug 24, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*turbodog said:*

If rayovac/eveready are listed as competitors, and dorcy is NOT, it is possible that mag has bought dorcy behind the scenes? I am sure they have enough cash to.

And mag is privately held. So, yes, they must conform to some basic rules of business. But, tony could still run the company into the ground just because he wants to. 

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I don't think M_g has bought the Dork, and they wouldn't 
need cash because that's what LEVERAGE is for /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

2. M_g being privately held is EXACTLY why I stated what I
did in a previous post on this thread. Why do you think
SF has such great lights and does "the right thing"? 
Does anyone think it's because they have a million stock 
holders screaming for a profit?

Yes the Croatian could run the company into the ground
but even Sarb-Ox doesn't guarantee that this couldn't
happen with a pub-held, it would just be for a different
form of greed.

MB


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## turbodog (Aug 24, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*mykall said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*turbodog said:*

If rayovac/eveready are listed as competitors, and dorcy is NOT, it is possible that mag has bought dorcy behind the scenes? I am sure they have enough cash to.

And mag is privately held. So, yes, they must conform to some basic rules of business. But, tony could still run the company into the ground just because he wants to. 

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I don't think M_g has bought the Dork, and they wouldn't 
need cash because that's what LEVERAGE is for /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

2. M_g being privately held is EXACTLY why I stated what I
did in a previous post on this thread. Why do you think
SF has such great lights and does "the right thing"? 
Does anyone think it's because they have a million stock 
holders screaming for a profit?

Yes the Croatian could run the company into the ground
but even Sarb-Ox doesn't guarantee that this couldn't
happen with a pub-held, it would just be for a different
form of greed.

MB 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think any investor in surefire would be dancing in the street right now.


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## Tritium (Aug 24, 2005)

Mag is definitely aware of this forum cause I told them they should monitor it a while back. I also received a e-mail back from "Don" indicating that LED's were not yet where mag "wanted them to be" before they incorporated the technology into their product. He did not specify what characteristics are lacking in current LED's produced.
My personal take is that anyone selling 90 million a year is far far far (to the 22 power) ahead of my paltry income and I am therefore not qualified to make judgements about their marketing model which is obviously working.

Thurmond


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## picard (Aug 24, 2005)

maglite can at least make some entry level LED light. Brinkman can make it and so can maglite. Energizer can make LED. Maglite is behind the time just like chrysler when Honda arrive in the US.


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## BentHeadTX (Aug 24, 2005)

I think Mag wants to make a Luxeon type minimag for under $20...under $15 if they can. At this point, it would be very hard to do but the time is getting closer when it can be done.

A Solitaire costs $5.95 and if people see it at $18.95 they would choke. Many people comment favorably about my Matterhorn 3 LED Snow29 HO but choke when I tell them it is $35. They don't care about HA-III, regulators, removable lugs etc when they hear the price. Some people understand why it is $35 and still like the light when they think of it as a tool. Others can't see past any flashlight that costs more than $20. 

Surely, Mag is watching the market and has some plans when it comes to LED lights. They have a new manufacturing plant and you can bet it will respond to LED lights when it has to. When that will happen is anyone's guess.


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## Lmtfi (Aug 24, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*picard said:*
Maglite is behind the time just like chrysler when Honda arrive in the US. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says that Maglite is behind the times? Because they aren't catering the 1% of the market that fancies the latest LED technology (e.g. 'us')? Because they aren't going for "gee whiz", latest and greatest?

Seems to me they are making plenty of money and dominate their current market space quite fine without releasing LED lights. I'm guessing that 80% of their market is Home Depot, Lowes, Target, Wal Mart, hardware stores etc etc where Mr. and Mrs. Consumer just wants a cheap light. Its wake-up time: 80% of America isn't chasing highest quality and fullest features - Americans want it CHEAP. The cheap big box stores are growing by leaps and bounds and overwhelming the regional small and specialty stores in most markets because Americans want cheap prices. Like it or not thats where the money is being spent - Americans voting with their wallets....and Maglite is right there for them with the product they want at the price they want to pay.

Until the market beings to move (and it will in time) Maglite is going to keep making a lot of money and successfully fend off their national and international competition (the big market-makers). I'd love to have an EOM killer LED Maglite but I'll patiently wait until it makes business sense for them to do it.

BTW - I'd love to visit their R&D department /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## joema (Aug 24, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Lmtfi said:*
...Who says that Maglite is behind the times? Because they aren't catering the 1% of the market that fancies the latest LED technology...Seems to me they are making plenty of money and dominate their current market space...80% of their market is Home Depot, Lowes, Target, Wal Mart, hardware stores etc etc where Mr. and Mrs. Consumer just wants a cheap light...

[/ QUOTE ]
They're behind the times when their competitors have far superior products for about the same price. E.g, the SL PP Lux 4AA and LEDBeam 3C are superior to a Mag 3D in many respects.

Re making plenty of money so why change, business history is full of defunct companies who had that attitude. An outstanding example is the American automotive industry, in particular GM in the 1970s: "we're currently making plenty of money so why change, why innovate?"

Re the average consumer and Home Depot, etc, there are superior LED products right now in those stores. The average consumer may not be a flashaholic, but he's not stupid. He can figure out price and performance -- the capitalistic system is based on that.

OTOH Mag doesn't necessarily need to move prematurely. With their manufacturing and volume production advantages, they could enter the LED market late and still be dominate. However if they wait too long a market "tipping point" can happen where it's difficult to regain mind and market share.


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## Mike Painter (Aug 24, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion if Maglite doesn't come out with a LED light this year 2005, will be the beginning of the end for them. They've had several years of growing acceptance of LED lights by the general public and they surely have had opportunities and millions for development. 2005 or die. 


[/ QUOTE ] 

I'd bet a nickel they will not and double that to argue it will not be the beginning of the end.
Without touching the design we know that they can drop a LED module in on a moments notice (and a "module" can be a LED and resistor.) So for a minor change in an assembly line they can put a LED out tomorrow.
I'll add a third nickel to the pot and say that when the market makes it worth their while, they will do it.
We represent a *very* small percentage of the market and are not worth bothering about. I'd bet that most of the people who use a flashlight all the time won't bother switching until the price is the same or less. Even at the same there will be a lot of resistance to change.
Maglite can let other be the pioneers.

Asa Adam Osborne pointed out the pioneers are easy to recognize. They are the ones with arrows in their backs.


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## Big_Ed (Aug 24, 2005)

If Mag were truly behind the times, they'd still be offering standard vacuum bulbs, not krypton, or halogen. Just because they aren't on the cutting edge of technology, doesn't make them dinosaurs.

For a profession, I'm a mover. Part of my job involves packing my customer's belongings in boxes in preparation for a move. This is an estimation, but I bet I see 25 incandescent flashlights (Many of them MagLites) to every LED flashlight. And believe me, I'm looking. Whenever I see a flashlight at a customer's house, I'm examining it. 

So as I see it, Mag is right in the middle of it all. Mags are in most of the homes I've been in. Sure it'd be nice if they'd come out with an LED light right now, but they don't necessarily see it the same way we as flashaholics see it. I'm sure they'll get around to it. They have a reputation with the general public, and don't want to scare them away with inferior LED flashlights that don't perform like what they are used to, or better ones that cost twice as much. When the numbers ($) seem right, that's when I think we'll se LED's from Mag.

On a side note, in the 12+ years as a packer/mover, I've only seen a handful of "premium" flashlights. A couple Surefires, a few Pelicans, and Streamlights, maybe a few others, but that's about it.


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## David_Campen (Aug 24, 2005)

For most people LEDs don't offer any advantage over incandescents. I use LEDs because I don't want a bulb to burn out when I am depending on the light but most people don't care that much. And for long throw applications I still use incan; I would love to have a 5-watt LED in a UK4AA form factor, running on AA batteries and having the throw of the 4-watt UK4AA incandescent.


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## Lmtfi (Aug 24, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*joema said:*
They're behind the times when their competitors have far superior products for about the same price. E.g, the SL PP Lux 4AA and LEDBeam 3C are superior to a Mag 3D in many respects.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do some online research you'll find that Streamlight, LEDBeam et al. are not Maglite's competitors (Black & Decker, Energizer Holdings & Spectrum Brands (RayoVac) are). SL & LEDBeam try to fill the niche markets that Maglite does not attempt to address. The bulk of the worldwide market is for cheap, disposable flashlights for the kitchen drawer - not cool stuff. ("Grandma doesn't EDC"). If you read market articles - Maglite is considered expensive for a flashlight and at the high quality mark.

I'll say it again: this is about business, not about cool flashlights. Maglite will move when its global market indicates that it is time. CPF (as fine as it is) is not a barometer of the national or international market for broad demand flashlights.


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## pradeep1 (Aug 25, 2005)

Maglite has mindshare. They are not going to lose that with most of the population who are general users of flashlights. They don't have high retooling and capital costs to retool their entire line-up to have LED capabilities. They are not GM or Ford, or even Chrysler. They are a relatively "small" privately owned maker of consumer grade flashlights.

With that said, Maglite needs to start putting out something soon. Whenver I go to Walmart/Target/Home Depot, I see plenty of mini-mags and solitaires hanging on the shelves, but all of the 1 Watt Luxeons are usually sold out, and so are the Brinkman Maxfires. Has anyone else noticed this? These are not flasholics buying these. These are regular people like my Dad....and people who need good flashlights...buying these.

I could have cared less for flashlights until I saw that first Luxeon 1 Watter go on in my hand and I said "wow". I turned to the Darkside and became a flasholic, but imagine how many people will say "wow" to their first Dorcy Lux or their nice new Brinkman Maxfire (of course, they'll jeer when they see the price of the Maxfires CR123As at Walmart/Target and probably return the light), but still. There are a lot of wow's going on for a lot of people, and Maglite needs to notice this. Maglite should be providing these "wow" experiences...that is what you expect from a leader, right?

If Maglite is smart, they will develop some new-fangled Lux based lights and put them out at a price range that flasholics will buy. We are early adopters. We lead the technology curve, if you can call it that. We also influence others to buy what we like. Think about how many Streamlights, Dorcies, and other LED lights you have purchased or gotten others to purchase. Your rabid fanaticism will inspire and cement Maglite's reputation. Then they drop the price and make it available to the masses. Then all hell breaks loose and Maglite dominates once again, wiping away the others. 

Never assume anyone is smart or stupid. Assume they will do what they will need to do to survive.


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## Ilikeshinythings (Aug 25, 2005)

The company has done very well selling the lights they sell because EVERYBODY can afford a maglite, they can be found everywhere and most importantly, to the average joe they make a wonderful flashlight. I would like to see them get into LED technology cause I think they could make some sweet lights but that would be venturing far from their conservative roots and they might lose money in the process. Even though most appliances contain at least one LED, this technology still has a long way to go before NFs (Non Flashaholics) realize what LEDs are. Everybody knows what an Incandescent or Halogen is, but Luxeon and Nichia are still not household names. Who knows though..maybe Maglite will be the company who makes high powered LED flashlights the "new" big thing.


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## Double_A (Aug 25, 2005)

For the person who said Americans buy only cheap crap and vote with their wallet...how does that explain Maglights popularity & sales? You can buy a dozen cheap plastic crap flashlights for the price of a 3-d cell Maglight. Maglight should be out of business, right?

For the person who said Maglight is waiting for the right time and probibly has something already...I think your right. I also think what is holding them back is/are the LED's themselves. They are waiting for color tint to become more consistant. They are also waiting for Lumileds warm white LEDs to come up to speed.

To those of you that think the price of Maglights entry into the marketplace has to match current pricepoints I say bunk! Maglight could easily add 5-10 bucks to the price of any of their lights with the lure of never having to change a light bulb and never having worry if your bulb still works after dropping your flashlight and never having to worry about it burning out in an emergency. 

And to the poster that said leaders of the pack usually always can be ID'ed by the arrows in their back is sadly often right. But I sincerely hope your personal philosphy isn't to be mediocre and never excel at anything. I betcha a dime that wasn't Tony's philosphy when he started Maglight.


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## joema (Aug 25, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Lmtfi said:*
...If you do some online research you'll find that Streamlight, LEDBeam et al. are not Maglite's competitors...

[/ QUOTE ]
Every sale of a SL PP Lux or LEDBeam is one Maglite doesn't get. By definition that's a competitor.

Consumers aren't stupid. Joe Six Pack knows how to order stuff from the internet, whether flashlights or anything else. In Home Depot he can see LED Dorcys, LED Lenser, LED Brinkmanns, etc hanging on the SAME DISPLAY as Maglites. That's shelf space competition.

True Mag has mind share and customer inertia. But when competitors have superior products at competitive prices, that's a tenuous foundation for long term business success.

Re most of flashlight market is for cheap lights, people don't want a $90 flashlight: Mag ALREADY MAKES a $90 light -- the Mag Charger.

Since sufficient people (or police depts) ALREADY buy $90 old-style Mag-Lites to warrant the development, production and support of those, they will buy a $90 new technology LED light, if Mag made one. Since Mag doesn't make one they'll increasingly buy superior products from competitors, hampered only by waning Mag mind share and customer inertia.

A significant % of customers can recognize and are willing to pay for a superior product. 25 years ago THAT'S HOW MAG BEGAN. Mag would not exist today if customers back then weren't willing to pay more for a higher quality light.

Consumers have far more disposable income today than 25 years ago, and are more attuned to quality products.

I think Mag has time to make the transition and they probably will. They have significant production and mfg advantages over many competitors.

However the arguments about customers don't want an expensive light, they're too dumb to know the difference, LED technology isn't ready, etc. don't hold water.


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## C4LED (Aug 25, 2005)

I don't see why they can't start right now with an LED replacement for the Solitaire which would easily be superior and wouldn't be difficult to produce.


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## ABTOMAT (Aug 25, 2005)

The thing with the Magcharger just doesn't apply to the LED market. Police buy Magchargers, SL-20Xs, and Tigerlights for $80-100 because they're super-bright rechargables. $90 LED lights like Surefires have a much more limited market. If Mag made one of those, it would be too much for the general consumer, the military and SWAT teams already are loaded up on Surefires, and it's not a type of light likely to be issued by police departments. Sure, they'd sell quite a few, but not enough for such a large company to justify it.

The LED lights Mag would make money off of initially would be replacements for the Solitaire, Mini-Mag, and maybe a 3C-size. Oh, something I haven't heard you guys talking about is new technology _other_ than LED that Mag's working on. They have a patent for a 2xCR123 twist-head tactical-style light. Given the design and operation, I'd guess it's designed to compete more on the low end like a Pelican or Brinkmann instead of Surefire.


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## flashlite (Aug 25, 2005)

I used one of my LED lights almost exclusively on a camping trip last weekend. I probably used it for a total of about an hour, with the longest continuous burn lasting about 30 mins. Everyone I was with was astonished by this "new" technology. When I returned home, I noticed a significant color shift....from a fairly nice white to a very annoying bluish tint.

LED technology has a LONG way to go. If I were a manufacturer, I might be afraid of it.


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## C4LED (Aug 25, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*flashlite said:*
I used one of my LED lights almost exclusively on a camping trip last weekend. I probably used it for a total of about an hour, with the longest continuous burn lasting about 30 mins. Everyone I was with was astonished by this "new" technology. When I returned home, I noticed a significant color shift....from a fairly nice white to a very annoying bluish tint.

LED technology has a LONG way to go. If I were a manufacturer, I might be afraid of it. 

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of LED light did you use?


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## flashlite (Aug 25, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*C4LED said:*
What kind of LED light did you use? 

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a Coast/LED Lenser V2 6 Chip Dual Color Tactical Torch - 5 white 5mm LED's and one red 5mm LED. I'm not sure who made the LED's. An excellent light albeit a little pricey for what it is IMO.


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## Perfectionist (Aug 25, 2005)

Personally I reckon the only reason we have so many "specialist" light manufacturers that supply CPF members additction ..... is precisely because Mag hasn't turned to the LED side !!

More important than quality or even price is distribution network and production capacity ..... Mag has these in place so if/when they do bring out LED flashlights, the competition might as well file for bankruptcy right away .....

Now if something like the LRI Proton appeared in Walmart for a price tag less than 25 bucks ..... Joe Public would finally join CPF !!


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## joema (Aug 25, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*ABTOMAT said:*
...the military and SWAT teams already are loaded up on Surefires...

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes law enforcement has bought many SF and SL lights, ironically the market segment pioneered by Mag. By not having a competitive high end product, Mag ceded market share (maybe permanently) to Surefire and Streamlight.

Similarly by not having LED lights they are now ceding market share to various competitors. They may find it as difficult to get back as what they've already lost to SF and SL.

Edit: And though this topic is Mag's lack of LED lights, the core issue is much bigger than LED, as the SF and SL situation shows.

Even in the average consumer (not law enforcement) market for incandescent lights, Mag has not responded with competitive products. They have no single AA product whatsoever. Compare the AAA Minimag to the PT Blast in cost, performance, etc. 

What is Mag's answer to those? Xenon bulb technology not ready yet?

There are many examples -- it's not just LEDs.


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## aceo07 (Aug 25, 2005)

I wonder how much sales maglite gets on their replacement bulbs.

Before my Inova XO (then others..), I used my maglite 2AA. I probably bought 3 to 4 packages of 2 replacement bulbs during the few years I was using it.


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## cy (Aug 25, 2005)

Ok, with everyone slamming maglite. though I'd point out a few items: 

1. mag uses aerospace quality aluminum in their products.
2. mag C & D series has one of if not the best focusing system anywhere. MR-X X3T noted as one of world's best LED light uses a stock mag reflector.
3. anodize quality is second to none for color anodizing
4. mag quality control & construction is one of the best anywhere
5. mag has one of the best designs anywhere for streamlining production. all body pieces can be anodized without masking. hex screw in switch punches thru anodic film for solid ground in front. D tailcap has ridges to break thru anodic film on tube. C bodies are machined in two tiny spots for ground. 

They've got lion's share of the flashligh market. can't be too wrong by sticking with dinosaur technology


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## SIM37 (Aug 25, 2005)

Some observations.

Macs and Linux are the actual stable and reliable Operating systems on the market but Windows has the largest share.

The best product(s) or range of product doesn't always mean that they'll garner the largest share of the market.

That aside, can anyone give a good "ballpark" figure of how many flashlight or flashlight related product does the "average" flashaholic actually carry?

From my observations on different forums, many flashlight junkies, flashaholics, lightfreaks, torch collectors have quite a large number.

Someone mentioned that CPFers or flashaholics make up 1% of the market, but if this mere 1% each has 10 to 20 flashlights of any type(I know many have much much more) doesn't it make this 1% at least 10-20 times larger than it actually is?

How do you intepret when 99 people buys 1 apple each and the next person buys 20 pears? Does the apple make up 82.5% of the "fruit" market because 99 out of 100 people chose it?

Note, the pear may have only garnered 17.5% of the market share, but it only took 1 buyer to carve out this share.

Has maglite considered this factor? I wouldn't know. But if forums akin to CPF begins popping up faster and faster? Who knows.

Drawing the focus back to my first line about Mac OS. Ipod now has the greatest market share in MP3 players I think. Apple has reacted and innovated that left bigger players like Creative, iRiver and sony (more traditional manufacturers of portable music devices) chasing their tails.

Will the same happen to Maglite Inc?

Lewis.


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## joema (Aug 25, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*cy said:*
...They've got lion's share of the flashligh market. can't be too wrong by sticking with dinosaur technology...

[/ QUOTE ]
They got that market share when it WAS NOT dinosaur technology. 25 years ago Mag-Lites were relatively expensive, high tech flashlights.

They got that market share by being leading edge and taking risks 25 years ago.

Times change. Today their stuff is old tech but Mag hasn't changed with the times. It's a "work of art that workED" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## dougmccoy (Aug 25, 2005)

The sad thing for me in all this is that Maglite was 'The' flashlight to have. It was a product designed and manufactured in the US and was at the front end of desirability for the LEO and government depts. When Don Keller joined Maglite it seemed to me as if Maglite would be innovators and probably come up with more and better designs. What happend to it? Stagnation and products that have been superceded by competitors. 
Sure it is possible to argue that why bother to fix something that aint broke. But that isn't the point! If you dont innovate others will, if you dont stay ahead of the game then eventually you begin to concede sales and territory to the competition. It's happend to Mag already with the LEO market and I'm confident that they will never regain that market share. Although I'm biased, as I actually like and own loads of Mags, I've convereted them all to LED's and wouldn't go back to using them if I had to rely on incandescent bulbs. I would love to see Mag dominate the flashlight market in high end lights or innovative new designs but I dont see it happening!
Doug


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## dano (Aug 25, 2005)

Some of my points:
-Mag had never had a large dominate share of the LEO Market. The LEO Market has been led by Streamlight for years (since the mid 70's).

-Mag isn't run by a dumb or ignorant person. Who's to say that Mag's own product research has indicated that the potential buyer wants an LED? Maybe Mag's own research has indicated that its core consumer base does NOT want an LED based light.

-LED technology isn't as great as it's made out to be by the hardcore LED enthusiast (including bad tints, color rendition, poor throw, ambient washout, cost vs. incans, etc).

-I have several non-light types who don't like LED's, almost always citing the "blue" tint issue or lack of power. 

-Mag controls a significant part of the general light segment. It has synonomous brand recognition, a unique design (which it defends vigorously), a high quality product based upon proven technology and design. Why would Mag jump on the LED bandwagon, when the LED hasn't been sufficently perfected to warrant a high volume of manufacture that Mag could produce?

-dan


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## joema (Aug 25, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*dano said:*
...Why would Mag jump on the LED bandwagon, when the LED hasn't been sufficently perfected to warrant a high volume of manufacture that Mag could produce?...

[/ QUOTE ]
Because Mag doesn't make ONLY high volume consumer-priced products. The Magcharger is relatively low volume and expensive, yet they make it.

Also it's beyond LEDs. Why doesn't Mag make a competitive xenon product? The PT Rage is about the size/cost of a MiniMag, yet produces 4x the output.


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## dougmccoy (Aug 25, 2005)

Dan

I hope my post shows I actually like Mag and admire lots about the company and its products. I never said that it dominated the LEO market but stand by my comments that Maglites were once seen as the best tool for the job and as such were bought in large numbers by many police forces and individual police officers worldwide.
Only a fool would accuse Mag of being being run by a fool or ignorant person. Maglites profitability proves otherwise. However,Maglite wouldn't be the only company to misjudge the marketplace it is in. Maglite's own research may well have been flawed? At any rate I stand by my comments and will let time test my theory about what happens to company's who fail to innovate!

Doug


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## ABTOMAT (Aug 25, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*dano said:*
Some of my points:
-Mag had never had a large dominate share of the LEO Market. The LEO Market has been led by Streamlight for years (since the mid 70's).
-dan 

[/ QUOTE ]

When did Streamlight enter the market, exactly? It would have had to have been with their rechargable. Kel-Lite was the big player through the '70s, along with smaller brands like Pro-Light(the first rechargable) and Bianchi. SL bought Kel-Lite around 1982 and used Kel's last design as the basis for their C/D-cell (later called Excaliber) lights. The first Streamlight C-cell lights I've seen were actually made in Barstow.

As I understand it, Mag took over the non-rechargable LEO market around 1980 because their switch blew away everyone else and Mag's high-speed production undercut the other brands. But after a couple years the rechargables pushed them out, so they came back with the Magcharger in the mid '80s. Nowdays it seems that plastic SLs have taken over around here because of regulations. I guess MCs are still pretty popular in certain locales.

In regards to another post, I honestly am not sure I'd equate Don Keller's working for Mag with lots of new high tech new products being developed. I'm sure he has a hand in some neat stuff, but his big gigs in the past have been stuff that Mags are an improvement over. He also was sued by Mag over itellectual property theft or something a while back. The amazing part is that Mag didn't win.


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## Icebreak (Aug 25, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*pradeep1 said:*
Never assume anyone is smart or stupid. Assume they will do what they will need to do to survive. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Good advice for the big picture.

My apologies for the OT.


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## Double_A (Aug 25, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*cy said:*
Ok, with everyone slamming maglite. though I'd point out a few items: 

1. mag uses aerospace quality aluminum in their products.
2. mag C & D series has one of if not the best focusing system anywhere. MR-X X3T noted as one of world's best LED light uses a stock mag reflector.
3. anodize quality is second to none for color anodizing
4. mag quality control & construction is one of the best anywhere
5. mag has one of the best designs anywhere for streamlining production. all body pieces can be anodized without masking. hex screw in switch punches thru anodic film for solid ground in front. D tailcap has ridges to break thru anodic film on tube. C bodies are machined in two tiny spots for ground. 

They've got lion's share of the flashligh market. can't be too wrong by sticking with dinosaur technology 

[/ QUOTE ]


All that is very true. The problem is the light beam quality sucks and isn't that the whole point of a flashlight to produce light?


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## ABTOMAT (Aug 25, 2005)

Produce light, yes, you nailed it. Mag's official stated gaol is that they make their lights for maximum output (given the technology) and max throw, at the expense of a pretty beam. It might be ugly, but compaired with similar lights with textured reflectors or lenses they outreach them all. One reason I prefer my Magcharger over my SL-35X most of the time.


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## mykall (Aug 26, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*ABTOMAT said:*
It might be ugly, but compaired with similar lights with textured reflectors or lenses they outreach them all. One reason I prefer my Magcharger over my SL-35X most of the time. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a look at the 3D M_g. With the old Krypton bulb it scores a 78 on the FR site for throw, and I can assure you 
that the new Xenon bulb is at LEAST 25% brighter. With a much more focusable hot spot, I'd have to estimate that it 
should score over 100 and doubles as a weapon for a car at under $20. 

The larger lights are looking dated though. I believe that the Mini still has life due to it's impecable switch and design. I'd like to see M_G come out with a derivative that is shorter and has a tail switch + xenon.

M_g isn't afraid of xenon are they?

MB


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## joema (Aug 26, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*mykall said:*
...The larger lights are looking dated though. I believe that the Mini still has life due to it's impecable switch and design...

[/ QUOTE ]
While the larger lights may look physically dated, from a light output standpoint they're more competitive than Mag's smaller lights. In fact there's almost a linear decrease in competitiveness as you move down the Mag heirarchy:

The Mag Charger has tremendous throw and output, even compared to new tech lights. The 4D Mag is weaker on total output (vs newer competitors), but still has great throw relative to newer tech xenon lights.

Classic as the Mini design is, the output/throw has become somewhat poor relative to competition, the AAA is worse, and the Solitare is a total joke.


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## turbodog (Aug 26, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*dano said:*
Some of my points:
-Mag had never had a large dominate share of the LEO Market. The LEO Market has been led by Streamlight for years (since the mid 70's).

-Mag isn't run by a dumb or ignorant person. Who's to say that Mag's own product research has indicated that the potential buyer wants an LED? Maybe Mag's own research has indicated that its core consumer base does NOT want an LED based light.

-LED technology isn't as great as it's made out to be by the hardcore LED enthusiast (including bad tints, color rendition, poor throw, ambient washout, cost vs. incans, etc).

-I have several non-light types who don't like LED's, almost always citing the "blue" tint issue or lack of power. 

-Mag controls a significant part of the general light segment. It has synonomous brand recognition, a unique design (which it defends vigorously), a high quality product based upon proven technology and design. Why would Mag jump on the LED bandwagon, when the LED hasn't been sufficently perfected to warrant a high volume of manufacture that Mag could produce?

-dan 

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.


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## mykall (Aug 26, 2005)

But "handling" wise they decrease with size.
Regardless of what anyone thinks of MM bulbs
the actual light is as reliable as any, but
it is virtue is as a great "handling" little light.
When I compare this to anything I have at or around
it's size in PT, SL...you name it the MM still
"handles" better than any of these.

This is why even w/o a tail switch I'd like to 
see M_g come out with a shorter (working) version
like the minimax offered by Terralux. 

You are correct about the Solitaire. Even though 
it out-throws the Arc and Peak M-horn it's useable
output is laughable. 

MB


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## Vikas Sontakke (Aug 26, 2005)

Mag can manufacture MiniMag, IN USA, and sell for $8 whereas we CPF members, are willing to pay extra $20 to get it chopped and rethreaded!

This alone should tell us that we as a group are crazy bunch of folks to comment on Maglite's business practices 

- Vikas


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## andrewwynn (Aug 26, 2005)

It's all about quantity vs quality. Mag is the 'poorman's' light.. the raw costs are sooooo much more for LED tech they just are reluctant because they don't want their light to cost more than $20.. the problem is.. to really make a 'maglite' kick serious butt you need to put in multiple emitters.. and it gets very expensive.. even $40 is more than double the cost of a typical mag.. and they are all about selling 'basic' lights to the masses by the millions.. probably every add'l $1 in extra cost to the consumer means hundreds of thousands of fewer units sold.

It is completely amazing though talk about the 'elephant in the room' that they don't talk about.. Basically i had a good email in 2003 back and forth with a VP at Mag about it and he said they are letting everybody else do the beta testing and will transition to LED when it's matured enough. 

Mag could EASILY have a 'high end' division where they are selling their own 'modified' mags, but they are waaaay behind the times when it comes to LED.

-awr


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## pradeep1 (Aug 26, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Vikas Sontakke said:*
Mag can manufacture MiniMag, IN USA, and sell for $8 whereas we CPF members, are willing to pay extra $20 to get it chopped and rethreaded!

This alone should tell us that we as a group are crazy bunch of folks to comment on Maglite's business practices 

- Vikas 

[/ QUOTE ]

And then we spend another $40-100 on adding fancy sandwiches and reflectors to make them usable. Crazy bunch, yes.


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## pradeep1 (Aug 26, 2005)

Maglite should just spin off their LED skunkworks (if they have one) into a separate company and market the products under another brand. Maybe that's what Dorcy is? 

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## McGizmo (Aug 26, 2005)

Another mag thread! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I admit I have not read every post but at a glance, I didn't see any reference to mag's new facility?!?! Does anyone know if it is in fact up and operation? Reason I ask is that if and when mag does go with LED's in their line, to be competative and stick with their "program" these lights will need to be manufactured with automated state of the art equipment and at a scale of production that is not housed in some small annexed building. 

[ QUOTE ]
..While grading and other site preparation activities have already started, actual construction of the new manufacturing facility is expected to begin in September with completion in 2005. It is expected to be fully operational and to reach its full economic impact within two to three years, as production ramps up and new products and manufacturing processes are added.


[/ QUOTE ] from HERE .

If and when mag makes a move, it will likely be in a scale that has not been seen to date in LED flashlights. As others have alluded to, I believe flashlight business at the scale of mag's is business that most of us simply don't understand. 

I have only worked for small privately owned companies so I could be off base but it has been my experience that certain things and projects don't happen unless you have the inhouse capabilities and people to make them happen. Heck, for a company like mag, a particular light might not make it to market because they can't come up with a cost effctive and viable means of packaging it and distributing it! A zip lock bag in a FedEx envelope doesn't cut it. They have employement opportunites for engineers at present. These engineers are not needed for flashlight design but more complicated and sophisticated designs and projects; automation and packaging among them.

"Is Maglite afraid of LED technology?" I doubt fear is opperative and I am certain they are aware of the technology. They no doubt have seen the spams from off shore manufacturers offering pages of LED lights starting at wholesale of less than $2 in min qty orders of 500 pieces. To respond to this kind of competition is certainly not trivial given the cost of doing business domestically VS off shore. How many man hours of labor can you put in a part that you sell for less than $2, at a profit? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

With the raw materials and manufacturing base moving to China and elsewhere, realistically, at some point I would not be surprised if a company like mag simply could not compete. Their only hope, IMHO, is for better automation, greater efficiencies and the momentem of their current market share. Keep in mind that a real expense at this level is in marketing and set up of distribution systems and connections. It may already be too late. Look at the HID light from CostCo! <$80!!!! Could Mag or any domestic manufacturer compete with a light like that at that price? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

The price of raw materials is going up because the volume of these is all moving away from us. Brass and aluminium have gone up. I recently contacted a specialty machine shop for the possibility of some Ti parts being machined, the manager told me that 5 years ago, he could buy Ti for $6/lb. Today it costs $40/lb.

I think the point I am trying to make here is that for a company like mag, the LED's represent a small and possibly even insignificant cost or consideration to their position in the market in terms of cost of doing business as well as viability of expansion and change or venturing into new products. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif


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## pradeep1 (Aug 26, 2005)

Maglite is not *that* big of a business. You see billion dollar companies turn on a dime to respond to competitive pressures. I am eagerly awaiting Maglite's LED response, but won't hold my breath that we will see anything anytime soon.


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## McGizmo (Aug 26, 2005)

OK,
I stand corrected! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## Dae (Aug 30, 2005)

I got many feedbacks saying some LED(including Luxeon) lights are much brighter than Incan. ones.


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## Analog (Aug 30, 2005)

I've heard that Maglite will have a booth at the 2006 Shot Show, great place to introduce new products? Guess we will have to wait and see. New 700,000 square foot facility, don't think that's an indication of being afraid.


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## Ben H (Nov 11, 2005)

I emailed Maglite this week asking why they don't have an LED flashlight yet and when they are going to have one. My first question didn't get answered, but they did answer the second question giving an answer in the form of what year and quarter. I'd love to see them make it.

Without further ado, here the reply I got from Mag:


Benjamin:
We plan to introduce a line of LEDs sometime during the first quarter 
of next year.

Don


There you have it guys.

Ben


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## JonSidneyB (Nov 11, 2005)

I don't think they are afraid at all.

I think they are going to set back, let everyone test different ideas and methods. Let public domain knowledge accumulate. Find what ideas work and don't work.

Then make the move into this arena without any of the work that those who paved the way put into it. I actually think its kind of sad. They will get all the benifits without having done the work and investment.


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## sniper (Nov 11, 2005)

greenLED said:


> [ QUOTE ]
> I'll say this: the day Maglite comes out with a LED product, I'll buy it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I like Maglites. ( QUOTE )
> 
> Yup: Well said!
> ...


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## SolarFlare (Nov 11, 2005)

I've been here a short time in person. I've been here a while as a lurker. I was here in this flashaholism before this forum existed. I've never seen a post by a Mag rep, or an "official" mag post :thinking: . Why do mag care? they shouldn't theres about 5 billion people on the planet, this forum represents about 0.0000000% etc of the population. They sell an thats it


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## Ray_of_Light (Nov 11, 2005)

Lately, I have been looking at the products that MAG competitors have put on the market. I have found many LED flashlights from Energizer and Varta, but they are based on 5 mm LEDs. I havent's seen yet any big brand name Luxeon light. 
May be MAG is skipping the 5 mm LED flashlight. At present, it would be difficult to offer a 3D Mag with a good bin 3 watt LED, with a reasonably good regulator, for 20$. 
Also, when you compare side by side a Luxeon light with an incandescent one with the same light flux, the LED suffer from a lack of throw, and a "wash" effect due to its uneven spectral distribution. 
The advantages of LEDs, like their long life, regulation, ruggedness, are not immediately evident to the non-flashaholic user, while the price tag yes, it is.
Eventually, we will see MAGLEDs. 

Anthony


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## SolarFlare (Nov 11, 2005)

maybe MAGLEDS but I doubt it, why? they don't need to. MAG light is an established brand they knock out flashlights, they don't have competitors in their market. Nobody produces lights like mag do. I have yet to see a producer that can compete? . Why should I spend $300 on a light that runs for 20 minutes, when I can get this one that projects the shape of a spring on my target? See we notice that, Joe Bloggs doesn't. Mag are sorted they don't "need" to do anything, they have their market, and nobody else can touch it. It's only us lot that think standard mags are crap, but then the majority of this forumm have probably got several $100's if not $1000's of dollars worth of lights


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## JonSidneyB (Nov 12, 2005)

They seem to be concerned.

They have sued many companies that make a light with little concern if they win or now. They just drain the other companies funds that is defending themself.

The really seem to enjoy sueing companies that use leds. The list is very very very long. 

Its the silly lawsuits that caused alot a mag phobia around here.

Actually they will have an led light, that I understand is a done deal.


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## Double_A (Nov 13, 2005)

Mag will have an LED light when it's a good business decision that will make them money. 

That will happen when the the majority of the public perceives a significant advantage (valid or not) to LEDS, and they can make money selling one at a price the public will bear.

On a personal level I'm disappointed they have not come out with one. I think the 2 or 3 C-cell size and form would be ideal, surely their marketing people can hype up something.


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## offroadcmpr (Nov 14, 2005)

What size do you think their first LED light will be?

My opinion is that their smaller AA and AAA lights need the most catching up to do. So I would think they would start their.


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## Hookd_On_Photons (Nov 14, 2005)

Dorcy seems to be the current leader in production Luxeon flashlights for the unenlightened, non-flashaholic masses.

Mag Instrument Inc. has most likely been waiting for Luxeon technology to mature. Lumileds has improved their manufacturing process to the point where R bin Lux1s are common, and are showing up in inexpensive, mass-produced flashlights. So the opportunity is there for Mag Instrument to offer a line of high-quality Luxeon flashlights.

I'm sure they've watched how sales are affected when large retailers like Sears, Target, and Wal-Mart offer LED flashlights beside Maglites. They've no doubt also noticed the LED upgrades for Maglites from Nite-Ize, Diamond, and so forth. I wouldn't be surprised if they employ somebody to lurk on this forum as well.

I would guess they'll probably offer LED Minimags and Solitaires. LEDs excel at efficiency, and non-flashaholics tend to be very impressed by 20-30 lumens radiating from a 2AA sized flashlight. The lights would probably be direct drive, or with a simple boost circuit. Complex regulation circuits would add more cost, and most users are ignorant of the advantages of a well-regulated flashlight. They might offer a direct drive 3-D or 3-C Luxeon model to compete with Dorcy's Super 1 Watt 3-D, but their biggest potential market would probably be with the small lights.

I doubt they would try to produce anything to compete with the likes of Surefire, Streamlight, Pelican, and other high-end LED light manufacturers. That's not Mag's niche. Their appeal is on the basis of price, reliability, and ubiquity. But who knows, maybe they'll prove us wrong and introduce an HA3, li-ion, fully regulated Lux3 "Magcharger Ultra"? :shrug: Heck, I'd probably buy one...


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## flashlite (Nov 14, 2005)

Ben H said:


> Without further ado, here the reply I got from Mag:
> 
> 
> Benjamin:
> ...


 
Hold on to your seats people. LED flashlights are about to become mainstream.


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## Hookd_On_Photons (Nov 14, 2005)

They're already mainstream: just check out the flashlight section at Sears and Target.

Wal-mart's LED flashlight offerings are still pretty meager in comparison, but that's probably because of their strict pricing. Only Dorcy seems to have made any headway into Wally World, and that's most likely because their production costs are so low.

But your point is well taken. Maglite's brand recognition and widespread distribution will give their new offerings a significant advantage. Most consumers wouldn't recognize "Dorcy" or "Inova", but "Maglite" is synonymous with "flashlight".


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## JonSidneyB (Nov 14, 2005)

While all their lawsuits has slowed progress in this industry.


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## flashlite (Nov 14, 2005)

I suppose the expiration of Mags patent on December 31, 2005 and completion of their new facility has something to do with their new LED offerings this spring. It still doesn't look like there's been any action Congressman Baca's bill to extend the Maglite patent for another two years.

I guess this means that if Mag's LED lights have something new and unique to offer and it's patentable, we shouldn't expect any new innovation from them for another 17 years?


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## JonSidneyB (Nov 15, 2005)

They prefer slow change.

It will not surprise me if they try and patent things in the public domain. Then use lawsuits that they cannot win to drain other companies of resources.

You can't protect a cylinder...but that does not stop them from trying.

Buried in the archives there is tons of information on odd activity and it is not hard to find it elsewhere.


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## LEDninja (Nov 16, 2005)

I noticed a big jump in LED offerings in the local hardware and department stores in the last 3 months. All volume flashlight manufacturers except Mag Instruments have multiple LED models out. Maglite will follow sooner or later.

When Maglite finally offers good LED flashlights it would get BORING for modders. There will be a lot less incentive to mod an LEDmag than to convert an incan. mag to LED. Think of all the drop-in manufacturers that will go out of business.


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## sniper (Nov 21, 2005)

O.K., everybody; All together now, SING!

That old Black Maglight has me in its spell, 
That old Black Maglight that shines so well...
Icy fingers up and down my spine, 
MONSTERS in the lake when I had too much wine... 

With sincere apologies to Johnny Mercer, and Louie Prima and Keeley Smith , who performed the very best rendition.


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## Pellidon (Nov 21, 2005)

LEDninja said:


> I noticed a big jump in LED offerings in the local hardware and department stores in the last 3 months. All volume flashlight manufacturers except Mag Instruments have multiple LED models out. Maglite will follow sooner or later.
> 
> When Maglite finally offers good LED flashlights it would get BORING for modders. There will be a lot less incentive to mod an LEDmag than to convert an incan. mag to LED. Think of all the drop-in manufacturers that will go out of business.



I don't think it will get boring. Modders are a bunch who can't leave well enough alone. Always have to tinker with something. Any light Mag comes out with will become a platform for more mad experiments. 

What we should do is before the new rollout offer a recycling service for old, nasty, inferior Incandescent Mags to get a cheap mod base resource.


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## greenLED (Nov 21, 2005)

Can't find Maglites at the local Targets... that's got to have drawn attention to Maglite. Unless, of course (conspiracy hat on :evil... never mind. 

I'm glad they're coming out with LED lights.


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## Crossbar (Nov 21, 2005)

Can someone fill in a still-flashlight-newbie-but-learning-everyday what patient Mag had and is now about to expire?


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## ABTOMAT (Nov 24, 2005)

The important patented aspects of Mag's marketed designs are the swiches and focusing mechanism. Other patents for stuff not sold includes a pencil light, a rechargable Mini-Mag, a tactical light, and other weird stuff. I don't know which ones are set to expire.

Worse for the industry is the fact that the overall appearance is trademarked in a vague way. Even in case they'd never win, they sue companies making similar lights. The legal costs usually force the other company to drop the product.


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## DiamondLED (Mar 9, 2006)

*Re: Is Maglite afraid of LED technology? New Maglite LED Brochure & Prices here FYI*

For everyone that's been asking for the new Maglite 3 Watt LED bulb replacements and 3 Watt LED flashlight offerings from Maglite themselves at the SHOT show last month, I've posted a link here for y'all with the new PDF Brochure from them.

http://www.flash-lights.com/maglite/maglite-flashlights/new-maglite-led/MAG-LED-MAR-9-2006.pdf 

Prices: http://www.flash-lights.com/maglite/maglite-flashlights/new-maglite-led/Maglite-LED-prices.htm


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## ABTOMAT (Mar 9, 2006)

*Re: Is Maglite afraid of LED technology? New Maglite LED Brochure & Prices here FYI*

Well that probably settles it, notice it says "3 watt LED* (*as rated by supplier)". So they may be running these things at 1/4W and calling them whatever they want.


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## waion (Mar 9, 2006)

*Re: Is Maglite afraid of LED technology? New Maglite LED Brochure & Prices here FYI*

I'm very much looking forwards to playing with a stock maglite LED flashlight.


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## frasera (Apr 19, 2006)

wow, pretty kewl drop in solution. i'll get a 4d with led included for 30 or whatever. thats sweet. thats the ultimate, i wonder what kind of crazy run time that thing will have

3cell aa is kinda freaky though heh. chain two together and u got nunchucks!

everyone wants one...its a perfect dual purpose flash light, giant blinding light and a personal clubbing weapon lol u know its true..on a subconscious level heh

led esp one that self contained is probably pretty shock resistant. good clubbin


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## mattyg (Apr 19, 2006)

Anyone know when these are coming out in the stores?


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## Brighteyez (Apr 19, 2006)

While it won't answer your question, it wouldn't be in stores until after Mag starts shipping them. And then, only if a store deems it feasible (i.e. Will it sell?) to stock the item. While I think the LED MagLites will be a no-brainer, I suspect that the LED PR upgrades may not be as abundantly available in retail stores since the price point may scare off a lot of mainstream consumers, and the size of the 6.5x5" packaging may make them a bit more vulnerable to shoplifting (hence requiring additional measures for retail display, like those locked J-hooks that Wal*Mart and Target uses.)



mattyg said:


> Anyone know when these are coming out in the stores?


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## a4toronto (Apr 19, 2006)

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/4led-maglites-coming-in-may-168220.php



> Here is the schedule we plan to use to deliver our Mag-LED lights: 2, 3 & 4 cell D Maglites in Black will be available in May or June LED upgrade kits for the D cells will be available in June or July 2 and 3 cell AA Mag-LEDs will be available in July or August No upgrade kits will be produced for the AA and AAA lights. The new products will be found in most Hardware and discount stores.


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## Brighteyez (Apr 19, 2006)

Gizmodo? I think I'd wait for some corroboration from a source with a little more credibiltiy like maybe the National Enquirer 

I tend to dismiss any web site or forum posting that starts with "[Company Name] promised", it's invariably the sign of an ill-informed geek that spends too much time on the web.



a4toronto said:


> http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/4led-maglites-coming-in-may-168220.php


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## Empath (Apr 19, 2006)

solarwinds said:


> Simple question ------ why doesn't Maglite upgrade to LEDs and make them standard on their flashlights? It is the future of lighting, is it not? Why stick with old incandescent technology, and all the disadvantages of it such as poor battery life, poor bulb life, and bulbs blowing out on impact?



The thread has been resurrected, and the question has been asked many times. What I keep hearing has little to do with what appears to be Mag's marketing philosophy. Mag produces a reasonably priced quality product that appeals to the general public as the top of the line in it's class.

We of CPF often times find ourselves comparing the product to the niche marketing with which we have come to appreciate. Often times that niche is so targeted that it stretches the application of cross-purposed power sources, short-lived lamps, and features so exclusive that the production costs associated with the limited production is prohibitive to those of limited finances. While we may not think about it that way, the Surefires, Streamlights, Tigerlights, UK, Pelican and most others we've come to appreciate are niche products, with features we envy. Basically, we ain't normal. 

Mag's marketing philosophy doesn't target the production of lights that will appeal to niche buyer. Their lights, when offered to specialized markets, have also been targeted to the general public with a "this is good for everyone" appeal. The only way they could offer a light at a lower price bracket, with features of the higher priced lights is by aiming for manufacturing of millions, rather than the hundreds or thousands characteristic of the one's producing such narrow-focus-markets lights we want. That, they couldn't do, unless the general market wanted it.

Until recently, and with good cause, the LED light has been seen by the public as a less than optimal light source, a novelty or a limited purpose "cute" product. The previously available offerings on the retailer's shelves like Brinkmann's Longlife or Dorcy's 4AA LED light has shown promise as useful, but not competitive to the utility of the trusted incandescent krypton and halogen flashlights. The multiple LED lights would give them "bright", but not throw. The hybrids are viewed as unusual, lacking the simplicity of a simple on/off switch; neither 100% permanent lamps, nor an easy to acquire replacement lamp. In addition, they lacked the form factor the public expects from a flashlight. Don't be fooled. The general market is not inclined to abandon the form factor of the time honored standard form of flashlights, nor are they inclined to embrace the use of camera batteries as a replacement for their standard general-purpose sizes.

Only recently has the LED products capable of challenging the utility of previous flashlights began appearing on the retailers shelves. Only recently has the general buying public likely have given thought to an updated technology Mag. We may have been waiting and calling for an LED mag; but we're not normal. The general public has just barely started considering an LED as a viable lamp alternative.

So, "is Maglite afraid of LED technology"? No. The time simply wasn't right. It was too early. Now is just about right; perhaps just slightly early.


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## Brighteyez (Apr 19, 2006)

Very appropriately put.



Empath said:


> So, "is Maglite afraid of LED technology"? No. The time simply wasn't right. It was too early. Now is just about right; perhaps just slightly early.


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## barnabe (Apr 20, 2006)

IMHO, "big" maglite (C and D cells) and "little" maglite (AA or AAA celles) are quite different.
Pockets mag have to face a bigger challenge because there are numerous led flashlights that easily beats those minimag, and in quite a short time it's very easy to see that the light become dim and yellow, and can't face even the cheapest led flashlight you could buy in a any shop, maybe not if you consider the look.

Big maglite are good flashlights (but too large and heavy for me), and thanks to the D cells (or even C) they can run for a much longer time. A led flashlight that can beat those maglite are a little bit unusual. And because of the C or D cells, comparing the run time is more difficult as well (you have to wait for a very long time...).


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## RoyJ (Apr 20, 2006)

Empath said:


> Mag produces a reasonably priced quality product that appeals to the general public as the top of the line in it's class.


 
Man, you hit the bull'seye on that one.

What we consider as crap, it's exotic in the public's eye. Out of the 6 billion or so alive today, no one hardly give a crap about flashlights; it's just something to keep in the drawer and pull out when it gets dark.

Walk down the street and ask what "Luxeon" is, I'll give you credit if 1% of the people can answer that question. Mag didn't need to dump money into LED design because no one knows, or cares about, what regulation or beam quality means. Most don't even think twice about runtime either.


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## Brighteyez (Apr 20, 2006)

Actually I kind of ran into the opposite of that the other day with a colleague who had a G2. Since the bulb and reflector was all an integrated assembly, he thought that the P60 module was an LED. He was a little surprised to learn that it didn't, and a bit alarmed when he found out how much a P60 lamp assembly costs.



RoyJ said:


> Mag didn't need to dump money into LED design because no one knows, or cares about, what regulation or beam quality means.


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