# LED Lenser p7 Questions



## Benno (Nov 11, 2008)

Hi everyone. I recently bought an LED Lenser P7 flashlight. I have a few questions which I'm hoping someone can answer, keeping in mind this is my first ever 'expensive' flashlight, and I'm totally new to this:twothumbs.

1) Will the flashlight be just as bright with NiMH's and Alkalines? 

2) Is it possible to use rechargeable NiMH's in the P7?

I'm sure I'll think of some more questions as we go...

Thanks.


----------



## Mr Floppy (Nov 11, 2008)

1) I use NiMH batteries. Its brighter for longer. Initially alkalines are brighter but it doesnt take long before they dim. (You wont really notice the initial difference anyway)

2) Yes. Its not a question I asked when I got my P7. I didnt see anywhere in the instructions that said not to use NiMH or alkalines exclusively. Then again, I didnt get any english instructions in my box.

:welcome:


----------



## germanium (Nov 11, 2008)

Initial brightness will be slightly brighter with alkaline but that goes away very quickly (within 2 minutes). Beyond that the NIMH is brighter & lasts much longer at near full brightness. Bear in mind that for the first quarter hour you would not be able to see the difference in side by side comparison. beyond that you probably would see it though. This is one area that you should ignore the manufacturers recomendation on. 

Lithium AAA's last the longest with the highest brightness of all but may stress the internal componants in a way that will shorten thier life as it will be in a constant overdriven state for a long period of time. NIMH batteries will not do that.


----------



## Kilovolt (Nov 11, 2008)

Actually instructions do say not to use rechargeable batteries because of 'different electrical values'. 

In any case I understood that it means not to use rechargeable batteries with a voltage higher than the alkalines (1.5V) so NiMH's (1.2V) should be allright. I use them in my P7 without any problem.

Were they thinking of 10440 Li-ion's when saying 'no rechargeables' ? :thinking:


----------



## shadowjk (Nov 11, 2008)

Remember that alkaline and nimh volts aren't measured the same way. Alkaline starts off at 1.5V but quickly drops, especially under any kind of load, like a flashlight. Alkaline probably goes below 1.2V rather quickly in that light. Nimh on the other hand will be providing more volts for longer under load... Some lights are designed for the weak performance of alkaline, and might not cope with the higher performance of nimh. Personally I wouldn't worry though.


----------



## germanium (Nov 11, 2008)

shadowjk said:


> Remember that alkaline and nimh volts aren't measured the same way. Alkaline starts off at 1.5V but quickly drops, especially under any kind of load, like a flashlight. Alkaline probably goes below 1.2V rather quickly in that light. Nimh on the other hand will be providing more volts for longer under load... Some lights are designed for the weak performance of alkaline, and might not cope with the higher performance of nimh. Personally I wouldn't worry though.


 

It is really not a problem in this case. The LED will be better driven by NIMH but not overdriven. Lithium batteries on the other hand will overdrive the LED so avoid these if you want you light to last for years.


----------



## Marduke (Nov 11, 2008)

germanium said:


> It is really not a problem in this case. The LED will be better driven by NIMH but not overdriven. Lithium batteries on the other hand will overdrive the LED so avoid these if you want you light to last for years.



Many direct drive lights (ie nearly all LED Lenser) count on the higher internal resistance of alkaline cells. NiMH have a lower internal resistance, and therefore often overdrive a direct drive light whose poor design relies on alkalines.


----------



## germanium (Nov 12, 2008)

Marduke said:


> Many direct drive lights (ie nearly all LED Lenser) count on the higher internal resistance of alkaline cells. NiMH have a lower internal resistance, and therefore often overdrive a direct drive light whose poor design relies on alkalines.


 
Not having any problems here with NIMH. Even with the resister in the tail bypassed in high mode it still runs cooler than some of my other lights that run 4 watt luxeons (Inova T3 & T4). I also still get really good run times. Evidence that it is not woefully overdriven. Most people are not going to bypass the tail resister & the light will hardly even get luke warm with the resister intact with NIMH batteries.

LED Lensers claim is that the light would niether be as bright or last as long with rechargables. Both these assertions have been totally proven wrong in some of the run time graphs I've seen.


----------



## Marduke (Nov 12, 2008)

germanium said:


> Evidence that it is not woefully overdriven.
> 
> LED Lensers claim is that the light would niether be as bright or last as long with rechargables. Both these assertions have been totally proven wrong in some of the run time graphs I've seen.



Evidence that it does not have proper heatsinking to conduct the heat to the exterior of the light. A light SHOULD get warm on such a high mode. If it doesn't, it has major issues.

LL makes a lot of claims. I have yet to see one that is accurate in any way, shape, or form.


----------



## Mr Floppy (Nov 12, 2008)

Well, I found some english instructions in my box for the P7 (they were on the reverse side of the german ones )

It says this under batteries:


> Never try to recharge batteries or use fresh and used batteries together. Always change all batteries at the same time and use high quality batteries and the same type only. *Because of different electrical values the use of accumulators and high current batteries is not allowed*. If you intend to not use this lamp for a longer time, take the batteries out to prevent damage by leaking batteries. Discharged batteries must be taken out. Used batteries and accumulators are hazardous waste and must be disposed according to the national legislation



I've highlighted the bit which I think might cause some debate. I have no idea what an accumulator is. Something lost in translation perhaps? I could transcribe the german if that helps?

Personally, I've been using NiMH in these pretty much from the day I got it. I've used alkalines a couple of times when I dont have a recharger with me. I personally haven't seen any ill effects of using NiMH batteries but I've only had this thing a few months. I have been using it pretty much as my EDC though.


----------



## shadowjk (Nov 12, 2008)

accumulator = rechargeable battery


----------



## Art (Nov 12, 2008)

Marduke said:


> Evidence that it does not have proper heatsinking to conduct the heat to the exterior of the light. A light SHOULD get warm on such a high mode. If it doesn't, it has major issues.
> 
> LL makes a lot of claims. I have yet to see one that is accurate in any way, shape, or form.



Can you explain this?
I actually like the fact that I can use the P7 for very long and it doesnt have any heat in it. Last weekend I had to use it on max for 2h nearlly continuos and the light was cool as it was turned off.

I use 1000mah nimh and it is great , the alkalines dont last very long and after 1h you end up with two modes with same power 

Regards


----------



## Marduke (Nov 12, 2008)

Art said:


> Can you explain this?
> I actually like the fact that I can use the P7 for very long and it doesnt have any heat in it. Last weekend I had to use it on max for 2h nearlly continuos and the light was cool as it was turned off.
> 
> I use 1000mah nimh and it is great , the alkalines dont last very long and after 1h you end up with two modes with same power
> ...



If a high output light doesn't get warm on the outside, that means the heat is building up inside and is not able to find a thermal path to the exterior of the light. Essentially, it is cooking the LED.


----------



## Art (Nov 12, 2008)

Marduke said:


> If a high output light doesn't get warm on the outside, that means the heat is building up inside and is not able to find a thermal path to the exterior of the light. Essentially, it is cooking the LED.



That is one of the first things I saw LL claiming as their optimum thermal dissipation ... but since you here don´t like any of their claims never mind... 

http://www.ledlenserusa.com/technology.php just click in thermal management 
Or is this just another bad publicity part?
Can´t it just be that the LL are actually heating up less then the others? :thinking:


----------



## Marduke (Nov 12, 2008)

Art said:


> That is one of the first things I saw LL claiming as their optimum thermal dissipation ... but since you here don´t like any of their claims never mind...
> 
> http://www.ledlenserusa.com/technology.php just click in thermal management
> Or is this just another bad publicity part?
> Can´t it just be that the LL are actually heating up less then the others? :thinking:



Thermal management = heatsink. In the past LL hasn't used a sufficient one. If the did now (which would be a big improvement), the heat would be transferred to the light exterior. An internal heatsink which does not get rid of the heat is nearly as pointless as having no heatsink at all to begin with.

As for their marketing, take it with a grain of salt. Their "patented electronics" for example equals "direct drive with a drop resistor " in their advertising language.


----------



## JBorneu (Nov 12, 2008)

So, Marduke, you are basically saying that the heatsink on the Malkoff M60L modules must be pointless because they are desinged to run in a polymer light without cooking the LED?


----------



## Marduke (Nov 12, 2008)

JBorneu said:


> So, Marduke, you are basically saying that the heatsink on the Malkoff M60L modules must be pointless because they are desinged to run in a polymer light without cooking the LED?



It's best ran in the 6P or G2 with aluminum head, or the G2 Nitrolon for shorter times. However, he does provide enough material there so there won't be any permanent damage.

But yes, the G2 Nitrolon is not a good candidate for high output LED's because of the inability to shed heat. It's a shortfall of the light, not the dropins. Malkoff did the best he could in the space allotted, and it's a better design than what anyone else has come up with.


----------



## Swedpat (Nov 12, 2008)

Mr Floppy said:


> 1) I use NiMH batteries. Its brighter for longer. Initially alkalines are brighter but it doesnt take long before they dim. (You wont really notice the initial difference anyway)
> 
> 2) Yes. Its not a question I asked when I got my P7. I didnt see anywhere in the instructions that said not to use NiMH or alkalines exclusively. Then again, I didnt get any english instructions in my box.
> 
> :welcome:


 


germanium said:


> Initial brightness will be slightly brighter with alkaline but that goes away very quickly (within 2 minutes). Beyond that the NIMH is brighter & lasts much longer at near full brightness. Bear in mind that for the first quarter hour you would not be able to see the difference in side by side comparison. beyond that you probably would see it though. This is one area that you should ignore the manufacturers recomendation on.
> 
> Lithium AAA's last the longest with the highest brightness of all but may stress the internal componants in a way that will shorten thier life as it will be in a constant overdriven state for a long period of time. NIMH batteries will not do that.


 

I can confirm this. Some years ago when Maglite came out with their LED-versions I considered to buy a 2 or 3AA Mini LED Maglite. Then the salesman adviced me to get the Ledlenser 3AAA Quadrat light instead, which I did. I was quite impressed about this little light which was brighter than my Maglite 2D. Soon I noticed that the brightness decread pretty fast from the start with fresh batteries, and I needed to replace the alkalines frequently to hold the brightness. (as with usual crypton-bulbs and alkalines)

I still have the Ledlenser in my own but have placed 1000mAh NiMh cells instead. The difference is substantial; Even after hours I am hardly aware of a brightness fall. Regulation is a good idea, but not very necessary when using NiMh batteries I think, because the output is very even.

Regards, Patric


----------



## jupello (Nov 12, 2008)

Since there seems to be so much debate on the heatsinking of P7, here's a picture of it:





(Picture taken from here ..there's also NIMH vs. alkaline runtime graphs if someone's interested)

To me that looks pretty ok..I would have made the center piece where the led is sitting little bit thicker tho.


----------



## SureAddicted (Nov 12, 2008)

Marduke, do you own any LL lights?


----------



## Marduke (Nov 12, 2008)

SureAddicted said:


> Marduke, do you own any LL lights?



Bought, regretted, and sold the junk.

Take the P7 specs for instance. The "heatsink" is laughable, and the claims are ridiculous. 130 hour (7800 minute) advertised runtime, 75 minute actual. That's less than 1% of the advertised runtime.


----------



## SureAddicted (Nov 12, 2008)

Marduke said:


> Bought, regretted, and sold the junk.



You've been taking interest in LL lights for all the wrong reasons. If you don't like them that's fine, but you need to GET OVER IT!!
Some could say your bordering on the verge of trolling.


----------



## L.E.D. (Nov 13, 2008)

Marduke said:


> As for their marketing, take it with a grain of salt. Their "patented electronics" for example equals "direct drive with a drop resistor " in their advertising language.



Uh, no dude. Those are the old ones. All of the new LL's are indeed semi-regulated. It would be nice if you quit spoiling the reputation of the -NEW- LL line.


----------



## L.E.D. (Nov 13, 2008)

Also, the runtimes for all the new models are for the low mode. Still really misleading, as they don't state that it's for the low mode, some may think it will put out 167 lm for that 130 hrs. The runtimes for all the old models are just ridiculous..

Flashaholics, though, should know better, at least enlightened and up. If you didn't know better, you might as well be unenlightened.


----------



## Marduke (Nov 13, 2008)

L.E.D. said:


> Also, the runtimes for all the new models are for the low mode. Still really misleading, as they don't state that it's for the low mode, some may think it will put out 167 lm for that 130 hrs. The runtimes for all the old models are just ridiculous..
> 
> Flashaholics, though, should know better, at least enlightened and up. If you didn't know better, you might as well be unenlightened.




Their "new" runtimes are identical to the "old" runtimes, using the same definition of the theoretical maximum that an alkaline will provide a imperceptible glow visible only under a microscope.

Flashaholics do know better. The uninformed consumers are the only ones buying into any of it.


----------



## L.E.D. (Nov 13, 2008)

Strange, Brightguy lists the P14 (4AA) at 180 hours specifically on low mode. Even on low, I'm doubting it will still be bright after 180 hrs, does anyone know where to find a runtime graph for the low mode of a T7/P7 or a P14? I think the P6 (2AA) uses the imperceptible glow logic though, they state around 50 hours, and it's a single mode light. Their marketing / advertising is pretty krummy, but they're definitely not the worst lights out their IMO, and don't deserve the extreme and almost pointless harshness from some.


----------



## Yapo (Nov 13, 2008)

Yeah, their advertised runtimes is really all they need to fix up...maybe take off a few 0's for some. 

Although i guess its probably cause their runtimes arent estimates to 50% brightness like how most others are.

I just had another look at their advertised runtimes for their new range and they dont seem very consistent. 

Like the P5 running on 1 AA with 4.8hr runtime doesnt seem ridiculous but then you have the slightly brighter P6 on 2 AA with a 45.8hr runtime. 

And then you also have the variations in specs from different sites:
http://www.zweibrueder.com/ENG/produkte/html_highperformance/highperformance_start.php
http://www.ledlenserusa.com/products.php


----------



## jupello (Nov 13, 2008)

It's strange how the talk about LL's always goes just into their marketed runtimes. That does not make the actual product any worse. Remember that when someone actually buys one, he/she most likely does it because of the nice variable optics that most other manufacturers just cant provide at the moment. And the overall quality and brightness of these new lights seems to be pretty good too.

I would have to disagree about these new 4-cell LL lights having any kind of electronic regulation tho. I'm pretty sure that they just have some sort resistor regulation in them.. but obviously the 1-cell lights are exception to this. And people should not automatically see the absence of electronic regulation as a negative thing only. Not having circuit board inside your light means that there is one less fragile part that could fail, and it saves some energy too. Sure, some do value the ruler-flat regulation for extended periods over those things.. but I think most people are just fine with the pretty flat discharge curve of the NIMH's, or even the less flat curve of alkalines


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 13, 2008)

The way these lights focus looks really good, with there spot to a really nice 'clean' looking spread. 
Anyone wish to comment?


----------



## Kilovolt (Nov 13, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> The way these lights focus looks really good, with there spot to a really nice 'clean' looking spread.
> Anyone wish to comment?


 
Actually I like the possibility of adjusting the size of the spot of my P7 at a certain distance while I am a bit disappointed with the flood: the illumination is even but not as intense as one would expect based on the power of the hotspot. IMO the optics do a better job when concentrating the beam than when spreading it.


----------



## Mr Floppy (Nov 13, 2008)

shadowjk said:


> accumulator = rechargeable battery


Yeah, that would make sense but still a little puzzled by the statement. 

*Because of different electrical values the use of accumulators and high current batteries is not allowed*

That could mean dont mix your rechargable battery and your high current battery types. They have different voltages.


----------



## Kilovolt (Nov 13, 2008)

I have just asked the question by email to the customer service of the manufacturer Zweibrueder in Germany. I have specifically mentioned the use of AAA NiMH cells referring to the not too clear instructions and asking for an explanation.

I will keep you posted as to their answer.


----------



## Art (Nov 13, 2008)

Yesterday tested again my P7 on high for 30mins and the head where the heatsink is gets a bit hot but I think its a maximum of 30ºC not more.
The other day I did not feel it because I was outside and it was freezing so it probably cooled the P7 down.

Runtimes apart I still dont see why there is so bad feedback of LL here... only thing I understand is that older models where really bad, but since neve saw them I can not understand.

Regards,


----------



## YAK-28 (Nov 13, 2008)

i emailed their usa website a week ago, still no answer.


----------



## flashlife (Nov 13, 2008)

I EDC an old LL David 19, 1 Watt, running a single Energizer AA lithium. I use the light everyday, walking the dog, backyard, etc and although I haven't done a formal runtime plot, I have only used about one battery per year.

It may be that their 3 or 4 battery lights are "resistor regulated" but the David series single cell lights use a boost converter...and it likes AA lithiums really well. Long-enough runtime, good beam from the TIR optics, and reliable forward clicky with momentary on. $30 at Fry's Electronics

I have no experience with the LL P series.


----------



## gilkersA7 (Nov 14, 2008)

For my p14 LL, will an energizer rechargeable 1.2 V, 2500 mAh battery work fine, or should it be more like 1000 mAh?


----------



## Kilovolt (Nov 14, 2008)

Can't complain at all, it took LED Lenser in Germany exactly one hour to answer my message this morning:

QUOTE

It is right what you found in the manual. Accumulators are not allowed in the lamp.
The thing is that accumulators and high current batteries can have different electrical values. That means that the LED might get a higher current. The result is that the LED 
gets more bright but also more hot. But high temperature destroys the structure of the LED-Chip (LED-Chips are like a kind of computerchip that also must be protected concerning heat). 
So we tell the customers to use only alkaline batteries so that the customer has got a good product for many many years.

UNQUOTE

So rechargeable batteries drive the LED too hard because of their flat discharge curve.

I choose to read the message in this way: if you use your light at high level for extended periods of time you should avoid rechargeables; they are acceptable (not approved by the manufacturer though) for long use at low level and/or short periods at high level.


----------



## SureAddicted (Nov 14, 2008)

Kilovolt said:


> The result is that the LED gets more bright but also more hot.



I have the H7 using eneloops, and I find that it's a tad less bright than using alkaline's, a few witnesses also said the same thing.


----------



## Rob187 (Nov 14, 2008)

After running down the alkalines that were installed when I bought my P7, I have used only NiMH in it with any apparant issue.

Okay, I accept that NiMH drives the LED a bit hard and if used for long periods the heat sinking, which does not appear all that good, will allow the LED to run too hot. Maybe I am sacrificing half the life of the LED.

Even if I used it daily, which I don't, by the time the LED had degraded sufficiently to notice - say after 12 months, there will be a whole new range of lights around.

So my 2 cents is, use NiMH - enjoy the brightness and buy a new light next year.


----------



## Swedpat (Nov 14, 2008)

Rob187,

What do you mean with "..._*that NiMH drives the LED a bit hard and if used for long periods the heat sinking, which does not appear all that good, will allow the LED to run too hot. Maybe I am sacrificing half the life of the LED*_"?

NiMh has lower beginning voltage than alkaline and provides lower beginning brightness. Doesn't that mean it will drive the LED less hard? 
Yes, the average brightness during the runtime will be higher with NiMh, but isn't it the top voltage which is the most important for the lasting of the LED?

Regards, Patric


----------



## Kilovolt (Nov 14, 2008)

Swedpat said:


> NiMh has lower beginning voltage than alkaline and provides lower beginning brightness. Doesn't that mean it will drive the LED less hard?
> Yes, the average brightness during the runtime will be higher with NiMh, but isn't it the top voltage which is the most important for the lasting of the LED?


 

If you look at the output diagram posted on the MesserForum (link) you will notice that after less than 10 minutes with alkaline's there is a significant drop in the output. It is likely that the LL designers counted on this drop to limit the temperature of the LED. If you keep the power constant you may overheat the LED with a consequent reduction of its lifespan.

As Rob says, if the life of the LED drops from 50,000 hours to 5,000 hours not many of us are likely to notice it...


----------



## Swedpat (Nov 14, 2008)

Yes Kilovolt, I understand what you mean. 
And this makes me to think about how unfair advertising Ledlenser uses. 
Claiming 167 lumens and a runtime of 130hours, when the output is significantly lower than 167 lumens already after 10 minutes!

Then I prefer 25% lower beginning brightness (ca 134 lumens) but better average brightness with NiMh cells, though the lifetime of the LED will be decreased to only a few thousand hours... 
Which makes me to think that I propably prefer the Fenix TK20 with 150 constant lumens using 2 cells (alkalines OR NiMh)...

Regards, Patric


----------



## Art (Nov 14, 2008)

After reading so much against Led Lenser I will buy a Fenix LD10 ASAP ja to check out all that is been sayd here...
I personaly love the Lenses from the P7... yesterday had once again to use the P7 for nearlly 1h (been having problems with my garage and I m only at home at night so...) and the lens is great... when you need to see something near just "open" and you see everthing and you dont get too much light that hurts your eyes and you see more then others.When you need to see something far just "close" the lens and its great.
So , you can argue about everything but still this capability of the LL is the thing that make me buy them.

Regards,


----------



## L.E.D. (Nov 16, 2008)

Kilovolt said:


> If you look at the output diagram posted on the MesserForum (link) you will notice that after less than 10 minutes with alkaline's there is a significant drop in the output.



Look at the graph for the alkalines. Doesn't the big drop at around 74 minutes indicate at least semi-regulation? The curve sure looks similar to lights that are indeed "semi-regulated", and definitely looks better than lights that use a resistor only..


----------



## Tohuwabohu (Nov 16, 2008)

There is no (active) electronics in the P7, only 3 resistors: 

One 1.5 Ohm resistor is in the head.

Another 1.5 Ohm resistor is in the switch for high-mode.
It is bypassed/short circuited for momentary "Turbo" mode

For low-mode there is a 100 Ohm resistor in the switch.


There are some X-Ray photos of the P7 in this post made by ex Vento.


----------



## cybersoga (Nov 17, 2008)

Might there be a good reason why they use only resistors other than cost saving?


----------



## yellow (Nov 17, 2008)

1st of all, I would have BET on direct drive (=resistor) but am really wondering they actually still use that - makes the lights crap again.

That typed, I think here are 2 kinds of ppl present:
the ones that are into lights for some time and have seen Lenser lights as well read as their often silly marketing texts (and all of these ppl have the SAME understanding of Lenser products, its no just Marduke alone) 
and the ones that are into lights just for short time and do not yet understand the positives of lights,
the ones that have not yet the understanding of: good regulation, hard anodizing, thermal management, direct drive vs. driver circuit, battery sizes and chemistrys, ...
... the most important thing: - regulation - it keeps the light output stable.

Lenser in general:
their lights were very overpriced crap.
Then they started with the *David* series - from then the machining is very good
BUT price is still too high, because "better offerings" use regulation, hard anodizing, heatsinking, ..., as standard and are still cheaper.

now *to the P7:*
* When I saw the above pic of the sink - not perfect, but quite ok - I wondered why the light does not get hot, it certainly should 
* with Tohuwabohu's stating that even this "modern and newest" Lenser still is _direct drive _, that low heat production is understandable --> the light does not get enough current to offer the lumen advertised and thus does not produce the heat expected. 
* AAA are the worst battery for powerful lights rolleyes: we are just talking of led lights, so "powerful" in that sense, pls). 3 AAAs usually are total crap (except for a few exceptions like the EOS), 4 AAA is not optimal. 
A 2 AA light easily offers more runtime at same output and deceases the chance to mix up used and unused batts and the user has to bring along less tiny battery parts if he wants to change them.
* If short size is the main criteria and thus the 4 AAA is "better" than a 2 AA light: a single 18650 one is smaller and lighter than 4 AAA (or 2 AA) lights and easily outshines both.
** that movable optic might be a plus, I cant comment on it. Have no longer liked movable beams since having seen good fixed ones and no longer like optics since seen good reflectors for led.
finally:
*marketing brabble *
(and to be honest: a few of You sound as if they are working at the enterprise) 
*1st:* why still not mention that there is a Cree inside? Typing something indifferent, like ever? 
Posting what led is used is a reason to buy / not to buy (especially if the maker already uses the newest ones)
*2nd:* IF these 170 +/- 15 % lumen were there; that would need some *800 mAh *to the led (I am nice here!),
that means about *600 mA *draw at battery (=800/4*3)

instead of bashing Marduke for being a Lenser-not-liker without knowledge, all of You could have taken and posted a basic proof that the light is as good as You all think: *measure current draw at battery*, 
instead of needing super expensive light output measuring equipment, everyone of us can measure current - and that gives surprisingly good data to use --> charge batts, hook current meter and take data at start, after 5, 10, 15, 30, 45 mins of running.

If there were a driver inside, with 4 AAAs the maketing department output could only be made for 1 hour and 20 mins at best, not for 170 hours. That fact is obvious and (again, like every description within the last years) asks for: 
why not offer the "high" and "moon mode" runtime. 
If there were a "1.5 hour high + 120 h moon" stated, that still is questionable but not impossible, like the actual data 

With Tohuws statement that there are only resistors (= direct drive), I say: 
at start more than the 600 mA, maybe same at 5 mins, at 10-15 mins considerably lower, at 30 mins about 300 or so, still going down but at reduced rate. If there will be a glow at 120 h --> :thinking:
Output is directly related to current and probably already at 10 mins lower than these 170 (+/- 15 %) lumen "offered".
Same goes for _heat produced_: no heat = no power to the led and for sure no 150+ lumen, thats easy (or, other possibility: bad heatsinking, cooking the led)

*Give us data* (none of us will purchase such a light any more) *to proof we are wrong *
would really like to see someting new. F.e. it is just short time I plunged into the Jetbeam lights.

PS: I have used and handled quite a number of Lensers, especially the early ones that really were overpriced crap. The last one I modded was a 3 AAA one of the actual series (thats why I type that the machining is nice, because it is). But this spring, when modding that light, it was also just direct drive --> overpriced, way below standard.
That the P7 is made the same way - "electronically"  wise - really hurts.  
I advise to get a Fenix LD20 (AA) or one of the Jetbeam Jet III models (18650), then compare. They are the better and cheaper lights.
Nearly every better-but-cheaper-competitor (Fenix 2 cell models, Jetbeam Jet III 18650 models) do give their advertised output at 1 hour runtime, usually they run about 1 h 45 mins or more with a stable output, higher than the P7 initially.


----------



## Marduke (Nov 17, 2008)

+1 to all of that



yellow said:


> 1st of all, I would have BET on direct drive (=resistor) but am really wondering they actually still use that - makes the lights crap again.
> 
> That typed, I think here are 2 kinds of ppl present:
> the ones that are into lights for some time and have seen Lenser lights as well read as their often silly marketing texts (and all of these ppl have the SAME understanding of Lenser products, its no just Marduke alone)
> ...



+1x10^9 for that especially

LL is a "newbie light", defended by those who simply are not educated as to what is better, and more importantly why they are so lacking in particular.


----------



## jupello (Nov 17, 2008)

cybersoga said:


> Might there be a good reason why they use only resistors other than cost saving?



It should waste little bit less energy than regulation circuit, but the reliability is the biggest one I think.



yellow said:


> 1st of all, I would have BET on direct drive (=resistor) but am really wondering they actually still use that - makes the lights crap again.



Yes, it's been proven and shown many times that P7 is direct drive (saw those x-ray pics of it?). But why does people think that direct drive automatically equals crap? I think that's just a opinion of a user that values regulation over all other things in a light.



yellow said:


> ** that movable optic might be a plus, I cant comment on it. Have no longer liked movable beams since having seen good fixed ones and no longer like optics since seen good reflectors for led.



Yes, that movable optic was the main reason I bought my LL, and I think it's superior to any reflector I've seen.. but everyone has their own opinions about what they want/need 



yellow said:


> finally:
> *marketing brabble *
> (and to be honest: a few of You sound as if they are working at the enterprise)
> *1st:* why still not mention that there is a Cree inside? Typing something indifferent, like ever?
> ...



*1st*: Their marketing seems to be towards the normal users that do not know what "cree" is, so they probably thought that it's not worth mentioning. :naughty:
*2nd*: Someone has already tested the current draws from the batteries in here ..for those that are too lazy to click the links: 
Alkaline: "Low 30mA, 500mA high, "Turbo" 750mA"
Eneloop: "Low 30mA, 750mA high, "Turbo" 1100mA"
I think the runtime graph that was posted earlier in this thread gives good enough picture of the light's performance over time.

Oh, and since you most likely did not look at the runtime graph, that 1hour 20minutes quess/estimate on high was pretty good one :thumbsup: ..and I must mention, that their runtimes are measured on the low output level, since there seems to be many misunderstandings about that. As noticed many times before, their marketing is a bit different/strange on some parts, so please try not to get provoked by their marketing statements so much :devil:



yellow said:


> *Give us data* (none of us will purchase such a light any more) *to proof we are wrong *
> would really like to see someting new. F.e. it is just short time I plunged into the Jetbeam lights.



Here you go. I already linked that page earlier here, but it seems that these short links are easily skipped 



Marduke said:


> LL is a "newbie light", defended by those who simply are not educated as to what is better, and more importantly why they are so lacking in particular.



I think that's a bit unaccounted bashing there. Everyone looks for different things in their lights, so please don't try to tell them what they should be wanting. I personally wanted the variable focus lens, so in this case I chose to get it over over the regulation circuit that you hold so dear.


----------



## Tohuwabohu (Nov 17, 2008)

yellow said:


> instead of bashing Marduke for being a Lenser-not-liker without knowledge, all of You could have taken and posted a basic proof that the light is as good as You all think: *measure current draw at battery*,
> instead of needing super expensive light output measuring equipment, everyone of us can measure current - and that gives surprisingly good data to use --> charge batts, hook current meter and take data at start, after 5, 10, 15, 30, 45 mins of running.


Current measurements at the P7 are a bit difficult because of the 4xAAA battery holder with the integrated switch. Measuring the light output was far easier for me.



jupello said:


> Here you go. I already linked that page earlier here, but it seems that these short links are easily skipped


Those Google translations are awful.
I wrote quite a lot of the German original (I'm user Hmblgrmpf in the Messerforum) but can't understand the translation :sick2:.


----------



## yellow (Nov 17, 2008)

You are right, I really missed that link to the runtime chart...
Sorry

... wondering about that relatively flat output curve.
Sure the light looses 20 % of initial output within the 1st 5-10 mins, but from then the graph (w. Ni-Mhs) looks astoundingly good. :thumbs:

If they ever change from AAA for most of their models to AA, or even 18650 ...



PS: the reason for most of the direct drive bashing maybe comes from the fact, that everything stands or falls with the batts. Here the actually best were used, with "normal" ni-mhs and charger (electricity most ppl will have) there might be way worse results.
Also the description (usually) tells how technically superior the lights are - which they are not.
and finally the price<->value ratio


----------



## Art (Nov 17, 2008)

They cost the same here in europe for example a P7 vs LD20 are the same price.

About the regulated "idea" I personally dont like when some users say "suddenly in the dark .." that is what happends with regulated output isnt it?

BTW , if you are using a regulated light and you are at a medium setting and it goes off.. if you switch to low will there be any light left?

A have to agree that Im still a noob in lights but my life was always around gadjets and high tech things and this LL are very well made.
The only thing I dont like is not having like low->med->high because most of the time high is to much and low you have to turn it on in "flood" so it wont be to much ligh.

Another thing I dont understand is on that link jupello showed the P7 has 8300lx vs 3000lx of the L2D?
Whats the meening of that since both are rated at more less the same lumen...

Regards,

​


----------



## jupello (Nov 17, 2008)

Tohuwabohu said:


> Those Google translations are awful.
> I wrote quite a lot of the German original (I'm user Hmblgrmpf in the Messerforum) but can't understand the translation :sick2:.



Oh it's you who we should thank for those runtime graphs..so thank you :twothumbs
I cant understand any german so with google translation I at least understand some words :laughing:



Art said:


> Another thing I dont understand is on that link jupello showed the P7 has 8300lx vs 3000lx of the L2D?
> Whats the meening of that since both are rated at more less the same lumen...



Those lux readings tell how bright the light is in one measurement spot and lumen ratings tell how much overall light comes out of the flashlight(or led). So P7 has higher lux readings because it can focus/defocus almost all of the light into the place where you want it(throw or flood).


----------



## Marduke (Nov 17, 2008)

Art said:


> About the regulated "idea" I personally dont like when some users say "suddenly in the dark .." that is what happends with regulated output isnt it?
> 
> BTW , if you are using a regulated light and you are at a medium setting and it goes off.. if you switch to low will there be any light left?



1) Generally no. Very few regulated lights just blink off (poor design). Most have a moderate to slow transition into a moon mode which lasts for many more hours.

2) Usually you loose modes from the top down, meaning when you loose high mode you still have the lower modes for some period of time.


----------



## Art (Nov 17, 2008)

Marduke: Thanks for the answer , thats not bad at all... probably only if you are in low but that would be the same in the P7.

Jupello: So the P7 is no doubt the best thrower ... probably not the best there is but between most known light know here at europe.

Im still amased but the power of this light... 10mins ago I went to change my sisters car battery and took the P7 with me... where she leaves one side of the bilding has no light and the nearest think are trees at more less 100-150meters.. the P7 has the nimh at 1.35v and I could see the trees light up!

Im repeating myself but , I love this lenses and even when the light is with 0,9v it still has a nice beam althought not that bright offcourse 

Regards,


----------



## adirondackdestroyer (Nov 17, 2008)

Where is the best (cheapest) place to buy either the P7 or the P14? I would love to have either one, but they are pretty damn expensive.


----------



## germanium (Nov 18, 2008)

adirondackdestroyer said:


> Where is the best (cheapest) place to buy either the P7 or the P14? I would love to have either one, but they are pretty damn expensive.


 
Don't know where you live but Fry's Electronics has the P14 for 73 dollars. This is cheaper than I have seen online. For the price difference compared to the online stores you can get a set or two of rechargable batteries & charger & get light that does not appear to fade to the eye for 3 hours in high mode


----------



## adirondackdestroyer (Nov 18, 2008)

germanium said:


> Don't know where you live but Fry's Electronics has the P14 for 73 dollars. This is cheaper than I have seen online. For the price difference compared to the online stores you can get a set or two of rechargable batteries & charger & get light that does not appear to fade to the eye for 3 hours in high mode




Thanks a lot for the reply, but I live in upstate NY and there isn't a Fry's anywhere nearby. Very good price though!


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 18, 2008)

What amazes me is that people are still running on about this 167 lumens for 130 hours!
This light has lower levels and I would of thought that most people with a little bit of reading and learning would of worked out that the total run time stated would be at lower levels!
After all, it's not rocket science.... LOL


----------



## Marduke (Nov 18, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> What amazes me is that people are still running on about this 167 lumens for 130 hours!
> This light has lower levels and I would of thought that most people with a little bit of reading and learning would of worked out that the total run time stated would be at lower levels!
> After all, it's not rocket science.... LOL



Their runtime is stated the same way it always has been, theoretical maximum to minimal operating specs of their "patented electronic circuitry" system of drop resistors.

Common sense would tell you that the long runtime is for low mode, but LL does not follow common sense in their advertising, and continue to use the same bogus numbers they have since they first entered the market.


----------



## Swedpat (Nov 18, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> What amazes me is that people are still running on about this 167 lumens for 130 hours!
> This light has lower levels and I would of thought that most people with a little bit of reading and learning would of worked out that the total run time stated would be at lower levels!
> After all, it's not rocket science.... LOL


 


Marduke said:


> Their runtime is stated the same way it always has been, theoretical maximum to minimal operating specs of their "patented electronic circuitry" system of drop resistors.
> 
> Common sense would tell you that the long runtime is for low mode, but LL does not follow common sense in their advertising, and continue to use the same bogus numbers they have since they first entered the market.


 
The most people who are knowledgeable of LED-lights understand that 167 lumens for 130 hours is just to good to be true for a 4xAAA light. But the problem is all people who are not aware of the LED technology. 
Many will surely be deceived and then very dissapointed when they discover that the statement was really false. Also Ledlenser recommend alkalines (the claimed lumens concerns alkalines), whose output very fast decrease from the beginning. Therefore the point of purchasing a light with that promised brightness during such a long time will get lost, when it isn't true for a single hour! Ledlenser's marketing policy isn't fair, without doubt that kind of advertising is intentional. That's too bad.

Regards, Patric


----------



## Sonic Blast (Nov 18, 2008)

I have three led lensers a police tech focus and two v2 keyfinders and the keyfinders have a clamed output that varies from website to website. in the instruction manual it is 50 hours but on most websites it is 200 hours. Well eachhave been used for an hour and the output has more than halfed. My friend says that about three hours if your lucky is all the useable light that you get. I think what LL mean by runtime is the amount of time on minimum briteness that light can be detected from the LED under a microscope. :shakehead


----------



## Sarratt (Nov 18, 2008)

.. or we hoped 


simple optimimstrablaity


----------



## Marduke (Nov 18, 2008)

Sonic Blast said:


> I think what LL mean by runtime is the amount of time on minimum briteness that light can be detected from the LED under a microscope. :shakehead



That is their standard practice. It's really a shame that so many uneducated consumers are tricked into believing otherwise.


----------



## germanium (Nov 18, 2008)

Take the run time claim in hours & interpret them as minutes & then you get a pretty accurate runtime I.E. 180 Hours=180 minutes or three hours with good brightness. That is what you actually get with the P14.


----------



## gilkersA7 (Nov 19, 2008)

Their advertising is deceiving but still their newer lights are really nice.


----------



## germanium (Nov 19, 2008)

gilkersA7 said:


> Their advertising is deceiving but still their newer lights are really nice.


 
Agreed+++


----------



## don.gwapo (Feb 21, 2010)

Same here as well. I'm using Energizer ultimate lithium on my P7 and got an hour or two longer over the alkalines. Not much of a difference on run times.


----------

