# Cree and pt apex?



## jjyoung (Nov 15, 2006)

Has anyone been able to put a cree into a pt apex? I read somewhere that it would require alot of modding to get it to fit in place of the luxeon but it might be worth the try. Any thoughts?


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## HEY HEY ITS HENDO (Nov 15, 2006)

Hey jj welcome to CandlePower Forums mate, 
a cree in an apex ?? .... alot of modding?? just hang around a while,.. the guys on this forum can do the impossible AND work miracles !!
aint seen any yet......................but watch this space


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## CM (Nov 16, 2006)

It's being worked on


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## chesterqw (Nov 16, 2006)

hmm...

should fit
but will need a new,different optic.


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## Gonzo (Dec 13, 2006)

I plan on doing this to my apex. I would also like to replace the other 4 led's with something brighter (I know there is something, but can't remember what they are called). Where can I buy a cree and the other led's?


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## EatSleepRunBike (Jan 19, 2007)

I modded mine with a cree. You do need to do some work to get the led to sit on the heat sink. Otherwise the bare emitter and the Cree optic fit perfectly inside the light. the beam was wider and gave much more side spill. I wanted to measure the current going to the led, but I didn't have a meter to read it. Does anyone know what the current drive to the led is? It should be the same to both the Lux and the Cree right because of the current regulation, right?


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## jar3ds (Jan 20, 2007)

when people do the reflector mod with a luxeon... do they use a 17mm or a 20mm?


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## Brlux (Jan 20, 2007)

The 17mm is a bit small and the 20mm is a but to big. I user a Razor and shaves off a little form and IMS20. It fits good and I don't have to use any adhesives to hold the reflector in place.


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## Mundele (Jan 20, 2007)

Where do you get the 17 and 20mm reflectors? I just got my CREE XR-E in and want to mod my EOS.


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## HEY HEY ITS HENDO (Jan 20, 2007)

check here ......

http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.com/allprods.php?osCsid=73699be5bbeabba33e3bd18cb0f376f6


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## rfarkash (Jan 23, 2007)

Any suggestions for replacing the 5mm LEDs? That is the mode I mostly use, and would love more light.
How hard a mod would this be?
Thanks
Ron


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## Brlux (Jan 24, 2007)

I believe they are already using the Nichia CS led's which to my knoledge are the best 5mm led's you can get.


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## NoFair (Jan 24, 2007)

rfarkash said:


> Any suggestions for replacing the 5mm LEDs? That is the mode I mostly use, and would love more light.
> How hard a mod would this be?
> Thanks
> Ron



I think you can use SMJLEDs. They are about the same brightness (usually brighter), but are whiter than most Nichas.

I don't know if anybody has done this, I thought about it but haven't found it worth the price and effort.


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## rfarkash (Jan 24, 2007)

Thanks for the replies. Sounds like I'll stick with stock for now.

Thanks
Ron


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## NoFair (Feb 7, 2007)

I put a Seoul P4 in mine and the result is great! Very nice tint and it works well with stock optic

The throw is better with the Seoul and the spill is still good. Output is not much shy of 100 lumen so I'm a happy camper

The Seoul drops right in, but one needs to isolate the slug from the metal heat sink.

Sverre


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## MorpheusT1 (Feb 7, 2007)

I have also modded my Apex with the Seoul with great result.
I used one of the Copper shims at the shoppe to make up for the height diffrence.

I also replaced the 5mm Leds with SMJ Leds from the shoppe with a horrible result.
The SMJ leds turned out to be much dimmer than the original leds.So im guessing a the leds are resistored or the more power hungry SMJ`s get to little power from the converter.




Benny


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## CM (Feb 10, 2007)

I went with the Seoul on my Apex and increased my total output 100%. That is going from a TWOJ to a SSC-P4 U bin. I was somewhat surprised that the output increased that much (evidenced by using ceiling bounce measurement). The Apex has always been one of my favorite lights and now I can run it on low and get considerably more runtime, or when need be, run it on high when I really need the light without giving up runtime compared to the stock Apex.


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## MorpheusT1 (Feb 10, 2007)

Hey CM,


Im glad you see the same improvement i do.I just love new Technology 

Do you have any tips regarding the SMJ Led upgrade i did?
Any easy fix to this?




Benny


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## CM (Feb 10, 2007)

MorpheusT1 said:


> Hey CM,
> 
> 
> Im glad you see the same improvement i do.I just love new Technology
> ...



Benny,

I do not use the 5mm LED's that much so I don't have much to contribute there. I have thought about replacing the 5mm with red ones though.


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## TMorita (Feb 10, 2007)

NoFair said:


> I think you can use SMJLEDs. They are about the same brightness (usually brighter), but are whiter than most Nichas.
> 
> I don't know if anybody has done this, I thought about it but haven't found it worth the price and effort.


 
Well...yes and no.

From what I can tell, the Nichias in the Apex are seriously overdriven, maybe 60ma or more. At that level, each one is probably at about 44k mcd intensity and 9 lumens. The SMJLED is about 22k mcd and 12 lumens at 80ma.

So if you replace the Nichias with SMJLEDs (and the driver can handle it) the intensity will go down, but the total light output will be higher - basically, you'll lose hotspot and gain much more sidespill.

(Yes, I've swapped out Nichias for SMJLEDs, but not on an Apex - I've done it on a BD Xenix IQ)

Toshi


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## MorpheusT1 (Feb 10, 2007)

hmm...

Thanks for explenation 
Allthough i really cannot see a improvent at all.
The Output actually got cut in half,but yet the intesity when looking straight in the leds are brighter to the eyes.


So i guess they have more output,i just cant see it on a wall or in regular use.


Benny


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## HEY HEY ITS HENDO (Feb 11, 2007)

mmmmmm interesting thread !!
has anyone considered trying to get the main LED and the 5mm LEDs all running at the same time??.... :naughty:


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## ibcj (Feb 15, 2007)

Is the led on a star in the Apex ?

For those that have done a Seoul P4 mod, did you leave the optic in or replace it with a reflector and if so, which reflector ?


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## vtunderground (Feb 15, 2007)

nystrpr said:


> Is the led on a star in the Apex ?



No, it's just the emitter.


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## kitelights (Feb 16, 2007)

CM said:


> I went with the Seoul on my Apex and increased my total output 100%. That is going from a TWOJ to a SSC-P4 U bin. I was somewhat surprised that the output increased that much (evidenced by using ceiling bounce measurement). The Apex has always been one of my favorite lights and now I can run it on low and get considerably more runtime, or when need be, run it on high when I really need the light without giving up runtime compared to the stock Apex.


CM-

I'd appreciate some pointers. What reflector are you using, did it require any adjustments, did you just swap the emitter, is the swap any different than with a Luxeon? Thanks.


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## eebowler (Feb 16, 2007)

Morpheus: I'm wondering if something went wrong with the mod. The SL Task light uses the Nichia CS LED and I replaced it with a cut 4 die LED (similar to the SMJLED) and a 17mm reflector and the output from what my eyes can tell increased a good 50%. Output difference should be obvious. :thinking:


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## NoFair (Feb 16, 2007)

kitelights said:


> CM-
> 
> I'd appreciate some pointers. What reflector are you using, did it require any adjustments, did you just swap the emitter, is the swap any different than with a Luxeon? Thanks.



I think an IMS 20mm can be cut down to fit. The stock optic is very nice with a Seoul, I'm using the optic in mine. The Seoul is perfect with the stock optic.
The emitter swap is just like with a luxeon except that you need to isolate the slug on the Seoul from the heatsink.

Sverre


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## Brum (Feb 16, 2007)

NoFair said:


> I think an IMS 20mm can be cut down to fit. The stock optic is very nice with a Seoul, I'm using the optic in mine. The Seoul is perfect with the stock optic.
> The emitter swap is just like with a luxeon except that you need to isolate the slug on the Seoul from the heatsink.
> 
> Sverre


You dont have to isolate it, the heatsink is anodized. And even if it wouldnt be, my DMM says theres nothing tied to the heatsink (scratched it to check)... I put a KLC-8 in a Apex, it is a bit brighter, but my Edison has a very low Vf (3,25V @1A) so the power input is much, much lower. I'd imagine a Seoul would be brighter, but I'm happy with the gained runtime.


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## CM (Feb 16, 2007)

kitelights said:


> CM-
> 
> I'd appreciate some pointers. What reflector are you using, did it require any adjustments, did you just swap the emitter, is the swap any different than with a Luxeon? Thanks.



No reflector used. Just the stock optic which I think is perfect for a headlamp. I didn't even bother shimming the LED on this one, just swap emitter. I do think it's now too bright on high and I'm thinking of dialing down the bias. But for now. low works very well enough for me for 90% of the tasks and it gives the added bonus of very long runtime.


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## jar3ds (Feb 16, 2007)

has anyone replaced the 5mm's with RED LED's? Is this even possible due to the high current that the normal LED's get? Or would you have to wire in a resistor?

Personally... if you can upgrade the main LED and use a good reflector... then having the 5mm's for night vision tasks that would be an awesome headlamp!


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## cmacclel (Feb 16, 2007)

CM said:


> No reflector used. Just the stock optic which I think is perfect for a headlamp. I didn't even bother shimming the LED on this one, just swap emitter. I do think it's now too bright on high and I'm thinking of dialing down the bias. But for now. low works very well enough for me for 90% of the tasks and it gives the added bonus of very long runtime.




2 bright on High.....


Mac


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## cmacclel (Feb 16, 2007)




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## ibcj (Feb 16, 2007)

Thanks for the detailed pics Mac ! Very helpful to me.


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## BPH (Feb 16, 2007)

VERY nice photos!
thanks,
-BPH


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## greenLED (Feb 16, 2007)

Speaking of replacing the 5mm LED's... If you overdrive the SMJLED's, they degrade fast. The THC3 5mm LED's are designed for higher current drives (80-100mA, IIRC). The white ones have a warmer tint to them (almost mimics the color temp of the SF A2's lamp) and are nice. They also make them in other colors.


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## jar3ds (Feb 16, 2007)

greenLED said:


> Speaking of replacing the 5mm LED's... If you overdrive the SMJLED's, they degrade fast. The THC3 5mm LED's are designed for higher current drives (80-100mA, IIRC). The white ones have a warmer tint to them (almost mimics the color temp of the SF A2's lamp) and are nice. They also make them in other colors.


 excellent GreenLED! Where do you buy THC3 5mm LEDs? Also, how is their output at say 60ma?

Anyone know how hard the Apex's 5mm are driven at?


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## cave dave (Feb 16, 2007)

The 17mm is small but works well, no light is wasted bouncing around inside or anything.


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## greenLED (Feb 16, 2007)

jar3ds said:


> excellent GreenLED! Where do you buy THC3 5mm LEDs? Also, how is their output at say 60ma?
> 
> Anyone know how hard the Apex's 5mm are driven at?


You can get them from LSDiodes. I haven't played with them in a way that would help me answer your other question, though.

I'm also curious to know about the drive current on the Apex's 5mm LED.


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## SpencerF (Feb 16, 2007)

I measured the voltage and current drawn from the batteries a year ago in to the PT-Apex and calculated power as:

4 LED high: ~1W

V A W
5.5 0.2 1.1
5.0 0.225 1.125 
4.5 0.25 1.125
4.25 0.25 1.06
4.0 0.25 1.0
3.75 0.255 0.96 ** Low battery indication


4 LED Lo: ~1/4W (note: 0.05A is near the limit of my DMM resolution)
V A W
5.5 0.05 0.275
5.0 0.05 0.25
4.5 0.05 0.225
4.0 0.05 0.2


I have the same data for the main LED. To summarize, it drew 3.5W @ 4.1V on high and 0.85W @4.1.

My purpose was to understand the PT-Apex regulator's efficiency and the point at which it drops out of regulation.

My conclusion was it drops out of regulation at 3.9V and that it's point of maximum power draw is at 4.0 volts.

Have fun,
SpencerF


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## jar3ds (Feb 17, 2007)

cave dave said:


> The 17mm is small but works well, no light is wasted bouncing around inside or anything.


 so wouldn't a McR-18 be perfect?


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## jar3ds (Feb 17, 2007)

i'm curious to those that run lithium ion's in the pro or the old model (two 14500 w/ two dummies) Know if when the low voltage protection circuit kicks on in the batteries if the apex just goes dead... without a slow loss in output?


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## Brlux (Feb 17, 2007)

It sure does just cut out on you without warning. I have never seen my battery indicator be anything but green. This is the only downfall of using Li-Ion in the apex but it is a small price to pay, just make sure you have a spare battery or light. That should not be a problem for a Flashaholic.


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## jar3ds (Feb 17, 2007)

Brlux said:


> It sure does just cut out on you without warning. I have never seen my battery indicator be anything but green. This is the only downfall of using Li-Ion in the apex but it is a small price to pay, just make sure you have a spare battery or light. That should not be a problem for a Flashaholic.


 yep... no problem... i was just curious... .... once i figure out the best red LED option for the apex i may buy one


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## Tidra (Feb 18, 2007)

What are the advantages of using 2x LiIon instead of 4x Alcal batteries,...

+ for LIIon
Weight, better in cold condition,…

- for LiIon
Price, 2x dummies, can’t buy everywhere,…

How about run time,… is it better with 2XLiIon or 4x Alcal?


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## jjyoung (Feb 18, 2007)

what's the efficiency for the seoul p4 @ 1watt? I can't find the specs on their website. Also, what do you think is the better option, a cree q2 bin or the seoul p4? I know the cree takes more modification to fit the apex, but I am concerned mostly with output. thanks


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## cmacclel (Feb 18, 2007)

I just did this P4 mod today to my buddy's Apex and it was almost 2x as bright 


Mac


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## luminari (Feb 19, 2007)

cmacclel said:


>



Thanks for the awesome pics, cmacclel...

Did you have to melt the plastic "frame" around the old Luxeon emitter before you could remove it? It looks like it's glued to the frame on my PT Apex.


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## cmacclel (Feb 19, 2007)

It poped right out.

Mac


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## luminari (Feb 19, 2007)

Cool, thanks again!


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## Meduza (Feb 20, 2007)

i just did this mod, it was just a matter of taking a pair of pliers and pulling the old lux out and clean, put some AS5 on and put the seoul P4 back in, soldering everything up and screw it together.


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## peteybaby (Feb 21, 2007)

Meduza said:


> i just did this mod, it was just a matter of taking a pair of pliers and pulling the old lux out and clean, put some AS5 on and put the seoul P4 back in, soldering everything up and screw it together.



Hello. I'm new to this forum but I've just ordered a few Fenix lights, and I'm very interested in this thread as well because I have an Apex. But some of the lingo you all use is foreign to me. Could someone tell me in very explicit steps how to do this mod? i.e. instead of:

"well you pop in a whizbang and you get 2x the output..."

could someone write:

1. Buy <exact model name and number> from one of these sources (list of sources).
2. Open Apex.
3. Remove Luxeon (I know how to do this part because I've taken my Luxeon out once already... long story).
4. Place <material> shim, cut to <size> here (describe location).
5. <any other mechanical steps necessary>
6. Solder red wire to <which> terminal on the LED.
7. Solder black wire to <which> terminal on the LED.
8. Place LED where the Luxeon used to be.
9. <any other mechanical steps necessary>
10. Reassemble Apex.

If anybody can describe the procedure like that, thanks a lot!


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## Meduza (Feb 22, 2007)

1. Buy a Seoul P4 emitter from Photonfanatic here on the forums:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/148921
2. Open apex
3. Remove luxeon
4. I did not place any shim in my apex
5. Clean the heatsink from the old thermal greese and add a little dot of new thermal greese, i used Artic Silver 5
6. Solder red wire to the positive terminal on the P4
7. Solder black wire to the negative terminal (the one with a notch in the other copper lead, look on the datasheet for the P4 and see)
8. Place LED where luxeon used to be, be sure that it has good contact with heatsink
9. I dont think i did anything more...
10. Reassemble apex


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## peteybaby (Feb 22, 2007)

Meduza said:


> 1. Buy a Seoul P4 emitter from Photonfanatic here on the forums:
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/148921
> 2. Open apex
> 3. Remove luxeon
> ...



Hey that's awesome. Thanks Meduza!


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## peteybaby (Feb 22, 2007)

NoFair said:


> I put a Seoul P4 in mine and the result is great! Very nice tint and it works well with stock optic
> 
> The throw is better with the Seoul and the spill is still good. Output is not much shy of 100 lumen so I'm a happy camper
> 
> ...



Sverre, what did you use to isolate the slug (is that just the body of the LED?) from the heatsink? Thanks.


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## Meduza (Feb 22, 2007)

The heatsink in the apex is not electrically connected, it is only in contact with the led and the plastic body, so no need to isolate, just use a good thermal paste.


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## jar3ds (Feb 22, 2007)

Meduza said:


> The heatsink in the apex is not electrically connected, it is only in contact with the led and the plastic body, so no need to isolate, just use a good thermal paste.


 good to know!


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## ProofTech (Feb 23, 2007)

I just put a P4 emitter (USV0I bin) in my Apex and I just love the results. The original emitter produced an ugly purplish blue tint, so this mod didn’t just give me more lumens, it also gave me a much nicer tint IMO. However, I’m very disappointed with Princeton Tec. As I was disassembling the headlamp, I discovered that the O-ring was missing, so I had to use some “silicone gasket maker” to fill in the area where the O-ring should be.

ProofTech


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## Pokerstud (Feb 23, 2007)

kitelights said:


> CM-
> 
> I'd appreciate some pointers. What reflector are you using, did it require any adjustments, did you just swap the emitter, is the swap any different than with a Luxeon? Thanks.




CM modded my PT Apex Pro with just the emitter, SSC P4 U-bin. Stock lens and reflector. The difference is amazing. Output is AT LEAST double. Greater throw and better spill. I can't comment on the procedure because I don't have that knowledge base. Now I have a PT Apex Pro Plus. Thanks Cris!!! :twothumbs :bow:


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## hubert (Aug 23, 2007)

sorry - but i still did not understand it.:thinking:

How do i remove the original Maxbright 3 Watt LED? (how is it fixed)
How is the P4 fixed on the apex?


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## gordolights (Aug 23, 2007)

I would be willing to hire someone with more skill than myself (which would probably be most of the people on this string) to mod my Apex Pro with a Seoul or Cree. Any takers?

Gordo


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## cmacclel (Aug 23, 2007)

hubert said:


> sorry - but i still did not understand it.:thinking:
> 
> How do i remove the original Maxbright 3 Watt LED? (how is it fixed)
> How is the P4 fixed on the apex?



The LED is held in by the pressure of the optic.

Mac


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## peteybaby (Aug 23, 2007)

hubert said:


> sorry - but i still did not understand it.:thinking:
> 
> How do i remove the original Maxbright 3 Watt LED? (how is it fixed)
> How is the P4 fixed on the apex?



Hubert, which part do you not understand?

About removing the stock LED, see posts #32 (I think... the one with the pictures) and then #47-50. Does that help?

Or are you asking how to open up the Apex to get at the LED?


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## Patriot (Aug 23, 2007)

These mods are really neat in the Apex. Nice work guys. Just out of curiosity, does PT have any plans to use seoul, cree, or rebels in new production Apexs anytime soon?


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## etc (Aug 25, 2007)

Great thread!

I am going to attempt this mod.


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## hubert (Sep 6, 2007)

peteybaby said:


> Hubert, which part do you not understand?
> 
> About removing the stock LED, see posts #32 (I think... the one with the pictures) and then #47-50. Does that help?
> 
> Or are you asking how to open up the Apex to get at the LED?



I already looked a lot of times at this excellent pics - but
>>#48 It poped right out.
What does it mean. I do not know how it is fixed.:duh2:

(How to open is not the problem)
(Sorry for waiting so long for my answer)


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## peteybaby (Sep 6, 2007)

By "fixed" I believe you mean "mounted" or "attached" or "held in place", correct? If so, the answer is that it is held in place by the thermal compound and by the friction of the black plastic "frame" that surrounds the emitter.

The thermal compound PT uses on the Apex is not an adhesive, so if not for that plastic frame, the emitter could slide around on the heatsink. I think the tight fit of the emitter in the frame, plus perhaps heat cycling, seats the emitter more firmly than you may be expecting, so you may be worried about damaging something if you just use force to pull out the stock emitter. But I've modded 3 Apexes now, and yes all you have to do is grab onto one of the wires, or better yet, grab both simultaneously or alternately, and pull upward on them to get the stock emitter out. I pulled alternately (pulled red wire a tiny bit, then pulled black wire a tiny bit, etc.). Then eventually it does "pop right out".

It's more troublesome (but still not troublesome really) to pop the Seoul emitter back IN.  Remember, don't press on the gummy dome!!


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## snoboy (Jan 24, 2008)

peteybaby said:


> 1. Buy <exact model name and number> from one of these sources (list of sources).
> 
> If anybody can describe the procedure like that, thanks a lot!



This is exactly what I ordered from photonfanatic:

1 x P4 USW0H emitter
1 x KCLP20ST stippled 20mm reflector
1 x KCLP20CR smooth 20mm reflector
1 x Arctic Silver 5 High-Density Thermal Compound, 3.5 Gram Tube

I got both reflectors so I can try and see what I prefer.


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## Weylan (Jan 25, 2008)

If you were waiting to do this MOD, don't wait. A Seul P4, an IMS reflector make all the artifacts of the original optic go away. You get hot spot and nice side spill and no more dark gray shadow areas!

Now the Soul is better then the 4x 5mm LEDs and this is awesome. More time on LOW with a great light.

$22.50 shipped from the sandwich shoppe for LED and reflector. And nice smooth goodness.


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## grnamin (Jan 26, 2008)

Apex Pro with SSC P4 and McR-20 reflector (about 4mm shaved off the top via belt sander):


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## greenLED (Jan 27, 2008)

Nicely done, Greg!
Is that an McR20 or a McR20s?


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## grnamin (Jan 27, 2008)

greenLED said:


> Nicely done, Greg!
> Is that an McR20 or a McR20s?


 
Thank you.  It's a regular McR20. After grinding off the approximately 4mm off the top rim, it fit nicely.


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## The-David (Feb 21, 2008)

Has anyone sanded the 4 X 5mm Led's yet to smoth out there patern?


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## snoboy (Feb 21, 2008)

I completed this mod last week, and left the stock optic in for now. I have to find some time to play with reflectors and see what I prefer.

The timing was good though. We had a missing skier this week, and I got to try the lamp out in the purpose I bought it for - skiing and searching at night. It worked really well.


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## eltrain (Oct 9, 2008)

Hello all,
Just did the SSC P4 mod, what a difference. I kept the stock optic, it works well with the P4. Adding some aluminum foil between the black optic mount and the optic smoothed out some of the artifacts. Guess you never know till you try sometimes. Especially when being cheap. 

Now that my spot is so nice and warm I'm noticing how gawd awful the tint of the 4 5mm LEDs is. They have a nasty yellow ring around a blue center. This is especially apparent in a cave, it actually kills depth perception on occasion. Caving with a friend that uses carbide really made me notice it. The color temp of a carbide lamp is around 2500K so I've gathered, pretty close to these newer warm white LEDs, at least close enough to bring out the same colors down there and not strain the eyes too much. The data given below would suggest around 60ma each on high, which I cannot find in a warm white 5mm. Are the stock ones being overdriven, or are they just rated that high? There is one I found rated 100ma continuous, but it has a mini heat sink built into the leads, and would likely not fit without surgery. There are a few rated for 30ma, including one made by Cree that says long life. Has anyone here tried this mod or have any thoughts on replacements? I'll try some out and post results if I find some that look okay.

John



SpencerF said:


> I measured the voltage and current drawn from the batteries a year ago in to the PT-Apex and calculated power as:
> 
> 4 LED high: ~1W
> 
> ...


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