# is anyone future proofing against 'too-powerful' lights?



## mickb (Oct 12, 2017)

This might sound dumb to lumen/cool UI chasers but I wish I had bought a lot more lights from the 2013 era. I'd specifically like more keychain lights single mode at 25-30 lumen max, AA pocket lights around 60-80 lumens and 18650 maxing around 600-700 as the standard choices and just 1 or 2 power settings. The last few years doubled these power levels basically for everything, battery power didn't double, and number of power modes sometimes quadrupled in order to spread the gap. While you can dial down power its extra programming circuitry or clicking through modes to put up with. As an industrial user at the moment I am buying up a few fenix e05 AAA, HL23 fenix headlamps, Fenix E12 1x AA which in my opinion are great lights, (still slightly overpowered in my opinion at 85, 130,150 max) but if I don't buy them now they are going to be what double the power and modes by 2020?


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## Gt390 (Oct 12, 2017)

I agree with some of your points. Especially regarding multi mode lights. I find that I much prefer single mode or only a high/ low combination. On aaa twisties I really dislike having to do multiple on off cycles to get to high.


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## wweiss (Oct 12, 2017)

Not dumb at all... 
I agree - lumens can be a fool's chase. A never ending search for perfection...
The real metric is a good tint and beam design. Our eyes adjust to an amazing degree and lower, more pleasant lumens - if you have the patience to get dark-adapted, are the way to go - as long as the beam spread is satisfying. The Prometheus Alpha has these qualities as well as the Olight Baton Mini.


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## eh4 (Oct 12, 2017)

I think that improved UIs are going to save the day here. The v.2 ramping UI used in the Emisar lights isn't necessarily what you're looking for yet, but it shows how much better lights can be. V.3 will have a user definable max level, and it's easy enough to see that circuits will exist to let the user fully customize their interface. 

(Already exist, check out Dr. Jones driver)

Myself, I want to see recessed tail cap forward clicky with electronic side switch. The forward clicky acts as a lockout for the electric side switch, and the side switch can switch on/off as well as switch modes, including locking the light into a tail clicky only mode... So the same light will perform as side switch, tail clicky, or hybrid, as desired. 
I'd do 3 mode groups for kicks: a ramping UI, a 5+ low to high with hybrid memory that branched for tail or side switch, and a single mode only tail switch mode. While we're at it, full tighten tail for momentary only, loosen slightly to ball detente for forward clicky. 

The leds will get more efficient and have better tints, better cri, and the user will be able to dial them back to 20th century single or dual mode lights if they want to.


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## iamlucky13 (Oct 12, 2017)

No, I'm not future proofing, because while I get what you're saying about simple interfaces and appropriate brightness for a given task, using a multi-mode light overwhelmingly at one mode level is not a major hassle to me. So I'm not buying extra's of lights I like now just in case they go out of production.

However, it sounds like you might get some peace of mind by grabbing a few extra E01's and BLF-348's for yourself.

Actually, I'm hopeful we might start to see more high quality, regulated lights with simple interfaces, not less. The flashaholics market is basically saturated with cutting edge options. Mainstream America, on the other hand has Maglites, Coasts, cellphone flashes, and a bunch of no-name rubbish. If the companies we know want to make inroads into the mainstream market and grow their business, they need products that follow the K.I.S.S. principle, but offer clearly better quality than the no-name rubbish.

Consider Lumintop just releasing the Tool AA, with 3 reasonably-spaced modes, predictable output until the battery is mostly drained, and no firefly. I might consider this as a gift light for non-flashaholics, especially if they make a Nichia version.


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## bykfixer (Oct 12, 2017)

You're not alone MickB.... well kinda...

If I put a box of my empty LED lights from that era on a scale it would probably weigh 15-20 pounds plus the weight of the box. I saw where things were heading in 2015/16 and stocked up on new old stock at clearance prices. 

Only issue I had was one Amazon seller had swiped a bunch of NOS products from Coast and my purchases from that seller are still in possesion of the United States government somewhere. Oh I got my money back eventually but geez did I have some explaining to do first. lol. 
I bought 19 HP7's with 251 lumen hi/lo only from him, and his local Post Master General started seeing multiple boxes addressed to me.... (10 silver, 9 black)

One morning I got a phone call..."Uh, sir, could you explain why you've purchased 9 of the same flashlight?"... like they were thinking they were filled with cocaine or something,. They were Christmas presents... at least that's what I told the government anyway. lol. I did give away most of them though, just not at Christmas.

But I stockpiled Pelicans, Streamlights, SureFire's, Elzettas and Malkoffs. A few LED Lenser P7 knock off were bought before I received a genuine one. And the fakes were pretty good... in better packaging... padded gift boxes with better lanyards and top shelf batteries (which are probably fakes as well)

Stock piling LED lights ceased when I discovered PK Design Lab stuff, then started accumulating vintage flashlights instead. Later I stockpiled Pentagons after finding a small cache.


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## Modernflame (Oct 12, 2017)

Sometimes I am nagged by the fear that the P60 drop in era will come to an end. I can imagine my future self pining for today's current options.


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## eh4 (Oct 13, 2017)

One off 3d printing and reductive milling will make custom production standard. 
AI assisted circuit design will be there right alongside with the regular old custom, run of one manufacturing.


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## Timothybil (Oct 13, 2017)

There are still a lot of single or few mode lights out there of moderate power. Streamlight has the Microstream and several versions of the Stylus Pro, the ProTac EMS (AA, 3.5/10/50 lumens), and several other ProTac AA lights. Nitecore has the EA11 (AA-200 lumens max/14500 - 900 lumens max) and several other single AA lights, the MT06/MT06MD AAA penlights, the EA41 4xAA light for a little more output, and several other single AA lights. Lumintop has the various Tools and the Worms, Nitecore also has the Tip and Tube keychain lights. Those are the ones I can speak to, I know there are a lot of others out there from the other brands.

For a while I was always stepping up: TM11 to EA8 to TM16 to TM16GT, with an EA45S snuck off to the side. After I got my EA11 and my P30 the others are all going to our favorite auction site after I get moved to my new apartment. I've still got my G2 and 6P standing by as well.


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## Lou Minescence (Oct 13, 2017)

I am glad I purchased some lower output lights from a few years ago. I use beacon mode when riding my bike. Most beacon modes on lights flash at maximum. 500 lumens is more than enough. I am afraid a 2000 lumen flash will cause a car - bike accident due to blinding a driver. I find other bike riders with extreme bright beacon and strobe lights annoying myself.


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## moozooh (Oct 13, 2017)

The only mode of output that has doubled in the past four years is the high(est) one. Lows and mids stayed where they were. If you're mainly using those, hardly anything changes for you, although I guess it's a problem if you have an extra mode you have to work around somehow. But with e.g. the recent ZebraLight UI you can turn the high modes off _entirely_ and still have a perfectly capable and very efficient light.

The beacon/strobe mode argument is very valid though. I'm extremely wary of using my ~1000lm light in 4Hz strobe even in full daylight when I'm cycling with it. I wish there was a way to configure it for quarter brightness or something.


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## Keitho (Oct 13, 2017)

Instead of settling for inferior LED from years ago, I think good driver software is the answer to the complaints of "too many modes", "I don't need high modes," "not enough low modes," etc. For example, the M43 (not exactly new anymore) has three programmable modes of any power; the newer Zebralights have three programmable modes of any power including a couple sub-lumen; the next update to the D4 and D1 are reported to have a programmable max level; Vinh's newer drivers have several single-level and 2-level options, and a couple options that only go to 30 percent max power; most of the drivers on mtn electronics have programmable levels, single level mode groups, and many low power options. 

Perfect example: my non-flashaholic wife uses a Vinh light that I set up as 2 mode with a very low max temp thermal regulation setting. She loves it as a bedside light, and I giggle to myself at the pleasing color temp, throw, and craftsmanship packed into that little beauty.

So, while nostalgia means that I'll hang on to my favorite older lights, the performance and programmability of good, newer lights will keep getting me excited about advancements in efficiency, tint, and CRI.


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## Keitho (Oct 13, 2017)

moozooh said:


> I'm extremely wary of using my ~1000lm light in 4Hz strobe even in full daylight when I'm cycling with it. I wish there was a way to configure it for quarter brightness or something.



Amen to that! I just got a driver from MTN electronics with Dr. Jones software that allows programming the bike flasher mode to different power levels. I haven't built it into a light yet, but I'm excited for it, and hope more folks add this feature.


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## bykfixer (Oct 13, 2017)

When I first joined a hot rod forum I had recently discovered an engineering marvel that 15 years later was still the benchmark most car makers still tried to achieve. Well the masses at the forum were all into zipettee-dd-dah mods galore by aftermarket companies using gimmicks and glitter as their pitch. Being the oldest member there my views were largely squashed by crowd noise or just dismissed as ignorance.

I quietly set about building on the engineering marvels using stock parts and pieces slightly modified to acquire that little bit of extra while maintaining a maintenance free objective. No over the top nonsense that breaks easily, but extra zoom with durability in mind. 
Some 3 years later after spending 10's of thousands of dollars on the latest, greatest stuff the voices that had long scoffed at my ideas began quietly asking what was my secret. I just smiled and said "factory upgrades". 

When I arrived here it was similar. I had just discovered the engineering marvel of a 325 lumen LED. Like my 1990's car I set about learning all I could, acquiring lots of stuff on the clearance rack and enjoying said marvel(s) while quietly going about obtaining "factory upgrade" type modifications by some really smart people who are already doing pretty much what I woulda done in time. I don't have to spend a bunch of dough on tools, hours performing R&D nor placing my investment into a money pit only to get back pennies on the dollar. Others have already so I just drop by the WTS section and browse for things I'd like to add. 

It's also been a pleasure to meet some of the players along the way. And like the car forum I've made a few friends along the way.


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## rookiedaddy (Oct 13, 2017)

@mickb, you are not alone... these are mine...





simple and not blinding... I initially thought the E05 may not live beyond 2 years on my keychain, so I haul up as many as I could without raising suspicious to my better half, but my first E05 lasted 4+ years, and my second E05 is showing no sign of retiring either. I think I still have a few new-in-box stashed somewhere... 

and then there comes a Fenix E10, a single AA single mode neutral white light that simply refuse to die, even after I overdrive it by feeding it 14500 for about a year, the light still lights up albeit lower than the standard brightness (60 lumens)... like E05, I took the concept of backup of a backup of a backup of a backup for a spin...




I stashed them to some BOBs and GHBs and places I could not remember anymore...
:candle:

wholeheartedly agree that 30-80 lumens range is plentiful for daily use.


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## Ozythemandias (Oct 13, 2017)

Just buy HDS and you have nothing to worry about


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## arKmm (Oct 13, 2017)

I kept trying to get more and more brightness and then came to the realisation that the only difference between a 800 and 2000 lumen torch is the run-times! The negligible perceivable brightness change isn't worth it for the extra heat, shorter usage times, increased step-downs, and higher price.

I now chase a good tint and profile, good form factor, and UI over anything else. As such, I'm about to swap out a custom 3000lm Maglite for a 800lm Streamlight.


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## Swedpat (Oct 13, 2017)

Interesting thread, and a justified question. I actually have thought in this way. I don't like the race for lumens with ultra high brightness levels requiring step down, and unprotected high drain cells to reach the brightness at all. 
Not all brands follow this trend, however. Malkoff Devices is a trustworthy manufacturer when it comes to fair specifications. Nothing exaggerated, just simple usefulness. I think Armytek is fair as well. Yes; the newest models of Armytek have a turbo2 level which I consider as overpowered(requires unprotected cell and will be too hot for continious run) but you can program it to turbo1 which is not. And you can't change the turbo level by mistake. Armytek has several brightness modes but you can use the light as a single or two mode light.


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## peter yetman (Oct 13, 2017)

It's time to blow the dust off Archimedes' Graph...





P


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## archimedes (Oct 13, 2017)

peter yetman said:


> It's time to blow the dust off Archimedes' Graph....



I have an Arc AAA (Yuji mod) incoming tomorrow :twothumbs


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## jorn (Oct 13, 2017)

Buy a malkoff md-2 with hi/lo ring and the drop in you want. I like the LL and LLL version of malkoff dropins. Not too bright, and long runtime. Ony two modes, high will be as dim/bright as you want depending on how many L's you choose. And you got a lo mode if you untwist the head 1/4 turn. It's oldscool, and it just works.... forever.


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## bykfixer (Oct 13, 2017)

archimedes said:


> I have an Arc AAA (Yuji mod) incoming tomorrow :twothumbs



Good score


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## Ozythemandias (Oct 13, 2017)

peter yetman said:


> It's time to blow the dust off Archimedes' Graph...
> P



I haven't seen so much genius condensed into such a simple image in a long time


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## StarHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

Bluetooth interface with app that allows you to set number of modes and outputs; A copy for yourself with 500-60 lumens, a copy for grandpa that's single mode 100 lumens, a copy for power outages that's 100-25-0.1 lumens, and it's all copies of the same light..


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## LeanBurn (Oct 13, 2017)

Of all my lights, my 95+CRI Yuji modded Maglite 2AAA single mode twisty gets the most use....and it is less than 10L...cost to me was less than $8.

All the rest of my lights (except the TN4A HI) are 250L max or less.


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## cp2315 (Oct 13, 2017)

I understand what you are saying mick. In real use (for me that is a week camping at Acadia NP every year), I tend to use moderately powered lights more, for example, surefire G2X, Elzetta bravo with M60, old faithful fenix LD20... and am comfortable to let the family to use them freely. All those "family-friendly" lights are less than 400 lumens.

Anything more than 1000 lumens (for example ZL SC600 III HI) I keep to myself, afraid of blinding someone or overheating when untended. They are sure fun to play with, but not practical.


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## ZMZ67 (Oct 13, 2017)

I have found that if I find a light I like it is in my interest to buy multiple units. It isn't so much to protect against "too much" power but because the designs and UIs seem to change over time and other times lights are just discontinued altogether.


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## ven (Oct 13, 2017)

Just come in from shining the x65vn, 10,500lm and 600kcd+ outside with the boss. She loves it, loves the 5000k " like daylight" beam...............So i enjoy my lumens and nothing will change there. However, this weeks flavour of the month kicks out a whopping 320lm max in 5000k luxeon T flavour. The light is the sc62d, really enjoying it on the H2 setting(H1 is 320, H2 is 145lm iirc) for a do it all output. It ended up in my jacket this morning(you know those subconscious things you do, already having another ZL in my inside pocket). So i used it today as my work light on the compressors. 









Quite a few of my light i can program, one is in the body of a z2 and has a quad 218b 4000k with the h17f driver(dr jones). This has many options, 2 mode groups of up to 7 levels each, all pre set to what level you want out of 24!. I simply have it set to a 1 mode, guess around 300lm ish for again, a do it all level(i like simplicity..............). 

As mentioned, the driver made by Tom and tweaked by toykeeper is today one of the best imho. Ramping UI, instant low/high and pre-set 350ma level(works out around 140 useful lumens). Bat check for voltage readout, parameter settings for driver temp..............goes on inc tactical mode which is like a max/momentary(press hold for light, release and it goes off). 

So even today with crazy 30s outputs, some can be tweaked or used with ease at more sustainable levels without burning retinas or anything within 100ft. Yes output gives me all this time on, but when its time to use for specific applications, i can dial in the output required. This is anywhere between 25 and 300lm in general, most uses i would put between 100 -200lm. Having 1 or 2 lights myself its still hard to (ok impossible) to have 1 light that works for all my applications. So i have several, different fuels(from 10180 to 26650), different forms, different colour temps and tints. Different LED's, beams be it orange peel,smooth reflectors ,optics be it clear, narrow and frosted etc etc. Then UI, be it rotary,infinite, side switch, rear forward,reverse clicky, multi mode along with single..............you get the picture. Lots of variety which is not always the most user friendly way to go, but keeps my interest constant.

Variety is the spice of light!


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## archimedes (Oct 13, 2017)

ZMZ67 said:


> I have found that if I find a light I like it is in my interest to buy multiple units. It isn't so much to protect against "too much" power but because the designs and UIs seem to change over time and other times lights are just discontinued altogether.


I sorta wish I'd gotten a few LF2XT when they were $60 new ... a couple dozen of those would've probably been sufficient


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## Ozythemandias (Oct 13, 2017)

archimedes said:


> I sorta wish I'd gotten a few LF2XT when they were $60 new ... a couple dozen of those would've probably been sufficient



A couple hundred of those would've probably been sufficient to live a luxuries lifestyle now with the going rates


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## Ozythemandias (Oct 13, 2017)

archimedes said:


> I sorta wish I'd gotten a few LF2XT when they were $60 new ... a couple dozen of those would've probably been sufficient



A couple hundred of those would've probably been sufficient to live a luxuries lifestyle now with the going rates


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## Slumber (Oct 13, 2017)

cp2315 said:


> All those "family-friendly" lights are less than 400 lumens.



That’s a great way to put it...Family Friendly Lights. I take comfort in knowing someone can just use the damn thing without having to think about it.


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## Gt390 (Oct 13, 2017)

Family friendly or nonflashaholic friendly is a good description of a lot of my favorite lights. I have a simple single mode 4K hi cri Malkoff single aa. It is probably 120 lumens and the output might be anemic to some. But it is the light that most people respond favorably to, well till they find out the price. But it is easy to use , no extra clicking or blinding blue/white glare just a nice reasonably bright pleasent light output.


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## bykfixer (Oct 13, 2017)

My non flashaholic comrads really dig the Malkoff M31W beam from a 2xaa Rayovac indestructable... until they find out it was $15 plus $42 for "the light bulb" lol. (Plus $25 for the 8 pack of eneloop pro's and $36 for the Nitecore D4 charger)


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## xdayv (Oct 13, 2017)

Just added back some 6P + Malkoff drop-ins, and some more P60 incan bulbs!


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## Gt390 (Oct 13, 2017)

Yes bykfixer they really like the heft of it and that it feels so solid. Plus the beam looks like a very bright incan of old. The reaction is always smiles and comments like what a tough little light. Followed by the old slowly handing it back with a disbelieving expression when they find out the price.


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## Slumber (Oct 13, 2017)

I never mention price or give unsolicited recommendations for lights. Even when asked for advice, I’m reluctant. If I try to edit down the compromises to match their level of interest, I end up sounding like Rain Man.


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## Chad Varnadore (Oct 13, 2017)

You can buy a pair of Ironclad Exo Tactical impact gloves - most colors, other than maybe black, are still shipping with a "free" (if you buy the marketing) Nebo LED flashlight. It's one mode only, takes a AA battery (included) and is probably in the 50 lumen range.


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## Lou Minescence (Oct 13, 2017)

One brand of light that might be future proof is Zebralight. I mostly use the lower modes on all my lights. The problem with most of the high lumen output lights is the huge jumps in their mode spacings. Example is my recent Acebeam L30. Nice light with a 1 lumen low. The problem us the next step up is 200 lumens. There should be a 40 lumen choice in between. The mode steps get bigger from there. Zebralight has lots of lower settings before it gets to 200 lumens. Then the Zebralights have a nice high setting. 
A big blast of lumens doesn’t bother me as long as I have enough low settings. There is no need to stay away from lights with thousands of lumens as long as they have a useful low selection.
Older lights had tighter mode spacing and therefore were more practical.


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## ZMZ67 (Oct 13, 2017)

archimedes said:


> I sorta wish I'd gotten a few LF2XT when they were $60 new ... a couple dozen of those would've probably been sufficient



I missed out on the Liteflux LF2XT. Debated for a while but never pulled the trigger :shakehead Wish I had a "few" neutral LF2XTs myself. Heck I am still lamenting the fact that I didn't buy multiples of the original X1s and CMG Infinitys with green LEDs!


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## dgbrookman (Oct 13, 2017)

Really agree with the overall sentiment of this thread. My favorite AAA light is the one Thrunite Ti2 that I have left -- 3 lumens on low is perfect for many close-up tasks like reading menus in a dark restaurant, and 81 lumens on high is plenty for most other things. (Always wondered why it was 81 lumens and not just 80. As if one extra lumen made any difference.) Dead simple interface -- twist a little for low, twist a little more for high, no back-and-forth twisting to get the mode you want. I know they had their QC problems but I wish I had bought a dozen before they were discontinued.

Of course it's all a matter of personal preference. If a 5,000 lumen light with 12 different strobe modes is what floats your boat, who am I to argue.


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## seery (Oct 13, 2017)

For our use, the K60/K70 are the two best lights ever produced. We have a couple of both that get used almost daily around our farm and property. 

But the thought of them going Dodo (and the fact it seems Acebeam is moving away from control ring UI) was enough that we bought two more of each for a rainy day.


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## Phlogiston (Oct 14, 2017)

It's not just flashaholics that think that way  

I gave old-model Fenix lights (E05, E11 & E21) to family members sometime in 2012 / 2013, and those lights aren't going anywhere. I've offered upgrades to brighter and higher-CRI lights, but no. They're simple, they work and my family are quite happy with them. I've actually kept some spares - the ones I used to EDC, along with my spares from that time - so that I can replace them when they eventually bite the dust. 

That'll be a while, because they just keep on going. The only one I've seen fail so far got taken out by an alkaleak. Fortunately, the head was undamaged, so it went back into storage as a spare. I upgraded everyone to Eneloops and decent chargers after that incident. 

Personally, I'm less worried about future-proofing against unnecessarily powerful lights. As long as I can still get lights with a well-spaced mode sequence, starting on low with no mode memory, then I'll be fine. Convoy lights with ToyKeeper's Biscotti firmware have been working nicely for me lately. I don't mind having strobes and stupendously high-powered modes in there, because I never have to look at them unless I want to. 

I will admit to buying spares of lights I like, though, so you could consider that future-proofing against good stuff being discontinued with no direct replacement. I still think wistfully of what could have been if Sunwayman had given the V20A a Nichia 219B instead of discontinuing it. They'd be mulling over a 219C upgrade now... 

*sniff*


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## mickb (Oct 14, 2017)

my problem is I am averse to too much complexity. Some of the replies above , whilst appreciated, along the lines of superior interfaces/apps extra programming levels show the difference between my generation and there's. Not in that I can't handle the complexity, but I can't handle the potential failure rate. I just watched one review on youtube, the young guy happily extolling the virtues of a great light and his comment said" the first light had a problem but the company sent me a replacement in 3 days, great customer service!". great customer service to my generation is the salesman smiling warmly as he facilitates my purchase and me never to talk to him again. Because the item lasts 20 years or was superceded well before breaking down. This appears to be a forgotten possibility to most and a completely unknown concept to the younger generation who are giving themselves high fives if an electronic item makes the 3-4 year mark without failing. But I am onto a separate rant now  As to malkoff I am looking to get some of his 1aa and 2aa lights shortly.


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## peter yetman (Oct 14, 2017)

You've just echoed everything I wanted to say. Thank you.
P


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## Modernflame (Oct 14, 2017)

mickb said:


> Because the item lasts 20 years or was superceded well before breaking down. This appears to be a forgotten possibility to most and a completely unknown concept to the younger generation who are giving themselves high fives if an electronic item makes the 3-4 year mark without failing.



I could sing this song with you all day. We may be relics in a disposable culture.


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## turbodog (Oct 14, 2017)

I grabbed several single-mode aaa keychain lights. Fenix... think the lumens are about 60-80 approx. Am really glad I did this. Single mode lights save so much time and trouble.

Other than that... I'm ok with multi-mode or variable output models (hds). However, with hds I'm tired of having all the lights be slightly different in programming.


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## caddylover (Oct 14, 2017)

I have 5 E01's still in their boxes, future just in case lights.


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## 1pt21 (Oct 14, 2017)

LeanBurn said:


> Of all my lights, my 95+CRI Yuji modded Maglite 2AAA single mode twisty gets the most use....and it is less than 10L...cost to me was less than $8.
> 
> All the rest of my lights (except the TN4A HI) are 250L max or less.



This modded 2xaaa mag sounds very interesting to me. The 2xaaa is one of my favorite of the smaller mags, and I do have many.

Would you happen to have a link to the details of this mod? Or perhaps mind PM'ing me nay details??


Thanks a lot, I appreciate any info on this mod that I would love to try out!!! :twothumbs


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## bykfixer (Oct 15, 2017)

This thread is pulling in all the members. Woohoo!!

PK once told me he remarked to an owner who wanted him to build a programable light "I still haven't figured out how to program my TV remote, why do I want to have to figure out how to program a flashlight?" He said "I want to push the button and get light, push button again, no light".

A good old Maglite is still a good old Maglite.


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## LeanBurn (Oct 15, 2017)

To clarify...that $8 includes the minimag 2AAA and the Yuji LED.

PM sent 1pt21.


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## mickb (Oct 15, 2017)

bykfixer said:


> This thread is pulling in all the members. Woohoo!!
> 
> PK once told me he remarked to an owner who wanted him to build a programable light "I still haven't figured out how to program my TV remote, why do I want to have to figure out how to program a flashlight?" He said "I want to push the button and get light, push button again, no light".
> 
> A good old Maglite is still a good old Maglite.



I agree bykfixer and appreciate experienced members like yourself giving input. I am learning other options on the thread, for example searching earlier versions of current models which may be more suitable for my purposes. Eg the basic Fenix E01 and E11 which I am now going to buy a few of as well as E05 and E12.


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## Phlogiston (Oct 15, 2017)

As someone who mentioned the old-model Fenix E11 and E21, I should also mention that those are actually two-mode lights. The mode is selected by slightly loosening or tightening the head. 

For both lights, the mnemonic is "Tight is bright, loose is low". The tail switch is a simple forward clicky, so you can set the head for the mode you want and forget it. Even now, it's a wonderfully elegant method for simple lights to offer two brightnesses. 

Colour temperature's not bad, either - definitely cool white, but not disgustingly blue or anything. I have to say that my preference is for 5000K neutral white lights, though, so your mileage may vary if you prefer warmer colour temperatures. 

If Fenix started selling these again, but with 5000K Nichia 219Bs in them, I'd buy some all over again! 

Can you tell I just pulled a couple out of my stash to play with?  



mickb said:


> [...] great customer service to my generation is the salesman smiling warmly as he facilitates my purchase and me never to talk to him again. Because the item lasts 20 years or was superceded well before breaking down. This appears to be a forgotten possibility to most and a completely unknown concept to the younger generation who are giving themselves high fives if an electronic item makes the 3-4 year mark without failing. [...]



Well, I'm an engineer, and I second this wholeheartedly. The modern culture of commercialised disposability really annoys me, because of the ludicrous wastage it brings with it. 

By the way, which generation does being forty-something qualify me for?


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## terjee (Oct 15, 2017)

I am future-proofing, but I’m taking a completely different route.

For me, no matter if a light is simple or complex, I still have trust issues with electronics. ;-)

I want a (small, but still) stash of lights that’s served me well over some time, that I know won’t die during the first month of usage.

Then I want variations of those, such as considering the new Mk IV Zebralights, despite being happy with Mk III. If there turns out to be something systematically wrong that causes death in a year in one model, I’ll hopefully have a different version with different issues instead. ;-)

If my current light fails, I should then be able to fall back on a previous light, from a collection of proven ones.

I do agree there’s a concern about “too powerful”, but for me that enters into the equation for which new ones I add, more than just getting more of the same. It’s one one the primary drivers towards lights like Zebralights, and soon HDS.


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## martinaee (Oct 15, 2017)

rookiedaddy said:


> @mickb, you are not alone... these are mine...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Holy cow.... I was about to scroll down and say we should stockpile E05's and E01's. But you make the joke obsolete  I now need more of those lights. I've never even seen that E10 either. Damn!


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## martinaee (Oct 15, 2017)

terjee said:


> I am future-proofing, but I’m taking a completely different route.
> 
> For me, no matter if a light is simple or complex, I still have trust issues with electronics. ;-)
> 
> ...




Which lights do you personally find to be "trustable?" Something simple like an E01?


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## Phlogiston (Oct 15, 2017)

terjee said:


> I am future-proofing, but I’m taking a completely different route.
> 
> For me, no matter if a light is simple or complex, I still have trust issues with electronics. ;-)



Hmm, there's a good point. 

My credit card is safe, though, because I have Convoy S2+ lights and plenty of spare parts for same. One of many things I like about the way Convoy do things - you can get spares for every part of the S2+ as a matter of course. 

Between those and my stash of superseded lights, that should do the trick


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## Burgess (Oct 15, 2017)

Great thread here !


lovecpf



I myself find the Low and Medium settings
to be much more useful for MY needs .


:thumbsup:
_


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## eh4 (Oct 15, 2017)

I really think that the relatively high failure rate is a function of innovation out pacing competence. New, hot stuff thrown together (with a warranty), this year's hot #### becomes the next year's baseline, and good engineering takes hold, I'm not worried about that. 
We don't hear much about alpha and beta testing here in flashlight world, but that's also what's going on.


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## oKtosiTe (Oct 16, 2017)

I suppose I might be a bit of a special case here. My eyes don't adjust to darkness nearly as much or as fast as most people's, so there are quite a few situations where I actually need a quick blast of 1000+ lumens. That said though, accidentally blasting that kind of light when it's not needed is no fun. There's definitely room for UI improvement in many pocket rockets.

I'm planning to get an Emisar D4 soon. Kind of hoping the v3 UI will make it to production, because the firmware flashing doesn't look that straight-forward.


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## mickb (Oct 16, 2017)

I bought what I thought was a simple headlamp option for my mother HL-23 fenix. Found the house blacked out when I visited tonight due to storms. She was sitting happily in the lounge room, reading a book, with the HL23 on high setting aka 150 lumens! Damn near blinded me when she looked up as I came in the room. I had told her a couple of times there are lower settings, she said this time she forgot and just turned it on and used it( goes to high right away). Also had to remind her to unscrew the cap to prevent parasitic drain. This is a basic go-to light option by flashaholic standards... but it clear its not family, or at least aged member friendly. So now I am hunting for lower lumen, single mode high IPX rated, non draining headlamp....how far back am I going for this one 2011, 2012, 2013?


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## Boris74 (Oct 16, 2017)

mickb said:


> I bought what I thought was a simple headlamp option for my mother HL-23 fenix. Found the house blacked out when I visited tonight due to storms. She was sitting happily in the lounge room, reading a book, with the HL23 on high setting aka 150 lumens! Damn near blinded me when she looked up as I came in the room. I had told her a couple of times there are lower settings, she said this time she forgot and just turned it on and used it( goes to high right away). Also had to remind her to unscrew the cap to prevent parasitic drain. This is a basic go-to light option by flashaholic standards... but it clear its not family, or at least aged member friendly. So now I am hunting for lower lumen, single mode high IPX rated, non draining headlamp....how far back am I going for this one 2011, 2012, 2013?



get her an H1R neutral white. Great tint and memory means it can come on in the 2 lumen mode and it’s perfect for reading. It will run forever on 2 lumens per charge. No need to loosen the tail cap, the battery don’t discharge itself much at all. Just slap it on the magnetic charger a couple times a year to top it off for her.


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## terjee (Oct 16, 2017)

martinaee said:


> Which lights do you personally find to be "trustable?" Something simple like an E01?



No hard criteria really, more a combination of reading other peoples experience, experiencing few or no issues over time myself, despite accidental abuse, combined with a highly unscientific gut feeling. I don’t at all need them to be simple from an electrical perspective, more circuits can hurt, but also help. Temperature protection for example, is both adding complexity and reliability. Could compromise reliability as well, so it serves as a useful example of why it boils down to gut feeling at some point.

I really liked the EagleTac D25LC2 clickie initially, and it’s performed flawlessly and reliably for both my kid and me, but I eventually failed it as a primary because the twist for mode-group selection turned out to be an obstacle to effortlessly getting it to do what I wanted.

After getting used to Zebralights, I think I’d fail any light without a low low.

I guess what I’m getting at is that it’s not just about reliability in terms of “not die”, but in an expanded sense of the words, including “reliably do what I need it to”.


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## snakebite (Oct 16, 2017)

my perfect light would be a single 18650 with nichia 219 5000k high cri with a simple 2 button control.
up down only.
starting at a barely detectable glow with a smooth step free ramp up to full output.
no blinkies or hidden ok.
and no nasty pwm.
remember there is no such thing as a too bright flashlight.
just a poor ui.
make it start from either end of the ramp depending on which button you push and easy to feel the buttons for dark startup by feel so you dont get blasted while dark adapted.


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## ven (Oct 16, 2017)

I class these lights as future proof, most have been around for a decade or so anyway. The hosts imo are timeless, the engines(p60's) can be upgraded or ran on incand.............choices are almost endless. Single mode, 2 mode..............any amount of modes! 1 LED, 4 LED's................different flavours of.


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## iamlucky13 (Oct 16, 2017)

archimedes said:


> I have an Arc AAA (Yuji mod) incoming tomorrow :twothumbs



I hope you're enjoying it. In addition to...you know...using them for lighting purposes, I still can't resist just playing with my Yuji-modded lights from time-to-time for how clean and cozy the beam is. And the 1 x AAA format is perfect for it.

Regrettably, the Sunwayman R01a I swapped a Yuji is not working after taking a two falls from a ~5' onto a hard floor (I got over confident after it survived the first fall). It's clearly no E01 replacement. I need to open it up again to see if I can figure it out.



LeanBurn said:


> Of all my lights, my 95+CRI Yuji modded Maglite 2AAA single mode twisty gets the most use....and it is less than 10L...cost to me was less than $8.



You inspired me to the do the same with a Maglite 2AA. I know it will dim quite a bit as the batteries drain, but it's such a light load it will run a long time before that happens. I didn't think this mod would work as well as it does.

I wasn't feeling great last night. I wanted to relax and go to bed early. I know some people like to take a bath by candlelight when they feel like that.

I instead took a shower by Yuji light, with the Maglite standing in the corner.

If there's ever another Yuji 5mm group buy, I think I will need to future proof against the possibility of them going out of production.


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## gurdygurds (Oct 16, 2017)

Ahh yes. Flashlight showers. One of my favorite past times. Having had an arc Yuji mod and an E01s with the Vihn warm Nichia I can say they’re very similar but the Yuji was a cleaner beam for sure. The e01 tailstands which makes it a perfect flashlight shower companion. If E01s were ever discontinued I’d buy a load of em’.


iamlucky13 said:


> I hope you're enjoying it. In addition to...you know...using them for lighting purposes, I still can't resist just playing with my Yuji-modded lights from time-to-time for how clean and cozy the beam is. And the 1 x AAA format is perfect for it.
> 
> Regrettably, the Sunwayman R01a I swapped a Yuji is not working after taking a two falls from a ~5' onto a hard floor (I got over confident after it survived the first fall). It's clearly no E01 replacement. I need to open it up again to see if I can figure it out.
> 
> ...


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## archimedes (Oct 16, 2017)

archimedes said:


> I have an Arc AAA (Yuji mod) incoming tomorrow :twothumbs





iamlucky13 said:


> I hope you're enjoying it....



Yes, the tint and CRI is fantastic, in the sense that I am a fan of it, and wonderful, in the sense that I wonder how they did it ... :thinking: :shrug:


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## Phlogiston (Oct 16, 2017)

iamlucky13 said:


> If there's ever another Yuji 5mm group buy, I think I will need to future proof against the possibility of them going out of production.



I have the nasty feeling they may already be on the way out. If you look at the Yuji web store, you can't get 5600K in either emission angle. 3200K are available in both emission angles (45° and 60°), but you now have to buy a much larger pack of 1000, so it looks like they're trying to offload them. 

That sometimes means a company is discontinuing a line, especially in the absence of any indication that a new and improved version might be on the way. I really hope I'm wrong, though!


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## xdayv (Oct 16, 2017)

ven said:


> I class these lights as future proof, most have been around for a decade or so anyway. The hosts imo are timeless, the engines(p60's) can be upgraded or ran on incand.............choices are almost endless. Single mode, 2 mode..............any amount of modes! 1 LED, 4 LED's................different flavours of.



+1 on the incand compatibility. just what I did, refer to my post #35 on the previous page... but i concur yours are the exotic ones. :candle:


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## eh4 (Oct 18, 2017)

Phlogiston said:


> I have the nasty feeling they may already be on the way out. If you look at the Yuji web store, you can't get 5600K in either emission angle. 3200K are available in both emission angles (45° and 60°), but you now have to buy a much larger pack of 1000, so it looks like they're trying to offload them.
> 
> That sometimes means a company is discontinuing a line, especially in the absence of any indication that a new and improved version might be on the way. I really hope I'm wrong, though!



I'm thinking seriously about ordering 1000 of the 3200k 45 degree Yuji when 130$ + shipping is feasible, it'll be broadcast for group buy ins when/If I do. 

If I learn that I can get a more modern high CRI warm led that's as efficient or more efficient at single and double mA levels then I'll go with a few of them instead.
My understanding at current level of ignorance though is that newer, better leds aren't any better at these very low power levels.


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## eh4 (Oct 18, 2017)

And then there's these: 
https://store.yujiintl.com/collections/high-cri-leds-sale/products/bc-series-smd-2835


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## mickb (Oct 19, 2017)

Boris74 said:


> get her an H1R neutral white. Great tint and memory means it can come on in the 2 lumen mode and it’s perfect for reading. It will run forever on 2 lumens per charge. No need to loosen the tail cap, the battery don’t discharge itself much at all. Just slap it on the magnetic charger a couple times a year to top it off for her.



Honestly thanks, but I am trying to go simpler than a HL-23 for an aged user and youve recommended a 600 Lumen headlamp with 7 levels and functions .


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## mickb (Oct 19, 2017)

ven said:


> I class these lights as future proof, most have been around for a decade or so anyway. The hosts imo are timeless, the engines(p60's) can be upgraded or ran on incand.............choices are almost endless. Single mode, 2 mode..............any amount of modes! 1 LED, 4 LED's................different flavours of.




Love the collection!


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## Boris74 (Oct 19, 2017)

mickb said:


> Honestly thanks, but I am trying to go simpler than a HL-23 for an aged user and youve recommended a 600 Lumen headlamp with 7 levels and functions .



The hl-23 comes on in high mode and has no memory. The H1R has memory for moon light. It don’t get much easier than that. No need to even remove the battery to recharge or change it. Even easier. 

I bet she drives a 1998 crown Vic with power locks, windows, mirrors, seats and so on. If anyone can’t figure out long press to 2 lumens and has an issue with the memorized 2 lumens, they will need to have someone there to operate it for them 

You’re too busy thinking outside the box to realize what’s in the box, olight has the easiest to use UI. The tint and beam are amazing on the H1R neutral white. 

I also use a Bushnell H65L that uses a single aaa battery. It won’t get any more simple than that. I would also recommend it.


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## ven (Oct 19, 2017)

mickb said:


> Love the collection!




Thank you mick, i have a few more dotted around(work and some just not in pic) but still a small collection compared to many here. The thing i love about the surefire hosts , solid, USA made and timeless imo. Being p60, they can be upgraded by simply swapping the p60! You can have 60lm incand, 3000lm quads or xhp70................and anything in between, throw bias, flood or a mix of both. The hosts will last forever...........most of the p60's will to! But if it does fail, its not a full light potentially lost...........just the engine.


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## mickb (Oct 19, 2017)

Boris74 said:


> The hl-23 comes on in high mode and has no memory. The H1R has memory for moon light. It dont get much easier than that. No need to even remove the battery to recharge or change it. Even easier.
> 
> I bet she drives a 1998 crown Vic with power locks, windows, mirrors, seats and so on. If anyone cant figure out long press to 2 lumens and has an issue with the memorized 2 lumens, they will need to have someone there to operate it for them
> 
> ...



The issue with the H1R is too many power levels , with the top ones depleting the batts quickly. She ramps too high for other tasks and leaves it there, she's in the dark an hour or so into the blackout. She may even try and use 2 lumens for everything because she will be clicking the light on and off when I assume its hold down to advance modes. Also its a new battery size I'd have to get her to store, and USB charging as an option? No offence as you obviously like the light for yourself but its about as complex and uneccessary a light I can think of for her situation. As you say she's been driving for 50 years, but old country folk sometimes have no interest in new tech. I am aiming for 1-2 modes, low lumen max, if she chooses wrong, she has hours of lighting....and won't start lighting candles.


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## terjee (Oct 19, 2017)

mickb said:


> The issue with the H1R is too many power levels , with the top ones depleting the batts quickly. She ramps too high for other tasks and leaves it there, she's in the dark an hour or so into the blackout. She may even try and use 2 lumens for everything because she will be clicking the light on and off when I assume its hold down to advance modes. Also its a new battery size I'd have to get her to store, and USB charging as an option? No offence as you obviously like the light for yourself but its about as complex and uneccessary a light I can think of for her situation. As you say she's been driving for 50 years, but old country folk sometimes have no interest in new tech. I am aiming for 1-2 modes, low lumen max, if she chooses wrong, she has hours of lighting....and won't start lighting candles.



I’m curious how the new Zebralights UI would be for such users. All the modes are programmable, so it would be easier to set up with a selection of good tradeoffs, ranging from low to lower basically. Click on to get a decent runtime/lumen balance, hold on to go directly to another lower mode, but both offering long runtimes.

Note; I’m asking, not suggesting.


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## bykfixer (Oct 19, 2017)

Mick,

I'll try to mention something seasoned folks can easily figure out and keep this train on the same track....

Maglite products. Easy to find, easy to use and still built to last a good long time. Many-a Mag has been destroyed by leaking batteries. But Rayovac batteries are really good at not leaking. I have various sizes in all kinds of lights stored indoors, in cars, in my home and office with ZERO leaks in 3 years. None.

Maglite products are not quite as popular as they once were but still some of the easiest lights to figure out. Past, present and future Maglite products have 2 things in mind.. simplicity and reliability. 

We flashlight fanatics knock 'em around a whole lot but to the casual user they are tough to beat. You can get her an incan 2D for $20, swap out the bulb with a nite ize LED for about $7 and an 8 pack of Ravovacs for about $7 will get her through several nights without power. 

Now those little Energizer headlamps are also quite the value. I work construction and see them all over the place night after night month after month. Again some Rayovac triple A cells can be left in the light without worry. The workers get 2-3 nights of use per cell swap. That is 10-12 hour shifts. They dim as the battery depletes so when it's too dim you just swap out the batteries. 
Keep it simple bro.


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## elzilcho (Oct 19, 2017)

With age comes degraded vision. Just because YOU want to use the lowest setting possible doesn't mean SHE can use that same setting comfortably. If she likes the light(s) she has now, then let her use the lumen level that gives her the amount of light she needs. If you're worried she's going to start lighting candles when the batteries run out, then buy her more batteries. Problem solved and all without forcing her to use whatever lumen level or UI you have determined is best for her.


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## Boris74 (Oct 19, 2017)

mickb said:


> The issue with the H1R is too many power levels , with the top ones depleting the batts quickly. She ramps too high for other tasks and leaves it there, she's in the dark an hour or so into the blackout. She may even try and use 2 lumens for everything because she will be clicking the light on and off when I assume its hold down to advance modes. Also its a new battery size I'd have to get her to store, and USB charging as an option? No offence as you obviously like the light for yourself but its about as complex and uneccessary a light I can think of for her situation. As you say she's been driving for 50 years, but old country folk sometimes have no interest in new tech. I am aiming for 1-2 modes, low lumen max, if she chooses wrong, she has hours of lighting....and won't start lighting candles.



I also have a Bushnell pro rechargeable lantern. It will light a full room brightly if needed. I mostly use it on one side dimmed down. When we go on camping trips it will go four days of constant hours on end use before I hook it up to a solar panel to charge. It also stores a long time fully charged and ready to use. It would be a much better option than any flashlight or headlamp. I can also charge my phone with it because it has an outgoing USB. I will from time to time charge the S1R or H1R with it.


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## iamlucky13 (Oct 19, 2017)

eh4 said:


> And then there's these:
> https://store.yujiintl.com/collections/high-cri-leds-sale/products/bc-series-smd-2835



We would need to figure out how to make use of them first, in case they don't work on an XP solder pad.

I also have been eying the much larger 135L series 1000 lumen COB's. I've almost got the necessary components to build a viable light out of them figured out.

If you want to discuss Yuji's more, maybe we should do that in one of the existing Yuji group buy threads, rather than interrupt the future proofing discussion further.

Regardless, if you do take the leap with the 5mm's, I should be in for a handful.


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## mickb (Oct 19, 2017)

elzilcho said:


> With age comes degraded vision. Just because YOU want to use the lowest setting possible doesn't mean SHE can use that same setting comfortably. If she likes the light(s) she has now, then let her use the lumen level that gives her the amount of light she needs. If you're worried she's going to start lighting candles when the batteries run out, then buy her more batteries. Problem solved and all without forcing her to use whatever lumen level or UI you have determined is best for her.



Your making assumptions about her vision, which is better than mine. And as to lumens levels she is not much interested in any of them, or keeping batteries being the problem, which is why I am making it as simple as possible. Not sure if you have any old folk living alone, but simplfying options is part of a list of things to make their lives easier.How about we get the thread back on track.


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## mickb (Oct 19, 2017)

bykfixer said:


> Mick,
> 
> I'll try to mention something seasoned folks can easily figure out and keep this train on the same track....
> 
> ...



Thanks bykfixer, excellent suggestions. I had one of the little headlamps myself ages ago. And maglites, they are probably still using a switch with 1-2 levels, right? I will check them out. Also thanks for the rescue , I was starting to regret bringing it up now, but I hijacked my own thread, so no one else to blame.


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## mickb (Oct 19, 2017)

Boris74 said:


> It would be a much better option than any flashlight or headlamp. I can also charge my phone with it because it has an outgoing USB. I will from time to time charge the S1R or H1R with it.


yes aware of the benefits of lanterns. She already has one. Headlamp is for backup, its better to EDC, take walking the boundary, around the house, the dog kennels, to the bathroom, to the car, aka what we use headlamps for, but lets not get into a headlamp vs handheld debate next, there's another forum to do that


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## bykfixer (Oct 19, 2017)

mickb said:


> Thanks bykfixer, excellent suggestions. I had one of the little headlamps myself ages ago. And maglites, they are probably still using a switch with 1-2 levels, right? I will check them out. Also thanks for the rescue , I was starting to regret bringing it up now, but I hijacked my own thread, so no one else to blame.



An incan 2D is future proof... see, still on track...
They come with a bi-pin bulb module that's easy to replace and readily available but... that was the past with its pleasant beam tint yet sucky runtimes... but with a nite ize drop in she'll get more output with way more runtime. They have 2 settings.. on and off. lol.

Now they also have those newfangled LED models with settings. Quick clicks get you high, medium and low. T'won't take her no time to get the hang of it. The ML50 comes in 2C or 3C. Both will easily light what you mentioned earlier on high. Medium in both is about 100 lumens with like a dozen hours of runtime. Low (or what Mag calls "eco" is about 20 lumens and stated to last like 15 days. 
And for the geek in you, there is the ability to change settings around some. But for her factory is ideal. Changing settings has to be done on purpose. It's like you have to push this, twist that and hold your left leg just right or something... so she won't be able to accidently change things around.

About $35 at big box stores. (Plus Rayovacs) If she don't mind a mini mag size, the price of ultimate lithiums is dropping to half price or less. 10 year storage life... which is future proofing for the next decade anyway.

I just future proofed my favorite Laser Products 6P with a Malkoff NLL drop in to go with the Malkoff McClicky tail stander tail cap. Like a P60 with a nice bright fresh battery beam for at least 10 hours...


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## Feahnor (Oct 20, 2017)

LeanBurn said:


> To clarify...that $8 includes the minimag 2AAA and the Yuji LED.
> 
> PM sent 1pt21.


I'm also interested in the mod.


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## BloodLust (Oct 21, 2017)

Yes. Which is why I still EDC a Fenix LD10 R5. 3 lumens low, 12 lumens med, 45 lumens high, 100 lumens turbo.
Fully tightened, starts at turbo. Slightly loosened, starts on low. Predictable every time I turn it on.
It's my favorite UI which started out with my Fenix P2D-CE and before they started doing side switches.

Added a 100 lumen stainless Nichia219 light to my EDC. UI is just L-M-H.

Light in my hand carry for airline travel is a Fenix E12.

Will be picking up some Malkoff P60 drop ins for my G2 and some hosts.


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## BloodLust (Oct 21, 2017)

Feahnor said:


> I'm also interested in the mod.



Same here please. Thank you!


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## 1pt21 (Oct 21, 2017)

Feahnor said:


> I'm also interested in the mod.





BloodLust said:


> Same here please. Thank you!



It's basically this:

- *SLOWLY* open up the OEM reflector enough to allow the LED to pass through
- Trim the legs on the LED to approx the same length as the OEM bi-pin bulb
- Slightly bend the legs of the LED to match the OEM bulb pin spacing
- If LED does not light, rotate 180* and re-insert

Easy as pie. Now the hard part: actually acquiring said LED's, good luck as I searched high and low. Also mentioned in this thread that they now may be unobtainium :shrug:


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## wjv (Oct 30, 2017)

I have several lights that top out around a 100 lumen or so, or have a wide set of mode choices on the lower end.

- Terralux - LightStar-80 High CRI
- Sunwayman - R01A
- Fenix - LD10
- L3 Illimination - L10
- Spark - SG5 (can go to 280L, but the other 4 modes are 110L or less)
- EagleTac - D25A
- EagleTac - TX25C (3 of the 5 modes are 130L or less)

And a few others.

While it's nice having a light with 3,200 lumen OTF, reality is that most tasks are best suited for a light that runs 150L or less. Yes there are exceptions to that. On my multi-mode 18650 or CR123 lights, I probably use the 150 lumen or less modes 10x more than the 500L+ modes


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