# MDs Lithium-Ion > Incandescent guide + compatability/comparison chart



## mdocod

INTRODUCTION :rock: 

This guide, represents everything I wish I could respond with, whenever a question about lithium-ion tactical flashlights is asked. Obviously, there is a lot to say on the subject. I think I have pretty much said it all here. Guide Revised 1/1/08 to reduce redundancy, and improve quality of information based on what I have learned since originally writing. 

New members to the forum are often intrigued by the lure of having a very powerful, compact flashlight, but are faced with the daunting task of scrounging through endless threads that cover only a fraction of the information needed to really get started using li-ion in a safe rewarding manner. This guide is LONG, sit back, grab a soda or a coffee, soak it up!





_Many CPF members have had great questions about using li-ion cells over the years, much of this guide was originally copy/pasted from my responses to those questions. The thread that originally inspired me to build this guide was started by CPF member MacSwift. Occasionally I come back and update or revise or improve the guide to include better wording or more complete information. So the original responses have been modified since._

The most common and simple li-ion conversions will take place in standard tactical lithium powered lights. G&P, Wolf Eyes, Lumens Factory, Pila, (and others), manufacture tactical lamps that are of the same basic design as a Surefire P series(like the P60, P90, etc). This is the basic starting point for most Lithium-Ion conversions. You pick out a host that supports one of the common lamp types, like the "P" series which are often called D26 or 26mm lamp assemblies, then mate it with an appropriate configuration of Lithium-Ion cells to power the lamp. There are more complicated setups available through the use of extenders, turbo heads, larger lamps, etc etc, Since this thread was originally made many things have changed, the availability of after-market lamps for the M series Surefire lights is now a reality (through LumensFactory) and more configurations are available now than ever.

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Understanding The Basics

In the world of lithium and lithium ion batteries... it is important to understand that lithium primary cells (also called photo lithium, or CR123A, or surefire cells) are about 16mm diameter by about 34mm long. They are sometimes referred to as 16340 sized cells. You probably already know that they deliver about 3 Volts, and have a capacity of about 1200-1600mAh depending on brand and how they are used. So a pair of these cells in a light like the C2(G2, 6P, etc) powers the "6V" rated lamp nicely... Other designations for common CR123A cells are: CR 123 3V, CR123, CR17345, K123A, VL123A, DL123A, DL123ABK, 5018LC, EL123AP, SF123, EL123APBP2, EL123APBP and SF123A 3V, etc etc. The important thing is that these are all Lithium Manganese Dioxide Cells intended for one-time use. They tend to be expensive to run if you use a light frequently, and therefor, switching to a rechargable chemistry cell is often desired. 

For this guide, I will pretty much be discussing one type of lithium-ion cell, a Lithium Cobalt Oxide cell. This is the "mainstream" chemistry found in most consumer devices from cell phones to laptops and MP3 players. From here forth, when I refer to a Li-Ion cells, I am talking about this type of cell unless I state otherwise. With different chemistry, usually comes different cell specifications and behaviors. 

[edited in 11/11/08] {I am going to be updating the compatibility chart to include a semi-recent advancement in li-ion tech, and that is LiMn, or Lithium Manganese Oxide rechargeable cells. While suffering from ~30% lower energy density as compared with the LiCo (lithium cobalt) chemistry cells that this guide covers, they can deliver higher drain rates safely, which allows for more compact configurations to be very bright but with short runtimes... I will include tidbits about these cells in the guide where information is critical, and try to include all possible combinations of LiMn powered configurations in the chart below.} 

The Li-Ion cells discussed in this guide operate at ~3.7V typical output, so a pair of 16340 sized lithium-ion rechargeable cells would blow a 6V lamp, but a single cell would under-power it, producing a brownish-yellow lousy output. Under-driven bulbs are also very inefficient(poor watt to lumen conversion). So, generally speaking, when we want to use rechargable lithium-ion cells in a light, we use one of the following 4 configurations.

*1. a 3.7V bulb powered by 1 Lithium-Ion Cell.
2. a "9V" bulb powered by 2 Lithium-Ion Cells.
3. a "13V" bulb powered by 3 Lithium-Ion Cells.
4. a carefully selected bi-pin bulb in a proper adapter, powered by an appropriate number of properly sized cells.... (these are more advanced options, I may mention a few in the charts in time)
There are many options in each range... For lights like the C2 that have room for 2 CR123 (16340) sized cells, you have 2 configurations available. "1" and "2" above.*

As it is now, Surefire is not really in the business of making lamps with Lithium-Ion cells in mind. So when dealing with Li-Ion, the only lamps that we can use from Surefire, are the 9V options. However, some people have experimented with their 12V lamps from the M series (turbo head configurations) and found they will often work in 3 Li-Ion cell configurations. SF does not intend for the lamps to be used this way, but many of us do. When we desire more configuration options, we turn to the other manufactures mentioned previously, who ARE in the business of making lamps with Li-Ion cells in mind.

Now it is also important to understand, that there are many different Sizes of Lithium-Ion cell available, and many different brands. There are also Protected Cells, and Bare Unprotected Cells.
There are 3 brands of cell you will find in a flashlight at CPF more than any other cells out there...
*1. AWs Protected Li-Ions, available in many sizes... they are available at Lighthound and through his sales thread in the dealer section of this forum.
2. Wolf-Eyes Protected Li-Ions, available from Pacific Tactical Solutions
3. Pila Protected Li-Ions, available from Jsburlys*
_Links added to sellers of bulbs/batteries later in guide_

[edit in 11/11/08]{In recent times, a "#4" above would read "LiMn chemistry cells in 16340 and 18650 sizes"}

These are the most commonly used because they are the best quality cells available, and they have protection circuits that make them safer than ordinary "bare" lithium-Ion cells. These 3 brands of protected cells are the only protected cells on the market with high current thresholds set on those protection circuits, this is done specifically with the intention of being able to light up powerful incandescent bulbs. I do not recommend unprotected cells, or any cells that claim to be protected from other sources.. Going on ebay and picking up some really cheap cells is asking for trouble. Do so at your own risk, and understand that they may not work in your configuration. There has been a flood of "off-brand" Li-Ion cells becoming available to consumers in recent times, often sold at a fraction of the price of the cells listed above. Remember, when selecting your Li-Ion cells, that these cells can be potentially dangerous, buying quality cells from a reputable dealer is important to your safety. The best VALUE is not always the lowest price.

[edit in 11/11/08]{LiMn chemistry cells are not protected, and do not really need to be as they are inherently safe.}

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Converting a Common 2 cell Tactical

A C2[G2, 6P, M2, or comparable generic alternative] will have room for 2 16340 sized cells, but if you wanted to use a 3.7V lamp, it would be rather wasteful to use a cell that only fills half the tube... The good news is, there are longer cells available.. specifically, for this application We're talking about a 17670 sized cell. AW calls it a 17670 sized cell. Pila calls it a 600S size cell, and Wolf Eyes calls it a 168B sized cell... But they are all approximately 17mm diameter (which fits snug in most lights designed for 16340s, like the C2 [and other Surefire Lights]) by 67mm long. This single cell, fits in the place that 2 CR123s (16340s) would ordinarily fit. Provides a 3.7V output with a rated capacity of 1500-1600mah depending on the cell. There are many other common cell sizes available for Li-Ion rechargable cells. 10440, 14500, 14670, 16340, 17500, 18500, 18650. Various arrangements of cell configurations are being used by many CPFers to power bulbs and LEDs...

Now.... lets say you go with the 17670 cell, and a 3.7V lamp. You can expect the light to be brighter than the stock P60, but dimmer than the optional P61. The 3.7V lamps draw more current that a P60, so what they lack in voltage, they makeup for in current to be reasonably bright. Runtime on a 17670 cell driving a 3.7V lamp is 35-50 minutes depending on what lamp you choose.

Now.. lets say you wanted a configuration that is closer in output to the P61 that is also rechargable.
You would want to step up to a 9V lamp, and run a PAIR of rechargeable RCR123 (16340) sized cells. 

These RCR123 cells are generally rated about 750mAh capacity. The only RCR123 cells available WITH protection that will light up 9V tactical lamp assemblies reliably are the AW protected R123s and I believe the BatteryStation brand RCR123s. There are probably others available but I don't think it's worth the trial and error to experiment with off-brands, these AWs are good cells and backed up by great customer relations. Keep in mind, that *most* of these Li-Ion cells are designed to be used up to a 2C current draw, no more... Which means that the cell should not be discharged in less than 30 minutes. I should point out that most capacity ratings on RCR123 size cells (from all manufactures) are pretty ambitious. In reality RCR123s tend to be ~550mAH true capacity. However, if the discharge is broken up into short bursts (as most flashlight use is) one can get by with discharge rates that are slightly higher than the cells are rated for without much problem. The trick is to pull out a different longer running light when you need to keep it on for a long time. For high output conversions with a pair of RCR123s, a lamp like the SureFire P90, Wolf-Eyes 9V D26, or LumensFactory SR-9 are often used. If you really respect your usage you can even get by with a HO-9 from LumensFactory to really match the output of a P61 with a similar 20 minute total runtime. This is just touching on some of the safety issues with Li-Ion cells.... Lets move on and learn more about that....

[edit in 11/11/08]{With AW IMR16340 LiMn cells, high current lamps like the HO-9, EO-9, and P91, can be used in 2 cell host flashlights with no danger. They can handle discharge rates up to ~4 amps safely.}


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Use/safety of Lithium-Ion and charging guidelines


Lithium-Cobalt chemistry must be respected.... There are particular rules that must be followed in order to keep the cell in safe working condition: for most cells this means the following things:
*do not charge above 4.200V
do not discharge below ~3.5V rested open-circuit (3.5V is basically dead on a li-ion cell)
do not discharge faster than 2C (some cells as low as 1C), which means in less than 30 minutes. Some cells out there are rated for no faster than a 1 hour discharge rate.
do not charge faster than 1C* (in 1 hour). 

[edit in 11/11/08] {LiMn chemistry cells should be kept in that same ~3.5-4.20V operating range, they can tolerate slightly deeper discharges without much trouble, like down to around 3.0V open circuit. The 1C charge and 2C discharge rules do not apply to LiMn cells, most are rated for ~5-15C maximum discharge rates, and maximum charge rates of 1-2C or greater, consult the manufactures specifications for further detail as there is a wide variety of possibilities.}

Keep in mind that fully charging a Li-Ion cell correctly will always actually take longer than an hour, because charging a Li-Ion cell requires the charger to use 2 modes. First, a constant current mode (CC), will hit the cell with the voltage necessary to hold the current going into the cell steady, UNTILL the cell voltage rises to 4.20V, at which point it will HOLD 4.20V output until the output current drops substantially (ideally ~50-300mA depending on the cell size). That second phase (called constant voltage (CV)) portion of the charge will always cause the total charge time to go well over an hour. So if the maximum charge rate of the cell is listed as 1C, and the cell has a capacity of 2200mAH, you can hit it with 2.2amps for the Constant Current (first phase) of the charge, in the second phase it will ramp down as the cell absorbs more energy. Ideally speaking a 0.7C CC phase followed by CV at 4.2V is the recommended charge rate that is healthy for Li-Ion cells and results in reasonable charge times. Most chargers are set to a CC rate from the factory and are stuck using that rate (unless you have a fancy hobby-grade charger with adjustable output). So you will often be stuck with a slower than ideal charge rate for larger format cells, which is fine *for the most part*, just takes longer to charge. 

Now... Good and Bad news time: Bad News First! Allowing a Li-Ion cell to operate out of the bounds listed above, will decrease it's cycle life and increase the risk of a catastrophic failure (vent-with-flame) This is why you want to buy cells with built in protection when using Lithium Cobalt chemistry cells. The GOOD NEWS: It will leave SOME of the guesswork out of using Li-Ion cells. The protection on cells is actually set a little ways beyond these bounds I listed, Often the high and low volt cut-off are set too extreme for normal use. Do NOT rely on the protection to terminate a charge (unless a charger and cell combination is designed to do this, like the Wolf-Eyes system) or to shut-off the flashlight when it is dead. try to charge before the cells go that dead. And try to remove cells from the charger before the protection stops the charge. If you are bumping up against the protection regularly, you are wearing our your cells quickly and should ease up your methods, but the protection will reduce the risk of major problems dramatically. think of it as a "backup" for when you accidentally leave a light on, or accidentally fall asleep with cells on a cheap charger. Just don't make those things part of your Li-Ion routine. Most chargers are pretty good about charging correctly, but it would be wise to invest in a multimeter and test the voltage of the cell before it goes on the charger, and after they come off. Doesn't need to be done EVERY time, but at least once and awhile to make sure everything looks right (this way you know if cells are staying matched well or not, also it tells you about how long you have to charge it). Testing after they come off the charger lets you know if the charger is doing it's job- if you see 4.3+ V then you should monitor charging closely and pull cells for testing frequently until you have a chance to try a different charger.. For the most part, I have had good luck with the popular budget DSD charger ($7-15). Leaving cells on the charger after the light goes "green" seems to trickle the cells up beyond a safe charge level in many budget chargers (older WF-139s are notorious for this), lithium-ion cells should not be trickle-charged, it will eventually damage the cell. [edit in 04/15/07 11:40PM]Silverfox, our battery expert here at CPF has suggested(in a PM to me regarding this subject, many thanks to him!) that 4.20V is considered ideal, with a tolerance of +/-0.05V, (termination should be between 4.15 and 4.25V, but anything over 4.20V really starts to kill cycle life of the cell) 4.4V is where serious danger begins (cells tend to explode around there). The emphasis of this tight tolerance is important, lithium-ion cells must be respected. A good quality DMM, or possibly owning 2, so you can check for accuracy would be ideal. Charging to a little less than 4.20V is perfectly fine and will more than likely keep cells healthier, longer. *ANY TIME YOU CHARGE ABOVE 4.200V, YOU ARE REDUCING THE NUMBER OF HEALTHY CYCLES THE CELL WILL DELIVER. Charging to 4.10V would actually increase cycle life dramatically, at the cost of some capacity and initial brightness.* Personally, I suggest using a charger that reliably terminates cells in the 4.10-4.20V range. 

[edit in: 11/29/08]A large number of cheaper chargers available do not follow the proper CC followed by CV charge method described above. Chargers like the WF-139, use a CC only charge method, that cycles on and off every few seconds to take a cell voltage reading. During charging, this charger ramps most cells up to ~4.25-4.30V during the final few minutes of charging. I'm not a big fan of this charging method, but it seems to work reasonable well (the cell usually settles to around 4.20V after the charge is terminated). I have seen this charger bring cell voltages high enough to trip the PCB on smaller cells (the protected cell actually terminates the charge, rather than the charger)... If you are using protected cells, then this is still considered OK (sortof)..., but I would not insert a low capacity (like RCR123 size) unprotected cell into one of these chargers, it would probably ramp the cell to ~4.4V or higher before terminating. Overall, chargers that use this style of charge termination (lack of CV stage) are marginal at best. The behavior of various cheap chargers on the market varies, so getting a good charger at a budget price isn't always easy to do. I generally just point straight to the Pila IBC for a quality charger recommendation. 



> also how many cycles do you usually get on those AW cr123s before you want to chuck em ?


Here are some safety issues that should be considered. (recently brought to my attention)
CPF member Silverfox has really been enlightening us on these subjects big time, we have him to thank for doing all the grunt work learning more about batteries than most of us could possibly comprehend. He has probably forgotten more about batteries than most of us will ever learn, lol. I am really just regurgitation what he has taught me here. 

*Lithium-Ion cells become more dangerous as they age.* The potential for a rapid disassembly increases dramatically as the cell "breaks down" internally. Ideally speaking, when used correctly, a Li-Ion cell could deliver 300-1000 cycles before being considered "done." But the best way to determine when the cell should be discarded, is when the cell is only delivering 80% of it's "new" capacity. So, when you get your cells setup in a configuration, try to get a measurement of how much runtime you are getting "new" and how long they take on the charger to come back up to 4.200V. When the runtime has dropped to 80% of the original, it's time to replace cells.

If any of the following conditions are noticed, the cells are probably coming up on the end of their useful life and should be considered unsafe. Please discard them. Ideally speaking, take them to a recycling collection for li-ion cells.

1. if cells are heating up abnormally during discharge or charge. (slightly warm to the touch is normal, HOT to touch=bad)
2. if cells are taking an abnormally long time to charge, *especially* in conjunction with heating up. (like 20-30% longer than when *new*)
3. If cells are coming off charger, and loosing substantial voltage after resting for ~15-30 minutes. (like dropping from 4.19 to 3.99). If the cell holds above 4.000 after resting, then the cell is probably still above 80% of "new" capacity. This is probably the easiest way to test for cell health. Charge, test voltage, rest cell for 30 minutes, if it won't hold above 4.00V, it's done. 

At the time of writing this, None of the LiCo cells we use in these configurations are technically designed to be discharged continuously in a manner that would deplete them in less than 30 minutes. Any configuration that has an estimated runtime of LESS than 30 minutes will deplete cycle life of LiCo cells much more rapidly than ideal. The best way to overcome this seems to be to charge more frequently (shallow discharges rather than deep discharges, so as to keep the loaded voltage above 3.5V as often as possible), and to only use the light in short bursts. At the time of writing this, I'm going to interpret Silverfoxes recommendations as follows.
When using a configuration that has less than 30 minutes of total estimated runtime, use in short bursts of (ideally) 1 minute or less. Try to only use about 50% or less of the available discharge before recharging. So think of it as a "10 minute" light rather than a 20 minute light. I think these rules can be extrapolated to longer running configurations to improve cycle life as well. For example, if you have a configuration that has an estimated runtime of 30 minutes, only using about 20 minutes or less whenever possible, followed by a recharge, would greatly increase cycle life. Protected cells, unfortunately, don't really have their low-V cutoff set as high as it aught to be to really extend cycle life. Even in configurations with very long runtimes, like say, 150 minutes, leaving the last 20-30% of runtime off would be best. Running it out to 100 minutes, rather than trying to get the full 150 minutes, would increase cycle life of the cells. 

[edit in 11/11/08]{Modern LiMn chemistry cells can handle discharge rates that take place in as little as 5-10 minutes depending on the particular cell in question. If you are looking at a configuration that is borderline on LiCo cells, consider a LiMn cell configuration.}

If you took a configuration, like a pair of AW RCR123s driving an HO-9 lamp (20 minute runtime) and ran it a full 20+ minutes every run(till protection kicks in), and recharged it, cell capacity would be down to 80% in possibly as little as 10-50 cycles. If this is how you think you would use the light, it would be best to choose a lower power lamp, some larger cell configurations, or a LiMn cell configuration, to get cycle life back up in the hundreds.


here are some links that everyone interested in using Lithium cells should read: Some are for Lithium, some Lithium-Ion, but I can't stress enough that these are all *potentially* dangerous cells. The more informed users are, the better. Keep in mind that a fresh CR123 primary, or fully charged 18650 cell, has an energy density bordering on TNT. This does not automatically mean that these cells are unsafe, but if used improperly they can be. 
Please watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeWq6rWzChw

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1972035#post1972035
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=106242&highlight=explosion
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=124776&highlight=explode


Ideally speaking, even though you are using protected cells, You should mentally keep track of how much runtime you have used on the light, and watch for dimming. When the light starts to seem noticeably dimmer and orange-er in color output, you should plan on recharging as soon as possible. The cells will protect themselves from being severely over-discharged, however, cycle life is much greater when you use shallower cycles on Li-Ion. So maybe use the light a few minutes a day for various tasks and charge it up every other day. The nice thing about Li-Ion is that it does not develop memory issues, you never really need to do "forming charges" and "full discharges" and stuff like that. Might be good to give them a full charge followed by long run followed by full charge when you get them to break them in, but after that just put em on the charger when ever you want to top them off. Daily would be fine even if you use the light a little bit during the day. Li-Ion cells also have little to no self-discharge. So you can charge it up and know you could come back to that light in a month and have full juice ready to go...

Special Note for users of Wolf-Eyes M90 13V incan, M300 incan, Boxer HID and Storm Cree lights

Again, special thanks to Silverfox here for bringing this important information to my attention to include in the guide:

The chargers included and or available for "pack" charging these lights rely on a slightly less orthodox method of charge termination. The charge is basically a CC (constant current) charge that holds continuous until one of the cells trips the high voltage limit protection at about 4.3V. Since the charge over 4.200V is done at a semi-rapid rate, the cells are only in a state of overcharge temporarily, they settle to ~4.15~4.25V within a few minutes after the charge is terminated. The charging technique works reasonably well provided that the cells are DESIGNED with this in mind. Wolf-Eyes and AW protected cells are the ONLY cells available that should be used in these flashlights if you intend to use the included (or optional) pack/tailcap chargers. Wolf-Eyes PCB (protection) circuits are purposely overbuilt to reliably take on the role of charge termination when used with these chargers. AWs cells also have premium PCBs that can handle the high voltage repeatedly. Again, DO NOT use any other brands of Li-Ion cell on one of these chargers. Without a reliable termination from the cell these chargers can ramp cell voltage to over 4.5V, which is WAY BEYOND the safe zone. Li-Ion cells above 4.4V become VERY unstable. The risk of a very violent vent-with-flame would be very likely if these chargers were used with unprotected cells or poorly protected cells from other brands. 


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Storage and other worthwhile information about Li-Ion cells

Leaving a Li-Ion cell sitting in a state of full charge or near-dead will cause more rapid internal breakdown (oxidation). If you intend to store a Li-Ion cell for a long period of inactivity you can minimize the effects of aging by charging (or discharging, depending on the starting state) the cell to about 3.9V. This is a nice comfortable zone that the cell can sit in and experience very little self discharge and very low internal oxidation for long periods of time. (In theory, most modern cells could probably be stored for a few years without much trouble). Coincidentally, when you buy new cells, it would be best to check their voltage out of the package before you start using them to insure that they were delivered to you within an acceptable voltage range for stored cells. (3.75-4.00V should be reasonable). If you take delivery on cells that are below 3.70V resting it probably means that they have been stored for a long period of time. If they seem to perform up to their expected capacity and hold full charges at 4.20V then there is probably not an issue to be concerned about, but many cheap cells are often cheap because they are over-aged. Be weary of cheap cells as they are often very worn out right out of the package. A $3 cell that is already "50% aged" is not a better value than a $6 cell that comes fresh and ready to go. 

If you want to store a Li-Ion cell on a more short-term basis, like, for example, as backup cells for a power outage, you will probably want to charge to a level that gives good runtime available when the cell is needed, but storing a cell at full charge 4.20V is not going to be ideal. My personal recommendation is a happy medium. I personally charge my "extra" cells to 4.05-4.10V.

Cold temperatures can also have a negative effect on Li-Ion cells. If you plan to use your Li-Ion cells in extreme cold, charge to 4.10V rather than 4.20V, there have been some reports of increased risk of cell problems (leaking, bursting, etc) when fully charged cells are exposed to extreme cold. 

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Voltage Concepts of Tactical Lamps and Lithium cells




> if your getting 8.4Volts on a fresh charge and ur not giving the full 9V you obviouslly lose some lumens and power right ? what would you be getting with those 20mins in aprox. lumens? or would you get the full 320lumens?


Let me begin by saying- if you took a 9V tactical lamp assembly, made by Surefire, LemensFactory, anybody.... doesn't matter, and put it on a bench power supply and set it to 9V at the bulb, it would not last very long at all. Especially the high power ones like the EO-9 and P91, which would probably instaflash at 9V. The HO-9 might last a few minutes to an hour if your lucky. The lower power bulbs might last a little while, the very lower output bulbs (less than an amp) would probably work fine on 9V...

Now.. here's why. This is hard to follow because it's one of those double reverse things where it is the way it is because of the way something it is this way..bleh.. I'll try....

CR123A primary cells, when BRAND new, fresh out of the box, measure about 3.2V per cell. However. When you put a load on them, that voltage does not stay 3.2. This is the case with ALL batteries. They have an open circuit voltage, and they have a working voltage. Depending on how much you demand from the cell (in amps) will determine how much variation there is between open circuit voltage and working voltage... Please Refer to Silverfoxes charts of CR123A discharge characteristics here https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/67078
You will see that at 1 Amp, most cells almost immediately sag to 2.5V.

Now, most standard 9V lamps are from 1.1-1.3 Amp. The HO-9 is about 1.5Amp. At 1.5Amp we can expect the average CR123A cell to sag to about 2.4V within a few seconds of being fresh. 3X2.4V=7.2V
So.. when designing high power tactical lamps, they take this into consideration.. They need the lamp to be able to survive that initial high-voltage spike of the first few seconds, but they try to make the bulb in such a way that it will run strong and bright far below 9V, because in reality, the bulb will rarely if ever actually get 9V after the voltage sag of the batteries under a load.

Take a look under "lamp specifications" at this page: http://www.lumensfactory.com/specifications
 you'll see they have designed the target voltage for 9V lamp to be 7.6V. smart eh?
Also take note of the EO-9, which is a 7.2V lamp... this is because it draws 2.0amps and sags the voltage of the cells down even further. they took this into consideration when designing this lamp, by doing so, it is brighter and whiter off of the cells it was intended to be used with.

Now... Here's the deal withe Li-Ion.
Yes they do only come off the charger at 4.2V (8.4V total for a pair in series). But as you can see above, the fresh voltage of a cell says very little about the way it works under a load. GENERALLY speaking, Lithium Ion cells suffer from less voltage sag than Lithium Primaries. As a result of this, the ideal voltage range for running a 9V tactical lamp is reached without a problem. Now.... Ordinarily speaking. The ideal setup is to use a 3 cell light like the C3 or 9P or something. This way you can use larger cells. For example. A pair of 17500 size cells are a direct replacement for a set of 3 CR123s. The larger higher capacity cells will also perform as well or better than the original configuration of 3 CR123s.. When you step down a "notch" in size and try to run powerful 9V lamp assemblies off of small RCR123 cells, depending on the cell, you do loose a little bit of performance and a lot of runtime trying to get so much out of so little... but if compact size and bright are important, then we make these sacrifices. As far as real world use goes, you wouldn't be able to tell much different between a HO-9 on a pair of RCR123s to a HO-9 on 3 CR123s... in fact, it's hard to distinguish the difference between LFs HO-9 and EO-9. The human eye just isn't a very good light meter. On a pair of BIG Li-Ion cells like 17670s, the HO-9 runs at about 1.6Amp. On the small RCR123s, it runs closer to 1.5Amp.... So a bigger set of cells will run a little brighter, but you can't see much difference. For long runtime, many people are using "4 cell" sized bodies (length of 4 CR123A cells) that are bored to accept 18mm diameter cells... a pair of 18650s gives about 2200mAh capacity instead of the ~550mAh you get from a pair of RCR123s, So they can drive even more powerful lamps, or run the regular ones much longer. But at the sacrifice of space... [WOLF-EYES and PILA brand lights come from the factory with 18mm diameter cells in mind, no boring neccessary, if you are new to the world of Li-Ion, you would do yourself a great favor to start with one of these brands, being able to support the extra mm diameter cell, adds about 30-50% capacity and current capability to your configuration, you can also piece together a Surfire Style Light using many of the available Surefire heads, bezels, tailcaps, and lamps, in conjunction with Leef or FM bodies sold at Lighthound. The result is Surefire Like quality with support for 18mm cells. this is generally the most expensive, but also the most rewarding, and adaptable option available.]

It's important to note that rechargeable cells are often rated differently than primary cells. Specifically, most primary cells are rated at their "fresh" open-circuit voltage output, while most rechargeable cells are rated at their "nominal" or average output into a load. So a CR123 primary is rated 3.0V, but in reality, under a load, it is usually around 2.25V-2.75V depending on how demanding the load. A Li-Ion cell is rated 3.7V, but in reality, it actually HOLDS 3.7V or higher into most loads. [food for thought time]:The same holds true in comparing Alkaline primary cells to rechargeable NIMH cells. In reality, even thought the NIMH is only rated 1.2V, it will often hold a higher voltage through most of a discharge than it's "1.5V" Alkaline cousin. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More cell safety concepts "Cs"




> "Most of these cells are designed to be used up to a 2C current draw, no more " what do you mean by this ?


The "C" rating is the multiplier to discover the maximum safe discharge and charge characteristics.. I mentioned those characteristics above... Now I'll explain further..

It's quite simple really: easiest thing for me to do is give examples:
cell 1 example:
18500 sized Li-Ion Cell
1500mAh capacity
2C max discharge
1C max charge
take the "2" before the C for max discharge and multiply by the mAh capacity rating of the cell. 2x1500=3000mA max discharge. or 3Amps. same for charge, 1x1500=1500, this cell can be charged at 1.5Amps, no more..

cell 2 example:
26650 size Li-Poly<-
3100mAh capacity
10C max discharge
4C max charge
Take "10" X 3100 = 31,000mA max discharge... 31 Amps. wow! (some Polymer cells can do this... RC guys use stuff like this)
"4"Cx3100mAh = 12.4Amp max charge rate... This cell could be safely charged from dead to full in about 15 minutes without damage.


Ratings like this are given to all sorts of batteries... You just take the C rating and multiply by capacity to find out the maximum current allowed for that function..

There are some batteries specifically designed for the safe delivery of up to a hundred amps or more.

Unfortunately, The LiCo cells we use, aren't so advanced just yet. Most of the Li-Ion cells we are using are rated between 1.5 and 2C... 

It has been recently brought to my attention by Silverfox, that the cell manufactures, and the cell labelers, may not really be "in agreement" when rating cells. Until I can gather more information on this, consider configurations with an estimated runtime of less than 30 minutes, to be pushing cells "beyond 2C." Something that the original cell manufacture would not have recommended. So if the maximum discharge rate is 2C, it only means "capacity x 2" IF the cell holds it's rated capacity at that load. Most cells do not deliver their rated capacity into high loads, so it's important to re-calculate the maximum safe discharge rate based on the typical capacity of a cell into a particular load. See safety/use section above for further information. The cells that this issue seems to be MOST PREVALENT for are the RCR123 size cells, which seem to come with the most inflated capacity ratings. (by as much as 75% or more in some cases, which can lead people to believe they have a much higher safe discharge rate then they do in reality) Most larger format cells sold by AW/WE/Pila are very close to their rated capacity and can be used pretty close to a discharge rate that is double the rated capacity. (A 1.5 or 1.6AH 17670 should handle a ~3 amp load pretty safely).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The "Guilt Free" Lumens concept

A long time ago(before my time even), a very valued member here at CPF, Paul_In_Maryland, coined the phrase "guilt-free lumens." Here's what he was talking about.




> went through 4 surefire 123s today playing with it, and have decided ..time for rechargeable cells!.


The whole reason so many of us are going rechargable is to be able to just play :rock: , guilt free. Showing off a fancy light shouldn't come at the guilt of knowing that it is sucking down 2-10+ dollars an hour (depending on configuration) in primary cells. Having rechargeables in a light also lets you use it for more tasks where it is handy, but maybe not necessary, without feeling that guilt of coming that much closer to dropping in more and more cells.

Rechargeable Lithium Ion cells will often deliver 300-1000 cycles depending on how they are used. at a cost of about $6-25 per cell, all it takes is about 6-25 cycles for the cells to have paid for themselves when compared to lithium photo batteries. Since li-ion cells can be "topped up" at any time, we can, guilt free, always have "fresh" cells in the flashlight. Never to throw out a partially depleted cell again because we want to go back to "full brightness." Keep this in mind when choosing cells remember that even if you buy the MOST EXPENSIVE Li-Ion cells they will still be saving you money in the long run. So getting good quality cells shouldn't be looked at as "too expensive" when in reality, it's still cheaper than running primaries. 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lumens, Watts, FUN



> would you get the full 320 lumens[using 2x lithium ion to drive a 9V bulb]???.


All I can say here is.. try not to get too hung up on lumens.. (I do all the time, but I shouldn't)... For starters, there is such a massive difference in the way different manufactures measure and rate lumens, that you cannot compare the numbers, you have to know the lamps first hand, or have a really good idea of how they were rated to get the number..

The best way to compare tactical incandescent lights... is to compare power consumption. Keep in mind that different configurations may have different efficiencies, so this isn't an exactly perfect comparison, but it's worth consideration for a "rule of thumb" comparison. 
Your P60 is a ~5V lamp that draws ~1.2Amp. it's about 6 Watts of light. The HO-9 is ~7.2V on fresh RCR123s at about 1.55Amp, or about 11Watts...it's about twice as bright. By comparison, a P61 is about 4.5V in operation by about 2.5Amps, which is also about 11W... notice how the P61 is rated 120 lumen by Surefire, The HO-9 is rated 320 lumens by LF... and believe it or not... both companies have a legitimate number, because they measure differently. Surefire is talking about torch lumens at some point during the discharge (like with half used batteries)... LF is talking about bulb lumens on ~fresh cells. I think Surefire also derates even farther than that... It's nuts how underrated some of their lamps are. 

Keep in mind that the eyes are not a very good judge of lumens, and we can not very accurately distinguish a difference unless the difference is about 30% or more. So often times, a "step down" in brightness is just as useful, while provided longer runtime and a better overall utility value of the flashlight. Also keep in mind, that eyes adjust for light intensity, so in a totally dark environment, like out in the woods away from a city, a few lumens goes a long way. Competing with other sources of light to bring the light on a subject "up to" the level of it's surroundings is a situation that often demands more lumens. There is often a misunderstanding that you need more light the darker it is, this couldn't be farther from the truth. In the woods with no ambient light, 100-200 lumens is awesome. In town, lighting up an address at 75ft can take 400-1000 lumens before it is easily visible when eyes are adjusted for all the ambient light. 

When you desire an "upgrade" in brightness, choose a configuration that is at LEAST double the wattage you are currently running to be impressed. Like going from a P90 to a P91.


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"3.0V" lithium Ion rechargeable cells


Very often, someone asks a question about using a "special" type of Li-Ion rechargeable battery that is supposedly 3.0V. They usually want to use a pair of these to run their 6V lamps. This is my response to anyone considering this setup...


either:
1. The cells will have protection circuits and won't power up the P60.
2. The cells won't have large enough voltage regulators to handle the current and the will go bad after a few cycles.
3. The P60 will burn out, instantly, or after a few cycles because the Li-Ion 3.0V does not sag under a load as much as the primary cells the lamp was designed for do.
4. The cells will not live up to their capacity rating at the level of power you demand from them, giving poor runtime (10-20 minutes)
5. The voltage regulator in the cell will overheat, in conjunction with the heat from the lamp, and the cell, you will be at high risk of vent-with-flame.
*6. You wish you had just started with the 9V configuration to begin with.*

choose one of the following configurations:
1. a 3.7V bulb powered by 1 Lithium-Ion Cell.
2. a 9V bulb powered by 2 Lithium-Ion Cells.
3. a 13V bulb powered by 3 Lithium-Ion Cells.

This response is in reference to 3.7V Lithium Cobalt Oxide cells that have voltage regulators built in to step down the voltage. 

There are some new chemistries of Lithium rechargeables coming out, for example, LifeP04 chemistry. This guide does not cover the uses of these cells as they are very new, time will tell what configurations these cells are good for. 

I would like to make note, that it is sometimes becoming hard to distinguish what cells really are "under the hood." Many LiFeP04 cells are simply sold as "3.0V Li-Ion cells" which can make it difficult to know what they are. Different types of "3.0V" cells have different charging requirements, anywhere from 3.6V, 3.8V, 4.4V, and 4.5V, and chargers are often very misleading on which type of 3.0V cell they are intended to charge. If you do have a special application for a 3.0V cell, please be absolutely certain you are getting the proper charger, check with the distributor of the cells, they usually sell "bungles" that include the correct charger for the cell being sold. At this time, I recommend LiFeP04 "3.0V" cells over the previous generation 3.7V cells with regulators in them. The new chemistry is very safe. They don't have as much total capacity, but at least you don't have to worry about them misbehaving. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why doesn't my flashlight work?

There are an enormous number of threads started like this:


> I bought rechargeable protected cells from "X seller" and it isn't working???


5 times out of 10, the protection circuit in the cell, is shutting down the cell before the lamp can come to life. This has been a problem for Li-Ion users since the beginning, but people ignore the suggestions, save a few dollars ordering cheap cells from some other place, and then find out that their cells are useless to them... Keep in mind that MOST protected Li-Ion cells were never designed with the characteristics of an incandescent bulb in mind, so they will not deliver the startup current that the bulb demands. Bulbs draw 3-5+ times their steady state power for the first few milliseconds. A cold filament has much less resistance than a hot one. If that power drain trips the protection in the cell, the light won't turn on.. In some cases, you can "tap" the switch a few times, to bring the filament up to temperature, but ideally speaking, having cells designed with incandescent lamps in mind is best. Please stick to AWs protected, Wolf-Eyes, or Pila cells. There have been some recent tests showing that Pila cells are slightly better performing than the others, but they are also quite expensive, so choose your cells wisely. At the time of writing this, AW is the only seller of a RCR123 sized cell WITH a protection circuit that will reliably and safely light up lamps up to 1.5Amp without the need for "double tapping" or any other issues.

4 times out of 10, the flashlight is not working because there is a break in electrical contact somewhere in the path. Keep in mind that lithium-ion cells in various configurations may be +/- a few mm from original CR123 configuration. Many lithium-ion cells do not have the button contacts on the positive ends the way ordinary primary cells do. The positive end is often recessed about 0.5mm from the shrink-wrapping. The most common solution to making contact between cells is the use of small neodymium "rare-earth" magnets between the cells. Many users advise against using these magnets because there is a risk of the magnet sliding to the edge of the body and shorting out a cell. It has been my experience, that if there is a lip on the cell preventing contact to the next cell, that lip will usually prevent the shifting of the magnet. The use of protected cells also reduces the risk in using magnets because 99% of the time you short out a protected cell, it will shut down within a millisecond, preventing damage to the cell. If you drop your flashlight, and you are using magnets to make contact, I recommend removing the cells, and checking for magnet placement as soon as possible to prevent any complications. Other connection issues can often be solved by stretching a spring, or cleaning up contact points. (sanding, pro-golding, etc). 

AW often sends magnets when you buy batteries and chargers from him that may need them. Most Radio Shack stores also carry packs of 2 under the part number 64-1895. These are perfect size... However, the RadioShack variety does not have a nickel plating like most others, so they are more prone to shatter under stress, so be careful when handling them.

1 out of 10 times, the bulb or switch is burnt out and the user is unaware. You can use a DMM set to ohms, (or continuity check) to test bulbs and switches. A reading indicating "open circuit" or very high resistance (several thousand ohms or higher) will almost always mean a burnt out bulb or busted switch.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Avoid Unprotected LiCo cells

We will always have people using unprotected LiCo cells for various reasons. These cells are often much cheaper. They do work, provided the user is willing to monitor the condition of the cells, and be very careful not to over-discharge the cells. Please avoid unprotected cells unless you know what you are doing. I'm not going to discuss setups involving unprotected cells in this guide. If it won't work with a protected cell, it's probably a dangerous configuration that should be avoided. 

If you are going to build up a configuration that uses unprotected cells, please choose a quality brand cell to minimize risk. Off-brand cells may not be very well matched capacity wise from cell to cell which could lead to unforeseen problems. some quality unprotected cells are LG, Sony, and Panasonic. 

[edit in 11/11/08]{LiMn chemistry cells are not available with protection circuits and do not need protection circuits, ignore this warning if you are using LiMn chemistry cells}

The use of magnets to make contact between unprotected cells (regardless of chemistry) is very risky as the magnet can shift and make contact with the body of the flashlight and short out the cell.

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Cell sizes

So what's with all the numbers? Lets decrypt the code

Here's some references to cell sizes and their names, Pila and Wolf-eyes make 4 cell sizes... they are roughly the same as the "industry" sizes by the following chart. 
AW follows the "normal" cell naming structure described below:

mm diameter x mm length, the 0 on the end stands for cylindrical.
a 21370 cell would be 21mm diameter, 37mm long, cylindrical.

AW...WE...PILA
17500/150B/300S=1.5x length of a CR123 and slightly thicker, fits most SF bodies. capacity ~1000-1100mAh
18500/150A/300P=1.5x length of a CR123 and quite a bit thicker, fits WE, Pila, Leef bodies, and some other chinese lights. capacity ~1400-1500mAh
17670/168B/600S= 2x length of a CR123 and slightly thicker, fits most SF bodies. capacity ~1500-1600mAh
18650/168A/600P=2x length of a CR123 and quite a bit thicker, fits WE, Pila, Leef bodies, and some other chinese lights. capacity ~1800-2600mAh

the 123 reference:
16340=16320=16330=CR123A=R123=RCR123A. we have lots of ways we "short-hand" these common cells, often just called "123" in reference to this size cell.
Primary CR123As: 3.0V 1300mAh
Li-Ion RCR123As: 3.7V ~500-600mAh

more size references
15270=CR2 lithium photo battery size
14670=4/3AA (often used in some SF bodies that are so narrow, that a 17670 will not fit, also used in mag-light mods a lot)
14500= same size as a AA cell
14250= same diameter, half the length of an AA cell
10440= AAA cell size

There are a lot more cells out there, this is just some of the stuff we see around here pretty commonly.

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Compatibility

Now we know how big the cells are, where do I stuff em?

If a CR123A, is 16mm x 34mm, and we have a flashlight that holds 2 cells, then we have about ~67mm of length to work with. If this is a Surefire, then we probably have room for a 17mm diameter cell, if it's a Wolf-Eyes, then we have room for a 18mm diameter cell. We can use either a 17670, or an 18650 size cell, or 2 RCR123 size cells, we can use 3.7V, or 9V lamps.

If we buy a flashlight that holds 3 of these. Then we have about ~100mm of length to work with. So a PAIR of 17500, or 18500 cells, would fit great. This will drive 9V lamps. There are a few configurations that would allow the use of 3 RCR123 cells driving a ~13V lamp in this size body as well.

If our flashlight holds 4 of these cells, then we have more like ~130mm of length to work with. So we are going to use a PAIR of 17670 or 18650 size cells to drive a 9V lamp.

There are some custom configurations made possible through the use of Wolf-Eyes extenders/bodies, Leef bodies, and other modifications, that allow the use of 3 50mm long cells, or 3 ~65mm long cells, to drive 13V "turbo" lamps.

_I have added a list of well known configurations that use D26 type lamps and many other lamps in the next post of this guides thread._

There are many other brands of tactical lights that use similar configurations of photo batteries, and lamps. Ultrafire and Superfire tactical lights, G&P tactical lights, PILA tactical lights. There are also some "no-name" oddballs that can be had for very cheap through sources like http://www.dealextreme.com that support the common 26mm lamp and photo batteries. To maximize your success rate on li-ion conversions, I suggest sticking to higher quality stuff that has good dealer/manufacture support. Wolf-Eyes and Pila are a great place to start if you want to buy a purpose designed Li-Ion powered incandescent flashlight. 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINKS

I decided to add a section with links to lamps and cells:

AW cells: 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/140362
http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=167
(the ones with black shrink-wrapping and silver labels are the ones you want.

Wolf-Eyes cells and lamps:
http://www.pts-flashlights.com/category.aspx?uid=1

Wolf-Eyes and LumensFactory Dealer in Australia:
http://wolfeyes.com.au/

Pila Cells and flashlights:
http://www.jsburlysflashlights.com/...0.59.193.251&act=&aff=&pg=cat&ref=pila_lights

G&P lamps:
http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=172
http://www.dealextreme.com/products.dx/category.101
http://www.qualitychinagoods.com/flashlights-bulb-c-76_79.html
http://kaidomain.com/WEBUI/SubCategory.aspx?TranID=8178
also check dealer section of CPF and MANY G&P resellers on ebay.

Lumens Factory Lamps:
http://www.lumensfactory.com/
http://www.pts-flashlights.com/category.aspx?uid=76

Surefire lamps and flashlights:
http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/pgrfnbr/16/sesent/00
many other sources, check dealer section https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/56067

Keep in mind there are more sources for many of these products, but this is where many of us are getting this stuff.


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credits, thank-yous, misc

Most of this is copy/pasted from my responses in other threads, I am adding and re-arranging and organizing and elaborating on particular areas as I edit.

Special thanks to Paul_In_Maryland for teaching me when I came to CPF (and many others). And to those who asked all the great questions to make this possible.. Also, Thank you members Silverfox and Newbie and others who are continually increasing safety awareness of Lithium-chemistry cells here at CPF. Your tests and expertise are invaluable.

I will continue to update and improve and expand this guide for as long as I can edit the thread. It's kinda still in rough-draft stages. 

ENJOY! CHEERS!


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*

SAFE Configuration Compatibility chart:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

compatibility confirmation:
+++ 95-100% usually a confirmed configuration
++ 80-95% confidence, unconfirmed till further notice (probably works)
+ 50-80% confidence, unconfirmed till further notice (I'm not sure)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In time, I'm going to try to include every common lamp, Li-Ion battery, and body configuration commonly available to CPFers. Here's a start to the chart... If you know of a configuration that is not listed here that is safe and is primarily "plug-n-play" please let me know and I'll add it to the chart. I'll list approximated wattage, torch lumens, and runtime. 

I'm including all configurations that push cells up to around 2C, some are considered borderline, anything with an estimated 20 minute runtime is borderline safe, select a longer running setup of you want to maximize safety. Anything with an estimated 30 minute or greater runtime is a good versatile configuration that can sustain many cycles. Anything listed as having a "20" minute runtime, should be used with more attention to detail. Cells will wear out quickly in these configurations and must be monitored appropriately. Read and re-read safety information about these cells to use these configuration, be prepared to replace cells in as little as 25 cycles depending on the depth of the cycles and the quality of the cells. Some cells seem to tolerate borderline drain rates better than others, but it is the end-users responsibility to monitor the cells and know when to stop using them. 
*
[UPDATE 7-23-07] I'm working on updating the charts, including new products and changing (for the 3rd time) the way I display comparative lumen and runtime values. As I convert over to the "new" system you'll see 2 lumen values listed as a sort of "range" over "time." This range represents the typical starting and near-end torch lumen values for different configurations. I have done this in an effort to increase the accuracy of what is being represented. So you can easily see how a different size cell impacts both runtime and brightness THROUGH the run. These lumen values are based on typical average cells that are relatively new, and a flashlight that is maintained properly (clean contacts, de-ox, pro-gold, etc). This is by far the most accurate representation and comparison of these lamps to date. While every value in the chart has been calculated, keep in mind that I literally had to make logical educated guesses on the values of some lamps, to have a starting point to apply the computations to. So not everything in this chart is 100% accurate, it's still just a ballpark reference. So leave room for some variation. +/-10% at least.*


D26 configurations:

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Cell Configuration: 1xIMR16340

Bulb Options:
LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 106 - 69 lumen in 49 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minutes 
WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 114 - 69 lumen in 42 minutes
LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 122 - 70 lumen in 37 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minut

Body options:
SureFire 3P
FiveMega 1x16340 body w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Ultra/Super/Trust/Solar/Force/Fire 3P clones. (model number varies, good luck)

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Cell Configuration: 1x17500

Bulb options:
LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 103 - 62 lumen in 34 minutes.
G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 111 - 62 lumen in 27 minutes.
WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 110 - 63 lumen in 28 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 8W, 111 - 62 lumen in 27 minutes

Body options:
Leefbody 1x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel +++

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Cell Configuration: 1x18500

Bulb options:
LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 106 - 68 lumen in 44 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 116 - 70 lumen in 36 minutes 
WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 112 - 67 lumen in 38 minutes
LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 120 - 67 lumen in 34 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 116 - 70 lumen in 36 minutes

Body options:
Leefbody 1x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel +++

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Cell configuration: 1x17670

Bulb Options:
LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 106 - 69 lumen in 49 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minutes 
WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 114 - 69 lumen in 42 minutes
LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 122 - 70 lumen in 37 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minutes

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Surefire G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2. +++
Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo). +++
DX "JALL" ++
Ultrafire/Superfire 2 cell: WF501B, WF502B, ++(some rare UF heads don't fit LF lamps)
Cabellas XPG 6V 2 cell +++
G&P 6P, T-6 +++
Brinkman Maxfire LX +++ (requires removal of built in reflector, lamps don't seat perfectly centered)
Pila GL2 ++
Huntlight FT-01 +
Pelican M6 new version only +

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Cell configuration: 1x18650

Bulb Options:
LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 107 - 71 lumen in 68 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 121 - 80 lumen in 55 minutes 
WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 116 - 77 lumen in 58 minutes
LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 129 - 85 lumen in 52 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 121 - 80 lumen in 55 minutes

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo). +++
DX "JALL" ++
Pila GL2 ++
Huntlight FT-01 +

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2xRCR123

Bulb Options:
LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 98 - 56 lumen in 38 minutes
LF D26 SR-9: 9W, 126 - 74 lumen in 25 minutes
LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 160 - 88 lumen in 20 minutes
SF P90: 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes
G&P G90: 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 10.5W, 136 - 80 lumen in 23 minutes
Pathfinder P90: 10W, 129 - 75 lumen in 23 minutes
WE D26 9V: 10W, 136 - 80 lumen in 23 minutes
Pila GL3 LA: 10W, 136 - 80 lumen in 23 minutes

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Surefire G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2. +++
Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo). +++
DX "JALL" ++
Ultrafire/Superfire 2 cell: WF501B, WF502B, ++(some rare UF heads don't fit LF lamps)
Cabellas XPG 6V 2 cell +++
G&P 6P, T-6 +++
Brinkman Maxfire LX +++ (requires removal of built in reflector, lamps don't seat perfectly centered)
Pila GL2 ++
Huntlight FT-01 +
Pelican M6 new version only +

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Cell configuration: 2xIMR16340

(these are rougher estimates than most of the others in the chart, but should be close enough to accurate for comparisons sake)

Bulb Options:
LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 110 - 70 lumen in 37 minutes
LF D26 SR-9: 9W, 150 - 85 lumen in 25 minutes
LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 195 - 100 lumen in 19 minutes
LF D26 EO-9: 15W, 240 - 110 lumen in 15 minutes
SF P90: 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
SF P91: 20W, 300 - 125 lumen in 10 minutes
G&P G90: 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 10.5W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
Pathfinder P90: 10W, 155 - 90 lumen in 23 minutes
WE D26 9V: 10W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
Pila GL3 LA: 10W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
FM1794 in FM bi-pin D26: 22+W, 350 - 150 lumen in 8 minutes

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Surefire G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2. +++
Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo). +++
DX "JALL" ++
Ultrafire/Superfire 2 cell: WF501B, WF502B, ++(some rare UF heads don't fit LF lamps)
Cabellas XPG 6V 2 cell +++
G&P 6P, T-6 +++
Brinkman Maxfire LX +++ (requires removal of built in reflector, lamps don't seat perfectly centered)
Pila GL2 ++
Huntlight FT-01 +
Pelican M6 new version only +

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17500

Bulb Options:
LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 115 - 75 lumen in 73 minutes
LF D26 SR-9: 9W, 160 - 100 lumen in 51 minutes
LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 215 - 132 lumen in 40 minutes
LF D26 EO-9: 15W, 268 - 162 lumen in 30 minutes
SF P90: 9W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
G&P G90: 9W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 9W, 153 - 95 lumen in 52 minutes (guess)
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 10.5W, 175 - 108 lumen in 46 minutes (guess)
Pathfinder P90: 10W, 165 - 102 lumen in 47 minutes
WE D26 9V: 10W, 175 - 108 lumen in 46 minutes
Pila GL3 LA: 10W, 175 - 108 lumen in 46 minutes

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Surefire [G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2] +1 cell extender ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
Surefire G3, 9P, C3, +++
Wolf-Eyes 9 series Raider (non-turbo) +++
Ultrafire/Superfire 3 cell: WF501C, WF502C, ++(some rare UF heads don't fit LF lamps)
Cabellas XPG 9V 3 cell +++
G&P 9P, T-9 +++
Pila GL3 ++

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x18500

Bulb Options:
LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 116 - 76 lumen in 94 minutes
LF D26 SR-9: 10W, 162 - 105 lumen in 65 minutes
LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 217 - 139 lumen in 51 minutes
LF D26 EO-9: 15.5W, 272 - 171 lumen in 39 minutes
SF P90: 9.5W, 153 - 98 lumen in 67 minutes
SF P91: 20W, 320 - 170 lumen in 28 minutes
G&P G90: 9.5W, 153 - 98 lumen in 67 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 10W, 157 - 100 lumen in 67 minutes (guess)
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 11W, 177 - 114 lumen in 59 minutes (guess)
Pathfinder P90: 10.5W, 167 - 107 lumen in 61 minutes
WE D26 9V: 10.5W, 177 - 114 lumen in 59 minutes
Pila GL3 LA: 10.5W, 177 - 114 lumen in 59 minutes
FM1794

Body Options:
Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Wolf-Eyes 9 series Raider (non-turbo) +++
Pila GL3 ++

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17670

Bulb Options:
LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 116 - 76 lumen in 105 minutes
LF D26 SR-9: 10W, 163 - 106 lumen in 73 minutes
LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 218 - 140 lumen in 57 minutes
LF D26 EO-9: 15.5W, 273 - 172 lumen in 44 minutes
SF P90: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes
SF P91: 20W, 330 - 175 lumen in 31 minutes
G&P G90: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 10W, 158 - 102 lumen in 74 minutes (guess)
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 11W, 179 - 115 lumen in 66 minutes (guess)
Pathfinder P90: 10.5W, 167 - 107 lumen in 67 minutes
WE D26 9V: 10.5W, 179 - 115 lumen in 66 minutes
Pila GL3 LA: 10.5W, 179 - 115 lumen in 66 minutes
FM1794

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Surefire [G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2] +TWO 1 cell extenders ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
Surefire [G3, 9P, C3] +ONE 1 cell extender ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo) +ONE LRB-168 extender, + copper wire mod. ++ (requires modification)
Ultrafire/Superfire 4 cell: WF501D, WF502D, ++(some rare UF heads don't fit LF lamps)
Cabellas XPG 12V 4 cell +++
G&P 12P, T-12 +++

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x18650

Bulb Options:
LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 117 - 77 lumen in 147 minutes
LF D26 SR-9: 10W, 163 - 110 lumen in 102 minutes
LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 219 - 145 lumen in 80 minutes
LF D26 EO-9: 15.5W, 280 - 188 lumen in 60 minutes
SF P90: 9.5W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
SF P91: 20W, 360 - 215 lumen in 43 minutes
G&P G90: 9.5W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 10W, 158 - 105 lumen in 104 minutes (guess)
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 11W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes (guess)
Pathfinder P90: 10.5W, 167 - 112 lumen in 94 minutes
WE D26 9V: 10.5W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes
Pila GL3 LA: 10.5W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes
FM1794

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo) +ONE LRB-168 extender, + copper wire mod. ++(requires modification)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2xIMR18650

Bulb Options:
LF D26 ES-9: 7W
LF D26 SR-9: 10W
LF D26 HO-9: 12W
LF D26 EO-9: 15.5W
SF P90: 9.5W
G&P G90:
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 10W
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 11W
Pathfinder P90: 10.5W, 167 - 112 lumen in 94 minutes
WE D26 9V: 10.5W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes
Pila GL3 LA: 10.5W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes

(P91 and FM1794 should be avoided, will reduce bulb life substantially, very likely to just instaflash the bulb)

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo) +ONE LRB-168 extender, + copper wire mod. ++(requires modification)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 3x RCR123

Bulb Options:
G&P G120: 15W, 275 - 145 lumen in 20 minutes (HIGH risk of instaflashing bulb, hard on cells)

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Surefire [G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2] +1 cell extender +++
Surefire G3, 9P, C3, +++
Wolf-Eyes 9 series Raider (non-turbo) +++
Ultrafire/Superfire 3 cell: WF501C, WF502C, +++
Cabellas XPG 9V 3 cell +++
G&P 9P, T-9 +++
Pila GL3 ++

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cell configuration: 4xRCR123

Bulb Options:
G&P G140: 20W, 320 - 187 lumen in 22 minutes (guess) (new found configuration, long-term reliability unknown, seems stable, hard on cells)

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Surefire [G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2] +TWO 1 cell extenders +++
Surefire [G3, 9P, C3] +ONE 1 cell extender +++
Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo) +ONE LRB-168 extender, + copper wire mod. ++
Ultrafire/Superfire 4 cell: WF501D, WF502D, +++
Cabellas XPG 12V 4 cell +++
G&P 12P, T-12 +++

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Cell configuration: 4x17500

Bulb Options:
G&P G140: 20W, 380 - 220 lumen in 44 minutes (guess) (new found configuration, long-term reliability unknown, never been tried as far as I know)

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 3x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Surefire [G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2] +FOUR 1 cell extenders +++
Surefire [G3, 9P, C3] +THREE 1 cell extender +++
Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo) +TWO LRB-168 extender, + copper wire mods. ++
Cabellas XPG 12V 4 cell +TWO SF compatible 1 cell extenders +++
G&P 12P, T-12 +TWO SF compatible 1 cell extenders +++

I would guess that this lamp may be able to run on 4 18500s as well, or 4 17670s or 18650s, provided someone were willing to stack enough extenders, I'm not going to bother listing this configurations, as even this one listed above has not been tried (to my knowledge) by anybody, and becomes about as LONG as a light ever should.... 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well.... That's all the D26 configurations I can think of at the moment... At the time of writing this, I'm NOT going to say that all of these configurations work...

Wolf-Eyes and Pila Body lights use a slightly different lamp assembly style, various modifications are sometimes necessary 
to make proper contact with non-Pila/WE lamps. 

For a list of even more D26 compatible hosts, check here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/186661

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Turbo Head configurations

Let me start by saying, that I am not nearly as familiar with turbo configurations. There are so many different types of turbo lamps and configurations available that this is practically mind boggling. The main problem, is that there are many different turbo lamp types, and there is very limited compatibility from one brand to the next. Unlike the D26 configurations, which are all based around the same lamp assembly. I'm going to need help revising this. Consider this chart "ALPHA" stage. I think most of this works, but I would want to have a few of our more experienced members in this area review this section before saying that this is "for sure." 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cell configuration: 1x17670

Bulb Options:
WE D36 3.7V: 8W, 116 - 71 lumen in 42 minutes

Body Options:
Wolf-Eyes 6 series explorer (with turbohead) +++

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 1x18650

Bulb Options:
WE D36 3.7V: 8W, 119 - 80 lumen in 58 minutes

Body Options:
Wolf-Eyes 6 series explorer (with turbohead) +++

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2xRCR123

Bulb Options:
SF MN15: 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes
SF N2: 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes

Body Options:
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++
Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
G&P T6 +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
(any other 2 cell SF compatible body with SF KT1/2/4 installed)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2xRCR123

Bulb Options:
WE D36 9.0V: 10W, 136 - 80 lumen in 23 minutes

Body Options:
Wolf-Eyes 6 series explorer (with turbohead) ++

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2xRCR123

Bulb Options:
XPG 9V extreme performance head: 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes
G&P X9 head: 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes

Body Options:
Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell ++
G&P T6 ++
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, G2 +
FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap +

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell Configuration: 2xIMR16340

Bulb Options:
SF MN15: 10W
SF MN16
SF N2: 10W
SF MN20: 20W
LF HO-M3T: 16W
LF EO-M3T: 18.5W
LF IMR-M3T:
GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
Osram 64250 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
WA1111 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

(theoretically, these cells could also be used to push the MN21, 5761, 64275 and other 4-5+ amp bulbs, but this would be over AWs maximum recommended current limit. I would suggest only using such configurations in short bursts, they would only run for a few minutes anyways. Might be fun just to show off with). 

Body Options:
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++
Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
G&P T6 +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
(any other 2 cell SF compatible body with SF KT1/2/4 installed)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17500

Bulb Options:
SF MN15: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
SF N2: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
LF HO-M3T: 15.5W, 268 - 162 lumen in 30 minutes
GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

Body Options:
SF M3T +++
SF M3 +KT4 ++
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF 9P, C3, (G3?), +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++
G&P T9 +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
G&P T6 +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17500

Bulb Options:
WE D36 9.0V: 10.5W, 175 - 108 lumen in 46 minutes

Body Options:
Wolf-Eyes 9 series raider (with turbohead [option D]) +++

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17500

Bulb Options:
XPG 9V extreme performance head: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
G&P X9 head: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes

Body Options:
Cabelas XPG 9V 3 cell ++
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, G2, + 1 cell extender +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF 9P, C3, G3, +
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap. +
G&P T9 +
G&P X9 ++

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x18500

Bulb Options:
WE D36 9.0V: 10.5W, 177 - 114 lumen in 59 minutes

Body Options:
Wolf-Eyes 9 series raider (with turbohead [option D]) +++

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x18500

Bulb Options:
SF MN15: 9.5W, 153 - 98 lumen in 67 minutes
SF N2: 9.5W, 153 - 98 lumen in 67 minutes
SF MN16: 20W, 320 - 170 lumen in 28 minutes
SF MN20: 19W, 270 - 157 lumen in 31 minutes
LF HO-M3T: 15.5W, 272 - 171 lumen in 39 minutes
LF EO-M3T: 18.5W, 306 - 172 lumen in 33 minutes
GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
WA1111 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
Osram 64250 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17670

Bulb Options:
SF MN15: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes
SF N2: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes
SF MN16: 20W, 330 - 175 lumen in 31 minutes
SF MN20: 19W, 272 - 160 lumen in 34 minutes
LF HO-M3T: 15.5W, 273 - 172 lumen in 44 minutes
LF EO-M3T: 18.5W, 308 - 175 lumen in 35 minutes
GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
WA1111 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
Osram 64250 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

SF M3T +1 cell extender ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF M3 + 1 cell extender, +KT4 ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF M4
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +TWO 1 cell extenders, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF 9P, C3, (G3?), + 1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
Cabelas XPG 12V 4 cell +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
G&P T12 4 cell +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
Cabelas XPG 9V 3 cell + 1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
G&P T9 3 cell + 1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +TWO 1 cell extenders, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
G&P T6 2 cell +TWO 1 cell extenders, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17670

Bulb Options:
XPG 9V extreme performance head: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes
G&P X9 head: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes

Body Options:
Cabelas XPG 12V 4 cell ++
G&P T12 4 cell ++
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, G2, + 2 1 cell extenders +
SF 9P, C3, G3, + 1 cell extender +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap. +

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17670

Bulb Options:
LF SR-9L: 13W, 238 - 151 lumen in 57 minutes
LF HO-9L: 16W, 280 - 179 lumen in 44 minutes
LF EO-9L: 18.5W, 322 - 201 lumen in 36 minutes
WE D36 9V: 11W, 179 - 113 lumen in 66 minutes

Body Options:
Wolf-Eyes M90 Rattlesnake +++
Pila GL4 ++

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x18650

Bulb Options:
LF SR-9L: 13W, 238 - 159 lumen in 80 minutes
LF HO-9L: 16W, 280 - 188 lumen in 60 minutes
LF EO-9L: 18.5W, 322 - 212 lumen in 49 minutes
WE D36 9V: 11W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes

Body Options:
Wolf-Eyes M90 Rattlesnake +++
Pila GL4 ++

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x18650

Bulb Options:
SF MN15: 10W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
SF N2: 10W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
SF MN16: 20.5W, 360 - 215 lumen in 43 minutes
SF MN20: 20W, 300 - 186 lumen in 47 minutes
SF MN21: 37W, 600 - 375 lumen in 15-20 minutes (unprotected cells required, dangerous configuration)
LF HO-M3T: 16W, 280 - 188 lumen in 60 minutes
LF EO-M3T: 18.5W, 322 - 212 lumen in 49 minutes
GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
WA1111 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
Osram 64250 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
Philips 5761 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket: (requires unprotected LiCo cells, only recommended for advanced users.)

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++
SureFire M6 w/2x18650 adapter

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2xIMR18650 (LiMn chemistry cells)

Bulb Options:
SF MN15: 10W
SF N2: 10W
SF MN20: 20W
SF MN21: 37W
LF HO-M3T: 16W
LF EO-M3T: 18.5W
LF IMR-M3T:
GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
Osram 64275 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

(MN16, WA1111, and Osram 64250 are not compatible as they will just instaflash). 

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++
SureFire M6 w/2x18650 adapter

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 3xRCR123

Bulb Options:
XPG 12V extreme performance head: 15W, 275 - 145 lumen in 20 minutes (HIGH risk of instaflashing bulb, hard on cells)
G&P X12 head: 15W, 275 - 145 lumen in 20 minutes (HIGH risk of instaflashing bulb, hard on cells)

Body Options:
Cabelas XPG 9V 3 cell ++
G&P T9 +
G&P X9 ++
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, G2, + 1 cell extender +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF 9P, C3, G3, +
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap. +

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell Configuration: 3x17500

Bulb Options:
WE D36 12V: 16.5W, 363 - 223 lumen in 44 minutes (bulb life reduced significantly, high risk instaflash)
WE D36 13V: 18W, 352 lumen - 214 lumen in 40 minutes
LF HO-13: 17W, 323 - 197 lumen in 44 minutes

Body Options:
Wolf-Eyes M90 series RattleSnake +LRB150 extender +++

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell Configuration: 3x18500

Bulb Options:
WE D36 12V: 16.5W, 365 - 235 lumen in 57 minutes (bulb life reduced significantly, high risk instaflash)
WE D36 13V: 18W, 354 lumen - 225 lumen in 52 minutes
LF HO-13: 17W, 325 - 207 lumen in 57 minutes
LF EO-13: 25.5W, 480 - 284 lumen in 36 minutes

Body Options:
Wolf-Eyes M90 series RattleSnake +LRB150 extender +++


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell Configuration: 3x17670

Bulb Options:
SF MN60: 20W, 436 - 263 lumen in 47 minutes (bulb life very short, but incredible)
SF MN61: 32W, 728 - 435 lumen in 27 minutes (bulb life very short, but incredible)
LF HO-M6R: 23W, 503 - 336 lumen in 41 minutes (best drop-in solution available for this config)
WA1331 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
WA1185 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

Body Options:

SF M3T +3 ONE cell extenders ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF M3 +3 ONE cell extenders, +KT4 ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF M4 + 2 ONE cell extenders, +++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +4 ONE cell extenders, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF 9P, C3, (G3?), + 3 ONE cell extenders, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
FiveMega or Leefbody 3x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 +(unavailable hypothetical configuration)
Leefbody 3x18650 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++
SF M6 +FiveMega 3x17670 adapter

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell Configuration: 3x18650

Bulb Options:
SF MN60: 20W, 455 - 275 lumen in 72 minutes (bulb life very short, but incredible)
SF MN61: 32W, 760 - 455 lumen in 40 minutes (bulb life very short, but incredible)
LF HO-M6R: 23W, 524 - 350 lumen in 58 minutes (best drop-in solution available for this config)
WA1331 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
WA1185 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

Body Options:
Leefbody 3x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 +(unavailable hypothetical configuration)
Leefbody 3x18650 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell Configuration: 3x18650

Bulb Options:
WE D36 13V: 18W, 354 - 237 lumen in 81 minutes
LF HO-13: 17W, 325 - 218 lumen in 89 minutes
LF EO-13: 25.5W, 525 - 350 lumen in 54 minutes

Body Options:
Wolf-Eyes M90 series RattleSnake +LRB168 extender +++

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell Configuration: 3xIMR16340

Bulb Options:
SF MN60: 20W
SF MN61: 32W
LF HO-M6R: 23W
LF IMR-M6:
WA1331 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
WA1185 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

Body Options:
SF M3T +++
SF M3 +KT4 ++
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF 9P, C3, (G3?), +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++
G&P T9 +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
G&P T6 +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 6xRCR123

Bulb Options:
MN60: 18W, 455 - 275 lumen in 41 minutes (bulb life reduced dramatically, but incredible)
LF HO-M6R: 23W, 480 - 285 lumen in 30 minutes (best drop-in solution available for this config)
WA1331 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

Body:
Surefire M6 +++
Any SF compatible 1" body configured to a 6 cell length with a KT1/2/4 using appropriate adapters and extenders. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2xRCR123

Bulb Option:
SF MN10: 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes
LF HO-M3: 160 - 88 lumen in 20 minutes

Body Option:
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), + leef C to M adapter, + M3 bezel
FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 adapted to M head (leef adapter) with M3 bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++
Any SF "C" thread compatible host, with C to M head adapter and M3 bezel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2xIMR123

Bulb Option:
SF MN10: 9.5W
SF MN11: 20W
LF HO-M3: 12W
LF EO-M3: 15.5W

Body Option:
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), + leef C to M adapter, + M3 bezel
FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 adapted to M head (leef adapter) with M3 bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++
Any SF "C" thread compatible host, with C to M head adapter and M3 bezel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17500

Bulb Option:
SF MN10: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
LF HO-M3: 12W, 238 - 145 lumen in 40 minutes
LF EO-M3: 15.5W, 268 - 162 lumen in 30 minutes

Body Option:
SF M3T body with standard M3 bezel installed +++
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +1 cell extender, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF 9P, C3, (G3?), +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel ++
G&P T9 ++leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
G&P T6 +1 cell extender, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +1 cell extender, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
Cabelas XPG 9V 3 cell +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
SureFire M3 (non-turbo) +++
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 adapted to M head with M3 bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x18500

Bulb Option:
SF MN10: 9.5W, 153 - 98 lumen in 67 minutes
SF MN11: 20W, 320 - 170 lumen in 28 minutes
LF HO-M3: 12W, 240 - 152 lumen in 51 minutes
LF EO-M3: 15.5W, 272 - 171 lumen in 39 minutes

Body Option:
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 adapted to M head with M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x17670

Bulb Option:
MN10: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes
MN11: 20W, 330 - 175 lumen in 31 minutes
LF HO-M3: 12W, 241 - 155 lumen in 57 minutes
LF EO-M3: 15.5W, 273 - 172 lumen in 44 minutes

Body Option:
SF M3T body with standard M3 bezel installed +1 cell extender, +++
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +2 ONE cell extenders, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel ++
SF 9P, C3, (G3?), +1 cell extender, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel ++
G&P T9 +1 cell extender, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
G&P T6 +2 ONE cell extenders, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +2 ONE cell extenders, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
Cabelas XPG 9V 3 cell +1 cell extender, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
SureFire M3 + 1 cell extender ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
Surefire M4 with M3 bezel installed +++
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 +1 cell extender, adapted to M head with M3 bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++
Leefbody 2x18650 M head with M3 bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x18650

Bulb Option:
SF MN10: 10W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
SF MN11: 20.5W, 360 - 215 lumen in 43 minutes
LF HO-M3: 12.5W, 241 - 169 lumen in 80 minutes
LF EO-M3: 16.5W, 280 - 188 lumen in 60 minutes

Body Option:
Leefbody 2x18650 M head with M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 C head with C-M adapter +M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2xIMR18650

Bulb Option:
SF MN10: 10W
LF HO-M3: 12.5W
LF EO-M3: 16.5W

(MN11 should be avoided, it would probably just instaflash)

Body Option:
Leefbody 2x18650 M head with M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 C head with C-M adapter +M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SureFire "E" series with LumensFactory bulbs

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 cell configuration 1xRCR123

Bulb Options:
LF HO-E1R: 3W, 39 - 23 lumen in 38 minutes
LF EO-E1R: 4.5W, 59 - 35 lumen in 23 minutes

Body:
SureFire E1 or E1E

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 cell configuration 1xIMR16340

Bulb Options:
LF HO-E1R: 3W, 42 - 25 lumen in 36 minutes
LF EO-E1R: 4.5W, 65 - 40 lumen in 23 minutes

Body:
SureFire E1 or E1E

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 cell configuration 1x17670

Bulb Options:
LF HO-E1R: 3W, 46- 30 lumen in 112 minutes
LF EO-E1R: 4.5W, 76 - 49 lumen in 69 minutes

Body:
Surefire E2, E2E, or E2O

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 cell configuration 2xRCR123

Bulb Options:
LF HO-E2R: 5W, 90 - 52 lumen in 47 minutes
LF EO-E2R: 6W, 117 - 67 lumen in 38 minutes

Body:
Surefire E2, E2E, or E2O

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other flashlights

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cell configuration: 2x17500

Bulb Option:
TL-3 bulb: 162 - 102 lumen in 49 minutes
CA-1499 bi-pin: 14W, 255 - 161 lumen in 31 minutes

Body Option:
Streamlight TL-3 +++

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2xRCR123

Bulb Option:
TL-3 Bulb: 9.5W, 130 - 77 lumen in 24 minutes

Body Option:
Streamlight TL-2 ++

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x14500

Bulb Option:
TL-3 Bulb: 9.5W, 130 - 77 lumen in 24 minutes

Body:
2AA MiniMag with Auroralite upgrade package +++

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2x14500

Bulb Options:
almost any "5 or 6 cell" PR based bulb: varies
too many bulb options to list, try some 5 and 6 cell mag xenonstar, hit up radio-shack for tons of PR based bulbs, many in the 4.8V-6V rated range will work in these applications. 

Body:
almost any 2AA flashlight that takes ordinary PR based bulbs can be converted into a true "torch" with this method. +-+++ depends.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




WHEW! that's a lot of options.... that'll keep us busy for a few minutes eh?


----------



## abinok

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*

this is one of the finest threads ive seen in a long time.
Good Job!!!


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*

Stick this stuff ASAP!!

Thanks a lot for the huge amount of work you've done here Mdocod. I wish there was something like this guide when I joined CPF...

:goodjob:


----------



## FlashKat

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*

mdocod...even though you don't think I listen to what you say, since I am the one who ran the LF EO-13 off 3 RCR123 batteries. I actually switched over to running 18500's and 18650's.:lolsign::lolsign::lolsign:
Keep up the GREAT work!!!!!!


----------



## Glen C

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*

Mdocod, congratulations on a fine body of work, great reference for any incan user.


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*

Mdocod, just one more question (you may add it to your guide):

Is it safe to run the Lumens Factory D36 E0-9L on 2X18500 li-ions? If so, what's the expected runtime? I think the D36 9L series have different specifications/requirements from the D26 9V series, but they are not mentioned in your guide.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*

Thanks for all the kind words thus far...

Outdoors Fanatic: I included a section discussing some more common turbo style bulbs, their power consumption, minimum cell size, runtime, etc... 


If there are any more bulbs I should include, please, by all means, let me know. If you see any major errors please correct me, as I slapped the chart together pretty quick. Keep in mind that my wattage/runtime ratings are educated estimates and should not be taken as gospel. Use as a ballpark guide. I usually try to low-ball runtime estimates, rounding down to the nearest 5 min increment.

[edit] full compatibility chart is up, enjoy!


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*

Silverfox contacted me by PM, I have made some changes to the section about Li-Ion safety concerns as a result of his very knowledgeable contribution. (voltage limits during charging, most specifically).


----------



## SilverFox

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*

Hello Mdocod,

Looking good!!!

Tom


----------



## zehnmm

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*

Mdocod: THANKS and WOW! Great job! 

:rock:


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*

Ok, I gave the guide a face lift today, added links, fixed links, added some formatting to make it easier to read. added more information and more sections.


----------



## Frank_Zuccarini

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*

I just want to say 'thank-you' for doing this for us. Very helpful, indeed.

Frank


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*

I've been poking at this some more...

added a more explanatory section on body>cell compatibility. Also just touched up areas to read smoother, more random info placed throughout...funfunfun

If anyone can think of ANY information you would like to see in this guide, I would really like to include it. Any suggestions about the organization, I have never been very good at organizing a large body of text into anything meaningful, so if the layout doesn't seem smooth, please help me make it better. I have a habbit of not keeping in the same "tense" when writing, sometimes talking "me" sometimes "if" sometimes "you," bleh.. The fact that a lot of this is copied from other threads makes it even harder to integrate into a meaningful lump, lol.

If there are any other brands that I should represent, please let me know. If there are any other links about Lithium safety that I haven't yet included, I'd like to include them. If there are any dealers, or manufactures that I should have represented as a part of this scene, let me know, throw me a link.

I am considering maybe a detailed section about the Wolf-Eyes lego that Paul_In_Maryland has discussed in many threads in more detail. I'd also like to cover the Leaf bodies and SF heads/tailcap lego that can be done. I know most of the compatibility there, I'll just need to take the time to write it all down and organize it... would anyone like to see that information included here? [edit in: compatibility chart is up!]

We had a nice chart on the WIKI awhile back, as far as I know it is long gone, if anyone has this, and could post it, and get it going again, that would be awesome, or if yall would like me to build and maintain something similar within this guide, I'd be happy to do that as well.


----------



## rcnuk

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*

mdocod,
Great guide! This should be a sticky!

:goodjob:


----------



## jezzyp

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*

Awesome post


----------



## ICUDoc

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*

GOOD job!
A valuable piece of work. Thanks for the effort.


----------



## cernobila

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*

mdocod,

I am now using your table as a bible of lamps for future reference.

I have a question.....can you guesstimate the wattage and run times for;

LF D26 HO-9 with 2x 18650 AW cells
LF D26 EO-9 with 2x 18650 AW cells

Thanks in advance...


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*

thanks for the flow of kind words everyone!

cernobila:
HO-9 >18650s = ~12.5W, ~75min
EO-9 >18650s = ~15.5W, ~60min

my usual disclaimer is that this is a ballpark figure.

In my experience, the EO-9 doesn't seem all that much brighter than an HO-9 in use, and an HO-9 doesn't seem all that much brighter than a G90/P90 type lamp in actual use.(even though there it is a decent step in oomf, eyes play tricks on us) anything above 10W pushing ~25 lumen/w at the bulb does a great job outdoors for most tasks.


----------



## KeeperSD

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*

mdocod

:goodjob: 

Much to learn from this thread and much to try, plenty of information, only problem is that there will no longer be as many threads on these topics for me to look through and spend endless hours reading.


----------



## cernobila

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*



mdocod said:


> thanks for the flow of kind words everyone!
> 
> cernobila:
> HO-9 >18650s = ~12.5W, ~75min
> EO-9 >18650s = ~15.5W, ~60min
> 
> my usual disclaimer is that this is a ballpark figure.
> 
> In my experience, the EO-9 doesn't seem all that much brighter than an HO-9 in use, and an HO-9 doesn't seem all that much brighter than a G90/P90 type lamp in actual use.(even though there it is a decent step in oomf, eyes play tricks on us) anything above 10W pushing ~25 lumen/w at the bulb does a great job outdoors for most tasks.



Thanks for that, much appreciated, I think I will go with the HO-9 for the extra run time when out camping......


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*

I just added a D26 compatibility chart.

Hopefully I'll have the motivation to do a turbo-head chart, with all the Leaf/SF and WE combinations available. My typing is burning out, lol..[edit in] Turbohead configuration chart added!!!! But still probably needs a lot of work. Need input, lol.


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

WOW! I made a couple comments in that other thread about this guide. Thanks again.


----------



## benighted

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Wow! Nice guide. I wish I had this to refer to when I was getting started with Li-ions. This thread should be made sticky:goodjob:


----------



## alantch

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

I'm just getting into turbo heads, incan bulbs and li-ions and find this guide the absolute best, especially on the different battery combinations, bulbs and runtimes. Fantastic writeup mdocod! This should be sticky.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

I hurt my back some terrible about 2 weeks ago, so I've continued to pick at this guide lately, adding things, changing things... I've got way too much free time, I can't lift anything, so I can't work.

As it is right now, I wouldn't consider the turbo head section really all that well and done, I need some of our experienced members in this area to give a hand here. Especially about the compatibility of some of the G&P parts with SF parts. If someone experienced with these configurations could review and pick out errors (I'm sure here are errors) or think of anything to add, I would really appreciate it.

I'm *thinking* about going through an putting a *confirmed* tag next to configurations that someone says they actually have working, or know for sure would work, and leaving other configurations "unconfirmed" or "experimental" or something, does this sound like a good idea?


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*



mdocod said:


> I'm *thinking* about going through an putting a *confirmed* tag next to configurations that someone says they actually have working, or know for sure would work, and leaving other configurations "unconfirmed" or "experimental" or something, *does this sound like a good idea?*



Absolutely! Always good to know what is confirmed vs. theoretical. Thanks again for all this.


----------



## DM51

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Mdocod, that is terrific work! It will be invaluable source material for people trying to work through the maze of sizes, specifications etc. Now we will know exactly where to tell people where to look for answers!


----------



## sween1911

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

I've got to pile on here, this thread is FANTASTIC! Thank you so much for the time and effort. I've been pondering rechargeable solutions for so long, the different combinations are mind boggling. This is an excellent resource.


----------



## defusion

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Here's another set of options:

2x17670

bodies:
surefire m3 + 1cell extender, with MN10 or MN11 (confirmed)
surefire m3t/m3 with kt4 + 1 cell extender, with MN15 or MN16
surefire m4 with MN15 or MN16

i'll leave the lumen/runtime rating to you 

2x17500 surefire m3 with MN10 is also confirmed.
MN11 needs double tap on 17500's so this shouldn't be considered safe.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

thankyou for the additional kind words sween! much apreciated!

Defusion: thankyou for the additional configurations... I have the M3 (non-turbo) config with 17500s listed already under "other flashlights" since it doesn't really fall in the D26 nor "turbo" configs.. but I totally neglected the M3+extenders and heads options... I knew I would leave some stuff out, keep em coming!!! thankyou for taking the time to read through and help out! I'll try to get them added as soon as possible. [edit in: configs added, thanks!]


----------



## pete7226

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Excellent


----------



## Pellidon

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

I have been playing with a Browning 2xAA xenon body with two 14500 cells and a Gerber lamp for the RX1050 Xenon Torch. It is a 9 volt Lithium light so the cells do it just fine. I measured about 4500 lux last night and it draws about 1.12 amps on fresh cells.


----------



## Proto-tipo

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Mdocod for President !!! :goodjob:


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Welcome to the forum Proto-tipo!


----------



## Proto-tipo

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Thanks :thumbsup:


----------



## OzzieDoc

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Great post.

Is this a safe configuration? G&P G140 (D26 14V) with 4 X RCR123. It does work without instaflashing and is at least as bright as the G&P 12V version with 3 x RCR123 which you have estimated at 280L. I have not been able to test them side by side yet (not enough RCR batteries) but have side by side tested against other combinations using primary cells. These two combinations are brighter than any other tested using Surefire/Ultrafire/G&P D26 bulbs. The nearest other configuration is the G120 (12V) with 4X CR123 primary lithiums which is noticeably brighter (subjectively)than the same 4 cells with the newer 14V bulb.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

hmm... I wasn't aware that the G140 was handling 4 RCR cells. are you talking about 3.7V cells? which brand? I don't have any specifications of the lamp... if you could take a current reading through the tailcap I could tell ya more about the safety. I'm pretty sure it is under 1.5A, should be safe.


----------



## OzzieDoc

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Yes they are the 3.6/3.7 RCRs as sold by DX etc under the HOVET name. They are nominal 800mAH. Your question forced me to look up how to measure the current draw (thanks) which is 1.27 amp. So this is under the 2C draw which I assume is safe according the information you provided earlier.

The suggestion to try 4 X RCR123 with this 14V bulb was made by several people including FiveMega in an earlier thread.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

awsom.... that sounds safe to me, and will work in a ton of 4 cell body configurations, so I'll add it to the list as soon as i have a chance! (later on today)

1 question... on 4 cells, how WHITE is it? does it appear blazing white, like whiter than the G120 on 4 CR123s by a long shot? or is it pretty comparable to other lamps?


----------



## OzzieDoc

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

It (the G140 with 4 x RCRs) is noticeably whiter and brighter than a G120 with 4 x primary cells. I'm not sure that I would describe it as "blazing" but certainly it's a worthwhile improvement. It doesn't appear to be on the verge of self destruction and it works fresh off charger. As an aside I just saw that QCG lists the 502D (4 cell) Ultrafire as suitable for rechargeables. I presume that this is the G140 lamp assembly so the factory must have developed it with RCRs in mind. The G120 is no longer listed as a separate item which is a shame because it was a much better bulb for primary cells.


----------



## OzzieDoc

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Just checked the QCG website again. Definately lists the Ultrafire WF502D as a rechargeable (3.6V) based 4 cell light. However my "Wilmet" Ultrafire WF502D from Kaidomain is listed as a 12V lamp and that's what is in it.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Just made some major changes to the compatibility chart... I decided to change the way I'm calculating lumen values. The lumens are overall higher than before, these values reflect "fresh-off-the-charger" estimates. By doing this, the chart has more "resolution" than before. I've also included a system for determining which configurations are confirmed, or unconfirmed, and in between, hehe.


----------



## defusion

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*



> Cell configuration: 2x17670
> 
> Bulb Option:
> MN10: 9.5W, 80 min, 155 lumen
> MN11: 9.5W, 80 min, 155 lumen
> 
> Body Option:
> SureFire M3 + 1 cell extender ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)



I believe you made a mistake there. MN11 should be quite a bit brighter


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

yep... you caught it about the same time I did, lol... fixed 

also made a few more adjustments... and just added the new LF M series to the chart where applicable... check for errors though, if something looks way outa wack, let me know... (like the MN10.MN11 error there, copy/paste errors)


----------



## jimjones3630

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Over the last week I've found myself back rearching this thread and it's alot of work you have done here.

Cheers for the hard work. I have a SF M3 which I haven't used for some time since only used primaries in it. Now there are a few other options which look praticularly interesting.

Thanks, Jim


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

I just had an idea. a web page, that lets you start by selecting either a body, a bulb, or a battery configuration, and working your way to a final compatible configuration.... I have no idea how to do this... but I think I might go brush up on my HTML(it's been years!) and see if it's reasonable.


----------



## Glen C

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Mdocod, maybe a chart in the meantime, easier to work out. Just put all the flashlights in groups like 2 cell CR123 could be WE Sniper, Surefire 6P, etc then 3 cell would be WE Raider, 9P, C3, etc. Would be simple to read, then people just work out what lumens/runtime they want.

People with extenders could adjust the group they were in, as most with extenders know what they have. Also some sections for different bulbs like Surefire M series flashlights, etc


----------



## defusion

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*



mdocod said:


> I just had an idea. a web page, that lets you start by selecting either a body, a bulb, or a battery configuration, and working your way to a final compatible configuration.... I have no idea how to do this... but I think I might go brush up on my HTML(it's been years!) and see if it's reasonable.


Don't think just HTML would do. You need some kind of server-side programming with a database backend. PHP with MySQL would be a good thing to brush up on


----------



## DM51

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*



mdocod said:


> I just had an idea. a web page, that lets you start by selecting either a body, a bulb, or a battery configuration, and working your way to a final compatible configuration...


That would be a superb resource for anyone trying to decide on a light, or just checking out whether an idea might work.

It would take a lot of work to set it up, though - and a lot more to keep up to date, too.


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Mdocod,

There is an M2 coming this way and I have spent many hours last few days trying to figure out whats the best combination available, with pros and cons etc, when I stumbled into this thread which sums up everything I needed to know. Thank you and appreciate all your hard work in preparing the resources above. Cheers!


----------



## leukos

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

mdocod, excellent job in compiling this information! I asked Unforgiven to add this to his Incandescent Threads of Interest! Do you think you might add LF's E series lamps as well?


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

I may very well add the E series lamps soon. I'm kinda burned out atm messing with this. But I will try to add th E series, and any others I can as soon as possible.


----------



## Ganp

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

This is a really ace guide :twothumbs 

That laptop video shook me up a bit :eeksign: 


Colin.


----------



## defusion

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

mdocod, what about running 6v bulbs on 1 li-ion?
What kind of runtimes/output could one expect?

I put one in my sf g2 with a P60, and it worked. Less bright, but very usable still.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

it's doable, it under-drives lamps. makes poor use of energy, poor lm/w, poor color temp.


But if you wanted an example:
here's a rough idea (I'm not going to include it in the chart because I wouldn't ever recommend it)

P60 2xCR123: ~5.6W, ~60 minutes, ~90 torch lumen, ~3250K, ~24B-Lu/W
P60 1x17670: ~3.7W, ~90 minutes, ~36 torch lumen, ~2990K, ~15B-Lu/W

P61 2xCR123: ~11.3W, ~20 minutes, ~170 torch lumen, ~3250K, ~24B-Lu/W
P61 1x17670: ~8.3W, ~35 minutes, ~90 torch lumen, ~3050K, ~17B-Lu/W

about a 30% loss in efficiency with about a 50-75% loss in light, depending on what lamp you choose.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

just made a few changes to the guide, facelift time!


----------



## SilverFox

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Hello Eric,

What started off as a few comments is turning into a book. You should publish it.

Excellent information, and it is presented very well.

Tom


----------



## CouchTater

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

All this lithium talk now has me interested. Lets say I was going to ROP a 2C Maglite. Here's what I think I'd need;

> high-temp glass lens
> aluminum reflector
> upgraded switch
> Kiu socket
> Welch Allyn 1274 bulb (bi-pin, 7.2VDC, 20W)
> two 18500 rechargeable Li-ion cells
> charger
> cell "holder"

Does that make sense?

Also, for 18500s in a C-cell, what is the "gap filler"? I've found threads on using tubing to fit 123s into a C chassis, but not Li-ions.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Those parts don't make an ROP because you are using a bi-pin socket and a WA bulb... I didn't really discuss lithium mag-mods here because nearly every major mag-mod has it's own running thread with information about the build and parts needed.

I recommend a 2D mag with a 6xNIMH configuration instead. especially if you are new to the hobby, it would be much safer for a first time modder, spend some time reading up on the mag mods and lithium safety before taking the plunge. 18500s are too small to safely drive the ROP high bulb.


----------



## defusion

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*



mdocod said:


> Those parts don't make an ROP because you are using a bi-pin socket and a WA bulb... I didn't really discuss lithium mag-mods here because nearly every major mag-mod has it's own running thread with information about the build and parts needed.
> 
> I recommend a 2D mag with a 6xNIMH configuration instead. especially if you are new to the hobby, it would be much safer for a first time modder, spend some time reading up on the mag mods and lithium safety before taking the plunge. 18500s are too small to safely drive the ROP high bulb.



AW now has 3300mAh C-cell li-ions, 2 of those are perfect for a 2C maglite (well, actually they're a bit to long, but AW offers extension tubes for the 2C, and it's not to much longer IMO) You might also want to consider a 2D and fit them in there, don't know how that would fit, but it would look more uniform then a 2c with extension tube.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

I'm trying to refrain from suggesting a pair of cells with the energy content comparable to a stick of TNT that requires proper supervision and understanding to unleash in a safe manner to someone brand new to the forum.


----------



## OzzieDoc

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Just tried a few different configurations which you may want to add to your body options.

2 x 17670. Superfire labelled WF503B seems identical to WF501D which is already listed.(I know it doesn't make sense)

2 x 18650. Ultrafire WF 502D (already listed as option for 17670 cells).

2 x 18500. Ultrafire/Superfire WF 501C, WF 502C


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

I'm only recently hearing reports that some ultra/super-fire bodies are taking some 18mm cells.. The other problem is their apparently very broken labeling system.. Doesn't seem to be any consistancy... I like you, Have a 4 cell UF labeled WF503B... So how they came up with that I don't know...

there's some variations.... seems like the 501 and 503 series bodies are very similar looking, but there are some minor internal differences (the 501 series appears to take LF lamps, where the 503 will not fit the LF lamps)...

I need to find out what's up with the naming structure on these. So I can hone in on compatibilities better.


----------



## sygyzy

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Simply put - Best thread in the world. Thank you for bringing this member back to speed.


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*



mdocod said:


> I'm trying to refrain from suggesting a pair of cells with the energy content *comparable to a stick of TNT* that requires proper supervision and understanding to unleash in a safe manner to someone brand new to the forum.



 to think about them in that way, but a serious point. Thanks again for the thread. First post has so many great points.


----------



## Glen C

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Mdocod, just using your great post as a reference and it occurred that I should thank you again for this, it really is fantastic. Thanks


----------



## softfeel

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*



mdocod said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Cell configuration: 2x18650
> 
> Bulb Option:
> SF MN10: 10W, 105 min, 160 lumen
> SF MN11: 20.5W, 45 min, 390 lumen
> LF HO-M3: 12.5W, 80 min, 250 lumen
> LF EO-M3: 16.5W, 60 min, 310 lumen
> 
> Body Option:
> Leefbody 2x18650 M head with M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++
> 
> *LF M3 lamps have only been tested for compatibility on a stock M3*
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I have tried the Lumens Factory EO-M3 with Leefbody 2x18650 M head and Surefire M3 CB head. It works like a charm so far. Less oval hotspot with better spill compared to the Surefire MN11 in the same setup.







And thank you very much for this thread, mdocod! :thumbsup:


----------



## LA OZ

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*

This is a treasure and should be a sticky. I thank you so much for your time.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Softfeel - thanks for the update.... I'll make updates accordingly....


i have just completed a major update to the way the lumen/runtime values are listed.. also included the new HO-M6R in the charts... enjoy... if anyone wants to take a moment to "proof-read" the chart and see if there are any glaring inconsistencies I would really appreciate it, I've got numbers flying through my vision like crazy, toooo much math!


----------



## BoomerSooner

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

mdocod,

Great chart, once again. Can you give some insight to the new lumen's ratings? It seems they have dropped, overall. And the spread, I don't understand. 

Example:


> 2 X 17670
> 
> SF P91: 20W, 330 - 175 lumen in 31 minutes


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*



mdocod said:


> I may very well add the E series lamps soon. I'm kinda burned out atm messing with this. But I will try to add th E series, and any others I can as soon as possible.


Yes please! It would be great to see the SF/LF E lamps there...


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

BoomerSooner...

I changed the way I come up with re-rated lumen values for these tactical style lamps... I'll try to elaborate some...

I chose some typical expected voltage values for given ranges of load on different cells. A "high" value and a "low" value. I derived the voltages by studying SilverFoxes charts in great detail, and trying to arrive at an average typical voltage output for a given size cell, into a given load... The high number, represents expected torch lumen output fresh off the charger, while the low number represents expected torch lumen towards the end of the discharge, just before the cell "falls on it's face." So the second lower number is about the output you could expect to see after the number of minutes of available runtime listed has passed....

So.. when I say "SF P91: 20W, 330 - 175 lumen in 31 minutes"
I am saying, "330 torch lumens fresh off the charger, diminishing to 175 torch lumen in 31 minutes, probably has a few minutes left of quickly dimming output followed by protection kicking in."

Hopefully that helps clear it up... 

I did go more conservative on this round of re-rates. I decided to account for closer to realistic situations.... It's possible to achieve far better or far worse than these numbers depending on the situation... I also changed to using 3.3 as the exponent in the lumen re-rating formula, as it is probably more accurate when dealing with high pressure xenon filled lamps (which most if not all of these lamps are.) (before I was using 3.5, the commonly accepted halogen re-rate exponent).


----------



## BoomerSooner

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Excellent, that explains it perfectly. Thank you!


----------



## Bloodnut

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

You are complete and total geek for putting that together. And I thank you very much! No wonder I have only the slightest grasp of how all this fits together. I saved the first page of the thread as a pdf. for future reference. That is a LOT of information to absorb. Absolutely fantastic compliation. Thanks again.


----------



## merlocka

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

In case anyone forgot how fantastic this thread is.

Oh, and AW is coming out with D cells soon


----------



## Deep6Osama

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Just when you think everything is covered fivemega offers up a bi-pin adapter for the M3, M4 and M6. This many configurations could drive a flashlight addict over the edge. This compatability guide should be published.


----------



## donn_

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Fascinating read! Thanks for all the work which went into it.

Any chance of expanding it to include all the P60-style LED drop-ins on the market?


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

well, it's an "incan" guide.. so I don't think I should get LEDs mixed up in there...

but check this out if you haven't already....

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/173764

(it's a sticky in the LED section)


----------



## donn_

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*



mdocod said:


> well, it's an "incan" guide.. so I don't think I should get LEDs mixed up in there...



You're probably right, and if I read it a few more times, I should understand the issues well enough to figure out how to translate it to LED modules.

Thanks again for the education.


----------



## sawlight

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

WOW!!!! WOW!!!! WOW!!!!!!

I wish I would have seen this sooner, would have explained a LOT of things to me!!! WOW!!!!!
THANK YOU!!!!

Please make this a sticky mods!!! I BEG you!!!!


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

it is a sticky... have to click on "threads of interest" first 

you're very welcome, thank you!


----------



## jayflash

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

I'd like to offer mdocod a belated thank you for his comprehensive work and for his personal reply to a question I had, recently, about the M6.


----------



## Lightguy27

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Mdocod, With this huge archive of information, I can't find what battery would fit in a new L4? Thanks and this is a HUGE service to CPF.

-Evan


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

sorry Lightguy27, the chart is limited to popular incandescent tactical lights for the most part.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

UPDATE 1/1/08 gave this thing some updates. Re-worded a few sections, elaborated on a few issues, tried to eliminate some redundancy, clarified a few things, titled a few more sections for better organization, and included the Surefire "E" series lights in the compatibility chart with LF lamps! I invite yall to have a look!


----------



## who

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Mdocod Sir,
Thank you for making a great sticky even better. :thumbsup:
Best Regards and Happy New Year to you.


----------



## brunt_sp

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Great thread especially with the E-series lights. Any chance of figures for the LF EO-E1R with 1X18650 and the LF EO-E2R with 2X18650 ?


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

that's a good question, I had forgotten than Leef and others have made 18650 bodies for E series lights... who else E series compatible bodies?


----------



## DM51

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Mirage_Man does them too.


----------



## max52

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

If bulb pulls 2.4C and the max Discharge rate of the 17670 cells are 1.5C, and you are using 2, does that mean the combined capacity of the 17670s is 3C?

Retract that question, in series the capacity is max discharge of a single battery.


----------



## txgp17

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

awesome info


----------



## adamlau

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

So when do we add Moli IMR-18650 powered configurations to the list


----------



## kosPap

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

guys this thread needs to become a sticky or added in the "threads of interest" post. 

There are times I want to reference it to friendsm and since I cannot bookmark it, I jave to search many old posts for a link to it.

thanks, Kostas


----------



## DM51

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*



kosPap said:


> guys this thread needs to become a sticky or added in the "threads of interest" post.


It already *IS* included in the "threads of interest" sticky.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*



> So when do we add Moli IMR-18650 powered configurations to the list



good question, I sure would like to see some discharge graphs of all the new cells we have popping up.. nano-tech, phosphate and manganese based cells with high current capabilities are going to make driving things like MN21s on a pair of little cells much more safe... If we can just get some decent phosphate based cells in RCR123 size we can start pushing P91s in 2xCR123 size lights and take back some lost ground from the world of LEDs.


----------



## kosPap

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*



DM51 said:


> It already *IS* included in the "threads of interest" sticky.


 
indeed it is now, but wasn't a blocked CPFWiki chart in its palce till yesterday I checked?


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

it's been in the sticky list since about 5/07, shortly after I started the project.


----------



## Grampa

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Great info! 

Looking through it, I may have made a poor combination for a Mag 2C mod. I put one together using a pair of AW protected 18500's, pushing one of Kai's KD773U bi-pin bulbs. I don't want to pop the batteries, so what should I expect for reasonable run time between charges, or is it even realistic to run those batteries that hard?


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

you should be fine. That's "pushing it" but within reason IMO. Use it in short increments to keep the cells healthy.

That bulb is supposedly 2.8A at 8.3V, realistically speaking, with the resistance of the maglight and the voltage sag of the cells you will never get more than about 7.0-7.2V to that bulb at about 2.5-2.6A, The theoretical maximum safe discharge rate for the 18500s is somewhere around 2.5-3A depending on the cell and other factors. AW sells his 18500s with the expressed intent that they could be used to drive an 1185 bulb, which draws around 3A, so you are fine IMO. Runtime should be around 20-30 minutes.


----------



## Grampa

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Thanks! Yeah, the only resistance mod I've done on it was to copper strap the spring, in one of FM's SS tailcaps. And, of course, using an FM SS bi-pin adapter. Nothing on the switch.

Grampa


----------



## fxstsb

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandescent guide, +compatibility/comparison chart*

Thanks for your post.

*Moderator note:* You just quoted the entire gigantic post #1, which was unnecessary and just makes it a nuisance to scroll throught the thread. I have deleted the quote - it really wasn't required.


----------



## soapy

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Never needed this before, but I've been looking through it today as I've got 29 surplus-to-requirements cheap-&-low-current protected 18650's.

Seems like my plan to stop the voltage sag by having a big parallel bank of batteries would simply have cost me a lot of bulbs!

Great job! :twothumbs

Now to find a UK supplier of decent bulbs...


----------



## KJCA3

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Wow thank you for all of the information!


----------



## jdonner

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Great info, but in all honesty...if one has to know all this to have optimum safety (and even then it's still risky)...no thanks, why wife and kids are too precious to have my house burn down on them just for a flashlight, no Lithium-Ions in my house. :wave:


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

think of the overkill warnings as scare tactics to make sure people take some precautions:

Pick a configuration that uses quality protected cells.
Pick a configuration with ~1 hour or more runtime.
Use a Pila IBC charger.
Try not to discharge them to the point that the protection kicks in.

If you follow these basic easy instructions, you are in no more danger than you would be owning a cell phone or laptop or PDA. 

Overall, Li-Ion has a very good safety record in consumer devices. Flashlight just happen to be a device where all the safety nets are not guaranteed to be in place unless the user implements them. Take responsibility and you can use Li-Ion tech in flashlights and have no safety concerns greater than you should have owning a typical home appliance/computer/phone etc...

When li-ion cells fail violently, it is almost exclusively while the cell is charging, not discharging, so if you wanted, you could actually make your flashlight SAFER than your cell phone by simply setting up your charging station inside of a fireproof box of sorts in the garage. (like some bricks stacked up into a small box with a concrete lid). This would be overkill IMO....

The number of reported li-ion explosions even here on the forums is remarkably low. Most reported cases occurred with unprotected cells. 

We have some members here on the forums who own HUNDREDS of li-ion cells and have not had any explosions. (many of them own large numbers of unprotected cells, but the users take responsibility to use the cells correctly)

The use of lithium primary CR123 cells actually has a much higher track record of explosive failure. 

Hope that helps alleviate any discomforts you have about the concept of using Li-Ion.


----------



## AlexLED

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Hi mdocod, 
great overview and very useful !!! Used this a couple of times already ! 

Ever thought of casting that into a spreadsheet ? 
I have started a list for personal use and could try to import all your listed options.


----------



## lctorana

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Just as an addendum to this excellent guide, I have on order yet another lithium torch combination.

It's a cute little Ultrafire WF-501*A*, which unusually combinesa CR123 with a D26 dropin.

So what's the brightest 3.7V dropin I can *safely *use?

With a AW RCR123 (750mAh), the LF HO-4, pulling 1.8A, would run for 25 minutes.

25 minutes is within the parameters for much of the guide, but 1.8A seems a heck of a lot for such a tiny cell.

Mdocod, whaddayouthink?


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

unfortunately, even the HO-4 would be way over the limit. Realistically, an RCR123 has on average about 550mAH capacity, and my runtime figures in the guide take realistic runtime based on realistic cell capacity into account. 

Into the load of a HO-4, I would expect a RCR123 to deliver maybe 450mAH on a good day, which puts that load at nearly 4C and an estimated runtime of maybe 15 minutes. On top of that, the RCR123 would suffer from substantial voltage sag at this load, and the HO-4 would not be very bright. 

In 1 cell applications I routinely suggest LED options as you can get quite a bit more light without stressing the cell, for your recently acquired 501A, I'd suggest looking into a LED D26 drop-in that is designed for use on a single li-ion cell for best performance... 

For 1 cell rechargeable incandescent illumination, the best option available currently is a SureFire E1E with am EO-E1R, still a 1.3A load, so technically pretty hard on the cell (25 minutes runtime give or take), stepping down to a HO-E1R would be advisable (~40 minutes runtime).

Look for D26 compatible modules that are rated for a maximum 4.2V input, this will insure that you get module that stays in regulation on your RCR123 cell. 


Eric


----------



## lctorana

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Thanks Eric,

I was afraid you might have said something like that. I was rather hopeful, on account of another forum member claiming to drive a P7 off 1 x RCR123, but c'est la vie.

I have an E1e with both of those LF bulbs, and several 1-cell LED torches, so I'll content myself with running the WF-501A with the stock bulb and a CR123 primary.


----------



## CM

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Just found this great thread. Thanks mdocod.


----------



## zipplet

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

I also want to add my thanks. I think this thread deserves a sticky.


----------



## DM51

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Posted today:




zipplet said:


> I think this thread deserves a sticky.


 Posted 7 months ago:




DM51 said:


> kosPap said:
> 
> 
> 
> guys this thread needs to become a sticky or added in the "threads of interest" post.
> 
> 
> 
> It already *IS* included in the "threads of interest" sticky.
Click to expand...

It has been there for over 1 year now.


----------



## zipplet

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Oh, sorry


----------



## Nite

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*




zipplet said:


> Oh, sorry




hey that my fault i guess, i gave him the direct link to this thread!

the teacher has become the master....

SO two months ago MD you wrote me back regarding two 18650 running a P91 and said that it was risky..but no note of that risk to the bulb in your thread!

also i thought alot of other Pms we exchanged were good post material, during the time a technical bug prevented my posting my first posts.

I hope its ok to reprint this.,.i mean ok with you.

back then I accidentally called, what turned out to be a custom built leefbody C to C body, a cree body...
-------------------------------
06-05-2008, 11:43 AM	
mdocod 
Re: A question about new AW 2200 ma 18650
Hi 

I'm not 100% sure why you can't reply to posts, you might try starting a thread in the "practice posting" section of the forum just to see if it's not some other problem. The li-ion-incan guide is very old, it may have user restrictions placed on it these days. 


I wasn't aware of any "cree" body that converts a G3 into a 2x18650 host. There does seem to be a large number of P60 hosting "chinese" tactical lights that could be used to complete the configuration you are talking about. Heck, maybe one of them is called a Cree, hehe. (Usually the term "cree" is reserved for LEDs made by that brand)...

*The P91 will be driven pretty hard on a pair of li-ion cells regardless of whether it's a 1800mAH or 2200mAH or 2600mAH cell. Generally speaking, larger sized cells have lower internal resistance, so anything in the 18650 format is going to perform pretty strong, higher capacity cells sometimes have lower resistance than lower capacity cells but this doesn't necessarily hold true in all cases. A P91 is designed to be driven at about 6.6V on 3 CR123 cells, on a pair of 18650s, it will be driven well over 7V. 99% of the time it works fine, I've heard of a few reported incidents of premature bulb failure. Keep in mind that overall bulb life is reduced. *The highest capacity protected cells available are going to be the 2200mAH rated cells. If this is your first li-ion powered light, I highly recommend protected cells. Higher mAH translates to longer runtimes, think of it like having a larger gas tank. 

Any quote for runtime and performance on 18650s in the chart is based on 2200mAH cells. So if you want to come close to those numbers, that's the best way to do it. 

--------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite:
Hail, and thats a great post..found it with google

Unable to post a reply or even click on your name

My name here is nite and I am new here..

Big fan of yours...

Wanted to post reply

going to use a Cree body too fit two 18650s into my G3 with P91 Lamp
when checking out at Lighthound I noticed there are TWO types of 18650, 1800ma and 2200ma
I edited my cart to buy the 2200ma AW 18650 cells, how do you think this would fit into your charts? Will the bulb instantly burn out? is this too much power? what do you think the lumens and runtimes would be? is it safe, they are protected. Should I buy them for 2$ more each? does this translate to higher lumens and runtime?

thanks for your effort.

---------


In retrospect I think sometimes I shouldve gone with 2x18650 instead of 2x18500 to drive my P91, but after realizing an instaflashed bulb wouldnt have saved my butt back on saturday....im happy with the power and shorter length. Besides im trading 10% light for Lamp reliability .... you said we cant see the diff!

I think you should note that driving a P91 with x 18650 should have the same or similiar, hard on lamp warning you gave for this example

"Cell configuration: 3x RCR123
Bulb Options:
G&P G120: 15W, 275 - 145 lumen in 20 minutes (HIGH risk of instaflashing bulb, hard on cells)"

unless you consider the P91 now reliable with 2x18650 running it?

I cant get the 2x17500 in the old body to light a p91 but I see it isnt listed..nice touch.


Hope I didnt overstep my bounds....


----------



## Nite

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*



jdonner said:


> Great info, but in all honesty...if one has to know all this to have optimum safety (and even then it's still risky)...no thanks, why wife and kids are too precious to have my house burn down on them just for a flashlight, no Lithium-Ions in my house. :wave:



from what i read here

In all the years this site has been up, all the members...ever.

Only two battery explosions of this exact type Lion.


BOTH TIMES the guys charging their cells had bought 200-300$ hobby grade chargers...

BOTH TIMES They had been charging on THE WRONG SETTING

both times the cells exploded it was loud but the house didnt burn down...

justa big mess and some hydroflouric acid...lithium etc...

a hole in the wall where one part went, a burn on the rug ....where the other half landed.

Two times human error with no disaster...out of Zillions of cells from hundreds of thousands (billions and billions) of people. even many using unprotected cells.

Buy a retail consumer level charger like the WF 139 for under 15$, no switches! use PROTECTED cells from AW and you will never have a problem, although you might get hit by lightning too.

your already using these lion batteries in your laptop and cellphone.


----------



## Nite

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

YOU ALREADY HAVE A DOZEN OF THESE CELLS IN YOUR HOME

6 of Our BIGGEST in your One laptop battery all lined up

look up Lithium ion fire on you tube.

One in every cellphone...bluetooth headset..many electronic devices with or without rechargeable ability. the backup cells for memory on many electronics.

I think theres a few in your car, one in the ezpass.

I have two of them in my electric jacket! yes!


----------



## Nite

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Ok, I have taken my cells off the charger at about 4.11 Volts...used them some time later....for about 90 minutes, the voltage is about 3.83 on both.

I place them on the charger..they are still warm. 
Now how long do I wait before I can recharge them all the way up again on MY Ultrafire 139?

Ive put in spares but they are already low...about 3.95 So now I dont want to wait long to recharge the first set.

thanks.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*



Nite said:


> Ok, I have taken my cells off the charger at about 4.11 Volts...used them some time later....for about 90 minutes, the voltage is about 3.83 on both.
> 
> I place them on the charger..they are still warm.
> Now how long do I wait before I can recharge them all the way up again on MY Ultrafire 139?
> 
> Ive put in spares but they are already low...about 3.95 So now I dont want to wait long to recharge the first set.
> 
> thanks.



Hello Nite, 

If they are only warm to the touch I don't see a problem with recharging them right away, if your configuration is routinely being run for 90 minutes straight at a time, and the cells are coming out HOT as a result of the long burns, then you may want to consider alternative configuration options (like something with a bigger head to dissipate more heat)... Heating LiCo cells to that point of "Ow, holy crap that's hot" all the time isn't going to be great for them. But keep in mind that Laptops regularly have internal temps ~120F or warmer and people plug em in and recharge them all the time with no regard for cell temps.

Eric


----------



## Nite

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

I should add then its a FM body running 2x18500-->Fm1794 used on and off for 90 min, I cant deplete these cells in this setup according too your guide, in less than 30 minutes right?




mdocod said:


> Hello Nite,
> 
> If they are only warm to the touch I don't see a problem with recharging them right away, if your configuration is routinely being run for 90 minutes straight at a time, and the cells are coming out HOT as a result of the long burns, then you may want to consider alternative configuration options (like something with a bigger head to dissipate more heat)... Heating LiCo cells to that point of "Ow, holy crap that's hot" all the time isn't going to be great for them. But keep in mind that Laptops regularly have internal temps ~120F or warmer and people plug em in and recharge them all the time with no regard for cell temps.
> 
> Eric


----------



## mdocod

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

You are misinterpreting the rule of discharge rates for LiCo cells.

If the TOTAL runtime, no matter how you break it up, is less than 30 minutes, then technically speaking, you are over the 2C limit for LiCo cells. 

Having said that, most experts would agree that if the run is broken up into short bursts of like minute or less, then bordering on and being slightly over the "2C" limit is not a major problem. 

By your interpretation, it would be OK to run a LiCo cell into a dead short in short bursts spread out over a half an hour to discharge it. See how that might be a problem?

2x18500 driving the 1794 is borderline on the 2C limit, and depending on the cells in question, is probably closer to 2.5C or higher, I have not seen a discharge graph of an 18500 cell that could deliver a true ~1.5AH into an aggressive load. FM claims it's fine, and AW even claims his 18500s are safe for use driving an 1185 (which has an even more demanding load when driven by li-ion cells) so I think you'll be fine. However, I would not suggest running a high wattage lamp in a flashlight that small for extended periods of time anyways. The heat buildup is going to be rapid and substantial. There is a reason LumensFactory puts "heat warnings" and maximum recommended continuous runs on some of their higher powered lamps, and a lot of it is just to protect the health of the cells used to drive the lamp. 

Eric


----------



## Nite

*Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart*

Wow thanks..yeah..I tried to get my total 25 min runtime spread out over an hour, or like above, 90 minutes.

I like using the light when cleaning or vacumming time to time, dirt cant hide from 600 lumens.

my light isnt just for self defense.



mdocod said:


> You are misinterpreting the rule of discharge rates for LiCo cells.
> 
> If the TOTAL runtime, no matter how you break it up, is less than 30 minutes, then technically speaking, you are over the 2C limit for LiCo cells.
> 
> Having said that, most experts would agree that if the run is broken up into short bursts of like minute or less, then bordering on and being slightly over the "2C" limit is not a major problem.
> 
> By your interpretation, it would be OK to run a LiCo cell into a dead short in short bursts spread out over a half an hour to discharge it. See how that might be a problem?
> 
> 2x18500 driving the 1794 is borderline on the 2C limit, and depending on the cells in question, is probably closer to 2.5C or higher, I have not seen a discharge graph of an 18500 cell that could deliver a true ~1.5AH into an aggressive load. FM claims it's fine, and AW even claims his 18500s are safe for use driving an 1185 (which has an even more demanding load when driven by li-ion cells) so I think you'll be fine. However, I would not suggest running a high wattage lamp in a flashlight that small for extended periods of time anyways. The heat buildup is going to be rapid and substantial. There is a reason LumensFactory puts "heat warnings" and maximum recommended continuous runs on some of their higher powered lamps, and a lot of it is just to protect the health of the cells used to drive the lamp.
> 
> Eric


----------



## Nite

*Thinking of pairing different cells*

wow thanks for the new info

whats the runtime of a FM 1794 on 2x18500?


The reason im posting is a question....I have been using unprotected cells, despite the risk, since I closely monitor the cells, and mitigate risk.

Im using a pair of Unprotected DLG 1400mah 18490 (18500) cells with a thin magnetic spacer, and blue painters tape to seal the gap and virtually eliminate the risk of the spacer shorting the cell.

The reason I do this is the Hi amp spring in my Drop in module from FM is a bit long in non-FM bodies so its too tight for two AW 1500mah protected cells.

But there is room for one protected and one unprotected cell together. I can eliminate the magnetic spacer, they are both quality cells. I would get half the benefits and half the risk if one cell has a PCB then there are some situations where it might be helpful.

Although as You stated earlier if the PCB trips at 2.5 volts low voltage, its ready for the garbage. right?

IF I go below 3.0 volts on unprotected cells, replacement cost is lower.
:candle:


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Thinking of pairing different cells*

Under the load of a 1794, runtime would probably be somewhere around 22-26 minutes, depending on your particular cells. 

Using unprotected cells is generally fine as long as you are taking an active role in checking the voltage of the cells coming out of the flashlight before charging, and using a charger that terminates with 100% reliability. I don't recommend it when speaking more generally because most people would get complacent about it. 

In the case of the 1794, the high load of the lamp is pulling the voltage under that load down pretty far. The result is that when the PCB trips at 2.5V, the cell is very likely to rebound to well over 3V open circuit. Again, I have to speak more generally about the usefulness of PCBs in a broad range of applications when writing a guide. On slower drain rate configurations, the voltage sag is not as much, and as such, the amount of voltage rebound after the load is removed is much less as well. Slower drain rate configurations, drained till the PCB trips, will leave the cell sitting ~3V, sometimes less... So I tend to advise against draining it all the way down till the PCB trips as it's not entirely healthy for the cell...

Having said that, tripping your low-voltage cutoff a few times on accident in a more normal drain rate application is not going to be the end of the world. The manufacture specifies a safe voltage range and it is generally ~2.5-4.2V for most li-ion cells. Most consumer devices will sever the connection when the cell reaches ~3V under a light load. Under higher loads, discharge to 2.5V under that load is considered perfectly safe since the cell voltage is usually only under 3V for a few seconds before it falls to 2.5V and trips the circuit anyways. 

ideally speaking, regardless of configuration, it would be best not to rely on the PCB to tell you when it's time to charge, as the cells will wear out faster. Limiting the depth of discharge to 60-80% of the available capacity of the cells is always good practice that will extend cycle life and improve safety. 

I would also be hesitant to combine a protected and unprotected cell hoping that the protected cell could prevent over-discharge on both cells... The concept would work fine on paper provided you knew with 100% certainty that your DLG unprotected cell had more available capacity than the protected AW, but you would need to do some testing to determine that. 

Many people have charged cells that have been discharged to below 3V without a problem. my biggest concern is trying to charge cells that are below 3V, that have been stored in that condition for a long period of time, they are not likely to recover. 

As an example: I have a pair of AW brand 17670s from YEARS ago. they are the old blue label protected cells (some of you may remember them)... I still use them to this day, and they still hold ~4.10V after charging on my DSD. I cycle them in my Agro HP headlamp. Most of the time I use the headlamp, I use it for hours on end, and often totally forget it's even on my head until I start to notice something has changed (it's getting dimmer) towards the end of the discharge. I quickly reach up and shut off the load, and then take the cell to the multi-meter, where it almost always reads ~2.85V and climbing. I always just slap it on the charger as soon as possible. It's not the greatest thing for them. But when you are using a tool and you are busy, you aren't going to pay close attention to something like that, so I just accept that that's how those cells are going to be cycled and move on with life. They are doing fine considering age. 

Eric


----------



## Nite

Wow thanks for that information, another question please...
You state
Cell configuration: 2xIMR16340 (LiMn chemistry RCR123 from AW)

(these are rougher estimates than most of the others in the chart, but should be close enough to accurate for comparisons sake)

Bulb Options:
LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 110 - 70 lumen in 37 minutes
LF D26 SR-9: 9W, 150 - 85 lumen in 25 minutes
LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 195 - 100 lumen in 19 minutes
LF D26 EO-9: 15W, 240 - 110 lumen in 15 minutes
SF P90: 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
SF P91: 20W, 300 - 125 lumen in 10 minutes
G&P G90: 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 10.5W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
Pathfinder P90: 10W, 155 - 90 lumen in 23 minutes
WE D26 9V: 10W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
Pila GL3 LA: 10W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
FM1794 in FM bi-pin D26: 22+W, 350 - 150 lumen in 8 minutes

however AW states"- High Current Threshold : they are good to run on high current draw incan lamps such as P90, TL-3, Strion and CA1499. They 'll even power up the Lumens Factory HO-9 ( 320 lumens ) and EO-9 ( 380 lumens ) on just 1 click ( use on EO-9 is not recommended ).

there's a contradiction there...does this mean it isnt "safe" or is just battery abuse?


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

> there's a contradiction there...does this mean it isnt "safe" or is just battery abuse?




*+1*

I'd like to know that too...


----------



## mdocod

Hi Nite and Outdoors Fanatic,

There is no contradiction. Look closely. You have quoted:

*"Cell configuration: 2xIMR16340 (LiMn chemistry RCR123 from AW)"*

I am in the process of updating the chart to include configurations that are possible with the NEW lithium manganese oxide chemistry cells. IMR16340 cells are NOT the same as other RCR123s, they can be found here:

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=184887

Maximum safe discharge rate of 8C, or somewhere around 4 amps. they can safely drive every available bulb on that chart you have quoted. 

-----------------------------------

The RCR123 chart is still there, right above the IMR16340 chart. And those limits still need to be followed for use with lithium cobalt cells in RCR123 sizes. The HO-9 is technically pushing it but I have chosen to leave it on the list, IIRC the guide mentions that any configuration with less than 30 minutes runtime on LiCo cells should be used in short bursts if possible. If you look at the guide, there are some new sections in "blue" text that point out exceptions and specific important facts about LiMn chemistry cells. 

In the coming weeks, I hope to be able to update the chart with more LiMn configuration options. The 2xIMR16340>D26 is all I have done at this time. There are a number of options possible in the turbohead section as well that have yet to be listed. 

Eric


----------



## Nite

Yes looks like I made an error and followed the wrong link on AWs Page

I was looking at the specs on his regular RCR123s I think.

I dont know how i followed the wrong link..

mustve been very tired.

fixed my mistake......on another thread too.

IMR16340
Safe chemistry LiMN 3.7V rechargeable battery is now available in R123 size. These cells can handle high amperage and is safe to use in series / multi-cell applications. Can be charge with any LiIon battery charger with 4.2V output.

Specifications :

Nominal Voltage : 3.7V
Capacity : 550mAH 
Lowest Discharge Voltage : 2.50V
Standard Charge : CC/CV ( max. charging rate 1.5A )
Cycle Life : > 500 cycles
Max. continuous discharge rate : 8C


Caution :

- Do not over-discharge/overcharge;
- Recharge empty batteries ( resting voltage ~3.6V ) as soon as possible. Leaving LiIon batteries in discharged state will incur irreversible damage ( capacity / cycle loss );
- Do not short circuit ( will release tremendous current );
- Do not dispose of in fire.


----------



## Nite

Switching to LiMn 2x18650

If everything is working fine, tailcap clickie, FM1794 lamp with LiCo cells

why switch?


Safety?

wont it lower my overall brightness and runtime? 33% less power?

I hear I will
need a new twisty tailcap, what do You suggest to replace a Z59

what kind of runtime you think with a P91?

Thanks.


----------



## divine

With incandescents, the voltage sag of the cells means a lot. These IMR cells hold higher voltage when they're putting out a lot of power. So you'll have a brighter light over the life of the cells. Even with some of the lower powered incandescent lamps.

In my head, I don't see why you would want to use protected cells with any incandescent anymore.


----------



## Nite

divine said:


> With incandescents, the voltage sag of the cells means a lot. These IMR cells hold higher voltage when they're putting out a lot of power. So you'll have a brighter light over the life of the cells. Even with some of the lower powered incandescent lamps.
> 
> In my head, I don't see why you would want to use protected cells with any incandescent anymore.



Your going to blow out your bulb. 1/3 less runtime. And chance ruining your tailswitch.

Advantages..bigger bulbs in smaller sized body. Safety.

For the hundreds of dollars of lights I have LiCo works perfectly
just to play around I will get one pair of 18650 IMR with soft start switch
and im already using IMR 16340s.


----------



## mdocod

Nite said:


> Switching to LiMn 2x18650
> 
> If everything is working fine, tailcap clickie, FM1794 lamp with LiCo cells
> 
> why switch?
> 
> 
> Safety?
> 
> wont it lower my overall brightness and runtime? 33% less power?
> 
> I hear I will
> need a new twisty tailcap, what do You suggest to replace a Z59
> 
> what kind of runtime you think with a P91?
> 
> Thanks.



For the 1794, a pair of 18650 size LiCo cells is going to be your best bet. The bulb will probably just instaflash on a pair of IMR18650s. The P91 would also probably not survive long enough to be worth it's price....

For the 1794, or any bulb running over 2.5 amps, you would be better off with a twisty whether you are using LiMn or LiCo cells. A Z41 won't fail you. 

Eric


----------



## Nite

mdocod said:


> For the 1794, a pair of 18650 size LiCo cells is going to be your best bet. The bulb will probably just instaflash on a pair of IMR18650s. The P91 would also probably not survive long enough to be worth it's price....
> 
> For the 1794, or any bulb running over 2.5 amps, you would be better off with a twisty whether you are using LiMn or LiCo cells. A Z41 won't fail you.
> 
> Eric



thanks for the continued great info. I think its time to try an axial 3 cell lamp for my FM reflectors. for IMR 16340 x 3. 

Uhg, i hate twisties, needs two hands sometimes. I just bought a Z59 for every light I own and one Z49 for my car light.

Im gonna have to buy so many soft starts..maybe just one to use with fresh off the charger AND forgotten about until they hit 4.21 and terminated LiCO cells.

its amazing how fast 8.42 volts driven by 18500x2 or 18650x2 will flash an FM1794


----------



## Nite

any benefit of taking these new IMR cells off the charger before 4.2?
I have been pulling them at about 4.12 when i remember to pull them.
:thanks:
in a 6P, I have been putting two of them, fully charged because they charge up so fast, in with a 1794, no instaflash, at 22 watts the load must be enough to quickly sag those little cells.

Also a single one runs a SF LED a long time very brightly in a 3P


----------



## mdocod

Nite said:


> any benefit of taking these new IMR cells off the charger before 4.2?
> I have been pulling them at about 4.12 when i remember to pull them.
> :thanks:



It certainly won't hurt. There are some LiMn chemistry cells (not AWs) that actually call for charge termination at 4.10V. I would suspect that like LiCo cells, there would be some cycle life benefit to terminating the charge a little lower, but I'm sorry I can't say how much benefit there would be. You are probably both extending lamp and cell life doing so, so nothing wrong with that if you want to do so 




> in a 6P, I have been putting two of them, fully charged because they charge up so fast, in with a 1794, no instaflash, at 22 watts the load must be enough to quickly sag those little cells.



That's exactly right, it's a 6C load for those little cells, and they handle those loads pretty respectably, but do sag down enough to save the high current bulbs from instaflashing


----------



## Nite

Noticed a blank spot!

Got a guesstimate in the meantime for the two lights I just sold to cops?

building ordering now

FM 1794 run on 2x Lico 18650

450 lumens for 38 minutes decreasing steadily? (based on 10% more than P91)


----------



## mdocod

yep, bout 450-500ish diminishing to ~250-300ish in 35-40 minutes.


----------



## Nite

question

since an EO 9 is designed for 2 lithium ion cells

if I take two LiCo 18650 fresh off the charger at 4.21 volts each, and powered it up...will it instaflash or can it take it?

(option two, is an fm 1794 plus soft start.) more money


----------



## mdocod

Nite said:


> question
> 
> since an EO 9 is designed for 2 lithium ion cells
> 
> if I take two LiCo 18650 fresh off the charger at 4.21 volts each, and powered it up...will it instaflash or can it take it?
> 
> (option two, is an fm 1794 plus soft start.) more money



The EO-9 has a higher design voltage than the P91 and 1794, and a higher target life than the 1794, I am not aware of any configuration of 2xli-ion cells that poses any significant increase in insta-flash risk to an EO-9, I have run mine on a pair of 18650s in both LiCo and LiMn chemistry without any problems. 

Eric


----------



## Nite

mdocod said:


> The EO-9 has a higher design voltage than the P91 and 1794, and a higher target life than the 1794, I am not aware of any configuration of 2xli-ion cells that poses any significant increase in insta-flash risk to an EO-9, I have run mine on a pair of 18650s in both LiCo and LiMn chemistry without any problems.
> 
> Eric



The resistance in LF EO9 is enough to protect your setup from two IMR 18650s? It didnt burn your switch or your bulb?

Id hate to have this cops cells explode since he will never terminate early or monitor the charge

id rather sell him those instead of two licos, safer, and they cost less too!

advice? he is buying a FM 2x 18650. with Z59, soft start MAYBE..too expensive..

right now its setup for two LiCo and a FM1794 or SFP91


----------



## mdocod

Nite said:


> The resistance in LF EO9 is enough to protect your setup from two IMR 18650s? It didnt burn your switch or your bulb?
> 
> Id hate to have this cops cells explode since he will never terminate early or monitor the charge
> 
> id rather sell him those instead of two licos, safer, and they cost less too!
> 
> advice? he is buying a FM 2x 18650. with Z59, soft start MAYBE..too expensive..
> 
> right now its setup for two LiCo and a FM1794 or SFP91



I can't honestly recommend a Z59 for any duty light that absolutely must work 100% of the time. The Z41 is the only option IMO.

The Z59 is going to be really stressed hard switching the load of either the P91 or the 1794 on LiCo cells. I think overall, an EO-9 on LiMn cells might be a tad easier on the Z59, but it's hard to say... It's kind of a tossup. 

To be honest, I'd be hard pressed to recommend running either the P91 or the 1794 on a pair of 18650s for a duty light for LEOs. They are both operating at that brilliant white incan bliss point on 18650s, and aren't going to have the kind of bulb life generally associated with duty light configuration options.

I would lean towards a M60 from MalkOff for that application. 

The EO-9 would probably be the most reasonable incan option to keep the bulb reliability up. 

With the EO-9 for your application. I would go with protected LiCo cells, more runtime, better bulb and switch reliability.


----------



## VegasF6

*looking for mag 2c incan bulb 2ximr 18650*

As the title says, I am looking for options to run in a mag 2C bi-pin bulb. (with IMR 18650)
This thread doesn't exactly seem aimed towards mag mods, so let me know if I should be looking elsewhere. 

At first I considered the 5761 bulb, but feared instaflash, and apparently it has happened at least once, as in this thread.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/210079

I spent a little time on Luxluthors destructive bulb testing thread, and one bulb I found that could easily take the voltage was the GE 347118. Problems though, for one thing I can't seem to find it anywhere, and more importantly at equal wattage to some other bulbs, the output seems pretty low. I really don't know much about the efficiency of incan bulbs, but apparently there is such a thing. For instance, the 64275 at 7.5 volts makes nearly 50% more lumens, yet the current draw is only up .3 amps and the bulb temp shows only a 9 degree rise over the GE bulb. 

Obviously the 64275 is a great little bulb. I haven't even looked in the size or type of filament or anything. However, Lux shows this thing flashing at 8.1 volts and an awfully short bulb life to say the least at 8 volts. 

So, I was surprised to find the 64275 listed as a safe configuration with 2XIMR18650 at the beginning of this thread.

I could only conclude voltage sag and resistance are responsible for this working. But, then I was able to find LuxLuthors graph of these cells here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/205814
At roughly 4-5C I didn't expect much voltage drop with the IMR. What I thought was odd though is Lux's graphs seem to start at a pretty low voltage, for all his tests. None of them seem to have a starting voltage over ~3.8

However, AW's own graphs that are also in that thread show a start voltage of well over 4V, at least on his 3A test.

I am not really sure what to extract from all this information. Is it that the cells are all starting at higher voltages but the graphs aren't showing a short enough duration of time to see the voltage sag? Like, does it happen in seconds, or even micro seconds?

In a very round a bout way I guess I am asking for confirmation that I could run a Mag 2C with 64275 and 2xIMR18650 and probably not instaflash? (without a soft starter) I am sure I stumbled across someone stating that the same set up was very white, probably not in a mag, can't recall.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: looking for mag 2c incan bulb 2ximr 18650*

I have used Emoli brand LiMn 18650 cells in an M6 to drive a 64275 quite a bit. I have not flashed a bulb *yet.* But I don't want to make the mistake of saying that it can't happen, but I will report my experience as that. I would assume, that given the higher resistance you're going to have in a 2C mag switch as compared with an M6, I wouldn't suspect you would have any problems..

A few words to note though...

It will require a tail-cap modification, (de-anodize etc)... and the 64275 is LONG in the base. It will require some creative shimming or something to get into focus.

The 64275 is an axial filament, the beam shape is much different than ordinary flashlight beams, so be prepared for a bit of a shock, and be ready to experiment with focussing options as there is no single best focused position, it can be adjust to a massive wide sloth of light with a slightly pronounced central beam, or it can be tightened down to get more into the central beam and a reduced splotch size. My feeling is that the bulb would really be at home in a HOP reflector making a wall of light, but it can do some throwing in the middle of the beam that is quite impressive if it is focused right in a mildly textured reflector. 

-----------------------

You're frustrations in comparing AWs charts to LuxLuthors charts, to LuxLuthors destructive testing is not the only case of frustration. I have had my fair share of head-scratching in all of that and am still trying to decide what to take from it all....

I had made the mistake of looking at LuxLuthors discharge chart and seeing AWs cells having basically the same starting loaded voltage as my Emoli cells, and figured that AWs cells, if rested, would probably not flash the MN21. I haven't had one flash on the Emoli bran cells, but I think we have had at least 1 report of AWs version of the these LiMn cells flashing the MN21... So the charts, while very helpful, are not showing some of the minor differences in enough resolution to "jump out" at us... 

I guess all configuration options should be considered experimental with LiMn cells until numerous people have tried them. With that in mind, I say give it a try and see how you like the 64275 

Eric


----------



## VegasF6

I have a 2C setup with downloads ring, spring, and battery holder to take care of the battery part. I thought I had a spare Kiu socket, but now pulling it out I see it is actually a D cell adapter, so that will need to be addressed. I have a few different MOP reflectors but no HOP. I wasn't aware of the axial filament though, that is sort of a turn off for me.

Being a long bulb, what would I shim exactly? With the Kiu socket and the long nuts claimed "optimal focusing with WA bulbs" and of course with the short nuts, it is quite short indeed. So I guess I could try the long nuts and screwing the head in and out, if that wasn't enough perhaps there are shorter mother board stand offs than the 10mm supplied?

I haven't given up on the 64275, but let's say I am still willing to entertain other options at this point. Any other bulb suggestions by any chance? Criteria would be either a G4 or G5.3, preferrably a transverse filament. It needs to have some wow factor, but I would like a little bit of run time, like double digits? Also prefer to no major switch mods, so I am thinking 7 amps, or 50 watts MAX but preferably a bit less. It does need to take advantage of the IMR's though. Let's see, the LICO AW's are 2200 mAH so 2C would be 4.4 amps. That would equate to 35 watts before re-rating the bulb, but I am sure a 30 watt or even less would bring me into that territory with the higher voltage. What would really be nice would be a bulb designed to run at ~35 watts and ~7.5V but if one exists, I am not aware of it. I know I am asking a heck of a lot, trying to get M6 light at Kmart prices  

Maybe I should be looking into 20W bulbs. How do the WA 1111,1274, or 1164 look as contenders?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
So the Emoli cells and AW IMR have similar starting voltages but the initial burst performance is different? That could be a bit troublesome as well.


----------



## mdocod

I'm just going to throw out some ideas and answers, but not in any particular order... 

If you're just trying to put together a M6 equivalent in the output department on the cheap, then just leave the stock switch alone and run an ROP high lamp on a pair of IMR18650s. It'll be very competitive with an M6 in total output and cheap to setup. Runtime would be almost 20 minutes. 

The 1111, and 64250 can be run on a pair of protected LiCo cells, but will flash on IMR cells. These are the highest power bulbs that can be reliably activated on AWs protected 18650s, anything more power demanding will just trip the PCBs high current limit. This setup is pretty close to 2C, close enough anyways. These options are considered some of the most balanced options as they give you the runtime advantage of the LiCo chemistry without pushing it to far, (they usually get 30+ minutes runtime), and the output has been said to be darn close to an MN21 on the stock CR123 pack. (close enough that you can't really see much difference)... 

The 64275 seems to be able to handle the IMR cells because of it's tremendously high operating current, which helps sag the voltage down enough to protect itself. Even though the 1111/64250 have similar flash points, they don't draw enough current to drag down the cells. If you are willing to install a KIU socket, you'll just need to use some very short stand-offs to get the socket down low, (possibly even flush with the top plate of the modified switch, not 100% sure on this)... It's certainly worth trying to see if you like the beam pattern, you may find that it has some neat advantages. It's like having a wall of light combined with a penetrating central beam all in one. The down-side to the 64275 is that it is not a very efficient bulb, I think the surface area of the filament design is lower than ideal for a bulb in this power class, which really hurts it. An 1185 properly driven can achieve similar lumen figures with substantially less overall power consumption. There is unfortunately no way to run an 1185 in a 2c mag while still achieving good runtime. (3xIMR16340 is an option, but it would be single digit runtime with rapid dimming after the first few minutes).... 

The 1274 and 1164 just don't quite hit the ballpark you are aiming for here I don't think. The 1274 is just not going to run as bright as you might want, if you are trying to make an M6 equivalent, and the 1164 really requires a higher voltage source to work with. It's normally used in 8 NIMH cell configurations. 

The bulb you are requesting, would be like the holy grail of bulbs, and I'm very sorry to say, that it just doesn't seem to exist. The 5761 is very close, but not quite there.... If you throw in a low value NTC rated ~5 amps and can find a good place to mount it, then the 2xIMR18650 into a 5761 becomes fairly reliable and possible. This setup has been done a few times around here with decent results. NTCs can be a tricky operation and may require ordering a few and experimenting. You want nice low operating resistance and a current rating as close to the bulbs operating current as possible so that it gets up to proper temperature to keep the running resistance low, otherwise it kills output. 

I have run the 5761 on a pair of partially discharged Emoli cells a few times, it is a nice bulb, produces a great beam, which is probably a result of it's nice filament design that isn't too long.....


One last thing, for a 2.2AH rated cell, "2C" is not automatically 4.4 amps. C ratings have more to do with time than they do with capacity or current. The capacity and current are a byproduct of the performance of the cell if discharged at a particular "C" rate. A 2C rate means 30 minutes, so whatever load the cell can deliver for a solid 30 minutes is the 2C maximum discharge rate. It's rarely the label capacity of a cell multiplied by 2, it's almost always going to be a little less... But keep in mind that the label capacity of cells varies, most are over-rated while some are slightly under-rated. Play it on the conservative side when in doubt. A 2C load for most 18650s cells is around 4 amps. 

Eric


----------



## lumenaddict

This guide is top notch - Thanks MDOCOD

Can you make a suggestion for a bulb that can be used (the brighter the better for a (3) - 18650 power source (could be AW IMR18650's) used with one of FM's d26 bi pin sockets?

cheers!


----------



## VegasF6

I haven't replied to this Eric because I am still taking it all in. When I do finally decide I will post an update. Need to try the ROP high I guess, I have tried it with the traditional LI-CO AW's and I can't get it to fire no matter how many clicks. I will go ahead and get the 64275 and another Kiu socket soon, gotta save up a few bucks. I think I am going to fiddle around with some MR16 bulbs too if I can find anything local. Probably won't be ideal, but they are so cheap to try. Not a lot of choices in the 6V range so it looks like I should have ordered 3 IMR's instead of two.

Thanks again for your guidance.


----------



## mdocod

lumenaddict said:


> This guide is top notch - Thanks MDOCOD
> 
> Can you make a suggestion for a bulb that can be used (the brighter the better for a (3) - 18650 power source (could be AW IMR18650's) used with one of FM's d26 bi pin sockets?
> 
> cheers!



Only bulb I am aware of that is designed to run on 3 li-ion cells in that socket is FMs axial filament 22W. I have no clue if it could handle 3 IMR18650 cells or not.


----------



## lumenaddict

MD - The axial 22W is what I have sitting in the D26 socket currently. It is being powered by 3 AW Li-ion cells, and its a _nice_ light. However, it would be a GREAT light if I could drop something closer to a 30W bulb in there. I've found bulbs that have compatible characteristics electrically, but they wouldn't drop into that socket.
Can anyone direct me to a Leef C to M adapter somewhere?

Thanks for your quick response earlier MD


----------



## mdocod

To go any higher you'll need the turbo setup. As I think you are realizing... but you don't necessarily need a C to M adapter, you can just use a KT2 or KT1 turbohead kit and FMs bi-pin to MN socket, then you can run the 1185, but keep in mind that this setup really pushes the bulb even on protected cells, It would probably flash every time on IMR18650s. It would be ideal to terminate the charge even on regular 18650s at ~4.10V instead of 4.20V to reduce the chance of insta-flashing the bulb.


----------



## Nite

softstarter time


----------



## Nite

Im very worried that as we push the cutting edge here at CPF with new technologies we may have some catastrophic failures this year related to safer IMR cells.

I am going to try using IMR 18650 cells and IMR lamps from LF. Also going to try two IMR 18650 with an MN21

I just found out when an IMR cell hits 60C or 140 F it fails. It can also rupture and leak toxic chemicals that destroy lights.

combine these with the 150$ dollar turbohead I just bought, and MN21 or any hi power lamp, the first cell behind the bulb is gonna get to 150degF FAST!

If only IMR cells had a temperature protection circuit..especially on a 18650

I think IMR maybe better suited for laptops and power tools but not right behind the heat of a 700 or 1000 Lumen bulb for more than few minutes in summer..this is only 42 degrees above body temperature.

I think short bursts of light in a metal body might work but if its an emergency..id rather have a liCo powered light.

the 16340 are cool though.

Im posting my concerns here because if theres anything you want to know about Lights or Cells this is the place.

I mean, im sure my 18650 Black LiCO cells get to 140 fast, like in a laptop battery.

Im very anxious to hear from others on this topic. Im not sure if this should be posted here or if I should start a new thread "IMR safety concerns"

Happy New Year.


----------



## mdocod

Links please  

I'd like to learn more on this if possible.

Eric


----------



## Rommul

mdocod said:


> Links please
> 
> I'd like to learn more on this if possible.
> 
> Eric



He's talking about AW's thread that gives the temp range on his cells

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=184887


----------



## lumenaddict

mdocod said:


> To go any higher you'll need the turbo setup. As I think you are realizing... but you don't necessarily need a C to M adapter, you can just use a KT2 or KT1 turbohead kit and FMs bi-pin to MN socket, then you can run the 1185, but keep in mind that this setup really pushes the bulb even on protected cells, It would probably flash every time on IMR18650s. It would be ideal to terminate the charge even on regular 18650s at ~4.10V instead of 4.20V to reduce the chance of insta-flashing the bulb.


 
MD - I've got the KT1 turbohead directing light being produced by the WA1185 and there's no insta-flash with the 3-AW IMR 18650's. _What_ there is is insta-*BADASSLIGHT*!! It seems to run strong for over 10 minutes)
The protected Li-ion cells had to be primed (bulb warm -up) to work with that bulb, because it draws too much current on inrush. But the IMR's are outstanding.
I thought I would put a SF M3 Bezel on the idintical set up to check out how the light gets dispursed off that reflector.

Cheers


----------



## DM51

lumenaddict said:


> I thought I would put a SF M3 Bezel on the idintical set up to check out how the light gets dispursed off that reflector.


You won't be able to fit a 1185 into an M3 bezel.


----------



## lumenaddict

DM51 said:


> You won't be able to fit a 1185 into an M3 bezel.


 
Uh... Thanks . That would have been an expensive mistake.


----------



## mdocod

Thanks for catching that one quickly DM51


----------



## lumenaddict

I set a pair of AW IMR 18650's up to run a SF MN21 to no avail -
I thought this would work - has anyone else tried this? No I didn't expect the run time to be very long, but...
Is this bulb too big a current load?


----------



## mdocod

It might have flashed the bulb... We've already had that reported. I've had luck driving the MN21 on Emoli brand cells, which may sag slightly more, and I always rest the cells for ~24 hours before using them on this bulb. 

There is no such thing as "too much load" within the bulbs available that you could run on a pair of 18650s that the IMR cells couldn't handle. I used a set of 6 Emoli cells (same chemistry) to jump start my car the other night. Use a multi-meter to check that the bulb is still in-tact, and check cell voltage. 

Eric


----------



## Nite

lumenaddict said:


> I set a pair of AW IMR 18650's up to run a SF MN21 to no avail -
> I thought this would work - has anyone else tried this? No I didn't expect the run time to be very long, but...
> Is this bulb too big a current load?



the MN21 isnt a LF IMR 1000

I agree it mustve instaflashed and u missed it. 

*this is why AW sells a Soft Starter. You should buy one..

What switch are you using...?* If you burned out a non twisty switch that also explains the failure if u didnt see a flash.

Theres no way a MN21 can take the sudden surge of two 18650 IMR cells. YOu can start a car with them
it was designed for Primary lithium CR123 which sag quickly.


----------



## mdocod

Nite said:


> Theres no way a MN21 can take the sudden surge of two 18650 IMR cells. YOu can start a car with them
> it was designed for Primary lithium CR123 which sag quickly.



Like I've said, My Emoli cells (the same ones I jumped the car with  ) have been running the MN21 for awhile now, no soft start, in an M6 with my battery adapter, which, has basically 0 resistance. I just always rest them, they pretty much always measure ~4.10V after 12-24 hours of resting and so far, this bulb has been fine. I have at least a couple hours on it so far. 

Eric


----------



## Nite

mdocod said:


> Like I've said, My Emoli cells (the same ones I jumped the car with  ) have been running the MN21 for awhile now, no soft start, in an M6 with my battery adapter, which, has basically 0 resistance. I just always rest them, they pretty much always measure ~4.10V after 12-24 hours of resting and so far, this bulb has been fine. I have at least a couple hours on it so far.
> 
> Eric



Awesome, that will save me 50 on a soft start if I can get away with it, but I dont know about a Z59, using a twisty>?

So a 37 watt lamp will handle it? i cant wait to get my Kt2 turbohead, battery junction still hasnt shipped my 12/25 order, they oversold the turbohead


----------



## VegasF6

mdocod said:


> Like I've said, My Emoli cells (the same ones I jumped the car with  ) have been running the MN21 for awhile now, no soft start, in an M6 with my battery adapter, which, has basically 0 resistance. I just always rest them, they pretty much always measure ~4.10V after 12-24 hours of resting and so far, this bulb has been fine. I have at least a couple hours on it so far.
> 
> Eric


 
Wow, did you literally jump a car with them? I know how much potential is in these cells, but to just think about it, vs actually seeing an example of it is probably kind of eye opening.

And I haven't looked at the M6 adapter yet, since I don't have one. Have you actually managed to achieve superconductor status??? :laughing:


----------



## Bimmerboy

mdocod said:


> I used a set of 6 Emoli cells (same chemistry) to jump start my car the other night.



Whoa! That's awesome!! 3S2P I assume? You could contract yourself out to AAA with those things.

"Hi, I'm Eric and I'm here to start your car"

"Where's your jump starter?"

*Holds up a Maglite*


----------



## mdocod

Keep in mind that Emoli and AW brand LiMn cells probably have slightly different behavior off the line. As far as the bunch of discharge tests that LuxLuthor did on a number of these cells, the Emoli brand are far from being the best performers. Other brands may be more prone to pop the MN21. 

-----------

VegasF6, Bimmerboy,

The full story on how I jumped the car with them can be found posted in the 2x18650 adapter sales thread... On of the lasts posts in that thread right now


----------



## lumenaddict

mdocod said:


> It might have flashed the bulb... We've already had that reported. I've had luck driving the MN21 on Emoli brand cells, which may sag slightly more, and I always rest the cells for ~24 hours before using them on this bulb.
> 
> There is no such thing as "too much load" within the bulbs available that you could run on a pair of 18650s that the IMR cells couldn't handle. I used a set of 6 Emoli cells (same chemistry) to jump start my car the other night. Use a multi-meter to check that the bulb is still in-tact, and check cell voltage.
> 
> Eric


 
You're right about the bulb... there's no continuity. The switch is fine though. 
I was so disappointed with the fact that there was no visible sign of a flash that I went out and jump started my car and... BOOOM!!!
Not really, but I'll keep your story in mind the next time the car's not crankin' over.

Thanks.


----------



## mdocod

I think it's safe to say at this point that AWs IMR cells can't be used to direct drive an MN21, several reports of insta-flash now.


----------



## Nite

mdocod said:


> I think it's safe to say at this point that AWs IMR cells can't be used to direct drive an MN21, several reports of insta-flash now.



Has anyone tried a soft starter in this config?

I bet it prevents failure.


----------



## Timson

Does anyone know whether 2 x AW'S IMR26500 will instaflash a Philips 5761 or might I just about get away with it ...:devil: (2 C Mag - FM Bi-Pin adapter - No resistance fixes).


Tim.


----------



## mdocod

Wit no resistance fixes you *might* get away with it..

My suggestion would be to let the cells rest ~8-12 hours to reduce the odds. In my experience, LiMn chemistry cells will settle from ~4.20V down to around 4.10V after that 8-12 hours resting. 

$5 bulb, it's worth a try.


----------



## jdriller

Say good bye to your 5761 if they are charged to 4.2v. (as he holds the remains of 3x5761)


----------



## LIGHTSMAD

just to add...do,nt try a FM1794 with freshly charged C cell's poof!!!!!


----------



## Nite

IMR 18500 have just come out and im wondering what are some uses for these cells?

I mean I use IMR 16340 ALOT for lights that normally use Lico large cells...

but other than LF IMR Lamps, what can I use IMR 18500 for? instead of liCO 18500

safer chemistry?

there is no PCB on IMR cells.

I posted a thread on this question but it was shut down im told this is where to post such questions and MD your best qualified to answer anyway.


----------



## Nite

MD, what do you think the runtime of 2x14500 and a P90 would be, I hope more than 30 minutes.

Is it true 14500 LiCO are better than RCR16340 LiCo?


----------



## Jay T

Nite said:


> IMR 18500 have just come out and im wondering what are some uses for these cells?



You can put them in flashlights.



Nite said:


> I mean I use IMR 16340 ALOT for lights that normally use Lico large cells...
> 
> but other than LF IMR Lamps, what can I use IMR 18500 for? instead of liCO 18500



You can run the P91, the FM 1794 or a WA1111, the same things you use the IMR16340s for, only with the IMR18500 the bulb will be a little brighter and run about twice as long.




Nite said:


> safer chemistry?
> 
> there is no PCB on IMR cells.
> I



The "Chemistry" is safer. 

Abuse the crap out a standard LI-Ion and try to recharge it. If you abuse it enough you might be able to get some self sustaining flames from it.

With the "Safer Chemistry" all you get is a dead cell, no chance of flame.


----------



## Nite

Jay T said:


> You can run the P91, the FM 1794 or a WA1111, the same things you use the IMR16340s for, only with the IMR18500 the bulb will be a little brighter and run about twice as long.



Thats my question! Why not switch to 18500 LiCo in this setup, it will run 33% longer!

(except for safety.....I see 18500 as a step down in power, but no smaller than another 18500 LiCo...)

however it will run twice as long as 16340 if you do care about using IMR for safety reasons.


----------



## Jay T

Nite said:


> Thats my question! Why not switch to 18500 LiCo in this setup, it will run 33% longer!
> 
> (except for safety.....I see 18500 as a step down in power, but no smaller than another 18500 LiCo...)
> 
> however it will run twice as long as 16340 if you do care about using IMR for safety reasons.



When you run the LiCo at a high load you will not get the full 1500 mAh from them. The voltage also drops giving you a dimmer light. Try to run a WA1111 of of two standard LiCos and they will fall flat on their face. You might get a longer runtime from th LiCo with a low drain bulb, but not with a high drain one.


----------



## Nite

Jay T said:


> When you run the LiCo at a high load you will not get the full 1500 mAh from them. The voltage also drops giving you a dimmer light. Try to run a WA1111 of of two standard LiCos and they will fall flat on their face. You might get a longer runtime from th LiCo with a low drain bulb, but not with a high drain one.



that explains why I can use those with lico 18500 without a soft start..

but wont two imr 18500 Fresh off the charger 4.19 volts each instaflash the fm1794?

i mean, without a soft start..because both imr and lico 18650 will...


----------



## Jay T

Nite said:


> that explains why I can use those with lico 18500 without a soft start..
> 
> but wont two imr 18500 Fresh off the charger 4.19 volts each instaflash the fm1794?
> 
> i mean, without a soft start..because both imr and lico 18650 will...



For the 1794 on two IMR18500 you are right on the border. Using two IMR18500 with a Surefire twisty I never had a problem. Then I played Lego and moved my McClickey over and poof. I thought it was a fluke and poofed another one.


----------



## ElectronGuru

Timson said:


> Does anyone know whether 2 x AW'S IMR26500 will instaflash a Philips 5761 or might I just about get away with it ...:devil: (2 C Mag - FM Bi-Pin adapter - No resistance fixes).
> 
> 
> Tim.







mdocod said:


> Wit no resistance fixes you *might* get away with it..
> 
> My suggestion would be to let the cells rest ~8-12 hours to reduce the odds. In my experience, LiMn chemistry cells will settle from ~4.20V down to around 4.10V after that 8-12 hours resting.
> 
> $5 bulb, it's worth a try.





I've been keeping a log of my 26500 testing. This is with stock bodies and freshly charged cells:

*2x - IMR26500* (7.4 - 8.4 volts)
3854 ROP Low - GOOD
3854 ROP High -  (0.2 under?)
3853 ROP Low - GOOD
3853 ROP High - GOOD
Philips 5761 -  (0.5 over)
WA 1111 -  (0.1 over)
WA 1274 - GOOD (9.1 limit)
Osram 64250 -  (0.3 over)
Osram 64275 -  (0.3 over)
Osram 64430 - GOOD (10.9 limit)


*3x - IMR26500* (11.1 - 12.6 volts)
WA 1331 -  (0.6 over)
WA 1185 -  (0.3 over) <- safe after 24hr rest
WA 1166 - GOOD (14.1 limit)



Comparing my results with mdocod's, 8.2 is still .3 over the 7.9 flash point for the 5761. Perhaps with more time...


----------



## mdocod

Nite said:


> IMR 18500 have just come out and im wondering what are some uses for these cells?
> 
> I mean I use IMR 16340 ALOT for lights that normally use Lico large cells...



The IMR16340 cell, since it lacks the wasted space of a PCB, and is such a small cell where a PCB displaces a large percentage of space, is actually on par capacity wise with many RCR123s. So in any case where you have a direct drive LED or incan where you can manually see the point where you need to kill the discharge to prevent over-discharge, the IMR16340 is a great replacement for an RCR123. 



> but other than LF IMR Lamps, what can I use IMR 18500 for? instead of liCO 18500



Depends on what results you are looking for. In a broad general sense, you can say that for 17500 cells and larger, IMR (LiMn) will have about 1/3rd less stored energy, however, will be able to safely deliver 2-3X the maximum safe discharge of the equivalent size LiCo cell.

Since the LiMn cell has lower internal resistance and no PCB to add additional resistance, some bulbs that work with protected LiCo cells are going to be closer to instaflashing on LiMn cells, especially bulbs that were already really having the **** pushed out of them...

Some people run the P91/MN11/MN16 for example, on a pair of protected 18650 cells. One can, for fun, drop down to a "2 cell" host and run any of those bulbs on a pair of IMR16340s just fine. Since the small 16340 size suffers plenty of voltage sag under the strenuous load, no new bulb related problems arise. However, replacing the protected 18650s with IMR18650s can translate to faster bulb failures, as that configuration was already hard on the lamp, the LiMn has just enough of an edge at this load to really increase the likelihood of popping the lamp.




> safer chemistry?



Not only safer, but theoretically should have better cycle life under strenuous loads. 



> there is no PCB on IMR cells.



Defeats the purpose of low resistance high current cells. If you have an application that falls within the safe boundaries of a protected LiCo cell then the LiCo may be the better way to go. Regulated LED lights especially IMO. 



> I posted a thread on this question but it was shut down im told this is where to post such questions and MD your best qualified to answer anyway.



You might have a run through AWs LiMn sales threads, the original, when he released the IMR16340s, was heavy with questions of "what why where and how" and I spent the first few weeks of that sales thread helping to answer questions right in the thread.


----------------




Nite said:


> MD, what do you think the runtime of 2x14500 and a P90 would be, I hope more than 30 minutes.
> 
> Is it true 14500 LiCO are better than RCR16340 LiCo?




14500s usually come closer to rated capacity than RCR123s. 

It would have to be a custom machined down body to be worth the smaller diameter cells, in that same length one can run 2x18500s....

Do you have a new body coming out/out already? hehe....

----------------




Jay T said:


> You can run the P91, the FM 1794 or a WA1111, the same things you use the IMR16340s for, only with the IMR18500 the bulb will be a little brighter and run about twice as long.



I think IMR18500s are likely to blow the 1794, possibly the P91, and possibly the 1111. 



--------------------




Nite said:


> Thats my question! Why not switch to 18500 LiCo in this setup, it will run 33% longer!
> 
> (except for safety.....I see 18500 as a step down in power, but no smaller than another 18500 LiCo...)
> 
> however it will run twice as long as 16340 if you do care about using IMR for safety reasons.



Protected LiCo 18500s shouldn't really be used to power up a 1111. In the case of the 1794 and P91, it's probably preferable to deal with the risk of the LiCo cell over the IMR18500 as the LiCo will have a natural voltage sag at these loads that would be less apt to pop the bulbs. The 1794 however is still going to be high risk either way. It's just a screaming bulb that was designed to be on the bitter edge from small cells. 

----------------------------------



ElectronGuru said:


> I've been keeping a log of my 26500 testing. This is with stock bodies and freshly charged cells:
> 
> *2x - IMR26500* (7.4 - 8.4 volts)
> 3854 ROP Low - GOOD


I think the low bulb was designed by pelican to have a lot more bulb life on the table as the backup bulb. We see it handle much more overdrive than the high as a result. 



> 3854 ROP High -  (0.2 under?)


I'm actually really surprised here, so many people have run this bulb on 7AA NIMH cells... Very revealing how much voltage sag they must really be getting across the system.


> 3853 ROP Low - ?
> 3853 ROP High - ?


The high might be worth looking into, it should have an extra ~1-2V of overhead in the design over the 3864.


> Philips 5761 -  (0.5 over)


Shame there isn't a really good way to drive these without all the fuss. Such a great filament shape and everything. I can run it off a pair of old Emoli cells if I rest em over night. 


> WA 1111 -  (0.1 over)


Poofed on my Emoli 18650s as well.... bleh


> WA 1274 - GOOD (9.1 limit)


Hows the CCT look?


> Osram 64250 -  (0.3 over)


Emoli 18650s poofed this one too.. bleh


> Osram 64275 -  (0.3 over)


Can't say I'm surprised, the 18650s drive the **** out of it... Oh well, not the most efficient bulb anyways right-


> Osram 64430 - GOOD (10.9 limit)
> 
> 
> *3x - IMR26500* (11.1 - 12.6 volts)
> WA 1331 -  (0.6 over)
> WA 1185 -  (0.3 over) <- safe after 24hr rest


You may find that more bulbs in that list above will survive after 24 hour cell rest. Especially the 3854H. 


> WA 1166 - GOOD (14.1 limit)
> 
> 
> Comparing my results with mdocod's, 8.2 is still .3 over the 7.9 flash point for the 5761. Perhaps with more time...



Thank You for your many bulb sacrifices! 

The trick is hoping that you have enough resistance in the switch, the spring, the bi-pin adapter, the contact from the bi-pin adapter to the switch tower, the contacts between cells, etc etc etc. C mags actually have lower resistance switches than D mags straight from the factory, and if it's a brand new flashlight then you have less oxidation on contacts than many people would. 

Sometimes there's enough resistance sometimes not.... 

I was chatting with a friend on the phone, few weeks ago he was trying out his new IMR18650s in some various leefbodies and such. He was able to drive the 1111 and 1185 on the new IMR18650s without insta-flashing. Probably because he's had those flashlight bodies and switches and everything for a couple years now, so there's just enough extra resistance. 

-Eric


----------



## Timson

Electronguru,

Useful numbers.....Thanks for sharing those test results. :twothumbs

That's saved me a few blown lamps. 


Tim.


----------



## DM51

Eric - thanks for that great post (#182). A wealth of useful tips there, and I for one have certainly learned some new info.


----------



## Jay T

mdocod said:


> I think IMR18500s are likely to blow the 1794, possibly the P91, and possibly the 1111.




In all my lego playing the only one of those I have blown is the 1794 on some IMR18500s. The others run just fine. 

All of my tailcaps are new and all have recieved a spray of Deoxit.

18650s






+1111 = no blow





+P91


----------



## ElectronGuru

Thanks Eric,



> I'm actually really surprised here, so many people have run this bulb on 7AA NIMH cells... Very revealing how much voltage sag they must really be getting across the system.
> 
> The trick is hoping that you have enough resistance in the switch, the spring, the bi-pin adapter, the contact from the bi-pin adapter to the switch tower, the contacts between cells, etc etc etc. C mags actually have lower resistance switches than D mags straight from the factory, and if it's a brand new flashlight then you have less oxidation on contacts than many people would.



Reminds me of my very first hotwire. An ancient 2D (no boring needed) running ROP high off 8AA (yes 8) eneloops in a Sandwich adaptor. There was so much oxidation, sometimes it felt as if it was creaking to life, but it it didn't pop. Until one day, it didn't not pop. It was as if the oxidation had "burned" off and the bulb was finally getting near spec levels of juice.




> The high might be worth looking into, it should have an extra ~1-2V of overhead in the design over the 3864.



Yup. I have a set on order and will report in after testing.




> Shame there isn't a really good way to drive these without all the fuss. Such a great filament shape and everything. I can run it off a pair of old Emoli cells if I rest em over night.



As noted, I got good results resting with the 1185, but the over limit volt difference is almost double with the 5761. Still, your experience is encouraging. I don't know how similar IMR's are to Emoli's, but if they are - we should be able to apply the same lessons.




> Hows the CCT look?



I'm working on a photographic technique to show color temperature. When ready, I'll add profiles for all my bulbs (and a few LEDs) to my incan guide.




> You may find that more bulbs in that list above will survive after 24 hour cell rest. Especially the 3854H.



This brings to mind a question: when cells rest, is any energy lost? Specifically, does a cell that is charged to 4.2v and rested to 4.1v have any more energy than a cell that is charged directly to 4.1v? Even so, how tough would it be to change the charging stop point to 4.1?




> Thank You for your many bulb sacrifices!



Sure, though it wasn't a grand plan. When the first one popped, I just had to see if the second one would, then the third. Before I new it, I had a small pile of glass trinkets. In some cases, I only had one example bulb, so I'll have to wait (rest!) before trying again.




> He was able to drive the 1111 and 1185 on the new IMR18650s without insta-flashing.



Frustrated with the battery life from 3xIMR16340, I swapped the 1185 for a 1331 and am super happy. I'm looking to do the same thing for 2xIMR16340. I have a 1274 on the way to replace the 1111.


:thanks:


----------



## mdocod

ElectronGuru said:


> I don't know how similar IMR's are to Emoli's, but if they are - we should be able to apply the same lessons.



Emoli cells are made by Molicel Canada. They were, as I understand it, the first to come to market with a viable LiMn cell. Which also means that they soaked up a lot of the R&D costs while most other manufactures piggy-backed on that design and had cash-flows remaining to improve on the design. So actually, many of the other brands of LiMn chemistry cells, including AWs, are of higher capacity and as good or better performing under a load. 

Molicel was the original implementer of the prefix "IMR" to define a LiMn cell. 

The Emoli cells I have were actually manufactured back in 2005! They still work quite good though, just probably not as good as AWs, which is actually a good thing, as they don't pop bulbs as easily. Probably why I am getting away with driving an MN21 off a pair of them rested and others are popping MN21s on AWs cells. 




> I'm working on a photographic technique to show color temperature. When ready, I'll add profiles for all my bulbs (and a few LEDs) to my incan guide.



Sweet 






> This brings to mind a question: when cells rest, is any energy lost? Specifically, does a cell that is charged to 4.2v and rested to 4.1v have any more energy than a cell that is charged directly to 4.1v? Even so, how tough would it be to change the charging stop point to 4.1?




I believe that the natural tendency for LiMn cells to settle to ~4.10V probably does represent a loss in stored energy. I am not sure how that would compare to a cell charged to 4.10V and then immediately discharged. Interesting question, might be a fun experiment for someone with precision battery discharge testing equipment to try out some day. 

Modifying an existing charger to have a lower termination voltage could be as simple as changing a passive component that tells the charge controlling IC what termination value to aim for. Such a modification would only work on some chargers and not on others. It's also theoretically possible to use some sort of diode on the output of the charger to have a voltage shunting effect.. However, this is getting into an arena that's a few hair-do's over my head. There are hobby chargers out there that have manual adjustable termination values for their li-ion charging algorithm, that would certainly be the easiest way to go about it. 


-Eric


----------



## Nite

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Nite
> MD, what do you think the runtime of 2x14500 and a P90 would be, I hope more than 30 minutes.
> 
> Is it true 14500 LiCO are better than RCR16340 LiCo?



MDOCOD


> 14500s usually come closer to rated capacity than RCR123s.
> 
> It would have to be a custom machined down body to be worth the smaller diameter cells, in that same length one can run 2x18500s....
> 
> Do you have a new body coming out/out already? hehe....




Well, MD, Since you asked Ill assume its safe to answer. Yes I am half sold out of a FiveMega 1,2,3xAA body SF C head host..with momentary built in clicky.
Its a special edition limited run, only thing ive done outside the standard FM 18mm bodies and extensions.

My OWN personal light that you are asking about. with a G3 nitrolon head...





You may have missed it as I know you dont hang out at CPFM where I just moved BTW, as much as you do here.lovecpf


----------



## Nite

thanks for taking the time to answer all those question from everyone MDCOD.:twothumbs


----------



## Nite

Safe to use?

A single 14500 with an LF EO-4
lovecpf


thanks


----------



## Jay T

:tsk:

A 14500 has a rated capacity of 750Mah.

The Max discharge for these cells is 2C.

2 X 750 = 1500.

Thus the Max currect draw is 1500mA or 1.5A.

From the Lumensfactory specs page the EO-4 draws 2.35A

So :tsk:


----------



## Nite

:mecry:
 I just killed an Unprotected but old...14500....

I wont trust it now....

was getting old anyway.


Must recycle it...


----------



## Nite

the single cell model should only use an LED?


----------



## Jay T

Nite said:


> the single cell model should only use an LED?



You might be able to use a Strion bulb in a FM bipin D26, HOWEVER, this bulb will draw 1.67A. Just a bit over 2C. 

So before concidering this you must go back to post one and read the paragraphs following "Lithium-Ion cells become more dangerous as they age."


Edit to add:

Not too sound mean, but, your questions are answered in post #1, please review the information there.


----------



## Nite

a good link I got from LuxLuthor

some info:
http://www.carleylamps.com/faq.htm

Mean Spherical Candlepower - MSCP (or CP candlepower for short) is the total light output of a lamp in all directions.
Foot Candles - Total light output of a lamp when the light is compressed by a lens or reflector. Foot candles is a "directional specific" light measurement.
Filament Temperature - The operating temperature of the filament measured in degrees kelvin.
Lumens = MSCP x 4. 1 MSCP=12.57 Lumens

thanks Lux

I read Post 1 all the time, but anyone know offhand whats the smallest cell a LF EO-4 Can use..1x18500?
sorry if answer is in the chart....Nevermind, found it. I was right, 1x18500: LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 120 - 67 lumen in 34 minutes


----------



## LuxLuthor

You're welcome. This was prompted from my trying to find out the actual specs on the FM1794 custom made Carley bulb which Nite is going to send me to test. He was told by FM that this bulb puts out 50 MSCP at 7.0V & 3A (21 Watt bulb).

As I added in my PM to you, their statement on that linked page is not accurate, regarding their equating MSCP to CP:


> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Mean Spherical Candlepower* - MSCP (or CP candlepower for short) is the total light output of a lamp in all directions.[/FONT]


Candlepower is only a cone shaped beam of light in one direction. Carley should know better than to make such an error. Once you measure the total light output in all directions (in an "Integrating Sphere"), that is also how "Lumens" are determined, so conversion between an accurately measured MSCP and Lumens is possible.

Again, I highly doubt that Carley would go to the expense for a custom order bulb to put it through an expensive, calibrated Integrating Sphere test to certify the MSCP (or lumen) rating. It was a number of these claims by various bulb manufacturers that prompted me to do the independent destructive testing comparisons.


----------



## mdocod

Nite said:


> the single cell model should only use an LED?



Not necessarily.... 

With an FM T1.5 bi-pin D26 adapter, there are a few options:

Carley 719, 1003, 724, or 723, all theoretically should work.


----------



## Nite

Confirmed...

Even with an AW soft Start switch in use....2x18500 IMR will flash an FM1794 as soon as 100% is activated!

I think I got that crazy Idea from JayT.

MDCOD was right!

Unless someone can tell me why I need IMR 18500 for anything but LF IMR bulbs I wanna know...

18500 IMR are a great substitute for 18650 IMR as they take up less space in my Cars EDC, a 1000 LF lamp.
However they are NOT a great substitute for IMR 16340 as they wont sag as much.

Man this post just cost me 10$

and I just sent 2x FM-1794 to LuxLuthor..my hobby grows more expensive by the day!

It will be worth it....Im sure many here including myself are aching to see the destructive incan tests run on those FM-1794..halogen..

thanks in advance, lux.


----------



## Jay T

Nite said:


> Confirmed...
> 
> Even with an AW soft Start switch in use....2x18500 IMR will flash an FM1794 as soon as 100% is activated!
> 
> I think I got that crazy Idea from JayT.



What was your voltage?
Were the cells hot off the charger, or did they sit a while?

It seems as if these cells act more like Nimh rather then LiIons and they relax a bit once you take them off of the charger. The way I charge my cells is I take them off the charger where they sit until I carry them to the where the flashlight is. I don't really need a bright flashlight at that exact moment so I don't sit there waiting for the light to go green. When I get around to loading the light it gets loaded. Could this be why some others are having trouble that I am not?

It would be nice if when someone blows a bulb they would post some real information about the voltage and the cells state of charge. 

I'm sure you have heard of a build called the mag85, it's a popular build traditionaly done with 9AAs. The thing is that a good build will blow the bulb hot off the charger. I blew several 1185s before I learned to take my time and not hurry. I'm sure that the total number of 1185s blown would fill a nice little box. Does that confirm that the Mag85 is a bad idea?

Here is a little video I just made featuring the IMR18500/1794/AW soft start combo and a 9 eneloop mag85. The eneloops just came off the charger and were still warm.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKAVoQn3170

Edit to add: Disclaimer - bulbs were slaughtered in the making of this video.


----------



## Nite

ahhh help

Advice needed

Just over-discharged a pair IMR 16340 while talking to FM, i didnt notice the time pass...

despite stepping down brightness on my soft start I got two imr 16340 down to, after a short 20 min rest..to measure 2.96 volts and 3.12 volts...before changing cells.

I am recharging them immediately.

do I have to trash them?
lovecpf

I want MDOCODs opinion on this, and Maybe AW as well.

FM said recharge them see if they come back..

im guessing they lost capacity but wont explode and are more tolerant to this kind of abuse.


----------



## mdocod

Nite said:


> ahhh help
> 
> Advice needed
> 
> Just over-discharged a pair IMR 16340 while talking to FM, i didnt notice the time pass...
> 
> despite stepping down brightness on my soft start I got two imr 16340 down to, after a short 20 min rest..to measure 2.96 volts and 3.12 volts...before changing cells.
> 
> I am recharging them immediately.
> 
> do I have to trash them?
> lovecpf
> 
> I want MDOCODs opinion on this, and Maybe AW as well.
> 
> FM said recharge them see if they come back..
> 
> im guessing they lost capacity but wont explode and are more tolerant to this kind of abuse.



They'll come back and probably work just fine. Don't trash em, they are safe chemistry and can handle some abuse without a major issue.

If you had say, left them in a flashlight turned on over-night, then they may have taken a very noticeable hit the next day. 

See if they hold voltage and work pretty good, there's no significant danger in giving it a try. 

For the record, the Emoli brand LiMn cells that I pulled from an "ebayed" Ryobi pack, were all under 2V per cell when I received the pack, and who knows how long they had been that way, they all charged up and perform right up with LuxLuthors results from his comparison test. This is the same chemistry as AWs IMR cells. 

-Eric


----------



## AW

They should charge up fine with no capacity loss if they haven't stayed this low for long. Nothing bad will happen on charging them. They are *safe chemistry* after all.


----------



## Nite

AW said:


> They should charge up fine with no capacity loss if they haven't stayed this low for long. Nothing bad will happen on charging them. They are *safe chemistry* after all.





mdocod said:


> They'll come back and probably work just fine. Don't trash em, they are safe chemistry and can handle some abuse without a major issue.
> 
> If you had say, left them in a flashlight turned on over-night, then they may have taken a very noticeable hit the next day.
> 
> See if they hold voltage and work pretty good, there's no significant danger in giving it a try.
> 
> For the record, the Emoli brand LiMn cells that I pulled from an "ebayed" Ryobi pack, were all under 2V per cell when I received the pack, and who knows how long they had been that way, they all charged up and perform right up with LuxLuthors results from his comparison test. This is the same chemistry as AWs IMR cells.
> 
> -Eric



wow thanks you two!

just saved me 12$ or so,....


----------



## Nite

Jay T said:


> I blew several 1185s before I learned to take my time and not hurry. I'm sure that the total number of 1185s blown would fill a nice little box. Does that confirm that the Mag85 is a bad idea?



it only confirms that Not taking your time will result in a boxful of blown bulbs...

this I can confirm myself from experience. Touching a bulb during install unknowingly, or breaking it in two while pressing hard inserting it...or blowing it on two unprotected IMR 18500s are good examples of not thinking things thru.

In my opinion, 2x Protected 18500 LiCo AW cells are a better choice for a FM-1794 than a pair if Unprotected IMR 18500.

(both setups MAYBE fresh off charger and Definitely using soft start)

Several reasons.
Better runtime!
Black label lico have 33% more energy density than their IMR counterparts.
In this case the Supply from two LiCo cells is more than enough to not require IMR chemistry.
Yes, IMR is safer, but LiCo cells, PROTECTED ONES, prevent abuse of the cells and make a catastrophic failure highly unlikely unless your cells are over 3, 4 years old, damaged, etc.
Just tonight I over discharged a pair of IMR cells..it seems they will be fine, Another few minutes at 3 amps and I think theydve died for sure.

If theydve been unprotected lico idve trashed them.

good thing the light dimmed alot at 3 volts per cell

No protection circuit means less resistance, shorter length and less cost.

I wouldnt mind paying more money for a Low resistance, Hi current Protection circuit for IMR cells...my imaginary IMR PCBs would cutoff at hi and low voltages like normal AW cells, but also if temperatures got too high., like a surefire primary. However theyd reset just like all AW protected cells.

oh well, AW, FM, Myself, we cant make everything everyone can dream up to ask for.

(I can try):twothumbs
lovecpf


----------



## Nite

*I just realized*

a Mag85 is just a 3 C or D cell maglite modified to run a WA 1185?

Oh man im so glad I got a surefire G2 then G3 to get away from my huge maglite

why run an 1185 in a huge 3 D mag when u can do it in a SF 9P/FM2x18650

those things run on eneloops and stuff right? I wonder how much longer the runtime is....

talk about different form factors!

you can now add a WA1185 to your 2x18650 Lux, by adding fivemegas G4 sunlight for D26. It holds an 1185 in a SF head which you now have.

isnt this discussion/realization worthy of a new thread?

I am officially scared to start new threads after being berated by moderators who didnt think them worthy topics for discussion.


----------



## Nite

Question for MD

I see a trend in the charts..when using high power cells like IMR 18650 Hi power ulbs like P91, FM1794 some MN SF bulbs, will flash, but many non IMR lamps, like LF< and others, will last along time

is this because the hi power lamps let all the power through fromt he cells no matter if its 8C rate and they flash? while the lower power Lamp assemblies wont flash because they use some kind of resistor to draw less power from whatever source. 

this includes I guess, something like a LF EO 3 Destroying an unprotected 14500 cell, no resistor for low current draw....

two scenarios for disaster? Perhaps related perhaps not...but I can drop a lower power lamp in and get more runtime on hi power cells that would flash a hi power lamp?

so I can carry a spare lamp or led that will work with anything D26 I have....


----------



## ^^Nova^^

The lamp filament itself is the "resistor" that you are talking about. The problem (if you can call it that) with the IMR cells is their voltage does not sag as much under load as the LiCo cells. This means the bulbs receive a higher voltage with IMR than LiCo and hence blow. 

This is only a problem with bulbs that are near "the edge" anyway. The lower powered ones tend not to be so close to flashing at the same voltage levels as the higher powered bulbs.

I am sure someone else can explain it better.

Cheers,
Nova


----------



## mdocod

The bulbs in those "high power" categories just happen to be bulbs that are getting driven a lot harder in these configurations for various reasons all combined....

Easiest example to explain is the P91..

If you are designing a lamp with a 2.5A load for use with 3xCR123 primary cells, you would do some discharge tests and realize pretty quickly that the lamp you will be designing will be operating primarily in the ~6-6.6V range. The cells pretty much immediately fall on their face into the ~2-2.2V per cell range. So you design the lamp to run acceptably "hard" at that drive level. SF chose a ~30hr lamp life.

Take the same lamp, drive it on a pair of IMR18650s, they will start at ~8V (4V per cell) into this load due to their insanely low internal resistance. 30hr bulb life is diminished to ~1-5 hours on paper, which is all insta-flash range. 

The 1794 was probably just designed to really get the most out of more compact configurations. It burns with authority on a pair of IMR16340s. Building a bulb that runs strong on really small cells while still surviving big cells is pretty much impossible, it'll always be a tradeoff. 

----

Now lets look at why those low power bulbs don't have a problem with IMR cells..

Say you are designing a bulb that runs in the ~1-1.5A range for 3xCR123s. You'll again, check the discharge behavior of the cells, and go to work. Now we see we have ~2.5V per cell to work with on average, with initial peaks ~3V. So we have to design a bulb that runs decent at ~7.5V but can handle a few moments at almost 9V on those CR123s. At this drain level, the set of 3xCR123s more closely matches the discharge rate of a pair of large li-ion (LiCo or LiMN) cells. So the bulbs designed for these configurations run similarly on both.


----------



## ElectronGuru

I decided to risk another bulb to see just how crazy IMRs are. I completely charged a trio of 26500's, let them rest overnight, then topped them off, charging all again in rapid succession. Then I put them in a 3C with a WA 1166. 

, despite a full 1.5v safety margin. Poof-mazing!


----------



## lctorana

ElectronGuru said:


> I decided to risk another bulb to see just how crazy IMRs are. I completely charged a trio of 26500's, let them rest overnight, then topped them off, charging all again in rapid succession. Then I put them in a 3C with a WA 1166.
> 
> , despite a full 1.5v safety margin. Poof-mazing!


Not amazing.

There is a very, very important point at stake here.

The LuxLuthor flashpoints are achieved with a gradual ramp-up of voltage. Capability of cold bulbs to handle the shock of voltage from cold is much less.


----------



## Nite

lctorana said:


> Not amazing.
> 
> There is a very, very important point at stake here.
> 
> The LuxLuthor flashpoints are achieved with a gradual ramp-up of voltage. Capability of cold bulbs to handle the shock of voltage from cold is much less.



I agree, use of an AW type soft starter in any light including all of mine wouldve prevented that poof..also if youdve not topped them off ..those huge cells...then it wouldve been a good real world test.

can you do it again with rested cells?

It might not blow you know...even fully charged when rested..if the margin is that great..plus itd be greater with rested cells..


still he is right about the cold and hot filament resistance..another reason to use a soft starter....


----------



## ElectronGuru

Sorry for the confusion. 

The 1166 did NOT poof under normal hot-off-the charger direct drive testing (see post 181). I deliberately pushed the boundaries to see if it could be blown. Yea, weird, I know :duh2:


----------



## Nite

what kind of runtime can I get from 3x Sanyo eneloops and a strion bulb?

thanks

a single 14500 was giving me more than 32 minutes appx


----------



## fivemega

Nite said:


> what kind of runtime can I get from 3x Sanyo eneloops and a strion bulb?


*3 Sanyo Eneloops will overdrive the Strion bulb and will run just over an hour.*




Nite said:


> a single 14500 was giving me more than 32 minutes appx


*Strion bulb will be slightly underdriven in this set up and current draw is lower than spec.
I prefer 3 Eneloops rather than single 14500
Single IMR 16340 (or larger) is a good set up too.*


----------



## Nite

i gotta thank DM51 

i didnt realize i was destroying my AAA lion cells when charging them on the WF 139 at 450mah and even worse on the pila at 600mah

they couldve exploded..i was so hung up on safe discharge rates I FORGOT ABOUT SAFE RECHARGE.

do I throw them away?

Man I keep throwing out unprotected cells, first for exceeding safe discharge on 14500 unprotected..

and now for exceeding safe charging rate on AAA 10440

if they havent exploded...theyve been damaged enough to dispose of? its for my keychain fenix...the bright three stage 45$ unit.

this cell was also discharged to 3.10 volts, then recharged at 600 or 450 mah a few times.

Maybe I should use disposables in that, or buy a nano charger.

opinions?


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Been using the H1499 in my FM 2X18650 TL3 light, an amazing improvement over the stock TL3 bulb. Do you think that it is pumping out more than 255 lumens, top end, your figure for 2X17500 in the TL3? Am using LiCo 18650's.

Bill


----------



## mdocod

Bullzeyebill said:


> Been using the H1499 in my FM 2X18650 TL3 light, an amazing improvement over the stock TL3 bulb. Do you think that it is pumping out more than 255 lumens, top end, your figure for 2X17500 in the TL3? Am using LiCo 18650's.
> 
> Bill



Yea, it's likely brighter, maybe around 300+ give or take  

They're just numbers, don't fret em too much! It's the beam shape that is often the defining factor for how well a particular configurations performs for a particular application. 

I'll take a lower powered incan on a "turbo" or "mini-turbo" head over a high power incan stuffed in a D26 module any day. Incan applications have shifted almost entirely to out-door only. So we can go back to boasting about throw IMO! I'll bet that TL-3 reaches out and touches stuff better than any D26 module you can buy. 

-Eric


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Yes, for its size the H1499 in the FM 18650 TL3 is awesome. Has a sort of vertical/horizontal beam which I thought was "bad" till I used it walking the streets. The light turned so the beam is vertical give a great throw down the path, and is actually better than a so called "round beam" for this purpose. Good color too, nice and white.

Bill


----------



## JCD

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.*

Under D26 options, the runtimes for 1x 17670 and 1x IMR16340 are identical for each respective bulb option. Is that correct?



mdocod said:


> D26 configurations:
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Cell Configuration: 1xIMR16340
> 
> Bulb Options:
> LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 106 - 69 lumen in 49 minutes
> G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minutes
> WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 114 - 69 lumen in 42 minutes
> LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 122 - 70 lumen in 37 minutes
> G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minut
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Cell configuration: 1x17670
> 
> Bulb Options:
> LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 106 - 69 lumen in 49 minutes
> G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minutes
> WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 114 - 69 lumen in 42 minutes
> LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 122 - 70 lumen in 37 minutes
> G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minutes
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## cernobila

The capacity of these two cells is way different, there must be a mistake here somewhere?!?


----------



## mdocod

That's a mistake, good catch. 

The run-times on the single IMR16340 should be about 1/3rd of that which is listed. 

When I was building the charts, and updating, I would often copy/paste sections and just go in and edit the numbers, apparently, I missed one. Woops!

Eric


----------



## JCD

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*



mdocod said:


> If anyone can think of ANY information you would like to see in this guide, I would really like to include it.



I would be very interested to see LiFePO4 cells added, since they are high current, but low voltage. In particular, I'm wondering if they will work in applications in which IMR16340 cells work, but 16340 LiCo cells will not. It would be great if I could run these with my P91 in Surefire 2 cell hosts. Thanks.


----------



## Nite

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*



JCD said:


> I would be very interested to see LiFePO4 cells added, since they are high current, but low voltage. In particular, I'm wondering if they will work in applications in which IMR16340 cells work, but 16340 LiCo cells will not. It would be great if I could run these with my P91 in Surefire 2 cell hosts. Thanks.




NO you cant...

LIFEPO4 have 1/3rd less energy than LiCO. SO do IMR16340, but the Discharge rate of IMR 16340 is fantastic.


----------



## Nite

Hey MD when are you going to update the guides? there so much more stuff to put in there now!
:twothumbs
lovecpf


----------



## JCD

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*



Nite said:


> NO you cant...
> 
> LIFEPO4 have 1/3rd less energy than LiCO. SO do IMR16340, but the Discharge rate of IMR 16340 is fantastic.



Can I ask where you found that information? As I understand, the maximum safe discharge rate (relative to cell capacity) of LiFePO4 cells is as high or higher than with LiMn cells. AW posted tests of his LiFePO4 cells being discharged at rates up to 10 C (5 A) in this post.


----------



## Nite

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*



JCD said:


> Can I ask where you found that information? As I understand, the maximum safe discharge rate (relative to cell capacity) of LiFePO4 cells is as high or higher than with LiMn cells. AW posted tests of his LiFePO4 cells being discharged at rates up to 10 C (5 A) in this post.



I may have been mistaken I had no idea, or forgot that LiFEPO4 had a discharge rate comparable to LIMR.

I wonder why it wasn't used more widely like IMR is now, in so many more sizes.

wow that link is from 4yrs ago no wonder i missed it. 

I wonder why Lifepo4 wont burn out my GFs LED but an IMR will. less voltage sag?


----------



## JCD

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*



Nite said:


> I wonder why Lifepo4 wont burn out my GFs LED but an IMR will. less voltage sag?



Perhaps it's due to the lower voltage of the LiFePO4 cells compared to the IMR cells?


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*

While lithium iron phosphate, and especially the lithium nano iron phosphate cells are typically good for very high current applications, The 16340 size cells in this chemistry really haven't proven to be anything special. They can handle heavy loads safely but they are not as low resistance per volume as their larger counterparts. 

From what I have seen, most of them take a complete nose dive above 2 amps. 

----

As for running a P91 on them: You could run 2 and get maybe an average 150 torch lumen for maybe 6 minutes. Or you could run 3 and likely pop the bulb off a fresh charge. There just aren't any common tactical lamps I am aware of that are going to work properly on any configuration of LiFePO4 cells.

The IMR16340s are amazing by comparison, competent to loads exceeding 3 amps and higher voltage than LiFePO4. In fact, when dealing with high power applications, the IMR16340s actually catch up to and exceed the energy density of CR123 primary cells. 

When we look at larger cells, like 18650 and up in LiFePO4 chemistry, the picture starts to get more interesting. If we pair them up to the proper bi-pin lamps, or regulate them somehow, they are often capable of loads of 10-20C and higher with very little sag and capacity loss. Not to mention, remarkable cycle life even when operated at aggressive charge and discharge rates. 

----



Nite said:


> Hey MD when are you going to update the guides?



Good question, I guess it's one of those things that I will have to get to when I get to, lol... Lots of new information I would love to include in both the guide and chart sections. I may actually just make a completely new thread, considering how much has changed in the years since it was originally written. 

Eric


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## Nite

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*



JCD said:


> Perhaps it's due to the lower voltage of the LiFePO4 cells compared to the IMR cells?



Yes. that was it.:thumbsup:


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## qandeel

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*

Eric

This is a great thread. I really learned a lot from it. Many thanks for the great efforts and the time dedicated to create this useful guide.




mdocod said:


> Good question, I guess it's one of those things that I will have to get to when I get to, lol... Lots of new information I would love to include in both the guide and chart sections. I may actually just make a completely new thread, considering how much has changed in the years since it was originally written.
> 
> Eric


 
Is their a new thread already? If there is any, please kindly provide the link.

Thanks


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## mdocod

*Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide*

Hi qandeel,

No new thread, sorry 

Maybe this winter if I get "stuck" in front of the computer for a few days waiting for a blizzard to pass I'll spend some time on that. 

Eric


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## Roger999

Are the AW Lico protected cell runtimes until the protection circuit kicks in?


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## S&W

*I'm new to the flashlight world and I was wondering if Ultrafire 3.6V 880mah Protected Li-Ion Rechargeable Batteries would be good with a 4Sevens Quark 123² tactical flaslight with the R2 emmiter. The head is rated at 9.0v Max and I want to know if these are good or if there are better ones to use. Thanks
*


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## mdocod

Roger999 said:


> Are the AW Lico protected cell runtimes until the protection circuit kicks in?



Everything is an on-paper estimate. It's rough, it's a ballpark. 

When the protection circuit on protected LiCo cell trips, the cell is depleted. 

The runtime estimates are based on the estimated usable capacity of the cell/s, or until the cell/s is/are depleted. 

Eric


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## mdocod

S&W said:


> *I'm new to the flashlight world and I was wondering if Ultrafire 3.6V 880mah Protected Li-Ion Rechargeable Batteries would be good with a 4Sevens Quark 123² tactical flaslight with the R2 emmiter. The head is rated at 9.0v Max and I want to know if these are good or if there are better ones to use. Thanks
> *



Hi S&W,

Welcome to CPF!

Head over to the Electronics/Batteries part of the forum. There you will find dozens of threads aimed at comparing modern RCR123 cells. The quark should work fine on just about any of them, but a little research before the buy would be worth it. 

Keep in mind, that regardless of what the label says, all RCR123s are ~500-650mAH.

Best of luck in your search. 

Eric


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## roadie

still love this thread ..... 

both a good readup comparsion for both regulars and newbies ....

enjoy "D


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## computernut

roadie said:


> still love this thread .....
> 
> both a good readup comparsion for both regulars and newbies ....
> 
> enjoy "D


 
Ya, I refer to it all the time, great thread! lovecpf


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## recDNA

So SF P91 with 2 x AW protected 18500 is a good combo for the bulb and the batteries?


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## Nite

recDNA said:


> So SF P91 with 2 x AW protected 18500 is a good combo for the bulb and the batteries?



That would be awesome! It was my first 9Volt tactical.. I used it to deter would be muggers.
That will greatly overdrive the bulb, giving 500-700 lumens? The bulb would blacken quickly. last alot less than 25 hours

You might prefer a WA 1111 or a FM 1794 with those two cells for more brightness and longer bulb life. they will last what seems like months of normal use. One is halogen the other xenon

check Luxluthors destructive incandescent bulb tests

search for threads started by luxluthor


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## Bullzeyebill

Nite said:


> You might prefer a WA 1111 or a FM 1794 with those two cells for more brightness and longer bulb life. they will last what seems like months of normal use. One is halogen the other xenon



I am thinking that the FM 1794 has a mix of Halogen added to the Xenon. Am I wrong here?

Bill


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## Nite

Bullzeyebill said:


> I am thinking that the FM 1794 has a mix of Halogen added to the Xenon. Am I wrong here?
> 
> Bill



I think you are right Bill. The 1794 has a Halogen fill point, but Its not 100% pure halogen. I think you may be right about the mix. There is enough halogen to prevent blackening of the bulb, which is why halogen is used.

Metal burning off the filament redeposits itself on the filament, not the glass walls of the bulb. Making the bulb last longer, and stay bright white for its lifetime, unlike Xenon only.


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## recDNA

Nite said:


> That would be awesome! It was my first 9Volt tactical.. I used it to deter would be muggers.
> That will greatly overdrive the bulb, giving 500-700 lumens? The bulb would blacken quickly. last alot less than 25 hours
> 
> You might prefer a WA 1111 or a FM 1794 with those two cells for more brightness and longer bulb life. they will last what seems like months of normal use. One is halogen the other xenon
> 
> check Luxluthors destructive incandescent bulb tests
> 
> search for threads started by luxluthor


 
I don't want to bother with set screws and bipin bulbs. I like buying the bulb and reflector all assembled and ready to go. I'm willing to sacrifice lumens and bulb life for convenience. If the WA 1111 or FM 1794 were sold on a website where I could use a charge card (I have no Paypal) and if they came already assembled with the right reflector for $30 I'd certainly try them.

"The bulb would blacken quickly. last alot less than 25 hours "

That was precisely the question I was asking. If 2 X 18500 does that it is an unsatisfactory set up. I won't do it. Another poster told me 2 X 18500 was ideal.

I looked at Luxluthor's thread but I couldn't understand it. Mdcod's thread seemed to indicate that 2 X 18500 was good with the P91


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## Nite

recDNA said:


> I don't want to bother with set screws and bipin bulbs. I like buying the bulb and reflector all assembled and ready to go. I'm willing to sacrifice lumens and bulb life for convenience. If the WA 1111 or FM 1794 were sold on a website where I could use a charge card (I have no Paypal) and if they came already assembled with the right reflector for $30 I'd certainly try them.
> 
> "The bulb would blacken quickly. last alot less than 25 hours "
> 
> That was precisely the question I was asking. If 2 X 18500 does that it is an unsatisfactory set up. I won't do it. Another poster told me 2 X 18500 was ideal.
> 
> I looked at Luxluthor's thread but I couldn't understand it. Mdcod's thread seemed to indicate that 2 X 18500 was good with the P91



Yes the SF P91 will be fantastic at about 320 lumens...

If you want a drop in just as easy as SF P91, I also suggest Lumens factory drop ins. they are better suited to this task and will last longer. they are designed for this voltage while the Surefire is not.

to quote MDCOD


> *Cell configuration: 2x18500*
> 
> Bulb Options:
> LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 116 - 76 lumen in 94 minutes
> LF D26 SR-9: 10W, 162 - 105 lumen in 65 minutes
> LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 217 - 139 lumen in 51 minutes
> *LF D26 EO-9: 15.5W, 272 - 171 lumen in 39 minutes*
> SF P90: 9.5W, 153 - 98 lumen in 67 minutes
> *SF P91: 20W, 320 - 170 lumen in 28 minutes*



LF is lumens factory available from many sources. the Bulb Will last MUCH longer than a P91, the EO-9 almost as bright. Perhaps 4 times as many hours runtime. Maybe more.

But yes try the P91 if you already have one, at 320 lumens with 2x18500 you'll be amazed.

(Not economical to use that bulb it will blacken fast. Its expensive that P91.)

you can also use two IMR 16340

THe LF bulbs are designed for that voltage, the surefire is not. But there's nothing like trying the P91 with that setup..while not "ideal" it is awesome and worth trying for 10 hours.

(Im sorry, while you can buy a 1794 installed in a socket already, that merchant does not yet take credit cards.)


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## recDNA

I already have the P91 with 2 X IMR16340. I just wanted to increase runtime but not at the expense of bulb life. 

Will the bulb last longer with 2 X 16340 or 2 X 18500?


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## mdocod

The chart is off by a fair margin for the SF HOLAs (It was a best estimate at the time), recent testing shows these to be ~400+ torch lumen on fresh cells. 

I have been using a pair of AW protected 18500s lately with an MN16 and really enjoying it. So far no bulb failure. (MN16 and P91 use either the same bulb or very similar bulbs). 

Eric


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## ryan28801

Wow. It was nice of you for taking the time to put this together. I need to keep reading, but so far it is very informative!!

Many Thanks!


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## Nite

ryan28801 said:


> Wow. It was nice of you for taking the time to put this together. I need to keep reading, but so far it is very informative!!
> 
> Many Thanks!



Yes thanks again to you MDOCOD for writing this article. Its an invaluable reference for me.:thanks: I refer to this thread as my Incandescent flashlight bible.. I also read this thread often.

It's sticky status is well deserved.:thumbsup:



recDNA said:


> I already have the P91 with 2 X IMR16340. I just wanted to increase runtime but not at the expense of bulb life.
> 
> Will the bulb last longer with 2 X 16340 or 2 X 18500?



It will last (runtime) at least three times longer with 18500 (1500mah) over 16340(550). Lico cells have 1/3 more capacity than IMR, and the 18500 about double in Size and capacity compared to a 16340 LiCo cell. The IMR will run at a lower voltage faster than large LiCo cells
The bulb life will not be much different. If you like what you see with 2x16340, you just see that for longer per charge. Since the voltage is slightly higher with 2x18500 over the run compared to 16340, the bulb life will be just slightly less. but the difference is so minor its hard to say.
lovecpf
Basically if I remember what MDOCOD taught me, the Voltage will sag less on the larger 18500 LiCo cells than with the two little IMR 16340..so it will stay brighter, for longer.... You also get alot more runtime with just a little less bulb life. However youd have to recharge 3 times as often to save that little bit of bulb life. 

Its an awesome setup only because your overdriving the bulb.:devil: However that 400+ lumen overdrive means alot less bulb life than 25 hours at 120 Lumens on 3volt CR123 disposable primary SF cells. Ironic isn't it? If you want max bulb life, dont use any 2 rechargeable Lithium ion cells at 8.2 volts. Two 4.2 volt Rechargeable cells run at a higher voltage than three 3volt primary disposable CR123 SF cells.

Its a trade I would, and have, made.

You get so much more runtime that any additional small loss of bulb life would be well worth it to me. 

I would guess you can recharge the 18500s about 3 dozen times before killing the P91. 

Maybe 20 hours bulb life instead of 25? By the time the bulb is ready to burn out it will be very black anyway, with any batteries. Thats the one reason I don't like Xenon bulbs as much as halogen. They blacken before the bulb filament gives out..I always replace P90 and P91s before they die on their own anyway,

these are just guesstimates, but I can't be that far off.

The shorter answer is, more bulb life, slightly more, with two little IMR because their voltage sags quickly under that huge load. But if your going to overdrive the bulb, do it with two 18500 Black lico AW cells.:devil: The longest bulb life would be with 3 Primary surefire cells, but that'd be no fun at all. You've already lost 90% of the bulb life your sacrificing anyway (maybe 15 instead of 25 hours) by switching to 2 Rechargeables, so go all the way I say. It wont be physically that much bigger but it will run much longer. Same size as a 9P again

:welcome:


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## flashfiend

Other than the Strion, do any of you know of a bulb that will work on one Li-Ion that fits in a G4 socket or T1.5 socket? Anything better than the Strion in that regard?


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## flashfiend

flashfiend said:


> Other than the Strion, do any of you know of a bulb that will work on one Li-Ion that fits in a G4 socket or T1.5 socket? Anything better than the Strion in that regard?



Any suggestions at all? I'm guessing there is nothing better than the Strion at this point.


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## skillet

You, know I still find myself coming back to this thread time after time... A must read and often at that!!!








Ahhhhh... My poor post count... Must have the stomach bug... It's falling off to nuttin'


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## Kestrel

skillet said:


> You, know I still find myself coming back to this thread time after time... A must read and often at that!!!


I agree 100%. If everybody read this thread, we'd get a lot less thread repeats of 'what rechargeables should I use for ...'


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## Sam Z

Thank you for this thread it is very helpful *tagged for reference*


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## Norm

Sam Z said:


> Thank you for this thread it is very helpful *tagged for reference*


You can subscribe to a thread using the *"Thread Tools"* drop down just above the first post on this page - Norm


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## Flashiphiliac

At just under 6yrs old this thread is still a great source of info.
It had the answer to which e1e upgrade bulb I can use with an rcr123 and a bunch of other stuff I didn't even know I wanted to know.
Thanks for putting all this info together. It is well worth the time it takes to read.


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## Nite

I don't understand something. I just don't get it. "Batteries in serial connection will add voltage, NOT amperage. " I know batteries in series increases voltage but don't get why I don't have amperage spread out over multiple serial cells. Is it because amperage is pulled from each cell equally? I know this a math question, math is not my strong suit.

So after hearing from Moddoo and FiveMega I have two questions.

Moddoo: "Our "H" triples actually deliver a total of 4.65A total to the 3 LEDs when run from 2 cells.
Without getting too technical, they will not demand more than 3A per cell in any configuration."

I guess I should ask for the technical answer!

1: If a drop in pulls 4.65 amps but wont draw more than 3amps from any one cell, (making it safe for 1 or 2x18500 lico) why is that? Boost driver? 

When asking if I can switch chemistry:

FiveMega: " AW's protected 18650 34P can NOT deliver spike of 1909
1909 is a 5.5 Amp lamp with spike of over 12 Amps.
Batteries in serial connection will add voltage, NOT amperage. "

2: Can I use 3x AW 18650 3400P to drive a 1909 because 3x 3.4amps is 20.4 amps! ?




PS: MD. have you seen this? http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...Li-Ion-batteries-vs-recent-fires&goto=newpost


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## skillet

I've been running a MN-15 wit 2X18650 for sometime and just purchased a 3X17670.. This thread should be required reading for any flashaholic so I thought it deserved a bump!!


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## Kestrel

skillet said:


> I've been running a MN-15 wit 2X18650 for sometime and just purchased a 3X17670.. This thread should be required reading for any flashaholic so I thought it deserved a bump!!


+1, this thread is one of the two that started me down the CPF rabbit hole, lol.


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## archimedes

skillet said:


> ....This thread should be required reading for any flashaholic so I thought it deserved a bump!!



Wow, I can't believe that I never saw this thread before ... 



Kestrel said:


> +1, this thread is one of the two that started me down the CPF rabbit hole, lol.



What was the other one ... ?


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## Kestrel

archimedes said:


> [...] What was the other one ... ?


SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 1) & SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)




archimedes said:


> Wow, I can't believe that I never saw this thread before ...



Although this thread is cited in the "Threads of Interest" sticky in the */Incan/* subforum, I have just made it a sticky by itself.


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## archimedes

Yes, that M6 thread was great too.


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## skillet

Seemed to be some renewed interest on the incan front.. Still mighty pleasing to the eyes just like this thread.


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## Greenbean

Loved that M6 rechargeable thread, had be yearn and get my own M6, FM adapter and WA1185! 

Then I went a step further... 

To this day I keep an FM bi-pin with a WA1185 in a KT4 head on a 3x18650 HA body with ready cells for duty in the yard. 

Such a sweet sweet incan!


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## YAK-28

have not seen this in awhile.


----------

