# Eneloops now being made in China!



## Power Me Up (May 26, 2014)

Has anyone else heard that Panasonic is moving production of Eneloops to China?

Current reports state that they're still using the same product codes and rated for the same number of cycles but that they may not be using the same design and hence may not be as good as the Japanese made Eneloops.

Looks like the Chinese made Eneloops are currently destined for Asia/Oceana but Japan and Europe will still get the Japanese made cells. Australia is normally included in "Oceana" so I guess we'll start seeing the Chinese version here eventually 

If anyone is able to get their hands on some Chinese Eneloops, please let me know - I'd like to do some cycle testing to compare them to the Japanese Eneloops ASAP!


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## Mr Floppy (May 26, 2014)

Oh man, I hope the quality doesn't slip. Otherwise, I'll seek out the Fujitsu ones.


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## ChrisGarrett (May 26, 2014)

Mr Floppy said:


> Oh man, I hope the quality doesn't slip. Otherwise, I'll seek out the Fujitsu ones.



Go to HKJ's recent review of the Fujitsu AAs. I asked about them and somebody said that they're made in the same factory as Eneloops, so...

Chris


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## Mr Floppy (May 26, 2014)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Go to HKJ's recent review of the Fujitsu AAs. I asked about them and somebody said that they're made in the same factory as Eneloops, so...



so they cost a bit more unfortunately but will get them over Panasonic should quality be any different.

I'll it put down to Panasonic moving closer to the rare earth metal source but keeping an ear out otherwise.


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## Power Me Up (May 26, 2014)

Mr Floppy said:


> I'll it put down to Panasonic moving closer to the rare earth metal source but keeping an ear out otherwise.



I think that it's also to improve their profits by making them in a factory that they own. Cheaper labour and reductions in quality testing and materials would also improve profits - I'm hopeful that won't be the case but I'm not counting on it! :sigh:


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## ChibiM (May 27, 2014)

There is a thread about this on another flashlight forum..probably the place where power me up got it from..
Search with Google for eneloop gets a make over, dated April 2013..


Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk


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## Poppy (May 27, 2014)

I guess I am confused. I thought eneloops were Sanyo, not Panasonic, and I am not clear on Duracell rechargeables (Duraloops).
Will duraloops still be made in Japan even if eneloops are not?


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## HKJ (May 27, 2014)

Poppy said:


> I guess I am confused. I thought eneloops were Sanyo, not Panasonic



Panasonic bought Sanyo some time ago.


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## ChibiM (May 27, 2014)

The ones made in China seem to have a 65% capacity left after 5 years, instead of the 70% cells made in Japan.
I`ve searched quite a bit on the net, but can`t find them for sale!


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## ChibiM (May 27, 2014)

Also.. they don`t seem to be on the market yet...so I don`t think we have to panic (yet). As long as I can get Made in Japan eneloops here, I`m satisfied..


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## mcnair55 (May 27, 2014)

Nothing new in any company setting up in China,many companies do this to make a cheaper product to sell to developing companies.I know one particular truck maker who makes a lower spec truck to sell to developing nations.

Does not bother me in the least where they are made,why should it?


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## välineurheilija (May 27, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Nothing new in any company setting up in China,many companies do this to make a cheaper product to sell to developing companies.I know one particular truck maker who makes a lower spec truck to sell to developing nations.
> 
> Does not bother me in the least where they are made,why should it?


Does not bother me neither as long as QUALITYCONTROL.


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## mcnair55 (May 27, 2014)

välineurheilija said:


> Does not bother me neither as long as QUALITYCONTROL.



And we know Panasonic will not sell an inferior product as they a have brand name to think about.:thumbsup:


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## ven (May 27, 2014)

If its Panasonic its Panasonic and as mr mcnair states they have their brand at stake.I really dont see any risk if the Panasonic factory was in China/Japan or Timbuktu as long as its a Panasonic factory.They will have to have set quality standards to meet where ever they are produced.

To add fenix,armytek,nitecore to name just 3(many many more) are made in china,very advanced technology ,so personally i dont see it as a negative.........just my opinion:thumbsup:


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## TinderBox (UK) (May 27, 2014)

Also the new china made Enloops AA are 4800mah 

John.


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## ven (May 27, 2014)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Also the new china made Enloops AA are 4800mah
> 
> John.




:laughing: so they are getting more realistic then


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## Power Me Up (May 27, 2014)

ven said:


> If its Panasonic its Panasonic and as mr mcnair states they have their brand at stake.I really dont see any risk if the Panasonic factory was in China/Japan or Timbuktu as long as its a Panasonic factory.They will have to have set quality standards to meet where ever they are produced.



My concern isn't so much that production is moving to China as such (although I do have concerns for the people there that are given poor work conditions, it applies equally to everything else made in China and not all companies end up treating their workers like slaves - hopefully Panasonic won't be doing that)

The bigger concern that I have is if the quality is reduced. Despite the expectations to the contrary above, reports are that the cells aren't the same - Panasonic apparently doesn't actually own the technology used to make Eneloops, so if that's the case, even with the best of intentions, it's quite possible that they won't be able to produce a cell that is good on their own production lines.

In the end, by far, the vast majority of consumers don't have the ability (or inclination) to properly test the batteries that they buy. If the Chinese made 2100 cycle Eneloops only give (say) 70% of the cycles of the Japanese made Eneloops, the most consumers would never notice the difference. If the Chinese cells were priced cheaper and were rated properly compared to the Japanese cells, then I wouldn't see a major problem with it, but I do object to paying the same amount of money for an inferior product. Unfortunately, it appears that they're going to be priced the same and use exactly the same product code, which I think is a bit underhanded.

Maybe the reports are wrong and the Chinese cells will be just as good as the Japanese cells - I hope that will be the case, but I'd really like to get my hands on some of the Chinese cells so that I can test them properly and compare them to the Japanese cells!


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## mcnair55 (May 28, 2014)

Power Me Up said:


> My concern isn't so much that production is moving to China as such (although I do have concerns for the people there that are given poor work conditions, it applies equally to everything else made in China and not all companies end up treating their workers like slaves - hopefully Panasonic won't be doing that)
> 
> The bigger concern that I have is if the quality is reduced. Despite the expectations to the contrary above, reports are that the cells aren't the same - Panasonic apparently doesn't actually own the technology used to make Eneloops, so if that's the case, even with the best of intentions, it's quite possible that they won't be able to produce a cell that is good on their own production lines.
> 
> ...



Personally i see this as you making a mountain out of a mole hill.If you are so concerned why not write to Panasonic and state your concerns.As Panasonic now own Eneloop please qualify how Panasonic do not own the technology.


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## TinderBox (UK) (May 28, 2014)

Was it not Uniross that developed the first low-discharge ni-mh battery`s i think i remember reading it somewhere, there must be an hundred different brands of low-discharge ni-mh out now, how much better are enloop?

John.


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## shelm (May 28, 2014)

Power Me Up said:


> Looks like the Chinese made Eneloops are currently destined for Asia/Oceana but Japan and Europe will still get the Japanese made cells. Australia is normally included in "Oceana" so I guess we'll start seeing the Chinese version here eventually



What happened in the USA?


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## mcnair55 (May 28, 2014)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Was it not Uniross that developed the first low-discharge ni-mh battery`s i think i remember reading it somewhere, there must be an hundred different brands of low-discharge ni-mh out now, how much better are enloop?
> 
> John.



If Uniross were the first they were terribly slow coming to market in the UK with them as they are widely available normally.I am not even sure if Eneloop are better than other makes.My first ever Eneloop type purchased is a brand called "Instants" and still going strong after 9 years of use.

ps this was written on cpf in 2008.

Anyone got opinions on these Vapex "Instant" batteries? They're a lot cheaper than Eneloops (in the UK, anyway). I just tested a pack of each on my LaCrosse charger, and they actually exceed their capacities - the 850 AAAs came in at 900 and the 2100 AAs came in at 2150.

But I'm wondering if their current supply capabilities and "lastability" are as good as the Eneloops.

I'm tempted to stock up on them - the AAAs are a particularly good deal - but don't want to do that and then later wish I'd waited for a deal on Eneloops.


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## ven (May 28, 2014)

Yes i have mr macnair and still have some cells,not impressed tbh and cant compare to my eneloop.

They are silver body with a green label on,iirc 2500mah but dont hold charge or the 12 i had dont hold charge very well.End up in toy remotes etc for the kids and slap on charge when required.

I have their 8 bay charger that has been spot on though




So eneloops i recommend no question mr mcnair,careful searching can find them for not that much more and they do hold charge and perform great!!!

The vapex silver were purchased around 18months back,they may have improved.............may not,once bitten forever............

Check amazon or even one day shop for eneloops,some good deals:twothumbs


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## ven (May 28, 2014)

Too add the eneloop 1900-2000mah out last the 2500mah vapex too,not tested but as a comparison 1000mah would be closer to a comparison in performance...............(no test done,just how it appears to me regarding performance):thumbsup:


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## ven (May 28, 2014)

vapex+eneloop great results


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## mcnair55 (May 28, 2014)

ven said:


> Yes i have mr macnair and still have some cells,not impressed tbh and cant compare to my eneloop.
> 
> They are silver body with a green label on,iirc 2500mah but dont hold charge or the 12 i had dont hold charge very well.End up in toy remotes etc for the kids and slap on charge when required.
> 
> ...




Seems i have had great fortune with Instants then,i have more of these than any other brand.In 2014 though i would not be buying them as Eneloop can be bought cheaper. Evolta from Muppets inc are really good when they have a proper sale price.I am dying to try Tesco own label but at £7.50 for 4 will wait till they are on offer,missed a deal there recently as they were doing 4 batts and a charger for a silly amount but rack was sold out.


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## Mr Floppy (May 28, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> As Panasonic now own Eneloop please qualify how Panasonic do not own the technology.



They don't own the plant that churned out the Eneloop cell. That is apparently a Fujitsu plant that Sanyo used. I'm sure there are lots of things at play here but another one could be that Fujitsu has their own cell and are forcing Panasonic out on their own. Whether Panasonic can replicate the exact manufacturing that produced the Eneloop is the question. The thing about the quality of the LSD battery is precision in the manufacturing of the separator that gives these cells their LSD properties.


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## mcnair55 (May 29, 2014)

Mr Floppy said:


> They don't own the plant that churned out the Eneloop cell. That is apparently a Fujitsu plant that Sanyo used. I'm sure there are lots of things at play here but another one could be that Fujitsu has their own cell and are forcing Panasonic out on their own. Whether Panasonic can replicate the exact manufacturing that produced the Eneloop is the question. The thing about the quality of the LSD battery is precision in the manufacturing of the separator that gives these cells their LSD properties.



Mr Floppy that did not answer my question,new owners does not mean a new process.


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## mikekoz (May 29, 2014)

ChibiM said:


> The ones made in China seem to have a 65% capacity left after 5 years, instead of the 70% cells made in Japan.
> I`ve searched quite a bit on the net, but can`t find them for sale!



If that is the case, then for all practical purposes, there is no difference in quality between the two. A 5% difference over 5 years is not significant nor would it be noticeable. Also, most of the cells I have now will be lost and forgotten 5 years from now anyway as I will have moved on to better technologies. I have always liked Panasonic products and I think they will continue to put out a good product.


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## mcnair55 (May 29, 2014)

mikekoz said:


> If that is the case, then for all practical purposes, there is no difference in quality between the two. A 5% difference over 5 years is not significant nor would it be noticeable. Also, most of the cells I have now will be lost and forgotten 5 years from now anyway as I will have moved on to better technologies. I have always liked Panasonic products and I think they will continue to put out a good product.



+1 on what Mr Mikekoz has said,common sense answer.


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## ChibiM (May 29, 2014)

I sure hope in 5 years we will have moved to better technologie.. but if you look at eneloops history... 2005, now is 2014.. 9 years, and the standard eneloops are still highly praised. so I only can hope we will see 3000mAh in a few years from now.


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## 18650 (May 29, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> +1 on what Mr Mikekoz has said,common sense answer.


 You two talk as if long term self discharge is the only characteristic that set them apart from the competition.


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## mcnair55 (May 29, 2014)

18650 said:


> You two talk as if long term self discharge is the only characteristic that set them apart from the competition.




Your reply makes no sense to me what so ever.I really have no clue what on earth you are talking about.I thought the thread was about Eneloop being made in China.:thinking:


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## P Steinmetz (May 29, 2014)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Was it not Uniross that developed the first low-discharge ni-mh battery`s i think i remember reading it somewhere, there must be an hundred different brands of low-discharge ni-mh out now, how much better are enloop?
> 
> John.



Does Uniross actually make batteries? I thought they sourced from other factories.

Pete Steinmetz


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## mcnair55 (May 29, 2014)

P Steinmetz said:


> Does Uniross actually make batteries? I thought they sourced from other factories.
> 
> Pete Steinmetz



"We design, manufacture and distribute standard and dedicated rechargeable batteries "


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## Poppy (May 29, 2014)

Poppy said:


> I guess I am confused. I thought eneloops were Sanyo, not Panasonic, and I am not clear on Duracell rechargeables (Duraloops).
> Will duraloops still be made in Japan even if eneloops are not?





HKJ said:


> Panasonic bought Sanyo some time ago.



HKJ, thanks for the response.
So what is it that Duracell did that improved their quality so much that they are equivalent to eneloops? (I thought that Duracell bought out Sanyo, or at least the right to use their technology)


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## Mr Floppy (May 29, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Mr Floppy that did not answer my question,new owners does not mean a new process.



Which question? About Panasonic owning the technology? That was answered by PowerMeUp. 

They own the Eneloop brand, which means when they took over Sanyo, they took over the division that oversees the development of the Eneloop brand. It would be nice to think that it would be status quo but if they moved manufacturing to China they golly me that's a change in the process is it not? It would be nice to think that they will have a clone of the Fujitsu facilities if they move to China but who knows. 

What some of us are afraid of is this process changing in some way. If they were really wanting to reduce costs, they could just buy a Chinese plant knocking out LSD cells for Aldi or Ikea and slap Eneloop on them. We don't know but I'm sure they wouldn't want to lose the people from the Eneloop team if they did that. 

I do think that Panasonic will try and keep the quality up. They have been in the battery business for a while and will give them the benefit of the doubt.


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## Frijid (May 29, 2014)

FWIW, at one time made in japan was known to be junk, and now it's known to be high quality. china CAN make good stuff, it's just if you want to pay for it. But still, i'd rather my hard earned money go to an honorable country (japan) than to a socialist/communist country (china.) I try to stick by a few guidelines of countries to buy stuff made in. USA, Japan, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, and Russia. There are a few things made in china that I've seen that were good, believe it or not, one of which is guns made by the chinese manufacture, norinco.


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## Mr Floppy (May 29, 2014)

Frijid said:


> FWIW, at one time made in japan was known to be junk, and now it's known to be high quality. china CAN make good stuff,



I think we can leave the political and nationalism aside in this issue. The issue is Panasonic and how they are changing the way Eneloops are being made after a good proven process. If they were switching operations to Australia (does anyone equate Australia with manufacturing?) I would still be concerned. It is the change that some of us is concerned about. We don't like change, especially if it is detrimental


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## Power Me Up (May 30, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Your reply makes no sense to me what so ever.I really have no clue what on earth you are talking about.I thought the thread was about Eneloop being made in China.:thinking:



Have you ever considered exposing your ignorance in a less condescending manner?

There are quite a few other things about Eneloops which make them better than most other brands of rechargeables:



Excellent cell to cell consistency in capacity.
Excellent cell to cell consistency in self discharge rates.
Low internal resistance.
Their ability to handle a lot of abuse with little or no degradation in performance.

All of the above are independent from the quoted self discharge rate. Items 1 and 2 mean that the cells are less likely to be mismatched which reduces the likelihood of one cell in a set being reverse charged which in turn improves overall cycle life of the set. 65% remaining capacity after 5 years instead of 70% isn't a big deal in itself, but if 65% is actually an average and some cells will be at 60% whilst others are at 70%, then that would be a bigger deal - not that there is any evidence that this is likely to be the case though. Item 3 is important for anything that draws high currents from its batteries. Item 4 should be fairly self explanatory.


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## Monocrom (May 30, 2014)

Mr Floppy said:


> Oh man, I hope the quality doesn't slip. Otherwise, I'll seek out the Fujitsu ones.



Let's see, what normally happens when a company based in America decides to have its products made in China?....

Yeah, the quality is going to suck worse than you're even imagining.


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## mcnair55 (May 30, 2014)

Mr Floppy said:


> Which question? About Panasonic owning the technology? That was answered by PowerMeUp.
> 
> They own the Eneloop brand, which means when they took over Sanyo, they took over the division that oversees the development of the Eneloop brand. It would be nice to think that it would be status quo but if they moved manufacturing to China they golly me that's a change in the process is it not? It would be nice to think that they will have a clone of the Fujitsu facilities if they move to China but who knows.
> 
> ...



Moving plants/new owners does not change the process in any way what so ever.They will have a proper blue print to work to to ensure quality control all the way to the finished product.If they want to make a lower spec product to open up markets to developing countries again that is nothing new at all and many household names do the same.Most auto bulbs are now made in China no matter what the brand name on the packet is.The business world is just a global village.The UK now is one of the worlds largest exporters of motor vehicles but hardly any are British owned.Many famous German everyday used electrical items are made in foreign lands and the list goes on.



Power Me Up said:


> Have you ever considered exposing your ignorance in a less condescending manner?
> 
> There are quite a few other things about Eneloops which make them better than most other brands of rechargeables:
> 
> ...



Excuse me chappy who is dissing the Eneloop product,i thought this thread was about the product will be made in China.


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## Power Me Up (May 30, 2014)

Monocrom said:


> Let's see, what normally happens when a company based in America decides to have its products made in China?....



Panasonic is actually a Japanese company, but I understand what you're meaning regardless.



> Yeah, the quality is going to suck worse than you're even imagining.



Hopefully that's not going to be the case, but I don't think that it can be argued that moving production to China isn't a cost cutting exercise. It just remains to be seen how far the cost cutting measures go. Like others, I've never had a serious problem with Panasonic products in the past, so I'm at least hopeful that they'll try their best to keep the quality the same.


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## välineurheilija (May 30, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Excuse me chappy who is dissing the Eneloop product,i thought this thread was about the product will be made in China.



How is he/she dissing Eneloop?


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## mcnair55 (May 30, 2014)

välineurheilija said:


> How is he/she dissing Eneloop?



That is what i wanted to know as well,no one on the thread is dissing the product but some members are merely expressing a concern over the product being made in China.


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## Viking (May 30, 2014)

Not so long ago there was a story in the news about quite a few danish companies that had moved the production to china ( and other low-wage countries in the east ) and back home again. 
In spite of local danish supervising the quality couldn't live up to expectations.

I saw a similar story in 60 minutes about an american company sometime ago.
Collectors of hand-built Italian modelcars have complained in large numbers over declining quality after the production moved to China etc. etc. etc. etc.
The stories are many. 

Some companies ( including brand names) live with the declining quality others do not.
Somme don't experience quality problems at all.

The bottom line is we don't know what impact this will have.


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## RoGuE_StreaK (May 30, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Moving plants/new owners does not change the process in any way what so ever.


Have you actually been reading this thread?


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## mcnair55 (May 30, 2014)

RoGuE_StreaK said:


> Have you actually been reading this thread?



Of course i have been reading this thread and your point is?


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## Poppy (May 30, 2014)

Power Me Up said:


> Have you ever considered exposing your ignorance in a less condescending manner?





RoGuE_StreaK said:


> Have you actually been reading this thread?



I've been following this thread, and REALLY don't understand WHY you are jumping on mcnair55. The thread is about concerns that Panasonic may be moving production of eneloops to China. He has taken the position that moving production to China, in and of itself, does NOT necessarily mean that quality will change. We all know that he is right; although, we can site other instances when quality has decreased. Those instances are anecdotal, and until the production has moved, and the products can be examined, over time, all the saber rattling is just that. 

Let's keep it fun.


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## mcnair55 (May 30, 2014)

Poppy said:


> I've been following this thread, and REALLY don't understand WHY you are jumping on mcnair55. The thread is about concerns that Panasonic may be moving production of eneloops to China. He has taken the position that moving production to China, in and of itself, does NOT necessarily mean that quality will change. We all know that he is right; although, we can site other instances when quality has decreased. Those instances are anecdotal, and until the production has moved, and the products can be examined, over time, all the saber rattling is just that.
> 
> Let's keep it fun.




Thank you Mr Poppy that indeed is my stance and i am pleased that you understood.


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## Etsu (May 30, 2014)

I see this as very bad news. I would still see it as bad news, regardless of where the manufacturing was moved, whether it was Germany, U.S., or China. Whenever you move manufacturing, you lose a lot of the expertise that has been learned over the years at your existing plants. This will inevitably mean a loss of quality, at least for a couple of years until the new plant comes up to speed.

There's also a cultural aspect to quality. I do believe the Japanese have a greater sense of pride when it comes to quality than the Chinese. That doesn't mean that China can't make quality stuff, but the QA people will have to work harder at ensuring it. The QA staff may not be prepared for such a change.

I expect we'll see a drop in the quality of the Eneloop brand. It may not be noticeable until several years from now, when the cells start getting older. Right now, I can buy some Eneloops and expect them to still be good 10 years from now. After the manufacturing relocation, I don't think I'll have the same confidence. I may just switch to buying Duraloops.


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## eaglemax (May 30, 2014)

Etsu said:


> I see this as very bad news. I would still see it as bad news, regardless of where the manufacturing was moved, whether it was Germany, U.S., or China. Whenever you move manufacturing, you lose a lot of the expertise that has been learned over the years at your existing plants. This will inevitably mean a loss of quality, at least for a couple of years until the new plant comes up to speed.
> 
> There's also a cultural aspect to quality. I do believe the Japanese have a greater sense of pride when it comes to quality than the Chinese. That doesn't mean that China can't make quality stuff, but the QA people will have to work harder at ensuring it. The QA staff may not be prepared for such a change.
> 
> I expect we'll see a drop in the quality of the Eneloop brand. It may not be noticeable until several years from now, when the cells start getting older. Right now, I can buy some Eneloops and expect them to still be good 10 years from now. After the manufacturing relocation, I don't think I'll have the same confidence. I may just switch to buying Duraloops.




Hello Etsu man,
You are unfair to China mans,they make good things. I am in work in GB and big boss man says I good worker and says he wish he had 20 more as me. Mans in China like better money and quick learn to be best.


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## fridgemagnet (May 30, 2014)

When the axe falls, I'll probably switch to 14500's.
China vs. Japan qualitywise... it's a no-brainer.


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## Poppy (May 30, 2014)

When I was a kid (a few years ago) friends of mine worked maintenance at a factory that among other things made points and condensers for car engines. Most of the process was automated. The products were packaged for Sears, and other high end retailers, and they were also packaged for Pep Boys, and other discount retailers. Any of the condensers that were slightly discolored were tossed in the discount bins, and the shiny ones stayed in the high end bins. Electrically they were the same. Usually there weren't enough discolored ones to fill the orders for the discount brands, so they also got shiny ones.

While I agree that there MAY be cultural differences regarding pride in workmanship and QC, I suspect that most of the manufacturing of batteries is automated. With small runs, for small companies, that MAY be an issue, however, large companies, like Panasonic can certainly have a full time, or many full time Corporate employees oversee QC.

Here in the US, especially in my State of New Jersey, we once had a large textile industry. Unfortunately most of the business has gone overseas to Korea. There wasn't enough profit to replace the old but functional embroidery equipment with new computerized equipment, and despite additional shipping costs, the Korean companies with new equipment could outproduce, and underbid.

Certainly batteries produced in a new plant will be made with new, automated, and computerized equipment.

Time will tell, if they are as good, better or worse.


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## 18650 (May 30, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Moving plants/new owners does not change the process in any way what so ever.They will have a proper blue print to work to to ensure quality control all the way to the finished product.If they want to make a lower spec product to open up markets to developing countries again that is nothing new at all and many household names do the same.Most auto bulbs are now made in China no matter what the brand name on the packet is.The business world is just a global village.The UK now is one of the worlds largest exporters of motor vehicles but hardly any are British owned.Many famous German everyday used electrical items are made in foreign lands and the list goes on.


 "What so ever" unless you know of course Panasonic (and formerly Sanyo) didn't own the patents for the specific implementation of previous generation Eneloops and were simply sourcing or licensing it from the same OEM as a few other companies.


Poppy said:


> I've been following this thread, and REALLY don't understand WHY you are jumping on mcnair55. The thread is about concerns that Panasonic may be moving production of eneloops to China. He has taken the position that moving production to China, in and of itself, does NOT necessarily mean that quality will change. We all know that he is right; although, we can site other instances when quality has decreased. Those instances are anecdotal, and until the production has moved, and the products can be examined, over time, all the saber rattling is just that. Let's keep it fun.


 Specs have already changed which tells you it's a different battery.


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## mcnair55 (May 30, 2014)

18650 said:


> "What so ever" unless you know of course Panasonic (and formerly Sanyo) didn't own the patents for the specific implementation of previous generation Eneloops and were simply sourcing or licensing it from the same OEM as a few other companies. Specs have already changed which tells you it's a different battery.



It does not make any difference what so ever that Panasonic/Sanyo did not own the patents but manufactured under licence,i think we all agree that Eneloop are amongst the very best out there if not the best.I believe the initial idea came from the automotive industry.

Specs may well have changed but have they changed to sell to developing countries where a lower price would guarantee future orders.Once side by side usage has been organised it is just the normal past time of armchair science.


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## Poppy (May 30, 2014)

Perhaps they have expiring patents?



> *How long does patent protection last?*
> 
> For applications filed on or after June 8, 1995, *utility* and *plant* patents are granted for a term which begins with the date of the *grant* and usually ends 20 years from the date you first applied for the patent subject to the payment of appropriate maintenance fees for a utility patent. There are no maintenance fees for plant patents . *Design* patents last 14 years from the date you are granted the patent. No maintenance fees are required for design patents.
> Note: Patents in force on June 8, 1995 and patents issued thereafter on applications filed prior to June 8, 1995 automatically have a term that is the greater of the twenty year term discussed above or seventeen years from the patent grant.





> *NiMH EV Batteries Held Hostage Until 2014*
> 
> Written by Ken Green Burridge on 10 November 2013
> 
> ...


----------



## Poppy (May 30, 2014)

18650, 
Since your post was directed to me...


18650 said:


> Specs have already changed which tells you it's a different battery.


I'd like to respectfully disagree with your statement, unless you have additional information, than what has been presented in this thread. Many of the posts in this thread are conjecture, so I have included the ones that seem to support your position.


Power Me Up said:


> Has anyone else heard that Panasonic is moving production of Eneloops to China?
> 
> Current reports state that they're still using the *same product codes* and rated for the *same number of cycles* but that they *may not be using the same design* and hence may not be as good as the Japanese made Eneloops.


*may not be using the same design*, is NOT a statement of fact, but rather is simply a possibility, any opinion based on the above statement has to be challenged, or called into question.



ChibiM said:


> There is a thread about this on another flashlight forum..probably the place where power me up got it from..
> Search with Google for eneloop gets a make over, dated April 2013..


I did the search and found a thread where all of the images were deleted. Posts within that thread suggest that the WRAPPER was changed, and that perhaps the name eneloop was not carried forward.



ChibiM said:


> The ones made in China *seem to have* a 65% capacity left after 5 years, instead of the 70% cells made in Japan.
> I`ve searched quite a bit on the net, but can`t find them for sale!


Seem to have... Is this a statement of fact? Or a guess? idk, but I certainly can't base an opinion on such a vague statement.



ChibiM said:


> Also.. they don`t seem to be on the market yet...so I don`t think we have to panic (yet). As long as I can get Made in Japan eneloops here, I`m satisfied..


They aren't on the market, and apparently there are no independent reviews. I don't know if it is true that they are using the same product code, and listing the same number of cycles, but it has been presented as such.

Therefore I haven't seen anything that backs up your statement that the specs have been changed.

Do you have specs to support your statement? If so, that would be great. Otherwise, like others I'm hoping that the eneloops remain as is, or are actually made better.


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## Viking (May 31, 2014)

Reading that other thread , it is obvious to me it is now Fujitsu that in fact has the know-how in manufacturing the eneloop brand.
I will be surprised if the newly released "made in China" eneloops turns out to be as good as the Fujitsu cells and made in Japan eneloops. 
Panasonic won't get any help or knowledge from FDK/fujitsu in implementing the production process and manufacturing.

This is not a normal relocation of production abroad , and shouldn't be mistaken as such.


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## mcnair55 (May 31, 2014)

Viking said:


> Reading that other thread , it is obvious to me it is now Fujitsu that in fact has the know-how in manufacturing the eneloop brand.
> I will be surprised if the newly released "made in China" eneloops turns out to be as good as the Fujitsu cells and made in Japan eneloops.
> Panasonic won't get any help or knowledge from FDK/fujitsu in implementing the production process and manufacturing.
> 
> This is not a normal relocation of production abroad , and shouldn't be mistaken as such.



I really think you are out of your knowledge depth here as regards business contracts.To make such a bold statement on a public forum in a suing culture we live in is foolhardy.

I quote you.

Panasonic won't get any help or knowledge from FDK/fujitsu in implementing the production process and manufacturing.


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## Power Me Up (May 31, 2014)

Poppy said:


> I did the search and found a thread where all of the images were deleted. Posts within that thread suggest that the WRAPPER was changed, and that perhaps the name eneloop was not carried forward.



Did you read all of that thread? The relevant discussion doesn't start until page 3...


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## Poppy (May 31, 2014)

Power Me Up said:


> Did you read all of that thread? The relevant discussion doesn't start until page 3...



OMG... 113 posts, and 105 of them jabberish 

From what I gather (although not spelled out, so I may be wrong)
Panasonic owns the technology, (patents) and brand name eneloop. They obtained them when they bought out Sanyo.
They sold the FACTORY in Japan (the one that was used by Sanyo to make eneloops) to FDK, and apparently FDK, under contract, makes eneloops for Panasonic.

According to the lead poster in that thread, he obtained and tested, 4 cells from China, and although the capacities are good, they are not as consistent as eneloops he tested from Japan. He is in the process of running them through charge discharge cycles to see how well they hold up.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 1, 2014)

Mr Floppy said:


> I think we can leave the political and nationalism aside in this issue. The issue is Panasonic and how they are changing the way Eneloops are being made after a good proven process.



That post pretty much speaks to the premise of this thread. The issue is, are there differences in quality now that Eneloop's are being made by Panasonic. Differences in quality that can be measured. Stay away from politics and nationalism. The thread is going to far afield with off topic comments. Also, some members are being less than civil and I will be removing some of those comments. Think about what you are writing relative to CPF Rule 4. If this nonsense continues this thread will be closed.

Bill


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 1, 2014)

I've removed several posts that are nonsense, OT, or less than civil.

Bill


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## breinrules (Jun 2, 2014)

hmmm, i wonder why my nokia post was deleted, i just want to know if manufacturing location has something to do with quality. i havent seen a nimh factory but should the manufacturing process be almost automated? and human intervention minimal? If we hire chinese to go to japan, will that differ if we 100% move the whole factory+crew to china?


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## gallon (Jun 2, 2014)

Power Me Up said:


> Has anyone else heard that Panasonic is moving production of Eneloops to China?
> 
> Current reports state that they're still using the same product codes and rated for the same number of cycles but that they may not be using the same design and hence may not be as good as the Japanese made Eneloops.
> 
> ...



We may have a clue on this, and you may already have Chinese Eneloops in hand.

Remember back in February when we were showing pics of our new Panasonic Eneloops? They had a striking bold metallic blue Panasonic emblem on them. And we were puzzled because my initial readings of them had more of a spread than you expected from Eneloops. Well, that spread may indicate that they were Chinese Eneloops.

Refer to the thread back here. My pics and readings begin around post #45. Your pic was a bit earlier I believe.
Pics and discussion on this thread, post #45.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...t=#post4385675

Hypothesis: ID may be as simple as looking at the logo on the label. Large metallic blue Panasonic indicates Chinese manufacture, where Eneloop logo indicates traditional FDK manufacture.
The FDK manufacture are the true Eneloops that we have come to expect. The Chinese manufacture are still Eneloops in the legal sense because Panasonic owns the name and can choose to place it on their new Chinese batteries.

As for me, I will be looking for true FDK Eneloops with traditional Eneloop logo on the wrapper. The Fujitsu's appear to be an identical 4th generation low discharge battery, so the Fujitsu's are now also preferred batteries.

google images for Fujitsu HR-3GTA
https://www.google.com/search?q=fuj...2uyASN94DYDQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1141&bih=655


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## Power Me Up (Jun 2, 2014)

gallon said:


> We may have a clue on this, and you may already have Chinese Eneloops in hand.



I'm reasonably certain that the Eneloops that we both have are Japanese made for a couple of reasons. It has been reported that production in China only started at the beginning of this year - since ours were produced in 2013, they should be safe. It has also been reported that the Chinese Eneloops are currently destined for Asian markets, excluding Japan. Since our Eneloops came from Japanese sellers, that's also a good indicator that they're still Japanese made cells.

I do still want to get my hands on some Chinese Eneloops though for testing purposes, so if anyone stumbles across them, please let me know!


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## Viking (Jun 3, 2014)

Also the Chinese Eneloops photographed and posted on another forum was clearly printed "made in China" in plain english.


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## gallon (Jun 3, 2014)

Viking said:


> Also the Chinese Eneloops photographed and posted on another forum was clearly printed "made in China" in plain english.



No English on mine, link to pic in post #45. Does anyone here read Japanese, or Chinese? That should put it to rest.


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## Mr Floppy (Jun 3, 2014)

gallon said:


> No English on mine, link to pic in post #45. Does anyone here read Japanese, or Chinese? That should put it to rest.



I can't see "中国" or "中國" anywhere on that label (or just "中", the "zhong" for that matter). The writing on the label in Japanese and the Japanese do use some Chinese characters but I don't know if the Japanese write China differently. Mind you I can see "日本" on the bottom right, and those are the characters for "Nippon" so without knowing anything else on that label, I'd say they are Japanese


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## GoVegan (Jun 3, 2014)

gallon said:


> Hypothesis: ID may be as simple as looking at the logo on the label. Large metallic blue Panasonic indicates Chinese manufacture, where Eneloop logo indicates traditional FDK manufacture.
> The FDK manufacture are the true Eneloops that we have come to expect. The Chinese manufacture are still Eneloops in the legal sense because Panasonic owns the name and can choose to place it on their new Chinese batteries.



That's clearly incorrect as the Panasonic Eneloops (with the large metallic blue Panasonic branding) have been on sale in Japan everywhere since April 2013, and they are all made in Japan.


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## GoVegan (Jun 3, 2014)

Mr Floppy said:


> I can't see "中国" or "中國" anywhere on that label (or just "中", the "zhong" for that matter). The writing on the label in Japanese and the Japanese do use some Chinese characters but I don't know if the Japanese write China differently. Mind you I can see "日本" on the bottom right, and those are the characters for "Nippon" so without knowing anything else on that label, I'd say they are Japanese



Mr Floppy is correct, I read Japanese, the writing is all Japanese and they say Made in Japan.

They also say after finishing using them to recycle. Important point for NiMH cells.


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## gallon (Jun 4, 2014)

GoVegan said:


> Mr Floppy is correct, I read Japanese, the writing is all Japanese and they say Made in Japan.
> 
> They also say after finishing using them to recycle. Important point for NiMH cells.



Interesting. Thank you for that. Well then, that presents another puzzle. It seems then that Panasonic is presenting us with two different wrappers for their 4th gen Panasonic Eneloops. And then there should be a third wrapper when we can identify the Chinese version.

I checked the packaging on my Panasonics and although everything is written in Japanese, there is a very clear and prominent Arabic 2100 which I infer to mean recharge cycles. These are indeed 4th gen.


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## samgab (Aug 18, 2014)

I was at a major New Zealand Supermarket today, and found these: 
2100 cycle Panasonic eneloops, Made in China. With, yes, "65% Capacity retention after 5 years"...
I'm running an initial discharge on the C9000 now, which will be followed by a break in to see how they perform out of the box.

















They are legit, but it remains to be seen if they perform in the long term as well as Japanese eneloops always have...


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 18, 2014)

The Japanese ones I bought this summer say 70% after 5 years. It looks like Panasonic has derated the Chinese ones to 65%. Makes me wonder if the quality in other specs is less than the Japanese ones too. Pity. I'm glad I'm stocked up with Japanese cells.


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## Power Me Up (Aug 18, 2014)

I've also managed to get some Chinese made Eneloops - got a set of 4 AA and 4 AAA about a fortnight ago, but I haven't had a chance to post an update before now - sorry all!

There are some noticeable physical differences between the Japanese and Chinese versions - the terminals at both ends are noticeably smoother and the positive terminal is slightly square in shape - the corners of the square are where the 4 visible vent holes are located. The Japanese cells don't have visible vent holes. The disc around the positive terminal is white on the Chinese version instead of grey. If these cells had Duracell labels on them, I wouldn't be calling them Duraloops...

Performance wise, they're so far fairly similar. Capacity is actually slightly higher on the Chinese cells, but their internal resistance is about 10 milliohms higher (around 42 milliohms instead of around 32 milliohms) not something that is particularly significant except when doing very high rate discharges though.

Initial test results out of the packet for the 4x AA cells:

1.2961V 1671 mAh 1996 mWh 334 minutes
1.2964V 1667 mAh 1993 mWh 334 minutes
1.2967V 1629 mAh 1941 mWh 325 minutes
1.2974V 1633 mAh 1951 mWh 328 minutes

A full charge/discharge cycle gave the following capacities in the same order:

1981 mAh 2450 mWh 383 minutes
1956 mAh 2413 mWh 381 minutes
1932 mAh 2381 mWh 374 minutes
1942 mAh 2404 mWh 377 minutes

All of the above discharges were done at 400 mA on a pair of prototype LCD UltraSmartChargers.

I don't yet have test results for the AAA cells as I only just started testing them today - will hopefully have a chance to post some results up tomorrow.

I've got 2 of the Chinese cells running cycle tests to compare them with 2 of the Japanese 4th gen cells. The first pair (one Chinese, one Japanese) is up to about 80 cycles each and the second pair is only up to about 12 cycles (only started yesterday) - still way too early to see any noticeable drop in capacity for any of the cells.


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## samgab (Aug 19, 2014)

I am in the middle of running an IEC break-in cycle, but the initial discharge results, at 400mA, were similar to Paul's. All in the early-1600 mAh's (1646, 1617, 1613, 1604).
Found this info, changes highlighted in red:





You'll note that they are indeed rated at 65% charge remaining after 5 years in storage. So that's a small step backward from the previous generation Japanese made eneloops, but they are apparently better with higher temps and high drain situations. The break-in sequence takes about 39 hours to run each time.


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## Dr. Mario (Aug 19, 2014)

Chinese cells... I wonder if it's going to be Boomfire in the making. (Trustfire, you know?)

Sent from my XT907 using Candlepowerforums mobile app


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 19, 2014)

samgab said:


> I am in the middle of running an IEC break-in cycle, but the initial discharge results, at 400mA, were similar to Paul's.



I think you mean Mark, who writes the firmware for the Ultra Smart Charger. 

Looks like Panasonic are colorizing the batteries too. Some AAA Chocolat[e] tones seem to be available. Would be interesting to compare these to the Panasonic Evolta range, if anyone has some?


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## Viking (Aug 19, 2014)

I just wanna point out that the japanese made generation 4 also can be recharged up to 2100 times according to specs.

I'm not sure about this , but I think they might are listed as 70 % charge after 5 years of storage as opposed to 65 % for the Chinese made ones. At least I believe that was the case for the cells HKJ reviewed not too long ago.

As far as I understand , neither the japanese or chinese made gen. 4 works better in high temperature environments , or in high drain devices than generation 3 did.
Reading the data sheets for the two , I can see no such indications. And using HKJ's comparator they look almost identical. 
I think those claims are more directed towards ordinary nimh cells , or maybe even older generations eneloops than generation 3 , probably generation 1.


http://www.accu-select.de/KUNDEN-DOWNLOAD/HR-3UTGB data sheet.pdf


http://www.hurt.com.pl/prods/bat/eneloop/BK-3MCC.pdf


http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php


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## samgab (Aug 19, 2014)

Viking said:


> I just wanna point out that the japanese made generation 4 also can be recharged up to 2100 times according to specs.
> 
> I'm not sure about this , but I think they might are listed as 70 % charge after 5 years of storage as opposed to 65 % for the Chinese made ones. At least I believe that was the case for the cells HKJ reviewed not too long ago.
> 
> ...



Yes, you're right that the Japanese made Gen4 is rated for 2100 cycles.
That chart I posted is directly comparing the Japanese 3rd gen eneloop and the Chinese 4th gen eneloop for the Australasian market.
But I haven't seen anything to quantify those claims.

There is one thing of note from the datasheets though, the HR-3UTGB datasheet only shows discharge curves up to 4A, whereas the BK-3MCC datasheet has discharge curves shown up to 6A discharge rate.
Also, when I use HKJ's comparitor to compare 5A, 7A, and 10A discharge curves of those two cells, I see that the BK-3MCC has slightly higher voltage throughout the discharge curve in each case, as well as lasting slightly longer in each case also.
So there might be something in the claims, but it's only a sample of 2, so hardly conclusive by any means. And there's not much in it.
My interest will be to see over several years if the Chinese made cells prove to have the same robustness and longevity as the Japanese cells. Also the almost perfect matching that eneloops have always had out of the pack, the life and voltage of a pack of Japanese eneloops has always been very impressive. Hopefully Panasonic is enforcing the same kind of QC in their Chinese factory as Sanyo did in the twicell Japanese factory... Only time will tell.

And thanks Mr Floppy, yes I meant Mark I guess. I always get these 4 letter names confused.

The 1900mAh min. evolta AA is only rated for 1000 cycles, and 80% charge after 1 year of storage. No claims on charge after 5 years for evolta... 
source - http://www.panasonic-batteries.com/...ries.com/files/pan_catalogus_2013_eng_lr3.pdf -pg.13.


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## Viking (Aug 19, 2014)

Yes you are right only time will tell , or maybe Marks test will show us something. Although I don't know whether he is testing a japanese generation 4 to compare also.
I would very much like to see such a comparation test between the two 

*EDIT

*Now I think about it , he has already testet a japanese gen. 4 eneloop. At least I think it was made in Japan.
When he is finish with the current test we can compare


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 19, 2014)

samgab said:


> My interest will be to see over several years if the Chinese made cells prove to have the same robustness and longevity as the Japanese cells. Also the almost perfect matching that eneloops have always had out of the pack, the life and voltage of a pack of Japanese eneloops has always been very impressive. Hopefully Panasonic is enforcing the same kind of QC in their Chinese factory as Sanyo did in the twicell Japanese factory... Only time will tell.



Does anyone know if recently manufactured Gen 4 Japanese cells still list the 5-year charge as 70%? Maybe they've also changed the Japanese cells to 65% because they've done more long-term testing on them?


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## Power Me Up (Aug 19, 2014)

Yes, I'm testing two 4th gen Japanese cells against two 4th gen Chinese cells - one Japanese and one Chinese in each of 2 chargers.

With the chargers working at 2 amps charge and discharge and rest periods of 20 minutes after charging and 10 minutes after discharging, each cell is going through about 10 cycles per day. Based on past experience with a 4th gen Japanese made cell lasting about 700 cycles under these sorts of testing conditions, it's likely that the testing should be complete in a bit over 2 months. I suspect that with it being cooler, I may get more cycles out of them though so it may take a bit longer for the test to complete.

If I notice any significant difference between the cells before the test is complete, I'll make sure to let you all know here.


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## Viking (Aug 19, 2014)

Power Me Up said:


> Yes, I'm testing two 4th gen Japanese cells against two 4th gen Chinese cells - one Japanese and one Chinese in each of 2 chargers.



Awesome


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## Rosoku Chikara (Aug 19, 2014)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Does anyone know if recently manufactured Gen 4 Japanese cells still list the 5-year charge as 70%? Maybe they've also changed the Japanese cells to 65% because they've done more long-term testing on them?



I recently purchased some Eneloop Pros here in Japan that were dated May, 2014. Their package makes no mention of how long they will hold their charge. But, here is the latest information as shown on the Panansonic Japanese website:





I think the numbers are pretty self-explanatory, even if you don't read Japanese. The first row is AA cells (size 3 in Japan), and the second row is AAA cells (size 4 in Japan). The last row shows the number of cycles for each cell type.

The following is where the same page makes their claim about Low Self Discharge. Once again the numbers are self-explanatory, but you may have some difficulty picking them out among the "maze" of kanji, so I underlined the number of years (1 & 5) in green, and the percentages in red. So, the claim in Japan is still 70% after 5 years. (The lower part says that the "high performance Eneloop Pros" are good for 85% after 1 year.)


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## samgab (Aug 19, 2014)

I've got to say, that without any evidence other than a lot of previous experience, I'd have more confidence in those Japanese made Gen4 eneloops with the large Panasonic logo than in the Chinese made Gen4 eneloops we now have available in the NZ market. It's a shame our market has been allocated the Chinese made variant rather than the Japanese made type. It's only a small thing, but the very fact that they had to adjust their longevity claims for the Chinese variant speaks to the inferiority of the product. But hey, at least they're - on the "prima facie" - being up front about it, and not just sticking false claims on them as is so common with cells out of China (eg. "5000 mAh" 18650's, or "3000 mAh" AA NiMhs?)


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## samgab (Aug 19, 2014)

Just an update; I have the results from the first break-in sequence on the Chinese-made eneloops.
(Discharged at 0.2C (400mA) down to 0.9V (it's supposed to be 1.0V, but not a big difference there), rested for 1 hour, charged at 0.1C (200mA) for 16 hours, rested for 1 hour, then discharged at 0.2C down to 0.9V again.)
The discharged capacities of the 4 cells were: *2014, 2001, 1987, and 1990 mAh* respectively. Now another 16 hour 0.1C charge is in progress, after which I'll rest them for an hour and run another 0.2C discharge to compare.
So a fairly good result I think. I'm going to label all of the cells with their initial break-in capacity and which bay they were tested in, then I'll put them into regular use, and retest using the same device, bay, and method after 1 year, 2 years, and so on.
I don't keep detailed records of each cycle, so I won't have any way of knowing how many cycles they'll have done, but I have quite a few Japanese 1st and 2nd gen eneloops in current duty, so it'll be interesting to see how those compare in the long term.
It's the long term that really matters, much more than the initial out of box test results, IMHO, although a closely balanced set out of box is a good thing too...
Bearing in mind too, that I am not using lab equipment, it's not calibrated or rated for any sort of real accuracy, so the results are not meaningful for anything other than curiosity and interest.
I have access at work to some calibrated Cadex C7400 battery analysis equipment, so it might be interesting to run them all through some cycles on that gear too for a point of comparison...


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## ChrisGarrett (Aug 22, 2014)

As you say, the issue isn't 'out of the pack' performance, or even 1-2 years, it's cycle life. I've got some AccuPower 2900s that ran pretty well for two years, but they're starting to get twitchy now and my AccuPower 1200 AAAs are running an IR of over 2.00v on my C-9000 after that length of time.

Hopefully, the Chinese made stuff lasts as long, so let's keep our fingers crossed.

Chris


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## tintomatic (Oct 11, 2014)

Power Me Up said:


> Yes, I'm testing two 4th gen Japanese cells against two 4th gen Chinese cells - one Japanese and one Chinese in each of 2 chargers.



Any update on your test? :wave:


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## Power Me Up (Oct 11, 2014)

Testing is still underway, so I'm not ready to post any results yet - sorry!

About a week or so ago, I tried contacting Panasonic Australia to ask them some questions about the Chinese Eneloops. The main question I asked was whether the Chinese made Eneloops were tested to the same standard as the Japanese Eneloops. Surprisingly enough, I did actually get a response: The answer was that the testing method is the same. The person that I spoke to said the usual sorts of things - that moving manufacturing to China was completely normal and that the quality is either identical or even a little better with the Chinese made cells. When I pressed him a bit further, he backed off on stating that they were identical or better and said that there would be some slight differences but the in the main, the performance would be the same.

I tried asking a couple of follow up questions about the ownership of the production facility that makes Eneloops in Japan, but I didn't get any useful response on those questions...

In Australia at least, it seems that we are seeing a benefit from the reduced production cost of moving manufacturing to China. **** Smith Electronics (probably the biggest retailer of Eneloops in the country) normally sold 8 packs of Eneloops (i.e. Glitters, Rouge/Tones) for a RRP of AU$40 per pack, but they were on special for $20 per pack so often that the cheaper price was pretty much the standard - anyone paying the full RRP was being seriously ripped off! The RRP for the Tropical packs (Japanese made, 3rd Gen) went up to $50, but they were still often available for $20 per pack on special. The Chinese made Chocolat 8 packs have continued the $50 RRP, but they've now gone on special for $15 per pack several times, so it seems that the effective price of the Chinese cells is now 25% lower than the Japanese made variety - and this is despite the Australian exchange rate going bad against the US$ which should have pushed prices up instead of down!

It's good to see that Panasonic is passing along at least some of the benefit from reduced production costs, but personally, I'd prefer to pay the higher price for the Japanese made cells with the knowledge that they've got a proven history of performing well over the long term...


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## tintomatic (Oct 12, 2014)

Power Me Up said:


> Testing is still underway, so I'm not ready to post any results yet - sorry!...



Thanks for the info mate. Looking forward for your results.


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## KiwiBlue (Oct 16, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Personally i see this as you making a mountain out of a mole hill.If you are so concerned why not write to Panasonic and state your concerns.As Panasonic now own Eneloop please qualify how Panasonic do not own the technology.



+1


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## tintomatic (Oct 16, 2014)

Does anyone know the claimed capacity retention rate of the Chinese made eneloops after 1 year or 3 years? 

The Japanese made cells are advertised to have a charge retention rate of 90%, 80% and 70% after 1, 3, and 5 years respectively. But I cannot find any information about the retention rate of the Chinese made cells after 1 year or 3 years. They only state that the batteries will retain 65% of charge after 5 years.


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## MidnightDistortions (Oct 31, 2014)

I do hope that the Eneloops from China will be as good (or better) as the Japanese ones. I would hate to see Eneloops go down in quality but i have found that not all things made in China are poor quality which leads me to believe it might be mostly due to how quality control is managed in the manufacturing plants. I've also have read about how workers are treated in some plants in China which could use some better management to keep the workers in a positive work environment. Either way i guess i should stock on the Japanese Eneloops while i still can!


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## magellan (Oct 31, 2014)

In my experience there are always hiccups in a newly set up manufacturing operation especially for anything as complicated as a battery. Just don't buy the first ones that come off the line.



ven said:


> If its Panasonic its Panasonic and as mr mcnair states they have their brand at stake.I really dont see any risk if the Panasonic factory was in China/Japan or Timbuktu as long as its a Panasonic factory.They will have to have set quality standards to meet where ever they are produced.
> 
> To add fenix,armytek,nitecore to name just 3(many many more) are made in china,very advanced technology ,so personally i dont see it as a negative.........just my opinion:thumbsup:


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## ACruceSalus (Oct 31, 2014)

Picked up a pack of Eneloops from Costco about 2 months ago which contained both AAs and AAAs. These are 3rd gen according to the markings and they are manufactured in Japan. None of them have ever charged above 740 mAh even though the minimum rating is 750. I also have some 2nd gen Eneloops which are at least 4 years old and they still charge to about 670 mAh. We cycle through them about every 3 days. Should I be concerned about these new 3rd gen Eneloops?


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## Power Me Up (Oct 31, 2014)

ACruceSalus said:


> Picked up a pack of Eneloops from Costco about 2 months ago which contained both AAs and AAAs. These are 3rd gen according to the markings and they are manufactured in Japan. None of them have ever charged above 740 mAh even though the minimum rating is 750.



Which charger are you using for your testing, and which mode are you using? Keep in mind that chargers like the Maha C9000 is only rated for accuracy to within 1% (if I recall correctly) 740 mAh is not much more than 1% less than 750 mAh... If you're measuring the amount of charge put into your cells, that's also not as accurate as doing a cycle to measure the capacity during a full discharge.


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## ACruceSalus (Oct 31, 2014)

I'm using the Maha C9000 and they are charged using the "charge" setting. That's interesting that the charger can be 1% off. My concern is that the gen 2 Eneloops charged over the mininum for quite a while before dropping below their minimum. This is behavior that I expected from gen 3 cells. I like your idea of doing a cycle charge to get a better reading. I'll do a refresh/analyze and see how they do. Thank you.


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## Viking (Oct 31, 2014)

Hi ACruceSalus

The official right way to do a capacity measurement is by doing a break-in.
That's the way the battery manufacturers does it. 

I tend to get a little larger measurements out of them that way. If you do so , you might just get over the 750 mah mark.

Remember to drain the cells before doing a break-in.


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## ACruceSalus (Oct 31, 2014)

Thanks Viking I'll do the drain and then breakin cycle and see how that goes.


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 2, 2014)

I heard that Maha chargers have a 'rest' cycle that finishes topping off the battery at a lower current opposed to most battery chargers such as the LaCrosse to avoid overcharging. I have found though that the LaCrosse either under charges or doesn't charge to full capacity but that is mostly due to the internal resistance in older batteries. I usually take the Eneloops off the charger once it finishes but i agree with the other posters that it's a good idea to use the break in feature when testing new Eneloops. You don't get an accurate reading when the batteries are being charged, it's discharging the batteries from full is what gives you the capacity of the batteries. If you were to discharge the batteries right from the pack, the charger would tell you what the remaining capacity is left in the batteries.



magellan said:


> In my experience there are always hiccups in a newly set up manufacturing operation especially for anything as complicated as a battery. Just don't buy the first ones that come off the line.



Yep, it's pretty much for anything. I try not to be the first in line when a new product arrives but even then it's rare to get a defective product when it's the first batch, it's more apparent though because many people are buying it at once and finding several defectives. The thing i don't want is being the first person in line, getting a defective product and not being able to exchange it easily when the stores run out of the product.


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## Power Me Up (Nov 3, 2014)

tintomatic said:


> Thanks for the info mate. Looking forward for your results.



I've just posted up the results of my testing in a separate thread:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...nese-Vs-Chinese-Eneloop-Cycle-Testing-Results


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## 18650 (Nov 4, 2014)

Power Me Up said:


> I've just posted up the results of my testing in a separate thread: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...nese-Vs-Chinese-Eneloop-Cycle-Testing-Results


 Your (unfortunate) results make a lot of the replies on the first couple of pages in this thread quite funny. Thanks for putting in the work.


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## Behemot (Mar 18, 2016)

I've been just noted about this situation. If you are indeed low on japanese accumulators in there Australia and even that what you have is expensive crap (which is as long as I checked couple months ago), I can supply ya. Just have ppl returning there in near weeks and months so if you'd be interested, lets start a thread and get something going on.


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