# VFD conversion Q?



## niner (Dec 28, 2009)

I'm gathering parts for VFD conversion and need some help.

I just won a Baldor IDM3587T on eBay. It is a 2HP TEBC 3PH motor. Is it okay for VFD conversion?

Between Hitachi SJ200 and AC tech SMVector drives, which one would you pick? I know Barry and Will both have AC Tech.

http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Driv....html?osCsid=32621eb2bfef78b7f333e3847a2ec4a6

http://www.wolfautomation.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=30467

Thanks.


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## precisionworks (Dec 28, 2009)

> Is it okay for VFD conversion?


No way ... why in the world would you buy a Totally Enclosed Blower Cooled vector drive motor 



> Between Hitachi SJ200 and AC tech SMVector drives, which one would you pick?


The SMVector costs less, is easier to configure, performs the same functions, and is made in the USA. The SJ200 is a very nice drive, made in Japan, but the program loop drives me to drink. Intuitive it is not, but it can be done & most users will learn it after a while.

Tech support is superb from both companies (Hitachi & Lenze, not Drives Warehouse or Wolf).

Also, keep a watch on el cheapo vector drives on eBay that require a shaft encoder. They go for not much money as very few people are willing to drop $1600 for a motor like yours, with an optical encoder built in.


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## niner (Dec 28, 2009)

> No way ... why in the world would you buy a Totally Enclosed Blower Cooled vector drive motor


 
Umm, Barry, please educate me: what's wrong with TEBC? Actually, what's the difference between TEBC and TEFC?



> The SMVector costs less, is easier to configure, performs the same functions, and is made in the USA. The SJ200 is a very nice drive, made in Japan, but the program loop drives me to drink. Intuitive it is not, but it can be done & most users will learn it after a while.
> 
> Tech support is superb from both companies (Hitachi & Lenze, not Drives Warehouse or Wolf).
> 
> Also, keep a watch on el cheapo vector drives on eBay that require a shaft encoder. They go for not much money as very few people are willing to drop $1600 for a motor like yours, with an optical encoder built in.


 
Well, I got the motor for about $125 shipped. I wouldn't pay $1600 for it

Thanks Barry. Usability is important, so I will pick up a AC Tech. What size the brake module should I get for a 2hp motor? 2-3hp one? or do I need to oversize it?


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## gadget_lover (Dec 28, 2009)

I think Barry was kidding. I seem to recall another thread that said it was the perfect match. I could be wrong.

Daniel


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## niner (Dec 28, 2009)

niner said:


> What size the brake module should I get for a 2hp motor? 2-3hp one? or do I need to oversize it?


 
Actually, do I need a braking module, if the target machine is a mill or drill press? I thought if the inertial load is low, I may not need a braking module.


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## niner (Dec 28, 2009)

gadget_lover said:


> I think Barry was kidding. I seem to recall another thread that said it was the perfect match. I could be wrong.
> 
> Daniel


 
Barry had mentioned that motor with TENV or TEFC is recommanded. Not sure about TEBC, so I thought that may or may not work. I hope Barry was joking with me.


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## saltytri (Dec 28, 2009)

I'd say he was just funnin' ya! Here is a definition of the motor that you scored:

*Definition: TEBC*

_ A TEBC enclosure on a motor means "Totally Enclosed, Blower Cooled". _
_ TEBC motors are most commonly used for variable speed motors combined with variable speed drives of some sort. Sometimes these motors are rated as "Inverter duty" or "Vector duty". They are considerably more expensive than similarly rated TEFC motors. _
_ The motor is constructed with a dust tight, moderately sealed enclosure which rejects a degree of water. A constant speed blower pulls air over the motor fins to keep the motor cool at all operating speeds. _
_ Notice that this motor is not suitable for used in "washdown" or "Hazardous" environments. _



Note the reference to the constant speed blower - that's a way-cool feature because most motors that have fans run the fans on the motor shaft so there is less cooling at lower speeds. That's why I just bought a 110V muffin fan to add to my Baldor TEFC.

Of course, if you still have doubts, I'll gladly take that lousy piece of overpriced junk off your hands. At a substantial discount, of course! :devil::devil:


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## precisionworks (Dec 28, 2009)

Sorry guys, bad attempt at humor 

The absolute very best motors for VFD control are the TENV, and the (less common) TEBC. 

The TENV has no internal or external fan, and relies on a very large mass housing, often with fins, for radiant and convective cooling. The TEBC uses a constant speed blower fan, so the fan runs fast even if shaft rpm is nearly zero. Both motors are high dollar, and the Baldor IDM3587T is about $1600 list price. The constant speed blower, coupled with the optical encoder and heavy construction, make that motor a high dollar item.



> What size the brake module should I get


I'd call tech support on that. Without a brake resistor, the spindle will not stop instantly (and will not reverse instantly) above a few hundred rpm. Instant stop from any speed requires at least one brake module & may require a second one, depending on the mass of the spindle tooling. Worst case on a mill would be a big boring head running a large diameter bar - even an engineer will have to ponder that one to suggest the best resistor (s). 

Both drives are excellent units, but Hitachi has the most confusing program loop I've ever seen (compared to Allen-Bradely, Siemens, Square D-Telemechanique, Woods, Teco, GE, etc.) Here's a photo from their manual:












I have to refer to the manual for every reconfig operation, even the simple ones. With the SMVector, the numbers scroll from low to high - much more simple.


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## 65535 (Dec 29, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> Sorry guys, bad attempt at humor
> 
> The absolute very best motors for VFD control are the TENV, and the (less common) TEBC.




I thought it was funny, that's a steal on that motor. I'm looking at $130 for a .25HP TEFC motor for my lathe, let alone a TEBC. Yikes. 

Anyways, you may take advantage of some of the deals on those closed loop vector drives that work with your motors encoder. And you'd be amazing at the prices just because they don't move with the new wave of open loop sensorless drives.


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## niner (Dec 29, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> Sorry guys, bad attempt at humor


 
My bad, Barry. It seems to be too good to be true for such a good deal, that I'm skeptical.

I'll see what I actually receive. Hope it is in new condition as described.


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## niner (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm trying to find some cheap close-loop drive on eBay, but not sure what I'm looking at. Can someone show me a couple example?

Thanks.


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## precisionworks (Dec 30, 2009)

Check these out ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...9587358&itemid=360127610756&ff4=263602_263622

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...9587358&itemid=360127611145&ff4=263602_263622

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...9587358&itemid=360127611785&ff4=263602_263622

Bigger drives are also available from the same seller. Any of these drives will have to be derated by 50% for single phase input, so the 7.5hp drive will run a 3.75hp motor with 1ph input, the 10hp drive will run a 5hp motor, etc.

Pretty cheap for drives of this size. Will Q would love to buy a 10hp drive for a 5hp motor he has, but to get that in a "normal" sensorless vector drive costs $522 (SMV ESV752N02TXB) versus $349 for the sensor type drive.

Bigger drives show an even greater price diff - a 20hp sensorless drive is $1031 (SMV ESV153N02TXB) compared to $549 for the sensor type drive.

Optical encoders are pretty neat. Some will sense over 300,000 counts per shaft revolution:

http://www.beiied.com/news/hollow-shaft_encoder_300k_counts.html

Sensorless drives do a very nice job for most industrial apps, and can be connected to any plain vanilla 3ph motor in the world. The sensor drive (aka closed loop drive) is still the king when there is a need for absolute positional accuracy.


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