# New Luxeon c



## HumanLumen (Mar 16, 2010)

Lumileds latest announcement. Very small but typical 82 lumens/watt and 85 lumens of light (i have not read the datasheet).
Lumileds were touting 115lm/watt back in Feb 2007, with technologies to be rolled out in 12/18 months. Are there any real development that we can expect from Lumileds (oops, psuedo rant)?
BTW what do you think of the Luxeon c


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## mds82 (Mar 16, 2010)

well its crazy small, but nothing impressive. even the Rebel is more efficient then it.


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## HarryN (Mar 17, 2010)

Perhaps a better way to look at this product is from its target market and competition- mid power range, Osram and Cree. At 1/4 the size of a rebel, it is getting small - smaller and more powerful than any 3 or 5mm type led. The output is plenty for that market.

Osram and Cree have a number of mid power range products out there, which Lumileds tried to fill in with the older plcc type leds. It appears that this product is focused on filling into this quite large consumer segment. (appliance market)

It is a bit frustrating to not have 1,000 lumen LED packages coming out of Lumileds, but it might be worth your time to consider looking at the data sheets for the high CRI / high spectral output versions of the Rebel. While these dont appear to give the Lumens / watt ratings of some of the other parts on the market, the quality of light, and frankly, the very easy selection of CCT / CRI into standardized part numbers is just wonderful. It is easy to underestimate just how much of a gift this is to a light builder, unless you were around when people were paying $ 60 / each for a premium binned, Lux V, putting out about the same Lumens as a Rebel at 2x the power consumption. Not only that, you had to nearly be part of the "club" and have a "trade" to obtain more than a handful of these jewels. 

Given the circumstances, I am happy to have off the shelf access to the wide selection of p/n's vs. the constant chase for the ultimate bin. I will admit to still being a bin junky, but at least it enables me to actually plan a product build.


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## Gryloc (Mar 18, 2010)

Hmmm. According to the datasheet (a neat thing to check out, btw):
85lm typical at 350mA with a typical Vf of 2.95V and a maximum of 500mA of forward current. CRI of 75 and CCT of 5700K typically. Viewing angle of 120 degrees. A package size of 1.64mm X 2.04mm and a height of 0.7mm. According to the relative output vs. current chart, we can expect about 1.35x the output at 500mA compared to at 350mA. Therefore about 115lm (from typical lumen figure) at 500mA -with a Vf of 3.08V.

I would also like to see high tech products by Lumileds. However, getting newer generation technology (still useful), but in different, cheaper packages is nice. I was rooting for Lumileds to break past Cree in efficiency and bleeding edge technology, but I think it is good that they create emitters that will actually show up in the hands of general customers (even without their knowledge). Technically, Lumileds' high quality products are helping maintaining a good name for LED technology for all those that think LEDs are those blue-ish white (light producing) clear things in keychains (I may have gone too far generalizing there). 

This could fill the market where LEDs like the Cree XR-C, XP-E, MX-6, and Seoul P9 was doing well. These are also well suited for use in cell phones due to their tiny size (it seems like Lumiled's TFFC Luxeon Flash is non-existent).

Oh, isn't this possibly a response to Cree's new MPL emitter? The MPL uses the smaller EZ-700 dies that are a little behind in efficiency, I believe. This Luxeon "c" can be wired in any configuration and can be placed in tiny clusters for general lighting (where CRI and CCT color is not as important). Does this seem possible? The design of the MPL is so odd because everything is pre-wired (though there is two or three separate sets of dies to wire up). I would prefer my own design using these "c" emitters due to having more design flexibility. Regardless of which could be easier to work with, I cannot wait to see these value emitter (from Cree and Lumileds) show up in quality products at a local brick and mortar store for prices that compete with high quality CFL bulbs.

I am actually very excited to see how much these will cost. Its interesting that we are practically paying for just the LED die now since package size is shrinking so much. I cannot wait to see them show up here for a review. However nobody is talking about Lumiled's CCT/CRI binned Rebels, so I guess there is little interest for Lumileds anymore like there was in the good old days. Pardon my ramblings. Its is all we can do when dreaming about using new emitters no matter who made them.

-Tony


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## saabluster (Mar 19, 2010)

HumanLumen said:


> BTW what do you think of the Luxeon c


I love it! It definitely opens up some interesting possibilities. I found this statement quite funny from them though.

"The small, *un-encapsulated* LUXEON _c_ package gives you the design freedom..." 

They say it is un-encapsulated but the pictures and the data sheet clearly show that it is. Oh well. Has anyone heard what the pricing on this will be?


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## znomit (Mar 19, 2010)

saabluster said:


> I love it! It definitely opens up some interesting possibilities. I found this statement quite funny from them though.
> 
> "The small, *un-encapsulated* LUXEON _c_ package gives you the design freedom..."
> 
> They say it is un-encapsulated but the pictures and the data sheet clearly show that it is. Oh well. Has anyone heard what the pricing on this will be?



_"Small un-encapsulated light source simplifies optic design"_
They have a flat silicone overcoat though...
I guess they mean no dome for clumsy thumbed light builders to knock off. 

Wow these are tiny. 
http://www.philipslumileds.com/pdfs/AB36.pdf


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## HarryN (Mar 19, 2010)

They are reasonably small, but actually very close to 0805 size, which is a really common size surface mount resistor. I was impressed when I started playing with Rebels, and my kids had no problem placing them by hand very quickly.

I spoke to Future about the "C" parts today. The parts are in production but not yet available. Pricing looks like it will be lower than the Rebel, but this is sort of a relative term. The parts are listed as a fairly narrow CCT bin set. If you buy this same sorted bin set in a Rebel, they are around $ 5 / each vs. the unbinned Rebel variety (for instance, generic cool white) is 1/2 of that.

What I could not tell yet is if they used the same 1x1mm die or not, but it sure looks similar to a Rebel die in the picture. It would be handy if they offered a high surface brightness at moderate currents with that package.

More information later next week.

I have the impression that the reason they are listed as "unencapsulated" is to deal with the expectations of the consumer appliance designers. Sometimes there is spilled water around dishwashers and washing machines.


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## HarryN (Mar 19, 2010)

Gryloc said:


> nobody is talking about Lumiled's CCT/CRI binned Rebels, so I guess there is little interest for Lumileds anymore like there was in the good old days. Pardon my ramblings. Its is all we can do when dreaming about using new emitters no matter who made them.
> 
> -Tony



Well, actually, I just finished buying some of the 4000K high CRI Rebels for a project of mine.


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## HarryN (Mar 23, 2010)

Ok - got a short update from Philips Lumileds on this package.

Basically, they have some customers that have told them that the Rebel is too much of a point source and they need the beam spread out a bit. This part is intended to be a bit more diffuse and better for embedding in strip type applications. It also will work better for the phone people for photo flash.

The package still uses their standad 1x1 mm die, similar to the normal Rebel.

Pricing and availability - I forgot to ask, as it didn't fit the application I am focused on, but it will be a lower price point than the Rebel.


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## jeffosborne (Mar 26, 2010)

Hi HarryN! What are you going to do with your 4000K high CRI Rebels? I am pleased with that part, I used 15 for a photography light - looks great. Jeff O.


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## HarryN (Mar 27, 2010)

jeffosborne said:


> Hi HarryN! What are you going to do with your 4000K high CRI Rebels? I am pleased with that part, I used 15 for a photography light - looks great. Jeff O.



Hi Jeff, I did a lot of looking before picking that part. It is interesting that you selected it as well. You must have excellent taste in LEDs.  It is good to hear that it works well in photography, as that lighting quality level is exactly what I am aiming for.

I am developing a drop-in LED replacement for the incan / led hybrid Streamlight SL-20x and SL-20x-LED, and wanted an LED which can provide high contrast and detail resolution. The higher CCT LEDs don't have anything close to the spectral quality of this part, and the lower CCT, high CRI ones are just too warm for my taste. Even this is a little warm for me, but I can always overdrive it a bit as needed. 

I should really put a link to the thread in my sig line, but it is in the home build / mod section. It is still a work in progress, but I am pleased with how it's coming together. It has been more complicated and expensive to build than I had originally planned, but I guess that is to be expected.


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## Bullzeyebill (Apr 16, 2010)

Is that the Rebel 4000 CCT, 85 CRI, 85 flux model?

Bill


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## HarryN (Apr 16, 2010)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Is that the Rebel 4000 CCT, 85 CRI, 85 flux model?
> 
> Bill



Hi Bill, yes. Its the LXM3-PW51. Of course I will be driving them a bit harder than 350ma. 

They are double the price of normal Rebels, but I think its worth it.


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## Bullzeyebill (Apr 16, 2010)

HarryN said:


> Hi Bill, yes. Its the LXM3-PW51. Of course I will be driving them a bit harder than 350ma.
> 
> They are double the price of normal Rebels, but I think its worth it.



You think that they are better than the Hi CRI, 3700 CCT, 93 CRI, 80 flux Seoul P4's. Reason I ask is I am running one in my Hi CRI Ra. CCT seems higher than 3700, higher than my SF incans and no sicky yellow, though yellower than my Hi CCT LEDs of course. You are saying that the Rebel is putting out a cleaner beam, and doing well with contrast, with good color rendition, photo quality? Please explain more the differences between the Hi CRI Seoul and your Rebel Hi CRI. Thanks,

Bill


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## HarryN (Apr 17, 2010)

Hi Bill,

I am sorry for taking this thread sideways away from the Luxeon C, which is the original point of this thread.

If you don't mind, please consider to ask the question again in this Rebel thread. I don't have all of the answers you are looking for, but perhaps others do or can link to posts which might contain them.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3355228#post3355228


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## fyrstormer (Apr 19, 2010)

It seems to me that any LED with a smaller die and higher surface brightness would be of interest to the "pocket thrower" contingent, because parabolic reflectors and optics can only perfectly focus light coming from a single point, and the smaller an emission source is, the more pointlike its emission pattern is.


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