# Winchester Model 12 circa 1925



## StoneDog (Jan 12, 2006)

Hi all, 

I've come across a Winchester Model 12 12 gauge pump. Based on the S/N this was manufactured around 1925. It's in fair condtion (finish is less that 50% with very minor pitting but a clean bore). 

So based on it's age I'm trying to decide whether I want to risk 2 3/4" magnum shells in it or not. I picked up a box of #2 shot (may be some duck in my future) but the magnum designation raised a flag.

Can anyone here on CPF comment, or maybe point me to another site that could?

Jon


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## wylde21 (Jan 12, 2006)

Winchester Model 12 were "heavy barrel" shotguns designed and sold to be used on waterfowl (ducks). These guns run heavy compared to some newer 12 gages....I had one that was over 9lbs. They were/are chambered for 3" shells, so I would see no issue using a commercial 2 3/4" "magnum" round. Personally, I would select with non-mag 3'" shells over 2-3/4" mags for duck....but if in good shape the 3" magnums should be no problem, too. VERY IMPORTANT: Since you do not seem to be a trained gunsmith (and neither am I) I would have a qualified local gunsmith look over your used shotgun to determine if it is ready to fire any shells, much less magnums.


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## StoneDog (Jan 12, 2006)

No, I'm _not_ a gunsmith.  I really don't want to take this somewhere and pay to have it looked over. But, that's better than damaging the gun and/or _me_ if the receiver, etc is somehow compromised.

I was told this one was chambered for 2 3/4", not 3". Are you sure they're chambered for 3"? 

Anyway, it has an interesting "poly choke" with built in muzzle break. Can't wait to try it out. 

Jon


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## AJ_Dual (Jan 12, 2006)

If it's determined to be mechanicaly sound, it should be fine with most any modern shotshells.

The old shotguns you need to worry about are the ones that straddle the transition from black powder and smokless powder eras, from around 1890 to 1905 or so. (Anything much earlier is obviously a BP-only gun)

Many were made with softer steels, or even Damascus steel barrels that are only safe with the lower pressures of BP shotshells. There were lots of European imports (many from Belgium) from several small "cottage" makers who went in and out of business quickly, at least in comparison to the "big" firearms companies who are still with us today. The quality of these import shotguns from the late 19th and early 20th century varied from lousy to fantasitc, and models for both black powder and smokless shells coexisted.

The variety of shotguns from this era, many with little or poor documentation because of their origins, and the unfortunate people who've tried to fire smokless shells from BP only guns is why all shotguns from the 1880's to 1920's have a reputation as "dangerous".


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## BIGIRON (Jan 12, 2006)

Primary problem is if you're hunting in a waterfowl area, whether you're hunting waterfowl or not, you must use steel shot. For sure the barrel is not made for that. 

It probably has either a PolyChoke or Cutts Compensator. The PolyChoke is an adjustable choke - works sorta like a collet - and will not tolerate steel. The Cutts uses single screw in choke tubes and would tolerate steel, but not for long.

Sounds like that M12 has value only as a shooter. I'd pick up a Mossberg or Remington pump. Later models will handle steel. You can probably pick up a shooter for $100 or so.


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## BIGIRON (Jan 12, 2006)

I just checked, my prewar M12 has "2 3/4" chamber" lettered on the left side of the barrell just in front of the receiver.


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## Malpaso (Jan 12, 2006)

Check www.sassnet.com/forums/. The knowledge of old guns there is like the knowledge of flashlights here.


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## Fat_Tony (Jan 12, 2006)

You may also want to checkout www.thehighroad.org. They have separate shotgun, rifle, and handgun forums there. (I do not belong myself, but I do sometimes lurk there). As for your Model 12, I have no personal experience with this gun, but I learned from the aforementioned website that there are Model 12s chambered in both 2.75” and 3”. So please, be sure your gun can handle it before you try any of the magnums.


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## magic79 (Jan 12, 2006)

You should ask a gunsmith whether you can shoot steel (and other non-lead shot) though the Polychoke.


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## WDR65 (Jan 13, 2006)

In my experience the smaller size steel loads (i.e 4, 6) should be okay in improved cylinder or modified barrels,it probably won't damage the barrel or the choke in these sizes. I don't use larger in my Model 12 and its jug choked which is close to improved cylinder. If it has a full barrell I wouldn't use anything but Bismuth or Kent Tungsten Matrix and to be totally safe you might consider these as these guns are getting harder to find. In fact both of these companies make some good light loads that are excellent for decoying medium size ducks and pass shooting wood ducks here in N.C.
As for the 2 3/4" designation the Model 12's don't have much extra room in the ejection port and a 3" load would probably not eject, not to mention the fact that it would probably dangerously overpressure the barrel. I don't see where 2 3/4" magnum steel loads would be a problem as they aren't loaded as heavily as the old magnum 2 3/4" lead loads and I don't think the pressure is as high. The 3" Model 12 orginally was the Heavy Duck though I know other types were made, it had either a 30" or 32" full choked barrel and was a real whopper with 3" lead loads I'm sure. At home I have a book on the Model 12 and its versions, but not up here at school. If you have any questions though I can check it this weekend when I head back.


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## magic79 (Jan 13, 2006)

WDR65:

Remember he said he had a Polychoke, not a choked barrel or choke tubes. It can behave quite a bit differently.

(A Polychoke, as he describes, looks like a muzzle brake. You twist it to change the choke size...in other words, you can instantly change it to any choke you want by just turning the Polychoke.)

Check it out here:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/reviews_polychoke.htm


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## StoneDog (Jan 13, 2006)

Thanks for the help everyone. I wasn't planning on using this heavily, just a little light practice at the local range and _maybe_ some bird hunting if I can manage it. The barrel is a little long for the "bump in the night" scenarios, so I'm not too interested in other possible uses. 

I will check out the links above. 

Without doing any research I picked up a couple of boxes of shotshells a few nights ago. The first was a box of #2 Remington Nitro-Magnum (with buffered shot?). It's actually listed as turkey load on Remington's site... The second was a small box of sabot slugs, don't remember the make. Not that I'm stuck with these, but do either of them raise a red flag?

Thanks again,

Jon


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## BIGIRON (Jan 13, 2006)

Both those shotshells should be OK.


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## MoonRise (Jan 13, 2006)

Ummm, Dude, AFAIK -every- state in the US requires non-toxic shot for use when hunting migratory waterfowl. It's a Federal regulation.

So, your load of Remington Nitro-Mag 12 gauge 2-3/4 inch 1-1/2 oz #2 buffered shot (a load marketed for turkey hunting) is not a load for duck hunting. It's for turkey hunting.

And that load is not one I would use for target practice either. Shotgun ranges might restrict the use of shot size on the trap/skeet/clay ranges to something a bit smaller than #2 lead shot (because of the downrange range of the larger shot).

The box of sabot slugs is also obviously not a duck load either, it's a slug load.

Reminder, "magnum" on a shotshell load typically denotes a shell with a heavier than normal payload of shot, unlike in rifle or pistol rounds where "magnum" denotes a heavier powder charge, higher pressure, and higher velocity.

Advice, take the gun to a competent gunsmith for a once over before you fire it. If you don't -know- what size shells it takes (the shell size is marked on the barrel or receiver of every shotgun nowadays, I don't know where your gun might be marked if it is), have the gunsmith determine that as well.

AFAIK, the Poly-Choke is NOT rated for use with steel shot, so if you do want to use the gun for duck hunting, you would have to use one of the -other- non-toxic shot loads (bismuth or tungsten-mix, including Hevi-Shot).

Also, the older guns usually had softer steel than nowadays, so steel shot would again not be advised for use in that gun. The steel shot would tend to score/scratch the barrel, especially at the forcing cone and just in front of the 'chamber'.

After it gets a clean check-up from the gunsmith, I would not use steel shot in it at all. Lead or the softer non-toxic waterfowl loads only. Watch out for the adjustable Poly-Choke to self-adjust itself during use, especially on the looser choke settings (there is less spring in the collet fingers at the looser choke settings, so the collar has less drag on it at those settings).

The two shells you listed -should- be safe to fire in the gun if they are 2-3/4 inch loads, but you probably won't get much accuracy from the sabot-slug round through a Poly-Choke (sabot rounds are really usually meant for a fully rifled barrel, or at least for an extended rifled choke).


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## StoneDog (Jan 13, 2006)

Cool, makes sense. Bummer with the slugs, I was hoping it might be at least a little useable. 12 gauge is known for it's versatility but I guess my particular specimen is a little restricted.

And I'm not sure why i said I would be duck hunting. AFAIK duck hunting isn't real big here in Georgia (could be wrong). My experience with duck/goose hunting goes back to when I was a kid up in Michigan carrying my Benjamin .177 while my dad and uncle had the 12 gauges.  I guess I was being a bit too nostalgic, and no, nobody was expecting or encouraging me to shoot at a duck or goose with a pellet rifle.

Anyway, I'll track down a competent 'smith and have it checked out. Thanks again for your help everyone.

Jon


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## AJ_Dual (Jan 13, 2006)

I don't think steel shot should or could actualy scorch or scratch a barrel and chokes? It's in a plastic shot cup/wad that would prevent actual contact between the shot or the barrel. I think the problem is that the steel shot is not compressable and dosen't give like lead does when it's pushed through the forcing cone or a choke, creating a greater likelyhood of a burst or bulged barrel in a non-steel rated shotgun.

Fortunately, for waterfowling, steel shot is not the only option.

There are also Bismuth (yep, just like in Pepto-Bismol  ) shot pellets, and there are also powdered Tungsten/Polymer pellets that are acceptable as non-toxic waterfowl shot as well. A well stocked sporting goods store should carry them.

The benifits over steel are two-fold. The pellets are softer than steel, more like lead, so they're easier on barrels and chokes. They also have a higher average density than steel, giving greater range and delivered energy. Not quite as good as lead, but much closer to lead-like performance than steel.

They're pricy, but not overly so. The premium is just a couple of dollars per box over steel shotshells you wouldn't want to practice with them or shoot trap, but a trip to the patterning board and a hunting trip wouldn't run much more than a few extra dollars with the modern non-steel no-tox shotshells.


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## MoonRise (Jan 13, 2006)

The Hevi-Shot tungsten-mix shot actually is 10% denser than lead and heavier than the equivalent size lead shot due to shape and density.

They are pricey. Bismuth shells run about $1.60 - $2.20 per shell. Hevi-Shot loads run about the same. Plain lead shells run about $0.20-$0.25 for sale but big-name promo loads. Steel loads run about $0.40 per shell. That's all for 12 gauge 2-3/4 loads. Buying in case quantities will drop prices 10% or so. YMMV.

Most modern steel shotshells have thicker and bigger shot cups to minimize contact from the shot and the barrel. But I still wouldn't shoot steel in an older gun with it's softer (relatively, compared to today's barrels) barrel steel. And especially with an older shotgun with a Poly-Choke. Stick to lead or the 'softer' non-toxic shells and you should be fine.

Sure, the 12 gauge is known for being versatile. But you still have to use the right shell for the game/target. A modern fully rifled shotgun barrel with a sabot slug that has been patterned with that gun can do 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards or so. An old style slug through a smooth-bore shotgun barrel might do 5-6 inches at 50 yards. If that is sufficient, then that's all you need.

Don't get me wrong, your old Model 12 is still plenty versatile. Just use the right and appropriate shells for the target. And don't use steel shot in that gun.

After it checks out OK from a gunsmith, you can still do most everything you want to with that old 12 gauge. Except use steel shot (use the other non-toxic shells) for waterfowl or expect to shoot 2-3 inch 100 yard slug groups. You can probably still do 5-6 inch 50 yard slug groups.

Practice, pattern a buch of different shells though it (no steel!) to find out what brands and shot sizes it likes and to see what it can do with a plain slug if you want, and enjoy the old timer.

And AFAIK, duck hunting is big in Georgia.


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## WDR65 (Jan 13, 2006)

Oops, forgot the little fact about the poly-choke, though we do have one at home its on an auto and I've never used it. I don't know as much about them, but I can't see where Bismuth or Tungsten Matrix would cause issues . Also since you can adjust the poly to IC or just skeet I would think it might be ok with steel though contacting the company would be worthwhile ( I think they're still made as I was looking at putting one on one of my Model 12's). Brownell's catalog still sold them a few years ago but I haven't really looked lately. 


Honestly though as I reread this thread you might want to consider BigIron's suggestion as far as buying a more modern pump as a duck gun. Use your Model 12 for doves and upland game and another gun for steel loads. Remington 870's are great for this as well as the Mossberg 500. I have several of the 870's and I'm currently toying with a Benelli Nova pump to see if I like it even if it is as ugly as they come. You might also try an Ithaca model 37 in a later model as in the last 10 years. Ithaca has recently gone out of business but the 37 is the only modern pump that seems to feel close to the hand maching of a Model 12. It also seems to fit me similarly though I have never used one.


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## wylde21 (Jan 13, 2006)

I looked back over some reference information I have and can now state that the 1925 Model 12 you have is probably NOT chambered for 3" shells. I am 100% sure this is 2-3/4"....but have the GS check. I apologize for not researching before I wrote the above information - I was thinking of the heavy barreled Model 12s that came out in the 1930s (these were all 3"), and which I had. 

 

Also, to confirm something else stated above, the steel used in these barrels probably should not be used with steel shot (it was not the better quality nickel steel used in later year Model 12s).

 

Also, I want to clear up something stated above about the "magnum" designation. Generally, magnum does refer the powder load of the shell (with corresponding larger sized shot load): Any 12 gage shell that uses more than 3-3/4 drams of powder (4 and up is typical) is listed as "Magnum" (most standard 12 gage loads use 3-3/4 drams powder). The magnums do use a larger shot load, but the designation comes from the powder load. This info from Remington.

 

Therefore, I would recommend against not using 2-3/4" magnum shells or any 3" shells in your gun until you have a GS check it out. Sorry about the confusion.


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## WDR65 (Jan 13, 2006)

Just checked the Poly-Choke website after doing a Google search. According to their site regular Poly-Choke's are safe for steel shot though I don't think the Full and X-tra full settings would be.


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## StoneDog (Jan 13, 2006)

Thanks for going back and confirming. The more I think about this, the more I want to have it checked out and then use it for "normal" situation where magnum loads are not required.



wylde21 said:


> Also, to confirm something else stated above, the steel used in these barrels probably should not be used with steel shot (it was not the better quality nickel steel used in later year Model 12s).


 
The barrel is clearly stamped with "nickel steel" (or similar). Since you seem to have done more research than me  was nickel steel an upgrade, or did they later improve the quality of the nickel steel?

And my apologies to any Georgia duck hunters. All I hear about is deer and turkey hunting. I guess my world is a little too small.

Jon


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## BIGIRON (Jan 13, 2006)

Please don't think from my earlier posts that I was "dissing" the M12. It's one of the finest shotguns ever made. You'll find that yours, with the PolyChoke, is a great hunting and general use gun.

M12's in the higher grades sell in the 5 figures.


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## magic79 (Jan 13, 2006)

Here is a quote I found in an older article in Guns Magazine:


"The impact that steel shot had on traditional waterfowling shotguns cannot be stressed enough. Because hard steel shot lacks the easy flowing characteristics of lead shot through forcing cones and tight chokes, older guns could not handle it without some damage to their barrels. "

I'm certain I remember reading years ago that steel shot could also score the barrel on older guns.

BTW: Stone Dog, I love the lighting in the Avatar. Is that you?


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## StoneDog (Jan 13, 2006)

magic79 said:


> BTW: Stone Dog, I love the lighting in the Avatar. Is that you?


 
LOL, no that's certainly not me. It's a picture of Bruce Lee of the 60s/70s martial arts movie fame. I'm kinda wanting to change it but the new CPF doesn't seem to allow it yet.

Jon


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## bcampb7165 (Aug 20, 2021)

I have a 1925 Winchester Model 12 in 12 Guage 30" Barrel. The barrel is inscribed "Full", Nickel Steel, Checked stocks. Any idea which model?? Pigeon , Trap, Duck, Standard????? Thanks


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## bigburly912 (Aug 20, 2021)

bcampb7165 said:


> I have a 1925 Winchester Model 12 in 12 Guage 30" Barrel. The barrel is inscribed "Full", Nickel Steel, Checked stocks. Any idea which model?? Pigeon , Trap, Duck, Standard????? Thanks


I’ll send you a link with directions on how to get your type rather than post 20 different times back and forth with the info I’d need. : D


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## bcampb7165 (Aug 20, 2021)

bigburly912 said:


> I’ll send you a link with directions on how to get your type rather than post 20 different times back and forth with the info I’d need. : D


Thanks


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## bcampb7165 (Aug 20, 2021)

bcampb7165 said:


> Thanks


Checked ur link. Thanks but it really did not help with identification. It is more of a generic site. This year model of Winchester Model 12 does not fit a lot of those categories because they are later production. I know it is high end and I think Tournament Grade but it appears some modification of Buttplate/Stock to fit the current buttplate which is aftermarket. I am trying to find someone is is knowledgeable of Model 12's. Thanks again for your help. The serial no is 416xxx. As seen by the pictures it is in near mint condition for a shotgun manufactured in 1925.


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## bigburly912 (Aug 21, 2021)

Ok. It isn’t a trap or it would physically be stamped with trap so you can mark that off.
Check under the buttplate on the wood and see if it’s marked “tourn”. I’m almost 99% it’s a tourney model. If you had used the whole page I sent you you could have eliminated most models. Almost all of them have marks that give them away.



Winchester Model 12 Models






Winchester Model 12 Outline of Features


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## bcampb7165 (Aug 21, 2021)

Thanks , I did eliminate them all except the tourney. Some of the models it referenced did not get manufactured until much later. Again thanks for ur input. I learnt a lot.


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## bigburly912 (Aug 21, 2021)

Good luck with your venture! Once you get that butt plate off let us know! Regardless of what variant it is they are awesome shotguns. Enjoy it!


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