# Which currently available Eneloop battery do you prefer, and why?



## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 22, 2013)

Note: I started by posting these same thoughts on another thread, and then I realized that I was "off topic" and decided to start my own thread.

Judging from the rather strong "reactions" that I have received in other threads on this forum regarding my own (personal) decision to purchase and use only "black" Eneloops Pros: I would welcome an open (and unbiased) discussion on this new thread regarding which currently available Eneloop battery you feel is the most "useful" in the real world, and why do you feel so?

For example, I personally do not see the apparent 500 cycle "limitation" of the Pro Eneloop series as any kind of a real "limitation" at all. 

This no doubt depends upon your own particular application, but in my case, I am almost never going to fully discharge my batteries within one week, every week. 

That means that, given the 500 cycle "life" of the Black Eneloop Pro batteries that I have recently purchased, they will still last me for ten years! (Frankly, I do have all that much confidence that I will even be alive ten years from now, much less worried about whether not the batteries I purchased ten years ago are still holding their charge!)

So, in my opinion, don't be "fooled" by the numbers: How may cycles are you really going to ever realistically use?

And, is the difference between 70% capacity after five years, or 85% capacity after one year, all that important to you? (Given their much higher starting capacity, the Black Eneloop Pro batteries will always have the longest runtimes after one year. And, I suspect they would still have respectable capacity, even after five years.)

Once again, this all depends on your application, but if you are all that worried about how long your batteries will hold a charge, then I suggest you spend the money and invest in L91, and "call it a day."

But, in "reality," or in the real world, how often are you thinking that you would ever really let your batteries "go" for five years without recharging them? 

For that matter, how often are you even going to let them "go" for one year without recharging? (I am not saying that such a thing couldn't happen. I am simply asking just how often is such a thing is likely to be your primary concern?)

Even in "survival mode," all you really need is a 12v charger that will work off a car (or a car battery) in order ensure your ability to recharge your batteries. (And, if you were all that serious about it, I think you would naturally consider investing in a solar system, or a miniature waterwheel, or a miniature windmill, or some other similar technology that would allow you to recharge your batteries in a true crisis.)

In any case, I would like to further address the issues of cost, and cycles.

Once again, I fully welcome the potential for "discussion" or debate on this thread, but when it comes to the initial investment cost of any Eneloop battery, I want to know just what are we actually talking about. How important is that cost to you?

Obviously, there is always a certain "initial investment cost" when purchasing any Eneloop battery, but whatever that actual cost was, I think it becomes highly trivialized once you consider the fact that you will (hopefully) always be able to "amortize" your investment over 50, or 100, or 200 cycles. 

(And, if you ever you start thinking in terms of 500-2,100 cycles... the differences in initial investment cost truly approaches "zero.")

Anyway, that is what I think about the cost. And, as I have already written above, I have a real question about the benefits of having a high number of cycles: Just how may cycles do think you are ever going to live to "enjoy"?

Unless you truly use your flashlight for many hours every day (and I do not deny that such applications do exist), "most" people are not going to recharge their rechargeable batteries, all that often. 

But, as a matter of "marketing" Japanese battery manufacturers spend a lot of time "telling" their potential customers about how many cycles that their particular battery will last. 

And, once again, I am not saying such a user doesn't exist, but if he does exist, I am very interested in hearing his first hand experience about how he used his Eneloop battery for a 1,000 or more cycles, and how he found that that battery's performance began to fail in some catastrophic way. (Personally, I have never yet heard of such a thing.)

The reason I say that is, I honestly doubt that many of us will ever "use up" any Eneloop battery until it was truly "worn out" due to the number of cycles it was charged and recharged.

Personally, I think in terms of about "only" about 100 cycles. (And, for me, this is "enough.")

For me, that means that if I recharge my batteries every week, my batteries (whatever type they are) will easily "last" about two years. (Once again, for me, two years is "plenty.")

I do not mean to say that any of my batteries would ever be considered "trash" after only 100 cycles. What I mean to say is that any such batteries might get relegated to a less demanding application, if they were indeed ever demonstrated as being no longer capable of holding a charge near their original rated capacity. (But, in reality, I cannot see such a thing ever happening at only 100 cycles, no matter which type Eneloop I choose.)

So, my point is that whether you "invest" in standard Eneloops, or Eneloop Pros, I think that the difference in cost between the two type batteries becomes highly trivialized; so long as you assume you are really going use whichever battery type you have selected, at least a 100 charge and discharge cycles.

And, having written all the above, I am now going to attempt to keep my final conclusion as succinct as possible: *Would you rather have a bird in hand, or two in the bush?*

In other words: 

Do you really care all that much about relatively small (given amortization) price differences, and the relatively "distant" rewards of potentially long battery cycle life?

(Which, in my personal case, I doubt whether I am likely to ever live to enjoy? And, even if I did, wouldn't the cost of batteries reveal themselves to be fairly minor within the greater scheme of things?)

*Or*, would you prefer to enjoy the longest runtimes "that I know of" from an LSD NiMH battery on a "day-to-day" basis, right now? (Since you know, for certain, that you can immediately "benefit" from those longer runtimes, beginning with today?) 

In my opinion, "Let the future take care of itself." (And for me, this was not such a difficult decision to make.)

Batteries are the true lifeblood of any flashlight. Why would you ever spend tens, hundreds, or perhaps even thousands of dollars, on flashlights; and then "skimp" on the cost of their batteries? (To me, that just doesn't make any sense.)

I welcome any and all comments.


----------



## rbid1962 (Jun 23, 2013)

I have both (XX and Standard), and now I'm hessitating in which to get for my high-speed photography hobby. I'm sure that 500 recharge cycles is enough for me.. but the cost of the pro batteries is the factor I'm thinking.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Jun 23, 2013)

500 cycles at 1 per week in ~9.5 years. Even 250 cycles at 1 per week is ~5 years. This being said, I'm content with the Gen II, 1500 cycle version, because at $10/4pk delivered, the price is right. I've got Sanyo 2700s, AccuPower 2900s, Imedion 2400s and Energizer 2300 (Japan) cells, so if I need a bit more capacity, I've got those bases covered.

If and when those higher cap batteries die off, I would consider the XX Pros and their 500 cycle limit wouldn't really spook me too much.

Chris


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 23, 2013)

I realize that the price of standard Eneloop batteries, and the price of black Eneloop Pro batteries, varies dramatically from country-to-country, and from market-to-market. 

However, I think the cost amortization principle always remains the same...

Currently, in Japan, I can easily purchase standard Eneloop batteries for about $2.91 each (four pack). And, black Eneloop Pro batteries sell for "only" about $3.28 each (four pack). So, the difference is "only" $0.37 each. But, let's say, for the sake of "argument" their price was actually double. So, the difference in price would be $2.91 each.

What I trying to say is, given a price difference of even $2.91 each, but assuming you really do get to use your batteries for a least 100 charge cycles, the price difference between the two battery types translates into only $0.0291 per cycle. (And, that would go down to $0.0097 per cycle, if you were to successfully charge and discharge them 300 times.)

Do you see my point? Granted, the initial investment cost is very different: perhaps even double, in some markets (and that investment cost could be a serious obstacle for some people). But, over the long run, if you can afford to make the "investment," the price difference between the two battery types quickly becomes *highly trivial*, it seems to me.

So, I choose to enjoy the 2,450mAh (vs. 2,000mAh) capacity of the "Pro" batteries, today.


----------



## Knight_Light (Jun 23, 2013)

ChrisGarrett said:


> I'm content with the Gen II, 1500 cycle version, because at $10/4pk delivered, the price is right.


 +1


----------



## VidPro (Jun 23, 2013)

The bird in the hand. For me it is not about the price, nor about the 500 (ample) cycle ability. It is about the reliability and robustness of the cell item.
I (well "we" actually, if you account for the many people) got screwed royal via the Big Numbers catch, ooooh pick the big numbers , lots and lots, gonna be big, Bigger = Better , in many repeated scenarios the battery that tried to squeeze more stuff into the cell failed sooner. 
The ni-?? variety of cells does not fail completly (noticable), but became weak (low voltage on high load), lower capacity, and/or self discharged faster/sooner. 
Any less robust cell item will be at least slightly less reliable in the field, or when parked waiting for use. 

The reliability of the original non-xx non-pro was so high that it Changed completly the way I had to deal with rechargables, going from excessive testing, excessive re-topping, and excessive garbage, to minor testing, and much trusting over many years (even) of usage. You present that the 500 cycles is a possible issue, if that is the ONLY possible issue with a less robust cell item, then I certannly should be using more of the Big Number variety of sanyo/panasonic cell, or cells in general.
but
Unless the technology itself changes (like it has before) or that the pro is a $15 hand built precision engienered 400% purity control nano tech version, then I would use it more, instead it is "less robust" although higher capacity.

If you need a 100% guarenteed 1600ma today, tomorrow, or from that cell you forgot about , that you can 100% count on for years, the other eneloop is doing that just fine. there is no iffyness about it. If someone who has done pros for 5-10 years and tests them and they are STILL all the magic numbers presented, then i certannly would look into it. But even thier own specs say (basicly) "The big number less robust cell".

Also, reverse charge, say we take any "less robust" cell, say your magic pro version still does 2200ma on a Really bad day for it (this assumes it is "better" still by far than the reliable 2000ma). IF the cells are not all at about the SAME capacity (and after time), then that reverse charge thing comes into play quickly, add that to slightly less robust and the extra 400ma are nothing. 
Another cool thing about the 2000, time after time the discharge charateristics of the SET mean they all end very close to the same time, fixing that Series reverse charge thing.

So today my favorite is the very robust 2000, that can be forgotten, used and abused, and just short of the pro but likely to be way more reliable in the long run. If you can present that in normal use over real use (not some spec sheet) that the pro is the SAME in that reguard, then I would change.

The main testing being, after 100 cycles and Normal usage (not accelerated testing) if you set 4 or 8 of them on the shelf park for 3months , then discharged the set , would all of them "end about the same time" aka do they all have the same discharge stats in such a way as to be a matched series set , avoiding the reverse charge event?

other side factors: which can handle amps better? which one has better cell resistance? and that kind of thing? meaning If i were to switch to the higher capacity would it still be ok for a flash unit which can torture batts? Is it the right cell for a hotwire mod or other extreeme uses when it has higher cell resistance? Does it maintain the voltage under a hard load the same way?


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 23, 2013)

VidPro said:


> ...For me it is not about the price, nor about the 500 (ample) cycle ability. It is about the reliability and robustness of the cell item... (excerpted)



I see your point. While the "bigger number" of cycles is not important to me, I may be, in fact, being fooled myself by the bigger mAh number. Good point.

I guess I tend to have considerable confidence in the quality of such Sanyo/Panasonic products, but if indeed the Pro type batteries were to be demonstrated to have a high failure rate, then I too would prefer to have the more reliable standard type.

The Pro type batteries certainly do have a higher self discharge rate, so they will not hold their capacity as long as the standard type. But, as I wrote before, they start off with so much more capacity, that at the end of one year, they still have more capacity left than the standard type. (But, at some point in time, past 1 year, the standard type is going to have the most capacity left.)


----------



## InHisName (Jun 23, 2013)

Advantages as I see it of XX over regular eNeloops....
1. Lasts 25% longer
2. Handles higher current drains with more aplomb. [eNeloop easily good to 2amp draw, XX easily good to 5amp or maybe even 10amp]

NONE of my devices need those features. 
Buying the less costly fully satisfies all my devices neeeds just fine.

If any of your devices can be improved by #1 or #2 above, then XX is the battery for that useage.


----------



## braddy (Jun 23, 2013)

For me the regular eneloop for most everything because they retain power longer and will do fine in electronics that mostly sit on the shelf or infrequently used remotes, but I am thinking of buying a set of four XX for my EDC and 2 other lights (total 4 AA) that I use regularly, because they will be charged every month or two anyway, so I will benefit from the greater power.


----------



## HKJ (Jun 23, 2013)

InHisName said:


> 2. Handles higher current drains with more aplomb. [eNeloop easily good to 2amp draw, XX easily good to 5amp or maybe even 10amp]



I wonder where you get this from, in my test they had about the same capacity at 10A draw.


----------



## Chrontius (Jun 23, 2013)

Standard eneloop - I'm still running my ROP on G1 cells. (A few other lights eat G2 eneloops, however)

If I had any particular reason to buy more rechargeable AAs, I'd put the G1 cells in my remote controls and buy XXs - if what people here say about current is correct.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 24, 2013)

Perhaps I should have also pointed out sooner that I started out "from scratch" with Eneloops, just this year. So, I had the opportunity to choose between the Pro-type or the Standard-type from the very start. (And, as I have already pointed out, the price difference is only $0.37 per battery here in Japan.)

Prior to this, I was using non-LSD Panasonic Evolta NiMHs, which I had to keep recharging all the time. So, I really enjoy the fact that Eneloops don't require nearly so much charging (since they will easily hold a good charge for 12 months or more).

Anyway, I certainly agree with those who are happy/content with their current Eneloops. If I already owned Standard Eneloops, I would never suggest scrapping them, or giving them away, just so that I could switch over entirely to the new Pro Eneloops.


----------



## mactavish (Jun 24, 2013)

HKJ said:


> I wonder where you get this from, in my test they had about the same capacity at 10A draw.



That's interesting. I'll try to find the thread I was reading on a photo review site, there was a bunch of posts of folks testing NiMH batteries for their cameras and flash units. And one of the guys surprised himself with the results from testing the "regular" eneloops versus the higher capacity ones, and in the end decided to go with the regular ones, according to his tests, the flash became available to "flash" faster, and cycled quicker, one would have guessed the opposite as a flash is certainly a high drain device. The groups test mythology seems quite sound, some of the results were surprising. 

Cost was not a factor in my decision to recently buy my first batch of NiMH batteries, 16 AA & 12 AAA's. But all the reading and research I did, here and elsewhere, seemed to point to going for the regular 1800 Eneloops. I could see the advantage the "black" higher Ma Eneloops may have on paper, but overall the regular ones seemed to have the best overall results, all around. For my main purpose of replacing every single battery in all my remotes, to guard against horrible Duracell/Energizer leakage, the longer LSD was a main reason. I hope to be diligent and cycle maintain them every six months, but in many ways I plan to treat them as normal batteries. The ones for my lights will get more usage and recharges of course. The total price for all the batteries I just bought would cover the replacement cost of ONE remote control unit, assuming that remote was even available if ruined by a "spill". The original poster - OP does however make some valid points one should consider when shopping for either style bat, and examining your own needs carefully.


----------



## SaraAB87 (Jun 24, 2013)

mactavish said:


> That's interesting. I'll try to find the thread I was reading on a photo review site, there was a bunch of posts of folks testing NiMH batteries for their cameras and flash units. And one of the guys surprised himself with the results from testing the "regular" eneloops versus the higher capacity ones, and in the end decided to go with the regular ones, according to his tests, the flash became available to "flash" faster, and cycled quicker, one would have guessed the opposite as a flash is certainly a high drain device. The groups test mythology seems quite sound, some of the results were surprising.
> 
> Cost was not a factor in my decision to recently buy my first batch of NiMH batteries, 16 AA & 12 AAA's. But all the reading and research I did, here and elsewhere, seemed to point to going for the regular 1800 Eneloops. I could see the advantage the "black" higher Ma Eneloops may have on paper, but overall the regular ones seemed to have the best overall results, all around. For my main purpose of replacing every single battery in all my remotes, to guard against horrible Duracell/Energizer leakage, the longer LSD was a main reason. I hope to be diligent and cycle maintain them every six months, but in many ways I plan to treat them as normal batteries. The ones for my lights will get more usage and recharges of course. The total price for all the batteries I just bought would cover the replacement cost of ONE remote control unit, assuming that remote was even available if ruined by a "spill". The original poster - OP does however make some valid points one should consider when shopping for either style bat, and examining your own needs carefully.



This is exactly why I use eneloops. I currently only have 1 set of non LSD cells as I was having problems with some of my older cells so I tossed them into the recycling bin at Target. Right now I am sure the employees are wondering who the girl is who dumps batteries into the bin constantly.

I use them because I don't have to deal with leakage. Alkalines are expensive here as well, $7-8 for 8 pack of Duracell. Store brand not much cheaper. A pack of 4 eneloop is $10, and other brands can be found for less with store promo and coupons. I found Duraloops last year for about 7$ a pack of 4 and a month or 2 ago I got some rayovac platinum for 7$ which will be good for at least 100 charges I am sure, so when you look at the cost its just a bit more than alkalines. Then with alkalines you have to go to the store when you run out which is really inconvenient. It's even worse for AAA as those can be $5 for a 4 pack and they run out so fast so you definitely need rechargable in that case. I have bought packs of 4 AAA rechargable duracells for $5 on clearance too.


----------



## Curious_character (Jun 25, 2013)

I'm with VidPro with regard to robustness. I've been around long enough to have used some of the very first available NiCds, and everything since. When NiMH cells became available, there were some green industrial cells with 1600 mAh capacity that were extremely reliable, and actually met their capacity spec. Then the claimed capacity went up and up, and the robustness declined dramatically. The cells would work ok for a little while, then they'd begin self-discharging so fast they'd be dead sitting on the shelf for a week. And if you let them self discharge a time or two they were done for. Then Eneloops came along. Those cells are remarkably reliable, meet their specs, and just keep on tickin'. So I'm very leery of being a beta tester for the next "improved" cell, and the small capacity increase isn't enough to tempt me. I'll stay with the conventional Eneloops until I see evidence that the black ones really do deliver more capacity while retaining the reliability and robustness that the conventional Eneloops have proven they have.

And I don't get hung up on how many hundred cycles one cell or another claims. I doubt I've ever put 100 cycles on a cell, and probably never will. They've always either died from some other cause or become obsolete before that happens.


----------



## Lurveleven (Jun 25, 2013)

Most of my cells only get recharged a few times a year, so cycle number isn't that important. However, I have a baby call that is using 2 AA batteries. This has been used and recharged every day for 4.5 years (probably around 1600 times), so in this case cycle number is important.


----------



## SaraAB87 (Jun 25, 2013)

I had a pack of 4 "digital" brand batteries 1800mah that I bought at Walmart eons ago that lasted much longer than any of the higher capacity batteries claimed and that lasted years even after being abused in an old charger. For the old Nimh batteries higher capacity definitely did not equal longer life. Some manufacturers as we all know claim way more capacity than they actually deliver. I think 2000mah was the sweet spot for those batteries, probably why eneloops don't go up in capacity but work better than those batteries that claim more capacity.

I don't know about eneloop pro as I haven't tried them yet.

I don't think the amount of cycles is too important for me, because after 100-300 cycles at the most I will probably be ready to buy more batteries though I usually buy when I find them on sale but now that I have a decent collection of LSD cells I might not have to buy for a while. Anyways it's not a huge expense in the steam of things if I have to buy a new pack of 4 $7-10 cells every 4-5 years or every 100-300 cycles.

It is more important that I be able to forget the batteries for a while and they will still work when I go in my box to grab them, because the constant cycling and topping off can become a ton of work especially when you need batteries now.

Also very important that they don't leak, there is bound to be forgotten alkalines in devices in any house which could leak and lead to increased cost for device replacement, it would be better if they were forgotten lithium or eneloops which most likely would not lead to more money spent for device replacement.


----------



## N8N (Jun 25, 2013)

SaraAB87 said:


> It is more important that I be able to forget the batteries for a while and they will still work when I go in my box to grab them, because the constant cycling and topping off can become a ton of work especially when you need batteries now.
> 
> Also very important that they don't leak, there is bound to be forgotten alkalines in devices in any house which could leak and lead to increased cost for device replacement, it would be better if they were forgotten lithium or eneloops which most likely would not lead to more money spent for device replacement.



Agreed.

I just had to throw out a cheap battery powered wall clock; the AA cell in it still had enough juice that I just noticed that the clock had stopped today; however it's clearly been leaking for a while. Combine this with the fact that I just had a ~$100 laser distance finder get puked on by a different brand of cells and I'm very anti-alkaline at the moment; I can't wait until my next shipment of Eneloops gets here (hopefully tomorrow.) Not only will the cell be worth something even when it's "dead" but I don't have to worry about forgetting to check a device and finding it ruined by those damned alkalines. If it weren't for Eneloops I'd probably be using Energizer Lithiums, but they cost almost as much as the Eneloops and are one use only.


----------



## sticktodrum (Jun 25, 2013)

VidPro said:


> The bird in the hand. For me it is not about the price, nor about the 500 (ample) cycle ability. It is about the reliability and robustness of the cell item.
> I (well "we" actually, if you account for the many people) got screwed royal via the Big Numbers catch, ooooh pick the big numbers , lots and lots, gonna be big, Bigger = Better , in many repeated scenarios the battery that tried to squeeze more stuff into the cell failed sooner.
> The ni-?? variety of cells does not fail completly (noticable), but became weak (low voltage on high load), lower capacity, and/or self discharged faster/sooner.
> Any less robust cell item will be at least slightly less reliable in the field, or when parked waiting for use.
> ...




^This explains much more eloquently exactly how I feel.


----------



## StorminMatt (Jun 25, 2013)

I agree that the number of cycles is pretty unimportant. All batteries degrade with time. And if you recharge your batteries once a week, I doubt that '1000-1500 cycle Eneloops' are going to last 20-30 years. I even feel like LSD capability is somewhat overblown. Tests have shown that, when it comes to capacity, HSD batteries beat LSD batteries when it comes to capacity remaining up to a few months. And I'm really not counting on a battery to hold a full charge (or nearly a full charge) for a year or two - if I really NEED a battery to work for me (like on a camping trip), I'll charge it WELL before that time. What is MUCH more important is (as others have said) the robustness of the battery itself. Can a battery last decently long before it experiences a DRASTIC loss of capacity, higher internal resistance, or accelerated self discharge. It would seem that, for a number of years, many batteries wouldn't last over the long haul. And Eneloop 2000s (or clones like Duraloops) were the only ones that would. It is apparently for this reason that Eneloops are worshipped and set apart from others like they are around here (and other flashlight forums). And while I've never been done wrong by Eneloop 2000s, the REAL question is whether they continue to hold such a monopoly on greatness (so to speak). I personally don't think so.


Although I actually have a decent number of Duraloops, AA batteries are NOT my most-used batteries. I tend to use more D's and (especially) C's. Because there are no Eneloop C or D cells available here in the US, I use Tenergy cells. I've thus far only used the LSD Centura cells. But they have NEVER done me wrong. And believe me, I have used and abused them as much as anyone around here would use and abuse Eneloops. But I would say that they have been every bit as good as my Duraloops. I've not yet tried the HSD Premium cells. But I actually have some C cells on order to use in my C cell lights. And I actually have pretty high hopes for them.


I also have some of the Japanese made Duracell 1000mAH HSD AAA batteries. I've only been using them for a few months in my EDC penlight. But so far, so good. In the time frame in which I use them before recharging them (maybe a week or two), I DON'T notice that they are inferior to Duraloops. And the extra capacity comes in handy when I need it. Will I give away my Duraloops and replace them all with HSD Duracells? No. But if these batteries do well over the longer haul, I'll DEFINITELY get more. The same goes for the Energizer 2300 AA batteries. These have proven to be pretty good as well.


The bottom line is that it seems like battery technology has come a ways since the dreaded Energizer 2500 AA batteries. Perhaps some of the LSD technology pioneered with the Eneloop 2000s has trickled down into other batteries. Even HSD batteries seem to hold a charge and last longer than they once did. So if you want higher capacity batteries, it seems like there is no longer a reason to avoid them altogether. And if you want C and D batteries, there is no reason to use Eneloops in adaptors and put up with increased resistance and lower capacity in order to avoid bad batteries. I'm sure there are still crappy, no-name batteries out there. But good, name brand batteries all seem to have improved GREATLY in the last few years.


----------



## mactavish (Jun 25, 2013)

"StorminMatt": Don't want to go off topic, but since you use the Tenergy Centura 8000 LSD "D" batteries, if you get a chance I left a question regarding charging them in a post, not getting much love as of yet. Thanks.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...continuation&p=4231339&viewfull=1#post4231339


----------



## SaraAB87 (Jun 25, 2013)

I don't use a lot of C or D, the ones that I do use need to be replaced on average once every 2 years at the most.

Batteries discharge more as they get older but I think LSD cells are somewhat better in that respect, some of my older cells just died, they got down to like 50mah. I have some older LSD cells and that did not happen ever.

I would say the most I would need a cell to last would be 3-9 months at the very most, I am not expecting to be able to leave a cell for 3 years and still have power, but I do expect that it won't discharge fully in a week or a few days which is something I experienced with older batteries.

I do still have a few older HSD cells, I have a pack of Duracells that I got at target a couple years ago for $5, they are 1000 mah and they work fine. I also have a set of 2 Duracell 2650 which from what I understand everyone hates and hates some more, but they are working great for me! I also don't know the prior use pattern of the 2650 because I found them in a toy I got at a yard sale completely flat, I ran a refresh on my BC700 and they have been perfect ever since.


----------



## Vortus (Jun 26, 2013)

Be nice if they made a true C and D cell eneloop. Ill go with the cheaper eneloops. Do not need the bigger ones, if needing power I use C/D or lithium ion. My wife prefers the glitters. She doesn't care about the capacity.


----------



## jasonck08 (Jun 26, 2013)

Number of cycles is more important than people think. Just because it prints "500 cycles" or "1500 cycles" doesn't mean you'll see 1/2 or even 1/4 that in real world use. These cycle tests are in a lab environment with a regulated temperature, perfect charging and discharging conditions, and over a short period of time. Cells age because of a number of factors but here are a few main ones:

1) Temperature they are stored and discharged in
2) Charging method
3) Charging current and discharging current
4) Being overcharged or overdischarged
5) Age

Let's say the cells undergo some "rough" cycles. In the case where they are often discharged much under 0.8v, and stored in high temperatures like in a car glove box, etc, the 500 cycle cells may only see 100-200 cycles, where the 1500+ cycle cells may see 300-600 cycles.

You also have to consider what happens to the cell as it ages. For the 2500mAh XX eneloops, after 100 charge cycles is the resistance higher than the 2000mAh eneloops after the same 100 cycles? I'd rather not have to worry about a cell aging to the point of it being rendered useless in the life that I own it. (probably 10 years or so max before it gets lost or something).

I had some Sanyo non-LSD 2300-2700mAh AA cells and 800-1000mAh AAA's. They probably had no more than 50-100 cycles on them (rated at ~500 cycles likely). Yet after about 5 years, they were useless even after trying to restore them.

In short I'd opt for the 2000mAh cells rated at 1500+ cycles because of primarily the robustness, and the fact that they have proven themselves over years, where the 2500mAh LSD cells are more new, and we don't know how they will age with time and cycle life in "real world" applications. Also these 2000mAh cells are 1/2 the price compared to the XX's in USA.


----------



## markr6 (Jun 26, 2013)

jasonck08 said:


> I had some Sanyo non-LSD 2300-2700mAh AA cells and 800-1000mAh AAA's. They probably had no more than 50-100 cycles on them (rated at ~500 cycles likely). Yet after about 5 years, they were useless even after trying to restore them.



How many cycles did I get out of my Rayovac ic3 batteries? About 40...LOL! Yes I used the 15-minute cooker.

By the way, I love how they state "Worlds Best Rechargeable System" on the packaging. WOW! Marketing team was smoking crack at the time.


----------



## Bumble (Jun 26, 2013)

markr6 said:


> How many cycles did I get out of my Rayovac ic3 batteries? About 40...LOL! Yes I used the 15-minute cooker.
> 
> By the way, I love how they state "Worlds Best Rechargeable System" on the packaging. WOW! Marketing team was smoking crack at the time.



LOL ... probably the same team who come up with the figures for cr*pfire flashlights...batteries + chargers.


----------



## StorminMatt (Jun 26, 2013)

Speaking of cycle life between higher and lower capacity batteries (like the Eneloop and Eneloop XX), one thing to consider is that, with a smaller capacity battery, you inevitably NEED for available cycles. The quicker a battery drains, the more often it needs to be recharged for a given amount of use. I realize that, in the case of the Eneloop 2000 vs Eneloop XX, this isn't proportional to the capacity of the battery. But when given the calendar life of the battery and the fact you will probably NEVER cycle a battery more than a few hundred times, this is certainly something to consider.


----------



## apagogeas (Jun 27, 2013)

Its all about what we value mostly. XX/Pro have the benefit of more capacity (for as long as it is there anyway). Regular eneloops excel in everything else except capacity to begin with. If the application truly benefits from the increased capacity, then XX is the way to. For anything else, I see regular Eneloops fit the bill better due to their better overall characteristics.
Also, indeed someone might not use all the available cycles - it will be unrealistic for most applications anyway. As correctly stated, cells will degrade possibly well before that indicated cycle so I treat this cycle indicator as a direct measurement of what the battery can withstand in terms of abuse, since most batteries die prematurely due to abuse and not by normal usage. Higher capacity cells are simply more fragile to begin with. Finally, if we want to compare the total cost between regular and XX, we have to take into account that e.g. a regular one will be replaced let's say after 500 cycles whilst an XX probably sooner i.e. at 250 cycles, also taking into account the more capacity per cycle for XX. That means, when we buy our 2nd set of regular eneloops, we'll buying our third set of XX's. This wasn't taken into account at the initial post so the cost difference results might not be that trivial but I honestly don't think the case is the overall cost, it is mostly the reliability aspect and XX's don't have that long history yet to indicate they are at least close to regular eneloops robustness.


----------



## jonathanluu2 (Jun 27, 2013)

I value capacity most. I like having the extra runtime between battery changes, even if it is a smaller percentage. I got the XX's as a birthday present (you can imagine the odd, eyebrow raising when I asked for a *particular type* of rechargable battery. Or perhaps not, if your light addiction is well established with your family.)

I use them in a AA headlamp around the house. Should a catastrophic cell failure occur, i have 3 more sitting on a shelf ready to go. I do not quite see the significance of robustness as a discerning factor, as any Panny will excel above any other rechargable, regardless of type. But perhaps comparatively speaking, the regular, eneloops are more robust than the XX's. I suppose my XX's are robust enough for my use.

Valid point on the cycles. There are definitely fewer available for the XX's. But birthdays and Christmas come once a year, and i think that will be enough to keep my inventory fresh. 
:santa:


----------



## StorminMatt (Jun 27, 2013)

jonathanluu2 said:


> Valid point on the cycles. There are definitely fewer available for the XX's. But birthdays and Christmas come once a year, and i think that will be enough to keep my inventory fresh.
> :santa:



Good point. And when it all comes down, even if you have to buy your own batteries, they're pretty cheap in the grander scheme of things. I'm certainly not going to be distraught because a set of AA (or any other size) batteries lasts only two years instead of four (if higher capacity batteries like the Eneloop XX or Tenergy Premium truly are this short-lived). It's not like they cost $200. As stated, there are times where you can't recharge your batteries and capacity REALLY matters. For situations like these, spending a few bucks for batteries that might not be usable in four years is worth it. And that's assuming these batteries really are as bad as people say they are.


----------



## bwm (Jun 27, 2013)

Shortly after the XXX eneloops came out I bought a 4 pack to use in my Zebralight headlamps. I had previously been using the regular eneloops. Well, over the course of a year charging each battery roughly once every three days I had 3 of the 4 batteries fail to charge in my Maha C9000 charger. I definitely got longer runtimes with the XXX's but my 2006 manufacture date eneloops are all still reliable after having them for about 6 years.

What I noticed was that the internal resistance of the XXX's would increase with time.


----------



## N8N (Jun 28, 2013)

bwm said:


> Shortly after the XXX eneloops came out I bought a 4 pack to use in my Zebralight headlamps.



Talk to me about these cells... are they the 151 proof version or are they the ones without wrappers? Either way this is pertinent to my interests :0


----------



## chucku (Jun 30, 2013)

Firstly I would like to thank you all for the thoughtful posts on this thread (and forum). As a result I have decided to standardize on the 2000mAh Eneloops. 

There is one other factor that I thought was important in my decision that has not been brought up in this thread yet. That is the benefit of standardizing on exactly one type of battery instead of "horses for courses", e.g. XX for high drain and normals for normal and even Lites for remotes etc. I have a couple of devices that use 8 & 10 AAs each (a telescope and an antenna analyzer for those that need to know (like me )). Clearly you want all the cells to be of the same type and ideally pretty close to each other in measured capacity. If you want to ensure that you have spares ready to go you are suddenly talking about a substantial inventory of cells at least if you have to keep to a budget like me . 

Is this an issue that other people have come across?


----------



## N8N (Jun 30, 2013)

Sort of, I have a Fenix TK41 which uses 8xAAs which is a substantial portion of my AA collection...

right now I have 8x Maha Imedions in it, just 'cause I wanted to try something different... but all my other batteries are regular Eneloops... I just put the last of the AAAs in the charger this morning, I've bought 20 of them so far and I have *NO* spares! and I'm a guy who tries to avoid battery powered gadgets whenever possible, this is all just flashlights (only one AAA), clocks, remote controls, and a laser distance finder that I used to use for my last job. I think I only am using 13x AAs at last count, 8 of which are in my TK41.


----------



## mactavish (Jun 30, 2013)

I just had an odd issue pop up. All my Eneloops are the latest 1800 mAh AA/AAA versions, until the Panasonic branded 2100's are more available. Anyways, I just bought a new air conditioner, it's a Friedrich, same brand and kind as the one in my bedroom, which is 3 years old, that one has a little remote that takes TWO AA bats. The Eneloop AA's work fine. This new AC for the living-room, while a bit larger in cooling power and runs off of 220 volts, is the same design, except they changed the "remote", it now takes a SINGLE AA battery.

The AC manual for both units say, "do not use rechargeable batteries". Not sure why, it does not say, but again, the TWO battery remote works fine. The NEW remote had NO range with the "single" Eneloop's AA in it. So I decided to try an Energizer Lithium in it, and NOW it has the proper wireless range. I have always "assumed" a remote control is a low powered, low draw device, but perhaps in this case, the voltage of 1.2 of the Eneloops versus the 1.5 of the regular Lithium Energizers is the difference, doubt the mAh difference would matter. Wondering if the Eneloop XX versions would make a difference in this remote or not? Just an odd ball thing I guess.


----------



## Curious_character (Jun 30, 2013)

"Don't use rechargeable batteries" seems to be a pretty common qualification, and I'm not sure why. The 1.5 vs. 1.2 volt issue isn't usually the reason see http://eznec.com/Amateur/1.5_vs_1.2_Volt_Batteries.pdf. LED Maglites for example say not to use rechargeable batteries, but they actually work better with rechargeables for reasons explained in the referenced document. I have some expensive aviation headsets with the same limitation, but have been using Eneloops in them with just fine performance and battery life. So the only rational reason I can see for the limitation is that average consumers might try to use old or defective rechargeable batteries or fail to charge them properly, then blame the device manufacturer when it doesn't work well. Or maybe the device manufacturer has some kind of deal with Duracell or Energizer?

I do have one low current device (an indoor/outdoor thermometer) that craps out at around 1.27 volts, but that's unusual and a lousy design. I've been using "1.5 volt" lithium cells in it because of their even higher voltage so I can get some decent battery life from the thermometer.

c_c


----------



## mactavish (Jul 1, 2013)

Yeah, that's why I say it's "odd", I just got into the whole Eneloop deal, for a few flashlights, but more to avoid battery leakage "energizer/duracell" etc., in all my remotes, and I have too dam many. All the other remotes seem to work fine from the same distances as before with Eneloops in them. Perhaps the main issue in this case, is the first remote, now 3 years old, had two AA's, and perhaps to save money they changed it to a single AA battery (can't imagine they saved much in "plastic"), though the voltage would still be the same, maybe the two battery remote, is able to drive the emitter better. I have no clue, but am certain that the range test I did was about a 50% loss in the effectiveness in the distance it would work, or control the AC unit. No big deal, it is the only remote I have to put standard batteries in, just thought it was strange.


----------



## pfwag (Jul 1, 2013)

Anybody have any data or experience on the low temperature (-25C) operation of Enerloop batteries, or any NiMH batteries for that matter?


----------



## N8N (Jul 1, 2013)

I will this winter, I'm using them in the remote temp sender for my weather station. Right now, they are working fine in *hot* weather, but it's only been a month or so.


----------



## bwm (Jul 3, 2013)

N8N said:


> Talk to me about these cells... are they the 151 proof version or are they the ones without wrappers? Either way this is pertinent to my interests :0



They have wrappers. The model number is HR-3UWXA


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Jul 3, 2013)

bwm said:


> They have wrappers. The model number is HR-3UWXA



Sorry, bwm, but N8N's humor seems to have gone over your head. We know that they have wrappers. He was just poking a little fun at you because you wrote "XXX eneloops" (where I am sure you meant to write "XX eneloops"). I think N8N was just inquiring as to just what sort of "truly exotic" batteries you might be in possession of... none of us ever having heard of those "XXX eneloops" before.


----------



## ALW248 (Jul 5, 2013)

StorminMatt said:


> The bottom line is that it seems like battery technology has come a ways since the dreaded Energizer 2500 AA batteries. Perhaps some of the LSD technology pioneered with the Eneloop 2000s has trickled down into other batteries. Even HSD batteries seem to hold a charge and last longer than they once did. So if you want higher capacity batteries, it seems like there is no longer a reason to avoid them altogether. And if you want C and D batteries, there is no reason to use Eneloops in adaptors and put up with increased resistance and lower capacity in order to avoid bad batteries. I'm sure there are still crappy, no-name batteries out there. But good, name brand batteries all seem to have improved GREATLY in the last few years.



Which non-LSD NiMH are good? I actually want non-LSD, instead of Eneloop. But it seems that Energizers, etc., all switched to LSD. Too bad.


----------



## StorminMatt (Jul 6, 2013)

ALW248 said:


> Which non-LSD NiMH are good? I actually want non-LSD, instead of Eneloop. But it seems that Energizers, etc., all switched to LSD. Too bad.



A couple of things. First of all, I'm not sure if the Energizer 2300 AA batteries are LSD. There doesn't seem to be a general consensus on this. On the other hand, they DO have significantly higher capacity vs Eneloops/Duraloops. And they also seem like pretty good batteries. Even if they're not technically LSD, they seem to do a good job holding a charge. At least in the short term (ie a month or two). But perhaps most importantly, like I said, it seems like many good non-LSD batteries are getting better and better at holding a charge. No, they may not have anything left in them after six months to a year. But within the time frame of a couple of months, they still have LOTS of capacity left. Like I said before, it takes more than three months before a 10000mAH Tenergy Premium D self discharges to the capacity of a Tenergy Centura.

As far as brands, I would just look for a good name. The Japanese made Energizer 2300s and Japanese made Duracell 2450s appear to be good quality Sanyo cells. Also, Tenergy Premiums are good. But apparently, lots of people have had poor luck with the plain old blue Tenergy batteries.


----------



## espresso (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm recharging every day and my last XX lasted below 200 cycles. I would say around 160 if I had to guess but it was definitely below 200. After this number of cycles, XX had 1800 mAh and increased resistance. There was a significant voltage drop on higher loads and the battery wouldn't charge in fast chargers. It was used in a wireless mouse, charged at 600mA every day with occasional refreshing. The discharge current probably wasn't more than 250mA.

Now I use only regular Eneloops in applications that require frequent charging because I saw that advertised 500 cycles really don't mean much in everyday use. Cycle life can be used for comparison between batteries maybe but not as a real estimate how long your batteries will last. With regular use, cycle life is most likely to be multiple times less than advertised. And I see so many people taking the exact cycle life in their calculations here.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Jul 6, 2013)

espresso said:


> I'm recharging every day and my last XX lasted below 200 cycles. I would say around 160 if I had to guess but it was definitely below 200. After this number of cycles, XX had 1800 mAh and increased resistance...[excerpted]



Thank you for this very specific information, based on your first hand experience.

I confess that I am very new to Eneloops, and still trying to learn. Can you, or others on the forum with a better understanding of LSD battery chemistry, translate your first hand experience into what is likely to happen when the same battery is charged much less frequently? In other words, as a novice, it seems to me that "charging every day" might be harder on a battery, than charging only once a week. If that is at all true, might the black XX (or Pro) Eneloops last a bit longer, if treated a bit more gently?

In any case, as I have already mentioned in earlier posts on this thread, even 100 cycles will likely be more than adequate for my personal needs. 100 cycles will give me nearly 2 years of service, even in my "charge-once-a-week" (high demand?) applications. Many, if not most, of my Pro Eneloop batteries are going into seldom used flashlights, emergency lights, and other applications where they are not likely to be recharged much more often than once a year (in those applications 100 cycles = 100 years!).

You may wonder why I even bother with Eneloops, but in Japan, even the black Eneloop Pro is cheaper than a Lithium primary cell. I used to use non-LSD Ni-MH (Panasonic Evolta) and they were good batteries, but their self-discharge rate drove me crazy. All those "seldom used flashlights, emergency lights, and other applications" had to be kept charged on a regular basis, or else they were not useful when needed.

By the way, interestingly enough, wireless mice, wireless keyboards, remote controls, alarm clocks, electronic thermometers, electronic scales, etc. are the very applications where I am now using my old Evolta batteries. I just run them until the device is dead, and pop in another "fresh" set and keep on going. (Or relatively "fresh" set, depending how long those "fresh" batteries have been laying around since their last recharge.) Such devices seem to use so little power that I never seem to have to replace their batteries very often. 

Alarm clocks and other devices with displays seem to "fade" (grow so dim that they are hard to read), so I seem to get ample warning before the device actually quits working. Mice, keyboards and remote controls, do "suddenly" quit working, but as I said, I always have some sort of replacements handy. (Worst case, I can always "rob" something nearby.)


----------



## espresso (Jul 7, 2013)

> what is likely to happen when the same battery is charged much less frequently?


Hi. I think that the battery doesn't care. It even prefers frequent charges which "keeps the chemistry alive" as people like to say. 
I wouldn't consider everyday charge as aggresssive in a way that high current charge is aggressive. It simply means that the battery will reach it's cycle life quicker.
However, charge/discharge current, temperature and the level of overcharge play a vital role in prolonging battery life. 
There's a chart around here that shows how much Eneloop cycle life suffers when charged at 1C, it falls down to 500 cycles or so.

P.S.
Found it 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...MH-Batteries&p=3072318&viewfull=1#post3072318
We can see the consistent performance up to 200 cycles and a very steep decline starting at around 250 cycles. I'd say the battery isn't good beyond 300 cycles in this situation.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Jul 7, 2013)

apagogeas said:


> ...Finally, if we want to compare the total cost between regular and XX, we have to take into account that e.g. a regular one will be replaced let's say after 500 cycles whilst an XX probably sooner i.e. at 250 cycles, also taking into account the more capacity per cycle for XX. That means, when we buy our 2nd set of regular eneloops, we'll buying our third set of XX's. This wasn't taken into account at the initial post so the cost difference results might not be that trivial but I honestly don't think the case is the overall cost, it is mostly the reliability aspect and XX's don't have that long history yet to indicate they are at least close to regular eneloops robustness...[excerpted]



Your point about cost is well taken. And, while I realize that your final point goes more to the issue of "robustness," since I had a bit too much free time on my hands, I decided to attempt to model the costs in a bit more detail. Here are my results:

First, just to be clear, I am taking the Standard Eneloop (4th Gen.) and comparing them to the Eneloop Pro (3rd Gen.) which are the two types that are currently available here in Japan.

Their stated maximum capacities are 1900mAh and 2400mAh, and their stated maximum number of cycles is 2100 and 500, respectively. Without taking any loss factors into account, a 500mA load should yield 3.8hrs and 4.8hrs, respectively. Meaning, that if the Eneloop Pro manages to function with good performance (reasonable performance?) for 100 cycles, then the Standard Eneloop, used in the same application must be cycled approximately 126 times to achieve the same aggregate runtime.

Now, for the time being, I am assuming a recharge cycle of once per week (52 times per year) for the Eneloop Pro, which translates into 66 times per year for the Standard Eneloop, since it must be recharged that much more often to achieve the same aggregate runtime.

Also for the time being, I am assuming that the maximum useful life of both batteries is the same (when expressed as a percentage of the stated maximum number of cycles). In this case, I am using 20% for both cells: 100 cycles for the Pro Eneloop, and 420 cycles for the Standard Eneloop. (I recognize that this is a highly questionable assumption, and the Standard Eneloop may likely have a longer useful life, even when expressed as a percentage, but we will get to that later.)

The cost of a Standard Eneloop cell in my market is about $2.91. And an Eneloop Pro costs about $3.28 (or 12.7% "differential", meaning $0.37 more). But, since I know that Eneloop Pros can cost "double" in some markets, I am also doing the same calculation for an Eneloop Pro that might cost $5.82 (or 100.0% "differential", meaning $2.91 more).

If you assume (for the time being) that Standard Eneloops are good for "only" 420 cycles, at 66 recharges per year, that translates into 6.4 years. And over the course of that same 6.4 years, if you choose to use Eneloop Pros, you will find yourself replacing your Eneloop Pros 2.3 more times to achieve the life of the Standard Eneloop. (In other words, 1 x Standard Eneloop = 3.3 x Eneloop Pros.)

Now finally getting to "total" cost: with the 12.7% price differential, the Eneloop Pros will cost you a "total" of $10.90 each, over the course of those 6.4 years. And, at a 100% price differential, they will cost you a "total" of $19.35 each. (Without taking inflation, or other similar factors into account)

Granted, this may not be an insignificant amount of money, yet it is over a *6.4 year* period.

And, as has been a significant reason behind my originally starting this thread, when viewed in terms of *cost per cycle*, the costs are $0.007 per cycle for the Standard Eneloop, and $0.026 per cycle for the Eneloop Pro (12.7% price "differential") and $0.046 per cycle (100% price "differential"): _neither of which strike me as unduly burdensome.

_Anyway, I also "fooled around" with the numbers some. Best I can tell, changing discharge rates, or frequency of recharging has no real effect. (If you are a heavy user of batteries, you will find yourself spending more on batteries over time.)

But, having read the many well considered posts in this threat, I too, am concerned about the ultimate "robustness" of the Eneloop Pro. So, I do feel it may be unfair to the Standard Eneloop to use the same 20% of stated maximum number of cycles to reflect their true useful life.

So, I tried using 30% (or 630 cycles) and even 40% (or 840 cycles), with the result of their battery life being extended to 9.6 years and 12.8 years, respectively. (I honestly don't see myself being worried about batteries that I purchased in 2013, when it gets to be 2025... do you? (I realize, of course, some people do recharge very frequently, but I believe most people don't.)

Anyway, the cost per cycle of the Standard Eneloop drops off to $0.005 and $0.003, respectively. But, since their number of useful cycles is being held constant, the Eneloop Pros still cost "only" $0.046 per cycle, even though you must purchase 6.7 times as many (given the 40%) scenario above, over a 12.8 year period. (Don't forget, you get the automatic "added bonus" of having 5.7 --less than perfect, but probably still "useful?"-- batteries laying around.)

I guess, what I am really trying to say (again) is: _"Isn't it worth a nickle per cycle to you, to get use the battery of your choice on a daily basis?" _

In my opinion, the cost of batteries (no matter which type you decide to buy) seems like a fairly minor cost when compared to what most people spend on food and drink, or putting gas in their car. Yet, I see them as equal necessities. (So, why "scrimp" on batteries?) I like the longer runtimes of the Eneloop Pro. Especially, the longer runtimes at the end of one year without recharging.

But, I will add this: Having read everyone's posts, if I find my Eneloop Pros failing suddenly, and/or catastrophically, I will be the first to go out and purchase me some "tried-and-true" Standard Eneloops (assuming the 4th Gen. is a good as the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd have apparently been). 

In the meantime, I have tried to start off "right" with my new Eneloop Pros, and I am using my new MAHA MH-C9000 to perform Break-In and Refresh-Analyze on them "out of the package." And, I am keeping accurate records. So, in a few years, I should be able to report my own experiences.

In the meantime, if you managed to get to the end of this... Thanks for listening!


----------



## mesa232323 (Jul 7, 2013)

I currently own the 1900 MAH cells. They go through extreme abuse being double triple and even quadruple charged by accident. I charge my cells 5 times a week for the last 6 months and let them get drained to nothing while forgetting about the lights still running. I pull around 3 amps through my cells with the Welch Allyn 1164 bulb and let the cells get very hot while in the process. Those cells rock and seem to have better capacity now then when they were new. White label with 1900 MAH capacity are the only Sanyo batteries I've ever owned so I've never had a chance to stress test any other models.


----------



## apagogeas (Jul 7, 2013)

Rosoku Chikara said:


> Your point about cost is well taken...



There are a lot of assumptions in your analysis although it is detailed and draws some useful conclusions. The cost might be insignificant if we talk for a single set of 4 batteries over the course of 6.4 years. If you have many devices that rely on such batteries then it might be a considerable amount to think about when replacing all these will come 3.3 times sooner. The bottom line is, if we don't really need that extra capacity, why someone would invest in XX which is worse in every other aspect compared to regular ones? I don't say XX is rubbish of course, far from that, I simply say there is a cheaper and even better battery out there to use if capacity isn't crucial. And I believe you'll throw many more XX's before giving up a regular eneloop, quite sooner than you actually believe: higher capacity = fragile cell.


----------



## SaraAB87 (Jul 7, 2013)

I am pretty sure it's cheaper in the USA to get a pack of eneloops over a pack of energizer lithiums for example. Unless you really have an application where lithium is absolutely necessary, in that case you are stuck with them. The eneloops would yield much more capacity since they can be recharged for about the same cost as lithiums that can't be recharged.

The only way it would be good to get lithiums is if you can find them cheaply and perhaps put them in a device like a remote where they won't need to be changed for a while, this way you can save a set of Rechargables for the things that drain more heavily. I found some phone chargers on clearance for $2 that contained energizer lithiums in the packaging so I bought those, $4 for 4 lithiums isn't too shabby when they run $9-10 a pack for 4 here. This is what I do with my lithiums, I don't ever have to worry about my remotes leaking now!

If you bought other brands of Rechargables with coupons Iike the rayovac platinum for $10 with a $3 coupon you could further reduce the cost of Rechargables from the lithiums thus making them more economical than lithium even if you were to toss the cells after 100 cycles. If it costs $7 for rayovac platinum and $9-10 for energizer lithium it would be cheaper to get the rayovac platinum.

Of course I am also assuming that the user does not want to use alkalines due to leakage or other reasons, which would be me.


----------



## ALW248 (Jul 10, 2013)

StorminMatt said:


> I'm not sure if the Energizer 2300 AA batteries are LSD. There doesn't seem to be a general consensus on this.



Old Energizer 2300 might be non-LSD. New ones are pre-charged. Pre-charging can cause severe damage to non-LSD, if they are not sold and used in, e.g, a month.

For capacity, I want the lowest that would last me one day. I can recharge at the end of the day. 

If I want LSD, Eneloop Lite is best for me. But if they are not easily available, 1500x Eneloop would be fine.

But they do not sound as energetic as non-LSD NiMH in my audio devices. My theory is that LSD makes them slightly slower in supplying pulse discharge.

So I am looking for good quality non-LSD. High capacity NiMH above 2000mAh are not very robust. It is not that unlikely that one cell in a pack of four can be damaged within half a year.

Eneloop Pro claims the same as non-LSD, 500x.

What I want most is non-LSD low capacity cells, below 2000mAh. But if I can not find any, I can live with high capacity ones. I just need to pay some attention to the charging display of voltage and mAh, to spot the bad cells.

Eneloop below 2000mAh provide more peace of mind. But since they don't sound good in my audio devices, I have to look for something else.


----------



## Marc999 (Sep 6, 2013)

I have a few simple needs for batteries: 

In my case, 2 handheld Garmin GPS devices, a point 'n shoot Canon camera and 3 flashlights. A scattering of remote controls and alarm clocks. 

I haven't bought batteries in over 2-2.5 years and don't see the need anytime soon. 
I have 1 set of the Eneloop XX (Pros) and a bunch of Eneloop 1st & 2nd gen batteries and a few off-branded equivalents. 

Regular Eneloops @ Thomas Dist. are now $12.50 more or less, for a 4-pack + shipping. The last time I looked at that website was when they were $9.99. I could have sworn I last looked at the site ~ 6 months ago, which is quite a hefty increase.
Eneloop XX are now $21 + shipping of course, 
Locally? Regular Eneloops - $20.00 for 4-AA or 4-AAA. Eneloop XX $25.00 
I'm not sure what's happened but in my opinion these prices are ridiculous. I'm glad I stocked up when I did.

If you're in need of extra juice, sure may as well pay the $5.00 premium, considering the smaller gap between the two.
If you can find regular eneloops cheaper, then no I don't think the XX would be worth it, unless you're a professional photographer...even then.


----------



## Marc999 (Sep 6, 2013)

I have a few simple needs for batteries: 

In my case, 2 handheld Garmin GPS devices, a point 'n shoot Canon camera and 3 flashlights. A scattering of remote controls and alarm clocks. 

I haven't bought batteries in over 2-2.5 years and don't see the need anytime soon. 
I have 1 set of the Eneloop XX (Pros) and a bunch of Eneloop 1st & 2nd gen batteries and a few off-branded equivalents. 

Regular Eneloops @ Thomas Dist. are now $12.50 more or less, for a 4-pack + shipping. The last time I looked at that website was when they were $9.99. I could have sworn I last looked at the site ~ 6 months ago, which is quite a hefty increase.
Eneloop XX are now $21 + shipping of course, 
Locally? Regular Eneloops - $20.00 for 4-AA or 4-AAA. Eneloop XX $25.00 
I'm not sure what's happened but in my opinion these prices are ridiculous. I'm glad I stocked up when I did.

If you're in need of extra juice, sure may as well pay the $5.00 premium, considering the smaller gap between the two.
If you can find regular eneloops cheaper, then no I don't think the XX would be worth it, unless you're a professional photographer...even then.


----------



## N8N (Sep 6, 2013)

Right now in the US, Maha Imedion AAs are available from Thomas Distributing for less than standard Eneloops. They might not last as long because they're probably more comparable to an Eneloop XX, but more power argh argh argh and I can't seem to find anything *less* expensive other than the Tenergy Centura AAs, and the Duraloops which are depleted in my area.

I would feel better if they had the familiar Eneloop name on them, but I've already been using the Imedions in my TK41 with no apparent issues... I actually haven't run them out the first time yet, but I don't use that light as often as some of my others either.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Sep 6, 2013)

N8N said:


> Right now in the US, Maha Imedion AAs are available from Thomas Distributing for less than standard Eneloops. They might not last as long because they're probably more comparable to an Eneloop XX, but more power argh argh argh and I can't seem to find anything *less* expensive other than the Tenergy Centura AAs, and the Duraloops which are depleted in my area.
> 
> I would feel better if they had the familiar Eneloop name on them, but I've already been using the Imedions in my TK41 with no apparent issues... I actually haven't run them out the first time yet, but I don't use that light as often as some of my others either.



Just an FYI:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ut-Eneloops-GP-ReCyKos-and-Imedions-it-s-done!

Chris


----------



## mikekoz (Sep 8, 2013)

I value capacity over how many times a cell can be recharged. I have no way of knowing how many times a battery has been recharged and am not sure how you would keep track of it! Is charging a battery when it is only say 50% down be considered a full charge cycle? I also believe you will be old and gray by the time these batteries kick the bucket! I have some AA NIMH cells made by Rayovac and Kodak that are probably about 6 years old and they are still going strong! Considering they are considered inferior cells by most, the Eneloops should do even better. So to me, the charging cycles rating is just a number. I have a mixture of Eneloops and Duraloops that I have bought when they were on sale, and I have a bunch of them still in the package. I have never used the Eneloop XXX cells but have recently started buying the new Duracell 2400 MAH "ion core" cells being sold at Walmart and Target. Rumor has it they may be rebranded XXX's, but I have no idea. I buy all my AA rechargeables from brick and mortar stores, so most are not Eneloops. Wolf Camera was the only place I shopped at that sold them and they are gone! Considering they are the "best" you can buy, they are marketed very poorly.


----------



## Dirtbasher (Sep 9, 2013)

I value the LSD , nothing worse than picking up a Light with 20% life in the batteries, eneloops stay charged .....that's why I use them.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Sep 9, 2013)

mikekoz said:


> I value capacity over how many times a cell can be recharged.



Then you might want to try some of the AccuPower 2900s, PowerEx 2700s and Sanyo 2700s.

They're HSDs and probably in the 300-500 cycle lifespan class, but they do have more capacity and if you're using them and charging them back up on a daily/weekly basis, you won't have to worry about the cells self-discharging too much.

When I joined this site, I bought a hodge-podge of quality HSD and LSD cells and I can see each's place in my battery stable, but at some point, I got too many batteries for all of my devices and so many of them will sit as I rotate through them. 

In an emergency, say...from a hurricane, or general power outage, those HSD cells that have been sitting, might not be all that great if they're at 50% after a few months. This is where the LSDs will obviously shine--you can forget about them for years and they will still work. The hi-cap HSDs listed above, not so much so.

If you can buy dozens and dozens of batteries, then you probably don't have to worry about some of them dying on you prematurely, as you can replace them without a care. For me, I'm good on HSD/LSD cells for a few years, or at least until some of them start dropping below 80% of rated capacity and get recycled.

Chris


----------



## mikekoz (Sep 9, 2013)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Then you might want to try some of the AccuPower 2900s, PowerEx 2700s and Sanyo 2700s.
> 
> They're HSDs and probably in the 300-500 cycle lifespan class, but they do have more capacity and if you're using them and charging them back up on a daily/weekly basis, you won't have to worry about the cells self-discharging too much.
> 
> ...




Thanks! I actually have some of the Powerex 2700's and they work great! I will look into the others.


----------



## markr6 (Sep 9, 2013)

SilverFox did a test in a thread somewhere (I can't find it). After a year? the voltage was still quite high, so I'm in no way worried about the discharge of my 18650s. Yes, they'll wear faster stored at 4.15v or so, but you just need to decide what's right for your use.


----------



## StorminMatt (Sep 9, 2013)

ChrisGarrett said:


> In an emergency, say...from a hurricane, or general power outage, those HSD cells that have been sitting, might not be all that great if they're at 50% after a few months. This is where the LSDs will obviously shine--you can forget about them for years and they will still work. The hi-cap HSDs listed above, not so much so.



Contrary to the belief of many here, HSD batteries can certainly have their place. Although many people say they're no good in emergencies, there are certain emergencies in which they work well. Maybe an unexpected power outage isn't o e of them. But you generally know about a hurricane at least a few days before it comes. This is PLENTY of time to make sure your batteries are charged. I mean, even if they're LSD, you're probably not going to take chances and figure something that's been sitting for months is going to be fully charged, are you? And even HSD batteries are going to hold more useful charge over a period of a few weeks than LSD batteries. In situations where you actually anticipate the need for batteries, higher capacity batteries can actually be very useful.


----------



## Etsu (Sep 9, 2013)

Depends what you mean by high capacity. The only NiMH cells that have ever completely died on me were (very) high capacity cells. And, they all died. Other than those, I still have almost all my old NiMH cells, some almost 15 years old! I don't use them much, but they still work. Most I've stuck in solar lights where they get abused, but still work.

I'd never want to trust a very high capacity NiMH cell anymore.


----------



## Wrend (Sep 9, 2013)

Regular current generation/available Eneloops, AA and AAA.

Reasons:

Cost for capacity per charge and cumulative lifetime capacity potential including good performance, sustained usability, and low self-discharge. All my Eneloops are still performing in the "like new" range, including the first gen. ones I have, which by now are (off the top of my head) somewhere between four and five years old.

I leave them changed in series cell sets that only get used together and recharged at the same time. This way I just swap them out with depleted sets and never have to wait for them to charge, having extra sets ready to use.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Sep 9, 2013)

StorminMatt said:


> Contrary to the belief of many here, HSD batteries can certainly have their place. Although many people say they're no good in emergencies, there are certain emergencies in which they work well. Maybe an unexpected power outage isn't o e of them. But you generally know about a hurricane at least a few days before it comes. This is PLENTY of time to make sure your batteries are charged. I mean, even if they're LSD, you're probably not going to take chances and figure something that's been sitting for months is going to be fully charged, are you? And even HSD batteries are going to hold more useful charge over a period of a few weeks than LSD batteries. In situations where you actually anticipate the need for batteries, higher capacity batteries can actually be very useful.



First of all, I own two quads of AccuPower 2900s and two quads of the Sanyo 2700s, so as I said in my post that you only partially quoted, HSD batteries have their place in my inventory, but they do discharge way more quickly and if you're not a battery geek, where you're removing your batteries from their storage boxes and testing them with a DMM once a month, you might get into trouble with them, by waiting.

Remove "hurricane" and replace with 'earthquake,' since you're in NorCal and you might not have time to 'top off your batteries' before the big one hits. In this scenario and being a casual user, having HSDs might not be such a great idea, was kind of my point. 

I did a one year test using Eneloop Gen 2s, GP ReCyKos and Imedions, so I know what's left after 365 days, with those common LSD brands. Maybe I should do a test with my HSDs and see what's left, but I doubt it would be much after even six months.

Chris


----------



## uk_caver (Sep 10, 2013)

Personally, I stick with standard Eneloops (and a few cheaper LSDs of similar capacity), since they're enough for most of my uses and seem definitely durable, and if I was doing something likely to risk running a set flat, I'd take a spare set.
Once spares get involved, the maths rarely seems to favour higher capacity cells unless capacity was _much_ higher or the price difference was minimal.

Past experience with other brands of HSD cells does bias me towards 2000-ish cells in terms of ruggedness.
Possibly the Eneloop 2500s are different, but it would take a few people really giving them a hard time and reporting no problems to start to make me less wary, and even then, they seem poor value for money.


----------



## Etsu (Sep 10, 2013)

Wrend said:


> All my Eneloops are still performing in the "like new" range, including the first gen. ones I have, which by now are (off the top of my head) somewhere between four and five years old.



I bought my first Eneloops back in 2006, and they're still working like-new. They can still take a 1C charge without getting hot, so I don't see any sign of internal resistance building up.

That said, I'm still using (non LSD) NiMH cells that are more than 5 years older than that. My feeling is that NiMH cells stand up very well over time, as long as they're not high-capacity. It seems when the manufacturer goes for maximum capacity, they severely limit how long they will last.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Sep 10, 2013)

What charger have you been using, the life of nimh battery can be down to the charger you use, as Silver Fox says nimh dont die they are killed.

John.


----------



## Yoda4561 (Sep 11, 2013)

I'll take the standard high durability eneloops. What do I want out of a rechargable battery? One that works, every time, no picking up a light or game controller that I charged and didn't use for a few days only to find it dead. The standard eneloops have proven themselves the single most reliable battery I have ever used, I'm still using the ones I bought back in 2006/2007 and they've paid for themselves many times over. An extra 15-20% usable capacity is worthless when it disappears overnight, and may not even exist right off the charger after a year.


----------



## StorminMatt (Sep 11, 2013)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Remove "hurricane" and replace with 'earthquake,' since you're in NorCal and you might not have time to 'top off your batteries' before the big one hits. In this scenario and being a casual user, having HSDs might not be such a great idea, was kind of my point.



For emergency preparedness, having ONLY HSD batteries might be a pretty bad idea. But who says you have to commit to only one type of battery? The Target sale allowed me to stock up on Duraloops. And a clearance on the Duracell 2450s at a local grocery store allowed me to get a few of those for a decent price. I also have some Powerex 2700s and a couple of other types of cells. So if I need LSD batteries because of an emergency (or anything else), I have them. But if I'm going on a camping trip, I have to admit that higher capacity wins out over low self discharge (unless I'm bringing the HP550, which high capacity cells won't fit into for whatever reason).


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Sep 11, 2013)

StorminMatt said:


> For emergency preparedness, having ONLY HSD batteries might be a pretty bad idea. But who says you have to commit to only one type of battery? The Target sale allowed me to stock up on Duraloops. And a clearance on the Duracell 2450s at a local grocery store allowed me to get a few of those for a decent price. I also have some Powerex 2700s and a couple of other types of cells. So if I need LSD batteries because of an emergency (or anything else), I have them. But if I'm going on a camping trip, I have to admit that higher capacity wins out over low self discharge (unless I'm bringing the HP550, which high capacity cells won't fit into for whatever reason).



I agree with you. In the beginning, I jumped on some of the Sanyo 2700s and AccuPower 2900s because bigger is better, right? LSD, HSD, those are psychotropic drugs, no?

I don't mind having hi-cap HSDs because as you mention, if you're going to be using/charging them up over shorter periods of time, that extra 30-45% is worth it to me.

However, knowing what I know now, I'm more inclined to stock up on Eneloop Gen 2s in lieu of the more well known HSD cells out there, at least for now.

I do wish I would have NOT gotten the eight Imedions 2400s and spent that $25 on a pack of Eneloop XX/Pros, but such is life...live and learn.

From my point of view, educating the new people here, or the casual users, about the 'practical' differences in HSD and LSD batteries is important, especially if a lot of these batteries will be kept in a drawer for power outages and emergency use.

Chris


----------



## Capolini (Sep 11, 2013)

I am new to these Nimh. I got the XX/2500 mAH Eneloops by Sanyo for my Nitecore EA4.

All my other torches take 18650 L.Ion.

I got them because of their higher capacity and they are definitely better than using throw away AA's and spending too much money for them.I got them online for $17.00,,less than $20.00 with shipping,,,,,,,that is a bit of an investment in of itself! But no doubt cheaper than throw aways in the long run!

Even though this is an EDC light, I will basically use it[just got it] for emergency in case one of my power torches fail when I am walking the Siberian in the wilderness or way out on the trail and several miles from my car!

I have had them 5 days and I am on my 5th charge/discharge cycle. However, two of those were run time tests.

My guess I will probably be charging them twice a week.

*I can not remember "ALL" of the info. about them. I use to have a bookmarked website explaining this!!!*

*UPDATE:!!! I just got my answer! The newer Nimh[that is what I have] have NO memory effect and CAN be charged at anytime during the usage cycle. batterystuff.com! Cool,so they are like L.Ion in that respect.*

Can I treat these like L. Ion in regards to charging them when they are only 20 to 30% drained? Will that shorten their life?

I like ALL my lights FULLY charged when I take them out,not half charged from night to night!

I am going to search for that info. now until you fine gentlemen get back to me!!!

*THANKS,,,,,,Ciao,,,Roberto,,,"Capo di Capo" "KEEP LIGHTING UP THE DARKNESS"*


----------



## ALW248 (Sep 11, 2013)

Capolini said:


> I am new to these Nimh. I got the XX/2500 mAH Eneloops by Sanyo for my Nitecore EA4.
> 
> All my other torches take 18650 L.Ion.
> 
> ...



If they are overcharged, each charge will do damage. Unfortunately, most chargers do overcharge until negative delta. So if you half your number of overcharges, by charging when 50% drained instead of 20% drained, you will double the longevity.

I do not overcharge until negative delta. I terminate charge at inflection point. With La Crosse BC-700 in the default mode, the inflection point is at 1.44V, for both AA and AAA. So terminating around 1.43-1.45V is OK.

If your charger has other indicators for charging state, terminate manually before it says fully charged.


----------



## StorminMatt (Sep 11, 2013)

ChrisGarrett said:


> From my point of view, educating the new people here, or the casual users, about the 'practical' differences in HSD and LSD batteries is important, especially if a lot of these batteries will be kept in a drawer for power outages and emergency use.



Educating people sound like a good idea. But all too often, this education goes something along the lines of 'LSD is good, HSD is bad' without any consideration given to how the batteries will be used. Batteries kept in a drawer for emergency use should be LSD. But not all batteries are used in this manner. Sometimes, you go through batteries on a daily basis. Or you know ahead of time you will use a battery, and want maximum capacity. At these times, HSD might suit you better.

As far as the difference in cycle life between HSD and LSD, it's hard to say how much of this is real and how much of this is due to other factors. For instance, when you started using LSD batteries, did you also buy a better charger? From my experience, this can make a HUGE difference (whether you are destroying batteries from overcharging or because they went in reverse charge due to early termination). Also keep in mind that any advertised difference in cycle life is not as bad as stated with higher capacity batteries. For instance, if you compare a 2000mAH battery with a 2500mAH battery, then 500 cycles on the 2500mAH battery is equivalent to 625 cycles on the 2000mAH battery.


----------



## uk_caver (Sep 11, 2013)

StorminMatt said:


> As far as the difference in cycle life between HSD and LSD, it's hard to say how much of this is real and how much of this is due to other factors. For instance, when you started using LSD batteries, did you also buy a better charger? From my experience, this can make a HUGE difference (whether you are destroying batteries from overcharging or because they went in reverse charge due to early termination).


Good points there.

I suppose devices could make a meaningful difference - if someone switched their main uses from ones which flattened at least one cell in a set to some more modern device with gentler cell handling, either by deliberate circuit design, or implicitly by things like driving LEDs from a 3-cell pack, that could have quite an effect.

On the charger issue, someone getting a smart charger might shift from a previous '_I'll run them until flat because then I know how long to charge for_' policy to topping cells up when not yet flat, which _might_ impact cycle life if termination is harsh, but which does mean cells in multicell devices aren't run flat to the point where the weak one gets a kicking every time.

Personally, most of my old HSD cells weren't the highest-end cells - OK, but still probably mid-range for quality.
The older 1800s and 2000s I had lasted much longer than the subsequent 2300/2500/2700s, but when I shifted to Eneloops, I _was_ rather trading up in terms of price and expectations of quality as well as going to a more sensible capacity _and_ going LSD and (with a couple of budget smart chargers I had dying and convincing me to move upmarket) fairly soon moving up in terms of charging as well.

Had I gone for whatever the best HSDs were, or (quality 2000mAh HSDs, if such had been available) I dare say that would have been a significant improvement on what went before.


----------



## Capolini (Sep 11, 2013)

ALW248 said:


> If they are overcharged, each charge will do damage. Unfortunately, most chargers do overcharge until negative delta. So if you half your number of overcharges, by charging when 50% drained instead of 20% drained, you will double the longevity.
> 
> I do not overcharge until negative delta. I terminate charge at inflection point. With La Crosse BC-700 in the default mode, the inflection point is at 1.44V, for both AA and AAA. So terminating around 1.43-1.45V is OK.
> 
> If your charger has other indicators for charging state, terminate manually before it says fully charged.



Thanks for the info. Very helpful.

I have been and will continue to wait until at least 50% discharged before I recharge them. 

I guess the I4 knows what it is doing then! Because it won't charge past 1.42V. I will continue to monitor to make sure it never reaches the inflection point of 1.44V!

*Ciao,,,roberto,,,"Capo di Capo" "KEEP LIGHTING UP THE DARKNESS"*


----------



## Etsu (Sep 12, 2013)

Capolini said:


> I have been and will continue to wait until at least 50% discharged before I recharge them.
> 
> I guess the I4 knows what it is doing then! Because it won't charge past 1.42V. I will continue to monitor to make sure it never reaches the inflection point of 1.44V!



I wouldn't worry about. 2nd gen Eneloops are rated for 1500 cycles, even more for later gens. Even if you charged your batteries almost every day, it would take years before they wore out. It's not like they're very expensive to replace if/when they finally do die. Charge them at 50%, or 80%, or 20%. It won't matter in the long-run. Just charge them whenever it's convenient.


----------



## Capolini (Sep 12, 2013)

One PROBLEM with this wonderful website is you can get so many answers to the same question! Then, if I am not knowledgeable in that particular topic, I could drive myself crazy wondering WHO IS RIGHT!!

I am not going to worry about it, I am already 77.87654% Gray!

*Ciao,,,Roberto,,,"Capo di Capo" "KEEP LIGHTING UP THE DARKNESS"

It says right on the box that they can be charged up to 500x not 1500!*
*

I HAVE THE 2500 Mah AA/XX*. Either way they will last me at least 3 or 4 years.


----------



## GarageBoy (Sep 12, 2013)

I rather have a second set of batteries as a "reload" than higher capacity cells. Modern NiMHs at 2000mAH for AAs is more than enough for my uses and after dealing with rapidly dying 2500 Energizers and 2700 Sanyos, and the cost of Alkaline batteries, I'm Enelooping everything


----------



## N8N (Sep 12, 2013)

StorminMatt said:


> Educating people sound like a good idea. But all too often, this education goes something along the lines of 'LSD is good, HSD is bad' without any consideration given to how the batteries will be used. Batteries kept in a drawer for emergency use should be LSD. But not all batteries are used in this manner. Sometimes, you go through batteries on a daily basis. Or you know ahead of time you will use a battery, and want maximum capacity. At these times, HSD might suit you better.
> 
> As far as the difference in cycle life between HSD and LSD, it's hard to say how much of this is real and how much of this is due to other factors. For instance, when you started using LSD batteries, did you also buy a better charger? From my experience, this can make a HUGE difference (whether you are destroying batteries from overcharging or because they went in reverse charge due to early termination). Also keep in mind that any advertised difference in cycle life is not as bad as stated with higher capacity batteries. For instance, if you compare a 2000mAH battery with a 2500mAH battery, then 500 cycles on the 2500mAH battery is equivalent to 625 cycles on the 2000mAH battery.



Good point, but LSD *is* always the safe choice. There's no issue using a LSD cell where a HSD would work fine other than slightly lower capacity. Expecting a HSD cell to work in a flashlight that is kept in a drawer and was charged 3 months ago could be a problem however. So if anyone asks what rechargeable to buy my default answer is going to be "Eneloops, and get a good smart charger." Most people just want a simple answer and don't care enough about cells to even bother keeping several different types around.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Sep 12, 2013)

GarageBoy said:


> I rather have a second set of batteries as a "reload" than higher capacity cells. Modern NiMHs at 2000mAH for AAs is more than enough for my uses and after dealing with rapidly dying 2500 Energizers and 2700 Sanyos, and the cost of Alkaline batteries, I'm Enelooping everything



I don't understand the "either or" (or zero sum) attitude about batteries. Why not have both higher capacity _and_ a second set? 

I started this thread in part to justify my own personal decision to standardize on Eneloop "Black" (Pro or XX) cells; and, in part to attempt to understand why I got such a vigorous reaction to that decision. Several people immediately called into question the wisdom of my decision, largely (it seemed) based on cost. 

Cost of batteries can be an issue, but in my opinion, if you can get past the initial investment, the cost differences are not all that great in the long run. And, even if the costs are greater, why not spend that extra money since a flashlight with dead batteries is pretty useless. (This all assumes, of course, that the higher capacity Eneloops prove to be reasonably reliable... Personally, I believe this to be true. But, only time will tell for sure.)

Anyway, I say:

1) Get LSD, because as *N8H* says "LSD *is* always the safe choice." 

2) Get the highest capacity LSD cells you can find (assuming they are reliable), because you never know when that last little bit of juice left in your flashlight is going to be all you've got to get you out of some tight (dark) spot.

3) Always, always carry spares (both flashlights and batteries). 

As a practical matter, you may not want to carry a bunch of AA size cells and flashlights around... they could get pretty heavy. But, I use AAs in my "real" flashlights, and if I think I am going to need a real flashlight, I always carry more than one and plenty of spare cells.

But, for what its worth, at a minimum, I always carry a decent quality (Hi - Med - Low) keychain AAA light, in my pocket with my keys; and, I also carry a Preon 2 and four spare cells in my backpack. That's seven AAAs between two flashlights. Used sparingly, or in Low mode, that should provide enough light for several nights of darkness. (Since they are AAAs, neither the flashlights nor the batteries are particularly heavy or bulky to carry around on a daily basis.)

While I never "intend" to be without my backpack, it could happen that all I have is the one AAA in my pocket. That is when I would be very glad to know that it is 900 mAh, instead of 750 mAh. Those extra 150 mAh could be critical.

I realize that others may need/want "much more flashlight" to begin with, and therefore your spare flashlight(s) plus spare batteries could start getting pretty heavy and bulky to carry around every day. But, I think the principle remains the same. Why not load up that flashlight with as many mAh as you possibly can, and _also carry a couple of spare clips_?


----------



## Capolini (Sep 12, 2013)

N8N said:


> Good point, but LSD *is* always the safe choice. There's no issue using a LSD cell where a HSD would work fine other than slightly lower capacity. Expecting a HSD cell to work in a flashlight that is kept in a drawer and was charged 3 months ago could be a problem however. So if anyone asks what rechargeable to buy my default answer is going to be "Eneloops, and get a good smart charger." Most people just want a simple answer and don't care enough about cells to even bother keeping several different types around.



You should NOT be messing around with that LSD!! Drugs are only a temporary fix! lol..:thinking::mecry:

I had to be a wise guy and add some humor, as weak as you may think it is!

*Ciao,,,Roberto,,,"Capo di Capo" "KEEP LIGHTING UP THE DARKNESS"*


----------



## GarageBoy (Sep 12, 2013)

I do understand what you're saying Rosoku, it's just that the standard Eneloops have such a good track record

I'm still a little off put of high capacity NiMH batteries


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Sep 12, 2013)

GarageBoy said:


> I do understand what you're saying Rosoku, it's just that the standard Eneloops have such a good track record
> 
> I'm still a little off put of high capacity NiMH batteries



Nothing at all wrong with standard Eneloops. I just wanted to make my own position clear. In my case, I just recently started from scratch with Eneloops, so I got to choose between standard or "blacks" from the start. (And, here in Japan the price difference is not that great between standard and "black.") Quite frankly, I never even stopped to imagine that a good Japanese brand-name product like Sanyo might be unreliable (meaning: not perform as advertised)... so, if they *do* prove to be unreliable over the long run, then the joke will be on me. 

But, having spent most of my life in Japan, I can say that most Japanese name-brand products sold in Japan live up to, and beyond, their advertised performance. Otherwise, such companies could not maintain their "superior" image among the Japanese consumer. And, it is only that "superior" image that justifies the generally higher cost of good Japanese products, in Japan. One would normally expect Japanese products to be cheaper in Japan, but that is rarely the case. (The prices I am hearing for real Eneloops or good "Duraloops" at Walmart, Target, Costco, etc. seem ridiculously low to me, when compared to the prices here in Japan.) 

Some Japanese companies still sell actual "Made in Japan" products, exclusively in Japan. There are few real differences (except maybe better packaging and more included accessories), but the Japanese consumer is often willing to pay quite a bit more... just because it is actually assembled in Japan, as opposed to say, Singapore or Thailand.

Anyway, thanks for listening.


----------



## ALW248 (Sep 12, 2013)

Before Eneloop, Sanyo high capacity NiMH were VERY unreliable. It's not really Sanyo's fault. Nobody else was better. It's just that the marketing people drove the capacity higher and higher, far beyond the reliable level.

Not all LSD are equal. I would not expect 500x Pro to be as reliable as 5000x Lite, at all. And before LSD, Sanyo claimed 500x for their high capacity NiMH, too. But those could die in half a year, with not even daily charge, but weekly charge. I don't think Sanyo were lying when they claimed 500x. I believe those can last 500x following the standard. But the vast majority of consumer chargers that overcharge until negative delta killed those fragile high capacity cells in tens of charges.

If 2AH Eneloop is not enough for a single session, but 2.5AH Pro is, I would try Pro, to avoid the battery change. If one cell is significantly damaged in one year, I will switch back to 2AH Eneloop, even if I need to change battery in the middle of the session. 

I don't overcharge my battery until negative delta, for the same reason, to have the peace of mind. If one cell is damaged by overcharging, it is very unpleasant in the middle of the session, even though the cost of the damaged cell is not significant at all.

If 1AH Lite is enough, I prefer that to 2AH Eneloop. Not only the 5000x Lite provides more peace of mind, it also weights less, which is very welcome. A big flash with 4 heavy AA is very top heavy on my camera.

But LSD is not my holy grail. For years, I have been switching back and forth between Eneloop and non-LSD, in my audio devices. My feeling is that Eneloop does not sound as energetic as non-LSD. My theory is that the thing that makes it LSD also prevents it from providing pulse discharge fast enough.

So I am looking for good non-LSD NiMH. It seems that every manufacturer is switching to LSD this time, just like everybody was claiming higher and higher capacity the last time around.

What I want most is non-LSD and low capacity NiMH. Energizer sells some 1400mAh AA that looks interesting.


----------



## Power Me Up (Sep 13, 2013)

ALW248 said:


> But LSD is not my holy grail. For years, I have been switching back and forth between Eneloop and non-LSD, in my audio devices. My feeling is that Eneloop does not sound as energetic as non-LSD. My theory is that the thing that makes it LSD also prevents it from providing pulse discharge fast enough.



Not to say that you're definitely wrong, but that doesn't sound right to me - I can't think of any reason why Eneloops would be worse in that type of use compared to the non LSD types - in fact, I'd expect it to be the other way around since Eneloops can maintain higher voltages under load than most other cells. The main exception would be specialist cells that are designed for very high drain rates.

I'd be curious to know whether you really could tell the difference in a double blind test.


----------



## ST Dog (Sep 13, 2013)

Power Me Up said:


> I'd expect it to be the other way around since Eneloops can maintain higher voltages under load than most other cells.



It's not a constant load though. So, how fast can the battery switch current?
That switching current requirement is what ALW248 is talking about.
If you are pulling 100mA and suddenly try to pull 200mA, how fast does the battery recover?
Now, what about a 4 or 5x load change, for brief, millisecond periods.

A lot of power supplies can't keep up, hence the use of high capacitance capacitors at the input terminals of many car audio amplifiers to store and supply large amounts of charge until the supply can catch up.


----------



## Intheswamp (Sep 13, 2013)

Howdy. First post here. I want to remark on the AA Eneloops that I've been using and have a question at the end.  I've got four of the white (2nd generation?...they have the crown) that I've had going on two years and eight of the colored ones from Costco that are probably three months old now. I have charged these from "day one" with a Radio Shack pulse charger that I purchased about 15 years ago. The white batteries have always charged up to 1.47v (which is a touch high), but the colored ones only charge to 1.44v (more of a normal voltage). I have used these batteries exclusively in a small point and shoot Canon camera that uses two AA batteries. The camera is often used in a time-lapse setup where the camera will run for 10+ hours a day taking 2 to 4 pictures every minute. The camera has operated many times to the point of the camera shutting down with so little power that it would not retract the lens. I've also used these in some drive-lapse setups where a picture is taken as quickly as the shutter can be automatically tripped and the data written to the SD card...a shutter trip probably every 8-10 seconds and running for a couple hours. These batteries have performed flawlessly during this time...I recommend them to everyone I talk with.

My question is in regards to the two different sets of batteries. The white ones that charge up to 1.47v seem to last longer than the colored ones that charge to 1.44v...and more so than I would imagine with only a .03v different in them. This is probably trivial but has anyone noticed anything like this between the white and colored batteries? Simply an older batch versus a newer batch? I'm going to be using Eneloops in a Canon T2i DSLR soon and I want to pick up some more of them...right now I'm thinking of ordering the white ones from Amazon rather than picking up more from Costco (cheaper).

Thanks for any feedback,
Ed

PS... Interesting, I just looked on Amazon and they have a 3rd generation listed, 1800 recharge cycles,...I wasn't aware of them.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Sep 13, 2013)

Intheswamp said:


> My question is in regards to the two different sets of batteries. The white ones that charge up to 1.47v seem to last longer than the colored ones that charge to 1.44v...and more so than I would imagine with only a .03v different in them. This is probably trivial but has anyone noticed anything like this between the white and colored batteries? Simply an older batch versus a newer batch? I'm going to be using Eneloops in a Canon T2i DSLR soon and I want to pick up some more of them...right now I'm thinking of ordering the white ones from Amazon rather than picking up more from Costco (cheaper).
> 
> Thanks for any feedback,
> Ed
> ...



Yep, we're up to Gen 3 1800 cycle Eneloops, along with the Eneloop XX/Pro 2450mAh 500 cycle hi-caps.

To hazzard a guess to your question, it could just be that the light/dark blue Costco cells are from a different production lot, or it could be that the internal resistance is different between the two batches.

I've too have a 15 year old RatShack (15 min. IC3) charger that would charge non-15 minute cells in a gentle, albeit long manner. It's been retired, but it really banged on those IC3 batteries to the point where they were smoking hot off the charger, so who knows with your charger, if there's a problem, but it just seems to be a difference in lot-to-lot variation with the Eneloops, IMO.

You could always pony up for a smart charger like an AccuPower IQ 328, LaCrosse BC 700/1000 and/or Maha C9000 Wizard One and measure the capacities between the to lots and see if you have any more juice in one batch, over the other.

Are you letting the batteries rest and/or balance before measuring their standing voltages?

Chris


----------



## uk_caver (Sep 13, 2013)

ST Dog said:


> It's not a constant load though. So, how fast can the battery switch current?
> That switching current requirement is what ALW248 is talking about.
> If you are pulling 100mA and suddenly try to pull 200mA, how fast does the battery recover?
> Now, what about a 4 or 5x load change, for brief, millisecond periods.


NiMH cell datasheets often have an impedance quoted, typically at 1KHz.
Looking at those figures for Eneloops and your HSD cells might give a useful guide to what impedance might be at higher frequencies.

I only have a few datasheets for cells I'm interested in, but the figures on my (old) eneloop AA one compared with data for some larger (4/3A / 4000mAh) GP cells seemed to be pretty comparable, allowing for the size/capacity difference.



ST Dog said:


> A lot of power supplies can't keep up, hence the use of high capacitance capacitors at the input terminals of many car audio amplifiers to store and supply large amounts of charge until the supply can catch up.


I thought that in a vehicle application, capacitors were used to quite an extent to try and buffer/decouple the amp from external drops and spikes from a notoriously 'dirty' power system, as well as potentially to provide low-impedance power for transients.


----------



## ST Dog (Sep 13, 2013)

uk_caver said:


> I thought that in a vehicle application, capacitors were used to quite an extent to try and buffer/decouple the amp from external drops and spikes from a notoriously 'dirty' power system, as well as potentially to provide low-impedance power for transients.



High capacitance (in the 1F range) don't help with filtering. They are there to provide power to the amplifier for the high current needed to move a larger woofer for bass/drum hits. The vehicle power system can't react fast enough. Granted the inductance in the normal power feeds don't help, but even a battery mounted close to the amp can't keep up (according to the people I know that tried a second, remote mounted battery).


----------



## Intheswamp (Sep 13, 2013)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Yep, we're up to Gen 3 1800 cycle Eneloops, along with the Eneloop XX/Pro 2450mAh 500 cycle hi-caps.
> 
> To hazzard a guess to your question, it could just be that the light/dark blue Costco cells are from a different production lot, or it could be that the internal resistance is different between the two batches.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply, Chris. I haven't found a model number for my RS charger, the catalog number is Cat. No. 23-410 and in the pdf instruction manual it calls it a "RadioShack Ni-Cd and Nickel Metal Hydride Rechargeable Battery PulseCharger"...quiet a name, eh?  It is a four channel charger and the batteries have never gotten hot using it. It seems to do a good job....I'll load it up with four AA batteries and they may stay in there a week or a month...they seem to be fine....I've been doing that for a couple of years now.

For the voltage readings I'm simply going by the read-out from the chargers lcd...and that is being read as I take the batteries out of the charger so they all come fresh from the top-off charge. I figure it is just a batch difference between the different voltages. I may still go for the white ones and see if which of the current batteries they are more inline with.

I have been looking at the different smart chargers. I wouldn't mind something that charges more than four batteries. I will be using six AA's at a time in a battery grip on a DSLR camera and it would be nice to be able to charge them all at the same time. So far, in the 4-cell chargers I like the BC1000 and the C9000. I'm thinking of getting one of the 8-cell chargers (just confused on which would be the best choice) and getting a c9000 for "quality control"....if that makes sense. Or, *maybe* get two C9000's....I'd like to get standardized on a good charger.

Ed


----------



## Power Me Up (Sep 13, 2013)

ST Dog said:


> It's not a constant load though. So, how fast can the battery switch current?
> That switching current requirement is what ALW248 is talking about.
> If you are pulling 100mA and suddenly try to pull 200mA, how fast does the battery recover?
> Now, what about a 4 or 5x load change, for brief, millisecond periods.
> ...



You're really talking about the inductance of the cell. I'm not aware of any data sheets giving just an inductance value for cells, but the inductance be included in the impedance value (which also includes the internal resistance as well)

I can't think of any possible reason why low self discharge cells would exhibit higher inductance than non low self discharge cells and I challenge you to provide such a reason.

Checking the data sheets for the Sanyo 2700 cell and comparing it to the data sheet for their Eneloop, I can see that they're both rated for the same 25 milliohm impedance at 1kHz:
http://www.eneloop.info/fileadmin/web_data/Data-Sheets/HR-3U_2700_.pdf
http://www.eneloop.info/fileadmin/EDITORS/ENELOOP/DATA_SHEETS/HR-3UTGA_data_sheet.pdf

Claims that the sound doesn't feel as energetic when using Eneloops are highly subjective and very much prone to unintentional bias, hence my question about whether he could really tell the difference in a double blind test.


----------



## ST Dog (Sep 13, 2013)

Power Me Up said:


> I can't think of any possible reason why low self discharge cells would exhibit higher inductance than non low self discharge cells and I challenge you to provide such a reason.



I can't either, but I'm open to the possibility.



> Claims that the sound doesn't feel as energetic when using Eneloops are highly subjective and very much prone to unintentional bias, hence my question about whether he could really tell the difference in a double blind test.



Completely agree. Such is the bane of the audiophile crowd.

I was just responding to the point about the battery having a good IV curve (which I quoted). There's a difference in the cell reaction to a pulsing current and a steady current, and that it could affect audio. Whether it does, or does to a noticeable and repeatable degree is another matter all together.

I don't know enough about battery internals to speculate, nor do I know how his audio player was designed, and it may well be a factor.


I can't hear the difference in the expensive audiophile capacitors and general purpose caps either.
Now, where did I put my Sparkomatic EQ :shrug:


----------



## ST Dog (Sep 13, 2013)

So, given the original subject, whats the best choice for purchasing the 2000mAh AA LSD cells like the Eneloop and a comparable AAA?

Actual Eneloop or remarked, I don't care. Just something I can readily purchase.
Trying to find Duraloops on sale is great, but I need a dozen or so each size (AA and AAA) and a few D cells (probably using 3xAA adapters). After checking a dozen local stores I've found 1 pack of AA and 2 packs of AAA, but $15+ for the 4packs.

I can get someone to purchase at SAM or Costco, if locating something there is simple and straight forward. Can be like IDing duraloops though.

(This it what drew me in here to begin with)


----------



## ALW248 (Sep 13, 2013)

Costco has Eneloop on sale from time to time, with different packages, sometimes with C and D adapters. Costco's Eneloop price is much lower than internet sellers, especially when on sale, below $2 per cell, with charger and/or C/D adapters included for free.

Ikea has non-Eneloop NiMH, $5 for 4-pack.


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Sep 13, 2013)

ALW248 said:


> Ikea has non-Eneloop NiMH, $5 for 4-pack.



How does this relate to this thread?

Bill


----------



## Power Me Up (Sep 13, 2013)

ST Dog said:


> I can't either, but I'm open to the possibility.



As am I - provided that there is reliable evidence to back up the claim.



> Completely agree. Such is the bane of the audiophile crowd.



Indeed!



> I was just responding to the point about the battery having a good IV curve (which I quoted). There's a difference in the cell reaction to a pulsing current and a steady current, and that it could affect audio.



Fair point. I don't think that the inductance of any NiMH cells is at all significant compared to the internal resistance at the frequencies that are relevant to this type of use.



> Whether it does, or does to a noticeable and repeatable degree is another matter all together.



Exactly.


----------



## ALW248 (Sep 13, 2013)

Power Me Up said:


> I can't think of any possible reason why low self discharge cells would exhibit higher inductance than non low self discharge cells and I challenge you to provide such a reason.



Sanyo says that LSD is implemented by increasing lattice size, so that electrons can fit in more stably. While for non-LSD, the small lattice tend to squeeze electrons out, causing self discharge.

If the stably fitted electrons are slight slower to get loose when it is pulse discharged, LSD can behave slower than non-LSD. While the number of electrons can be large, so LSD can be capable of large constant current, but not fast pulse current.

Without testing the pulse discharge speed of Eneloop and non-LSD, proving one way or the other, my years of practical experience of the audio performance is worth something, to me.

I mentioned Ikea's $5/4 2000mAh AA and 700mAh AAA, because I myself don't know of any other NiMH that is lower priced and readily available. And they can be better than Eneloop for some applications, e.g., for fast pulse discharge in my audio devices.


----------



## uk_caver (Sep 14, 2013)

If someone was interested and had the equipment, presumably they could set up a test with a cyclic square-wave load at various frequencies and an oscilloscope, whether testing cells individually, or having different cells in series and looking at the voltage change across each one.

I have an old oscilloscope, but it's in the garage (and possibly full of spiders) and I'm not _that_ interested.


----------



## Serenity (Sep 14, 2013)

If Eneloops can't react as quickly as other cells to pulsed current, wouldn't that be detectable by measuring light output of a PWM light?


----------



## uk_caver (Sep 14, 2013)

Even if there were minor differences between cells, (which seems simply to be a speculation at this stage), I'd have thought many drivers would compensate for most/all such differences anyway, since the point of many drivers is to give constant output regardless of changes in input voltage/cell impedance.
Also, the suggested differences would only seem to be likely present for a small amount of a given PWM cycle, for typical PWM rates.

A possible minor difference, present for a fraction of the time, and for which a circuit is partly or wholly compensating would seem hard to see by looking at an average output.

But we are maybe getting a bit off-topic, assuming the main topic hasn't largely run its course. Unless there's a suggestion the different _Eneloops_ have meaningfully different transient performance.


----------



## ST Dog (Sep 14, 2013)

uk_caver said:


> I'd have thought many drivers would compensate for most/all such differences anyway, since the point of many drivers is to give constant output regardless of changes in input voltage/cell impedance.
> Also, the suggested differences would only seem to be likely present for a small amount of a given PWM cycle, for typical PWM rates.



Agree. I wouldn't expect a PWM light to have a detectable difference. Especially not one detectable by eye.
Vision responds much different that hearing.



> But we are maybe getting a bit off-topic, assuming the main topic hasn't largely run its course. Unless there's a suggestion the different _Eneloops_ have meaningfully different transient performance.



Do you mean different LSD variants or different Eneloop branded cells, to include LSD and standard?
The LSD v standard cell response was the issue.

Appeared to have mostly run it's course and morphed a bit into a technical issue in a particular application that could be better served by one design.



> If someone was interested and had the equipment, presumably they could set up a test with a cyclic square-wave load at various frequencies and an oscilloscope



Would be fun. I have neither a scope nor a good way to generate the pulsing load.


----------



## Power Me Up (Sep 14, 2013)

ALW248 said:


> Sanyo says that LSD is implemented by increasing lattice size, so that electrons can fit in more stably. While for non-LSD, the small lattice tend to squeeze electrons out, causing self discharge.
> 
> If the stably fitted electrons are slight slower to get loose when it is pulse discharged, LSD can behave slower than non-LSD. While the number of electrons can be large, so LSD can be capable of large constant current, but not fast pulse current.



That does at least sound superficially plausible, but I'd expect the ability to hold a voltage under a constant current discharge to be more affected by this than the transient response.



> Without testing the pulse discharge speed of Eneloop and non-LSD, proving one way or the other, my years of practical experience of the audio performance is worth something, to me.



And without an actual proper double blind trial, it's pretty much worthless to me - sorry!


----------



## ALW248 (Sep 16, 2013)

uk_caver said:


> But we are maybe getting a bit off-topic, assuming the main topic hasn't largely run its course. Unless there's a suggestion the different _Eneloops_ have meaningfully different transient performance.



The original post was that Eneloop Pro is the best, IF 500x is more than enough for the practical lifetime of the battery.

The problem is that in real use, it might be closer to 50x than 500x.

The high capacity NiMH before Eneloop can be only 10x to 20x.

Even the most reliable at the time, 1000x and 1500x Eneloop, lasted only a little more than 100x in multiple tests.

My guess is that overcharging until negative delta, at around 1A, reduced cell life dramatically.

So if 50x is too short, that the risk of unexpected cell failure is too high, than regular Eneloop is better than Pro.

If Lite provides enough capacity for a single session before recharge, the 5000x might be much more reliable.

On the other hand, since Pro is the least LSD, it might offer faster transient discharge. In applications where cell failure is only a minor inconvenience, but transient performance is fundamental for enjoyment, like in audio, Pro might be better.

If non-LSD low capacity NiMH has even better transient performance, and better reliability than Pro, then those can be the best in these specific applications.


----------



## uk_caver (Sep 16, 2013)

You're assuming that there is some real and consistent difference in transient response between standard Eneloop and some unspecified HSD cells, something for which there is, as yet, no objective evidence.
How many Eneloops have you tested, are you sure that none were particularly damaged?

You are _further _assuming that such alleged difference in response is LSD-related, which seems to be pure speculation, as do guesses about _possible_ physical mechanisms.

You're also talking about specific (unspecified) audio applications - even if there _was_ an audio effect, it may be irrelevant to someone with different devices which were _differently_ (or should that be _properly_?) designed.



ALW248 said:


> Even the most reliable at the time, 1000x and 1500x Eneloop, lasted only a little more than 100x in multiple tests.


Not all tests

Or according to the chart on
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?219301-Eneloop-Performance-Details-for-Experts
With a test of 2A(1C) -dV charge, 2A discharge, 2009 Eneloops managed ~200 cycles before meaningful loss of capacity even started, and decline to about half capacity was roughly linear and took about another 150 cycles.
I'd call that about a 300cycle life - capacity was down by 300, but no apparent _accelerated_ decline.

or
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...Testing-Observations%85&p=1370657#post1370657
where after (2008) Eneloops were put through 150 cycles of being charged on a 15-minute Energiser charger, nothing severe had happened.

Applying a 10x derating on cycles times for cells treated less harshly might be being a bit excessive.


----------



## Wrend (Sep 16, 2013)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> What charger have you been using, the life of nimh battery can be down to the charger you use, as Silver Fox says nimh dont die they are killed.
> 
> John.



Not sure if you were asking me or not, or if it was just a general question, but I've mostly been using a couple C9000s. When I first got some Eneloop cells, I was primarily using a "dumb" wall wart style slow charger.

On the C9000s, I charge the Eneloop AAs at 700mA, and the AAAs at 300mA. I also let them go through the full top-off portion of the charge after the main charging phase is done to help balance the cells a little at a more fully charged state. In my capacity tests, this doesn't seem to "overcharge" the cells at all, as the charged capacity is still somewhat lower than after a break-in cycle capacity test for the AAAs. The top-off portion of the charge averages out to be a little higher, though still pretty close to 0.1C/h for the AAAs.


----------



## PS4 (Sep 18, 2013)

uk_caver said:


> Not all tests
> 
> Or according to the chart on
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?219301-Eneloop-Performance-Details-for-Experts
> ...



Yep.

Also, all these test are accelerating wear also by subjecting cells to continuous charge/discharge at high rates, without rest. I would think that such tests are much harsher (temperature, chemistry degraration) than real-life use for cell that is charged in smart charger, and have normal rest period between uses.

Real life experience from users (here in forum) of good quality LSD cells seems to suggest that they just keep on going. Who here has run down to trash heap, say.. more than say...dozen Eneloops ??, counting from IIRC 2005 ??

Many here has several dozens of them, and way back in years, so they should be fading away fast right now, if pessimistic life expectancy estimates are to be believed, even if quite moderately used. Example 7 years of service. 1 cycle per week = over 350 cycles by now.


----------



## ALW248 (Sep 20, 2013)

uk_caver said:


> You're assuming that there is some real and consistent difference in transient response between standard Eneloop and some unspecified HSD cells, something for which there is, as yet, no objective evidence.
> How many Eneloops have you tested, are you sure that none were particularly damaged?
> 
> You are _further _assuming that such alleged difference in response is LSD-related, which seems to be pure speculation, as do guesses about _possible_ physical mechanisms.
> ...



The sound difference is real and consistent to me. You have not heard what I heard. So you don't know. And you have every right to doubt me.

But the point is that in some applications, non-LSD does not have any disadvantage. When you need LSD, by all means use Eneloop, e.g., as backup. For applications that are used almost daily, you will not miss much by using non-LSD, instead of Eneloop. 

And maybe, you will benefit from the better transient performance of non-LSD. Especially now, almost all manufacturers are switching to LSD. So if later you encounter problems with LSD, it might be very difficult to get non-LSD then.

I have tried several different brands of non-LSD. They all sound better than Eneloop. I assume it is not because those particular brands are better, but categorically non_LSD is better.

I have 8 AA and 4 AAA Eneloop. They all perform like new. BTW, 2 AA was slightly damaged by just one overcharge at 1A until negative delta. But they still perform very well, like new if I don't have comparison. The charging curve is slightly different from the other 6 AA Eneloop. The other 6 AA are in complete lock step. The difference of the 2 slightly damaged cells are real and consistent.

Another application, my GPS, does not work well with old cells that developed high internal impedance. So I switched to Eneloop. It still misbehaved very often. Then I switched to new non-LSD. It has worked well ever since.


----------



## uk_caver (Sep 20, 2013)

Just to eliminate other possibilities:

Presumably cell diameter can't be an issue if you have multiple audio applications - in a one-off application it is possible that slightly thicker cells might stick somewhat in a snug holder and tend to make lower pressure and less-good contact

Presumably all your cells are definitely _truly_ clean?
Some cells seem to develop corrosion films on the end which aren't necessarily visible. That might vary between cells if metal platings are different and between applications depending on cell contact materials. I've certainly had Eneloops which looked clean but which benefited from cleaning, as ell as some getting faintly visibly oxidised quite quickly, though I do sometimes use them places where they might get wet in use or while being carried as spares.

This summer, I had real issues with a laser rangefinder for underground surveying which was due to invisible corrosion films and relatively low-pressure springs, though in that case using alkaline cells (I _know_, but I wasn't in charge of equipment).

Maybe I will play with my 'scope when I have some free time (assuming it still works), but I'm occupied at the moment making things.


----------



## Power Me Up (Sep 21, 2013)

ALW248 said:


> The sound difference is real and consistent to me. You have not heard what I heard. So you don't know. And you have every right to doubt me.



I'm still far from impressed. It's not that hard to find people who honestly believe that homeopathy (and a heap of other things) gives them real and consistent results. Humans are unfortunately easily fooled by their own biases...

Get back to us when you've done a double blind test. And while you're at it, provide us with details of how you've done the test - i.e. your procedure, what exactly you tested with, etc.



> But the point is that in some applications, non-LSD does not have any disadvantage. When you need LSD, by all means use Eneloop, e.g., as backup. For applications that are used almost daily, you will not miss much by using non-LSD, instead of Eneloop.



I'm not aware of any high capacity cells that are anywhere near as robust as Eneloops and that is a huge disadvantage for non LSD cells (IMHO)



> And maybe, you will benefit from the better transient performance of non-LSD. Especially now, almost all manufacturers are switching to LSD. So if later you encounter problems with LSD, it might be very difficult to get non-LSD then.



I'm not expecting non LSD cells to disappear entirely. There are still cases where the higher capacity outweighs the disadvantages of higher self discharge and reduced resilience. There's also the fact that the majority of the public are still not educated to know that higher capacity isn't automatically better.



> I have tried several different brands of non-LSD. They all sound better than Eneloop. I assume it is not because those particular brands are better, but categorically non_LSD is better.
> 
> I have 8 AA and 4 AAA Eneloop. They all perform like new. BTW, 2 AA was slightly damaged by just one overcharge at 1A until negative delta. But they still perform very well, like new if I don't have comparison. The charging curve is slightly different from the other 6 AA Eneloop. The other 6 AA are in complete lock step. The difference of the 2 slightly damaged cells are real and consistent.



I'm curious to know more details about the damaged Eneloops that you've got - are they showing higher internal resistance? Reduced capacity? How does the charging curve look different? Although Eneloops are more robust, they're not completely indestructible.



> Another application, my GPS, does not work well with old cells that developed high internal impedance. So I switched to Eneloop. It still misbehaved very often. Then I switched to new non-LSD. It has worked well ever since.



That doesn't sound right at all. What is your reasoning for Eneloops not working as well as non LSD cells in that application?

I've been using Eneloops for years in a hand held GPS and they've worked better and for much longer than the non LSD cells I was previously using and they're still in better condition despite having been used (and abused) for longer (about 6 years versus maybe 2 with the older non LSD cells)!


----------



## ALW248 (Oct 10, 2013)

My GPS sometimes displays garbage. My guess is that Eneloop could not supply pulse current fast enough, that sometimes the computer inside the GPS got into an error state. 

Before my old non-LSD developed high internal impedance, they worked perfectly with the GPS. And now new non-LSD NiMH works perfectly.

Here in US, the two most widely available brands, Energizer and Duracell, both sell only LSD now. It is already not easy to find new non-LSD NiMH.


----------



## StorminMatt (Oct 10, 2013)

ALW248 said:


> Here in US, the two most widely available brands, Energizer and Duracell, both sell only LSD now. It is already not easy to find new non-LSD NiMH.



You can still get Powerex 2700s. And if you have a Batteries Plus store in your area, you don't even have to wait a week (or more) to get them.


----------



## Power Me Up (Oct 11, 2013)

ALW248 said:


> My GPS sometimes displays garbage. My guess is that Eneloop could not supply pulse current fast enough, that sometimes the computer inside the GPS got into an error state.
> 
> Before my old non-LSD developed high internal impedance, they worked perfectly with the GPS. And now new non-LSD NiMH works perfectly.



So you had the same problems with the non LSD cells when they developed high internal impedance?

Has it occurred to you that your Eneloops may have also developed high internal impedance?

What are you using to charge your Eneloops?


----------



## ALW248 (Oct 25, 2013)

ST Dog said:


> So, given the original subject, whats the best choice for purchasing the 2000mAh AA LSD cells like the Eneloop and a comparable AAA?
> Actual Eneloop or remarked, I don't care. Just something I can readily purchase.
> Trying to find Duraloops on sale is great, but I need a dozen or so each size (AA and AAA) and a few D cells (probably using 3xAA adapters). After checking a dozen local stores I've found 1 pack of AA and 2 packs of AAA, but $15+ for the 4packs.
> I can get someone to purchase at SAM or Costco, if locating something there is simple and straight forward. Can be like IDing duraloops though.
> (This it what drew me in here to begin with)



Costco now switched from 1500x to 1800x Eneloop, 8 AA, 4 AAA, plus a charger for $25.


----------



## Jonc (Dec 25, 2013)

Costco up the road from me on December 24, 2013:

AA x 8 July 2013 light blue and dark blue
AAA x 4 July 2013 light green and dark green
Charger
1800x
$19.00

$1.58 per battery

With $55.00 membership $6.16 per battery!


----------



## markr6 (Dec 26, 2013)

Jonc said:


> Costco up the road from me on December 24, 2013:
> 
> AA x 8 July 2013 light blue and dark blue
> AAA x 4 July 2013 light green and dark green
> ...



Ouch! Better pick up a 600-count pack of toilet paper and 300-pack of Coke to make it worthwhile!


----------



## Uncaged (Jan 7, 2014)

I have my sister coming down from Chicago soon and I'm going to get her to get me a mix of normal eneloop (for remotes and Wiimotes) and the XX (for some torches that take AA or AAA). Is the charger that comes with the batteries the best to use or something like the Nitecore Intellicharger i4 V2 (or any other reccommended chargers) that can also charge 18650/CR123A batteries. I prefer not to buy both, but if I have too, it's no problem.


----------



## kaichu dento (Oct 20, 2014)

Just read through the first couple pages and have decided to get some of the standard Eneloops based on the evidence presented so far. Hopefully I didn't miss anything too important over the parts that I didn't bother to read.

That said, how many of you actually like/use a compact Eneloop charger, and if so, which one?


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Oct 20, 2014)

kaichu dento said:


> ...That said, how many of you actually like/use a compact Eneloop charger, and if so, which one?..<snip>



I carry this extremely tiny charger http://www.lygte-info.dk/review/Review Charger Soshine SC-F3 UK.html (HKJ review) in my backpack at all times, along with a spare flashlight and some spare cells.

I generally use a Maha MH-C9000 at home.


----------



## kaichu dento (Oct 21, 2014)

Rosoku Chikara said:


> I carry this extremely tiny charger http://www.lygte-info.dk/review/Review Charger Soshine SC-F3 UK.html (HKJ review) in my backpack at all times, along with a spare flashlight and some spare cells.
> 
> I generally use a Maha MH-C9000 at home.


I've been carrying one of Cottonpickers chargers for a few years now but was thinking of getting one of the Eneloop chargers when I pick some of them up next month.

Maybe I'll get one of those little Soshine chargers too.


----------



## entercpf (Oct 21, 2014)

The Eneloop quick chargers are nice, simple and gets the job done. However avoid at all cost the other version (slow charger), usually cheaper but man, it takes more than 8 hours to charge a set of batteries...


----------



## markr6 (Oct 21, 2014)

entercpf said:


> The Eneloop quick chargers are nice, simple and gets the job done. However avoid at all cost the other version (slow charger), usually cheaper but man, it takes more than 8 hours to charge a set of batteries...



Yeah, I even stopped using my BC700. It nice, but I don't need to know how much charge was put into the cells each time. I use my MH-C801D every time; can't imagine using anything else now. 1A, 2A, 8 slots. Done!

It also occured to me I haven't used a light with AA/AAA in months! Only 18650 seems to make sense anymore given the size. Still a lot of eneloops in remotes, toys and all the other common household items.


----------



## CelticCross74 (Oct 21, 2014)

Ive got Eneloop XX's that Ive been using for a year and they still ALL hold charge for freaking ever and can truly give all they can before they give out. Ive read on this site where the Eneloop Pro series actually rated just above 2600mah which is well above listed rating. Idk how Eneloop does it I truly do not. Just the standard Eneloop's alone are amazing enough but the XX/Pro's hold a good percentage more and hold it just as well as the standard Eneloop's which to me is impressive as hell seeing as the only other high mah rated AA that I consider buying are Imedion AA's as long as their cheap they are just as good as either just dont hold as much as the XX/Pro


----------



## realista (Oct 22, 2014)

i make this simple choice......because i think it is OPTIMAL:
*A) for AAA i buy the "lite" version* at 600mah.... because as you know, item powered by AAA generally do not drain so much power. for example little gadgets,remote,little flashlight keychain (i u want a nice powered one just buy a 10440),bluetooth gadgets/keyboards...............
*B) for AA i buy the XX/pro version* because i noticed most times AA are used in high drain devices, or in series/parallel in most flashlight,radio,stereo speakers, and gadgets with "medium" ampere drain. Nowdays every item is powered with AA( C and D disappearing) so it is optimal to have the best MAH capacity possible. --- in just rare cases wall clocks uses AA instead AAA and if it is so.... i prefer to buy a cheap ultracheap alkaline, i found some LOWCOST alkaline in old clocks ( purchased 8, 10 years ago) to be still 1,38v...1,4v... so would be useless to buy a RECHARGEABLE ONE just to put it in a wall clock for 5/10 years!!! i think batteries are similars to CARS...... if you stop them for too loong time, they become bad,blocked,low performance.....respecting one used more often.

in definitive, AA --> PRO/XX and AAA ---> "lite" version.


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Oct 30, 2014)

Etsu said:


> I wouldn't worry about. 2nd gen Eneloops are rated for 1500 cycles, even more for later gens. Even if you charged your batteries almost every day, it would take years before they wore out. It's not like they're very expensive to replace if/when they finally do die. Charge them at 50%, or 80%, or 20%. It won't matter in the long-run. Just charge them whenever it's convenient.



I prefer to charge them at 40-50% just to be on the safe side, even with having the 2100 cycle ones i look for longevity but i also look for other uses so chances are 16AA Eneloops will change to 32AA and so forth so i'm for the 2000mAh / 2100cycle use. Heck, i still use my derelict Energizers and Rayovac batteries from the days of cheap timer and pair chargers that work just fine for remotes just charge and throw them in a remote as needed.

As for the XX Eneloops, never used them but currently i got a 4 pack 2400mAh Duracell Ioncore and a 2300mAh Energizer ones (i got because they were the only batteries that fit in my 2AA Maglite at the time). If i need to replace the Duracells i'll get a pack of XX Eneloops but for now the 2000mAh Eneloops work for me, if i need higher mAh that i go through all the time i'll probably use the HSD such as Imedian or PowerEx. I would probably use XX Eneloops (or the Duracells) for emergency LSDs if i manage to use up all my regular Eneloops juice before the power goes back on. The only thing i wished Eneloop/Panasonic had was dual AA to D enclosures instead of the single ones, i end up having to buy some cheapo off brand that would most likely break over time.

As of right now i don't need any new batteries i just have been using Eneloops or my older Duracells (from 2004-2006) which i could replace since the highest ones are currently at 1300mAh (which i use for flashlights, PC mouse, or radio/cd player) but like i said i'm going for longevity not how much power i can get out of one battery. I still have yet to replace my Energizer AAA's (2006) too which are in fairly good condition.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Nov 1, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> ...The only thing i wished Eneloop/Panasonic had was dual AA to D enclosures instead of the single ones, i end up having to buy some cheapo off brand that would most likely break over time...<snip>



You might consider these 3xAA-->D adapters which are available on eBay for about $2.99 each "Buy it Now." I purchased four of them (just in case) even though I don't currently have any applications that require D cells. (I decided that they were cheap enough, so I might was well be prepared for the day when someone asks me "Don't you have any D cells?")

Best I can tell, they are structurally sound and should not break too easily. As far as electrical properties, perhaps someone else (with better know-how and equipment) should test them again for resistance, but according to my cheap multimeter, they seem fine. The fact that they use 3xAA is an obvious advantage. If you use 3x Eneloop Pros, you will have a capacity around 7350 mAh.


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Nov 2, 2014)

Rosoku Chikara said:


> You might consider these 3xAA-->D adapters which are available on eBay for about $2.99 each "Buy it Now." I purchased four of them (just in case) even though I don't currently have any applications that require D cells. (I decided that they were cheap enough, so I might was well be prepared for the day when someone asks me "Don't you have any D cells?")
> 
> Best I can tell, they are structurally sound and should not break too easily. As far as electrical properties, perhaps someone else (with better know-how and equipment) should test them again for resistance, but according to my cheap multimeter, they seem fine. The fact that they use 3xAA is an obvious advantage. If you use 3x Eneloop Pros, you will have a capacity around 7350 mAh.



Nice! Yeah i'd get more run time out of 3AA, i'm familiar with the design because i got a Dorcy LED flashlight and one of these portable automotive LED light that run on 3AA with similar casings that you showed me. So far i only got one application that needs 2D which is a LED Maglite which i got 8 hours from 4AA basic Eneloops. I'm definitely going to order some of these. 7350mAh sounds nice. If i got the 2700mAh PowerEx batteries i'd get around 8100mAh though they are HSD but i hear is good for everyday use. Thanks again for that link these will be useful.


----------



## 5S8Zh5 (Jan 13, 2015)

Rosoku Chikara said:


> Granted, the initial investment cost is very different: perhaps even double, in some markets (and that investment cost could be a serious obstacle for some people). But, over the long run, if you can afford to make the "investment," the price difference between the two battery types quickly becomes *highly trivial*, it seems to me.


^^ That's what I'm talking about. I like my coffee black, like my eneloops. ...  ... 

[ I've got white, and forest tones, and... ]


----------

