# Why so many 3 x AAA lights?



## jbrett14 (May 8, 2011)

Curious to hear from others as to why it seems there are so many 3 x AAA headlamps out there vs. lights with only 1 or 2 cells.

What is your favorite configuration and, if not 3 x AAA, can you provide logical reasons why it might be better than 3 x AAA.

Do 3 x AAA lights have some kind of advantage over a 1 or 2 x AA, or maybe a 1 x CR123? 

All input appreciated.


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## robostudent5000 (May 8, 2011)

issue was discussed on this thread: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...XPG-headlamp&p=3581836&viewfull=1#post3581836


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## jbrett14 (May 8, 2011)

Well, it kind of answered my questions. Thanks for the link. I tend to forget that the common masses do not think like flashlight nuts, and that manufacturers have one thing in mind, sell to the masses.


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## Glock27 (May 8, 2011)

Because a fool and his money are soon parted.
G27


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## electrothump (May 10, 2011)

Light weight is the only good reason I can think of. After using lights with larger battery packs for years, I'm now kind of spoiled on the lightness of the 3 AAA. It still seems like 2 AA's with stepped up voltage would be a better option with a minimal weight change, but what do I know?


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## Lynx_Arc (May 10, 2011)

electrothump said:


> Light weight is the only good reason I can think of. After using lights with larger battery packs for years, I'm now kind of spoiled on the lightness of the 3 AAA. It still seems like 2 AA's with stepped up voltage would be a better option with a minimal weight change, but what do I know?


 
It is a conspiracy to sell more 4AAA packs of alkaline batteries


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## brighthead (May 10, 2011)

electrothump said:


> Light weight is the only good reason I can think of. After using lights with larger battery packs for years, I'm now kind of spoiled on the lightness of the 3 AAA.


 
Absolutely. 

I recently bought a *Petzl Pixa 1* (2xAA) = too heavy and too uncomfortable compared to the 3xAAA I am used to. At least in this design.
But for many it would be OK without this reference point.

The LEDs also like being given higher voltages too, so it's not all a big conspiracy in my opinion. There are practical considerations.

I'm also not a fan of batteries on the back of your head (a lump at the back is inconvenient in many resting positions, in my opinion). Same goes for those wire models, which are prone to damage and snagging and more care when rolling them up or in storage.

In my opinion this is why *3xAAA* are popular.


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## Bolster (May 11, 2011)

I know I'm OT, but Brighthead, you're the only person I'm aware of with a Pixa 1. I'd love to know the beam spread. Can you give me a measurement of beam diameter + distance from the wall when you took the diameter? Then I can calculate beam width. Thanks!!


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## 5150Bronco (May 11, 2011)

In my experience and looking around for a new light I think they just seem so much more comfortable and balanced.


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## jbrett14 (May 11, 2011)

I thought the same thing, until I bought a Zebralight. 

Having purchased several flood-type 3 x AAA lights in the past, I now wish I would have just spent the money in the first place, for the Zebralights. Now that I have experienced both, I would gladly give up two Petzl Tikkas for one Zebralight H501. Smaller, brighter, and only uses one battery.

In the past, one of my top priorities was "runtime", but the more I use my lights, the more I prefer to have only one battery vs. a longer runtime. More often than not, I don't use up a single battery at any one time anyway, and it's much easier to tote around 1 or 2 spares vs. 3 or 6.

I never would have thought I would be a fan of single battery lights, but I think Zebralight has made me a believer.

Jonny


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## Lynx_Arc (May 11, 2011)

jbrett14 said:


> I thought the same thing, until I bought a Zebralight.
> 
> Having purchased several flood-type 3 x AAA lights in the past, I now wish I would have just spent the money in the first place, for the Zebralights. Now that I have experienced both, I would gladly give up two Petzl Tikkas for one Zebralight H501. Smaller, brighter, and only uses one battery.
> 
> ...


 
I'm with you, I have several 3AAA lights and use a rayovac 1AA instead even though it has less runtime changing batteries is far easier to deal with.


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## hiuintahs (May 12, 2011)

jbrett14 said:


> Curious to hear from others as to why it seems there are so many 3 x AAA headlamps out there vs. lights with only 1 or 2 cells.
> 
> What is your favorite configuration and, if not 3 x AAA, can you provide logical reasons why it might be better than 3 x AAA.
> 
> ...



I think LEDninja on the other thread had the best answer. I'll add to it here. I ran some numbers on weight and run time and I'm not quite sure why 3 AAA's dominate at least from a technical standpoint.

As the more technical CPFers know, boost and buck circuits are basically the same expense to design and build. I’ve designed both………….so it really doesn’t have an advantage as to whether you are boosting the voltage or bucking (dropping) it. They both have the same efficiency. You just have to make sure that if the voltage is too low (ie: one battery), that the current draw is below the batteries capability at high beam.

So it really boils down to run time and weight as to which offers the best advantage. As others have mentioned the other issues are manufacturing costs, etc.

Here’s some examples using Eneloop batteries with an average voltage of 1.3v and their respective capacities of 750mAh and 2000mAh.

1AA 2AA 3AAA

Battery Weight 0.9oz 1.8oz. 1.2oz. 
Total Power 2.6Watt-hr 5.2Watt-hr 2.925Watt-hr

If we consider a fixed LED current of 350mA and a Vf of 3.25V, and an 85% efficiency of the regulator circuit then power out to the LED is 1.14 watts. Power out equals power in minus the 15% loss of the regulator circuit. Thus power in is 1.34 watts.

1AA 2AA 3AAA

Battery Current 1.03A 0.515A 0.344A
Run Time 1.94 hrs. 3.88 hrs. 2.18 hrs.
Run time per oz 2.155 2.155 1.817


Conclusion
I went through this whole exercise and I don’t think it proves anything other than the AA battery holds more energy per its weight than does the AAA………..but then we already knew that anyhow. I just wanted to see what the differences would be for run time.

To me, it looks like a toss-up as to whether you have 3AAA or 1AA and naturally its more convenient to only be dealing with one battery. But I think there is also mechanical symmetry involved with the design of the headlamp too. 3AAA batteries seem to be a good size to fit behind the body of the headlamp.

3AAA light output is going to last a little longer than 1AA and its only slightly heavier. 2AA light output will be obvious longer but also weighs more.

So other than the more expense of a Zebralight, this is sort of plug for the 1AA headlamp!

Sorry for the long post.


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## Bolster (May 12, 2011)

[email protected] good post, Hiuintahs. Thanks for running through the numbers for us.

That's a clip-and-save post.


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## robostudent5000 (May 12, 2011)

Bolster said:


> [email protected] good post, Hiuintahs. Thanks for running through the numbers for us.
> 
> That's a clip-and-save post.


 
agreed. excellent!


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## carrot (May 12, 2011)

My thought is that headlamps are almost exclusively used with alkalines except by power users (NiMH) and winter users (lithium). This is pretty easy to overlook, since Eneloops are as common as anything around here. Anyone who uses alkalines for any length of time will notice that the voltage sags pretty badly the more load you put on it (IOW, if you run an alkaline light on high it will dim very quickly), and if you have a one-cell light you'll be able to stretch out a lot more usage from it if you turn off the light to let the battery rest and then turn it on again. 

For a headlamp this is unacceptable as they are often used when no other lighting is available and the lights are used for LONG periods at a time when the user needs BOTH hands free. Worse still, the typical user may not carry spares and only buy batteries when the light is unusably dim.

With a 3xAAA light, we are able to fit a lot of alkaline batteries into a relatively small and light casing (the TIkka2 is a feathery 2.9oz with strap and batteries), the power load is distributed against three batteries instead of one. As hiuintahs calculated in the post above, when you use three batteries the draw on each is minuscule, perfect for alkalines which perform at their best and run for the longest when they are used gently. A nice side effect is that 3xAlkaline is right in the perfect voltage range for an LED or array of LEDs, so 3xAAA lights are able to gracefully dim down without ever leaving the user completely in the dark. Also good to note is that at such low draws there is so little voltage sag that any sag is pretty much undistinguishable to the user until the batteries are pretty much completely dead.

So actually, 3xAAA is an ideal form-factor for the application headlamps are traditionally used for (backpacking, camping, emergencies) _for the typical user_, not us lighting enthusiasts.

I actually really enjoy my 3xAAA headlamps (I have several) because of these exact reasons:
- alkaline AAA are readily available everywhere
- super long runtime; no need to change or charge batteries frequently
- ample warning before light is too dim to use (days of warning, rather than hours or minutes)

Last thing I'd like to note: output regulation is totally overrated on headlamps. When you use a light for such long periods at a time, the longer runtime is appreciated and the output drop is barely a concern.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 12, 2011)

hiuintahs said:


> I think LEDninja on the other thread had the best answer. I'll add to it here. I ran some numbers on weight and run time and I'm not quite sure why 3 AAA's dominate at least from a technical standpoint.
> 
> As the more technical CPFers know, boost and buck circuits are basically the same expense to design and build. I’ve designed both………….so it really doesn’t have an advantage as to whether you are boosting the voltage or bucking (dropping) it. They both have the same efficiency. You just have to make sure that if the voltage is too low (ie: one battery), that the current draw is below the batteries capability at high beam.
> 
> ...


 
All that is fine but too many 3AAA headlamps do not have buck circuits in them but rather a linear regulator which essentially just wastes the excess over your 3.25v so if you use 4.5v (3 alkalines) you waste 1.25v or about 27.8% of your power. If you use lithium AAAs that figure could rise to 1.7vx3 or wasting 1.85 of 5.1v or about 38% of your power. Not knowing which headlamps use buck circuits makes for a hard time telling what is a winner or not.
With Eneloops the loss is less perhaps 16% at 1.3v but off the charger it would be closer to 25% at 1.4-1.45v


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## hiuintahs (May 12, 2011)

Carrot,
You are correct. A single AA light is going to draw more current because the voltage is lower. If that battery is an alkaline as you point out then you won't get anywhere close to the capacity that the battery is rated at, at high current draw...............thus when it goes dimm..............let it sit for awhile and then use it up some more...........a real pain. Thus we see the advantage of a multi-cell headlamps because the voltage is higher (ie: lower current draw) and because a lot of folks out there are simply going to be using alkalines.

Linx Arc,
One of the reasons I picked the PT EOS as my headlamp is the fact that it was regulated. By regulated I mean current regulated (switching type) regardless of voltage change. Switching types are typically around 85% efficient which is about as good as it gets. (15% loss from running the control circuitry)

When you say linear regulated are you referring to voltage or current? Outside of using a switching type of current regulator I thought they'd just use a resistor. When I see the term linear regulated, that brings my thoughts to the regulation of voltage using linear voltage regulator IC's. Since the Vf knee of the LED has a pretty sharp transition between on and off and not much middle ground from which to regulate the LED, I would think that linear voltage regulation is a pretty poor way of controlling the current of an LED.........a way that I'd never consider doing it. The one advantage I suppose is that current can be held constant until the battery voltage drops below Vf.........something that isn't happening with the resistor. But all that wasted power while battery voltage is above the Vf!


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## Lynx_Arc (May 13, 2011)

hiuintahs said:


> Carrot,
> You are correct. A single AA light is going to draw more current because the voltage is lower. If that battery is an alkaline as you point out then you won't get anywhere close to the capacity that the battery is rated at, at high current draw...............thus when it goes dimm..............let it sit for awhile and then use it up some more...........a real pain. Thus we see the advantage of a multi-cell headlamps because the voltage is higher (ie: lower current draw) and because a lot of folks out there are simply going to be using alkalines.
> 
> Linx Arc,
> ...


 The PT EOS may have current regulation but I could guess most of the 3AAA lights use voltage regulation instead and yes there is a lot of wasted power the higher the voltage batteries you use by the figures I estimated. I have seen other lights here using 3AAAs apart that just use resistors too. I would guess the PT EOS is perhaps nowhere typical for 3AAA lights in design with most of them opting for cheaper solutions that essentially waste a lot more power as to make them essentially less effective than a 1AA solution with decent boost circuit. At low currents (lower than 100ma) a 3AAA headlamp has a very long runtime anyway such that a fancy circuit is not as needed. Todays 5mm LEDs give off plenty of light down to even 5ma such that headlamps can run for sometimes 100 hours or more with cheap solutions such as resisters or voltage regulators. personally I think the reason behind 3AAA headlamps is laziness of manufacturers to design better AA based headlamps without making them overpriced and gimmicky to help disguise their lack of doing so at reasonable prices. I still am looking for a decent 2AA cree headlamp that doesn't cost $50.


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## jag-engr (May 16, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I have seen other lights here using 3AAAs apart that just use resistors too. I would guess the PT EOS is perhaps nowhere typical for 3AAA lights in design with most of them opting for *cheaper solutions* that essentially waste a lot more power as to make them essentially less effective than a 1AA solution with decent boost circuit. At low currents (lower than 100ma) a 3AAA headlamp has a very long runtime anyway such that a fancy circuit is not as needed. ... personally I think *the reason behind 3AAA headlamps is laziness of manufacturers* to design better AA based headlamps without making them overpriced and gimmicky to help disguise their lack of doing so at reasonable prices.



I'm with Lynx on this one - the main reasons are economy and laziness. Most 3AAA headlamps are cheap and not well thought-out or very carefully designed. Resistors are cheaper, so they are used. Other manufacturers command a premium price, but the company is just too lazy to try something new (Petzl).

It's not all bad, though, since, as carrot points out, the 3xAAA configuration is gentler on the alkaline cells that most consumers are going to be using.


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## carrot (May 16, 2011)

jag-engr said:


> but the company is just too lazy to try something new (Petzl).


 
Not true. Petzl recently released a programmable, rechargeable battery that works with ALL of their Tikka2 series headlamps. Quite an ingenious solution to the 3xAAA "problem".

http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/headlamps/core-rechargeable-battery

I think a lot of people really underestimate just how important it is to be gentle to your alkalines. In your typical high power 1xAlkaline light you will have lots of light at the very first minute, gradually dim, and a fairly quick decline to useless output. It would be insanely dangerous if a headlamp, often used in situations when you need both your hands free under long hours (climbing, caving, or hiking) suddenly dropped to nearly zero output. Since most headlamps are targeted towards industries that require a gradual "failure" mode for the batteries, the 3xAAA configuration is ideal, since very few consumers choose to use NiMH or the very expensive Lithium batteries in their lights.


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## Bolster (May 17, 2011)

carrot said:


> My thought is that headlamps are almost exclusively used with alkalines ....



Just peeked back into this thread and found this post. Very good, thought provoking, leads me to an appreciation of 3xAAA I had not considered before.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 17, 2011)

Bolster said:


> Just peeked back into this thread and found this post. Very good, thought provoking, leads me to an appreciation of 3xAAA I had not considered before.


 
till you have alkalines leak and ruin your headlamp.......


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## gcbryan (May 17, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> till you have alkalines leak and ruin your headlamp.......


 
Have you ever actually had this happen when you are somewhat active in your use of the headlamp (or any other application)?

I know that they do leak but the only things that I have had ruined by leaking alkalines were calculators or whatever that I left the batteries in and then didn't use or check them for years.

As long as you don't store alkalines in your headlamps for years unused is this a major problem?


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## Lynx_Arc (May 17, 2011)

gcbryan said:


> Have you ever actually had this happen when you are somewhat active in your use of the headlamp (or any other application)?
> 
> I know that they do leak but the only things that I have had ruined by leaking alkalines were calculators or whatever that I left the batteries in and then didn't use or check them for years.
> 
> As long as you don't store alkalines in your headlamps for years unused is this a major problem?



I have had batteries leak in devices I use often, all brands. I use mostly nimh in stuff now because of the risk. There are many threads about alkalines leaking. Don't trust them in anything valuable.


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## Beacon of Light (May 17, 2011)

on low or moon modes the Zebralight, whether a H-501, H51 or H31, it will eat the lunch of ANY 3xAAA. I dare you to find one with longer runtime than the Zebralight.



jbrett14 said:


> I thought the same thing, until I bought a Zebralight.
> 
> Having purchased several flood-type 3 x AAA lights in the past, I now wish I would have just spent the money in the first place, for the Zebralights. Now that I have experienced both, I would gladly give up two Petzl Tikkas for one Zebralight H501. Smaller, brighter, and only uses one battery.
> 
> ...


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## gcbryan (May 19, 2011)

Beacon of Light said:


> on low or moon modes the Zebralight, whether a H-501, H51 or H31, it will eat the lunch of ANY 3xAAA. I dare you to find one with longer runtime than the Zebralight.


 
I think the poster you were quoting already agrees with you. However, why would a Zebralight have a longer run time than any other light having the same emitter? One CR123 while arguably a better choice doesn't have more capacity than 3 AAA's.


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## beerwax (May 19, 2011)

i can see the sense in the 3 aaa format. 3 alkalines or even heavy buty and the light will work reasonably well, and they are available everywhere. and for the enthusiast there are better aaa batteries freely available to get your better performance. and 3 aaa side by side pack into a nice rectangular box . non flashaholics i know that use a headlight apreciate, i think, that with intermittent use the alkalines never really go flat, and the light , although not particularly bright , keeps working.


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## jag-engr (May 19, 2011)

gcbryan said:


> However, why would a Zebralight have a longer run time than any other light having the same emitter?


 For the same reason Fenix gets a longer runtime than DX lights using the same LED - *better circuits*. Zebralight is getting 200 lumens out of a normal AA cell - they simply use better and more efficient circuits, which, of course, are more expensive. If you have ever used a Zebralight, you would know how ridiculously long they can run on one cell.


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## jag-engr (May 19, 2011)

carrot said:


> Not true. Petzl recently released a programmable, rechargeable battery that works with ALL of their Tikka2 series headlamps. Quite an ingenious solution to the 3xAAA "problem".
> 
> http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/headlamps/core-rechargeable-battery


 The CORE is a Li-Ion cell, if I'm not mistaken. I do have to hand it to Petzl for making it fit into a (3)AAA compartment - good thinking! Unfortunately, a Tikka XP2 and CORE setup cost $110, while a good Zebralight H51 can be had for ~ $63. Throw in a couple NiMH cells and a charger for about $20, and you're still ~ $25 cheaper than the Tikka.



carrot said:


> It would be insanely dangerous if a headlamp, often used in situations when you need both your hands free under long hours (climbing, caving, or hiking) suddenly dropped to nearly zero output. Since most headlamps are targeted towards industries that require a gradual "failure" mode for the batteries, the 3xAAA configuration is ideal, since very few consumers choose to use NiMH or the very expensive Lithium batteries in their lights.


 You do have a point about the sudden drop-off with well-regulated lights. As an alternative for those who want better-regulated headlamps, one could go with an H501w and an H51w. Just leave the H501w running on low in case the other one goes out - it can go for days!

Of course another advantage of using alkalines is that they work fine submerged in water. I've opened a Petzl Tikka XP after caving to find it rather wet inside, but the batteries were fine and the light never even flickered.


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## gcbryan (May 19, 2011)

I've had a 18650 flood underwater (dive light) and it continued to work as well. This was in salt water no less!


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## brighthead (May 20, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I have had batteries leak in devices I use often, all brands. I use mostly nimh in stuff now because of the risk. There are many threads about alkalines leaking. Don't trust them in anything valuable.


 
What gets to me is manufacturers still insist on bundling them. I have rechargeables and want to use them but they insist I must want disposables anyway. 

I would think most people should be using Ni-MH these days (especially here) but I still see so many disposables being sold. Boggles the mind. Very few scenarios where they are needed these days.


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## brighthead (May 20, 2011)

jag-engr said:


> The CORE is a Li-Ion cell, if I'm not mistaken. I do have to hand it to Petzl for making it fit into a (3)AAA compartment - good thinking! Unfortunately, a Tikka XP2 and CORE setup cost $110...



88 dollars on Amazon. 

Still a tad pricey compared to some Eneloops but far closer to the Zebralight. CORE is programmable to get the exact amount of light too, and you get a charger and cable...so it's not just a battery.

Personally I've been reading a lot about the high failure rates with the Zebralight models, so I wouldn't touch them. Distribution worldwide is also far, far less than Petzl. Making returns a hassle.


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## electrothump (May 20, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> It is a conspiracy to sell more 4AAA packs of alkaline batteries


 
Ha! You may be correct! I use rechargers 90% of the time anyway. Someone on here posted that lensers lights reccomend primaries only. I'm not sure why. I use ni-mh in mine with no problems. Also, when I buy batteries I buy in bulk. The only way I would buy a four pack is if I had to.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 20, 2011)

electrothump said:


> Ha! You may be correct! I use rechargers 90% of the time anyway. Someone on here posted that lensers lights reccomend primaries only. I'm not sure why. I use ni-mh in mine with no problems. Also, when I buy batteries I buy in bulk. The only way I would buy a four pack is if I had to.


 
I think one reason some (poorly designed) 3AAA lights recommend alkalines is safety issues. In case of circuit failure alkalines don't have nearly as much power they can supply to a dead short to cause problems. I do say it definitely profits a battery company to not recommend rechargable batteries in lights that are able to perform to the listed specs on the package so they can sell more batteries. Then there is also the ridiculous runtimes lights have (usually off alkalines) that nimh tend to fall way short due to their ability to hold current more constant over the runtime of the light while alkalines quickly fall in voltage throttling output till they are only able to blind an oversensitive gnat with no eyelids glued to the LED emitter.


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## carrot (May 21, 2011)

brighthead said:


> I would think most people should be using Ni-MH these days (especially here) but I still see so many disposables being sold. Boggles the mind. Very few scenarios where they are needed these days.


I still use disposables in most of my lights. Here's why: if I were to equip every one of my lights with rechargeables it'd cost a fortune!

I did just order a CORE Petzl Tikka 2 XP as I was able to get one for a very reasonable price. I look forward to testing Petzl's reprogrammable Li-ion battery pack.


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## brighthead (May 21, 2011)

carrot said:


> I still use disposables in most of my lights. Here's why: if I were to equip every one of my lights with rechargeables it'd cost a fortune!



But you don't use them all at the same time, right? So you don't need to have them all equipped. For me that is the same reason I don't buy disposables: *it would cost me a fortune*. A few charges and they have paid for themselves, easily.

Plus I can't stand the thought of my batteries being in landfill somewhere, junking up the place with toxic ooze and wasted resources


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## cccpull (May 21, 2011)

When the power is out, there is no way to recharge, that's when you need disposables. To play around (as in this hobby) or if you use your lights daily, such as LE work or bicycling at night, then rechargeables make sense. I do both, but in real emergencies, disposables are it.


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## EngrPaul (May 21, 2011)

No driver required.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 21, 2011)

cccpull said:


> When the power is out, there is no way to recharge, that's when you need disposables. To play around (as in this hobby) or if you use your lights daily, such as LE work or bicycling at night, then rechargeables make sense. I do both, but in real emergencies, disposables are it.



It takes a good chunk of change to get enough rechargeable batteries to cover your bases. I still don't quite have enough batteries for everything but am close. Alkalines do still have their place for me in rarely used inexpensive lights that if a leakage occurs I won't cringe. locally I can get alkaline AA/AAAs for as cheap as 50 cents each, but finding LSD nimh or lithium primaries cheaper than $2 each is nearly impossible. Imagine losing a light with 4AAs in it..... if they were duraloops that would be $12 worth of batteries but alkalines could be as cheap as $2 worth. I have one 3AAA headlamp in my car with alkalines, and a few other strategically placed cheap lights that also use alkalines that I so rarely use putting nimh in them even LSD would have me checking them every few years to recharge them tying up batteries that could be used more regularly elsewhere. In other words you spend $10 on a headlamp and then spend $20 on a charger and $12 on 4 batteries and find yourself having to use 16 sets of alkalines worth of runtime to break even on your investment of rechargable batteries.


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## robostudent5000 (May 21, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> It takes a good chunk of change to get enough rechargeable batteries to cover your bases. I still don't quite have enough batteries for everything but am close. Alkalines do still have their place for me in rarely used inexpensive lights that if a leakage occurs I won't cringe. locally I can get alkaline AA/AAAs for as cheap as 50 cents each, but finding LSD nimh or lithium primaries cheaper than $2 each is nearly impossible. Imagine losing a light with 4AAs in it..... if they were duraloops that would be $12 worth of batteries but alkalines could be as cheap as $2 worth. I have one 3AAA headlamp in my car with alkalines, and a few other strategically placed cheap lights that also use alkalines that I so rarely use putting nimh in them even LSD would have me checking them every few years to recharge them tying up batteries that could be used more regularly elsewhere. In other words you spend $10 on a headlamp and then spend $20 on a charger and $12 on 4 batteries and find yourself having to use 16 sets of alkalines worth of runtime to break even on your investment of rechargable batteries.


 
it's not that hard to find AAA LSD's for $1.50 or less. and i see white top duraloop AAA's that go on eBay for $5-8 for a 4 pack quite often.

and there are good chargers for under $10 too.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 21, 2011)

robostudent5000 said:


> it's not that hard to find AAA LSD's for $1.50 or less. and i see white top duraloop AAA's that go on eBay for $5-8 for a 4 pack quite often.
> 
> and there are good chargers for under $10 too.


 
I stated locally in my post, as I figured most people opting for 3AAA headlamps would purchase them locally which means they would also buy their charger and batteries locally too. If people were reasearching online I think many of them would avoid 3AAA headlamps and get into smart chargers and LSD cells also. But for the average person that doesn't research online they would stick with alkalines and 3AAA format and pay $20 for a headlamp and buy alkalines for it.


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## robostudent5000 (May 21, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I stated locally in my post, as I figured most people opting for 3AAA headlamps would purchase them locally which means they would also buy their charger and batteries locally too. If people were reasearching online I think many of them would avoid 3AAA headlamps and get into smart chargers and LSD cells also. But for the average person that doesn't research online they would stick with alkalines and 3AAA format and pay $20 for a headlamp and buy alkalines for it.


 
i was just trying to be helpful.

anyway, i bought my 3AAA headlamps before there were any legit single AA headlamps available. LSD's were just a good way to improve the performance of these older lights without having to spend $6o on a Zebra, which, even now, is the only single AA headlamp that i can think of that actually has good levels, beam pattern, and runtime. 

whatever. i think most of the complaints about the 3AAA format are negated if you use LSD's and can get them cheap.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 21, 2011)

robostudent5000 said:


> i was just trying to be helpful.
> 
> anyway, i bought my 3AAA headlamps before there were any legit single AA headlamps available. LSD's were just a good way to improve the performance of these older lights without having to spend $6o on a Zebra, which, even now, is the only single AA headlamp that i can think of that actually has good levels, beam pattern, and runtime.
> 
> whatever. i think most of the complaints about the 3AAA format are negated if you use LSD's and can get them cheap.


 
If you rarely use it LSDs may not be a good investment. They start with ~800mah capacity vs about 1100 for alkalines and over a year alkalines would have less than 1% self discharge while the LSD cells would lose from 120-160mah making it about 650-700mah which means 50% less capacity top it off with better regulation of nimh and runtime could be considerably less.


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## robostudent5000 (May 21, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> If you rarely use it LSDs may not be a good investment. They start with ~800mah capacity vs about 1100 for alkalines and over a year alkalines would have less than 1% self discharge while the LSD cells would lose from 120-160mah making it about 650-700mah which means 50% less capacity top it off with better regulation of nimh and runtime could be considerably less.



i use my lamps on duraloops all the time, and the runtimes seem just fine.

but anyway, the capacity doesn't really work the way you mentioned. alkalines run down faster than their stated capacity in high drain applications, so even a partially discharged LSD would run longer than an alkaline at high brightness. if you're looking for a dim light for emergency use, i guess i doesn't really matter. but then if you're storing a light for emergency use, it doesn't make sense to use alkalines either because of their tendency to leak when stored in devices longterm.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 21, 2011)

robostudent5000 said:


> i use my lamps on duraloops all the time, and the runtimes seem just fine.


 
I figure all but the poorest designed ones would do fine. If you have a headlamp that uses only 5mm LEDs the runtime could be pretty long.... 2 LEDs at 20ma each would run for well over 20 hours probably on nimh. 20 hours runtime is like 3 pretty full evenings of using it almost all the time. I remember the power outage we had in 2007 I had very few LED lights and I used a 3AAA 3x5mm LED headlamp and had it on for many hours it had such long runtime that I didn't bother to turn it off while I was moving around. I used a second headlamp to read by in bed.... 3AAA energizer 2/1 LED with slide switch. A decent starter LED cheapo I got on clearance for $4 now they are almost $15 not worth it IMO.


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## robostudent5000 (May 21, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I figure all but the poorest designed ones would do fine. If you have a headlamp that uses only 5mm LEDs the runtime could be pretty long.... 2 LEDs at 20ma each would run for well over 20 hours probably on nimh. 20 hours runtime is like 3 pretty full evenings of using it almost all the time. I remember the power outage we had in 2007 I had very few LED lights and I used a 3AAA 3x5mm LED headlamp and had it on for many hours it had such long runtime that I didn't bother to turn it off while I was moving around. I used a second headlamp to read by in bed.... 3AAA energizer 2/1 LED with slide switch. A decent starter LED cheapo I got on clearance for $4 now they are almost $15 not worth it IMO.



actually, a low drain application like that's probably the only setup where alkalines are preferable to LSD nimh's. the threshold where nimh's start to outperform alkalines in a 3AAA headlamp seems to be currents above 100 mA.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 21, 2011)

robostudent5000 said:


> actually, a low drain application like that's probably the only setup where alkalines are preferable to LSD nimh's. the threshold where nimh's start to outperform alkalines in a 3AAA headlamp seems to be currents above 100 mA.


If they solved the leakage issues of alkalines they would be ideal for 3AAA lights using 5mm LEDs. It only takes one battery leaking bad to make you want to spend the higher price of nimh for peace of mind.


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## robostudent5000 (May 21, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> If they solved the leakage issues of alkalines they would be ideal for 3AAA lights using 5mm LEDs. It only takes one battery leaking bad to make you want to spend the higher price of nimh for peace of mind.


 
yeah. because of the battery issue, i just don't think cheap headlamps make very good emergency lights. like you mentioned, it doesn't make much sense to tie up 3 LSD nimh's in a light you seldom use. alkalines can leak. and cheap headlamps can't take lithiums. that's why i think a cheap CR123 hand held is the best light for emergency backup duty. 

for daily use though, it's hard to beat a headlamp on eneloops. even if it runs on 3 AAAs.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 21, 2011)

robostudent5000 said:


> yeah. because of the battery issue, i just don't think headlamps make very good cheap emergency lights. like you mentioned, it doesn't make much sense to tie up 3 LSD nimh's in a light you seldom use. alkalines can leak. and cheap headlamps can't take lithiums. that's why i think a cheap CR123 hand held is the best light for emergency backup duty.
> 
> for daily use though, it's hard to beat a headlamp on eneloops. even if it runs on 3 AAAs.


 
One of my cheap headlamps you can remove it from the headband and it had a magnet on it. I have used it for light on a toolbox or washing machine I was working on even clipping it on a car. I would like to see a well designed 2AAA headlamp with a cree and 3 modes that would work well with all battery types. I would want about 90 minutes on high 5-6 hours on medium and 16+ hours on low. The light would be small enough to toss in a pocket or toolbox or a pocket of an electronic carry case for a camera or something. If they could make it out of decent plastic and charge $25 for it I would be in for one.


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## brighthead (May 22, 2011)

cccpull said:


> When the power is out, there is no way to recharge, that's when you need disposables.



That's why you carry a spare set that's charged; with low self-discharge Eneloops that's entirely practical.

*4-pack AAA Eneloop at a reputable USA retailer: $7.95*
Around 2 bucks per battery.

2 sets (3AAA x 2) plus two AAA spares are around $16 for 2x 4-packs.

That's around 4-5x the cost of the average alkaline, ready to be used even after extended storage (as long as they are not exposed to excessive heat). Charge the batteries that many times and you are ahead.
_
If you are buying an AA/AAA charger for the first time, it will take longer to get back the investment but a cheap charger is not much at all._ There are many offerings here for not too much money, including USB chargers.

The case for disposables is pretty weak in my mind, especially if you have multiple devices that use AA or AAA (or you simply buy those cheap AA, C and D adaptors for use in other devices).


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## cccpull (May 23, 2011)

brighthead said:


> The case for disposables is pretty weak in my mind, especially if you have multiple devices that use AA or AAA (or you simply buy those cheap AA, C and D adaptors for use in other devices).


 
If you're ever out of power for several days, you better have stocked up and made sure your rechargeable batteries were ready. :shakehead


Not everyone has "flashlights" as their hobby.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 23, 2011)

cccpull said:


> If you're ever out of power for several days, you better have stocked up and made sure your rechargeable batteries were ready. :shakehead
> 
> 
> Not everyone has "flashlights" as their hobby.


Two words to that..... Car Charger. 
I used one for 4.5 days recharging 24 nimh (non LSD) AAs. I never even touched my 40 alkalines I had bought previously. I also used a cheap 3LED 3AAA headlamp at times and it still has the original heavy duty batteries in it. I probably used it for about 6-8 hours during that time. Low power 3AAA headlamps are good in an outage as they run a loooooooong time off even the cheapest batteries.


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## Monocrom (May 23, 2011)

Car charger is indeed a good investment. Back before they killed analog signals, I had a hand-held TV that took 4AA cells. At first, I spent too much on bulk alkies. The rechargeable AAs were excellent. That little TV came in great for passing the time on my breaks.

As for headlamps, I tried replacing my PT EOS in my BOB with a good one that ran on AA cells. I'll likely get a Zebralight down the road, but I'm good with the EOS in my bag. Loaded it up with Energizer E2 lithiums. Have an extra 4-pack for it that's going in my BOB. That way, I have extra cells for it, and an extra cell for my Fenix L0D that is now going to live on my main keyring. (Photon Freedom is excellent, but tends to sometimes switch on accidentally in my pocket.)


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## cccpull (May 23, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> Two words to that..... Car Charger.
> I used one for 4.5 days recharging 24 nimh (non LSD) AAs. I never even touched my 40 alkalines I had bought previously. I also used a cheap 3LED 3AAA headlamp at times and it still has the original heavy duty batteries in it. I probably used it for about 6-8 hours during that time. Low power 3AAA headlamps are good in an outage as they run a loooooooong time off even the cheapest batteries.


 
I have all that, but like I said before, not everyone is into this hobby.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 23, 2011)

cccpull said:


> I have all that, but like I said before, not everyone is into this hobby.


 
I would say very few people are knowledgable about LED lights and chargers and batteries. This is why 3AAA lights are popular as people buy the cheapest bright light they can get and try it out and for occasional use they are "acceptable". It is only when someone uses a light for a serious tool constantly that most people will try and find better solutions that are either a lot more expensive in the stores or available at more specialized stores that are less often traveled. If you go to Walmart, Target, Home Depot, Lowes, etc... the majority of headlamps are 3AAA and a lot of the hand held lights are 3AAA also with *high end* ones costing even in the $20 range. If Mag would make a AA based headlamp then perhaps the public would think less of the 3AAA versions.


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## gcbryan (May 23, 2011)

AAA is all that Petzl, Princton Tec, Black Diamond make for battery integrated (in the head) headlamps. These aren't commonly available in Target, Walmart, etc.

Most people who use those are somewhat knowledge but they just don't have any choice (and there are some decent arguments for AAA).


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## carrot (May 23, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> the majority of headlamps are 3AAA and a lot of the hand held lights are 3AAA also with *high end* ones costing even in the $20 range. If Mag would make a AA based headlamp then perhaps the public would think less of the 3AAA versions.


I just received a headlamp today that bucks this trend. It is a single AA headlamp, $30 (with a $20 version available), super lightweight with a floody beam. I'll spend the next few weeks evaluating it. So far I am very excited to have it and think it is a pretty clever design.

I am still going to claim that I see no problem with 3xAAA headlamps and in fact I still rather like them, not necessarily because of the 3xAAA requirement, although as I pointed out earlier I still think that 3xAAA offers significant advantages for the target market of most headlamps.


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## robostudent5000 (May 23, 2011)

carrot said:


> I just received a headlamp today that bucks this trend. It is a single AA headlamp, $30 (with a $20 version available), super lightweight with a floody beam. I'll spend the next few weeks evaluating it. So far I am very excited to have it and think it is a pretty clever design.
> 
> I am still going to claim that I see no problem with 3xAAA headlamps and in fact I still rather like them, not necessarily because of the 3xAAA requirement, although as I pointed out earlier I still think that 3xAAA offers significant advantages for the target market of most headlamps.



one thing i noticed about the S-flex is that the high mode isn't very bright. i'm thinking that they did this to keep the current draw relatively low so that the light could be used with a single alkaline w/o a big dip in performance. this would be in line with the idea that mainstream headlamps are built to work effectively with alkaline batteries. what do think?


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## carrot (May 23, 2011)

robostudent5000 said:


> one thing i noticed about the S-flex is that the high mode isn't very bright. i'm thinking that they did this to keep the current draw relatively low so that the light could be used with a single alkaline w/o a big dip in performance. this would be in line with the idea that mainstream headlamps are built to work effectively with alkaline batteries. what do think?


 
Will require more testing to decide for certain. IMHO the S-Flex is plenty bright.


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## robostudent5000 (May 23, 2011)

carrot said:


> Will require more testing to decide for certain. IMHO the S-Flex is plenty bright.


 
i meant compared to some of the higher output single AA headlamps like a fenix HL21 and zebra H51 which both crankout 90+ lumens on max. i agree that 25 lumens is plenty bright most of the time.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 24, 2011)

carrot said:


> I just received a headlamp today that bucks this trend. It is a single AA headlamp, $30 (with a $20 version available), super lightweight with a floody beam. I'll spend the next few weeks evaluating it. So far I am very excited to have it and think it is a pretty clever design.
> 
> I am still going to claim that I see no problem with 3xAAA headlamps and in fact I still rather like them, not necessarily because of the 3xAAA requirement, although as I pointed out earlier I still think that 3xAAA offers significant advantages for the target market of most headlamps.


 
that 1AA headlamp sounds intriguing if it is not the energizer one in stores. I have several 3AAA headlamps and only use one of them I keep in my storeroom when I work on electronic or computer stuff so I don't have to go get my rayovac 1AA headlamp which is my go to model. I just wish rayovac would redesign it with an updated cree and forget colored LEDs just give the white LED in it 3 modes with one being a long running low. I would love to see a 2AA headlamp with batteries in front or a 2AAA headlamp with them in front that had a decent LED on it... My river rock 2AAA is not bright enough and 0.5watt LEDs are blotchy looking on output. yuck.


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## carrot (May 24, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I would love to see a 2AA headlamp with batteries in front or a 2AAA headlamp with them in front that had a decent LED on it... My river rock 2AAA is not bright enough and 0.5watt LEDs are blotchy looking on output. yuck.


You have seen the Petzl Pixa and Princeton Tec Byte, right?


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## ringzero (May 24, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I would love to see a 2AA headlamp with batteries in front or a 2AAA headlamp with them in front that had a decent LED on it... My river rock 2AAA is not bright enough and 0.5watt LEDs are blotchy looking on output. yuck.




I have lights with 0.5 W Rigel LEDs with decent beams - blotchy output is more likely due to lousy optics.

Streamlight is gradually, really moving at a glacial pace, updating the emitters in their lineup of older, lower priced lights.

Eventually they'll probably get around to their Enduro 2AAA headlamp, which is functionally the same as your RiverRock headlamp.

If they put in a modern emitter with better tint that doubled the output with the same runtime, and changed nothing else, the Enduro would be a really great headlamp IMO.

There don't seem to be any competitors using 2AAA cells that are as waterproof and rugged as the Enduro.

.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 24, 2011)

carrot said:


> You have seen the Petzl Pixa and Princeton Tec Byte, right?


 
The Pixas are too much, if I was going to spend that much it would be for a primary headlamp. The Byte looks interesting but not sure I even care to spend much on a headlamp I have to click past a red 5mm LED. Red LEDs are almost unuseful to me I could get by better with a dimmed white LED instead it would be a lot more useful. I may have to see if the byte is easily moddable and the low/high output on the white LED. Maybe you could put in a nice white 5mm LED in place of the red and make it into a 3 level light. 35 lumens pre ansi may not quite be as bright as I would like. I am thinking about 50 lumens on high and a 25 lumen low would be more suitable for me. I will have to read a bit more on that. I have a few 3AAA headlamps but none of them are a go to type headlamp for me I just don't really like them either dim 5mm LEDs or tight luxeons beams that saturate a spot too much blinding you almost if it hits the wrong thing.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 24, 2011)

ringzero said:


> I have lights with 0.5 W Rigel LEDs with decent beams - blotchy output is more likely due to lousy optics.
> 
> Streamlight is gradually, really moving at a glacial pace, updating the emitters in their lineup of older, lower priced lights.
> 
> ...


 
My river rock 2AAA has a reflector but the nature of the 5mm LED is such that the reflector either makes for a splotchy more flood or a pinpoint unimpressive beam. I just never used it and was considering upgrading the LED in it but found no good solution. The battery door design was not very sturdy either.


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## ringzero (May 24, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> My river rock 2AAA has a reflector but the nature of the 5mm LED is such that the reflector either makes for a splotchy more flood or a pinpoint unimpressive beam. I just never used it and was considering upgrading the LED in it but found no good solution. The battery door design was not very sturdy either.




I've never owned a RiverRock headlamp, but do own four SL Enduros. Maybe the RiverRock headlamp isn't the same as Enduro. I've read on CPF that it's the same, but maybe it's different.

The SL Enduro has, to my eyes, a decent beam - bright spillbeam with a smallish hotspot with a bit of throw. The big downside to the Enduro beam is a strong bluish tint. The tint doesn't bother me that much during actual use, but it's there and would really bug a lot of people.

All of my Enduros are over 4 years old and have seen a fair amount of use with no issues whatsoever. The battery compartment doors are all still OK. Switches all OK. Ratcheting pivots all OK. In fact, my Enduros have proven quite durable.

.


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## robostudent5000 (May 24, 2011)

Lynx_Arc said:


> My river rock 2AAA has a reflector but the nature of the 5mm LED is such that the reflector either makes for a splotchy more flood or a pinpoint unimpressive beam. I just never used it and was considering upgrading the LED in it but found no good solution. The battery door design was not very sturdy either.


 
it's not that hard to swap the LED on an Enduro / RR 2AAA. if you pop out the reflector and desolder the stock emitter, you can wire in a 12-14 mm star on top of the retaining plate and fit in a 10-16mm optic, and turn it into a mini PT Eos. the hi mode ends up being pretty close to the Eos's medium. the hardest part is finding a wide angle optic of that size for cheap, but narrow angle 16mm optics are easy to find for about a buck a piece.

also, i've heard complaints about the battery door before, but have never had problems with any of mine.

note: this is getting way off topic. my apologies for contributing to the tangent.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 25, 2011)

robostudent5000 said:


> it's not that hard to swap the LED on an Enduro / RR 2AAA. if you pop out the reflector and desolder the stock emitter, you can wire in a 12-14 mm star on top of the retaining plate and fit in a 10-16mm optic, and turn it into a mini PT Eos. the hi mode ends up being pretty close to the Eos's medium. the hardest part is finding a wide angle optic of that size for cheap, but narrow angle 16mm optics are easy to find for about a buck a piece.
> 
> also, i've heard complaints about the battery door before, but have never had problems with any of mine.
> 
> note: this is getting way off topic. my apologies for contributing to the tangent.


 
I think I will just leave it the way it is and get some diffuser film for it and make it floody instead. One end of the battery door latch broke so I have to use a rubber band to hold it on in case it gets bumped the batteries won't fall out. 
As far as getting off topic, a little but it makes a point that even though there are other non 3AAA headlamps out there they are few and far between because they rarely end up in stores at the cheap prices the 3AAA ones do.


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## brighthead (May 26, 2011)

cccpull said:


> If you're ever out of power for several days, you better have stocked up and made sure your rechargeable batteries were ready. :shakehead
> 
> 
> Not everyone has "flashlights" as their hobby.



Have to disagree here.

Do you have to be a flashlight enthusiast to keep one or two sets of batteries charged and ready? I don't think so. But if you are thinking in terms of loss of power for days, aren't you already one? 

For a headlamp, it's easy to run on many hours on one set to cover two or three nights without power easily. Probably the same for all but the really high-powered ones with no low power modes (these are the ones that sell to the real enthusiasts right?)

Even if you only use your headlamp once a year, there are AAA-to-AA plastic adaptors to make use of your investment in other products. As there are for AA to C. AA to D. Lots of ways rechargeables can pay off in other devices too, if you are concerned with the higher up-front costs and not getting your money's worth. Personally I have bike lights, remotes and kitchen timers and graphing calculators that all use AAA natively. Some wireless computer mice do too.

The argument for disposables is a non-argument here


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## cccpull (May 26, 2011)

brighthead said:


> Have to disagree here.
> 
> The argument for disposables is a non-argument here


 
Okay. :thumbsup:


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## jag-engr (Jun 3, 2011)

carrot said:


> I still use disposables in most of my lights. Here's why: if I were to equip every one of my lights with rechargeables it'd cost a fortune!


carrot, you know far more about lights than I do, but I would like to respectfully present a different perspective on using NiMH cells.

For the best results with NiMH cells, you wouldn't want to put them in every light you own. NiMH cells are really only good for lights that are used frequently. For critical applications that may be stored for months or years between uses, L91's or L92's are the only way to go. For infrequent use that isn't critical, I'd leave the lights empty and pop in some fresh NiMH's as I was ready to use them.

As far as the cost, though, NiMH cells cost about $4~5 each, though they can be purchased much cheaper on-line or during sales. However, normal Duracell cells cost about $0.50 each. You'd break even on the NiMH if you could get ten cycles out of them. In all likelihood, you'll get many more than that out of them, though. Again, don't buy NiMH for every light you have, just for however many you'll be using at once.



carrot said:


> I did just order a CORE Petzl Tikka 2 XP as I was able to get one for a very reasonable price. I look forward to testing Petzl's reprogrammable Li-ion battery pack.


 Does it allow you to program the output of each mode or simply how the battery pack steps down as it is depleted? One of my beefs with Petzl (other than using a lot of batteries) is that their modes are all jammed together - they don't have a very low mode and after running a half hour or so, low, medium, high, and boost are all the same brightness. Granted, that was with the original Tikka XP and Myo XP and I'm sure their modes are more spaced out, now.



carrot said:


> Will require more testing to decide for certain. IMHO the S-Flex is plenty bright.


I'm interested to hear your opinions on the Mammut S-Flex. It sounds like a worthy contender to possibly replace the backup role of the Petzl e+Lite. I love the Petzl e+Lite, but the batteries are expensive and hard to find. FWIW, I wish Petzl would consider a built-in Li-Ion battery on the e+Lite.


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## shao.fu.tzer (Jun 3, 2011)

jag-engr said:


> carrot, you know far more about lights than I do, but I would like to respectfully present a different perspective on using NiMH cells.
> 
> For the best results with NiMH cells, you wouldn't want to put them in every light you own. NiMH cells are really only good for lights that are used frequently. For critical applications that may be stored for months or years between uses, L91's or L92's are the only way to go.



Agreed, I keep L91 an 92s in all of my AA and AAA bearing lights... I got tired of Alkies leaking their guts out into my lights. Now I just kinda pop them in and forget about them until I need them. The 2025 expiration date adds confidence as well...

I know alkalines tend to start the process which results in leaking from the first time they're used (or so I've heard) - Would one have to worry about that with L91/92s or is the chemistry significantly different so that it isn't a concern? Has anyone had a "Wonder AA" leak in a light or other battery-operated device yet?


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