# Streamlight Argo HP Observations



## strat1080 (Aug 21, 2007)

For the first time I took my new Argo HP with me on a mountaineering trip. What I discovered is that it was extremely comfortable and the beam is very useful. I know many don't care for the artifacts but they didn't affect its utilization whatsoever. The tint in mine is pretty good and the beam pattern is the best of any headlamp I've ever used. It is nice and floody but still has some very good throw. My experience with headlamps is that they are always either very throwy or very floody. This is a nice compromise. 

Others in my party had a very hard time making out the trail. I never once questioned where I was going. Others were using PT and Petzl as well as some cheap Wal-Mart headlamps. The nicest thing of all is that the 123 Lithium batteries weren't affected by the cold temperatures that we encountered at 12,000 feet before dawn. Sure you can use AAA Lithium batteries but they are more expensive than SF 123 Lithium batteries with much less capacity. They also typically require 3 cells. 

I find that the size and weight of the Argo HP is very good for the performance offered by the headlamp. Sure there are lighter headlamps but I don't care for the 3AAA configuration as AAA batteries are rather weak and I require lithium batteries for my activities. It is rather expensive and not practical to use lithiums in this setup. The bottom line is that I really like this headlamp and feel its perfect for my activities despite the negative reputation it has here on CPF. To me its the perfect combination of size, weight, and power. The beam is absolutely perfect for hiking, climbing, and backpacking. It lights up the trail very well and throws a good distance.


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## coors (Aug 21, 2007)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this headlamp. Is your lamp stock or have you modded it?.. like TigerhawkT3 shows in the u-tube videos: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Streamlight+Argo+HP+Seoul+Mod,+Part&search=Search
I stumbled on the how-to videos a few days ago and have thought about getting a Streamlight Argo Hp to mod to a Seoul emitter. Any idea whether the cheap CR123a batteries (blue or grey) on eBay are any good? I've been buying the lithium aaa batteries for about $1 apiece on eBay, but as you said... the CR123 batteries are cheaper.

coors


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## coors (Aug 21, 2007)

Also, I forgot to ask... will the rcr123a (rechargable lith-ion) batteries work in this headlamp? If so, what kind of performance do these give compared to the cr123a batteries?

coors


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## strat1080 (Aug 25, 2007)

My headlamp is not modified. I just got it a month ago. Apparently it can use a Pila rechargable cell. For my needs, I don't see much of a requirement for modding this light. It seems like all the mods turn this into a thrower. For what I need a headlamp for I need a beam that throws but also lights up a good area. The spill is adequately bright and lights up a good area. There is no distinct spot in the beam, its just a flood with some decent throw, only with no hole in the middle like you would expect from a Maglite. 

Overall its the perfect headlamp for my needs. I'm an extreme backpacker/mountaineer. It is nice and simple. With nearly all other lights there are some issues that annoy me, like the light not lighting up enough area(EOS), or not having enough throw(5mm LED headlamps). This is a good compromise. I don't see the artifacts in actual use. I also like the fact that the first lighting option is low as compared to high like most other headlamps. I don't like blasting my night adapted eyes with tons of lumens. On high I can light up the entire campsite and I can hike through tough terrain on low without ever questioning where I am going. Rather than bringing 2 headlamps for different purposes, the Argo HP does well at everything.


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## coors (Aug 26, 2007)

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and experience. I went ahead and ordered an Argo Hp, 4 Pilas, charger and some Seoul emitters and AA thermal epoxy. If I can get a great winter light for this price it will be money well spent! My other lightweight alternative is the Stenlight, but if I can get by without having to shell out over $300 for a headlamp, plus mods, then that would be just great.

coors


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## Windscale (Aug 26, 2007)

coors said:


> Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and experience. I went ahead and ordered an Argo Hp, 4 Pilas, charger and some Seoul emitters and AA thermal epoxy. If I can get a great winter light for this price it will be money well spent! My other lightweight alternative is the Stenlight, but if I can get by without having to shell out over $300 for a headlamp, plus mods, then that would be just great.
> 
> coors


 
It may be worth considering running the HP on 1x 17670. I posted a thread about this not long ago and the views I got is that it works this way. Using 1 Li-ion is always much safer than putting 2 in series. Also, my UF 17670 is 1800mah which may mean longer runtime. Since posting that thread I have been very busy doing other things so I have not tried this combo out myself. But I will do so soon.

I am still in the process of looking for a good headlamp. My old favourite was the Favourlight 3W. It is almost ideal, running on 2x123As with switchable power levels. But it does not work comfortably with RCRs, so the search is still on.


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## yellow (Aug 26, 2007)

a 17650 fits in without any modding, 
the circuit draws 80 (low) and 350 mAh from the batt, then

modding to 18650 greatly increases runtime,
modding with a Seoul *greatly* imporoves output (I use it with the original refli, sanded from the back as much as possible - floody & ringy beam, but does not concern me too much in use)


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## Windscale (Aug 26, 2007)

yellow said:


> a 17650 fits in without any modding,
> the circuit draws 80 (low) and 350 mAh from the batt, then
> 
> modding to 18650 greatly increases runtime,
> modding with a Seoul *greatly* imporoves output (I use it with the original refli, sanded from the back as much as possible - floody & ringy beam, but does not concern me too much in use)


 
Thanks. But may I ask you a further question? Will it run on 2x RCR123As (Protected) 3.0v or 3.6v? Do you know what is the regulated voltage range of the HP? I am not much of an electrical man so I don't quite understand if this is related to the circuit draw in terms of mah as you have stated.


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## mdocod (Aug 27, 2007)

Strat: I totally agree with you on the HP, it's just got great utility value, great size/weight, great regulation, great beam that's plenty bright. It has some of the flattest regulation of any headlamp out there. (I bet it uses the same driver as the Pro-Polys?? maybe?). 

-------------------------------------

Interesting question about it running on 2xRCR123s.. 

it *might* but there is no logical reason to do so, as a 17670 has about 50+% more energy than 2xRCR123s, not to mention, since the V-in on the regulator is very close to the V-out to the LED when running a single cell, the regulator is operating in a very efficient state. on 2xRCR123s it would not be operating nearly as efficient.... so in the end, a 17670 may actually provide near double the runtime as a pair of RCR123s in this light.... 

if you really wanted to do it, I would suggest emailing Streamlight with that question.... maybe they can give us some more detailed information about the driver...

-----------------------------------


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## coors (Aug 27, 2007)

Windscale said:


> It may be worth considering running the HP on 1x 17670. I posted a thread about this not long ago and the views I got is that it works this way. Using 1 Li-ion is always much safer than putting 2 in series. Also, my UF 17670 is 1800mah which may mean longer runtime. Since posting that thread I have been very busy doing other things so I have not tried this combo out myself. But I will do so soon.


I actually ordered 4x 17670 "protected" batteries... I thought that these were called "pilas". Please, do let us know your findings using the 17670s... runtime, output, etc.

coors


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## coors (Aug 27, 2007)

yellow said:


> a 17650 fits in without any modding,
> the circuit draws 80 (low) and 350 mAh from the batt, then
> 
> modding to 18650 greatly increases runtime,
> modding with a Seoul *greatly* imporoves output (I use it with the original refli, sanded from the back as much as possible - floody & ringy beam, but does not concern me too much in use)


The 2400mah 18650 batteries seem like a great upgrade, but I'm not confident enough yet to try this mod. I read the thread dedicated to the 18650 modification and noted that you used epoxy to refasten the contacts. What kind of epoxy did you use... 2-ton, 5-minute, or ??? Did you enlarge the battery well with a round file or an adjustable reamer or ??? And what kind of runtimes are you getting with the 18650s?... compared to 17670s or the standard cr123a cells?

coors


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## coors (Aug 27, 2007)

mdocod said:


> Interesting question about it running on 2xRCR123s..
> 
> it *might* but there is no logical reason to do so, as a 17670 has about 50+% more energy than 2xRCR123s, not to mention, since the V-in on the regulator is very close to the V-out to the LED when running a single cell, the regulator is operating in a very efficient state. on 2xRCR123s it would not be operating nearly as efficient.... so in the end, a 17670 may actually provide near double the runtime as a pair of RCR123s in this light....
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing this very useful information! I'm looking forward to seeing if the 17670s will provide nearly 10 hrs of regulated output from the Argo HP. That would be fantastic! If the 17670s do give out 10hrs of regulated light then would the 18650s give out 33% more runtime (a little over 13hrs?) Am I calculating this all right?

coors


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## Windscale (Aug 27, 2007)

I decided to email Streamlight and here is the reply I got from them:

"Streamlight can only recommend using the batteries the light was designed for. The Argo HP uses 2 3v lithium CR123. Use of any other un-recommended battery will void the lifetime warranty of the light.

Regards,
Rob"

Back to the drawing board!


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## cy (Aug 27, 2007)

This Argo HP headlamp mod is proving to be the one to get. with 17670 li-ion cell, runs in regulation for a long time. P4 upgrade turbo charges output without overheating. I'm still using S-bin luxeon, which puts out plenty of light. would not do the 18560 mod... walls are too thin. not worth losing reliability for increased runtime. I'm already getting 6+ hours on high. another few hours runtime will not make any functional difference for me. your mileage may veri...

got a Stenlight, but Argo HP is the one I grab. naturally for caving trips Stenlight is main light, but Argo HP still comes along for backup duties. 

just did a night hike at Turkey Mountain a few days ago. Argo HP really excelled at lighting up rocky path on the way out. very dangerous decent... one wrong step and it's bad news. 

here's the original Argo HP mod link I posted sept 06. loads of posts modding Argo HP since then. 
Argo HP was given to me by Streamlight after Shot show 2006. 

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=134811

here's the original mod pic, second showing different headlamps: ARC HID, HID Storm, Argo HP mod, Stenlight


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## mdocod (Aug 27, 2007)

> If the 17670s do give out 10hrs of regulated light then would the 18650s give out 33% more runtime (a little over 13hrs?) Am I calculating this all right?



I'm not sure where you came up with 10 hours, (I never said 10 hours)...

The Argo HP runs about 5 hours on 2xPRIMARY CR123s (3.0V). On 2xRCR123s I would expect about 3-4 hours (if the regulator SUPPORTS it, might NOT), on a 17670 6+ hours is quite possible.


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## coors (Aug 27, 2007)

mdocod said:


> so in the end, a 17670 may actually provide near double the runtime as a pair of RCR123s in this light...


Thanks for taking the time to answer. I misread your statement above... I thought that I read "double the runtime as a pair of cr123s", when in fact you wrote "rcr123s". That's where I went astray... I'm sorry about that! 6+ hrs on a single rechargable battery is still excellent stuff, in my opinion. For me, 4x 6hrs would give me 24 hours of nightime riding, camp setup, etc. before I'd have to get them recharged or find some regular cr123s.

coors


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## strat1080 (Aug 27, 2007)

mdocod, is your Argo HP modified at all, in regards to the LED? I'm thinking of going the rechargable route as well. I'm currently using primaries in it. How has the headlamp held up for you so far? I really think its very ergonomic and easy to use. With other headlamps I spend more time trying to get it pointed right at to the right brightness than doing what I set out to do. 

I'm thinking that modding the LED like others have will take away the usefullness of the light. It seems that the beam gets quite narrow and the brightness on low will probably be too bright for doing things around camp(inside a tent). I also don't want to compromise the reliability of the unit. :sick2:



mdocod said:


> Strat: I totally agree with you on the HP, it's just got great utility value, great size/weight, great regulation, great beam that's plenty bright. It has some of the flattest regulation of any headlamp out there. (I bet it uses the same driver as the Pro-Polys?? maybe?).
> 
> -------------------------------------
> 
> ...


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## mdocod (Aug 27, 2007)

I haven't modded it in any way, just started dropping in 17670s for around the house usage, I took it caving and ran it on some CR123s, but brought a spare set of CR123s, and 4 full charged 17670s, (and a ton of other lights)


I am also concerned about what will happen to the beam with a SSC mod. Once you get past the artifacts, it's hard to let go of the stock beam, which has amazing throw but a wide splotch at the same time.... I want to upgrade to an SSC because the output would be about triple. Being able to run in low, and get the same brightness as it is in high now will mean that you can get 20+ hours out of one 17670 just as bright.

I'm thinking I'll probably end up sputtering the reflector with some clear spray paint stuff. Or replacing the reflector with something else more heavily textured. 

If I could have the beam shape of my Nuwai ALX-253L (luxV, huge wide hotspot) or my LM301(SSC-heavy texture wide soft spot) on a headlamp, I'd be very happy.


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## strat1080 (Aug 28, 2007)

mdocod, do you know where I could get a different reflector for the Argo HP. Do you know if anything is an exact fit? I think a reflector that is textured all the way up would get rid of the artifacts and create a cleaner beam. Overall I like the stock beam, if it was just cleaner it would be perfect. It lights up a huge area, yet throws pretty well.


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## mdocod (Aug 29, 2007)

no clue, PM me if you find one, LOL. I want something more textured for when I drop an SSC in there.


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## Hondo (Aug 29, 2007)

I got two of these at the local fire/LEO shop, and I am very pleased with the output on each level, nice mix of throw/flood despite minor artifacts. Can't wait for my AW 17670's to come in, I am hoping the difference in brightness on Li-Ion is negligible.

But: How do you guys live with the whine? Both of mine have a high pitched whine on low that drives me crazy. One is just slightly less than the other, but both are real bad. I have really good hearing, but my HDS EDC and at least one digital Fenix whine and they don't bug me. I have to put them next to my ear to hear it. These are clearly screaming at arms length, and of course a killer when on my head, unless there is pretty loud ambient noise. I was so pleased that the low was usuable, unlike my River Rock 2xAAA which gets used almost exclusively on high.

Is there a component I could damp with some silicone cement to kill the noise? I am thinking it would be the inductor (wire coil, right?) or and oscillator (wouldn't know one walking down the street). Or is this an internal thing that could only be minimized by trial and error replacement of the lights.

I hesitate to call Streamlight, although I know they are great, because they will just have me send it back for a new one, and I got two great lottery winners with these. Any suggestions (other than "just run on high all the time") would be appreciated, I love these lamps otherwise.

Hondo


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## mdocod (Aug 29, 2007)

it's the PWM circuitry whining... on the 17670 the whining is less intense because the voltage differential is less.


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## Hondo (Aug 29, 2007)

mdocod said:


> it's the PWM circuitry whining... on the 17670 the whining is less intense because the voltage differential is less.


 
Thanks, mdocod, now I REALLY want to get my 17670's! Actually that was my first thought, but I remembered Doug at FR reported it as current regulation. Looking again, he says "appears to be ... current regulation" due to nice smooth output, and I can't see multiple images when I move the light real fast looking into the edge of the bezel. But what it must be is VERY high frequency PWM, which a lot of other lights are moving to. I know some of the irritating PWM's are down around 100 Hz, but if this is pulsing at the frequency of the whine, it must be in the 10 KHz range, as it sounds close to the upper end of what we can hear, 18 - 20 KHz if I remember. So no way could I see flickering with such a high PWM rate - which is good. Fortunately, I plan on running exclusively on the 17670's, is it a whole lot less intense than the 2x123's, or still loud enough to hear when mounted up front on your head?

Otherwise, I figure I could cure the problem with a couple of thousand rounds of 30-'06 without my hearing protection!  My dad could never hear stuff like this afer Army basic training in the 1950's "you get used to the noise!" 

Hondo


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## mdocod (Aug 30, 2007)

sounds like about 3-5k IMO


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## Hondo (Aug 30, 2007)

That could be, I am not very good at estimating such things, I just considered it "high pitched", and it seemed as if it might go off the end of human hearing if it were a whole lot higher. But then both lights seem to be at a bit different frequency. Good news is, even people more sensitive to PWM flicker than I am don't seem to detect it above around 200 to 300 Hz.

I sort of tried the Li-Ion setup by dropping in a RCR123 and jumping it to the negative. It is definitely quieter than on 6 volts, maybe not as much as I had hoped, like my barely detectable HDS, but enough that I won't hear it while on my head unless it is really library quiet. I can live with that. I do notice the brightness loss, but it is not a big deal, and I know it will hold pretty much dead level where it is throughout a battery. That is when I get my 17670's! Didn't expect them before today or tomorrow, really.

BTW, I also did the jump with my Amp meter while I was there, and got about 70 to 80 Ma low and about 360 Ma on high, for an RCR123, only slightly lower for 2xCR123, about 330 on high as I recall. Seems like run time will go up a lot on 17670 for the slight drop in output from these numbers.

Hondo


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## boef800 (Aug 30, 2007)

I use my Argo with a 17670 and I would say while the sound is there it seems to be a good bit lower than how it sounds from your description.So maybe with 17670 it'll be ok.I was thinking already about quieting it,too.
If it would be ok to put the whole board into thermal compound?
The last times I used it at night in the woods though it wasn't as bad as I would've thought from holding it in the hand at home.

Alex


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## strat1080 (Aug 30, 2007)

I can only notice the noise if I put it right against my ear. With it on my head, I don't notice it at all. The Argo HP is definitely not the perfectionist's headlamp at all. If you point the beam at a white wall you will be disappointed. If you try to hear the humming you will be disappointed. In actual use, the beam is perfect and the humming isn't noticable. The only thing I haven't tried using the Argo HP for is reading in a silent setting. The hum might be noticable then. To me though, the output is too high on low for reading anyway.


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## cy (Aug 30, 2007)

Argo HP is definitely not the best headlamp available... far from it, but it sure is handy! just the right size for most duties. mods extends runtime/output, li-ion operates for next to free. 

small wonder it's the headlamp I reach for anytime a dirty job comes up. come to think of it... Argo HP is so handy, it's my first choice to grab. 



strat1080 said:


> . The Argo HP is definitely not the perfectionist's headlamp at all. .


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## coors (Aug 30, 2007)

cy said:


> here's the original Argo HP mod link I posted sept 06. loads of posts modding Argo HP since then.
> Argo HP was given to me by Streamlight after Shot show 2006.
> 
> http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=134811


 
Thanks for posting the great Argo HP thread link, CY. It was a nice read... this from when you guys were figuring out all of this stuff about modding the headlamp. I'm kind of anxious for my Argo HP to show up soon... so that I can see what all of the positive comments are about.

Boef800,
If you see this... can you comment on how the McR-38 Joker worked out for you? Are you still using it?

coors


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## boef800 (Aug 31, 2007)

coors said:


> Thanks for posting the great Argo HP thread link, CY. It was a nice read... this from when you guys were figuring out all of this stuff about modding the headlamp. I'm kind of anxious for my Argo HP to show up soon... so that I can see what all of the positive comments are about.
> 
> Boef800,
> If you see this... can you comment on how the McR-38 Joker worked out for you? Are you still using it?
> ...



OK,still using it in this configuration and it has quite a nice throwing hotspot even on low which can be rather cool walking in the woods at night,illuminating the path a bit further ahead where you would be forced to use a handheld intermediate or to switch the headlight on high when using a headlight with less throw.
On the other hand latley I was thinking a few times if I should try the kathod stippeled reflector or something to diffuse the McRs' hotspot a bit,because the bright hotspot can really come in unhandy at times when doing closeup stuff.
If you would like to try the McR,somebody here wrote the 28(or so) would be a drop in,the 38 has to be cut down rather much to fit. 

Alex


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## cy (Aug 31, 2007)

coors... thanks for the comment. yep when I first posted the original Argo HP mod thread... had no earthly idea it would spin off so many different Argo HP mod threads  

when I first saw Argo HP at shot show and spoke with one of the owners of Streamlight. had a suspicion Argo HP would be a winner. Streamlight of course knew all about CPF, that's why she sent me the Argo HP freebie. 

have not done it yet, since my Sbin luxeon is working so fine! 

Argo HP reflector is shallow and designed for a side emitter. I'll probably will be replacing Sbin with a Cree XRE star. instead of P4. once you start dropping in reflectors/parts that cost same as headlamp. it starts to defeat original purpose of a good low cost headlamp. 

much easier to replace with P4, if you scrape off old side emitter. otherwise you'll need to take entire assembly apart to replace star. not difficult, just tedious. 

best part of this mod is 17670 upgrade, which requires no effort at all. be sure and mark the cap that comes off. both look identical. it's the pits trying to unscrew cap that's epoxy on :green: 

I'll alway unscrew cap 1/2 turn to prevent light from accidentally coming on.


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## Hondo (Aug 31, 2007)

Using the battery cap can be handy to turn it off without cycling through high as well .

Got my 17670's from AW today, and can properly try it out. Most excellent, not really that much loss of brightness at all. And the sound level on low is dropped to where I can barely hear it in dead silence. For most things, there will be to much ambient noise to ever notice it at all. At least for now, this is the only change I plan on making (man, that was tough).

Hondo


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## coors (Sep 1, 2007)

cy said:


> Argo HP reflector is shallow and designed for a side emitter. I'll probably will be replacing Sbin with a Cree XRE star. instead of P4. once you start dropping in reflectors/parts that cost same as headlamp. it starts to defeat original purpose of a good low cost headlamp.
> 
> much easier to replace with P4, if you scrape off old side emitter. otherwise you'll need to take entire assembly apart to replace star. not difficult, just tedious.
> 
> ...


 
CY, if you swap your R-bin to a Cree XRE star... please, let us know how that works out for you. Also, thank you for posting the great user tips.

coors


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## coors (Sep 1, 2007)

boef800 said:


> OK,still using it in this configuration and it has quite a nice throwing hotspot even on low which can be rather cool walking in the woods at night,illuminating the path a bit further ahead where you would be forced to use a handheld intermediate or to switch the headlight on high when using a headlight with less throw.
> On the other hand latley I was thinking a few times if I should try the kathod stippeled reflector or something to diffuse the McRs' hotspot a bit,because the bright hotspot can really come in unhandy at times when doing closeup stuff.
> If you would like to try the McR,somebody here wrote the 28(or so) would be a drop in,the 38 has to be cut down rather much to fit.
> 
> Alex


 
Alex,
Thank you for your detailed response to my questions. I went ahead and ordered an "McR 27 Seoul", since I'm planning to swap the 1watt emitter to a Seoul emitter. Things that I'm uncertain about now are: 1) should the new Seoul emitter be elevated to 0.03"-0.09" when using the McR 27 Seoul reflector? 2) since the stock reflector sits on the emitters positive and negative posts, should I add a non conductive plastic disc to sit over these posts before installing the aluminum reflector?

coors


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## boef800 (Sep 2, 2007)

coors said:


> Alex,
> Thank you for your detailed response to my questions. I went ahead and ordered an "McR 27 Seoul", since I'm planning to swap the 1watt emitter to a Seoul emitter. Things that I'm uncertain about now are: 1) should the new Seoul emitter be elevated to 0.03"-0.09" when using the McR 27 Seoul reflector? 2) since the stock reflector sits on the emitters positive and negative posts, should I add a non conductive plastic disc to sit over these posts before installing the aluminum reflector?
> 
> coors



If you're going to put the seoul onto the original star,the elevating would be the thing to try I would say.
But if you change out the complete star I wouldn't want to destroy the original bonding for the sake of putting a distance disc bettween it,and would just hone the reflectorbase to a focused fit.
The thing is that the emitter assembly is hold in place/screwed on a plate and the emitter is surrounded by an appr. 2mm high bump/ring(of this plate) on which my McR sits in its original form.You have to sand the edges of these outer step(s) of the reflector down by(for example,I did it so) laying it on its side onto a hone and turning it around.Till the reflector sinks near enough to the emitter for focusing but still avoiding it to make contact to the emitters posts,but a layer of nonconductive stuff a thin foil or so would be even better and make it simpler.Not a biggie,just a little honing will do it.When you have the reflector and the lamp opened in front of you you'll easily see what I mean.

Greetings,Alex

P.S.:
the cool thing using the McR reflector is you really have a super nice kick *** beam like on a McGizmo flashlight + it's a broad "headlight" beam with this broad reflectors.With a smaller reflector you would have a narrower "flashlight" beam.


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## coors (Sep 2, 2007)

Thanks again for your detailed reply, Alex. You are right... some things became apparent when I opened up my Argo HP, which arrived yesterday. It now has a new Seoul star in it... I tried to just add a Seoul emitter, but I destroyed it ($10) in the process. So I decided to go ahead and add a whole star assembly, instead. I spent 5-10 minutes on the stock reflector. And here is the result:

Seoul'ed Argo HP






For comparison here is a beamshot of my Seoul'ed PT EOS, which was shot during the same time I shot the Argo HP's beamshot: 

Seoul'ed EOS





I really like the sidespill of the Argo HP, now. Will have to wait 'til dark to see how it works out in the real world.

coors


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## boef800 (Sep 2, 2007)

Cool beamshots!
Don't you have a do-hole with the original reflector?
I predict you'll find the broader sidespill just right for walking in the dark,I'm curious how you'll like it and how the McR compares in brightness.

Alex


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## coors (Sep 2, 2007)

Alex,
Yes, I did have the huge dark donut in the center just like I've seen with others Seoul modified Argo Hps. So first thing I did was bend down the emitter positive and negative posts... flat against the emitters own sides. Then I found a twist drill bit and slightly enlarged the hole in the rear of the reflector... so that it could slide past the black/plastic shoulder around the emitters dome. When I saw that the solder holding the positive and negative wires to the star was too high and wide... I took a sharp wood chisel and cut about 50% of the inner and upper portions away. Then I ground off most of the bottom/rear portion of the reflector by rotating in circles on 60 grit sandpaper... turning the reflector 1/3 turn every 50 circles, to keep the surface flat. Then I took the reflector to my bench grinder and ground away about 3/32" of the corner portion where the reflector's bottom flat and sides meet. I then took the wood chisel and cleaned up the edge of the shoulder that falls away down into where the emitter and other bits reside. When I put the reflector back on, the donut was gone.
Here are some images of what the Seoul modified Argo HP is like, outside at night, compared to my Seoul modified PT EOS headlamp:

Seouled Argo HP





Seouled PT EOS





The throw of the Seoul'ed Argo HP is what really impresses me. The pictures may not show it clearly, but walking around shining both of these headlamps on trees that were up to 200 yards away showed me that the Seoul'ed Argo HP is probably casting 3 times or so the intensity, with the center spot, than the Seoul'ed EOS. The really good side spill of the Seoul'ed Argo HP also gives me what I'm wanting in the close up perimeter lighting. I'm VERY pleased with the modified Argo HP. The EOS has just become a backup light. I will have to sell my previous backup light , now... the Petzl E+Lite. When the McR 27 Seoul reflector shows up, I'll try to do a comparison with the stock reflector.

coors


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## boef800 (Sep 3, 2007)

Yes,he?it's really a thrower for a headlamp,isn't it?
I think mine throws as far or even a bit better on high then my seouled HDS U60.
Looking forward to how the McR27Seoul compares.
Is the EOS much lighter feeling on the head compared to the Argo,or are they more/less on par?From the lightoutput it looks almost the same.

Alex


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## yellow (Sep 3, 2007)

is the seoul MCR 27 other than the normal or the Cree one?
The Cree 27 mm gives the thightest spot of all the McRs I have
(but is a pain to place, I like the 19 mm best of all the Cree reflectors from the shoppe. Also gives the best beam)

PS: even the normal, wide Argo reflector gives quite a large illumination distance with a Seoul - sure no real hotspot, but quite better than _should_ be


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## Pumaman (Sep 3, 2007)

I put a mcr18 with a little off the back and much more off the front in my seoul'ed Argo HP. it now throws further and has better spill than my PT Eos with a seoul star and khodtod 17mm seoul reflector. very pleased with the result.
argo on left, eos on right


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## coors (Sep 4, 2007)

boef800 wrote:
"Is the EOS much lighter feeling on the head compared to the Argo,or are they more/less on par?"

My opinion is that they feel the same... no discernible difference. I can not feel either headlamp while wearing them.


yellow wrote:
"is the seoul MCR 27 other than the normal or the Cree one?"

I don't know, myself. I thought that the "Seoul" designation meant that it was all ready fit at the rear to accomplish perfect focus with the seoul emitters.


Pumaman wrote:
"I put a mcr18 with a little off the back and much more off the front in my seoul'ed Argo HP. it now throws further and has better spill than my PT Eos with a seoul star and khodtod 17mm seoul reflector. very pleased with the result."

Does the McR 18 give a tighter beam pattern than a wider reflector?.. like the McR 27?


I used the Seoul'ed Argo HP for a 2hr 15min bikepath ride, in total darkness, the other night. There was very dense fog for much of the ride... the same kind of fog that I'd have to slow to walking speed for while using the Seoul'ed PT EOS, so as not to hit anyone walking, running or any trees that might have fallen across the path (a common occurence on this trail) and also to see the stop signs for crossroads. The Seoul'ed Argo HP surprised me with how it's bright center beam just pushed through and let me see quite aways ahead. I previousl,y thought that a brighter light would just reflect more light back at me blinding me more... but it didn't.
I've a question about epoxying a star to the heatsink. When I epoxied the star to the heat sink (using Arctic Alumina), I wasn't trying to make the epoxy layer thin and when I pushed the star/heatsink assembly back into the housing I apparently did not wait long enough for the stuff to cure and the 2 pieces seperated. I put another layer over the existing layer and this time they stayed together for assembling. But now I figure that the epoxy layer is far too thick. Is this a bad thing, really? Will the thick epoxy layer prevent tranfer of heat from the star to the heatsink? Should I seperate these parts, scrape off the dried epoxy and put a new thin layer between?

coors


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## boef800 (Sep 4, 2007)

coors,
if you decide to seperate star and sink once again why not use just compound instead of epoxy cause the whole assembly is anyway screwed together and hence pushed together if I remember right.

Pumaman,
I think the different reflectors are all optimized for the different emitters.

P.S.:
the fog thing sounds cool)) I observed similar with mine,wasn't quite fog more misty/lightly foggy and it pierced a surprisingly good bit through for such a low driven light.
Thanks for the EOS opinion regarding the weight.

Alex


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## coors (Sep 4, 2007)

boef800 said:


> coors,
> if you decide to seperate star and sink once again why not use just compound instead of epoxy cause the whole assembly is anyway screwed together and hence pushed together if I remember right.


 

Thanks, Alex! Yes, you're right... the heatsink, star and the sliding black, plastic assembly are screwed tightly together. I have no idea what "compound" is, but I imagine that it's what was originally adhering the star and heatsink together... besides the 2 small screws. Where can I find this "compound" at? Is it known by any other name than compound?

coors


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## cy (Sep 4, 2007)

here ya go... http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.com/index.php?cPath=48_39

AA come in two part epoxy or grease. since star is mechanically held down you only AA grease.


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## boef800 (Sep 5, 2007)

Yes,that's what I meant by compound ,the nonadhesive stuff.
For the sake of diversity let me mention Fred aka PhotonFanatic as another topnotch seller who sells it here in the dealers section.

Alex


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## coors (Sep 5, 2007)

Thank you for the link, CY... and thanks for the verification, Alex. I noticed that both the AA grease and epoxy share identical particles (aluminum and boron). So, now I'm wondering if even though the grease is the proper product to use, to adhere (smooth out the 2 parts irregularities) the star to the heatsink... is it so far off to leave the epoxy there now that it's already there? I also looked at the back of the Lumileds star, that I removed from the argo HP, and noticed that it looks like it has a layer of epoxy on it also. Here is an image of the backs of 2 stars. The left one is the stock Argo HP and the right is the stock PT EOS (which has no heatsink... I think): 






coors


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## boef800 (Sep 5, 2007)

No problem in using the epoxy,I mentioned the grease just because it would make future emitter/star upgrades easier.I think from the performance point of view they should be equal.

Alex


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## cy (Sep 5, 2007)

general rule of thumb ... using thermal grease or epoxy? 

if a mechanical means of holding everything together is present, then use grease. otherwise epoxy. normally it's better to use epoxy with stars that are reverse grounded to insulate from ground. Argo HP uses a plastic body. so in this case matters not.


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## yellow (Sep 6, 2007)

stars are always neutral,
its the pure emitters that can be somehow electrically difficult.

Anyway: thermal grease + press in place, then epoxy glue around the emitter/Star to fix it.
If using Star, better use screws with threads into the heatsink


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## coors (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks for the help, Alex and CY and Yellow! I received the McR 27 Seoul today and it's definitely not going to work in the Argo HP. Here's an image... stock reflector on the left, McR 27 Seoul on the right:






Perhaps the regular McR 27 is the one I need. I'll ask Wayne Yamaguchi if that is possible.

coors


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## yellow (Sep 8, 2007)

they will all be too deep to fit 
(You can see most dimensions on Wayne's site)
anything in the 20 mm region will fit

as You use the Seoul, go for one of the IMS reflis - the outcome is not noticeably worse than the alum. ones, but these are much cheaper.

(if using a Cree, go for the Alum. reflis, they are great and well worth the money)


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## coors (Sep 9, 2007)

yellow said:


> they will all be too deep to fit
> (You can see most dimensions on Wayne's site)
> anything in the 20 mm region will fit
> 
> ...


 
Well, I sent the McR 27 Seoul back and they will be sending me a regular (short) McR 27. You may be right about it being too long, Yellow. It sure looks shorter in the pic though. The pdf, with the specs, doesn't work for the McR 27... so I'm hoping to hit paydirt this time, as I'm still banking that this is the reflector which Alex was referring to in an earlier post. If it doesn't work... at least I tried! I'd very much like to see someone do a Cree Q5 mod in one of these Argo Hps. Also, I wonder if one of these could be driven @ 500ma... given that it has a heatsink. If it could be driven @ 500ma... what would that kind of mod entail. Just swapping out the driver or something?

coors


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## cy (Sep 9, 2007)

you really don't want to be driving emitter harder than 350 milliamps in an environment with almost zero heatsinking. 

preference is to leave at stock drive levels. original heatsink is marginal at best.


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## coors (Sep 10, 2007)

cy said:


> you really don't want to be driving emitter harder than 350 milliamps in an environment with almost zero heatsinking.
> 
> preference is to leave at stock drive levels. original heatsink is marginal at best.


 
Thank you for letting me know this, CY. I hear you loud and clear... idea abandoned!
I just received 4x Ultrafire 17670 Lithium batteries and an Ultrafire 2-cell quick charger, from a Hong Kong seller... no instructions. When I put 2x batteries in the charger, and then plug it in, 2x green led lights come on. Can someone tell me if this means that the 2x batteries are charging? Do these green led lights go out when charging is finished?


coors


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## mdocod (Sep 10, 2007)

> from a Hong Kong seller... no instructions.



buying lithium chemistry cells, and a charger, from an unknown source that may or may not speak your language is a bad idea.

If it is the WF-139, then green means they are fully charged. lithium-ion cells don't ordinarily ship fully charged so that's kinda bizarre if you ask me. Are you inserting the cells in the right direction? can you post a link to the sellers page about the cells and charger?


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## coors (Sep 10, 2007)

Yes, it is the WF-139 charger. Something definitely seems wrong. I googled 'til I found out that the green leds mean fully charged. I tried all 4x batteries, in pairs, in the charger and the leds always remained green. With one of the "fully charged" 17670s in it, I left the lamp on high for 2 hours at which point it was putting out less light than my PT EOS on low. When I put this discharged battery in the charger along side another "fully charged" one, then the leds were red. I pulled both batteries out and am presently running the "fully charged" one down to the same discharge level... so that they are balanced for charging with each other. Heres a link to the sellers product: http://cgi.ebay.com/Ultrafire-Charg...ryZ50603QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem


coors


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## mdocod (Sep 10, 2007)

The WF-139 is a 2 channel charger, so the cells don't need to be balanced to use it. But the WF-139 does have 1 problem, it will overcharge cells if you leave em on "in the green." It keeps on trickle charging them, and this is bad.

You need to buy yourself a multi-meter so you can find out what's going on. Using loose li-ion cells and not owning a volt-meter is a bad combination. Cells should be tested when you buy em, before they are charged, and after they come off the charger.


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## cy (Sep 11, 2007)

coors, are your li-ion cells protected? now days protected cells are sooo common and cheap. there's no reason not to use protected cells. 

please consider reading link in my sig...

greatest danger using li-ion cells occurs during re-charging


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## coors (Sep 11, 2007)

mdocod said:


> The WF-139 is a 2 channel charger, so the cells don't need to be balanced to use it. But the WF-139 does have 1 problem, it will overcharge cells if you leave em on "in the green." It keeps on trickle charging them, and this is bad.
> 
> You need to buy yourself a multi-meter so you can find out what's going on. Using loose li-ion cells and not owning a volt-meter is a bad combination. Cells should be tested when you buy em, before they are charged, and after they come off the charger.


 

Thank you for running up the danger flag for me to see, Mdocod! And thank you, CY... for pointing out that 'must read' thread! I had no idea of the dangers involved with recharging lithiums. Ok, I'm ready to buy the necessary equipment to do this safely, however my short research leaves many questions. Like, if I were to get a Triton or Shultze charger how do I connect these chargers to my 17670 batteries? Do they make a battery holder for 17670s? If so, what connection bridges the charger to the battery holder? Cables, I assume... but I didn't see any cables with the Tritons or the Shultze chargers that are listed on eBay.
Also, what is a good multimeter to buy. I don't need "the best", just something that will be accurate enough for this task...
Yes, CY... the 17670 Ultrafire 1800mah batteries that I've bought are all protected... but what does that mean, exactly?


coors


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## cy (Sep 11, 2007)

protected for li-ion cells generally means overcharge protection and under discharge protection. positive-temperature-coefficient (PTC) should also be built-in. 

you really need to read link in detail. all this info is presented and more. problem with li-ion info. it gets deep quick. 

it's hard to present information in a short and sweet manner. 
sorry but no more typing for me  it's all there if one cares to dig.



coors said:


> Thank you for running up the danger flag for me to see, Mdocod! And thank you, CY... for pointing out that 'must read' thread! I had no idea of the dangers involved with recharging lithiums. Ok, I'm ready to buy the necessary equipment to do this safely, however my short research leaves many questions. Like, if I were to get a Triton or Shultze charger how do I connect these chargers to my 17670 batteries? Do they make a battery holder for 17670s? If so, what connection bridges the charger to the battery holder? Cables, I assume... but I didn't see any cables with the Tritons or the Shultze chargers that are listed on eBay.
> Also, what is a good multimeter to buy. I don't need "the best", just something that will be accurate enough for this task...
> Yes, CY... the 17670 Ultrafire 1800mah batteries that I've bought are all protected... but what does that mean, exactly?
> 
> ...


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## coors (Sep 11, 2007)

cy said:


> protected for li-ion cells generally means overcharge protection and under discharge protection. positive-temperature-coefficient (PTC) should also be built-in.
> 
> you really need to read link in detail. all this info is presented and more. problem with li-ion info. it gets deep quick.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the reply, CY. I did read about halfway down the page of your thread. Unfortunately, I didn't understand much of what I read. I suppose that I'm like a kindergartener... in the world of electronics. I can completely understand that you do not have the time to answer my uninformed/adolescent questions. Nevertheless, I'll press on trying to understand what you are saying in that thread. I will have to take small bites, though.
I purchased a multimeter to test the voltage of each of my 4x 17670 batteries. I numbered each battery so that I can keep track of their individual characteristics. Here's an image that shows how each battery tested for voltage... after charging on the low end Ultrafire WF-139 charger: 











coors


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## cy (Sep 11, 2007)

those are good ranges... important point is that they terminate under 4.2v. factoring in low end meter error, it's better slightly low than high. 

low end chinese li-ion chargers are notorious for not being accurate with end charges. I've lined up 6 identical chinese li-ion chargers and ended up with 6 different end voltage. 

in your case different termination points could be decided by protection circuits too. (a good thing)

you're doing great! just don't give up, ramping up is usually pretty quick. 

it was a real effort to keep li-ion re-charging danger article down to one long page :green:

craftsman generally making quality tools. to calibrate take your meter with a CR123 cell to a store (or a friend w/fluke) that sells flukes. measure cell with both meters. the fluke will be calibrated from factory. you will then know how far or close your meter is.


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## boef800 (Sep 12, 2007)

coors said:


> Thanks for the help, Alex and CY and Yellow! I received the McR 27 Seoul today and it's definitely not going to work in the Argo HP. Here's an image... stock reflector on the left, McR 27 Seoul on the right:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmm,sorry to hear that.
Have you looked for the thread where someone talks about a twenty-something (27/28/...??) McR reflector which was a drop in for his ArgoHP concerning diameter and lenght?

Alex


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## coors (Sep 12, 2007)

It's funny that you mentioned this, Alex... as I just received the McR 27 (short) from the Sandwich Shoppe. No, Alex... I had not looked at that thread before. I did trust that you knew what you were talking about though... when you made mention of it earlier, in this thread. Thank you, very much, for sharing that info with me.
















The McR 27 is about 2.5mm taller than the modified, stock reflector. It will definitely work!... that is, if I don't mess it up while fitting it in. If I get this reflector fitted, in the Argo HP, then I'll try to post some comparison shots later.

coors


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## coors (Sep 12, 2007)

cy said:


> those are good ranges... important point is that they terminate under 4.2v. factoring in low end meter error, it's better slightly low than high.
> 
> low end chinese li-ion chargers are notorious for not being accurate with end charges. I've lined up 6 identical chinese li-ion chargers and ended up with 6 different end voltage.
> 
> ...


 
CY, thank you very much for sharing this information with me. I'm hoping that what you are saying is that I'll be safe using the protected cells with this low-end charger. I just went to the 'Great Planes' site and looked over the Triton2 and Triton Jr chargers. The $80 price of the Jr appealed greatly, but when I realized that I'd have to fork out an additional $90 for the Hobbico 12v power supply... I'd just as soon not put that kind of money out for charging the batteries for this 'cheap' plastic headlamp. I mean... that much money on a charger/power supply would take me halfway to a Stenlight S7. So, if I'm safe with this charger and protected battery combination... then I'll call it 'good enough', for now.

coors


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## coors (Sep 12, 2007)

After 10 minutes of grinding the McR 27 reflector, on my bench grinder, I was able to get it to fit in the Argo HP. Since this reflector is aluminum I was quite concerned about shorting it out at both the emitter and star leads... so I put a piece of electrical tape over the bottom of the reflector, with an undersized hole for admitting the emitter. When I pushed the reflector over the emitter the extra tape from the undersized hole pushed up inside the reflector base and now acts as an insulator between the reflector and emitter side posts. I don't know if the electrical tape was a very good choice... I'm afraid that the adhesive and perhaps the tapes plastic itself may not endure the heat from the emitter. I do not know much about electrical products. If someone could steer me to a better insulating material, I'd really appreciate that!
Here are the images of the tape procedure, a beam shot comparison between the stock and McR 27 reflectors and then a night shot comparison between the 2x reflectors:

taped reflector... botom:





taped reflector... top:





beamshot w/ McR 27:





beamshot w/ stock reflector:





outdoor shot w/ McR 27:





outdoor shot w/ stock reflector:






coors


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## Derek Dean (Sep 13, 2007)

Wow, I've got to imagine that you are very happy with the results. The larger corona really gives a much more pleasing beam pattern both on the wall and more importantly out in the real world.


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## coors (Sep 13, 2007)

I also want to mention that I'm getting about exactly 3 hours and 35 minutes of regulated light, on the high setting, from the Seouled Argo HP while utilizing the 'protected' Ultrafire 17670 cells. All 4x of these 17670 cells behave alike. Charge times are very close for the 4x cells also... varying from 4 hrs 30 mins to 4 hrs 45 mins. I set a timer for 4 hrs 30 mins and either drop it in a pocket or keep it near when I'm recharging these cells on the Ultrafire charger.







coors


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