# Human Tests On Tactical Use Of Strobes - "Combat Simulation" Report



## Cataract (Jun 2, 2011)

Ok, here it is: I purchased some nerf guns recently (I also made some modifications to those, Thanks to Andystone316 for his post on the marketplace, but that’s a different story). I’m not an actual kid, just a fully grown-up flashaholic kid. The reason I got those was because I am fortunate enough to have a cousin who’s as flashaholic as I am and we like to go test our flashlights out in a park a few times during the summer. (More details on this in this thread: Ultimate Flashaholic Camping.) I just thought that it might be fun to add some weaponry to our night outings to get some actual tactical use out of our flashlights. Turns out it was a great idea. A few weekends ago, I went to see my cousin and, of course, brought the nerf guns along with some of my most powerful flashlights, knowing we’ll be doing some serious testing.

The Setup:

We did the testing in my cousin’s carpeted basement, in which there are a lot of old chairs and various objects, giving us extra obstacles. We took out the old foam chairs - the very same ones we played with 30 years ago! – and each built a small fortress. We were separated by about 10-12 feet and also had some extra obstacles behind us. Not having any rail mount or remote switch for our lights, we left them on top of our fort walls, aimed to blind the enemy with the strobes. 



The Situation: 

With lights dimmed, and soon enough completely out, we lied behind our fortresses and started shooting at each other. Obviously, we quickly realized that the strobe should be our best ally in this situation. Since I bought excessive amounts of ammunition and clips, we were in for a realistic siege. 


The Equipment:

Guns: One semi- auto and 2 manual guns each
Clips: one 35 rounds and 2 X 7 rounds clips each


Lights: 
My Cousin: Fenix TA21, TK15 and TK30 (it’s all he had in the basement with him, but next time I better bring my whole collection)
Me: Fenix TK15, TK40, TK45, ArmyTek Predator, Led Lenser M7R (yea, yea, I feel like I should dodge some more bullets right now)
Reminder: those lights where laid in strategic places, purposefully aimed at the corresponding opening and on strobe all the time.


The Fight:

We fought for a total of almost 1H30, with the strobes being on full-time for a little less than one hour. We had to crawl back every now and then to gather some ammo and found some ways to move our main cover a little, ending at less than five feet from each other. We did take one major break to gather all the spent ammo and refill our clips. It was very hard to see each other and aim and we had to find ways to hide the enemy’s strobe with our hands, weapons or through uncovered openings. Lots of fun, let me tell you.


And now for my catchphrase:

If someone had told me 20 years ago that I would one day play with 130$ worth of nerf guns and ammo, the same old foam chairs and about 500$ worth of flashlights in my cousin’s basement, and still as much fun as when I was 5, I probably would have called him a bunch of indecent names, kicked him in the crotch and spit on him. Good thing no one ever told me this, cause I would have been the fool...


Combat Related Conclusions:

-We are definitely out of shape 

-We are no professionals, but we concluded that a fight might start with a lot of fire exchange, but will quickly slow down to more calculated shots as ammo is being spent (unless you’re already a professional of course). In the end, the hand weapon, if not hand to hand combat, seems to win the fight. I also base this last statement on lessons learned from taking medieval sword fighting courses for over two years, where the saying “it always ends with wrestling” was the main conclusion and too often proved by myself and many others.

-Automatic weapons are only superior in short calculated bursts, especially on open terrain. (this is open to debate, of course)


Flashlight Related Conclusions:

-Our eyes hurt for 2 days (don’t hold up, we’re laughing too!)

-I don’t see any type of damage resulting from this and we were at VERY close range!

-Strobe is not such a nuisance that you cannot fight back or get sick... unless you ARE epileptic.
-Strobes are much more annoying than a constant light.

-You can get used to having a constant strobe aimed at you rather quickly (a few minutes). You will not see better after getting used to it, but it will not deter an attacker who has his mind set on his goal.

-Our brains and eyesight can also adjust to switching from having a constant strobe or powerful in the face to lying back in the dark and still see enough in a few minutes. I need to mention that what I call “dark” here has a limited meaning, since there was a lot of light bouncing back from the walls, but it seemed dark enough at first that I needed a few seconds to re-adjust when reloading my magazines.

-Turning a constant bright light on in front of the strobes helped me a lot while trying to spot the enemy, but seemed to be much less distracting for the enemy.


Lessons learned:

-Nerf guns are fun for any age (for close range combat, of course... I still got some airsoft guns for the long range shots when we go outside)

-We found out the hard way why military training is so intensive.

-I now remember what is called “rug burns”

-Fighting hard makes you hungry enough to order a large pizza at 1 a.m. even after overeating the whole day and not drinking a single beer.



OK, Now the answers to the obvious questions:

Which one was the most annoying?
The TK45 seems to have been the big winner. This conclusion is based on short-range combat, but I’ll definitely give it a try on longer ranges this summer.

The TA21, TK30 and TK40 seemed to be equally annoying at close range.

The Predator was probably the second most annoying one, but having it on constantly means that the overheat protection came in rather soon, so I just turned it off and reserved it for short bursts – which I tried only a few times due to the fact that it wasn’t attached to any of my weapons. The constant momentary on did seem to hide my head very well, while giving me a chance to see my cousin’s face real nicely, though.

The concentrated beam of the M7R meant that it had to be aimed carefully and was not very useful. The flood setting on it didn’t seem to do much in keeping my cousin from seeing me or in helping me seeing better. It is a very nice flashlight for other applications, though (dodging incoming) and does deserve much more attention. More to come in a separate thread when I have a chance.

Did any of your lights heat up?
Apart from the Predator, no. All the other lights kept working for at the very least 45 minutes in a row and did not feel more than just warm when we picked them up. Obviously, I had a battery charging day right after that.


All In All

Our current research is limited in a few ways:
- We had more than one strobing light on at all times. This means that the strobing effect is somewhat diminished, as lights are not in sync.
- The strobes where constantly on: Our vision was not fully in “night mode” at any time.
- Our strobing lights where in fixed and in known positions. This gave us a chance not to look directly into them every time. It also gave a chance to our eyes and brains to adapt to a point where we could see our surroundings almost normally (the fact that we had multiple unsynchronized strobes helped.)


While a strobe does nothing to completely stop an aggressor, it certainly gives you the advantage of hiding whichever part of you that is close to the business end (and can hide any weapon you’re holding). It will not keep someone from seeing you if they have a bright light of their own or if there is sufficient ambient light. 


Personal and final conclusion:

A strobe in the face is annoying a hell and certainly counts as a serious advantage, but is definitely not the be-all end-all of tactical advantages.

I used to have the mind-set that aggressive animals might stop in their tracks because they can’t see you anymore, but now realize that this does nothing to stop other senses from working properly, especially peripheral vision. A strong light or strobe is extremely annoying, but it only does little to deter and attacker. While I might think twice about how I would approach a real-life situation when having my face blinded by strong lights and strobes, it doesn’t mean that I would stop right there – and I’m definitely not an aggressor type of person.

 Some animals still could stop in their tracks when some 600 lumens+ strobe is aimed at them, just because they don’t have a clue about what’s going on, but in dire moments (like being real hungry) they might not give a crap so you should have some other surprise at hand, just in case. I realize that I am carrying human reaction to animal reaction, but I also understand that most animals see much better in the dark than we do and those lions on the Discovery channel don’t seem to care at all about the 100 million candle power aimed at their faces, even at less than 20 feet. 

If I was looking for a gun-mounted light for use in the military or swat, I would most definitely choose something with momentary strobe activation for tactical reasons. But, if I needed a good law-enforcement light for normal police or security guard duties, the strobe would definitely become no more than a good but secondary option. Yes, it hurts the eyes and it is extremely annoying to have strong strobes pointed at you, but we are still very adaptive beings that can cope with a variety of situations and I wouldn’t count on a strobe as being a total security shield. Besides, if you don’t train to shoot at someone who’s moving in square steps like you’re on acid, it might not help you at all.

This test is not over and will continue on my summer trip to the “two towers”. Stay tuned for the “Ultimate Flashaholic Camping Trip: Year 3” thread or some separate thread that will be mentioned in there for sure.


P.S.: anylau recently reported stopping two dogs from attacking him and his sister after finding out that a strong light didn’t do anything (Thread here). I then conclude that the surprise effect of the strobe certainly is much more of an advantage than the constant use of it. I’ll find out more on my next camping trip.


----------



## russthetoolman (Jun 2, 2011)

awesome use of words to describe your adventure, however, I want to see the movie now!!!!
Russ


----------



## blah9 (Jun 2, 2011)

Haha, I can't believe you guys subjected yourselves to all that light at close range! Thanks for the informative post! It's very interesting, and it sounds like it was a lot of fun.


----------



## Xacto (Jun 3, 2011)

How I envy you to have so much fun with a gun(s). I have to wait at least 4-5 more years till my son can be "trained" to be a sparing partner. It would have been interesting how it would have been if you had used only one light at a time and only momentarily with short light/strobe bursts.

Cheers 
Thorsten


----------



## beerwax (Jun 3, 2011)

some kids have all the fun. 

what to call this new sport. nerf nerd shootout ? nah i got nothing. strobe shooting ? nah.

i find the faster the strobe the less effect it has on me. most of mine are quite fast. 

is the video on youtube ? cheers


----------



## CheepSteal (Jun 3, 2011)

Totally awesome, I wanna play!


----------



## DM51 (Jun 3, 2011)

Excellent!


----------



## Cataract (Jun 3, 2011)

Oh yes, it was really fun and I'm really looking forward to try this outdoors at night. One of us will have to invade a tower while the other is defending it!!! 
This time we will definitely use momentary strobes and different strobe speeds (thanks to our Predators). 

As for the film, well, we'll keep practicing until we at least look we had a little tactical training so we don't just look like grown kids with receding hairlines...


----------



## russthetoolman (Jun 3, 2011)

"As for the film, well, we'll keep practicing until we at least look we had a little tactical training so we don't just look like grown kids with receding hairlines"

Nah, don't judge yourself, just do it and have fun!!!!!
We stood in front of a tank light, for a photo, at our get together last weekend, talk about feeling silly  
I was thinking, "and they shoot a projectile, isn't that overkill?" Dang, that is the definition of BRIGHT!!!


----------



## Echo63 (Jun 4, 2011)

That is a cool way to test your lights.
A friend and i went 1 on 1 in the dark with light equipped nerf guns one night.
its amazing what you can do with gaffa tape (and how surprised people look when they didnt realise you taped a 1000 lumen light to your nerf gun, and are instantly spotted in their diffcult to leave hideyhole)

Im interested in which Nerf Guns you were using though, i am getting quite a collection, my favorite at the moment being the CS35 Raider


----------



## Solscud007 (Jun 4, 2011)

Very cool. Sounds like a lot of fun. 

I agree whole heartedly with your findings. I have had a lot of strobe use with airsoft. However I used a Blackhawk gladius. While BH claims that their strobe frequency causes more disruptions than other strobe requencies, I can only attest so my first hand experience. 

I only used strobe sparingly. I try to stay hidden and only blast the strobe into people's eyes. It is annoying as a recipient. I found that a short burst of strobe can be useful and create just a moment that I could use to my advantage. Since airsoft games are one hit kill type games (unless otherwise specified with more complex rules) I only need that small moments pause to shoot the person and take him out of the game.

My strobe and light experiences are a little askew because I was the only person with high end lights. No one thought lights were necessary until I came along. Of course people would tape a mini mag to their gun when I forced everyone to go lights out. But they dont use the lights tactically. They only use the lights to get around, and not as a force multiplier.


----------



## Cataract (Jun 6, 2011)

Echo63 said:


> That is a cool way to test your lights.
> A friend and i went 1 on 1 in the dark with light equipped nerf guns one night.
> its amazing what you can do with gaffa tape (and how surprised people look when they didnt realise you taped a 1000 lumen light to your nerf gun, and are instantly spotted in their diffcult to leave hideyhole)
> 
> Im interested in which Nerf Guns you were using though, i am getting quite a collection, my favorite at the moment being the CS35 Raider


 
LOL, 1000 lumens against unenlightened is sure to open their eyes up.. or weld them shut!

We used CS35 raiders as well. Doesn't throw far, but excellent for close encounters. WE also had a pair of Night Finders as well. 

I now got 2 Mega-missiles that are absolutely awesome to mod. You don't have to remove a single screw: just drill the AR, insert a brass pipe and glue or tape it in place. Then cut the missile shaft so the pipe makes it through and you can fire both the missile and regular darts (don't install the missile shaft before this or might not be able to get it off!). Even though the pipe is bigger than my darts, one of them made a clear round hole in the mosquito net over 30 feet away (metal-mesh net !!) I'll sure impose a rule of no more than 4-6 pumps with darts for close range combat with those.

I didn't tell my cousin about the mega-missiles. I'll get him to defend the tower first and then I'll surprise attack from behind (provided my compas skills get me there) with both mega missiles and 2 howlers (and 3X 250 lumens on my head plus a big HID on the ground). He won't know what hit him!



Solscud007 said:


> ... BH claims that their strobe frequency causes more disruptions than other strobe requencies, I can only attest so my first hand experience.


 
Do you know what frequency is their strobe?


----------



## Solscud007 (Jun 7, 2011)

Cataract said:


> Do you know what frequency is their strobe?



You have entered into a gateway drug that is modifying nerf guns. Good luck with that haha. 

I dont know the frequency but here are more testaments to the strobes effectiveness.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...the-most-nauseating-strobe-ona-LED-flashlight

Here is a video i shot a while back using the gladius in airsoft. the frequency has been very effective. After talking to victims of the strobe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaT4IbPE6go


----------



## Cataract (Jun 7, 2011)

Fortunately, I don't have anyone else than my cousin to play with, so my Nerf modding carreer is pretty much over already.

Pretty convincing video BTW. Can't wait to try it out myself...


----------



## DM51 (Jun 7, 2011)

Cataract said:


> Fortunately, I don't have anyone else than my cousin to play with, so my Nerf modding carreer is pretty much over already


Have you seen this thread in the MP?


----------



## Cataract (Jun 7, 2011)

DM51 said:


> Have you seen this thread in the MP?



That's the thread that got me started, just about when CPF was recovered from the crash. Never even thought of linking both together, thanks.


----------



## TyJo (Jun 7, 2011)

Haha. I have to resist doing this. I allready catch enough crap for all the flashlights. Definitely an awesome, funny OP (we are definitely out of shape).


----------



## Darvis (Jun 7, 2011)

Lord, why did I read this? Now I've got to sneak the damn Nerf gun past my wife and figure out how to mod it while she's out running errands.


----------



## Cataract (Jun 8, 2011)

Darvis said:


> Lord, why did I read this? Now I've got to sneak the damn Nerf gun past my wife and figure out how to mod it while she's out running errands.


----------



## KVoimakas (Jun 10, 2011)

This was an awesome read. I had a buddy of mine shine my Turbo AA^2 into my eyes from about 10 yards away, just to see what you were talking about. I put my hands up in front of my and couldn't even see them! 

Thanks for this.


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 16, 2011)

Echo63 said:


> I'm interested in which Nerf Guns you were using though, i am getting quite a collection, my favorite at the moment being the CS35 Raider



Those raiders look nice but I prefer the range of the Long Strike/Recon, our son just picked up the Nite Finder after messing around with a Maverick for a while, seems (as already mentioned) there's some people out there seriously modifying their Nerfs 


I just figured this had to belong to a CPF'er (just look at the SF add-on) :thumbsup:






BTW thanks for sharing your story OP


----------



## Cataract (Jun 16, 2011)

The raiders are only good for short range combat, but they're very good at that with the firing rate. Someday I'll have to get a long strike or recon, but I'll start with my current arsenal which is already all I can carry at once.


----------



## Andystone316 (Jun 16, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> I just figured this had to belong to a CPF'er (just look at the SF add-on) :thumbsup:


 
This thing deserves a medal of some sort!! Awesome work. 

Also,I didn't realize what I was going to be starting when I posted this http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?246992-Anybody-here-into-modding-Nerf-guns

And yes, Mav's are the gateway drug... I have modded both of mine and those were just the beginning... 
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?246992-Anybody-here-into-modding-Nerf-guns


----------



## Solscud007 (Jun 16, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Those raiders look nice but I prefer the range of the Long Strike/Recon, our son just picked up the Nite Finder after messing around with a Maverick for a while, seems (as already mentioned) there's some people out there seriously modifying their Nerfs
> 
> 
> I just figured this had to belong to a CPF'er (just look at the SF add-on) :thumbsup:
> ...


 

IIRC that maverick belongs to Mil-spec Monkey. (not CPF)


----------



## ebow86 (Jun 16, 2011)

The biggest problem with strobe mode is being able to access it quickly and effectively. Most of the chinese lights make you cycle through 10 different settings before finally reaching it, making it all but useless.


----------



## Solscud007 (Jun 16, 2011)

ebow86 said:


> The biggest problem with strobe mode is being able to access it quickly and effectively. Most of the chinese lights make you cycle through 10 different settings before finally reaching it, making it all but useless.


 

Hence why I found the BH Gladius to be the best UI for accessing strobe. But I have not tested that many lights with strobe. I feel your pain about the cycling garbage. The Quark series has an easy strobe access. Simply push the light on and of and on again and it strobes in high mode. However. If you want to momentary shut off the light, you will get strobe sometimes. So still a little annoying.


----------



## Cataract (Jun 17, 2011)

ebow86 said:


> The biggest problem with strobe mode is being able to access it quickly and effectively. Most of the chinese lights make you cycle through 10 different settings before finally reaching it, making it all but useless.



Most of these where designed with some form or occasional use like self-defense or signaling in mind. Fenix and Quarks have a 2 step access. Some lights (including the tactical Quarks, Predator, Nitecore IFE) where made to have immediate access AND momentary strobe action. We'll definitely be using those when we hit the actual field (probably in 2 weeks or so).


Solscud, Andystone: Which is the pinnacle of modified nerf guns? I don't mean just distance and going through objects, but the one with the best overall features?


----------



## Solscud007 (Jun 17, 2011)

That is like saying which modified mustang is the pinnacle? Cobra? Shelby? Which modified light is the pinnacle? Milkyspit? Overready? 

It really is the user that makes the difference. However there are some guns that are so overwhelmingly unfair that they are banned. 

Doomslayer is one that comes to mind. It is a Rapid Fire Shot gun by Ertl. Modified it reaches 100ft.

the Nerf Crossbow is like the AR15 in Nerf world. it can reach 100ft easily and has LOTS of mods for it. But it is old and rare.

The Octo-shot is pretty good from what I hear. Here is a video that was posted in the marketplace.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO36G4W2Occ

The raider is great with a spring upgrade and restrictions removed. It is an all purpose nerf weapon. I have managed to hold my own out doors against 100+ft guns. The benefit is the large ammo capacity. 35 darts is over whelming against someone who has rate of fire equal to the civil war. 

However newer guns like the plusbow (DIY open source project cross bow) Has evolved into a pump shotgun with the "hopper" clip (nerfers say clips. Firearms people say magazines) with the hopper clip you can shoot as many darts as you can pump them out and reach over 100 ft. so those types of guns are drastically changing the game.

Here is a fun project that i made.

The Longshot (LS) is a pretty good platform. modded properly it can reach respectable ranges. Of course dart choice is key. The stefans help revolutionize Nerf guns. They are more stable in flight and reach farther distances.

Here is my shotgun LS. The LS stock has a charging handle on the side. i have modded it with only stock parts to make a shotgun pump version


----------



## Cataract (Jun 17, 2011)

Thanks for the info. I don't know how deep I want to plunge into nerf modding, but at least I have a much better idea of what I might go for next.

BTW, the new Mega Missile in incredibly easy to mod and a real delight once modded. I didn't have any measurements, but I know I was at least very close to 100 feet (angled shot). I'll have to find some material for custom darts that actually fit my tubing properly. The missile itself can reach close to 50 feet with this mod and that's the beauty of it; you keep the original functionality as well.

I did have to exchange both of them, however, one had too much friction and the missile didn't go anywhere, and the other one had a broken missile (glue didn't catch I guess)

Now I need to get some railing so I can get some use out of my TK15 remote switch...


----------



## Xacto (Jun 17, 2011)

Cataract said:


> [...]
> Now I need to get some railing so I can get some use out of my TK15 remote switch...



I never knew that Nerf guns have such a huge following amongst adults.... or at least guys that are of legal-age (like myself) ;-)
Regarding rails - I got some nice metal ones from the Classic Army airsoft range, in my case they are designed for the G36k, but can of course be attached via screws to any plastic gun.

Very informative thread, please keep it running like that, I am eager to learn more.

Thanks.
Cheers
Thorsten


----------



## Bigmac_79 (Jun 17, 2011)

A big thanks to the OP, that story really brightened my day! 

My friend and I did a similar thing a few years back while he was living in the dorms at a Junior college. Over a break, the dorms were empty, and we taped our flashlights to nerf guns and did similar "experiments" with the strobe modes using an obstacle course we made in the dorm hallways.


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 18, 2011)

Solscud007 said:


> IIRC that maverick belongs to Mil-spec Monkey. (not CPF)




Well they ought to be a CPF'er with such a good taste in flashlights! :thumbsup:



Recon's are only $30.00 (AUD) locally with the Longshot coming in at around $10.00 more, I was leaning towards the Recon but I really like what you've achieved with the Longshot chassis... now I'm back to considering both! 


The only Hasbro foam dart gun I've owned previously was the Star Wars Wookie Bowcaster, a single shot (basic) weapon, the Mav' really outclasses it... but it's kinda cool if you're also a S/W fan


----------



## Solscud007 (Jun 18, 2011)

Recon is a fun weapon like the maverick. But not practical in a real Nerf War (Nerf War is the term US players call Nerf Games at least on the Nerf Internet Community). Range is awful when compared to most weapons shoot past 50 feet. Also when Im talking about dart ranges these are flat trajectories. that is the standard that all other guns are tested against. So 100 feet arched is not a lot to get excited about when shot flat.


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 18, 2011)

"Nerf War" - Oh that's kinda' catchy isn't it? I guess I'll opt for the Longshot after all no point in opting for insufficient firepower! (and I hear it's one of the easiest to modify) :devil:


----------



## mcmc (Nov 9, 2011)

We call our melees "Nerf Gun Wars" =) I guess, "NGW"s?


----------



## Cataract (Nov 9, 2011)

WMFD's: Weapons of Mass Foam Darts. 

Don't forget to tape a light with a remote switch to your nerf guns... and get your friends out for a night game, but don't mention anything about flashlights to see if they even bring any. OMG the carnage!


----------

