# G&P Scorpion R500 vs Ultrafire WF-500



## Raptor# (Mar 4, 2007)

Heya fellow flashaholics,

A while ago i was torn between buying the G&P R500 and the Ultrafire WF-500. 
Maybe a few of you guys had - or still have the same problem, so i thought i'll let you know my thoughts about the subject.

First off: i ended up buying the WF-500.
I got it about a month ago from qualitychinagoods and use it together with the protected 18650's from AW and a WF-139 charger.

The beam is more on the floody side. Somewhat egg-shaped, but nothing you'd notice outdoors. 

I'll just spill the beans already, i believe you're way better off with the WF-500 than with the R500.

Why? 
1.) Battery reliability. You can use good, reliable batterys for the WF-500, AW's protected 18650's. 
I have zero doubt that AW would take them back if there would be a problem with his cells. Have a problem with the G&P R500s battery pack (reading the R500 thread, it looks like alot of people had a problem with them!), and its bend over. You're on your own now.

2.) Battery flexibility. You might need more than 1 full battery charge sometimes. So what you'll do? Buy extra batterys. Now, when you'll buy a akku pack for the R500, you buy batterys that you can't use in any other flashlight (remember, someday you might want to replace your flashlight with a new one - being able to use the old batterys would be nice, wouldn't it? 

But unless you dismantle the battery pack for the R500 (wich i would *NEVER* attempt to do. And honestly, if you're reading this thread because you're unsure wich of those 2 flashlights to buy, you're probably not somebody who should attempt to try it either. There are a few people who might be able to safely do this, Hotwire gurus, experienced modders and folks like Newbie. If you are not sure if you can do it or not, then you probably really really shouldn't. Personally i'd rather do something that feels a little bit safer to me, like playing russian roulette. In other words: Don't do this!!!), you can't use the pack of the R500 in any flashlight that i'm aware of.

Not so with the WF-500. 

It uses seperate batterys, that you can use in any flashlight, as long as they'll fit. 
Even if you dismantle the battery pack of the R500, and manage to seperate them, i'm not sure if you can charge them with a regular charger.

3.) The charger. You'll pay about the same price for both when you include the charger and batterys in the total price. But the G&P's charger can only charge the G&P R500. Buying the WF-500 and a DSD charger you can charge all of your 18650's and 3.7V CRC123's too. Buying the just a little bit more expensive WF-138 or 139 and using the (included for no extra charge from AW) battery spacers, you can charge even more of the other Li-Ion's.
In other words: You're way more flexible with the chargers you'd normally buy for the WF-500's 18650.

4.) Bulb replacements costs. From what i gather, theres one problem that both flashlights share. The bulb is way overdriven. Sometimes this leads to a insta-flash, meaning the bulb blows or burns out the moment you turn the flashlight on. So far, so bad. But: The replacement bulbs for the WF-500 cost $10, while the replacement bulbs for the R500 cost is $24.

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*Lets see how much they cost exactly*.

G&P Scorpion R500: $84 at kaidomain and dealextreme, 80 at ebay from airshotshooting (link ), including shipping. Charger and batterys included.
Replacement bulb: $23 including shipping at ebay, (link $25 at lighthound.

Ultrafire WF-500: $32.38 at kaidomain and dealextreme, including shipping. (44.38 at Qualitychinagoods, but hey its the same flashlight so lets go with the cheapest offer.)

Charger: 
DSD Charger: $6.61 at dealextreme, $7.23 at kaidomain, $9.36 at qualitychinagoods, $12 at lighthound.
WF-139: $12.31 at dealextreme, $12.82 at kaidomain, $15 from AW (including 2 mini-magnetic spacers of about 1mm, 2 bigger aluminum spacers, european adapter for free, just ask him. Don't know if the other dealers offer the same.), $16.03 from qualitychinagoods.

Batterys: 
AW's Protected 18650's. $12 directly from AW. $13 From lighthound, if you wanna pick up some extras while you're already at it and wanna save on shipping.
Other protected 18650's. $ ???. Ultrafire's protected 18650 should fit, but there have been many reports of battery failures with the Ultrafires. So even thought theyre cheaper, i wouldn't recommend them. A few other protected 18650's didn't fit the WF-500, but im not sure wich one. Would be nice if somebody dropped me a PM with his experiences.

Please notice that i did NOT include shipping costs for lighthound and AW. Buying the WF-500 and 2 protected 18650's from AW costs you $4,50 shipping.

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*Complete costs:*

G&P Scorpion from ebay (cheapest source): $80 including shipping, $19 bulb assembly ($5 Shipping, but buying both from the same supplier you should be able to save those extra costs for shipping). 

This means $80 for the G&P R500 alone, and $99 - $104, depending on if you can save $5 on shipping or not.


Ultrafire WF-500. Hah, now thats the part where it gets a bit more complicated (Hey hey, stay here! i'm almost done! And please stop screaming, i've really gotta concentrate here. :lolsign: )
WF-500: $32.38 (from kaido/DX. Wouldn't buy from QCG, price difference is just too big.)
Batterys: 2x AW's protected 18650's: $24 from AW (+ $3.50 shipping) , $26 from lighthound. Lets keep it simple, and assume that those are the batterys that make the most sense for the WF-500.
So thats $59.88 for the WF-500 and AW's Protected 18650's.
Charger:
DSD: $6,61 at DX. 
WF-500 + AW's Protected 18650's + DSD charger = $66.49 and we've got it all together.
WF-139: $12.31 at DX, $15 from AW (+ $1 shipping when you also buy 2 protected 18650's).
WF-500 + AW's Protected 18650's + WF-139 charger = $72.19 (DX) - $75.88 (AW) and again we've got it all together, with just a little bit more flexibility than with the DSD charger.
Replacement bulb: $10 from Qualitychinagoods.

This means $76,49 including extra bulb (DSD charger). 
Or $82.19 - $85.88 including extra bulb (WF-139 charger from DX or AW).

Vs the already mentioned $99 - $104 for the G&P R500 with extra bulb.

=================================

*To end my essay: * 
The only thing that could be seen as a advantage of the G&P R500 versus the WF-500 could be the slightly more spotty beam.
Somebody might mention the plug-in charger as a advantage, i don't think it is one. Why? Because you still have to "screw arround".. errrm, i mean, screw the flashlight open. IMHO this isn't really comparable to simple plug-in chargers, such as the Magcharger system, or the one Surefire has.
Theres not so much of a reason to keep a Li-Ion using flashlight in a charger allday anyway. The self-discharge isn't even anywhere near as fast as with the Ni-Cads used by the surefire rechargeables and the Magcharger.


The drawbacks of the R500 are higher inital cost, higher replacement cost, less realibility, unflexible charger and unflexible battery pack.

I don't mean to smack the R500, but in my eyes the WF-500 clearly is the better buy, and lets just say i thought a really long while about it.  

Thanks for your time (and even more thanks for your opinion in case you'd let me know it), i hope this has helped some folks who have to make the same decision as i did.


Best regards,

Johannes


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## Russianesq (Mar 4, 2007)

WOW, appreciate your insights.

Three questions. 
1. Are the lights equally as bright
2. What about run times
3. How long can the lights be on before they get too hot


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## Raptor# (Mar 4, 2007)

Russianesq,

1. -> From what i gather, yes. Various people compared those lights to the Surefire M6 Guardian and most people sayd they are anywhere from 20% less bright than to "about as bright" as the M6, so i think there shouldn't be a huge difference. Both will have something arround 400 lumens, IMHO.
Theyr respective technical details also support this theory since both lights use a 7.2 Volt Xenon Bulb and get a total of 7.4V from theyr Li-Ion batterys. 

2. -> Quickbeam tested the G&P R500 to have a runtime of 46 minutes untill 50%, and you can expect the WF-500 to have the same - actually i also saw a advertisement for the WF-500, saying that it has almost exactly the same runtime, 40 minutes. 
/Edit: In other words: Same. 
But if there'll ever be protected 18650's with 2400 maH that fit the WF-500, it will of course have a longer runtime than the R500 with its 2200 maH. ( Flexibility. With that comes the ability to upgrade.)

3. -> Depends. 
Being incans, they emit most of theyr warmth out of the front... so if you place them bezel-down on paper, i'd say expect flames after 3-5 minutes or less.
Theyr heatsinks being pretty similar looking, i wouldn't expect a huge difference between the 2 flashlights. Of course, to be sure somebody would have to test this with both flashlights. I remember seeing a description of the G&P R500 that it can't be used for more than 5 minutes at a time, but many CPF'ers have used theyrs for longer than that. Quickbeam (the owner and sole tester of flashlightreviews.com) must also have had his one for the whole runtime test, about 47 minutes - in other words, untill the battery was empty.
After 5 minutes i'd be carefull not to touch the head, it gets HOT! Other than that, no problemo. After owning the WF-500 i knew why the guys here also call theyr high-power Xenons _Hotwires_.


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## SCEMan (Mar 5, 2007)

Congrats on the detailed analysis. Well thoughtout and logical. I purchased a R500 in September before the WF-500 was available and so far have been very happy with it's performance and relability. I use the R500 almost nightly as the compliment to my G2 w/G&P 3W LED during my walk in the foothills behind my house. Still on the original bulb & no problems except for a bad DC charger that was quickly replaced by Lighthound with no questions asked. I'm confident that defective batteries would be handled in the same manner. When I spend this amount of $$$ I choose a reputable dealer that supports their product line. Granted, I have the luxury of being only a couple states away from Lighthound, so support is simple. Your situation is different and the WF-500's battery modularity works well for you.

Personally, I like the well-designed plug-in charging feature of the R500. I have several other lights using removeable rechargeables and it's nice to simply plug-in and recharge without having to remove the tailcap or holster. The AC car charger has also come in handy.

I've yet to see a side-by-side beamshot comparison between the R500 & WF-500, but they're probably fairly close.

Glad the WF-500 has worked out so well for you.


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## Fusion_m8 (Mar 5, 2007)

Darn... I've got the R500 for 6 months and now this makes me wanna get the WF-500...


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## Raptor# (Mar 5, 2007)

Hey Fusion, don't worry.  Just see it this way: You had a 400-lumens light for 4-5 months longer than me.  And as long as it works... 
Besides, i think 6 months ago the WF-500 wasn't even available..? At least not for the same price.

@SCRE: Thanks for your post. I agree, with lighthound you can be sure that you've got a store who really cares about his costumers, actually its my favourite shop. Made nothing but good experiences with them. Only thing is, if i'd ever need replacement parts it would take some time to ship them to me (although that ain't lighthounds fault - the local costums usually like to keep my stuff for 1-3 weeks :thumbsdow ).

Your preference of the charging system is interresting - thinking some more about this, i guess it actually depends on how you use your light. 
My flashlights usually sit for a long time before i actually need them. But yours gets used very regulary, and thus even saving a little time can come in handy.


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## Russianesq (Mar 5, 2007)

The one question where there is no agreement is how long the G&P Scorpion R500 can be comfortably used for and the battery run time.

I tested my G&P Scorpion R500 and it can run for 20 minutes before becoming scary hot and after 10 minute of rest it can run another 20 minutes then LIGHTS OUT.


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## mdocod (Mar 5, 2007)

when the WF-500 came out I came to the same conclusion as you, great post Raptor! I've been looking forward to buying a WF-500 for a long time, just haven't been able to convince myself to spend more on flashlights. (Heck I already bought the batteries for it from AW last time I ordered, but in the mean time bored out a maxfire to use them while caving, lol)

one thing you should add to the list of advantages for the WF-500 is the extender. As I understand it you can remove a 33mm extender and run 18500 cells instead of 18650s, less runtime but smaller size... not sure what kinda current the bulb draws so I'm not sure if this is really totally safe- But I assume that if it runs ~40 minuts on 18650s then it probably pulls about 3 amp, which should be safe for most 18500s....


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## NoFair (Mar 5, 2007)

mdocod said:


> when the WF-500 came out I came to the same conclusion as you, great post Raptor! I've been looking forward to buying a WF-500 for a long time, just haven't been able to convince myself to spend more on flashlights. (Heck I already bought the batteries for it from AW last time I ordered, but in the mean time bored out a maxfire to use them while caving, lol)
> 
> one thing you should add to the list of advantages for the WF-500 is the extender. As I understand it you can remove a 33mm extender and run 18500 cells instead of 18650s, less runtime but smaller size... not sure what kinda current the bulb draws so I'm not sure if this is really totally safe- But I assume that if it runs ~40 minuts on 18650s then it probably pulls about 3 amp, which should be safe for most 18500s....



I think my WF-500 draws about 3A from 2400mAh Sanyo 18650s. My protected 18500s (not AWs newest) do not work without double/triple clicking
The bulbs seems ok and I have 2 spares and a ceramic socket that can use WA1111 Bi pins. 
It is a great deal for $33 especially since I get 18650s free and already had a charger

Sverre


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## Metrotex (Apr 12, 2007)

Whatever you do stay away from the E-hobby Asia site, they sold lights that they knew were defective than did'nt back them up. They're a bunch of crooks.


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## cheapo (Apr 12, 2007)

both good lights. my r500 is awsome. nice throw, but not quite m4 throw. good bq, and decent runtime for what it is. i like the charger, but i dont like the fact that g&p has a monopoly on batteries, so you will be paying outa your behind for the replacements. bulb reliablity on my r500 is very good, and build quality is as high as any of my other lights. i am glad i got it, cuz i can just buy one light and it comes ready to charge, insteada buying differnt parts. also, the battery pack is pretty good (guess i got lucky). it really is a nice light. 

however, comparing two lights can only be done fairly if you own both lights. As for reliability, that can only be found through ownership of both lights.

-David


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## Raptor# (Apr 12, 2007)

Well, seems like the main problem with the R500 was the battery pack and its unreliableness for most people. AW's protected 18650s have a pretty good reputation here.
So i believe in this case its possible to give a rough estimate of the lights reliability without owning both. 

Same for comparing them - they are 2 very similar lights except for the battery pack and charger.

But its nice to hear that your R500 works fine - no doubts, both lights are a good deal for theyr respective price.


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## cheapo (Apr 13, 2007)

Raptor# said:


> Well, seems like the main problem with the R500 was the battery pack and its unreliableness for most people. AW's protected 18650s have a pretty good reputation here.
> So i believe in this case its possible to give a rough estimate of the lights reliability without owning both.
> 
> Same for comparing them - they are 2 very similar lights except for the battery pack and charger.
> ...



oh. no doubt aw's batts are more reliable. but the light itself- disregarding batteries might be a different story.... but since the battery is part of the r500, i see your point.

i dont own the wf, so i dont know, but if your's works well, than there is no doubt that it has more bang for the buck.... its very nicely priced. 

oh, and i hope i wasnt sounding in any way.. rude with that last "you gotta own them both to make a fair comparison".... remark.


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## Metrotex (Apr 13, 2007)

Alright, thanks to this thread I found out that the 18650's that I bought for my Stinger upgrade work in my G&P that I bought with the bad battery from those crooks at E-Hobby Asia.

Get ready for a PayPal AW!


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## Raptor# (Apr 13, 2007)

Don't worry cheapo, i didn't perceive it as rude in any way.  Actually i think its a very good point, and in general i'd have the some opinion... and even thought i think in this case its possible, theres no doubt i could make a better comparision if i would own both.


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## philman (Apr 21, 2007)

Do I understand this light comes with the needed batteries, 2 x 18650? thanks.


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## willrx (Apr 21, 2007)

WF-500 does not. Scorpion does.


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## TITAN1833 (Apr 21, 2007)

Correction you can get the WF-500 complete with batteries and WF-139 charger.dare i say it ebay.shop around.


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## mdocod (Apr 21, 2007)

Hey I just thought of another possible point against the R500...

Does the charger have ANY balancing function? Or does it just charge in series over and over, till things get so far out of whack that R500=


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## willrx (Apr 21, 2007)

Thanks for the correction TITAN, didn't know.

Good point mdocod.


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## TITAN1833 (Apr 21, 2007)

Hey no biggy for the price they are both good value dont you think.


willrx said:


> Thanks for the correction TITAN, didn't know.
> 
> Good point mdocod.


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## mdocod (Apr 22, 2007)

> Hey no biggy



18650s are a big biggy


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## Turbo DV8 (Apr 22, 2007)

cheapo said:


> but i dont like the fact that g&p has a monopoly on batteries, so you will be paying outa your behind for the replacements.


 
I just got an R500, my first incan light since my old SL-20, and I am new to Li-ion batteries. Reading about the battery packs on this, I want to preserve my pack as well as possible. Can I leave the light on the charger, or must it be unplugged once the light is green? Also, how do they compare to Ni-MH in terms of self-discharge? Do they like to be kept topped up, or is it OK to let them sit for a spell partially discharged? I read on flashlight reviews.com that the cells have a protection circuit... does this mean i do not have to worry about over-discharging them? Thanks.


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## cheapo (Apr 22, 2007)

i wouldnt worry about overcharging or over discharging. its fine. i'v had mine for 6 months and the battery pack is still fine. its a quality battery-pack imo.


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## NoFair (Apr 23, 2007)

Turbo DV8 said:


> I just got an R500, my first incan light since my old SL-20, and I am new to Li-ion batteries. Reading about the battery packs on this, I want to preserve my pack as well as possible. Can I leave the light on the charger, or must it be unplugged once the light is green? Also, how do they compare to Ni-MH in terms of self-discharge? Do they like to be kept topped up, or is it OK to let them sit for a spell partially discharged? I read on flashlight reviews.com that the cells have a protection circuit... does this mean i do not have to worry about over-discharging them? Thanks.



Li-ions hardly discharge at all unless they are damaged. 

They like to be topped off and last longer if you do not drain them too much.
If drained they should be recharged as soon as possible to prevent long term damage. Protected cells (like in the R500) are not as easily damaged as unprotected cells.
I would try to avoid leaving the light in the charger after it is fully charged. Some chargers will damage the batteries if they are left in for a long time. 
I don't know about the R500, but since the self discharge is almost zero there is no real advantage of keeping it in the charger.


Sverre


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## Lupercal (Nov 2, 2009)

Good heavens - it's been three years, almost to the day, since I last posted!!!  I doubt anyone remembers me, but I live in Tasmania if that jogs any memories.

This is an ancient thread but I thought I would add to it because.... well, because it's ancient and perhaps that makes this info more interesting.

About.... heck - 3 or 4 years ago - I bought what was supposed to be the Scorpion, via ebay. I did this with some trepidation because it was more expensive back then, and it had a very dodgey reputation for dying the second time you turned it on, flashouts, or just never working at all. But apparently when it DID work it worked like a.... very bright torch.

Well, when it arrived it turned out to be the WF-500, not the G&P. I was a bit confused because at that stage I'd not heard of the WF, but it appeared identical to the one in the picture, so I just assumed it was a generic re-badged thing, and took it down to the unlit local football ground on my nightly walk, pointed it across the ground and turned it on. And, well it would be going a bit far to say that all hell broke loose, but let's just say I was plainly looking at the treetops on the far side of the ground.

Now. that's one thing, but perhaps more significantly, after three or four years I'm STILL using the original bulb, the original batteries, and the original charger. I just ordered a new bulb which I'll need sooner or later, but the thing hasn't put a foot wrong. Once I banged it and it dimmed, and I thought "oh, no" - but I stuck the batteries in the charger and it was good as new again. The only thing I'm worried about is if something happens to the reflector assembly, but at the price they are now, 
I may as well just buy a spare torch.

True, I have a lot of flashlights, and I don't use it regularly, or for long periods, but still... 

Of all my lights, I'd say it reminds me most of my Bearcub, but at the time that cost WAY more, and is probably slightly less bright. The Bearcub probably has more throw and the WF is a bit floodier. (I'm not dissing the Bearcub, BTW. The quality control is way better. You could probably smack someone over the head with it and their head would break before the Bearcub did, whereas if you dropped the WF onto the pavement from waist-height I wouldn't bet on it still working when you picked it up.) But then you could have five more of them in your cupboard.

Frankly, I'm amazed the thing is still being made, and if you're a bit of a retro-incan nut like me, I'd pick one up and well.. hope you don't get a dud.

Lupercal

(I wonder what my avatar is? It's been so long...)


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## Eric242 (Nov 3, 2009)

Lupercal said:


> The only thing I'm worried about is if something happens to the reflector assembly, but at the price they are now,
> I may as well just buy a spare torch.


Good to hear you still like your light. Usually the oldies get retired when they can´t keep up with the brighter new lights, unless it´s something like a mule.

Btw., lighthound still sells lots of parts for the WF-500. A complete head with lens and reflector is $19.99 and the reflector alone only $9.99 + shipping.

http://www.lighthound.com/search.asp?keyword=ultrafire&search=GO

Eric


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## Turbo DV8 (Nov 3, 2009)

Can the bulbs be purchased separately? Last I checked, the bulb was sold only with the reflector. Thanks.


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## Eric242 (Nov 4, 2009)

Check the lighthound linke above. It´s availablt for 10 bucks +. Iirc lumens factory has a bulb available as well.

Eric


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## Phaserburn (Nov 4, 2009)

the LF bulb is top notch quality and a noticeable difference vs stock.


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