# Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II



## MrGman (Oct 30, 2008)

*This is the growing collection of Lumens readings taken in a real integration 6 inch sphere system over the last 5 years. **More to be added. **Orange readings are Incandescents, Truth is Truth. *

*Make/Model Torch___________Real IS Lumens_______Batteries____________Notes_____________,*

Anto_XP-G_R4 P60____________306___turn on___________18650 IMR___________Solarforce L2 host AR coated glass . 
Anto_XP-G_R4 P60____________297___30 sec___________18650 IMR___________Solarforce L2 host AR coated glass. 
Anto_XP-G_R4 P60____________293___60 sec___________18650 IMR___________Solarforce L2 host AR coated glass. 
Anto_XP-G_R4 P60____________290___120 sec__________18650 IMR___________Solarforce L2 host AR coated glass. 
Anto_XP-G_R4 P60____________287___180 sec__________18650 IMR___________Solarforce L2 host AR coated glass. 

Thrunite XP-G____________260__turn on_________2X17500________Solarforce L2 host AR coated glass.
Thrunite XP-G____________251__60 sec,_________2X17500________Solarforce L2 host AR coated glass.
Thrunite XP-G, different unit_230__turn on,________2X17500________Surefire C2 host with extension.
SureFire 6PLED,_______________82,__________________2 primaries__________original LED________,
Surefire E1B_high______________85.3_________________1 primary______________________________,
Surefire E1B_low,_______________6.3_________________1 primary______________________________,
SureFire E2DL on high,________210__turn on___________2 primaries__________Brand new as is from Factory!
SureFire E2DL on high,________203__warm.____________2 primaries__________let it run over a minute,
SureFire E2DL on high,________181__warm.____________2 primaries__________w/SF F04 Diffuser, on > 60sec,
SureFire E2DL on low,___________8.1_________________2 primaries______________________________,
SureFire M600C Scout,________171__turn on___________2 primaries__________KX2C head; single mode version of the E2DL,
SureFire M600C Scout,________165__warm.____________2 primaries__________60 second warm up time. 
SureFire M600C Scout,________148__warm.____________2 primaries__________w/SF F04 Diffuser, on > 60sec 
SureFire KX2C on E2DL_______192__turn on.___________2 primaries__________Different KX2C head on my E2DL body.
SureFire KX2C on E2DL_______185__warm_____________2 primaries__________Different KX2C head on my E2DL body.

Solarforce R2-S______________202___________________3 RCRs,_____________Browning Black Ice 3 cell host.
Solarforce R2-5M low,__________37___________________2 primaries___________Surefire 6P host_________,
Solarforce R2-5M Med,_________85___________________2 primaries___________Surefire 6P host___________,
Solarforce R2-5M High________160-155________________2 primaries,__________Surefire 6P host__________,
Solarforce Cree R2-S_________210____________________2 primaries__________Surefire 6P host___________,
Solarforce Cree R2-S_________190____________________2X17500 LI___________Solarforce L2 Host 1 extension,
Solarforce Cree Q5,__________150____________________2X17500 LI___________Solarforce L2 Host 1 extension,
Quark Ti-Tact 123(2)__________240__turn-on____________2XRCR123 AW________Quark on "Highest mode"
Quark Ti-Tact 123(2)__________229__60 sec____________2XRCR123 AW________Quark on "Highest mode"

Quark Preon 1_High___________58__turn-on____________1AAA Alkaline_______________________________,
Quark Preon 1_High___________55__60 sec,____________1AAA Alkaline_______________________________,
Quark Preon 1_Med___________19.5__turn-on___________1AAA Alkaline_______________________________,
Quark Preon 1_Low____________3.0__turn-on___________1AAA Alkaline_______________________________,
Quark Preon 1_High___________63__turn-on____________1AAA NiMH Rayovac Hybrid____________________,
Quark Preon 1_Med___________18.9__turn-on___________1AAA NiMH Rayovac Hybrid____________________,
Quark Preon 1_Low____________2.9__turn-on___________1AAA NiMH Rayovac Hybrid____________________,
 
Quark Preon 2_High__________140__turn-on_____________2AAA Alkaline_______________________________,
Quark Preon 2_High__________129__30 sec_____________2AAA Alkaline_______________________________,
Quark Preon 2_High__________123__60 sec_____________2AAA Alkaline_______________________________,
Quark Preon 2_High__________118__120 sec____________2AAA Alkaline_______________________________,
Quark Preon 2_Med___________31.1__turn-on____________2AAA Alkaline_______________________________,
Quark Preon 2_Low____________3.0__turn-on____________2AAA Alkaline_______________________________,
Quark Preon 2_High__________148__turn-on____________2AAA NiMH Rayovac Hybrid____________________,
Quark Preon 2_Med___________30.5__turn-on___________2AAA NiMH Rayovac Hybrid____________________,
Quark Preon 2_Low____________3.0__turn-on___________2AAA NiMH Rayovac Hybrid____________________,

Quark AA mini_High___________68__turn-on_____________1AA Tenergy NiMH___________________________,
Quark AA mini_High___________65__60 sec_____________1AA Tenergy NiMH___________________________,
Quark AA mini_High___________64__120 sec____________1AA Tenergy NiMH___________________________,
Quark AA mini_Med___________20__turn-on_____________1AA Tenergy NiMH___________________________,
Quark AA mini_Low,____________2.3__turn-on____________1AA Tenergy NiMH___________________________,

Quark 123 Mini_High_________200__turn-on_____________1XIMR16340_________________________________,
Quark 123 Mini_High_________192__60 sec_____________1XIMR16340_________________________________,
Quark 123 Mini_High_________190__120 sec____________1XIMR16340_________________________________,

Quark RGB White High_______150__turn-on_____________2XLIR16340_________________________________,
Quark RGB White Med________63__turn-on_____________2XLIR16340_________________________________,
Quark RGB White Low 2_______14.5_turn-on____________2XLIR16340_________________________________,
Quark RGB White Low 1________1.9_turn-on____________2XLIR16340_________________________________,
Quark RGB White Moon_________0.16_turn-on,__________2XLIR16340_________________________________,
Quark RGB RED High__________70__turn-on____________2XLIR16340________________________________,
Quark RGB Green High________111__turn-on____________2XLIR16340________________________________,
Quark RGB Blue_High__________35__turn-on____________2XLIR16340________________________________,



Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______207__turn-on____________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______198__30 sec,____________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______185__60 sec,____________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______169__120 sec,___________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______120__180 sec,___________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,

Nailbender XP-G_R4 1.2A,_____265__turn-on____________3AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host +1 ext,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 1.2A,_____249__30 sec,____________3AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host +1 ext,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 1.2A,_____243__60 sec,____________3AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host +1 ext,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 1.2A,_____235__120 sec,___________3AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host +1 ext,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 1.2A,_____231__180 sec,___________3AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host +1 ext,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 1.2A,_____276__turn-on____________2X18650 (IMR)________Solarforce L2 Host, AR coated glass, 1 long ext,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 1.2A,_____262__30 sec,____________2X18650 (IMR)________Solarforce L2 Host, AR coated glass, 1 long ext,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 1.2A,_____258__60 sec,____________2X18650 (IMR)________Solarforce L2 Host, AR coated glass, 1 long ext,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 1.2A,_____255__120 sec,___________2X18650 (IMR)________Solarforce L2 Host, AR coated glass, 1 long ext,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 1.2A,_____253__180 sec,___________2X18650 (IMR)________Solarforce L2 Host, AR coated glass, 1 long ext,


Nailbender P7 Drop in,________460__turn-on____________2 SF CR123 fresh______Solarforce L2 Host, AR coated glass,
Nailbender P7 Drop in,________387__warm_____________2 SF CR123 fresh,_____Solarforce L2 Host, AR coated glass,
Nailbender P7 Drop in,________427__turn-on,___________1_18650 LI unprotected__Solarforce L2 Host, AR coated glass,
Nailbender P7 Drop in,________357__warm_____________1_18650 LI unprotected__Solarforce L2 Host, AR coated glass,
Nailbender P7 Drop-in________300__turn-on____________2_WF CR123 >60 dead__Surefire 6P Patriotic Spirit Edition, 
Nailbender P7 Drop-in________446__turn-on,___________2 SF CR123 fresh_______Surefire 6P Patriotic Spirit Edition,
Nailbender P7 Drop-In________377__warm_____________2 SF CR123 fresh_______Surefire 6P Patriotic Spirit Edition,
Nailbender P7 Drop-In________517__turn-on____________3.90V__2.55A Reg supply___ No host at all.
Nailbender SST50_P60_H_____470__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650__________Solarforce L2 with AR coated glass. 
Nailbender SST50_P60_H_____450__20 sec,____________1_IMR 18650__________Solarforce L2 with AR coated glass. 
Nailbender SST50_P60_H_____444__30 sec,____________1_IMR 18650__________Solarforce L2 with AR coated glass. 
Nailbender SST50_P60_H_____430__60 sec,____________1_IMR 18650__________Solarforce L2 with AR coated glass. 
Nailbender SST50_P60_H_____416__120 sec,___________1_IMR 18650__________Solarforce L2 with AR coated glass. 
Nailbender SST50_P60_H_____407__180 sec,___________1_IMR 18650__________Solarforce L2 with AR coated glass. 
Nailbender SST50_P60_H_____405__240 sec,___________1_IMR 18650__________Solarforce L2 with AR coated glass. 
Nailbender SST50_P60_M_____141__steady,____________1_IMR 18650__________Solarforce L2 with AR coated glass. 
Nailbender SST50_P60_L,______19__steady,____________1_IMR 18650__________Solarforce L2 with AR coated glass. 

Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________480__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_No Bezel__(DD=direct drive)
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________457__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_ Bezel AR coated Glass,
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________406__warm,_____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_ Bezel AR coated glass,
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________185__turn-on____________2.99V_0.85A__2.54Watts__Reg Supply___No host at all. 
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________314__turn-on____________3.19V_1.60A__5.10Watts__Reg Supply___No host at all. 
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________397__turn-on____________3.39V_2.10A__7.12Watts__Reg Supply___No host at all. 
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________440__turn-on____________3.52V_2.60A__9.15Watts__Reg Supply___No host at all. 
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________470__turn-on____________3.60V_3.01A_10.84Watts__Reg Supply___No host at all.
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________518__turn-on____________3.65V_3.20A_11.68Watts__Reg Supply___No host at all.
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________617__turn-on____________3.82V_4.20A_16.04Watts__Reg Supply___No host at all.
Would not hold any of the higher values steady state. The higher it started the faster the readings dropped, even for just 5 seconds of testing. 

Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________542__turn-on____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________528__30 sec.____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________514__1 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________509__90 sec.____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________504__2 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________496__3 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________492__4 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________488__5 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel

Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________482__turn-on____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________461__30 sec.____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________453__1 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________447__90 sec.____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________443__2 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________435__3 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________430__4 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________426__5 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.

Malkoff MC-E_W_reg,________482__turn-on____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_W_reg,________458__1 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_W_reg,________449__2 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_W_reg,________445__3 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_W_reg,________440__4 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel

Malkoff MC-E_W_reg,________430__turn-on.____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host AR coated glass in Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_W_reg,________408__1 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host AR coated glass in Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_W_reg,________400__2 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host AR coated glass in Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_W_reg,________395__3 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host AR coated glass in Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_W_reg,________391__4 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host AR coated glass in Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_W_reg,________388__5 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host AR coated glass in Bezel


Malkoff M60________________231__turn-on____________2 primaries____________Surefire 6P host_______________,
Malkoff M60________________220__warm,_____________2 primaries____________Surefire 6P host_______________,
Malkoff M60________________235__turn-on____________2 AW ICR123__________Surefire C2 Centurion host_______,
Malkoff M60________________218__warm _____________2 AW ICR 123_________Surefire C2 Centurian host_______,
Malkoff M60________________276__turn on____________2X17500 LI____________NO BEZEL Solarforce L2 +1 ext.__,
Malkoff M60________________245__warm_____________2X17500 LI____________NO BEZEL Solarforce L2 +1 ext.__,
Malkoff M60________________240__turn on,___________2X17500 LI____________w/nonCren BZL Solarforce L2 +1 ext.
Malkoff M60________________215__warm_____________2X17500 LI____________w/nonCren BZL Solarforce L2 +1 ext.
Malkoff M60________________212__turn-on____________2 primaries____________Solarforce L2 host_____________,
Malkoff M60________________202__warm_____________2 primaries_____________Solarforce L2 host_____________,
Malkoff M60F_______________220__turn-on___________2 primaries_____________Surefire 6P host_______________,
Malkoff M60F_______________216__warm_____________2 primaries_____________Surefire 6P host_______________,
Malkoff M60F_______________202___________________2X17500 LI_____________Solarforce L2 Host 1 extension,
Malkoff M60W______________172-165________________2X17500 LI____________Solarforce L2 Host 1 extension,
Malkoff M60W______________185-165________________2X17500 LI,___________ L2 Host 1 extension, _Surefire Bezel_,
Malkoff M60W______________192 peak_______________2X17500 LI____________NO BEZEL L2 Host 1 extension,
Malkoff M30________________237___________________1X18650LI_____________NO BEZEL L2 Host_____________,
Malkoff M30________________207___________________1X18650LI_____________Solarforce L2 Host______________,
Mag-LED 4D________________50__drop to 40 1 min____4XNiCads____________-------------------------------------,
Mag-LED 4D_______________80 no reflector,__________4XNiCads____________-------------------------------------,
Mag Terralux directly________120 (no reflector)_________4XNiCads____________-------------------------------------,


Browning Black Ice 9V,______165,__________________3 primaries__________incan--No bezel or glass,
with Magstar Xenon lamp,____125,__________________3 primaries__________same incan--with bezel and glass,
Lumens Factor EO-9 Lamp___272__turn on peak______2X18650 L I__________Solarforce L2 Host 1 ext, AR Coated glass in BZL. 
Lumens Factor EO-9 Lamp___260___warm___________2X18650 L I__________Solarforce L2 Host 1 ext, AR Coated glass in BZL.
Lumens Factor HO-9 Lamp___180__________________2X17500 L I__________Solarforce L2 Host 1 extension,
Lumens Factor ES-9 Lamp___100__________________2X17500 L I__________Solarforce L2 Host 1 extension,
Lumens Factor ES-9 Lamp___127__turn on peak______2X18650 L I__________Solarforce L2 18650 Host + 1 ext, AR coated glass in Bezel,
Lumens Factor ES-9 Lamp___122__60sec.___________2X18650 L I__________Solarforce L2 18650 Host + 1 ext, AR coated glass in Bezel,
Lumens Factor ES-9 Lamp___120__120sec.__________2X18650 L I__________Solarforce L2 18650 Host + 1 ext, AR coated glass in Bezel,
Lumens Factor ES-9 Lamp___126__turn on peak______2X17500 L I__________Solarforce L2 Host 1 ext, no glass in Bezel!
Lumens Factor ES-9 Lamp___122__warm____________2X17500 L I__________Solarforce L2 Host 1 ext, no glass in Bezel!
Lumens Factor ES-9 Lamp___121__turn on peak______2X17500 L I__________Solarforce L2 Host 1 ext, non cren bezel.
Lumens Factor ES-9 Lamp___116__warm____________2X17500 L I__________Solarforce L2 Host 1 ext, non cren bezel.
SureFire P60 Lamp__________87___turn on peak_____2XCR123____________Solarforce L2 Host, no glass in Bezel!
SureFire P60 Lamp__________75___warm___________2XCR123___________Solarforce L2 Host, no glass in Bezel!
SureFire P60 Lamp__________80___turn on peak_____2XCR123____________Solarforce L2 Host, non crenellated Bezel!
SureFire P60 Lamp__________68___warm___________2XCR123___________Solarforce L2 Host, non crenellated Bezel!
Surefire A2_________________65___2 min___________2XCR123___________Fresh Eveready CR123As CPF Benchmarking unit. 

Inova X5 Green._____________16___________________2 primary___________------------------------------------,
Inova X03 06 model__________38___________________2 primaries__________------------------------------------,
Inova T5 (07model),__________96___________________3 primaries__________-----------------------------------,
Inova T5 (06 model,)_________ 46___________________3 primaries__________------------------------------------,
Inova T1 (08 model)_________100___________________2 primaries__________------------------------------------,
Fenix T1 turbo______________225 peak _____________2 primaries__________------------------------------------,
Fenix T1turbo,______________219.4_________________2 primary____________----------------------------------,
Fenix T1 Low________________46.5,________________2 primary____________----------------------------------,
Fenix L1T_High_____________148 peak_down to 140___1 NiMH_____________RV7 3 Level Driver-------------,
Fenix L1T_med,______________33__________________1 NiMH_____________RV7 3 Level Driver-------------,
Fenix L1T_low,_______________10__________________1 NiMH_____________RV7 3 Level Driver--------------,
Fenix L2D Q5 Turbo__________145__________________2 AA alkalines_______same with NiMH-----------------,
Fenix L2D Q5 Med,____________37__________________2 AA alkalines_______same with NiMH-----------------,
Fenix L2D Q5 Lo_______________8__________________2 AA alk____________same with NiMH----------------,
Fenix L2D High_______________76__________________2 AA alk____________same with NiMH ---------------,
Fenix P2D CE Turbo,_________104__________________1 primary___________------------------------------------,
Fenix P2D CE high,___________61__________________1 primary____________------------------------------------,
Fenix P2D CE med,___________30__________________1 primary____________------------------------------------,
Fenix P2D CE low,_____________6.9________________1 primary_____________-----------------------------------,
EagleTac P10A2 Low__________50,_________________2AA eneloops_________---------------------------------,
EagleTac P10A2 High________173__________________2AA eneloops_________----------------------------------,
EagleTac P100A2 High_______156__turn-on,__________2AA NiMH____________----------------------------------,
EagleTac P100A2 High_______152__60 sec___________2AA NiMH____________----------------------------------,
EagleTac P100A2 High_______151__180 sec__________2AA NiMH____________----------------------------------,
EagleTac P100A2 low_________51__steady___________2AA NiMH____________----------------------------------,
EagleTac T10C2 HIgh________268__turn-on,__________2 primaries____________---------------------------------,
EagleTac T10C2 HIgh________256.5__warm,__________2 primaries____________---------------------------------,
EagleTac T10C2 Low,_________60,__________________2 primaries____________----------------------------------,
EagleTac P10C2 High________225,__________________2 primaries____________-------------------------------,
EagleTac P10C2 Low,_________50,__________________2 primaries____________-------------------------------,
DX_MC-E High_____________337__turn-on,__________1_IMR 16340__________SF E1B Host, custom mod, doesnt hold value
DX_MC-E Low,_____________137__turn-on,__________1_IMR 16340__________SF E1B Host, custom mod,
DX_MC-E High_____________385__turn-on,__________1_18650 LI____________Solarforce L2 Host AR coated glass,
DX_MC-E High_____________345__warm____________1_18650 LI____________Solarforce L2 Host AR coated glass,
DX-MC-E Low______________150__warm____________1_18650 LI____________Solarforce L2 Host AT coated glass, 
Duracell Truebeam Wide,______74__________________3AAA Alkalines________-------------------------------,
Duracell Truebeam Wide,______64__________________3AAA NiMH __________-----------------------------,
Duracell Truebeam Narrow_____64__________________3AAA Alkalines________------------------------------,
Duracell Truebeam Narrow_____60__________________3AAA NiMH __________-------------------------------,
Dorcy K2 120 Lm,____________86__________________3 AAA NimH___________------------------------------,
Dorcy K2 120 Lm,___________100 (no reflector)_______3 AAA NimH__________-------------------------------,
Dereelight 3SM WC Q5_High __242__turn on__________2X17500 LI___________Solarforce Host+1EXT_AR coated glass, OP refl,
Dereelight 3SM WC Q5_High __222__warm____________2X17500 LI___________Solarforce Host+1EXT_AR coated glass, OP refl,
Dereelight 3SM WC Q5_Med ___78__ warm____________2X17500 LI___________Solarforce Host+1EXT_AR coated glass, OP refl,
Dereelight 3SM WC Q5_low,____25_ warm,____________2X17500 LI___________Solarforce Host+1EXT_AR coated glass, OP refl,

DereeLight 3SM5A_Q3-High,___146__________________2 primaries____________Surefire 6P host------------,
DereeLight 3SM5A_Q3-Med_____87__________________2 primaries____________Surefire 6P host------------,
DereeLight 3SM5A_Q3-Low_____47__________________2 primaries____________Surefire 6P host------------,
_This Q3 is the older style 1A draw pill, not the newer 1.2 amp draw._

DereeLight 3SD WH R2-High___215__turn-on__________1_18650______________ Solarforce L2 Host AR coated Glass,
DereeLight 3SD WH R2-High___197__warm,___________1_18650______________ Solarforce L2 Host AR coated Glass,
DereeLight 3SD WH R2-Med.____65__warm,___________1_18650______________ Solarforce L2 Host AR coated Glass,
DereeLight 3SD WH R2-Low,____27__warm,___________1_18650______________ Solarforce L2 Host AR coated Glass,
This is the 2.8-4.2V rated pill. 

Dereelight 3SD_XP-G 1.2A_____300__turn-on__________1_18650AW___________CL1H V4 host on high mode, this is the R5 version
Dereelight 3SD_XP-G 1.2A_____282__30 sec__________1_18650AW___________CL1H V4 host on high mode, this is the R5 version
Dereelight 3SD_XP-G 1.2A_____277__60 sec__________1_18650AW___________CL1H V4 host on high mode, this is the R5 version
Dereelight 3SD_XP-G 1.2A_____272__120 sec_________1_18650AW___________CL1H V4 host on high mode, this is the R5 version
Dereelight 3SD_XP-G 1.2A_____269__180 sec_________1_18650AW___________CL1H V4 host on high mode, this is the R5 version
Dereelight 3SD_XP-G 1.2A_____240__turn-on__________1_18650AW___________CL1H V4 host with the 36mm larger reflector head, on high mode, fresh battery


Pill and Reflector Type_____________SLR F Bzl/AR__SLR F plain Bzl__SF 6P Bzl,
Dereelight 3SM R2 SMO refl: High______227___________220____________215,
Dereelight 3SM R2 OP refl: High,_______226___________223____________215,
Dereelight 3SM Q5 SMO refl: High,,_____215___________207____________203,
Dereelight 1SM R2 OP refl: High,_______211___________209____________206,
Dereelight 3SM R2 OP refl: Med,________78.3___________78.3___________74.0,
Dereelight 3SM R2 SMO refl: Med_______77.5___________74.8___________73.0,
Dereelight 3SM Q5 SMO refl: Med_______76.7___________73.3___________71.9,
Dereelight 3SM R2 OP refl: Low,________26.1___________25.9___________24.6,
Dereelight 3SM Q5 SMO refl: Low_______25.7___________24.7___________24.2,
Dereelight 3SM R2 SMO refl: Low_______25.5___________24.8___________24.1,
Dereelight 3SM R2 SMO refl: Low_______25.5___________24.8___________24.1,
Sorted in Order of Brightness from high to low. All of these in a Solarforce Host with 1 extension 2X17500 batteries. Solarforce Bezel with A/R glass, Solarforce Plain glass/Bezel, last is the stock Sure Fire 6P Bezel, all done side by side into same integration sphere on the same day. The R2 is the creamy white/greenish tint Wh. These are all warmed up readings not turn on cold "peak". 


Craftsman "170Lm" High,______150___________________6 AAA Alkalines________------------------------------,
Craftsman "170Lm" High,______133___________________6AAA NiMH___________------------------------------,
Craftsman "170Lm" Low,_______89___________________6 AAA Alkalines_________------------------------------,
Craftsman "170Lm" Low,_______74___________________6AAA NiMH____________-------------------------------,

MilkySpit Creemator Low,_______2___________________2 primaries____________Sure Fire E2E Exec Elite-,
MilkySpit Creemator L-Med,____26.3_________________2 primaries_____________Sure Fire E2E Exec Elite-,
MilkySpit Creemator Med,______80.2__________________2 primaries____________Sure Fire E2E Exec Elite-,
MilkySpit Creemator High______242___________________2 primaries____________Sure Fire E2E Exec Elite-,

Lumens Factory D26 LED_____182 peak_______________2 primaries down to 170 when warm Sure Fire 6P Host,
Lumens Factory D26 LED_____182 peak_______________2x17500 down to 170 when warm Solarforce 1 ext___,
TNVC Single mode___________166__turn on ___________2X17500 LI___________SureFire Bezel Solarforce Host.
TNVC Single mode___________177__turn on ___________2X17500 LI___________Solarforce Host with A/R coated glass.
TNVC Single mode___________169__warm_ ___________2X17500 LI___________Solarforce Host with A/R coated glass.
Neoseikan Spartanian II_______157___________________1 AW RCR123_________Level #13,
Neoseikan Spartanian II_______122.8._________________1 AW RCR123_________Level #12,
Neoseikan Spartanian II_______103.7._________________1 AW RCR123_________Level #11,
Neoseikan Spartanian II________82.4._________________1 AW RCR123_________Level #10,
Neoseikan Spartanian II________70.3._________________1 AW RCR123_________Level #9,
Neoseikan Spartanian II________58.2._________________1 AW RCR123_________Level #8,
Neoseikan Spartanian II________45.1._________________1 AW RCR123_________Level #7,
Neoseikan Spartanian II________31.3._________________1 AW RCR123_________Level #6,
Neoseikan Spartanian II________24.6._________________1 AW RCR123_________Level #5,
Neoseikan Spartanian II________16.9._________________1 AW RCR123_________Level #4,
Neoseikan Spartanian II_________3.97.________________1 AW RCR123_________Level #3
Neoseikan Spartanian II_________1.091________________1 AW RCR123_________Level #2,
Neoseikan Spartanian II_________0.150________________1 AW RCR123_________Level #1,

Moddoo Triple R2____________560__turn-on____________2X18650 IMR________________,
Moddoo Triple R2____________530__warm 60 sec,_______2X18650 IMR_______________,

Solarforce standard Bezel's glass is not AR coated, and the assault crown cuts off a little of the outer perimeter of light, it drops a measurable amount of lumens compared to the Surefire bezel's window. All newer readings are with a non crenallated bezel and the glass is A/R coated.


----------



## Kiessling (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

This is the second part of this thread:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/211402&page=13

The first post above is a copy of the first post of the old thread in order to preserve the great work and to allow MrGman to continue editing the relevant first post.

Great work and thank you very much.


bernie


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## MrGman (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

This is now my block for Integration Sphere readings from the 16" home made sphere system. I have used readings from the 6" sphere system at work (shown above) to "calibrate" this home system. The sensor of the meter used at home has a photopic curve response but that doesn't necessarily mean its as good and tracks with the one in the much more expensive system at work. Rather than try to tweak readings with different colors I am just going to post what I believe is a best fit for this system and leave it as is for relative comparison readings all from the same system. The larger head flashlight (torches) that will never fit in the system at work had to be measured only in my 16" system which has a 3 inch opening. That opening is less than the ratio of sphere diameter (internal) divided by 5. I will add to this as I get more lights to test as I do to the one above for the smaller lights that fit into the system at work. 

Brand/Model_________,____Host/Model/Bezel_____Mode_______Lumens,__On Time_______,
___________________,____Any Additional notes___Add. Notes___ ______________________,
Dereelight 3SM R2 SMO__,__SF C2, 2 AW RCR123__high_________223.0_____3 sec_______,
Dereelight 3SM R2 SMO__,__SF C2, 2 AW RCR123__low,__________24.3____10 sec_______,
Dereelight 3SM R2 SMO__,__SF C2, 2 AW RCR123__medium_______74.6____10 sec_______,
Diamond Dragon___________Mag 4C cell__________high_________317.8__,__0 sec_______,
Diamond Dragon___________Mag 4C cell__________high_________295.5__,__2 sec_______,
Diamond Dragon___________Mag 4C cell__________high_________242.6__,_30 sec_______,
Diamond Dragon___________Mag 4C cell__________high_________229.0__,_60 sec_______,
Diamond Dragon___________Mag 4C cell__________high_________223.6__,_90 sec_______,
Diamond Dragon___________Mag 4C cell__________high_________223.2,__120 sec_______,
Diamond Dragon___________Mag 4C cell__________high_________223.7,__150 sec_______,
Diamond Dragon___________Mag 4C cell__________high_________225.4,__180 sec_______,
Diamond Dragon___________Mag 4C cell__________high_________226.0,__240 sec_______,
Diamond Dragon___________Mag 4C cell__________high_________227.5,__300 sec_______,
Eagletac T10C2_________,__2 AW RCR123________high_________248.2,____3 sec_______,
Eagletac T10C2_________,__2 AW RCR123________high_________229.5,___30 sec_______,
Eagletac T10C2_________,__2 AW RCR123________high_________228.0,___60 sec_______,
Eagletac T10C2_________,__2 AW RCR123________low,__________54.6,___10 sec_______,
Fenix LD20 Q5_________,__2 Alkaline AA_________high_________163.2,____3 sec_______,
Fenix LD20 Q5_________,__2 Alkaline AA_________high_________158.5,___30 sec_______,
Fenix LD20 Q5_________,__2 Alkaline AA_________high_________157.9,___60 sec_______,
Fenix T1_______________,__2 CR123 Primaries____high_________208.4,___10 sec_______,
Fenix T1_______________,__2 CR123 Primaries____low,__________46.0,___10 sec_______,
Fenix TA30____________,__3 CR123 Primaries_____high_________194.6,____3 sec_______,
Fenix TA30____________,__3 CR123 Primaries_____high_________191.4,___30 sec_______,
Fenix TA30____________,__3 CR123 Primaries_____high_________189.9,___60 sec_______,
Fenix TA30____________,__3 CR123 Primaries_____high_________189.0,__120 sec_______,
Fenix TA30____________,__3 CR123 Primaries_____medium_______42.6,___60 sec_______,
Fenix TA30____________,__3 CR123 Primaries_____low,___________7.3,___60 sec_______,
Fenix_TA30______________2X17500____________high_________189.1____1 sec
Fenix_TA30______________2X17500____________high_________186.4___10 sec
Fenix_TA30______________2X17500____________high_________185.8___30 sec
Fenix_TA30______________2X17500____________high_________185.5___60 sec
Fenix_TA30______________2X17500____________high_________185.4__120 sec
Fenix_TA30______________2X17500____________high_________185.2__180 sec
Fenix_TA30______________2X17500____________med__________41.9___stable
Fenix_TA30______________2X17500____________low____________7.1___stable
Fenix TK11____________,__2 CR123 Primaries_____high_________221.7,___10 sec_______,
Inova Blue LED_________,__Keychain lite________________________1.16_,_10 sec_0.115L ref.
Inova X5 Green_________,__2 CR123 Primaries__________________15.0____10 sec_14.0L ref.
Lumens Factory_ES-9____,__Solarforce AR Glass____Incan________130.5_____3 sec_______,
Lumens Factory_ES-9____,__Solarforce AR Glass____Incan________124.9____30 sec_______,
Lumens Factory_ES-9____,__Solarforce AR Glass____Incan________123.7____60 sec_______,
SureFire P91_____________UCL in SureFire 6P_____2XAW17670,_466.0_____1 sec______,
SureFire P91_____________Solarforce w/AR Glass__2XIMR18650__473.4_____1 sec
SureFire P91_____________Solarforce w/AR Glass__2XIMR18650__445.3____10 sec
SureFire P91_____________Solarforce w/AR Glass__2XIMR18650__411.2____30 sec
SureFire P91_____________Solarforce w/AR Glass__2XIMR18650__396.4____60 sec
SureFire P91_____________Solarforce w/AR Glass__2XIMR18650__381.7___120 sec
SureFire P91_____________Solarforce w/AR Glass__2XIMR18650__383.1___180 sec
SureFire P90_____________Solarforce w/AR Glass__2XIMR18650__142.0_____1 sec
SureFire P90_____________Solarforce w/AR Glass__2XIMR18650__138.2____20 sec
SureFire P90_____________Solarforce w/AR Glass__2XIMR18650__137.1____30 sec
SureFire P90_____________Solarforce w/AR Glass__2XIMR18650__130.6____60 sec
SureFire P90_____________Solarforce w/AR Glass__2XIMR18650__118.3___120 sec
SureFire P90_____________Solarforce w/AR Glass__2XIMR18650__112.4___180 sec
Maglight "3Watt" LED____,__4 D Rayovac Hybrids,________________74.8__,___3 sec_______,
Maglight "3Watt" LED____,__4 D Rayovac Hybrids,________________71.0__,__10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30___________,__Solar, AR Glass______1X_18650_____229.7__,___3 sec_______,
Malkoff M30___________,__Solar, AR Glass______1X_18650_____219.4__,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff M30___________,__Solar, AR Glass______1X_18650_____216.8__,__60 sec_______,
Malkoff M30___________,__Solar, AR Glass______2.82VDC______149.3__,__10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30___________,__Solar, AR Glass______3.05VDC______157.6__,__10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30___________,__Solar, AR Glass______3.61VDC______198.1__,__10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30___________,__Solar, AR Glass______3.83VDC______215.9__,__10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30___________,__Solar, AR Glass______3.95VDC______221.5__,__10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30___________,__Solar, AR Glass______4.27VDC______250.5__,__10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30___________,__Solar, AR Glass______4.77VDC______280.4__,__10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30___________,__Solar, AR Glass______4.89VDC______269.3__,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 (BC's)_____,__Malkoff_MD2 no glass______________214.4__,___3 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 (BC's)_____,__Malkoff_MD2 no glass______________195.7__,__60 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 (BC's)_____,__SF AR glass_______________________218.9__,___3 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 (BC's)_____,__SF AR glass_______________________204.5__,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 (BC's)_____,__SF No bezel_______________________233.5__,___3 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 (BC's)_____,__SF No bezel_______________________219.4__,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123s__High___242.3_____instant peak__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123s__High___227.2_____1 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123s__High___208.0____30 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123s__High___204.9____60 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123s__High___201.8___120 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123s__High___200.9___240 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123___Low____18.2___240 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri,____High___229.1_____instant peak__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri,____High___217.8_____1 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri,____High___204.4____30 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri,____High___202.7____60 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri,____High___201.8___120 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri,____High___201.6___240 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri_____Low____11.8___240 sec__,
MrGman's newest 2 mode Torch: Works great, beautiful camo green finish, high/low mode is flawless.

Malkoff MC-E__________,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________495.3__,___3 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E__________,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________465.4__,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E__________,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________457.9__,__60 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E_W_______,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________420.6__,___3 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E_W_______,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________403.7__,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E_W_______,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________403.7__,__60 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E_W_______,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________398.1__,__90 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E_W_______,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________396.3__,_120 sec_______,
Malkoff Single for Mag__,__3 C cell Maglight,___________________205.6__,___3 sec_______,
Malkoff Single for Mag__,__3 C cell Maglight,___________________178.9__,__60 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop_____,__Maglight AR glass,__________________680.4__,___3 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop_____,__Maglight AR glass,__________________611.2__,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop_____,__Maglight AR glass,__________________586.9__,__60 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop_____,__Maglight AR glass,__________________573.8__,__90 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop_____,__Maglight AR glass,__________________562.6__,_120 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop_____,__Maglight AR glass,__________________555.1__,_150 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop_____,__Maglight AR glass,__________________545.8__,_180 sec_______,
MTE SSC P7___________,__1-IMR 18650,_____________________478.5__,___3 sec_______,
MTE SSC P7___________,__1-IMR 18650,_____________________416.8__,__30 sec_______,
MTE SSC P7___________,__1-IMR 18650,_____________________471.0__,__60 sec_______,
MTE SSC P7___________,__1-IMR 18650,_____________________467.3__,_120 sec_______,
MTE SSC P7___________,__1-IMR 18650,_____________________422.4__,_180 sec_______,
MTE SSC P7___________,__1-IMR 18650,_____________________390.7__,_240 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2___,__1D Mag__1-IMR18650__Aspheric,_____168.6______3 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2___,__1D Mag__1-IMR18650__Aspheric,_____126.9_____15 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2___,__1D Mag__1-IMR18650__Aspheric,_____126.0_____30 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2___,__1D Mag__1-IMR18650__Aspheric,_____125.6_____45 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2___,__1D Mag__1-IMR18650__Aspheric,_____125.4_____60 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2___,__1D Mag__1-IMR18650__Reflector_____235.0______3 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2___,__1D Mag__1-IMR18650__Reflector_____181.3_____15 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2___,__1D Mag__1-IMR18650__Reflector_____180.6_____30 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2___,__1D Mag__1-IMR18650__Reflector_____180.4_____45 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2___,__1D Mag__1-IMR18650__Reflector_____180.4_____60 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__1D Mag, IMR 18650________________710.3______0 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__1D Mag, IMR 18650________________659.8_____15 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__1D Mag, IMR 18650________________639.3_____30 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__1D Mag, IMR 18650________________628.0_____45 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__1D Mag, IMR 18650________________620.6_____60 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__1D Mag, IMR 18650________________615.0_____75 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__1D Mag, IMR 18650________________611.2_____90 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__1D Mag, IMR 18650________________607.5____105 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__1D Mag, IMR 18650________________603.7____120 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__1D Mag, IMR 18650________________598.1____150 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__1D Mag, IMR 18650________________592.5____180 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__2D mag, with 3NiMH__3 C Tenergy,____878.5______0 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__2D mag, with 3NiMH__3 C Tenergy,____760.7_____15 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__2D mag, with 3NiMH__3 C Tenergy,____742.1_____30 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__2D mag, with 3NiMH__3 C Tenergy.____732.7_____45 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__2D mag, with 3NiMH__3 C Tenergy,____725.2_____60 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__2D mag, with 3NiMH__3 C Tenergy.____719.6_____75 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__2D mag, with 3NiMH__3 C Tenergy,____714.0_____90 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__2D mag, with 3NiMH__3 C Tenergy,____710.3____105 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__2D mag, with 3NiMH__3 C Tenergy,____704.7____120 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__2D mag, with 3NiMH__3 C Tenergy,____697.2____150 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__2D mag, with 3NiMH__3 C Tenergy,____691.6____180 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__3D NiMH_____________Tenergy_____790.7______0 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__3D NiMH_____________Tenergy_____734.6_____30 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__3D NiMH_____________Tenergy_____719.6_____60 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__3D NiMH_____________Tenergy_____702.8____120 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__3D NiMH_____________Tenergy_____689.7____180 sec_______,
Nailbender P7_D26 Mod__,__Fivemega 3C_________3 C Tenergy,___547.7______3 sec_______,
Nailbender P7_D26 Mod__,__Fivemega 3C_________3 C Tenergy,___459.8_____30 sec_______,
Nailbender P7_D26 Mod__,__Fivemega 3C_________3 C Tenergy,___441.1_____60 sec_______,
Nailbender P7_D26 Mod__,__Fivemega 3C_________3 C Tenergy,___422.4____120 sec_______,
Nailbender P7_D26 Mod__,__Fivemega 3C_________3 C Tenergy,___409.3____180 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__Solar, AR Glass_______1X18650,_____360.0______3 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__Solar, AR Glass_______2 CR123 Pri___450.5______3 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__Solar, AR Glass_______3.0VDC,_______66.7______3 sec_______,
Nailbender P7__________,__Solar, AR Glass_______4.75VDC,_____695.3______3 sec_overdriven,
NeoFab Legion II_______,__3X_18650____________level 1 Low,____83.7_____30 sec_______,
NeoFab Legion II_______,__3X_18650____________level 2 Low,___132.7_____30 sec_______,
NeoFab Legion II_______,__3X_18650____________level 3 med,___215.7_____30 sec_______,
NeoFab Legion II_______,__3X_18650____________level 4 high,___372.5_____30 sec_______,
NeoFab Legion II_______,__3X_18650____________level 5 turbo,__616.8______3 sec_______,
NeoFab Legion II_______,__3X_18650____________level 5 turbo,__609.3_____30 sec_______,
NeoFab Legion II_______,__3X_18650____________level 5 turbo,__607.5_____60 sec_______,
NeoFab Legion II_______,__3X_18650____________level 5 turbo,__603.7____120 sec_______,
NeoFab Legion II_______,__3X_18650____________level 5 turbo,__600.0____180 sec_______,
SF E2DL______________,__2 CR123 Primaries____high,_________221.9______3 sec_______,
SF E2DL______________,__2 CR123 Primaries____low____________8.6_____10 sec_______,
SF M6 Host, WA1185___,__3X_AW17670________Incandescent___1061.7,_____3 sec_______,
SF M6 Host, WA1185___,__3X_AW17670________Incandescent____973.8,____30 sec_______,
SF M6 Host, WA1185___,__3X_AW17670________Incandescent____917.8,____60 sec_______,
SF M6 Host, WA1185___,__3X_AW17670________Incandescent____878.5,___120 sec_______,
SF M6 Host, WA1185___,__3X_AW17670________Incandescent____880.4,___180 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_______,__2X_AW18650________high_________654.2______3 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_______,__2X_AW18650________high_________596.3_____30 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_______,__2X_AW18650________high_________585.0_____60 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_______,__2X_AW18650________high_________575.7____120 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_______,__2X_AW18650________high_________562.6____150 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_______,__2X_AW18650________high_________558.9____180 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_______,__2X_AW18650________low__________361.3,_____3 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_______,__2X_AW18650________low__________346.7,____30 sec_______,
Solarforce R2__________,__Surefire C2,_______________________143.9______3 sec________,
Solarforce UV D26 Mod__,__Solarforce L2 host,,___________________0.9_____10 sec_0.46 L ref.
Streamlight_TLR-1_Rail Mount_2X_CR123,_____________________159.8______1 sec
Streamlight_TLR-1_Rail Mount_2X_CR123,_____________________159.2______5 sec
Streamlight_TLR-1_Rail Mount_2X_CR123,_____________________147.9_____30 sec
Streamlight_TLR-1_Rail Mount_2X_CR123,_____________________145.7_____60 sec
Streamlight_TLR-1_Rail Mount_2X_CR123,_____________________146.4____120 sec

Terralux 3C2AAEX_____,__2AA Alkalines______________________143.9______3 sec_______,
Terralux 3C2AAEX_____,__2AA Alkalines_______________________17.9______3 sec_______,
Terralux 3C2AAEX_____,__2AA Rayovac Hybrids,________________145.0______3 sec_______,
Terralux 3C2AAEX_____,__2AA Rayovac Hybrids,_________________17.9______3 sec_______,
Tiablo A10_____________,__2 CR123 pri__________single mode___247.1______3 sec_______,
Tiablo A10_____________,__2 CR123 pri__________single mode___229.5_____30 sec_______,
Tiablo A10_____________,__2 CR123 pri__________single mode___228.4_____60 sec_______,
Tomahawk_____________,__2 CR123 pri__________high,_________157.0______3 sec_______,
Tomahawk_____________,__2 CR123 pri__________high,_________151.4_____30 sec_______,
Zep-5R2-SF M6 Host____,__3X_AW17670________5 Aspheric R2's_474.8______3 sec_______,
Zep-5R2-SF M6 Host____,__3X_AW17670________5 Cree R2's____863.6______3 sec_______,
Zep-5R2-SF M6 Host____,__3X_AW17670________5 Cree R2's____856.1_____15 sec_______,
Zep-5R2-SF M6 Host____,__3X_AW17670________5 Cree R2's____854.2_____30 sec_______,
Zep-5R2-SF M6 Host____,__3X_AW17670________5 Cree R2's____852.3_____45 sec_______,
Zep-5R2-SF M6 Host____,__3X_AW17670________5 Cree R2's____850.5_____60 sec_______,
Zep-5R2-SF M6 Host____,__3X_AW17670________5 Cree R2's____848.6_____90 sec_______,
Zep-5R2-SF M6 Host____,__3X_AW17670________5 Cree R2's____846.7____120 sec_______,
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1714.5______instant peak_:bow:
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1698.2______2 sec_:wow:
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1606.5_____30 sec_
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1565.1_____60 sec_
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1523.7____120 sec_:mecry:
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1498.5____240 sec_


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## MrGman (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Video Link compository. More will be added as the weather is getting better. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1MGK4KD_VU

Video Comparison of SF E2DL to Dereelight 3SM R2 pill with smooth reflector to targets at about 53 feet. Camera is closer than I am with flashlight to make for a better clearere video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YXTKvi_oEo

Video comparison of the SF E2DL versus the Dereelight [email protected] Q5 pill with OP reflector in the same manner as above video. 

video clip comparing the EagleTac T10C2 to Fenix T1, Malkoff M60 in Solarforce L2 host and the Solarforce R2 single mode also in Solarforce L2 host. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekYAB9qsiq4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vrfBwZuN2k 

*Video comparing several mega flashlights like the LED Zeppelin triple P7 at 1700 lumens and others. Malkoff MC-E Warm and Neutral tints, and more.* 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqezZFmo13I

This is a recent video in the new backyard which is deeper comparing various lights shown before. I am using my newer Digital camera in video mode which is actually much better than the digital Video Camera I tried out in the last video, clearer, and better gain. This really shows the various flashlights in all their photonic glory. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84QF_8IHCAY

This is a new video inside the house comparing the new Malkoff MD4 Wildcat to the Solarforce L900M and various other flashlights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snY_QRBaf0w

This is my latest indoor video. Been working on it for a while. I will just let it be a surprise and you tell me how you like it. G. 

All of my videos can be found by simply searching for MrGman9999 on Youtube.com. As I add more they will all be under that name and can be found. There are currently 20.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=MrGman9999&search_type=&aq=f
___________________________________________________________________________

*Links to other threads with work and pictures of various flashlights I have done comparison work on.* 


https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/205842&highlight=Malkoff+Triple+Drop

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157617408605639/show/

Images of Integration sphere. Not much to look at but I think it will work great. 


http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157618727701679/show/

*Beamshots in backyard of numerous relatively high power LED lights. Malkoff MCE cool and Warm and Solarforce L900M and others in a running slide show.* 

_________________________________________________________________________________


MCE-Cool-----This is with a fan running but the unit is warmed up so the turn on peak readings up to 500 lumens will not be seen. Shows the regulation control in the driver chip. 
Volts----------Amps-----watts-----lumens
4.53______0.35_____1.59____130.1
4.74______1.21_____5.72____349.0
5.06______1.76_____8.93____445.7
5.26______1.70_____8.92____430.5
5.51______1.76_____9.69____453.3
5.77______1.71_____9.84____445.7
5.98______1.66_____9.95____451.4
6.28______1.58_____9.93____447.6
6.54______1.48_____9.70____443.8
6.74______1.44_____9.72____443.8
7.02______1.38_____9.68____443.8
7.22______1.26_____9.12____449.5
7.51______1.21_____9.08____449.5
7.76______1.16_____9.04____449.5
8.01______1.12_____9.00____445.7
8.25______1.09_____8.99____445.7
8.48______1.06_____8.96____443.8
8.66______1.04_____8.99____449.5
8.82______1.02_____9.03____443.8
9.05______1.00_____9.01____443.8
9.27______0.97_____9.00____443.8
9.52______0.94_____8.95____443.8
9.94______0.91_____9.02____443.8


MCE-Warm--------- Regulation starts at about 5VDC, If you wanted to make this a "two mode" module you would have to use a resistor to drop the voltage and more importantly limit current below 1 amp, something in the 500 ma range and less than 4.75V. 
Volts____Amps___watts___Lumens___
4.52____0.36_____1.63____110.3____
4.75____1.04_____4.93____272.6____
4.99____1.89_____9.44____400.4____
5.48____1.77_____9.71____390.8____
5.75____1.69_____9.70____394.7____
6.03____1.53_____9.23____394.7____
6.50____1.49_____9.71____398.5____
6.75____1.35_____9.14____396.6____
6.99____1.29_____9.03____394.7____
7.54____1.19_____8.98____390.8____
7.75____1.15_____8.89____388.9____
8.02____1.10_____8.85____387.0____
8.32____1.06_____8.86____387.0____
8.54____1.04_____8.87____388.9____
8.67____1.02_____8.88____387.0____
9.04____0.98_____8.83____387.0____
9.24____0.96_____8.84____387.0____
9.52____0.93_____8.86____387.0____
9.75____0.91_____8.87____387.0____
10.02___0.89_____8.87____385.0____

M30 on a regulated power supply at various voltages and the current draw there of.
1.5V 0.84A 1.26W-----
2.0V 0.88A 1.76W-----
3.0V 0.97A 2.91W------
3.2V 1.00A 3.20W 
3.6V 1.10A 3.96W-----
4.0V 1.29A 5.16W-----
4.2V 1.42A 5.96W------
4.5V 1.60A 7.20W
5.0V 1.89A 9.45W

M60__from Regulated power supply,
Volts___amps___watts______,
3.0_____0.09____0.27__,
3.2_____0.22____0.70__,
3.5_____0.38____1.33__,
3.6_____0.51____1.84__,
3.8_____0.66____2.51__,
4.0_____0.86____3.44__,
4.2_____1.08____4.54__,
4.5_____0.85____3.83__,
4.7_____0.88____4.14__,
5.0_____0.80____4.00__,
5.5_____0.74____4.07__,
6.0_____0.69____4.14__,
7.0_____0.60____4.20__,
7.9_____0.56____4.42__,
8.0_____0.53____4.24__,
8.4_____0.50____4.20__,
8.5_____0.49____4.17__,
9.0_____0.47____4.23__,
9.5_____0.45____4.28__,

MalkoffTriple Drop_____________,
Cells___Volts___Amps___Watts__,
4C_____4.96____2.97____14.7__,
3C_____3.54____3.57____12.6__,
2C_____2.20____2.80_____6.2__,
1C_____1.10____1.97_____2.2__,

The TNVC at 6.0V draws 0.64A, 3.84 Watt, at 9.0V it was drawing 0.45A, 4.05watts.

Dereelight 3 mode R2 pill (on high) at 6V it drew 1.0A at 10V (rated to 13V) it drew 0.6A. And had a linear reduction of current draw in between. So that's a constant 6 watts from the power source. 

Mr G Man. :wave:


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## sygyzy (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

MrGman, what is the process of calibrating a lux meter to known readings? I want to figure out some formula (multiplier) to tie in together known lumens values (your data) and the lux values produced by my lightbox, using the same light (models).


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## Superdave (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sygyzy said:


> MrGman, what is the process of calibrating a lux meter to known readings? I want to figure out some formula (multiplier) to tie in together known lumens values (your data) and the lux values produced by my lightbox, using the same light (models).




if it were only that easy.. I've been trying to use his posted values to project lumen values based on lux readings from my sphere. I can get close but i need to get a thicker coating inside because the brighter the light the further off the values are. 

His 6PL measured 82 lumens, mine measured 84.. but his E2DL measured 203 and ours measured 166. 

I divided lux by his posted lumen values, then used that factor. For my setup it was 16.3. so 1362 lux / 16.3 = 84 (rounded up)


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## MrGman (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sygyzy said:


> MrGman, what is the process of calibrating a lux meter to known readings? I want to figure out some formula (multiplier) to tie in together known lumens values (your data) and the lux values produced by my lightbox, using the same light (models).


 

I am not going to calibrate the lux meter to the sphere to use it to take "lumens" readings at home. I am going to calibrate it to a very high resolution fully calibrated spectral radiometer that takes lux readings just so that it is truly "calibrated". So that when I say it reads 10,357 lux, that's what it actually is. wbp, has the same type of lux meter he recommended I buy and had to calibrate it, by literally open it up in the back and tweak the pots to bring it into alignment with his $9,000 spectral radiometer unit. 

there is no way to calibrate a spot lux meter to read lumens by itself. need to have a full integration sphere and nothing but a sphere. No boxes, no ceiling bounce. Has to be a high reflective sphere to collect all light and send it to the sensor port. 

So I won't be using this to take lumens readings at home. Just want to do some spot lux work of my own.


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## wbp (Apr 16, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Reserved for me (per Gman's instructions)


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## wbp (Apr 16, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sygyzy said:


> MrGman, what is the process of calibrating a lux meter to known readings?



We are working on an "affordable" lumen measurement system. I have been testing polystyrene balls as integrating spheres, and more recently I found another type of ball that appears to work quite well. This plus a $175 meter, PLUS an accurate reference source, I believe will allow you to measure lumens with at least 10%, if not much better, accuracy as long as you don't exceed the limits of such a system.

The key here is the accurate measurement of a known stable reference. This is not cheap. Labs charge $750 and up to do this type of work.

I'm willing to make this type of system available to people here if I can recover some of my costs. Now that my taxes are filed, I am going to take some pictures of the new system and start a new thread on this topic.

William


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## Art Vandelay (Apr 16, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*


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## TexLite (Apr 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> So fellow CPF's feel free to post comments and replies as necessary underneath this as I add more test data and videos, now that I have reserved these 2 spots. Mr G Man. :wave:



Great work as always Mr G, looking forward to round II! 



wbp said:


> We are working on an "affordable" lumen measurement system. I have been testing polystyrene balls as integrating spheres, and more recently I found another type of ball that appears to work quite well. This plus a $175 meter, PLUS an accurate reference source, I believe will allow you to measure lumens with at least 10%, if not much better, accuracy as long as you don't exceed the limits of such a system.
> 
> The key here is the accurate measurement of a known stable reference. This is not cheap. Labs charge $750 and up to do this type of work.
> 
> ...



I will be following this with great interest. I built a lightbox some time ago and Gary was kind enough (Thanks again Gary) to test some lights of mine so I could get an accurate reference source. I've since upgraded my light meter to an Extech 407026 with PC interface and I"m planning on building a styrofoam sphere like precisionworks' for increased (hopefully) accuracy.

Thanks again MrGman and wbp for all the hard work.

-Michael


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## sygyzy (Apr 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



wbp said:


> We are working on an "affordable" lumen measurement system. I have been testing polystyrene balls as integrating spheres, and more recently I found another type of ball that appears to work quite well. This plus a $175 meter, PLUS an accurate reference source, I believe will allow you to measure lumens with at least 10%, if not much better, accuracy as long as you don't exceed the limits of such a system.
> 
> The key here is the accurate measurement of a known stable reference. This is not cheap. Labs charge $750 and up to do this type of work.
> 
> ...



Can you please share with us which luxmeter you recommend?


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## wbp (Apr 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sygyzy said:


> Can you please share with us which luxmeter you recommend?



It's hard to make specific recommendations since I cannot test all possible meters. Of the 3 that I have tried, I am using the AEMC CA813. The Extech 407026 that Texlite refers to looks very interesting as well but I do not have one.

If you want to take accurate lux readings then you need a meter that has been calibrated. Unless things have changed that's not so easy. Many of the vendors offer "NIST" options but when I paid for this it turned out to be a waste of money. I have VERY accurate instrumentation here and when I checked the so-called "NIST Traceable calibrated" meters they were off by 15% or more, completely unacceptable. In one case I contacted the vendor and they refered me to the lab they sent the meter to for calibration. I called them and asked to speak to the person that had done the calibration. After a bit of back and forth they admitted that this person was out on extended sick leave and they had simply issued the certificate in his absence and sent the meter on its way. I tried to get a refund from the vendor but was never sucessful.

However, none of this matters if you want to take lumen measurements with a sphere. In that case you need to calibrate the entire system, not the meter. What this means is you need a known reference source of the same or similar spectral output to what you want to measure. Until recently this cost upward of $1k, but we now have a small number of very well regulated and stable LED lights available to us. My current reference lights are is a NeoFab Spartanian 2 and Legion 2. The S2 is small enough to be measured by both MrGman's Labsphere system and my own, and it is both stable and repeatable to better than 1%.

If you want the most accuracy you build a sphere with 3 ports: 1 for the meter, one for the source to be measured, and one for the reference light, all at 90 degrees from each other. The source is inserted but not turned on, and a calibration is done with the reference light. Then the reference light is turned off but left in place and the source is turned on and measured. This helps compensate for the difference in the source's reflector, size, bezel, etc.

However, for our purposes I think we can achieve good enough accuracy with only 2 ports.

To be able to measure lights with lens/bezel up to 3 inches in diameter the sphere must be of sufficient size. There is a generally accepted formula for this but without doing the math I'd say at least 12" ID, perhaps larger.

To be truly accurate the sphere must be a perfect (or nearly sp) reflector. This gets very expensive very fast. However, we are not measuring laser output. For flashlights such as we are interested in here, as long as the beam is not too focused, our experiments have shown that we can measure the output quite well with a polystyrene foam or perhaps even ABS plastic sphere.

Time to take some pictures of our latest I-Sphere project and start a new thread on this... 

William


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## sygyzy (Apr 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Even at twice the cost of the LM631, I think the AEMC CA813 at $175 is still affordable and obviously much cheaper than a real IS. With that said, if I am understanding correctly, you are working on developing a system, *that can be replicated*, which will give the home flashlight enthusiast a fairly accurate way of measuring lux (or is it lumens)?

I hope you document this process well. Imagine, CPF Turnkey Integration Sphere's .....


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## wbp (Apr 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sygyzy said:


> With that said, if I am understanding correctly, you are working on developing a system, *that can be replicated*, which will give the home flashlight enthusiast a fairly accurate way of measuring lux (or is it lumens)?



Lumens, not lux. If you want to measure lux accurately you'll need to have the meter calibrated. That's not trivial. My reference instrument is an Orb Optronix Sp-100 spectroradiomter, current cost about $8500. It gets checked monthly against a Hoffman LS65 8C, another $2500 or so...


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## sygyzy (Apr 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I will follow this with keen interest. Once you figure out things with the sphere, I'll go ahead and order the CA813. Does it allow the user to adjust it, like with a pot or something? Very exciting.


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## wbp (Apr 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sygyzy said:


> I will follow this with keen interest. Once you figure out things with the sphere, I'll go ahead and order the CA813. Does it allow the user to adjust it, like with a pot or something? Very exciting.



I don't think you would want to attempt this - how would you go about adjusting it? Do you have the equipment for this?

I had not intended to take over MrGman's thread with this discussion - sorry!


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## jzmtl (Apr 18, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Has something like this been done yet? Use a light such as fenix T1, crank off the head so there is no reflector/glass and see what's the bare LED's output. Compare that with with head on, and see what is today's LED out front efficiency with the high quality reflector/coated glass, compare with the 0.65 determined with old incan lights.


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## sygyzy (Apr 18, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



wbp said:


> I don't think you would want to attempt this - how would you go about adjusting it? Do you have the equipment for this?
> 
> I had not intended to take over MrGman's thread with this discussion - sorry!



If I used the exact sphere as you and picked up a light that is consistent and used the same meter. Couldn't I put the light and meter in the box then read the number then ask you what the "right" reading should be (since you calibrated it). Then I assume in the back of the meter, I could adjust it?

Sorry if I misunderstood.


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## MrGman (Apr 18, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

In theory that is correct. The reference control light that probably will work the best is the Spartanian II. However patience in this case is a good virtue. wbp and I are working together to find and make an easy to build and use system set up. Since we both work for a living and this is not our sole purpose in life it takes time. However the goal is to make sure the system will be accurate enough to share the data with all by publishing it in both this and his upcoming thread so that all CPF'ers can do the same thing.

So don't rush out to spend money just yet, we are getting closer. G


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## wbp (Apr 18, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sygyzy said:


> If I used the exact sphere as you and picked up a light that is consistent and used the same meter. Couldn't I put the light and meter in the box then read the number then ask you what the "right" reading should be (since you calibrated it). Then I assume in the back of the meter, I could adjust it?
> 
> Sorry if I misunderstood.



No two spheres are going to be *exactly* the same; even a pro IS is sold with calibration or some provision for calibrating it in the field. Ask Gman how often his company's IS goes back for re-cal.

To measure lumens you don't need to adjust the meter. All you need is the correction factor for your meter and sphere system to put in your spread sheet.

Even with the same brand and model of light there is still variation in output due to the LED variation. If you want to measure lux accurately you have to have the meter calibrated. I can do this but it takes time and expertise I have had to develop, and often components have to be changed as well.

Don't forget - I've got $$$$$ invested in test equipment that allows me to do this. I want to help you guys out as much as I can, but I can't afford to give it away either. I would like to (need to) recover some of my costs... I think if enough people are interested in doing this then we can come up with something that is both reasonably accurate and reasonably affordable.


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## MrGman (Apr 21, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Okay I am in the mood to test more lights. I haven't seen the local guys with the Surefire E1b whatever models since last year so for all the E1B fans out there who want one tested, some one private message me for shipping directions and instructions if you want them tested. If there are different versions send them.

Try not to use to much post space just going back and forth on what to send, PM me.

Other Surefire lights are welcome. I did test and post the "CPF control A2" with a steady 65 lumens. 

Any of the smaller 1 CR123A or 1AA that is not a complicated programmable light would be fine. But I know a lot of guys have been wanting the E1B tested, so bring it. G.


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## SilverFox (Apr 21, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Hello Gary,

I was unable to find the value for the SureFire A2 LED's. What color are they and did you measure them?

Tom


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## MrGman (Apr 21, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



SilverFox said:


> Hello Gary,
> 
> I was unable to find the value for the SureFire A2 LED's. What color are they and did you measure them?
> 
> Tom


 
The A2 I measured was the center incandescent unit only. It was the one you sent(?). No LEDs were installed, they had been removed. Did I call it by the wrong name?


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## SilverFox (Apr 21, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Hello Gary,

You should note that when the LED's are removed, the lumen value goes up. Simply state that it is the CPF Benchmarking A2 and that should cover it. It is not representative of the off the shelf A2 because it has the LED's removed.

Tom


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## cy (Apr 21, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

just found this thread... been awhile since I've cruised new posts...
nice work!


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## MrGman (Apr 27, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Just a quick update. wbp and I both now have 16 inch inner diameter stryofoam (polystyrene) spheres. I also have the same CA813 portable meter he has (yet to be cal'ed to his). We can now both take in 3 inch diameter head LED light sources to do testing for total lumens. We both have several calibrated flashlights I have tested in the Integration Sphere system at work. So now the fun begins in looking at all the larger lights and see how they track to the smaller ones and to each other all measured in the same sphere system. 

wbp's testing has shown that of all the home made materials one would want to try including some highly reflective type paints, the polystyrene sphere as is works best. Stay tuned for future updates. G


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## Superdave (Apr 28, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I'll have to pick up one of these styrofoam spheres. My setup met with an unfortunate accident at work and got tossed. 


Any pics of the new rig?


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## MrGman (Apr 29, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I have posted lumens numbers for a SureFire E1B for all the E1B fans out there. Its a [email protected] model if that means anything to anyone. At least thats what the markings look like on the side of the head. Pretty handy light.

I have also been publishing the power draw numbers for the Malkoff MCE- warm and cool versions, Malkoff Triple Drop and M30 and M60 for you guys who want to try and run them with different battery configurations.

I will at some future point in time try and put the power draw and the lumens outputs together. I don't have a big enough DC power supply at home to supply the high current at low volts that I need just yet.

However I will say this with my new home made Integration Sphere which appears to be working very well. the Malkoff Triple drop is only in the 680 lumen range and its consuming very close to 15 watts of power (with some loss at the regulator) to do it.

The Solarforce L900M is in the 670 Lumen range and its drawing somewhere in the 14 to 15 watt range to do it. Mine draws 1.9A from 2X18650 to reach full power. 

Eventually I will add a posting of all my readings from the 16" homemade integration sphere system. Still needs more fine tuning and testing.

Haven't had any time to take pics of it yet. Nothing special to look at. From the outside its just an 18 inch white styrofoam ball with a 3 inch hole on the side and the 1 inch hole on the top covered with the light sensor from the AEMC CA813 meter. I left it sitting in the cardboard box it came in for support and simply cut a 4 inch hole in that to allow access to the entry port. I am using several of the lights I measured at work on the real IS system as my calibration control units. 

Just as another point of refence we took bigchelis' "Nailbender P7" that was actually measured in my new 16" sphere system at 456 lumens (meausred 460 in the real IS) and drove it with a megabattery pack through a series of resistors. I lowered the resistors in series until I got it up to 4.75V across the LED module. Output jumped up to what we calculated to be in the 689 lumen range. Current draw was not measured but I know from previous measurements it had to be over 3 amps. Point is in order to get that P7 unit up into the same type of "through the glass, out the front" output range of the other lights in that output class, it also had to be in the 15 watt power consumption range. And it was getting very hot very quickly even inside the flashlight host with only the rear tailcap removed to allow the jumper wires inside. 

These discount P7 or MC-E lights that fit into a normal 6P type host and run off of 1X18650 class battery are never going to reach 700 OTF lumens because they don't have the drive power to do it and don't have the heat sinking to sustain it if they did. The ones with massive heatsinks, 2X18650 or more will begin to reach that as OTF lumens, with the die actually hitting 900 lumens or more and the typical losses through reflector and glass. 

As always more to come at a later date.


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## wbp (Apr 29, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Superdave said:


> I'll have to pick up one of these styrofoam spheres. My setup met with an unfortunate accident at work and got tossed.
> Any pics of the new rig?



Here's where to get the 18" (OD) sphere we are now using:
http://www.barnardltd.com/product.jsp?prodId=1878&catId=

Pictures coming soon! (we hope)


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## polkiuj (Apr 29, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

MrG, what about E1B driven with a fresh RCR123 (16340)? :naughty:


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## MrGman (Apr 30, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



polkiuj said:


> MrG, what about E1B driven with a fresh RCR123 (16340)? :naughty:


 
This model belongs to some one else who is not willing to risk it and I am not going to risk some one elses light for them when they said no. If you have one that you do it to all the time and want to send it send me a PM.


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## MrGman (Apr 30, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157617408605639/show/

modest set of Integration sphere pics are up. Like I said not much to look at from the outside. You can see how well it lights up on the inside just around the port which is only 3 inches diameter.


----------



## TexLite (Apr 30, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157617408605639/show/
> 
> modest set of Integration sphere pics are up. Like I said not much to look at from the outside. You can see how well it lights up on the inside just around the port which is only 3 inches diameter.



Wow this is great. Thanks for the pics, very nice. Are you planning on starting a new thread or is it ok to continue discussion about the setup you guy's are working on here in this thread?

I'll limit my comments/questions in case you want to move the discussion...

The sphere looks great, do you guys think the 18" is the way to go?

Could you post some info about the baffle placement in relation to the access and meter port?

I know you guys are using the CA813, but the reason I chose the Extech 407026 is the PC interface, which is great for runtime graphs. The specs look similar between the two meters, and I'd be glad to send it to you MrG or wbp if you guys wanted to test it out. The reason I mention this is to make a suggestion. If anyone wanted to go with the Extech, don't buy the datalogging software and cable from the manu./dist. The cost is an additional $80.00 which could be bypassed for pennies on the dollar. The cable can be easily made up for around $10.00 with RadioShack parts and the software can be downloaded free from Extech! Had I known this before I could have saved some coin, so I just thought I'd pass it on 

Thanks,
Michael


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## MrGman (Apr 30, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I don't have the baffle in mine. Wbp has it in his half way between the 2 ports. He used the piece of foam cut out from the 3 inch port reshaped to fit the inside of the spheres curve on the bottom portion and simply stuck on with doublestick tape. We are comparing his readings of various lights to mine to see if it makes a difference. Since the units are only held together with masking tape, opening them up again to make changes is no problem. The sensor does not come all the way through the sphere wall because of the wall thickness and light cannot directly hit the sensor where it is so it kind of already has a baffle. We don't know if this is enough, but since the spheres are the same and the type of meter is the same, running all the same lights I have tested in mine versus his should give us a really good indicator as to whether or not the baffle is necessary in a sphere of this inner diameter. We will post those results soon. 

I will discuss with wbp about cross referencing to your extech meter. Send me a PM as to exactly what model it is, does it have cosine adapter and how wide is the sensor on it. My sensor port is 1 inch and I am not going to cut that wider for a different sensor type as that will change everything for my sensor. G


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## kramer5150 (Apr 30, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Just as another point of refence we took bigchelis' "Nailbender P7" that was actually measured in my new 16" sphere system at 456 lumens (meausred 460 in the real IS) and drove it with a megabattery pack through a series of resistors. I lowered the resistors in series until I got it up to 4.75V across the LED module. Output jumped up to what we calculated to be in the 689 lumen range. Current draw was not measured but I know from previous measurements it had to be over 3 amps. Point is in order to get that P7 unit up into the same type of "through the glass, out the front" output range of the other lights in that output class, it also had to be in the 15 watt power consumption range. And it was getting very hot very quickly even inside the flashlight host with only the rear tailcap removed to allow the jumper wires inside.
> 
> These discount P7 or MC-E lights that fit into a normal 6P type host and run off of 1X18650 class battery are never going to reach 700 OTF lumens because they don't have the drive power to do it and don't have the heat sinking to sustain it if they did. The ones with massive heatsinks, 2X18650 or more will begin to reach that as OTF lumens, with the die actually hitting 900 lumens or more and the typical losses through reflector and glass.
> 
> As always more to come at a later date.



I was thinking about modding a DX MC-E with a ~2.5A driver board. Is that a futile effort given the capabilities of 1x18650, and the thermal limitations of the SF-6P?

Fascinating thread.. thanks so much!!


----------



## wbp (Apr 30, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



TexLite said:


> The sphere looks great, do you guys think the 18" is the way to go?
> 
> Could you post some info about the baffle placement in relation to the access and meter port?
> 
> I know you guys are using the CA813, but the reason I chose the Extech 407026 is the PC interface, which is great for runtime graphs.



Michael,
Yes, I think the 18" (16"ID) is the way to go. You could use the 12" (10"ID) but the 18" is not that much more money and should give better accuracy.

I will open up my sphere and post pictures so you can see the baffle. I agree with MrG that it might not be necessary due to the depth of the hole for the sensor, but have some concerns that direct light from the source being tested might hit the hole and bounce, causing errors. The baffle is trivial to add so why not? It does reduce the reading slightly but not enough to be of concern.

I would be tempted by the Extech if I didn't already have an SP-100, which can easily be automated. Does Extech provide an API or activeX component to help with programming?

All of these inexpensive meters are very poorly calibrated, and that's true even if you pay for NIST certificate! We've compared several and the readings are all over the place. I don't know how they manage to make the specification claims that they do and get away with it - I guess no one is interested in taking them to task (or court) over a $200 meter.

I am curious to see the Extech so if you can spare it for a few days let's discuss offline.

william


----------



## polkiuj (May 6, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Hey MrG,

We have an interesting "discussion"  going on in another tread about the Fenix PD30. Mind testing it once and for all so we could all save our saliva (sweat and keyboards) and sleep better in the near future? =D

Thanks!
Walter

Disclaimer: Unfortunately, I don't have a PD30 and I live in Malaysia. =(

Note: I want to send my Fenix LD10 for testing as well (in the near futture, as I don't have any other lights now... yet). I fully believe it does nowhere near the claimed 120 lumens as my Inova T1 (it is being sent back for a warm tint) just kills it. But what I'm really interested in is running it with a 14500 (hehe, and I will provide it =D). What say you?


----------



## sygyzy (May 7, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I am very excited at these developments. Thank you for your plans to make it "open source."

Sorry wbp - I don't you want you to feel ripped off or that you're losing money on it. I am sure you two can come up with a solution that wuold be benefifcial the community and still allow you some income.

I am a real numbers guy and would love to get some system together to measure *lumens* (I got it now) with some reasonable accuracy.


----------



## MrGman (May 10, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



polkiuj said:


> Hey MrG,
> 
> We have an interesting "discussion"  going on in another tread about the Fenix PD30. Mind testing it once and for all so we could all save our saliva (sweat and keyboards) and sleep better in the near future? =D
> 
> ...


 

Some one in the US with the Fenix P3D or PD30 will have to step up to get it tested. I am not buying any more lights unless something really fantastic comes along. 

You didn't mention the other thread where this discussion is going on.

I wont be shipping any lights back to Malaysia. If some one in the US has an LD10 and the special rechargeable batteries that wants to see if it runs brighter and by how much they can PM me. This type of light isn't even close to the list of what I would be interested for myself but I will test it because "it needed testing". G


----------



## polkiuj (May 11, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Some one in the US with the Fenix P3D or PD30 will have to step up to get it tested. I am not buying any more lights unless something really fantastic comes along.
> 
> You didn't mention the other thread where this discussion is going on.
> 
> I wont be shipping any lights back to Malaysia. If some one in the US has an LD10 and the special rechargeable batteries that wants to see if it runs brighter and by how much they can PM me. This type of light isn't even close to the list of what I would be interested for myself but I will test it because "it needed testing". G



I guess you found it. Sorry for causing such aggravation. How about I pay both ways shipping? =D

To others: Cmon, someone who has a PD30 must be interested enough to send MrG the light. =D


----------



## KRUPPSTAHL (May 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

i have had the pleasure to visit and attend MrGman 
at one of his 5 hrs sessions, testing flashlights.
his setup and precision how he does his metering is amazing.
i brought my lights and drop- ins, they were added to the list,
and i can just imagine how many endless hours or precise work this 
priceless TRUTH IS TRUTH list has taken.

anyways, i can assure you this list tells the truth, and its not convenient 
to many.....

i want to thank Gary for this incredible database of knowledge.


----------



## bigchelis (May 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

MrGman,

Thank you once again for your services. I think many people might not realize how many hours it takes for you to get these numbers and publish them. 


Any chance of publishing the home sphere calibrated to your work sphere soon. Maybe publish it, but keep the secret ligth out Publish all, but the unspoken one.

Jose


----------



## KRUPPSTAHL (May 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

not to forget bigchelis, the guy that ownes the highly modded and impressive 
M6's.....great to have met you and being able to play with your exotic lights.

i was very impressed seeing your flashlights....and their lumensreadings.

Gary and Jose are true assets to the forum, making all this data 
and info possible.

thanks for all the efforts.


----------



## MrGman (May 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> MrGman,
> 
> Thank you once again for your services. I think many people might not realize how many hours it takes for you to get these numbers and publish them.
> 
> ...


 
I think that first we have to kick you out of the LED secret society because your brightest light was an INCAN (oh the shame of it). Yes he had an incan Surefire M6 with a WA 1185 (?) lamp that started out at 1050 plus lumens. I won't be home tonight, won't be home tomorrow night, hopefully by Saturday I will have some readings published for you. The problem is I can't get the danged SOB (*&(^*^$%^$^**^&^%$$#P) online spreadsheet to take my data correctly so I can keep it in spreadsheet form. Putting it all in their line by line is a real pain in the democrat!. It will however be done one way or another before hell freezes over. G. 

And to my new friend Kruppstahl, thanks, just remember you didn't even get to see the "real" sphere system that is at work. That's just the home brew. In order to make that one work, I had to cross calibrate it to a dozen lights that I tested at work first. G.


----------



## Calina (May 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> The problem is I can't get the danged SOB (*&(^*^$%^$^**^&^%$$#P) online spreadsheet to take my data correctly so I can keep it in spreadsheet form. Putting it all in their line by line is a real pain in the democrat!. It will however be done one way or another before hell freezes over. G.


 
For your chart maybe this thread would provide some help : 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/229791


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## MrGman (May 16, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I have sorted and posted my data from the homemade 16" Integration Sphere into what was my reserved second post of this thread. This way people can compare the 2 sets of data together. If the moderators and those who use this data are of the belief that the set of data from the 16" sphere system should have its own separate thread, let me know and we can move it. If we do move it I would like to have it stickied. The data of the 16" Sphere system will probably grow faster than that of the 6" sphere system with all of these new larger head mega lights coming out. 

Special thanks to bigchelis for bringing over numerous lights to test and additional friends from half way around the world with even more light. Special thanks to wbp for also donating lights and technical support and "consultation" to make this work. I believe these results are very useable to compare all these megalights. 

So its up there for all you guys to now start debating over.


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## Bullzeyebill (May 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

MrGman, I was wondering which Malkoff Triple you have, the 2-4 cell model , or the 4-6 cell one. Also, what brand batteries are you using in it, and how many. I have one of the 2-4 cell models, and it does not seem to perform well and I am thinking it might be my NiMh cells are underperforming.

Bill


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## MrGman (May 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Bullzeyebill, I have the 2-4 cell module I run the 5.0 Ampere/hour rated Tenergy batteries. I have to sometimes double charge them on the charger. They do take special conditioning to get them up to full power from what I am told. I have been using them for several months now. 

Here is my thread on the triple drop itself. 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/205842

I know on 4 fresh cells it draws 15 watts of power. If I run it for several minutes straight it gets hot enough to where the thermal regulation protection kicks in and it starts to blink. I shut it down and let it cool off and then I run it some more on the same batteries and it typically doesn't have the juice to do that again. The regulation is not very rigid, but it works better that way to tell you your batteries are slowly fading. G.


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## Bullzeyebill (May 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Thanks for response. You have answered my questions. I have the D cell 2-4 and have been using it with three D Tenergy's. I am using a modded reduced resistance switch, and tail cap spring, so I am pulling all that the Tenergy's can deliver to the LED's with 3D's. I also found that my Tenergy's required conditioning to improve capacity. I need to get ahold of a 4D body for those 700+ lumens. Also, I think that I will buy some Accupower LSD 10,000mAh cells and see if that also helps.

Bill


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## MrGman (May 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Bullzeyebill said:


> Thanks for response. You have answered my questions. I have the D cell 2-4 and have been using it with three D Tenergy's. I am using a modded reduced resistance switch, and tail cap spring, so I am pulling all that the Tenergy's can deliver to the LED's with 3D's. I also found that my Tenergy's required conditioning to improve capacity. I need to get ahold of a 4D body for those 700+ lumens. Also, I think that I will buy some Accupower LSD 10,000mAh cells and see if that also helps.
> 
> Bill


 
I think if you go with the higher capacity battery route then you will find it blinking out from thermal regulation more often because its really running at 15 watts for as long as the batteries can supply it. He really designed it to be around the 3 cells and 3.6V rather than 4.8V and holding steading. So you may not want to sink a lot of cash into higher capacity batteries only to find out that you don't want to use them for more than 5 minute intervals anyway. Or you live somewhere where its a lot colder and it becomes a moot point. G.


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## Marduke (May 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Is it me, or do the 16" readings seem consistently lower than the 6" readings?


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## MrGman (May 18, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Marduke said:


> Is it me, or do the 16" readings seem consistently lower than the 6" readings?


 

Most of them are lower. I didn't take any readings with bezels removed and no glass in the bigger sphere. Also I am taking readings out to the 3 minute mark which I mostly did not do on the system at work. 

However there are a few key readings that are very close or actually brighter from the bigger sphere system. I used the Lumens Factory Energy Saver 9V (ES-9) as one of my control lights. The readings of my final values with my fine tuning of the calibration factor shows this light just slightly higher in the big sphere than the smaller one. The Surefire E2DL which is a strong in its green tint is also higher in the bigger system than the smaller system. Most of the lights leaning towards a bluish tint otherwise have a lower output in the bigger system than the smaller one but some of that is allowing for real warm up times. 

I did not republish all of the repeated readings I took in the 6" sphere system that I used to help calibrate the 16" sphere system over 3 minute intervals. 

The light meter I have at home certainly does not match the exact same photopic curve as the better one at work. It definitely has one but its not going to be the exact same response as that $10K system, so rather than try to compensate for all of the different tint lights that I could have with known values and setting up separate correction factors for the blue tints versus the green tints versus the warm tints, I mostly went with what the correlation of the incandescent was, and then let all the other readings fall into place.

The sphere system at work responds faster and that "turn-on" peak reading is slightly higher which I am not going to use any more. 
So putting all these factors together and crunching the numbers the final "constant" I came up with for the measurements off the bigger system, this is what I came up with. Comparing all of those big lights, none of which so far have a green tint, side by side in the same system, I believe gives us very good relative results. 

If future data warrants it, more fine tuning of the conversion constant will be made and the numbers from the larger sphere republished.

As I take new measurements from the smaller sphere, those will be published with exact times as well. G.


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## kramer5150 (May 18, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

This thread jet keeps getting better and better... thanks Gman!!

Curious... have you under any circumstance seen a case where a smooth reflector reflects light more efficiently than an orange peel finish?

You would think a textured finish would soak/absorb more light.

:thinking:


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## bigchelis (May 18, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

MrGman,

You have the DEFT double aspheric lens system (The longest thrower in the World)?????? I saw the slide show deck and was currious if you stuck it in the home sphere yet.

FYI: I will have the 1500 lumen out the front Surefire M6 LED by Wednesday. It is the M6 LED drop-in made by LED Zepplin and it uses 3 P7's regulated. Dennis (the builder) thinks it is 2200 Lumens, but I think 1200~1500 true out the front lumens would be more than possible!!!!!!!!!!!! We will have to see.

Jose


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## MrGman (May 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I posted on page one in the second post readings of the Malkoff MC-E Warm module showing voltage/current and power and the lumens change as a function thereof from 4.5 up to 10V. It doesn't really want to turn on at 4.5V it comes on above that and then I dropped it down once on. Regulation starts at 5.0VDC. As it goes above 7.0V the output power starts to go down slightly. That is the driver protection circuit getting warmer from the higher differential voltage across itself which means slightly higher power dissipation across itself, but because its protected it folds back slightly and we see that as a slight drop in lumens out. Not significant. For this test I had a cooling fan running on the light the entire time. I double checked these readings and it does have this slight fold back curve in the regulation but its otherwise relatively flat and solid in performance. 

The point is running up to 10V will not get you increased brightness. Running it right in the 6 to 7V range will get you optimum brightness. Using 2 rechargeable batteries that start above 7.4V but drop in to the 6V range (don't go exact on me) will keep it in the peak brightness mode. I will be doing the regular cool MC-E next. 

Now that I have the equipment to do this in the secret bunker I can do this for various lights of interest but certainly am not going to do this on every little light there is.


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## MrGman (May 26, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I have now posted the power versus lumen range of the MCE-Cool module showing its power regulation. Both were done inside the Solarforce L2 host with AR coated glass and a fan on the unit to help keep it cool and stable but these are definitely warmed up units that don't show the higher peak readings that these 2 modules can deliver within the first 30 seconds of turn on, Also added a link to more back yard beam shots of some higher power lights. I definitely only want more "warm" tinted lights. No more cool bluish tint lights. G. 

Please note I am adding things to the lumens readings on page one here are there without always putting in a new post that updates have been made. So check page one for the 6 inch and the separate 16 inch sphere readings now and again for the latest updates. Enjoy!


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## Bullzeyebill (May 26, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Thanks MrGman.

Bill


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## RichS (May 27, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> *Orange readings are Incandescents, (forgive me). Truth is Truth. *


No need to ask forgiveness MrGman. Everytime I fire up my M6 or Mag85 and I can see as well as I do in broad daylight, all incandescents are once again forgiven. (the truth will set you free) 

BTW - do you have access to either of these for readings? It would be nice to see these on the list as a couple of the incan favorites.


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## MrGman (May 29, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

The data that was posted here was not the Dereelight Module I thought it was. I believe its an older Solarforce R2 I had in storage but not sure about that beyond 80% either. I apologize. I have a lot of modules and since I change reflectors around sometimes labels get lost. G



A typical "low budget" 3 to 13V module, not guaranteed to be fully "regulated" through that voltage just the operating voltage. FWIW. G

Volts____Amps____watts____Lumens____
_2.80____0.02____0.06______8.6____
_2.86____0.03____0.09_____11.8____
_2.91____0.04____0.12_____15.6____
_2.98____0.06____0.17_____21.3____
_3.28____0.16____0.52_____54.1____
_3.31____0.17____0.57_____58.1____
_3.38____0.20____0.68_____67.2____
_3.49____0.25____0.88_____80.6____
_3.66____0.33____1.22____101.3____
_3.85____0.43____1.65____123.2____
_3.97____0.49____1.95____137.1____
_4.08____0.55____2.25____149.5____
_4.19____0.61____2.57____161.5____
_4.29____0.66____2.83____168.2____
_4.53____0.78____3.55____188.4____
_4.72____0.88____4.15____197.9____
_4.91____0.86____4.21____200.2____
_5.12____0.84____4.28____201.0____
_5.47____0.82____4.49____206.1____
_5.70____0.80____4.57____207.8____
_5.92____0.78____4.64____210.1____
_6.21____0.80____4.97____208.2____
_6.49____0.79____5.12____212.0____
_6.75____0.70____4.70____214.5____
_7.00____0.71____4.94____212.2____
_7.39____0.63____4.64____211.8____
_7.70____0.60____4.63____212.2____
_7.91____0.59____4.63____212.6____
_8.09____0.57____4.64____213.5____
_8.25____0.56____4.63____213.0____
_8.44____0.55____4.63____211.4____
_8.71____0.53____4.64____214.9____
_8.92____0.52____4.60____211.8____
_9.15____0.51____4.63____214.1____
_9.28____0.50____4.62____214.3____
_9.34____0.50____4.63____214.7____
_9.65____0.48____4.61____211.4____
_9.84____0.47____4.62____212.0____
_9.99____0.46____4.61____212.4____
10.19____0.45____4.61____212.8____
10.91____0.42____4.61____209.1____


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## MrGman (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I went to a party and mingled with many strange lights trying to entice me. Here are some of the turn on results. Only 1 light did I actually use the "peak" capture and hold feature which is far less than one second because it was a grossly underpowered P7 using 2X14500's. Its turn on current is very high and it sags fast according to its owner and from what I saw. Orange are incans. A triple P7 had the highest brightness title of the night for lights that would go into the sphere. Home made monstrosities or store bought HID's with 10 in wide bezels not included. The battery power condition was unknown since most were being played with throughout the night. That is why this list doesn't go into the full regular list, since these were not made under controlled conditions on fresh batteries and 3 full minutes of run time. But you get the idea. The surprising light of the night was the Leupold mostly because the SureFire P91 lamp is rated for 200 lumens. However with 2 fresh IMR's it pumped out an amazing 384 lumens. Didn't have a way to measure the current. Two demerits to the flashoholic who shall remain unnamed for bringing a clampmeter to the party. We retested and redid the calculations several times. Must be those danged SureFire super lumens again. The Lumens factory lamp using IMR batteries put out a very predictable 270 lumens. None of my lights got jealous while I fondled all these other lights. The Surefire E2DL I tested that night was only 145 lumens, battery condition unknown, don't know if its really representative of that light at all. 

*Brand/Model________Host/Model/Bezel______Mode_________Lumens__On Time*
*Triple P7___________UCL in Mag Host??____????__________1235.2__1 sec*
*Triple P7___________UCL in Mag Host??____????__________1199.7__3 sec*
*Welsh Allen-1185____Maglight__________3 AW C LI ION_____1042,___1 sec*
*MC-E 2S2P_________MiniMag no bezel______2X14500 LI______954.1__0 sec*
*Lambda Revo P7_____3C body______________3 NiMH_________757.4__1 sec*
*MC-E 2S2P_________MiniMag no bezel______2X14500 LI______714.5__1 sec*
*MC-E 2S2P_________MiniMag_____________2X14500 LI______639.1__1 sec*
*Osram O-Star_______Arcmania Super_F-V,___4 AW RCR123,___639.1__1 sec*
*Weedle 3 Q5________Mag head 2 C cell body__2 C Lith Ion,_____574.0__1 sec*
*MR-X Lux 5,________Mag body_____________6 AA NiMH______565.1__1 sec*
*Wolfeyes Storm Q5___Triple Q5,____________3X18650________565.1__1 sec*
*Malkoff P7,_________FiveMega 1 C Cell,_____1 C Lith Ion,_____417.2__1 sec*
*Weedle 3 Q5________Mag head 1 C cell body__1 C Lith Ion,_____399.4__1 sec*
*SureFire P91,_______Leupold MX121,_______2 IMR 16340_____384.6__1 sec*
*Malkoff P7,_________L2 size host___________1X18650,________383.1__1 sec*
*L.F. IMR 9,_________Surefire 6P____________2 IMR 16340,____270.7__1 sec*
*Arcmania__________Mega Extreme_________1 CR123________149___1 sec*
*SF E2DL________________________________2XCR123_______145___1 sec*
*Quala Rebel Tower_______________________1XRCR123______138___1 sec*
*Zebralight H501__________________________1 AA Alk_________84___1 sec*
*Zebralight H501__________________________1 AA NiMH_______70___1 sec*


----------



## MrGman (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

bigchelis just stopped by the secret bunker with the latest of the latest triple P7 drop in for the SureFire M6. Bring your ultra dark radiation protection megagoggles. OTF real lumens starts at over 1700, OUCH. :bow:

He is one happy camper.

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2920352&postcount=3

This is the brightest real out the front lumens Light I have seen. I have heard of the Wiseled making 1800 lumens, but I don't know if those are OTF.


----------



## RyanA (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

COOL! WA1185! Gman, you're the man!
Any chance of a test of wa 1185 on 3x IMR 16340?
I suppose the 1185 m6 with 3x 17670 is probably in the ball park.
Anyways, awesome, just awesome.


----------



## MrGman (Jun 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



RyanA said:


> COOL! WA1185! Gman, you're the man!
> Any chance of a test of wa 1185 on 3x IMR 16340?
> I suppose the 1185 m6 with 3x 17670 is probably in the ball park.
> Anyways, awesome, just awesome.


 
I tested 4 WA1185 type lamps, one was with IMR 16340 type set up I believe it was a fivemega 3 cell body. It got 887.5 lumens in the first second. Remember though, don't know the state of the batteries on these. But that is pretty awesome for that. Try not to 

Another one with 3 18650 got up to 1016 (battery condition unknown once again). 

G


----------



## Alan B (Jun 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I tested 4 WA1185 type lamps, one was with IMR 16340 type set up I believe it was a fivemega 3 cell body. It got 887.5 lumens in the first second. Remember though, don't know the state of the batteries on these. But that is pretty awesome for that. Try not to
> 
> Another one with 3 18650 got up to 1016 (battery condition unknown once again).
> 
> G



1185 on 16340? That's brutal (on the cells).

I suspect the 1185 on too many AA's was mine (blue 3D). 9xAA NiMH with my prototype hotwire regulator. I thought the WA1164 was slightly brighter (red 2D, 8xAA, early production DropIn PHD regulator).

If that was my red 2.5D triple P7 it is 3x AW C cells through a D2Dim. I'm charging them now - they were at about 2/3 full, or at least the first one was.


----------



## RyanA (Jun 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I tested 4 WA1185 type lamps, one was with IMR 16340 type set up I believe it was a fivemega 3 cell body. It got 887.5 lumens in the first second. Remember though, don't know the state of the batteries on these. But that is pretty awesome for that. Try not to
> 
> Another one with 3 18650 got up to 1016 (battery condition unknown once again).
> 
> G



I won't drool, I own one. Just wanted to see what kind of bragging rights I'm entitled to.



Alan B said:


> 1185 on 16340? That's brutal (on the cells).
> 
> I suspect the 1185 on too many AA's was mine (blue 3D). 9xAA NiMH with my prototype hotwire regulator. I thought the WA1164 was slightly brighter (red 2D, 8xAA, early production DropIn PHD regulator).
> 
> If that was my red 2.5D triple P7 it is 3x AW C cells through a D2Dim. I'm charging them now - they were at about 2/3 full, or at least the first one was.



They're within spec. Its a special chemistry, lower capacity but higher draw.


----------



## gswitter (Jun 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I tested 4 WA1185 type lamps, one was with IMR 16340 type set up I believe it was a fivemega 3 cell body. It got 887.5 lumens in the first second. Remember though, don't know the state of the batteries on these. But that is pretty awesome for that. Try not to
> 
> Another one with 3 18650 got up to 1016 (battery condition unknown once again).


I can help a little...

Alan B had a regulated 1185 build (very nice!), but I don't recall the voltage it was set to. bigchelis was running an 1185 in his M6 on 3x 17670. And, I had three 1185 builds with me (yeah, I like that bulb):


Mag 3C w/borofloat lens, FM LOP reflector, AW soft-start switch and 3x AW Protected "C" Li-ions
FM Megalennium w/Surefire Millennium turbohead (stock glass & reflector), 3x AW protected 18650s and AW soft-start switch
FM 2x18500 Prince (borofloat lens, LOP reflector) w/3x AW IMR16340s _-RyanA knows all about this one_
I imagine JimH had an 1185 or two in his bag as well.

The batteries in all three of my builds were fresh off the charger (4.2V) the night before.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jun 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Hey MrGman, I don't want to be seeing any of those good for nothin', stinkin' incan lights being tested and posted in the LED section !!! :devil:

Sorry, after our last "go around" over the DEFT/Aspheric far throwing thread, I had to give ya some 'incan jazz.' Seriously, it was way cool that you brought your "box" to that west coast get together, and continue building your list. 

Thanks for all your dedication and contribution to the community. Really great resource. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## MrGman (Jun 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



LuxLuthor said:


> Hey MrGman, I don't want to be seeing any of those good for nothin', stinkin' incan lights being tested and posted in the LED section !!! :devil:
> 
> Sorry, after our last "go around" over the DEFT/Aspheric far throwing thread, I had to give ya some 'incan jazz.' Seriously, it was way cool that you brought your "box" to that west coast get together, and continue building your list.
> 
> Thanks for all your dedication and contribution to the community. Really great resource. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


 

My emergency bottle of Scotch is empty, you can help to resupply my "resources". 

I wouldn't turn down a 1000 lumen incan it is a nice beam. I only post them with the LEDs to show what the ancient technology competition brings to the table, or in this case, to the sphere O truth. After all 1000 lumens is a 1000 lumens. :wow:

But I will say this. While I was testing those incans, Lawrence Livermore Lab called and said they wanted their cold fusion reactors back!!! 

Battery power might be an issue.  G


----------



## RyanA (Jun 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



gswitter said:


> I can help a little...
> 
> Alan B had a regulated 1185 build (very nice!), but I don't recall the voltage it was set to. bigchelis was running an 1185 in his M6 on 3x 17670. And, I had three 1185 builds with me (yeah, I like that bulb):
> 
> ...



LOL, as soon as I saw fivemega mentioned I knew it had to be you or JayT.

LOL at the cold fusion also... If only.
Then the saying would probably go "Guns don't kill people, if nuclear powered flashlights do the job first." or "Only you can stop CPF from starting forest fires."


----------



## MrGman (Jun 7, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2969888&postcount=55

Some of my testing data on the Malkoff M60 in the Malkoff MD2 host comparing it to a Solarforce Host with no glass in the Bezel using batteries and also with DC supply just for grins. Enjoy.

I really like this Malkoff MD2 host with the two mode ring. It is highly functional.


----------



## RyanA (Jun 7, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2969888&postcount=55
> 
> Some of my testing data on the Malkoff M60 in the Malkoff MD2 host comparing it to a Solarforce Host with no glass in the Bezel using batteries and also with DC supply just for grins. Enjoy.
> 
> I really like this Malkoff MD2 host with the two mode ring. It is highly functional.



I was looking at the Malkoff site this week. Where is the ring located?


----------



## MrGman (Jun 7, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

The two mode ring replaces the regular aluminum ring that holds the module in tight inside the bezel or head of the MD2 flashlight. It screws into the threads in the back of the head of the flashlight and holds that Malkoff LED module in there very nice and snug. Turning the entire head assembly less than a quarter of a turn causes the output to shift high to low and vice versa. Very handy. G.


----------



## strinq (Jun 10, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Hi MrGman, was wondering if you have readings for the M2XC4 as you included it in your beamshots. Cheers.


----------



## MrGman (Jun 11, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



strinq said:


> Hi MrGman, was wondering if you have readings for the M2XC4 as you included it in your beamshots. Cheers.


 
That was wbp's M2XC4 that he was evaluating and I helped him take the photos. He measured it in his 16" sphere at 685 lumens and said it was dropping from there. So Those numbers sound about right. I was hoping to take numbers of all 3 of the new EagleTac M2 series lights but now I am losing interest.


----------



## Patriot (Jun 11, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I was hoping to take numbers of all 3 of the new EagleTac M2 series lights but now I am losing interest.



....because of certain negative points about the lights or just because you've spent a lot of time with them lately. I ask because I thought I was close to 
picking one up.


----------



## MrGman (Jun 11, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Patriot said:


> ....because of certain negative points about the lights or just because you've spent a lot of time with them lately. I ask because I thought I was close to
> picking one up.


 

Because of all the totally over the top nitpicking about this and that of all these 600 plus lumens lights that people would have totally killed for 5 years ago, and now the rotation of the switch just isn't right, or its front heavy or the low mode just isn't low enough. 

I can carry 470 lumens in my Malkoff MD2 in my front pocket and it has 1 low mode, no stupid strobe, no really stupid SOS. No hitting the button 12 times to get back to high, no figuring out how far to turn the ring and oops I overshot turbo now I am in strobe. Just tired of all of it. Buy the light, be happy, don't assume it will save you from alien attack.


----------



## strinq (Jun 11, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I was hoping to take numbers of all 3 of the new EagleTac M2 series lights but now I am losing interest.


 
I think a lot of people here would love for you to do so.  So on behalf of them, please don't lose the interest in taking the readings for all 3 lights.


----------



## MrGman (Jun 11, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



strinq said:


> I think a lot of people here would love for you to do so.  So on behalf of them, please don't lose the interest in taking the readings for all 3 lights.


 

I have asked for people to send them who had them for testing, dropping my normal pizza payment requirement. I have had Zero response. I have no intention of buying these 3 flashlights simply for test purposes. G


----------



## strinq (Jun 11, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Oh shucks. Too bad I'm not from where you are. But thanks for all the effort so far. Cheers.


----------



## SwatDude (Jun 12, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I can carry 470 lumens in my Malkoff MD2 in my front pocket and it has 1 low mode, no stupid strobe, no really stupid SOS.


 
Does the MD2 come with a drop-in? What battery/ drop-in combo are you using to get 470 lumens?


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jun 12, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



SwatDude said:


> Does the MD2 come with a drop-in? What battery/ drop-in combo are you using to get 470 lumens?



Go to post 1 and post 2 in this thread, and look at the results. MrGman references the type of drop in host, and the type of batteries used. No, the MD2 does not come with a drop in. Go to this site, and check it out. http://www.malkoffdevices.com/shop2/

Bill


----------



## SwatDude (Jun 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Bullzeyebill said:


> Go to post 1 and post 2 in this thread, and look at the results. MrGman references the type of drop in host, and the type of batteries used. No, the MD2 does not come with a drop in. Go to this site, and check it out. http://www.malkoffdevices.com/shop2/
> 
> Bill


 

Bill, I had done that before asking the question. There is no Malkoff MD2 host listed that puts out 470 lumens.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jun 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I just had a late night humerous thought of someone stupidly sticking a torch (as in a 100-250W bulb) incan in the hole while GMan is watching his meter peg, and suddenly his entire 6" sphere melts from the heat.

Well it was a humerous thought to me.....and it is late.....

It does make me wonder how various companies measure high heat output bulbs to get accurate ratings without damaging their setups.


----------



## MrGman (Jun 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



SwatDude said:


> Bill, I had done that before asking the question. There is no Malkoff MD2 host listed that puts out 470 lumens.


 

Mr Dude, you should be swatted 

The host is sold separately and you can put in any of Gene Malkoff's M30 or M60 (the MC-E are part of the M60 series) Modules you like. I have the MC-E cool or "neutral" tint, that in combination with this host that does not have any additional glass layers in front of the module (the frosted diffuser of the MC-E is a hard glass I checked), I get 470 lumens out. I use 2 AWRCR123 batteries, can also use 2 CR123 primaries. I also have the 2 mode "switch" ring to step it down to low when I want from high. All available on the Malkoff website.

I have posted this unit's output in Solarforce hosts on this thread. The knowledge that the MD2 is just the host that is a customfit for the Malkoff modules is published in several places. But since you didn't see the actual data that said MC-E and MD2 in this thread specifically I want razz you  at all .

The MC-E neutral or cool M60 module is rated at 500 lumens but normally through some ones front bezel with glass you lose a little. I am getting an honest 470 lumens out the front with 2 little batteries from the Malkoff MD2 host which I am so danged happy with for its ergonomic function and really cool looks, I just can't say it. And I mean it, I have 20 danged high tech flashlights. The knurling on this one makes it so I don't have to have a grip ring or some other special feature to hang on to the light. The size is great, its comfortable in my pants pockets. The pushbutton tactile feel is perfect. I can do momentary or forward click on and off. I have high and low when I want and only when I want as I don't have to cycle from high through low and back on the switch. 

You can go to the Malkoff site, buy the MD2 host, buy the M60-MC-E module neutral or warm and the 2 mode switch ring and have what I have. 

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2975656&postcount=120

Check out all of this thread with my testing starting on page 2 to give you more history of this MD2 flashlight host. It is designed exclusively for the Malkoff modules and it really works well. And you can have 470 lumens in this size host in short order. G.


----------



## MrGman (Jun 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



LuxLuthor said:


> I just had a late night humerous thought of someone stupidly sticking a torch (as in a 100-250W bulb) incan in the hole while GMan is watching his meter peg, and suddenly his entire 6" sphere melts from the heat.
> 
> Well it was a humerous thought to me.....and it is late.....
> 
> It does make me wonder how various companies measure high heat output bulbs to get accurate ratings without damaging their setups.


 
The 6 inch sphere system made by Labsphere is high grade Aluminum with Barium Oxide coatings inside. It would take a lot for something to happen to that. 

My sphere system in the secret bunker O truth is styrofoam but it is also 16 inches inside diameter and I have put in 1000 plus lumen incans that were running over 40 watts and most probably over 50 watts to get that kind of output with no problem.


----------



## SwatDude (Jun 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> You can go to the Malkoff site, buy the MD2 host, buy the M60-MC-E module neutral or warm and the 2 mode switch ring and have what I have.


 
:twothumbsPrecisely the answer I was looking for!!!! Thanks!


----------



## MrGman (Jun 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



SwatDude said:


> :twothumbsPrecisely the answer I was looking for!!!! Thanks!


 
Your required payment will be 2 boxes of ammo, the "good" stuff.


----------



## MrGman (Jun 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I tested my first LED light for a handgun. The Streamlight TLR-1 rated at about 130 lumens. Measures more, quite a pleasant surprise. Its all on page one but here is a glimpse. 

Streamlight_TLR-1_Rail Mount_2X_CR123,__________159.8 Lum____1 sec
Streamlight_TLR-1_Rail Mount_2X_CR123,__________159.2 Lum____5 sec

I have had the Glock brand Laser/Flashlight combo for a long time. Its original Incandescent lamp measures 60 lumens at turn on. I no longer consider this really adequate. Its a "better than nothing" light source. But since the laser works really well has proven to be very reliable over the years, I have kept it. G.


----------



## Alan B (Jun 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> The 6 inch sphere system made by Labsphere is high grade Aluminum with Barium Oxide coatings inside. It would take a lot for something to happen to that.
> 
> My sphere system in the secret bunker O truth is styrofoam but it is also 16 inches inside diameter and I have put in 1000 plus lumen incans that were running over 40 watts and most probably over 50 watts to get that kind of output with no problem.



I have my 6D [email protected] working now (it was not yet working the day of the recent CPF gathering), and it has a standard size head, so maybe next time we can see what 160 watts does... Maybe we can get to 3-4K lumens...

The 16 inch styrofoam sphere should be okay for a short test. Perhaps I should test it on a chunk of styrofoam at close range. There is a lot of surface area in there to spread the heat over, but then again not much mass. Well, read the meter quickly :thumbsup:


----------



## MrGman (Jun 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

do a test where the light is pointing at the styrofoam surface literally 16 inches away and hold it there for one minute. If you aren't burning the styrofoam we have a chance. The heat from the head will have to be cooled by fan to not get the opening hot enough to melt. I am worried that you could damage the sphere. A 10 second run may be all you get at that. send me a PM with the results and we will talk about you coming over for a real measurement. G.


----------



## Alan B (Jun 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> do a test where the light is pointing at the styrofoam surface literally 16 inches away and hold it there for one minute. If you aren't burning the styrofoam we have a chance. The heat from the head will have to be cooled by fan to not get the opening hot enough to melt. I am worried that you could damage the sphere. A 10 second run may be all you get at that. send me a PM with the results and we will talk about you coming over for a real measurement. G.



I did a couple of quick tests, not a minute but about 20-30 seconds. From a couple of inches the styrofoam took pretty significant damage. From 8" there was no effect, the surface was only warm. From 16", for 10-20 seconds, there seems to be very little risk at this power level. Now one of the 350 watt monsters might be different. The head was warming up but not hot.


----------



## SwatDude (Jun 15, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Your required payment will be 2 boxes of ammo, the "good" stuff.


 
What caliber??


----------



## SwatDude (Jun 15, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I tested my first LED light for a handgun. The Streamlight TLR-1 rated at about 130 lumens. Measures more, quite a pleasant surprise. Its all on page one but here is a glimpse.
> 
> Streamlight_TLR-1_Rail Mount_2X_CR123,__________159.8 Lum____1 sec
> Streamlight_TLR-1_Rail Mount_2X_CR123,__________159.2 Lum____5 sec
> ...


 
I have the TLR-1 and the Surefire X300. I would be curious to see which one was brighter. I know this is probably blasphemy on this website but I don't like the switches as well on the surefire as I do the TLR. Also, I have come to believe Surefire's customer service bites. I have sent at least 3 emails that went unresponded asking a technical question about their products.


----------



## MrGman (Jun 15, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



SwatDude said:


> What caliber??


 
168 grain boat tail 308 of course. How could you ask such a silly question. :thinking:


----------



## Alan B (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> 168 grain boat tail 308 of course. How could you ask such a silly question. :thinking:



Not the VLDs? What about the 300 win mags??


----------



## MrGman (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Alan B said:


> Not the VLDs? What about the 300 win mags??


 

Last response to this off topic stuff since I started it.

Its dialed in for the Sierra Boat Tails and I ain't changing it. 

I shoot 300 _Short_ mags as well, 150 grain rockets, all dialed in for those in yet a different top secret project.

Okay back to light stuff. I want my phaser rifle! 100 joules at a whack should be good for starters.


----------



## MrGman (Jun 20, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I have new video in the video section thread on page 1. It is the last one in the what will become the "old" backyard of truth. Moving to a new place with a mega yard. Anyway tested bigchelis' 1700 lumens monster among several other MC-E and P7 lights, highlighted in red.


----------



## Patriot (Jun 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

In enjoyed the most recent video with the LED Zeppelin lights compared. Actually, everything that was compared was helpful and informative as usual.

Thanks for taking the time Gman and bigchelis. 
:thanks:


----------



## Patriot (Jun 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Because of all the totally over the top nitpicking about this and that of all these 600 plus lumens lights that people would have totally killed for 5 years ago, and now the rotation of the switch just isn't right, or its front heavy or the low mode just isn't low enough.
> 
> I can carry 470 lumens in my Malkoff MD2 in my front pocket and it has 1 low mode, no stupid strobe, no really stupid SOS. No hitting the button 12 times to get back to high, no figuring out how far to turn the ring and oops I overshot turbo now I am in strobe. Just tired of all of it. Buy the light, be happy, don't assume it will save you from alien attack.





So true! Even 2 years ago for that matter. It's fascinating to me that people get so hung up over the tiniest of nuances. I'm nearly convinced that a person could pick any of the popularly known 4-die lights currently available off of looks alone and they wouldn't be disappointed in the end. Hey, obviously there's nothing wrong with weighing the options before spending hard earned money but I do think there is a link between too much information and indecision. 

Interesting that you also mention and find value in simplistic and basic functions vs. some of the complicated multi-mode "computer lights" that are available today.  It reminded me that at one time I knew every setting and feature of my Novatac 120P. Today I only remember the most basic functions and have to refer to the guide for anything beyond that. More often than not I find myself reaching for a basic 2 stage light which will suffice for 90% of my lighting needs.


----------



## bigchelis (Jun 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

MrGman,

Can you update the chart with the P91 w/IMR 18650 and P90 w/IMR 18650 please.


I want to tell all the folks at the incandescent thread the good new.:sick2:


----------



## 1wrx7 (Jun 25, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

MrGman... Thank You:thumbsup:... I appreciate all the work you've done... and anyone else who's been involved.

I've scanned through your thread a couple of times, but when Bigchelis posted about his LedZep 3XP7 mod making 1700 lm's I had to check the thread again. I know mine is bright, but it is nice to see some numbers to back it up. Keep up the good work... and I'll keep checking your thread.


----------



## MrGman (Jun 25, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> MrGman,
> 
> Can you update the chart with the P91 w/IMR 18650 and P90 w/IMR 18650 please.
> 
> ...


 

They're just a bunch of "hot" heads :tinfoil:, do they deserve good news???  

If only they made an incandescent with the color balance of my Malkoff MC-E warm. 

Yeah ok, its done already. Will be going off line for 4 days so that's it for now. G.


----------



## Bimmerboy (Jun 25, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> They're just a bunch of "hot" heads :tinfoil:


LOL... excellent nickname for us! Thanks, G.

I'm gonna' start calling myself a "hot head", even though I'm heavy into LED's as well.

Does that make me bi-luminous?








MrGman said:


> If only they made an incandescent with the color balance of my Malkoff MC-E warm.


Yes, it would be novel to see such an inferior incan.


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jun 25, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

The IMR18650 is wasted on the P90, I think. MrGman, when you return to planet CPF, would you, please, if possible, run a P90 with a LiCo 18650, unprotected, if you have any. I am thinking that the P90 may really make closer to 200 lumens, at least 180.

Bill


----------



## MrGman (Jun 26, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Bullzeyebill said:


> The IMR18650 is wasted on the P90, I think. MrGman, when you return to planet CPF, would you, please, if possible, run a P90 with a LiCo 18650, unprotected, if you have any. I am thinking that the P90 may really make closer to 200 lumens, at least 180.
> 
> Bill


 

I don't have any of those batteries and I actually sold off my 16 inch sphere so I am currently sphereless. The one at work is also not set up for other reasons. I am in the process of moving and then will be getting married to Miss Torchiere' in Sept so I will be out of commission for a while. Computer gets torn down in the morning. G

G.


----------



## bigchelis (Jun 26, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Bullzeyebill said:


> The IMR18650 is wasted on the P90, I think. MrGman, when you return to planet CPF, would you, please, if possible, run a P90 with a LiCo 18650, unprotected, if you have any. I am thinking that the P90 may really make closer to 200 lumens, at least 180.
> 
> Bill


 
MrGman tested the P90 with 2 IMR 18650's. As far as unprotected these are the ultimate you can get or is there something better?

If I recall it was 138 out the front on turn-on with Solarforce hosts and UCL lens.


----------



## KRUPPSTAHL (Jul 9, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

we are all mourning about the fact that MrGman

is SPHERELESS now !

what a loss !

cant wait to go over to his new HUGE backyard
to test lights in comparison....
hope the neighbors have thick curtains / and blinds.

greetings Gary ! keep me updated on the new place !


----------



## recDNA (Jul 9, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I searched but was unable to find the lumens measurement for the Malkoff M60 (the ordinary one). Is it here? I'm leaning toward the MC-E but of course that is in shorter supply.


----------



## bigchelis (Jul 9, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



recDNA said:


> I searched but was unable to find the lumens measurement for the Malkoff M60 (the ordinary one). Is it here? I'm leaning toward the MC-E but of course that is in shorter supply.


 

Here it is and tested in many different combos
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________542__turn-on____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________528__30 sec.____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________514__1 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________509__90 sec.____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________504__2 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________496__3 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________492__4 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________488__5 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel

Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________482__turn-on____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________461__30 sec.____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________453__1 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________447__90 sec.____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________443__2 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________435__3 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________430__4 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.
Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________426__5 min._____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext.

and here is more in the home made calibrated sphere
Malkoff MC-E__________,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________495.3__,___3 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E__________,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________465.4__,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E__________,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________457.9__,__60 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E_W_______,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________420.6__,___3 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E_W_______,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________403.7__,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E_W_______,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________403.7__,__60 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E_W_______,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________398.1__,__90 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E_W_______,__Solar, AR Glass,___________________396.3__,_120 sec_______,

And here is the M60 single emitter type.
Malkoff M60________________231__turn-on____________2 primaries____________Surefire 6P host_______________,
Malkoff M60________________220__warm,_____________2 primaries____________Surefire 6P host_______________,
Malkoff M60________________235__turn-on____________2 AW ICR123__________Surefire C2 Centurion host_______,
Malkoff M60________________218__warm _____________2 AW ICR 123_________Surefire C2 Centurian host_______,
Malkoff M60________________276__turn on____________2X17500 LI____________NO BEZEL Solarforce L2 +1 ext.__,
Malkoff M60________________245__warm_____________2X17500 LI____________NO BEZEL Solarforce L2 +1 ext.__,
Malkoff M60________________240__turn on,___________2X17500 LI____________w/nonCren BZL Solarforce L2 +1 ext.
Malkoff M60________________215__warm_____________2X17500 LI____________w/nonCren BZL Solarforce L2 +1 ext.
Malkoff M60________________212__turn-on____________2 primaries____________Solarforce L2 host_____________,
Malkoff M60________________202__warm_____________2 primaries_____________Solarforce L2 host_____________,


Malkoff M60 (BC's)_____,__Malkoff_MD2 no glass______________214.4__,___3 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 (BC's)_____,__Malkoff_MD2 no glass______________195.7__,__60 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 (BC's)_____,__SF AR glass_______________________218.9__,___3 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 (BC's)_____,__SF AR glass_______________________204.5__,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 (BC's)_____,__SF No bezel_______________________233.5__,___3 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 (BC's)_____,__SF No bezel_______________________219.4__,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123s__High___242.3_____instant peak__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123s__High___227.2_____1 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123s__High___208.0____30 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123s__High___204.9____60 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123s__High___201.8___120 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123s__High___200.9___240 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 AW RCR123___Low____18.2___240 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri,____High___229.1_____instant peak__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri,____High___217.8_____1 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri,____High___204.4____30 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri,____High___202.7____60 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri,____High___201.8___120 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri,____High___201.6___240 sec__,
Malkoff M60 __Camo MD2 w/2 mode Ring_2 CR123 Pri_____Low____11.8___240 sec__,



Most of the readins are of Malkoff M60 and M60 MC-E!!!! Read post #1 and Post #3. How you didn't see it is beyond me, but enjoy the readings and I hope they help you in building those P7 and MC-E P60 drop-ins. My all time favorate is the MC-E warm regulated from Malkoff and I am sure you will enjoy his MC-E P60 drop-ins too.


----------



## recDNA (Jul 9, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Thanks! I assume the bc lumens with the M60 being different from the camo M2 is just a fluke right?

I wonder if Malkoff will ever offer an extension tube for the MD2 allowing use of more batteries?

If I purchase a M60 and an MC-E (when available) what is involved in changing the pill?

This is post 110. How would I know to look in post 1? My settings start me out at the most recent post so I don't see the first 99 posts.

I did a _search within this thread_ with keyword _M60_ and repeatedly got a no posts found with that keyword response.


----------



## bigchelis (Jul 9, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



recDNA said:


> Thanks! I assume the bc lumens with the M60 being different from the camo M2 is just a fluke right?
> 
> I wonder if Malkoff will ever offer an extension tube for the MD2 allowing use of more batteries?
> 
> ...


 


No type the Camo MD2 with the M60 is the new and improved M60. Gene sent MrGman a sample and sure enought it made more lumens via a more efficient driver...I think, but maybe MrGman can correct me or explain.

The MrGman thread is a Sticky
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/229135

Jose


----------



## recDNA (Jul 9, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I don't have any of those batteries and I actually sold off my 16 inch sphere so I am currently sphereless. The one at work is also not set up for other reasons. I am in the process of moving and then will be getting married to Miss Torchiere' in Sept so I will be out of commission for a while. Computer gets torn down in the morning. G
> 
> G.


 
Thanks for all the work you have put into this thread.

lovecpf


----------



## MrGman (Jul 9, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

The difference from my MD2 and the tests of bigchelis marked as "bc" is based on 3 factors. Don't know the exact condition of big C's batteries, mine were fully charged. I noticed that the rubber flat ring that goes in front of the module to make a seal in the MD2 stuck out ever so slightly into the lens area and I trimmed mine back. I did see a before and after change of about 8 lumens if I recall correctly, I only published the final results with the higher numbers. And finally I had gotten the newest and latest M60 module from Gene with the MD2 for testing and its as usual, more awesome then before. There is always going to be some small level of deviation from unit to unit based on the actual LED mostly and the electronic components have some variation in their tolerances that make the driver circuit do its work. They both read what they read in the same sphere so I gotta go with those numbers.I am obviously back on line, and at least one of the 6 inch sphere's O truth is back up at work as well. I don't have any sphere systems at home. Still in the process of setting up the new house and wedding plans to Miss Torchiere' so will be busy for at least 2 more months.The back yard of Truth is ready for flashlight testing soon as the moon disappears. G.


----------



## recDNA (Jul 9, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> Here it is and tested in many different combos
> 
> Most of the readins are of Malkoff M60 and M60 MC-E!!!! Read post #1 and Post #3. How you didn't see it is beyond me, but enjoy the readings and I hope they help you in building those P7 and MC-E P60 drop-ins. My all time favorate is the MC-E warm regulated from Malkoff and I am sure you will enjoy his MC-E P60 drop-ins too.


 
I didn't realize BC meant you did the measurements too. Thanks for all your hard work!


----------



## bigchelis (Jul 10, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



recDNA said:


> I didn't realize BC meant you did the measurements too. Thanks for all your hard work!


 

BC = bigchelis when you saw BC it was just to distinguish my older M60 vs. MrGman's new and improved M60 with his MD2 hosts.

I was just the helper, the real rocket scientist is MrGman.

Hope you enjoy the readings because they take a looong time to do.


----------



## recDNA (Jul 12, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Do the dropping lumens in the Malkoff MC-E dropin in mean it has poor regulation or poor heat sinking or something else?


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jul 12, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



recDNA said:


> Do the dropping lumens in the Malkoff MC-E dropin in mean it has poor regulation or poor heat sinking or something else?



Heat sinking issues yes, but the best that you can do with the Malkoff built in heatsinking and the host flashlight. Just not enough mass there to adsorb that heat fast enough.

Bill


----------



## recDNA (Jul 12, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

And it apppears that the EagleTac T10C2 is the best in its class. I wonder why?


----------



## MrGman (Jul 14, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqezZFmo13I

This is my latest video in my new longer backyard. Its also posted in my collection of videos on page one. I found that my new Cannon digital camera is better at making videos than an older name brand digital video camera. Much better gain and clarity and it wasn't in the highest resolution mode. So this one shows off the various lights from 200 to 1700 lumen range quite well. Range to targets varies from about 35 feet to 92 feet.

Enjoy. And thanks to bigchelis for helping and bringing the photonic cannons to the party.  :buddies: G


----------



## Bimmerboy (Jul 14, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Very good, entertaining vid, and the new camera seems to be a nice improvement.

Congrats on the new Back Yard of Truth!


----------



## recDNA (Jul 14, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Hey Big C...would you send me that first light with the triple drop-in? I'll send it right back....when I'm old and feeble or dead.

Great job guyz. I can't get over how well the Eagletac does compared to the big boyz.

You might throw in some Quark models next time.

The "king" was the 
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1498.5____240 sec_ right?

Where do you get these?


----------



## Patriot (Jul 21, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



recDNA said:


> The "king" was the
> M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1498.5____240 sec_ right?
> 
> Where do you get these?





From CPF member/builder LED Zeppelin.


----------



## bigchelis (Jul 21, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

The "king" was the 
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1498.5____240 sec_ right?

Where do you get these?[/QUOTE]


You are forgetting the instant peak lumens

M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1714.5______instant peak_:bow:
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1698.2______2 sec_:wow:
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1606.5_____30 sec_
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1565.1_____60 sec_
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1523.7____120 sec_:mecry:
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1498.5____240 sec_ 



The only downside is the $420ish price for the drop-in. You then provide the M6 hosts and cells.

It is super bright and LED ZEP builds them in the custom section.


----------



## MrGman (Jul 21, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> The "king" was the
> M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1498.5____240 sec_ right?
> 
> Where do you get these?


 

You are forgetting the instant peak lumens

M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1714.5______instant peak_:bow:
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1698.2______2 sec_:wow:
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1606.5_____30 sec_
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1565.1_____60 sec_
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1523.7____120 sec_:mecry:
M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1498.5____240 sec_ 



The only downside is the $420ish price for the drop-in. You then provide the M6 hosts and cells.

It is super bright and LED ZEP builds them in the custom section.[/QUOTE]

yeah because that is all you need is that instantaneous first "peek", then your blind and its all over. You wont be getting your vision back in 240 seconds anyway. Especially if your the bad guy coming into big C's back yard because he's out there waiting with that monster light just to test it on you. 

His back up lights are all over 1000 lumens too, that guy is merciless when it come to "in your eye" lumens. G.


----------



## recDNA (Jul 23, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

mrgman - how about giving the stats on an MG PLI? Maybe Bryan will give you one to try?


----------



## MrGman (Jul 23, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



recDNA said:


> mrgman - how about giving the stats on an MG PLI? Maybe Bryan will give you one to try?


 

I don't have a large 16 inch sphere with a 3 inch wide opening with which to test such a light anymore. I sold it to a CPF member who is currently designing something powerful. So I cannot test it. It won't fit into the little 6 inch sphere system at work. I may build another sphere system in the future but not until well after my planned wedding to Miss Torchiere. It looks like another light in the 650 lumen range with a good deep reflector and good beam pattern to make it appear brighter down the center. I am sure it will be worth the money.


----------



## recDNA (Jul 23, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I don't have a large 16 inch sphere with a 3 inch wide opening with which to test such a light anymore. I sold it to a CPF member who is currently designing something powerful. So I cannot test it. It won't fit into the little 6 inch sphere system at work. I may build another sphere system in the future but not until well after my planned wedding to Miss Torchiere. It looks like another light in the 650 lumen range with a good deep reflector and good beam pattern to make it appear brighter down the center. I am sure it will be worth the money.


 
Oh it is. I bought one. Just curious what your accurate measurements would reveal.

Congrats on your upcoming nuptials. Despite all the kidding all of us married men do there is nothing else like it. You'll have a new light in your life now!:twothumbs


----------



## MrGman (Jul 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



recDNA said:


> Oh it is. I bought one. Just curious what your accurate measurements would reveal.
> 
> Congrats on your upcoming nuptials. Despite all the kidding all of us married men do there is nothing else like it. You'll have a new light in your life now!:twothumbs


 

If you have a good digital multimeter that can measure current directly put it in ammeter mode and see what the current draw is from the tailcap with a fresh set of batteries or battery. That would be good to know.

Thanks for the congrats. Miss Torchiere definitely lights up my life. 

On a different note I will be getting a MD4 Wildcat and will be doing some backyard of truth light ups to see how it does. That will be very interesting, G.


----------



## Bimmerboy (Jul 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



recDNA said:


> Congrats on your upcoming nuptials. Despite all the kidding all of us married men do there is nothing else like it. You'll have a new light in your life now!:twothumbs



Hate to admit it, but a very retarded part of my brain says congratulations, and I'm actually jealous! Still wanna' do that whole thing myself (including kids :sick2, and too many years with various Miss Flamedouche's haven't killed the spirit yet.

Good luck, and good on ya', G! :thumbsup:


----------



## bhds (Jul 25, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> ................ and it has 1 low mode, no stupid strobe, no really stupid SOS. No hitting the button 12 times to get back to high, no figuring out how far to turn the ring and oops I overshot turbo now I am in strobe. Just tired of all of it. Buy the light, be happy, don't assume it will save you from alien attack.


 Oh my, I think I love you man!:kiss:


Just kidding, Just kidding:sweat:
It's just nice to hear someone else that feels the same way about all these stupid multi-mode lights.:thumbsup:


----------



## MrGman (Jul 25, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bhds said:


> Oh my, I think I love you man!:kiss:
> 
> 
> Just kidding, Just kidding:sweat:
> It's just nice to hear someone else that feels the same way about all these stupid multi-mode lights.:thumbsup:


 

A: Your not getting my bud light johnny.
B: To know me is to love me is to buy me pizza and scotch. 
C: I read in Ken Goode's tactical book if you want "strobe" you simply shake the flashlight with your wrist (back and forth twist motion). That is supposedly more disorienting to have the light pattern cross in front of their eyes then go on and off. 
D: I have strobed the neighbors cat several times and it doesn't even make them stand up. 

G.


----------



## recDNA (Jul 25, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Bimmerboy said:


> Hate to admit it, but a very retarded part of my brain says congratulations, and I'm actually jealous! Still wanna' do that whole thing myself (including kids :sick2, and too many years with various Miss Flamedouche's haven't killed the spirit yet.
> 
> Good luck, and good on ya', G! :thumbsup:


 
I think I may have dated one of your ex girlfriends at one time! LOL (j/k)


----------



## recDNA (Jul 25, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> A: Your not getting my bud light johnny.
> B: To know me is to love me is to buy me pizza and scotch.
> C: I read in Ken Goode's tactical book if you want "strobe" you simply shake the flashlight with your wrist (back and forth twist motion). That is supposedly more disorienting to have the light pattern cross in front of their eyes then go on and off.
> D: I have strobed the neighbors cat several times and it doesn't even make them stand up.
> G.


 
My purpose for strobe is behind my car if it breaks down so some drunk doesn't ram into it! I thought it had no value at all until I read that thread about it being used in a break-down. Interestingly, I couldn't use the strobe on my TK40 to disorient an assailant because it makes ME dizzy and nauseous and all I saw was the reflection of it on the wall!


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jul 26, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> A: Your not getting my bud light johnny.
> B: To know me is to love me is to buy me pizza and scotch.
> C: I read in Ken Goode's tactical book if you want "strobe" you simply shake the flashlight with your wrist (back and forth twist motion). That is supposedly more disorienting to have the light pattern cross in front of their eyes then go on and off.
> D: I have strobed the neighbors cat several times and it doesn't even make them stand up.
> ...



Got to try my retina burning USL on the neighbor's cats. Short strobes so it doesn't burn my eyes out with the flashback. Kidding aside, a super hotwire close up can be nasty, never mind the strobing.

Bill

Bill


----------



## wbp (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I don't have any of those batteries and I actually sold off my 16 inch sphere so I am currently sphereless. The one at work is also not set up for other reasons. I am in the process of moving and then will be getting married to Miss Torchiere' in Sept so I will be out of commission for a while. Computer gets torn down in the morning. G
> G.



Wait - you SOLD the sphere??? Guys, he's gone crazy. Somebody stop this before it goes to far.

William


----------



## Mjolnir (Aug 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Hmm, I thought I had heard that Malkoff now has an integrating sphere...:thinking:


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Aug 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Mjolnir said:


> Hmm, I thought I had heard that Malkoff now has an integrating sphere...:thinking:



Yes, amazing coincidence, right? Duh. :devil: 

Bill


----------



## Justin Case (Aug 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> C: I read in Ken Goode's tactical book if you want "strobe" you simply shake the flashlight with your wrist (back and forth twist motion). That is supposedly more disorienting to have the light pattern cross in front of their eyes then go on and off.



That's the technique I call wrist wobble. It's kind of like a lighthouse search beam or the old fashioned police light bars with rotating reflectors.


----------



## MrGman (Aug 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Bullzeyebill said:


> Yes, amazing coincidence, right? Duh. :devil:
> 
> Bill


 

I didn't sell a sphere to Gene, I _gave_ him one as part of a complete system. I had put together a system with the AEMC CA813 meter and calibrated it to my various lights that were tested at work and shipped it off to Gene. 

I had a completely different system that I had put together and sold that one. I have already mentioned that both spheres would be going away in this thread in various posts that I would be doing that in anticipation of my move which I have completed. 

Gene has a matching system and so does one other person. I have access to at least one system at work that is back up and running.


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Nice you did that for Gene. Gene is a real stand up guy, sounds like you are too.

Bill


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## MrGman (Aug 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

thanks, I knew he was working on the MD4 Wildcat project at the time because we had talked about it back and forth and knowing how hard he could drive it and get the most lumens out of it and keep it stable as it warmed up was important. The best way to know that a light is stable it to be monitoring it as it warms up so I gave him a complete system so he could do just that for his lights and know that he wasn't going to over drive them and lose output as they got hot. Using a sphere system instead of just pointing the light at a spot meter makes it a lot easier to do in a small room and not have to deal with the glare of a high power light shining around as well. 

Gene has stated he's getting 600 lumens at turn on and its still over 560 lumens after 5 minutes warm up which is pretty good for that size light.

I have already posted a video of my indoor testing of it compared to the Solarforce L900M and several other lights. Its on page 1 of this thread as the last video post currently linked in as well as in the MD4 Wildcat thread. I plan on doing more videos and will try to take more still images and post those as well. the videos just don't do these lights justice compared to what I see specially with the never ending color correction and brightness readjusting which changing of lights back and forth. However, schedule is tight with upcoming wedding plans.

Regardless of absolute accuracy and calibration, on a relative scale knowing that the output of a light is not dropping in numbers because its not being overdriven for what the LED/Heatsink combination can handle is a very good thing to have. 

As always more to come later. G.


----------



## MrGman (Aug 6, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2920357&postcount=4

More videos in this thread back on page 1. Its a surprise. G.


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## CGD08 (Aug 14, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Very nice thread. Great job and hard work! :thumbsup: Thanks!

Any chance you could test EagleTac T20C2? 


You must like HL. "Rise and shine Mr. Freeman. Rise, and, shine." :twothumbs


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## MrGman (Aug 14, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



CGD08 said:


> Very nice thread. Great job and hard work! :thumbsup: Thanks!
> 
> Any chance you could test EagleTac T20C2?
> 
> ...


 
You could send me yours and pay the return shipping for me to send it back when I am done. unless some one else sends one that's the only way its going to happen. G.


----------



## Cataract (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



wbp said:


> If you want to take accurate lux readings then you need a meter that has been calibrated. Unless things have changed that's not so easy. Many of the vendors offer "NIST" options but when I paid for this it turned out to be a waste of money. I have VERY accurate instrumentation here and when I checked the so-called "NIST Traceable calibrated" meters they were off by 15% or more, completely unacceptable. In one case I contacted the vendor and they refered me to the lab they sent the meter to for calibration.


 
I do calibrations on light meters and let me tell you there is a lot of B.S. in this business. First of all, manufacturers offer calibration precisions that actually exceed what NIST can offer (who can get better results thant the official scientific institute???) and second, from one model to the next you will get very different readings, due to different spectral responses fron the different sensors. 

The best way to go by it is to have everyone doing readings on a specific spectrum compare with each other. Manufacturers promise a full spectral response, but it's total B.S... In other words, you would have to compare and calibrate separately your readings for an incan, for warm and for cool LED readings and start over to make sure nothing changed. You might have to go as far as buying or building a separate meter for each type of light. Have a good headache if you're calibrating a whole system for lumen ratings....


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Cataract said:


> I do calibrations on light meters and let me tell you there is a lot of B.S. in this business. First of all, manufacturers offer calibration precisions that actually exceed what NIST can offer (who can get better results thant the official scientific institute???) and second, from one model to the next you will get very different readings, due to different spectral responses fron the different sensors.
> 
> The best way to go by it is to have everyone doing readings on a specific spectrum compare with each other. Manufacturers promise a full spectral response, but it's total B.S... In other words, you would have to compare and calibrate separately your readings for an incan, for warm and for cool LED readings and start over to make sure nothing changed. You might have to go as far as buying or building a separate meter for each type of light. Have a good headache if you're calibrating a whole system for lumen ratings....



See this thread. Something that a group of us here at CPF did. Interesting reading. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/94232

Bill


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## Cataract (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Very interesting read indeed, looks like you guys took all the parameters into account... good job!


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## MrGman (Sep 1, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iovLqE3XtE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tal6lhQ1oQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y76dyUvoYQ

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=MrGman9999&search_type=&aq=f


I have done several videos since I last made mention of any. I will try to get lumens numbers off of the new Moddo triple R2 shown in one of these videos very soon.


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## MrGman (Sep 1, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Lumens tested moddoo's triple R2 in the real 6 inch sphere. 560 lumens at turn on about 530 lumens when it warms up. Its posted on page one.


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## bigchelis (Sep 2, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Lumens tested moddoo's triple R2 in the real 6 inch sphere. 560 lumens at turn on about 530 lumens when it warms up. Its posted on page one.


 


Thank you for testing this P60 drop-in.

Are you going to test it with 4 AW CR123 cell?

BigC


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## MrGman (Sep 2, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> Thank you for testing this P60 drop-in.
> 
> Are you going to test it with 4 AW CR123 cell?
> 
> BigC


 

After testing its regulation with a DC power supply twice and seeing that its well regulated out past 15V I don't see that it would be any brighter. Its holding at about 11.3 watts power input.


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 2, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

How does the Moddo hold up over a 5 minute run? Heat wise and lumen wise?

Bill


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## MrGman (Sep 2, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I did not have time to do a 5 minute lumen run test at work. It seemed pretty stable in the 530 lumen range but 30 to 60 seconds is not a full confirmation. It does get toasty running over 11 watts of power. It was getting the flashlight host very warm when I was checking power regulation. I have it I guess I can run it for 10 minutes and get back to you.


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Sep 2, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I did not have time to do a 5 minute lumen run test at work. It seemed pretty stable in the 530 lumen range but 30 to 60 seconds is not a full confirmation. It does get toasty running over 11 watts of power. It was getting the flashlight host very warm when I was checking power regulation. I have it I guess I can run it for 10 minutes and get back to you.



Thanks. :thumbsup:

Bill


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## MrGman (Sep 3, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Using a thermocouple squeezed behind the bezel to the host it hit 53 degrees C in 10 minutes. It was just barely too hot to hold the outside surface of the bezel. But holding it did cool it down. I was holding it by the body the whole time which was getting warm but not too hot. Its 11.3 watts so its getting toasty. On a cool night outdoors shouldn't be a problem. ON a hot summer night, may want to limit run time. Big C has got the copper foil around the module to make sure it gets good transfer to the host. Can't say what the module is seeing but I know its definitely hotter.


----------



## Justin Case (Sep 3, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

53C seems high. If we assume that the measured temp is the same as the solder point temp, then the junction temp is approximately

53C + 9C/W*11W = 152C

The datasheet for the XP-E states that the max junction temp is 150C.

It would be interesting to see the IS lumens data for 5 min and 10 min runs. According to the datasheet, the relative luminous flux is 65% at a junction temp of 150C.


----------



## MrGman (Sep 3, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

The optics lab were I do the testing is pretty busy these days and I didn't want to tie up the lab or the engineer's time it running the longer measurement so I only took the 1 minute data. I already gave that light back to bigchelis. There are other things going on which I don't want to mention here right now but availability of that lab is going away in the near future. :mecry:

In the short term may get the engineer to throw the 12 inch sphere system together and calibrate it to do a run of some 1600 lumen class maglite super mods. Won't know for a couple of weeks. G.


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## Justin Case (Sep 3, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

In your thermocouple measurement, were you testing just the drop-in sitting in the bezel, without the battery tube attached? That's how I've done thermocouple measurements on some of my LED Turbo Towers, since I need access to power the LED tower and I also don't want to sever my thermocouple wires either when threading on the battery tube.

I've thought about running the power supply wires and thermocouple wire through the bottom of the battery tube by removing the tailcap. That would allow the battery tube to provide additional heat sinking capability, which would be the case in actual operation.


----------



## MrGman (Sep 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Justin Case said:


> In your thermocouple measurement, were you testing just the drop-in sitting in the bezel, without the battery tube attached? That's how I've done thermocouple measurements on some of my LED Turbo Towers, since I need access to power the LED tower and I also don't want to sever my thermocouple wires either when threading on the battery tube.
> 
> I've thought about running the power supply wires and thermocouple wire through the bottom of the battery tube by removing the tailcap. That would allow the battery tube to provide additional heat sinking capability, which would be the case in actual operation.


 
No I was testing a fully assembled flashlight. The thermal couple was not under the bezel just at the back rim of the bezel to the flashlight host of a Solarforce L2 that had 2 X 18650 batteries. So there was a lot of mass there and more realistic to what it would be used like. I was running it off the 2 IMR batteries. So considering all the mass it had to help dissipate the heat it was getting toasty. G.


----------



## Justin Case (Sep 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Ok. So the thermocouple was on the outer surface of the light, near the bezel/flashlight host joint? That's a hot surface! Unfortunately, that also means that the 53C figure is probably cooler than the actual solder point temperature since there are thermal resistances between the triple XP-E star and the heat sink (which I had ignored previously as well, for simplicity), and between the heat sink and the bezel (ambient). What that means is that the junction temperature is probably even hotter than the calculated 152C.


----------



## MrGman (Sep 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

yes its probably hotter than your previous estimates. It would have been really nice to have my sphere at home and measure the long term lumens drop but reality is what it is. I may be moving again, if not then may build another integration sphere system. But I agree it was hotter than I would have liked. On a cold winters evening this light would probably do fine but in California if ever we have a power failure its on a really hot summer day or night. 

My answer for this is simply to have multiple lights and switch off between them if there really was a long term power outage, and to switch them to low mode, another reason I really love the Malkoff MD series, and of course there are many other lights that have multiple modes as well. Just to be fair Fenix and Eagletac to name 2 other brands, I have both, and they work very well.


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## Justin Case (Sep 4, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I'll have to see how my Moddoo drop-ins fare. I am driving them with 6xAMC7135 (single mode) at a nominal 2100mA. I've measured about 3.2V Vf, so in theory, the LED power draw could be around 6.7W instead of 9W-10W.


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## js-lots (Sep 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

MrGman,
have you tested n_benders sst50 or sst90 P60 drop in? I could not find any results? If so, how were the results? Thanks


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## MrGman (Sep 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



js-lots said:


> MrGman,
> have you tested n_benders sst50 or sst90 P60 drop in? I could not find any results? If so, how were the results? Thanks


 
Nailbender has the 16 inch sphere system that I had built and was using, calibrated as best possible from the original one at work using multiple lights and used as a reference from numerous lights I tested and is now using it to test his own lights that he is creating. When he is ready to publish findings or advertise lights that he is happy with and ready to release you will hear about it directly from him.

I know that he is working to create a series of lights that will have stable outputs for a given power consumption levels and yield the best lumen levels possible for the size and power level configurations he is working with. 

I believe bigchelis has seen or heard of some of his work. I have not seen any final product yet. But when he comes out with lights I am sure the lumens ratings will be very believable and probably on the conservative side of what they actually put out.


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## bigchelis (Sep 17, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Nailbender has the 16 inch sphere system that I had built and was using, calibrated as best possible from the original one at work using multiple lights and used as a reference from numerous lights I tested and is now using it to test his own lights that he is creating. When he is ready to publish findings or advertise lights that he is happy with and ready to release you will hear about it directly from him.
> 
> I know that he is working to create a series of lights that will have stable outputs for a given power consumption levels and yield the best lumen levels possible for the size and power level configurations he is working with.
> 
> I believe bigchelis has seen or heard of some of his work. I have not seen any final product yet. But when he comes out with lights I am sure the lumens ratings will be very believable and probably on the conservative side of what they actually put out.


 

Nailbender so far is trying to perfect the SST 90, but the high current am sure is whats holding him up. Things like 9A of current, solder melting the LED off, and heatsink issues...ect.

He did say his P60 drop-ins both in P7 and SST 50 are getting 550ish out the front with the same IS Sphere. This of course is with a IMR single cell and UCL lens 6P type bezel. He is direct driving them to get these numbers, but with Mag light builds and 2.5 drivers his results are more promising. If I recall he is looking for 5A drivers..


BigC


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## Lumen Wizard (Oct 10, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

MrGman - Do you own a sphere or have access to a lab? I am looking to buy a used sphere or rent time on one... are you in the US and where?


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## MrGman (Oct 13, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Lumen Wizard I sent you a pm a few days ago from the time of your post, don't know if you seen it. 

More importantly. My latest video comparing the new Malkoff MD3 host with the Wildcat to other flashlights. This is a very nice size indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x15_OsjF_0I

As mentioned before you can see all my videos of LED flashlishts by simply searching youtube for MrGman9999.

Enjoy.


----------



## Tom H (Oct 19, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

This thread is humongous, but it might be the best place to get an answer to what can be a complex question.

What is a good way to calibrate (DIY-on the cheap) a styrofoam integrating sphere?

I am not a complete newbie to this field as I once measured fluorescence quantum efficiencies of dyed plastic films in a Labsphere custom designed sphere with a monochromator input and spectroradiometer. Well that was when I worked in a Motorola research lab. I don't have Motorola's bucks to spend anymore. Also that was ten years ago, so its all not exactly fresh in my mind.

Now I have a cheap photometer and an eye to buying one of those styrofoam spheres and looking at a few flashlights and other goodies.
I think it would also be a good idea to get some barium sulfate and stew up some home brew high reflectance paint.


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## MrGman (Oct 20, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Tom H said:


> This thread is humongous, but it might be the best place to get an answer to what can be a complex question.
> 
> What is a good way to calibrate (DIY-on the cheap) a styrofoam integrating sphere?
> 
> ...


 
The short answer is you don't want to do it "cheap" You need a good meter that has cosine correction and photopic response filters in it. The meter needs to be at a 90 degree right angle to the port that the light comes in. The only way to "calibrate" it is to put lights of known lumens output into the port and take the "Lux" reading from the meter and then divide by that known lumen reading to get the "divide by constant". 

so if you had a light that was known to be 100 lumens output as tested in a calibrated sphere system, and you put it into yout sphere and it measured 1500 lux, your divide by constant would be 15. If you had a big 16 inch sphere and your 100 lumen light measured 700 lux, your divide by constant would be 7. there's more to it than that but thats the gist of it.


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## Tom H (Oct 20, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Thanks MrGman,

That is kind of what I had figured, but was hoping for something less demanding. A couple years back I was doing some consulting work for a small company that made electroluminescent films. They had a nice, accurate photometer and I looked into calibrating it. The "real solution" included a high stability lamp and power supply to the tune of about $5 K. They decided to put up with the down time and send the photometer back to the factory for calibration.


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## bigchelis (Oct 20, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

We need another IS Sphere in the garage of thruth.

MrGman,

I got the correct smooth V3 reflector for my ROP 2C Mag build. Now the light is super tight and artifact free. It is all good now and I will have 4 popular ROP bulbs to test. 

I promise the beam is M60 smooth:nana:


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## recDNA (Oct 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Hi Gman,

Do you have any reason to believe the lumen reading would be lower on the new Eagletac T20C2 than the T10C2 you got such great numbers for? Have you ever tried either with a diffuser?


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## MrGman (Oct 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



recDNA said:


> Hi Gman,
> 
> Do you have any reason to believe the lumen reading would be lower on the new Eagletac T20C2 than the T10C2 you got such great numbers for? Have you ever tried either with a diffuser?


 
I have not tested the T20C2 but have no reason to believe it would be any dimmer, I would say it would be the same within 5%. I had not put a diffuser on my unit. I have put various diffusers in front of other units and what I find is that they typically cost you at least 8% to 12% of the total lumens output.


----------



## mknewman (Oct 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I have 2 of Nailbender's SST-90's and he is marking them 800 lumens, and yes they do get quite hot. Using my Solarforce Stainless Steel L2 it heats the head up to the point where I cannot hold it in about 10 minutes. It never seems to drop output though. I have the direct drive 3 mode version. 

I like them so much I just bought another.

Marc


----------



## MrGman (Oct 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



mknewman said:


> I have 2 of Nailbender's SST-90's and he is marking them 800 lumens, and yes they do get quite hot. Using my Solarforce Stainless Steel L2 it heats the head up to the point where I cannot hold it in about 10 minutes. It never seems to drop output though. I have the direct drive 3 mode versiosn.
> 
> I like them so much I just bought another.
> 
> Marc


 
Just so you know that any steel is not as good a thermal conductor as Aluminum. It does not conduct heat away from the source as good as Aluminum does. Meaning if you put it in an Aluminum host it would probably heat up your hand faster and pull the heat away from the LED on the substrate faster which means you would probably shut it off sooner for the sake of your hand but it would help keep the LED cooler. 

One thing I have done with some lights I was testing inside of a full host with the back off to run wires to a DC power supply was to wrap the host in a wet paper towel. The heat transfer to the paper towel would dry it out. Same thing with a small hand towel. If you really need to keep it turned on longer and its too hot to handle, a wet towel of some sort will do the trick.


----------



## csshih (Oct 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

MrGman, what's the difference between a photopic response filter and a spectral response filter? My extech HD450 has a spectral filter, supposedly.


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## MrGman (Oct 25, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



csshih said:


> MrGman, what's the difference between a photopic response filter and a spectral response filter? My extech HD450 has a spectral filter, supposedly.


 

I saw that when I looked up your unit. I will check with the engineers at work. I think it should be the same, but you never know anymore. In the meantime contact the place you bought it from and see if they can tell you. I will be on travel and won't be able to get back to you right away. G.


----------



## sfca (Oct 25, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Hey did Fenix change it's lumen rating system over time?
I noticed the Fenix T1 (which is before my time) was rated at "225 peak" vs the claimed 225 lumens.
However the L2D and P1D CE were rated at 145 and 104, versus manufacturers ratings of 180 and 135.

Besides that, MrGman are you still providing the testing service? I would definitely think about sending you a 2-3 lights, after the semester's over and when I've got them all.


----------



## bugsy714 (Oct 26, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I am looking for reading from nailbender's super p7 warm and sst-90 dropins, can anyone point me in the right direction?

Also, how much gain does using a stainless steel bezel provide? I am switching to a ucl lens and wanted to see if the ss bezel ring is worth the $$$


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## outersquare (Nov 1, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

my direct drive SST90 was labeled 850 lumens, i read he has his own measurement sphere.

SST90 spec sheet lists 1K lumens at 3.2A, about what fresh batteries run at, so it's probably accurate..


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## MrGman (Nov 1, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sfca said:


> Hey did Fenix change it's lumen rating system over time?
> I noticed the Fenix T1 (which is before my time) was rated at "225 peak" vs the claimed 225 lumens.
> However the L2D and P1D CE were rated at 145 and 104, versus manufacturers ratings of 180 and 135.
> 
> Besides that, MrGman are you still providing the testing service? I would definitely think about sending you a 2-3 lights, after the semester's over and when I've got them all.


 
I am in a state of flux right now with my job and equipment. I am not providing any testing services at this point in time. The optics lab at work is going away.


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## MrGman (Nov 1, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



outersquare said:


> my direct drive SST90 was labeled 850 lumens, i read he has his own measurement sphere.
> 
> SST90 spec sheet lists 1K lumens at 3.2A, about what fresh batteries run at, so it's probably accurate..


 

If that's from Nailbender, yes he has his own sphere system, those numbers should be very good as believable out the front numbers.


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## mknewman (Nov 3, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Actually I'm running it in a FiveMega 1C body with an IMR 26500 right now. I can run it pretty much indefinately with my hand around the bezel.

Oh, I'm seeing 6.5 amps at the tail using a good Amp meter. I'm hoping FiveMega will do a 26650 body, which should be good for a lot more amps.

Nailbender's drop-ins rock!

Marc



MrGman said:


> Just so you know that any steel is not as good a thermal conductor as Aluminum. It does not conduct heat away from the source as good as Aluminum does. Meaning if you put it in an Aluminum host it would probably heat up your hand faster and pull the heat away from the LED on the substrate faster which means you would probably shut it off sooner for the sake of your hand but it would help keep the LED cooler.
> 
> One thing I have done with some lights I was testing inside of a full host with the back off to run wires to a DC power supply was to wrap the host in a wet paper towel. The heat transfer to the paper towel would dry it out. Same thing with a small hand towel. If you really need to keep it turned on longer and its too hot to handle, a wet towel of some sort will do the trick.


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## bigchelis (Nov 3, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



mknewman said:


> Actually I'm running it in a FiveMega 1C body with an IMR 26500 right now. I can run it pretty much indefinately with my hand around the bezel.
> 
> Oh, I'm seeing 6.5 amps at the tail using a good Amp meter. I'm hoping FiveMega will do a 26650 body, which should be good for a lot more amps.
> 
> ...


 
Nailbender makes great stuff. I would ask him to give you both the turn-on lumens and the 3 minute or 5 minute readings. With 25ish Watts of power in that tiny hosts it would be interesting to see how much is lost due to heat. 

BigC


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## MrGman (Nov 16, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I have been able to test a couple more lights in the integration sphere of truth at work. 

The new Thrunite drop in module in the P60 or D26 size that is an XP-G lamp. Claims 345 lumens which I believe to be bulb or emitter lumens.

Thrunite XP-G____________260__turn on_________2X17500________Solarforce L2 host AR coated glass.
Thrunite XP-G____________251__60 sec,_________2X17500________Solarforce L2 host AR coated glass.
 
With 260 out the front lumens at turn on thats 75% of what the emitter lumens are. considering I am using AR coated glass that still follows the general rule of taking emitter lumens and dropping 30% for out the front lumens when using normal glass or plastic front windows (lens) with no AR coating. Not bad for a medium priced drop in. 
 
Also tested the Quark Titanium Tactical 123 Squared or 2X123 light in the high mode. It turned on at 240 and dropped to 227 after 1 minute using 2XRCR123's from AW. Nice light. It was interesting to note that the head was hot after one minute but the body was cool. The data is mixed in with all the rest of the readings on page 1 of this thread.
 
I like the Thrunite drop in. Thanks to CSSHIH for supplying parts to test.


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## PeaceOfMind (Nov 16, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Very glad to see the Quark Ti XP-G tests, and that the readings are in line with predictions about what the output would be. Thanks for these results!


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## csshih (Nov 19, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Nice to hear some real data on those xpg LEDs!!


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## kramer5150 (Nov 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Thrunite XP-G____________260__turn on_________2X17500________Solarforce L2 host AR coated glass.
> Thrunite XP-G____________251__60 sec,_________2X17500________Solarforce L2 host AR coated glass.




Excellent... Looks like the XP-G is superior to the XRE from a thermal stability as well as output standpoint.

I am going to be running mine at 1.4A in a P60 host, with a smooth reflector.


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## MrGman (Dec 20, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*











This is the Malkoff MD4 Wildcat from just turning it on to letting it run for about 10 minutes sitting on the carpeted floor. The head got to about 42 C and the tail was at 31C. Heat spread from head to tail was pretty uniform. I was just having some fun with the IR camera.


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## LG&M (Dec 20, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

You have a lot of cool toys.


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## joshconsulting (Dec 21, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Would you be interested in testing an L2p with a SST-50 Nailbender 2.5A Regulated dropin once I get it?


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## MrGman (Dec 21, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Would you be interested in testing an L2p with a SST-50 Nailbender 2.5A Regulated dropin once I get it?


 

Emotionally yes, physically no. Personally I don't think your computer would be up to the results if I sent them to you. The processer might fry and the memory might develop Alzheimer's. This is high level stuff, not for the faint of heart with a Windows system.  

Besides what do you need me for? You should be able to see if you can "light" a cigarette with that thing all on your own. I don't smoke. 

Okay I am yanking your chain. 

I am guessing you would want me to test its thermal transfer with the IR camera of truth as well as maybe get some lumens readings in the sphere of truth while I am at it? Problem is my company is shutting down and I am not going to be able to guarantee any testing will get done for you. I only have 2 more days before the holiday shut down and I don't know what will be available after New Year. We are packing up and moving out. 

If you were local to where I am and could just hand me the light tonight (on top of the gourmet pizza that you would be donating to research) I would do it but I am guessing you have to mail them to me and I don't want you to incur shipping costs round trip for a light that may not get tested at all. Most people know that I am allegedly in San Jose California, soon to be somewhere else.


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## joshconsulting (Dec 21, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

When I saw the first line, I was about to respond with a highly inflammatory 5 paragraph diatribe on the nuances of my horribly overpriced and overpowered computer system. Then I realized I had it in my signature and that you were yanking my chain 

Well, far be it from me to be arguing semantics here, but I don't technically have the flashlight with me yet. It's still idling across the Atlantic via the slow boat, AKA HK Air Mail. That and the lovely button-top AW 18650s to power it.

Still, let me know how the whole sphere thing shakes out. I'll want to play with it for at least a week before I can bear to ship it out, so I've got time to sit back until you decide all is well in our spherical world. I'm more interested in the Sphere of a Thousand Truths then the thermal camera, although both are interesting (Right now it's -10 outside, and I can't really see myself melting the flashlight into a puddle of aluminum and various toxic metals during my daily morning mail-walk).

[rant]
In other news, my wonderful Comcast 50 down\10 up connection went belly-up thanks to the massive ice storms here in northern US, so I'm both snowed in and semi-internetless. I hacked my 3GS config file to let me tether my computer to 3G, so I'm currently running on a paltry 2.4 down \ .1 [snicker] up connection. So no big downloading for me, a single HQ youtube video saturates my phone's already overtaxed broadband modem. Hence the long, frustrated ramblings otherwise known as 'posts'.
[/rant]


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## MrGman (Dec 21, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> When I saw the first line, I was about to respond with a highly inflammatory 5 paragraph diatribe on the nuances of my horribly overpriced and overpowered computer system. Then I realized I had it in my signature and that you were yanking my chain
> 
> Well, far be it from me to be arguing semantics here, but I don't technically have the flashlight with me yet. It's still idling across the Atlantic via the slow boat, AKA HK Air Mail. That and the lovely button-top AW 18650s to power it.
> 
> ...


 
The company sphere and I aren't going to the same place. so I will probably never :mecry: ever :mecry: see it :mecry: again. :mecry: therefore testing with it will be over and done. :mecry:

When you get the light simply turn it on and start some global warming with it. Al Goreleoni will probably come over and thank you for starting some truth to his rumor. 

The cooling fan on your confuser probably started that snow storm in the first place. you should be ashamed.  

Big chelis is getting a nailbender sst 50 with a 2.5 amp driver for a Real flashlight, a p60 drop in for any good Solarforce host as opposed to those wimpy SF hosts. Maybe he will have it soon. I need something exciting to do anyway.


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## joshconsulting (Dec 21, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



> The company sphere and I aren't going to the same place. so I will probably never :mecry: ever :mecry: see it :mecry: again. :mecry: therefore testing with it will be over and done. :mecry:


Ouchhhhh. Talk about bad timing.



> When you get the light simply turn it on and start some global warming with it. Al Goreleoni will probably come over and thank you for starting some truth to his rumor.


I'm still slightly unhappy about the triple-P7 P60 dropin, knowing they exist but far out of my pricerange takes some of the joy out of my lovely SST-50. Still, a perfect beam that lasts a while, is blindingly bright, and doesn't melt into a gaseous state after 30 seconds is awesome 



> The cooling fan on your confuser probably started that snow storm in the first place. you should be ashamed.


Which one? There's 19.



> Big chelis is getting a* nailbender sst 50 with a 2.5 amp driver* for a Real flashlight, a p60 drop in for *any good Solarforce host* as opposed to those wimpy SF hosts. Maybe he will have it soon. I need something exciting to do anyway.



Isn't that exactly what I have?


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## MrGman (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Pretty close, not in a 2AA format, but big C is my neighbor. So if he has it he can hand it to me for a quickie test at no cost. If I can't get it done I tell him it got lost at work.


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## joshconsulting (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Pretty close, not in a 2AA format, but big C is my neighbor. So if he has it he can hand it to me for a quickie test at no cost. If I can't get it done I tell him it got lost at work.


Ah. Be sure to let me know the results. Still not clear, though - is his flashlight a 2AA?


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## bigchelis (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Ah. Be sure to let me know the results. Still not clear, though - is his flashlight a 2AA?


 

My hosts is a Solarforce L2 and powered by an IMR 18650 cell with a UCL lens from lighthound.com

Now,
I do have the Javelin AA P60 hosts too. I also have the AA extention to run 3 AA Tenergy 2600mAh cells for it which will be required to get full output with the SST-50 at 2.5A. 

bigC


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## joshconsulting (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> My hosts is a Solarforce L2 and powered by an IMR 18650 cell with a UCL lens from lighthound.com
> 
> Now,
> I do have the Javelin AA P60 hosts too. I also have the AA extention to run 3 AA Tenergy 2600mAh cells for it which will be required to get full output with the SST-50 at 2.5A.
> ...


I'm interested in what the regulated SST-50 does with a single 18650.


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## bigchelis (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> I'm interested in what the regulated SST-50 does with a single 18650.


 
I am interested too..

I am hoping it does 300~400 OTF, but at 2.5A I wonder which sags more the Tenergy AA cells or the IMR 18650:thinking:


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## joshconsulting (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Personally, I'm hoping for closer to 600-700. The GJ bin is rated for 600 at the emitter at 1.75a, and 2.5a should easily make up for the reflector for OTF lummens. Then again, your might not be a GJ bin - the cheap WFs have a hard time hitting 325, and warm-tinted WEs will barely make 250. Do you know the binning of your drop in?


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## bigchelis (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Personally, I'm hoping for closer to 600-700. The GJ bin is rated for 600 at the emitter at 1.75a, and 2.5a should easily make up for the reflector for OTF lummens. Then again, your might not be a GJ bin - the cheap WFs have a hard time hitting 325, and warm-tinted WEs will barely make 250. Do you know the binning of your drop in?


 

I have no idea what bin he uses, he did mention it is cool white and thats all I know. From experience I think 400 would be real generous. Even at 5A 600 OTF lumens would be surprisingly high in a 6P hosts. Now, put it in a Mag D size hosts and I can see the lumens jump drastically. Small hosts are not the best for tons of watts, which is why I choose the 2.5A variant....


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## joshconsulting (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> I have no idea what bin he uses, he did mention it is cool white and thats all I know. From experience I think 400 would be real generous. Even at 5A 600 OTF lumens would be surprisingly high in a 6P hosts. Now, put it in a Mag D size hosts and I can see the lumens jump drastically. Small hosts are not the best for tons of watts, which is why I choose the 2.5A variant....


I don't understand. As long as heat is kept within reason (admittedly, a big issue, but one that has been proven to be manageable in a conductive host with good thermal transfer between heatsink and the head via copper and thermal paste), what is there to stop the bulb from reaching it's rated 600 lummens at 1.75A? From what I've read, LEDs usually match their binning - it's sites like DX that quote a WJ spec and sell a cheaper WF that give the rated lummens a bad name.


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## bigchelis (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> I don't understand. As long as heat is kept within reason (admittedly, a big issue, but one that has been proven to be manageable in a conductive host with good thermal transfer between heatsink and the head via copper and thermal paste), what is there to stop the bulb from reaching it's rated 600 lummens at 1.75A? From what I've read, LEDs usually match their binning - it's sites like DX that quote a WJ spec and sell a cheaper WF that give the rated lummens a bad name.


 

Most people read/use paper specs and the theoritical or potential lumens. If I recall I have seen Arc Manias $$$$$ expensive 6 die lights with 1000 potential OTF lumens barely hit 600 OTF. 

If you PM MrGman he might explain to you the previous test he did on DD SST-50 drop-ins and the outcomes which were 

Regards,
bigC


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## joshconsulting (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Flux binning specs:




Assuming I'm getting a W57S GJ bin, I can expect a minimum of 500 emitter lummens at 1.75A





Source: PhatLight SST-50 Rev. 2 Data Sheet

Based on this chart, 2.5A would give us roughly 135% rated output. Therefore, emitter lummens for a SST-50-W57S-F21-WJ-G4 bulb would be a minimum of 675. Assuming a 25% loss of efficency due to optics, we end up with a minimum of 506 OTF lummens - a spec that should be reasonably accurate, as all but the reflector waste come from factory specs, and reflector waste seems to be generally accepted at 25% for high-quality, 30%-35% for low quality. If we assume that our LED falls at the higher end of the binning spectrum (as Nailbender stated he tried to provide upon request), ideally we would see (600 * 1.35) * .75 = 608 lummens. In other words, the amperage boost over spec should result in rated emitter lummens closely approximating OTF lummens after reflector loss.

In short: A SST-50 should give anywhere from 221 (worst case WE bin) to 608 (best case GJ bin) OTF lummens when driven at 2.5A.

Now, if we tried to feed it 5A, ignoring the obvious overheating problems, we would get a 235% increase, giving us a best-case (600 * 2.35) * .75 = 1058 OTF lummens.

Again, all of this is forgetting about heat and the loss of lummens that result as well as overstatments in the data sheets. But all of it makes me somewhat optimistic that we'd see at least 500 instant OTF from a good WJ bin.

That being said, we could easily get <200 from another LED of the same color bin but inferior flux. So I think binning matters much more then the type of LED - we're talking about a 2.8x variation in brightness from the exact same LED.



> From what most people read is paper specs and the theoritical or potential lumens. If I recall I have seen Arc Manias $$$$$ expensive 6 die lights with 1000 potential OTF lumens barely hit 600 OTF.
> 
> If you PM MrGman he might explain to you the previous test he did on DD SST-50 drop-ins and the outcomes which were
> 
> ...


Darn, I typed up all of the above right before you posted. Hate it when that happens 

Anyway, I still think some of it's relevant. Without knowing the binning and relative brightness of the LED, a generalized comparison of brightness isn't going to do much good - as shown above, a SST-50 could conceviebly push <200 OTF lummens even when driven at 2.5A, and considerably less at stock 1.75A. - and that's under perfect temperate conditions. I think all of this illustrates why budget lights are far from it, despite the semi-hilarious claims from some of the DX lights.

With all that being said, I'm a relative newcomer to the LED world. So there could be large, blatantly obvious factors staring me in the face that I know nothing of. It's my overzealous, over-analytical self trying to pick apart every number, rating, and test result I can get my hands on. And I wonder why it took 100+ hours to choose parts for my desktop 

Feel free to pick apart what I just posted. I'm here to learn, not to upset or argue with people. And I won't be offended in the slightest


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## SCEMan (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Personally, I'm hoping for closer to 600-700. The GJ bin is rated for 600 at the emitter at 1.75a, and 2.5a should easily make up for the reflector for OTF lummens. Then again, your might not be a GJ bin - the cheap WFs have a hard time hitting 325, and warm-tinted WEs will barely make 250. Do you know the binning of your drop in?



Don't know about 600-700 emitter, but my GJ SST-50 DD (SMO) from Nailbinder isn't as bright IMHO as the Dereelight MC-E 2.1A in my CL1H v4. It throws somewhat better, but the overall brightness is lower and not as white.


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## joshconsulting (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



SCEMan said:


> Don't know about 600-700 emitter, but my GJ SST-50 DD (SMO) from Nailbinder isn't as bright IMHO as the Dereelight MC-E 2.1A in my CL1H v4. It throws somewhat better, but the overall brightness is lower and not as white.



There are a lot of variables. Heat dissipation of the host, amperage from the tailcap and batteries etc. It seems highly unlikely that the mc-e would lose to the sst-50; the 50 is rated almost double what the highest mc-e bin, and considerably more then that for some of the lower bins (which deerelight is more likely to use). Color would also confirm that; cooler means brighter, making it even more unusual. If you were using direct drive on the 50, then were talking about 5.5+ amps sent to a cooler light rated 2-3x higher then the mc-e, which is running at half the amperage. It seems unlikely that the mc-e would be noticebly brighter, especally given the number of people who have used it up to now. If you have poor heat conduction in the host, the led could have been damaged.


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## SCEMan (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> There are a lot of variables. Heat dissipation of the host, amperage from the tailcap and batteries etc. It seems highly unlikely that the mc-e would lose to the sst-50; the 50 is rated almost double what the highest mc-e bin, and considerably more then that for some of the lower bins (which deerelight is more likely to use). Color would also confirm that; cooler means brighter, making it even more unusual. If you were using direct drive on the 50, then were talking about 5.5+ amps sent to a cooler light rated 2-3x higher then the mc-e, which is running at half the amperage. It seems unlikely that the mc-e would be noticebly brighter, especally given the number of people who have used it up to now. If you have poor heat conduction in the host, the led could have been damaged.


 
Anything's possible as I have more testing to do. My 18650s may not be up to snuff so that may be part of it as the MCE is running on IMR 16340s. But heat is not an issue as I only ran it for 30s or so. Conductivity, etc also is moot as same host is used for both modules.


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## joshconsulting (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

It's entirely possible that a good-binned MC-E could hit 400-500 OTF, though someone unlikely from an OEM. What seems less likely is that a SST-50 would fail to. I assume it is direct drive; did you measure the amperage at the tailcap? Anything over 2A should be pushing a GJ bin over 400 OTF, at which point the difference would be completely unnoticeable. What 18650 cells are you using? IMR or AW 2600s are by far the best for direct-drive.


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## SCEMan (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> It's entirely possible that a good-binned MC-E could hit 400-500 OTF, though someone unlikely from an OEM. What seems less likely is that a SST-50 would fail to. I assume it is direct drive; did you measure the amperage at the tailcap? Anything over 2A should be pushing a GJ bin over 400 OTF, at which point the difference would be completely unnoticeable. What 18650 cells are you using? IMR or AW 2600s are by far the best for direct-drive.



It's an M bin MC-E which per FlashCrazy's original thread should be around 600+ emitter lumens. 



FlashCrazy said:


> You're correct. I'm just trying to keep everything relatively simple here. According to the MC-E's curve, a 50% increase in drive current from the baseline of 350 mA results in a 40% increase in luminous flux. So based on that, we can say the DBS MC-E is putting out a minimum of 602 emitter lumens. Of course that's not even considering junction temp losses, lens losses, reflector losses, etc. So, everything's really a guess until we get one in a calibrated integrating sphere. Based on all of the above, real out the front lumens _should_ be around 400+ at the start.
> Edit 12-19-08: Tested a bit over 500 lumens in a calibrated integrating sphere.



I think the biggest issue is the SST-50's SMO reflector vs. the MC-E's OP. The spill is brighter with the MC-E's OP and the small shallow P60 SMO reflector doesn't allow the SST-50 to throw as well as an XR-E. 

To test this I put the SST-50 pill in my DBS SMO and what a difference! A whole lot of throw and bright spill. I'm still playing around with focus adjustment but this is the reflector size to really see the SST-50's performance.


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## joshconsulting (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



SCEMan said:


> It's an M bin MC-E which per FlashCrazy's original thread should be around 600+ emitter lumens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your saying that the reflector, not the LED, is limiting OTF lummens? It makes sense. Any chance of getting raw pill vs. P60 reflector vs. large reflector output with the same temps, amps, volts, LED etc.?


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## SCEMan (Dec 23, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I don't think there's any argument that with all other factors being equal, using a larger/deeper, well-designed reflector will increase throw and lumens. 

But there's a never-ending quest for small form factor lights with similar output from P60-size modules.


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## joshconsulting (Dec 23, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



SCEMan said:


> I don't think there's any argument that with all other factors being equal, using a larger/deeper, well-designed reflector will increase throw and lumens.
> 
> But there's a never-ending quest for small form factor lights with similar output from P60-size modules.


It does make me wonder exactly how much on an effect the P60 reflector has, though. If a good reflector loses 25% and a bad 35%, is it possible that a P60 dropin for the SST-50 would lose considerably more?


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## MrGman (Dec 23, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

And what also limits output in small form factor lights is the lack of mass for heatsinking the LED. Since I have been doing this testing for quite a while now I can say that I have seen lights in a P60 size pill that would go into a SF 6P size host drawing more than 12 watts of power, that would turn on instantly at over 600 lumens but could not stay any where near that for 5 seconds. In 30 seconds the output is droping below 400 lumens and in 60 seconds they were in the 350 to 300 lumen range. 

I have done various tests that I have not published the data as it was for prototypes and not finished products. I have said this before that unlike an incandescent lamp, you can't just pump a lot of watts through a LED without sufficient heatsinking to match the consumed wattage or real POWER. The output goes down not up if you exceed that balance or power to heatsinking. The only P60 type modular pill that has the right type of module "shell" to turn the entire pill into one heatsinking and heatspreading thermal mass for something over 5 watts is the Malkoff. That solid brass shell with everything buried in thermal potting compound makes it possible to get maximum thermal transfer from the LED to the module housing out to an Aluminum bodied host. 

Various vendors that are making 600 and above lumen lights are not just putting them into a P60 type pill relying on the reflector and 2 springs to provide thermal transfer to the rest of the flashlight host. They are heatsinking the Die to a bulkhead that is part of the flashlight host. Or in the case of the maglight drop in's, in a heatspreader that makes contact to the entire inside of the bulbous shaped head around its perimeter.

You can even begin to talk about the stated vendor's output curves and efficiencies of luminous output for a given drive current unless you have the heatsinking to back that up and keep the die and the phophors from getting too hot. Phosphor efficiency drops before the LED die's output does itself. 

I have seen peak outputs that were great for the first 100 milliseconds go to squat in less than a minute. Yet the LED did not die or get damaged. shutting it off and turning it back on it would do it again. Because the operator wouldn't let it run for several minutes to where it would burn up and die. But who needs and will appreciate a 100mS high output LED?

My point is don't expect 600 lumen outputs in real world useage in in a 6P or L2 size flashlight from a drop in pill. Not unless some new super thermal conductive material is developed or you just happen to work and use it in my -20 C and below weather all the time.


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## milkyspit (Dec 23, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



SCEMan said:


> I don't think there's any argument that with all other factors being equal, using a larger/deeper, well-designed reflector will increase throw and lumens.
> 
> But there's a never-ending quest for small form factor lights with similar output from P60-size modules.



The larger reflector helps increase the *lux*. Lumens remain the same.


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## SCEMan (Dec 23, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



milkyspit said:


> The larger reflector helps increase the *lux*. Lumens remain the same.


 
Agreed - thanks.


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## joshconsulting (Dec 23, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



> My point is don't expect 600 lumen outputs in real world useage in in a 6P or L2 size flashlight from a drop in pill. Not unless some new super thermal conductive material is developed or you just happen to work and use it in my -20 C and below weather all the time.


I'm not sure. I think there is a lot you can do to extend that 100ms or 5 second time.

Tightly packed thin copper wrapping around the bulb, that fits in very tightly (as in, you have to force it in) while remaining thin enough to bend to the contours of the body, with careful application of MX-3 or AS5 cooling paste, in a solid aluminum body (possibly with a finned head) should have equivalent heat dissipation at least an order of magnitude above what a simple drop-in would - and dozens of times better then a P60 in a Ti host.

And all I want is a 30 second high. For the next 3 months, I will be using it in 0c- weather, so we'll see how heat dissipation does.

Another thing. If the LED's brightness is dropping dramatically in under 5 seconds, the problem lies in the transfer of heat from the LED to the body. The body isn't going to heat up in 5 seconds, but if proper contact is made on all possible surfaces between the LED and the body (admittedly, no easy task), you should be seeing at least 20-30 seconds as the body itself heats up. I think a few steps taken to insure good thermal transfer between the LED and the host should help. It may be a small surface, but right now I'm watching 1 square inch on my GPU waterblock suck out 350 watts of heat while keeping the chip 8c above room temperature. Even 1/16" of proper contact should be enough to pull the heat out of the LED while keeping it under the 60c or so before phosphor efficiency drops dramatically (which would be noticeable as the light turns bluer when the balance shifts as the yellow phosphor output drops.


----------



## sfca (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Tightly packed thin copper wrapping around the bulb, that fits in very tightly (as in, you have to force it in) while remaining thin enough to bend to the contours of the body, with careful application of MX-3 or AS5 cooling paste




More info please!

When you do this you should make a thread with pics and directions, I'm sure I'm not the only one that wants to learn more.


----------



## joshconsulting (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sfca said:


> More info please!
> 
> When you do this you should make a thread with pics and directions, I'm sure I'm not the only one that wants to learn more.



Can do. I know a guy that has plenty of 1/16" copper strips that I could buy to resell. I'll have to see how much the L2p body needs once I get it.


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## sfca (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Any difference between copper strips and the 3M copper tape?


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## joshconsulting (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sfca said:


> Any difference between copper strips and the 3M copper tape?



3m tape really isn't very good for heat transfer. The adhesive backing acts like an insulator - you need pure copper for good thermal contact.


----------



## Norm (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sfca said:


> Any difference between copper strips and the 3M copper tape?


This is what I do Improving heat sinking on P60 style drop ins. - CandlePowerForums
Norm


----------



## recDNA (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

How about measuring the output of the new Quark flashlights?


----------



## MrGman (Dec 30, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



recDNA said:


> How about measuring the output of the new Quark flashlights?


 
Like this one? 

Quark Ti-Tact 123(2)__________240__turn-on____________2XRCR123 AW________Quark on "Highest mode"
Quark Ti-Tact 123(2)__________229__60 sec____________2XRCR123 AW________Quark on "Highest mode".
 
They have such a quirky name though, its hard to take their readings serious 
 
 Is there something newer that's supposed to be more powerful and exciting in the Quirk line up? the Neutron or Antiquark or something?

On the serious side, I don't know how much longer the sphere O truth will be available its moving out of town (out of state too). I haven't wanted anyone to send me more lights.


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## joshconsulting (Dec 30, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I, for one, want to see the results of the 1xRCR123 and CR123.


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## bigchelis (Dec 30, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Like this one?
> 
> Quark Ti-Tact 123(2)__________240__turn-on____________2XRCR123 AW________Quark on "Highest mode"
> Quark Ti-Tact 123(2)__________229__60 sec____________2XRCR123 AW________Quark on "Highest mode".
> ...


 


Wow, those are some serious numbers for such a tiny light made out of Titanium too. 

Thanks for the reading:thumbsup:


----------



## recDNA (Dec 31, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Like this one?
> 
> Quark Ti-Tact 123(2)__________240__turn-on____________2XRCR123 AW________Quark on "Highest mode"
> Quark Ti-Tact 123(2)__________229__60 sec____________2XRCR123 AW________Quark on "Highest mode".
> ...


 

It was the Quark Mini I had in mind. I guess I expected you to be clairvoyant. It's interesting that Quark Ti doesn't beat the Eagletac T10C2 even with the XP-G.

BTW, I missed the Ti readings because I looked at the original list. In the past new readings were edited into the original list in post 1 so I got in the habit of jumping to that list to look for new listings.


----------



## MrGman (Dec 31, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



recDNA said:


> It was the Quark Mini I had in mind. I guess I expected you to be clairvoyant. It's interesting that Quark Ti doesn't beat the Eagletac T10C2 even with the XP-G.
> 
> BTW, I missed the Ti readings because I looked at the original list. In the past new readings were edited into the original list in post 1 so I got in the habit of jumping to that list to look for new listings.


 

These are in the list of post #1 of this entire Thread part Deux (II). If you missed that then you missed a lot of updates entirely. I haven't posted any updates in the original Part I thread since this one got started and that was a long time and many lights ago. 

Don't have a quark mini, no one has volunteered one.


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## 4sevens (Dec 31, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> These are in the list of post #1 of this entire Thread part Deux (II). If you missed that then you missed a lot of updates entirely. I haven't posted any updates in the original Part I thread since this one got started and that was a long time and many lights ago.
> 
> Don't have a quark mini, no one has volunteered one.


I'd be happy to volunteer one


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## csshih (Dec 31, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

speaking of quarks... I have the whole line sent to me for review... :naughty:

preon Is, IIs, quark mini AA/123, quark RGB MC-E.. is the optics lab still open?

though.. it'd probably be better for 4 to send another one.. I'm not through with these yet!


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## bigchelis (Dec 31, 2009)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



csshih said:


> speaking of quarks... I have the whole line sent to me for review... :naughty:
> 
> preon Is, IIs, quark mini AA/123, quark RGB MC-E.. is the optics lab still open?
> 
> though.. it'd probably be better for 4 to send another one.. I'm not through with these yet!


 

I sent MrGman the Eagle Tac AA and Nailbender 2.5A SST-50 for testing, but untill this Monday he will know if the IS Sphere is packed or ready for testing.:candle:

I would really like to see what that RGB MC-E does!!!


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## MrGman (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHHO9S1ST8A

This is an outdoor comparison video of that new Nailbender SST50 LED in a smooth reflectored P60 host that fits into any SF C or P series light or the Solarforce hosts. This runs off of one IMR 18650 battery so now there is a real SST50 available as a drop in for what I would call the standard 2CR123 sized flashlight hosts. Also being compared is the Malkoff MD4 Wildcat, the Nailbender MC-E in a Maglite 2C cell host, The Thrunite XP-G in a SureFire C2 host with extention on 2X17500's and the EagleTac P100A2 with the XP-E smaller emitter which makes for a fairly nice and tight hotspot. They all have nice smooth beams without obnoxious rings or dead spots. I say in the video that the wall is about 35 feet away but I was thinking it was more like 20 yards away.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Is it just me, or does the EagleTac have a [very] slight doughnut hole?


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## MrGman (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Is it just me, or does the EagleTac have a [very] slight doughnut hole?


 

Its just you. This thing has a nice tight beam.


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## rmteo (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Is it just me, or does the EagleTac have a [very] slight doughnut hole?



You could measure it to find out for sure.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Nah, it's just something I thought I noticed in the video, but it would be easier to spot in real life - if mrgman doesn't see it, I was probably imagining it. But wow, that is a very tight beam. Is the md4 wildcat significantly brighter then the sst-50? It seemed that way in the video, but it's harder to tell with floody lights.


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## bigchelis (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Nah, it's just something I thought I noticed in the video, but it would be easier to spot in real life - if mrgman doesn't see it, I was probably imagining it. But wow, that is a very tight beam. Is the md4 wildcat significantly brighter then the sst-50? It seemed that way in the video, but it's harder to tell with floody lights.


 


The wildcat does over 600ish OTF lumens and the SST-50 w/ 2.5A driver is definetely not as bright. 

bigC


----------



## SCEMan (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I put my Nailbender SST-50 DD 2.8A in a DBS with SMO reflector and it's much brighter with a tight hotspot compared to using it in the original P60 SMO dropin which was mostly flood. 

Tint on these SST-50s isn't as white which also affects comparisons.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



SCEMan said:


> I put my Nailbender SST-50 DD 2.8A in a DBS with SMO reflector and it's much brighter with a tight hotspot compared to using it in the original P60 SMO dropin which was mostly flood.
> 
> Tint on these SST-50s isn't as white which also affects comparisons.



I saw you mention this before, but I don't quite understand. How is it brighter with a different reflector? Obviously it will throw farther with a deep reflector, but I don't understand how it could be significantly brighter with a deep reflector - if anything, it should be dimmer. I agree about the tint - I personally think a bluish tint makes it look dimmer to me.


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## MrGman (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



rmteo said:


> You could measure it to find out for sure.


 

The neighbors house is grey not white. The camera in movie mode is autocompensating or trying to every second. I have checked out the beam of this little flashlight very thoroughly. There is no donut hole in the beam pattern. It has a very sharp corona in contrast to the spill. This is a great little 2AA thrower. Its not mine, it wasn't a gift, this is not a free bono type ad. I am testing it for bigchelis. Hopefully by tomorrow night I will have IS readings on this P100A2 and the Nailbender 2.5A driven SST50, which is consuming about 9 watts of power but not as bright as the Wildcat (which does consume more). 

Lets just say that as is the case with most videos and still photo shots, they don't do the beams good enough justice.


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## MrGman (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> I saw you mention this before, but I don't quite understand. How is it brighter with a different reflector? Obviously it will throw farther with a deep reflector, but I don't understand how it could be significantly brighter with a deep reflector - if anything, it should be dimmer. I agree about the tint - I personally think a bluish tint makes it look dimmer to me.


 

A deeper reflector that concentrates more of the total light into the hotspot makes the hotspot brighter. If you take 300 lumens that is spread out over 20 degrees and then put it into a reflector that focuses down into a 10 degree spread it will be brighter in that 10 degree spread. The lux numbers go up in the hotspot which is what your eyes tell you. That's why a lot of guys love throwers.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> A deeper reflector that concentrates more of the total light into the hotspot makes the hotspot brighter. If you take 300 lumens that is spread out over 20 degrees and then put it into a reflector that focuses down into a 10 degree spread it will be brighter in that 10 degree spread. The lux numbers go up in the hotspot which is what your eyes tell you. That's why a lot of guys love throwers.


I understand the throw part - I think I just misinterpreted brightness - I assumed he meant overall brightness, which would be quite unlikely to improve with a deeper reflector.

I'm very interested into IS readings for the SST50. Is there any way you could find out what binning it is (i.e. contacting Nailbdnder) if it isn't GJ? I'd like to correlate actual OTF readings to flux numbers by bin to try and get a better guess at what these are putting out. Given that it's almost identical to mine (which should arrive Monday :ironic with a 2.5A driver, SMO reflector and P60 host. I'd like to know instant on, 10 second, 30 second, and 60 second readings, if possible - even better if you got a few with heatsinking to see if it's heat or battery sag that drops brightness.


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## SCEMan (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> A deeper reflector that concentrates more of the total light into the hotspot makes the hotspot brighter. If you take 300 lumens that is spread out over 20 degrees and then put it into a reflector that focuses down into a 10 degree spread it will be brighter in that 10 degree spread. The lux numbers go up in the hotspot which is what your eyes tell you. That's why a lot of guys love throwers.



You've described what I'm seeing - thanks. It's a little difficult to compare LED (or incans, etc) beams when the reflector sizes and types vary...

Your video was very helpful - now I see that my SST-50 tint isn't abnormal.


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## MrGman (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6f0-pszN-E

Indoor video comparing the Thrunite XP-G in a Surefire C2, Eagletac P100A2, Malkoff M60 in MD2, Nailbender SST50 against the drapes with a couple of pretend perps to add some color and detail. Targets are about 22 feet away from camera. Enjoy


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## joshconsulting (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6f0-pszN-E
> 
> Indoor video comparing the Thrunite XP-G in a Surefire C2, Eagletac P100A2, Malkoff M60 in MD2, Nailbender SST50 against the drapes with a couple of pretend perps to add some color and detail. Targets are about 22 feet away from camera. Enjoy


All I'm getting is 'an error has occurred. Please try again later'. I'm assuming it's still loading...
(yes, I'm way to impatient. But I really need to go to bed soon )

EDIT: Non-HQ is now up, still waiting on HQ

EDIT2: Watched, nice video. One other request: when you test output of the SST-50 with the L2, could you get numbers with and without a lens? According to rumors, the sapphire coating on the L2\L2p is thicker then most and loses 7-9% vs. the usual 4-5% (hence why I got an UCL lens that's supposed to be <1%). Just curious how much of a difference there actually is.


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## MrGman (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> All I'm getting is 'an error has occurred. Please try again later'. I'm assuming it's still loading...
> (yes, I'm way to impatient. But I really need to go to bed soon )
> 
> EDIT: Non-HQ is now up, still waiting on HQ


 

I am getting the same error but also can see it in non HQ mode. So hopefully it will be ready in HQ mode by tomorrow morning. Yes you are far too impatient, I just uploaded it and its got 28 hits in a matter of minutes relax on that mouse button. 

Anyway all of these lights put out a very good "blinding" amount of light indoors on what would be a possible "bad guy's" eyes. The camera image gets washed out as its trying to auto adjust the brightness when its just one powerful light right in the center of the viewing and sensing axis. And that's a reflection off of drapes, not a white wall or a mirror. Hopefully this will work better in the morning, if not I will try to reload it. 

On a separate note I believe the SST50 will have a lot of possibilities once we get a good regulated driver for it that can run it at 3 amps to the LED and run off higher voltage battery set ups so that the battery current will be lower and run time longer. A deeper reflector to yield a tighter beam but fit inside of a P60 set up will be very handy to have. It can run with a very smooth reflector and not worry about donut holes due to the nature of the solid die not quad dice with a + separation.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I agree on the convenience of the single die emitter, the donught hole is highly irritating to me - the center is almost always where I'm pointing the light unless I'm going for pure flood, so a great thrower with an obvious donught hole is a huge dissapointment.

So far, from what I've seen the SST series doesn't seem to be too much more efficient then previous generations - it is on one die, but it produces only a little more light and a little less heat at the same wattage. The real advantage seems that it can take the current - the SST90 has no problem with 9 amps, and as I've mentioned before can break 2k lummens without a sweat, something previously only accomplished with at least a 2xP7 setup.

It seems to me that LED tech is evolving faster then batteries - once the heat problem is alleviated, LED manufactures will have to focus on more efficient lummens instead of brighter lights as the batteries simply can't handle the stress. It's the same thing we're seeing in cell phones and other electronics. Thankfully, I use my lights more for the showing off\rare occasion then regular usage, so I'd love a P60 sized 2k+ lummen light that lasted 2-3 minutes on fresh batteries. But I'm afraid I'm a minority here


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## bigchelis (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> I agree on the convenience of the single die emitter, the donught hole is highly irritating to me - the center is almost always where I'm pointing the light unless I'm going for pure flood, so a great thrower with an obvious donught hole is a huge dissapointment.
> 
> So far, from what I've seen the SST series doesn't seem to be too much more efficient then previous generations - it is on one die, but it produces only a little more light and a little less heat at the same wattage. The real advantage seems that it can take the current - the SST90 has no problem with 9 amps, and as I've mentioned before can break 2k lummens without a sweat, something previously only accomplished with at least a 2xP7 setup.
> 
> It seems to me that LED tech is evolving faster then batteries - once the heat problem is alleviated, LED manufactures will have to focus on more efficient lummens instead of brighter lights as the batteries simply can't handle the stress. It's the same thing we're seeing in cell phones and other electronics. Thankfully, I use my lights more for the showing off\rare occasion then regular usage, so I'd love a P60 sized 2k+ lummen light that lasted 2-3 minutes on fresh batteries. But I'm afraid I'm a minority here


 

Nailbender has built 2 SST-90 Mag builds that were tested in his IS Sphere, which MrGman calibrated for him.

Nailbender told me direct drive with a D size heatsink and 9A of current running of 3 D NiMH Tenergy cells the instant peak lumens were 1800ish OTF. With 2 18650 in a Mag D size hosts (parrell holders for the cells) also direct drive it made 1500ish OTF instant peak. Now, keep in mind this is instant peak and at 9A of initial current the direct drive nature of the beast means those numbers are unsustainable. Nailbender did not mention how fast the OTF lumens drop or what he got after a couple seconds. 

There are some current drivers being made for 9A and 10A in which case at least the current will be constant and the heat will definitely get the best of the potential lumens. Moddamag mentioned while at his BBQ meet that he tested several Mag D size builds and he found them to be the most efficient at 10 watts max and my 28Watt LED builds did suffer in the OTF department terribly. In fact, even my Malkoff Tripple Mag drop-in at only 12~15 watts could not keep the 686 OTF numbers and at 3 minutes lost over 100 OTF lumens too.

bigC


----------



## milkyspit (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Guys, just dropping by and wanted to offer some thoughts on parts of your comments. I don't particularly fall on one side or another in terms of this or that LED; it's my philosophy that various LEDs will serve in specific circumstances, and the goal is understanding where each excels vs. falls flat. Anyway...



joshconsulting said:


> I agree on the convenience of the single die emitter, the donught hole is highly irritating to me - the center is almost always where I'm pointing the light unless I'm going for pure flood, so a great thrower with an obvious donught hole is a huge dissapointment.



Tolerance of a donut hole is a personal matter and IMHO not even up for debate... we like what we like! And your preference is for a very clean beam, I can respect that. I do think it's important for folks reading this to realize there is a wide variance in degree of donut hole in a beam, it's not a one size fits all kind of thing. Some are larger diameter, some smaller. Some are a stark black while others are merely a little less intense than the rest of the hotspot. Some are evident at all distances, others only at longer distances or in still other cases, disappear entirely at distance. Just using lights within arm's reach here in the Milky Labs I can demonstrate at least a half-dozen distinct flavors of donut hole in a beam.



joshconsulting said:


> So far, from what I've seen the SST series doesn't seem to be too much more efficient then previous generations - it is on one die, but it produces only a little more light and a little less heat at the same wattage. The real advantage seems that it can take the current - the SST90 has no problem with 9 amps, and as I've mentioned before can break 2k lummens without a sweat, something previously only accomplished with at least a 2xP7 setup.



From what I've seen of the manufacturers' datasheets as well as testing at various output currents by jtr1962 and others, the SST90 is actually *less* efficient in many cases, relative to alternatives. The Cree XP-G and even the Cree MC-E do a fine job on efficiency... the SST falls far behind those at lower output currents and only closes the gap, then eventually surpasses those, at much higher currents... but then, the higher currents would have the other LEDs pushed close to their max spec and beyond. To me, the true value of the SST90 isn't so much its efficiency, but rather its ability to scale to such high current without failing... that plus its ability to focus reasonably well without a donut hole in the beam. If efficiency alone is the goal, I'd go with multiple XP-G emitters in a heartbeat and would destroy the SST90 in terms of lumens per watt.

BTW, that 9A capability for the SST90 is a mixed blessing: it's great that a single chip can scale that high; but there are very few circuits and power sources that can keep up with a 9A output! Toss in the size constraint of something like a drop-in and the number of circuits capable of strictly-regulated 9A output current drops to zero.



joshconsulting said:


> It seems to me that LED tech is evolving faster then batteries - once the heat problem is alleviated, LED manufactures will have to focus on more efficient lummens instead of brighter lights as the batteries simply can't handle the stress. It's the same thing we're seeing in cell phones and other electronics. Thankfully, I use my lights more for the showing off\rare occasion then regular usage, so I'd love a P60 sized 2k+ lummen light that lasted 2-3 minutes on fresh batteries. But I'm afraid I'm a minority here



I've been interested in this direction since becoming a modder... in fact, it's that sort of efficiency concern that drove me to become a modder in the first place!  I was looking for an extremely efficient, predictable, low maintenance form of household lighting to use during power outages, which sadly we get quite regularly where I live.  The result was the Milky Candle, which itself has progressed through several iterations. Then I pursued the same concept in higher-powered lights, with the result being the Project-M lights. Many of my other projects (Creemator for example) either build on these projects or implement parts of the solution by other approaches. Anyway you're right to say LED technology is outstripping the advancement of the power source itself. I see no change in that trend anytime soon... the power source is going to be the bottleneck for the foreseeable future. There are some things to be done in small ways that collectively could make a substantial difference, along the same lines as all the little power conservation steps a modern laptop computer or cell phone will take... but to keep making lights brighter, at some point the lights have to get larger or the runtimes have to shrink... and the latter doesn't make much sense beyond a certain limit... who (other than us) wants to use a light with runtime of 30 seconds? 



bigchelis said:


> Nailbender told me direct drive with a D size heatsink and 9A of current running of 3 D NiMH Tenergy cells the instant peak lumens were 1800ish OTF. With 2 18650 in a Mag D size hosts (parrell holders for the cells) also direct drive it made 1500ish OTF instant peak. Now, keep in mind this is instant peak and at 9A of initial current the direct drive nature of the beast means those numbers are unsustainable. Nailbender did not mention how fast the OTF lumens drop or what he got after a couple seconds.



I don't think those power sources are reaching the full 9A for more than a second or two when the light is first turned on and the cells have just come off the charger. That's the problem with a 9A current draw... it's tough to satisfy even from what ordinarily would be some very sturdy cells! 



bigchelis said:


> There are some current drivers being made for 9A and 10A in which case at least the current will be constant and the heat will definitely get the best of the potential lumens. Moddamag mentioned while at his BBQ meet that he tested several Mag D size builds and he found them to be the most efficient at 10 watts max and my 28Watt LED builds did suffer in the OTF department terribly. In fact, even my Malkoff Tripple Mag drop-in at only 12~15 watts could not keep the 686 OTF numbers and at 3 minutes lost over 100 OTF lumens too.



A drop-in is not the best way to manage that amount of heat... there's too little metal, too many seams, and too much air throughout that impedes efficient thermal flow. I'm sure Nailbender does what he can but the problem isn't the guy building the drop-in, it's the drop-in itself. (I count Nailbender among my friends and we chat regularly. He's a good guy.) The drop-in was engineered to match the fit of an incandescent lamp assembly in a flashlight designed to handle incandescent bulbs... the incan radiates heat out the front of the light whereas an LED conducts it out the back, and the design just does not translate very well. Up to a point that's okay... but not at the extreme wattage of something like an SST! 

Mag builds hold the potential of doing better, but a module designed to fit into a Mag bulb post is going to compromise some of the thermal transfer, too... in that sense it becomes a little like the drop-in conundrum.

Well, enough from me. Didn't mean to be so long-winded. Sorry for temporarily hijacking the thread, MrGman.


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## MrGman (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Its all good info and perspective, Milky, so no need to feel guilty. On the road to truth there are many scenic pitstops (aka reality checks) along the way.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I still wonder if it's heat or battery sag that would cause lummen drops in a SST-50 P60 dropin. According to Nailbender, his attempts to improve heat transfer (potting\various metal and thermal paste combinations) didn't really do much for output, but he was talking about direct drive lights which would be far more affected by battery sag.

Perhaps this is a better question: Can AWs 18650 cells handle a 2.5A draw? Nowdays, it seems like they can achieve 4.5A, at least fresh off the charger, for a few minutes - the IMR cells are no longer needed. I'm assuming they can deliver 2.5A for at least half their runtime; if that's the case, then heat would be the only factor causing a drop after instant lummens.

Again, I think that's something that we can help a lot in a P60 dropin. It is true that they are a poor design for heat conductivity, but the mere fact that we're seeing 500+ OTF lasting lummens from them with 12-14w of dissipation seems to show that with improvement it can still handle the latest LED's heat. Wrapping the module in very tight fitting aluminum strips that conform to the host body and P60 module, with a small amount of AS5 on each side, should transfer heat far better then a loosely fitting head with a large blanket of air.

Direct heatsink to copper heat transfer is very efficient; we've got a reasonably large surface area around the reflector to work with, and surprisingly little surface area is needed. As mentioned before, my i7 CPU dissipates 200 watts of heat in approx. 1 square inch, with a rise of only 40c. True, that's a perfectly flat slab pasted to a large block of raw copper, but if we could even get 1/10th that amount of surface area, I think heat transfer to the host body could be fairly efficient. Once the heat is on the outside of the flashlight, your hand should be able to handle 15w+ without too much trouble.


----------



## milkyspit (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Perhaps this is a better question: Can AWs 18650 cells handle a 2.5A draw?



A lithium-ion cell can safely discharge at a rate of 2C, where C is the cell's capacity. An IMR cell can discharge up to 8C, possibly a little more. There will be voltage sag under heavy load, with the IMR sagging less than the regular 18650.

Here's the thing. A lithium-ion cell will discharge along a known voltage-over-time graph. The sag will pull down the voltage but the curve will still look largely the same. Describing the curve in words, it begins around 4.2V and drops steadily in the first 15% or so of runtime, then plateaus around 3.7V for roughly 70% runtime, and finally falls off a cliff in the last 15% of runtime. If the light's output drops more steeply than the curve for a lithium-ion cell, it's likely the difference is a result of heat buildup. That's somewhat of an oversimplification but at least gives some general idea.



joshconsulting said:


> Again, I think that's something that we can help a lot in a P60 dropin. It is true that they are a poor design for heat conductivity, but the mere fact that we're seeing 500+ OTF lasting lummens from them with 12-14w of dissipation seems to show that with improvement it can still handle the latest LED's heat. Wrapping the module in very tight fitting aluminum strips that conform to the host body and P60 module, with a small amount of AS5 on each side, should transfer heat far better then a loosely fitting head with a large blanket of air.



An LED continues to produce light even when running at extremely high temperatures, but the output gets "derated" due to the chip temperature. The heat doesn't cause an outright failure as it does with a CPU... well, at least not until later... but the output very definitely is adversely effected, unlike a CPU. The analogy would be a CPU that ran slower and slower as its internal temperature increased.

Anyway, all that work (and mess) with the sleeving and AS5 and such may help some... it deserves some careful study under controlled conditions. I suspect the effectiveness will be limited by the drop-in concept itself, which utterly lacks any meaningful inclusion of LED thermodynamics in its engineering. It's a little like cooling one's house in the summer by tossing ice cubes all over the living room floor, and when that doesn't work well enough, using another four refrigerators so one can freeze four times more ice to toss on the living room floor all at once. Why not just install a window air conditioner instead?

I can get on-board with drop-ins for many reasons, foremost among them compatibility and convenience... but thermal efficiency isn't one of them, any more than a person chooses to drive a full sized SUV for the gas mileage.



joshconsulting said:


> Direct heatsink to copper heat transfer is very efficient; we've got a reasonably large surface area around the reflector to work with, and surprisingly little surface area is needed. As mentioned before, my i7 CPU dissipates 200 watts of heat in approx. 1 square inch, with a rise of only 40c. True, that's a perfectly flat slab pasted to a large block of raw copper, but if we could even get 1/10th that amount of surface area, I think heat transfer to the host body could be fairly efficient. Once the heat is on the outside of the flashlight, your hand should be able to handle 15w+ without too much trouble.



The emitting surface of the SST50 chip is 0.0078 sq. in. and at 15W power (which is significantly underdriven vs. the chip's spec) it's the equivalent of 1923W in the same 1 square inch surface, vs. the 200W of the i7. The i7 heatsink also uses heat pipes and/or a cooling fan, plus upwards of 1 pound of metal with a large number of oversized fins. The entire flashlight weighs perhaps 1/3 pound with no heat pipes, no fan, no fins, several metal-to-metal or glue-to-metal junctions and a blanket of dead air, all of which impede thermal transfer... and if the LED sees 40C temperature rise the resulting lumens will be significantly derated. It probably sees more.

Again, drop-ins can be useful and we are blessed to have a number of good ones available to us these days. They deliver on many desirable attributes. Thermal efficiency isn't one of them.


----------



## MrGman (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Okay here are some quick reading results that I will post to the table on page 1 later.

The Eagletac P100A2 put out 156 lumens on high at 0 seconds and after 3 minutes held to 151 lumens. So it was very consistent and stable but not high in output. On low it held 51 lumens steady.

The Nailbender put out 470 lumens at turn on, since its a 3 mode unit and I have to step through from low to high, it its not possible to capture the instantaneous "peak" reading. At 1 minute its down to 430 lumens, at 2 minutes its down to 416 lumens and at 3 minutes its down to 407 lumens, at 4 minutes its at 405 lumens. Not bad at all. Holding over 400 lumens output for 4 minutes.

On low its 19 lumens, on medium its 141 lumens.

Current draw from a DC power supply at 3.75V is 2.65A for a total of 9.94 watts. Meausrements in the sphere were using the IMR battery. Turn on current draw from that with a fresh charge were 2.86A so I have to believe the voltage is sagging below 3.75V as it did show some regulation when I was testing it with the DC supply. So that's what it cost to start at 470 lumens and hold to 407 lumens. In usages of under a minute you are holding over 430 lumens for just under 10 watts consumed power. So 43 lumens per watt roughly in a 6P size flashlight running off of one IMR18650 style battery for short duration applications, no worse than 40 lumens a watt for 4 minute steady state runs. Not a bad little power house. 

I don't know what full run time would be and not the guy to sit there and measure it.


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## bigchelis (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Okay here are some quick reading results that I will post to the table on page 1 later.
> 
> 
> The Nailbender put out 470 lumens at turn on, since its a 3 mode unit and I have to step through from low to high, it its not possible to capture the instantaneous "peak" reading. At 1 minute its down to 430 lumens, at 2 minutes its down to 416 lumens and at 3 minutes its down to 407 lumens, at 4 minutes its at 405 lumens. Not bad at all. Holding over 400 lumens output for 4 minutes.
> ...


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## joshconsulting (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

@ mrgman: Was that with heatsinking (fan/hand), or was it simply sitting there? That's impressively little drop, more so if it wasn't heatsinked. Do you have any readings without a lens? If the l2 really is blocking 8-9%, we could be seeing 500+ lummens OTF with a UCL.

@milky: I'll respond when I'm at a computer instead of my iPhone so I can type faster then 30 WPM


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## bigchelis (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> @ mrgman: Was that with heatsinking (fan/hand), or was it simply sitting there? That's impressively little drop, more so if it wasn't heatsinked. Do you have any readings without a lens? If the l2 really is blocking 8-9%, we could be seeing 500+ lummens OTF with a UCL.
> 
> @milky: I'll respond when I'm at a computer instead of my iPhone so I can type faster then 30 WPM


 

My Solarforce L2 has both a flat stainless steel bezel and a UCL lens from lighthound.com. I will leave test conditions to MrGman to explain.

bigC


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## MrGman (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> @ mrgman: Was that with heatsinking (fan/hand), or was it simply sitting there? That's impressively little drop, more so if it wasn't heatsinked. Do you have any readings without a lens? If the l2 really is blocking 8-9%, we could be seeing 500+ lummens OTF with a UCL.
> 
> @milky: I'll respond when I'm at a computer instead of my iPhone so I can type faster then 30 WPM


 
There was no fan and no hand holding. The straight cylindrical part of the tube is sitting on an Aluminum block for support. After 4 minutes I picked the unit up and it wasn't all that hot. The head area is free floating in front of the IS. We do have copper foil tape around the P60 module inside to help snug it up into the L2 host better than it normally would be. Is it as tight and have the best possible thermal transfer that it could have, no. Is it better than just relying on the springs and the rim of the reflector, yes. It appears to be working very well considering 10 watts of power through that module. This output is higher and more stable than it was at twice the current in direct drive and its definitely not nearly as hot.


----------



## joshconsulting (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I wouldn't have expected it to transfer as nicely through the tape adhesive, but obviously your doing something right (although heatsinking wouldn't affect inital lummens). Now the only thing left to do is find the lummen spread throughout the GJ bins, though it's unlikely you'll ever test another if your getting rid of the sphere


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## sunsoar (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Interesting; perhaps the battery vs power supply numbers eg nailbender p7 post 1 shed some light on this? 

Using a variable power supply & several intervals for testing might yield an optimal balance of amp draw vs heat for a given emitter build?

I like this thread :thumbsup:




joshconsulting said:


> I still wonder if it's heat or battery sag that would cause lummen drops in a SST-50 P60 dropin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MrGman (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> I wouldn't have expected it to transfer as nicely through the tape adhesive, but obviously your doing something right (although heatsinking wouldn't affect inital lummens). Now the only thing left to do is find the lummen spread throughout the GJ bins, though it's unlikely you'll ever test another if your getting rid of the sphere


 

Not getting rid of it. the company is shutting down the San Jose facility, so the optics group and equipment is moving to one state, and my failure analysis lab with me is moving to another, to different facilities but still part of the same corporation. So I will never see that IS again and won't be anywhere near an optics lab to play with one.


----------



## joshconsulting (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

And now that I'm at a computer:




milkyspit said:


> An LED continues to produce light even when running at extremely high temperatures, but the output gets "derated" due to the chip temperature. The heat doesn't cause an outright failure as it does with a CPU... well, at least not until later... but the output very definitely is adversely effected, unlike a CPU. The analogy would be a CPU that ran slower and slower as its internal temperature increased.


To be more specific, at above-factory clocks that push the limits on clock timing cycles, increases in temperature allow electrons to jump pathways more easily - increasing the error rate for calculations. A 'stable' chip generally has an error in less than 1/1,500,000,000,000,000 operations, but a 5c temperature rise can easily drop that to 1/480,000,000,000,000, which is completely unacceptable. The error rate will continue to rise until the tJmax thermal limit is hit (100c on virtually all chips; on a few specialized ones, like my D0 stepping "b" series i7 920, it can be as low as 92). So it still matters in output; a slight temperature rise carries a considerable penalty in terms of error rate. Hence why us overclockers keep lower temperatures for a lower error rate at faster clock cycles.

Sorry for the way too detailed response 




milkyspit said:


> Anyway, all that work (and mess) with the sleeving and AS5 and such may help some... it deserves some careful study under controlled conditions. I suspect the effectiveness will be limited by the drop-in concept itself, which utterly lacks any meaningful inclusion of LED thermodynamics in its engineering. It's a little like cooling one's house in the summer by tossing ice cubes all over the living room floor, and when that doesn't work well enough, using another four refrigerators so one can freeze four times more ice to toss on the living room floor all at once. Why not just install a window air conditioner instead?


Because the window air conditioner requires cutting a window in the wall, entailing great expense and hassle. In flashlight terms, moving away from a P60 host means you won't be able to lego and you'll pay a huge premium for every light,, as they will be essentially custom made. Most CPFers would rather spending 10 mintues ensuring a good thermal coupling. If it solves, or at least delays the problem, why not?




milkyspit said:


> I can get on-board with drop-ins for many reasons, foremost among them compatibility and convenience... but thermal efficiency isn't one of them, any more than a person chooses to drive a full sized SUV for the gas mileage.



I agree - it's just that moving away from them means that every light is a custom-machined AL host fitted to your light. Looking around the forum, we would be paying $400+ for a body.




milkyspit said:


> The emitting surface of the SST50 chip is 0.0078 sq. in. and at 15W power (which is significantly underdriven vs. the chip's spec) it's the equivalent of 1923W in the same 1 square inch surface, vs. the 200W of the i7. The i7 heatsink also uses heat pipes and/or a cooling fan, plus upwards of 1 pound of metal with a large number of oversized fins. The entire flashlight weighs perhaps 1/3 pound with no heat pipes, no fan, no fins, several metal-to-metal or glue-to-metal junctions and a blanket of dead air, all of which impede thermal transfer... and if the LED sees 40C temperature rise the resulting lumens will be significantly derated. It probably sees more.



I guess I didn't make the analogy clear enough. First, a little background: The 1 inch I am referring to is the top of the integrated heat sink (IHS). The actual chip is sandwiched between the PIN circutboard and the IHS. The chip itself is far smaller than the IHS; the IHS is soldered onto the chip, with very little resistance with the solder, so the IHS has room to make contact with the cooling block. The cooling block (at least in my example) has cold water circulated through it, cooling off the top of the copper block while heat is draw up from the chip, through the soldered IHS, over the boundary between the IHS and the copper block, and into the water.

In my analogy, the emitter is the CPU chip - a tiny chip, soldered to a big heatsink (the reflector). I'm assuming heat is transferred fairly efficiently between the emitter and the reflector; if it wasn't, any LED would cook no matter what the size of the host was. The body of the flashlight is the cooling block, and your hand is the water that cools the block. In a flashlight, the heat is transferred from the emitter to the reflector easily and efficiently; as long as you’re holding the flashlight, the heat is transferred from the body of the flashlight to your body (blood counts as an active coolant!) through your hand. The main resistance comes from the boundary between the reflector and the flashlight body; in a typical dropin, good contact is only made around the rim and the base. But with copper\aluminum wrap around the bottom half of the reflector, you can make 1"+ of contact, which should allow effective heat transfer to the body where your hand can dispel the rest.


milkyspit said:


> Again, drop-ins can be useful and we are blessed to have a number of good ones available to us these days. They deliver on many desirable attributes. Thermal efficiency isn't one of them.



I agree. Dropins, like you mentioned, weren't designed to dispel heat from the reflector. However, with a good thermal element between the reflector and body that fits snugly with a small amount of thermal paste on either side should act as an effective band-aid, at least dispelling up to the limit of our hands (which varies depending on size, but I would guess is from 20-45+w)


----------



## bigchelis (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Hi MrGman,

I should have this potted XP-G R4 today if you want to give it a visual inspection. I will try not to kill it untill you check it out. (inside joke) 








It is potted so with a ton of the 3M cooper tape and powered by the infamous IMR 18650 it should be a good light. I want to see it in action against the Trunight XP-G 260 lumen drop-in you have. The TruNight XP-G R5 did really well at 260, but his one is potted:naughty:








We can do a XP-G P60 shoot-out:touche:

XP-G R4 from Nailbender with 1.2A
XP-G from Trunight tested at 260 OTF and 1A
XP-G at 1.4A The Potted version in the Custom/BST section By: Anto
bigC


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## MrGman (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

The XP-G that I measured at 260 OTF lumens belongs to CSSHIH. Mine only put out about 230 OTF lumens. His was noticeably brighter than my Malkoff M60s and mine is about on par. I was sadly disappointed but its still an all around good module. I am wondering if they at Thrunight (put the h back in there when you write it) cherrypicked the one they sent to CS for review. Mine was purchased run of the mill from Lighthound dot com. I was tempted to buy 10 and test them all, keep the best and sell the rest but didn't. I was hoping they would be more consistent.

Anyway in regards to the shootout, since mine isn't the 260 OTF lumen screamer, chances are it won't be the winner. Definitely want to see but do have other things to do as well.


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## sfca (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> XP-G R4 from Nailbender with 1.2A
> XP-G from Trunight tested at 260 OTF and 1A
> *XP-G at 1.4A The Potted version in the Custom/BST section By: Anto*
> bigC



I'd definitely like to see this!!
Without the 3M tape first.


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## bigchelis (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sfca said:


> I'd definitely like to see this!!
> Without the 3M tape first.


 


I don't know about taking off the cooper tape:thinking:

I also just got the 1.2V~4.2v P60 XP-G R4 drop-in from Nailbender to throw in the mix. It is pulling a solid 3.5A from 2 Tenergy AA cells.

Combined voltage measured 2.5v and after 5 minutes of being on in the Dereelight Javelin it gets hot. The body, AA cells, and the bezel all get hot. It may be a faulty P60 drop-in as the current seems way too high. I expected 1.8A~2A at the tail, but not anything above 3A..

If MrGman wants he can for sure test this hot AA drop-in too.:devil:


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## MrGman (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

big C you know I want to test those lights, you are going to have to drop them off to me, quick.

Also I updated the complete set of test data from today on page one on the big list of lumens readings. I want to point out that the readings of the Nailbender SST in the sphere were with the IMR battery. It draws 2.86 amps at turn on with a fresh charge. So I give it about a 20 minute run time best guess, on high.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> big C you know I want to test those lights, you are going to have to drop them off to me, quick.
> 
> Also I updated the complete set of test data from today on page one on the big list of lumens readings. I want to point out that the readings of the Nailbender SST in the sphere were with the IMR battery. It draws 2.86 amps at turn on with a fresh charge. So I give it about a 20 minute run time best guess, on high.


But an AW 2600 should have no problem feeding it 2.86 amps, and would last close to an hour...  using IMRs in P60 hosts seems rather outdated, as the heat build up above 3 amps drops output anyway. That being said, I'd like to see results for 3a, 3.25a, 3.5a etc.


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## bigchelis (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> But an AW 2600 should have no problem feeding it 2.86 amps, and would last close to an hour...  using IMRs in P60 hosts seems rather outdated, as the heat build up above 3 amps drops output anyway. That being said, I'd like to see results for 3a, 3.25a, 3.5a etc.


 

That is now impossible with my SST-50 P60 drop-in because it now has a regulated driver and it will not go higher than what it already does. Perhaps when it was direct drive it could have been possible, but you saw what happened with all that extra power:thumbsdow

The AW black 2600mAh 18650 cells can handle up to 5A of current. If this was DD again, the current would be up and over 5A at the tail.


MrGman,
Let me know and I can go over tommorrow anytime, hell even drop them off at your lab/office or just wait till you get home from work.:thumbsup:
Let me know,
bigC


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## joshconsulting (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> That is now impossible with my SST-50 P60 drop-in because it now has a regulated driver and it will not go higher than what it already does. Perhaps when it was direct drive it could have been possible, but you saw what happened with all that extra power:thumbsdow
> 
> The AW black 2600mAh 18650 cells can handle up to 5A of current. If this was DD again, the current would be up and over 5A at the tail.
> 
> ...


I agree. In fact, that's my point. Quoting runtime for IMRs is kind of a waste - why go with 1/3rd the capacity when you don't need the massive discharge? The AWs can handle the current just fine, and should give you much longer runtimes.


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## bigchelis (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> I agree. In fact, that's my point. Quoting runtime for IMRs is kind of a waste - why go with 1/3rd the capacity when you don't need the massive discharge? The AWs can handle the current just fine, and should give you much longer runtimes.


 
In that case with the black AW 2600 cell it should run for about 40~45 minutes on high mode. I can test it when I get the drop-in back and I can guarantee the current will be almost identical as it was with the IMR..


bigC


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## joshconsulting (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> In that case with the black AW 2600 cell it should run for about 40~45 minutes on high mode. I can test it when I get the drop-in back and I can guarantee the current will be almost identical as it was with the IMR..
> 
> 
> bigC


If the AWs lived up to their rating (which thusfar they seem to have tested that way), by my calculations, you'll see 40 minutes of regulation before a fairly quick drop into dimmer and dimmer light that lasts a few hours. I'm not positive that's how the driver on Nailbender's lights work, but I think it's a fairly safe assumption that there's no voltage cutoff in the driver itself.


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## bigchelis (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> @ mrgman: Was that with heatsinking (fan/hand), or was it simply sitting there? That's impressively little drop, more so if it wasn't heatsinked. Do you have any readings without a lens? If the l2 really is blocking 8-9%, we could be seeing 500+ lummens OTF with a UCL.
> 
> @milky: I'll respond when I'm at a computer instead of my iPhone so I can type faster then 30 WPM


 

I forgot to mention that in the past my Mag P7 DD builds powered with IMR 18650 vs. Tenergy C cells = nearly 200 more OTF lumens with Tenergy NiMH 5000mah cells.

I was thinking the Javelin powered by 3 Tenergy AA 2600mAh cells could possibly sag less and just might make this SST-50 hit 500 OTF lumens. It could happen....Ideally; I would have a Fivemega 26650 hosts powered by a IMR 26650 4000mAh cells, but those Fivemega hosts are HUGE..

bigC


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## joshconsulting (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

An even easier way: Ask nailbender to build you a single-mode sandwich driver at 2.8A instead of 2.5. I'm guessing that little boost would hit 400 OTF nicely. I had a tough time deciding, but I just didn't want to give up the medium and low for a little extra brightness :ironic:


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## MrGman (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Attention, Attention, Drum roll please and French Horns send out the siren call.

300 lumen Alert. We finally have a 300 lumen out the front output LED module in hand. Bigchelis is the proud owner of an "Anto" custom built module available. this thread below talks about the build design. 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/255569

We tested the new XP-G R4 potted P60 module using one 18650 IMR battery (doesn't have to be an IMR). Driven at 1.4A. I am told the production runs will be with the R5. This unit put out 306 lumens out the front in a Solarforce L2 host with AR coated glass at turn on.

It was down to 297 at 30 seconds, 293 at 60 seconds, 290 at 2 minutes and 287 at 3 minutes. 

So we have a real 300 lumen output light in a P60 type module that will fit into a 6P size flashlight that is not a quad multidie unit or a large SST type mega die that is the equivalent of a quad die. 

Congrats to big C for making a wise purchase selection. I am sure there will be many to follow driven at this current with a good heat sink making a lot of people happy. :twothumbs


I will post the results on page #1 later.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Impressive for the R4, but the new ones coming at the end of the month should be R5, with a 35-40 lummen boost. You could see higher yet :twothumbs


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## sfca (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> An even easier way: Ask nailbender to build you a single-mode sandwich driver at 2.8A instead of 2.5. I'm guessing that little boost would hit 400 OTF nicely.



You mean _500_ Otf.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sfca said:


> You mean _500_ Otf.


Yup


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## MrGman (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

All my newest readings of various lights taken this week of January 4 - 8 2010 are posted in blue color on page one in the first post using the real Lab Sphere IS system. There are nailbenders, one in both a solarforce host and the new Dereelight running off of 3 AA batteries and others, including the new 300 lumen Anto custom XP-G 1.4A driven unit. So take a glance back at page one for all the readings, they are spread out thru the list by name, not all at the top of the page. Some recent readings are in green, and the incandescents, none of which are new readings are still in orange. 

Enjoy, G.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



> Nailbender P7 Drop in,________427__turn-on,___________1_18650 LI unprotected__Solarforce L2 Host, AR coated glass,






> Nailbender SST50_P60_H_____470__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650__________Solarforce L2 with AR coated glass.



We have a new champ for P60 dropins, unless you count the Triple XP-E turn-on oo:


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## MrGman (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

As much as I would like to say your right. The production Malkoff MC-E is a P60 size drop in and its brighter and holds it higher. So even though its a flood, lumens is lumens. Now if we go with single and centered die only in a P60 type module, (which is what everybody really wants at least one of), then this is the new winner. The NB SST50 is also relatively easily produced. So its not going to be just a one or two knock off (like the moddoo triple). I am guessing the race will be on to see who can squeeze the most steady state lumens out of one without too much drop off from heat or battery consumption with a regulated driver running off of 2X18650's. 

Malkoff MC-E_reg,___________542__turn-on____________2X18650LI_____________Solarforce Host +1 ext. no Bezel


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## joshconsulting (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I don't see the appeal of 2x 18650 lights. Why not just carry a spare battery for the times you need longer runtime?

For the 1x18650, the MC-E is reading 480 turn on, 406 warm DDed off an IMR - drastically shorter runtime compared to a 2.5A AW. And as you mentioned, it's much floodier with a dirty beam compared to the SST-50.


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## bigchelis (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> I don't see the appeal of 2x 18650 lights. Why not just carry a spare battery for the times you need longer runtime?
> 
> For the 1x18650, the MC-E is reading 480 turn on, 406 warm DDed off an IMR - drastically shorter runtime compared to a 2.5A AW. And as you mentioned, it's much floodier with a dirty beam compared to the SST-50.


 
The Malkoff MC-E DD was mine too
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________480__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_No Bezel__(DD=direct drive)
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________457__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_ Bezel AR coated Glass,
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________406__warm,_____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_ Bezel AR coated glass,

It had 4A at the tail with the IMR 18650 cell and while 457 is the turn-on lumens with a bezel on. The warm is 406 and still dropping. Mrgman didn't do 1 or 2 minute readings on these as it was early on and we didn't know they would suffer badly in the OTF department. I bet it would have been 300 or less lumens at 3 minutes.

MrGman,
The warm reading in the begining was 3sec or 30 seconds? I cant remember.


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## MrGman (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> The Malkoff MC-E DD was mine too
> Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________480__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_No Bezel__(DD=direct drive)
> Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________457__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_ Bezel AR coated Glass,
> Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________406__warm,_____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_ Bezel AR coated glass,
> ...


 
It was 30 seconds. It was still dropping fast so I simply shut her down. 

Some of us like good stable lights on 2X18650 batteries. If that's too big than 2X18500's 2X17500's or 3XCR123 is still a great sized option. Not everything has to be 1X18650. 

However a regulated SST50 at 2.5 amps drive that will run off 1X18650 and put out up to 470 real lumens with a good centalized beam with no donut hole will be a very popular light indeed. 

But on the other hand having something that will put out 300 lumens and hold most of that for 3 minute runs at only 1.4 amps (at the LED) which means substantially more run time and wider battery options is going to be very popular as well. If the XP-G R5's start putting out 350 lumens at turn on and hold 300 or so at the 3 minute mark, it would be hard to justify a 10 watt battery burner to get another 120 lumens. 

Picking between those two, now that's a dilemma.  :devil:


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## joshconsulting (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Hard for you to justify, perhaps  :devil:
Then again, I tend to use my lights around the house or car where I'll be more likely to have a spare set of batts. If I need a longer runtime, just drop down into 15% low and enjoy the 13h runtime :thumbsup:


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## joshconsulting (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



> M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1714.5______instant peak_:bow:






> M6/Triple P7____LED Zeppelin___3XAW17670_____3x_P7______1498.5____240 sec_




I *want* to see a SST-50 used for this instead of P7. If Nailbender's SST-50 @ 2.5A can nearly beat his P7 in direct drive, a regulated triple should put out some serious damage. And the beam would be a lot less floody and ugly. You'd have an insane flooder with good throw in a handheld light. If I wasn't looking at $200+ for a body and $250-300+ for a modder, I would be hiring LED Zeppelin to build me one as we speak


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## MrGman (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

there would be no need to have to make a "triple" SST50 system. One SST90 with proper drive circuit/heatsink, and a good deep reflector would replace the 3 P7's quite nicely. Instead of looking for prebuilt drivers that they can just solder in, some one should just design a 1 to 9 amp driver to run the SST90. Mount that unit in the same size head that the triple would go into but with one deep parabolic reflector, make it all into one massive heatsink and be done with it.

I think the same type of custom design that was created for the soft start of those high wattage incandescent mag mod custom lights could be used for a driver, or the same type of creative thinking that came up with those soft starts for those high current incan lamps could come up with something to drive up to 9A for the SST90 from either 3 or 4 of the new high current capacity C or D cell Lithium Ion batteries, or a stack of 4 to 6 18650's.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

A single would be slightly less efficient (hotter and dimmer), but would be way cheaper.


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## MrGman (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I am really shocked and amazed that no one is getting excited about the fact we finally have a single LED type P60 module that is putting out 300 plus lumens. :huh:

I know that there are multi die and mega dice that will do that now but everyones been wanting a 6P type light that doesn't draw 2.5A or better to put out 300 real out the front lumens, and now that there is one its just a yawn?

How jaded and spoiled have all you flashohooligans become? 

Just 2 years ago if I published this info you guys would be burning holes in your pants pockets pulling your wallets out too fast trying to buy these, not to mention drooling all over your computer keyboards. 

Now its like anhhh, that's nice, so what else is happening in the world today. 

So this is just in case you all missed it with discussions of heatsinks and clockcycles and SST 9 million series mega chips. We have an XP-G R4 that is putting 306 out the front lumens in 6P size host with one 18650 battery drawing only 1.4 amps to the LED to do it. And the R5 is soon to be tested and on its way.


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I am really shocked and amazed that no one is getting excited about the fact we finally have a single LED type P60 module that is putting out 300 plus lumens. :huh:
> 
> I know that there are multi die and mega dice that will do that now but everyones been wanting a 6P type light that doesn't draw 2.5A or better to put out 300 real out the front lumens, and now that there is one its just a yawn?
> 
> ...


 
This is totally only my opinion and I know I'm in the minority, but I don't care if it's putting out 10,000 lumens if it's only for less than 30 seconds.


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## sfca (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Waiting for that S2. Don't know too much about the tech but if there's an S5..?

What's the calculation (if it's simple enough) to net the runtime on high for the SST-50 and this R5 P60 drop-in - on 2 CR123?

Thanks!



MrGman said:


> I am really shocked and amazed that no one is getting excited about the fact we finally have a single LED type P60 module that is putting out 300 plus lumens. :huh:
> 
> I know that there are multi die and mega dice that will do that now but everyones been wanting a 6P type light that doesn't draw 2.5A or better to put out 300 real out the front lumens, and now that there is one its just a yawn?
> 
> ...


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## MrGman (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



was.lost.but.now.found said:


> This is totally only my opinion and I know I'm in the minority, but I don't care if it's putting out 10,000 lumens if it's only for less than 30 seconds.


 

Well this isn't a 30 second run time type of light. The run time would be over an hour and a half. the output sags a little as it warms up but it levels off. 1.4 amps off of a 2.6 Ampere hour battery is more than an hour. Yeah the light may drop 30 lumens or so with warm up but then it stabilizes and your good to go. Most of the LEDs in the 200 to 250 lumen class still do the same thing. Better to start at 306 and drop to 280 then to start at 225 and drop to 195 don't you think.

This isn't one of those it starts at 470 but within one minute its down to 300 lumens type of lights.


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Well this isn't a 30 second run time type of light. The run time would be over an hour and a half. the output sags a little as it warms up but it levels off. 1.4 amps off of a 2.6 Ampere hour battery is more than an hour. Yeah the light may drop 30 lumens or so with warm up but then it stabilizes and your good to go. Most of the LEDs in the 200 to 250 lumen class still do the same thing. Better to start at 306 and drop to 280 then to start at 225 and drop to 195 don't you think.
> 
> This isn't one of those it starts at 470 but within one minute its down to 300 lumens type of lights.


 
Fair enough but you only gave the results for the first 3 minutes. What did it finally level off at, or did it?


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## MrGman (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

It only dropped 6 lumens in the last 2 minutes of the testing I did. It was slowing down just before 3 minutes so I didn't run it past 3 and a half.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Got my L2p body today [finally!], put the drop-in in with a layer of aluminum foil and two layers of aluminum from a pepsi can. I was out of aluminum foil so I had to make do with 150 grit paper, so it wasn't sanded to bare aluminum. Still, I had to jam the reflector in quite hard (I was only touching the solid reflector, so I wasn't worried about damaging the LED or board), so hopefully it made good thermal contact.

On startup, while holding it, it got noticeably warm in 8 seconds, and quite warm in 60. In under 2 minutes it was hot, and didn't really increase in temperature after that. Big C, how fast does your copper-wrapped one warm up?

I'll post a full review\pictures later once I get my camera back, left it at a relatives house during Christmas :thumbsdow

The UCL lens is quite impressive. Here's a picture of it compared to the stock lens (excuse the iphone camera quality, click for full size ):




It's definitely clearer then the stock lens; the stock lens has a slight 'hazing' effect as well. When I accidently dropped the UCL lens on the carpet, I had to feel around for it - I couldn't see it when I was staring right at it. I forgot it in the bezel and tried to poke through it with a cleaning cloth when I was installing the LED module


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## bigchelis (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I got my Nailbender SST-50 with 2.5A driver and it takes 5 minutes before it warms up on high mode and 2.78A at the tail.


I used the 3M Cooper tape and just now I used real cooper sheets (no adhesive) and in both cases it gets equally as warm at 5 minutes. I expected the heat to be transfered more effectively with the cooper sheets, but it made no difference that I noticed.



bigC


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## joshconsulting (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Checked mine again. At around 2:30, the front part stops getting warmer; the back of the bezel and front of the body continue to warm, gradually taping off and holding steady a little before the 5 minute mark. I guess as long as it's fitted in tightly, the separate aluminum strips to a fine job conducting heat


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## MrGman (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> I got my Nailbender SST-50 with 2.5A driver and it takes 5 minutes before it warms up on high mode and 2.78A at the tail.
> 
> 
> I used the 3M Cooper tape and just now I used real cooper sheets (no adhesive) and in both cases it gets equally as warm at 5 minutes. I expected the heat to be transfered more effectively with the cooper sheets, but it made no difference that I noticed.
> ...


 

The thermal transfer rate of "cooper" tape is only 0.234598745 and a third watts per meter X degree C. The thermal transer rate of real Copper tape, is much much better. about 400 watts per meter X degree C. Use Real Copper tape, but don't cut your fingers.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> The thermal transfer rate of "cooper" tape is only 0.234598745 and a third watts per meter X degree C. The thermal transer rate of real Copper tape, is much much better. about 400 watts per meter X degree C. Use Real Copper tape, but don't cut your fingers.


Ehh? I'm confused. Are you talking about the DX 'imitation' tape, which is designed for electrical rather then thermal transfer? The 3m tape is pure copper, to the best of my knowledge the thermal adhesive is the only barrier to thermal transfer (and fairly low at that).


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## bigchelis (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> The thermal transfer rate of "cooper" tape is only 0.234598745 and a third watts per meter X degree C. The thermal transer rate of real Copper tape, is much much better. about 400 watts per meter X degree C. Use Real Copper tape, but don't cut your fingers.


 


Yeah, these non-adhesive cooper strips are sharp. I got them from Anto and they fit the P60 drop-ins super tight. Here they are next to the Anto drop-in fitted with 3M cooper tape.







Anto,

Where did you get these thin cooper sheets from?


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## MrGman (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Ehh? I'm confused. Are you talking about the DX 'imitation' tape, which is designed for electrical rather then thermal transfer? The 3m tape is pure copper, to the best of my knowledge the thermal adhesive is the only barrier to thermal transfer (and fairly low at that).


 

Yes you are confused. What element is "cooper"? 




hint: 



I am trying to get big C to fix his spelling


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## joshconsulting (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Big c, where did you get those co*p*per strips? I'm afraid I don't know 'Anto'. I'd like a few myself


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## Winx (Jan 7, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

What's the thickness of the copper sheet?


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## bigchelis (Jan 7, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Winx said:


> What's the thickness of the copper sheet?


 


It is 1mm or so. Anto is including more than enough to all those who purchase his XP-G R5 potted and cooper slug drop-ins. Here is his thread:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/255569


bigC


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## MrGman (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I have posted some new readings of Quark Preon 1AAA, 2AAA, 123 Mini, AA mini and the RGB units along with the newest Dereelight XP-G 1.2 amp driven 3 mode module in the CL1HV4 using the regular size head and one reading with the Turbo or 36mm head. They are on page one in blue

the RGB does not put out the same amount of lumens for red green and blue as it does for white at full power, as I expected. The sphere is calibrated for the "daylight" spectrum using an incandescent lamp standard and the photopic curve such as it is cuts off some blue and red. So even at the same electrical power input they would never read the same output in lumens as the full white spectrum LED driven at the same power level.

Interesting readings. I like the quark mini 123 and 1AA units for pocket carry EDC lights. 

The Dereelight with the 36mm head didn't quite fit into the sphere opening, just on the edge but the real difference in the readings is the fact with the deeper reflector the LED is just that much further away from the opening. It has a really nice useable tight beam. I wish I still had my Tiablo A10 to compare it to. 

Enjoy. I have one more item to test and that is it for this chapter in Lumens history.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

OK, that's just weird. I was literally MINUTES away from posting to ask if you had any idea what the Deerlight XP-G does.

Now the only thing I need is numbers on the Thrunite Catapult. Too bad the most active person with a IS is losing it :sigh:


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## MrGman (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> OK, that's just weird. I was literally MINUTES away from posting to ask if you had any idea what the Deerlight XP-G does.
> 
> Now the only thing I need is numbers on the Thrunite Catapult. Too bad the most active person with a IS is losing it :sigh:


 

I have not tested any Deer lights. Nor wild boar lights neither. But you are making me hungry.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

That would explain why Google failed to find anything, and deerlight.com didn't work...


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## bigchelis (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

That Dereelight with the Turbo head 36mm is really something. Without that bezel it is like a floody type of beam that most XP-G R4/R5 seem to have in a P60 design. 

Good to know we have another 300 OTF lumen XP-G out there. 


The Preon 2 AAA flashlight is awesome. It is 100% flood light and creates a pure white wall of light and was my absolute favorate. The mini cr123 is equally impressive and 200 OTF is not bad at all.

BigC


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## joshconsulting (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I wish there was a head that I could drop on my L2p for some serious throw when I need it as opposed to the SST-50's flood. Thought about the Solarforce Masterpiece Pro 1, but I'm not a big MC-E fan. The Dereelight looks very good with 20k+ lux, but the Thrunite's 35k lux and 500+ lummens make it a really tough call. But I'd rather not spend another $100+ on a thrower light for now, so I'll wait and see what comes down the pipe in high lummen\big throw lights using the SST-50


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## bigchelis (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> I wish there was a head that I could drop on my L2p for some serious throw when I need it as opposed to the SST-50's flood. Thought about the Solarforce Masterpiece Pro 1, but I'm not a big MC-E fan. The Dereelight looks very good with 20k+ lux, but the Thrunite's 35k lux and 500+ lummens make it a really tough call. But I'd rather not spend another $100+ on a thrower light for now, so I'll wait and see what comes down the pipe in high lummen\big throw lights using the SST-50


 

There is a 2.5in Surefire M6 looking bezel that accepts P60 drop-ins (pill part only). I get a super throw SST-50 with it, but currently have a P60 drop-in XP-G R4 in it. It is called the TLS Q5 (mine uses a XP-G thanks to Kramer5150) it focuses a tiny hot hot spot and throws really really far. I will PM you some pics.

bigC


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## joshconsulting (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

The problem is that I'm looking for a reasonably high output in the light as well, with a super-tiny hotspot not as much of a priority - something in the 20k+ lux would be ideal, but I would like to get 350-400 lummens OTF for some sidespill and a decently sized hotspot. Like I said, the thrunite fits the bill - but the 2x18650 is close to a dealbreaker for me.

Out of curiosity, are there any lux readings out there for the Dereelight XP-G? Where can I purchase the larger head? 300 inital OTF looks promising, if the regular CL1H V4 gave good throw as well it would be an option.


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## SCEMan (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> That Dereelight with the Turbo head 36mm is really something. Without that bezel it is like a floody type of beam that most XP-G R4/R5 seem to have in a P60 design.BigC


 
I haven't heard of a 36mm Turbo head. You don't mean the 48mm DBS bezel/head do you?


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## bigchelis (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



SCEMan said:


> I haven't heard of a 36mm Turbo head. You don't mean the 48mm DBS bezel/head do you?


 

I thought it was a 36mm, but it is the one sold here:
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=210675

It is P60 compatible only with other P60 XP-G's and XP-E's.

It does make the XP-G throw and floody no more.

bigC


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## joshconsulting (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Yea, I'm trying to decide between the DBS and the Thrunite Capult. Stats, as far as I can tell:

DBS Lux: (Unkonwn, around 22-24k I believe)
Thrunite Lux: 34k
DBS Lummens: 280
Thrunite Lummens: 500+ (649 on the 2 mode, according to light-reviews.com. Seems overstated for 2.8A to a SST-50, ~550 more likely).

Sadly, the ThruNite is 2x the size for 2x the light. Also, it's $150. But it has quite possibly the best regulation curve I've ever seen, a big plus for me. But it does have the option of using it as a 1x18650 light. With that, the output would be roughly halved - but the regulation is lost, and output drops quickly after 15 minutes. And it's still bigger then the DBS in 1x18650 size.

I'm torn, to say the least :mecry:

EDIT: The single mode 18650 XPG would be my choice for a DBS. Exactly $100 shipped. (DBS V3 1S Cree XP-G R5 Flashlight)


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## MrGman (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I think the DBS with the so called turbo head focusing that XPG-R5 output down to a tighter beam is higher than 24K lux at 1 meter. That's my guestimate. I think its due to be measured. Makes me wish I had my Lux meter again just to take a reading on this unit.

Csshih has had both in hand, he should be able to say which one appeared brighter. to me the Catapult (does it launch cats?) is only a better light with the extension tube and 2X18650 batteries in it, not as a single cell unit.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Well, the older R2 version was 24k @ 1m (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/selfbuilt/18650-Summary1.gif), with a small hotspot and 200 lummens. The new XP-G version is supposed to be almost exactly the same lux, with a larger hotspot, more spill, and 300 lummens. (https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/255670) Unfortunately, no one has yet taken a light meter to it.


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Interesting readings. I like the quark mini 123 and 1AA units for pocket carry EDC lights.


 
Can you expand on that? Do you think your IS is wrong? I'm disappointed in the mini AA as they were advertised as 90 OTF with a Duracell.


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## SCEMan (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I think the DBS with the so called turbo head focusing that XPG-R5 output down to a tighter beam is higher than 24K lux at 1 meter. That's my guestimate. I think its due to be measured. Makes me wish I had my Lux meter again just to take a reading on this unit. Csshih has had both in hand, he should be able to say which one appeared brighter. to me the Catapult (does it launch cats?) is only a better light with the extension tube and 2X18650 batteries in it, not as a single cell unit.



That's simply a stock DBS head with an XPG-optimized reflector. It should be a killer setup. I'm using the same light but with the DBS XR-E SMO reflector and Nailbender's SST-50. Big hotspot that throws far and super bright spill with a perfect beam. Small enough to easily fit in the front pocket of my BDUs.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Does the XR-E SMO really improve the throw over the stock P60 SMO SST-50 nailbender puts in?


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## SCEMan (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Does the XR-E SMO really improve the throw over the stock P60 SMO SST-50 nailbender puts in?



It's not the SMO reflector "style", it's going from a P60-size reflector to the very deep, throw optimized 48mm DBS SMO reflector. 






Nailbender's SMOs are as good anyone's for a P60, but a small reflector cannot focus the SST-50 like the DBS can.

In the P60-size CL1Hv4 (SMO), the SST-50 didn't throw as well as my M60. Now in the DBS, there's no comparison...


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## joshconsulting (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Is there any way to get the reflector by itself? I could pay Nailbender to mod my SST-50 into one for something with more throw overall. Any readings on lux at the hotspot or even beamshots? Only problem is that you have to pay $100 for the light then another $50 to have the SST-50 modded into it, but if it was anywhere even close to the Thrunite in terms of overall output while retaining 15k-20k lux, it might be worth it.


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## SCEMan (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Is there any way to get the reflector by itself? I could pay Nailbender to mod my SST-50 into one for something with more throw overall. Any readings on lux at the hotspot or even beamshots? Only problem is that you have to pay $100 for the light then another $50 to have the SST-50 modded into it, but if it was anywhere even close to the Thrunite in terms of overall output while retaining 15k-20k lux, it might be worth it.



You might check with Flashlight connection and see if they have a DBS head with SMO; then pickup a CL1Hv4 body & tailcap. Next screw in your SST-50 pill. This is basically what I have. Once you try it I'll bet you'll leave the SST-50 there. 

Then all you have to do is buy a XPG R5 for your L2!


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## joshconsulting (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Any guesses at what the DBS head + SMO would cost? I'd rather not inqure until I have at least a chance of buying. Could I just screw the head onto my L2p, or do they not fit? Do I simply unscrew the Nailbender SST-50 module and drop it into the head?

Thanks for the help


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## bigchelis (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

MrGman,

The Dereelight XP-G R5 that you got 300 OTF with is actually a:

*3SD XP-G R5* which is intended for a single cell.

You have it listed as a 3SM, which it is not. The 3SM is for 2 li-on usage.

bigC


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## joshconsulting (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Well, I PMed flashlightconnection about buying the Dereelight without the pill, but I'm still wondering if I can put the Dereelight head on my L2p body, or does it not lego?

If I end up doing this, the temptation to get another SST-50 for a flooder in my L2p is going to be strong


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## MrGman (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> MrGman,
> 
> The Dereelight XP-G R5 that you got 300 OTF with is actually a:
> 
> ...


 

All those Dereelight pills look alike to me. Its fixed. G.


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## SCEMan (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Well, I PMed flashlightconnection about buying the Dereelight without the pill, but I'm still wondering if I can put the Dereelight head on my L2p body, or does it not lego?



Dereelight DBS V2/V3 heads in my experience only fit a DBS or CL1Hv4 body. Yes, any P60 compatible pill will screw directly into a DBS reflector. That's the beauty of the design - I bought a DBS over a year ago and have upgraded to the latest LEDs several times simply by buying P60 compatible pills.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Well, I sent a pm to Nailbender about the pill. Still haven't heard back from Flashlightconnection about the body. Could you take some beamshots, please. I might end up selling my SST-50 L2p to get this if it's a decent all arounder with a narrower hotspot (and possibly greater output if I get a 2.8A sandwich board single mode).


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## bigchelis (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Well, I sent a pm to Nailbender about the pill. Still haven't heard back from Flashlightconnection about the body. Could you take some beamshots, please. I might end up selling my SST-50 L2p to get this if it's a decent all arounder with a narrower hotspot (and possibly greater output if I get a 2.8A sandwich board single mode).


 

The DBS and other Dereelight Flashlight bezels only fit Dereelight. The DBS has a bigger reflector and if you get the DBS XP-G R5 you can only lego a P60 pill XP-E and thats it.

If you get the DBS MC-E, then you can use any P60 drop-in pill because the oppening is big enough for both the SST-50 and R2's.

bigC


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## MrGman (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I just posted more readings of the Quark Preon I and II using NiMH rechargeables. Only the peak readings on high were higher with these batteries that can obviously deliver more current and not sag the voltage as much as Alkalines.


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## SCEMan (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> The DBS and other Dereelight Flashlight bezels only fit Dereelight. The DBS has a bigger reflector and if you get the DBS XP-G R5 you can only lego a P60 pill XP-E and thats it.
> 
> If you get the DBS MC-E, then you can use any P60 drop-in pill because the oppening is big enough for both the SST-50 and R2's.bigC


 
Good point. I didn't consider that the reflector opening is smaller for the XP-G pill. The XR-E reflector opening accomodates the MC-E & SST-50 LEDs perfectly (but you wouldn't want to use the SMO with an MC-E; OP only).


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## joshconsulting (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



SCEMan said:


> Good point. I didn't consider that the reflector opening is smaller for the XP-G pill. The XR-E reflector opening accomodates the MC-E & SST-50 LEDs perfectly (but you wouldn't want to use the SMO with an MC-E; OP only).


So I want the OP MC-E, not the SMO? I'd really rather have SMO based on how badly the throw falls with OP in the XP-E, but if it makes a *really* ugly beam it's worth it. I was aware of the XP-G issue, but thanks for bringing it up


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## joshconsulting (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Update: The body assembly can be purchesed at http://flashlightconnection.com/DBS-V3-Host-No-Reflector-or-Pill-p183.html for $49. The reflector sells for $20 at http://flashlightconnection.com/Orange-Peel-OP-Reflector-DBS-p48.html. I still don't know if I should get the SMO or OP; did the SMO produce artifacts for you, or do you simply prefer the more diffused light? I tend to prefer the increased brightness from a SMO even at the expense of beam quality, as long as it's not too bad.


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## SCEMan (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Update: The body assembly can be purchesed at http://flashlightconnection.com/DBS-V3-Host-No-Reflector-or-Pill-p183.html for $49. The reflector sells for $20 at http://flashlightconnection.com/Orange-Peel-OP-Reflector-DBS-p48.html. I still don't know if I should get the SMO or OP; did the SMO produce artifacts for you, or do you simply prefer the more diffused light? I tend to prefer the increased brightness from a SMO even at the expense of beam quality, as long as it's not too bad.


 
Get the SMO. In my DBS SMO setup the SST-50 produces a completely ring free beautifully focused beam - there's no reason to use an OP reflector. I also added a UCL lens...


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## joshconsulting (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Ignore previous PM. For some reason, I thought the CL1H was the next iteration (V4) of the DBS.

That being said, wouldn't it be better to go with the DBS body + head? Flashlightconnection sells both as a package for $50, and it seems like they would match better. Is there a reason to go for the CL1H body and the DBS head\reflector?

Oh, and I would still like beamshots, if it's possible and convenient for you 

Here's a link for the SMO (it's $25): http://flashlightconnection.com/Smooth-SMO-Reflector-DBS--p47.html

What size lens is required for the DBS? I think I'll order 2 UCLs and have them include diffusion tape on one of them so I can switch between thrower and flooder easily.


EDIT: Found them, 43.41x2.89 @ http://www.flashlightlens.com/str/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=prodshow&ref=ucl_lens. $6.25 for a regular lens, $9.25 for one with difussion tape. Supposedly it reduces overall output very little, but smooths the beam and turns it into a floody light. Sounds like I can have my thrower and flooder for $9.25 extra 

Also of note from https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/219004:


> I just tested my DBS v2 3SD Q5
> With the lens in place, I got a representative illuminance at 1 m of 30700 lux.
> Without the lens the corresponding number was 35600 lux.:huh:



Apparently some DBS lenses are better, some worse, but either way a UCL should improve throw measurably


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## MrGman (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Guys, I would like to bring this thread back on track about lumens output and not about which hosts are compatible with what SST or XP-G specific LED modules. I appreciate all the interest that it has generated but I think that we are going too far off track for the thread about what new LEDs are putting out lumenwise and going into specific models of host housings and reflector sizes and prices. 

There are a few current Dereelight DBS threads and of course you can always start another one that discusses all of the options of such hosts versus the new SST 50 and XP-G modules in them. 

I certainly like the Dereelight modules and you should buy every option they make for these new lights because they are going to work well and be a step up from any P60 type host but this again is a sidetrack from the gloriousnous of total luminosity and what hot new sources we can get it from.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Sorry about hijacking your thread there, I tend to do that without noticing 

Anyway, back on the 'actual lumen readings' topic, could you possibly get a reading on Big C's SST-50 in a DBS head, or is the IS already gone? I'd really like to see what changing the reflector but keeping everything else the same does to overall output. It would be interesting to see the difference in lux as well.


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## MrGman (Jan 13, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Sorry about hijacking your thread there, I tend to do that without noticing
> 
> Anyway, back on the 'actual lumen readings' topic, could you possibly get a reading on Big C's SST-50 in a DBS head, or is the IS already gone? I'd really like to see what changing the reflector but keeping everything else the same does to overall output. It would be interesting to see the difference in lux as well.


 
The change should be the same as running the XP-G from the smaller P60 size reflector/head to that of the "turbo"head. That went from 300 to 240 lumens, mostly because the LED source was much further away from the sphere. so final over initial is a 20% drop of actual measured lumens, I would expect the SST-50 that otherwise turns on at 470 to drop 25% (initial over final) and give you 376 lumens at turn on. 

If you mean from the typical P60 type reflector to the smaller P60 size Dereelight head, I really wouldn't expect that to change much at all very small %. I can ask big C but don't know if I will have any more time.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 13, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Yea, I meant the larger head. I guess the drop is to be expected while changing it into a thrower. It does have the advantage of better heatsinking with the much larger reflector, though, so the drop will hopefully be considerably less. And if I can persuade Nailbender to send me a 2.8A instead of a 2.5A, the extra 12% output should at least close the gap between the two for overall light output.

Edit: You can PM me the response if you don't want to clutter up the thread, but do you know how accurate the DX $28 lightmeter is? I heard it undercuts lux by around 30% compared to a calibrated meter, but is fairly accurate when comparing relative values. I'd like to construct a makeshift lightbox to get some numbers on various flashlights I have laying around (Apparently, I have over 15, mostly el cheapos I collected as Christmas presents or impulse buys in the checkout line). At least I could get a comparison of my 2d mag incan, 3d mag LED, L2p, AKORay K-106, X5, Minimag LED, and minimag incan to get ideas of overall output and throw.


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## MrGman (Jan 13, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Shame on you for even suggesting to buy a cheap piece o shpleep $28 uncalibrated meter let alone something from DX. I am shocked and amazed that you with the super duper mega computer that won't tolerate a dropped clock cycle would even consider such a thing. You should be banished to consulting and reading forums only in Elbonia. :shakehead

What were you thinking. A real light meter has to have a photopic curve filter so you don't measure UV and deep blue LEDs brighter than whites and incandescents. YOu can't use a "box" to get accurate readings when you go from flood to deep throwers either.

A 16 inch styro sphere is only $40.00. A good meter of course is at least $170.00. If you can't afford that, sell the computer and/or give up this quest for better flashlights. Are you a seeker of knowledge and the truth or just a pretender? 

The truth is not found down $28 cheapo avenue and Box street. 

As your make up homework assignment you will do your research as to why you need the right equipment to take any type of half way decent readings at home before you ask any more silly questions. :tinfoil:

If you buy a $28.00 meter and come back and ask questions about it I will be forced to use my top secret Jedi software skills and have you banished from these threads without even asking permission. :tinfoil:

I wouldn't even give some one I don't like and can't put up with a $28 uncalibrated who knows what light meter.

That's just cruel. :shakehead :devil:

Now go do some homework.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 13, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



If I had another $200 to spend on flashlights, it wouldn't be spent on a light meter with a collection my size. And hey, I heard good things about it from relative reviews..

That being said, this is coming from the guy who just dropped $240 on a new waterblock for my GTX 295 that let me squeze another 30 Mhz out of the clock speed. How does that possibly benefit me? Well...

At least I can justify it as a buisness expense. Which is good, because I'm considering replacing my cheapo router with a $300 dedicated switching server. Why? Well, in the off chance that FIOS comes in my area in the next few years, I wouldn't want to be stuck waiting a few weeks to setup the server to get the full 100 MB\s speeds.

My priorities are weird. Don't question them, you make me look at them more in depth then I want to 

That being said, could I at least rely on it for a relative light output comparison for lux, and a very rough guess at overall relative output with a ceiling bounce or *ahem* large milk carton? (bite your tongue, fool-who-used-to-have-a-calibrated-integrated-sphere)

Oh, and I would give up a Hellfighter and Maxabeam before selling my computer. It is my heart and soul. Note the nice picture of the motherboard, though the 80x80 pixel limit forces me to show one grainy shot of a tiny section of the rig. And last time I put my config in my sig, a mod stripped it out. Apparently 11 kB images present difficulties for those with subpar internet connections. Oh well, I can sympathize, I used to run dialup before Comcastic 50 MB\s goodness came to my area


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## Bullzeyebill (Jan 13, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

joshconsulting, you are hijacking this thread, as you admitted earlier, then you continued to hijack it. It would be good if you would start your own thread, or find one that is appropriate for your needs, as MrGman suggested.

Bill


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## MrGman (Jan 13, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM2hM5sJEIU

Okay XP-G fans. Here we have a video from left to right of the Dereelight Turbohead with the XP-G R5 in a smooth reflector showing the hotspot of the beam next to the Dereelight Aspheric with a Cree R2 focused directly on the wall, then the TLS Turbohead with a Nailbender XP-G R4 module and then the "Anto" XP-G R4 in a regular OP P60 type head. These show the difference in beam patterns possible and the Aspheric is just a reference of how tight the hot spot could be. The Turbohead actual hot spot size was about the same as the LED projected on the wall but the corona of the hot spots of the turbo heads makes it a little harder to see in the video with limited contrast than what the human eye can see. 

Enjoy. If its not in HQ mode yet please wait. I just loaded it moments before creating this post.

Special credit to big Chelis for helping to make it and getting the flashlights and to csshih for providing some of the lights that he has been doing reviews on.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 13, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*








I really need to disable instant email notifications, with 24\7 access to the forums my instant responses have to get annoying 

Anyway, as for the video - It would appear that the TLS has a tighter hotspot then the Dereelight with the XPG; can you confirm it's not just a camera thing?

Is this video roughly the same distance from the shed (40-45') as the previous one in which you tested the Nailbender SST-50? If so, it could use it for direct comparison of hotspot size to show throw.

How does the XPG compare to an XP-E for throw? I've heard both good and bad (mostly that the XP-E works better with the aspheric), but the XPG would have a significant lummen advantage. Sadly, I couldn't find any XP-E readings on the front page - have you tested any?

Sorry for all the questions, I *will* stop posting on this thread if you want, although I've tried to make these on topic (and they are of no specific importance to me, I don't plan to get an XP-G light - I'm just curious how the emitters compare)


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## MrGman (Jan 14, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

You can always post relevant questions as to lights and lumens on this thread. Just don't need to tell us how fast your water cooled clock speeds are, it doesn't add to this equation.

The distance to the neighbor's wall is the same as for the previous video. The Eagletac P100A2 I believe is a XP-E.

The TLS Turbohead has an orange peel reflector and so the beam is smoother but yes the actual hot spot is still a little smaller than in the Dereelight Turbohead even though it has the smooth reflector you did see that right. The Aspheric lens systems will always appear to work better with the smaller die sizes. We put the XP-G in the Dereelight with the Aspheric and it was ugly in the out of focus corona around the die and the outer rim. I didn't put it in a video because it was ugly. To use a large diameter die with an aspheric would require a different type of first lens or optic directly in front of the die or a much different overall reflector and hot spot focal point. The XP-E would make the tightest thrower problem is the smaller the die the less total lumens from that die and therefore less lux in the hot spot from that tiny die. There is the rub. 

The point in this video is that with the right type of turbohead you can take the 300 lumens of an XP-G and focus it into the spot that we were previously getting with a Cree XR-E R2 and make it a little brighter and definitely with brighter spill. (some people don't want that brighter spill though, but its there). And therefore not have to live with the much wider and softer hot spot of the XP-G in all of the already exisint P60 type reflectors that were being used for Cree XR-E R2s that was not designed for the wider diameter die XP-G. The XP-G in a P60 reflector makes a medium thrower to flood. The XP-G in a TLS Turbohead makes a nice thrower. In the Dereelight its also nice but it does have some rings around the hotspot so its number 2 in this comparisons.

Since a lot of people like the Dereelight lego system for a wide variety of modules and housing combinations, that may still be the #1 choice based on that total lego capability.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 14, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Yea, I've seen a lot of people saying that the R2 still provides a smaller, hotter hotspot - I guess this only holds true with an aspheric. And I was thinking about getting a XP-E to use with an aspheric, as a SST-50 would obviously be far too big. The XP-E would be more for show then use, as the aspheric hotspot would be very small but 60k+ lux if rumors are true. Then again, I'm not sure $60+ on an aspheric setup + an XP-E dropin would be justified; I'll have to see how the SST-50 throws - the 450ish OTF lumens would give it a huge advantage over the XPE's ~150.

The dereelight lego is also awesome, I hadn't realized how easily P60 pills screwed in, and it sounds like they really make an effort to not leave owners of older versions out in the cold when it comes to new dropins. It also made the choice between an XP-G and SST-50 somewhat easier, as the XP-G is unusual in that it requires a larger hole and different reflector assembly so no other LEDs can be used.

I tried to capture a screengrab of the XPG dereelight vs. the P60 SST-50 to get an idea of how focused the light is (pics resized to make the barn roughly the same size; as long as the distance between the light and the barn is the same, they should make a fair comparison):











Wow, assuming the exposure is similar (which may or may not be the case, but when the SST-50 was compared against other lights it certainly appeared to be similar), you'd be hard pressed to believe that the SST-50 was producing twice the lumens of either XPG. I can hardly wait to see what the SST-50 does in a reflector like this 

And believe me, the SST-50 in a P60 is no slouch for throw or overall output - it lights up my backyard quite effectively and throws for well over 100 feet, easily tying my AKOray K-106 Q5 for throw, which has a hotspot only a fraction of the size.

EDIT: Finally got my camera back, figured I'd take a few pictures to show the beam. I adjusted the color balance to show approximately what I was seeing in real life [click on images for full size]:





And a stepped down exposure to show the hotspot:





Yea... I dunno how, but that's the yellowest GJ bin I've ever seen. Nailbender said he tried to get me a good one, but it almost seems like a fluke - it certainly doesn't look like 6500k to me. As in the picture, you can see the blue spill, then near where the hotspot begins an abrupt (and slightly imperfect) transition to yellow; I'm assuming that's where the phosphorus coating kicks in to add yellow, resulting in the slightly uneven pattern on the edge. Either way, it gave me a far warmer light then I was expecting, something I've begun to enjoy outside (the slight blue tint on my AKOray doesn't mix well with the snow).


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## bigchelis (Jan 14, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I just did some beamshoot comparisons of the 2.5in TLS XP-G vs. the Dereelight XP-G turbo head at 96 yards according to google earth.

The Dereelight XP-G wins hands down and is no where near as big as the TLS 2.5in Turbo head. I then put a Dereelight R2 in the TLS Q5 and the Dereelight XP-G turbohead still beat it in throw. Very noticeable throw if I may add at 96 yards.

Now: I may take Lux Readings with my "*AEMC CA813 LIGHTMETER " *To see how the lux compares against the lumens MrGman already took. 

bigC


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## MrGman (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

There is a top secret rumor going around that big Chelis has a 10.5" Integration sphere using the CA813 meter very similar to the first one I built and gave to Gene Malkoff. 


(how do I know,,, I am "starting" this rumor) Since we just finished running about 8 different lights through it to get some calibration factors and readings. Good luck big C. Can we call you Mr Lumens Jr?


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## joshconsulting (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I still demand to know what the margin of error is on a $28 DX lightmeter, if only for lux 

And way to get that SST-50 potted before you could try it in a TLS, I'm likely going to be sending my SST-50 DBS to you for lux and lumen readings along with my AKOray lovecpf


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## MrGman (Jan 18, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> I still demand to know what the margin of error is on a $28 DX lightmeter, if only for lux
> lovecpf


 
The margin of error is ... $28 smackeroonies. Thought you would have figured that out by now.


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## bigchelis (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> I still demand to know what the margin of error is on a $28 DX lightmeter, if only for lux
> 
> And way to get that SST-50 potted before you could try it in a TLS, I'm likely going to be sending my SST-50 DBS to you for lux and lumen readings along with my AKOray lovecpf


 

I will start my own thread for my lumen readings using the 10.5in Sphere. So, far I am very happy with the readings. I will measure for OTF lumens only because it is set-up that way and I don't want to disconnect the meter from the Sphere anymore. It has taken 2 long day/nights for me and MrGman to fine tune it to measure lumens spot on and now that it is good, there is no way I will tamper with it.

SST-50 in DBS (what we call Turbo head) for lumens is :twothumbs .

Thanks again MrGman for all the help.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Aww, I had a rough guess at OTF lumens, was hoping for lux readings as well but it makes perfect sense not to want to disturb a good setup


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## Ny0ng1 (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

First of all, thanks MrGman for the hardwork. 

I haven't read all the replies within the thread but was wondering how an integrating sphere work. I stopped searching after the simple explanation of the concept. Thats because the mathematical equation etc is way beyond me now. But for those interested, i can give a link for a start (credit to www.sphereoptics.com) : 

http://www.sphereoptics.com/assets/sphere-optic-pdf/sphere-technical-guide.pdf


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## flashfiend (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> I will start my own thread for my lumen readings using the 10.5in Sphere. So, far I am very happy with the readings. I will measure for OTF lumens only because it is set-up that way and I don't want to disconnect the meter from the Sphere anymore. It has taken 2 long day/nights for me and MrGman to fine tune it to measure lumens spot on and now that it is good, there is no way I will tamper with it.
> 
> SST-50 in DBS (what we call Turbo head) for lumens is :twothumbs .
> 
> Thanks again MrGman for all the help.



Does this mean you've tested an sst-50 with the DBS? If so, do you have beamshots or better yet video of the results. Btw, was this also with your Anto modded sst-50? I should have a direct drive sst-90 w/ D36 FM26650 host as well as a direct drive sst-50 w/ FM Deep C TurboHead in a FM26650 host very shortly. I will try to post beamshots when I can.

*P.s. I remember what you said about getting regulated over direct drive but I couldn't refuse the few seconds of blinding light. :huh: The FM host gets hot after a few minutes but I hope the turbo head will mitigate it some.


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## MrGman (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

_"*P.s. I remember what you said about getting regulated over direct drive but I couldn't refuse the few seconds of blinding light. :huh: The FM host gets hot after a few minutes but I hope the turbo head will mitigate it some. "_

You don't get it. You don't see any blinding light. The meter with peak reading capture may see it in the first 1 millisecond you won't ever see it. If its over powered the phosphor saturates and you get less output than driving it with less power. We have proven that over and over again.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> _"*P.s. I remember what you said about getting regulated over direct drive but I couldn't refuse the few seconds of blinding light. :huh: The FM host gets hot after a few minutes but I hope the turbo head will mitigate it some. "_
> 
> You don't get it. You don't see any blinding light. The meter with peak reading capture may see it in the first 1 millisecond you won't ever see it. If its over powered the phosphor saturates and you get less output than driving it with less power. We have proven that over and over again.


That's something that continues to confuse me. I've seen graphs of the SST-50 driven beyond 5 amps, and output rises almost linearly (although, I'm not sure if I've seen complete data from anything but the spec sheet). And real world testing showed the SST-90 continuing to have very high efficiency at the 12A+ range (the point at which the testers power supply gave out). Why is output the same for 5.5A vs. 2.8A?

In other news, I'm slightly curious - what would happen if you stuck an M6 with a HOLA in the IS - would it melt the styrofoam, set the meter on fire, or actually give accurate readings?

Also, does anyone who lives near Big C have a luxmeter? I'd like to send my SST-50 DBS in for testing for both lumens and lux, but I'd rather do all of that with one mailing.


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## MrGman (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> That's something that continues to confuse me. I've seen graphs of the SST-50 driven beyond 5 amps, and output rises almost linearly (although, I'm not sure if I've seen complete data from anything but the spec sheet). And real world testing showed the SST-90 continuing to have very high efficiency at the 12A+ range (the point at which the testers power supply gave out). Why is output the same for 5.5A vs. 2.8A?
> 
> In other news, I'm slightly curious - what would happen if you stuck an M6 with a HOLA in the IS - would it melt the styrofoam, set the meter on fire, or actually give accurate readings?
> 
> Also, does anyone who lives near Big C have a luxmeter? I'd like to send my SST-50 DBS in for testing for both lumens and lux, but I'd rather do all of that with one mailing.


 

Its way overdriven for a P60 size module. Running a p60 sized module with a SST-50 at 5 amps showed the lumens dropping real fast. You don't get to "see" and enjoy that ridiculously high output, you see what looks like a 350 lumen light. So then what is the point. You can't compare data sheet numbers in a very good heatsink to that of a small form factor flashlight that this type of LED was never really intended to go in. These things started out being designed as projector light sources not a 6P size pocket rocket.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Its way overdriven for a P60 size module. Running a p60 sized module with a SST-50 at 5 amps showed the lumens dropping real fast. You don't get to "see" and enjoy that ridiculously high output, you see what looks like a 350 lumen light. So then what is the point. You can't compare data sheet numbers in a very good heatsink to that of a small form factor flashlight that this type of LED was never really intended to go in. These things started out being designed as projector light sources not a 6P size pocket rocket.


Yes, I am aware of that. However, I would think you would see at least a few second before the P60 pill started to heat up with output well above 470 lumens. Never tested it, it just seems unusual to me


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## bigchelis (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Yes, I am aware of that. However, I would think you would see at least a few second before the P60 pill started to heat up with output well above 470 lumens. Never tested it, it just seems unusual to me


 

From testing numerous Mag C and D size lights; which are not drop-in, but have a huge heatsink even 2.8A is not ideal for these. The lumens drop.....drop.... and drop. 

MrGman has a 2C Mag MC-E driven at 10 watts or so vs. the Malkoff MC-E P60 at 10 watts or so. We saw very similar results in OTF lumens all the way out to 3 minutes. Yes, I know bin and Vf plays a role but look at the heatsink differences and overall size. Yet: they are about the same driven at the same total wattage.

I will have another 1C Mag with P7 at 2.5A regulated and after I take OTF readings I will see how it compares to the 4 or 5 1D Mag P7's DD already tested. 

bigC


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## flashfiend (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Not too argue too much with you guys but I have both the 2.5A regulated and the DD sst50 and I do see a noticeable difference for a length of time acceptable to me. I know its just my subjective vision but I actually like the few seconds of superlight that I get. I'm using a P60 head but the host is FM's sizeable 1x26650. The head will soon be a FM Deep C Turbo Head which should further help cool the sst50 monster.

I've also got a D36 DD sst90 on order as well for use in a FM 1x26650 D36 host. I'm hoping for acceptable to me results as well. This will be a 3-mode so I can get longer use from Med and Lo.

The 2.5A regulated was very underwhelming to me and I expected more. If I had to choose between that and a TA21 with a XR-E Q5, the TA21 wins for me. The DD on the other blows both out of the water. I know this contradicts your objective measurements but please don't blast me too hard for my subjective preferences.


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## bigchelis (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

We tested using a 6P type hosts with IMR 18650.

You should get close to the full 600~700 lumen potential with a Fivemega 1C hosts and that IMR 4000mAh cell. 

Nailbender uses a Fivemega 3C w/ 3 NiMH C cells for his tests and he is rewarded with nearly double the lumens one would expect with a 6P and single 18650. This has been proven in the Sphere of truth already using a P7 P60 drop-in:thumbsup:

bigC


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## flashfiend (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Nailbender's label on my light says 650lumens. That must be what he got at turn on.


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## MrGman (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



flashfiend said:


> Not too argue too much with you guys but I have both the 2.5A regulated and the DD sst50 and I do see a noticeable difference for a length of time acceptable to me. I know its just my subjective vision but I actually like the few seconds of superlight that I get. I'm using a P60 head but the host is FM's sizeable 1x26650. The head will soon be a FM Deep C Turbo Head which should further help cool the sst50 monster.
> 
> I've also got a D36 DD sst90 on order as well for use in a FM 1x26650 D36 host. I'm hoping for acceptable to me results as well. This will be a 3-mode so I can get longer use from Med and Lo.
> 
> The 2.5A regulated was very underwhelming to me and I expected more. If I had to choose between that and a TA21 with a XR-E Q5, the TA21 wins for me. The DD on the other blows both out of the water. I know this contradicts your objective measurements but please don't blast me too hard for my subjective preferences.


 
you do know that the direct drive draws up to 5 amps at turnon and is burning about 20 watts to give you that little extra light? Big C what was the actual total current draw at turn on with the IMR cell in the direct drive unit?


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## flashfiend (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I never said I was looking for efficiency. Btw, I think I remember reading you guys reached 5.68amps at the tail with your setup before meltdown.


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## bigchelis (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

5.68A at the tail with a single IMR 18650. It could be more with that 26650 IMR 4000mAh cell, but I have none of those:candle:


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## flashfiend (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> 5.68A at the tail with a single IMR 18650. It could be more with that 26650 IMR 4000mAh cell, but I have none of those:candle:



Could be more but I hope not. If max amp handling of the sst-50 is 5amps, then any excess is certainly lost to heat. This is probably why I'm excited about what I've heard of the new JetBeam Raptor-3. It's going to use an sst-50 at what sounds like a regulated 5amps w/ 3x18650 battery format. Manufacturer claims 850 OTF lumens. Looks about as big as a M6 though.

http://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?p=656260


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## sfca (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Please lemme interject here.

Was the tested 470 lumen 2.5A NB SST-50 _*regulated*_?

The driver that read 5.68A at meltdown was_* ----**? *_direct drive.

Seeking a middle-ground, and hoping to push over 500 lumens in a C2 (I'll use it max 1 minute at a time) (with 2 CR123) - 2.8A seems like a good compromise.

If this is true:thinking:, 2.8A direct drive or regulated?


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## joshconsulting (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sfca said:


> Please lemme interject here.
> 
> Was the tested 470 lumen 2.5A NB SST-50 _*regulated*_?
> 
> ...



https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3251066&postcount=37


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## MrGman (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sfca said:


> Please lemme interject here.
> 
> Was the tested 470 lumen 2.5A NB SST-50 _*regulated*_?
> 
> ...


 
Its regulated. The 2.5 amp driver was also regulated. the direct drive was drawing whatever the battery would deliver which was over 5 amps and was actually putting out less light due to overheating fast. Yeah it may have taken more than 30 seconds to get to the point where its worse then running off of 2.5 amps but whats the point of throwing away an extra 10 plus watts of power for nothing and degrading the LED. So you are correct. The 2.8 amp driver should be a very good compromise in a C2 size flashlight. It would also be great to see how they do in the Dereelight turbohead or other brand turboheads in regards to additional heatsinking mass and better cooling. Need to get Joshconsulting's unit over to big C for testing. The sphere is ready.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Its regulated. The 2.5 amp driver was also regulated. the direct drive was drawing whatever the battery would deliver which was over 5 amps and was actually putting out less light due to overheating fast. Yeah it may have taken more than 30 seconds to get to the point where its worse then running off of 2.5 amps but whats the point of throwing away an extra 10 plus watts of power for nothing and degrading the LED. So you are correct. The 2.8 amp driver should be a very good compromise in a C2 size flashlight. It would also be great to see how they do in the Dereelight turbohead or other brand turboheads in regards to additional heatsinking mass and better cooling. Need to get Joshconsulting's unit over to big C for testing. The sphere is ready.



Gimme a few days to play with my new toy . Anyway, having some issues with the tailcap so Jay's sending me a new one. It might happen faster if you found someone with a light meter near Big C. Besides, I like making up numbers based on marginally relevant readings from various people with completely different meters and testing setups. Calculated ranges are so much more fun then cold, hard real world results


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## MrGman (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Gimme a few days to play with my new toy . Anyway, having some issues with the tailcap so Jay's sending me a new one. It might happen faster if you found someone with a light meter near Big C. Besides, I like making up numbers based on marginally relevant readings from various people with completely different meters and testing setups. Calculated ranges are so much more fun then cold, hard real world results


 
Yeah we've noticed.  But we will forgive you when you submit this glorious creation for some real firm measurements. There are lots of flasholics in the San Jose area. One of these other guys has got another meter for taking lux readings. csshih has one.

I should also note that in testing big C's direct drive unit that was drawing over 5 amps I melted down one of my Solarforce clicky switches. It wouldn't switch off and on any more after taking 3 minutes worth of readings. A lot of these switches are not really rated for the amount of current that these new modules are bumping them up through the tailcap. The Surefire twist switch that simply puts a chunk of metal in the path when pressed into contact can handle far more than any of these actual "click" switches that go through opening and closing contacts. Switch contacts for most of these lights were not made to have more than 2 amps run through them. It will be interesting to see if the amount of switch failures go up with more people running SST-50 modules in them.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Yeah we've noticed.  But we will forgive you when you submit this glorious creation for some real firm measurements. There are lots of flasholics in the San Jose area. One of these other guys has got another meter for taking lux readings. csshih has one.



Funny, I had a 2 hour conversation with him about it a day or two ago. Apparently he's not happy with it, but it should be good enough. Was going to mention his name, but I couldn't remember how to spell it 

I'm assuming I pay for shipping one way, you pay the return for the privilege of testing...

I really need to find a better way to conduc heat from the pill. The top 2 turns of the threads are the only part making contact with the reflector, most of it is sticking out and it's slightly smaller then the inside of the DBS so there an insulating blanket of air around it. I have a friend who sells copper strips, I'll talk to him and see if I can work something out unless big c can do something similar when he gets my light.


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## MrGman (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> Funny, I had a 2 hour conversation with him about it a day or two ago. Apparently he's not happy with it, but it should be good enough. Was going to mention his name, but I couldn't remember how to spell it
> 
> I'm assuming I pay for shipping one way, you pay the return for the privilege of testing...
> 
> I really need to find a better way to conduc heat from the pill. The top 2 turns of the threads are the only part making contact with the reflector, most of it is sticking out and it's slightly smaller then the inside of the DBS so there an insulating blanket of air around it. I have a friend who sells copper strips, I'll talk to him and see if I can work something out unless big c can do something similar when he gets my light.


 

You will have to discuss with big C about actual shipping costs. Normally the person with the light pays all the actual costs for getting the testing done. I never paid for shipping to return some one's light back to them who wanted testing. Big C spent over $200 for the equipment and he and I put several hours of work into getting it set up and calibrated. but you can talk to him. I will be on a top secret mission.


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## joshconsulting (Jan 25, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> You will have to discuss with big C about actual shipping costs. Normally the person with the light pays all the actual costs for getting the testing done. I never paid for shipping to return some one's light back to them who wanted testing. Big C spent over $200 for the equipment and he and I put several hours of work into getting it set up and calibrated. but you can talk to him. I will be on a top secret mission.


I'm sure we can work something out. At $5, it's no great loss either way.

Does anyone with a DD SST-50 have tailcap readings with an AW 2600 mAh? I know Big C got 5.68A out of an IMR cell, but according to various sources a DD AW 2600 only gives around 3A thanks to voltage sag, meaning my driver is essentially a DD unless I use an IMR. Can anyone with a DMM confirm?

Still working on heatsinking, I'll see what I can do. Hopefully Wednesday I can get my hands on some copper strips to pack around the module.


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## csshih (Jan 27, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

ouch, you can call me Craig. 

the Extech HD450 is pretty much verified that it doesn't have a photopic curve filter.. final verification with a quark RGB. :sick2:

BUT, I bought it to do runtimes, and that, I'm happy about


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## rickypanecatyl (Jan 27, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> SST-50 in DBS (what we call Turbo head) for lumens is :twothumbs .
> 
> Thanks again MrGman for all the help.


 

Have you actually measured the lux and lumens of a SST-50 in the DBS turbo head? What are the #'s? Thanks!

rick


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## bigchelis (Jan 27, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



rickypanecatyl said:


> Have you actually measured the lux and lumens of a SST-50 in the DBS turbo head? What are the #'s? Thanks!
> 
> rick


 

Sorry, but I did not. I actually measured it only with an XP-G R5 vs. my TLS with an XP-G R4. The TLS had more lux, but the DBS threw more light at 96 yards:thinking:

From what I recall the TLS 2.5in bezel with SST-50 threw the light at 96 yards identical to the DBS w/ XP-G R5, but needless to say the SST-50 had a more intense hot spot due to the added lumens.

I can no longer test lux or my SST-50 in a DBS head. I still have both the meter and the SST-50 P60 drop-in, but I am working on a way to heatsink it better in which case the P60 reflector will be bonded to the pill.

If you want the most possible throw with a SST-50 you must look into the Dereelight DBS MC-E bezel or the TLS OP bezel.

MrGman,
I am trying to pubish my IS Sphere readings, but I need a program to display an excell sheet. Currently; I get gibberish.
bigC


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## joshconsulting (Jan 27, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Big C, it doesn't have many options, but you could give http://tableizer.journalistopia.com/ a try for a quick and dirty option.

As for the light, I talked to a friend of a friend who works at a recycling plant. He says he can get me chunks\strips of pure copper in any size\shape\thickness, so I'm having him bring over a few scrap pieces to try and fit the pill for better heat transfer. That happens Thursday, so the DBS would probably be shipped out (if we do go through with this) Monday or Tuesday.


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## daimleramg (Feb 22, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> It will be interesting to see if the amount of switch failures go up with more people running SST-50 modules in them.


 

I popped 3 McClicky's bought from lighthound with nailbenders 1 mode direct drive SST-50 in FM's 1x26650 host with battery spaces IMR 26650 battery. But with nailbenders 1 mode direct drive D36 SST-90 in FM's D36 26650 with batteryapaces IMR 26650 battery its fine and still using the first McClicky switch.


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## MrGman (Feb 22, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

do you know the tail cap current flow through each of those mods? That would be interesting.


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## daimleramg (Feb 22, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

^ That is the next thing on my purchase list, a multimeter. lol


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## psychbeat (Feb 22, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Im about to get a Fm26650 with Nb sst50 and I hope
I dont kill the switch as well....
Id like to see the OTF on one of these!!


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## flashfiend (Feb 23, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Switch will be fine, but to be on the safe side get the "3-mode direct drive" or "1 or 3 mode regulated" model. Btw, I'm using a McClicky.


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## sfca (Feb 23, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



joshconsulting said:


> He says he can get me chunks\strips of pure copper in any size\shape\thickness, so I'm having him bring over a few scrap pieces to try and fit the pill for better heat transfer.



Hmm.. I swear I saw _somewhere _that there was no difference between the 3M copper tape and copper strips. 

Maybe I was just dreaming.. about flashlights LOL. If this is the case, *that* would be hilarious 

Anyways, have we moved on from copper tape to the next best thing? Let all us CPFers know when you do!


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## MrGman (Feb 24, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

A snug fit of copper from the body of the pill to the wall of the flashlight will do a lot towards thermal transfer whether it is sheet copper or copper tape. the very thin layer of adhesive is not going to hurt the transfer at all if it helps to provide continual contact. 

As to mechanical on/off switches running SST-50 modules with more than 4 amps of current draw, there will be failures. The best would be the standard Surefire twisty tailcap that has no actual little switch contact but the whole plate is a contact.


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## recDNA (Feb 24, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> A snug fit of copper from the body of the pill to the wall of the flashlight will do a lot towards thermal transfer whether it is sheet copper or copper tape. the very thin layer of adhesive is not going to hurt the transfer at all if it helps to provide continual contact.
> 
> As to mechanical on/off switches running SST-50 modules with more than 4 amps of current draw, there will be failures. The best would be the standard Surefire twisty tailcap that has no actual little switch contact but the whole plate is a contact.


 

Will the standard Surefire switch with the twisty work on multiple mode SST-50 P60 drop ins?

Is there a way I could use 2 X 14500 in a Javelin to run a P60 drop in SST-50?


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## MrGman (Feb 24, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

The momentary contact of the Z41 type tailcap (if I have the right part number) that simply presses a plate to make contact to the rear of the exposed Aluminum housing of the flashlight body and the spring contact to the battery is going to be one of the highest current draw capable type switches I have seen in a 6P type flashlight host size/format. Using the momentary feature you should be able to cycle through multimode lights that require such contact.

As to the use of two 14500 batteries I am guessing in series to run a P60 drop in that actually has an SST-50 LED it is totally dependant on the driver. From what I have seen most of the modders are making them run off of low voltage drivers from 4.2V down, not up to 8.4V. If some one is making a buck driver that will take 8.4V and convert it to lower voltage and regulated current to the SST-50 then its not the battery size of the 14500 but the fact that 2 of them in series are above 4.2V. Aren't these 3.7V under load batteries, I don't use them. Always match the battery voltage and total capacity to the driver circuit for the LED and its input voltage range, total current draw requirements from the batteries at the voltage range, and nothing else.


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## recDNA (Feb 24, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

"Aren't these 3.7V under load batteries, I don't use them. Always match the battery voltage and total capacity to the driver circuit for the LED and its input voltage range, total current draw requirements from the batteries at the voltage range, and nothing else. "

I don't know what that means


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## csshih (Feb 24, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

make sure the batteries are compatible with the dropin. what is the input voltage, current draw, etc?


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## MrGman (Feb 25, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



recDNA said:


> "Aren't these 3.7V under load batteries, I don't use them. Always match the battery voltage and total capacity to the driver circuit for the LED and its input voltage range, total current draw requirements from the batteries at the voltage range, and nothing else. "
> 
> I don't know what that means


 

the 14500 batteries are rechargeable lithium ion batteries that are 4.2V under no load and 3.7V under the nominal rated load. Two in series is up to 8.4V. You have to have a driver circuit for the SST-50 that can take at least 8.4V at turn on so as to not be damaged. Then the batteries current delivery capacity has to be capable of meeting what the driver supporting that LED will draw. If the SST-50 is set for 2.5 amps at the LED it may draw 1.4 amps from a pair of batteries in series that start at 8.4V and then load down to 7.4V. It may wind up drawing 2 amps from the batteries as the voltage sags and the regulator tries to keep power constant. So the question becomes can those skinny little AA sized lithium ion batteries deliver those currents or are you wasting your money. 

One battery is rated at 0.750 ampere hours. So at 1.5 amps thats 0.5 hours max run time at best in theory. At 2 amps its less. Batteries will get hot and run time and total number of recharge cycles will go down. Battery may not deliver the total current you want to support the load and so the voltage will sag faster and the light will go dim faster.

So the question is, are you really matching the batteries that you want to use for the sake of size in a skinnier flashlight to the type of LED and pill you want to drive. Assuming you can find an SST-50 with a driver circuit that will run say from 4.5 to 9V.


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## recDNA (Feb 25, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I see. That explains it. When I see Peak running a P7 off of one RCR123 I had hoped I could do something comparable with 2 X 14500 and I think the SST-50 is more efficient than the P7. I was hoping to find a drop-in for the Javelin that could bring it up to close to 400 lumens.

So the best I can do (output wise) with 2 X 14500 seems to be a different XP-G P6? Not much sense in that. The low voltage XP-G Dereelight drop in provides about as much output as I'm liable to get from any XP-G.

I had hoped to build a thin monster output Javelin. 14500's seemed to be the answer.

Thanks for your patience. I'm learning...SLOWLY


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## MrGman (Feb 25, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

no problem. one easy way is to go to the websites that sell the various batteries and simply look at their rated output voltages and milliampere hour rating as a good place to start.


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## MrGman (Mar 1, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fByPzBuhE0

New video in the latest and greatest top secret bunker of truth, comparing the Malkoff Wildcat to the Nailbender MC-E 2C Maglite, against the 5 targets of truth. 

As always all of my videos now up into the 30's can be seen with a simple Youtube search of MrGman9999. I posted 6 videos on the Malkof M61 thread on page 5 as they are all about M61 comparisons.


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## MrGman (Mar 1, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvtcpG4OQz4

This is a hodge podge of the 200 to 300 lumen lights on the wall of truth with the targets moved out of the center so you can see the hot spots of the beams better. Different tints and one incandescent to just show the changes of the color temperature for contrasting views. Since I have a deeper room and white walls to work with, I might as well put them to good use. Hope this helps, enjoy.


----------



## bigchelis (Mar 1, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I like the M61 vs M60 vs Anto P60. They all appear to have the same size hotspot:thinking:


I can definetly tell the warm vs. cool:thumbsup:


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## Toohotruk (Mar 3, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I really appreciate you posting the vid showing the difference between the M60 and the M61...now I'm VERY tempted to get an M61!


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## RTTR (Mar 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

The numbers given for that 2xCR123 Quark Ti-Tact, is that an XP-G R5 emitter?


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## MrGman (Mar 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



RTTR said:


> The numbers given for that 2xCR123 Quark Ti-Tact, is that an XP-G R5 emitter?


 

No.


----------



## Toohotruk (Mar 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I thought that all the Ti Quarks had XP-G R5s. :thinking:


----------



## RTTR (Mar 5, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Toohotruk said:


> I thought that all the Ti Quarks had XP-G R5s. :thinking:



I did too now I'm confused.


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## MrGman (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I thought it was a R4 when it came out but I don't keep track of those things too well. The web site says R4. Certainly the brightness wasn't that great, going to have to ask CSSHIH if you need more confirmation.


----------



## gswitter (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

When they were originally announced, the limited edition Ti Quarks were going to have R4's. But R5 bins became available before the lights shipped, so they got the R5's instead.


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## csshih (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

hmm, well, there isn't really any way to actually tell what bin it is. all I know is that I love the light even though otf drops rather quickly.. though.. it's TI!
http://lumensreview.com/uploads/SS-2010.03.05-21.36.44.jpg


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## RTTR (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



csshih said:


> hmm, well, there isn't really any way to actually tell what bin it is. all I know is that I love the light even though otf drops rather quickly.. though.. it's TI!
> http://lumensreview.com/uploads/SS-2010.03.05-21.36.44.jpg



Drops off rather quickly? I'd have to confirm with a light meter, but I've run it on max multiple times from 15 minutes to an hour and the drop off doesn't seem noticeable to the eye. I know it has some drop off but is really that extreme, or do you just mean drops off to its settling point fast?


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## csshih (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

oops, I was sleepy when I typed that.
The drop off isn't too extreme, but higher than a normal alu light. the head gets rather hot.


----------



## RTTR (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



csshih said:


> oops, I was sleepy when I typed that.
> The drop off isn't too extreme, but higher than a normal alu light. the head gets rather hot.



Oh you're referring some what to the Titanium version? Gets hotter faster than the Alu?

I only have the R5 aluminum


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



RTTR said:


> Oh you're referring some what to the Titanium version? Gets hotter faster than the Alu?
> 
> I only have the R5 aluminum



Yes, LED may get hotter, causing a reduction in output in an Titanium host, compared to Aluminum. Please do a search for Al vs Ti, or something similar, in google CPF only at top of every CPF page. Thousands of words about that.

Bill


----------



## recDNA (Mar 22, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> I thought it was a R4 when it came out but I don't keep track of those things too well. The web site says R4. Certainly the brightness wasn't that great, going to have to ask CSSHIH if you need more confirmation.


 

I can't find the new sphere testing thread with lumens readings? Where has it gone?

I hope we'll soon see output from the new 1.5 amp R5 Thrunite P60!


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found (Mar 22, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



recDNA said:


> I can't find the new sphere testing thread with lumens readings? Where has it gone?
> 
> I hope we'll soon see output from the new 1.5 amp R5 Thrunite P60!


 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/260659


----------



## recDNA (Mar 22, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Thanks, that was odd. I did a ctrl-F and searched for "sphere" and only this thread came up. No way that one dropped to page 2. I don't know why I couldn't find it.


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## MrGman (Mar 22, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/260659

this is the link to bigchelis' thread of readings in the 10.5" sphere.


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## TwitchALot (May 7, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

So does this mean Quark's are overrated in their output, then?


----------



## MrGman (May 7, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



TwitchALot said:


> So does this mean Quark's are overrated in their output, then?


 

Most LED flashlights are simply rated at what the LED is capable of at the source since the flashlight manufacturer doesn't test the complete assembly. If they say its truly out the front (OTF) numbers for a particular model it usually means they had it tested somewhere and it should not be the same as the absolute maximum of an exposed LED on a massive heatsink sitting at the port of an Integration Sphere. I don't keep track of the Quark series, I tested a bunch a while ago and gave them all back. I can only say the models vary and simply let the measured numbers be your guide. 

If you don't like the numbers for the $$, then your search is not over.


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## TwitchALot (May 9, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Most LED flashlights are simply rated at what the LED is capable of at the source since the flashlight manufacturer doesn't test the complete assembly. If they say its truly out the front (OTF) numbers for a particular model it usually means they had it tested somewhere and it should not be the same as the absolute maximum of an exposed LED on a massive heatsink sitting at the port of an Integration Sphere. I don't keep track of the Quark series, I tested a bunch a while ago and gave them all back. I can only say the models vary and simply let the measured numbers be your guide.
> 
> If you don't like the numbers for the $$, then your search is not over.



If anything, then, your lumen measurements would be high compared to what you would see during real use, since the LED's are being heatsinked better than they would be in actual flashlights during the IS tests, correct? I'm just a little bummed Quark outputs are overstated (not with their performance), since I like to have some reference point when I see 50/100/150/200 etc lumens.


----------



## bigchelis (May 9, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



TwitchALot said:


> If anything, then, your lumen measurements would be high compared to what you would see during real use, since the LED's are being heatsinked better than they would be in actual flashlights during the IS tests, correct? I'm just a little bummed Quark outputs are overstated (not with their performance), since I like to have some reference point when I see 50/100/150/200 etc lumens.


 

I think you misunderstood MrGman's comment. He meant to say LED manufacturers use a bare LED on a heatsink and just bring it up to the sphere, but they use power supply (not batteries) and bigger better heatsinks.

Then MrGman actually gets the flashlights not the bare LED's ( although they do that at his work) and using real batteries not a power supply tests the light. Less light than advertised is due to smaller heatsinks in flashlights then when say Cree uses for testing, cell sag, lens, optics or reflector, and probably a couple other things I am missing for sure. Oh, driver efficiency blah blah....


----------



## MrGman (May 9, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



TwitchALot said:


> If anything, then, your lumen measurements would be high compared to what you would see during real use, since the LED's are being heatsinked better than they would be in actual flashlights during the IS tests, correct? I'm just a little bummed Quark outputs are overstated (not with their performance), since I like to have some reference point when I see 50/100/150/200 etc lumens.


 

as big C said, I am testing the complete flashlight as is, not how the LED manufacturers would test the bare individual LED on a massive heatsink. So my numbers are the real actual flashlight out the front readings. Been publishing that for several years nows.


----------



## TwitchALot (May 10, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



bigchelis said:


> I think you misunderstood MrGman's comment. He meant to say LED manufacturers use a bare LED on a heatsink and just bring it up to the sphere, but they use power supply (not batteries) and bigger better heatsinks.
> 
> Then MrGman actually gets the flashlights not the bare LED's ( although they do that at his work) and using real batteries not a power supply tests the light. Less light than advertised is due to smaller heatsinks in flashlights then when say Cree uses for testing, cell sag, lens, optics or reflector, and probably a couple other things I am missing for sure. Oh, driver efficiency blah blah....



My mistake. OTOH, I don't think it makes sense to advertise OTF lumens if you're not measuring... well, OTF of the flashlgiht. :shakehead Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found (May 10, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



TwitchALot said:


> My mistake. OTOH, I don't think it makes sense to advertise OTF lumens if you're not measuring... well, OTF of the flashlgiht. :shakehead Thanks for the clarification.


 
Please let us know which one you're referring to, because the ones I see appear to be spot on to the mfg's claims.


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## TwitchALot (May 10, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



was.lost.but.now.found said:


> Please let us know which one you're referring to, because the ones I see appear to be spot on to the mfg's claims.



None of the Quark's match the stated output. The ones that do are running higher voltage rechargeable batteries.


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found (May 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



TwitchALot said:


> None of the Quark's match the stated output. The ones that do are running higher voltage rechargeable batteries.


 
Preon 1 - stated 70, actual 63 (NiMH)
Preon 2 - stated 160, acutal 148 (NiMH)
Q mini AA - per 4Sevens this one performs to the stated output on fresh alkaline, which was not tested.
Q mini 123 - stated 189, actual 142 on Big Chelis' 10.5' sphere.
Quark RGB - stated 150, actual 150

I don't think I can hold a manufacturer accountable for a 10% difference when it's unlikely the sphere used by 4Sevens was calibrated to Mr. Gman's or Big C's sphere. The Qmini 123 does appear to be quite off from stated lumens.

It's ok to be disappointed that the mini's are not constant current (as I think many of us had previously assumed).

Btw, the current discussion is here in this thread: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/260659


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## TwitchALot (May 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



was.lost.but.now.found said:


> Preon 1 - stated 70, actual 63 (NiMH)
> Preon 2 - stated 160, acutal 148 (NiMH)
> Q mini AA - per 4Sevens this one performs to the stated output on fresh alkaline, which was not tested.
> Q mini 123 - stated 189, actual 142 on Big Chelis' 10.5' sphere.
> ...



With the Preon I and the battery it comes with, it's 58 to 70, which is about 17% off. Now, it does seem to perform better with an NiMH battery. But if you're going to use that, then what should we expect out of the Mini AA, which is 68 lumens to the stated 90 on an NiMH? Should we expect it to be much closer to 90 lumens on an alkaline? Using the numbers with an NiMH battery (which should perform as good as or better than an alkaline), the Mini AA is 25% off from the stated output. 

The Preon 2 is the same case as the Preon I. With the battery it comes with, it's 140 to 160. And after 30 seconds, it drops even further, which you'd expect from the heat, but this only illustrates the discrepancy further (especially compared to an E2DL, for example). The RGB is fine, as the battery is a 3.0 rechargeable (thought it was a 3.7), but overall, it's not a fantastic showing, especially for the Mini 123.


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## csshih (May 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

please note that the preons are tested at 1.5V alkaline batteries, not 1.2V cells.

also, please note that even a difference of *40%* in output is barely noticeable.

sometimes, us flashaholics tend to go crazy over mere numbers.....


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## MrGman (May 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



TwitchALot said:


> With the Preon I and the battery it comes with, it's 58 to 70, which is about 17% off. Now, it does seem to perform better with an NiMH battery. But if you're going to use that, then what should we expect out of the Mini AA, which is 68 lumens to the stated 90 on an NiMH? Should we expect it to be much closer to 90 lumens on an alkaline? Using the numbers with an NiMH battery (which should perform as good as or better than an alkaline), the Mini AA is 25% off from the stated output.
> 
> The Preon 2 is the same case as the Preon I. With the battery it comes with, it's 140 to 160. And after 30 seconds, it drops even further, which you'd expect from the heat, but this only illustrates the discrepancy further (especially compared to an E2DL, for example). The RGB is fine, as the battery is a 3.0 rechargeable (thought it was a 3.7), but overall, it's not a fantastic showing, especially for the Mini 123.


 
you are expecting too much out of this class of flashlight and you cannot make a legitimate comparison to the Surefire E2DL and have the same expectations. Its a different class of flashlight both technically and price wise. If we had tested the quarks that take the Alkaline AA's we might have gotten higher readings at turn on but again the voltage and output would sag anyway. You don't buy this class of flashlight for a constant high lumen output. If you want the performance of a E2DL buy it, If you don't want to pay that price well then, welcome to reality. There are the Fenix 2XCR123 lights a plenty for under $100 that work very well and hold a good output in the TK series, there are the EagleTacs that are also good values for the same.

The Quark mini is a $39.00 light running on 1 battery, why do you expect so much? Any light designed on Alkaline AA's should not be given high expectations either. And also you shoud not take any of the measured lumens readings to be 100% accurate or proof of what every copy of that model light would produce. Test 10 copies you may get 10 different numbers. Again, your expectations are simply too high for an otherwise good low budget EDC light.


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## TwitchALot (May 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



csshih said:


> please note that the preons are tested at 1.5V alkaline batteries, not 1.2V cells.
> 
> also, please note that even a difference of *40%* in output is barely noticeable.
> 
> sometimes, us flashaholics tend to go crazy over mere numbers.....



But even with the 1.5 V cells it comes up short, is my point.



MrGman said:


> you are expecting too much out of this class of flashlight and you cannot make a legitimate comparison to the Surefire E2DL and have the same expectations. Its a different class of flashlight both technically and price wise. If we had tested the quarks that take the Alkaline AA's we might have gotten higher readings at turn on but again the voltage and output would sag anyway. You don't buy this class of flashlight for a constant high lumen output. If you want the performance of a E2DL buy it, If you don't want to pay that price well then, welcome to reality. There are the Fenix 2XCR123 lights a plenty for under $100 that work very well and hold a good output in the TK series, there are the EagleTacs that are also good values for the same.



The comparison is perfectly valid. The E2DL is rated at 200 lumens (and we know how Surefire rates their lights). What does it put it out? A little over 200 lumens- even after getting a little warmer. The E1B is similarly rated. Its stated output is 80, and that's about how much it puts out according to your presumably accurate measurements. Since I trust your measurements to be pretty consistent, there's no reason to believe that your measurements with Surefire lights are significantly more accurate than your measurements with Quarks. I certainly wouldn't expect you to be 40 lumens off when testing the Quarks. My expectation is the same- if you are going to advertise OTF lumens, well, they should be OTF lumens. With the alkalines and the Quarks you tested, the output is definitely not as advertised. Disappointing, to say the least, but it doesn't diminish my love for the Quark line. 



> The Quark mini is a $39.00 light running on 1 battery, why do you expect so much? Any light designed on Alkaline AA's should not be given high expectations either. And also you shoud not take any of the measured lumens readings to be 100% accurate or proof of what every copy of that model light would produce. Test 10 copies you may get 10 different numbers. Again, your expectations are simply too high for an otherwise good low budget EDC light.


The expectation is that if OTF lumens are reported as a spec, they are actually OTF lumens. I'm not sure what your expectations are, but my expectation is that specs are reported as accurately as possible if they are reported in the first place. It's one thing to say "225 lumens" but not refer to anything in particular as a marketing gimmick, but when you state you're measuring OTF lumens, you hold yourself to a higher standard, and if so, that standard should be at the bare minimum, met. 

I have zero issue with how much or how little light the Quarks put out, and I own several. While I've had some issues with tailcaps, they are still my go to lights and I do recommend and EDC them. My AA versions may not be as bright as an E2DL, but so what? That is completely beside the point and a non-issue.

What is an issue for me (and not an issue more than a disappointment, at that) is that Quark lumen ratings are not actually rated accurately when advertised as being OTF lumens. I don't care if a Mini 123 puts out 180 lumens or 140. What I do care about is if its being advertised as X OTF lumens, it's actually X lumens OTF, and not Y. Again, I'm not sure what your expectations are, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect OTF lumen ratings to be, well, OTF lumen ratings.

Now certainly there is always a degree of variation and error in not just measurement, but the LED's themselves. Perfectly understandable. However, do you really think that, short of a dud, there is over a 40 lumen range in say, Mini 123 output that would result in two, perfectly good, Mini's producing 140 and 180 lumens, respectively? Quite frankly, if the range of output is potentially that large between samples, I'd want OTF lumens to be reported at its lowest level at the minimum. In other words, if the output of Quark Mini 123's varies between 140-220 (180 plus or minus 40), I'd want the spec to read that, or 140. In other words, I want to get what is advertised at the bare minimum. 

Of course, I doubt this level of variation exists in Mini's or other Quark lights, but again, that's not what disappoints me. Inaccurate reporting of reportedly accurate lumen ratings does.


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## Bullzeyebill (May 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

TwitchALot, you have made your point, enough said. You now have the responsibility to complain to 4sevens about this issue, as he is the only person who can really handle your concerns. 

Bill


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## TwitchALot (May 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Bullzeyebill said:


> TwitchALot, you have made your point, enough said. You now have the responsibility to complain to 4sevens about this issue, as he is the only person who can really handle your concerns.
> 
> Bill



Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be upset about something I said. What's bothering you?


----------



## Bullzeyebill (May 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



TwitchALot said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be upset about something I said. What's bothering you?



Not upset.

Bill


----------



## sfca (May 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



TwitchALot said:


> *Quite frankly, if the range of output is potentially that large between samples, I'd want OTF lumens to be reported at its lowest level at the minimum.* In other words, if the output of Quark Mini 123's varies between 140-220 (180 plus or minus 40), I'd want the spec to read that, or 140. *In other words, I want to get what is advertised at the bare minimum.
> *
> Of course, I doubt this level of variation exists in Mini's or other Quark lights, but again, that's not what disappoints me. Inaccurate reporting of reportedly accurate lumen ratings does.



I don't think *any* flashlight company reports the "lowest level at the minimum".

With the exception of Surefire I'm not sure any flashlight company underrates their output. Then again, no one else upgrades their (outdated) emitters without publicizing it.

4sevens started the whole OTF lumens thing so they're the only ones that can be called out for it. 
Still, then Fenix, Eagletac, Olight, etc should be called out for not mentioning they used "inflated" emitter lumens and all of the quoted lumens aren't actually available. You should take aim at _those_ companies. 
Start with Thrunite and their 1st drop-in - 260..then 230?

I don't get what all the fuss about the Qminis is anyways.. Doesn't look like a HUGE discrepancy in numbers. 
And_ I'm not_ dissing BigC in any way but a few #s on his page look off.

BTW, this isn't the proper way to deal with a customer complaint - read the title of the thread.


----------



## TwitchALot (May 11, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sfca said:


> I don't think *any* flashlight company reports the "lowest level at the minimum".



Well I'm not sure any flashlight company has that kind of range in their output unintentionally, either. But for the sake of argument, suppose several manufacturers did have wide ranges in output, and none reported the lowest value in that range.

Is there any reason why one company shouldn't start reporting outputs using the lowest value in the range? Is the fact that no one else does it an excuse to NOT be innovative and honest? Hardly. 



> 4sevens started the whole OTF lumens thing so they're the only ones that can be called out for it.
> Still, then Fenix, Eagletac, Olight, etc should be called out for not mentioning they used "inflated" emitter lumens and all of the quoted lumens aren't actually available. You should take aim at _those_ companies.
> Start with Thrunite and their 1st drop-in - 260..then 230?


I'm not familiar with Thrunite in so far as I don't own any of their lights or read any reviews about them, but I am aware of other companies like Fenix stating emitter lumens instead of OTF lumens. And no, I'm not any happier about that. That said, when I get a Fenix (well, already have some, but I digress), I know that I'm not getting OTF lumens, nor is it advertised that way. OTOH, when I get a 4Sevens, I expect to get what's advertised - OTF lumens (same with Surefire, but only out of their reputation). It's a matter of expectation. 



> I don't get what all the fuss about the Qminis is anyways.. Doesn't look like a HUGE discrepancy in numbers.
> And_ I'm not_ dissing BigC in any way but a few #s on his page look off.


What would you call a huge discrepancy? What numbers do you suspect of being off and why? Do you have your own system for testing the output of the lights you suspect for having inaccurate numbers? 



> BTW, this isn't the proper way to deal with a customer complaint - read the title of the thread.


It seems to be implied/assumed that I'm unhappy with the performance of my Quarks. As I mentioned, that is not the case. In fact, the interpretation of G's results are what's interesting and in fact, what the thread is about. Also keep in mind that this line of discussion wasn't instigated by me.


----------



## MrGman (May 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



TwitchALot said:


> But even with the 1.5 V cells it comes up short, is my point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Your comparison of a non regulated low budget light to an expensive highly well regulated light is not valid. Looking at the output graphs of the quark mini's shows the output drop in the first 10 minutes as the peak voltage of the battery goes down and also go back up a little as the battery warms up shows its not going to ever be a "constant" output. And to argue a non constant output light should have some guaranteed value is the problem. 

In general you are preaching to the guy who created the thread to expose the shortfalls of all these lights in the first place by making actual lumens measurements in a johnny come lately kind of way. You are not covering new ground. 

Complaining that the light outputs should be what they advertise in general is a good criticism but nothing new. Again your the guy in the choir preaching back to the Pastor, the virtues of truth. This thread and the original one behind it goes back a lot on this subject and started other threads that cover this subject rather well. We would all like lights that put out what they say if they bother to publish OTF lumens in the first place. However we also have gotten familiar with what reality is. Low cost non regulated lights that don't hold there output as the battery voltage sags simply aren't worth arguing about. So specifically your example of the $39 Quarks should be what they claim because the Surefire E2DL is, just isn't valid. On the other hand you could put in a higher voltage battery and get far more than they claimed if you want to risk possibly shorter operating life or failure, but used in short doses you can get plenty of light out of these things. 

Pointing out that a vendor of a $39 non regulated light even claims X amount of lumens in the first place that they cannot hold even if they met those numbers at turn on is valid, but beating the point to death is not. There is plenty of data out there showing the numbers and the light output fall off over time to prove what this and various other lights actually do. Its then a matter of buyer beware.


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## TwitchALot (May 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



MrGman said:


> Your comparison of a non regulated low budget light to an expensive highly well regulated light is not valid. Looking at the output graphs of the quark mini's shows the output drop in the first 10 minutes as the peak voltage of the battery goes down and also go back up a little as the battery warms up shows its not going to ever be a "constant" output. And to argue a non constant output light should have some guaranteed value is the problem.



I'm not sure why you're making this point, as you measured the Minis at turn on (when none of this would be a problem), and they do not match up with the advertised OTF lumens. What difference would the regulation make at turn on using a fresh battery?



> In general you are preaching to the guy who created the thread to expose the shortfalls of all these lights in the first place by making actual lumens measurements in a johnny come lately kind of way. You are not covering new ground.


What are you talking about? I was using your results, which I assume to be pretty accurate given that measurement standards are few and far between ATM (and faith in you on my part), to realize that the Quarks _appear _to have a discrepancy between what 4Sevens rated and what you rated. I only expressed disappointment in this fact. How you came to the conclusion you did above is still a mystery to me.



> Complaining that the light outputs should be what they advertise in general is a good criticism but nothing new.


I said it was disappointing, not that it was an issue with me or that I was unhappy with the Quarks. If they weren't bright enough for me, I would have returned them. The fact that I didn't should say something. 



> Again your the guy in the choir preaching back to the Pastor, the virtues of truth. This thread and the original one behind it goes back a lot on this subject and started other threads that cover this subject rather well. We would all like lights that put out what they say if they bother to publish OTF lumens in the first place. However we also have gotten familiar with what reality is. Low cost non regulated lights that don't hold there output as the battery voltage sags simply aren't worth arguing about.


Please clarify about how I was "preaching to the Pastor, the virtues of truth." You were the one that stated, "Its a different class of flashlight both technically and price wise. If we had tested the quarks that take the Alkaline AA's we might have gotten higher readings at turn on but again the voltage and output would sag anyway. You don't buy this class of flashlight for a constant high lumen output. If you want the performance of a E2DL buy it, If you don't want to pay that price well then, welcome to reality. There are the Fenix 2XCR123 lights a plenty for under $100 that work very well and hold a good output in the TK series, there are the EagleTacs that are also good values for the same."

It's what got us on this tangent, but it's certainly not my fault. I don't have any issue with the brightness of the Quark series or its performance. Now it seems that you (and others) are simply taking offense to the fact that I stated OTF lumens should be OTF lumens, which is of course, different from not advertising OTF lumens in the first place. Is stating that so offensive, and if so, why to you in particular? 



> So specifically your example of the $39 Quarks should be what they claim because the Surefire E2DL is, just isn't valid. On the other hand you could put in a higher voltage battery and get far more than they claimed if you want to risk possibly shorter operating life or failure, but used in short doses you can get plenty of light out of these things.


Again, you bring up the amount of light that comes out of the Quarks. What does that have to do with anything? As for my claim, how is it not valid? I'm not seeing your argument. I never claimed a Mini should put out the same or greater amount of light than an E2DL. The only reason I used that example, and the E1B, is because Surefire has X rating, and you got X lumens out of your test, which is not what 4Sevens got with their IS setup. That may be due to a difference in setup, of course, but then again, I doubt you, Surefire, and 4Sevens use the same setup. 



> Pointing out that a vendor of a $39 non regulated light even claims X amount of lumens in the first place that they cannot hold even if they met those numbers at turn on is valid, but beating the point to death is not. There is plenty of data out there showing the numbers and the light output fall off over time to prove what this and various other lights actually do. Its then a matter of buyer beware.


So you admit my point is valid. What's the issue, then? Any other point I'm making was simply the result of you assuming that I expected the Quarks to put out more light (E2DL levels) or that I was unhappy with the performance of the Quarks. None of which I mentioned, or is even true, at that. Even now it seems like you think I think that Mini's should put out more light and better regulated light, or that I'm comparing Mini performance to E2DL performance. Once again, that is not the case, and never was the case if you read my posts. 

What I was comparing was E2DL performance to E2DL stated lumens, and Mini performance to Mini stated lumens. The end result is that people who clearly love 4Sevens and the Quark series have rushed in to defend 4Sevens under the assumption that I'm attacking them or the performance of their lights, when neither was actually done. The only problem with such a result is that A) I never attacked 4Sevens, B) I love 4Sevens and the Quark lights, and C) I've discussed the matter with 4Sevens and am content with the response. 

So, if you and others are trying to defend 4Sevens by stating that other companies don't even rate OTF lumens at all, or that the Mini is not an E2DL class light, that's fine. But wholly unnecessary. As is attempting to blame me for "beating to death the issue" because of assumptions that you made and the discussions that resulted from them.


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## DM51 (May 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

TwitchALot... you've made your point... at great length, and several times. Your argument is beginning to sound like an endless self-justifying loop, and I think we've had enough of it. Please let's move on, before I start to wonder if you might just be trolling here...


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## TwitchALot (May 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



DM51 said:


> TwitchALot... you've made your point... at great length, and several times. Your argument is beginning to sound like an endless self-justifying loop, and I think we've had enough of it. Please let's move on, before I start to wonder if you might just be trolling here...



No issue on my end DM51; it's just that I don't like being falsely accused of doing something I'm not any more than the next guy. If my questions weren't sincere I (personally) wouldn't bother asking them.


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## MrGman (May 12, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Just one point of clarification and I want to be done with this issue as well. Regarding non-constant current regulated lights such as the Quark Mini's and others; testing them in general. Normally the practice would be to use a brand new battery or a fresh off the charger battery. However, and this is why I don't like them. At the time I tested them I was not informed of this, just given the lights with batteries. I cannot remember if I was told that the batteries were freshly topped off the night before by the person giving them to me or not. but the light was turned on and off a few times just to check the beam pattern and get it centered in the sphere prior to the actual let it cool down and turn it on "real" test. Thus the issue as to how fresh is fresh on the battery and are we really measuring its best peak turn on value comes into play? Probably not? If I had known that it wasn't a well regulated light I would not have bothered to test it to begin with because you have the issue of how good are the batteries. Then there is the issue of does this type and brand of battery have more sag than another one. Would it have higher peak turn on with a better or newer battery, can't say with a sample base of 1 battery or one pair of batteries as given for the light types in question. I tested each model with whatever battery was given me and wasn't looking to do a whole field and slew of testing as to the best possible performance with every battery brand out there. Especially since they aren't my lights and my time is very limited. This is not a problem with fully regulated lights such as a Surefire E2DL because the output isn't going to droop if the battery if 5% of of its peak charge for example. The only real issue for most well regulated constant current type driven lights is the actual warm up of the LED itself. That is why I say a comparison cannot be made from non regulated lights and how well they do or don't hold their lumens values to those that are regulated and do. Its just not a fair comparison in that respect. Why vendor's choose to publish numbers for a light that isn't going to hold it past the first 1 to 5 minutes based on current draw from the batteries is a whole other mystery and issue, but I am not going to rehash it again.

Just for the record I personally don't own and Quark lights and would not buy any of the ones that are not fully regulated and am not a "defender" of such. That does not mean they are not good lights for what they are in their price range, I EDC a Malkoff MD2 with M61. I tried to provide points of data to people who asked and could get a light to me at no cost to myself other than test time. I'm done. 

your happiness with a particular product may be inversely proportional to how much you really know about it. (for all you guys saying man that is so true about my wife, can't help you there either:nana. goodnight


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## rider (May 14, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



sfca said:


> I don't think *any* flashlight company reports the "lowest level at the minimum".
> 
> With the exception of Surefire I'm not sure any flashlight company underrates their output. Then again, no one else upgrades their (outdated) emitters without publicizing it.



I've never seen a single HDS / Ra light that tested at less than the advertised OTF lumens. 

A great deal of the problem for less expensive lights is that they can test a top-binned outperforming LED in a production light in an IS, get the OTF lumens, and advertise them. Certainly since the lights coming off of production probably aren't tested beyond ensuring they light up, all the cumulative variability in the entire drive circuit, particular emitter, etc. is going to add up and almost inevitably result in a light putting out less OTF lumens than the outlier spec model. I can't put a whole lot of blame on this type of maker, other than wishing they'd say "150 TYPICAL OTF lumens" rather than a more definitive and inaccurate "150 OTF lumens".

So this is one way by which you can get 20% less OTF lumens than advertised. 

Certainly some makers have ridiculously inflated OTF numbers or use numbers for a bare emitter - not mentioning any names here, since we're all aware of many of them, and that's nothing but complete deception and false advertising, in my opinion. (most mass market lights go this route).

There are makers like Surefire who may not individually test each light for output, but they underrate their lights by enough that even a poor performer will meet specs, and by lottery an overperformer may greatly exceed the published spec.

A fourth category (probably the least common) is a maker like HDS / Ra, which individually calibrates each light to ensure you're getting the published OTF lumens. Even an "underperforming" emitter is still guaranteed to get you a certain OTF lumens and runtime. A higher performing emitter from the chosen bin is still only going to get you the same published lumens, but the bonus is added runtime. Of course, HDS also uses constant a Power driver...


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## RedfishBluefish (May 23, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

 Jeeze!


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## Good day (Oct 2, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Thanks MrGman for you helpful infomation,you must spent long time for this thread ,beyond question this is not a easy job.Good job :thumbsup:


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## TITANER (Oct 24, 2010)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*



Good day said:


> Thanks MrGman for you helpful infomation,you must spent long time for this thread ,beyond question this is not a easy job.Good job :thumbsup:


 Yes,thank MrGman for your great test and very helpful info:thumbsup: ,this is not a easy work really .i just read another great thread posted by bigchelis,thank MrGman for your help to that thread:thumbsup:.


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## dankyball (Mar 16, 2011)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

thank MrGman for your great test and very helpful info，collection is not a easy work...Really helpful to me.
Danky


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## CSSA (Mar 25, 2011)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

I wonder if the published lumen ratings aren't a lot like the published frequency response of "affordable" HIFI speakers. If the room in which the speaker is tested is perfect for that speaker, if the microphone sampling the sound is placed in just the right spot, and if every other variable is perfect for that speaker, then the sound produced is actually what was advertised. However, you aren't going to get that performance in a real world home environment. I wouldn't be surprised if flashlight manufacturers optimize the conditions of their test to produce the best numbers to use to advertise the product that they want to induce us to buy. If more manufacturers start using standardized test parameters we will have a better chance of being able to make comparisons between brands, but as is, I suspect that the usefulness of published lumen output is primarily useful in comparing flashlights within a brand.

Thank you for publishing these independent tests so we can make comparisons between manufacturers.


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## MrGman (Mar 27, 2011)

*Re: Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II*

Thanks to all for the kind words. I did the testing when I could to provide information that we could all use about these various lights. I think that numerous manufacturers had gotten more honest about their lights because of this type of independent testing. As to the comparison of light output versus speakers. Speakers are dependent on room acoustics and the lights are not. The total lumens test is only done correctly one way, in an Integration sphere. So I don't think its a good analogy to work with but the question as to the vendor's trying to use "the numbers" to make their lights look better on paper is certainly valid. The only question there is do you take the initial peak number at turn on or after the light warms up. There is now a standard to let the light warm up for 3 minutes and use that reading which some companies do. I certainly believe that the days of the light manufacturers simply taking the LED manufacturers data sheet that says the LED puts out X lumens at Y amount of drive current and assume that is what will come out the front of their flashlight are over. They all know now that they are only kidding themselves that an LED that will put out 300 lumens by itself on a heat sink in front of an integration sphere port being driven with a constant current source at its rated max current is not the same as being driven in a 1 inch diameter flashlight with a rippled reflector and a non AR coated piece of glass in front of it. Some do actual testing, some at least have the decency to take the vendor data sheet number and multiply by 0.75 - 0.70 to knock off typical expected losses for lens and reflector. But the real truth is that the lights are getting better and better for the money we spend.


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