# Surefire vs ...



## rmorgan84 (Jun 6, 2008)

Right i have always had an appreciation of quality items such as good flashligts, quality knives etc etc.

I own a surefire G2 & L2 and they are great, however this forum has opened my eyes to other possibilities such as Tiablo, Fenix, Deerelight, Jetbeam, etc...

I am going to buy another light now and have been thinking of either the 6P/9P with a Malkoff drop in. But there are a few other options i am considering.

So my question is this; Are Surefire top of the class in terms of buid quality, or are the other lights mentioned just as good?


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## jake25 (Jun 6, 2008)

Dereelight would be your best buy for a high end P60 flashlight

CL1H 3SD !


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## Hitthespot (Jun 6, 2008)

There are other good quality Flashlights other than SureFire. To ask if other lights are just as good is like pooring gasoline on a fire around here. As mass produced lights go, In my opinion SureFire is the one all others are eventually measured against, and yes they are great lights. Are there others that are good? I like Fenix, Inova, Streamlight and Myshondt and a few others. There are short run Flashlights that are of extremely good quality, and yes they are talked about here on CPF. Novatac, Myshondt, McGizmo, HDS to name a small few. Hang around, buy some different brands, and then you can answer your own question, and maybe answer it for all of us too.

Bill


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## stitch_paradox (Jun 6, 2008)

You might wanna change the title of the thread!:naughty:

:welcome:


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## rmorgan84 (Jun 6, 2008)

Hitthespot said:


> There are other good quality Flashlights other than SureFire. To ask if other lights are just as good is like pooring gasoline on a fire around here. As mass produced lights go, In my opinion SureFire is the one all others are eventually measured against, and yes they are great lights. Are there others that are good? I like Fenix, Inova, Streamlight and Myshondt and a few others. There are short run Flashlights that are of extremely good quality, and yes they are talked about here on CPF. Novatac, Myshondt, McGizmo, HDS to name a small few. Hang around, buy some different brands, and then you can answer your own question, and maybe answer it for all of us too.
> 
> Bill


 
No intention of causing an argument, just after the facts. 

It just seems to me that from looking at various photos that the surefire appears to be the more refined and polished item, some of the others look a bit cheap and cheerful.


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## sirahren (Jun 6, 2008)

In my 'unenlightened' opinion, I have yet to find one. Pentagon and Fenix I like and i think they offer great value but they are not as tight tolerance wise as Surefires. My old arc light was close. Same with my pelican, streamlight and inova. Again all good, and worth their price but not as smooth and finished. I was very dissapointed in my Jetbeam. 

But its not a fair competition. Surefires are much more expensive than most of those. Would you expect a Bently to be in the same class as a BMW or a Landcruiser? They all do great things in different categories at different price points...


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## cernobila (Jun 6, 2008)

rmorgan84 said:


> Right i have always had an appreciation of quality items such as good flashligts, quality knives etc etc.
> 
> I own a surefire G2 & L2 and they are great, however this forum has opened my eyes to other possibilities such as Tiablo, Fenix, Deerelight, Jetbeam, etc...
> 
> ...



Lets face it, all these lights are a bunch of aluminium parts (bezel, body, switch) and yes, some are "plastic". There are a great deal of good manufacturers out there that do as good a job as SF. If you don't want the Surefire "drop-in" in favour of the Malkoff then why not consider other hosts for this drop-in……Consider if you want to go rechargeable or primary, if rechargeable, then choose a light system which will accept the wider cells such as the 18650, this advantage will come in handy. If you want to build a system, pick a brand that has a proven record of versatility......good luck.


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## curlyfry562 (Jun 6, 2008)

Surefire + Malkoff = The Holy grail of flashlights


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## LumenMan (Jun 6, 2008)

stitch_paradox said:


> You might wanna change the title of the thread!:naughty:
> 
> :welcome:


 
Good advice... Don't mention Surefire & Fenix in the same sentence, otherwise this thread could go :shakehead


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## stitch_paradox (Jun 6, 2008)

curlyfry562 said:


> Surefire + Malkoff = The Holy grail of flashlights



I wouldn't say holy grail now since Gene made his drop in more available every week, it might have been before.

But, I would say that this is the best light I have right now.


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## xcel730 (Jun 6, 2008)

Asking which light to pick is a lot like asking your buddies which girlfriend you should end up marrying. You'll get a lot of mixed feedbacks and responses, but only you'll be able to answer it. Anything anyone tells you, just take it with a grain of salt ... most of us have our preference in terms of which brand to choose and we'll try our very best to convince you. This ultimately will lead to unfriendly debates.

So here's my grain of salt:

I have the 6P with z59 clicky tailcap and Malkoff M60, and I love it. I spent about $110 altogether for that combination. Personally, I like the classic look for 6P, and the way it feels in my hands is indescribable. I purchased a couple of 6P clones (there are many), which I will not name, but they either look or feel cheap, or it doesn't give me the same feeling as when I'm holding a 6P. I ended up selling the clones on BST.

Brand recognition and brand loyalty also play a big role here. Some people will inheritantly trust one brand over another. For example, many will buy Advil instead of Brand X aspirin even though they contain the same active ingredients. Also, big name such as Coke, their intangible assets (e.g., their name) is worth more than their tangible assets (e.g., plant & equipment) in their financial statements (I didn't check to confirm). I remember back in high school, JanSport was really really popular. This inevitably created a lot of clones. Kids will feel proud of owning a JanSport vs. a JinSport (this is an actual brand I saw), even if they look the same. I'm not going to deny that I get a warm fuzzy feeling by owning a Surefire, and that's one of the reasons why I buy them. However, I'm one of the most unloyal consumer you could find ... just because I love one Surefire light, it doesn't mean I love all their lights. Being unloyal to brands allows me to explore other options available. 

In a nutshell, it really depends on your preference and what you're willing to spend. Some people don't mind paying more to get a Surefire light, and some people prefer getting budget or value lights. As I mentioned, my 6P with M60 cost $110, you could probably get a clone with generic P60 lamp for about $25.

Okay, I'm really rambling here, so I'll zip it up now. Good luck in your search, and :welcome:


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## KeyGrip (Jun 6, 2008)

Do you need this light to help you serve a certain purpose? The various manufacturers you'll see named here all have their various strengths and weaknesses and none of them makes the single best light for everybody everywhere. Also, while I don't believe you titled the thread to start trouble, we get plenty of people who start SureFire vs. Brand X debates to stir things up. Hope this helps.


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## rmorgan84 (Jun 6, 2008)

KeyGrip said:


> Do you need this light to help you serve a certain purpose? The various manufacturers you'll see named here all have their various strengths and weaknesses and none of them makes the single best light for everybody everywhere. Also, while I don't believe you titled the thread to start trouble, we get plenty of people who start SureFire vs. Brand X debates to stir things up. Hope this helps.


 

I'm new to the forum so was not aware of these debates.

I'm a UK cop and i just want a tough, reliable light and if surefire is going to last longer and be more reliable when i need it then i don't mind paying extra for it....


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## chaoss (Jun 6, 2008)

As other kind forumites have said, THE light for you is the light that YOU like. Everyone has a different opinion on what that is and it's up to you to decide.


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## GPB (Jun 6, 2008)

I like Surefire's and wish I could afford to have a whole slew of them...but I can't. For my lighting needs ( and that's a VERY important phrase in this discussion ) I can better equipe myself with 3 lights that cost what one SF does. 

I don't chase badguys, or depend on my light to save my life.... If my light fails, I just get another one...no biggie. Also, if you are already planning on putting a Malkoff in it, you'll be paying for a very high quality lamp assembly that will sit on your shelf. 

For $150 bucks you could get yourself a nice single cell EDC, a 2 x CR123 powerhouse and a rechargeable set up. It won't have the build quality or come with the customer service you'd get with a surefire.....but you might enjoy it more.


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## KeyGrip (Jun 6, 2008)

rmorgan84 said:


> I'm a UK cop and i just want a tough, reliable light...



Okay, good. So we have toughness and reliability at the top of our requirements, with price being of less concern.

Now:
Do you want an incandescent light, an LED light, or an HID light?

Do you have a preferred batter size or chemistry? (there are pros and cons to everything.)

Do you want rechargeable batteries or primary (non rechargeable) ones?

Do you have a size limit? 

What beam pattern would you prefer: throw, flood, balanced..?

Do you want the light to have multiple output levels, strobe, SOS?

What switch type do you prefer
-forward clickie: click switch which allows momentary on.
-reverse clickie: click switch which allows momentary off.
-twisty


Those are some of the basics. The "Welcome Mat" section of this forum has a long list of frequently asked questions for you to reference. I hope this helps.


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## rmorgan84 (Jun 6, 2008)

*Do you want an incandescent light, an LED light, or an HID light?*

LED for extended run time.

*Do you have a preferred batter size or chemistry? (there are pros and cons to everything.)*

CR123 i've found a very cheap supplier of panasonic works out £1 per battery

*Do you want rechargeable batteries or primary (non rechargeable) ones?*

Primary, simply because i'm a bit lazy and don't want the hassle of charging batteries etc. 

*Do you have a size limit? *

No bigger than a 2 x C cell mag, but ideally smaller

*What beam pattern would you prefer: throw, flood, balanced..?*

Balanced with a slight bias towards throw.

*Do you want the light to have multiple output levels, strobe, SOS?*

Strobe & SOS = No, a low level = Yes

*What switch type do you prefer*
*-forward clickie: click switch which allows momentary on.*
*-reverse clickie: click switch which allows momentary off.*
*-twisty*

Don't mind i'll adapt to which over the light comes with


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## curlyfry562 (Jun 7, 2008)

E2D LED seams to fit your description of what you are looking for. 

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/24531/sesent/00


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## RGB_LED (Jun 7, 2008)

:welcome:rmorgan84! I am not an LEO so I don't assume to know how you use your light but, based on your answers, the SF 6P + M60 may not be the ideal choice as it doesn't have multiple light levels. But, if that is not necessarily a deal-breaker, then it fits the bill quite nicely. Btw, I too, have a SF 6PD (polished) on the way that I plan on putting an M60 into as well, mainly for its cool factor.

I won't start a debate (yes, as previously indicated, there are definite camps here for SF and other lights - I'm not in either camp as I have all kinds of lights) but, based on your answers, I would suggest the Fenix TK10 which has high output, multiple light levels, runs on CR123's... https://www.fenix-store.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_85&products_id=438 The only thing it doesn't have is a lot of runtime on high (about 1.5 hours) but it does have a second level that will run for about 10 hours. Oh, and there was another thread by an LEO who gave his endorsement on using a TK10 as a duty light.

Good luck with your choice! Let us know what you end up choosing and give us any real-world stories on how you use your light.


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## rmorgan84 (Jun 7, 2008)

RGB_LED said:


> :welcome:rmorgan84! I am not an LEO so I don't assume to know how you use your light but, based on your answers, the SF 6P + M60 may not be the ideal choice as it doesn't have multiple light levels. But, if that is not necessarily a deal-breaker, then it fits the bill quite nicely. Btw, I too, have a SF 6PD (polished) on the way that I plan on putting an M60 into as well, mainly for its cool factor.
> 
> I won't start a debate (yes, as previously indicated, there are definite camps here for SF and other lights - I'm not in either camp as I have all kinds of lights) but, based on your answers, I would suggest the Fenix TK10 which has high output, multiple light levels, runs on CR123's... https://www.fenix-store.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_85&products_id=438 The only thing it doesn't have is a lot of runtime on high (about 1.5 hours) but it does have a second level that will run for about 10 hours. Oh, and there was another thread by an LEO who gave his endorsement on using a TK10 as a duty light.
> 
> Good luck with your choice! Let us know what you end up choosing and give us any real-world stories on how you use your light.


 
Yeah the dual output isn't a deal breaker, however it would be nice, in an different thread my attention was drawn to the fact that you can mod the tail cap with a resistor to give a 6P dual output.

However my reservations are

a) I'm not the most technincial of people so might screw it up and break the light

b) how rugged is a home-modification going to be and will it stand up to daily use. I don't want the light to fail at a critical time!


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## Marduke (Jun 7, 2008)

I think you'd be nothing but happy with a Fenix TK-10

Simple, easy, extremely durable, versatile, bright when it needs to be, long running when it needs to be.


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## rmorgan84 (Jun 7, 2008)

Marduke said:


> I think you'd be nothing but happy with a Fenix TK-10
> 
> Simple, easy, extremely durable, versatile, bright when it needs to be, long running when it needs to be.


 

That does look like an attractive option!


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## adamlau (Jun 7, 2008)

I highly recommend a Mac's Customs light. Based on the Maglite platform with solid build and performance characteristics. See Beamshots: Mac Mini-HID (MOP) vs. SureFire MN16 of how a Mac Mini-HID fared against a well-known, high-output SureFire lamp. See Beamshots: Mac Mini-HID (MOP) vs. M2 + 1S R2 WH (SMO) of a single-emitter R2 getting dusted  . Offhand, any D26 Malkoff would have been smoked by the R2 at these distances.


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## rmorgan84 (Jun 7, 2008)

adamlau said:


> I highly recommend a Mac's Customs light. Based on the Maglite platform with solid build and performance characteristics. See Beamshots: Mac Mini-HID (MOP) vs. SureFire MN16 of how a Mac Mini-HID fared against a well-known, high-output SureFire lamp. See Beamshots: Mac Mini-HID (MOP) vs. M2 + 1S R2 WH (SMO) of a single-emitter R2 getting dusted  . Offhand, any D26 Malkoff would have been smoked by the R2 at these distances.


 

What are the cost of such lights and where can they be purachased?


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## Crenshaw (Jun 7, 2008)

the problem is that people mix opinions with facts. good luck with finding a new light..

Personally, ill reccommend a Fenix-P1D-Q5, and a Thrower, either Tiablo A9s or Dereelight V2 DI . For surefire, i will reccommend a C2 and a malkoff P60. 


Crenshaw


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## adamlau (Jun 7, 2008)

rmorgan84 said:


> What are the cost of such lights and where can they be [purchased]


$200-$400, typically. You can find them in Mac's Customs and CPF's Custom & Mod B/S/T.


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## ToeMoss (Jun 7, 2008)

rmorgan84 said:


> *Do you want an incandescent light, an LED light, or an HID light?*
> 
> LED for extended run time.
> 
> ...




Based on your replies, you may want to add the Dereelight CL1H V.30 2SM to your list of lights to consider.


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## rmorgan84 (Jun 7, 2008)

ToeMoss said:


> Based on your replies, you may want to add the Dereelight CL1H V.30 2SM to your list of lights to consider.


 
I can't seem to find specs regarding run time and lumens for this light!


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## ToeMoss (Jun 7, 2008)

rmorgan84 said:


> I can't seem to find specs regarding run time and lumens for this light!



Runtime: "Best performance using 18650, over 2.1 hours runtime to 50% on high, and over 20 hours on low"

Lumens: I don't believe Dereelight has published lumen data, but one dealer lists 210 lumens on their website, and I would expect comparable performance to the TK10 since they have the same emitter and power requirements. The TK10 is advertised as 225 Lumens, so that should give you a rough Idea.

The TK10 seems like a very good choice as well, I've got several Fenix lights and like them all. If you do go for the Dereelight, based on your desired features you would probably prefer the 2SM (two stage) vs the 3SM (three stage).


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## Gunner12 (Jun 7, 2008)

If you don't mind AAs, the Fenix L2T V2.0 could also work, along with a bunch of other lights like the Olight T25, or Fenix L2D.

For CR123s, also look at the Olight T20, Fenix P3D, Lumapower M1, Dereelight CL1H, and maybe a few others.

Dereelight does not post lumen ratings because every LED is slightly different and will have a different lumen rating. They do post the drive current though, so you can calculate approximate at the LED lumen from that.


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## RobertM (Jun 8, 2008)

rmorgan84 said:


> *Do you want an incandescent light, an LED light, or an HID light?*
> 
> LED for extended run time.
> 
> ...



I'd say that based on your description, an E2D LED (as curlyfry562 mentioned) or an E1B would fit your requirement nicely.

My E1B is still my favorite of all my lights and is the one I carry everywhere with me. The E2DL is next on my purchase list


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## WildChild (Jun 8, 2008)

A L1 could fit the description too! Personally, I prefer the L1 two levels twisty switch over click on/click off/click on UI to switch levels. It should also be more reliable in the long term. The low level is bright enoush for most tasks and the high level, while not the brightest is really useful for medium range illumination!


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## Triple A (Jun 21, 2008)

I am not a police officer, but have several close friends who are. I asked them, and they suggest that a "forward" tactical tailswitch may be important, depending on how you use the light. Will you be using this light with a weapon? If so, they suggested that tactical tail switch operation may be important. 

I know its second hand information, but I hope it is helpful.


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## Ecko (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm not a cop but I do own the Fenix TK10 and it's a great light. It has a solid feel to it, good throw, and at 225 lumens is plenty bright for any situation you will need it for. Plus it comes with a very reasonable price tag.


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## adamlau (Jun 23, 2008)

Pick up a DBS V2, CL1H V4, or both and let the products speak for themselves.


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## uspc_e2 (Jun 23, 2008)

E2D LED like others said. I got one and that thing is very impressive in terms of throw and flood. :welcome:


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## artec540 (Jun 24, 2008)

sirahren said:


> In my 'unenlightened' opinion, I have yet to find one. Pentagon and Fenix I like and i think they offer great value but they are not as tight tolerance wise as Surefires. My old arc light was close. Same with my pelican, streamlight and inova. Again all good, and worth their price but not as smooth and finished. I was very dissapointed in my Jetbeam.
> 
> But its not a fair competition. Surefires are much more expensive than most of those. Would you expect a Bently to be in the same class as a BMW or a Landcruiser? They all do great things in different categories at different price points...



In some ways both BMW and Landcruiser are better than the Bentley, butI don't think BMWand Landcruiser are comparable either. To compare things as complicated as cars, with as many different sets of abilities, you have to specify your criteria. While flashlights aren't nearly as complicated as cars, you still have to specify your criteria, whether you're talking about materials, machining, weight, size, finish, throw, spread, run-time, and so on, to say nothing of price. And on top of all those, there is the matter of what each of us likes and is most interested in.


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## FlashBang700 (Jun 25, 2008)

Maybe I'm just a novice, but if I were looking for a light for my crew of 110 workers and need solid customer service and a great warranty. would this change anyones recomendations. I'm a Surefire lover in general although I'm not impressed with the lower end stuff.
Flash


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## GimmeLumens (Jun 25, 2008)

I own a half dozen Surefire lights but nothing compares to the newest work of engineering art in my flashlight collection: the Led Lenser P7. I bought one about 2 weeks ago and I can say without a doubt that it is the finest flashlight I have ever used. Not many CPFers consider focusing as a valuable feature on a flashlight. I have to admit that until now there were hardly any focusing flashlights that I owned where I actually _used_ the focus, not just to play with, but in actual real-life situations. The Led Lenser P7 focus is what focusing flashlights have always been trying to become. It's bright as heck and the styling borderline work of art.


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## Aluminous (Jun 25, 2008)

FlashBang700 said:


> Maybe I'm just a novice, but if I were looking for a light for my crew of 110 workers and need solid customer service and a great warranty. would this change anyones recomendations. I'm a Surefire lover in general although I'm not impressed with the lower end stuff.
> Flash



I'll reply here to your more-detailed version of this question (posted in the warranties thread):




FlashBang700 said:


> Well that's about the best summup of warranty info I've found on the web.. But here is my question. If you are supplying your group of 100+ men on your team of guys. What would you actually buy.
> Waranty and actual customer service is key for me.. 100 of any lights is a company investment.
> They need to be rugged and go for at least 2 hours before dying.
> Less than 150Euro each.
> Flash


If you don't mind using CR123 batteries (an ongoing expense, although you could buy them in big bulk discounts at that kind of volume), I would go with Surefire. Currently, 150 Euros = $232 USD, which should be enough to buy any of their current flashlights listed at http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/max_segment_listing/disp/strfnbr/6/sesent/00 except for the M3, M4, M6, and Kroma. They do have one that doesn't use CR123s and instead has a special rechargeable battery pack, the L7 LumaMax, which is US$225 and runs for 2.5 hours. 

In alphabetical order, others to consider (also primarily CR123A like Surefire) that offer rugged lights with good warranties are Coast (the 'LED Lenser' company, affiliated with a German company), Inova (they have a rechargeable option), Leupold (they have a service center in Germany), Pelican, PentagonLight, Streamlight, and Underwater Kinetics (they have a service center in Germany).

If you want AA-battery lights to be able to use NiMH, it seems that currently the best option is probably Fenix flashlights (L1D, L2D, L1T, L2T, E20) purchased from www.fenix-store.com (this dealer provides extra warranty coverage) -- well below your budget, but people say they are still rugged.

Barbolight (based in Spain), HDS Systems, and NovaTac also offer rugged flashlights with good warranties, but they are smaller companies that might have delays handling that large of an order. (It might not be a problem, I'm just assuming it could be, try asking them if you are interested in their stuff.)


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## Wattnot (Jun 25, 2008)

Here is another way to look at things around here . . . . 

Every light we talk about in here, if it's not one that gets virtually every person giving the "thumbs down" or "sign of the devil" to then you should be safe. I've yet to see that here. 

So what I'm saying is if it "makes it" on this board in any fashion, you are safe buying it. There are many "this one is better than that one" threads but they are agruing Coke vs Pepsi and Mustang vs Corvette, etc., so like others above have already stated . . . GET THE ONE THAT SUITS YOUR NEEDS AND THAT YOU LIKE! If you still don't know, figure out what batteries you want to use (just wait until you get tangled in THAT web) and then choose a light based on a type of battery. For some people that actually works out better in the long run.

It doesn't matter anyway because if you hang around here long enough, you'll soon own way more than you need!:laughing:


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## nickbizzlex13 (Jun 25, 2008)

If your looking for an awesome light i highly recommend the Wolf Eyes M90 Rattlesnake. I have one of these and it kicks butt. Check it out heres the link light comes with batteries and charger!! This light can also be upgraded and extended.

http://www.pts-flashlights.com/products/product.aspx?pid=1-140-20-40-88-6040

You can also purchase the 13v kit for it, which will run the lumens factory eo-13 at a whopping 700 lumens!!!! 

http://www.lumensfactory.com/cart.php?cat_id=3&sub_cat_id=6

My top choice for a kick butt light that wont let you down..:thumbsup:


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## flashy bazook (Jun 25, 2008)

One small point on the Malkoff drop-in with the Surefire 6P formfactor (ie, the Surefire original plus any one of several clones):

you can get different levels by getting an appropriate tailcap. You can get strobe, multiple levels, or even "infinitely variable" capability. Surefire itself sells just the tailcaps, with the surefire tactical capability (ie, locked-mode plus momentary) plus a lock-out capability.

So the fact that the basic setup just has one level should not dissuade you from considering this solution (ie, a 6P compatible flashlight base, the drop-in, plus one of many different tailcaps with the capability you want).

of course initially the cost might be higher than getting a complete flashlight (though not that much if you get, eg, Cabela's XPG clone which has been on sale for $20, including a knife!), but over time you can just change drop-ins and have the ability to upgrade and enjoy the latest LEDs at lower average cost.


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Jun 25, 2008)

+1 for Wolf-Eyes. While their Fit/Finish may not be quite as good as Surefire's, they more than make up for it with features and design.


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## BigTennisBall (Jun 26, 2008)

Buy the new Led Lenser P7...!!!!

It kills the Fenix TK10 ( i have one of each ).. 

Give the boys at Coast a call

www.ledlenserhp.com

Mine blitzes everything i've compared it too.. 

david


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