# Alright! That's it. D cell LiONs are the answer



## JimmyM (Oct 6, 2006)

I think the answer to a lot of issues and combinations, etc is the Lithium Ion D cell. 5-6AH. No more leaking CBP1650s, no more voltage sags under a 7 amp load. I mean really. FM, AWR, et al have built great battery packs for the D cell M*g but they are still at the mercy of the AA cell.
2D Mag275, 2D-ROP-HI, 3D Mag85, 4D Mag625, 5D 65W IRC.... All with more than a few minutes of run time.
I've accepted it as my mission to find and buy LiON D cells.
I will find them. Oh yes. I will.


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## Tronic (Oct 6, 2006)

There was a limited run for a GroupBuy from Emilion:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/94798
They are all sold and they will not be made again.

Maybe you have see the Feeler for c-size liion from AW?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/106075
They have 3600 - 3800 mAH.

-Daniel


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## LumenHound (Oct 6, 2006)

JimmyM said:


> I've accepted it as my mission to find and buy LiON D cells.
> I will find them. Oh yes. I will.


First in line for any extras you uncover!


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## JimmyM (Oct 6, 2006)

Tronic said:


> There was a limited run for a GroupBuy from Emilion:
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/94798
> They are all sold and they will not be made again.


Don't be so sure. I'm working on something. Not with emilion though.
Nothing concrete. Just investigation and inquiry so far.

How many of these things do you think the group could absorb?


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## Amonra (Oct 6, 2006)

JimmyM said:


> How many of these things do you think the group could absorb?



As with everything else in the world i guess it will depend on the price.

I'd be interested in a few, some suitable chargers would also be nice.


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## LumenHound (Oct 6, 2006)

It didn't take too long for Emil to sell 300 of them in a group buy at $12.50 each plus shipping last time. Now that those cells have been put into service and seem to be performing well there is no reason to think that demand for more wouldn't be high if the cost was not out of line.
Emil's cells ended up having a tested capacity of around 4200~4300mAh.
Are these the cells your after?


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## lexina (Oct 7, 2006)

I think a lot of people held off buying the D-LiIons because they were not protected. At that capacity, a lot of bad things can happen if you don't handle them right. 

If someone could come up with protected D-LiIons, I am sure the interest will be as great as that shown for Aw's proposed protected C-LiIons.


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## jar3ds (Oct 7, 2006)

there is very high interest and demand for these guys.... if they are protected all the better


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## Geologist (Oct 7, 2006)

Agreed - due to large cell capacity - many of us held off due to the protection issue -

I too would like to see them available! All my NiMH lights never seem to be fully charged when I want to use them - this would be great!


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## JimmyM (Oct 7, 2006)

Interesting link. I hadn't seen those.
The ones I'm looking at are 33.9mm x 60mm and 5200mAh. We'll see. I need to see what the minimum lot size and price are. They are offered in a protected version.


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## cnjl3 (Oct 7, 2006)

lexina said:


> I think a lot of people held off buying the D-LiIons because they were not protected.


 
I am in the above group but now i wish i had purchased some D size Li-ions





It has been a good while now since the group buy ended and so far i havent heard of any D size Li-ion trouble. 
I guess the unprotected cells in regulated hosts like AWRs HD or Winny's PIR is enough protection? 
I also agree that another group buy would be money in the bank for whoever is able to pull it off


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## Tronic (Oct 7, 2006)

JimmyM said:


> Interesting link. I hadn't seen those.
> The ones I'm looking at are 33.9mm x 60mm and 5200mAh. We'll see. I need to see what the minimum lot size and price are. They are offered in a protected version.


WOW, there are protected D-cell Liions out there! :rock: 
Great news! I hope you can make a deal and get this for a good price. 

Good luck!


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## lexina (Oct 8, 2006)

Good luck, Jimmy. And while you are sourcing the protected D LiIons, maybe you could also keep an eye out for protected C LiIons? Aw doesn't seem to have much luck with his sources so far and the interest is huge. Most any bulb that can run on a D LiIon shuld be able to run on a C LiIon at a more compact size with a trade-off in run-time. Finally we may see an end (well, at least a big drop) to all the different sizes and the myriad adapters required.


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## missionaryman (Oct 8, 2006)

If these were protected and didn't have some girlie protection circuit (so they could run a 4 AMP bulb like the ROP and all the WA bulbs) then the interest would be huge. You could probably safely buy 1000, you'll sell the first 300 in a week and then a steady trickle till they're all gone. The same would go for protected C cells but they would have to have more capacity than the best 18650 out there to be worth the while - 3000mah or just over.
It currently costs about $60 for a good carrier full of cells and charger so at about $15 each you'd be right on the money. They can be charged with Alin10123's multicurrent charger and a pair of charging magnets.


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## JimmyM (Oct 8, 2006)

The protected cells are good to 8A. You'd have to use a soft-start to stay under that using a 64275, or other ~6A bulb.
I have to wait to hear back from the manufacturer. It's only been a few days.
How do I attach a file? I have the spec sheet for the unprotected cells.


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## Lucero (Oct 8, 2006)

I'm in for a dozen. 
I would think that a complete set of 2,3,4 D-cells, the appropriate bulb(s), reflector & lens would be great kit(s) to sell to nearly anyone who owns a D Mag. 
*Lucero*


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## NewBie (Oct 8, 2006)

It would be very good if datasheets were provided for the cells, so folks knew exactly what they had.


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## missionaryman (Oct 8, 2006)

I don't know how to attach files - you might be able to right click and paste it in? There's a way pleanty of people have done it but maybe you need to post it as a picture.


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## JimmyM (Oct 8, 2006)

It's a PDF. If some one knows how to post it as an attachment... that would be great.


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## Tronic (Oct 8, 2006)

You can host it with www.savefile.com and post a link.

Note:It is free, but all files with no downloads for 30 days will be deleted.
Maybe someone have a better idea.


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## ciam (Oct 8, 2006)

VB script's attachment function seems to have been disabled on these forums. If what you want to post is text only, just copy and paste from your Adobe Reader. If you want to post pics along with your text, you could find a web space provider to host your PDF file and post the link to it here.


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## JimmyM (Oct 8, 2006)

Tronic said:


> You can host it with www.savefile.com and post a link.
> 
> Note:It is free, but all files with no downloads for 30 days will be deleted.
> Maybe someone have a better idea.



OK. Here's a link.

http://www.savefile.com/files/143161

If someone wants to beat me to the punch. Go ahead. Otherwise I'll be pursuing several hundred of these. Once I have more feedback from the manufacturer, I'll post a feeler to see how many unprotected versus protected I'll need to get. First things first.


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## Nvr2brt (Oct 8, 2006)

JimmyM,

I'd be in for at least 12, maybe 15 of the protected cells. 

FWiW...

AGM has been a premium supplier of RV batteries for years. I've never heard anything negative about their products. All positive, so to speak. (No pun intended.)

Nvr2brt


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## aosty (Oct 8, 2006)

JimmyM - If you can get'em and the price is reasonable, please put me down for a dozen protected cells... both C & D.


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## etc (Oct 8, 2006)

I want some LiON D cells.


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## missionaryman (Oct 8, 2006)

I'd like to go for about 12 of each D & C cells - protectedbut I'll have to sell something expensive to buy them...


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## cnjl3 (Oct 9, 2006)

I am hoping that you are able to make this "buy" a done deal! 
Sounds like there is "plenty" of interest. 
Someone in AWs C size li-ion feeler thread had an unofficial count of about 770 cells - with most asking about the option of D size li-ions. I would be interested in about 10+ of D-size li-ions depending on the price


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## Tronic (Oct 9, 2006)

missionaryman said:


> I'd like to go for about 12 of each D & C cells - protectedbut I'll have to sell something expensive to buy them...


According to the AGM homepage I think they dont make C-cells. Right?


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## JimmyM (Oct 9, 2006)

Tronic said:


> According to the AGM homepage I think they dont make C-cells. Right?


That would appear to be correct.


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## Mark_Paulus (Oct 9, 2006)

I know I would be in for at least 4, possibly 8 Protected D Cells.


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## missionaryman (Oct 9, 2006)

What's really interesting is that they also make a 4000mah 34490 - d cell across but c cell up and down so you could get three into a 2.25 D host for a sub 3D 1+ hour running non sagging MAG85...
No battery carriers just three drop in cells - where have these guys been all my CPF life!


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## Led_Blind (Oct 9, 2006)

i will take some 2


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## Thiokol (Oct 10, 2006)

Count me in as well. This would be the holy grail in batteries. Will be glad to rid farewell to my cobbled together ,problematic battery packs and say goodbye to expensive tri-boring.

Please !!!!!!!!! make this happen.

Thank you.


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## Bhustan (Oct 10, 2006)

I'd be in for some of these...probably 8 D's.

Please notify me if the GB happens.

Peace,
-M


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## cy (Oct 10, 2006)

I've still got 4 unused D li-ion cells still sitting from the original buy ..... mostly because I cannot positively ID these have PTC devices built in. 

no they are not for sale... li-ion cells this large need to be treated with care!

my D li-ion cells probably will end up in a four cell pack for my HID. with protection devices of course.


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## JimmyM (Oct 10, 2006)

I've really been thinking about the potential danger of Li-Ion cells this big. AW won't even sell C cells without protection. These Ds have more capacity. Is a protected D cell with an 8 amp limit of real interest? Or would there be more demand for the unprotected cells? I don't want to get into a mess of "who gets to buy the unprotected cells".


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## Tronic (Oct 10, 2006)

JimmyM said:


> I've really been thinking about the potential danger of Li-Ion cells this big. AW won't even sell C cells without protection. These Ds have more capacity. Is a protected D cell with an 8 amp limit of real interest? Or would there be more demand for the unprotected cells? I don't want to get into a mess of "who gets to buy the unprotected cells".


Lets calculate the power that you can get from the protected cells with 8A limit.

2D: 2 x 3.7V x 8A = 59.2W
3D: 3 x 3.7V x 8A = 88.8W
4D: 4 x 3.7V x 8A = 118.4W

I think this is enough for most people.

I am only interested in protected cells.

I am interested in about 8-12 protected D cells.

One thing is not clear to me: 
If you speak from "protected" cells.
Do you mean the "Enhanced Protection (K2)" that only have "Overcharge" and "short-circuit" protection 
or do you speak from the "Electronic protection"?


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## wquiles (Oct 10, 2006)

cy said:


> my D li-ion cells probably will end up in a four cell pack for my HID. with protection devices of course.


Same here. I will not use mine without the protection cirtuit 

Will


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## Tronic (Oct 10, 2006)

cy said:


> my D li-ion cells probably will end up in a four cell pack for my HID. with protection devices of course.


Be very careful with solder to li-ions! If you solder too long or too hot you can kill the PTC. One of my D li-ion died this way  (And the other were sold)
I think it only work if you spot-weld it.


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## Bhustan (Oct 10, 2006)

I would only be willing to purchase protected D's as well. Otherwise, too risky in my mind...


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## aosty (Oct 10, 2006)

Repeating what others have said... protected, please!




aosty said:


> JimmyM - If you can get'em and the price is reasonable, please put me down for a dozen protected cells... both C & D.


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## JimmyM (Oct 10, 2006)

Tronic said:


> One thing is not clear to me:
> If you speak from "protected" cells.
> Do you mean the "Enhanced Protection (K2)" that only have "Overcharge" and "short-circuit" protection
> or do you speak from the "Electronic protection"?


It would be the K2 cells. The "electronic protection", I believe, are the external boards for series conneted cells. I'll look into it.


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## missionaryman (Oct 10, 2006)

have they got back to anyone yet? I don't think they will, it looks like they are mainly concerned with supplying direct to military applications. Maybe someone like AW would have a better chance with them if he is actually a business - I don't know if he is.
Or better still if anyone lives near there in Scotland they might be able to arrange something over the counter, local preference sometimes goes a long way.


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## JimmyM (Oct 10, 2006)

missionaryman said:


> have they got back to anyone yet? I don't think they will, it looks like they are mainly concerned with supplying direct to military applications. Maybe someone like AW would have a better chance with them if he is actually a business - I don't know if he is.
> Or better still if anyone lives near there in Scotland they might be able to arrange something over the counter, local preference sometimes goes a long way.


It's a long shot, sure. But I gotta try. Why would they turn down a 500-1000 cell sale?


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## missionaryman (Oct 10, 2006)

That's how I hope they feel, they should go for it - off the shelf product for them. Nothing special just more sales, surely they'll bite.


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## ciam (Oct 11, 2006)

I was hoping it's rated for higher amperage. Now, it's good for a Mag85, but a Mag625 would be off limits. Depending on the price, I would want 3-5 protected cells.


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## petrev (Oct 12, 2006)

Hi

How about 5xIRC34490 in a 4D running an Osram IRC-65W @ 18V=120W-3770TorchLumen (apparently) for ~30+minutes  

Possible ?

Pete


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## missionaryman (Oct 12, 2006)

petrev said:


> Hi
> 
> How about 5xIRC34490 in a 4D running an Osram IRC-65W @ 18V=120W-3770TorchLumen (apparently) for ~30+minutes
> 
> ...


 should be - it's only about 7AMPS


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## Robban (Oct 12, 2006)

Provided they are "safe" and that they can fire up a Mag85 (or more) without tripping I'd surely be interested in a few provided the price isn't anything crazy.


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## petrev (Oct 12, 2006)

Hi

Great Thanks MM

Found out the K2 protection is a one-time protection and kills the cell if fully triggered in either mode.

Can supply packs with protection circuit-board but as cells are at the top end of D-Size 34mm then with shrink-wrap and wires may well be over Mag-D bore.

Supply cells to pack manufacturers but are very concerned about safety issues . . . ?

Pete


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## JimmyM (Oct 12, 2006)

I've added files to the download site I used before. This is a link ot the whole project.

http://www.savefile.com/projects/1026248

It looks like the "protection" is a built in 8A fuse along with a charge limiting circuit that cycles the cell up and down at it's peak voltage if that level is reached.
Perhaps a higher rating is available.
I'll be getting the unprotected cells for myself. The Hotdriver/PIR will shut off at low voltage and I'll use a fuse in the tail cap. I really don't want an irreversable 8A limit.


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## JimmyM (Oct 12, 2006)

I just heard back from the manufacturer a couple of times today. Things are moving forward. Please make sure to read the K2 enhanced protection literature regarding the "protected" cells.


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## JimmyM (Oct 12, 2006)

petrev said:


> Hi
> 
> Great Thanks MM
> 
> ...


 
Have you been in touch with them as well?


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## petrev (Oct 12, 2006)

JimmyM said:


> Have you been in touch with them as well?


 
Hi

Phoned them and checked what they meant by fuse and what the K2 protection was. Leaving major discussions to you.

Cheers Pete


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## missionaryman (Oct 12, 2006)

so does that mean if you trigger the protection that the cell is gone for good?
do they have specs on the size after the protection is fitted?


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## therisensun (Oct 12, 2006)

JimmyM said:


> I'll be getting the unprotected cells for myself. The Hotdriver/PIR will shut off at low voltage and I'll use a fuse in the tail cap. I really don't want an irreversable 8A limit.



JimmyM,

Thanks for locating these cells and for looking into the posssibility of a group buy so they can be made available to CPF. Your time and effort is greatly appreciated. I really hope this comes to pass.

I am definetly interested in the *UN*protected cells as well. I'm certain there's a "time" factor before the protection circuit "trips" --- but it seems like the start-up surge current for many popular bulbs at least runs the risk of tripping a protection circuit with an 8 A limit. It would be a shame to ruin a cell or cells just by turning on the light. I'm certain there are CPF members with much more knowledge than myself who could shed some light on this subject.

I've been using ten of Emillions unprotected D li-ions for some time without incident. I use a Triton charger (they don't even get warm to the touch when charging) and hotdrivers for most of the lights with the D li-ions. But the truth is I've never allowed them to get discharged even close to the level that the hotdrivers low voltage protection circuit might kick in. It's always been my understanding that it's best to top off the li-ions often rather than continuously discharge them close to the lower limit. I also underastand it's important to match the cells as closely as possible -- (balance or parrallel charge and keep an eye on the "health" of the cell as they age) -- and especially important to carefully check the voltage of each individual cell BEFORE charging. My experience has caused me to beleive (and in fact be very confident) that the unprotected D li-ions can be safely used. 

I am in no way diminishing the appropriate and prudent concerns raised by other members (I had the same concerns myself) -- and I deeply respect the decision some have made not to use unprotected cells. I did a lot of research on RC sites and Forumns -- and researched chargers very extensively --and I still proceeded with trepidation. My experience however has been very positive and I would not hesitate to continue to use unprotected cells. In my opinion the very concerns members have mentioned is evidence that they would exercise the necessary due deligence to safely use these cells. 

Max


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## bwaites (Oct 12, 2006)

UHHH, guys....

A lamp with a 7 amp steady state is at least double that on start up. It's what we run into with 18650's and some the Welch Allyn lamps. 

So I wouldn't count on cells protected with an 8A fuse to run the 7-8 amp lamps.

That said, I'm interested in unprotected D cells.

Bill


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## bombelman (Oct 12, 2006)

Depending on the price, I'm interested in 4 Li-Ion D-sized cells..

Good luck !


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## JimmyM (Oct 12, 2006)

If the number of cells that can be absorbed by the group drops too far (because of the type of built in protection) there might not be enough to reach the lower purchase limit. I'm waiting to hear back from them regarding quantities and pricing.

I'm with therisensun. Most of the bad stuff that I've seen with lithiums is the result of some physical damage. A video link was posted here in CPFs. Really bad stuff happens when the cell is damaged. No protection will help it then. A fused installation with a low voltage shutdown is all the protection you need during use. Over heating them during use happens if you load them too hard. That's what the fuse is for. You'll have to invest in a quality charger to avoid charging related damage. Multi-channel, balancing, etc. Personally, I like slow chargers. Nice and gentle. 10 amps will run a 64625 and IRC lamps. Plenty of potential there. I need something to fill my 5D HAIII! If you need more than 10-12 amps, look into LiPo RC packs rated for 20+C.
I'll buy 300 of them for myself if I have to.


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## JimmyM (Oct 12, 2006)

Who has links to good lithium chargers? Don't even jokingly list the DSD!


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## yellow (Oct 12, 2006)

I m also in for at least 4 protected Ds
... if there is a chance to have them shipped here to Europe


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## Rommul (Oct 12, 2006)

missionaryman said:


> so does that mean if you trigger the protection that the cell is gone for good?



Have we had a definitive answer on this yet.

I am still interested.

I am not that interested in high power 100W bulbs just something that will run an ROP high for over an hour or a well overdriven Lux V for a couple of hours.

Unprotected cells aren't much of an option for many people who don't want to put the people they live with at risk (and I do realise there are risks with protected cells as well).

Perhaps there should be inquiries into whether they would fit a different type of protection for our order? The price premium to me would be worth it.

At any rate I am interested in a 4-6 cells (at least).


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## cnjl3 (Oct 12, 2006)

bwaites said:


> UHHH, guys....
> 
> A lamp with a 7 amp steady state is at least double that on start up. It's what we run into with 18650's and some the Welch Allyn lamps.
> 
> ...


 
For those of us with regulated lights that have some kind of "soft start" (either AWRs HD & Winnys PIR)don't they also limit the current at start up? 
I am definitely "in" for unregulated cells


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## yellow (Oct 12, 2006)

I m also in for at least 4 protected Ds
... if there is a chance to have them shipped here to Europe


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## therisensun (Oct 12, 2006)

JimmyM said:


> Who has links to good lithium chargers? Don't even jokingly list the DSD!




Try some of these:

http://www.electrifly.com/charger.html 
http://www.finedesignrc.com/battchargechargers.asp 
http://www.maxamps.com/index.html?lang=en-us&target=front.html&lmd=38994.367176 
http://www.fmadirect.com/new_applications/LithiumPowerSolutions/index.htm 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/117653 
http://www.batterieswholesale.com/battery_chargers.htm 
http://www.helidirect.com/product_info.php?products_id=1504 http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1327 
http://www.onlybatterypacks.com/showitem.asp?ItemID=10232.12 
http://www.onlybatterypacks.com/showitem.asp?ItemID=10235.12 
http://www.onlybatterypacks.com/showitem.asp?ItemID=11114.12 
http://www.onlybatterypacks.com/showitem.asp?ItemID=11115.12 

I apologize if I got any duplicates,

Max


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## bwaites (Oct 12, 2006)

Everyone please remember that the 123 cells that blew up, and that have had extensive testing, were all PROTECTED cells!

LiIon cells can do BAD things if mistreated. AWR's and Winny's circuits were NOT designed for protection of D sized LiIon cells, so far as I know. (Maybe one of them can chime in here?)

Everyone considering these cells should watch this video at Valence:

http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp

I still use unprotected LiIon cells, but I DON'T let my kids or wife use them unless I am standing right there with them.

Bill


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## JimmyM (Oct 12, 2006)

This one looks really neat.
http://www.helidirect.com/product_i...roducts_id=1504 http://www.all-battery.com/index.as...ROD&ProdID=1327
This and 4 single cell D battery holders. Individually charge and balance 1-4 cells at once. They've also got 5,8, and 12 cell models.


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## andrewwynn (Oct 12, 2006)

Like i said when the emilion D group buy happened.. 'get them now' because they will not likely happen again.. hope i'm wrong though they are awesome... if they ever come to fruition again i'd be in for 50-100.

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Oct 12, 2006)

bwaites said:


> LiIon cells can do BAD things if mistreated. AWR's and Winny's circuits were NOT designed for protection of D sized LiIon cells, so far as I know. (Maybe one of them can chime in here?)
> Bill



the PIR does have low-voltage shut-down but you need to program it, not sure if it shuts down or just blinks a warning, but pretty sure it shuts down.

Hotdriver shuts off at 93% of lamp voltage.. usually works out to well over 3V/cell for LION and works exceptionally well for a 2D or 3D LION solution. 

In addition.. the soft-start can be configured to limit current inrush to barely over the running current which works exceptionally well for protected 18650 solutions.

-awr


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## MikeHunt79 (Oct 12, 2006)

I'd like 2 x protected D cells if it goes ahead. Any specs or info on C cells?


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## Led_Blind (Oct 12, 2006)

1D Lion in a cut [email protected], 4 Uxxx.... hmmmmmmmm gimmie!


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## cnjl3 (Oct 13, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> the PIR does have low-voltage shut-down but you need to program it, not sure if it shuts down or just blinks a warning, but pretty sure it shuts down.
> 
> Hotdriver shuts off at 93% of lamp voltage.. usually works out to well over 3V/cell for LION and works exceptionally well for a 2D or 3D LION solution.
> 
> ...


 
I have a working PIR and I can tell you that it will cut off at whatever voltage you program plus you can also "program" warning blinks(but i dont use that feature).

So that is good news that "both" regulators should be enough protection for "over discharge" and as long as you have a good charger then that should be enough protection for over charging. Thank you Andrew & Winny. Sounds like "regulated" hosts is the 'ONLY' way to go.


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## morelightnow (Oct 13, 2006)

i still use unprotected LiIon cells, but I DON'T let my kids or wife use them unless I am standing right there with them.

Bill[/QUOTE]

the only lights i let other people use are my led's. i keep the bright lights to myself. 




i will gladly buy unprotected cells if that is the only kind we can get.


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## JimmyM (Oct 13, 2006)

Whew! Well... I've been in contact with distributors for the @GM cells as well as [email protected] cells. It's like I'm interviewing for the privilege of buying their cells. I understand these things can be dangerous. But I can go and buy a 5 gallon can of gasoline with a lot more destructive power than a few batteries. Both are safe if handled properly. I'm still working on it. So far most are more interested in designing packs for me. It's like they're trying to up-sell. Maybe I'll tell them I want 2-6 cell long stick packs no larger than 35mm in dia. Of course they want to add all kinds of irreversible protection and electronic battery gauge stuff.
I did get a price on the [email protected] cells by the case of 50. Too pricey.

Anyway. Just an update. I'm still on it.


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## missionaryman (Oct 13, 2006)

I would really rather not get stick packs, I'd like the flexibility to use them in a variety of lights.

How pricey is too pricey?


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## JimmyM (Oct 13, 2006)

$46USD/ea


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## missionaryman (Oct 13, 2006)

that is expensive but put it into perspective with what's currently available:

Fivemega adapter 9x14500 to 3D $38 + $81 in batteries = $119 for 11.1v/2250mah
3 x SAFT D LiIon = $138 for 11.1v/5000mah

Fivemega adapter 6x14500 to 2D $37 + $54 in batteries = $91 for 11.1v/2250mah
2 x SAFT D LiIon = $92 for 11.1v/5000mah

it's probably the normal reaction to baulk at $46.50 per cell but truth of the matter is at the moment we pay more, much more per mah than these work out to and we mess about with holders and with magnets and multiple cell packs. It's even more expensive to get bored bodies with holders to fit larger cells in for more capacity.
Do they look like reducing their price for larger volume?


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## JimmyM (Oct 13, 2006)

I haven't heard back yet from all the distributors. That was 46/ea in a case of 50. I'll see if the price would drop if I got 5 cases.


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## aosty (Oct 13, 2006)

MM.... great point on the cost!


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## Tronic (Oct 13, 2006)

JimmyM said:


> $46USD/ea


Is this the VL34570?

The data sheet say: 

Built-in protection devices ensure safety in case of:
- Exposure to heat
- Exposure to direct sunlight for extended periods of time
- Short circuit
- Overcharge
- Overdischarge

This is exactly what I need!!!


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## Mel_PL (Oct 13, 2006)

missionaryman said:


> Fivemega adapter 9x14500 to 3D $38 + $81 in batteries = $119 for 11.1v/2250mah
> 3 x SAFT D LiIon = $138 for 11.1v/5000mah
> 
> Fivemega adapter 6x14500 to 2D $37 + $54 in batteries = $91 for 11.1v/2250mah
> 2 x SAFT D LiIon = $92 for 11.1v/5000mah



AFAIK SAFTs are good for low-load applications and the advertised capacity is reached with <100 mA load.
M.


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## ciam (Oct 13, 2006)

OK, after I've read the K2 protection of the AGM cells, I'm not too impressed. It seems to provide overcharge and short-circuit protections only, but not over-discharge and thermal protections. They claim to have tested the cells for thermal shock but it's not the same as thermal protection. Am I right? The irreversible open circuit in case of overcharging is quite disturbing.

The unprotected cells could tolerate up to 10A continuous discharge current, 2A more than the protected ones. If they could handle the few milliseconds of surge current in the beginning, which I guess likely, they could power a Mag625. So, I'm now hesitating if I should switch to unprotected cells as well, and use external circuit for protection.

EDIT:

The SaFT cells look very good. They have everything that I'm looking for, with up to 11A continuous discharge current and 21A pulse discharge current. With discharge curves being similar, they beat AGM cells hands down, except that the positive end looks a little weird and fragile. But I agree they're a little pricey. Will follow this thread closely. Thanks very much, JimmyM!!!


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## Tronic (Oct 13, 2006)

Mel_PL said:


> AFAIK SAFTs are good for low-load applications and the advertised capacity is reached with <100 mA load.
> M.


That's true for the 3.0V primarie lithium. But we speak from 3.6V Li-ion. The Datasheet is here.
This cell can handle 11A continuous discharge current!


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## andrewwynn (Oct 14, 2006)

great job on the cost analysis MM.. looks like a bit of a no-brainer to me.. however.. actually pulling off a group-buy for D SAFT will be tricky.. not to mention.. not likely they can be sold for 'cost' unless the person arranging the deal is planning on forking over a few hundred of his own $ just to get them all to everybody. (and that doesn't say anything about dealing with 50 at a time!). 

-awr


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## missionaryman (Oct 14, 2006)

yeah it would be a tough one to pull off, you'd need a sign up list then payment before the goods were ordered and we'd probably want someone who has run a few successful group buys before to run it.

I get the feeling that the AGM cells would be a bit cheaper if they stop being clowns and just tell us the price for their cells without the ridiculous protection circuit that renders the cell useless after one mishap. Saft seem to always be at the top of the price ladder for one and I also think that was a go-away-and-leave-us-alone price they offered.


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## andrewwynn (Oct 14, 2006)

actually that was their normal every day we are the monopoly price. AFAIK, the only D-LION producer in the world. The co that made the cells for emilon it was a one-time event they don't 'make them' they 'made them'. 

The LION SAFT are powerful cells.. and though expensive they would be worth the price.. consider the prices we have toi pay when a new cell phone comes out for the OEM battery.. $40+ is not uncommon for a 600mAH cell!

-awr


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## missionaryman (Oct 14, 2006)

so I wonder what these AGM blokes come up with then.

The most economical way to get close to the capacity of a D LiIon is with 2 18650 in a double bore, you normally pay $80 - $100 for the host + $60 for the batteries (3D 3s2p = 5200mah with LG 2600mah 18650) so the safts work out the same with no silly tailcap mods or magnets and you only have to charge half the number of cells.
Problem is people like me (and I'm sure there are a few) could not take the $150 battery pack step, I could talk myself into $90 worth of battery for a 3D but no more.
If the SAFT were the only viable option even at $46 per cell are a better option than what's currently on offer for about the same cash


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## petrev (Oct 14, 2006)

Hi

Looking at the Saft data-sheet drawing is rather confusing - front view shows top pip while what would "normally" be the top view seems to show - well what ? the central 3 concentric lines are mis-marked with a dim. line to the two different central ones ? Could this be the bottom view but the "picture " shows the top with no pip just a strange tab at the edge - which looks like what is drawn as the bottom - if there is some sort of strange sectioning going on ! ? ! ?

Confused ? Cell data is Good !

Although - From the discharge graphs the AGM have the edge at greater than C/4 and hold up much better at 2C

AWR - Who exactly made the Emilion D cells ? Do Saft make them for AGM ? Or have I missed something ? Probably !

Preference - AGM Un-Protected then Saft!

Cheers Pete


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## JimmyM (Oct 14, 2006)

AGM makes their own. My preference would be for the unprotected AGMs (the K1s). The K2s have the built in protection. Hey! the least they could do is make it replacable! One thing that does get my attention is in their battery pack design guide. It says that you shouldn't use spring pressure to make electrical contact with the cells. No matter to me. I'd be building stick packs for myself with welded tabs. At the end of the packs would be a plastic fuse holder slightly shorter than one of the cells. Also in the end would be a small multi-conductor connector for charging the pack (including connections for using a balancing charger). Connections up to each cell would be made using copper "foil" under the shrink wrap. Cells would be spaced apart from one another using 1/8" thick plastic rings so that any axial load would be borne against their outer edge. Perhaps I'm over thinking this. I haven't even got the cells yet.
As far as the group buy goes... All I would need would be a nice concise list of "I'll take n Cells" from everyone to see how many I'd need to get. I would buy them and then, upon receipt of the cells, I'd announce to the group that I have them and that they can begin PayPal-ing. I believe that someone in a previous post said that the "new" SAFT cells are rated at 6800mAh. They should be good for 2C discharge. That's 13.6A folks. Maybe I'll just get a case and see how things go. 50x$46=$2300+shipping. Not obscene.
Didn't emilions cells cost $12.50 each? Even at $15/cell , I'd buy a thousand just to get the lot made. I still have yet to hear back from most of the SAFT distributors. I might also hear back from the AGM guy as well. Although he wasn't too keen on selling K2 cells. I think we can forget about the unprotected K1s.


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## JimmyM (Oct 14, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> actually that was their normal every day we are the monopoly price. AFAIK, the only D-LION producer in the world. The co that made the cells for emilon it was a one-time event they don't 'make them' they 'made them'.
> -awr


Are they no longer in the battery business? What about the CPF'r Slavin4U. He had Ds.


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## cnjl3 (Oct 15, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> In addition.. the soft-start can be configured to limit current inrush to barely over the running current which works exceptionally well for protected 18650 solutions.
> -awr


 
Is that a new feature/option for your Vtwo HD?


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## andrewwynn (Oct 15, 2006)

No.. that's in vOne also.. the dif with vTwo is it can be set up for a single specific battery and run the batteries lower for a bit of visible dimming at the end of run, and it has a fuse built in (when not running current-limit) (i.e. HDM6). 

-awr


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## lasercrazy (Oct 16, 2006)

I personally would prefer the saft cells even though they're more. I would be in for a few depending on final price.


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## JimmyM (Oct 16, 2006)

Confirmed.
I'm purchasing 500 (possibly 1000) Lithium-Ion D cells.
Details to follow.


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## missionaryman (Oct 16, 2006)

JimmyM said:


> Confirmed.
> I'm purchasing 500 (possibly 1000) Lithium-Ion D cells.
> Details to follow.


 JimmyM - you might want to run a feeler before doing that and see just how many people are going to committ to spendig that much on batteries


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## JimmyM (Oct 16, 2006)

It's not trhe SAFT cells. They're a LOT cheaper than $44 each. Still working on it though.


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## JimmyM (Oct 16, 2006)

See my feeler in Group Buys and Pass Arounds forum.


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## missionaryman (Oct 16, 2006)

good work, I replied.


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## petrev (Oct 16, 2006)

JimmyM said:


> See my feeler in Group Buys and Pass Arounds forum.


 
Here Here


Pete


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## milkyspit (Oct 24, 2006)

Uh, guys? believe me when I say that I'm all for a good quality Li-ion D-sized cell with great capacity! But we need to make sure *IT IS SAFE*, and to me that means *BEST OF BREED*: highest quality cells, highest quality manufacture, highest quality PCB, and so on. The stakes get ever higher as we move to larger and larger sized Li-ion cells... keep in mind that should something go wrong (and it will, eventually, no matter how good a modder you are nor how much care you think you took in your build, storage, etc.) we need as many failsafes in the pathway between a mistake and a tragic event possible! At *MINIMUM *that to me means as mentioned, highest quality cells... it means a really good protection circuit that's been field proven and tested over a long period of time... and it means construction that makes physical damage unlikely, and silly mistakes (like inserting the cells backwards, or shorting through incidental contact with the corner of a metal object) virtually impossible.

We've all seen what can happen when a simple 123 primary cell goes bad... with a Li-ion D-sized cell, multiply that AT *LEAST *TENFOLD and imagine the results... a light containing a D-sized Li-ion rechargeable isn't really a flashlight, it's a hand grenade with a light on it! oo:

*WE MUST BE CAREFUL, ALL OF US!!!
*


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## jar3ds (Oct 24, 2006)

lol good points scott


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## JimmyM (Oct 24, 2006)

I agree. I'm looking into cells from 2 manufacturers and getting protection options to see what's available. As near as I can tell, the "safest" cells are the Valence Technology cells. Not just electrically protected, they use different chemistry to make them nearly immune to physical damage. No one is taking this more seriously than I am. I have to store all these things. I may get a small metal shed to store them outside.


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## cy (Oct 24, 2006)

excellent warnings!

li-ion cells have no natural cut-off, but will accept a charge for long as you deliver current and/or until possible thermal run-away occurs. 

it's been my observation that most folks are not willing to invest in a high quality li-ion charger like a triton, shultz or equal. 

besides the one incident of a li-ion charger (not cell) blowing up. so far we have been very fortunate not to have any documented li-ion failure events. 

that's not true for shipping large numbers of li-ion cells. there may already be a ban on shipping large qualities of li-ion cells in aircraft due to a number of fires. I know of at least one instance of li-ion cells destroying an aircraft. look in Newbie's thread for exact links. 

as a clarification... unprotected li-ion cells still should have a PTC device to shut down current when a certain temp is exceeded. could be wrong, but seems I read somewhere it may be illegal to import li-ion cells into US without a PTC. some serious liabilitly issues for the importer. 



milkyspit said:


> Uh, guys? believe me when I say that I'm all for a good quality Li-ion D-sized cell with great capacity! But we need to make sure *IT IS SAFE*, and to me that means *BEST OF BREED*: highest quality cells, highest quality manufacture, highest quality PCB, and so on. The stakes get ever higher as we move to larger and larger sized Li-ion cells... keep in mind that should something go wrong (and it will, eventually, no matter how good a modder you are nor how much care you think you took in your build, storage, etc.) we need as many failsafes in the pathway between a mistake and a tragic event possible! At *MINIMUM *that to me means as mentioned, highest quality cells... it means a really good protection circuit that's been field proven and tested over a long period of time... and it means construction that makes physical damage unlikely, and silly mistakes (like inserting the cells backwards, or shorting through incidental contact with the corner of a metal object) virtually impossible.
> 
> We've all seen what can happen when a simple 123 primary cell goes bad... with a Li-ion D-sized cell, multiply that AT *LEAST *TENFOLD and imagine the results... a light containing a D-sized Li-ion rechargeable isn't really a flashlight, it's a hand grenade with a light on it! oo:
> 
> ...


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## Bob_G (Oct 24, 2006)

A useful caution by Scott, as always, but are these things really _that_ much more scary than the 18650s in wide use (assuming reasonable protection?) In round numbers they'd be twice the capacity is what I'm thinking.

Also I'm assuming most of these if it went through would be bound for hotwires, so the basic numbers need to be inline with accepted use. In other words, 3.6/7V nominal, at least 2C continuous discharge, and enough capacity to make it worth it. Looking at the data sheet on Saphion 18650, they fail in all respects, as do most other alternative chemistry lithium rechargeables I believe.

High Cyclic Saphion

High Power Saphion


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## andrewwynn (Oct 24, 2006)

as far as i'm aware.. out of the 100s of D LiON sold on cpf there have been zero 'incidents' related to them.. and of the 1000s of 18650s used, quite often haphazardly including my myself (two up in an unregulated light).. i.e. 2c mag with 2x18650 and nothing to shut it off for low voltage (not a good idea at all)... (but like i said.. i have a light right now with that config).. 'we all do it'.. 

The 'scary events' of 123s are from PRIMARY not secondary cells.. i'm unaware of any secondary LION 'bad event' inside a flashlight, though with the millions of lights out there i wouldn't be surprised if it happened.. out of the 100s of millions of cell phones at least 'dozens' of examples of LiON cells starting on fire (but NOT esploding.. the primary cells like to explode).. having to pick between fire and explode i'll take fire. 

That said.. yes the amt of energy stored in a D LION is tremendous but it's only similar to 2x18650 (almost exactly)... about the only serious hazzard would be managing to put a SOLID short (that wouldn't just melt away).. or driving a nail through the cell. It's very difficult to cause an incidental short on something that can output 10-20A that won't just melt away (i.e. small wire, paperclip, necklace).. it will get cherry red for a few seconds and melt right away. 

Dangerous, no, not really.. hazardous, sure.. I would like to find out of anybody has had any incidents with 18650s or the Big Ds since they were introduced.

I have more of them than anybody in the usa.. and they all work exactly as intended.. i only use them with the protection of hotdriver to shut the light down when the bats are low.. and very good thing since they like to drain at different rates.

So.. i have no fear against them.. but with more personal use D LION experience than likely anybody in north america... I can say these important words of advice:


series charging never works.. i can 90% series charge but always top off individually
always check each cell's voltage before and after use.. good to check mid-use once in a while also.. almost always ONE cell will be the 'klinker' when discharging in series.
NO WAY would i ever use one w/o shutdown protection. (which also includes using LDO driver and 1 cell as effective protection)
Good to have a 'vent' option.. i.e. a hole drilled through the mag switch body up to the thumb switch.. in case of a venting incident pressure can't build up it would just push off the rubber button.
So, there's my 22¢

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Oct 24, 2006)

Bob typed that while i was typing (could have typed it like 3x i'm supposing).. anyhow.. what about if you parallel those 18650s? Then they can do hotwire.. i've been trying to get FiveMega to make 2-bore lights for 18650 for a while.. 2S2P 18650 will run the heck out of 1111 in a 2D and also can be wired 4S1P for 1166!

-awr


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## Neg2LED (Oct 24, 2006)

2 protected D li-ion cells and a charger for my mag2dnflex!

--neg


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## Bob_G (Oct 24, 2006)

> what about if you parallel those 18650s? Then they can do hotwire.. i've been trying to get FiveMega to make 2-bore lights for 18650 for a while.. 2S2P 18650 will run the heck out of 1111 in a 2D and also can be wired 4S1P for 1166!


Even if you used the low power (high cycle/higher capacity) version of the Saphion, you'd still be looking at a 7.3V max, 2.8Ah power supply, so not much use seems to me. Pretty cool with standard Li-Ions though.

I've been wondering about all the cautions of series charging Li-Ions as it might pertain to a Triton. The Triton starts a Li-Ion charge at 100mA, mostly to trip on any that are zeroed out I think, but I don't know enough to know if this would also have a balancing effect as well. It's definitely a safeguard from Triton's point of new (as opposed to a performance issue for instance) but I can't find the documentation on it.


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## NikolaTesla (Oct 24, 2006)

They are the Cat's A$$ for SUPER HIGH POWERED LIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/980375/DSCN4158.JPG


130 watts from a [email protected] that runs 50 minites!
3000 lumen!

TAKE THAT NiMh!!! Try it. You will not get there.......:touche: 

Nothin like 14.4 volts on tap... 5 AMP Hours...

Shine a '625 or '138 powered light at the world.... they WILL be dazzled...:naughty:


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## Knight Lights (Oct 24, 2006)

oops!!


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## bwaites (Oct 24, 2006)

Anyone checking out these cells and considering them should consider this thread from RC Groups:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187

Li Ion and Li Polymer are very similar, with the major difference being the encapsulation of the cells in a metal can (Li Ion) or a Polymer pack (LiPo).

These cells can and do go "BOOM", regardless of the lack of experience with them here on CPF doing so. The RC guys are WAY ahead of us when it comes to these kinds of cells and will show you pictures of cars, houses, etc. burned down by Li cell fires.

The care and feeding of Li cells is a science and the attitude has gotten a little cavalier here about the danger of these cells. Remember that the pictures in those threads happened with cells open to air, think about what happens when that kind of energy is encapsulated inside a flashlight before it vents/explodes!

I plan on using these, but they are NOT alkaline cells, and anyone considering it REALLY needs to read more than is available on CPF before spending a lot of money on cells/chargers, etc.

I had posted previously about the hazards of these cells, albeit briefly, but another member here asked that I post a bit more, so there you have it.

*Caveat Emptor!*


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## NikolaTesla (Oct 24, 2006)

bwaites is intirely correct. These cells are not for the timid or unknowing individuals. They need to be iused ENTIRELY within the confines of their limits with regulated shutdown circuits when they drop to low in voltage and NOT EVER over charged.----------------KKKAAAABOOOM---------can result. Andrew and i have seen the first hand rEsults of this. We do things and make lights that ABSOLUELY PUSH THE ENVELOPE.


These cells are NOT protected at all and MUST be treated with the utmost of respect.


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## NewBie (Oct 26, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> as far as i'm aware.. out of the 100s of D LiON sold on cpf there have been zero 'incidents' related to them.. and of the 1000s of 18650s used, quite often haphazardly including my myself (two up in an unregulated light).. i.e. 2c mag with 2x18650 and nothing to shut it off for low voltage (not a good idea at all)... (but like i said.. i have a light right now with that config).. 'we all do it'..
> 
> The 'scary events' of 123s are from PRIMARY not secondary cells.. i'm unaware of any secondary LION 'bad event' inside a flashlight, though with the millions of lights out there i wouldn't be surprised if it happened.. out of the 100s of millions of cell phones at least 'dozens' of examples of LiON cells starting on fire (but NOT esploding.. the primary cells like to explode).. having to pick between fire and explode i'll take fire.
> 
> ...




Wow, that sure sounds like famous last words. I hope it isn't.

Anyone considering using something like this should really, really know what they are doing, and the design should be such that the end-user cannot possibly even accidentally do something wrong.

Remember, these laptop batteries, that use exactly the same technology, have had more failures than have been made public.

If something goes wrong with the a 18650, it is somewhat "compartmentalized" in each 18650. Even so, they are quite exciting when they go. Now, if something goes wrong in a D Lithium Ion Secondary, there is a lot more oh poop in each cell, to fire off like a rocket motor, or even to detonate.

Personally, I do have some high rate Lithium D cells that are used as backup batteries, and even though I work as a Senior Design Engineer (EE) working in electronics for 35 years, paid now as a professional for 28 years, and know a little bit about them, even with what I know I'm not too comfortable even having them. They are most definitely *->*NOT*<-* in my house or POV.

Consider the many recalls over the years, by major companies, with engineering teams who design with these things for a living, and they still end up having issues...

Just in shipping, these things have seriously messed up some aircraft and even destroyed the airframe of an aircraft. Remember, these are not wooden planes, but real cold hard aluminum, complete with cargo bay fire extinguishers.

I've never seen a Lithium Primary roar like Lithium secondary cells are capable of doing. There are numberous videos of these cells failing around on the web, if you feel like searching.

A simple example is this video, where just some little 18650 cells are used, it is easily by far, *not* the worst I have seen, or even very close:
http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp

After you have watched the video for those tiny cells, consider a cell with 2x the volume, and think about a small vent release hole in a flashlight (say like 1/4"), and what would happen if the cell had to try and expell it's internals thru that hole, especially if there is another cell in the way, blocking the path.

If someone starts lights that use these, hopefully they will also purchase the cells, and have insurance that can cover possible accidents. It might be a *very* good idea to have the finished assembly (like the flashlight with the cells in it), tested by UL, and many insurance companies will demand it, due to the well documented failures of Lithium Ion Secondary (Li-Ion) cells. If I was the end user, I'd demand it personally.

If the flashlight maker will not sell the lights with the cells, and include the recommended charger with the purchase, with no conditions attached, personally I'd be really leary. Most especially if they make you go buy the cells or charger yourself, as that is a way of just passing the buck.

Things to consider. If the cell wrapper gets damaged, is it even remotely possible to short the cell in some fashion (like the flashlight body), and by-pass the protection on that one cell?

At this point, for anyone even thinking about using cells like this, take a gander over here, and read the thread from beginning to end:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=106242&page=1&pp=40

The folks that pointed out the RC forums, thats a great idea. Often many Lithium Ion cells are not used in high rate applications very often, like we are talking about in these rather serious flashlights. They have plenty of videos of aircraft looking like it was hit by anti-aircraft fire, and cells going crazy, when doing nothing more than charging or discharging them. RC aircraft have high rates of discharge, that are much closer to what folks are talking about here. Very outstanding idea.

Just keep in mind, even though they have metal lined mylar packages, and they put them in nice soft padding, they still go off with a lot of excitement. Now these D cells are in sealed metal (usually steel) cans, which are crimped very well, or even laser welded shut. A pile of gunpowder in a plastic bag doesn't do much. Put this in a sealed metal container, and you have a whole different ball of wax. 


Anyhow, just please be very careful, and make sure you do things as safely as possible. This includes reading up on the subject material, so you are an informed user. Knowledge is half the battle.


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## JimmyM (Oct 27, 2006)

The issue of Lithium ion D cell safety has been done to death in these forums. D cells are only the next progression in size. Anyone looking to use lithium cells should make themselves aware of potential hazards related to cell abuse. If lithium ion cell safety is very important to you, please start a new thread.


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