# NEW from SUREFIRE 'HELLFIRE'



## duFontaine (Feb 22, 2006)

Hope you guys like this. I have heard two numbers on this one $3,000 & $5,000 but it could be alot less. There should be 3 pics.

thanks
duFontaine


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## duFontaine (Feb 22, 2006)

Here is the other pic.

thanks
duFontaine


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## duFontaine (Feb 22, 2006)

and the specs.
Thanks 
duFontaine


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## Sixpointone (Feb 22, 2006)

Wow! Thanks for sharing this with us duFontaine. Although I know I'll never be able to own one of these Lights I truly do enjoy reading about, and learning about them. SureFire really hit the ball out of the park in my opinion with their 2006 line.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Feb 22, 2006)

OpticsHQ lists this for $6499 (non-membership price)

Membership prices should be somewhat cheaper.... :naughty:


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## CLHC (Feb 22, 2006)

NICE! But waaay beyond my pay grade!


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## beezaur (Feb 22, 2006)

I don't get what makes this thing so expensive.

How much would it cost to hire an electrical engineer to design something like that?

Scott


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Feb 22, 2006)

Although I'm sure the build of the light is rock solid, I feel that, for at least a quarter of the cost, you are paying for the brand name.






beezaur said:


> I don't get what makes this thing so expensive.
> 
> How much would it cost to hire an electrical engineer to design something like that?
> 
> Scott


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## Taylorf (Feb 22, 2006)

Isnt this light only for the military. In another thread on CPF a thought i read that, or have they now released it to the public. That has got to be the coolest flashlight ever though.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Feb 22, 2006)

No Thankyou! 

It would be great, but who wants to lug around a battery. I'm sure this thing is brutally tough, however. This light is definatley for the military.


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## Prototype3a (Feb 22, 2006)

Something all civilians should understand is that there is a conversion rate between military dollars and civilian dollars. I figure it's somewhere in the range of 8$m=1$c.


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## RalphRussell (Feb 22, 2006)

Does SureFire ever do GB's here on CPF?


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## Mike Painter (Feb 22, 2006)

RalphRussell said:


> Does SureFire ever do GB's here on CPF?



Sure but it's military/government pricing.
If one costs $1,000.00 we can let you have 10 for 11,000.00.

My uncle (in the 50's) used to put things that cost 27 cents per can on sale at 3 for 89 cents and sold a lot of them at the sale price.


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 22, 2006)

I wonder how this compares in output to the BarnBurner, since this is using a lower Lumen rated bulb.


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## RalphRussell (Feb 22, 2006)

BarnBurner vs Hellfire. That *would* be an interesting shootout!


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## toolboy (Feb 22, 2006)

My goodness look at the weight, 10 pounds. I'll gladly take the Xeray 75 with a little more than half the weight, more output, way less cost, and enough money leftover to put my 2 kids through a year at college. I like the light but I wouldn't ever spend that kind of money for the performance of a 35 watt HID. For that kind of money someone would have build a fusion reactor with a diamond lense in the size of a mini mag.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Feb 22, 2006)

toolboy said:


> My goodness look at the weight, 10 pounds. I'll gladly take the Xeray 75 with a little more than half the weight, more output, way less cost, and enough money leftover to put my 2 kids through a year at college. I like the light but I wouldn't ever spend that kind of money for the performance of a 35 watt HID. For that kind of money someone would have build a fusion reactor with a diamond lense in the size of a mini mag.



I'll beat someone else to this point.

I cant wait to get my XeRay 50W, but throw both off a 3 story building, then turn both on, see which one works. Thats why this SF is $6000+.

However, I could not agree with you more!


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## Sway (Feb 23, 2006)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> I'll beat someone else to this point.
> 
> I cant wait to get my XeRay 50W, but throw both off a 3 story building, then turn both on, see which one works. Thats why this SF is $6000+.




A 3 story fall, I have beat my HID Blitz around that much you must come up with something more imaginative, how about we shoot Em' with a shotgun 

Later
Kelly


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## mdocod (Feb 23, 2006)

I bought a 2001 suzuki swift with 53,000 miles on it for $2500 last year... I could have bought 2 and still come out for less than the flashlight, explain to me how 10lbs of flashlight, regardless of what it is made out of (with the exception of diamonds and gold) could ever actually cost more than 3800lbs worth of relativally new car (swifts weigh about 1900lbs).... The sad thing is that surefire will get away with this and sell boat loads.


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## CLHC (Feb 23, 2006)

I think Mike over at OpticsHQ said these were available on special order basis. But that sure is a lot of moolah, even with the CPF discount he's already offering. . .The Megaray 175W model was purchased by a fellow member here for a "steal," he says for way less than almost half of what it costs. He paid $3000.00+!


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## mtbkndad (Feb 23, 2006)

See post #2-
Is it just me, or does this thing look like a beer stein laying on it's side?:thinking:
I guess it is for "light" beer.   

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## Litbobber (Feb 23, 2006)

If I was rich I would not want it.
To dam heavy.

Brett


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## wijawara (Feb 23, 2006)

vehicle mounted spot light thats what it is. can be place on a tank gun. thats as rugged as anything can get.

i hate to hear someone post 'my hellfire lamp just burned out' huh..... or 'i got artifact in my hellfire'. just joking. how about 'how to mod my hellfire'


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## PGP (Feb 23, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> See post #2-
> Is it just me, or does this thing look like a beer stein laying on it's side?:thinking:
> I guess it is for "light" beer.
> 
> ...



:buddies: :lolsign: :lolsign: :lolsign: :lolsign: :buddies:


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## Size15's (Feb 23, 2006)

My understanding is the weight of 10lb is for the HellFire and the mount for the .50cal
The HellFire itself (as you see it in the photos) is extremely light-weight.
(After all it's without batteries)

The weapon-mounts are serious metal work impressive by themselves!

The HellFire is tough. Tough enough to handle the life being mounted on a .50cal or minigun etc on a HMMWV and the use & abuse that means. It's designed to handle desert warfare - off-road, high-temperature, live-fire etc.

There are no corners to cut making illumination tools for these applications in these environments.

I'm guess it's hard to explain unless you use one as part of your job because it looks so simple when you handle it.

The HellFire is one of the reasons to go to the SHOT Show. Those who were not at PK's CPF Party really missed out because it is one of the only ways we get to see things like HellFires up close.

Al


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## Tabish (Feb 23, 2006)

So how much candle power is this ?


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## XeRay (Feb 23, 2006)

Tabish said:


> So how much candle power is this ?


 
Candle power is a poor way to measure performance / output of any light.


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## mdocod (Feb 23, 2006)

if you were to "say" that a "stock" "15MCP" "thor" is "15MCP" then you could probably safely say that the hellfire is somewhere in the ballpark of "30-60MCP" but that would just be a guess... I'm not "saying" anything here, because I've seen lights that "say" they are "1MCP" that are comparable in lumens to "15MCP thor"

i'm sure it will be very comparable with other 35W HID spotlights as far as brightness goes-

I wonder if it's bulletproof


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 24, 2006)

I wonder if they have had any survive those Improvised Explosive Devices in Iraq.


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## London (Mar 18, 2006)

I got to play with the Hellfire at SHOT and it was a kick in the pants! I'm sure at least 3/4 of the hefty price tag is in not only the huge mount for the M2 machine gun, but also for the fancy remote switching assembly that attaches to the yoke of the gun. it was VERY bright but heck I couldn't compare it to anything handy. strangely it was powered by not one, but two little battery packs which seemed overly complicated.


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## XeRay (Mar 18, 2006)

London said:


> I got to play with the Hellfire at SHOT and it was a kick in the pants! I'm sure at least 3/4 of the hefty price tag is in not only the huge mount for the M2 machine gun, but also for the fancy remote switching assembly that attaches to the yoke of the gun. it was VERY bright but heck I couldn't compare it to anything handy. strangely it was powered by not one, but two little battery packs which seemed overly complicated.


 
"A little birdie" told me that the US Army's "discounted" price is $4,600.00 Very interesting when the "guts" only cost Surefire under $200.00

I realize there is a lot of cost in all of that machined aluminum but.....


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## Size15's (Mar 23, 2006)

XeRay said:


> "A little birdie" told me that the US Army's "discounted" price is $4,600.00 Very interesting when the "guts" only cost Surefire under $200.00
> 
> I realize there is a lot of cost in all of that machined aluminum but.....



But you don't have a clue do you?
Have you seen the "guts" of a HellFire?!
You can't have because nobody who had would ever think that, let alone post it.

Your post has to be the most idiotic I've read in a long time. I had hoped there'd be some smilies to indicate you were joking but the really sad thing I don't think you are.

 :shakehead


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## XeRay (Mar 23, 2006)

Size15's said:


> But you don't have a clue do you?
> Have you seen the "guts" of a HellFire?!
> You can't have because nobody who had would ever think that, let alone post it.
> 
> ...


 
I know what the philips D1S bulb costs which they use and I know what a 35 watt ballast would cost even if it is somewhat customized. All for $200.00 at most for an OEM. These are the "guts" a ballast and a bulb. I *bet* they even use an "off the shelf" ballast. This I do not know for a fact, just a guess mind you.
Well, I guess this makes me just an "Idiot". 
As you most adeptly surmised, I was quite serious and NOT joking.


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## Size15's (Mar 23, 2006)

My understanding is that the bulb is the only off-the-shelf component. Everything is custom-made - it's not a 35 Watt either. It's brighter than that. More like 50 Watts.

The HellFires operate under extreme conditions as the norm. There are no short-cuts. No half-measures. No corners cut. That's why no other company has such a light. It's too difficult; too complicated; too expensive. It's taken too much effort to achieve. There's no real profit in such products other than the satisfaction of supporting those who put themselves in danger so that we can sleep safely in our beds.

The guts are so much more than a bulb and a ballast. Guts are what is needed not only to survive but more importantly to perform and prevail.

Al


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## gdict (Mar 23, 2006)

I'm not going to bother opening the 2006 catalog .pdf again, but if IIRC the bulb is 35W which woul dlead me to believe it is a regular old HID bulb as found in countless vehicles.

Given about an hour, I could make myself a light with similar performance with a total cost of about $300. Granted it won't be even 10% as trick as the hellfire, but the light coming out of the front would be similar.

Step 1: steal one of the Hella DE HID driving lights and matching ballast off my BMW GS.

Step 2: bolt it to some sort of housing. A small Pelican case would cool, but expensive.

Step 3: drop a 12 Volt gel-cell in the housing and fashion a switch setup.

Bam! You've got yourself an HID flashlight....

Cheers!

Greg


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## Kiessling (Mar 23, 2006)

And you would then mount it on a big bad machine gun of a tank, roll in the desert with it for a fight ... your life and the life of others depending on it? Good luck. Because this is what the Hellfire is all about ... so much more than just light coming out of a housing.
If you do not need such a thing ... good. But don't start bashing it because it is so much more than what you need. Other do need such a tool, and will depend on it.


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## Size15's (Mar 23, 2006)

The "trick" with the HellFire is that it's designed and intended to be mounted on .50 cal machine guns attached to vehicles driving off-road in mountains & desert battlefields.

Al


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## jtice (Mar 23, 2006)

PK always liked to take the Beast and toss it into the air, 
letting is come crashing down to the pavement, bouncing around.
Light took it like a champ each time.

I have a $360 x990 35W HID light,
and I sure as hell wouldnt want to go throwing it around.

Alot of HID bulbs will cut out due to shock,
the arc will get shocked so hard it looses conduction.
The Surefires are all shock isolated.

That said, I still think its slightly overpriced 
But thats mainly just cuz I cant afford it 

~John


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## gdict (Mar 23, 2006)

Trust me, i'm not bashing the Hellfire or Surefire. I was just supporting the notion of the "$200 guts", which is a pretty reasonable statement.

I understand why it's so expensive and I would love to have one. I'd really love to have attached to an ol' Ma Deuce!

You would be hard pressed to find someone more loyal to Surefire than me. I was one of their first dealers back when the ONLY flashlight they sold was the 6P. It took a lot of convincing my father back then to order flashlights that sold for $60 (!) to sell in our gun shop. Especially when they used $12 (!) worth of batteries. He was a quick convert though.

I still own my original 6P. It has the "Laser Products Fountain Valley, CA SURE*FIRE" markings on the tail cap as does my 9P as well. Since then, my line up has grown to; 6P,6R conversion, 2x 9P, 8X, M6, L4, U2, and an older 6V tac-light for my Benelli M1 Super 90. Not a lot of lights, but I love every one of them and every one was worth every penny paid. 

Cheers!

Greg


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## cmacclel (Mar 23, 2006)

Size15's said:


> But you don't have a clue do you?
> Have you seen the "guts" of a HellFire?!
> You can't have because nobody who had would ever think that, let alone post it.
> 
> ...



I think your attacking people and calling them names is pretty harsh for a regular member nevermind a Administrator. 

A regular off the shelf Hella 35w Ballast which is in 80% of all the Exotic cars out there outputs over 3000 bulb lumens and are designed to be out in the open under harsh conditions for the cars lifetime and costs under $200 a set on Ebay. 

I have no clue on the guts of this Hellfire but the pathetic standing up for Surefire is rediculous. You stand up for your children and family like that NOT a light. 

Mac


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## metalhed (Mar 23, 2006)

> size15s said:
> 
> There's no real profit in such products other than the satisfaction of supporting those who put themselves in danger so that we can sleep safely in our beds.



I don't want to **** anybody off or anything, but as much as folks get bashed around here for criticizing Surefire products, I must say...


:huh2:


Are you trying to tell me that Surefire doesn't make a profit on a light at priced nearly $5000 dollars (military price)? Come on now...that sounds like an unrealistic assessment of why Surefire is in business. Do you have any proof that Surefire sells its lights at a loss? Any of them?

As much as I am disturbed by those who criticize merely to re-assert their own biases (deserved or not), I am equally disturbed by what I perceive as an excessive allegiance to a single manufacturer or product. Both extremes seem to be of questionable worth to me.

Just my two cents...


...and we know how little that's worth.


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## scaredofthedark (Mar 23, 2006)

metalhed said:


> Just my two cents...
> 
> 
> ...and we know how little that's worth.




is it enough to buy that light?? if it is i'll take it  

but yea i don't think that light is worth 5K to me
no batts....not cool


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## XeRay (Mar 23, 2006)

I know very well about recoil on a 50 cal, I am also a BIG gun owner. And I do KNOW about HID bulb and ballasts, we design them for aerospace applications. This is how I make my living. Our "guts" (ballast included) have been tested with 1600 and 1800 G force vibration spikes without extinguishing the arc. This testing was done by a well known USA satellite launching rocket maker that IS one of our customers. I do know just a little about this HID technology. BTW a 35 watt HID produces 3,000 to 3,400 bulb lumens depending on exact power to the arc tube "burner" and bulb age. Surefire IS using an off the shelf Philips D1S bulb. With OEM pricing for this being what it is. I stand by my number. From the 3,000 lumens they are claiming, I am quite confident it does use a 35 watt ballast.


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## Size15's (Mar 23, 2006)

Certainly SureFire make a profit but from my perspective that's icing on the cake for them. 
My understanding is that their aim isn't to make money from the selling of lights.
It's not some get rich quick scheme - SureFire invest in long-term research & development.
I believe SureFire making HellFires, Beasts and other exotic products is like Bugatti making Veyrons.
The difference is that HellFires and Beasts are made to be used in some of the worst conditions the Police & Military have to operate in.

On a more personal note I'm friends with some of the people at SureFire who dedicate themselves to making these products over the years so I've got to see the sorts of things that motivate and drive them to do what they do.
If I thought for one second SureFire were exploiting their customers to make money (selling a product for $6000 when it cost $600 all told to make) then I'd be with you calling them to account. After all, I can afford a $600 HellFire but I can't afford a $6000 HellFire!

Al


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## Size15's (Mar 23, 2006)

XeRay,
Since it is obviously as cheap as you say it is (seeing how you obviously know what you're talking about - how to make heavy gun WeaponLights) then we can all look forward to many other companies releasing their own versions of the "HellFire" because you can't be the only person to see that something is very wrong with SureFire's pricing of the HellFire. Competition is good and other companies should be able to win over customers based on lower price with ease since they'll have no problems matching the HellFire's specifications.

We should congratulate SureFire for making money whilst the going is good and they have no competition - captive market and all that.
I guess they can reduce their prices to more sensible levels when the competitions arrives like they've had to do with all their other products.

Al


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## Sway (Mar 23, 2006)

Al,

I feel sure that SF has “good will” that is evident in the support of this forum but the cold hard fact is SF is a company and “good will” doesn’t pay the bills. They are out to make a profit for their effort, from everybody. I don’t think it would set to well with the bean counters either. 

Later
Kelly


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## tvodrd (Mar 23, 2006)

I had the pleasure and privilage to be present for pk's legendary "Beast toss" at the Cambria get-together. He walked out in the middle of the street, chucked it straight up, turned and walked back and not even bothering to watch its return to the pavement! He *had* to know it was going to stay lit!!!

I have fondled a Beast or Hellfire (or Proto?) SF reflector on the table of a "scientific coatings" vendor at a major engineering tradeshow. That sucker was machined from 4-inch aluminum bar stock, and from my limited experience in machine shops, I would estimate it spent over an hour "in the cut," and required at least two set-ups! (And that's on multi-axis CNC machines!) The sucker was obviously designed to _bolt_ to its next assembly! 4+ axis CNC time isn't cheap, even if you own the thing!

I spent some time checking out the Hellfire mounted to the "Ma Deuce" ground gun at SHOT. (I have a .50 BMG single shot I built many years ago, but had to ship the receiver out of state until I can retire elsewhere.  ) The mount was awsome! Paul had a Hellfire running for the duration of the CPF party at Shot. Talk about lighting a room with "ceiling bounce!" Freekin' awsome!

Every time I look at the reflector in my Beast, I get a :woodie!"

Disclaimer: I do not/have never worked or consulted for Surefire, and have never toured their factory. Paul did give me an invatation for a tour a couple years ago, but I haven't managed to take him up on it yet, and I live ~10 miles from them.

Larry


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## XeRay (Mar 23, 2006)

> Size15's said:
> 
> 
> > Since it is obviously as cheap as you say it is....
> ...


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## Darell (Mar 24, 2006)

cmacclel said:


> I think your attacking people and calling them names is pretty harsh for a regular member nevermind a Administrator.


I agree! Good thing Al specifically spoke to the idiocy of the post.

I'm wondering... what does anybody hope to gain from this thread?

The Hellfire is what it is, and it costs what it costs. Nobody in this thread could have more than the faintest hint of what this product costs to build - when ALL expenses of R&D, and the production volumes are taken into consideration. But we're sure happy to argue about it! Why bother? Do we argue about the costs to build a tank relative to what one sells for?

What the HellFire. :candle:


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## gdict (Mar 24, 2006)

Not to unnecessarily prolong this debate, but the selling price of a piece of military hardware often has very little to do with the actual cost and reasonable prfofit margin of said hardware, but a lot to do with the costs of documentation and submission on goverment bids. If the government buying process wasn't so damn complex, they could get top notch hardware for a lot less taxpayer dollars. Especially "cheap" items such as $6000 flashlights.

I have an aquaintance that was selling a highly specialized high pressure filter to the Navy. Her cost (woman owned business) was about $400 each to have them manufactured. She was listed as the manufacturer of record, so anyone that wanted to bid for the contract had to either buy the filters from her or go through the process of having them manufactured themselves. Since the typical volume was ten pieces or so per order, nobody else bothered to bid. She was selling the filters to the Navy for her LOW bid of only $4000 each!

And we all wonder how the government comes to buying $8000 toilet seats.....

It's nothing new. It's just business.

Cheers!

Greg

PS: maybe someday the Hellfire will come up in surplus auctions and we can all buy them for pennies on the dollar in "unserviceable" condition because of bad bulbs or ballasts that the army was too lazy to replace. Ha! Time to go to sleep and dream some more!!!


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## Coop (Mar 24, 2006)

This thread seems kind of weird to me. It looks like this issue is the same as the comments we Flashaholics get from "sane" people about our flashlights. 
They think we are completely mad that we spend more than $50 (and those are considered cheap by many of us) on a flashlight, but when they see the output they really like it, but just cant justify the costs. They see our lights as "just another piece of metal that holds a bulb, batteries and a switch", so why does it have to be so expensive? 
Same thing is going on here with the Hellfire. We've seen what it can do, we like what we see and we'd love to own one. But most of us just can't justify the costs. And to some people even a Hellfire becomes "just another piece of metal that holds a bulb, batteries and a switch" 

Now lets just all quit whining at the costs, or "attack" others because your opinions are different, and lets just all put down a few $$ to buy a Hellfire for a CPF passaround!! :laughing:


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## XeRay (Mar 24, 2006)

Darell said:


> I agree! Good thing Al specifically spoke to the idiocy of the post.


In this case the distinction is semantics. I am not impressed with the multiple admin responses to this. Much more of this treatment and I will depart leaving you all to your jaded view of Surefire.

I think, (for what little that seems to be worth here) that the way this thread has gone is rather pathetic. My post that supposedly "provoked" this downward spiral of insults was rather innocuous and not volatile at all. I only made a factual observation, But AL decided to throw some gasoline on, add a match and then proceed to yell "fire." BTW, 5 days went by with no comment to my post by anyone, but AL felt the need to make a derogatory comment. I guess this is how you encourage "open" discussion. I guess that I should learn from this that surefire is "untouchable." I guess they give you top guys a few freebees, and some drinks at a party and you are loyal for life. Very smart marketing strategy on their part to effectively silence any public detractors. Sad commentary. I suppose I will now be banned for making these comments. Believe me, I won't make this same mistake again.


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## WhiteHot (Mar 24, 2006)

Size15's said:


> Certainly SureFire make a profit but from my perspective that's icing on the cake for them.



LOL. I think its the other way around. The ingrediants for the cake that the icing is on were paid for by selling overpriced lights. You dont think that they could sell the lights just a bit cheaper and still get by?

Size15s, why the heck are you so infatuated with Surefire's? You defend them like a mom protecting her kids. I dont disagree with you about the quality... it is top notch, but jeeze...



XeRay said:


> ...



yup...


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## willie92708 (Mar 24, 2006)

The HellFire includes a complex mounting system, cord with mil spec connectors, grip switch, etc. to mount on the 50 cal machine gun and handle 300g vibration. Yes, it's WAY expensive, but not because of the electronics, but rather the mechanics. It provides 3200+ Lumens and 330,000 peak candela (real candlepower, not those bogus numbers you see all over the place). It runs on 10 to 16 volts DC at about 50 watts input once "warmed up" (more during start up). The light head weighs 2.8 lbs. I use it with a 12x 18650 cell LiIon pack for a 2 hour runtime and a total weight of 5.2 lbs.

Willie Hunt


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## Kiessling (Mar 24, 2006)

> I guess that I should learn from this that surefire is "untouchable."



If you cared to read a bit more on CPF you might notice one day that this really isn't the case ... there isn't a single company out there that gets so much flak as SureFire.
On some occasions though the attackers might be asked to back their accusations and dislike up with some facts ... or stay silent. This is such a moment ... you mentioned a number of about $300 alluding to the production cost of the Hellfire ... obviously false. Your challenge was accepted ... and that's it.

It is always hard to be the best, to stay on top .... 'cause all the others want to shoot you in the back.

bernhard


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## cmacclel (Mar 24, 2006)

XeRay said:


> > My guess, the whole thing costs about $1,000.00 per unit to make.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bwaites (Mar 24, 2006)

I look at this thread and see the original A2 threads.

"It's too expensive, Surfire overcharges, etc." It's all the same.

I wish that someone would come out with a Surefire quality light at the price that all these people seem to think that they can be made!! 

I'd be first in line!!

As for the market and the niche, I'd think that if you could make these available for even $2000 you would sell everyone you could build!!

If the parts and machining cost even a $1000, that would be a 100% markup.

So far, though, no one has been able to build an A2 and market it for less than what Surefire charges, and I would suspect that the same will be true of the Hellfire.

As far as criticizing Surefire, anyone who has been around CPF for any significant amount of time has seen it done here, but like any criticism, it should be grounded in fact! I suspect that even though the lamp may be OTS, I can't imagine an OTS ballast handling living on a 50 cal!

AND, show me another HID which will take the abuse the Beast has been witnessed to take and that is available for sale, even in limited quantities!!

I would love these to be available!!

Bill


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## XeRay (Mar 24, 2006)

Kiessling said:


> If you cared to read a bit more on CPF you might notice one day that this really isn't the case ... there isn't a single company out there that gets so much flak as SureFire.
> On some occasions though the attackers might be asked to back their accusations and dislike up with some facts ... or stay silent. This is such a moment ... you mentioned a number of about $300 alluding to the production cost of the Hellfire ... obviously false. Your challenge was accepted ... and that's it.
> 
> It is always hard to be the best, to stay on top .... 'cause all the others want to shoot you in the back.bernhard


 
*More unfounded personal attacks, please reread my posts on this thread!! I believe I did back up everything I said. As someone else posted above, I never said $300.00, I said $1,000.00*


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## XeRay (Mar 24, 2006)

bwaites said:


> As far as criticizing Surefire, anyone who has been around CPF for any significant amount of time has seen it done here, but like any criticism, it should be grounded in fact! I suspect that even though the lamp may be OTS, I can't imagine an OTS ballast handling living on a 50 cal!


 
Any *well made* off the shelf ballast which is "potted" can handle this constant 50 cal. recoil pounding environment, *Fact*. The HID bulb they use is also an Off the Shelf D1S, 35 watt Philips bulb, Nothing special there.


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## Kiessling (Mar 24, 2006)

Mac ... I was wrong ... XeRay mentioned this:



XeRay said:


> Very interesting when the "guts" only cost Surefire under $200.00
> 
> I realize there is a lot of cost in all of that machined aluminum but.....




XeRay ... I did not make any personal attack. Care to show me?
And upon re-reading your posts I corrected my posted number (your claim) to $200.

And let's talk about backing things up .. since when do your get 3000 lumens out the front end from 3000-3400 bulb lumens (your numbers on the SF stock bulb driven by a supposedly stock ballast)? Something doesn't add up here, and it isn't the HellFire ...

From your posts it is evident that you are trying to shine a very bad light on SF by using superficial arguments even though you know very well what is involved in making a light like the HellFire. At least you should know very well following your posts I just re-read. This is bad style, especially considering you are another manufacturer.

bernhard


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## bwaites (Mar 24, 2006)

"Any well made off the shelf ballast which is "potted" can handle this constant 50 cal. recoil pounding environment, Fact. The HID bulb they use is also an Off the Shelf D1S, 35 watt Philips bulb, Nothing special there."

They can? I'm impressed!! I didn't realize that they were that robust! I guess maybe I need to move away from hotwires and into the HID realm. 

I wonder, then, why no one else has created this kind of a light at the costs quoted?

Once again, having watched every single commercially available Beast sell almost immediately, I would think that you could sell every one you could make at $2000, allowing a 100% markup on cost.

But, I heard all these arguments about the A2 years ago, too, and no one has managed to come to market with anything close yet, so maybe the demand isn't there.

Bill


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## cmacclel (Mar 24, 2006)

DO US ALL A FAVOR and close this thread.

It seems everyone here turns into different people when someone even remotely EVEN QUESTIONS surfire. This IS NOT THE FORUM I LOOK AT EVERYDAY FOR HOURS ON END.

XeRay did not BADMOUTH or talk TRASH about surefire get OVER IT. I'm done with this thread.

If I just joined this forum today with ZERO KNOWLEDGE of ANYTHING I would bet my LIFE that the MODERATORS and ADMINISTRATORS had something going on with SURFIRE.


Mac


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## whooki (Mar 24, 2006)

I have always been a huge fan and lurker on these forums. I would like to think an administrator would have a more professional attitude then Size15's has shown with the following post he made. I know this may seem like an odd first post but it makes me angry to see such a great source of information and knowledge devolve into this. I have no doubt that the personal attacks Size 15 has made against XeRay would not be allowed if he were not an admin.






> But you don't have a clue do you?
> Have you seen the "guts" of a HellFire?!
> You can't have because nobody who had would ever think that, let alone post it.
> 
> Your post has to be the most idiotic I've read in a long time. I had hoped there'd be some smilies to indicate you were joking but the really sad thing I don't think you are.


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## XeRay (Mar 24, 2006)

Kiessling said:


> Mac ... I was wrong ... XeRay mentioned this:
> 
> XeRay ... I did not make any personal attack. Care to show me?
> And upon re-reading your posts I corrected my posted number (your claim) to $200.
> ...


 
I said $200.00 cost for the Guts and defined that as Bulb and Ballast. I also said $1,000.00 for the whole unit including Gun mount, trigger switch etc.

You did accuse me of Lying (not caring a bout truth) or ethics, and not offering "facts." That is slander in my dictionary, a personal attack.

I am only accusing them of being greedy when marketing to OUR US military, which I admit is the norm. I don't care what they charge YOUR military. I made these statements as an outraged taxpayer only! The ONLY reason I am not going to make a competitive product similar to theirs is the market is too small for all the trouble. I choose my market niches very carefully and choose to pass on this one as it stands currently. This Surefire pricing structure also greatly limits the number of these OUR military can "afford" even if they need twice as many. I believe at these pricing levels a 100% profit margin is plenty, so $2000 or even maybe $3000 might be reasonable but $4,600.00 from my military contacts in my mind is a travesty.


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## wasBlinded (Mar 24, 2006)

Everyone here is expressing their opinion sans profanity, and no one is being muzzled. Whats the problem? Get over it and move on.

BTW, I've exactly duplicated the build and service spec of the Hellfire, and have large contracts with multiple governments to sell it for $4000.00

I'll invite you all aboard my new mega-yacht soon, so just hold your breath....


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## XeRay (Mar 24, 2006)

wasBlinded said:


> I'll invite you all aboard my new mega-yacht soon, so just hold your breath....


 
Hey, I can sell you some through the hull under water lights for it, let me know when you take delivery LOL.


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## Lando (Mar 24, 2006)

I am not at all surprised by the over the top reactions of some of the admins here when it involves any kind of critism of Surefire products, in fact I have come to regard them as fairly typical. As far as I can see there was no reason for "size 15" to react in such an aggressive/dismissive way on a post by someone that has shown to be knowledgeable and held in high regard by most people in this forum including me. It has been painful to watch admins falling over themselves trying to defend "size 15" heavy handed responce to an ordinary remark.


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## XeRay (Mar 24, 2006)

Lando said:


> It has been painful to watch admins falling over themselves trying to defend "size 15" heavy handed responce to an ordinary remark.


 
I will appologize in advance but I could not help myself. I wonder if size15 refers to hat size????? A little levity was in order I think.


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## cmacclel (Mar 24, 2006)

wasBlinded said:


> Everyone here is expressing their opinion sans profanity, and no one is being muzzled. Whats the problem? Get over it and move on.
> :



Yes it's a great place when Forum administrators Bash the members for no apparent reason. Part of being a moderator / administrator on every other forum I have been is choosing someone that has a cool temperment that won't react to members as seen here.

Mac


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## bwaites (Mar 24, 2006)

I think that there have been a few "over the top" remarks on both sides, but I still don't see anyone else offering anything remotely close.

I'm sorry, but the proof is in the making, if it can be done and the profit margin is acceptable at $2000, then why isn't it being done?

And I don't buy "the market is too small for all the trouble" argument. If it is too small for all the trouble, then doesn't what Surefire is selling them for make even more sense?

XeRay, I don't like to see our government spend money unnecessarily either, but if you are as incensed as you say you are, wouldn't it make more sense to actually build the light and sell it at the profit level of $2000? Then the military could get about 2 1/2 lights for the price of 1 and more of our military could have the advantage!

My dad taught me that if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. In this case, I would love to see some TRULY competitive products. 

I've never felt Surefires are perfect, I think the M6 should have a better battery solution than it does, for instance, but for what they are, they are usually the best possible solution to the problem. I am amazed that no one has REALLY tried to compete with them.

I think they ARE in business to make money, but that they also try to advance the art where possible. I respect the fact that they don't over hype their numbers while marketing. Name another company that doesn't!

Bill


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## XeRay (Mar 24, 2006)

bwaites said:


> And I don't buy "the market is too small for all the trouble" argument. If it is too small for all the trouble, then doesn't what Surefire is selling them for make even more sense?
> 
> XeRay, I don't like to see our government spend money unnecessarily either, but if you are as incensed as you say you are, wouldn't it make more sense to actually build the light and sell it at the profit level of $2000? Then the military could get about 2 1/2 lights for the price of 1 and more of our military could have the advantage! Bill


 
I am still thinking. We can only do so many projects at one time, "priorities." Never make a business decision for emotional reasons. Only make them because they make sense.


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## bwaites (Mar 24, 2006)

"I am still thinking. We can only do so many projects at one time, "priorities." Never make a business decision for emotional reasons. Only make them because they make sense."

Understood. I'll volunteer to do some of the field testing!!

Bill


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## RalphRussell (Mar 24, 2006)

This is not going to be settled here in a forum. It needs to be decided on the battlefield, literally. There is no doubt that SF makes a great tank light. Now, if XeRay can make a similar light that the military finds acceptable through rigorous testing, and will cost taxpayers less than half the price of a Hellfire, then I'm all for it.

Just for the sake of the forum, a shootout between the Hellfire and XeRay's lights would be extremely interesting. This would be great for those of us that don't have a tank parked in our driveway. However, for the military, the tank test is essential.

Competition is good! If such a competition happens AND XeRay wins the military contract, Surefire would have to lower their price. Everyone would win!


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## NickelPlate (Mar 24, 2006)

beezaur said:


> I don't get what makes this thing so expensive.
> 
> How much would it cost to hire an electrical engineer to design something like that?
> 
> Scott




My thoughts exactly. I'm an EE in the product design business (not flashlights but electronic controls), and I have a hard time believing there is so much engineering and development in that to make it worth that much, but I could be wrong. 

I don't think they're targeting the average consumer though, and military and industrial people who need something like that will probably shell out the bucks for it and not give it a second thought. I would expect the price to come down once Surefire recovers most of their development costs.

Dave


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## bwaites (Mar 24, 2006)

I don't think the DESIGN part is the hard part, but have you ever tried to build something that will take SERIOUS abuse?

It's not just the lamp/ballast, it's the mounts, the whole shebang.

Choosing the right alloys, the right thickness, the right hardening, the right size mounting bracket and bolts, the whole process and then testing, testing again, testing again, etc.

I think it probably takes more than anyone knows that hasn't designed something for this kind of a use.

Bill


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## NickelPlate (Mar 24, 2006)

bwaites said:


> I think it probably takes more than anyone knows that hasn't designed something for this kind of a use.



That could be true, and in Surefire's defense there are other costs involved also. Some of which you alluded to; certification (UL, CE) testing, FEMA, MTBF. All of that stuff costs alot of money. I don't deny that Surefire spent a bundle developing this flashlight but it just seems like an awful lot to pay. 

I can buy one of these:

www.home.agilent.com/USeng/nav/-536898394.536907652/pd.html

which is infinitely more complex and sophisticated than any flashlight and requires years and years of development, testing and engineering for less than the cost of a Hellfire, then again I can't mount it on a tank or take it into a warzone and expect it to survive long. 

I'm not bashing here, just making an observation and comparison, everyone here is just giving their opinion. No one knows what Surefire spent and what their markup is and/or how long it will take for them to recover their cost.

Regards,

Dave


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## bwaites (Mar 24, 2006)

Just got it to work for me, but you make a good point, nonetheless.

The market for 50 cal lighting is somewhat limited would be my guess, and knowing that you will only sell "X" you have to make sure you make your development back.

I have no idea how many of these oscilloscopes you can sell, but my guess is that there are more uses for it than the single one figured for the Hellfire.

Bill


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## bwaites (Mar 24, 2006)

I should make one other point.

Most specialty items sold to the government, if then offered to the public, CANNOT be sold at a lower cost than the government price, at least for some specified time frame.

I suspect that keeps the price high for items like the Beast, etc.

Bill


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## 270winchester (Mar 24, 2006)

willie92708 said:


> The HellFire includes a complex mounting system, cord with mil spec connectors, grip switch, etc. to mount on the 50 cal machine gun and handle 300g vibration. Yes, it's WAY expensive, but not because of the electronics, but rather the mechanics. It provides 3200+ Lumens and 330,000 peak candela (real candlepower, not those bogus numbers you see all over the place). It runs on 10 to 16 volts DC at about 50 watts input once "warmed up" (more during start up). The light head weighs 2.8 lbs. I use it with a 12x 18650 cell LiIon pack for a 2 hour runtime and a total weight of 5.2 lbs.
> 
> Willie Hunt



DId everyone else just miss Willie's post?

I didn't expect to see a cheap light for a 50Cal Machingun. After all, the critics will be shocked to learn how much an M1 Abraham costs...it's just a piece of metal, right?


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## tvodrd (Mar 24, 2006)

Welcome to CPF :bow: Mr. Hunt!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope to meet you some day- we're local. (And when we do, if you could "loose" one of those reflectors....  Might see some "throw" from a Lux V.  )

Larry


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## greenLED (Mar 24, 2006)

270winchester said:


> DId everyone else just miss Willie's post?


Wow, "the man" himself! Welcome to CPF, willie92708! I look forward to more of your posts on the electronics forum (and elsewhere on CPF, of course).


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## nethiker (Mar 24, 2006)

Yep, I completely missed willie92708's post. I was too busy following the Surefire overcharging argument to bother with first hand details regarding the topic of this thread. 

Welcome Willie, and thanks for the post.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Mar 24, 2006)

:touche:  

:huh2: 
Is this CPF?
 

This thread=   

We All need a  ::grouphug: 

Then we will be: ​


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## bwaites (Mar 24, 2006)

Sometimes people get hot, especially when they over/understimate what someone is saying.

It appears that is what happened here. As long as everyone takes a step back and reanalyzes what was REALLY said, not what they intrepreted it to mean, things will get back on track. 

I mean, almost any light that is introduced on CPF could be considered overpriced, I saw a McLux PD sell for $750 last night in a matter of minutes. Give me a break, what is there, $40 worth of material there, even at retail prices?

But the truth is, a specialty light, like the PD, and even more, like the Hellfire, commands a premium price. I'll bet there are more PD's in existence than there are Hellfires!! (And yes I realize it was a special Ti version and that it was beautifully polished, and yes, I would have bought it if I had the funds!)

And yes, I saw Willies post, but chose not to drag him into the mud that was flying at the time.

What he said, part of which I was reiterating above, is that making something for this environment is MUCH tougher than most of us can imagine.

Having had a brother-in-law running a big gun on troop patrols in Baghdad, and listening to his descriptions of the environment, has made me a strong believer in OVER ENGINEERING what has already been over engineered. 

As he puts it, "if it absolutely can't be broken, it will, FOR SURE, be broken by a soldier. IF a soldier can't break it, then it will, FOR SURE, be broken by a mechanic. IF a mechanic doesn't break it, then it will, FOR SURE, break the next time it goes out!"

I would love these lights to be less costly, but until they are, I'm glad someone is making them for our guys!!

Thank you Surefire. 

If it leads to less costly, (note I did not say cheaper!), but just as high quality lights:

Thank You XeRay for pointing out that there may be a way to do it for less money, but just as effectively.

I'm all for competition, it improves the breed!!!

Bill


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## Lightraven (Mar 24, 2006)

Heh-heh, good point about soldiers.

In training, we managed to break our M1 Abrams tank on average, once a day.

With three training missions per day, we missed one pretty much every day if I remember. Usually it was about getting stuck or throwing the track, but we didn't have a Hellfire to break back then.

Maybe war gear is treated better than training gear, but it still needs to be soldier-proof.


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## NickelPlate (Mar 24, 2006)

bwaites said:


> The market for 50 cal lighting is somewhat limited would be my guess, and knowing that you will only sell "X" you have to make sure you make your development back.



Good point about the niche (vertical) market. The same reason why a college textbook on basic algebra costs $150. That, and the fact that most Universities are exceedingly greedy, I'm still paying off school loans .

Oh and look, 100th post. I just made flashaholic!!! :rock:


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## MadMag (Mar 25, 2006)

Well I opened this to read about HID. I guess I did not know what I was getting into. So, I will add something that has been on my mind for a while. I don't post that much but actually I read a lot and am on other forums. I love the tech. info I get from CPF...just great.

But, I have never seen any other forum that the Admin's actually bash members. Usually they act mature and make statements like, "I disagree", or "you comments are out of line", or give some warning or even banning. But here some of the Admin's just jump right in a lower themselves to others levels. It does not matter if good or bad things were said about Surefire....only how you react. IMHO, Size 15 needs to re-think his comments before posting.


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## Kiessling (Mar 25, 2006)

Some interesting opinions and styles in this thread. All have been noted, everyone had their say, so I suggest that we now put all our efforts towards bringing that thread back on track ... instead of discussing stuff that should have been discussed in private from the beginning.

bernhard


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## MadMag (Mar 25, 2006)

I agree with being back on track. 

Now for the Tech. issues that are the real intrest.

I am a retired engineer and did work some (limited) on military contracts. Also, like many I served in the Army. I know that sometimes it is true the Army pays $1000 for a toilet set, but for the most part the cost happens because the military specs are so strict. So, even if you have so many lumens out the front it is more important to meet the tough survival specs. I know from first hand that what appears to be an innocent circuit board or other componet, it cost many times over normal because of shock and weather proofing. I don't know the details of the Hellfire, but compared to some gear the military pays for the price does not seem to much out of line.


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## AlexGT (Mar 25, 2006)

What he said!:goodjob: 

Let's all get a beer sit back, relax and talk about our hobby

:buddies: :drunk: :grouphug:


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## Lightraven (Mar 25, 2006)

Besides being soldier proof, a lot of things on a modern tank have to be able to survive a lot of other things, of course.

For example, the paint on military vehicles needs to be resistant to chemical warfare contaminants and nuclear fallout. For all I know, it is designed to absorb ranging lasers, too.

All of the electronics of a tank must be hardened against electromagnetic pulse of a nuclear blast. How many spotlights are designed for that?

I got the feeling that there were a lot of scientists and engineers working around the world to design the most technologically advanced tank in the world.

As for costs, well I think we can imagine why we don't want China manufacturing our military hardware, no offense to the Chinese workers. I don't know how these military contracts work, but it is probably a little more complex than people may realize.


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## MadMag (Mar 25, 2006)

I agree with Lightraven, Just to add one final point for me. The cost is not just the materials and labor to manufacture. When you get ready to compete for a contract you spend a lot of R&D money. This money is not recovered if you do not get the contract....just cost of doing business. 

So, even though it may not be listed as a cost item for the light I think the truth is that you have to build in some cost to recovery (after so many units) your engineering costs. 

Sometimes we applied for a separate recovery of engineering costs, but on some quotes this is not allowed.


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## Germ (Mar 26, 2006)

Seems overpriced to me too, but there is a lot I don't know about the light or the circumstances around it. Looks like it could take a glancing blow from a 7.62x39mm rifle round.

Does anyone know what light this replaced for the military or if there was anything like it before? I wonder too if such a light is a bullet magnet like handgun mounted lights are supposed to be. Seems you might like a mount that held the HellFire a couple of feet away from the centerline of the machine gun, and you.

Is there a comparable output light that can be bought or made for $300 US or lower? I need (?) something to fill my empty spotlight niche.


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## CM (Mar 26, 2006)

I'd love to get one of these. The only problem is -- where's the keychain attachment??


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## GhostReaction (Mar 27, 2006)

CM said:


> I'd love to get one of these. The only problem is -- where's the keychain attachment??


A keychain attachment tested, proven and made by surefire might add another US$1000 to your SF Hellfire cost. Batteries sold separately :nana:


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 27, 2006)

XeRay said:


> A rather naive statement about business and profit motive. So what is it they do to make money?


 
That's easy. They raised the 123a unit price to $1.75 each. :buddies: 

 :lolsign:


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## Darell (Mar 29, 2006)

MadMag said:


> I agree with Lightraven, Just to add one final point for me. The cost is not just the materials and labor to manufacture. When you get ready to compete for a contract you spend a lot of R&D money. This money is not recovered if you do not get the contract....just cost of doing business.
> 
> So, even through it may not be listed as a cost item for the light I think the truth is that you have to build in some cost to recovery (after so many units) your engineering costs.


Great point! I'm familiar with the pharmaceutical trade where this aspect is quite pronounced. It can take hundreds of million$ to get a drug to the level of testing. And when only one in 30 potential drugs becomes a commercial product, that one has to pay for all the other 29 that failed. When one injection costs $1000, it does not mean that the 1cc of product in the syringe has a material cost of more than $1. The cost of R&D/failure/whateveryouwantotcallit is rarely considered. And it is relevant here. A company cannot just soak up those real expenses and sell each marketable item for just a few pennies above what the material costs are.

I'm also doing some suspension work on my vehicles. I buy a bar of steel that couldn't cost the maker more than $20 - and it just has four bends and some eyes welded to the end of it. I pay $400 for the finished product, and I'm not even a military contract! But I pay the money because somebody else took all the risk, purchased all the inventory, leases all the machines to make the precision bends and welds, spent all the money testing it, and assures me that it'll work properly without me having to mess with it.

I used to work in the software industry. We made CD duplicates of our software for 2c/copy. But we sold that software for $750 a copy. Not only becase 'we could' but because of how much *non product* we spent money on.

Does any of this seem relevant?


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## Aristo (Apr 11, 2006)

I must have one


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## shocknawe (Apr 23, 2006)

Hellfire has withstood IED in Iraq. It saves lives (US / Iraqi)...questions?


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## D-Dog (Aug 28, 2007)

Well said  The price may be higher than it needs to be, but then again, if it is saving peoples lives then it deserves the price.


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## hkbladelawhk (Aug 28, 2007)

http://www.opticsplanet.net/surefire-hellfighter-tactical-spotlight.html

Ouch...


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## BVH (Aug 31, 2007)

Interesting. I've not heard of an Incandescent HID before.... From the site: "High-Output Incandescence Flashlight uses a xenon-filled high-intensity discharge (HID) arc lamp"

free shipping to boot!


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## mossyoak (Aug 31, 2007)

BVH said:


> Interesting. I've not heard of an Incandescent HID before.... From the site: "High-Output Incandescence Flashlight uses a xenon-filled high-intensity discharge (HID) arc lamp"
> 
> free shipping to boot!



I thought that all HID lamps were incandescent.


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## DaFABRICATA (Aug 31, 2007)

I ran into a friend who is on leave for a few weeks, he knows I'm a flashlight crackhead and informed me that they use the Hellfire on their 50cal. 
He said it is Bad-***!


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