# Why do Surefires cost so much?



## Ilikeshinythings (Nov 12, 2006)

I tried to do a search and came up with nothing. But basically what I want to know is: WHY ARE SUREFIRES SO EXPENSIVE?!

I understand why flashlights like the Lionheart, and many others carry a hefty pricetag, because they are very limited in production, and supply is lower than demand. 

But Surefire flashlights are only rare because nobody can afford them! From my economics class, something about that just shouts insanity to me. 

I think they make really good looking lights, and from the beamshots I have seen, they are beautiful at producing light....But so are hundreds of other lights that are 1/6th the price.

Please, genious's, elaborate!


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## BBL (Nov 12, 2006)

reasons:
- made in usa: high labor costs
- high markup: the retailers _must_ stay above certain prices by contract
- unefficient construction, unnecesary cnc-operations
- expensive r&d
- high quality and construction
- relatively low number production runs
- they are surefire
- the customers pay those prices (especially the us gvt.)

i think thats it


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## ABTOMAT (Nov 12, 2006)

As far as I'm concerned:

Low production volume
Complicated (sometimes needlessly) designs
Made in California
High overhead from all the crazy stuff they continuously try
Name recognition

Add all that together and you have an expensive flashlight. I'm sure a lot of their pricing is set simply because people will pay it. Some lights like the 6P, E1/E2, etc have so little machining they'd probably cost $15 each, with no drop in quality, if they were made by Mag.


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## ABTOMAT (Nov 12, 2006)

Wow, BBL beat me to it. I swear I didn't see his post.


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## NAW (Nov 12, 2006)

I personally feel some of there products are overly priced.

I suppose the only reason why there products are priced so high is because they have good warranty. And when there products fail like there U2 they need to give out a great deal of parts.

Of course people say Surefire products are tough and are meant for law enforcement, and what not. But I see other companies come out there with reliable and tougher products at fraction of the price.


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## lightUup (Nov 12, 2006)

Surefires are expensive because they're designed for rich people. Unfortunetly, I'm not rich.


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## Ilikeshinythings (Nov 12, 2006)

I understand all that, and yeah...overhead must be expensive from all the trial and error. CA is probably not the cheapest place to manufacture things...especially small things like Flashlights. But how the heck did they develope a customer base with those kind of prices??? Somebody had to buy the surefire and give it one hell of a review before other's would follow...but I wonder if that person gave it such a wonderful review BECAUSE they paid so much for it...when deep down inside they knew they could have bought something much cheaper and still have had performance similar in quality.


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## Manzerick (Nov 12, 2006)

ther is something to be said about a company that stands behind their products like SF does...

But...at what cost? 




Either way, I'm still gonna buy!


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## Kiessling (Nov 12, 2006)

Which light would you take with you when you will encounter dangerous and possibly lethal situations?
I'd take a Surefire.
And there are reasons for my choice ... reasons which make this light very expensive.
You get what you pay for. It is that easy.
bernie


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## RAF_Groundcrew (Nov 12, 2006)

Well, they are good at what they do, and yes, people are willing to pay the asking price. I must say that there is a very noticeable performance difference in SF lights over a similarly sized 'average' light that an everyday civilian would think more than adequate.

In my job as an aircraft engineer, the difference between my 8NX and the lights that are being used by other engineers (whether Air Force provided, or personal mini-mag type) is very obvious, more light, more of the time, and it works every time because I take care of it.

My gripe is the cost of good quality lithium cells, especially as I have a SF M6.

There are many examples of 'high end' products where the owners are willing to pay more than they need to and never fully utilise the performance capability of the item in question ($20,000 Bang & Olufsen stereos, $1m+ Ferraris, etc).


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## NAW (Nov 12, 2006)

I think they set it a at a high price for two reasons. 

1) Get more money

2) When most people see expensive products that are higher priced than others they automatically assume it MUST be superior. To tell you the truth when I bought my U2 I said to myself with a price like that this must be the best of the best. Oh but was I wrong! I had to go through 6 tailcaps that failed on me. 

3) Like I said earlier in my other post. Surefire has a great warranty. They sent me tailcaps every time mines failed. 

But there is no reason why the tailcap should have been failing me in the first place. :thumbsdow


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## Ilikeshinythings (Nov 12, 2006)

Kiessling said:


> Which light would you take with you when you will encounter dangerous and possibly lethal situations?
> I'd take a Surefire.
> And there are reasons for my choice ... reasons which make this light very expensive.
> You get what you pay for. It is that easy.
> bernie



I get what you're saying. But what are these reasons? If I was in a potentially lethal situation face to face I would take a $20.00 4D maglite over a $200 small handheld surefire. Either way you're gonna blind the hell out of your oponent but with the mag you're gonna crack some skulls. 

Streamlight from what I hear has a really good customer service base as well...and they are half the price of the Surefires. I think Streamlight is even a tad expensive for what you get...but they are more fairly priced.

I am sure they're made with great precision quality, but a $1 million dollar Ferrari would probably be made of parts that cost A LOT, IE: Carbon Fiber and composite materials not found on other cars. Type III anodization comes on a lot of cheap lights now aday's, like the XO/T inova series' (all under $100).


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## ANW (Nov 12, 2006)

I never liked the price tag of their lights, but I love their lights and surprised I own so many, with more on the wishlist as soon as I can afford them (L1,L2, another A2 w/ wht leds(me) and another with yg led's for my cousin who flies choppers in the army). Their warrenty is suppost to be really good, I have yet to use it. My A2 has been with me in my travels from Canada to Key west and still going strong in performance. I have and use other brands of lights, but for some reason I feel more comfortable using my surefire's than I do other brands that I own.


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## The Porcupine (Nov 12, 2006)

From the look of the siglines here, I wouldn't say that "nobody can afford" Surefires! 
I am not rich by any means, but I don't think Surefires are insanely expensive. Sure, they will cost you a lot more than a chinese knock off, but that's the nature of things.
As others have already stated, SF's are made in the US, carry a life warranty and comes with excellent customer service.


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## Flashdark (Nov 12, 2006)

*Because they're worth it.*

Flashdark sends. (Flashdark spends)


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## Monocrom (Nov 12, 2006)

Part of it has to do with Surefire's business practices. Back around 2003, Surefire decided to no longer supply their products to distributors who didn't own brick & mortar stores. Translation: No more deals on discounted Surefires. 

Store owners have to pay rent. They generally charge more. For example: $70 for a $30 G2. The cheapest place to get a Surefire became Surefire's own website. Obviously, with no significant discounts. 

That policy caused the price of every Surefire to increase, across the board..... with zero improvements introduced to the lights. :thumbsdow


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## glockboy (Nov 12, 2006)

Ilikeshinythings said:


> I get what you're saying. But what are these reasons? If I was in a potentially lethal situation face to face I would take a $20.00 4D maglite over a $200 small handheld surefire. Either way you're gonna blind the hell out of your oponent but with the mag you're gonna crack some skulls.


You carry a Mag 4D everywhere you go? :huh2:


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## Chronos (Nov 12, 2006)

Because they are worth it, and there are people who buy enough of them (including the Federal government) that they can stay in business.

Next Spring I plan on taking a multi-day hike and climb. I'll take a couple of Surefires for me as their name is so appropo.


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## cutlerylover (Nov 12, 2006)

Ilikeshinythings said:


> I get what you're saying. But what are these reasons? If I was in a potentially lethal situation face to face I would take a $20.00 4D maglite over a $200 small handheld surefire. Either way you're gonna blind the hell out of your oponent but with the mag you're gonna crack some skulls.


 
I carry a flashlight for light...I ahve a nice array of knives for defense although I carry them and use them as tools if I felt threatened they turn into weapons...But I have been able to handle a situation like that everytime without violence, knock on wood...

Back to the original question about surefires being expensive...Well there are alot of things in this world that are expensive, I happened to have expensive tastes but no money, bad combo, lol...I love surefire like most people here I think, and I know their stuff is pricey and I will never be able to afford certain lights bu tthat ok with me since there are hundreds of things I like but can't afford...Think about cars, is a rolls royce phantom really worth $250,000 + or are you buying the name along with the car? Either way I think that if the US army likes them and continues to buy them and use them than surefire will never go out of buisness or need to lower their prices...

Sorry if I was babbling a bit...I just let the thoughts fly...


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## cy (Nov 12, 2006)

Surefires are a good value and along with ARC's have the highest resale values for production lights. 

purchase mint used surefire's and basically use them virtually free, other than funds that's tied up. besides a new U2 and 6P, all other Surefire's I've purchased have been used. 

personally I prefer the scratched up surefires offered on b/s/t. costs is lower and you don't have to baby lights like mint ones. one tiny nick and value has gone down by say... $30-$50 depending upon the light. 

I've purchased and sold quite a number of Surefires in the last few years. Net cost to own has been zero $$, if you don't count the $$ tied up and recouped when sold. 



Ilikeshinythings said:


> I tried to do a search and came up with nothing. But basically what I want to know is: WHY ARE SUREFIRES SO EXPENSIVE?!
> 
> I understand why flashlights like the Lionheart, and many others carry a hefty pricetag, because they are very limited in production, and supply is lower than demand.
> 
> ...


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## light_emitting_dude (Nov 12, 2006)

Remember the old saying "you get what you pay for" There is some truth to that even in the flashlight world.


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## Colorado Fatboy (Nov 12, 2006)

Ilikeshinythings said:


> I get what you're saying. But what are these reasons? If I was in a potentially lethal situation face to face I would take a $20.00 4D maglite over a $200 small handheld surefire. Either way you're gonna blind the hell out of your oponent but with the mag you're gonna crack some skulls.



Yeah, but try holding a 4D mag in one hand and a handgun in the other!

Alot of handgun tactic training involves using a flashlight with a gun and I can't think of a better choice than a Surefire.

On the gun and LEO forums Surefire is allways the name that comes up. I think they really got their name established by catering to the LEO, and Government people.


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## elgarak (Nov 12, 2006)

I see three main reasons for the SF price, which for me also make every dollar worth I spent on SFs:

1) SF is an innovator. They come up with new designs all the time. R&D has to be paid, and I pay it willingly. It means also that sometimes there are problems with newer designs and initial higher failure rates, which are remedied by #2.

2) Their warranty. Higher price pays for NO paying if the thing breaks, whenever that may be.

3) Their machining and engineering is top-notch. I believe that this is something that a lot of people complaining about the price are not able to recognize, mostly because they were never involved in such a process.


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## ABTOMAT (Nov 12, 2006)

I'd amend that to "I can't think of a better choice than _some_ Surefires." I can just picture someone coming face-to-face with a bad guy in the dark somewhere, and the switch on his U2 or E2E breaking when he turns his light on.

One reason for at least part of the costs has to be the incredibly diverse R&D projects that never go anywhere. Just look at some SF catalogs or photos from the design department--you'll see zillions of lights, mostly nearly completed and totally custom machined/built. Most of these never get sold to either the .Gov or consumers.


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## iamerror (Nov 12, 2006)

They do have some unique offerings, such as the A2 (regulated incandescent). Like others have said... they have R&D and they have a good warranty program. 

However, I would guess a significant part of the pricing is simply brand name and the fact that people will pay the high prices. A lot of their prices seem too high to me. From what I have seen, their higher prices do not always equal higher reliability either.


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## rscanady (Nov 12, 2006)

Monocrom said:


> Part of it has to do with Surefire's business practices. Back around 2003, Surefire decided to no longer supply their products to distributors who didn't own brick & mortar stores. Translation: No more deals on discounted Surefires.




This isnt quite true, there are still a number of online retailers that sell Surefire lights, true that SF did pull their prodecuts from a number of online sellers, but not all. This had to do mostly with people selling under the "minimum advertised price" that SF imposes on their vendors. While it was a bad move in customers eyes, I dont think it hurt SF in any way as they are still pumping out products and we are still buying them.



Ryan


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## firefly99 (Nov 12, 2006)

Ilikeshinythings said:


> I get what you're saying. But what are these reasons? If I was in a potentially lethal situation face to face I would take a $20.00 4D maglite over a $200 small handheld surefire. Either way you're gonna blind the hell out of your oponent but with the mag you're gonna crack some skulls.


If you have to ask for the reasons, you do not fully understand this craze about Surefire.
1. No warrior will carry a big heavy "$20 4D Maglite" into battle if they have a "small handheld" that can produce as much or more light. 
2. "equipment failure at the critical moment" is not an option. 

I am not in the business of force entry but any equipment failure at the wrong time would seriously inconvenience and expose me to unnecessary risks. Do not like SF prices but still willing to pay for their lights.

I love those double digit price for Maglite but had been let down many times leaving me in the dark, when my Mag failed to light up due to various reasons.


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## Colorado Fatboy (Nov 12, 2006)

ABTOMAT said:


> I'd amend that to "I can't think of a better choice than _some_ Surefires." I can just picture someone coming face-to-face with a bad guy in the dark somewhere, and the switch on his U2 or E2E breaking when he turns his light on.



That would be bad indeed. While I've never even held a U2 I've never had a problem with my E2E clickie. 

After reading all about the problems people have had, I did the "fix" that involves adding a small washer in between the switch housing parts. It's REALLY smooth now. Don't know about the U2 but I have read the horror stories.

I still trust my E2E as much as my 6P and one of them is in my pocket 99.9% of the time. If it fails then I'll break out my Fenix P1!


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## ringzero (Nov 12, 2006)

Ilikeshinythings said:


> I tried to do a search and came up with nothing. But basically what I want to know is: WHY ARE SUREFIRES SO EXPENSIVE?!...But so are hundreds of other lights that are 1/6th the price.



I've only owned two Surefires, G2 and L1, but I've tried out a few other models belonging to friends, and have examined other models in stores. My impression is that Surefires are typically priced at double what they are actually worth, with the G2 as an exception.

Even if you are in a line of work like law enforcement (which most of us aren't), that calls for a small, bright, reliable light, there are alternative lights available from Pelican, Streamlight, Night Ops, etc. that are as good or better than Surefire. I think there is almost a cult mentality around Surefire, which helps to drive prices higher.

I don't collect lights and am not commenting on Surefire's value in that area. People collect and will pay incredibly high prices for all sorts of stuff: guns, stamps, even old glass insulators and strands of barbed wire. "The value of a thing is what that thing will bring."


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## straightblast (Nov 12, 2006)

There is a saying in the fight game (that I am torturing here a bit) that goes something like this "he who gets there firstest, with the mostest, is the bestest".

Surefire got to the "tactical" market firstest, with the mostest.

Marine buddy of mine had some problems with his SF over in Iraq, it was a pain for his dad to get it taken care of. As I recall, it was a clicky issue of some kind. They did finally resolve it. Nothing is perfect, even if you pay perfect-type money for it.

That said, my EDC is a SF, and one in my vehicle, and one in my wife's vehicle. I am addicted, and I admit it.

Battery prices are what burn my butt.


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## ANW (Nov 12, 2006)

> Battery prices are what burn my butt.


 
Yeah the prices for cr123's are nuts in most stores, even the the surefire ones, oh well all good things come with an expensive price tag attached.


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## MojoLight (Nov 12, 2006)

It's like most anything. If you want the best you pay for it. I have a bunch-o-flashlights and the SF's are undoubtedly the best quality. Threads, fit, finish, and realiablity are superior to any other light I own.

If I could only have ONE flashlight (now that's a nightmare!), it would be a SureFire.


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## vtunderground (Nov 12, 2006)

They charge what people will pay.


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## SCblur (Nov 12, 2006)

1. very high build quality
2. extensive R&D (much of which never comes to market)
3. warranty/CS
4. smaller production base compared to Streamlight, or similar brands
5. in-house production
6. the Surefire name

These are the reasons that come to my mind. You have to understand that there are people who seek value above all else, and for them, there is the Maglight. There are people who seek the best quality/price ratio, and for them many brands abound: Inova, Streamlight, etc. Then, as with any commodity, there are some who seek the highest quality possible at whatever price. For those people, there is Surefire, Arc, HDS, Night-Ops, etc. When it comes to flashlights, I happen to be the latter. What the quality-freaks have come to understand and accept is this:


At the upper-end of the quality spectrum, each additional increase in quality will cost me exponentially more than the last. For example: moving from a mag to an Inova will yield enourmous gains in quality, with a relatively small increase in price. If you continue up this ladder however, the price divisions get larger. Those companies are filling a market niche where the high prices they set are an accepted byproduct of what their consumers are seeking. 

I know my U2 is 500% more expensive than a multi-level fenix, and I know for my 500% increase in price, I may only be getting a 100% increase in quality. And I still prefer my U2. There are people who can't understand why I would make such an illogical choice (my wife being one of them). SF understands that those people are not, and never will be, their market, just as Bentley will never try selling to soccer moms.


That's a bit of a ramble, I hope it came out okay.


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## NAW (Nov 12, 2006)

Lets take this into perspective shall we? 

On Surefire's site they are selling there CR123 batteries for $1.75. There are other CR123 brand batteries out there that I see sale for less than that price. Some go for sale at around $1.00 others a little more. Now is Surefire's batteries somehow magically superior to the other cheaper brands? Not from what I seen. So if Surefire's batteries are not somehow superior than that of others what justifies such 75% increase in price?


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## NAW (Nov 12, 2006)

Looking at the test it didn't look like SF brand batteries did that great. They looked about average to me. And in one of the tests the Sf battery terminated because it overheated.


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## rscanady (Nov 12, 2006)

NAW said:


> Lets take this into perspective shall we?
> 
> On Surefire's site they are selling there CR123 batteries for $1.75. There are other CR123 brand batteries out there that I see sale for less than that price. Some go for sale at around $1.00 others a little more. Now is Surefire's batteries somehow magically superior to the other cheaper brands? Not from what I seen. So if Surefire's batteries are not somehow superior than that of others what justifies such 75% increase in price?




Actually SF batteries do yield better results than some other "generic brands". A search of Silverfox's tests that he has done will show this.

Ryan


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## rscanady (Nov 12, 2006)

ringzero said:


> I've only owned two Surefires, G2 and L1, but I've tried out a few other models belonging to friends, and have examined other models in stores. My impression is that Surefires are typically priced at double what they are actually worth, with the G2 as an exception.
> 
> Even if you are in a line of work like law enforcement (which most of us aren't), that calls for a small, bright, reliable light, there are alternative lights available from Pelican, Streamlight, Night Ops, etc. that are as good or better than Surefire. I think there is almost a cult mentality around Surefire, which helps to drive prices higher.
> 
> I don't collect lights and am not commenting on Surefire's value in that area. People collect and will pay incredibly high prices for all sorts of stuff: guns, stamps, even old glass insulators and strands of barbed wire. "The value of a thing is what that thing will bring."




You said yourself that "The value of a thing is what that thing will bring", but further up you say that surefires are "typically priced at double what they are worth". This seems counter to your latter statement. I would say that since they do bring the price that they are asking then they are indeed worth that much to some, maybe not to you but to others.

My Dad told me once something similar, than an items worth is what any one person is willing to pay for it. Since people buy these surefire's then I guess they are worth it.

My suggestion to some who question the value is to get one yourself and try it out, if you dont like it, sell it, they arent hard to sell around here. Or better yet borrow one from a friend.

In the end folks you have the decision.....vote with you wallet!


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## NAW (Nov 13, 2006)

Okay that is just strange. My earlier post #36 was supposed to be reply to rscandys post #37. How did mines end up before his? Hmm...


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## rscanady (Nov 13, 2006)

that has been happening lately around here, not sure why though. FWIW there are 3 brands of batteries I use, SF, Duracell and Energizer. I have used battery station but am reluctant based on previous events ( I know nothing has been proven, just my choice). The name brands generally tend to last longer than the battery stations and such. I dont disagree that part of the cost is the SF name, that is how it is with many products, but there is some truth to the quality being a little more also.

Ryan


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## firefly99 (Nov 13, 2006)

NAW said:


> On Surefire's site they are selling there CR123 batteries for $1.75. There are other CR123 brand batteries out there that I see sale for less than that price. Some go for sale at around $1.00 others a little more. Now is Surefire's batteries somehow magically superior to the other cheaper brands? Not from what I seen. So if Surefire's batteries are not somehow superior than that of others what justifies such 75% increase in price?


In a supermarket, a pair of CR123 would cost you $5~$10. SF CR123 battery may cost $1.75 each on their website, it may seem more expensive than other brands online. But remember it is still much cheaper compare to supermarket prices.

For anyone who purchase expensive flashlights, such as SF or HDS. It does not make any sense to use a cheap no brand battery that could leak or vent and damage the expensive light. 

If you cannot afford to feed quality batteries to your expensive light, then you simply could not afford the light. Just as in sport car, it is one thing to purchase a sport car. Its fuel consumption and regular maintenance will determine whether you can afford it.


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## ringzero (Nov 13, 2006)

rscanady said:


> You said yourself that "The value of a thing is what that thing will bring", but further up you say that surefires are "typically priced at double what they are worth". This seems counter to your latter statement. I would say that since they do bring the price that they are asking then they are indeed worth that much to some, maybe not to you but to others.



Sorry I didn't make the point more clearly.

I was attempting to differentiate between the intrinsic worth of an item in terms of its actual utility, and its value to a collector.

Since I don't collect flashlights, their value to me is based on their intrinsic worth. To me, the intrinsic worth of a Surefire flashlight is about half its price, because I can purchase flashlights of equal intrinsic worth for about half the price of a Surefire.

A six inch strand of barbed wire might be worth hundreds of bucks to a dedicated barbed wire collector, but to most people it's of no particular value. What is the intrinsic worth of a short strand of barbed wire?



rscanady said:


> My suggestion to some who question the value is to get one yourself and try it out, if you dont like it, sell it, they arent hard to sell around here. Or better yet borrow one from a friend.



Good advice.

Even better advice: also try out some Surefire competitors, like Streamlight, Pelican, Night Ops, etc. Compare them with Surefire, and see for yourself if Surefire's intrinsic worth justifies its higher price.


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## Kiessling (Nov 13, 2006)

Don't get me wrong, I do not advertise Surefire as a must have for everyone, far from it. But ... IF you depend on your light, then I consider SF as the best option out there, at least for now.

The reasons are simple:

1) they are tough as hell
2) they are reliable as hell (well, let's forget about that U2 tailcap for a moment ...  )
3) they are small and easily handled and can be used together with a weapon (if needed)
4) they are bright
5) they are KISS, no distracting bells and whistles, and good interfaces
6) they are LEGO and versatile
7) they use the best materials, machining etc. available
8) they have an outstanding warranty

Now ... if you don't need all this, then don't buy it ... unless, of course, you are an addicted flashaholic :devil:

There's more to it, but those are emotional points:

1) SF furthers the art with their excessive R+D ... they need to recoup those costs. And their work benefits us all. Just look at the clones.
2) SF produces in-house, if that is important for you
3) SF makes more than lights. It is passion. Look at things like the L6-Porcupine. More than just a flashlight.
4) SF cares. They have helped CPF in times of need. I appreciate that they saved our community in the past, and I appreciate that they care.

This is what I think. 

bernie


Ilikeshinythings said:


> I get what you're saying. But what are these reasons? If I was in a potentially lethal situation face to face I would take a $20.00 4D maglite over a $200 small handheld surefire. Either way you're gonna blind the hell out of your oponent but with the mag you're gonna crack some skulls.
> 
> Streamlight from what I hear has a really good customer service base as well...and they are half the price of the Surefires. I think Streamlight is even a tad expensive for what you get...but they are more fairly priced.
> 
> I am sure they're made with great precision quality, but a $1 million dollar Ferrari would probably be made of parts that cost A LOT, IE: Carbon Fiber and composite materials not found on other cars. Type III anodization comes on a lot of cheap lights now aday's, like the XO/T inova series' (all under $100).


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## Buffalohump (Nov 13, 2006)

This is a question I always find interesting, and I would like to refer you another brand that I think is very similar to Surefire, and that is Oakley. Both are made in USA (and make a point of advertising this fact), invest heavilyin R&D and have strong links to the military and law enforcement markets. Both charge considerably more than their competitors. Interestingly, Oakley has a very similar 'price-fix' policy to Surefire. You have to buy their products from an authorised 'brick and mortar' Oakley dealer, and you will find that the price is the same wherever you go.

I do believe high labour and R&D costs have something to do with it, but something called 'brand equity' also plays a large part. In other words, what is the brand worth in the marketplace? Surefire's brand is worth a lot, and to keep this equity high and to stay top of mind, they have to advertise more than other flashlight brands. You see Surefire ads in mags like GQ and Esquire, but you don't see other flashlight brands advertising to this 'non-specialist' market (other than Maglight, say). To stay at the top, they have to spend heavily in terms of marketing, and that gets added to the cost per unit.


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## woodrow (Nov 13, 2006)

Because for a long time, nobody else even came close. Then they were able to create and dominate the industry.

The neat thing is that since everyone can see how much money they are generating, more and more companies are starting to produce just about as good to superior lights for much more reasonable prices to compete.

In the end, surefire may loose market share, but we the customers will win with inproved products by streamlight, AE, wolfeyes, helios ect. I love surefire, I just don't know if I will be buying very many of them in the future. Long live the compitition!!!


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## LEDcandle (Nov 13, 2006)

My sentiments are similar to most of the earlier posts, except that it seems SF reliability is questioned much more often than that of let's say, a Mag! Haha..

I love my SFs but wish they had better QC for something that costs so much. I know their bulbs are probably pushed to the limits and bulbs are a hard thing to predict. A mag-bulb is so much simpler and dimmer that it might be more 'reliable' in that sense. 

But I read about a lot of problems with simple things like SF's clickies and their LED lights. I even have a normal twisty with momentary that doesn't always activate the light. It's a pain to send it back for international customers. 

So I guess when they work right, they're worth the money. When they don't, it sometimes makes you scratch your head why you're paying so much money for something like that.


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## Vinnyp (Nov 13, 2006)

woodrow said:


> Because for a long time, nobody else even came close. Then they were able to create and dominate the industry.
> 
> The neat thing is that since everyone can see how much money they are generating, more and more companies are starting to produce just about as good to superior lights for much more reasonable prices to compete.
> 
> In the end, surefire may loose market share, but we the customers will win with inproved products by streamlight, AE, wolfeyes, helios ect. I love surefire, I just don't know if I will be buying very many of them in the future. Long live the compitition!!!


 
I couldn't agree more. I just realised my E2E is a good few years old now and at the time maglites were seen as great and Led lights were just a gimmic. That power in such a small well built package was just mind blowing. So then it was the only choice. In the UK we have to pay 1.5x as much as the US so it was a big outlay. 

I may sell it now as it's never used but whoever bought it would get a great light as it is still unmarked. I love my Fenix lights which may technically be HAIII but they look worn a few weeks after I get them where as my SF L2 looks and feels like it could be used to sharpen an axe with. The Surefires are never going to be good value for money like a lot of premium products but they have got the pedigree and no corners are cut in terms of the materials and machining.


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## Aaron1100us (Nov 13, 2006)

Surefires are great and I hope to get more. Yes, they can be expensive and they can be cheap too. heck, the G2 is only $35. And Surefire is the ONLY company I know of to give away flashlights. I got a E1L FREE from them just by submitting a flashlight story to them. Can't get much cheaper than that. Yeah, I paid over $200 for my M3 and that was even before I got the E1L but I believe it was so worth it. I work security at a hospital (graveyard shift) and I need flashlights that I know will work and are bright. I keep my Surefire G2, E1L and M3 on my duty belt at all times plus extra batteries. For their size, they are really bright. My M3 is way brighter than say a stock 3D maglite which is way bigger and don't allways work. The finish on Surefires is great too, my lights get banged around and you can't even tell, even the G2 that is made of Nitrolon is allmost three years old and looks the same and performs the same as it did when I first bought it. Oh, about batteries, you can get them for 1$ online.


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## bwaites (Nov 13, 2006)

Anyone familiar with the Governments "lowest priced bid" concept?

Surefires can't be sold to dealers at a lower price than the government pays. Therefore the price the dealers sell for is higher than that price. 

It's simple, the government gets a certain price, a price that Surefire must make money on to stay in business. Then the same or a slightly higher price is given to dealers and Surefire recommends the price that they sell at. It's not price fixing, because the dealer can SELL at a lower cost, they just can't advertise that price according to contract with Surfire. 

At least that is how it was explained to me by a large government purchaser.


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## pilou (Nov 13, 2006)

It must be all that R&D money they have been spending for years ... on designing a freaking clickie switch :lolsign:

Jokes aside, it is all the money they spend on producing macho videos to cultivate their brand image.


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## bigfoot (Nov 13, 2006)

It took me a while to cough up the dough for my first Surefire. It was a G2 in black, older style without the lock-out tailcap.

"$36?!" I said to myself. "That's completely nuts that you are going to spend that much on a flashlight!"

Oh little did I know that was just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. :help:

More recently I bought a Surefire E1L. You can feel the quality when you pick it up. At $99 it is the most expensive flashlight that I have ever bought. I stood there for what must have seemed like an eternity to the clerk behind the counter. Thankfully he was a really nice guy. I knew the Surefire name meant it was tougher than I would ever need, and that sealed the deal. I walked out with the E1L.

The offerings from Surefire aren't cheap, but you can still get a G2 for roughly $36 and ditto on a 6P for about $56. Those are still great lights and the pricetag isn't going to break most people's accounts.

I'm more than happy to pay extra for the excellent construction and performance. Not to mention that it keeps my money here in the U.S., supporting American businesses. With so many opportunities for outsourcing and moving production overseas, I'm okay with rewarding our free enterprises for a job well done. Capitalism at its best.

Personally, I hope Surefire, Inova, HDS, Arc, and the like don't bother to lower their prices. Great quality comes with a cost.


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## jackpot316 (Nov 13, 2006)

I stay away from Surefire For ONE reason the price tag is out of this world and I seen lite's as good if not better than surefire and half the price YOU ARE PAYING FOR A NAME bottom line. Should change the name to surehigh.


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## The Porcupine (Nov 13, 2006)

jackpot316 said:


> I stay away from Surefire For ONE reason the price tag is out of this world and I seen lite's as good if not better than surefire and half the price YOU ARE PAYING FOR A NAME bottom line. Should change the name to surehigh.


So the grapes are sour this year?:laughing: [j/k!] Have you owned and used a Surefire for any lenght of time?
Before I got my first (6P) I couldn't fathom anybody would pay that much for a flashlight. Well, seeing is believing!
And that goes for quite a few other things as well, BTW! Once, I was 112% sure I'd never, ever pay more than $100,- for a knife......!


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## Monocrom (Nov 13, 2006)

rscanady said:


> This isnt quite true, there are still a number of online retailers that sell Surefire lights, true that SF did pull their prodecuts from a number of online sellers, but not all. This had to do mostly with people selling under the "minimum advertised price" that SF imposes on their vendors. While it was a bad move in customers eyes, I dont think it hurt SF in any way as they are still pumping out products and we are still buying them.
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan


 
True, Surefire definitely wasn't hurt by it..... But now anyone who claims to have gotten a great deal on a Surefire is a liar.


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## Brighteyez (Nov 13, 2006)

Simply put, they are catering to a demographic that is willing to pay the price they ask for their products. If no one bought their products at the prices they set, then the price points that are currently set would have been reevaluated. Some of their basic products are not out of line with the pricing of comparable products from other vendors, e.g. G2/Scorpion, 6P/TL-2, NF-2, PM-6

The more exotic lights would have less appeal and would command a higher price point to offset the costs of R&D and decreased production volumes. 

*EDIT* Upon closer examination, the list prices between the Surefire and Streamlight products reveals that the list price on the Streamlights are actually quite a bit higher than they are on the Surefire products. The difference is that Streamlights can be found with pricing at significantly lower
points than MSRP, while the Surefires are generally sold at their MSRP. One example would be price of a Surefire 6P at $59 and then compare it to the list price of $78 for the comparable SL TL-2 (which is the price that my local uniform supplier/Streamlight Warranty Station charges for this light.) 



Ilikeshinythings said:


> WHY ARE SUREFIRES SO EXPENSIVE?!


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## Monocrom (Nov 13, 2006)

A better comparison of the G2 would be the Brinkmann Maxfire LX.
G2 = $30 off internet, $70 from Brick & Mortar store.
Maxfire = $17 at Target.

Same performance. Not much of a comparison.


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## Brighteyez (Nov 13, 2006)

Just about any $1 CR123 that you find whether it be on a web site or auction site is sourced from China either under a house brand or some unknown brand, including the OEM Panasonics commonly found on fleaBay that are intended to be packaged with flashlight products.

While both Streamlight and Surefire also have house brands, they are sourced from US plants, as are the name brand producers that are sold in the U.S. like Eveready, Duracell, Panasonic. Of those brands, Eveready and Duracell explicitly warranty damage that their batteries may cause to your flashlight or other product that they are used in.



NAW said:


> Lets take this into perspective shall we?
> 
> On Surefire's site they are selling there CR123 batteries for $1.75. There are other CR123 brand batteries out there that I see sale for less than that price. Some go for sale at around $1.00 others a little more. Now is Surefire's batteries somehow magically superior to the other cheaper brands? Not from what I seen. So if Surefire's batteries are not somehow superior than that of others what justifies such 75% increase in price?


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## greenLED (Nov 13, 2006)

Monocrom said:


> But now anyone who claims to have gotten a great deal on a Surefire is a liar.


I strongly disagree with your statement, Monocrom. I have several SF's, and I truly believe that for the quality of the product, the technology involved, their reliability, and warranty, I got an absolute bargain for each and every one of the SF lights I own.

Maybe you don't share my assessment, or the way I place value on the tools I decide to use, but that doesn't make me a liar.


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## Monocrom (Nov 13, 2006)

greenLED said:


> I strongly disagree with your statement, Monocrom. I have several SF's, and I truly believe that for the quality of the product, the technology involved, their reliability, and warranty, I got an absolute bargain for each and every one of the SF lights I own.
> 
> Maybe you don't share my assessment, or the way I place value on the tools I decide to use, but that doesn't make me a liar.


 
Obviously that statement wasn't a personal one directed at you.

But as good of a bargain as you may have gotten on your lights, my point was that a few years ago (depending on the site) you could have gotten even *better *bargains. That's the standard of comparison I was using.

Hope this clears things up.


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## Brighteyez (Nov 13, 2006)

I don't know if you're fabricating this or if there is some sort of mistaken quote, but my local uniform supply store sells the G2 for $34-36, pretty much the same Surefire's MSRP price.



Monocrom said:


> G2 = $30 off internet, $70 from Brick & Mortar store.


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## Monocrom (Nov 13, 2006)

Brighteyez said:


> I don't know if you're fabricating this or if there is some sort of mistaken quote, but my local uniform supply store sells the G2 for $34-36, pretty much the same Surefire's MSRP price.


 
Nope, no lie.

There's 3 stores I know of on Manhattan Island that sells Surefires. All 3 have the G2 listed for $70!


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## Brighteyez (Nov 13, 2006)

They're probably not Surefire dealers and are reselling the lights acquired from secondary sources. I find it hard to believe that people in NYC would be that gullible.

*EDIT* I just thought of something. It's possible that they might boost the price to make it competitive with the list price of the Scorpion (which is around $60 IIRC.)



Monocrom said:


> Nope, no lie.
> 
> There's 3 stores I know of on Manhattan Island that sells Surefires. All 3 have the G2 listed for $70!


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## slvoid (Nov 13, 2006)

Not to poo-poo all over this... but Oakley and R&D don't exactly mix.. In fact, I can quite easily design a new frame in solidworks, export it to a die maker, and for about 10 grand, have a die made and have someone pop out frames at less than a buck a piece for 100k pieces, even better if it's a multi-cam multi part mold with like 50 shots that'll allow me to mix and match and make several million frames a year.

I just got a HDS EDC and the quality and design put into that seems far ahead of surefire, at a similar price point to boot.



Buffalohump said:


> This is a question I always find interesting, and I would like to refer you another brand that I think is very similar to Surefire, and that is Oakley. Both are made in USA (and make a point of advertising this fact), invest heavilyin R&D and have strong links to the military and law enforcement markets. Both charge considerably more than their competitors. Interestingly, Oakley has a very similar 'price-fix' policy to Surefire. You have to buy their products from an authorised 'brick and mortar' Oakley dealer, and you will find that the price is the same wherever you go.
> 
> I do believe high labour and R&D costs have something to do with it, but something called 'brand equity' also plays a large part. In other words, what is the brand worth in the marketplace? Surefire's brand is worth a lot, and to keep this equity high and to stay top of mind, they have to advertise more than other flashlight brands. You see Surefire ads in mags like GQ and Esquire, but you don't see other flashlight brands advertising to this 'non-specialist' market (other than Maglight, say). To stay at the top, they have to spend heavily in terms of marketing, and that gets added to the cost per unit.


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## Monocrom (Nov 13, 2006)

Brighteyez said:


> They're probably not Surefire dealers and are reselling the lights acquired from secondary sources. I find it hard to believe that people in NYC would be that gullible.


 
One store, a large Army / Navy store on Chambers St., claimed to be the biggest, Authorized, SF dealers in NYC.

I checked! They get their lights from Surefire.... That's the sad part!


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## jackpot316 (Nov 13, 2006)

The Porcupine said:


> So the grapes are sour this year?:laughing: [j/k!] Have you owned and used a Surefire for any lenght of time?
> Before I got my first (6P) I couldn't fathom anybody would pay that much for a flashlight. Well, seeing is believing!
> And that goes for quite a few other things as well, BTW! Once, I was 112% sure I'd never, ever pay more than $100,- for a knife......!


 NOPE never own one But my buddy did leave his L4 in my truck one night and I had a chance to play around with it a few days did not impress me at all other THAN when he called about he lost his light and I gave him the good news then he said how much it cost I was like I be right over and bring it to you I sure didnt want to have to pay him for that monster.That is when I started a search online on everything I could find about the surefire line and if he was pulling my leg on the cost and found out he was telling me the truth.

I am not putting the surefire down I am putting down really the high price they have on these babys
Just like this question find a surefire that can even come close to the Streamlite ultrastinger in brightness for the size and the price it can't be beat not even in quility, it still matches up to the surefire in my opinion.My cousin is a local duputy Sheriff that has 5 surefires he has always been a hardcore surefire man Until a few months ago when he bought a ultrastinger now you can't pry it out of his hands He gave everyone of his surefires to his workmates. I have to blame him for me going to this ultrastinger he bought it out a few weeks ago and I checked this badboy out and was IN LOVE. He said he has knocked out a few people with it and have busteed out winshelds and dropped in a swamp its been ran over and fell off the top of his car and he said he even blinded a guy so bad one night the guy could not even see how to get to a knife he had on his seat he was reaching everywhere but the right place.So I got me one and made a big mistake and looked into the beam and I was blined for a few mins. yeap it was dumb.It's for sure not a toy.


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## Brighteyez (Nov 13, 2006)

Surplus stores around here are known to charge above market prices for many goods as well. I generally avoid them, probably because there isn't anything in there that I can't find elsewhere at both a better price and better quality.



Monocrom said:


> One store, a large Army / Navy store on Chambers St., claimed to be the biggest, Authorized, SF dealers in NYC.
> 
> I checked! They get their lights from Surefire.... That's the sad part!


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## SmithWessonLites (Nov 13, 2006)

Speaking as one of their competitors, I can assure you SureFire makes one excellent light. I think if you read every reply on this subject, you'll eventually get an idea of why SureFire is so expensive. Below is my two cents:

Marketing. 

Because of their great marketing, they've convinced almost everyone their product is superior. They are very innovative and have THE best looking lights on the market. Period. However, as many in this forum certainly know better than I, tons of other lights are out there which perform better and have the same warranty for half the cost. You do get what you pay for, but only to a point. 

Personally, I'm happy their lights sell for so much. It makes selling our lights easier. Wow, I can't believe I made it through this whole reply without pitching one of my own products...Amazing...SW700XT....ooops...Sorry...jP


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## Martin (Nov 13, 2006)

SF was first in this market and has now achieved a good market penetration in 2nd and 3rd world.
One could easily buy a 6P in Thailand and then find spares and accessories for it in Cambodia. Any other brand (except Mag) is much less present. I understand this doesn't come free and I'm glad that SF makes these lights available (while I only bought their basic products).


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## bwaites (Nov 13, 2006)

I find this statement interesting;

"However, as many in this forum certainly know better than I, tons of other lights are out there which perform better and have the same warranty for half the cost."

Please ID those lights, model for model, and I'll sign up for some!


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## Badbeams3 (Nov 13, 2006)

I`ll take a shot at it too. Let`s see...When CPF started (I believe I was member # 54...learned to type here...but not spell) they where the brightest for there size lights. This was because they used 123 batts...the only company that did...and great reflectors. 

They made the cases thick and put heavy grooves on them...looked cool.

They took pictures of guys with military uniforms, helmets and bullet proof vests on with guns...called them "tactile" (cool name) and suggested they were lights bought/used by professionals.

Somewhere folks started thinking that the miltary/gov bought them (never known of any gov that supplied them...not a USA gov anyway...but somehow the rumour still abounds). 

So marketing...and the use of 123 batts to bump up the volts (now days we have step-ups and regulators)...and grooves on the cases...thats how I see the story.

But things could change fast...Fenix for example, could put out a "tactile" line...maybe a line of Titanium lights with heavy grooves. Take pics of guy`s dressed up in military stuff and steal some wind.

Just rambling.

Ken


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## elgarak (Nov 13, 2006)

bwaites said:


> I find this statement interesting;
> 
> "However, as many in this forum certainly know better than I, tons of other lights are out there which perform better and have the same warranty for half the cost."
> 
> Please ID those lights, model for model, and I'll sign up for some!


Me too. 

To be sure: Compare similar body material only (no doubt there are cheaper plastic lights out there). 

And also compare MSRP only. I have seen a lot of lights advertised for way lower price than MSRP. However, if you bother to look up MSRP, the price advantages to SFs vanished... or was way less. As others have explained, the thing is that SF has government contracts, so it's difficult to get SFs way below MSRP... as opposed to (most) other manufacturers.


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## RAF_Groundcrew (Nov 13, 2006)

Badbeams said:


> Somewhere folks started thinking that the miltary/gov bought them (never known of any gov that supplied them...not a USA gov anyway...but somehow the rumour still abounds).


A great many of the Surefire product line have Nato Stock Numbers (NSN), so they *could* be ordered for military use by any NATO member country.

Fact is, apart from the USA, many countries spend very little on such things (I'm in the British Air Force, and we are quite poorly equipped on that front). Look at the news from Iraq, just about every American soldier/marine seen there has a pimped up M16, lights, lasers, scopes...... Here in Britain, we're not allowed to accessorise like that, we don't even get a flashlight issued for use at night when issued a rifle (can't hit what you can't see).


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## elgarak (Nov 13, 2006)

SmithWessonLites said:


> Because of their great marketing, they've convinced almost everyone their product is superior. They are very innovative and have THE best looking lights on the market. Period. However, as many in this forum certainly know better than I, tons of other lights are out there which perform better and have the same warranty for half the cost. You do get what you pay for, but only to a point.


Frankly, it was not marketing that convinced me that Surefires ARE, for the most part, superior. To be true, it was word-of-mouth here on the forums that made me buy my first SF, an L2. When I got it, I understood most of the praise. I got more SFs than that, and all had the same great quality. 

However, what is superior is quite often in the eyes of the beholder. For some here, superior means brighter only. So they are disappointed and can't understand why SF still charges so much when the light in question was simply not as bright as some competitor. Engineering and machining quality, and a well designed user interface, are the factors that, IMO, most overlooked when SF is criticized for their price.

I have not encountered a single light that came close in all factors, point for point, to Surefire quality and was significantly cheaper. That includes lights of Chinese manufacturing. Frankly, I do not think that SFs are overpriced, when not even Chinese lights can beat them with a way lower price.

To be sure, I do not say that SF are the best of the best of the best of all things. There are better lights out there, and there are good lights out there cheaper (not that both groups are identical, mind you). I have bought enough other brands. What I criticize is the "Surefire sucks because they're so expensive" attitude, which is not justified by the facts.


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## Badbeams3 (Nov 13, 2006)

I don`t know about flashlights...night vision wear, IF scopes...make sense. Maybe a fashlight on a gun would make sense storming a building...but it also makes for an easy target for group of folks with AKA-47`s on automatic...just point toward the light a hold the trigger down...seems to be what used by the bad guy`s now day`s. My thinking anyway...but I really wouldn`t know first hand.


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## Sable (Nov 13, 2006)

I can't comment on "it's worth it" or not due to only owning one Surefire, and a modded one at that. What I can say is that it "feels" like an extremely high-quality piece of equipment.

While price is always a consideration, one that supercedes that for me is quality. I have an Aurora 1.5w, which is similar to my "old-style" Surefire L1 in dimensions, but in a somewhat intangible way the SureFire feels a whole lot better in my hand. Just a better piece of equipment.

I paid 175 all told for this little bit of kit, and while that price does sting a little...barring actually losing the thing (I doubt I can break it) I don't think I'll ever "have" to replace it. There might be some other lights that I'll buy to have a long in case the battery dies at an inopportune time, or I have to loan it out, or it just isn't bright enough, but for EDC it's just about perfect. After having spent easily what this thing cost me on replacement parts for my Mag-AAs that I somehow manage to keep breaking in the past five or six years, it's nice to feel that rosy glow of "one-time investment."


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## NAW (Nov 13, 2006)

bwaites said:


> I find this statement interesting;
> 
> "However, as many in this forum certainly know better than I, tons of other lights are out there which perform better and have the same warranty for half the cost."
> 
> Please ID those lights, model for model, and I'll sign up for some!


 
I would say the Helios as one candidate.


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## ringzero (Nov 13, 2006)

SmithWessonLites said:


> Because of their great marketing, they've convinced almost everyone their product is superior. They are very innovative and have THE best looking lights on the market. Period.



Sorry SmithWessonLites, but I have to disagree.

To my eyes, most of the Surefire lights are just plain plug ugly. However, there's no accounting for taste, and I've always believed that function is more important than form. There are a few exceptions like the G2, which has decent styling.

Generally, Surefires don't have the sleek lines of some of their competitors. Rather, they look as if they are threaded together from discrete parts; which of course they are, as are their competitors. Some Surefires look almost like a section of pipe, with one end capped off and some sort of shower head screwed onto the other end. In short, they put me in mind of plumbing.

Once again, there is no accounting for taste, and if Surefire lights look good to you, your opinion is just as valid as mine.


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## Lobo (Nov 13, 2006)

Aaron1100us said:


> And Surefire is the ONLY company I know of to give away flashlights. I got a E1L FREE from them just by submitting a flashlight story to them.


 
Think I can beat that. Allthough a much cheaper light, but when I only asked on this forum whether you could buy the Dorcy Metal Gear in Sweden (which you couldn't) the good folks at Dorcy shipped me one for free.
Gotta love those crazy canadians.


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## TENMMIKE (Nov 13, 2006)

badbeams




im staggard by that answere, here is a list of nsn (national stock numbers)for surefire 
NSN ORDERING
SureFire provides NSN (National/ NATO Stock Numbers) for numerous products listed below. If you have problems locating our NSN numbers in your system please contact SureFire at 1-800-828-8809. Must call to order. BATTERY-POWERED FLASHLIGHTSITEM NUMBERITEM DESCRIPTION NSNIncandescent6P-BKFL, BLACK ANO, MOMNTRY TLCP SW, 6V, 1.25 BEZ 6230-01-381-3292A2-HA-BLFL, AVIATOR, OD HARD ANO, DUAL OUTPUT: BLUE LEDS + INCAND, 6V, 1.13 BEZ 6230-01-532-5463A2-HA-RDFL, AVIATOR, OD HARD ANO, DUAL OUTPUT: RED LEDS + INCAND, 6V, 1.13 BEZ 6230-01-531-7033A2-HA-WHFL, AVIATOR, OD HARD ANO, DUAL OUTPUT: WHITE LEDS + INCAND, 6V, 1.13 BEZ 6230-01-522-6602A2-HA-YGFL, AVIATOR, OD HARD ANO, DUAL OUTPUT: YELLOW-GREEN LEDS + INCAND, 6V, 1.13 BEZ6230-01-531-7032C2-HAFL, CENTURION, OD HARD ANO, COMBATGRIP BODY, MOMNTRY TLCP SW, CLIP, 6V, 1.25 BEZ 6230-01-522-6603C3-HAFL, CENTURION, OD HARD ANO, COMBATGRIP BODY, MOMNTRY TLCP SW, CLIP, 9V, 1.25 BEZ 6230-01-522-6606E1E-HAFL, EXEC, ELITE, OD HARD ANO, MOMNT TLCP SW, CLIP, 3V, 1.00 BEZ 6230-01-531-7034E2D-BKFL, EXEC DEFENDER, BLACK HARD ANO, CRENELATED BEZ, MOMNTRY TLCP SW, CLIP, 6V, 1.00 BEZ 6230-01-522-6607E2E-HAFL, EXEC, ELITE, OD HARD ANO, MOMNT TLCP SW, CLIP, 6V, 1.00 BEZ 6230-01-531-7035G2-BKFL, BLACK POLYMER, 6V, 1.25 BEZ 6230-01-522-6609G2-TNFL, TAN POLYMER, 6V, 1.25 BEZ 6230-01-531-7037 G2Z-BKFL, BLACK POLYMER, COMBATGRIP BODY, 6V, 1.25 BEZ 6230-01-529-5793G2Z-ODFL, OD POLYMER, COMBATGRIP BODY, 6V, 1.25 BEZ 6230-01-531-7038G2Z-TNFL, TAN POLYMER, COMBATGRIP BODY, 6V, 1.25 BEZ 6230-01-529-4966M1FL, INFRARED, LED, 10MW, 3V, 1.00 BEZ 5855-01-529-5375M2FL, CENTURION, OD HARD ANO, COMBATGRIP BODY, SHOCK ISOL LAMP, CLIP, 6V, 1.47 BEZ 6230-01-532-3740 M3FL, COMBATLIGHT, OD HARD ANO, COMBATGRIP BODY, SHOCK ISOL LAMP, 9V, 1.62 BEZ 6230-01-522-6616M4FL, DEVASTATOR, TURBOHEAD, OD HARD ANO, SHOCK ISOL LAMP, 12V, 2.50 BEZ 6230-01-522-6617M6FL, GUARDIAN, OD HARD ANO, TURBOHEAD, SHOCK ISOL LAMP, 18V, 2.50 BEZ 6230-01-529-6196Z2-BKFL, BLACK ANO, COMBATGRIP BODY, MOMNTRY TLCP SW, 6V, 1.25 BEZ 6230-01-513-6430LEDL1-HA-BLFL, LUMAMAX, OD HARD ANO, DUAL OUTPUT BLUE LED, CLIP, 3V, 1.00 BEZ 6230-01-531-7040 L1-HA-RDFL, LUMAMAX, OD HARD ANO, DUAL OUTPUT RED LED, CLIP, 3V, 1.00 BEZ 6230-01-531-7041 L1-HA-WHFL, LUMAMAX, OD HARD ANO, DUAL OUTPUT WHITE LED, 3V, 1.00 BEZ 6230-01-531-7042 L2-HA-WHFL, LUMAMAX, OD HARD ANO, DUAL OUTPUT WHITE LED, CLIP, 6V, 1.00 BEZ 6230-01-522-6610L4-HA-WHFL, LUMAMAX, OD HARD ANO, WHITE LED, MOMNTRY TLCP SW, CLIP, 6V, 1.00 BEZ6230-01-522-6611L5-HA-WHFL, LUMAMAX, OD HARD ANO, WHITE LED, COMBATGRIP BODY, CLICK ON/OFF TLCP SW, CLIP, 6V, 1.47 BEZ 6230-01-522-6612L6-HA-WHFL, LUMAMAX, OD HARD ANO, WHITE LED, COMBATGRIP BODY, CLICK ON/OFF TLCP SW, CLIP, 9V, 1.62 BEZ 6230-01-529-5788U2-BK-WHFL, U2 ULTRA, BLACK HARD ANO, 2-80 LUM VARIABLE OUTPUT LED, CLIP, 6V, 1.47 BEZ 6230-01-522-6622
RECHARGEABLE FLASHLIGHTSITEM NUMBERITEM DESCRIPTION NSNIncandescent8AX415-HAFL, COMMANDER, RECHG, OD HARD ANO, INCL 2 BATS + CHARGER + AC TRNSFMR + 12V ADPTR, 1.47 BEZ 6230-01-532-41829AN415-BKFL, COMMANDER, RECHG, BLACK HARD ANO, INCL 2 BATS + CHARGER + AC TRNSFMR + 12V ADPTR, 1.62 BEZ 6230-01-522-660410X911FL, 10X DOMINATOR, RECHG, POLYMER DUAL OUTPUT, INCL CHARGER + 1 BAT + AC TRNSFMR + 12VDC ADPTR 6230-01-522-6601LEDL7-415-BK-WHFL, LUMAMAX, RECHG, BLACK HARD ANO, WHITE LED, INCL 2 BATS + CHARGER + AC TRNSFMR + 12V ADPTR, 1.47 BEZ 6230-01-529-5789
LED CONVERSION HEADSITEM NUMBERITEM DESCRIPTION NSNKL1-HA-WH CONV HEAD, OD HARD ANO, WHITE LED, 15 LUM, 3V/6V, 1.00 BEZ, FITS E1E, E2E 6230-01-529-5785KL3-BK-WHCONV HEAD, BLACK ANO, WHITE LED, 19.5 LUM, 6V, 1.47 BEZ, FITS 6P,C2, C3, D2, D3, G2, G2Z, M2, Z2, Z3 6230-01-529-5787KL4-HA-WHCONV HEAD, OD HARD ANO, WHITE LED, 65 LUM, 6V, 1.00 BEZ, FITS E2E, E2D, E2O6230-01-529-5786
WEAPONLIGHTSITEM NUMBERITEM DESCRIPTION NSNHandgun WeaponLightsX200AWL, 3W LED, BLACK HARD ANO, INTEGRAL UNIV/PICTNY RAIL CLAMP, PUSH/TOGGLE SW, 6V, 1.00 BEZ, 30M SUBMERSIBLE1005-01-522-6963W111CWL, MILIT, FOR GLOCKS XCPT ULT CMPCTS, INCL ADPTR MNT, SLIMLN GRIP SW + CONST-ON SW, 6V, 1.36 BEZ, 20M SUBM 6230-01-529-5792W111DWL, MILIT, FOR GLOCKS XCPT ULT CMPCTS, INCL ADPTR MNT, SLIMLN GRIP SW + SYS DSABL SW, 6V, 1.36 BEZ, 20M SUBM6230-01-529-5791W115CWL, MILIT, FOR USP 45/.40/9MM (NOT CMPCT), INCL ADPTR MNT, SLIMLN GRIP SW + CONST-ON SW, 6V, 1.36 BEZ, 20M SUBM5230-01-529-6194Rifle, Carbine & SMG Flashlight Systems490DUAL WL/LASER SIGHT, FITS HK MP5K-PDW, **** TUBE PLUG MT, TAPE SW OPS LIGHT & LSR SIMULT, 6V, 1.36 BEZ5860-01-529-4962628WL, DED FRND FOR HK 94/MP5 AND VARIANTS, PRESS PAD SW, 6V, 1.36 BEZ 6230-01-519-7549660WL, CLASSIC, FOR COLT M4/ CAR15/M16, BARREL MOUNT, XM TLCP: CLICK ON/OFF + PLUG-IN TAPE SW, 6V, 1.36 BEZ 6230-01-527-5765M600AWL, SCOUT, LED, INCL THMBSCRW RAIL MNT + CLICK-ON/OFF TLCP SW + 7" TAPE SW, 6V, 1.00 BEZ 6230-01-525-4109M600 KIT01WL, SCOUT, LED, INCL THMBSCRW RAIL MT+CLICK-ON/OFF TLCP SW+7" TAPE SW+INCAND HEAD+IR FLTR, 6V, 1.00 BEZ 6240-01-532-4180M900A-RDWL, VERTICAL FOREGRIP, RED NAVIGT LEDS, THROWLEVER PICTNY RAIL CLAMP, 9V, 1.62 BEZ 1005-01-529-4968M900AB-RDWL, VERTICAL FOREGRIP, TURBOHEAD, RED NAVIGT LEDS, THROWLEVER PICTNY RAIL CLAMP, 9V, 2.50 BEZ 1005-01-529-4970M910A-BLWL, VERTICAL FOREGRIP, BLUE NAVIGT LEDS, THUMBSCREW PICTNY RAIL CLAMP, 9V, 1.62 BEZ 6240-01-532-4186M910AB-RDWL, VERTICAL FOREGRIP, TURBOHEAD, RED NAVIGT LEDS, THUMBSCREW PICTNY RAIL CLAMP, 9V, 2.50 BEZ 1005-01-529-5332M951 KIT02M951XM06/FM63 KIT6240-01-532-4184M961XM07WL, MILL UNIV, XM TLCP: CLICK ON/OFF + 7" PLUG-IN TAPE SW, THUMBSCREW PICTNY RAIL CLAMP, 9V, 1.62 BEZ 6230-01-528-2989Shotgun WeaponLights618FAWL, DED FRND FOR REM 870, PRESS PAD + CONST-ON RKR SW, 6V, 1.36 BEZ 5930-01-503-1848618FGAWL, DED FRND FOR REM 870, PRESS PAD + CONST-ON RKR SW + SYS DISABLE RKR SW, 6V, 1.36 BEZ6230-01-532-4183 623FGAWL, DED FRND FOR MOSSBG 500/590 REG BBL, PRESS PAD SW + CONST-ON RKR SW + SYS DISABLE RKR SW, 6V, 1.36 BEZ6240-01-532-4179 
LASER SIGHTSITEM NUMBERITEM DESCRIPTION NSNL72LASER SIGHT, MODULE ONLY, VISIBLE RED, 635 NM 1260-01-527-8984L75LASER SIGHT, MODULE ONLY, INRARED, 830 NM 1260-01-527-8983
EDGED WEAPONSITEM NUMBERITEM DESCRIPTION NSN
BATTERIESITEM NUMBERITEM DESCRIPTION NSNSF223ACBATTERY STICK, 6V LITHIUM 6135-01-503-1616SF72-BBSF123A, 6 BOXES OF 12 SF123A CELLS 6135-01-522-6679
RAILS AND MOUNTSITEM NUMBERITEM DESCRIPTION NSNM10MOUNT, WEAVER, 1" RING 6230-01-418-0078M23MOUNT, UNIV HSG TO MP5SD 1.60" 6230-01-521-4819MR08MOUNT, W/INTEG RAIL, ATTACHES X200 WL TO HK USP 9MM/.40/.45 COMPACT 1005-01-529-4971
COMPONENTS & ACCESSORIESITEM NUMBERITEM DESCRIPTION NSNTurbo Conversion KitsKT1-HACONV KIT, TURBOHEAD, OD HARD ANO, INC LAMP + REFLECTOR/BEZEL ASSY, FITS M2/OD HARD ANO C2 6230-01-529-4967KT3-HACONV KIT, TURBOHEAD, OD HARD ANO, INCL LAMP + REFLECTOR/BEZEL ASSY, FITS OD HARD ANO 9AN 6230-01-529-4969Beam FiltersF03FILTER, SLIP-ON, INFRA-RED, FITS 1.00 BEZ 5855-01-525-3744F05FILTER, SLIP-ON, FLIP-UP, RED FILTER, FITS 1.00 BEZ 5855-01-525-3745F38DIRECTING WAND, SLIP-ON, RED, FITS 1.62 BEZ: 9AN FLASHLIGHT 6240-01-522-6676FM17FILTER, CLAMP-ON, FLIP-UP, OPAQUE COVER, FITS 1.62 BEZ 5240-01-529-4667FM27FILTER, CLAMP-ON, FLIP-UP, OPAQUE COVER, FITS 2.50 BEZ 6240-01-529-4666FM33FILTER, CLAMP-ON, FLIP-UP, INFRARED, FITS 1.25 BEZ5855-01-531-7036FM37FILTER, CLAMP-ON, FLIP-UP, OPAQUE COVER, FITS 1.25 BEZ 6240-01-529-4668FM67FILTER, CLAMP-ON, FLIP-UP, OPAQUE COVER, FITS 1.47 BEZ 6240-01-529-4669Lamp AssembliesL606V SUPER XENON LAMP MODULE 6230-01-520-5380MA02LAMP, INCAND, FOR 6V SYS, 50 LUMENS, FITS A2 AVIATOR 6240-01-531-7044 MN02LAMP, INCAND, FOR 6V SYS, 25 LUMENS, FITS E2E, E2D, E2O 6240-01-531-7043 MN03LAMP, INCAND, 60 LUMENS, FITS E2E, E2D, E2O 6240-01-522-6615MN10LAMP ASSY, MN10 6240-01-522-6613MN21LAMP, INCAND, FOR 18V SYS, 500 LUMENS, FITS M66240-01-531-7045MN30LAMP ASSY, MN30 6240-01-522-6614MN31LAMP ASSY, MN31 6240-01-522-6618MN60LAMP ASSY, MN60 6240-01-522-6619MN61LAMP, INCAND, FOR 12V SYS, 350 LUMENS, FITS M4 6240-01-531-7046 N90LAMP, INCAND, DUAL 20/140 LUMEN OUTPUT, FOR 9AN FLASHLIGHT 6240-01-522-6620P60LAMP, INCAND, FOR 6V UNITS, 65 LUMENS, INTEGRAL REFLECTOR 6240-01-513-6526P61LAMP, INCAND, FOR 6V UNITS, 100 LUMENS, INTEGRAL REFLECTOR 6240-01-521-4822P90LAMP, INCAND, FOR 9V UNITS, 105 LUMENS, INTEGRAL REFLECTOR 6240-01-522-6621P91LAMP, INCAND, FOR 9V SYS, 200 LUMENS, INTEGRAL REFLECTOR 6240-01-532-3744Spares CarriersSC1SPARES CARRIER, HOLDS 1 LAMP + 6 123A BATTERIES, FITS LAMPS P60, P61, P90, P91, R30, R60 6240-01-532-4209 SC2SPARES CARRIER, HOLDS 1 LAMP + 6 123A BATTERIES, FITS LAMPS MA02, MN10/11/15/16/20/21/60/61, N1/2/4/5/62 6240-01-532-4211 SC3SPARES CARRIER, HOLDS 1 LAMP+ 6 123A BATTERIES, FITS LAMPS MA02, MN01, MN02, MN036240-01-532-4210 AdaptersA12ADAPTER, CLASSIC SYS, ALLOWS ATTACHMENT OF L36, L37, L39, L60, OR LASER MODULE TO A21HOUSING 6230-01-521-4821HolstersV70FL HOLSTER, POLYMER, BLACK, FITS HEAD UP OR DOWN: 6P, 9P, C2, C3, G2, G2Z, Z2, Z3 / TAIL DOWN ONLY: M2 6230-01-523-6437V70-TNFL HOLSTER, POLYMER, TAN, FITS HEAD UP OR DOWN: 6P, 9P, C2, C3, G2, G2Z, Z2, Z3 / TAIL DOWN ONLY: M2 8465-01-532-4188V71FL HOLSTER, POLYMER, BLACK, FITS HEAD UP OR DOWN: M3 / HEAD UP ONLY: M3T / HEAD DOWN ONLY: 9AN 6230-01-529-6425V72FL HOLSTER, POLYMER, BLACK, FITS HEAD UP OR DOWN: 8AX, 8NX, L7, L5 / HEAD DOWN ONLY: L5, M2, U2 6230-01-529-6424
SOUND SUPPRESSORS, ADAPTERS AND ACCESSORIESITEM NUMBERITEM DESCRIPTION NSNM4FA556-BK5.56 MM FAST-ATTACH™ HIGH ENDURANCE SOUND SUPPRESSOR1005-01-529-5377


Badbeams said:


> I`ll take a shot at it too. Let`s see...When CPF started (I believe I was member # 54...learned to type here...but not spell) they where the brightest for there size lights. This was because they used 123 batts...the only company that did...and great reflectors.
> 
> They made the cases thick and put heavy grooves on them...looked cool.
> 
> ...


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## Buffalohump (Nov 14, 2006)

Ummm... OK, but I think the research goes into introducing materials like titanium and magnesium for frames , and I would imagine they do a fair bit of R&D when developing the approx. 30 different variations of lenses that they offer. I'm no expert but I think its fair to describe Oakley as an innovative company... innovation requires R&D, not so? 




slvoid said:


> Not to poo-poo all over this... but Oakley and R&D don't exactly mix.. In fact, I can quite easily design a new frame in solidworks, export it to a die maker, and for about 10 grand, have a die made and have someone pop out frames at less than a buck a piece for 100k pieces, even better if it's a multi-cam multi part mold with like 50 shots that'll allow me to mix and match and make several million frames a year.
> 
> I just got a HDS EDC and the quality and design put into that seems far ahead of surefire, at a similar price point to boot.


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## Ilikeshinythings (Nov 14, 2006)

Wow! This thread seemed to really blow up quickly. 

It has taken me quite a while to read over all these posts, but as usual I have gained extensive knowledge regarding the topic. 

From what I have gathered, all you who own surefire flashlights seem to swear by them and their quality. I hope someday I will be able to at least hold one and see for myself what all the hype is about.

I honestly wonder if Surefire would have made it as a company if it weren't for the Candlepowerforums. We should get a discount!!

Thanks for all the info everyone-

Dan K


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## DM51 (Nov 14, 2006)

If Surefires are so great, why are so many CPF members putting theirs up for sale in the BST forum?


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## Ilikeshinythings (Nov 14, 2006)

^^They buy them to "use" them, not to own them. According to the moderator they have great resale value. I would probably do the same thing if I was short on cash...or wanted a sweet new updated light.


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## elgarak (Nov 14, 2006)

I cannot speak for other members... but I have, and likely never will, sell one of my Surefires. I would sell other brands, but not them. I have given one (KL4 on a E2 body) as a gift, since I felt I didn't need it at the time, and wanted to give a really high-quality gift. Nevertheless, within 2 weeks of not having the light I ordered a new L4...


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## Lobo (Nov 14, 2006)

I have a question, which governmental organization uses the Surefire? Imho even though Surefires seem to be quality lights, they seemed to be highly overpriced also. But if so, why would miliary and such use it (when it comes to standard equipment they usually dont go for the best at any price but the best for the price)?


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## Danbo (Nov 14, 2006)

DM51 said:


> If Surefires are so great, why are so many CPF members putting theirs up for sale in the BST forum?



Simple answer. Flashlightaholics are typically equipped with addictive personalities. People with addictive personalities are constantly searching for newer toys. Usually, when you see a Surefire light for sale, it's because that person wants/needs money for a newer and fancier Surefire.


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## DM51 (Nov 14, 2006)

Most flashaholics have lots of different lights, but at least half the threads in the sales forum seem to be for Surefires. Doesn't that indicate that their owners are disappointed with them and would rather have something else?


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## Dark Mower (Nov 14, 2006)

I would think Surefires are on B/S/T because they can be B/S/T. Selling a cheap light is not worth the effort. It can always be bought or sold because the quality is dependable. People don’t ask questions to see if it is working. Seeing Surefires on B/S/T could mean there are a lot of Surefire lights in people’s hands that can be bought or sold again and again.


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## Pax et Lux (Nov 14, 2006)

By and large, people don't sell Minimags in the forums, and that doesn't make a Minimag better than a Surefire.

There will always be more people selling Surefires here on CPF, because there are more people here owning them than compared to the general public, so it's not a fair sample - also, it's not really worth the hassle of selling a cheaper light.


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## Ilikeshinythings (Nov 14, 2006)

Danbo said:


> Simple answer. Flashlightaholics are typically equipped with addictive personalities. People with addictive personalities are constantly searching for newer toys. Usually, when you see a Surefire light for sale, it's because that person wants/needs money for a newer and fancier Surefire.



lol, though it is funny to think about...it is probably very true. I imagine we are all very similar in that way. I wonder if you all talk like I do.


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## deranged_coder (Nov 14, 2006)

DM51 said:


> If Surefires are so great, why are so many CPF members putting theirs up for sale in the BST forum?



One reason is that people buy several different lights to try them all out, settle on one (or a few) and sell the rest. I've lost track of the number of times I've seen this scenario play out on the forums here.


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## rscanady (Nov 14, 2006)

Danbo said:


> Simple answer. Flashlightaholics are typically equipped with addictive personalities. People with addictive personalities are constantly searching for newer toys. Usually, when you see a Surefire light for sale, it's because that person wants/needs money for a newer and fancier Surefire.




That pretty much hits the nail on the head for me!

Ryan


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## Aepoc (Nov 14, 2006)

If you get the batteries from surefire they aren't that expensive

At the Gander Mt. close to me they have two 123's for five bucks... you can get them even cheaper online or even if you buy in bulk.

The surefire 123's are the cheapest 123's you'll find anywhere. I was away from home when mine dies so i had to get some from radioshack. Two 123's set me back over 16 bucks.


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## EVAN_TAD (Nov 15, 2006)

Ilikeshinythings said:


> Wow! This thread seemed to really blow up quickly.
> 
> It has taken me quite a while to read over all these posts, but as usual I have gained extensive knowledge regarding the topic.
> 
> ...



Surefire has been around well before the internet era.


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## lightemup (Nov 15, 2006)

I seem to remember (I just googled and found an article about it) reading that the US Army Tank-Automotive and Armaments Command initiated a contract for $5.5 million worth of Surefire M4's 

Disclaimer: I have no idea regarding the reliability of the information in link, http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/procurement_innovations/index.php?offset=40

But I remembered Surefire M4 and $5 Million - At least 15000 or 20,000 units.

I think I read it in a Defence Journal somewhere else...

And thats just a one off sale


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## Ilikeshinythings (Nov 15, 2006)

EVAN_TAD said:


> Surefire has been around well before the internet era.



Really??? This is news to me. How long has surefire been around?


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## lightemup (Nov 15, 2006)

Since the early 1980's I think


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## Buffalohump (Nov 15, 2006)

I can't recall the exact year that I bought it, but I have had my 6P for around 10 years now... and mine is an early model but I don't think it was among the first produced. 

I would say that Surefire products predates the Internet as we know it today.


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## beezaur (Nov 15, 2006)

History of SureFire:



> THE SUREFIRE STORY
> 
> SureFire is a story of what can be accomplished with light. The tale begins in 1969 when an engineer with a Ph.D. from Cal Tech decided the future lay in lasers. Dr. John Matthews founded the Newport Corporation to harness the power of the laser for industrial applications.
> 
> ...



From here: http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/pgrfnbr/60/sesent/00

Scott


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## bwaites (Nov 15, 2006)

Why do Surefires cost so much?

Because they are the best mass produced lights built, you can buy cheaper, but you can't buy better!

Put differently, "The sweetness of high quality lasts far longer than the sting of cost!"


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## RAF_Groundcrew (Nov 15, 2006)

DM51 said:


> _If Surefires are so great, why are so many CPF members putting theirs up for sale in the BST forum?_


Freedom of choice.... Seriously, I doubt whether many CPF members selling a SF light on B/S/T are selling their one and only Surefire light.

I keep buying more as I find more uses for them, I tend to leave them in jacket pockets, so I can just put on any of my jackets, and I know there will be a flashlight in it. I have one by my bed, one in my car, one for work, one for long range, a few spares, just in case....


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## strat1080 (Nov 15, 2006)

> Because they are the best mass produced lights built, you can buy cheaper, but you can't buy better!
> 
> Put differently, "The sweetness of high quality lasts far longer than the sting of cost!"



I think that sums it up pretty well. Surefires are simply the best mass produced lights available. They make sense from an engineering standpoint and will last forever. Sure you can get a $20 light that performs almost as well but when it fails, you will have wished you had a Surefire. LE and Military personnel don't like to take that risk and buy the best. What makes Surefire so awesome is reliability, performance, and convenience. Their flashlight designs are typically well thought out and function quite well even under the most extreme of circumstances. Sure you can get a SL Scorpion for cheaper than a SF 6P and get the same performance. When you're life is on the line however, you may end up wishing you had gone with the Surefire. They are simply lights that perform well and you can count on this performance time and time again.


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## NAW (Nov 15, 2006)

strat1080 said:


> What makes Surefire so awesome is reliability, performance, and convenience.


 
My U2 must have not been made by Surefire becuase it wasn't reliable, convinent, or had great performance. :laughing: 

Although I have a 9P. I like it. I find it to to be very simple and reliable. I just don't like the anodizing on the 9P. Whenver I set it down on a pavement the bezel gets dinged easily. I also dropped my U2 once (bezel down) and the bezel had huge dings in it. It looked like there were holes in it. It was only a 2 feet drop but I was surprised the damages it received.


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## Brighteyez (Nov 15, 2006)

Gosh, guess my life wasn't worth the proverbial plugged nickel. Guess that's why I only used Streamlight products.

While I would put the Scorpion more on a level that is comparable to the G2, I suppose you could argue for the Scorpion to be compared to the 6P based upon the MSRP of the two products, but I opted for the TL-2, but I guess that's not really comparble to a 6P?

While I've used Surefire products on a few occasions, I've never owned one, and never had the desire to own one. And quite honestly, after reading about some of the customer service experiences that people here have had with their Surefire warranties, I'm pretty much inclined to stick with Streamlight in my golden years since I know I can just take those down to the uniform store and they'll fix them on the spot, no waiting, no questions asked. 



strat1080 said:


> LE and Military personnel don't like to take that risk and buy the best.
> 
> Sure you can get a SL Scorpion for cheaper than a SF 6P and get the same performance.


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## Brighteyez (Nov 15, 2006)

I'm still trying to understand why people will shove out $300 for a Kroma. Or even prepay whatever they did for the mil-spec version that may not be available until the troops are home from the Middle East. The output is only appears to be so-so, nothing that is exceptional for a Lux III. 



NAW said:


> My U2 must have not been made by Surefire becuase it wasn't reliable, convinent, or had great performance. :laughing:


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## beezaur (Nov 15, 2006)

Brighteyez,

The Kroma Milspecs were prepaid based on SureFire saying they would be in around the first of June or something. But they are pretty cool lights. I consider it be worth the money. The wait is something nobody thought would happen, but that is life.

As for a comparison between SureFire 6P/G2 and various Streamlights, the streamlights just aren't as reliable. The 6P/G2 lights have almost nothing to break, really just the bulb.

Other SureFires, like the U2, L4, or basically anything with certain clickies, are not lights that you would want to bet your life on. SureFire might even tell you the same thing. In direct comparison, for example weapon-mounted lights, SureFires fare quite a lot better than Streamlights. There are reports of training where the only guns still running at the end had SureFires mounted.

All flashlights can and do fail. Bulbs break or explode, LEDs die, batteries fail, etc. If you find yourself betting your life on a single flashlight, something is wrong with that picture. You need two or more, where having light is essential.

Streamlights are really good lights. There is nothing wrong with using them in critical applications. I use a Streamlight sometimes in structural firefighting.

Scott


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## 42km (Nov 15, 2006)

beezaur said:


> You need two or more, where having light is essential.


 
As the saying goes: "One is none and two is one."

42km


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## Brighteyez (Nov 15, 2006)

I don't really have to be concerned about a reliable flashlight these days, at least not one that find it necessary to risk my life upon, but my point was that Surefire products are not the only reliable industrial products out there, and there are many many law enforcement agencies in this country that do not supply or use Surefire products, in fact, more that don't than those that might. There are, however a number of municipalities that do use the Streamlight products as standard equipment in their public safety vehicles (both police and fire/rescue). To believe that a Surefire product is the only product that can be relied upon for public safety usage is just ludicrous, as it would be to think that Streamlight is any more reliable (and then there are the agencies that use Mag Chargers.)

And maybe it's a sign of the times, maybe kids spend too much time in front of the computer/TV, who knows, but I grew up in a generation that didn't have lights mounted to their firearms  Come to think of it, no laser sights either. And look at all the damage and dead people who have been the product of all those years 

As far as the Kroma is concerned, sorry, I just don't see $300 worth there, but I'm sure others do. Come to think of it, I'm almost inclined to say that I'd prefer a 3AA MiniMag LED, but I'm sure that would irritate a few people.




beezaur said:


> Brighteyez,
> 
> The Kroma Milspecs were prepaid based on SureFire saying they would be in around the first of June or something. But they are pretty cool lights. I consider it be worth the money. The wait is something nobody thought would happen, but that is life.
> 
> ...


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## greenLED (Nov 15, 2006)

beezaur said:


> I consider it be worth the money.


AH! And here is an important point. How we perceive the value of a light (or any object). Whether that's based on marketing, personal experience, personal needs, or whatever, it's up to an individual to decide whether a certain light is worth the asking price. For some people, paying $250 or more for a light is perfectly OK; for others $35 is too much. CPF certainly shifted that scale for me.

When I first joined CPF, I found it really hard to spend $100 or so on an Arc LS. I truly thought people buying those lights were _nuts_! $100 for a light? No-way-Ho-sey! Not for me! ...or so I thought... After owning several Arc LS's, I think they were actually _cheap _for what they offered (and still do).

I waited a long time to get a SF; now I have several. In my mind, they are worth every penny. Sure, I also have "lower end" lights that can perform the same functions, but there is something that tickles my pleasure centers when I use my SF's. I get the same kind of feeling with my Arc's.

Too much money? Nah!!! (I guess I must be one of those nuts.)


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## strat1080 (Nov 16, 2006)

I believe that for serious use anything else is a risk. Streamlight Stingers have the potential to have their bulb pop out and get steck in the reflector. If this happens you're SOL. This can't happen with a Surefire. Magchargers, well are simply too big to be carried conveniently.

I think weapons wounted lights and lasers do a great service to our troops. Sure there have been wars without all this technology but look at the advantage it provides to the troops that use them. The troops that have all the new technology experience less casualties in proportion to enemy casualties. This can also reduce civilian casualties. Are you trying to say that soldiers who rely on weapons mounted lights are simply kids that watch too much TV? 

My brother recently came back from Iraq and all the troops that have been there for awhile recommended that he only bring a Surefire for serious lighting tasks. They said all other lights will let you down. This is actual experience talking here. There is actually a thread out there somewhere about the SL Scorpion failing miserably in Iraq. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of SWAT personnel will only be using Surefires. Sure most LE are probably using Streamlight, but that is because they are cheaper not because they are as good or better than Surefire. There is no question what would be more reliable between a SL Stinger or SF 8NX. 



> To believe that a Surefire product is the only product that can be relied upon for public safety usage is just ludicrous, as it would be to think that Streamlight is any more reliable (and then there are the agencies that use Mag Chargers.)
> 
> And maybe it's a sign of the times, maybe kids spend too much time in front of the computer/TV, who knows, but I grew up in a generation that didn't have lights mounted to their firearms  Come to think of it, no laser sights either. And look at all the damage and dead people who have been the product of all those years


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## leukos (Nov 16, 2006)

Walmart appeals to certain groups of consumers, Surefire appeals to others....


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## Monocrom (Nov 16, 2006)

beezaur said:


> As for a comparison between SureFire 6P/G2 and various Streamlights, the streamlights just aren't as reliable.


 
As much as I like my C2, its tailcap switch is a bit stiff. That stiffness has caused it to, on a few occassions, not turn on when pressed. Most of the time I EDC my Streamlight TL-2 LED. Been carrying it for quite awhile now. I would definitely use the word "reliable" in describing it.


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## OverLord1 (Nov 16, 2006)

At current count I have 8 surefire lights with my most current purchase being a non-milspec Kroma. To me, Surefire's are the best made, most reliable lights available, period. Although some people have had problems with Surefire warranty (mostly backorders and delayed shipments) I would venture to guess that those people are in the very small minority. In my own experience I have received nothing short of extraordinary service from Surefire. I have had numerous parts (bulbs, lanyard rings, lanyards, batteries, etc.) shipped to me FREE after an email requesting assistance or a phone call. To date, I have not paid a penny to use any of my Surefires other than batteries, of course. The only time I had a problem with a Surefire was an older style L1 that had a problem with the LED being off-center and producing an odd-shaped beam. I sent the light to Surefire and to my surprise received a brand new L1 in less than two weeks time, no questions asked. It is becoming rare these days to find an American made product that is the benchmark in its field. I will gladly pay a premium for Surefire's level of customer service and superb products. 

With regards to the Kroma, imho it is certainly worth $300. However if one purchases the light from one of the respected dealers here on CPF as I did it will be SIGNIFICANTLY less than $300. It is an extremely well made and versatile light and if you can take advantage of all it has to offer their is no single light in the market that can compete with it.


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## carrot (Nov 16, 2006)

I think Surefires are expensive, overpriced, and perhaps to some extent overrated. But do I find them worth the money? Heck yes.


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## TORCH_BOY (Nov 16, 2006)

lightUup said:


> Surefires are expensive because they're designed for rich people. Unfortunetly, I'm not rich.



I totally agree
Just like Porsche motor cars


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## Reaper (Nov 16, 2006)

Only have one surefire product - a 6P bought almost when they first came out. It's been through the proverbial grinder you might say. Dings, dents, scratches and the finish almost half gone. In all this time, I think I've only replaced the bulbs 3 times . It started out life as the rechargeable model but now it's just on primaries. This is the only Surefire light I have and I'm not getting rid of it cause it's solid, built like a tank and always work. It was worth the money I paid for it. I also just ordered a 3 watt drop-in for it.


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## Coop (Nov 16, 2006)

the question is not 'Why do Surefires cost so much?'

but 'Why do I not have enough money to afford Surefires?'


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## firefly99 (Nov 16, 2006)

carrot said:


> I think Surefires are expensive, overpriced, and perhaps to some extent overrated. But do I find them worth the money? Heck yes.


 Totally agreed.



lightUup said:


> Surefires are expensive because they're designed for rich people.


I disagreed that is for rich people. 

Surefire is expensive because it is designed for people for whom failure is not an option. These are the people who will pay any price for a reliable tool that is designed to reduce the risk of failure to a minimum. Beam characteristics do not meant much to this group of people but it is very important to armchair flashlight users here on CPF.

For most of us here on CPF, including myself, flashlights is just a hobby. Any inexpensive light would be sufficient for our needs. We had the choice not to pay the out of this world price for Surefire and settle for a lesser light. But we are stupid enough not to take the sensible option.

My 2 cents.


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## JNewell (Nov 16, 2006)

firefly99 said:


> I disagreed that is for rich people.
> 
> Surefire is expensive because it is designed for people for whom failure is not an option.


 
Totally true. When Laser Products began selling flashlights, the buyers were people like cops who couldn't afford not to have a reliable high performance light. Hardly the megabucks hobby set, and well before the World Wide Web.


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## Brighteyez (Nov 16, 2006)

So are the members here who make posts about their Surefire products failing, some sort of anomaly? Or is it the result of abuse or unauthorized modifications? Just seems kind of odd to hear of people paying hundreds of dollars for a flashlight that arrives DOA or soon after they receive it, if it's a light that is that is designed or usage where "failure is not an option"

Oddly enough, from what I understand, the US military is still issuing the angled 2D flashlight with a red lens as the standard issue these days. Seem to remember that they actually worked on occasion  



firefly99 said:


> Surefire is expensive because it is designed for people for whom failure is not an option.


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## deranged_coder (Nov 16, 2006)

Brighteyez said:


> So are the members here who make posts about their Surefire products failing, some sort of anomaly?



Without being privy to the total number of Surefire products out there and how many of that total have failed in normal usage, anything we post would just be pure speculation.

As an analogy, I work for a software company. We have newsgroups where people can post feedback to the development team, report bugs, interact with other users, etc. In many ways, it would be similar to CPF.

A lot of the newsgroup messages I see are from people who need help with something. That is, people often post because something is not working for them. It is not often that people post to say that everything is working great and they are satisfied. This can skews perceptions considerably. As a hypothetical example, let us pretend that a total of 1000 users purchased software. From that total number, 5 users encountered problems and decided to post on the newsgroups to complain about it and find a solution. 95 other users thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread and decided to join the newsgroup community to spread the news and interact with their fellow users. Another 10 users were dissatisfied with the product and decided to simply contact the vendor directly to ask for a refund. The remaining 890 users were satisfied with the product but did not bother to join the newsgroups. So if you just took the newsgroup users and assumed that it was a representative sample of the total user base, you would judge that 5 out of 100 users were dissatisfied; 5%. However, if you took the total numbers of the user base, it would be 15 dissatisfied users out of 1000; 1.5%.

I am not saying the number of reports on CPF of Surefire products failing is an anomaly or not. I am saying that without being privy to the full picture, we are just speculating and there is a good chance that the picture we currently have is horribly skewed.


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## Ilikeshinythings (Nov 16, 2006)

I don't shop for flashlights at walmart...but I have an Inova (60 bucks), a maglite (20 bucks), a TWOK lithium mag I made myself (like 70 bucks) AND a streamlight propoly 4AA Luxeon on the way (30)....and that collection STILL doesn't add up to a surefire!

If you really wanna compare it to cars, here:

Inovaorsche 911S
Maglite:Ford SVT focus
TWOK lithium:Tricked out Subie STi w/450 HP
SL 4AA Lux:Acrua RL

You're a retard if you would give up those last 4 cars for one Ferrari 360 Modena.


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## dimlight (Nov 16, 2006)

i don't think they pay their people a ton of money,because when i called about something they didn't know and had to find out. they called back a week later.and other people have said the samething. it's the gov. money,it makes them feel they are the best and should be paid that way


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## beezaur (Nov 16, 2006)

Brighteyez said:


> So are the members here who make posts about their Surefire products failing, some sort of anomaly? . . .



Not all SureFire flashlights are designed for ultra-reliability. Some are consumer flashlights.

Just because a bunch of Z57 clickies failed doesn't mean my SW02 clicky will.

Scott


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## firefly99 (Nov 17, 2006)

Brighteyez said:


> So are the members here who make posts about their Surefire products failing, some sort of anomaly? Or is it the result of abuse or unauthorized modifications? Just seems kind of odd to hear of people paying hundreds of dollars for a flashlight that arrives DOA or soon after they receive it


I do find it odd and uncharacteristics for an expensive tool to DOA or soon after. It is extremely frustrating to spend our hard earn money and wait days for the light arrive, only to find it DOA. 
But I am not aware of any CPF members who had die just because their $$$ lights DOA or soon after they receive it. Do you know of anyone?

I just hope this type of incident does not happan to those in the sandbox.

Surefire flashlights are designed for SWAT/LEO people. Beam anomaly is not consider a defect by intended users and Surefire. The lights were never designed with civilian CPF user requirements in mind, yet armchair flashlight users like us posting here ranting about the imperfect beam just because we paid $$$ for it. It is just the light did not meet your high expectations.

A lot of CPF members like to do unauthorized modifications, such as breaking apart a sealed bezel to change components, use rechargeable batteries in SF lights when Surefire specify the use of primary CR123 cells, using cheap cell w/o PTS. Such activities may caused premature failures.


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## shao.fu.tzer (Nov 17, 2006)

Surefire makes some damn fine equipment, if not the best lights on the market. I just dropped $120 for a Surefire M69 frontend for my 870 Magnum Express and it rocks the party! It's got a Choate folding stock and I bought a discounted Streamlight M-5 for $50 and mounted on the bottom along with a UTG front pistol grip that holds 3 extra CR123A batteries - vibration-free. Combined with and 8 shell mag and a sling along with some 12 gauge 2 3/4" 00 12 pellet buck at 1280FPS and .....ME RIKEY!!!!


Shao


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 17, 2006)

Bought another Surefire a couple of weeks ago. Can't buy enought of them. 

Bill


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## x2x3x2 (Nov 17, 2006)

i dont think u can use the term "u get what u pay for" with surefires.
for the premium price, beam quality still arent costant in terms of tint and beam quality (donuts on their lux v leds).

people still get them with faulty switches n electronics which probably shouldnt happen with a brand new light which has apparently been thru such great r&d and production standards. instead we have to rely on their "lifetime warranty" but will take weeks to get replaced. other lights can be bought at lower price, so i see no difference by buying more of other cheaper lights, so if one does become faulty u got another ready at hand.

i think people still buy surefires regardless is cos of marketing and brand name which surefire has skillfully built up. same reason y people buy other branded stuff i suppose.


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## Telkin (Nov 17, 2006)

Going back to the original question, why do surefires cost so much? 

Really it's just market forces. There is a very sustainable market out there for Surefire Products. It's really not important for us to be here and debate and try to convince each other that Surefire products are worth it or there are better alternatives out there. 

We each have our own preferences. The Military thinks it's worth it to invest in Surefire products and many CPFers here do as well. Surefire's cost what people are willing to pay. They don't expect to make a light that every single person is willing to buy, nor do they expect to convert everyone with the surefire difference. They've built up a sustainable brand and market and to that market, Surefire's are worth it. It works like every other product out there. 

If you love Surefires and you think the prices are worth it then buy more, if not then select a different product. I have many Surefires and they are simply amazing lights.


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## rscanady (Nov 17, 2006)

Ilikeshinythings said:


> I don't shop for flashlights at walmart...but I have an Inova (60 bucks), a maglite (20 bucks), a TWOK lithium mag I made myself (like 70 bucks) AND a streamlight propoly 4AA Luxeon on the way (30)....and that collection STILL doesn't add up to a surefire!



Lets see that is $180, hmm looks like you could buy a Surefire after all. Hell you could get :


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As a matter of fact you get get two or three, even 4 lights from Surefire.


Ryan


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## Skyssx (Nov 17, 2006)

I own 3 SF lights and prior to today I was unaware that anyone collected flashlights or that there was such an enormous modification scene.

I am in the Army and I got a surefire Z2 in '03 because it was at the store on-post, I had heard a few things about them and it was the beefiest thing running. Other options at the time were the iNova X5, a crook-neck army light or a mini-mag. That light has never failed to dissapoint, judging by responses in this thread, many of you would be horrified at its condition. It has been USED! After purchasing it, many people were apalled at the price I paid. The Z2 was sent sailing through the air across the hangar time and again to demonstrate its durability. After a tour in Iraq, two train ups for deployment and two rotations at national training centers, I am still using the same P60 bulb that came in the light. It is small, simple and works extremely well. I feel the aluminum bodied lights are overpriced and reccomend to soldiers looking for a light to look at the G2 for $36.

I purchased a 9AN Commander while IN Iraq because I was sick of burning through a pair of 123A cells every other day. After waiting months for the backorder to clear I got my light. Not only did it light up the ENTIRE plane during pre-flight, but it was rechargeable and had a low light setting for entering faults to a log book. I dropped it once or twice while getting used to the heft and within the first week the main bulb exploded, nicking the reflector. The backorder was still in effect so while I did recieve a brand new head and bulb assembly, it took another two months. In apology, SF send me two cases of 123A cells for the price of one. I've been using the same bulb since but I am always leery of dropping it. As such I only use it for admin type duties, set-up of a launch site, pre-flight of aircraft. It gets parked in the maintenance office when i'm not doing something and the Z2 is still on my hip. It is huge, bright, adaptable, of shoddy design and ridiculously expensive.

My 3rd SF light is a 2 cell M series weaponlight with a thumbscrew 1913 rail mount and a shock isolated P60 lamp assembly. It is 100% durable, adaptable, cool looking and way, WAY too expensive. Luckily it was gifted to me. Under no circumstances would I have purchased this light. I was strongly leaning towards a similar pentagon light. In all reality, this light is a 6P with different threads, a bit of foam in the bezel and two flanges which secure to the weapon. It lists for $450 in kit form. A 1-cell tube and 9v lamp assembly lists for $170 to upgrade the light. While this light is extremely well built and does what it needs to, it is unbelievably expensive and not at all a value in light of the availible competition. I am still very glad to have it.

In summary, why *I* bought SF lights:
1:I needed ONE good light.
2:I needed to stop buying batteries.
3:Weapon lights are neat.

There is NO way I am shelling out the cash for the new LED models when my Z2 has gone 3+ years without needing a new bulb. Most of the new models seem to be getting away from the simple, durable and effective roots.

G2 body + classic shock bezel + tape switch + VLTOR mount == $130 SF weaponlight in case anyone is in the market.

Edit to add: My friend showed me the "Best" episode of Penn & Teller's 3rd season of Bullshit. It really opened my eyes to my own habits, I reccomend everyone here watch it.


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## ringzero (Nov 17, 2006)

firefly99 said:


> Surefire is expensive because it is designed for people for whom failure is not an option. These are the people who will pay any price for a reliable tool that is designed to reduce the risk of failure to a minimum.



If Surefires are designed to reduce the risk of failure to a minimum, then some of them are indeed poorly designed.

After paying 200 to 300 bucks for a flashlight with a click switch, the buyer has a reasonable expectation that clicking the switch will turn the light on and off. Alas, with some Surefire models, this is not always the case, even with a brand new light.

Further, it is expected that the switch will turn the light on and off a reasonable number of times before failing. Click switches in common, inexpensive consumer products commonly last for tens-of-thousands to hundreds-of-thousands of cycles.

For all the money Surfire supposedly spends on Research and Development, it would seem they could develop a reliable click switch. Maybe Surefire should just give up and pay license fees to use Mag's switch design.


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## strat1080 (Nov 17, 2006)

I don't really think any of the Surefire models with click switches were designed for LE or Military applications. They were designed for convenience in a civilian market. The lights that are heavily marketed to Military and LE are usually combat lights and weapons-mounted lights. These from my experience have been nearly indestructible. The U2 at $280 is probably way above bidding price for a military contract. It might also be a confusing light to operate in tactical situations. The E1 and E2 series don't really throw enough for serious LE and Military applications. I think these products were designed more for civilian applications and general use. While the U2 may have its problems, its the only light of its kind. Streamlight probably won't even dare to make something like it.


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## tron3 (Nov 17, 2006)

ANW said:


> Yeah the prices for cr123's are nuts in most stores, even the the surefire ones, oh well all good things come with an expensive price tag attached.


 
I don't beleive there is enough competition in the CR123 market to make the prices come down. Not to mention the Lithium is what makes them pricey.

For crying out loud, you can buy Radio Shack and Walgreen battery brands. I know for a FACT that a 4 pack of RS AA's are only about 0.55 store cost! That means they are made for less than that! If you ask me, there is no such thing cheap batteries. Everyone gets a ridiculess profit on them.

However, more competition in the cr123 market could drive prices down. Remember, supply and demand.


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## Monocrom (Nov 17, 2006)

strat1080 said:


> While the U2 may have its problems, its the only light of its kind. Streamlight probably won't even dare to make something like it.


 
Considering the staggering number of CPFers who have had problems with their U2s, I hope Streamlight doesn't dare to make something like it!

But generally, Surefires are great. I have an L4, a C2, and am currently saving up for an 8NX Commander.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After making this post, I found an Inova T4 at a good price. Couldn't pass it up. Won't be getting the 8NX, but I still love Surefire products.


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## Ilikeshinythings (Nov 17, 2006)

I'de say all my questions have been answered! Thanks a bunch everyone. Although I am still not convinced I would ever pay as much as they want for a surefire, I can understand why some of you would!


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## strat1080 (Nov 17, 2006)

> I'de say all my questions have been answered! Thanks a bunch everyone. Although I am still not convinced I would ever pay as much as they want for a surefire, I can understand why some of you would!


 Some of their lights aren't terribly priced. Try a G2 and see what you think of it. You can't go wrong with a 6P or 9P either. I definitely consider a SF 6P to be superior to the equivalent Streamlight models in terms of reliability. There are lots of stories floating out there about Scorpion bulbs popping into the reflector. You're literally SOL in this situation. 

Streamlight makes good lights but I trust Surefires more. Some Surefire models need to get some bugs worked out but the majority of their products are simply the best you can get. Their rechargable models are excellent. I consider the 8NX to be an excellent light and not terribly expensive. Sure it costs more than a SL Stinger but the design is so much better. The charger is better as well. Sometimes you just have to try something to understand it. My SF 9N is a good example. Sure a lamp module costs $34 but the beam is absolutely perfect in every way. It comes frosted from the factory to produce a perfect even beam with no artifacts whatsoever. This light is the light that convinced my wife why a Surefire is worth the price.


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## Ilikeshinythings (Nov 17, 2006)

^^There is no chance i'll ever convince my girlfriend that any flashlight is worth the money if it doesn't come from target for 2.99!

The only incandescent light I own is a [email protected] 4D. It's a good light for the job. I wouldn't mind a Magcharger though. What is a surefire equivalent to a magcharger? Streamlight? How much should I expect to pay?


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## Skyssx (Nov 17, 2006)

Ilikeshinythings said:


> ^^There is no chance i'll ever convince my girlfriend that any flashlight is worth the money if it doesn't come from target for 2.99!
> 
> The only incandescent light I own is a [email protected] 4D. It's a good light for the job. I wouldn't mind a Magcharger though. What is a surefire equivalent to a magcharger? Streamlight? How much should I expect to pay?



Surefire 8NX is their most inexpensive rechargeable. It'll run around $150 with two batteries and a charger.
The other option would be to get a G2 for $36 and a rechargable kit for $90. Then you would have the option of going with 2x 123A cells for compact size or a regharable stick for saving money.


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## strat1080 (Nov 17, 2006)

> The only incandescent light I own is a [email protected] 4D. It's a good light for the job. I wouldn't mind a Magcharger though. What is a surefire equivalent to a magcharger? Streamlight? How much should I expect to pay?


 

The Magcharger is a pretty nice light and much better than the regular Maglites. It is pretty big and heavy though. Expect to pay about $80-90 for a Magcharger with charger. A SL Stinger should be about the same or slightly more. The SF 8NX is Surfire's cheapest model at about $151 with charger and battery. It is a much better design. You can charge batteries externally so that you can keep extras. The charger is a smart charger that charges in about 2.5hrs. The most equivalent rechargable in the brightness category to the Magcharger would be the SF 9AN, which is about $250 with the charger and battery. Keep in mind that it is much smaller and lighter and has a much more durable finish than the Magcharger. Its beam quality is not even comparable to the Magcharger. It has a low light mode and a flawless high beam. I have the discontinued SF 9N which is the same thing except the body is slightly different and it doesn't have a lock-out tailcap. 

While the Magcharger is extremely bright and relatively cheap compared to other rechargables, it uses a smooth reflector. This results in poor beam quality compared to a Surefire. For serious lighting task you will simply see things more clearly with a Surefire. The Magcharger will either have a narrow spot or have a hole in the middle of the beam. If I were to buy a new rechargable at full price I would probably get the 8NX. Its nearly as bright as the Magcharger, yet much smaller and lighter. I paid $15 for a Surefire 9N and got basically one of the best rechargable flashlights on the market. I got a free battery from Surefire after I got a defective lamp assembly. If you look around, Surefires aren't all that expensive. 

While Surefires seem expensive keep in mind that a small 6P has more output than your 4D Maglite. It is 1/3 as long and weighs 1/6 as much as a 4D Maglite. This convenience doesn't come cheap. With a 4D Maglite you are stuck with bright light for 1 hour followed by 9-10hrs of poor output and a yellow beam. Its kind of a drag to haul around 4 D-cell batteries for such low output. The lithium batteries that Surefire lights use are designed for high drain devices and put-out a flat discharge. They run brightly for 1hr and then die. They are also not affected by weather like alkaline batteries are. You can use your Surefire at -0 temperatures with no problem.


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## Ilikeshinythings (Nov 17, 2006)

Thanks for the input once again! I will use my SL propoly 4AA for a while, but I will probably eventually buy a larger incandescent SL or SF for other purposes.


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## Greenlead (Nov 17, 2006)

I just bought an SC1 Spares Carrier direct from Surefire. I don't know if I will ever buy from their website again. 

I got it today, and it is basically nothing but a little molded piece of plastic with an o-ring and a pretty lanyard (who actually carries their spares carrier?). How exciting, totally worth $17.00 plus $4.99 shipping and the two weeks to get it via UPS (back-ordered). I expected better than that; IMO they should've at least ate the cost of shipping.

Surefire has a solid reputation and products; they charge what they can convince people to pay.


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## Brighteyez (Nov 17, 2006)

Given how Surefire markets their products as being oriented towards governmental and military usage, and how they often use that as a reason for not attending to commercial civilian orders, I found a hilarious statement on their web site with regards to individual orders from military personnel and U.S. foriegn missions.




Surefire Web Site said:


> Military
> SureFire currently cannot ship to APO/FPO addresses. We are working to resolve this issue. Thank you for your patience.



_"We are working to resolve this issue."_

I can't help but picture some poor soul from Surefire's staff roaming the streets of Fountain Valley, looking for a US Postal Service branch office


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## Coop (Nov 17, 2006)

cannot ship to?, more like: can't be arsed to ship to...

If they cannot, they are about as bright as a MN01 bulb (which would indicate an IQ equal to the MSRP of that same bulb :laughing: ) Everyone who can take 5 minutes of time to browse www.usps.com can ship to APO/FPO addresses....


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 17, 2006)

Greenled, shop around. There are websites that do not charge any shipping on any size Surefire order I must admit that I do not order from Surefire.com, and shop around for best prices. Check out the sponsors here on CPF. Also, check out BST for good deals on Surefire products.

Bill


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## NAW (Nov 17, 2006)

strat1080 said:


> If I were to buy a new rechargable at full price I would probably get the 8NX. Its nearly as bright as the Magcharger, yet much smaller and lighter.


 
Interesting... I have a magcharger and it kills my 200 lumen Surefire in overall brightness and throwing capabilities. 

Then there is the easy to install Wa1160 bulb for the magcharger. I think the only flashlights from Surefire that can compare to the WA 1160 in brightness would be the M6, and a few others.


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## Greenlead (Nov 18, 2006)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Greenled, shop around. There are websites that do not charge any shipping on any size Surefire order I must admit that I do not order from Surefire.com, and shop around for best prices. Check out the sponsors here on CPF. Also, check out BST for good deals on Surefire products.
> 
> Bill


Actually, there is a local store operated by a retired police officer that I would rather give my business to. The prices are a bit higher than what I can get online, but I know I can count on him for help.

I'll be using him as much as possible now, except for batteries. He's selling two packs of CR123 for ~ $5, but I don't think the prices are set by him. In fact, when I bought my G2 from him, he even told me to buy the batteries online. He's a good guy, and I would refer customers to him any day of the week.

I bought it from the Surefire site because I thought I would save money, but I've learned my lesson. 

Oh, and by the way, there is a user here called "greenled". I'm not in anyway related to him, my name is pure coincidence (think "Star Wars").


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## Ilikeshinythings (Nov 21, 2006)

NAW said:


> Interesting... I have a magcharger and it kills my 200 lumen Surefire in overall brightness and throwing capabilities.
> 
> Then there is the easy to install Wa1160 bulb for the magcharger. I think the only flashlights from Surefire that can compare to the WA 1160 in brightness would be the M6, and a few others.



So if I got a magcharger and installed a wa1160 bulb I would have a beastly thrower on all fronts? Would a LS reflector help with the crappy beamshot this thing makes? I read it will melt the bipin connector so a piece of mica is important, or a ceramic holder but I can't seem to find one anywhere. Aye..I took this thread straight off topic. Sorry folks!

So with the afformentioned, the magcharger is more powerful than the majority of the surefire lights for quite a bit cheaper, correct? If that's the case, can I buy a rechargeable streamlight (can't remember the comparable model) and drop the bipin 1160 bulb in there as well? will that be as powerful?


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## seery (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: Why do Surefires cost so much? THEY DON'T!!!*

Unless one makes $5/hour, they are not expensive. 

In fact, based on what SF offers in a light, they are an absolute bargain.

Admit it, life without SF would just plain suck!


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## GarageBoy (Dec 30, 2006)

Certain Surefires are worth the money in their feature set to me. It all depends on what you need. I don't need the TIR beam of the Kroma, or the 2 other sets of LEDS (hell, a chinese company probably did selectable LED colors a long time ago) but to someone who wants it, its gonna be worth it to them.


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## ringzero (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Why do Surefires cost so much? THEY DON'T!!!*



seery said:


> Unless one makes $5/hour, they are not expensive...



Surefire lights ARE expensive, when compared to their competitor's prices.



seery said:


> In fact, based on what SF offers in a light, they are an absolute bargain...



I beg to differ. SF offers the U2 for well over 200 bucks, which wouldn't be a bargain even if the U2 was completely reliable - which it isn't. Few SF lights offer great value for their price, and none of them are really bargains.



seery said:


> Admit it, life without SF would just plain suck!



I've owned exactly two Surefires, an L1 and a G2.

Traded the L1 away for a used ultra-light tarp and some titanium stakes. It was a nice light, but overpriced. I don't really miss it.

Still have a G2, which is a decent light for a reasonable price. Good to keep in car for emergencies, but almost never used. If it was stolen, I wouldn't replace it, and life wouldn't suck!


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## Atomic_Chicken (Dec 30, 2006)

Greetings!

Uhhh.... because they're worth it?

Best wishes,
Bawko


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## planex (Dec 30, 2006)

They cost so much because they have to pay for that very nice catalog they give away for free :rock:


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## Presumed_Lost (Dec 31, 2006)

I think I'm going to post twice here..

It's been years since I spent much time on this forum, and what I want to say first is... congratulations.

Part of the reason that it's been years is that there was a time when not only would this subject have resulted in a nasty flamefest (I was hesitant to even open the thread), but the original poster would have been verbally slammed just for RAISING THE QUESTION. 

Now, I see page after page of amazingly civil, dispassionate discourse. Ok, there are still those who simply state their beliefs/"facts" without sharing (or, apparently, needing) any supporting evidence, but there alway are.

Really. Congratulations. It seems this form is now a much more mature, civil place, much more conducive to sharing and learning. I'm very pleasantly surprised.


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## Valpo Hawkeye (Dec 31, 2006)

*Re: Why do Surefires cost so much? THEY DON'T!!!*



seery said:


> Unless one makes $5/hour, they are not expensive.
> 
> In fact, based on what SF offers in a light, they are an absolute bargain.
> 
> Admit it, life without SF would just plain suck!



My hourly rate of pay is at $20 even, and I get a few hours of OT a week. That means I make over 4 times what you state. FWIW, I consider SureFires to be very expensive. However, seeing as how I own four of them and soon to be five, I do consider them to be worth it. 

I'll break it down for all the tradesman out there. I just dropped $700 for the Milwaukee 28v 4-tool set. I already have the 18v set and it has served me well. However, I needed batteries that could charge in the cold. How I could get a Craftsman set with similar number for about $500 less. However, those tools are junk and aren't even worth the $200 they're asking. I bought the Milwaukee kit, at a premium, because I knew it would do all that I asked of it and would do it better than the other kits on the market. 

SureFires are the same way. They're expensive... yes. But they do their job better than their inexpensive counterparts (for the most part, as with anything there are exceptions).


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## carrot (Dec 31, 2006)

Welcome back, Presumed_Lost! Hope you stay awhile. 

My opinion, if I forgot to express it earlier: Surefires are expensive because people will buy at their outrageous prices. Do I think it's worth my money? Yes, but there are better values. I buy Surefire because I enjoy the design of the product, because they offer things that other companies do not (think the A2, for instance).


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## whippoorwill (Dec 31, 2006)

Why do Surefires and divorces cost so much? Because they are worth it!!!!!


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## tebore (Dec 31, 2006)

whippoorwill said:


> Why do Surefires and divorces cost so much? Because they are worth it!!!!!


 
:lolsign:


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## cheapo (Dec 31, 2006)

well, with surefires, you hardly have to worry about quality issues... and if you do, its usually right out of the box... you hardly see people break their surefires- they are TOUGH.

-david


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## Presumed_Lost (Dec 31, 2006)

Seems to me that there are two questions here. One is the explicit "why?", and the other is the implicit "is it justified?".

As for "why?", it's mostly historical. I'm old enough to remember when there were no good flashlights, period, at least in the public consciousness. If you were going backpacking, camping, sailing, or otherwise in harm's way, your choices were lousy dimestore/drugstore flashlights or the army L-head, period. Nobody seemed to care at all about quality, only price. This may have been because any flashlight you bought was PROBABLY going to be destroyed by leaking batteries, and none of those held a charge for more than several weeks at best.

Then alkalines came along, things got better, and then Mag-Lite entered the public consciousness. When cells were much less likely to leak, spending more for a better flashlight started to make some sense. Mag made a comparatively excellent product, for some time it was the best you could get, and is still pretty much riding on their reputation from that period.

SureFire made it's place in the public consciousness (insofar as they have one) by making a better product than Mag. Smaller, lighter, higher tech, more light, more durable. In the process, they seem to have established that the effective price ceiling had not been reached, or even approached, by Mag.

As for "is it justified":

IMHO, a lot of the discourse comes down to the fact that there are two different ways, often incompatible, of estimating the "value" of an object. Most of us use both at different times, for different objects, for our own reasons:

1. An estimate of a reasonable cost of manufacture (including R&D and QC) plus a reasonable markup.

2. "Supply and demand", "what it will bring", "what the market will bear", or the value of what might reasonably be expected to depend on the object.

By the FIRST criteria, a lot of people who consider buying SF (including myself, I own 3) suspect we're paying too much, for what it is.

By the SECOND criteria, SF fares much better... until they make a misstep like the U2 and clicky issues, enough of which could cost them considerable market share.

The market is (slowly) self-correcting. Eventually SF will be usurped, either because their quality will decline and so will their reputation, or because someone else will come up with a significantly better product. In order for the competition to do this, they have to quit trying to match SF at a lower price point, and focus on coming up with something better. If they do that AND meet criteria 1 (reasonable mark-up over cost), and it's true that SF lights are priced significantly above criteria 1, the it will be no contest, even if the new light costs more overall.

Personally, I own three SFs, but right at the moment I'd be hard-pressed to put my hand on two of them, and the third lives on a desk. For years, my EDC (when I bother) has been what was then called (I think) a Nuwai Quantum 3, now seems to be a TM-303X. 

I personally have no routine, day-to-day use for a flashlight. Any use I have is by definition unexpected. For me, if it doesn't provide a lot of value for it's bulk and weight, I'll end up not carrying it, which means not having one when I need it. As with PDAs, notebook computers, carry firearms, EDC knives and a lot of other things, if it's just heavy or bulky enough to make me slightly reluctant to have it on my person, it won't be there when I need it. The closest I came with SF was an L4 head on an E1, and it was still bigger, heavier, and (IMHO) less useful most of the time. When I walked out the door, the Nuwai got taken and the SFs right next to it got left. 

Exception was when work demanded that I spend a couple of hours a day commuting on the DC subway (Metro). Many miles of underground tunnels, with a 750-volt rail nearby, passing under many of the word's prime terrorist targets. I always carried two lights (well, three counting a Photon on my key ring), and spare cells. That period was pretty much the last time the SFs got carried.

I've (pre-) ordered a Fenix P1D CE, we'll see.


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## Presumed_Lost (Dec 31, 2006)

carrot said:


> Welcome back, Presumed_Lost! Hope you stay awhile.



Thanks. 

Don't honestly know. I'm not as "emotionally invested" as some of you folks. They're interesting tools with some "toy value"... but, so far, I haven't really been in danger of becoming obsessed... I guess the "mystique" eludes me. For comparison, I've got maybe 8 lights... and maybe 200 knives.

Also,it really takes "smaller, lighter, brighter" for me to become interested in upgrading. Things like the U2 miss the mark entirely.


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## 65535 (Dec 31, 2006)

I think they are worth the money personnaly, they have a solid product with a solid warranty program no hassle lifetime insurance, if you break their light or if their is a defect they will replace it (Sony charged me $5 plus about $5 shipping for a small in ear silicone piece for my headphones.) My uncle just bought me a U2 and I think it is a good infestment I need a reliable light that I would actually carry around and the surefire has a nice pocket clip and everything for you (one selling point for the U2 was the bezel down pocket clip). 

If you don't want to spend uber amounts of money for a flashlight then don't there are plenty of fine extablishments that make flashlights that will work and last. As for surefire they make lights and back their lights and they have damn nice looking lights.


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## Arcoholic (Jan 1, 2007)

I think they are worth it because they were the first ones to design small and robust with immense quality and their R&D has to be paid for to ensure a good evolution.
They are also worth it because they are made in the US and not in a low labour cost environment; which comes with a whole slew of future problems.


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## SureF1reFan (Jan 1, 2007)

Wow... 
So much hate towards a company that spends the cash on R&D just to have many other companys do knock-offs of their designs. 
I'm no expert about lights nor do I own as many as some of you here (I wish). But I did learn fast after spending a bit less money on things I have never used again after buying Surefire products.

Don't get me wrong, there are some really great lights that are made out there in the world. I don't mind (much) that I have to pay for something that has a perfect warranty, I have had to use it a few times... things I broke accidently - SF has covered me everytime. I'm up to about $100 bucks in replacement parts that I didn't have to pay for again. Wish I could say that for my Streamlights - they are still broke in a drawer.

You pay for R&D - with the chance to get another newly designed flashlight later. (and tons of knock-off copies from company's who can't do the R&D, so they charge less) And a perfect warranty from a USA made light.

Oh... and much of their stuff is modular, which makes it easier for us to make our own customized lights. They keep G&P in business


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## Ilikeshinythings (Feb 20, 2007)

^ya but you're biased!! lol jp


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## ScooterBug (Feb 20, 2007)

the most expensive light i have is an A2 and then i didn't pay MSRP for it. my work light is a Z2 and it has NEVER failed. been droped plenty of times, still works. i have complete faith in this light. can't say that about other lights i own.


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## Ilikeshinythings (Feb 20, 2007)

good to hear. So they are expensive, but price is justified by quality and longevity. Those who buy them will be the people who rely the most heavily on their flashlight collections. Personally, working at a resort in del mar and being a full time business student does not really require that I use my flashlights very often, so I would be less likely to spend 200 bucks on a light than somebody who carry's a gun in the middle of baghdad late at night. It is VERy understandeable that equipment failure is not an option. For me though..surefire propoly 4AA does a seamless job of providing ample light when I work on my SVT


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## flashlightpoor (Feb 20, 2007)

The simple answer is people pay for them. As an owner of a M3, A2, and U2 I am the guilty of this. But all of the stuff you read on this list about surefire's being "worth" the money is nonsense.

It is like that famous test they did with premium vodka. When they asked people why they would spend $30 on a bottle of vodka instead of $8. 85% of them said taste. When they did a blind taste test 85% of them couldn't tell the $8 vodka from the $30 vodka. 

With a few exceptions surefire's have no functional advantage over inovas or streamlight, or the many others. Yes, the surefire aluminum tube is highly ornamented with a cnc lathe and mill, while the invoa aluminum tube is simply checkered. BUT THEY ARE BOTH JUST ALUMINUM TUBES. If a pocket clip and lanyard are worth about $100 to you then buy the E2L instead of the Inova T2. 
When two lights produce the same amount of light, use the same batteries, use the same LED in many cases, and one has very good build quality and the other has insanely good build quality there's no reason to pay 3-4 times as much. Ironically, you will find a lot of discussion on surefire's customer support on these lists-- most of it positive. But I wonder why I had to send my U2 for repairs twice, and my A2 once, for total repair time of three months if these super-premium lights are what you want to trust your life to? 

I have never ever had to service my inovas which bang around in a toolboxes 20 days per month and has had 1000s of batteries put thorugh it. 

Surefire is a bit of a cult of personality. Their catalog is an amazing piece of marketting, really incredible. It cost them a small fortune to put together and it looks like it. 
If you were uninitiaited you would think 
A)that their flashlights are the only ones you can trust your life to, 
B) current and voltage regulation is something they invented and is only slightly easier than fusion -- cool science they call it (that sort of regulation is about 100 years old for the record)
C) there's a very good chance you can stop an assailant or bear buy shining a light in his eyes (hah!) -- at the very least you can show the medic's where you are bleeding from when they arrive

This is my first soap box post, and it is already too long. But I will say this, I don't think the question is whether or not surefire's are worth the money. I think the question is would you find it more useful to have one surefire or 5 other flashlights?


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## zk188 (Feb 20, 2007)

HI im new here i think the reason they cost so much is because all those uneeded processes in the production i own 3 surefires g2 e2e 6p i am currently waiting for an l4
witch seems to be sold out everywhere.


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## 65535 (Feb 20, 2007)

Anyone mentioned Warranty


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## Aepoc (Feb 20, 2007)

Its not the materials, or even the name... Its the research and development. It takes them so long to come out with a new light and this is due to the rigorous research and testing that goes into each product. Why don't you think they have a Cree yet... still undergoing testing. We won't see a Seoul surefire for another year and a half at least.


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## Brighteyez (Feb 20, 2007)

While many Surefire lights are priced well above any comparable products from other manufacturers the basic lights are pretty much similarly priced to products from competing manufacturers.

The G2 MSRP is actually much less than the MSRP of competitive lights.
The G2 has an MSRP of $36, the SL Scorpion at $59.95, and the Pelican PM6 at $35.95

The classic 6P continued to be priced at the same price that it has always sold for, $59, while the SL TL-2 has a list price of $78.95, and the Pelican M6 is listed at $69.95.

Of course the web and street price for the SL and Pelican products is routinely discounted, and comes out to be around the prices that would be competitive with the respective Surefire pruduct (except the PM6 which is 1/3 less than it's competitors in that price range.)


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## slogan (Feb 20, 2007)

Because the federal govt. will pay $500 for a toilet seat.


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## todo (Feb 20, 2007)

Because they have successfully marketed a strong image for their flashlights. I bought into it at first but wont buy anymore untill they can match the performance of lights less than half their cost. They are completly overrated.


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## k1rod (Feb 20, 2007)

I recently purchased an M6-CB. It is a very nice, well made light. I don't see anything in it that should make it cost $400 though. For that price, I was kind of expecting beautifully machined, silver contacts, a machined battery magazine and such, rather than the usual springs in the tailcap and front of the battery compartment, plastic battery magazine. The beam is the brightest I have ever seen in a flashlight the size of most 2-D flashlights. It was however not any brighter than my $9.99 Ace Hardware handheld spotlight. I like this light alot but as I said, I don't see any reason why it costs $400 and why replacement bulbs cost $30. (You can buy car headlight bulbs of similar construction for $7.99). 

That said, and being one who is not too fast on the uptake, today I ordered a Kroma Milspec and 2 G2's. I'm still trying to figure out if I am missing something here??? 

Regards


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## thiswayup (Feb 21, 2007)

Aepoc said:


> Its not the materials, or even the name... Its the research and development. It takes them so long to come out with a new light and this is due to the rigorous research and testing that goes into each product. Why don't you think they have a Cree yet... still undergoing testing. We won't see a Seoul surefire for another year and a half at least.



Uhhh, yes. Sure. A regulator circuit that someone can design in a few days; an LED that they buy in; and a metal or plastic tube. Huge R&D cost. Sure.


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## Ilikeshinythings (Feb 23, 2007)

I believe that they do a lot of R&D. People are buying them so there must be reasons why they sell so well. Sometimes you just gotta admit something is above and beyond! If I ever make 6 figures...sure I'll buy a surefire...but for now I'm using my propoly and I love it. I really miss my Inova XO3 since somebody stole it a few months back :-/


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## search_and_rescue (Feb 24, 2007)

Some Surefire models are better than others. I think the M6-CB Guardian is the greatest Surefire of them all. Even though I have small hands, the M6 grip is perfect. I do agree that Surefires are expensive, but their quality and build is well worth the cost.

Who you buy a Surefire from is a key factor. A few years back, I purchased a Surefire L1-RD from a big product dealer. It came with a broken tailcap. I also bought an A2-WH and had to go through three before finding one without a crooked pocket clip or a non-functioning incandescent bulb.

As I tried to save money by going with Pelican, Streamlight and other brands, I found that their quality was intolerable. Can't compare. Then Benchmade Boy referred me to Spyder Tactical Supply and I couldn't believe that us members get 20% off. Well, I tried it out and have never looked back.

The quality of lights I have gotten from them is absolutely factory-sealed perfect. The M6 Guardian is unbelievable. I've used it on several long dangerous night hikes now and will not trust my life with any other brand of flashlight. I believe that is the reason why Surefires cost more. And from my personal experience, Surefires are well worth the cost.

Thank you. :laughing:


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## GeorgePaul (Feb 24, 2007)

thiswayup said:


> ...A regulator circuit that someone can design in a few days; an LED that they buy in; and a metal or plastic tube. Huge R&D cost. Sure.


You are greatly oversimplifying the process.


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## k1rod (Feb 24, 2007)

I got my new Kroma Milspec and G2's the other day. A couple of thoughts on my 4 Surefires. I think the M6 and Kroma Milspec are very overpriced for the general "Joe Flashlight User". They are for me anyway. I think that this is probably because they are not targeted at the consumer but were rather designed for military, police and other hard core institutional users. I suspect the user base for these is relatively small so Surefire needs to recover the development costs over fewer number of units sold. The G2's on the other hand are likewise a super high quality product but sold at a pricepoint that makes them a great value for "Joe Flashlight User". I think in them I have found a great new idea for Christmas gifts for friends and family. So I guess what I am saying it that I don't think Surefire is gouging anybody. It's just that we all are buying a lot of flashlights that Surefire may not have intended for general consumer use. And the models that Surefire did intend for general consumer use (like the G2) are a great value in that market. JMHO -regards


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