# Advice - why do I need (another) knife?



## SleepyInTheSun (May 31, 2020)

Need advice from y’all.


I like to be clear about needs vs wants. Last night I spent some time looking at the bark river site and decided I “need” an STS-7.5. But I need help figuring out why, because surely it can’t be a ‘want’ that I’ve confused with a ‘need’ 


I like nice stuff, especially made by small / family shops, and appreciate balancing solid design with advanced techniques / technology. My flashlights are from HDS & McGizmo, my pack is from McHale, my car is from Germany, my radio is from Elecraft, etc. I’m not rich, but I deploy such disposable income as I have to buy fewer things & aim for the best when I do make a purchase. 


Looking for ‘needs’... I spend some time in the backcountry, but I don’t go that far. If I’m in good enough shape to build a shelter with a knife I’m probably also able to walk out. If I can’t walk I can probably crawl the the top of a hill and hit the SOS button on my satellite beacon. I like to be low impact, so if I want a fire I’m going to use small branches already down I can break with my hands. I live in a nice neighbourhood with little in the way of random safety threats, and I’m under no illusions about my abilities - if I’m dealing with an armed intruder I don’t have the training / skills to gain advantage with a knife anyway and would use other strategies. If I’m hiking and encounter a predator intent on making me lunch bear spray is more likely effective. I work in an office so I’m not likely to EDC a 7”+ blade - and in any case I have a small spyderco folder in an unusual steel that is sufficient for chopping up an apple at lunchtime.

So... help, and thanks in advance


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## motigg (May 31, 2020)

Clearly you like quality stuff even when you don’t need it. So if you like the knife, get it. Sell it if you end up not liking it.


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## Modernflame (May 31, 2020)

Life is short, brother. Get your knife and enjoy it. I have a couple of Bark River fixed blades, even though I am a suburb dwelling office drone. I admit to myself that I probably don't need them, but I justify them by imagining a far fetched scenario in which I could need them. You know like a zombie apocalypse, Martian invasion, or teleportation into a parallel universe in which I am Crocodile Dundee. Yeah, they pretty much live in a drawer slathered in mineral oil, but just in case...


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## Random Dan (May 31, 2020)

I probably don't need a fixed blade most of the time either but it is reassuring to have one handy. For what Bark Rivers cost I'd rather buy from a smaller custom knifemaker but that's more of a personal preference thing. If you'll enjoy having and using it then go for it.


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## SleepyInTheSun (May 31, 2020)

Fair point. I’ve been waiting to turn in crocodile Dundee for 40+ years. So far no luck, but always good to be prepared


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## adamlau (Nov 10, 2020)

If HDS/McGizmo is your thing, then offerings from Carothers and Bussekin should be ahead of Bark River on your list of wants


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## ma tumba (Nov 10, 2020)

You may want to consider Big Chris’ knives (Chris Berry). He is a great maker and one of a few that are into high end steels. I have his nessmuk and very happy about it. Just be aware that his is a huge guy with huge hands so for someone with smaller hands his handles are a bit oversized


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## desmobob (Nov 10, 2020)

I always carried a high-quality folding knife and used a smallish fixed blade for field-dressing whitetails (if I remembered it and didn't use my folder). As I started doing more backpacking and camping, I found that a nice fixed blade knife was much preferred.

Funny thing... the guys out west seem to prefer much bigger blades than the guys back east. My favorite fixed blades for camping are a couple of inexpensive customs... a Brian Andrews Off the Map bushcraft knife and an original Dan Koster Bladeforums custom bushcraft knife. 







I have some larger blades in the range you're looking at but find them too heavy and bulky for comfortable carry and way more knife than I need. I have some Busse Combats, Blackjacks, an original Swap Rat Camp Tramp, Fallknivens, etc. I always seem to grab the Brian Andrews knife first. I prefer to carry a small but sturdy blade that can be used to baton through bigger stuff if needed rather than carrying a much larger blade capable of chopping.

Anyway, life's too short to have to justify every purchase. Especially knives, flashlights, shotguns, cameras/lenses, fly rods, etc. etc. etc.


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## The Hawk (Dec 25, 2020)

I just bought myself a Cold Steel Warcraft Tanto. Did I need it? No. Did I want it? Yes. Can I afford it? Yes. Therefore, I now own it. Life is short. If you want another knife, get yourself one. By the way, I like my new knife. I hope you pull the trigger on yours as well.


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## jabe1 (Dec 28, 2020)

If it calls to you, and you can afford it; go for it. I always feel a bit better knowing that I have a sturdy fixed blade at hand. Just a "what if" kind of thing. I have a BK14 that suits me in most instances.


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## Owen (Dec 29, 2020)

SleepyInTheSun said:


> So... help, and thanks in advance


Unless Bark River has a) changed ownership, and b) drastically improved the quality of their grinds, I wouldn't touch one with a 10ft pole, fanboys notwithstanding.
Regardless...the knife. 7.5" with a narrow 3/16" thick CPM-154 blade. It's thick for cutting, too light for chopping. It'd be fantastic for splitting, but is that what you get a knife in CPM-154 for? Just seems like a mass of contradictions to me, resulting in a knife that really isn't good at anything. 
Since you've already established your total lack of need, and have nothing to use the knife for...excellent choice!


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## bigburly912 (Dec 29, 2020)

Owen said:


> Unless Bark River has a) changed ownership, and b) drastically improved the quality of their grinds, I wouldn't touch one with a 10ft pole, fanboys notwithstanding.
> Regardless...the knife. 7.5" with a narrow 3/16" thick CPM-154 blade. It's thick for cutting, too light for chopping. It'd be fantastic for splitting, but is that what you get a knife in CPM-154 for? Just seems like a mass of contradictions to me, resulting in a knife that really isn't good at anything.
> Since you've already established your total lack of need, and have nothing to use the knife for...excellent choice!



This was an old thread but I need to respond. No fanboy here i have knives from all walks of life. 

I have a JX6 with an elmax steel blade I used this year to skin, butcher and process 2 deer back to back. I did one light touch up between the processing of the first deer and the skinning of the second. 

I don’t know if you’ve ever processed game but that’s a good feat for a knife. I’ve got dedicated deboning knives but I really wanted to put the knife through it’s paces. It was used for every single step of the process on both deer. 

I’m not saying the rest of the knives aren’t trash because I’ve never used any others but for my use for that day the JX6 gets an A+. To be able to skin, quarter, debone, trim fat, butcher with a knife that size should tell you that they aren’t all trash, I can take that knife without sharpening after the second deer and run it through paper. Just my humble experience.


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## Modernflame (Dec 29, 2020)

I admit I can be a snob when it comes to the thickness of a blade behind the edge. In fact, I completely reground a Hinderer Jurassic, which would be an act of heresy in some circles. With that said, I'm not much of an outdoors man. It takes a different sort of user to appreciate the convex zero grinds and overall more obtuse geometry of Bark River Knives. I'll add this. Bark River is a master of heat treatment. I've had several of their knives, usually with simple tool steels that perform like modern powdered steels.


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## xxo (Dec 29, 2020)

I agree on the thin grinds. Knives are for cutting and should be ground thin to cut well. If you need to chop or split wood get yourself a cheap machete, an axe and/or a saw. 

You really don't need a big expensive super steel knife for field dressing and butchering game. Years ago a hunter and a guide used a pair of little Gerber LST folding knives to butcher an elephant, only using an axe to separate the joints on the large bones.

For normal camping/hiking you can get by just fine with a SAK or Leatherman with a saw. For hunting/fishing a thin ground 4” fixed blade or locking folder is all you need. 

Personally, I am a big fan of full flat ground Spyderco knives because they cut so well and Spyderco really knows steel, heat treatments and ergonomics. I like Cold Steel a lot mostly for their lower cost items that are a lot of fun and built to last. And Victorinox and Leatherman are always very useful tools to have.


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## aginthelaw (Dec 29, 2020)

Looking forward to your next thread: Advice - why do I need (another) flashlight? 

I see your point about wanting to travel light and not using a tool when your hands will do. I never needed a Dremel tool until this year when I found I’m using my drill for more intricate work. I never needed more than a pocket knife until I spent more time in the woods. I never needed a thrower until my spotlight died and kept missing people sneaking around the properties I guarded. You’ll need another knife when your universe calls for it. Of course that’s when I figured out I needed the knife I didn’t have yet.


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## bigburly912 (Dec 29, 2020)

xxo said:


> I agree on the thin grinds. Knives are for cutting and should be ground thin to cut well. If you need to chop or split wood get yourself a cheap machete, an axe and/or a saw.
> 
> You really don't need a big expensive super steel knife for field dressing and butchering game. Years ago a hunter and a guide used a pair of little Gerber LST folding knives to butcher an elephant, only using an axe to separate the joints on the large bones.



That’s a lot of cutting with a 2.5” blade. Kudos to them. I love my Gerber LST! Used it to field dress many a deer.


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## cadjak (Feb 14, 2021)

Here is the process:
1. Bored, restless, just looking at some knives online
2. That knife wants me to own it. I just need to come up with a rationalization to think it's okay to spend $x for it
3. If I don't like it, I can always sell it.(dream on)
4. I buy it.
5. I fondle it for a day, a week, a month...
6. I put it away with all the other knives that I own.
7. Repeat as often as "needed"


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## Lumen83 (Feb 19, 2021)

xxo said:


> Knives are for cutting and should be ground thin to cut well. If you need to chop or split wood get yourself a cheap machete, an axe and/or a saw.



A lot of us have expanded our use for knives to include many more tasks than what a thin ground knife will do well. You are right that machetes, axes, saws, etc. are better at their designed task than any knife is. However, there are a lot of us that aren't wanting to pack in an axe, a saw, and a machete in addition to our knife if we are spending our time in the backcountry with just what we can carry on our person. So, there are a great deal of knives on the market that can cover some basic chopping, splitting, bushcrafting, and game processing all in one tool. You're going to need a thicker blade and many will also prefer a flat grind to do all of that. In doing so, you won't have the best knife for finesse work. But it will do it all in one tool. The industry has responded in recent years to people who want exactly that. And there are tons of knives on the market that will do it all with just one tool.

I agree that it still won't be as capable as having all of the the speciffic tools like axes and saws. But the all-in-one knife design does have its place, especially with folks that spend a lot of time in the backcountry and are trying to keep their pack weight to a reasonable number.


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## Modernflame (Feb 20, 2021)

Lumen83 said:


> I agree that it still won't be as capable as having all of the the speciffic tools like axes and saws. But the all-in-one knife design does have its place, especially with folks that spend a lot of time in the backcountry and are trying to keep their pack weight to a reasonable number.



This is very true. There are certain tasks that a thinly ground knife may not perform well, or indeed, even survive. However, one of may complaints about the knife industry today is that it is difficult to find knives thinly ground for cutting. When I say this, I don't mean that everything should be a kitchen knife, but thick, blocky geometry is ubiquitous in modern folders. I suspect this has less to do with use case and more to do with avoiding warranty claims. The result is a long menu of knives that could stab a car door, but I just want to cut up an apple at lunch time.


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## Lumen83 (Feb 21, 2021)

Modernflame said:


> I suspect this has less to do with use case and more to do with avoiding warranty claims. The result is a long menu of knives that could stab a car door, but I just want to cut up an apple at lunch time.



Good point. Too many people are watching youtube videos of knife reviews with knives being subjected to abuse that the knives weren't engineered for, and then going out and breaking the blade and submitting warranty claims. There are many knives that you can baton with in a 5 minute video that just wont hold up to that type of regular usage over time. And thats not the manufacturer's fault. 

I don't focus much on folders these days. I'm always carrying a Delica or a Stretch 2, but most of what I use knives for is outdoor activities and those are all fixed blades. Speaking of knives that are thinner ground and aren't designed to stab a car door with, one knife that I've really started to like is the Spyderco Bow River. Its a thinner flat grind fixed blade that I can do just about everything I need to for 3-seasons worth of duties up here in the mountains. And its light, which I love. Come winter, if I'm backpacking I prefer something beefier to baton with. But the bow river is great for everything from making tinder and kindling, to filleting trout and skinning deer.


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## wardroid (Mar 1, 2021)

i have a pretty massive collection, but when you find knives that you really like, you tend to not use the others. I have knives from all of the popular brands, but now, I just collect Benchmade and Spyderco. Currently, I only use 2 of my spyerco everyday and would only carry 2 of my benchmade for outdoor scenarios. Basically, you just need like 2 knives in reality.


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## ledbetter (Mar 9, 2021)

Life long collector of factory and custom knives but mostly avoided everything from China, but lately been interested in the new folding chef style knives available which keep your hand above the cutting surface-great for camping, traveling, picnics whatever. Always sort of wanted the AG Russell version made in Japan back in the day with ats 34. CRKT has one but the materials don’t look that great so pulled the trigger on the DOC with vg10(commonly used in ok kitchen knives) and titanium frame. My hope is it will be the only knife(yeah, right!) carried and used on next camping trip instead of usual pocket knives and a dedicated kitchen knife for chow duty. I guess if they keep making cool stuff, I’ll keep trying them out.


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## SleepyInTheSun (Jun 3, 2022)

Two years went by in a hurry, figure I owe you all the end of this story! Comments about too thick to be thin, too thin to be thick and too long resonated… then I ended up moving and getting distracted by that plus the pandemic. Anyway, ended up with a wilderness explorer in cru wear and really like it both for the light use it gets and looking at it. A bit overkill perhaps for making fuzz sticks and chopping vegetables but hey it adds one more bit of fun to camping  . Thanks for the fun chatter over a long period, I didn‘t notice it continued over a year until just now and enjoyed catching up with later part of thread!


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## Olumin (Jun 3, 2022)

SleepyInTheSun said:


> Two years went by in a hurry, figure I owe you all the end of this story! Comments about too thick to be thin, too thin to be thick and too long resonated… then I ended up moving and getting distracted by that plus the pandemic. Anyway, ended up with a wilderness explorer in cru wear and really like it both for the light use it gets and looking at it. A bit overkill perhaps for making fuzz sticks and chopping vegetables but hey it adds one more bit of fun to camping  . Thanks for the fun chatter over a long period, I didn‘t notice it continued over a year until just now and enjoyed catching up with later part of thread!


How is the cru wear holding up to rust so far? Since you mentioned you're using it for food prep. On paper its got a lower chromium content then D2 so im curious.


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## vicv (Jun 3, 2022)

That bow river is sweet eh? Even better the original from Phil Wilson. I don’t even know if he makes knives anymore. For me spider co seems to have gone down in quality. I recently purchased a paramemilitary, that I sent back because it was very shady. One of my favourites for the last few years, has been a kershaw leak. That is just about a perfect folding knife


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## Olumin (Jun 3, 2022)

vicv said:


> For me spider co seems to have gone down in quality. I recently purchased a paramemilitary, that I sent back because it was very shady.


Ive had the same experience with Benchmade. At this point I just have to expect every knife from them to be faulty. Blade play & faulty grinds are the norm. Its a shame, since they make some of the best designs our there. Many big "prestigious" companies eventually start relying on brand & reputation only to sell their product, at the expense of quality and innovation.


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## SleepyInTheSun (Jun 3, 2022)

Olumin said:


> How is the cru wear holding up to rust so far? Since you mentioned you're using it for food prep. On paper its got a lower chromium content then D2 so im curious.


So far so good. Gets a bit more attention of course and quick clean up than kitchen knives but so far nothing visible.


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## Olumin (Jun 3, 2022)

Thanks. Its not always practical/possible to wipe your blades straight away when your out'n' about, that's why I am a bit worried. Been thinking about a bark river in cru wear. Quite frankly im just too lazy do want to worry about rust on my blades ha, that's why I tend to sick to stainless. Maybe Ill get a cheaper blade in a non-stainless first and see how I like it.


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## vicv (Jun 3, 2022)

Olumin said:


> Thanks. Its not always practical/possible to wipe your blades straight away when your out'n' about, that's why I am a bit worried. Been thinking about a bark river in cru wear. Quite frankly im just too lazy do want to worry about rust on my blades ha, that's why I tend to sick to stainless. Maybe Ill get a cheaper blade in a non-stainless first and see how I like it.


Something like an opinel no6 in 12c27 sandvik. It’s a great little knife, made in France, for less than $10. Super thin blade. Definitely for slicing


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## Olumin (Jun 3, 2022)

Since Ive been getting into carrying a fixed blade lately maybe Ill get a small fixed in D2, which is supposed to be similar to cru wear anyway. Böker makes some nice ones, like the Nessmi. Not as cheap as an Opinel, but certainly affordable compared to B.R.. Should be similar in corrosion resistance after reading up on it a bit. Semi-stainless if you will.


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## vicv (Jun 3, 2022)

D2 is an Interesting steel. Quite a lot of chromium carbides so it has good wear resistance. But that's only important if you're cutting a lot of abrasive material. Cardboard. Dirty rope. ECT. Usually knives dull from the edge rolling or chipping. Which hardness and toughness counteracts. Me personally I've never felt where high wear resistance has helped much in edge longevity. Usually it has hurt, as having a lot of big carbides generally lowers toughness


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## Olumin (Jun 3, 2022)

Im not much of a steel junkie. Ive been staying away from D2 in the past mostly due to lower corrosion resistance & because its a bit harder to sharpen then other steels in that price range, say VG10 or N690. But its supposed to hold an edge for a good long time, so that's something it has going for it. Cru wear is better in toughness, which is probably why its considered an upgrade. 

My sweet spot is still s30v/s35vn, holds an edge for a long time & pretty easy to sharpen. But I see how really high toughness is an advantage in larger outdoor blades.


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## DRW (Jun 3, 2022)

Olumin said:


> ... faulty grinds are the norm ...


That's kinda like a bad haircut, it grows out. A knife needs to be sharpened, easy enough to profile anyway you want.


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## dotCPF (Jun 3, 2022)

Because one is none and two is one and threes a company and gives a lot more options. Four you can start having them stashed and five or six starts making kits for all you know but of course then again one is none so now you need two on you one stashed one backup stashed and then two for another two, that’s eight and only enough for you and another two. 

So what I’m saying is 1 is really actually equal to 8.


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## Olumin (Jun 3, 2022)

DRW said:


> That's kinda like a bad haircut, it grows out. A knife needs to be sharpened, easy enough to profile anyway you want.


Yeah. But when you're charging luxury prices for your product, you should deliver luxury quality. I don't accept faulty grinds on €200+ knives. nuff said.


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## vicv (Jun 3, 2022)

Olumin said:


> Im not much of a steel junkie. Ive been staying away from D2 in the past mostly due to lower corrosion resistance & because its a bit harder to sharpen then other steels in that price range, say VG10 or N690. But its supposed to hold an edge for a good long time, so that's something it has going for it. Cru wear is better in toughness, which is probably why its considered an upgrade.
> 
> My sweet spot is still s30v/s35vn, holds an edge for a long time & pretty easy to sharpen. But I see how really high toughness is an advantage in larger outdoor blades.


Oh I’m not talking about big tough blades. I like them thin and hard. Axes are for splitting wood. But a more brittle steel will microchip from regular cutting tasks


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## fulee9999 (Jun 3, 2022)

as a "vic" user I always feel left out when it comes to steel talk because basically nobody knows what victorinox uses for their blades...
It's a milder steel, I use it, eventually gets dull, I sharpen it, life goes on.

I don't know much about knives, but once I had the opportunity to get up close with a spyderco police and man that knife feels like a cheap toy. When I grow up I'll get a benchmade bugout 535 just to see what the fuss is all about, hope it won't be another leatherman kinda deal


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## Olumin (Jun 3, 2022)

fulee9999 said:


> as a "vic" user I always feel left out when it comes to steel talk because basically nobody knows what victorinox uses for their blades...
> It's a milder steel, I use it, eventually gets dull, I sharpen it, life goes on.


I think it's something like 440B.


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## vicv (Jun 3, 2022)

Victorinox uses X55CrMo14. So roughly .55% carbon and 14% chromium. And some small amount of molybdenum. Around 55-56 hrc


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## fulee9999 (Jun 3, 2022)

vicv said:


> Victorinox uses X55CrMo14. So roughly .55% carbon and 14% chromium. And some small amount of molybdenum. Around 55-56 hrc


huh. cool, thanks! so basically a S30V, right?


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## vicv (Jun 3, 2022)

fulee9999 said:


> huh. cool, thanks! so basically a S30V, right?


Lol. No. Not in any way whatsoever. Besides they are both steel alloys


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## DRW (Jun 3, 2022)

fulee9999 said:


> as a "vic" user I always feel left out when it comes to steel talk because basically nobody knows what victorinox uses for their blades...
> It's a milder steel, I use it, eventually gets dull, I sharpen it, life goes on.
> 
> I don't know much about knives, but once I had the opportunity to get up close with a spyderco police and man that knife feels like a cheap toy. When I grow up I'll get a benchmade bugout 535 just to see what the fuss is all about, hope it won't be another leatherman kinda deal


Bugout is a nice knife. Axis lock is my favorite Benchmade lock. I doubt you will think of Leatherman while holding a Benchmade. I have a few autos for sale on my website, if that's legal in your area. They are used, you'll save on a knife with a lifetime warranty.


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## fulee9999 (Jun 3, 2022)

vicv said:


> Lol. No. Not in any way whatsoever. Besides they are both steel alloys



uhm. so what's the difference? or how is it different? ( I'm not very well versed in steel as stated before  )

Because to my mind, you wrote "roughly .55% carbon and 14% chromium. And some small amount of molybdenum. Around 55-56 hrc"
And when I look up S30V the numbers are pretty close:


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## fulee9999 (Jun 3, 2022)

DRW said:


> Bugout is a nice knife. Axis lock is my favorite Benchmade lock. I doubt you will think of Leatherman while holding a Benchmade. I have a few autos for sale on my website, if that's legal in your area. They are used, you'll save on a knife with a lifetime warranty.



No, autos and butterfly knives are highly illegal here. Also autos give me the creeps, I always just picture the knife opening on it's own for some reason and stabbing you in the nads..


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## vicv (Jun 3, 2022)

fulee9999 said:


> uhm. so what's the difference? or how is it different? ( I'm not very well versed in steel as stated before  )
> 
> Because to my mind, you wrote "roughly .55% carbon and 14% chromium. And some small amount of molybdenum. Around 55-56 hrc"
> And when I look up S30V the numbers are pretty close:
> ...


Well s30v has 1% more carbon in it.(.5% carbon is considered low carbon. 1.5% is very high. High carbon steel is generally .8-1%) That is a huge amount difference. 300% more. So it can get much harder. Also because it has 4% vanadium in it, that combines with the extra carbon to make vanadium carbides. The hardest carbides there are. Also the extra molybdenum adds hardness, hot hardness( ability to resist losing temper due to heating) and pitting resistance. It’s also a powder metallurgy steel as there is a lot more alloying elements in it and gives a much finer grained steel. It’s like a Ford Focus compared to a Jaguar XK.
Now they both make good knives in their own right, but s30v is much better


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## fulee9999 (Jun 3, 2022)

vicv said:


> Well s30v has 1% more carbon in it.(.5% carbon is considered low carbon. 1.5% is very high. High carbon steel is generally .8-1%) That is a huge amount difference. 300% more. So it can get much harder. Also because it has 4% vanadium in it, that combines with the extra carbon to make vanadium carbides. The hardest carbides there are. Also the extra molybdenum adds hardness, hot hardness( ability to resist losing temper due to heating) and pitting resistance. It’s also a powder metallurgy steel as there is a lot more alloying elements in it and gives a much finer grained steel. It’s like a Ford Focus compared to a Jaguar XK.
> Now they both make good knives in their own right, but s30v is much better


to be completely honest with you, I'm not sure I want my blade too hard, because steel has the strange tendency to break around me


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## Olumin (Jun 4, 2022)

I actually just bought a modern reproduction of a vintage Puma hunting pattern with a 4116 blade (same as X50cr...). Honestly any steel is fine as long as you keep it sharp. This ones just for the collection tho. Its the trail guide in bone if you're curious. Ive got a soligen made Hartkopf folder, I think they'll make a good pair. I think the knife (aside from blade) is actually made in china, so I guess its not fully German. For the price I couldn't resist. The vintage originals go for a pretty penny these days.


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## fulee9999 (Jun 9, 2022)

I found a Bugout535 for a reasonable price, so I jumped ship on it, before it's discontinued 
really like the modularity of this knife, you can basically swap any part, and I like that in my gear.
first impression is that it feels really cheap, BUT that was to be expected, as far as I know this supposed to be an EDC-ish knife from benchmade and for that - so far - it seems OK. the opening action is actually really sweet, I just have to get over the size and weight


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## Olumin (Jun 9, 2022)

Flytanium makes metal scales for the bugout, which might mitigate that "toy" feeling you're getting. But I wouldn't want to entice anyone to spend even more money on their knives... 

Congratulations on that bugout. But a word of advice: _*Don't get into expensive knives!*_ or watches..


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## scalpel_ninja (Jun 9, 2022)

fulee9999 said:


> I just have to get over the size and weight


Carbon fiber scales will remedy the flex in the Bugout stock scales. As Olumim said, titanium will take care of the weight as well.


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## fulee9999 (Jun 9, 2022)

scalpel_ninja said:


> Carbon fiber scales will remedy the flex in the Bugout stock scales.



I'm not too worried about the flexing, it's a thin piece of plastic, I already knew what I was getting into, but I will probably get a Ti and a carbon scale, the selection is *vast*, even just on etsy and amazon



Olumin said:


> Congratulations on that bugout. But a word of advice: _*Don't get into expensive knives!*_ or watches..



Thankfully (?) I don't even nearly have enough disposable income to get into knives and I simply cannot justify collecting watches to myself, eventho there are quite a few I'd really really want...


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## ledbetter (Jun 9, 2022)

The Bugout weighs 1.8 oz!!! It was designed to do the most with the bare minimum. Don’t mess with perfection. Well, maybe carbon fiber. It will only add a fraction of an oz and stiffen it up. Reminds me of people with sports cars who add giant rims not realizing(or caring)that wheel weight reduces performance dramatically.


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## fulee9999 (Jun 9, 2022)

ledbetter said:


> The Bugout weighs 1.8 oz!!! It was designed to do the most with the bare minimum. Don’t mess with perfection. Well, maybe carbon fiber. It will only add a fraction of an oz and stiffen it up. Reminds me of people with sports cars who add giant rims not realizing(or caring)that wheel weight reduces performance dramatically.



yeah, and now I get why people made fun of Wranglerstar for dissing this knife. It supposed to be light, which makes it feel weak or cheap, but I'm pretty sure the engineers at Benchmade made sure that this tiny little plastic will hold fairly good.
To be honest even if it doesn't, you can disassemble the whole knife with a few screws and get a new/different scale. Until you don't damage/bend the actual blade, everything else is user serviceable.


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## Olumin (Jun 9, 2022)

fulee9999 said:


> Thankfully (?) I don't even nearly have enough disposable income to get into knives and I simply cannot justify collecting watches to myself, eventho there are quite a few I'd really really want...


You're probably better off. No one actually _needs _anything more then 440c, anything "better" is marketing or for collectors who don't really use most of their knives.. Like me... 
The fixed blade I've been carrying lately is in N690, basically the same as 440c in performance. That's despite me having blades in S90v, 20cv or m390. The truth is its just fine... & much quicker to sharpen.. 

Same goes for "hard use" overbuilt folders. No such thing, thats what a full tang fixed blade is for. They are great pieces of machining art & great collectors pieces. 

That's my philosophy anyway. I still love high-end knives, but its important to keep in mind that, most of the time, they aren't actually better cutting tools, just fancier ones. Except the sebenza!
Its kinda the same with watches, functionally, an ETA quartz is mostly as good as it gets. With mechanical movements? well... Probably Rolex. But that's actually budget compared to some of the so called "haute horlogerie" brands out there...


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## fulee9999 (Jun 9, 2022)

Olumin said:


> With mechanical movements? well... Probably Rolex. But that's actually budget compared to some of the so called "haute horlogerie" brands out there...



true that, this is my favorite in that category






but still, from engineering POV I still think the Philippe Dufour Duality is one of the best creations out there


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## Olumin (Jun 9, 2022)

I really like the movements Nomos is making, especially for the price. Its high quality traditional watchmaking without gimmicks. As a watchmaker I appreciate that. I just don't like their case & dial designs unfortunately, its too simple for me. I also had to find out that they wear a lot larger then one might think & I tend to like small watches. 

The watch I most often wear is a late 70s Seiko, with a 32mm case diameter. That wouldn't even fly as a ladies watch nowadays lol. I hope the trend for smaller watches will return eventually. Its especially silly when you open up modern watches & the movement is only taking up half the case or less. Cases might have gotten bigger, but the movements didn't.


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## scalpel_ninja (Jun 9, 2022)

The (potential) Achilles heel of the Bugout and any other Axis lock knife is corrosion on the omega springs and breakage. I’ve broken one in my 940. Instead of sending it in, I bought piano wire and shaped my own by wrapping it around drill bits of different sizes. It’s pretty easy to perfect after a few tries. I kept the original spring and fragments as a reference; and if I need to send it in for any other warranty work, I will drop the originals back in the knife to keep the warranty intact (and get Benchmade to replace them at the time).


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## scalpel_ninja (Jun 9, 2022)

Olumin said:


> You're probably better off. No one actually _needs _anything more then 440c, anything "better" is marketing or for collectors who don't really use most of their knives.. Like me...
> The fixed blade I've been carrying lately is in N690, basically the same as 440c in performance. That's despite me having blades in S90v, 20cv or m390. The truth is its just fine... & much quicker to sharpen..
> 
> Same goes for "hard use" overbuilt folders. No such thing, thats what a full tang fixed blade is for. They are great pieces of machining art & great collectors pieces.
> ...



I agree. I’ve owned both the base Bugout and the S90V/CF version. The S90V is overkill, chippy, and more difficult to sharpen. I’d say the best balance for me is the base blade steel in CF scales.


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## kerneldrop (Jun 9, 2022)

Olumin said:


> You're probably better off. No one actually _needs _anything more then 440c, anything "better" is marketing or for collectors who don't really use most of their knives..



Someone say hard use neck knives ?


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## JimIslander (Jun 9, 2022)

Another knife is always a good decision. After 13 months, this custom Lucas Forge Kephart arrived today.


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## fulee9999 (Jun 9, 2022)

JimIslander said:


> Another knife is always a good decision. After 13 months, this custom Lucas Forge Kephart arrived today.
> View attachment 28714
> View attachment 28715


can you baton with it?


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## Olumin (Jun 9, 2022)

Neck knives are neat if you can wear them openly. This wouldn't work with my attire so the point of convenience is kinda lost. I carry a 3.5in fixed atm in either a belt or a in-pocket sheath depending on what im wearing & where im going. Ive put a ulticlip on a sharpshooter sheath and it fits this blade perfectly. 







Sun's already gone here, so not much light to work with..


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## fulee9999 (Jun 9, 2022)

Olumin said:


> Neck knives are neat if you can wear them openly. This wouldn't work with my attire so the point of convenience is kinda lost. I carry a 3.5in fixed atm in either a belt or a in-pocket sheath depending on what im wearing & where im going. Ive put a ulticlip on a sharpshooter sheath and it fits this blade perfectly.
> 
> View attachment 28716
> 
> ...


TIL how lax german laws about knife length is... you can carry a knife with a blade length under 12cm on you just like that?!


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## Olumin (Jun 9, 2022)

fulee9999 said:


> TIL how lax german laws about knife length is... you can carry a knife with a blade length under 12cm on you just like that?!


Yeah, that's one of the only advantages to our knife laws. Folders have no length restriction at all, fixed blades like you said under 12cm. Plenty of stupid restrictions to make for it tho, like locking knives being banned from carry if you can open them with one hand, but not otherwise. There's also a complete ban on OTFs, balisongs & side autos over 8,5cm.

There are some exceptions to blade length depending on intent & whether the cop likes you or not. For example a hunter or someone on a camping or bushcrafting trip could possibly carry a longer blade.

That opens up some neat loopholes tho:


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## fulee9999 (Jun 9, 2022)

Olumin said:


> locking knives being banned from carry if you can open them with one hand



the UK has the same dumb locking restriction with knives as well, I don't understand why a locking blade would more dangerous than a non-locking one if the rule is there to protect the general public...


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## JimIslander (Jun 9, 2022)

fulee9999 said:


> can you baton with it?


Definitely. Thick blade. 1/8" 01 steel.


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## vicv (Jun 10, 2022)

JimIslander said:


> Definitely. Thick blade. 1/8" 01 steel.


That’s too bad😁


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## JimIslander (Jun 10, 2022)

vicv said:


> That’s too bad😁



All my knives are workers, even if they cost me more than a nice meal for two...with a bottle of fine wine.


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## vicv (Jun 10, 2022)

For sure. Everyone has their own needs and preferences. I consider a knife that survives being baton to be a mistake. As far as I'm concerned a good knife will break under that type of abuse


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## Olumin (Jun 10, 2022)

No folding knife should be expected to take that kind of abuse, although some advertise their designs as "hard use" which is a bit of a contradiction. The steel in an outdoor fixed blade IMO should not be too brittle to avoid it chipping when hitting hard material like bone, rock or metal, which can easily happen in hunting, camping or bushcraft. I would expect those to stand up to light batoning. If such a blade where to break I would say either the blade was ground too thin or the steel is too hard. Usually outdoor fixed blades don't exceed 60hrc, & 56-58 is quite typical in many designs.


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## fulee9999 (Jun 10, 2022)

vicv said:


> For sure. Everyone has their own needs and preferences. I consider a knife that survives being baton to be a mistake. As far as I'm concerned a good knife will break under that type of abuse



uhm.. as a "vic" user peasant I always figured all folding knives survive batoning if you use it correctly 
( half close the blade, and baton away, victorinox knives notoriusly good for that type of use )


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## xxo (Jun 10, 2022)

vicv said:


> For sure. Everyone has their own needs and preferences. I consider a knife that survives being baton to be a mistake. As far as I'm concerned a good knife will break under that type of abuse



For the most part, batoning is for people who make youtube vids in their backyard. Most people that use their knives for real want them to cut well not to use as a splitting wedge.


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## vicv (Jun 10, 2022)

I have reground most of my knives to be between 0.005 and 0010 in thick measured 1/8 of an inch above the edge. That is very thin and cuts very well. But that type of an edge will not stand up to abuse. But I know that my knife edge will never come in contact with a rock. Or a chunk of maple. I want them to be aggressive cutters and be able to slice through material without wedging


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## Olumin (Jun 10, 2022)

0.005" is the thickness behind the edge of a standard double edged razor blade. I would doubt the durability of such an edge even for regular every day cutting tasks. Ive heard of some people grinding down to .3mm, but not thinner. That would be way too fragile for my taste that's for certain.


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## xxo (Jun 10, 2022)

vicv said:


> I have reground most of my knives to be between 0.005 and 0010 in thick measured 1/8 of an inch above the edge. That is very thin and cuts very well. But that type of an edge will not stand up to abuse. But I know that my knife edge will never come in contact with a rock. Or a chunk of maple. I want them to be aggressive cutters and be able to slice through material without wedging


I have a bunch of thin ground slicers. For example, my favorite neck knife and most used kitchen knife is an old cold steel K4 - great for slicing but too thin for even light abuse. I wouldn't even use the K4 for wood carving. I would use one of my thicker/narrower bladed knives for that, such as a moras or my cold steel finn hawk instead.


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## kerneldrop (Jun 10, 2022)

JimIslander said:


> All my knives are workers, even if they cost me more than a nice meal for two...with a bottle of fine wine.



Our knives work and our muscles lift


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## vicv (Jun 10, 2022)

Olumin said:


> 0.005" is the thickness behind the edge of a standard double edged razor blade. I would doubt the durability of such an edge even for regular every day cutting tasks. Ive heard of some people grinding down to .3mm, but not thinner. That would be way too fragile for my taste that's for certain.


My kitchen knives are like that. Except for my one that I use around bone I've left that to .0015.
My skinning knife and my filet knives are also at that thinness. My everyday belt knife, isn't that range as well. I use it for opening packages and slicing meat. I'm not bending or prying or twisting anything. And it survives just fine. 
I think a real travesty is that people just don't generally get to experience this type of grind. They think that heavy ground knives are super tough. But what they really are is cheap to produce. You can have much less sophisticated grinding methods with a thicker edge. With how thin mine are, if you don't do it evenly you'll get a piece of tin foil in one spot. That is very expensive to do with mass production


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## vicv (Jun 10, 2022)

Should look up some info on Phil Wilson. He has some good articles and is considered the pinncale of high performance slicing knives. Otherwise this is getting a bit off topic





Seamount Knifeworks :: Home


Seamount Knifeworks - Phillip Wilson Knifemaker



seamountknifeworks.com


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## Olumin (Jun 10, 2022)

Do you make your own knives? Because regrinding the bevel with a steeper angle wont change the thickness behind the edge. Or do you regrind the entire blade? Hollow or flat ground? What kind of knifes are you carrying? I haven't heard of any production carry blades with that kinda grind. Custom?

Maybe you're right, after all I haven't tried it. I just haven't heard about before that's all. Im too lazy to grind my blades that thin. Im very lazy in general. Im not trying to split atoms so my knives cut well enough for me.


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## vicv (Jun 10, 2022)

That is very fair. It's more of a hobby than anything. I have made a few knives but I'm not a knife maker. But I do have a belt grinder that I built. And that is how I am regrinding blades. Generally full flat grind. And yes there's a lot more thinning than just a steeper bevel angle. I have a couple of fill Wilson customs that did not need any work. Otherwise various kitchen knives. They are especially well suited to the thin grinds, being that they cut nothing but vegetables and meat on a clean soft cutting board. A spyderco delica. The Kershaw leek. I have an '01 fix blade knife made for me years ago by a Smith from blade forums. I had him grind it very thin, and then I grounded even thinner. That blade was left at 63 Rockwell hardness.


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## kerneldrop (Jun 10, 2022)

here’s a David Mary Customs slicer. 
15N20
It’s my sharpest to date 
1/8” Behind the edge is ~.0195” thick


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## Olumin (Jun 10, 2022)

You might think 'cause Im a watchmaker Id love making & modifying various things but truth be told its my least favourite part of the job. Although I've always been told im very good at it for what its worth. Never was big into the whole DIY thing. If I can find something I want for sale or a spare part that fits Id honestly rather just buy one then make it myself. 

When I was at watchmaking school we worked primarily with a manual lathe & various files as well as a few whetstones. Tolerance for the finished parts was usually 0.01mm. How they where finished was just as important; polished or brushed, how fine the brushing is, the quality of the turned surfaces... was all graded. Maybe that's why Im fed up with it. They say you love something until it's your job 

Here's a piece I kept around. The main purpose of this model was setting the correct distance between axles within a movement, in this case a pin pallet escapement. The various styles of attachment between the plates were deliberate.


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## xxo (Jun 10, 2022)

Some good inexpensive thin ground knives: Opinel, Douk Douk and Victorinox paring knives - properly sharpened, these will cut like a knife should cut without being super delicate. If you want a cheap beater that can handle some abuse (not batoning) like wood carving/light prying/scraping etc, the Moras and the like (including the finn Hawk) are good choices, but these have very thick/heavy blades compared to the opinel/douk douk/vic paring knives and won't slice nearly as well.


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## fulee9999 (Jun 10, 2022)

xxo said:


> Some good inexpensive thin ground knives: Opinel, Douk Douk and Victorinox paring knives - properly sharpened, these will cut like a knife should cut without being super delicate. If you want a cheap beater that can handle some abuse (not batoning) like wood carving/light prying/scraping etc, the Moras and the like (including the finn Hawk) are good choices, but these have very thick/heavy blades compared to the opinel/douk douk/vic paring knives and won't slice nearly as well.



I always forgot to order an Opi to use for food, thanks for reminding me!


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## vicv (Jun 10, 2022)

Especially the stainless opinel. I’ve had a few of them and they’ve all been very good. The carbon I had…. Something was wrong with the heat treat. It was closer to cheese than hardened steel. With their reputation, I assume it was a fluke that I got. Or maybe a bad batch. But 12c27 is basically impossible to do a bad treat on with modern equipment. So I like their stainless. And it sharpens nicely.


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## Olumin (Jun 10, 2022)

I used to use my knife a lot more for food prep during my breaks when I worked in an office for a few years. The thin blade of my Wenger did a good job at the time. I believe it was a locking model. I think most modern folders have blades which are far too thick, 2-2,5mm is enough on a folder for me. But you only tend to get that on a few slipjoints or multitools anymore.


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## xxo (Jun 10, 2022)

fulee9999 said:


> I always forgot to order an Opi to use for food, thanks for reminding me!


My opinel is in stainless, never had one in carbon. I usually go with stainless for smaller knives.






I have douk douks in both carbon and stainless, though I tend to use the stainless one most.






Some Victorinox paring knives:






BTW, don't be afraid to get the ones with the serrated edges, they cut near a smooth as the plain edges and re-sharpen beautifully on a sharpmaker.


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## xxo (Jun 10, 2022)

Olumin said:


> I used to use my knife a lot more for food prep during my breaks when I worked in an office for a few years. The thin blade of my Wenger did a good job at the time. I believe it was a locking model. I think most modern folders have blades which are far too thick, 2-2,5mm is enough on a folder for me. But you only tend to get that on a few slipjoints or multitools anymore.


Wenger and Victorinox SAK blades are great for most cutting tasks. Back in the day they were about as thick as most pocket knives, but today they are much thinner than most folders.


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## ledbetter (Jun 10, 2022)

Opinel carbon purchased when following le tour. Always buy something when I arrive empty handed in Europe flying carry on only going and checking stuff on way home. Got plenty of use there not so much lately. Had to try original carbon and it was fun watching it change colors while slicing a tomato. Sharpens easily and good slicer. Used knife to cut the zip ties holding these signs to the street posts!


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## fulee9999 (Jun 10, 2022)

guys you scared the sh. out of me with this carbon opinel talk, I never even realized they had a carbon version 
thankfully I ordered a normal stainless, so crisis averted!


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## Limit_hex (Jun 11, 2022)

A Mora, a SAK and a Delica, with a Sharpmaker … Don’t know why I have all the others (and the multiple versions of those three).


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## fulee9999 (Jun 14, 2022)

it arrived!






and ( I didn't know that ) you can even ask for factory engraving on the blade and handle too


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## vicv (Jun 14, 2022)

Where did you order it from?


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## fulee9999 (Jun 14, 2022)

vicv said:


> Where did you order it from?



directly from the manufacturer: https://www.opinel.com/


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## vicv (Jun 14, 2022)

Cool. Didn’t know you could purchase directly from them


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## Limit_hex (Jun 14, 2022)

Hm, this thread makes me think again of getting an Izula-2. And it’s not that I need it.


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## Olumin (Jun 24, 2022)

I ordered a TRC South Pole from a German shop a few days back 'cause I wanted to try 'em for a while now & I didn't have anything in Elmax yet. They delivered the wrong finish so it'll get returned. I was quite disappointed to see however that the blade is a whole 0.7mm behind the edge (secondary bevel). Not that I would do cutting tests with it now that its being returned but I cant Imagine that cutting particularly well. A knife of that size doesn't need anything more then .5 to be sturdy enough. I wouldn't mind seeing that kinda grind on the apocalypse but its a bit out of place on the south pole.

I haven't found anyone else talk about this on the forums so I thought I'd post it here so others know what they're getting into. Im perfectly aware most peeps don't actually _use _these knives but I planned on carrying it occasionally so Its a bit of a damper in terms of usefulness. My 6.5 inch puma bowie is ground much better in comparison at .5mm, which is just right for a knife like that. I wouldn't really care if it was cheap but y'know.


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## fulee9999 (Jun 24, 2022)

Olumin said:


> Im perfectly aware most peeps don't actually _use _these knives



to be fair most knife people don't use their knives


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## Olumin (Jun 24, 2022)

Here are a couple pics:


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## Olumin (Jun 24, 2022)

fulee9999 said:


> to be fair most knife people don't use their knives


There are knives that I buy just for the collection that don't get used, like that bowie I mentioned. Mostly traditionals for me. But of cause many of em are too big to carry legally anyway.


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## vicv (Jun 24, 2022)

It’s also a shame as elmax has an impressive mixture of toughness and hardness and could be ground much thinner. But that would cost more to produce


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## Olumin (Jun 24, 2022)

Thats what I thought. I think the reason behind this might be perhaps to lower the risk of chipping in sub-zero temperatures like -30C and below, considering how they advertise it & its name? Im sure that one guy who will ever get to use it on their antarctic expedition will appreciate it. For the rest of us..


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