# Tactical Flashlight techniques - take two



## Beastmaster (Feb 5, 2008)

Okay - since my original thread got blitzed for some odd reason outside anyones control, I'm recreating the thread, but modding it in a way.

To recap - there was a discussion in which I originally proposed that a thread would be created to show/demonstrate which tactical flashlight holds could be performed with specific flashlights.

This is where I'm going to drift away from my original thread and head it towards something even more generic. My original thread was set up to really only deal with smaller tactical flashlights that have a rear momentary tail switch.

However, there are still some uses for the larger lights that have a side mounted momentary/forward click switch. If I take those into account, the amount of flashlight techniques grow quite a bit.

So - starting off, I'll cover the various techniques split up by the ability to use it with a rear switch versus the side switch, plus some personal (useful) commentary.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 5, 2008)

I will start off by listing the most commonly known flashlight techniques first. Pictures for each will follow....once I'm able to set up the camera on a tripod and have the wife take pics.

These listed techniques in this post are useable with both rear switch and side switch lights.

1) Harries - One of the classic flashlight methods - this is still popular today. It's taught at most low light tactical classes and is also taught at most police academies. 

2) FBI - This is one of the first methods out there. In my view - it's too prone to error; some users can confuse their motor skills too easily and swap positions with their pistol and flashlight.

3) Puckett - Popularized by Brian Puckett but also taught by others, this method gives better control of the light. (This is really an off shoot of the FBI technique, but gives better swiveling of the light and better alignment)


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## Beastmaster (Feb 5, 2008)

Next up - Rear switch only methods.

4) SureFire/Rogers. Also known as the cigar or syringe method. This method allows you to have a somewhat two-handed grip on the pistol and still control the light at the same time.

5) Hargraves method - (and I'm sure I'm misspelling it, but I'm doing this from memory right now). This was created by someone from the British Military, in which you're able to control the light in the same plane as the gun barrel. It predates the Thorpe method, but provides a bit less control of the pistol due to less cross tension of the hands.

6) Thorpe method - popularized by Novatac, this method is a mix of the SureFire/Rogers and the Hargraves methods. It keeps the light in the same plane as the gun barrel, but gives you better two handed control of the pistol.

7) Ayoob method - alternate. This method requires you to hold the flashlight in an ice pick hold and press the rear switch against your chest to activate the light.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 5, 2008)

Finally - side switch only methods.

8) Chapman technique - popularized by IPSC Champion Ray Chapman, this method works best in an isosceles stance. It provides good tension of the hands and the flashlight.

9) USMC - an offshoot of the Chapman technique, this method provides some stability, but not to the degree that the Chapman technique gives. You also get some cutoff of the flood part of the beam thanks to the positioning of the hands.

10) Ayoob method - original. This method is also similar to the Chapman technique, but you don't get as stable of a hand position for the flashlight hand because the light is cradled rather than held with both the thumb and forefinger.

11) Keller method. This method is a variant of the Harries technique, however, it has two major drawbacks. One is that it's useful only with side switched lights. The second is that the arm position of the flashlight hand can interfere with the action of the slide of the pistol, making it a single shot pistol if you have to fire. If your pistol has a low bore/slide axis, you definitely do NOT want to consider this one.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 5, 2008)

Now, there are other flashlight methods out there. The next two are getting listed, but I don't have enough information nor have I been trained on them or experienced them personally to give any level of commentary.

a) The Graham combat grip method. Supposedly this is being partnered with SureFire. It's a two handed pistol/flashlight method of which I have no other information on. 

b) The Woo method. This method had had one article publication - a short blurb in SWAT Magazine in 2006. Not much details other than it works with both pistol mounted lights and unmounted handheld lights.

There are also other methods as well - with some having the pistol and flashlight closer to the core of the body for better weapons and light retention, and some involving right-angle flashlights like the classic military lights and the Tomahawk from First-Light. For the right angle methods, I'll have to bring out my copy of the USMC Pistol Marksmanship manual and it's low light chapter....mainly since I'm not familiar with them at all.

I will be having pictures depicting all of these methods (save for the Graham and the Woo methods) as soon as I can get things set up to do so.

-Steve


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## KeyGrip (Feb 5, 2008)

I never knew there were so many. Do you know of any techniques that don't involve use of a firearm?


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## MikeSalt (Feb 5, 2008)

Does anyone have any photos of these various holding techniques? An illustrated version would be beautiful.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 5, 2008)

A couple - and those came from a defensive tactics class.

Both involve utilizing the flashlight in your weak hand and in an icepick hold. The use of them is primarily with bezels that are crenelated and rear switches that are momentary/twisty only.

Basically, you utilize the flashlight as a small strike device and still allow yourself the flexibility to rubber stamp someone's head, use it to flash their eyes, or integrate it with a second impact device (like a baton) to both flash their eyes and rubber stamp their head with a crenelation and strike with the baton.

This method, of course, is more useful with a E2D or a 6P sized unit with a strike bezel.

-Steve



KeyGrip said:


> I never knew there were so many. Do you know of any techniques that don't involve use of a firearm?


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## Beastmaster (Feb 5, 2008)

MikeSalt said:


> Does anyone have any photos of these various holding techniques? An illustrated version would be beautiful.



Well, that's what's going to happen tonight. I'm going to set up a tripod pointed at an empty wall area in my house. I'll set up to where you can see the position in various parts.

For example - with the Keller method, I would be showing it with both a Mag and with the slide back on a rather large pistol (like my Glock 21) so that I can show how the technique (if used improperly) can affect the cycling of the pistol.

-Steve


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## MikeSalt (Feb 5, 2008)




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## greenLED (Feb 5, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> Well, that's what's going to happen tonight. I'm going to set up a tripod pointed at an empty wall area in my house. I'll set up to where you can see the position in various parts.
> 
> For example - with the Keller method, I would be showing it with both a Mag and with the slide back on a rather large pistol (like my Glock 21) so that I can show how the technique (if used improperly) can affect the cycling of the pistol.
> 
> -Steve


Excellent!


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## Beastmaster (Feb 5, 2008)

All right. Picture Time.

Starting off - Harries.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

Next up - FBI.






Note how misaligned the flashlight is. This was done on purpose, however, it is easily done. A great deal of coordination is needed to coordinate the flashlight and the pistol at the same time.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

This is the Puckett technique. A variant of the FBI, note that the flashlight is aligned thanks to the proximity to the jawbone.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

SureFire/Rogers technique.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

Hargreaves method. This is the precursor to the Thorpe technique.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

Thorpe Technique. This is done with a SureFire with the OpticsHQ tailcap, and the last pic shows a Novatac 120P with tactical switch tailcap.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

Ayoob Techniques.

The first two shows one variant. This is where the fingers of the flashlight hand contact the fingers of the pistol hand.

The second two is the second variant. This is where the thumbs of the two hands are touching each other.

The third is the alternate method that is compatible with rear switch momentary lights.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

Chapman method. Thumb contacts the switch of the light. Note that the support/flashlight hand has some fingers wrapped around the primary hand where the pistol is.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

USMC Embassy method. Note that the pistol hand has some fingers inside the bezel of the flashlight.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

And finally - the Keller method.

Frankly - I don't like this method. It's too motor skill intensive, and the support/flashlight arm and wrist can and will interfere with the slide of the pistol. The third picture will show that pretty clearly.


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## adamlau (Feb 6, 2008)

An excellent thread, Beastmaster. I favor the Harries technique myself.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

adamlau said:


> An excllent thread, Beastmaster. I favor the Harries technique myself.



Thanks.

My personal favorites are Harries, Rogers, Thorpe, and FBI. 

There's an axiom where if you have too many choices to make, your decision paths in your brain slow down because there's more to process. So I personally force myself to only use 3-4 of them at the most because I don't want to slow down the process in my head.

-Steve


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## Supernam (Feb 6, 2008)

Chapman for side-switches by far. It's so stable and easy to do without any awkward crossovers or bends of the wrist. Especially for the SL-20X's and Stingers that are so common with law enforcement officers.


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## KeeperSD (Feb 6, 2008)

Excellent work Beastmaster, nice post and the pics add 1000 words. 

My post in the first thread was a little negative, sorry about that (it was early in the morning). Only reason i tried to push it in a direction that includes these other holds is that our Police Service teaches a method similar to the Chapman. Unfortunately our Police Service does not allow provide regular training so they choose a hold that utilises 2 hands on the firearm. 

Personally FBI looks to unstable for me and a single handed shooting grip, while the the cigar holding style of grips look fine motor skill orientated, again we don't get enough training for this. I think for me i would lean to the Harries with a tail cap switch


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## Lightraven (Feb 6, 2008)

That last one doesn't make much sense to me. Who is Keller? Not Helen, right?  

I just went through my agency's annual night fire training today that is simply a Surefire Low Light course complete with Surefire powerpoint slides. Only 5 official techniques were shown, and the Surefire/Rogers doesn't work with an issued Stinger, so basically 4.

I've got techniques I like better than others, but in the field, when doing it for real, I really don't know what I'll do. It is too situation specific. The nature of most self defense shootings is a reaction shot to being attacked and frequently the gun must be unholstered first. At that point, technique sort of goes out the window in order to put rounds on target.

At the range today, our people would spend precious seconds setting up the Harries or FBI and then shooting an unmoving piece of paper without a time constraint. In real life, those seconds may be bullets flying by you (or into you) or a bad guy coming in with a knife or club. The last time I set up a Harries in the field, I spotted a bad guy walking towards me with a stick or rebar from about 300 yards away. In this same exact spot, a coworker previously shot and killed an attacker with a knife. So, I was well prepared with Surefire M3 (and loads of backup units) by the time he got to me. No fight occurred.

But a lot of shootings involve running and dodging and wrestling which none of these techniques seem to take into account. I mean, how many of these techniques can you actually chase somebody?

Thanks for the pictures.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

KeeperSD said:


> Excellent work Beastmaster, nice post and the pics add 1000 words.
> 
> My post in the first thread was a little negative, sorry about that (it was early in the morning). Only reason i tried to push it in a direction that includes these other holds is that our Police Service teaches a method similar to the Chapman. Unfortunately our Police Service does not allow provide regular training so they choose a hold that utilises 2 hands on the firearm.
> 
> Personally FBI looks to unstable for me and a single handed shooting grip, while the the cigar holding style of grips look fine motor skill orientated, again we don't get enough training for this. I think for me i would lean to the Harries with a tail cap switch




No biggie about the comments - It's now corrected way better than what I thought it would be.

As for the FBI position - there are some advantages (rare in my view) that the FBI technique provides. One is that it allows you to cut a corner in a way that it allows the flashlight to lead first. 

It also doesn't blind you with reflection against your firearm. There are so many cons though, that I don't like it in general.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

Lightraven said:


> That last one doesn't make much sense to me. Who is Keller? Not Helen, right?
> 
> I just went through my agency's annual night fire training today that is simply a Surefire Low Light course complete with Surefire powerpoint slides. Only 5 official techniques were shown, and the Surefire/Rogers doesn't work with an issued Stinger, so basically 4.
> 
> ...



Not a problem!

The Keller method is named after some guy from the Georgia State Police (IIRC). Again, I really don't like it. It's obvious to me that it was designed mainly for revolvers and does not take into account large framed semi-autos like the full sized 1911 and the Glock 21.

As for being on the run - I would hope that no one uses this stuff while on the run.

This is where the Woo technique seems to be interesting - if I can get more details on it. Also - the First Light Tomahawk's seem to help address some of the "on the run" issues as well.

Flashlight techniques is more of a learned and applied skillset depending on the situation. Again - I'm familiar with a lot of them...but I don't use many of them because I don't want to not only confuse my decision loop, I also want to use a method that's easily adaptable. That is one (and one of the rare) advantage to the FBI method - it's adaptable to a lot of variants like the Puckett.

The Harries technique has some advantages too. For someone that's getting too close - rubber stamp the perp in the head. The position of the Harries with the icepick hold works well for that defense, and you can quickly get back to the ready position with the Harries.

Either way - I can't emphasize practice, practice, practice. Whatever method you use - practice it!

-Steve


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## djblank87 (Feb 6, 2008)

Beastmaster, very good work. :thumbsup:

Some of the holds bring back memories......


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## Patsplace (Feb 6, 2008)

The Harries looks like the most natural to use and assume and while in it you are not compromising your hold on either your pistol or your light. 

The Ayoob stuff looks good with a side switch but quite a bunch of them seem like you'd turn your light on and leave it on. Yikes!!

Intersting stuff. I've been thinking, since I discovered this site, to spend some time at the range going through some "fire and maneouver" stuff with the lights out, and Zot, here's some rudimentry instruction. 

And that's a good thing.

Thanks,
Pat


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## nosuchagency (Feb 6, 2008)

very nice, beast. thx for taking time to post pics.


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## SilverFox (Feb 6, 2008)

Hello Steve,

The TigerLight has its switch on the side and toward the rear of the light.

Any comment on a method for using this type of switch orientation?

Tom


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## Hobbit712 (Feb 6, 2008)

Lightraven said:


> I just went through my agency's annual night fire training today that is simply a Surefire Low Light course complete with Surefire powerpoint slides. Only 5 official techniques were shown, and the Surefire/Rogers doesn't work with an issued Stinger, so basically 4.
> 
> I've got techniques I like better than others, but in the field, when doing it for real, I really don't know what I'll do. It is too situation specific. The nature of most self defense shootings is a reaction shot to being attacked and frequently the gun must be unholstered first. At that point, technique sort of goes out the window in order to put rounds on target.
> 
> ...



Excellent posts from both Lightraven and Beastmaster!!

I have practiced at least 3 or 4 of these over my years on the job. And as Lightraven alludes to, I dont know what I will do if I get into a shoot situation. Hopefully, it never happens! I have come close though.

The situation may determine the method as well. Do you know where the bad guy is or are you looking for him? A lot of variations.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

For that one - I'd do these:

Modified Ayoob - use the thumb of the gun hand to press the light switch of the flashlight in the support hand

Chapman - just make sure that the head of the flashlight doesn't intrude near the muzzle of the pistol too much

Harries - doable but you don't get the ability to rest the light against your forearm and your support hand bears all the weight of the light.

The most effective one - the Puckett. You get support from your shoulder and it's triggerable with your thumb. Hold it in an ice pick hold with your thumb near your shoulder and on the switch.

-Steve



SilverFox said:


> Hello Steve,
> 
> The TigerLight has its switch on the side and toward the rear of the light.
> 
> ...


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## SilverFox (Feb 6, 2008)

Hello Steve,

Thanks.

Tom


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## Lightraven (Feb 6, 2008)

Thank you. In my training with a well experienced retired LAPD SWAT and Metro firearms instructor, he has a similar program to Surefire, but has all the experience and knowledge that I don't. He used Harries for a real shooting and he likes it best. In my opinion, Harries comes closest to the goal of a steadier gun hold and I generally like it, for known threats and searches. His night fire training is difficult--you may not even fire a shot, let alone hit your target because of the time constraints.

I remember clearly doing a Puckett--what we call chin index--for a vehicle pursuit that bailed out into the desert at night. This is probably my favorite, overall. The light and muzzle are on target very quickly, even when the threat is not directly in front of your body, the sights and gun are illuminated so they are quicker to pick up than tritium dots, there is less mental confusion over which hand controls the trigger and which controls the flashlight switch. It can work with a retention position (gun held against rib cage above holster) for possible ambushes at contact range. This hold is the most likely one in general flashlight use, so drawing a gun and shooting requires no added manipulation of the light. Gun and light are independent, so you can lower the gun while maintaining light on target--which I did during my bailout when I identified 'no-shoots' in my light.

The drawbacks are simple. You shoot one handed. This won't be as accurate as steadier two handed grips. The light is near your head, which isn't protected by body armor, so any shots fired at your light are highly risky of a serious or fatal head wound.

To Beastmaster and others:

What is the school of thought on a rapid attachment of a weaponlight to a handgun before hostilities? At least one writer in a gun magazine (might have been Tiger McGee) says this is intolerably unsafe. One of my range officer friends yesterday brought up this point, too, but more as a caution.


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## greenLED (Feb 6, 2008)

BeastMaster - great job with all those pics.

A few random comments since my longer post got lost last time:

I learned to do the FBI with the arm outstretched. You can do "hi" or "low" positions (above head level and close to waist level). You gotta train yourself to bend your wrist inwards or the light will not point where you're aiming (at least with my grip).

A person at the place I train broke her hand doing the Keller as the slide hit the back of her hand. :green:

As you go through some of those pics, note that some were "designed" for when most "tactical" lights were large and had side switches. 

Bottomline is, don't get attached to a single technique. Just because the Harries offers the most stable shooting platform (at least for me), doesn't mean it's perfect or the only one I'll practice. Once you have an additional object in your hands, gun control (no pun intended) will become challenging and you have to train to over come that weakness. 

Practice a few tech, as some don't work properly depending on how you're moving and what you're doing at the moment.


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## Crenshaw (Feb 6, 2008)

A rogers/surefire grip is very good for white wall hunting in my experience.... good job on the pics Steve 

Crenshaw


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

Lightraven said:


> What is the school of thought on a rapid attachment of a weaponlight to a handgun before hostilities? At least one writer in a gun magazine (might have been Tiger McGee) says this is intolerably unsafe. One of my range officer friends yesterday brought up this point, too, but more as a caution.



I don't like it. Anything crossing near the muzzle of the handgun is a bad thing. It's also a fine motor skill too - you have to index the rails and lock the light into place.

I'd rather use a duty pistol/holster combination that can handle a weaponlight to begin with. Problem solved there.

-Steve


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## djblank87 (Feb 6, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> I don't like it. Anything crossing near the muzzle of the handgun is a bad thing. It's also a fine motor skill too - you have to index the rails and lock the light into place.
> 
> I'd rather use a duty pistol/holster combination that can handle a weaponlight to begin with. Problem solved there.
> 
> -Steve


 
I agree Steve, under duress the odds of removing a light from your duty belt/pocket etc, then to get the light set on the rails and lock into place with a threat in front of you.......... = Not likley in the real world. 

As you said Steve, using a light in a pistol/holster combination is the best bet for some individuals. It worked for me best to use the pistol/holster combo.


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## Supernam (Feb 6, 2008)

I agree also. You wouldn't want to be in a high tension situation at night and have to mount a light to your pistol. A dedicated weapon light is perfect in my opinion. And for those that are against having a gun pointed in the same direction as your light during searches, who says you can't have a handheld light AND a weapon mounted light?


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## Patriot (Feb 6, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> I don't like it. Anything crossing near the muzzle of the handgun is a bad thing. It's also a fine motor skill too - you have to index the rails and lock the light into place.
> 
> I'd rather use a duty pistol/holster combination that can handle a weaponlight to begin with. Problem solved there.
> 
> -Steve




Yes I 100% agree with what Steve said here. If you're going to use a weaponlight it needs to be mounted all the time while carrying or when placed somewhere "at the ready." The firearm should always be unloaded, empty and with the action open before attaching a light or laser.

When without a weaponlight, which is rare, I mainly practice the Thorpe or Chapman method's these days. When I carry a firearm I also use my "tactical" light on a lanyard. If I'm investigating something I'll use the hand held light. If it should escalate into a deadly force situation, I'll drop the tac light and draw the pistol with weaponlight. 

Today's weapon lights are so good and so intuitive to operate, especially Surefire's, that most of my low light practice is now done with them. I only practice "separate light" techniques so that I have a back-up method in the unlikely case that I should be forced to use it.


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## Beastmaster (Feb 6, 2008)

Bringing up lanyards - they do have their uses too - especially with weapon clearing and reloading.

This is one thing that I do need to mod on my Novatacs. Lanyards.....

-Steve


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## Patsplace (Feb 8, 2008)

Bottomline is, don't get attached to a single technique. Just because the Harries offers the most stable shooting platform (at least for me), doesn't mean it's perfect or the only one I'll practice. ~ GreenLed

Good point. It's so easy to just do the one that feels right and ignore the rest. Upside is you get to play with more flashlights and shoot more, and that's a good thing.

Pat


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## depusm12 (Feb 8, 2008)

I use the Harries and FBI techniques myself.


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## JLJ (Feb 8, 2008)

This is an excellent thread. Most comprehensive list I've seen of the different techniques and complete with pictures.

One thing I rarely see addressed is firearm presentation with a light. The comments about weapon mounted lights came closest to addressing the issue of any of the cross handed techniques. In a stressful situation (potential gunfight) you will be bringing the flashlight hand across your gun hand. There is a great potential for shooting your own hand.

Those of you who were taught these methods, were you taught from holster presentation with the light?

JLJ


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## Beastmaster (Feb 8, 2008)

JLJ said:


> This is an excellent thread. Most comprehensive list I've seen of the different techniques and complete with pictures.
> 
> One thing I rarely see addressed is firearm presentation with a light. The comments about weapon mounted lights came closest to addressing the issue of any of the cross handed techniques. In a stressful situation (potential gunfight) you will be bringing the flashlight hand across your gun hand. There is a great potential for shooting your own hand.
> 
> ...



I'll address some of this from my own personal experience.

When I went through the academy, one of the things that was stressed over and over again was holster draw practice. From my instructor days, it takes at least 500 times for you to ingrain it into your muscle memory.

Part of a proper holster draw requires the need to place your support hand in a way that it does NOT cross the axis of the barrel.

On the Sam Browne duty belt (or the Batman utility belt as some people call it), I purposefully placed my SureFire on my left side, near where the leg and hip meet. This allowed me to draw the SureFire at the same time as my pistol, and my support hand rests on my belly button until my pistol clears the level/height of my belly button. Then my support hand can come up and punch forward with the pistol hand.

I've practiced the Harries (the most), SureFire/Rogers (second most), Thorpe (third most) and the FBI technique until all 4 are second nature. To complicate matters, I also have to practice with each of my carry methods (Fanny pack/strong side hip/IWB/pocket holster/ankle carry) as well.

On a side note - I'll pass a story on to you all involving muscle memory and how effective those 500 practices at a minimum will do for you in the future.

Back in 1994, I went through my first major defensive tactics class as an instructor candidate. Some of the techniques in the class included walking into the muzzle of a pistol (to know where the gun is and also place it out of battery), gun takeaways, and other fun stuff. Some of the stuff taught back then was somewhat radical in nature, but effective.

The purpose of making instructors take a whole bunchaton of things was to familiarize them with enough items so that they can answer nearly every "what if" out there.

Fast forward to today. I practice a rather unusual martial art called Krav Maga. It's a rather brutal Israeli combat arts method that teaches both standardized techniques and the thought processes needed to do unusual enough things to make someone survive attacks. Like my passing the first level test by making an instructor/wall sandwich. It helps that I outweighed the instructor by about 60 pounds.

The local studio brings in one of the top instructors from Los Angeles to teach a special weekend class. Some of the stuff involves gun and weapon encounters.

The instructor, for whatever reason, uses me as an example student. I'm supposed to bar the pistol arm, beat up the instructor with some strikes, take away the pistol (a red painted REAL Beretta 92F with a plugged barrel) and run like hell.

Well, I don't. I bar the arm, hit the instructor with hits I was trained in back in 1994, then I take away the pistol, give two good solid slingshots of the slide, and come up in a high ready position with the Beretta aimed center of mass on the guest instructor...

Imagine a dojo full of silent people. The guest instructor looks at me, and then asks which Law Enforcement Krav class I went through and when, because they don't teach what I just did in the civilian classes. And the local instructors are all saying to ignore what Steve just did...

Come to find out that some of the techniques that I learned back in 1994 was early versions of the Krav LE methods taught to LAPD during the era of Darryl Gates and passed along to other agencies as an effective method for defensive tactics. And that muscle memory even to this day still are ingrained in me that it's now reflexive in nature.

So drawing practice will hold everyone in good stead. Just like the pistol - drawing practice with the flashlight also will help immensely. 

-Steve


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## greenLED (Feb 8, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> ...(a red painted REAL Beretta 92F with a plugged barrel)...


Not to take this off topic, but don't they have trainer guns available??


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## Crenshaw (Feb 8, 2008)

Ive actually heard of Krav Maga, something i might actually want to learn at some point.. I heard its one of the most brutally efficient styles of martial arts. And that Batman uses it alot..

Crenshaw


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## Beastmaster (Feb 8, 2008)

greenLED said:


> Not to take this off topic, but don't they have trainer guns available??



Sure do. ASP and many others make Red and Blue plastic resin versions of popular pistols.

In my case that I mentioned about the class, the guest instructor also does LEO training. LEO training uses red/blue resin guns, but eventually, you HAVE to train with the real thing or something really close. 

For example - for years high end tactical training required the use of goggles, body armor, and Simunition with specially modded pistols.

Well, Airsoft has started to take the place of that. You can get hit with Airsoft, only require the need for eye protection, and if you get hit, you'll feel it. In fact, I can't get locally any Glock 19 sized/shaped clone Airsoft pistols unless I put myself onto a 3-5 week long waiting list. I have one - but it's nice to have another one.

The training with Airsoft Glock clones accomplishes a lot of things. You get the identical weight and feel of a Glock. Training ammo plus the green gas is cheaper. You can shoot others with it without the need for a ton of protective gear. And you train people that if they get hit, continue the fight until the fight is over. You know you get hit too - the green gas powered Airsofts will leave a dime sized welt if you get hit on exposed skin.

Airsoft nowadays is also good for live fire takeaways. Let's face it - when you do a gun takeaway - the gun WILL go off. Period. You want it to go off either on your body armor (bad but acceptable) or away from you and others (harder to control but better for your body in the long run...and if you're not wearing body armor - you have to do it that way).

Well, after the gun goes off (with your hand blocking the ejection port or on the slide so it jams), you then beat the snot out of the attacker, take the gun away (breaking fingers as you do it), and you now have possession of the gun.

You *have* to do a malfunction drill, which includes slingshotting the slide twice. Then you come up on target. If the target is still a threat, start live fire until the threat is no longer a threat.

You can't do that type of drill with the red or blue resin guns. You HAVE to have and use something real. G17/G19 Airsoft clones allow you to do drills like that (without killing someone's hand though), and allow the trainee to follow through completely from beginning of the threat to ending the threat.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Feb 8, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> Ive actually heard of Krav Maga, something i might actually want to learn at some point.. I heard its one of the most brutally efficient styles of martial arts. And that Batman uses it alot..
> 
> Crenshaw



Krav is fun. The part that I like about it is that Krav utilizes some natural body movements and leverage to gain advantages.

Forex, if someone is strangling you - grab their wrists and do a "superman" (throw your chest out and rip your shirt open type of movement). Chest muscles versus thumbs - no contest.

Now - I'm not a small guy (5' 11"/260lbs) and I'm pretty muscular (22" calves, 23" biceps, size 52 jacket). Most people don't mess with me to begin with.

I worry about the 1% that will want to mess with me. So I prep myself with all the necessary tools to be able to protect myself - ranging from hand to hand (hence the Krav) to lights to pistols and long arms.

There are Krav studios that are all over the world - I'm sure there's even one in your area.

And yes - a lot of the Krav techniques can be integrated with a flashlight for defensive and offensive methods. Overhand strikes (harder to defend) that include a crenelated bezel flashlight is not only effective - it's deadly.

-Steve


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## Templar223 (Sep 22, 2008)

As a veteran firearm instructor, I'll second everything Beastie's said in this thread. Very well done, including the photos. (Don't you have a "blue gun" though?)

Well, well done!

The bottom line: everyone's different and if you find one of these that works for you reasonably well, use it and practice it (not necessarily in that order). 

In our classes, we usually hit the highlights of some of the more major ones, but I'm partial to the Harries technique because it's what I've learned and got ingrained in terms of muscle memory.

In the experimenting I've done with some of the other techniques over time, I've found some of these to be uncomfortable, incompatible with the lights I carry, or incompatible with me in terms of instinctively knowing where the light will be pointed or other issues.

Basically, everything goes to Hades once you get that first shot off, so make it a good one or use two hands and have a tac light (which is the "best" grip there is, unfortunately it's one more piece of gear to carry around with you and your gun has to be compatible (and my old school guns aren't)).

Another downside is that people will use a weapon light as a flashlight. Apparently, attachment of a weapon light can cause temporary but complete amnesia regarding all previous muzzle control training.

John


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## naggalowmo (Sep 23, 2008)

Awsome thread and information! :thumbsup:
I recently picked up a C2 so and seeing the Rogers method on this thread lead me to this link on the surefire website that also has some great info: 

surefire


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## Stephan_L (Sep 23, 2008)

Hey everybody, 

a short note from good old Germany! 

On Police-Akademy in Nordrhein - Westfalen (the area around Colonge and Dortmund), students are taught most of all the FBI and the Harries techniques. But that depends on the instructor. 

I took a closer look into the low-light-applications and took the following techniques as the major ones: 
- FBI / modified FBI by SureFire (mainly for searching missions)
- neck index / here called: Puckett
- Harries 
- SureFire / Rogers

I trained a bit with all of them. But the most comfortable are still FBI (standart and modified) and Harries! 
Neck index is used when searching an area in the FBI-style without using a weapon and then suddenly draw the weapon. By using the Neck Index I avoid a crossing of my light hand and the "line of fire". 
I - personally - do not use SureFire / Rogers. But I showed them to some of my parnters who have lights with a "compat ring" or similar. They liked the style! 

I also trained in a circle at home when my wife was at work and with a red-gun: 
Searching the house with the gun holstered, using the FBI (standart / modified) technique. 
Drawing the gun and using the neck index technique. 
Then switching to Harries technique and
switching on to SureFire / Rogers technique. 
Finally moving on with the FBI method (standart and modified) before holstering the weapon and start from the beginning. 

First I trained this circle static, the while moving forward, backward and lateral. Finally I tried the moves while searching my house! It was fun. 
I try to organize a training session for some of my partners with this topic! I bet this is going to be a great fun! 

Just my 2 € ct. 

Stephan
P.S.: There are some nice Videos from the SureFire - Institute on Youtube about this topic: 
Low Light Technic 1: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga6ECYv16Ac
Low Light Technic 2: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9ObSKdP1AI
Low Light Technic 3: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=tGcjIwZupH8
Strategos International: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=EbjzTi0yGWs (same people). 

Enjoy it! - Stephan


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## Raytech (Sep 23, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> I don't like it. Anything crossing near the muzzle of the handgun is a bad thing. It's also a fine motor skill too - you have to index the rails and lock the light into place.
> 
> I'd rather use a duty pistol/holster combination that can handle a weaponlight to begin with. Problem solved there.
> 
> -Steve


 
Especially if you are using a revolver. Revolvers spew lead and burning powder out the sides between the cylinder and forcing cone.


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## Chrontius (Sep 23, 2008)

This isn't just painful, it can cause severe injuries - like, you'll be going to the ER to have your finger replaced severe, depending on how heavy a caliber you're firing when you make your oopsie.


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## mcmc (Jan 11, 2009)

Neat thread. I'm just a computer guy and have never even fired a gun, but this thread was a very interesting read.

Thanks Beastmaster!

djblank, I take it you made it past academy and are on your rounds in LV? Last we spoke you were preparing to go to academy =)


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## Policetacteam (Jan 11, 2009)

Great thread! I am not a fan of the Puckett technique because it places the light in such close proximity of your head. Having gone through a few low light schools I can attest that people will instinctively shoot towards the light! Almost every time!!! The F.B.I. method is far better because you are holding the light at a distance and away from your head. When we do entries, during training sessions, we try to always vary the light in different positions and away from your person. Either standing, kneeling, or modified prone.


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## corrections operator (Jan 11, 2009)

Very informative thread, thank you!


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## TMedina (Jan 11, 2009)

There was a fairly comprehensive article from Strategos International - it used to be online and I used to have a copy, neither is true now it seems. But Surefire hosts an exerpt here handheld flashlight techniques

The NRA hosts a similar paper, if somewhat abbreviated here NRA article.

The variety of techniques illustrates the need to know your equipment - and what stances are and are not feasible with the light you're carrying.

You may not have the luxury of being able to dictate what equipment you have available at the time.

-Trevor


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## Jeffa (Jan 12, 2009)

My favorite primary lights to search with are the Pelican 7060 and the Streamlight Dual LED C4 because they have the dual switches enabling me to perform any of the flashlight techniques. 

This was a well thought out and presented thread.:thumbsup:


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2009)

Policetacteam said:


> Great thread! I am not a fan of the Puckett technique because it places the light in such close proximity of your head. Having gone through a few low light schools *I can attest that people will instinctively shoot towards the light! Almost every time!!!* The F.B.I. method is far better because you are holding the light at a distance and away from your head. When we do entries, during training sessions, we try to always vary the light in different positions and away from your person. Either standing, kneeling, or modified prone.



This is the second time this point has been raised in this thread and in many articles previously written on low light tactics, it would appear to be the major detraction from many (if not all) of the previously displayed front-of-body-techniques, would anybody care to expand on this further? :thinking:



BTW nice work (and thread) Beastmaster :thumbsup:


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## greenLED (Jan 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> would anybody care to expand on this further?


I haven't "seen the elephant", as they say, but maybe I can take a stab at it...

There are several "threat indicators". That is, cues that can reveal (among other things) the position of a threat; these may be sound, movement, smell, etc. These obviously work both ways and a person in a defensive position should be aware of which of these cues they may be projecting. 

Under low light, you can add light as a powerful indicator of "something" going on. It's pretty obvious, really. Somebody has to be activating the light, after all. If you're a BG, the obvious thing to do is shoot at the light, in hopes of hitting you. In every single FoF scenario I've been in, the BG has shot at the light.

If you're the one holding the light, it's important to be aware of this and find was to minimize the risk and increase your tactical advantage. You definitely don't want to get shot at! As a lawfully armed citizen, you also are required to verify what you are shooting at, so it's a fine balance between survival tactics, and the legal requirements of any self defense situation where lethal force is in place. "Light management" is critical.

I'm not sure if that answers your question...


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## baterija (Jan 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> This is the second time this point has been raised in this thread and in many articles previously written on low light tactics, it would appear to be the major detraction from many (if not all) of the previously displayed front-of-body-techniques, would anybody care to expand on this further? :thinking:



The front of body techniques have an advantage of being 2 handed. That allows more accurate shots, and even more importantly, quicker follow on shots. (Even if the first shot caused a lethal injury it does NOT mean the target stops shooting right away. ) With enough training it's possible to still be accurate and fast with a technique only utilizing one hand on the weapon. So there is some trading of better defense using the FBI technique for better offense...unless you have the same amount of training time and experience as Policetacteam.

If the threat is not to the immediate front (you are looking in the wrong place and he's got a clear line of sight to you), the bad guy shooting for the light held extended in front of your body actually moves the center of the shot grouping away from more lethal targets on your body.

Each technique has it's strengths and weaknesses.


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## TMedina (Jan 13, 2009)

Bater hit the nail on the head -

Most of the techniques featuring a 'hands together' grip emphasize:

1. Reinforced grip on the weapon to optimize control
2. The light is, generally, tracking in the same direction as the weapon - this improves target identification as well as aiming: gun and light held together, bullet will go somewhere in the direction of the beam.
3. Muscle fatigue is reduced as the load is shared.
4. Movement of the handgun/flashlight is instinctive - one follows the other.

The obvious drawback - the bad guy (BG) can probably pick out your location and respond in kind. You're painting a large, glowing bullseye on yourself in the darkness.

The hands-apart methods: 

1. Sacrifices a reinforced grip, forcing the shooter to engage with only one hand on the weapon. Accuracy and weapon control are reduced.
2. Muscle fatigue is more likely to become a factor with the hands are working apart - from holding a gun up and firing to holding a flashlight aloft, either at the chin/neck or away from the body.
3. The shooter must concentrate on moving the flashlight and handgun as individual objects - potentially causing confusion under stress.

The obvious benefit - a BG shooting at the light is unlikely to hit center mass if the light isn't between the BG and your center mass.

-Trevor


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## Lightraven (Jan 13, 2009)

This thread was one of the best on this topic.

I currently wear a First Light Liberator velcroed to my body armor vest, facing forward. Shooting at the light means shooting at the vest. But since I typically wear night vision goggles where it's really dark, my flashlight use anymore is mostly post-arrest.

Here's my thread on low light tactics. 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/182540

I encourage other LEOs to think outside the box (of flashlight holds). There are a lot of ways to locate and classify the bad guy without giving him a person to shoot at.


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## foxtrot29 (Jan 13, 2009)

I've been trained using the FBI method, in which the light is held away from the body.

As I've been taught, one reason for this is that in a low light scenario, using the light for only short busts and moving around to avoid a suspect knowing your exact location -- when the light is on, a suspect is more likely to aim at the light source and shoot, rather than trying to guess if your body is to the left or right of the light.

Also (and I guess this is only because I'm used to it now), I find this way you don't inadvertantly point your gun at something you don't want to shoot when the light is on, whereas with some of the other methods you have to point the gun at what you are illuminating. 

Not knocking other methods, just giving an spin on the FBI method, and why I was told we use it.


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## [email protected] (Jan 14, 2009)

Thank you for all your informative & enlightening (pun intended) responses much appreciated


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## TMedina (Jan 17, 2009)

Not to resurrect the dead, but SF has a new "Law Enforcement" catalog geared (sorry) specifically to LEOs.

Not much by way of new kit, but the informational blurb at the beginning is an interesting read and good food for thought.

You can find it hosted on the SF site here.

-Trevor


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## Policetacteam (Jan 18, 2009)

As previously stated, this is a very imformative thread. I find it interesting to read all of the different methods / techniques that others are using. My only suggestion to those that don't train on a regular basis is to try them all if possible. See which technique works best for the gear you have. What works for one may not work for another! I am always trying new techniques to add something to the toolbox. Thanks for all the great ideas!!


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## greenLED (Jan 18, 2009)

Policetacteam said:


> As previously stated, this is a very imformative thread. I find it interesting to read all of the different methods / techniques that others are using. My only suggestion to those that don't train on a regular basis is to try them all if possible. See which technique works best for the gear you have. What works for one may not work for another! I am always trying new techniques to add something to the toolbox. Thanks for all the great ideas!!



...and don't get fixated on a single technique. You may need to use a couple different ones depending on the circumstances.


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## baterija (Jan 18, 2009)

greenLED said:


> ...and don't get fixated on a single technique. You may need to use a couple different ones depending on the circumstances.



And the converse for the typical non-LEO/military member - don't get so fixated on knowing them all, and knowing which is most appropriate in a situation, that your limited training time makes you ineffective with them all. 

The "best" technique in a situation is worse than an okay one you can execute well, quickly, and under stress. A typical home gun owner is looking at a primary task of defending themselves in stationary position preplanned in their home. Secondarily they need to be able to move to protect family or themselves if caught out of position at home. Someone legally allowed to carry concealed is looking at legal requirements to break contact if possible before using deadly force; a technique that works standing/moving in your home may be good enough for that situation. Worst case you are looking at 3 techniques you can pick in advance. Best case you get it down to 1 or 2 techniques that you can master for the situations you are most likely to need them.

Think in advance of the significant emotional experiences. Experiment with the techniques that seem to fit your most likely engagements. Then prioritize. Start at the top of that list and work down. Maybe you get pretty good at one or two. If you have more time to dedicate then you can expand into other techniques (while sustaining training of the higher priority ones.) Think beforehand, execute during!

"The best is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire
"Simplify, simplify." - Thoreau
"A good plan violently executed right now is far better than a perfect plan executed next week." -- George S. Patton


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## greenLED (Jan 18, 2009)

baterija said:


> And the converse for the typical non-LEO/military member - don't get so fixated on knowing them all, and knowing which is most appropriate in a situation, that your limited training time makes you ineffective with them all.


That's an excellent point.


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## lumen aeternum (Oct 8, 2012)

photo links dead. nra link dead.


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## TMedina (Oct 8, 2012)

Given that the posts are several years old, that isn't surprising. You might have better luck doing a Google search using the specific techniques you're looking for as keywords. 

I'm at work, so I'm going to use a bit of discretion what I search for on an office computer.


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## BillSWPA (Oct 23, 2012)

A few random comments.

Any of the 2-hand light handgun techniques work best if you apply only light pressure to the gun hand with the light hand. Light pressure is remarkably stabilizing. However, anything more than light pressure causes more accuracy problems than it solves.

Indoors, when you light up any of the lights most on this forum like, you have lit up the entire room. You are lit up regardless of whether the light is near your body or not. Indoors, I typically use a simple neck index unless going around a corner. Outside, I definitely prefer the FBI technique to keep the light away from my body.

Going around a corner, I often look high while keeping the light low, or look low while keeping the light high. This is where the Surefire Z series really shines. Regardless of whether going around a right or left corner, high or low, nothing is awkward.

If using a light mounted on a pistol, try to have a grip-activated pressure switch. If not, try to manipulate the switch with your support hand.


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## whiteoakjoe (Nov 2, 2012)

I'm a Harries guy myself, went to the acaenmy in 92'. I like the 2xAA's for this. I never did like the 123a's as much for this technique. (I still have my origional lazer products 6P I trained with.) but wish I would have had a 4/7 Quark AA^2 back in the day, had to purchase all those 123a's out of pocket.


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## jon_slider (Aug 24, 2018)

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...ues-take-two&p=2345852&viewfull=1#post2345852



Beastmaster said:


> Next up - Rear switch only methods.
> 
> 4) SureFire/Rogers. Also known as the cigar or syringe method. This method allows you to have a somewhat two-handed grip on the pistol and still control the light at the same time.
> 
> ...



Too bad all the pics are gone.

I wonder which technique Hogokansatsukan originated?

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...verse&p=5011684&highlight=novatac#post5011684



Hogokansatsukan said:


> I met Henry at Novatac. I was a firearms instructor and a flashaholic. I had some of the older HDS lights, and when I figured out Novatac was in Tucson, I called and asked to stop by Mecca. So... I stopped by... then I went out for 2 weeks of firearms training and used the HDS. Came up with a technique that worked real well with the little light, and stopped by again to show the Novatac folks. Ended up getting hired as the production supervisor (it was a very small crew) and I worked nights after my day job. Was at SHOT with Novatac in January 2008 where there was a hug poster with my ugly mug and another firearms trainer who was with Tucson PD demonstrating the new flashlight technique (that Surefire renamed and unveiled a year later as their own) This was the end of 2007. I was still at Novatac after Henry left, and got to witness the... fun, up until they moved to CA.
> I was at Henry's today, but I couldn't stay long as my girlfriend was waiting in the car to be taken to ICU. She works there. I figured the way my life has gone, It doesn't hurt to have an ICU RN as a girlfriend!


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