# CFL replacement question



## Lightmeup (Jan 15, 2007)

Recently the CFL bulb in one of my lamps started flickering intermittently. I have been using CFLs for the past year, but have never had one burn out. So, my question is, besides just going totally dead, do these things exhibit other symptoms when they are crapping out? I put a new bulb in the lamp, but it seems to flicker sometimes too, so I'm wondering what is going on. Could it be a power problem, or the lamp? Any ideas?


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## jayflash (Jan 15, 2007)

Yes, old CFLs can cycle quickly and flicker before they completely die. An intermittent connection anywhere from the circuit breaker or receptacle to the lamp base could also cause your problem. Barring that, power quality (low voltage, spikes) or co-incidence (another bad CFL) are possibilities.


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## lpcmidst128 (Jan 17, 2007)

CFLs overtime will get a bit dimmer say a couple years later compared to when they are brand new. You could try to put a regular incandescent lamp there to see if that flickers, if it does it could be a bad connection somewhere on the lamp. I would also try to plug a few other CFLs in there to see if it flickers. Also try pluggin the lamp in other outlet. By they way when some CFLs when installed for the first time it takes a few minutes to break it or could be they need a while for it to warm up. Newer CFLs should not have this problem. I know magnetic ballast tend to flicker but I believe almost all CFLs are electronic. Good luck.


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## IgNITEor (Feb 7, 2007)

On the subject of CFL replacement, does anyone remember a thread somewhere about comparing standard CFL twist lamps and the more spendy high power-factor versions? We know that a standard 13-watt actually draws 26-watts of true power. Still a lotta light from a small package either way.
Just wondering.....


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## brickbat (Feb 7, 2007)

IgNITEor said:


> ...We know that a standard 13-watt actually draws 26-watts of true power......



Careful. A 13 W CFL uses 13 W of true power, as in "power that you pay for". I've measured them, and know this to be true. They typically operate at about a 0.6 power factor, and thus use 22 VA. But so what? Power companies bill for Watt-hours, not VAs. (unless you are a demand-metered, industrial customer...)


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## James S (Feb 8, 2007)

I've taken apart (broken  ) most of the bulbs I"ve had fail over the years. The most common mode of failure seems to be the big capacitor. If you really wanted to you could probably replace that if it was bulged. I've even seen some split open and dry out. I've also seen other small coils split open and browning on the transformer and other parts from heat.

The most interesting mode of flickering failure I ever saw was in an inexpensive brand of CF lights that used to be carried by Wall Mart and now even they wont carry them anymore  I popped the top off that to find that the power lead to the bulb wasn't actually even soldered. It was just wrapped a few times around a post on the board so of course the post and wire corroded until the connection because bad.

I dont buy cheap CFL's anymore and while I've had a few of the expensive ones go bad in the first few days, some infant mortality, I returned those and so far have lost none through actual usage.


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## IgNITEor (Feb 9, 2007)

_...We know that a standard 13-watt actually draws 26-watts of true power......_


Yeah, that was mis-stated. 13 Watts for the lamp, 22 Volt Amps for the lamp & ballast, with some of the reactive losses producing heat in the base. What we don't pay for from the meter reading we will from the residential rates as the electric utility cannot recover all the losses.

Thanks for re-asserting PF= PT/PA x 100

How about the proposal for California to go all CFL?! Imagine all the noise from the Dollar Store




semi UL springlamps!


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## LightingGeek (Feb 9, 2007)

Are you running this CF lamp on a dimmer? Most do not tolerate any kind of dimmer, electronic or otherwise. You also may want to check the socket. Unscrew the lamp one turn, then retighten until it's firmly seated. Turn on the heat in your house (all fluorescent technology is sensitive to heat).


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## AndyTiedye (Feb 9, 2007)

I suppose we need to use the VA figure when sizing a generator or solar power system.


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## Mark_Larson (Feb 9, 2007)

LightingGeek said:


> Are you running this CF lamp on a dimmer? Most do not tolerate any kind of dimmer, electronic or otherwise. You also may want to check the socket. Unscrew the lamp one turn, then retighten until it's firmly seated. Turn on the heat in your house (all fluorescent technology is sensitive to heat).


There go the energy savings!


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## IgNITEor (Feb 9, 2007)

.._Turn on the heat in your house (all fluorescent technology is sensitive to heat)._

We use springlamps from TCP. I like their selection. Haven't tried their dimmables yet as they have only a few to offer with some listed as Energy Star. 

Since heat, or lack of rather, effects starting these lamps, would there be a savings in both energy used & one's overall patience if they were kept at maximum dim prior to use at full power? I know the exterior lamps here take 10-15 minutes to reach full output at near freezing temps.


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## 2xTrinity (Feb 10, 2007)

IgNITEor said:


> .._Turn on the heat in your house (all fluorescent technology is sensitive to heat)._
> 
> We use springlamps from TCP. I like their selection. Haven't tried their dimmables yet as they have only a few to offer with some listed as Energy Star.
> 
> Since heat, or lack of rather, effects starting these lamps, would there be a savings in both energy used & one's overall patience if they were kept at maximum dim prior to use at full power? I know the exterior lamps here take 10-15 minutes to reach full output at near freezing temps.


If you are running the outdoor lights on a timer, you're probably best off starting the lights up ~20 minutes before it usually gets dark, that way they will already be warmed up before they need to be used. Another idea that I've thought would be good for outdoor lighting would be a dimmable CFL system using motion sensors -- leave the lights on on the dim setting all the time (to keep them warm, and produce enough light to let peopel know that you are home etc.), then ramp it up to full if there is motion detected. Most of the time the lamps would be at ~20% brightness so you'd save a lot of money.

If you're talking about indoor lights though, it may be more efficient to dim them all the way down than to turn them completely off if you are going to be out of a room for a brief period of time, withuot having to suffer through the warm-up problem again later.


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## James S (Feb 10, 2007)

Or just experiment with a few different brands. I have some that start up really dim, and others that startup at a more significant proportion of their final brightness.

I recently tried to replace the 65 watt flood lights in my wifes office with 90 watt equivalent CF floods. But she HATEd them because she couldn't walk in there and turn on the lights and see anything. even though they were ultimately much nicer.

So I went to the hardware store friday and got reflective inserts instead of the black ones that are for par bulbs and them put in just regular GE 100 watt CF bulbs. They come on at maybe 70% of their final brightness and are completely workable in there for her.


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## 2xTrinity (Feb 10, 2007)

James S said:


> Or just experiment with a few different brands. I have some that start up really dim, and others that startup at a more significant proportion of their final brightness.
> 
> I recently tried to replace the 65 watt flood lights in my wifes office with 90 watt equivalent CF floods. But she HATEd them because she couldn't walk in there and turn on the lights and see anything. even though they were ultimately much nicer.
> 
> So I went to the hardware store friday and got reflective inserts instead of the black ones that are for par bulbs and them put in just regular GE 100 watt CF bulbs. They come on at maybe 70% of their final brightness and are completely workable in there for her.


Those flood bubls come on dimmer than the standards because they are designed to be operated at a higher operating temperature. The components inside the ballast are rated for higher temperature, and the phosphor/fill gas mixture is designed to prodcue its maximum light at higher temperature as those recessed fixtrues trap in a lot of heat. 

You'll find that as you leave those lights running, they will shift toward being dimmer and cooler white as they heat up, while the ones designed to be used in recessed fixtures start up that way, and shift toward being better. That's also so far the only way I've burned out CFLs -- I left a standard CFL on overnight by accident in a fixture light that and found it cooked in the morning (though granted, it was a crappy brand anyway). It had maybe 50 hours total use on it.


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