# What's better to glue wood? Elmer's or Super Glue?



## Trashman (Jul 13, 2007)

My Table Tennis racket is coming apart at the handle. I'm wondering which would be better, Elmer's Glue or Super Glue? I didn't have either while I was playing, so I just taped it and put rubber bands around the tape. The paddle is still very functional and I really don't see any need to buy another. (Not to mention, the blade I'm using runs around $45 (for the blade alone, no rubbers)) I know there are going to be bunch of CPFers that are experienced wood workers and handy men and will probably be able to give me a definitive answer. Also, the racket will sometimes be in my car, which, during the summer, can probably reach temperatures of 130 degrees Fahrenheit, so keep this in mind, in case it may be a deciding factor. 

Thanks in advance, for any advice that may be given.


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## raggie33 (Jul 13, 2007)

wood glue for sure


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## WNG (Jul 13, 2007)

Super Glue isn't designed for porous materials.
If your paddle is laminated wood, then wood glue will work best.


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## parnass (Jul 13, 2007)

WNG said:


> Super Glue isn't designed for porous materials.
> ...



That depends on whether you use the gel or liquid.

I have used both Super Glue gel and Elmer's carpenter's glue for wood projects. The main application for using Super Glue on wood is speed. It will set within just a few minutes versus 12 to 24 hours for carpenter's glue. 

Cost is a factor, too. Elmer's glue is less expensive so it is more economical for larger projects.


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## Gadget Guy (Jul 13, 2007)

For wood to wood, Gorilla glue is the best. I couldn't break the seam that I tested.


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## knot (Jul 13, 2007)

I don't think superglue is good when subjected to shock or impact. I think it's brittle.


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## Trashman (Jul 13, 2007)

knot said:


> I don't think superglue is good when subjected to shock or impact. I think it's brittle.



Good thinking.

All I've got around here is Elmer's white. Anybody willing to suggest that I go buy some Elmer's wood or some Gorilla glue instead of using Elmer's white glue, or will the white glue do just fine?


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## knot (Jul 13, 2007)

It's only a table tennis racket. I would try the glue you have. Be sure to use a clamp or something. I used to use a lot of white glue (or whatever wood glue that was in front of me) when building car audio subwoofer cabinets.


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## LukeA (Jul 13, 2007)

Fine Woodworking did a wood glue test recently. Titebond III was the strongest, Gorilla Glue the weakest. Regular white glue was in the middle. CA was in there too somewhere.

Titebond III is good stuff. I have a quart from Rockler. It's what they copied to make white glue (aliphatic resin->PVC resin).

If you do woodworking regularly, you'll appreciate Titebond, but if not, Elmer's will treat you just fine.


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## Trashman (Jul 13, 2007)

knot said:


> It's only a table tennis racket.



ONLY a table tennis racket!!! What!!! You know, some of the guys in my club are playing with $200 blades! And that's just for the blade, not including the rubbers, which can run up to $50 per side!


Thanks Luke A, that's good info. I'm going to use the white, right now. Edit: Nope, I just saw that the small bottles of Titebond III are pretty darned cheap, so, if I can find it tomorrow at Home Depot or Ace Hardware, I'm going to go with that. $5 to save a $45 dollar piece of wood is definitely worth it.


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## Sub_Umbra (Jul 13, 2007)

I wouldn't use super glue. For small things I like epoxy.


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## knot (Jul 13, 2007)

Trashman said:


> ONLY a table tennis racket!!! What!!! You know, some of the guys in my club are playing with $200 blades! And that's just for the blade, not including the rubbers, which can run up to $50 per side!



What I mean is you are hitting a ball that weighs almost nothing. Sounds like you smacked the table a few times. Does a $200 blade make them any better?


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## Trashman (Jul 13, 2007)

Yeah, I've ruled out super glue. 

If anybody wants to see my blade, it's this one: http://www.butterflyonline.com/onli...1.asp&type=1&ID=63&pg=10&SortBy=&displayNum=5

If you click on the dark VSG, you can see a little picture an explanation showing and telling about how the blade as a carbon tube and dampeners inserted into the handle. It's somewhat high tech.


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## LukeA (Jul 13, 2007)

Trashman said:


> Yeah, I've ruled out super glue.
> 
> If anybody wants to see my blade, it's this one: http://www.butterflyonline.com/onli...1.asp&type=1&ID=63&pg=10&SortBy=&displayNum=5
> 
> If you click on the dark VSG, you can see a little picture an explanation showing and telling about how the blade as a carbon tube and dampeners inserted into the handle. It's somewhat high tech.



You should have someone make you one out of carbon fiber. :naughty:


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## Trashman (Jul 13, 2007)

LukeA said:


> You should have someone make you one out of carbon fiber. :naughty:



They actually make a lot of rackets that incorporate carbon fiber, such as this one: http://www.butterflyonline.com/onli...ID=103&pg=2&SortBy=&displayNum=5&frompg=soffp

I don't know if a 100% carbon fiber blade would be legal for tournament play. I'm sure if a pure carbon fiber blade was the best and most effective option for play, they'd use them in international play. They don't, however, so I think it'd be less than optimum. They actually tailor the blades for different styles of play and for different hitting qualities. Most have several layers of wood (mine has 5), and they actually choose and combine different types of woods to get a certain quality and effect. Here's a list of blade material usede by Butterfly (taken from the Butterfly website) and their play qualities.


Arylate -- Arylate is a reinforcing fiber used to expand the sweet spot of the blade and also to provide unsurpassed vibration control.

Arylate/Carbon -- These blades feature the best of both the Carbon and Arylate benefits. The speed and large sweet spot of Carbon combined with the great vibration control and soft feel of Arylate. Perhaps the ultimate in blade technology.

Carbon -- Carbon reinforced blades produce great speed along with expanded sweet spots. While fast, the bigger sweet spot provides for a shocking level of control.

Ayous Wood -- A lightweight, stiff wood that is excellent for close-to-the-table counterdrive play.

Koto Wood -- Koto wood outer layers produce a faster and stiffer blade. Great wood for players who rely on both looping and countering techniques.

Bass Wood -- Bass wood has been a mainstay in racket making for over fifty years due to its high degree of control and economical price. It is favored by the close-to-the-table counterdriver as well as players looking to purchase their first professional racket.

Limba Wood -- The classic European topspin wood. Limba wood adds the soft feel and great control needed by today's modern topspin players.

Cypress Wood -- The classic Asian attacking wood. Favored by attackers for several decades because of its unique combination of speed and softness. Also known as Hinoki Wood.

Planchonello Wood -- Planchonello outer layers produce great speed. This wood is most often found in blades designed for the power attacker.

Yellow Aningre Wood -- Yellow Aningre is the ultimate control wood. Providing a soft feel on contact, this wood is favored by many all-round styles of players.


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## LukeA (Jul 13, 2007)

Trashman said:


> They actually make a lot of rackets that incorporate carbon fiber, such as this one: http://www.butterflyonline.com/onli...ID=103&pg=2&SortBy=&displayNum=5&frompg=soffp
> 
> I don't know if a 100% carbon fiber blade would be legal for tournament play. I'm sure if a pure carbon fiber blade was the best and most effective option for play, they'd use them in international play. They don't, however, so I think it'd be less than optimum. They actually tailor the blades for different styles of play and for different hitting qualities. Most have several layers of wood (mine has 5), and they actually choose and combine different types of woods to get a certain quality and effect. Here's a list of blade material usede by Butterfly (taken from the Butterfly website) and their play qualities.


A carbon fiber blade would be just about the ultimate in stiffness/hard hit, but it seems that stiffness/hard hit is not the target of players.

Anyway, congratulations on being able to salvage a $45+ investment by shelling out <$10.


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## js (Jul 13, 2007)

Tashman,

Don't use Super Glue. It does work on porous materials, and can be made to work on wood, especially if you have an accelerator spray, but I've never had good luck with super glue for gluing wood to wood. I do, however, use CA glue (Krazy glue, actually) to glue Ivory keys covers back onto the wood piano keys when I'm out "in the field". It works like a charm *IF* both surfaces are clean and level.

And that's brings me to my point. All of these comparisons of Gorrila Glue and Titebond and Elmers and WHATEVER. All of them are done under ideal conditions: new clean wood joined to new clean wood, clean smooth surfaces, and all joints tightly and properly clamped for the proper amount of time. And even the weakest of them is *incredibly strong* under these conditions.

THAT is far more important and vital than exactly what TYPE of glue you use. Elmers white glue is more than adequate to your needs here *IF* you have a joint that isn't contaminated by old glue or dust and grit, and which mates back together well, AND if you CLAMP THE JOINT WELL AND GOOD. That's key. Short of using epoxy, you must ensure good and proper pressure on the glue joint while it is drying.

In your case, tightly wrapping the handle with first-aid tape or string, using multiple wraps, tied off tightly and securely, would ensure a nice even pressure I think. Piano technicians sometimes use this technique to reglue broken hammer shanks on a piano. I kept a thing of dental floss in my kit expressly for this reason.

If you can't keep good pressure on the joint for some reason, then epoxy is the glue of choice.

My personal favorite glue for wood, ivory, felt, leather, and other organic and porous materials is hide glue. You have to have a glue pot to maintain a water bath at the right temperature, and you have to buy dry crystals and mix them with the right amount of water. And you have to get a feel for the right consistency of the glue. And it smells just a bit like wet dirty socks. But it is the most widely used glue in a piano action, and I've spent hundreds of hours next to a hot glue pot, gluing felt or leather to piano parts. It's an amazing glue because it tacks very quickly, but then takes about 12 to 24 hours to fully dry. It holds stuff like felt and leather to wood very well with only a handful of seconds worth of initial clamping pressure, but if you glue wood to wood, and you clamp it well and for 24 hours, it is pretty much as strong as the strongest of the modern glues. Plus, _it is completely reversible_. Get the joint wet, add heat, and it will let go. This is very important for things like piano key bushings where you want to be able to re-do the bushings every decade or so. Use white glue or gorilla glue or pretty much ANY modern glue, and you will only do it once, and the next time you will have to painfully and somewhat destructively, remove the glue residue, assuming you can remove the felt or leather in the first place!

This is why people like piano tuners and violin makers and guitar makers and furniture repair people HATE Elmers white glue. It's ubiquitous. It's everywhere. And people use it to glue up joints without cleaning the joint and without clamping the joint, and so it doesn't hold well anyway and makes a complete and utter MESS of the joint for anyone who comes after. If a chair rung has been "reglued" with elmers in this way, your only hope is to pull the thing totally apart and painstakingly scrape off all the white crap until you get down to bare wood. Then, and only then, do you re-glue, with inventive and ingenius use of ropes and twisting sticks to tension up the joint.

Anyway, I'm ranting. The point is that the PREP-WORK and TECHNIQUE you use to glue are generally a lot more important than the TYPE of glue you use.


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## FlashKat (Jul 13, 2007)

Trashman,
Go to home Depot and buy DAP Weldwood glue. It's designed for wood and it's one of the best on the market. Never use white or Super glue. Gorilla glue is not that good either.


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## js (Jul 13, 2007)

FlashKat said:


> Trashman,
> Go to home Depot and buy DAP Weldwood glue. It's designed for wood and it's one of the best on the market. Never use white or Super glue. Gorilla glue is not that good either.



Gorilla Glue is actually fantastic glue, especially for outdoor use. It is waterproof and performs well at all different temperatures and through wild extremes of temperature and humidity. (Boat builders glue (resourcinol ?sp?) is also a good choice in these conditions.) Also, Gorilla Glue (which is polyurethane glue, and can be bought cheaper in "generic" form) is superior for gluing end grain against regular grain. That is if you butt up the end of a board against the flat of another board, Gorilla Glue is better than Titebond or Aliaphatic Resin, etc.

And white glue is nearly as strong as wood glue, IF you clamp the joint properly.

As I said before, most of these glues are way strong enough. The whole "this glue is stronger than that" thing is more of a marketing gimmick than anything else. A lot of other considerations are more important than ultimate glue joint strength. Heck, as long as it's stronger than the wood itself, it really doesn't matter all that much.

Considerations like clamp time, water-resistance, whether or not you'll ever need to take the joint apart, the materials to be glued, whether or not you'll be able to clamp the joint, toxicity, fumes, ease of use, color, what contaminants are already in the joint, and so on, are probably all at least as important as glue strength.

For example, I found Gorilla Glue worked nearly as well as epoxy for joints on piano benches (they always take a beating!) that were hopelessly mucked up with white glue. Also Gorilla Glue works great on stone or ceramic or clay (providing the surfaces aren't painted or glazed), plus it foams up to fill gaps and spaces--not as well as expoxy, but still, to a degree. And it's nicer to deal with than epoxy. If some excess spills out of the joint, you just wait for 10 minutes or so until it is sort of dry, but still somewhat soft, and you can trim it right off with a chisel. Epoxy on the other hand--ESPECIALLY epoxy that hasn't been mixed right, is a royal, royal pain in the rear end when it gets on surfaces or on your hands. I HATE epoxy hardener or resin all by itself. Nasty. Yuck! But Gorilla Glue, while it does stain your hands, isn't nearly so nasty to deal with.

There are pros and cons to the various glues; that's for sure.

And then, of course, a lot of times what you really want to fix a joint or connection is a *SCREW!!!* Or both. That's good, too.


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## BIGIRON (Jul 13, 2007)

What JS said. It all depends. Elmers brown is great for new cabinetry. I like Gorilla for repair joints where you won't have clean, even edges to join. It basically foams to fill voids. GG needs mositure to set well, so you might dampen the edges a bit before using it.

As he said, gluin' and screwin' is the best.

Keep the GorillaGlue away from your pets and kids. Very bad stuff if ingested.


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## FlashKat (Jul 13, 2007)

I guess I am not using it correctly, since everytime I tried Gorilla glue compared to DAP Weldwood glue. The DAP always held together everytime I tried to break it apart. Do you always break the item you just glued for testing? What brand of white glue do you use that is just as strong a wood glue? I could say the same for bubble gum would work just as well if clamped together properly and dried in the sun.


js said:


> Gorilla Glue is actually fantastic glue, especially for outdoor use. It is waterproof and performs well at all different temperatures and through wild extremes of temperature and humidity. (Boat builders glue (resourcinol ?sp?) is also a good choice in these conditions.) Also, Gorilla Glue (which is polyurethane glue, and can be bought cheaper in "generic" form) is superior for gluing end grain against regular grain. That is if you butt up the end of a board against the flat of another board, Gorilla Glue is better than Titebond or Aliaphatic Resin, etc.
> 
> And white glue is nearly as strong as wood glue, IF you clamp the joint properly.
> 
> ...


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## will (Jul 13, 2007)

JS has it right - wood glues work best on clean, raw wood. Putting wood glue on something that has already been glued is not the best. Wood glue will not adhere to the glue that is already there.

Gorilla Glue will work better in this case. Get the smallest bottle, the stuff will dry out in a few months after the bottle has been opened.

Gorilla Glue also works better bonding porous and non-porous together. Make sure the work has been misted with water.

Any wood project should be clamped, screwed, tied together until the glue has set.

super glue works best on your fingers -


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## FlashKat (Jul 14, 2007)

Trashman does not make any statements that it has been glued before.


will said:


> JS has it right - wood glues work best on clean, raw wood. Putting wood glue on something that has already been glued is not the best. Wood glue will not adhere to the glue that is already there.
> 
> Gorilla Glue will work better in this case. Get the smallest bottle, the stuff will dry out in a few months after the bottle has been opened.
> 
> ...


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## will (Jul 14, 2007)

FlashKat said:


> Trashman does not make any statements that it has been glued before.




A lot of items like this are made up of laminations ( like plywood ) This blade has carbon fiber in part of the handle. There will be glue used in the original manufacturing process. Laminations will make the object stronger and less likely to warp.

Which Weldwood glue do you use? I have used the contact glue a lot of times for formica tops. As to the white glue - that was probably one of the first generations. I have been using titebond II and titebond III for any new wood to wood projects ( long grain to long grain ). For end grain to long grain I use gorilla glue and some mechanical fastener. 

I read an article some years back about the various wood glues. They actually bind the wood fibers together. Once the glue has dried, and if the item breaks, using wood glue will not bind the areas that have glue on the surface.


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## OhMyGosh (Jul 14, 2007)

Is it just me? I have never had much luck with super glue (CA). I have tried it on plastic many times and it never holds. I guess I just never got good surface contact. I think epoxy is great because you can 'build up' the joint with it to make it stronger than the flawed original part. It is a pain to work with though

I think wood glue is amazing. I have made a simple butt joint and had the wood near the joint break, while the joint itself held.


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## will (Jul 14, 2007)

OhMyGosh said:


> Is it just me? I have never had much luck with super glue (CA). I have tried it on plastic many times and it never holds. I guess I just never got good surface contact. I think epoxy is great because you can 'build up' the joint with it to make it stronger than the flawed original part. It is a pain to work with though
> 
> .



There are lots of types of plastic. Plastic glues will disolve the surface of the plastic. when it dries - it bonds the two pieces together . Not all plastic glue will work with all types of plastic.


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## Trashman (Jul 14, 2007)

Wow, lots of responses! I'm glad I didn't check back earlier, because then I really wouldn't have known which to use. I went to get some Titebond III, but the store only had Titebond II, so that's what I used. I figured that Elmer's white glue may have worked just fine, but I liked that the Titebond II is waterproof, which will may help retain strength while being gripped with my hot sweaty hand. Plus, it mentioned (on the back of the tube) that it held up well in heat. It was clean and free from dust and matched up perfectly. I "clamped" it using a bunch of rubber bands which I put around it as tightly as I could get them. I'm pretty sure it'll hold just fine.

BTW, the carbon tube is actually in the center of the handle (runs the length), and doesn't doesn't touch the wood- it's got a couple of dampeners (rubber or plastic?) - one at each end - that joins it with the hand at the end and near the top of the handle. I wasn't able to see any type of glue in there, but there must be something, judging by the way it split. It'd didn't split like solid wood splits, it had a very evenly spaced jagged pattern that matched on the top and bottom. 

Thanks for all the responses guys. If I have any problems, maybe I'll post back, but most likely, it'll be just fine, unless I drop it again. (It was actually knocked out of my hand, this last time)


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## FlashKat (Jul 14, 2007)

Dap Weldwood carpenters glue is my preference, but as you stated Titebond is also a good product. I also like the DAP Weldwood contact cement.


will said:


> A lot of items like this are made up of laminations ( like plywood ) This blade has carbon fiber in part of the handle. There will be glue used in the original manufacturing process. Laminations will make the object stronger and less likely to warp.
> 
> Which Weldwood glue do you use? I have used the contact glue a lot of times for formica tops. As to the white glue - that was probably one of the first generations. I have been using titebond II and titebond III for any new wood to wood projects ( long grain to long grain ). For end grain to long grain I use gorilla glue and some mechanical fastener.
> 
> I read an article some years back about the various wood glues. They actually bind the wood fibers together. Once the glue has dried, and if the item breaks, using wood glue will not bind the areas that have glue on the surface.


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## Trashman (Jul 14, 2007)

So far, so good. I played with it today and it's as good as new. The guy who sold me the blade saw it when it was broken and then took a look at it today and was impressed. He said, "pretty good job, I can't even see the glue." Actually, you can't even tell it was repaired.


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## FlashKat (Jul 15, 2007)

I am glad to hear you used the Titebond and it's working for you :twothumbs.


Trashman said:


> So far, so good. I played with it today and it's as good as new. The guy who sold me the blade saw it when it was broken and then took a look at it today and was impressed. He said, "pretty good job, I can even see the glue." Actually, you can't even tell it was repaired.


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## Trashman (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks. BTW, I made a slight boo boo in quoting the guy who sold me the blade--he actually said, "pretty good job, I CAN'T even see the glue." I orignally typed "can." Whoops!


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## TedTheLed (Jul 15, 2007)

just thought I'd mention that I use hot melt glue alot because it is almost 'instant' -- I use it as one would use a clamp when wood building; first glue in place, then drill and screw, the glue holds pieces in exactly the right position.
I also use it to cast small 'plastic' parts too, any mold material that will hold for 20 seconds can be used till the glue cools and solidifies. I use a hotmelt called "ultra-bond" it's known as the 'epoxy' of hot melt, but is hard to get in small amounts..also if it absorbs moisture from the air it tends to foam when it's dispensed (foaming doesn't affect the performance though) so I store mine with a box of dessicant. Once it's applied it's more moisture resistant than other hot melts, I'm told. I got 8 pounds for $76.00 + shp. from hotstik.com and use a 3M hand dispenser..


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## chesterqw (Jul 17, 2007)

i guess welding works better...




but not for wood 

i think some kind of silicon glue/epoxy should work.


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## Pellidon (Jul 17, 2007)

When I make pens I always use Gorilla Glue to glue the wood tube to the brass liner. The expansion of GG is a plus there. I did just attach a cheap acoustic guitar neck back on a body with GG and it has held just fine. bad flat joint with no dovetail or mortise/tennon fixture. 

My problem with GG is it goes bad in the bottle after opening and I don't use it enough to justify the cost. So I just use carpenters glue most of the time.


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## js (Jul 17, 2007)

FlashKat said:


> I guess I am not using it correctly, since everytime I tried Gorilla glue compared to DAP Weldwood glue. The DAP always held together everytime I tried to break it apart. Do you always break the item you just glued for testing? What brand of white glue do you use that is just as strong a wood glue? I could say the same for bubble gum would work just as well if clamped together properly and dried in the sun.



FlashKat,

You're almost certainly not using it correctly if you were able to break a GG joint apart.

I am a professional piano tuner-technician. I used to make my living at it, and before that I apprenticed to learn the trade. I am also an amateur wood-worker, and, like many people, general handyman around the house. I have used almost every commercially available type of glue intended for wood and other organics. And in point of fact, there is a bottle of DAP Weldwood contact cement in my piano tuning toolcase. I use it to glue plastic key-covers back on the wood keys. It's definitely a very good glue, and is the only type of glue to use where you will be unable to clamp the joint. All you need to do is coat both surfaces, let them dry until shiny, then press them together with decent pressure for a few seconds, and !VOILA! you have an excellent glue joint.

I know all about DAP, FlashKat. I also know that if you screw up the alignment, you're, well . . . , screwed, as it were. So, it's not the right glue for use in this situation.

The white glue in my piano kit is Elmers white glue. And every single piano action part I have ever glued with it out in the field, has held up just fine. You question my experience and integrity? You think I just glue something, then set it aside on a shelf and never "test" it? You think I am an armchair "glue expert".

No. Not so. I speak from long, hard-won experience.

As for white glue being "just as strong" as wood-glue, I never said that. I simply said it was way strong enough. White glue is, in point of fact, not as strong as wood glue for gluing wood, *but* it's still very very strong. If you can break a white glue joint after gluing and clamping and letting dry, *you don't know what you're doing--you did something wrong, or the joint was contaminated*. Period.

And in point of fact, bubble gum will not work at all well as a glue joint, even if clamped and dried in the sun. If this was said in sarcasm, I don't appreciate it.

Actually, I've read that blood or milk can be used as glue in a pinch, but I've never tried. Casin glue is made from milk, and violin makers use it to join the back of the violin to the sides, and according to the violin maker I used to eat lunch with, once you glue it, it will never come off. Mostly violin makers use hide glue.

As for hot glue, the plastic sticks that melt in a hot "gun", it is definitely NOT in the same strength category as the wood glues we've been talking about here. But it's a pretty useful glue for certain things, especially for gluing fabric trim to upholstery, and for certain crafting projects where speed is of the essence.


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## js (Jul 17, 2007)

Thought this link was worth posting:

Best glue?

Notice the mention of white glue for its longer setup time. I like it in certain situations because it dries clear, lasts a long time in my kit (good shelf life), is non-toxic, cleans up with water, tacks well, and is plenty strong. I only ever use it to glue joints like a hammer shank joint, which if it ever breaks again, will need to have the whole shank repalced anyway. For any joint that needs to be taken apart, or which is felt or leather to wood, I would NOT use white glue. It is a PITA to sand off and is too hard to chisel off with any sort of ease. It's a nasty thing to have to clean out of a joint once it dries there.


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## TedTheLed (Jul 17, 2007)

..js I see you realized piano keys aren't made of ivory any more, but plastic instead..using ivory is illegal, except for certain old pieces, piano makers no longer use ivory ...
have you ever tried ultrabond hotmelt? I'd like to see you pull a joint made from IT apart.. also hotmelt is good for some otherwise impossible to join plastics, like polypropylene. It is also useful for bonding magnets to various surfaces. (btw If you move a hotmelt joint while it's cooling it will be much weaker.)

"..Ultra*high performance, polyamide based hot melt adhesive for demanding applications requiring both high & low temperature resistance. This adhesive will allow high strength bonds to woods, metals*, and various plastics including ABS, Nylon, & PVC*and offers very good resistance to plasticizers. HS-376 meets UL 94 V-O Flammability Requirements.
*
* Metals should typically be pre-heated to obtain*optimum*results.*
** Note: Also available in bulk pellet form,*see product # HM-376P
*
TECHNICAL DATA:
Color = Translucent Amber
Approx. Working Time = 30 seconds
Viscosity:
4,700 cps @ 380 F.
3,200 cps @ 400 F.
2,185 cps @ 425 F.
Heat Resistance = 255 F.
Low Temp Resistance = -20 F.
Hardness = 80 A
Shear Strength = 540 psi
Tensile Strength = 720 psi
Non-Toxic per ASTM D-4236










here's a cool gluing advice engine; (they recommend 'household GOOP' alot, I have a tube in the house and it is very handy for difficult glue jobs)

http://www.thistothat.com


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## MarNav1 (Jul 17, 2007)

Gadget Guy said:


> For wood to wood, Gorilla glue is the best. I couldn't break the seam that I tested.


+1 on that!


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## js (Jul 17, 2007)

TedTheLED,

Interesting on the high performance hotmelt! I didn't know about that. Thanks! But, the test of a joint really isn't whether or not *you* or *I* can pull it apart. We're all pretty weak as far as these things go. Something like a hydraluic apparatus is usually what is used to test ultimate yield strength of glue joints.

As for piano keys, you say that you see that I



> realized piano keys aren't made of ivory any more, but plastic instead..using ivory is illegal, except for certain old pieces, piano makers no longer use ivory ...



Well, first off, I know far more about pianos and piano key coverings than almost anyone who isn't a piano technician or historian. So, yes, I know that *new* pianos can't be *made* with ivory keys anymore.

However, that does not affect any piano that *already* has ivory keys. There is no law saying that the owners must strip the key board of ivory and replace it with plastic. Not at all.

And, in fact, myself, and all piano technicians whom I know (and piano shops) keep a supply of old ivories on hand. You see, every time an old ivory keyboard is so wrecked that it needs to be recovered (with plastic) the good ivories are carefully removed before the keys are sent out to be recovered. Since about a third to half of the old uprights that are rebuilt need to be recovered, it isn't long before you have a a whole lot of old ivory keys on hand. So that a keyboard that only needs a dozen or less keys repaired, will be repaired from the old stash of ivory key covers. It's completely legal and above board. They aren't *new* ivory keys, so there's no problem. You could have a problem if you tried to SHIP a piano with an ivory keyboard overseas, but other than that, it's par for the course. There are a great many pianos that still have ivory keyboards. And in fact, it wasn't more than two or three decades ago that a company in Germany would recover a set of keys with real, legal, NEW ivory, for about $2,500 or so. But that stopped before I even apprenticed to learn the trade.

Anyway, the point is that I do far more regluing and repairing of ivory keys than plastic ones, and this has nothing to do with the fact that I've "realized" that new pianos come with plastic keys. LOL! Most of the lower cost uprights are rebuilt or reconditioned uprights from about 100 years ago, and about half still have an ivory keyboard when sold after being reconditioned. My piano, an Ivers and Pond upright, has, in point of fact . . . wait for it . . . an ivory keyboard.

And for gluing ivories in the field I use CA Glue (Krazy glue to be exact) and in the shop or at home, I use hot hide glue and clamp it overnight.

On another note, there is one more glue worth mentioning, and that is cold hide glue. Franklin is the company which sells it, and it's also called "liquid hide glue". It is hide glue with a chemical additive that keeps it liquid but which evaporates in air to leave hide glue. It has a very long set-up time (like 12 hours) and so is ideal for projects that will take a long time to assemble (like a chair) but whose joints can't be done one at a time. It is also ideal for people who want to use a old-fashioned historical glue on an antique, but who don't want to invest in a glue pot. It's usually OK at re-activating the old hide glue in a joint, too, and on top of that, won't muck up the joint like white glue will. When clamped, with uncontaminated, well mating joints, it's also pretty strong. The shop I apprenticed in, and I myself, use liquid hide glue to re-glue the ribs of a piano sound-board back to the sound board, along with screws to hold the ribs while they dry. This is because it takes a while to use a glue knife to get the glue between the ribs and the soundboard, then screw everything up tight, and also because the rib was initially glued in place with hide glue, and it would be a real pain to clean in between the loose rib sections and sound board. Hence the use of cold hide glue. It's the only glue that you could safely seringe into a joint of an old antique chair, and not have some antiques road show guy yelling at you for using it.


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## TedTheLed (Jul 17, 2007)

js thanks for the information, that is very interesting stuff about the ivory stash and key repair. I have alot of respect for you musical instrument repair guys :thumbsup: I guess those piano tuning skills and hide glue can come in handy when tuning up the ol' super-collider ? 

interesting fact; the booster rockets for the space shuttles are covered with a final coat of SHELLAC. Isn't that cool? We can launch rockets into space but we can't manufacture anything better than the resin we collect from the back of a BUG to do it!


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## FlashKat (Jul 17, 2007)

js,
1- I was *not *referring to DAP Weldwood *contact cement*...I was talking about *wood glue*.
2- I did not say every joint broke with Gorilla Glue...I had better luck with wood glue.
3- Yes...the bubble gum was in *sarcasm*
4- Maybe white glue is strong enough for you, but I have *standards* which I use the best product for each job.
5- I suggested wood glue based on the fact that Trashman wanted a clean strong joint. Gorilla Glue gets messy if you are not careful with it, and it will foam up and you have to sand off the excess when it's dried. Quote from the article *"Another complained about having to leave an extra 1/32 or a 1/16 in his joints to accommodate the glue's tendency to foam up." *
6- In the article quite a few preferred the wood glue (Titebond). Why use wood glue if white glue would never break when used correctly. 

I will assume that white glue is stronger than welding steel when clamped properly....*sarcasm!!!!*

My history was building road cases and special projects that go on tour and they got slammed into walls, dropped off 4 foot high loading docks, hit by forklifts in which these cases can hold anywhere from 100 to 1000 pounds. Yes some of these cases required screws, nails, or staples, but we also rely on a good glue.


js said:


> FlashKat,
> 
> You're almost certainly not using it correctly if you were able to break a GG joint apart.
> 
> ...


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## twentysixtwo (Jul 17, 2007)

I agree, for this application PU (e.g. Gorilla glue) or perhaps contact cement would be best.

But if the only choice is elmers white glue vs crazy glue I might actually lean towards the crazy glue.

Plain white glue is not very good on porous surfaces.

I also saw the fine woodworking article. I'm glad I use Titebond III


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## TedTheLed (Jul 17, 2007)

2062 you meant white glue's ng on nonporous right?

now that that's settled I'd like to report that coyote poop is the next best thing to silicone caulk. this is not a joke. I stepped in a pile once and it stuck to my shoe all day, when I tried to pull it off it stretched like siliconce rubber but wouldn't break or let go of my shoe. I don't know if it was something the coyotes were eating that day or what, but in the wild I'm certain you could set your cabin windows with it.


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## twentysixtwo (Jul 18, 2007)

Whoops, that's what I meant - not good on nonporous. There are very few glues that are not good on POROUS surfaces - CA is one (because it soaks it all up)


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## will (Jul 18, 2007)

Gee - It's only sticky stuff. 

Wood glues ( not going to say which brand is best ) These work best when used on clean new wood. Certain oily woods should be wiped down with lacquer thinner to remove the oil on the surface, these are woods like cocobolo, cedar, ebony and there are lots more. The other thing with wood glue - it is best when used on long grain to long grain surfaces. End grain to long grain or end to end will fail - the glue gets sucked up the pores of the wood leaving very little or none at the glue point. 

Wood glues have evolved over the last 20 years, the original ones were not water resistant. soak the item in water and eventually the glue will soften up. Then came water resistant, meaning it can get wet and will hold together, then came water proof - meaning it can live under water, ( the wood will probably rot, but the glue will hang in there )

Gorilla Glue - I like this for gluing wood to non-porus items, metal and the like. I will also use it where the pieces I am fittng togeter might have some gaps, The foam will fill in those areas. I don't like the fact that it is expensive and goes bad after the bottle is opened. I will also use it for end grain to long grain, with a mechanical fastener ( screw or nails )

The selection depends on lots of things - working time, do you want the item to be taken apart? Is it used in a wet environment?


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## js (Jul 19, 2007)

FlashKat said:


> js,
> 1- I was *not *referring to DAP Weldwood *contact cement*...I was talking about *wood glue*.



Ah! Big difference. I just found a product link. Sorry. My mistake. But this product is more or less the same as most other wood glues, like Titebond or Elmers wood glue. Perhaps it is slightly better--I don't know--but it would perform very nearly the same as the other wood glues. It's just an aliaphatic resin wood glue.



> 2- I did not say every joint broke with Gorilla Glue...I had better luck with wood glue.



Look, this is the sort of sentence that I've been complaining about. You had "better luck" with wood glue vs. Gorilla Glue. OK. What does "luck" mean? What were you gluing? How did you prep the surfaces? How did you clamp them? Were the joints exposed to the weather or not? What sort of use did the joints see, what sort of stresses?

If you think that DAP wood glue is the "BEST" glue, you're holding a very simplistic opinion. Because . . . 

*1. THERE IS NO SINLGE GLUE THAT IS BEST FOR ALL SITUATIONS

2. SURFACE PREP AND CLAMPING AND OTHER FACTORS ARE AT LEAST AS IMPORTANT AS GLUE CHOICE.

3. MANY OTHER GLUE CHARACTERISTICS BESIDES ULTIMATE STRENGTH ARE VERY IMPORTANT IN GENERAL, SUCH AS WORKING TIME, CLAMPING REQUIREMENTS, GAP FILLING ABILITY, ETC.*



> 3- Yes...the bubble gum was in *sarcasm*



That's great. Please refrain from sarcasm. It tends to derail good conversations.



> 4- Maybe white glue is strong enough for you, but I have *standards* which I use the best product for each job.



And so do I. And sometimes Elmers white glue is a pretty good choice, a better choice than DAP wood glue in some cases even. I've already gone over some of its pros over aliaphatic resin wood glues like yellow glue titebond elmers wood glue DAP wood glue, etc. It has longer working time. But, more than that, it stays more flexible when dry than yellow glue. Here's just one of the links I found on it that illustrates this: Windors Chair Resources page

It's not that much different than the various wood glues. Heres a comment from a wood-worker, quoted from this woodworking.com page:



> The only real difference in yellow and white glue in woodworking is the tack time. The yellow glue dries faster so projects don't need to stay in clamps as long. Most woodworkers use white glue for projects that take longer than 10 minutes to assemble like dovetailed drawers. The slower tack time give you longer to work. If you have white glue on hands, go ahead and use it.
> 
> - Dave Lehnert





> 5- I suggested wood glue based on the fact that Trashman wanted a clean strong joint. Gorilla Glue gets messy if you are not careful with it, and it will foam up and you have to sand off the excess when it's dried. Quote from the article *"Another complained about having to leave an extra 1/32 or a 1/16 in his joints to accommodate the glue's tendency to foam up." *
> 6- In the article quite a few preferred the wood glue (Titebond). Why use wood glue if white glue would never break when used correctly.



DAP wood glue, or titebond, or Elmers wood glue *would all have been better choices for Trashmans glue joint than Elmers white glue*. I never said otherwise. What I did say was that prepping the joint (which in Trashmans case was pretty much a non-issue), and proper clamping pressure *were more important than whether he used White glue, wood glue, or Gorilla Glue*.

And I stand by that. Wood glue is stronger than white glue for wood to wood joints. True. But Elmers white glue makes a pretty damn strong joint even so. And Trashmans handle joint wouldn't take much stress and strain. So Elmers white glue would have been plenty strong enough.



> I will assume that white glue is stronger than welding steel when clamped properly....*sarcasm!!!!*



I trust you know where I think you can shove this comment, FlashKat. If you can't bring any actual information or reasoned argument to the discussion, sarcasm will not help your case.



> My history was building road cases and special projects that go on tour and they got slammed into walls, dropped off 4 foot high loading docks, hit by forklifts in which these cases can hold anywhere from 100 to 1000 pounds. Yes some of these cases required screws, nails, or staples, but we also rely on a good glue.



Excellent. And I would never suggest that you use Elmers white glue for these joints, nor that you would skip the joint and rely only on screws if the joint never needed to be taken apart. Yes, by all means add the glue, and make it something like Titebond or DAP wood glue.

BUT,

If you DID use white glue, and used it properly, on one of these cases, my guess is that you would very probably never notice which case had been done with white glue instead of DAP woodglue.

YES, wood glue is stronger, and YES, it is the better choice, but the strength of Elmers white glue is still considerable, and most often it is plenty strong enough, and in certain situations, other considerations and characteristics make it even a *better* choice than wood glue.

You can't seriously be disagreeing with that, can you FlashKat?


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## js (Jul 19, 2007)

TedTheLed said:


> js thanks for the information, that is very interesting stuff about the ivory stash and key repair. I have alot of respect for you musical instrument repair guys :thumbsup: I guess those piano tuning skills and hide glue can come in handy when tuning up the ol' super-collider ?
> 
> interesting fact; the booster rockets for the space shuttles are covered with a final coat of SHELLAC. Isn't that cool? We can launch rockets into space but we can't manufacture anything better than the resin we collect from the back of a BUG to do it!



Woah! THAT is cool! A final coat of *shellac*. I love stuff like that.

Actually, it's far more widespread than we usually think--this sort of thing. Recently I picked up this book in a thrift store on the magic and medicine of plants, and there was this section in the back on all these plants and the substances derived from them, that are used in medicine and other areas. Like those drops they put in your eyes at the eye doctors office. You'd think, offhand, that they would be some cool, complicated, synthesized chemical, carefully and logically developed by some company full of labs and lab techs.

Nope.

It comes from Belladona. It's simply an extract of Belladona. And they knew to use it from folklore and practice. Ladies would use liquid from belladona in their eyes to dialate the pupil so they looked more attractive.

Anyway, very cool to know this about shellac. I love shellac, actually. It's the best choice for the inside of furniture drawers that won't get wet, because as it ages it has a nice sweet pleasant smell. Unlike, for example, varnish or polyurethane, which don't smell at all pleasant after sitting around on the inside of a drawer with heat and dust for 20 years.

Shellac has a short shelf life in liquid form, though, and I think a lot of people have used old shellac and not liked it because they were using OLD shellac.

It's also superior at slowing the transfer of moisture from the inside of the wood to the outside world, and vice versa, so it makes a great sealer coat underneath a stronger more water resistant exterior finish.


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## js (Jul 19, 2007)

Oh, and one more thing about white glue: it has a longer shelf life than aliaphatic resin glues.

So, if, for example, I was at my mother-in-laws house and I had a choice of DAP wood glue that had possibly (even probably in my mother-in-laws case) been picked up at a yard sale, and had then been sitting in her basement for 5 years, vs. a bottle of white glue of unknown vintage, well . . .

I'd go with the white glue for sure.

And don't use old Gorilla Glue either. Same goes for liquid hide glue. That's just yet another consideration: shelf life. A lot of people were all excited about Gorilla Glue when it first came out. It was billed as the best glue on earth, or something like that, and was prominently on display in places like Home Depot and Lowes. But even an unopened bottle of the stuff goes bad in something like a year. And if you open it, that turns into something like three to six months. Not a great choice for an around-the-house general use bottle of glue that will live in a drawer in the kitchen or something. Plus it's pretty messy to use, as FlashKat and others have mentioned.


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## FlashKat (Jul 19, 2007)

We could argue this for days, but I have better things in life than to deal with people like YOU!!!! Read my answer to your comment. below!!!!!


js said:


> I trust you know where I think you can shove this comment, FlashKat. If you can't bring any actual information or reasoned argument to the discussion, sarcasm will not help your case.


*UP YOUR A**...NOT SARCASM. 
*You pick and choose words that work in your defense. My sarcasm only comes out towards people like you.*
Please read postings from people like DM51. He will come out and explain his reasoning, and NOT put down your opinions. He shows respect towards your opinions, but will explain his POV to his answers.
*


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## js (Jul 19, 2007)

FlashKat said:


> We could argue this for days, but I have better things in life than to deal with people like YOU!!!! Read my answer to your comment. below!!!!!
> *UP YOUR A**...NOT SARCASM.
> *You pick and choose words that work in your defense. My sarcasm only comes out towards people like you.*
> Please read postings from people like DM51. He will come out and explain his reasoning, and NOT put down your opinions. He shows respect towards your opinions, but will explain his POV to his answers.
> *



What gives, FlashKat?

You can dish out insulting remarks about me and my *standards* and opinions, but yet can't take an insulting remark back about your paucity of actual evidence, facts, and reasonings?

And, I did explain my reasons and point of view, and I did *NOT* put down your opinion. Show me where I did that? I'm pretty much agreeing with you on everything EXCEPT for where you attack me and my opinion of Elmers white glue. I say it's a pretty strong, pretty decent glue for many uses, and give links and examples and talk about my own experience to prove my point.

And yet you make sarcastic comments about clamping bubble gum properly, and then make two more sarcastic comments when I call you out on your sarcasm.

And I'm the a**hole here?

I think not, FlashKat. I think not. If you have better things to do, now is probably a good time to go do them.


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## FlashKat (Jul 19, 2007)

What gives, FlashKat?

You can dish out insulting remarks about me and my *standards* and opinions, but yet can't take an insulting remark back about your paucity of actual evidence, facts, and reasonings?
*I can take insults. Yes you provided facts that says that quite a few people preferred Titebond wood glue. I made statements based on my experience with each product.*

And, I did explain my reasons and point of view, and I did *NOT* put down your opinion. Show me where I did that? I'm pretty much agreeing with you on everything EXCEPT for where you attack me and my opinion of Elmers white glue. I say it's a pretty strong, pretty decent glue for many uses, and give links and examples and talk about my own experience to prove my point. 
*My reasons of you putting down my opinions.
*I know all about DAP, FlashKat. I also know that if you screw up the alignment, you're, well . . . , screwed, as it were. So, it's not the right glue for use in this situation.
* You assumed that I was talking about contact cement before you found out that I was talking about wood glue.*
If you think that DAP wood glue is the "BEST" glue, you're holding a very simplistic opinion. Because . . . 

*1. THERE IS NO SINLGE GLUE THAT IS BEST FOR ALL SITUATIONS

2. SURFACE PREP AND CLAMPING AND OTHER FACTORS ARE AT LEAST AS IMPORTANT AS GLUE CHOICE.

3. MANY OTHER GLUE CHARACTERISTICS BESIDES ULTIMATE STRENGTH ARE VERY IMPORTANT IN GENERAL, SUCH AS WORKING TIME, CLAMPING REQUIREMENTS, GAP FILLING ABILITY, ETC.*
* Another assumption. I know there is no single glue that is best for all situations. 
You also talk about Gorilla Glue is better for filling gaps, and for surfaces that are not prepared.
My thoughts are the handle has a break which the surfaces are clean and has matched mating surfaces in which the wood glue will provide a very clean strong repair.
* 
And yet you make sarcastic comments about clamping bubble gum properly, and then make two more sarcastic comments when I call you out on your sarcasm.
*I figured you would correct me anyway.*

And I'm the a**hole here?
*I just stated what I thought you were thinking...Sorry my mistake.*

I think not, FlashKat. I think not. If you have better things to do, now is probably a good time to go do them.
*Just for the record...js you may have the last statement even if it makes me look bad, because I am not going to post anymore in this thread unless it is a legitimate question that should be answered properly. I am not saying either of us is right or wrong, but I feel there was misunderstanding and misinterpreting of statements.*


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## js (Jul 24, 2007)

FlashKat said:


> *I can take insults. Yes you provided facts that says that quite a few people preferred Titebond wood glue. I made statements based on my experience with each product.*



Err. I was thinking of my links and quotes regarding Elmers white glue, not titebond. I've never been trying to say that a woodworker would, in general, *prefer* Elmers white glue to aliaphatic resin glue! Holy cow! I provided evidence that (1) it wasn't crap, and (2) that in some specific cases it was actually to be prefered over aliphatic resin glues like titebond--but only in some cases.

That's the crux of it: this whole thing got blown out of proportion (sorry for my part in that) because you were attacking Elmers white glue, and I felt strongly that it was an unfair and inaccurate take on Elmers white glue. That's what fueled this whole thing.



> * You assumed that I was talking about contact cement before you found out that I was talking about wood glue.*



Hello?!?!? I made a very clear, very NON-offensive apology about that. And I even said that it may be better than titebond for all I know, but it's pretty much the same thing--an aliaphatic resin glue. The reason for the confusion is obvious. DAP Weldwood is also the name of the contact cement, and I'm pretty sure that that came first. But whatever, it's not that important. The point is just that this was a sideline to the main point of contention between us: Elmers white glue.



> * Another assumption. I know there is no single glue that is best for all situations.
> You also talk about Gorilla Glue is better for filling gaps, and for surfaces that are not prepared.
> My thoughts are the handle has a break which the surfaces are clean and has matched mating surfaces in which the wood glue will provide a very clean strong repair.
> *



Not to get too pedantic, FlashKat, but it wasn't an assumption. It was a conditional statement: "*If* you think that DAP wood glue is the "BEST" glue, *(then)* you're holding a very simplistic opinion."

But still . . . yes, point taken.



> *Just for the record...js you may have the last statement even if it makes me look bad, because I am not going to post anymore in this thread unless it is a legitimate question that should be answered properly. I am not saying either of us is right or wrong, but I feel there was misunderstanding and misinterpreting of statements.*



For the record, it is not my intention to make you look bad, FlashKat. I'm sorry for my part in the negativity that evolved in this discussion, and I'm not interested in continuing it. I'm not going to try to have the "last word" regarding the subject matter here.

What I would like to do is to make clear my intentions. It may be strange and outlandish, but I have found that I react to unfair attacks (from my point of view, anyway) on objects and schools of thought and tools and books, and so on, much the same way most people react to attacks against their own person and relatives. If someone insulted my intelligence or looks or whatever in a thread, not much would come of it. But start unfairly insulting the SF M6 or the A2 or (in this case) Elmers white glue, and I tend to jump into the fray.

Stupid probably.

Ah well . . . I'm sorry. Please accept my apology for the places where I was out of line and obnoxious. May all your glue joints come out strong and permanent. Take care.


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## FlashKat (Jul 24, 2007)

Hi js,
An apology is not necessary, and I also apologize:twothumbs
I was not upset or anything. I reacted exactly as you stated below, and I really feel challenges in life is what makes us better. 
We were both right and wrong in certain areas, but what is most important is that we always listen to everybodys opinions and views. There is always more than one way to do things in life.
I am sorry for all of the sarcasm which is not right, but I was just having fun. My way of being dum during these times.


js said:


> What I would like to do is to make clear my intentions. It may be strange and outlandish, but I have found that I react to unfair attacks (from my point of view, anyway) on objects and schools of thought and tools and books, and so on, much the same way most people react to attacks against their own person and relatives. If someone insulted my intelligence or looks or whatever in a thread, not much would come of it. But start unfairly insulting the SF M6 or the A2 or (in this case) Elmers white glue, and I tend to jump into the fray.
> 
> Stupid probably.
> 
> Ah well . . . I'm sorry. Please accept my apology for the places where I was out of line and obnoxious. May all your glue joints come out strong and permanent. Take care.


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## Empath (Jul 24, 2007)

The original inquiries have been addressed to a great extent, other matters have reached a point of discomfort, and self-correction. A good time to set the matter to rest. Thread closed.


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