# A Home Generator Question



## MicroE (Jul 28, 2006)

It's time to buy a generator for my house, but none of the previous threads seem to address my (funky) situation.

We have a 3/4 hp well pump that uses 220V. If I don't power the well pump then there is no fresh water coming into the house. But, the pump only needs to run for about 1 minute each hour to feed water into a pressure tank. The pressure tank then supplies water to the sinks, toilets, etc.

Aside from the well, I only need about 1500 Watts to run the fridge and a TV or some lights. A Honda EU2000i seems ideal, except for that pesky 220V well pump.

Generators that supply 220V start at 4000 Watts and are VERY expensive to buy and run. It seems like a waste to buy a 4KW generator when I really only need a 2KW unit.

Any ideas?---Marc


----------



## Kristofg (Jul 28, 2006)

Perhaps it is possible to buffer the energy needed for the pump? If the pump only works a few minutes every hour, it might be possible to have the generator deliver part of the power to a battery or fuel cell and power the pump from there. It would also help with peak loads when switching on the tv or starting the fridge.


----------



## powernoodle (Jul 28, 2006)

A 110v well pump, if there is such a thing?


----------



## MicroE (Jul 28, 2006)

powernoodle said:


> A 110v well pump, if there is such a thing?



Nice try, Powernoodle. Unfortunately, the motor for the well pump is already in place. It is sealed in the well 200-feet below the surface of the Earth. I can't change it myself, so pulling it up and changing it would cost several thousand dollars.


----------



## BIGIRON (Jul 28, 2006)

Yes. Lots of possibilities. And a 120v pump could be a good solution.

How far to the water surface in your well? Harbor Freight has several small suction type pumps and tanks that would work well if there's not too much lift involved. One is on sale now for $69.99.

I've used several of them and they've performed fine. They're light and easily hooked up. You'll just need a suction pipe (black poly works fine) and a foot valve (available at Home Depot, etc). You don't even have to do any wiring -- they come with a standard male plug.

This is too weird but I swear it's true. Fed Ex just delivered, 30 minutes ago, the $69.99 pump that I ordered as a spare/hurricane backup. no joke.

edit - remember, you're only lifting from a few feet below the surface of the water -- the depth of the well if of no concern. My main well lifts from 10ft in a 330ft well.


----------



## Kristofg (Jul 28, 2006)

Perhaps a european generator from honda? They supply 220v
http://www.fl.honda.be/content/industry/18748_5606_data.php?mv=360


----------



## BIGIRON (Jul 28, 2006)

And now that I think of it, there's no reason you couldn't install such a pump in-line in your system. You wouldn't even need to drop another pipe into the well. 

Changes my plans for a backup system.

As far as generators and such -- always buy more capacity than you think you'll need.


----------



## turbodog (Jul 28, 2006)

Your cheapest obvious solution is to simply find another source of water.

But also, the honda eu2000 costs about $800. For that money, you can easily find a 4000+ watt 240v generator @ home depot/etc and still have $ left over. In addition, I don't think a 2000w unit will START and run a 3/4 hp well pump.

The honda is a much more useful generator though. I'd try to find alternate water and go with the honda.

I do speak from experience. I own and have owned several generators: honda eu1000, honda eu2000, honda 7000is (bad boy), generac 4000, miller legend welder/genset.

But the baddest generator I ever saw used a 20,000 watt generator as the exciter coil. :huh: The whole thing was mounted on an 18 wheeler trailer!


----------



## MicroE (Jul 28, 2006)

BIGIRON said:


> And now that I think of it, there's no reason you couldn't install such a pump in-line in your system. You wouldn't even need to drop another pipe into the well.



Wow, That's a great idea! 
I could add a "T" onto the water line between the well and the pressure tank. A second pump, the 120V emergency pump, could be fitted to the "T" and pull water from the well. The water surface is only about 20 feet below the earth's surface, so it could work on suction alone. 
Hmmmm. That's definitely something to chew on.


----------



## BIGIRON (Jul 28, 2006)

TD I agree on the generators. 

Most submersible well pumps, at least all the 240v I've seen, use a external capacitor ("control box") to start so a 2kw set might run it, altho it would be close, particularly if there were other load involved.


----------



## MoonRise (Jul 28, 2006)

Couple 'o points.

Is the well pump the absolute only thing using 220-240 VAC? If so, and you want to be able to use a 110-120 VAC generator for backup, then I think you will have to replace the existing well pump with a 120 VAC model. If there are any other household devices that use 220-240 VAC that you want to be able to run using the generator, then you'll have to get a generator that can output 220-240 VAC.

Next, if your existing 3/4 HP 220-240VAC well pump typically only runs for about one minute in an hour, I think your pump is just a wee-bit oversized.

You could change to a 1/2 HP 120VAC well pump. Just check the specs on the max lift of your existing pump versus the actual required lift and flow rate versus the specs of a possible replacement pump.

Also remember to check the wiring to the pump and verify that it is adequate for the distance and amp demands. Unless you have some really-really-really long distances involved, 14 gauge wire for a 1/2 HP 110-120V pump might be adequate and 12 gauge wire should be just fine.

Next, in combination with changing the well pump, you could change your pressure tank(s) to have more capacity in them also. Result is more stored water before the pump has to turn on, but then the pump has to run longer to refill the tanks(s).

Next, even a 1/2 HP 120VAC pump will take most, if not all, of the available generator capacity of a 2000W-class generator at start-up. How much interaction and switching of plugs/cords/devices do you want to tolerate with your set-up? Do you want to be able to feed generator-produced 120V into your house and be able to judiciously just turn things on when needed in an 'emergency' situation? If so, you need a transfer switch/box wired into the main circuit panel.

Do NOT-NOT-NOT-NEVER-NOT-NOT-NOT back-feed a generator into a house's wiring!! It's dangerous to do so, to your wiring, the generator, and utility workers who would be working on the lines trying to fix the problem that caused you to start-up the generator in the first place. The danger to the wiring is possibly feeding excess current into a branch circuit and overloading the wiring in the wall. The danger to the generator is when the main AC power comes back on and feeds back into the generator if the circuit breaker panel main disconnect breaker is still connected.

Only use a transfer switch/box to feed generator power into a house. Or use an individual cord-and-plug arrangement for each device powered by the generator.

Next, remember to allow for start-up surge demands when sizing your generator needs. Most AC motors will have a start-up surge of about twice the running demand. So a typical fridge/freezer with an 800 W run-time demand will need about 1600-2200 W at start-up. So a 2000W-class generator will -just- be able to handle it with some minor other things going as well (a few lights to see, etc). If/when the fridge and the pump kick on at the same time and you have everything enabled at the same time on your transfer switch/box, OOPS! 

If you want to have the house receptacles and devices running pretty much as 'normal' while using the generator and transfer switch/box and not have to worry about manually opening/closing individual branch circuit breakers so that only limited branches are live at a time, you pretty much need to move up in capacity from the 2000W generators to the 4000W+ machines to run a household. IMHO. The 2000W-class machines can run most common household devices, but can only run one major household thing at a time.

You have to decide how much:

- you want to spend
- you will put up with transferring cords or branch circuits around

New generator - $500-$1000 or so, big whole-house units will be more
Transfer switch - $300-$500 plus installation
New 110-120VAC well pump - $500-$1500 plus installation

See http://www.backwoodssolar.com/Catalogpages2/pumps2.htm for some 110-120 VAC well pumps.


----------



## scott.cr (Jul 28, 2006)

One thing to remember about using an in-line pump in addition to the "sump" pump is that you will lose some flow; the sump pump will lose efficiency pushing water through the inline, and the inline will have to be powerful enough to draw through the sump pump. But with household water flow rates this could be a non-issue.

Maybe cheaper to use a 110v to 220v transformer for the sump pump? I'm sure you can find them with appliance-type power ratings (not the hair dryer travel converters that plug into the wall outlet).

I'm only a fan of Horrible Freight tools for one-time use generally speaking, but their top of the line generators use Hitachi gen heads and Robin (Subaru) engines. They look real nice and you can often find them on sale for $100 of their already decent price.

Too bad I have no need for a genset because I've always wanted to build one out of like a 1.5L Honda automotive engine, powered by propane.


----------



## James S (Jul 28, 2006)

I would get 2 generators. The big 4kw units use gas like it's going out of style, you do not want to run that just for your fridge unless you can also run a pipe to a gas station next door.

What you want is a used 4kw genset and a transfer switch just to run your well pump. If you can get an electric start unit you might even automate it with the pressure switch so that it would start automatically when needed. Though that could be dangerous! But to go out and push the button on the genset when you need more water is not a big deal.

Then spend your real money on a good quality honda or kipor or yamaha 2kw inverter generator. They sip gas, are quiet for leaving on all the time and provide high quality power for your fridge and if you decide to use the computer or something else. You can run extension cords for the fridges and such you only need a transfer switch for the pump. Small transfer switches like that are relatively inexpensive compared to big units.

This is pretty much exactly what I'm trying to work out the details of too.


----------



## BIGIRON (Jul 28, 2006)

I'm going to plumb the back-up pump into my well system and test it. Maybe this weekend if time permits.

Here's how I plan to do it -- I have an 1 1/2 inch line coming from the pump to the pressure tank/distribution system. I'll install a ball valve in the line. The closer to the well, the better for pumping - maybe not for power supply. I'll install "T's" (bushed to 1")on each side of the valve. I'll then install cutoff valves on each "T" and then hook up the pump to the cut off valves. (I want the cutoffs so I can remove/reattach the pump easily. ) When using the backup, I'll close the valve in the main line so I'm not pressurizing the suction side. When not using the backup, I'll just open the main valve and shut the cutoffs, negating the choke effect of the b/u pump.

I know my 1.8KW portable gen will run it, cause I've run a similar pump with it before. I have a 4.5 genset that will run the regular pump on 220v, but this way I don't have to wire it into the well system.

Something's gotta be wrong here. This is too simple.


----------



## turbodog (Jul 28, 2006)

There is another solution here.

You already HAVE a several thousand watt generator at your house. It's called your "car".

Find a 240v inverter and run it off your car battery. If your pump REALLY runs that little, your car can handle the load, especially if you crank the engine.


----------



## turbodog (Jul 28, 2006)

Also, I tought I would mention this.

We all talk about the honda eu2000, and I have bought about 6 of them for myself and people I know.

Yamaha makes a competitor to it, a STRONG competitor. It's the yg2800 I think.

Same inverter design. Same noise level. It has a roll cage frame instead of plastic, not that either is 100% superior.

BUT!

It's got a 3 gallon tank instead of a 1 gallon and includes a fual gauge.

It has a separate fual valve so you can run the carb dry for storage.

It outputs 2800 surge and 2500 constant instead of 2000 surge and 1600 constant. That's roughly 50% more powerful each way.

And it only costs $100 over the honda.

Still only 110v though.

And I have bought 3 of them. They are nice.


----------



## cy (Jul 28, 2006)

I say simply get a 4,000-5,000 watt overhead value generator from homedepot or other box stores. you can find them for $450-$650 range with 220 output. 

yes a 4,000 watt genset will eat more fuel, but so what. if it's for backup only. if it's a primary source, then that's another matter. 

genset availability has changed greatly within last year or so. there's several Chinese 2,500 watt overhead valve gensets available for $225 range. these units basically duplicate 2,000 watt honda class gensets do. 

don't get me wrong for camper long runtime requirements. Honda 2,000 is still the one, but for backup usage. lower $$ units will do just fine. 

I'm running 5700 watt 11hp Honda, 4,000 Yamaha and 1,000 Yamaha. when power goes down, I'm cranking up the big honda. I've got a freezer and large fridge that's got to stay up. it does cost me an extra gal of fuel per day, but that's a small price to pay. especially when backup situations occurs 2-3 times per year.


----------



## turbodog (Jul 28, 2006)

Everyone that lived through katrina with a generator still has horrors about finding fuel for it.

I loaned a honda eu2000 to some family. 

They were able to run:
fridge
tv
satellite
2 fans
2 lamps
deep freeze
microwave (provided fridge/freezer were not on)

This stuff ran with no cord-swapping for 3 days straight. All in all, the honda ran for 5-6 days straight.


----------



## James S (Jul 28, 2006)

I guess it does depend on what kind of emergency you plan to be using it for. If it's just storm related power outage of a couple of days then gas should be still available locally, but if you plan on storing gas for longer term usage, say up to 2 weeks, it becomes a huge task and a huge tank for one of these non-inverter generators.

If my power goes out it will be because of a near miss from a hurricane most likely (if it goes out due to a direct hit of a hurricane it wouldn't matter as there wont be anything without several square miles of the coast anyway) but lets assume chaos and every little bit of gas I can save will go a long way.

Harbor Freight has a 5200 WATTS PEAK/3000 WATTS RATED rated generator on sale right now for under $500. Claims a 5 hour runtime at half load. There is no way I could store a weeks worth of gas to run it, though it would definitely start my well pump and run the fridge, it's not good for really extended outages where gas might be scarce. Or you can pay more than double that for the yamaha (which looks GREAT by the way) and store half as much gas but get a little less power.

I"m afraid that this year I wont be able to come up with $1300 or so for a fancy one, but I might scrape $500 for this, and upgrade next year.


----------



## TedTheLed (Jul 28, 2006)

T-240 - Auto Transformer
I got one of these
I got this thing to balance the 240 volt output from the diesel gen, while suplying maximum amount of power available to the house and the 120 volt inverter and chargers... It handles about 5000 watts. Though I had to switch out my 1/2 hp pump for a 1/3 hp because the 1/2 hp used over 50 amps on start-up which overloaded my inverter 1 out of 5 start-ups (!) sometimes it supplied enough energy to start the pump sometimes not -- the Trace 2500 watt 50 amp sinewave inverter is rated to fifty amp; the pump to fifty one or two! really, I called Grundfos and spoke to the specifications lady..seems the 1/2 hp operated right on the digital cut-off point of the inverter.. the 1/3 hp works fine.

I doubt the Honda 2000 watt could start a conventional 1/2 pump. There are some 'slow start' pumps out there that demand less on start up.


Xantrex
T240 120/240 VAC Auto Transformer
(List Price:	$425.00)
Our Low Price:	$334.35
The T240 is a great way to operate 240 VAC power tools and water pumps from a single inverter. 120 VAC is supplied to the T240 which steps it up to 240 VAC. This versatile auto transformer can also turn 240 VAC into 120 VAC. This allows the full output of a 240 VAC generator to be used by our 120 VAC battery chargers.
Applications
• Step up: Allows you to power 240 VAC loads from a single 120 VAC inverter/charger. This is typically done for powering deep well pumps or other dedicated high power 240 VAC loads.
• Step down: Allows you to connect a large 120 VAC load to the output of a stacked pair of DR or SW inverters (120/ 240 VAC). This results in the inverters sharing the load, allowing higher performance and efficiency.
• Balancing Transformer: Allows a single 120 VAC inverter to be connected to a generator which has 240 VAC output. Keeps the generator balanced for better performance and operating life. Balancing the generator’s output also allows higher charge rates from your battery charger.
roduct Features
• Indoor powder coated enclosure with knockouts for conduit connections
• Two pole 25 A circuit breaker/disconnect
• Two year warranty
Options
• Up to six additional Square D QOU breakers for additional input/output wiring protection
---


----------



## MicroE (Jul 28, 2006)

Let's see if I have this straight.
1.) Buy a 4KW/220V non-inverter generator and put up with the noise.
2.) Buy a 4KW/220V inverter generator.
3.) Change the well pump to 120V, buy a generator that will start a 1 HP motor.
4.) Add a backup 1/2 HP 120V suction pump to the well output and buy an inverter or non-inverter generator that will start the 1/2 HP motor.
5.) Buy a 12V to 220V inverter for the car, store enough gas for the car and generator, buy a 2KW/110V Honda inverter generator for everything else. 
6.) Buy a 110V to 220V autotransformer and an inverter or non-inverter generator that can start a 1 HP motor.
7.) Forget the well. Buy two new plastic 55-gallon drums and store a week's worth of drinking water in the house and buy a small 2KW inverter generator.

All of the options except 4.) require that I wire in a transfer switch for the well pump and store some amount of gas and oil.

I'm going to figure out the cost and time for each and then get back to you.


----------



## TedTheLed (Jul 28, 2006)

..don't forget you can also get a simple connector wire and hook up TWO Honda 2000 watters together for 4000 watts, or 2000 watts at 220....(I'd guess you could output either 110 or 220..) [edit: I have since been informed (Turbodog) that the 220 volt configuration is not possible. but why not?]

btw $800 for the honda2k seems like a greta deal! My brother paid $1100 all told for his, in Ventura..

I know this place http://www.mayberrys.com/gentran/parallel.htm was selling them cheap, but if I buy my motors locally then I get good quick repair service from the store..


----------



## BIGIRON (Jul 28, 2006)

The 120v pump I just received requires 6amps to start per its packaging. And, as I posted earlier, I've run similar pumps on my antique Craftsman 1800w generator with no problem. I wasn't running anything else at the time, tho.

Honestly guys, I don't own stock in HF or the pump company. But this little pump comes with a small pressure tank and pressure switch for $69.99 This is the 4th one I've bought and the only problem I've had was bad threads on the output fitting of one (which was quickly fixed with a tap). Now, since I've said that, you all will rush out and buy one which will probably explode in the first 15 minutes use.


----------



## TedTheLed (Jul 28, 2006)

BigI, probly you get what you pay for..my water is 70 feet below the surface of the planet, then it has to go up an additional 200 feet to the tank..the 1/3 hp Grundfos pump works at the upper limit of it's design, taking all the energy it can and it cost only about $650.00 -- there are pumps that use less energy, and require much less energy to start, like the Sunrise pump; only $1500 imported from Italy! I got one and it broke right after the two year warranty ran out. Probly just a fuse but the grundfos pumps more water for a little more electric..

anyone wanna buy a used sunrise? (it pumps very high, I forget exactly how high)


----------



## turbodog (Jul 28, 2006)

I have paralleled the hondas before. You still get 120v, but output power is 4000w.

www.wisesales.com is THE best place for honda/yamaha generator pricing. Period. I have ordered 10-15 units from them.

Everyone forgets that your WATER HEATER has a nice supply of drinking water, 35-60 gallons is typical. We always stored extra water in the bathtub.





TedTheLed said:


> ..don't forget you can also get a simple connector wire and hook up TWO Honda 2000 watters together for 4000 watts, or 2000 watts at 220....(I'd guess you could output either 110 or 220..)
> 
> btw $800 for the honda2k seems like a greta deal! My brother paid $1100 all told for his, in Ventura..
> 
> I know this place http://www.mayberrys.com/gentran/parallel.htm was selling them cheap, but if I buy my motors locally then I get good quick repair service from the store..


----------



## TedTheLed (Jul 28, 2006)

hey Turby, seemsd that website doesn't give prices, you need must call their 800 #.. what sort of prices do you get from wisesales, say for the eu2000?

(can the eu2000 be paralleled to produce 2000 watts at 220volts?? -- that's what I was suggesting, so that you don't need a step-up transformer..)


----------



## turbodog (Jul 28, 2006)

I got high $700s and low $800s delivered to me on the various times I have bought. I am sure fuel costs have impacted that some lately though.

No, the eu2000 will not parallel that way.





TedTheLed said:


> hey Turby, seemsd that website doesn't give prices, you need must call their 800 #.. what sort of prices do you get from wisesales, say for the eu2000?
> 
> (can the eu2000 be paralleled to produce 2000 watts at 220volts?? -- that's what I was suggesting, so that you don't need a step-up transformer..)


----------



## BIGIRON (Jul 28, 2006)

Yes Ted, there's no way that little pump would work under your conditions. My primary pump is a 3/4 Grundfoos and it pumps way more water than I'll ever use.

I put a 1/2 hp Grund on a rental not long ago and it's also working fine.


----------



## James S (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh, and before I forget, someone earlier suggested that the capacitor in a pump start circuit might help it start with less power. Power storage isn't what the capacitor is for in a motor start circuit. An ac motor runs just as happily backwards as forwards, what the capacitor across one phase does is delay that phase by a fraction of a second while it's charging the cap and therefore makes sure the motor always goes in the correct direction (or goes at all) but it doesn't affect how much power it takes to start the motor any.


----------



## Badbeams3 (Jul 28, 2006)

Could you build a small water tower....9~10 feet high...maybe a 100 gallons or so. High enough that the shower heads had some pressure...might not need much. Maybe two tanks on the tower. Paint one black...silver on the other. Tap the black tank into the hot water (out) of the water heater. Just run the other to and outside water spicket...just use garden hoses for this. 

If the power outage is storm related...you would probaby have plenty of warning...time to fill the tanks. Drinking water of course...bottles from the refridge. The other would only be for toilets and showers.

This could give you comfort for a while (hot and cold water). Runnig some guttering from water collected from the roof might keep you in business a while longer...if your lucky. And then go with a small generator...2000~3000 watts....Deepcycle battery...inverter (might not want/need the generator running all the time) ...small (5000 btu) window A/C unit in bedroom. A little comfort for wife at night. 

Oh...and maybe get a flashlight or two....LOL

Ken


----------



## TedTheLed (Jul 28, 2006)

well you get about .43 pounds of pressure per foot of rise, so ten feet would give you a little under 5 lbs. of pressure. 
most houses are plumbed for ridiculously high pressure, imho..many codes call for 90 psi plumbing, because most building goes on in apartment houses where the water must be highly pressurized to get to the top floors..
..like around here, the water mains in LA that runs along the Pacific coast Highway is pressurized to 200 lbs! because there are so many big houses up in the hills.. if you stop at the RV park you need to get a pressure reducer for your rig so the pipes don't blow..
I don't like high pressure requirements because it takes a lot of energy to pressurize water.
You could try, but I doubt it would flow well enough or a shower.
You could of course easily build a shower that would work fine at 5 psi..
Maybe a modified collector pail that you could fill slowly from the shower head at 5 psi then, then open a valve on the pail for more of flow to shower under..


----------



## Badbeams3 (Jul 28, 2006)

Hmm, maybe a couple small pond type pumps in the tanks could aid the flow...bump the pressure up a little. And maybe some changes the shower heads...something that is not low-flow...but keep in mind you might not want a high flow rate...use up the reserves a little quicker.

Ken


----------



## turbodog (Jul 28, 2006)

Um, but if someone's going to go through the trouble and expense of building all this stuff wouldn't they just bite the bullet and buy a larger genset? Or maybe buy 2 separate ones? You could buy 2 gens and still be cheaper that this.

And not to mention the most important part... the wife's reaction to this rainwater shower setup!

Are you guys married?


----------



## gadget_lover (Jul 29, 2006)

I'm looking at a genset too. We had too many power outages last week. 

The interesting thing about loads is that you can effectively swap loads around with little hassle.

If we left the freezer door closed, it was still near zero after 4 hours without power. The refrigerator door was left closed for 18 hours and the milk was at 45 degrees.

In Microe's case, the pump runs for a minute every hour or so. It's probably OK for the water tank to go dry, so he only needs the 4KW genset a few minutes a few times each day. The rest of his needs may be met by a more fuel efficicent unit that runs continuously.

Just some thoughts. I've never had to live with a generator.

Daniel


----------



## turbodog (Jul 29, 2006)

I've been fortunate enough to have owned and used many generators extensively. For most people, the single largest problem with owning one is the lack of use concerning it. If you don't use it regularly or properly maintain it, you be frustrated by the poor performance it provides.

Also, there's some little-known problems with most generators. On a 240v unit rated at say 4000w each phase (each 120v plug) can only provide 2000w. This means that you can't plug your mondo 2500w 120v appliance into it.

There are _very_ few exceptions to this in that some _quite_ high end units have a switch where you can get full power (4kw) from the 120v plugs. These exceptions are rare enough for you to safely assume that you will likely never see one.

So in a nutshell... if you need over 50% of the total power output from a 240v genset for any single appliance, you MUST be using a 240v appliance.

In real life this means that you have to pay particular attention to which appliances you plug into which bank of 120v plugs, or you'll throw the breakers on the genset.

For those that are still unclear, think of it like this. A 4kw 240v genset is more like 2, 2kw models that are normally independent and are joined (as needed) together for occasional 240v output.

If the phases are loaded too unequally, you'll get thrown breakers and surging as the engine tries to keep up with full load from one phase and no (or little) load from the other. This causes the engine to work harder than required and causes fuel usage to increase.

Swapping loads does work very well. Your deep freeze only needs to run an hour or two a day. The fridge is happy with 50% power outages.

The honda eu2000 will run typical loads (tv/fridge/deep freeze/microwave/fan/lights/etc) for 24 hours straight on maybe 1.75-2 gallons of fuel. If you only ran it when needed, I bet you could made do on 1/2 gallon per day.

The same goes for a larger genset. They DO drink gas, but not if you only run them every few hours.

However, this is a sucky strategy. The power's out! There's nothing to do! Most people want some activity to pass the time. We need lights, fans, tv, etc.








gadget_lover said:


> I'm looking at a genset too. We had too many power outages last week.
> 
> The interesting thing about loads is that you can effectively swap loads around with little hassle.
> 
> ...


----------



## TedTheLed (Jul 29, 2006)

Turbod, that's exactly the problem the Xantrex T240 autotransformer I described (in this thread, p.1) takes care of. It balances the load, making full power available at 120 from a 240 volt generator. (each 120v leg is 25 amps. max)


----------



## MicroE (Jul 29, 2006)

I spoke with my plumber yesterday. He does the work in my home when NJ requires the signature of licensed plumber. His advice was not to fool around with the well. He said that the water level was too low to pull up with a suction-style pump, even a self-priming one. 

I've decided to handle the situation by purchasing a 2KW 120V unit, probably a Honda 2000 or (more likely because of the 3-gallon tank) the Yamaha 2800. Either unit will handle everything that we need to run during a power outage, except the well pump.
For the time being, I'm going to put 2 55-gallon drums of chlorinated water in the basement with a handpump and a drinking water hose.

Someday, when I get the $$$, I will buy a genset dedicated to the well pump and ditch the drums.


----------



## TedTheLed (Jul 29, 2006)

i dunno if you're thinking survival and utilities cut-off it's silly to have a well and no way to get the water out..

? hand pump your well $400-800; http://www.windmills.net/Hand Pumps.htm

(what no 'bicycle' well pump?)


----------



## wquiles (Jul 29, 2006)

turbodog said:


> Yamaha makes a competitor to it, a STRONG competitor. It's the yg2800 I think.
> 
> Same inverter design. Same noise level. It has a roll cage frame instead of plastic, not that either is 100% superior.
> 
> ...


Like this one? 

Will


----------



## Mike Painter (Jul 29, 2006)

MicroE said:


> Wow, That's a great idea!
> I could add a "T" onto the water line between the well and the pressure tank. A second pump, the 120V emergency pump, could be fitted to the "T" and pull water from the well. The water surface is only about 20 feet below the earth's surface, so it could work on suction alone.
> Hmmmm. That's definitely something to chew on.


Handpumps  work at this depth and below.


----------



## turbodog (Jul 29, 2006)

There are 2 identical yamaha units. The only difference is that one has gfci outlets and the other doesn't. Well, there is like a $20 price differential also, but you understand what I mean.

But yes, that's the unit. Except wisesales.com has it for a lot less, and they ship same day.

I can't stress enough how good of a dealer they are. I've bought 10-15 honda and yamaha units from them as well as accessories like extended run fuel tanks, parallel kits, spare gas caps, and other stuff.






wquiles said:


> Like this one?
> 
> Will


----------



## wquiles (Jul 29, 2006)

turbodog said:


> There are 2 identical yamaha units. The only difference is that one has gfci outlets and the other doesn't. Well, there is like a $20 price differential also, but you understand what I mean.
> 
> But yes, that's the unit. Except wisesales.com has it for a lot less, and they ship same day.
> 
> I can't stress enough how good of a dealer they are. I've bought 10-15 honda and yamaha units from them as well as accessories like extended run fuel tanks, parallel kits, spare gas caps, and other stuff.


Thanks much TD - now I know what to buy and from whom :bow:

Will


----------



## Illum (Jul 29, 2006)

the Honda 2000i has a DC output recepticle

Whats the word on durability if say, you hook up a 220V inverter to your Honda's DC output just for the pump?

all this energy transfer...mmmm


----------



## turbodog (Jul 29, 2006)

DC plug is for battery charging only. Also, the cord is not included.

But it IS included on the yamaha.






Illum_the_nation said:


> the Honda 2000i has a DC output recepticle
> 
> Whats the word on durability if say, you hook up a 220V inverter to your Honda's DC output just for the pump?
> 
> all this energy transfer...mmmm


----------



## MicroE (Jul 29, 2006)

I was going to mention that I was thinking of adding a handpump to the well, but I thought that you guys would laugh!


----------



## turbodog (Jul 29, 2006)

Also, for those interested, I built an extended run fuel tank setup for the honda eu2000. It also fits the eu1000 as well.

If any are interested and have some web hosting space, I will photo the device and give build details.


----------



## BIGIRON (Jul 29, 2006)

Hand pump makes lots of sense to me. K.I.S.S.


----------



## Silviron (Jul 29, 2006)

Here is a 25 Amp transformer that converts 120 to 240 or 240 to 120.... 
$130 bucks
Surplus Center Transformer


----------



## jeep44 (Jul 29, 2006)

I've got a 4400 W genset,and the problem of keeping it supplied with gasoline for any length of time worried me-so I got a natural gas/propane conversion kit from http://www.propane-generators.com. The kit was very simple to install-basically a ring that feeds gas to the mouth of the carburator-so gasoline can still be used,too. 
Now,instead of having to keep a large supply of fresh gasoline on hand,I have several propane tanks, and a piped-in connection available on my house natural gas supply. I'm quite pleased with the whole setup now


----------



## gadget_lover (Jul 30, 2006)

I am not too woried about getting gas. It's never been a super big problem here (near silicon Valley). I picked up a 6500 watt (7500 watt peak) genset today. It runs though about 1/2 gallon an hour at 50% load according to the specs. That's not too bad, is it? If gas were in short supply I'd probably run it for an hour, turn off for 3 or 4, then on again. I have a deep discharge battery and 1000watt inverter I can use to power small stuff to bridge the gap.


It's hard to find an inexpensive electric start genset. I saw Costco has a 6500 watt (peak) electric start Onan on sale today $699

Daniel


----------



## Kristofg (Jul 31, 2006)

James S said:


> Power storage isn't what the capacitor is for in a motor start circuit. An ac motor runs just as happily backwards as forwards, what the capacitor across one phase does is delay that phase by a fraction of a second while it's charging the cap and therefore makes sure the motor always goes in the correct direction (or goes at all) but it doesn't affect how much power it takes to start the motor any.



My mistake, I was thinking of a DC driven pump, not an AC driven pump. In AC, the capacitor would indeed be no help there.


----------



## bfg9000 (Jul 31, 2006)

If you are in the market for a car anyway, a Toyota Prius can generate 220V. Saves you the trouble of siphoning fresh gas from a car each power outage too.


----------



## gadget_lover (Aug 1, 2006)

I think you are better off buying a 7KW genset for $800 instead of monkeying with the 300 volts in a nihm battery pack.

But that's just me.

Daniel


----------



## DieselDave (Aug 1, 2006)

I second Turbo, 2 gens from Wisesales as well as their very nice but overpriced 5 gallon aux fuel tanks for the Honda EU 2000's. Great service and nice folks.


----------



## Josey (Aug 1, 2006)

Ted gave you good advice. 

I'd suggest that you get a large propane tank and directly hook a large generator to it for power outagages. Propane doesn't go bad like gasoline, and you won't have to go looking for fuel during the emergency. You could convert your hot-water tank to a tankless hot water heater and save $200 to $300 a year, paying for the generator, and giving you hot water during the emergency. You could also convert to propane stove, or at least have a back-up propane stove for cooking, even home heating.

A couple L16 deep cycle batteries could power your electronics/communications, and a solar panel and small charge controller could keep them topped off until the power outage. You could rechage them when your running the large gen to pump water.

If you invest in some energy-efficiency appliances and solar powered hot-water heating panels and photovoltaic panels, you could have a system that pays for itself over a few years and gives you much better emergency back-up than anything you're considering now.


----------



## Bmccue1964 (Aug 1, 2006)

My last home had a well, so I wired up a 240V plug/receptical combination that matched the 120/240v output plug on my 4,000 watt Coleman (Subaru Robin Engine) generator. Essentially, I spliced female/male plugs into the feedline to the well pump/control from the well's circuit breaker. This way I was able to unplug the well and then plug the pump/control plug into my genny (via special extension cord) and pump away to charge the tank. I also had a similar setup for my gas furnace (female/male plugs). I did not have a transfer switch setup since I didn't want to shell out several hundred dollars to run a couple of hard wired items.

My game plan was to run the genny only 4 hours or so per day (4 times per day x 1 hour each time). During that time I could pump water and run the furnace heat up as long as possible (if winter). I also had a small inverter that powered a few CF lights and my TV (with an antenna since cable usually bites the dust too). The trick with the inverter was I hooked it to my car and I was able to periodically use my remote car starter to keep the battery topped off (car was outside away from the house). Some car starters have an option that will autostart the car if the battery voltage drops too low. Mine doesn't, but will run for 15 minutes before shutting down.

I figure that I didn't have enough valuable food in my fridge to justify running the genny 24/7 since the cost of the fuel would most likely exceed the cost of the food! If a problem occurred in the winter, the food would stay cold/frozen outside just as easily. Using the genny to just run lights and/or a TV is impractical too with the advent of very cheap inverters.

My new home now has a transfer switch (6 circuits) and no well.
I now also have a deep freezer in my basement. I filled the empty spaces (1 whole shelf) with 3 2.5 gallon spring water jugs (think 20 lb ice blocks with handles). This keeps the compressor from cycling as much and also provides a cushion if the power goes out. My calculations are that I could go for at least 3 days without power before the internal temperature exceeds 30 degrees or so. I also have one of those indoor/outdoor thermometers that uses a transmitter for the outside temperature. The transmitter "lives" in my freezer and broadcasts the internal temperature to the receiver. The receiver has a high/low alarm setting on it. I currently have it set to 0 degrees F as the high point.

Running the genny for perhaps 4 hours per day should keep the freezer's internal termperature back down below zero.

So, the long and short of this is to keep things simple and cheap. Use a similar male/female plug combo for your well and use a cheap 4KW genny. Use an inverter for lighting loads and TV useage. Think twice about the value of keeping the fridge cold. Keep a syphon for gas (from your car) and extra oil for the generator.


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 1, 2006)

did I mention Auragen yet in this thread?
it's an add-on generator you attach under the hood of your large car or truck, it can supply 5k or there is a 8.5k model, and that's with the car runnnig on idle -- hook it up with a remote car start and you're stylin' !

a link http://www.emergencyapparatus.com/auragen.html


----------



## turbodog (Aug 1, 2006)

Ouch!

The unit weighs 65 lbs. The controller weighs 52 lbs. That's 117 lbs!

You know how much that will affect your everyday fuel mileage?

Enough to make this not worth it.

And that's not even talking about purchase price.





TedTheLed said:


> did I mention Auragen yet in this thread?
> it's an add-on generator you attach under the hood of your large car or truck, it can supply 5k or there is a 8.5k model, and that's with the car runnnig on idle -- hook it up with a remote car start and you're stylin' !
> 
> a link http://www.emergencyapparatus.com/auragen.html


----------



## Diesel_Bomber (Aug 1, 2006)

turbodog said:


> Ouch!
> 
> The unit weighs 65 lbs. The controller weighs 52 lbs. That's 117 lbs!
> 
> ...



I wouldn't think that the equivalent to an extra person riding along would affect your mileage much. More noticeable will be the extra belt and weight of the rotor that your engine will have to spin up, like an extra flywheel. I'm gonna look into getting one for one of my trucks, won't notice much there! The actual Aura site is here.


:buddies:


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 1, 2006)

the "ECU" is the optional remote start if you want it, it starts the car from a remote location:


"Where are the AuraGen Control Panel (On/Off Switch) and the ECU (Electronic Control Unit) mounted?

The AuraGen's small Control Panel (On/Off Switch) is most often mounted under or within the dashboard area where it is easily accessible. The Control Panel measures about 3 1/2" x 2". Additionally, a Remote Start option is available for anyone who requires turning the systems on or off from outside the vehicle. The AuraGen's ECU can be mounted in a variety of vehicle locations. Typical installation locations include: in the bed of the truck, inside a toolbox compartment, within the rear cargo area, or under the seat in the cab.."


thanks Diesel for the Auragen site url, I was just going to post it..

here's some interesting Q and A from the site:
*
How much horsepower (HP) is required to run the AuraGen Induction Power Source at full-load?

The AuraGen is a highly efficient power supply. Approximately 8.4 HP is required from the engine when the AuraGen is generating 5kW of AC power and approximately 13.4 HP is required from the engine when the AuraGen is generating 8kW of AC power.

Does the AuraGen affect the operation of the vehicle?

No.

Can you pull full 5000-watt power from a single outlet or circuit?

You can pull 21 amps at 240 Volts or 42 amps at 120 Volts.

Does the AuraGen have brushes or slip rings like other electric generators, which would need periodic replacement?

The AuraGen is an AC power induction machine. As such, no brushes or slip rings are used. No maintenance required. (!)
---


----------



## turbodog (Aug 1, 2006)

An extra 100 lbs of cargo usually decreases mpg by about 2%.

I spend about $5000/year on gas for my truck. That's an extra $100 this thing will cost me NOT counting the purchase and installation cost of the unit, maintenance of the unit, gas cost to run the unit, or other various costs.

And I guarantee this thing's not cheap.


----------



## MicroE (Aug 1, 2006)

Bmccue1964 said:


> So, the long and short of this is to keep things simple and cheap. Use a similar male/female plug combo for your well and use a cheap 4KW genny. Use an inverter for lighting loads and TV useage. Think twice about the value of keeping the fridge cold. Keep a syphon for gas (from your car) and extra oil for the generator.



So, to summarize, you are suggesting the CPF (unofficial) motto: Buy Both!


----------



## Bmccue1964 (Aug 2, 2006)

Buy a 4KW genny, A 750 Watt Inverter (1500 surge), perhaps a deep cycle battery & charger (charge when runnin genny), and assorted cords and plugs.


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 2, 2006)

from the Auragen website: "...the Aragen converts a full sized vehicle into a versatile mobile power source..besides the 150 million dollar investment and over 500 man-years of engineering, it also was brought to life with over 20 million dollars in tooling and over four years of testing and qualifying..."

but Turbodog says it's too heavy and expensive and the gas to carry it around costs too much, so probably no one should buy it (especially turbodog) or even think about it any more. ok Turby?

sheesh.


----------



## turbodog (Aug 2, 2006)

I'm saying that for occasional general generator usage it's a poor choice. I am sure that it's an answer to prayers for others.






TedTheLed said:


> from the Auragen website: "...the Aragen converts a full sized vehicle into a versatile mobile power source..besides the 150 million dollar investment and over 500 man-years of engineering, it also was brought to life with over 20 million dollars in tooling and over four years of testing and qualifying..."
> 
> but Turbodog says it's too heavy and expensive and the gas to carry it around costs too much, so probably no one should buy it (especially turbodog) or even think about it any more. ok Turby?
> 
> sheesh.


----------



## Handlobraesing (Aug 2, 2006)

Couldn't you increase the pump runtime and reduce the cycling if you incrase the size of a pneumatic water buffer?


----------



## turbodog (Aug 2, 2006)

And as long as we're getting snippy with one another.

150 million dollars? Does anyone else buy this crap?

2 medium cost engineers and a few machinists could have designed, prototyped, tested, and produced a finished product for 1/10 of that figure.

20 million in tooling? Maybe if they are adding in the cost of the entire factory where this device is subbed out to.

I work in these areas, and there's no way this thing cost this much.

To go even further. You could probably get it designed and made in China fro the ground up for under $1M.

It's basically a honda eu generator with a dual feed inverter/charger.






TedTheLed said:


> from the Auragen website: "...the Aragen converts a full sized vehicle into a versatile mobile power source..besides the 150 million dollar investment and over 500 man-years of engineering, it also was brought to life with over 20 million dollars in tooling and over four years of testing and qualifying..."
> 
> but Turbodog says it's too heavy and expensive and the gas to carry it around costs too much, so probably no one should buy it (especially turbodog) or even think about it any more. ok Turby?
> 
> sheesh.


----------



## wquiles (Aug 2, 2006)

Guys (and gals), what about inverters to take 12C into 120V AC - are they all created equal (I imagine not)? What are the better brands that produce a pure sine-wave as the Honda/Yamaha generators discussed above? What about in terms of efficiency - do they vary a lot in this regard?

Will


----------



## turbodog (Aug 3, 2006)

Top brands will reach what?... 97%+ efficiency. Pure sine is a little less from what I understand, but still 90%+.

Even cheap modified sine @ wal-mart hit 85% I think.

I had, many years ago, a square wave inverter. Woo hoo! Talk about making appliances buzz and screech! It was 400 watts and weight about 20 pounds!





wquiles said:


> Guys (and gals), what about inverters to take 12C into 120V AC - are they all created equal (I imagine not)? What are the better brands that produce a pure sine-wave as the Honda/Yamaha generators discussed above? What about in terms of efficiency - do they vary a lot in this regard?
> 
> Will


----------



## Bmccue1964 (Aug 3, 2006)

Modified sine-wave inverters today are on the low end of the inverter food chain. They are fine for lighting and television. However, if you need to run a laser printer or run a motor efficiently, then a true/pure sine wave inverter is a far better choice. Yes, the cost if much higher, but I've read that the wave form often is better than that from most electric companies.

As far as a generator hooked to your vehicle, why? It's expensive and what do you do when you sell the vehicle?

Again, I'd stick with a 4KW Home Depot generator for the stuff powered by motors (pump, furnace, fridge, freezer, etc.) and cycle it on periodically. For the other electrical items, use an inverter.


----------



## James S (Aug 3, 2006)

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that back in post #13 of this thread I was the first to suggest that you get them both 

To get a really huge, high class generator to run a very intermittent load like the pump doesn't make sense unless you have the cash to blow on a full replacement system. My inlaws have one, a buried propane tank with 2 weeks worth of gas for a 40kw generator! They can even use the electric stove and water heaters. It will be a very long time before a system like that is in the financial cards for us 

So a "disposable" 4kw generator as cheap as you can find one that you can start to pressurize the water tank as necessary, and a good 2k or so inverter based one to run the fan and the fridge and a few other small loads that you can leave running all the time and use up a lot less gas.

As far as a propane conversion kit, I've considered and looked into that a lot but I dont think it makes sense for me. A full tank like for your grill is only equal to 5 gallons of gas, so you'd be investing a lot of money in tanks, or buying bigger tanks. I'd need 3 or 4 of them a day to keep a bigger generator going. Running off natural gas is an excellent solution if the gas stays on. The most probable reason for an outage here though is due to a hurricane and when that happens they turn off the gas and the electric to force people to evacuate. So those aren't good options for me, but if you can rely on the natural gas connection then thats an excellent solution for longer term running without having to store gas of any kind.

What I'd really love to have would be a compressed natural gas system. I could refill it and top it off from the gas mains, and still have a tank of it here when they shut the gas off. There are home based compressors for that available for people with CNG cars, but the price is again just a bit out of the range for any project I'd be allowed to start working on


----------



## MicroE (Aug 3, 2006)

Does anyone have any experience with the Porter-Cable brand of generators?
My local hardware store sells several models that use Honda engines.
One model, especially, caught my eye: CH350IS. It has a Honda engine, 3500W with 7500W surge and 240 VAC output. Cost: $1,000.
It seems like this could be run the well pump (which turns out to be 3/4 HP), the furnace pump (1/2 HP) and some other things around the house.


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 3, 2006)

James S said:


> I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that back in post #13 of this thread I was the first to suggest that you get them both



well, I'd like to point out that back in post #22 (no less) that two eu2000 Hondas could be bridged with a cable.. 

also about keeping the water tank pressurized; I don't know what kind of pump you have to do this job - (did you say it was the well pump that did it?) - in any case, I have a separate 12 volt pump to pressurize the water for the house, and it uses only about 175 watts to do it; http://store.altenergystore.com/Solar-Water-Pumps/Surface-Pumps/Flowlight-Booster-Pump/c534/

..so when I'm running the gen to power the well pump i am also powering the inverter/charger which charges the batteries what powers the Flowlight pump, which pressurizes the tank, to about 50 lbs..


----------



## turbodog (Aug 4, 2006)

From my personal experience, there's not a lot of difference in high wattage generators under $1000. I'd buy based on warranty.


That said, here are some features that I consider standard on such a unit:
1. electric start
2. recoil start as a backup
3. wheel kit
4. handle kit (goes with the wheels)
5. oil filter
6. at least 4 gallon tank
7. fuel gauge
8. 12v output for battery charging
9. low oil shutdown
10. twist-lok connectors
11. regular 120v duplex connectors also
12. ground fault outlets.... maybe or maybe not, nice touch though
13. overhead valve engine
14. oversize muffler --> anything larger than a lawnmower muffler
15. cast iron cylinder or cylinder liner

That porter cable unit seems to have an awfully high surge to running watt ratio. Usually surge is only 1000-2000 watts over constant watts. Of source, this is a good thing if it's accurate.

Honda vs briggs vs generac/etc. All of these guys make good engines and they make cheap ones also. Honda's commercial line is the GX series.

At this price range, you are still in the disposable area. Even a cheap engine is rated for 400 hours. And 400 hours is a LONG time.

My single best recommendation for any generator is to run it! Don't let it sit for 2 years and expect it to perform well at a moment's notice.






MicroE said:


> Does anyone have any experience with the Porter-Cable brand of generators?
> My local hardware store sells several models that use Honda engines.
> One model, especially, caught my eye: CH350IS. It has a Honda engine, 3500W with 7500W surge and 240 VAC output. Cost: $1,000.
> It seems like this could be run the well pump (which turns out to be 3/4 HP), the furnace pump (1/2 HP) and some other things around the house.


----------



## cy (Aug 4, 2006)

having been through a number of gensets the last few years.... 

NOISE is the biggest factor. for clarification I referrering to DB or actual sound level produced by motor running. 

I had a tecumseh powered 5,000 watt from Sam's that was loud! One had to be careful where you located the genset running. as the noise generated would drive you nuts!

compare this to a nice overhead valve honda or yamaha genset. they operate very quietly... not whisper quiet, but quiet enough not to bother you when running honda genset closeby.


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 4, 2006)

thanks for pointing that out Cy. I certainly concur. The noise factor is major, and very few generators have the ability of the Honda to 'disappear' when placed 25 feet away behind a tree..

My first generator was a $400 1800 watt Coleman from Costco, and you wanted to wear earmuffs with that thing running..twice the money for the Honda is WORTH it..

..unless you build your own little vented yet soundproof box for a noisey cheap genny (I built one for my propane Onan 3600 watt, works ok if you point the exhaust 'window' away from you) -- and these days materials for the box will run you over $400 !


----------



## Diesel_Bomber (Aug 4, 2006)

Having some serious trouble getting ahold of the distributors in my area for the Auragen. Close as I can tell, they cost about $5k. I don't know if that includes the ability to generate DC power or the mounting and installation or whatever. Also from what I understand, they insist on doing the installation themselves and won't sell the pieces separately so you can install it yourself. A very serious downfall, in my estimation. Still making calls, updates to follow.

:buddies:

Edit: No luck at all with my phone calls, just a runaround. No one knows how much the darn thing costs or where I can buy one. I'm going to try sending an email to their sales team, if that fails then I give up. I'm frankly disgusted that it's this hard to buy their product. If I have a problem with it down the road I am going to have very little patience for CS like this, having already forked over several thousand dollars.


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 4, 2006)

oh rats. .. that's a lot of moolah for even 5000 watts..and you're supplying the motor, so you should get a break, oh well...seemed like a good idea at the time..

'course I guess they're hard to find, not everyone wants one..seems the sales reps are the first you shoulda gone to; certainly they'll point you to a dealer..

I know around here the place that used to fix my Onan generator (Cummins Cal Pacific) was willing to install an Auragen for me, soon as I got a bigger truck..


----------



## gadget_lover (Aug 5, 2006)

I was worried about the noise too. I picked up a CPE (CHampion Power Equipment) 41365 from Kragans/Checkers/Schucks that is rated at something like 76db at 7 meters. To put that in perspective, my noise meter says my TV is about 72 db at it's normal level. I could not hear it from my bedroom (50 feet and 3 walls away).

The acid test was to go next door and ask my neighbor. She has two kids in the rooms nearest my house. She said the genset was less intrusive than the lawn mower. I think the double pane windows cut the noise way, way down.

This is not a genset that I would take camping.

On a related note, I was suprised at the ease of starting it by hand. It has a 13 HP engine yet it started on the second pull and I did not have to pull really hard or fast.


About the porter-cable CH350IS.... It seems that a 6.5 horse engine can't supply enough power to create 7500 watts, so the surge must be an awful short one (as in short enough that the flywheel effect will keep things moving). I'm baseing the HP assumption on the fact that a 6500watt genset typically has a 13 HP engine. Is that valid?

Daniel


----------



## MicroE (Aug 5, 2006)

I had a long chat with the owner of the local hardware store. He is trying to confirm the surge current on the Porter-Cable units. At the end of the talk he was recommending a higher wattage machine. His philosophy seemed to be: More power must be better.


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 5, 2006)

*	1 horsepower / watts = 745.699872 x 6.5hp = 4847.0491 watts

.. when I had the 1/2 (Grundfos) hp pump hooked up it took over 6000 watts to start! (a 2500 watt 50 amp Trace sinewave inverter tripped off; it could supply 50 amps, but not 51 ! ) so I can easily see a 1 hp taking more at startup than a 6.5 hp could provide..

maybe we should look into "soft starters" - why not dial up the current slowly to the pump? like a light dimmer?


----------



## MicroE (Aug 5, 2006)

Yeah, I understand the math. The problem is in-rush current. The well pump is 3/4HP, about 600W. But the pump is marked 230V/7A. The 7A (about 1500W = 2 HP) must be the start-up (in-rush) current that is only required for an instant. The question becomes, how much of a safety factor do I really need? 
The furnace pump is 1/2 HP (400W) with the same triple inrush power (1200W) requirement. 

I need a 1KW generator that can handle the 3KW starting power of these two motors.
Yes, I am neglecting line losses, too.
It sounds like the world is pushing me towards a 4KW unit to run a 1KW worth of motors.


----------



## cy (Aug 5, 2006)

starting requirements can be established by using a current meter. then watch the blimp when starting. 

surge current capacities are rated differently by mfg's.


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 5, 2006)

Micro, I edited in some stuff to my post that I guess you missed -- google "soft start" and tell me what you think..

yeah it's silly; you need 750 watts continuous but for 1/2 second you need several times that amount, forcing you to buy many times current producing potential that you need..that's how the power company gets you too; they base rates on "peak current demand" so if your machinery demands 10 seconds of very high start up currrent per month, that's what you are billed for at the continuous rate..the power company justifies the charge by claiming they need to have the equipment ready to suppply that "peak demand" at anytime so they charge for it all the time, but we all know that peak current is called for rarely and not from every one at once.. 
what we need is a nice slow soft ramp up in current that will get the dern motor rotating.. ! I don't think this would hurt the motor if you didn't do too many times a day.. or do we have to replace all the ac motors wth dc?


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 5, 2006)

a current meter that goes that high is going to cost you.. and I don't know how fast those meters are --

just to give you an idea of how much the available power changes with time I found these numbers for a 2400 watt inverter (not the Trace numbers, but as i recasll they give you a good idea of the ball park..)

continuous: 2400 watts
1 msc: 60 ac amps
100 msc: 37 ac amps
5 sec: 3700 watts
30 minutes: 3100 watts! ...my sw Trace had a ceiling of 50 amps, if the pump needed 51 amps the Trace shut down..sometimes the pump was lenient and the Trace squeeked by and the pump would start and run most of the time, but every once in while; no go.. just another amp wopuld have done it -- but just to make sure everything worked all the time I swapped the 1/2 hp pump for a 1/3 hp pump (which actually pumped MORE water for less electricity! )


----------



## MicroE (Aug 5, 2006)

Soft start is an interesting idea. I'm not sure how to implement it with ac motors that are not designed with it in mind.

I was in Home Depot tonight and came across another alternative. They had a $300 gasoline-driven self-priming pump. This is a modification of an idea that was posted earlier using a Harbor Freight self-priming pump with an 120V electrical motor.

http://www.flotecpump.com/pdf/FP753(9-24-04).pdf


----------



## BIGIRON (Aug 6, 2006)

That little HF pump is not self-priming, so however it's used it must be plumbed to retain prime. (or primed at every use - a pita.)


----------



## MicroE (Aug 6, 2006)

BIGIRON said:


> That little HF pump is not self-priming, so however it's used it must be plumbed to retain prime. (or primed at every use - a pita.)



Yes, definite PITA potential. The gasoline-driven unit is self-priming, but it is another gas engine to maintain, fuel, and hand-start. 
I've been trying to come up with a system that my wife will able to handle when I'm on the road. Pump priming is definitely part of a KISS powering program.


----------



## Bmccue1964 (Aug 7, 2006)

After all these posts, I believe someone said that getting a manual hand pump would solve your water woes. I think that person is correct.


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 7, 2006)

that would be moi


  



TedTheLed said:


> i dunno if you're thinking survival and utilities cut-off it's silly to have a well and no way to get the water out..
> 
> ? hand pump your well $400-800; http://www.windmills.net/Hand Pumps.htm
> 
> (what no 'bicycle' well pump?)


----------



## DieselDave (Aug 8, 2006)

* turbodog said: Everyone that lived through katrina with a generator still has horrors about finding fuel for it.

I loaned a honda eu2000 to some family. 

They were able to run:
fridge
tv
satellite
2 fans
2 lamps
deep freeze
microwave (provided fridge/freezer were not on)

This stuff ran with no cord-swapping for 3 days straight. All in all, the honda ran for 5-6 days straight.*

turbo's early post needs repeating to anyone entering this thread late or skimming. The tops three enemies when using your generator when no power is available is #1-fuel, #2-fuel #3-fuel. Buy the smallest most fuel efficient unit you can live with. 

I started with a 5k unit burning about 12-13 gallons a day. That's about 50 gallons every 4 days. Do the math for a long-term hurricane type outage, say 12 days which equals 150 gallons. (mine was out for like 20-21 days) and you are talking about a lot of money. The money part is easy compared to just getting it at all. After a bad storm fuel is non-existent for the first week and then you wait in line for 1-2 hours just to get 10-15 gallons. That problem will last for the next 1-4 weeks. If you buy a nice 2000 watt Honda or similar you will use about 4 gallons a day. I actually have two EU2000's for a total of 4,000 watts. I can attach them to the aux. 5-gallon tank and run them both for about 20 hours at 75%. That's a total of 7 gallons of fuel to give me 4k watts, not bad. If I only run one at night and two during the day I can keep my fuel usage down to 6 gallons every 24 hours. That will give me 8 plus days of fuel with the same 50 gallons mentioned above. The other nice thing about the 5 gallon aux. tank is you get to sleep all night instead of getting up to refuel 6 hours after your last refueling. Been there, done that during the 2004 storm and it got old quick. I ended up shutting the Honda's off at night and running my gas hog because it ran about 10 hours on a tank. Before thinking I was wimpy don't forget what you are doing after a storm. Post storm means working your ever loving butt off to clean up, repair and help others do the same. A typical work day will be 12-15 hours. Having to get up fill the tank, restart it, reconnect your plugs and wash the gas off your hands will leave you laying in bed for another 30 minutes trying to go back to sleep. That's a time luxury you don't have.


----------



## BIGIRON (Aug 8, 2006)

Good post, Dave. This has been a good informative thread.


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 8, 2006)

also should be noted that the Honda eu2000 service manual calls for an oil change every 80 hours.. (do it while it's warm).

if you don't wanna get oil on your hands, wear gloves. there are also some very convenient and neat push button fuel dispensers available..

now to sit back and wait for my compliment from BigI


----------



## cy (Aug 8, 2006)

does anyone have experience with coleman 1850 watt unit? 

almost same size/output as Honda, for a fraction of price


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 8, 2006)

Cy! :hairpull: 



TedTheLed said:


> thanks for pointing that out Cy. I certainly concur. The noise factor is major, and very few generators have the ability of the Honda to 'disappear' when placed 25 feet away behind a tree..
> 
> My first generator was a $400 1800 watt Coleman from Costco, and you wanted to wear earmuffs with that thing running..twice the money for the Honda is WORTH it..
> 
> ..unless you build your own little vented yet soundproof box for a noisey cheap genny (I built one for my propane Onan 3600 watt, works ok if you point the exhaust 'window' away from you) -- and these days materials for the box will run you over $400 !



..does no one pay attention ? cy ... *sigh* ... cya.


----------



## BIGIRON (Aug 8, 2006)

Yes, Ted. Wonderful post. Particularly the hint about the gloves!!!!

One wouldn't want to ruin ones new nail "do" would one????

(He said with a grin.)


----------



## guntotin_fool (Aug 9, 2006)

As a contractor I got sick and tired of using gasoline generators for anything. (except for a little baby Daihatsu genset that we have used for lights and tv at the hunting shack). WE now use diesel generators. NOTHING better for a portable. Instead of a gallon an hour fuel use, we get up to two gallons a Day fuel use. Diesels are much quieter for the output and they love loads, although called portable they are usually something you do not want to be lugging around, but if you have a pick up or a trailer, they are great. Kohler and Onan both make great little diesel marine generators that will run forever and can be made into stand alone gensets with the addition of a thermostat and a used radiator from a junk yard. both will cost about 3 grand but you will be happy you did it.

The last generator job we did, we used 21 gallons of diesel in 2 1/2 weeks of running saws, compressors, lights, freezer and base board heaters in the house. Our last gasoline generator would go thru about 10 gallons a day loaded, maybe a little less, maybe a little more. so it is six dollars a day vs 30 a day to run. 

At my house, for a permanent back up, I have a natural gas fired generator that is wired in to the house, all up cost was about 3500 for everything... this is set on a demand switch, if there is need and no power on the line, it will kick on, it kicks on every week for 8 mins or so to keep the oil turned over and the seals used. Last time we had a power outage it lasted four days as we are on the end of the loop, so we get the last truck. it pays for me, Plus the neighbors now pay me $20 a day for power when the power goes out. so I figure that pays for the NG that i use. 

http://www.duropower.com/item.asp?PID=100&FID=1&level=0

http://www.generatorjoe.net/product.asp?0=541&1=553&3=833

http://www.generatorjoe.net/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=541&1=556&2=-1

http://www.generatorjoe.net/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=541&1=552&2=-1\

http://www.generatorjoe.net/product.asp?0=541&1=204&3=1169


----------



## turbodog (Aug 9, 2006)

I do. It's a scaled down cheap 4000w model. It's got a 3.5hp lawnmower/cheapo engine.

I guess it's decent for the price, but it's no honda eu series.




cy said:


> does anyone have experience with coleman 1850 watt unit?
> 
> almost same size/output as Honda, for a fraction of price


----------



## benh (Aug 15, 2006)

What's the difference between the Yamaha EF3800i and the YG2800i? Looks like the EF will deliver a full 20 amps to a circuit, and they're otherwise the same? They both otherwise appear to be inverter generators, and the EF has a smaller fuel tank.


----------



## turbodog (Aug 15, 2006)

You mean ef2800i? Or 3800?




benh said:


> What's the difference between the Yamaha EF3800i and the YG2800i? Looks like the EF will deliver a full 20 amps to a circuit, and they're otherwise the same? They both otherwise appear to be inverter generators, and the EF has a smaller fuel tank.


----------



## jtr1962 (Aug 15, 2006)

MicroE said:


> Yeah, I understand the math. The problem is in-rush current. The well pump is 3/4HP, about 600W. But the pump is marked 230V/7A. The 7A (about 1500W = 2 HP) must be the start-up (in-rush) current that is only required for an instant.


The 230V/7A comes from the fact that the voltage and current aren't in phase, and has nothing to do with inrush current. The pump does indeed use 7 amps _continously_ when it's running but since the current is out of phase with the voltage (motors are for the most part an inductive load) the RMS power used over a single cycle is 600 watts or so. Therefore, this particular load has a _power factor_ of 600/1610 or 37%. Resistive loads have a power factor approaching unity (i.e. volts times amps is only slightly more than the RMS power). Some motors are actually power factor corrected so that the PF is closer to unity. The problem with low power factors is that the I²R line conductor heating is much higher than it would otherwise be. In the case of the pump, if the power factor was unity then the current would be about 2.6 amps. Since it's 7 amps instead the resistive heating in the line is (7/2.6)² = 7.25 times as much. This is why commercial customers pay based on volt-amps rather than watts (they're not the same thing unless you're talking DC power).

As for the inrush current, I wouldn't be surprised if it's on the order of 20 or 30 amps for a tenth of a second or so. Yes, it is possible to soft-start AC motors without any long-term ill effects, and provided they're not under a heavy load requiring lots of torque to start moving. The downside is that the control circuitry still costs quite a bit.


----------



## Diesel_Bomber (Aug 15, 2006)

Just an update on my Auragen quest. No response at all to my various calls and emails. :thumbsdow


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 15, 2006)

jtr- I don't understand half of it but somehow it sounds like you know what you're talking about! I thought softstart could be the cure for greatly oversized genrators.. if it worked a lot of generators could be half the size they are now..

so could you suggest some soft start units ? If the unit were portable it might prove economical..


----------



## benh (Aug 15, 2006)

Yeah, I typoed. That was EF2800i and YG2800i. Looks like the EF has non GFCI outlets and the YG is the "industrial" model. 2yr warranty on the EF, vs 1 on the YG.

I'm not sure I trust the power output specs on the wise sales page, as I've seen the YG and EF quoted at identical power output, amperage-wise on other pages.


----------



## jtr1962 (Aug 15, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> jtr- I don't understand half of it but somehow it sounds like you know what you're talking about! I thought softstart could be the cure for greatly oversized genrators.. if it worked a lot of generators could be half the size they are now..
> 
> so could you suggest some soft start units ? If the unit were portable it might prove economical..


I found these in a surplus place but the one for single phase motors is sold out. Even surplus these cost a small fortune. You might try eBay as well. The only way to get these at any reasonable price is via surplus, and most of the units I've seen are for three phase motors. Hopefully in the future soft start and variable speed AC motor controls will get cheaper. I've often wished that air conditioning units for one could be made with variable speed compressors so as to supply just the needed cooling power rather than the annoying cycling on and off.


----------



## Brock (Aug 15, 2006)

I have used these
http://cgi.ebay.com/COMPRESSOR-Hard...ryZ20598QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Supco super boost spp6 with a lot of success. I used to have a hard time starting our 2.5 ton AC on the inverters (stacked 2.5kw inverters) 5kw total. So I added this to the AC motor and it starts every time now. I am not sure exactly how it works but I can assure it does and for not much $.


----------



## turbodog (Aug 15, 2006)

From actually speaking with my source at Wise, they are the exact same unit except for the gfci outlet.

Same engine, even though one says cast iron sleeve and the other doesn't.

I mean, they're only about $20 apart. They can't be that different!

They are some nice units. If I were to replace my eu2000i I would look VERY seriously at one or the other.

They are as quiet as the honda except the exhaust has a different "tone" to it. It's quiet but does have an "engine" sound to it. The honda's noise level is a "hum" of varying intensity.





benh said:


> Yeah, I typoed. That was EF2800i and YG2800i. Looks like the EF has non GFCI outlets and the YG is the "industrial" model. 2yr warranty on the EF, vs 1 on the YG.
> 
> I'm not sure I trust the power output specs on the wise sales page, as I've seen the YG and EF quoted at identical power output, amperage-wise on other pages.


----------



## benh (Aug 15, 2006)

We've had some serious power outages here recently, and while I got lucky, luck's no way to plan contingencies. I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on a genset, and it's more or less a toss-up between the Yamaha 2800i, either EF or YG, or the Honda EU3000is.

Looks like they both offer approximately the same power specs. 2800 peak on the Yamaha, and 3000 peak on the Honda. 2500w continuous on the Yam, and 2800 continuous on the Honda.

The weight on the Yam is better by 50 pounds. I like the form factor (tubular frame) better than the the plastic on the Honda. Honda's quieter by 10 dB.

The Honda can be run in parallel with another one for higher output. Is that possible with the Yam?

Bit bigger tank with the Honda. Battery start on the Honda, recoil on the Yam.

Yam's cheaper by a fair amount, but I can't really afford either one without some shuffling, so that's less of an issue. 

Why should I buy one over the other? Never having owned a genset before, anything will probably seem like magic to me for a while, but I'd like something that won't kill me on gas consumption, will be reliable, easy to maintain, and durable.


----------



## turbodog (Aug 15, 2006)

I looked at the eu3000. It's a bear to move. The handles are at the ends and are a pain for one person to grab by themselves.

The yamaha starts easily with the rope. And I'll add this.... if you let the genset get so gunked up that you NEED and electric start it won't matter. By that time it won't run well even after it cranks.

I'm not sure if the yamaha will parallel, but I doubt you will need it. 2500/2800 is a good bit of power. It will easily run fridge/deep freeze/lights/fans/microwave/toaster/hotplate/small to medium window air conditioner/space heater.

Put simply, parallel operation is only useful for loads that a single generator is unable to run. And since both models are 120V only, they have enough power to run practically anything that uses 120V. Notable exceptions are: really massive air compressors, huge window air conditioners, and other LARGE things with LARGE motors.

If you need more power, just buy 2 sets and run them separately. But I doubt this is an option since you mentioned the costs in the first place.

Buy the yamaha. It's a lot cheaper and is a great piece of equipment. I bought 3 of them. It's not enclosed like the honda so you can get to stuff if/when you have to maintain it.

But if your generator experience is like mine. Maintenance is adding gas and changing oil.







benh said:


> We've had some serious power outages here recently, and while I got lucky, luck's no way to plan contingencies. I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on a genset, and it's more or less a toss-up between the Yamaha 2800i, either EF or YG, or the Honda EU3000is.
> 
> Looks like they both offer approximately the same power specs. 2800 peak on the Yamaha, and 3000 peak on the Honda. 2500w continuous on the Yam, and 2800 continuous on the Honda.
> 
> ...


----------



## benh (Aug 15, 2006)

Thanks. I'm leaning toward the Yamaha as well. Any comments on the EF vs the YG series? It looks like primary differences are these:

GFCIs on the YG (spoke to wise and they say that the GFCIs are something of a liability in a camping/home backup scenario)
2 Yr warranty on the EF, vs 1 yr on the YG.
extra bracing on the frame on the YG

Wise notes some power output differences and tank size differences, but those appear to be errors according to the Yamaha site.


----------



## Brock (Aug 16, 2006)

I would choose the Honda because it makes less noise. You have no idea how loud they can be when it's quiet out at night time. Personally I would go for the EU2000i because of the size and weight of the unit; you can move it yourself pretty easily, throw it in a car and drive somewhere while it’s not so easy with the larger units. But if need more power get the larger one, or get the 2000i and get a second if you need it.


----------



## turbodog (Aug 16, 2006)

Except the yamaha and honda are the same. The yamaha is a honda clone with a slightly larger engine and fuel tank.

The yamaha looks larger due to it looking like a "regular" cheap generator, but it's not. Check the dimensions. It's pint-sized.

The 3 gallon tank is _really_ nice.




Brock said:


> I would choose the Honda because it makes less noise. You have no idea how loud they can be when it's quiet out at night time. Personally I would go for the EU2000i because of the size and weight of the unit; you can move it yourself pretty easily, throw it in a car and drive somewhere while it’s not so easy with the larger units. But if need more power get the larger one, or get the 2000i and get a second if you need it.


----------



## cy (Aug 16, 2006)

quality of yamaha and honda is so close. you really can't go wrong with either one..


----------



## Brock (Aug 16, 2006)

turbodog said:


> Except the yamaha and honda are the same. The yamaha is a honda clone with a slightly larger engine and fuel tank.
> 
> The yamaha looks larger due to it looking like a "regular" cheap generator, but it's not. Check the dimensions. It's pint-sized.
> 
> The 3 gallon tank is _really_ nice.



I agree they are both great gensets and both well built but the Honda is rated at 10db less, not much number wise but on a quiet night 10db can make all the difference. I am not saying to go with one or the other, just keeping these things in mind when buying. I can't tell you how many times I ran to a friends or relatives house with a small genset to run a fridge or freezer in a power outage.


----------



## HarryN (Aug 16, 2006)

Just agreeing with the post by Guntotin Fool - fuel cost will quickly swamp your purchase cost. Diesel is a very attractive option for generators.

In the year leading up to the Y2K event, I looked at the potential need to run on a generator, factoring in as well the cost I was paying for electricity in general. At the time, gasoline was under $ 2 / gallon, and it would have easily cost me $ 1000 / month (or more) to run the basics around the house. The savings with a diesel are substantial.

As far as a hand pump, I think most wives would rather start up a generator and add fuel then run a hand pump for water.


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 16, 2006)

since there may be a few new prospective Honda owners out there, here's the Official Honda Shop Manual (#61Z0700) on certain specificationsnote oil change recommendations)

Valve clearance: IN 0.15+- 0.02mm; OUT 0.20 +- 0.02mm
Valve Springs: (free height) 25.8mm (both)
SparkPlug Gap: 0.6-0.7mm (0.024-0.028 in)
Ignition coil: Primary 0.7-1.1 ohm, secondary 12-21K ohm
Ign. Pulse Gen: Air gap 0.2-0.7mm @ 300-360 ohm
Valve clearance adj. requires special 3mm wrench for the adj. screw, they say. I say the entire procedure to get at the adjustment looks like no fun. Especially at the "every year or 200 hours" interval.

Schedule: first oil change at 20 hours, or fist month then:
Oil change @ 6 mo or 100 hours
Air Cleaner @ 3mo/50 hrs max
plugs @ 1 yr or 200 hrs
spark arrester @ 6mo/100 hrs clean
combustion chamber @300 hrs clean
valve clearance @ 1yr/200 hrs check-adjust
fuel tank/filter @ 6mo/100 hrs clean
fuel line @2 yrs check/replace

so sayeth the shop manual. ---

an "expert" online says :


Oil: Change after first month or 20 hrs and every 100 hours after that. (I think 50 is a more realistic change interval in light of the lack of a filter.)

Air cleaner: Every 3 mos. or 50 hours... clean it.
Spark plug: check every 6 mos./100 hours. Replace Every year/200 hrs. (I've never replaced a generator sparkplug....)
Spark arrestor: Clean every 6 mos/100 hrs.
Valve clearance: Check every year or 200 hours.
Combustion chamber: Clean every 300 hours. (?)
Fuel tank: Clean every 6 mos. or 100 hrs. (?)
Fuel line: check every 2 years. 
It holds .42 quarts of oil. 
---


----------



## Brock (Aug 17, 2006)

I would also add to use synthetic oil. It tends to hold more particulates then regular oil so it will hold up longer, especially in this case with no oil filter. Synthetic also breaks down 150 to 200 degrees above regular oil as well.


----------



## robk (Aug 17, 2006)

Just a note on the oil. The RV forums where the EU2000i is King recommend breaking in the generator with regular oil, then from that point on use synthetic. Apparently, regular oil allows all the metal parts to "wear in" and seat properly, synthetic is too slippery. I put a small stick-on hourmeter on mine to keep track of usage.

Rob


----------



## benh (Aug 17, 2006)

Pretty sure I'm going to go with the Yamaha. As for YG or EF, I'm leaning towards the YG, for the GFCIs and the slightly sturdier frame. Wise Sales said that the GFCIs could be a liability in a home/camping use scenario, as they might trip frequently. Comments?


----------



## MoonRise (Aug 17, 2006)

If a GFCI trips, there's -usually- a ground fault or current leak somewhere.

Sturdy frame and GFCIs? What's not to like?


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 18, 2006)

I have gfi outlets on my generator that trip when nothing else will trip. The Trace sw inverter 'likes' the circuit (ie works with it) but for some reason the I can't get juice from the genny through them to go to the well pump. Luckily there are other non-gfi outputs on the gen I can use.

I assume that the gfi is so super-sensitive that just a miliamp or two will trip them, caused by, I'm guessing more here, a little moisture somewhere in the 200 foot wire run..

..so for this reason I don't like gfi's; the slightest current leakage to the ground and you're out of business -- and I can't seem to avoid a tiny amount of current leakage..

any suggestions?


----------



## Brock (Aug 18, 2006)

I also have had issues with GFCI's. I am sure they are good at what they do, but if used in a marine environment they trip every time no matter what. We have 3 gensets at work, during a storm we had all three fired up and running. The GFCI unit would keep tripping out and never stay on, fortunately it had a non-GFCI outlets as well.

Just another thing to keep in mind when choosing. I personally wouldn't recommend one to use for emergency power needs, but in a more permanent or installed situation I would recommend it.


----------



## cy (Aug 18, 2006)

go with the non gfi unit, because it comes with a two year warranty VS one with gfi 

you need to hook a ground wire from genset to a cold water pipe anyways...


----------



## Wolfen (Aug 19, 2006)

cy said:


> go with the non gfi unit, because it comes with a two year warranty VS one with gfi
> 
> you need to hook a ground wire from genset to a cold water pipe anyways...




Or sink a copper rod into the ground with a wire wrapped around which is then attached to a bolt.


----------



## guntotin_fool (Aug 19, 2006)

I will say it again, before you buy a gas powered one, look at a diesel.

six dollars a day vs 50 or more in fuel costs. a week or more and the cost difference is made up. 

the durability of diesels. I have a small diesel genset,welder combo that had 3,000 hours on it when I got it. have had to do nothing to it since except change the oil. 

I think I have 6K hours on it now, or very close. will your honda/yamaha run that long?


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 19, 2006)

no.
but can you lift your diesel with one hand and put it in the car trunk?


----------



## BB (Aug 20, 2006)

Allowed leakage current for UL/NRTL corded devices is around 1-3-5 milliamps, depending on the specific application (more than that, you would need warning labels and special instructions)--If I Recall Correctly.

All it would take is a simple filter cap to ground to get 1-5 milliamps of current (common in electronic supplies to keep emissions down). Plug a few of those devices into on a GFI Outlet, which trips at 5 milliamps, and you can get false or nuisance tripping.

The only answer is to use GFI outlets on circuits where grounding may be an issue (working outside next to a pool, in rain, etc.). Generally, do not install them where there is no water/sink/etc. nearby (i.e., living room, bedrooms, central heating, fridge, etc.).

Powering an entire house with a 2-3kW generator through 1 or 2 GFI outlets is not probably very useful as there may be enough leakage current to trip the single or pair of GFI’s. Powering a well pump (properly installed and ground) through a GFI is not really needed as there is nothing for a user to touch (well piping should be "well" grounded).

If you have a problem where you don't want leakage current (shorts and shocks) and don't want a GFI outlet--use an isolation transformer. This will help you to not get a shock even if one leg of the power circuit is grounded (this would be similar to isolating a generator from earth ground and only using the two or three hot wires and not connecting any safety ground at the generator). Of course--you can still get a shock/short if you touch the hot wires together.

-Bill


----------



## turbodog (Sep 8, 2009)

guntotin_fool said:


> I will say it again, before you buy a gas powered one, look at a diesel.
> 
> six dollars a day vs 50 or more in fuel costs. a week or more and the cost difference is made up.
> 
> ...



Now that the honda eu2000 has been out a while, stories are starting to appear where people say they are getting 5000+ hours out of one, with one claim of a little over 12,000 hours.


----------

