# Whats the real difference between the SF C2 and Z2?



## Brian321 (Mar 23, 2010)

I am wanting to buy another host for a malkoff drop in. I am considering the SF C2 or Z2, I have done some research and cant find a difference between these 2. Do you guys know what the difference is? Which one would be better for a Malkoff drop in? Which one is tougher? Thanks.


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## kramer5150 (Mar 23, 2010)

Mainly the overall shape, and finish. Electrically, thermally and optically they are the same.

The C2 has 2 O-rings at the tailcap, I am not sure if the Z2 does.


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## Kestrel (Mar 23, 2010)

It seems to me that the C-series is more popular on CPF than the Z-series. Also, from reading '18mm boring' posts by Sgt. LED & Modoo, it sounds like there was slightly less wall thickness to work with in the Z-series IIRC.


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## pwatcher (Mar 23, 2010)

Z2: 4.8 oz, no clip

C2: 5.3 oz, bezel up clip

no diff as to suitability for malkoff module.

whichever style rocks your boat, I guess?


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## JNewell (Mar 23, 2010)

pwatcher said:


> Z2: 4.8 oz, no clip
> 
> C2: 5.3 oz, bezel up clip
> 
> ...


 
Also:

price

natural HA ano versus black type 2 ano, so the finish on the C2 will be tougher. I think the HA ano on the C2 is why it tends to be more popular here. (The C2 and C3 also used to be available in type 2 black ano, IIRC.)


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## JNewell (Mar 23, 2010)

You didn't mention the 6P, so I will  I picked one of these up, new, from a local B&M store for $45 a couple of weeks ago because I wanted another host for a Malkoff drop-in. Yeah, it's type 2 ano. Yeah, it doesn't have a clip. Yeah, it doesn't work for some grips you can do with the C or Z lights. Yeah, it was half the cost. Oh, did I mention, it was half the cost??? 



Brian321 said:


> I am wanting to buy another host for a malkoff drop in. I am considering the SF C2 or Z2, I have done some research and cant find a difference between these 2. Do you guys know what the difference is? Which one would be better for a Malkoff drop in? Which one is tougher? Thanks.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 23, 2010)

I like my HA-BK Z2 the most


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## Kestrel (Mar 23, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> I like my HA-BK Z2 the most


I'm kind of into C3's, myself. 
(The G3 is included for scale, LOL.)


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 23, 2010)

The C3's are very nice, I will have to get one, one day.

OP, if you don't need a pocket clip, and plan on using primary cells, I would suggest the Z2. They are just as tough as one another, however I find that the round body of the Z-series are a lot more comfortable to use/hold in various grips.


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## NotRegulated (Mar 23, 2010)

I have the Z2, C2 and 6P. the Z2 is optimized for handgun use. The 6P is a round body for handheld use. The C2 is in between. It is also the only option in HAIII finish and it is the only body with a clip. 

Used black type II ones are for sale now in the Marketplace.


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## Brian321 (Mar 23, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> The C3's are very nice, I will have to get one, one day.
> 
> OP, if you don't need a pocket clip, and plan on using primary cells, I would suggest the Z2. They are just as tough as one another, however I find that the round body of the Z-series are a lot more comfortable to use/hold in various grips.


I like the looks of the Z2 and i dont need a pocket clip, That is the one i was leaning towards. But if the C2 is stronger that might change my mind. Why is it important to use primarys in the Z2 if i am using a malkoff drop in?

On a side note, I already own a 6P with a malkoff drop in and now im looking for something with a combat grip. Thanks.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 23, 2010)

I don't think that the C2 is any stronger, not to the point where it will just snap in two. Maybe the C2 could take a tank driving over it a little more, but they are both structurally sound.

I was just wondering if you were going to get a stock Z2 or a bored out one, that's all. If you were going to get one bored out, then I would suggest the C2 due to the greater inner tube thickness.



With the Z2 and a Malkoff, you can use primaries _or_ a 17670 rechargeable 

The combat grips are great by the way, nice and comfy!


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## Brian321 (Mar 23, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> I don't think that the C2 is any stronger, not to the point where it will just snap in two. Maybe the C2 could take a tank driving over it a little more, but they are both structurally sound.
> 
> I was just wondering if you were going to get a stock Z2 or a bored out one, that's all. If you were going to get one bored out, then I would suggest the C2 due to the greater inner tube thickness.
> 
> ...


I was just going to get a stock one and use either CR123's or RCR123's.
Thanks for all the help but im still not sure which one im going to buy:sigh:

When i doubt.....Buy both


ETA: Nevermind


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## JNewell (Mar 24, 2010)

Brian321 said:


> I like the looks of the Z2 and i dont need a pocket clip, That is the one i was leaning towards. But if the C2 is stronger that might change my mind. Why is it important to use primarys in the Z2 if i am using a malkoff drop in?
> 
> On a side note, I already own a 6P with a malkoff drop in and now im looking for something with a combat grip. Thanks.


 

As posted earlier, the only thing that's "stronger" about the C2 compared to the 6P or Z2 is the finish. HA will wear better/longer than type 2 ano. The body tube on the C2 might be a little thicker, but in real life I can't imagine that you'd ever bend or break a 2x123 tube under circumstances where you came back to report to us about it.  I've been carrying SureFire lights for almost 15 years and have bent and broken tailcaps and bezels, several times each, but have never damaged a body tube, even in the 6Z, which is probably the thinnest.


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## Brian321 (Mar 24, 2010)

JNewell said:


> As posted earlier, the only thing that's "stronger" about the C2 compared to the 6P or Z2 is the finish. HA will wear better/longer than type 2 ano. The body tube on the C2 might be a little thicker, but in real life I can't imagine that you'd ever bend or break a 2x123 tube under circumstances where you came back to report to us about it.  I've been carrying SureFire lights for almost 15 years and have bent and broken tailcaps and bezels, several times each, but have never damaged a body tube, even in the 6Z, which is probably the thinnest.


Good to know. I went ahead and ordered a Z2, I think i will like it. And we will find out how tough it is as its going to be my caving handheld light.


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## JNewell (Mar 24, 2010)

Brian321 said:


> Good to know. I went ahead and ordered a Z2, I think i will like it. And we will find out how tough it is as its going to be my caving handheld light.


 
My all-time favorite SureFire body is the 6Z/9Z configuration, but I have a Z3 and I'm sure you'll like the Z2 a lot and that it will serve you well and long.

FWIW, I like the flexibility offered by the Z bodies for a lot of uses beyond firearms use. I think the "combat grip" facilitates a lot of other general uses, too.


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## jaundice (Mar 24, 2010)

What's the difference between a 6Z/9Z and a Z2/Z3? I thought the Z2 or Z3 was just a designation change. Was there an engineering change, as well?

-John


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## leukos (Mar 24, 2010)

You can see pictures of the old 6Z/9Z (1996 version) here: http://home.comcast.net/~rdh10/http/Surefire/Surefire-1996-Ill.pdf


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## angelofwar (Mar 24, 2010)

Brian321 said:


> Good to know. I went ahead and ordered a Z2, I think i will like it. And we will find out how tough it is as its going to be *my caving handheld light*.


 

Eeekkkk...I woulda gone with the C2...the finish on the Z2 won't last nearly as long as that of the C2...plus the Type III ano and squared body seems to be easier to grip in wet conditions...at least from my experiences...

Well, you'll like it either way, just make sure you use the lanyard in case you drop it!


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## JNewell (Mar 24, 2010)

jaundice said:


> What's the difference between a 6Z/9Z and a Z2/Z3? I thought the Z2 or Z3 was just a designation change. Was there an engineering change, as well?
> 
> -John


 
I'm not sure I'd dignify it as an engineering change  but the 6Z/9Z had a full-round rebated section.

Edit to add that there were actually two versions of the 6Z (can't speak about the 9Z on this): one had a shorter round section than the other. When I bought the 6Z I still carry every day, the shop had both, and I took one of the ones with the "full length" rebated section. If you look at the 1996 catalog, on page 4 of the pdf, there's a picture of the "short" 6Z (the one I didn't buy).


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## Kestrel (Mar 24, 2010)

angelofwar said:


> I woulda gone with the C2


Hi there AOW, I guess us C-series folks should have directed him to KDOG3's *epic* SureFire C2/C3 thread for all the C-series eye candy hm? :huh:


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## Brian321 (Mar 25, 2010)

Kestrel said:


> Hi there AOW, I guess us C-series folks should have directed him to KDOG3's *epic* SureFire C2/C3 thread for all the C-series eye candy hm? :huh:


 WOW, thanks for making me go broke:huh:. Where do i get one of those cool orange ones?


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## Kestrel (Mar 25, 2010)

Brian321 said:


> WOW, thanks for making me go broke:huh:. Where do i get one of those cool orange ones?


LOL. You don't. Blackmail or extortion might be your best bets. :devil:

Edit: And there are most likely even fewer (like zero?) orange-anodized Z-series lights than C-series too. ;-)


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## Brian321 (Mar 25, 2010)

Kestrel said:


> LOL. You don't. Blackmail or extortion might be your best bets. :devil:
> 
> Edit: And there are most likely even fewer (like zero?) orange-anodized Z-series lights than C-series too. ;-)


 
That sucks. I guess they are about as rare as this all black penguin...


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## JNewell (Mar 25, 2010)

Brian321 said:


> WOW, thanks for making me go broke:huh:. Where do i get one of those cool orange ones?


 
ElectronGuru had, I think?, some orange cerakote SureFire 2x123 hosts for sale. I think they all sold but I'm certain he'll run more off.

On the C2 vs Z2 finish, if you're caving, they're all going to get looking tough. All ano, HA included, is vulnerable to surface "impact"-type wear. The underlying aluminum deforms and becomes exposed.


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## Brian321 (Mar 25, 2010)

Yea i dont really care what they look like as long as they dont crack, break, shatter, and still work. As far as they orange one i would not use that one very much.


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## ampdude (Mar 25, 2010)

If there was a type III anodized Z2, especially in natural finish, I would own some. I just am not really a big fan of the glossy black type II finish. The Z2 is a great light, and really light weight, but I like my lights looking pretty, even the users. And the weight difference between the two is really not that big honestly. If you want to go super light weight, nitrolon G2 or G2Z is the way to go. I do prefer the C2 in one way for the finish, but also for less superficial ones.

I usually align the filament of the light so that the beam is horizontal and not vertical. When I grab the C2 I always know the light will be aligned that way, with the Z2 the grip is completely round, so there's no way to tell. Though often times this is not an issue, especially with LF lamps which usually have a rounder beam than SF lamps. I also find the clip on the C2 useful sometimes. And yes, the C2 body is a little tougher and has a little more mass for thermal management with high powered incans and LED drop-ins, but probably not a whole lot more than the Z2 on either count from a practical standpoint. The C2 is just a badass looking light.


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## Niconical (Mar 25, 2010)

a natural HA Z2 would be great.


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## ampdude (Mar 25, 2010)

Niconical said:


> a natural HA Z2 would be great.



Yes, it would look really cool! The large rubber grip ring and black lanyard contrasting with the golden type III natural finish. Even the current SF gray type III finish would look great.


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## JNewell (Mar 25, 2010)

One word: Electronguru, at least if you want black HA. Not sure whether he does natural on the Z2.



ampdude said:


> *If there was a type III anodized Z2, especially in natural finish, I would own some.* I just am not really a big fan of the glossy black type II finish. The Z2 is a great light, and really light weight, but I like my lights looking pretty, even the users. And the weight difference between the two is really not that big honestly. If you want to go super light weight, nitrolon G2 or G2Z is the way to go. I do prefer the C2 in one way for the finish, but also for less superficial ones.
> 
> I usually align the filament of the light so that the beam is horizontal and not vertical. When I grab the C2 I always know the light will be aligned that way, with the Z2 the grip is completely round, so there's no way to tell. Though often times this is not an issue, especially with LF lamps which usually have a rounder beam than SF lamps. I also find the clip on the C2 useful sometimes. And yes, the C2 body is a little tougher and has a little more mass for thermal management with high powered incans and LED drop-ins, but probably not a whole lot more than the Z2 on either count from a practical standpoint. The C2 is just a badass looking light.


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## ampdude (Mar 25, 2010)

I've seen it, but thanks for the pointer. I'm just not that into black type III finish, though I do love my rare factory black type III Surefire E2e 3-flats with black type III twisty.


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## ElectronGuru (Mar 26, 2010)

JNewell said:


> One word: Electronguru, at least if you want black HA. Not sure whether he does natural on the Z2.



We got the HA black down:






Natural HA shouldn't be a problem...

BTW, despite appearances, destructive testing shows the Z2 to be more resilient than the C2.


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## ampdude (Mar 26, 2010)

ElectronGuru said:


> BTW, despite appearances, destructive testing shows the Z2 to be more resilient than the C2.



How so?


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## angelofwar (Mar 26, 2010)

ampdude said:


> How so?


 
+1...is it due to the cylindrical shape of the Z2 being more crush resisitent??? Do the cuts in the C2 (where they shave the aluminum down to get the squared edges) make the body more prone to "snapping"? I remember Sgt. LED (where is he BTW???) snapping one during one of his "test's"...


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## Kestrel (Mar 26, 2010)

angelofwar said:


> I remember Sgt. LED (where is he BTW???) snapping one during one of his "test's"...


How was it broken again, from recalling his post it was a gunpowder charge - any idea if that was that a jest? I think he posted on it in the C2/C3 thread, maybe part I??

Yes, I haven't seen him for a while & was wondering myself.


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## angelofwar (Mar 26, 2010)

Kestrel said:


> How was it broken again, from recalling his post it was a gunpowder charge - any idea if that was that a jest? I think he posted on it in the C2/C3 thread, maybe part I??
> 
> Yes, I haven't seen him for a while & was wondering myself.


 
I think he broke it on a toilet bowl...his son was trying to pry the lid of the toilet off I believe. He gave the lights to his kids and had them do crazy stuff with them to see how much abuse they could take...


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## Kestrel (Mar 26, 2010)

Ah, OK, that makes much more sense. :thumbsup: I was somewhat confused by his post back then.


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## JNewell (Mar 26, 2010)

> I think he broke it on a toilet bowl...his son was trying to pry the lid of the toilet off I believe.


 


Kestrel said:


> Ah, OK, that makes much more sense. :thumbsup: I was somewhat confused by his post back then.


 
Not as confused as he or his kids appear to have been?  As I said, I've bent or otherwise rendered unserviceable a couple of bezels and a couple of tailcaps on my 6Z in the last 10-12 years, a couple of times where I got hurt as well, but the one thing that has never had a problem is the body tube, and I would think that those old 6Z tubes are pretty thin, though I can't be sure how they compare to a Z2 or a C2.


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## Niconical (Mar 26, 2010)

So, the Sarge's kid, with muscle power and leverage, _was able to break a C2?_

Geez, if that's just the kid, I'm never pickin' a fight with Dad!


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## JNewell (Mar 26, 2010)

Niconical said:


> So, the Sarge's kid, with muscle power and leverage, _was able to break a C2?_
> 
> Geez, if that's just the kid, I'm never pickin' a fight with Dad!


 
I was just thinking that I'd steer clear of the bathrooms in his house...


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## Kestrel (Mar 26, 2010)

Well, remember it was a destructive test for a C2 that was bored for 18mm cells. But yes, re: the bathroom toilet, it's like the old joke, 'But you should've seen the other guy'.


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## nzgunnie (Mar 26, 2010)

If it was bored for 18mm cells, did it not break at the O ring groove at the tail cap end? That gets pretty thin on bored lights.


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## Kestrel (Mar 26, 2010)

It broke at the grip ring groove (BTW I measured my C3 and the wall thickness there is the same as at the o-ring groove.)

Not to cast aspersions on that body at all, it was bored out then simply stressed until fracture, no fault of its own, really. (Is there any real-world difference between being bombproof and strong enough?) :shrug:


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## ElectronGuru (Mar 26, 2010)

He pounded the weakest part of the body (under the grip ring) directly against the corner of a brick wall. Then repeated until failure. This was at the end of a series of tests when it was decided to get extreme.

Here's a video showing the first of the tests performed on the bored Z2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCZHY_0Wbr4


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