# Botach advertisement in CPF - Very disapointed



## LA OZ (Dec 1, 2009)

I am very disappointed to see Botach was able to buy advertisement space in CPF. Some of the CPF members may not be awared how many of us have been scammed by this company. I am one of them - see this link for yourself as I am not alone here http://www.complaintsboard.com/bycompany/botach-tactical-a3784.html and http://botach-tactical.pissedconsumer.com etc..... search google for botach complaints and see for yourself.

It is a seal of approval by allowing their advertisement to be displayed. I hope CPF admin could stand up for its members. Please band Botach from this site.


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## Greta (Dec 1, 2009)

You don't feel that they deserve a chance to correct past behavior? FWIW... they are under new management and I have spoken with several people there. I was very blunt in telling them that they may not be received very well because of past transgressions... this was BEFORE they paid for the banners... I didn't want them to waste their money if things were not going to be different with them. I was assured that the goal was to repair and change their reputation. I think people deserve a chance to do that. Time will tell.


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## DR_DEUCE (Dec 1, 2009)

I do not feel the company should have a chance to correct past behavior........I believe they knowingly operated in that manner. I might give a kid a chance for a redo, but not an adult. After reading the complaint thread, I would NEVER deal with this outfit. I worked hard enough to earn my money, and would never spend it at a business like these guys operate..........NEVER.
First bad judgment= shame on you.
second time= shame on me.


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## LumenHound (Dec 1, 2009)

Greta said:


> You don't feel that they deserve a chance to correct past behavior? FWIW... they are under new management and I have spoken with several people there.


New management but same owners right?


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## Greta (Dec 1, 2009)

DR DEUCE... that is, of course, your prerogative and I wouldn't expect anyone to spend their money anywhere they do not wish to. No one here is forcing anyone here to support anyone here. Don't know where anyone got the idea they HAD to support the advertisers here... :shrug:

LumenHound... I believe so. I really want to emphasize that I made it VERY clear that they may not be received well here. They wanted to take that chance.


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## Botach Tactical (Dec 1, 2009)

LA OZ

First off, greetings to a fellow Aussie.

LA OZ. We are certainly aware of the problems in the past, we have been brought on to help rectify any issue you had and I am more than happy to work with you, i urge you to please email me [email protected] or just reply to the thread.

We have inherited all the problems that the company has had and we are not ignoring them what so ever.

Please give me all the details of your order so I can look into it for you.

If you look through the forums I'm sure you will see that we are doing our best to get to everyone with a great deal if success. 

Improving company image is difficult but absolutely essential.

Thank you Greta for allowing us the opportunity to prove this.


Kind regards
Brendan
Botach Tactical


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## lightplay22 (Dec 1, 2009)

I was always afraid to deal with Botach because of the warnings of other people whose deals went bad. Its good (to me anyway) to hear of the company trying to make amends for past problems. 

Hope it all works out good for all!


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## DR_DEUCE (Dec 1, 2009)

IS THIS COMPANY UNDER THE SAME OWNERSHIP?????????????


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## Botach Tactical (Dec 1, 2009)

DR_DEUCE said:


> IS THIS COMPANY UNDER THE SAME OWNERSHIP?????????????



Yes DR Deuce, same ownership, new management...
Thank you,
Sagi


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## DR_DEUCE (Dec 1, 2009)

Sagi, thanks for the info.
Thats all many of us need to know.
Happy Holidays.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 1, 2009)

Embarrassingly, I had started to write a nasty rant against _Botox_ when I first saw this thread (didn't bother to read the first post). I had assumed the original poster misspelled "Botox" as "Botach". Given the plethora of poor spelling on the Internet this wasn't an unreasonable assumption. Only when I was ready to hit submit did I notice the Botach ad which obviously had nothing to do with Botox. Doubly embarrassing I suppose given that I didn't know there was company called Botach. Then again I'm more a general lighting kind of person who just doesn't know every manufacturer of portable lights.

I know my post here doesn't add any substance to the thread. I just figured it might elicit a laugh or two, lighten up things a bit.


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## ampdude (Dec 1, 2009)

DR_DEUCE said:


> IS THIS COMPANY UNDER THE SAME OWNERSHIP?????????????



I was also dissapointed to see Botach advertising here.

Botach Tactical, still owned by Bar Kochba. And his nephew Efraim Diveroli knowingly sold faulty ammunition for use by U.S. soldiers and Afghan security forces.

One of the owner's nephew's dealings:

Supplier Under Scrutiny on Arms for Afghans - New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/world/asia/27ammo.html

Judging by all the information you can find on them on the WWW not even related to Botach that whole family seems crooked. But, make your own judgements. I know they have ripped off ALOT of people over the years, including the U.S. government. There was a running thread on Botach for several years over on Glocktalk and some other forums, I think Bladeforum had one too. You can find some pictures of his nephew, but I didn't find a mugshot. I guess he's slated to go to trial soon.


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## DR_DEUCE (Dec 1, 2009)

AMPDUDE....I guess this doesn't move them to the top of the list here, does it?

As I was implying, adults usually don't change their colors.

I bet I could get banned here for a single sentence written, and wonder why the Admins here decided that taking some advertising money was better than protecting this community?


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## ampdude (Dec 1, 2009)

I have to say I was wondering the same thing. Though I would phrase it a different way. I'd wonder why the same rules don't apply to advertisers as apply to us.


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## Empath (Dec 1, 2009)

ampdude said:


> I'd wonder why the same rules don't apply to advertisers as apply to us.



List the rules involved that gets you banned, but not them.

The rules are here if you need to reference them.


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## ampdude (Dec 1, 2009)

I guess you are right. After all there are plenty of people who have ripped off others, many others, who did not get banned for it. Hell Light, Atomic Chicken, & Dspeck come to mind just to name a few.

If the forum wants to do business with Botach, I believe that sends the wrong message considering their past, well documented, long track record of ripping people off.

Of advertising things at lower prices than everyone else to get customers to their site, then having it forever on back order until you cancel the order. Or charge you then never deliver the item.

That is some of the stuff they are famous for in the past.


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## BIGIRON (Dec 1, 2009)

I received bad service from Botach several years ago so I stopped using them and posted my experience for other CPF'ers to see.

Based upon what seems to be an upfront approach and admission of the past problems, I agree with Greta and support her decision to let them advertise.

I've been given second chances. I'll appreciate them always.

And we'll warn the Botach folks ----- it ain't wise to mess with Ms. Greta........


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## ampdude (Dec 1, 2009)

I don't think they really have any choice other than to be upfront at this point, so I don't see any reason to give them credit for it. After years of persistent behavior, 'a second chance' is probably not the best analogy.


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## Botach Tactical (Dec 1, 2009)

ampdude said:


> I was also dissapointed to see Botach advertising here.
> 
> Botach Tactical, still owned by Bar Kochba. And his nephew Efraim Diveroli knowingly sold faulty ammunition for use by U.S. soldiers and Afghan security forces.
> 
> ...




ampdude,
Yes Efraim Diveroli is my nephew and NO!, I, nor my company have had any dealings with him or his company for many years.

The link you provided does mention that he USED to work here for "short-lived job" and does not associate or accuse me or Botach Tactical with his poor dealings.

You say that you "KNOW" we ripped of the U.S government and i don't know on what you based that false accusation! We are proud of our impeccable record and dealings with all branches of the U.S government. 

Being ripped off meaning we stole something from somebody. I challenge you to find me one person that we at Botach Tactical have stolen their money.

You wrote "well documented, long track record of ripping people off". On what did you base this false accusations? Can you provide a name, an order number? we all make mistakes but nothing was intentionally and 
We have never ripped off anybody, Please look up the definition of a rip off.

It sounds more personal than anything else, if you have been wrong with our company we will fix it.


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## BIGIRON (Dec 1, 2009)

OK. How bout "a chance for redemption"?


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## ampdude (Dec 1, 2009)

There's nothing personal here, I've never done business with you, nor would I ever.

Let us know how the trial goes. Too bad he can only be sentenced to 5 years at most.


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## LowBat (Dec 1, 2009)

I've ordered from Botach awhile back and never had a problem. I can however understand the resentment of those who had a bad experience with Botach and are now reminded of it with a banner ad.


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## LA OZ (Dec 1, 2009)

I could list all the issues I have with Botach but I don't want to repeat myself as many disgruntle former customers have already done so. Botach, what you have done is not a mistake; I have no doubt it is intentional. Mistakes don't take a few years to correct. If it is the same owner, there is no second chance from me!


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## Greta (Dec 1, 2009)

ampdude said:


> There's nothing personal here, I've never done business with you, nor would I ever.


 
Really? From the tone of your posts, I figured you had a past with them. Well, I guess it's good then that you don't, seeing as how you seem to have such a strong opinion of them based on other's experiences.


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## Greta (Dec 1, 2009)

LA OZ said:


> I could list all the issues I have with Botach but I don't want to repeat myself as many disgruntle former customers have already done so. Botach, what you have done is not a mistake; I have no doubt it is intentional. Mistakes don't take a few years to correct. If it is the same owner, there is no second chance from me!


 
So you're not going to give them a chance to fail again so you can validate your statements? Hell, I'd be all over that like white on rice! :twothumbs


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## greenLED (Dec 1, 2009)

C'mon, people, we're all adults here. 

Whenever you buy something, it's up to *you* to research the company and decide for yourself whether you want to spend your cash with them or not. Nobody's forcing you to do anything just because there's a banner add somewhere.


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## ampdude (Dec 1, 2009)

I'm trying to figure this out. First we had "Brendan" posting that the place is under "new management", now we have Mr. Kochba himself posting under the name? Funny stuff.

How long was the previous management around I wonder. And how much cover do they provide in deniability for the company's past history.

As far as I'm concerned, the ownership is responsible for how a company operates, not its employees.


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## ampdude (Dec 1, 2009)

greenLED said:


> C'mon, people, we're all adults here.
> 
> Whenever you buy something, it's up to *you* to research the company and decide for yourself whether you want to spend your cash with them or not. Nobody's forcing you to do anything just because there's a banner add somewhere.



Absolutely. The point is it looks bad and I think some will see it as a slap in the face. If anything, maybe this thread will serve as a reminder to Botach not to slip up while they're advertising here.

If we start again to have the same problems that Botach has had over the past years, people will start to voice concerns. Botach may change now, only because they HAVE TO.


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## compasillo (Dec 1, 2009)

Greta said:


> Really? From the tone of your posts, I figured you had a past with them. Well, I guess it's good then that you don't, seeing as how you seem to have such a strong opinion of them based on other's experiences.




Not my war but witty remark :thumbsup:


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## LA OZ (Dec 1, 2009)

I fear the banner is going to tarnish CPF's name. Lucky I am using Firefox and don't have to look at the banner.


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## DUQ (Dec 1, 2009)

lightplay22 said:


> I was always afraid to deal with Botach because of the warnings of other people whose deals went bad. Its good (to me anyway) to hear of the company trying to make amends for past problems.
> 
> Hope it all works out good for all!



Same with me. I hope to deal with the company for the first time sometime in the near future.


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## Empath (Dec 1, 2009)

For the record, one can do a search in the Cheers forum for Botach in the title, and one can do a search in the Jeers forum. What you find is 18 threads jeering Botach, and 11 threads cheering Botach.

Clearly, consensus doesn't exist. Some think they're worth cheering, and some don't. So, should we give the opinions of the negative the nod, and restrict what advertising they can purchase? (especially considering that so much of the negative is based on hearsay) Or, should we give the ones that have cheered them the nod, and count them worthy of advertising?

Actually, we don't involve "worthy" in such a decision. We sell advertising. We count advertisers as supporters. They support and endorse us as worthy, not the other way around. Those that support and endorse us certainly get our appreciation, but endorsements aren't what we sell. We sell advertising.

I don't see any justification in some thinking their "jeering" viewpoint is more valuable than those with a "cheering" viewpoint. We provide the banner ads. You provide your own evaluation of mixed opinions. There's no reason for us to side with you. We don't do endorsements, nor exclusions.


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## TooManyGizmos (Dec 1, 2009)

Why didn't they just change their name .......

Like DX and KD ... do all the time , when stuff goes bad ?
.


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## pete55555 (Dec 1, 2009)

In the past I did not deal with Botach because of all the complaints I read about but I recently decided to give them a try. I have placed two orders and both have been delivered quickly and the price (Glock magazines) was the best I've found. They do seem to be trying to repair their image. I would not hesitate to place another order with them.


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## IBCool (Dec 2, 2009)

Botach Tactical said:


> ampdude,
> Yes Efraim Diveroli is my nephew and NO!, I, nor my company have had any dealings with him or his company for many years.
> 
> The link you provided does mention that he USED to work here for "short-lived job" and does not associate or accuse me or Botach Tactical with his poor dealings.
> ...




As Mr. Kochba is distancing himself from his nephew I felt it only fair to include another link to well researched report on Botach et al http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/2008/03/botach-tactic-1.html . As far as second chances go, perhaps it is my guilt ridden upbringing as a Catholic, so in general I believe people/organizations should be given second chances. But given Botach et al's track record, how many second chances does one get?

John Rene


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## Monocrom (Dec 2, 2009)

Botach Tactical said:


> Yes DR Deuce, same ownership, new management...
> Thank you,
> Sagi


 
A major sticking point for many CPFers right there.

You have an uphill battle in gaining the trust of many veteran CPFers. In all honesty, if you went head-to-head against a tank while armed only with a toothpick; your job would be more likely to meet with success.


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## LumenHound (Dec 2, 2009)

Empath said:


> For the record, one can do a search in the Cheers forum for Botach in the title, and one can do a search in the Jeers forum. What you find is 18 threads jeering Botach, and 11 threads cheering Botach.


Is 18 jeer threads for one business a record here at CPF?


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## Greta (Dec 2, 2009)

LumenHound said:


> Is 18 jeer threads for one business a record here at CPF?


 
LOL! :laughing: Could be! If I have time, I'll count the # of ones for DX and KD and all of their "offshoots"... might be close!


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## Christoph (Dec 2, 2009)

They have nothing I want


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## JohnR66 (Dec 2, 2009)

As a small business owner (unrelated products), I like how this thread exemplifies how poor products and service can permanently stain your image.

I don't make mistakes very often but I have. In one example, I built the customer's product to the wrong size. It was my error and once corrected, earned a returning customer. It seems easier and logical to do the right thing the first time. That customer comes back and may even tell his friends. Treat the customer poorly and he may never return and warn even more people.

For one thing, it is my return customers who have come back with the BIG orders. Without them I would have folded.

I hope Botach is doing the right thing now, but as a lesson to any business, you screw people, you have an uphill battle. You might even be through.


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## Botach Tactical (Dec 2, 2009)

ampdude said:


> I'm trying to figure this out. First we had "Brendan" posting that the place is under "new management", now we have Mr. Kochba himself posting under the name? Funny stuff.
> 
> How long was the previous management around I wonder. And how much cover do they provide in deniability for the company's past history.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, the ownership is responsible for how a company operates, not its employees.



My name is Sagi and i'm a manager at Botach. Brendan or "Brendan" like you wrote is another manager and runs our Botach Defense site which is a site for members only and gives you the cheapest prices online (for now it's open to the public as well).
Brendan is from Australia and i saw that LA OZ is an Aussie as well so i asked Brendan to reply. 

BK (Bar-Kochba) Saw the comment you posted (not personal of course...) and wanted to reply.
Yes, we have more than one person working in our company.
This is beyond personal! you've never even placed an order with us!!!!! 
I just wrote it to help you "figure it out".......

Thank you for all the supporters and if you do place an order just sent me a message with the order number and i will process everything myself.

On a personal note,
I love this forum and as an ex commander in the israeli military i can tell you that forums like these are very helpful because we can always find the best reviews for almost every tactical product that is out there.
That is the main reason i insisted on coming here (I spoke about it with Greta too) I want to build our relations with you all.
If you believe me just place an order and you have my word, there will be no problems (if we don't have an item in stock i'll let you know right away).
If you feel like you don't want to give us a second chance, that's fine as well of course and thank you for reading.

We have a coupon that is only valid for CPF memebers : ' CPF ' gives you 15% off your entire order.

Thank you,
Sag


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## ampdude (Dec 2, 2009)

Greta said:


> LOL! :laughing: Could be! If I have time, I'll count the # of ones for DX and KD and all of their "offshoots"... might be close!



Considering more people here do business with DX and KD, and DX and KD are based in China.. well that's significant in my opinion.


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## csshih (Dec 2, 2009)

Logically, I think we're being a bit harsh. The owner knows his company had a bad reputation, and we will probably jump on him if any deals go foul!


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## Greta (Dec 2, 2009)

ampdude said:


> Considering more people here do business with DX and KD, and DX and KD are based in China.. well that's significant in my opinion.


 
EXCELLENT point! :twothumbs

And considering that both DX and KD change their names more often than some change their underwear, and have more "offshoot" companies than most have underwear, I have to ask myself what the big flap is all about regarding Botach Tactical? 

At least Botach hasn't changed their name or pretended that there isn't or hasn't been a problem. They have come here with hat in hand and are trying to make amends and fix their reputation. Whether they do that or not remains to be seen. 

I'm seeing a lynch mob with the rope already thrown over the branch for Botach but where are the ones for KD and DX? If I disallowed them (or any of their "offshoots") from advertising and selling on CPF, I'd be flooded with complaints from a whole bunch of you who would accuse me of being unfair and partial. If you all want me to disallow Botach Tactical from advertising and selling on CPF, then I am going to have to also disallow KD and DX and ALL of their sub-companies (trust me, gentlemen, there are more than you even have a clue on!) as well. Do you really want me to go there? I doubt it. 

So let's put the rope away for now and save it for when and/or if it is really needed. Otherwise, get more ropes... and we'll lynch them all! I am here to serve... :bow:


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## csshih (Dec 2, 2009)

Embrace Botach with a hug and a rope concealed in hand. While omnious sounding, I'm sure the owner will understand. I see no reason for a preemptive strike as of yet. Ymmv.


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## lonesouth (Dec 2, 2009)

Here's my experience with Botach: On Nov 5, 2008, I placed an order for 4 20rd pmags and 4 30rd pmags @ $12.95 each. I didn't hear from Botach in more than a month, nothing mentioning backorder was on the site, no emails, no phone calls. Eventually Botach canceled my order and later revised their price on the pmags to ~$16 IIRC. The only email I received was to confirm my order, that's it. There was no email for cancellation or backorder. Lack of communication along with what appears to be knowingly canceling an order to raise the price just seems to be par for the course for Botach. 

I was equally surprised to see their banner here at CPF. Hopefully they have changed, we'll see. If they are actually fulfilling orders now, and at a good price, I'll send them my business, but I certainly won't be the guinea pig.


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## Monocrom (Dec 2, 2009)

Greta said:


> I am here to serve... :bow:


 
And that's what we all love about you. 

We just wish there was some way to ensure that Botach had that same attitude. I guess that'll take time.

As for DX or KD. They're like the village-idiot who can find you a variety of cheap items. Problem is, he forgets sometimes. Then a month or two later, he remembers. Eventually, you get what you wanted. But you know not to trust the village-idiot with anything important or anything you need right away.


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## Patriot (Dec 2, 2009)

> What you find is 18 threads jeering Botach, and 11 threads cheering Botach.




Despite the cheers threads, 18 jeers is conclusive in my book and for that reason I would call it a consensus.

In any case, I have no problem with them advertising here. I'm not of the opinion that CPF's reputation is going to be hurt, as CPF isn't affiliated with Botach. Most people understand how advertising works. I was never ripped off by Botach but I have experienced a lot of order problems with them in the past. Items advertised and not stocked is one of my greatest pet peeves with online purchasing. Hopefully they've learned how to manage their inventory since my experiences a couple of years ago and with proper software it's very easy to do these days. I'm not sure that "second chance" is the ideal phrase here since undoubtedly they've been given a lot more than a "second" or even a third chance. 

My take on these types of things is that the market will work itself out. If Botach is really different now, we'll start seeing a lot of cheers and next to zero jeers. I think it would be great for people to post about their experiences both good and bad so that a new picture can be formed. Some may obviously never give them business again after the substandard ammo to our troops fiasco and that's their prerogative. 





> *Botach Tactical
> *We have a coupon that is only valid for CPF memebers : ' CPF ' gives you 15% off your entire order.






For the record the 15% off deal was not exclusive to CPF members. The coupon code "stimulus" was also valid for 15% off up until a few days ago and was widely known about on the various shooting forums. Anyone visiting your website was treated to 15% off through the large yellow banner at the top of the page. So in that regard CPF members enjoyed no deal beyond the general public. I see now that the "stimulus" coupon is back to 10% as of today in which case 15% to CPF members is now actually exclusive.


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## gorn (Dec 2, 2009)

My only dealing with Botach was a very positive one. Even though I had read the jeers to them a few years ago I needed a Gladius for my son who was headed to Iraq. Only Botach had them in stock and at a price well below other sellers. I called them, explained that I needed the light fast and was told that it would be shipped the next morning. I received the light 2 days later. 

I did find it surprising that they became advertisers here based on the negative feelings they have on the forum, but I also see Wicked Laser advertisements here and I know of their shady past. I have no idea if Wicked has changed practices, but at least Botach has owned up to past stupidity and says they will correct it.


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## Botach Tactical (Dec 2, 2009)

Patriot said:


> For the record the 15% off deal was not exclusive to CPF members. The coupon code "stimulus" was also valid for 15% off up until a few days ago and was widely known about on the various shooting forums. Anyone visiting your website was treated to 15% off through the large yellow banner at the top of the page. So in that regard CPF members enjoyed no deal beyond the general public. I see now that the "stimulus" coupon is back to 10% as of today in which case 15% to CPF members is now actually exclusive.



Patriot,
We changed the ' stimulus ' coupon to 10% long time ago but we got a lot of requests and calls asking us to change it back to 15% off and so we did but now it's back to 10%.

Only CPF members get the 15% off their order.

I just want to write it again, if you place an order with us please send me a message with the order number and I'll take care of everything.

Thank you for you comment,
Sagi


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## BVH (Dec 2, 2009)

Botach Tactical said:


> I just want to write it again, if you place an order with us please send me a message with the order number and I'll take care of everything.
> 
> Thank you for you comment,
> Sagi



As a neutral observer, there's two ways of looking at this statement. Either you send an email and get extra special service from Sagi or You have to send an email to get normally expected service when you place an order.


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## Botach Tactical (Dec 2, 2009)

BVH said:


> As a neutral observer, there's two ways of looking at this statement. Either you send an email and get extra special service from Sagi or You have to send an email to get normally expected service when you place an order.



You are right, i meant to say that we have a lot of calls every day and you might have to hold if you want to ask something and also we get lots of orders everyday so once i get the order number i can just go and get that order and take care of it myself (so i guess extra special service from me is the right one haha).
Thank you for letting me know about the misunderstanding.
Sagi


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## Roger Sully (Dec 2, 2009)

I've seen companies in the past where the actual owners had no clue what was going on with their business until the stuff hit the fan...
Could that have been the case here? I can't say, but it would seem from all of their statements that they are now actually paying attention to customers and to the products and services that they are providing and not just to profits.
With that in mind those who choose to do business with them should carry on and those who choose not to..well, carry on also! 
I just had to throw in my $0.02...:wave:


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## Woods Walker (Dec 2, 2009)

I ordered a hawk and light from them years ago. Got the order fast and there was no problems. Price was right too. I have heard of issues with this seller on other boards too but my order was done right. I hope everything works out.


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## GadgetProne (Dec 2, 2009)

My advice....Make sure you contact them first the day of your order if they have said product in stock. I have had 2 experiences with them. First was approximately a year ago, purchased a watch....wasn't in stock took three weeks to get to me.

Second experience...Just 2-3 weeks ago...Same time they became a presence on this Board. They had listing for a certain flashlight. I purchased it. Then come to find out not in stock. I at first let it go...but then cancelled order.

In fairness I tried to get same order from OpticsPlanet but they also said wasn't in stock after the fact.

I found a local dealer but had to pay $20 more and pick it up same day.


Botach has very good prices.....but you decide for yourself.


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## LA OZ (Dec 2, 2009)

I ordered a Gladius from them almost two years ago. The system indicates that I will receive a quote on shipping fee to Australia. I did not received the quote; they charged me $40US without first getting my permission. When the product arrived, the Gladius looks like it has been through some major action with well worn and scratches to the body and switches. These were not from shipping but from long term abuse to the torch. I have tried to resolved the issue via emails but did not receive any reply. I rang Botach and felt I am wasting my time from unhelpful staff.

As you can see there are some serious issues with Botach and are at various fronts.


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## Botach Tactical (Dec 3, 2009)

LA OZ ,
First let me apologize for the way you've been mistreated. 
The person who was in charge of International orders was fired and i brought someone else to replace her.
I can't answer for something that happened before i started working at Botach Tactical (because we replaced almost the entire staff) but i promise you that everyone gets an email and we don't charge anyone without his or her approval.
Again, i apologize and i understand your disappointment but i guarantee you that it won't happen again.
Thank you,
Sagi


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## DR_DEUCE (Dec 3, 2009)

It seems like we are placing too much emphasis on COST, and not enough on VALUE and PIECE of MIND.
As I see it, the only reason to use this outfit, is the lower COST.
So, you save a dollar or two, but you end up getting $%^#@'d during the process.
I am reading several posts from this outfit about all their problems, and how they won't repeat.
Why not think about the VALUE aspect of a transaction.
SOME PEOPLE KNOW THE "COST" OF EVERYTHING, AND THE "VALUE" OF NOTHING.

In my life, (I work on motorcycles in my garage as a hobby--for cash), I have guys calling me and asking me to work on their bike, cause they were TOLD to by one of their pals that I had done work for previously.


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## LUPARA (Dec 3, 2009)

No ordinary person can go into international arms trading without:
a) Letters of introduction or
b) Connections with unscrupulous people.

A little appearance of an add on CPF and even the loss of a few customers means nothing. There's bigger fish to fry and lights to try.


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## greenLED (Dec 3, 2009)

LUPARA said:


> No ordinary person can go into international arms trading without:
> a) Letters of introduction or
> b) Connections with unscrupulous people.
> 
> A little appearance of an add on CPF and even the loss of a few customers means nothing. There's bigger fish to fry and lights to try.


OK, I think this is heading in the wrong direction now... :shakehead


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## doktor_x (Dec 3, 2009)

My dealings with Botach (albeit limited) have been positive. Maybe I'm just one of the fortunate minority, but if they offer something I need at the right price, I won't hesitate.

I've done some questionable stuff over the years, but am largely regarded as "an honorable guy that does what he says he'll do" (collectively paraphrasing). I'd suspect this to be fairly representative of anyone with interactive exposure to the big bad world. Know your capabilities/limitations and choose battles accordingly.

Just my $0.02. Keep the change.


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## Patriot (Dec 3, 2009)

It seems that from Sagi's posts here that he's obviously very interested in giving CPF members the best shopping experience possible. What's happened in the past is in the past, so making Sagi answer for Botach's actions 2 years ago seems to be a waste of breath imo. He's the new manager now and is obviously looking for a fresh start with us. 

Again, those with personal objections relating to the ethics of the owner, Bar, are not forced to buy anything from this company. If the mere site of the company's ad banner here is perceived as that large of an issue, it might be time for some thicker skin.


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## 1 what (Dec 3, 2009)

This is all getting a bit sad!
It seems to me that it started with a Member expressing an opinion re a management decision, a few others joining the party then a management response which failed to satisfy or calm the troops. The alleged miscreant conceding some past transgressions and distancing himself from others all of which seemed to excite the correspondents in spite of him asking for a chance to show he can do better (with the apparent support of Management).

It saddens me to see we have descended more and more to “name calling” (I agree with GreenLED re the wrong direction) and I can’t imagine how there will ever be consensus on this issue. It’s beginning to look like a 1950’s Western with the Lynch Mob defying the Sheriff and closing in on the alleged Villain. 

Surely we can do better than this? (In Australia we have a sporting tradition that if the Referee makes a call you don’t like you might “BOO” but you don’t try to storm the field and hound him off).


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## geepondy (Dec 3, 2009)

Me too. I used them a few times with no problems. I used to buy the 20 CR123s for $20. I think if they are willing to pay the advertising cost, they have a right to advertise and you as a consumer have a right to choose whether or not to do business with them. Choice is good!




doktor_x said:


> My dealings with Botach (albeit limited) have been positive. Maybe I'm just one of the fortunate minority, but if they offer something I need at the right price, I won't hesitate.
> 
> 
> Just my $0.02. Keep the change.


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## Josey (Dec 3, 2009)

I'm in the interesting position of understanding and agreeing with all positions here, from management to Botach to disgruntled former customers to members who expect banner ads represent something more than an ad.

But the bottom line for me is that a second chance is not a third chance. Let's give Botach a chance to make amends and re-enter CPF and earn our respect. The operative terms are "chance" and "earn."


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## PhantomPhoton (Dec 4, 2009)

Myself I've had a less than pleasant dealing with Botach. As best as I can recall this is the jist of my experience:

I had heard of issues with them so I figured I'd give them a test myself. Botach had a very poor reputation from the LEO community when I volunteered for one several years back. 

IIRC the website had some old Inova X1's on sale and I figured that would be a good feeler purchase. I also browsed around and put a couple hanks of small diameter rope in my cart (as of course you can never have too much rope), etc.

I put in my order ans waited. A couple weeks later I was called... yeah it took weeks to the best of my recollection. :shakehead I was informed that the flashlight wasn't actually in stock another item, one particular diameter of rope... and so we amended my order. Well, I wasn't happy about the fact that the website stated that they had one thing, and they actually didn't, but no harm done in the end.

Then a while later (I think on the same day) Botach calls me. They had an issue with my shipping address being different from my credit card billing address and the fact that my billing address was a PO Box. Well, that's fine I guess, although I'd never before had an issue with this and I've done a lot of e-commerce. So I explain to the lady that I am (was at that time) in an address protection program and that is why my legal address was a PO box, and if she had an isue they could contact the State of Washington. I gave her the hotline number for the program so that she could pursue any means she required in verifying my valid participation in the program and gave her the specific law for the Revised Code of Washington which allowed the program, etc. I also volunteered to fax a copy of my State issued ID which had the PO box as my legal address, and a copy of my program ID card.

The next day I get a rather rude message on my phone from the lady telling me to call them back. When I did call her back I'm told that no one picked up on the number I provided and essentially that I was going to be reported to the police for pretending to be government or some weird crock of @^%#. Well, I proceeded to directly contact the hotline and asked them if they had been down or not answering at any time in the past day, and if they'd had a querey on my participation in the past day. Both were negative.

So being the mild mannered person that I am, instead of spewing obsceneties and rage, I simply canceled my order and decided Botach was not worth my business. I have definitely chimed in from time to time when Botach has been brought up in various forums simply stating that they may not have in stock what they claim and that customer service is hit and miss.

However after a year or two to cool down, I am willing to give Botach a second chance. I too would have been very skeptical of the Botach ad (if I could actually see ads). However after reading the discussion, which I'm glad was brought up and was allowed to happen, I see that there is an understanding between CPF and Botach as to what's up. Botach the ball is in your court. You can bet I'll be interested in whether things have changed for the better, and if that [insert unflattering word for a woman here] has been fired.


In regards to Empath's post comparing Cheers vs. Jeers thread numbers, I think that's like trying to measure mass with a ruler... not a very effective or accurate way to do it. But fwiw, any place that has anything near 1/2 of it's threads there as Jeers, let alone ~62% Jeers, is obviously ticking a lot of people off and is very suspect to bad business practices. I would call a 62% unfavorable rating very conclusive. There is no such thing as consensus on just about anything, lest of all here on CPF. :tinfoil:
Due to the value of the OP, I'll keep on track and won't comment on topics brought up further down the post or on some other posts in this thread.


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## leukos (Dec 4, 2009)

Well, it sounds like one thing botach could do that would go a long way with customer relations would be to invest in software and a system so that the website accurately reflects in real time what they actually have in stock.


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## Search (Dec 4, 2009)

Hasn't this gone on too far?

Yes, there is well documented dealings with Botach that represent good and bad dealings. It's there, most people know, some will look for it, and others became aware of it in the first few posts of this thread.

They were compared to KD/DX but that is a bad comparison. The difference is Botach *didn't *change their name. They *did *change management. They *are *working towards a better future and better dealings with customers, new and old.

Everything that happened before Botach brought in people to eliminate all of the negative aspects of the company is nothing but history. We just need to let it go and see what the future holds.


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## LUPARA (Dec 5, 2009)

I agree that this has gone too far. They were indeed compared to KD & DX and it IS a bad comparison; because in all fairness to DX & KD they did not loot the American taxpayer to the tune of 300 million dollars and plead guilty to it. Inconveniences in shipping and product services do not equate to looting. Bad comparison. Maybe the OP new that but was afraid to spell it out. 

New management? NOT


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## Greta (Dec 5, 2009)

I do think this thread has definately gone way beyond the "scope". How about continuing any further comments and accusations in the Underground? (and don't tell me that no one will see it there... anyone over 18 can register and read all they want... no one is stopping them.)

Thread closed... this is not the Cheers N' Jeers or Lynch Mob forum.


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