# Quality Control and Chinese Products



## gcbryan (Mar 21, 2010)

Since there's a variety of people here on CPF with a variety of knowledge as well I'll throw this question out as I really don't know the answer.

Why is the quality control so lacking (particularly with Chinese flashlights)?

Their competitive advantage is low wages but this doesn't explain poor quality control since wages for the QC department would be lower as well.

Chinese people are humans just like the rest of us so of course their level of craftsmanship could be just as high as anyone else. They have universities and also send their students abroad to study. The knowledge should be there.

What is missing? How does someone go to work in the morning at a factory and decide to produce dive lights with attack bezels?

Or who supervises a factory where led driver circuit boards are produced where every fourth one doesn't work?

There must be some simple explanation that I'm missing. Anyone have the answer?


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## Lynx_Arc (Mar 21, 2010)

if you sell something very cheap people figure it is disposable so quality is less of an issue. Say an american light costs $10 to buy, a chinese light costs $2 to buy so if you buy one american light and it fails you get upset and ask for your money back but if you buy 3 chinese lights and 2 of them fail and the third one is good you still are $4 ahead of the $10 light and don't have to bother with returns. Now at times ALL the chinese lights will be bad but typically when they get that bad people won't buy them at all because most realize if they cannot get something to work after replacing it several times it is time to pay more and stop throwing money away.


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## choombak (Mar 21, 2010)

"You get what you pay for" - not all Chinese lights are bad, but if you get a $3 Chinese light, and expect it to work as good as a $30 US made, then your expectations are misplaced in the first place. A visit to dealextreme.com and looking up the flashlights there will convince you. They have a $3 flashlight, which outputs maybe the same amount of light and is waterproof as a $30 Fenix. 

Having said that, China offers distinct advantages for saving money:
(a) large number of hands for cheap
(b) proximity to Taiwan, Korea, Japan and Hong Kong which house a large number of electronic parts factories. These factories produce "cheap" parts, which are unbranded and hence cost a fraction of what they license through IBM (for eg.)
(c) resonably open economy, where the Government is promoting similar jobs and activities (eg. Guang Dong province -- see the GDP table)

As a reason, you have the "flexibility" of manufacturing a $2 flashlight, or a $20 one. Fenix, Olight, iTP, Nitecore brands of flashlights are based in China, and manufacture some of the best lights in the market. Their costs are at par with any American brand, and so is their quality control at par with any American brand.

US lacks the "sheer numbers" - for one pair of hand, China has ten at 1/10th the cost, which is why we see more and more stuff being manufactured in China. 

Please note that I am writing from a neutral point of view, without any bias or consideration to "they took our job" attitude. Appeals to "Made in USA" make an emotional as well as financial fool out of you (my personal opinion).

-Amarendra


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## LEDninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Fenix, Nitecore, Olight, Lumapower and Dereelight are Chinese companies with factories in China. Not all Chinese companies lack quality control.

There is also the issue of factory rejects. Factory rejects tend to be sold locally to minimize losses. Some of them end up at the Chinese online dealers and cheap Americans and Europeans think they are getting a deal.
Costco sells 3AAA 1W Luxeon flashlights called the Element 2 for $26 for years. No complaints on CPF. Then one day I saw the same flashlight with a Cree LED no less on DX. DX dropped the flashlight like a hot potato when the complaints and returns start rolling in. Looks like some enterprising individual bought up the factory rejects and swapped LEDs without fixing the other problems which caused them to be rejected.

Some Chinese companies are trying very hard to improve their QC/QA. A little known company called Jetbeam came up with a Civictor clone with a Cree LED called the CLE. There were 2 group buys and a Hong Kong online dealer started carrying them. Then the complaints showed up along with reports of the unresponsiveness of Jetbeam. A CPF member counted up the complaints and came up with a 40% failure rate. Jetbeam promised to do better. The complaints continued. Jetbeam finally announced they restructured the company to have a separate QC department and all flashlights will be sent to an outside company for a 2nd QC check before sale. Now Jetbeam is a much recommended flashlight.


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## nfetterly (Mar 21, 2010)

I work in the pulp & paper industry - my previous job was as an equipment supplier that sold systems for recycling paper - we would sell all the equipment prior to a paper machine for a recycling or deinking system (China has VERY little wood - so in a few cases they import wood chips, or they import waste paper to make pulp to make paper or boxes).

The mills I was in - they didn't know how to reasonable test the process in order to make good pulp. This includes from test frequency to test sample size, to taking the sample. The sample size they would take was almost always small - as they didn't want to spill any pulp on the floor (make a mess). How clean the mill was - was a top priority.

In the largest of paper / board companies in China we sold 3 systems - housed in one building, 1100 tpd, 700 tpd and 400 tpd - all from waste paper, with ALOT of equipment and process loops. They had one person testing per shift - and when we showed up to optimize the system they could not do the most basic test because they had a piece of lab equipment that wasn't working (drying oven). While they had one person testing quality they had ~100 people sorting waste paper.

It is as if culturally they have an issue with quality / quality control.

They also have an issue with confrontation. So it made it very difficult for the Chinese engineers from my company to tell the mill engineers that they were wrong.

When they "get it" - they will really be a force to be deal with.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 21, 2010)

I think a lot of the quality control issues have to do with what the average Chinese person can pay for products. Quality control and higher quality costs money. If the factories produce more expensive, higher quality products there just might not be enough of a market for them. A good analogy is that you don't produce Cadillacs when most people can only afford bicycles. This includes not only items made for domestic use, but also imports. Big box stores are in a race to the bottom to get items from China as cheaply as possible. For the prices they tell the factories they will pay, it just isn't possible to produce quality products, even with cheap labor.

What really bothers me though is often you'll have a product which is mostly serviceable except for one glaring oversight. For example, a few years ago I bought a bicycle pump. It was reasonably well made given the price _except_ for some unfathomable reason the part which connected to the tire valve was made of plastic. No surprise that it broke the second time I used it.  I figured this might be the case when I bought it, but all the pumps, even the more expensive electric ones, had the same type of connector. I had no choice in the matter. Fortunately I had a metal connector from an old pump which I managed to put on, and all was well. But the point is I see a lot of stuff like that from China. I bought 9-LED flashlights which are basically decently made given that they cost $1.50. However the electric contact between the board with the LEDs and aluminum flashlight body is flaky. In both cases ( and many others ), these issues could easily be fixed for a quarter. I would certainly be willing to pay a quarter more for a much better product. Same issues with their LEDs. The fade issues could probably be cured with changes that amount to a few cents per LED. Most end users wouldn't balk at paying that much more if they knew the LEDs would last. I'm convinced the factories are either totally clueless when it comes to determining where they can cut costs without compromising quality, OR they purposely design in defects so they can sell larger numbers of products. If it's the latter strategy, then it's already backfired given the feedback I've heard here and elsewhere. Inexpensive is good, low quality isn't. The Chinese can produce quality products on par with anybody else. They mostly don't seem to want to.


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## fisk-king (Mar 21, 2010)

some of you have probably already read this but I stumbled upon this last nite for the first time.

http://weblog.muyshondt.net/ . Its the first entry on the page. A pretty good read from one of our *own* makers here.


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## bobjane (Mar 21, 2010)

Ah so much stereotyping and ignorance in this thread.

You can get 1st class quality control in China, if you pay for it, just like every other place of manufacture.

Now typically companies (usually foreign, American?) approaches a Chinese manufacturer and says - make/sell us the cheapest piece of crap you possibly can so we make maximum profits!

Then ignorant consumers like you blame China and sterotype its people for your flashlight breaking rather than looking towards the company that ordered the product and specified its level of QC or lack thereof.


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## Empath (Mar 21, 2010)

The thread has been moved to the Budget Flashlights forum, since it seems more topical there. It's an alternative to closing it; but it still stands a good chance of closure.

Use proper self-control and consideration toward one another, and it might last.


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## derangboy (Mar 21, 2010)

There is no simple answer to the question.
My mother would tell you it was the Cultural Revolution. Others have correctly pointed out they produce what we ask for. And in some cases, it is the learning curve. Having been to China last November, I can confidently say there are quality products being made there by true craftsmen. However, none of them seem to be making $20 flashlights :laughing:


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## Larbo (Mar 21, 2010)

The torches I have seen are rather impressive I think, Iam amazed they can actually make something that looks nice and "works" given the horrible record of production they have, (pet food, baby food, toys ect.)


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## gswitter (Mar 21, 2010)

But you're basing their "record" on a couple of high-profile negative incidents.


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## jk037 (Mar 21, 2010)

As I understand it, all manufactured goods are a compromise between performance/features, quality, and cost.

In order to produce a high-performing product for as little cost as possible, quality control is sacrificed, as are other elements such as after-sales support. Whereas when the cost constraint is relaxed, the company can employ proper quality control systems and produce a more reliable product.

For example, Chinese companies such as Quark, Fenix and Nitecore produce high-performance, very high-quality lights but at a necessarily higher cost than something like an Ultrafire. These cheaper brands produce lights that often boast a similar level of performance to the "quality" brands, but are more likely to be defective. Romisen are a little unusual in that they place less emphasis than most competitors upon ultimate performance and feature count in order to produce decent-quality lights whilst keeping prices very low.

The following statement sums it up rather neatly:


bobjane said:


> You can get 1st class quality control in China, if you pay for it, just like every other place of manufacture.


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## gcbryan (Mar 21, 2010)

Thanks for the well thought out responses. I did a little more reading on this subject and it bore out a lot of what most of you here are saying.

Some of the companies placing orders to have product manufactured in China have negotiated such a tight margin that the Chinese manufacturer has very little profit margin. In those cases...no surprise...QC is an issue.

On a related topic...perhaps someone here has another answer for me...

Who exactly is behind the cheaper flashlights whether it is those sold on DX or any similar place. Most of the talk has been about US companies placing orders to have manufacturing done in China.

Yet most of the lower priced lights never make it to the US directly. We only see them coming from one of the HK outlets.

Do all those originate strictly from the factories themselves rather than as orders placed by an outside company?

There seems to be one company that has designed and manufactured a dive light on their own yet it has an attack bezel and sharp edges on an external heat fin (both things would not be needed or desirable on a dive light).

No one else seems to be the originator of this light and yet no improvements seem to be coming forth either. I can't quite figure out how such a product originates in the first place.

The same could be said for many of the HK sold lights in that they, to one degree or another, are all alike. A lot of choice but very differences.

Do some of the factories that produce low end flashlights for other also design in house for their own account?


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## Ska-T (Mar 21, 2010)

*Post removed. Political discussion does not belong here - please take it to the Underground. - DM51*


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## derangboy (Mar 21, 2010)

gcbryan said:


> I can't quite figure out how such a product originates in the first place.



I used to go to bicycle trade shows which were attended by many Asian manufacturers. Their product catalogues were thick as phone books filled with ie. every possible frame configuration you could imagine. Good ideas, copies of good ideas and downright ridiculous. I think they employ people who's sole job is to scour related magazines and websites for anything they might be able to copy, often merging ideas late at night under the influence of alcohol!  Maybe someone watched _Jaws_ or _Austin Powers_ just a few too many times. Then a dive light with a strike bezel and laser beam doesn't seem so out of place.


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## Hobbs (Mar 21, 2010)

It's not if it's made in China, but who and how the factory is run. OPPO Blu-ray disk players are made in China and they are top rated. My old Oldsmobile diesel was not made in China, and it was a POS!:sick2:
(I really need to let the Oldsmobile thing go.)


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## carrot (Mar 21, 2010)

One thing we commonly forget is how many of our electronics are made in China. Talk all you want about knives, flashlights, etc, but find me a game system, a phone, or a laptop made in the USA. Amongst the latter three, you will find some of the highest quality pieces, and all are made in China. Proof in the pudding that, if something in China is specified to be high quality, it can be, although it may take some foreign (such as American) oversight.

The real issue is not that USA is awesome and that China is junk. The issue is with whomever is at the helm, and whether or not they demand quality. 

There's only a lot of junk coming out of China, because a lot of people are asking for cheap junk from China. When people ask for good stuff to be made in China, it certainly can, and does happen.


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## VidPro (Mar 22, 2010)

because it is really hard to return  
all something has to be is sold, as long as it it still SOLD, it will be made that way, here there or anywhere.
as long as the money is rolling in, nobody gives a crud. even if some of this stuff is complete garbage, costs more to return it, and at the $1 total profit made nobody Cares that it wasnt good either, so who cares? nobody.
$3 light doesnt work, whatcha gonna do about it? nothing. so it will be sold and even if completly defective nobody cares or even knows.
next week they will blindly pump out another 3,000 of them , and at that price somebody will end up with it again.
bean counters say, it worked, even if it doesnt work.


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## KuKu427 (Mar 22, 2010)

From my experience, it's not a matter of where it's made. It's a matter of who is at the helm. A lot of Chinese manufacturers and businessmen have a "cut costs at the expense of quality" mentality. :thumbsdow I guess they see price as their only competitive advantage.

But then again, you do get what you pay for and at least no one is trying to sell a $3 POS for $60.


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## gcbryan (Mar 22, 2010)

I'd like if is there was a Fenix version of a Chinese dive light. The only dive lights just show up. No company behind them that you can ask questions of and no company that is committed to coming out with new improved models.

It's frustrating when you get a "close but no cigar" product at a good price Just change a few things that no diver would want on a dive light and it's an excellent product.

Such is life


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## Nautic (Mar 22, 2010)

bobjane said:


> Ah so much stereotyping and ignorance in this thread.
> 
> You can get 1st class quality control in China, if you pay for it, just like every other place of manufacture.
> 
> ...



:goodjob:


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## amigafan2003 (Mar 22, 2010)

Every single one of my lights in my sig is Chinese and not one of them has any QC issues.

There are bad Chinese lights out there though, just the same as there are bad US or UK products.


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## march.brown (Mar 22, 2010)

All but one of my lights are Chinese and there have been no problems at all.

That's not really true as a $2 one went faulty a couple of years ago and they sent me a new one from Hong Kong at no charge.

The exception (non-Chinese) is a Maglite 3AA LED which was replaced as it had an intermittant fault after a few months of use ... It took many weeks before I eventually got the replacement ... The body colour was wrong , but at least it works now.

The Mag is my most expensive light too.

So I have no problems with my Solarforces , Romisen , Saiko , Trustfire , iTP , ZhongSheng plus the even cheaper nameless ones ... Same too with my assorted chargers , Ultrafire 18650s and other assorted Chinese (or Far Eastern) products.

I can see no problem in buying these ... They are good enough for my needs.
.


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## gcbryan (Mar 22, 2010)

I have no problem buying them either. That wasn't my point when I started this thread.

I just wanted to learn a little more about QC as it relates to some of the Chinese products (lights).

I think the best post (explanation) was that when importers negotiate too tight a deal that there is little profit margin left for the Chinese manufacturer and that is when QC is more likely to go out the window.

The companies that import Chinese products and are more concerned about the quality have to leave enough money in the budget for QC. Sometimes that's done and sometimes it isn't.

I have experienced more issues than many are posting about here though. 

I ordered 3 Rominsen lights. Two worked and one had a faulty switch.

I ordered a Chinese designed and produced dive light and it flooded on the fourth dive. The batteries that came with it had issues on the first dive.

The Akoray K-109 5 mode is advertised as 220 lumens using CR123 but is only 100 lumens unless used with RCR123's. It's supposed to be constant current regulated (I think) but it can't be if input voltage matters.

My experience is nothing new. Reading reviews it's par for the course. Given the price and the past history it's expected so no problem.

I was just thinking things through and logically lower wages didn't have to mean no QC as those wages would be lower too. But it's all about the profit margin left for QC.


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## VidPro (Mar 22, 2010)

D I Y
why do you think they also sell all them parts 
if you get a usable base item from a cheap light thing, you can always do all the rest yourself.
real dive lights are very expencive, i can imagine, and i was looking at $$$ lights and camera boxes for dive, and even the 4 figure $$$ things dont guarentee that a bit of water wont show up. :-(
the ones that look like they would keep my $$$$ cameras dry look like bath-o-spheres (bathysphere) for deep diving or is that bathyscaphs.

I really think that when you buy cheap, you gotta look into the work your going to need to do, to get it all working right and proper, especially if it is cheap because its Rejects.
time , money , money time, if you got the time dont spend the money and Feex it all, put in better tested drivers, switches, re-heat sync it, fix up the threads, check replace the o-rings, lube, resolder the connections, flux cleanup, replace the wires, fix the springs. some of the stuff i got, no ammount of "QC" during the manufacturing process would have a perfect light comming out of the other end, but some aspect of it might be usable in your DIY. 
if i add up all the cheapness put into every aspect of it, and then replace all the cheap and take the time to have done it right all across the board, i would guess the real price of it here or there would be what you have to pay for a Good but inexpencive one. 
come to think of it , after all the repair kit stuff and replacement parts, if the time was hugely valuable cheap Isnt cheap at all, but its still a learning experience 

if you get enough problems from cheap junk, and your not into re-doing the whole thing, then there is one solution, Quit buying Cheap junk.

some "bought in china" dealer a REVIEW wont do you any good either, because what one person got, isnt what they could get that day and send to you, so many times even a full review wont do each buyer a lot of good, because the item isnt the same one.


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## LeifUK (Mar 22, 2010)

As others have said, most of the gadgets we buy are now made in China, including iPods and kitchen scales, and they are good quality. It's all about branding, and quality control. Apple are protective of their good name, and would stop buying from a supplier if the QC dropped below par. So quality is built in, along all steps in the production process. But Chinese companies have found they can sell direct from places like DX, and people buy, even without the high QC standards. So why increase quality? The truth is that it probably does not cost much to increase QC standards, so an ITP A2 bought direct from China costs not much more than a similar crummy DX light. But buy an ISP A2 in Europe, and you'll pay costs associated with local dealers i.e. support and overheads. From experience I would rather pay more for QC, and know that I have a good product.


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