# Quality issues with UltraFire 18650



## SilverFox (Sep 2, 2007)

AK645 sent me 2 UltraFire 18650 2400 mAh cells to test. These are protected cells.

I opened the package and checked the voltage of the cells. Both were below 0.1 volts. I wondered if the protection circuit had kicked in, but that would mean that the cells had self discharged. How old are these 2400 mAh cells anyway? Perhaps AK645 can answer that question.

I put the cells in my Pila IBC charger to charge them up. The Pila IBC refused to recognize them or charge them. At this point I contacted AK645 and told him that he should send them back for a refund. At the same time I tried to recover the cells by charging them at 0.1 amps. The voltage gradually rose to the point where the Pila charger would recognize them and charge them.

The cells warmed up on the Pila charger, so I moved it outside as a safety precaution. After a couple of hours I pulled the cells and decided to discharge them. The cells would not sustain over 0.1 amps. When I exceeded that current, they immediately shut down.

I told AK645 that the next step would be to remove the protection circuit and check out the bare cells. He told me that he was not planning on sending them back for a refund, so I should proceed.

I removed the protection circuit and did a 2 amp discharge. The initial cell voltage was 4.0 volts, so I did not expect full capacity. During the discharge the cells heated up to 130 F and were continuing to heat up at the end of the test, and the discharged capacity came in at around 1150 mAh.

Since I started with cells at roughly 80% of full capacity, I was expecting more from these cells. 80% of 2400 mAh is 1920 mAh. My 1150 mAh works out to around 60% of the capacity.

Not only did the protection circuits go bad, but the cells also went bad.

I see UltraFire cells mentioned from time to time. Is this an isolated incident? Have others had "issues" with these cells?

Tom


----------



## WildChild (Sep 2, 2007)

No issue with the 2 I bought... They were 3.85V when I received them. They now have 1 cycle each and they never heated during discharge and charge (With the UltraFire WF-139 charger). I carefully monitor them during charging as I wasn't really sure of their quality. I think someone else mentionned that 1 out of the 2 he received was DoA like this. I use them in a Wolf-Eyes light that pulls around 950 mA on them. And... I probably won't buy those anymore if there are too many issues like this. Maybe the protection circuit failed and discharged completely the cells, killing them? Are the batteries you tested those with the gray shrink wrap and button top?


----------



## WildChild (Sep 2, 2007)

If mines were right when I received them, should I trust them?


----------



## LEDcandle (Sep 2, 2007)

I haven't done any runtime tests with the Ultrafires (to at least get a rough gauge of their capacity) but I did receive 1 dud 17670 that was 0.1v, but DX was very nice to send me another batt in my next order without having to return the old one. 

I removed the protection circuit (even accidentally burnt my thumb when the protective strip touched positive and negative, causing a short) and the bare cell registered at 3.8v and seemed ok. I charged it up to 4.18v and it can be used. 

Not sure how much capacity all my Ultrafire cells have though. I don't have any battery testers but a light runtime test should have a rough gauge.


----------



## matrixshaman (Sep 2, 2007)

I've got a protected blue label UF 18650 in a high power signle cell Cree light that draws about 1.5 amp on high and never any problem with it. No noticeable self discharge. That's the only UF 18650 I have.


----------



## ak645 (Sep 2, 2007)

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the write-up.Both cells were purchased and shipped directly from LightHound to SilverFox.So no idea how long they were sitting around.

I had asked Tom to take a look at these because I was having some wonky results with mine.I did not tell Tom about any of my issues so his judgement would not be biased.

Like Tom my cells would not charge on the IBC charger.I pulled out my DSD and that worked.Took almost 10 hours to do a complete charge.Unfortunately I did not think to test voltage before charging.DOH! Thereafter they worked in the IBC.I have read one other post about recieving his UltraFire cells in a low charge condition.

I am using mine with a ROP/LO bulb which draws about 2 amps at 7.2volts.After the initial charge on the DSD and subsequent charge on the IBC the beam was weak and yellow.After the third and fourth charge it became much whiter and brighter.  After the sixth charge the protection circuit on one of the cells tripped after one minute of run time.I revived it on the DSD and both cells have been working well ever since.

I bought the UltraFires to replace some AW cells that shorted out after one of those stupid little magnets shifted inside the light.I was really hoping for some good results with these as they were the only button top protected 18650s I could find.Oh Well. 

I am no expert but I think these cells may have been permanently degraded by sitting around too long in a state of excessive discharge.

Andy


----------



## WildChild (Sep 2, 2007)

I just saw that AW now has button top 18650 cells! Since friday I think... Next time I have to buy 18650, they will be from him. But it may take a long time if the UF ones don't die quickly, since they were good when I received them. By the way, I got mines from DX.


----------



## ak645 (Sep 2, 2007)

WOOHOO about freakin time.Thanks for the heads-up,WildChild! I'll finally get to run my ROP/HO lamp.

Andy



WildChild said:


> I just saw that AW now has button top 18650 cells! Since friday I think... Next time I have to buy 18650, they will be from him. But it may take a long time if the UF ones don't die quickly, since they were good when I received them. By the way, I got mines from DX.


----------



## Windscale (Sep 2, 2007)

All my 18650s are UF. So far I had one dud cell. It was easy to tell as the light started green in the UF139 charger. Even with fully charged cells, the light will start red and then turn green. That was a blue one which I returned and exchanged. I have 4 silver ones (the latest) and they all seem to work properly but their diameter is a wee bit bigger. Still fitted my 18650 lights fortunately.


----------



## ak645 (Sep 2, 2007)

SilverFox;2137480I removed the protection circuit and did a 2 amp discharge. The initial cell voltage was 4.0 volts said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Does this mean the PTC circuit is missing/nonfunctional?
> 
> Andy


----------



## ak645 (Sep 3, 2007)

I attempted an informal capacity test on my two UltraFire batteries using my ROP/LO bulb which draws 1.9 amps.

At 58 minutes the light went out.Checked with my Fluke meter.One cell was at 3.47 volts the others protection circuitry had tripped.I revived the dead one on the DSD and voltage measured 3.49.Put them both back in the light and within one minute tripped again.

So capacity is somewhere north of 1900mah I know not where.Probably nowhere near the claimed 2400mah though.And the IC on one of these cells is defective.

Andy


----------



## scott.cr (Sep 4, 2007)

I recently received four of the protected Ultrafire 18650s from DX and at least one was bad. I also removed the protection circuit as an experimental measure and the cells had limited usefullness. They've since found their way to my local household hazardous waste collection site.


----------



## SilverFox (Sep 4, 2007)

Hello Andy,

The PTC is set for higher temperatures.

Healthy cells can withstand a 1C discharge without heating up. My alarm came because I was at less than 1C and the temperature was getting up to the point where degrading damage is done to Li-Ion chemistry.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox (Sep 23, 2007)

Update:

I received another cell and this one worked. So, out of 3 cells, two had the protection circuit fail and one worked.

I removed the protection circuits from the two bad cells and decided to run a comparison of the 3 cells at a 1 amp draw. The problem is that all three cells came in at different capacities. I will post a graph of this later.

At any rate, the one cell that worked came in well under the labeled 2400 mAh, but it performed quite well. I ran it up to 5 amps before the protection circuit kicked in. A repeat run at 1 amp revealed no change in capacity over the first run at 1 amp.

I still don't know if this is an isolated occurrence or if this is the norm for these cells. Based on the little testing that I have done, I would not recommend these cells in a multi cell application, but they should do well for single cell use. 

However, I stop using Li-Ion cells when they drop below 80% of their initial capacity. If these cells were originally 2400 mAh, I would stop using them when their capacity under a 1 amp draw dropped below around 1900 mAh. None of these cells tested out at above 1900 mAh. The one cell that worked came in at just under 1700 mAh or about 71%.

Perhaps they are really 1800 mAh cells with the wrong label on them...

Tom


----------



## WildChild (Sep 23, 2007)

Tom I didn't expect a much better capacity with the 2 I have. But since they don't heat when I charge them and they seems to work well, I'll keep them. Also, there is a variation with the length of the 2 cells I have. Is there a good variation with the ones you have?


----------



## SilverFox (Sep 23, 2007)

Here is the comparison data from the 3 cells. Bad 1 and Bad 2 were cells that had bad protection circuits. The protection circuits were removed for this comparison. Good refers to the cell with the good protection circuit. The test load was 1 amp for all three cells. 







These cells are labeled 2400 mAh.

Tom


----------



## ak645 (Sep 24, 2007)

Hi Tom,

Heh,I was wondering what happened to that other cell.They must've sent it to you by mistake.This one was from a different batch which may explain the different performance.

At first my results were similar to yours with reduced capacity and severe voltage sag under load.Then things seemed to improve.During my in-light testing,after several charge/discharge cycles,I saw better results..I ran 2 amp ROP/LO bulb for 58 minutes from 4.2 to 3.5 volts.

I wonder if you'd mind running the good battery through a few charge/discharge cycles to see if there's any improvement in it?

Andy


----------



## SilverFox (Sep 24, 2007)

Hello Andy,

Here is the test results from the cell with the good protection circuit.






When the testing was completed, I ran another 1 amp discharge to see if there was any degradation (or improvement) in the cell. There was none.

Tom


----------



## WildChild (Nov 11, 2007)

A question about those. After about 4-5 cycles, mines started to drop to around 4.05V-4.06V on the shelf the day after they have been charged. When went out of the charger at around 4.17V-4.18V. Normal behaviour or a sign they are starting to die?


----------



## DM51 (Nov 11, 2007)

They are on their way out. When they can't hold 4.0V (~80% charge) they have had it. You may find they are heating up a bit on the charger, due to increased internal resistance; but one way or another, it doesn't look as if they are going to last you much longer. 

5 cycles. What a great record. I'm sorry to say it, but you wasted your money there. Where did you get them?


----------



## WildChild (Nov 11, 2007)

DM51 said:


> They are on their way out. When they can't hold 4.0V (~80% charge) they have had it. You may find they are heating up a bit on the charger, due to increased internal resistance; but one way or another, it doesn't look as if they are going to last you much longer.
> 
> 5 cycles. What a great record. I'm sorry to say it, but you wasted your money there. Where did you get them?



I knew they could be crap when I bought those UltraFire... I got them from DX. They have never been overcharged nor overdischarged. They don't heat at all when charging. I'll wait until they lose a little more capacity and I'll buy a few AW cells.


----------



## DM51 (Nov 11, 2007)

WildChild said:


> I knew they could be crap when I bought those UltraFire... I got them from DX. They have never been overcharged nor overdischarged. They don't heat at all when charging. I'll wait until they lose a little more capacity and I'll buy a few AW cells.


Yes, AW is your man. 

Now, how about we both go back to that other thread to try and persuade that guy not to buy cells via eBay?


----------



## WildChild (Nov 11, 2007)

DM51 said:


> Yes, AW is your man.
> 
> Now, how about we both go back to that other thread to try and persuade that guy not to buy cells via eBay?



It's not the same thing... The Ultrafire were known to be bad... On eBay it's different and if he gets crap, he can be refunded fast... And out of 15 orders I made on batteries, I never got any counterfeit.


----------



## coppertrail (Nov 11, 2007)

I just discovered some problems with 2 of the 4 ultrafire cells I purchased back in May. I've only charged them once and they've not even been put through a full discharge. 

My MRV stopped working so I took a UF 18650 from another light and it works fine. Pulled my spare 18650 from the fridge and it too doesn't work in any of my lights, even after being charged for 2 hours. I'm going to request 2 replacement cells from DX.


----------



## WildChild (Nov 11, 2007)

coppertrail said:


> I'm going to request 2 replacement cells from DX.



I should also do that...


----------



## NoFair (Nov 12, 2007)

I've had about 20% of my Ultrafire cells been duds. These are 14500 and 16340s. My 18650s are Panasonic and Sanyo.

The Ultrafires have been dead out of the box or not taken charge after the first use. The others have performed well and hold their charge well..
Runtimes seem decent, but I don't think they have the stated capacity. They claim more or as much as the quality brands:ironic:

Mine are all unprotected. Don't think I'd trust these protection circuits anyway

Sverre


----------



## WildChild (Nov 30, 2007)

I received today 2 UltraFire 18650 from DX in replacement for the 2 others I bought back in july from them that were showing signs of age. When I received them, I read 3.84V with my DMM. Those 2 old are working correctly, they charges up to around 4.18V every times, I never overdischarged them and they never heated while discharging nor while charging. Maybe I was just lucky with them. 

I don't have the time to test the newer yet but they are different. They are a bit longer, there are a few physical differences, shrink wrap is of a different shade of gray and the text on them is also different. They read 3.90V and 3.91V. I'll post pictures next week to show the differences and I'll also make a "naked eye" runtime test with both type. By "naked eye", I mean that I'll make a runtime test until I see a drop in output when the circuit of my Wolf-Eyes Defender II gets out of regulation. I don't have a lightmeter so I cannot do better than that. I'll let you know! 

When the old ones are charged, they hit around 4.18V and they drop within around 30 minutes to around 4.10V. I have one that has been charged about 3 weeks ago and it now gives 4.03V. Is it a normal drop? Does the protection circuit draw current?

Thanks


----------



## Tubor (Nov 30, 2007)

I bought a UF charger and 3 x UF Protected 14500's and 4 x UF unprotected 10440's from ebay (ultrafire-store). The Protected ones were not protected at all (wrong type - I'm still trying to get my money back and they won't answer any of my emails) and out of the three, only one was in a usable state - 3.5V - so I re-charged it and it works. I would say it's near the 80% capacity threshold though, if not past it.

The 10440's work OK but will bottom out (voltage drops very low, very quickly) if used in a demanding way (Liteflux LF2 on maximum for example) so I'm loath to use them.

Bought some replacements from AW and the batteries are SO much better, physically, sustained voltage, much longer runtimes, it's been a BIG relief buying from him. 10/10


----------



## WildChild (Dec 3, 2007)

Here are the pictures of the old and new Ultrafire 18650:

Old on left, new on right:





New on top, old on bottom. There is a 2nd ring we can see on the shrink wrap, on the bottom of the crimping on the new that the old doesn't have:




Old on left, new on right:




New on top, old on bottom:




New on top, old on bottom:




New on left, old on right. We can see that the newer is slightly taller:





I charged tonight an old one. It came out of the charger at 4.20V then dropped to 4.15V within 30 minutes. The two new ones are at 4.20V one day after charging. I'll probably make a runtime test with a Wolf-Eyes Defender II next week-end.

SilverFox, what kind did you test?


----------



## mdocod (Dec 3, 2007)

The fact that almost everyone is reporting voltage loss after the charge with relatively new cells says a lot. I think this by itself is a good reason to avoid them all-together.


----------



## VidPro (Dec 3, 2007)

WildChild said:


> When the old ones are charged, they hit around 4.18V and they drop within around 30 minutes to around 4.10V. I have one that has been charged about 3 weeks ago and it now gives 4.03V. Is it a normal drop? Does the protection circuit draw current?
> 
> Thanks


 
the quick drop off the charger (4.18-4.10) doesnt prove much, SAY the charger was charging at a good rate, then pulled , the battery was not nessiarily AT the 4.18v rested , but only high when the charge was recentally applied.

If the charge was the type that completly flattens out the current at the end of charge, and the charge and the battery have ~0 differential, then a drop like that would be noticably bad.

its hard to explain, but if you used a constant voltage , and waited till there was almost 0 current flow (concidered trickle topping) then a drop in 1/2 hour like that would be abnormal. the fully topped cell would be definatly at 4.18v , not just recentally had power applied to it, like what usually occurs. It is important to note differences in how its charged, because this could cause differences in the data people are referring to, vrses the cell actually taking a dive like that.

So it rested after charge, and went down to the actual rested voltage it was charged to ~4.10v , if you knew the Current rate that was occuring when it was at 4.18v , you could determine how much of that was just "hot off the charger" voltage.

so then if we assume it was charged to a rested ~4.10v, 3 weeks to the 4.0 would be the self discharge rate. of course the discharge rate would include any power that the protection curcuit used too.

one way I (here) will test UNprotected, is let them come down to Rested voltages off the charger , like your 30-60 minutes. then right after that you can assume that its charged TO that point rested. from there the self discharge itself can be determined, any influence from recent charging doesnt change your results. 
So i charge it, test it rested, then test it in a few hours or a day, if the voltage is sinking fast, then the battery is not good. some will sink so fast , you can watch it drop on the meter, those are Really bad 

an *un*protected good cell can read so minor a deviation from its RESTED charged voltage as to be off by .01-.03v after 3 weeks. a bad one more like .1-.3 in the same 3 weeks Unprotected, protection can add to the discharge, i dont know how much, or whos protection adds how much.

that is a long way of saying your 4.18 was not nessisarily a rested voltage, because it would be a lot if it was.

Your pictures are cool , shows 2 different batteries, cause the vent holes are different. (if they are both bottom protection, which it looks like)


----------



## DM51 (Dec 4, 2007)

VidPro said:


> so then if we assume it was charged to a rested ~4.10v, 3 weeks to the 4.0 would be the self discharge rate. of course the discharge rate would include any power that the protection curcuit used too.


I agree that if the charger did not complete the CV phase, the voltage might drop to ~4.1V or some figure like that. This drop should occur within 30 mins, and then settle. 

However there should not then be as serious a drop as a further 0.1V, to 4.0V, within as little as 3 weeks. I would regard that as an abnormally high self-discharge rate, something in the order of 10x what should normally be expected.


----------



## VidPro (Dec 4, 2007)

yes must be around 10% a month, i dont have the handy dandy chart thing, so i used this http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/en/an/AN121.pdf
If say it was at ~1100, then it would be at ~1000 from the .1V drop.
with li-ion you can get a fair idea of the capacity from its rested voltages.

but that is so bad, i doubt my math, not that i wouldnt doubt my math anyway


----------



## DM51 (Dec 4, 2007)

Lol, your math seems OK to me. I think the point is, the drop from 4.2V to 4.1V is reasonable if the CV phase of the charge wasn't completed, but the further 10% drop to 4.0V is NOT reasonable, and indicates a really lousy-quality cell. 10% SD per month is unacceptable. 10% per YEAR would be more in line with what might be expected.


----------



## WildChild (Dec 4, 2007)

Runtime completed with one old cell: ~57 minutes, 3.3V open voltage right after, before I noticed a drop in output and a drop in flashlight temperature (it was cooler than in the middle of the test...). The cell was charged yesterday.

[edit]After around 20 minutes, the cell came back to 3.73V.[/edit]

This is much less than the runtime shown there:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/168873

I'm doing right now the runtime test with a new UltraFire cell. This one was charged 2 days ago. Reading 4.19V open voltage. I did not measure the open voltage of the old cell before doing the runtime test.


----------



## WildChild (Dec 4, 2007)

Runtime on the newer cell:

Still running and bright. At 2h01, I made a quick pause and measured 3.66V.
[edit]2h18, 3.60V, still running and bright.[/edit]
[edit]2h30, 3.44V. I stopped the test! The one I used for the 56 minutes runtime test just finished charging. It came out of the charger at 4.15V.[/edit]
[last edit]After 20 minutes, the newer one recovered to 3.6V. The old one that has just been charged dropped to 4.12V.[/last edit]


I charged the old one that was in use. It was at 3.91V. Charged to 4.16V then dropped fast to 4.05V. Older ones are definitly crap! I don't know how many cycles the newer one will last... But yet, they are much better!


----------



## WildChild (Dec 4, 2007)

By the way, I use the UltraFire WF-139 Rapid Charger. This is the one AW also sells.


----------



## SilverFox (Dec 7, 2007)

Hello Gabriel,

Looking at the pictures, I believe my test results were with the old cells.

Tom


----------



## Tidra (Dec 8, 2007)

Hmmmmmm,...

I should read this first and then order Ultrafire Charger with 2x18650 from Ebay of course.

There is something else I quite don't understand. Protections for this cells is set to low 2.75V and high 4.2V.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ultrafire-Charger-Rechargeable-18650-Protected-Battery_W0QQitemZ220178820036QQihZ012QQcategoryZ50603QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Isn't this low a little to low???

What is the reasonable low discharge voltage limit for this kind of cell?

Thank you
Iztok


----------



## SilverFox (Dec 8, 2007)

Hello Iztok,

Under a 2 amp load, 2.75 volts for a low voltage cut off is acceptable. 3.0 volts is better. The idea of the cell protection circuit is to shut down the cell before too much damage has been done to the cell. The circuit that you use the cell in should be responsible for the circuit shut down. If the circuit shut down fails, the cell shut down is a back up safety.

In actual practice, you should recharge often and never have the "opportunity" to bump into the low voltage shut off.

Tom


----------



## Tidra (Dec 9, 2007)

Tom

Thank you for your explanation.

I am building myself a bike light with 4xSSC P4, MaxFlex and of course some 7.4V Li-Ion input voltage and 700mA on LED's, that requires on input:
low @ 6V - around 2.1A
nominal @ 7.4V - around 1.5A
max @ 8.4V - around 1.3A

MaxFlex have an option to set low Vin warnings, so I think that 6.5V for low would be O.K.

Iztok


----------



## bspofford (Feb 4, 2008)

I am sorry to say that I bought a lot of the UltraFire 18650, 17670 and 16340 cells assuming that they would be OK. About 20% of mine go bad after only a few charges (PCB infant mortality?) My voltmeter measures 0.1 or 0 V, and they can't be charged. One read 0 V but would intermittently jump to 4.17 V and light up my LED flashlight. I wonder if it is only a matter of selection. Maybe the other 80% of the UltraFire Li-ion cells will work fine for 500 cycles, and it may be cost-effective to accept a 20% failure rate. I have never had this problem with AW batteries. One reviewer on DX reported that TrustFire Li-ions were much better. Do other members agree? Maybe AW > Trustfire > Ultrafire.


----------



## mdocod (Feb 4, 2008)

I lump all the "fire" brand cells into one big burning pile of you know what.... I wouldn't waste any effort trying to determine which crumby cell is less crumby than the other crumby cells, lol. 

For protected Li-Ion cells, Pila, Wolf-Eyes, and AW are the ones to use.
For unprotected Li-Ion cells, Panisonic, LG, Sony, Molicel, there's probably other good ones I can't think of ATM.


----------



## Patriot (Feb 4, 2008)

I was so disgusted with the silver shrink wrapped 18650 Ultrafire batteries that I chucked them. No voltage in one and the other was deformed enough that the shrink wrap was slipping of the shoulder of the battery. I've still got 4 Ultra-fire RCR123s that are nearly 3mm longer than any primary cell, preventing me from using them in two cell lights and a few one cells also. I'm not sure what the difference is between the older blue shrink wrapped cells is but I haven't had any problems with the blue 10440s or 14500s. I'm pretty much done with Ultrafire cells now :green: unless I just can't aquire AW or LG cells for some reason.


----------



## WildChild (Feb 13, 2008)

I now had one of the 2 firsts die. After sitting a few weeks charged on the shelf, I checked it and it read 3.40V. The voltage was dropping just checking it with my DMM. I put my DMM in the battery check mode (pulls 100 mA) and voltage dropped to 0V. I retired the 2 bad ones... I'll now use the 2 different replacement cells DX sent me and I'll see if they are better.


----------



## Tidra (Feb 14, 2008)

I own 4 of Ultrafire 18650/2400 which I buy on Ebay, the seller was really fair and quick.

The first 1-3 charges I was really disappointed, because the running time was really low, but after that, the cells somehow get better and better by each charge, so now I am getting a runtime of 2 hours when I drive 3x SSC P4 with MaxFlex @1A output.

I build a pack of 2p2s to get 7.4V/4800mAh and I know that the runtime should be a little bigger, but for now I am satisfied, but will probably buy AW's next time.

I just hope, that this isn't a good before die syndrome,...

Iztok


----------



## EngrPaul (Jan 27, 2009)

WildChild said:


> New on top, old on bottom:


 
Considering I'm old, that's good with me!


----------



## Black Rose (Jan 27, 2009)

EngrPaul said:


> Considering I'm old, that's good with me!


I don't recall seeing that particular battery on DX 

Then again, my wife wouldn't let me get one of those batteries anyway


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 27, 2009)

Hello EngrPaul,

Is that the look of the battery of the future...? :nana:

Tom


----------



## BigBird_57 (Jul 4, 2012)

+1
I have purchased six Ultrafire 18650's @ 3100 mah and three of them have failed to accept a charge. My vendor replaced two of these. My third failure happened last week after about a year in service. I am replacing these with the Orbtronic brand.


----------

