# P60 Xenon lamp module, spare bulbs?



## Katherine Alicia (Jan 2, 2021)

I`ll start by saying I know very little to nothing about the whole P60 host modern Incan torches, but I think I get the basic principal in that you buy a decent host with the correct battery holder length to suit the module voltage you want to run in it.

I want to run Incan Xenon bulbs in mine, most likely 3.7v for an 18650.

I`v already bought a suitable module for the host, now I can see that the module comes with a reflector and some sort spring thing on the other end so I won`t need another one of those, but where can I buy the bulbs for it in case the one in this module ever pops? I`v looked everywhere and can`t seem to find spare bulbs or even how to change them?
it`s almost like this information is being hidden!? 

anyone?


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## thermal guy (Jan 2, 2021)

She’s all one unit. Bulb, reflector and spring.it’s basically a throw away unit.


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 2, 2021)

but that`s Terrible! :shakehead it such a waste and so bad for the environment not to mention the finances. is there No way they can be changed at all?


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## thermal guy (Jan 2, 2021)

Well I’m sure someone with more skill then me “which wouldn’t be hard to find” could Solder a new LED in them.not sure about a Xenon lamp module. I believe people have done that with 5 mm ones for long run time. But as a whole for 10-12 bucks each it’s probably easier and cost as much just to buy a new one.


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## bykfixer (Jan 2, 2021)

Basically a P60 bulb is a bi-pin with really long legs. Both poke through the base of the module that is also the reflector. The base of the bulb is glued to the base of the module where the legs poke through. 

One pin is bent in a way that it touches the big spring that acts as a ground to the body of the light. The other pin is bent in a way that it touches the smaller spring that acts as the positive and touches the positive point on the battery. 
You can't really see the actual leg in the photos below but if you remove the big spring from the module you'll see them.






The "leg" touching the big spring





The leg touching the little spring. 

The trick is to find a bi-pin bulb that has not had the legs trimmed or solder pins onto one that has been trimmed. Look up "lead wire base miniature" light bulbs.


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## novice (Jan 2, 2021)

Katherine Alicia, It is my impression that the reason (or one of the reasons) that they designed the P60 lamp assembly the way they did was that they were marketed towards the law enforcement and military, so:
a) the unit was pre-focused (chuck the burnt-out lamp assembly, pop in the new one, screw the bezel down, and go..., and b) it was a complete package, and somewhat more durable and time-saving than a bulb whose pins you had to get in the holes, or take time screwing in. That is my understanding, although others will undoubtedlhy have more insight.

You're right, it is "wasteful and unevironmental", but that is the way the Surefire incan system played out, at least for the C/P/Z/G line. Because of the ubiquitousness of the Surefire system, there are a number of makers of P60 type lamp assemblies. None of them are probably as good as Surefire branded bulbs (partly because of their proprietary Xenon-and-Halogen secret gas mix). Alas Surefire no longer makes incans, but there are still others making them, and for much cheaper. I would suggest going to Kaidomain dot com, and typing in the search term "xenon". One of the search results is even optimzed for 3.7 volts. I think shipping is free.


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## jabe1 (Jan 2, 2021)

I’m sure some have tried bulb replacement, but there are a few things which limit the efficiency of this, time being the major one.
First an appropriate bulb needs sourced, then you need to focus it in the reflector. Getting this right could take a few tries. On top of it, all of the work has to happen without fouling the reflector.

Not saying it shouldn’t be attempted, just there may be more to it than you are considering.


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## kamagong (Jan 2, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> but that`s Terrible! :shakehead it such a waste and so bad for the environment not to mention the finances. is there No way they can be changed at all?



These lights were not designed with the hobbyist in mind, tinkering in a workshop at his convenience. When a bulb blew, the priority was for the soldier/police officer to be able to quickly and easily replace it. At the time a complete lamp assembly was the best way to accomplish that task.


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## lightfooted (Jan 2, 2021)

They are not built with the intent to allow separate replacement, much like the 7 inch round sealed beam head lights from the 70's and earlier. You can find them on various bulk purchase sites for around a dollar...give or take. Quality suffers I'm sure but if you are looking for the absolute lowest cost to replace a burned out lamp then that is what you could do.

The modules made by Surefire in the early years were of superb quality and the justification for the fixed bulb was clear. I don't know what happened later on just before the LED modules hit the market...but I do recall seeing one or two complaints about them. Nothing I ever experienced but mainly because I only once had to replace my original lamp and that was several years before LEDs were a thing.

Also: I actually attempted to repair the broken lamp once I obtained a replacement. Which for the record was around $30 if I recall correctly. Marked up some I think as I got it from a LEO supply shop. The biggest hinderance to replacing the bulb was getting the springs to separate without damaging anything. The glue or whatever that holds the bulb in place is also very durable...I would have sworn it was concrete. I ended up making it useless as the force required to remove the dead bulb caused a lot of collateral damage. I don't recommend making the attempt really...it just isn't worth your time. I mean that seriously, as in...would you also attempt to roll your own 18650?

For reference though, the bulb is soldered onto the center spring, or at least mine was. Or was it spot welding? Hmm...not sure now as it's been 20 years or so since then.


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## Lumen83 (Jan 2, 2021)

Well, I might agree that these are a waste if I ended up throwing them away at all. But these babies seem to last forever! The Surefires, and even the chinese knockoffs that I stocked up on are still all alive. The no name brand Chinese lamps get used in my 6P daily. I haven't had one die since I bought them 5 or 6 years ago. And I have Surefire P60s that are much older than that and still running beautifully. I think you are going to enjoy the amount of lamps available to you and how well they perform.


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## novice (Jan 2, 2021)

Katherine Alicia, Fivemega has in the past made limited numbers of custom parts that address some of your concerns. Most unfortunately, these parts have long since sold out, but you might want to consider a "Grail Quest" for one or more of them, starting with a post in the WTB section.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...-FM-D26-Bi-Pin-socket-Reflector-Ready-to-ship

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?219828-G4-D26-SUNLIGHT-for-urefire

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...-Bi-Pin-Socket-For-MN-Lamp-Assembly-(5th-Run)


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## fivemega (Jan 2, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> I want to run Incan Xenon bulbs in mine, most likely 3.7v for an 18650.


http://kaidomain.com/Flashlight-DIY...rce-IH-1-3_7V-Xenon-Gas-Bulb-reflector-Module

*Depending on brightness and run time, you can use:
1- 3.7 volt bulb with single 18650 (1A- P61 bulb with single iMR 18650)
2- 7.4 volt bulb with pair of 18350 (2A- P90 bulb with pair of IMR 18350)
3- 7.4 volt bulb with pair of 18500+35mm ExCap (3A- P90 bulb with pair of 18500) 
4- 7.4 volt bulb with pair of 18650+69mm ExCap (4A- P90 bulb with pair of 18650) *


Katherine Alicia said:


> but that`s Terrible! :shakehead it such a waste and so bad for the environment not to mention the finances.


*That light was mainly designed for military or law enforcement. So cost of batteries or bulb replacement was not an issue. Also as mentioned earlier, no adjustment or focusing needed.*


bykfixer said:


> Basically a P60 bulb is a bi-pin with really long legs.


*In fact they call "wire terminal bulb". Normally they use soft and long nickel wires for easier soldering with maximum reliable connection.
Bi-pin bulb is normally with short and stiff pins so can be inserted in proper socket easily.*


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 3, 2021)

Thanks each! I`v just places an order on kaidomain for 5 of the 3.7v modules so I hope that will last me a while! 
without having actually seen/held one before it`s hard to picture the scale of them, but I`m determined to come up with Some use for these if the bulb ever pops, I`m wondering if perhaps a socket could be made or fitted perhaps, there are some bi-pin type and also some MES types that are small enough, it`ll make an interesting project for me I`m sure 

from reading I gather a P60 is a single cell torch and a p90 is a double? I have a 7.4v bulb module on the way too, I wanted to see if this pair of protected 16340 I bought a while back will work in it so they`ll finally have a home of their own (the didn`t fit my E04 or my OTR M3 Pro).
As well as the Seraph I also bought an el cheapo WF-502B, but I read the switches are a bit naughty sometimes, so these Mc Clicky gizmo things... are they suitable replacements? I`v seen them mentioned so many times here but never really understood much about it other than them being popular.

and am I ok using a flat top protected 18650 in these things?


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## peter yetman (Jan 3, 2021)

P60 are 6V and P90 9V. They were originally in SF 6P (2 x CR123) and SF 9P (3 x CR123).
McClicky switches are like the Holy Grail of clicky xwitches and carry more current than the SF clickies. I bloody hate them, as I've had a few die on me and I've gone all twisty on those lights.
I does just seem to be me that has problems with McClickies.
P


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## bykfixer (Jan 3, 2021)

The seraph switches can be problematic when runing a bunch of amps. But for a fairly stock configuration like you are speaking of they'll do fine.


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## Lumen83 (Jan 3, 2021)

It is less about the number of cells and more about the voltage. Others will chime in with more speciffic info. But, for example you can use 1, 2, or 3 cells depending on the host and lamp module. You just need to remember that the total voltage for the cells should not exceed what the lamp is rated for. The stock 6P runs a p60 on 2 cr123a cells. Thats a 6V lamp with two 3V batteries. If you have a 3.7V lamp, you need to make sure you only have a total of around 3.7V worth of battery such as a 16650 or an 18650 if the host can fit an 18mm cell. Stock 6P tubes generally cannot fit the 18650s but can fit the 16650s. 

So, moral of the story you want to match the size of the batter in diameter and length to the size that the tube can fit, and the voltage of the battery to the lamp. You can go under, for example. A 3.7V battery under a 6V lamp is going to work and give you longer run time but less output than the lamp was designed for. But if you go over the voltage, you will pop the bulb. And if you are using multiple batteries in one tube (The P90 was designed to use 3 3V cr123a's), you need to add up the voltage of each and not exceed what the lamp can handle.


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 3, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> The seraph switches can be problematic when runing a bunch of amps. But for a fairly stock configuration like you are speaking of they'll do fine.




well the bulb modules I bought from Kaidomain are 15W types (the 12W were all gone), so that roughly works out to about 4A, are the stock switches ok with that amount?


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## Buck91 (Jan 3, 2021)

Take a few of your burnt out modules and swap a high cri 5mm led in there. Then run them in a 2aa or 1cr123 host as a pretty effective battery vampire.


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## bykfixer (Jan 3, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> well the bulb modules I bought from Kaidomain are 15W types (the 12W were all gone), so that roughly works out to about 4A, are the stock switches ok with that amount?



See post 21
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?422581-Solarforce-versus-Seraph


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## lightfooted (Jan 3, 2021)

The Seraph should take any 18650...but, you found a protected flat top??? WTF???


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## bigburly912 (Jan 3, 2021)

Buck91 said:


> Take a few of your burnt out modules and swap a high cri 5mm led in there. Then run them in a 2aa or 1cr123 host as a pretty effective battery vampire.



This. You are already well versed in making little vampires. Why not vampire some p60 modules?


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 3, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> See post 21
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?422581-Solarforce-versus-Seraph




aww maaan! that kinda sux  
So I need to get a "twisty" then (whatever tha is LOL)?


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 3, 2021)

lightfooted said:


> The Seraph should take any 18650...but, you found a protected flat top??? WTF???




Sure, I make my own, I bought a load of protection circuits, 10mm Kapton tape and some wraps a few years ago and now I just buy Cells and roll my own 
I do Molicell P26a and P42a all the while for my incan lights.


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 3, 2021)

bigburly912 said:


> This. You are already well versed in making little vampires. Why not vampire some p60 modules?




that`s not a bad idea if I get a tube that takes common primaries, I really need my lights to arrive first though so i can see what i`m playing with in terms of space and pick-up points for the juice (2 springs on a reflector doesn`t tell me too much), I have some lovely 5mm warm white leds, maybe arranged as a triple would work too? but I really need to see first hand what I`m dealing with first. you`ve just kinda reminded me...I`v got a pack of aluminium brazing/soldering rods somewhere too!


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## Buck91 (Jan 3, 2021)

A triple 5mm would be cool- just like the old nite ize drop in for the minimag. It will take more effort though. You would have to mount the leds above the original bulb hole and I’m not sure if the leads would reach far enough at that point.


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## bigburly912 (Jan 3, 2021)

They make a long lead version of the 5mm led that should still have enough reach to make it. I’m anxious to see what she comes with. She makes some cool little lights


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 3, 2021)

Buck91 said:


> A triple 5mm would be cool- just like the old nite ize drop in for the minimag. It will take more effort though. You would have to mount the leds above the original bulb hole and I’m not sure if the leads would reach far enough at that point.



Something like that I`d probably pot as a cone with the 3 leds at the top then the inductor and QX5252 chip under that going off to 2 leads (+ and -) and try and fit the cone into the hole that was once the bulb before I drilled it out


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## jross20 (Jan 3, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> but that`s Terrible! :shakehead it such a waste and so bad for the environment not to mention the finances. is there No way they can be changed at all?




Agreed, I really wish more people saw it this way. LEDs don't last forever...

By chance could you get an older p60?


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 3, 2021)

jross20 said:


> Agreed, I really wish more people saw it this way. LEDs don't last forever...
> 
> By chance could you get an older p60?




possibly, but all the ones I`v seen are waaaay too expensive, even second hand, and Usually from the states so I have to pay a load of import tax as well


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## bigburly912 (Jan 3, 2021)

I would send you one but last item I sent to UK to help someone out cost me around 50 bucks just to ship. It’s not feasible at all and I don’t understand it. I used to ship autographs all over the world for around 10 bucks a pop. Had no idea shipping had gotten so ridiculous


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 3, 2021)

Thank you, that was a really kind thought non the less!


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## bigburly912 (Jan 3, 2021)

I’m just scared to ship something at that cost and it get “lost” in customs. I’ve had that happen a few times and it never gets easy to accept haha


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## novice (Jan 3, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> ...So I need to get a "twisty" then (whatever tha is LOL)?



The following is a list of Surefire tailcaps:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...st-of-Surefire-s-Tailcap-Switches-with-IMAGES

The Z41 (BK or HA), and Z42, Z43, Z44, and Z45 are the "twisty" tailcaps for the C/P/Z/G series.

The Z52, Z53, and Z54 are the "twisty" tailcaps for the E-series, and are generally much harder to find these days.

Watch out for the clones on the Bay. Some of their dimensions are quite sloppy.

[Edit: I forgot to mention the parts that Mark of Lumens Factory produces to support discontinued Surefires.]


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## simonsays (Jan 3, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> possibly, but all the ones I`v seen are waaaay too expensive, even second hand, and Usually from the states so I have to pay a load of import tax as well


I've seen a couple of Surefires sell on eBay in the last couple of weeks for about £30 (UK sellers) I'll admit to being quite surprised by that as I paid more than twice that for my second hand combatlight about 15 years ago. 

Surefire have never really made any effort at all to sell to the UK market and for that reason I find it hard to get excited about them.

Well built but a bit underwhelming performance wise.

Just before posting this I took out the LED drop in and replaced it with the High Output incandescent module. It wasn't nearly as bright as I remembered it being.... Nor was the beam as nice as a well set up floody warm high CRI LED (Although that could be an age thing, t'was a 15 year old bulb after all)

Sent from my Redmi Note 9 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Stress_Test (Jan 3, 2021)

Looks like Lumens Factory still sells P60 type incan modules on their website. In the Category menu, go to Lamp Module, SureFire Compatible, D26 series. They are listed by voltage (4, 6, 9). The "4" is a 3.7 volt bulb for a single lithium ion battery. 

I bought two of the EO4 modules years ago back when Lighthound was still in business and selling a bunch of Lumens Factory stuff. 

By the way, I've heard that high-pressure gas bulbs such as P60s can be a real eye hazard when they pop, so put on some eye protection before messing with them, if anyone is thinking of trying to R&R the bulb itself.


( edit: Dang, I found the screenshot of my EO-4 purchase... it was in 2009! Hard to believe it was that far back. I did notice that the Lumens Factory site's price for the bulb is still the same as what I paid back then (14.99) so kudos to them! :thumbsup: )


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## lightfooted (Jan 5, 2021)

jross20 said:


> Agreed, I really wish more people saw it this way. LEDs don't last forever...
> 
> By chance could you get an older p60?



Well they last longer than any gas filled glass bulb I've ever used...


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## simonsays (Jan 5, 2021)

lightfooted said:


> Well they last longer than any gas filled glass bulb I've ever used...


With my soldering skills I can break an LED before it ever receives any current

Sent from my Redmi Note 9 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 6, 2021)

to be honest I`m not really interested in putting any LED drop-ins in there, I have dozens of LED lights already, but in the winter I really want/need Incan lights, the Brightest I have at the moment is a 5D light with a 6v 1A bulb in it, and the next brightest has a 7.2v 600ma Krypton bulb powered by 2 protected 16340 cells in a small 1960`s light that used to take No#8 batteries. yes it`s a bit lame compared to todays LEDs in terms of beam profile and output, but it`s still 100CRI 

I`m wondering if I can bypas the tail switch entirely and turn it into a twisty? I`m reluctant to buy Anything from outside the UK now that .GOV greed has spoiled everything in terms of sales tax and import tax, so I figured a DIY approach may be the best way to go for a while.


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## broadgage (Jan 9, 2021)

Back in the day, I rebuilt a number of P60 lamp modules.
I used a 4.8 volt 0.5 amp mini bi pin halogen bulb to which I soldered two wires several inches long. I broke out the original bulb, lit the new one dimly from an external battery, and fixed it in place with epoxy putty.
The exact position of the bulb could be adjusted before the epoxy cured, to obtain a good beam pattern.
I then cut the wires short and soldered them to the springs.

Reduced light but extended run time.

The bulbs that I used are now less available


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## peter yetman (Jan 9, 2021)

Epoxy Putty is a great idea, stiff enough to hold the bulb in focus while it sets.
P


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 9, 2021)

I`v used that stuff before on a few things, it`s great. Normally I use super glue and Bicarb with GITD power in it, but the putty will be a better idea I think.
I bought some ceramic G4 sockets the other day, they have an 8mm OD, I`d don`t know if they`ll fit one of these modules after the old bulb has been drilled out because I`v not seen one up close yet, but I`m hoping they will


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## alpg88 (Jan 9, 2021)

i'm still looking for oem SF G3 module, no luck so far


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## thermal guy (Jan 9, 2021)

I would agree with what others have said. I don’t use incandescent lights like I did before the big LED shift. But when I did a SF P60 would last me 4-5 months easy. With just a few spares you would be good for years.


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 10, 2021)

I do tend to use LED lights a lot more than before especialy for certain jobs, but in the Winter indoors I prefer almost exclusively Incan lights, I still use them in the summer months for reading at night though, to be honest it`s purely out of curiosity that I bought a couple P60s because I wanted to see what more Modern incans were like, I didn`t really get past the early 1980s in terms of incan tech, even then I reverted back to 60`s 70`s tech and just upgraded the batts and bulbs as an when I could.


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 11, 2021)

Update:
My Lithium iron phosphate batts arrived today (I`m still waiting for the charger) they came fully charged, so I tried a pair of them in a light with a 6v 500ma bulb and it works perfectly, nothing flashed at all!  so it looks like I`ll probably be OK with 6v modules now, I just have to remember to let them stand for a good while after charging, which is fine because I bought 4 of them.


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 13, 2021)

Further update:

Some potentially good news, it turns out that Some of these modules come apart quite easily! the big spring comes off and then the brass base unscrews from the Alu reflector part, in the brass part the bulb itself is half inside a hole drilled into it with a small clear rubber ring around that to stop the bulb from wiggling about. the hole the bulb is inside is the Exact diametar of these G4 ceramic bulb holders I bought! 
it`ll need the threaded side of the reflector filing down a bit so the threads catch earlier and some cleaning out of the old bulb and stuff in the brass part, but it`s looking really doable right now! 

That is all. (for now)


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## ampdude (Jan 16, 2021)

alpg88 said:


> i'm still looking for oem SF G3 module, no luck so far



I haven't read this thread thoroughly, but what are you referring to, a P90? That's what came in the SF G3 incan model.

You can still order MN03's and P60's from Surefire direct, but that's it.


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## alpg88 (Jan 16, 2021)

ampdude said:


> I haven't read this thread thoroughly, but what are you referring to, a P90? That's what came in the SF G3 incan model.
> 
> You can still order MN03's and P60's from Surefire direct, but that's it.



i looked them up first, they only sell 60lm p60 6v and 60lm 6v mn03, which is just a bulb, looks like for old e2. no 9v 105lm module available i called them before.

lumens factory makes replacements, but i'm looking for original SF module,


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## ampdude (Jan 18, 2021)

alpg88 said:


> i looked them up first, they only sell 60lm p60 6v and 60lm 6v mn03, which is just a bulb, looks like for old e2. no 9v 105lm module available i called them before.
> 
> lumens factory makes replacements, but i'm looking for original SF module,



There's some P90's on ebay right now. Usually are on there and not too expensive. They did make a lot of them, though not as many as the P60's. I'd go that route.

I'm glad SF is still at least keeping P60's and MN03's in stock, (and they're likely old stock) but it would be nice to have new P90's as well.

I guess it would be REALLY nice to have the entire line back, but that's never going to happen. We just have to appreciate it for what it was back in the day.


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## alpg88 (Jan 18, 2021)

ampdude said:


> There's some P90's on ebay right now. Usually are on there and not too expensive. They did make a lot of them, though not as many as the P60's. I'd go that route.
> 
> I'm glad SF is still at least keeping P60's and MN03's in stock, (and they're likely old stock) but it would be nice to have new P90's as well.
> 
> I guess it would be REALLY nice to have the entire line back, but that's never going to happen. We just have to appreciate it for what it was back in the day.


thanks, i did check ebay there is 9v Lumens Factory replacement module, very reasonably priced i might add. but i'm looking for original SF module, i just want it to be 100% authentic. i wont be using it much anyway, i just want to keep it as an example of old technology that will prbly be forgotten in a decade, it is not like i need it for use. i'll keep looking, i'm sure some day i'll find one, i want to show my son, who is now 15 mo. one day what was the most advanced stuff before his time.


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## alpg88 (Jan 18, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> aww maaan! that kinda sux
> So I need to get a "twisty" then (whatever tha is LOL)?


this guy sells mcclicky for 7bucks, but shipping may kill the savings
https://www.illumn.com/mcclicky-swi...amph3afm4V370q9Dc5qaiCpuCBajUyKhoCmIkQAvD_BwE


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## alpg88 (Jan 18, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> I`m reluctant to buy Anything from outside the UK now that .GOV greed has spoiled everything in terms of sales tax and import tax, so I figured a DIY approach may be the best way to go for a while.



just out of curiosity, what if a package you receive is not an order, but a gift, from friends and family, do they want duty tax on that too? do they open every package to assess the value regardless of what is in it?


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## fivemega (Jan 19, 2021)

alpg88 said:


> i'm still looking for oem SF G3 module, no luck so far


*Until you find one, try 10W G4 bulb in one of these. *


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## Katherine Alicia (Jan 19, 2021)

alpg88 said:


> just out of curiosity, what if a package you receive is not an order, but a gift, from friends and family, do they want duty tax on that too? do they open every package to assess the value regardless of what is in it?



I`m not sure about the friends/family thing because I`v never had one outside the UK, but anything from the West (Canada, USA) I get charged regardless and without fail, stuff from the East (Europe, China etc...) I Sometimes get stuff opened and charged but not very often, but since Jan 1`st all that`s changed and I get charged at point of sale and my stuff gets opened more frequently. I could in effect buy a .99p item, have them rip it open, charge me .20p tax and £8-12 extra for the privilage of doing so! (Theft basicaly).
I think this is probably the fate of my LEP that I ordered last year, it left L.A on Dec 17th and hasn`t been seen since! so it`s either been stolen or they`re deciding what to charge me in tax etc...


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## alpg88 (Jan 19, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> I`m not sure about the friends/family thing because I`v never had one outside the UK, but anything from the West (Canada, USA) I get charged regardless and without fail, stuff from the East (Europe, China etc...) I Sometimes get stuff opened and charged but not very often, but since Jan 1`st all that`s changed and I get charged at point of sale and my stuff gets opened more frequently. I could in effect buy a .99p item, have them rip it open, charge me .20p tax and £8-12 extra for the privilage of doing so! (Theft basicaly).
> I think this is probably the fate of my LEP that I ordered last year, it left L.A on Dec 17th and hasn`t been seen since! so it`s either been stolen or they`re deciding what to charge me in tax etc...


wow that is pretty bad


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