# New HID From Group 5 Engineering



## SJMorgan

I was in the market for a Beast II when I received a new HID light for evaluation from a company called Group 5 Engineering (www.group5engineering.com), called the HB-1. 

About the same size as the Beast and made of 7000 series aluminum (used for aircraft wing spar and load bearing components), it is simpler in its design, with fewer parts. 

The reflector is a Group 5 design, and comes in two different head sizes, which could be described as large (HB-1), and larger (HB-2). This reflector is a bespoke design. Very efficient. 

What attracted me to the light was its simple design and strength, along with its light output, which at 5900 lumens, is about 3X brighter than the Beast. 

With adequate mass and a pyrex lens, there is no heat problem when handling the HB-1. 

Priced at under $3000, The HB doesn't have the LEDs that the Beast has, but it is brighter. 

I did do a quick comparison at a gun shop that had a Beast II, and found that the HB-1 was brighter, by a huge margin. The HB lit up a building across the 6 lane wide street in daylight, where the $4,500 Beast could just make the address sign reflect. At short range, it simply obliterated the light output of the competing HID flashlight. 

Using a set of disposable 123's, it runs for about an 1hr+15. A lithium pack may be available, but it just wont last as long, and rechargeable lithium batteries have a habit of catching fire in hot environments, such as car trunks (I am qualified on this one). I will stick to the 123s and an extra magazine of batteries. 

My intended use for the light is to chase coyotes from my property, which has a pond and swans, evidently a favorite delicacy of coyotes. 

In testing it, the coyotes ran, but the raccoons stood up and danced. 
The thing is big and heavy, but when I need light, it makes just about everything available look like a jar full of fire flies. 

Outside of a helicopter born Night Sun, it is the brightest hand held light that I have ever seen. 

I would post some photos taken across a canyon under a full moon, but I am not allowed to attach photos here.


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## BVH

Hi, Welcome to CPF!

Looks like a nice light. What color temp is the lamp, how much does the light weigh and is it waterproof?

You should do a search on "Xeray" and Barn Burner" to do a comparison of the Xeray commercially available 50 Watt, hand-held HID light. The 50 watt version puts out about 5,300 Lumens at a color temp of 4200K. The light weighs about 5 lbs, 5 oz and utilizes a rechargeable Lithium battery pack, good for about 90 minutes. While it is hand-held, it is a different style than the "maglite" style of your light. Some like it, some don't. Cost of the Xeray is under $1,000. Use Photobucket to host some pics of the light and of beamshots. We'd all love to see them. It's great whenever a new HID light comes on the market!

It would be interesting to see a shootout between these two lights.


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## Illum

oo: :wow: oo:
why does that remind me of an M6?


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## kalkwasser

Illum_the_nation said:


> oo: :wow: oo:
> why does that remind me of an M6?


 
It can show that how well the design/popular is the Surefire M6 that alot of flashlight manufacture are trying to have more or less the similar look and feel.


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## jrv

Illum_the_nation said:


> oo: :wow: oo:
> why does that remind me of an M6?


It looks very functional to me as a way of minimizing heat transport from the bulb to where the batteries are, not to mention the operator's hands.


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## JB

Sorry, for some reason reading SJMorgan's post just triggered a "shilling alert". Here we have a newbie, just-registered and his first post is to extol the virtues of a $3,000 light that he received for evaluation? Wow!

Anyway, I did surf over to Group 5's website. Those shots of the HB-1 look like CAD or ray-traced drawings, rather than real life pictures. The contact page also says "As seen in WIRED". Tried to search for it on wired.com but no hits. Strange.

If I'm off-base then I apologise in advance, but I just have a funny feeling.


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## MikeLip

Also limited to 2000 units as I recall. Still, it seems like a sweet HID. I wouldn't mind having one, but I'm not going to pony up for it!


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## scott.cr

JB said:


> Sorry, for some reason reading SJMorgan's post just triggered a "shilling alert".



Likewise sentiments here. Oh well. In terms of spam, it's a pretty benign post, and poorly done enough that he's not fooling anybody. ;-) $3k is way out of range for a light like that, at least Surefire has extensive street creds. If Group 5 made one of these available for a passaround I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated (I know I would personally greatly appreciate it).


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## BVH

I guess I tried to be too polite in my post above. My intent was to nicely let the poster know that what he was purveying was way out of wack with reality.


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## sharkeeper

Passaround anyone?


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## MikeLip

I'd be in for that!


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## SJMorgan

JB said:


> Sorry, for some reason reading SJMorgan's post just triggered a "shilling alert". Here we have a newbie, just-registered and his first post is to extol the virtues of a $3,000 light that he received for evaluation? Wow!
> 
> Anyway, I did surf over to Group 5's website. Those shots of the HB-1 look like CAD or ray-traced drawings, rather than real life pictures. The contact page also says "As seen in WIRED". Tried to search for it on wired.com but no hits. Strange.
> 
> If I'm off-base then I apologise in advance, but I just have a funny feeling.



Apologies accepted, but none are needed. I understand how you feel. 

Photos are real. See, the photos were professionally done product shots, and not the usual sort of snap shot that I have seen on most forum sites. I actually saw the product for the first time at the studio, where I was checking out some other stuff for my work. 

There are a couple of different designs. Some guys like fins on their lights I guess. Mine has none, but doesn't get hot.

Yes I am new to this flashlight hobby, but my work allows me to get all kinds of stuff for evaluation. I evaluate cameras, cars, motorcycles and aircraft as well. I am also a target shooter and a tool whore. I own a few vintage racers, and spin the wrenches myself. I also like EKA pocket knives. 

SureFire has street cred to be sure, and many nice products (of which I own none). In the case of their Flagship product, Beast II, they are simply out matched. HB-1 is 3X brighter, has better beam spread, and much longer range. Its actually brighter than anything hand held at the moment. Size and weight are about the same. There are some features that I like about the Beast, such as the rubber covers and styling, but it just doesn't put out the lumens for its weight and cost. 

The HB has appeared in Wired and Robb Report. They had evaluation units as well to play with. It will also appear in Auto Aficionado at some point, I suspect. The selection of venues for introduction has more to do with PR firms contacts and the need for those magazines to get special stuff for their Holiday issues. The Beast has appeared in some of these publications as well. 

You can purchase and take delivery of an HB1 or 2 immediately. Today, if you like. Just call Group 5. 

I have seen the XeRay. It is heavier, and uses Lithium rechargables, which I have a problem with in packs. Not quite as elegant as the HB-1. It's a little bulky and shaped like a lunch box, which is not easy to store in my mid engine sports car, or beneath the seat of my sedan. For the price, it is a pretty bright light. 

But not quite as bright as the HB-1. That said, I liked it (especially the price to lumens ratio), but did not buy when I saw the HB-1. 

The HB-1 is a hand produced work of art. No castings, each part machined from the solid block of alloy. The reflector is original thinking, spun and polished locally, and not sourced from China or India. It has an expensive parts content. I appreciate the effort that went in to it, the performance and the pricing. 

BVH: The bulb is the well known D2S, 50W with and 5700ºK. That, along with the bespoke reflector might explain its brightness, which is certainly well within the realm of reality. It is possible to make a 75 watt version, but the problem of short run time diminishes the value of the product. 

This is a site of flashlight geeks, and I am becomming one. Everyone here has a favorite, and shills for some company or another after purchasing some esoteric $500 light. Why not? If you like the product, you say so. 

One way to learn more about new products and what works is to check out the Forum, right? 

I am sure that at least one of you can probably qualify to get a unit for evaluation, right? If you are in the L.A. area, you can visit the manufacturer. I am sure that someone here can convince a small company to arrange a pass-around. 

You can get pissy over the introduction of a new product, or you can investigate and discuss. 

Remember when SureFire was a new company, with expensive lights? 

As for being suspicious, well, anyone that pays three grand (or even wants to) for a flashlight is completely nutz. Hell, we could all be suspect.


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## BVH

I can't figure out why a light of this caliber would have a 5700K lamp when so many lumens and color contrast are lost by doing so. Same with the Microfires? Do you have any idea why they went with such a high color temp? Do you know the manufacturer of the ballast?


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## cmacclel

Welcome Group 5 Engineering 

I saw your light in wired. So how long have you had a XeVision and do you have any beamshots to backup your claims?

You keep on comparing your light to the Beast.....can you throw the HB 1 as hard as you can straight up into the air.....when the light comes down onto the pavement let us know if it turns on. We know the Beast will 

Does anyone else smell something funny?

Mac


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## SJMorgan

BVH said:


> I can't figure out why a light of this caliber would have a 5700K lamp when so many lumens and color contrast are lost by doing so. Same with the Microfires? Do you have any idea why they went with such a high color temp? Do you know the manufacturer of the ballast?



No, but the reflector is pretty special, having an efficiency of over 92%. Over 95% of the output is in the visible spectrum. 

Color contrast is fine for my old eyes. As far as lost lumens, check out the other high end lights. Which at 50 W is better? 

I just sent the thing to a friend in the landing light business so that they could check out the reflector. They use the same bulb as well. 

The guy that designed it probably went for the brightest lamp he could find, and worked from there. The reflector designer had some say in it as well, I suppose. 

Most of my current work is in automotive engineering and testing. I have found that some things, such as the legendary handling of Porsches, is something to be amazed by, as Porsches have horrible weight distribution and polar moment. Yet. they still handle well. Porsche has spent quite a bit of time engineering around the problem, successfully. With a superior mid engine chassis available to them, they still keep plugging away with the rear engine 911, even in racing. As you wonder about the 5700K bulb, I wonder about the 911. I have to admit, the 997GT3 "Cup" that I occasionally test does handle quite well. Still, it's "designed wrong". 

It could be that there are good reasons to keep the 5700K bulb. I find that it is apparently brighter than some of the Xenon "cold light" sources that I have worked with (I used to design lighting units for endoscopy in a previous life). Maybe there is a lumen loss, but compared to anything else? Its still (apparently) brighter.


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## XeRay

SJMorgan said:


> The bulb is the well known D2S, 50W with and 5700ºK.


 
With that 5700K color temp the bulb would have to be Osram High color D2S bulb or it is an Asian made bulb. Osram does not make any true 50 watt D2S so it must be overdriven. If it is driven at 50 watts to the bulb the lumens at the bulb, output is less than 5300, more like 4500 or less lumens at that color temp of 5700K. Philips makes a 6,000K bulb so it is not Philips. GE makes a 5100K bulb so also not GE. Philips is the only reputable manufacturer of a true 50 watt D2S (P32d) bulb and it is closer to 4,000K output and about 5300 Lumens with 50 watt input.

4200K or there abouts is still the best color for flashlights. anything over 5100K is a mistake in my opinion. 3900 - 5100K is the best range.


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## Cigarman

This gets more and more interesting as time goes on....I would definitely like to see the innards of this light. And moreso what makes it worth 3000 clams.


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## Mr Ted Bear

Time for a shootout! Can anyone provide a phone number for Group 5?


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## Patriot

Yes, it sounded funny right out of the gate to me. Between the comparisons with the Beast, it's obviously styled very closely to the M6, they're only making 2000, it isn't rechargeable, it supposedly uses a 5700K Osram??? and it costs substantially more than a Polarion X1 or Helios. Morgan may very well be just a new enthusiast with many hobbies and that's great. Welcome to the world of flashlights Morgan. I just don't have any interest in this light because of it's obvious short comings and price range. How is this light better than a Polarion even if it was priced at $2000 instead of $3000? I suspect that this light will mostly sell to un-knowledgeably wealthy people vs. enthusiasts and collectors, provided that they did their marketing research. Additionally, there has to be a very high percentage of mark-up for a company to venture into something like this and not loose their butts.

Sorry, not for me guys.


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## BVH

I agree with Mr. TB., time for a controlled shootout. What say you SJMorgan? People good at doing unbiased shootouts are here in the LA area.


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## brightnorm

I was surprised that the website gave so little information about the light; virtually no specs at all. When I clicked on "FAQs" I expected to learn a lot about the light and was disappointed. If I was a potential buyer this would be a problem.

Brightnorm


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## Illum

[Private info removed]


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## Mr Ted Bear

OK, I have now sent 2 emails, and just spoke to Jerry Witt @Motion City Films. MCF only did the domain registration, and has nothing to do with the manufacturing of the light. Stay tuned...


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## SaVaGe

Mr Ted Bear said:


> Time for a shootout! Can anyone provide a phone number for Group 5?


 

+1 lets invite polarion too:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs


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## SaVaGe

Patriot36 said:


> Yes, it sounded funny right out of the gate to me. Between the comparisons with the Beast, it's obviously styled very closely to the M6, they're only making 2000, it isn't rechargeable, it supposedly uses a 5700K Osram??? and it costs substantially more than a Polarion X1 or Helios. Morgan may very well be just a new enthusiast with many hobbies and that's great. Welcome to the world of flashlights Morgan. I just don't have any interest in this light because of it's obvious short comings and price range. How is this light better than a Polarion even if it was priced at $2000 instead of $3000? I suspect that this light will mostly sell to un-knowledgeably wealthy people vs. enthusiasts and collectors, provided that they did their marketing research. Additionally, there has to be a very high percentage of mark-up for a company to venture into something like this and not loose their butts.
> 
> Sorry, not for me guys.


 
WELL SAID!!!:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs


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## SaVaGe

If you believe in it so much HOW ABOUT A SHOOOOOOOOT OUT?

:devil::devil::devil::devil:


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## Illum

you know...theres an "edit" button on the lower right corner of every post you make and its there to modify [that includes adding/removing] additional comments? 

next time, try the edit button before clicking "reply" the minute you finish making a statement:thumbsup:

I received a timeout message on group5.com...apparently whois can't receive info at the moment, I'll try again later


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## GhostReaction

SJMorgan said:


> I have seen the XeRay. It is heavier, and uses Lithium rechargables, which I have a problem with in packs. Not quite as elegant as the HB-1. It's a little bulky and shaped like a lunch box, which is not easy to store in my mid engine sports car, or beneath the seat of my sedan. For the price, it is a pretty bright light.



Hey nobody should talk about those XeRay like that. UNLESS you could beat thier price tag and pump more lumens than those monster lunchbox!


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## Ken J. Good

If there is a shoot-out, I am in....Always interested in new toys and approaches.


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## MikeLip

OK you cynics - get off the guys case! Not everyone who comes to the forum and posts a rave review on their first time out is a shill! I'm sure there are statistics out there somewhere proving this. :devil:

Aaaanyway, cost aside I'd LOVE to see a shootout. I can't afford the G5, but I can't afford the Polarion either. And I certainly can't afford a Beast! But it's always fun to see how these dream lights perform against each other and do the "if I win the lottery" thing.

So bring it on!


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## djblank87

This is a very intersting thread I must say.  And a shoot out should be in order since we seem to have all the players here and are ready for a battle.


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## JetskiMark

djblank87 said:


> This is a very intersting thread I must say.  And a shoot out should be in order since we seem to have all the players here and are ready for a battle.



I agree and I hope to be able to witness the event if it happens.

Regards,
Mark


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## SJMorgan

GhostReaction said:


> Hey nobody should talk about those XeRay like that. UNLESS you could beat thier price tag and pump more lumens than those monster lunchbox!



Ah, but I have an advanced degree in design, so I can call it a lunch box if I want. I am pretty sure that the designer would understand. The real problem is that it wont fit into my cars, can't be stashed behind the seats, and has that problem with high temp environments. Oh, I said it again,didn't I.

Really, if all I wanted was light output vs.$$, XeRay would be a first choice. 

However, I don't wear a Timex, don't drive a Camry or a 91 Ford F150, and I don't fly a Cirrus (not that there is anything wrong with any of those things). My preference is for things that are not only functional and mission adequate. They have to be technologically interesting, and exceedingly well made, with excellent performance. Yes, they have to fit in the alloted storage space as well. 

Fortunately for me, my sensibilities wont be harmed by buying a XeRay, even though I admire its functionality. There are other more attractive lights available. 

Just my opinion. But then I actually HAVE an HB. 

As for throwing my HB up in the air to see if it would break upon landing, well, it probably would. So would the Beast. Little rubber baby buggy bumpers wont do much for a 50' drop. Anyway, who throws their $4700 flashlight anyway? Those things are not DISPOSABLE. 

In any case, I have the light to,well, put light on the subject. I don't intend to throw it at anyone. 

You may get your shootout. Stand by.


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## GROUP5ENGR

hi guys, I manufacture the HB-1 and 2. I want to try to respond to some of your posts. Quick history; I've been building aircraft for 40+ years. I was looking for some widgit to make as I gently slip into retirement. As with you guys, I am sort of fascinated with flashlights. I decided to try to build the best flashlight on the planet, regardless of cost. I contacted an number of people to advise me. Most important is Marlow Pichel, a brilliant lighting engineer with an extensive background in military lighting. Anyway, I follow the advice of these guys and encapsulate the components they suggest. That's where the design came from. Form follows function, right? The cooling fins dissipate heat. 
I really don't want to throw one of these onto the street to test it. The technonogy is automotive and should be pretty durable.
I would be glad to speak with any of you, or do a "shootout". I'm sure I could learn a lot from you guys. Anyone in the area is welcome to come by, or PM me.
Here are some specs; 7075 Aloca aluminum, D2S bulb by GE (5590 lumens according to GE), nickel true deep parabolic reflector coated by Infinite Optics with aluminum silicon monoxide, gold plated electric grade copper contacts, 16" tall, four and a quarter pounds, runs for one and a quarter hours.


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## cmacclel

SJMorgan said:


> Ah, but I have an advanced degree in design, so I can call it a lunch box if I want. I am pretty sure that the designer would understand. The real problem is that it wont fit into my cars, can't be stashed behind the seats, and has that problem with high temp environments. Oh, I said it again,didn't I.
> 
> Really, if all I wanted was light output vs.$$, XeRay would be a first choice.
> 
> However, I don't wear a Timex, don't drive a Camry or a 91 Ford F150, and I don't fly a Cirrus (not that there is anything wrong with any of those things). My preference is for things that are not only functional and mission adequate. They have to be technologically interesting, and exceedingly well made, with excellent performance. Yes, they have to fit in the alloted storage space as well.
> 
> Fortunately for me, my sensibilities wont be harmed by buying a XeRay, even though I admire its functionality. There are other more attractive lights available.
> 
> Just my opinion. But then I actually HAVE an HB.
> 
> As for throwing my HB up in the air to see if it would break upon landing, well, it probably would. So would the Beast. Little rubber baby buggy bumpers wont do much for a 50' drop. Anyway, who throws their $4700 flashlight anyway? Those things are not DISPOSABLE.
> 
> In any case, I have the light to,well, put light on the subject. I don't intend to throw it at anyone.
> 
> You may get your shootout. Stand by.





The beast has been thrown in the air and come down onto the pavement and still worked. It was designed to withstand the harshest conditions. This was the point I was trying to make when you kept on comparing your light to Surfire’s. Who care's if the HB is brighter if it falls 3 feet and breaks was my point. If I was going to investing $3000+ dollars into a Illumination tool it would need to be rugged, also if the Surefire breaks it warrantee’d for life.

Mac


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## cmacclel

GROUP5ENGR said:


> hi guys, I manufacture the HB-1 and 2. I want to try to respond to some of your posts. Quick history; I've been building aircraft for 40+ years. I was looking for some widgit to make as I gently slip into retirement. As with you guys, I am sort of fascinated with flashlights. I decided to try to build the best flashlight on the planet, regardless of cost. I contacted an number of people to advise me. Most important is Marlow Pichel, a brilliant lighting engineer with an extensive background in military lighting. Anyway, I follow the advice of these guys and encapsulate the components they suggest. That's where the design came from. Form follows function, right? The cooling fins dissipate heat.
> I really don't want to throw one of these onto the street to test it. The technonogy is automotive and should be pretty durable.
> I would be glad to speak with any of you, or do a "shootout". I'm sure I could learn a lot from you guys. Anyone in the area is welcome to come by, or PM me.
> Here are some specs; 7075 Aloca aluminum, D2S bulb by GE (5590 lumens according to GE), nickel true deep parabolic reflector coated by Infinite Optics with aluminum silicon monoxide, gold plated electric grade copper contacts, 16" tall, four and a quarter pounds, runs for one and a quarter hours.




Welcome 

What battery Technology? Field replaceable?

Our resident HID expert stated that Philips nor GE make a 5700k temprature lamp? 

Mac


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## ICUDoc

GROUP5ENGR said:


> hi guys, I manufacture the HB-1 and 2. I want to try to respond to some of your posts. Quick history; I've been building aircraft for 40+ years. I was looking for some widgit to make as I gently slip into retirement. As with you guys, I am sort of fascinated with flashlights. I decided to try to build the best flashlight on the planet, regardless of cost. I contacted an number of people to advise me. Most important is Marlow Pichel, a brilliant lighting engineer with an extensive background in military lighting. Anyway, I follow the advice of these guys and encapsulate the components they suggest. That's where the design came from. Form follows function, right? The cooling fins dissipate heat.
> I really don't want to throw one of these onto the street to test it. The technonogy is automotive and should be pretty durable.
> I would be glad to speak with any of you, or do a "shootout". I'm sure I could learn a lot from you guys. Anyone in the area is welcome to come by, or PM me.
> Here are some specs; 7075 Aloca aluminum, D2S bulb by GE (5590 lumens according to GE), nickel true deep parabolic reflector coated by Infinite Optics with aluminum silicon monoxide, gold plated electric grade copper contacts, 16" tall, four and a quarter pounds, runs for one and a quarter hours.



Welcome to you GROUP5ENGR! These forums are lots of fun and so many people here share knowledge and advice and learn from each other. We even have Dealer's Forums for advertising. I strongly suspect that if you had posted first (before SJMorgan with the mid-engined sprts car)) your product would have been a source of fascination before suspicion. But the beauty of these forums is everyone gets a fair go, so bring on the shootout!!


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## MikeLip

GROUP5ENGR said:


> hi guys, I manufacture the HB-1 and 2.



Allll RIGHT! Now it's getting even more interesting. This has the potential to be one of the most fun thread on CPF in ages!

I'm rooting for a shootout. If airfare is paid, I might even show up with my, umm, Amondotech and new AE Light! :devil:

OK, so they're no competition. But this whole thing is shaping up nicely!


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## LuxLuthor

SJMorgan said:


> Yes I am new to this flashlight hobby, but my work allows me to get all kinds of stuff for evaluation.



You might have had some credibility if you had not made this statement, followed by a rather intricate and detailed knowledge of some of the most cutting edge HID lights, bulb temps, reflectors, & other features. 

Someone "new" to "this flashlight hobby" who gets "all kinds of stuff for evaluation" would hardly be up to speed like you seem to be. Also a new member would not start out by trashing some of the most well known and respected lights as you have done.

I think you would have been ahead of the game coming out and announcing yourself as a new member, and promoting a light you want to try selling. You should realize at this point that some of the most respected members in this section have effectively "nailed you." 

There are no details on your website which was just created September 22, 2007 and opened through Tucows.com, no local USA presence, no phone number listed. No way for anyone to veryify anything about your product or company. Are you home based in Nigeria or Communist China? I just want to know the bank I should wire my $3,000 to.


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## Illum

Comparisons between lights should wait until a shootout or a review WITH SPECS of both lights as comparisons without definitive values from creditable sources is useless...and this is inclusive of morgans opinions about the light

I agree the webpage is fishy, company info is nonexistent, light specs is nonexistent, contact us only has an email:shakehead


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## BVH

GROUP5ENGR,

Lots of questions answered but I haven't seen a brand of ballast named and it's specs - input and output. Is it a 35 watt or higher ballast? We'd like to know the intricate details of the power source, ballast brand & specs, lamp brand & specs and power supplied to the lamp. (Some of which you have supplied) I would hope (and have no doubt) that even if some of the more respected members have "nailed you" that they are open-minded and ready to give your light an unprejudiced evaluation. 

In the past, Mr Ted Bear (and his helpers) has conducted some excellent product shootouts under controlled conditions. His analysis and conclusions are well respected as unbiased and "real world". Maybe he will conduct another? How would he obtain one of your lights?


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## BVH

I'm not a real big fan of primary 123s and especially of the requirement of the use of so many of them for an hour+ of run time. Might be interesting to investigate the making of a rechargeable, protected 123 cell pack for your light and modding the tailcap for the use of a charging jack. Maybe both models could be an option?

(Your first day here and we're already "suggesting" to you how to change your light! We have the nerve!. I guess there's two ways to look at it. As being helpful or "go away kid, you're bothering me!" In any case, this IS going to be a fun thread and investigation.)


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## GROUP5ENGR

some answers; first, please bare with me as I'm new to all forums. O.K., the Websight is under control of the PR guys. It is not how I would have done it, and we are working on making it more technical.
Re ballast; made in Germany, Auerswald input: 9-16V DC, output: 35/50w I'm running it a 50W.
Re lumens; I got my data on the lamp from Mark at AE light


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## LuxLuthor

Are one of you Rich Ushler of El Segundo, California that is identified on the "Company" tab of your website? 

This link indicates that there is some respectable engineering background for Mr. Ushler, so I think he would be a better messenger to present your new product than the transparent promotions by you and SJMorgan. Likewise, combining new product promotion with bashing very well respected lights is not a good introduction.

If you have a nice new product, present it in detail, and let us subject it to questions and scrutiny. For example, I seriously doubt this first post claim: "_*The HB lit up a building across the 6 lane wide street in daylight, where the $4,500 Beast could just make the address sign reflect*_" because I have a XeRay 75W Barn Burner, X990, & Larry14K spotlight, and they are not visible on the fence or trees in my back yard during the daylight. Only the MaxaBeam is visible in this setting, and there's no way any of my lights (including the MaxaBeam) would light up a building across a 6 lane wide street in daylight.



GROUP5ENGR said:


> some answers; first, please *bare *with me as I'm new to all forums. O.K., the *Websight *is under control of the PR guys.


One final tip in representing a new company/product....good to take a minute and correct things like the word "*bare*" and "*Websight*" which do not generate confidence in your promotions. So is this an AE light product?


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## BVH

Great! This is the technical info we all love to know!

If Mr. Ted Bear were to agree to do a shootout, would you be willing to provide (lend him) a standard production light for the event? They are taken care of and not physically abused but they are put through their performance paces.


Mr. TB, if I seem to be kinda, sorta volunteering you and it's not your desire, tell me to go to my room.

I would like to see this light, the Helios, the Xeray 50 Watt, the Beast, the LarryK14 and the Barn Burner and if Mac has one of his Torch (the Turbo model he made one or two of. I think it was a 250 watt version) in the shootout. I'm sure I've forgot a few so someone chime in here.


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## Ken J. Good

This is not a Beast bash, but a general comment on what should be attributed to what.
I am trying to get shock-absorbers available for the Polarion series of lights.

I think the toss it up in the air and have the light continue to work is more a function of the bumpers rather than the materials/components of the light itself.

Assuming everybody is using aircraft grade aluminum, quality electronics and lamps, what is the secret ingredient of the Beast?

Is the massive amounts of metal, different glass? shock isolated lamps/electronics, special batteries?

I am not being argumentative, I honestly want to know what you think the difference is supposed to be.

I have accidently dropped a few Polarion's on concrete several times anywhere from 3-5'....Each time I cringe as I just hate to scratch up these lights...Kinda a first for me (most equipment I just don't care). Anyway, a 4 lbs light dropped on concrete goes THUD......I pick them up and go. 

Again, I believe at this point the limiting factor would be the bumper design not the light itself. 

There is a practical limit here balanced against function. Bigger bumpers with the right material selection would mean I could punt it through the goal posts....At the end of the day, so what? 

When I first sent lights out to military units, one of the tests that was conducted by a Special Forces Army Unit (they told me afterwards). They took the 2 lights I gave them in the Pelican and they tossed the package out of a Helicopter that was several hundred feet off the ground. They wanted to make sure that if the lights got accidently pushed out or dropped, they would still work. I believe it was dirt, not concrete below.

Both of those lights were perfectly fine and are still in circulation today as T&E units.

Again, my point, I think that is more a function of the Pelican case not the light design.


----------



## dudemar

GROUP5ENGR said:


> Re ballast; made in Germany, Auerswald input: 9-16V DC, output: 35/50w I'm running it a 50W.
> Re lumens; I got my data on the lamp from Mark at AE light



The data reference from AE light and the fact AE uses Auerswald ballasts, makes the Group 5 HID sound like an AE light; minus the AE branding. Is something going on here?

The OP sounds like a re-hash of the infamous "Kevin Cho" and "lighting1288" posts:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1020701#post1020701

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/110180

The abrasive "Little rubber baby buggy bumpers wont do much for a 50' drop." comment is ridiculous, when PK (*[SIZE=-1]SureFire's Vice President of Engineering[/SIZE]*) himself demonstrated this in front of CPFers with a Beast. Why would he do such a thing? To prove a point. It can survive such a drop- multiple times.


Dudemar


----------



## GROUP5ENGR

sorry, "bear with". AE Light is the source of the ballasts and lamps. Group 5 is not affiliated with them except as an advisor and supplier.


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

Group5Engr

As you might have figured out, I am hoping to compare the HB1 with many of the other well known HID lights on the market. I have let a few go out my collection, but still, I have a couple (dozen) which the comparison could be made.

I am sure at least a half dozen CPF members would make it to the shootout, and of course, you would be most welcome to attend (please do come!). Well, I live in Northridge, and from what I can gather, you are in the South Bay/ El Segundo area. I could make myself available almost anytime convient to you. Balls in your court, as they say...


----------



## BVH

Of course, I'm in! I could provide the LarryK14 and Barn Burner. And just for pure fun, I could bring a Locator so I can finally get some good beam shots by Mr. TB


----------



## London Lad

The Beast II has a shock isolated lamp mount as well as the rubber bumpers. It also comes with both c123 and rechargeable power packs and can be charged in the field from almost any 12 volt supply.

It has low level leds and UV leds, its guaranteed for life and can be had for not much more than $3000 if you shop around.

Oh and its made by Surefire.

I know which one I would buy, well, DID buy!

SJM, promote the virtues of your product don't knock the opposition.


----------



## SJMorgan

LuxLuthor said:


> You might have had some credibility if you had not made this statement, followed by a rather intricate and detailed knowledge of some of the most cutting edge HID lights, bulb temps, reflectors, & other features.
> 
> Someone "new" to "this flashlight hobby" who gets "all kinds of stuff for evaluation" would hardly be up to speed like you seem to be. Also a new member would not start out by trashing some of the most well known and respected lights as you have done.
> 
> I think you would have been ahead of the game coming out and announcing yourself as a new member, and promoting a light you want to try selling. You should realize at this point that some of the most respected members in this section have effectively "nailed you."
> 
> There are no details on your website which was just created September 22, 2007 and opened through Tucows.com, no local USA presence, no phone number listed. No way for anyone to veryify anything about your product or company. Are you home based in Nigeria or Communist China? I just want to know the bank I should wire my $3,000 to.



Ah, I have tried to sell a flashlight? Really, if I had asked for money, well, I would have told you just where to send it. Quite an imagination you have. Obviously, you didn't read any of what I posted. 

If you bothered to read the thread, you would find that the guy that actually manufacturers and sells the lights posted already, and probably answered your question. He lives in L.A. area, and is reachable by PM. He would have put up his phone number, but I think that he was thinking of you in particular when he decided to use the PM feature. 

Anyway, he offered to attend a shootout, so I guess that he is not based in Nigeria or China. 

As for my being "nailed"...

My work in the 70s-90s revolved in designing rigid and flexible endoscopic photo systems and instruments, as well as endoscopic LIGHTSOURCES (which I have previously mentioned). So, I have designed some light sources using OSRAM Xenon bulbs and projection lamps, with IR cut filters to reduce heat transmitted to the patient along the fiberoptic light guide. I also have BAs in Photography and Design and membership in the Society of Automotive Engineers. I am new to the flashlight hobby, but not new to the technology. Do you really think that guys who collect flashlights are the only ones that know about light producing technology and photometrics? It's taught in high school photography!

I have to admit, when it came to picking a flashlight for myself, I had an idea of what it was that I wanted ('cause I took high school photography). I knew who to call when I wanted to try one out. 

Anyway, having some knowledge of the subject is a good reason to be flamed, I guess. Having an opinion about a specific flashlight? Man, what fool does that? 

I have no website. I live in Thousand Oaks, CA. That's in the USA, and not China or Nigeria.


----------



## dudemar

GROUP5ENGR said:


> sorry, "bear with". AE Light is the source of the ballasts and lamps. Group 5 is not affiliated with them except as an advisor and supplier.



Sorry Group5 I wasn't trying to direct any offense towards you, I was being critical of SJMorgan's comments. I think it's great you're using AE components.:thumbsup:

No one's flaming you SJMorgan, just being critical for making bold comparisons.

Dudemar


----------



## GROUP5ENGR

BVH said:


> I'm not a real big fan of primary 123s and especially of the requirement of the use of so many of them for an hour+ of run time. Might be interesting to investigate the making of a rechargeable, protected 123 cell pack for your light and modding the tailcap for the use of a charging jack. Maybe both models could be an option?
> 
> (Your first day here and we're already "suggesting" to you how to change your light! We have the nerve!. I guess there's two ways to look at it. As being helpful or "go away kid, you're bothering me!" In any case, this IS going to be a fun thread and investigation.)


 
hi BVH, I don't mind criticism of advise. Just spoke with Mr Ted Bear and we have a shootout scheduled for Sunday. Regarding rechargeable cells, it would require UL listing which is very expensive and a real headache. Maybe in the future.


----------



## MikeLip

GROUP5ENGR said:


> hi BVH, I don't mind criticism of advise. Just spoke with Mr Ted Bear and we have a shootout scheduled for Sunday. Regarding rechargeable cells, it would require UL listing which is very expensive and a real headache. Maybe in the future.



Why would it require UL? Just curious. Seems to me you could simply design around 18650s or something and let the suppliers of the chargers and cells worry about it. No need to incorporate a charger in the light, which would certainly invoke UL if you ran it from the line instead of a wallwart.

I'm looking forward to the shootout!


----------



## SJMorgan

London Lad said:


> The Beast II has a shock isolated lamp mount as well as the rubber bumpers. It also comes with both c123 and rechargeable power packs and can be charged in the field from almost any 12 volt supply.
> 
> It has low level leds and UV leds, its guaranteed for life and can be had for not much more than $3000 if you shop around.
> 
> Oh and its made by Surefire.
> 
> I know which one I would buy, well, DID buy!
> 
> SJM, promote the virtues of your product don't knock the opposition.



Isn't my product. It's Group 5's. 

As I have had a couple of Li battery packs burn, and have worked on some electric vehicles where there are heroic measures being taken to prevent the battery pack from burning up, I am not all that enamored with rechargeable Li batteries for my personal application. Also, the rechargeable packs don't last as long, and I am not usually carrying a 12 volt power supply around to recharge the batteries. 

I prefer disposeables with a long shelf life. Really, I don't care much about rechargeable batteries and their accessories. Sometimes, the stuff is just not practical. 

If I wanted rechargeable batteries, I can put some into the light, and it will work fine. Putting together a recharger for the battery pack is not a difficult proposition. Certainly not one that warrants another $1-2K for the light. 

Lifetime warranties are cool, but all of that stuff that was supposed to last forever? I am on my forth. Does Surefire have a lifetime warranty? Suppose they go under? Impossible? That's what they said about Olds, and Enron. 

I don't need the LED portion of the system. 

I understand the features, and the trick switch, but "features" only turn me on when they make the light work better for my application. LEDs and rechargeable batteries that can't be stored in a hot trunk don't fit the application. 

Comparison seems to be the thing on this site. I was told that the Beast II was the bright light. I found that it isn't. Not even close. As it turns out, lots of lights are brighter. 

Although I like the well made products of Surefire, I really prefer tool room specials. 

I am still amazed by how many guys want to redesign a product that they have not seen. 

I am sure that the shootout will offend just about everyone who doesn't attend. 

Some of you guys need to get a sense of humor. I am not going to put a laugh track in with every post.


----------



## BVH

Group5, I'm really glad you're in for the shootout. I'm really looking forward to seeing your light.

I just talked with Mr. TB. This is just a quick summary and he will post details later. He may scout out the area tomorrow. 

When: This Sunday evening, 7 PM
Where: Sepulveda Pass area. Specific location later

Clear your calendars if you can.


----------



## MikeLip

SJMorgan said:


> Isn't my product. It's Group 5's.
> 
> As I have had a couple of Li battery packs burn, and have worked on some electric vehicles where there are heroic measures being taken to prevent the battery pack from burning up, I am not all that enamored with rechargeable Li batteries for my personal application. Also, the rechargeable packs don't last as long, and I am not usually carrying a 12 volt power supply around to recharge the batteries.



You ain't seen burn until you see a 12V 900F (yes, farad) Ultracap fail. I was involved with a firm out of Los Gatos that was making them. Yeah. Boom.

Your pack doesn't need to be LiIon, NiMH works well as long as you keep it charged.

The suggestion is pout there because the people here, assuming they buy this light (and someone will, if it performs as you say), are going to want to play with it. A lot!  We don't necessarily want to keep Panasonic afloat singlehandedly. I share a liking for primaries, but I get them cheap.




SJMorgan said:


> If I wanted rechargeable batteries, I can put some into the light, and it will work fine. Putting together a recharger for the battery pack is not a difficult proposition. Certainly not one that warrants another $1-2K for the light.



If your charger systems adds $1K to the light, you're doing something badly wrong. But as long as it will take secondaries, good enough.



SJMorgan said:


> Lifetime warranties are cool, but all of that stuff that was supposed to last forever? I am on my forth. Does Surefire have a lifetime warranty? Suppose they go under? Impossible? That's what they said about Olds, and Enron.



SF has been around for quite a while and seems a stable company. But then, I used be an engineer for Westinghouse, and look what happened to them. SF does seem to stay well focused, unlike WECO.

Olds just got sucked into the blob that is GM. How many identical cars can you make, slap different model sticker on them, and keep all the brands viable? SF is a unique entity, not part of a conglomerate.



SJMorgan said:


> I don't need the LED portion of the system.



Yeah you do. You just don't know it yet.  Unless you can stuff a BUNCH of lights under the seat of your 911, you'll want something that can at least not be totally useless when you need a modest amount of light.



SJMorgan said:


> I understand the features, and the trick switch, but "features" only turn me on when they make the light work better for my application. LEDs and rechargeable batteries that can't be stored in a hot trunk don't fit the application.



Not sure Lithium primaries are all that happy being hot either. But what do I know, I'm not a battery engineer.



SJMorgan said:


> Comparison seems to be the thing on this site. I was told that the Beast II was the bright light. I found that it isn't. Not even close. As it turns out, lots of lights are brighter.



We'll soon see!




SJMorgan said:


> Although I like the well made products of Surefire, I really prefer tool room specials.



I've learned that you get what you pay for. That's why I pay for SF. I'm not a SF fanboi (well, maybe a little) but I don;t see anything else in mass production that can touch them. Customs, oh yeah - they can blow SF out of the water. But nothing produced in the thousands and tens of thousands.



SJMorgan said:


> I am still amazed by how many guys want to redesign a product that they have not seen.



You're welcome! We do this for free! You'd have to pay a consultant $150 an hour for this kind of advice, and it would take longer. 

I don't think questions and suggestions constitute redesign.



SJMorgan said:


> I am sure that the shootout will offend just about everyone who doesn't attend.



Doubt it. Some real pics and beam shots are the proof of the pudding. One thing you will find here is that when something is truly awesome, you'll hear about it. I sure hope the G5 light is!


----------



## SJMorgan

Chrysler announced today that it is operationally bankrupt. They even make really nice products, but...We shall see. 

When referring to an extra $1-2K for a rechargeable system, I was referring to competing lights that had both disposables and rechargeables that cost about $1-2K more. NMH batteries don't last very long when compared to the disposables. Li is better, but...I like my light smokin', but not smoking. 

I don't like to leave stuff on the charger permanently, and if I don't use the thing often enough, it is often at a low state of charge. Taking a fresh mag of disposables with a long shelf life is easy. Slam them in and light up the night. Though very cool, its really just another tool. It has to work when I need it. 

I don't have a Porsche. Like I said, I prefer tool room specials. I may bring one to the shoot out. Porsches are like cow boy hats, and hemorrhoids. I drive a very old Lotus (perhaps older than you), and some other cars that you probably never heard of. That's the serious hobby. 

The shootout will be fun. It will be interesting to see all of that lighting tech all in one place.


----------



## MorpheusT1

I thought Li-ions were safer than Lithium Primaries?

:candle:


----------



## tebore

Sounds like an interesting light and I look forward to reading more about it like when the Polarion came out(I just love these compact hand cannons). 

Holy crap though no more out of this SJMorgan guy he fits a troll description to a T. All he does is say how good the new HID is and bashes all the other ones which out using it. Mikelip you're putting him in his place and saying the stuff I'm thinking as I read his replies :thumbsup: but don't get suckered in to feeding his trollism. P.S. I have a Doctorate in quantum physics, a machine that generates power out of nothing and I look like fabio...on the internet. 

Back on topic: I'd like to see it put up against the Polarion and my money's on the Polarion.


----------



## JB

I'm very happy that Group 5 has responded and that a shootout is being planned for Sunday. Although I'm too far away to be there, I'll be anxiously awaiting the results.

I also hope that a meeting of all the flashoholics with Group 5 and SJMorgan will also be positive. Often times words can get a little out of hand on a forum and meeting up in person over some beers (and lights) can put a totally different spin on the personalities.


----------



## djblank87

Man, this thread just keeps getting better and better........:twothumbs

Mr. Good jumped in ~ Check
Mr. TB is involved ~ Check
Shoot Out Location ~ Check
Cameras for beamshots ~ Check

Soon to find out who really is the top dog in the Heavyweight HID category ~ Priceless

For everything else there's...........wait thats a different commerical


----------



## Ken J. Good

BVH, please shoot me an email at:

[email protected] and tell me exactly where and when this "shoot-out" is?

1. I would like to put some faces to names
2. It will be fun
3. I would like to learn something
4. More good images to debate about!

I don't think you can find anyone from Polarion claiming this product line is the "brightest". I will say that pound for pound, size to size, it packs a excellent punch for a commercially available and supported HID product.

I really don't care if there are larger animals in the food chain. If fact, I want smaller animals that can do more.

Best to everybody.


----------



## LuxLuthor

LOL! Yeah it will be nice to see some objective shootout results. Proof is in the pudding as the saying goes. I'm shocked you are all doing this right before Christmas!!! Bravo !


----------



## London Lad

SJMorgan said:


> Isn't my product. It's Group 5's.
> 
> As I have had a couple of Li battery packs burn, and have worked on some electric vehicles where there are heroic measures being taken to prevent the battery pack from burning up, I am not all that enamored with rechargeable Li batteries for my personal application. Also, the rechargeable packs don't last as long, and I am not usually carrying a 12 volt power supply around to recharge the batteries.
> 
> I prefer disposeables with a long shelf life. Really, I don't care much about rechargeable batteries and their accessories. Sometimes, the stuff is just not practical.
> 
> If I wanted rechargeable batteries, I can put some into the light, and it will work fine. Putting together a recharger for the battery pack is not a difficult proposition. Certainly not one that warrants another $1-2K for the light.
> 
> Lifetime warranties are cool, but all of that stuff that was supposed to last forever? I am on my forth. Does Surefire have a lifetime warranty? Suppose they go under? Impossible? That's what they said about Olds, and Enron.
> 
> I don't need the LED portion of the system.
> 
> I understand the features, and the trick switch, but "features" only turn me on when they make the light work better for my application. LEDs and rechargeable batteries that can't be stored in a hot trunk don't fit the application.
> 
> Comparison seems to be the thing on this site. I was told that the Beast II was the bright light. I found that it isn't. Not even close. As it turns out, lots of lights are brighter.
> ..........................................................................



I won't post a long reply as MikeLip has pretty much taken the words out of my mouth. 

You are obviously entitled to prefer / buy whichever light you like, I only compared the features of your light to the Beast as you mentioned the Beast 5 times in your first post.

They would certainly seem to be two very different lights, the Beast is a multi tasking, near indestructible light with a rechargeable option designed for border patrol, SARS etc. Your light, by your description, would seem to be designed as an out and out throw monster.

To me a light of that type is of limited / no practical use. However if it turns out that it throws further than anything else on the planet then it would be desirable to me and others here, as a collectors piece, just for that fact alone.

When I first came here I had modified a few lights and thought it was all about brightness and throw but I now find that out of my 100+ lights, the one I use the most is not that bright and has almost no throw! (Ti Mule)

I am not knocking your light, I haven't even seen one and it may well be a great light, I was just pointing out that your comparison to the Beast had missed a few facts. In reality, apart from the fact that they are HIDs and can be had for about the same price, they would seem to be very different lights.


----------



## PhantomPhoton

Internet forum drama 
There are things I'd like to say but it seems that it will serve no purpose. Besides there are people far more knowledgeable participating in this thread that have it taken care of. Now that sanity may be starting to dominate, I feel like coming out of lurk mode just to say thanks to the members who are keeping the thread positive.

I am glad to see that the shootout is going to happen; best way to get some questions answered imo. It appears that there will be many players in the HID field represented, and the LarryK14. If I didn't have to work, and gas prices weren't so high, I'd start driving down about now to see this just out of pure curiosity and to meet some of the CPFers.

I demand many beamshots!
Thanks and :welcome: GROUP5ENGR.


----------



## BVH

Ken, will do on the email although I think you'll all see a masterful post of the directions to the location by Mr. TB once he does his scouting. (and any other pertinent details) I'm looking forward to a purely positive meeting and shootout. I'm hoping this light is a Hot Performer! It's always good to see HID technology advance, more Lumens out the front end and great form factors.


----------



## MikeLip

PhantomPhoton said:


> Internet forum drama



Isn't it great? Who needs TV?


----------



## MikeLip

tebore said:


> Mikelip you're putting him in his place and saying the stuff I'm thinking as I read his replies



I hope I'm not coming off like I'm beating up on him. I am honestly interested in this light, and while I may be poking him a bit (that's what I do - ask my family), I am not trying to annoy or tick him off.

If I could, I'd attend this shootout. Sounds like a hoot! I'd like to meet both the G5 light champions! They seem like interesting folks.


----------



## tebore

MikeLip said:


> I hope I'm not coming off like I'm beating up on him. I am honestly interested in this light, and while I may be poking him a bit (that's what I do - ask my family), I am not trying to annoy or tick him off.
> 
> If I could, I'd attend this shootout. Sounds like a hoot! I'd like to meet both the G5 light champions! They seem like interesting folks.



Nah you're not beating up on him. More like calling his bluffs and correcting his colorful statements. You're good in my books. He's the one coming off like an e-thug.


----------



## MikeLip

tebore said:


> Nah you're not beating up on him. More like calling his bluffs and correcting his colorful statements. You're good in my books. He's the one coming off like an e-thug.



E-thug? That's a new one for me!


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

For those that can, here is the shootout locatioen:
Between the 10 and 101 Freeways in the Sepulveda Pass
At the TOP of the hill, on the west side of Mountain Gate Golf Course
At the south end of Canyonback Road (which is at the end of Mountaingate Drive)din​

I will be hosting dinner at 5pm Sunday (Location TBD) in Van Nuys, and the shootout is scheduled for 7pm. Please PM me so I can make reservations


----------



## London Lad

Wow,from first post to shoot-out in 2 days !!!


----------



## MikeLip

Woo HOOO! I don't know why, but this is exciting


----------



## djblank87

MikeLip said:


> Woo HOOO! I don't know why, but this is exciting


 
Agreed, man if I did not have to work I would be down there in well lets see.....hhhmmm about four hours. 

This is by far the best thread in a very long time.


----------



## mtbkndad

I should be able to make it to this shootout. 
Thanks for alerting me to this Mr. Ted Bear.
I hope we will not be too visible to the drivers on the 405.
Anybody in the area knows the Sepulvida pass is busy 24 hrs a day. 
Strange lights in the hills that are not routine could potentially be distracting for drivers. 
For those that have never seen some of the lights mentioned in posts above that may be brought , they will light up entire hillsides. 

My concerns would be two fold.

1. Bright lights in this area could precipitate an accident on the 405.
2. Bright glow in the hills could be misinterpreted as the glow of a fire.

Mr Ted Bear mentioned he will try to take a look at the area today so I am just posting these concerns so he can take them into account.

I also hope the location will have a good area to demonstrate the total beam characteristics of the lights in the test.


Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## SJMorgan

MikeLip said:


> I hope I'm not coming off like I'm beating up on him. I am honestly interested in this light, and while I may be poking him a bit (that's what I do - ask my family), I am not trying to annoy or tick him off.
> 
> If I could, I'd attend this shootout. Sounds like a hoot! I'd like to meet both the G5 light champions! They seem like interesting folks.



Actually, it was one of the more intelligent replies in the thread. I do have a sense of humor, and I am not offended by a proper discussion of the product. 

Besides, without me, you guys would have to spend time with your families Sunday evening, watching reruns or bad reality programming, rather than attend an exciting photon confab. 

Best part will be meeting face to face.


----------



## MikeLip

SJMorgan said:


> Besides, without me, you guys would have to spend time with your families Sunday evening, watching reruns or bad reality programming, rather than attend an exciting photon confab.



 Thank heavens for that!

It's a good thing I can't be there. I'd just drool all over everything and make a mess.


----------



## BVH

By the looks of Mr. TB's map, it would appear the location is well off the freeway and probably at the same elevation or lower than the top of the hills at freeway's edge. Hopefully, bright lights won't be an issue. Glad you can make it Mtbkndad.


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

in the hills, lights no problem


----------



## seery

Arghhhh..........cheapest last minute airline ticket I can find is $963.00! :mecry:

PLEASE post some good pics and great stories.


----------



## Ken J. Good

Mr. Ted,

Can you shoot me your cell phone number?
If I get turned around, I want to be able to get vectored in.


----------



## BVH

Looks like if we are able to shoot south, there's about 1.5 miles to the nearest house. West is only 1/3 mile. Might be able to get 2 miles shooting north if it's unobstructed.


----------



## data_lore

Can't wait for these shootout pics, I was almost considering flying over from the Politically Correct UK to get a break from our Government's poxy new bans and rules. Ticket price: $3,500  Oh well


----------



## MikeLip

data_lore said:


> Can't wait for these shootout pics, I was almost considering flying over from the Politically Correct UK to get a break from our Government's poxy new bans and rules. Ticket price: $3,500  Oh well



You're a few grand short on that price, since you HAVE to come back with a super-HID!


----------



## chakrawal

I still can not dicide between The Beast II and Polarion. Now Group 5 so I think after this Sunday I will know which one to buy.


----------



## data_lore

Misery guts!  Oh well, I may invest in that Polarion after all  Not to say who I think will win ..... 



MikeLip said:


> You're a few grand short on that price, since you HAVE to come back with a super-HID!


----------



## Illum

MorpheusT1 said:


> I thought Li-ions were safer than Lithium Primaries?
> 
> :candle:



they both have goods and bads
li-ions present the most hazards during charging, primaries are most hazardous when discharging in banks



tebore said:


> SHoly crap though no more out of this SJMorgan guy he fits a troll description to a T. All he does is say how good the new HID is and bashes all the other ones which out using it. Mikelip you're putting him in his place and saying the stuff I'm thinking as I read his replies :thumbsup: but don't get suckered in to feeding his trollism.



+1, but I can't say for sure unless we know whether or not Morgan here has actually dealt with the beast and other HIDs...

I'm not placing any bets, but if I was, probably on the polarion for brightness, but I'm not losing faith for surefires:thumbsup:
for heaven sakes bring your best cameras!




Looking forward to the performance of all the contestants


----------



## JetskiMark

This should be fun, I'm looking forward to seeing everyone. I will be bringing several of my impractical, self-built, potentially hazardous, short run time, hotwire toys. This will be to get some much needed beam shots and it will be interesting to see how they compare to quality, long run time illumination tools.

Regards,
Mark


----------



## DM51

Extraordinary thread. The shootout should be amazing - I only wish I could be there, and I hope there will be LOTS of great pics posted.


----------



## Taboot

DM51 said:


> Extraordinary thread. The shootout should be amazing - I only wish I could be there, and I hope there will be LOTS of great pics posted.


 
+1 Somehow, this reminds me of a Quentin Tarantino movie or the end of the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. I can't wait to read about it no matter who wins.


----------



## tvodrd

Lessee, after the 50W HID shootout, if Bob could drag along the 60"er, dad a Vss-3A and Mark that little hand-held incan, some folks might get seriously _enlightened!_  

Larry


----------



## LumenHound

What a great thread. The true spirit of CPF really shines here. 
I think it's great that Group 5 will get to meet with some like minded high performance light gurus. Win-win for all of us if you ask me.


----------



## Ken J. Good

Does anybody have a SF Beast that is coming?

I can bring a Hellfighter.


----------



## seery

Ken J. Good said:


> Does anybody have a SF Beast that is coming?
> 
> I can bring a Hellfighter.


If there's a chance Polarion will comp my flight from Michigan, I'll cover the
rental car and hotel and you can count me in with a fully loaded Beast II.


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

Beast


----------



## vee73

JES!
I just order Polarion PH40. I can´t wait...
This place: http://www.knivesandtools.com/de/ct/polarion-hid-lampen.htm
:nana:


----------



## vee73

vee73 said:


> JES!
> I just order Polarion PH40. I can´t wait...
> This place: http://www.knivesandtools.com/de/ct/polarion-hid-lampen.htm
> :nana::sick2:


----------



## Ken J. Good

vee73: Congrats, you will be happy!

seery: Comp you a flight? 

I have to say I applaud your boldness and drive!!! But at this stage of the game I will pass. Next time I will have the Surefire Lear Jet on standby to pick you up....That service does come with the Beast does it not?

I believe if you fill out your warranty and registration card you get 1-years of unlimited service with these guys:
http://www.mpairtravel.com/learjet31a.htm

Seriously, I am probably going to buy a Beast to have in our Booth for SHOT for anybody that wants to do the comparison right there.


----------



## LuxLuthor

JetskiMark said:


> This should be fun, I'm looking forward to seeing everyone. I will be bringing several of my impractical, self-built, potentially hazardous, short run time, hotwire toys. This will be to get some much needed beam shots and it will be interesting to see how they compare to quality, long run time illumination tools.
> 
> Regards,
> Mark



Yeah, bring that hand held model in your sig. Nice to see that against a Larry14K & BarnBurner....then how the 50W stack up.


----------



## mikehill

You guys are totally mad ... but don't let that stop you :devil: Good luck to the winner ! :thumbsup: Wish I could be there


----------



## seery

Mr Ted Bear said:


> Beast


We need someone with a Beast II as well.

From all the beamshots I've seen of the original Beast, the Beast II's beam
is a different animal, at least mine is.



Ken J. Good said:


> Comp you a flight?
> 
> I have to say I applaud your boldness and drive!!! But at this stage of the game I will pass. Next time I will have the Surefire Lear Jet on standby to pick you up....That service does come with the Beast does it not?



Was worth a shot. With a bit more notice, I'd have covered my own flight
costs.

PK offered to have his Pilot fly me both ways but I wouldn't have returned
to Michigan until late Monday evening, not an option this time of year.


----------



## London Lad

I have a beast 2 here in the UK. If anyone wants to comp my flight I'll bring it along. BTW I only travel 1st 

Come to think of it, it would have to be someone with access to a military jet for me to get there on time now :sigh:


----------



## DM51

London Lad said:


> Come to think of it, it would have to be someone with access to a military jet for me to get there on time now :sigh:


Lol, a ride in an SR71 Blackbird would be fun. Mach ~3.5, IIRC. But I think they've taken them out of service now.


----------



## BVH

I'd rather hitch a ride in the as-yet-unnamed Mach 7+ bird.


----------



## mtbkndad

tvodrd said:


> Lessee, after the 50W HID shootout, if Bob could drag along the 60"er, dad a Vss-3A and Mark that little hand-held incan, some folks might get seriously _enlightened!_
> 
> Larry



I may have the VSS-3 in the van like I did at the get together but will decide at the location whether or not it will be practical to set up, more then likely not. After all Mr. Ted Bear said the tower was only 700 yards away and that is barely a warm up distance for a VSS-3  . Plus I want to get photos of all of these lights in action. 

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## matrixshaman

SJMorgan - welcome to CPF - So far I'm only about half way through reading this thread. I'm going to go against some of the big boys here by saying thank you for coming here and presenting this new light. You are in a crowd of heavy hitting flashaholics who are not going to be easy to sway when you jump in with statements like this is the 'brightest flashlight' especially when you are talking to the HID/Maximum light crowd of power mongers here. Hopefully you'll stay around awhile if you are really being straight with the guys here. Just imagine if you stepped into a crowd of Lotus and Lamborghini owners and said I've got this new car I just got that's twice as fast as your best Lamborghini and it can take the corners twice as fast. So far you've stayed professional in your responses to some fairly rough criticism and I respect that. If things check out with this light and it's all you say then I'd say there may be some apologies in order or at least some backpeddling :laughing: I personally have made the assumption you are being honest and are not a troll until proven otherwise. 
I won't go into details but I can understand in light of some recent events why many members here might think you were a troll with your comments about the Surefire Beast. Welcome to the CPF daytime soaps :laughing:


----------



## Illum

I wonder if BVH is coming.....probably be disqualified because his light isn't EDC able but hey
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/170556


----------



## BVH

Yep, I'll be there but without my big rig.


----------



## cmacclel

Ken J. Good said:


> Seriously, I am probably going to buy a Beast to have in our Booth for SHOT for anybody that wants to do the comparison right there.



Last time I checked (1 month ago)the Beasts where B/O for 6 months the Surefire sales rep started laughing. Heck I ordered a Surefire U2 2 months ago and it is still not in. 
Mac


----------



## mtbkndad

I will also have some lowly inexpensive lights too.
N30, AI, Sams, Costco, and new Mega Illuminator.

These lights look like candles compared to JetskiMark creations. However, since they are well known, people that own a N30 or a Costco or a Sam's will have a frame of reference that they are familiar with to relate to these other lights.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## SJMorgan

matrixshaman said:


> SJMorgan - welcome to CPF - So far I'm only about half way through reading this thread. I'm going to go against some of the big boys here by saying thank you for coming here and presenting this new light. You are in a crowd of heavy hitting flashaholics who are not going to be easy to sway when you jump in with statements like this is the 'brightest flashlight' especially when you are talking to the HID/Maximum light crowd of power mongers here. Hopefully you'll stay around awhile if you are really being straight with the guys here. Just imagine if you stepped into a crowd of Lotus and Lamborghini owners and said I've got this new car I just got that's twice as fast as your best Lamborghini and it can take the corners twice as fast. So far you've stayed professional in your responses to some fairly rough criticism and I respect that. If things check out with this light and it's all you say then I'd say there may be some apologies in order or at least some backpeddling :laughing: I personally have made the assumption you are being honest and are not a troll until proven otherwise.
> I won't go into details but I can understand in light of some recent events why many members here might think you were a troll with your comments about the Surefire Beast. Welcome the the CPF daytime soaps :laughing:



Thanks. See you guys tonight. 

As for the car analogy, well, been there and done that with the Noble M400. Had a shoot out (well several, both here and in the UK) and blew the doors off of all of them (Porsche was so pissed that I smoked their V10 Carrera GT, GT2, GT3 and twin turbo, that they didn't give me or the host magazine any test cars for two years). It took two years for the major magazines to test the car, and found that it was as I had said it was. Better than any Ferrari, Porsche Carrera GT, Lamborghini, Lotus, CorvetteZ06 LS7 or Viper. Quicker than all, and better handling than anything but that 250 HP shopping cart and personal favorite minimalist roadster, the Ariel Atom. 

I love to find new stuff, and introduce it around. Generally, the initial response is negative, but that is to be expected. This group was not so bad, really. 

The end result will be a nice evening with a bunch of guys with like interests, and some interesting technology to play with.


----------



## SJMorgan

cmacclel said:


> Last time I checked (1 month ago)the Beasts where B/O for 6 months the Surefire sales rep started laughing. Heck I ordered a Surefire U2 2 months ago and it is still not in.
> Mac



If you really want a Beast II, Martin Retting Guns in Culver City has one in the display case for $3999. They would probably take a reasonable offer.


----------



## data_lore

SJMorgan said:


> As for the car analogy, well, been there and done that with the Noble M400. Had a shoot out (well several, both here and in the UK) and blew the doors off of all of them (Porsche was so pissed that I smoked their V10 Carrera GT, GT2, GT3 and twin turbo, that they didn't give me or the host magazine any test cars for two years). It took two years for the major magazines to test the car, and found that it was as I had said it was. Better than any Ferrari, Porsche Carrera GT, Lamborghini, Lotus, CorvetteZ06 LS7 or Viper. Quicker than all, and better handling than anything but that 250 HP shopping cart and personal favorite minimalist roadster, the Ariel Atom.



Blimey! You sound like someone to add to my contact list?! Have you heard of the Ascari A10? You obviously know what you're talking about, and I'll bet you are a top rate driver too. Given your age, you will have competed in both Formula1 and Nascar and claimed Pole Position in at least 10 races in either case.

You are one sick dude!  Respect! (P.s. please post your real name so we can gloat to other forums that we have a rock superstar in our midst! )


----------



## GROUP5ENGR

hi guys, packed some lights and ready. Looking forward to meeting you all and your tutelage. Hope I don't leave too depressed. Looked at a Beast II today so I could comment. Very nice light, a little different philosphy from mine. See you all at 7:00. Rich


----------



## BVH

Regardless of which lights are brightest, throw the farthest, whatever, it's going to be fun seeing all this cutting edge HID technology performing in one place. I'm not partial to any one brand of light. I tend to like the brightest, furthest throwing light with smallest form factor. That's probably why my pocket-carry light is the Drako.


----------



## seery

cmacclel said:


> Last time I checked (1 month ago)the Beasts where B/O for 6 months the Surefire sales rep started laughing. Heck I ordered a Surefire U2 2 months ago and it is still not in.
> Mac


I waited about 14 months for mine to be delivered. Surefire told me the
Beast II's were built to order.

The current Beast II's are actually 8th GEN Beasts. Even though there has
has only been (outside of the military) the original (limited edition) Beast
and now newest GEN Beast II. Each time Surefire was ready to move the
Beast II into production, technological advances had them putting better
technology into the Beast II while making the decision to keep moving the
release date back.


----------



## DM51

SJMorgan said:


> As for the car analogy, well, been there and done that with the Noble M400. Had a shoot out (well several, both here and in the UK) and blew the doors off of all of them (Porsche was so pissed that I smoked their V10 Carrera GT, GT2, GT3 and twin turbo, that they didn't give me or the host magazine any test cars for two years). It took two years for the major magazines to test the car, and found that it was as I had said it was. Better than any Ferrari, Porsche Carrera GT, Lamborghini, Lotus, CorvetteZ06 LS7 or Viper. Quicker than all, and better handling than anything but that 250 HP shopping cart and personal favorite minimalist roadster, the Ariel Atom.


Are you *THE STIG ???*


----------



## Taboot

DM51 said:


> Are you *THE STIG ???*


 
HAHA! He must be. Let's see how he does in the Chevy Cavalier.


----------



## dudemar

SJMorgan said:


> Thanks. See you guys tonight.
> 
> As for the car analogy, well, been there and done that with the Noble M400. Had a shoot out (well several, both here and in the UK) and blew the doors off of all of them (Porsche was so pissed that I smoked their V10 Carrera GT, GT2, GT3 and twin turbo, that they didn't give me or the host magazine any test cars for two years). It took two years for the major magazines to test the car, and found that it was as I had said it was. Better than any Ferrari, Porsche Carrera GT, Lamborghini, Lotus, CorvetteZ06 LS7 or Viper. Quicker than all, and better handling than anything but that 250 HP shopping cart and personal favorite minimalist roadster, the Ariel Atom.
> 
> I love to find new stuff, and introduce it around. Generally, the initial response is negative, but that is to be expected. This group was not so bad, really.
> 
> The end result will be a nice evening with a bunch of guys with like interests, and some interesting technology to play with.



I don't understand why there are so many car references. I mean if it's true then so be it, I just don't see how it has anything to do with flashlights.

Dudemar


----------



## London Lad

SJMorgan said:


> Thanks. See you guys tonight.
> 
> As for the car analogy, well, been there and done that with the Noble M400. Had a shoot out (well several, both here and in the UK) and blew the doors off of all of them (Porsche was so pissed that I smoked their V10 Carrera GT, GT2, GT3 and twin turbo, that they didn't give me or the host magazine any test cars for two years). It took two years for the major magazines to test the car, and found that it was as I had said it was. Better than any Ferrari, Porsche Carrera GT, Lamborghini, Lotus, CorvetteZ06 LS7 or Viper. Quicker than all, and better handling than anything but that 250 HP shopping cart and personal favorite minimalist roadster, the Ariel Atom.
> 
> I love to find new stuff, and introduce it around. Generally, the initial response is negative, but that is to be expected. This group was not so bad, really.
> 
> The end result will be a nice evening with a bunch of guys with like interests, and some interesting technology to play with.



I have driven a lot of those cars too and I have to say that, just like the beast -v- HB-1 comparison, you are comparing apples with oranges again.

The Nobel is a great car but its a go-cart compared to the sophistication of a Ferrari 599, build quality of a Porsche V10 , style of a Lamborghini or comfort of a CorvetteZ06.


----------



## SJMorgan

data_lore said:


> Blimey! You sound like someone to add to my contact list?! Have you heard of the Ascari A10? You obviously know what you're talking about, and I'll bet you are a top rate driver too. Given your age, you will have competed in both Formula1 and Nascar and claimed Pole Position in at least 10 races in either case.
> 
> You are one sick dude!  Respect! (P.s. please post your real name so we can gloat to other forums that we have a rock superstar in our midst! )



The Lee Noble designed, overpriced, Lola built (well, the chassis anyway), BMW powered Ascari? Nahh, never heard of it ;-). I dislike NASCAR, only held a pole position in an air race (I won). I have driven F1 cars, Trans Am and Porsche Cup cars, however. I will bring a race car tonight. I may freeze my arse off, however. Good thing that my feet are close to the headers.


----------



## SJMorgan

London Lad said:


> I have driven a lot of those cars too and I have to say that, just like the beast -v- HB-1 comparison, you are comparing apples with oranges again.
> 
> The Nobel is a great car but its a go-cart compared to the sophistication of a Ferrari 599, build quality of a Porsche V10 , style of a Lamborghini or comfort of a CorvetteZ06.



Until you drive them back to back. I was once like you, then I "saw the light". Lamborghinis are not that sophisticated, Ferraris are magnificent, but on a real road, they are heavy, and well, porcine (But nowhere near as bad as the cow, er, bull like Lamborghini..., and I find the Z06 a fine car, BUT NOT COMFORTABLE. The Porsche Carrera GT is one of the most dangerous cars that I have ever driven, and that is no compliment. Great pedals, nice shifter, great sound so long as the top is left off. Otherwise, it is really an underdeveloped, underbuilt, overpriced, overweight, ill handling pile of surplus carbon fiber that only has road grip due to the work of a bunch of code writers in a cold, dark room at Porsche. If you want a real Porsche, buy a GT3. 

In comparison, the Noble is simply brilliant. Faster, too, and far better handling than anything you can put a license plate on. It's paint quality beats Ferrari, its body panel fit is miles better than the Carrera GT, and it's about a nearly a ton lighter than the lightest Lamborghini. Far easier to maintain as well. Go Kart? Hardly, as the car has a very compliant ride, and doesn't beat up its driver. Oh, and it drives rings around the Elise. 

Lots of writers pigeonholed the Noble, until they actually drove the thing. 

It's easy to have opinions if you have not owned the cars, or spend weeks or months with them to learn what they are really about. You don't get that with a single pass down an unfamiliar road, or a couple of miles of bypass and a couple of ramps. Not apples or oranges, but high performance sports cars. All the same to me.

The true identity of the STIG is actually an industry secret. I do know what teams that the Stig has driven for (I actually know who he is, but,that's a secret), but lately, there have been stand ins, mostly talented Brit club racers. 

Anyway, back to the lights.


----------



## Illum

interesting, thanks for the info Seery
so if we wait long enough assuming the price of the beast II remains unchanged, there will be a day where Surefire is selling a light cheaper for what its worth :naughty: :naughty: :naughty:


----------



## matrixshaman

- didn't anyone take a live video feed so we can watch this shootout live?? :laughing: 
They must be having fun but how about some pics or at least reports for us further east as it's already past 10 PM here :sigh: 
I know you California guys at least have web phones and Blackberry's so give us something ehhh?


----------



## chakrawal

matrixshaman said:


> - didn't anyone take a live video feed so we can watch this shootout live?? :laughing:
> They must be having fun but how about some pics or at least reports for us further east as it's already past 10 PM here :sigh:
> I know you California guys at least have web phones and Blackberry's so give us something ehhh?


I'm also waiting out here on the other side of the globe.:twothumbs


----------



## matrixshaman

LOL - thought I might be the only one waiting around as I don't have any TV set up now after just moving. So tonight it's only "CPF Soaps and Reviews" here on the 'I' channel


----------



## Mr Ted Bear




----------



## cmacclel

Jeff you *TEASE*! Just give us the summary how did the new guy on the block compare to the old timers 

Mac


----------



## TOOCOOL

come on I'm running out of popcorn


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

brighter than the Beast? yes. brightess of all ? no


----------



## matrixshaman

Looks like you really had some heavy hitters there. Img_0142 looks like a winner but I'm guessing that's something like maybe that 600 watt aircraft light IIRC somebody put into a searchlight case. BTW :thanks: for staying up to post these pics. I didn't really expect pics tonight - maybe just a quick rundown on how things went.
Just noticed what looked like an old RayOvac bullet in there ? LOL - was that really in the test (maybe the last pic) or is it a sleeper with some mega-throw setup in it?


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

here is the "zoom" set


----------



## SJMorgan

Not too cold, not too windy. Lots of very cool lights. Excellent company. 

A fine time was had by all. I really need one of those tank search lights.


----------



## Ken J. Good

All,

It was great meeting everybody. This area has lots of great possibilities for some HID photography. It's a couple of hours away, but I am going to plan to make a night of it.

I must say, very organized, OBVIOUSLY done this before. Multiple cameras, digital voice recorders, custom table tops for lights. In, out, done. Nice job guys. 

The water tower and the trees in the far end of the image are 327 Yards away from the lights if my memory serves me right. 

A wide assortment of approaches with respect to form factor as seen in the back of the pickup truck.

Personally I would have like to seen a more systematic layout, but that is just me. It's not everyday you get this size of a pile of HID lights in one place.
Reflector size, overall size, weight, battery source, runtime, waterproof or not, build quality, price point all play into the equation. A few of this lights are exceptionally bright, but I think one of them runs for 6 minutes? Not sure it should be directly compared with the others in a shootout. But they serve as a reference point.

Maybe the way to do this might be to put the custom hot rods in one set of images and the commercial grades in another.....Who knows?

On an unrelated note, I remember first seeing the beast and thinking, "this thing is huge!"....Now it looks perfectly "normal" - Especially after seeing the "Tank Light".
In fact, I might try putting one on keychain at this point!

It was a bit too windy to really get a good "scenic" image, but this is just right down the road from where the "shoot-out" was. 






Mr. Ted Bear, BVD, Mtbkndad, JetSkiMark, SJMorgan, thank you for taking the time this evening to make this happen.

Everybody have a great Christmas.


----------



## djblank87

Wow, thanks to all of the Members of this place for putting that toghter so quick and allowing everyone to show off there lights and see also who the knew kid on the block is.

You guys are great and thanks again for taking the time to post up the results for us on lookers.


----------



## larryk

Thanks to all involved for another great shoot-out.


----------



## LuxLuthor

Looks like all the bases got covered. Hard to read the descriptions on the small single compilation image. Doesn't appear to be any surprise results...was Jetski's custom on of those? I'm guessing it was the brightest one?

Thanks for doing the shootout to everyone.


----------



## mtbkndad

It will be a few days before I have a chance to post my traditional behind the lights shots. The Blitz mod will out throw the Larry K/Sleeper, but the LarryK/Sleeper puts much more light into the spill portion of the beam and has a more even distribution of light from spill to corona to hotspot.
At the end of the shoot we even put up some well known LED's and shot their beams using the spotlight settings on my camera. This way people who do not own any spotlights but do own similar LED lights will have a point of reference.
When considering total light output the Volcano, Larry K, and N30 had the widest spill of all of the lights. The spill of the Larry K/Sleeper is significantly wider and brighter then the spill of the Blitz mod.

There was no Costco light at the Shootout. I brought one, but we had to hike a ways so I left it. The light in the photos was the 4200K Mega HID or whatever Matt will call it, that BatteryJunction will soon be selling. It is an improved Costco/HarborFreight HiD.

The HB 1 & HB 2 do seem to put out more light then the Beast, but it was not overwhelming at all.
The HB 1 has a brighter and wider flood then the Beast. The HB 2 has a tighter and brighter hotspot then the Beast. I was actually surprised at the size of the HB 1 & 2. They are nice looking, but bigger then I thought they would be.

I also did a couple shots at the street where we parked comparing the Blitz mod, BVH's 300 watt Blackhawk locator HID, a Mac Torch, and the VSS-3 I brought. 

I must say a special thanks to Mr. Ted Bear for working so hard to put this together so fast and to Ken J. Good for driving all of the way up from the San Diego area with the Polarion lights.

The Group 5 guys were very nice.
Have a great Christmas everybody. I will probably work on my photos right after Christmas.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave: :sleepy:


----------



## daveman

I guess the Group5 guys weren't kidding; their lights are serious contenders and are brighter than the beast.


----------



## daveman

mtbkndad said:


> ...When considering total light output the Volcano, Larry K, and N30 had the widest spill of all of the lights. The spill of the Larry K/Sleeper is significantly wider and brighter then the spill of the Blitz...


I noticed the N30 seemed overall brighter than the X1 and the P2 when the its WIDE spill was taken into consideration as well, but judging from a quick glance, the N30 definitely seemed a little dimmer than the other 2 primarily because of its smaller spot/corona. I understand the wide spill of the N30 was a designed characteristic of the beam, but I think that most people would use a HID outdoors and, being outdoors, a larger and brighter spot/corona would be more useful than a wider and brighter spill, which would be advantageous in enclosed quarters.


----------



## London Lad

SJMorgan said:


> ................................
> 
> It's easy to have opinions if you have not owned the cars, or spend weeks or months with them to learn what they are really about. You don't get that with a single pass down an unfamiliar road, or a couple of miles of bypass and a couple of ramps............................




* I have owned a number of the cars you mentioned and living in Monaco I get the chance to drive a lot of exotica on a pretty regular basis.*




SJMorgan said:


> ................................
> 
> Not apples or oranges, but high performance sports cars. All the same to me.................................................................................................................



* By that reasoning you would say that a formula one car is the best car and and an anti-aircraft searchlight is the best flash light! Both extremely good at one thing but neither are much good in the real world.

Anyway I think we will have to agree to differ on how to compare and what constitutes 'best' when it comes to flash lights and cars 

Thanks for attending / organizing the shoot-out, very interesting.*


----------



## PhantomPhoton

Well there is definitely an N30 in my future. I'm sold on it now.
The Volcano is sweet of course.
I think I'd buy a Polaron if I had the $$$. Maybe I'll start saving up a Polaron Fund.
The Beast seems to lie in between the Group 5 HB1 and the Group 5 HB2 in beam distribution. Hard to tell what is "brighter" from those small pics.

Thanks for the initial pics. I'll watch for more to come over the next week.


----------



## BVH

Thank you Mr. TB for your masterful job last night and getting the shoot organized so quickly. Thank you to Rich for being there, showing your excellent products and for helping "push" HID technology forward. Thank you Mtbkndad for your shots yet to be posted. Thank you, Ken for bringing Polarion to the shoot! It's great to put faces with posts! The LarryK14 is the 5-6 minute run-time light which is not practical at all but it's a lot of fun to use in short bursts and does it put out some serious heat! I'd agree with Mtbkndad, I think it puts out more overall and smooth transitioned light vrs the Blitz mod but the Blitz has one heck of a hot spot at great distances. Its a very clean design, easy to hold and use light. Mark, you might have one or two of us knocking at your door for one of these. I forgot to ask about runtime and how long of bursts can you do without reflector damage? Your Volcano is a Great little sleeper!!


----------



## tvodrd

Eenteresting! My eyes/monitor could use some recalibration, so I brightened up the first one:






Larry


----------



## picard

where can I buy this HID light? Anyone got the link? please post the link


----------



## TOOCOOL

picard said:


> where can I buy this HID light? Anyone got the link? please post the link



Err which one :thinking:


----------



## cmacclel

Awesome as Usual :thumbsup:


Some Days I wish I lived on the West Coast  You guys have all the fun!

The HB Lights look alot larger than I thought they would. Do the HB Lights have a Smooth or Textured reflectors?

The HB Lights looked on par with some of the lights in the shoot out :thumbsup: Now if HB could offer a group buy at a comparable price to the other units tested.


Mac


----------



## slo-ryd

All of the lights are very impressive, thanks for getting them all together!
Polarian makes some nice designs, very slick form factor. That N30 is much smaller than I was able to discern from other pictures.... hmm maybe first of the year I can free up some funds.....


----------



## matrixshaman

LuxLuthor said:


> Looks like all the bases got covered. Hard to read the descriptions on the small single compilation image. Doesn't appear to be any surprise results...was Jetski's custom on of those? I'm guessing it was the brightest one?
> 
> Thanks for doing the shootout to everyone.



Yes Jetskimark's light is the Blitz and was one of the 2 brightest from what I can see - a bit of a tossup between that and LarryK depending on spill and throw weighting. 

I still want to know what the 2 old RayOVac lights are in the lower left pic on the truck bed (a RayOVac Bullet and the standard). :thinking:
Thanks again to all who contributed to this fascinating shootout.


----------



## LuxLuthor

If you guys get a chance to label the lights in the flatbed, that would be nice, since some of them are not obvious to many of us.


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

Here's a redo of everything


----------



## mtbkndad

daveman said:


> I noticed the N30 seemed overall brighter than the X1 and the P2 when the its WIDE spill was taken into consideration as well, but judging from a quick glance, the N30 definitely seemed a little dimmer than the other 2 primarily because of its smaller spot/corona. I understand the wide spill of the N30 was a designed characteristic of the beam, but I think that most people would use a HID outdoors and, being outdoors, a larger and brighter spot/corona would be more useful than a wider and brighter spill, which would be advantageous in enclosed quarters.



The X1 and P2 will handily out throw the N30.
They are designed to put lots of light down field and do just that.
I was merely reporting the different characteristics of the different lights.
Also remember the N30 was the only 30 watt light of the group.
It should be the dimmest light out there  .
The 327 yard distance was chosen so that the lower powered lights would be at the fringe of their capabilities and the higher powered lights would not have hot spots that are totally over exposed.

Regarding the usefulness of the bright spill, my N30's get used outdoors more then any of my other HID lights because of their wide bright spill. If I know I will need to illuminate something over 300 yards I grab my X1, if I know I will need to illuminate something around 400 yards I will grab my AI, if I know I will need to illuminate something 500 yards away I will grab my Amondotech Mega HID, If I need bright light beyond 600 or 700 yards, or over a mile away for that matter, I will set up the VSS-3.
 . 
Most of the time I need a bright light within 150-300 yard range and the N30 handles that quite well. I also use the N30 for the thankless jobs that will likely get a light dropped or put down on concrete or asphalt or dirt.
My X1 is absolutely beautiful and I plan to keep it that way   .
I have had several people, who own multiple HID's, say that they have found they use the N30 the most because
1. It is bright enough for most tasks.
2. It is so inexpensive, they wont be heart broken if it breaks or gets lost or stolen, etc..


Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## BVH

Somehow, my gray, Harbor Freight hosted LarryK14 (used in the shoot) got left out of the group pic. You can see Mark's orange LarryK14 in the group photo. It looks just like Lux's on this thread, Post 89

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/135194&highlight=larryk14&page=2

It looks to me like Mark's Blitz puts more light downfield whereas the LarryK puts more upfield.


----------



## MikeLip

Wow! Looks to me like I need a second job so I can buy one of those super flamethrowers! I wonder if WalMart needs a greeter? 

Great job everyone! Thanks! It was fun just watching this whole thing come together.


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

matrixshaman said:


> .. I still want to know what the 2 old RayOVac lights are in the lower left pic on the truck bed (a RayOVac Bullet and the standard). :thinking:



These were JetSkiMark's creations. The Eveready had an ROP(?) something, and the vintage RayOVac bullet had transplanted innerds from TaskForce 2C / Lowes


----------



## SJMorgan

London Lad said:


> * I have owned a number of the cars you mentioned and living in Monaco I get the chance to drive a lot of exotica on a pretty regular basis.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * By that reasoning you would say that a formula one car is the best car and and an anti-aircraft searchlight is the best flash light! Both extremely good at one thing but neither are much good in the real world.
> 
> Anyway I think we will have to agree to differ on how to compare and what constitutes 'best' when it comes to flash lights and cars
> 
> Thanks for attending / organizing the shoot-out, very interesting.*



It was a lot of fun, and quite an education, especially when it comes to "hot rod" flashlights. It was quite well organized, and the results are pretty easy to read. Now I need one of those little lights like Mr Ted Bear had around his neck, (before I go to Daytona for the 24 hr), and one of those cool tank lights. 

As for my taste in sports cars, I go for the "less is more" approach. I prefer that the handling be sorted the old fashion way, using development and and superior kinematics, rather than the technology of a computer and a code writer. Many of your favorite cars are not really drivable without some level of stability program intervention. I don't need 13 levels of ESP adjustment, or automatically adjusted dampers. What I do need is extraordinary feel, plenty of power, a great gearbox that shifts quickly, grip, response and balance. The Noble is perfect in each of those important areas. If you thought that the Noble was a little stark (too F40 for you?), the Rossion, with its leather interior and up to date dash should change your mind. 

This is not to say that I don't like Ferraris, Porsches or even Lamborghinis. I like them quite a bit, in fact. But for the morning carving of the canyons (It's a lot like Corsica here above Malibu), I much prefer the M400 My R5 Turbo Renault, or the Lotus XI. A little more visceral, direct, and a whole lot more fun. Now if those Lamborghinis and F430s would get out of my way, life would be beyond perfect. 

BTW, My experience tells me that an F1 is the best track car (I have many hours in a '92 Benetton and an Arrows), and that the Tank Light is certainly the best flash light of all. I guess it depends on your real world. I put 19,000 miles on the M400 without a single issue, in a 9 month period. Lots of long trips, and lots of magazine testing. It works great in my real world, and the 4 oil changes (no repairs) cost a total of $240. I believe that my buddy's F430 costs around $3000 for each service. He now drives a Noble M400, and leaves the Ferrari parked most of the time. 

Man, I NEED a tank light.


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

*"HID Killer Class"*

Sleeper vs Blitz

Sleeper blew the doors of the Blitz on the line, but the Blitz won out in the end


----------



## JetskiMark

An appreciative thank you goes out to:

SJMorgan for his original post that started everything.

GROUP5ENGR for creating the lights that prompted SJMorgan to post.

Mr. Ted Bear for organizing and pulling this off so quickly and for his photographic skills plus the time required to edit and post the results. Also for bringing the Barn Burner that I have admired for a long time.

Ken J. Good for making the long trek and proudly representing Polarion.

Mtbkndad for his photography and for bringing a LOT of lights including the always amazing VSS-3.

BVH for bringing his awesome 300 watt HID “Locator” that I had been wanting to see in person since he first announced it. 

Everybody for all of the interesting conversation.


I brought my impractical homemade hotwire toys along just to get some beamshots and to see how they compare to the high-end HID illumination tools. I just wanted to show what a flashaholic could accomplish with a little time spent at the work bench.

Regards,
Mark


----------



## ez78

Great pictures, thanks. :thumbsup:

That lava landing has great disguise for such powerfull light.


----------



## cmacclel

Maybe we should stick to talk about lights..... 

The talk about the "Less is more" Approach on a $100k Noble M400 is making my stomach turn. That's my base salary for over 2 years.

Mac


----------



## MikeLip

cmacclel said:


> Maybe we should stick to talk about lights.....
> 
> The talk about the "Less is more" Approach on a $100k Noble M400 is making my stomach turn. That's my base salary for over 2 years.
> 
> Mac



You can join me at my new "WalMart Greeter" second job!


----------



## London Lad

cmacclel said:


> Maybe we should stick to talk about lights.....
> 
> ............................................



Agreed


----------



## BVH

At my "second job" I get to shine a big bright light in the sky. Don't be too envious! :nana:


----------



## JetskiMark

matrixshaman said:


> I still want to know what the 2 old RayOVac lights are in the lower left pic on the truck bed (a RayOVac Bullet and the standard). :thinking:









I will elaborate on what Mr. Ted Bear already stated.

The one on the left is a 1930s Rayovac 2 C cell with the Cree slug and optics from the New Lowes Task Force 3W Cree (White Star).

The other is a 1960s Eveready Captain 2 C cell with an ROP HOLA running on 2 of AW's protected LiIon C cells. I also did the low resistance tail spring mod. I compared this light to a Mag ROP at the last get-together and the output was similar with the slight advantage going to the Mag with it's half inch larger reflector.

It will be interesting to see the beam shots when they are posted.

Regards,
Mark


----------



## mtbkndad

I have to say that Mark's vintage Volcano mod and two vintage flashlight mods were three of my favorite lights and the event. I love the look and feel of these old lights. With modern output they are simply amazing. 
Mark keep up the great work :bow: :bow: :bow: . I am seriously going to be hunting down some vintage lights now.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## JetskiMark

Mr Ted Bear said:


> *"HID Killer Class"*
> 
> Sleeper vs Blitz
> 
> Sleeper blew the doors of the Blitz on the line, but the Blitz won out in the end



Thank you for the nice comparison photo. It's interesting how the Q4559X sealed beam in the Sleeper/LarryK14 is such an excellent flood light with good throw at the same time. The 64663 in the Blitz is an outstanding thrower with good spill simultaneously. The 327 yard distance was too close for the Ultra Blitz to really shine (pun intended).

My Ultra Blitz has a calculated run time of about 20 minutes. I only run mine for short bursts up to about 30 seconds, but Queenslander claims to have run his for 5 to 10 minutes without melting anything. His thread was the inspiration for my build.

Regards,
Mark


----------



## ShortArc

SJMorgan said:


> Not too cold, not too windy. Lots of very cool lights. Excellent company.
> 
> A fine time was had by all. I really need one of those tank search lights.


 
But where will you put that VSS-3A Tank Searchlight. Is the seat next to you big enough?  (Maybe you should consider the AN/VSS-1 instead)

Great Job everyone...certainly made my Christmas!
Cheers!
Willem.


----------



## BVH

Hmmm.....I just happen to have a VSS-1 for sale - funny you should mention that!


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

At intermediate distances, the Group5 HB1 looks preety good






but a great early performance was at the expense of a good finish. You can see that the HB2 with its larger reflcetor could not match the Helios. And the HB1 lost out to the N30. 




.


----------



## GROUP5ENGR

A "thank you" to all you guys at the shootout. I learned a lot! Enjoyed meeting you all. Rich, Group 5


----------



## tvodrd

At this point, I regret not having burned half a tank of gas! Glad you drug the -3A out, dad! ("Shock and awe!"  ) 

(See a bunch of ya at SHOT.) 

Larry


----------



## LuxLuthor

Thanks very much for the larger titles, I did have some confused. This was actually a very nice shootout. Honestly, I didn't think the GE5 models would have done as well as they did. 

Shootout reinforces the value of many of the lower priced HID's, especially the BB at our group buy price of $750-850 as well as incan Larry14K & Mark's tremendous custom Blitz.

Thanks for everyone's time, pictures, lights, and contributions. This is what makes this forum so great.


----------



## SJMorgan

ShortArc said:


> But where will you put that VSS-3A Tank Searchlight. Is the seat next to you big enough?  (Maybe you should consider the AN/VSS-1 instead)
> 
> Great Job everyone...certainly made my Christmas!
> Cheers!
> Willem.



On top of my house. I want to bug the neighbors on top of the hill.


----------



## BVH

Gee, you REALLY DO need to buy my little tank light! It will definitely accomplish your mission.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/175524

(Sorry for the sales plug)


----------



## Taboot

LuxLuthor said:


> Honestly, I didn't think the GE5 models would have done as well as they did. quote]
> 
> +1
> I didn't either. Particularly, I thought the Polarion lights would trounce the G5E lights. To my eye, from the pictures, this certainly did not happen.
> 
> Very cool shootout.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T


----------



## Patriot

What a tremendous amount of work you guys did! I mean, I know you were having fun and all but I personally feel spoiled sitting here looking at the comparisons. Thank you for everything, you guys. 
:thanks:


Mr. TB, you pointed out that the HB2 was throwing much better than the Beast but isn't the HB1 the closer configuration to the Beast? When comparing the Beast to the HB1 the two are much closer with a slight margin going to the beast.


In all of the other comparisons I've never really noticed any difference between the X1 and the Helios. This time around I can actually see that the Helios is indeed brighter, unless my mind is being very creative tonight...


----------



## matrixshaman

Mr Ted Bear said:


> These were JetSkiMark's creations. The Eveready had an ROP(?) something, and the vintage RayOVac bullet had transplanted innerds from TaskForce 2C / Lowes



Thanks - interesting sleepers. I just sold a like new RayOVac Bullet a few months ago - looked almost like it had never been used. I would have like to have kept it to make a real sleeper but needed the $ at the time.


----------



## john2551

Well after digesting all 160 posts just now (sorry been busy with holiday stuff this week) it seems to me the the brightest & also the smallest, most compact sized light of the group is the Helios. Am i correct in my conclusion? The HB-1 is also compact in size (similar in size to the AE brand) but the Helios seems to have a slight edge in brightness over it.


----------



## seery

*Production Class*

IMO the HB-1 and the Beast have the nicest overall beam. Wish we could have
gotten a Beast II to the shoot-out, it's beam is a different animal than the original
Beast that was tested.

Group 5 - Assuming your build quality is on par. Add LED's, offer both a primary
and a Li-Ion handle, shorten the OAL length, and put some bumpers on it and it will
be one sweet package. Seems to be a really nice light, looking forward to watching
the HB series evolve. 

Great job guys. Thanks for doing this and sharing it with all of us.


----------



## Ken J. Good

john2551:

In my totally biased opinion, the Polarion packs a huge punch in a small, waterproof (I would be willing to bet just about every other light was not), package.

Again, I would have like to have seen the layout on the ground/back-of-truck with respect to all the lights a bit more thought out.

Also, I would have like to see all the lights hit another tower that was about 350-400 yards away with a dark mountain background. You could have seen the longer range patterns better in terms of total lateral coverage.

The images on the road image don't tell the whole story.

Maybe next time? I am willing to travel to get these on film.

Seery: I would like to do a Beast, Beast II and Polarion comparison. Looking to get my hands on a Beast II (I have been loaned a Beast).
What are we going to do here? Me come to you, meet in the middle, you come to me in San Diego?


----------



## GhostReaction

I am with you. It does seem that the helios pack quite a punch in a smaller package. 
Group 5 lights are not too shabby as a newcomer  not bad at all

Kudos to all you gentlements who made the shootout possible!





john2551 said:


> Well after digesting all 160 posts just now (sorry been busy with holiday stuff this week) it seems to me the the brightest & also the smallest, most compact sized light of the group is the Helios. Am i correct in my conclusion? The HB-1 is also compact in size (similar in size to the AE brand) but the Helios seems to have a slight edge in brightness over it.


----------



## john2551

Ken,

You're right, it would have been nice to line the lights up from smallest to largest in order to see the difference in sizes. I like many others are not after the "brightest light in the world". My preference is "the brightest i can get in the smallest size available" for which i think the Helios fits in that category.


----------



## GROUP5ENGR

seery said:


> *Production Class*
> 
> IMO the HB-1 and the Beast have the nicest overall beam. Wish we could have
> gotten a Beast II to the shoot-out, it's beam is a different animal than the original
> Beast that was tested.
> 
> Group 5 - Assuming your build quality is on par. Add LED's, offer both a primary
> and a Li-Ion handle, shorten the OAL length, and put some bumpers on it and it will
> be one sweet package. Seems to be a really nice light, looking forward to watching
> the HB series evolve.
> 
> Great job guys. Thanks for doing this and sharing it with all of us.


Thanks for the suggestions. A few are a difficult for a company without the deep pockets of Surefire. What might give me a small edge is my ballast can run on 32 or 50W. The switch to allow the user to choose will be a little tricky. The advantages are obvious. Any advice would be appreciated. Rich, Group 5


----------



## HIDSGT

Its useless without a rechargeable battery. Website is awful! How about some specs on the light from the manufactor. Not impressed.


----------



## seery

Ken J. Good said:


> Seery: I would like to do a Beast, Beast II and Polarion comparison. Looking to get my hands on a Beast II (I have been loaned a Beast).
> What are we going to do here? Me come to you, meet in the middle, you come to me in San Diego?


Let's toss around the three options and decide which is best to make
this happen. I'll PM you in a day or two with some thoughts from this
end. Thanks Ken and talk soon.


----------



## Patriot

GROUP5ENGR said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. A few are a difficult for a company without the deep pockets of Surefire. What might give me a small edge is my ballast can run on 32 or 50W. The switch to allow the user to choose will be a little tricky. The advantages are obvious. Any advice would be appreciated. Rich, Group 5



That might help this light because then it would have something that the others don't have. I really like the HB2 because of its throw, but honestly it's not so much better than the Helios to justify the extra cost, weight, lack of waterproofing, and non-rechargability. The biggest negative mark for me, and I hope I don't sound like a broken record but it's not rechargeable. I'd say make it rechargeable and investigate the 32-50W switching and it would be more attractive to a few people. 

In any case, it performed very well and I'm impressed with its output if not for some of it's other features or lack thereof. Thanks for demonstrating it to us.


----------



## Ken J. Good

Playing around with some software getting ready for SHOT Show and I put together a Polarion images compilation video:

http://polarion-usa.com/videos/Polarion-HID-Video.html

This has some back-to-back images that give you a pretty decent idea what HID's of this caliber can put out.

As far as the Group 5 light, I'm glad I had the opportunity to see and handle the light personally and make my own assessment. Real innovation is about going out there an putting your best foot forward. Sometimes you get knocked back into reality. It's not easy. 

I wish them the best in the future.


----------



## ShortArc

GROUP5ENGR said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. A few are a difficult for a company without the deep pockets of Surefire. What might give me a small edge is my ballast can run on 32 or 50W. The switch to allow the user to choose will be a little tricky. The advantages are obvious. Any advice would be appreciated. Rich, Group 5


 
I think you guys did a great job with both lights. I know how difficult it is to pull together a complete product.
Keep in mind the other advantage you have over the Surefire Beast II, is the lead time (almost a year). 
I would however really consider a rechargeable option.
Regards.


----------



## djblank87

Ken that is a nice video with good shots that give you a side by side so to speak comparison. I really like the the way the Polarion's are laid out/designed.


----------



## Flashanator

Just got up too speed on this thread, I'm dam slow somtimes.


Saw all the pics, :goodjob::goodjob::goodjob::goodjob:


Just drooling over the LarryK & Ken5 :bow::bow::bow:

didnt see the locator tho? Also I would have liked to see the BB with diffuser lens. nvm.


awsome stuff.

Later.


----------



## BVH

Ah.....the Locator weighs 28 lbs and two SLA's, well....too much! We had to walk uphill about a quarter mile so the Locator got left behind. Mtbkndad took some close-up beam shots - maybe 50 to 75 yards? back at the car with the Locator, Mark's Blitz and his VSS-3a. He'll probably post them when he posts his shootout pics. One of these days, I'll get some long-range shots. Maybe at the next shootout or the early March SoCal get together.


----------



## windstrings

MikeLip said:


> But it's always fun to see how these dream lights perform against each other and do the "if I win the lottery" thing.
> So bring it on!



When I buy I try to imagine everything was free and there is no "status" in owning something expensive or something no one else can get.

Once thats established... based on everything out there.. do I even "want" the light or would another really suit my needs better?

Once thats established, then price comes to play .

I really don't see the big deal with some of these lights that cost thousands.. the profit margin must be on the order of rape and pillage!

Everything I see that can outdo the Xeray is either enormously heavy to be pulled behind a truck or expensive... But its pretty sad when some lights cost 5 times "and more" without even offering more lumens... just whats all that money going for????
I still stand by my BB!

There are some much cheaper lights that go a long way for the buck that cost less than 200.00 too....The N30 immediately comes to mind!

Some things we buy are merely a fashion or status symbol and have little real value in the common sense of things.

But if someone really wants to spend 5K for a light and be even brighter than those other expensive lights.. I suppose I could part with my BarnBurner for a 5K offer! LOL!
Heck.. I'll even give a new year special.. only 4K! :thumbsup:


----------



## mtbkndad

BVH said:


> Ah.....the Locator weighs 28 lbs and two SLA's, well....too much! We had to walk uphill about a quarter mile so the Locator got left behind. Mtbkndad took some close-up beam shots - maybe 50 to 75 yards? back at the car with the Locator, Mark's Blitz and his VSS-3a. He'll probably post them when he posts his shootout pics. One of these days, I'll get some long-range shots. Maybe at the next shootout or the early March SoCal get together.



I will be posting all of my photos soon.
However unlike Mr Ted Bear I don't use two cameras and don't have software that will group the photos. 
As a result every photo has to be cropped for the close ups.
This has been done and all 50+ photos have to be exported to a file as jpg's and then uploaded to Photobucket before I can post them.
Because of where I shoot from, it will be worth the wait. These will not just be more of the same thing.

I think that target the locator lite, Mark's HyperBlitz(as I call it), the Mac Torch, and the Tank light were focused on was only around 100 yards away max, but the photos will serve to compare these very different lights.

I will also post the photos of the LED's

Regarding the shoot, the aiming of the X1 was all wrong.
Two photos were taken. In the first the X1 moved and painted the picture real bright with light.
The second photo has the X1 focused too high and too far to the right.
I will explain all of this in detail when I post.
For now understand that the ground and the tree are darker then they would have been if the X1 was aimed properly.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## daveman

windstrings said:


> When I buy I try to imagine everything was free and there is no "status" in owning something expensive or something no one else can get.
> 
> Once thats established... based on everything out there.. do I even "want" the light or would another really suit my needs better?
> 
> Once thats established, then price comes to play .
> 
> I really don't see the big deal with some of these lights that cost thousands.. the profit margin must be on the order of rape and pillage!
> 
> Everything I see that can outdo the Xeray is either enormously heavy to be pulled behind a truck or expensive... But its pretty sad when some lights cost 5 times "and more" without even offering more lumens... just whats all that money going for????
> I still stand by my BB!
> 
> There are some much cheaper lights that go a long way for the buck that cost less than 200.00 too....The N30 immediately comes to mind!
> 
> Some things we buy are merely a fashion or status symbol and have little real value in the common sense of things.
> 
> But if someone really wants to spend 5K for a light and be even brighter than those other expensive lights.. I suppose I could part with my BarnBurner for a 5K offer! LOL!
> Heck.. I'll even give a new year special.. only 4K! :thumbsup:


I feel the same, but I didn't see the need to post it here in this thread...can of worms...


----------



## HIDSGT

Ken J. Good said:


> Playing around with some software getting ready for SHOT Show and I put together a Polarion images compilation video:
> 
> http://polarion-usa.com/videos/Polarion-HID-Video.html
> 
> This has some back-to-back images that give you a pretty decent idea what HID's of this caliber can put out.
> 
> As far as the Group 5 light, I'm glad I had the opportunity to see and handle the light personally and make my own assessment. Real innovation is about going out there an putting your best foot forward. Sometimes you get knocked back into reality. It's not easy.
> 
> I wish them the best in the future.


 
Great job on the video Ken. Id still like to see the non-handle version in ur hand to get a better idea of its size. Its tough to determine if it would be too big for daily use. Ive seen plenty of pics of how powerful it is and there is no doubt how impressive it is. Im sure many others have the same question. So when you find some time could you add it to your video or post something on YouTube of the light in your hand and you turning it on? Thanx....

Brett


----------



## LuxLuthor

GROUP5ENGR said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. A few are a difficult for a company without the deep pockets of Surefire. What might give me a small edge is my ballast can run on 32 or 50W. The switch to allow the user to choose will be a little tricky. The advantages are obvious. Any advice would be appreciated. Rich, Group 5



Honestly, I think you should be very proud of your products. 

Your lights started out "in a hole" because of the unnecessarily antagonistic tone used early in this topic presenting your models as superior to the competition, and statements such as lighting up the side of a building during daylight.

I agree that having a rechargeable solution & switchable ballast output would go a long way towards improving your product outlook. Good Luck!


----------



## chakrawal

LuxLuthor said:


> Honestly, I think you should be very proud of your products.
> 
> Your lights started out "in a hole" because of the unnecessarily antagonistic tone used early in this topic presenting your models as superior to the competition, and statements such as lighting up the side of a building during daylight.
> 
> I agree that having a rechargeable solution & switchable ballast output would go a long way towards improving your product outlook. Good Luck!


+1 on the rechargeable solution.


----------



## vee73

Why can not see this video?
Is it my computer problem, or something else?
http://polarion-usa.com/videos/Polarion-HID-Video.html


----------



## Patriot

Ken, what the scoop on the chrome PH40 and the gold colored tail piece at the end of the video? Are these available?

Very well made video btw.

Thanks


----------



## vee73

I found new update, now it works.
Nice video!!


----------



## windstrings

mtbkndad said:


> Also remember the N30 was the only 30 watt light of the group.
> It should be the dimmest light out there  .
> 
> Most of the time I need a bright light within 150-300 yard range and the N30 handles that quite well. I also use the N30 for the thankless jobs that will likely get a light dropped or put down on concrete or asphalt or dirt.
> 
> I have had several people, who own multiple HID's, say that they have found they use the N30 the most because
> 1. It is bright enough for most tasks.
> 2. It is so inexpensive, they wont be heart broken if it breaks or gets lost or stolen, etc..



The fact that the lowly N30 watt is even in this comparison says it all... especially since its by far the lowest on the charts.... it does quite a phenomenal job for A. Being so inexpensive and B. So small and C. only 30 watts........ good job!... I think that light is a success in so many ways.

I do love its ability to be two lights in one with the LED portion that would run "forever" it seems off its mother battery.
Anytime you have a light that small for tent reading or doing small jobs etc, there is always a challenge as to where to mount or sit it without it rolling away or falling... hey, its already mounted on its own little stand!


----------



## windstrings

vee73 said:


> Why can not see this video?
> Is it my computer problem, or something else?
> http://polarion-usa.com/videos/Polarion-HID-Video.html



My quicktime viewer comes up and says there is additional software needed to view this video and unfortunately its not on the quicktime server.


----------



## LukeA

I'm now seriously considering an N30, as long as the price is still $150.


----------



## PhantomPhoton

Actually with the 5% CPF discount it is $142.50 
Mine is on the way.

I'm also interested in more info on the upgraded HF / Costco HID that BatteryJunction will be carrying soon.
Those things are (ugly) throw demons and with the better bulb temp I am sure I need one very soon.


----------



## BVH

I'd grab the N30 pretty fast. I think they're going to go up fairly soon. I grabbed one to add to my existing two and another to give as a gift.


----------



## adamlau

Oh no...Now I have the N30 on my short list, the PH40 on my shorter list. Makes my current trinket lights seem dull and boring by comparison:mecry:...


----------



## LuxLuthor

I'm holding out for the N35 (or whatever designation it had). If it never comes, oh well.


----------



## Ken J. Good

Patriot36:

Those were proto/custom finishes.

I am not sure if you can special order them or not. I will ask.


----------



## vee73

Ken J. Good
Would you please take beamshot picture. Polarion with Ti-Protection Cover.


----------



## Ken J. Good

If you want beam shots, they will have to wait a few days. SHOT Show is rapidly approaching and I have tons & tons of stuff to do to make sure we are ready.

The protective filter does change the beam pattern noticeably.


----------



## seery

double post - deleted


----------



## seery

Ken J. Good said:


> Seery: I would like to do a Beast, Beast II and Polarion comparison. Looking to get my hands on a Beast II (I have been loaned a Beast).
> What are we going to do here? Me come to you, meet in the middle, you come to me in San Diego?


Ken - Do you have time in your schedule for a trip to Michigan for a Beast II,
Beast, and Polarion comparison? 

If so dinner's on me. Let me know your thoughts.


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## XeRay

seery said:


> Ken - Do you have time in your schedule for a trip to Michigan for a Beast II,
> Beast, and Polarion comparison?
> 
> If so dinner's on me. Let me know your thoughts.


 
No comparison in the lumens output. Polarion will win hands down, not even close. If the Polarion outperforms the Hellfighter which it does, the beast is not even equal to it.


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## seery

XeRay said:


> No comparison in the lumens output. Polarion will win hands down, not even close. If the Polarion outperforms the Hellfighter which it does, the beast is not even equal to it.



So do we exclude the Xeray from any comparisons because it's built like a kid's toy
and XeVision offers a colossal 365 day warranty to convince us otherwise?


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## Ken J. Good

Let's try after SHOT Show....March/April?

My father grew up in Michigan, it might be good to see where he plowed the earth on the farm.


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## BassMan

Ken:

I'm also interested in the possibility of the chrome PH40 ....
Any word on the custom finish possibility ?

When do you think we might see a 50 watt or higher wattage
HID from polarion in a similar or same form factor ?

thanks....


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## LuxLuthor

seery said:


> So do we exclude the Xeray from any comparisons because it's built like a kid's toy
> and XeVision offers a colossal 365 day warranty to convince us otherwise?



I'm not feeling the love.


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## Ken J. Good

BassMann,

Shoot me an email at: [email protected] if you are serious about a non-standard finish.

As far as other Polarion Models, we have a few things in the works and I will release information when we are a bit further down the timeline.

I will say that there are no immediate plans to do an "upgraded" 50-watt Helios if that is what you are waiting for.


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## mtbkndad

BassMan said:


> Ken:
> 
> I'm also interested in the possibility of the chrome PH40 ....
> Any word on the custom finish possibility ?
> 
> When do you think we might see a 50 watt or higher wattage
> HID from polarion in a similar or same form factor ?
> 
> thanks....



I know Ken already answered this, but I would like to say that with the XeRay 50 watt set to the same focus as the Helios, they are very comparable to one another. I posted pics demonstrating this a while back.
With such a small body, I think heat may become an issue for something the size of a Helios at 50 watts if run for long periods. My X1's body gets too hot to hold when it has been running for 80 minutes and it is 35 watts. I have never had opportunity to do runtime tests on a Helios but would not be surprised if it gets quite warm too. It seems to me that Polarion has done a great job of squeezing maximum lumens out of the Helios form factor.


Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## BassMan

Hi mtbkndad: I have one of the Surefire Beasts (I) and I've seen your posts with beamshots of many of the great hid lights....Great work by the way and thanks for giving many on the forums a chance to see these babies in action. I've almost bought one of the BarnBurners but I'm not a fan of the form factor so much. What I'd really like would be a 50 to 100 watt HID in as small a form factor as possible along the lines of the Helios or Beast... Kinda like the LarryK Sleeper output in a smaller package... haha... not possible in today's world.... I do like the helios and might just get one... I don't tend to run the Beast for long periods of time so I don't need a runtime of even 60 min continuous. I'm not too worried about it heating up...

Thanks
Grant


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## mtbkndad

Hi Grant,

You would obviously be a responsible owner of a light that is small, insanely bright, and needs to be treated with respect due to heat issues. However manufacturers have to take into account the people who aren't responsible.

If you got a Helios I am quite confident you would not be disappointed.
They are great lights. If you get one I recommend one with a handle because the Helios is very front heavy when holding it by the body.

What it sounds like you want is an HID version of Mac's Torch. That thing is tiny, insanely bright for a Mag for factor, and will cook your skin if you hold onto it for a few minutes  .
Somebody could probably make a 50 watt HID that is quite small, but it would likely be a custom job where you acknowledge the inherent dangers of such a light. 
I do not know if there are components available to make a 100 watt HID in a form factor as small as a Helios.
I rather doubt it.

Thanks for the kind words & good luck in your quest.
Maybe the Group 5 guys would be interested in doing a custom 50 watt light as small as you want. If they were, I would bet it would be considerably more then a Helios for not much more light output and much more heat in the body.

Take Care,
Daniel
mtbkndad :wave:


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## Patriot

Ken J. Good said:


> Patriot36:
> 
> Those were proto/custom finishes.
> 
> I am not sure if you can special order them or not. I will ask.



I was curious if you knew off-hand. No need to check. That is an awesome looking Helios though.


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## BassMan

Daniel: I've always liked the non-handle version better in a visual sense.... Is the one without the handle difficult to hold in a conventional manner ? I wish the handle was remove-able.... I'd be ok with a larger Helios (up to a point) to get the 50... 75 watts... maybe in a year or 2 they will bring out something with more lumens / throw etc... it does seem that if you really want big output you have to make it yourself or have a talented maker put something together....

regards
Grant


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## mtbkndad

Grant,

This is just my personal opinion, but I like the feel of the handled version when holding it around the body more then the feel of the non handled version when holding it around the body.

The no handle version is not difficult to hold, but you notice that is is rather front heavy.
Even with the handle, it leans a little toward the front.
Depending on your hand size, strength, and fitness level the front heavy feel may become a challenge if you are using the light for it's full battery life.
I know you mentioned that you anticipate using it for relatively short periods, but this is something to take into consideration if you ever need to use it for a long period. I feel the handle version gives you more options.
Once again this is just my personal preference.

The X1 is the most balanced feeling light I have used.

Take Care,
Daniel
mtbkndad :wave:


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## JB

Back after the new year and what do I see? Great shootout guys and thanks for getting this organised so quickly.

Good seeing the HBs in action. Apologies to SJMorgan and Group5 for my initial doubts.


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## lasercrazy

seery said:


> So do we exclude the Xeray from any comparisons because it's built like a kid's toy
> and XeVision offers a colossal 365 day warranty to convince us otherwise?


Built like a kids toy? :lolsign: The beast is a joke compared to the BB. But hey, I guess I'd be touchy also if I spent 4 times as much and got 1/3 the lumens.


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## London Lad

You need to own a Beast II for a while to understand what its all about :devil:


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## BVH

Maybe we can all agree that all of these lights are fantastic and competition drives advancements and improvements which, in turn, benefits all of us.


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## daveman

BVH said:


> Maybe we can all agree that all of these lights are fantastic and competition justs drives advancements and improvements which, in turn, benefits all of us.


Thank you. 

No need to fall in love with brand names now, it's the advancement of the overall field we should favor, regardless of which manufacturer it was brought out by.


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## LuxLuthor

BVH said:


> Maybe we can all agree that all of these lights are fantastic and competition justs drives advancements and improvements which, in turn, benefits all of us.



+1 Very well said.


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## London Lad

BVH said:


> Maybe we can all agree that all of these lights are fantastic and competition justs drives advancements and improvements which, in turn, benefits all of us.



I would go with that 100%.

I just get frustrated when people compare lights based ONLY on brightness.

Now I know this is the spotlights and HID forum and we are all into brightness and building a really bright light is extremely satisfying. But then going round saying X light is 'better' than Y light simply based on brightness is daft.

A tank light is very bright but I wouldn't want one in a cave.

IMHO there are a lot of things to take into consideration when comparing lights, brightness is only one of them.


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## BVH

I'd love a tank light in a cave - as long as I didn't have to carry it! Might not make the other cavers too happy though.


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## London Lad

LOL


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## Ken J. Good

Just be careful because in some neighborhoods, they don't like tanks with lights on them in or out of their caves...


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## BVH

LondonLad, what is the significance of the cyan/white "S" icon under your number of posts?


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## mtbkndad

Ken J. Good said:


> Just be careful because in some neighborhoods, they don't like tanks with lights on them in or out of their caves...



OH Ken you ruined my evening :mecry: ! I was just going to start looking for a tank to go with my light.    

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## TOOCOOL

BVH said:


> LondonLad, what is the significance of the cyan/white "S" icon under your number of posts?




Hold your cursor over the S...........Its for Skype


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## London Lad

What toocool said


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## LuxLuthor

Hey where did the topic about New HID from Group 5 Engineering go?


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## Patriot

I'm bumping this because of the discussion going on about the HB series of lights by Group 5 Engineering in another thread.


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## DM51

I have included this thread in the "Threads of Interest" sticky.


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## Morepower!

mtbkndad said:


> I have to say that Mark's vintage Volcano mod and two vintage flashlight mods were three of my favorite lights and the event. I love the look and feel of these old lights. With modern output they are simply amazing.
> Mark keep up the great work :bow: :bow: :bow: . I am seriously going to be hunting down some vintage lights now.
> 
> Take Care,
> mtbkndad :wave:


 

If you are still looking I found this while looking for some other stuff.



.


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## dudemar

Question about the OP and the Shootout meeting:

Was this guy legit? It's kinda shady how he just popped in and then popped out less than a month after he created the thread... His first post also read more like an advertisement than your average first post.

Not trying to flame him, just think it's a bit odd...


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## Patriot

dudemar said:


> Question about the OP and the Shootout meeting:
> 
> Was this guy legit? It's kinda shady how he just popped in and then popped out less than a month after he created the thread...
> 
> Not trying to flame him, I just think it's a bit odd...





Yeah, he's legit. Actually he's still around and he even came to the last light shootout IV. This HID light thing was just an experimental venture for him and he's not doing much with promoting the product anymore.


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## adamlau

The man behind G5E was there  . The HB-2 50W really does throw an impressive beam downfield  .


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## LuxLuthor

Legit? Many months after it being pointed out that they "stole" a whole other light's shootout pictures and put them on their website, misrepresenting the reality of their light, no changes have yet been made. I know it takes quite an effort to change the URL links for two pictures...:shakehead  ...but legit? You decide.


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## Flashanator

yea I think those *[stolen]* pics are staying for good. 

looking at the real beamshot of this thing. I really do like the beam pattern, how it dumps a ton of light at a short range. but dam those batts are a turn off.:mecry:


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## Ken J. Good

Wow...

If I have learned one thing is the last 15 years:

Never underestimate the potential lack of integrity of those around you....


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## London Lad

I hate to say 'told you so' but I did say this guy was a wrong'n from the outset but I got shouted down.


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## Flashanator

legit? 

LOL, it wasn't enough to use pics of aircraft landing light mods to represent their little beast, so they upped the brightness of each pic too.:sick2:


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## dudemar

LuxLuthor said:


> Legit? Many months after it being pointed out that they "stole" a whole other light's shootout pictures and put them on their website, misrepresenting the reality of their light, no changes have yet been made. I know it takes quite an effort to change the URL links for two pictures...:shakehead  ...but legit? You decide.



I knew something was off...



London Lad said:


> I hate to say 'told you so' but I did say this guy was a wrong'n from the outset but I got shouted down.



...actually I agreed with you at the time, I definitely smelled some snob BS from him. lol

I won't lie, If I was Bill Gates I'd buy this light in a heartbeat. In fact I would buy all flashlights known to mankind. This not being the case, if I saved enough money I would likely settle with a Polarion or Beast...


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## Monocrom

Ken J. Good said:


> Wow...
> 
> If I have learned one thing is the last 15 years:
> 
> Never underestimate the potential lack of integrity of those around you....


 
If integrity were a tangible asset, its scarsity would make platinum look cheaper than dirt.


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## dudemar

Ok, I know everyone's going to think I'm crazy by saying this, but I am thinking about investing in this light.

Just a thought, I'm not going to take the dive yet. I don't even have the cash, but when I do I'd like to take this one into consideration.:thinking:

There are 9 pages of material I have to read through to get an understanding for this light, and I don't think my eyes can take it.:green: If someone can give me a quick summary that would be great.


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## BVH

If you can live with the size of a "Beast" or maybe a touch bigger, then you've passed hurtle 1. It puts out some very nice volumes of Lumens. I'd personally get the larger reflector model for more throw. If you don't mind spending a healthy chunk on primary batteries, then you've passed hurtle 2. IIRC, it is not set up for re-chargeables but I would imaging that could be "tweaked". Hurtle 3 - will Richard sell you one?


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## dudemar

BVH said:


> If you can live with the size of a "Beast" or maybe a touch bigger, then you've passed hurtle 1. It puts out some very nice volumes of Lumens. I'd personally get the larger reflector model for more throw. If you don't mind spending a healthy chunk on primary batteries, then you've passed hurtle 2. IIRC, it is not set up for re-chargeables but I would imaging that could be "tweaked". Hurtle 3 - will Richard sell you one?




Hurtle 2 would help if Warren Buffett was my buddy. Seeing how Richard hasn't even sold _one_ unit to the public, Hurtle 3 should be a piece of cake.:huh:


Yes, I do kinda feel bad for him. If it really is a _decent_ quality light (or better) then perhaps it's worth looking into.


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## windstrings

I agree..... Once upon a time if you really really "needed" that much lumens and/or just had tons of money to throw around "like the government - who uses other peoples money" you might opt to buy a mere 35 - 50 Watt HID light for that much money....

But there are just too many other options now.... some for less money than it cost for a football game!

The best place to promote such items are in arenas that haven't caught on yet and are not savvy to the bleeding edge of HID technology.... some place other than this forum.


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## DM51

Some posts were split away from this point to form a new thread here.


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Mr Ted Bear said:


> Here's a redo of everything


Hi Mr Ted Bear, I'm wondering this Polarion Helios shot here if it is 50W or 40W? Thanks!


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## Patriot

PH40, have a looksy at page 5.


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Patriot said:


> PH40, have a looksy at page 5.


Thanks a million Mr Pro :thumbsup:! Makes me super happy to know that it was only the PH40. I guess I don't have to get the L75 anymore. You are the best Paul!! :twothumbs


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## dudemar

Wow, holy thread resurrection.

Wondering if anyone bought one of these...

I haven't won the lottery yet...


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## Patriot

dudemar said:


> Wondering if anyone bought one of these...




If it hadn't been for the battery formula and lack of rechargeable option I would have pushed the idea of a group buy more. As it was, we only touched on it but interest quickly faded. To this day I don't think he has sold a single unit.


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## London Lad

There was some question about the authenticity of the beam shots used by G5 if I remember correctly ?


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## Monocrom

London Lad said:


> There was some question about the authenticity of the beam shots used by G5 if I remember correctly ?


 
Yup, there was also a question of integrity too.


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## Patriot

London Lad said:


> There was some question about the authenticity of the beam shots used by G5 if I remember correctly ?




It was so obvious that I wouldn't even consider it a question but rather a point that someone in the organization, (it was blamed on the marketing person) posted the wrong pictures either accidentally or intentionally. The two shots used were of the Hyper Blitz and LarryK14 which were supposed to be representative of the HB1 and HB2. Last time I looked, the pictures were still up and that probably won't be changing as long as there's a website in existence. The project was completely dead even back then because they didn't do their market research or they never intended to make a profit from this project in the first place. Perhaps it was a tax front of some type. If I remember correctly Richard..?... said that only about 10 lights had ever been built and parts were laying around for an addition 40 lights in various stages of completion. I would have to think that anyone paying their retail price would google search the name of the light first which would bring them here. Since we've never seen in inquiry it's my guess that they've yet to sell one.


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

London Lad said:


> There was some question about the authenticity of the beam shots used by G5 if I remember correctly ?





Monocrom said:


> Yup, there was also a question of integrity too.


Care to give the link? 
Thanks!


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## Monocrom

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Care to give the link?
> Thanks!


 
This entire topic would be the link.


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## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Care to give the link?
> Thanks!




This thread is only part of it, here is another....
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/198112


Regarding the "integrity" issue, I'm not sure there, because there's deniability and separation from the person who did their web design and marketing. If any crime has been committed, it's that they've be to lazy or lack enough interest or know how to have the pictures removed. Richard, the guy who designed and built the lights knows next to nothing about computers, forums or other electronic media and even needed help posting in this forum. If this group of investment partners has parted ways and no one is doing anything with the website that explains why nothing has changed. Some are taking it to be deception but I don't think that's the case, at least not now. It's like Ken Good stated earlier in the thread, sometimes you have to just step out there and try even if it mean coming up short. I believe this comment was made after the G5 guys had seen the performance of the Polarion at the shootout, which of course came in at a much lower price point.


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Thanks for the link Mr Pro! :thumbsup:


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## Fresh Light

I finished reading the whole thead yesterday. It seems like these were an odd group, albeit friendly to your face, from the start. The lights they make look well made. But, 20 primaries for something less than an hour burn is a bit much. So is dropping 3g on a light from an unknown builder. 
I was going to say no harm done but they did post a couple pics of your lights as their own. That was was pretty disrespectful in the least. But weird people out there make the world a whole lot more interesting. Thanks CPF.


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## Ken J. Good

Does Group 5 Engineering Still Exist?


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## London Lad

Ken J. Good said:


> Does Group 5 Engineering Still Exist?



Can't imagine they do, but my Beast 2 is still going lovecpf


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## Patriot

Ken J. Good said:


> Does Group 5 Engineering Still Exist?




Last time I spoke with him (Richard) it didn't sound as if it existed any longer. There were only 6 or 8 lights every built. He told me that he had parts for another 42 lights just laying around waiting to be built but to my knowledge they were never finished. They also never sold a single light, at least not in the retail sense. My guess is that friends or investors own the 6 or 8 that were built and that will probably be as far as it ever goes. From what I understand, the parts were all very high quality including German ballasts iirc but the killer turned out to be that it was solely primary dependent. They should have built it to use Polarion battery packs.


----------

