# Caving lamps-Head to Head



## AndyStroup (Sep 1, 2007)

These are the contestants- The old, almost outdated, Lupine Spe-Lu. And in stunning blue, the newest technology on the block, the fabulous Scurion!




The Scurion is a strong contender with it's aluminum housing, plexiglass clear light cover, and super bright LED emmiters. Notice the spotlight feature and the small, but very bright, main light.




This is the Lupine Spe-Lu. A very trusty little light. This is the very essence of what a caving light should be. Three settings-off-bright-dim. Blue light, but very good field of vision.




Batteries? Both are Lithium-ion and both are 7.2 volts. One is in a hard aluminum case. The other in a cloth zipper case.




Both have heat sinks. The one on the Scurion is huge compared to the Spe-Lu. Both have large switches that can be used with a gloved hand. The Spe-Lu can be positioned in more ways than the Scurion, such as straight down so you can look at people and not blind them when the light is on.


Which is the better light? Well I guess we would have to bring in the Stenlight to be fair. I will borrow one on Monday and get back to you. But if I were to judge right now, please don't kill me for saying this, I like the Spe-Lu. I bought both lights, the Spe-Lu and the Scurion, and have used both. I can have an opinion on these lights because they are mine. The Scurion is heavier and brighter and has alot more technology involved in the design. If it were that kind of contest, the Scurion would just kill the compettion. But if the contest were, the most durable, the easiest to use and the lightest weight, well that would be the Spe-Lu.

The Spe-Lu is around 380, and the Scurion is around 600 with an extra battery. If cost were an issue, well there is a winner there as well. In all fairness, lights in general are a personal preference. There are really are no winners or loosers. If the manufacturer makes money then, in my opinion, it's a winner.

I welcome any insights on this


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## Patriot (Sep 1, 2007)

What is the purpose for the huge exterior dimensions of the Scurion? I don't know anything about these lights.


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## AndyStroup (Sep 1, 2007)

That is something that I could not get. Other than the fact that it gets extremely hot under use, (thus the need for the huge fins) I could not figure it out. It has alot of electronics and the switch is big. Another thing that I found out when I got it was that the plexiglass was about a quarter inch thick. But then again, this is a cave specific lamp, and is made to be bomb proof. Hey, it is made well. I have yet to go somewhere and get it really muddy. I will be happy to see how it reacts to that. It actually has moving parts in the switch. My Spe-Lu has no moving parts and loves the mud and water. I can't say what my new light will do so I'll keep everyone informed.

The one thing that makes this Scurion a good light is the amount of light it puts out. It is not even close to being a typical LED light. It is more like a very white light spotlight. It puts out probably more than twice the light of the Spe-Lu. It's just,not to me, as useable. Most caves as everyone knows, are quite small in most spots. This light begs for big rooms and pits.


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## AndyStroup (Sep 2, 2007)

Well before anyone asks,




This is the Spe-Lu at full power, target about 40 feet away.




This is the Scurion at the same distance. Little difference!!!!!! ha ha ha




And this is the Scurion glowing with much delight!!!!


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## PeLu (Sep 3, 2007)

Patriot36 said:


> What is the purpose for the huge exterior dimensions of the Scurion?


It is not huge. The diameter is larger and it is protruding less. 
Experience showed that these are preferred dimensions for many cavers. But, as usual, YMMV and you may prefer it the other way round. The Stenlight has both, small diamter and flat design. 
Good heatsinking was also a reason, it might be overkill. As it is said that Seoul LEDs are more effected by overheating, keeping them as kool as possible is not a drawback at all. You can run both LEDs on full power without the thermal protection jumping in (except when the light is in your backpack). 

Another reason for making it as flat as possible was, that you get enough light into your instruments. Do not forget, this light was designed with the cave explorer in mind. 

And they think that an more or less unprotected Li-Ion battery is not good for a caving light. Again, there will be different opinions. 

Many cavers use the almost indesctructible Oldham and Speleo Technics headsets which have a similar weight and people have no problems with them.

Also the Speleo Technics Li-Ion cell has similar dimensions and weight.


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## crislight01 (Sep 3, 2007)

PeLu said:


> Another reason for making it as flat as possible was, that you get enough light into your instruments.


what do you mean by that? a large spill? i got a minerlamp with Oldham style headset but smaller battery case(li-ion 11Ah) i dont use it, i prefer right now a Fenix L2D-CE smaller, lighter and powerfull i can bring spare batts and have days of light, i use it for ancient quarries exploration and it has done good.


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## PeLu (Sep 3, 2007)

crislight01 said:


> what do you mean by that?


 The usual compasses and clinometers need the light quite close to your head. When your caving light protrudes far in front, you need other means of illumination. 
Besides that, is a flat light helpful in small passages.

And no, it does not shine in your eye. 

In case you want a larger adjustment range (up/down) or you are wearing glasses (to avoid shining it into them), it should be easy enough to make a longer front bracket, as it is only bent metal plate.

There is much more to say about a Stenlight, SpeLu and Scurion comparison. Each of them has it's strong points and might be the best light a a single caver. 

And brightness is only one of many points and not necessarly the most important (flashaholic cavers may disagree .-)


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## Patriot (Sep 6, 2007)

> PeLu said:
> 
> 
> > It is not huge. The diameter is larger and it is protruding less.
> ...


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## Patriot (Sep 6, 2007)

AndyStroup, it appears that the Scurion is enormously brighter than the Spec-Lu. I'm not a caver and I've just recently become interested in headlamps, but is the output of the Spec-Lu seems like it would be a disadvantage.


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## PeLu (Sep 6, 2007)

Patriot36 said:


> > It looks like a beautiful light with the blue anodizing and stainless looking hardware.
> 
> 
> And it is available in several different coulours, I do even have a three coloured one.
> ...


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## cave dave (Sep 6, 2007)

My Stenlight battery pack died this weekend. No apparent reason. It looks in phenomenal shape since I had it inside a case instead of exposed. We will see how the Stenlight company handles this, since at 1.5 yrs old it is technically not under warranty. Luckily I found this out in the parking lot of the cave and not deep inside. If it had happened inside I could of used the 9V or AA adapter but neither are particularly ideal for caving. Moral of story always carry a spare battery even if the primary battery has 20+ hrs of runtime. Over the yrs with experience with caving and bicycling I've come to hate proprietary battery packs.

Anyway this gave me an opportunity to use my SSC P4 modded Apex. I was worried the Apex might be too bright as the main beam only has 2 settings and on high is putting out > 100 lm now, but I have it set up to be pretty floody with a reflector and diffuser. I found that it worked very well. If I wanted dim light I could use the horrible blue 5mm on the apex. Or switch to the backup light also mounted on helmet. Petzl Tikka XP (soon to be Zebralight).

I have some serious misgivings about using LiIon in cave. 
- I think LiIons are very fragile what with all the extra circuity and all. Think of all the dying cell phones and Ipods. 
-The Stenlight design is unprotected from crush damage (very easy to happen in cave). 
-If they get damaged they can "vent with flame". 
-The by products of LiIon combustion are extremely hazardous, and while this is rare what would you do in cave? I wouldn't want to be stuck in a tight passage with a venting LiIon. Also this could have serious repercussions on the fragile cave environment and for future cavers passing through the same area. 

Conclusion: I would never by the Stenlight again. While it has strengths and weaknesses. For the price its hard to beat a modified Apex. I really prefer using AA batteries. I use Eneloops, but if they go bad I can dig in my pack for more or a trip to the gas station or bum a few from friends.


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## SilverFox (Sep 6, 2007)

Hello Cave Dave,

I was under the impression that the Stenlight would run off of NiMh cells... It is not the most compact or lightest power supply, but it should work. Am I wrong in this impression?

Crushing damage to batteries is an interesting study. In general, I have found that the brand name Li-Ion cells more resistant to denting than NiMh cells. I believe the cases are thicker. The problem comes when you do enough damage to disturb the seal. Then the electrolyte vents releasing a potentially flammable gas and liquid. If a spark source is present, you can end up with a fire, but it will not be as violent as that from thermal runaway. Premium cells are subjected to DOT testing, including crush tests. 

The problem with crushing damage is that it may not manifest itself until the next charge cycle. It is important to examine your cells prior to charging, and attend to the charge while charging. If something doesn't look quite right, don't charge.

I think if I were going into a confined space that could possibly damage my battery pack, and did not have an understanding of what to expect from a damaged pack, I would go with tested cells, or do some testing on my own.

I regularly go into industrial confined spaces with Li-Ion powered lights, and am very comfortable using them. I am currently using LG 18650 cells in these lights.

Tom


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## cave dave (Sep 6, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Cave Dave,
> 
> I was under the impression that the Stenlight would run off of NiMh cells... It is not the most compact or lightest power supply, but it should work. Am I wrong in this impression?
> Tom


The buck regulator will run off any source between 7.2v and 18v. You can buy the AA pack and I have one, but it is heavy and not very robust. It consists of 2 AA holders glued together and wired in series. 

http://www.pratthobbies.com/proddetail.asp?prod=STEN-ZACC


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## flex76italy (Sep 6, 2007)

cave dave said:


> My Stenlight battery pack died this weekend. No apparent reason. It looks in phenomenal shape since I had it inside a case instead of exposed. We will see how the Stenlight company handles this, since at 1.5 yrs old it is technically not under warranty. Luckily I found this out in the parking lot of the cave and not deep inside. If it had happened inside I could of used the 9V or AA adapter but neither are particularly ideal for caving. Moral of story always carry a spare battery even if the primary battery has 20+ hrs of runtime. Over the yrs with experience with caving and bicycling I've come to hate proprietary battery packs.
> 
> Anyway this gave me an opportunity to use my SSC P4 modded Apex. I was worried the Apex might be too bright as the main beam only has 2 settings and on high is putting out > 100 lm now, but I have it set up to be pretty floody with a reflector and diffuser. I found that it worked very well. If I wanted dim light I could use the horrible blue 5mm on the apex. Or switch to the backup light also mounted on helmet. Petzl Tikka XP (soon to be Zebralight).
> 
> ...




Hey buddy, no worries about li-ion in cave, my battery pack is sealed with a special rubber tape, and i hold it in the frontal pocket...seen the tight passage!


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## PeLu (Sep 10, 2007)

flex76italy said:


> Hey buddy, no worries about li-ion in cave,


 Famous last words .-)
No, seriously: A rigid housing may not add as much weight and bulk as it seems at the first glance:
With it, you can use the highest capacity cells (2.55Ah and soon 2.9Ah, which are more fragile and effected by impact), without it, it will be better to use the safer cells (2.4Ah or less). 
I haven't done the maths, but it could be easily that it turns out to be about the same specific energy. 
Of course, for daredevils or easier circumstances, mechanically less protected high capacity cells may be good.
Or, on the other side, no Li Ions at all.


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## cy (Sep 10, 2007)

here's a spare replacement pack for $30. carrying a backup is mandatory anyways. 
my stenlight pack is doing fine, but had other 18650 cells die after a few years of use too. but most are still hanging in there. http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2439

for serious trips, I always take the AA pack loaded with lithium AA's and a 9V pack too. 

lack of li-ion hardshell protection could be remedied by stenlight or by easily making one out of a small waterproof pelican case. So far my stenlight has proven itself to be very rugged. 








cave dave said:


> My Stenlight battery pack died this weekend. No apparent reason. It looks in phenomenal shape since I had it inside a case instead of exposed. We will see how the Stenlight company handles this, since at 1.5 yrs old it is technically not under warranty. Luckily I found this out in the parking lot of the cave and not deep inside. If it had happened inside I could of used the 9V or AA adapter but neither are particularly ideal for caving. Moral of story always carry a spare battery even if the primary battery has 20+ hrs of runtime. Over the yrs with experience with caving and bicycling I've come to hate proprietary battery packs.~
> 
> I have some serious misgivings about using LiIon in cave.
> - I think LiIons are very fragile what with all the extra circuity and all. Think of all the dying cell phones and Ipods.
> ...


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## Clunk (Sep 15, 2007)

Hello, guy's. Am new here, but just saw this thread and thought I would show you something that may interest you. 
We at www.darkplaces.co.uk were interested in how the scurion would compare with the stenlight, so we took 2 stenlights and a scurion into box freestone quarry in Wiltshire, England to compare the light.
Each picture was taken with the same settings on the camera. the camera was set at 16 seconds exposure.
Firstly, one stenlight.




next two stenlights.




then the scurion.




the stenlights, both had full batteries, and the scurion had been on for 6 hours up until this point. I own neither so will not comment further. Just thought you would like to see our test results.


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## yellow (Sep 15, 2007)

I think most of the cons to Li-Ion packs mentionned are exaggerated.

Around here pretty anyone making his bike light uses 4-cell Li-Ions and none has ever had problems so far. I bet packs mounted to bikes get much more abuse than packs placed somewhere on a caver.

Sure that part about "hazardous" is a point - but, because of this, certain cavers seem to use primaries and imho this is way worse for the environment than the very, very special event of a venting pack (which in 99,9 % of cases will happen while charging)

Sure there must have been some serious problem with Your pack - pls keep us updated how this goes on


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## LED_Thrift (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks for the pictures Clunk. Welcome to CPF. Are the pictures good representations of what you actually saw in the quarry/cave - that the Scurion was much brighter?


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## LED_Thrift (Sep 18, 2007)

yellow said:


> ... I bet packs mounted to bikes get much more abuse than packs placed somewhere on a caver...


 
I'm not sure what kind of biking you do, but I've done a lot of both road and mountain biking [& all my own maintenance] and even mountain biking does not come close to being as hard on equipment as caving is. Rock, mud, water and near 100% humidity just gets to things like nothing else I've done. I have a lot of respect for the designers of caving equipment.


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