# Need to break-in Eneloop ?



## kirby (Nov 13, 2009)

Just got two set of 4 Eneloop AA for Fenix TK40.

I have two Powerex MAHA MH-C9000 chargers to charge batteries.

Should I do the *Break-in cycle* for this type of batteries?

Thanks.


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## Mr Happy (Nov 13, 2009)

You own two C9000s and you have to ask this question? How will you ever get to sleep at night unless you find out the exact capacity of those eneloops? 

Strictly speaking there is no _need_ to run a break-in, but practically it would be a good thing to do. It will condition the batteries so you get the best performance from them. Run a 500 mA discharge first, so the break-in starts from empty.


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## kirby (Nov 13, 2009)

Mr Happy said:


> Run a 500 mA discharge first, so the break-in starts from empty.



Just curious, doesn't the charger discharge the batteries first during break-in cycle?


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## sfmartin (Nov 13, 2009)

Read the instruction sheet that came with them. The first thing is does is a 16 hr. charge at .1C.


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## BatteryCharger (Nov 13, 2009)

I have a bunch of Duraloops that I've been measuring on my BC900 - I ran them all through one charge-discharge-charge cycle, and then started measuring capacity. Most are in the 2.4 - 3 amp hour range...


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## TakeTheActive (Nov 13, 2009)

*You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...*



BatteryCharger said:


> *I have a bunch of Duraloops that I've been measuring on my BC900 - I ran them all through one charge-discharge-charge cycle, and then started measuring capacity. Most are in the 2.4 - 3 amp hour range*...


Hate to be the one to BURST YOUR BUBBLE but you're misinterpreting your BC-900 readings  (i.e. confusing 'ACCUMULATED / CHARGE' Capacity with DISCHARGE Capacity ). Please re-read the manual.

Also, putting back ~3Ah (3000mAh) into a 2000mAh Duraloop is a bit high (~50% OVERCHARGE). 

What Charge Rate are you using? 200mA?  :shakehead 

Please try '*THE EXPERIMENT*' and post your results.


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## BatteryCharger (Nov 14, 2009)

*Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...*



TakeTheActive said:


> Hate to be the one to BURST YOUR BUBBLE but you're misinterpreting your BC-900 readings  (i.e. confusing 'ACCUMULATED / CHARGE' Capacity with DISCHARGE Capacity ). Please re-read the manual.
> 
> Also, putting back ~3Ah (3000mAh) into a 2000mAh Duraloop is a bit high (~50% OVERCHARGE).
> 
> ...



I'm not an idiot, I know how to use my charger.  Notice my name is BatteryCharger and how long I've been here and how many posts I have. I have over 150 Duraloops that range from at least 2.3AH, up to 3.5AH. So far I've only tested one at 1900-something mAh.

I disagree completely with your stance on a 200ma charge rate, that is what is printed on the side of the battery from Duracell. With all due respect, I think their engineers probably know more about the batteries than you do.


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## Mr Happy (Nov 14, 2009)

*Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...*



BatteryCharger said:


> I'm not an idiot, I know how to use my charger.  Notice my name is BatteryCharger and how long I've been here and how many posts I have. I have over 150 Duraloops that range from at least 2.3AH, up to 3.5AH. So far I've only tested one at 1900-something mAh.
> 
> I disagree completely with your stance on a 200ma charge rate, that is what is printed on the side of the battery from Duracell. With all due respect, I think their engineers probably know more about the batteries than you do.


You can carry on as you are then -- but for the benefit of anyone else reading, lest they be confused: no AA Duraloop has a capacity greater than about 2050 mAh, and no AA size NiMH cell in the world has a capacity much greater than 2700 mAh.


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## TakeTheActive (Nov 14, 2009)

*Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...*



BatteryCharger said:


> *I'm not an idiot, I know how to use my charger...  *


I'm not calling anyone an idiot. All I'm asking is that you re-read your manual re: *ACCUMULATED CAPACITY* vs *DISCHARGE CAPACITY* and try '*THE EXPERIMENT*'.



BatteryCharger said:


> ...Notice my name is BatteryCharger and *how long I've been here and how many posts I have*...



Low Post Count != Low Knowledge and High Post Count != High Knowledge



BatteryCharger said:


> ...I have over 150 Duraloops that range from at least 2.3AH, *up to 3.5AH*...


Your Duraloops with 3.5AH *ACCUMULATED CAPACITY* are missing the -DeltaV termination (probably due to a too low Charge Rate) and slowly being damaged.



BatteryCharger said:


> ...I disagree completely with your stance on a 200ma charge rate, that is what is printed on the side of the battery from Duracell. With all due respect, I think their engineers probably know more about the batteries than you do.


SEARCH the CPF Archives for *Keyword:* '200mA' and *User Name:* *SilverFox* or *Mr Happy*. Or CLICK on my Sig Line LINK and read about Charge Rates.

200mA has it's purpose and 0.5-1.0C has it's purpose. And that's according to the engineers, not me...


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## BatteryCharger (Nov 15, 2009)

*Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...*



TakeTheActive said:


> 200mA has it's purpose and 0.5-1.0C has it's purpose. And that's according to the engineers, not me...



200mA is what is recommended by the Duracell engineers. That's why it's printed on every battery. But I'm sure you know more than Duracell does about their batteries...:shakehead


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## shadowjk (Nov 15, 2009)

*Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...*

Duracell has no motivation to keep your rechargeable batteries healthy. They'd rather see you destroy them quickly so that you go back to buying the alkaline kind.


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## SilverFox (Nov 15, 2009)

*Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...*

Hello BatteryCharger,

According to the information on the Duracell website, they actually recommend many different charge rates and also discuss the termination methods used with each charge rate.

Do you happen to know what method and measurement the BC-900 uses for charge termination? Using that method of termination, what charge rate does Duracell actually recommend?

Their actual recommended charge termination is based on temperature. It is too bad that they don't offer any chargers that use this for primary charge termination.

Tom


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## BatteryCharger (Nov 15, 2009)

*Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...*



shadowjk said:


> Duracell has no motivation to keep your rechargeable batteries healthy. They'd rather see you destroy them quickly so that you go back to buying the alkaline kind.



Actually, they do. If these batteries fail quickly, then they get a bad reputation. Remember the Energizer 2500s that were quickly replaced with 2450's - and now everybody's afraid to even try the 2450s and Energizer's name is dirt.


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## Ken2step (Nov 16, 2009)

*Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...*



BatteryCharger said:


> 200mA is what is recommended by the Duracell engineers. That's why it's printed on every battery. But I'm sure you know more than Duracell does about their batteries...:shakehead


With due respect BatteryCharger....the link SiverFox give to Duracell charging advice says nothing about 200ma being a recommend rate but instead this cut & paste from their pdf on NiMh maintenance ...

6.2 Techniques for Charge Control
The characteristics of the nickel-metal hydride
battery define the need for proper charge control in
order to terminate the charge and prevent overcharging
or exposure to high temperatures. Each charge control
technique has its advantages and disadvantages. For
example, higher capacity levels are achieved with a 150
percent charge input, but at the expense of cycle life;
long cycle life is attained with a 105 to 110 percent
charge input, albeit with slightly lower capacity due to
less charge input.

if I understand that correctly 105%-110% on a 2000mAh Duracell would then be like 2000mA current charge and that is 10x 200mA. So for sake of discussion could you explain how you come up with the 200mA rate? I am still learning this stuff as I just got a C9000 a few weeks ago myself.
cheers,
Ken


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## TakeTheActive (Nov 16, 2009)

*Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...*



BatteryCharger said:


> *200mA is what is recommended by the Duracell engineers. That's why it's printed on every battery. But I'm sure you know more than Duracell does about their batteries...*:shakehead


*PISSING OFF* other CPF Members isn't my goal here. Rather, I consider myself a *CONDUIT / PARROT / TEACHER*.



Hoggy said:


> ...*What TTA is trying to do helps out quite a bit. I saw a number of things I didn't notice before. -- And I've been reading CPF-batteries for over a year or so!
> 
> I think the way he's organizing the information is quite good. Almost exceptional, if I might say so myself.
> 
> ...


I've personally invested *MANY* (100? / 200? / MORE!) hours of my personal time reading the CPF 'Batteries Included' Archives. 
I've READ.
I've ABSORBED.
I've EXPERIMENTED.
*I've LEARNED! *​And the *BEST*, IMHO, of what I've learned, I've shared in my Sig Line LINK. :twothumbs

IMHO, MANY of the *BEST* THEORETICAL DISCUSSIONS occurred *YEARS* ago, when this '_*Rechargeable Cell Technology*_' was (relatively) *NEW* to most of them. Personally, I don't '_*Give a Hoot*_' as to how long you've been a CPF Member, or how many posts you've accumulated. :tired:

*The *MOST* important criteria are: *
*WHAT KNOWLEDGE HAVE *YOU* OBTAINED?!? :thinking:*
*WHAT KNOWLEDGE ARE YOU PASSING ON TO *OTHERS*?!? :thumbsup:*

From my perspective, repeatedly *BEATING ON YOUR CHEST* doesn't *MAGICALLY* grant you CREDIBILITY. TWO of CPF's "*ACKNOWLEDGED GURU's*" have already DIPLOMATICALLY (*NOT* one of my strong points ) replied to this thread:



Mr Happy said:


> *You can carry on as you are then -- but for the benefit of anyone else reading, lest they be confused: no AA Duraloop has a capacity greater than about 2050 mAh, and no AA size NiMH cell in the world has a capacity much greater than 2700 mAh.*






SilverFox said:


> ...*According to the information on the Duracell website, they actually recommend many different charge rates and also discuss the termination methods used with each charge rate.
> 
> Do you happen to know what method and measurement the BC-900 uses for charge termination? Using that method of termination, what charge rate does Duracell actually recommend?
> 
> Their actual recommended charge termination is based on temperature. It is too bad that they don't offer any chargers that use this for primary charge termination*...




```
TECHNICAL BULLETIN
Charging Sealed Ni-MH Batteries

Charging Methods

Recommended Charge Procedure:

    * For fast charging and optimum performance, Duracell recommends a three-step procedure:
         1. Charge at 1C rate, terminated by using dT/dt = 1°C (1.8°F)/minute
         2. Apply a C/10 top-up charge, terminated by a timer after 1/2 hour charge (optional, not required)
         3. Apply a maintenance charge of indefinite duration at C/300 rate 
    * The recommended charge procedure should be used with a backup temperature cutoff of 60°C (140°F). 

Alternate Charge Procedures Include:

    * Low-rate charge (~12 hours): Charge at C/10 with a time-limited charge termination.
    * Quick charge (~4 hours): Charge at C/3 with a -V = 10 mV/cell.
    * Fast charge (~1 hour): Charge at C/2 to 1C rate with either -V, or T termination.
    * Trickle charge: Constant charge at C/300 rate to maintain full charge.
```
*Reference: **Silverfox's Duracell LINK (from above)*

Along with a CPF member:


shadowjk said:


> *Duracell has no motivation to keep your rechargeable batteries healthy. They'd rather see you destroy them quickly so that you go back to buying the alkaline kind.*



Now, back to you:


BatteryCharger said:


> Actually, they do. If these batteries fail quickly, then they get a bad reputation. *Remember the Energizer 2500s that were quickly replaced with 2450's - and now everybody's afraid to even try the 2450s and Energizer's name is dirt.*


Where is Energizer's name *DIRT* outside of the knowledgeable members that visit this forum?

Listen man, FROM THE HEART, I'm *NOT* here to give you grief / attack you / etc...

Take a DEEP BREATH, calm down, and run "*THE EXPERIMENT*". Then, BE A MAN, and post your results. 

BTW, *MY* results have already been posted in VARIOUS threads related to this same topic. 

P.S. Regarding my "_*more than the casual member*_" usage of the various FORMATTING PARAMETERS:



Greta said:


> *Well... ...Why build something into the software if there is no need/demand for it and it never gets used? Crazy! Just crazy! *


lovecpf
:thanks:



​
LISTEN to your 'normal text' as if the words were spoken by the DIGITAL BOX that Stephen Hawkins *HAS* TO USE - MONOTONE! Then, listen to how people ACTUALLY speak to one another - louder, softer, pitch higher, pitch lower, etc...

THAT'S what you gain from utilizing the FORMAT PARAMETERS! 
PLAIN TEXT - ROBOT sounding.
.
FORMATTED TEXT - HUMAN sounding (although it DOES look '_different_')


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## xevious (Nov 16, 2009)

I have never before seen such a diplomatic handling of this kind of situation. You so very well outlined your credibility while emphasizing how you're only trying to educate and not brow beat. That's the spirit these kinds of forums are made of. We all learn some good stuff and then share it with others. There's no place for competition ("I know more than you do" sh*t). We're all here to learn and improve, using the knowledge we get here to make all of our lives better. Symbiosis, man. :thumbsup:


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## BatteryCharger (Nov 16, 2009)

*Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...*



Ken2step said:


> So for sake of discussion could you explain how you come up with the 200mA rate?



*IT'S PRINTED ON THE SIDE OF THE BATTERY!*

How many times do I have to say that? Nothing some stranger says on the internet will overule for me what Duracell themselves write directly on the battery. THEY KNOW MORE THAN YOU DO ABOUT THEIR OWN BATTERIES! Period!


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## BatteryCharger (Nov 16, 2009)

Just so we're all clear on the most current and accurate recommendation directly from Duracell:





Notice the part where it says *"Standard charge 200mA for 16h"*

I don't care what kind of info internet battery geeks dig up, that is the most obvious recommendation from the manufacturer. If Duracell didn't want your batteries to last very long, they wouldn't have chosen Sanyo as the OEM - they would all be black top made in China batteries. The engineers who work for Duracell aren't stupid, they know as well as you and me how good Eneloops are, and that's why they chose them mostly over the Rayovac style.

I've never actually looked at a real Eneloop, but I would be willing to guess they make the same recommendation.


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## Mr Happy (Nov 16, 2009)

BatteryCharger said:


> A bunch o'stuff we already know about what is written on the side of Duracell rechargeable batteries


You know, you can keep mouthing off and making a fool of yourself, or you can stop and listen. It doesn't seem you want to listen though.

Once again, for the benefit of others reading, what is written on the side of the battery is not a recommendation about the best charging method -- even if it is easy to assume so. It is a description of the charging method that will produce an average capacity measurement of 2000 mAh as also printed on the side of the battery. You can use that charging method, but there are better ones to use that ultimately will improve the performance you get from the battery.

You can read the long and detailed Duracell technical note linked to by Silverfox, or you can read the five little words that fit on the side of an AA cell. The choice is yours.


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## Ken2step (Nov 17, 2009)

+1 for Mr. Happy!! 



lovecpf


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## Ken2step (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...*



BatteryCharger said:


> *IT'S PRINTED ON THE SIDE OF THE BATTERY!*
> 
> How many times do I have to say that? Nothing some stranger says on the internet will overule for me what Duracell themselves write directly on the battery. THEY KNOW MORE THAN YOU DO ABOUT THEIR OWN BATTERIES! Period!


Thanks BatteryCharger and the picture too. I can see how you would come to that conclusion for sure, but after reading the link that SiverFox put from Duracell themselves plus all the links provided here about charging cells, I think it is not so simple as you state nor is it what Duracell recommends to maintain their battery. 
Until I got educated here at CPF I think I was doing to my batteries like SiverFox's signature says....
"Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered..." LOL....how funny but true on my part! Good luck and cheers!


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## KiwiMark (Nov 18, 2009)

BatteryCharger said:


> Just so we're all clear on the most current and accurate recommendation directly from Duracell:
> 
> Notice the part where it says *"Standard charge 200mA for 16h"*




Unfortunately you are making some mistakes in logic and understanding here:

1. You regard the text that Duracell choose to have written on their batteries as "the most current and accurate recommendation directly from Duracell". The truth is that the put the most simple and easiest to fit information on the cell, they have no room to write all the possible charging methods.

2. You don't even understand the simple instructions written on the cell and you mistakenly think you do. What is written on the cell is the standard charge by a 'dumb' charger - 200mAh for 16 hours. This does not mean that you should use a delta V charger at 200mAh until it detects peak - it is a description of how to charge with a cheap timer based charger.

3. You fail to consider that there are charging methods other than the 'standard charge' one listed on the cells.

4. Somehow you see the term 'standard charge' and amazingly your mind interprets that as 'the best possible charging method' - that is not what it says and that is not what it means!

5. Having read what is written on the cells and applying your own mysterious method of interpreting it you refuse point blank to acknowledge any other evidence on this matter that contradicts what you have decided to believe, such as this: http://www.duracell.com/oem/rechargeable/Nickel/methods.asp which is more elaborate information on charging from Duracell themselves, that clearly they could not possibly write on the cells.




BatteryCharger said:


> I don't care what kind of info internet battery geeks dig up, that is the most obvious recommendation from the manufacturer.



If you flat-out refuse to let yourself learn anything from this internet forum then why are you here?



BatteryCharger said:


> I've never actually looked at a real Eneloop, but I would be willing to guess they make the same recommendation.



You would be guessing wrong then - I have some genuine Sanyo Eneloops and they do NOT make the same recommendation. For anyone actually willing to learn: http://www.eneloop.info/home/faq.html this page says many things, but the charging rate suggested is clearly 0.5C - they don't recommend any higher rate than that.



Sanyo said:


> Though it is possible to charge an eneloop battery in a "Quick Charger", it is not recommended. We recommend charging eneloop batteries in a NiMh charger that is 2 hours or more





Sanyo said:


> *How long does it take to charge an eneloop battery in the eneloop 2-position compact charger?*
> From 2 to 4 hours.



From this quote it does not sound to me like Sanyo's own eneloop 2-position compact charger is charging at 200mA - it would be more like 4X that charge rate!


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## KiwiMark (Nov 18, 2009)

BatteryCharger said:


>



I am having trouble with what I am seeing on these cells, or more what I am not seeing!

Recommended charging rate: not mentioned.
Possible charging rates: only one mentioned.
Maximum charging rate: not mentioned.
Recommended charging rate for Delta V charger: not mentioned.

Where does it say "it is better to charge at 200mA on a BC-900 than at any other rate"?

Where does it say that "charging at 700mA or 1000mA is bad, mmmkay!"?

Where does it say "Duracell recommends that this battery is not charged at a rate greater than 200mA"?

I think someone is reading a lot of info that is not actually there! *IT'S NOT PRINTED ON THE SIDE OF THE BATTERY!*


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## Marc999 (Nov 18, 2009)

I won't jump on this band wagon to chastise/educate 'BatteryCharger'. SilverFox's zen style approach followed by the hard handed method will do nicely. Edit: I have 30 posts now, do I get a free t-shirt or cookie recipe?
Secondly, dudes go easy on the colour, font style/size and those damn emotes! This isn't a circus, or is it? Food for thought.

Anyways, back to the original OP...break-in those eneloops and don't use emotes! Hahaha.


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## BatteryCharger (Nov 18, 2009)

How 'bout this: You charge your batteries how you want and I'l charge them however I want. Got that? 

When I make my choice as to how to charge the batteries, I will trust the advice I get from duracell and my own YEARS OF KNOWLEGE OF BATTERIES before some stranger on the internet.

Just because Silverfox likes to test batteries and make pretty graphs to show here, does not make him a batery god, or a Duracell employee. A monkey could quite literally do that if you give him the batter tester.


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## brted (Nov 18, 2009)

You should change the language and calm down before a moderator makes you do it. This is completely out of character for people on this board.

My Duracells also say the standard charge is 16 hours, but Duracell is probably referring to the standard test that is used to measure battery capacity, not necessarily saying they are recommending this way of charging cells. What's good for Duracells is good for Eneloops is good for any LSD cell. None of my other rechargeable's mention any charge rate at all, but Sanyo recommends charging Eneloops only in a Sanyo charger. I'm sure a lot of other battery-makers do the same. That doesn't mean Sanyo makes the only charger that can charge Eneloops.

Nobody needs to get abusive. You are certainly entitled to charge your batteries any way you want.


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## TakeTheActive (Nov 18, 2009)

BatteryCharger said:


> How 'bout this: You charge your batteries how you want and I'l charge them however I want. Got that?
> 
> When I make my choice as to how to charge the batteries, I will trust the advice I get from duracell and my own YEARS OF KNOWLEGE OF BATTERIES before some stranger on the internet.
> 
> *Just because Silverfox likes to test batteries and make pretty graphs to show here, does not make him a batery god, or a Duracell employee. A monkey could quite literally do that if you give him the batter tester.*


Somebody needs a "Time Out"! 

Everyone here is just sharing their knowledge and attempting to correct your misunderstanding of how your BC-900 Smart Charger/Analyser works (i.e. ACCUMULATED CAPACITY vs DISCHARGE CAPACITY).

Obscenities are totally uncalled for... :sigh:


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## KiwiMark (Nov 18, 2009)

BatteryCharger said:


> How 'bout this: You charge your batteries how you want and I'l charge them however I want. Got that?



How about this: If you have no desire or willingness to consider the information from other and believe you know better - then why don't you steer clear of information sharing mediums like this online forum. You obviously know everything and have nothing to learn!


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## adirondackdestroyer (Nov 18, 2009)

I asked this question in another Eneloop thread, but since this one is getting so much more activity, I'll mention it here as well.

I recently bought the Duracell Mobile charger (that is highly recommended here) and some duraloops. 
The instructions don't mention discharging or anything to that effect. As far as I know, the only thing you can do with this charger is charge them up. 

Is it ok if I just charge them up and use the batteries (without doing any breaking in or discharging first?). 

It's embarrassing that I even have to ask this question, considering I'm a 4 year vet with so many posts, but I've used AA Lithium cells all along. I'm only getting into rechargeables because the Polestar requires them. 

Please help. Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## Bones (Nov 19, 2009)

adirondackdestroyer said:


> ...
> 
> I recently bought the Duracell Mobile charger (that is highly recommended here) and some duraloops.
> 
> ...



Firstly, you are correct in your assessment that the Duracell Mobile charger lacks a discharge function adirondackdestroyer.



adirondackdestroyer said:


> ...
> 
> Is it ok if I just charge them up and use the batteries (without doing any breaking in or discharging first?).
> ...



Although nebulous, there is some evidence that discharging a new cell before its first charge will enhance the signal that chargers use to determine a fully charged state. In turn, this reduces the risk of an over-charged cell due to a missed termination.

Accordingly, it seems only prudent to at least partially discharge new cells before applying their first charge, especially considering it certainly can't do any harm as long as the discharge isn't conducted at an excessively high rate.

Enjoy your Mobile charger and Duraloops, they are both considered top-tier performers.


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## Mr Happy (Nov 19, 2009)

Further to what Bones said, your duraloops are "pre-charged and ready to use". So you can use them immediately in your light until they are discharged, and then charge them up for next time. A few use/charge cycles will work acceptably well as a substitute for running a break-in cycle.

Running programmed discharge and break-in cycles is something you can only reasonably do with a few special chargers like the MH-C9000. The vast majority of chargers do not have this facility, and if you don't have such a charger you need not worry too much about it.


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## jhellwig (Nov 19, 2009)

kirby said:


> Just got two set of 4 Eneloop AA for Fenix TK40.
> 
> I have two Powerex MAHA MH-C9000 chargers to charge batteries.
> 
> ...




Just to make sure that someone answered your question. 

Yes you can break them in. Just discharge them first. The c9000 doesn't do that before the 16 hour charge. Somewhere either on maha's website or in the c9000 instructions is a recommended interval for doing the break in charge.


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## Crenshaw (Nov 19, 2009)

gosh, i would expect a member with THAT many posts and THAT long ago a join date to behave better....


Crenshaw


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## vali (Nov 19, 2009)

3 Ah LSD cells? I want some of them...

But first try this: Charge that cells, let them rest about an hour and then discharge them to check how much energy they actually had. I really doubt the reading will be more than 2 Ah.

Please, dont blind yourself with a single number and try to read the full recommendations they put in their respective webpages/documents. Then try to UNDERSTAND why this of that charge are recommended.


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## rumack (Nov 20, 2009)

I admit if I had seen "Standard charge 200mA for 16h" on the side of an AA Duraloop I would have wondered if that meant it was the proper way to charge the battery. On the other hand, I know you have to filter what manufacturers say on their packaging, such as Sanyo's stipulation that Eneloops should only be charged in an official Sanyo Eneloop charger.

I want to thank members that are willing to patiently repeat themselves to help us n00bs that are just learning. The repetition is useful for those of us that don't even know the difference between a delta V and a delta wing but are trying to learn. lovecpf


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## TakeTheActive (Nov 20, 2009)

While SEARCHing the CPF 'Batteries Included' Archives for my reply to a recently reported La Crosse BC-9009 meltdown, I came across this 2006 post from *willchueh* (Maha Employee) regarding BC-900 termination methods:


willchueh said:


> ...In your case, it is not due to a MOSFET failure. Once they fail, they are done.
> 
> *The BC-900 uses four termination methods*:
> Negative Delta V
> ...



Note: I added some 'formatting' for clarity and emphasis.


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## uk_caver (Nov 20, 2009)

Presumably one reason for the 'standard charge' on the cells is that there's a limit to how quickly someone would damage the cells following that regime?

Mentioning a higher charge rate without all kinds of caveats about having a good smart charger (which wouldn't easily fit on the cell) would have opened up the possibility of someone rapidly screwing up the cells and then blaming the manufacturer.

In practice, they know that few people actually will have a 200mA/channel charger, and therefore most people who end up with dead cells from using a poor faster charger might at least feel partly responsible for charging at 'too high a rate', when in reality they should feel responsible for having a poor charger, but at least they won't necessarily blame the manufacturer.


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## 45/70 (Nov 20, 2009)

uk_caver said:


> Presumably one reason for the 'standard charge' on the cells is that there's a limit to how quickly someone would damage the cells following that regime?




"Standard Charge" is a reference to part of the international standard (IEC 61951) for testing the capacity of nickel based chemistry batteries, as brted stated in post #26.

Duracell (and often other manufacturers) print this on the side of cells to reference how the stated capacity was derived. It is not necessarily a recommended charge rate, but certainly could be used, with proper implementation. Often, as has been mentioned, there are other rates of charge that are more practical, or suitable for different chargers and situations.

Dave


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## RoyJ (Nov 21, 2009)

BatteryCharger,

While not a battery expert myself by any means, I am however, an engineer (ME) and have worked in an OEM in the past.

Just want to tell you that the recommendations you see on products or manuals usually has little to do with what the engineers actually say or would LIKE to recommend. In fact, most of what we say has to screen through marketing or legal departments first (who always seem to have veto rights over us!).

Take a typical car for example (since I'm mostly automotive), the recommended tire psi, tire size, wheel diameter, vehicle height, etc., are mostly determined by what the MARKET demands. For example, as long as basic safety is met, the OEM would always choose a tire psi that provides better comfort, than what we deem to have the best traction or tire life.

So, back to the batteries. I'm sure it's a similar case at Duracell - the engineers would want the best service life possible, but that would include a technical manual far beyond the typical consumer's ability. It'll even put off many potential buyers, who might think a battery with such strict charging requirements must be bad quality. In the end, they're left with a statement: 200 mA for 16h, that's a best compromise between battery life and ease of use.

So for us enthusiasts, I'd say there's always room for improvement upon the OEM engineers' "recommendations".


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## MCFLYFYTER (Nov 21, 2009)

I payed attention to manufactures recommendations, until about 3 years ago. One of my brothers buddies got a job at a company that designed and manufactured computer severs (the high dollar ones). His job was to design, test and implement manufactured defects. He would just figure out a way to over heat some component (at a predetermined time) that would fry the entire circuit board. They gotta keep the money flowing too.


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## koppenhoefer (Oct 22, 2012)

Mr Happy said:


> Further to what Bones said, your duraloops are "pre-charged and ready to use". So you can use them immediately in your light until they are discharged, and then charge them up for next time. A few use/charge cycles will work acceptably well as a substitute for running a break-in cycle.
> 
> Running programmed discharge and break-in cycles is something you can only reasonably do with a few special chargers like the MH-C9000. The vast majority of chargers do not have this facility, and if you don't have such a charger you need not worry too much about it.



Did you ever get a straight answer on this?
I just read through all the posturing, brow-beating etc. and I still don't know what to do with my new Eneloops and C9000 :-(

I think what I'm supposed to do is:
1. put the battery in my charger
2. choose BREAKIN
3. set the mAh to 2000mAh
4. wait

What did *you* understand/filter-out from all those posts?.
-shawn


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## Shadowww (Oct 22, 2012)

koppenhoefer said:


> Did you ever get a straight answer on this?
> I just read through all the posturing, brow-beating etc. and I still don't know what to do with my new Eneloops and C9000 :-(
> 
> I think what I'm supposed to do is:
> ...


Make sure to run a discharge cycle before break-in. Discharged Eneloops seem to get 50-100mAh more after break-in than non-discharged ones.


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## TakeTheActive (Nov 11, 2012)

Shadowww said:


> *Make sure to run a discharge cycle before break-in.* Discharged Eneloops seem to get 50-100mAh more after break-in than non-discharged ones.


*+1* :thumbsup:


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## Wrend (Nov 11, 2012)

Agreed. I personally do a discharge of 100mA first, then a break-in capacity setting of 1900mAh for the AAs and 800mAh for the AAAs. 2000mAh setting for the AAs is fine too.

You can do a faster discharge too, but the cells won't be cycled quite as deeply. I guess it depends how much time and patience you have... and how many sets of Eneloops you already have charged up and ready to use.


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## shomrighausen (Nov 15, 2012)

I purchased around 100 of Duraloops (AA/AAA) several years ago. I discharged all of them before putting them through a Break-In on my MH-C9000 chargers. I was impressed with the consistency across all of them, they averaged very close to their rated 2000mAh rating.

Over the years, I've used various capacities of NiMh, NiCd batteries from MAHA/PowerEx, Energizer, Duracell, Kodak, Rayovac, Radio Shack, Sanyo, etc, etc. The LSD batteries have performed extremely well in general, with special note for the Duraloops/Eneloops. In the past several years, I have not had a SINGLE failure. All of my Duraloop/Eneloop cells are STILL performing at 90% rated capacity or better.

Prior to getting the MH-C9000, I was using the (infamous) LaCrosse BC-900 chargers (only one meltdown... I feel lucky), and just about every other popular (and many not-so-popular) charger out there. The MH-C9000 does a good job of detecting bad cells with 'HIGH' internal resistance. It does a good job of reporting cell capacity as a 'sanity check' for your cells.

While I don't specifically think that the break-in is NECESSARY for any cells, I can tell you that it doesn't seem like it HURT anything on my batch of Duraloops. The MH-C9000 does a good job performing the 'standard' Break-In cycle and I don't regret spending the time waiting for the cycle on my batch of batteries.


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