# Ordering LEDs direct from China (AliBaba/AliExpress)



## dspiffy (Apr 11, 2014)

We use hundreds of PAR bulbs in our buildings, many of which are on 24/7. Anything that's not dimmable I switched to CFL about a year ago, and found the light quality really really poor. I wanted to switch to LED but at $10-40/bulb at Menards (similar to Home Depot to those not familiar) we couldnt afford it. I bought a few LEDs from Menards and the local lighting supply house to try and really liked the light quality.

I buy a lot of stuff on eBay, and I've noticed the stuff that's made in China often comes direct from China at really cheap prices. The wife had bought jewelry from AliExpress before, so I figured that might be a good way to get some LEDs for pennies on the dollar.

I did a lot of research first, particularly looking for posts/articles by others who had already tried this, and couldnt find anything. So I gave it a shot and placed a few sample orders myself. I want to share what I found in case anyone else is considering it. So far I've received about 100 bulbs and installed them.

First, these:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10X-...2-E12-Par20-3X3W-9W-Spotlight/1470402091.html

They're advertised as PAR20 but they're actually smaller, I'd call them a PAR16 short neck. I ordered 120v, they sent me bulbs labeled 220v but assured me they would work fine on 120v and they did. I got the 30 degree beam angle (which is more spot than flood), warm white, non-dimmable. They work out to being $2.70 per bulb, shipping included. They feel very cheap and lightweight, but they are in fact brighter than the cheapest similar bulb Menards sells ($9 each) and do not get NEARLY as hot to the touch as most of the LED bulbs I've bought from Menards or the supply house. I've had several of them burning 24/7 for about 3 weeks now, and no failures. Interestingly I noticed the exact same bulbs being used in a Chipotle that just opened. Their "warm white" is a little less pink than most, which is fine by me.

Next up I tried these:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/4pcs...arm-White-Cool-White-LED-Bulb/1688657168.html

They are a true PAR20 and more similar to what I've bought locally. I got 60 degree beam angle, warm white, non-dimmable. Their warm white is the more typical "slightly pink" warm white I am used to. These are for all intents and purposes very similar to the PAR20s from Menards, Home Depot, etc, except they are about 200 lumens less (the manufacturer's lumens rating seems accurate). They worked out to being $5.75/lamp. They also operate a lot cooler to the touch than the Menards ones. I've had some of these burning 24/7 for about a week with no failures.

ETA: Looking over my order specs, I ordered 32 but got 16. I emailed the seller, who told me "Sorry, but we cant afford to send you 32". I disputed the charges with my credit card and got half my money back. I wont be using that supplier again.

These arrived today:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free...-265V-Lifespan-50000H-CE-RoHS/1663647796.html

I have had more interaction with this seller than any of the others. They didnt make the bulbs until I ordered them, the other sellers seemed to have them ready to ship. They were very responsive and their customer service was very good, however they seemed very new to the online ordering process and missed the deadline to have them shipped by. Rather than say anything I extended the deadline a week and they met it with no issue. I ordered 9W, 45 degree beam angle, warm white, non-dimmable. They worked out to being around $7/bulb. They are short neck PAR30 which wasnt clear from the ordering page, I was expecting long neck (which usually are cheaper). They are a traditional slightly pink warm white with excellent light quality, probably best of the three.

I have some PAR38's on the way from the same seller as the PAR30.

If anyone else cares about this, let me know and I'll keep updating.


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## JohnR66 (Apr 11, 2014)

All I can say is to be careful with these. I can't say if these are really good or not. They are most likely run of the mill cheap Chinese crap. Fake or non existent safety certification, dodgy driver circuit, Bloated specification and poor electrical isolation (shock hazard). Lots of YT videos of the lousy construction of these things.


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## mds82 (Apr 11, 2014)

The biggest thing i would be worried about is the quality of these bulbs. Looking at the listing quickly they are not UL listed. They might be a bit less expensive but i'd be more concerned about safety


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## dspiffy (Apr 11, 2014)

My biggest concern was heat. Most problems with cheap/dangerous LEDs and CFLs stem from heat. That's why I was surprised they operated much cooler to the touch than those I bought here.


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## RoGuE_StreaK (Apr 12, 2014)

I'd be a little concerned about the _lack_ of heat; it may well be that the LEDs aren't heatsinked properly, so they feel cooler because the heat is staying at the LED rather than being spread and shed, slowly roasting it. Take one apart (carefully, extra caution around capacitors etc) and check how the LED is bonded to the heatsink. Sometimes it might just be a case of needing a pair of screws to increase the bonding power, or a replacement of the thermal adhesive.
Or you could have gotten lucky and found some good ones, I've got some cheap GU10s that go pretty good.


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## RetroTechie (Apr 12, 2014)

RoGuE_StreaK said:


> I'd be a little concerned about the _lack_ of heat; it may well be that the LEDs aren't heatsinked properly, so they feel cooler because the heat is staying at the LED rather than being spread and shed, slowly roasting it.


That was my thought too - _feeling_ hot may actually be a good thing. Especially if comparing 2 bulbs with roughly the same power consumption.



> Take one apart (carefully, extra caution around capacitors etc) and check how the LED is bonded to the heatsink.


 If you're buying in bulk (or planning to), I'd do that for sure. Safety first - check that! And also to get a general view of the bulbs' construction, materials / components used, etc. Simply ripping a few bulbs open & check insides, might be a much better way to determine quality than compare specs or use for a short while. Btw brighter in same size _might_ also mean "much shorter LED live".

Best is if you can post pix or videos (on YT for example) of such teardowns. Might be useful for other buyers o/t same. And maybe snap some thermal images if you can get your hands on a camera to make those.


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## dspiffy (Apr 12, 2014)

RoGuE_StreaK said:


> I'd be a little concerned about the _lack_ of heat; it may well be that the LEDs aren't heatsinked properly, so they feel cooler because the heat is staying at the LED rather than being spread and shed, slowly roasting it. Take one apart (carefully, extra caution around capacitors etc) and check how the LED is bonded to the heatsink. Sometimes it might just be a case of needing a pair of screws to increase the bonding power, or a replacement of the thermal adhesive.
> Or you could have gotten lucky and found some good ones, I've got some cheap GU10s that go pretty good.



That's a valid point. I was impressed with how beefy the heat sinks are in the larger ones (the ones I referred to as PAR16 short neck are tiny).

I took apart one of the PAR30s and can take pics and videos.

I'd love to take apart one of the US sold models to compare, but I dont want to spend $20-30 just to convert it to junk. Unlike the Chinese ones, I cant determine an easy way to disassemble them without causing some damage. They seem press fit together. The Chinese ones come apart with three screws.

One thing I am noticing, the power supplies are TINY. I am shocked at how small they are. A transformer the size of my pinky nail and one electrolytic cap.


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## dspiffy (Apr 12, 2014)

I had to stop by the facility today and I took some VERY quick and dirty video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5sDwGQK79w


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## durallymax (Apr 13, 2014)

I do a lot with Chinese LED work lights for 12v stuff. The quality there is worse than something like rigid only vision X but also 20 times less money. It's not poor to the point of unsafe IMO it's just a little crude around the edges. I took apart an 80w one tonite. I'll need to get more pics tomorrow but the thermal compound between the board and housing was scarce but I'm no engineer. They were also held down with screws. 


The little bit I have read about household type bulbs like you are dealing with has steered me away for now as I don't have the time to research what is good or not. There seems to be a lot worse quality being sold than with the 12v stuff and a lot of it is very unsafe. 

If I were you I would do a lot of research on the lights and what to look for. There is a lot of info out there not necessarily on here that can steer you in the right direction. I would also disassemble a lot of the lights before using to make sure things are put together right. It's a hassle but so is a fire or a shock when you screw it in with the power on . 

I'm doing some more research on my 12v work lights and may start disassembling more of them to double check the quality and redo the thermal compound. 

I've also done some research on alibaba and other B2B sites. From what I have gathered they are handy to use but if you want the best deals it's best to go to the manufacturer. Not all of them will deal with you though and not all of them speak English. It sounds like a lot of the sellers on Alibaba and suxh are resellers. It sounds like you encountered some of them by the sounds of the missed deadlines. Often they wait for your order then place their order. In dealing with them as well as the manufacturers you have to walk into the conversation like you gotta big **** for lack of a better term. They are out to make money toi and if they sense you are new they will take advantage of you. The prices you get may seem low but often the price they initially give you is still a hefty profit for them. No matter how cheap it seems you still should talk them down and know when to walk away. It's the good of days of haggling. Just like it used to be when buying a car. Put your low offer out and when they refuse walk away. They come back trust me. I get emails blowing up my inbox daily with new lower prices simply because I never responded to their email.

Eventually you will be able to find a manufacturer that you can negotiate a fair price with and be happy with the quality and shipping. 

If it was easy everyone would do it. 


Here's some pictures of the 80w China work light I took apart.


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## dspiffy (Apr 13, 2014)

I think if you start looking around at different import offerings, you can clearly identify junk. Some are simply a bad design. Others you can tell from the specs and the company information. Once you look at enough sites, you start to get a feel for it.

I agree that you have to approach them with balls. If they think you will be making HUGE orders in the future they will fall over themselves to help you.


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## durallymax (Apr 14, 2014)

dspiffy said:


> I think if you start looking around at different import offerings, you can clearly identify junk. Some are simply a bad design. Others you can tell from the specs and the company information. Once you look at enough sites, you start to get a feel for it.
> 
> I agree that you have to approach them with balls. If they think you will be making HUGE orders in the future they will fall over themselves to help you.




Yeah its pretty easy to get a feel for it all, at least with the 12v stuff there isn't a lot of variation. Most are offering the same stuff. If you were really getting into it with big orders or having things built for you then a couple hundred bucks will hire an inspector to go and check up on them to make sure they aren't cutting corners to fill your order, and if nothing else to make sure they really are a factory.

You need confidence, but do have to respect them. You can't relax and have to stay on them about quality and deadlines, but if you find a good supplier that doesn't try to pull any tricks you want to keep them around. Most work on pretty tight margins so there isn't a lot of room for price changes, but just be respectful yet firm goes a long way. As soon as one pulls a trick you dump them because they will try it again in the future.

The really are great people to work with for the most part, the cultural differences get in the way from time to time so you really need to make sure they understand the terms of the contracts but in the end I'd rather deal with them enough days than people in the states.


Didn't see you were in Madison, I'm not too far from there. Far enough to actually be in "reality" versus "Madison" which I like.


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## dspiffy (Apr 14, 2014)

Come visit sometime! I prefer Madison to reality sometimes.

I managed to fix the broken one shown in the video today. Just took some soldering.


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## dspiffy (Apr 14, 2014)

dspiffy said:


> I also am going to try these:
> 
> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10X-...-E12-Par20-3X4W-12W-Spotlight/1567288196.html
> 
> From the same seller as the first ones.



Got these today. They're my favorite so far, I think. For $2.70 a piece they're nearly as bright as the PAR30s. They're still very small for a PAR20, closer to a PAR16. The heat sink is more substantial than the lower watt version.

I ordered 45 degree, the boxes they sent me are labeled 60 degree, but the beams seem very narrow. I have an email in.


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## dspiffy (Apr 15, 2014)

Another really rough video, I'll make some better ones eventually:

http://youtu.be/UXUt63w3xs8


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## RoGuE_StreaK (Apr 15, 2014)

dspiffy said:


> Got these today. They're my favorite so far, I think.


Would be interesting to see what's _really_ in them; in part of the listing they say it's 5050 LEDs, which AFAIK would give nowhere near the desired output, and AFAIK are rated at about 0.5W max each. Elsewhere in the listing they say Cree.
I don't expect either of these statements to be correct, I've got a few GU10s similar to these and they work fine for the price and the internals appear to be safely made, would just be nice to know exactly what it is you're (we're) buying


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## dspiffy (Apr 15, 2014)

RoGuE_StreaK said:


> Would be interesting to see what's _really_ in them; in part of the listing they say it's 5050 LEDs, which AFAIK would give nowhere near the desired output, and AFAIK are rated at about 0.5W max each. Elsewhere in the listing they say Cree.
> I don't expect either of these statements to be correct, I've got a few GU10s similar to these and they work fine for the price and the internals appear to be safely made, would just be nice to know exactly what it is you're (we're) buying



Interesting.

It's not uncommon for these sellers to copy and paste from other listings, usually their own listings, sometimes others, and change details as they apply. Often details are missed.

Many of these listings claim to be UL and Energy Star. I wonder how true that is. I could care less, I know they're efficient, and can identify unsafe when I see it (or get shocked), but it is curious.


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## JohnR66 (Apr 15, 2014)

dspiffy said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Many of these listings claim to be UL and Energy Star. I wonder how true that is. I could care less, I know they're efficient, and can identify unsafe when I see it (or get shocked), but it is curious.



You don't care, eh? What about the flammability of the plastics used in them? What about the electrical analysis of the driver? What happens if one fails and burns the place down and your insurer finds you used non certified lamps? I bet you would care a lot more.


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## dspiffy (Apr 15, 2014)

JohnR66 said:


> You don't care, eh? What about the flammability of the plastics used in them? What about the electrical analysis of the driver? What happens if one fails and burns the place down and your insurer finds you used non certified lamps? I bet you would care a lot more.



That's why I take a look at them myself and test them "on the bench". I dont claim to be anywhere as thorough or accurate as UL, but I can pretty easily spot an immediate hazard. 

If the power supply fails, worst thing you'll get is some "magic smoke" and the horrible exploded capacitor smell.
There is no plastic in direct contact with anything that gets overly hot to the touch. The closest thing is the lens sitting over the LEDs themselves.


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## durallymax (Apr 16, 2014)

JohnR66 said:


> You don't care, eh? What about the flammability of the plastics used in them? What about the electrical analysis of the driver? What happens if one fails and burns the place down and your insurer finds you used non certified lamps? I bet you would care a lot more.



UL Listed CFL's start plenty of fires.


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## dspiffy (Apr 16, 2014)

I've never had any bulb catch fire. I have had some CFLs die in a dramatic cloud of black smoke. The LEDs generally just stop working.


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## dspiffy (Apr 19, 2014)

Trying these next:


http://www.aliexpress.com/item/20pc...0-MR16-E14-B22-GU5-3-Dimmable/1695211199.html


It's the same factory as the other small bulbs I mentioned, but a different seller account.


So far my experiences have been GREAT with the PAR20s (and smaller) and PAR30s. The PAR38s were pretty junky.


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## dspiffy (Apr 24, 2014)

I dont know if I mentioned it previously in the thread, but I bought one LED MR11 from eBay:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/141132893907


It lasted exactly one day.


I didnt have high expectations for it, so far I havent been able to find ANY LED MR11s that meet our needs.


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## mcnair55 (Apr 25, 2014)

Would it be a good idea to get in touch with your local council and see if there were energy saving grants available so you could purchase bona fide lights from a reputable source.I would imagine your insurance company would even offer a discount on a lower risk category.


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## JohnR66 (Apr 25, 2014)

He's enamored with using crap products. So be it. When the drivers quit or the LEDs fade before they should (hopefully no catastrophic failures), He'll have hopefully learned his lesson.

My friend bought one of those relatively cheap 100 watt LED fixtures for his barn. Probably less than 100 hours of use on it and strips of LEDs in the matrix (COB type LED) have already gone out.


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## dspiffy (Apr 25, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Would it be a good idea to get in touch with your local council and see if there were energy saving grants available so you could purchase bona fide lights from a reputable source.I would imagine your insurance company would even offer a discount on a lower risk category.



Focus on Energy reimburses for half the cost of LED bulbs. That still makes the in-store PAR30s $15ea or more.


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## mcnair55 (Apr 25, 2014)

dspiffy said:


> Focus on Energy reimburses for half the cost of LED bulbs. That still makes the in-store PAR30s $15ea or more.



But would you be buying a good product,from this thread all you have been buying is tat and your penny pinching now by all accounts could prove costly down the line.Remember the Chinese do not throw things away and i will never buy batteries off flea bay for that very reason.


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## dspiffy (Apr 25, 2014)

We simply didnt have the budget to spend any more than we're discussing here. It was either this or stick with the CFL PARs which have abysmal light and high failure rate.


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## dspiffy (Apr 26, 2014)

I received a couple cases of these yesterday:


http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/5073/PAR-105265.html


They are labeled CE and RoSH, just like the Chinese LEDs. No UL. 


Is that just as egregious, or not as they are sold by an American company?


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## DIWdiver (Apr 26, 2014)

AFAIK, CE is stricter than UL, so the UL marking would be redundant.

My biggest concern would be lumen maintenance. My experience with cheap LED lights is that after a year, they've lost half their output or more. It would be very interesting to get a cheap lux meter and make a few measurements every week or every month for a year.


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## dspiffy (Apr 26, 2014)

DIWdiver said:


> AFAIK, CE is stricter than UL, so the UL marking would be redundant.
> 
> My biggest concern would be lumen maintenance. My experience with cheap LED lights is that after a year, they've lost half their output or more. It would be very interesting to get a cheap lux meter and make a few measurements every week or every month for a year.



Shouldnt even need to be that technical. As long as I have at least one unused lamp, after a year, I can compare it to one of the lamps that's been in use 24 hours a day, and see if there is any notable difference.

According to CREE it should take 3 years of constant use before they drop to 85% brightness, and 6 years before they hit 70%.


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## dspiffy (May 3, 2014)

The order of dimmable ones came today. I'm home, but wanted to do some testing, so I put one in the track fixture in the spare bedroom. It's controlled by a GE rotary click on/off dimmer, 600w max. 


I prefer dimmers that cannot be turned on at full brightness-- therefore either rotary with click off, or slide with off at the bottom. I also dont like it when a dimmer is clicked on, but there is no visible light. At the dimmest setting, you should be able to tell it's on, otherwise you get people turning lights off but leaving the power on.


In this case, the dimmer clicks on and the LEDs start slightly brighter than the halogens. They're brighter than the halogens at full brightness too, so it may be linear. At the very dimmest setting there is a faint flicker visible when I look at the fixture. As I gradually move the dimmer up, the flicker goes away and it gradually continues to full brightness. There is no color change at varying levels, unlike incandescents and halogens.


I'm going to try a few other dimmers when I get to the buildings.


If anyone thinks a video would help I'll make one.


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## dspiffy (May 4, 2014)

600w no name rotary dimmer: click on, nothing. As you turn the dimmer, the lamps come on to 15-20% brightness, then evenly continue to full brightness


1000w Cooper dimmer: click on, nothing. Nothing for a while. Then out of nowhere 50% brightness, then full. I hate these Cooper dimmers


1200w dimmer from Taiwan: Click on to about 10% brightness, then evenly continue to full brightness. 


I did not notice any flicker with any of these dimmers


I tried one of the non dimmable bulbs on a dimmer, just to see. It comes on at full brightness and stays at full brightness no matter the dimmer position. No flicker, no variation, no nothing, just on.


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## RoGuE_StreaK (May 5, 2014)

Are you sure the flicker isn't just being masked by the brightness? Try waving your hand in front of the light and see if you get a strobing effect. Some of these lights have very basic rectification without any smoothing caps, which can be an unenjoyable experience


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## ken222 (May 5, 2014)

Thanks for all the info about these Chinese LED's!
I'm always concerned about CRI, do you have any idea what the CRI value is?


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## dspiffy (May 5, 2014)

RoGuE_StreaK said:


> Are you sure the flicker isn't just being masked by the brightness? Try waving your hand in front of the light and see if you get a strobing effect. Some of these lights have very basic rectification without any smoothing caps, which can be an unenjoyable experience



No, if you bump them up only slightly from the very dimmest setting, it goes away. I've also seen the power supplies, they do have two filter caps.



ken222 said:


> Thanks for all the info about these Chinese LED's!
> I'm always concerned about CRI, do you have any idea what the CRI value is?



The manufacturer claims 90. To my eyes the light looks identical to the LED bulbs sold at Menards, which all have a CRI in the 80-90 range.


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## SemiMan (May 6, 2014)

DIWdiver said:


> AFAIK, CE is stricter than UL, so the UL marking would be redundant.
> 
> My biggest concern would be lumen maintenance. My experience with cheap LED lights is that after a year, they've lost half their output or more. It would be very interesting to get a cheap lux meter and make a few measurements every week or every month for a year.



CE is stricter than UL? .... No. Mostly a self cert. No independent thermal tests or material tests or factory audits or really much of anything for that matter. Of course a lot of the time that CE is China Export .. Not the CE you are thinking .


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## Arthur8994 (May 6, 2014)

I had similar issue, i needed to replace about 80 of GU10 LED lamps in my house, i tried some on ebay which were junk and also ordered some on alibaba and quality was just not there, the LED lamps with GU10 base looks ok but they just weren't bright enough. I tried several sites including amazon but the best lumen output Gu10 led i got were from www.LightExports.com they have tons of different ones and even the ones that output 70W of halogen light, which was slighly strange since i didn't know GU10 lamps come in 70W its too much heat. Anyhow the ones i got were CREE GU10 6W Dimmable in warm white which easily output 50W of light with approx 500 lumens, i would get these again if i have to but know i am set since these are rated for 40,000hrs. Definitely recommend these.


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## dspiffy (May 6, 2014)

Arthur8994 said:


> I had similar issue, i needed to replace about 80 of GU10 LED lamps in my house, i tried some on ebay which were junk and also ordered some on alibaba and quality was just not there, the LED lamps with GU10 base looks ok but they just weren't bright enough. I tried several sites including amazon but the best lumen output Gu10 led i got were from www.LightExports.com they have tons of different ones and even the ones that output 70W of halogen light, which was slighly strange since i didn't know GU10 lamps come in 70W its too much heat. Anyhow the ones i got were CREE GU10 6W Dimmable in warm white which easily output 50W of light with approx 500 lumens, i would get these again if i have to but know i am set since these are rated for 40,000hrs. Definitely recommend these.



I took a look at your site. The prices are higher that buying bulbs in American stores.


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## dspiffy (May 7, 2014)

Tried a LUTRON dimmer today designed for LEDs. Because of the trim I was able to get the bulbs a lot dimmer than any of the other dimmers I tried before. However, like some of the other dimmers, at specific levels there is a faint flicker. That flicker is not there at all with the Taiwanese dimmer.


Two of my high end Sylvania PAR38 LEDs from the supply house have started making an odd buzzing sound. These are the ones with the best quality light.


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## SemiMan (May 7, 2014)

Probably always buzzed with a dimmer.


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## dspiffy (May 7, 2014)

SemiMan said:


> Probably always buzzed with a dimmer.



I should have clarified. These were not now, nor were they ever on a dimmer.


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## dspiffy (May 7, 2014)

HOLD UP. Who removed my links? First of all, they were to three separate suppliers, none of which are affiliated with me.

This thread is pointless if I cant show you the products I'm comparing.

I'm going to put them back, and if you delete them again, I'm putting them back again, so if you have a problem with that, you might as well ban me.


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## RoGuE_StreaK (May 7, 2014)

Prepare for a banning then; it's in the forum rules.
You ARE however allowed to say who you got them from, their exact title, SKU, whatever, to help people find with a quick search that exact item, but direct links are generally frowned on


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## dspiffy (May 7, 2014)

RoGuE_StreaK said:


> Prepare for a banning then; it's in the forum rules.
> You ARE however allowed to say who you got them from, their exact title, SKU, whatever, to help people find with a quick search that exact item, but direct links are generally frowned on





> [h=3]5. Posting articles and links[/h]Articles from other sources are welcome. Links to other websites are welcome. Do NOT post the entire article on CPF! 9 times out of 10, this would be an infringement on copyright. Limit what you post to around 100 words and then post a link to the original source. Always post a link to the original source!
> 
> When posting links, please take a moment and have some consideration for the other members of CPF. Do not post links or URL's that are so long that they cause horizontal scrolling of the pages. Use the regular reply page instead of Quick Reply and follow the directions/prompts for posting or inserting hyperlinks.
> 
> And one other thing. If the link that you post leads to something of mature content and/or something that perhaps some of our members may not want to see, post a warning with your link.




I dont see anything that would exclude me from posting links to where I bought something.

When I initially signed up for the forum, my posts, including this one, were deleted because the mods thought they were spam. I was quite frustrated as it takes time to type and repost links. I spoke with a moderator, who was quite understanding of my frustration, and he approved my posts, including this one. Why another mod would come back around and re-delete parts of it is beyond me, and frustrating all over again.


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## dspiffy (May 11, 2014)

I got my last shipment of PAR30's.


One died within the first hour of operation. The rest work(ed) fine.


Whoever said that these companies whatever LEDs they can get their hands on for each order might be on to something. This batch, all 50 bulbs have a slight yellow tint, similar to halogens and the high end Sylvania LEDs I've tested. The last batch, all 50 had a slight pink tint like pretty much every other warm white LED lamp I've tested. The difference is subtle, it might bother some people depending on the installation. I'm about as picky as it gets, and in all the places we use PAR30s, it hasnt bothered me yet. Wallwashing white walls it would probably bother me.


If the failure rate stays low with these over the next couple years, I will consider this experiment a resounding success.


I ordered another 10 PAR20s for my dad, but other than that, I wont be ordering anything else until/unless we do some remodeling that involves installing more PAR fixtures.


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## Jiri (Oct 21, 2015)

Does anyone know, what actual amount of lumens does this cheap Aliexpress LED flashlight really have?? It surely isn't 2000 lumen. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/high...able-LED-Torch-penlight-free/32243736117.html


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## RoGuE_StreaK (Oct 21, 2015)

Jiri said:


> It surely isn't 2000 lumen.


Nah, out be a factor about, say, 20... They use either an XR-E or XP-E, if a Q5 bin (which may be doubtful, seems to have just been a buzzword they all pick up on), even if pushed to max rated current of 700mA then lumens _at the emitter_ would be a little over 200. Expect quite a bit of loss with the aspheric setup, so I would guess an absolute max of 150 OTF (out the front).

Check out the "budget lights" sub-forum for something along the lines of "Sipik-68 clones". I've got several of these (from different sources, mainly banggood), for cheapies they are really very good for having lying around the place.


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## Jiri (Oct 22, 2015)

RoGuE_StreaK said:


> Nah, out be a factor about, say, 20... They use either an XR-E or XP-E, if a Q5 bin (which may be doubtful, seems to have just been a buzzword they all pick up on), even if pushed to max rated current of 700mA then lumens _at the emitter_ would be a little over 200. Expect quite a bit of loss with the aspheric setup, so I would guess an absolute max of 150 OTF (out the front).
> 
> Check out the "budget lights" sub-forum for something along the lines of "Sipik-68 clones". I've got several of these (from different sources, mainly banggood), for cheapies they are really very good for having lying around the place.



Great! Thank you very much for the info and the tips. I will check those lights. Even though I am not really interested in buying those cheap lights (I am more of a Fenix lights preson), I was asking for a friend, who does not see a point byuing a more expensive flashlight and he believes that those cheap flashlight can do the same as brand high quality flashlights. But thank you again!


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## RoGuE_StreaK (Oct 23, 2015)

Jiri said:


> I was asking for a friend, who does not see a point byuing a more expensive flashlight and he believes that those cheap flashlight can do the same as brand high quality flashlights


I'm kinda more like him  Most expensive torch I have is probably less than $15, but I try to find out exactly which emitter and driver are in there, and what the heatsinking's like. Personally I'll probably never ever spend more than $50 on a torch; guess I don't have enough bears or zombies chasing after me


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## Batang Regla (Dec 7, 2018)

hi what does this mean?



 Import clearance failure 
2018-12-07 16:21:00 [GMT+8] 

 Held by Custom 
2018-12-07 16:21:00 [GMT+8] 

 -Arrival at Destination Postal Admin (From SG/SIN to PH) 
2018-12-07 16:18:00 [GMT+8] 

 Airline arrived at destination country 
2018-12-07 12:16:00


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