# NEW!! 300mW Green & 40mW Blue handheld lasers are out...



## nero_design (Jan 26, 2006)

Okay... this just in...

Wicked Lasers just launched their own new handheld 'Spyder' series lasers a few minutes ago which compliments their existing strain of lasers. Specs are good and the output is incredibly high - and they're WATERPROOF! (not just water resistant) with a 100% duty cycle. Their Blue lasers are 20mW, 30mW and 40mW. Their new greens are 200mW - 300mW with a peak of 450mW.

http://www.wickedlasers.com/products.php?var=ok&content=spyder



Cut & Pasted (below) in case the page link shifts... they seem to be in the process of activating the new webpages now so the link above may or may not work.

Quote:
*Wicked Lasers is proud to introduce the most unique and innovative portable lasers available in the market. Wicked Lasers has designed and manufactured a brand of lasers for the avid laser enthusiast as well as the serious laser professional.

The Spyder Series from Wicked Lasers is the next generation of portable laser technology. Available in two colors, green up to 300mW, and blue up to 40mW, the Spyder Series is the one and only defenitive laser - made by laser specialists for laser specialists. Unique features of the Spyder Series include:

• Can be used underwater
• Constant On/Off button
• Compact design with built-in heat sink
• Lanyard Loop
• Stealth Military Black Finish
• High Efficiency lithium power cells
• Ultra Efficient power consumption
• No duty cycle – 100% Continuous Operation
• No heat buildup
• Very Stable Output*

Hey, I don't know about you guys but this is kind of exciting. Looking forward to seeing them in action. The action shots of the Blues should be quite interesting.


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## alaskawolf (Jan 26, 2006)

very nice but pricy


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## pinball (Jan 26, 2006)

idd there very expensive.
but like with everything else in this world :you get where you pay for 
cant wait to see some pictures of that 300 mw badass :naughty:


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## laserbokkie (Jan 26, 2006)

wicked pays like 10% to the manufacturer of what he resells them....support their monopoly?
let's find 100 ppl who want one and let's do a group buy under someones company name...


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## badhorsey (Jan 26, 2006)

Hah, I'll wait... prices will nosedive once the Playstation 3 launches and blue laser diodes become more commonplace.


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## LASERSforLIFE (Jan 26, 2006)

oh man, our discount promo codes [xxxx] will really help when people are buying this new spyder series. these are niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice... but so expensive. I want one though.

removed code; see announcement.
Kiessling


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## Robban (Jan 26, 2006)

LASERSforLIFE said:


> oh man, our discount promo codes [xxxx] will really help when people are buying this new spyder series. these are niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice... but so expensive. I want one though.


I suggest you read the sticky about referalls.


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## jellyfish414 (Jan 26, 2006)

"wicked pays like 10% to the manufacturer of what he resells them....support their monopoly?
let's find 100 ppl who want one and let's do a group buy under someones company name..."

Laserbokkie, what do you mean by that? Is WL not the manufacturer of these lasers as they've claimed to be? 

These Spyder lasers look cool but what's their legal status here in the US as opposed to their other lasers?


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## Cybris (Jan 26, 2006)

jellyfish414 said:


> "wicked pays like 10% to the manufacturer of what he resells them....support their monopoly?
> let's find 100 ppl who want one and let's do a group buy under someones company name..."
> 
> Laserbokkie, what do you mean by that? Is WL not the manufacturer of these lasers as they've claimed to be?
> ...



I think they get them from CNI lasers. I think they are legal indoors. 5mw and under is legal outdoors.:touche:


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## Athoul (Jan 26, 2006)

According to wicked, these lasers are manufactured by them not CNI. This was revealed by Wicked on their forums.


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## Cybris (Jan 26, 2006)

Athoul said:


> According to wicked, these lasers are manufactured by them not CNI. This was revealed by Wicked on their forums.



I wonder is it all manufactured by them, like the diode, casing, buttons, etc.


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## comozo (Jan 26, 2006)

jellyfish414 said:


> "wicked pays like 10% to the manufacturer of what he resells them....support their monopoly?
> let's find 100 ppl who want one and let's do a group buy under someones company name..."
> 
> Laserbokkie, what do you mean by that? Is WL not the manufacturer of these lasers as they've claimed to be?
> ...



The letter of the law states to paraphrase any laser device which does not meet FDA approval is illegal to import or sell in this country no if's, ands or buts. They are not illegal to own though. Read the sticky thread.


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## Athoul (Jan 26, 2006)

They use sony diodes, so they don't manufacture all the parts but probably assemble the unit.


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## nc987 (Jan 26, 2006)

id have to finance those lasers. Itll be a cold day in hell before I pay that much for a laser pointer.


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## PhotonWrangler (Jan 26, 2006)

Athoul said:


> According to wicked, these lasers are manufactured by them not CNI. This was revealed by Wicked on their forums.



Umm, ya mean the forums that they censor?


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## lasercrazy (Jan 26, 2006)

They are indeed nice, but like most of the WL lasers they are illegal to import into the US. I'd rather spend the extra and get an appoved and legal laser.


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## deezdrama05 (Jan 26, 2006)

awesome!!! but you would have to lon off the title for your car to afford one.


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## imbolc (Jan 26, 2006)

Looks good, but the "water proofing technology", shock resistance, "passive thermal cooling technology" sounds suspect. Need to get a review from CPF on this before buying.


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## RadarGreg (Jan 26, 2006)

You know, they look almost exactly like the Astro Aimer from HotechUSA. I suspect someone is doing the build for them.:ironic:


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## nemul (Jan 26, 2006)

ummm blue laser or 5 months rent, blue laser or 5 months rent.. lmao


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## nero_design (Jan 27, 2006)

Wicked is apparently using new (and probably quite pricey) Sony diodes in these new 'Spyder' Series lasers. And they have their own manufacturing plant now. The cost of Blue diodes should drop over the next two years but only when other manufacturers are producing similar diodes and outputs as this will force Sony to be more competitive.

As for "illegality", ( https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/76273 ) you should note that anything at all in the Class 3B range is subject to FDA guidelines. Besides, where do you think all the US sold CNI lasers come from to begin with? (Answer: China) ...I was looking at Laserglow's models just last night which are likewise high powered. Anyone owning a modded laser or buying a 3B is supposed to be sensible with it and you won't find this sort of thing on a typical store shelf. I think they're supplying US forces with a variety of units and these new ones (being waterproof) are probably ideal for desert and tropical search & rescue conditions. Lithium 123A batteries are likewise ideal for their sustained output levels and extremely long shelf life. For what they are, their specs are pretty cool per $. Curious to hear from anyone who gets to handle/use one (either wavelength).

And now....I must go sell a few more pints of blood...


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## jellyfish414 (Jan 27, 2006)

When this was a big argument a few months ago (the legality of WL) I emailed the FDA to ask. It took about six weeks to get a response, but the agent who finally wrote back indicated WL is not authorized to distribute in the United States and that they will "continue to investigate Wicked Lasers and put more effort into curbing the importion of illegal lasers" whatever that means. (Personally, I take it to mean they don't really care :lolsign: )

The agent didn't quite explain why they were illegal, but from what I've read here, 3B lasers must have safety features such as a turn-key lock and a delay. 

Check out Laserglow's page on the legality of the new Hercules model:http://www.laserglow.com/hppointers.html They have a nice discussion of modified laser pointers vs "certified portable lasers."


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## imbolc (Jan 27, 2006)

FDA on WL "DETENTION WITHOUT PHYSICAL EXAMINATION"
http://www.fda.gov/ora/fiars/ora_import_ia9504.html


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## nero_design (Jan 28, 2006)

The addition of 'safety' features doesn't affect FDA rating, legality and/or approval of such items. To quote the link posted by *imbolc*above: 

*This alert does not cover detention of shipments of laser
pointers, laser levels, laser gunsights, laser light show
projectors, laser pointer key chains, and similar products
where:

(1) there is not an emission indicator;
(2) there is not a separate beam attenuator; or
(3) the certification and identification information is in the
instructions for use rather than on the product itself.*

The main issue that the FDA had was with 'incorrectly labelled and non-labelled' lasers... and frankly, that's quite understandable. Who wants a 15mW keyring laser when being it's sold as a 'harmless 2mW pointer'? I'm in Australia & we just don't have such scrutiny or concern with private imports....yet. 
_____________________________________

I think it's great seeing Blue lasers at last in a portable manner. It's a shame that they require the Lithium 123As over AAA batteries but I think that the 3 hours continuous use by far exceeds the 10 minutes of use that the old twin-6volt HeNe pointers would offer.
_____________________________________

Has anyone here used a 473nm blue laser in front of friends yet? What was their general reaction or response to the colour?


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## exterminate (Jan 28, 2006)

3499.99 for a 40mw blue laser....

if only i was crazy.


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## kushy04 (Jan 28, 2006)

I beleive I am crazy...

I beleive I shall get one...

I beleive I am referring to the 300mW greenie...

I beleive I can take it into the pool with me...

I beleive I shall have fun...


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## The_LED_Museum (Jan 28, 2006)

nero_design said:


> Has anyone here used a 473nm blue laser in front of friends yet? What was their general reaction or response to the colour?


I'lll fess up to doing this...and one of the only times it operated reasonably properly too.
Two of my best friends take me out for birthday pizza every September, and this time, I had the blue laser pointer in my bag. I whipped it out when we got to the restaraunt and sat down after placing our order. They seemed almost mesmerised by the color of the beam, and they're not flashaholics - they're the kind of people who would keep a plastic 2-D cell incandescent flashlight in the garbage drawer for emergency use only.
But they really did like the color of the blue laser beam, tell ya what. :thumbsup:


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## nero_design (Jan 28, 2006)

Interesting! I've heard that the blue beam colour is quite mesmerising. Quite a few people have said that they find it unusual since they only get to see that colour on the more powerful Argons. I've always been fond of the beam colour in the Argon lasers but the new DPSS blues (especially the new Deep Blues) are supposed to be quite interesting on the eyes.


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## The_LED_Museum (Jan 28, 2006)

I have a single line TEM00 argon ion laser emitting radiation at 488nm at 16mW, and (currently away for warranty repair) a blue DPSS laser emitting radiation at 473nm at ~170µW, and I definitely prefer the wavelength of the DPSS laser - though in no way am I poo-pooing the argon ion laser. 

I've heard of blue DPSS lasers emitting at approximately 444nm; directly-injected blue diode lasers are made that emit at 440nm if you're willing to pay the price (~$5,000.00 the last time I checked - and that's just for the bare laser diode with no optics, case, or PSU). I've never seen either of these though, so I cannot offer any commentary on the beam color.


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## Lunarmodule (Jan 29, 2006)

I'm really salivating at these new models. First Laserglow rolling out the triple D cell 300mW Hercules and now these gems! This was the stuff of dreams six months ago when I really wanted something like it. The prices are even reasonable given the performance levels, although most of you are doing double takes on the blue units. 

I have a 50mW 473nm blue laser from Extreme and it is stunning to behold, much more subdued than a 532nm green but much more enticing to view IMHO. Most benchtop units retail for $3000 or so for under 100mW in blue, so the prices of the WL Spyders are not too out of line, just steep. Theres nothing else to compare them to, the previous <5mW blue pointers were just pathetic so these should actually be worthwhile, albeit lottery-winner expensive. I think 20-30mW of blue is necessary to have a nice viewable beam. 

I cant wait until some lucky dog acquires one of these and posts a thread here. I might have to sell off some things and go after one of these, most likely a blue unit as I have a strong preference for the color.


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## Raccoon (Feb 3, 2006)

Does anyone here REALLY want a laser rated at "300mW with a peak of 450mW"? Does anyone here even know what that MEANS?

It means that these lasers are extremely unstable and unreliable. A laser that has an average output of 300mW with a "peak" of 450mW, means that it also swings down to 150mW. While using this laser, you will notice extreme modulation and disappointment.

PS. Wicked Laser does not "manufacture" (read: fabricate) ANYTHING. They only "create" (read: modify) existing lasers with ultra-cool gimmick names.


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## Athoul (Feb 6, 2006)

Actually the lasers are garaunteed not to go below 300mW, they do infact make their own lasers though not all their models. The 450mW is most liekly the initial startup spike that all DPSS lasers experience.

They might assemble their products and not make the actual parts, but this would also give you a unique end product depending on their design. However they are slowely starting to come out with their own unique products.


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## bootleg2go (Feb 7, 2006)

Raccoon is right,
Large peak power measurements that vary much from the average power output is a sign of instability. If the peak power is more than 8-10% more than the average power output, then it's too unstable and could die at any time. So for instance a 200mW (average output power) laser that has peak power output of greater than 220mW, will have a much reduced lifetime and the higher the percentage of peak vs average output the worse and shorter it life will be.
A 300mw with 450mw peak output would have 50% instability and it's life would be super short and die at any time. A 200mW average that peaks at 250mW would have 25% instability and not really last long either.

Any of mine that have over 10% instability over a 20 second period measured at .1 second intervals, is not sold and goes back for repair/replacement.

Since the new power meter I now have can sample of time and give statistics on the output plot, I see typical instability of 4-8% over a 20 second period on my lasers.

Also with peak measurements, it goes both ways. You can't just say a minimum of XXXmW with peaks up to XXXmW. The instability goes both ways, negative too. A 300mW laser with 450mW peaks is going to have some valleys as low as 150mW at times.

bootleg2go


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## KBlaserman (Feb 7, 2006)

From what I know all CNI and Lambda lasers have 20% instability, as far as i know Lambda at least will not let you send a laser back because it has more than 10% of instability. Unless the laser has a system with TEC and VDC Driver it will always have stability problems.



Not to disagree with you but I have had lasers with the standard 20% instability last me for over 4 years with good care.

ALSO: any company that says their laser won’t dip down didn’t tell you that, when you use your laser you will drain your batteries and then the output will be greatly lowered.


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## alaskawolf (Feb 7, 2006)

Raccoon said:


> Does anyone here REALLY want a laser rated at "300mW with a peak of 450mW"?
> .


 
Yes


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## bootleg2go (Feb 7, 2006)

KBlaserman said:


> From what I know all CNI and Lambda lasers have 20% instability, as far as i know Lambda at least will not let you send a laser back because it has more than 10% of instability. Unless the laser has a system with TEC and VDC Driver it will always have stability problems.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Most bench top TEC cooled lasers have their stability rate in % change over 4 or more hours of sampling. I agree that all the handheld laser will vary in output as their battery voltage/charge decreases and would have horrible stability over hours of testing if a power supply was used to as the voltage source. Over that amount of time, TEC cooling is needed for both the diode and seperately for the crystal as they each have different thermal coefficients. What I measure is stability during the 1st 20 seconds before the battery drops in output. 
I have no problem returning any product that does not meet the spec agreed upon with the manufacturer/distributor. I buy in large quantities an have some say in what is aceptable and what is not.

I also test for any movement of the beam to the target over the test period and the beam moving around much is a sign of instability as well.
What meter do you use to test your lasers with before shipping them to customers?

bootleg2go


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## KBlaserman (Feb 7, 2006)

That’s great that you have the opportunity to have a say in what goes on, most other people do not have that luxury.
 
Its funny how when you open a site you have 1000x people against you and would only wish anything better that you get hit buy a bus. I have had people sit outside my house and call me just to put me down; I don’t understand the community for lasers, quite odd. I hope you haven’t had the same experience as me.


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## bootleg2go (Feb 8, 2006)

KBlaserman said:


> That’s great that you have the opportunity to have a say in what goes on, most other people do not have that luxury.
> 
> Its funny how when you open a site you have 1000x people against you and would only wish anything better that you get hit buy a bus. I have had people sit outside my house and call me just to put me down; I don’t understand the community for lasers, quite odd. I hope you haven’t had the same experience as me.



In the beginning I didn't have much clout, but my orders got larger and more frequent and that helps, you will see.

I don't understand??? Are you getting 1000's of people against you emailing and calling you on the phone? I usually only get ~30 messages with questions each day and that is with my site getting ~70,000 hits per day, no phone calls as that number is given out except upon request or to current customers.

Bootleg2go


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## KBlaserman (Feb 8, 2006)

No that was an exaggeration, but it seems more are against me than with me. they don’t even know what they are talking about and they will put me down.

 

I had one guy say.

 

"Great... more illegal, overpriced, high-power laser pointers. Just what the world needs. 

I especially like the part where the "IN STOCK" icon represents items that are NOT IN STOCK and usually ship within 1 - 2 business weeks. What is a "business week" anyway? "

 

Some people are just ignorant..

 

U advertised by being friendly and by word of mouth right..

 

Also I don’t give out my phone #. I do have a fax and email though.


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## rsilvers (Feb 22, 2006)

Jellyfish,

I am not sure why you are so excited to discourage people from buying from Wicked. Wicked is not being deceptive. They are correct that their lasers are legal to "own" in the US and they say many times they are dangerous if misused.

BBlaserman, you state that the new Spyder series is 'very illegal.' That is false information. I believe you say this because they do not have a beam attenuator or key lock. They are sold as "OEM industrial portable laser components." That is an acceptable variance under FDA regs. Edmund Scientific sells OEM IIIb laser components in the US and has for years.

The FDA is correct that 'high powered laser pointers' are illegal to sell,
but the Spyder series is not sold as a consumer product or a laser pointer.

Athoul,

"You can not sell 3b lasers in the USA unless they meet the safety requirments by the CDRH"

That is not true for OEM industrial laser components.

"but there is no law that says you can either"

Sigh. That is not how laws work.

If you import a Spyder with the intention of integrated it into/onto another product (such as packaging it with a telescope), it is 100% legal. Wicked makes it clear with a user-agreement. Once you have it, you can do what you want with it. Here is a small part of their user agreement:

"Legal Notice for US Customers: Wicked Lasers products are class IIIb lasers. They exceed the US FDA power limitation of 5mW for import as laser pointers or for general use and are classified as OEM (original equipment manufacturer) laser components for industrial use or for incorporation into another product in accordance with 21 CFR (code of Federal Regulations) 1040.10 and 1040.11."

Anyone who says they are illegal to import are just plain wrong.


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## Raccoon (Feb 23, 2006)

Welcome rsilvers, congratulations on your first post!

You sound like a naive WL forum moderator, or perhaps you're Chris himself. In either case, it's not really worth the energy to tear apart your post.

I will state this though for other readers who might be confused by your incorrect information.

OEM industrial components and consumer retail products are two completely different things. OEM components, by definition, are parts and pieces of a greater machine. A laser pointer is a stand alone device and can not (and would not) be interfaced with a larger industrial system. The laser pointers sold at WL are consumer retail products, batteries included!

Furthermore, OEM products are sold in quantity to business entities, and usually at a reduced price. While WL's lasers are sold individually to end-consumers at outrageously inflated retail prices.

There are no tricks or loop-holes by "calling" something OEM, thereby making it legal. They are ILLEGAL. The definition is tried and tested, and WL fails on all points. This is why US Customs is intercepting and destroying lasers that WL ships to the United States. It is advized that US residents do not throw their money away.


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## CLHC (Feb 23, 2006)

Wow! Way to go on your first post as Raccoon said RSilvers!

Enjoy!


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 23, 2006)

Regardless of any purchase agreement that may be signed off on, WL does not market their lasers as OEM. Never on their site to they show them as integrated parts of other machines. 

It's just one final attempt by WL to justify selling an illegal product.

Raccoon is correct. If WL were legal, there wouldn't be FDA warning letters and detention alerts. 

WL and it's supporters never address the actual issue. If these lasers are legal, why is the FDA siezing their shipments (or at least trying to)? Why are there these FDA documents naming them specifically as violaters of FDA regs?


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## nero_design (Feb 23, 2006)

jellyfish414 said:


> Regardless of any purchase agreement that may be signed off on, WL does not market their lasers as OEM. Never on their site to they show them as integrated parts of other machines


Wicked DO INDEED advertise their products as OEM and this is something that they have touted since I discovered them last year. It was the fact that ALL their lasers are OEM and not 'modded' that convinced me to buy from them. Modded lasers have a more limited lifespan.



> It's just one final attempt by WL to justify selling an illegal product.


 They're all legal where I live. What on earth are you still ranting about this? 



> Raccoon is correct. If WL were legal, there wouldn't be FDA warning letters and detention alerts.


 Ah. for USA customers there are restrictions for purchasing ANY laser over 5mW. No exceptions. Of course, none of you seem to care about that from what I have seen. As for the FDA letter, that was NOT a "final letter", that was a private communication between the FDA and WL made available through the FOIA. The letter is nonenforcable and at this stage invited WL to respond. Even if their enquiery and invitation to WL evolves, you won't read about the results unless a ruling is made that results in an enforcable order. I don't see that happenning. But if it does, I'm sure you'll visit the forums to tell us ALL about it.



> WL and it's supporters never address the actual issue. If these lasers are legal, why is the FDA siezing their shipments (or at least trying to)? Why are there these FDA documents naming them specifically as violaters of FDA regs?


 If you can point out to me the very last time a shipment was seized and under what circumstances, I'd personally be very amused to hear about it. 

I see that once again, *Jellyfish414*... you're trying to jack a thread. I've posted the information on the new lasers simply because I've been fortunate to have advanced knowledge on the new Spyder products. And I'm sharing that experience with others here who share my passion for lasers. I also share advance knowledge on digital cameras on related websites and have many times been accused of being an employee or even a 'shill' for Canon cameras. I just happen to like the Canon image quality, low noise and accurate colour reproduction... plus, having worked in camera retail, I have a lot of insight into the quality compared to other brands. Hence, I have canon compacts, waterproof cameras, SLRs, advanced digital compacts and even a Canon video camera. I'm happy with the brand and I'll stick with it until I'm no longer satisfied with the product. 

Personally, I'd like to see more announcements from the suppliers and manufacturers of other laser products here as well. I get a little excited when I see something new like a yellow laser or a blue handheld. I'm not endorsing the new Spyders at this early stage because the samples I am photographing are pre-production test models. But I am certainly happy to share the information ahead of official announcements if permitted by the manufacturer or supplier. One thing you WON'T catch me doing here (or on the Canon forums) is lying about a product.


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## jkaiser3000 (Feb 23, 2006)

why is it that every time there's a thread about a wl's product, the conversation always ends up in the same direction?, I think there are MORE THAN ENOUGH threads about the legality of importing/owning/using wl's products already, so let's try to give it a rest.

If marco is kind enough to share his excitement about using these new lasers, well, let's just enjoy the pics and vids. I for one would like to see more of them, rather than waste our time ranting about something we're not totaly sure of.

Actually, I'd rather own one of these lasers than see it in a vid, but what the heck, I can't afford one yet 

So, marco, keep up the good work, and don't let people stop you from sharing with us :goodjob:


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## rsilvers (Feb 23, 2006)

WL says the following in their agreement:

"Wicked Lasers products are class IIIb lasers. They exceed the US FDA power limitation of 5mW for import as laser pointers or for general use and are classified as OEM (original equipment manufacturer) laser components for industrial use or for incorporation into another product in accordance with 21 CFR (code of Federal Regulations) 1040.10 and 1040.11. You are fully responsible for the safe application of this component and its use. "

They make it very clear they are not for general use and are for industrial use or for incorporating into another product and that they are dangerous if misused.

They are not misleading anyone. They ARE legal to own, period. That is a fact. They can blind someone, but so can a pen. One must be very careful, and they ship the more powerful models with safety glasses. That shows they are being considerate. But realistically, it is no more dangerous than an airsoft gun. Shoot skin, it stings. Shoot an eye, it might cause blindness.


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## comozo (Feb 23, 2006)

rsilvers said:


> WL says the following in their agreement:
> 
> "Wicked Lasers products are class IIIb lasers. They exceed the US FDA power limitation of 5mW for import as laser pointers or for general use and are classified as OEM (original equipment manufacturer) laser components for industrial use or for incorporation into another product in accordance with 21 CFR (code of Federal Regulations) 1040.10 and 1040.11. You are fully responsible for the safe application of this component and its use. "
> 
> ...



Rsilvers you really do not fully understand the argument as evidensed by your statements.


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 23, 2006)

nero_design said:


> Wicked DO INDEED advertise their products as OEM and this is something that they have touted since I discovered them last year.



Really? Where on the site are they shown as being incorportated into other products? Where does it show any kind of industrial usage? All I see is photos of lasers being flashed around like toys and being used to pop balloons, light matches, etc.



nero_design said:


> They're all legal where I live. What on earth are you still ranting about this?



Fair point. WL is legal in Australia (don't know this for a fact, but I'll take your word for it). However, you continually insist that WL's products are legal in the U.S., which they are not.



nero_design said:


> Ah. for USA customers there are restrictions for purchasing ANY laser over 5mW. No exceptions.



FINALLY! Geez, that was like pulling teeth, wasn't it? Was it really that hard a fact for you to accept? WL's products are illegal in the U.S. Finally, on this 23rd day of February, 2006, nero_design admists WL products are illegal in the U.S.



nero_design said:


> As for the FDA letter, that was NOT a "final letter", that was a private communication between the FDA and WL made available through the FOIA. The letter is nonenforcable and at this stage invited WL to respond. Even if their enquiery and invitation to WL evolves, you won't read about the results unless a ruling is made that results in an enforcable order. I don't see that happenning. But if it does, I'm sure you'll visit the forums to tell us ALL about it.



1. Who cares why it's public info? You act like I'm to blame for reading the document. If WL complied with laws, there wouldn't be such documents.

2. WL has indicated they will not respond to the letter.

3. What do you mean "the letter is nonenforceable"? U.S. government agencies have the right to enforce laws that are on the books. If you import illegal goods, you are subject to whatever penalties may be associated. WL lasers have been proven non-compliant. Buy and sell at your own risk - period, end of story.

I don't understand why it's so difficult with you. It's like you're looking at the sun and claiming it's the moon.


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 23, 2006)

BTW, this thread was dead for two weeks until someone came back and said WL's were legal. Mine was simply one of several responses. Accusing me of "jacking yet another thread" is just another diversion tactic on your part to avoid debating the actual issue.

However, you did finally admit that WL's are illegal in the U.S. and I thank you for that.


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## EGP (Feb 23, 2006)

Say Jellyfish, in your holy quest for FDA compliance, would you say these rules should apply to all laser vendors, or is it only WL that should adhere to them ?

Regards,
Erling


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## Kiessling (Feb 23, 2006)

I understand that this is indeed a hot topic, and I tend to think there is a reason for this, there is need for discussion, obviously.

However, I would like to ask all of you to concentrate this discussion on specific threads about this problem and/or the laws and regulations about lasers and their application ... AND ... please let us try to avoid destroying a lot of good threads in the maelstrom of this problem, just like this one.

We can try to get back on topic or have the thread closed now ...

bernhard


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## alaskawolf (Feb 23, 2006)

jkaiser3000 said:


> why is it that every time there's a thread about a wl's product, the conversation always ends up in the same direction?, I think there are MORE THAN ENOUGH threads about the legality of importing/owning/using wl's products already, so let's try to give it a rest.
> 
> If marco is kind enough to share his excitement about using these new lasers, well, let's just enjoy the pics and vids. I for one would like to see more of them, rather than waste our time ranting about something we're not totaly sure of.
> 
> ...


 
i agree im more interested in the products and what they can do.


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## rsilvers (Feb 23, 2006)

Ok.

I will post photos when my 200mw unit arrives. 

I will try to give the previous photos a run for their money.


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## jkaiser3000 (Feb 23, 2006)

atta boy. :rock:

that's more like it.


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 23, 2006)

EGP said:


> Say Jellyfish, in your holy quest for FDA compliance, would you say these rules should apply to all laser vendors, or is it only WL that should adhere to them ?
> 
> Regards,
> Erling



Of course they should apply to all laser vendors. I actually don't have a problem with WL's products, it's just when they deny the fact that they're not legal. 



alaskawolf said:


> So, marco, keep up the good work, and don't let people stop you from sharing with us



I don't see anyone trying to stop anyone from posting info on WL's performance capabilities. In fact, I always enjoy looking at pics. But anytime Marco or anyone else claims WL's products are perfectly legal in the U.S. you're gonna have people including myself jump in and correct the disinformation.

I'll admit this argument has made me feel stronger on the subject than I did before. I'll try to chill for a while.


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## EGP (Feb 23, 2006)

jellyfish414 said:


> Of course they should apply to all laser vendors. I actually don't have a problem with WL's products, it's just when they deny the fact that they're not legal.



Ï see. In that case, would you care to elaborate on why you're only pecking on WL and not the other vendors selling illegal class IIIb lasers ?

Note to Bernhard: Sorry about continuing this discussion, but I felt the reply from Jellyfish required an answer.

Regards,
Erling


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## imbolc (Feb 23, 2006)

This thread has gone unrepairable off topic. It's now yellow lasers and white lasers. I would very much like some feedback on the 40mw blue because it looks really nice.


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## ACMarina (Feb 23, 2006)

People are just trying to look out for themselves and others. Every time somebody acts poorly with a simple greenie, it's hyped beyond control if it needs to be or not. Nobody wants that to happen - it makes the hobby look bad. 

Kinda reminds me of "ohh, I lost the key to my windows XP disk - anybody got a copy??"

It's of especially high concern to those of us in the US. It's not about being jealous, not to me - I know there are people in other countries that can have lots of things. Nobody wants to see another person in the US try and import a laser only to have it snagged by customs, so if somebody asked what we thought about buying from Wicked I think more than a few people would jump in and discourage them. It's really hard, too, as not a lot of people here like to say where they're from. It's easy to do, just click on the User CP and put in where you're from! It makes it a lot easier, I think. I know, for example, that EGP is from Denmark. Hey, that means you don't have to worry about the USFDA!! Great!! But without knowing where someone else is from, it's kinda within a lot of people's nature to talk with others about things that could potentially harm themselves..

I don't get a chance to use my laser much, honestly. Lots of the time it's just for fun, but I do use it for actual work every now and then. I'm much more of a flashlight user, personally. You guys should look into some of those, too..


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## nero_design (Feb 23, 2006)

jellyfish414 said:


> FINALLY! Geez, that was like pulling teeth, wasn't it? Was it really that hard a fact for you to accept? WL's products are illegal in the U.S. Finally, on this 23rd day of February, 2006, nero_design admists WL products are illegal in the U.S.



Hey now, please don't put words into my mouth. What you have stated is not correct. I've been the one to point out for a very long time here that US laserists are obliged to observe the local regulations where required. I've also posted my letter on the subject of 'Class IIIB lasers' which the FDA sent to me. Laser laws in the US are sometimes extremely ambiguous which is why there is much confusion. Even the FDA is confused when pressed on information pertaining to their own set of requirments. Just because you need a license to operate a motor vehicle or even to fish, *doesn't make it illegal* to own the fishing equipment or to buy a car. The only time you'll come unstuck is if you abuse the situation and operate the items in a manner which violates local laws. What you have written in the above quote amounts to *libel slander*. Please think carefully next time.

/I only responded to this post in order to balance what was said previously and to clarify my position on this matter.


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## imbolc (Feb 23, 2006)

ACMarina said:


> Nobody wants to see another person in the US try and import a laser only to have it snagged by customs, so if somebody asked what we thought about buying from Wicked I think more than a few people would jump in and discourage them.



I really think at this stage of the discussion its much more than that. I bought from bootleg2go and there was no problems with customs because there is very little check from US to Europe. It looks like everyone who posted in this thread knows the WL website very well and in less than 5 mins I found the shipping guarantee statement at WL. Whatever it is to make this thread so off topic is not worrying about customs snagging lasers.

I'd say c'mon guys spit it out with your true feelings and end the hostility once and for all.


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## ACMarina (Feb 23, 2006)

I'll tell you what my feelings are - I don't like to wait for shipping. Regardless. I automatically hesitate more the farther the buyer -or- seller is from me. I still remember the first time I bought from someone outside the US, back when the QIII came out. I was on pins and needles until they came, and I took them out, and I played with them. I've since ordered from a few people outside the US and haven't had any problems, and I've sent things to other countries and it's been okay. I still worry, though. I've never had any dealings with WL, but I've heard stuff from people not getting what they paid for to not getting anything at all, for who knows what reason. It's not about lasers to me, there's plenty of other companies that I wouldn't order from too - there's lots of B&M stores in my community that I won't visit, too. But I'm not the type to order the best product for the least amount of money, I want the best DEAL, which might be signifigantly more expensive than the less expensive competitors. It's not a single-factor thing, not to me. I'll pay more for excellent CS. I let my dollar speak for me..


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## imbolc (Feb 23, 2006)

Either the server wasn't working or my latest post was moderated out. In any case I'm out of this thread because I have no intention of adding to arguement!


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 23, 2006)

EGP said:


> Ï see. In that case, would you care to elaborate on why you're only pecking on WL and not the other vendors selling illegal class IIIb lasers ?
> 
> Note to Bernhard: Sorry about continuing this discussion, but I felt the reply from Jellyfish required an answer.
> 
> ...



Who else sells illegal IIIb lasers? From the sites I see (laserglow, optotronics, northern optics) they all have the safety locks etc that are required. Plus, WL and their followers keep insisting they're legal - which they're not.

I'm here mostly for the argument man


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## nero_design (Feb 23, 2006)

jellyfish414 said:


> I'm here mostly for the argument man



Actually, I think you have a crush on me.

Why else would you go to such lengths to get my attention each and every day. 

/must be love.

PS. I'm married. Sorry to disappoint you.

/Wife thinks lasers are boring.


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## EGP (Feb 24, 2006)

jellyfish414 said:


> Who else sells illegal IIIb lasers? From the sites I see (laserglow, optotronics, northern optics) they all have the safety locks etc that are required



Well, you seem quite adept at digging out information when needed, so I suggest you look around a bit more in this forum and greenlasers.co.uk - you may be surprised at what you find....

I'll give you one tip to make things easier: "CandlePowerForum Special".

Regards,
Erling


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## Athoul (Feb 24, 2006)

About the stability, Wicked released a graph of one of their 200mW Spyders. While it does show an initial spike for a fraction of a second, the majority of the 17 minute test showed the beam stable as a rock at just over 200mW(assuming 1024 seconds).

Thought this might be of some use to those of you who wondered about the stability, earlier on in this thread.


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## comozo (Feb 24, 2006)

C'mon guys let's take this WL argument to C's & J's so we can point out why WL specifically and always raises the ire of most everyone. WL states on their site that they comply with strict government regulations and laws in the U.S. that's were one of the problems starts. I'll start the thread.


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## Kiessling (Feb 24, 2006)

imbolc ... no post of yours was removed or moderated, but I do see a previous post from you in this thread. You might wanna check again.

And I think this thread is trashed and this discussion needs to take place elsewhere (in the proper thread and form, mind you).

bernhard


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