# How many lumens for caving?



## batman (Sep 8, 2006)

Hi everyone!

I know this has probably been hit on previously here @ CPF but the search function only brings up headlamp discussions.
I occasionally get invites to explore caves near the Arkansas river with my friends in Muskogee, Oklahoma. The caves aren't really mapped out and are basically untouched inside..i'm pretty sure not many people go in them.
Anyhoo, I recall from childhood that it's perfectly pitch black as hell once you crawl up in a cave so in theory it shouldn't require TOO many lumens to do the job, right? Would the 3-5 lumen output of the Arc AAA-P / A2 aviator LED be enough light? 
Any comments appreciated,..I know I should use a headlamp but I'm a redneck.
Batman


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## scott.cr (Sep 8, 2006)

I'm not very experienced as far as caving goes, but I do go "mining" in the Mojave when I can. It is black-dark in the mines, as I expect it is in natural caves, but it seems that even in this environment I just can't get enough lumens: My carry light of choice is the Thor Cyclops! Might seem like overkill for such a dark environment, but it's great for illuminating things that stick out of the ceiling of tunnels (which can be real headknockers even at walking speed).

Also, the Thor is good for spotting down long shafts, drops, etc. It might be too cumbersome for a real hard-core caver though. But that huge, bright flood light is hard to beat.

I also bring a few backup lights; Surefire U2 clipped to my vest (which makes a great walking light due to its floody nature), Surefire M4 and 6P on my belt as further backup. The M4 is bright, but a bit too spotty for my liking when it's the only source of light.


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## paulr (Sep 8, 2006)

Definitely get a headlamp, that attaches to your caving helmet. People who use handheld flashlights are called "flashlight cavers" and it is a perjorative. See http://www-sop.inria.fr/agos/sis/slang.html where it describes "speleobopper" as slang for a flashlight caver and cross-references to "dufus". These guys are harsh


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## Barbarin (Sep 8, 2006)

When going caving sooner or later you will compare you light against a carbide lamp. Maybe it was your previous lamp, or there could be over there a guy using one, but the comparative is unavoidable. 
Probably a Photon Freedom is enought to get out of any cave, but you would like to see as much as possible, especially when you enter large areas, you would like to see all that pretty and strange things that thousand years and waterdrops have constructed. And in that case you need more light. 

We have done a lot of prototypes, and w ethink that the only configuration that won't make you miss a carbide lamp is a LSIII driven at 900 mA, with a HIGH QUALITY reflector.

Javier


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## chevrofreak (Sep 8, 2006)

Light colored walls?
Dark colored walls?
Wet walls?

All of those things will have an affect on how well you see in a cave, especially with LED's.

In a pitch black cave with dry light colored walls and no steep dropoffs, you could probably actually navigate pretty well with only 1 lumen.


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## ringzero (Sep 8, 2006)

Barbarin said:


> When going caving sooner or later you will compare you light against a carbide lamp. Maybe it was your previous lamp, or there could be over there a guy using one, but the comparative is unavoidable...the only configuration that won't make you miss a carbide lamp is a LSIII driven at 900 mA, with a HIGH QUALITY reflector.



Hey Barbarin.

I agree with you that there are very few electric lights that produce as good a quality and quantity of light as a good carbide lamp. I was impressed with the PT Apex, until I compared it side by side against an humble carbide lamp.

The color and amount of usable flood from a carbide is just so much better that there's no comparison. I'm still toying with the idea of getting an Apex for convenience of use, but it really can't compete with a carbide for usable flood.

I no longer do enought caving to justify buying a Stenlight, but I've read that they are nearly as good as a carbide for up close, and of course they have superior throw.


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## jtice (Sep 8, 2006)

This is hard to say.

Once you are night adapted an Arc AAA or AA is actually pretty bright,
and you COULD find your way in and out with it.
But, you wont actually see much with it.
You dont want to use some 500+ lumen light, you will just kill your night vision.
Only the large rooms, large enough to park a house in, require alot of light.

You WILL want a headlamp!!!
You WILL want your hands free to crawl around and steaqdy yourself.

I think the Arcs make great backup lights, and neck lights.
I use a Streamlight 4AA Luxeon as a hand light.
and a Stenlight as a headlamp, 
I would recommend the PT corona as a nice flood headlamp,
and I have an Apex on the way, I hear they are excellent.

~John


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## Tachion (Sep 8, 2006)

Are you buying an Apex when you already have an S7? I don’t understand?  
The S7 should outperform the Apex in just about every aspect I can think about (or read, since I don’t own either). :sigh:


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## jtice (Sep 8, 2006)

I have not seen a headlamp that will outperform the Stenlight.

I know that the Apex is not as good,
I bought it as a secondary headlamp,
I have been working around the house with dad, and I didnt have a nice headlamp to let him use, while I used the Sten.

Plus, I want to EDC it in my EDC bag, 
thought that would be better than the heavier $$$$$ Sten.

~John


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## Barbarin (Sep 8, 2006)

Do you want to make your own helmet light?

I can show you how to spend less than 40 US$ and make a wonderful one. In fact I made it just for one day, and I have been using it for a year. If so I wil post a tutorial on the "homemade" area.

One day we will manufacture our own headlamp, but meanwhile...

Javier


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## Long John (Sep 8, 2006)

Barbarin said:


> Do you want to make your own helmet light?
> 
> I can show you how to spend less than 40 US$ and make a wonderful one. In fact I made it just for one day, and I have been using it for a year. If so I wil post a tutorial on the "homemade" area.
> 
> ...



Yes Javier, please show us your ideas about it

Best regards

____
Tom


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## Barbarin (Sep 8, 2006)

OK, allow me two hours or so.


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## wasBlinded (Sep 8, 2006)

I started off with a Pelican 2630 Headlamp, which as a 1 watt Luxeon star. Most of the time, while moving through moderate sized caves, I kept it on "medium", not even using the full 1 watt. There were times I would jack it up to "high" to look around, and a few times I wished I had a bit more brightness, but it was otherwise a good choice for me for caving.

Now I have a Stenlight.


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## batman (Sep 8, 2006)

This is more complicated than I thought!


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## Calamityville_Horror (Sep 8, 2006)

I haven't gone caving in many years, but back then I used a Petzel Mega headlamp. There might have been better lamps available, but my dad had to purchase 4 (for the whole family), as well as other gear, so we compromised. I think it was about $40.

Anyways, it ran on 3 C's, or 3 AA's if you used the integral brackets. It's not much brighter than a comparably powered Maglite (which is what, 15 or so lumens on fresh cells?). And it has the same general output curve. Which is to say, fairly dim most of the time. Even then, the output was still easily usable for 6-8 hours. It served me well for >50 caving trips.

You really won't need the high output once your eyes are dark adjusted. Unless you are trying to annoy the people you are caving with. :naughty:

As an aside, a headlamp will make you trip much safer and more enjoyable than a handheld light. I also strongly suggest a good helmet.


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## joema (Sep 8, 2006)

batman said:


> ...it's perfectly pitch black as hell once you crawl up in a cave so in theory it shouldn't require TOO many lumens to do the job, right? Would the 3-5 lumen output of the Arc AAA-P / A2 aviator LED be enough light?...


As already stated, you need a headlamp, plus several other lights. Each person in a cave should have at least three light sources on them.

I wouldn't take a "nice" light in a most caves, such as a Surefire U2. Lights get banged up pretty badly in caves. If it's not a "crawling" cave, but just a walking cave, I guess you could take Surefire lights.

Although it's absolutely dark in caves, you often want plenty of light. Caves just absorb light. A variable output light is useful. Some suggestions:

- Photon or clone light on neck lanyard, in pocket or taped to your body. That's your backup.
- Arc AAA-P. That's your "dim" light.
- Your standard hand light: a Streamlight Propoly Lux 4AA or (better yet) 3C (inexpensive, tough, plastic, good run time). http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/streamlight_propolyluxeon.htm http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/streamlight_propoly_3c.htm
- Headlamp (many choices). I like the Streamlight Argo HP, which is lightweight, has two output levels and relatively powerful: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/streamlight_argohp.htm If I went caving much I'd get a Stenlight S7: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/stenlight_s7.htm


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## batman (Sep 10, 2006)

I guess my Boyscout leaders were all wrong...as i child I often went caving with these weirdos and we all used handheld lights such as minimags, etc.


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## joema (Sep 10, 2006)

batman said:


> I guess my Boyscout leaders were all wrong...as i child I often went caving with these weirdos and we all used handheld lights such as minimags, etc.


Tom Sawyer only used candles, so you don't need fancy equipment. Of course he got lost in the cave, so maybe having better equipment is a good idea.

Actually caving is serious business and many rescues have been necessitated by novices carrying inadequate lights. The rescues aren't always successful, so I recommend being well equipped.


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## NeedMoreLight (Sep 10, 2006)

I have explored many caves, (in my time) and my lights were a 2AA headlamp (rubber head strap) with standard bulb . Backup was a minimag with a headband.


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## Long John (Sep 10, 2006)

NeedMoreLight said:


> I have explored many caves, (in my time) and my lights were a 2AA headlamp (rubber head strap) with standard bulb . Backup was a minimag with a headband.



After that you titled your name:" NeedMoreLight"


Best regards

_____
Tom


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## NeedMoreLight (Sep 10, 2006)

Well.......I guess I stepped in that one.......... But this was before all the really good lights were on the market. Back when a maglight was top of the line stuff.


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## CLHC (Sep 11, 2006)

Have you seen the 2006 SureFire catalog of the HIGH output lights SF.EE Willie Hunt has for the photo shoot? Besides the headlamp/lights and SF.Beast.II there's LOTS of lumens I must say. . .


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## choppers (Sep 11, 2006)

not a caver...but I would think that that more the better??


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## batman (Sep 11, 2006)

since I'll have a natty-lite in the other hand, i don't want the flashlight to be TOO heavy anyways. :rock: I might southern engineer a headlamp together with duct-tape and a trucker hat as a back-up light incase my regualr flashlight quits on me.


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## joema (Sep 11, 2006)

choppers said:


> not a caver...but I would think that that more the better??


The National Speleological Society recommends each caver have THREE light sources, and that each light be capable of supporting the entire trip: 
http://www.caves.org/safety/equipment.html

Also it's best if your main light is a headlamp, with any hand-held light as backup or secondary use.

Caves are absolutely, totally dark, not just dim like the movies. With just two light sources it's easy to get stuck with no light: primary fails, you reach for your backup, drop it and can't find it.

Flashahaulics are often over-prepared, carrying several flashlights while camping, etc. Caving is much more serious. If ever there was a time for adequate lighting preparedness, caving is it.


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## cave dave (Sep 11, 2006)

I've been on a trip where 2 experienced cavers (me and a friend) were leading a college outing group of about 5 people. There were about 5 light failures on that trip. On any given trip there always seems to be at least one person whose light fails. (not just dead batteries)

You WILL need *3 sources of light*. They should all be helmet mountable.
You WILL need a *helmet*. I've banged my head so hard I've been knocked on my *** and had to wait for the stars to subside (and that was with a helmet) I would have been unconcious and bleeding without it.
I won't get all preachy this time but there are ecological and safety reason why I don't recommend caving without some sort of training through a local caving club. Check out the NSS website for your local chapter. 
http://www.caves.org/io/grottos.shtml

Back to the original question, I feel pretty comfortable navigating most caves with a minimum of 10 lumens (thats a bit brighter than a minimag). The shape of the beam can help a lot, some lights are better than others in this regard. If you have a really strong spot with little spill you can get a tunnel vision effect and have no periphial vision. 

I use a Stenlight S7 mostly on Med (12 Lm) and High (45 Lm), I rarely use the Turbo setting (70Lm) unless I am in a really big passage. I also just bought a PT Apex because I'm a headlampaholic and couldn't resist the $50 sale at EMS (now over). If you have a backup it might as well be a good one, right? So I can report on that in a month or so.

The 45 and 70 lumens can actually blind you if you are close to a wall, it can blind your friends too who are probably using 10-25 lumen lights. It also will burn through a battery pack in a couple hours. I'm sure every caver would like to have a wide beam 50 lumen light running all the time, with a 100+ lumen spot light to look into bottomless pits and all. But at some point carrying a 10 lbs of batteries and changing them every hour doesn't make sense.


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## Barbarin (Sep 11, 2006)

It took a little, but I have posted on the Homemade and Modified section how to make your own cheap, reliable and bright LED caving helmet.

Javier


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## Gene (Sep 11, 2006)

I have many caves in my area and have explored quite a few and agree with using headlamps. I've never tried it, (as I don't have one), but I was wondering if a RED LED light would work while caving?


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Sep 11, 2006)

The basic light for cave use is a decent headlamp (I said decent, you don't need 800 dollars of fancy gear to enjoy a cave with all the safety you need) and two small backups. And if you want a quality experience, avoid LEDs like the plague, at least for the main light. 10 to 35 lumens is all you need for a good caving trip, flood is more desirable than spot, although you may want to carry a small backup light with a spot beam for alternative tasks. Hands-free and lighweight are the two concepts you need to look after. BTW, leave you expensive "shelf-queens" at home, as they will look like you put them under some industrial grinder.

Cheers.


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## Handlobraesing (Sep 12, 2006)

uh.. this is like asking "How many RWHP for commuter car?" 

It would be helpful if you tell us how long you plan to stay in the cave. If you plan on being in there for HOURS and you desire a very bright light, I would suggest looking into carbide light.


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## conor (Sep 13, 2006)

All you need is a maglight.

Didn't anyone watch the movie "The Descent" =p


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