# Mag ROP or Mag85?



## mvyrmnd (Oct 27, 2009)

I'm currently hunting through the B/S/T's and have a price on each. Both are within a few dollars of each other.

If you were going to buy/build youself a Mag mod, which would you go for?


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## Crenshaw (Oct 27, 2009)

Mag85, by farrrr

about 300lumens more

Crenshaw


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## Kestrel (Oct 27, 2009)

It's less expensive & easier to build the ROP, but if you're purchasing one already built, I think that the Mag85 gets the nod because the bi-pin bulbs are a bit less expensive. I've had both (sold the Mag85's) but had more fun with the ROP. YMMV.


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## mvyrmnd (Oct 27, 2009)

I'm buying an already built flashlight.

The ROP has a cammed reflector, which is a "must have" for me.

My only problem is finding replacement bulbs... I can't seem to find Pelican bulbs here in Oz.


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## ^^Nova^^ (Oct 27, 2009)

I found a couple of places that sell them here in AU, but they were fairly expensive. I don't remember the exact amount, but in the $18-$22 range I think, it is cheaper the get them from the US. You might want to try Batterystation, I think they have cheaper shipping. Lighthound also has them (US$10 last time I checked).

Cheers,
Nova


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## mvyrmnd (Oct 27, 2009)

^^Nova^^ said:


> I found a couple of places that sell them here in AU, but they were fairly expensive. I don't remember the exact amount, but in the $18-$22 range I think, it is cheaper the get them from the US. You might want to try Batterystation, I think they have cheaper shipping. Lighthound also has them (US$10 last time I checked).
> 
> Cheers,
> Nova


Thanks Nova!


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## bigchelis (Oct 27, 2009)

I had the WA1185 in my Surefire M6 and the beam was almost all flood:shakehead

Now I have a ROP Low and honestly it has soo much throw it puts a smile on my face. The High bulb ROP is to my eyes less throw and more floody, but not as floody as the WA1185.

I did see a WA1185 in a 2.5 fivemega Bezel and holly crap it has throw to boot, but I dont like the added size.

I vote for the ROP. Less expensive more runtime and more throw..

Regards,
bigC


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## mvyrmnd (Oct 27, 2009)

Good advice bigchelis, cheers!


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## vestureofblood (Oct 27, 2009)

My advice is to purchase M*g85 here but it is possible that my opinion is a tincy bit biased . Good luck with what ever you decide.


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## KiwiMark (Oct 27, 2009)

I found the question confusing - what does 'or' mean?
Buy both! (I can't believe no one has said this yet)

Mag85 to 'wow' others.
ROP for a day to day useful flashlight.


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## maxspeeds (Oct 28, 2009)

Build a Mag Rop Low. Thats the best bang for your buck. Bright enough, and great runtime. Also, very very very cheappppp


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## mvyrmnd (Oct 28, 2009)

KiwiMark said:


> I found the question confusing - what does 'or' mean?
> Buy both! (I can't believe no one has said this yet)
> 
> Mag85 to 'wow' others.
> ROP for a day to day useful flashlight.


KiwiMark,

I'd love to take your advice, but due to budgetary constraints, one of them would need to be donated.

Any offers? Your donation would be tax-deductable!


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## RichS (Oct 28, 2009)

KiwiMark said:


> Mag85 to 'wow' others.
> ROP for a day to day useful flashlight.


 
Really?? I beg to differ. 

Build a Mag85 with AW 3-mode switch. Use a 3C Mag with 3xLi-ions. Then yes, you have a "wow" light, but you also have an extremely useful day to day flashlight. How does 60 minutes of runtime at 1300 lumens sound? Not to mention the runtime you will get at 30% and 60% of max... Need lower output for close or medium range use? - click the clicky to one of the lower levels. 

Not enough throw?? I beg to differ. Take a look at it at 140 yards - with standard mag-sized reflector - compared to the WA1111 or M6 HO-M6R: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/245617

1185 current draw is around ~3.2A compared to ~4.5A on the ROP. More than a little easier on li-ions, not to mention you won't be tripping the protection curcuit..

I have my Mag85 ready to grab any time I walk out the door at night. The ROP was my first Mag mod and it was great, then the Mag64. But I settled on the Mag85 long ago as my super bright and practical go-to light.

ROP vs. Mag85? No contest - Mag85.


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## Kestrel (Oct 28, 2009)

maxspeeds said:


> Build a Mag Rop Low. Thats the best bang for your buck. Bright enough, and great runtime. Also, very very very cheappppp


The OP is looking at purchasing either of them used, which is generally cheaper than putting one together from new parts.



RichS said:


> 1185 current draw is around ~3.2A compared to ~4.5A on the ROP. More than a little easier on li-ions, not to mention you won't be tripping the protection curcuit.


 


Hold on a sec, regarding your citing of a current draw on the ROP. Looking at my notes from Lux's bulb data for the two most popular bulbs for the ROP: the 3853-H and the 3854-H

3853-H @ 7.5v : 3.4 amps, ~700 lumens, max voltage 9.8v (therefore more 'headroom' @ 7.5v and probably more bulb life). ElectronGuru recommends this bulb for 2xLiIon.
3854-H @ 7.5v : 4.5 amps, ~1300 lumens, max voltage 8.5v (therefore a 'whiter' beam @ 7.5v and probably less bulb life). ElectronGuru recommends this bulb for 6xNiMH, which from what I understand is a more appropriate choice for this slightly lower-voltage bulb.
Edit: these lumen figures are from Lux's data re: calculations from the AWR hotrater, and not calculated from actual lux measurements.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/bulbs/3854-HROP.jpg


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## RichS (Oct 28, 2009)

Kestrel said:


> 3854-H @ 7.5v : 4.5 amps, ~1300 lumens, max voltage 8.5v (therefore a 'whiter' beam @ 7.5v and probably less bulb life). ElectronGuru recommends this bulb for 6xNiMH, which from what I understand is a more appropriate choice for this slightly lower-voltage bulb.


Wow, really?? This is the bulb I ran, but at 1300 lumens it would be right up their with the Mag85. In my experience the Mag85 was a big step up in output compared to the 3854-H ROP. Maybe someone who has both can do a quick comparison?


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## bigchelis (Oct 28, 2009)

RichS said:


> Wow, really?? This is the bulb I ran, but at 1300 lumens it would be right up their with the Mag85. In my experience the Mag85 was a big step up in output compared to the 3854-H ROP. Maybe someone who has both can do a quick comparison?


 


I actually had the WA1185 in my Surefire M6 w/ 3 AW 17650 cells. MrGman tested it for me and I got this:
SF M6 Host, WA1185___,__3X_AW17670________Incandescent___1061.7,_____3 sec_______,
SF M6 Host, WA1185___,__3X_AW17670________Incandescent____973.8,____30 sec_______,
SF M6 Host, WA1185___,__3X_AW17670________Incandescent____917.8,____60 sec_______,
SF M6 Host, WA1185___,__3X_AW17670________Incandescent____878.5,___120 sec_______,
SF M6 Host, WA1185___,__3X_AW17670________Incandescent____880.4,___180 sec_______,


I know the ROP 3854H will suffer from fast drop in OTF too because I got 3.30A at the tail in a 2C Mag w/ 2 IMR C cells.

The WA1185 is awesome for those who need a ton of light with tons of flood. Honestly; the ROP H bulbs both 3853 and 3854 have similar beam pattern to the WA1185. They are all floody type of beam with a ton of OTF lumens.

If you like a tighter beam go with ROP L bulbs. 12~16 watts of incan power even with a tight beam gives plenty of spill for me. 

ROP 3854L = tight beam with more throw
WA1185 = similar to 3854H with almost identical power, but OTF to be determined on ROP bulbs.


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## Databyter (Oct 28, 2009)

> The ROP has a cammed reflector, which is a "must have" for me.



I have a cammed Mag85 Works great. It's not a problem. I use an FM deep reflector, but there are other ways to do it. the bulb isn't too big to use a cam with a normal cammed metal reflector.

Also my 85 is not "floody" unless I want it to be, Of course it spills more light, because there IS more light, but you can make the beam how you want it to be whether by manual focusing or a cammed setup.

Basically, what RichS said.

Cheers


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## RichS (Oct 28, 2009)

bigchelis said:


> I actually had the WA1185 in my Surefire M6 w/ 3 AW 17650 cells. MrGman tested it for me and I got this:
> SF M6 Host, WA1185___,__3X_AW17670________Incandescent___1061.7,_____3 sec_______,
> SF M6 Host, WA1185___,__3X_AW17670________Incandescent____973.8,____30 sec_______,
> SF M6 Host, WA1185___,__3X_AW17670________Incandescent____917.8,____60 sec_______,
> ...


This is good info. Although I would never recommend running the 1185 on 1600mAH cells. I run it on AW 'C' 3300mAH cells for ~55 minutes of runtime. I would hope the overall output is greater and the gradual decline in output much less than with 17670 cells.


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## Mjolnir (Oct 28, 2009)

I doubt that the 3854H is anywhere near 1300 OTF lumens. It definitely does not have double the output of the 3853H. I have both bulb sets, and the 3854H with 2 IMR 26650 cells at about 4.1 volts each (any higher might blow the bulb) is not twice as bright as the 3853H at 4.2V per cell. I would estimate that the initial voltage under load would be about 8 volts (quickly declining to about 7.8 volts) for the 3853H, and probably about 7.8 volts for the 3854H. The 3853 draws about 3.3 amps, and the 3854 draws around 4.3. 
This puts the 3854 initially at about 33 watts, and the 3853 at about 26 watts. Keep in mind that this is with IMR cells, which will probably drive the 3854H higher than nimh cells (since they have a higher voltage).
If the 3854H is really 1300 lumens, then the efficiency would be about 40 lumens per watt, which is not likely for an incandescent. The 3853 would therefore be about 27 lumens per watt. It doesn't seem very likely that incandescent bulbs of a similar design would have such difference efficiencies. The 3854 is being overdriven a fair amount more than the 3853, but I doubt that it is enough to make the efficiency 40 lumens per watt. If it truly is giving off 40 lumens per watt, then I can't see the bulb lasting very long at all. 
I would say that the 3854H would optimistically 900 to 1,000 bulb lumens at most when driven with IMR cells (in which case it won't last long). The 3853 is probably about 700 bulb lumens when driven with IMR cells. However, the OTF lumens will be lower for both, especially if you use a reflector with a larger opening.


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## KiwiMark (Oct 28, 2009)

RichS said:


> Build a Mag85 with AW 3-mode switch. Use a 3C Mag with 3xLi-ions. Then yes, you have a "wow" light, but you also have an extremely useful day to day flashlight. How does 60 minutes of runtime at 1300 lumens sound? Not to mention the runtime you will get at 30% and 60% of max... Need lower output for close or medium range use? - click the clicky to one of the lower levels.
> 
> ROP vs. Mag85? No contest - Mag85.



I beg to differ - ROP vs Mag85 - close contest.

3854-H vs 1185 - VERY close to the same output from 2 bulbs drawing very close to the same wattage. 3854-H = ~35W vs 1185 = ~40W
If these bulbs have similar efficiency then the output would be so close that you could only see the difference in a side by side comparison and it wouldn't be a very big difference. At 1M there would be 103 Lux vs 117 Lux output from the bulbs if Lux Luthor's tests are right. That would seem to be about the right difference considering the relative wattage.

"How does 60 minutes of run time at 1300 lumens sound?"
That sounds VERY similar to my 3854-H. I use 2 x KD 32600 cells which are 5000mAh which means the current draw is below 1C for over 60 minutes of run time. My 3854-L runs for over 2 hours and has VERY good light output.

When you compare a 2D ROP with a 3D 1185 w/AW switch you are talking about quite a big cost difference. Though for me I do actually have a spare AW switch that I am trying to decide on a use for, I'm not too sure about building a Mag85 though - it might not compare well to my Mag64430 which would beat a Mag85 on every aspect except run time on high.



mvyrmnd said:


> If you were going to buy/build youself a Mag mod, which would you go for?



For the build myself part:

ROP
Mag 2D
2 x Li-ion cells & charger
Swap reflector for Aluminium ($10-$15)
Swap lens for glass (~$6)
Buy 3854 bulbs ($8)
This build is hard to beat on value for money - you get 2 bulbs as well so you can go for more run time or more light. If you compare it to a Mag85 with AW switch then there is no comparison - the ROP wins hands down in term of value for money, not even close. If you compare to a Mag85 with a basic bi-pin adaptor then the cost is much closer, but the ROP high will be a close match for output and the biggest difference would probably be whether you want to build a 2 cell or a 3 cell Mag. I would go with the ROP to have the high/low choice though.


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## Kestrel (Oct 28, 2009)

Regarding the 3854-H @ ~1300 lumens, I am only quoting Lux's data *at 7.5 volts*. (and going back to the original data, that was the AWR hotrater prediction, there is also ~1150 lumens, calculating from measured lux. Whether a cell configuration can actually hold up to 7.5 volts (i.e. voltage sag) while delivering 4.5 amps is another story entirely. I also gather running this bulb from 2xIMR26500 is borderline , which is why I have read recommendations that this bulb be used with 6xNiMH, which won't drive it as hard as 2xIMR26500.

I'm not an expert on the 3854, but it seems to me that if you are actually delivering 4.5 amps @ 7.5 volts, you might be getting ~1150+ bulb lumens. If not, then you're not.:thinking:


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## RichS (Oct 28, 2009)

Dang Kiwimark - you just made me want to go build a 2D ROP!! If they are really that close in output from your perspective, those D li-ions must be holding the voltage much better than my 18650 build did. I'm not kidding, I'm actually considering building one now!


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## mvyrmnd (Oct 28, 2009)

Thank you all for the spirited debate!

It would seem there are pro's and con's for each.

As it stands, I've found a kind gentleman who will sell me his Mag ROP, and I'm going to take it.

As some have mentioned, the cammed reflector is a must and this has got one.

Cheers everyone!


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## KiwiMark (Oct 28, 2009)

RichS said:


> Dang Kiwimark - you just made me want to go build a 2D ROP!! If they are really that close in output from your perspective, those D li-ions must be holding the voltage much better than my 18650 build did. I'm not kidding, I'm actually considering building one now!



And why wouldn't you! I have 4 x 2D ROP Mags and one 6D ROP as well as 3 hotwires (3D, 4D & Elephant II) and 1 Malkoff LED (4D). So much fun to be had with incans! I will probably convert my 2D ROP that has the 5853-L bulb to a bi-pin using my spare AW switch - once I decide on what bulb I want to go with. Of the 4 ROP bulbs the 3853-L is the only one I don't like, 

I love the 3854-L though - much better colour half way through the battery charge (than the 3853-L), close to as low on current drain and better tolerance of higher voltages. With a 2 Amp drain the 3854-L gives a bloody good run time, but is bright with nice beam and nice colour and can survive 2 IMR cells fresh off the charger - such a good day-to-day around the house flash light with more than enough brightness for most tasks. I can also run the Kaidomain protected 32600 Li-ion cells, unlike with the 3854-H (I have to run the unprotected cells with that).


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## Wattnot (Oct 28, 2009)

mvyrmnd said:


> The ROP has a cammed reflector, which is a "must have" for me.


 
I have both a Mag85 (3D host) and an ROP (2C host) and in both cases I found the cammed reflector completely useless. All you need to do is shim it until you find the perfect spot. Departing from that spot with your cammed reflector simply ruins the beam. There is SOOOOO much output that you will notice nothing other than a hole appearing when you mess with the focus. You're not going to get any more hotspot and you're not going to get any more flood. Don't fret over a cammed reflector. You will remove the cam the very first time you use it.

PM me if you want details on my Mag85. I've been selling it on and off.


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## bjn70 (Oct 28, 2009)

I don't like the increased size of 3D mags so I built mine with a 2D mag and 8xAA adapter. I forget what bulbs I got, but there are some alternatives to the 1185 that work with 7xAA and others that work with 8xAA but provide less light but longer runtime.


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## Icebreak (Oct 29, 2009)

Many of you are running much more advanced HotWires than the two compared below. The are the two biggest baddest of my ROPs and Mag85s. My point in that thread was the variance between two formulas and even two iterations of the same light can be significant.

My experience, which does not include some of the more advanced lights described in today's thread, is that a well powered Mag85 is a much better performer than a well powered ROP.



Icebreak said:


> This comes up from time to time. Which is brighter? Is there much difference? I think it has a lot to do with perspective and some to do with how efficient the build formula is. I don't have two of the same Hotwire mods but I do have a few that are running the same lamps. Different formulas render different power.
> 
> Here's my two best performing ROP and Mag85 iterations. The ROP is using a MOP and the 85 is using a LOP. The ROP is using 6 series Elite 4500 sub C cells in a Mag 5C host. The Mag85 is using 9 GP 2200 sub C cells in a Mag 6C host.
> 
> ...


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## lctorana (Oct 29, 2009)

I love your posts, Icebreak.

And please, don't ever let them chop down your integrating tree.


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## Icebreak (Oct 29, 2009)

Integrating Tree ; )


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## RichS (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks for the beamshots Icebreak! You post clearly demonstrates the output difference that I was mentioning I also experienced in my builds. I also found the Mag85 to be a pretty substantial step up. 

I had completely forgotten about one other downside I experienced with my ROP until KiwiMark mentioned using unprotected li-ions - and that is having to triple-click the switch to bypass the li-ion battery protection circuit. I for one have never been comfortable using unprotected li-ions, and protected li-ion battery circuits are just not set high enough to allow for a single-click on with the ROP HI. Triple-clicking the switch before turning it on essentially "soft-starts" the bulb and which gets you past the circuit protection. The AW soft-start eliminates this issue, but it is not needed with the Mag85.

Unless of course the 5000mAH D li-ions from Kaidomain now have a high enough threshold to get around this. Does anyone know?


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## Icebreak (Oct 29, 2009)

I'd like to build or find a _"Mag85 with AW 3-mode switch. Use a 3C Mag with 3xLi-ions."_ Been wanting to since I first read about yours. And now I want 2D ROP. I might have the parts for that. Hmmm.


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## mvyrmnd (Nov 11, 2009)

Well, my shiny new (to me) Mag ROP arrived in the mail yesterday.

I charged up a batch of Energizer 2450 Nimh's and was instantly disappointed. They simply can't push the High bulb.

At 8.3V, they could only sustain 3.3A = 27.39W

So using some trusty cardboard and a minor mod to the spring, and replaced them with 2 unprotected 18650's.

At 7.9V I'm getting 4A = 31.6W

It's significantly brighter on the 18650's (obviously).

I'll keep the Nimh's for the Low bulb. They seem to work fine there.


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## KiwiMark (Nov 12, 2009)

mvyrmnd said:


> At 8.3V, they could only sustain 3.3A = 27.39W
> 
> So using some trusty cardboard and a minor mod to the spring, and replaced them with 2 unprotected 18650's.
> 
> At 7.9V I'm getting 4A = 31.6W



I get about 4.4A from 32600 Li-ion cells (and 1 hour run time) - but 4A is pretty good and the bulb wont blow so easily. You can also run the low bulb from 2 x Li-ion and the voltage is not even close to blow that bulb.


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## Sgt. LED (Nov 13, 2009)

Yeah I really like the 2 18650 ROP low.
:thumbsup:
Especially in a 2C.


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