# The "M85".. 2D hosted Mag85 1360/880L



## andrewwynn (Feb 7, 2006)

The title says it all really.. 







Doing research for the Mag100 and trying to find cells with some more oopmh than the CBP 1650s i discovered some real winners.. The GP2000 4/5A cell. I also discovered that they can JUST BARELY and i mean with only possibly 1mm to spare.. fit 3x3 in a 2D 3-bore host.. 

I've been soo sick for about 7 weeks that i did not get much of anything done in the lab, but about 1 week ago i finally got my battery pack assembled to try out this solution. 

HOLY CRAP it works beyond words awesome! Ok.. so these batteries don't even think the light is on since it's 'only' pulling 3.4A.. i have measured Vbat at over 12.3V under load.. and i've measured over 11V after 25minutes of operation.. means.. that my voltage setting of 11.1V is maintained for at least 80% of the runtime of the light.. runtime is estimated about 30-35 minutes.. i didn't time it.. but mathematically it's 35 minutes to the posted graph of useful output from CBP, not the '2000' rating.. I figure that'll get me a bit over 30 minutes before the low-volt cutout kicks in.

Right now i have a smooth reflector but a stippled bulb (frosted).. and the combo works really nice to have a very nice smooth beam but with tons of throw.. i've measured 40k lux, which is about what i get with a typical Mag85 that gets only 10.7-10.8V to the lamp. 

So.. of course the light need a regulator.. and the hotdriver does a perfect job of just holding back that extra voltage.. the average efficiency is maybe 95% or so.. but 90% initially when the batteries are fully charged.

The light is a total winner.. It's amazing to see the very best Mag85 performance of ever, and in a 2D host. Sadly it's so blown away by the Mag100 and USL that i'm forever ruined in my ability to judge how bright it is.. mathematically and comparatively (to other Mag85s and lessor lights like the M6 (only in output folks no freakin out on me here).. 

Here are a couple beamshots to showcase the light:





M6 for comparative reference





M66 (1166 lamp at 12.45V.. 900/585L).





M85 (1185 @ 11.1V.. 1360/880L).. just blows the others away.

Notice the amount of light lighting up the area outside the spot.. the M85 is a light monster.. Absolutely stunning... another example of its output:





In this picture, the garage is about 60' away. 

There is a nice difference in that extra 100 Lumen of light i get with the M85 compared to a typical 3D hosted 1185 lamp.. not to mention that the output is non-dimming. Only the last minute or two you can notice it's starting to dim before it shuts off.. i'm thrilled with the overall package solution. 

I have too many things on too many burners to work out a turnkey solution for the M85, but i might pass that off to a buddy that can do it sooner than i can. The 'forumulator' says the selling price would have to be between $210 and $266 to be profitable, but my estimates show that a DIY could probably build this light for closer to $150-160, and i'm all for the DIYer, i will be selling the hotdriver at all levels of complete including at least one nutty guy that wants to put on the SMDs himself (i'll include some spare resistors for the ones that will end up in the carpet!). 

So.. though definitely more evolutionary than revolutionary, the 'M85' is quite a nice improvement from the legendary Mag85.. the "M" nomenclature i made up to represent that like the "M66" which is the smallest yet higher performing 1166 based light than any others.. the M85 is likewise the smallest yet higher performing 1185 based light than any others. (i can dial the output up as high as the lamp can take.. i might do an experiment and see if i can get the lumen output up to an even 1000). 

That re-rates the lamp to a mere 5.7hr lamp life, but that sounds fun for experimentation sake.. that particular regulator takes about 400-500msec to get to full power so it's definitely the softest starter i have. (fun to see ramp up too). It only takes 11.5V to get 1000L out the front with the 1185 lamp.. and these cells would absolutely output that much for maybe 1/3 the runtime. I think i'm quite happy with the 880L on my standard config. though. 

So.. one more killer light from the skunkworks at wynnbright. It's quite a sight to see how cram packed that battery compartment is with the 9x4/5A size batteries in it.. amazing that they fit... the bottom PCB of the battery pack actually comes about 2mm past the first threads!

I think this might be my favorite light to recommend that people would copy or buy (if we can get a turnkey solution going). I love the M66 'cause it' so cute and small.. but I've tried since august to find a better bang-for-buck lamp than the 1185 and just rolling snake eyes.. so i figured.. i have to come up with the very best 1185 solution possible, and homed in on this one.. it's an absolute stunner.. and a lot of people will have the ability to duplicate this solution in the very near future.. I'm using a litho123 commissioned Fivemega 2D-3Bore host, the hotdriver and a battery pack i made myself from 2 circles of PCB i bought at radio shack and a length of 3-48 threaded rod. I made the nuts myself from some 8mm disks of copper and a tap i made myself from a piece of the same threaded rod. (it's very hard to find 3-48 nuts!). 

I'm looking for 2mm threaded rod, or likely i will make my own with some copper wire and a die.. to make the battery holders. The resistance on the pack is extremely low, since the 'traces' are effectively about 1cm wide.. and the batteries are in series without the use of magnet spacers (i had to trim the labels on the cells to get them to contact nicely.. they are really flat-top.. pretty much indented top and bottom). 

So.. comments, anybody? 

-awr


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## cue003 (Feb 7, 2006)

What we talking about for runtime here Andrew on the M85? 

Thanks.

Curtis


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## andrewwynn (Feb 8, 2006)

Oops.. didn't realize i didn't say it specifically (i did mention that 25 minutes was 80%).. but that's a bit obscure.. i edited the first post to include the runtime.. over 30 minutes estimated.. i didn't measure an actual runtime.. i can tell you that it is SUBSTANTIALLY LONGER than the typical 3D Mag85.. but not even CLOSE to the stunning runtime of the 3D host using 9x17500s.. that will run nearly an hour! It also can only hold the stellar output levels that this light can for maybe 10 minutes before it drops out of regulation.. this light puts the 9x17500 to shame in sheer output.. i can dial the output up from 880L all the way to 1000 if i don't care about burning the lamp out.. 950 might give me a decent balance where the lamp will last 10-12 cycles.. in any event.. it's absolutely stronger than any Mag85 before it.. the GP 2000 cells are nutso. 

compare the 1650 cells usually used for a Mag85: here

with the GP2000 cells used in the M85 here

take note of how much higher the voltage is through the entire runtime.. and pay attention to the bottom scale that goes to 2000 mAH not 1700. 

Also.. take note that the graphs only go down as low as 15A.. extrapolate a 10 and a 5A curve above the 20, and 15 to get closer to the actual curve with virtually no load that is presented by an 1185 lamp! 

Since my regulator shuts off based on LAMP voltage not bat. voltage.. it's important to consider where it will shut down and it's supposed to shut off about 10.21V but i measured today it shut off at 10.16.. 1.12V/cell.. looking at the chart, and extrapolating a 5A curve that gets to about 1900-1950 mAH.. and at 3.4A that means 33.5 minutes.. so i don't think it'll have ANY problem getting a solid 30 minutes. 

On the other hand.. 9x1650 cells.. might get you about 1600mAH down to 1V/cell but that's pitifully dim and yellow compared to the 10.8V people talk about them running at in their Mag85s.. 

My estimate is 1200mAH in regulation.. 21 minutes.. after that.. a very gradual (can't see with eyes) dimming to about 700L output at 1800mAH (31 minutes).. where it drops pretty fast 'til shut down. 

In my original Mag85 (typical host.. 3D, 9xCBP 1650).. I was used to a decent 23 minutes of output.. maybe 1200-1300mAH from the cells before they are just junk yellow output... the M85 will hold a solid 880L regulated as long as the original Mag85 would even output useful light.. it's a big step up. 

Now.. if you need longer runtime (other than having a spare battery pack).. the 9x17500 was absolutely stunning.. i'd still have that light operational today if the host wasn't taken over to run the Mag100! 

-awr


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## PGP (Feb 8, 2006)

I guess I will have to order those batteries & hunt down those parts to make the battery pack so I will be ready to go when that hot driver is released. I take it that this is the higher performing hot driver than the one in the litho123 regulated mag GB. Any ball park idea when you will be releasing these hot drivers!

:wow: :goodjob: 
Patrick


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 8, 2006)

Nice !!!


Hey, by the way....how come you have 25 boxes of Zip Lock bags on the shelf, and wrote "Tom" on the ceiling? LOL!




http://homepage.mac.com/rouses/.Pic...-17 04.03.19 -0800/Image-DA8D1CD96EF411DA.jpg


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## CLHC (Feb 8, 2006)

Wow! And yet another "Hotwired" Mag! Way to go!


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## PGP (Feb 8, 2006)

LuxLuthor must be bored tonight!  

 
Patrick


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## andrewwynn (Feb 8, 2006)

the driver is the prototype of the one litho123 is selling, the base driver is plenty good enough for this light.. the 'hot' model of the driver is really only needed for one of two or three possibilities: 

1) light over 50W. 
2) lights over 35W with over 45 min. runtime (i.e. 9x17500 mag85).
3) lights with a significant differential of Vbat and Vlamp (1166 from 14.4V source). 

Should be 3 weeks or less before hotdriver is avail. to everybody.. high-output or normal will be avail at the same time. 

We have an inlaw that gets ziplock (or any johnson wax product) like half price from the company store.. and we bulk-buy stuff and share among the 10 kids in the family.. and funny about the 'tom' on the ceiling.. my second youngest brother must have been working on that ceiling when it was put in.. i only first noticed that just tonight when i posted that picture. 

I'm working on getting the battery pack solution designed, and working out details to get it to fit into a 2D 3-bore w/o a special tailcap. Odds are we'll need a special run of lights incl. a tailcap mod to make this an easy to do mod.. though with a standard tailcap it's probably still doable with just modifying the spring.. it's a super-tight fit otherwise. It'll probably be 3-4 weeks before i can get the PCBs made for the battery packs. 

-awr


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## OddBall (Feb 8, 2006)

"The 'forumulator' says the selling price would have to be between $210 and $266 to be profitable, but my estimates show that a DIY could probably build this light for closer to $150-160, and i'm all for the DIYer, i will be selling the hotdriver at all levels of complete including at least one nutty guy that wants to put on the SMDs himself (i'll include some spare resistors for the ones that will end up in the carpet!)."

hehe what a crazy guy...

I have a bud of mine who is about to start work in a battery store who - amongst other things - has to make up battery packs, do techie work etc. So if there's a need for getting cheap or discounted batteries, at least in Australia, I may be able to help out a bit. I hope to get him to make up a couple of packs for the 100W light, depends if a pack is a wise way to go. What's your take on a pack setup for the regulated 100 Andrew? 

3 weeks... I just loooove the sound of that. (You mean 1 year and 3 weeks eh?) lol Just poking and ribbing ya mate! 

...oh, if we're poking around in your private's property.... what's in the brown paper bags on the shelf? LOL!!


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## andrewwynn (Feb 8, 2006)

Brown bags i think was potatoes. My dad bought 100# to split up with the fam.. kinda our mini co-op. 

The pack i'm using in my 100W light is based on modamag's 12AA, with the top removed, the springs removed and threading the rods to put 4-40 nuts tapped out to 6-32 on in place of soldering to make a very solid pack, probably not much higher resistance than welded packs but with the ease of swapping a bum cell (which i already had to do once). 

In a 3D host that is either 4-bore or 3-bore you can fit this 12xCBP1650 solution. It's a good match with the hotdriver because the voltage on the cells being a little lower than the GP2000s, there is not too much power dissipation on the FET. I still have to do testing with the GP2000s and the 100W light.. the initial calculations show numbers like 30W power on the FET with fresh batteries, and i don't know if the light will overheat or not, but we will find out soon. 

3 *actual* weeks.. fortunately most of the work somebody else will be doing, so i can keep making nanos. My nano helper is getting more proficient and doing more of the stuff that only i was able to do as well which i expect to keep things on-track to get them all done. 

I will be talking with my hotwire buds about working on a turnkey verson of the M85, which i think is the pinnacle of 1185.. it's nice how it worked out with less exotic batteries (NiMH vs LiON).. 2D size is very nice.. more runtime and quite obviously brighter... (though even a standard Mag85 will output more than 11.1V for a number of seconds with a fresh pack, that's why they can blow the bulb). 

Funny that you caught the 'crazy guy' reference. It actually won't be a difficult job to solder, especially with the guide of the 3D model i made to show how it gets put together. It will be a 'paint by numbers' situation though, i'm not going to be explaining a couple of the reasons why things are where they are.. i accidentally discovered how to make the soft-start work on this regulator that does not have the function designed in... somebody can copy the exact plan i've shown in the hotdriver thread to make the same regulator but w/o the soft-start, that's my 'gem' to the design. 

-awr


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## PGP (Feb 8, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> the driver is the prototype of the one litho123 is selling, the base driver is plenty good enough for this light.
> 
> Should be 3 weeks or less before hotdriver is avail. to everybody.. high-output or normal will be avail at the same time.
> 
> ...



Great! Maybe you or Litho123 could sell the stuff to make the M85 & M100 just like in his Regulated Mag Group Buy. Pick & choose the items you dont already have to make either light, mainly the 3 or 4 bore body, hot driver & battery packs.

Which body do you think is the most versatile, 3 or 4 bore.

Patrick


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## andrewwynn (Feb 8, 2006)

That's the general idea i'm talking about.. that i will design the light (which i did already), build the battery holders and arrange for other people to assemble them to get sales thread going. 

The 3-bore light is far more versatile... you can fit either 3 or 4 wide battery packs in it.. for example, my Mag100 is a 2.5D 3-bore light with a 4-wide modamag 12AA pack.. but i've used that same host to run my previous M85 solution.. 9x17500s in a 2.5D 3 bore. It used to 'rub me the wrong way' putting a square peg into a triangular hole.. i laughed when Tom and Greg even suggested doing it, i thought they were nuts, but i tried it and now that i have My Mag100 with 3bore to compare to tom's with 4-bore... my battery pack goes in effortlessly and tom' is a tight fit.. mine is a little bit off-center but obviously within tolerance to do the job. 

In this light, i use 3-bore because 4-bore wouldn't be an option, and because using 3x3 cell configuration everything lines up really nicely. Though since i'm using the older model of 3-bore, the cells are extremely tight! (i can only use cellophane tape to hold them together.. electrical tape or shrink wrap is waaaay to thick! Imagine that. 

-awr


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## jayhackett03 (Jan 14, 2007)

is this light bored out?


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## 65535 (Jan 14, 2007)

Tribored.


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## jayhackett03 (Jan 14, 2007)

yup, thats out of my league then.


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## Rommul (Jan 14, 2007)

jayhackett03 said:


> yup, thats out of my league then.



As soon as the C sized Li Ions hit the streets it will be 2D mag 85's for all


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## roadie (Jan 31, 2007)

how to actually tri bore ?? 

methods? device? 

educate me .....


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## JimmyM (Jan 31, 2007)

I think you mean 3C Mag85s for all. Or 3D Mag85s.


Rommul said:


> As soon as the C sized Li Ions hit the streets it will be 2D mag 85's for all


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## Rommul (Feb 1, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> I think you mean 3C Mag85s for all. Or 3D Mag85s.



Nah. I would much rather lug around 3C's in a 2D (PVC sleeve) that to carry something as long as a 3C of 3D.


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## Action (Feb 7, 2007)

Can you post any pictures of your battery pack?


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## Action (Feb 9, 2007)

Would you be willing to produce a custom pack based on these batteries? I would love to get a 6X3 pack for a 4D. Or if your packs can be run in series, (2) 3X3 packs if they would fit into a stock 4D setup would fit the bill even better!


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## andrewwynn (Feb 10, 2007)

I will be making killer battery packs.. not for about a month yet... http://smartpak.rouse.com I have to get my active projects caught up first.. you can look at http://rouse.com/hotdriver and check out the battery packs made for the prototypes to copy me 'til mine are available. 

-awr


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## Action (Feb 10, 2007)

Wow! Just what I need! Is there some announcement or a list to get on to get one of these packs?



andrewwynn said:


> I will be making killer battery packs.. not for about a month yet... -awr


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## bwaites (Feb 11, 2007)

Rommul, ummmm, since the 3C light is exactly long enough for 3 C cells and the 2D is also long enough for 3 C cells, wouldn't that make them essentially the same length?

Oh, I understand that you can do the tailcap trick, and it might mean the 2D is a little shorter, but an inch or so isn't that much in length.

Bill


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## Rommul (Feb 11, 2007)

bwaites said:


> Rommul, ummmm, since the 3C light is exactly long enough for 3 C cells and the 2D is also long enough for 3 C cells, wouldn't that make them essentially the same length?
> 
> Oh, I understand that you can do the tailcap trick, and it might mean the 2D is a little shorter, but an inch or so isn't that much in length.
> 
> Bill



Yep but the carriability (is that a word) is based on the depth of my back pockets. The 3c is just too long.


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## 02Scuba (Mar 15, 2007)

All right Andrew !

You know I have been trying to build a similar light with your HID/KIU now for a while and all along you had this ? I just fried my driver the other night because I used 12 cells instead of 11 and a dummy (me). If you sell this baby I think I deserve first shot. Thanks for all your help and input on the various projects I'm working on. You have always delivered and your advice has been invaluable.


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## andrewwynn (Mar 16, 2007)

did you send the driver back for repair? it's warranted even against 'dummy' :-D I will get around to making a similar light in a 'run' at some point. The sales will be handled off-site. I am aiming toward the 1164 due to a better match with several battery configurations and more consistent light output.


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## gammaray1965 (Mar 16, 2007)

Hi Andrewwynn, Great sig! I was just wondering about driving one of your regulators with Li-ion batteries; From my understanding, Li-ion batteries used with your regulators in series to the lamp do not require a PCB. Wouldn't it be better for protection to the Li-ion cell/s?

Thanks, Gammaray


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## Rommul (Mar 17, 2007)

gammaray1965 said:


> Hi Andrewwynn, Great sig! I was just wondering about driving one of your regulators with Li-ion batteries; From my understanding, Li-ion batteries used with your regulators in series to the lamp do not require a PCB. Wouldn't it be better for protection to the Li-ion cell/s?
> 
> Thanks, Gammaray



That is not exactly accurate Andrew drivers can be set to limit the current draw on most lamps but there are dangers associated with Li-Ion cells that do not have a protection PCB. Namely overdischarge as well as overcharginging of the cells.

I highly recommend the use of protected cells. Read the Flashlight Electronics section to get some info on Li-Ions before venturing further with this type of chemistry.


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## cnjl3 (Mar 17, 2007)

Both AWR's HD or Winnys PIR have low voltage shut down which allow you to use unprotected li-ions but the option of using protected cells should be a no brainer.

I have two HDs and one working PIR and each does the low voltage differently but both protect against sucking a cell down too low.


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## andrewwynn (Mar 18, 2007)

there is SOME improvement in saftey when using individual cells.. about as much odds in helping as there are in being a liability (there is a very interesting thread about a 'protected lion' that shorted out internally from pressure in a battery pack... 

overcharging has to do with your charger.. properly run and especially if charged singly not in series no decent LION charger is going to over charge a LION cell.. it's a combination of the likes of 'dumb' cell and 'dumb' charger that cause a big problem.. i.e. do not charge a 'raw' (dumb) cell on a 'dumb' charger (like the older PILA/wolfeyes) that rely on the 'smart' cell to shut off the charge and just keep pumping in current up to a destructive voltage. 

Few combinations actually even allow the use of LION and hotwire lights.. by the time somebody figures out how to mate them they almost always know what they are doing in regard to LION cells.. (not always, but usually). 

-awr


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## gammaray1965 (Mar 18, 2007)

cnjl3 said:


> Both AWR's HD or Winnys PIR have low voltage shut down which allow you to use unprotected li-ions but the option of using protected cells should be a no brainer.
> 
> I have two HDs and one working PIR and each does the low voltage differently but both protect against sucking a cell down too low.


So, if using protected cell is a no brainer, then why not use them?

Would it not be safer to have double protection?


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## cnjl3 (Mar 18, 2007)

It all comes down to money I guess. 
Unprotected cells are cheaper and if you have a safety net (HD or PIR) that will shut down the Hotwire at the proper time then that is definitely better than using no protection. 
Protected cells with either regulator would be even safer!
So Yes, I agree double protection is safer. 









gammaray1965 said:


> So, if using protected cell is a no brainer, then why not use them?
> 
> Would it not be safer to have double protection?


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## Icebreak (Mar 20, 2007)

gammaray1965 said:


> Hi Andrewwynn, Great sig! I was just wondering about driving one of your regulators with Li-ion batteries; From my understanding, Li-ion batteries used with your regulators in series to the lamp do not require a PCB. Wouldn't it be better for protection to the Li-ion cell/s?
> 
> Thanks, Gammaray



My tolerance for risk is low when it comes to unprotected Li-Ions. I would not run unprotected Li-Ions in series against a WA01185 even if a regulated driver were introduced into the circuit. Risking one’s own property and one’s own family by relying on a home designed driver installed in a high current HotWire as the only protection against fiery outgassing and possible explosion is not prudent. There are reports of the hotdriver frying in high current applications.

LuxLuthor’s torch using a hotdriver would not work with protected Li-Ions. He has recently de-commissioned it. Post 11 in this thread.


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