# The Surefire of Headlamps



## Numbers (Dec 27, 2007)

I like SureFire for my handheld lights, and dont want to get into any SF vs. name the company, type of discussion. So, to those of you who like/appreciate what SF markets in handheld's- Please advise what the equivalent headlamp company is. I am not looking for "best for the price". If I like SF for handhelds who will I like for a headlamp? I dont want to study the catalogs of a lot of companies, just the top one or two. The headlamp will be used for general purposes.


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## KeyGrip (Dec 27, 2007)

Stenlight S7. One of the most rugged headlamps in production. http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/stenlight_s7.htm


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## TMorita (Dec 27, 2007)

KeyGrip said:


> Stenlight S7. One of the most rugged headlamps in production. http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/stenlight_s7.htm


 
I think the other choice would be the Scurion:

http://www.scurion.ch

I can't think of anything else besides the Stenlight or Scurion that would qualify.

Toshi


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## FrogmanM (Dec 28, 2007)

Thx for the links! Caving looks very straining on the body and equipment, so I"m guessing these lights are insane!

Good stuff


Mayo


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## ltiu (Dec 28, 2007)

FrogmanM said:


> Thx for the links! Caving looks very straining on the body and equipment, so I"m guessing these lights are insane!
> 
> Good stuff
> 
> ...



Insane caving?

Depends how hard core you are. I can't say I am hard core and regular headlights from REI, Target and Walmart works just fine for me. Since those lights are cheap, when I lose or break them, I won't feel any pain.


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## mountainpenguin (Dec 28, 2007)

TMorita said:


> I think the other choice would be the Scurion:
> 
> http://www.scurion.ch
> 
> ...



there are some probs with version 1 Scurion battery pack.
there is also the new oldham dl-16


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## BlackDecker (Dec 28, 2007)

ltiu said:


> Insane caving?
> 
> Depends how hard core you are. I can't say I am hard core and regular headlights from REI, Target and Walmart works just fine for me. Since those lights are cheap, when I lose or break them, I won't feel any pain.



And for what a Stenlight costs, you can buy a bag full of headlamps from the retailers above.


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## cave dave (Dec 28, 2007)

Many bicycle lights can be used as headlamps, although you might have to get creative and do some sewing.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/176131

PS Scurion and Stenlight are both helmet lights. They don't come with headbands.


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## cave dave (Dec 28, 2007)

BlackDecker said:


> And for what a Stenlight costs, you can buy a bag full of headlamps from the retailers above.



And for the price of a Surefire you can buy a bag of DX lights but thats not what this thread is about is it? :nana:


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## TMorita (Dec 28, 2007)

ltiu said:


> ...
> Since those lights are cheap, when I lose or break them, I won't feel any pain.


 
If they break while you're in the cave, you may feel some pain.

Especially if you're walking in a lava tube.

Toshi


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## ltiu (Dec 28, 2007)

TMorita said:


> If they break while you're in the cave, you may feel some pain.
> 
> Especially if you're walking in a lava tube.
> 
> Toshi



I always bring multiple flashlights with me while in a cave  

Backups and backups to backups and backups to backups to backups. 

All of it must be ready to go, not stuck in the bottom of your pack somewhere where you can't find it in the dark. These are either ready to go already mounted on the helmet or off my waist.

Bring lot's of spare batteries too.

Never bring just one when you are caving!!!

So far, none of my lights have failed while actually being used in a cave. The only one that failed was a Garrity 8 LED headlight which was one of my un-used backups and which was not water proof and failed "after" I left the cave when I was testing all my gear before going into another cave.


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## ltiu (Dec 28, 2007)

You can get 2 SureFires plus some tie straps and tie to the side of your helmet just like SureFire catalogs show.


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## Numbers (Dec 28, 2007)

Thank you, 
I now know what the best headlamps are but I am not a caver and do not need a helmet light - a headband is in order. Additionally I would like to run cr123's to keep all my batts the same. For me this light would not see enough use to require rechargeable batteries. I failed to mention this in my first post, sorry. 
If you have any other input I would appreciate it, meanwhile I will keep my eye on this forum to continue to learn anout headlamps. I do know that I would like an updated led before I buy.
(If I were a caver or if the stenlight s7 came with headband and 123 power I think that would be the one, after an updated led).


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## ltiu (Dec 28, 2007)

Numbers said:


> Thank you,
> I now know what the best headlamps are but I am not a caver and do not need a helmet light - a headband is in order. Additionally I would like to run cr123's to keep all my batts the same. For me this light would not see enough use to require rechargeable batteries. I failed to mention this in my first post, sorry.
> If you have any other input I would appreciate it, meanwhile I will keep my eye on this forum to continue to learn anout headlamps. I do know that I would like an updated led before I buy.
> (If I were a caver or if the stenlight s7 came with headband and 123 power I think that would be the one, after an updated led).




Princeton Tec APEX with the CR123A battery pack version:

http://www.rei.com/product/748982


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## TMorita (Jan 1, 2008)

ltiu said:


> Princeton Tec APEX with the CR123A battery pack version:
> 
> http://www.rei.com/product/748982


 
The PT Apex Pro is probably the highest-end CR123 headlamp, I agree.

But it wouldn't survive being run over by a car and other things a Surefire can survive. The "runs on CR123" and "Surefire quality" are probably mutually exclusive requirements.

Toshi


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## xcandrew (Jan 1, 2008)

TMorita said:


> But it wouldn't survive being run over by a car and other things a Surefire can survive. The "runs on CR123" and "Surefire quality" are probably mutually exclusive requirements.
> 
> Toshi



How are people using their headlamps so that they would need the ability to be run over by a car? I'm having a hard time imagining people putting their headlamps through such abuse, especially while they are attached to someone's head! Otherwise, they need to survive storage in pockets, bags, tight pockets of backpacks, maybe poor baggage handling if you put no care at all into packing, cold and heat, water, etc. I think the more likely failures are electrical - switches and stuff like that - and from what I've read in these forums, Surefires are not immune to those kinds of failures.


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## SaVaGe (Jan 1, 2008)

Look no further........

http://www.foxfury.com/products/pro_series/tactical/tactical_3.html

Light Emissions

Candle Power = 6,270
Lumens = 500
Field of Vision = 30°
Photopic Lighting = Near
Distance Vision = up to 500 ft (152 m)
Peripheral Vision = 60 ft (18 m)
Features

Tilt = Yes (90°)
Intrinsically Safe = No
Handheld = Optional
Number of LEDs = Four 3 Watt CREE XR-E
LED Colors = White
Tap Switch = Yes
Battery Power Pack Belt = Yes
Durability

Waterproof = Yes (20 ft / 6m)
Fire Resistant = *Yes *
Impact Resistant = Yes
they also have different models.


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## mountainpenguin (Jan 1, 2008)

the sten has a head band attachment and i am sure you could get a cr123 battery pack after all it has a huge input voltage range.


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## TMorita (Jan 1, 2008)

xcandrew said:


> How are people using their headlamps so that they would need the ability to be run over by a car? I'm having a hard time imagining people putting their headlamps through such abuse, especially while they are attached to someone's head! Otherwise, they need to survive storage in pockets, bags, tight pockets of backpacks, maybe poor baggage handling if you put no care at all into packing, cold and heat, water, etc. I think the more likely failures are electrical - switches and stuff like that - and from what I've read in these forums, Surefires are not immune to those kinds of failures.


 
"Run over by a car" is probably a bad example.

I can think of a few personal examples why I'd want a near-indestructible headlamp:

1. Paragliding

Paragliding packs weigh about 50 lbs, and when we caravan to the top of a mountain, we pack a lot of people and equipment in one car or SUV (put 12 people and their 50 lb packs in one suburban once!). I like to keep a headlamp in my paragliding pack because sometimes I've landed out in a big field in the dark a few times, and it's good to have a headlamp to pack your paragliding wing and hike out.

Anyway when you pack a bunch of people in a vehicle and stack their paragliding packs, the ones on the bottom tend to get crushed. Right now I keep my headlamp in a crushproof Otterbox to ensure it won't be smashed, but the Otterbox is extra weight to fly with and lug around.

2. Rock climbing

It's good to have a headlamp around when rock climbing in case something happens and you need to hike out in the dark. Sometimes rock climbing packs get smashed because they're stacked, or if you throw them down into a gully before clambering down

3. Caving

I've caved a few times and liked it, and I'd like to go a few more times. Caving tends to be pretty rough on headlamps, because they get mounted on helmets, and depending on the cave you can be crawling on your hands and knees a lot (did one three hour cave trip where I was on hands and knees almost continuously). If the cave is that tight, you tend to bang your helmet/headlamp on the walls/ceiling a lot. For example, some cavers on the caving forums complain about the PT Apex because the hinge tends to break after being banged around in caves. 

So personally, for me, a durable headlamp is very important.

Toshi


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## ltiu (Jan 1, 2008)

TMorita said:


> If the cave is that tight, you tend to bang your helmet/headlamp on the walls/ceiling a lot. For example, some cavers on the caving forums complain about the PT Apex because the hinge tends to break after being banged around in caves.



Thanks for sharing your experience and insights.

I find that every caver (every person) is different, almost reflects the personality. I see some people are very reckless or just plain clumsy and tend to bang against things while in the cave. I also notice some people are pretty elegant and careful when inside a cave and come out with very few hits and scratches.


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## ltiu (Jan 1, 2008)

SaVaGe said:


> Look no further........
> 
> http://www.foxfury.com/products/pro_series/tactical/tactical_3.html



This one looks big and heavy.


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## :)> (Jan 1, 2008)

I wish that Surefire was the "Surefire of headlamps"


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## xcandrew (Jan 2, 2008)

TMorita said:


> ...So personally, for me, a durable headlamp is very important.
> 
> Toshi



No arguing about personal preferences. I'm generally more along the lines of Itiu's careful-with-equipment kind of person when I am climbing or otherwise using my headlamps. For instance, I've never had to throw my pack down a gully... I would rather wear it, lower it, or otherwise deal with it. There's usually stuff in a pack that needs more care than any of my headlamps, like glasses or sunglasses (definitely learned to be more careful after crushing the frame of a $100 pair in a pack pocket once), plastic compass (can confirm that a Moscow orienteering thumb compass will not survive being run over by a vehicle in a parking lot), or even a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that I'd prefer not to be smushed.

I can see the PT Apex cracking with some abuse, because of reports of it cracking during mods. I'm pretty sure the (modded) PT Eos that is my primary headlamp is more resistant to such damage... never heard of anyone crushing the case of that, though it would be a good idea to keep the blade part side of the pivot folded against the headlamp body when storing it in a pack. How well protected is the lens of the Stenlight? It looks somewhat vunerable to damage if you are throwing it down gullys with 50 lbs of climbing gear...


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## PhantomPhoton (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd tend to agree that headlamps are generally very prone to abuse. I have hit my headlamp on a low ceiling a few times when crawling around in lava tubes. Sometimes no matter how careful you are it just happens. Especially because while most of us have a very decent kinesthetic awareness (where our body is)... add on an inch or two protruding out from a helmet and headlamp and you alway seem to mis-judge yourself.
For me headlamps are needed for all sorts of outdoor activities. Backpacking,as previously stated, requires the headlamp survive the backpack. It also requires that it survives me sitting/rolling on it in the tent and a rowdy night around the campfire with a few buddies (with way too much alcohol in them).
And then there is another dimension to add to my headlamp needs. Night Skiing. I've been a recreational skier for ~20 years. I still take a tumble now and then; put a gymnast on snowblades and turn him loose... all sorts of stuff is going to happen. :naughty: The headlamp has got to be able survive when attached to my helmet.

So far I've been underwhelmed by the build quality of most headlamps. I guess the plastic construction just hasn't done it for me. Battery compartment integrity has been my biggest issue so far. It seems most headlamps just have a hard time keeping batteries in proper contact and plastic isn't too great at holding screw threads.


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## ltiu (Jan 2, 2008)

My River Rock K2 headlight is pretty sturdy I would say. Caving with it for a while now and it's been pretty reliable. I am sure I hit and scratched it a few times by now and it is still going.


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## FoxFury (Jan 3, 2008)

ltiu

The (FoxFury) PRO is our biggest headlamp and is overkill in terms of size and light output for most. 

We have three other headlamps (Signature, Command and Performance) that are extremely durable and are lighter and more compact.


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## colterbay2005 (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't believe that a surefire quality headlamp exists. I have gone through dozens of headlamps. I have owned every princeton tec headlamp ever made (including the PT Apex Pro - which is quite flimsy) and several others including the Lupine Wilma Pro. I'm waiting to hear back from scurion - they look promising.

I tend to compare every flashlight/headlamp to the quality, reliability and simplicity of my McGizmo PDs. I have not found similar attributes in any of the headlamps currently offered. 

My headlamp use is primarily for expedition/trekking and mountaineering and therefore I prefer non-rechargeable headlamps. 

The rechargeable headlamps such as the Lupine Wilma Pro and Stenlight are great for evening adventures - maybe even overnighters but I can't bring myself to trust them on a 12-15 day trek.

I often think that I will need to design my own headlamp because no headlamp currently meets my needs or expectations.

So in conclusion - There is unfortunately NO Surefire of Headlamps - and if there was I would have already bought it.


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## ltiu (Jan 3, 2008)

FoxFury said:


> ltiu
> 
> The (FoxFury) PRO is our biggest headlamp and is overkill in terms of size and light output for most.
> 
> We have three other headlamps (Signature, Command and Performance) that are extremely durable and are lighter and more compact.


 
Thanks.

I assume by looking at the product photos that you use Nichia LEDs?

The biggest issue I have with Nichia LEDs is the blueish hue of its light. I prefer yelowish light which Luxeon Rebels and even Luxeon 1 and Crees have. Do your LED headlights have this same issue?

Also, with regards to your headlights that are labelled for water use. What makes that headlight appropriate for water use? is it the light color/hue?


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## jhscaver (Jan 3, 2008)

Back when Jon Burlison was passing around a demo of a modded sten last year, one of testers must have run over it with a car. The switch arm was bent badly, and that is 1/16" stainless steel! The aluminum housing had grind and dimple marks in it suggesting it was mashed into a gravel surface, yet it still performed well in multiple cave trips after that. 
I have not seen a Scurion so I can't speak for those, however you cannot put an Apex or a Foxfury in the same boat as a stenlight.
Every caver I know that uses the stenlight think it is the best commercially available cavelight, and well, it is. Although you'll have to upgrade the emmitters now for it to be the brightest too.

Although this is off topic, I have been impressed with how durable my Fenix is. I've had it strapped to my Petzl Ecrin Roc helmet for a year now, and the aluminum is abraided away on both ends yet it still shines. I've had 3 back up, helmet mounted Inova's that failed long before that.


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## FoxFury (Jan 3, 2008)

ltiu

We work directly with the development teams of the top 6 LED manufacturers and are always installing the latest and brightest LEDs available.

Nichia normally has light temperatures in the 9,000 to 11,000 K range. We typically build products with a maximum light temperature of 6,000K.

As far as the Water lights, it is the LED colors used. The combination of White, Blue and Green light is best for surface water vision.


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## JohnB (Jan 3, 2008)

FoxFury said:


> ltiu
> 
> We work directly with the development teams of the top 6 LED manufacturers and are always installing the latest and brightest LEDs available.
> 
> ...




I posted a beamshot of the PRO 3-Watt Bike Headlamp here
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/184373


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## Billman730 (Jan 4, 2008)

I have bought and worn most commercial headlamps. After getting into E1 Surefire lights and being able to clip them on the brim of my soft ball cap type hat I have all but given up and just use the E1's. But I am just walking in tough locations where the hat falls off I bend over and pick it back up. This week I bought two E type lights with the lanyard and clip them on my hat but choke up the lanyard ball so they stay on in the wind. Lastnight was 8 below and windy in Chester mass and the lights got me thru a tough switch problem. I put my safety glasses on with two AAA mini mags held on the glasses with heat shrink tubbing and had to laff at the sad amount of light they gave compared to the SF lights. But 4 lights going on my head was a sight for trainmens eyes as they passed by me they had differing comments of amazement... LOL..


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## karlthev (Aug 15, 2008)

Any news on USA shipping of the Scurion? The last I heard there was some liability issues (not problems) to work out.


Karl


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## Gary123 (Aug 16, 2008)

But can these headlamps be worn off helmet? And do the lighter ones give much throw, or are they basically flood?



FoxFury said:


> ltiu
> 
> The (FoxFury) PRO is our biggest headlamp and is overkill in terms of size and light output for most.
> 
> We have three other headlamps (Signature, Command and Performance) that are extremely durable and are lighter and more compact.


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## bezel (Aug 16, 2008)

Numbers said:


> I like SureFire for my handheld lights, and dont want to get into any SF vs. name the company, type of discussion. So, to those of you who like/appreciate what SF markets in handheld's- Please advise what the equivalent headlamp company is. I am not looking for "best for the price". If I like SF for handhelds who will I like for a headlamp? I dont want to study the catalogs of a lot of companies, just the top one or two. The headlamp will be used for general purposes.


 
http://www.batteryjunction.com/surefire-saint.html

Perhaps SureFire is the Surefire of headlamps 

But you will have to wait until around the end of the year:mecry:

Supposedly there will be more models for which you will have to wait even longer 

And their first model, the Saint will take 123s like you wanted (1, 2, or 3 at a time) with a six hour runtime on high (100 lumens). It will also run AAs the other direction in the battery box 

It is also variable output like the Titan with a detent @ 10 lumens 

The UI sounds simple as is status quoe for SF, not overly complex like a lot of their recent competitors


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## MajorJim (Aug 22, 2008)

karlthev said:


> Any news on USA shipping of the Scurion? The last I heard there was some liability issues (not problems) to work out.
> 
> 
> Karl


 

They still have a note up on their site that they will not be dealing with US customers until they can work out "liability issues". Makes you wonder of they have had some battery pops. Sending one's head up in flames would certainly be a problem in terms of liability.


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