# Wabeco lathe and alternatives...



## tino_ale (Nov 16, 2007)

Hi all,

The more time passes, the more I just can't get used to the idea of not having a lathe. Having ideas but no mean to accomplish them is just plain frustrating  Not only about flashlights, but many other little parts that I would like to make.

Anyway, here is the website for these Wabeco machines : http://www.wabeco-remscheid.de/

They are distributed in the US by MDA precision , haven't found them in France yet, but they are made in Germany so I guess it should be doable...

These machines are expensive. Too expensive some may say in regards to their size... but they seem to offer precision and quality works from a very small (bench top) form factor. This has a price apparently!

I personnally can't keep a big machine. I may very well end up using my lathe in a reserved room of an appartment. :huh: I don't need it to be small to the point where I would move it alone, or put it back in a shelf when not in use... (I'm not looking for a micro lathe) But I needs to be no more than 250 lbs or so... movable by 3 people.

Of course I'm considering cheaper lathe too, like the LM 8x14 which sounds like the best cheap chinese out there.

My problem is that to my little knowledge, there is nothing between a chinese 8x14 and these german refined machines. Keep in mind the form factor. There is a huge gap in both price and built quality.

I got a couple of question, if someone can help :

- Do you think the D2000/D4000 are large enough to comfortably work on up to 2D mag (exterior work only) and D mag heads. They have about 13" between centers.
- How do you think the D2000 compare to the D4000? The D2000 have tubes instead of prismatic bed, I don't how good this system is? and how well it will remain precise over time? Besides, the price difference is not that huge... Would it be wise to choose the D4000 instead?

the important question :
- Do you know any other brand/model of reasonable sized lathe which offer better overall quality than the chinese, but cheaper than the german? Talking new machine here...

The LM 8x14 and the Wabeco machines sound like completely different offer, yet I have the dilema of which one to get. I've seen the cheap one can do amazing things, but I really need a hassle-free machine, more or less ready out of the box, and RELIABLE. Also I would like to machine parts that are not easy on the lathe : Titanium and stainless steel.

Cheap chinese or nice german... the german is tempting but I need to keep some funds for the tooling :duh2::ironic: .

Any help is appreciated 
Thanks for reading!


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## tino_ale (Nov 16, 2007)

Forgot to add : I'd be very happy if the machine was rigid/powerfull enough to remove reasonnable layer of metal during the rough passes... 0,040 sounds good but can they do that much on hard metals?


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## PhotonFanatic (Nov 16, 2007)

tino_ale said:


> Forgot to add : I'd be very happy if the machine was rigid/powerfull enough to remove reasonnable layer of metal during the rough passes... 0,040 sounds good but can they do that much on hard metals?



I would suggest buying a good used Wabeco, if you can find one, or a Schaublin, or other precision lathe. Buy the biggest one that you can.

As for cutting Titanium and stainless steel, I have a fairly small lathe made by Wahli, a Swiss manufacturer, but it is much larger than an 8X14 and weighs 800 pounds, and when I am turning Ti or SS, I usually only remove a maximum of .15mm per pass, or .006", so I really think you would be pushing an 8x14 to remove .04" per pass.

But maybe I'm a wuss and don't want to break my tooling or lathe.


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## tino_ale (Nov 17, 2007)

I doubt a Schaublin would be cheaper even compared to a brand new Wabeco, unless it is seriously worn out! I don't have the mean to make a chinese much better than stock (I read here and there it's doable with some little work), I don't have the mean either (not mentionning the "how to") to refusbish an old lathe :sick2:

May I ask how deep to you cut into aluminium (rough cuts) with your lathe ?

For Titanium, unless using lot's of coolant you don't want to cut too hard -> risk of ignition


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## Anglepoise (Nov 17, 2007)

It might be a good idea to think long and hard as to just what you want to do with your lathe. 

In my experience, sometimes features can be more important than 'brand'.

For example. Spindle bore through hole diameter. This dimension, along with the chuck, will decide the thickness that can be gripped. Yes a 3" chuck can grip a 3" piece of metal. But if you want to bore a through hole in your 3" x 12" piece of metal, then it has to slide through the chuck and up the spindle bore. In this exaggerated example, the spindle bore would have to be over 3" in diameter. Yes there are ways to do it on a small lathe, but if you are going to be moding and making 1" Flashlights, then you will want to be able to slide a 12" length of stock up the spindle with an inch protruding to work on.

Also between center dimensions don't take into consideration the tooling that will fit in the tail stock, ( example ball bearing center or drill chuck ) and the distance taken up by the chuck. This can drastically reduce the 'actual working range' over the dimensions advertised by the manufacturer.

These small 'bench top' lathes and their owners put out some marvelous work and I in no way want to cast dispersions on them . The research and questions you are asking now will help you make the right decision so you don't get too many 'surprises' down the road. Good luck....


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## tino_ale (Nov 17, 2007)

Thanks for the heads up about the spindle bore. I have paid attention to that, and on the Wabeco it seems that you have 20mm "only" but optionnaly get 30mm which is good for 1" stock. On the LatheMaster you have less than 1". Is this bore a feature of the lathe itself, or a feature of the chuck? In which case changing the chuck can do the trick.

As to what I want to be able to do :
- built a 18650 1"OD flashlight from scratch Al, up to Ti or SS
- make C/D mags heatsink
- work on D mags bodies and tubes for exterior work



> Also between center dimensions don't take into consideration the tooling that will fit in the tail stock, ( example ball bearing center or drill chuck ) and the distance taken up by the chuck.


WOW THAT'S something I needed to know! Do you know the approx lenght I should remove from maker's numbers to get the real usable lenght for exterior work? (guess I need to remove the lenght of the chuck+live center?)

In the Wabeco line of product, there is an important difference it seems : the tube slides machines have independant electronic drive for chuck and feed, whereas the V-bed machines have a more conventionnal mechanical engine.

Keep writing your thoughts I still have a lot to learn 
cheers!


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## TranquillityBase (Nov 17, 2007)

Maybe a really small, inexpensive machine is a good starting point....FWIW, my lathe was mostly idle for the first few years of ownership. I really wanted one, but I didn't know how to run a lathe, other than the basics, and the tooling is a $$$ *'black hole'* The cost of the machine is insignificant compared to the tooling. 

At the very least, with a small machine, you can determine if you really like making parts on a lathe, and resale should be quite easy, due to the low overall weight of a small lathe. 

Spindle bore, and overall weight were my two main considerations...If I buy another lathe, it will be bigger.


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## fa__ (Nov 17, 2007)

Hello
About chinese machine tuning, you can read this
http://www.cambouis.com/bidouille/bidouille.htm
(french should'nt be a problem )


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## PhotonFanatic (Nov 17, 2007)

tino_ale said:


> . . . May I ask how deep to you cut into aluminium (rough cuts) with your lathe ?
> 
> For Titanium, unless using lot's of coolant you don't want to cut too hard -> risk of ignition



On AL, the deepest that I go when turning is .5mm, probably could crank up the speed and do at least 1mm, but why bother? I'm not in that much of a rush. 

I've only had Ti catch fire once, a small piece, nothing serious. You can back off when you start to see sparks. Honestly, I've learned to just take my time with Ti and slow down the RPMs. 

As for lathe recommendations, without naming more names, I would suggest that for what you want to do, i.e., work on Mag bodies, that a bed at least 18-20" long might be needed. I second TB and anglepoise in that bigger is better, within one's budget of course. There is a steep learning curve with the lathe, so getting a cheap, small lathe and beating up on that makes more sense than doing it on a precision lathe. :devil: 

Not rubbing it in, or bragging in any manner, but I've spent as much on one carbide bar, toolholder, as some might spend on a 7X12 lathe, so ultimately the tooling cost for top quality tools is going to make a serious dent in your wallet.


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## TranquillityBase (Nov 17, 2007)

> I personnally can't keep a big machine. I may very well end up using my lathe in a reserved room of an appartment. :huh: I don't need it to be small to the point where I would move it alone, or put it back in a shelf when not in use... (I'm not looking for a micro lathe) But I needs to be no more than 250 lbs or so... movable by 3 people.


 
*This is key tino*...If the machine is going to be used in 'living space', forget lubes, and coolant...Oils and water based coolants will present an undesirable odor, everything will stink, including *all* your clothing, bedding etc.

I use no flowing coolant, and very little oil (mostly for threading only) Ti will dry cut fine, I rough .200" per pass, without oil or coolant.....Drilling Ti solid stock is a different story...I use air pressure to cool the part, and my drill sharpener is in constant use. Drilling generates the most heat, and will really cause a stink, with any oil, or coolant.

Aluminum doesn't dry cut well, unless you're taking very light cuts, and even then it will eat tooling...WD40 is your friend for aluminum.


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## will (Nov 17, 2007)

tooling - I have not spent a lot, I grind my 5/16 tool steel bits. I made a boring bar from a 5/16 hex wrench. I did buy parting tools and a carbide threading tool for inside threading. I use kerosene for cutting aluminum. Any cutting oil is going to smoke a bit from the hot chips that can come off. Also - you have to be concerned about drops of oil flying off into walls and on the floor. I only work with aluminum and wood on my mini lathe. To be honest - you can spend a lot on tools, but, you really don't have to. IF you are going to work with steel or Ti - then you need to get carbide tool bits.


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## tino_ale (Nov 17, 2007)

As for tools, since I don't have a grinder (and would like to keep it that way if viable) I have been first thinking of using carbide tools with these holders and disposable inserts. I need to check the price of those hope they are not 



> At the very least, with a small machine, you can determine if you really like making parts on a lathe, and resale should be quite easy, due to the low overall weight of a small lathe.


Very true and that's part of my dilema. The point is : even a "cheap" machine with tooling (not cheap) is already too expensive for me to just "give it a try". I intend to keep that machine, whatever it is, for a long long time and learn seriously enough to operate it to fullfill my creative needs  . Now is there a possibilité for me to hate turning? I guess it's a possibility. To the point a can't even make the small parts I want here and there? Maybe possible but I doubt it. At most, I may end up using it less than I thought but it should not be worthless either.



> There is a steep learning curve with the lathe, so getting a cheap, small lathe and beating up on that makes more sense than doing it on a precision lathe.


 Yes I'm considering that too. Maybe I should put it that way : how likely is it that a beginner damage/spoil a precision lathe because of screwups? It is realistic to think that, with reasonnable care, I will not damage a nice lathe during my learning process? Or is it going to happen sooner or later (damage it to some extend? what extend more specificly??

That's a big part of my thinking. Because if it's more or less garanteed that sooner of later I will crash the lathe badly (to the point of making some serious damage on the lathe itself) I perfer to crash a "cheap" lathe, learn, re-crash and learn more, and when I'm decent in what I do, get a nicer machine.

Only thing is generally speaking I'm not a "buy cheap first then resale and buy another better one later" guy. I've always prefered to get the better one I can afford, as a long term investiment, and keep it. Now if there is a real valid reason not to do this (damage it is a valid reason for sure) I can reconsider of course.

One thing is that the 8x12 LatheMaster needs gear change for changing spindle speed. That sucks I think. Also the spindle bore is not even 1" and that sucks too.

Does anyone know the answer to this question "Is the spindle bore a feature of the lathe itself, or a feature of the spindle? In which case changing it can do the trick."

Thanks for all the advise :thumbsup:


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## tino_ale (Nov 17, 2007)

TranquillityBase said:


> Ti will dry cut fine, I rough .200" per pass, without oil or coolant.....


Wait, you rough 5mm per pass on Ti oo: That's a typo right?


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## Anglepoise (Nov 17, 2007)

tino_ale said:


> Does anyone know the answer to this question "Is the spindle bore a feature of the lathe itself, or a feature of the spindle? In which case changing it can do the trick."



Large lathes manufacturers often offer a couple of choices in spindle internal bore. You then match up your chuck bore size to the spindle.

With smaller lathes, the manufacterer does all these calculations for you and usually just offers one combination. However do NOT presume anything in todays world of 'marketing rules everything'.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 18, 2007)

The spindle bore is the opening that goes the length of the hollow spindle upon which the check is mounted. To pass a 1 inch bar through the spindle you need a chuck with > 1 inch hole in the middle and a spindle with > 1 inch bore.

External work on a 2D mag can be done with small lathes. Boring long lights usually requires that the light is mounted so most of it is in the spindle bore so you can have room to move the carriage upon which the tool is mounted.

Can you dislike turning metal? Sure. It's exacting work, though not physically demanding. It's messy work, with chips and coolant flying off at high speed. Work with cast iron and yo get black dust everywhere. Work with steel and you have razor sharp chips embedded in your shoes and tracked around the house. It's quite possible to spend several hours making a light, only to accidently ruin it by cutting something too deep or too far.

Can you ruin it? Sort of. You can break gears, burn out motors and gouge the bed. You can break tools, run the compound into the jaws of the chuck, over tighten all sorts of things.

It's a very good idea to try something cheap before buying a mid-class bench lathe. Cheapest way is using one at a school or someone elses shop. A small lathe will NOT be the same as a bigger one, since it generally means taking lighter cuts, so tasks take a bit longer. If you enjoy using a small one you WILL enjoy the big one.


Dan


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## TranquillityBase (Nov 18, 2007)

tino_ale said:


> Wait, you rough 5mm per pass on Ti oo: That's a typo right?


No typo tino, .200" is not a problem for most machines in the 220 volt, 2hp range...Unfortunately my lathe has a single drive belt, so I go through a lot of belts.

The *crash-and-damage* thought is horse poop...Use your head, and you will not damage your machine while learning (damage tooling, yes...but I doubt you will damage the machine)...If you have the mechanical ability to run the lathe, you will have the knowledge and confidence to repair it, if you truly damage something.


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## will (Nov 18, 2007)

TranquillityBase said:


> The *crash-and-damage* thought is horse poop...Use your head, and you will not damage your machine while learning (damage tooling, yes...but I doubt you will damage the machine)....



I agree - most likely a tool will break before the lathe.


OK - a bit of a safety note here. These machines have a lot of power, Think about how much force is required to break a tool. I suggest that anyone new to using any machine take full note of safety issues involved.


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## frisco (Nov 18, 2007)

The one i've heard about most over the years for both mill and lathe is....... gloves! Never wear gloves. So tempting to flick some chips away and the glove (hand/arm) get wrapped around real fast.

The thing I'm gonna have to get used to is taking off my neck carry/lanyard before working on the machines.

Years ago when I bought my full size mill, I hired the head instructor at the local Junior college. The first thing I asked the instructor to go over was "How do people get hurt on these things"

frisco


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## tino_ale (Nov 18, 2007)

Yep, no gloves, no large clothes, no watch, no jewelry...

It looks doable to learn from forums/books but there are still some stuff that are hard to know without direct teaching from someone who will watch you and correct you. The first that come in mind : how hard should I tighten the chuck? Someone teaching you will show you, make you feel and check your tightening. In 1 min time, you know. From books, it may not be clear. "You should tighten hard" ok, so how hard is "hard"? That was just a dumb example I know...


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## frisco (Nov 18, 2007)

Yah.... Back when I bought my mill (Brand spanking new right off the floor at a San Jose Machine Show) there was no internet and the biggest machine I had was a drill press. I figured 2-3 hundred dollars @ $25 per hour for private lessons was just an added cost to the machine so I wouldn't kill myself! 

frisco


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## TranquillityBase (Nov 18, 2007)

tino_ale said:


> Yep, no gloves, no large clothes, no watch, no jewelry...
> 
> 
> 
> > It looks doable to learn from forums/books but there are still some stuff that are hard to know without direct teaching from someone who will watch you and correct you. The first that come in mind : how hard should I tighten the chuck? Someone teaching you will show you, make you feel and check your tightening. In 1 min time, you know. From books, it may not be clear. "You should tighten hard" ok, so how hard is "hard"? That was just a dumb example I know...


 
Sounds like it's time for you to order the lathe


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## will (Nov 18, 2007)

I worked a few years as a prototype machinist in a small shop. The foreman and I were the only ones that had all our fingers, ( out of 7 other workers ) I had him teach me. The only injury I sustained was on a lathe that was not running. I had sharpened a large drill bit and put it in the tailstock. Someone called me and as I turned my hand bumped into the the very sharp drill and sliced the outside of my right hand . I still have a one inch scar there. Did I say I really can sharpen a drill bit so it cuts like a knife...


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## gadget_lover (Nov 18, 2007)

tino_ale said:


> Yep, no gloves, no large clothes, no watch, no jewelry...
> 
> It looks doable to learn from forums/books but there are still some stuff that are hard to know without direct teaching from someone who will watch you and correct you. The first that come in mind : how hard should I tighten the chuck? Someone teaching you will show you, make you feel and check your tightening. In 1 min time, you know. From books, it may not be clear. "You should tighten hard" ok, so how hard is "hard"? That was just a dumb example I know...




The example is not a dumb one. That exact question has been asked here more than once. I asked it at least once. 

I learned to use my lathe and mill using the internet, CPF and books as resources. If you have a machine to test your understanding it goes pretty well. I'm not an expert, but I can generally make anything that I really want to make.

Some of the things that are hard to convey without seeing it in real life or understanding the principle involved:
How deep should you cut.
How tight should the chuck be?
What shape tool do you need.
What is rake and relief and why does it matter.
What feed rate is correct?
How accurate do I need for each application?

My first project took an evening to cut matching 1/2 inch long tapers on a AAA flashlight so I could join them with a press fit. I took off .001 to .002 per pass.  It did work. Now I routinely take big bites of alum and plastic and could finish that first project in minutes.

Daniel


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## Anglepoise (Nov 18, 2007)

All great stuff above.

Something else you might keep in mind. We old folk love to show and help.
It used to be called mentoring but today no one has time any more and 'hobbies' have become a thing of the past ( apart from CPF ). Also we have all become more carefull about who we invite into our homes. This is sad, but a fact of life. 

Look around where you live and inquire if there are any clubs, night school classes etc. If you can find someone that teaches 'lathe work' as their profession, there will be a very good chance that that individual knows lots of people within the area that could help. Just an evening spent in the basement workshop of an enthusiast should answer most of your questions and give you a very good point to start from. And having someone within driving distance will be GREAT. Once a relationship gets going with 'an old fart' you will find that both parties benefit enormously. We love to pass on our knowledge and the 'student, sucks it up like a sponge.
Also, said somewhat tongue in cheek,we have to find someone to leave all this stuff to in our wills.



Good luck....


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## tino_ale (Nov 21, 2007)

I've got quite some material to make a decision LatheMaster vs Wabeco. It it was the Wabco, I'm not sure which model exactly though...

Anyway I appreciate all the good advise :wave:

Of course when the day comes, I'll post images and more


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## schrenz (Jan 30, 2008)

Hi Tino,
just seen this threat today .

If you are still searching for a lathe or especially if you have chosen a Wabeco I have some advices:
-have a look at ebay.de, there are always Wabeco lathes in auction.
-Wabeco is selling slightly used machines from exhibitions or something similar direktly from their factory, their second factory is near Bitburg at the border triangle Germany-France-Luxembourg ) a lot of Americans know this city, 5km away from the Spangdalen-Airbase  ), often the lathes are over 1000 € cheaper than their list price, for this saving even from Paris a local-pick-up might be profitable.
If you have any questions, send me a mail, if you want, I can do a phone-call to Wabeco (they have an excellent customer service).

I have a Wabeco lathe for myself, a version of the 2400 with a 400 Volt three-phase-current motor, to my opinion these lathes are better than the chinese ones, but if its worth such a high price, can only be your own decision.

Best regards
Jens


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## tino_ale (Feb 4, 2008)

Thanks a lot for all great stuff above and good-to-knows.
I'm still strongly thinking about getting a Wabecco, but I need to save up for it. I just see too many opportunities to use a lathe for Flashlight stuff as well as RC hobby.
I really hope it will be for 2008... when the time comes I'll keep you all teased with pics :nana:


schrenz said:


> Hi Tino,
> just seen this threat today .
> 
> If you are still searching for a lathe or especially if you have chosen a Wabeco I have some advices:
> ...


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## schrenz (Feb 7, 2008)

Hi,
like I wrote before, you can PM me, if you have any questions or need some help for dealing with Wabeco.
Best
Jens


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## tino_ale (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks schrenz that is much appreciated. I'll let you know when time comes, for now I just can't afford it and I haven't enought room where I am now... might move this year.


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## jch79 (Feb 7, 2008)

Alex,

If you get one of these, just FYI, I'm coming to Paris to live with you. :thumbsup: Hope that's alright. :nana:

:tinfoil: john


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## tino_ale (Feb 7, 2008)

Wow really?!! Sure that's allright :kiss::thinking:

Tell me when you're over here, if you need any supportI 'd be happy to help  (could be tough time for you if you don't speak french)


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## tino_ale (May 28, 2008)

I was (again and again) looking for information about Wabeco lathe and alternative when I stepped on this thread :

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=75606&highlight=wabeco

Can anyone help me understand about this :



> there is no carriage power feed. The machine only has a lead screw which you should not use for feed, only for thread turning. So it's a 100% "manual lathe".
> Not having power feed, there is of course no quick-change gearbox.





> A lathe without separate (not leadscrew) power carriage and crossfeed is not a good deal.



Thanks!!


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## Anglepoise (May 28, 2008)

The lead screw is designed for threading only and is engaged and disengaged with bronze half nuts. Now some people use this 'lead screw' as a power feed.

This will accelerate wear in the half nuts and then all your beautiful threads you need will not fit.

So its not a good idea. However a lathe without power carriage and / or cross feed is perfectly workable and most people quickly adapt to manual turning of the round feed controls.


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## white light (May 28, 2008)

Hello thier,I just caught this thread.Sorry I have not seen this earlier.Here is a link to a very very well made import.
Look for the Supra 550 http://www.knuth.de:80/v1/frameset_usa.htm It is a step up from most of what I have seen in its class.I also had the chance to see and use one inperson and was very impressed with it.It to me seems under priced for the quality you will get.If I had not already bought my Lathe Master,this is the one I would have chooses with no questions asked!! 
As for the Wabeco;it is a great high quality lathe that is over priced.Haveing spoken with many people(in my own search for a good quality small lathe) that have used them thier is really know difference between them and the Prazzi(they all own Prazzi lathes for personal use when thier not at work).I personaly have a 12 year old Prazzi MD 200 that still works like knew.And beleave me its been used for well over what it was ment for.
I also agree completely with the others,Save some $$$ for tooling.I have in my own shop easily about 5000.00 + in milling and turning tooling bits.Here are some more usefull links that helped me out;

http://thehobbyistmachineshop.com/ great review on the LM 8x14

http://www.lathes.co.uk/ Wow !!!!

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/default.php great tooling and pricing for the mini 

mill and lathe

Hope this helps you out.
Jesse


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## wquiles (May 29, 2008)

white light said:


> http://thehobbyistmachineshop.com/ great review on the LM 8x14
> 
> http://www.lathes.co.uk/ Wow !!!!
> 
> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/default.php great tooling and pricing for the mini


Great links. I have quite a number of purchases from the LMS, mostly thanks to Daniel 

That review of the LM 8x14 (same machine as my HF 8x12 - although no-body can argue that the setup/preparation/package from LM is much nicer!), and a few more reviews (http://annisquamgranite.com/8x12ReviewPg1.htm ) of this import 8x14 lathe was one of the main reasons I am moving from the Cummins 7x12 to the HF 8x12 (which is really a 8x14!). If you look at the photos showing the 8x14 next to the 7x12, it is easy to see how much stronger, stiffer, and heavier the 8x14 machine really is (approx 80 lbs vs. 190lbs).

Still, for learning and starting the variable DC speed on the 7x12 is great 

Will


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## sskyy (May 29, 2008)

white light said:


> Hello thier,I just caught this thread.Sorry I have not seen this earlier.Here is a link to a very very well made import. _http://www.knuth.de:80/v1/frameset_usa.htm _It is a step up from most of what I have seen in its class.I also had the chance to see and use one inperson and was very impressed with it.It to me seems under priced for the quality you will get.


Which model are you referring to? The link isnt bringing up a specific model for me?
Thanks


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## white light (May 29, 2008)

sskyy said:


> Which model are you referring to? The link isnt bringing up a specific model for me?
> Thanks


 
You want to click on lathes in main page.Than click on conventional lathes,than scroll down and look for the supra 550.It is a well built machine.


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## KC2IXE (May 29, 2008)

Anglepoise said:


> The lead screw is designed for threading only and is engaged and disengaged with bronze half nuts. Now some people use this 'lead screw' as a power feed.
> 
> This will accelerate wear in the half nuts and then all your beautiful threads you need will not fit.
> 
> So its not a good idea. However a lathe without power carriage and / or cross feed is perfectly workable and most people quickly adapt to manual turning of the round feed controls.



There were numerious lathes (say the Atlas as an example) that used the leadscrew as a power feed. You're right in that it will wear the halfnuts/leadscrew a lot faster, but when you consider how much (read little) use the average "home shop" lathe gets, it's usually an acceptable tradeoff


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## tino_ale (May 30, 2008)

Thanks for the replies,

As for the lead screw vs. real power feed, I was under the impression that the real separate power feed is never available on the smaller lathe. I'm talking about any lathe that is movable by 3 people maximum (wabeco, LM 8x14 etc). Is there any bench lathe that actually has this power feed?

Then, about having or not the cross feed, I am under the same impression. That cross feed is not something that any bench lathe is offering. Please correct me if I'm wrong...

Now, if you only have a lead screw, should you avoid using it as a carriage power feed as much as possible, using it only for the finish pass?

The problem that persist is that I would like to have a 1" spindle bore and it really seems unavailable on these small machines. Wabeco does offer a 30mm spindle bore option though, but I believe you loose something else on the spindle, just can't remember what.

Last thing I have noticed about the CNC wabeco lathe. They seem to offer something very interresting : you can still use them manually. I am not sure if the motors don't spoil the ease of use and manual feel of the levers etc, but it's a nice feature.

Yet it seems that the Wabeco CNC lathe do not offer threading capabilities... :sick2::green: why is that? that really sucks if you have to make all the threading manually.


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## wquiles (May 30, 2008)

tino_ale said:


> Yet it seems that the Wabeco CNC lathe do not offer threading capabilities... :sick2::green: why is that? that really sucks if you have to make all the threading manually.



I don't know what it means to do "threading manually", but to do threading you "need" the carriage to be moving with a strict relationship to the piece held in the chuck: usually done by changing gears for the right "turns per inch (mm)" and engaging the carriage to "clamp" to the lead screw at the "right" point (this is where having the thread indicator is great!). 

If threading manually means you don't have the ability to lock the chuck/carriage to that this relationship by the gears is constant for the whole threading operation (which means making several pases), then I would skip this lathe and get one that truly supports threading 

At least that is how I learn to do threads here by *gadget_lover* and *cmacclel*. Then again I am still a newbie 


Will


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## tino_ale (May 30, 2008)

> you "need" the carriage to be moving with a strict relationship to the piece held in the chuck: usually done by changing gears for the right "turns per inch (mm)" and engaging the carriage to "clamp" to the lead screw at the "right" point (this is where having the thread indicator is great!).


 
Yes the Wabeco lathe can do that, by the mean of a lead screw and changing gears to get the TPI setting you want.

But I was talking about the CNC version of their lathe. On a website I read a note saying the CNC doesn't support threading. Basically, I am such a noob that I do not even know what happens when a CNC lathe is threading. Is it using the same gears and lead screw system as we do manually?


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## Anglepoise (May 30, 2008)

tino_ale said:


> Thanks for the replies,
> 
> As for the lead screw vs. real power feed, I was under the impression that the real separate power feed is never available on the smaller lathe. I'm talking about any lathe that is movable by 3 people maximum (wabeco, LM 8x14 etc). Is there any bench lathe that actually has this power feed?
> 
> ...




You are correct. True power feed for carriage and cross slide are usually only available on machines larger than 3 people can lift.
Any machine that offers 'threading' will have some 'power' method of moving the carriage back and worth in sync with the chuck.

Now people who own these 'lead screw only machines' have been know from time to time to use the 'lead screw as a power feed. Not recommended, but as member KC2IXE infers, you will probably get away with it for short term use.

1" spindle bore is only available on large machines but users have been able to use larger chucks to in some way get around the small spindle bore.
If you can attach a 6" chuck and its 5" deep, then con can grip 5", before the item to be machined hits the spindle nose. However this might on might not overload the spindle bearings due to the weight of a 6" chuck.

A CNC machine threads automatically once programed. Operating a CNC manually requires starting and stopping yourself but the power is still usable to move the carriage.
( General statement, not sure exactly how Wabeco CNC might differ)

I commend you on the research you are doing. Having a true understanding of what you intend to make on your lathe will help in the right purchase for you.

I am in the camp that recommends 'old American iron' as a first lathe, but 
still marvel over the quality that some people are getting with 'bench tops'.
l


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## gadget_lover (May 30, 2008)

I would suggest that the power feed is much less desirable when turning small pieces. There is something more intuitive about stopping at the right spot when turning a hand wheel as opposed to when flipping a switch.

Using a power feed for longer pieces makes a lot more sense, especially for the final pass since you get a nice, steady feed which makes for a better finish.

On smaller lathes you also get a better feel for the cut when using a hand-wheel. How do I know this? I've used the lead screw as power feed. 

Daniel
Daniel


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## Anglepoise (May 30, 2008)

gadget_lover said:


> On smaller lathes you also get a better feel for the cut when using a hand-wheel.
> 
> Daniel
> Daniel




Good point Gadget. I can't remember when I last used my cross slide power feed. Most of my work is small fiddly stuff that needs a light touch.


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## tino_ale (Apr 21, 2009)

Does anyone knows what's the spindle nose of the Wabeco lathe?

Can you mount any widely available chuck (like a 6-jaws set-tru :naughty or do you have to stick with Wabeco chuck offers, or make your own adapter?


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## saltytri (Apr 21, 2009)

You should email Markus at MDA Precision. He'll answer your questions promptly.


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## tino_ale (Jul 17, 2009)

From another thread :


saltytri said:


> tino-
> 
> I don't know why anyone would want bigger machines. These look really big compared to my Sherline stuff!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the good info.
Since you've done pretty much the same homework than me... 

1. Do you loose the spindle taper (MT2 if I recall correctly) while getting the 30mm spindle bore? I read this somewhere, if even if it's true I don't know if it is a big deal or not.
2. I understand on all Wabeco lathe, except the D3000 which has a separate infinite variable carriage power feed, you have just two advance speed that are switched using some gear change. How do you like these two speeds, are they good for finish pass? Since you're using in fact the threading feed as a power feed, you have to mess with gears to change your power feed right?
3. Do you have any information about the rigidity and ability of the D2000/2400/3000 serie vs. the one of the D4000/6000 ?
4. Generally speaking, do you find that standard tools readily available from ebay for instance are easily usable with the Wabeco or do you always have to get Wabeco tooling to avoid hassle? Like a QCTP & tool holders, chucks...
5. What do you mean by "Many machines better automate the threading process but I'm not in a big hurry" ? Do you mean the ability to disengage the carriage from the feed at each pass and being able to reengage it for the next without messing your thread? Or something else?

I was really into Wabeco machines at some point but now really I don't know anymore. For the price of such a small (yet very capable it is true) bench top machine you can get a Precision Mathew like some other members have purchased and these, even if made in China, seem to be pretty much ready for duty out of the box too.

I am like you, a beginner that can't afford the risk and head scratching of a poor quality china made machine, or a used machine. But it seems that some china made machines are both affordable and very well made, and for the price can offer many nice additionnal features (gearbox for TPIs, carriage+cross slide true power feeds using gearbox too, threading indicator for re-engaging in a thread...).

Anyway, the space needed is of course very different and that can't be discussed if you don't have it.

Thanks for your help


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## saltytri (Jul 17, 2009)

tino_ale said:


> From another thread :
> 
> Thanks for the good info.
> Since you've done pretty much the same homework than me...
> ...


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## tino_ale (Feb 19, 2013)

Hi all,

I wish to revive this thread as I am still researching on Wabeco lathes and alternatives. I have bounced back and forth between a decently good, big and heavy chinese lathe (like a PM 1236) and a high quality smaller and lighter machine : wabeco D6000. I am almost decided on the D6000, which I still need to save for, but I am planning on purchasing it this year.

If it's of any help to others having the same dilema, here is why I am leaning towards the wabeco.
- PM1236 equivalent are available here in France but priced much higher than even a PM lathe shipped to france including import taxes. Also customer service is poor from what I hear from those local resellers. Therefor I don't want to buy from them.
- ordering a PM1236 and paying for shipping is possible but risky. If I get a lemon, or if *anything* happens to the lathe during transit, it will immediately turn into a horror story as I can't imagine shipping anything back to the US to get a replacement. Support from Wabeco in case of an issue would be so much easier. Worst scenario I can imagine, I have to drive to their factory.
- A Wabeco is much much quieter, it's important for me
- it's much lighter yes but not too flimsy either (150kg)
- the wabeco is movable by 3-4 people by hand. The PM requires an engine hoist that I don't even have, that may not even fit in my tight shop
- wabeco offers a CNC conversion kit

I am aware of all the limitations of the smaller machine, but I figure I can live with them.
- 30mm spindle bore (which is pretty good but not huge either)
- rigidity, can't beat the weight of a 1250 pounds PM1236
- change gears needed but I figure I won't have to use them too often
- limited range of power feed, only 2 speeds
- no cross power feed
- no thread chasing dial

Right now I am chewing on the idea of getting the lathe in manual mode but equipped with ballscrews (wabeco offers this option but a retrofit is not possible, you have to get the option when you get the lathe) and CNC it later on when I have more funds and more experience. Sweet thing is that some of the limitation of the lathe (no power feed, change of gears, thread chasing dials...) become moot with such a CNC conversion.

The D6000 with the optional 30mm spindle bore, 2-axis DRO factory installed, ballscrews on both axis shipped to my door would set me back a hefty 6600 euros turnkey package. ($8800)
That's before a CNC retrofit which I figure would set me back $1000-$1500, so we're talking $10G for the complete machine.

The same D6000 without the ballscrews (meaning I just forget about a later CNC conversion) would be 5150 euros. ($6875)

I now have a good understanding of their offer but I can't help thinking that if I drop nearly $7000 for the manual lathe, why not just go all the way to CNC, spend $3000 more and offset the cost of all this making some small runs (typically those that machine shops won't do).
Going that route would also imply using a ballscrews equiped machine in full manual mode during months, that I don't know if it can be an issue (carriage and compound pushed back during cuts).


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## gadget_lover (Feb 19, 2013)

That's an interesting choice for that price range. That's a lot of money for a lathe that does not include a gearbox, thread chasing or power cross feed. 

I'm too lazy to look through the entire thread, but it seems the Emco (a european built lathe) would be more... complete and still be in the same general size and same general price range.

If you are going to go to CNC, by all means go for it now. Retrofits are a hassle. You have to reinvent all the tricks that the factory has already learned about making the CNC parts work right.

As I understand, ballscrews will work, but you need to lock whatever axis you are not using at the moment, and that sounds like a recipe for disaster. 

Daniel


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## tino_ale (Feb 20, 2013)

I am not aware you can purchase a new EMCO for the same price range ?? I guess you were talking about a good used lathe, but buying used is not an option for me as I am a real noob in lathes and that would be asking for bad luck...

Wabeco ARE costy indeed but I haven't found any alternative in the 150-200kg range offering the same level of precision, finish, price range, support...

Closest option I found was Klippfeld lathe but I have found literally no feedback on the internet of how the machine actually behave and how good or bad they are. They do seem very well finished and they are cheaper than wabeco but I can't just order that kind of equipment based on a corporate website.


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## precisionworks (Feb 22, 2013)

For about 16,500 EUR there are some nice sized CNC machines ... this one weighs 420 kg. Machine dimensions (LxWxH) 1885 x 805 x 1685 mm (6'x2.5'x5.5') so it's really compact. 







From what I've seen the machines priced around 10,000 EUR are pretty small. Not all bad if you need that size but you may easily outgrow the smaller machine in a short time. Plus the machine shown above (& other similar priced models) use a Siemens controller that's awfully common, easy to upgrade, lots of documentation, etc.






If you don't have all the money saved up now you might take The American Approach ... obtain a bank loan for the balance. I did that on my last lathe & my final payment is due this month !!!


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## tino_ale (Feb 24, 2013)

I appreciate your effort to contribute to my dilema, but that just seems to confirm what I have come to think : there is no alternative of this approx weight (say 125-250kg range), size, price, precision, fit and finish.

It's pretty obvious I have come to a "fork" now. Either I just drop the CNC idea altogether and in that case I may also drop the wabeco thing (many limitations as pointed previously) or I just smoke to bank account and pull the trigger on a CNC-from-the-start wabeco.


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