# Consumer Li-Ion "cradle" charger roundup...



## mdocod

Time to consolidate some of the useful facts about as many of these chargers as possible in one place for easy reference.

I have in front of me a few chargers to compare. I can insert additional information into this post as more information becomes available and testing is completed. 

------------

*The "infamous" DSD:*






(pictured with a Nokia 800mA power supply)

*General Product Information:*

Includes a "cell phone" style power supply rated ~350-450mA.
Included power supply is known for failing when used with 220V service.
2 short charging bays to accommodate 2xRCR123 (16340) cells. 2 Long charging bays to accommodate 17670 size cells. 50mm length cells can be fitted with 15mm dummy spacers. 18500 and 18650 cells are a tight squeeze and like to pop out.
This is a single channel charger that wires any 2 cells installed in parallel for simultaneous charging.
Nokia cell phone "chargers" can be used as alternative power supplies. Available up to 800mA from what I've seen. Becomes a much better charger with the better power supply IMO.
Will not initiate charge on cells inserted that are already above ~4.0V unless you manually cycle the input power off and on (unplug and plug back in).

*Charging Method:*
Constant Current at the transformers rated output (aprox) to ~4.25V, followed by true charge termination (no trickle charge). 






*Safety information/warnings:*

This is a relatively safe charger when working properly and used properly. The ~4.25V peak charging voltage is actually within the 4.20+/-0.05V recommended maximum charge voltage for most Lithium-Ion cells.
Because this is a single channel charger, it is important to take into consideration any pair of cells to be installed together in the charger. Ideally, they should be at least roughly matched for voltage. Within a few tenths of a volt would be fine. I would be concerned that if say- a large cell, like an 18650, that was nearly full, were inserted with a nearly dead RCR123, the effective charge current on the RCR123 could exceed maximum safe ratings by a substantial margin.
Since the power supply is external this charger performs it's duty without any significant heating of the cells.

------------

*UltrFire WF-139*





*General Product Information:*

Accommodates 2 cells. Spring loaded slots will adjust to fit 17500, 18500, 17670, or 18650 sizes. Slots are found for accommodating RCR123s but they are not activated on most units (unit can be dissembled and wires can be soldered in to activate the slots). Most will find that 15mm dummy spacers are the most practical solution to this.
Independent charging on each channel. Charging is rated at 450mA per channel. This seems to be overrated as most units charge at closer to 300mA per channel.
Internal power supply, no "wall-wort" transformer consuming valuable space on your rats nest of power cords and power strips.
Rated for use from 100-240V 50/60hz input.

*Charging method:*
Constant Current @~250-350mA per channel (seems to vary) with V-test every ~1 second (pauses charging for a fraction of a second to take the reading) till 4.20V V-test is achieved. Some models appear to have a current ramp down algorithm that kicks in towards the end of the charge but it is not a Constant Voltage charging method. I believe it is the newer versions with the ~5V open circuit behavior that has this ramp down algorithm built in.






*Safety Information/Warnings:*

The charging method used here is not recommended by any Li-Ion cell manufacture that I am aware of. On smaller cells charging voltage can reach and even exceed 4.35V. Small protected cells will often terminate the charge via PCB.
Charging voltage in excess of 4.25V may contribute to reduced cycle life and safety problems. 

Older models would continue to trickle charge after the light went "green" and could severely over-charge cells. This is very dangerous. The older model with this behavior can be identified by taking an open circuit voltage reading of a charging bay. The old version will read around ~11V. The new versions will read ~5V.
The WF-139 will heat cells slightly. The heat seems to be coming from the power supply more so than the cells themselves however. Not a major issue.
On some units, it has been reported that if a mostly charged cell is inserted into the charger, it doesn't seem to care that it doesn't need to be charged. it will just start charging anyways. The cell can be over-charged at this time as the chargers termination algorithm seems to get thrown out of whack in this circumstance. This could lead to cells being charged right up to 5V which can be extraordinarily dangerous.

------------

*Pila IBC*





*General Product Information:*

Includes a 6V 2.5A power supply "wall-wort" transformer.
2 charging slots support 17670 and 18650 size cells. Included spacers can be installed for use with 50mm length cells. RCR123s can be charged by using either an additional 15mm spacer, or a CR123 dummy cell.
Each channel charges completely independently. Each channel operates at 600mA CC maximum charge rate regardless of whether 1 or 2 cells are installed.
Includes reset buttons for each channel. (Many li-ion charger electronics will not even initiate a charge if a cell is installed wit ~4.0V or higher, the reset button lets you force the charge to start if you are above ~4.0V at the cell and want to top off).

*Charging Method:*
Constant Current @ 600mA per channel followed by Constant Voltage @ 4.20V +/- ~0.025V. True termination occurs when charge rate drops to ~50mA under CV stage. The charge rate maintains a constant ~600mA until 4.20V is reached. There is no taper down leading up to 4.2V CV stage. This is the ultimate charge method that provides all of the charge speed possible (given the CC rate) with all of the proper behaviors in place to meet li-ion cell manufacture recommendations. 






*Safety information/warnings:*

This charger follows quite a few manufactures charge recommendations for their 18650 and 18500 cells to a "T"
Charge rate is a little on the high side for RCR123s, but since it uses a safer charging algorithm, the higher charge rate is sort of offset by that.
Charges cool if you leave the lid up; However, with the lid shut this unit traps in some major heat during a charge! Charge with the lid open IMO.

*Other comments:*
Some users complain that the charge is sometimes terminated by lightly bumping the charger or the table that the charger is on during charging... When the charger does terminate as a result of a bump, you have nothing to be concerned about as the charge was approaching the last few minutes of the CV stage of charging anyways. In those final minutes, the charge current is very low, down around 75mA or less. A small bump could introduce enough temporary increase in resistance to cause the current flow to drop below 50mA momentarily which would trip the charge termination. The amount of charge lost here would be minuscule and is not a major issue of concern. 

The one major thing that really bothers me about this charger is the fact that it generates a lot of heat. It uses some good electronics to maintain proper charging rate and voltage, but often with charging accuracy comes the sacrifice of efficiency which means heat. With the lid open there doesn't seem to be a problem, everything stays cool. I'm not sure why they even included a "lid" on the charger. 

-----------

*SoShine SC-S1*

*General Product Information:*

Has 4 charging bays for charging up to 4 cells simultaneously.
*Theoretically* Accommodates cells ranging from 14250 all the way up to 18670 in size.
Internal switching power supply means no wall-wort transformers consuming your precious plug space on the power strip.
Each channel has independent termination however channels "I" and "II" share a common power supply, as do channels "III" and "IV." Effective charging rates are cut in half when both slots on the same power supply are loaded.
Claims 500mA combined charging for channels I and II, 1200mA combined charging for channels III and IV.
Claims 100-240V 50/60HZ input compatible, also there is a DC 12V input port.

*Charging Method:*
I think I have this nailed down but be aware that this is all my best educated guess. I did dissemble the unit to take a look at the circuit and components to confirm some of my initial suspicions. 

The charging happens in pulses from a capacitor. The capacitor is charged quickly off of the DC power supply and then the circuit between the capacitor and the cell is closed and the capacitor drains off it's power into the cell being charged. When 2 cells are installed in one of the pairs of channels that shares power, the capacitor dumping simply alternates between the 2 channels. So the duty cycle of the charging is cut in half. The effective charge rate is half over time, but the peak charging rate is actually still the same, so smaller cells be-ware.

The charge rate listed on the back of the charger is fairly accurate if you consider it as an average charge rate. Obviously, because of the charge method used here, it actually peaks quite a bit higher at the onset of each pulse. 

When the circuit between the cell and capacitor is severed momentarily for the capacitor "charge up" phase, a voltage reading of the cell is taken. When the "resting" voltage reaches ~4.20V the charge is terminated. Each channel has the ability to terminate individually...

*Safety Information/Warnings:*

The charging method used is not in accordance with any li-ion cell manufactures I am aware of.
The charging voltage is hard to measure without an oscilloscope because it's jumps up and down quickly. I have tried to capture some of the points in the charging voltage by quickly cycling the multi-meter on and off to prevent it from having a chance to average the output, the results are scary as I saw high points in the 9V range. Through most of the charge the average voltage is low enough not to trip the PCB.
Towards the end of the charge, the PCB in protected cells will often start kicking in on every pulse cycle (they are about 2 seconds long). Since the average voltage is above ~4.35V long enough to trip it in those cycles. But since the charge is terminated and re-initiated by the charging algorithm every ~2 seconds, the PCB keeps re-setting and allowing the beginning of the next charge "pulse" to ramp the voltage up again until it trips. This can't be good for the PCB.
The back of the charger includes a warning that it may cause cells to heat up during charging. It includes a nice spelling error to boot. We all know that a proper charging method should not heat cells much if any. In my testing, even relatively new AW 18650s are heating up in this charger with the lid open.
If you install a pair of cells of low capacity hoping to split the charging rate between the 2 cells to keep the charging rate within reason, think again. For one thing, the pulses of charge are still at the full rate but the duty cycle is half. For another thing, when one cell terminates, the other cell will be charged at maximum duty cycle for the remainder of the charge.
Charging voltage in excess of 4.25V may contribute to reduced cycle life and safety problems, this charger exceeds 4.25V during charging by substantial margins. 

*This charger has a counterfeit UL listing on the back of it. Isn't that nice? Yes I called UL to confirm my suspicions. *

*Other Comments:*

The fact that they slapped a counterfeit UL marking on the back of it bothers me more than anything to be honest. I guess I'm not surprised. If you make a charger with this bad a charging method, might as well just slap some good looking markings on the back of it for good measure. If you've already spilled the paint, might as well spill some more and go wild eh?

----------


*Nano (incomplete but this is all you really need to know)*


*General Product Information:*


Sold in large numbers over the last few years, especially to folks using smaller RCR2 size and 10440 type cells who needed low charging current for safety.
Has been included in "kits" with many flashlights that come with their first rechargeable cell and charger.
Wall-Wart only type charger. (The plug is right on the back of the unit, no cable is included).


*Charging Method:*
Can't recall, tested awhile back, seems like it was a modified taper down IIRC. 

*Safety information/warnings:*


Continues to charge after light turns green.
Over-charges cells to dangerous levels if left unattended.
Scary think that there are so many out there

*Other Comments:*
I do not like this charger. 

-----------

*CyTac Chargers:*
(courtesy CPF member *lebox97 @ illuminationgear.com*)
lebox97 contacted me and asked if I would be willing to run these 2 chargers through the paces and share the results very publicly. He has provided them to me free of charge in much the same way that several of the other chargers above have been given to me for testing or as gifts.






Both Cytac chargers seem to have a lot in common, you will notice I have literally copy/pasted many of the points to be made and only made minor changes to the points based on my measurements. 

*Cytac 2x18650 charger, "6105/HXY etc"*





*General Product Information:*


2 independent-channel charging bays intended for use with 18650 size 3.7V cells. My personal educated opinion is that 17670/18500/17500 can also be charged on this charger with care, the 50mm long cells will need a 15mm "spacer" to fill the void.
Manufacture Claimed output: 1A per channel
Internal transformer (no wall-warts)
100-240V 50/60hz input
None-Removable 120V wire/plug
Plenty of room for the really long 18650s (the 18690s  )
*Charging Method:*
Buck regulated 4.25V circuit with no termination current. No CC/CV is present here. The unit does not actually run the full current up to the destination voltage followed by tapering off of current the way a normal CC/CV would work. The current tapers downward in a semi-logarithmic fashion through the charge and never truly terminates. 






Some testing:
_[resting cell voltage, charge current, charge voltage_]
~[3.70V, 870mA, 3.83V]
~[3.80V, 870mA, 3.90V]
~[3.90V, 800mA, 4.00V]
~[4.00V, 590mA, 4.08V]
~[4.10V, 390mA, 4.15V]
~[4.15V, 270mA, 4.18V]


This testing proves that this charger is not a proper CC/CV, and also, shows that the average charging rate is lower than the manufacture claim. I would rate this around 700mA charging rate. The faked termination process is still painfully long to see a green light. 

*Safety information/warnings:
*

Light goes green on mine at ~4.22V
 Does not appear to actually stop charging when the light turns green. The light goes green when the cell is at about 4.22V, but I am still measuring ~70mA flowing to the cell.
Open circuit voltage is ~4.25V. My gut tells me that it will continue to trickle at a slower and slower pace all the way up to ~4.25V if the cell will continue to rise with the trickle charge.(would depend on the condition of the cell, but basically, any cell left in the charger will be subject to a continuous trickle trying to hold it at ~4.25 V and not settle down as preferred.
I must reiterate this point, this charger does not terminate at all.
Li-Ion manufactures do recommend a CC/CV charge method. The importance of a termination without a trickle charge is often emphasized.
The current ramp-down will trick most novice testers into thinking that it is a CC/CV, but it is not.
The charge method specified by cell manufactures involves a charging termination based on current dropping to a certain level (usually ~50mA). This charger does not do this, and it does not maintain the CC charge rate to 4.20V either. This will translate to longer than expected charge times that are unnecessary.
Charging beyond 4.20V is generally frowned upon as cycle life really starts going downhill above 4.20V.
 *Other Comments:*
I have been given confirmation that this is the same as SKU6105 from DX. The nice high charging rate of this charger is totally ruined by the fact that for the last 50% of the charge of the cell, it is constantly tapering down the output. It will take just as long to charge a cell in this as it would to charge with a charger rated for 35% less charge rate and a proper CC/CV method. Perhaps even longer. 

----

*Cytac CY-015* (could this be a TrustFire TR-001/2?)





*General Product Information:*


2 independent-channel charging bays intended for use with 3.7V cell ranging from 16340 (RCR123) size up to 18650
Manufacture Claimed output: 500mA per channel
No cell spacers required. Lots of spring travel in the negative contacts
Internal transformer (no wall-warts)
100-240V 50/60hz input
Removable 120V wire/plug
Option to run on 12V input (adapter required)
Plenty of room for the really long 18650s (the 18690s  )
 
*Charging Method:*
Buck regulated 4.25V circuit with no termination current. No CC/CV is present here. The unit does not actually run the full current up to the destination voltage followed by tapering off of current the way a normal CC/CV would work. The current tapers downward in a semi-logarithmic fashion through the charge and never truly terminates. 






Some testing:
_[resting cell voltage, charge current, charge voltage]_
~[3.70V, 560mA, 3.79V]
~[3.80V, 510mA, 3.86V]
~[3.90V, 440mA, 3.93V]
~[4.00V, 310mA, 4.03V]
~[4.10V, 180mA, 4.13V]
~[4.15V, 110mA, 4.18V]

This testing proves that this charger is not a proper CC/CV, and also, shows that the average charging rate is lower than the manufacture claim. (By my estimates, you can expect about a ~375mA charging rate average). The faked termination point (green light) will take much longer than anticipated based on charge speed claims. 

*Safety information/warnings:
*

Light goes green on mine at ~4.23V
 Does not appear to actually stop charging when the light turns green. The light goes green when the cell is at about 4.23V, but I am still measuring ~20mA flowing to the cell.
Open circuit voltage is ~4.25V. My gut tells me that it will continue to trickle at a slower and slower pace all the way up to ~4.25V if the cell will continue to rise with the trickle charge.(would depend on the condition of the cell, but basically, any cell left in the charger will be subject to a continuous trickle trying to hold it at ~4.25 V and not settle down as preferred.)
I must reiterate, this charger does not terminate at all.
Li-Ion manufactures do recommend a CC/CV charge method. The importance of a termination without a trickle charge is often emphasized.
The current ramp-down will trick most novice testers into thinking that it is a CC/CV, but it is not.
The charge method specified by cell manufactures involves a charging termination based on current dropping to a certain level (usually ~50mA). This charger does not do this, and it does not maintain the CC charge rate to 4.20V either. This will translate to longer than expected charge times that are unnecessary.
Charging beyond 4.20V is generally frowned upon as cycle life really starts going downhill above 4.20V.
 
*Other Comments:
*As you may have noticed, this charger appears to share a common body with a trustfire TR-001 charger. Other sources have identified that the internal circuit is different from the trustfire. The comments above for the 2x18650 charger about the circuit type likely hold true for this charger as well; Both chargers have the same behavioral traits modified by different charging rates and such. The charging rate of this charger is totally ruined by the fact that through the charge, the charge rate is constantly tapering downward.

-------------------------

*YOHO-122




* 
*General Product Information:*



2 independent charging bays intended for use with 18500, 17670, and 18650 size cells. 17500 cells could also be charged just fine IMO.
 Manufacture claimed 1A per channel charging rate
 no cell spacers required for cell sizes listed above. Pull-up spring loaded contacts for 50mm length cells.
Internal transformer (no wall-warts)
100-240V 50/60hz input
None-Removable 120V wire/plug
Plenty of room for the really long 18650s (the 18690s  )
Fastest charger I have tested to date but still falls short of the manufacture claim of 1A charging rates, especially when averaged out.
*Charging Method:*

Simulated (faked) CC/CV style charging with a final clamp set at 4.20V. Light goes green with cell at 4.20V with ~30mA still flowing, current continues to flow after the light turns solid green. The 1A claimed charging rate over-rated substantially, especially when averaged through the charge. Appears to lack a true termination. Not good. Trickle charge slows to maintain 4.20V as necessary. (no charge termination is present).

What's interesting is that, the unit actually allows charging voltage to rise to ~4.25V early on. Something kicks in, either an algorithm, or triggered by reduced current flow, to pull back the throttle to 4.20V towards the end. This charging method is in a way, sort of like taking the best of 2 charger styles and cramming into 1. Many CC-only chargers charge nice and fast because they skip the slow-down at the end of the charge, the problem is, many of them achieve charging voltages that are higher than what I consider ideal. My feeling is that, in order to be "in compliance" one should try not to exceed 4.25 Vcharge. this charger does this is a way that "cheats out" a fast charge time without introducing unacceptably high charge voltages. In it's own way, this is pretty neat. If i could have this charge method combined with a true termination (no trickle) I would be a happy person.






Some testing:
_cell voltage, charge rate_/charge voltage
3.70V, 900mA
3.80V, 750mA
3.90V, 650mA
4.00V, 600mA
4.10V, 500mA
4.15V, 460mA/4.22V

*Safety/Information/Warnings:*



 Open circuit voltage of 0.58V
 Will charge over-discharged cells (good or bad thing, depends on your preference) The green light does not come on at all with over-discharged cells, but it is charging.
 Does not appear to actually stop charging when the light turns solid green. The light goes solid green when the cell is at about 4.20V, but I am still measuring ~30mA flowing to the cell. This seems to taper off pretty quickly (a few minutes later, I am measuring ~2.5mA and falling).
I must reiterate, this charger does not terminate at all.
Li-Ion manufactures do recommend a CC/CV charge method. The importance of a termination without a trickle charge is often emphasized. this charger lacks that termination.
The charge method specified by cell manufactures involves a charging termination based on current dropping to a certain level (usually ~50mA). This charger does not do this. It will try to hold a cell at 4.20V all the time. This is not healthy for cells. New cells won't suffer much, but aged cells on this charger for a long period of time could be dangerous.
This is the only li-ion charger I own that makes a noticeable high pitch buzzing sound.
------------

*"DX SKU: 22576" 1x18650 charger*
*(provided for testing by lebox97)*




*
General Product Information:*



 Support for 1x18650 size cell, (based on charge rate advertised, I would assume that any size li-ion cell down to ~300mAH capacity could be charged with the appropriate spacers)
 Manufacture claimed 250mA charging rate
 Manufacture claimed "Automatically stops when charging is complete"
 100-240V 50/60hz input rated
 No cord, spade plug on back (not retractable)
 
*Charging method:*
Steadily diminishing current through the charge. Green light is always on if plugged in, red light comes on when charging, red light begins to dim as the cell approaches the clamped output voltage of the unit. On mine, the red light turns out with the cell at 4.15V and 10mA still flowing to the cell. This charger does not terminate. 







Cell voltage/charge current/charge voltage
~3.0V/330mA
~3.7V/260mA
~3.8V/240mA
~3.9V/210mA
~4.0V/180mA
~4.1V/160MA
~4.14V/50mA/4.16V


*Safety/Information/Warnings:*



 Open circuit voltage ~4.17V
 Charge does not terminate but the red light goes out when cell is at about 4.15V
 Again, no termination, this unit will hold a cell at ~4.16-4.17V indefinitely via trickle charging.
 On my sample, the clamped output voltage is so much lower than most of these other "tricklers" that I would feel more comfortable with this charger I suppose. (Most new li-ion cells will hold a 4.20V charge naturally for days or even weeks, so having a charger hold a cell up at 4.17V or so would likely not cause hardly any wear and tear on a new cell. The danger of this charger would kick in as cells age.
 The charging speed is close to advertised if you average it out. Yep folks, unfortunately, it's just as slow as advertised. Plan on a good 10-12+ hours to top up an 18650 if you've drained it off a ways.
 Here's an interesting consideration: If you combine the fact that it takes a really long time to charge, which means that the charge will not be supervised, with the fact that this charger does trickle, it's likely that cells are going to be trickled by this charger because the user is probably going to wind up leaving cell on accidentally for hours and days beyond the charge completing very often.
Proper termination with absolutely no form of trickle charge is one of the most important considerations in designing a li-ion charger. This charger lacks this important feature.
 
*Other Comments:*

Just another one to add to the list of trickle charging li-ion chargers that should be scrapped.


-------------

*"DX SKU 3499" 2x18650 Digital Charger*
*(provided for testing by lebox97)*





*General Product Information:*




 Compatible with 3.7V li-ion cells up to 18650 in size. Spacers can be used for most other sizes if charge rate is considered into the equation.
 Manufacture claimed 600mA charging rate
 No cord, flat spade plugs are on a retracting assembly right on the unit.
 100-240V 50/60hz compatibility
 
*Charging Method:*

Holds constant current pretty well up to around 4V at the cell. Followed by a gentle sloping downward in current to the cell/s. This is actually a single channel charger with 2 slots wired in parallel. All of the charging speeds listed below are based on a single cell in a single slot. Adding an additional cell will split the charging speed between the 2 cells. Single LED status light changes from red to green when the cell is ~4.20-4.22V. The green light unfortunately does not mean that it has stopped charging, but, should rather be considered a warning to take the cell out before it trickles it up higher and higher. Like the other chargers I have tested that fail to properly prevent trickle charging, this one will likely try to bring the cell up to an equilibrium with the output voltage. In this case, I would not be surprised to see ~4.26V on a cell if it were left on a few extra hours or overnight by accident. 





Cell voltage/charge current/charge voltage
~3.0V/650mA 
~3.7V/630mA
~3.8V/630mA
~3.9V/630mA
~4.0V/610mA
~4.1V/510MA
~4.15V/300mA/4.20V
~4.18V/250mA/4.23V
~4.20V/150mA/4.25V

*Safety/Information/Warnings:*



 Open circuit voltage: 4.27V
 Cells installed together should be in a similar state of charge when possible to prevent high currents from flowing from one cell to another in this parallel wired unit.
 This charger does not terminate, After the light turns green it continues to charge in the same manner as so many of these other chargers I have tested recently.
Proper termination with absolutely no form of trickle charge is one of the most important considerations in designing a li-ion charger. This charger fails this critical capability and could trickle cells to above 4.25V if accidentally left charging for a long period of time.
Charging beyond 4.20V is generally frowned upon as cycle life really starts going downhill above 4.20V.
 
*Other Comments:*

There is a UL logo on the box, I suspect it is fake as is the case with every li-ion cradle charger that has carried a UL mark that I am aware of. My theory is, if a company who builds a product does not respect the law of the land in which they intend to sell that product, but even worse, mocks the law in this fashion, should we really trust that they have built a safe product for you? I can tell you that this is not a safe product. Also, the springs are a PITA as they like to fold under as you try to slip the cell into place. 

-------------

*Rodee AD-108*
*(provided for testing by lebox97)*





*General Product Information:*



 Support for 2x3.7V 17670/18650 size li-ion cells or 2x3.7V RCR123/16340 size cells with pull-up tab connections. Should also work for 14500/17500/18500 with a 15mm spacer.
 Manufacture claimed 300mA charging rate per channel
 External 12V 1A transformer with spade plugs rated 100-240V 50/60hz input
 
*Charging Method:*

This unit maintains a steady slow pace of ~250mA through the majority of the charge, charging rate starts to taper off above 4.10V (cell voltage, not charging voltage). There is a protection of sorts built in to prevent a charge from being initiated if the cell is above ~4.10V when inserted. I have not figured out what method the charger uses to decide when to terminate. I am not detecting any pulses for a voltage check the way a WF-139 would. I will have to rig up more testing to come to a conclusion. 






Cell voltage/charge current
~3.0V/250mA
~3.7V/250mA
~3.8V/250mA
~3.9V/250mA
~4.0V/250mA
~4.1V/240mA
~4.20V/N/A/4.25V
~4.25V/N/A/4.28V
*Will not initiate a "red-light" charge on a cell loaded that is above ~4.10V- however, it does still seem to charge the cell and float it up to over 4.20V.. see below. 


*Safety/Information/Warnings:*



 Open circuit voltage: ~10.7V
 Charge voltage went to 4.28V on an 18500 with the cell coming off the charger at 4.25V. This is way higher than I would want.
 [edit in 7/18/10]I did some more testing and have come to the conclusion that this charger lacks proper termination and will hold a cell at ~4.26V after the light turns green like many other chargers I have tested.
 Charges below advertised speed
 I suspected that perhaps the high termination was related to me tricking it into re-initiating the charge with a cell above 4.10V (I put another load in parallel for a moment to drag the voltage down a bit and force the charger to re-initiate for testing purposes). I went back and ran charges starting with cells ~4V and it still brought them up to ~4.25V for termination.
Charging voltage in excess of 4.25V may contribute to reduced cycle life and safety problems. 
Charging beyond 4.20V is generally frowned upon as cycle life really starts going downhill above 4.20V.
 
*Other Comments:*
The springs are pretty lousy, they want to fold down sideways when you are trying to install the cell. The abnormally high open circuit voltage is just weird to me but not terribly worrisome. Charging speed is more appropriate for RCR123s than 18650s IMO. 

-------------

*XTAR WP6 and XTAR WP6 II*
(Credit to CPF members SilverFox and Jake25 [SBflashlights LLC] respectively)






*General Product Information WP6*:



 6 independent charging bays charge up to 6X 14670-18650 size cells.
 Manufacture claimed CC/CV charging algorithm with termination at 4.2V +/-1%
 Manufacture claimed 600mA CC charging rate (+/-10%).
 AC transformer and car adapter included.
 6 small magnets included for charging non-button top cells.
 
*Charging Method WP6*:



 Cells below ~3V are charged at <80mA until voltage comes up.
 ~550-600mA CC till charging voltage reaches ~3.95-4.0V. In most cases this correlates with a cell SOC of a little over 50%.
 Charge current tapers downward steadily through the final ~40-50% of the charge. Termination seems to occur ~50-100mA.
 Termination voltage from bay to bay varies from 4.18-4.23V. (Each bay is consistent from one termination to the next, but each bay is slightly different than the next bay)
 
*Safety/Information/Warnings WP6*:



 Positive contacts in charger are recessed. Even some button top cells have a hard time making contact. Included magnets are a joke of a solution.
 Using charging spacers in the large open bay of the unit for charging shorter cells can be tricky. This is probably why there is no manufacture claimed support for cells shorter than 65mm.
 Open circuit voltage "lobes" from 4.0-4.5V. This does not seem to have any effect on the charge.
 Charger will not initiate a charge on a cell above ~4.1V unless the cell is first inserted, and power is cycled to the charger. (similar to IBC).
 Charger does in fact truly terminate.
 After termination; cells will sit and rest in the charger until resting voltage has dropped to ~4.05-4.10V before the charger re-initiates a top-up cycle. (if the power is cycled to the unit while the cells are resting in the charger, a top-up charge is likely to be initiated, keep this in mind)
 No "float" or Trickle charging after termination. (excellent!)
 Does not qualify as a "true" CC/CV charger because the CC part of the charge doesn't stay constant, however, there is no behavior in the charge process that violates any safety considerations.
 
*Other Comments WP6:*



 Properly terminates the charge and does not violate any noteworthy safety considerations for charging li-ion cells.
 If you have lots of 65-70mm long cells with button tops, this charger may prove to be a great value.
 If you are used to the charging speed on a per-cell basis of the Pila IBC, this will disappoint. The CC stage slow-down results in a very drawn out approach to 4.2V.
Can be added to the very short list of chargers that I would give a passing grade for safety.
 
-

*General Product Information WP6 II*:



 6X independent charging bays
 6X ~8mm screw-together and screw-in (similar to Pila IBC, but half the length) charging spacers are included
Manufacture claimed support for 10440/14500/14650/15270/16340/17670/18650/18700 size cells
 Manufacture claimed CC/CV charging algorithm with termination at 4.2V +/-1%
 Manufacture claimed 600mA CC charging rate (+/-10%)
 AC transformer and car adapter included
 Improved cell contacts for wider compatibility than previous generation.
 
*Charging Method WP6 II*:



 Cells below ~3V are charged at <100mA until voltage comes up.
 Charging circuitry is "shared" between pairs of charging bays. Counting from the left, bays 1+2, 3+4, and 5+6 are each pairs that effect each-others charging behavior and effective speed.
 A single cell installed into one of these "paired" slots will result in a constant current charging behavior averaging ~550-600mA produced via ~600-650mA charging current with ~90+% duty cycle. The "on-pulses" last about 3 seconds, and are interrupted by very short off-pulses. Any configuration of up to 3 cells loaded where no 2 cells are charging in "paired" slots will result in this charging behavior until the cell reaches ~75% SOC (varies depending on cell resistance). Above that point, the charge current begins to taper off. Pulses stay the same length, but the current during the pulse drops lower and lower through the remainder of the charge.
 A pair of cells installed into a pair of "shared circuitry" clots will results in a constant current charging behavior that averages ~550-600mA via ~1200-1300mA charging current with ~45% duty cycle. The on-pulse trades from one slot to the other equally as the charging progresses. The circuitry can only maintain the 1200+mA current during on-pulses into cells that are still at a relatively low state of charge. The average charging rate for cells above ~40% SOC slows down steadily as the SOC rises, as you may have guessed, the peak current in this configuration is about 600mA when the cell is at about 75% SOC, same as if you're charging a single cell, but in this case, at half the duty cycle per cell.
 In either case above, the final part of the charge comes to a culmination where the charge current (during on-pulses) is ~150mA (varies depending on cell resistance), (either dumped to 1 cell, or split between 2 depending on what you have loaded). Charging voltage can reach as high as 4.25V when charging small higher resistance cells, I have not observed a charging voltage above this, but I have not tested a cell sizes below 16340. The pulses continue until the cell measures 4.21V OC between pulses. Every single bay produces perfectly matched charge states (4.21V in all bays, every time). I believe that all of the charging circuits are probably sharing a common reference for determining termination point.
 Charging slots that share a common charging circuit across a pair of slots (like 3+4) can still initiate charging and terminate charging independently of each-other. Upon the termination of the charge in one of the bays, the cell that is still being charged then gets the full attention of the charging circuit, doubling the duty cycle to the remaining cell. Inserting a cell into a shared bay next to a cell whose charge has completed works fine as well.
 I have observed complete termination. Charging voltage does not exceed 4.25V during charge, final state of charge is spot on and consistent from bay to bay, and cells that are left in the charger after termination are not trickle "floated" as is common in so many other chargers.
 
*Safety/Information/Warnings WP6 II*:



 Open circuit voltage: ~2.5V (good!)
 Claimed compatibility with 10440 and 15270 size cells is only true if you are dealing with IMR chemistry cells and are willing to push them hard. I would not suggest charging ICR cells this small in this charger. 16340 is the smallest I would go personally.
 Proper termination and charge voltages that are within the bounds of all serious safety considerations.
 The charger can be tricked into prematurely terminating the charge on all charging bays if certain conditions are met... If any charging cell is removed from the charger, any remaining bays that are charging seem to have about a 50% chance of terminating for no good reason. I have also found a trick that results in a premature termination nearly 100% of the time. The trick to this one is to install a cell that needs to be charged into a bay that shares a charging circuit with an already terminated charge (cell still in place)... After the charge initiates on the newly installed cell, remove it, any other bays that were charging, will terminate prematurely. Pretty silly eh? This behavior is more a nuisance than anything. At first, it will drive you nuts until you figure out what conditions are being met to cause the "failure." Once you know, then you know how to deal with it and when to expect it.
 The previous generation charger would not initiate a charge on a cell above ~4.10V. This charger *will* initiate a charge on any cell below 4.21V that is inserted. I prefer the previous generations handling of cells ~90% SOC and higher.
I am not sure if this charger will re-initiate a charge if a cell settles down low enough or not.
 

*Other Comments WP6 II:*



 I'm guessing the reason for the ~8mm length spacers is to better accommodate some of those weird cell lengths like the 15270 and 10440. I would have prefered 6x 15mm spacers as they would provide better utility value for most flashlight enthusiasts.
Charge rate with all bays loaded is not likely to be much better than previous generation charger.
Charge rate with up to 3 cells loaded in the right places is likely to be quite a bit faster than previous generation charger, but still not as fast as a Pila IBC that maintains 600mA all the way to 4.20V charging voltage.
New raised positive IBC-copycat style threaded contacts and spacers are a vast improvement over previous design. Sorry- IBC spacers don't quite fit (same thread, but outside diameter of IBC spacers is too large to line up)
Manufacture failed to list 17500 and 18500 size cells, those should work fine too.
Not a bad charger all around. Can be added to the very short list of chargers that I would give a passing grade for safety.
 
-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------


*Charge Speed Test:*



 Test cells: AW 18500 protected. ~1 year old, a few cycles on them. All from same batch in good condition.
 Each test is performed from a starting and RESTING voltage of 3.70V.
 Charge time is until the charger indicates a "finished" charge with whatever method it uses to convey this information (usually a red LED turning green).
 
Cytac CY-015: [email protected]*323* minutes
1st Gen WF139: [email protected]*224* minutes
Cytac Digital 2x18650: [email protected]*146* minutes
Pila IBC: [email protected]*123* minutes
YOHO-122: [email protected]*115* minutes

*
-----
* -Eric


----------



## FurrBear

This is a great idea; I don't have any Li-Ion cells yet, but I'm thinking about it - so having a good reference for chargers will be valuable!


----------



## Black Rose

Thanks for doing this Eric.

It's something that's really needed.

*Subscribed*


----------



## cernobila

Excellent........

From all I read here, there is no perfect charger, each model has at least one deficiency. I would really like to see those in the know here create "specifications" for the ideal Li-Ion charger, which will have a "+" against all characteristics that we look for. Get this contracted to a competent company and cal it ....say...."CPF" Li-Ion charger. Aim at two models (CPFa and CPFb) both having three charging bays, (I don't like charging two and then one for a three cell light) one for up to 18650 size and the other for the C and D size cells. I would be more than happy to prepay for a number of these.......

......oh, sorry, just woke up......a nice dream for a change......but you never know


----------



## rmteo

*CPF Li-Ion charger*

A full featured 500mA Li-Ion can be constructed from a single IC (less than $1) and a handful of passive external components:




All it would need is a 5.0V DC supply (actually anything from 3.75V to 6.0V DC will work). It will charge RCR123's (1.5 hours charge time) and 18650's (about 5.5 hours charge time). Any number of _*independent channels*_ can be had by duplicating the above circuit. A 4-channel charger for RCR123's (16340) can be implemented on a 3 x 2.5in PCB. The biggest issue is the battery holder. For RCR123's this is available for $0.78:




For the larger 18650, I have not been able to locate a commercially available holder. If there is sufficient interest, I will start another thread to pursue this *"CPF Li-Ion Charger"* project.


----------



## vali

This lack of accesible chargers is one of the reasons I dont like to use or recommend lithium flashlights/cells. What I would like to see is something like BC-900 or C9000 but for lithium instead of NiMH or NiCad. Am I dreaming?


----------



## Chrontius

*Re: CPF Li-Ion charger*



rmteo said:


> A full featured 500mA Li-Ion can be constructed from a single IC (less than $1) and a handful of passive external components:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All it would need is a 5.0V DC supply (actually anything from 3.75V to 6.0V DC will work). It will charge RCR123's (1.5 hours charge time) and 18650's (about 5.5 hours charge time). Any number of _*independent channels*_ can be had by duplicating the above circuit. A 4-channel charger for RCR123's (16340) can be implemented on a 3 x 2.5in PCB. The biggest issue is the battery holder. For RCR123's this is available for $0.78:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the larger 18650, I have not been able to locate a commercially available holder. If there is sufficient interest, I will start another thread to pursue this *"CPF Li-Ion Charger"* project.



Can you cut the holder in half, and just screw them into the board? Maybe put the far one on a spring-loaded slider?

Failing that, does this do CC/CV charging and complete charge termination?

I'm thinking of putting together one on a breadboard in a Radio Shack project box.


----------



## rmteo

It may be possible to cut the holder in half but I think it may be really tight to fit a 18650. The IC is designed specifically for charging Li-Ion cells.


> The MCP73831/2 employ a _*constant-current/constant-voltage*_
> charge algorithm with selectable preconditioning
> and charge termination. The constant voltage
> regulation is fixed with four available options: 4.20V,
> 4.35V, 4.40V or 4.50V, to accommodate new, emerging
> battery charging requirements. The MCP73831/2
> devices limit the charge current based on die temperature
> during high power or high ambient conditions.
> This thermal regulation optimizes the charge cycle time
> while maintaining device reliability.
> Several options are available for the preconditioning
> threshold, preconditioning current value, charge
> termination value and automatic recharge threshold.
> The preconditioning value and charge termination
> value are set as a ratio, or percentage, of the
> programmed constant current value.


----------



## Chrontius

http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/MICROCHIP/383-1160.PDF

Page six has a table listing supply leakage current of up to 0.35 mA, dependent on supply voltage to the chip. Is this enough trickle current to worry about overcharging until things blow up?


----------



## Benson

*Re: CPF Li-Ion charger*



rmteo said:


> The biggest issue is the battery holder. For RCR123's this is available for $0.78:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the larger 18650, I have not been able to locate a commercially available holder.


For 18650s, you can get any of several 2-slot 18650 chargers for ~$5 at DX, and use the housing _and_ contacts; for less than $10, you can get the TR-001 in your choice of white or black; it's WF-139-like, but the sliders go all the way down for 16340s, and there's no side contacts.

While buying a charger and tossing the guts probably isn't ideal for building a batch of chargers for sale, it seems like a real good option for anyone making their own...


----------



## rmteo

Benson, that is exactly what I did for 18650's. I got one of the cheap ($6) DSD chargers from DX and gutted it to use the housing for 2x 18650.

Chrontius, the figure you quoted should be 0.35*u*A (micro-Amps) max at 80C. Also that number refers to the Output Leakage Current (Idischarge), ie. the current flowing from the battery into the IC if left connected.

In any event, it is not my intent to hijack mdocod's thread and will start another one to discuss this DIY charger further.

mdocod, do you have any info on the highly recommended PILA charger?


----------



## LIGHTSMAD

more excellent work from mdocod


----------



## rmteo

LIGHTSMAD said:


> more excellent work from mdocod



+1. 

BTW, I see that you will have info on the PILA charger soon, thanks.


----------



## Mjolnir

Does the DSD do the 2rd "topping stage," or does it just bring the batteries to 4.2 volts and leave them there without full capacity?


----------



## mdocod

Mjolnir said:


> Does the DSD do the 2rd "topping stage," or does it just bring the batteries to 4.2 volts and leave them there without full capacity?



I need to do a little more testing to make absolute certain, but every test I have run to date suggests that it maintains a constant current charge rate, goes to ~4.25V at that rate, then terminates the charge. Since the charge rate with the included power supply is so slow, it results in cells coming off plenty full... One trick to keep in mind though, is that the higher current the power supply, and/or the lower capacity the cells being charged, the less "full" the DSD will get the cell/s using this charging method. 

-Eric


----------



## DHart

Cool stuff; thanks mdocod. 

Wouldn't it be great to someday have Li-Ion chargers featured similarly to the C9000/BC-900?

I think Li-Ion is still in it's infancy, but will become increasingly common and even more robust over time. Someday we'll be driving Li-Ion powered cars, no doubt. A few exist today!


----------



## Mjolnir

So then a higher current power supply (like the nokia one) would result in a less full charge, wouldn't it, since the ending amperage is farther from zero? 

I am starting to lean towards getting a Pila IBC charger. It seems like it charges more "correctly," and I would rather not take risks when it comes to Lithium ion batteries, especially if/when I start using the multitude of unprotected laptop cells I have (that is, if the L-mini II ever comes out...).



DHart said:


> I think Li-Ion is still in it's infancy, but will become increasingly common and even more robust over time. Someday we'll be driving Li-Ion powered cars, no doubt. A few exist today!


Apparently, the tesla roadster is powered by 6,831 18650's. It takes hours to recharge though, so its range is pretty limited by its capacity (unless you want to wait at a gas/electricity station for 4 hours to "fill it up" again).


----------



## wquiles

Very nice thread Eric - thanks 

Will


----------



## harddrive

Great stuff Eric. I'm sure this will become a great resource like many of your other threads you have started :thumbsup:

I think it would be great if we could find the best and safest "Cheap" charger. By cheap I mean under $15. I use a Pila but for many it is just more than what they are prepared to pay. I am a LEO and enjoy helping my work mates get set up with decent lights but for most of them price is a big factor. 

The sku 6105 from DX has had a couple of good reports on CPF. I'd love to see it included in this roundup. If you are prepared to do the testing I'll happily transfer you the $8 so you can buy one to test out.


----------



## seaside

It is bit odd to ask this, but I can't help.

Regarding Ultrafire WF-139, mine is old version that mdocod is talking about. 

However, it seems like there're another version of this charger exist.

Some people said this new version WF-139 actually has the same circuit that is used in Trustfire TR-001. (sku 4151)

Not sure if this new version can take protected 16350 without spacer, but it seems.

If you take a look at this DX forum thread.

http://www.dealextreme.com/forums/Default.dx/sku.4151~threadid.307352

You can see the pic of TR-001 circuit, and at the end, a person claimed his WF-139 circuit is the same as that.

So, someone can check and verify if yours is this version?


----------



## Black Rose

I received what some consider to be the 3rd revision of the WF-139 (has a License No. printed on the back label - see SKU 21972 at DX for label pic), but had to RMA it back to 4Sevens due to a faulty left channel.

I used a spacer to charge a 16340 in the right channel, but now I wonder if I had to. I'll check it again when I get the charger back.

EDIT: There is a post in the WF-139 thread at DX where someone said the circuitry of the latest WF-139 is similar to the TR-001.


----------



## jayb79

I have been using this charger from dx. 
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.6672

It gets used once daily to swap out one rechargable 123 from my edc and it has been working great. Seems to be more reliable than the nano for about the same money.

I am thinking of getting this one for 18650s and AA li-ons:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.3499
It would need a spacer for the AA.

I like this type of charger because it only requires one hand to swap out the cell. The charger is held in place by the outlet.


----------



## mdocod

SoShine SC-S1 added....

I'm not impressed...


----------



## Black Rose

That UL label was a nice touch...not!!!

Good call on contacting UL.


----------



## old4570

I have a Tr001 on the way , and the new UF 139 .

When it arrives ill take a look . 

Matt

PS/ I have the DSD Charger , and I think the problem is it gets seriously hot charging 2 batteries [ 240v over here ] .. I cut some cooling slots into the power supply , but it runs much cooler just charging one battery at a time . That goes for all the chargers in fact , they run much cooler charging single cells .
In anyway , I have a trustfire TR001 on the way , and hope to do a mod that addresses the heat issue dx/sku.4151

There are two = dx/sku.4151 and sku.12594


Here is a new one I havent seen yet = http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5965
Another = http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=2717


----------



## Black Rose

I had a new design WF-139 for a few days.

Had to RMA it back to 4sevens. The left charging channel was faulty.

Gotta and see if they received it yet.


----------



## rizky_p

Nice guide Eric keep them coming. 

All of my 3 DSD chargers are bad, they either dead after several uses or just DOA. I dont trust it to charge my batteries anyway . while my WF139 charger fares better in comparison( i might be lucky), i am still using it now to charge 18650. DSD charger is useless IMO but the charging cradle is usefull. now i am using a Hobby Charger connected to DSD Charging cradle to charge 18650 or RCR123.


----------



## greenLED

Excellent thread, Eric! :twothumbs


----------



## mdocod

rizky_p said:


> Nice guide Eric keep them coming.
> 
> All of my 3 DSD chargers are bad, they either dead after several uses or just DOA. I dont trust it to charge my batteries anyway . while my WF139 charger fares better in comparison( i might be lucky), i am still using it now to charge 18650. DSD charger is useless IMO but the charging cradle is usefull. now i am using a Hobby Charger connected to DSD Charging cradle to charge 18650 or RCR123.



I assume you're probably on 220V electrical over there, which is probably the reason for the repeated demise of the DSDs. A common problem unfortunately. Usually it's not the cradle, but the wall-wort DC power supply that goes haywire.


----------



## 325addict

I have a DSD charger myself, and managed to squeeze out 2280mAh out of a Trustfire blue 2500mAh 18650.
Just put in 2 of them, and waited endlessly until they were finally charged :thinking:
This charger sees regular use, I charge anything from RCR123 to 18650 in it.

Yes, 230V here, and the adapter still is alive and kickin' !

Indeed, we should ask a GOOD manufacturer to design a CPF-charger!

Design-parameters:

1. proper CC/CV charging method,
2. selectable capacity, "3%-of-rated-capacity" switch-off,
3. EXACTLY 4.200V output,
4. protection circuitry: above 4.25V total shutdown!
5. reverse polarity protection!!
6. no charging possible under about 2.5V
7. reset-button, (or START-button, however you may call it)
8. LEDs for: 1. CC 2. CV 3. ready 4. "<2.5V" 5. service (protection active)
9. an ordinary TRANSFORMER in it!! NO SMPS, these always go 
10. indepently functioning, 3-bay, that will take all between RCR123 and 18650.

And yes, indeed, that's quite exactly what I just designed... and the best is: it actually WORKS!
That IC mentioned earlier in this thread is no good either: if it gets too hot, it regulates back current... this is a major design-flaw! The case of the IC should have been designed to take a HEATSINK!!

The only drawback of my design is its complexity and the price. It's a PCB crammed full of parts, measuring 100X65mm, containing numerous expensive parts... and that's for ONE channel :mecry:


Timmo.


----------



## rmteo

Well, you've learned one thing. Designing a gizmo is easy. Making it a commercially viable product is the hard part. :wave:


----------



## 325addict

from the start, this one wasn't meant to be commercially available.... I'm the only user of it, maybe one of my colleagues will build a few too... but that's about it 

Timmo.


----------



## FurrBear

325addict said:


> Indeed, we should ask a GOOD manufacturer to design a CPF-charger!


Such a charger could be an excellent accessory for the upcoming line of lights from 4Sevens...! *grin*


----------



## rizky_p

mdocod said:


> I assume you're probably on 220V electrical over there, which is probably the reason for the repeated demise of the DSDs. A common problem unfortunately. Usually it's not the cradle, but the wall-wort DC power supply that goes haywire.



yes 220v here, some type of Nokia charger works nicely with this one though -as stated. too bad my trust on this charges had slipped away :shakehead dont want to risk anything with lithium imo. 
WF-139 is my workhorse for charging 18650 when i am traveling since hobby charger is just to bulky with its 30A external power supply.


----------



## donn_

Fascinating thread subject, but as a small point of order;



> *Important factoids:*


Contrary to popular belief and common usage, a "factoid" is not a small fact, but rather is a piece of information which is presented as fact, but is not.


----------



## mdocod

donn_ said:


> Fascinating thread subject, but as a small point of order;
> 
> Contrary to popular belief and common usage, a "factoid" is not a small fact, but rather is a piece of information which is presented as fact, but is not.



Fun to learn that I have built in protection from errors and didn't even know it


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

donn_ said:


> Fascinating thread subject, but as a small point of order;
> 
> Contrary to popular belief and common usage, a "factoid" is not a small fact, but rather is a piece of information which is presented as fact, but is not.


+1!

Good catch!


----------



## Toaster

In case anyone is looking for more info on which Nokia power supplies to use with DSD chargers, AW posted some info here. In short:

ACP-12X/ACP-12U (X for UK model, U for US model) - 5.7V 800mA. Faster charging for larger cells, but charge rate is too high for single RCR123s.
ACP-8X/ACP-8U (X for UK model, U for US model) - 5.3V 500mA. Appropriate for use with RCR123 cells and up, still faster than the stock power supply.


The DSD + ACP-8U combo works great as a dedicated single channel RCR123 charger. Takes around an hour to charge a RCR123.


----------



## supasizefries

Wow, some really great info here. Can't wait to go home and test out my WF-139 to see if it's the old one or not. I bought it probably 2-3 months ago. One thing I did notice was when I placed newly purchased AW 18650 cells in it, it would stop charging them after about 5-10 secs. At first I thought there was something wrong. I pulled out my DMM and found out the cells were at about 4.1-4.2 V. So I guess on mine, the algorithm worked or the protection on the AW cells stepped in and stopped charging. :shrug:


----------



## Grrash

*Re: CPF Li-Ion charger*



rmteo said:


> A full featured 500mA Li-Ion can be constructed from a single IC (less than $1) and a handful of passive external components:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All it would need is a 5.0V DC supply (actually anything from 3.75V to 6.0V DC will work). It will charge RCR123's (1.5 hours charge time) and 18650's (about 5.5 hours charge time). Any number of _*independent channels*_ can be had by duplicating the above circuit. A 4-channel charger for RCR123's (16340) can be implemented on a 3 x 2.5in PCB. The biggest issue is the battery holder. For RCR123's this is available for $0.78:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the larger 18650, I have not been able to locate a commercially available holder. If there is sufficient interest, I will start another thread to pursue this *"CPF Li-Ion Charger"* project.




Hmmm... what would you charge a guy to build a set of four of them? Or maybe assemble one and throw a bunch of parts in a box for me to figure out



. I can solder, but I'm no EE. I've been looking at the Pila, but the charger with the DC adapter is $81 to my door! It's not just the cost though, I was intending to (eventually) get a portable/flexible solar panel... it might be convenient to have these separated out into individual, discrete chargers. I'd also assume they could be fairly small and backpack-friendly. Would it do the excellent job the Pila is so highly recommended for? Would it be simple to convert them to a 12v input? 

I wonder if you couldn't solder the outputs to some N45 NdFeB magnets and slap them right on the 18650 cell itself? That way you could make the cradle out of just about anything, including aluminum, which is easy enough to machine and will also act as a heat-sink (properly protected from accidental electrical shorts of course). Feel free to flame away if that is a stupid idea... 

This is probably something for a PM, but I don't seem to have access to send one... (?)


----------



## rmteo

The chip comes in a tiny SOT-23-5 package that is about 3mm. with 5 pins so realistically you would need to lay out a printed circuit board to make it work. Unfortunately I do not have the time to put one together now.

I suggest you get a hobby charger that can charge LiIon, LiFePO4, NiMH and NiCD - much simpler solution and what I use. Here is one that can be shipped to your door for about $50:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=7028#

For CR123/16340 I use a cradle made up of individual holders that can charge up to 8 cells at a time.







For the larger 18650 (and A size NiMH) cells, I use the DX sku 936 charger - $7. Gut it and use it as a holder for 2 cells.


----------



## Black Rose

mdocod said:


> *The infamous DSD:*
> 
> 
> 
> *Safety information/warnings:*
> 
> Because this is a single channel charger, it is important to take into consideration any pair of cells to be installed together in the charger. Ideally, they should be at least roughly matched for voltage. Within a few tenths of a volt would be fine. *I would be concerned that if say- a large cell, like an 18650, that was nearly full, were inserted with a nearly dead RCR123, the effective charge current on the RCR123 could exceed maximum safe ratings by a substantial margin.*


Was just re-reading this and thought I'd mention that particular combination is not possible unless spacers were used with the 16340 cell in the 18650 charging bay.
The 16340 charging bays have an "east-west" orientation and the 18650 charging bays have a "north-south" orientation.


----------



## carbine15

You get his idea. Actually a nearly dead 18650 cell paired with a nearly full cell in this charger could overcharge the full cell with a nasty result. 
I've had good results with this single bay compact adjustable charger from DX. It's only got one spring loaded bay so I got two of them plugged in side by side. It plugs right into a 110 socket so no wall wart. The only real downside is its very slow charge rate ~200mA (which I like).


----------



## mdocod

Black Rose said:


> Was just re-reading this and thought I'd mention that particular combination is not possible unless spacers were used with the 16340 cell in the 18650 charging bay.
> The 16340 charging bays have an "east-west" orientation and the 18650 charging bays have a "north-south" orientation.



Most folks who have a collection of various li-ion cells and li-ion powered flashlights would very likely have 2 15mm charging spacers, which, stacked end-to-end would make this charging configuration very possible. 

-Eric


----------



## DHart

mdocod said:


> Most folks who have a collection of various li-ion cells and li-ion powered flashlights would very likely have 2 15mm charging spacers, which, stacked end-to-end would make this charging configuration very possible.
> 
> -Eric



Hopefully, most folks with a collection of various li-ion cells would be knowledgeable enough to know what they can and should not do with such cells... of course, there are always exceptions... and warnings can't be stated enough.


----------



## squirty

*Re: CPF Li-Ion charger*



rmteo said:


> A full featured 500mA Li-Ion can be constructed from a single IC (less than $1) and a handful of passive external components:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All it would need is a 5.0V DC supply (actually anything from 3.75V to 6.0V DC will work). It will charge RCR123's (1.5 hours charge time) and 18650's (about 5.5 hours charge time). Any number of _*independent channels*_ can be had by duplicating the above circuit. A 4-channel charger for RCR123's (16340) can be implemented on a 3 x 2.5in PCB. The biggest issue is the battery holder. For RCR123's this is available for $0.78:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the larger 18650, I have not been able to locate a commercially available holder. If there is sufficient interest, I will start another thread to pursue this *"CPF Li-Ion Charger"* project.


 



I would love to build this circuit, but I'm not sure what that diode value is with the two arrows?


----------



## Th232

*Re: CPF Li-Ion charger*



squirty said:


> I would love to build this circuit, but I'm not sure what that diode value is with the two arrows?



It's an LED.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: CPF Li-Ion charger*

Bumping for update:

Cytac chargers added.


----------



## mfm

mdocod said:


> None-Removable 120V wire/plug


Since this is the second time in approximately one week that I see the assumption on CPF that flat plugs are inherently 110/120V I felt that I must take and post this picture:







mdocod said:


> Li-Ion manufactures do recommend a CC/CV charge method. The importance of a termination without a trickle charge is often emphasized.The current ramp-down will trick most novice testers into thinking that it is a CC/CV, but it is not.


Even if it's a logarithmic current (LC!) charger, it's still better than CC up to 4.35 or what the other chargers do.

I have the version with the euro plug (XXC-model) and it has 4.20V open voltage and the light turns green at 4.17. For the price ($7.5) I can live with the fact that it will trickle charge very slowly up to 4.20 (tried it for one hour: 4.18 on the DMM that quickly rested down to 4.17 again).

Maybe some of the Huangao or Shekor chargers are better but for now the XXC is the best cheap charger I know. For probably close to $100 with shipping and customs charges to Europe, the Pila IBC just isn't happening.


mdocod said:


> As you may have noticed, this charger appears to share a common body with a trustfire TR-001 charger. Other sources have identified that the internal circuit is different from the trustfire.


It's different from an older TR-001, just as a new TR-001 would be if you ordered one from DX. Actually now when I check, is it even different from the old TR-001? I don't see any difference:

Older TR-001 (TR-001 2009.10.20):
http://kkk_6-66.users.photofile.ru/photo/kkk_6-66/96031730/113481981.jpg

Cytac CY-015 (TR-001 2009.11.01):
http://lazyhack.com/img/IMG_1075_small.jpg


----------



## Tohuwabohu

mdocod said:


> ...
> *Cytac 2x18650 charger *
> (no model number present, pictured on the left above)
> ...
> *Charging Method:*
> Buck regulated 4.25V circuit with no termination current. No CC/CV is present here. The unit does not actually run the full current up to the destination voltage followed by tapering off of current the way a normal CC/CV would work. The current tapers downward in a semi-logarithmic fashion through the charge and never truly terminates.
> 
> Some testing:
> _[resting cell voltage, charge current, charge voltage_]
> ~[3.70V, 870mA, 3.83V]
> ~[3.80V, 870mA, 3.90V]
> ~[3.90V, 800mA, 4.00V]
> ~[4.00V, 590mA, 4.08V]
> ~[4.10V, 390mA, 4.15V]
> ~[4.15V, 270mA, 4.18V]
> ...
> 
> *Other Comments:*
> Looks a lot like a SKU6105 from DX to me. All labeling and design is identical to the picts I see on DX. I disassembled the unit and found a circuit very similar to the circuit found in the SoShine SC-S2. See this thread: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/264411 for details about this circuit type posted by CPF member Tohuwabohu. He has managed to identify the important sense resistors that set the target voltage in that one. Someone like him could probably do the same for this charger. Because the charger never terminates, if I were going to mod a sense resistor to reduce the goal voltage, I would probably shoot for 4.15V or less so that the trickle charging effect would not result in undesirable cell wear-and-tear...



That Cytac looks like the _Digital Li-Ion 18650 Battery Charger_ sold by DX, KD and others.
You can find a lot of usefull information about this and some other cradle type chargers on this Japanese page (Google translation).

The circuit is very different from the Soshine SC-S2. You would have to change a resistor at the TL431 shunt regulator near the optocoupler to adjust the voltage.

There are many slightly different versions of this charger with different PCB layouts what makes it difficult to say what resistor has to be replaced.
You can find some photos of different versions of this charger in this thread in the German Messerforum.net. You will never know what vesion you will get if you order from DX.

The switching power supply carrying mains voltage is part of the charging electronics. I can't recommend to open the charger and modify the circuit for safety reasons.

The charging method is a sort of CC/CV but the output resistance of the charger is so high that the CC stage already ends when the battery voltage reaches ~3.8V.
From that point on the voltage at the battery terminals slowly increases as the current slowly drops and the voltage drop across the output resistance gets smaller.
A very rough calculation form your numbers: (4.15V-3.9V)/(800mA-270mA) = 0.25V/0.53A ~ 0.5 Ohm output resistance. 
From my current vs. voltage graph for the HXY charger in the Soshine SC-S2 thread you can calculate approximately the same output resistance.
The 0.1 Ohm current sense resistor is only a small part of the output resistance. The main part seems to be the transistor near the positve battery terminal (part of the short circuit protection?)


*Cytac CY-015*
Judging from the photos in post #27 of the Cytac vs AW139 Charger thread the Cytac CY-015 has a very similar curcuit if you ignore the additional 12V DC input and the electronics belonging to it.
I had one of the probably faked Ultrafire WF-139 chargers (_3rd revision has ~4.3V open circuit, lights red while charging_ according to this post) and the PCB was almost identical to that of the Cytac CY-015.
I recycled it because of its painfully slow charging.

This charger is even slower than the HXY or the other Cytac because of the additional resistance of the long springs. I measured ~0.45 Ohm for each spring of my WF-139.
A total output resistance of approximately 1 Ohm will result in a very slow charging. I would expect ~10 hours for a completely discharged 2400mAh 18650.


----------



## mdocod

mfm said:


> Since this is the second time in approximately one week that I see the assumption on CPF that flat plugs are inherently 110/120V I felt that I must take and post this picture:



Hi mfm,

I had intended to include an input voltage range in the list of "factoids" for each charger and it slipped my mind. I'm still in the proccess of testing and editing the results for those chargers at this time. I'll edit that in now. 

The back of pretty much all of my American style blade-plug electronics in my house actually say something like [100-240V, 50/60hz] on the back of them. I realize that it can operate on a wider voltage. When a device comes with a plug that fits a 110/120V outlet, and requires an adapter to fit in a hole somewhere else in the world to operate on 240V, then it's a 110/120V device until further notice in my book. 

Perhaps I am mistaken though, are there countries that use the "American" blade-style plugs for 240V operation?

Also, in an effort to keep what is already a very long and cumbersome post down to a more reasonable size, I "assumed" I could "sum up" "American Blade Style 2-pole male plug" with "120V plug." 

Fair enough?



> Even if it's a logarithmic current (LC!) charger, it's still better than CC up to 4.35 or what the other chargers do.
> 
> I have the version with the euro plug (XXC-model) and it has 4.20V open voltage and the light turns green at 4.17. For the price ($7.5) I can live with the fact that it will trickle charge very slowly up to 4.20 (tried it for one hour: 4.18 on the DMM that quickly rested down to 4.17 again).



Actually, endless trickle charging to hold ~4.20V or higher, especially on cells with some age on them, is IMO more dangerous than a CC only charger that runs charging voltages to ~4.30V (+/-0.05V depending on cell resistance) followed by true termination. 


Eric


----------



## mfm

mdocod said:


> Perhaps I am mistaken though, are there countries that use the "American" blade-style plugs for 240V operation?


That was the point with the picture that was showing a 220V-only AC adapter with "American" flat plugs. It wasn't a very important point to make though.

I use that AC adapter (but with flat-to-round converter) with 230V, they use American/Japanese flat plugs with 230V in Bolivia, some parts of Brazil, Philippines and Thailand.


----------



## mdocod

Tohuwabohu said:


> That Cytac looks like the _Digital Li-Ion 18650 Battery Charger_ sold by DX, KD and others.
> You can find a lot of usefull information about this and some other cradle type chargers on this Japanese page (Google translation).



Hi Tohuwabohu,

Thank you for this very insightful and information packed response.

And yes, this does look like the 6105 from DX.

That link is awesome. The graphs there confirm pretty much all of my non-graphed findings. *Gotta love that WF-139 that took a cell to 4.5V. *



> The circuit is very different from the Soshine SC-S2. You would have to change a resistor at the TL431 shunt regulator near the optocoupler to adjust the voltage.



While the layout of parts and the specific components chosen to build the circuit may appear very different, having read your description of how the SC-S2 works, and having tested this unit and found a behavior that is dramatically similar, one must conclude that the sum of the parts in each charger produces roughly the same charging behavior and associated idiosyncrasies. There seems to be a growing number of chargers out there that have a similar charging behavior. Achieving this very particular behavior would require that they are all using a circuit type that is within a similar "family grouping" of charger styles.



> There are many slightly different versions of this charger with different PCB layouts what makes it difficult to say what resistor has to be replaced.
> You can find some photos of different versions of this charger in this thread in the German Messerforum.net. You will never know what vesion you will get if you order from DX.



Very interesting! Man, some of these links you've got here are great, wish I could read other languages! Translation and the many graphs and such are very helpful though. 

The point you make about there being so many versions of this charger, is a point that can be made for MANY li-ion chargers out there. How many revisions of the 139 are there now? 4? 5? The TR-001? 2? 3? 17?, the DSD? 2?, the 138? 

The point to be made here, is that even with testing done by a few users, there is absolutely no way to guarantee to anyone that they are going to get the same charger as what someone else got, or what has been tested by a guru and posted on the net somewhere. The market of cradle chargers is a massive crap shoot that leaves much to be desired IMO.

Every purchase of one of these digitalXfireshinetac chargers is a roll of the dice. 



> The switching power supply carrying mains voltage is part of the charging electronics. I can't recommend to open the charger and modify the circuit for safety reasons.



Not my first time tearing into a device likely to have caps sitting at ~120V even though it's not plugged in. 



> The charging method is a sort of CC/CV but the output resistance of the charger is so high that the CC stage already ends when the battery voltage reaches ~3.8V.
> From that point on the voltage at the battery terminals slowly increases as the current slowly drops and the voltage drop across the output resistance gets smaller.
> A very rough calculation form your numbers: (4.15V-3.9V)/(800mA-270mA) = 0.25V/0.53A ~ 0.5 Ohm output resistance.
> From my current vs. voltage graph for the HXY charger in the Soshine SC-S2 thread you can calculate approximately the same output resistance.
> The 0.1 Ohm current sense resistor is only a small part of the output resistance. The main part seems to be the transistor near the positve battery terminal (part of the short circuit protection?)



So it's kind of like having a 300HP engine stuck behind a transmission that eats up 120HP when traveling at 75MPH. 

While it may be a "CC/CV" behind a few layers of operation, the actual operation at the terminals lacks the CC/CV behavior that is sought after. The lack of a current based termination is also a huge bummer!

*Great stuff! If you have anything else to share regarding these chargers please do!*

Eric


----------



## Tohuwabohu

mdocod said:


> *Gotta love that WF-139 that took a cell to 4.5V. *


The 4.5V were measured during the charging pulses at the charger terminals. In the short breaks between the pulses the battery voltage was at 4.2V.
Not the recommended charging method but quite fast at moderate charging currents because there is no time consuming CV stage.



mdocod said:


> Not my first time tearing into a device likely to have caps sitting at ~120V even though it's not plugged in.


230V AC here. Thats more than 300V DC after the rectifier .


I think I can add some information about the Pila IBC: my German review (Google translation) and some photos of a disassembeld Pila:

Top side of the PCB:





Bottom side:





Charger IC





You can downlad a datasheet of the charger IC on this micro-bridge webpage.

As shown in my review and in the Soshine SC-S2 thread the Pila IBA has a negative output resistance. I opened the charger because I wanted to know how this is achieved.
The answer is on page 8 of the datasheet:


----------



## Chrontius

*Re: CPF Li-Ion charger*

I'm about ready to build me a few of these. Anybody know where to find some cheap voltmeters and ammeters, plus the rest of the parts?

Also, does the LED light during charging, or once the charge is complete? If it lights upon completion, it could trigger a relay to mechanically open the circuit for charge termination. I think a permanent high-school style ammeter and voltmeter (analog gauges, natch) with the rest of it all done with point-to-point hand-wiring would make a *really* robust, glanceable, and safe (assuming the chip is inherently good) design.



rmteo said:


> A full featured 500mA Li-Ion can be constructed from a single IC (less than $1) and a handful of passive external components:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All it would need is a 5.0V DC supply (actually anything from 3.75V to 6.0V DC will work). It will charge RCR123's (1.5 hours charge time) and 18650's (about 5.5 hours charge time). Any number of _*independent channels*_ can be had by duplicating the above circuit. A 4-channel charger for RCR123's (16340) can be implemented on a 3 x 2.5in PCB. The biggest issue is the battery holder. For RCR123's this is available for $0.78:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the larger 18650, I have not been able to locate a commercially available holder. If there is sufficient interest, I will start another thread to pursue this *"CPF Li-Ion Charger"* project.


----------



## 45/70

mfm said:


> Maybe some of the Huangao or Shekor chargers are better but for now the XXC is the best cheap charger I know. For probably close to $100 with shipping and customs charges to Europe, the Pila IBC just isn't happening.




Hey mfm, I understand the dilemma involved with trying to obtain a Pila in some countries. I'm sympathetic to the idea of trying to find a suitable charger that works, without having to spend so much $$.

The cost of the Pila, even here in the US (~$40), is why I've never owned one! In my earlier days of Flashaholisim (~2005), I was fortunate enough to have bought a YOHO-122. While it doesn't have as good an algorithm as a Pila, it comes close and has always worked well. I still use it sometimes, however I mostly use a hobby charger, anymore.

The problem I have with most of the chargers that are out there now, is that most of them do not conform to the charging requirements set by the cell manufacturer's. Many folks here on the forum try these chargers out and report that they work fine. In fact most CPF members more than likely are using a charger that is using an improper algorithm. Will they work to charge cells? Yes. Are they safe? Maybe, maybe not. Do they conform to the charging recommendations of the manufacturers of Li-Ion cells? No.

I don't really understand, as others here on the Forum have said, why the manufacturers of these chargers don't just make one that uses a proper algorithm. The YOHO-122 for example came quite close, and is considered acceptable, and it's original price was something like $13, so it is possible.

On the other hand when you read people's comments about how the inferior chargers circulating about nowadays seem to work just fine and are acceptable, where is the incentive for these manufacturers to improve on them? As long as folks keep buying "BlastFire" Li-Ion chargers and are content enough with them to give them good reviews, I seriously doubt we will see any improvement. In my opinion, users of Li-Ion cells need to resist complacency, and aggressively point out the faults of these chargers, so that people don't buy them, until the manufacturers correct the faults and provide an economical proper charger.



> ......I can live with the fact that it will trickle charge very slowly up to 4.20 (tried it for one hour: 4.18 on the DMM that quickly rested down to 4.17 again)......


Just a reminder that we are not talking about nickel based cell chemistry here.  _Any_ kind of trickle charging of Li-Ion cells is a safety risk. From BU,



> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"No trickle charge is applied because lithium-ion is unable to absorb overcharge. A continuous trickle charge above 4.05V/cell would causes plating of metallic lithium that could lead to instabilities and compromise safety."[/FONT]


There is more than one form of trickle charging associated with many of the various chargers that use an improper algorithm, but all forms should be avoided. As I stated in another thread, the plating of [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]metallic lithium is a cumulative process. You don't necessarily run into disastrous results the first time it happens, but rather somewhere down the road. Once a cell becomes unstable, it potentially can "vent with flame" at any time, not just when being charged.

Just trying to make a few points and perhaps, raise the awareness level. 

Dave
[/FONT]


----------



## mdocod

Hi Tohuwabohu,

I guess they must have been using an unprotected cell to do those tests. Perhaps one of relatively high resistance? Reason I say this, is when I ran similar tests (DMM attached to the charging posts during charging), charge voltages did not exceed 4.28V on large 18650 cells. The differencial between charging voltage and cell "resting" voltage is smaller with lower resistance cells. 

In my experience, charging voltages in excess of ~4.35V will trip PCBs and terminate a charge. I honestly had always wondered if there was an upper end limit to charging voltage on a 139. I now know that the upper end limit is at least 4.5V, which bothers me. 

----

That information about the Pila and it's Rpack compensation explains a lot. 

I have tested the IBC's 600mA CC/CV 50mA termination vs the "1A" claimed charging rate of this 2x18650 cytac/6105/digital. The Pila actually charges cells faster. 

--------------------------

Hi Dave!

X2!

Funny, I was just chatting with someone in PMs and had myself a very similar "rant." I've edited out the parts that pertain to our personal conversation going on there and quoted myself below. I meant every word of it and now look back and realize it needs to be said publicly. 



myself said:


> I have a hard time recommending a WF139 regardless because as of this point, there are at least 3, maybe 4 or 5 versions floating around out there. I know for a fact that one or more of those versions will trickle charge resulting in dangerous over-charge, one or more of those versions will miss termination when near-full cells are loaded, which can lead to dangerous over-charge, especially in unprotected cells, and all of the versions are likely to exceed 4.25V charging voltage on smaller capacity cells. maybe one of the versions out there is safer and more reasonable, but until they give it it's own model name and number, there is no way to know what anyone is actually getting with the 139. It's a crap shoot. I mean, what are venders supposed to do? Advertise that they are selling the version of the 139 that doesn't suck as bad as the others?........
> 
> ......I feel the need to spread awareness about the safety problems surrounding many of these chargers. At the ground level, the consumer needs to be educated so they can make trading decisions that are good for them in the long run. I would like to see USA based resellers of these products take an active role in educating consumers about the types of charging products available and why many of them are unsafe. I would really like to see those resellers use their buying power to start influencing their "sources" into producing a product that the reseller can stand behind and defend and not feel that they have to hide behind.
> 
> With X-Fire brand cells showing up for a buck a piece at every corner of the internet, all being charged by second-rate chargers that compound the danger, I fear that within the next few years a national news story will be breaking on one of the major new networks about a fire or a poisoning or something related to these products. The slant will of course be that we need to be regulated and controlled and taxed by a newly formed government agency. I don't want that, and I'm sure that nobody else participating in this market wants to deal with the inflated costs that would come with that. The reality is, if consumers in this market won't take the time to learn and make proper buying decisions, then it won't be long and someone else will be making the decision for them.
> 
> Sad state of affairs eh?



Funny coincidence eh?

And yes, there seems to be a MASSIVE amount of misinformation being spread by users who perform one quick test with a DMM (cell voltage after charge) and then post their review on DX that the charger is a gem.

---

Yea, the YOHO-122 was an absolutely amazing charger for the price. It sits right next to my IBC and I use it pretty much just as often.

Thank you for pointing out those links and the dangers of this charging method more clearly. 

---

Do you think the recent activity this has sparked will generate any results?

Eric


----------



## mfm

45/70 said:


> I was fortunate enough to have bought a YOHO-122.


Do you have any links to any real testing of this charger? I read the 4 page thread which was mostly guesses and wishes, some reported too high voltages, and the "proof" that it doesn't trickle charge isn't valid, my XXC charger will pass that test as well (it trickle charges and still the cell voltage will never be above 4.20).


45/70 said:


> I don't really understand, as others here on the Forum have said, why the manufacturers of these chargers don't just make one that uses a proper algorithm.


Because it's probably expensiver? "Logarithmic Current" charging is fine for most people, myself included, as long as the charge voltage doesn't rise above 4.20: it will take a bit longer but it's not harming the cell. 

Most people couldn't care less about the proper algorithm if those chargers cost much more and are just slightly faster.

Also, no western company is going to back a general Li-ion charger, the liability is just too much. And the customers of the current cheap charger manufacturers don't give a crap about proper algorithms (at least as long as it doesn't kill cells prematurely, like the CC-only and pulse current chargers), proper CE and UL listings etc...


45/70 said:


> Just a reminder that we are not talking about nickel based cell chemistry here.  _Any_ kind of trickle charging of Li-Ion cells is a safety risk. From BU,


It will still be in the final part of the CV phase for some hours after the LED turns green, going from 4.17 to 4.20 using a very low current, and I will have powered it off long before it reaches 4.20. That's why I said it was fine, not that an actual trickle charge is OK. And the charge voltage is 4.20 so it won't charge it higher than that.


mdocod said:


> I have tested the IBC's 600mA CC/CV 50mA termination vs the "1A" claimed charging rate of this 2x18650 cytac/6105/digital. The Pila actually charges cells faster.


Exactly how fast?


----------



## Chrontius

Is it just that CC/CV represents the maximum safe rate to charge at, or that logarithmic current is actively dangerous, even with proper 4.2+-0.05 volt termination?

And does anyone have a link to the Yoho 122 test thread? I have a vested interest in that. >_<


----------



## mdocod

Chrontius said:


> Is it just that CC/CV represents the maximum safe rate to charge at, or that logarithmic current is actively dangerous, even with proper 4.2+-0.05 volt termination?



There seems to be a misunderstanding going on here, let me try to clear this up.

In a proper li-ion charging algorithm, 3 things must happen:

1. Constant current until a select voltage is reached (most manufactures recommend 4.20V)
2. Constant voltage until,
3. Current drops to a specified level (most manufactures recommend anywhere from 50mA to 0.1C), at which point, the charging STOPS absolutely, TERMINATES, allowing the cell to sit and rest and have no current flowing in any direction. 


-----


A buck circuit configured for 4.20V that does not terminate the charge when the current drops down to a certain level, will sit there and continue flowing whatever current is required to hold the cell at 4.20V (or 4.26V in the case of one of the chargers I just tested). It is *NOT TERMINATING*. I can not stress this enough, just because the final voltage that the charger is achieving is within the recommended charge termination for li-ion cells, does not mean that it is a safe charging method. The lack of termination comes with risk factors. 

When li-ion cells are band new, they will charge to 4.20V and hold there naturally for days. The current required to hold them there would probably be a fraction of a mA. Brand new cells IMO pose absolutely no significant increased risk when used in this type of charger. To hold the same cell at 4.26V might only take a few mA. As cells age they naturally come to a resting point after being charged at a lower voltage. The amount of current required to hold them at 4.20V would be much higher. It is as cells age that the danger starts to ramp up logarithmically with this charging method. 

The healthy thing for the cell, is to have the charge terminate, so that the cell can "settle down" to the resting voltage that it can maintain naturally based on cell condition.

Eric


----------



## KiwiMark

mdocod said:


> *Charging method:*
> Constant Current @~250-350mA per channel (seems to vary) with V-test every ~1 second (pauses charging for a fraction of a second to take the reading) till 4.20V V-test is achieved.
> 
> *Safety Information/Warnings:*
> 
> The charging method used here is not recommended by any Li-Ion cell manufacture that I am aware of. On smaller cells charging voltage can reach and even exceed 4.35V. Small protected cells will often terminate the charge via PCB.


I have 2 of these chargers (WF-139) and they seem to work well - though the charge method is different from the standard one. It occurs to me that the charge should be quicker by not tapering off the current at the end and that the final charge state should be exactly the same as achieved by the standard CC/CV method. The only real difference would be that during the final stage of charging the voltage of the cell is higher while the charging current is flowing than the 4.2V which is recommended as a maximum voltage. But given that the time a cell spends above 4.2V is short - does anyone know what sort of damage that does to a cell? I'm thinking that it would not be much degradation (especially for cells that are not charged often, but would be more of a concern for cells topped up regularly).

I consider rechargeable batteries to be a consumable item that needs to be replaced every few years anyway, but I wouldn't want to cut down the useful life of a Li-ion cell from 4-5 years down to 2-3 years - that would be quite a large hit to the lifetime. If we are talking about cutting down an average lifespan of 4.5 years down to 4.4 years then I really couldn't care less. I am doubtful that the Li-ion year lifespan would be reduced by more than 10% and suspect it would be much less than 5%, maybe only a fraction of 1% - if this is the case I will happily use the WF-139 whenever I like.

I do have a couple of Turnigy hobby chargers that I can use most of the time - but there are times I want to recharge a bunch of different cells all at the same time, having 2 WF-139 chargers & 2 hobby chargers & 2 NiMH chargers means I can charge 8 NiMH cells and a bunch of Li-ion cells all at the same time. But I do wonder about how much or how little the WF-139 charger's 'unusual' charging method affects the life of the cells it charges.

My Turnigy chargers are much better for my 32600 Li-ion cells because I can charge at 2 or 3 amps and get them full in a quick time (and they use the CC/CV method). The 'cradle' chargers are a very convenient & easy way of charging up the 16340 & 18650 cells without worrying about settings - much better option for the average Joe.


----------



## mdocod

KiwiMark said:


> ... But given that the time a cell spends above 4.2V is short - does anyone know what sort of damage that does to a cell? I'm thinking that it would not be much degradation (especially for cells that are not charged often, but would be more of a concern for cells topped up regularly).



I suspect as you do, that it would depend on how frequently the user is topping off. 

Read response #17 in this thread:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/268431

The charger he is referring to there uses a relatively fast charge rate (~800mA IIRC) and a CC only charge algorithm that is actually terminated by the PCB. Resulting termination and resting voltages at the cell will usually measure ~4.15-4.23V with this type of charger depending on the internal resistance of the cells charged. But it's important to note, that this charge method when used with the cells it is intended for (18500, 17670, and 18650 size PROTECTED), is producing almost the exact same charge routine that a WF-139 will when charging a RCR123/14500 size cell. 

I don't think anyone has any way of knowing absolutely what difference in wear and tear this charge method makes. I'm inclined to say that as cells have become safer and more abuse tolerant in recent years, these CC only charge methods are reasonable provided that there is a true termination. 

The biggest problem with the WF-139 is not knowing what you're going to get or what you have unless you know how to run some tests. There is a version out there that will completely skip termination if a cell that is already mostly charged is installed. The ramp-down and termination algorithm starts around 4V. If the charger doesn't see ~4V at the cell through the charging process, it will never initiate the algorithm that results in termination. The original 139, (12V open circuit), will trickle charge endlessly after the light goes green, probably shooting for 12V. (PCBs will prevent it ever achieving this, but trickle charging from 4.20V up to 4.35V would be absolutely horrendous wear and tear for most cells). 



> I do have a couple of Turnigy hobby chargers that I can use most of the time - but there are times I want to recharge a bunch of different cells all at the same time, having 2 WF-139 chargers & 2 hobby chargers & 2 NiMH chargers means I can charge 8 NiMH cells and a bunch of Li-ion cells all at the same time. But I do wonder about how much or how little the WF-139 charger's 'unusual' charging method affects the life of the cells it charges.




Have you considered building cradles or gutting a few cheap li-ion cradle chargers so that you could use your turnigy chargers to charge more cells at once?

You can charge li-ion cells in parallel and they will balance out just fine. The important thing is that the cells are within say ~20% or so of each-others state of charge when put in a circuit together in parallel so that no extreme charge/discharge rates occur as the cells balance with each-other. Making an effort to match up cells that are of a similar capacity and internal resistance is also semi-important but not entirely necessary. Set charging rates depending on how many cells and what capacity are installed in the cradle. Shoot for ~0.5C charge rates. Use diligence when installing multiple cells insuring that none are installed backwards 

Eric


----------



## 45/70

mfm said:


> Do you have any links to any real testing of this charger? I read the 4 page thread which was mostly guesses and wishes, some reported too high voltages, and the "proof" that it doesn't trickle charge isn't valid, my XXC charger will pass that test as well (it trickle charges and still the cell voltage will never be above 4.20).



I think there is a review on the YOHO somewhere here, you may have to look back a few years. As I remember, the YOHO does trickle charge, but at a very low rate, similar to the HG-103W9V, so you really should pull the cell(s) when the LED turns green. That was one of the reasons it's algorithm wasn't considered as good as the Pila's. Discussion of the YOHO is moot anyway, as it has apparently been discontinued.

The Pila's algorithm isn't perfect either. One of the shortcomings is, that it terminates charge at a set 50mA during the CV stage. This generally falls close to the acceptable range of 0.03-0.1C (where "C" is the charge rate, not the capacity of the cell) for most cells, however. At least, it does terminate the charge.



> Because it's probably expensiver? "Logarithmic Current" charging is fine for most people, myself included, as long as the charge voltage doesn't rise above 4.20: it will take a bit longer but it's not harming the cell.
> 
> Most people couldn't care less about the proper algorithm if those chargers cost much more and are just slightly faster.


"Logarithmic Current" charging may be fine for most people, I guess, as long as they understand that it is _not recommended by the manufacturers_ who make the cells, and understand the possibility of damaging the cells, as well as the safety risks involved. Also a charger that maintains a cell at a certain voltage after charge completion, _is trickle charging_. A proper charge algorithm such as the Pila's, or a hobby charger, terminates the charge upon completion, as can be witnessed by a drop in the cell's voltage.



> It will still be in the final part of the CV phase for some hours after the LED turns green, going from 4.17 to 4.20 using a very low current, and I will have powered it off long before it reaches 4.20. That's why I said it was fine, not that an actual trickle charge is OK. And the charge voltage is 4.20 so it won't charge it higher than that.


There is too much emphasis on a charger not charging over the maximum voltage recommended. While this is certainly important, it's just as important, or in some cases more important, that a charger terminates the charge and doesn't trickle charge after the charge is complete. While a charger that maintains ~4.20 Volts after charge completion is probably less dangerous than one that keeps trickling to 4.35 Volts, in either case they are both trickle charging. This is a safety risk in addition to being bad for the cell, as pointed out in my last post. A proper CV stage, as recommended by the Li-Ion cell manufacturers, terminates the charge at 0.03C or above, thus eliminating the possibility of trickle charging.



mdocod said:


> Do you think the recent activity this has sparked will generate any results?



Eh, doubtful. :sigh:

Dave


----------



## bstrickler

Mjolnir said:


> Does the DSD do the 2rd "topping stage," or does it just bring the batteries to 4.2 volts and leave them there without full capacity?



My DSD stops mine at around 4.1-4.14 volts. Since most of my stuff is 500ma-1a draw, that extra 0.05-0.1 volts isn't gonna make a big difference to me.

The only thing I hate about my DSD, is that it charges at about 220 ma, not the 450 rated.

~Brian


----------



## mdocod

mfm said:


> Do you have any links to any real testing of this charger? I read the 4 page thread which was mostly guesses and wishes, some reported too high voltages, and the "proof" that it doesn't trickle charge isn't valid, my XXC charger will pass that test as well (it trickle charges and still the cell voltage will never be above 4.20).



Your pressure to generate results has done so  I'm glad you have forced the subject because we can now put 4 pages to rest as a waste of our time. 

I've just partially-completed a really thorough test of the YOHO-122. It holds 4.20V under trickle charging and lacks true CC/CV charge method just like many others. Previous testing that I conducted was not in-depth enough to un-cover the trickle behavior. It was literally tricking one of my DMMs. (the last time I tested it I was using a different DMM, I've since obtained a slightly better one) All of the positive thoughts I had about the YOHO-122 can now go out the window with the rest of this garbage. My results can be found in the first post of this thread. I have numerous personal statements made in favor of the 122 around the forum that I have just proven incorrect. I hate being wrong but I'm going to have to go around and do some damage control here. I was wrong about this charger. 

What I have really proved here again, is that the Pila IBC remains the only charger that is worth a handful of beans. 

From here on out, until a manufacture wants to compete with the Pila IBC and drive this price down for a competent charger, I'll be telling people to pony up $50 if they have any interest in running li-ion cells. I've said it before but didn't hold true enough to it: "li-ion chargers will be guilty until proven innocent."

A revised version of that statement will be as follows: "All Li-Ion chargers should be considered guilty until proven innocent, if the manufactures of these chargers would like me to treat them less like the IRS would and more like the US constitution would, then they are going to have to make some changes."

-----

OK, having said that, for healthy new cells, combined with a monitored charge and cell removal upon "solid green," the charger is really good in some ways. I'm going to have to keep this charger on hand for when I need to charge up a lot of cells quickly, like when a storm is headed our way and I want to be ready with plenty of reserve power for flashlights in case of a power outage. It's faster than any cradle charger I have tested. 

Eric


----------



## mdocod

mfm said:


> Exactly how fast?



I've just completed a charge speed test comparing 5 different chargers. The results are in the first post of this thread. 

I had previously done a couple quick tests using IMR16340s, but figured, I better do a test with larger cells from a good low state-of-charge (~20%) to make absolutely sure. 

The IBCs 600mA rate charged faster than the Cytac 2x18650 claimed 1A charging rate. And only came in a few minutes behind the speed of the YOHO-122 (also rated 1A). 

Both of these "1A" chargers never really spend any time at 1A, and they both taper down their charging rate through the charge long before the target voltage is reached. The continuous 600mA CC of the IBC is able to compete because it doesn't drop off until the target voltage is reached. 

Eric


----------



## 45/70

Interesting results with the YOHO-122, Eric.

I didn't realize that it didn't follow the CC/CV algorithm, at all! Still, it seems to do a pretty good job in that the cells come off at an exceptable voltage, and the trickle charge simmers down to such a low amperage that _if_ the cells are pulled off within a reasonable time after the indication of charge completion, the cells won't suffer too badly. Just the same, overall, the Pila is better with it's actual termination of charge and I agree, is the only proper cradle charger, which is the topic of this thread.

Nice work! :thumbsup:

From post #15 in this thread,



mdocod said:


> I expect to see a major western government crack-down on this market in the next few years. Big brother is looking for the next target at all times. All can be been avoided if consumers purchase with their brains rather than their shampoo.



This is my primary reason for commenting in these type threads. I'm selfish, and don't want others ignorance of the proper use and care of Li-Ion cells to ruin my hobby! I really couldn't care less whether people use a proper charger and burn their house down, or whatever! Me me me!  There, I said it. :naughty:

OK, just kidding (calm down TMG, if you read this), but there is a fair amount of truth in that statement. If folks (and cheapo charger manufacturers) aren't willing to better, or perhaps I should say completely understand and implement the proper care and feeding of Li-Ion cells, they _will_ become harder to obtain. Actually, this has already started to some extent, unfortunately. :sigh:

Dave


----------



## Black Rose

Thanks for the more in-depth test of the Yoho-122.

I always monitor the charge process and pull the cells as soon as the light turns green, but still it's frustrating to have to continue the quest.

Later this month I think I'm going to spend the money and get myself an Accucel-6 hobby charger (cheaper than importing an IBC @ $75 with shipping) and be done with it.

EDIT: Priced out, the Accucel-6, power adapter, and shipping are only $20 cheaper than an IBC.
Then there are the cradles and/or balance leads to figure out


----------



## 45/70

Good solution, Black. They are a bit more complicated to get going with the necessary cradles, hookups etc, but hobby chargers seem to work quite well. The only caveat I see with them, and it's a very minor one, is that most hobby chargers terminate the charge at 0.1C (of the charge rate) rather than 0.03C, so the cells may not come off as fully charged as with say, a Pila. The actual difference in capacity is of course minimal, and the cells will last a bit longer. 

Dave


----------



## mfm

45/70 said:


> "Logarithmic Current" charging may be fine for most people, I guess, as long as they understand that it is _not recommended by the manufacturers_ who make the cells, and understand the possibility of damaging the cells, as well as the safety risks involved.


What is the safety risk with logarithmic charging?



45/70 said:


> Good solution, Black. They are a bit more complicated to get going with the necessary cradles, hookups etc, but hobby chargers seem to work quite well.


I don't think hobby chargers are better for most people, quite the opposite:

The bad incidents with the cheap Li-ion chargers discussed here are limited to the primary transformer side going poof, sometimes with some smoke and some theoretical problems with [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]corrosion and plating of metallic lithium that noone has reported beeing a victim of.

That is in sharp contrast to people with hobby chargers who have burned down houses, cars, trucks, trailers, you name it. The fiddling with complex settings and various selfmade cradles is a much greating risk than the theoretical trickle charge that usually won't happen anyway.

This is from using a hobby charger:







BTW, got my new HG-1210W charger today, we'll see if it's any good...
[/FONT]


----------



## 45/70

mfm said:


> What is the safety risk with logarithmic charging?



As I pointed out already, a CV charge that doesn't terminate, trickle charges. I think the approach to charging Li-Ion cells should be one that follows the manufacturers recommendations, which are very strict. It's better to be safe than sorry when dealing with cells that have so much potential energy, and again, they do not recommend a logarithmic charging method, only CC/CV with charge termination.

On hobby chargers being more dangerous than cradle chargers, I don't think you have the statistics to back that assumption up. There are probably a hundred (or more) times as many people using hobby chargers for R/C use than people charging individual Li-Ion cells for flashlights, or any other use. It's a bit like saying Honda Accords are more dangerous than 1939 Studebaker pickup trucks, because they are involved in more accidents. Any method of charging Li-Ion battery cells can be dangerous. It's the nature of the beast.



> BTW, got my new HG-1210W charger today, we'll see if it's any good...


Do let us know what you think.

Dave


----------



## KiwiMark

mdocod said:


> Have you considered building cradles or gutting a few cheap li-ion cradle chargers so that you could use your turnigy chargers to charge more cells at once?
> 
> You can charge li-ion cells in parallel and they will balance out just fine. The important thing is that the cells are within say ~20% or so of each-others state of charge when put in a circuit together in parallel so that no extreme charge/discharge rates occur as the cells balance with each-other. Making an effort to match up cells that are of a similar capacity and internal resistance is also semi-important but not entirely necessary. Set charging rates depending on how many cells and what capacity are installed in the cradle. Shoot for ~0.5C charge rates. Use diligence when installing multiple cells insuring that none are installed backwards
> 
> Eric



I can easily charge up to 8 cells at once - I have a Elephant II body running 8 x IMR 18650 cells. For that the hobby charger is the best one to use. (Lux Luthor made me up some balancing leads with magnets)

But I have several single cell lights - when I decide to go through my lights and charge the cells from them I need fully independent charging channels. If I grab the 14500 from the light in my front left pants pocket and the 16340 from the light in my left jacket pocket and the 18650 from the Jet-IIIM - well you get the idea. (I have lights that use 1 x 10440, 1 x 14500, 1 x 16340, 1 x 18650, 2 x LiFePO4 16340 - with several lights using some of those configs) Of course I don't use the WF-139 for the 10440 cells, but the others charge fine on the WF-139 or the hobby chargers.


----------



## mdocod

The Million Dollar Question:

Anyone tested one of the cheap popular hobby chargers to ensure that *they* are terminating correctly?


----------



## Mr Happy

45/70 said:


> As I pointed out already, a CV charge that doesn't terminate, trickle charges. I think the approach to charging Li-Ion cells should be one that follows the manufacturers recommendations, which are very strict. It's better to be safe than sorry when dealing with cells that have so much potential energy, and again, they do not recommend a logarithmic charging method, only CC/CV with charge termination.


I don't believe there is anything _required_ about the CC/CV charging algorithm. It just happens to give an optimum charging speed.

The key things about Li-ion charging are:


Do not exceed the maximum charging current (that's what the CC bit does -- it applies the maximum charging current, but you could use lower currents if you like);
Do not exceed the maximum charging voltage (that's what the CV bit does -- it applies the maximum charging voltage, but you could use lower voltages if you like);
Stop charging (terminate) when the cell is charged. All chargers should do this.
What you will find is that if you use lower charging currents or voltages (such as with the logarithmic charging behaviors), then charging will take longer. However, as long as the charger terminates at an appropriate time this is just an inconvenience, not a safety hazard.

The laws of chemistry and physics are complicated, and the universe does not generally come up with neat and tidy solutions such as a "perfect" charging algorithm. Everything involves pluses and minuses, and compromises between opposing factors.


----------



## Black Rose

mdocod said:


> The Million Dollar Question:
> 
> Anyone tested one of the cheap popular hobby chargers to ensure that *they* are terminating correctly?


Excellent question.

And with the Accucel-6 (I'm assuming that's the one you are referring to) there are 2 versions now. The old 5A version and the recently updated 6A version.


----------



## 45/70

Mr Happy said:


> I don't believe there is anything _required_ about the CC/CV charging algorithm. It just happens to give an optimum charging speed.



Thanks for the input Mr H.

So, a pure logarithmic charging algorithm may work, although not recommended by any manufacturer that I am aware of.



> However, *as long as the charger terminates at an appropriate time* this is just an inconvenience, not a safety hazard.


And, a logarithmic charging algorithm that *does not terminate the charge* _is_ a safety hazard. That _was_ my point. 

Dave


----------



## mdocod

Hi Mr Happy, 

I entirely agree with your 3 considerations there. Amazing that they can't build a charger that will cover all 3 bases, and I agree, there is a LOT OF ROOM for variations within those parameters set. If these 2 Cytac chargers, charged in the exact same way that they charge right now, but actually terminated when the light went green, then I would be calling them the only reasonable alternative to the IBC. My samples charge a hair higher than I personally like but not by enough to be a concern. 

---------------

I want to give credit where credit is due here:

CPF member lebox97 (illuminationgear.com) sent me the Cytac chargers for testing, and is sending me a few more chargers for testing in the next few days here. I figure I'll probably have them in a week or so. He is trying to find an alternative to the IBC (which he offers) to offer on his site that he can feel comfortable selling. I'm more than happy to test any chargers being sent to me as it benefits all of us. He has latest gen 139s which are semi-reasonable IMO, but I think we'd all like to see something better.

Eric


----------



## LEDAdd1ct

1) Eric, thank you for all the hard work you've put into this thread.

2) I would like to get a second charger, but a second IBC is out for now. I've also toyed with the prospect of getting a friend into 18650 cells, but I wouldn't want to get him an unsafe charger, which, according to the latest facts in this thread, is pretty much every charger *but* the IBC. 

The one remaining charger on my "safe or not safe?" list is the Shekor. Do you have one of these to play with yet?


----------



## hazna

I'm a little confused about the Pila IBC. According to their own specifications they claim to have a standmode mode where it trickle charges???

http://www.pila-usa.com/pilaparts/charger.html


----------



## hazna

hazna said:


> I'm a little confused about the Pila IBC. According to their own specifications they claim to have a standmode mode where it trickle charges???
> 
> http://www.pila-usa.com/pilaparts/charger.html



Nevermind, its explained here (point 5):
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2534238&postcount=1


----------



## leukos

If you want to charge cells one at a time, batteryspace has a few such as this one with CC/CV for $10: http://www.batteryspace.com/smartcharger15afor37vli-ionpolymerrechargeablebatterypack--celisted.aspx


----------



## KiwiMark

mdocod said:


> The Million Dollar Question:
> 
> Anyone tested one of the cheap popular hobby chargers to ensure that *they* are terminating correctly?



My Turnigy Accucel 6 & Accucel 8 both seem to terminate correctly. After the CC stage they use CV until the amperage drops below 1/10 of the starting amount, so if you charge a 32600 at 2A then once the charging current drops below 0.2A the charger will completely stop the charge process and indicate that charging is complete with no trickle charge happening.


----------



## mdocod

Hello LEDadd1ct,

I didn't even know about the shekor until a couple days ago when someone here in a thread pointed it out. The graph they have posted on the sales page for this charger on e-lectronics looks very good and if it's true, then this would probably be the holy grail of cheap chargers we have been looking for. 

Hopefully I'll have an opportunity to test one sometime. 

------------------

Hello leukos,

The charger you have linked to, says right in the product specifications PDF that the output is a clamped standby of 4.20V+/-1%, it also specifically mentions that the light "turns green" when current drops to 150mA but does not say anything about termination. 

On the product sales page, it says that it holds CV until current drops to 0, then terminates, well, holding a CV on a cell will always result in some current to hold the cell at that voltage, in other words, it won't ever terminate. 

At least they are honest 

-------------------

KiwiMark,

That's excellent to hear. Thank You!

Eric


----------



## hazna

I notice you don't like the nano-charger. I have been using them to charge smaller cells such as 10180. My experience with them is they drop in charge current as the battery fills. Light turns green before 4.20V (~4.15V), but continues to charge at a low rate ~20-30mA. When it reaches 4.19-4.20V, there is continual trickle charge of ~3mA. ~3mA seems like its such a low trickle charge, will it actually be bad for the cell (if you take it off within a few hours)?

Please I'm using a cheap DMM, so my measurements might not be 100% accurate.


----------



## mdocod

Hello hazna!

The behavior you have just described is identical to the behavior I have just tested in the YOHO-122, and both Cytac chargers. The measurements you have just taken show that the charger never terminates and will feed whatever current is required to try to hold a cell at 4.20V. I seem to recall on the nano that I was testing, that the clamp voltage was much higher than 4.20V though.

On my YOHO-122, the current flowing into an 18500 to hold 4.20V was just 2.5mA give or take.

This doesn't seem like a big deal, but the effects of this type of charger on an older more worn out cell, especially if the user allows the cell to stay on the charger for long periods of time, could be very dangerous. 

The 3mA rate required to hold it at 4.20V now, will some day be 10mA, after that, eventually maybe 20mA. As the cell ages, the current required to hold a charge voltage on it will increase.

Any form of trickle charging on a li-ion cell is considered bad.

If a user comes along and always makes sure to manually remove a cell shortly after the light "turns green" or "goes solid" or whatever on one of these chargers, then the poor design of the charger will have been offset by user intervention. If you can trust yourself to do this, then that is fine, but would you give this to a family member?

Eric


----------



## DHart

Mr Happy said:


> Everything involves pluses and minuses, and compromises between opposing factors.


 
So true about just about everything in life, isn't it! There's something that must be given up for everything you gain.



mdocod said:


> If a user comes along and always makes sure to manually remove a cell shortly after the light "turns green" or "goes solid" or whatever on one of these chargers, then the poor design of the charger will have been offset by user intervention. If you can trust yourself to do this, then that is fine, but would you give this to a family member? Eric



Eric... sage consideration... li-ions and flashlights are a wonderful godsend for the highly conscientious light nut (they're all I use, generally speaking), but not likely a good recommendation for anyone who isn't really conscientious about such things.


----------



## mdocod

3 more chargers added to the list of reviews.


----------



## Superorb

This is an awesome thread, keep up the great work!

I've got a DX SKU.6105 and noticed that the voltage keeps climbing after the light turns green. Is there a way to measure charge current with my DMM? I've been pulling them from the charger once it turns green.


----------



## mdocod

Hello Superorb,

Great question!

Yes, there is a way to measure the trickle rate. 

When I test these chargers, I purposely use 18500 size cells instead of 18650s because it makes it much easier to complete the circuit with a DMM for testing current. With an 18650, it can be harder, often requiring an external fixture to get the circuit setup through the DMM. 

The way this is done, is to move the test lead to the "10A" or "20A" plug on the DMM, then set the DMM to the corresponding setting. 

In order to measure current, you have to have the DMM in SERIES with the circuit. Putting it in parallel is a good way to short things out and cause damage to cells, DMMs, and chargers, so be very careful and think through how you are going to do this to get a series connection. 

The way I do it with the 18500 size cells, is to just put the 18500 size cell in the slot, and then push/hold one test lead against the back of the cell, such that the front of the cell is held against the positive contact in the charger, and then take the other test lead and hold it to the negative spring good and tight, this creates a series circuit where the charger is charging the cell "through" the DMM as part of the electrical path. This way I can see the current flowing. (the 50mm length cell does not "reach" the spring, so the only place for electricity to flow when I do this is through the DMM). 

The 6105 that I tested will trickle cells to ~4.24-4.26V and hold them there if left unattended. 


Eric


----------



## Superorb

mdocod said:


> Hello Superorb,
> 
> Great question!
> 
> Yes, there is a way to measure the trickle rate.
> 
> When I test these chargers, I purposely use 18500 size cells instead of 18650s because it makes it much easier to complete the circuit with a DMM for testing current. With an 18650, it can be harder, often requiring an external fixture to get the circuit setup through the DMM.
> 
> The way this is done, is to move the test lead to the "10A" or "20A" plug on the DMM, then set the DMM to the corresponding setting.
> 
> In order to measure current, you have to have the DMM in SERIES with the circuit. Putting it in parallel is a good way to short things out and cause damage to cells, DMMs, and chargers, so be very careful and think through how you are going to do this to get a series connection.
> 
> The way I do it with the 18500 size cells, is to just put the 18500 size cell in the slot, and then push/hold one test lead against the back of the cell, such that the front of the cell is held against the positive contact in the charger, and then take the other test lead and hold it to the negative spring good and tight, this creates a series circuit where the charger is charging the cell "through" the DMM as part of the electrical path. This way I can see the current flowing. (the 50mm length cell does not "reach" the spring, so the only place for electricity to flow when I do this is through the DMM).
> 
> The 6105 that I tested will trickle cells to ~4.24-4.26V and hold them there if left unattended.
> 
> 
> Eric


Thanks. 4.25v was as high as I let mine get before pulling. I'm trying to think of an easier way to monitor voltage of the charging cells without cramming the probes between charger contacts and the cell.


----------



## recDNA

Superorb said:


> Thanks. 4.25v was as high as I let mine get before pulling. I'm trying to think of an easier way to monitor voltage of the charging cells without cramming the probes between charger contacts and the cell.


 
Would copper tape or aluminum foil wrapped around the probes and inserted between the charger leads and battery work? I don't want to blow up my battery trying to be super safe!


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Scroll through this DMM instruction thread and you will find out how to monitor your charging. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/236906

Bill


----------



## Superorb

Bullzeyebill said:


> Scroll through this DMM instruction thread and you will find out how to monitor your charging. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/236906
> 
> Bill


Awesome, thanks!


----------



## recDNA

Bullzeyebill said:


> Scroll through this DMM instruction thread and you will find out how to monitor your charging. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/236906
> 
> Bill


 
Hey - I guessed RIGHT! LOL That's a first.


----------



## mdocod

Good idea


----------



## sandysim

Hi all

I bought a Cytac CY015 from 47s and can confirm that even after the green light comes on, i measured a steady current of about 13mAs flowing thru the 16340. For info, with no batteries in the bay, the voltage across the terminals is 4.23V. I did feel it charges my 18650s rather slowly though.

Sandy


----------



## pae77

I received one of the Trustfire 001's from DX last week, so it is likely a recent version. I used it to charge 2 new (never before charged by me) AW unprotected 10440's, one in each of the chargers two slots. It took about an hour for the LED's on the two slots to go from red (charging) to green (trickle, I assume). I pulled the cells from the charger as soon as the LED's turned green.

Since I don't presently own a DMM, I measured the voltage of each cell in my LF2XT, which has a function for that. Since the light has to be on to engage the voltage measurement function, the cells were under a slight load (on low) while the voltage was being measured. The results were that the battery in Slot 1 measured 4.12 volts and the one in Slot 2 measured 4.16 volts. Both cells stayed nice and cool throughout the entire charging process.

I realize that this is not a lot of data to go on and I understand that this charger is potentially dangerous and could also cause unnecessary wear/damage to cells left in the charger after the LED's turn green because of its failure to completely terminate when the LEDs go green, and that the charging algorithm is likely not ideal. 

Nevertheless, am I correct in concluding that it appears that *so long as I pull the cells within a few minutes or so of the LEDs turning green*, that this charger appears to be safely charging my cells to a voltage that will likely promote long cell life, assuming the cells are not over discharged or otherwise abused?


----------



## 45/70

pae77 said:


> Nevertheless, am I correct in concluding that it appears that *so long as I pull the cells within a few minutes or so of the LEDs turning green*, that this charger appears to be safely charging my cells to a voltage that will likely promote long cell life, assuming the cells are not over discharged or otherwise abused?



The biggest problem with using the TR-001 to charge a 10440, is that if it actually charges at 500mA as they say it does, you're dumping about 67% more current into that little 10440 (~300mAh cell, regardless of what it says on the side) than is recommended. Most likely it's not going to blow up or anything, but the cycle life of the cell will be shortened.

As for any of these chargers that don't use a proper algorithm, yes the best thing to do is pull the cells when charge termination is indicated. Personally, I wouldn't charge 10440's in the TR-001. If you want to go cheap for cells 600-700mAh or less in capacity, down to about 200mAh, go with one of these. They aren't perfect by any means, but they're built fairly well and the "trickle" charge is so small that it's not a major problem, however is still an undesirable aspect. Here's a post by wapkil describing how the charger works, from this thread.

Dave


----------



## pae77

I'm about to look at the links you posted, but I just wanted to say that my understanding is the TR001 doesn't really charge at the 500 mA rate indicated on the label. According to what I've read, lots of reviews mention that it is "slow" and at least one person who claims to have measured it said the charge rate adjusts depending on what type batteries are being charged. But I am going to get a DMM in the near future and attempt to check it for myself. At the moment, with my rather limited testing equipment (i.e., the LF2XT), all I can check is the voltage of 10440's after I pull them off the charger when the LED's have turned green. (I'll probably order a DMM from DX so it will take several weeks before I have one in my possession.) 

Anyway, fweimbw, here's what one person who claims to have measured it had to say in a review at DX: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12594

"I received it few weeks ago, and today (22.03.2009) I tested. It seems that has been fixed over-charging problem with the right slot. not necessary to add 2 x 4V3 zener diodes to limit charging over 4.2V! Now is working by default!
1st: 2 x 10440 Li-Ion accu partially charged (at 3.7 and 3.8V). I measured charging current and is 27-30mA on booth slots. When charging leds are RED. After 1.5H, booth leds become GREEN. I measured voltage and booth 10440! Now, have 4.2V! Super ok!
2nd: 2 x 14500 Li-Ion accu partially charged (at 3.7V booth). I measured charging current and is 65-68mA on booth slots. When charging leds are RED. After 3H, booth leds become GREEN. I measured again voltage and booth we have 4.2V! Super ok!
 *Cons*: Not really a cons. I observed that metal spangles which holds battery are to flexible. In some circumstances may be ok, but in general, not! They should be a little sturdy/rigid! When you are inserting cells, spangles can be deformed!
 
*Other Thoughts*: They rated it at 500mA. It isn't. In my case is not a cons. I ordered for my 10440 unprotected cells. It should be charged at lower rates (less than 200mA), so 30mA is ideal. No matter that the charging time will be longer. This lower current is ideal!"


----------



## mfm

pae77 said:


> 1st: 2 x 10440 Li-Ion accu partially charged (at 3.7 and 3.8V). I measured charging current and is 27-30mA on booth slots. When charging leds are RED. After 1.5H, booth leds become GREEN. I measured voltage and booth 10440! Now, have 4.2V! Super ok!
> 2nd: 2 x 14500 Li-Ion accu partially charged (at 3.7V booth). I measured charging current and is 65-68mA on booth slots. When charging leds are RED. After 3H, booth leds become GREEN. I measured again voltage and booth we have 4.2V! Super ok!



Do the math (charge current * time versus cell capacity) and you'll see that his measurements are quite off.


----------



## pae77

Well I'm pretty bad at math but FWIMBW I started charging an unprotected AW 10440 (stated capacity 350 mah) on the TR-001 when it read 3.79 volts as measured in my LF2XT. The LED turned green after 69 minutes at which point I pulled the battery and measured 4.16 volts in the LF2XT. (I have since ordered a DMM. )

I also recently obtained a "Nano clone" from Steve Ku that is designed to charge 10440's at a (stated) 200 mA. I suppose it probably trickle charges as well after the LED turns green so this is another charger that has to be watched so the battery can be pulled off when the LED turns green. But I'm happy (and lucky I suppose) that the LED on this one also turns green at a good voltage for extending cell life (4.15 volts, again according to my LF2XT). :thumbsup:


----------



## klorsey

Hi all,with this thread having a taste about it of being about constructing a safe and well designed charger I thought I'd share my favourite place to search around in for electronic/electrical etc. parts,bits & pieces and technical reference information.I have no financial interest in this group.

It is: jaycar.com.au

I'm not particularly interested in products like their LED torches etc,but they have a range of stuff that might just help you out in your quest to build the perfect whatever.They also have a good range of kits that I enjoyed building as a kid.

I live in Australia and I don't know if you have any or a million stores like this,but I understand they have a lot of North American customers so there might be a few hard to find components in there at least.

Build it.They will come.


----------



## greed

Hi,
Just thought you might like to know I've done some very basic/preliminary testing of a Trustfire TR-002 single cell charger that I bought in the hope it was slightly less rubbish than some of the cheaper and more implausibly rated chargers I saw on dx.

Anyway - in summary - it seems to be one of the chargers that is basically fine - except that it will go to around 4.2v and hold there, supplying whatever low current the battery wants (haven't tried using any artificial load to verify this) which in my case is around 20mA.

During charge it isn't constant current. I haven't tried charging from a very flat cell yet, but starting with a maybe 1/3 discharged 2400MaH 18650 it took around 1.5 hours to charge. It was supplying about 650mA until it reached 4v but this tapered down to 450mA by the time it was at 4.1v and, as stated above, was down to 20mA by the time it reached 4.22v (and the indicator led went green).

I did open it up. Not sure what the control scheme is exactly. There is a 14 pin chip with no markings that seems to be central to the charge control side of things. It doesn't seem to badly made as these things go - its the design flaws more than the quality of construction that bother me. Nothing too dodgy (as cheap nasty smps wall warts and their relatives go) and it runs cool. 

I don't really feel the need to test it any further for now - but will check what it does when I try charging a more thoroughtly discharged cell. It doesn't seem any worse (or better) than the "average" chargers tested so I'm going to stick with it for now (and not leave it unattended/leave battery in after the LED goes green).


----------



## jcw122

I'd like to see the SheKor charger from Kaidomain added.


----------



## Sparkss

I know the topic is consumer cradles, but there has been a fair amount of posts regarding hobby chargers and some DIY cradles (I like the idea of buying a cheapo charger, ripping out the guts and using its cradle w/ a hobby charger ).

My question was this: Is there a good, reasonably priced (around the same as a pila, which is $50 shipped everywhere I looked) that also had multiple channels ? (at least 2).

TIA 

EDIT : I have not completed all the reading I need/intend to (don't have my li-ons yet either, so I have time), but what I took from all of my reading so far was the main issue was charging an over-discharged battery to where the charging rate was over 1C. This happens when a batttery is below a certain threshold volts and charging it would generate too much heat, causing the "bad" reaction, otherwise known as vent/flame. Wouldn't a hobby charger be able to bring such a battery "back from the depths" by setting the voltage charge rate lower than a standard charger would, to more slowly bring the battery back to within safety margins ? then use a "regular" charge cycle (once it is back above 3volts) to finish it off ?

Again, still doing alot of reading. My comments came from my past esperiences. I had taken several electronics courses a while back, was a licensed Commerical Electician (high voltage, facotry atuomation, etc, even worked on the telco's battery backup system once.. now that is alot of batteries.. only 24vdc, but all in parallel.. a truly scary amount of amps) for over a decade and now make my living as a computer tech/programmer. So I have alot of different "concepts" rolling aruond in my brain and still need to read up more on li-on to see how many of my "normal assumptions" actually apply . Short version is I am asking, not telling, so don't beat me up too badly for my comments


----------



## Black Rose

The Xtar WP6 is a 6 channel CC/CV cradle charger that has recently shown up.

Craig (csshih) has one and feels that it's a good charger.

sbflashlights is taking pre-orders for them, with an expected ship date of late July.

Hopefully this one will turn out to be a good alternative to the Pila.


----------



## 45/70

Sparkss said:


> My question was this: Is there a good, reasonably priced (around the same as a pila, which is $50 shipped everywhere I looked) that also had multiple channels ? (at least 2).



If you're talking hobby charger, no, not that I know of. There are other members here that may know of one though. Most of the two channel hobby chargers that I'm aware of, are in the $200-$300 range.



> Wouldn't a hobby charger be able to bring such a battery "back from the depths" by setting the voltage charge rate lower than a standard charger would, to more slowly bring the battery back to within safety margins ? then use a "regular" charge cycle (once it is back above 3volts) to finish it off ?


The problem with an over discharged LiCo cell, without going into great detail, is that when they are discharged to a certain low level, _irreversible_ damage occurs to the cell's structure. How much damage, depends on how low the cell was discharged, how long it remained in such a state, the specific construction of the cell, and the exact chemical composition used in it's construction. This varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and even between batches of cells from the same manufacturer.

So, while you may be able to revive a cell that has been over discharged, it can never again really be trusted. It may go on and lead a normal life, or it could "vent with flame" at any time in the future. The best thing to do, if you insist on trying to revive an over discharged cell, is to keep a very close eye on it. If it seems to get abnormally warm, doesn't hold a charge well, or demonstrates some other odd behavior, it's time to recycle the cell.

Most will say it's best to just recycle a LiCo cell that has been discharged below ~2.50 Volts. I'll have to go along with this, as I feel "better safe than sorry" is the best recommendation to give to others. I say that having a 14250 LiCo cell in my collection that I received with a 0.xx voltage that I did bring back with a bench supply, some years ago. It seems to work normally, but like I said, it can never really be trusted.

Dave


----------



## mdocod

Black Rose said:


> The Xtar WP6 is a 6 channel CC/CV cradle charger that has recently shown up.
> 
> Craig (ccshih) has one and feels that it's a good charger.
> 
> sbflashlights is taking pre-orders for them, with an expected ship date of late July.
> 
> Hopefully this one will turn out to be a good alternative to the Pila.



I'm thinking about ordering one to test.... Was hoping that the seller might contact me to have it evaluated but I guess he/she doesn't know about this thread yet... 

If the on-paper specs are true, then it'll have the IBC beat badly. 

Eric


----------



## DHart

mdocod said:


> I'm thinking about ordering one to test.... Was hoping that the seller might contact me to have it evaluated but I guess he/she doesn't know about this thread yet...
> 
> If the on-paper specs are true, then it'll have the IBC beat badly.
> 
> Eric



Perhaps we should all chip in to get one for Eric. If it pans out as advertised, and Eric is an excellent gatekeeper on this, then we've all got an awesome solution to li-ion charging! 

Anyone? Eric, where do we send funds?


----------



## wquiles

mdocod said:


> If the on-paper specs are true, then it'll have the IBC beat badly.



"If" being the key part of that sentence :naughty:

I have yet to buy anything coming from ASIA with aggressive specs that has meet them, so it is extremely likely that "something" is being stretched "a little". Precision parts simply cost more money, so if the cost is very disproportional to the capabilities promissed, almost always something "does not add up".

Nevertheless, I agree that buying one is a MUST to at least evaluate and see what specs are met, and which are not. Then all of us would have a better idea of what to expect.

Thanks again Eric for this great thread


----------



## Sparkss

45/70 said:


> Most will say it's best to just recycle a LiCo cell that has been discharged below ~2.50 Volts. I'll have to go along with this, as I feel "better safe than sorry" is the best recommendation to give to others. I say that having a 14250 LiCo cell in my collection that I received with a 0.xx voltage that I did bring back with a bench supply, some years ago. It seems to work normally, but like I said, it can never really be trusted.


 
Ironically enough for this topic the Xtar states that if the batery is below 2.9v it will go into "trickle mode". Sounds like wht we are talking about ?

When the voltage is below 2.9V (±2%), the charger is in trickle charge mode, 
When the voltage is 2.9V-4.1V (±1%), the charger is in constant current mode, 
When the voltage is 4.1V-4.2V (±1%), the charger is in constant voltage mode. 
This charger can monitor the status of each battery in real-time when charging. The batteries are charged intelligently and safely by monitoring the batteries status.



mdocod said:


> If the on-paper specs are true, then it'll have the IBC beat badly.


 
and @ almsot $20 less per unit (at for the prices I have been able to find for an IBC shipped).
However, If we go pure spec sheet vs spec sheet there are several chargers that match (or beat ?) the IBC. But the IBC wins out for build quality, reliability and consistency. So call me skeptical, but in this regard the lower cost just makes me suspicious. I don't like to pay more for less (with all things being equal) but I also believe in the old axiom that "you get what you paid for". and unfortunately even 1 test unit of the Xtar might not be enough to tell the tale of it's reliabilty (from one unit to another). Only after months or widespread use and collecting of user expereinces (many many data points) can we say for sure if it is really an "IBC Killer" . I am still waiting anxiously to see the results from a thorough test (like you perform). And many thanks for all of your efforts and this *ver* informative thread !!!



wquiles said:


> "If" being the key part of that sentence :naughty:
> 
> I have yet to buy anything coming from ASIA with aggressive specs that has meet them, so it is extremely likely that "something" is being stretched "a little". Precision parts simply cost more money, so if the cost is very disproportional to the capabilities promissed, almost always something "does not add up".


 
See my comments above. I couldn't agree more.



wquiles said:


> Nevertheless, I agree that buying one is a MUST to at least evaluate and see what specs are met, and which are not. Then all of us would have a better idea of what to expect.


 
I would be willing to donate $5 or so or so via PP to Eric for the purpose of acquiring one of these (Xtar) units for testing. If even half the people who take value from this thread do so then that shuold more than cover the cost.



wquiles said:


> Thanks again Eric for this great thread


 
Ditto again on this one !!!


----------



## Sparkss

DHart said:


> Perhaps we should all chip in to get one for Eric. If it pans out as advertised, and Eric is an excellent gatekeeper on this, then we've all got an awesome solution to li-ion charging!
> 
> Anyone? Eric, where do we send funds?


 

Heheh, somehow I misssed your post when catching up reading and responding. My how greaty minds think alike !!!


----------



## Black Rose

mdocod said:


> I'm thinking about ordering one to test.... Was hoping that the seller might contact me to have it evaluated but I guess he/she doesn't know about this thread yet...
> 
> If the on-paper specs are true, then it'll have the IBC beat badly.
> 
> Eric


I posted a question about the charger in the sale thread, but I don't think my question will be answered until someone like you does a proper test on it.

The specs state:
"3. When the battery voltage is 4.20 (±1%), the charging is complete, the current will cut off completely （ <100uA ）. "

If the current cuts off completely, shouldn't the current be 0uA, not <100uA.


----------



## 45/70

mdocod said:


> If the on-paper specs are true, then it'll have the IBC beat badly.





wquiles said:


> "If" being the key part of that sentence :naughty:



Simply looking at the "on paper specs", one can come to the conclusion that this charger is using some form of a voltage checking based algorithm, similar to the WF-139 and obviously, is not a true CC/CV charger. That said however, I agree that "if" the specs hold true, it may vary well be an improvement over most presently available chargers. The 6 independent charging bays is a real plus, as well. In any case, I don't see it as being a real threat to the Pila IBC unfortunately, as the Pila still seems to be the only "consumer type" Li-Ion charger that utilizes close, to a proper algorithm.

I have to think that the $30 price tag is going to turn off a lot of buyers. This is absurd, of course. As I've said before, why folks are willing to spend $30-$50 for a charger for their $2-$3 NiMH cells, but limit their expenditure to $10-$15 on a charger for their $5-$15 Li-Ion cells, is beyond my understanding.



Sparkss said:


> Ironically enough for this topic the Xtar states that if the batery is below 2.9v it will go into "trickle mode". Sounds like wht we are talking about ?



I imagine that is the case. When I revived the 14250 LiCo, I hooked it up to a bench supply and ran about 5mA through it for a few minutes to bring the voltage up to ~3 Volts and then charged it on a normal charger. I don't see any mention of Xtar recommending this procedure though (for cells discharged to less than 2.50 Volts), and suspect this feature was added merely to start the charging of cells more gently, that have been discharged to a low (but not too low) voltage.



Black Rose said:


> The specs state:
> "3. When the battery voltage is 4.20 (±1%), the charging is complete, the current will cut off completely （ <100uA ）. "
> 
> If the current cuts off completely, shouldn't the current be 0uA, not <100uA.



You are of course correct, Black.  I would imagine that a 0.0001A trickle charge would have little effect on a cell, but still, it shouldn't be there. I would imagine that this "trickle" is somehow associated with the fact that this charger has voltage sensing, but I'm really no electronics expert for sure, just a "Weird Battery Person". 

Hopefully the Xtar will bring some unexpected surprises. It's about time. On the other hand, as long as people keep buying up the cheapo chargers with improper algorithms, and giving them rave reveiws, there is little incentive for the Asian manufacturers to even bother with producing a "good" charger. 

Dave


----------



## wquiles

Black Rose said:


> If the current cuts off completely, shouldn't the current be 0uA, not <100uA.



That might be just the leakage current in the pass transistor when the transistor is OFF - there are no perfect switches. I would guess that other vendors have similar numbers and they just put down "zero", when they probably also might have some micro-amps.


----------



## mdocod

Yea, I better order one and test it.... Like Dave says, before someone else takes a 4.2V reading on a cell and sings to the world the praises of a wonderful charger that is actually an awful piece of garbage. 

I'll place an order for one here either today or tomorrow. 

I'm not sure if there are any rules regarding taking "donations" to help pay for this sort of thing so until I know more don't worry about it, if it's perfectly fine then maybe I'll start up a "to donate so I can test more chargers send $5 *here*" type of thing in the first post of this thread. I'm sure there are more chargers out there that are worth running through the paces. 

Eric


----------



## csshih

I took mine apart and each channel has a charging chip. I have the datasheet somewhere and I'll post it when I get home.


----------



## hank

> counterfeit UL listing on the back ...
> Yes I called UL to confirm my suspicions. 

Thank you. Please keep checking and reporting. This belongs in every review.

Also -- Google!
http://www.hexinyu.com/english/news_dtl.asp?id=88
is just one example with identification and pictures, found with
http://www.google.com/search?q=counterfeit+battery+charger




I'm still using 'Nano' chargers -- watching til the light changes, checking with the multimeter (on a metal plate with a fire extinguisher handy). Waiting for something better that's simple and small for recharging single cells.

I will keep watching this thread avidly.


----------



## pae77

Deleted, repeated info posted earlier, sorry.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

hank said:


> > counterfeit UL listing on the back ...
> > Yes I called UL to confirm my suspicions.
> 
> Thank you. Please keep checking and reporting. This belongs in every review.
> 
> Also -- Google!
> http://www.hexinyu.com/english/news_dtl.asp?id=88
> is just one example with identification and pictures, found with
> http://www.google.com/search?q=counterfeit+battery+charger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still using 'Nano' chargers -- watching til the light changes, checking with the multimeter (on a metal plate with a fire extinguisher handy). Waiting for something better that's simple and small for recharging single cells.
> 
> I will keep watching this thread avidly.



Hank, I have two of those chargers, and they do have questionable performance. Been using them, and remove cells as soon as light turns green. Obviously this charger is not the 6 bay Extar that we are discussing right now.

Bill


----------



## hank

> Nano ... remove cell as soon as the light turns green

Oh, yes. I know they're iffy.

I want a smarter charger, before I fall asleep waiting for the light to change.

Thus following this thread. 

And I hope the masters of CPF support allowing contributions for this testing effort.


----------



## csshih

hey all -- 

this is the exact chip in the charger.
there are 6 of them:
http://www.vitexic.com/data/TP4056Eng.pdf


now i wonder.... what chip does the PILA use?


----------



## 45/70

csshih said:


> this is the exact chip in the charger.
> there are 6 of them:
> http://www.vitexic.com/data/TP4056Eng.pdf



Thanks for the link Craig. :thumbsup:

From Xtar:



> When the voltage is below 2.9V (±2%), the charger is in trickle charge mode,
> When the voltage is 2.9V-4.1V (±1%), the charger is in constant current mode,
> When the voltage is 4.1V-4.2V (±1%), the charger is in constant voltage mode.
> This charger can monitor the status of each battery in real-time when charging. The batteries are charged intelligently and safely by monitoring the batteries status.


I'm OK with the first and last parts, but where do they come up with the second and third parts. These are what led me to believe that this charger wasn't really a true CC/CV charger. I don't see how it could be, with those attributes. A true CC/CV charger isn't voltage controlled, as these two parts of the description suggest. And there is no mention of these characteristics in the data sheet you provided. Sounds like the Pila could be using at least a similar chip, but......

Confused. :thinking:

Dave


----------



## higbvuyb

45/70 said:


> Thanks for the link Craig. :thumbsup:
> 
> From Xtar:
> 
> I'm OK with the first and last parts, but where do they come up with the second and third parts. These are what led me to believe that this charger wasn't really a true CC/CV charger. I don't see how it could be, with those attributes. A true CC/CV charger isn't voltage controlled, as these two parts of the description suggest. And there is no mention of these characteristics in the data sheet you provided. Sounds like the Pila could be using at least a similar chip, but......
> 
> Confused. :thinking:
> 
> Dave


I'd trust the claims on the datasheet rather than what the Xtar guys say, since plenty of meaning can be lost in translation.
What really is the difference between a perfect charging algorithm and something you see on an Ultrafire? Is there a _known, significant_ gain in capacity, safety, battery lifetime?


----------



## 45/70

higbvuyb said:


> I'd trust the claims on the datasheet rather than what the Xtar guys say, since plenty of meaning can be lost in translation.



Thanks for the tip, could be that's the problem. Still, even those numeric figures do not appear anywhere in the data sheet. I find that odd. It almost sounds as if Xtar has incorporated a voltage checking algorithm in with the CC/CV algorithm, which would be completely unnecessary, and I would think, in no way beneficial to the charger.



> What really is the difference between a perfect charging algorithm and something you see on an Ultrafire? Is there a _known, significant_ gain in capacity, safety, battery lifetime?


Yes.



45/70 said:


> ......a voltage checking CC algorithm charger, is a charger which attempts to force cells to a predetermined voltage before terminating charge, which damages used, or older cells in the process. This is the reason a CC/CV algorithm is recommended. The CV stage of a proper algorithm prevents damage to the cells by terminating the charge at a point in the declining charge current, thus eliminating excessive oxidation of the electrodes and the heating up of the cells by overcharging. A proper CV stage also avoids the possibility of trickle charging, as well.



From this post, (one of many) in old4570's thread reviewing the WF-188.

I run up against this "brick wall" every once in a while, and am not going to go into it here, in detail. There is a common belief born of various rumors and hearsay though, that the manufacturers of Li-Ion cells really don't know how they should be charged. With all the vendors that sell inadequate chargers that use a "home-brew" algorithm that very loosely imitates a proper CC/CV algorithm, a lot of users have been brainwashed into thinking that these chargers are OK, when in fact, they are not. In the case of some examples, they are outright dangerous (eg. the original UltraFire WF/UF-139). At the very least, none of these type chargers are good for prolonging cell life.

Dave


----------



## Justin Case

The TP4056's 1.5% accuracy spec for float voltage looks like a potential weak point. If you get a charger that hits the typical value of 4.20V, then you are good to go. But if you are unlucky and get one that is on the high side (4.263V), that is not so great.


----------



## mdocod

The data sheet looks great, if the data sheet for the chip is truthful (it probably is) then I'm really excited to test this charger. The 1.5% tolerance is a little bit wide but that's pretty standard... Hopefully most units will be tighter.

Eric


----------



## Bullzeyebill

OK, let's let mdocod check it out and not do more second guessing on this charger. Enough is enough.

Bill


----------



## csshih

Eric, PM sent!


----------



## Meterman

csshih said:


> hey all --
> 
> this is the exact chip in the charger.
> there are 6 of them:
> http://www.vitexic.com/data/TP4056Eng.pdf
> 
> 
> now i wonder.... what chip does the PILA use?




I am suspicious of the graph of the Charge Cycle, because after exact 1 hour the current drops sharply - but the voltage happily goes on rising without any kink. A breakthrough in charging technology?


In my Pila IBC I found two of these chips: Vimicro VA7205 (with better precision.)




mdocod said:


> The 1.5% tolerance is a little bit wide but that's pretty standard... Hopefully most units will be tighter.



_Standard _to me seems to be 1%. I see a problem here: each of the six chips in the charger - they won't be selected, I'm afraid - has its own tolerance, so the voltage may vary up to 3% between channels!


Wulf


----------



## wquiles

Meterman said:


> In my Pila IBC I found two of these chips: Vimicro VA7205 (with better precision.)


Yup, it does look (on paper) as a really good chip.




Meterman said:


> _Standard _to me seems to be 1%. I see a problem here: each of the six chips in the charger - they won't be selected, I'm afraid - has its own tolerance, so the voltage may vary up to 3% between channels!


I guess something cool would be to buy the chips and assemble/build a charger with high precision parts, and with all matched parts (even 1% resistors will vary +/-1% right?), and do this for each port. This would then minimize differences between caps, resistors, even the chip themselves (there is always "some" variability). Then you would get the very best the particular chip could offer.


Looks like this distributor in ASIA carries both the VM7205 used in the PILA and the new VT4056 used in this new, 6-port charger:
http://www.vitexic.com/chongdianguanli%2811%29.htm


----------



## mdocod

Meterman said:


> I am suspicious of the graph of the Charge Cycle, because after exact 1 hour the current drops sharply - but the voltage happily goes on rising without any kink. A breakthrough in charging technology?...
> 
> Wulf



Is suspect that the graph, like many graphs used to describe a product, was created (basically drawn) not generated via an actual test. Human error but it's a minor and typical oversight.

I suspect that when they "drew" this chart to use to describe their product, they simply neglected to include that finer detail of a very minor voltage dip after the current shuts off. 

Eric


----------



## pae77

Even if there is some variability between each of the bays, with having 6 bays available, hopefully at least 2 or 3 of them would end up being pretty close to each other.


----------



## mdocod

The way I figure is as follows:

Take the Pila IBC. roughly 90% of users report something very close to 4.20V as their termination voltage. About 10% of user report something that is a little further out of bounds that we would normally consider ideal. 

If the trend is similar on the Xtar, then that would be perfectly acceptable considering 3X the charging capacity and about half the price. (There wasn't any shipping charge for first class and the CPF disctount did work so it is in fact half the price of an IBC). 

--------------------

Bill did make a good point, I need to stop with all the hope and dreams here and just wait to see the results of some thorough analysis...

Funny thing, anyone with a DMM, maybe some spare short pieces of wire, a few cells, and alligator clips can do all of the testing that I do. I'm not using anything special aside from sometimes double checking for accuracy across several different meters. 

Eric


----------



## wquiles

Here is another very good IC for LiIon, which can also do LiPolimer, and charge at 4.20, 4.35, 4.4, or 4.5 volts (obviously 4.2 for LiIon only!), which is designed to run from either AC or USB ports!. The specs are very decent (again, on paper). About $1.22 each from Digikey:
Microchip MCP73837/8 ...


----------



## KarlMaldensNose

leukos said:


> If you want to charge cells one at a time, batteryspace has a few such as this one with CC/CV for $10: http://www.batteryspace.com/smartcharger15afor37vli-ionpolymerrechargeablebatterypack--celisted.aspx


 
Still learning...

I thoght it was okay to charge cells one at a time? I'm specifically referring to my Cytac CY-015 charger and AW 18650's and AW 123's (both protected, if that matters). So it is NOT safe to pop in a single 18650 for charging while one bay is empty?

Sidenote: What about charging different cells at once? Specifcally one AW 18650 and one AW 123 in the Cytac at the same time?


----------



## Sparkss

wquiles said:


> Here is another very good IC for LiIon, which can also do LiPolimer, and charge at 4.20, 4.35, 4.4, or 4.5 volts (obviously 4.2 for LiIon only!), which is designed to run from either AC or USB ports!. The specs are very decent (again, on paper). About $1.22 each from Digikey:
> Microchip MCP73837/8 ...


 
Is it me or is this thread turning more into a charger design thread ?  not that I am complaining. With a hand full of components and some moderate soldering skills I believe we could build a much better charger than the ones out there now. Sourcing higher quality components, etc. I looked and didn't see a thread, but has that been done here on CPF before ?


----------



## wquiles

Sparkss said:


> Is it me or is this thread turning more into a charger design thread ?  not that I am complaining. With a hand full of components and some moderate soldering skills I believe we could build a much better charger than the ones out there now. Sourcing higher quality components, etc. I looked and didn't see a thread, but has that been done here on CPF before ?



More like comparing the different specs on different chips used for LiIon chargers available (or soon to be available). But yes, with some basic soldering skills one could make a single cell charger with any one of these various IC's, and if one were to be careful with part selection/matching, you could/should end up with an charger with tighter specs than one produced in mass quantity.


----------



## hank

http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=2735 ?

(apparently a closeout, maybe not worth reviewing)
CC/CV Li-ion C & D Charger (4.2V cut-off, 2A, No trickle) SKU: S004001
(0 customer reviews)


----------



## Nil Einne

leukos said:


> If you want to charge cells one at a time, batteryspace has a few such as this one with CC/CV for $10: http://www.batteryspace.com/smartcharger15afor37vli-ionpolymerrechargeablebatterypack--celisted.aspx



Interesting although a bit too late to read this now, not that it matters they seem to only do UPS and FedEx to ship to NZ.


----------



## 45/70

hank said:


> CC/CV Li-ion C & D Charger (4.2V cut-off, 2A, No trickle)



Getting OT here, but I find that description amusing. The mere fact that it cuts off at 4.20 Volts, suggests that it isn't a CC/CV charger. 

Dave


----------



## KiwiMark

hank said:


> http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=2735 ?
> 
> (apparently a closeout, maybe not worth reviewing)
> CC/CV Li-ion C & D Charger (4.2V cut-off, 2A, No trickle) SKU: S004001
> (0 customer reviews)



I've bought a couple of them, here's a quick review just for you guys:
2A - yeah right! I don't think it is even 1A.
Seems to work Ok for charging a single cell though.
The battery holder is cheap junk, I switched to magnets instead.
Then I switched to one of these:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7028
Once you add freight you are paying more, but then it can charge NiCd, NiMH, Li-ion, LiFePO4, LiMN & PB. It can charge at a true 2A or 0.1A or 6A or anywhere in between. It can charge my 6 NiCd cells from my Mag 6D all at once. It can charge 1 x 10440 cell from my LF2XT light. It is fifty times the charger that the KD one is at not that much more cost. It took very little to re-task an old PC PSU to power this charger (50W from 12V - no prob).

My KD chargers are now in a drawer unused.


----------



## KiwiMark

45/70 said:


> Getting OT here, but I find that description amusing. The mere fact that it cuts off at 4.20 Volts, suggests that it isn't a CC/CV charger.



I think it is a CC/CV the amperage drops off once it gets to 4.2V and once the amps get low enough in cuts off (still at 4.2V)


----------



## pae77

KiwiMark said:


> I've bought a couple of them, here's a quick review just for you guys:
> 2A - yeah right! I don't think it is even 1A.
> Seems to work Ok for charging a single cell though.
> The battery holder is cheap junk, I switched to magnets instead.
> Then I switched to one of these:
> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7028
> Once you add freight you are paying more, but then it can charge NiCd, NiMH, Li-ion, LiFePO4, LiMN & PB. It can charge at a true 2A or 0.1A or 6A or anywhere in between. It can charge my 6 NiCd cells from my Mag 6D all at once. It can charge 1 x 10440 cell from my LF2XT light. It is fifty times the charger that the KD one is at not that much more cost. It took very little to re-task an old PC PSU to power this charger (50W from 12V - no prob).
> 
> My KD chargers are now in a drawer unused.


Would a standard 12 volt 5 amp notebook computer power supply that has the same type of plug that fits in the Maha C9000 jack plug right into and work with one of those Accucell chargers?


----------



## KiwiMark

pae77 said:


> Would a standard 12 volt 5 amp notebook computer power supply that has the same type of plug that fits in the Maha C9000 jack plug right into and work with one of those Accucell chargers?



Yeah, pretty much anything capable of supplying over 10V and under 16V with enough amps to run the charger would work. I just use an ATX PSU because I had some of them lying around, I short the green & black on the M/B connector and it turns on, yellow and black from the molex connectors is +12V & Gnd. Use a multimeter to check the voltage and polarity from any DC power supply and you are good to go!

I love those hobby chargers because they are so versatile. I have NiCd, NiMH, Li-ion, LiFePO4 & IMR cells from 10440 size up to 32650 size and I charge from 0.1A (10440) up to 3A (32650) mostly. I can set a time and/or capacity cutoff and charge to 3.6, 4.1 or 4.2V for Li-ion chemistries. I can also discharge & measure capacity pulled out of the cell and cycle the cell a few times.

My favourite is actually this one:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7523
It can charge up to 7A/150W and discharge much faster than the smaller 50W model (5A/25W vs 1A/5W). It also comes with a thermal probe and USB connection - I have connected it to my laptop and graphed charge/discharge data (amps, capacity, voltage & temp). For what it can do it is a really well priced product. I believe that it could also be powered from a 12V 5A PSU, but that is only 60W so you would have to be careful in the selection of charge rate. However if you only charged a single cell then 7A x 4.2V = 29.4W so you could charge single cells right up to 7A, but for multi-cells you would have to keep the voltage lower. At under 2A you could charge 4 cells safely enough.

Remember though that these hobby chargers are not 'cradle' chargers and though they can charge 6 or 8 cells they don't have completely separate charging channels like the multi-bay cradle chargers have. You can charge a set of Li-ion cells that are the same type & state of charge and by using balancing leads you can monitor & balance the charge in all cells. But a cradle charger can usually charge different cells at the same time allowing you to charge your flat cell & 3/4 charged cell at the same time - you definitely should NOT do that with a hobby charger. On the other hand the cradle chargers I have can't charge a 32650 cell at 3A and I have 2 hobby chargers so I can charge 2 different batteries by using both chargers at once. It is a case of horses for courses - using the right sort of charger for your particular needs.

In my case I have a 50W and a 150W hobby charger, 2 x WF-139 chargers & 2 x 4-bay NiMH/NiCD chargers. I can charge a lot of batteries fairly quickly.


----------



## pae77

Thanks for the info.

But just talking about whether the plug on my power supply would physically fit the jack on the Accucells, would a DC power plug that fits into the Maha c9000 also be the right size (not talking about power levels here) to physically fit the input jack on those Accucell hobby chargers?


----------



## 45/70

KiwiMark said:


> I think it is a CC/CV the amperage drops off once it gets to 4.2V and once the amps get low enough in cuts off (still at 4.2V)



OK, Mark. You have one and I don't.  It sounds like it may actually be a CC/CV charger.

There are so many Li-Ion chargers out there that claim to be CC/CV that actually aren't, that it just sounded suspicious. They perhaps should say something like "CV voltage = 4.20 Volts", or something. The voltage doesn't "cut off" at 4.20 Volts, if it did with a CC/CV charger, the cell wouldn't get a full charge. The voltage is merely limited there during the CV stage, not "cut off".



pae77 said:


> But just talking about whether the plug on my power supply would physically fit the jack on the Accucells, would a DC power plug that fits into the Maha c9000 also be the right size (not talking about power levels here) to physically fit the input jack on those Accucell hobby chargers?



pae, most 12V hobby chargers just have alligator clips for connecting to 12 Volts. Most of these chargers are used in the R/C hobby and the alligator clips make it easy to just hook the charger up to either the vehicle's battery driven to the R/C park, or a 12 Volt battery they bring along for such a purpose.

What I did with mine, was remove the alligator clips and install a 5.5mm connector on mine. This allows me to use a "brick" PS, or I can plug in a cable that has alligator clips, thus returning it back to the way it was. This would also allow you to carry out your idea.

Dave


----------



## pae77

I see. Thanks.


----------



## KiwiMark

45/70 said:


> There are so many Li-Ion chargers out there that claim to be CC/CV that actually aren't, that it just sounded suspicious. They perhaps should say something like "CV voltage = 4.20 Volts", or something. The voltage doesn't "cut off" at 4.20 Volts, if it did with a CC/CV charger, the cell wouldn't get a full charge. The voltage is merely limited there during the CV stage, not "cut off".



This may be a language/semantics issue - I don't think that they are trying to say that it will charge constantly at 2A and when it hits 4.2V it shuts off. I suspect that they are saying the cutoff is 4.2V as opposed to 4.1V or 3.6V, they are also very clearly stating that it uses a CC/CV algorithm for charging. The charging definitely DOES cut off at 4.2V (as it should) but that doesn't mean it cuts off as soon as 4.2V is reached.

My hobby chargers can charge to a cutoff of 3.6 or 4.1 or 4.2V and by cutoff I mean CC charge until the voltage is reached, then CV charge until the amperage has dropped to 1/10th of initial amperage, then stop charging. I suspect the KD chargers use some sort of similar algorithm for charging. For single cell charging I wouldn't recommend the KD chargers to anyone though because they aren't enough cheaper than the hobby chargers and are so limited in what they can do. I seem to remember measuring around 0.7A for a flat battery and dropping once 4.2V was reached - 2A is maybe theoretically what the circuits could be capable of, but it isn't what the charger actually charges at.


----------



## mdocod

Just a reminder: Many of the chargers tested in the first post of this thread do not use a proper CC/CV method with proper termination, but most of them CLAIM to. 

Eric


----------



## csshih

KiwiMark said:


> My favourite is actually this one:
> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7523
> It can charge up to 7A/150W and discharge much faster than the smaller 50W model (5A/25W vs 1A/5W). It also comes with a thermal probe and USB connection - I have connected it to my laptop and graphed charge/discharge data (amps, capacity, voltage & temp). For what it can do it is a really well priced product.



unfortunately.. there is no longer a usb connection or temperature probe on that model. :scowl:


----------



## KiwiMark

csshih said:


> unfortunately.. there is no longer a usb connection or temperature probe on that model. :scowl:



Oh, well - I paid about $70 for mine so the price drop to $42 makes it better value. I kinda like the thermal probe and setting a charge shutoff temperature for safety, but it isn't an essential feature.

This one looks to be about the same, but with temp probe & USB:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6443


----------



## hank

> hobbyking

The link for the manual for that charger is broken (I emailed Hobbyking to report, thinking maybe they'll comment, or put a manual back up there)

Wondering:

How useful is the temperature probe? (is it able to shut off the charger if it detects overheating?) Might be worth looking for a used model. Or is it something that could be added to the lower priced charger with a little soldering?

What's the USB for? power? Programming? (Win/Mac/Unix?)


---------
AAAAACk. Just looked over at the Nano and realized I hadn't been watching it for a while, and found a RCR2 at, gulp, 4.28v.

Not warm; after a dozen 'tests' in a row on the ZTS pulse-load tester, the multimeter shows it down to 4.22.

That's it, I've passed the point I can trust myself to pay complete undivided attention, definitely time for a smarter charger.


----------



## 45/70

mdocod said:


> Just a reminder: Many of the chargers tested in the first post of this thread do not use a proper CC/CV method with proper termination, but most of them CLAIM to.



"Many"? 



KiwiMark said:


> ......The charging definitely DOES cut off at 4.2V (as it should) but that doesn't mean it cuts off as soon as 4.2V is reached.
> 
> My hobby chargers can charge to a cutoff of 3.6 or 4.1 or 4.2V and by cutoff I mean CC charge until the voltage is reached, then CV charge until the amperage has dropped to 1/10th of initial amperage, then stop charging.



I'm with ya man. The way you're wording it though is where I have a problem. My point being that a proper CC/CV charger _does not _cut off at 3.6 or 4.1, or 4.20 Volts. It cuts off at a specified point in the diminishing charge current level, during the CV stage, _at this voltage_. Voltage has nothing to do with the actual termination of the charge. Charge termination will of course, occur at what ever circuit voltage the CV algorithm dictates, but is unrelated to voltage.

This doesn't necessarily mean that the _cell voltage _will be the same as the CV voltage. Therein lies the problem with, as mdocod put it, "many of the chargers tested in the first post". They rely on voltage, for the most part (yes, there are many ways these chargers attempt to imitate a CV stage), as a means for determining charge termination, as opposed to charge current.

Dave


----------



## KiwiMark

hank said:


> How useful is the temperature probe? (is it able to shut off the charger if it detects overheating?) Might be worth looking for a used model. Or is it something that could be added to the lower priced charger with a little soldering?
> 
> What's the USB for? power? Programming? (Win/Mac/Unix?)



On my Accucel the thermal probe can be used to shut off the charger, you can set the temperature you want and it will shut off when it reaches that temperature.

The USB can only be used for graphing the data as far as I can figure out. You can charge and discharge a cell graphing the voltage, temperature, capacity, amps. You can use the balancing taps and graph the voltage of each cell while charging or discharging. Mostly this is a cool novelty, it isn't really necessary to have discharge graphs of your cells.


----------



## pae77

On many models of the "iCharger" (which is another, somewhat more expensive, hobby charger), the USB port can also be used for upgrading the charger's firmware, in addition to graphing.


----------



## Duglum

I was ordering some CR123A yesterday and couldn't stop myself, so i also ordered one of those new Xtar WP6. 
And guess what, it arrived today. Thats what i call fast shipment. 

I made some Photos for you guys, can't measure current or sth. now since all my 18650 are fully charged atm and i need to get some sleep, but maybe later. 

It comes in a nice Paper box, packaging is ok.




Backside of the box




The Charger. Seems to be a quality build (for the price), cant say anything bad.




Back side of the Charger.




AC Power Supply and Car Adapter. Both do no feel cheap. I bought from a German Shop, so its the Euro-plug version.  Oh and yes, those are 6 little magnets. You need them to charge cells without a button, since the positive contact is not standing out.




Cell fitment. (the two ex-laptop cells using the magnets)


----------



## Duglum

Did some tests... i can't provide more Information atm, since i only have a cheap multimeter at hand (3 digits).

- the green LED's flicker red every few seconds when there is no cell inserted in the specific bay, maybe some kind of voltage check
- voltage without a cell inserted is changing all the time, i've seen values from 3.9xV up to 4.5xV
- charging current is roughly 0.60A to 0.62A according to my DMM
- the led turned green (without flickering) at 4.17V cell voltage
- the cell was not hot or warm
- after the led turned green i measured a current of 0.00A. But as stated already, its a really cheap DMM.

Maybe i'll get my Hands on a Fluke DMM in a few weeks... so if theres no real test then, i'll try again.


----------



## mdocod

Hi Duglum, 

great testing so far....

You actually don't need a fancy DMM to do many of the tests I do...

For example:

One of the simple ways I determine if a charger is float charging or not, is to take 2 cells that I know are both going to settle to 4.1V in a day or so, charge them both up on the charger, remove one, and then check each one the next day. (I use old LiMn cells for this). 

If the one that was left on the charger is still sitting at ~4.20V, then it's being float charged. 


Eric


----------



## jamie.91

AMAZING thread, i have a "dsd" charger with a dead power supply and the thaught of a nokia power supply never entered my mind lol

thanks jamie


----------



## Black Rose

mdocod said:


> If the one that was left on the charger is still sitting at ~4.20V, then it's being float charged.


Is that good or bad?


----------



## Superorb

Black Rose said:


> Is that good or bad?


Bad, because it never actually cutoff the charge. Trickle charge is no bueno.


----------



## Black Rose

Superorb said:


> Bad, because it never actually cutoff the charge. Trickle charge is no bueno.


Trickle charge and float charge are slightly different.

Based on what I've been able to find (was regarding SLA cells), float charge stops the current when a certain voltage has been reached and doesn't restart charging until that voltage level drops, whereas trickle just keeps on going.

In Eric's example above, it does sound like it's not ideal as it's trying to force a cell to stay at X voltage when the cell is incapable of maintaining that voltage.


----------



## 45/70

Black Rose said:


> Is that good or bad?



As Superorb said, it means the cell is trickle charging.

9 out of 10 Li-Ion cell's voltage will drop, at least 0.01 Volt, after 20 minutes or so, after removing from the charger (actually probably more than that, unless the cells are _really really_ new, most aren't). If a cell remains at the termination voltage when left in the charger, it means it's "float charging", which is a form of trickle charging. This may be OK for Pb and some other chemistries, but not for Li-Ion cells.

I still have hopes for the Xtar. While I don't really need a charger, it'd be nice to have one that could charge 2 sets of 3x 18650's at a time. I can charge up to 8 18650's in parallel at 625mA/cell with my hobby charger, but it'd be nice to have a more "plug and play" unit for this purpose. It'd also be a lot more portable.



> Based on what I've been able to find (was regarding SLA cells), float charge stops the current when a certain voltage has been reached and doesn't restart charging until that voltage level drops, whereas trickle just keeps on going.
> 
> In Eric's example above, it does sound like it's not ideal as it's trying to force a cell to stay at X voltage when the cell is incapable of maintaining that voltage.


Same thing really. The Pila I believe has a float capability that starts at 4.05 Volts. Typically, this is only activated once every month or two, and that is with older cells that don't hold their charge as well as newer cells.

Dave


----------



## klorsey

Man,as someone who was looking to purchase their first flashlight that costs more than $20 (Probably a modified Olight M20-320 Lumens MaxOutput from BatteryJunction at about US$95) to use with AW P18650's,this is all very disheartening.

Maybe I should just find a so-so LED torch that takes AA Ni-MH's.It sure is a mystery.


----------



## DHart

klorsey said:


> Man,as someone who was looking to purchase their first flashlight that costs more than $20 (Probably a modified Olight M20-320 Lumens MaxOutput from BatteryJunction at about US$95) to use with AW P18650's,this is all very disheartening.
> 
> Maybe I should just find a so-so LED torch that takes AA Ni-MH's.It sure is a mystery.



No reason not to go with li-ion. Even the economical Ultrafire WF139 gets the charging job done reasonably well. My cells (16340, 14500, 17670, 18650) all measure between 4.17 to 4.21 when the green light goes on... then I remove them from the charger. I've gotten a lot of use and charging from my li-ions with this charger and I'm happy with it, imperfect as it is. 

If you follow all the guidelines for using and charging li-ions and safe set-up and monitoring your charger, you'll be fine.


----------



## pae77

Yes, also it's good to remember as Mr. Happy has previously and so wisely, imo, pointed out:



Mr Happy said:


> I don't believe there is anything _required_ about the CC/CV charging algorithm. It just happens to give an optimum charging speed.
> 
> The key things about Li-ion charging are:
> 
> 
> Do not exceed the maximum charging current (that's what the CC bit does -- it applies the maximum charging current, but you could use lower currents if you like);
> Do not exceed the maximum charging voltage (that's what the CV bit does -- it applies the maximum charging voltage, but you could use lower voltages if you like);
> Stop charging (terminate) when the cell is charged. All chargers should do this.
> What you will find is that if you use lower charging currents or voltages (such as with the logarithmic charging behaviors), then charging will take longer. However, as long as the charger terminates at an appropriate time this is just an inconvenience, not a safety hazard.
> 
> The laws of chemistry and physics are complicated, and the universe does not generally come up with neat and tidy solutions such as a "perfect" charging algorithm. Everything involves pluses and minuses, and compromises between opposing factors.


 (Emphasis added.) 

And note that the "Shekor" charger (discussed more fully in another thread and should also be included in this thread, imo) that only costs $10.28 including shipping from Kai Domain seems to meet these criteria quite well.


----------



## KiwiMark

DHart said:


> No reason not to go with li-ion. Even the economical Ultrafire WF139 gets the charging job done reasonably well. My cells (16340, 14500, 17670, 18650) all measure between 4.17 to 4.21 when the green light goes on... then I remove them from the charger. I've gotten a lot of use and charging from my li-ions with this charger and I'm happy with it, imperfect as it is.
> 
> If you follow all the guidelines for using and charging li-ions and safe set-up and monitoring your charger, you'll be fine.



I have 2 of the WF-139 chargers and I too find that they work just fine.

I know some people here don't approve of this charger due to the way the CV algorithm works (not quite done the way you would expect), but no one has been able to say how hard it would be on the cells you charge. I suspect the reduction of cell lifespan would be minor (like maybe 1 or 2 % reduction in the cells life time) and if you were that worried about it you would get a charger that only charges to 4.1V (which increases the life time of your cells by quite a bit, but gives you less capacity from the cells - 4.1V = ~87% charged).

For the average Joe that just wants his cells charged I don't think they would run into problems using a WF-139. (as long as they only use it for Li-ion cells of the LiCo & LiMn chemistry, of course)


----------



## DHart

Though I am relatively content with my WF-139, as it has been meeting my needs just fine, I do look forward to seeing the results of extensive testing of the Xtar charger!


----------



## Justin Case

mdocod said:


> One of the simple ways I determine if a charger is float charging or not, is to take 2 cells that I know are both going to settle to 4.1V in a day or so, charge them both up on the charger, remove one, and then check each one the next day. (I use old LiMn cells for this).
> 
> If the one that was left on the charger is still sitting at ~4.20V, then it's being float charged.
> 
> 
> Eric



What do you mean by "float charged"? Charging current still being delivered to the Li-ion cell during the CV phase, while voltage is being held constant at the float voltage? What is wrong with that, other than the charger takes an excessive amount of time to finish the charge? The cell voltage never exceeds the magic 4.20V mark.

A CC/CV charger should always "float charge", based on the above definition. The charge termination, however, is typically something like C/10 or C/20. It sounds like in your hypothetical, the charge termination could be something silly like C/100.

Look at the following:






In the CV phase, charge current decreases exponentially and charge capacity increases exponentially. But neither hits their limit. Charge current approaches zero. Charge capacity approaches 100%. At C/10 or C/20, the charge capacity for all intents and purposes is close enough to 100% to call it good. But you could certainly go to C/100 and still have a proper CC/CV charge algorithm. It's just an overkill wrt the charge termination criterion. You're getting a fraction of a per cent of additional charge capacity for many extra hours of charging time.


----------



## mdocod

To say trickle charge could imply that the cell is being charged to a higher and higher state of charge, to say float charge could imply that it is being held at a voltage or allowed to "bob" like something floating. Both terms are technically incorrect to describe these chargers that hold a constant voltage but do not terminate. Current continues to flow, and the rate of current flow is higher with older cells, but I honestly haven't given any thought to what the correct way to label this charge method is. 

Technically speaking, when we say CC/CV, if one considers the meaning of that and that only then there is obviously no reference in "CC/CV" to a true termination, but this is what all of the li-ion cell manufactures call for. I think it is implied, that when anyone refers to the "CC/CV" method that one is referring to the full and complete charging requirements laid forth by those manufacturers.

Holding a cell at 4.20V is basically fine if the cell is relatively new and would hold that voltage while resting by itself anyways, as such a "float" charge would have very little effect on the cells anyways, as the cell ages, and wants to settle to ~4.10V or lower after being charged, this charge method could lead to instability within the cell. 

Eric


----------



## KiwiMark

mdocod said:


> as the cell ages, and wants to settle to ~4.10V or lower after being charged, this charge method could lead to instability within the cell.



It would surely at the very least reduce the life time of the cell even if it doesn't do any obvious damage. I'd recommend not leaving the cell on such a charger just to be safe.


----------



## hank

> when the green light goes on... then I remove them from the charger

Maybe the simple answer is a little circuit that watches for the green light --and fires a solenoid to yank the electric plug out of the receptacle (or switches the power off).

Nah. Just more stuff to go wrong.


----------



## Justin Case

mdocod said:


> To say trickle charge could imply that the cell is being charged to a higher and higher state of charge, to say float charge could imply that it is being held at a voltage or allowed to "bob" like something floating. Both terms are technically incorrect to describe these chargers that hold a constant voltage but do not terminate. Current continues to flow, and the rate of current flow is higher with older cells, but I honestly haven't given any thought to what the correct way to label this charge method is.
> 
> Technically speaking, when we say CC/CV, if one considers the meaning of that and that only then there is obviously no reference in "CC/CV" to a true termination, but this is what all of the li-ion cell manufactures call for. I think it is implied, that when anyone refers to the "CC/CV" method that one is referring to the full and complete charging requirements laid forth by those manufacturers.
> 
> Holding a cell at 4.20V is basically fine if the cell is relatively new and would hold that voltage while resting by itself anyways, as such a "float" charge would have very little effect on the cells anyways, as the cell ages, and wants to settle to ~4.10V or lower after being charged, this charge method could lead to instability within the cell.
> 
> Eric



So what is your definition of float voltage and float charging?

How does your concept of float charging differ from trickle charging or standard CC/CV with a very low terminating current criterion of something like C/100. For the latter, I don't see what the issue is other than a poor balance between total charge time vs charge capacity. You get very little gain vs the more typical C/10 or C/20 termination.

If you are trying to send a constant current to the Li-ion cell while holding it at 4.20V (or whatever float voltage), then that's a different matter and it is not CC/CV charging anyway since charge current should decrease exponentially (not be held constant) during the CV phase. In this case, you are going to overcharge the cell, and Li-ions don't like overcharge.


----------



## mdocod

Hi Justin,

Float charging is what happens when you are charging a battery on a boat. 

Trickle charging is what happens when you are charging a battery on a boat that has a small leak. 

Got it?

Good.


Eric


----------



## Justin Case

Ahh, so you are a charging ex-spurt.


----------



## mdocod

Dear Justin Case,

It doesn't really matter what I say or how I say it, it's simply your next round of ammo to hit me with another hint of rude sarcasm. I've tried to be nice but you've worn me thin. You got to me. Goal achieved right? 

Perhaps you'd like to share your definition of float charging and trickle charging with us. That way I'm not supplying you with any ammo. Perhaps you could come up with the elusive new word we will use to define a charger that does not terminate but acts as a constant voltage regulator on the cell. That way whatever word I choose to describe it won't be your next target on the hull.

Worded differently every single point you bring up would be absolutely legitimate and reasonable. 

Would you mind finding someone else on the forum to pick apart for awhile? Maybe you could go ask SilverFox what his "so-called" charging test method is or something. 

With worn thin regards,
Eric


----------



## klorsey

*Re: My last post*

Thanks DHart,pae77,KiwiMark et al. for your advice.I was considering a Pila IBC charger but it's so hard to find anyone who ships them to Oz without rip-off pricing.I came across this place here at cpf:

jsburlysflashlights.com

but they always seem to be "Currently Out Of Stock".At US$54 shipped to Oz,it would be about as good as it gets,but still pretty expensive.

As for the cheaper ones I've also considered Ultrafire & Trustfire chargers.I might end up having to go for one of these.

Is BatteryJunction generally considered a good place to do business,because I contacted (emailed) them with a question around 6am Thursday morning (US EST time) and haven't heard anything back?

Also apart from the Olight M20,what would be a couple of other similar torches that are upgradeable and well thought of around here?


----------



## 45/70

Easy there guys. 

The loose definition of float charging, is supplying a small amount of current to a battery, or cell, to maintain voltage at a charged level. This is basically accomplished by using a controlled, or uncontrolled trickle charge, and is why I previously mentioned that it's pretty much the same thing.

There are two ways that this can be done. Most automotive and marine lead acid chargers simply taper the charge rate down to a very low level that maintains the battery voltage. The better way to float charge, is to charge the battery up to a fully charged voltage state, and then stop the charge. When the voltage drops to a certain lower level, the charger will kick in and top up the battery, again terminating the charge when the fully charged state is reached. This repeats as needed.

As is already well known, Li-Ion cells don't take well to trickle charging, period. From B.U.



> No trickle charge is applied because the Li-ion is unable to absorb overcharge. Trickle charge could cause plating of metallic lithium, a condition that renders the cell unstable. Instead, a brief topping charge is applied to compensate for the small amount of self-discharge the battery and its protective circuit consume.


What isn't mentioned here, is that in addition, oxidation of the cell's internals at higher SOC is compounded by trickle charging. So, in either case, what Justin said is true.



Justin Case said:


> If you are trying to send a constant current to the Li-ion cell while holding it at 4.20V (or whatever float voltage), then that's a different matter and it is not CC/CV charging anyway since charge current should decrease exponentially (not be held constant) during the CV phase. In this case, you are going to overcharge the cell, and Li-ions don't like overcharge.



The only "float" method that is acceptable for charging Li-Ion cells, is the second method that I mentioned previously. This involves terminating the charge when the cell is fully charged. When the voltage drops to ~4.05 Volts for a LiCo cell for example, the charger kicks in to top the cell off, and then again terminates the charge. With Li-Ion cells in good condition, this typically occurs once every so many weeks, or months.

Unfortunately, the only "consumer type" Li-Ion charger that uses a proper CC/CV algorithm, _and_ that properly float charges cells in this manner, is the Pila. I might add that most do not recommend using this feature, for safety reasons. Most other available chargers either simply terminate after a modified CC algorithm completes, which while the charge rate diminishes to some extent towards the end of charge due to increasing cell resistance, is still at too high a current level, as Justin pointed out. The rest of these chargers follow along in pretty much the same manner, and some don't terminate at all, but continue to trickle charge at a low level. In either case, they don't follow the recommended charging method, and in effect, overcharge cells. Note that a cell can be overcharged, even though the voltage remains constant. This happens when the charging current equals the cell's self discharge, which is highest in a fully charged state.



KiwiMark said:


> I know some people here don't approve of this charger due to the way the CV algorithm works (not quite done the way you would expect), but no one has been able to say how hard it would be on the cells you charge. I suspect the reduction of cell lifespan would be minor (like maybe 1 or 2 % reduction in the cells life time)......



First, it's a modified CC algorithm, not a CV algorithm and the difference has more to do with what is recommended, rather than any expectations. You're right, I don't have any comparative figures to present. You have to ask yourself however, is the potential plating out of metallic lithium, increased oxidation, and heat generated using this method, good for the cell? Again, I don't have any figures, but I would imagine the difference is much larger than 1, or 2%.

I, nor anyone else is saying that the WF-139 won't charge cells, but why not just do it correctly? It certainly isn't going to hurt anything. It may cost a bit more to do so, but the cost of Li-Ion chargers is only a fraction of the cost of NiCd/NiMH chargers, in proportion to the cost of the cells.


As mdocod and others have brought up many times, why can't these manufacturers just come up with a charger that actually charges Li-Ion cells correctly? They should have gotten it right the first time, IMO. It sounds like the Xtar, is at least a step in the right direction, and I'm hoping that it turns out to be the first (OK, second), of many good Li-Ion chargers to come.

Dave


----------



## mdocod

*Re: My last post*

Hi klorsey,

I have in route an Xtar 6 bay charger. I'm not sure when it's going to arrive, but this may prove to be a good alternative to the Pila IBC for folks who are having a hard time getting IBCs internationally. If you have time to spare, you might wait till it has been evaluated

Eric.


----------



## waddup

it would be very helpful if there was recommended charger/s. 

i believe any of the unsafe chargers should be *warned against* to protect people from injury


and the better ones recommended.

clearly, in bold *red*. 

maybe even a list of all the chargers with a score (1-10) next to it in the first post of this thread?

much easier then having to read 7 pages of imfo and trying to determine the facts.


----------



## klorsey

Thanks mdocod,I'll see how it goes,I'm trying to make a complete change from primary batteries to re-chargeables.To me it sounds a hell of a lot easier than reality.

I have a good idea about what to do about each individual battery type (ie. AAA,AA,C,D,9v,Li-ion 18650's,R123a's etc.) but putting it all together as "The best solution" is a whole other ball game.A real expensive nightmare!


----------



## pae77

*Re. Consumer Li-Ion "cradle" charger roundup . . .*



klorsey said:


> Thanks DHart,pae77,KiwiMark et al. for your advice.I was considering a Pila IBC charger but it's so hard to find anyone who ships them to Oz without rip-off pricing.I came across this place here at cpf:
> 
> jsburlysflashlights.com
> 
> but they always seem to be "Currently Out Of Stock".At US$54 shipped to Oz,it would be about as good as it gets,but still pretty expensive.
> 
> As for the cheaper ones I've also considered Ultrafire & Trustfire chargers.I might end up having to go for one of these.
> 
> Is BatteryJunction generally considered a good place to do business,because I contacted (emailed) them with a question around 6am Thursday morning (US EST time) and haven't heard anything back?
> 
> Also apart from the Olight M20,what would be a couple of other similar torches that are upgradeable and well thought of around here?


If you are going to get a cheap Li-ion charger, I really think the Shekor (which I mentioned before) is a much better choice than either the Ultrafire or Trustfire because, afaict, it does a better job of *approximating* a true CC/CV charging method and it is one of the very few cheap ones that does in fact completely terminate and cut off the current (i.e., *does NOT trickle*) when the charge cycle is complete and the LEDs go out. And based on user reports, it seems that most samples reliably terminate below 4.20v. (I like it so much I have recently ordered a second one.)

I also have one of the Trustfire's and while I think it (my particular sample at least) is pretty good (mine reliably terminates at ~4.16v), it's one that doesn't completely shut off the current at the end of the charge cycle and therefore requires keeping an eye on it so you can pull the batteries when the LEDs turn green. So with this charger, you run the risk of subjecting your batteries to a trickle charge should you fail to remove the batteries when the LEDs turn green, which is not good for the batteries, especially over the long term.

Re an upgradeable flashlight, this should really be addressed in a different thread as it is definitely OT here, but that said, take a gander at the Solarforce L2 line (L2, L2P, L2R, L2M, etc.). Just do a search on Solarforce and read a few of the many threads on them for more info.


----------



## Superorb

*Re: My last post*



klorsey said:


> Man,as someone who was looking to purchase their first flashlight that costs more than $20 (Probably a modified Olight M20-320 Lumens MaxOutput from BatteryJunction at about US$95) to use with AW P18650's,this is all very disheartening.
> 
> Maybe I should just find a so-so LED torch that takes AA Ni-MH's.It sure is a mystery.



Have you looked into Solarforce? I got a host for $13 shipped and the 3-mode XP-G Thrunite Dropin for $35 shipped. I also have a stainless bezel and a stainless lanyard ring too. But, it's much cheaper than the EagleTac and you can customize it to your liking. 18650 cells are cheap from DX, $10 shipped for 2x18650 cells and then $6 for the DX charger or $10 for this Shekor charger.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Would you guys please stop changing the thread title in your posts? It is not your thread, mdocod is the OP. It is confusing clicking on a thread title and finding some other title in a post. 

Bill


----------



## lovenhim

I have been reading in this thread and also using the search. I am becoming more confused. OK can someone give me "dummies" help and make this simple for me? I own these lights:

Fenix P3D
Quark 123 regular
Quark 123 X2

I am currently using a rechargeable setup that is on load to me from 357mag1 from this forum. He is letting me use his Ultrsfire EF138 and ten RCR123 cells in various brands. I am using matched pairs just like they were provided to me, so two AW's, two Battery Stations, etc. I have read so much about protected and unprotected cells and it seems that I want protected cells. I am concerned about battery damage and overcharging. I do not yet have a DMM. I will buy one when/if I get a rechargeable setup. 
Can you give me "newbie" guidelines on a charger and battery sizes to get? From reading the AW cells are the ones everyone says to get, but what about the charger? Should I run 2 RCR123 cells or a single cell in my 2CR123 lights? Some like to run two cells and some prefer a single cell. 
I would like help picking the right items that will work out of the box, no mods or worry, just plug and play.  I am sorry for the question but searching is making me more confused. Thank you for the help.


----------



## HeyGuysWatchThis

waddup said:


> it would be very helpful if there was recommended charger/s.
> 
> i believe any of the unsafe chargers should be *warned against* to protect people from injury
> 
> 
> and the better ones recommended.
> 
> clearly, in bold *red*.
> 
> maybe even a list of all the chargers with a score (1-10) next to it in the first post of this thread?
> 
> much easier then having to read 7 pages of imfo and trying to determine the facts.



Hear! Hear! I second this idea. 

I've been puzzling over this topic for awhile, and had pretty much settled on one of the Hobby King chargers, but this Xtar unit has me pretty interested. Multiple independent bays would be great, assuming the charger has the proper algorithms and shut off. 

On a more general point, though, if the charger is found to actually shut off after terminating, is it safe to leave the unit unattended, say overnight, assuming it is in some kind of fireproof containment? Also, what is a good way of achieving that kind of containment?


----------



## Illum

*Re: CPF Li-Ion charger*

Eric, I wonder if the use of trickle charge instead of termination means that when termination ends the cell could discharge back through the circuit [somehow] and the trickle charge feature is used to compensate for low voltage lockout? The only cell chemistry I can think of that wouldn't mind trickle charging is PbSO4 and Gel :thinking:



rmteo said:


> A full featured 500mA Li-Ion can be constructed from a single IC (less than $1) and a handful of passive external components:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All it would need is a 5.0V DC supply (actually anything from 3.75V to 6.0V DC will work). It will charge RCR123's (1.5 hours charge time) and 18650's (about 5.5 hours charge time). Any number of _*independent channels*_ can be had by duplicating the above circuit. A 4-channel charger for RCR123's (16340) can be implemented on a 3 x 2.5in PCB. The biggest issue is the battery holder. For RCR123's this is available for $0.78:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the larger 18650, I have not been able to locate a commercially available holder. If there is sufficient interest, I will start another thread to pursue this *"CPF Li-Ion Charger"* project.



There are PCB pins for AA cells, perhaps weld a spring on to that before soldering it in?

I'm planning to build this to see what happens, and while thats building I'm charging protected/unprotected cells through a AW PCB that is in term connected to my DSD. Single channel? Fine, I can still charge unprotected/protected at the same time through this PCB and not have issues...not that I would want to try it out for kicks
EDIT: my supplier wants a lead time of 116 days with a min qty of 3000, nevermind on the build

I figure hey, dual protection is better than one. I wonder if I can integrate the protection circuit in with this circuit above, an individual PCB per channel.:nana:


----------



## a1penguin

klorsey said:


> Man,as someone who was looking to purchase their first flashlight that costs more than $20 (Probably a modified Olight M20-320 Lumens MaxOutput from BatteryJunction at about US$95) to use with AW P18650's,this is all very disheartening.
> 
> Maybe I should just find a so-so LED torch that takes AA Ni-MH's.It sure is a mystery.



I'm happy with my DX 6105. Batteries come off at 4.18-4.20. Even if I owned a fancy expensive charger, I'd still take the same precautions I use with the cheap charger: charging on fireproof kitchen counter and checking during commercials to make sure batteries don't sit in the charger after the light goes green.


----------



## mdocod

I'll try to make a quick reference chart... It's a good idea, but I'm not sure how helpful it will really be. (fail fail fail fail fail mediocre fail fail fail pass fail fail fail....)


----------



## Superorb

a1penguin said:


> I'm happy with my DX 6105. Batteries come off at 4.18-4.20. Even if I owned a fancy expensive charger, I'd still take the same precautions I use with the cheap charger: charging on fireproof kitchen counter and checking during commercials to make sure batteries don't sit in the charger after the light goes green.


This is the same charger I use, it's been great as long as I remove the cells when the lights turn green.


----------



## Illum

Superorb said:


> This is the same charger I use, it's been great as long as I remove the cells when the lights turn green.



I'm looking at my DSD and I figured since these are bicolored LEDs it may be possible to use two LEDs, the pins for red would be then connected to an optoisolator that is tied to one end of the battery. Immediately when the red [charging] signal switches to green, the optoisolator LED turns off, which turns off the photodetector and disconnects the battery. 
Sure that its introducing some resistance in the equation, but that signal from the photodetector would have some potential to be amplified and used to trigger a MOSFET, which as long as the on/off is saturated there should be little heat and can handle however high the charge current may be.


----------



## klorsey

*Re: Torch/Charger Advice*

Thanks a lot pae77,mdocod,Superorb,a1penguin and waddup for all your advice.

I came across the Shekor charger once before here at cpf,but I had completely forgotten about it.It looks like a great (Safe) alternative to the more expensive Pila IBC pae77.

The Triton Digital Computer Charger V2 looks very interesting and I look forward to learning more about its' capabilities waddup.At US$99+shipping etc. it might end up being very economical (& environmentally friendly??) depending on exactly what it'll charge.I also hope I could get one without rip-off shipping rates to Oz,if only it turns out well.Anybody got a suggestion?

Those Solarforce "Pick & Choose" torches look unbelievable for the price Superorb and pae77, at this place:

http://www.sbflashlights.com

shipping for 1x L2p complete torch to Oz is US$10.That's if you don't want to go crazy with Express Shipping for the outrageous price of US$20.E:~o Pity they seem to peak at 250 Lumens,but for the price they look impossible to beat.I wonder if there are higher output drop-ins available elsewhere for the Solarforces' as I see you can buy the L2p torch piece by piece (ie. no drop-in).I'd l'd love a drop-in that would bring a Solarforce L2p closer to an Olight M20s 2010,a Fenix TK12 R5 or an EagletacT20C2 MkII.If anyone has any answers to this,please let me know.I would appreciate it.Ican't believe I've never heard of these torches before!

Regards all,klorsey.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Please do not change the thread title in posts in this thread. BTW, this is a thread about "Li-Ion cradle chargers" not about placing links for various flashlight manufacturers, or distributers. Please keep to the topic of this thread.

Bill


----------



## pae77

Bullzeyebill said:


> Please do not change the thread title in posts in this thread. BTW, this is a thread about "Li-Ion cradle chargers" not about placing links for various flashlight manufacturers, or distributers. Please keep to the topic of this thread.
> 
> Bill


+1

This is definitely not the right thread to discuss Solarforce or P60 drop ins. Why not start a new thread about that over in the LED flashlight section? I'm sure it would generate some interesting and helpful responses.


----------



## klorsey

Reading the forum rules,I don't seem to have sufficient privileges to post a new question in the CPF Forum.This gives me 2 choices.Read other threads and find an answer if I can,or forget about CPF for an answer to my question.

I don't own anything that is talked about here.I'm looking for information about where to start with these things.

With your search engine I seem to have very good luck in finding threads that are as dead as a door nail.

Typing what I'm looking for into the "CPF Only" search engine gives me a coin toss,(ie.it's useless about half of the time).For example It took a search for an Olight M21 review to find anybody who had the current ability to ship a Pila charger for a descent price to Oz (It came in the form of an advertisement),a search for "Pila charger" on the day didn't offer that answer or anything else worthwhile.

Don't get me wrong,I understand it's not my website,it's somebody else's (I get it's no TV show).Rules/regulations/restrictions/restraints/exclusions and exceptions are your right.

I accept your complaints.

It seems the Net as a whole is moving in your direction at a rapid pace,fast enough to cause some injuries.Sometimes injuries seem a whole lot easier to take care of in hindsight.

Nice day,klorsey.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

klorsey, PM to you.

Bill


----------



## mdocod

Without order, we have only chaos. If we start discussing any topic in any thread, then we shouldn't bother having different threads or categories, just make it a chat room. 

Wouldn't be very productive in the long run. 

The trick is knowing what to search for, learning how to search has mostly to do with becoming familiar with the commonly used terms, the only way to do that is just started reading through threads in the areas that are the most closely related to the direction one is looking for. 

Eric


----------



## Sparkss

Got my Pila in last week, but still interested in any reedback from these Xtars (something about charging 6 batteries at once ).

TIA


----------



## FlashPilot

Sparkss said:


> Got my Pila in last week, but still interested in any reedback from these Xtars (something about charging 6 batteries at once ).
> 
> TIA


 
Agreed. Looking forward to detailed reviews on the Xtar WP6.


----------



## mdocod

I wish it would show up, it's been about 2 weeks. I'm not sure where it's coming from though.


----------



## don.gwapo

Looking forward for this xtar wp6 charger also. It will gonna be my first 18650 charger since i'm still using rcr's on all my lights. Time to get aw 18650 now so that I can have more run times.


----------



## Black Rose

mdocod said:


> I wish it would show up, it's been about 2 weeks. I'm not sure where it's coming from though.


You paid for a pre-order.

Jason hasn't received the chargers yet, they are still in Hong Kong.
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2526296&postcount=21


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Is this where you order from, a Texas store?

Bill

Whoops, can answer my question, yes. Clicked on Black Rose's link.

Bill


----------



## mdocod

Thanks guys, that explains the shipping time. 

Others have been talking about already having them, taking them apart, etc etc, so I assumed they were already shipping from sbflashlights. 

Eric


----------



## Duglum

mdocod said:


> Thanks guys, that explains the shipping time.
> 
> Others have been talking about already having them, taking them apart, etc etc, so I assumed they were already shipping from sbflashlights.
> 
> Eric


I got mine from this Shop, in case someone wants to know. 
They shipped so fast, i had it in my hands in under 24 hours, but that was inside Germany. I have no idea if they ship internationally.


----------



## Scott Packard

I'm happy with the Xtar WP6 charger I bought from sbflashlights. That is my overall feeling about this charger.

Note: Must use included magnets on head of non-button top battery in order for the positive end to make contact with the metal positive tab on the charger.

The cells and the charger stay cool during the whole charging process.

When plugged in and empty of cells, each of the 6 green/red LEDs stays green for
about 2.5 seconds, briefly flashes red, then repeats. I put a DMM onto the terminals
and saw each is hunting down between 4.6V to 4.0V during the 2.5 seconds interval.
As soon as a battery is inserted the voltage stabilizes to either:
a) a charging voltage, if the LED turns red
b) the battery voltage, if the LED stays green.
I only see it hunt and blink red if there's no cell at all in a bay.

I ran one 18650 unprotected cell through it while trying to balance the test probes
of an Agilent U1253A DMM on the contacts and the magnet. My probes didn't work very well;
I broke contact when the battery was above 4.10 volts. The charging stopped and would
not restart. I didn't want a mismatched cell so I used my Cytac 18650 charger to charge the
cell the rest of the way. I mentally noted I should not interrupt the charge cycle
on this charger.


Next, I soldered wires to two magnets in order to do a better test w/o 
charging interruption.

I got three of Wolf Eyes LRB168 (a longer 18650 cell), put one into the same
bay as I had used earlier, but used the magnet-wires to monitor voltage.
I programmed the Agilent to peak-hold the voltage. The highest peak it recorded
was 4.2036V.

Next, I put the other two Wolf Eyes cells into bays 2 and 4 and just monitored
bay 4's voltage. It does some interesting voltage saw-blading. It rocks up
and down during the charge cycle, in periods of 10 seconds if I remember,
both in the CC part of the charge and the CV part of the charge.
This is the first charger I've bothered to measure while charging so I don't know
if it's usual or not (but I do see a log of at least one other charger that
seems to have a saw-tooth charge voltage). Also, it doesn't saw-tooth up
to the highest peak. It's more of saw-blading of about 0.1 to 0.2V, depending on
how early on or late into the charging cycle it is.

The highest peak was 4.2076V. The peak doesn't happen just at termination though.
I reset the peak 4 times during the last hour of charging. I saw a few 4.20xx
peaks, none higher than the final peak.


----------



## 45/70

Scott Packard said:


> ...... I put a DMM onto the terminals
> and saw each is hunting down between 4.6V to 4.0V during the 2.5 seconds interval.
> 
> ......I broke contact when the battery was above 4.10 volts. The charging stopped and would
> not restart.
> 
> ......I mentally noted I should not interrupt the charge cycle
> on this charger.
> 
> ......It does some interesting voltage saw-blading. It rocks up
> and down during the charge cycle, in periods of 10 seconds if I remember,
> both in the CC part of the charge and the CV part of the charge.
> 
> ......I don't know if it's usual or not (but I do see a log of at least one other charger that
> seems to have a saw-tooth charge voltage). Also, it doesn't saw-tooth up
> to the highest peak. It's more of saw-blading of about 0.1 to 0.2V, depending on how early on or late into the charging cycle it is.



Humm. This doesn't sound good, as far as the Xtar's potential for being a true CC/CV charger. What you are seeing, is usually a sign that the charger is "voltage checking", a procedure common to "CC only" chargers, to prevent overcharging of the cell. A true CC/CV charger does not require voltage checking.

Thanks for your observations. Hopefully mdocod and others will have some additional info on this charger soon.

Dave


----------



## mdocod

I seem to recall reading something about t the Xtar to the effect that it ramps down the charge rate to protect the charger from overheating. With how warm the IBC gets with only 2 bays, I wouldn't be surprised if this unit is not going to be able to sustain 600mA on all of the bays, so the ramping up and down could just be it's way of making sure that when it is protecting itself from heat, it's balancing the reduced rate across all bays. 

Just a guess....

Just so yall know, Mine did arrive on Friday, but I haven't had a chance to test it. Need to finish up PhD-M6 adapters and do an adapter repair before I can dedicate any time to testing it. 

Eric


----------



## higbvuyb

45/70 said:


> Humm. This doesn't sound good, as far as the Xtar's potential for being a true CC/CV charger. What you are seeing, is usually a sign that the charger is "voltage checking", a procedure common to "CC only" chargers, to prevent overcharging of the cell. A true CC/CV charger does not require voltage checking.


I doubt it has six CC/CV charging chips in there for decoration, though.


----------



## 45/70

higbvuyb said:


> I doubt it has six CC/CV charging chips in there for decoration, though.



Good point.  Perhaps mdocod's idea explains the situation.

I still find it odd that the Xtar possesses a voltage as high as 4.6 Volts though. I've never heard of a CC/CV charger that operated at a voltage higher than 4.25 Volts, and this is at the extreme high end of allowable tolerance. Also, why would the voltage fluctuate between 4 and 4.6 Volts with no cell installed? I have never seen anything like this in a CC/CV charger before. Perhaps you can explain?

Dave


----------



## mdocod

I just measured my Xtar and IBC open circuit voltage.

My Xtar seems to be doing the same thing, ramping up and down from ~4.2 to 4.5V about once every second or so. 

Interestingly enough, the IBC does the same ramping up and down, (I had never payed much attention before), but it seems to do it from like 4.10 to 4.18V.

Different voltages, but similar "behavior." 

Eric


----------



## mdocod

Some initial testing on the Xtar (I got an itch I couldn't resist):

Sometimes the charge current ramps up and down for the first few seconds that the cell is connected. Similar to the way the voltage seems to ramp up and down when measured open circuit. Current bounces up and down for a short while, then stabilizes and runs constant after a few seconds. The exact behavior of this "bouncing" seems to change depending on where along in the charge the test is performed. At this time, I can't find any reason to call this slightly odd behavior a problem as it doesn't seem like it could possibly effect the safety of the charge. This behavior does not appear to be anything like the voltage checking behavior of a WF-139 style charger. The WF-139 style chargers have a pronounced dip to zero charge voltage differential to get a no charge load reading of the cell. In this case, it's more like a "wobble" that calms down in a few seconds. If I had to guess, it's probably a purpose designed algorithm that the chip uses to hone in on the target charge rate. 

The charger starts to produce noticeable heat in just a few minutes if you install 6 cells all charging at 600mA, however, _so far,_ I haven't seen it cut power output due to heat... (maybe if I started with 6 cells more heavily discharged, I'll try to test for that some time). Most of the heat generated is in the body of the unit up around where the LEDs are. There is a vent on the bottom and 2 on each side of the top around this region that seems to create a proper convection cycle to move heat out of the unit. The cells themselves do not really warm up much at all. (In fact, most of my other chargers that charge at a similar rate will heat the cells more than this).

Charge rate slows down when cells start to approach ~50% state of charge. It's down to ~400mA with the cells at 4.0V open circuit, or about 80% SOC. Up to the point where it starts to ramp down, every bay seems to deliver a solid 600mA (+/- 30mA by my tests) as claimed. Doesn't seem to matter if 1 bay or all bays are loaded or if the charger is hot or cold, the charge rate starts to drop off when *charging voltage* gets closer to ~4V, (didn't catch the exact point on the first rough round of testing but it's somewhere around there.) 

The charge voltage has not reached the target destination voltage when the charge current starts to ramp down. This simple fact disqualifies the charger as having a "true"" "CC/CV" charging algorithm.

Ramping down the charge current in this fashion _in and of itself_ does not violate any safety issues for the cells during charging. However, we have yet another charger claiming CC/CV that does not actually do exactly that. (they did mention a reduced charge rate at 4.1V in the specifications, which was definitely a "flag" to there being some degree of contradiction in the claims). Many consumer devices fail to hold constant current all the way up to the target voltage just like this charger, they probably use similar chips. The *important* thing that I will be testing for in the coming days will be if there is any evidence of trickle charging. Initial testing shows no measurable trickle charge or float charge of any sort.

When cell state of charge gets up around ~4.10V (I'll have to hunt down the exact point, but it's somewhere around here), the charger will not normally initiate a charge on the cell much like the IBC. The light stays green and I can not measure ANY current flowing to the cell on my meter. I like this feature as it can quickly tell you if your cells are up around 90% or better. Just like the IBC, it can be forced to initiate the charge if you cycle the power input to the charger with the cell pre-loaded. (The IBC has the convenient little switch). For the Xtar, just unplug the power input from the side of the charger and plug it back in. I'm sure someone who really wants a simple way to do this could put a little interrupt push-hold style switch on the power cord or maybe even mount it to the charger. After cycling the power, the charge rate jumps to ~300mA with the cell at ~4.10V SOC, @~4.15 charging voltage (with these cells.).

I have been able to catch one charge termination in action (red to green light) and watched the cell voltage suddenly drop a few hundredths as would be expected with a proper termination. This is very promising news. 

I still want to get a feel for what kind of termination accuracy I'm going to get across the various bays with different types of cells, but so far I'm much happier with this charger than most chargers I have tested. The typical inaccurate claims bug me as usual, but then again, it's hard to articulate to the consumer that a charger is "not" a CC/CV charger but then say that it's "Okay" because X Y and Z. Tuff bag of worms to deal with. I'm leaning towards a "mostly free pass" on the contradiction in claims if testing continues to go well on all other fronts. 

[edit in]

Post termination cell voltage:
Bay 1: 4.19V
Bay 2: 4.21V
Bay 3: 4.22V
Bay 4: 4.20V
Bay 5: 4.21V
Bay 6: 4.22V

Eric


----------



## Justin Case

mdocod said:


> The charge voltage has not reached the target destination voltage when the charge current starts to ramp down. This simple fact disqualifies the charger as having a "true"" "CC/CV" charging algorithm.


 
Looks like Meterman called it:



Meterman said:


> I am suspicious of the graph of the Charge Cycle, because after exact 1 hour the current drops sharply - but the voltage happily goes on rising without any kink.


----------



## HeyGuysWatchThis

Those are some encouraging results, MDOCOD. I'm still considering one of the Hobby King units for their diagnostic capabilities, though, because I am going to be using laptop harvested cells.


----------



## Superorb

I just read a post from one of the vendors on the specs of the Xtar charger. Notice #4 especially. Looks like it'll restart charging if the cells sit dormant in the charger long enough to drop voltage.


1. This charger can charge 6 x 14650/17670/18650/18700 batteries at the same time. It has six independent charging channels and has a three mode charging method.



 When the voltage is below 2.9V (±2%), the charger is in trickle charge mode,
 When the voltage is 2.9V-4.1V (±1%), the charger is in constant current mode,
 When the voltage is 4.1V-4.2V (±1%), the charger is in constant voltage mode.
This charger can monitor the status of each battery in real-time when charging. The batteries are charged intelligently and safely by monitoring the batteries status.
 
2. When the AC adaptor or car adaptor is unplugged, the charger will turn to a lower current status automatically and each channel batteries’ leakage current will be under 4uA.


3. When the battery voltage is 4.20 (±1%), the charging is complete, the current will cut off completely （ <100uA ）. But the charger will continue monitoring the batteries in each channel. 


4. When the batteries’ voltage is down to 4. 05v (±1%), charging cycle starts again to keep the batteries in full charging status. When the batteries’ voltage is down to 4. 05v (±1%), charging cycle starts again to keep the batteries in full charging status. Whe n the batteries’ voltage is down to 4. 05v (±1%), charging cycle starts again to keep the batteries in full charging status. 

5. The charger manager chipset will monitor IC temperature itself, when the temperature is too high, the current will decline in order to ensure the chipset works fine.


----------



## 45/70

Looking really good Eric.



mdocod said:


> Sometimes the charge current ramps up and down for the first few seconds that the cell is connected. Similar to the way the voltage seems to ramp up and down when measured open circuit.......If I had to guess, it's probably a purpose designed algorithm that the chip uses to hone in on the target charge rate......
> 
> ......When cell state of charge gets up around ~4.10V (I'll have to hunt down the exact point, but it's somewhere around here), the charger will not normally initiate a charge on the cell much like the IBC.



Not ever having owned either version of the Pila and just read about them over the years, I had forgotten that the Pila does do some sort of "battery check" before charging and that it also won't charge a nearly fully charged cell at a certain voltage limit. This likely is what's going on with the Xtar.



> The charge voltage has not reached the target destination voltage when the charge current starts to ramp down. This simple fact disqualifies the charger as having a "true"" "CC/CV" charging algorithm.


This may be true, but compared to all but one of the other "consumer type" chargers available, this is at the very least a huge improvement, and I would consider this shortcoming as being a minor issue, really. And, when considering that the cost per charging channel works out to $5 per, the Xtar is loking pretty good. 

Looking forward to any other observations you, um, observe. Nice job mdocod! :thumbsup:

Dave


----------



## Justin Case

Superorb said:


> I just read a post from one of the vendors on the specs of the Xtar charger. Notice #4 especially. Looks like it'll restart charging if the cells sit dormant in the charger long enough to drop voltage.
> 
> 
> 1. This charger can charge 6 x 14650/17670/18650/18700 batteries at the same time. It has six independent charging channels and has a three mode charging method.
> 
> 
> 
> When the voltage is below 2.9V (±2%), the charger is in trickle charge mode,
> When the voltage is 2.9V-4.1V (±1%), the charger is in constant current mode,
> When the voltage is 4.1V-4.2V (±1%), the charger is in constant voltage mode.
> This charger can monitor the status of each battery in real-time when charging. The batteries are charged intelligently and safely by monitoring the batteries status.
> 2. When the AC adaptor or car adaptor is unplugged, the charger will turn to a lower current status automatically and each channel batteries’ leakage current will be under 4uA.
> 
> 
> 3. When the battery voltage is 4.20 (±1%), the charging is complete, the current will cut off completely （ <100uA ）. But the charger will continue monitoring the batteries in each channel.
> 
> 
> 4. When the batteries’ voltage is down to 4. 05v (±1%), charging cycle starts again to keep the batteries in full charging status. When the batteries’ voltage is down to 4. 05v (±1%), charging cycle starts again to keep the batteries in full charging status. Whe n the batteries’ voltage is down to 4. 05v (±1%), charging cycle starts again to keep the batteries in full charging status.
> 
> 5. The charger manager chipset will monitor IC temperature itself, when the temperature is too high, the current will decline in order to ensure the chipset works fine.


 
The charge control chip datasheet states that the 4.20V float voltage accuracy is +/-1.5%, not +/-1.0%.

The trickle charge voltage threshold is given as 2.9V typical, 2.8V min, and 3.0V max. That is ~+/-3%.

The claimed charge termination criterion for the charging IC is not when the voltage reaches 4.20V. The datasheet claims that the termination criterion is (charge current)/10 once the float voltage has been reached.

The datasheet claims that the IC has an automatic recharge feature, but I can't find any statement as to the voltage level at which this recharge kicks in.


----------



## mdocod

45/70 said:


> Looking really good Eric.
> 
> .........
> 
> This may be true, but compared to all but one of the other "consumer type" chargers available, this is at the very least a huge improvement, and I would consider this shortcoming as being a minor issue, really. And, when considering that the cost per charging channel works out to $5 per, the Xtar is loking pretty good.
> 
> Looking forward to any other observations you, um, observe. Nice job mdocod! :thumbsup:
> 
> Dave



I agree. The charge rate change through the charge really only translates to a slower than expected charge time. Having 6 bays of charging capacity that actually do seem to terminate their charge in a correct fashion (no trickle/[email protected]) for $30 makes the charger a strong contender. We kind of knew going in having looked at the data sheet that the actual termination points probably wouldn't be super consistent from bay to bay and from charger to charger, and so far, my example has shown some deviation from bay to bay but it's not terrible. The only way to get a "feel" for the trends on termination values will be to see results from more people as they buy them. If it can hold in the 4.18-4.22V on 90% of units or better than that would be pretty reasonable. 

Eric


----------



## 45/70

mdocod said:


> ......so far, my example has shown some deviation from bay to bay but it's not terrible. The only way to get a "feel" for the trends on termination values will be to see results from more people as they buy them. If it can hold in the 4.18-4.22V on 90% of units or better than that would be pretty reasonable.



Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out in this and other threads, while the end voltage of a fully charged cell is of course important, the actual end voltage at termination is merely a byproduct of the CV voltage used. The proper termination of charge for a Li-Ion cell is determined by the point at which the charge current drops to a predetermined level during the CV stage, not by voltage. This means that cells will not always have the same voltage at charge termination. Factors such as age, temperature, exact chemical composition of the cell and so on, affect the end voltage.

Many have complained about the Pila not terminating cells at a consistant voltage. This is because it works properly, and is not a flaw. The Xtar appears to be working in a similar fashion. I suppose because of the majority of chargers out there now that improperly charge Li-Ion cells, folks have become accustomed to chargers that _always terminate charge at the same voltage_. This _is a design flaw_, and is an indication that the charger is using an improper algorithm.

Dave


----------



## Scott Packard

By the way mdocod I notice in a WF-188 review thread you said:

>There are a lot of people on CPF who have a large quantity of cells that sit in wait, as backups, charged up ready to go. A charger that would stop at 4.10V would leave these cells in a better state to be stored. Even for daily use topping up to 4.10V would increase the life of the cell dramatically. 

I thought up a cheap way you could get this behavior from this Xtar WP6 charger. Assuming you start with depleted cells you could load them into this charger, walk away for an hour, then bump the cells out of the charger and back in. If the charge light went from red to green then you're above 4.10V and could just pull them back out and put them into storage containers. If the LED stays red they aren't at 4.10V yet so maybe walk away for a half hour this time and repeat.

I don't think the cells would be balanced to work in series after using this technique, so you'd have to deal with that issue. I haven't verified what you said earlier (you said you could get cells to resume charging by cutting and resuming charger input power while cells are inserted). That would take care of balancing them prior to use.

Anyway, just a thought for those who want a hack at no additional cost.
*EDIT* Never mind. The data sheet says the chip shuts off at C/10, so what I suggest is dumb, because I'd be resetting the initial charge current repeatedly and the chip wouldn't be able to truly calculate C/10.
*end of EDIT*
Speaking of cost, I notice the list price rose to $34.99 from $29.99 before the 5% off code, now that the pre-order period is over.


Looking the other end of the attention spectrum I like this charger because a consumer could enter it with close to no knowledge of attention to detail and not have to worry about leaving cells in it for days at a time, making it a little closer to idiot-proof. Sooner or later a lot of people are going to enter the Li-Ion consumer end and will only know how to insert and remove a battery, and half of the time won't get the polarity correct.


----------



## pae77

I'm already paying enough attention to my Li-ion cells that I might as well move up to a hobby charger, as so many others have done already. 

Especially since there is an inexpensive model available (Accucel 6) that is generally well regarded and appropriate for use with the kind of cells used for flashlights and that costs about the same or slightly less (shipped) as the Xtar (not counting the power supply and other accessories such as home wired cradles that may be needed).


----------



## Sparkss

pae77 said:


> I'm already paying enough attention to my Li-ion cells that I might as well move up to a hobby charger, as so many others have done already.
> 
> Especially since there is an inexpensive model available (Accucel 6) that is generally well regarded and appropriate for use with the kind of cells used for flashlights and that costs about the same or slightly less (shipped) as the Xtar (not counting the power supply and other accessories such as home wired cradles that may be needed).



I thought that most hobby chargers (below $100) were only single channel chargers ? That is fine if you want to balance a bunch of batteries, but not if you want to charge some different sizes or types. Unless something has changed and I am mistaken ?


----------



## pae77

Yes, that's true. The one I was referring to is indeed single channel which is fine for my purposes. Multiple Li-ion cells can be parallel charged if desired and if certain precautions are observed.

And check out this thread for more specifics and photos re how a single channel can be used to charge multiple Li-ion cells: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3073396#post3073396

Also, I have other chargers I prefer to use for NiMh.


----------



## KiwiMark

Sparkss said:


> I thought that most hobby chargers (below $100) were only single channel chargers ? That is fine if you want to balance a bunch of batteries, but not if you want to charge some different sizes or types. Unless something has changed and I am mistaken ?



I figured an easy way around that - I bought 2 hobby chargers. I have one that can charge up to 6 cells and another that can charge up to 8 cells. If you consider a set of batteries to be any number from 1 to 8 then I can charge 2 sets at a time, quite often it is 2 sets of 1 but I balance charged the 5 x 26500 cells from my Mag 4D that runs a 64458 bulb and it was pretty handy to be able to charge all 5 at once. I could charge all the batteries from both 64458 flashlights at once if I wanted to, that is 5 x 26500 + 8 x 18650 IMR cells. I also have a couple of WF-139 chargers - not the best available but they can get the job done and with the 2 hobby chargers I have a total of 6 independent channels between my 4 chargers. I also have 2 x 4 channel NiCd/NiMH AA/AAA chargers because I have a heap of AA NiMH cells - that lets me charge a lot of batteries at once. When I want to get some charging done I can get a lot charged in one evening! If I just want to pull the battery out of my EDC and top it up then I use the hobby charger - I like the ability to choose the charge rate and I trust its charging algorithm, I reserve my other chargers for when I want to get too many batteries charged at once.

Of course the 6 independent channels of the Xtar charger will clearly have an advantage for some people in some situations - but my hobby chargers can charge quite fast and I can get through a lot of charging in a few hours. The Xtar charger may not be able to get as many batteries charged per hour if you could charge at a higher current on the hobby charger.

Another solution is 3 x Pila chargers = 6 independent charging channels with proven reliability. But this would be a good solution rather than a cheap one.


----------



## mdocod

45/70 said:


> This means that cells will not always have the same voltage at charge termination. Factors such as age, temperature, exact chemical composition of the cell and so on, affect the end voltage.



Absolutely,

That's why I confirmed those results by swapping cells around from bay to bay to see if it was the cells themselves causing the different termination points, or the bays. The bays are definitely "off" by about as much as shown in my test result there. The 6 cells being used are fresh from lighthound AW 17670s that just came in last week. 

Eric


----------



## 45/70

mdocod said:


> That's why I confirmed those results by swapping cells around from bay to bay to see if it was the cells themselves causing the different termination points, or the bays.



Gotcha. Just to make my previous post more clear, a cell that is charged with a CC/CV algorithm should pretty much charge to the same voltage, if charged under the same conditions each time, in a relatively short time period. This will change down the road as the cell becomes more degraded and the termination voltage will gradually become lower. Keep in mind that Li-Ion cells degrade whether they are used or not, from the day they leave the factory.

The most likely reason a particular cell may charge to an inconsistent voltage using a CC/CV algorithm, within a relatively short time period, is if either the temperature at which the cell is charged is different, or the cell is not charged from the same point of discharge each time. Both of these factors are likely to result in a slightly different termination voltage using a CC/CV algorithm.

I think it's to be expected that the Xtar is not going to charge exactly the same in each of it's slots, as they each have their own electronics. I think what you found is quite acceptable, however.

Dave


----------



## ArmyMedicDad

OK - since this thread is call a "Consumer" roundup, I was hoping to find some reviews/tests written on a consumer level. I am considering the XTAR charger but so far most of the reviews/tests are currently over my head (still trying to ramp up my knowledge here). Is it a good/great charger, is it on par with the Pila, is it a piece of junk, is it worth the purchase?

AND, why does Pila name/number their batteries different than the rest of the planet?


----------



## mdocod

Hi ArmyMedicDad,

As per the testing I have had time to do so far, I give the Xtar a passing grade. Whether it's a B or a C- I have not had a chance to complete enough testing to determine, and it will also take time to see more results from more people trying it out. 

As it would turn out, this is pretty much the only charger I have tested that is not a Pila IBC that would get a passing grade. 

As for why Pila and WOlf-Eyes use their own proprietary cell designations: I'd imagine it's partly marketing related, but also possibly liability. If you sell someone a flashlight with a fancy new battery in it, and they read the label on it when they want to buy another or replace it, they'll always be lead back to the same source if they do a search for it.

Also, back in the day when they started using these cells, they were on the frontier of the idea of using a "loose" li-ion cell that has a built in protection circuit to power a consumer device. If they called it an "18650" cell, then people might do a search for a replacement cell and find out that they can rip them from a laptop or order them from an OEM supplier or something, problem is... without the protection circuit, they aren't always going to be as safe is mis-used. So the special name designation further limits liability. In essence, a "600P" cell or an "LRB-168A" is a way within one naming convention to know that it is a certain size, protected, 3.7V li-ion cell. "18650" is nothing but a size. 

Eric


----------



## ArmyMedicDad

mdocod said:


> As it would turn out, this is pretty much the only charger I have tested that is not a Pila IBC that would get a passing grade.


That's good to know. And thanks for your prompt reply.


----------



## Monocrom

Very eye-opening. Thanks, Eric. 

I'm now very grateful I don't use rechargeable cells often.

My SoShine charger is going where it belongs . . . In the garbage can!


----------



## DHart

Monocrom said:


> Very eye-opening. Thanks, Eric.
> 
> I'm now very grateful I don't use rechargeable cells often.
> 
> My SoShine charger is going where it belongs . . . In the garbage can!



Monocrom... I'm surprised to hear that you feel that way. For myself, I think that with attention to proper handling, li-ions are the only way to go. I have set up each of my single size (AA, CR123, etc.) and double size (CR123 x 2) lights to run on a single li-ion so there are no matching issues to worry about, follow proper charging techniques, and top off early rather than late. I am a huge fan of li-ions.


----------



## pae77

DHart said:


> Monocrom... I'm surprised to hear that you feel that way. For myself, I think that with attention to proper handling, li-ions are the only way to go. I have set up each of my single size (AA, CR123, etc.) and double size (CR123 x 2) lights to run on a single li-ion so there are no matching issues to worry about, follow proper charging techniques, and top off early rather than late. I am a huge fan of li-ions.


Same here, except I am also using some pairs of Li-ions in some lights as well as single cell lights. Am totally enjoying the performance and cost benefits of using rechargeable Li-ions. I also don't mind, or actually enjoy, employing the extra care and attention that is required to safely use these batteries.

Besides, with sophisticated hobby chargers that have ample power for flashaholic needs available so cheaply these days (e.g., $25-$40 shipped), there is, imo, little or no reason to put up with the limitations of failing or barely passing grade "consumer Li-ion cradle chargers."


----------



## Monocrom

DHart said:


> Monocrom... I'm surprised to hear that you feel that way. For myself, I think that with attention to proper handling, li-ions are the only way to go. I have set up each of my single size (AA, CR123, etc.) and double size (CR123 x 2) lights to run on a single li-ion so there are no matching issues to worry about, follow proper charging techniques, and top off early rather than late. I am a huge fan of li-ions.


 
At my previous job, I had to use my lights for checking darkened, outdoor, areas. I can still recall the time my 2x18650 light suddenly shut off due to the protection kicking in on the AW 18650 cells I was using. I simply pulled out another light, and finished up. Still, it was a heck of a feeling when the light suddenly shut off; leaving me in complete darkness for just a moment until I pulled out my back-up light. At a construction site, that's more than just annoying. I got hurt a couple of times at that place. Thankfully, no serious injuries; and none flashlight related. 

I mainly used primary CR123 cells after that incident. Honestly, I never felt any guilt over using those lumens. My safety was on the line.

*Edit ~*

I would like to point out that I use AA and AAA rechargeable cells more often than my 17670 and 18500 cells. I also own several lights that run off of rechargeables. I'm never selling my Leef-bodied M4. Never selling my Leef-bodied 9P either. I also have battery-carriers, and Lumens Factory HO-M6R lamps that allow me to convert my M6 into a rechargeable light.

I know I don't have to bring that up to convince you that I'm not some sort of enviornmentally unconscious jerk. But newer members seeing my above post might think otherwise. I had that old job for longer than awhile. Primaries just made more sense at that job site.


----------



## DHart

Hey buddy, I totally respect that you are choosing to use the powering sources that makes the most sense for you and your specific needs. I know that for some applications, primaries may well be the best choice. And certainly, you are waaaay more than enough of a fully seasoned flashaholic to know what's best your your flashlight needs. What you said just surprised me because I am so very happy with li-ions for my needs and I didn't expect to hear that coming from you! 



Monocrom said:


> At my previous job, I had to use my lights for checking darkened, outdoor, areas. I can still recall the time my 2x18650 light suddenly shut off due to the protection kicking in on the AW 18650 cells I was using. I simply pulled out another light, and finished up. Still, it was a heck of a feeling when the light suddenly shut off; leaving me in complete darkness for just a moment until I pulled out my back-up light. At a construction site, that's more than just annoying. I got hurt a couple of times at that place. Thankfully, no serious injuries; and none flashlight related.
> 
> I mainly used primary CR123 cells after that incident. Honestly, I never felt any guilt over using those lumens. My safety was on the line.
> 
> *Edit ~*
> 
> I would like to point out that I use AA and AAA rechargeable cells more often than my 17670 and 18500 cells. I also own more several lights that run off of rechargeables. I'm never selling my Leef-bodied M4. Never selling my Leef-bodied 9P either. I also have battery-carriers, and Lumens Factory HO-M6R lamps that allow me to convert my M6 into a rechargeable light.
> 
> I know I don't have to bring that up to convince you that I'm not some sort of enviornmentally unconscious jerk. But newer members seeing my above post might thing otherwise. I had that old job for longer than awhile. Primaries just made more sense at that job site.


----------



## Monocrom

I'll likely pick up a Pila IBC charger in the near future. Under some situations, primaries are more pragmatic. Key word being "some."

Thankfully, I don't have to worry about an unfortunate misunderstanding between us.


----------



## Superorb

^^ There are flashlights/dropins that will drop to the next mode if cells are becoming depleted. That usually can buy you an extra 20min+ to find more cells.

I normally keep a watertight battery case with 2x18650 cells in all our cars mostly because when we go snowboarding it's too cold for anything alkaline to work, and I don't have any lights that will work above ~4.2v.


----------



## MiniLux

Hi, 

first, I'm not an expert whatsoever in battery handling, just trying to do my best and didn't have any incident with Li-Ion's up till now :tinfoil:

I got three of these XTAR WP6 chargers and have passed now two days charging/topping up my 18650 cells collection (about a hundred, AW, WOW, Soshine, Panasonic, Tenergy, KD, TrustFire, UltraFire, aso).

A few things I noticed:

* beware: the magnetic rare earth spacers do break easily ... well, nothing new, and I do have many others to replace them 

* when putting in one more cell in a charger while it is already charging other cell(s), it often happens that it will 'lose' somehow control over one or more of the already charging cells, which will make the corresponding LED(s) go suddenly green 
Thus, the best way to go seems to be to disconnect the charger, put in all the batteries to be charged/topped, and to reconnect the charger 

* the chargers don't show a difference if putting in a fully charged cell ... or a dead one: the LED just stays green; I found a few older cells where my ZTS wasn't able to diagnose about the charging status, while testing the cell's voltage did show well above 3.7V :sigh:

* the green LED's - as well for empty bays, as for those with 'charged' batteries - are constantly flickering to orange for a very brief time; it seems to me that this indicates the charging chip is checking for connection/charge status?

* one of my three chargers has a bay on which the LED does constantly remain on that orange status as long as the bay is empty ... maybe a broken chip? :thinking:

MiniLux


----------



## DHart

MiniLux said:


> I got three of these charges and have passed now two days charging/topping up my 18650 cells collection *(about a hundred*, AW, WOW, Soshine, Panasonic, Tenergy, KD, TrustFire, UltraFire, aso).



Wow... you, sir, are most definitely a POWER USER!


----------



## MiniLux

DHart said:


> Wow... you, sir, are most definitely a POWER USER!



Nah, just some humble flashaholic constantly trying to get the newest and best ones on flashlights and on batteries 

MiniLux


----------



## Quension

MiniLux said:


> I got three of these charges



Great post, just one minor little question... 

 _Which_ charger?


----------



## MiniLux

Quension said:


> Great post, just one minor little question...
> 
> _Which_ charger?



 ... sorry, included the charger's name in my original post now.

I was of course relating to the presently ongoing XTAR WP6 charger discussion 

MiniLux


----------



## Superorb

DHart said:


> Wow... you, sir, are most definitely a POWER USER!


Just look at all the gear in his sig


----------



## TooManyGizmos

~

At least Monocrom always had the awareness to carry a "Back-up" light .

Now I'll bet he even carry's a 3rd back-up light .

Much better than just having back-up batteries on you . Another light is an Immediate light back-up , and allows you to see to change the cells in the other dead light .

And you never know when someone else around you may need your second backup light .... to help , while you still have your 3rd back-up light for yourself.

I consider 3 lights .... the minimum.
Along with replacement cells too .

~

( and a good knife )...... (maybe two) ..... NOW back to the Charger cradle topic .


----------



## guiri

Eric, where does this leave me then?
Just get a Pila and be done with it?

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3488970#post3488970 (#61)

Thanks

George


----------



## TooManyGizmos

~

guiri .......

Why not just get BOTH . ( the traditional CPF answer )

Then most all your charging needs are met.

~


----------



## guiri

Why? Does the pila not do everything the xtar does (less the two bay difference)?


----------



## Monocrom

TooManyGizmos said:


> At least Monocrom always had the awareness to carry a "Back-up" light .
> 
> Now I'll bet he even carries a 3rd back-up light .


 
You would be correct. :thumbsup:


----------



## skoor

I ordered both a Pila and WP6 for a shootout. Novice to Li-ion batteries, but have done a lot of research. Long tern user of AA Endloops and have Maha 9000 charger, so this is hobby. Aren't we all nuts? Get a life. Its just a battery. LOL.

Just a quick summary below, if thread shows much interest, I can detail on my testing methodology/etc. But all batteries were new.

Observations:

Bottom line: Not unexpected, I guess, but the Pila charger is everything all the threads and its long history shows- excellent. Could not trip it up nor any QC issues. Only concern is all web sites show a different charger. The Pila one that ships now is only 2000mA and not Ul rated. Only CE. I would have preferred both. Guess is lower output is less heat, but slower- right? A reasonable trade-off for me. And the WP6 charger has no CE or UL rating. Sound like a pending fight with your fire damage insurance agent to me. Exposure at best vs having some rating on a known technology that has risk.

I am going with the PILA and a hobby charger- TBD, but leaning toward an icharger 106B+. I have already asked SBFLASHLIGHT for an RMA. Just not worth the small dollar difference for the risk and lack of confidence in a charger just to have 5 more bays.

Concerns of WP6 -several, one positive. 

1) Minor QC issue, some rubber feet missing. Minor, but sloppy. Just noted.

2) Indication of missed termination on shallow depth recharge. Deep was fine with termination. On shallow, LED stayed RED for hours, but no heat indicating over serious charging. Finally took battery off charger and immediately put it back on WP6 and Pila-both Green LEDs. Strong indication of missed termination. Just a guess, however.

3) Indication of floating voltage. TBD. Note: 8/14/10. Original post, I thought I had seen a voltage rise. Ran test again, detected no rise this time. My meter does read higher voltage until it settles done. I guess I just did not wait or make good contacts. I am still suspicious over prove Pila and will run this test over longer post charge period. I suspect some will not see this as an issue, since on any charger one should get the batteries off ASAP after charge. But things happen and easy to comes back days later and still see them setting there cooking. And my Lupine Charge one claims you can leave the batteries on indefinitely.

4) Positive for me, YMMV, I like things to run cool. It uses total less watts then Pila at deep charge, so it runs much cooler on all charge levels. Just should be slower for deep charge.

Vendor observation. Both SBFLASHLIGHTS and FLASHLIGHTZ shipped very fast and without issue. 

However, Flashlihgtz has a total satisfaction. Unfortunately, I did not check SBFLASHLIGHT''s return policy. They have none on website- under construction. WTx? Sent email asking for RMA, but just got question on why. Not good sigh, but they still might accept return. Definitely not your BB or Amazon return policy. If I have to eat it, just learn something and move on, I guess, since I knew the risk was low just because of the low price.

It will be interesting if others see any of my issues or concerns. I could be totally off base. However, I would still say jsut go with the proven PILA and save the hassle/risks unless you need 6 bays, since it might miss termination and still TBD if true cc/cv.


----------



## TooManyGizmos

~

guiry ,

Just trying to carry on the CPF tradition .... that's all .

~


----------



## guiri

Oh, I know, just messin' with ya but I still want to buy just one if I can...the Pila?


----------



## TooManyGizmos

~

Actually ..... since you are accumulating batteries of various sizes and multiple needs .......

all kidding aside ..... maybe you should wait for the Xtar WP6 ... for versatility .

The Pila only does 2 .

The tests are not concluded . How long can you wait ?

~


----------



## guiri

I'm not in a hurry. I can do single chargers for now


----------



## pae77

Why not an inexpensive hobby charger? For example, one can get an Accucell 6 for about $35 to $39 shipped and they can charge everything, or almost everything. Or I saw a reference someone posted the other day to a Bantam 6 on ebay for about $25 shipped.

The Accucell 6 is very solidly built with a substantial aluminum case (much nicer than a plastic cradle charger, imo) and is much smaller/compact than the online photos make them appear.

A little more complicated to operate but not difficult at all, imo. And, among other things, you get the ability to set any charge current from .1 amps to 5 amps, a true CC/CV algorithm (for Li-ions), ability to handle multiple chemistries/battery types, and so on. Truly more versatile, imo, than any of the consumer cradle chargers. It used to be that they were relatively expensive but that is not necessarily so at the present time. Many of them come with a good selection of cables.

Most of them require a separate appropriate DC power supply. I'm using an old IBM 16 volt 4.5 amp laptop adapter or power "brick" I happened to have that's working great and plugs right in to the Accucell's power input jack with no modification required. Another option is to use a power supply from an old desktop PC which can usually be found for free or very little cost.


----------



## TooManyGizmos

~

Uhmmmm ..... re-read the thread .


He wants it to be SIMPLE .


That's what he said .

~


----------



## pae77

Imo, it is simple. You just need to be able to decide what current you want to charge a given cell at. Not too difficult, really to figure out what .5 or 1 C (or whatever you want to charge at) is and punch it in.


----------



## guiri

I do want simple but then, I want to be able to eat it and still have it...I LIKE the idea of the hobby chargers but now I'm stuck figuring out how to plug up the batteries to it, make a bunch of cables, magnets or whatever...

All this just to charge a couple of batteries. I understand that you get more out of them that way but dammit, not sure if I care or not.
On the other hand, I like the idea of being able to charge everything AND maybe getting rid of all the other chargers...

Yeah, I can see toomanygizmos now, sitting there giggling going...I knew it, he's going to buy more than one charger...shame on you!


----------



## TooManyGizmos

~

Yeah ... we know ... but his "Imo" and your "Imo" ..... don't agree ..... "IMO" .

~

Edit .... nevermind ..... guiri beat me to it . (you go to bed - and get back up alot)


----------



## KiwiMark

pae77 said:


> Imo, it is simple. You just need to be able to decide what current you want to charge a given cell at. Not too difficult, really to figure out what .5 or 1 C (or whatever you want to charge at) is and punch it in.



Personally I would consider chargers like the Accucell to be a little more complicated to use than something like the Pila because there are settings you can choose. But once you use the Accucell a few times it really isn't that hard, the more familiar you get with it the easier it is to use.

I'd recommend the Pila for a dead simple charger that a whole bunch of CPFers have stated is good quality and reliable. But I'd recommend the Accucell for the versatility and the option to charge at whatever rate you like. I think that anyone of reasonable intelligence could get the hang of using a hobby charger quickly enough.


----------



## TooManyGizmos

~

KiWiMark .

Agreed ....as long as you know how to set it right the first few times ... without a mis-hap .

Some may not have 1C knowledge ... and such .

~


----------



## TooManyGizmos

~

I'm sorry .... lets get back on topic of the Xtar WP6 charger and other cradle chargers.

Sorry if I went off topic.

~


----------



## Sparkss

guiri said:


> Why? Does the pila not do everything the xtar does (less the two bay difference)?



Don't you mean 4 bay difference ? Xtar = 6 bays, Pila = 2 bays.


----------



## skoor

pae77 said:


> Why not an inexpensive hobby charger? For example, one can get an Accucell 6 for about $35 to $39 shipped and they can charge everything, or almost everything. relatively expensive .


 
I agree even the WP6 looks expensive compared to the functionally and quality of an Accucell. I guess just convenience and packaging of ready to go/all-in-one product vs having to build something and its more moving parts/wires. And some hobby charger even have an ac/dc ps, so it is just a few wires with holders separate. And for li-ion, seperate is good, you can put the battery in a safety bag. If you do that with a consumer charger, you don't see what is going on and risk overheating too.

But something seems really off. Some of the $100 or under hobby chargers are amazing in their functionally, charging options/flexibility, /read-outs, certifications, overcharge protections and reporting options vs just a blinking red or green led consumer charger that may or may not even do CC/CV right.


----------



## Scott Packard

The XTAR didn't miss a termination, in my opinion. If you have a battery that's close to 4.10V and insert it the XTAR's LED will turn solid green (i.e. not charging). You can get around that by putting the cell in, unplugging the power to the charger, and plugging it in again. <mdocod> mentioned that in his review earlier, and I've verified it on mine. I'm not sure what the minimum voltage is for a red LED.

I recently bought 30 used Samsung ICR18650-26, charged up 6 but had an 8 hour SCE power outage followed by me leaving and coming back from work, during the charge process. All LEDs were green when I returned. I measured them all, and I had two cells that were low compared to the other four (4.0696V and 4.0948V). I tried reinserting these but the LEDs stayed green. Also, this is supposed to have CC/CV ICs in it so why be too concerned by different term. voltages.

I ran them in flashlights for a few hours then recharged them. The 4.0696 cell went to 4.1266V this time and the 4.0898V cell went to 4.1466V.

I know I haven't done <mdocod>-style consistent testing, but maybe what I have done will be useful to someone who wonders how this charger will perform if the power flakes out on them while they're away.


----------



## skoor

Scott Packard said:


> The XTAR didn't miss a termination, in my opinion. If you have a battery that's close to 4.10V and insert it the XTAR's LED will turn solid green (i.e. not charging).
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, what you defined is to me a positive feature of any charger. I would rather it not try to charge an almost fully charged battery, but stay green at that voltage. Both the Pila and WP6 do that well.
> 
> Unfortunately, what you described is not my "missed terrmination" situation. My WP6 just never terminated the red charge led light from an about 30% discharged battery for hours. Yep, hours from a pretty typical shallow 30% discharge cycle. It should have been in minutes not hours.
> 
> So the battery went into the charger with a red led as it should at 30% discharge. It just NEVER turned green as it should even after hours or this is one heck of a slow charger.
> 
> So to see if the WP is the really that slow, I checked the voltage, it was 4.2V. Hmm, it seemed charged, but why did the red led never go off? Only two choices, either charger was just not charging or it missed the termination. 4.2V strongly implies missed termination. As noted, it was definitely charging, since the battery was at 30% and now it shows full 4.2V.
> 
> Clearly something is off. For me, pretty clear. Return the WP6 and stick with the proven Pila- just to reduce risk. The Pila passed all charge cycles with flying colors. The WP6 just stumbled with the charge cycle above running for hours with still a RED charging led. If this was not a Li-on charger, it might be acceptable ever now and then. But I don't like bombs in the house especially with glowing red leds. LOL.
> 
> But hey, to each his own and comfortably factor. I don't plan to hover over a charger or have to set external AC timers to be safe for missed termination. Heck, if I want safety, the hobby chargers do it all- cutoff times, charge capacity, temp and even some over-voltage.
> 
> But for me, the Pila is an everyday no-brainer, reliable, good enough, just stick it in and forget daily charger. And if I really forget, no damage is likely to be done to the charger, battery or me. This forum has shown that. The WP6 really adds nothing but risk for another 4 bays and slightly lower cost. And the Pila does have its CE certifications on both the charger and wall wart- the WP6 does not.
> 
> If the Pila every does something like the WP6 did, it too will just go in the trash. But it has been out for years. I suspect they have got all the voltages/cutoffs pretty fine tuned by now.
> 
> Now just need to get the RMA from the vendor. Still waiting...
Click to expand...


----------



## guiri

Sparkss said:


> Don't you mean 4 bay difference ? Xtar = 6 bays, Pila = 2 bays.



Damn, I thought Pila had FOUR bays, even worse then.


----------



## guiri

Well, for my use at least, I think Gizmos hit it right on the head with the IMO...

What you guys consider simple, I consider complicated, hard, pain in the butt, etc, and ultimately, that leads to NOT using something


----------



## Monocrom

guiri said:


> Damn, I thought Pila had FOUR bays, even worse then.


 
No, not really.

Keep in mind that the Pila IBC has two major advantages over the Xtar WR6.

1) A proven record of reliability. The Pila has been around longer. Testing is important. But not nearly as valuable as having a proven record among many owners.

2) It has been mainly skipped over, but the fact remains that Xtar does NOT have a reputation for making quality products. They're known for making products to a price point, a very low one at that. Is it likely they'll make a high quality product? I doubt it. And these types of cells are not something where you want to compromise on that.


----------



## guiri

Well, now that you mention it, I just slept awhile and I had a dream. Yes, I'm serious.

It was weird but it had something to do with drilling into batteries (Li-Ion's) and them catching on fire and a whole bunch of stuff catching on fire 

So yeah, I guess with these batteries it's important but getting a charger that only does two batteries and only two kinds, for me that's a bit of a step backwards. Hell, the hobby option is better than, even if it'll look all ghetto 'n stuff which I hate by the way.


----------



## Quension

guiri said:


> [...] getting a charger that only does two batteries and only two kinds, for me that's a bit of a step backwards. Hell, the hobby option is better than, even if it'll look all ghetto 'n stuff which I hate by the way.



You said you wanted simple, and a charger that does specific things and does them well is a good thing.

With a hobby charger the risk of a mistake is much higher, just because of the increased number of things you have to keep track of.


----------



## Monocrom

guiri said:


> Well, now that you mention it, I just slept awhile and I had a dream. Yes, I'm serious.
> 
> It was weird but it had something to do with drilling into batteries (Li-Ion's) and them catching on fire and a whole bunch of stuff catching on fire
> 
> So yeah, I guess with these batteries it's important but getting a charger that only does two batteries and only two kinds, for me that's a bit of a step backwards. Hell, the hobby option is better than, even if it'll look all ghetto 'n stuff which I hate by the way.


 
Maybe it was more than just a dream. The Pila is simple to use. Hobby charger, you have to know exactly what they're doing.

If you don't, you're indeed likely to set everything on fire.


----------



## guiri

Quension said:


> You said you wanted simple, and a charger that does specific things and does them well is a good thing.
> 
> With a hobby charger the risk of a mistake is much higher, just because of the increased number of things you have to keep track of.



Yep and that's the point I was trying to make to those who think I could handle it. I'm not sure I could. I LOVE the idea but not sure I wouldn't screw it up.


----------



## guiri

Monocrom said:


> Maybe it was more than just a dream. The Pila is simple to use. Hobby charger, you have to know exactly what they're doing.
> 
> If you don't, you're indeed likely to set everything on fire.



First of all, just in case we tick someone off. IF this is NOT a discussion for this thread, let me know and I'll continue it in my battery thread.

Second, yeah, exactly, I don't want to do something stupid. I would really like to be able to set and forget but damn, two batteries. I might as well stick with my cheapo single li ion chargers or they're not good enough...?


----------



## Monocrom

guiri said:


> I might as well stick with my cheapo single li ion chargers or they're not good enough...?


 
mdocod could tell you if they're any good.


----------



## KiwiMark

guiri said:


> First of all, just in case we tick someone off. IF this is NOT a discussion for this thread, let me know and I'll continue it in my battery thread.
> 
> Second, yeah, exactly, I don't want to do something stupid. I would really like to be able to set and forget but damn, two batteries. I might as well stick with my cheapo single li ion chargers or they're not good enough...?



The hobby chargers are definitely the better product - but they are more complex and you need to be willing to learn how to navigate the menus to change settings and to learn what settings you should be using. This isn't hard to learn, but you have to be willing to 'muck around' with the settings.

It sounds like you don't really want to go to that much trouble, you want to insert a battery into a charger and have the charger do the job correctly with no input from you.

My suggestion is to spend a bit more (easy for me to suggest, it isn't my money) and get a Pila charger or if you don't mind spending more money then get the 4 battery version - 2 Pila chargers. The Xtar charger is cheaper - therefore probably not of the same quality, better to spend more and only spend once then to buy cheap then decide you want better quality and buy again.

The Pila charger should be good for 14500, 16340, 18650 and the less common in between sizes (17500, 18500, 18340) in LiCo & LiMn chemistries (IMR & ICR). You wont be able to get a more versatile charger without getting more complicated, so unless you want to learn how to set a hobby charger you shouldn't worry about that.


----------



## guiri

Nah, I have enough money for a Pila, no probs there but will it do a RCR123 or I have to do spacers?
===============
Monocrom, I'd have to find out what chargers I"m using. I bought some single ones but have to find out where I got'em. Thanks.


----------



## Monocrom

guiri said:


> Monocrom, I'd have to find out what chargers I"m using. I bought some single ones but have to find out where I got'em. Thanks.


 
There's no name or model number written on them? :thinking:


----------



## guiri

There is but my chinese is a little rusty 

Anyway, I tracked it down and here's what I have... http://www.shenzhen-wholesale.com/huangao-hg103w9v-universal-rechargeable-battery-charger_p874.html

Got the info from this thread of mine https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/263531&highlight=charger


----------



## KiwiMark

guiri said:


> Nah, I have enough money for a Pila, no probs there but will it do a RCR123 or I have to do spacers?



It should be fine for RCR123 (aka 16340) I would assume the spacers AW sells should work fine - someone with a Pila charger should be able to confirm.


----------



## guiri

So, do you guys think there would be a market for a hobby charger with different battery adapters you can connect?


----------



## Superorb

guiri said:


> So, do you guys think there would be a market for a hobby charger with different battery adapters you can connect?


I think there is a market for hobby chargers, and I think there's a market for charging cradles that easily hookup to a hobby charger. Pretty niche market though.


----------



## guiri

So, when you get a hobby charger, how many batteries can you hook up to a charger and how does it know, WHICH is which so to speak, IF it has to charge each cell individually? Do they have different ports for each battery or what?


----------



## pae77

guiri said:


> So, do you guys think there would be a market for a hobby charger with different battery adapters you can connect?


Well I would be interested in such or the magnets leads, probably leaning towards the latter. I'm going to try to make some of my own for single cells and parallel charging pairs of cells, which will take care of my needs at the moment.

For the time being, I'm just using my new hobby charger (Accucell 6) with its stock charging cable, which actually is quite nicely and safely designed with male and female XT60 connectors separating the charger end (with its banana or bullet plugs) from the battery end (which has alligator clips). The XT60 connectors make it very safe because one can permanently leave the banana plugs attached to the charger's output jacks and just very safely connect the XT60 connectors after the battery end has been carefully hooked up to the battery, thus really minimizing any danger of inadvertently shorting the battery and damaging the battery or the charger. 

For now, I'm just using some rare earth magnets I had on hand with the alligator clips on the stock cable to attach to the positive and negative ends of one Li-ion cell at a time. It's working great, but down the road I want to be able to charge more than one cell at a time and also have a slightly more robust connection than clipping directly to my loose magnets. It would be great if there was a selection of various premade connection options for us cylindrical cell users available for purchase (especially if it was at fairly reasonable prices ).


----------



## guiri

Yeah but how do you connect more than ONE battery to it and, as it not supposed to charge each battery individually like the cradle chargers with it's different channels?

How does a hobby charger accomplish this?


----------



## KiwiMark

guiri said:


> Yeah but how do you connect more than ONE battery to it and, as it not supposed to charge each battery individually like the cradle chargers with it's different channels?
> 
> How does a hobby charger accomplish this?



One lead goes to the negative of battery 1 (held on by a magnet works fine), battery 1 positive can be held on to battery 2 negative with a magnet, positive lead can then be held on to the positive of battery 2 with a magnet. Viola - 2 batteries can be charged at the same time.

Of course you can then get fancy and connect wires from the balance connector to the -ve of 1, +ve of 1/-ve of 2 & +ve of 2 (three wires). This way the charger can ensure that both the cells reach 4.2V instead of one being 4.25 and the other being 4.15.

The same method can be used to charge up to 6 cells at once. If you are charging NiMH or NiCD cells then you don't need balance leads.

All the cells you are charging at one time need to be the same cells at roughly the same state of charge. Otherwise you just charge 1 lot and then when that is finished you charge the next lot.

Magnets are cheap and will stick to both the cells being charged and to the alligator clips on the standard charging lead that comes with the charger.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.13518


----------



## guiri

No, I understand that part but I always thought that EACH battery was charged separately and NOT like here... https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/241266

THIS is what you're doing, right?

Now, on my LaCrosse charger or Maha or something, it has 4 bays and each has a display so each is charged and monitored INDIVIDUALLY, right?

It seems that the hobby charger does not and if not, why is it better than a bay charger? I thought you had to monitor each battery separately as they tend to behave or degrade differently?

I guess not from what you wrote above..


----------



## skoor

Superorb said:


> I think there is a market for hobby chargers, and I think there's a market for charging cradles that easily hookup to a hobby charger. Pretty niche market though.


 
Same here, I wish it was a bigger niche. I called a couple of local hobby stores and most did not even know that your could buy protected 18650s or flashlights like Quarks w/18650 tubes existed. 

Thanks to forums like this, it is pretty easy to narrow down a few good options. With the risk of Li-ion mostly limited to the charging phase, I am going now for tested, long term proven solutions with lots of positive feedback. 

I went ahead and ordered an Accucel 6 with 12v adapter and will just use the magnets. Even with shipping, it will be about the same as the Pila- a pretty amazing value.


----------



## KiwiMark

guiri said:


> No, I understand that part but I always thought that EACH battery was charged separately and NOT like here... https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/241266
> 
> THIS is what you're doing, right?



Yep, that's the way I do it.



guiri said:


> Now, on my LaCrosse charger or Maha or something, it has 4 bays and each has a display so each is charged and monitored INDIVIDUALLY, right?



Yep, those have 4 completely individual channels, which is different to the hobby chargers.



guiri said:


> It seems that the hobby charger does not and if not, why is it better than a bay charger? I thought you had to monitor each battery separately as they tend to behave or degrade differently?



The hobby chargers are a bit different - they don't have several independent channels. However in the case of the Accucell 6:
It has the ability to set a charge rate like 0.1 to 6.0A in 0.1A increments.
It can also charge 1 - 6 Lithium Ion cells.
It can charge 1-15 NiCd or NiMh cells.
It can charge Li-ion cells to 4.2, 4.1 or 3.6 volts to cover several different chemistries.

My LaCrosse charger can charge 4 NiMH or NiCd cells of AAA or AA size, but it can't charge Li-ion cells or Lead acid cells. It can't charge at 6 amps or at 0.1 amps. Buy an 18650 Li-ion or RCR123 cell and the LaCrosse or Maha chargers are not going to be much use. But the hobby charger can charge almost anything.

I have 2 LaCrosse chargers so I can charge plenty of AA or AAA cells at once. But I have a bunch of different Li-ion cells from little AAA sized ones to D sized ones - with capacities from 180mAh to 5000mAh. I also have some NiMH D cells with 10,000mAh capacity - my LaCrosse chargers aren't designed for that size or capacity, but my hobby chargers can charge all 4 at once at 2 or 3 amps and have them charged in a reasonable time.

Cradle chargers - multiple independent channels, super simple to use.
Hobby chargers - extremely versatile, lots of control over settings.
They have different pros & cons - the trick is deciding what suits your needs.


----------



## kaptain_zero

KiwiMark said:


> It can charge 1-15 NiCd or NiMh cells.



Only as long as you are willing to charge such cells in series with the issues that raises (cells should be matched and discharged to the same level). The balancing feature cannot be use on NiCD or NiMh cells as far as I know. 

There are a few Hobby Chargers that have more than one charging channel so you can charge 3 or 4 NiHh cells individually but they are not exactly cheap. 

Regards

Christian


----------



## pae77

kaptain_zero said:


> Only as long as you are willing to charge such cells in series with the issues that raises (cells should be matched and discharged to the same level). The balancing feature cannot be use on NiCD or NiMh cells as far as I know.
> 
> . . .


Good point. Personally, I don't intend to use my Accucell for NiMh/NiCD unless I have to, (although it's nice to have that capability). I intend to continue to use my Maha C9000 for my AA/AAA Eneloops. Too bad there wasn't an equivalent to the C9000 (with adjustable charge rates and fully independent cradles along with an informative display) for Li-ion. That would be what most of us would really like to see. 

The moderately priced single channel hobby chargers are the next best thing, imo. Fortunately, single channel is not such a terrible limitation for Li-ion cells, especially since one can either use the included balancing option for charging several cells at a time in series; or, if my understanding is correct, Li-ion cells can self balance if more than one cell at a time is charged in parallel (assuming the cells SOC starts out not too far apart). I can live/work with that.


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## TooManyGizmos

~ 

This sure has gone OFF TOPIC from "self contained" - "cradle" chargers in post 1 .

Maybe "mdocod" the O.P. would prefer we take wired "hobby charger" discussion to other threads ?

"guiri" has a Battery thread that this "hobby" charger discussion can go back into , where it started.

This Thread ... needs to get back to the original posters intent .

~


----------



## Black Rose

Yep, let's get back to the cradle chargers and whether they are worthy or not.


----------



## guiri

Yes, here it is guys https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/284644

I'll ask my follow up question in there...


----------



## KiwiMark

TooManyGizmos said:


> ~
> 
> This sure has gone OFF TOPIC from "self contained" - "cradle" chargers in post 1 .
> 
> Maybe "mdocod" the O.P. would prefer we take wired "hobby charger" discussion to other threads ?
> 
> This Thread ... needs to get back to the original posters intent .



Well, I agree and I don't. If this thread is only about cradle chargers and how they compare to each others then hobby chargers don't really belong here. But if this thread is about cradle chargers and includes how they compare to other types of chargers then hobby chargers would be a logical part of the discussion. Some readers of this thread may well be curious about cradle chargers and what alternatives there are to them.

Surely this isn't like a sales thread where it is impolite to suggest a competitors product - there is good information to be had in this thread for flashaholics that want to know more about chargers & charging.

On the subject of cradle chargers:
One thing I WOULD like to see in a cradle charger is a settable charge rate (like on the LaCrosse chargers) and maybe even NiMH & Li-ion settings. Essentially like a hobby charger but 4 independent channels and a spring loaded sliding contact that can accommodate a fairly large range of cell sizes. Now THAT would be a product that I would be interested in.


----------



## guiri

KiwiMark said:


> Yep, that's the way I do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, those have 4 completely individual channels, which is different to the hobby chargers.
> 
> 
> 
> The hobby chargers are a bit different - they don't have several independent channels. However in the case of the Accucell 6:
> It has the ability to set a charge rate like 0.1 to 6.0A in 0.1A increments.
> It can also charge 1 - 6 Lithium Ion cells.
> It can charge 1-15 NiCd or NiMh cells.
> It can charge Li-ion cells to 4.2, 4.1 or 3.6 volts to cover several different chemistries.
> 
> My LaCrosse charger can charge 4 NiMH or NiCd cells of AAA or AA size, but it can't charge Li-ion cells or Lead acid cells. It can't charge at 6 amps or at 0.1 amps. Buy an 18650 Li-ion or RCR123 cell and the LaCrosse or Maha chargers are not going to be much use. But the hobby charger can charge almost anything.
> 
> I have 2 LaCrosse chargers so I can charge plenty of AA or AAA cells at once. But I have a bunch of different Li-ion cells from little AAA sized ones to D sized ones - with capacities from 180mAh to 5000mAh. I also have some NiMH D cells with 10,000mAh capacity - my LaCrosse chargers aren't designed for that size or capacity, but my hobby chargers can charge all 4 at once at 2 or 3 amps and have them charged in a reasonable time.
> 
> Cradle chargers - multiple independent channels, super simple to use.
> Hobby chargers - extremely versatile, lots of control over settings.
> They have different pros & cons - the trick is deciding what suits your needs.



Alright, so in reply to this..I still don't quite understand. Do you NEED to charge each cell individually or not? From what I read here, apparently not....or? 

So, I will leave this in the hands of the OP to say whether we should move it or not...

George


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## mdocod

This is going a little off topic here....

I have no problem with anyone pointing out that hobby chargers may offer a good alternative to cradle chargers for many users here in this thread. However, I think TooManyGizmos hit it on the head. Discussion regarding the implementation of those chargers is going to create too much clutter for the context of the thread.

It's not always easy to stay on track, I'm guilty myself. If I may kindly ask that those participating in this thread make an effort to steer back to the original course I would very much appreciate it. 

Thank You,
Eric


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## guiri

Yessir!


----------



## skoor

Update on WP6, apparently it does not miss termination- at least technically. It just has some really quirky behavior that 'looks" like a missed termination or hides it via some internal, unspecified safety timer cutoff.

Wanting to see if I could duplicate the issue in prior post of the really long charge cycle that never terminated before I pulled the battery, I took two fully charged 18650 batteries and ran them for 8 minutes in my Quark XPG turbo on max. The discharge was enough to get both the Pila and WP6 to go in to "red " charge mode. The Pila went green in about 20 minutes or so. This was pretty much as expected. The WP6 after two hours was still red. I just gave up and went to bed. 

Actually I was also watching a KILL-A-WATT meter as a crude proxy for current on the WP6, so not quite as risky as it might seemed to leave unattended. As a baseline, both the Pila and WP6 show about 2 watts as idle with no batteries. The WP6 had gone to 4/5 watts (its CC phase) for about 15/25 minutes or so and then slowly went to 2 watts for it CV current decay tail for hours. That was when I went to bed assuming it was at most just a few ma of current. At some point of 2+hours for a very shallow charge cycle, it finally went green. Finally. The resting voltage was less that 4.2V, so it apparently did no obvious damage.

It just has what seems to to go to a very elongated exponential CV phase. It must be a really drawn out phase before it hits its current cutoff or some internal timer "pops" implicitly for safety cutoff. I suspect the later. If true, that is a missed termination with no error indication. Worst of the worst.

Either way something is not right.

I don't trust it and have requested again a RMA again from vendor. Just get the Pila for a consumer grade cradle charger. Did someone say 'guilty until proven innocence."

Note: Just by the wattage in the CC phase, the Pila seems to be faster charger over the WP6. The Pila goes to 7 max on the watt for CC, the WP6 most of the time shows 4, sometimes 5 watts. True, crude, but still some indication: For Pila (7-2)= 5 watts of CC. For WP6 (4-2)=2 or even rounding up only 3 vs the 5 for Pila. The battery/charger heat is also a secondary indication of more power being used with the Pila.


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## guiri

Alrighty then, Pila it is


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## skoor

guiri said:


> Alrighty then, Pila it is


 
Or as WikiMark has so well stated, you can justify both- right  I have an icharger 106B+ with small PS on the way for controls/flexibility/testing/etc. I suspect the Pila will still get a lot use.


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## guiri

Yeah but I think I'm good with the Pila. Thanks all and sorry for hijacking the thread so much..


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## KiwiMark

skoor said:


> Or as WikiMark has so well stated, you can justify both- right



Definitely both is good, but only after getting the Pila charger now and then later on deciding to get the hobby charger. I really think this is a situation where buying the Pila now and seeing how things go makes a lot of sense. Later on guiri may find that the Pila is all that he needs and he is happy to stick with that. Of course he may decide he needs a 2nd Pila charger to charge 4 cells at once or he may buy some LiFePO4 cells and need a charger that can charger to 3.6V. As you state, even buying another charger later to fill a need doesn't mean the Pila wont still be useful.


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## pae77

Sounds like the Pila is the way to go for Guiri.

As for me, I'm totally happy with the Accucell and find it a breeze to operate because it is well designed and remembers the last used program and settings and powers up right into those settings the next time the charger is used. So if one is always charging Li-Po's as I am, it's very simple and easy. The only thing I may have to adjust is the charge current to match the capacity of the cell(s) I'm charging. And being able to charge my LiPo's at 1C is quite a time saver. My only regret is not getting one of these sooner.


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## guiri

I'm gonna end my and the suffering of others. I'm going with a Pila...!


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## skoor

My WP6 is clearly not functioning correctly. Just got two cheap 18650 batteries from DX- Trustfire 2400 protected. Checked the voltage and seemed about the same- around 3.85V. Willing to play with a cheaper battery, I put one in the Pila and other in WP6. After 2 -3 hours both showed fully charged cell with green leds. Normal, WP6 just slower than Pila. That would be ok for me, BTW.

Did a similar test on a not full discharged 18650 again. Put it in the WP6 and after 4hours, still trying to charge with red led. Pila as usual had green in 30 minutes or so. Three for three on this repeatable test even with totally different brand batteries. So three different brands AW, Trustfire and Ultrafire, all have had problems with WP6.

Finally got RMA from SBFFLASHLIGHTS. Save your time and money and go with the proven Pila for a consumer charger.

Someone besides Pila and hobby chargers will give us someday other charger options hopefully. icaharger is still on its way. Looking forward to all its readouts and flexibility.


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## guiri

Yeah, that's what I plan on doing, thanks


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## malow

i got today the XXC-4.2V1A, also know as "the good one" (opposed to the 042V1000A models):

http://www.focalprice.com/detail_EB046B.html

INITIAL MEASURES:

Open circuit charge voltage: 4.20V~4.21V

battery initial voltage: 3.0V 

3.50V 1.05A (red led)
3.60V 1.00A 
3.65V 0.95A
3.70V 0.90A
3.75V 0.85A
3.80V 0.80A
3.85V 0.70A
3.90V 0.60A 
3.95V 0.50A
4.00V 0.40A
4.05V 0.30A
4.10V 0.20A
4.15V 0.10A (led start to turn orange)
4.19v 0.01A (led turn full green)
4.20v 0.001A 

my multimeter are switching between 4.19v-4.20v for hours.

don't think it will "cut off", but will reduce current until "zero" (at 4.21 i think). will let the battery a day on it to see where will go 

at least better than the Ultrafire WF-138 i got the last week. 4.35v? holy crap, it does not charge, it rape the cell 

EDIT: did a more complete test, and in fact, are a "CV" charger. no constant current stage. not having a constant current stage is bad? or only slow down charging process?

also, the open circuit voltage is the same on 110V or 220V

EDIT: THE CHARGER HAS BLOWN UP! ,... great...


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## mdocod

As far as safety is concerned, I see nothing wrong with the charger ramping down or up the charge rate during the charge. It's not ideal to have it ramp down, but it's not going to hurt anything in and of itself. It's the lack of proper termination that bothers me.


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## picrthis

Finally got a Pila IBC today, they were on back order at both pila-usa and flashlightz. One thing I noticed is the DC power adapter has changed, its only 2A now instead of 2.5A as on the first page of this thread, and its a different brand power supply.

I thought I had read that its hard to find the Pila IBC in the UK, yet the DC power supply came with the 220V UK plug pre-attached to it. In a separate baggie was the 120V USA plug, you unsnap the 220V plug from the DC power supply and then snap in the 120V plug, I thought that to be a bit odd since I thought they were sold on here in the States, so why the UK plug pre-installed?

Lastly they no longer include the Pila cloth carry bag :sigh: speaking of that carry bag, if anyone has that Pila carry bag and doesn't need it, I'd be happy to purchase it from you, as I also bought Car adapter too, and I could really use it to put everything into.


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## fasuto

Anybody had tried the XTAR MP1 ?


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## billcushman

The latest Pila chargers have a different power supply than earlier units. The new power supply has the plug oriented so the charger only takes up one space on a power strip. If you look under the plug adapter, you will notice that it is certified by ETL to meet UL and CSA standards. This certification is recognized by OSHA and others as equivalent to having separate testing done by UL and CSA.

My new Pila was supplied with the Box and Sleeve. A local suppler now stocks the Pila, and his units also have the Box and Sleeve. They no longer have the Bag included. My units goes green on AW2600 Protected Cells at 4.17xx volts DC, measured with a voltmeter accurate to .01%.


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## B0wz3r

Hi all,

Just found this thread, have a few (hopefully straightforward) questions.

Please note I read the first couple pages of this thread, and the last, so please forgive me if I'm asking an already answered questions.

A few weeks ago I got a WF139 and two AW protected 18650's from Tactical LED's as a package deal. I use them for my Jet 3 Pro ST primarily and sometimes for my Quark with the 18650 body. I also got a couple AW protected 14500's for my AA size lights.

I've made sure to never leave the cells in the charger after the green light has gone on, and always do my best to not bang them around or knock them or the charger while I'm putting them in or taking them out, etc. If I've used the light they're in for any extended time I take them out and put them back in the charger as soon as I can, but won't do so if I can't check on them a few times each hour to make sure they're done.

I understand that so far from what I've read here that the Pila charger seems to be the clear cut best one to use for these cells, but I'm going to have to save up to justify another charger for my "special" batteries, particularly when it costs twice as much. 

So, in short, I should be pretty safe with this usage policy, shouldn't I? So I shouldn't feel I need to rush to get a Pila charger for my Li-ion cells, but strictly speaking, I should probably ditch the WF139 for a Pila as soon as I can, correct?

Thanks in advance for the advice.


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## Monocrom

B0wz3r said:


> . . . Thanks in advance for the advice.


 
Those are some very sensible precautions you are taking. No need to rush. Once you get the Pila IBC charger, I'd recommend not ditching the WF-139. Keep it as a back-up charger, just in case.


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## KevinL

mdocod, many thanks for taking the time to put your expertise into these tests. I have the DSD and the WF-139 and now I know.. it's not all it's cracked up to be. Too many unprotected li-ions now finding their way into the hands of the public, which wasn't supposed to happen. 

I'll take my chances with my Hyperion EOS5i charger. 

Li is still dangerous after these years.


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## 45/70

B0wz3r, you seem to have a pretty good understanding of what's up, concerning Li-Ion chargers. I'd like to point out something that for some reason, seems to go over many people's heads.



B0wz3r said:


> I understand that so far from what I've read here that the Pila charger seems to be the clear cut best one to use for these cells, but I'm going to have to save up to justify another charger for my "special" batteries, _*particularly when it costs twice as much*_.



My thoughts about most all of the "consumer type" Li-Ion chargers available out there are probably fairly well known, by many here. With the exception of the Pila (of which I do not own one, and never have), most of them just "ain't right".

You point out that the Pila costs "twice as much". This is true, but the question is, twice as much as what? A charger that improperly charges Li-Ion cells? This doesn't seem like much of a comparison.

I don't know whether you use nickel based cells, such as NiMH's or not, but the cost of a quality NiMH AA cell runs in the neighborhood of $2-$3. A decent charger to charge AA NiMH cells will cost you somewhere between $20 and $50. So, let's say a charger for NiMH cells runs about ten times the cost of a NiMH AA cell.

Now I see you use 18650 Li-Ion cells. A good Li-Ion 18650 runs around $10-$15. If we use the NiMH charger example above, this means that a charger for charging Li-Ion cells, should cost somewhere around $100-$150. But wait! The Pila only charges two cells at a time, whereas most NiMH chargers will charge 4 cells! OK, we'll divide the estimated cost figure in half then, which gives us $50-$75. Humm. Sounds like the Pila has about the same cost relationship to Li-Ion cells, as NiMH chargers do to NiMH cells!

Not too long ago, I mentioned to another member that he was spending more for a single Li-Ion cell, than he spent on the charger he was using to charge it with. I suggested that this should raise a warning flag. Particularly with Li-Ion cells, which can be dangerous if handled improperly (especially when charging), it never seizes to amaze me, how people strive very hard to find the cheapest charger they can get away with, to charge their Li-Ion cells.:thinking:

Dave


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## pae77

I agree with most of what Dave said in the previous post and would add that it never ceases to amaze _me_ how resistant people are to the idea of using inexpensive hobby chargers which these days can be had for less money than the Pila, which imo, is very over rated. The only things that are good about it is it uses CC/CV and has built in (but not adjustable) cradles and is two channel (iirc). But it provides little or no info about what's going on and most importantly has only one non adjustable starting charge current, which imo is a rather major limitation compared to the budget but decent hobby chargers that are available these days that are much more flexible with user selectable charge currents and voltages and which also have LCD displays that provide very similar information to the user as the Maha C9000 does. 

But most people seem to think these hobby chargers are much more difficult and complicated to use than they actually are and thus tend to shy away from them and instead gravitate toward the over rated (and over priced, imo) Pila, if not something even worse like the cheaper "consumer cradle" chargers. 

But in reality the hobby chargers are, imo, much cheaper, simpler and easier to use than many people seem to think, although they do require the user acquire a little background knowledge which. of course, any user of cylindrical Li-ion cells should have anyway irrespective of what type of Li-ion charger they are intending to acquire and use. 

The only negative involved with hobby chargers (which is not really much of a negative, imo) is that most of the hobby chargers are single channel and require the use of magnets and (in most cases) a separate DC power supply (i,e., an AC adapter). But even counting those modest extra requirements, these days there are decent budget hobby chargers that are less expensive and, for the reasons already mentioned, much better (imo) than the Pila.

So I would much rather have a single channel hobby charger like, for example, the Accucell 6 which costs about $39 shipped from a US based retailer, plus ~$10 for a suitable power supply (brick type) from Ebay, (if one doesn't have a suitable one already), plus less than $5 for magnets.) 

All together the cost is about the same or slightly less than the Pila while being so much more flexible and providing much more info to the user about the cells and the charging process.


----------



## 45/70

The problem is pae, that a lot of people don't want to bother with entering charge parameters and program their charger each time they use it. For a "drop 'em in and go" solution, the Pila seems to be the best thing going. Not everyone is like us, and wants to tweak everything.

Also, if you aren't paying attention (as you always should be, when charging Li-Ion cells), you can get into big trouble with a hobby charger. That's why I personally, don't recommend them as a first choice, for most people.

Dave


----------



## pae77

Point taken, but I was surprised to discover that actually one doesn't have to program most hobby chargers each time one uses it _assuming one is just using it to charge the same type of Li-ion cells each time_ because (at least with the unit I have) the charger always powers up with the same settings that were used the previous time. So there is actually no programing needed each time one wants to use it, assuming one is always using it to charge cells of the same chemistry. So usually the user won't have to change any settings at all, unless of course one wants to change the charge current, which is optional of course. If one wanted to keep it very simple, one could just set it at the same charge current as the Pila uses and it would always start up with the same settings as the Pila (which, of course, always charges at the same starting current and gives the user no option to change that). But with the hobby charger, at least one has the option to change the starting charge current, if one wants to. But one doesn't have to if one wants to keep it simple.

(And if one happens to want to adjust the starting charge current, it's actually pretty simple to accomplish. I would think anyone who could operate a flashlight could quickly master it.)


----------



## KiwiMark

pae77 said:


> (And if one happens to want to adjust the starting charge current, it's actually pretty simple to accomplish. I would think anyone who could operate a flashlight could quickly master it.)



I agree 100% with you. I know people that I wouldn't recommend a hobby charger to and I would rather see them buy a Pila charger instead. But on this forum I would recommend the hobby charger because people that have the brains to get on a forum and ask questions are very likely smart enough to work out how to use a hobby charger. 

The Accucell chargers are really not that tricky - if you always use the Li-Io setting you only need to push start button and set your charge current & # of cells, then hold the start button down until it starts up. If the voltage doesn't match how many cells you said you were charging then you'll see an error message. It doesn't take much to get to know what sort of charging current is appropriate for cells - look at the capacity and enter a number about half that (i.e. 2600mAh 18650 = 1300mA = 1.3A, 750mAh 14500 = 375mA = 0.3A, etc) or just charge all your 18650 cells at 1A and your 14500 & 16340 at 0.3A, that would work just fine for pretty much any brand or capacity of those sizes. Anyone that has charged a few batteries on their hobby charger will be finding it not that hard at all.


----------



## hank

For those using wires and clamps and magnets from "cradle" charger contacts to charge larger cells that won't fit the cradle -- this may be useful.

It's from Turnigy, who make the well recommended Acucell 6 "hobby" charger"

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14285a 

It's an envelope, not a box -- described for use with lithium-poly flat batteries -- but big enough to hold cylindrical Li-ion cells connected with magnets or clamps.

It shouldn't make you overconfident, it won't contain much fire very long, but ....

"Turnigy ... fireproof bag, designed to stop and contain the fire caused by incorrectly or poorly used lipos, especially during charging. We urge all customers to always practice extreme caution when charging and never leave a charging battery unattended and never charge in an area that could be affected by fire. The LP-Guard is made from a fibreglass woven fabric. Similar to fireproof suits worn by firefighters."

---------

This is blunt language worth repeating for new people coming in:
"never charge in an area that could be affected by fire"


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## 45/70

pae77 said:


> Point taken, but I was surprised to discover that actually one doesn't have to program most hobby chargers each time one uses it _assuming one is just using it to charge the same type of Li-ion cells each time_ because (at least with the unit I have) the charger always powers up with the same settings that were used the previous time.



This is a bad habit to develop when charging Li-Ion cells with a hobby charger. There is always the possibility that say, you've been charging 1-4 cells in parallel, as I usually do with my 4 bay cradle and you're "just sure" the last time you were using the charger that you had it set up for charging a single 16340 cell at 400mA, but in fact you had last used it to charge 4 18650 cells @ 5A (1250mA/cell). Unless you notice the Amperage setting (as you should, but......), you could conceivably place a 16340 cell in the cradle and charge it @ 5A! 

There's a lot to be said in favor of chargers like the Pila in this regard. You don't really have to check anything, as far as the charger itself is concerned. Regardless of the capacity of the cells you are charging (provided they are 600+ mAh), you just plop them in and go.

And what's all this "One" business? For years now I've been going by the name of 45/70!

Dave


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## Notsure Fire

Yeah that's quite dangerous. You don't want to be careless with li-ions.


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## KiwiMark

When charging with a hobby charger I often use the same charging current as last time, making it quick and easy - but never so quick that I don't bother reading the display! 1 Cell (4.2V), 1.2A - yep that sounds right, start! I take a few seconds to read the display and consider if I should be charging faster or slower or if the rate is about right - I do this EVERY time, it is better to read & think than to wreck my Li-ion cells. Anyone that accidentally charges their cells because they didn't want to waste 5 seconds considering whether the charge rate was right is a foolish person that can't be trusted with Li-ion cells at all.


----------



## wquiles

KiwiMark said:


> When charging with a hobby charger I often use the same charging current as last time, making it quick and easy - but never so quick that I don't bother reading the display! 1 Cell (4.2V), 1.2A - yep that sounds right, start! I take a few seconds to read the display and consider if I should be charging faster or slower or if the rate is about right - I do this EVERY time, it is better to read & think than to wreck my Li-ion cells. Anyone that accidentally charges their cells because they didn't want to waste 5 seconds considering whether the charge rate was right is a foolish person that can't be trusted with Li-ion cells at all.



+1

Exactly how I use my Triton. I "always" look at the display to verify it is doing that I think it should be doing. Problem free for about 3 years now


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## KevinL

The display is the fun part. I feel I'm 'flying blind' with cradle chargers.


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## pae77

No offense intended (or taken) but I feel a need to point out I certainly never said I don't look at the display each time I use my charger (or if I did, I certainly didn't mean to, but I don't think I did say or even imply that). 

I just said (or meant) that one doesn't necessarily _have to_ _change_ any settings each time one uses the charger. Therefore one doesn't necessarily have to do any complicated "programing" of the charger each time one uses it. *Of course* I *always* check to see what the charger is set at and consider whether I want to use those particular settings or not before I push the start button.


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## Neo9710

I just ordered the Pila Charger since the Redilast 18650's wont fit into my other charger (which by reading a couple threads wasnt that great anyways). Hopefully it will be here soon


----------



## peterharvey73

Presently, I have a DSD charger, charging AW 16340 Protected 750 mAH batteries.
It seems to be working fine!
I am a low user, so I normally only charge one battery at a time.

Should I bother buying a Pila charger at all?
What would I gain? What would the advantages be?


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## mdocod

Hello peterharvey73,

The DSD was one of the very few budget chargers I tested that I would consider pretty safe overall when it's working the way that it is supposed to, and when the user understands the safety issues of it being a single channel charger (and acts accordingly), and assuming that the charging algorithm on modern DSDs is the same as it was back when I did the test on one. A Pila would charge the cells a little faster, and have less chance of breaking randomly, but if the only cell size being charged 16340, and generally 1 at a time, then I'd be content to stay with the DSD personally. 

Eric


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## peterharvey73

Thanks for your speedy reply Eric.

Presently, the only thing that makes me *nervous* about my DSD is that, at first the light is continuously red. Fine by me.
Then after only 20 minutes, it has turned continuously green!
However, don't take the battery out just yet - because although it is continuously green, after 30 seconds or so, it will have just one red flash, then go back to being continuously green again.
Over several hours, the time in between the single red flashes lengthen to something like one red flash a minute, while being continuously on green.
After around 5 or 6 hours, then it is truly green, with no single red flashes at all.

Is this pattern/sequence of events normal?


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## mdocod

peterharvey73 said:


> Thanks for your speedy reply Eric.
> 
> Presently, the only thing that makes me *nervous* about my DSD is that, at first the light is continuously red. Fine by me.
> Then after only 20 minutes, it has turned continuously green!
> However, don't take the battery out just yet - because although it is continuously green, after 30 seconds or so, it will have just one red flash, then go back to being continuously green again.
> Over several hours, the time in between the single red flashes lengthen to something like one red flash a minute, while being continuously on green.
> After around 5 or 6 hours, then it is truly green, with no single red flashes at all.
> 
> Is this pattern/sequence of events normal?


 
You should use a DMM to monitor the voltage. I have no way of knowing for sure what your specific charger is actually doing based on "green light/red light."

I would venture to guess that because you are charging a single cell of relatively small capacity, the charge voltage is hitting the termination point of the charger (DSDs usually terminate based on the charging voltage achieving something ~4.25V), but the battery isn't actually full yet. The voltage of the cell then settles down low enough that the charge re-initiates for a little while again... As the cell ages, this behavior would become more and more prevalent. 

You can get a DMM good enough for this type of work for ~$10-20. They usually last many years and are a worthwhile investment. 

Eric


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## Monocrom

mdocod said:


> The DSD was one of the very few budget chargers I tested that I would consider pretty safe overall when it's working the way that it is supposed to . . .
> 
> Eric


 
Those are the key words right there! If my DSD wasn't the worst piece of junk _anything _that I have purchased during my lifetime, it easily ranks in the Top 3.


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## 45/70

The biggest problem I have with my DSD, is that it trickle charges. If you follow the rule of pulling cells when they're done, it might be OK, but if you should happen to forget...... That, and it really is pretty slow charging anything besides RCR123 cells. Also, it always undercharges cells, if you pull them when "done". And, the cord seems to have developed an intermittent connection it the wall wart, And...... OK, I'll stop.

Dave


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## mdocod

Hi Dave,

Good to know.. My DSD did not trickle. It terminated completely in my experience. I think it's very possible that the DSDs guts could have changed many times over the years since I had mine. 

-----------

peterharvey,

Considering Dave's experience with a DSD, I think a DMM should move up on your list of priority purchases a few notches, just so you can double check the behavior of your DSD. 

Eric


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## peterharvey73

I feel like buying a Pila charger now.

However, it is complicated, because I must also buy 16340 spacers from AW - coz I don't think the two spacers that come with the Pila are for 16340's???

I'm hoping that, compared to my DSD, I'll get a:
1) faster charge,
2) fuller charge,
3) a safer charge with a lower risk of explosions,
4) a more accurate charging indicator, so that I'll know exactly when my batteries are fully charged.
5) I can also charge two batteries of different types and different depletion levels simultaneously.

The LED charging indicator behaviour on the DSD is a little disconcerting.


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## mdocod

peterharvey73 said:


> I feel like buying a Pila charger now.
> 
> However, it is complicated, because I must also buy 16340 spacers from AW - coz I don't think the two spacers that come with the Pila are for 16340's???



Either a pair of 16340 size spacers, or a pair of 15mm spacers will also work. The pila comes with 15mm spacers, so you can stack another 15mm spacer in front of the ones it comes with to charge 34mm long cells. 



> I'm hoping that, compared to my DSD, I'll get a:
> 1) faster charge,



Yes



> 2) fuller charge,



Possible but not likely. 



> 3) a safer charge with a lower risk of explosions,



Arguably so



> 4) a more accurate charging indicator, so that I'll know exactly when my batteries are fully charged.



pretty much yes



> 5) I can also charge two batteries of different types and different depletion levels simultaneously.



Yes


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## peterharvey73

Thanks for your reply Mdocod.
Now that you say that I'm unlikely to get a fuller charge, I think I'll hold off.
I was really after a fuller charge, but 16340's are only 750 mAH, so I must accept that.
I don't need speed, nor a proper two chanel charger.
I also make it a rule to only charge when I'm at home to prevent fires.
There seems to be no big gain for me.

Furthermore, a recent thread http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?316114-PILA-IBC-Charger-question - it seems that *LED red/green behaviour problems* on the Pila charger are very common?
Just out of interest, I know the Pila is made in China, but is it engineered in China too?


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## mdocod

peterharvey73 said:


> Thanks for your reply Mdocod.
> Now that you say that I'm unlikely to get a fuller charge, I think I'll hold off.



Pretty much every li-ion charger I have tested charges batteries "full" very well.. It's all the other problems that we are concerned about. The way in which the charge is carried out, and the presence of proper termination is what we are generally looking for. 



> I was really after a fuller charge, but 16340's are only 750 mAH, so I must accept that.


I've never seen a 16340 size li-ion cell deliver a true 750mAH under any sort of realistic load in this industry. You can generally count on 400-650mAH range depending on the cell and the load. 




> Furthermore, a recent thread http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?316114-PILA-IBC-Charger-question - it seems that *LED red/green behaviour problems* on the Pila charger are very common?


Pila IBCs have a failure rate just like any other charger. Most people who buy a $5 charger that doesn't work don't bother telling anyone about it. When they buy the $50 charger that everyone recommended, we get to hear all about it; which is good. The vast majority of IBC owners are quite satisfied. 



> Just out of interest, I know the Pila is made in China,


Cheap manufacturing. Unfortunate but true. 



> but is it engineered in China too?


I think what you mean to ask is if the product is built as a typical "cheap" product. 

The product is well above average amongst it's peers. 

Eric


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## Roood

Just want to know. Are the Cytac rechargeable lithium batteries any good? TIA.

-Rod


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## peterharvey73

And another question for you too Eric.

Just out of curiosity, you know how my DSD charger starts off at continuous red for 20 minutes, then goes continuously green with a single red flash every minute for the next say 6 hours, then finally continuously green - I also read your page 1 that the DSD does not trickle charge - thus can I remove my single 16340 after 20-30 minutes when the LED goes continuously green with the single red flash per minute?
Or must I wait till the LED goes continuously green after 6 hours or so?

Out of curiosity, what is happening at the continuous red phase? Is it the initial charge to 90%?
Then the continuous green with single red flashes/min is the final top up beyond 90%?


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## Double_A

DHart said:


> Cool stuff; thanks mdocod.
> 
> Wouldn't it be great to someday have Li-Ion chargers featured similarly to the C9000/BC-900?
> 
> I think Li-Ion is still in it's infancy, but will become increasingly common and even more robust over time. Someday we'll be driving Li-Ion powered cars, no doubt. A few exist today!


 


Yes it would be nice! Any suggestions anyone??

Woa what happened here. I was relying to what I thought was a one page thread and then my browser updated to many many pages discussion?


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## 45/70

Double_A said:


> Woa what happened here. I was relying to what I thought was a one page thread and then my browser updated to many many pages discussion?



Not sure what sort of navigational infraction occurred there Double, can't help you.

As for Dhart's suggestion, if you simply wanted to have a selection of charge and discharge rates to charge Li-Ion cells, or determine their capacity at different discharge rates, hobby chargers work well for this purpose. They require a better understanding of the care and maintenance of Li-Ion cells, some additional hardware and so on to use, but they are pretty nice.

As for a C9000/BCxxx(x) type charger for Li-Ion cells, aside from the selectable charge/discharge rates, most of the additional functions these chargers offer, are specific to NiCd and NiMh cell maintenance, and not really useable with Li-Ion cells. For example there would never be any need to "Break in", "Refresh", or "Cycle" Li-Ion cells, unless you were just trying to wear out cells in an attempt to see how long they lasted, or something to that effect.

Dave


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## mdocod

peterharvey73 said:


> And another question for you too Eric.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, you know how my DSD charger starts off at continuous red for 20 minutes, then goes continuously green with a single red flash every minute for the next say 6 hours, then finally continuously green - I also read your page 1 that the DSD does not trickle charge - thus can I remove my single 16340 after 20-30 minutes when the LED goes continuously green with the single red flash per minute?
> Or must I wait till the LED goes continuously green after 6 hours or so?
> 
> Out of curiosity, what is happening at the continuous red phase? Is it the initial charge to 90%?
> Then the continuous green with single red flashes/min is the final top up beyond 90%?


 
When my DSD worked (I fried it accidentally awhile back)... flashing back and forth between green and red meant that the charger was detecting an open circuit condition, or no cell installed. Red meant "charging," green meant "finished charging."

If your charger is doing something that does not match the description I have given you, then either A: It's not working right, or B: your charger has a different behavior than the DSD I tested, and there is nothing I can do to help. 

DMMs are cheap. You can find out _exactly_ what you want to know about your specific charger if you go buy one and learn how to use it. I can not guess from afar, sorry 

-------------------------------------------------


*For others paying attention, I have added the WP6 and WP6 II to the original post. *


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## psychbeat

Thanks for the reviews!

I just ordered a WP6 II from SBF to replace my old DSD which is still
working after a couple of years of frequent use- I got lucky


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## Roood

What is an alternative battery for SureFire? 18650 won't fit so is their another type of battery aside from CR123?


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## RtOaNn

Roood said:


> What is an alternative battery for SureFire? 18650 won't fit so is their another type of battery aside from CR123?


if you're on 2xCR123, a 17670 will fit.


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## hodaka

Pardon the strange question (I have not read the whole thread), but it seems that the DSD is being recommended, even though it is clearly labelled "infamous" in the first post - why? What is it infamous for? Does it tend to blow batteries up, or is it just a little to easy to improperly charge with it?


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## Monocrom

hodaka said:


> Pardon the strange question (I have not read the whole thread), but it seems that the DSD is being recommended, even though it is clearly labelled "infamous" in the first post - why? What is it infamous for? Does it tend to blow batteries up, or is it just a little to easy to improperly charge with it?


 
It's infamous for the HUGE variety of quality across the line. You buy one, it might work fine, it might work sporadically, it might work only once in awhile, it might work once, it might be total junk and not work at all. If you have one that works fine, Congrats on having Lady Luck not just smile on you, but sit in your lap while letting you get a good look down her dress. You've pulled off a small miracle by getting a DSD that actually works properly.


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## Roood

RtOaNn said:


> if you're on 2xCR123, a 17670 will fit.



Thanks! But...

I'm using a C2 LED Centurion with KX4 head and a Z59 tailcap. How's the run time and output? And hows the fit inside the C2 body?


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## Monocrom

Any 17670 should fit inside without being too snug when it comes to the body of a SureFire C2.

Someone else will have to chime in with regards to output. But expect runtime to be less compared to two CR123 primaries in place.


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## peterharvey73

Just received my Pila charger.
It is beautifully built. Superb quality of manufacturing, fit and finish.
Still waiting for my AW LiNiCoO2 3.6V 2900 mAH flat tops and 16340 spacers to arrive.
Apparently Pila will recharge 3.6V batteries just fine, just like their 3.7V counterparts?


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## mdocod

Hi Peterharvey,

In most cases, 3.6V and 3.7V cells are going to have the same charging requirements, a CC/CV to 4.20V, however, there are some li-ion cells that should only be charged to 4.10V, in some cases, they are labeled 3.6V cells. The AW 2900mAH 18650s can be charged to 4.20V just fine, the Pila will work great. 

Eric


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## Zenbaas

Hi Eric
Also looking for a goos value for money charger so I've seen a few good things mentioned about the XTAR WP2 Mark2. Do you have any thoughts on it as a safe decent charger...? (Don't know if you rate it the same as the WP6 in your first post so I'm asking anyways).


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## thamster

mdocod said:


> My DSD did not trickle. It terminated completely in my experience. I think it's very possible that the DSDs guts could have changed many times over the years since I had mine.



Would you happen to still have your DSD and if so can you post a copy of the 'innards' (circuit)? Just bought a DSD style charger off eBay, and when it red lights it's still trickling at 40-70mA. The one I have uses a MC34063A chip internally.


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## lightliker

Great review!!
Nice to see that it's better to spend a bit more money for quality and a better battery life!
Do you have some info about the I4 charger that is availale at the site here below: 

http://blackforce.stores.yahoo.net/i4charger.html ??


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## mdocod

For some reason i can't seem to keep a subscription to this thread active, lol.. anyhow..




Zenbaas said:


> Hi Eric
> Also looking for a goos value for money charger so I've seen a few good things mentioned about the XTAR WP2 Mark2. Do you have any thoughts on it as a safe decent charger...? (Don't know if you rate it the same as the WP6 in your first post so I'm asking anyways).


 
Hello Zenbaas, 

I have note tested a WP2 so can't comment. While I hate to speculate, it would not surprise me if the WP2 Mark2 was the same as the WP6 II internally but with only 1 shared circuit rather than 3. I know I saw a good review with plotted graphs done on a WP2 around here somewhere. Try to find that for more insight. 


---------------



thamster said:


> Would you happen to still have your DSD and if so can you post a copy of the 'innards' (circuit)? Just bought a DSD style charger off eBay, and when it red lights it's still trickling at 40-70mA. The one I have uses a MC34063A chip internally.


 
The DSD I have was from many many years ago. I suspect the innards have likely changed over the years.... I'm looking at this thing, trying to figure out an easy way into it. Looks like it would take a hack saw to open it up.. Hmmm...



--------------------



lightliker said:


> Great review!!
> Nice to see that it's better to spend a bit more money for quality and a better battery life!
> Do you have some info about the I4 charger that is availale at the site here below:
> 
> http://blackforce.stores.yahoo.net/i4charger.html ??


 

Sorry, never tested one. 


--------------------

Eric


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## Zenbaas

mdocod said:


> For some reason i can't seem to keep a subscription to this thread active, lol.. anyhow..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Zenbaas,
> 
> I have note tested a WP2 so can't comment. While I hate to speculate, it would not surprise me if the WP2 Mark2 was the same as the WP6 II internally but with only 1 shared circuit rather than 3. I know I saw a good review with plotted graphs done on a WP2 around here somewhere. Try to find that for more insight
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, never tested one.
> 
> 
> --------------------
> 
> Eric


 Thanks Eric. I have ordered one in the meantime. If nothing else it seems like quite a "safe" charger. I'm now waiting for the new "Jeatbeam i4 intellicharger " to be reviewed. It looks quite promising.


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## kaj

Is the Pila IBC still the best out there today ? I don't use Li-on yet but I'm considering switching to Li-on rechargeables.


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## 45/70

kaj said:


> Is the Pila IBC still the best out there today ? I don't use Li-on yet but I'm considering switching to Li-on rechargeables.



Hi kaj. The Pila IBC and the 4Sevens Single-Bay Smart Charger, are the only two "consumer type" cradle chargers that follow the recommended CC/CV charging algorithm. All of the others have various shortcuts that have been taken which results in them approximating a CC/CV algorithm, rather than actually using one. Some are much better than others. XTAR for example has taken the time to actually improve their products, but IMO, they're still not quite there. Others have made no attempt to improve their product line, as they sell like "hotcakes" anyway (think UltraFire).

If you want to venture into using Li-Ion cells, I would start with a proper charger, and then go on from there. There are many members here that have done it the hard way, myself included, and started out with less than the best, and then end up buying it anyway in the end. So, my advice would be to do it right the first time.

Dave


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## peterharvey73

http://www.jet-beam.com/links/accessories/i4.aspx

Hi Eric, do you know anything about the all new Jetbeam Intellicharge i4?
It has 4 independent recharging bays, and it can recharge all battery types including NiCad, NiMH and Lion.
It seems to have a spring loaded "slider", not sure what you call it - so that it can take differenent battery sizes without the need for spacers etc.
It's half the price of a Pila charger too.

I just invested in a Pila Charger and AW spacers, but it only recharges 2, and Lion only???
However my RRT-3 uses 3x18650's, and my Fenix HP11 uses 4xEneloops.
So could this Sysmax Jetbeam charger be good for both my 3xAW 18650's and 4xEneloop AA's?

Is there anyway you can include the Intellicharge i4 in your page 1 reviews?


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## Mr Happy

peterharvey73 said:


> http://www.jet-beam.com/links/accessories/i4.aspx
> 
> Hi Eric, do you know anything about the all new Jetbeam Intellicharge i4?
> It has 4 independent recharging bays, and it can recharge all battery types including NiCad, NiMH and Lion.
> It seems to have a spring loaded "slider", not sure what you call it - so that it can take differenent battery sizes without the need for spacers etc.
> It's half the price of a Pila charger too.
> 
> I just invested in a Pila Charger and AW spacers, but it only recharges 2, and Lion only???
> However my RRT-3 uses 3x18650's, and my Fenix HP11 uses 4xEneloops.
> So could this Sysmax Jetbeam charger be good for both my 3xAW 18650's and 4xEneloop AA's?



I have read the product page and downloaded the user manual, but unfortunately it does not contain any of the expected keywords for charging NiMH cells, like termination methods (e.g. minus delta-V, high temperature, maximum time) that would give me a warm feeling about it. Likewise, it does not mention anything about using a low trickle charge to bring Li-ion cells up to a minimum voltage before applying a normal charging rate (good Li-ion chargers should do this for safety reasons). It says NiMH cells are charged to 1.4 V ± 1%. What's that all about? 1.4 V is much too low to charge an NiMH cell, it should go up to 1.6 V at least.

More importantly, I am very scared of the automatic selection between NiMH charging and Li-ion charging. I would *much* rather have manual control over this. Suppose you inserted a low voltage lithium ion cell and the charger thought it was NiMH? Or suppose you inserted a protected cell with tripped protection? What would the charger do with the cell?

In my opinion the published information about this charger is much too sketchy to put your trust in it. My advice would be to steer clear of it.

If it didn't try to charge NiMH or NiCd cells as well as lithium ion, and if it had a switch for either 4.2 V or 3.6 V cells, and if it had the right technical language in its description, then I would like it much better.


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## Monocrom

I think it's best having two different chargers for different chemistries. I've found that it's easy finding good, inexpensive, NiMH chargers. No need to combine them into one charger. You just make the charger more complex. And generally, that's not good for reliability.


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## mdocod

Lots of questions arising about whether I have tested or can test particular chargers... As far as I know, every charger I have tested or have had possession of for the purposes of testing is in the first post of this thread. If you don't see it there, you can assume that I have never had it in my possession, and that I have not tested it, and therefor can not comment on it. I have in nearly every possible case, proven that manufacture or reseller claims should absolutely not be trusted for these devices, so there is nothing useful to comment on after reading manufacture claimed specifications. 

Unfortunately, I can't afford to buy chargers I don't need. if anyone would like a particular model tested, please contact me via PM to arrange to send me one to be tested, or contact the manufacturer or reseller of said charger and ask them to submit one for testing. 

Eric


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## thamster

mdocod said:


> The DSD I have was from many many years ago. I suspect the innards have likely changed over the years.... I'm looking at this thing, trying to figure out an easy way into it. Looks like it would take a hack saw to open it up.. Hmmm...


It's actually held together by two screws (at least mine is). They're under the label near the top and bottom edges (one each). You can feel the indentations if you push in slightly. Of course, it'll void the warranty .


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## NITEHUNT

EXCELLENT JOB!!!! Thanks for the time involved in doing this!!


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## Corvette6769

Eric, thank you for all the hard work that went into this thread. Now having studied this, I am more confused more than before as to which charger is best for the 18650 cells.

In your experience, currently what is the best multi-cell charger for the Panasonic NCR18650B batteries?


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## Norm

Corvette6769 said:


> In your experience, currently what is the best multi-cell charger for the Panasonic NCR18650B batteries?



Your question is beyond the scope of this thread, please continue here : best 18650 battery and charger - Norm


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## Corvette6769

Thank you Norm. I tried to PM Eric, but his message box is full and can not accept any more messages. I will visit the thread you suggest to learn more.


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## Bullzeyebill

I removed a very long post by Eric. Please repost, only using a link to that post.

Bill


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