# M3 or Ultrafire WF500



## MR-STI (Sep 4, 2008)

How do these to lights compare, i like the SF M3 but cant justify the extra $$ for how much use i am going to get out of the flashlight. How much light would the following setup produce compared with a SF M3 with the M11 225 Lumes bulb in it.?

I though if i got a Ultrafire WF500 with AW 18650 Protected bats and LF HO-R5 9v 630 Lumens Bulb and a WF-139 charger all for under $100 , bang for my buck would this be the best option? compared to a $200 + SF M3.

I just want to be able to see cleary to at least 50m+.

Nic


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## Helmut.G (Sep 4, 2008)

get the Ultrafire and you'll be impressed :thumbsup:
I got the WF-600 which is pretty similar, and it really turns the night into day
you can still get a surefire sometime but the Ultrafire should give you a whole lot of lumens for a really good price :welcome:


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## Fusion_m8 (Sep 4, 2008)

Welcome to CPF MR-STI!

Its difficult to fairly compare these 2 brands of flashlights. 

The Surefire is built up to standard rather than down to a price, whereas the Ultrafire is built down to a budget rather than up to a standard, as witnessed by the wide variances in build quality and finish.

I own the 2 of them I can tell you that the Ultrafire will produce more light at 50m than the Surefire, no doubt about that. However the Surefire is FAR more reliable and better built.

If you are into flashlights as a hobby, than perhaps the Ultrafire is better suited to your budget.

However if you are in the armed forces or law enforcement where your life and the life of others depend on the equipment you use, you will be so much better off with the Surefire.

I guess its like asking yourself which is the better car? The Subaru Impreza STI or the BMW M3??? It all depends on your budget and how you're going to use it.


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## hyperloop (Sep 4, 2008)

aurora wf-600 is my recomendation


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## generic808 (Sep 4, 2008)

If you're in law enforcment the M3 is THE perfect duty light, at least in my opinion. Great balance of size, weight, light output, and not to mention the SF reliability. But if you just want something bright and reliability is not an issue, consider the UF. I've never owned any UF's myself, but they seem to be of decent quality from what I read here.


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## MR-STI (Sep 4, 2008)

Hey guys thanks for the replies.

What is the difference between the 500 and the 600, just the bulb?

No im not in law enforcement im on a farm and just want it as a general purpose light i can cart around in the ute with me. It might get taken to chase pigs, or varmint humming around the sheds, camping , stuff like that.

So what reliabilty problems are there with this light ?.

Nic


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## Helmut.G (Sep 4, 2008)

there are no reliability problems with this specific light but surefire flashlights are generally considered more reliable than other brands, especially cheap chinese lights like ultrafire because they are very well built and designed and thats also one of the reasons they're so expensive
e g the M series have a shock isolation to protect the bulb


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## therisensun (Sep 4, 2008)

MR-STI,

Have to agree with everything that's been posted so far --- especially regarding Surefire's build quality --- but I just want to make a couple of additional points.

I have a SF M3, SF M3T and Ultrafire WF500. I use all of them fairly extensively, and am extremely pleased with each. 

Through the summer months I walk my dog's about an hour each evening in an urban setting. There are still lot's of dark areas ---- an unlit trail along the river --- unlit alleys behind some of the shopping centers --- under a bridge where teenagers like to hang out and paint graffiti --- and also lots of skunks. I almost always grab the M3 for those walks because of the size. I don't like to have to fish my lights in and out of a holster while I'm trying to hold onto a Rottweiler and Chocolate Lab. The M3 drops nicely into the pocket on the side of my shorts --- easy to get in and out and not too heavy or annoying banging against my leg. The M3 has plenty of throw and flood for the distances involved in this setting, and there are lot's of bulb options from Surefire and Lumens factory. The M3T and WF500 also fit very adequately --- but they're definetely bigger and heavier --- and slightly more annoying to carry. The increased throw from the M3T and WF500 aren't necessary in this setting, so I usually don't take them along. Throughout the winter I walk the dog's in the local state park --- dozen's of miles of horse, hiking and mountain bike trails. It gets dark here at 5 p.m. --- so I often find myself 6 or 7 miles back in the woods in darkness. I carry the lights in my coat pocket so size and weight really aren't as big a consideration --- and throw means everything to me out in the woods. In the winter, I almost always have the M3T or WF500 as one of my lights.

Anyway, the point of all that was that depending on how you're going to use your light --- size, weight, "carryability" and throw might be a factor. My WF500 throws farther than my M3 but not quite as far as my M3T.

As far as light output is concerned, I find the WF500 to be slightly less than an M3T with an M16 (Surefire high output lamp assembly). I often compare the two side by side out in the woods --- and I always come away thinking the WF500 is so close that it just makes it an amazing value --- well worth the price.

If you're comparing the stock M3, M3T and WF500 then battery type becomes a very significant factor in usability and cost of operation. The WF500 allows you to use 2 x 18650 or 2 x 18500 rechargeable's. I generally use 2 x LG 2600mAh 18650's. My measurements usually yield a 2.7 to 2.9 amp draw on fresh cells for the stock Ultrafire bulb --- or roughly 53 minutes of operation --- compared to 20 minutes for the the MN16 on three 123 primaries. There are still LeefBody C Tail M Head 2x18650 Battery or 4x123 Batterytubes available for the M3 or M3T at Lighthound --- but it adds an additional 61.99 to the price. I didn't see any 2 x 18500 battery tubes currently in stock. You can use 2 x 17500 rechargeable li-ions ---- but the high output Surefire bulbs are pushing them in excess of 2C ---- the max limit most find acceptable --- I won't run the high output lamps on 2 x 17500's. If you're comparing the MN10 or the MN15 to the WF500 stock bulb, the WF500 is the clear cut winner in terms of output. The greater output may or may not be what you need or are looking for.

I absolutely love the Surefire's and am glad I own them --- but if you could only have one I'd have to recommend the Ultrafire WF500. I just can't say the Surefire's additional cost is justified. If your life is going to depend on the light --- get the Surefire.

A couple of caveat's --- I have to use a magnet to make reliable contact between battery positive and the head end of the battery tube in my WF500, and depending on your batteries you may have to use one between the two batteries --- I use leef Magnets which have a protective washer and pose no threat as a possible short --- if you don't have protected magnets a short can represent a significant and dangerous threat for unprotected li-ions. The battery tube on my WF500 is short --- my unprotected LG 18650's work, but my protected Pila's do not, YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO USE PROTECTED 18650'S IN YOUR WF500. Many people have reported reliability issues with the stock Ultrafire bulb ---- mine has been fine ---- at the very least Lumensfactory offers an alternative.

One last item ---- I was sliding my M3T in my pocket when the lab spotted a deer and took off like a rocket --- the M3T landed on rocks and it marred the bezel and tailcap --- absolutely made me sick. If I dropped the WF500 I wouldn't necessarily be happy ---- but it sure wouldn't be the end of the world.


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## Patriot (Sep 4, 2008)

Wow, good post *therisensun*!

It does seem to me that the decision is already made due to the price range you're in and I'm sure the WF500 would suit all your needs.


Just thought I'd mention that if I was purchasing a light for general purposes around a farm, camping or chasing varmints from around the shed, I'd seriously take a look at the N30 from Battery Junction. 

http://www.batteryjunction.com/n30-3161.html

It's not in the same size class as the other lights but either is the performance at 3200 lumens. Even though it's larger, it's still only a 3.5" reflector so it's not enormous or anything. It will throw a beam well over 400 yards and has the additional feature of 7 long run LED pointed forward in the handle. It's also as tuff as nails and survives rough treatment with ease and provides great run-time. I've owned one since they were released and absolutely love it. Not trying to throw you off track, but I'd say it's worth a look.


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## mdocod (Sep 4, 2008)

If you are looking for a quality alternative to a M3 you should have a look at wolf-eyes products. They are based around compatibility with 18mm diameter li-ion cells and you can buy full kits with charger and rechargeable cells for less than the cost of an M3. 

Having said that, there is something special about owning a high end SureFire.


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## MR-STI (Sep 5, 2008)

OK so i have been doing a bit of looking around on CPF and have seen some LED's like the Tiablo A9 and a few others the same size and specs and they are very impressive and they only need 1 18650 battery, shine over 200m, how do the M3 and the WF 500 compare with these light for what i want to do with them. I know they are a different type of light and the incandescent provides more contrast but for those little LED's that is very impressive. I have never seen a WF 500 or a M3 in action to compare them with a LED.

As for the wolfeyes i have a bit of a look on the ozzie website and the Raider 380 or the Rattlesnake 700 look ok, anybody used these lights?.

I would buy a M3 at the drop of a hat if it i could use 18650 bats in it as it is, but im not prepared to buy the light then spend another $60-$100 to get the gear to do so.

Nic


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## brighterisbetter (Sep 5, 2008)

First off therisensun, excellent post.

I'm relatively new here as well, but will throw in my two cents. MR-STI, here's my take on it, in addition to what so many others have already posted. If at all possible, FEEL them both in your hands, and make your decision after you've done that. All too often I've made a purchase, only to find out that it's not as cool in person as it looked online, or in a catalog, or whatever the case.

Personally, I've got a SF M3, M6, Z2 w/ M60, ShadeSlayer, Novatacs, Pentagon MolleLights, and an assortment of many others, and I constantly find myself always going to the M3 for my Go-To light. My take on the form factor of the M3 is it just feels PERFECT in my hands, but that's what you need to determine for yourself. Yeah, it won't take 18650's, but 2x17500's are no problem. And with the EO-M3 LA, I can still use 3x123 primaries, which I keep plenty of in my BOB. But that's what you've got to figure out for yourself, what will suit YOUR needs the best.

The beauty of this hobby is there's something for everyone's budget and preferences. I don't own any Ultrafire's, but can certainly attest to the Surefire's build quality, top notch from top to bottom. Good luck in your decision.


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## cernobila (Sep 5, 2008)

Yes, I had the Raider and have the Rattlesnake, I also have a number of other WE lights. The WE option would be the middle of the ground compromise between the SF and UF lights. The advantage of the WE lights over the SF is that they take the 18650 cells, the advantage of the WE lights over the UF is that they are used by a good number of goverment agencies. Also WE can be considered to be a "lego" type system with many options available. I have many lights and play with all of them but I always come back to the WE when I get serious.


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## Fusion_m8 (Sep 5, 2008)

The best value for money is the Surefire M3. Why? Because of its flexibilty to lego the flashlight into almost anything you want with the aftermarket accessories available from Surefire, Leef, FM, Milky, LumensFactory etc... The same cannot be said of the WF-500, you're basically stuck with the same light.

If you purchase the M3 and find that its not to your needs, you can sell it on CPF or ebay and get back most if not all your money. Try that with the WF-500, you'd be lucky to get even half of what you paid.

If you live on a farm, I recommend having an incandescent over a LED especially out in the fields and/or during rain and fog. The colour rendition at extended ranges(30yds+) of incands would be much better suited for those conditions.

Go for the M3, it is a light worth getting! So many CPFers on his forum cannot be wrong!


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## mdocod (Sep 5, 2008)

If you want an M3 type light, but really want 18mm li-ion cell compatibility, I'd be tempted to post a "WTB: leefbody 2x18500 C - M" over in BST and see if you can get ahold of one, if you can, then just pick up a Z46 bezel (this is the M3 "head") and a surefire compatible tailcap. (like a Z48). 

After paying for those pieces you'll have spent less than you would have on an M3 at MSRP, take the extra, and buy a few lamps to play with, a Pila IBC charger, and a few AW brand protected 18500 cells...

As for the LED throwers- yes they are impressive. They are in the same lumen's ballpark as the lower powered lamps for an M3, like the MN10, and HO-M3. They will still be shining hours after the incan has gone dead. My personal feeling is that you should probably have one as a BACKUP to your incan light, since incan bulbs can still fail at any time, especially when dropped. However, if your intended use is outdoors an M3 or similar category light would certainly have some serious advantages. Many of us have found that LED light seems to really get washed out and "soaked" up in many outdoor enciroments. 

--------------------------------

On another note, say for instance, you had an M3 budget, but this was going to be the only "cpf approved" (performance) light you were going to own, I'd personally recommend owning 2 or 3 alternative lights that can ALL be purchased inside of the budget of the M3. There is no substitute for backups. I'm thinking like a combination of like an 18650 powered LED thrower, a wolf-eyes M90, and maybe something else, not sure, either way, maybe trying to keep them all based on 18650 cells. 

Eric


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## Monocrom (Sep 5, 2008)

MR-STI said:


> I would buy a M3 at the drop of a hat if it i could use 18650 bats in it as it is, but im not prepared to buy the light then spend another $60-$100 to get the gear to do so.
> 
> Nic


 
No such gear exists. The M3 takes three CR123 primary cells. An 18650 is as long as two CR123 cells. Two 18650 cells = 4xCR123 cells.

If you wanted to convert an M4 into being 18650 compatable, it's rather easy. I did just that by getting a custom Leef body. (2x18650, C-tail to M-head, body). Since I didn't already own an M4, it was quite expensive getting all of the other needed parts.... Even though I was lucky to have found a used model M4 in great condition on B/S/T that was being sold off in individual parts. My Leef-bodied M4 is rechargeable, but is now a 9v. light when using 18650s in it; instead of 12v. with primaries.

Rechargeable M3 would require two 18500 cells. You could get an M3 along with a 2x18500, C-tail to M-head Leef body from Lighthound.com; but you lose the use of the grip-ring and it's a bit of a pricey option. 

An Ultrafire light is fine, if you're mainly interested in output. As far as reliability goes, I'm not saying it will fail on you after a while. But if that actually happens, don't be overly surprised.


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## Monocrom (Sep 5, 2008)

mdocod said:


> If you want an M3 type light, but really want 18mm li-ion cell compatibility, I'd be tempted to post a "WTB: leefbody 2x18500 C - M" over in BST....
> 
> Eric


 
I type about as quickly as a drowsy snail. :shakehead

Sorry Eric, didn't see your post until after I posted mine.


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## SCEMan (Sep 5, 2008)

MR-STI said:


> OK so i have been doing a bit of looking around on CPF and have seen some LED's like the Tiablo A9 and a few others the same size and specs and they are very impressive and they only need 1 18650 battery, shine over 200m, how do the M3 and the WF 500 compare with these light for what i want to do with them. Nic



I have a G&P R500 (LF HO-R5 & UCL lens) and a MRV (Q5, UCL, SMO), roughly comparable to a WF 500 & A9. The R500 puts out way more light compared to the MRV. The MRV outhrows it but, really isn't that useful or practical. With the OP reflector the MRV's beam is a closer match, but not nearly as bright or as revealing as the R500 incandescent.


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## MR-STI (Sep 5, 2008)

Yes it seems the M3 is the overwhelming favourite by a mile. And then a LED for backup. So if i can piece together a m3 that would be great.

OK so i have been looking at the z46 bezel, i can find them for around $50, but does that come with the reflector as well or do i have to buy that seperate??. 

Any specific brand of tail cap?? 

And i guess if i go with the standard m3 head a LF H0-M3 buld would be good?

I guess another question is, if i bought a M3 and run it on AW 17500 would it power the LF HO-M3 320lumen bulb??

I never though buying a flashlight would be so complicated :thinking: Thanks heaps for everyones imput so far, it is much appreciated.

Nic


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## Mungon (Sep 5, 2008)

My 2 cent Get the wf 500 by some extra bulbs 2 protected 18670 a charger and try it out if it's not what you want then by the expensive light 
all you lost is like 25-35 $ right


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## Kabible (Sep 5, 2008)

deleted


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## Kabible (Sep 5, 2008)

Welcome to CPF MR-STI!!

I 2nd Mungon's approach. While every opinion here is spot-on, you're new to all of this. You really won't be disappointed with a WF500 & accessories. I'm still happy with mine, purchased early on. I've sold several lights that did'nt quite fit the need but not that one. You'll also most likely use the cells & charger for future lights. 

Hang around with the good folks here and have fun gaining some knowledge. You'll surely discover previously unimagined ways of illuminating the dark and be more enlightened about how to spend your $$$ on the "right tool for the job".


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## mdocod (Sep 5, 2008)

MR-STI said:


> Yes it seems the M3 is the overwhelming favourite by a mile. And then a LED for backup. So if i can piece together a m3 that would be great.



yes, this would be ideal, but also consider the 2x18650 body mentioned as an alternative to the 2x18500... The 2x18650 body is the same length as an M4 body... but you can use the M3 Z46 head on it with M3 bulbs on 2x18650 cells. This gives you a good ~50% extra runtime and flatter discharge characteristics. Any leefbody with an M - C setup can run either the Z46 (smaller M3 bezel) or the Millennium Turbo Head, (found on the M3T, M4, M6, and included in the KT4). Each bezel requires different bulbs and has it's own advantages. The smaller M3 bezel is going to be more compact and easier to carry, the larger Turbohead produces a more concentrated beam, which is good for outdoors. 



> OK so i have been looking at the z46 bezel, i can find them for around $50, but does that come with the reflector as well or do i have to buy that seperate??.



As I understand it, the reflector and lens is already pre-installed. You just need a body, tail-cap, bezel, bulb and batteries to make it work. 



> Any specific brand of tail cap??



Probably just go with a SureFire, I'm not sure there are many other options out there right now. 



> And i guess if i go with the standard m3 head a LF H0-M3 buld would be good?


 
Yep, that would work fine, the MN10 is also a good bulb to run, 



> I guess another question is, if i bought a M3 and run it on AW 17500 would it power the LF HO-M3 320lumen bulb??



You can use 2x17500s to power up a MN10, HO-M3, or EO-M3, just NOT a MN16. The EO-M3 will be right on the edge of the maximum safe discharge rate for the cells. The HO-M3 is probably a good compromise between output and runtime. 



> I never though buying a flashlight would be so complicated :thinking: Thanks heaps for everyones imput so far, it is much appreciated.
> 
> Nic



I was going to say- You can take a look at basically every common tactical flashlight combination available in the compatibility charge, click the link in my signature to the "li-ion/incan guide"

And yes, it can get complicated at first, but it will all make sense soon enough 

Eric


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## EV_007 (Sep 5, 2008)

I have the M3T and the WF500 withe the LF bulb.

At first the WF is a good value, but in the long run the Surefire will be the better investment.

My WF500 tailswitch failed on me within the first week. I only played with the light a couple of times. Now It sits on my desk. I can get it to light, but have to twist halfway, no clicky action.

LF bulbs are excellent, not sure about the WF qaulity which seems to be hit or miss.


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## jumpstat (Sep 5, 2008)

You need something like this.....

Z46, Leef 2x 18650 body and SW02 Tailcap
MN11 producing all +300 lumens 








I used to own the above setup. I've upgraded to the M6 running the WA1185 + rechargeable with 3x more lumens....

IMHO, putting up more money for the SF M3 is a worthwhile investment. Better make, better value and manufacturer warranty :thumbsup:


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## cernobila (Sep 6, 2008)

LOL......what started of as a simple question has turned out to be a multiple page story. Why dont we expand this one out a little further........forget those small 18650's, how about a BigLeef 2x C Li-ion body, switch and either a M head neck or a C head neck then a suitable head/bezel and the right kind of lamp and bingo......you got yourself another version of a darn good light......but then again you could try.........

btw, does Surefire warranty cover non Surefire configurations like rechargeable cells, non-SF lamps, other non-SF parts etc?


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## MR-STI (Sep 6, 2008)

cernobila said:


> LOL......what started of as a simple question has turned out to be a multiple page story. Why dont we expand this one out a little further........forget those small 18650's, how about a BigLeef 2x C Li-ion body, switch and either a M head neck or a C head neck then a suitable head/bezel and the right kind of lamp and bingo......you got yourself another version of a darn good light......but then again you could try.........
> 
> btw, does Surefire warranty cover non Surefire configurations like rechargeable cells, non-SF lamps, other non-SF parts etc?


 
Oooh man i should have never asked any questions, i can feel my wallet getting lighter just by reading CPF and looking at lighthound.

How about a Bigleef 26650 body on a z46. That would be a nice compact light, with plenty of power and fast recharges according to the A123 website.

Nic


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## MR-STI (Sep 7, 2008)

Will 2x 17500 bats run the MN11 lamp that comes with a M3??

And is it possible to bore out the M3 body to fit 18650 bats and then add a detonator 1cell extender from lighthound to it and fit 2x 18650 bats in it??

So many options, get a little confusing. 

Nic


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## mdocod (Sep 7, 2008)

I realized I had made a mistake in the response above, where I list compatible lamps for the 17500s, and then say "but not the MN16" that was supposed to say "but not the MN11" (they are basically the same bulb on a different assembly). 

You can see what cells work with what battery configurations in the compatibility chart 

I'm pretty sure you could have an M3 body and detonator bored, for use with 18500/18650 (without and with extension respectively). Would be cheaper to build up with a leefbody if you could get one.


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 7, 2008)

MR-STI said:


> Will 2x 17500 bats run the MN11 lamp that comes with a M3??
> 
> And is it possible to bore out the M3 body to fit 18650 bats and then add a detonator 1cell extender from lighthound to it and fit 2x 18650 bats in it??
> 
> ...



Got to bore out that Detonator 1 cell extender too. Yes that would work with all parts bored out. My M3 body is bored out for 18650's and I have an A19 extender also bored out.

Bill


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## brighterisbetter (Sep 8, 2008)

Well, BullzeyeBill and mdocod both helped me in deciding which way to go on my M3, so I'll contribute a little too I suppose.
Currently, my M3 is stock bodied, except for an SW02 tailcap. I run LumensFactory's EO-M3 on 2x17500's unprotected with a magnet spacer. No issues so far, and decent runtime. I also from time to time add the detonator spacer and run 2x17670's unprotected, but don't care for the anodizing match too much on the detonator. Plus, the detonator combined with the SW02 makes the M3 top-heavy when standing bezel-down on my nightstand; easier to knock over.

BullzeyeBill, how thin is the material on the thinner part of the grip after boring to accomodate 18650's?

I think your best bet is to see if you can find one of Leef's 2x18650 bodies in either the marketplace or B/S/T, but like mdocod said, they're rare and often marked up quite a bit. Even still, they sell almost as quickly as they're listed.

Something that I've done that you could try if your budget allowed it, and involved absolutely no permanent machining to the tube, is this. Pick up an M6 tube and tailcap, one of mdocod's 2x18650 holders, and run the stock M3 head with LumensFactory's HO-M3. You'll lose the ability to tailstand, but you'll gain an incredibly beefy light, almost same diameter throughout, 320 lumens, a pretty darn good runtime, great balance in your hand, and if you decide you don't like it after a while, you can sell the M6 parts on marketplace for almost exactly what you paid for them, provided their condition doesn't change much. It's definitely a unique looking light! Good luck in your decision.


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## Monocrom (Sep 8, 2008)

Leef bodies have gotten a bit easier to get a hold of. When I first saw the Leef 2x18650, C tail - M head, body in stock at Lighthound.com, I snagged one quickly. That was back in early May of this year. I believe it remained in stock ever since. I just took a quick look at Lighthound. Several Leef bodies are coming up as being in stock. 

This is definitely a good time to grab one. Before the current run of Leef bodies, it had indeed been quite awhile before any new ones came up for sale. I believe Lighthound is the sole dealer of Leef bodies. 

The Leef body I got set me back $62. But was completely worth it. Lighthound is likely the best bet to snag one. I don't see Leef bodies come up for sale too often on B/S/T.


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## generic808 (Sep 8, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> Leef bodies have gotten a bit easier to get a hold of. When I first saw the Leef 2x18650, C tail - M head, body in stock at Lighthound.com, I snagged one quickly. That was back in early May of this year. I believe it remained in stock ever since. I just took a quick look at Lighthound. Several Leef bodies are coming up as being in stock.


 
Do you have a link to that Leef 2x 18650? I found a few Leef bodies on lighthound, but not the C2M? :shrug: They even have a 1x 18650 C2C RAW tube which lists as "in stock" but when I add it to the cart it says it is not available


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## Monocrom (Sep 8, 2008)

generic808 said:


> Do you have a link to that Leef 2x 18650? I found a few Leef bodies on lighthound, but not the C2M? :shrug: They even have a 1x 18650 C2C RAW tube which lists as "in stock" but when I add it to the cart it says it is not available


 
Unfortunately, I have noticed problems over at Lighthound ever since the site was re-designed. The older one was easier to navigate, with no glitches. Hopefully John will fix the problems soon. 

Here's the link to the Leef 2x18650, C-M, body....
http://www.lighthound.com/LeefBody-...y-or-4x123-Battery-HA-III-Black_p_6-938.html#


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## MR-STI (Sep 8, 2008)

So how does the LF HO-M3 bulb compare to the MN10 buld supplied with the M3.

And has anybod got a bigleef system (C cell or 26650) with a Standard M3 Z46 bezel

Nic


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## mdocod (Sep 9, 2008)

This is my semi-educated guesstimate from the li-ion/incan guide compatibility chart:

--------------------------- 

Cell configuration: 2x18650

Bulb Option:
SF MN10: 10W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
SF MN11: 20.5W, 360 - 215 lumen in 43 minutes
LF HO-M3: 12.5W, 241 - 169 lumen in 80 minutes
LF EO-M3: 16.5W, 280 - 188 lumen in 60 minutes

Body Option:
Leefbody 2x18650 M head with M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

---------------------------


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## cernobila (Sep 9, 2008)

MR-STI said:


> How do these to lights compare, i like the SF M3 but cant justify the extra $$ for how much use i am going to get out of the flashlight. How much light would the following setup produce compared with a SF M3 with the M11 225 Lumes bulb in it.?
> 
> I though if i got a Ultrafire WF500 with AW 18650 Protected bats and LF HO-R5 9v 630 Lumens Bulb and a WF-139 charger all for under $100 , bang for my buck would this be the best option? compared to a $200 + SF M3.
> 
> ...



OK, so get a grip and go back to your original question......is cost an issue? If yes, then most of the suggestions here are over the top. Surefire lights have a diehard following from some members here and they are a nice light BUT, if you are going to change most of the parts anyway and end up only with lets say, the bezel and the rest of the light is other bits and pieces.....then what’s the point in getting a M3 in the first place.

Get yourself a pad and a pen, sit yourself down and write what you actually want the light for. Set yourself a firm budget and then come back on here for some realistic suggestions.

Lol, it’s like going into an ice cream shop that has 100 flavors and you already know that you want one of the chocolate ones, it’s just a matter of which one.........so should I get the vanilla/mint or perhaps the coffee/hazelnut  .......that reminds me, I haven’t had any for ages.....hhmmm, not sure what I’ll get…..


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## MR-STI (Sep 9, 2008)

cernobila said:


> OK, so get a grip and go back to your original question......is cost an issue? If yes, then most of the suggestions here are over the top. Surefire lights have a diehard following from some members here and they are a nice light BUT, if you are going to change most of the parts anyway and end up only with lets say, the bezel and the rest of the light is other bits and pieces.....then what’s the point in
> getting a M3 in the first place.


 
Lol, I hope you dont think i would buy and SF M3 and then buy Leefbody ect IF!! i was on budget constraints, i said i cant justify the extra $$ if it is not worth it. If i was going with the leef body option i would do as mdocod suggested and buy the individual items. (z46 bezel, leef body, LF bulb and a suitable tail switch). And in the future if i went that way i could upgrade to a turbo head maybe and the parts i didnt want any would be sold fairly easy when i see how quickly thing are sold on CPM.



cernobila said:


> Get yourself a pad and a pen, sit yourself down and write what you actually want the light for. Set yourself a firm budget and then come back on here for some realistic suggestions.


 
Ummm i have had a lot of realistic suggestions, mdocod's being the most favourable so far. As i said i want the light to carry around in the Ute with me, chasing pigs ect. Chasting feral cats around the sheds want to see 50m at least. Reliability would be good when chasing pigs 



cernobila said:


> Lol, it’s like going into an ice cream shop that has 100 flavors and you already know that you want one of the chocolate ones, it’s just a matter of which one.........so should I get the vanilla/mint or perhaps the coffee/hazelnut  .......that reminds me, I haven’t had any for ages.....hhmmm, not sure what I’ll get…..


 
Thats why i am asking people who know about these lights and setups and if i am doing setup wise and looking at buying is the right thing or not. And so far it is obvious that a leefbody setup is going to be a lot more reliable then a Ultrafire. The more i look into it the more little issues i see with the cheaper lights, Not to say that you cant have problems with expensive lights as well.

Nic


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## Monocrom (Sep 9, 2008)

MR-STI said:


> {SF M3}
> 
> If i was going with the leef body option i would do as mdocod suggested and buy the individual items. (z46 bezel, leef body, LF bulb and a suitable tail switch). And in the future if i went that way i could upgrade to a turbo head maybe and the parts i didnt want any would be sold fairly easy when i see how quickly thing are sold on CPM.
> 
> Nic


 
I have much respect for mdocod. But having gone the route of getting a Leef body first, and then finding the individual parts needed to put together what turned out to be a Leef-bodied Surefire M4; that is a very costly option. It's easier and likely less expensive to get an M3, and then get the right Leef body for it. 

Trying to get all the right pieces for my Leef body..... Let's just say that I got lucky. Another CPFer had decided to part out his M4, and sell the pieces over at B/S/T. I got everything except the M4 body. Slightly used but good condition pieces. And if it wasn't for that CPFer, there's a good chance that my Leef body would have ended up for sale over at B/S/T.


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## MR-STI (Sep 9, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> I have much respect for mdocod. But having gone the route of getting a Leef body first, and then finding the individual parts needed to put together what turned out to be a Leef-bodied Surefire M4; that is a very costly option. It's easier and likely less expensive to get an M3, and then get the right Leef body for it.
> 
> Trying to get all the right pieces for my Leef body..... Let's just say that I got lucky. Another CPFer had decided to part out his M4, and sell the pieces over at B/S/T. I got everything except the M4 body. Slightly used but good condition pieces. And if it wasn't for that CPFer, there's a good chance that my Leef body would have ended up for sale over at B/S/T.


 
Hey monocrom i dont want to argue with you  all ready had my little rant for the nite. 

But so far i have manage to price a Z46 bezel, Z58 tail cap, leefbody 2x 18650, 2x AW18650, WF-139 charger 240v and 12v car LF bulb EO-M3. For $215 plus postage to Oz. 

So I guess its around the same money as buying a Stock SF M3.

On thing i never though of was O-rings. Hmm. how many of them would i need??

Nic


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## Fusion_m8 (Sep 9, 2008)

Mate, at the rate this thread is going, just get an M6 and get this over and done with. It will be a cheaper and less painful experience than buying stuff that you're not satisfied with and ending up selling them anyway. 

The M6 with the MN21 will outshine whatever bulb you care to throw in the WF-500.:naughty: Then get a Surefire 6P LED for your back-up & ultra-long runtime use.


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## cernobila (Sep 9, 2008)

MR-STI said:


> Ummm i have had a lot of realistic suggestions, mdocod's being the most favourable so far. As i said i want the light to carry around in the Ute with me, chasing pigs ect. Chasting feral cats around the sheds want to see 50m at least. Reliability would be good when chasing pigs
> Nic



.....firstly, mdocod and luxluthor are my bible on here and I read all they write.......and now that I have a better idea of what you will be using your light for, this would be my firm choice.....btw, I used to go pig shooting up North for over fifteen years before I moved "down South"......anyway, good to get something with a combination of throw and flood, that runs for about an hour, is not too big and is reliable.......I would now get a 2x C Li-ion BigLeef body with his switch, "C" head/bezel, FM-D26 with his FM1794 bulb.....if you want to stick with the easier 18650's then get a Wolf-Eyes Rattlesnake with whatever lamp you want, you can now interchange the bezel from the M90 with the one from the M100 for different beam shapes. WE lights are as tough as nails and will last you a lifetime........oh and btw, most people here when they buy they normally like to see pictures of what is for sale, especially the more expensive stuff....look after your gear if you want to sell it.


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## MR-STI (Sep 9, 2008)

Yeah it would be nice but i dont need it, if i need that much light i just use my Powabeam spotlight, puts out many times what a M6 can .

Nic


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## MR-STI (Sep 9, 2008)

cernobila said:


> .....firstly, mdocod and luxluthor are my bible on here and I read all they write.......and now that I have a better idea of what you will be using your light for, this would be my firm choice.....btw, I used to go pig shooting up North for over fifteen years before I moved "down South"......anyway, good to get something with a combination of throw and flood, that runs for about an hour, is not too big and is reliable.......I would now get a 2x C Li-ion BigLeef body with his switch, "C" head/bezel, FM-D26 with his FM1794 bulb.....if you want to stick with the easier 18650's then get a Wolf-Eyes Rattlesnake with whatever lamp you want, you can now interchange the bezel from the M90 with the one from the M100 for different beam shapes. WE lights are as tough as nails and will last you a lifetime........oh and btw, most people here when they buy they normally like to see pictures of what is for sale, especially the more expensive stuff....look after your gear if you want to sell it.


 
OK sarcasm aside :thumbsup: 

What is the difference with a c head and the standard m3 head?? and would you consider the Bigleef 26650 body, those a123 bats interest me if i can charge them as quick as they claim.

So i look on the Ozzie wolf eyes website and they have a rattlesnake 700. And they have a LED 260 lumes D36 that they say drops straight into the rattle snake 700. Is this the light you are talking about.??

Nic


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## cernobila (Sep 9, 2008)

MR-STI said:


> Yeah it would be nice but i dont need it, if i need that much light i just use my Powabeam spotlight, puts out many times what a M6 can .
> 
> Nic



I don’t know anything about the "Powabeam spotlight" so I cant comment, but any 2x Li-ion cell light (9V) is about right for what you need (2x 18650 or 2x C), perfect combination of size, weight, output and run time. The FM 1794 is only slightly brighter than the SF P91 lamp......and you have a great choice of lamps available for the WE Rattlesnake.....my son uses the WE M100 when he goes rabbit shooting.....if you can, try before you buy.


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## MR-STI (Sep 9, 2008)

cernobila said:


> I don’t know anything about the "Powabeam spotlight" so I cant comment, but any 2x Li-ion cell light (9V) is about right for what you need (2x 18650 or 2x C), perfect combination of size, weight, output and run time. The FM 1794 is only slightly brighter than the SF P91 lamp......and you have a great choice of lamps available for the WE Rattlesnake.....my son uses the WE M100 when he goes rabbit shooting.....if you can, try before you buy.


 
LOL my bad, that was a reply to Fusion_m8. I was just slow typing and searching and never saw you post till i posted it. 

Nic


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## cernobila (Sep 9, 2008)

MR-STI said:


> OK sarcasm aside :thumbsup:
> 
> What is the difference with a c head and the standard m3 head?? and would you consider the Bigleef 26650 body, those a123 bats interest me if i can charge them as quick as they claim.
> 
> ...



C head is the one on the SF 6P or 9P lights, many companies make these now, it takes most if not all D26 lamps.....don't know anything about those 26650, A123 cells, someone else could comment, I am purely a Li-ion man I dont use anything else......give Glen a call http://wolfeyes.com.au/ he will explain all you want to know......the Rattlesnake 700 is a 3x 18650 cell light with 700 lumen output.....D36 is the size of the lamp the light takes, diameter in mm.....I have the standard M90 and M100 Rattlesnakes, both take 2x 18650 cells and the output depends on the lamp you put into it.


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## MR-STI (Sep 9, 2008)

cernobila said:


> C head is the one on the SF 6P or 9P lights, many companies make these now, it takes most if not all D26 lamps.....don't know anything about those 26650, A123 cells, someone else could comment, I am purely a Li-Ion man I dont use anything else......give Glen a call http://wolfeyes.com.au/ he will explain all you want to know......the Rattlesnake 700 is a 3x 18650 cell light with 700 lumen output.....D36 is the size of the lamp the light takes, diameter in mm.....I have the standard M90 and M100 Rattlesnakes, both take 2x 18650 cells and the output depends on the lamp you put into it.


 
Ahhh ok so you have answered my next question wich was what are LRB 150A cells but now i take it they are the same as 18650 cells?.

So this 700 rattle snake is more lumens than any of the rattlesnakes on the USA WE website, does it have a better bulb??. And does your standard M90 have 700 lumens?? or do you need the 3x18650 cells to get 700 lumens. 

I get more confused then ever looking at the 2 WE websites.

The one thing i can understand is that i can get a D36 Cree Led to drop in the rattlesnake 700 or M90, i wonder how good they are, 260 lumens, wow thats good for a LED.

Nic


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## cernobila (Sep 9, 2008)

MR-STI said:


> Ahhh ok so you have answered my next question wich was what are LRB 150A cells but now i take it they are the same as 18650 cells?.
> 
> So this 700 rattle snake is more lumens than any of the rattlesnakes on the USA WE website, does it have a better bulb??. And does your standard M90 have 700 lumens?? or do you need the 3x18650 cells to get 700 lumens.
> 
> ...



Sorry, should have explained a little better......the three cell Rattlesnake can take both, the 150's or 168's with the correct extender......the 150's are the same size as the AW 18500's....and the 168's are the same size as the AW 18650's.....the longer cells give longer run times.......call Glen to get more answers, no matter where you are in AU its a local call cost...


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## cernobila (Sep 9, 2008)

To add.....Glen also stocks the range of Lumens Factory lamps and can supply any combination of light, cells and lamp that you want, the "700" is a 3x 150 or 3x 168 with a LF EO-13 lamp.....getting things from him in AU takes about two days max.....


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## Monocrom (Sep 9, 2008)

The Wolf-Eyes M90 Rattlesnake is a versatile light. The 3x18500 cell-extender keeps the light at a good size. The 3x18650 extender is a bit much. But a better alternative if all you own are 18650 cells.

The Lumens Factory EO-13 lamp is sweet! I've got one.... But it's important to keep in mind that LF makes lamps, not lights. So, their lumens figures are at the emitter. Surefire measures output out the front. And even then, their lumens figures tend to be conservative. A Surefire light rated at 65 lumens is going to be, at worst, 65 lumens. It could be more than that. Sometimes noticeably more than that. With other companies, you typically get emitter lumens being quoted.

From a company that makes lamps, you get emitter lumens. The LF EO-13 lamp is 700 lumens at the emitter. Placed into an M90 Rattlesnake, you get about 450 lumens out the front. Still, definitely not poor performance.


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## cernobila (Sep 9, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> The Lumens Factory EO-13 lamp is sweet! I've got one.... But it's important to keep in mind that LF makes lamps, not lights. So, their lumens figures are at the emitter. Surefire measures output out the front. And even then, their lumens figures tend to be conservative. A Surefire light rated at 65 lumens is going to be, at worst, 65 lumens. It could be more than that. Sometimes noticeably more than that. With other companies, you typically get emitter lumens being quoted.
> 
> From a company that makes lamps, you get emitter lumens. The LF EO-13 lamp is 700 lumens at the emitter. Placed into an M90 Rattlesnake, you get about 450 lumens out the front. Still, definitely not poor performance.



I believe that SF is the only company that quotes in lamp/output lumens, everyone else (lamp and flashlight makers) quotes in emitter lumens. So to make it easier, the SF 6P is about 100 emitter lumens for comparison purposes......and yes, some companies do exaggerate their claims of lumen output.....best is to try and look at some beam shots and compare the lights in action.


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## Monocrom (Sep 9, 2008)

There are a handful of other companies that go by out-the-front lumens, instead of emitter lumens. Pelican uses an integrating sphere. Can't recall some of the other companies off the top of my head. 

But even then, Surefire still tends to give more conservative output numbers.


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## MR-STI (Sep 9, 2008)

Hmmm ok well i will look at the lumens figure a little bit more skeptical now knowing that.

The M100 head V's the M90 Head, is the M100 like a turbo head and throws further??.

And how do people rate the Wolf Eyes compared to SF for reliability. 

Nic


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## cernobila (Sep 9, 2008)

MR-STI said:


> Hmmm ok well i will look at the lumens figure a little bit more skeptical now knowing that.
> 
> The M100 head V's the M90 Head, is the M100 like a turbo head and throws further??.
> 
> ...



For a better comparison of SF, LF, WE and other lamps have a look at mdocod's thread....scroll down to D26 2x 18650 data, then to Turbo head 2x 18650 data and there you can see the difference between all the available lamps irrespective of the advertised lumens......and if you want more light, go down to the Turbo head 3x 18650 data as well.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/161536

now, the M100 is a turbo head for throw, but you can only get the WE lamps for it, it is not a D36 type......the M90 is a combination of throw and flood, kinda general purpose beam good for most things and is the D36 size, for this one you have a good selection of lamps from LF........I have many WE lights and I find them just as reliable as any SF light I used to own.


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## MR-STI (Sep 9, 2008)

Ok so would 2x18650 drive the LF EO-13 lamp??. 

And if it would i would guess that its gonna throw a good beam past 50m??.

So the M90 with 2x18650 and the d36 lamp might be a good all round choice for what i want. And i can change to a D36 cree as well. 

How good are the cree assembly's from WE. Would the D36 260 Lumens shine out to 50m as well??

Oh dear :sigh:. I think this M90 sounds like the most sensible option for me but i still like the M3 :thinking:. Ever scince i held one at Cabelas when i was in the states i have wanted one.

Nic


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## cernobila (Sep 9, 2008)

MR-STI said:


> Ok so would 2x18650 drive the LF EO-13 lamp??.
> 
> And if it would i would guess that its gonna throw a good beam past 50m??.
> 
> ...



2x 18650 for EO-9L and 3x 18650 for the EO-13. Talk to Glen about the LED lamp, dont have one myself. Yes, the Rattlesnake is the most sensible option for your needs....btw, if you get one get it with the LED tailcap switch, this gives you a very low light option for when you are walking at night and want to conserve your batteries for the main lamp.

Just had a look at the prices for a M3 at an AU web site it is listed at AU$448.80 just for the light. SF US web site has US$269.00 on it......WOW


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## mdocod (Sep 10, 2008)

The M90 is an excellent alternative to a leefed 2x18650 setup. It's certainly more attractive price wise, and I have heard plenty of good things about Wolf-Eyes products to recommend this setup. 

If you've decided to go this route, I'd say, go ahead and start with the regular length M90, 2x18650s, and the LF EO-9L bulb. I think you'll likely find this combo to be an excellent option, but if you need more, you can just pick up an extra cell, an extender, and a EO-13.

I'm going to reiterate a point I have made in MANY threads before, but is always worth repeating: LUMENS are not as important as we often think they must be!

Allow me to elaborate:

If a light rated at "200 lumens" works well for a particular task, then so will a light with 150 or 300 lumens. It doesn't make that big of a difference in the real world as our eyes are always adjusting for lighting conditions. It takes a MASSIVE difference in lumen output to have an impact on the effectiveness for a given application. If a 200 lumen light isn't cutting it, then a 400 lumen light might still not be enough. 

Within a given "range" of output, the more important factor for what the light will excel at is in the beam pattern, not in the total lumens. 

A general rule of thumb is that, for a given reflector size, as you increase in wattage at the bulb, the beam shape will get wider. This is not an absolute rule as there are some lower wattage assemblies that have a floodier beam than some higher wattage assemblies in the same reflector class, but overall, it's a good rule of thumb to keep in mind. 

What this means is that, if you get a D36 style light, like the M90, or something similar in reflector size, like an M3 setup, and find that it isn't "reaching out" well enough, then adding more watts (lumens) is not necessarily going to fix the deficiency. 

On the flip side, more lumens is never a bad thing outdoors IMO. Every lumen available is put to good use as the outdoors has plenty of darkness to fill at night 

Anyways, bottom line is, if the M90 doesn't do the trick, then moving up to something with a larger reflector may be better. Mag modifications are a great way to get into a 2 inch reflector size, that can throw with authority using many bulb options. I'm a big fan of the ROP low bulb. It's on par lumens wise with something like an EO-9L when driven by a pair of 18500s or 18650s. 18500s can be used in a 2C mag with a few easy mods. On a smooth reflector it has a very tight beam that really reaches out nicely. 

--------------------------------------------------

Another option that i totally forgot about- the StreamLight TL-3. Which is just a simple 3xCR123 light with a big reflector on the front end and a bi-pin lamp. Can be run on a pair of 17500s with almost an hour of runtime. This won't have the lumens of something like a M90, but they have great throwing power. 


Eric


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## MR-STI (Sep 23, 2008)

Hey Guys, just a quick update. I have purchased a WE M90 13v with LF 700 bulb.

I cant wipe the smile off my face everytime i use it. Way better then i ever imagined. So thanks for every ones input into helpin me buy my first serious flashlight.

Bought it through WE Australia, they could not have been more helpful and excellent to deal with and i would recomend them, you wnt be dissapointed.

Nic


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## cernobila (Sep 23, 2008)

MR-STI said:


> Hey Guys, just a quick update. I have purchased a WE M90 13v with LF 700 bulb.
> Nic



Way to go......which one did you get, the 3x 18500 (150's) or the 3x 18650 (168's), just curious......and did you get the LED tailcap which I cant be without?


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## MR-STI (Sep 24, 2008)

cernobila said:


> Way to go......which one did you get, the 3x 18500 (150's) or the 3x 18650 (168's), just curious......and did you get the LED tailcap which I cant be without?


 

3x 18500, an no i didnt get the LED tailcap.

Nic


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## mdocod (Sep 24, 2008)

isn't it nice having something that competes with those big plastic pistol grip spotlights, but that's surprisingly compact, and outlasts them in runtime 

Great choice, I'm sure you'll be smiling for a long time with that M90.


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## Fusion_m8 (Sep 24, 2008)

Yeah, GlenC is the ultimate when it comes to customer service in Oz!

I remember the the look of stunned silence oo: on my 13yr old cousin's face when I turned on my M90 with the EO-13v lamp. 700lumens sure makes his G&P R500's output look very ordinary indeed. :naughty:





MR-STI said:


> Hey Guys, just a quick update. I have purchased a WE M90 13v with LF 700 bulb.
> 
> I cant wipe the smile off my face everytime i use it. Way better then i ever imagined. So thanks for every ones input into helpin me buy my first serious flashlight.
> 
> ...


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## Ray1968 (Oct 22, 2008)

mdocod said:


> This is my semi-educated guesstimate from the li-ion/incan guide compatibility chart:
> 
> ---------------------------
> 
> ...


 
The recent influx of Leef bodies has sparked my interest in a 2x18650 + M3 head (Z46) combo and I was reminded of this thread. Looking at the output of the listed bulb options, the difference between the MN11 and the LF EO-M3 caught my eye.

Is the MN11 really putting out that much more light (regardless of run times)?


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## mdocod (Oct 23, 2008)

In theory, yes, and it has to do with a few factors:

1. The EO-M3 is driven at the level is was designed for on 2xli-ions, there isn't a ton of overdrive going on, larger li-ions push it a little harder than the specified 7.2V but not by a huge factor.
2. The EO-M3 is a 2 amp bulb.
3. The MN11 is a 2.5+ amp bulb.
4. On 2xli-ion cells, the MN11 is pushed REALLY hard, it was originally designed to run ~6.5V from 3xCR123s, so on a pair of large li-ion cells (like 18650s) it is dealing with some substantial overdrive. This results in a lot more output, at the expense of bulb life.

----------

However, I should point out, that that isn't THAT big a difference, there may be a big difference in lumens if you subtract one from the other, but if you figure the difference in percent, it's only about 25%, which you can barely see. The MN11 will very likely appear "whiter" in appearance than the EO-M3, but in the end, both are going to be pretty darned bright. Choose the MN11 if you want to live on the edge, choose the EO-M3 if you want something reliable at that drive level. 

Eric


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## Ray1968 (Oct 23, 2008)

Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation.

In true CPF fashion........I'll get both. :naughty:


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