# If unprotected 18650 batteries are dangerous, why are they on sale ?



## march.brown (Jan 21, 2010)

I have two unprotected 18650 batteries that I would like to use, but having read up on these (on CPF), I am a little worried that something drastic might possibly happen ... It seems that most of the problems occur when the batteries are in the charger, perhaps when the owner has left them alone (charging) too long ... Or in multiple cell devices where one cell has been more discharged than the others.

I only want to use these cells in a torch ... Not a super-power torch, only my Saik SA-8, my Solarforce L2i (lengthened), my Solarforce L2 (not yet received) or my recently ordered Romisen RC-U4 ... None of these torches is what I would call a super-power torch ... So, now I don't know what to do ... My charger is a Ultrafire WF-137 single cell charger.

Surely if the unprotected cells are as dangerous as people say (on CPF) then they should not be sold for using in torches ... I know that these cells are used in Laptop Computers and that there have been problems there, but that is in a system using multiple cells ... I have a friend with a laptop and it is continuously plugged into the mains when in use ... It is rarely (if ever) used on batteries alone, in fact I doubt whether it would work now on its batteries ... She doesn't use it often so it only gets used a couple of times a week for an hour or so each time ... It is now about nine years old and apparently still performs as she wants it to ... If this Laptop is using these problem cells then perhaps she has just been very lucky so far ... Sometimes though, she leaves the laptop on for a few days just to charge the batteries ... She is in her seventies and won't listen when I have told her to use it instead on battery only ... Perhaps I should tell her about these dangers ?

The two unprotected Ultrafire (blue) 18650s as yet uncharged by me, are both reading 3.69 volts according to my old Avo 8 ... My two Ultrafire (grey) which were charged yesterday are reading 3.7 volts ... I can't guarantee the absolute accuracy of the old analogue meter ... Since I have just received the blue (unprotected) ones, is it safe to fully charge them now ? ... When I use them in a torch, do I estimate when they should be recharged or do I have to bring the torches into my study regularly just to measure the voltage ? ... Do I wait till the LED torches containing the unprotected cells are starting to go dim before recharging ? ... At least with the protected ones there should be a point at which the LED goes out but still leaves the battery safe (I think).

Perhaps someone could point me to the best thread that covers these queries ... Maybe with reference voltages giving predicted remaining power in the cell ... There may be other relative newbies that are also a bit worried about the transition from old battery technology to these new (to us) cells.

I hope this thread makes some sense to the advanced torch user ... "We newbies got to start somewhere".

Many Thanks.


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## amigafan2003 (Jan 21, 2010)

Car are dangerous.

Mountain bikes are dangerous.

Matches are dangerous.

Fireworks are dangerous.

Angle grinders are dangerous.

But yet they are all still on sale.

BUT they are all only dangerous if they are improperly used - the same applies to 18650's - if they are used properly they are almost perfectly safe - if misused then they are going to bite you in the ***.

People need to take some personal responsibilty over the products they are using. You can't legislate for stupidity - think of it as natural selection.


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## Niconical (Jan 21, 2010)

Check the voltage before charging and after charging. 
Charge them away from anything that might go 
The _moment_ you notice a dimming of output, remove and charge. (Ideally earlier than that though). 

As for the laptop batteries, the cells are unprotected, but the battery pack is not. A protected cell (like from AW) is a cell, with a protection circuit added. A laptop battery is a bunch of cells with a protection circuit covering them all. 

Voltage/remaining capacity - A rough guide, not a set-in-stone rule. 

4.2V = Full
4.1V = 90%
4.0V = 80%
3.9V = 60%
3.8V = 40%
3.7V = 20%
3.6V = Empty
(voltage is measured open circuit, the DMM leads on the poles with no load on the battery)

_(Not my figures, copied from another thread). _


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## SilverFox (Jan 21, 2010)

Hello March.brown,

Batteries store energy, and stored energy, under the right circumstances, can be dangerous.

Most people use Li-Ion batteries in devices that are designed around them, and the circuits in these devices have protection built in to insulate the average user from the dangers associated with the batteries. Taking some single cells and putting them into use in a flashlight that does not have these safety circuits designed into it exposes the user to an additional level of danger.

When you use cells that have a protection circuit built in, you still have to be cautious with their use, but when you use bare cells, you are the protection circuit. There is nothing backing up your decisions, and if you make the wrong decisions, there can be consequences beyond simple cell failure.

If you understand the parameters involved in Li-Ion technology, and are diligent in monitoring, you can use bare cells and will not have any issues. However, if you have a lapse in diligence, you will have to pay the consequences.

On the other hand, if you use protected cells, a lapse in diligence simply results in the protection circuit kicking in.

When starting off with Li-Ion cells, I always recommend doing a run time test. Once you have an idea of how long the light will run on a fresh charge, you can simply keep track of how much you use the light and charge it before it becomes completely discharged. If you loose track of how much you have used the light, pull the battery and charge it up and start over again. Or, simply measure the open circuit voltage to get an idea if it needs to be charged.

Tom


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## old4570 (Jan 22, 2010)

Some common sense will go far ...

For single cell use , there not that bad , 2x , thats different .


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## paulr (Jan 24, 2010)

March Brown, I don't know where you're posting from, but there are a heck of a lot of products that are not marketed to consumers anywhere in the USA (at least through large retailers), because of liability issues etc. You can buy unprotected li ion cells from industrial distributors, but that's different, the idea of those places is that you're designing them into OEM products and you know what you're doing, it's not really a consumer market. You can also buy them from consumer-oriented web sites overseas, from vendors that are basically immune to any consequences of the cells exploding and causing you damage or injury, so they have no disincentive to taking your money. You can also buy just about any type of counterfeit product from those places, as well as stuff like pet food or baby formula containing melamine or children's toys made out of poisonous cadmium, to name just a few examples that have made news in recent times. Think of it as the genius of the free enterprise system when all accountability is removed. If you can buy something internationally that you can't buy domestically, there might very well be a good reason for that.

Does that answer your question?


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## LeifUK (Jan 25, 2010)

Can you buy unprotected LiIon batteries in the UK? Not on the high street I bet. From what I have learnt here, they are potentially very dangerous, and need to be looked after. One part of that is using a charger with protection. 

It looks as if they originally formed part of battery packs in laptops and other devices, and the packs included protection circuits. Then someone started selling them loose, without the protection. I don't see any big names such as Panasonic selling unprotected cells which should tell you something i.e. they don't want the possible bad publicity. So you buy them from China and other places and the brands are unknown. It looks to me as if they are used by hobbyists rather than mainstream consumers. Personally I would not use them, but that is because I am easily distracted, and could leave some charging while unwatched which is a big no no. From what I have been told here, they are quite safe if treated with respect i.e. watch them while charging. I'm not sure if there is any danger in actual use.


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## 45/70 (Jan 25, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> ......From what I have been told here, they are quite safe if treated with respect i.e. watch them while charging. I'm not sure if there is any danger in actual use.



This is pretty much the bottom line. Li-Ion cells are safe, when maintained properly. In my opinion, they are far safer than the CR123A lithium primary chemistry (a lithium chemistry that differs from the AA, AAA versions). In fact, there are far more incidents from the misuse of CR123A primary cells on these Forums, than incidents involving Li-Ion cells.

As far as Li-Ions being dangerous while installed in your flashlight/torch, it's the CR123A primaries that have a high  rate, not Li-Ion's. It's extremely rare for Li-Ion cell's to cause any problem, when in use. As you pointed out, the potential danger using Li-Ion cells, is when charging. And, as you also pointed out, following proper charging procedures eliminates this problem. It's this last part that many newcomers to Li-Ion cell use, just don't seem to understand. It's no wonder, the way web dealers promote them like candy, without any hint as to how they should be used and maintained. Therein, lies the problem, and where we, the members of CPF, have a calling. 

Dave


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## Magic Matt (Jan 25, 2010)

Well I don't know about elsewhere in the world, but in the UK it's very hard to get unprotected Li-Ion cells (unless you go to a specialist). Protected Li-Ion cells can be bought from high street stores with a charger, but I've only seen them seperately once.

Dave: "_In fact, there are far more incidents from the misuse of CR123A primary cells on these Forums, than incidents involving Li-Ion cells._"
My opinion is that this is probably because having read the forums, people are much more careful with their Li-Ion cells. Outside of these forums, I suspect there are quite a few Li-Ion  stories, because people don't understand the risks.

I include myself in that group - there's no way I'd use Li-Ion cells in my own projects until it had been thoroughly tested on the bench with a suitable power supply to check it cuts out at the right voltage and doesn't draw too much current. Before I started reading the info on these forums, I would have probably chanced it and had a  story of my own.

I think CR123 primaries should be protected cells too.


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## LeifUK (Jan 25, 2010)

CR123a are widely used in consumer products, far more so than specialist LiIon cells such as the 18650. So you can't compare directly the number of problem reports unless you know the total number of cells in use. My macro flash system uses two, one per flash unit. I also have other non torch (flashlight) products that are powered from CR123a units. 



Magic Matt said:


> I think CR123 primaries should be protected cells too.



Isn't the protection to prevent overcharging? In which case it is not needed, unless I am mistaken.


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## 45/70 (Jan 25, 2010)

I'm with you Matt, and agree that the knowledge obtainable here is hopefully why incidents are less common with Li-Ion cells.

I would like to point out that the protection circuitry that is added to "bare" Li-Ion cells, is there to prevent potential problems when the cell is recharged, not to prevent anything from happening when the cell is over discharged. You can run a Li-Ion cell totally flat, and nothing will happen. _It's when you go to charge a cell_ that has been discharged to an unsafe level, that the fireworks will occur.

It is my understanding that even in series applications, where reverse charging occurs when the "pack" is run to a low level of charge, where one cell becomes depleted before others in the "pack", and is exposed to current running the opposite direction through the cell, that Li-Ions are more tolerant than lithium primaries in this regard. With primary cells, you're pretty much guaranteed fireworks, whereas with Li-Ion cells, as I understand it, it is unlikely to be eventful.

Now,_ if you go to charge _a Li-Ion cell that has been reverse charged (or discharged to too low a level), then you have a problem. Once again, most dangerous situations involving Li-Ion cells, are when charging them, not using them.

Dave


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## march.brown (Jan 25, 2010)

.
Five of my torches use 18650 batteries ... Three of these will also use three AAAs in a cassette arrangement ... I now have a Digital Multimeter which I use for voltage measurements plus my old analogue Avo 8 which is used for current measurements ... I feel better equipped to monitor the state of charge on the 18650s as the percentage capacity is directly related to the open circuit cell voltage.

I have two Ultrafire Unprotected and at the moment two Ultrafire Protected cells ... I have four more Protected ones coming in the post ... All these torches only use one 18650 each ... I understand that possible danger could arise if the torches used multiple cells where one cell was undercharged when used with fully chaged cell(s) ...I am now therefore perfectly happy when using 18650s in a single cell torch ... If I exercise a modicum of care, I can see no problem with using unprotected 18650s in a single cell torch.

You can halt the charge whenever you want and after a few minutes resting, measure the cells open circuit voltage ... This will give an indication of the percetage capacity that has been reached ... If the voltage is below the 4.2 Volt threshold you can simply put the cell back on charge and check again later ... This is no problem as the cells do not have a memory ... When the cell has measured 4.2 Volts after resting, you can assume that it is fairly near to the 100% capacity ... If I feel the urge to monitor further, I can use the Avo 8 in series with the cell to watch the charge current reduce to just a few milliamps.

So, I am much happier now than when I first read about this type of cell chemistry.

I will be sticking with 18650s for the (slightly) bigger carry torches and AA and AAA for the others ... I can see no benefit in using the 123 series of cells ... A single slim and shortish single AA torch is in my eyes much nicer than a short fat dumpy 123 torch ... Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
.


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## 45/70 (Jan 25, 2010)

march.brown said:


> .
> So, I am much happier now than when I first read about this type of cell chemistry.



That's good to hear, march. :thumbsup:

Knowledge is wisdom, wisdom is ....... eh, I forget, but anyway. 

Dave


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## Darell (Jan 25, 2010)

amigafan2003 said:


> People need to take some personal responsibilty over the products they are using. You can't legislate for stupidity



Ahh! I wanted to be the first one to answer something like this! Well said. If we took away everything that anybody found "dangerous" I'd rather just crawl into a dark cave and die. In all honest, it amazes me that we can legally pump gasoline into our vehicles, drive around thousands of other vehicles with tanks of the stuff (at high-speed, no less!) and then park tanks of this stuff in our attached garages. And we don't even give it a second thought. But boy... if a battery catches on fire, watch out!


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## digitor (Jan 25, 2010)

Magic Matt said:


> Well I don't know about elsewhere in the world, but in the UK it's very hard to get unprotected Li-Ion cells



Actually, unprotected cells are readily available in the UK (and elsewhere) - in the form of lithium ion polymer batteries which are used for RC models. Multi-cell configurations have balance leads, but not all chargers (such as the Swallow) have in-built balance capability. 

LiPos are probably one of the more unstable forms of Li-Ion cells, and also they are easily physically damaged which can start a fire - I've seen some interesting pics of burnt out planes!

Cheers


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## Illum (Jan 25, 2010)

unprotected lithium batteries are not dangerous if used properly, it was not until recently that the industry standard of "safe" regards using them in flashlights


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## roadie (Jan 25, 2010)

anyway, dun forget that some people will buy the unprotected cells to build their own lion battery pack ( like me ).

further adding a protecting circuit to the pack upon completion.

thus, with the initial circuit on the cell, means lesser work.


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## Vikas Sontakke (Jan 25, 2010)

Darell said:


> Ahh! I wanted to be the first one to answer something like this! Well said. If we took away everything that anybody found "dangerous" I'd rather just crawl into a dark cave and die. In all honest, it amazes me that we can legally pump gasoline into our vehicles, drive around thousands of other vehicles with tanks of the stuff (at high-speed, no less!) and then park tanks of this stuff in our attached garages. And we don't even give it a second thought. But boy... if a battery catches on fire, watch out!



Wow! I have not seen you on CPF for years!! 

- Vikas


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## Vesper (Jan 25, 2010)

amigafan2003 said:


> Car are dangerous.
> 
> Mountain bikes are dangerous.
> 
> ...



 Amen brother. Well said.


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## Lightcrazycanuck (Jan 25, 2010)

Vesper said:


> Amen brother. Well said.


 
+1 


lovecpf


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## csshih (Jan 25, 2010)

with safe practices....

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/246699


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## Magic Matt (Jan 25, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> Isn't the protection to prevent overcharging? In which case it is not needed, unless I am mistaken.



You're telling me some people wont try and put primary CR123 cells into a charger? Ohhh, I think they will.... 

Remember, some people try and recharge alkalines in their NiMH chargers. The world is full of idiots who will try to sue you for their own stupidity. Whilst I agree that people that do stupid things should take responsibility for the consequences, the fact is the world doesn't work that way, and I don't want to see Lithium cells etc. being banned because of knee-jerk reactions to idiots who sue shoe manufacturers if the laces snap and ththeir trainers fall off.

It's not about protecting the idiots so much as it is about protecting the manufacturers from the legal action taken by the idiots afterwards.




digitor said:


> ...lithium ion polymer batteries...
> ...probably one of the more unstable forms of Li-Ion cells



I didn't realise they were totally unprotected. That's nasty.


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## march.brown (Jan 25, 2010)

Magic Matt said:


> You're telling me some people wont try and put primary CR123 cells into a charger? Ohhh, I think they will....
> 
> Remember, some people try and recharge alkalines in their NiMH chargers. The world is full of idiots who will try to sue you for their own stupidity. Whilst I agree that people that do stupid things should take responsibility for the consequences, the fact is the world doesn't work that way, and I don't want to see Lithium cells etc. being banned because of knee-jerk reactions to idiots who sue shoe manufacturers if the laces snap and ththeir trainers fall off.
> 
> ...


 
.
I just hope the UK Government don't find out about dangerous flashlight batteries because they would be banned.

I used to do a lot of competitive full-bore and small-bore pistol shooting and after the Dunblane tragedy, because of one lunatic man, everyone in the UK had to hand in their handguns to be destroyed ... I only lost a few thousand pounds, because of that lunatic with a Firearms Certificate, but many people in Dunblane lost their children ... Batteries, like firearms, are not dangerous if they are treated with respect.

If anyone dies due to batteries exploding, there is no telling what the UK Government would do ... Let's keep all torch users informed about these cells and perhaps we can put off the evil day when the UK Government clamps down on imports.

In the case of a catastrophic failure and the resulting house fire, how do we explain to our Insurers that it was due to a battery that we knew was a possible danger ?
.


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## Kestrel (Jan 25, 2010)

Darell said:


> it amazes me that we can legally pump gasoline into our vehicles


Not in Oregon we can't - that's against the law. It's the job of our Professional Service Station Attendants...


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## Larbo (Jan 25, 2010)

I think the more important question is why would anyone buy them?? This doesnt look to me like something to scrimp on.:thinking:


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## spencer (Jan 25, 2010)

I would buy them if I had a device that had protection built into it. Why burn money on protection when you already have it?


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## march.brown (Jan 26, 2010)

spencer said:


> I would buy them if I had a device that had protection built into it. Why burn money on protection when you already have it?


.
It seems that charging is the source of possible dangers on these cells ... More so than using them in a single cell torch.

I suppose that even if the charger had all the necessary protection circuits incorporated, there is always the possibility that they could someday fail ... This could be age related or just component failure ... It would be then that the cells protection would/could save the day.

Of course if you didn't realise that the chargers circuits had failed and then the batteries protection failed .... Then what.

I know that you can't hope to solve problems by putting protection circuits into everything, so it is up to us to monitor the voltages and if necessary the charging current ... These are self-imposed safety precautions to ensure that we stay within the operating parameters of these cells.

I have two unprotected 18650 cells which I use (with a bit of common sense) and this does not worry me at all now ... I would not consider using them in multi-cell 18650 torches though ... Since I will only be using them in a single cell torch, there are no worries.
.


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## Fenki (Jan 26, 2010)

As I'm building RC models too, i'm quite used to handle unprotected cells and packs.
Fro sure there is a lot of "promotion" about how dangerous those unprotected cells are. But as a think, when reading such stories, most of those people didn't knew what they were handling.

It's more like a car: you hve to know the basics - and most important: you have to learn how to handle!
So properly treated LiIon or LiPoly cells are not really dangerous if treated right. I don't know one colleague which LiPo battery exploded. Even after heavy crashes of some planes, there was no explosion. But knowing about the LiIon batteries, a visually damaged battery is either properly disposed or (depending on the damage) carefully recharged.

For my flashlights I mostly use unprotected cells from old laptop batteries. So during the first one or two charges, I watch the temperature and if suspect, meassure the voltage. So I do also with new cells or if I buy a new charger during the first run. Later you have to decide if you trust all the stuff or don't trust the 5$ charger :thinking:

BTW: A protection circuit normally protects against overcharging, over discharging and short circuit. 
The reason I prefere unprotected cells in a flashlight is that it gets dimmer when the battery drops to some level of discharge (but still not discharged too low to recharge ). but a protected cell makes you standing in the dark within a second...

So just don't read and believe every story about an exploded LiIon but rather read some articles about the correct handlig. Then you'll be happy, your battery will be happy and your flashlight wil be bright :twothumbs


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## Jay R (Jan 26, 2010)

Magic Matt said:


> You're telling me some people wont try and put primary CR123 cells into a charger? Ohhh, I think they will....


 What, like this ?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/250219


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## LeifUK (Jan 26, 2010)

amigafan2003 said:


> Car are dangerous.
> 
> Mountain bikes are dangerous.
> 
> ...



These are not valid analogies. Anyone knows that pressing an angle grinder against someones face is going to result in some serious damage. Fireworks are on sale, but in the UK their sale is restricted, and there are laws relating to their use. And of course cars and bikes can be dangerous. That is why there is a driving licence, and strict laws on vehicles and their drivers. Few people know the dangers of unprotected cells, and that even charging them may be risky. 

"the same applies to 18650's - if they are used properly they are almost perfectly safe"

That is the key point in a nutshell. And the key question is how are you going to ensure that people use them properly? 

Anyone can purchase unregulated cells from overseas sites (for which read China) and as far as I know there is no legal regulation, and no attempt at educating users. I have no idea on the situation in the UK/Europe and North America. Most people on seeing rechargeable LiIon batteries/cells would probably assume that are the same as normal batteries, and just set them to charge overnight. Hey, they're rechargeables right? I know I would have done had I not come across this forum. So in my opinion it should be legal to sell these things, but there must be reasonable measures to ensure that users are aware of the correct use, and the dangers of incorrect use. (A large warning on the packet and a brief user guide for example.)


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## LeifUK (Jan 26, 2010)

Magic Matt said:


> You're telling me some people wont try and put primary CR123 cells into a charger? Ohhh, I think they will....



Such people would be doing us a service were they to remove themselves from the gene pool. More seriously, there is a limit to how much you can make electronic goods completely safe.


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## Linger (Jan 26, 2010)

It is very difficult to outlaw ignorance.


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## march.brown (Jan 26, 2010)

Unfortunately you can't force people to read the small print and you can't force them to buy a reliable battery charger or protected cells ... Nor can you insist that they buy a DVM just to check the battery voltage ... It is only a torch battery in their eyes and they will possibly be conversant with NiMh cells and chargers.

After all, people still smoke cigarettes and the packets have a large warning label attatched ... If they take no notice of a big label, then they will ignore the tiny printing on a battery.

We can only try to make more people aware of the possibility (not the probability) of danger.

I think that the majority of Flashlight users will be using the readily available AAA , AA , C and D cells in their Ever-Ready plastic torches, or if they are really keen they will be into Maglites ... It seems that if they progress above these torches then they will have checked out CPF or other similar sites on the internet ... If they read a few relevant threads then they will no doubt be aware of the possibility of a problem ... They will then make their own minds up which type of batteries to use based on this information.
.


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 26, 2010)

Darell said:


> Ahh! I wanted to be the first one to answer something like this! Well said. If we took away everything that anybody found "dangerous" I'd rather just crawl into a dark cave and die. In all honest, it amazes me that we can legally pump gasoline into our vehicles, drive around thousands of other vehicles with tanks of the stuff (at high-speed, no less!) and then park tanks of this stuff in our attached garages. And we don't even give it a second thought. But boy... if a battery catches on fire, watch out!



Your overall point is valid, but when items like gasoline, flammable alcohol, or fireworks FIRST came on the market, there was a strong promotion and awareness of their danger. Same with cars, matches, power tools, and electric sockets. People as a norm knew up front to use some level of appropriate caution.

Given your stature here, I continue to be amazed at such comments given that the bulk of the warning threads/posts are because so many people were not told about any dangers from Lithium batteries. It came as a total shock when people started having their laptops spontaneously exploding and burning out of control. Likewise, as more hot metal fire incidents occurred on aircraft, it was a big surprise to airline companies and government regulators. The laptop Lithium Ion issue alone has led to tens (possibly hundreds ?) of millions of recalled battery packs at great expense to everyone involved.

Again, the point of all these threads mostly comes from people still learning that when their electronics batteries were switched from alkaline, NiMH, NiCad, LA to various types of Lithium batteries, they had no idea anything could go wrong. People were in a habit of leaving NiCad & NiMH "parked" in their charger bays, so it was good to go when you picked it up. 98% of the users don't even know how to properly charge and condition Nickel rechargeable cells, but then they carry forward the same battery habits to a whole new Lithium type of cell.

When AW and others started selling unprotected Li-Ions, and before that with primary a123 lithium cells (including made by surefire), there were not any warnings given to alert the consumer that they need to learn a whole new way to properly use and care for these cells. The problem increased dramatically as cheap Chinese batteries with poor quality control began flooding the market. I would guess that the majority of people still buy the cheapest brands, mix different primary cell brands, and have no idea about checking for congruity of voltages in a multi-cell (perhaps direct drive, unregulated) application.

There are threads all over this and other forums where people using Lithium batteries had no idea what could go wrong if poor quality or abuse of cells occurred. People NEVER had any awareness with their NiMH or NiCAD batteries that extended charging could lead to explosive 2,000°F fires with extremely toxic fumes, because that was a new issue only related to Lithium batteries.

There are tons of new members joining CPF regularly, and that make posts now illustrating that they don't yet understand that Lithium cells have unique concerns. I would bet that most have no idea that these lithium battery fires are virtually unable to be extinguised with conventional fire suppressant methods, nor that the traditional fire-fighting method of dousing with water makes these lithium fires worse.

It was only a few years ago that AW (and others) added adequate warnings to their sales threads, as more and more Lithium fires were documented. There were unsafe lithium ion chargers that were being promoted and sold at CPF (and still are sold elsewhere) that do not have termination of charging at 4.2V, and people (like me) just assumed these were safe. They were not.

Once it is clear that the mainstream public is knowledgeable of certain Lithium chemistry batteries having unique risks and dangers, then fine....these threads can drop away. Until that time, these threads continue to serve an important public education, and IMHO, should not be ridiculed.


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## spencer (Jan 26, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> extended charging could lead to explosive 2,000°F fires with extremely toxic fumes



Sounds like a good idea to try sometime. Maybe away from town and other people.


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 26, 2010)

Be my guest spencer. :devil:

No sooner did I finish editing my post above, went and read this thread which illustrated what I was trying to say contemporaneously.


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## Magic Matt (Jan 28, 2010)

Jay R said:


> What, like this ?
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/250219








LuxLuthor said:


> Your overall point is valid, but when items like gasoline, flammable alcohol, or fireworks FIRST came on the market, there was a strong promotion and awareness of their danger...
> 
> ... It came as a total shock when people started having their laptops spontaneously exploding and burning out of control. Likewise, as more hot metal fire incidents occurred on aircraft, it was a big surprise to airline companies and government regulators.



You know what scares me most about that is not that Joe Public were unaware (after all, ignorance is presumed), but that in order for those incidents to have occured in such high numbers, the _manufacturers _must have been unaware of the dangers and not taken the right precautions.

The reason I dislike the ignorance factor is that if somebody blows themselves up, then that's their own fault... when that person's ignorance blows _somebody else_ up, then you have to ask whether the risk could be reduced. If ALL lithium cells, including primaries, were protected for example, would there be any incidents where a family is put at risk because of a simple mistake - to me that makes it worth it.

I must admit I still don't understand why anyone would want unprotected cells. To my mind it just defies logic; I would rather have myself and my family protected against the consequences of simple mistakes, or at least a greatly reduced risk.


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## SilverFox (Jan 28, 2010)

Hello Magic Matt,

Some people work in areas where a flashlight is critical to their safety. When entering these areas an effort is made to keep things as simple as possible. Usually, the preference is to use primary cells, but sometimes the job is more involved and a rechargeable cell is an option.

If I were entering one of these areas and had to choose a flashlight with a protected Li-Ion cell in it, or one with a bare cell, I would immediately, and without hesitation, choose the light with the bare cell.

Why? Because protection circuits are fragile and are one more thing that has the possibility of going wrong. Also, the protection circuit will limit the discharge, and in the unlikely event of an emergency, I would prefer to have the option of destroying the cell by over discharging and having some extra light available to me. I fully understand, and expect to recycle the cell at the end of the emergency. This is the "cost" of over discharging the cell.

I happen to have a very good understanding of Li-Ion chemistry. When I break the rules, I fully expect to recycle the cell and pay the price of replacing it. The "value" to me is reliability in rough service. Cells are cheap and if I happen to ruin a couple of them, that's just the way it goes.

Now for casual or fun use, or for those who due to finanical reasons are tempted to try to revive an over discharged cell rather than to do the safe thing and recycle it, then I would agree that protected cells make more sense. 

Tom


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## march.brown (Jan 28, 2010)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Magic Matt,
> 
> Some people work in areas where a flashlight is critical to their safety. When entering these areas an effort is made to keep things as simple as possible. Usually, the preference is to use primary cells, but sometimes the job is more involved and a rechargeable cell is an option.
> 
> ...


 
What type of torch is allowed in the Petro-chemical industry ?
I was told that a torch that can be used under water would be acceptable since there is less chance of a spark or naked flame ... I don't know what batteries they allow though.
.


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## Mr Happy (Jan 28, 2010)

march.brown said:


> What type of torch is allowed in the Petro-chemical industry ?
> I was told that a torch that can be used under water would be acceptable since there is less chance of a spark or naked flame ... I don't know what batteries they allow though.
> .


"Petrochemical industry" is a very broad term. The safety situation is more nuanced than that as you can see here: http://www.energizerlightingproduct...ty-approvals-testing/Pages/ansistandards.aspx

The short answer is that the best kind of device is an "intrinsically safe" one, which means that it cannot produce a spark with enough energy to ignite any flammable gases. Often that means LED lights.


----------



## Magic Matt (Jan 28, 2010)

SilverFox said:


> ...protection circuits are fragile and are one more thing that has the possibility of going wrong.



Thank you for the explanation. How fragile are we talking? Inside a flashlight, surely they're fairly well protected from being pierced or crushed so I guess we're only looking at shock...?


@Mr Happy - I will resist the temptation to make comments about gas stations, mobile phones and nylon sweaters...


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 28, 2010)

Magic Matt said:


> You know what scares me most about that is not that Joe Public were unaware (after all, ignorance is presumed), but that in order for those incidents to have occured in such high numbers, the _manufacturers _must have been unaware of the dangers and not taken the right precautions.
> 
> The reason I dislike the ignorance factor is that if somebody blows themselves up, then that's their own fault... when that person's ignorance blows _somebody else_ up, then you have to ask whether the risk could be reduced. If ALL lithium cells, including primaries, were protected for example, would there be any incidents where a family is put at risk because of a simple mistake - to me that makes it worth it.


No, precautions were taken...but once China started cranking out cheap, low quality batteries the protection designs did not anticipate that curveball. In addition, no matter what product you are designing, Murphy's Law will eventually strike.

I have a slightly different take, and not 100% sure what you meant with "the ignorance factor." If and when people have been made aware of a possible danger, then they can make informed choices and be responsible for themselves. Part of my previous post is that people brought their primitive awareness from previous NiCad/NiMH/Alkaline/Lead Acid/etc. to Lithium, and were not made aware that these are entirely different animals.

It's one thing to be told that you should not mix a123 primary cells of different brands and/or charge voltage states....and then to be told that if you don't follow this rule you could have a severe high pressure explosion, smoke, and fire. People were not made aware of Lithium = gasoline type of potential risk.

Once you get out into activities that can harm other people, then you need government enforced laws and consequences to stop these actions...and indeed there are now many new restrictions regarding transportation and storage of Lithium batteries. You are also seeing moves to safe Lithium chemistries as another viable strategy to resolve the downsides, but keep the high density energy storage solution.



Magic Matt said:


> I must admit I still don't understand why anyone would want unprotected cells. To my mind it just defies logic; I would rather have myself and my family protected against the consequences of simple mistakes, or at least a greatly reduced risk.


Initially, all that were available were unprotected Li-Ion cells, so a number of us used them because of their advantages. In general, Lithium Ion cells have not been distributed or sold retail to the general public, with the exception of Chinese/Hong Kong sources. All other uses (laptops, cell phones, etc.) have protection circuits built into the packs. 

I was not aware of the significant risks, and proper care of unprotected Lithium Ion cells for quite a while, until seeing the PC Pitstop video demonstrating the explosion and fire with a laptop battery. 

As Tom said, there are a few performance benefits that the protection circuit intentionally limits. Some of us have made an educated choice with much more intense monitoring in continuing to use unprotected Lithium Cobalt cells. I don't recommend that anyone use them however.

You see threads of people harvesting unprotected Lithium Cobalt cells from laptop batteries they buy cheaply on EBay. They see it as a wonderful cost savings strategy. Some of them likely are not fully aware of the potential risks/downsides, but that's up to them now.

Edit: Fragile mainly involves dropping the cell and the protection circuit or a weld breaks. There is also very little insultation between contact strip from positive end and negative battery can underneath. See photos here. It is irrelevant to say LED gives any benefits when it comes to an exploding lithium battery with smoke and/or fire, since an overcharged cell, reverse charge, internal short leading to most documented flashlight lithium battery explosions on this forum have been in LED lights. Other than laptops, and damaged cells (i.e. when a radio controlled plane crashes), most rechargeable Lithium Cobalt Ion battery explosions/fires come from improper charging (i.e. overcharging).


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## Mr Happy (Jan 28, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> It is irrelevant to say LED gives any benefits when it comes to an exploding lithium battery...


I'm not sure whether this comment is addressed to my post above? That post was off to one side of the main thread and was referring to the use of flashlights that might be certified safe to use in an environment where there is an explosion hazard due to the presence of flammable gases. Such lights must have a lack of ignition sources, and a hot incandescent filament is a clear ignition source if the bulb should break—hence the reference to LED lights in that context. But again, the topic is off to one side and lithium ion power sources are neither here nor there in that discussion. It's not trying to say there is any inherent safety from LED in this discussion.


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## old4570 (Jan 28, 2010)

Goodness gracious me ! 

Its not the battery thats dangerous - people are dangerous .
How safe would this world be without people ? 
Think about it !


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## Apollo Cree (Jan 28, 2010)

I got a call from a friend who's not normally an idiot. 

His cell phone battery was pregnant but still worked. It had swelled up to the point where the cover wouldn't fit on the back of the cell phone. I had to tell him about 10 times over an hour that he needed to stop using it. 

He kept saying things like "is it most dangerous when charging? How about when I use it with the charger plugged in? How much damage is it likely to do? etc."

I finally told him to think of taking the contents of a car battery and dump a few tablespoons into his cell phone. He decided to take the battery out of the cell phone and not use it until he got a replacement. Or at least tell me he was going to quit using it so I'd stop nagging him.


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 29, 2010)

Mr Happy said:


> I'm not sure whether this comment is addressed to my post above? That post was off to one side of the main thread and was referring to the use of flashlights that might be certified safe to use in an environment where there is an explosion hazard due to the presence of flammable gases. Such lights must have a lack of ignition sources, and a hot incandescent filament is a clear ignition source if the bulb should break—hence the reference to LED lights in that context. But again, the topic is off to one side and lithium ion power sources are neither here nor there in that discussion. It's not trying to say there is any inherent safety from LED in this discussion.



Oh sorry then. I didn't realize you were referring only to an ignition source. I thought your intent was related to generally lower amp output/charging input requirements being less of a trigger for Lithium Cobalt cells as a suggestion that the risk is minimized with LED.

Thanks for clarifying. :thumbsup:


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## Magic Matt (Jan 29, 2010)

I'm learning lots! 



LuxLuthor said:


> I have a slightly different take, and not 100% sure what you meant with "the ignorance factor." If and when people have been made aware of a possible danger, then they can make informed choices and be responsible for themselves. Part of my previous post is that people brought their primitive awareness from previous NiCad/NiMH/Alkaline/Lead Acid/etc. to Lithium, and were not made aware that these are entirely different animals.



I think we're talking off the same page here - the ignorance factor to me is where people will do something and are completely oblivious of a distinction that needs to be made. A good example of this is when you ask a person in the street to tell you how you handle batteries - they will willingly not only mix brands and used with unused cells, but they would happily mix alkaline with lithium AAs; for most, they go through the 'batteries floating around in the drawer' trying cells to 'find the ones that work' - in they go! If they knew the dangers of doing that, I'm sure most wouldn't do it.

Case in point - I had to re-educate my mum about a month ago, after I opened the wireless computer mouse that she had been putting on the charger, and found one NiCd and one Zinc Chloride in it. 

Seems to me there could be a use for all the knackered Lithium cells. Wire one in parallel with a freshly charged Li-Ion and a switch to short circuit, then sell them as grenades to the military. 

Perhaps unprotected cells should carry warnings like cigarette packets - I know we joke that people ignore them but there is a crucial factor in that - people don't pretend they don't know the risks, they make an informed decision to ignore the risks - I believe most people currently don't even think there is a risk.


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## recDNA (Jan 30, 2010)

Kestrel said:


> Not in Oregon we can't - that's against the law. It's the job of our Professional Service Station Attendants...


 
I think that's great.


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## recDNA (Jan 30, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Your overall point is valid, but when items like gasoline, flammable alcohol, or fireworks FIRST came on the market, there was a strong promotion and awareness of their danger. Same with cars, matches, power tools, and electric sockets. People as a norm knew up front to use some level of appropriate caution.
> 
> Given your stature here, I continue to be amazed at such comments given that the bulk of the warning threads/posts are because so many people were not told about any dangers from Lithium batteries. It came as a total shock when people started having their laptops spontaneously exploding and burning out of control. Likewise, as more hot metal fire incidents occurred on aircraft, it was a big surprise to airline companies and government regulators. The laptop Lithium Ion issue alone has led to tens (possibly hundreds ?) of millions of recalled battery packs at great expense to everyone involved.
> 
> ...


 

That begs the question - in event of a lithium fire what should be used to extinguish it? Is there a safe type of fire extinguisher or a bucket of sand or what?


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 30, 2010)

Concerning the thread topic .......
*
If unprotected 18650 batteries are dangerous, why are they on sale ?*

After 49 replies ... I hope it's obvious now ...

The batteries are NOT dangerous ... the users are !


To recDNA ,
Yes ... if on FIRE ... Sand or dirt over it would be best extinguisher - but you have to plan ahead .

.


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## Mr Happy (Jan 30, 2010)

recDNA said:


> That begs the question - in event of a lithium fire what should be used to extinguish it? Is there a safe type of fire extinguisher or a bucket of sand or what?


Sand is applicable.


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## recDNA (Jan 30, 2010)

I don't own any Li Ion so I hope that comment about dangerous users isn't aimed at me for asking the best way to put out the fire when I buy some.
Strangely, when I googled the topic the very well know battery manufacturer website said (in the event of a Li Ion charging fire) to flood the area with water - then mentioned how H2 gas may result??? I would think that would be very, VERY bad. Finally it did mention sand and CO2 fire extinguisher use toward the end.


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## march.brown (Jan 30, 2010)

In view of the exceptionally high temperatures involved (well over 1000 degrees apparently), and the volume of poisonous fumes emitted, I think that it would be better to walk quickly away from the source of the problem.

Before I retired (16 years ago) we had to undergo a one day course each year on Health & Safety ... This included actually using several types of fire extinguishers on live fires ... None of the fires were remotely near to the temperatures given for these Li-Ion fires ... Where these chemicals and metals are involved, just move away ... Possibly the modern equivalent of an asbestos blanket would be the best bet ... Throw it over the fire and move out of the way ... This would at least reduce the flame burst.

Unfortunately, removing the supply to the charger will not stop the imminent explosion once thermal runaway commences ... If you choose to carry the offending item outside, be aware that if it explodes whilst you are carrying it, the temperatures are way higher than World War Two flame throwers which were petroleum based... If it happens to be a Laptop power pack, please remember that there are other cells just waiting to explode as they are physically tied to the burning one. 

Having seen the distance that the flames were projected (on the film), you would need to be at the very least ten feet away as the flame burst was at least six feet ... The "Fireproof blanket" would reduce the risk of igniting nearby flammable objects.

Having said this, I will still be using and charging my unprotected 18650 cells ... I will be checking the open circuit cell voltages religiously during the charging cycle ... I will not be leaving them for hours on end as I do with my NiMh cells.

.


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 30, 2010)

recDNA ,

If you mean my comment ... NO ... it certainly was not directed at you .

It was just a general comment about this thread topic after 49 replies and still going , like the bunny.


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## march.brown (Jan 30, 2010)

recDNA said:


> I don't own any Li Ion so I hope that comment about dangerous users isn't aimed at me for asking the best way to put out the fire when I buy some.
> Strangely, when I googled the topic the very well know battery manufacturer website said (in the event of a Li Ion charging fire) to flood the area with water - then mentioned how H2 gas may result??? I would think that would be very, VERY bad. Finally it did mention sand and CO2 fire extinguisher use toward the end.


.
I wouldn't want to use a Carbon Dioxide extinguisher in a closed environment such as a small room ... From what I've read, water is not a good thing to use ... Perhaps someone with a knowledge of chemistry would be better versed in these things ... Perhaps also someone from the Fire Service/Department already has information on this since there has been a lot of publicity about Laptop fires.
.


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 30, 2010)

I would guess a Class B or C ... dry powder extinguisher . (not a liquid)
The ones that say "For electrical fires" . 

Choose a safe place to charge your batteries ......
An exterior location, away from flammables, not in your living quarters, certainly not your bedroom.
A closed metal tool box is a good idea to contain accidents .
.


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## rmteo (Jan 30, 2010)

An important factor when using Li-Ion cells is a proper charger. I use a hobby charger as it has many important safety features built-in that are often absent in the type chargers used by flashlight people. I have/use 24x 16340 and 16x 18650 cells (all unprotected) that I charge at 1C rate and I have not had more than a barely perceptible rise in cell temperature - if at all - during charging. That said, if it makes you more comfortable, get one of these (<$8) here http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4364








> Protect your family and home from the hazard of lipo charging. This lipo-guard is a fireproof bag, designed to stop and contain the fire caused by incorrectly or poorly functioning lipos, especially during charging. This pack is the jumbo size. It is 25x33cm. The LP-Guard is made from a fibreglass woven fabric. Similar to fireproof suits worn by firefighters.


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## recDNA (Jan 30, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> recDNA ,
> 
> If you mean my comment ... NO ... it certainly was not directed at you .
> 
> It was just a general comment about this thread topic after 49 replies and still going , like the bunny.


 
Overly sensitive on my part.


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 30, 2010)

Not really . I can see that I should have worded it differently ... so I did.

I went back and edited so it didn't appear directed at you.


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## recDNA (Jan 30, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> I would guess a Class B or C ... dry powder extinguisher . (not a liquid)
> The ones that say "For electrical fires" .
> 
> Choose a safe place to charge your batteries ......
> ...


 
Thanks. I was thinking of my garage but it is below freezing at this time of year so it will have to be inside the house. I've got a wooden desk in the basement with a 1/4 inch solid glass top. I was thinking there. I mean I could do it inside my gun safe (1.25 cubic feet inside it guns taken out of course) with the top open enough for the wire too but if charging is out of sight I'm afraid it could slip my mind. I'm using protected cells in a charger that isn't supposed to overcharge so isn't using the safe overkill? If the cells vent I'm screwed no matter what.

Any idea of approximately how long it takes to charge a AW 2600P from 3.7 volts up to 4.2 using a WF139 charger?


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## Magic Matt (Jan 31, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> ...It was just a general comment about this thread topic after 49 replies and still going , *like the bunny.*







rmteo said:


> ...if it makes you more comfortable, get one of these (<$8) here http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4364



That's a great idea! Ok, even if it's not full proof, it would have to make a difference.


The whole 'this isn't dangerous, people are' argument is one I don't see as valid personally. Absolutely any object has the potential to be dangerous, even something relatively innocent sounding like a pen or pencil. What I see as the most important factor is how much potential there is for something to be dangerous to an innocent party, and what level of responsibility there should be to warn people of the potential danger. To my mind it is irresponsible to sell something dangerous without good clear warnings about what dangers are posed through 'standard use'; a good example of this is household bleech - it is nasty stuff, and so the bottle carries clear warnings - if I ignore them, then it's my own fault, but if they are not there to begin with, how am I supposed to know the product is dangerous.


IMHO this thread would be more helpful if it were 'If unprotected 18650 cells can be dangerous, what warnings should they carry on the packaging?'


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## march.brown (Jan 31, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> I would guess a Class B or C ... dry powder extinguisher . (not a liquid)
> The ones that say "For electrical fires" .
> 
> Choose a safe place to charge your batteries ......
> ...


.
I charge all my batteries on the work-surface of my oak roll-top desk, which of course would be excellent fuel for a fire of any sort ... The desk is in my small study (ten feet by nine feet) and also houses my PC and all my other bits and pieces ... I only use single batteries in my torches and I don't have a laptop to worry about. 

Since I started using Li-Ion batteries, I have become almost paranoid in checking the open circuit voltage regularly during charging plus on occasion a check on the current ... If I was forced to do my Li-Ion charging in an exterior location or in a big metal box, I would give up on them.

One good thing about these batteries is that they don't mind being removed from the charger to have their voltage checked ... They also don't mind being put back on charge again as often as you like ... So it is easy to monitor the gradual build-up of battery voltage ... I just hope that my diligence will prevent a battery catastrophe ... I do keep putting a finger on the batteries regularly to monitor the temperature ... Luckily I have not yet had a battery that has felt hot to me ... This is not a very technical way of monitoring temperature, but it is the only way I can think of without spending more money on a thermometer.

I would be worried that a closed metal toolbox would become a sort of large (fragmentation) hand-grenade if the battery inside it was to suffer a serious failure.

My 18650 batteries are stored in plastic boxes in a drawer of my desk along with my other batteries, mainly because I don't have anywhere better to store them ... If I kept them in the Fridge, my Wife would be less than pleased ... My beer storage already causes minor disagreements.

Perhaps some knowledgeable poster would be able to comment on a suitable extinguisher or container ... I like the idea of that fibreglass bag though.
.


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## SilverFox (Jan 31, 2010)

Hello March.brown,

Silicone hot pads or cooking sheets make an excellent insulation layer between your charger and your desktop surface. You can find them new at cooking stores, or used at thrift stores or yard sales.

With Li-Ion cells, the best extinguisher is a bucket of sand. It is also convenient to have an ABC extinguisher handy should things progress beyond what the bucket of sand can handle.

Your wifes opinion may change a little if instead of a bucket you use a large container (like a large flower pot), and plant something in it...  

Tom


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 31, 2010)

march.brown said:


> .
> Perhaps some knowledgeable poster would be able to comment on a suitable extinguisher or container ... I like the idea of that fibreglass bag though.
> .



March , have you gotten a suitable answer from some knowledgeable poster yet .... even tho it was previously answered many times ?

Were you insinuating that you considered all the previous posters to be less than knowledgeable by the answers they gave ?

SilverFox also gave the same answers ..... but I think you already knew the answer.

I don't think any better replies can be offered .

Or was it actually just MY reply you didn't like and thought lacked knowledge ?

I do all the safety measures I suggested .

.


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## Apollo Cree (Jan 31, 2010)

march.brown said:


> .
> 
> I would be worried that a closed metal toolbox would become a sort of large (fragmentation) hand-grenade if the battery inside it was to suffer a serious failure.



I'd be really surprised if any explosion of a flashlight size Li-ion battery would turn a closed metal toolbox into a fragmentation hazard. I just can't imagine there being that much bang in the battery.


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 31, 2010)

Considering all the serious possibilities he already pointed out in his post 53 , he should agree that a steel tool box with a closeable lid would help to contain those 6 foot shooting flame jets he was talking about. If it's contained in a steel tool box or drawers of a steel tool chest, you won't need a bucket of sand or a class ABC extinguisher, which will add to the mess.


We're not just talking about a plastic charger melt-down here.




march.brown said:


> In view of the exceptionally high temperatures involved (*well over 1000 degrees* apparently), and the volume of poisonous fumes emitted, I think that it would be better to walk quickly away from the source of the problem.
> 
> Before I retired (16 years ago) we had to undergo a one day course each year on Health & Safety ... This included actually using several types of fire extinguishers on live fires ... None of the fires were remotely near to the temperatures given for these Li-Ion fires ... Where these chemicals and metals are involved, just move away ... *Possibly the modern equivalent of an asbestos blanket would be the best bet* ... Throw it over the fire and move out of the way ... This would *at least reduce the flame burst*.
> 
> ...


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## march.brown (Jan 31, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> March , have you gotten a suitable answer from some knowledgeable poster yet .... even tho it was previously answered many times ?
> 
> Were you insinuating that you considered all the previous posters to be less than knowledgeable by the answers they gave ?
> 
> ...


.

Firstly let me say that I did not insinuate anything ... I am not the type of person that insinuates ... I am from the North of England and up there they just don't insinuate ... They say it as it is ... However, in this case, I was merely writing a post out of my interest in Li-Ion batteries which are fairly new (to me).

Sorry if I offended you or anyone else with my comments ... No offence was insinuated, meant or implied.

I was wondering, though I didn't say in as many words, if there was someone out there (knowledgeable poster) who was a chemical engineer and had an "in-depth" knowledge of the chemistry of the Li-Ion battery ... I certainly don't have the necessary in-depth knowledge. 

I was a Radio and Line Transmission Engineer and during my studying and afterwards my lecturing in the subjects, I never came into contact with Li-Ion technology as it was not available in the fifties and sixties ... We did have NiFe cells though and NiCads ... NiMh had not been invented ... Hence my thirst for knowledge on the Li-Ions.

I don't know which type of fire extinguisher is the correct one to use in the case of an emergency involving Li-Ion cells ... I don't know the procedure in moving a Li-Ion battery that has gone into thermal runaway and is emitting smoke ... I don't even know *if* it should be moved ... I do know that if it explodes whilst it is being carried, there is a significant chance of serious personal injury due to the extraordinarily high temperatures involved and the venting distance (according to the film that I watched).

I commend you for the diligent way in which you carry out your several safety methods and sincerely hope that they are adequate in the fairly unlikely event of a problem.

I wonder how many people charge their Li-Ions in an exterior location ... I don't ... I also wonder how many people use closed metal tool boxes to contain accidents ... I don't do this either ... I am however quite happy with my methods of charging my 18650 batteries.

Anyway, I hope you will forgive me for any offence that I have inadvertantly caused to yourself and any other posters ... It was not my intention that my ramblings should cause you any grief or concern.

Sorry.
.


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## march.brown (Jan 31, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> Considering all the serious possibilities he already pointed out in his post 53 , he should agree that a steel tool box with a closeable lid would help to contain those 6 foot shooting flame jets he was talking about. If it's contained in a steel tool box or drawers of a steel tool chest, you won't need a bucket of sand or a class ABC extinguisher, which will add to the mess.
> 
> 
> We're not just talking about a plastic charger melt-down here.


 
Sorry TooManyGizmos, I missed this post as I was busy doing my last one.

May I suggest that you incorporate a metal gauze section in your steel container such as is used in the Davy Miners Lamp ... It is designed to keep the lamp flame away from the gas in a coal mine and as such avoid an explosion.

If there should be an explosion in a sealed metal box, there is the possibility of it becoming the equivalent of a fragmentation grenade.
Hence the possibility of the gauze section relieving the pressure ... On the other hand, the gauze might just be blown out of the box.

As I said previously, sorry if I upset you.

Kind Regards.
.


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 31, 2010)

Hi march.brown ,

Thanks for your explanations.
Exploding out in the open on a roll-top-desk , to go every where , would be what I would want to contain. The containment box would not be air tight - pressure could be released. I think most of the time they just rapidly vent with shooting flames - rather than explode .

It just struck me as odd , that directly after my post , you posted and ended your comments with a request for a knowledgeable poster to respond .... as if I was not , by way of what I said . I gave the safest answers I could think of and I'm not aware of any extinguisher available on the market more suitable than Class ABC (powder) for that type of fire. (and sand or dirt) Not many people have an asbestos type blanket you spoke of. You won't have to approach it if you contain it before it happens - is what I'm saying.

I'm not upset .....

Regards back atcha march ...... cheers


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## daknarr (Jan 31, 2010)

OMG!!! How _ignorant _have I been! I've had a Fenix P1 for about 4 years now using RCR123s, and just recharging them right there in the den. You can probably tell from my post count that I'm not as experienced in this as perhaps I should be. I'm soooo glad I stumbled on to this thread. You guys are really full of a lot of usefull information. I've recently moved up to a Fenix PD10 (mainly due to me dropping my P1, and it going kaput), and I'm trying to find out information on batteries. I've heard some say an LED (the Fenix line in any case) torch has built-in protection for over discharging (light shuts down under 3.0v). Not sure if that's true, but finding a rechargeable 3.0v (as opposed to 3.7v) 123 isn't easy. Harder for the protected. After reading all the information you guys have posted, I am certain of one thing. I AM ignorant to the proper usage of these batteries.

I was in Fry's Electronics yesterday, and they sell a kit from Ultralast which includes a charger and 2 RCR123 (they call them ULCR123Rs). There is an explicit NOT FOR USE WITH FLASHLIGHTS warning on the front of the package, and 2 more similar warnings on the back. I'm wondering if the warnings are there because the batteries are unprotected, and a flashlight could indeed over discharge the battery. As I said, I'm new to all of this, but I WILL be doing some research.

Hmmm...is this off subject? Yeah, I guess so. Sorry.


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## Apollo Cree (Jan 31, 2010)

Remember that the question about a metal tool box was "would it become the equivalent of a fragmentation grenade?" not "would it contain the fire/explosion?" 

Or to put it another way: 

Q1: Does the tool box make things worse? 

Q2: Will the tool box make things better in most cases? 

Q3: Will the tool box completely contain the damage in all cases? 

My best guess is: 

A1: Not likely

A2: Probably 

A3: Maybe not


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## Quension (Jan 31, 2010)

IIRC NewBie's tests for CR123 primary failure modes were conducted in a large bucket with a 1/2" sheet of lexan on top. Many of the resulting explosions lifted the lexan in order to vent flames around it. I've also seen passing reference to lithium fires being hot enough to ignite aluminum.

Whatever container you might use, it seems to me that closing/sealing it would be a bad idea.


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 31, 2010)

Apollo ,

The other question is :
Would a charging cell explode or just rapidly vent with long jets of flame . 
It would have to explode for any possibility of the box to become the equivalent of a fragmentation grenade?

And even then , I'm not sure it would escape the box, much less , fragment the box .


*Who else can offer a better solution that would contain an event and prevent the spread of fire ?* We are talking about 18650's , which store much more energy than 16340's . Watching the Laptop video ... did it ever explode , or just rapidly vent each cell . We usually charge just 1 or 2 cells for our purposes .


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## rmteo (Jan 31, 2010)

Without heat, there will not be any flame or venting. Which is why I mentioned (in post #57) that a good (hobby type) charger is the best way to prevent these kind of incidents. These chargers have several safety checks/features built-in and you can add a temp sensor to stop charging if cell temperature exceeds a set point. Even a highly touted charger on CPF can pose a problem as witnessed here https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3258188#post3258188

Secondly, the purpose designed charging bags (also mentioned in post #57) work very well in containing these types of incidents. They do not have a hard/rigid outer shell (unlike a metal box) and are not sealed. They are used with far larger batterie packs (not individual cells) than are likely to be encountered in flashlight applications. It is not uncommon to charge a couple of 6S1P (22.2V, 5AH, 111WH, total of 222Wh) packs such as these. This would be equivalent to charging about 25 18650 cells concurrently.


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## Apollo Cree (Feb 1, 2010)

Quension said:


> IIRC NewBie's tests for CR123 primary failure modes were conducted in a large bucket with a 1/2" sheet of lexan on top. Many of the resulting explosions lifted the lexan in order to vent flames around it. I've also seen passing reference to lithium fires being hot enough to ignite aluminum.
> 
> Whatever container you might use, it seems to me that closing/sealing it would be a bad idea.



I'd want to give some thought to what the container would do if there's a lot of gas produced inside. Would it build up much pressure and rupture catastrophically or simply deform to the point where the gas escapes? I'm thinking most enclosures would deform and vent given a reasonable sized battery event.


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## 45/70 (Feb 1, 2010)

Re: containing Li-Ion cells while charging. I like rmteo's solution. I've seen those before, but never really considered them, possibly because my R/C days were loooong ago. The bags seem to be ideal. The only downside I can think of, is you have to stick your hand in to observe the temperature of the cells unless, of course, you have a temp probe with your charger, or a separate one. Then I guess the bag would hold the heat in, but they're not supposed to generate heat anyway, unless the cells are about gone, so.....

I just might pick up one of those.

Dave


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## march.brown (Feb 1, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> Apollo ,
> 
> The other question is :
> Would a charging cell explode or just rapidly vent with long jets of flame .
> ...


.
Hi again TMG ... I am not certain whether we should call the cell damage an explosion or not and I don't know whether we should call it just a rapid venting with flames.

However, if you look at the powder used in reloading handgun or rifle catridges, Red Dot, Green dot, Blue Dot etc, they are not classed as explosives ... They are propellants ... If you put some in a little pile and light it, it burns quickly but doesn't explode ... When they are put in amunition, the burning of the powder is under pressure since the cases are crimped onto the head ... This alters the rate of burning of the powder to give what seems to be an explosion ... Black Powder is an explosive though, so we won't use this in the example above ... I don't know what an exploding 18650 battery would do in a sealed container ... Would it perform as the amunition powder does ? ... If two cells are used, the likelyhood is that once the first cell has reached "critical mass", the second one is about to follow ... If the first cell only distorts the metal box then the second cell might do worse.

The trouble is, nobody has tried this with the cells in a sealed container.

Until I see firm evidence on the subject, my batteries will be charged as previously mentioned and I am perfectly happy with it.
.


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## TooManyGizmos (Feb 1, 2010)

Hi again to you too , M.B

(* I wish SilverFox would chime in and define whether an un-contained battery can explode - or just vent w/flames* )

( I am only suggesting a means to contain the mess and shooting flames, minimize the surrounding damage and enable easier clean-up )

M.B , I have reloaded for 25 years, without incident.
Ammo works because we confine, contain and control the release of rapid pressure expansion .

If we break a firecracker in half , then cause ignition, it will just spew hot flames rather than explode - because the expansion pressure was no longer contained.

If a battery inside a sealed light has a *thermal runaway* , people say the light exploded . I doubt it would have exploded if they had not screwed on those threaded end caps and confined the expanding pressure . (like a pipe bomb)(and ammo) The battery was venting gasses with flames , causing internal pressure build up that could not escape ... until it dis-assembled the O-ring sealed water-tight flashlight body .

The "hinged lid tool box" I spoke of , does not have air tight - pressure containing seals when you close the loose fitting lid . Rapid expanding internal pressure can easily escape through large air gaps on 3 sides.

I'll bet if you filled an open container the size of an 18650 cell , with Red-Dot powder, then ignited it inside the closed lid tool box , all the pressure would escape from the gaps around the hinged lid , and the box would be undamaged .

If a venting battery can't damage or escape from that thin bag that was spoke of and linked to , then how can it damage or escape from an un-sealed, hinged lid steel tool box ?

As I said - my only purpose is to suggest something that can contain the event and shooting flames , rather than it being out in the open , where it may even try to act like a rocket and shoot around the room , totally uncontrollable . To keep a fire from spreading , you must contain it and control it . You also have to think about the clean-up aftermath . ( all that sand and dirt on top of your roll top desk )

TMG


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## march.brown (Feb 1, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> Hi again to you too , M.B
> 
> If a venting battery can't damage or escape from that thin bag that was spoke of and linked to , then how can it damage or escape from an un-sealed, hinged lid steel tool box ?
> TMG


.
I too reloaded for handguns (six different calibres) for over 20 years but unfortunately I had to hand all my handguns in after the Dunblane Massacre ... Non-UK people don't realise how lucky they are in some respects.

That bag apparently is a sort of woven construction which although it breathes will still hold back the flame burst ... I would be a little bit worried that if I put the charger inside it, it might not allow proper cooling.

I certainly would not like our family heirloom roll-top desk to be singed or worse, but I will carry on charging all my batteries on it ... I take great care to monitor the voltage regularly through the charge cycle ... Luckily the Li-Ions don't mind being taken off charge for these measurements ... It is amazing how much confidence a Digital Meter gives.
.


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## TooManyGizmos (Feb 1, 2010)

OK then ...... I give up


You just "voluntarily handed in" ... your guns ? I won't be doing that ... except maybe after I'm gone.

I just got an E-mail suggesting we will be expected to list all our guns on 2010 Tax returns.
All that we own and posses ...... but they're hiding the bill ... till after it's LAW .

I might be posting a thread about that real soon to see if anyone is aware of it .

.


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## 45/70 (Feb 1, 2010)

TMG, march and other UKers didn't give up without a fight, as I remember it, but they lost. 

In regards to the e-mail you received, this may give you some relief. 

Dave


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## Mr Happy (Feb 2, 2010)

In answer to some of the questions above, lithium ion batteries tend to burst vigorously into flames. Whether you might call this an "explosion" is a matter of words. There isn't really going to be a bang or a shock wave in the normal way of things.

Explosions in the traditional sense happen when a sudden energy release is confined in a restricted space, as was noted in earlier posts. Therefore if you want to charge lithium ion cells where little harm could come should they happen to vent, you should charge them in an *open* metal box or container so that any venting can escape upwards. This box should be placed in a well ventilated area so that the smoke and fumes will not be a problem to people or furnishings in the vicinity.

Just to give an idea of the numbers involved, gunpowder (black powder) has a specific energy of about 3 MJ/kg (three megajoules per kilogram). For comparison purposes, a fully charged 18650 lithium ion cell of 2400 mAh capacity contains about 0.75 MJ/kg of stored energy (about 1/4 as much as the same weight of gunpowder).

Since we know how "interesting" an explosion of 1 kg or 2 lb of gunpowder can be, that gives you an idea of how much energy could be released from 18650 cells when venting with flame. The advantage of lithium ion cells is that they burn much slower than gunpowder.

On the other hand I have owned laptops stuffed full of 18650 cells for years and have never been concerned about the possibility of them bursting into flames. Practically speaking, a well treated lithium ion cell is not a big risk. An ill-treated cell, on the other hand, is...


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 2, 2010)

march.brown said:


> The trouble is, nobody has tried this with the cells in a sealed container.



Yeah, it has been tried and there are a number of videos showing this. You can look through this thread at RC Groups, but they do explode the metal ammo closed cans. It might also be in this other thread at RC Groups.


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## TooManyGizmos (Feb 2, 2010)

But LUX , wouldn't you say that's a little different than a loose tool box ? Ammo cans seal air tight !
.


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## kramer5150 (Feb 2, 2010)

They are safe only if they are used safely.

How many IMR18650 vent/fire incidences have been reported (for example).


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## TooManyGizmos (Feb 2, 2010)

I get the impression that very few members agree with my containment suggestions ........

So I guess I should just HUSH

.


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## march.brown (Feb 2, 2010)

The trouble is, nobody has tried this with the cells in a sealed container.



LuxLuthor said:


> Yeah, it has been tried and there are a number of videos showing this. You can look through this thread at RC Groups, but they do explode the metal ammo closed cans. It might also be in this other thread at RC Groups.


.
There are a lot of pages to get through here but it would be very worrying to me if they were due to single cell problems ... Trouble seems to be mainly the multi-battery packs used in model aircraft and similar ... Charging the batteries and leaving the house is not to be recommended as shown in photographs ... It is well worth a read.

Having read the above reference, I am now not certain about my storage methods ... It has certainly made me more aware of the problems.

If the UK government ever hear that some of its subjects are using what might be described as "UXBs" or "IEDs", then we could be forced to hand in all Li-Ions as we did with all our handguns ... This may be a slight exageration but it is the way they think in Westminster ... Bear in mind that we are not allowed to smack an intruder ... A TV personality waved a kitchen knife through her (closed) window at two intruders that had come into her garden to the house and she had a Police warning ... It caused a bit of a stir in the newspapers ... So, this gives you all an idea how we are treated in the UK ... The intruder is allowed to attack the victim, presumeably because that is part of the intruders job description, but the victim has to behave himself ... It just seems a bit wrong.

We are not allowed to shoot at the intruder with a shotgun ... The last victim that did this spent years in jail after an expensive trial.

Anyway, please have a look what the Remote Control boys have to say about Li-Ion batteries.

By the way TMG, don't go HUSH on us ... Your views are just as important as anyone elses.
.


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## Jay R (Feb 2, 2010)

march.brown said:


> Bear in mind that we are not allowed to smack an intruder ... A TV personality waved a kitchen knife through her (closed) window at two intruders that had come into her garden to the house and she had a Police warning ...


Not entirely true. A police officer she was talking to mentioned that it probably wasn’t a good idea to wave a knife at a group of intruders in her garden. She didn’t get any kind of ‘Police warning’.

I notice you are being a bit selective with your news stories. For you Americans, this topic has been in the news here in the UK because a chap had a home invasion where the people tied up his family and robbed them at knifepoint. After they left, he got free, went round to his brothers where they both went looking for the burglars with cricket bats. They found one and beat him so bad he is now brain damaged. ( And deservedly so in my opinion. ) For this _revenge act_ ( Judges words ) he got a two year suspended sentence and a whole bunch of public and political support.
I’ll say that again, the man was burgled, went looking for revenge, nearly killed someone and gave them permanent brain damage and all he got was a suspended sentence.
Now, you tell me again how the UK law protects the criminal and not the victim.




march.brown said:


> We are not allowed to shoot at the intruder with a shotgun ... The last victim that did this spent years in jail after an expensive trial..


Again, not the full story is it. He shot a 16 year old kid in the back with an illegally owned shotgun when the kid was running away and then, rather than calling the authorities, left the child to die alone in the woods while he went round his mothers to hide the evidence, have a cup of tea and sleep on her sofa.
I think a couple of years in prison is about right for that.

Back on subjet. I've been using unprotected cells for years and often leave them on charge overnight. I sleep well and don't worry about them. If, god forbid, they started a fire, I'd rely on one of my many smoke alarms waking me and the fire extinguisher to put it out. There's many other things I worry about more.


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## carrot (Feb 2, 2010)

Vendors who cater to hobbyists such as our group provide such dangerous items for those who can, or believe they can, handle them properly. If everything that was ever sold had to cater to the lowest common denominator we would lead pretty boring lives.


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## SilverFox (Feb 2, 2010)

Hello TooManyGizmos,

I would never consider charging a single Li-Ion cell, or a Li-Ion battery pack inside a closed container. I charge them in an open area with an eye to minimize secondary damage.

If I remember correctly, one of the RC people took a 1500 mAh Li-Po 3 cell pack and deliberately overcharged it inside an ammo box with a 4" hole cut into it. He was thinking that he could use a similar set up in his garage, and the vent would safely channel the gases outside his garage through some dryer vent tubing. 

The resulting blast and fire ball left him with the realization that it was not the best idea to try to contain the rapid venting. 

This spurred on the development of the LiPo sack. The LiPo sack contains the hot materials, but allows the gases to vent.

Granted, this test was designed to exaggerate the safety issues, but the results were very sobering.

Tom


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 2, 2010)

Jay R said:


> Not entirely true. A police officer she was talking to mentioned that it probably wasn’t a good idea to wave a knife at a group of intruders in her garden. She didn’t get any kind of ‘Police warning’.
> 
> I notice you are being a bit selective with your news stories. For you Americans, this topic has been in the news here in the UK because a chap had a home invasion where the people tied up his family and robbed them at knifepoint. After they left, he got free, went round to his brothers where they both went looking for the burglars with cricket bats. They found one and beat him so bad he is now brain damaged. ( And deservedly so in my opinion. ) For this _revenge act_ ( Judges words ) he got a two year suspended sentence and a whole bunch of public and political support.
> I’ll say that again, the man was burgled, went looking for revenge, nearly killed someone and gave them permanent brain damage and all he got was a suspended sentence.
> ...


Thanks for bringing reality to that. Most laws in civilized democracies will support someone defending themself with a lawfully owned object/weapon--when directly threatened with bodily injury to themself or their family.


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## TooManyGizmos (Feb 2, 2010)

OK SilverFox ..... got it ..... thanks for chiming in with more details.


Ya'll will notice - I never suggested to latch the tool box LID ........


I'll compromise ....... tool box with ... open lid .


That will make it more comparable to the open top containers bomb disposal squads use .


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## Magic Matt (Feb 2, 2010)

Jay R said:


> Now, you tell me again how the UK law protects the criminal and not the victim.



Iraq.



I can't think of lithium cells without being reminded of a scene in Terminator 2 where he throws away his hydrogen fuel cell and there's a mini mushroom cloud.




Carrot said:


> If everything that was ever sold had to cater to the lowest common denominator we would lead pretty boring lives.



I maintain that depends on _what degree_ you cater to the lowest denominator. The fact that we even have the debate says to me that there's a lot of differing opinions as to how great the risk is, and what sensible precautions we should be taking. To me this is all the more reason that the manufacturers should be providing that information. I don't know to what extent they do, but I suspect if they provided as much detailed information as has been discussed on this forum, sales of those type of batteries would drop... it wouldn't be the first time profit is put before product safety, and I'm sure it wont be the last.


I'm happy to take a risk if I know it exists and I can assess it. I am not happy to be put at risk without knowing about it, if the person putting me at risk knows about the dangers and just didn't tell me, leading me to believe there isn't even a risk.


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## TooManyGizmos (Feb 2, 2010)

Jay R said:


> Back on subjet. I've been using unprotected cells for years and often leave them on charge overnight. I sleep well and don't worry about them. *If, god forbid, they started a fire, I'd rely on one of my many smoke alarms waking me and the fire extinguisher to put it out.* There's many other things I worry about more.



Jay R ,

Often times , once a smoke detector has activated + your response time to find the source through the smoke , you may not have time or ability to fight it and extinguish it - ALL you can do is spend the valuable time getting yourself and the family OUT .

Please re-consider charging while you sleep .

(Even detecting it depends on a LOT of variables)
.


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## LeifUK (Feb 2, 2010)

march.brown said:


> TBear in mind that we are not allowed to smack an intruder ... A TV personality waved a kitchen knife through her (closed) window at two intruders that had come into her garden to the house and she had a Police warning ... It caused a bit of a stir in the newspapers ... So, this gives you all an idea how we are treated in the UK ... The intruder is allowed to attack the victim, presumeably because that is part of the intruders job description, but the victim has to behave himself ... It just seems a bit wrong.



That is not true. You are allowed to use 'reasonable force', and recently a man stabbed some youths who were threatening his step son. It went to court, and the judge said he acted correctly. You could kill an intruder, if you did so in self defence. But you are not allowed to kill/main someone as punishment. 

The problem is that when you are threatened, what seems like reasonable force is hard to judge, and perhaps hard to prove. And the police sometimes appear to take the side of the felon, rather than the victim. One stupid copper can give them all a bad name. :shakehead 

Recently a man in his stationary car in traffic blew his nose, and was arrested and charged for not being in control of his vehicle. :shakehead He is appealing, and I hope the judge locks up the copper instead.


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## 45/70 (Feb 2, 2010)

Magic Matt said:


> To me this is all the more reason that the manufacturers should be providing that information. I don't know to what extent they do, but I suspect if they provided as much detailed information as has been discussed on this forum, sales of those type of batteries would drop... it wouldn't be the first time profit is put before product safety, and I'm sure it wont be the last.



I think this brings up a very common misunderstanding here on the Forums. Manufacturers do not sell Li-Ion cells to our group, or any other consumer, period. There is too much of a liability to do so.

I've brought this up in several threads. The cells, or most of them anyway, that we buy, come from distributors, like the various xxxxxFire brands, for example. These folks don't manufacture battery cells. They just buy up "loose" cell lots usually, but not always, consisting of rejects, or seconds that don't make the grade for comercial pack making, slap their own label on them, in some cases a protection circuit of their own is added, and then they pass them on to us.

The actual manufacturers have never intended for you or me to buy, or even own these cells. It'd be too much of a liability risk. So,the blame for not informing buyers like ourselves about the safe and proper handling of Li-Ion cells, falls on those companies who distribute them, not the manufacturers. 

With most of these cells coming from distributors in China, these companies are at little risk. I doubt that that will change, short of some sort of intervention by government agencies. That's why we here on the Forums do what we do, try to educate folks that are new to Li-Ions, on their proper safe handling and care.

Keep in mind, the possibility that if these distributors did make a big deal out of Li-Ion safety precautions, it might attract a lot of attention from the wrong people. I sure would hate to see that happen. It already has with a lot of postal/shipping services refusing to transport loose Li-Ion cells. I've said this before, my biggest fear is an all out ban on loose Li-Ion cells.

I don't know what the answer is, but I fear we're heading in the wrong direction. Somehow, we need to raise awareness, without setting off all sorts of alarms.

Dave


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## LeifUK (Feb 2, 2010)

Jay R said:


> For this _revenge act_ ( Judges words ) he got a two year suspended sentence and a whole bunch of public and political support.



Not so. A business man and his brother chased after a criminal who tied up his family, and threatened to kill them. When they caught the man, they beat his with a cricket bat. The business man and his brother were BOTH sent to prison for quite a long time, but the man was later released by the judge on compassionate grounds since he had suffered extreme stress during the attack. However, he still has a criminal record. I think it wrong that he was imprisoned, and compassion should have been shown. (I do not care about the attacker.) But his brother should have known better. He was not scared to death by the attackers. Still, can any of us really say how we would act in this situation?


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## LeifUK (Feb 2, 2010)

Magic Matt said:


> I'm happy to take a risk if I know it exists and I can assess it. I am not happy to be put at risk without knowing about it, if the person putting me at risk knows about the dangers and just didn't tell me, leading me to believe there isn't even a risk.



Spot on. 

Someone who bungee jumps, or parachutes from high altitude, does so knowing the risks, and making a decision based on those risks. The idea that we could sell someone unprotected Lithium cells without telling them that they should not be left unattended while charging is irresponsible.


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## Jay R (Feb 3, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> Not so. A business man and his brother chased after a criminal who tied up his family, and threatened to kill them.


 Eh, you say I’m wrong and then state exactly the same as I did. I didn’t mention the brother because it wasn’t relative to the conversation of victims and response. I didn’t mention the whole 30 month sentence, public outcry, appeal, reduced sentence because I didn’t want to write a novel.
 What I said was correct, he went looking for the robber for “revenge/justice”, beat him half dead and brain damaged and ended up with a suspended sentence.
 I was wrong about one thing though. He didn’t end up with a two year suspended sentence, he ended up with a one year sentence, suspended for two years.

Can’t help but feel we are getting off the track again…

TooManyGizmos,
 Point taken, perhaps I’ll only charge them while awake from now on but still don’t think I’ll go as far as the whole box/bag thing. It seems a bit too cautious but that’s just me.

 We each arrange our lives with a degree of danger that we are comfortable with. I’m comfortable with riding a motorcycle fast and charging batteries on the table but I wouldn’t jump out of a plane with a parachute unless it was crashing. I say, now you have the knowledge, charge your cells in a way that you feel comfortable with.


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## march.brown (Feb 3, 2010)

My method of charging Li-Ion cells has altered now ... When I am working on the PC, I will charge my 18650s on the top of the desk ... I can easily put a finger on the cells to check the temperature at any time ... I can switch off the charger and check the cells open circuit voltage at regular intervals ... I can keep doing this till the voltage is coming up to 4.2 volts ... Even if I stop the charge at 4.1 volts, I will have 90% capacity ... I can't think of a better way of charging ... If I go out of the room, I will switch off the charger and remove the cells, unless I am absent only for a very short time.

My Li-Ion cells for my camera are 1300mAh and 1000mAh and I must admit that at times over the last few years they have been left alone on charge for two or three hours maybe more, as the charger output is only 500mA ... I have never noticed these batteries getting warm during charging ... There is no mention on the labels to say whether these camera batteries are protected or not ... I am now changing my technique on these to fall in line with my 18650 method ... I have noticed that the camera batteries are not as good as when they were new ... So I think it is about time to get a couple of new CGA-S007E batteries.

It does no harm to be a little bit paranoid.
.


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## march.brown (Feb 3, 2010)

I have never had to dispose of any Li-Ion cells yet, so what do we do with the duff ones in the UK ? ... It looks as though I will now have to replace a couple for my camera.
.


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## Jay R (Feb 3, 2010)

All public dumps ( sorry, 'Refuge Disposal Sites' ) have a bin for batteries now. There is also a recent change in the law that states that if you sell more than 32Kg of batteries a year, you have to have a recycle bin available to customers.
I hate to think what would happen if you put a half charged, non protected cell in a bin with a bunch of other batteries. Perhaps after a few fires, the sign on the bin will change to "No Lithium Cells"


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## march.brown (Feb 3, 2010)

Jay R said:


> All public dumps ( sorry, 'Refuge Disposal Sites' ) have a bin for batteries now. There is also a recent change in the law that states that if you sell more than 32Kg of batteries a year, you have to have a recycle bin available to customers.
> I hate to think what would happen if you put a half charged, non protected cell in a bin with a bunch of other batteries. Perhaps after a few fires, the sign on the bin will change to "No Lithium Cells"


 
I suppose that a large lead-acid battery thrown into a skip could cause problems if it landed on a few unwanted Li-Ions ... Would the Li-Ions still be a source of possible danger if they were discharged or unable to hold their charge ?


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## Jay R (Feb 3, 2010)

I was thinking more of the jumble of cells causing a short.


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## TooManyGizmos (Feb 3, 2010)

So...... back to the original question and thread title :

*If unprotected 18650 batteries are dangerous, why are they on sale ?
---------------------------------------------------------
Have we answered the question as to whether they are dangerous or not - if used responsibly ?

*Or does this need to continue ? Where do we go from here ?


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## Magic Matt (Feb 3, 2010)

45/70 said:


> I think this brings up a very common misunderstanding here on the Forums. Manufacturers do not sell Li-Ion cells to our group, or any other consumer, period. There is too much of a liability to do so.



That's the same for most manufacturers though. Even Sony don't sell their CCD chips direct, they sell them to companies that use them to manufacture equipment that we then buy. Sometimes that's no more than a fancy plastic case and an interface chip (as in the case of some webcams).

If the company buying these odd cells is then producing another product - ie shrink wrapping the cell and putting a circuit on it, then they too are a manufacturer... unless of course the manufacturer they are buying from is providing that additional manufacturing service. 

As a consumer I really don't care what they do. I see a product for sale that does a job. I expect it to do that job safely. If 'MegaFire' decide to buy up cells from 'supa-chem' and slap a shrink wrap and a protection ship on it, then that's no concern of mine.

All involved in the process have a responsibility to ensure that the product they provide comes with adequate warnings - ie that the consumer is informed of the risk imposed by the normal use of their product, and the potential dagers from obvious mishandling that is likely to occur (such as leaving in direct sunlight, dropping it, etc). That information must be present and correct on the product being sold, the product must be safe if used in the way the packaging instructs. If that information isn't there, it's actually classed as a 'marketing defect'. It's then down to the retailer to prove that it was reasonable for it not to be their responsibility, and it moves up the chain.

The question would be down to whose responsibility it was to warn of the dangers. The manufacturer had a duty to warn the distributor of the dangers imposed by their product, and that distributor had a duty to pass that information on to the retailer, who had a duty to pass that information on to the consumer.

The real point is that the end product should really have good clear instructions and warnings as to the consequences of mishandling. I've bought plenty of 'OEM packaged' products, but even those have datasheets etc. with clear warnings as to safe handling etc. I expect the same of all products, and to the best of my knowledge it's actually a legal requirement.




45/70 said:


> That's why we here on the Forums do what we do, try to educate folks that are new to Li-Ions, on their proper safe handling and care.



It is very much appreciated, believe me. I have learnt more than I ever thought was possible about the safe use of Li-Ion cells... though I am still uncomfortable with using them. I certainly wouldn't put them in a product I had modified without testing thoroughly using a power supply etc. first, whereas previously I may have just chucked them in and tested.

I worry about people innocently buying and using these products without having read forums such as this one. It shouldn't be down to forums like this to be teaching people how to use a product safely though, especially when we're talking such potential for harm. 



45/70 said:


> Keep in mind, the possibility that if these distributors did make a big deal out of Li-Ion safety precautions, it might attract a lot of attention from the wrong people. I sure would hate to see that happen. It already has with a lot of postal/shipping services refusing to transport loose Li-Ion cells. I've said this before, my biggest fear is an all out ban on loose Li-Ion cells.



Absolutely - but then, how much of that reaction would be due to a lack of information. Fireworks are dangerous, and explode, but we sell those responsibly in the high street all the time. You can still order spray paints and various chemicals in propellant cans - we have sensible precations for shipping those too. Yes, there may well be new restrictions on shipping and packaging Li-Ion cells, but then that's sensible isn't it? Imagine a scenario where somebody packages Li-Ion cells loose in a jiffy bag and they shorted out in the bag (I had some NiMH arrive that way) - the postal worker could have had serious injury. I agree totally with refusing to ship loose Li-Ion cells - they should be in a suitable container that offers adequate protection when shipping, in which case they would no longer be loose.


JayR and march.brown - all HWRCs (Household Waste Recycling Centres) ask that batteries are protected from shorting when you dispose of them (not that people remember). It's generally accepted practice that you cover the contacts with a piece of sticky tape. The same applies to collection bins in stores, although many stores that are legally obliged to have a bin do not have one (I'm thinking of several Asda/Walmart and Morrisons stores in particular).




TooManyGizmos said:


> So...... back to the original question and thread title :
> 
> *If unprotected 18650 batteries are dangerous, why are they on sale ?
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> ...



I think the thread has been going in an interesting direction personally. Where do we go from here... possibly to answer the question as to what would be acceptable to the majority by way of adequate information without making people afraid of the product, but that's only the direction I am personally interested in, I'm sure others have differing opinions!

Then again, given the size of this post... :shock:


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## 45/70 (Feb 4, 2010)

Magic Matt said:


> As a consumer I really don't care what they do. I see a product for sale that does a job. I expect it to do that job safely. If 'MegaFire' decide to buy up cells from 'supa-chem' and slap a shrink wrap and a protection ship on it, then that's no concern of mine.




Matt, first let me remind you again, that "loose Li-Ion cells" (which is actually the term for individual Li-Ion cells that for whatever reason, are not used in the building of battery packs) were never intended to be sold as they are, by the manufacturers of these cells. The only time manufacturers like Sanyo, or Panasonic for example, will sell "loose" cells, is if the buyer is going to produce "packs" from these cells, and can show them the means by which they intend to provide protection circuitry for these "packs". Again, manufacturers like these will not sell "loose" Li-Ion cells to individuals, except under the aforementioned condition. Also, to my knowledge, there are no manufacturers that supply "loose" Li-Ion cells with a protection circuit to these buyers. In other words, "loose" Li-Ion cells, with a protection circuit, from companies that actually construct Li-Ion cells from the ground up, do not exist.

Most of the "loose" Li-Ion cells that we here on the forums buy, are from China, probably better than 99%. While most of the conditions I mentioned above may, or may not apply to the Chinese cell manufacturers, I feel certain, that in China, this is optional. The rules of consumer protection etc. are for the most part nonexistent. So, you have distributors (also in China) that buy up these "loose" cells and want to sell them at an attractive price. The best way for them to do this is to skip the consumer protection "package" and just move the cells to market, and that's just what they do.

While I agree it would be better if these distributors did as you suggest, it would surely add additional cost to the cells, and since they wish to continue to supply these cells at an attractive price, I seriously doubt they will. In addition, being based in China, I doubt they worry much about liability issues, and therefore feel they are not under any pressure to comply with any suggested safety warnings, or much anything else, for that matter.

It is also important to understand, that "loose" Li-Ion sales to individuals like ourselves, are limited to hobbyists, and perhaps a few other very small groups that use them in a "custom" manner, and are not general consumer offerings. I would imagine that these "loose" Li-Ion sales make up a totally insignificant percentage of general battery sales from China, or anywhere else. To say they are "unpopular", would be an understatement. This doesn't add to any incentive to comply with your suggestions.

I'm with ya Matt, but unless there is some sort of intervention, as I mentioned in my previous post, I just don't see it happening.

Dave


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## enforcer (Mar 13, 2010)

recDNA said:


> That begs the question - in event of a lithium fire what should be used to extinguish it? Is there a safe type of fire extinguisher or a bucket of sand or what?



Only a Metal based fire extinguisher is safe to use(Class D type).

Graphite based or copper based, are the best type of metal fire extinguishers to use on lithium or lithium-alloy fires.

They don't come cheap though: http://www.safelincs.co.uk/Metal-Fire-Extinguisher/ £260 costs an arm and a leg to pay. 
However I think it's possible to get them in smaller sizes and cheaper.


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## enforcer (Mar 13, 2010)

Mr Happy said:


> Sand is applicable.



Sand is not really suitable, as it can absorb or retains moisture which the heat in the fire rapidly turns to steam. Which could scatter burning material over a wider area.
If sand is used as a resort, should always be applied with a long handled shovel at arm's length to protect you from flash burns.

So dirt or gravel is better.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 13, 2010)

enforcer said:


> Sand is not really suitable, as it can absorb or retains moisture which the heat in the fire rapidly turns to steam. Which could scatter burning material over a wider area.
> If sand is used as a resort, should always be applied with a long handled shovel at arm's length to protect you from flash burns.
> 
> So dirt or gravel is better.



Well, OK, but there is not that much heat in a combusting consumer sized lithium battery. And the sand in a fire bucket kept indoors is likely to be dry (it has always been dry and free running when I have examined it).


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## enforcer (Mar 13, 2010)

Mr Happy said:


> Well, OK, but there is not that much heat in a combusting consumer sized lithium battery. And the sand in a fire bucket kept indoors is likely to be dry (it has always been dry and free running when I have examined it).



True, unless your charging loads of 18650 batteries.


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 13, 2010)

enforcer said:


> Only a Metal based fire extinguisher is safe to use(Class D type).
> 
> Graphite based or copper based, are the best type of metal fire extinguishers to use on lithium or lithium-alloy fires.
> 
> ...



That problem -- virtually no *practical *extinguishers work -- is why we said a bucket of (dry) sand is the best affordable option for most people. If you charger setup will fit in a LiPo Sack, that's another option. My multi cell balance charging episodes won't fit even in the largest size. They are not like your LiPo battery with the built in tap.

I am pretty sure if I was right there when a Li-Ion started to go into runaway while charging on top of some bricks I use, I would hold my breath, turn my head, leave the area, and call 911, and then my homeowner insurance agent.

If I was in an apartment, condo, etc., I would probably charge near a window, and if it looked like a runaway was starting, I would turn my head, make one quick attempt to grab the bricks under the cells, and try tossing it out the window (if safe outside). If that failed, I would go to the previous strategy. It is a lot easier to replace a glass window than remove all the smoke/fire damage. I may consider not using Lithium Cobalt Ion cells in that environment. Probably would use the safe chemistry ones.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 13, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> I am pretty sure if I was right there when a Li-Ion started to go into runaway while charging on top of some bricks I use, I would hold my breath, turn my head, leave the area, and call 911, and then my homeowner insurance agent.


I think the first thing you should do is cut the power to the charger. This action stops "fanning the flames" as it were. Secondly, don't panic. Just carefully tip your bucket of dry sand over the whole thing. Thirdly, if you are charging in your garage (a good plan), then open the garage door to vent the fumes.

Lastly, go outside and consider the situation. If it looks like things are going bad, then call 911.


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 13, 2010)

I am thinking that the poor maligned unprotected 18650 is getting a bad rap. I would rather work with an unprotected Li-Ion than a so called protected one. Who can really guarantee the protection circuits? Safe handling of Li-Ions is the answer. Use good quality unprotected Li-Ions, Panasonic,LG, Sony, etc and handle them with care. Monitor them closely. Use a DMM, and other testing devices to check their condition over time. Use the information available here on CPF before you even think about using any Li-Ion, protected or not.

Bill


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## march.brown (Mar 14, 2010)

Don't just check the voltage , touch the cell regularly to roughly check the temperature ... Don't wait till the cell starts "steaming" before taking action.


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## LeifUK (Mar 14, 2010)

Bullzeyebill said:


> I am thinking that the poor maligned unprotected 18650 is getting a bad rap. I would rather work with an unprotected Li-Ion than a so called protected one. Who can really guarantee the protection circuits? Safe handling of Li-Ions is the answer. Use good quality unprotected Li-Ions, Panasonic,LG, Sony, etc and handle them with care. Monitor them closely. Use a DMM, and other testing devices to check their condition over time. Use the information available here on CPF before you even think about using any Li-Ion, protected or not.
> 
> Bill



I'd rather use a torch (flashlight) with a protection circuit, and a battery with a protection circuit, and a charger with a protection circuit. That way if one layer of protection fails, I'm still safe. The rechargeable lithium batteries I use in my camera, ipod etc are safe due to good design and high quality control. Are AW cells any better than the stuff you get from DX?


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## Mr Happy (Mar 14, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> Are AW cells any better than the stuff you get from DX?


I understand AW cells are manufactured for him to his specifications and go through proper QA testing (they carry his name and reputation). I do not believe the same can be said for cells from DX.


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## IMSabbel (Mar 14, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> So...... back to the original question and thread title :
> 
> *If unprotected 18650 batteries are dangerous, why are they on sale ?
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> ...



Gasoline is dangerous
Knives are dangerous
Cars are dangerous
Motorcycles are dangerous
Chainsaws are dangerous
Ladders are dangerous
Water is dangerous

If you want to remove all kinds of danger from your life, the only way is euthanize yourself.

Just to put it into perspective: With an annual production of several hundred million cells, there has not been a _single_ count of dead or severe injury by a failing 18650 cell. 

So just dont by into the hysterics.

PS: Yeah, there is stuff like the TK-Monster explosion that could hurt somebody badly. But that is not the fault of the cell. NO more than its the fault of a Chainsaw if you try to shave with it.


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## march.brown (Mar 14, 2010)

.
IMSabbel said ... "If you want to remove all kinds of danger from your life, the only way is euthanize yourself."

Euthanasia is quite dangerous too ! ... Why is there a "Youth" in euthanasia when it more often involves the older people ?

Oh God ! ... I'm in that age group.

I started this thread , so no suggestions please .........
.


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## McAllan (Mar 14, 2010)

Gasoline is dangerous too but that's not banned.

Guess you can compare the unprotected LiIon cells with gasoline. Using unprotected LiIons is like carrying gasoline a sugar bowl. That's not recommended either.

The unprotected cells are clearly meant for using in packages where it's up to the guy who build the packages to provide the protection and balancing.
Using them as single cells you can look over the balancing as you can just top them of individually once in a while is used in a light with more than one cell.
In a certain way you can say that some here carries gasoline in sugar bowls instead of a gas can.


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## Ragiska (Mar 14, 2010)

IMSabbel said:


> Just to put it into perspective: With an annual production of several hundred million cells, there has not been a _single_ count of dead or severe injury by a failing 18650 cell.



actually there have been many hundreds world wide outside of the flashlight community (which is minuscule compared to general 18650 usage). and those failures were with engineered battery systems, not loose cells, which are an order of magnitude more dangerous in the hands of rechargable battery noobs who don't even know what a DMM is.


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## 45/70 (Mar 14, 2010)

McAllan said:


> The unprotected cells are clearly meant for using in packages where it's up to the guy who build the packages to provide the protection and balancing.




I think your analogy is a bit misleading. Li-Ion cells in general, were never intended to be used individually. The protection circuits are added by distributors, not the manufacturers, as most of them (all?) don't sell individual cells, except to pack makers. The exception here, is distributors like xxxxxFire et al, that buy up loose cells from manufacturers in China, and then sell them separately with, or without a protection circuit which *they* add onto the cell.

The problem with protected cells is that the addition of the protection circuit is, in itself a hazard. Protection circuits are prone to failure and may, or may not actually work, giving users a false sense of security. I might add here that the added protection circuit is provided to protect the cell, not the user. Anyone with a beginner's knowledge of protected Li-Ion cells should know that the protection circuit should never be tripped. It's there as a safeguard for the cell, not as a convenience to the user.

And that thin metal strip (+) running down the side of the cell, with only a very thin piece of plastic tape separating it from the cell body (-), and the shrink wrap separating it from the flashlight body (-), is all that's preventing a short circuit, or . Have you ever dropped your light, or skinned the wrapper, when installing your cells?

With proper care and knowledge, unprotected cells could be considered safer than protected ones. I'm not advocating that those unfamiliar with Li-Ion cells start out with unprotected cells, but really, they are no more dangerous than protected cells, with proper knowledge of how to use them. You could say that Li-Ion cells with the added protection circuit have additional hazards "built in", compared to unprotected cells. 

Also, I'm not sure what you're getting at regarding balancing. Balancing protected cells in no way differs from balancing unprotected cells.

Dave


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 15, 2010)

45/70, +1!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup:

Bill


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## McAllan (Mar 15, 2010)

45/70 said:


> I think your analogy is a bit misleading. Li-Ion cells in general, were never intended to be used individually. The protection circuits are added by distributors, not the manufacturers, as most of them (all?) don't sell individual cells, except to pack makers. The exception here, is distributors like xxxxxFire et al, that buy up loose cells from manufacturers in China, and then sell them separately with, or without a protection circuit which *they* add onto the cell.



Can't individual cells be considered being a pack?
After all that's the biggest problem with LiIon. Every time you buy a new camera etc. you need one again buy new batteries, chargers, everything. If only we could get standardized forms. An why not the cell with protection?



45/70 said:


> The problem with protected cells is that the addition of the protection circuit is, in itself a hazard. Protection circuits are prone to failure and may, or may not actually work, giving users a false sense of security. I might add here that the added protection circuit is provided to protect the cell, not the user. Anyone with a beginner's knowledge of protected Li-Ion cells should know that the protection circuit should never be tripped. It's there as a safeguard for the cell, not as a convenience to the user.



Can't strongly disagree here. Except for the over discharge protection. A lot of stuff seems to rely on that one. And I believe the circuits are far less likely to fail than you're implying. You just have to admit nothing is 100% sure. But when is it good enough?
As an aside I tell you that I'm relying on one. Lets just call it an item bought from DX. Although used with 3 NiMH with which it is perfect since it'll cut before any chance of a cell reversal and the cells for all purposes empty. Originally it used a Nokia knock-off battery but run time was much too short.



45/70 said:


> And that thin metal strip (+) running down the side of the cell, with only a very thin piece of plastic tape separating it from the cell body (-), and the shrink wrap separating it from the flashlight body (-), is all that's preventing a short circuit, or . Have you ever dropped your light, or skinned the wrapper, when installing your cells?



That's more hypothetical than practical if done properly. If manufactures allowed devices that take 18650 cell to accept cells that are 19655 or so then there's plenty of space for making a safe route to the positive terminal and a safety circuitry as good as many other packs.
Or (wonder why nobody thought of that) you can put the circuitry at the positive end of a flat top cell. Yes - more difficult and you still need a wire to go along to the negative end to provide power to the circuitry since I presume it's not safe to spot weld the negative connection to the side of the battery (they've made them with spot welding in mind at the ends). But the connection doesn't need to be insulated. And you'll need a top as a the positive terminal. So a little bit more difficult but much better technical wise.



45/70 said:


> With proper care and knowledge, unprotected cells could be considered safer than protected ones. I'm not advocating that those unfamiliar with Li-Ion cells start out with unprotected cells, but really, they are no more dangerous than protected cells, with proper knowledge of how to use them. You could say that Li-Ion cells with the added protection circuit have additional hazards "built in", compared to unprotected cells.



And the ones you buy today - protected or not. If you scratch the wrapping at the positive end you can short the cells. If designed properly a PCB at the positive end would greatly reduce that risk since an item in order to create a short will need to it at bigger distance - and of course you can design the PCB with that dual purpose in mind.


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## LeifUK (Mar 15, 2010)

IMSabbel said:


> Gasoline is dangerous
> Knives are dangerous
> Cars are dangerous
> Motorcycles are dangerous
> ...



It sounds like you have not read through the thread, as that point has been made several times. However, I guess the thread is long. So I give a brief answer as I see it. 

People know that petrol (gasoline) and knives are dangerous. We have regulations about the sale of petrol, such as requiring the use of special cans when buying in small quantities. We teach children not to play with knives, and restrict their sale to people over a certain age. And we force people to take car tests. These are all precautions to protect people. To sell unprotected Li cells without any warnings would be grossly irresponsible as people would not realise the very real dangers. Were they to go on sale in mon and pop stores, rest assured there would be serious injuries, and enough law suits to keep the legal profession in champagne and caviar for a long time. 



IMSabbel said:


> Just to put it into perspective: With an annual production of several hundred million cells, there has not been a _single_ count of dead or severe injury by a failing 18650 cell.
> 
> So just dont by into the hysterics.
> 
> PS: Yeah, there is stuff like the TK-Monster explosion that could hurt somebody badly. But that is not the fault of the cell. NO more than its the fault of a Chainsaw if you try to shave with it.



The vast bulk of Li cells are used in packs with protection circuits, and dedicated chargers with protection circuits. Very very few are and/or used sold loose. 

I don't understand your last point. The owner turned it on. Is that not expected use?


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## LeifUK (Mar 15, 2010)

45/70 said:


> The problem with protected cells is that the addition of the protection circuit is, in itself a hazard. Protection circuits are prone to failure and may, or may not actually work, giving users a false sense of security. I might add here that the added protection circuit is provided to protect the cell, not the user. Anyone with a beginner's knowledge of protected Li-Ion cells should know that the protection circuit should never be tripped. It's there as a safeguard for the cell, not as a convenience to the user.



That is the most topsy turvey logic I have ever read. I have heard the same argument justifying the riding of motorbikes without helmets. The truth is that helmet laws lead to significant reduction in head injuries among bike riders. 

The same would be true for Li cells. Your argument might apply to a small number of well educated people who take proper care of their cells. There are millions of Li packs in use and few problems due to high quality design and manufacture. What you say might apply to cheaply made protected cells i.e. the QC is so low that the protection circuits often do not work, and as you suggest, mislead people into taking risks. Perhaps that is what you meant. 

I think the problem is that a lot of these cells are from places like DX with crap QC. Were they to be made to the standards of the protected cells sold with cameras, quality would be high. 

As an side, it is not unheard of for third party camera batteries to catch fire while charging. I can recall a couple of accounts, where the fire brigade needed to intervene. That is why I would never buy third party Li batteries for a consumer good.


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## 45/70 (Mar 15, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> That is the most topsy turvey logic I have ever read. I have heard the same argument justifying the riding of motorbikes without helmets.



Motorcycle helmets have certain specifications that have to be met before they are approved for use. There are no such regulations for individual Li-Ion cell protection circuits. Would wrapping a paper towel around a motorcyclist's head work? Again, in case you are not aware, manufacturers of Li-Ion cells, do not make or sell protection circuits for individual Li-Ion cells. From their viewpoint, it is too much of a liability, and refuse to do so.



> The truth is that helmet laws lead to significant reduction in head injuries among bike riders.


I have a hard time with this comparison, although I agree. Here, there is no helmet requirement, but I wear one.  Protection circuits installed on individual Li-Ion cells is more of a custom application, as manufacturers do not approve of the sale of individual Li-Ion cells period, regardless of whether or not they have protection circuits installed.



> Your argument might apply to a small number of well educated people who take proper care of their cells.


Um, yes, that would, or should be the flashlight/torch community. 



> What you say might apply to cheaply made protected cells i.e. the QC is so low that the protection circuits often do not work, and as you suggest, mislead people into taking risks. Perhaps that is what you meant.


Yes, as you hopefully know, there is a big difference between, for example, AW cells, and xxxxxFire cells.



> I think the problem is that a lot of these cells are from places like DX with crap QC. Were they to be made to the standards of the protected cells sold with cameras, quality would be high.


Again, camera battery packs are built with the builder's plans for the means of protecting the packs, having been approved by the actual manufacturer of the cells before production. There is no such approval for individual cells, that distributors such as xxxxxFire, install their own protection circuit on. Remember, these are produced in China, not Japan, the UK, or the US. Good luck with any legal action. 

Back to my last post, my point is that physically, there are more components that can fail on a protected Li-Ion cell, than an unprotected cell. That is just the nature of the beast. The more components, the more likely a failure. In addition, the protection PCB's, being an "add on", to cells not intended for them, are more vulnerable to dropping etc. by their very nature.

I am not saying that unprotected cells are better, just that safety wise, they are closer than you might think. I also consider "_a small number of well educated people who take proper care of their cells_" much preferable to "Big Brother" intervention, as well. Reading through the forums though, I find many are still clueless as to the proper care and maintenance of Li-Ion cells. Unfortunately, I see an outright ban of individual Li-Ion cells being preferable to the "powers that be", as opposed to regulation.  Then we'll be scrounging around breaking apart laptop and tool packs, and _all_ cells will be unprotected. I'm not supportive of that, at all. 

Dave


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## LeifUK (Mar 17, 2010)

45/70 said:


> Motorcycle helmets have certain specifications that have to be met before they are approved for use. There are no such regulations for individual Li-Ion cell protection circuits.



Earlier I said the following: 

"What you say might apply to cheaply made protected cells i.e. the QC is so low that the protection circuits often do not work, and as you suggest, mislead people into taking risks. Perhaps that is what you meant. "!

It does indeed seem to be what you meant. 

I would say that the protection circuits in batteries for consumer goods from established names such as Nikon are of significant value, and are not worse than useless, or marginally useful. As I have said, I have read several first hand accounts of 3rd party Li cells for cameras (Nikon) catching fire during charging, probably due to over-charging. I have never heard of a fire when charging a Nikon brand battery. My guess (no evidence, just a guess) is that the number of Nikon brand batteries in Nikon cameras far outnumbers the number of cheap 3rd party units. 

Of course if you have statistics for how often batteries from big names such as Nikon fail, that would be of interest.


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## 45/70 (Mar 17, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> Earlier I said the following:
> "What you say might apply to cheaply made protected cells i.e. the QC is so low that the protection circuits often do not work, and as you suggest, mislead people into taking risks. Perhaps that is what you meant. "!
> 
> It does indeed seem to be what you meant.



Yes, fair enough. 

My concern is flashlight/torch oriented. What I think possibly you, and I know others on the Forums don't understand, is the difference between a Nikon pack's protection circuitry, which is more than likely well thought out, tested etc., as compared to the homemade type that xxxxxFire et al installs onto individual cells, that were never meant by the actual manufacturer, to have a protection circuit installed onto the bottom, made in somebody's garage when they aren't at their day job. I will exclude AW from this last group, as whoever does his cells seems to be on top of things. :thumbsup:

There are two points that, to me anyway, are safety concerns here. First, the protection circuit installation on the bottom of the cell. This is a vulnerable location to mount a PCB. It can be crushed, torn, or broken, any number of ways, leading to the circuit's failure. I don't have any suggestion as to a better place to mount the PCB, but then again, neither do the manufacturers of the cells. That more than likely has a lot to do with why the actual cell manufacturers don't manufacture, or sell individual cells with protection circuits installed. 

The second safety concern, is that a Nikon pack's protection circuitry is tested and designed from the ground up for a specific device, with specific demands, and is tuned to the battery pack. The circuits provided by xxxxxFire et al, that the guy makes in his garage, most likely are composed of similar components, but at best, they are not designed for a specific light's use of the cell, or battery. If they are, then there are going to be some lights in which the protection circuit works well, and many others that it really isn't suitable for. You can't make a catchall protection circuit that works for every application. Actually, you probably could, but the cost to manufacture it would likely be more than the cost of the bare cell.

And I'll say one more time, I am in no way suggesting that anybody use unprotected cells, rather than protected ones, in particular those new to Li-Ion cell use. I am just pointing out that with an unprotected cell, there are actually fewer things to go wrong, again, with a proper understanding of their use. You know the "small number of well educated people who take proper care of their cells" group. 

Dave


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## march.brown (Mar 18, 2010)

.
Instead of protecting the battery itself , would it be possible to ----

A/ ... Have a drop-in protection circuit that fits in the anode end of the torch ... This would be connected to the outer casing of the torch and would also be connected between the battery anode and the LED ... This would be the same as adding the protection circuit to the bottom of the battery and would eliminate the thin insulated metal strip connecting the protection circuit to the battery anode ... So the battery would have discharge protection/undervoltage protection taken care of ... Thermal (over-temperature) protection could be built in if required ... The insert needs only to be the same basic thickness as the one fitted to the bottom of the protected cells ... Since there would be less of these devices , they could be made from better quality components.

B/ ... Also a similar item to be inserted when charging , at the anode end of the battery ... A lead could be inserted between the negative end of the battery to the protection circuit to monitor charging voltage ... This protection circuit could even be built into any charger (even the cheapest) quite easily ... This circuit would protect against over voltage and excess charging current ... It would be possible to have different values of charging current protection to cater for the different capacities (18650 or 123)

These protection circuits would enable unprotected cells to be readily used ... There again , with care and experience , unprotected cells can be used anyway.

Unfortunately , this protection would not protect against the occasional Li-Ion cell falling into the chain-locker of a sailing boat and consequently having a short-circuit applied ... But you can't protect against every possible problem.

I don't know whether the above idea is viable , but it was just a thought.
.


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## march.brown (Mar 18, 2010)

.
I have a Panasonic camera and the battery is a rectangular one built from thick hard plastic ... The protection circuit is inside the plastic case and is not in the same vulnerable position as those on the 18650s etc.

It does worry me somewhat that , on protected Li-Ion cells , there is a thinly insulated length of metal strip running the length of the cell connecting the battery anode to the protection circuit ... I am beginning to wonder whether I should be using non-protected cells instead.

I take great care in charging my 18650s and check the off-load voltage regularly to ensure that they never go over 4.20 volts ... I also take great care when inserting the cells into my torches ... I never remove the torch head and replace it whilst the batteries are in ... I (so far) never over-discharge my cells and tend to err on the top-up charges rather than a full charge.

I also do not own any multi-Li-Ion devices , as I think that I am paranoid enough with just the single Li-Ion cell torches ... I even unscrew the torch end caps occasionally and listen for a hiss , just in case there in a slight build-up of pressure in the torch body.

I must admit though that the performance of the 18650 torches is worth the extra care and effort ... I still prefer the single AA for my EDC though as it is the right form factor for me ... I am slightly tempted now by a single 123 torch with a primary cell as it could be left alone till 2019 and still be useable ... Mind you , by then I would be 81 and might have to get a torch mount for a Zimmer Frame ... Time will tell.
.


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## 45/70 (Mar 18, 2010)

I don't think your suggestions are very practical, march. The ultimate solution, thinking about it in the way you're looking at it, is to just buy lights that have the protection built in, rather than adding an additional component.

Owning these type lights, is why half of my Li-Ion cells are unprotected cells. That and owning a couple proper chargers, and I'm good to go. 

Dave


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## LeifUK (Mar 18, 2010)

45/70 said:


> Yes, fair enough.
> 
> My concern is flashlight/torch oriented. What I think possibly you, and I know others on the Forums don't understand, is the difference between a Nikon pack's protection circuitry, which is more than likely well thought out, tested etc., as compared to the homemade type that xxxxxFire et al installs onto individual cells, that were never meant by the actual manufacturer, to have a protection circuit installed onto the bottom, made in somebody's garage when they aren't at their day job. I will exclude AW from this last group, as whoever does his cells seems to be on top of things. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...



Actually I do understand that Nikon et al make batteries specifically designed for a given product, and that the quality is high. That is why they usually have a specific form factor, and simply cannot be used in other devices. And they have a dedicated charger. These measures ensure that Nikon cannot be sued for someone accidentally using/charging the cell in the wrong device. That also explains why they are expensive, though cost is also due to being sold through high street retailers. In addition the product can have protection circuitry built in thereby achieving very high standards of safety. 

The reason for my disagreeing with your earlier posts was that you did not qualify what you meant, and simply stated that protected cells are worse than non-protected. I do not disagree that a lot of Chinese stuff is poop, for want of a better word. That is why I have chosen not to use rechargeable Lithium cells. 

I have no first hand knowledge of AW cells. But I still wonder about how easy it is to break the protection. 

The problem is clearly that Chinese makers have to bodge unprotected cells, which were designed for use in packs, but which are already almost filling the available space in the torch (flashlight). It would be nice if manufacturers produced protected lithium cells with the form factors suitable for torches. But, either they concluded that demand would be too low to justify it, or possibly that even with protection, it would open them to law suits, as then their beautifully made cell could be used in a poop torch, or charged in a poop charger. So they would have to design their own form factor, and then get torch makers to sign up to the required standards. That would be too expensive by half.

But your key point that (poor quality) protected cells may lull the user into a false sense of security leading to accidents is no doubt a good one.


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## IMSabbel (Mar 18, 2010)

Ragiska said:


> actually there have been many hundreds world wide outside of the flashlight community (which is minuscule compared to general 18650 usage). and those failures were with engineered battery systems, not loose cells, which are an order of magnitude more dangerous in the hands of rechargable battery noobs who don't even know what a DMM is.



Give me a single link to a casualty or case of bodily harm bigger than "ouch i burned my finger"

And those were engineered battery packs used by people for years, with no care for the battery at all

Which in many of the devices sits right next to the hot parts of the motherboard, getting steamed at 60C+ during use.


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## Ragiska (Mar 18, 2010)

IMSabbel said:


> Give me a single link to a casualty or case of bodily harm bigger than "ouch i burned my finger"
> 
> And those were engineered battery packs used by people for years, with no care for the battery at all
> 
> Which in many of the devices sits right next to the hot parts of the motherboard, getting steamed at 60C+ during use.



http://www.techtree.com/India/News/Exploding_Battery_Kills_Chinese_Man/551-98463-547.html

http://www.lifeofguangzhou.com/node_10/node_37/node_82/2007/07/05/118360232622937.shtml 

http://www.neowin.net/news/man-killed-after-phone-explosion 

http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2009/08/26/bc-overheating-laptop-fire-death-vancouver.html 

this article cites several deaths to his recall, including the above:
http://www.boston.com/business/tech...th_man_sues_hewlett_packard_over_laptop_fire/

with the most casual of searches you find hundreds (if not thousands) of reports of house and business fires started by lithium batteries. several fires started in airplane cargo holds led to current air transportation restrictions.


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