# I dont get it. High power could be smaller...



## badinstincts (May 10, 2006)

Ok, I fly electric airplanes at well over 300watts, the batteries are thunder power 2100mah prolites configured in 3s which makes it a 11.1v batt, 12.6 fully charged, usually 10.5v under full constant load (31.5amps)..
Well this battery provides almost 350watts constant for 3-4 minutes... So what the hell am i missing here. these packs should be able to fit in a large mag easily, 2 in parellel wouldn't be a problem, or even a couple of the 1320 prolites would work, and these are tested and work well for many many cycles.
So why is it so hard to make a small ULTRA powerful flashlight? I just dont get it. You guys are still using these OUTDATED nimh and nicd cells which are obsolete in my airplane hobby...
Jesus, I guess I will have to be the first to try to make a small 1KW+ psycho crazy small flashlight that will make people cry... Although it will only be useful for 4-8 minutes depending on how many packs I will use.
All I need to know is can I just directly connect my batts to the bulb, or do these high power HID and Xenon short arc need some chips or anything??? Making a switch will be easy and making the flashlight will also be easy, getting rid of the heat, I guess I'd use a heatsink from a motor and bend it into shape, I just need to find bulbs that can handle the power...
So to sum it up, all I want to know is...
Can I just connect the batts directly to the bulbs and where can I get these 1KW bulbs? or at least 500W or close? Preferably a couple of HID and a couple of Xenon Short arc for crazy beams...


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## badinstincts (May 10, 2006)

Hmm, the Xenon HID bulbs look weird, the bulb is between the 2 poles, + - ... So what kind of reflector would you use? I want it to be a tight spot... perhaps I would have to have it sideways and have a black spot in the middle, unless the reflector can take care of that....


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## bwaites (May 10, 2006)

I'm confused badinstincts. Most of us here that build highpower incandescents are building lights with 100 watt lamps! 

If you are talking about using 1 or 3 or 5 watt LED's then that's a different game and requires quite a bit of expertise.

I don't know what type of 1W lamps you are talking about.

As far as using sticks or LiIon or Lipo cells, it's been considered, but no one has stepped out and done it for multiple reasons. If you can pull it off, you'll be the first!

BTW, might want to hang around a while and learn a thing or two about light design!

Good Luck!!

Bill


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## badinstincts (May 10, 2006)

OOps, I meant 1KW... It seems quite simple to me... Hmm, I guess I need something called a ballast for these xenons...


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## Sway (May 10, 2006)

HID and Xenon Short Arc lamps require an igniter and ballast to strike and maintain the arc, wiring them direct to the battery like a regular incandescent bulb will not work.

Later
Kelly


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## Icebreak (May 10, 2006)

bwaites said:


> As far as using sticks or LiIon or Lipo cells, it's been considered, but no one has stepped out and done it for multiple reasons. If you can pull it off, you'll be the first!


Say, what? Now I'm confused.


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## bwaites (May 10, 2006)

Just as a word of caution, HID and Xenon Short Arc lamps require a SUBSTANTIAL voltage to get them started. Not knowing what you are doing could cost you a lot of money, not to mention a fire or two!!

There ARE reasons almost no one has use LiPo power packs for lights!

Bill


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## bwaites (May 10, 2006)

Icebreak, I'm talking about LiPo mostly. LiIon cells won't handle the amperages he is talking about, so I am assuming he is using LiPo packs.

Bill


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## badinstincts (May 10, 2006)

Do you guys understand that Li Ion are garbage compared to Lipos... Li Ion can only provide soooo little current, where lipos can provide more current than nimh or nicd of equal weight and size, nowadays, a lot more...


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## LEDcandle (May 10, 2006)

He prob meant 1kw..
Well one of our members built a 600w spotlight using an aircraft landing light and LiPoly cells I believe. LiPoly are expensive to boot. 

I don't exactly know how the Thunder Power cells are sized individually. Anyway, the mag tube is quite tight actually; 4AAs across is the max it'll take. A thicker cell like the CBP1650 only fits 3-across with boring.

Anyhow, if you are aiming for 12v, there is a limit to how powerful your torch is gonna be. If you are looking at HID or short-arc, you will need a ballast, and that is sure to increase the size. 

The USL and pocket rocket are very bright small lights already. Have you come across them yet?

P/S We don't use Li-ons in high current applications. We use NiMh because it has good current capabilities, although it self discharges, and it is affordable. 

We know about Li-Poly and as I mentioned above, it has been used in the 600w light. Just that your average modder sticks to the lower and mid-end mods.


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## badinstincts (May 10, 2006)

yea i just saw something that said it needs 80k volts to ignite... I'm sure I can figure that out, wouldn't be too hard, a few capacitors or whatever, i guess I'd have to learn how to make the jolt, using a few circuits and stuff... but it still would be a lot cheaper and MUCH more powerful than what is out there now... Just gotta find the right bulbs and reflectors...


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## badinstincts (May 10, 2006)

its just a little bigger than 4 AA batts together, a little wider I think. Not 100% sure, I dont have any AA with me at work and my batts are at home... But I have a feeling it would fit. a 3s pack that is, 2 of them should... So, if I am not able to provide a 80V start, what other bulb options do I have?


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## HayJab (May 10, 2006)

I would like to see a really small HID. I don't care if it only has 5 minutes of run-time. Considering how hot it's likely to get, 5 minutes of run-time is probably excessive.

HayJab so states...


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## badinstincts (May 10, 2006)

Oh, cant I just get a ballast from the car Xenon kits on ebay. I'll see what voltages they provide for ignition. Wow I see it coming now. 2-4 or more KW Xenon Short Arc from Brooklyn, NYC will see it for sure... hehehhe, I'll be waving it like a maniac.... hahahah

I'mma need to order more packs to put in parallel, I'm guessing these xenon short arcs operate at 20-30V as it stated "min/max current 70/85" for a 2000w bulb, so 2000/85=25.53 I'll probably stick with 21-25 as that is what a 6s pack will give me. Thats 6 packs (6s3p), hmm, getting big, but still the POWERRRRR.....


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## andrewwynn (May 11, 2006)

Small.. Bright is on the horizon.

There are a bunch of reasons why what you describe isn't 'out there yet'.. one of the main reasons is that there are no convenient hosts that will hold even a 3s LiPO pack... the standard width of a LiPO pack is 35mm.. the inside dimension of a maglite is 34mm inside..That's the main issue right there. 

Another issue is that low voltage lamps just don't output a lot of power.. there is too much losses from current and resistance with high watt, low voltage.. so the likes of the 'larryk 12'.. made from aforementioned 600W ACL (aircraft landing light).. it's a sight to see.. but it's not 'small'.. even with the baddest LiPO packs.. an 8s pack couldn't hold voltage with 23A.. your '31A' above is not constant, no 2100 LiPO pack will hold 31A constant that i'm aware of.. the '12C' tanic (sp) packs LarryK used for his light wouldn't hold voltage 'til he doubled up to 8s2P. 

Now.. i've been toying with a 4S 2AH pack that is 35mm square by 100mm long.. it can handle about 300-400W.. but there aren't any 300-400W lamps that run at only 14.4V.. you'd have to put like 2 or 3 in parallel, and then you have a big head with a bunch of reflectors? 

Solutions.. more series cells... or a boost ckt.. but good luck getting one that can power hundreds of watts.. 

Basically ... find a lamp at a voltage that is reasonable and figure out a host. it is 'that simple' .. being vague as saying 'i want bright'.. well.. find something that looks like a possibility and work from there. 

-awr


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## LEDcandle (May 11, 2006)

badinstincts said:


> Oh, cant I just get a ballast from the car Xenon kits on ebay. I'll see what voltages they provide for ignition. Wow I see it coming now. 2-4 or more KW Xenon Short Arc from Brooklyn, NYC will see it for sure... hehehhe, I'll be waving it like a maniac.... hahahah
> 
> I'mma need to order more packs to put in parallel, I'm guessing these xenon short arcs operate at 20-30V as it stated "min/max current 70/85" for a 2000w bulb, so 2000/85=25.53 I'll probably stick with 21-25 as that is what a 6s pack will give me. Thats 6 packs (6s3p), hmm, getting big, but still the POWERRRRR.....



See, in the end outright power can't be too small at this point in time; I'd like to see you fit a car ballast in a Mag. 

If you just want the fun of outright power, get one of 'em tank searchlights (aka independence day lasers); just to see the killer beam. It's not really portable but heck, its the output that matters 

Here's the link :-
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/92396&highlight=tank

There are a lot of crazy lights and mods in CPF, some threads have been buried so deep. Chances are a lot of things have already been done. Take a look around and read up some old threads.


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## badinstincts (May 11, 2006)

Whoa dude, your way outta line. why dont you try rcgroups.com and do some research on the thunderpower prolites. You will clearly see that almost everyone uses them at 15C Constant. They are 50Amp burst for 10seconds, and guess what they dont puff or get overheated. I fly my planes on these very packs pushing 30+ amps, especially on verticals (unlimited I might add). The prolites are fairly new, but hey 20C lipos have been out for a few months already, and guess what they work (at least the tp prolites do)... I can tell you with confidence as I fly full throttle my whole flight for 5-8 minutes pulling 30 amps on this very pack and it still takes back 2100+mah... I dont know where you got your info, but its outdated...
 



andrewwynn said:


> Small.. Bright is on the horizon.
> 
> There are a bunch of reasons why what you describe isn't 'out there yet'.. one of the main reasons is that there are no convenient hosts that will hold even a 3s LiPO pack... the standard width of a LiPO pack is 35mm.. the inside dimension of a maglite is 34mm inside..That's the main issue right there.
> 
> ...


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## badinstincts (May 11, 2006)

why do you guys constantly refer to the mag, as if it was the only flashlight that existed. I dont need to use a mag, heck I can build a flashlight from scratch, shesh. I obviously know that a car ballast wont fit in a mag, but once again it wont be in a mag, its going to be a custom made flashlight that is actually portable, (wont fit in your pocket) but will beat the crap out of every single flashlight out there... 1kw-4kw the size of a kumkang or so...

oh your probably thinking waterproof or something, not this, unless the parts can handle water which i doubt, or at least a manufacterer will take interest in actually doing this and make a real case for it...

ohh i might as well give you an idea of what tp prolites can give you
a 3s 2100 pack, honestly i get 300Watts from it constantly, maybe 325 for the first minute or 2, then 300 for the next 2 minutes and then 275 for the last minute or 2.
SO:
6s pack = 600watts (21v w/load and i mean the whole 30-31.5amps)
6s2p = 1200 watts
6s3p = 1800 watts.
fine you want more voltage..
9s = 900 watts (31.5v w/load)
10s = 1000 watts
11s = 1100 watts
12s2p= 2400watts(42v w/load)
12s4p= 4800watts
35s=3600watts (122.5volts at 30amps)
i dont want to even go into the dimensions of the packs as they will still be small compared to huge spot lights...
you can just make any combination you want for the desired output, 
yes its only 4-8 minutes of crazy power, but you can have more than 1 pack and it only needs 1 hour to charge a pack or many (if the charger can handle it)... i'm not interested in running it for 30-60 minutes, hell the cops will be grinding my @$# if I did...


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## Icebreak (May 11, 2006)

bwaites said:


> Icebreak, I'm talking about LiPo mostly. LiIon cells won't handle the amperages he is talking about, so I am assuming he is using LiPo packs.
> 
> Bill



Gotcha.

Well, conceptually speaking, not experience; I would think an incandescent that wants 31.5 A to run would have one whale of a spike on startup. Maybe not the best thing to do to LiPos housed in a sealed metal tube. Even rated at 20C for 50 A bursts I don't think they will like Spike.

badinstincts -

May I introduce you to Spike and Sag? You probably already know Sag. Talking incandescents (HotWires) here. Spike and Sag are the HotWire mascot dogs and they do bite. About Spike...the larger the food bowl and the more you feed him the bigger he gets.

A cold filament has low resistance so it will draw a lot of current until it heats up. Once at operating temperatures, the resistance is higher and the current draw levels out.

So now we are talking about regulation to solve the problem. Sounds like you know plenty about that but don't forget about Spike if you design a circuit. Spike will wag his tail if you show him a leash and enjoys chewing through a chain-link fence.

6S3P TP2100 would be a fairly large pack in dimension. In a round housing, that's a small lantern...still easily purchased (gripable) but not really conventional flashlight thickness. That's OK too. Conventions, Schmoventions. [hmm...Single TP2100-3S Mag2D85]

What about point source? More on that later. I'm thinking for what you want to do that you are correct in considering HID. But a 300 W small flashlight? Big challenge. A 2000 W small flashlight? We may need to consult a metallurgist.

Electric flying RCs have been continuously developed for more than half of a century and have a massive fan/participant/knowledge base. Hyper-modified torches are in the infancy of development. Both sciences can borrow concepts from each other. 

Yet, they are very different animals. If they weren't, I'd have a small hanger in my shirt pocket that could launch a tiny 5W LED torch that would hover above my head for six hours then auto-land before end of runtime.

- Jeff


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## 270winchester (May 11, 2006)

badinstincts said:


> Whoa dude, your way outta line. why dont you try rcgroups.com and do some research on the thunderpower prolite



badinstincts:

I'm gonna be nice here.

I suggest you stick around a little longer and observe before you start accusing the likes of bwaites, sway, and andrew of being timid. Build us a light and prove us wrong, but it's easy to be a armchair lighting addict than actually making something. 

Before you accuse me of being a wuss, I built a 12-cell pack running a 12volt lamp at 150 watts drawing in the neighborhood of 12 amps for 10 minutes straight and it worked quite well. I just have to make a new iteration of it this summer. I suppose it's wimpy compared to your proposed 1kw light but that much power in a small package is never an efficient way to make photons. WHen lipos come close to the value of high-current Nimh cells we will be more willing to experiment with it.

SO please, by all means build a flashlght from ground up and prove us wrong. Until then keep your rage in airplanes.

Nick


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## LEDcandle (May 11, 2006)

badinstincts said:


> these packs should be able to fit in a large mag easily,



Well I was assuming YOUR idea of small was a Mag, since you mentioned it. If it is spotlight size, I'm sure anyone of our veteran fellow CPFers with the moolah and some knowhow can put together a multi kW light too. It's just about getting the right volts, bulb and ballast and putting it together nicely. (that's putting it simply; probably won't be reliable/safe but anywayz....) 

Your gung-ho attitude in making a powerful light is commendable; but pls don't use it on us (and especially the veterans) in a sort of talk-down manner. I think it is a little disrespectful to a long-standing community of top gentleman.

A friendly and open exchange of ideas, on the other hand, is more than welcome. 

See any diff in these :-

"Woah u guys use OUTDATED batts. Why don't you do this and that. I don't understand. I'm gonna make a super light that beats the crap out of everything here. You guys need to go research more on xx batts"

vs 

"Hi all, I have a plan to make a killer multi kW light using LiPoly cells. I'm wondering why no one has done this before? (Or maybe you haven't seen all the projects that exist in CPF). Any ideas on a good bulb/reflector/host? Your ideas are most welcomed"


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## badinstincts (May 11, 2006)

alright, i'll give you guys a link to the lowest prices for these lipo packs. Yes some places sell them for stupid prices but we on rcgroups have found the lowest prices and then some... (pricematch guarantee, hehehe) but i'll give you that info tomorrow, i gotta throw some stuff into my car and get to sleep. all i'm trying to say here is that 1kw with lipos is easy and small, i'm just surprised you guys dont know this yet. no1 uses nimh in planes anymore, they are underpowered and heavy (well you dont really care about that) but still lipos have the juice now, i wouldn't buy another nimh for anything, in the long run they cost more (they die easily) and are just not powerful enough anymore... i'm kinda trying to help you out, and being very excited about what i'm going to create.  so i guess i might have sounded like i had a little bit of an attitude. yea i just type stuff off the top of my head without rethinking it, but i'm sure this will work...


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## LumenHound (May 11, 2006)

Nicely said LEDcandle. :thumbsup:


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## mobile1 (May 11, 2006)

LiPo have fairly strict requirements in terms of temperature/charge/discharge as far as I know. I am sure temperature is less of a problem in a RC plane application compared to a metal enclosed flashlight with a several 100W heater (bulp) attached to the front.
Also if the cell explodes its less of a problem in the air compared to having this happen in a metal enclosed cylinder.


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## badinstincts (May 11, 2006)

you have a point there, but i'm sure if its in a metal case it would act as a heatsink and should be effective, these lipos dont really get hot, they get warm if used at 15C... they also do not explode, the can burst and create napalm, but that only happens when you charge it wrong... i've accidentally left 1 pack shorted for a few minutes, all that happened was that it puffed and it felt like it was boiling inside, i threw it out my window and it didn't even burst...

oh and if you guys make a market for thunderpower i'm sure they can make the packs round. they have been very compliant with the needs of RC peeps...


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## brough (May 11, 2006)

> they also do not explode, the can burst and create napalm


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## andrewwynn (May 11, 2006)

what i am saying.. is that we actually MEASURED with a volt-amp-watt meter.. some of the baddest LiPO packs sold and though they will run 30A w/o a problem they will sag and not continuously hold voltage. Put *any* of those LiPO packs on a constant 12C and they *will* sag, period, laws of physics.. not saying they can't keep putting out 30A if you keep dropping the resistance.. a LAMP on the other hand, is going to keep a constant resistance so as the voltage sags the output will drop. 

I measured the pack my self at my house with a topped-off tanic pack.. they were aprx. 2100mAH packs, not more than 1 mo old.. they couldn't hold voltage at 23A. 11C.. they did 'ok' but they were constantly dropping.. power dropped from about 580W to 520W within 30 seconds. 

I didn't say the mag was the only thing to exist.. i challenged you to find a suitable host.. do some doing and not some talking. We like the people that do around here. 

You CAN pull constant high-power out of those packs.. NOT with constant load.. you need a variable load.. you can also, as suggested.. quite probably pull a dropping output, but if you actually measured that output it's not going to be as optimistic as you suggest.. 

I think you missed too many of my points.. mostly that.. you have to find a suitable host and a matching set of battery pack and lamp.. once you find it, many people will copy you.. look at the Mag85.. it sounds like you have the fire in your belly to make it happen, so i was saying.. make it happen. 

Icebreak makes a very very good point.. with the lamps i'm toying with lately.. like the 623.. it runs at 10A.. but startup surge is over 40A because my meter refuses to display (overload) with 40A max. 

Fortunately I've been pretty successful with chillin' out those spikes.. i have the 625 and 138 lamp starting with 'current limiting' and it's a work of art to watch them.. doing the same with a higher output lamp is going to required PWM or some very very large FETs. 

along the lines of what 270 said about 'timid' and powerful lights.. one of the projects i'm working on is a 90,000L hand-held spotlight.. 10-15#.. 16" reflector.. 3000W arc-lamp.. 150,000,000 to 250,000,000 lux.. just how powerful are you wanting? 

LarryK, the designer of the LK12.. the 14,000L hand-held spotlight.. he found his 7.2V tanic packs for like $15.. if you can find them cheaper i'd love to know the source. 

Square peg and round hole comes into play with LiPO packs.. I'm working on a design of a light specifically tailored around LiPO because i've not found any suitable hosts for them and they do kick butt.. 

funny line about 'surprised don't know'.. there are a lot of people at CPF with LiPos on their work bench just waiting for the right combination to appear for them to bee used. Let's work on solving the problem, because they are made to be together. 

I'm not quite so concerned about the safety implications, though i would probably design a light with some relief mechanism in case of venting to be on the safe side.. I think mostly the square peg, round hole, and the fact that until about 2 months ago there were no reasonable ways for a lot of people to take advantage of battery packs that only come in 3.7V increments.. there just aren't/weren't lamps that mated well with any of them.

Times are slowly changing, and in a big way with the advent of mine and winny's regulators to let you mate lamps and batteries that before were absolutely impossible.. like that it is possible to run the 62138 from a LiPO 4S.. that was not possible before March.

back to heat.. the heat isn't from discharge.. it's from the 30,50, or 100W of IR coming from the lamp filament itself. The head of a 100W flashlight will heat up to 200F in 8 minutes with a regular reflector and lamp.

There is something about the way LiPo is made that really lends itself to rectangular packs.. now there are the 'molicells' that can output 33C.. and i've even measured over 40A coming out of them.. they held 3.8V under 40A load, that's impressive.. they are like 5/4C size.. but they are only 3.7-3.8V.. so you need too many of them to be useful.. just like the lipo problem. 

So.. what kind of host are you suggesting to fit 4-5-8+ LiPos in that is a 'hand held' flashlight? There have been people working on these solutions for a while and by in large.. what usually happens is that designs are more likely to be 'mods' than a 'ground up' design. 

I am working on a 'ground up' design, the 'minimighty' http://mm.rouse.com and it's got about 2500 manhours into the project and still isn't going to press yet.. there is a reaaallly good reason we make mods based on somebody else's host light. 

I will tell you that a 4S pack of 35mm wide cells WILL fit into an Elephant.. you could probably fit TWO of them in.. or at least longer than 100mm long ones and get maybe 3AH 14.4V.. but you can at best run about 120-130W because the limitation of what lamps can be used.

Trust me i've spent many MANY hours trying to figure out how to get a 100+W lamp with 3000+ lumen into a light the size (or roughly) of an M6. If it is possible i will be making one, period. 

How much light do you really need in a light smaller than a 2D maglite? And.. once again.. what pair of batteries, lamp and host do you propose? 

-awr


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## bfg9000 (May 11, 2006)

Yes, things could be made smaller. But if you just wanted the brightest thing around and didn't care about the danger or that it would only run a few minutes, you don't need any fancy batteries or HID lamps at all. Just light some magnesium on fire






BTW a car ballast will only run a 35w HID bulb.


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## TENMMIKE (May 11, 2006)

GREAT THREAD, love learning,


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## andrewwynn (May 11, 2006)

love it.. my next 'torch'.. puddle of magnisium dust in the center of an 9" parabolic dish with a tazer to start it on fire.. great fun. 

I think it's interesting to bring up this discussion.. i was wondering the same things a year ago 'til is started trying to figure out a good mate between LiPO and hotwire.. the host is the main missing link.. so since i couldn't find a suitable host i started designing one. :-D

-awr


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## 270winchester (May 11, 2006)

A 100watt bulb will heat a maglite to be uncomfortable to hod in just a few minutes. I cringe of the thought of 10 times that much power while packing heat-sensitve LiPo packs in it. SOunds like the bombs they were making in Terminator(the first one).

Aside from the heat as andrew pointed out, one thing that made me put off Incans for a while is that while you can make the lights more powerful, the geometry and physics of the dimensions just does not warrant much pass 200w in a 2d Size. I used a 2 inch head with a smooth carley reflector, and the result was a masive flood. A 3 inch head makes a huge difference but the inherent size of the D-sized lights makes sure that there is a thresh hold of brightnes beyond which any more light will not make a significant gain in perceived brightness, at least on my part. What good is a 1kw in a 2D light if it doesn't reach very far? HIDs will throw further, but you still need a massive head to collect and reflect the light. That kind of negates the whole concept of a compact light, don't it?


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## Solomon MK2 (May 11, 2006)

badinstincts,

No offence, but you're a little arrogant for a guy who hasn't even done his first flashlight mod, yet. If everything were as simplistic and easy as you make it out to be, you'd think someone would have already done what you're proposing...

Just my $0.02 

Solomon


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## andrewwynn (May 11, 2006)

i'm not sure that badinstinct was insiting on maxing out the 350W pack, nearly pointing out the untapped potential of LiPO when it comes to a show-off light. 

Face it.. it's a lot more work getting 100W from a bunch of NiMH than a LiPO pack, that point is obvious.. obvious enough that badinstinct was perplexed why there aren't many options when it comes to powering lamps from LiPO. 

My first LiPO flashlight was a 1200mA cell powering 3 series 3W luxeons with a fatman driver.. that was absolutely stunning.. the concept is becoming the minimighty.. quite likely the first if not the only LED light in the world that is over 100Lumen per cubic inch. 

My gut feeling.. if a LiPO light about the size of an M6 can output 2000-3000-4000L.. it would bring a *LOT* of smiles and though it would be borderline 'too hot to handle' working with heat managment to keep it under control i think a light is workable... i do have designs with fans :-D

I personally am a fan of lots of lumens, not as important the lux. The #7 stipple reflector housing a 3000L 64625 is pretty much the supreme commander for a useful light to carry around.. the spot is so big it only throws strong for about 100'.. but it lights stuff up clearly 200' 300' away, just doesn't have that 'spot'.. however.. come in closer.. and at 10-15' away.. just absolutely everything is lit up 'daylight' style.. it's an 'instant on' X990 with no beam artifacts and 1500K whiter. 

I'm with badinstinct with the idea of shinking that down using LiPO packs since the POWER density is higher... but it's tricky without resorting to a ground-up build of your own host. 

-awr


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## LEDcandle (May 11, 2006)

I saw some Yumex bulbs; rated at 1600w/23v (60k lumens) and even 2500/28v (100k lumens). These are obviously not suitable for flashlight mods (they are like 13.5inches diameter), but the Amps needed to drive these must be scary; I believe these will work your LiPos out 

I have no idea what their kind of base looks like and what their purpose is (exhibition light? tank light?) but I've rarely seen such low voltage high power bulbs. They cost an arm and a leg too.


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## twentysixtwo (May 11, 2006)

My $0.02 

Badinstincts knows more about LiPo than he does abour flashlight modding or nettiquette. Jumping on senior forum members is not a way to make fast friends.

I think the short answer on why Nicad,Nimh and Lion instead of Lipo is that Lipo is comparitively new and unless you're already doing electric RC planes or something where you'd have them, you're not likely to sink a pile of $ into something that has limited use.

Lots of the Lions we use drop into existing applications - do you have a Lipo I can use in a TL3, U2, or L4?

To paraphrase several of the other comments - battery technology is not what is limiting the higher power mods. Appropriate hosts, voltage matching, heat management are.


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## cmacclel (May 11, 2006)

Forget Lithium Polymers for Flashlights. The new Technology and it's round is the Molicel which can provide 100amp bursts. 

I fly planes and have $500 with of Li-Poly's floating around but one has never made into a light yet 

Post some pics on you first light......or fire or explosion  The Latter may come first with your talk of capacitors to get HID lamps to ignite.


Mac


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## BentHeadTX (May 11, 2006)

There are many "splinter groups" in flashlight mods. One of them is the output at any cost and safety be damned group. A 1KW 2D Mag light would be fun to see, while standing behind a blast wall! The heating the bulb throws out when coupled with LiPo's affinity for heat make an interesting relationship.

Now take that and put it in a metal tube and hang it next to your nads. A flashlight is ultimately used during periods of darkness and many times the amount of runtime needed is much longer than originally planned. Think of it as an emergency tank of oxygen that lasts 5 minutes, not exactly useful if you need 10 minutes of O2. 

My thing is LED lighting that has serious punch, multiple outputs for extended runtimes and reliability. I could make a shortened Mag hammering a LuxeonV at 1.5 amps (around 10 watts) and use a LiPo to power it. Granted, it would be a WOW light but not exactly useful if I am depending on it in a blackout. All my flashlights must ultimately be useful, safe and dependable...


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## cmacclel (May 11, 2006)

BentHeadTX said:


> There are many "splinter groups" in flashlight mods. One of them is the output at any cost and safety be damned group. A 1KW 2D Mag light would be fun to see, while standing behind a blast wall! The heating the bulb throws out when coupled with LiPo's affinity for heat make an interesting relationship.
> 
> Now take that and put it in a metal tube and hang it next to your nads. A flashlight is ultimately used during periods of darkness and many times the amount of runtime needed is much longer than originally planned. Think of it as an emergency tank of oxygen that lasts 5 minutes, not exactly useful if you need 10 minutes of O2.
> 
> My thing is LED lighting that has serious punch, multiple outputs for extended runtimes and reliability. I could make a shortened Mag hammering a LuxeonV at 1.5 amps (around 10 watts) and use a LiPo to power it. Granted, it would be a WOW light but not exactly useful if I am depending on it in a blackout. All my flashlights must ultimately be useful, safe and dependable...




Thats whats nice about my LED lights. I like 2 power setting minimum. One is a decent output setting with hours of runtime.....the other is flat at MAX POWER 

Mac


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## HayJab (May 11, 2006)

Well not me. I have lots of LED lights and I run them at their maximum setting all the time. I use rechargeables because they are brighter, not to be green or save money. Saving lumens is nuts. Get the right light to make it bright I say.

HayJab so states...




cmacclel said:


> Thats whats nice about my LED lights. I like 2 power setting minimum. One is a decent output setting with hours of runtime.....the other is flat at MAX POWER
> 
> Mac


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## Long John (May 11, 2006)

And the very best of all is,

everybody can make what he wants.

There are a few great artists, which can create very useful, safe lights in an absolutely amazing performance and outfit, and others want to build a pe... substitute, dangerous like a hand-grenade.

Best regards

_____
Tom


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## andrewwynn (May 11, 2006)

mac.. i've been trying to figure out a way to rip open my v28 packs and use the molicels inside since i got them (first week the v28 was available).. but they are too low of voltage to be useful.. being 5/4C or whatever.. just to get 14.4V you neeed a 6C light.. i can get as much power in a light smaller than 'the torch' with LiPO.. which really is the man focus of badinstinct's though in this thread. 

The torch concept expressed here is just a 'showoff' light.. something like 'the torch'.. not a practical light but a balltothewall bright light.. i think it's quite worthy of research and development. I do agree with the opinions about netiquette.. I've been doin' this pretty hard core for 3 solid years.. 3900 posts later and thousands of hours in the R&D on flashlights going from alkaline powered to molicel powered an even looking into butane powered.. i am absolutely an 'outside the box' designer, so do a little research on who you're talking to is a good bit of advice from above. 

-awr


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## cmacclel (May 11, 2006)

The Molicels are 4.2v cells? Why do you need a 6s pack for 14.4v? Also there's no way to fit 4 Lipo's in a mag right now in one stack unless you use under 800mah cells which would be useless unless you want 2 minutes of runtime.


Mac


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## badinstincts (May 12, 2006)

well, it wont be in a mag, i would have to find some other casing for the battery and perhaps have some protection from the heat the bulb would product. i've been running my 2100 prolites at 30A constant on the bench for 4-5 minutes and they barely get hot, I would say that they are around 100-120deg F. The thing is, these packs do need a proper break in for them to do that.. I will post the link to a thread on rcgroups for the lowest prices on tp prolites. 1 sec...


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## badinstincts (May 12, 2006)

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=485501

here ya go, its only a 2 page thread, but you can just check out the sites and figure out how to get the lowest price, which is by using the 10% or 15% price match from hobby-lobby.com which is a very great place...


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## badinstincts (May 12, 2006)

my first project will be just a regular 35w car hid. i'm going to use the 2.75x2.75x1.25 ballast, and a 6000k up to a 8000k bulb... i may even try the green and ultraviolet to see if they can throw better... its obviously going to need only 1 3s lipo pack and it should be able to power it for 40-60 minutes... 
thats only going to be a simple project so I can have a nice light to play with for now until i get the serious equipment...

after that, i'll try to find some other way to ignite and power higher powered xenon (short arc, and the other ones) bulbs, i want to be able to put a 1kw into something small like the size of a kumkang... if i'm happy with that then i'll try 2kw++++


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## TENMMIKE (May 12, 2006)

when do you expect to get your project moving and ready to fire up?


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## badinstincts (May 12, 2006)

well, i'll be ordering the hid kit in a day or 2, once i decide which is the most suited, there are soo many companies to choose from...

the 1kw project will probably be started in 2-3weeks, yes i know i'm slow. but its a long wait because i need to figure out what to buy and then buy it and wait for it to be shipped...


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## andrewwynn (May 12, 2006)

mac, molicels hold maybe 3.8V under load..you need a 6-C maglite to fit 4x 5/4C sized molicells.. they are 26700 cells. you might can fit them in a 5C.. the point it.. not a small light. 

bad.. $65 for 3S1P from the first link i clicked from one of the listed sites.. the packs that the LarryK runs on were 2S1P for $15.. we are aware of where to get good deals on LiPOs but it doesn't hurt to find more.. the thing we need to find it a nice host to put them in! 

Your logic is sound for ideas, keep us posted on what you come up with. Try running a lamp that pulls 20A and see how fast the votlage drops.. when over driving lamps to the point we do.. 0.1V can mean hundreds and hundreds of lumens difference.. for example.. driving the lamp in the LK12 with an 8S2P pack holds 29.5V.. and really doesn't sag.. estimated output.. well over 14000-15000 lumen.. same exact lamp.. with the v28 battery pack.. which do to some freak situation with limiting circuit will only output 24.5V.. it's not even 8000 Lumen.. four volts.. 83% the voltage, half the output. 

with low power lamps like 35W HID.. LiPO is wasted.. 3A? you can run those from standard LiON.. but the 1KW type light.. that is exciting if you can figure out a host, and a lamp.. wow us. 

-awr


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## idleprocess (May 12, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> with low power lamps like 35W HID.. LiPO is wasted.. 3A? you can run those from standard LiON.. but the 1KW type light.. that is exciting if you can figure out a host, and a lamp.. wow us.



I've been doing a bit of research on replacing a 7AH SLA battery for use in 35W HID spotlights. The cost-per watt-hour for LiPo (~0.4W-H/$) is about twice NiCd/NiMH (0.8 - 1.2 W-H/$) and astronomically higher than SLA (2.4W-H/$).

Given the ~40W draw of a 35W HID system with ballast overhead, you really only need to think about the brief startup pulse and high draw during warmup ... otherwise you're looking at ~3.3A @ 12V to run it. NiCd's and NiMH weigh more and offer lower instantaneous power, but their economy is undeniable. 35W of HID light is *bright*. The next steps up the HID foodchain are 50W, 75W, then 175W. I would be interested in a 175W HID flashlight, but I don't think there are any DC ballasts for those and I think the mass of electronics, optics, and housing - nevermind batteries - would push the definition of "man-portable" too much for regular use.

As neat as some of the other projects out there are - be it multi-kilowatt tank searchlights or 600W incandescent landing lights - they lack day-to-day utility and are quite cumbersome. andrewwynn's 600W landing light is blinding, with relatively short runtime _(feel free to correct or clarify, awr)_. It's an amazing exercise in "lumen density" and might light up a large room or other big space, but would likely be too much for most daily uses. The tank searchlights are not really portable of themselves (100kg and up) and typically require power supplies at least as massive as the lights themslves for AC line power, or dedicated generators for portable operation if your +28V battery bank isnt up to the task.

As others have indicated, the heat that a 100W handheld flashlight generates is intense enough to make the device acutely uncomfortable to operate ... 1kW might reduce safe runtime down fractional minutes with a duty cycle of 5-10%.

Also, unlike RC vehicles, you typically have to hold a flashlight and will likely have an up close and personal experiece with any failures. A few folks have been around when their lithium-primary cells cooked off, and there have been some tales of li-ion cells experiencing the "exothermic self-disassembly" failure mode. I understand that li-polys don't tend to explode, but are known fire hazards.


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## andrewwynn (May 12, 2006)

the ACL is larryK's invention, but yes.. i think even with his 8S2P LiPO pack.. 7-9 minutes of runtime calculated. 

The 100W handheld lights with finned heads are absolutely managable heat-wise not a problem at all.. but the runtime is designed for 'controlled bursts' although... that does mean walking to/from the car/garage/boathouse.. there is no nicer light to walk down to the shed than a 100W magilte! It feels like you are driving a motorcycle with high beams on at 2mph. 

The 600W lamp... the reflector spits ALL the IR out the front.. our first tests we only hand-held the lamp and even after 2 minutes of use.. never got over 100F. If we cn get a reflector solution like that into a mag host.. the 100W lamps will have their heat management issues solved. (also.. i'm working on solving that problem anyhow). 

Let's just say.. that before the end of summer you can expect a 'whatever the demand is' quantity of a turnkey 100W light coming from racine, wi. 

Fortunately with the driver i use for my highpower lights.. even if using LiPO or LiON.. with 4 cells.. if even ONE is low, the light won't operate.. it'll shut down if one fails under load.. and it won't light if one is dead when you try to turn it on. 

One interesting possibility.. if you have a big enough host.. for bench testing since it takes up to 50A+ to start a 100W lamp but they run at under 10A.. i use a 4 Farad capacitor.. if you could get a 1/2F cap that was 1/8th the size.. it would work very well to keep sag from killing you on startup.. 

4F is pretty nuts.. 4V = 1A x 1V x 1 second.. so.. for example.. if i am simulating a 14.4V battery pack and running the 625 lamp at 12.88V... that is 1.52V of overhead. 

When the light is turned on.. the power supply goes into current limit at 10A.. the driver is holding the peak current to about 30A.. leaving 20 to come from the capacitor.. with an average voltage overhead of .75V.. it means that 4Fx .75V/15A = 0.2Sec.. i get 200 miliseconds of 15A of current out of my bigass capacitor.. and the system works flawlessly. 

badinstinct.. are you more interested in a spotlight or an actual flashlight? 

-awr


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## badinstincts (May 12, 2006)

geeze, still arguing about the prices for the tp prolites... Read the whole thread, skim the links that people posted and do what they suggested, the 10% price guarantee from hobby-lobby... (((Just so you guys know, pushing nimh, or not using them, kills them, lipos last a lot longer for these reasons, therefore they come out being cheaper, unless you buy really cheap nimh batts, which wont be much better than alkaline batts)))

I am not trying to really make a usable flashlight, I just want to make an extremely powerful lightsaber, for ~4-8min runtime. Once that is accomplished then of course you can step down the power if I actually wanted a usable flashlight. Once again, this is only for a few minutes of awesome power to play around with, I DONT NEED A FREAKIN FLASHLIGHT. NYC rarely has blackouts and they dont last long...


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## cmacclel (May 12, 2006)

badinstincts said:


> geeze, still arguing about the prices for the tp prolites... Read the whole thread, skim the links that people posted and do what they suggested, the 10% price guarantee from hobby-lobby... (((Just so you guys know, pushing nimh, or not using them, kills them, lipos last a lot longer for these reasons, therefore they come out being cheaper, unless you buy really cheap nimh batts, which wont be much better than alkaline batts)))
> 
> I am not trying to really make a usable flashlight, I just want to make an extremely powerful lightsaber, for ~4-8min runtime. Once that is accomplished then of course you can step down the power if I actually wanted a usable flashlight. Once again, this is only for a few minutes of awesome power to play around with, I DONT NEED A FREAKIN FLASHLIGHT. NYC rarely has blackouts and they dont last long...




Where Far from pushing nimh's. The cells used in the High Power Mods that draw 10amps are rated for 20-30amp discharge. Again Li-Po's will NOT FIT in 99% of the lights out there.


Mac


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## idleprocess (May 12, 2006)

badinstincts said:


> geeze, still arguing about the prices for the tp prolites... Read the whole thread, skim the links that people posted and do what they suggested, the 10% price guarantee from hobby-lobby... (((Just so you guys know, pushing nimh, or not using them, kills them, lipos last a lot longer for these reasons, therefore they come out being cheaper, unless you buy really cheap nimh batts, which wont be much better than alkaline batts)))



I've skimmed you links. At best, LiPo's seem to approach 0.6 W-H/$ if you've really got the retailer over the barrell. On the other hand, if you're skilled in battery pack assembly or know someone that will work for free or a 6-pack, you can double NiMH/NiCd's 0.8 - 1.2 W-H/$.

If you want to make a super high-performance portable searchlight, then by all means go nuts with LiPo's. Just bear in mind that when cost, real-world brightness/power, and runtime matter, LiPo's don't make sense for flashlights. Yet. NiMH & NiCd rule the roost due to their adequate power density/power delivery, relative durability, lower cost, availability in standard sizes, and safety. Because most flashlights are tubular devices, li-ion is _the_ high-density alternaltive to NiMH/NiCd and it's available in semi-standard sizes to accomodate the ever-popular 123A and AA formfactors with C & D cells emerging.

As has been stated repeatedly, you don't need to push NiMH very hard in _useful_ flashlights. If you want a screaming incan lightsaber, you're going to use NiCd, most of which are happy up to 50C. If you double the runtime of your lightsaber from 5 minutes to 10 minutes with your LiPo's ... that's something, I guess ... but it hasn't jumped runtime enough to make such toys more utilitarian.


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## badinstincts (May 12, 2006)

ohh boy, lipos would be smaller (in volume), therefore i would need less space, therefore they actually would fit into something like the size of a kumkang, stop thinking maglites.... shesh. a tp 3s 2100prolite would be smaller than any combination of nimh of equal power, so I dunno where you keep coming up with an excuse. 

I read up on the moli cells, they are actually lipos spun into a cylinder, however they weigh a lot more, but that doesn't matter in a flashlight... dewalt actually has some new miracle cell coming out soon... 

Also, my light wont be a flood light either, its strictly spot, with the lowest divergence i can possibly get, so that i can throw further... i'm going to have to do research on reflectors, but i'm at work now and really cant stay on the comp. for long periods...


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## badinstincts (May 12, 2006)

i'm so why are people making 100W mags with a 10minute runtime? cuz its FUNNNNNN, dee deedee






idleprocess said:


> I've skimmed you links. At best, LiPo's seem to approach 0.6 W-H/$ if you've really got the retailer over the barrell. On the other hand, if you're skilled in battery pack assembly or know someone that will work for free or a 6-pack, you can double NiMH/NiCd's 0.8 - 1.2 W-H/$.
> 
> If you want to make a super high-performance portable searchlight, then by all means go nuts with LiPo's. Just bear in mind that when cost, real-world brightness/power, and runtime matter, LiPo's don't make sense for flashlights. Yet. NiMH & NiCd rule the roost due to their adequate power density/power delivery, relative durability, lower cost, availability in standard sizes, and safety. Because most flashlights are tubular devices, li-ion is _the_ high-density alternaltive to NiMH/NiCd and it's available in semi-standard sizes to accomodate the ever-popular 123A and AA formfactors with C & D cells emerging.
> 
> As has been stated repeatedly, you don't need to push NiMH very hard in _useful_ flashlights. If you want a screaming incan lightsaber, you're going to use NiCd, most of which are happy up to 50C. If you double the runtime of your lightsaber from 5 minutes to 10 minutes with your LiPo's ... that's something, I guess ... but it hasn't jumped runtime enough to make such toys more utilitarian.


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## badinstincts (May 12, 2006)

50C cough cough. are you talking current here or temp. there is no nicd that can handle 20C constant... not that i know of...


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## pest3125 (May 12, 2006)

Hi,
I've built 2 lights using Kokam Li-Po's and PIC microcontrollers.
I've posted the links here before.
The link is: http://www.geocities.com/pest3125 (click on "Lantern" and "LED Light" projects).
The photo album is at: http://photos.yahoo.com/pest3125.


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## andrewwynn (May 12, 2006)

yeah that 50C is not accurate.. 50A, sure. 50C would be on the order of 120A from a NiCD subc.. not too likely. You can pull a lot more current from NICD than LiON though.. also NiMH. 

badinstincts is right on with the 'whys' of making a smaller brighter light, not exactly sure where any of the resistance is coming from.. he's talking about a FUN, showoff showcase light... not a necessarily practical long-life light.. perfect example was the comment, same reason as making a 100W maglite that runs 10 min or less. because it is FUN.. it's is quite a lot of fun, actually. 

having held a 600W light in my hands i would have no problem with bumping that up to 1kw.. in fact we've already looked into putting a 1kw lamp into that exact light.. with the 8S2P pack it would handle it just fine. 

I myself am more interested in a more practical light than the likes B.I. is working on.. i want 3000L in the size of an M6.. runtime maybe 24 minutes.. so.. 6x the brightness.. same size.. longer runtime than a stock M6.. I have the design all lined up.. it will likely happen by this time next year... maybe i can hack together an ugly prototype just for proof of concept which will make it happen sooner. 

-awr


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## idleprocess (May 14, 2006)

I can't locate my source on the 50C spec. Looks like ~20C is the best that's available from common NiCd cells with some specialty cells going higher - probably at nosebleed prices.


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## badinstincts (May 15, 2006)

well, i haven't seen any nicd that can do 20C, most I've seen was like 15C...
I never used nicd before, not on purpose (only in transmitters and stuff i wouldn't care about)...

anyways how does this unit look
http://cgi.ebay.com/6000K-McCulloch...065188999QQcategoryZ36476QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

is there a difference between these xenon kits? like helios, mucculloch, etc?
this one seems to be the lowest price, the 6000K seems to give off the most light...


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## Timson (May 15, 2006)

I've seen 2.5Ah 1/2D Ni-Cd cells developed for battle robots from Powerstream which they claim can do 98A !!

The 98A is on a *pulsed* discharge basis...Still damned impressive though.


Tim.


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## idleprocess (May 15, 2006)

badinstincts said:


> anyways how does this unit look
> http://cgi.ebay.com/6000K-McCulloch...065188999QQcategoryZ36476QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> 
> is there a difference between these xenon kits? like helios, mucculloch, etc?
> this one seems to be the lowest price, the 6000K seems to give off the most light...


I believe that 4200K is the most efficient HID color, bur it's quite not the blue-white that most folks associate with HID.

You might find it more convenient to use a kit with an integrated starter+ballast - only one additional component to mount.

If you can find a kit with a bulb base that's the same as your spotlight (probably H3 or H4), it will be easier to mount to your reflector.


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## badinstincts (May 15, 2006)

yea but i want the blue anyway, i'm hoping that it will produce a beam when focused really well. i haven't seen any white beams... white it just bright, lights everything up like crazy, but no beam.


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## WhiteHot (May 16, 2006)

If you can read through the "better than thou" speeches, badinstincts makes a good point. The battery technology that is most common in the high powered flashlight realm is old technology. I fly RC too and use LiPos in all my planes now. Wouldn't go back to NiMH or NiCad for flying ever. Been thinking about bringing the LiPo's into the flashlight hobby too.

Anyway, I have a feeling that the popularity of LiPo's is going to be failry short lived. They are fairly delicate and can be dangerous if not handled properly. There are many stories on the RC boards of people burning up their homes and cars. Most of these fires are either from improper charging methods or sharp impact to the packs (crashes). You can also destroy the packs fairly easily by overcharging or overdischarging. Better charging methods are becoming much more popular to deal with the overcharging problems (packs with balance taps). Even so, I feel that the LiPo's in their current form will be replaced in the next few - five years. Technologies are already coming out that will replace the LiPos in terms of durability and safety. Molicells are a perfect example and even the RC guys are just starting to experiment with them.

That said I DO have hundreds of dollars in LiPos and chargers  They are where it is at right now.

Sorry for the rambling, just wanted to put in my few cents.


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## WhiteHot (May 16, 2006)

badinstincts said:


> yea but i want the blue anyway, i'm hoping that it will produce a beam when focused really well. i haven't seen any white beams... white it just bright, lights everything up like crazy, but no beam.



A white light will produce the same light saber effect. The effect is just the light bouncing off crap in the air (dust, moisture, etc.). More light = more light sabre. What host do you plan to use?

So with all of the talk of making this super killer ultra high powered mega spotlight, you ended up settling on a 35W HID? Whoop-de-do. Are you going to make it smaller than anyone has ever seen before? Smaller than the current crop of 35W HID's that use LiIon packs? How does all of your talk about size reduction play into your lightsabre dream? Are you planning to do that with a small reflector? You know that in order to columnate the light from a large bulb you need a large reflector, right?

Looking forward to seeing your uber light,
WhiteHot


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## Sway (May 16, 2006)

badinstincts said:


> yea but i want the blue anyway, i'm hoping that it will produce a beam when focused really well. i haven't seen any white beams... white it just bright, lights everything up like crazy, but no beam.



4100K (White) Osram D2S 1/2 mile, the camera makes the color temp look higher than it is.






Farther





And even farther






Checking the mail at 50 Yards, priceless.







Later
Kelly


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## LEDcandle (May 16, 2006)

I thought we were going to see a 2kw monster... how come car HID kits are still being mentioned? 

Kelly, nice pics!! looks like a fly would disintegrate if he flew past the beam. Seen your other pics before somewhere too (avatar), but can't remember which thread.


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## andrewwynn (May 16, 2006)

LED candle.. B.I. did say he was going to start with the 35W HID solution.. give him a bit of time.. Kelly brings out some baddass lights.. not sure what all he has but all the lights i've seen involved with 'Sway' are insanely bright. 

Oh.. also regarding people being rubbed the wrong way from the bold and blunt and not 'politically correct' postings from B.I... um.. his very handle should give us plenty of warning 

-awr


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## 270winchester (May 16, 2006)




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## Sway (May 16, 2006)

I’m not 100% sure how the white balance was set when those beam shots were made only they were not made at the same time and it’s been a while :shrug: I’m getting old.

The last 2 pictures the color is a little truer to the lamp, the white balance may have been on HOLD again not sure. To the eye this lamp looks like a warm white almost hyper driven incan in color, I much prefer this to the higher temp HID’s in the blue/purple range, the CR off the 4100K is much better JMHO.

The hot spot on the obliterated mail box in the last pic is much closer to the 4100K color. 

One night I had a friend over from work (wife kicked him out) trying to cheer him up so I got out some lights to talk about and pass the time when we got around to the HID he’s _“OH I want to try that one out I drove a car one time that had HID head lights”_ after a warm up at 35W I gave him the go ahead to switch up to 50W, after a minute or so he said to me with a look of anticipation on his face _”when is it going to turn blue”_ 

*badinstincts* go with a 4100 to 4300K lamp for the highest output.

Sorry for my ramblings, I should have posted some info about the beam shots last night but I was just too tired to think of anything.

Later
Kelly


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## badinstincts (May 17, 2006)

look at this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7240672091

the 50w hid car kits are expensive... =/
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7998135504
anyone wanna split one with me?


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## badinstincts (May 17, 2006)

i like the idea of having the battery seperate, but mine would be smaller, like 6"x1.75"x1.5" (off the top of my head) so it would fit in my pocket... 1 lipo would power it for like 20-30 minutes...


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## badinstincts (May 17, 2006)

i did some research for 2 minutes and found
http://www.understeer.com/onlinestore-lighting.shtml
better price, i'm thinking either 4500k or 5000k the 4500 has 4200lumens... 

why do some many people have these if they are illegal in the US? I am seriously thinking of putting them on my car. I wonder if my headlight housing can handle them... do they produce a lot of heat? wow imagine 50w hid 5000k in my black grand am gt.


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## andrewwynn (May 17, 2006)

many of the HID aftemarket kits are not legal for use on the roads.. only so many lumen/lux allowed on the roads.. some will be sold as 'off road only' for this reason.


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## Solomon MK2 (Jun 1, 2006)

I wonder how this 1st project is coming along. Any updates?  



badinstincts said:


> well, i'll be ordering the hid kit in a day or 2, once i decide which is the most suited, there are soo many companies to choose from...
> 
> the 1kw project will probably be started in 2-3weeks, yes i know i'm slow. but its a long wait because i need to figure out what to buy and then buy it and wait for it to be shipped...


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## badinstincts (Jun 3, 2006)

didn't start yet, will soon though. still need to finish playing with high powered portable lasers. i could almost figure out how to get a constant power draw from a battery, still figuring things out.... i'll probably start ordering things this coming week, maybe sunday so I get the stuff during the week... =)


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## andrewwynn (Jun 3, 2006)

cool.. i'd like to see what you come up with.. meantime i'm still working on making smaller and smaller 'very bright' lights... LiPO powered .. size in the 1D mag/M6 class.. 100W incan/ 35W HID.. i think this year will be very bright. 

-awr


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## Protaeus (Jun 3, 2006)

HIDs dont produce much heat but your existing reflector and headlight assembly will not focus them properly. Infact, using stock reflectors, they will produce extremely prominent artifacts as well as shining way up into drivers eyes making them extremely dangerous. Furthermore, they will be a beacon to the cops - any copy coming near you will easily be able to tell that you are using HID's and chances are, will pull you over. 

Remeber to also upgrade your headlight wiring as the current draw has a good chance of melting them.


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## andrewwynn (Jun 3, 2006)

far as i know we are talking about flashlights not car replacements. 

-awr


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## badinstincts (Jun 3, 2006)

lol, i like when people start acting smart when they dont know whats going on... 

ohh, i'm also going to try to get a good collimator lens for my flashlight, more focused light, better throw, hehehe... 

i really want to get the 50w hid but they are expensive, hopefully i'll pick up a used set. (yea they are only $400-500) but I already spent $2000 on green lasers... lol

also in NYC, almost 20% of the cars have hid, so i really dont know what that guy is talkin about...


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## HarryN (Jun 4, 2006)

Sway - nice beam shots. I need to see that thing some time.


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## WhiteHot (Jun 5, 2006)

badinstincts said:


> lol, i like when people start acting smart when they dont know whats going on...



LOL. I think that is why so many people were a little upset when you started posting. Pot. Kettle. Black?


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## badinstincts (Jun 5, 2006)

well I dont think they knew what kind of power the new lipos were capable of. No other nimh or nicd cell can do what lipos can these days, they are much smaller and much more powerful... since I fly airplanes and I need to keep things light and small I knew about these batteries.

so the lesson is, if you know a little in one subject and a little in another it can help out in another... I actually know a lot about rc airplanes, so its not just a little, I know all about motors, batteries, etc, even some aerodynamics, and all that neat stuff that can be useful...


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## Icebreak (Jun 6, 2006)

badinstincts said:


> so the lesson is, if you know a little in one subject and a little in another it can help out in another...


 Both sciences can borrow concepts from each other. Yes. I believe someone made reference to this on page one.

Your posts continue to contain no lack of enthusiasm. Great.

For Lipos it's good to have confirmation that...



badinstincts said:


> they also do not explode, the can burst and create napalm,


 It might be noted that gunpowder doesn't explode either...until it is encased in a metal cylinder and fired up.

It might also be good to note that candles, flashlights, lanterns and spotlights, though all luminaries by function and definition, are four very different things.

How has the inspiration evolved thus far?



badinstincts said:


> ...I will have to be the first to try to make a small 1KW+ psycho crazy small flashlight that will make people cry...


 Then present reality has something to state.




PresentReality said:


> thousands before now have come to realize that research and development expenses can be so much of a challenge that even building a 35 watt spotlight from scratch, that bores people to tears, is beyond their initial capability. The success of their lofty first notions then seems so very, very far away.


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## HarryN (Jun 7, 2006)

I cannot speak for others, but I do know why I have not used Li Pos, and even hesitated before deciding to use Li Ions in a short run flashlight - liability.

In the case of an RC application, the end users who own and operate the plane are often the builder as well. It is relatively challenging to come to the conclusion that someone who bought parts from many different firms and assembled them into a device which pushed the batteries to the limit and ultimately caught on fire can blame someone else. In addition, high end RC planes / cars are rarely accidentally operated by small children, do not spend much time being operated in close body proximity, nor are they stored in close body contact.

In the case of a "power flashlight", the opposite is true. Many of the end users buy a finished system and can potentially hold the builder liable. This is quite a risk for someone who has likely spent thousands of dollars on development of a "hobby light" and ends up selling them for nominally more than the build costs by sharing the product with others. In other works, builders take on the liability but gain almost nothing but personal satisfaction.

Worse yet, all of the "storage and operation" risks reduced by the RC plane application are very present in the case of a flashlight. It is entirely likely that a child or under educated person will operate the light, and it is by nature stored and used near the person.

I would not be surprised and would love to see some hobby build lights from LiPOs, just keep in mind the risk factors of who might buy it.


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## chesterqw (Jun 7, 2006)

badinstincts,

so first, you said you want to build a 1kw light, because you think our lights here are puny. 
next, you started to say bad things about people. 
Then, you are saying you will build a body for the 'light' yourself and build a ballast too.
after that was that, you started to say we are outdated and using a maglite as a mod host is dumb.
after that whole thing, the experts here are now giving REAL facts about battery and law of physic...e.g. battery will FOREVER SAG unless you have a nuclear reactor in it.
then, you talk about starting with a 35W car hid...when you are suppose to build and let us see a 1kw light?
next on, you started on trying to find the best optic for your light for the most throw and btw, there is no such collimator lens for your OWN homemaded light, unless you make one out yourself with tons of money.
do you even understand there is a limit on everything?
batteries, unless you are from the US secret service,will never be able to power a 1kw light even if you put tons of them together.
the cost alone for find a '1kw watever light emitting source' is likely to be impossible and unreachable...
risks and cost are too dang high, alot of time will be needed to even build one.

so maybe...a light powered by a generator of somesort will maybe work...

or something like the lightsaber's powersource.:bow::bow:

my few dollars.


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## twentysixtwo (Jun 7, 2006)

Although BI has rubbed a number of us the wrong way, we should cut him some slack - it's been less than a month since his original posting....

I'm interested in seeing what he might gin up - it's amazing waht you can do with a little enthusiasm and he seems to have a lot of it.

Who knows, maybe we'll see a pocket sized USL?


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## andrewwynn (Jun 7, 2006)

I thought he was aiming for a 'pocket size' USL but he's aiming for relatively small spot lights.. a 1kw light is not outside the envelope of reason.. we built the LK14.. 14,000 L light about the size of a gallon of milk using 16 of the LiPo cells BI is describing... it worked with 8 but the voltage sagged pretty bad at 22-23A.. well with 8S2P.. no sag in-fact it holds 29.5V under load when freshly charged! 

The LiPO packs can easily output 200-300W depending on the size so it's very feasible to get the likes of a 1KW light.. the LK puts out well over 600 and with the SP pack it's not even breaking a sweat... that particular pack could easily push 1KW. I think we were even looking into 1KW par64 lamps to try it out. 

With HID.. you could get as much light with 300-400W and triple the runtime.. the runtime on LK14.. maybe 9 minutes.. so triple that would be nice. 

Like has been covered here before.. the reason mags are used for modding is because they exist.. it's easier to chop another complete light than build from scratch by far far far. 

LiPOs have mostly been for the RC guys because like harry said.. they 'DIY'.. it's quite a tricky situation regarding liability since if you have no control over it.. anything can be done. Just the simple fact that many if not most RC guys will skip using a fuse on their packs since a fuse will drop voltage.. Alkaline batteries leak when something goes really bad.. they don't start on fire. 

Keep on with your 35W HID light we want to see what you come up with. 

I think the 'kettle... black'.. remark was fair btw.. There were comments from B.I. early on that fit the same description 'don't know what's goin' on' from his post #80 quoted above. The people as myself in the thick of this know a lot more than B.I. had or possible has any idea about putting LiPO into a flashlight.. something that's been in the works since about august of last year. 

I myself am not interested in the LiPO -> big light solution Like he's working on... I'm interested in a 100W incan that is the size of an M6.. i'm VERY interested in such a device. The latest calculations for the latest design come out to.. 1900/2600/3550L for 33/24/19 minutes.. some extremely useful values for a light smaller than a 2D mag. 

awr


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## chesterqw (Jun 8, 2006)

after much thinking, i forgot what i wanted to say ... )

but hey, i will support him , he has big ambitions! wish that he succeed


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## 270winchester (Jun 8, 2006)

how did we go from a 1Kw monster light to a 35w HID again? Can't you buy those things from Amondotech for like 130 bucks?


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## Solomon MK2 (Jun 13, 2006)

I think he was going to build a 35w HID, and put it into something the size of a Mini-Mag. If he manages to do it, I'll buy one!


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## andrewwynn (Jun 13, 2006)

270.. it's not LIPO powered.. so it's maybe 2x the size it could be.. which is the main point i think of this thread... the 35W model BI is working on is a 'get the feet wet' situation before going balls to the walls powerful.. very smart. He's not aiming for super small.. he's aiming for 'small for the power'.. >400W

I'm aiming for super small.. 'til i have >3000L from the likes of M6 size i won't be satisfied.

-awr


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## Solomon MK2 (Jun 13, 2006)

AWR, 

So you'll be the one that's going to take away my hard earned? :laughing: 

Too bad you only deal in incans and LEDs. I WANT A Mini-MAG HID!!!

 

Oh well, I guess that means I'll have to wait a few months for BadInstincts solution.


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## Solomon MK2 (Jun 13, 2006)

BadInstincts,

I really support you in this endeavour. It's being able to push the boundaries, venture into the unknown, and challenge the status quo that sparks the imagination and causes innovation.

I'm hoping that you'll be able to do something that many others could only have dreamed of... show the old hands a thing or two. Open a few eyes to the possibilities... and maybe spark a new generation of flashlight creativity and ingenuity. 

Well done in your endeavours, and please keep us informed. I for one am very interested in your progress! 

Solomon


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## badinstincts (Jun 16, 2006)

Alright, just a few more hundred dollars to spend in high powered lasers and I will start the project. I think I'll order the hids tomorrow. I really want the 50W, so I'll make my mind up on that tomorrow. I've done a lot of research on how light works and what I can possibly do to make the spot smaller and everything, so I'm hoping my project will be highly successful... (I've mostly done the research because of my addiction to lasers, but I'm sure I'll switch over to spot lights very fast once I see what I can do with one) 

ohh and my dad just got a new Murano with hids and I can already pretty much see how powerful they are, especially once I focus the beam better.

For the 1kw or 2kw short-arc project, I will still need a little help finding a ballast/ignitor and bulbs...

And Like i said many times, the NEW Thunder Power 20C cells provide the needed power in a very small size, and they DO NOT SAG MUCH! Shesh... I've tested and tested again on my airplanes and I WAS SHOCKED at how powerful and reliable they are, and not 1 has puffed or exploded or anything from using them up to their recommended max current (20C 10sec bursts, and around 15C continuous), and I did overcharge them by accident too (which is mainly the only reason why one would explode and make napalm) and they still recovered and still provide the same power as new... (ohh and I even had one shorted for over 5 minutes, it only puffed, was really hot, and leaked very little, I did throw it away right away, I didn't see it explode or anything after many hours of watching it)


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## cnjl3 (Jun 22, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> I myself am not interested in the LiPO -> big light solution Like he's working on... I'm interested in a 100W incan that is the size of an M6.. i'm VERY interested in such a device. The latest calculations for the latest design come out to.. 1900/2600/3550L for 33/24/19 minutes.. some extremely useful values for a light smaller than a 2D mag.
> 
> awr


 
I would think that the Surefire M6 w/IRC bulb w/FM's M6 extensions would allow you the flexability to complete the above mod?


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## andrewwynn (Jun 23, 2006)

sadly, no.. like the initial talk about LiPO and mods.. have to make your own body if you want small and LiPO.. fitting square pegs in round holes just is not efficient use of space no matter how you stack it. So.. it is no 'mod' of the M6.. it's a ground-up light built around LiPO packs 'about the size' of an M6. I was designing it around the 64625 lamp but now i'm aiming to make it based on the IRC lamps instead. 

I will second B.I. commentary on the relative safety of LiPo.. i killed a LiPo by dropping something metal on my bench and shorting out the cell.. got to watch one of the tabs turn completely incandescent.. 100% of the tab was a lamp filament for a few seconds! the battery afterwards became useless but i didn't throw it out.. i drew a big 'unhappy face' on it so i could keep it straight with the other one i had just like it.. but that turned out to be a moot point after a while.. as the bad one puffed up to about 70% thicker than normal.. but i didn't notice 'til weeks later.. when i noticed the puffing i kept it for a week or so to show people than threw it out before it leaked on me. 

-awr


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## chesterqw (Jun 23, 2006)

now now, how much amp is YOUR plane drawing from the LiPo batteries?


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## twentysixtwo (Oct 16, 2006)

This thread's been very quiet for a while - any updates? 

Just a skeptic hoping to be proven wrong....


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## chesterqw (Oct 16, 2006)

don't think there is any update...


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## WhiteHot (Oct 16, 2006)

Apparently it wasnt quite as easy as he thought. I for one am shocked


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## andrewwynn (Oct 17, 2006)

funny line.. any news on this? I still have some really remarkably small high-power lights in the works.. starting with 2D 3500L and then 1.5D size with the same output. 

-awr


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## Led_Blind (Oct 17, 2006)

Im sorry badinstincts, but after reading many of your posts re shorting LiPo's and actually picking up and throwing an expanded cell i believe you have been extreeeeeeemly lucy. (Andrewwynn - wow, a red hot filament right there where you can touch it! just kidding) 

I fly RC helicopters and use the same cells as you have described. Yes they are fantastic and operate very well under load. I have however seen these cells misbehave.

Friends and i were out in the local park flying but ran into a small incendiary problem. Tony (the friend) had used 12guage wire to connect to the speed controller but had failed to heat shrink the soldered connections. Mid flight these bare + and - came together and fused.... what came next was a very loud pop followed by the pack ejecting its self from the front of the heli (all this happened in mid flight). The helli fell but the battery pac was propelled by a jet of flame and traveled the length of a soccer(football) field. The heli was all but destroyed. 

Now actualy throwing an expanded cell right after it had expanded is akin to handling a live grenade. In the above story we went to check out the remains of the 3s2p battery. Two of its cells were destroyed, the third was very fat. No one wanted to pick it up so tony poked it with a stick and were immediately treated to yet another pop, more fire and racing hearts. 

Your idea here is sound, just please... please think of safety. These cells are a bit safer than normal Li-on's but their massive current potential is the problem. At 15c the packs get a bit warm... in an open windy environment. Inside an enclosed using 6s2p or greater consider heat management. Hot LiPos go bang easier.

for my last 2c
Lithium fires are nasty, they draw the oxygen right out of water molecules and halide based fire suppressants dont work.


PS. How goes your build?


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