# How to identify an IED-(Improvised Explosive Device)



## Daniel Ramsey (Aug 16, 2002)

First thing is to NOT turn it on!
With all the latest advancements in Luxeon or encapsulated LED technology it may be hard to spot a phony Luxeon, or on the other hand personnel involved with carryon screening may have no idea what a Luxeon is....
This is about possibly helping to spot a flashlight bomb that is meant to harm.
So this forum is started to help anyone needing to know about bogus flashlights, myself I will add what I know and not to give any details about constructing such a device, please follow that guideline friends.

Constructive dialogue is appreciated, thanks.


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## Saaby (Aug 16, 2002)

Check to see if there are just plain lithium 123s in there or something, well, dangerous.

Don't drop it!!


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## brightnorm (Aug 16, 2002)

If the bomber's intention is to maim and kill people on the ground either suicidally or via remote control before screening there is probably no way to stop him, using present methods. If the intent is to bring down a plane in a suicide mission then there is no incentive for a pre-boarding explosion via flashlight "ignition" and he can be stopped using "sniffer" techniques like those currently in use when I recently returned to the States on Air Canada. 

The big sniffer/scanners should be ready for deployment in the near future. Unfortunately they are unaffordable by minor carriers without federal or state subsidies. Portable sniffers will continue to improve, but the fact that 25% of "armed" airport penetrations recently staged by our security forces went undetected shows how far we have to go.

EL-AL style searches and interviews as well as 100% air marshall coverage are probably unworkable given our thousands of daily flights.

Pre airPORT screening is another idea currently under conideration, but the most effective approach will most likely be a combination of those mentioned along with identity recognition technology and increasingly sophisticated explosive molecule detection and imaging devices, along with highly trained and motivated security personnel.

As a further deterrant, anyone attempting to use a flashlight as an explosive device will have to be made to face... *US!!!* 

Brightnorm


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## Marshall Johnson (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by Daniel Ramsey:
> *First thing is to NOT turn it on!
> With all the latest advancements in Luxeon or encapsulated LED technology it may be hard to spot a phony Luxeon, or on the other hand personnel involved with carryon screening may have no idea what a Luxeon is....
> This is about possibly helping to spot a flashlight bomb that is meant to harm.
> ...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've read a few of your posts, and you are definitely paranoid. I find it amusing that you are seriously worried about flashlights being turned into bombs. Sure, flashlights CAN be turned into bombs, but worrying about it and posting it on a flashlight group seems a bit strange. Do you post on car newsgroups and warn people that car dealerships may slip bombs into their cars or post on sport newsgroups and warn them that there may be explosives in their footballs and baseballs?

A determined terrorist cannot be stopped. You can make a bomb out of ANYTHING that takes up space. It doesn't matter if it's your suitcase, your shoes, your flashlight (incandescent or LED), your wallet, a pen, ANYTHING.

Everyone knows this, so please stop posting these paranoid schizophrenic-like posts.

Thanks.

PS- the CIA told me to write this, they broadcasted the commands out of a black helicopter and controlled my actions via a filling in my tooth.


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## Daniel Ramsey (Aug 17, 2002)

Is being paranoid nowadays illegal? I will go head to head with anybody if they wish to be complacent sheep and allow our homeland to be attacked, its bad enough our children are being hurt and kidnapped on an almost daily basis. Someday soon we may experience what Israel faces and that is the F-11's or the "homicide bombers".
As far as my background you must be new here and I have been away for several months, just ask any of the regulars here who I am.
We ARE at war or has New Jersey decided its immune?


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## Graham (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by Marshall Johnson:
> * I find it amusing that you are seriously worried about flashlights being turned into bombs. Sure, flashlights CAN be turned into bombs, but worrying about it and posting it on a flashlight group seems a bit strange.*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a discussion forum, and everyone is entitled to post their opinion, but I think your post was unnecessarily harsh and personal.
Anyone can comment on another persons' posts, but requesting them to stop posting in the manner you have done is unwarranted, in my opinion. Daniel is entitled to post here as much as anyone, and I think this subject is not something to take too lightly.

I suggest you have a quick look at this thread, if you haven't already:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002302 

As for worrying about it and posting about it on a flashlight forum, why not? There are a broad range of subjects discussed here which relate to the flashlights and the flashlight industry, and this is just one of them.

Graham


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## Bushman (Aug 17, 2002)

Easy guys. This is appropriate material and there is no reason to get up in arms about it. Everybody has thier right to post here. Let's just not get to each other... If you disagree then kindy move your posts to threads that are of more interest to you. No contributions here are taken lightly... Thank you, Bushman (moderator)


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## Jonathan (Aug 17, 2002)

I am going to agree part way with Marshall; I do believe that Daniel is being 'paranoid' in his response to the risk that flashlights pose as terrorist weapons. But gosh Marshall, you are slinging paranoid like an insult rather than a statement of fact, and you are not taking the time to explain why this is actually a problem.

'Paranoid' is generally used to describe excessive or irrational fear, eg. that your friends are not really your friends, or that the CIA is trying to kill you, etc. 'Crazy talk'. There is _nothing_ illegal about it, and in fact it is part of normal human thought processes to distort the association between fear and risk. Just ask anyone who is scared of nuclear power plants but not much more scared of coal fired power plants.

Fear is a normal human emotion, and unknown and unknowable risks are a _normal_ part of life in this universe. We don't know when the next terrorist will strike, we don't know how the next terrorist will strike. We don't know when the next comet will smash the Earth into an ice age. We don't know who will have the next heart attack. We don't know which drugs will cause heart valve failure as a side effect. We try to learn, and we try to adapt our actions based upon our assessment of the risks.

The problem with a 'paranoid' assessment of risks is that one might take a particular danger and inflate the risk associated with it, to the point that one starts ignoring other, _greater_ risks. There is no problem with an irrational fear of flashlights as bombs, unless you happen to be an inspection officer who is so overwhelmed checking the flashlights that you miss the 'modeling clay'. 

A 'paranoid' assessment of the risks might lead one to avoid using beneficial tools because they might be turned into weapons. People avoiding vaccinations because of a small but very real risk of side effects, and thus exposing themselves to a much greater risk of the disease would be an example of this. 

I personally believe that the banning of knives from aircraft is a 'paranoid' decision of our government. Face it: small knives and box cutters were sufficient to take an aircraft because of surprise, and because the rules had changed. If the knife rules were the same as before 9/11, then for the most part, 'good guys' would have knives, and knife wielding terrorists wouldn't stand a change. I believe that the risks associated with terrorists carrying knives (very real and demonstrated in a terrible way) are less than the benefits of having good people free to carry useful tools. (I personally know people who use knives beneficially every day






I believe that Daniel's assessment of the risk associated with flashlights to be 'paranoid' in the sense that I believe that it overstates the risk and might lead one to give less weight to the benefits of flashlights, or to ignore a greater risk.

However flashlights (and in general battery operated devices) do deserve some amount of additional scrutiny, because batteries do share a number of characteristics with explosive devices, including mutually reactive chemicals placed inside of a pressure containing package, controlled release of energy at high rates, and easy portability.

The highest energy density batteries available present a significant fire and explosion hazard if overcharged or short circuited. Flashlights and cell phones have already been used as explosive devices, I presume with the use of more conventional explosives packed in them rather than with the batteries, however it would be a small leap of technology to build an entirely sealed device which looks like a battery, but contains explosive materials. Etc. There is enough here that I believe it warrants consideration, if only to produce a more rational and precise assessment of the real risks involved.

To close: There are _real_ risks associated with flashlights, however I believe that they are small. Those with the interest and ability should try to assess just how big the risks really are. While being mindful of one source of risk, we should not ignore other risks, especially if the other risks are realistically greater. Finally, "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean no one's out to get you". As was stated above: a terrorist could make _anything_ into a bomb. Be aware of what is happening around you.


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## lightlover (Aug 17, 2002)

Like Bushman said.

Jahn

_CPF posting policy ... personal attacks ... to be avoided ... heat of the moment ... tolerance ... etiquette ... etc. etc._


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## Greta (Aug 17, 2002)

"Attack the post, not the poster" ... I heard that once from this administrator at my very first bulletin board. He eventually moved on to another bulletin board... something about candles?



... but I never forgot it. 

If the content of the post is something that you disagree with, then by all means, dispute it! Everyone has a right to post their thoughts, opinions and ideas here... whether you agree with it or not. 

Take it down a notch guys. It's an interesting topic!


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## treek13 (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by Sasha:
> *"Attack the post, not the poster"*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent advice, that candle guy you mentioned must be very wise.





After all, I personally believe that the greatest thing about bulletin boards like this one is the opportunity to freely express ideas and discuss them. 

If you explain why you disagree with a post, you can encourage discussion which could lead to positions and opinions changing (possibly even your own). But when you attack the poster, you either stifle discussion and/or it devolves into attacks and nothing new is learned.

Just the humble opinion of a guy who likes the opportunity to learn new things because I've got a lot to learn



, Pat

Edit* Of course this is all assuming the poster doesn't say something truly crazy like, "The stock Mag-lite Solitaire is infinitely superior to the Arc-AAA."


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## Greta (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by treek13:
> *Edit* Of course this is all assuming the poster doesn't say something truly crazy like, "The stock Mag-lite Solitaire is infinitely superior to the Arc-AAA."
> 
> 
> ...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG! In which case, then all bets are off and tarring and feathering and dragging through the village square and stringing up as the village idiot are all well within reason...


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## treek13 (Aug 17, 2002)

Yep and you can only imagine how Darell and Saaby would react to such blasphemy.


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## Greta (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by treek13:
> *Yep and you can only imagine how Darell and Saaby would react to such blasphemy.*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I shudder...


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## Saaby (Aug 17, 2002)

I have 2 repeating nightmares. One wouldn't interest anyone here but I'd be happy to tell you about it if you eMailed me, 2 is that I am in a world where everyone has an Arc and I am stuck with a Mag Solitare, Eveready "2 piece" (Ya know, $2 flashlight with "heavy duty" batteries), or other plainly inferior flashlight and I can't get my hands on a decent torch!

By the way, nobody make claims like that ok...I might have to hack the UBB software, make myslef a moderator, and delete the post if somone made a claim like that.

About Daniel being paranoid, I don't see why talking about how to ID a flashlight turned into a bomb means he's paranoid. I think it's a great subject. Somewhat trivial, but still a great subject.

So...so far we have this:

If you come across a lowly flashlight, at a cime scene or otherwise, you might want to do a few things before picking up that E2 and shipping it back to mikep :

Don't turn it on.
Make sure there are just lithium 123s in there, not TNT.
Don't drop it!


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## Size15's (Aug 17, 2002)

We are watching you.

Paranoid? Not nearly enough.

Mobile phone bombs are the are scaring the hell out of several people. They refuse to be within 2 miles of anyone using a mobile phone (you may think that the tops of mountains are safe, but the last time I was at the top of a mountain (somewhere in the Swiss Alps) everybody was on their mobiles.





I guess that when asked by security "_Has this flashlight been separated from you in the last 24 hours?_" You reply "_Are you nuts?! This is my ArcLS/SureFire A2/etc! I've not been separated from this since I got it!_"

Harry Enfield has a character for this thread but he's someone you have to hear to understand...

Al


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## Empath (Aug 17, 2002)

If I may approach Dan's original thoughts, thank you Dan. I appreciate that you are using your personal involvement in this particular situation to help us understand and avoid what could be a tragic situation.

I've never in my life ever seen a pipe bomb. But, after hearing accounts of those maimed or killed by them, and after hearing the advice of the experts and those offering advice, there are certain precautions I'd take. For one thing, if I should happen upon something that I could imagine as such in unusual situations, such as finding a suspicious pipe in my mailbox, I wouldn't touch it. First I'd put some distance between me and the pipe, then I'd contact those whose job is to serve in evaluating and disarming such devices. After it's all over, it may very well be that my concerns were unnecessary. Regardless, it's prudent to recognize that there are some that for some reason or the other make special efforts to injure or kill. It could be for political reasons, hatred for some particular race, religion, or even something as inane as an urge. Fortunately it's not commonplace enough under many people's circumstance to merit a constant vigil, but it still happens.

So, since I can see that someone using a pipe loaded with explosives might worry that their device might easily arouse suspicion, they might make use of something less suspicious, such as a flashlight. The containment, the ability to seal the package, and even a natural tendency for a victim to activate an easy ignition is there. I'd think the first reasonable precaution would be to recognize when a flashlight is suspicious. Just as with a suspicious pipe, in a mail box, a road, walkway or any place that one wouldn't see reason for it being there could be enough to merit avoidance and reporting. Ah, but a flashlight is a difficult thing not to pick up. But, it could be best to realize the potential.

In my city a few years ago, the staff of a public agency on arriving at work found a sack leaning against the door of their building. For some reason someone became suspicious and notified the police. The police took it serious enough to consider it a bomb, and sent the bomb squad to remove it. The suspicions were correct. Had someone out of curiosity simple picked it up and checked inside, it could have injured or killed several. As a result, warnings were issued to the local public agencies and schools cautioning them to treat any such packages found "out of place" to be treated as a suspected bomb. People became mindful due to circumstances, whereas ordinarily they wouldn't have been concerned. Certain circumstances can give reason for special concern.

For those that are new and don't know Dan, he use to sell and ship the neatest little AAA Legend mod, which we simply called the Ramsey Legend Mod. It was a very well modified AAA light that had been converted to an LED flashlight using one 12 volt security type battery. It was outstanding. Following the September 11 acts, the post office and possibly others became interested in the lights he shipped. We never got all the details, nor are we entitled to them. However, they were apparently sufficient enough to cause Dan to discontinue shipping them out of Alaska. I'd say that circumstances were sufficient for Dan to become more concerned. I for one appreciate Dan's efforts to share his concerns, and that he cares enough to offer his thoughts on what is apparently to him a very real concern.

In answer to your question, Dan. My only real suggestions would be to recognize when a flashlight is not where or as it should be, leave it alone, and contact the authorities for advice.


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## BrightShadow (Aug 17, 2002)

Step one: See bomb in your mailbox

Step two: Boooooogggiiiieeeeeee.( plainspeak- Run like mad)

Sasha- You and your smiliesLOL


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## Marshall Johnson (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by Daniel Ramsey:
> *Is being paranoid nowadays illegal? I will go head to head with anybody if they wish to be complacent sheep and allow our homeland to be attacked, its bad enough our children are being hurt and kidnapped on an almost daily basis. Someday soon we may experience what Israel faces and that is the F-11's or the "homicide bombers".
> As far as my background you must be new here and I have been away for several months, just ask any of the regulars here who I am.
> We ARE at war or has New Jersey decided its immune?*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are not at war. No formal declaration of war was stated, therefore we are not at war. The "War on Terrorism" is beginning to seem like the "War on Drugs"- more political ammo than actual substance.

And NJ isn't immune to anything. With a huge Muslim population not all of which is exactly friendly to the US, many problems related to terrorism will be centered here. In fact, on Sept. 11th there were actually groups of people cheering in support of the attacks.


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## Marshall Johnson (Aug 17, 2002)

And let me point one thing out- I'm not trying to personally attack Daniel. I don't even know him. But I can read his posts and I think he sounds a little "off".

Also, I am not striking down his points because he's right that you could make a bomb out of a flashlight or anything for that matter. It's not his point that I find odd, it's the level of fanatical concern he seems to have which I find irrational.

Think of it this way- The Sun will someday burn out. That is a given. But wouldn't you find it odd if you knew someone who spent their time worrying about it?


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## Empath (Aug 17, 2002)

Dan, I know it wasn't your intent for this thread to veer so far off topic of the forum, but it has lost relevance to homemade and flashlight mods. It has become politically oriented to the point that our CAFÉ forum is the only group available.

Marshall, even though you're new, I hope you can state your opinions and disagreements without ad hominem remarks. That may be the nature of Usenet and some other groups, and perhaps in those places in may be necessary for survival. It hasn't, however, been characteristic of CPF.

I'm moving it to THE CAFÉ. You may follow it here.


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