# Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps - AW Added



## LuxLuthor (Aug 23, 2008)

I just did a CBA-II discharge shootout of the safe Lithium chemistries that I have discussed in other threads, such as this one. Thumbnail images, and graphs with detail capacity and how they hold voltage at *5, 10, & 15 Amp* discharge rates. The factory capacity specs (as one might expect) are more optimistic than reality shows. 

None of these other 6 cells have a protection circuit in them. They were all taken from various battery packs as described in this thread. I just added the nice performing AW IMR-18650 sold in this thread for $9

The cells started at room temp. They did not got warm with 5 Amp test, but all got warm/slightly hot (80-90° F) at 10 Amp discharge test. 

At the *15 Amp discharge they got HOT*, reaching peak temps listed below (verified by laser thermometer & Fluke 179):*Sony VT - 115° F*
 *Sanyo - 125° F*
*A123 - 125° F* 
*Sony V - 135° F*
*Emoli - 135° F* 
*AW - 133° F*
 
​

 



Added Sony V & VT label images. See AW's sales link or post #5 below images.


----------



## AW (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

Let me throw in some test results of my own brand of Li-MN 18650s. These are designed for flashlight use with a featured button top for better cell to cell connection. Discharge graph shown a pair of cells for consistency test from 3A to 15A :


----------



## Rommul (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

Thanks.

This is very helpful.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*



AW said:


> Let me throw in some test results of my own brand of Li-MN 18650s. These are designed for flashlight use with a featured button top for better cell to cell connection. Discharge graph shown a pair of cells for consistency test from 3A to 15A :


*
AW, what is your timeframe on these? Also, can you perhaps narrow the CBA display ranges for graph, as I cannot read your legend. I set my display graph properties to display from 2.00V to 4.200V & from 0 Ah to 1.7 Ah. (Photo size 800 pixels wide)*

So it sounds like yours are going to do better than either Emoli or Sony/Sanyo/Konion ? That would be an amazing accomplishment, given their resources !!! I'm not doubting you, just amazed that the "big guys" can be outperformed.


----------



## AW (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

Photobucket is limiting my picture size to 799 x 438 so I can't make it bigger. I would say the performance of these cells are on par with the Konion V cells ( both rated 1600mAH ).


----------



## shakeylegs (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

Lux - thank you for this very helpful data. Excellent work.

AW - Wawaweewahhhh, very exciting to see your new bats! Do you have a time frame for availability?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

Ahhh that's better...what was confusing me was the 3A being at bottom of legend that I though was referring to 15A set of lines. FYI bottom "X" axis has ranges of 0.2Ah increments


----------



## AW (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

Yeah I was too lazy and I decided to add the 2C tests when I finished the 5A / 10A / 15A tests.


----------



## J.D. (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*



AW said:


> Let me throw in some test results of my own brand of Li-MN 18650s. These are designed for flashlight use with a featured button top for better cell to cell connection. Discharge graph shown a pair of cells for consistency test from 3A to 15A :



Pretty impressive 
are you planning to offer those ?


----------



## AW (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

Don't want to hijack this thread so I won't discuss anything that 'll promote my new cells.

Lux, you may want to do a 15A test on those cells and pay special attention on the temperature because they 'll heat up by a margin ( even though all of them have a very low internal resistance ~30mOhm ). There is a reason why the 26500/26700 cells are using paper wrappers.


----------



## J.D. (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*



AW said:


> Don't want to hijack this thread so I won't discuss anything that 'll promote my new cells.



 you're right...


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*



AW said:


> Don't want to hijack this thread so I won't discuss anything that 'll promote my new cells.
> 
> Lux, you may want to do a 15A test on those cells and pay special attention on the temperature because they 'll heat up by a margin ( even though all of them have a very low internal resistance ~30mOhm ). There is a reason why the 26500/26700 cells are using paper wrappers.



AW, I started this thread to keep educating people on these safe chemistry cells, and if you have them coming for sale, please give details here as desired so it is all in one place. Otherwise people have to harvest these from various tool packs. 

As a general guideline, most of the tool pack sources are averaging about $8-10/cell from Ebay sales (only get new packs & after EBay seller reputatin is verified by ratings), although there is a 20 cell Bosch 36V pack that used to be selling for $73 with free shipping from Amazon...which now almost doubled in price. Glad I got some last week. Then there is the need for a security hex wrench to remove screws, and careful pulling apart cells without shorting or damaging anything, and the time cleaning them up. oo:

Thanks for heads up on the heat. I wish the CBA-II also stored temp profiles for graph since it displays it live. For the first round of these tests, I just charged them all in a Pila IBC charger until green light. Except charged two A123 in series with Hyperion 1210i using that A123 profile.


----------



## Mr Happy (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

I'm trying to understand the excitement about these cells from a practical point of view.

From a brief back of the envelope calculation I estimate that one of the high drain subC NiMH cells has about the same volume as an 18650 and has about the same energy storage in watt-hours (perhaps a little less than the best LiMn cells, but not much).

On the positives for subC they have an even higher current capability, and three in series have a lower internal resistance than one LiMN cell. They have a more convenient form factor for mounting in a flashlight tube and a series pack is more convenient to charge with no need for balancing taps. By and large they are cheaper and more readily available, even considering the higher quantity needed to make up a pack.

On the positives for the lithium chemistry are the higher voltage, meaning fewer cells are needed to provide the voltage for big incans.

What am I missing? Where do the safe lithium cells win over NiMH?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

*


Mr Happy said:



...What am I missing? Where do the safe lithium cells win over NiMH?

Click to expand...

**
Well, several things...but I don't discount your questions about them. Nothing is perfect for all purposes.** 1) Safe Lithium chemistry vs. cobalt. I no longer have the fire/explosion concern with them.

2) Has higher 3.7V, so roughly equal to 3 x NiMH. Charges with more commonly available Lithium Ion/LiPo chargers. A123 brand ideally should be charged with approved charger for its lower 3.3V nominal level.

3) Gives the needed 5-15A output which is more than adequate for our hand held Elephant Mags. Granted, if you are building a hand held spotlight (i.e. Larry14K) you may need more amps from SubC.

4) Smaller form factor diameter than SubC allows more options in small diameter lights. Parallel configurations can give more reasonable mAh capacity. The overall energy per cubic centimeter may be similar, but how many of the 23mm diameter SubC's will fit in our lights? Contrast that with 4 wide of the 18650 which fit in Elephants.

5) These are relatively inexpensive. I have got some as cheap as $4 each, but average price is more like $8. Actually, the high current output NiMH of decent quality like Elite brand for only 1.2V is relatively expensive, since you need 3 x NiMH to get the same voltage. Elite 4000 SubC are $5 each; Elite 5000 SC are $7 each (plus shipping). The SC's still need to be condition balanced periodically if made into a pack.

6) Can charge these Safe Lithiums in series without balance taps, although I am collecting information on voltage balances with multiple series charge/discharge cycles in FiveMega & Modamag battery holders without balance taps.

7) Pretty high abuse tolerance of these lithium cells, although overdischarging should be avoided. 

8) Light weight relative to Nickel based cells.

9) Tolerate fast charging pretty well

10) Except at extremes, pretty low heat with charge/discharge.

11) Supposedly has hundreds of charge/discharge cycles.

12) No Self-Discharge*​*
Having said those points, there are also real limitations, such as:
**1) Less mAh than Lithium Cobalt

2) Should ideally be balance charged

3) Are not protected (mainly from over discharge)

4) Less available than Li-Co or NiMH

5) Limited form factor in Li-Ion to 26700 or 18650 sizes.*​


----------



## Raoul_Duke (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*



AW said:


> Don't want to hijack this thread so I won't discuss anything that 'll promote my new cells.
> 
> Lux, you may want to do a 15A test on those cells and pay special attention on the temperature because they 'll heat up by a margin ( even though all of them have a very low internal resistance ~30mOhm ). There is a reason why the 26500/26700 cells are using paper wrappers.




Forgive the dumb question but Whats the reason for the paper?/ obviously something to do with temperature...

But alot of people pull of the card, and re wrap with capton tape...including myself for some mods, should that not be done?




Questions aside :


Great Thread Lux!!!

And Good Effort On the Cells AW.


----------



## Mr Happy (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*



Raoul_Duke said:


> Forgive the dumb question but Whats the reason for the paper?/ obviously something to do with temperature...


I suppose because paper is more heat resistant than thermoplastic film?


----------



## AW (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

The bigger cells in power tool packs may heat up to 70-80 degree C under pulse loading of 40+ Amps. Regular shrink wrap will shrink more at this temperature posing a risk of exposed metal casing and a short. Cardboard will sustain higher temperature without any issue.


----------



## mdocod (Aug 30, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

Thank You Lux and AW for posting these results....

I was initially concerned that the alternative lithium-manganese cells popping up in packs, (like the newer Ryobi you tore open) might be of lesser quality, but after looking at your charts, for practical purposes, there appears to be very little difference to be concerned about. 

Eric


----------



## SilverFox (Aug 31, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

I have added this thread to the "Threads of Interest" at the head of this section so we can keep track of it.

Tom


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 31, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

Thanks Tom! For reference, I bought the Bosch 36V pack with 20 x Sony cells, and these present yet another version of Lithium Manganese cell from the ones I listed in first post. This is green model *SF-US18650-**VT* which looks almost identical from initial shown *US18650-V* model.

However these two Sony models apparently have different mAh capacities from each other, and different discharge performance rates. Initial reports (& from Sony's website) claims the "VT" model has 1100mAh, whereas "V" model is 1500mAh. 

I will test these Bosch pack "VT" models at 5 & 10 Amps and add to above performance curves. I also plan to do 15A discharge rates on all these cells.


----------



## geek4christ (Aug 31, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

First of all, thanks for all the work you're doing in the "safe chemistry" threads. I've been following along and really like what I'm seeing in terms of performance:safety ratio.

Now, a question. Would you consider doing a discharge test of some of the chinese LiFePO4 cells? I see that the A123s are very admirable in their ability to hold voltage at high drain rates, but I'm skeptical that the cheaper ones will do as well. Maybe try these or the KaiDomain cells (or both)? I haven't been able to find actual discharge comparisons between the regular LiFe cells and the ones with doped nanophosphate cathodes.

EDIT: Ermm, found this graph that pretty much answers my question. Still though, for flashlights where 30C discharge rates aren't needed, the cheaper non-nano LiFe cells are viable. So I still ask...you up for doing a discharge test on some?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

I added *Sony VT* (from Bosch pack) results, and did all 5 cells at 15Amps. These plots replace what I had in first post, so you may need to refresh your browser.


----------



## mdocod (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

thanks for the update!


----------



## geek4christ (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

What makes the emoli dip so much initially and then return to a really respectable voltage all the way to the knee in the 15A curve?


----------



## mdocod (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

it's a sign that the cell is stressed pretty hard. The voltage rise later is usually caused by the cell heating up, "exciting" the electrolyte. Same thing can be seen on CR123s when tested at 2.5A. 

Eric


----------



## geek4christ (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

Makes sense, thanks MD. AWs 18650 did the same thing at 5A.


----------



## rpage53 (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

The main advantage of LiFePO4 or LiMn over NiMH has to be the lack of self-discharge. You can grab the flashlight after a month on the shelf and still have full capacity. The hybrid NiMH (Eneloops) are similar in that regard but have lower energy density.

Voltage controlled charging (with Li) is also more reliable than delta-V (with Ni ) but over-charging a single NiMH with a good charger is now rare. Having said that, the only reason that "safe" chemistry matters is that Li cells are often over-charged anyway, so this turns out to be a wash.

Rick.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 2, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*



rpage53 said:


> The main advantage of LiFePO4 over NiMH has to be the lack of self-discharge. You can grab the flashlight after a month on the shelf and still have full capacity. The hybrid NiMH (Eneloops) are similar in that regard but have lower energy density.
> 
> Voltage controlled charging (with Li) is also more reliable than delta-V (with Ni ) but over-charging a single NiMH with a good charger is now rare. Having said that, the only reason that "safe" chemistry matters is that Li cells are often over-charged anyway, so this turns out to be a wash.
> 
> Rick.



Just so everyone is clear, in this thread....only the A123 is LiFePO4 (technically, the A123 Systems Inc. cell uses "Nano[Lithium-Iron]-Phosphate.") The others are some variation of Lithium Manganese in their cathode, and have a whole different voltage and capacity.

All Li-Ion's have negligible self-discharge, so that is not the appeal of "safe lithium" chemistry cells. We have been using Lithium Cobalt _(preferrably with protection circuits--the best coming from Pila or CPF member "AW")_, but despite their higher mAh capacity, Lithium Cobalt are limited to about 5-5.5 Amps output, and have the typical Lithium Cobalt safety concern. 

This thread is about the non-Lithium Cobalt Ion "Safe" chemistries that have the benefits I outlined in post #14 above.


----------



## rpage53 (Sep 2, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

The question was "Why these cells instead of NiMH" and very few of your answers applied.


----------



## HarryN (Sep 2, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*



rpage53 said:


> The question was "Why these cells instead of NiMH" and very few of your answers applied.



There are always lot of interesting trade offs about the optimum cell size / voltage / power density, etc. Once you venture into both flashlights and the world of RC cars and airplanes, it gets even more interesting.

As an example, my 10 year old (and I) have an r/c truck, which runs on nominal 7.2 volt sub C packs. We have some 5,000 mah NiMH packs, and they are quite powerful (as pointed out by Mr. Happy), but, there is a heck of a weight penalty over Li based cells. For use by a 10 year old, safety trumped all, so mass did not matter, but the difference is quite substantial.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have made a couple of 2 x CR2 lights driving Lux Vs. It can be very handy to have 2 very small cells with enough voltage to be above the LED Vf, as this makes the electronics relatively simple.

A single Li Ion cell can drive an LED directly without a voltage boost. Driving a voltage boost circuit from a single NiMH cell is quite challenging - maybe almost impossible. 1.2 volts isn't much.

Once you start getting into mag size lights, it probably does not matter as much, esp, if weight is not important.


----------



## Tronic (Sep 2, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

Lux,

Thank you for the graph. It is very interesting to compare this cells.

The Sony *18650-VT *are for high drain application and the *18650-**V* are for low drain application. 
I can email you the datasheet if you don't have it already.
My 18650V are rated for [email protected] average (1500mAh minimum)

FYI, this Sony cells are also available as 14500V (680mAh @0.2C)
I can run a discharge test with this 14500 on my CBAII if you are interested. 
(I know that this would be slightly off topic but just in case you want to know.)

-Daniel


LuxLuthor said:


> Thanks Tom! For reference, I bought the Bosch 36V pack with 20 x Sony cells, and these present yet another version of Lithium Manganese cell from the ones I listed in first post. This is green model *SF-US18650-**VT* which looks almost identical from initial shown *US18650-V* model.
> 
> However these two Sony models apparently have different mAh capacities from each other, and different discharge performance rates. Initial reports (& from Sony's website) claims the "VT" model has 1100mAh, whereas "V" model is 1500mAh.
> 
> I will test these Bosch pack "VT" models at 5 & 10 Amps and add to above performance curves. I also plan to do 15A discharge rates on all these cells.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 3, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*



rpage53 said:


> The question was "Why these cells instead of NiMH" and very few of your answers applied.



That's one opinion. "_*What we've got here is failure to communicate*_." (*Cool Hand Luke*) 

In reality, I answered all the relevant points comparing safe lithium vs. NiMH in my post #14. Again the point is that none of the safe chemistry cells in my first post use LiFePO4, except the A123 cell. 

Ideally, the A123 cell needs a special charger to accommodate their lower 3.3V nominal, and they are of more limited availability and price than the other Lithium Manganese cells. In addition there are already a plethora of low-self discharge NiMH cells led by Sanyo's Eneloop, so that is no longer a difference, nor the reason to consider safe lithium chemistry cells.



Tronic said:


> Lux,
> 
> Thank you for the graph. It is very interesting to compare this cells.
> 
> ...



Excellent information. Thank you sir!


----------



## mdocod (Sep 3, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

Ok, I have some questions LuxLuthor!!! 

I was reading your "lithium ion categories" thread and noticed that the charging voltage requirement for those "Lithium Nickel Cobalt Manganese" chemistry cells. Listed as 4.10V instead of 4.20V....

This has me curious.... I'm assuming that the Sony/Konian cells in the tests above are this "Lithium Nickel Cobalt Manganese" chemistry and was wondering how critical the 4.10V charge voltage is.... and what charge voltage you used for the comparisons above.

Thank You,

Eric


----------



## billw (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*



> there are already a plethora of low-self discharge NiMH cells led by Sanyo's Eneloop, so that is no longer a difference, nor the reason to consider safe lithium chemistry cells.


Um. The comparison requested was between 5000mAh sub-C NiMH cells (6 WH) and the "safe" Li-ion cells at about 1.6AH (3.6V nominal, ~5.7 WH.) However, the C-sized (NOT sub-C) eneloops are only 3000mAH. As far as I know, high-capacity, low-self-discharge, sub-C NiMH batteries are a lot harder to put your hands on than even A123 cells...


----------



## Tronic (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

mdocod,

I can only comment on the Sony Mangenese cells.
The datasheet say that you can charge these cells to 4.20V.
But you get better cycle life if you only charge to 4.10V. Discharge current have also a great influience on cycle life.

Here are 2 graph of the Sony 18650VT cell. I hope that this can answer your question.


----------



## mdocod (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

Thank You Tronic!

That's just what I needed. 

Eric


----------



## mdocod (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

I think I'll piggy-back this question here as I think it's relevant to general "safe chemistry" li-ion discussion. 

Ok.... so maybe someone can help me with this little debocle....

just received a Ryobi pack from an ebayer. It was being sold as "new"

I got it opened up and found 10 Emoli's

problem is they are all reading between 1.32 - 1.68V per cell.

I have not torn down the pack yet as I think this thing might be going back... (dissembled just far enough to get to the block of cells and test them)

Anyone else tested cell voltages from a "new" pack- or have any recommendations on whether or not these cells will take a charge and perform?

Should tear em down and give them a try? Or put it back together and contact the seller?

I've got a pretty good case that the sale is misrepresented as this is very obviously not in any sort of "new" condition. I assume tool li-ion packs come from the factory like other li-ion cells, with ~70% charge for optimal long-term storage. 

Eric


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 11, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

FWI, all the packs I have taken apart had cells very closely matched in voltage.


----------



## Chodes (Sep 11, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

I bought an ebay Makita BL1830 pack - 10 x Sony 18650V.
I can't say I'm that impressed , maybe I need educating?
Used an e-station BC6-10 to discharge and graph discharge at 4.5A.
While initially voltage held about 3.5V , it had dropped to 3V in around 13 minutes.
Comparing to an Ultrafire protected 18650 , it started around 3.25 v and took 
23 minutes to drop to 3V. So twice the time with half the variation in voltage - far more suitable for a hotwire.

So should I be discharging the Sony to lower than 3V? If I did , obviously an even larger voltage range between initial volts and end volts.

Heres the 4.5A discharge graphs:

edit: I forgot to mention - tried 4 Sonys with a 64623 - measured 8.8A with fresh cells and dropping. 13x2/3 AA Elite1500 pack measures 9.7A with pack 3/4 charged. 












The Sony Cell:


----------



## AW (Sep 11, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

Chodes,

Looks like you've got a bad pack. Healthy cells should be like :


----------



## Chodes (Sep 12, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*



AW said:


> Chodes,
> 
> Looks like you've got a bad pack. Healthy cells should be like :


 
Yes , that seems to be the case. I was trying to convince myself I had not blown $115.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 12, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

Chodes, how were you charging these cells? Did you take pack apart and individually charge each cell, or some other method? It is important to make sure they had a full & proper charge. 

Having said that, it is not uncommon that some dump their defective/abused packs on EBay...but I would first make sure you got full, complete charges.


----------



## mdocod (Sep 12, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*



LuxLuthor said:


> FWI, all the packs I have taken apart had cells very closely matched in voltage.



Aside from "matched" voltage, have you ever had a pack who's cells had such low voltage readings as this one I tore down?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 12, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*



mdocod said:


> Aside from "matched" voltage, have you ever had a pack who's cells had such low voltage readings as this one I tore down?



Not sure how low they were, but almost all of the Ryobi One + 18V packs with Sony V cells intentionally ship with *very low voltage (0.7V) *to minimize short/arc dangers during transit, and is mentioned in their product circular. They charge up to normal 4.2V

I have not seen this low shipping voltage with Emoli cells, however.


----------



## Chodes (Sep 12, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*



LuxLuthor said:


> Chodes, how were you charging these cells? Did you take pack apart and individually charge each cell, or some other method? It is important to make sure they had a full & proper charge.
> 
> Having said that, it is not uncommon that some dump their defective/abused packs on EBay...but I would first make sure you got full, complete charges.


 
I used the BC6-10 , set to LiIo 3.6V , 2.5A. I waited for the trickle charge to complete. Cells were charged individually.
All 10 cells measured 3.65v open circuit when removed from the (new) pack. I'll do some more testing.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 12, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*



Chodes said:


> I used the BC6-10 , set to LiIo 3.6V , 2.5A. I waited for the trickle charge to complete. Cells were charged individually.
> All 10 cells measured 3.65v open circuit when removed from the (new) pack. I'll do some more testing.



Chodes, after discharging, I would recommend charging as *LiPo **(3.7 V nominal)* at *0.6 to 1.0 Amp rate*. Set termination of discharge to 2.5V to get more capacity graphed.


----------



## Chodes (Sep 12, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

Thanks Lux.
LiPo charge at 0.8A showed improvement.
Discharge 10% higher at 5A , about 1200mah (still stopping at 3.0V)

So it still looks like I'm missing about 0.2v under 5A load average during the discharge.


----------



## jabe1 (Oct 6, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

Lux, quick question, (hope answer can be the same). How do you know when to re-charge? Dimming? With many of the high powered lights it can be hard to see when the lamp is "dim" to the point of needing a charge. Can a low voltage warning LED be easily incorporated into a light?
Sorry, more than one question.


----------



## mdocod (Oct 6, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

It has been my experience with the Emoli cells, driving just about any incan, that you will SEE a VERY sudden and dramatic "dimming" kick in all the sudden when the cells are at the end of their discharge. Like someone walked up to the dimmer on the wall and just started ramping it down, like the lights in the movie theater just before the projector kicks on. 

You will see the dimming on an incan, then just turn it off as soon as possible. These cells are safe and can handle an -occasional- over-discharge with minimal ill effect. I've found that they almost always spring back to ~2.5-3.5V after shut down from noticeable dimming, depending no how long I run it after the dimming starts. (I'd say you have about a 5-15 second window to prevent discharge below 2V under a load depending on the load in question). 

Personally, i'd suggest just trying to charge often rather than drain em all the way down.


----------



## kuprith (Oct 6, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

thanks for the tips guys i'll charge it at 3.7Volts as suggested.


----------



## jabe1 (Oct 6, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

mdocod... Thanks, I'm not familiar enough with the e-moli cells, and didn't want to ruin any. Now, what about my second Q? Has anyone figured out a low voltage indicator circuit?


----------



## modamag (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

I've been using the Sony Konion V for quite some time now. I've found that you don't really need to ballance them if you can live with 0.1V difference.

The thing is, don't take them below 2.7V. It significantly reduce the life of your cell. I set my LVC @ 2.9V on my 20S pack, just to be on the safe side

You can get in expensive protection circuit from batteryspace which does the job pretty well. Now for those hot rodders & crazy LED modder the current crop of LVC will not fit in our lights. We can only pray for the driver guys to put it in (easy enough).


----------



## LuxLuthor (Dec 15, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

I just posted updated graphs in post #1 to *now include **AW's new safe IMR-18650 LiMn* that he is selling here. I used a new clamp low resistance setup, and although my readings are a bit lower than AW's in next post, it's clear that AW's cells are top quality Lithium Manganese cells which also have the smaller V+ terminal for better contact in most settings.


----------



## mdocod (Dec 15, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

I'm actually glad to see that the "real "charts compare well... Based on looking at those new AW discharge characteristics, i think it's safe so say that anything I have tested with Emoli cells that doesn't insta-flash, will probably work fine on the AW cells, but the AW cells will give that extra ~20% runtime. Not bad at all! And his price is quite reasonable when you consider all the work required to tear apart a tool pack. 

Eric


----------



## wquiles (Dec 15, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

Nice!

It is great to see advancements in batteries - we crazy flashaholics need all of the help we can get :devil:

Will


----------



## cy (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

this is turning out to be a real informative thread.... CPF has evolved into a monster in terms of size.... it's all but impossible for me to keep track of all the new developments.


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (May 5, 2009)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout @ 5, 10, 15 Amps*

Great post!! (as usual)...


----------



## rizky_p (May 6, 2009)

Nice, Finally an independent test for AW's IMR. Thanks Lux.


what is the safe lowest voltage for Lifepo4 and LiMn?


----------



## LuxLuthor (May 6, 2009)

I don't like to run my Lithium Cobalt or Manganese below 3.0V, although a sudden spike below that is not a big deal, compared to a low amp slow draw that would continue running it down for longer and more damage.

The A123 LiFePO4 has a comparable bottom end of about 2.5V below which damage occurs also in proportion to the severity and duration kept below that threshold.


----------



## Mik (Feb 18, 2010)

I know that this is a pretty old thread, but I just wanted to add a little something. Today, I bought and opened a 5 cell 18v Ridgid Li-Ion pack expecting to get some Emoli cells. Inside of mine are some light purple wrapped China cells. I haven't run any tests on them yet, but as of now I am dissapointed. $60 for some China crap and I still have no Emoli. So, if you are in search of the Emoli cells, beware, you might not get them in Ridgid packs any longer.


----------



## 186kmps (Feb 19, 2010)

Wow! Thank you so much for the time you guys spend doing all your testing. You all blow me away! I really am thankful for any info on battery tech I can get.:thumbsup:


----------



## Font size (Aug 30, 2012)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*




LuxLuthor said:


> just amazed that the "big guys" can be outperformed.


Lux from Connecticut assumes the big guys who work for shareholders, have the same priorities.


----------



## bshanahan14rulz (Aug 31, 2012)

*Re: Lithium 18650 Safe Chemistry Performance Shootout*

I'm from Tennessee, and around here we have this saying, "Assuming makes an '***' out of 'u' and 'Ming'." However, I don't think LuxLuthor's real name is Ming, so I think he's safe there.


----------



## ozdavo (Apr 4, 2013)

Dragging a tread from the past, which is a great resource:
Is there any chance of an update of 10A & 15A testing of the current crop of High capacity 18650's? (or help in finding what calls can handle 15A discharge rate?)


----------

