# Coffee: drip vs percolate vs...



## ElectronGuru (Jul 17, 2009)

Here's a subject right at home in the Cafe, coffee making. 

Drip makers send hot water through a paper filter holding coffee grounds into a separate pitcher (carafe). Once through, the finished coffee sits in the carafe (metal or glass), which itself is sitting on a hot plate. 

Percolators send hot water, through a metal basket holding coffee grounds. Once through, it reenters the heated lift system and again travels through the metal basket and again through the coffee grounds, increasing the saturation with each trip. When done cycling, the finished coffee sits in the same (metal) chamber used to heat the original water.

What do you prefer and why?


----------



## Norm (Jul 17, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*

Can I raise a third alternative? I like to drink a short black coffee and use a Philips Senseo machine but instead of buying coffee pads (a round coffee bag) I use a thing called a coffee duck which allows my to use ordinary ground coffee. Makes a great short espresso 
Coffee duck from member Coop :wave: thanks Coop.


----------



## StarHalo (Jul 17, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*

Cold brewing. It takes preparation and a lot of coffee, but this is the one method that produces coffee that comes closest to tasting the same way it smells, with zero acidity. Fortunately it's also the simplest, as it doesn't require a coffeemaker at all:

- Add one cup of ground coffee (preferably coarse/auto-drip, not fine/espresso) into a container of 4.5 cups of water, stir.

- Close the container and leave it 12 hours/overnight (usually done in the refrigerator, but this is optional).

- Strain through a coffee filter into another container (just remove the filter holder from your coffeemaker with a filter in it, and pour through).

- Serve. Microwave in-cup for hot, or pour over ice for cold.

This method makes cheaper coffee taste like fresh-roast, and quality coffee taste better than you've ever had it from a coffeemaker. It's also ideal for drink recipes that call for brewed coffee, as it bumps up the quality of the finished product notably.


----------



## mudman cj (Jul 17, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*

Up front disclaimer - I am admittedly a coffee snob. 

Friends don't let friends percolate coffee. This over-extracts undesirable compounds from the coffee that increase the bitterness of the drink. :green:
Drip is definitely preferable. That said, I do not drink either. I go for espresso at home or what they call stovetop espresso at work. 

A stovetop espresso maker brews under low pressure and makes a drink almost as rich as espresso, but it can be done with much cheaper equipment and the grind does not have to be as precise as with true espresso. To anyone looking into a stovetop espresso pot, I only recommend buying one in stainless steel. The aluminum ones lend an undesirable flavor to the coffee.

I could keep blabbing on about coffee for a very long time, but your question does not warrant it at this time.


----------



## Norm (Jul 17, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



mudman cj said:


> The aluminium ones lend an undesirable flavor to the coffee.


And corrode over time I've had a few of the aluminium ones but haven't tried a stainless steel one yet. 
When we are away in our caravan I use a French press and always enjoy the coffee it produces.




​


----------



## gswitter (Jul 17, 2009)

I use a drip machine (Technivorm) with a carafe that's insulated instead of heated. The combination of that machine, filtered water, good beans and a burr grinder produces our best home-brewing results to date. We probably tried a half dozen combos prior to this one - French presses, cold brewing, all-in-one grider/brewers, etc - and this current combo is worlds better than any of the previous.

For single cups, the Aeropress does a pretty decent job as well.


----------



## saabgoblin (Jul 17, 2009)

I agree with the previous statements on the percolating method and should you choose to go for the drip method, procure one of the permanent gold plated (I think that they are gold plated) reusable filters. Paper filters absorb the essential oils from the coffee removing a considerable amount of flavor and complexity.

Personally, I use a french press as well and I am quite happy with the results. I have used a Krups espresso maker and it was okay but it never produced enough of the dense creme top that is characteristic of a great espresso but I would just add hot water to make an Americano coffee, espresso and hot water mixed.


----------



## mudman cj (Jul 17, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



Norm said:


> And corrode over time I've had a few of the aluminium ones but haven't tried a stainless steel one yet.
> When we are away in our caravan I use a French press and always enjoy the coffee it produces.



I love my stainless one for at work as well as for when we go on trips. It has a removable insert that allows you to choose between about 5 oz. and 10 oz. Similar to flashlight purchasing, I only wish I had bought my stainless steel one first instead of the 6 assorted aluminum ones corroding away in my basement. 

I'll add that I also brew by drip, french press, vacuum pot (stainless steel), ibrik(brass), and two espresso machines(one heavily modified). I use a Mazzer Major (modified for home use) grinder at home and a Zassenhaus at work.


----------



## Nitroz (Jul 17, 2009)

Nothing like a perfectly pulled shot from my Nuova Simonelli at my ice cream shop.

I love when fresh roasted beans show up the next day after roasting, the smell is intoxicating.


----------



## Nitroz (Jul 17, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



mudman cj said:


> I'll add that I also brew by drip, french press, vacuum pot (stainless steel), ibrik(brass), and two espresso machines(one heavily modified). I use a Mazzer Major (modified for home use) grinder at home and a Zassenhaus at work.




Oh boy! Coffee mods can be just as expensive as flashlights! Bottomless portafilter, scace device, and the list just goes on....


----------



## nitesky (Jul 17, 2009)

Coffee is where I draw the line. I will put up with my drip pot, at least for now. I try to keep it clean and use a mesh filter.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 17, 2009)

gswitter said:


> I use a drip machine (*Technivorm*) with a carafe that's insulated instead of heated. The combination of that machine, filtered water, good beans and a burr grinder produces our best home-brewing results to date. We probably tried a half dozen combos prior to this one - French presses, cold brewing, all-in-one grider/brewers, etc - and this current combo is worlds better than any of the previous.



Totally agree. On occasion with some coffees I will use the Bodum French Press. Never got into expresso. Use iRoast-2 to roast green beans from sweetmarias.com


----------



## DUQ (Jul 18, 2009)

For me; I'm using a french press with fresh ground beans. My wife does not drink coffee so there's no need for a large drip machine.


----------



## Fallingwater (Jul 18, 2009)

Here in Italy the national way of making coffee is with the moka. They say it's the best way of doing it, but if that's the truth then mokas hate me, because whenever I try to make some the end result is hopelessly disgusting. I don't mind, because I drink coffee rarely and only for utilitaristic reasons (to keep myself awake), but it'd be nice if I could do decent coffee for friends when they came to visit...


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 18, 2009)

_(Moderator note: ALL hotlinked pics removed IAW CPF Image Rules.)
_
I have been a flashaholic for maybe 10 years, but I've been a coffeeholic for well over 25 years. 

I generally only drink one cup a day, but it's coffee my way. I started roasting my own green coffee beans back in 1976.

My current roaster stable:



Retired, but still usable:


Burned out in the lline of duty:



In my experience, the best regular cup of coffee can only be made one way. One cup at a time. The best coffee starts with the best green beans, freshly roasted. The beans must rest for 12-36 hours after roasting, depending upon the variety, and a few other environmental factors.

A good burr grinder should be used to grind those beans. 



A simple single cup filter cone can be used as the brewing vehicle, but I've had even better luck with AeroPress (see below) for making the perfect cup of coffee.


Filter cone:


----------



## Manzerick (Jul 18, 2009)

After reading this.. I'm off to Dunkin Donuts for a Larger Turbo Ice with Milk and 3 Splenda


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 18, 2009)

Manzerick said:


> After reading this.. I'm off to Dunkin Donuts for a Larger Turbo Ice with Milk and 3 Splenda



LOL! :twothumbs


----------



## Nitroz (Jul 18, 2009)

Manzerick said:


> After reading this.. I'm off to Dunkin Donuts for a Larger Turbo Ice with Milk and 3 Splenda



Now that's funny!:hahaha:


----------



## mudman cj (Jul 18, 2009)

Fallingwater said:


> Here in Italy the national way of making coffee is with the moka. They say it's the best way of doing it, but if that's the truth then mokas hate me, because whenever I try to make some the end result is hopelessly disgusting. I don't mind, because I drink coffee rarely and only for utilitaristic reasons (to keep myself awake), but it'd be nice if I could do decent coffee for friends when they came to visit...



This is what I was calling the stovetop espresso maker. After making literally thousands of pots this way I can tell you that it takes some practice to make good coffee with one. Here are some tips.
I suggest only using beans that have been roasted to a medium/dark level, often called a Vienna roast or a full city roast. If you try to make moka pot coffee with a light roast you will have poor results. You need to set the grind a bit finer than typical drip but coarser than espresso grind. 
Fill the basket with coffee, tamping it down lightly as you fill, and add a bit more that makes a mound over the top and lightly tamp that down too. The right amount of grounds is one of the most important things, and the last tamping step tells you if you have not added enough or have added too much. 
Then, use just below medium heat on a stove to heat it gradually - I use a setting of about 40% of maximum heat. It should take about 15 minutes give or take depending on the size of the moka pot for the coffee to brew. If you are using an aluminum moka pot then be careful not to leave it on the heat too long or it will boil. Once the coffee in the top of the moka pot boils it is ruined - just dump it out and don't even bother tasting it - trust me.


----------



## StarHalo (Jul 18, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> My current roaster stable:



In all the years I've been impressed by and enjoyed "Show Your Flashlight Collection" threads, I never thought about a "Show Your Coffee/Espresso Hardware" thread..


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 18, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> In all the years I've been impressed by and enjoyed "Show Your Flashlight Collection" threads, I never thought about a "Show Your Coffee/Espresso Hardware" thread..



LOL! The biggest problem I'm having with this thread is figuring out how to photograph some "beam shots" of the coffee roasters. I guess it will have to be in the IR spectrum!


----------



## DM51 (Jul 18, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> ...how to photograph some "beam shots" of the coffee roasters


... or maybe BEAN shots, lol


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 18, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> _(Moderator note: Hotlinked pics removed IAW CPF Image Rules.)
> _
> I have been a flashaholic for maybe 10 years, but I've been a coffeeholic for well over 25 years.
> 
> ...



Holy Moly, now there is a man who is very serious about his coffee. I love seeing all your gear. I use that same burr grinder, and on several people's recommendation here, I may try that Aero Press...but I've been hooked on Technivorm for years now. In part because it is hard to find a way to get the perfect brewing temp. A rolling boil in kettle is too hot. 

I usually like to rest my beans for at least 3 days, as I find they develop more complex flavors. Never more than 6 days unless traveling, when I bring my filter cone like you have, small Krups blade grinder, and an electric kettle.

What is that the Behmor 1600 roaster you show? I don't see it listed at www.sweetmarias.com, but do see it at coffeegeek.com What would you say are its pro's and con's relative to the iRoast2 ? 

Edit: Oh here it is at sweetmarias. That's not a bad price for a quality roaster. Did you find like mentioned in SM's review that it has a hard time getting darker roasts--I like #13 or slightly darker for many beans? Did you get the extra smaller drum?


----------



## bullfrog (Jul 18, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



Norm said:


> And corrode over time I've had a few of the aluminium ones but haven't tried a stainless steel one yet.
> When we are away in our caravan I use a French press and always enjoy the coffee it produces.
> 
> 
> ...



I don't roast my own beans (*kwkarth* that is just AWESOME!!!) but I grind the beans per cup and still prefer to use my bodom french press - I can get the coffee just the way I like it and I even have a travel lexan press that comes with me.

I've probably been through about 10 different machines over the years and I still favor my press for its ease of use and customization of my cup  

I used to drink easily over 7 or 8 cups a day but got tired of the headaches if I didnt have my coffee - about a year ago I managed to ween my body down to 1 big mug in the morning and a big mug at night...


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 18, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



bullfrog said:


> I used to drink easily over 7 or 8 cups a day but got tired of the headaches if I didnt have my coffee - about a year ago I managed to ween my body down to 1 big mug in the morning and a big mug at night...



Ya know what is the hardest thing to find....a large 20oz mug *that has a lip to prevent dribbling down the side.* I finally found a brand made by North Creek Cabin Company, and one listing is here. The dolphin & sailfish are truly beautiful mugs.


----------



## StarHalo (Jul 18, 2009)

Oh come on, we're flashaholics, get with the Ti; my mug:


----------



## BVH (Jul 18, 2009)

Doesn't the conductivity of the metal more easily burn your lips?


----------



## StarHalo (Jul 18, 2009)

BVH said:


> Doesn't the conductivity of the metal more easily burn your lips?



Nah, the cup remains relatively cool wherever the coffee isn't, but you definitely can't hold the cup without the handle, and no microwaving..

They make a double-wall model for those concerned about insulation (I drink fast enough that it's not an issue), but it doesn't feature the pretty anodizing (also available in purple and light blue), plus it's heavier - going just by weight, my mug feels like it's made of paper..


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 18, 2009)

I'll stick with ceramics, thank you.


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 19, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Holy Moly, now there is a man who is very serious about his coffee. I love seeing all your gear. I use that same burr grinder, and on several people's recommendation here, I may try that Aero Press...but I've been hooked on Technivorm for years now. In part because it is hard to find a way to get the perfect brewing temp. A rolling boil in kettle is too hot.
> 
> I usually like to rest my beans for at least 3 days, as I find they develop more complex flavors. Never more than 6 days unless traveling, when I bring my filter cone like you have, small Krups blade grinder, and an electric kettle.
> 
> ...



The Behmor is a table top (about the size of a toaster oven) coffee bean roaster. As Tom says, theoretically, it's capable of roasting one full pound of beans at a time, but in practice it won't take that many beans past 1st crack, and some not even that far with a full pound load. 

I ruined about 3 lbs of beans before I gave up trying to do a full pound at a time.

I like most of my beans roasted to full city and the only way to push a roast that far in the Behmore, is to set it for a full pound roast and then only put in 12oz. or so. There are other ways to finesse it, but that's the most commonly used approach. I've had one for I think, going on two years now. Not perfect, but well built and very, very quiet. You really should have a good exhaust vent for the smoke, and a good shop vac is mandatory.

I bought mine from either SweetMarias or TheCoffeBeanCorral. I know they both carry it. Yes, I did buy the smaller mesh drum because I had a Maui Moka Peaberry that was way too small to roast in the standard mesh drum. I end up using the smaller mesh drum for most roasts.

I'll try to get around to taking a few pictures of my set up so you can see what I mean about exhaust fan set up.


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 19, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



LuxLuthor said:


> Ya know what is the hardest thing to find....a large 20oz mug *that has a lip to prevent dribbling down the side.* I finally found a brand made by North Creek Cabin Company, and one listing is here. The dolphin & sailfish are truly beautiful mugs.



Years ago, I bought a couple mugs from Starbucks that work pretty well. The top half of them is white ceramic and the bottom half has a stainless steel outer liner with grippy foam bottom. The top has a fitted lid to minimize heat loss and splashes. I'll post a pic when I take it.


----------



## clintb (Jul 19, 2009)

I waffle back and forth between drinking coffee and not, with Yerba Mate being in the "not" phases.

When I was really into the coffee, I had:
LaCimbali Jr. grinder
Krups Moka Brew
Presto Scandanavian w/ Swiss gold basket (brews at the correct temp, like the Technivorm)

Freshly brewed coffee always came off and into a Zojirushi Tuff Sports vacuum bottle. My favorite mug for drinking is the Contigo double wall stainless tumbler.

In one of my "off" phases, I stupidly gave away the Presto to a coworker, but at least I still have the KMB and Capresso Infinity burr grinder (sold the Cimbali).


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 19, 2009)

I thought it was bunk about brewing at the ideal temp, and almost always brought my spring water to a kettle's whistling boil and poured it either into Bodum french press or filter cones. Then I started using the Technivorm and was shocked at the different quality taste. 

I actually did several side by side comparisons with a group of 5 coffee afficionado friends, with three different beans--each from same roast times. Everyone found the same improvement with the Technivorm vs. boiling water into Melitta or Swiss gold cones.


----------



## ElectronGuru (Jul 20, 2009)

I love how we put so much thought into everything!


----------



## cernobila (Jul 20, 2009)

Wow, quite a bit of info here......any chance that there could be a "Poll" on who uses what "system" to make their favourite coffee, such as the drip, percolating, plunger/French, moca etc.....any chance?


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 20, 2009)

cernobila said:


> Wow, quite a bit of info here......any chance that there could be a "Poll" on who uses what "system" to make their favourite coffee, such as the drip, percolating, plunger/French, moca etc.....any chance?



A poll would be fun to design, but there are as many variations on these themes as there are coffee drinkers. Ken Davids and others have written some good books on the subject and websites like "sweetmarias.com" and "coffeegeek.com" have treasure troves of good information on the subjects of coffee varieties, growing, harvesting, processing, blending, roasting, storage, brewing, serving, etc.

Coffee is one of the most complex consumables on the planet. I read in one of Ken Davids' books that there are over 700 components within a roasted coffee bean that contribute to the flavor profile of a the bean.

In a short primer written by Ernesto Illy, published in Scientific American in 2002, Illy states that "The aroma of green coffee contains some 250 different volatile molecular species, whereas roasted coffee gives rise to more than 800." When one roasts one's own coffee, one has so much more control over the taste of the finished product. It is a very compelling hobby, pastime, obsession, or profession, depending upon how far one wants to pursue it. Most experts agree that the fullness of those complexities are still not fully understood even today.

It would be a real challenge to distill all of the variables into tabular form.

Happy illumination!


----------



## mudman cj (Jul 20, 2009)

*Poll: What are your favorite coffee brewing methods?*

There certainly are many ways to enjoy coffee, but there are some methods that gain favor over others as individuals are exposed to different drinks or as their tastes change. So, what methods are your favorite for brewing coffee?

*You can vote for more than one choice. Why don't we each try to select our 3 favorites.

*Edit: I started the poll in a separate thread because I had no way to edit this thread, but thanks to Empath for combining them.


----------



## Hitthespot (Jul 20, 2009)

*Re: Poll: What are your favorite coffee brewing methods?*

I find that a press will usually give great coffe flavor without the bitterness. It also seems more forgiving to me.

Bill


----------



## Empath (Jul 20, 2009)

*Re: Poll: What are your favorite coffee brewing methods?*

The newly started thread on the same subject as this has been merged, including the new poll started with the new thread.

It's interesting to note that the topic (question) addressed by the OP has only been addressed by one responding reply. It quickly became a discussion of everything about coffee making except the discussion of drip vs percolation.

As is usually the case, it will likely become, predominately, a discussion of coffee roasting, as does nearly all forum discussions of coffee.


----------



## Nitroz (Jul 20, 2009)

Ooops. Duplicate post.


----------



## Nitroz (Jul 20, 2009)

I will get some pictures of the Nuova Simonelli tommorow when I am at the shop.

I would like to see what others are using. Post some pics.

To the OP, great thread!:thumbsup:


----------



## Flying Turtle (Jul 20, 2009)

I like using the French Press and grinding my beans. Not a coffee snob, by any means. I'll still down a cup or two of instant most any day.

Geoff


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 20, 2009)

You forgot to include an "other" category since my favorite brewing method is not listed in your poll.

My preferred method is to use the Aeropress, one cup at a time.

3 scoops of beans, ground to fine drip, water 10 seconds off boil. Add water to grounds and stir for 10 seconds, then press water and grounds mixture into cup through lab grade filter paper. Fill remaining mug space with hot water to fill mug.


----------



## ElectronGuru (Jul 20, 2009)

*Re: Poll: What are your favorite coffee brewing methods?*



Empath said:


> It's interesting to note that the topic (question) addressed by the OP has only been addressed by one responding reply.



Actually, I started with a title of "Coffee: drip vs percolate" and upon seeing how quickly the scope needed to expand, I changed it to "Coffee: drip vs percolate vs...". Having moved from drip to percolation and being very much happier, I was seeking other experiences. But I didn't want to bias the answers. BTW, this is the wonderful percolator in question:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00006IV0Q/?tag=cpf0b6-20​
But yes, lets please keep roasting tips under low heat... :nana:


----------



## gswitter (Jul 20, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> My preferred method is to use the Aeropress, one cup at a time.
> 
> 3 scoops of beans, ground to fine drip, water 10 seconds off boil. Add water to grounds and stir for 10 seconds, then press water and grounds mixture into cup through lab grade filter paper. Fill remaining mug space with hot water to fill mug.


I love the Aeropress, but I can never justify the amount of beans required to make a single cup based on their directions. I've had pretty good results from 1/2 or 1/3 the beans for the same amount of water and stirring for 2-3 times as long.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 21, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> You forgot to include an "other" category since my favorite brewing method is not listed in your poll.
> 
> My preferred method is to use the Aeropress, one cup at a time.
> 
> 3 scoops of beans, ground to fine drip, water 10 seconds off boil. Add water to grounds and stir for 10 seconds, then press water and grounds mixture into cup through lab grade filter paper. Fill remaining mug space with hot water to fill mug.



Can you say a bit more about your technique of obtaining the right water temp? I understand 10 seconds, but are you using a clear glass kettle, where you can see when the water is just starting a few bubbles vs. a full "rolling" boil which did not give me the result of the Technivorm brewing temp. I know water boils at 212°F which I assume would be associated with a "rolling/full" boil whistling kettle. 

Boyd's has this Brewing Guide description on their site:



> *Temperature*
> 
> A second requirement of water for good coffee brewing is the water temperature as it passes over the coffee grounds. *Ideal brewing temperature is 200°F, plus or minus 5°F (at sea level). Subtract 2°F for every 1,000 feet of elevation. *Too low a temperature causes flavor compounds not to dissolve resulting in an under extracted weak beverage. Too high a temperature will cause flavor changes resulting in an over-extracted bitter and astringent beverage. By maintaining the proper temperature throughout the brew cycle, optimum extraction can be attained.



Gourmet Coffee Shop has this guide....but there is just starting to bubble, and a full boil that is not distinguished.



> When brewing your coffee you should always ensure that the temperature is between 195 F and 205 F. This is vital, as the correct temperature is needed in order to extract the best flavors from ground coffee.
> 
> If you are not using a coffee maker it can be hard to judge the correct temperature. The easy way to do this is to bring your water just to the boil and then allow it to stand for a minute before brewing. If you are using an electric drip coffeemaker you should make sure the model you choose has at least 1200 watts and at the correct temperature it should take approximately six minutes to make a ten cup pot. An important point to remember is never to boil coffee, this ruins the flavor.


----------



## brucec (Jul 21, 2009)

I have one of those aluminum Moka pots, but don't use it anymore because I don't like the taste of aluminum. Thanks for all the info on the stainless versions. In the meantime, I've been using a French press. After reading all of these posts, I think I'll give the Aeropress a try.

While I certainly appreciate a properly brewed cup of coffee or espresso, when it comes down to it, I'll drink practically anything. I might be drinking luke warm stale hotel conference room coffee and thinking, "wow, this coffee is unbelievably bad", but it's going down the hatch anyway. Heck, I'll even eat coffee beans if given no other options...


----------



## cernobila (Jul 21, 2009)

First, thank you for the poll......We use the French press if we make real coffee but mostly due to being lazy, I drink the instant stuff when on my own and have things to do......I remember when I was young, my parents used no equipment at all, (except for the hand grinder to grind the coffee beans to the right texture) the skill of good coffee was all in the beans and how they were treated from start to finish, just as mentioned here. The ground coffee was placed in the cup and the water went in, left alone for a specific time and then ready to drink. Quite often the cup was turned over on the plate and the coffee "sludge" left behind was "read" by fortune tellers...........I have to drink more good real coffee and lower the consumption of the instant stuff.


----------



## mudman cj (Jul 21, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> You forgot to include an "other" category since my favorite brewing method is not listed in your poll.


I created the poll but due to the merging of the threads I am now unable to edit it. Perhaps a moderator can add an "other" category.


----------



## Pellidon (Jul 21, 2009)

I have a Chemex drip pot and a Bodum version of the same. Looks like a mad scientist chemical beaker. Those are my faves. Then I have a Keruig K-cup single serve machine. Have a Senseo Pod machine but since Target stopped selling my fave pod I haven't found a suitable replacement. I like the moka pots as well and have had pretty good luck with them. 

I did a beta test on a wiki site last year and made this page. It has some home coffee geek making equipment.


----------



## bullfrog (Jul 21, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



LuxLuthor said:


> Ya know what is the hardest thing to find....a large 20oz mug *that has a lip to prevent dribbling down the side.* I finally found a brand made by North Creek Cabin Company, and one listing is here. The dolphin & sailfish are truly beautiful mugs.




Hi Lux, I totally agree! It is really hard to find a good BIG mug - I've been using the same couple of oversized University of Wisconsin mugs that we've had for years (wife's alma mater) - they've been the best and biggest I could find. I love a good mug that works your forearms while you drink  

Thanks for that link - GREAT site. Being a northeastern fly fisherman I'm a bit biased towards my trout  My wife has been alerted and the site added to the "gift list!" Really digging the rainbow trout :twothumbs

I guess we sorta cheat counting my cups considering my mug holds maybe three :tinfoil:


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 21, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Can you say a bit more about your technique of obtaining the right water temp? I understand 10 seconds, but are you using a clear glass kettle, where you can see when the water is just starting a few bubbles vs. a full "rolling" boil which did not give me the result of the Technivorm brewing temp. I know water boils at 212°F which I assume would be associated with a "rolling/full" boil whistling kettle.
> 
> Boyd's has this Brewing Guide description on their site:
> 
> ...



Sure Lux,
The way I produce hot water is using an electric hot water kettle. I used a Braun for years until it started to fall apart. About a year ago I bought an Oster stainless electric hot water kettle that has served fairly well, but it is not the holy grail. (more about that later) 

The Oster heats the water until it reaches a rolling boil then throttles down to a hot water hold setting at 190F.

Since 212 is too hot and 190 is too cold, somewhere in between is just right. Brewing coffee with too hot a water temperature will yield the characteristic rancidy over extracted flavor, while using too cool of a water temperature will yeild too thin tasting a brew, lacking the full bodied flavor that good coffee is capable of producing. I could monitor the temperature with a probe, but c'mmon, we don't want to go overboard do we? 

Subjectively, I experimented with waiting for different amounts of time, and came upon what works best for me. After the water has come to a boil, the sound of the boiling eventually subsides. 10 seconds after complete silence is when I begin my pour. I leave the 190F warmer on to slow the further rate of cooling until I'm done with making my cup of coffee.

BTW, I do use filtered water. Good water, is, as many say, an essential component of good coffee.

My next hot water kettle will be the Breville 820 which lets one choose the exact temperature. Check the link below. On the site, they have a short demo video:

http://www.williams-sonoma.com/prod...g&cm_cat=NexTag&cm_pla=default&cm_ite=default

The Breville Variable Temperature Water Kettle is a tea lover's dream come true for quickly and conveniently heating water to specific temperatures for precision brewing tea. This 1500-watt electric kettle has 5 pre-set brewing temperatures, for Green Tea (175° F), White Tea (185° F), Oolong Tea (195° F), French Press (200° F) and black tea and boiling (212° F). It features a stylish brushed stainless steel multi-directional base and jug, left and right handed water level indicators with blue backlighting, can hold temperatures up to 20 minutes and a removable scale filter. The hard part is figuring out what to actually drink. 1.8 Liter 
Fast boil 1500 watt concealed element 
Allows for precision tea and coffee brewing to elicit the perfect drinking profile 
Water level indicators are located on both sides of the kettle for the left and right handed viewing 
Blue backlight behind water window 
Brushed stainless steel base and jug 
Multi-directional base 
Removable Scale Filter


Cheers!


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 21, 2009)

Someone mentioned in an earlier post that they couldn't bring themselves to use an aeropress because it required so much coffee per cup...

I agree to a point. (more about this later...)

I use 60-90ml (2 to 3 scoops) of whole beans per 16 oz mug.
The quantity of coffee varies depending upon the particular bean and my mood.

I like my coffee black and really strong. I only drink one cup a day 9 out of 10 days. Many days I drink no coffee at all. 

If coffee were made to the strength that I prefer by a traditional method, it would probably peal paint, and certainly not taste very good. I hate bitter coffee.

The secret to obtaining paint blistering strength with no bitterness is as follows;


Use really good top notch freshly roasted (full city or less and less than a week out of the roaster) beans.
Use the right temperature water.
Make sure that the grounds are in contact with the water no longer than 1 minute total time before extraction.
So I add the ground coffee to the aeropress and place it on top of my coffee mug. I begin to add water. As I do, the grounds foam up considerably (this is a good thing contrary to what Boyd's website claims) and stop adding water when I have the chamber about 1/3 to 1/2 full. I stir the mixture with the supplied stirring paddle for about 10 seconds. (Actually, I just stir enough to make sure all of the grounds are fully hydrated) Then I continue to add water until the chamber is topped off. I dribble a bit more hot water in as the foam subsides for another few seconds.

I then insert the plunger and extract all of the coffee from the aeropress.

I rinse out the aeropress and put it away (takes about 30 seconds to soap and rinse every part.)

Turning back to my coffee mug, I add enough hot water to fill it up and I'm done. 

The extraction process produces maybe 4 to 5 ounces of highly concentrated coffee extract so adding over 10 ounces of water to that completes the process.

This produces for me, the sweet nectar of the gods. 

Here's how I rationalize it for myself;


The taste is so amazingly good, it doesn't matter how much coffee it takes
It's only 1 cup a day at most.
I roast my own coffee beans so the cost of the beans (as long as I don't factor in the cost of all the roasters I've bought) is minimal. I pay anywhere between 3 to 5 bux a pound for most of my coffees.
The wife doesn't like her coffee as strong as I and uses a single cup filter cone because she thinks the Aeropress is too much trouble. Besides that, she uses cream and sugar, so who cares what the coffee tasts like?
Qualifiers:


If I were making 10 cups for company, I would not use this method, for one or two guests, yah, ok.
For a room full of people I would use the electric vacuum pot that I have or buy a Technivorm.


----------



## da.gee (Jul 21, 2009)

I guess I'm a dripper. Too lazy or busy to roast my own beans although I thought long and hard about it. Still may someday. Scared I might really like it!

The combo pictured below with Trader Joe's French Roast ground fresh everyday does me fine. Several times at social gatherings people have remarked on how good the coffee tastes. It is most definitely better tasting than the run of the mill consumer brewers I had prior to the Technivorm. The Maestro is a burr grinder.

I include my favorite portable stainless cups in case anyone can point me to some good modern models. Both these were purchased probably a decade or more ago from Starbucks and I have never, in all these years, found any that work better. Believe me I have tried to find a good one. My mother-in-law has the same situation; a couple stainless cups from Starbucks she guards with her life that are a decade old.

You can have my stainless cup when you pry it from my cold, dead, coffee-stained hand!


----------



## Diesel_Bomber (Jul 21, 2009)

brucec said:


> While I certainly appreciate a properly brewed cup of coffee or espresso, when it comes down to it, I'll drink practically anything. I might be drinking luke warm stale hotel conference room coffee and thinking, "wow, this coffee is unbelievably bad", but it's going down the hatch anyway. Heck, I'll even eat coffee beans if given no other options...



This is funny, but I'm the same way. Wet? Contain caffeine? Okay sure I'll drink it. One of my best buddies will eat coffee grounds out of a coffee can with a spoon, just like cereal. I'm not that bad.

Once I had just finished working 14 hours in near 100 degree temps(I'm uncomfy in anything over ~75 or so, 100 nearly killed me) and was driving back to my house when I saw a sign saying "coffee 1/4 mile ahead, start slowing down now." Hehe, okay! Stopped in and bought the biggest iced mocha they had with as many extra shots as would fit in the cup. No whipped cream(why dillute coffee w/ whipped cream?). Strong enough to take my breath away with every sip and not the slightest bit bitter, undoubtedly the best coffee of my life. Fast forward to two months later, my wife and I are driving home after spending four days vacationing at our beach house. Absolutely no hardship whatsoever. This coffee shack is only a couple miles out of our way, so we stop in. Ordered exactly the same thing from exactly the same barrista. :sick2: Did *not* taste the same.

Lesson relearned: Hunger really is the best seasoning. 

To the OP's question, I prefer a french press. I would not feed percolator coffee to my dog, and I don't even have a dog. If you're not a snob (  :kiss: ) you can get decent coffee out of a cheap drip coffee pot by leaving it OFF and pouring your own near-boiling water into the filter basket, and only making a cup or two at a time. Whatever will drain through in less than 2.5 minutes or so. Or dump a good sized cup of coffee grounds straight into the pot of near-boiling water. Let it sit a minute or so, dump in a cup of cold water to get the grounds to settle, then pour the sludge off the top. Yum.

:buddies:


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 21, 2009)

Diesel_Bomber said:


> This is funny, but I'm the same way. Wet? Contain caffeine? Okay sure I'll drink it. One of my best buddies will eat coffee grounds out of a coffee can with a spoon, just like cereal. I'm not that bad.
> 
> Once I had just finished working 14 hours in near 100 degree temps(I'm uncomfy in anything over ~75 or so, 100 nearly killed me) and was driving back to my house when I saw a sign saying "coffee 1/4 mile ahead, start slowing down now." Hehe, okay! Stopped in and bought the biggest iced mocha they had with as many extra shots as would fit in the cup. No whipped cream(why dillute coffee w/ whipped cream?). Strong enough to take my breath away with every sip and not the slightest bit bitter, undoubtedly the best coffee of my life. Fast forward to two months later, my wife and I are driving home after spending four days vacationing at our beach house. Absolutely no hardship whatsoever. This coffee shack is only a couple miles out of our way, so we stop in. Ordered exactly the same thing from exactly the same barrista. :sick2: Did *not* taste the same.
> 
> ...



Maybe the second time you visited the shop, their batch of coffe was stale/bad?? :sick2:


Good advice! Yeah, those methods you mentioned will work pretty well!
I've been there and done that. I also totally agree with your statement about percolator coffee and we have three dogs. They'll generaly eat or drink anything, (well, two of them would) but I'm sure they would wonder if I was trying to poison them if I set percolated coffee in front of them.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 21, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> http://www.williams-sonoma.com/prod...g&cm_cat=NexTag&cm_pla=default&cm_ite=default
> 
> The Breville Variable Temperature Water Kettle is a tea lover's dream come true for quickly and conveniently heating water to specific temperatures for precision brewing tea. This 1500-watt electric kettle has 5 pre-set brewing temperatures



LOL! Oh you just happened to have known about something so perfect like this, didn't you! There goes $150 as I just ordered it. Although I love my Technivorm, I also want the option of having the perfect brewing temp options like this. Seriously, thanks!


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 21, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> LOL! Oh you just happened to have known about something so perfect like this, didn't you! There goes $150 as I just ordered it. Although I love my Technivorm, I also want the option of having the perfect brewing temp options like this. Seriously, thanks!



Well, you know what they say...

"Welcome to CandlepowerForums, sorry about your wallet."

I'm going to try and make it over to Williams Sonoma tomorrow to pick one up.


----------



## kramer5150 (Jul 21, 2009)

Coffee noob and I prefer a french press. Its so simple and easy and to my unrefined taste it tastes good.


----------



## Nitroz (Jul 21, 2009)

Here is the machine that the Wife and I use at our ice cream shop.


----------



## Hitthespot (Jul 22, 2009)

*Re: Poll: What are your favorite coffee brewing methods?*



ElectronGuru said:


> I was seeking other experiences. But I didn't want to bias the answers. BTW, this is the wonderful percolator in question:
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00006IV0Q/?tag=cpf0b6-20​But yes, lets please keep roasting tips under low heat... :nana:


 
The problems with percolators in my opinion, ( and take this with a grain of salt please) is that while making the coffee it continuously recycles the water through the coffee grounds. This usually makes a strong / bitter cup of coffee. Plus is takes longer. I think that is why not many voted for it. At a minimum I would consider a drip machine. I have been quite fond of Bunn's machines.

Bill


----------



## Joe Talmadge (Jul 22, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



StarHalo said:


> Cold brewing. It takes preparation and a lot of coffee, but this is the one method that produces coffee that comes closest to tasting the same way it smells, with zero acidity.
> 
> ... snip ...
> 
> This method makes cheaper coffee taste like fresh-roast, and quality coffee taste better than you've ever had it from a coffeemaker. It's also ideal for drink recipes that call for brewed coffee, as it bumps up the quality of the finished product notably.



Thanks for this post. You're the only one who mentioned cold brewing, unless I missed a post, and I think it's interesting. In the end, having your coffee taste exactly as it smells when freshly ground is the holy grail. As others have pointed out, if you don't brew at a high enough temperature, not all of the flavor components will be extracted -- but that holds true only for short-contact (hot water) methods. I often cold-brew high quality green tea overnight, and I think most of the flavor components are extracted. And for absolute certain, for iced tea, cold-brewed tastes better than hot brewed. At some point I'm going to try your method for coffee and see how it works out. My only reservation is re-heating the microwave -- the microwave seems to deaden too many flavor components, but I'll give it a shot. Have you tried slow warming in a pot?


----------



## StarHalo (Jul 22, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



Joe Talmadge said:


> My only reservation is re-heating the microwave -- the microwave seems to deaden too many flavor components, but I'll give it a shot. Have you tried slow warming in a pot?



How you reheat the coffee is 100% open to creative interpretation, I only mentioned microwave since it comes closest to the speed of the usual brewing methods. But I'd wager slow warming with a thermometer on the stove probably would be the ideal way to do it..

Cold brewing seems to be sort of the "cult movie" of brewing methods; only a few people know about it, but once they find it, it becomes their one and only way of making coffee. It doesn't seem reasonable that grounds and water just left in a container would do anything, but once you taste the results, all the complex coffee machines sure seem like overkill..


----------



## ElectronGuru (Jul 22, 2009)

Percolators were all the rage before restaurants (about 20 years back) rolled out drip systems, then drip systems were all the rage. Since then percolators have been relegated to truck stops and church socials. So I'm going to bring up one last question before going off to the anti-gourmet room. For those of you who have actually tried coffee from a percolator:

Was it in the last ten years and was it from equipment with a capacity of less than 15 cups, using light roast coffee?​


----------



## gswitter (Jul 22, 2009)

I messed with cold brewing a little a few years back, but wasn't wild about the results. Our particular brewer produced a heavily-concentrated solution that was mixed with water (50/50 or 33/67 - can't remember) before drinking. It was generally OK if we added boiling water, but the result were often not warm enough for us. Microwaving to warm it up did not produce good results. And using our cold brewer only made sense if we brewed large batches (~30-40 cups at once, as I recall). But, there was a noticeable decline in taste after the first couple days.


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 22, 2009)

I experimented with cold brewing back in the '70's and ended up not being overly impressed, particularly when using freshly roasted coffee. It wasn't bad, don't get me wrong, but it was way too inconvenient and took way too much time for this impatient soul.  As gswitter mentioned above, the quality of the resultant "brew" degrades quickly over a shart amount of time. I would consider this method for iced coffee perhaps, but I find properly brewed using the Aeropress to produce a product more true to the aroma of freshly ground coffee.


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 22, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> LOL! Oh you just happened to have known about something so perfect like this, didn't you! There goes $150 as I just ordered it. Although I love my Technivorm, I also want the option of having the perfect brewing temp options like this. Seriously, thanks!


The Breville has landed. Now we have to start comparing notes about the Breville. Just getting ready to brew my first cuppa jo.


----------



## Nitroz (Jul 22, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



StarHalo said:


> Cold brewing seems to be sort of the "cult movie" of brewing methods; only a few people know about it, but once they find it, it becomes their one and only way of making coffee. It doesn't seem reasonable that grounds and water just left in a container would do anything, but once you taste the results, all the complex coffee machines sure seem like overkill..



I use a toddy with 1 pound of coffee to make cold brewed coffee for use in our iced coffees. It's really good stuff!


----------



## chimo (Jul 22, 2009)

I just picked up an Aeropress today. I tried a 2-scoop cup for my wife and a 3-scoop cup for me. It wasn't bad at all - I had even used some beans I ground for the French Press this morning. I am eager to try a fine grind. 



kwkarth said:


> You forgot to include an "other" category since my favorite brewing method is not listed in your poll.
> 
> My preferred method is to use the Aeropress, one cup at a time.
> 
> 3 scoops of beans, ground to fine drip, water 10 seconds off boil. Add water to grounds and stir for 10 seconds, then press water and grounds mixture into cup through lab grade filter paper. Fill remaining mug space with hot water to fill mug.


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 22, 2009)

chimo said:


> I just picked up an Aeropress today. I tried a 2-scoop cup for my wife and a 3-scoop cup for me. It wasn't bad at all - I had even used some beans I ground for the French Press this morning. I am eager to try a fine grind.


Congrats!!

Keep in mind that the scoop that comes with the Aeropress is bigger than a standard 30ml scoop. As a matter of fact, I just measured it and it measures 45ml. Adjust accordingly. 
Cheers!


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 22, 2009)

I took a couple of pictures of the Behmor and the Breville kettle today.

Behmore all fired up and the door open.






Door closed, all fired up.





Here you can see a little of the exhaust plumbing.





Here's the Breville


----------



## chimo (Jul 22, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Congrats!!
> 
> Keep in mind that the scoop that comes with the Aeropress is bigger than a standard 30ml scoop. As a matter of fact, I just measured it and it measures 45ml. Adjust accordingly.
> Cheers!



I noticed the huge scoop. I tried it again at supper with a new grind (between an espresso and a drip). I noticed the flavor changed a bit, but it was still smooth. I like the immediate and simple clean-up of the Aeropress.

The store where I purchased the Aeropress had the new Breville kettle as well for around $95 Cdn ($105 with an additional 10% discount). I was tempted, but we had purchased last year's model just a few months ago. 

I have been tempted to start roasting my own beans but I have not made the hurdle yet. Too many irons in the fire - perhaps when I retire. 

BTW, that's one slick looking roaster you have there. Definitely more than one step up from a popcorn popper!


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks Chimo,
I'm sure you will enjoy the Aeropress for years to come. There is lots of opportunity to experiment with different grinds, different water temperatures, different amounts of stirring, and then there's finding just the right variety of coffee... Have fun!

The Behmore roaster is well built and should last a long time. I've had it for a year now and it still looks and operates like it was brand new. The Fresh Roast 8 is a great roaster to start out with. It's inexpensive, and very quiet for a hot air roaster, so you can hear as well as see the coffee roasting...Makes is easy to see, hear, and smell where the beans are in the roast cycle.

My attempts at roasting in the 70's were fry pan and then cookie sheet in the oven, neither method was very successful. In the 90's I started using an old hot air popcorm popper I had and that worked fabulously well, but it was messy, smoky and noisy. One thing led to another, and then came the Behmor. 

That's a great price you found on the Breville. Here it goes for 150us and that's it. It's ok, I like it and all, and it will be fun to "play" with, but it's past the point of diminishing returns. We'll see how well it holds up. Looks to be built like a tank, so it should do well over the long haul.

Cheers!


----------



## js (Jul 22, 2009)

My favorite brewing method is a vac pot. You're pretty much guaranteed to get the perfect brewing temperature every time, and it's an amazing thing to watch, and the results are also amazing. Plus, you know, glass is awesome. No plastic touching the coffee. It makes a great cup. I much prefer the cloth filters to using a glass rod. If I wanted a thicker cup like the glass rod produces, I'd just use my french press instead.

The problem, of course, is inconvenience. You really need to pre-heat the water before you put it in the vac pot, otherwise it takes too long. So that's a bit annoying. Then, clean up afterwards is nowhere near as convenient as just throwing a paper filter full of spent grinds away! You need a strainer to pour the water and grinds through, to catch the grinds and throw them away in the trash, or compost or wherever. And then you still end up with a lot of grinds in the sink. And you need to handle the cloth filter with some care, especially if you use it a lot. Over at www.coffeegeek.com you can find some good tips, but basically, you rinse it out and put it in a jar of cold water in the fridge, and then periodically clean it with some sort of active oxygen cleaner. I have it, but I can't remember the name. Hmmm.

Anyway, the point is that for every day brewing, a vac pot is hard core, and just too much work.

So, 99 percent of the time, I use my Technivorm. I have the Clement Design version with the glass carafe. I've never liked the insulated carafe, myself. I figure that if I don't drink it within minutes after the end of brewing, what does it matter anyway?

I roast my own green beans from sweetmarias, using a hot air pop corn popper. I've used other methods, seen other roasters, including an iRoast, and a Fresh Roast. I've had a first-hand tour of gimme coffee's roaster here in Ithaca NY. John Gant is their roast master. They have a Sievets fluid bed roaster that takes 37 lbs of green in, if I remember correctly. And I've had some seriously good coffee, freshly roasted, by people who know what they're doing. And, while it's obviously better to have better equipment, and more control, in my experience, the main thing is just to roast it fresh in your own home. My hot air pop corn popper does a pretty good job. If it didn't, I would have bought a better roaster by now! When it dies, and I have an excuse to give my wife (but, honey, my old roaster died. I really need an Ambex mini-Roaster!) then I'll buy a "real" roaster, but until then, it's doing a fantastic job. I have a second hot air popcorn popper--a West Bend "The Poppery"--that I modded so that I can switch the heat on and off but still have the fan, and I use it purely to cool the beans once they reach the proper degree of roast. I also have a thermometer installed in my roaster, but I mostly go by the color, sound, and smoke smell, in any case.

After roasting and resting, the coffee gets ground in a Zassenhaus knee mill, which does the job, but isn't all that great. I'd really love to have a Mazer burr mill, and if I had $600 burning a hole in my pocket, I'd order one tomorrow, without any hesitation, but it does a good enough job for my paper filters in my Technivorm. It really falls down a bit for french press or vac pot brewing, though. The grind just isn't even enough. Not compared to a Mazer.

Anyway, the main thing to understand about coffee, which isn't really well known, is that it is a lot more like bread, than it is like tea. Tea leaves can sit around for a year and still be quite good, still make a great cup. But, you'd never think that two week old bread would be as good as bread fresh out of the oven, right? Same goes for coffee. A week after roasting, and you've really lost a lot of quality. It's still good, it's just nowhere near as good as it was a day or two after roasting. And of course, you should grind right before brewing. Pre-ground, pre-roasted coffee is the worst case scenario, but is, sadly, the rule.

Oh, and if you use milk or cream, put it in the cup first, then add the coffee. It makes a much better cup of coffee, believe it or not!


----------



## js (Jul 22, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> My attempts at roasting in the 70's were fry pan and then cookie sheet in the oven, neither method was very successful.
> 
> . . .



LOL! Yup. You have to be like a demonic stir-er to avoid scortching the beans in a fry pan! And the best thing I can say about a cookie sheet roast is that it makes your house smell nice.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 23, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> I took a couple of pictures of the Behmor and the Breville kettle today.
> 
> Behmore all fired up and the door open.



Great photos!!! I do my roasting in a room that has an effective vent fan, or outside if above 60°F I enjoy the aroma of coffee roasting, so what doesn't get vented is fine.

Can't wait to get that kettle. Amazing that you can pick it up off that platform...they really went full out on designing that baby. First thing I'm gonna do is check the temps with my Fluke 189 probe just to see how close it really is. 

I have verified several times that the water coming out of the Technivorm is between 199 - 204°F, but as it sits puddled in the plastic filter holder, it starts at 189°F and goes up to 197°F with lid on as plastic cone heats up. The hotplate keeps the caraffe at 170°F


----------



## tygger (Jul 23, 2009)

Anyone else here use the porecelian Melitta? Thanks to this thread I've been keeping a sharp eye on water temp. which does make a huge difference. I do have a question though. Whats the optimal flow rate of a drip filter? In other words, how long should the coffee come in contact with the water?


----------



## js (Jul 23, 2009)

tygger,

IIRC, no longer than 6 minutes, and I think 4 minutes or somewhat less is optimal.

Check out www.sweetmarias.com website. They have tip sheets for using all of the various brewing methods, including this one we're talking about. I think you also want to pre-wet the paper filter.


----------



## mikewarne (Jul 23, 2009)

If you want to make yourself some good coffee you should take necessary tips from an expert. You can also take help from Chmex Coffee Makers.You will get many methods of preparing delicious coffee.


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 23, 2009)

tygger,

Over the years, I've found the advice from Tom @ Sweetmarias to be pretty much the best advice I've seen in the coffee industry. So, yes devour that website! Great information!! 

The optimal time that coffee grounds are exposed to the water depends upon the fineness and consistency of your grind, the temperature of your water, the brewing method you employ, the variety of the coffee bean you use, AND your taste.

When you taste coffee that is over extracted, it is VERY obvious. 

I would suggest that you experiment with different times and keep notes to find the optimal time for your set up. 

The goal is to extract the maximum flavor from the coffee grounds without OVER extracting to the point where you get the undesirable flavors and aromas from the coffee.

Personally, I tend to use more coffee and less time so as to avoid any essence of the over extracted flavor components. Your taste may vary.

I love ceramic cones, but remember that you should pre heat them before making your coffee otherwise your initial pour when you start your brew cycle will be too cold as the ceramic cone heats up. With a plastic cone it's easy to ream out the hole to a larger diameter to increase the flow rate, with a ceramic cone you can't do that, so the only way to control the flow is by the type of filter paper you use and the fineness & consistency of your grind. In my experience, I like the Melita micro perforated brown filter cone paper for the best flow rate and least taste imparted to the coffee. 

Cheers!


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 23, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Great photos!!! I do my roasting in a room that has an effective vent fan, or outside if above 60°F I enjoy the aroma of coffee roasting, so what doesn't get vented is fine.
> 
> Can't wait to get that kettle. Amazing that you can pick it up off that platform...they really went full out on designing that baby. First thing I'm gonna do is check the temps with my Fluke 189 probe just to see how close it really is.
> 
> I have verified several times that the water coming out of the Technivorm is between 199 - 204°F, but as it sits puddled in the plastic filter holder, it starts at 189°F and goes up to 197°F with lid on as plastic cone heats up. The hotplate keeps the caraffe at 170°F



Lux! Good morning!
I will have to find my temp probe and check the water temp too. The directions say they guarantee the temp +/- 5F. 

When I have the kettle set to 200F and on hold, it seems to cycle at least once every minute or two to keep the water exactly where it wants it to be. Pretty cool!

My roasting area is in my workroom ( laboratory...muhahaha  ) at the back of our garage. When I roast coffee, I actually just dump my exhaust into the garage from the work room. Occasionally, this results in a garage full of smoke, but my workroom remains relatively smoke free. If I have a garage door open, smoke never accumulates.


----------



## tygger (Jul 23, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> tygger,
> 
> 
> When you taste coffee that is over extracted, it is VERY obvious.




Ah, yes, this has been a problem. I think I'll try a corser grind and pre-wetting the filter as js suggested. (I use the melitta filters) Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, I have some experiementing to do.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 23, 2009)

One other sign of those clever Dutch is they put a sliding switch on the Technivorm filter basket, allowing you to close or control opening of drain hole. 

Now if they just included the babe on their opening page :kiss: with a custom home installation, I would be all set.  (At least she winked at me)
I do wish there was a better way to maintain the 195-205°F water in the cone, but the flavor seems to be great despite my measurement. Only beef I do have with the TV is the little rubber stopper eventually stops making a complete shutoff seal, and if you want to get a replacement, Boyds Coffee will only sell you a complete cone for $6.08 + $9.95 shipping.


----------



## js (Jul 23, 2009)

Lux,

I wouldn't worry about the first bit of water in the cone and the fact that your fluke measured a lower temp there.

On my TV brewer, 99 percent of the water that gets down to the pot is in the 195+ range (I measured it), and that is not a consequence of the heater plate there, as I insulted between the pot and the heater. Water has a serious specific heat, so if it starts at 195-200 at the nozzle, it will remain pretty damn close to that through the beans and into the carafe.

I have the same Fluke meter and temp probe as you, and if it gets the least bit of air in between water spurts, the temp will read lower than it really is. It reacts FAST to temperature changes, in other words, and there is some averaging built into the Fluke meter on the temp probe setting, so unless it's totally submerged for the length of your reading, you can't trust that it is really reporting the actual temperature of the water itself.

The Technivorm really does deliver water through the grounds that is at the correct temperature.

As for the rubber stopper, mine also leaked, so I just removed it. It forces me to totally remove the basket and filter and take care of it right away, BEFORE I drink my coffee--so I expect it will stay cleaner longer. And it means removing and replacing the carafe is easier due to less down pressure.

tygger,

What kwkarth said! I forgot to mention that the grind size and brewing method is critical for determining the extraction time. A coarser grind can stay in contact with the water for a lot longer before over-extracting. You definitely want to play with the grind size, the brewing time, and the amount of coffee. It always takes some tweaking, no matter how good and specific the advice (e.g. SM tip sheet for your exact setup).


----------



## Diesel_Bomber (Jul 24, 2009)

Just tried cold brew. I'm not educated enough to describe what exactly about the flavor it is that I don't like...........but I don't like it. Well worth the experiment, but won't be brewing coffee that way again.


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 25, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Lux! Good morning!
> I will have to find my temp probe and check the water temp too. The directions say they guarantee the temp +/- 5F.
> 
> When I have the kettle set to 200F and on hold, it seems to cycle at least once every minute or two to keep the water exactly where it wants it to be. Pretty cool!
> ...



Well folks, after living with it for the past few days, the Breville is growing on me.










Here are my observations so far;

*Pro:*

It seems to be keeping water temp pretty consistent.
It's quiet.
Easy to fill.
Easy to clean.
Pretty fast to heat water.
Nice preset temp. choices.
Seems to have been built like a bank vault.

*Con:*

Manufacturing is not flawless. (some ripples in the lathe turning)
When you pick up the kettle and then replace it on the base, the keep warm mode needs to be reselected. (requires two button pushes)


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 26, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Well folks, after living with it for the past few days, the Breville is growing on me.



Man it takes a long time to get something delivered by them. I finally got the UPS tracking Friday.


----------



## prof (Jul 27, 2009)

Major coffee snob here. Love it. Use multiple methods depending on mood. Roast my own (of course). Sweet Marias is fantastic.


My mother occasionally uses my grandmother's old perc with lighter-roasted coffee. It's not bad but not my favorite either. Good memories however.


----------



## cernobila (Jul 27, 2009)

Well I also picked up the Breville 820 from my local store and did not tell my wife about it till she went to make a cup of green tea........the reaction was....."what the hell is this?"....I pointed out all the features and after about two cups of tea and one cup of coffee, she said, "it actually makes a better drink, you done something right for a change and "

So now I have to get a decent glass/stainless steel French Press and a good old fashioned hand coffee grinder......then will come the bean selection and experimenting with the grinder....


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 27, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Man it takes a long time to get something delivered by them. I finally got the UPS tracking Friday.



Got it today. Ya know how every once in a while you come across something that is so well made you are just taken back like seeing a work of art? 
I knew I had something special when I saw a detail on one of the smallest aspects, namely the electric plug. 


​I have never seen anyone give thought to making an easier way to unplug a plug. Being able to put a finger in the hole to remove the plug is genius. The plug prongs were also covered by an accurately shaped plastic protector, vs. the generic prong covers.

The bottom of the heating plate actually has one of those cord wrap around spindles to hide unneeded lengths of cord--but this one REALLY works the way you wish they all did.


​The next marvel was the push button to open the top lid. It is a soft push that actuates a hidden spring mechanism that has the lid FLOAT up and open like a hot knife through butter. I closed and opened it at least a dozen times just to appreciate their artful technology.



​Even though you are only using plain water, they put a delicate metal mesh screen in the pour spout. They make it easy to remove by sliding out, and even the plastic holder that holds the screen is relatively easy to remove if you wanted to clean it.


 

​First use, I filled it above the 1800 line...to 2 liters. It took exactly 9 mins to reach a full rolling boil, verified 212° F with my fluke in the spout. It beeps when reaching target button selected temp. The handle is secure, confortable, and totally insulated from the heat.

kwkarth, I can't thank you enough for this recommendation...and I haven't even used it for coffee or tea yet. Actually I can't remember the last time I drank tea, but this makes me want to try it again. This example of elegant engineering is what it must be like in heaven.


----------



## NA8 (Jul 27, 2009)

My old Krups machine. This is the famous model with the misleading "lock" labelling that caused some problems. People thought anywhere in the lock graphic area was ok. It actually needs to be all the way over. Got it cheap at Costco


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 28, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Got it today. Ya know how every once in a while you come across something that is so well made you are just taken back like seeing a work of art?
> I knew I had something special when I saw a detail on one of the smallest aspects, namely the electric plug.
> 
> I have never seen anyone give thought to making an easier way to unplug a plug. Being able to put a finger in the hole to remove the plug is genius. The plug prongs were also covered by an accurately shaped plastic protector, vs. the generic prong covers.
> ...



LOL! If you're anywhere near sea level, a rolling boil would be at 212F. 
How does it measure at the lower temperatures?? How much temp. swing does it allow before turning itself on to reheat to the set temperature?

BTW, I'm glad you like the kettle! It's growing on me too. My wife had the same question as cernobila's wife when she first discovered the new kettle on the counter. After her initial surprise and exclaimation, she asked; "What are we going to do with the others we have?" To which I gave my standardized answer; "We'll give 'em to the kids." That always makes her happy. :tinfoil: :thumbsup: 

She actually likes the kettle and has no trouble using it, though in her own way. 

She has an apparent aversion to any sort of automation whether it's in the guise of a clothes dryer, automatic climate control in her car, or the new hot water kettle. Strangely enough, she does occasionally use the Nav in the car. I digress...

She sets the kettle for boil, even though she could select 200F, (for making drip coffee,) she hits the go button and stands there and watches it till it boils like mad, then snatches the kettle off it's base before the beeper, and pours. If I get to it first in the morning, which is the usual, I leave it to keep warm @ 200F so all she has to do is grab it and pour, but that makes no sense to her so she does it her way. :duck:


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 28, 2009)

I enjoy your posts very much!

I'll do some more of those measurements. The booklet reports only a +/- 10° F accuracy tolerance, which I think is way too high, but we'll see. 

I just did a liter at the 185° F setting, and it heated it to 184.4° F, then cycled on/off between 182.9° F back up to 184.8° F about every minute with lid open and me waving the Fluke probe in the water. It seemed to trigger heat cycle when it dropped to 183° F.

More importantly 1 Liter on the 200° F setting heated to 202.4° F in just under 5 mins, then when dropped to 198° F, triggered a heat pulse so temp stayed between 197.9° F to 202.8° F

Primo


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 28, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> I enjoy your posts very much!
> 
> I'll do some more of those measurements. The booklet reports only a +/- 10° F accuracy tolerance, which I think is way too high, but we'll see.
> 
> ...



The booklet that came with mine said within 10 degrees, not plus or minus 10, so I interpreted that to mean +/- 5. I agree with you that +/-10 is waaaay too much lattitude. Your measurements look great. I am ecstatic with those numbers!


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 28, 2009)

Well, I finally got around to hunting down the immersion temp probe.

When I had the kettle set to 175F, it shut off the heating element at 173.5F and then the temp coasted up to 176 or so.

When set to 185F, it shut off at 183.5F and coasted up to 186.

When set to 195F, it shut off at 193.5F and coasted up to 196.

When set to 200F, it shut off at 198F and coasted up to 199.5-200.

When set to 212, it shut off at 211 and coasted up to 212.

Can't get much better than that!
:twothumbs:


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 29, 2009)

Yeah, I was very surprised that they said 10 degrees variability. I think they just want to make you feel good when you find it is more like 2-3.

I have never really bought good quality teas, but found those two samples that came with it interesting and enjoyable...enough to make me look at that www.rishi-tea.com website. I could never give up my beloved coffee, but maybe some tea would be fun.


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 29, 2009)

Yup, I agree, tea is a nice alternative to coffee. I've been enjoying a lot of green teas for many years, but I have to admit I know almost nothing about tea, other than I like it. I haven't opened the teas that came with the kettle yet, but I'm looking forward to it! I was surprised to realize that these different teas require different brewing temperatures according to the "kettle." I guess I never picked up on that distinction before.

What kind of person sits around with a thermometer and measures water temperature and assesses quality of brews and steep times, hunts white walls with flashlights, measuring lux and run times, and... Oops!
I guess that would be us...  lovecpf


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Aug 1, 2009)

Kwkarth, well said. 

Bill


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 2, 2009)

I wanted to try some of that Long John tea, but they apparently are sold out. I don't have any of the proper tea accoutrements either.


----------



## DM51 (Aug 2, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> proper tea


 It's the taste... lol


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 2, 2009)

DM51 said:


> It's the taste... lol




LOL! Could you actually make out what the chimps were saying?


----------



## Joe Talmadge (Sep 24, 2009)

Okay, a bit of an old thread to revive, but thanks to you guys I picked up an Aeropress, and it is definitely my fave way of brewing now, probably the best coffee I've ever brewed myself.


----------



## kwkarth (Sep 24, 2009)

Congratulations Joe! The AeroPress may not be fancy, may not be expensive, may not be prestigious, may not be complicated, but it sure makes great coffee!!

Cheers!


----------



## TedTheLed (Sep 25, 2009)

be sure to read sweetmarias.com comments on the thing..and they are being very kind, especially regarding the low brew temperature Aero recommends, and the fact that it uses a paper filter.. it may be good for someone who travels alot or wants to brew in a hotel room, but there are other better methods to try, like press..
when I drove around alot I used a French press..I'd get a thermos of very hot water from a cafe or diner, grind my beans in an old Spong cast iron grinder sitting at the roadside scenic view picnic table, (what is that guy doing over there?) and brew it up..
probably being able to add hot water to the Aero concentrate until it tastes right to you adds a great deal to it's acceptability, but that's a good method to try with any method; brew it on the strong side, ie. using less water, then add hot water to taste, like they do with tea..


----------



## Joe Talmadge (Sep 28, 2009)

Thanks Ted, I'll have to try a French press at some point. For me, the paper filter was a positive ... not to take things off course, but in the decades of coffee studies, there were few alarms, but one was some problems with non-paper-filtered coffee, though I'd have to run back and look up why. Since the Aeropress makes better coffee than any drip coffee maker I have ever tried, I think it's a pure win vs even really good drip makers. I agree with SweetMarias that aeropress "espresso" is not espresso at all but concentrated coffee, but I'll forgive them that. Still, though I want to drink filtered coffee most days, I am interested in what the best non-paper-filtered methods are.

BTW, I couldn't find a review section anywhere. Am I just retarded?


----------



## TedTheLed (Sep 29, 2009)

does this count as a 'review'-- ?

http://sweetmarias.com/prod.aeropress.php

...and more details about how to use it; with pictures..

http://sweetmarias.com/aeropress/aeropress_instructions.php

as for paper vs, non-paper health issues, I have heard nothing really,
and coffee in general seems to have just about all good press if you keep it below 4-6 cups a day..

as for tatse that is entirely your call, it's what you like thst counts, still, you want to keep an open mind, (or is it mouth? ) when it comes to exploring,.you don't want to try a pot of press brew one day, and have it brewed too dilute or cool, or whatever, and then blame the brew method..
I say it's possible to get great tatsting coffee from any method, as long as it's done right. Getting the grind/water ratio right is trickier than you might think, especially if your using different beans all the time..

and re: sediment vs. paper; letting a pot sit a couple minutes and then pouring gently avoids getting nearly any the grounds in your cup.. and what's more; there are even finer filter available for press; fine nylon mesh you add on to the press screen..Maria's has 'em... enjoy.


----------



## Joe Talmadge (Sep 29, 2009)

TedTheLed said:


> does this count as a 'review'-- ?



Okay, saw those, thanks. I'd misread what you wrote as "review", now I realize you specifically said "comments". Overall, the comments seemed to indicate the coffee was good from the aeropress -- I'd heartily agree -- though I also agree the recommended brewing temperature was too low. Very quickly figured that out when my coffee kept turning out lukewarm!



> as for paper vs, non-paper health issues, I have heard nothing really,
> and coffee in general seems to have just about all good press if you keep it below 4-6 cups a day..



Here's one of the studies being described in an overview: 

http://news.bio-medicine.org/biolog...offee-may-increase-heart-attack-risk-11968-1/

The above is unfiltered coffee only (by unfiltered, read paper filter). Paper filtered coffee had no such results.



> as for tatse that is entirely your call, it's what you like thst counts, still, you want to keep an open mind, (or is it mouth? ) when it comes to exploring,.you don't want to try a pot of press brew one day, and have it brewed too dilute or cool, or whatever, and then blame the brew method..
> I say it's possible to get great tatsting coffee from any method, as long as it's done right. Getting the grind/water ratio right is trickier than you might think, especially if your using different beans all the time..



No doubt, the goal is to get the best coffee, not fall in love with one particular method and never try anything else...


----------



## TedTheLed (Oct 1, 2009)

Joe I read the link, and come away with this;

... They concluded that while heavy coffee consumption is probably safe for the majority, individuals at risk of cardiovascular diseases should not drink large amounts of unfiltered coffee. Possible health effects with filtered coffee remain to be determined..."

..I'd be interested if any other learned institutions come up with similar results, meantime I'll try to keep it down to five cups a day! thanks...

..but sure you should keep trying different neans, it's large exciting world to explore...after a few years you might find a bean you'd like to settle down with, and buy a big sack of it.. (I won't tell you the bean I chose, because I like it so much I'm afraid of it becoming too popular and then unavailable..but it is from sweetmarias  )


----------



## Joe Talmadge (Oct 2, 2009)

TedTheLed said:


> Joe I read the link, and come away with this;
> 
> ... They concluded that while heavy coffee consumption is probably safe for the majority, individuals at risk of cardiovascular diseases should not drink large amounts of unfiltered coffee. Possible health effects with filtered coffee remain to be determined..."



Yes, and I'm fairly sure I"ve read followups that show no such problems with filtered coffee... note also that I just did a quick lookup of one study, I'd seen at least one more that showed concerns with unfiltered coffee, but I'd need to hunt it down



> ..but sure you should keep trying different neans, it's large exciting world to explore...after a few years you might find a bean you'd like to settle down with, and buy a big sack of it.. (I won't tell you the bean I chose, because I like it so much I'm afraid of it becoming too popular and then unavailable..but it is from sweetmarias  )



Heh, cool... by nature, I'm a "variety uber alles" kind of guy, I can't resist taking the risk of having a crappy experience with a new bean over a guaranteed good experience with a known one. Perhaps one day I'll settle down


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 2, 2009)

TedTheLed said:


> ...after a few years you might find a bean you'd like to settle down with, and buy a big sack of it.. (*I won't tell you the bean I chose, because I like it so much I'm afraid of it becoming too popular and then unavailable..*but it is from sweetmarias  )



Awww come on....spill the beans! It will be our little secret.


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Oct 2, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Awww come on....spill the beans! It will be our little secret.



Yeah, just the three of us. 

Bill


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 4, 2009)

I made a pilgrimage to *Costco* today, and rand across this by accident...

*Gadget Alert! -------- Gadget Alert!*

You guys remember the Breville electric kettle we were discussing earlier in this thread? Well, I still have mine and I love it, but if I had been wanting one and not gotten it yet, here's the solution to your needs...

This kettle is so cool, it should be the official kettle of CPF... It's simply BRIMMING with LEDs!

It is the Saeco Electric Kettle Mod. 101167 (1167)





It has four temperature settings, and a three digit temperature display that seems to be quite accurate. When the water boils, the display happens to be reading 212. When the temperature hold (up to 2 hours) is set to (High = 200F) the display happens to go as low as 199, at which point the heater cycles on and runs until it reads 202, then the heater shuts off... Pretty cool eh?

That's nuthin'. There are leds inside the kettle that illuminate the water. When the water is stone cold, it's illuminated ice blue, and as the water heats up, the temperature cycles through the colors of the rainbow, (ice blue, green, yellow. orange, purple, red) indicating the water temperature until it boils, at which point the water is illuminated red. Very cool.

Here's the bad news... THe retail on this baby is about 90 bux US.
Here's the good news... The price at Costco is about 35 bux US.

You know how Costco is, here today and gone tomorrow, so if you want one, I would advise you get 'em while they're hot!

Cheers!
kevin


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 5, 2009)

I would question the reliability of something that has multiple color LED's and thermal sensor display for only $60. This review on Amazon says it keeps tasting like plastic after multiple boils. I'm hesitant to consider something that has the heated water in proximity to electronics. I think Breville got it right putting the electronics/display in an isolated, water free base, and kept the caraffe as a separate stainless pitcher.


----------



## saabluster (Nov 5, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> I have never really bought good quality teas, but found those two samples that came with it interesting and enjoyable...enough to make me look at that www.rishi-tea.com website. I could never give up my beloved coffee, but maybe some tea would be fun.


I just found this thread. I don't come down here all that often. I feel I have to chime in here though. I am quite fond of both coffee and tea. For coffee I have not had much that beats Starbucks Ethiopia Sidamo. Of course proper preparation is essential. The grinder(must be fresh ground) must be cleaned out throughly before adding new beans. The old bits can fall into the new batch and give it that bitter taste. Have everything set up and ready before grinding the beans. After you start brewing take the first full cup brewed instead of allowing the whole thing to finish first. That first bit is the most flavorful and least bitter. It's three o'clock AM here but just talking about it makes me want to put a pot on.

Now as to the tea thing. I am extremely fond of a good cup of tea. I have over 65 flavors of tea. Lux might I suggest you check out Silk Road Teas. Absolutely exquisite stuff. Want to wow your wife for a special night? They don't carry one of my favorites anymore. Camels breath. Very earthy and just wonderful.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 5, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> I would question the reliability of something that has multiple color LED's and thermal sensor display for only $60. This review on Amazon says it keeps tasting like plastic after multiple boils. I'm hesitant to consider something that has the heated water in proximity to electronics. I think Breville got it right putting the electronics/display in an isolated, water free base, and kept the caraffe as a separate stainless pitcher.



I ran three pots from cold to boil and on the 4th pot, I made some tea. If you stick your nose into the pot at that point you may still smell plastic as I did, but the odor does not seem to be imparted to the water itself, and had no presence in the tea that I made.

Granted, the Breville is still a superior product, and I will continue to use mine after I'm done playing with this Saeco.  Remember this critter retails for 90 but is only 35 or so at Costco.


----------



## Fulgeo (Nov 5, 2009)

I have been drinking coffee for about 30 years and can admit it is probably my only vice. Coffee is such a sweet mistress. I have used a french press which made a decent quick cup. I have one of those Cuisinart - Grind & Brew 12-Cup Automatic which also produces great coffee. You could load it up with beans and water set the auto function and early in the morning you have fresh coffee. Plus when it grinds the beans in the AM sort of acts as an alarm clock. For the last couple years thou I have used for the most part one of those cheap Mr. Coffee 4-Cup coffee coffeemakers. It only cost $14.00. Just an on/off switch with a heat pad. It is very easy to clean and just gets the job done and most importantly makes coffee quick. On a side note I have tried many different types of coffees. Someone signed me up as a gift to one of those coffees of the months clubs which is a story in itself. I really like some of the Costa Rica coffee. They are a bit different almost fruity in taste to my pallet. As an old standby I just buy Dunkin' Donuts coffee. I believe it is the 2nd best coffee you can buy. People usually question me when I say this but where as the number one coffee changes all the time I always go back to the old standby Dunkin' Donuts cup of Joe.

Harry Java!


----------



## The Mad Scotsman (Nov 5, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



mudman cj said:


> Up front disclaimer - I am admittedly a coffee snob.
> 
> Friends don't let friends percolate coffee. This over-extracts undesirable compounds from the coffee that increase the bitterness of the drink. :green:
> Drip is definitely preferable. That said, I do not drink either. I go for espresso at home or what they call stovetop espresso at work.
> ...



Friends don't let friends become coffee snobs. I'll take a regular coffee; don't care where it comes from. Tea, now that's a different story. Tea is to sirloin as Coffee is to cheeseburgers.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 5, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



The Mad Scotsman said:


> Friends don't let friends become coffee snobs. I'll take a regular coffee; don't care where it comes from. Tea, now that's a different story. Tea is to sirloin as Coffee is to cheeseburgers.



Ignoring the unlearned comment about coffee for now  , I want to learn more about teas. Educate me please!!


----------



## The Mad Scotsman (Nov 5, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



kwkarth said:


> Ignoring the unlearned comment about coffee for now  , I want to learn more about teas. Educate me please!!



I would recommend you start by picking up The Harney and Sons Guide to Tea by Michael Harney and The Story of Tea by Mary Lou Heiss. Those books will give you a good look at the rich history of tea and a good overview of the different varieties and methods of brewing.

Edit: I never saw that dig when I first saw your post. I can assure you that I am quite educated on the subject.

I see you are a fellow christian. Let's not get started on each other eh?


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 5, 2009)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



The Mad Scotsman said:


> I would recommend you start by picking up The Harney and Sons Guide to Tea by Michael Harney and The Story of Tea by Mary Lou Heiss. Those books will give you a good look at the rich history of tea and a good overview of the different varieties and methods of brewing.
> 
> Edit: I never saw that dig when I first saw your post. I can assure you that I am quite educated on the subject.
> 
> I see you are a fellow christian. Let's not get started on each other eh?



No doubt you are intellectually educated about coffee itself, and I didn't mean my comment to be a "dig." You seem however, by your choice of words, to see those who are discriminate about and appreciate good coffee, as "coffee snobs" and the bit about cheesburgers and steak... I can assure you that the opinion that you expressed is FAR from true. Just for the record, while we're at it, good coffee has to be neither expensive, nor exclusive. Conversely, bad coffee can be found in many coffee boutiques these days, masquerading expensively, as the good stuff, when it is not. Perhaps you've never had a really good cup of coffee. Perhaps it was only coffee masquerade? 

I would love to treat you to a good cup, come on over some time, Bro! 

Thanks for the recommendation on the book! I have some teas by Harney & Sons. I will have to get a copy of that book to read!!

I've got a number of Herbal, White Teas, Green teas, Pekoe, and Black teas, as well as a number of mixed blends.

What's the difference between Irish Breakfast and English Breakfast??

Thanks!


----------



## The Mad Scotsman (Nov 5, 2009)

Sorry if I came off sounding like a pompous ***. I do that on the internets sometimes. It's an illness.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether tea is a healthier, more sophisticated drink with a richer history and far more subtlety of flavour than even wine, but I think we can do that and remain friendly. 

I drink plenty of coffee but I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't think I've ever had a truly great cup of coffee. I can make a world class cup of tea (anyone can) with a kettle, some good water, a thermometer, a timer and some premium tea but somewhere along the line I've gotten the impression that good coffee, never mind great coffee, requires all sorts of expensive roasters, grinders, and coffeemakers. The reason I got into quality tea, apart from being British, is that the bar to entry is so low. 

If I'm ever in your part of the world I'd love to have coffee with you.

You may already be aware of this but herbal tea is not actually tea. It's tasty and quite often good for you but it is not tea. All tea varieties, no matter how different they all look when dried, come from the same plant; Camellia sinensus. Also unlike black, green , Pu-erh, white etc. Pekoe is not a type of tea, it is a grade of black tea which refers to the size of the dried leaf. Pekoe consists of shorter; less fine leaves than Orange Pekoe. Some other grades include Broken Orange Pekoe (BOP), Flowery Orange Pekoe (FOP), Golden Flowery Orange Pekoe (GFOP), Tippy Golden Flowery Orange Pekoe (TGFOP) and Finest Tippy Golden Flowery Orange Pekoe (FTGFOP which some people jokingly say stands for Far To Good For Ordinary People). For some reason some blenders have decided to use the term Orange Pekoe to sell a certain distinctive flavour of tea but many different tasting teas can be graded as Orange Pekoe, or Broken Orange Pekoe for that matter.

Because English Breakfast is intended to accompany fatty fried foods, such as bacon and eggs, and strong flavours, such as smoked fish, English Breakfast blends usually contain Indian (usually Assam), Ceylon, and African teas.The Irish have traditionally always liked their tea strong and dark, and these blends consist of rich malty Assams, sometimes with African and Indonesian leaf added. Irish Breakfast tends to have more emphasis on the Assam to give a stronger, maltier taste. These are blended teas of a lower grade leaf and while personally I love both of them, some people turn there nose up at them in favour of higher grade unblended teas made up of unbroken leafs. 

I could give you the names of some good online retailers but I don't want you to think I'm shilling for anyone because I'm not, I just have my favourites. Adagio has a trendy little website with nice pictures of the teas they sell, a user forum and lot's of customer reviews. Upton Tea Imports has a website that looks like something circa 1995 but they have an insane selection of all types of teas but they specialize in the more expensive Darjeelings. Both of these sites have sections that will educate you about tea.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 6, 2009)

The Mad Scotsman said:


> Sorry if I came off sounding like a pompous ***. I do that on the internets sometimes. It's an illness.
> 
> We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether tea is a healthier, more sophisticated drink with a richer history and far more subtlety of flavour than even wine, but I think we can do that and remain friendly.
> 
> ...



Wow! This is great and I've learned a lot tonight. Thank you!

Thanks! If I can reciprocate with coffee info, please let me know. You are correct in realizing that proper processing from green coffee bean to finished cup need not be overly expensive, and the varietal nature of the bean is more distinct typically with lighter roasts which reveal more subtle flavor profiles. Year to year, crop to crop, farm to farm, the beans often differ from year to year, as does any agricultural product.

You're just a "little" North of us on the left coast, so any time you're wanting to go South for a winter break, let us know and we'll put on the pot for you!!


----------



## The Mad Scotsman (Nov 6, 2009)

Yeah, I might pick your brain for info on how to make good coffee, I gotta go for now but I'll be back with questions.

I really only used the cheeseburger analogy because I'm convinced that tea offers more health benefits but maybe that ignores the fact that coffee can be a complex brew with many different subtle flavours.

Can you order good beans online? I think I might try some high quality beans and one of those french mill thingies and see how my interest goes from there. I guess that a french press and a grinder wont break the bank.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 6, 2009)

The Mad Scotsman said:


> Yeah, I might pick your brain for info on how to make good coffee, I gotta go for now but I'll be back with questions.
> 
> I really only used the cheeseburger analogy because I'm convinced that tea offers more health benefits but maybe that ignores the fact that coffee can be a complex brew with many different subtle flavours.
> 
> Can you order good beans online? I think I might try some high quality beans and one of those french mill thingies and see how my interest goes from there. I guess that a french press and a grinder wont break the bank.



Yes, you can, but the most significant key to obtaining the best quality bean of any given variety mandates that it be freshly roasted. Regardless of how it's stored, a freshly roasted is "good" for two weeks at best, after that you may as well throw them away. That's how much difference there is between freshly roasted beans and old, stale, or rancid beans. I roast my own because it is really quite easy and does not have to be done expensively.

The same place where I buy most of my green beans (which keep at home in their green state for 2-3 years without significant degradation) also sells roasted coffee. I would recommend that you try them. They will not roast until after they receive your order and them ship them promptly to you.

http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.roasted.php

There may be others in this thread who regularly buy roasted beans from the web who could suggest a more economical source. Just be sure you know the exact roast date, and that you have it in your hands no longer than three days after roasting max.

Lastly, the method by which you brew your coffee is at least as important in determining the quality of the final product, so we should discuss that in more detail as well.

Cheers!


----------



## js (Nov 6, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Yes, you can, but the most significant key to obtaining the best quality bean of any given variety mandates that it be freshly roasted. *Regardless of how it's stored, a freshly roasted is "good" for two weeks at best, after that you may as well throw them away. That's how much difference there is between freshly roasted beans and old, stale, or rancid beans. I roast my own because it is really quite easy and does not have to be done expensively.*
> 
> The same place where I buy most of my green beans (which keep at home in their green state for 2-3 years without significant degradation) also sells roasted coffee. I would recommend that you try them. They will not roast until after they receive your order and them ship them promptly to you.
> 
> ...



Exactly!

Few people have really experienced FRESH coffee. And the reason is that stale coffee is still really, really good. But _relative_ to freshly roasted and ground and properly brewed coffee? Might as well throw it away, as kwkarth says. The difference is greater even than between properly brewed high quality tea vs. a low quality bag tea made with luke-warm water and steeped for far too long.

I used to be way, way, waaay into tea. It was like a religious ritual for me for a number years of my life. I had a tea pot and fine loose leaf teas. Grace Rare Tea Formosa Oolong was my favorite. And I had a kettle for boiling water and I took great care in steeping time. Etc. All of it.

And, OMG, tea is indeed divine. Tea is amazing. I love tea. But, the gods punished me for drinking too much of it too often by giving me some sort of adverse reaction to it after a while. Maybe it was tannin overdose, maybe it was something else. I don't know. But instead of the wonderful feeling I used to get from drinking tea, I started feeling worse, not better, after drinking it.

Enter coffee.

I used to think that coffee drinkers had it easy because they could get a pretty darned good cup of coffee out at various stores, whereas it was nearly impossible to find a place that served a good cup of tea. And, I do indeed quite enjoy coffee at various places out and about. But what I was missing was that _truly_ good coffee required freshly roasted beans, and few cafes offered that.

Then, at some point, my local grocery store installed a roasting machine and many bins of green coffee beans, and I thought, wow, that's cool! I think I'll try a half pound of something.

And I did.

And OH, MY, GOD! What a difference! Just the SMELL emanating from that bag of freshly roasted beans was out of this world. Despite it being evening, the smell was so good, I just had to make up a pot of coffee right then and there. And, OH MY GOD! I had never had coffee even half that good! It was amazing!

Since then, I've been hooked on fresh roasted, and took up home roasting as well as home grinding and brewing.

Finally, just a factoid to consider: no other food stuff has anywhere near the number flavor components as coffee. It is the MOST complex (by number of distinct elements) of anything we have. It even dwarfs vanilla, which is also quite complex. It stands alone in the "high complexity" category. Not only is it distinctive and immediately appealing to many, but it is ALSO subtle and complex and unfolds itself over many many cups, over a lifetime, and is appealing to connoisseurs and professional foodies even more than to coffee "newbies".

Don't get me wrong. Tea is lovely lovely lovely. And it is subtle and wonderful and amazing. But, to say that coffee is to tea as a cheeseburger is to sirloin is simply untenable, even . . . untrue.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 6, 2009)

js said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Few people have really experienced FRESH coffee. And the reason is that stale coffee is still really, really good. But _relative_ to freshly roasted and ground and properly brewed coffee? Might as well throw it away, as kwkarth says. The difference is greater even than between properly brewed high quality tea vs. a low quality bag tea made with luke-warm water and steeped for far too long.
> 
> ...



Well said! I might also add that more and more studies are popping up all the time regarding newly found health benefits of moderate coffee consumption.


----------



## js (Nov 6, 2009)

I always like hearing about how coffee might possibly be GOOD for you, taken in moderation!

However, I would drink the stuff even if it was shown to be decidely (but mildly) BAD for you. It's just too good. I just couldn't give it up.

I mean, I COULD give it up. And back years ago when I was Catholic, I actually DID give it up every Lent. And didn't that suck. Awful. I didn't mind too much the no sweets, and reduced food consumption. But no coffee? Good grief! That was another story!

Anyway, coffee is also extremely useful for those people who need to work the graveyard shift. And, yes, studies have supported this assertion. But, I can tell you from long experience that coffee is a GODSEND for people working from midnight to 8AM. It's even more useful, for me, in _switching_ my schedule around, either to graveyard shifts, or back. When I want to switch to the graveyard schedule, I just don't have coffee that morning. It's not super fun, but I sleep in anyway, and the first day (for me) without coffee isn't terrible. But then, at 11PM, I drink a full pot of the stuff and it makes working overnight so so much easier. It's the difference between 8 hours of sheer hell and 8 hours of mild discomfort.

So, I wouldn't give the stuff up, even if it were shown to not be good for me.

It's good for the _soul_ is how I see it. :devil:


----------



## Fulgeo (Nov 6, 2009)

js said:


> It's good for the _soul_ is how I see it. :devil:



Soul Juice! :thumbsup:


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 6, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> I would question the reliability of something that has multiple color LED's and thermal sensor display for only $60. This review on Amazon says it keeps tasting like plastic after multiple boils. I'm hesitant to consider something that has the heated water in proximity to electronics. I think Breville got it right putting the electronics/display in an isolated, water free base, and kept the caraffe as a separate stainless pitcher.



Happy to report that after a couple of days of use, there is no more plastic odor from the electric pot.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 6, 2009)

The Mad Scotsman said:


> Can you order good beans online? I think I might try some high quality beans and one of those french mill thingies and see how my interest goes from there. I guess that a french press and a grinder wont break the bank.



I think using Sweet Marias is one of the best bets because of their rigorous taste testing of selective high quality lots that change from year to year before purchasing, and rapid stock turnover. Some years they won't recommend any coffee from Jamaican Blue Mountain, or Hawaiian Kona. I'm most happy with Central American coffees, or some South American.

However, if you don't want to deal with the roasting and want pretty high quality beans which they also freshly roast on day of shipping, get a bag from Peet's. I used to love this specific Major ****ason blend until I started fresh roasting. It will be optimal for about 7-10 days after receipt, unless there is a longer shipping delay to you in Canada.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 6, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Happy to report that after a couple of days of use, there is no more plastic odor from the electric pot.



Excellent news. Of course I would love to try it just from a gimmick standpoint, so let me know how the LED's hold up after a couple months of use.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 6, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Excellent news. Of course I would love to try it just from a gimmick standpoint, so let me know how the LED's hold up after a couple months of use.



Believe it or not, my wife really likes this kettle. Maybe it's the simple user interface, and she thinks the led lights are cool too. She doesn't see what's to be excited about WRT the real time three digit temperature monitor. :huh::laughing: But I like it!! :thumbsup:


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 6, 2009)

The Mad Scotsman said:


> Yeah, I might pick your brain for info on how to make good coffee, I gotta go for now but I'll be back with questions.
> 
> I really only used the cheeseburger analogy because I'm convinced that tea offers more health benefits but maybe that ignores the fact that coffee can be a complex brew with many different subtle flavours.
> 
> Can you order good beans online? I think I might try some high quality beans and one of those french mill thingies and see how my interest goes from there. I guess that a french press and a grinder wont break the bank.


As far as a grinder that won't break the bank... Depends upon what you're going to grind for. For good espresso, forget it, you're not getting away cheap.

First and foremost, forget ALL blade grinders on the market!! They ALL massacre the coffee beans producing an overheated and inconsistent grind / granule size which will produce a yucky tasting mixture of over and under extracted flavors, regardless of your brew method.

A few years ago, I bought half a dozen similarly priced grinders to test. Generally, the lower the grind speed, the better, because you don't want to "heat" the beans as you grind them, it will alter the flavor of the beans and NOT in a good way. Conical burr designs tend to be the best for low RPM grinding while maintaining very consistent granule size of the grind.

Below are my recommendations;

For regular drip, french press, AeroPress and the like, you can't beat the 
Capresso Infinity Burr Grinder for the money.
http://www.capresso.com/coffee-grinders-burr-infinity.shtml

About 90 bux new

or same innards, with more solid casing and well worth the diff in price:
About 100 to 140 bux

or

There goes your economy, but a better grinder


----------



## The Mad Scotsman (Nov 7, 2009)

kwkarth and Lux Luthor, thanks for the info; I'm taking this all in and I'm actually looking forward to trying some good coffee.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 7, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Excellent news. Of course I would love to try it just from a gimmick standpoint, so let me know how the LED's hold up after a couple months of use.



The lighting for the interior of the pot seems to be a single led with a multi color die inside. The three primaries are represented and then the logic and driver mix the colors to produce the needed color. They don't seem to be overdriven so I wouldn't expect any lifespan problems other than from cheesy construction, the construction seems pretty good, and there's no evidence of poor construction. Nothing is immersed in water, everything is outside of the water containment vessel. Anyway, as you say, time will tell. Nice gimmicks though. Right up a flashaholic's alley.


----------



## js (Nov 7, 2009)

I have a zassenhaus hand cranked grinder with a conical burr mill that is pretty good. Not as good as a really good grinder, like a Mazzer, and not good enough to do espresso or french press, but more than good enough for drip or vac pot, and a zass can be had on ebay for $40 to $50 last time I checked. Just another option to consider.

For me the next step up would be the Solis. And then the Mazzer Mini.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 7, 2009)

js said:


> I have a zassenhaus hand cranked grinder with a conical burr mill that is pretty good. Not as good as a really good grinder, like a Mazzer, and not good enough to do espresso or french press, but more than good enough for drip or vac pot, and a zass can be had on ebay for $40 to $50 last time I checked. Just another option to consider.
> 
> For me the next step up would be the Solis. And then the Mazzer Mini.



Yes, you're right that's a good mill, but where do you put the batteries?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 7, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> The lighting for the interior of the pot seems to be a single led with a multi color die inside. The three primaries are represented and then the logic and driver mix the colors to produce the needed color. They don't seem to be overdriven so I wouldn't expect any lifespan problems other than from cheesy construction, the construction seems pretty good, and there's no evidence of poor construction. Nothing is immersed in water, everything is outside of the water containment vessel. Anyway, as you say, time will tell. Nice gimmicks though. Right up a flashaholic's alley.



You haven't modded it yet??? :kiss:


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 8, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> You haven't modded it yet??? :kiss:



Ha! I haven't had it long enough to have decided how to mod it yet! :laughing:


----------



## Sub_Umbra (Nov 8, 2009)

I love this place. You guys are making me feel normal again...


----------



## js (Nov 8, 2009)

Sub_Umbra said:


> I love this place. You guys are making me feel normal again...



And that my friend, is the purpose of the internet! LOL!

Sub!!! How are you doing? How are things going down your way? How's your neighborhood?


----------



## saabluster (Nov 9, 2009)

The Mad Scotsman said:


> kwkarth and Lux Luthor, thanks for the info; I'm taking this all in and I'm actually looking forward to trying some good coffee.



+1 

I can't wait to try roasting for myself! Thanks for the schooling guys.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 9, 2009)

saabluster said:


> +1
> 
> I can't wait to try roasting for myself! Thanks for the schooling guys.



Good for you! I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. If you want to get into roasting without spending too much, I would recommend you consider the Freshroast 8 as a good entry point for using a purpose built home roaster. They are quiet enough to allow you to hear 1st and 2nd cracks (part of the coffee roasting process) and make it easier for you to get the best possible roast quality at home. I would normally recommend SweetMarias.com, but they're out of stock right now and Coffeebeancorral.com seems to have them in stock for 89 bux.

Freshroast @ Coffee Bean Corral

For the info...
Freshroast @ Sweet Maria's

They're both good companies to do business with. I've bought a bunch of equipment and coffee from both of them over the years. Sweet Marias seems to have more of a commitment to giving you, the consumer, complete information, but they're both good. 

Another super highly recommended accessory is a book about home roasting by Ken Davids.

Home Coffee Roasting: Romance and Revival by Kenneth Davids.

You would also be well served to have a digital scale with at least a 1/2 lb. capacity for measuring your green beans by weight.


----------



## saabluster (Nov 9, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Good for you! I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. If you want to get into roasting without spending too much, I would recommend you consider the Freshroast 8 as a good entry point for using a purpose built home roaster. They are quiet enough to allow you to hear 1st and 2nd cracks (part of the coffee roasting process) and make it easier for you to get the best possible roast quality at home. I would normally recommend SweetMarias.com, but they're out of stock right now and Coffeebeancorral.com seems to have them in stock for 89 bux.
> 
> Freshroast @ Coffee Bean Corral
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for the suggestion. $89 is a bit steep for me right now so I will have to save up to get it. I don't have time to get into coffee like I'm into flashlights so reading a book just can't happen I only have so much time in a day. I need to be able to stick the beans in, push a button and be done. Is that doable with that roaster? Are the first and second cracks really noticeable? I wonder if my convection oven that I use for work would be able to roast the beans?


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 9, 2009)

saabluster said:


> Thank you so much for the suggestion. $89 is a bit steep for me right now so I will have to save up to get it. I don't have time to get into coffee like I'm into flashlights so reading a book just can't happen I only have so much time in a day. I need to be able to stick the beans in, push a button and be done. Is that doable with that roaster? Are the first and second cracks really noticeable? I wonder if my convection oven that I use for work would be able to roast the beans?



If you don't have the time to read that book, I would recommend that you find someplace near where you live that roasts coffee and buy it from them. Once you've experienced freshly roasted coffee, then you can make a better informed decision as to whether or not home roasting is for you.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 9, 2009)

saabluster said:


> I need to be able to stick the beans in, push a button and be done. Is that doable with that roaster? Are the first and second cracks really noticeable? I wonder if my convection oven that I use for work would be able to roast the beans?



That's how I use the iRoast2. Yes, first and second cracks are noticeable if you stand there and listen.


----------



## saabluster (Nov 9, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> If you don't have the time to read that book, I would recommend that you find someplace near where you live that roasts coffee and buy it from them. Once you've experienced freshly roasted coffee, then you can make a better informed decision as to whether or not home roasting is for you.


Sorry I don't mean for it to sound like I am not interested in reading further into it. My problem is that I have a tendency to go overboard such as I have done with flashlights. So I have to be very careful what I allow myself to get into. I can definitely see myself getting carried away with coffee. 

Good idea to find a local roaster. I will jump on that. 



LuxLuthor said:


> That's how I use the iRoast2. Yes, first and second cracks are noticeable if you stand there and listen.


Thanks Lux.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 9, 2009)

Without a doubt the cheapest way to get into it is buying a bag from Peets, and use one of those cheap, crappy, Braun blade choppers, and pulse it slowly. Use a cheap Mellita filter drip cone that are sold at grocery stores. All that is less than $50. Then if you get the "bug," move to the next step. Warning that there is smoke from roasting the coffee. Some people in apartments can have problems.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 10, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Without a doubt the cheapest way to get into it is buying a bag from Peets, and use one of those cheap, crappy, Braun blade choppers, and pulse it slowly. Use a cheap Mellita filter drip cone that are sold at grocery stores. All that is less than $50. Then if you get the "bug," move to the next step. Warning that there is smoke from roasting the coffee. Some people in apartments can have problems.



The Behmore and the Nesco are essentially "smokeless" roasters and both work well under the standard range exhaust hood.

Blade grinders produce such inferior grind results, compared to any conical burr grinder, that I don't recommend them if you want to experience really good coffee.


----------



## saabluster (Nov 10, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> The Behmore and the Nesco are essentially "smokeless" roasters and both work well under the standard range exhaust hood.
> 
> Blade grinders produce such inferior grind results, compared to any conical burr grinder, that I don't recommend them if you want to experience really good coffee.


I have a Black and Decker which claimed to have a more consistent size grind. I seem to remember it saying it was not a spinning blade. I got it at Target for around $40 maybe a year ago. That was before I learned here blades were bad but the information on the package sounded convincing to me. So I imagine it would still be good to pulse it to make it go slow? 

There is a buildup of very fine coffee particles on the top of the container after each grind. I usually make sure that gets in the filter and gets brewed. Now that I think about it that's probably best to leave out no?

Lux I have those Milleta natural brown filters but they are for an old coffee maker which broke. My new one takes the bowl shaped ones. I got the cheapest filters possible for that one. Does the filter _really_ make a difference to the flavor?


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 10, 2009)

saabluster said:


> I have a Black and Decker which claimed to have a more consistent size grind. I seem to remember it saying it was not a spinning blade. I got it at Target for around $40 maybe a year ago. That was before I learned here blades were bad but the information on the package sounded convincing to me. So I imagine it would still be good to pulse it to make it go slow?
> 
> There is a buildup of very fine coffee particles on the top of the container after each grind. I usually make sure that gets in the filter and gets brewed. Now that I think about it that's probably best to leave out no?
> 
> Lux I have those Milleta natural brown filters but they are for an old coffee maker which broke. My new one takes the bowl shaped ones. I got the cheapest filters possible for that one. Does the filter _really_ make a difference to the flavor?



Yes, filters can make a big difference! Miletta brown, and specially the bamboo filters are the best, IMHO. They offer the best flow rate and impart the least paper taste to the coffee than any other filter I've tried.

Here's the deal with ALL blade grinders...
They smash the beans by impacting them with a whirling steel blade. If the impact were not at a high rate of speed, the beans would not be blasted apart er, um, "ground." 

Two problems arise from this "grinding" method. Because the "grinding" is done by impact with a high speed spinning blade, the temperature of the beans becomes raised quite a bit during the process, and this pre-cooking, post roast, further oxidizes the coffee and makes it taste worse. This heating of the beans is detrimental to the final flavor of your brewed coffee and is very evident when comparing one grinder to another. The Capresso I mentioned in an earlier post actually raised the temperature of the beans the least.

The other major problem with blade type grinders is an inability to make the fineness of grind a consistent size of granule. What you get instead of a uniform grind, is the whole range of grind fineness from coarse to powder fine in the same batch. Coffee is best when brewed for the optimum amount of time for a given grind granularity. A very fine granule size requires much less time brewing for optimum flavor extraction. If brewed too long, you get a rancid tasting over-extracted brew. In the same ground batch you will also find coarsely ground larger particles, which require a longer brew time for best extraction. When your extraction time is too short, you get an insipid, thin tasting watery extraction. Yuck!

So, with blade ground coffee every brew contains over and under extracted flavors along with some properly extracted flavors. Over all it's yuck compared to using a consistent grind/granule size for your coffee. Properly ground coffee is at least an order of magnitude better tasting than blade ground stuff.

The Capresso yields a very consistent ground granule size.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 10, 2009)

Well Michael I'm just trying to get you a big step beyond what you likely have been using, for the least $$$ to see if the bug bites you...and pulsing the beans with a blade is what I used for at least a year. If you are patient and watch your pulse chop results, you can get a decent result.

Absolutely kwkarth's guidelines are accurate and ideal, but now you are heading for a bunch more money. Those smokeless roasters he mentioned are $200-300 + shipping. And they are not smokeless, they are just have less smoke.

IMHO, the biggest jump in quality is getting quality beans that have a quality roast. You can get that from Peets, with the first 3-7 days after arrival giving the best results.

It's kind of like that Peets + Krups blade grinder will be like going from VHS tapes to DVD. To go from DVD to BluRay, you have to get into home roasting, quality grinding, brewing at 200°F, purified/spring water, pre-heat the cup, etc. LOL!


----------



## saabluster (Nov 10, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Those smokeless roasters he mentioned are $200-300 + shipping.


----------



## js (Nov 10, 2009)

I agree with Lux. Even if you do have to use a blade grinder, going from normal run of the mill coffee (or, god forbid, instant coffee) to Peets + Krups blade grinder (or Peets + KitchenAid blade grinder--my recommendation) is a huge jump up in quality. You need to use a paper filter brewing method if you use a blade grinder, but you could actually make really good coffee, really cheaply, this way if you heat the water yourself--in a kettle or pot on the stove--and pour the hot water through a filter holder with paper filter installed. You can stir the grinds and hot water in the process--which is a good thing, but not necessary--and the filter holder is very cheap and the blade grinder is cheap and the cost of fresh roasted beans from Peats is reasonable, and you end up with one VERY good cup of coffee. Granted, not as good as if you used a burr grinder, but still quite good.

Getting the pouring hot water through a filter holder method down can be tricky. Follow the sweet marias tips, especially the one about pre-wetting the filter BEFORE adding the grinds. And make sure the water is at the right temp. But once you figure it out, you can make some awesome coffee on a budget this way. Most conventional coffee makers don't get the water hot enough is part of the problem, but the biggest thing, as I mentioned before, is that the coffee grinds are just plain _stale_. Even using fresh roasted and blade ground coffee in a convential electric drip coffee maker will be a huge step up.

Here at work I use a KitchenAid four cup coffee maker (which is pretty good relative to others, all things considered--has an 1100 watt element even though its only a four cup machine) and a KitchenAid blade grinder, and the coffee is still quite drinkable because I start with good fresh beans to begin with. Granted, it's not as good as with my zass and Technivorm or vac pot, but it's still good!


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 10, 2009)

js said:


> I agree with Lux. Even if you do have to use a blade grinder, going from normal run of the mill coffee (or, god forbid, instant coffee) to Peets + Krups blade grinder (or Peets + KitchenAid blade grinder--my recommendation) is a huge jump up in quality. You need to use a paper filter brewing method if you use a blade grinder, but you could actually make really good coffee, really cheaply, this way if you heat the water yourself--in a kettle or pot on the stove--and pour the hot water through a filter holder with paper filter installed. You can stir the grinds and hot water in the process--which is a good thing, but not necessary--and the filter holder is very cheap and the blade grinder is cheap and the cost of fresh roasted beans from Peats is reasonable, and you end up with one VERY good cup of coffee. Granted, not as good as if you used a burr grinder, but still quite good.
> 
> Getting the pouring hot water through a filter holder method down can be tricky. Follow the sweet marias tips, especially the one about pre-wetting the filter BEFORE adding the grinds. And make sure the water is at the right temp. But once you figure it out, you can make some awesome coffee on a budget this way. Most conventional coffee makers don't get the water hot enough is part of the problem, but the biggest thing, as I mentioned before, is that the coffee grinds are just plain _stale_. Even using fresh roasted and blade ground coffee in a convential electric drip coffee maker will be a huge step up.
> 
> Here at work I use a KitchenAid four cup coffee maker (which is pretty good relative to others, all things considered--has an 1100 watt element even though its only a four cup machine) and a KitchenAid blade grinder, and the coffee is still quite drinkable because I start with good fresh beans to begin with. Granted, it's not as good as with my zass and Technivorm or vac pot, but it's still good!


Yes, a whirley-blade grinder is better than nothing, but the Hario Skerton Hand Crank Coffee Mill would be an order of magnitude better and they're under 40 bux. 
 Hario hand crank video
 Hario @ SweetMaria's


----------



## js (Nov 10, 2009)

Nice!

I agree.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 10, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Yes, a whirley-blade grinder is better than nothing, but the Hario Skerton Hand Crank Coffee Mill would be an order of magnitude better and they're under 40 bux.
> Hario hand crank video
> Hario @ SweetMaria's



I had not seen that before. A good friend of mine in New York City uses one of the Zassenhaus grinders, and loves it. I've been in the Baratza Maestro Plus camp for several years.

One thing to consider as we spout off all these various coffee maker expenses is the *cost savings of buying green beans* from Sweet Marias for $6/pound vs. grocery store &/or Dunkin Donuts/Starbucks expenses.

I will warn you though, getting a custom setup like we are talking about will make it nearly impossible to drink any typical retail coffees. When I go on vacation or even a cruise, I take my own roasted beans, Mellita filter cone &/or Bodum mini French Press, electric kettle, and make sure I have a quality bottled water.

BTW, Kwarth, here is another nifty "Pino Pro" electric kettle I just saw at SweetMarias.

I was looking for those resealable plastic coffee bags with the vent, and don't see them anymore at SweetMarias. I'm gonna yell at Tom.

Oh God, YAF (yet another forum to join)


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 10, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> I had not seen that before. A good friend of mine in New York City uses one of the Zassenhaus grinders, and loves it. I've been in the Baratza Maestro Plus camp for several years.
> 
> One thing to consider as we spout off all these various coffee maker expenses is the *cost savings of buying green beans* from Sweet Marias for $6/pound vs. grocery store &/or Dunkin Donuts/Starbucks expenses.
> 
> ...



Hey Lux,
"I will warn you though, getting a custom setup like we are talking about will make it nearly impossible to drink any typical retail coffees."
Truer words were never spoken!!

I just saw that Pino kettle for the first time the other day.

Valved coffee bags


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 11, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Hey Lux,
> "I will warn you though, getting a custom setup like we are talking about will make it nearly impossible to drink any typical retail coffees."
> Truer words were never spoken!!
> 
> ...



Thanks!

Oh here they are at the bottom at SM's. I could have sworn I scrolled all the way down.

You should get that kettle too, then you can do a Kettle Shootout!


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 11, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> You should get that kettle too, then you can do a Kettle Shootout!




you're tempting me!


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 12, 2009)

I found the Pino kettle on the shelves at Fry's Electronics yesterday, along with a small collection of Fenix flashlights. Had to pick up a LD10. 

The Pino looked and felt a little cheaply constructed, so I didn't buy one. Ergonomics also seemed to be 2nd rate, but I'm sure it's at least an ok product since [email protected] SweetMaria's sells it.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 13, 2009)

LOL! So funny you looked for it--and found it! Good assessment. It may be that Tom has not seen the two you have, and/or he may not be one of those "ergonomic" types.

Last week my wife asked me why the hell do we have this [Brevelle] tea kettle here (next to my Mastech 30/20 power supply) on the dining room counter, since we have another electric kettle (a cheap one I take on cruises), and a regular stove kettle.

I tried to explain the practical temperature regulation, the sleek ergonomic design, the pretty lighted functionality, the endless possibilities of enjoying tea and coffee all steeped at the proper temperature. She didn't buy any of my BS for a minute. I suspect the real communication is why the hell do I have a Mastech Power Supply on the dining room counter, below the fine China cabinet.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 13, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> LOL! So funny you looked for it--and found it! Good assessment. It may be that Tom has not seen the two you have, and/or he may not be one of those "ergonomic" types.
> 
> Last week my wife asked me why the hell do we have this [Brevelle] tea kettle here (next to my Mastech 30/20 power supply) on the dining room counter, since we have another electric kettle (a cheap one I take on cruises), and a regular stove kettle.
> 
> I tried to explain the practical temperature regulation, the sleek ergonomic design, the pretty lighted functionality, the endless possibilities of enjoying tea and coffee all steeped at the proper temperature. She didn't buy any of my BS for a minute. I suspect the real communication is why the hell do I have a Mastech Power Supply on the dining room counter, below the fine China cabinet.


I don't know about the power supply, that seems normal to me, it would fit right in here. 

Now to the important point... Whatever we do, we must NOT, under any circumstances, let our respective SWMBO's meet or correspond, lest they compare notes.

Acronym dictionary: SWMBO; She Who Must Be Obeyed :wave:


----------



## saabluster (Nov 14, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Acronym dictionary: SWMBO; She Who Must Be Obeyed :wave:


Speaking of that my wife said Peets was too expensive.:sigh: I tried to explain how much better it is than what we get now and how if I sign up for regular shipments the shipping is half price but she was not impressed. I did however change up how I brew based on what you guys have suggested. I pulsed my grinder(even thought it is a grinder and not a spinning blade) and made those Millita filters fit in there. Finally I used bottled water. The result was astounding. It was unbelievably smooth but still had the fullness of flavor. Thanks a lot guys. I will try to get my hands on some fresh roasted coffee as soon as I can though. :wave:


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 14, 2009)

Just for the experience and out of friendship, I should just roast some and mail it to you. 

I'm half-way through a 10 pound bag of *Costa Rica Lourdes de Naranjo Herbazu* that is quite nice. 

Also have a 10 pound bag I could dip into of *El Salvador La Montanita Pacamara*.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 14, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Just for the experience and out of friendship, I should just roast some and mail it to you.
> 
> I'm half-way through a 10 pound bag of *Costa Rica Lourdes de Naranjo Herbazu* that is quite nice.
> 
> Also have a 10 pound bag I could dip into of *El Salvador La Montanita Pacamara*.



That's a great idea! I was actually thinking the same thing. I need to inventory the beans I've got on hand...


----------



## saabluster (Nov 15, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Just for the experience and out of friendship, I should just roast some and mail it to you.
> 
> I'm half-way through a 10 pound bag of *Costa Rica Lourdes de Naranjo Herbazu* that is quite nice.
> 
> Also have a 10 pound bag I could dip into of *El Salvador La Montanita Pacamara*.


 I assume you are "asking" which one I'd like and, well Lux, beggars can't be choosers. You are one heck a guy with impeccable taste and I'm sure both are outstanding. Thank you!!!

lovecpf


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 16, 2009)

OK, the Costa Rica roasted today went out by Priority Mail. It is a so called "City+" roast, and in a one-way vent bag so the CO2 can escape. Hopefully the USPS won't suspect it is hiding drugs and rip it open, as it emits a most delectable aroma as it is evolving. I use my old Foodsaver to make a heatseal above the ziplock. This is the contents of two batches from my iRoast, about 3 Cups of roasted beans, enough to last several days.

I never use a fresh roasted coffee until it has sit and developed for at least 3-4 days. You will probably get it on Wed/Thursday and will be perfect for use then. 

Like me, most people will assume *real* coffee like this is stronger, and that they must use less. Do NOT follow that thought. Real coffee is not bitter or negative even if made stronger. It does not have more caffeine either. If you are used to typical ground/canned coffee, use a little bit more so you don't have a watered down flavor.

If you can use some bottled spring water, and either pour when you first see/hear the start of an early boil, or after a rolling tea kettle whistle, let water cool down for a few mins. Too hot of water (rolling boil is 212° F) can burn coffee. Perfect temp is 200° F. :thumbsup:

Enjoy. I warn you however, this experience will have a downside when you go back to what you previously thought was coffee.


----------



## ryball (Nov 16, 2009)

AHahhahhaha, like minds gravitate I suppose. Another Sweet Maria's fan here. Tom and Co. are the best!

I got started roasting probably 5 or 6 years ago when my cousin and her husband were in the beginning stages of opening their own coffee house in the Bay Area.

I started roasting with a West Bend air popcorn popper, moved on to an i-Roast which I was running WAY too much once my friends and family found out, and finally had a 4lb. drum made and converted a propane bbq grill into a coffee roaster. I roast in my garage with a huge fan running. My wife loves the way I smell when I come back inside after roasting.

I go back and forth between the Technivorm, a discontinued Swiss Gold single cup drip filter, and the MokaPot for brewing. I need to get me one of these Aeropresses, though.

Grinding duty is handled with a Maestro Plus.

I need to place an order soon as the holidays are coming up. :naughty:


----------



## ryball (Nov 16, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Enjoy. I warn you however, this experience will have a downside when you go back to what you previously thought was coffee.



This. :laughing: Might want to mention grind fineness to compliment your fresh roast. A little suggestion from Tom over at Sweet Maria's - 



> Some comments of fineness: Most folks grind coffee too coarse. In general, you want to grind as fine as possible without allowing sediment through your filter...


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 16, 2009)

Ryball, I'm pretty sure you can still buy those single cup Swiss Gold filters. Here is an Amazon link, with other types on the page if that's not what you meant.

I'm holding out for some better Central American coffees from SM's. That's a nice thing about buying green beans if you find one you really like, you can stock up with 40-50 pounds and it won't go bad.


----------



## ryball (Nov 18, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Ryball, I'm pretty sure you can still buy those single cup Swiss Gold filters. Here is an Amazon link, with other types on the page if that's not what you meant.


Ooh! Good to know. I will be getting some as xmas gifts.



> I'm holding out for some better Central American coffees from SM's. That's a nice thing about buying green beans if you find one you really like, you can stock up with 40-50 pounds and it won't go bad.



I have the exact opposite view.  There are so many good coffee's out there that I never buy more than 2 lbs. of any one unless I am buying for a big roast batch like xmas. I want to try as many different ones as I can.

There are people that say that green coffee does eventually go bad.


----------



## ryball (Nov 18, 2009)

Sweet Maria's order placed! 

I got some of the Yemeni Quishr tea because it looked interesting, 10lbs. of SM's Moka Kadir blend and a bunch of gold foil bags for the big xmas roast, a couple of other misc xmas gifts, and an Aeropress for myself. :laughing:


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 18, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> OK, the Costa Rica roasted today went out by Priority Mail. It is a so called "City+" roast, and in a one-way vent bag so the CO2 can escape. Hopefully the USPS won't suspect it is hiding drugs and rip it open, as it emits a most delectable aroma as it is evolving. I use my old Foodsaver to make a heatseal above the ziplock. This is the contents of two batches from my iRoast, about 3 Cups of roasted beans, enough to last several days.
> 
> I never use a fresh roasted coffee until it has sit and developed for at least 3-4 days. You will probably get it on Wed/Thursday and will be perfect for use then.
> 
> ...



I have discovered for me, the *optimum* time for resting the coffee after the roast varies between 12 and 36 hours depending upon the bean and the roast style.

24 hours rest time is my default, and generally, seven days following that the batch starts to go down hill rapidly. It's really pretty bad two weeks out, comparatively speaking.

Another data point... Generally, with all other things being equal, the i-Roast produces a better cup than the Behmore, but the Behmore will roast almost a pound at a time if desired, and is almost smokeless up to full city +. The Behmore is also quieter than the i-Roast, as is the FreshRoast-8. Overall, the i-Roast does a better job in small batches, and the Fresh Roast8 even better than the i-Roast, but in smaller batches yet. Speaking of Fresh Roast-8....

Hey, Lux, did you see that the Fresh Roast Roaster is evolving? Two new models coming out before Christmas. A model 300 and 500. The 500 looks like something that would perfect for small batch roasts. See below for details. BTW, something going on with the i-Roast as well.




> Coffee Bean Corral Updates....
> ROASTER UPDATES
> 
> Fresh Beans, Inc is working on the new replacement for the Fresh Roast Plus 8 that we have all used over the past 5 to 6 years.
> ...



So with the new doubled capacity of the new FR500 and the complete control of the temp and fan speed... I would predict based on that data that the new FR models will walk all over the i-Roast in every category with the same capacities.  Hang on to your wallets!!!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 18, 2009)

It's interesting about the iRoast-2, which is out of stock also at Sweet Marias. For the heck of it, I looked at their website www.i-roast.com and called them. None of their front line phone people know anything about the iRoast being out of stock. I was put on hold and all of them conferred a small pow-wow and were shocked to see it was out of stock on their own website, Sweet Marias, and Coffee Bean Corral. She claimed their main support purpose was to answer and support some infomercial New Wave portable oven. It was like talking to a bus of bozo's. Went like this:

Lux: Do you know when I will be able to buy the iRoast-2?
Bozo: Do you want me to take your order for one now?

Lux: Your website says you are out of stock.
Bozo: So you don't want to place an order then?

Lux: Do you have them in stock, as your website says they are out of stock?
Bozo: It does?

Lux: Yes. Also, Sweet Marias and Coffee Bean Corral say they are out of stock, with SM's saying backordered until March.
Bozo: Isn't that Sweet Marias a nice website?

Lux: Yes they are. What about the iRoast-2?
Bozo: Well I guess if I took your order, according to Sweet Marias, you wouldn't get it until March.

Lux: *Laughing at the Bozo* So wait....you are the company that sells the iRoast, right? Did I call the wrong number? 
Bozo: Oh Yeah, we sell the iRoast2, but it such a wonderful product that it just sells itself, we never have to do anything.

Lux: *Still laughing* OK, I was hoping to find out why the iRoast2 is not in stock, when it will be back in stock in case I wanted to buy one for a Christmas present, or if you are no longer going to carry it.
Bozo: Were you looking for one for this coming Christmas?

Lux: Yes
Bozo: Have you looked on EBay? _(I swear she said that)_

Lux: Do you have any supervisors I can talk to, or someone who actually knows details about the iRoast?
Bozo: No. We are all here to support the New Wave oven which is selling as a TV Infomercial. Have you seen that?

Lux: No, and I don't care about a microwave oven.
Bozo: Oh no, it's not an microwave oven, but rather a wonderful countertop fast cooking oven. I can tell you all about it.

Lux: I'm sure it's nice, but I'm only calling about the iRoast2 being out of stock.
Bozo: Well it must be backordered or a problem with our manufacturer or something. I would check back in a month or two.

Lux: Too bad we can't find out anything for sure or get one before Christmas, but I guess that's about it then, thanks.
Bozo: Again, I would check with EBay. You never know what can pop up there. Have a nice holiday.​


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 18, 2009)

It is interesting the difference in tastes. I have made coffee with 12 hour rest, 24, & 2 days rested beans. For the beans and roasts I do, there are way richer and more complex flavors with all the beans I have used resting at the 3-4 day window. I don't go beyond 5-6 days unless traveling. But everyone has their own tastes and preferences. 

I have a friend in New York City who will ONLY roast his beans in an iron frying pan, and never goes beyond start of first crack stage (#7 on this page). I hate his roast, and he considers my City/City+ roasts as "Starbucks Burnt." LOL! As a result, we each bring our own roasted beans for overnight visits.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 18, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> It's interesting about the iRoast-2, which is out of stock also at Sweet Marias. For the heck of it, I looked at their website www.i-roast.com and called them. None of their front line phone people know anything about the iRoast being out of stock. I was put on hold and all of them conferred a small pow-wow and were shocked to see it was out of stock on their own website, Sweet Marias, and Coffee Bean Corral. She claimed their main support purpose was to answer and support some infomercial New Wave portable oven. It was like talking to a bus of bozo's. Went like this:
> 
> Lux: Do you know when I will be able to buy the iRoast-2?
> Bozo: Do you want me to take your order for one now?
> ...


I guess they were all bozos on that bus eh?

I have bought every coffee roaster model they've ever made and 2 of the i-Roast (1 i-Roast1 and 1 i-Roast2). The HearthWare Gourmet was the best in my estimation of all the roasting machines they've made to date and it was their first coffee bean roaster.

Hearthware's interest in and involvement with coffee roasting products seems to have been waning slowly over the past many years. Maybe the ownership of the holding company has changed hands?? I'm sure that almost any kitchen electric would appeal to a much larger market than ANY coffee roaster. So if they're in it only for the money, it's not hard to understand them moving away from roaster products. We've gone through two New Wave ovens. They seem to last about a year and then they fail.

Buy a good counter top convection toaster oven like the Breville BOV800XL, and you'll never look back or think about the New Wave again. 

It seems from the Company Name alone that FreshBeans is in it more for the love of the craft. I can't wait to see the new FreshRoast 500!

Both the Fresh Beans and the Hearthware coffee roasters work particularly well on Central and South American beans and bring out the bright and floral varietal characteristics of the best SHB beans better than any other roasters I've used to date.

http://hearthware-home-products.pissedconsumer.com/


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 18, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> It is interesting the difference in tastes. I have made coffee with 12 hour rest, 24, & 2 days rested beans. For the beans and roasts I do, there are way richer and more complex flavors with all the beans I have used resting at the 3-4 day window. I don't go beyond 5-6 days unless traveling. But everyone has their own tastes and preferences.
> 
> I have a friend in New York City who will ONLY roast his beans in an iron frying pan, and never goes beyond start of first crack stage (#7 on this page). I hate his roast, and he considers my City/City+ roasts as "Starbucks Burnt." LOL! As a result, we each bring our own roasted beans for overnight visits.


That is interesting! If he says your roasts are burnt like Starbucks, then what does he say about Starbucks?  

With beans from the Americas, Hawaiian and Jamaican Islands, they generally fair pretty well with a typical light city or "Scandinavian" roast. 

They do well with some darker roasts too.

The light city roast is the hardest to achieve consistently and it displays the best varietal character differences between beans and farms, etc. 

It you roast a little too light, you get thin green grass, if you go a little dark, you mask a lot of varietal character, but if you get it just right, you get all of the richness, fullness, and winey, citrusy, berry, nuttiness, and buttery characters that the bean is capable of producing.

The challenge with the iron skillet is that you have to agitate the beans constantly or you get scorching on one side and unroasted on the other of each bean. It can be done however. Hot air (fluid bed) is generally best for light city.


----------



## DoctaDink (Nov 18, 2009)

STOP IT, you guys! You are making my mouth water, and are going to end up costing me more money than I have to spend on such things. 
Just when I was starting to enjoy my bag of pre-ground StarBucks in my French Press...Now I'm never going to be satisfied until I try roasting and grinding my own...and using an Aeropress. I guess it's kinda like enjoying the wonders of a mini- MagLite....until you get a NiteCore EX10.
Sheesh....another obsession with which to struggle.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 18, 2009)

DoctaDink said:


> STOP IT, you guys! You are making my mouth water, and are going to end up costing me more money than I have to spend on such things.
> Just when I was starting to enjoy my bag of pre-ground StarBucks in my French Press...Now I'm never going to be satisfied until I try roasting and grinding my own...and using an Aeropress. I guess it's kinda like enjoying the wonders of a mini- MagLite....until you get a NiteCore EX10.
> Sheesh....another obsession with which to struggle.



:naughty:Whatever you do, do NOT read the knife threads or the watch threads or the car threads.   _Psst: [You want a FreshRoast 500]_


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 18, 2009)

I'll hold out to see what Tom says about the new FreshRoast models. I'm hooked on the programmability of the iRoast2. I set the main roasting stage longer than I need it and see what time it needs, then reprogram and keep that cycle for the whole bag of 5-10 pounds. 

I don't like to stand there watching the roast and smelling the smoke if I know a setting to have it turn out. I don't know if these new models have that, or how well they do City+, but I agree it looks promising.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 19, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> I'll hold out to see what Tom says about the new FreshRoast models. I'm hooked on the programmability of the iRoast2. I set the main roasting stage longer than I need it and see what time it needs, then reprogram and keep that cycle for the whole bag of 5-10 pounds.
> 
> I don't like to stand there watching the roast and smelling the smoke if I know a setting to have it turn out. I don't know if these new models have that, or how well they do City+, but I agree it looks promising.



Hi Lux,
I'm sure you're aware that the suitability of stage and roast time programs vary considerably with changes in ambient humidity and temperature, not to mention varietal differences in beans. So even if you roast the same bean from day to day, if the humidity or temperature differs from day to day, your roast profiles will need to be different to produce exactly the same roast.

Since I've never actually seen the new FreshRoast products, I can't know for sure, but I've had a couple of the FreshRoast 8's for years and they will do a darker roast than the i-Roast will. So I'm not too concerned about that. Anyway, I'm just offering the info for interest's sake. Caught my interest anyway!
Cheers,
Kevin


----------



## DoctaDink (Nov 19, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> :naughty:Whatever you do, do NOT read the knife threads or the watch threads or the car threads.   _Psst: [You want a FreshRoast 500]_


LOL! Its TOO late, I'm already an evolving knife nut, and could easily get into watches if I'd let myself. I love well crafted, precision tools/items. Especially where form and function are both expertly applied. Eg: firearms, bicycles, photographic equip., etc. 
And, Yes...I DO want a FreshRoast 500! As I get older, and my ability to taste and smell diminishes, I need an extra boost in flavor.But, I'm not sure I have what it takes to recognize the subtleties of coffee that y'all describe. I think that I am in pursuit of the rich smooth flavor that I once enjoyed in cup of coffee that I had at a seaside cantina in Mexico. It was only one cup, and wasn't even repeated at the same place the next day...but I still remember it after ~25 years.


----------



## ryball (Nov 19, 2009)

DoctaDink said:


> STOP IT, you guys! You are making my mouth water, and are going to end up costing me more money than I have to spend on such things.
> Just when I was starting to enjoy my bag of pre-ground StarBucks in my French Press...Now I'm never going to be satisfied until I try roasting and grinding my own...and using an Aeropress. I guess it's kinda like enjoying the wonders of a mini- MagLite....until you get a NiteCore EX10.
> Sheesh....another obsession with which to struggle.



Seriously, your first cup of home roasted, freshly ground, properly prepared coffee will be a life changing experience.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 19, 2009)

ryball said:


> Seriously, your first cup of home roasted, freshly ground, properly prepared coffee will be a life changing experience.



+2!!


----------



## ryball (Nov 19, 2009)

It's funny, this brings me back to the first SUPER heavily bodied African I roasted myself. It was like drinking Guinness for the first time after drinking nothing but light beer my whole life. 

me: "OH, _that's_ what they mean by body."


----------



## DoctaDink (Nov 19, 2009)

I was watching some of the SweetMaria videos, and saw him using an U.V. light to test the coffee. What is he looking for? Is more fluorescence good or bad? Does it have anything to do with Aflatoxin contamination of the beans or just what?


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 19, 2009)

This is a new one to me, but Sweet Maria's says;

RE: Rwanda Kinunu Bourbon
UV also detects any potato-taste in coffee, a problem that can sometimes occur in Rwanda lots.


----------



## saabluster (Nov 19, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> OK, the Costa Rica roasted today went out by Priority Mail. It is a so called "City+" roast, and in a one-way vent bag so the CO2 can escape. Hopefully the USPS won't suspect it is hiding drugs and rip it open, as it emits a most delectable aroma as it is evolving. I use my old Foodsaver to make a heatseal above the ziplock. This is the contents of two batches from my iRoast, about 3 Cups of roasted beans, enough to last several days.
> 
> I never use a fresh roasted coffee until it has sit and developed for at least 3-4 days. You will probably get it on Wed/Thursday and will be perfect for use then.
> 
> ...


Well I received it yesterday and had it brewing in about 5 minutes. It was very professionally packed. I just couldn't help myself Lux. I knew it was supposed to rest longer but I am a weak weak man. I took great pains to see that it was prepared properly. I am going to keep my initial thoughts to myself until I try it two more times. I want to see how the flavor evolves. I also want my pallet to adjust to it. Thanks again Lux!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 19, 2009)

Cool! So you got it on Wed which is only 2 days after I roasted (fast USPS!), and tried some Wed? I won't use it until 3rd, and usually 4th day. I keep rotating a set of 5 numbered small round plastic containers, and always know the day it was roasted.

You can make it weaker if you normally make yours that way. It would be interesting to see what you perceive as taste changes over next couple days. Smell the beans and you can tell differences also. Have others give their opinions at home.


----------



## da.gee (Nov 19, 2009)

Thanks for all the great info here. You've probably cost many of us hundreds of dollars. 

As payback I thought y'all might enjoy an original watercolor/ink drawing I just purchased. I like to support local artists and recently found this piece. Excuse the rapid scan and no mounting.

Sorry about the gesture. In the context of art I hope it will fly here.

It is titled: "*Coffee vs. Tea*".


----------



## saabluster (Nov 28, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Cool! So you got it on Wed which is only 2 days after I roasted (fast USPS!), and tried some Wed? I won't use it until 3rd, and usually 4th day. I keep rotating a set of 5 numbered small round plastic containers, and always know the day it was roasted.
> 
> You can make it weaker if you normally make yours that way. It would be interesting to see what you perceive as taste changes over next couple days. Smell the beans and you can tell differences also. Have others give their opinions at home.



Well I'm sick as dog today and don't have the energy to do much of anything but need to report back on my findings. First off a huge *thank you!* to LuxLuthor for sending me my first bag of freshly roasted coffee. 

Received one bag of "Costa Rica Lourdes de Naranjo Herbazu" on Wednesday the 18th. It was roasted on Monday the 16th and packed in a sealed one-way valve bag that has a clear front to let you see the beautiful beans. Lux's suggestion was to wait 3-4 days before brewing. I am not strong enough to hold myself back so had some brewing a few minutes after it came in the mail on the second day. To be honest I'm am surprised it ever made it to my house because the box it came in emanated the most wondrous smell that I would have thought for sure one of the postal workers would have had an "accident" in transit so they could steal some of the precious cargo. 

My coffee background is based on buying whole beans at Starbucks. Specifically my two favorites are the Ethiopian Sadamo and Sumatra. I am not one who likes all or even most of Starbucks stuff. I am quite picky. I tend to like a medium strength brew. Starbucks in my opinion brews it way too strong. Note that I am not referring to the roast level but the concentration of coffee to water. When brewing the Lux brand coffee I changed nothing about the way I brew other than the recent changes in method suggested here such as pulsing the grinder which I had already begun to incorporate. This was a city+ roast if I remember right and is darker than most anything else I have ever had.

Day 2 after roast- My first thoughts on opening the box were that it had an incredible aroma. The strange thing is that when I opened the bag I noticed a second very distinct odor coming from the beans. It was an oily/smoky smell that stood apart from the normal sweet coffee smell most everyone experiences when entering a coffee shop. It was not a bad smell at all just something I had never experienced before. On brewing I found it to have a very smoky flavor with little body. What flavor was there was good but I kept saying to myself that it seemed like there was only one low note being played with none of the higher or mid notes I have experienced from other coffees. I kept in mind that my palet may not have been used to that kind of roast and that I had not let it rest as long as I was told to. My sister and I tested it together every day and came to the same conclusion. It was good, very good in fact, but not as good as our Starbucks favorite. The Ethiopian Sadamo is a 9 whereas the Lux on day 2 was maybe an 8.

Day three post-roast- Day three showed a marked improvement in the flavor of the coffee. I realized then Lux might have known what he was talking about when he said to rest the coffee. Still no high notes to the coffee but some more in the middle. I noticed a reduction in the two different smells I had experienced the day before with the sweet smell starting to dominate. Starbucks 9 Lux 9

Day four- Even better still. Lux was right to let this coffee rest this long. The separate smell in the bag was virtually gone now replaced by just the sweet smells of fresh coffee. Very nice in the bag. I started to notice a buttery taste that was wonderful. Still no high notes such as the citrus I taste in my other coffee but the other flavors were so smooth and rich that it made for an unusual experience. I have never had a cup like this one before. Starbucks9 Luxorific brand 9.3

Day five- Due my normal hectic Saturday schedule I was unable to try it.

Day six- The coffee had definitely started heading down hill. It started to have that "old" taste to it. Although I was not able to have it on the prior day judging by the sixth day it would seem it peeked on day four. Lux you couldn't have been more right. To those who espouse a different rest time may I say that at least for _that_ coffee roasted _that_ way four days was spot on. 

Day seven- Well since the coffee was not at its peak any longer I decided to experiment. I mixed the Lux brand with a Starbucks "Thanksgiving" which I got since they had it marked down. Both the Starbucks and the Lux were past their prime. The result of the mix was amazing. They seemed to compliment one another very well. This ended my experience with the Lux coffee as I was now out of beans.

In the end I suppose I was a little let down as I was expecting to have a flavor orgasm with the fresh roasted coffee when "all" I got was the best cup of coffee I had ever had. It was very good and a learning experience that could never be had at a Starbucks. Thank you so much for you generosity and for the experience Lux!


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 28, 2009)

Seems like what might be a good experience for you would be a lighter roast of a Central/South American bean. I will pick something along that line and roast some up for you. Can you PM me your address please?


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 28, 2009)

da.gee said:


> Thanks for all the great info here. You've probably cost many of us hundreds of dollars.
> 
> As payback I thought y'all might enjoy an original watercolor/ink drawing I just purchased. I like to support local artists and recently found this piece. Excuse the rapid scan and no mounting.
> 
> ...



This is a great picture!
Thanks!


----------



## saabluster (Nov 28, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Seems like what might be a good experience for you would be a lighter roast of a Central/South American bean. I will pick something along that line and roast some up for you. Can you PM me your address please?


Well I don't know what I ever did to deserve all this coffee but I will PM you in a sec. :thanks:


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks for taking the time to write your feedback.

This is how it goes with coffee. 

Different continents, different countries, different locations within a country, different farms within that location, different years for a farm, different lots within a year all have effects on the variety and complexity of the different notes.

Then there is the quality and age of the green bean source you get, the changing conditions of your environmental conditions/temps when you roast from one day to the next, then your preference with dark, medium, light roasts, resting time after roasting, grind method, brewing method, etc. Fortunately, Tom at SweetMarias gives pretty good guidelines on how to roast a given coffee.

Eventually over many months/years, most people will migrate to a few continents/countries for most of their purchases. I've been in a Central American groove for last few years. If you blend combinations of beans together, then all the deck of cards are tossed in the air, but it can be very pleasing.

There are so many variables, in some ways it is like creating a work of art every day you make it. For this Costa Rican (& most Central Americans), I use my 4-5 small tupperware containers with numbered lids just resting loosely on top for breathing, so I am always drinking in that peak 4-5 day post-roasting.

One of the reasons I personally buy at least 5 pounds at a time is it takes a number of batches to find the "zone" for any one bean. 

If you can repeat the same process with kwkarth's beans, I'm sure it will be a whole other experience.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 29, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Thanks for taking the time to write your feedback.
> 
> This is how it goes with coffee.
> 
> ...


Well said! So true, variety is the spice of life. Just about the time I find my favorite variety of coffee, it the end of the crop year, and the crop from the following year sucks and I have to start my search all over again!! :twothumbs I rarely buy more than 5 lbs. at a time for the same reasons.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 29, 2009)

I'm relying on Tom's reviews and scores more and more, but occasionally I'll try a new one, like it so much....and quickly order 20 pounds before it runs out. With proper storage, they say green beans can last for several years. I think the longest I went so far is about 18 months. I transfer them to the Sweet Maria's cotton bags that hold 5 pounds.


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 30, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> I'm relying on Tom's reviews and scores more and more, but occasionally I'll try a new one, like it so much....and quickly order 20 pounds before it runs out. With proper storage, they say green beans can last for several years. I think the longest I went so far is about 18 months. I transfer them to the Sweet Maria's cotton bags that hold 5 pounds.


I've kept stock for about 4-5 years, no problem. I keep the coffee in whatever bags it comes in, burlap, poly, etc. The room stays 60-70 year around, and on rare occasions drops to 40F at the coldest in winter. The coffee is still great when roasted up!


----------



## saabluster (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm curious if either of you know why it lasts so long pre-roasting but after roast it declines so quickly. Very strange that.:thinking:


----------



## kwkarth (Nov 30, 2009)

saabluster said:


> I'm curious if either of you know why it lasts so long pre-roasting but after roast it declines so quickly. Very strange that.:thinking:



Actually, it makes quite a bit of sense when you look at it more closely.
Green beans are as nature intended them to be self preserving, you know, to further the species of the coffee tree. When you roast a coffee bean you are subjecting the coffee bean to a pyrolytic process whereby you unleash over 700 flavors and aromatic compounds that are subject to oxidation. You've destroyed the matrix of the bean that protected the compounds in the bean. The process of oxidation continues after the roast process until all of those yummy oils and aromatics become fully oxidized and rancid. The trick is to enjoy the flavor profile while it's still on the good side of the taste spectrum as the bean continues to oxidize. You have about 1 to 2 weeks max.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 30, 2009)

saabluster said:


> I'm curious if either of you know why it lasts so long pre-roasting but after roast it declines so quickly. Very strange that.:thinking:



This is the best description of it from a page at Sweet Marias here.



> ...green coffee is a DRIED SEED, extremely dense (try biting a green bean with 11% moisture content grown at 5500 feet -you will break a tooth) chemically stable, not porous, and incredibly impervious when you compare it to its roasted form. Yes, its like other dried seeds or beans a person might store in their pantry...



Then combined with changes that occur with roasting from here.



> ...Depending on the origin and method of storage, coffee flavor peaks from 24 hours to 7 days after roasting.[2] Subsequently, flavor declines at a rate which depends on origin and storage. The flavor of ground coffee deteriorates much faster.
> 
> Many factors cause the decline of flavor after roasting, including the oxidation of oils and other compounds exposed to atmospheric oxygen after roasting damages bean cell wall integrity, and the evaporation of flavor-active volatile compounds. Roasting coffee beans produces a significant amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) gas; this CO2 preserves freshness to the extent that it excludes atmospheric oxygen. Other means of extending freshness such as freezing roasted beans and displacing surrounding air with an inert gas have unproven success...


----------



## kwkarth (Dec 1, 2009)

My best success at extending the shelf life of roasted coffee beans is to store them in a vacuum.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Dec 1, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> My best success at extending the shelf life of roasted coffee beans is to store them in a vacuum.



So you gave up the strategy of hiding them under the kitty litter?


----------



## kwkarth (Dec 1, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> So you gave up the strategy of hiding them under the kitty litter?


Gack!:sick2fsthhhht 

Oh man, the images that brings up!!!
Does it work? :thinking:


----------



## kwkarth (Dec 1, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> This is the best description of it from a page at Sweet Marias here.
> 
> 
> 
> Then combined with changes that occur with roasting from here.



Wow! That's a good article from Sweet Marias on Green coffee bean aging. 

Thanks Lux!


----------



## saabluster (Dec 1, 2009)

Wow! Thanks guys. I wonder why roasted nuts don't get rancid fast.:thinking:


----------



## kwkarth (Dec 1, 2009)

saabluster said:


> Wow! Thanks guys. I wonder why roasted nuts don't get rancid fast.:thinking:



I roast hazelnuts too and as wonderful as they are, they seem to be more likely to turn rancid before they're roasted rather than after. Go figure??:thinking:

I think coffee roasting is a much more complex process, chemically.


----------



## DoctaDink (Dec 1, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> So you gave up the strategy of hiding them under the kitty litter?


 
Hmmm....does that give it a Kopi Luwak flavor? :thinking:


----------



## kwkarth (Dec 1, 2009)

DoctaDink said:


> Hmmm....does that give it a Kopi Luwak flavor? :thinking:



Hey, maybe that's it!!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Dec 2, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> I roast hazelnuts too and as wonderful as they are, they seem to be more likely to turn rancid before they're roasted rather than after. Go figure??:thinking:
> 
> I think coffee roasting is a much more complex process, chemically.



I think most roasted nuts are removed from their shell, but also likely have more moisture, and don't have as hard and protective of a structure as coffee beans. Likewise, most bags of dry uncooked beans, corn, grains, (split) peas, etc. can sit on shelves for years.


----------



## ryball (Dec 2, 2009)

Just roasted up some OLD Bolivian organic peaberry de Montana the other day. Not as I remembered it, but still a VERY nice cup through my new Aeropress.


----------



## kwkarth (Dec 12, 2009)

Hey Saabluster, did you get that coffee yet? I hope the post office didn't loose it.
kevin


----------



## LuxLuthor (Dec 12, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Hey Saabluster, did you get that coffee yet? I hope the post office didn't *loose *it.
> kevin



[RANT]...lose...[/RANT]

In any case, it takes Juan Valdez some time to get the coffee out to Saabluster's remote location.





​


----------



## BVH (Dec 12, 2009)

Jeezeeeeeee....you guys still talking about coffee???

All I'm drinking now is Kauai Coffee.com Chocolate Macadamia Nut.....Gaud, I love that stuff! And my Krupps 16 year-old drip and steamer combo is still going strong. Best thing I ever did for it was to buy the gold filter. Man, think of all the filter's I saved.....I'm doing my part to go green...


----------



## kwkarth (Dec 14, 2009)

Well. to chemical odor from that latest hot water pot I bought at Costco came back. I tried really hard to make it go away again. No matter what I do it seems to be back to stay, so back it goes to Costco!


----------



## saabluster (Dec 22, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Hey Saabluster, did you get that coffee yet? I hope the post office didn't loose it.
> kevin


 Oh my goodness! I did not realize you had posted back in here. Sorry. I just finished it up this last week. Unfortunately I was not able to do as methodical testing day to day like I did with Lux's roast. I have no idea if this makes a difference or not but the bag burst open in the box on the trip over. It was very generously packed. Thanks. It was way lighter than the Lux brand and I did notice that it had more flavors going on than Lux's. That said it was hard for me to pick out anything distinctive among it all as there were _too_ many flavors. It was a good coffee but I still did not "go". I did not personally think it was better than my current Starbucks favorite Ethiopia Sidamo. It was better than most anything else they carry though. The thing I was most impressed with was how long it held up. I think I finished it up on the 12th day after it was roasted and it was almost as good the last day as it was on the 4th day which was when I received and brewed it. Remarkable! 

Well thank you both again for the wonderful experience! If nothing else you have made a difference in the way I make coffee and put a teaching on me. Thanks!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Dec 22, 2009)

If it burst open, then perhaps he did not use a bag with the vent which is required since the beans give off fair amount of CO2 & other gases as it develops?

Yeah, if you like Ethiopian coffees, then you and I have different tastes. I tried hard to enjoy their coffee...too flowery. Love Kenyan coffees though. That's all a part of the process sifting through what the world has to offer and how you like your roast.

Unless Starbucks has changed something, they generally did not have quality that was remotely close to fresh roasted beans from Sweet Marias, plus SB's let their bags sit on the shelf after roasting for God knows how long which I consider a sacrilege. It's why it has been such a humiliation that McDonalds gourmet coffee was preferred over Starbucks in blind taste tests.

The only sealed in a bag coffee I found decent for the first 4-6 days after receipt was Peet's Major ****ason's brand.


----------



## kwkarth (Dec 22, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> If it burst open, then perhaps he did not use a bag with the vent which is required since the beans give off fair amount of CO2 & other gases as it develops?
> 
> Yeah, if you like Ethiopian coffees, then you and I have different tastes. I tried hard to enjoy their coffee...too flowery. Love Kenyan coffees though. That's all a part of the process sifting through what the world has to offer and how you like your roast.
> 
> ...



As a matter of fact, I did use a Sweet Marias gold foil zip lock bag with one way valve. PO must have crushed the package.


----------



## saabluster (Dec 23, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> As a matter of fact, I did use a Sweet Marias gold foil zip lock bag with one way valve. PO must have crushed the package.


Yeah must have. I think it was the exact same bag as what Lux used.



LuxLuthor said:


> Unless Starbucks has changed something, they generally did not have quality that was remotely close to fresh roasted beans from Sweet Marias, plus SB's let their bags sit on the shelf after roasting for God knows how long which I consider a sacrilege. It's why it has been such a humiliation that McDonalds gourmet coffee was preferred over Starbucks in blind taste tests.
> 
> The only sealed in a bag coffee I found decent for the first 4-6 days after receipt was Peet's Major ****ason's brand.



That test between SB's and Mckky D's was an absolute crock. First off most people have never had anything but McDonald's coffee so that is what tastes "right" to them. Secondly they only used one kind of coffee from SB's! One! I don't like most or even half of the coffees SB's sell but you just can't take one kind and make it seem that that *is* Starbucks coffee. Surely you don't like every kind of coffee SM sells right? Would you say SM's was no good since one of their lines was "bad"? Their logic, or lack thereof, is just mind blowing. 

I sure wish I could get the green beans of the Ethiopia Sidamo. I don't doubt one second what you guys have said about how outstanding the fresh roasted is but I did expect it to be better than what I tried from both of you. In the end I think it will be a matter of finding the bean with the flavors that make _my _mouth water so and fresh roasting _those_. I have certainly learned more about coffee since I entered this thread than I ever had before and that is thanks to you guys.lovecpfThanks!


----------



## ryball (Dec 23, 2009)

In news to make me cry, I just set 2.5lbs. of SM's Moka Kadir blend on fire this weekend. 

I fired up the drum roaster for xmas duty and while on my second batch, my neighbor came over to see what I was doing... right as 2nd crack was starting. blah, blah, blah, and poof, fire. :mecry:


----------



## kwkarth (Dec 23, 2009)

ryball said:


> In news to make me cry, I just set 2.5lbs. of SM's Moka Kadir blend on fire this weekend.
> 
> I fired up the drum roaster for xmas duty and while on my second batch, my neighbor came over to see what I was doing... right as 2nd crack was starting. blah, blah, blah, and poof, fire. :mecry:


Oh man, what a bummer! What kind of roaster?


----------



## da.gee (Dec 23, 2009)

ryball said:


> In news to make me cry, I just set 2.5lbs. of SM's Moka Kadir blend on fire this weekend.
> 
> I fired up the drum roaster for xmas duty and while on my second batch, my neighbor came over to see what I was doing... right as 2nd crack was starting. blah, blah, blah, and poof, fire. :mecry:



Would that be a city roast?


----------



## kwkarth (Dec 23, 2009)

da.gee said:


> Would that be a city roast?



Just a wee bit darker than that.


----------



## kwkarth (Dec 23, 2009)

saabluster said:


> Yeah must have. I think it was the exact same bag as what Lux used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Saabluster,
I'm so sorry the beans didn't make it to you intact. So much for the post office and their ability to successfully ship some roasted coffee without smashing the package to smithereens. I'm sorry, but it must take a moron or a nasty person to do such damage to a simple Priority Mail package in the Post Office. Either way, they do not deserve the employment they enjoy.


----------



## DoctaDink (Dec 23, 2009)

saabluster said:


> I have certainly learned more about coffee since I entered this thread than I ever had before and that is thanks to you guys.lovecpfThanks!


Ditto


----------



## saabluster (Dec 23, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Saabluster,
> I'm so sorry the beans didn't make it to you intact. So much for the post office and their ability to successfully ship some roasted coffee without smashing the package to smithereens. I'm sorry, but it must take a moron or a nasty person to do such damage to a simple Priority Mail package in the Post Office. Either way, they do not deserve the employment they enjoy.


No biggie Kev. Not your fault. It was interesting to see the difference between your beans and Lux's. Yours were dry looking while his had an oily layer on them. I assume this must be a difference from the different roast levels?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Dec 23, 2009)

saabluster said:


> No biggie Kev. Not your fault. It was interesting to see the difference between your beans and Lux's. Yours were dry looking while his had an oily layer on them. I assume this must be a difference from the different roast levels?



I lather mine in suntan oil to give you fantasies of being on a Carribean beach while sipping some Jo. 

Another thought since reportedly smugglers ship drugs in coffee grounds to throw off scent dogs, maybe the P.O. decided to chop into Kev's beans looking for suspicious things!!!

That's true about wide variations on beans from any source, including SB's. That study was most likely not objective, but SB's sales have been dropping, and franchises closing commensurate with their declining quality control, prices, over-expansion, and declining brand reputation.

Speaking of Ethiopian Sidamo, there are green beans for sale at SM's here. Maybe I'll grab some to see what you are raving about. Tom gives this batch a damn high cupping score also.

Edit: Just scored 10#'s


----------



## ryball (Dec 29, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Oh man, what a bummer! What kind of roaster?



It's a 4lb drum I had made for a gas bbq grill.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 6, 2010)

ryball said:


> It's a 4lb drum I had made for a gas bbq grill.



Wow! That sounds pretty cool!


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 6, 2010)

I have to report more coffee changes in our household.

I made a trip to a local SurLaTable to look at Shun / Bob Kramer knives, thinking there might be some deals to be had...

Long story short, after looking at the Kramer knives, my attention turned to the plethora of single cup coffee brewing machines. I have been reading up on Tassimo, Keurig, Saeco, and Nespresso creations.

After looking I was offered a cup of espresso from a Nespresso CitiZ machine. I was shocked. I had picked a rather lightly roasted coffee which if fresh, should have exhibited a bouquet of varietal aromas and flavors. What I expected was characteristic staleness of over roasted coffee.

What I experienced was quite a revelation and a surprise!

For a few years, I've had a rather fancy espresso machine at home, which cost 4 times what this little CitiZ machine cost. I've fed my monster espresso machine, with all its double boilers, dials and gauges, the best fresh roasted and ground coffee I could manage to produce and ALWAYS had been less than completely satisfied with the results.

Here from this little CitiZ Nespresso machine in the store, from a sealed pre-ground capsule, roasted over six months earlier, I was holding in my hand, and under my nose, and before my eyes, as near perfect a demitasse of espresso as I've ever had the pleasure of tasting, smelling, and seeing. The aroma! The taste! The crema! 

How can this be? My coffee world was collapsing! I tried another, and another. Different varieties and blends, which tasted pretty much as they were described. No prep, no process, no cleanup. Little cost. How can this be?

I left the store with a CitiZ+Milk model in hand.

Somehow, these Nestle guys have found a way to produce consistent and exemplary results in espresso!

When home, I tried the milk frothing attachment and it worked amazingly well too! 

So my coffee world has been turned upside down. I've given my big espresso machine to one of our daughters and her husband.

I will report more as the honeymoon wears off. 

http://www1.nespresso.com/precom/n_home_us_en.html


----------



## DoctaDink (Jan 6, 2010)

Can it be? Just when I was gearing up to become a coffee snob...now I've got to toss out of the esoterica and buy a machine that uses coffee capsules...eek.

Keep us up to date with your new adventure.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 7, 2010)

kwkarth said:


> Here from this little CitiZ Nespresso machine in the store, from a sealed pre-ground capsule, roasted over six months earlier, I was holding in my hand, and under my nose, and before my eyes, as near perfect a demitasse of espresso as I've ever had the pleasure of tasting, smelling, and seeing. The aroma! The taste! The crema!
> 
> How can this be? My coffee world was collapsing! I tried another, and another. Different varieties and blends, which tasted pretty much as they were described. No prep, no process, no cleanup. Little cost. How can this be?
> 
> ...



That does look nice. You have to get locked into using their capsules I assume though. Let's see Amazon sells this with free shipping for $309 here.

I registered at their site which seems to be the only way I could see their coffee capsule lists. Wonder what is in that "Welcome Offer @ $110 which if you select it says 200 caps. 2-Day shipping seems to stay @ $6.95 even if you order 1,000 caps

Figure 2+ cups per day....that's about $500/yr. I never really got involved with expresso, but I know it can add up with expenses a lot faster than regular Sweet Maria home roasting setup coffee. Hmmmm....I feel like a fish on the hook....fighting.


----------



## DoctaDink (Jan 7, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Hmmmm....I feel like a fish on the hook....fighting.



Yeah, I know what you mean...but I feel like a fish on a multi-treble hook lure. Flashlights...Coffee...Knives...Photography...Pens...Guns...etc.


----------



## bigdukesix (Jan 7, 2010)

Maxwell House Special Delivery 1.4 oz thru an office type drip brewer


----------



## ryball (Jan 7, 2010)

kwkarth said:


> Wow! That sounds pretty cool!



My apologies in advance for anyone that this may coerce to go over the deep end, but...

http://www.rkdrums.com/index.htm


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 7, 2010)

ryball said:


> My apologies in advance for anyone that this may coerce to go over the deep end, but...
> 
> http://www.rkdrums.com/index.htm




Dead Link for me


----------



## DoctaDink (Jan 7, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Dead Link for me


Wierd... It worked for me earlier today, but now I can't get it to load.


----------



## DoctaDink (Jan 7, 2010)

Hmmm....the link now works.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 8, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> That does look nice. You have to get locked into using their capsules I assume though. Let's see Amazon sells this with free shipping for $309 here.
> 
> I registered at their site which seems to be the only way I could see their coffee capsule lists. Wonder what is in that "Welcome Offer @ $110 which if you select it says 200 caps. 2-Day shipping seems to stay @ $6.95 even if you order 1,000 caps
> 
> Figure 2+ cups per day....that's about $500/yr. I never really got involved with expresso, but I know it can add up with expenses a lot faster than regular Sweet Maria home roasting setup coffee. Hmmmm....I feel like a fish on the hook....fighting.



I hope to receive the welcome offer tomorrow. I ordered it yesterday. 110 bux gets you 220/230 shots, plus a nice presentation / storage case for coffee. Comes with samples of all of their coffee blends/varieties. I bought my machine Monday, ordered several replacement "sleeves" (ten espresso/lungo capsules in each sleeve) of coffee that evening. The coffee arrived on Wednesday afternoon, before we had consumed the 16 capsules that came with the machine. The CitiZ&Milk also comes with a $50 coupon which has to be filled out and mailed in to redeem.

All of their coffees have merit and cover a wide range of roast profiles, blends, and varieties. It's hard to imagine needing more variety than this, particularly when considering the additional permutations offered by the all the frothy thingies one can concoct. 

Warning: This thing is so easy to use and clean up after, and makes such a fantastic quality finished product, that you will receive no end of complements, but, you will no longer be able to take any credit for your skills as a roaster, blender, grinder, or barista, because it's all done for you by Nespresso. :twothumbs


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm used to drinking double, triple, and quad shots, and each shot costs $0.55 or $0.62 each, but that's still quite a bit less expensive than the local coffee house, and I dare say, much better quality.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 8, 2010)

My fish strength is wearing down.

Do you use the milk foamer every time, or is that just for making cappuccino? It sounds like it makes a wonderful crema in the expresso alone. 

When you say 2/3/4 shots ...is the caffeine buzz about the same as one of our typical coffee cups? I'd be having a seizure with 4 cups of my coffee. I know they have decaf, but that seems heretical.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 8, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> My fish strength is wearing down.
> 
> Do you use the milk foamer every time, or is that just for making cappuccino? It sounds like it makes a wonderful crema in the expresso alone.
> 
> When you say 2/3/4 shots ...is the caffeine buzz about the same as one of our typical coffee cups? I'd be having a seizure with 4 cups of my coffee. I know they have decaf, but that seems heretical.



I mostly like my coffee black, including the espresso. The crema lasts the whole drink through. It's quite remarkable in that respect.

The milk frother/foamer works so amazingly well, I plan to use it rather more than I ever have before. To make a sweet drink I dump a spoon of xylitol, sugar, or maple syrup in with the milk before I foam it. It comes out perfectly and the froth is so substantial, a spoon almost stands up in it.

Awesome desert drink. I have only begun to experiment!! :naughty:

A light rinse out with hot water and towel dry is all it takes to clean up the frother. Couldn't be easier, about ten seconds!

Yes, 3 shots is about the same jolt as one of my cups of coffee.

Williams Sonoma has a nice little demo video of the CitiZ.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 8, 2010)

You think that Amazon link is about the best deal?


----------



## ryball (Jan 8, 2010)

Are you thinking about trying to make your own coffee pods, yet?


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 8, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> You think that Amazon link is about the best deal?



Seems like one of the better prices I've seen, yes. There are exclusive combo deals that W-S has, for example, that you can't get elsewhere, but as long as Amazon has the config/model you want, goforit!!


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 8, 2010)

ryball said:


> Are you thinking about trying to make your own coffee pods, yet?



Not a chance! If I wanted to mess with that stuff, I would have gone the K-cup route, but then I would not have been able to make espresso, and I would not have had ANY of the convenience or quality offered by the Nespresso method.

If I ever want a cup of regular coffee, I will still continue to use my single cup Aero-press method with my own fresh roasted coffee. Still the best cuppa jo in this town! 

Espresso/cappuccino is a different story altogether!!


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 8, 2010)

ryball said:


> My apologies in advance for anyone that this may coerce to go over the deep end, but...
> 
> http://www.rkdrums.com/index.htm



This is EXTREMELY tempting if I ever need to roast this sort of quantity/batch size. Maybe I should start my own coffee shop here in PDX??

I could sell my own drum roasted coffee and have a Nespresso boutique as well.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 8, 2010)

kwkarth said:


> This is EXTREMELY tempting if I ever need to roast this sort of quantity/batch size. Maybe I should start my own coffee shop here in PDX??
> 
> I could sell my own drum roasted coffee and have a Nespresso boutique as well.



That drum seems geared to retail/restaurant/commercial operations.

I have no doubt for me personally that moving from a home hobby/enthusiast into a business/botique would take the enjoyment out of my beloved coffee experience.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 8, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> That does look nice. You have to get locked into using their capsules I assume though. Let's see Amazon sells this with free shipping for $309 here.
> 
> I registered at their site which seems to be the only way I could see their coffee capsule lists. Wonder what is in that "Welcome Offer @ $110 which if you select it says 200 caps. 2-Day shipping seems to stay @ $6.95 even if you order 1,000 caps
> 
> Figure 2+ cups per day....that's about $500/yr. I never really got involved with expresso, but I know it can add up with expenses a lot faster than regular Sweet Maria home roasting setup coffee. Hmmmm....I feel like a fish on the hook....fighting.



The "welcome" kit arrived early this afternoon. 20 sleeves of coffee, a very nice coffee book and the presentation case with space for 36 capsules of coffee, with a variety guide inside the lid. Nice.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 8, 2010)

kwkarth said:


> The "welcome" kit arrived early this afternoon. 20 sleeves of coffee, a very nice coffee book and the presentation case with space for 36 capsules of coffee, with a variety guide inside the lid. Nice.



So it is 200 "pops" then? What amounts of which ones do they include?

I should probably just get this over with. LOL!

Oh, and what are you using the Milk frother for at this point...just Cappuccino?


----------



## jchoo (Jan 8, 2010)

Aeropress.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 8, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> So it is 200 "pops" then? What amounts of which ones do they include?
> 
> I should probably just get this over with. LOL!
> 
> Oh, and what are you using the Milk frother for at this point...just Cappuccino?



Yup, 200 yummi pops.

20 Ristretto
10 Arpeggio
10 Roma
10 Livanto
10 Cappriccio
10 Volluto
10 Cosi
20 Indriyia
20 Rosabaya
20 Dulsão

10 Fortissio Lungo
10 Vivalto Lungo
10 Finezzo Lungo

10 Decaffianato Lungo
10 Decaffianatto Intenso
10 Decaffianatto

Yes, you should just get this over with!! 

Milk frother: frothing/heating milk at this point, but much more fun to come.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 9, 2010)

OK, I've been netted. Got that welcome + 20 of the Singatoba & 10 each of the Variations, which gives me some of everything. What kind of milk do you use in that frother?


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 9, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> OK, I've been netted. Got that welcome + 20 of the Singatoba & 10 each of the Variations, which gives me some of everything. What kind of milk do you use in that frother?



We've just used regular 2% and whole milk so far, but we talked about trying half & half for grins. We'll probably pick some up tomorrow.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 9, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> OK, I've been netted. Got that welcome + 20 of the Singatoba & 10 each of the Variations, which gives me some of everything. What kind of milk do you use in that frother?



I think you'll be delighted.

Enjoy!! We'll have to compare notes on the Gran Crus!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 9, 2010)

We do have fun together!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 9, 2010)

Which yummy pop would you recommend making first for the maximum appreciation "KaPow" ??? 

Also, I should say that generally I prefer my coffee with some half and half cream + sugar, but make exceptions when tasting a new coffee bean or tea.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 9, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Which yummy pop would you recommend making first for the maximum appreciation "KaPow" ???
> 
> Also, I should say that generally I prefer my coffee with some half and half cream + sugar, but make exceptions when tasting a new coffee bean or tea.



Based upon what you've said previously about your tastes in coffee, I would say that Ristretto would be ideal for a first sampling. 

Nespresso seems to classify their roasts/blends by "Intensity," a categorization that was new to me. The "intensity" classification seems to correlate somewhat to roast darkness.

Nepresso rates their Ristretto as a 10 on a 1-10 scale for "Intensity." After having sampled all of their varieties several times, I concur 100%.

I find it a very aromatic and flavorful cup that stands up, not only well on its own, but also exceptionally well with cream and sugar.

I normally like my both coffee and espresso roasted on the light side, served straight up (black.) That said, the sweetened & frothed milk blow me away. It's almost too good. The texture, the taste, the temperature, all perfect, IMHO. The Ristretto is one of the very best when served with cream & sugar, especially when warmed and frothed in the aerocinno.

I suspect you will also enjoy the Indriya and Singatoba. Who knows, you may even take an occasional shine to some of the lighter roasts as well. One of my favorites is the Rosabaya. I pretty much like some characteristic of every one of the varieties.

Cheers!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 9, 2010)

kwkarth said:


> Based upon what you've said previously about your tastes in coffee, I would say that Ristretto would be ideal for a first sampling.
> 
> Nespresso seems to classify their roasts/blends by "Intensity," a categorization that was new to me. The "intensity" classification seems to correlate somewhat to roast darkness.
> 
> ...



That is interesting they created their own Intensity scale. Now I'm really looking forward to this. Seemed like a great B-Day present for my wife too. The best presents for family members are ones that you can share together. LOL!

How do you use the milk/creamer with sugar? Do you put sugar into the milk and it heats it and whips it or something? Then I assume you spoon it over the 'Spresso, or do you stir it in?


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 9, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> That is interesting they created their own Intensity scale. Now I'm really looking forward to this. Seemed like a great B-Day present for my wife too. The best presents for family members are ones that you can share together. LOL!
> 
> How do you use the milk/creamer with sugar? Do you put sugar into the milk and it heats it and whips it or something? Then I assume you spoon it over the 'Spresso, or do you stir it in?



I've tried using the aeroccino a couple of different ways. So far, the method that works best for me is to pour in the cold milk, add the sweetener, close the lid, and push the button. The light goes out in about a minute and it's all done.

I pour/spoon the hot, sweet foam into the cappuccino cup/glass, and then pull the shot(s) into the cup. All done, enjoy!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 10, 2010)

kwkarth said:


> ... the hot, sweet foam....


 
We are talking about espresso still, right? :devil:

Do you just use sugar? What goes on in that milk chamber? Is it like a heated chamber with a rotary blade, or a more traditional steam rod that has to be cleaned?


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 10, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> We are talking about espresso still, right? :devil:


No comment



LuxLuthor said:


> Do you just use sugar?


Any sweetener or flavor syrup should work equally well. I've used sugar, xylitol, and maple syrup so far.



LuxLuthor said:


> What goes on in that milk chamber? Is it like a heated chamber with a rotary blade, or a more traditional steam rod that has to be cleaned?


It is a heated, thermostatically controlled, completely sealed chamber using a magnetically suspended and driven agitator or frother. Both are supplied. You use one or the other depending upon if you just want to stir or you want to whip. Oh, oh, there's another kinky reference...  The agitators store underneath the deck of the CitiZ platform.

Very simple and ingenious design, making it super easy to clean.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 10, 2010)

OK, sounds very well designed. I should have mine from Amazon + the Pops by Wed.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 13, 2010)

Oh this is every bit as great as you described it. Got the machine today, and fortunately it comes with a 16 pop sleeve, as the Club motherlode isn't coming until tomorrow. Just seeing how simple and well designed it is blows me away.

That milk frother works incredibly well. Just about ready to sample some pops. I have to get myself setup so I don't have a bunch of distractions. Part of my Zen of Coffee approach.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 13, 2010)

Well I had a religious awakening over this little Nespresso machine. My wife and I just blew through 8 of the 16 pops that came with it (5 for me--so I have a pretty good buzz going on). Tried all the variations of espresso, capaccino, late, lungo. Amazing how well that milker mixes, heats, and froths a tsp of sugar thrown into the milk.

One suggestion I found a couple years ago is this particular King Arthur Flour mixture of Vietnamese cinnamon & fine grain sugar in a little shaker. Not only does this make the best Cinnamon Toast you ever had, but put a couple shakes on top of the foam, and you are teleported to LaLa Land.

Great Great suggestion!


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 13, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Well I had a religious awakening over this little Nespresso machine. My wife and I just blew through 8 of the 16 pops that came with it (5 for me--so I have a pretty good buzz going on). Tried all the variations of espresso, capaccino, late, lungo. Amazing how well that milker mixes, heats, and froths a tsp of sugar thrown into the milk.
> 
> One suggestion I found a couple years ago is this particular King Arthur Flour mixture of Vietnamese cinnamon & fine grain sugar in a little shaker. Not only does this make the best Cinnamon Toast you ever had, but put a couple shakes on top of the foam, and you are teleported to LaLa Land.
> 
> Great Great suggestion!


Glad you like it Lux! I'll have to try that King Arthur recipe! They should package the machine with the "Welcome Kit" because that's how many samples you need to go through before the newness wears off and you can get down to the business of enjoying the coffee!

Cheers!


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 13, 2010)

BTW, after further evaluation, I would guess that probably 2 shots is equivalent to one of my old cups of coffee, not three, as I had originally estimated. I gauge this by the apparent strength of the coffee after adding the foamed cappuccino mix to the cup. Added to two shots, I can still taste the coffee better than adding the same mix to one of my traditional cups of coffee.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 13, 2010)

kwkarth said:


> BTW, after further evaluation, I would guess that probably 2 shots is equivalent to one of my old cups of coffee, not three, as I had originally estimated. I gauge this by the apparent strength of the coffee after adding the foamed cappuccino mix to the cup. Added to two shots, I can still taste the coffee better than adding the same mix to one of my traditional cups of coffee.



Yeah, I'm sure I will always do double pop-shots, but I wanted to taste all of these single flavors they give you in the meager sleeve of 16.

I got the 200 pop welcome kit, plus another 140 of others coming tomorrow, so I will be able to pop up the power.

I absolutely guarantee that King Arthur Cinnamon Sugar. Try it on buttered toast too! They used to sell a little amber glass bear shaker, but he is out of stock now...but you could just use a salt shaker. If you are going to order the cinnamon sugar, get a couple of these Fabulous Fudge Brownie Mixes too. Just add a half bag of Nestles semi-sweet chips. Trust me.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 13, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Yeah, I'm sure I will always do double pop-shots, but I wanted to taste all of these single flavors they give you in the meager sleeve of 16.
> 
> I got the 200 pop welcome kit, plus another 140 of others coming tomorrow, so I will be able to pop up the power.
> 
> I absolutely guarantee that King Arthur Cinnamon Sugar. Try it on buttered toast too! They used to sell a little amber glass bear shaker, but he is out of stock now...but you could just use a salt shaker. If you are going to order the cinnamon sugar, get a couple of these Fabulous Fudge Brownie Mixes too. Just add a half bag of Nestles semi-sweet chips. Trust me.



Besides the 200 "Welcome shots, I've purchased an additional 210 shots of various varieties, focusing on my favorites of the moment. The last order arrived yesterday, so now I feel I've got sufficient stock on hand to properly take care of guests, the wife 'n' me.

Not sure what our run rate is going to be once things settle down yet.

I hope you enjoy your Nespresso in CT as much as we are enjoying ours here in PDX.


----------



## saabluster (Jan 14, 2010)

Lux have you had a chance to try the SMs Sadamo yet?


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 14, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Yeah, I'm sure I will always do double pop-shots, but I wanted to taste all of these single flavors they give you in the meager sleeve of 16.
> 
> I got the 200 pop welcome kit, plus another 140 of others coming tomorrow, so I will be able to pop up the power.
> 
> I absolutely guarantee that King Arthur Cinnamon Sugar. Try it on buttered toast too! They used to sell a little amber glass bear shaker, but he is out of stock now...but you could just use a salt shaker. If you are going to order the cinnamon sugar, get a couple of these Fabulous Fudge Brownie Mixes too. Just add a half bag of Nestles semi-sweet chips. Trust me.



Hey Lux,
Did you get the rest of your coffee supply today? What do you think so far?
k


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 14, 2010)

saabluster said:


> Lux have you had a chance to try the SMs Sadamo yet?



Funny you should mention that. I just roasted a batch today as City+, will do FC tonight but plan to let them rest for a couple days.

How dark were the beans you got from Starbucks? Sweet Marias says City+ to FC roasts. Their pictoral guide is here.


*kwkarth*, OMG! Just had two double pops of the "*Special Club Singatoba*." That is superb. Gonna order another 200 of those after just talking to them on the phone. Apparently these Fall (& Spring) special editions normally have about a 2-3 month run time, but this one has been the most popular, and anticipate selling it for about one more month.

They promise their pops are considered fresh and optimal for 4-8 months, and do have both a made & expire date on sleeve carton. The Singatobas were made last June, and expire end of May, so they can't sell beyond Jan 31 and still fit into the 4 month minimum expiration date. He says they really stay great well beyond their expirations, and some will order 500 or more of a favorite like this.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 15, 2010)

Also had both of the Espresso Decaf pops tonight. Enjoyed them both. Did you see how you can reset the amount of water it dispenses for either espresso or lungo? I think I increased the amount for espresso to about 150% of what it put out for default.

I did order 200 more of the Singatoba.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 15, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Also had both of the Espresso Decaf pops tonight. Enjoyed them both. Did you see how you can reset the amount of water it dispenses for either espresso or lungo? I think I increased the amount for espresso to about 150% of what it put out for default.
> 
> I did order 200 more of the Singatoba.



Yup, I've played with that, and can't make up my mind about where to leave it set. I did measure its consistency too, and it's not bad. Keeps same volume output regardless of varying back pressure from coffee capsules, so it's not a simple timer.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 15, 2010)

The trick with extraction is to extract as much volume of espresso as you can without "over" extracting, at witch point, the "over" extracted flavor will emerge from the espresso and ruin the shot.


----------



## da.gee (Jan 15, 2010)

So basically kwkarth and LuxLuthor haven't slept for days. They're too hyped up on caffeine! :laughing:


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 15, 2010)

da.gee said:


> So basically kwkarth and LuxLuthor haven't slept for days. They're too hyped up on caffeine! :laughing:



*What makes you say that??* 
:huh:

BTW, I picked up an Elzetta ZFL-M60 from PTS (arrived today) and it is one awesome light!!!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 16, 2010)

kwkarth said:


> The trick with extraction is to extract as much volume of espresso as you can without "over" extracting, at witch point, the "over" extracted flavor will emerge from the espresso and ruin the shot.



Oh, see I didn't know about that over-extracting nuance. I think the original espresso setting had their included (cheap) glass only about 40-50% filled (including crema). I adjusted it so it fills about 2/3 of that glass. I could measure exact mililiter amounts. Did you find the volume of what you consider the ideal?


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 16, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Oh, see I didn't know about that over-extracting nuance. I think the original espresso setting had their included (cheap) glass only about 40-50% filled (including crema). I adjusted it so it fills about 2/3 of that glass. I could measure exact mililiter amounts. Did you find the volume of what you consider the ideal?



The ideal water volume will vary depending upon the roast, pack density and grind fineness. You'll notice the "Lungo" varieties are designed for longer extraction /higher volume times without becoming over extracted.

From my own subjective "testing" all of the Lungos taste better with less extraction. I've pushed some of the espresso to almost double volume, with some over extraction evident. I would guess that Nespresso has tested this pretty thoroughly and push things as far as they can and still get consistently good results. 2/3 full with some of the espressos is probably ok.

Anything with cream and sugar can be pushed farther and still taste acceptably good since the cream and sugar mask the over extracted characteristic flavor.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 16, 2010)

So your double volume must fill their small included espresso glass all the way to the top?

The most interesting thing for me about using this machine (besides how fast and convenient it is) is how I am tasting the various flavors without any milk/creme/sugar which I had always added to my regular coffees, so that alone is an interesting and surprisingly enjoyable experience.


----------



## TedTheLed (Jan 16, 2010)

this should clear up some questions, including how a double can take the same amount of time to pull as a single.

http://www.coffeekid.com/espresso/minifaq 

check out "How long does the shot take?" 

'pops' are for kids..stop the blasphemy..grind fresh beans.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 16, 2010)

TedTheLed said:


> this should clear up some questions, including how a double can take the same amount of time to pull as a single.
> 
> http://www.coffeekid.com/espresso/minifaq
> 
> ...



I didn't have a question on the amount of time, and it was specific to water volume with this Nespresso machine.

If Pops are for kids, you might have given some thought to linking a website reference named coffee*KID*.com, and there's no way I'm spending the money on a whole espresso setup beyond what I just got....so blashpemy or not, get over it. :nana:


----------



## TedTheLed (Jan 16, 2010)

...none so blind as those that will not see.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 16, 2010)

These Nespresso machines use a 19 bar pump with stainless boiler. The espresso "capsules" are pre-loaded with the optimum amount of coffee. The system is engineered to work "automatically" so pulling a perfect shot takes no more effort than pushing a button. All of the experimentation we're talking about is just icing on the cake.


----------



## TedTheLed (Jan 16, 2010)

..icing on the STALE pre-ground cake..

come to think of it I tried one of these a long time ago (mine came with little cups with an "N" logo on them, which I kept when I returned the machine to williams-sonoma) it was fun, but, again, not fresh.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 16, 2010)

TedTheLed said:


> this should clear up some questions, including how a double can take the same amount of time to pull as a single.
> 
> http://www.coffeekid.com/espresso/minifaq
> 
> ...



Perhaps you missed the wonder of this system. The coffee tastes freshly roasted and ground. I would not have believed such a thing was possible, had I not experienced it myself. 

You should give it a try for yourself and see what you're missing.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 16, 2010)

TedTheLed said:


> ...none so blind as those that will not see.



You're absolutely correct Teddy. I couldn't agree more!


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 16, 2010)

TedTheLed said:


> ..icing on the STALE pre-ground cake..
> 
> come to think of it I tried one of these a long time ago (mine came with little cups with an "N" logo on them, which I kept when I returned the machine to williams-sonoma) it was fun, but, again, not fresh.



Their coffee is now ground in an oxygen free environment to prevent oxidation. Perhaps what you tried was either bad or much earlier in their develpoment.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 17, 2010)

Well on his advice to a Coffee Kid website, I'm gonna keep making my pops and enjoying them. I have made pops for friends who are up this weekend from Manhattan and they are seriously pissed that what I served them tastes as good or better than what they are doing with their $7,000 machine.


----------



## LeifUK (Jan 18, 2010)

What you call Turkish coffee is the standard Arab way of drinking coffee, not just in Turkey. Maybe that's how it is marketed in America. 

I like Arab style coffee with cardamon. It's not easy to find where I live. 



Fallingwater said:


> Here in Italy the national way of making coffee is with the moka. They say it's the best way of doing it, but if that's the truth then mokas hate me, because whenever I try to make some the end result is hopelessly disgusting. I don't mind, because I drink coffee rarely and only for utilitaristic reasons (to keep myself awake), but it'd be nice if I could do decent coffee for friends when they came to visit...



I have about 4 stove top coffee makers (3 Italian) plus one I gave away to my brother. They were hard to obtain in the UK in the pre-internet age. 

I've tried British brands of coffee and it was awful. I stick to Italian, Lebanese and Brazilian brands.


----------



## LeifUK (Jan 18, 2010)

Dare I say that I prefer a tea made with quality leaf tea? Unfortunately it is almost impossible to buy good quality tea in the UK. The only option is to import from China and Japan.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 21, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Funny you should mention that. I just roasted a batch today as City+, will do FC tonight but plan to let them rest for a couple days.
> 
> How dark were the beans you got from Starbucks? Sweet Marias says City+ to FC roasts. Their pictoral guide is here.



Saabluster, I had both roasts of Ethiopia DP Haile Selassie Sidamo yesterday and today. I can see why you like it. Not only does Tom give it a remarkably high "Cupping Score" but the label says:


> "City+ to FC+ - A sweetly fruited cup, spice in darker roasts. Lighter roasts have strawberry, peach, apricot, plum, mango, caramel, cream, licorice, cardomom, and ginger."



Now, I clearly don't have all their imaginative abilities to specify all those flavors, but it is very remarkable and different from my Central American regular beans I have been getting. I don't know that I have ever had such an interesting and complex coffee.

I like it enough to order 20 lbs in addition to the 10# I already got.


----------



## TedTheLed (Jan 21, 2010)

that guy certainly has a sensitive taste for coffee! 
but darn if I don't read his description and then see what he's talking about..
it's not that it tastes like hot water with caramel peach apricot strawberry etc. in it -- it's just a suggestion of what to expect..

that said, there was this Harar a few years back that did taste like it had blueberries in it -- it smelled like blueberries when you ground it, and tasted like blueberries when you drank it..the power of suggestion, or objective reality? :shrug:

when I buy beans I pay more attention to those 'flavor wheels' -- important aspects to me are body and complexity ratings..


----------



## saabluster (Jan 22, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Funny you should mention that. I just roasted a batch today as City+, will do FC tonight but plan to let them rest for a couple days.
> 
> How dark were the beans you got from Starbucks? Sweet Marias says City+ to FC roasts. Their pictoral guide is here.


Looking at my Starbucks beans they appear to be a City or City+.



LuxLuthor said:


> Saabluster, I had both roasts of Ethiopia DP Haile Selassie Sidamo yesterday and today. I can see why you like it. Not only does Tom give it a remarkably high "Cupping Score" but the label says:
> 
> Now, I clearly don't have all their imaginative abilities to specify all those flavors, but it is very remarkable and different from my Central American regular beans I have been getting. I don't know that I have ever had such an interesting and complex coffee.
> 
> I like it enough to order 20 lbs in addition to the 10# I already got.


The complexity of the Sidamo is what draws me to it. There's just so many layers to it. A few days ago I made the best cup of coffee I have ever had in my life with a fresh bag of Sidamo. I mean it was mind blowingly good. I did a little something different that time. Even though I have a bur grinder the grind does not come out perfect. So I decided to do a double pass to try and get the grain size closer to one size and worked really hard to keep any of the powder from getting into the filter. I also blasted the grinder with compressed air to get out every trace of the prior days grind as the bits oxidize very quickly. I'm sure your high dollar grinders don't have the grain size problem though. Anyway after starting the brew I took the first 3 1/2 cups to come out of the 10 cups I poured in. Mandy and I were both blown away. I tried later to brew some up for my wife because she got jealous and I messed it up royally.


----------



## TedTheLed (Jan 23, 2010)

how many of Sweet Maria's coffees have you tried?
I tried the middle tier Geisha once (not the top $100 one..) and just couldn't see or taste my way through to the price 
(was it 50 or so a lb.?), BUT;

I do recommend the Aida's, it's around $25 and only 1 pound to a customer,
way worth it..don't overroast it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sweetmarias/1924074848/


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 23, 2010)

I keep a coffee journal, and have ordered 84 different coffees since starting home roasting. On occasion, I have tried some of their expensive 1# (or 2#) limited listings, and while superb, I have had a hard time justifying it being 4-5 times better quality to justify that higher price. 

More importantly, it takes me several roasts to get it the way I like it best, so with a 1# limit it has not been worth it. It's a shame, because I enjoy many El Salvador coffees, and the peaberry beans I have tried.

I especially have enjoyed the Pacamara beans from the Chalatenango & Metapan northern regions of El Salvador, and there are two wonderful listings at SM now. I can recommend both of the E.S. listings and that other Peaberry there now.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 25, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> I keep a coffee journal, and have ordered 84 different coffees since starting home roasting. On occasion, I have tried some of their expensive 1# (or 2#) limited listings, and while superb, I have had a hard time justifying it being 4-5 times better quality to justify that higher price.
> 
> More importantly, it takes me several roasts to get it the way I like it best, so with a 1# limit it has not been worth it. It's a shame, because I enjoy many El Salvador coffees, and the peaberry beans I have tried.
> 
> I especially have enjoyed the Pacamara beans from the Chalatenango & Metapan northern regions of El Salvador, and there are two wonderful listings at SM now. I can recommend both of the E.S. listings and that other Peaberry there now.


Hey Lux,
Back in the old days the Coffeebeancorral had a bean they called Maui Moka peaberry. It was about 12-14 bux a pound about 8 years ago. Did you ever try any of that? It needed a three day rest after roasting to hit its flavor peak, but it was probably the best coffee I've ever had.

I recently (a couple months ago) bought something similar from Sweet Maria's but I haven't roasted it yet. Ever try it?


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 25, 2010)

We should start comparing notes on the Nespresso coffees. Some are much better than others to my palette and I probably will not stock more than maybe 6-8 varieties regularly.

Your thoughts?

Ristretto??


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 26, 2010)

Yeah, agreed. So far my favorites are:


Ristretto
Singatoba (Club Special-from northern Sumatra)
Indriya
Arpeggio
Intenso Decaff
Ruled out regular & Lungo Decaffeinato

I have not given these enough tasting yet:


Roma
Livanto
Cappricio
Volluto
Cosi
Rosabaya de Columbia
all Lungos
Only Hawaiian I ever got because of the $$$ was: 


Kona - Kowali Farm JBM Cultivar
Kona - Kowali Blue Mountain
Both were exquisite. I'm sure that Maui Moka Peaberry was out of this world. You are likely referring to this bean now? First reaction at that price I had is what's wrong with it? LOL! One thing I love about CBC is their Matrix.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 26, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Yeah, agreed. So far my favorites are:
> 
> 
> Ristretto
> ...



The corral eventually stopped selling their Maui Moka because they could no longer get any as the farm decided to dedicate all of their crop to selling locally. I've not tried the current offerings from CBC. 

Sweet Maria's managed to get a small quantity of this bean last year and sold it with a 1# limit per customer. I bought it, but I've not roasted any yet.


> We are done with our Hawaii offerings for 2009 - except for a very unusual Hawaii Ka'anapali Estate DP Maui Moka. This coffee is a very small bean, and the dark color makes it a challenge to roast. Unlike Yemeni coffee which is so high grown, this Moka is very mild, low acidity and sweet. No Kona until very late fall, or early winter.



WRT Nespresso, I find your selections interesting. We have lots of overlap!

So far, my favs are: (higher numbers indicate greater desirability) 


Ristretto - 10 when used with milk/sugar
Arpeggio - 7
Roma - 5
Livanto - 5
Cappriccio - 5
Volluto - 5
Cosi - 8
Indriyia - 8
Rosabaya - 9
Dulsão - 7
Singatoba - 8


Fortissio Lungo - 
Vivalto Lungo - 
Finezzo Lungo - 


Decaffianato Lungo - 
Decaffianatto Intenso - 6
Decaffianatto -

I tried one of those flavored coffees and didn't like it at all.

I'm sure my rating numbers will fluctuate as time goes along.

WRT freshness, I've had some Rosabayas that were outstanding and others that tasted less than perfectly fresh. Frankly, most of the Nespresso blends come across to me as the equivalent of 1-2 weeks after roast which is remarkable considering that most of the ones I have were roasted between June and September of '09. When most of my roasts get beyond two weeks old, I throw them away, as they taste terrible compared to a week old.

I would love to be able to get samples that were more recently roasted.

Typically, the darker the roast, the less sensitive a coffee is to aging/staleness, so light roasts like Rosabaya and Cosi are pretty good tricks to pull off acceptably.

Ristretto is more consistent to my palette because of this. Heavy roasts obscure the varietal characteristics of a bean, so besides the higher "intensity," the accentuated bitterness of the Ristretto mates well with cream and sugar, while the light roast of the Rosabaya communicates well, the varietal subtleties of fruit and floral characters when enjoyed straight up, au natural.


----------



## TedTheLed (Jan 27, 2010)

dob't be so quick to throw out 'stale' beans,
many varieties taste best at week two,
Tom at Sweetmarias even mentioned one that was best at three weeks!
(I'm looking for it.)


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 27, 2010)

Just did 3 separate single shots of Roma today, and would put it on the acceptable list. Using your scale, I would give it a "7." One thing that was messing me up was the capsules that came with the machine were obviously past their time. Some more than others.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 28, 2010)

I just did another focused comparison between Roma and Ristretto today and I am lowering my 6 rating of Roma to a 5.

Rosa is too thin for me. Too little body. Lack of substance and character compared to even Ristretto, which I would expect to be thin due to extreme dark roast, but even Ristretto has more varietal character and body.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 28, 2010)

TedTheLed said:


> dob't be so quick to throw out 'stale' beans,
> many varieties taste best at week two,
> Tom at Sweetmarias even mentioned one that was best at three weeks!
> (I'm looking for it.)



Thanks for the advice. I actually don't throw them until they taste bad enough to toss.


----------



## CLHC (Dec 25, 2013)

*How Do You Brew Your Coffee?*

As of late, I've been brewing my coffee with this new fandangled contraption:



 

 



With ESE Pods



 

 

 



With Fresh Grounds



 

 

 

 



Spent Espresso Pucks





Still experimenting (I'll call [espresso]menting) with the grind and the "timed" shots. So far I'm really liking it!

Usually I almost always Aerobie AeroPress my coffee brew followed by a Chemex Pour Over. This Handpresso Wild Hybrid is becoming my favorite for a shot of kick starter "fuel" in the morning. Besides, one can also do an Americano! :thumbsup:

Enjoy!


----------



## Flying Turtle (Dec 25, 2013)

*Re: How Do You Brew Your Coffee?*

That's one strange looking device. When I'm not too lazy to just drink Nescafe Clasico instant I'll grind some beans for a one cup French press. I'll grind it really fine, so the brew is thick and hearty.

Geoff


----------



## Norm (Dec 25, 2013)

*Re: How Do You Brew Your Coffee?*

*Lavazza Modo Mio*







Norm


----------



## markr6 (Dec 26, 2013)

*Re: How Do You Brew Your Coffee?*

Only CHEMEX!!


----------



## croarcher (Dec 26, 2013)

*How Do You Brew Your Coffee?*

Two gillettes + 220 VAC ;-)


----------



## mcnair55 (Dec 26, 2013)

*Re: How Do You Brew Your Coffee?*

Tassimo does me fine.


----------



## gearhead1972 (Dec 26, 2013)

*Re: How Do You Brew Your Coffee?*

I used to grind my own beans that I got from Boca Java, and use a stove top percolator, then I got a Keurig. End of story, perfect cup every time, and in under 4 min.


----------



## StarHalo (Dec 26, 2013)

*Re: How Do You Brew Your Coffee?*

The Aerobie Aeropress invented by Mr. Alan Adler, who you can sit and chat with over on the CoffeeGeek forums. 

After having worked as a professional barista, I can tell you the single biggest contributing factor to making good coffee is using fresh-roasted beans - store-shelf joe in a $1000 coffee maker will not taste as good as fresh roasted coffee in a $10 coffee maker. Your bag of beans should have a "roasted on" date, not a "best by" date.

Everyone loves the convenience of the pod systems, but be aware of the cost of that convenience; I can get three pounds of similar-quality ground coffee for the same price the pod user is paying for ~15 servings..


----------



## PhotonWrangler (Dec 26, 2013)

*Re: How Do You Brew Your Coffee?*



StarHalo said:


> Everyone loves the convenience of the pod systems, but be aware of the cost of that convenience; I can get three pounds of similar-quality ground coffee for the same price the pod user is paying for ~15 servings..



Good point. Get the reusable pods that you can fill with your own coffee.


----------



## markr6 (Dec 26, 2013)

*Re: How Do You Brew Your Coffee?*



StarHalo said:


> Everyone loves the convenience of the pod systems, but be aware of the cost of that convenience; I can get three pounds of similar-quality ground coffee for the same price the pod user is paying for ~15 servings..



For me, they just completely *******ized coffee. I'll never own one. Actually I don't even consider that coffee. Just crap in a plastic case.

I like to at least grind my own beans and enjoy the aroma. Doesn't have to be anything special, usually just something basic at the grocery store like Dunkin Donuts or Gevalia.


----------



## CLHC (Dec 26, 2013)

*Re: How Do You Brew Your Coffee?*

AeroPress[ed] Coffee!


----------



## AA#5 (Dec 26, 2013)

gswitter said:


> I use a drip machine (Technivorm) with a carafe that's insulated instead of heated. The combination of that machine, filtered water, good beans and a burr grinder produces our best home-brewing results to date. We probably tried a half dozen combos prior to this one - French presses, cold brewing, all-in-one grider/brewers, etc - and this current combo is worlds better than any of the previous.
> 
> For single cups, the Aeropress does a pretty decent job as well.



The Technivorm is great. I only use mine when I have company. For me alone, I use a Hario cone dripper, Bonavita Kettle with long thin spout, paper filter & burr grinder. Honestly, it's just as good as the Technivorm.


----------



## CLHC (Dec 28, 2013)

AEROBIE AeroPress, Able (SS) DISK Coffee Filter, Zario 1 Cup Brew Station, Porlex Mini Hand Mill, Duralex Picardie Tumbler:


----------



## CLHC (Jan 1, 2014)

For the start to 2014, It's JetBoil[ed] Press Coffee:





Enjoy!


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Jan 1, 2014)

^

Sweet set-up! :thumbsup: [email protected]@Ks like Santa put you on his good boy list. 

~ Chance


----------



## StarHalo (Feb 7, 2014)

Fun fact: Beethoven had only coffee for breakfast, which he prepared with exacting care himself, counting out exactly sixty beans per cup.


----------



## markr6 (Feb 7, 2014)

StarHalo said:


> Fun fact: Beethoven had only coffee for breakfast, which he prepared with exacting care himself, counting out exactly sixty beans per cup.



LOL I'm sooo doing that tomorrow morning!


----------



## Flying Turtle (Feb 7, 2014)

I just dump beans into the grinder til it looks right for one cup. Just had a cup and counted the beans. This one was 118. That Beethoven was drinking dog water. I prefer paint remover.

Geoff


----------



## Norm (Feb 7, 2014)

Flying Turtle said:


> I just dump beans into the grinder til it looks right for one cup. Just had a cup and counted the beans. This one was 118. That Beethoven was drinking dog water. I prefer paint remover.
> 
> Geoff


So obviously Nescafe 43 beans in every cup is pig swill.

PS I never drink instant
Norm


----------



## StarHalo (Feb 7, 2014)

Flying Turtle said:


> I just dump beans into the grinder til it looks right for one cup. Just had a cup and counted the beans. This one was 118. That Beethoven was drinking dog water.



There's right around 8 grams per 60 beans, most pro coffee competitions revolve around a 15-20 gram dose, so your ~16 gram serving is perfectly normal. I'm hoping Ludwig just used a really small cup.

If you really want to experiment with coffee strength, get an Aeropress; since there's no one way to make coffee with it, you can get a range of flavor and/or bitterness that exceeds what would be considered reasonable. 25 grams of ground coffee with only 4 fl oz of water pressed through it is just about chemical weapon strength..


----------



## flyingtoaster (Feb 7, 2014)

*Re: Coffee: drip vs percolate*



mudman cj said:


> Up front disclaimer - I am admittedly a coffee snob.
> 
> Friends don't let friends percolate coffee. This over-extracts undesirable compounds from the coffee that increase the bitterness of the drink. :green:
> Drip is definitely preferable. That said, I do not drink either. I go for espresso at home or what they call stovetop espresso at work.
> ...



Hi mudman. Fellow coffee snob.

-First, I don't buy it on over extraction. French press saturates the grounds in coffee and I have never had a French press that I felt was too bitter, unless I drank a mouthful of grinds (it happens with FP)

-The ideal extraction happens at 200 degress F +- 2 degrees. I have had the most flavorful, aromatic percolated coffee brewed when camping at 6000 feet in elevation, where water boils at 200F.

-Aluminum is carcinogenic but tastes fine. Stainless steel is easily protonated, lending a weird taste to acidic drinks like coffee unless the container is electropolished or passivated. 

-Espresso requires specific pressure, heat, time, and most importantly, experience. Anything else is a variation of drip coffee. I have never had a decent espresso shot that wasn't ground on a $400-$2000 grinder and pulled on a $1000+ machine by an experienced barista.

-Ryan

OH YEAH

I only brew pour-overs at home and I buy from a good specialty roaster on Thursdays because they roast every Thursday monrning. I notice a degradation of fruity esters after 4 days. I throw the bag away after 4 weeks. I really need to start a composting bin.


----------



## brownl (Feb 25, 2014)

I think Vacuum pot is the best vessel to make a perfect coffee even if it will spend you more time.


----------



## StarHalo (Apr 4, 2014)

A Seattle startup is taking the discarded cherry pulp from processing coffee beans to dry and grind it into a powder, thus creating _coffee flour_. Stay tuned..


----------



## PhotonWrangler (Apr 4, 2014)

StarHalo said:


> A Seattle startup is taking the discarded cherry pulp from processing coffee beans to dry and grind it into a powder, thus creating _coffee flour_. Stay tuned..



Does this mean coffee bread?


----------



## StarHalo (Apr 5, 2014)

PhotonWrangler said:


> Does this mean coffee bread?



Technically yes, though it's the coffee fruit that's being used to make the flour, not the bean. Probably not much in the way of coffee flavor or caffeine, though a load of antioxidants. In my limited but creative baking experience, coffee flavor is very difficult to impart in bread aside from just seasoning it with espresso powder.


----------



## ryball (Apr 7, 2014)

My newest method of brewing will hopefully be here soon. 

https://grandst.com/preorder/bruer

And my newest favorite mug. Not quite gigantic, but mostly large enough. The lid is your regular garbage. I use it mostly without.

http://www.ecovessel.com/double-barrel-insulated-stainless-steel-mug-with-lid-16-fl-oz/


----------



## martinaee (Nov 4, 2014)

Monocrom said:


> No coffee-maker for me. One less thing to clean. Sometimes old-fashioned way of doing things is better. (Especially when it comes to making coffee.)



What's your old fashioned way? 

I am a person who actually likes instant coffee--- but mind you instant coffee varies SO much in quality. Dougwe Egberts and Nescafe Taster's Choice are both pretty similar and actually don't taste like the liquid in the bottom of a dumpster. They look different too. I don't know what 99 percent of makers who make instant coffee do, but it's not good. I love really good brewed coffee, but day to day I'll drink good instant.

I want to get a Chemex maker. I have a little plastic pour over and a french press, but the chemex looks so awesome and people seem to love them. Pour over is such a great and easy way to make good coffee without a coffee maker. Does anybody use one of those?


----------



## StarHalo (Nov 4, 2014)

martinaee said:


> What's your old fashioned way? I am a person who actually likes instant coffee--- I want to get a Chemex maker.



Cowboy dip. Have you tried Starbucks Via? And you might look into the Aeropress..


----------



## markr6 (Nov 5, 2014)

martinaee said:


> I want to get a Chemex maker. I have a little plastic pour over and a french press, but the chemex looks so awesome and people seem to love them. Pour over is such a great and easy way to make good coffee without a coffee maker. Does anybody use one of those?



I love my Chemex, but only at work where we have a instant hot water tap on the big coffee maker. Boiling it at home is kind of a pain, but I'll do it occasionally on the weekend. 2 cups boiled in the microwave in about 4 minutes, so I guess it could be worse.


----------



## martinaee (Nov 5, 2014)

Thanks guys. Oh, the Chemex and Aeropress both look awesome. Is the aeropress more for espresso? I'll have to watch videos on it.

Hmm... Well it's almost 12am so I guess I'll go make a cup of decaf. Some people don't understand why you'd drink decaf coffee, but I totally love it. To a coffee drinker it subconsciously has the same effect as caffeinated coffee at night. The brain knows what that chemical goodness of caffeine tastes like so decaf has a placebo effect. (Yes, I know it has some caffeine still, but not much at all)


----------



## StarHalo (Nov 5, 2014)

martinaee said:


> Is the aeropress more for espresso?



No, it's for making coffee any way you want to make it; you can dial in how flavorful or bitter you want your cup. If you associate "strong" coffee with being bitter, it can do a fine impression of a lengthy french press, or if you just want flavor without bitterness, coffee that tastes the same way it smells, it can do that too. There's a remarkable number of videos out there about its use since there's no one way to use it, plus there are Aeropress competitions worldwide, where professional baristas challenge each others' methods.


----------



## martinaee (Nov 7, 2014)

Oh wow that's pretty cool. I know everybody has different *tastes* (literally), but I never understood why people would want super bitter coffee. The whole point to me is to get all the flavors and sometimes boldness without getting the bitterness. Usually I associate bitter coffee with either burned coffee or reheated old coffee. Here is a pretty cool page looking at coffee roasts: http://www.aldocoffee.com/2010/01/what-does-french-roast-mean.html

Where do you guys fall on the darkness scale. On the pic in that page if I had to guess I'd say I'm maybe an 8 or a 9 although I've never roasted beans myself so it's hard to be sure. I think it also probably matter what type of beans you are roasting. I think I read somewhere you can roast beans in a crock-pot. Maybe I'll look at some different ways. Also I had a little electric grinder but it broke a while back and I never got another.


----------



## StarHalo (Nov 7, 2014)

Almost all fresh-roasted coffee falls in the light-medium range of roast darkness, that's where the flavor is, unless you like bitterness. I have a pair of roasteries nearby, both with ~$10,000 commercial roasters, so I let them handle that end of the business. Still need a grinder though, the class-leading Capresso Infinity burr grinder pairs perfectly with the Aeropress. My preferred origins are Panama and Hawaii.


----------



## radiopej (Nov 8, 2014)

Espresso! Piccolo latte  

I have a Rancilio Silvia I bought a few years ago mostly with birthday money. Love.


----------

