# Stopping Voltage Spikes from HID / killing Luxeons



## Justintoxicated (Jun 12, 2006)

Hi I'm trying to figure out a way to stop voltage spikes from my HID lights on my ATV from poping Luxeons.

I had the Luxeons all wired up and were working for well over a year untill I added HID lights.

Now when I turn the HID's on the Luxeons go out...Permanently...

Will adding a small capacitor be enough of a filter?


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## Kryosphinx (Jun 12, 2006)

How high do the voltage spikes go?


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## IsaacHayes (Jun 12, 2006)

Ouch! Diodes may help if they are reverse spikes...

At least lumileds has dropped prices on luxeons since you last ordered!


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## Justintoxicated (Jun 12, 2006)

I'm not sure what the problem is, it does not show up on my DMM, or on the Scop-o-meter (Borrowed from friends work).

But if I don't Turn the HID"s on they are fine, soon as I turn the HID's on the Luexons shut off / burn out.

I don't get it 

I guess I could run them on batteries but that seems pretty pointless since I have available power from the vehicle.

It also fried some 12V LED switches, add 1000 ohm resistors has helped the switches (after I bought new ones) but I have the luxeons driven off an LM317T in current regulation mode...

Yea I hear they are cheap now, I still have 5 TWOK's I never did anything with but I'm running low on colored LEDS...


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## HarryN (Jun 12, 2006)

You might want to try experimenting with taskled.com drivers. Those are designed for use in autos which have pretty spikey power. I am pretty sure that George designed those to withstand some pretty dirty power.

How are you managing the current flow now ?


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## Justintoxicated (Jun 12, 2006)

HarryN said:


> You might want to try experimenting with taskled.com drivers. Those are designed for use in autos which have pretty spikey power. I am pretty sure that George designed those to withstand some pretty dirty power.
> 
> How are you managing the current flow now ?



Looks good, but will it work? which driver would be best for 2-3 luxeon III's in series, how much are they?

I had my circuit working on ATV electrical (more spikey than a car) for a few years, but the HID's are doing something to the system


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## HarryN (Jun 12, 2006)

I would use the CCW5 - around $18 under the order products section. George sends then out very fast.


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## andrewwynn (Jun 14, 2006)

if you want to protect a lux from a spike.. put a zener diode (and a good idea to include a resistor).. in series with the lux.. choose a diode just higher voltage than you'll ever run the luxeon.. added bonus.. if you have several lux in series.. and one of the blows.. the others will still operate as the zener takes over the voltage load of the blown emitter. if there is a reverse attempt at voltage.. the zener will likewise pass the current.. 

You can also put a bypass zener+resistor around the entire ckt set to maybe 14V or something just over the max that the normal ckt would take. it's far more elegant and direct than trying to find the right capacitor that can absorb the apparent spike. 

The fluke 87 DMM will monitor a load over a long period of time for 1msec max values.. the scope-o-meter might be a very tricky thing to catch the spike 'cause you have to figure out the trigger point and it's not a repetitive thing. 

Is it when you turn the HID ON or OFF when it blows? i've been confused about voltage spikes on power-on but most of my computer AC adapters pull that off somehow so it doesn't surprise me anymore... but inductive kick causing voltage spikes is usually from a power disconnect. 

-awr


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## evan9162 (Jun 14, 2006)

Put a 1n4001 or 4002 diode in series with everything (regulator, luxeons, etc). If there are reverse voltage spikes, then they could damage the luxeons and regulator.

A 20V or so zener in parallel with the whole thing would work too. It would clamp voltage spikes and prevent too much voltage from hitting the regulator/LEDs.


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## andrewwynn (Jun 14, 2006)

if you have voltage to spare.. the diode in series is incredibly wise.. the parallel zener would short any reverse spikes as well.. do you need to put series resistance with the zener? or let the zener act like a fuse should it need to? 

-awr


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## evan9162 (Jun 14, 2006)

If you get a 1W or 2W zener, then I think in parallel without any resistors would work fine - since it's supposed to clamp momentary (milliseconds or less) reverse spikes, or overvoltages, then I don't think a resistor is necessary, and will reduce its effectiveness.


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## greg_in_canada (Jun 14, 2006)

You can also isolate the Luxeon lights from the rest of the electrical system with a "hash filter". It will appear as a high impedance to fast spikes and thus attenuate them, and what voltage gets through will have a higher source impedance, so the current glitch through the LEDs will be reduced.

Greg


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## andrewwynn (Jun 14, 2006)

evan, that's what i was thinking exactly. 

-awr


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## blahblahblah (Jun 14, 2006)

I'm trying to understand why voltage spikes are occurring. Wouldn't the 12v battery kind of regulate the voltage to the nominal 12v range? Do the HIDs and LEDs have their own wires running independently to the battery? If the battery was larger capacity or newer, would this reduce/eliminate the spikes?


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## andrewwynn (Jun 15, 2006)

voltage spikes are like AC on a DC line.. you can have both.. any ckt that is attached to DC can generate a pulse of voltage... and though the battery itself might act as a pretty solid capacitor of sorts to hold voltage constant.. the wiring between the bat and devices acts as a resistor and an inductor to allow voltage differences.. 

blahblahblah has a point.. the problem should be reduced or eliminated if the dif. ckts have independent leads to the battery. 

funny story about 'blahblahblah'.. a good buddy of mine who worked for apple computer.. he goes to the computer where you enter your information for getting your business cards made.. and it's completely your responsibility.. you put in your name.. numbers.. and your job title.. 

For 'job title'.. he put " Blah Blah Blah.. probably just testing if they had any human looking at them to see if that would be rejected.. but no.. he got the cards.. 

His Name
Blah Blah Blah.

the best part.. all apple cards are translated into japanese on the back.. they transliterated it.. and occasionally he'd get a very confused asian saying basically what the heck is 'Brah Brah Brah'.. true story. 

-awr


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## Steve K (Jun 15, 2006)

Lots of good ideas here! 

I don't have much to offer, except a few guidelines for handling EMI and noisy power....

the first step is to put zener(s) in parallel with the leds, to protect them. Maybe one across each led, or one across the string of leds. 

The next step is a diode in series with the power into the current regulator that feeds the leds. A 1N4001 was suggested, but I'd recommend something faster. I've used a MURS160 fast recovery diode for systems used in construction equipment. We test our stuff with a very fast -600v power spike, and the MURS160 is able to stop the pulse, while a general purpose rectifier like the 1N4006 wasn't able. If you can get a copy, the SAE J1113 series of tests are what automotive and construction equipment are designed to survive.

Adding some filtering between the diode and the current regulator doesn't hurt. A pi filter is handy. It's just a cap to ground (1000pF maybe), a series ferrite, and another cap to ground (0.01uF maybe). This should knock out most of the high frequencies. The ferrite could be a lot of things. Make sure it can handle the current that's required. I use a lot of Murata ferrites, but the Steward parts are good too, and available from Digi-key, etc. Check the frequency range that it's designed for.

The next step would be to keep the nasty stuff from getting from the HID to the battery. Another pi filter would be good, as well as a zener to clamp any spikes that the HID generates.

These are just some good rules of thumb. It would be interesting to see what sort of noise/spikes the HID is creating, but that would require a proper oscilloscope to detect.

good luck,
Steve K.


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## blahblahblah (Jun 19, 2006)

Just by chance, I was on Welch Allyn's website and remembered this post...
http://www.walamp.com/lpd/files/datasheets/ISL305B2.pdf
On page 2 of the .pdf look for note #3.

In summary it says if your ballast is >6in from the battery, twist the wires continuously to prevent voltage spikes.

It looks like your solution is pretty darn easy!


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## andrewwynn (Jun 19, 2006)

now wouldn't that be a hoot.. use 'twisted pair' concept. 

-awr


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## Justintoxicated (Jul 19, 2006)

Sorry for the lack of responses, I just got back from Vacation in Turkey!

1) The Balasts are much more than 6 inches from teh battery, I could twist them! I will give it a shot but I want to take more percaution as well.

2) Should each HID have it's own ground? I don't mean to make them run them because they can definately share the ground wires with the size of wire I'm using, but would that help prevent spikes?

*
Right now it is setup like this.

Battery(+) -> Distribution Block -> HID's and Luxeon LM317T Circuit (one wire to each HID, and smaller gauge wire to LM317T Project box.) 
Battery(-) -> Distribution Block -> LIGHTS & ATV's Frame in 2 or 3 places.

The Battery has a simple spad terminal from which I can really only connect one wire, The wire from the Stator (Alternator) hooks up to the battery here. What I have to do is split off that wire to get power to the distribution block (sort of a Y adapter I made where one end goes to the block and the other goes to the ATV's stator to charge the batter (voltage rectifier in between of course). *

- I don't understand how to make a Hash Filter. 

- I don't understand why I would need to buy so Many ZENER diods or where to even purchase them.

- I don't understand how to make a Pi Filter "It's just a cap to ground (1000pF maybe), a series ferrite, and another cap to ground (0.01uF maybe)." 
_Sounds like something I could make I'm just not understanding how to connect the 2 caps or where to get/select the Ferrite or how to use it. Where would this filter go between the Diod and Regulation circuit? Why not put it before the regulation circuit?_

-"Put a 1n4001 or 4002 diode in series with everything (regulator, luxeons, etc). If there are reverse voltage spikes, then they could damage the luxeons and regulator." 
_Speaking Greek to me man!  _

- "A 20V or so zener in parallel with the whole thing would work too. It would clamp voltage spikes and prevent too much voltage from hitting the regulator/LEDs." 
_How do I put it in parallel with the WHOLE thing? please explain!_

*MORE QUESTIONS:*

voltage spikes seem to be worse when I power ON and Off, but seem to occure at any given time judging by the times at which the LED's blow...

I don't want to spend over $100 to get these lights working, is it possible? Which of these things should I try first other than twisting the wires! 

The LED's are in Series so would one Zener Diod at the begining be the way to go? maybe another one after the LEDs?

Would simply splicing off my Y-adapter I made and bypassing the Distribution block solve the problem?




Thanks in advance for everyones help! I'm getting close to getting the bike running again! I defintaly have alot to learn when it comes to electronics. Everything was working fine for a couple years before I switched up to HID's!

*Is there something I could buy to just slap on before the Luxeon Circuit, maybe between the distribution block and circuit?*


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## HarryN (Jul 20, 2006)

Hi - I would contact georges80 at taskled.com and ask him if his CCW circuits have sufficient isolation. I know he has used this widely on car installations.


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## Steve K (Jul 20, 2006)

regarding my suggestions for blocking diodes, pi filters, and zener diodes, let me offer a quick sketch of the circuit I'm thinking of....

http://i5.tinypic.com/20ighuu.jpg
(yeah, I should learn how to post pictures....)

Ideally, this would be built onto a small circuit board, but nothing fancy. maybe one of those general purpose copper boards from Radio Shack with pads and stuff? do they still sell that sort of thing? It might be easiest to use leaded parts (parts with wire leads) instead of surface mount, although surface mount would be more effective for high frequency.

Parts... the caps should be rated for 50v, basically. 100v wouldn't hurt. 
The zener: if your battery is X volts, get a zener rated for 1.5 times X. Just a rough rule of thumb. A 3 watt zener is a good size.
The ferrite (shown as an inductor): this is tougher to suggest. It should be rated for roughly 50% more current than the average current to the LED. A general purpose ferrite is probably good enough. 

sources for parts? www.mouser.com isn't bad. www.digikey.com has a better choice of parts, but has a $25 minimum order, last time I ordered.

It might be worth looking through the catalog to see if they offer a power filter. Something that will block the noise. Maybe something designed for auto sound systems? This would be the easiest for you to implement. Maybe something from Radio Shack?? ummm... nothing pops up on their web site.

Crutchfield has something that might do the job:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-E1SeXK1pI1T/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=power+filter&i=003S15A
it's only $13, and is probably a good/cheap thing to try out.

good luck,
Steve K.


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## Handlobraesing (Jul 20, 2006)

Steve K said:


> regarding my suggestions for blocking diodes, pi filters, and zener diodes, let me offer a quick sketch of the circuit I'm thinking of....
> 
> http://i5.tinypic.com/20ighuu.jpg
> (yeah, I should learn how to post pictures....)
> ...



Who makes the ballast for HID? The battery should offer enough cushion to make the kickback from HID system like nothing. If the LEDs and HIDs are on same downstream circuit, replace the switch with a dual contact type. Share the battery side, but don't share the load side with the HID. 

This effective creates two separate electrical switches housed within one switch assembly and you effectively isolate the inductive kickback.


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## Justintoxicated (Jul 21, 2006)

The HID's are made by Trailtech. Not sure who's ballast they are using and I don't think they want to give that information away. Also I void the warranty if I open up the light.

So would this be a good plan?

- Order the part from Crutchfield (not sure how it hooks up though)

- Twist HID's power and ground wires for each light to prevent spikes.

Don't use the distribution block for the Luxeons but add another path from as close to the battery as possible. (does this need to bypass the main power switch or can I make the path after the master power switch?) (I don't understand the difference between using the single or double switch)

- Use a different ground than the distribution block as well.

Should I also (Add a capacitor before the LM317T Circuit? I think I have a 2000uf) and a smaller cap rated for more power after the circuit before the LED's? Would this help in any way because I already have the parts to do that. I almost have enough parts to build the filter above other than the 1N4004 and the Inductor/Ferrite Actualy someone showed this to me before but I did not understand where to get teh Ferrite/Inductor from or how to determin which ones would work.


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## Justintoxicated (Jul 24, 2006)

Steve K said:


> Lots of good ideas here!
> 
> I don't have much to offer, except a few guidelines for handling EMI and noisy power....
> 
> ...



Steve, Will a Zener still work if the LED's are In Series?


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## Steve K (Jul 24, 2006)

The basic filter arrangement is independent of the load itself. The parts need to be selected to match the load, though. The zener voltage will have to be high enough to not conduct under normal operating conditions, the caps will be rated for the battery voltage, etc. 

The zener is a good idea regardless of how the leds are wired up. It's not a bad idea when using the Crutchfield filter too. I think I'd wire the zener across the filter's input terminals, to make sure that no voltage spikes get into the filter.

Steve K.


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## Justintoxicated (Aug 14, 2006)

Can I get these Zeners at Radtio Shack?


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## Steve K (Aug 15, 2006)

boy, I don't know what Radio Shack carries nowdays. I think you'd have to visit and see what they are stocking.

If their offerings are slim, you might be able to just wire a bunch of diodes in series to get the desired voltage drop. Something like the generic 1N4001, maybe. Depends on how much space you have too... 4 or 5 1N4001's won't be small.

Steve K.


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## Justintoxicated (Aug 16, 2006)

Well I'm not against getting them elsewhere, jsut a matter of finding the right parts., I'm thinking to pickup the crutchfield filter, and just re-wire the lights (ground HID's to front of frame and LED's to the rear; and don't power the LED's from the same distro block either-although I still don't understand why it would really matter since it would be spliced off the line going to the distro block anyways?)

But the HID's grounds would be shortened up quite a bit! and I will twist the power wires as well and see if it helps (well there is 2 power wires for each pair but I can't twist all 4)

Surely something must be causing the issue other than the HID ballasts themselves?


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## Gunnar (Oct 28, 2007)

andrewwynn said:


> if you want to protect a lux from a spike.. put a zener diode (and a good idea to include a resistor).. in series with the lux.. choose a diode just higher voltage than you'll ever run the luxeon.. added bonus.. if you have several lux in series.. and one of the blows.. the others will still operate as the zener takes over the voltage load of the blown emitter. if there is a reverse attempt at voltage.. the zener will likewise pass the current..
> 
> You can also put a bypass zener+resistor around the entire ckt set to maybe 14V or something just over the max that the normal ckt would take. it's far more elegant and direct than trying to find the right capacitor that can absorb the apparent spike.
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Coul someon explain the difference in the function of Series wired, and Paralell(bypass) wired Zener for spike protectionon on LEDs?

Best regards
Gunnar


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## VidPro (Oct 29, 2007)

Justintoxicated said:


> Surely something must be causing the issue other than the HID ballasts themselves?


 
yes your ATV stator (and any regulator). it is adding to the pulsing that the hids are doing, by trying to maintain the voltage.
add that to your nightmare, and you have a bit of a electro war going on with your "transformer" .
when you tacked in MORE consuption the stator has an even harder time keeping up and power from it acts like it pulses more, there is very little cleanup on the "alternator" thing on these products, and the battery itself doesnt mind the pulsing.

the reason the battery isnt good enough to keep the voltage clean is because the battery is just barley big enough to even start the machine to begin with  not to mention that the stator cant keep up with the current draws, which is a good reason your using leds and Hid, because halogen would give you a dead batery Right?
and an aged badly maintained LEad acid battery , is even worse. cyclists often use battery tenders because lead acid doesnt like deep discharge, or to be left discharged, or left for months discharging itself.

i would first target the regulator curcuit. because that is where i made this misteak myself. 2 things can occur, the leg of the regulator umm the one that drives the gate, when it disconnects the regulator can go FULL high. this doesnt HAVE to have been because of the hid, but just because a ATV reeks havoc on electrical parts, by rattling everything to death. if that gate leg comes out, blOuuey the whole regulation goes to heck.
This happened to me when i put a new heat sinc on my regulator and it was a piece of junk, the regulator got so hot, the solder melted, the leg lifts, and blam no more regulation.

the second aspect is, regulation curcuits can be made with as few as 2 parts, or 15 parts, and i found out when the other 13 ARE or are NOT nessisary. the other stuff cleans up any backlashes, or cycled fluxuations in the originating power, a few capacitors, and diodes and stuff that are totally unnessisary on the "bench" but come in really usefull in reality, like the reality of motorcycle power. not flashlights.

potentially you could just buy the KIT regulator, which is assembled with the other 13 parts 
i got a link to it, although i sometimes REMOVE the other stuff 
http://www.web-tronics.com/posadpowsup.html
(this is just ONE of 3 kits, this one doesnt have ability to be beat hard, but it has more heat sinc, and shows the other parts to clean up a simple 317 type regulation)
the kits are cheap as heck, pretty hard to mess up because they are simple, and they have all the cleanup a regulator needs, and parts that can be a bit "overdone" unlike tiny smt parts that are just enough for the job. i mention those because they are CHEEP.

so those are the items i would suspect first, to address the cause and not the symptoms. some fat extra caps at the front and back of the regulator, could be added TOO, as a cheap fix for the battery not having the "capacity" or "resistance" it needs to keep the voltages clean. the regulator like many curcuits, sorta tests and adjusts on a cycle, if you have harmonic voltage changes, and backlashes from other things, its not going to work, without backlash protection and cleanup .

If your unregulated, and regulated power were closer to eachother (more leds in series) then the regulator doesnt have to do so much heat dropping work, and it doesnt heat up/fail as much. if failed regulation was overdrive, not death, you would not have completly lost the leds. (resisters anyone 

which goes right back to using a Current curcuit IF your going to have to stuff a curcuit in. like the george stuff like was mentioned the Nflex has ferrite beads, and diode reverse protection. and can handle higher voltage and series leds. the ferite beads, and diodes are supposed to offer some protection, and are unnessary in some applications.

then adding in zener lockdown protection for the leds, should probably be done anyways no mater what it is, i dont know how to do that, but i assume if the voltage gets to high the zener which is designed to break across reverse to its diode direction, would become the item that gets slammed with the power instead of the led. so it goes in parellel with the led, is the correct (breakdown) voltage for when you want it to lockdown (like say 3.9V) and would take the heat of a high voltage surge through itself, instead of the led, insuring the led did not go over the zener breakdown voltage. but that wont stop your wires from smoking  or the zener from overloading IF the power was just way to much non-stop. it will just be able to handle the OVERvoltage for the led to itself, when/if that occurs, like intermittantally.
it would be for intermittant fluxuations to be dampened, or to reduce a catastrofic disaster from hitting the led, but it should not replace cleaning up the original mess of power issues.

more than you needed to know 

then back to your stator, they have upgraded stators for some cycle products, and also , one could wonder that if your draw was so high on the charging system of the ATV, which isnt big enough for what people want to put on it, that it hasnt gone all dirty on you too. for example with old 1980s points systems the capacitor would often have to be replaced, it didnt last long. regulators and the diode on alternators didnt and still dont last forever.


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