# Solving a Misfire in a Sable/Taurus...



## LEDAdd1ct (May 21, 2013)

I have a problem with my car which is driving me bonkers, and I am hoping someone here can assist. The story goes like this:

A few years ago, my "Service Engine Soon" light in my 1999 DOHC Mercury Sable (Taurus) came on. I was told it wasn't a serious issue, and let it go for awhile. When I was able, I had all the plugs and wires changed, and the technician turned the light off. However, miles later, it came on again. The code was the same, "Cylinder Six Misfire." I used the computer from Autozone to read the code and turn it off, and it went away for some time.

Recently, it came on again, same Cylinder Six Misfire, but I noticed over a period of months that the car was shaking with a rough idle. When you drive, when you accelerate, you don't feel it at all, but when you are sitting still, you definitely do. I brought it in to a local branch of a national chain of auto repair shops, and they diagnosed it as a bad coil pack. They swapped the coil pack, but told me that there seemed to be a lot of carbon buildup in cylinder six, and though the new coil pack would make it fire, it still wouldn't be 100%. They advised me to go for a long drive over the weekend.

A couple weeks ago, I did a 250 mile loop, with the "Service Engine Soon" light still on. I added fuel injector cleaner prior to the drive, in the hopes of removing the carbon buildup in the cylinder. However, the car still idled rough, and when I paused during the trip to snap some photos, the tachometer fell low and the car almost felt like it would stall out.

I brought it back, and they did some rerouting to isolate the cause, pointing spark plugs to different places. They said that the plugs and fuel injectors were working properly, and that since the code was reappearing on cylinder six, it was probably just dirty. 

I do not know if this is related, but when I drive, there is a ticking noise coming from the bottom left. The mechanic said he didn't see anything odd from the bottom of the vehicle. When I drive faster, the ticking increases. It is never present when I stop, as the frequency of the tick follows the velocity of the car, and goes away whenever I apply the brake. When I brake, the ticking vanishes. The last time I was in, the mechanic told me that when I use a computer at Autozone, it reports a code that is already there, while their more advanced computer can read data while the car is running. He said the reason the "Service Engine Soon" light didn't turn on is because while it was still misfiring, it hadn't reached the level of being serious enough to reactivate the light. This evening, with my gas running low, the "Service Engine Soon" light once more illuminated. I have no doubt that when read, it will indicate, once again, "Cylinder Six Misfire."

At this point, I don't know what to do. While I can assemble a computer and know a little bit about flashlights, my knowledge of cars is lacking. I have a new coil pack, which may have reduced the issue, but the shaky idle is still there. When I am at rest, I can see the car's incandescent lights gently throbbing on the wall. So, 1999 DOHC Mercury Sable, 126,000 miles, plugs and wires changed, new coil pack, persistent cylinder six misfire. I googled vacuum leaks, but the articles I pulled up state that a vacuum leak would impact all the cylinders, not simply one. I am not in a position to continuously drop money into solving this, but I have found the members of this forum to possess a depth of knowledge that often exceeds that of the average man or woman on the street. My dad has a Taurus wagon of a similar vintage with 150,000+ miles, and it does not shake when idle or stopped. 

I would appreciate any constructive advice. Googling returns a thousand possibilities.

If there is any other information I can supply, I will happily oblige. There are things that may seem obvious to persons in this field which I would never consider. 

Thank you!


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## StarHalo (May 21, 2013)

I'm in awe that you got a Sable to run over 100,000 miles; that said, check for air leaks on the intake side, if that's not it then it's probably not going to be a do-it-yourself problem unless you're experienced with changing valves/rings. Throbbing lights means the battery needs to be replaced. Ticking that matches your speed is usually something stupid like a rock in the wheel assembly, which won't harm anything.


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## gadget_lover (May 22, 2013)

A compression check may be in order. A sticky or burned valve might account for it, and that will show up with a compression leak down test.

I did a quick google for "taurus Cylinder Six Misfire" and found a lot of discussion about that symptom. Replacing the "pre cat" 02 sensors on high mileage cars was recommended in one thread. 

In the old days I'd look at all 6 plugs to see that they were the right color and the electrodes in good condition and properly gapped. I have not looked at a sparkplug in the last decade. 

Daniel


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## Poppy (May 22, 2013)

I agree with doing a compression check. Assuming that's good, then I would suspect clogged egr ports.

Could be all or most of the ports are clogged, but that the port for cyl 6 is open, and when the egr opens cyl 6 gets all the exhaust gases causing it to be too lean and causing a missfire in that cyl.
You could try a seafoam treatment, it might help.... maybe. But I've seen photos of ports so clogged that an ice pick was needed to clear them.


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## Lou Minescence (May 22, 2013)

If you have an advanced scan tool, go into " freeze frame " and note the engine temperature when the code set.
If coolant temperature was less than 170 degrees, suspect the plenum gasket. They are rubber and harden up from heat and will no longer seal at low temperatures. A common problem.


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## LEDAdd1ct (May 22, 2013)

Thank you all for the replies.

When I am able, I will pop by Autozone and get the codes read and printed. 

So far we have:

1) Air leaks
2) Compression Leak
3) Bad oxygen sensor
4) Clogged EGR port (what does EGR stand for?)
5) Dried out plenum gasket

The headlights throb because the car is shaky when still; near as I can tell, their movement is purely mechanical in nature.


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## orbital (May 22, 2013)

+

Your running on 5 cylinders =

If it were my car,, I'd do a strong Seafoam treatment in the gas.
Then a compression test if needed.

If a compression test shows difference on cylinder 6, you have to ask yourself if you really want a rebuild on a '99


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## Poppy (May 22, 2013)

Regarding seafoam, read the instructions, I believe half goes in through a vacuum line, and the other half goes in the tank with about 4-5 gallons... again check, and read the instructions.

IMO if it were a vacuum leak, you'd probably also get a bank 2 O2 sensor 1 lean code.
Where-ever it was that you read "bad O2 sensor".... they were wrong (at least for YOUR problem)


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## Frijid (May 22, 2013)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> Your running on 5 cylinders =
> 
> If it were my car,, I'd do a strong Seafoam treatment in the gas.



+1 on the sea foam, buy a can and throw er in your gas tank. be sure to put it in on a half a tank, shake the car a little bit, then finish filling er up. be sure to run the car awhile and DON'T fill it up because if you do, you'll water the treatment, so run it down kinda far (not far enough to burn up the fuel pump, just let it go down a little bit past half tank) 

If i recall correctly, you can put seafoam in the oil but you can't run it very far without changing it. 

seafoam is on sale in my area from advance auto for 7.99, not sure if that is nationwide sale or local, but it's worth a short by saving a few bucks, cause it normally runs about 10.99 in other stores. 

you can also check to see if a cylinder is firing. run the vehicle and pull the wire off each plug (try not to get shocked wear rubber gloves) and if the motor dies down when you pull it off, then that one is firing good. If you pull the plug and it doesn't die down, then you have trouble there. 

About the clicking, a neighbors vehicle used to do that same thing, and it turned out to be a loose clip in the brakes or a loose caliper.


I'm not much of a mechanic, but hope you find something i said useful. 


you may not want to take my final advice,

but my motto is, if you can fix it, run er till she blows.


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## Poppy (May 22, 2013)

Frijid said:


> If i recall correctly, you can put seafoam in the oil but you can't run it very far without changing it.
> 
> 
> you may not want to take my final advice,



Again... READ THE [email protected]!!!
jonzo @ fordforumsonline.com claims he burnt up his engine after putting seafoam IN HIS OIL .

To answer your question... what does EGR stand for, its "exhaust gas recirculation"

Another possible missfire cause, could be a clogged/sticking fuel injector a seafoam treatment MAY help that.


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## Poppy (May 22, 2013)

While this thread speaks to bank one and bank two lean codes, it is a pictorial of what you have to do to clean the EGR ports.

P0171 P0174 3.8 windstar egr ports
http://leckemby.net/windstar/windstar01.html


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## alpg88 (May 22, 2013)

you need to find good diagnostic shop, guess swapping parts is a lot more expencive than diagnostic fee. 
i have worked as a auto mechanic, and seen ppl spend thousands on parts trying to guess what was the problem, even thou i do have some experience in fixing cars, i would not even try to guess without the car right in front of me. 
in a car that is 14 years old, anything is possible, bad gasket, clogged egr, cracked vaccum hose, loose contact......etc. wish i could guess, but it needs good diagnostic shop, and someone that knows what he is doing, btw dealers shop would be the last place, in general, not only they will charge you at least few hunddreds for testing, but they would still charge you even if they don't find anything, plus ppl that work there, are not garranteed to know stuff better than any other shop. have dealt with dealers before.


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## orbital (May 22, 2013)

+

Do a strong* Seafoam with like 1/2 tank gas...* just add to the gas*.


*around 2~3oz. per gallon



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## Frijid (May 22, 2013)

Found my un opened can today in the building. it says you can put it in the oil, but i've heard lots of bad stuff about doing it. I think it comes from people putting to much in, and running it to long, cause you can't run it that long, you are supposed to do it just before you change your oil. 

also

be VERY VERY VERY careful when putting it in the vacuum line that leads to the cylinders, if you pour it to fast, you can HYDRO-LOCK your engine. many videos about it on youtube. i just use seafoam by putting it in the gas tank. also stabil ethanol treatment seems to be pretty good from what i hear on a tune up for vehicles. I ran some stabil (the red one, the stabilzer) through a blazer and it made in run better. many say it's just for stabilizing, but in fact it cleans out the fuel lines and the carb/fuel injectors. as always though, don't expect to much a miracle from liquid in a can if it's something mechanical. I had a family member who had a bronco II that had a bad lifter knock and several things else wrong with it. mechanic said he'd be lucky to get another 1,000 miles out of it. The mechainc wanted over 2,000 dollars to fix everything. he said he would instead run it till it blew, and he got another 37,000 miles out of it. 

Have you checked the distributor cap on it? i know i had a rough idle in my vehicle until i changed the pcv valve. it was just like 4 dollars and took about 30 seconds to do.


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## Poppy (May 22, 2013)

Wow Frijid! I never heard of hydrolocking caused by seafoam, but you are right there are many posts discussing it.

BTW... this car has a distributorless ignition system.

I'm guessing that your rough idle was casued by a vacuum leak due to a worn or deteriorated grommet.


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## turbodog (May 22, 2013)

I'd do a compression and leakdown test. If they are good I'd drive it till/if it dies. Carbon buildup can cause misfires, but if compression/leakdown are good I doubt you have a serious problem.

Carbon flakes off and prevents valves from sealing properly which causes misfires. The carbon works its way out and misfire goes away, but it happened long enough to throw a code.

If they are bad... you're looking at valves/head or rings/block.

Or get an engine from a salvage yard...


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## Lou Minescence (May 23, 2013)

With all due respect, I've seen this problem before. You need to go to a Ford dealer or a reputable repair shop for a diagnosis. The Auto Zone people try to be helpful but in the end only fill your car up with parts that are not needed. It actually costs more to fix the problem in the end. Your problem is probably not a mystery to a seasoned mechanic. Most dealerships charge a $95 diagnostic fee.
If you want to find a good independent repair shop, get a referral from a parts store that garages deal with. They will point you in the right direction of a good repair shop.


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## orbital (May 23, 2013)

+

Frijid, don't scare people into thinking Seafoam is dangerous, it's not
just use it in the gas.

I buy it by the gallon at my local farm center *lol,,,}*
have a 24 year old lawn mower,,
nearly 35 year old snowblower,,, 
a '93 Grand Cherokee w/ 188K on her
some other stuff that could be record setting on miles {hint Honda's}

I use Seafoam as a preventive maintenance 2~3 times a year along w/ using good gas without ethanol.

Lucas Oil Injector Clear, _again get the gallon_, will save you more on fuel than the cost of the product,, and your motors run much better
{use a double dose for actual results}
that is run *always* when not doing a Seafoam treatment:thumbsup:


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## Frijid (Jul 12, 2013)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> Frijid, don't scare people into thinking Seafoam is dangerous, it's not
> just use it in the gas.



Not throwing off on stabil, i always use just a little bit in the gas tank of my weedeater and lawm mower every spring. I'll fill up the tank run it down to about half, just to "warm it up" then i'll add some stabil in the tank, shake, fill up full with more gas, then shake again. and run the tank down real low to use it all, almost up. I used to do this, then refill after about half tank again, then i realized i'm just "watering" it down with more gas, so i use it almost all up before i add more gas. Of course i run stabil year round anyways, so the two work good together. after i run that "treatment", i don't use seafoam anymore unless i would have trouble, (which, gladly i haven't had any trouble). the only thing i continute to use is stabil all the time. I also put some in my truck. I'm not afraid of it, i just wouldn't put any into the oil or intake lines. FWIW, stabil now makes an ethanol treatment. I have used seafoam spray in a chainsaw carb and it worked good. Another good product, made by the same company that makes stabil, is called start your engines. I've never had to use it personally, but i recommneded to a neighbor on his lawn mower he never took care of and it fixed it. anything from Stabil, seafoam, seafoam spray, and start your engines, is about the only stuff like that i'd use. I've heard a product called star tron is good to. 

But anyways, my main point for coming here was to ask the OP, what ever became of your problem, did you get it lined out?


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## LEDAdd1ct (Jul 12, 2013)

Hi, guys. Sorry for not posting back here sooner. 

My car is currently 2,050 miles away at work and I am now home with family.
The "problem" is on stasis until I am reunited with my vehicle.

Before I left though, a few things became clear:

1) The AutoZone people mean well, but are guessing. I don't think they are deliberately trying to bilk me, but I also don't think they really know what they are doing.

2) We have a mechanic back where I grew up, and while he is pricey, I am pretty sure he could figure this out. 

3) I am not prepared to sink a lot of money into this car. 

4) When I am again driving the car I will try the SeaFoam trick in the gas tank.

5) Most of the tests members have suggested are beyond, if not my ability, my comfort level. 

6) The last thing AutoZone said was, "We put in that fuel line cleaner. Now, drive your car normally until your next oil change,
and then we'll take another look at it, for free. It is possible the problem will go away by then." 

This is not awe inspiring. 

7) When I am again driving the car regularly, I could demand a refund from AutoZone, stating that despite the "diagnostic" and swapped coil pack,
the misfire is still there.

8) The last time I was there, the mechanic said that while it was still misfiring, the "misfire count" was much less, indicating that
the problem was ebbing away. I do not know whether, or even if, this is possible. 

I'll post back here when I am driving the car again regularly.


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## MotoCam (Aug 6, 2013)

i would:

check batt voltage while engine is running. If it is less than 13.5 i would check the charging system

Using mechanics stethescope, check and compare all 6 injector sounds (clicking). If any injector is not clicking test the circuit with a NOID light. If cyl 6 sounds different, perform injector leak test with fuel pressure gauge installed onto fuel rail and car off. 

if injectors are ok I would disable the fuel pump and check strength of spark @ cyl 6. you can do this by pulling fuel pump relay/fuse, removing cyl 6 wire from engine, installing properly gapped spark plug into coil, and using a thick wire with aligator clips on either end, connect threads of plug to good engine ground. have amigo crank engine while inspecting quality of spark. blue is good, orange/red is weak. If spark is weak check coil circuit. 

check spark plug for proper gap/part number. inspect plug for indicators of running rich or lean burning oil etc

perform compression test

using scan tool check for proper fuel trims and coolant temp readings.

check egr function

remove valve cover to check for broken valve springs

if all else fails try new ECM

good luck


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## Poppy (Aug 9, 2013)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> 4) When I am again driving the car I will try the SeaFoam trick in the gas tank.
> 
> 6) The last thing AutoZone said was, "We put in that fuel line cleaner. Now, drive your car normally until your next oil change,
> and then we'll take another look at it, for free. It is possible the problem will go away by then."
> ...


Autozone may already have put in Seafoam. If you have a partially clogged fuel injector in cyl 6, they're right, it MIGHT clean it and your missfire MAY go away. With a quality scanner one can determine the frequency of missfire, it is possible that the fuel treatment is working.




> 5) Most of the tests members have suggested are beyond, if not my ability, my comfort level.


I understand, pulling the intake plenum to change gaskets, or to check EGR ports, and pulling valve covers to check valve spring tensions may be beyond your comfort zone. 
Doing a compression test on cyls 5 and 6 is as easy as pulling a spark plug, and screwing in a gauge. Autozone has a tool loaner program, and they'll lend you the tools to do it. Also a vacuum gauge will allow you to test the valve train by connecting it and comparing how the engine runs to the gauges on this page.

HowTO use and interpret a vacuum guage
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm



> I'll post back here when I am driving the car again regularly


When do you think you will be back with the car? I don't check this section of the forums and therefore this thread too often.


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## bshanahan14rulz (Aug 15, 2013)

Any recommendations for freeware compatible with a USB to OBDII, elm327-based cable? I don't trust the little panda bear CD that it came with...


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## jrmcferren (Aug 15, 2013)

bshanahan14rulz said:


> Any recommendations for freeware compatible with a USB to OBDII, elm327-based cable? I don't trust the little panda bear CD that it came with...



It may actually be freeware on the panda bear CD. Run a virus scan on the CD before executing any software on it and then use it, I wouldn't be to afraid of it.

Misfires can be tricky, in one YouTube video I watched they had to put a scope on the ECU to trace the problem to the injector.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Aug 17, 2013)

Hi, guys. Fell and sprained my wrist and then fell and caused further damage. Didn't take a light on a dusk hike and that's the price. Reunited with the car, but haven't been able to post; typing with one hand and focusing on my job which requires constant typing. 

Put about 160 to 200 miles on it since returning to work. The CEL was still on when I arrived, but turned off three or four days ago. Have been up to 70 MPH+ since being back. Not enough to activate the flux capacitor, but hopefully enough to help clean gunk out.

I am going to leave things as they are for now. 

If/when it returns, I'll post.


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## bshanahan14rulz (Aug 22, 2013)

never tried the CD, ended up using scantool.net v1.13 (I think that's the right version). The clones all ship with that particular version because after that version, the scantool.net program checks to make sure you have a legit tool. Dunno if it means scans to make sure you have a real elm chip, or if it means that it only works with the scanners they sell. 

The error on mine looks like it's pointing to a bad O2 sensor, so I may be lucking out. Unfortunately, the clone isn't the most stable device. But, it's done more than I could have done without it! worth the $5. DIdn't see anything glaringly bad about the soldering, so I don't know where the instability is coming from. Don't care that much, was $5.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Feb 28, 2014)

Last day of February 2014.

When I last checked in, they had swapped the coil pack, but the problem did not go away.

Brought it in this morning, and they ran a compression test.

Cylinder six was averaging only 55 pounds, while the neighboring cylinders were
averaging 160.

He said when the coil pack went and the gas wasn't being burned, that probably caused additional damage.

He said it is likely either a bad ring or a bad valve, and the head would have to be pulled
and replaned. 

He said this is a $1,200 to $1,500 job.

He also said continuing to drive it "as is" will not cause further damage,
I just won't get the best fuel economy. 

1) Does this sound like a reasonable diagnosis?

2) Does the price for this sound about right?

Thank you!


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## orbital (Feb 28, 2014)

^

You probably have carbon & other junk around your valves, thus bad compression.

Do yourself this simple favor..
invest in a gallon of Seafoam & put a good quart *or so* in a half a tank gas,, drive that gas through~
I'll be kicking yourself for not doing it sooner.

Wait on the head work..


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## FlashKat (Feb 28, 2014)

If you have a bad ring will involve much more than just pulling your head. Someone should have done a compression check a long time ago. 
I was taught the 3 basics for an engine to run correctly.
1- Compression
2- Spark
3- Fuel

There are many other things that can go wrong, but those 3 things are the first to check.
Have someone do a double check on the compression test. 
Check to make sure your valves are adjust correctly.
There are many mechanics out to make money.
I had a friend who owned a Hyundai which ran rough, and made a knocking noise. 3 different mechanics told her it was a cracked head, or a rod knock. I checked it, and the valve train came loose at the main bolts. I tightened the bolts down, and the car ran like new.


LEDAdd1ct said:


> Last day of February 2014.
> 
> When I last checked in, they had swapped the coil pack, but the problem did not go away.
> 
> ...


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## StarHalo (Feb 28, 2014)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> He said this is a $1,200 to $1,500 job.



This had better be a very important Sable; half that amount with a trade-in could get you something more reliable, a 90's-era Honda, Toyota..


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 1, 2014)

orbital said:


> ^
> 
> You probably have carbon & other junk around your valves, thus bad compression.
> 
> ...



I think when I brought it in last year, they put some chemical in there to try and clean out carbon deposits.

I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try again, but I just want to verify that if there is a lot of gunk in there:

1) Putting a solvent of some sort in the gas tank won't harm other parts

2) Any gunk that is broken apart and released has somewhere to go



FlashKat said:


> Someone should have done a compression check a long time ago...
> 
> There are many mechanics out to make money....



Agreed on both counts. 

When this problem first surfaced I should have had it thoroughly checked out,
but I didn't hear any strange noises and the car appeared to drive okay.





StarHalo said:


> This had better be a very important Sable; half that amount with a trade-in could get you something more reliable, a 90's-era Honda, Toyota..



Agreed!

I spoke with someone at the shop yesterday afternoon and he:

1) Said that it would not cause further harm to drive it as is

2) Recommended against getting the work done because:

a) That amount could be put towards a newer vehicle or tradein

b) That amount would be a significant amount of the worth of the car

c) In a car of that age, something else could go wrong immediately after getting 
the current problem fixed

The car gets me to work and back (I average 9.3 miles a day to work and home again),
so I will probably leave things "as is" for now.


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## orbital (Mar 1, 2014)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> I think when I brought it in last year, they put some chemical in there to try and clean out carbon deposits.
> 
> I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try again, but I just want to verify that if there is a lot of gunk in there:
> 
> ...



^

Carbon & other junk will just be burned off in combustion. That's it.

You have to be aggressive on the amount using to get any results.
.. be serious on using 40+ oz. on a half tank (using a_ little bit_ will be completely useless)

I have no affiliation w/ Seafoam,, *it simply works wonders on older stuff *& preventative maintenance on newer.
If it didn't work remarkably, I would recommend it.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 1, 2014)

Thank you again for the help.

My bike was at work so I brought in my presta pump and when I was finally ready to bike home, the valve stem snapped off my inner tube as I was removing the chuck. 

So I took the long way home, 5.1 mile walk (pleasant, easy walking), but didn't pick the
car up because the shop was closed. I am going to get it now.

I am assuming e-Bay will be the cheapest place to get this stuff.

Once I put it in, should I just commit myself to going for a scenic drive and burn
through a whole tank of gas to let it "do its stuff"?

There is a lot of exploring I would like to do, and if the car really needs 
to get warmed up, I wouldn't mind driving down to a half tank at highway speeds
and then adding the Seafoam. I might even pay a premium to buy it locally
so I could do it today or tomorrow and not wait for a shipment to arrive via
mail.


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## orbital (Mar 1, 2014)

^

If you can't find a gallon locally, just buy 3 of the bottles.
Buying a gallon over internet will be very costly.

Not sure how much you drive, but give it some time to do its thing, don't hurry it.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 1, 2014)

What I mean is, given that it is a weekend,
I could do a 150 mile drive today or tomorrow.

If I did it gradually, I would add the stuff but the car would be on (drive to work, 4.6 miles),
and then sit the whole day, and then have the car on and running (drive home from work, same),
in two chunks separated by a large passage of time.

Which is going to be the better way to go, one or two long drives, or many discrete
drives?


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## orbital (Mar 1, 2014)

^

Shorter trips allowing the engine to get to full temperature.

also;; if you can get a gallon, get the white plastic jug that's sealed up.
*Only purchase containers that are sealed.*


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 1, 2014)

Okay, thank you.

And to verify, "SF-16" is the proper product, correct?


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## orbital (Mar 1, 2014)

+

That's it

Make sure you have a funnel handy for adding to gas tank


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 1, 2014)

Okay, will do.

I just filled up a day ago, so, if I am not going to deliberately go for a long drive for the sole purpose
of running the tank down, I may buy the stuff today and wait until the tank gets lower to add it.


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## orbital (Mar 2, 2014)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> Okay, will do.
> 
> I just filled up a day ago, so, if I am not going to deliberately go for a long drive for the sole purpose
> of running the tank down, I may buy the stuff today and wait until the tank gets lower to add it.



+

Remember to bring your engine RPMs' up.
(under revving a motor is terrible for it)


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 2, 2014)

I didn't know that.

I thought keeping the RPM count down was healthier for the engine.

I usually try and keep it at 2000 RPM or lower.


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## FlashKat (Mar 2, 2014)

Lower RPM's are not as hard on the engine parts, but low RPM's allow for build up of carbon and other junk in the catalytic converter and other areas that need to be blown out once in awhile.


LEDAdd1ct said:


> I didn't know that.
> 
> I thought keeping the RPM count down was healthier for the engine.
> 
> I usually try and keep it at 2000 RPM or lower.


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## mvyrmnd (Mar 3, 2014)

FlashKat said:


> Lower RPM's are not as hard on the engine parts, but low RPM's allow for build up of carbon and other junk in the catalytic converter and other areas that need to be blown out once in awhile.



Low RPM's are harder on some parts like bearings. 2500-3000RPM is usually the "sweet spot" where load, power, torque and economy are at a good balance. 

This is different for all engines, of course. Usually a good sweet spot is the RPM the engine is running at when in top gear at highway speed. This has to be high enough not to lug the engine, but not so high as to cause excessive wear or fuel consumption.

Personally I drive my cars based on their best torque. My Mondeo XR5 Turbo (uses a Volvo T5 motor) I drive between 2000-4500 RPM, as those are the best speeds to get the most out of the turbo.

I drive my Rav4 at 4000-6500 RPM because it's a hateful little sh!tbox with no power at all that my work provides me and I don't care for it or pay for the fuel.


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## orbital (Mar 3, 2014)

+

...a few times per week, exercise that engine to keep her clean
also, avoid ethanol blend fuel if possible*
*
*probably the most important thing here*


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## pageyjim (Mar 3, 2014)

I haven't read the whole thread yet but there is a great forum for Taurus/Sable car owners. http://www.taurusclub.com/forum/. They will be very helpful. With the problems you describe I would also look at the camshaft position sensor. It is a common problem on these cars and is relatively an inexpensive fix. You will find that these cars have many common problems. Usually the engine will last forever but are prone to transmission problems, rust, heater core etc. Again I strongly rec checking out the forum. Good luck, keep us updated.[h=1][/h]


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## FlashKat (Mar 3, 2014)

V6 & V8 engines normally don't run at high RPM. Also if an engine is designed properly lower RPM puts less load on the bearings with proper oil pressure.


mvyrmnd said:


> Low RPM's are harder on some parts like bearings. 2500-3000RPM is usually the "sweet spot" where load, power, torque and economy are at a good balance.
> 
> This is different for all engines, of course. Usually a good sweet spot is the RPM the engine is running at when in top gear at highway speed. This has to be high enough not to lug the engine, but not so high as to cause excessive wear or fuel consumption.
> 
> ...


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## Deathscreton (Mar 11, 2014)

So I've been watching this thread for only god knows how long and it seems me and the OP are having the same issue. I have a '99 Sable GS that was sold to me under the pretenses that it was "fully functional". My friends laughed and pointed at me saying that because it was a Ford that I shouldn't have expected much. Har. Har. Har. 

In any case, my car has been giving me plenty of issues since I purchased it. Most noteably three missfires, on both sides of the engine. 2 3 and 6 I believe. I've already checked the spark plugs and wires. I was gonna replace the EGR valve and ignition coil next. I was hoping it was one of those two problems. 

BUT, before I even shelled out any money on this thing, stuff got worse. Gas started leaking underneathe the intake manifold. So now I've got a car the leaks gas, misfires on three cylinders, rides rough and stalls every now and then when you come to a complete stop or turn the wheel to the left or right extreme. 

Personally, I want to trash the thing and just get a new car, but I don't have the cash, nor credit, nor time to do that. So I have to work with what I have.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 15, 2014)

Oh man, that sounds horrible.

I am really sorry.

Hope while you are here you get some quality flashlight reading in.

I ran two bottles of SeaFoam through my system.

After driving about 500 miles in one day (had a great tour and saw some awesome scenery) 
the tank went to "E". I filled it.

When _that_ tank was 75% full, the light came on again.

So, it appears the SeaFoam did nothing.

Oh, well.

It was on sale for eight bucks a bottle.

It was fun pouring eight dollars through a pretty blue funnel. 

I don't know why, though. I've always found funnels fascinating.

Whenever I look at a depiction of a black hole where all the grid lines
squish together, it gives me this feeling of otherworldly creepiness...


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## Frijid (Mar 16, 2014)

Just a suggestion, but give a product called "star tron" a try. After i've been using it, i've since trashed my love for seafoam. You can get it at any GOOD auto parts store.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 16, 2014)

Interesting.

There seem to be a number of different formulas out there.

Can you recommend a specific product part or code...?


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 16, 2014)

Also, if someone could comment in this thread here I would be grateful.


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## Frijid (Mar 18, 2014)

The one i've used is just called enzyme fuel treatment. On the initial dose it's 1oz to 3 gallons, then after that dosages run 1oz to 6 gallons. i think the bottle is 8oz's? I've always gotten mine at advance auto or kmart's. Not sure if walmart carries it. Their is like 3 formulas, 1 for gas, 1 for diesel and 1 for a tank cleaner. the one for gas is the one you'd want. It does some in different sizes and such, from a small "shot glass" size for a one time use up to like a gallon size. It's defiantly worth a shot, cause after i used it for about a month i stopped using anything else. Not to mention it was the only thing i ever used that fixed the hot start issue i had with my 85 RX-7. When it was cold, it would start in a heartbeat. when the motor was hot and set for about 5 minutes, it would start in a heart beat also. But when the motor was hot, and it sat for about half an hour, you would sometimes have to hold the gas pedal down halfway-3/4 way in and crank for about 5 seconds. I tried seafoam, marvel mystery oil, lucas, gumout, etc. nothing work. After half a tank of star tron, it cured it and the problem hasn't came back. I talked to the guy i sold it to about a month ago and he said it's still doing good, so it worked for me So defiantly give star tron a try. If it's anything "minor" you can give these "mechanic in a cans" a try. but if it's something "major" like being outta time, coil, etc then these "liquid mechanic" products may help or mask it, but probably won't cure it. If you need me to upload a picture of the bottle i'm talking about just let me know and i'll post a picture of it, but it shouldn't be hard to find. And if you go to an auto parts store, you may have to locate it yourself. I went to the stores here and asked if they sold it and the majority of the people there said they didn't sell it and had never heard of it, but lo and behold i looked for myself and they did sell it.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 18, 2014)

When you have the time, if you could upload a picture here it would definitely be useful:

http://postimage.org/

It is free, anonymous, and quick.

And yes, I agree; the liquid cleaners/solvents probably won't solve anything "major" but may
help loosen gunk or solve issues stemming from gunk or other detritus being where it shouldn't.


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## Frijid (Mar 22, 2014)

http://s9.postimg.org/lwe86azjz/0000031053fa0ef.jpg

Just had a star tron success story today. I had a pad lock on my toolbox of my truck, the key snapped inside it so i couldn't get it off. So, i had to cut it off. I remembered i hadn't started my generator up in about 6 months, so i really needed to run it and at the same time use my angel grinder to grind the lock off. (I could have just plugged it into an extension cord, but i just wanted to use the generator) So i mix up some gas and oil for it (it's a 2 cycle generator) and i pour in some fresh gas and oil. Start it up, let it warm up and i plugged a box fan into it and let it ran for about 10 minutes, just letting it run to keep it "in shape" well, i then plug in the angle grinder and turn it on, and the generator dies down really far, almost to the point of turning off. This is unusual, because i've used the grinder before when i took the generator with me to my camp when i was working on a project i was making and it handle it before. So i unplug it, and plug the fan back in and let it run some more. At this point, i thought it was just due to where i hadn't ran it for half a year. So i let it run another 10-15 minutes, plug the grinder in and turn it on, same thing. It handled the fan just fine because it wasn't pulling that many watts. the grinder pulls 550 watts and the generator can handle 800 watts. So i took the cap back off the generator, pour in just a little bit of star tron. Put the cap back on the generator, and rock it back and forth for mix up the gas and star tron. I turn it back on, hook the fan up and let it run for 25 minutes (I kept time) Unhooked the fan, plugged in the grinder and turned it on and it ran like normal. so i cut the lock off. waited about 30 seconds and hit the grinder again, and it worked perfect. My guess was the crap ethanol gas gummed up the jet or fuel line. So i turned the generator off. went back about 6 hours later and fired it back up, let it warm up, and hit the grinder again, and was just as good. I have the utmost confidence that if your vehicle is messing up do to fuel related problems, carbon, or anything related to that, star tron will fix it. I've read on their website that it will also keep your spark plugs clean. and like i said, it was the only thing that fixed the hot start issue i was having with my RX-7. And as with all cleaners, it's best to when you use them, to run them at interstate speeds to really get the stuff "flowing." I can't count how many times i've seen people pour cleaners into their gas tank, drive 10 miles, then complain the stuff doesn't work. Another thing where people mess up with cleaners is they water it down by getting gas to much. Like they fill up and pour in some cleaner. Drive about a 1/4 of the tank down, then fill back up with gas, which is just watering down the chemical. I run star tron every time i fill up. It says on the bottle over dosing isn't harmful. I've used the red stabil in the past and would have issues of the lines having a red "slime" that would get built up inside them and inside the carb. Though stabil is coming out with a new product called "360", i'm just curious as to how good it will be.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 22, 2014)

Thank you for the post.

I think I will try it!


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## pageyjim (Mar 22, 2014)

Here is an additive desinged for compression problems.

http://www.restoreusa.com/faq.html

I think StarTron may help a stuck valve or dirty injector. A sticking valve may give low compression as was diagnosed.


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## Frijid (Mar 22, 2014)

pageyjim said:


> Here is an additive desinged for compression problems.
> 
> http://www.restoreusa.com/faq.html



YES! restore, thank you. I was thinking hard last night trying to remember the name of that product that raises compression. for some reason i was thinking it was rislone. I've heard it (restore) works wonders and can even fill in holes in the cylinder walls raising compression.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 22, 2014)

What is the MSRP?


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## pageyjim (Mar 22, 2014)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> What is the MSRP?



For Restore? About $7.99

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...a=pla&ci_kw=&gclid=CPexxqXRp70CFcFlOgodrTUACA


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## LEDAdd1ct (Mar 22, 2014)

For eight bucks I'll play guinea pig.


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## pageyjim (Mar 22, 2014)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> For eight bucks I'll play guinea pig.



Read up on it first, google search etc I think I remember seeing people with oil pressure probs (lowering of pressure) If I remember correctly they may have been in healthy engines, so no real need for it imo. I think it is used best as a last ditch effort so it may be worth a shot. Good luck! Keep us posted.


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