# SSC P7 Mag against OSRAM 64440 Mag & RaidFire Spear. 95-250 m beamshots!



## StefanFS (Mar 20, 2008)

I decided to get on the SSC P7 train as soon as I read about this new emitter. It's intended to be running at 2.8 Ampere with a vf of about 3.6 Volt.


*Specs of the the emitter: *(from LiteManias sales thread)

Z-POWER P7, 10watt LED *CSXPI*
- Pure White (6,300k) 
- Flux Typ. : [email protected],800mA, [email protected],400mA 
- Flux Max. : [email protected],800mA 
- Vf Typ. : [email protected],800mA, 3.3V(@1,400mA) 
- Vf Max. : 4.2V 
- Radia. Angle : FWHM 130 deg.


I got the emitter from dealer LiteMania, here: 
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=176067

I put it in a 3D Maglite as I intended to use NiMH cells to drive the emitter to spec at ~2.8A. I have one 1D Maglite I intend to use another SSC P7 in, running on one D-size LiION cell. I also plan to mod one of my Tiablo A9 or A8 with an orange peel reflector and one SSC P7 running on one 18650 LiION. The emitter can be used with heatsinks from H22A https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/160483. 

For the emitter to fit on the heatsink it must be modded some. I dremeled the led centering ridges down so they were level with the pedestal, then I cut away the outer walls on the opposing holes for the leads. That's necessary to make room for the leads so they reach the trimmed down legs of the emitter. There is a slight hole in the hotspot when focussed for max throw. When focussed out a bit the hole disappears. I don't mind that tendency to look like a donut, but others might take offense with the beam.















On a white wall @ 1 metre compared to my Tiablo A9. The spill area is ~4 times that of the A9 and it's just as bright!














On a white wall @ 1 metre compared to my very modded SSC P4 Maglite running @ 1.2A. That SSC P4 Mag is very, very bright but it looks weak and pathetic beside the SSC P7 Mag! The spill from the SSC P7 at 1 metre is about 3 times brighter, ~280 lux versus the SSC P4 that produce ~95 lux.















*Outdoor beamshots.*

All camera settings are fixed in manual mode. 8 sec exposures, white balance on daylight/sunshine. Manual focus.

The lights used for outdoor beamshots.
From the left in the photo below: 

1. 4D Maglite with OSRAM 64440 IRC 50W radial bulb, KIU bipin adapter, 
FM cellholder, smooth alu reflector. Running on 12 Eneloop. The 50 W IRC 
Halostar equals a 75 W ordinary OSRAM halogen bulb.
2. 3D Maglite with SSC P7 emitter running @ ~2.7A. 3 NiMH cells. UCL-lens.
3. 1D Maglite with SSC P4 emitter running @ 1.2A. 1 D-size LiION cell. UCL-lens.
4. RaidFire Spear. CREE Q5 WC running @ 1.2A. One 18650 LiION cell.

All Mags with low resistance springs. I picked these three comparison lights because they represent both very bright incans, one of the best led throwers and the SSC P4 modded Mag is somewhat commonplace (though this one is a bit brighter than the various commercial dropins).








*First setting.* 







Reference shot. First setting. No light.Nice moonlight, dramatic colours.







Reference shot. First setting. Stock 3D Maglite.


































*Second setting. A 250 m stretch of very dark country road. Moonlit clouds.*







































Impressive little bugger, this SSC P7. Isn't it? When driven to spec a wild guess would be +700 torch Lumen.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------​ 
*Update 2008-04-13*

I decided to make the light 'regulated', I'm going to use this with 3 x D NiMH cells or 4 x C NiMH cells so NetKidz elegant AMC7135 based solution will work great (and it does, I've been using for a few days). It's one 1Ampere multimode driver with a slaved 1.4 Ampere board. Link: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=192677

The difference in brightness between 2.3-2.4A and 2.8A is negligible to me. It's a few thousand lux in total output, but it runs cooler and longer. And I get low, medium and strobe.



Stefan


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## StefanFS (Mar 20, 2008)

Reserved for updates!


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## cqbdude (Mar 20, 2008)

Awesome Beamshots...

Thank You for the comparison.......


Love that Orsam....


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## WadeF (Mar 20, 2008)

Nice! Hope Gene Malkoff starts making drop-ins for our Mags with P7's.


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## DaFABRICATA (Mar 20, 2008)

Those are really nice beamshots!!

I like the P7's:twothumbs


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## skalomax (Mar 20, 2008)

Great work.
I believe the SSC P7 is half HID.


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## StefanFS (Mar 20, 2008)

WadeF said:


> Nice! Hope Gene Malkoff starts making drop-ins for our Mags with P7's.


 
Believe me when I say this. Pressing the button on a SSC P7 Mag driven to spec makes you smile. 

There's still some way to go for the led emitters to reach the insane heights of high powered OSRAM halogen bulbs, but that hotwire runs for a fraction of the time my SSC P7 Mag does. But it does shine, doesn't it (the OSRAM that is).

Stefan


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## gesteenbergen (Mar 20, 2008)

Superb mods!

Love the p7! And find the raidfire quite a good performer considering it`s size:thumbsup:

Thank`s for your input:twothumbs


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## ICUDoc (Mar 20, 2008)

Great beamshots and comparisons- many thanks!


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## jugg2 (Mar 20, 2008)

Wow, great beamshots! That P7 puts out an incredible amount of light!


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## qip (Mar 20, 2008)

i thought i read somewhere p7 didnt focus right in mag reflector? is the beam tight when fully focused


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## mayo (Mar 20, 2008)

Dang, when will this ever end. My wife is gonna kill me boys.:shakehead


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## StefanFS (Mar 20, 2008)

qip said:


> i thought i read somewhere p7 didnt focus right in mag reflector? is the beam tight when fully focused


 
It's on another level altogether. I think the beam from a smooth stock Mag reflector is working good enough. It's tight for what it is. The spot is as bright as the best led throwers, but the spot is many times as big.
Stefan


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## qip (Mar 21, 2008)

could you test that thing with alks, curious if it will pull the 2.8a DD and how long it will last



update ,the battery shootout thread shows it would likely last 30 minutes prolly 10 to 50%


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## greenstuffs (Mar 21, 2008)

Can't wait for the Surefire UB2 looks very promising great reviews as usual Stefan. Thx


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## BGater (Mar 21, 2008)

As always, great work and fantastic pictures. Cant wait for someone to start building drivers for the P7.


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## I came to the light... (Mar 21, 2008)

thanks for the beamshots! That's really amazing - I hadn't even known the P7 was out... 

a bit off topic, but is the SSC P7 more efficient than the CREE R2 at 1.2A and less? also, in physical size, how much bigger is it?

Finally an efficient LED that can take currents almost as high as HO incans. The end for incans is near


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## rizky_p (Mar 21, 2008)

Makes me want to build my own  

Are you DD-ing this thing? any resistor in between?

thanks.


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## nanotech17 (Mar 22, 2008)

even normal SSC P4 is ok running it DD provided that the heatsink and good thermal compound is adequate


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## StefanFS (Mar 22, 2008)

rizky_p said:


> Are you DD-ing this thing? any resistor in between?


 
Pure direct drive. I didn't feel that a resistor was necessary with 3 NiMH cells. I do intend to find some multilevel current regulated solution. This thread is promising:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/192677

Stefan


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## AvidHiker (Mar 22, 2008)

Fantastic beamshots and handywork Stefan, just the comparison I was interested in!


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## nanotech17 (Mar 22, 2008)

Stefan,can you try it with Aspherical Lens if you have any?


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## StefanFS (Mar 22, 2008)

nanotech17 said:


> Stefan,can you try it with Aspherical Lens if you have any?


 
Thanks for reminding me. I do have an aspherical lens that user BGater so kindly donated to me. I had forgotten completely. It almost certainly will not work but I'll try it. 
Stefan


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## LukeA (Mar 22, 2008)

StefanFS said:


> Thanks for reminding me. I do have an aspherical lens that user BGater so kindly donated to me. I had forgotten completely. It almost certainly will not work but I'll try it.
> Stefan



I think an aspheric lens, slightly out of focus, might be the only way to rid the P7's output of that donut hole.


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## Jarzaa (Mar 22, 2008)

If i understand correctly you haven't actually measured the current to be 2.8A and are just looking at the typical value at datasheet? The led's actual vf has large effect on the current in DD configuration. 

In this thread Gryloc measured his P7 led pass way over 4A of current at 3.6V. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/190675&page=2
I suggest measuring how much current your led is actually drawing.


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## StefanFS (Mar 22, 2008)

LukeA said:


> I think an aspheric lens, slightly out of focus, might be the only way to rid the P7's output of that donut hole.


 
Maybe, but the spot is so powerful that the slight donut isn't really noticeable in real use. I love the beam with my stock smooth reflector. It's like the pics above show it, a wall of light spill *and* a hysterical hotspot (which is focussable to small with donut and bigger without donut). I'm happy, I just want a good driver for it.

Stefan


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## StefanFS (Mar 22, 2008)

Jarzaa said:


> If i understand correctly you haven't actually measured the current to be 2.8A and are just looking at the typical value at datasheet? The led's actual vf has large effect on the current in DD configuration.
> 
> In this thread Gryloc measured his P7 led pass way over 4A of current at 3.6V. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/190675&page=2
> I suggest measuring how much current your led is actually drawing.


 

The current to this individual emitter is 2768-2783 mA over a set of measurements with the cells I used. Be advised that current values and vf might vary quite wildly between individual emitters. Also my MM does have some internal resistrance. In a Maglite (any light) there is also a lot of resistance in the current path. I have tried to minimize this.

Stefan


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## jezzyp (Mar 22, 2008)

WadeF said:


> Nice! Hope Gene Malkoff starts making drop-ins for our Mags with P7's.


  

Excellent beamshots


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## rizky_p (Mar 22, 2008)

@StefanFS: could you post a picture of P7 sitting on top of HA22's DHS heatsink? 

thanks.


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## Tubor (Mar 22, 2008)

Thanks 4 the nice build and review Stefan.


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## Fooboy (Mar 22, 2008)

Stephan,

How much did it cost you total to make?

I've never modded a light but I think you just infected me.

Do you have instructions / materials somewhere?


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## kongfuchicken (Mar 22, 2008)

Let me be redundant and point out how nice your beamshots are! If I could do half as good with my camera, I'd pat myself on the back =P
That sure looks like an amazingly beautiful place, and with quality darkness too!

I've also been playing with a P7 and I agree with StefanFS that the donut hole is pretty insignificant in use. In fact, I honestly forgot all about it after using that light for a week or so and never noticed a difference other than taking pictures on a wall. 
I do wish there were a high end regulator that'd drive it at spec with available sources of power... AFAIK, Wayne is upgrading his shark board for this very reason.


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## Cydonia (Mar 22, 2008)

Super beamshots :thumbsup:
The SSC P7 is amazing alright... exciting stuff. 

The hotwire sort of spoils the show though 
For really lighting up those trees I know which light I'd reach for


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## Gene43 (Mar 22, 2008)

Does anyone know when the P7 will be released to the general public?


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## thermal guy (Mar 22, 2008)

:thumbsup:You go GENE


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## KRS1 (Mar 22, 2008)

I spoken to jerry from KD, looks like they will heading down ssc p7 on maglite 

Cant wait..

i just think who ever can manufacture this LED in a flashlight first in the market will be


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## AlexGT (Mar 23, 2008)

Nice comparison Stefan! 

I have a request, Could you please try that P7 Mag with an aspheric lens? 
I would really like to know how the beam will look like, My guess is that its going to throw like a cree but with a bigger spot.

Thanks, keep up the good work!
AlexGT


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## bessiebenny (Mar 23, 2008)

Great review and photos Stefan. Love those outdoor beam shots!

Imagine having a triple SSC P7 light. It'll compete with HIDs! =)
(Although I think it'll be quite big and not easy to build one)


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## StefanFS (Mar 23, 2008)

Thanks!

I did test it with my aspherical lens. Kind of disappointing. Throw is less than half the numbers I get from an overdriven CREE Q5 and this lens.


With reflector + aspherical lens, 1/25 sec, ISO 100, f2.8. Focussed for throw. At 4-5 meters.






-----------------------------

With reflector + aspherical lens, 1/320 sec, ISO 100, f2.8. Focussed for throw. At 4-5 meters. Underexposed.





-----------------------------

With reflector + aspherical lens, 1/25 sec, ISO 100, f2.8. Focussed for max spill/flood. At 4-5 meters.





-----------------------------

Without reflector, only aspherical lens, 1/25 sec, ISO 100, f2.8. Focussed for max throw. At 4-5 meters.





-----------------------------

Underexposed. Without reflector, only aspherical lens, 1/320 sec, ISO 100, f2.8. Focussed for max throw. At 4-5 meters.





-----------------------------

Horrible results!


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## nanotech17 (Mar 23, 2008)

shoot !


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## AlexGT (Mar 23, 2008)

Dissapointing! Thanks for trying!

AlexGT


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## StefanFS (Mar 24, 2008)

AlexGT said:


> Dissapointing! Thanks for trying!
> 
> AlexGT


 
Disappointing if you like aspherical lenses. Such lenses really are of limited use to me, regardless of which emitter is behind it. The SSC P7 emitter is still very impressive with a good reflector. 
Stefan


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## qip (Mar 24, 2008)

ever try it with a cree reflector?


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## AlexGT (Mar 24, 2008)

Double post!


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## AlexGT (Mar 24, 2008)

Do you have a 2.5 FM throwmaster reflector? Maybe it will throw much better with that setup.

AlexGT


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## StefanFS (Mar 25, 2008)

AlexGT said:


> Do you have a 2.5 FM throwmaster reflector? Maybe it will throw much better with that setup.
> AlexGT


 
It already throws like my RaidFire Spear or my Dereelight DBS V2, but with a much larger hotspot. And it has four times the spill area compared with the Spear & DBS (my brightest led throwers). I don't need a larger head for this SSC P7 Mag (it's also way out of my budget for Magmodding), and I need to be able to carry it in a belt ring.
Stefan


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## selfbuilt (Mar 25, 2008)

N I C E ... I see I have a lot to catch up on in my absence of the last few weeks. 

Excellent review as always Stefan. :thumbsup: I was curious as to how these new SSC P7s would perform, and your results are very encouraging for reflector setups (nice spill brightness). Too bad about the aspherical results, but I prefer reflector designs anyway.

Keep up the good work!


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## Isthereanybodyoutthere (Mar 25, 2008)

StefanFS said:


> It already throws like my RaidFire Spear or my Dereelight DBS V2, but with a much larger hotspot. And it has four times the spill area compared with the Spear & DBS (my brightest led throwers). I don't need a larger head for this SSC P7 Mag (it's also way out of my budget for Magmodding), and I need to be able to carry it in a belt ring.
> Stefan



What if you did use a lens like in this thread (2° Carclo 50mm mirrored optic )

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/125540


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## StefanFS (Mar 26, 2008)

Isthereanybodyoutthere said:


> What if you did use a lens like in this thread (2° Carclo 50mm mirrored optic )
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/125540


 
I checked that link. Don't really think that will fly with this emitter. I'm pretty much satisfied with my setup as it is. I just want to see a multimode driver that can handle 2.4-2.8 A. I have been at it for a while and the MCU's (PICs) tend to burn from the current when on low or medium (in different configs with PWM controlled levels).
Stefan


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## NetKidz (Mar 27, 2008)

Hi Stefan,

That's a great comparison. Great job. :thumbsup:


Your P7 beam from the stock reflector seems better than mine. It look round. I think I may be using too much force when sanding the reflector and it's a little deformed.


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## husky20 (Mar 27, 2008)

WadeF said:


> Nice! Hope Gene Malkoff starts making drop-ins for our Mags with P7's.


I second that also hope elektrolumens does to. or even better hope they start showing up in stock lights fenix tk10 with seoul p7 sweet.


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## husky20 (Mar 27, 2008)

Tubor said:


> Thanks 4 the nice build and review Stephan.


+1


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## iced_theater (Mar 27, 2008)

husky20 said:


> I second that also hope elektrolumens does to. or even better hope they start showing up in stock lights fenix tk10 with seoul p7 sweet.



He's going to make at least a couple with the P7's. He's going to put one in my LongThrow light with it's 3" reflector.


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## smokelaw1 (Mar 27, 2008)

iced_theater said:


> He's going to make at least a couple with the P7's. He's going to put one in my LongThrow light with it's 3" reflector.


 


Will these be available? What would they need to be driven with?


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## iced_theater (Mar 27, 2008)

http://www.illuminationforums.com/IlluminationForums/showthread.php?t=258

You might need to register at his forum to see that thread, I'm not sure.

He might make a few, though he's trying to catch up on backordered lights currently. I think he's asking $230 for the LT with P7.

The lights use either D or C cells NIMH for best performance.


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## StefanFS (Mar 30, 2008)

According to the lux meters I have access to the throw values at one meter is ~24 000 lux with the standard Maglite reflector when it's focussed for max throw. Ok, considering that the hotspot at one meter is about four to five times the size of my hottest led throwers (Tiablo A9, RaidFire Spear & Dereelight DBS) it's simply amazing since the other led throwers are in that same area, 20 - 25 000 lux. It's somewhat visible in the pics in post #1 that the hotspot also really retains it's brightness and size over a distance. I love this emitter!
Stefan


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## supes (Mar 30, 2008)

Beautiful beamshots as always, StefanFS! Finally a LED thrower that doesn't have a pinpoint throw spot, that hot spot is huge!  :rock:

So you used a stock plastic Maglite reflector? No melted plastic? Thanks


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## milkyspit (Mar 30, 2008)

Stefan, I've been lurking in this thread for a bit now and wanted to say thanks for some great investigations... and superb beamshots! Been playing with a couple P7 emitters around here as well, and your insights are a great read. Kudos on some excellent work! :thumbsup:

One nagging question... what has been your experience so far about where the focal point of the P7 is in comparison with a P4?


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## milkyspit (Mar 30, 2008)

Oops, double post.


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## husky20 (Mar 31, 2008)

what bin was that p7 in your beamshots a-b-c?and is there really that big of visual difference in b and c. :thinking:


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## StefanFS (Mar 31, 2008)

milkyspit said:


> Stefan, I've been lurking in this thread for a bit now and wanted to say thanks for some great investigations... and superb beamshots! Been playing with a couple P7 emitters around here as well, and your insights are a great read. Kudos on some excellent work! :thumbsup:
> 
> One nagging question... what has been your experience so far about where the focal point of the P7 is in comparison with a P4?


 
Thanks! My impression is that the focal point is higher up in the reflector, compared to the SSC P4. The 'donut' is very tricky to get rid of, but then again, I have a limited number of different reflectors. I only have standard sized Mag reflectors ranging from smooth to light orange peel. It's the same with other, smaller, reflectors I have been playing with. It might just be that it's bigger and higher in itself, so the effect is that it is higher in the reflector. It will need a wider hole in the reflector, which is a pain.


Husky20,
It's a C-bin.

Stefan


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## christian gpr (Mar 31, 2008)

Thank you for another great review!
Can´t wait for


> I also plan to mod one of my Tiablo A9 or A8 with an orange peel reflector and one SSC P7 running on one 18650 LiION.


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## amv12 (Mar 31, 2008)

Fooboy said:


> Stephan,
> 
> How much did it cost you total to make?
> 
> ...



Yea same here. I'm a newbie at modding mags. Are there step by step instructions for this available?


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## StefanFS (Apr 1, 2008)

amv12 said:


> Yea same here. I'm a newbie at modding mags. Are there step by step instructions for this available?


 

It cost me: Mag host ~$20, the heatsink $12 from member H22A, the UCL-glass $6.50 from Flashlightlens.com and the SSC P7 $35 from LiteMania in the dealer section. You also need Arctic Alumina epoxy or something similar. I also used a shorty spring for the tailcap from KaiDomain.

As for building, there are several really good tutorials on how to mod your Mag with an SSC P4 and a heatsink. Like this:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/167866
They are applicable here too with the exception that I didn't use a driver and you have to drill out the holes in the heatsink with a 3 mm drill so the leads reach the emitter legs. You also need to cut the legs on the emitter (in the bend, could call that part the feet) for it to fit in the reflector. I soldered the leads on the inside of the remaining vertical parts of the legs, the leads comes straight up through the heatsink and are tucked behind the legs. That's necessary for it to fit in the reflector.

Stefan


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## Rzr800 (Apr 1, 2008)

WadeF said:


> Nice! Hope Gene Malkoff starts making drop-ins for our Mags with P7's.


 
Agreed and I appreciate Stefan for showing us the future if he chooses to do so.


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## Tidra (Apr 1, 2008)

Stefan,

excellent mod,... can you tell how much heat produce P7,...

Cheers,
Iztok


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## husky20 (Apr 1, 2008)

:thumbsup:got one on the way from Wayne at elektrolumens hope it is as awesome as yours is hope its a c bin to:thumbsup:if my instincts are right i think it will be:twothumbsawesome that is.good news it will be a cbin i upgraded!


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## IMSabbel (Apr 2, 2008)

Hm. P7 is bright.
But that "SPEAR" light seems to be a real winner as a compact led thrower.
Strange that i never seen it before.

How much does it cost and where can i get it? The usual suspects didnt have it listed...


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## phreeflow (Apr 2, 2008)

WOW!!!!!!!!! :green::sick2::rock::bow:


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## LEDcandle (Apr 2, 2008)

Love the beamshots and the location testing!! Excellent review! 

Single P7 mag looks viable due to sheer output that gives the light a very useable spill.. almost makes me wanna try replacing my 7-P4 light into 7-P7s!! Who cares if it runs for 10 mins only! (well, I do actually... haha)


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## CM (Apr 2, 2008)

Excellent comparisons. When I get one of those P7's, I'm thinking high efficiency is called for when using a converter. I've already done direct drive voltage regulation (carefully trimming voltage to get required forward current) on a P4 at about 93% and I'm thinking the same for the P7. There are some nice DC-DC modules with efficiencies in the low to mid 90's at about 3A or more.


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## StefanFS (Apr 3, 2008)

CM said:


> There are some nice DC-DC modules with efficiencies in the low to mid 90's at about 3A or more.


 
Please tell me when you find one as I can't seem to find any 'normal' drivers for it.
Stefan


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## nanotech17 (Apr 3, 2008)

StefanFS said:


> Please tell me when you find one as I can't seem to find any 'normal' drivers for it.
> Stefan



There is one now at Kai's but with your advance skills with drivers,i think it's easy for you to build one 
have a look at the shop


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## Steve L (Apr 3, 2008)

Stefan,
Here's the link for the driver http://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=4338


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## alfreddajero (Apr 3, 2008)

Now that is what i call a super mag......that is bright, hows the runtime on the mag though- i would expect it too be short.


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## phantom23 (Apr 3, 2008)

In theory this driver from DX (or Kai) can provide up to 3A. Anybody tried this?


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## CM (Apr 3, 2008)

Steve L said:


> Stefan,
> Here's the link for the driver http://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=4338






phantom23 said:


> In theory this driver from DX (or Kai) can provide up to 3A. Anybody tried this?



If driving the LED at 3A, you need to pay attention to efficiency. If the LED is driven at 10W, and you have 70% efficiency, you are burning almost 4.3W of power just in the converters. (14.3W*70%=10W to the LED) 

That's 4.3W down the toilet which doesn't even get to the LED, plus remember the LED generates heat also which adds to this 4.3W of wasted heat power. Efficiency is more important as the drive level goes up.

Oh, I don't see any heatsinking on those converters  Just remember the pains that are taken to manage the heat from a 3W LED and now you have over 4W in a circuit with no thermal path. I'd love to see how long those things will last inside the head of a flashlight.


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## phantom23 (Apr 4, 2008)

Are you sure about efficiency? Seems quite low. Driver from Kaidomain is based on AMC7135 which has 95% efficiency between 3,8-4,5V (single Li-Ion).


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## CM (Apr 4, 2008)

phantom23 said:


> Are you sure about efficiency? Seems quite low. Driver from Kaidomain is based on AMC7135 which has 95% efficiency between 3,8-4,5V (single Li-Ion).



It's a linear driver. Your efficiency is Vf/Vin. If Vin is 4.5V and Vf is 4.3V, then yes, efficiency is 95%. However, Vf is generally about 3.1V at 350mA so if using Li-Ion, your efficiency is around 77% at the beginning, and it goes up as the cell voltage drops. But let's say that efficiency is 80% on the average. You're still talking about 2.5W of heat in the converters. I'm not knocking the converter but one should understand the implications of using a linear regulator in a very high current application. A switching regulator is really the best way to go, and one should aim for at least 90% efficiency.

EDITED TO ADD:

If you are going to use the KD converter, I recommend using Li-Ions in a parallel configuration such that the input voltage is no more than 4.2V. Another good configuration is 3xNiMH in series and you can parallel this as many times as you want to get longer runtime. Do not use higher voltages than what 3NiMH in series or a single Li-Ion can provide. You'll cook the regulator.


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## phantom23 (Apr 4, 2008)

Vf of ....J binned P7 is 3,5-3,75v so probably over 4V at 2,8A. It means that efficiency with single Li-Ion should be about 95%. 
I'm going to use Ultrafire C8 (C2 with bigger and deeper reflector) as a host and I'm still lookong for reasonable way to drive P7 from 1x18650 cell. I'm thinking about 8xAMC, DD or this one. First two options would give me great output but also a lot of heat and high current consumption (very short runtime). I'm wondering about last one - at about 1,2A it was more efficient than Dereelight 3SD pill (more light and slightly longer runtime) according to StefanFSs test. But I'm not sure about higher currents. If it's comparable (or not much less) efficient at 2A (can handle up to 3A) it would be great - still very bright but with acceptable runtime.


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## CM (Apr 4, 2008)

phantom23 said:


> Vf of ....J binned P7 is 3,5-3,75v so probably over 4V at 2,8A. It means that efficiency with single Li-Ion should be about 95%.



That also means that it is not guaranteed to run in regulation since the LDO has a 200mV dropout voltage. The only way to get around this is to increase the input voltage by putting it in series with another Li-Ion. Or go with 4xNiMH in series. Otherwise, it will not be running in regulation except for the first few minutes.



phantom23 said:


> ... DD or this one. First two options would give me great output but also a lot of heat and high current consumption (very short runtime). I'm wondering about last one - at about 1,2A it was more efficient than Dereelight 3SD pill (more light and slightly longer runtime) according to StefanFSs



The universal board from DX is voltage regulated. Since it is a boost circuit, it is likely not very efficient. Also, the 3A rating is bogus. It uses a SOD-23 schottky which is typically an amp. If you're going to go with voltage regulation, use a buck regulator. Something like this:


http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pth08t230w.pdf

At 3.5V-4V, you can get efficiencies of 95% with two Li-Ions, six NiMH etc. The higher voltage headroom allows you to run more cells for longer runtimes without paying the efficiency penalty typical with running high voltages with linear regulators. It also has an undervoltage lockout so you can program it to shut off to protect the battery. Oh, it won't just shut off leaving you dead without a light. It will flicker (strobe) because of the hysteresis so you still have some useable light. It's a nice feature.


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## phantom23 (Apr 5, 2008)

CM said:


> The universal board from DX is voltage regulated. Since it is a boost circuit, it is likely not very efficient. Also, the 3A rating is bogus. It uses a SOD-23 schottky which is typically an amp.


 
It means that Dereelight 3SD pill is very inefficient. 3SD gives 25 klux/1m for 90 minutes while DX board 31klux/1m for 97 minutes (1,25A). That's huge difference! If it keeps that parameters at about 1,6A that would solve all my problems.



CM said:


> If you're going to go with voltage regulation, use a buck regulator. Something like this:
> 
> http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pth08t230w.pdf
> 
> At 3.5V-4V, you can get efficiencies of 95% with two Li-Ions, six NiMH etc.


 
It's big and I'd like to have sth to fit Ultrafire C8 (and driven from single 18650 Li-Ion), I don't want big flashlight (like [email protected]). My assumption is that I'd like to make common looking flashlight and utilize a little bit of P7 performance (1,5-2A) in it. But as I can see there's no reasonable driver for it. Now it seems it's going to be DD after all.


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## Stereodude (Apr 5, 2008)

phantom23 said:


> It means that Dereelight 3SD pill is very inefficient. 3SD gives 25 klux/1m for 90 minutes while DX board 31klux/1m for 97 minutes (1,25A). That's huge difference! If it keeps that parameters at about 1,6A that would solve all my problems.


Edit: nevermind.


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## phantom23 (Apr 5, 2008)

:huh2:


StefanFS said:


> *Custom pill number 3:* This is my favourite pill. It's possible to set the output voltage on this driver. It has a nice set of different UI choices, one UI is strictly low-med-high. This one has an CREE Q5 WG emitter in it. It's possible to achieve throw values exceeding 40 000 Lux in the DBS using this, it won't last long before it overheats though (and it will be unstable at such an absurd voltage & current level). I have it tuned to a level that gives me a solid 31 000 Lux in throw and 260 Lux in spill @ one meter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## CM (Apr 5, 2008)

phantom23 said:


> ...It's big and I'd like to have sth to fit Ultrafire C8 (and driven from single 18650 Li-Ion), I don't want big flashlight (like [email protected]). My assumption is that I'd like to make common looking flashlight and utilize a little bit of P7 performance (1,5-2A) in it. But as I can see there's no reasonable driver for it. Now it seems it's going to be DD after all.



I understand your position about size. As soon as I find a solution I will post it here. But because of the power dissipation of the P7, I think that a large heatsink/flashlight is really the best solution. Anything smaller and you should really think about de-rating the power in which case you are back down to the single LED P7/Cree XR-E solution. In addition, the large emitter area of the P7 requires a fairly large reflector anyway or your beam is really going to suck (like the Lux V donut, but worse). good luck.


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## phantom23 (Apr 5, 2008)

CM said:


> I understand your position about size. As soon as I find a solution I will post it here. But because of the power dissipation of the P7, I think that a large heatsink/flashlight is really the best solution. Anything smaller and you should really think about de-rating the power in which case you are back down to the single LED P7/Cree XR-E solution. In addition, the large emitter area of the P7 requires a fairly large reflector anyway or your beam is really going to suck (like the Lux V donut, but worse). good luck.


 
About the heat - that's why DX driver seemed nice - modes. High with P7 is "too high". 
About the reflector - donut hole is visible with Mag and bigger reflector. Dunno why but with even smaller (than C8) ref in UF C2 beam is almost perfect (almost - a little bit floody, no donut). Reflector in C8 is bigger (wider and deeper) but has the same shape so I should get more throw.


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## Stereodude (Apr 5, 2008)

phantom23 said:


> :huh2:


I thought you were referring to a 7135 powered driver which will have the behavior I described. My bad.


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## StefanFS (Apr 7, 2008)

phantom23 said:


> In theory this driver from DX (or Kai) can provide up to 3A. Anybody tried this?


 

I did before I ever did this 'review' or whatever it is. It worked (just) on high providing the led with ~2A. When I tried it on low-med it burned within minutes. Bzzt! 

The driver from KaiDomain lacks adequate heatsinking area. Even the 1400 mA version this is built from gets warm.
Stefan


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## phantom23 (Apr 7, 2008)

Shame. It seems my light will be DD.


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## Ginseng (Apr 7, 2008)

WadeF said:


> Nice! Hope Gene Malkoff starts making drop-ins for our Mags with P7's.


Oy! How about a P7 Quad for the MagCharger. Now that would find a place on my nightstand.

Wilkey


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## smokelaw1 (Apr 7, 2008)

Ginseng said:


> Oy! How about a P7 Quad for the MagCharger. Now that would find a place on my nightstand.
> 
> Wilkey


 
Wilkey, 

How is it that wherever I am on the internet, I find myself agreeing with you! 

A magcharger P7 dropin would be stellar!


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## StefanFS (Apr 9, 2008)

I have a Tiablo A8 SSC P7! I plan to put it against the Mag in this thread in the near future. I used an OP reflector for this one since it was impossible to focus the smooth one. The smooth one was a casualty since I cut away too much in the end.






This thing is really spectacular. It's mostly spill, but it makes my CREE throwers look like candles.
Stefan


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## Wattnot (Apr 9, 2008)

This is never going to end, is it.

"Just when I think I'm out, they drag me back in . . . with a new emitter."

Now I have to start all over again! Good thing I'm still new . . . . some of you guys have closets full of lights!!


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## Stereodude (Apr 9, 2008)

StefanFS said:


> This thing is really spectacular. It's mostly spill, but it makes my CREE throwers look like candles.
> Stefan


How dare you post this without beamshots! :thumbsdow


j/k


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## Mercaptan (Apr 9, 2008)

StefanFS said:


> This thing is really spectacular. It's mostly spill, but it makes my CREE throwers look like candles.
> Stefan



I'm waiting (impatiently) for pictures... hehe. Also, lux measurements. Great going Stefan!


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## milkyspit (Apr 9, 2008)

This is neither a Mag nor a RaidFire, but the other day I completed a SureFire P7 upgrade...











Anyway, sorry if the post is OT, just thought you guys might want to see it. :shrug:


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## Bullzeyebill (Apr 10, 2008)

milkyspit said:


> This is neither a Mag nor a RaidFire, but the other day I completed a SureFire P7 upgrade...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Milkyspit, that looks like a KL6 mod. Did you dial it down (amps)?

Bill


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## IcantC (Apr 12, 2008)

Great job Stephan. When using mag reflector, how much did you cut off? Whole whole cam?


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## StefanFS (Apr 12, 2008)

IcantC said:


> Great job Stephan. When using mag reflector, how much did you cut off? Whole whole cam?


 
Yes, the whole cam has to go. 
Stefan


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## milkyspit (Apr 12, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Milkyspit, that looks like a KL6 mod. Did you dial it down (amps)?
> 
> Bill




Bill, that is a KL6 mod and no, I didn't have to dial it down... with a fresh 18650 cell the thing runs at roughly 2.8A output current... it also runs on other sizes of Li-ion though the really small ones (RCR123 for instance) can't deliver the full amount of current.


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## milkyspit (Apr 12, 2008)

IcantC said:


> Great job Stephan. When using mag reflector, how much did you cut off? Whole whole cam?




It might be helpful for folks to look through the archives for the various threads about assembling a "Space Needle II" (SNII or SN2 for short) mod... that one mounted a single LuxV in a Mag host... the emitter and some small details are different from the P7 build, but mostly it's the same process. Those old tutorials cover things like removing the cam from the reflector. MR Bulk posted perhaps the definitive tutorial thread on this subject... I posted my own version, too, as did various other modders. Definitely good reading when working with the P7! oo:


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## Hitthespot (Apr 13, 2008)

Enjoyed the post. Nice work on the pictures. It's nice seeing what the new P7 is going to give us.

Bill


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## StefanFS (Apr 13, 2008)

I decided to make the light 'regulated', I'm going to use this with 3 x D NiMH cells or 4 x C NiMH cells so NetKidz elegant AMC7135 based solution will work great (and it does, I've been using for a few days). It's one 1Ampere multimode driver with a slaved 1.4 Ampere board. Link: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/192677

The difference in brightness between 2.3-2.4A and 2.8A is negligible to me. It's a few thousand lux in total output, but it runs cooler and longer.


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## husky20 (Apr 15, 2008)

Stefan are you still using the stock reflector and do you know where to get a better one?:thinking:


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## StefanFS (Apr 16, 2008)

Yes, I still use the stock reflectors in my SSC P7 Maglites (and my SSC P4 Mags). I have formed the opinion that plastic reflectors, when properly made, are in some cases better than aluminium reflectors. I find the stock C-D Maglite reflectors to be one of the best designs I've seen when it comes to reflectivity and efficiency. Unless you want an OP/textured reflector I advise the use of a stock Mag reflector (it can be sprayed with high gloss clear coat lacquer for OP effect). I have tried some alu reflectors from different dealers over time, I use them in high temperature hotwires. I never use them in Maglites with led emitters since output goes down slightly when compared to the stock Mag reflector.

Stefan


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## milkyspit (Apr 16, 2008)

StefanFS said:


> Yes, I still use the stock reflectors in my SSC P7 Maglites (and my SSC P4 Mags). I have formed the opinion that plastic reflectors, when properly made, are in some cases better than aluminium reflectors. I find the stock C-D Maglite reflectors to be one of the best designs I've seen when it comes to reflectivity and efficiency. Unless you want an OP/textured reflector I advise the use of a stock Mag reflector (it can be sprayed with high gloss clear coat lacquer for OP effect). I have tried some alu reflectors from different dealers over time, I use them in high temperature hotwires. I never use them in Maglites with led emitters since output goes down slightly when compared to the stock Mag reflector.
> 
> Stefan




Gotta agree with Stefan on the plastic vs. metal reflector issue... a well-designed reflector with plastic supportive structure can be an EXCELLENT reflector, and many aluminum reflectors are mediocre at best. The choice of material among us enthusiasts, I believe, has historically centered around two things...

1. Many of us fashion things on a lathe, where aluminum is a natural choice... and some flashlight heads have integral reflectors (e.g., SureFire) in which the reflector is cut into the same piece of bar stock as the head itself... probably makes more economic sense for the manufacturer to do it this way.

2. We have largely taken our cue from the incandescent guys on reflectors... and they tended toward aluminum because plastic couldn't take the heat pumped out by a super hotwire bulb! oo:

In the LED world, though, we just don't generate enough heat to invalidate a plastic design, and given appropriate production equipment plastics can equal or exceed the reflective efficiency of an aluminum design, at a lower unit cost. There are also some things achievable in plastic that just aren't feasible in aluminum, such as having stepped feet on the underside of the reflector to facilitate centering, prevent twisting, and standardize the height at which the reflector sits above the emitter (for proper focus).

Also, to be fair, many plastic reflectors use plastic for the SUPPORTIVE STRUCTURE ONLY... the reflective surface itself is often a very thin polished aluminum layer with protective clearcoat to prevent oxidation.

Bottom line, there are good and bad reflectors in BOTH plastic AND aluminum... the material itself isn't enough to determine the quality!


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## husky20 (Apr 17, 2008)

StefanFS said:


> Yes, I still use the stock reflectors in my SSC P7 Maglites (and my SSC P4 Mags). I have formed the opinion that plastic reflectors, when properly made, are in some cases better than aluminium reflectors. I find the stock C-D Maglite reflectors to be one of the best designs I've seen when it comes to reflectivity and efficiency. Unless you want an OP/textured reflector I advise the use of a stock Mag reflector (it can be sprayed with high gloss clear coat lacquer for OP effect). I have tried some alu reflectors from different dealers over time, I use them in high temperature hotwires. I never use them in Maglites with led emitters since output goes down slightly when compared to the stock Mag reflector.
> 
> Stefan


wow you really know your stuff thank you very much really enjoyed this whole thread pics were unreal thanks again cant wait to get mine got one coming!:thumbsup:


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## milkyspit (Apr 19, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Milkyspit, that looks like a KL6 mod. Did you dial it down (amps)?
> 
> Bill



Bill, almost forgot to get back to you!  It is a KL6 mod, but no I did not dial it down... on a fresh 18650 it runs at the full 2.8A current draw. It's running direct drive and the emitter was matched nicely with the voltage range of an 18650 protected cell. :naughty:


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## StefanFS (Apr 20, 2008)

The driver solution I used seems to be stable. I have used my 1D SSC P7 Mag with one D-size LiION cell for three full recharge cycles now, that's ~8-9 hours, and the driver works as it should.
Stefan


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## Buck (Apr 22, 2008)

OP, that's quite beautiful. Any idea if a 3C NiMH direct drive would work decently? I happen to have a set of C NiMH that are currently underemployed, but no Ds.



milkyspit said:


> Bill, almost forgot to get back to you!  It is a KL6 mod, but no I did not dial it down... on a fresh 18650 it runs at the full 2.8A current draw. It's running direct drive and the emitter was matched nicely with the voltage range of an 18650 protected cell. :naughty:



Is this safe?? More importantly,:devil: can you estimate the output?

Anyone have a suggestion of a cheap, fairly waterproof 18650 light that could host one of these as a mutant dive light? (100 fsw max = 3 atmospheres) I'm willing to slather it with sealant and hope to get lucky. It would be cool to have a light that looks like no more than a little LuxIII pocket light, but slightly  exceeds expectations.


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## StefanFS (Apr 23, 2008)

Buck said:


> OP, that's quite beautiful. Any idea if a 3C NiMH direct drive would work decently? I happen to have a set of C NiMH that are currently underemployed, but no Ds.


 
It should work very well. Even three AA eneloop works quite well, but for a shorter time of course.
Stefan


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## jetset (Apr 23, 2008)

@ StefanFS
I´m not quite sure if you driver-solution offers multiple brightness???
is that possible at all with your solution?

jetset

ps: really "dangerous" forum here... I was infected after just a few minutes reading :twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs
and now almost EVERY week I make new discoveries like P4, Q5, mods, SSC P7...
for the last few months I try to read as much as possible to get knowledge about LEDs but my electronical background is poor

so now I CAN NOT buy a P4-stock flashlight anymore... I will probably buy an affordable LATHE (!)
:devil::devil::devil:


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## StefanFS (Apr 23, 2008)

jetset said:


> @ StefanFS
> I´m not quite sure if you driver-solution offers multiple brightness???
> is that possible at all with your solution?
> 
> jetset


 
It's a multimode driver, known as SKU 7612 in the shop Dealextreme . com. The one I used has the following user interface groups:

Low (10%) - Mid (35%) - High (100%) - Strobe - SOS
Low (10%) - Mid (35%) - High (100%)

Low (10%) - Mid (35%) - High (100%) - Fast Strobe - Slow Strobe (3Hz) - Super Slow Strobe (1Hz) - SOS

I like group 2, but appreciate the option for strobe if it ever would be needed.


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## jetset (Apr 23, 2008)

so you CAN use different output with your P7???
what sais the ampere-meter for the different modes?
did you measure the lumens also?

just to understand right: is it "Low (10%) - Mid (35%) - High (100%) - OFF" ? by pressing the button?

jetset


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## StefanFS (Apr 23, 2008)

jetset said:


> so you CAN use different output with your P7???
> what sais the ampere-meter for the different modes?
> did you measure the lumens also?
> 
> ...


 
*On a fresh D-size LiION 5Ah cell. *
Low: 0.17A
Medium: 0.68A
High: 2.40A

With this driver the battery draw and what the led sees are pretty much the same, at least when voltage in is kept between lowest vf of the led to around 4.5 Volt. With a big cell(or big NiMH cells) the drive current is at max spec for the drivers.

A conservative estimation based on lightbox measurements with and without the lights head and compared to known lights like my ~260 lumen led throwers. It's more than 700 lumen out the lens, more likely it's over 750 lumen out that window. The CSXPI bin emitters I bought from LiteMania seem to be exceptionally bright and at the top of the bin. I'm wary of publishing lumen figures as opinions abound, let's just say it's my rough estimation based on my short and shallow experience with flashlights.

In this thread I mod the 1D Mag mentioned here in this post:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/195358

Stefan


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## Buck (Apr 23, 2008)

StefanFS said:


> It should work very well. Even three AA eneloop works quite well, but for a shorter time of course.
> Stefan



How much heat is produced by 3 cell direct drive? Do you think it would melt the body or cook the LED if I mounted on a heat sink inside one of these:
http://www.pelican-cases-flashlights.com/2000-Pelican-super-sabre-lite.htm

I'd use it for short bursts or when immersed in 10° C sea water...


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## StefanFS (Apr 24, 2008)

Buck said:


> How much heat is produced by 3 cell direct drive? Do you think it would melt the body or cook the LED if I mounted on a heat sink inside one of these:
> http://www.pelican-cases-flashlights.com/2000-Pelican-super-sabre-lite.htm
> 
> I'd use it for short bursts or when immersed in 10° C sea water...


 
I recommend using a metal flashlight in which the heatsink has a thermal path to the body of the light. The air in the pelican would act as a buffer to keep the heat inside the light? Maybe if you underdrive the P7 severely?
Stefan


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## jetset (Apr 24, 2008)

thanks a lot for the links StefanFS.

don´t you use glow in the dark powder because of space being too small?
or does the P7 not need it?
what is the purpous of glow in the dark? (couldn´t find the answer in the forum)

jetset


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## StefanFS (Apr 24, 2008)

jetset, 
I used GITD powder and clear epoxy on my 3D Mag becuase it looks nice. I haven't done that on the 1D Mag yet.
Stefan


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## StefanFS (May 23, 2008)

New SSC P7 beamshots with all my regulated Maglite builds in this thread:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/198549


Stefan


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## giuseppevane (Sep 25, 2009)

hi StefanFS i have a question for you..
I bought a flashlight on precisely 
DealExtreme SKU 22569 MTE SF-23 with LED p7d.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.22569 
then I did not like her because I wanted more throw so I tried to make the reflector smooth but I have made the situation worse because less light the torch fires ,as possible?. What should I do to have more throw? reflector which should I buy? 
thanks. Hello.


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