# First try at [email protected] Mod...



## AtomicX (Dec 19, 2005)

Well, the items are all together for an attempt. I have a Modamag 9AA-3D holder, and a potted WA1185, glass lens. Still realize an Alum reflector will be needed after the holidays and I cannot run the light more than 20-30 sec at a time, but wanted to amaze myself with a preview of the potential of the beast. Did I miss something? :huh2: I am using 9 AA-Nimh ( 2100 Mah Energizer brand ) and I did the switch spring mod, soldered in the wick cap-cap. The thing is barely brighter than the other mag 3D light on the desk with 4 "c" cell x 1.2 volt with the RS XPR103 bulb. They are about even. I have two lights here in front of me...a 4.8 volt and a 10.8 volt and I cannot see much difference. *But*, my MAgCharger with WA1160 is way- way brighter than both. Friends, are there details I forgot? I have tried this on two 3D hosts with the same results. The battery pack , when outside the units without load measures 11.4 V , batteries were charged about 7 days ago in a smartcharger and refreshed, then rested a five days. I have cleaned up threads on tailcap and sprayed with contact cleaner and the switches are in securely ( I realized the allen screw was responsible for a contact for the swithc. Anybody had any problems completing this mod with success before or know what might be to blame ? :help: I expected an amazing result...hehehe...boy was I amazed at how "normal" it looked. I'd love to get this done and see a flamethrower so I can justify ordering that LOP reflecor :sweat: Any help will be appreciated.


----------



## AtomicX (Dec 20, 2005)

Does anyone have experience with these energizer batteries brand Nimh ?


----------



## Grox (Dec 20, 2005)

Just thinking here for a moment. 

There is nothing inherently wrong with the batteries you have chosen - you have a good brand and a good capacity! Well done. Unless one or more of the cells has a problem that is.

I think you need to charge the batteries. Fresh charged batteries should be measuring 1.4V each whereas yours are round about 1.27V each. Your batteries are moderately discharged. Coz the bulb draws so much current, the cells sag way beneath 1.27V each and your bulb goes very dim. So give em a charge and try it out again. (I had this problem with mine too!!) When I put my pack into the '85 I like it to be above 12.0V. I know you're risking instaflash but an unfortunate sideproduct of charging is that the initial voltage will increase.

One other thing you might want to try is to check the batteries themselves - sometimes the contacts (nipple and base) can get dirty (also had this problem). Before you turn it on, make sure you clean the bulb with isopropyl alcohol and point it away from you when you turn it on in case the bulb decides to explode! (I'm sure you already know this.)

I don't have any experience with the switch mod but I assume since the bulb lights dully that there isn't that much of a problem there.

Good luck and congratulations on taking the first few steps!

Looking forward to hearing how you go!


----------



## AtomicX (Dec 20, 2005)

I have a second set of batteries charged 2 days ago. I will try them, hope the dreaded instaflash doesnt happen because right now I havent got any spare bulbs. The potted bulbs are costly, anybody know if I can swap in a MagCharger switch ? I just asked this same question in another thread (all switches are not created equal) and am really wanting to put in a switch like my MagCharger has so I can order a few bi-pin bulbs at a lower cost. Thanks for your reply... I'll post results after trying the other set. Those are 2500 Mah.


----------



## VWTim (Dec 20, 2005)

I usually just make sure the batteries for my 85 and 74 have sat for a couple hours, haven't had any instaflash yet.


----------



## AtomicX (Dec 20, 2005)

Well....Woweee. I changed out the set and put in my spare set, never would have thought that a week sittignwould drop the "under load" voltage like that but the other set was 12.14 V no-load and the light is a tad *brighter* than my [email protected] now (with wa1160) so that's more like it! Thank you for the suggestion from "down under" !! I am going to see if anyone knows about the swap-in-ability of a MagCharger switch befor I buy one. But I really want to dump the PR based switch. I just feel it's inferior unless modded with the not-presently-available KIU kit. Thanks again !! :rock:


----------



## Icebreak (Dec 20, 2005)

I think Grox is correct straight up and straight down.

Two hosts and no joy? Not likely your switch mods. Not likely Modamag's excellent holder. Likely a single cell or cells. Measure them individually. If they don't reach 1.40V + there is something wrong. I like to see 1.42 - 1.46V. I've seen 1.49 Volts hot of the charger, 1.38 - 1.42 after resting them for 10 minutes.

Also, that smart charger is great but I've had difficulty with good contact with non-nippled cells. BullseyeBill figured it out for me. I used Emilion's rare earth magnets on the anode to get the good connect. But those are CBP1650 non-nippled cells. Yours are nippled so when Grox says clean 'em up, that's good advice. Erasor or maybe a quick buffing with very light sandpaper.

Do you know how to cycle your batts on that charger? I didn't. SilverFox explained it to me. Each batt has it's own channel feeding it. If you test a batt and it has unacceptable voltage you can cycle it seperately while you charge other cells. Stick that low charged one batt or two or what ever in the charger. Hold that red button down about 30 seconds and the leds on the channels feeding the cells will start blinking. This means that the channels are draining the cells safely and at the end of the drain the channels will automatically charge the cells back up to optimum voltage. The unoccupied channels can be used, at the same, to re-charge the good batts by simply loading the channels with the good cells. Those channels will show red leds not blinking.

Properly charged, the Mag85 should be a little startling. There are better batts than those 2100s but they should be able to pound out enough lumens to cause you to say, "whoa! That's bright!".


----------



## AtomicX (Dec 20, 2005)

Thanks for the details on the charger Icebreak. I always thought it was cycle all or cycle none. Thats a good trick. I was afraid of "instaflash" on the bulb, thats why I had tried the ones that were charged a week back and the pack had an 11.4 V unloaded, thought it was still risking instaflash. Now I know it should be over 12 V and was actually somewhere (if memory serves correct) arounf 12.2 or in that area at least. Does it matter if the batteries just sit after charge on a desk, or if they are "loaded" into the pack to rest ??? I will probably use my set of 2500 Mah mostly on this light, I had grabbed the lesser 2100's because they were rested more. Should I load the pack and let it sit an hour or two after a charge session?? Thanks in advance..by the way, I still want to go bi-pin with this setup.


----------



## nirad (Dec 20, 2005)

By the way the bi-pin switch out of the Mag Charger will work. That is what I have in my setup, but I am still looking for a charger though.

What kind of charger are you using to charge your cells with???


----------



## AtomicX (Dec 20, 2005)

Hi Nirad... I am using the "Modamag" design holder for the AA cells, which requires unscrewing the tailcap, removing the pack and putting the individual cells in a 10 bay charger. I think I may spring for a Fivemega design and a new charger though if it turns out I use the light a lot. Nice to know the M2gCharger unit (switch) will fit. I'll have to get me one of those after the holidays, it will pay for itself in potted bulb costs over time and I will be able to center bulbs better. Thanks for the info... :wave: Just doing a little research here so i dont spend on things that wont work.


----------



## Icebreak (Dec 20, 2005)

AtomicX -

10 minutes rest works for me, loaded or unloaded. YMMV.

Also, I made a whopping mistake. Wrong charger. I was thinking the Vanson Smart Charger also known as the Speedy Box and Speedy charger or *BC1HU.*


----------



## daBear (Dec 20, 2005)

AtomicX said:


> Hi Nirad... I am using the "Modamag" design holder for the AA cells, which requires unscrewing the tailcap, removing the pack and putting the individual cells in a 10 bay charger. *I think I may spring for a Fivemega design and a new charger though if it turns out I use the light a lot.* Nice to know the M2gCharger unit (switch) will fit. I'll have to get me one of those after the holidays, it will pay for itself in potted bulb costs over time and I will be able to center bulbs better. Thanks for the info... :wave: Just doing a little research here so i dont spend on things that wont work.


 
When I checked with 5M last week about a 9AA to 3D battery holder we was out and said he had no plans for another run. :mecry:


----------



## DUQ (Dec 20, 2005)

Nirad- the bi pin switch from a Mag charger with fit into a Mag 3D? If so, how much do they $


----------



## wtraymond (Dec 20, 2005)

The batteries you're using for this flashlight are really not the correct batteries for this application. I haven't done much incan modding, but I know that the internal resistance of the high-capacity cells is too high for high drain lights like the Mag85. You really should be using special low resistance, high drain cells for this light.

The high capacity cells you're using are the primary reason you're not getting the output you expected. The Sanyo 2100s and Energizer 2500s have excellent capacity but are rated for their respective capacities at relatively low current draw (less than 1amp). The CBP 1650s that most modders use for this flashlight have a special chemistry that minimizes internal resistance at the expense of some capacity. These are rated for 20+amps of current draw and maintain close to 1.2vdc at that current draw. The high capacity batteries, like yours, drop voltage significantly over 1 amp draw and this is the reason you're not getting full output.

You can get the high drain, low internal resistance batteries from CheapBatteryPacks.com. They come in lots of sizes and capacities and have helpful descriptions to help you choose the best for your application. I suspect the new 'A' size 2500mah may fit into a bored 2D and will give you the improved capacity you're looking for as well as the low internal resistance needed for the Mag85.


----------



## Grox (Dec 20, 2005)

wtraymond said:


> The batteries you're using for this flashlight are really not the correct batteries for this application. I haven't done much incan modding, but I know that the internal resistance of the high-capacity cells is too high for high drain lights like the Mag85. You really should be using special low resistance, high drain cells for this light.
> 
> The high capacity cells you're using are the primary reason you're not getting the output you expected. The Sanyo 2100s and Energizer 2500s have excellent capacity but are rated for their respective capacities at relatively low current draw (less than 1amp). The CBP 1650s that most modders use for this flashlight have a special chemistry that minimizes internal resistance at the expense of some capacity. These are rated for 20+amps of current draw and maintain close to 1.2vdc at that current draw. The high capacity batteries, like yours, drop voltage significantly over 1 amp draw and this is the reason you're not getting full output.
> 
> You can get the high drain, low internal resistance batteries from CheapBatteryPacks.com. They come in lots of sizes and capacities and have helpful descriptions to help you choose the best for your application. I suspect the new 'A' size 2500mah may fit into a bored 2D and will give you the improved capacity you're looking for as well as the low internal resistance needed for the Mag85.



Ginseng was reccommending the sanyo/energiser 2100mah cells for the mag85. I think that it's actually quite common to run the 85 with good quality consumer cells (the 85 was originally designed for consumer nimh). The CBP1650s are a step up current-wise but don't have nipples on the cell and have the problem that you need to run 8 instead of 9 because of instaflash. There's also the runtime tradeoff. In my opinion the sanyo/energiser cells are fine for the 85. Silverfox's charts confirm this.

As long as good quality consumer NiMh cells are used the 85 will run fine. Yes, it is pushing the cells but the light was designed that way and works well in that configuration.

AtomicX, one consideration with NiMh cells is that current and capacity are inversely related. This is due to the spiral construction of the battery. So as you get higher capacity cells, the spirals are tucked tighter and the cell can't put out as high a current. So you trade off current (and brightness) for capacity. This is a problem with most 2500+mAh cells. IIRC 2100mah-2300mah was thought to be the sweet spot runtime vs brightness.


----------



## BVH (Dec 20, 2005)

wtraymond is correct in that the Sanyo 2100's, while OK for this WA1185 application, will not give you the spectacular result you expected. Not even if you're using a WA1274. I have two different vintages of Sanyo 2100's and neither holds a candle (when fully charged and used in modamags 9AA to D holder) to the brightness produced by the CBP 1650's. However, I also have lots of Titanium 2600's and although they are high capacity, they are able to provide a high amperage flow - enough to provide an 1185 brightness darn near the 1650's. Although somewhat tight, they do fit in the modamag holder in an unbored mag and with the 2600 rating, give a nice run time. These, in my opinion are great cells! You'll be amazed at the difference high amperage flow batteries make.


----------



## wtraymond (Dec 20, 2005)

Another alternative is to purchase Emilion's new 'D' size li-ion cells. Although they are expensive at $12.50 each, you only need three of them and there's no need for a battery holder or any modification to the Maglight body. Capacity of these is in the neighborhood of 5000mah so runtime should be more than double any of the AA battery packs.

Large unprotected li-ions cells are not for newbies or for inexperienced, occasional, or casual users. Use these with great caution. Inexpensive protection circuits capable of 5-8.5amps draw can be had at Batteryspace.com.


----------



## andrewwynn (Dec 20, 2005)

i did manage to instaflash two 1185s from CPB1650s within about 5 days.. the cells were rested after charging.. but i had used the combination for months before that happened.. the ambient temp was 10 deg. cooler than i'd typically used it in the past, and wondered if that had anything to do with things.

I used the KIU socket which has similar resistance to the prfix hack i made up to minimize the resistance of a standard PR switch... and most people admit the 1185 is fairly resilient to the combination, though i was tired of blowing bulbs so now my lights all get regulators other than the 1111/7.2 which i think i'll see if i can keep getting away with direct drive. I did do some testing with the 1312 at 14.4V and at almost 800 bulb lumen that is a very promising setup.. very high voltage so very low resistance losses! 

The D size LiONs do show some promise.. until we get them it's anybody's guess what the voltage will be under load.. they say they are 60mohm per cell.. but what is the internal voltage? if it's 4.2.. than there is no way you'll be able to run the 1185 w/o regulator.. if it's 3.7.. than after dropping the 0.6V from the internal resistance and get 10.0V at the lamp (another 0.1 from the switch) you will not be impressed with the output. 

I'm taking a gamble that it's more toward the former.. and i'll need my regulator to keep the voltage at bay.. i will be very happy if i'm correct.. it means running a mag85 for about 90 minutes in a 3D host.. or running and 1111 for 80+ minutes in a 2D host. Only time will tell if the gamble will pay off.. but in the 'worst case' scenario.. i can run the 1060 from 2 cells and just regulate to 6.6V and have plenty of overhead.. or.. running the 35W osram at 7.0V also works exceptionally well. (that combo is just as much light as an 1185 running at 11.1 V!). 

love hainvg new possibilities on the horizon! 

-awr


----------



## Grox (Dec 20, 2005)

Alrighty then. I might have to try the amondotech 2600s sometime then!


----------



## BVH (Dec 20, 2005)

Andrew, when are you going to break loose with some of those regulators?


----------



## Icebreak (Dec 20, 2005)

That's where to get the Titanium 2600, right? Thanks, Grox.


----------



## BVH (Dec 20, 2005)

Icebreak, no. Get them at amondotech.com


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Dec 20, 2005)

I simply MUST speak up on the switch thing! 

The only part of a M*gcharger switch that we use in standard D M*gs is the Bi-Pin slug from the switch. The switch itself uses a totally different way of installing into the light.

FiveMega (Damn him!) has meltproof ceramic bi-pin adapters at $30 each that is nearly as cost effective as buying the MC switch.

And by the way, I run 2100 Energizers for the most part and I ain't hurting for bright with my lights!


----------



## BVH (Dec 20, 2005)

PBJS, I had problems with the stock Mag bi-pin slug smoking/melting from the heat from the glass tit between the bulb contacts on the 1185 even when raising the bulb as high as I could above the plastic. It took about 4-6 minutes if I remember right. Thats why I went to the KIU's.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Dec 20, 2005)

I am well aware of that. I was sent some heat resistent Mica which I made a sheild from. T'was the end of my smoking problem. 

So very sorry I didn't mention it!!!


----------



## Icebreak (Dec 20, 2005)

Thanks, BVH. That was @ Grox's post. But really...thanks. Lot's of stuff to remember.

Like I think someone is working on a regulation ckt. but I'm not sure I remember who though.:thinking: Lessee...Ummm first name starts with an A and last name starts with an R. Maybe they'll post and tell me.


----------



## AtomicX (Dec 21, 2005)

Yeah guys, I was thinking about Mica heat sheild mat'l too. I would like to know how different the bipin Magcharger switch is and if it will indeed work and install into a standard 3D host (or 2D ) and do it without a problem. Otherwise I wil stick with a standard switch and just replace my old tired one with a new replacement ( or maybe buy a new host, mine's from the late 80's) and add a Fivemega bipin adapter. I know ceramic is extremely heat proof but was kinda wondering how duable it will be against cracking during bulb changes. Is the ceramic holding up well, those of you who have these? able to center bulbs without any troubles? If this is indeed the best way I will eagerly purchase one I just wasn't sure because they are still kinda new and I haven't heard (read) much feedback on them yet. I got a piece of mica on ebay for a few bucks, hopefully I can cut out a few shields succesfully for my other light, the Magcharger. I have not dissasembled that to see the construction of the switch, and do not want to mess with it, since it works so flawlessly and with the 1160 bulb it's a nice beam too. I have to give Fivemega credit :wave: for the excellent LOP reflector within that light....cleans it up nicely. Well, I may be buying some titanium cells now, seems high capacity and higher current can happen with the right cells....thanks for the battery tips everyone. :naughty: I think I may try and rest the cells more than 15 min though. Until I get this thing going bi-pin I want to protect the potted 1185 a bit. Kinda pricey and I only have the one. Time for a bipin solution....the ceramic adapter the best option ???durability ?? or MC switch and mica shields ??


----------



## Icebreak (Dec 21, 2005)

Most of my Hotwires are made from potted lamps I got from Wilkey or Greg.

I don't have the Kiu switch but it is regarded to be a premium solution.

I do have the Five Mega adapter. It is very nice. It has two tiny tubes (can't remember the technical term) that are soldered to the PR base. The PR base is a custom machined piece. Then the base is filled with ceramic potting. The pins fit into the tiny tubes. So it's not metal stuck in hard mud. Very solid design. No problems with it. Centering is not a problem though I like centering the Carley potted Ginseng and Litho123 lamps better. I should probably buy a couple more FM bi-pin adapters.

I have zero experience with the MC bi-pin holder. I've heard of success stories with the mica shields. I'm not very excited by that solution.

Please keep your 80's Mag.


----------



## AtomicX (Dec 21, 2005)

Thanks for the report on the bipin adapter. I think I'll have to get one of those as soon as some spare cash (right after the holidays) becomes available. Just for FYI, my [email protected] has no problems with heat with the 1160 bulb, but I have not run it for extended (over 6 or 8 min.) purposely because I haven't cut the mica yet. I may do it tomorrow. I think my Fivemega reflecor is absorbing more heat than the stock one would in that application. I am also going to try the ROP mod soon. I will be converting this old maglight back to stock (but with 5 C Nimh and a RS XPR103) and taking the host for that one for my mag85 use, since its newer and the parts are like new. I'll do the switch mod over on this one, but more completely like Andrewwinn's directions show. Gotta buy a 2D host now in either Pewter or Ice blue for the ROP mod after the holidays. I'll fix the switch on that one too :wow: Well, it's late, flashaholics need sleep too. Job interview tomorrow, wish me luck , so I can afford more lights :naughty:


----------



## Icebreak (Dec 21, 2005)

If they are interviewing you right during the holiday season they are truely interested. It's probalby a good group. Take a nice snooze tonight then go ahead and accept your new job tomorrow. It's OK to look at the girls.


----------



## 3rd_shift (Dec 21, 2005)

> Another alternative is to purchase Emilion's new 'D' size li-ion cells. Although they are expensive at $12.50 each, you only need three of them and there's no need for a battery holder or any modification to the Maglight body. Capacity of these is in the neighborhood of 5000mah so runtime should be more than double any of the AA battery packs.
> 
> 
> > Wha-wha-what? :eeksign:
> ...


----------



## andrewwynn (Dec 21, 2005)

hope to have them coming off the assembly line mid-january.


----------



## nirad (Dec 21, 2005)

DUQ --- I bought my switches at cases4less.com . The part number is 108-106 and are about 10.50 a pop. Look under replacement parts for the mag charger and scroll down to the bottom. These are bi-pin switches by the way.


----------



## jashhash (Dec 21, 2005)

> hope to have them coming off the assembly line mid-january.



Thank goodness. A regulation circuit for incandescents is even more crucial than LED regulation. A little too much voltage & your bulb insta-flashes. Too low and you lose most of your brightness (and efficiency). Theres such a small voltage range for optimal performance.


----------



## andrewwynn (Dec 21, 2005)

that's what i thought.. i was very surprised that for years people been trying to finagle matching the right nubmer of cells and this 'silliness' of waiting before using your light, etc.. things are going very well with the progress. 

-awr


----------



## AtomicX (Dec 21, 2005)

Jashhash said it exactly as I had thought of it...instaflash or dim. Precise voltage is an art, but the regulation will be soooooo nice. :naughty:


----------



## andrewwynn (Dec 22, 2005)

yeah i'm a bit of 'gleeful' every time i light up a hotdriver powered light.. my M85 is a 2D mag85.. and the M66 is an 1166 in a 1D host.. i never worry about instaflash anymore. and never worry about over-draining cells.. it's fun to watch the M85 which has the first model with the soft-start.. it's a little overkill taking about a full second to start up, but it's nice because i get such positive feedback that it's doing its job. 

I really like the combinations that stay in regulation for the full cycle.. like the 1166 from a 14.4 solution.. yeah it's only 87% efficient, but start to finish i have 100% brightness 'til the last 20 seconds when it drops to 75% before shutting off. 

The driver is designed specifically to be extreeeemly low resistance (less than just the switch in a stock mag).. so that in the cases like 9AA mag85.. it will be brighter than normal even when not in regulation. 

-awr


----------



## AtomicX (Dec 22, 2005)

Making me drool now, I want to build a Mag85 in a 2D host and I dont care if it takes 1 or 2 seconds to soft start...no instaflash risk is the key....I actually think it will be a cool looking device to take the 1 or 2 seconds and will impress people with the actual action of it coming on and getting so damn bright with a slight delay involved. My Mag85 in the 3D host is ready now....I'm in line ! Now that I will be employed again I will have a few bucks to spare to buy it. been kinda tight over the last 6 weeks. Tomorrow I am going to find some time to swap my '85 into the other host that never had any corrosion. Today I experienced a dead light with Modamags holder, but when I unscrewed the tailcap, slid the pack out a bit, then back in , it LIT up. I may have to find a way to "sleeve" the pack and hold everything in tight. I may try the little velcro wraps used for cable retention with computers. Should be thin enough I hope...dont want to use tape or rubber bands if I can help it. I want , mostly, a RELIABLE BRIGHT light. That mean fixing the battery pack issue and a hotdriver ! That will be SWEET. Thanks for the insight, Andrewwinn. Like I said, I'll be an early adopter of your hotdriver. _Gary


----------



## AtomicX (Dec 22, 2005)

Well so much for modding right now, for a few days at least..cut my hand with a razor tonight by accident. It has to have a few days to seal up well before I can use it with any degree of force. Nice clean cut right to the vain and a little over 1/2 inch, but NOT into the vain so thats a plus. Just barely nicked it. WOW, lucky for that. Pulled it together and butterflied it. Glad I am not starting the new job till' the 2nd of Jan ! I'll swap hosts for the [email protected] as soon as I can and that should because the switch on the older light will not tighten well and the light is about even in brightness with the MC60 right now. From what I read , it should be a good margin brighter, correct ? At least noticably ? ...but it'l be a few day min. Have to do your switch mod at that time, to the newer switch, this one's got a lot less use/years on it. I could not find any contact enhancer around here so I guess I'll have to find somewhere to mail order a small tube...somehow. I'm still salivating about the hotdriver/softstart circuit (sp?) and wanting this one to be impressive when it's done. Was thinking..probably sounds silly, but a heavy duty pot (if there is one good enough) to control brightness and have a variable brightness light would be nifty. It would toss battery life though I bet. Told ya' it was silly. Anyhow, Enjoy the Holiday, everyone.....show off your lights when the sun goes down ! Happy Holidays ! :buddies:


----------

