# Well, so much for Incan support from SureFire



## Brigadier (Jun 22, 2012)

I inquired about some incan items directly to SurFire, and this is what I got:




> Thank you for contacting SureFire.
> 
> The KT4 turbohead for the M3 combatlight and the N3 lamp assembly for the 9AN Turbohead have been discontinued and unfortuantely are no longer available directly from SureFire. However you may be able to find them online through websites such as Ebay or local SureFire dealers in your area.
> 
> ...


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## LGT (Jun 22, 2012)

If the item is discontinued and no longer available through SF. What, exactly, are they supposed to do?


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 23, 2012)

Well you would hope that a quality company promoting a lifetime service warranty would keep a good stock of replacement parts available for a reasonable time for situations like this. I don't remember when they discontinued the M3, but it has not been that long. I think they should at least have spare bulbs, lenses, O-rings, switches as things that are known to wear out for a few years after discontinuation.


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## Snacks (Jun 23, 2012)

i was able to get a replacement z46 head from surefire due to the shock isolation on mine went kaput. Not sure hoe much longer they may have new old stock on hand. 

i'm sad to hear they no longer have support for the kt4 heads


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## Silgt (Jun 23, 2012)

Yes the M3 incan has been replaced and not longer in their catalog, but many have bought SF lights for their customer service and warantty so yes, it would be reasonable to assumed that they would have maintained a considerable spares for the common replacement parts for their discontinued lights! If I go back to Patek Philippe or Rolex for my broken watch, they will have spares or is able to built new parts to service my watches...THAT is a good after-sales customer service!


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## Justin Case (Jun 23, 2012)

LuxLuthor said:


> Well you would hope that a quality company promoting a lifetime service warranty would keep a good stock of replacement parts available for a reasonable time for situations like this. I don't remember when they discontinued the M3, but it has not been that long. I think they should at least have spare bulbs, lenses, O-rings, switches as things that are known to wear out for a few years after discontinuation.



Based on the OP's post, it isn't quite clear if the contact was for a warranty claim or simply to purchase incan products. It seemed like the latter to me.


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## angelofwar (Jun 23, 2012)

Justin Case said:


> Based on the OP's post, it isn't quite clear if the contact was for a warranty claim or simply to purchase incan products. It seemed like the latter to me.



I'm with you on this one Justin


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## Brigadier (Jun 23, 2012)

It was to purchase new, not warranty. But what does that matter? If you need a bulb, you need a bulb, and replacement bulbs for my 9ANT are no longer available. Bad form on SureFire's part.


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## nbp (Jun 23, 2012)

That's true. It's not reasonable to expect that everyone out there using a SF incan is just going to throw away or upgrade their incan lights just because the light is discontinued. Some of those weaponlights are super expensive, replacing it may not be an option. But without bulbs, they're useless. Seems weird to me too. :thinking:


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## Justin Case (Jun 23, 2012)

Presumably, SF has a reasonable estimate of warranty claim rate based on historical data. That would guide how much rermaining stock to maintain for X years. They've clearly exited the retail incan sales segment, so to expect SF to cover both with what is clearly limited stock seems unreasonable. That would leave insufficient supply for warranty support.


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## Silgt (Jun 23, 2012)

any idea how long have SF discontinued all their incan lineup?


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## nbp (Jun 23, 2012)

Justin Case said:


> Presumably, SF has a reasonable estimate of warranty claim rate based on historical data. That would guide how much rermaining stock to maintain for X years. They've clearly exited the retail incan sales segment, so to expect SF to cover both with what is clearly limited stock seems unreasonable. That would leave insufficient supply for warranty support.



Bulbs aren't covered under warranty anyways, so they would only be used for retail. At any rate, there are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of their incan lights out there in use currently. If they soon do stop manufacturing all incan parts, do they really think that all those people are going to splurge on LED replacement heads (some of which are near the cost a whole new light)? I think a lot of those lights will just get shelved and people will look for something else.

They could continue to manufacture bulbs, even if the lights than they go in are discontinued, I suppose, as they obviously have a finite life expectancy.


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## Justin Case (Jun 23, 2012)

nbp said:


> Bulbs aren't covered under warranty anyways, so they would only be used for retail. At any rate, there are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of their incan lights out there in use currently. If they soon do stop manufacturing all incan parts, do they really think that all those people are going to splurge on LED replacement heads (some of which are near the cost a whole new light)? I think a lot of those lights will just get shelved and people will look for something else.
> 
> They could continue to manufacture bulbs, even if the lights than they go in are discontinued, I suppose, as they obviously have a finite life expectancy.



I've contacted SF at least twice on P60 lamps that failed out of the gate. Both were covered by SF -- they shipped out free, replacement P60 lamps. That looks very much like warranty service on bulbs to me.

If there is a market vacuum that is worth filling, someone will fill it. Maybe they'll call their company Lumens Factory or something like that.


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## LE6920 (Jun 23, 2012)

Misleading thread is misleading.

There is a big difference in SF not selling you discontinued items any longer, and SF doing warranty work on a discontinued item. 

SF has done a ton of warranty work on long discontinued ican lights in my personal observation. 

This is really something you worry about? 




Brigadier said:


> It was to purchase new, not warranty. But what does that matter? If you need a bulb, you need a bulb, and replacement bulbs for my 9ANT are no longer available. Bad form on SureFire's part.


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## Justin Case (Jun 23, 2012)

Amazingly, I followed the advice given in the SureFire customer service letter to check the web, ran a Google search for "surefire N3 lamp", and came up with a hit on the very top link. TFE.


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## LGT (Jun 23, 2012)

LE6920 said:


> Misleading thread is misleading.
> 
> There is a big difference in SF not selling you discontinued items any longer, and SF doing warranty work on a discontinued item.
> 
> ...


Agreed. That may very well be the case. And it makes a lot of sense that SF wouldn't sell off their incan stock and not be able to fulfill their lifetime warranty.


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## Patriot (Jun 24, 2012)

Might be time to replentish my spare bulb needs with some Lumens Factory bulbs.


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## mat_the_cat (Jun 25, 2012)

Justin Case said:


> I've contacted SF at least twice on P60 lamps that failed out of the gate. Both were covered by SF -- they shipped out free, replacement P60 lamps. That looks very much like warranty service on bulbs to me.
> 
> If there is a market vacuum that is worth filling, someone will fill it. Maybe they'll call their company Lumens Factory or something like that.


I believe they don't have a legal obligation to cover bulbs under warranty, but have done so in your case as a goodwill gesture. That's certainly the case over here with a UK light manufacturer I deal with - their terms state that batteries and bulbs are no covered under warranty, but that they will "look favourably" on claims within a few month of purchase. (And they did offer to replace my battery after just under a year).

If there is a demand, _someone_ (like LF) will be along to fill it, so I'm not worrying just yet!


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## fyrstormer (Jun 25, 2012)

Patriot said:


> Might be time to replentish my spare bulb needs with some Lumens Factory bulbs.


I was going to suggest this.

Surefire seems to be trying to make a clean break from their older products, and making the (very safe) assumption that the aftermarket will continue to supply replacement parts for the foreseeable future. It's not like Surefire hasn't noticed that kits are available to replace just about every part of their lights with replacements of equal or better quality.


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## BenChiew (Jun 25, 2012)

If the OP is trying to upgrade the M3 with a turbo head which only comes with a M3T, then I think Surefire is doing the right thing to reserve those heads for warranty on the M3T. 

I for one own a M3T and I will surely be pissed if Surefire sold the turbo heads and not kept them for potential warranty work.

Plus I must state that Surefire has always fulfill their warranty obligations as far as I am concerned. 

In my experience with them, they have replaced parts for very early models and have exchanged later models for imperfect lights. They even FedEx it back to me half way round the globe to me. All at their expense. 

I have no hesitation to buy Surefire even if they cost more per lumen of output. 

For people that say Surefire is expensive, I say you don't earn enough.


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## Justin Case (Jun 25, 2012)

mat_the_cat said:


> I believe they don't have a legal obligation to cover bulbs under warranty, but have done so in your case as a goodwill gesture. That's certainly the case over here with a UK light manufacturer I deal with - their terms state that batteries and bulbs are no covered under warranty, but that they will "look favourably" on claims within a few month of purchase. (And they did offer to replace my battery after just under a year).



Normal bulb failure is not covered since it is a wear and tear item. But that's not what my example addressed.

I was discussing abnormal bulb failure, i.e., infant mortality. That is covered under the guarantee that "SureFire warrants our illumination tools, edged weapons, and pen products to be free from defects in workmanship and materials, including any LEDs housed within, for the lifetime of the original owner." If a bulb burns out on first use fresh out of the package, I'd say the buyer has a very strong case that the product was not free from defect and thus is covered under warranty.


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## Brigadier (Jun 25, 2012)

Justin Case said:


> Normal bulb failure is not covered since it is a wear and tear item. But that's not what my example addressed.
> 
> I was discussing abnormal bulb failure, i.e., infant mortality. That is covered under the guarantee that "SureFire warrants our illumination tools, edged weapons, and pen products to be free from defects in workmanship and materials, including any LEDs housed within, for the lifetime of the original owner." If a bulb burns out on first use fresh out of the package, I'd say the buyer has a very strong case that the product was not free from defect and thus is covered under warranty.



I had that happen with a brand new N90 bulb for my 9AN. Installed it, turned it on, and it shattered. sent the whole head unit to SF and it was replaced as the lens and reflector were also damaged by the poof.


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## Brigadier (Jun 25, 2012)

Benchiew said:


> If the OP is trying to upgrade the M3 with a turbo head which only comes with a M3T, then I think Surefire is doing the right thing to reserve those heads for warranty on the M3T.
> 
> I for one own a M3T and I will surely be pissed if Surefire sold the turbo heads and not kept them for potential warranty work.
> 
> ...



I can see their point on the KT4, but on the N3? No more bulbs for the 9ANT's?


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## Justin Case (Jun 25, 2012)

Brigadier said:


> I can see their point on the KT4, but on the N3? No more bulbs for the 9ANT's?



Why do you persist in pushing this? Do a web search for the N3 and you'll probably find a link to a well-known vendor that sells the N3 for $20 below retail. So even if SF still sold incan products, you'd be paying retail and thus most likely would be looking elsewhere anyway.


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## ABTOMAT (Jun 25, 2012)

Justin Case said:


> Why do you persist in pushing this? Do a web search for the N3 and you'll probably find a link to a well-known vendor that sells the N3 for $20 below retail. So even if SF still sold incan products, you'd be paying retail and thus most likely would be looking elsewhere anyway.



But if SF's stopped making N3s, you won't have an OEM option once the supply current out there gets used up.


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## fishndad (Jun 25, 2012)

Justin Case said:


> Why do you persist in pushing this? Do a web search for the N3 and you'll probably find a link to a well-known vendor that sells the N3 for $20 below retail. So even if SF still sold incan products, you'd be paying retail and thus most likely would be looking elsewhere anyway.



Not sure but.
1-Does surefire have a responsibility to replace bulbs even after they discontinue building incan lights.
2-is there a lenght of time after purchase there incan bulbs are covered under warranty.


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## angelofwar (Jun 26, 2012)

fishndad said:


> Not sure but.
> 1-Does surefire have a responsibility to replace bulbs even after they discontinue building incan lights.
> 2-is there a lenght of time after purchase there incan bulbs are covered under warranty.



Bulbs are not covered by warranty. Never have been, AFAIK. They will (did) replace them on occasion. They did for me. I asked nicely of course. So, if you do get a bulb replaced under warranty, consider it a goodwill gesture from them.


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## [email protected] (Jun 26, 2012)

This reminds me of the ever dwindling almost non existent N90 lamp assemblies out there... perhaps some expired assemblies to modify/experiment with might be a better option... where to source such a beast? :thinking:



I'm glad my A2 needs have been addressed for the next few years, streamlight bi-pins (FM adapter) and MA-02 lamps :thumbsup:


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## Brigadier (Jun 27, 2012)

Justin Case said:


> Why do you persist in pushing this? Do a web search for the N3 and you'll probably find a link to a well-known vendor that sells the N3 for $20 below retail. So even if SF still sold incan products, you'd be paying retail and thus most likely would be looking elsewhere anyway.





ABTOMAT said:


> But if SF's stopped making N3s, you won't have an OEM option once the supply current out there gets used up.



Exactly!!!! Justin, you are being awfully short sighted.


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## yellow (Jun 27, 2012)

well, how about thinking it over?
A big manufacturer of very special - thats what they are, all of them, even 6P and such - flashlights decides to discontinue some of the product line,
and thus, some time later, there are no parts available any more ...

*What might that mean?*

... possibly that DEMAND is not that high as You all think?

If there still were money to make, the items would be made ...


PS: I highly doubt that anyone will build replacements on a higher production volume than _handmade_ - at least with that boring "regional representative" policy that is soooo common here.
They will be sued to death ...


PS: that does not mean I am not feeling with You.
I just was "lucky" never to use models of a big output class, so a led, in a tint I like, easily could replace my SFs


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## Justin Case (Jun 27, 2012)

Brigadier said:


> Exactly!!!! Justin, you are being awfully short sighted.



Short sighted? Who is the one that needs lamps that have been discontinued and who should have purchased a supply before SF got out of the incan segment? It was well-known that they were exiting the incan business for many months prior. For my orphan SF 8NX, I have plenty of X80 lamps and B90 battery sticks because *I planned ahead*. SF gave you good advice at this late date, which you don't seem to want to accept. Find the N3 in the retail market. I conducted a simple web search and found a ready source for the N3 lamp, just as SF suggested, and at $20 less than SF's retail price. Of course, if you keep dithering, you'll miss the boat again.

Regardless, it is a reality of business that products eventually reach their end of life. It's called obsolescence. Expecting an infinite supply of spare parts is simply unrealistic. I certainly don't expect Texas Instruments to keep an inventory of BP-1A battery packs for my old TI-59 calculator, nor Sony to keep cranking out 1.44MB 3.5" floppy diskettes.


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## Justin Case (Jun 27, 2012)

ABTOMAT said:


> But if SF's stopped making N3s, you won't have an OEM option once the supply current out there gets used up.



Well, better stock up now then so that you can start complaining again in 20 years because SF stopped making the N3 lamp.


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## [email protected] (Jun 28, 2012)

Justin Case said:


> Short sighted? Who is the one that needs lamps that have been discontinued and who should have purchased a supply before SF got out of the incan segment? It was well-known that they were exiting the incan business for many months prior. For my orphan SF 8NX, I have plenty of X80 lamps and B90 battery sticks because *I planned ahead*. SF gave you good advice at this late date, which you don't seem to want to accept. Find the N3 in the retail market. I conducted a simple web search and found a ready source for the N3 lamp, just as SF suggested, and at $20 less than SF's retail price. Of course, if you keep dithering, you'll miss the boat again.




I guess the "window of opportunity" is even smaller for those of us that only recently acquired aging SF incandescent designs... there will always be the potential for enterprising enthusiasts/machinists to offer an aftermarket solution though there would be no guarantee that will always involve an incandescent component


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## angelofwar (Jun 28, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I guess the "window of opportunity" is even smaller for those of us that only recently acquired aging SF incandescent designs... there will always be the potential for enterprising enthusiasts/machinists to offer an aftermarket solution though there would be no guarantee that will always involve an incandescent component



LOL! Slap a Nailbender in it and call it a day!


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## Brigadier (Jun 28, 2012)

Justin,

You sure do assume alot, don't you. You ASSUME I don't have enough lamps for my 9AN/9ANT. You know what happens when you assume? I have plenty, but did you maybe think that this was to test the waters about ongoing support for us incan lovers?

And BTW, yes throwing an LED conversion into an incan will keep it going, but then it's not an incan anymore, is it?



Justin Case said:


> Short sighted? Who is the one that needs lamps that have been discontinued and who should have purchased a supply before SF got out of the incan segment? It was well-known that they were exiting the incan business for many months prior. For my orphan SF 8NX, I have plenty of X80 lamps and B90 battery sticks because *I planned ahead*. SF gave you good advice at this late date, which you don't seem to want to accept. Find the N3 in the retail market. I conducted a simple web search and found a ready source for the N3 lamp, just as SF suggested, and at $20 less than SF's retail price. Of course, if you keep dithering, you'll miss the boat again.
> 
> Regardless, it is a reality of business that products eventually reach their end of life. It's called obsolescence. Expecting an infinite supply of spare parts is simply unrealistic. I certainly don't expect Texas Instruments to keep an inventory of BP-1A battery packs for my old TI-59 calculator, nor Sony to keep cranking out 1.44MB 3.5" floppy diskettes.


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## Justin Case (Jun 28, 2012)

Brigadier said:


> I have plenty, but did you maybe think that this was to test the waters about ongoing support for us incan lovers?




Of course you do and of course you were.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 28, 2012)

Thread has served it purpose, questions were asked, questions were answered. Good info given and some of that taken and not taken. It is now becoming a diversive thread that is starting to lead to impolite posts.

Bill


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