# BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has surpassed HID in my opinion.



## Magio (Oct 16, 2020)

Got my GT94 in the mail today so I took it out and took some quick beam shots of it compared to some of my other lights. In the line up are the Acebeam W30, Thrunite TC20, Thrunite TN40, Tractor Supply 35 watt HID, Firefoxes FF4S, and the GT94 of course. Yes the GT94 is much bigger than the FF4 but the fact that it is so much brighter than one of the brightest HID flashlights out there seems to indicate that LEDs have finally closed the performance gap with HID. Also the GT94 can maintain turbo till the batteries are dead. I don't know of any HID flashlights of any size( and there are some big ones out there) that even comes close to the overall performance of the GT94. It was independently measured at ~20,000 lumens and ~1.5mcd. The pics speak for themselves. Distance to the trees is about ~440ft.


TC20


DSC_4977 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

W30


DSC_4976 by Imagio X1, on Flickr
Tractor Supply 35 watt HID


DSC_4981 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

FireFoxes FF4S (40 watt mode)


DSC_4982 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

FireFoxes FF4S (65watt mode)


DSC_4995 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

TN40


DSC_4979 by Imagio X1, on Flickr
GT94 on turbo


DSC_4983 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

W30 zoomed in


DSC_4987 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

GT94 zoomed in


DSC_4989 by Imagio X1, on Flickr 

GT94 and W30


DSC_4992 by Imagio X1, on Flickr 

GT94 and TN40


DSC_4994 by Imagio X1, on Flickr


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## lumen aeternum (Oct 22, 2020)

*Re: LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

>Got my GT94
Who makes that?

Are all of your example LEP type lights?

When you say "zoomed in" you mean - adjusted for maximum throw? That would be zoomed OUT.

I don't understand why the W30 "zoomed in" has a very bright flood AND a narrow but very bright hotspot.
In contrast to the first W30 image, with a less-bright flood and NO hotspot.


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## richbuff (Oct 22, 2020)

*Re: LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

GT94 is Lumintop. I got mine a few days ago. 

GT94 is four (4) SBT90.2. 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...BLFGT4-loads-of-beam-shots-GT94-NOW-AVAILABLE!

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...90-2-1-65Mcd-Search-Light-with-attached-pics-)


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## Magio (Oct 22, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



lumen aeternum said:


> >Got my GT94
> Who makes that?


Its manufactured by Lumintop but its commonly known as the BLF GT94 as it was a community developed light from the other popular flashlight forum.



lumen aeternum said:


> Are all of your example LEP type lights?


No, only the W30 is an LEP light. The GT94,TC20, and TN40 are LED lights. The Firefoxes FF4 and the Tractor Supply lights are HIDs.



lumen aeternum said:


> When you say "zoomed in" you mean - adjusted for maximum throw? That would be zoomed OUT.
> 
> I don't understand why the W30 "zoomed in" has a very bright flood AND a narrow but very bright hotspot.
> In contrast to the first W30 image, with a less-bright flood and NO hotspot.


"Zoomed in" as in I zoomed in with my camera on the hotspot. The first images were at the wide angle end of the zoom range (24mm full frame) while the zoomed images were at the telephoto end of the zoom range(70mm full frame).

The whole point of my post was to say that there is now an LED light on the market for a comparably cheap price, when compared with the highest performing HID lights, that has substantially more lumens and equal or longer range that can run indefinitely without overheating. There is no HID flashlight that even comes close to my knowledge. Durability wise maybe those very expensive HID lights still have an advantage,I dont know, but performance wise there is no comparison.


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## XeRay (Oct 23, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> The whole point of my post was to say that there is now an LED light on the market for a comparably cheap price, when compared with the highest performing HID lights, that has substantially more lumens and equal or longer range that can run indefinitely without overheating. There is no HID flashlight that even comes close to my knowledge. Durability wise maybe those very expensive HID lights still have an advantage,I dont know, but performance wise there is no comparison.



Does it have active cooling of some kind ? Heat sinking alone can't do it, not even massive heatsinks. 
If it was submerged in water the heatsink fins alone MIGHT be adequate. 
Most of the active cooling you see on units are a joke and an afterthought. 
How do you know it is not dimming after a few minutes ? 
How do you know the LED's are not getting overly hot "overheating" ?
The death of LED's is excessive heat.


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## Magio (Oct 23, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> Does it have active cooling of some kind ? Heat sinking alone can't do it, not even massive heatsinks.
> If it was submerged in water the heatsink fins alone MIGHT be adequate.
> Most of the active cooling you see on units are a joke and an afterthought.
> How do you know it is not dimming after a few minutes ?
> ...


 
I need to make a small correction. I said indefinitely when I should have stated till the batteries are dead. On turbo the batteries are dead in about 15 to 20mins. On the other forum there are guys who tested it and the light reached a maximum temp of 100c before the batteries were depleted. All the internals are rated for 125c and can sustain higher temps for short periods of time. The light is passively cooled and has no fan. It weighs about 8lbs with batteries. The passive cooling is so good in this light that the bigger issue is the battery temperature. The batteries will nearly reach their temperature limit after an extended run on turbo so that's something to be aware of while running the light on turbo.


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## XeRay (Oct 23, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> I need to make a small correction. I said indefinitely when I should have stated till the batteries are dead. On turbo the batteries are dead in about 15 to 20mins. On the other forum there are guys who tested it and the light reached a maximum temp of 100c before the batteries were depleted. All the internals are rated for 125c and can sustain higher temps for short periods of time. The light is passively cooled and has no fan. It weighs about 8lbs with batteries. The passive cooling is so good in this light that the bigger issue is the battery temperature. The batteries will nearly reach their temperature limit after an extended run on turbo so that's something to be aware of while running the light on turbo.



125C = 257F that's well above the boiling point of water at sea level, 100 C is 212 F the boiling point of water. For good life anything above 80C is not desirable, 60 to 80C maximum is much preferred. That's the temperatures at the LED's junction you won't see that externally on the heat sink fins, it will be lower. If its 100C on the fins the LED's are getting far too hot, maybe even 125C or more.
Sounds like this light will burn your hands on the fins after 10 minutes or even less.


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## mrsteel (Oct 23, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

Gotta agree here, that LED is impressive, but impractical compared to an HID spotlight.


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## badtziscool (Oct 23, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

Here we go again. lol! 

I'm starting to think it should be standard practice to define what one means by "surpassed" when making a comparison between LED and HID, and that everyone commenting stick to within that definition.

Having said that. I love the pics! Especially when comparing the W30 to the GT94.


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## Voider of Warranties (Oct 23, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

Yes, Thank you for the beamshots!


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## Hooked on Fenix (Oct 25, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

I think we have a few technologies that compete well with h.i.d.
1. L.e.p. (laser excited phosphor)- a mile of throw but only about 500 lumens
2. Luminous SBT-90 Gen2 l.e.d.- a mile of throw and over 5,000 lumens
3. L.e.p. (light emitting plasma)- 10s of thousands of lumens, bulb the size of a grain of rice (lots of potential for throw), no issues with heat (requires a lot of power though)
I think where h.i.d. still excels is sustained high brightness for an extended runtime.


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## XeRay (Oct 26, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> I need to make a small correction. I said indefinitely when I should have stated till the batteries are dead. On turbo the batteries are dead in about 15 to 20mins. On the other forum there are guys who tested it and the light reached a maximum temp of 100c before the batteries were depleted. All the internals are rated for 125c and can sustain higher temps for short periods of time. The light is passively cooled and has no fan. It weighs about 8lbs with batteries. The passive cooling is so good in this light that the bigger issue is the battery temperature. The batteries will nearly reach their temperature limit after an extended run on turbo so that's something to be aware of while running the light on turbo.





XeRay said:


> 125C = 257F that's well above the boiling point of water at sea level, 100 C is 212 F the boiling point of water. For good life anything above 80C is not desirable, 60 to 80C maximum is much preferred. That's the temperatures at the LED's junction you won't see that externally on the heat sink fins, it will be lower. If its 100C on the fins the LED's are getting far too hot, maybe even 125C or more.
> Sounds like this light will burn your hands on the fins after 10 minutes or even less.



I guess my comments brought us back to reality somewhat.
Each technology has its place. 
Dogmatic black and white statements made earlier in this and past threads on this subject simply don't "cut it".
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion (except in politics and religion :devil, but we all know the saying that "opinions are like ********, everyone has one.


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## Magio (Oct 26, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> I guess my comments brought us back to reality somewhat.
> Each technology has its place.
> Dogmatic black and white statements made earlier in this and past threads on this subject simply don't "cut it".
> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion (except in politics and religion :devil, but we all know the saying that "opinions are like ********, everyone has one.



Lol not at all. I still stick by my comments and I was going to do a run time test on the light in high mode (not turbo) to prove that even at a level where the light stays relatively cool and runs for quite a while it still has more lumens and intensity than either of the HID lights. But during the process one of my batteries failed so it threw off the results. Gonna retry when I sort out the battery situation and post the results.


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## XeRay (Oct 26, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> Lol not at all. I still stick by my comments and I was going to do a run time test on the light in high mode (not turbo) to prove that even at a level where the light stays relatively cool and runs for quite a while it still has more lumens and intensity than either of the HID lights. But during the process one of my batteries failed so it threw off the results. Gonna retry when I sort out the battery situation and post the results.



I'm not gonna hold my breath, without VERY WELL engineered active cooling . . .
Must be up in the realm of 100 watts power draw, maybe higher.


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## lumen aeternum (Oct 27, 2020)

*Re: LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

bump for later


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## lumen aeternum (Oct 27, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> The whole point of my post was to say that there is now an LED light on the market for a comparably cheap price, when compared with the highest performing HID lights, that has substantially more lumens and equal or longer range that can run indefinitely without overheating. There is no HID flashlight that even comes close to my knowledge. Durability wise maybe those very expensive HID lights still have an advantage,I dont know, but performance wise there is no comparison.



But both technologies cost many hundreds of $$$ ? Are all HID lights in that price range?


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## lumen aeternum (Oct 27, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Hooked on Fenix said:


> I think we have a few technologies that compete well with h.i.d.
> 1. L.e.p. (laser excited phosphor)- a mile of throw but only about 500 lumens
> 2. Luminous SBT-90 Gen2 l.e.d.- a mile of throw and over 5,000 lumens
> 3. L.e.p. (light emitting plasma)- 10s of thousands of lumens, bulb the size of a grain of rice (lots of potential for throw), no issues with heat (requires a lot of power though)
> I think where h.i.d. still excels is sustained high brightness for an extended runtime.




Its unfortunate that two different technologies seem to share the same LEP acronym.
Can you give me an example of a plasma flashlight?


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## XeRay (Oct 27, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



lumen aeternum said:


> Its unfortunate that two different technologies seem to share the same LEP acronym.
> Can you give me an example of a plasma flashlight?




I don't believe there is one. If there were, it would be at least a few thousand dollars.
This technology has been around for at least 10-15 years but hasn't been implemented much at all.
We looked into it back 10 or 15 years ago and concluded it wasn't very practical for any of our applications at that time.


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## Magio (Oct 27, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> I'm not gonna hold my breath, without VERY WELL engineered active cooling . . .
> Must be up in the realm of 100 watts power draw, maybe higher.



Well I've proved my point. 

I did a ceiling bounce test in my bathroom of several of my lights. Now I realize that ceiling bounce test are not the most accurate way to measure lumens at all, but I do think its a way to get a quick idea of how the lights stack up. I covered each light with a piece of white copy paper to prevent hotspots from skewing the results. And these are the numbers.

Thrunite TN32 - 27 lux
Thrunite TC20 - 38 lux
Tractor Supply Hid - 42 lux
Dual 100watt halogen spotlight - 66 lux
Thrunite TN40 - 68 lux
Firefoxes FF4S 65 watt HID - 82 lux
BLF GT94 Turbo - 364 lux
BLF GT94 High @ 10min 158 lux
BLF GT94 High @ 15min 142 lux

And the temperature. I ran the light on high to show that turbo is not even necessary for it to beat HID and its quite able to maintain its brightness without overheating. And this is a passively cooled light.

@ ~5min. 2mins on turbo before switching to high


A0076_FR by Imagio X1, on Flickr

@ ~10min 


A0077_FR by Imagio X1, on Flickr

@ ~15 min


A0078_FR by Imagio X1, on Flickr

So after 15 mins on high in a room with the ambient temp at 75F the light was still ~173% brighter than the FF4 is at 65watts, and I was still able to reach down and pick the light up and carry it by the battery tube. Admittedly it was a starting to get a little uncomfortable after a few minutes of holding it but the light is meant to be carried by the carry handle which was still rather cool. Also you can see that the hottest part of the head is only 165F which is well within its temperature limits.


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## Magio (Oct 27, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



badtziscool said:


> Here we go again. lol!
> 
> I'm starting to think it should be standard practice to define what one means by "surpassed" when making a comparison between LED and HID, and that everyone commenting stick to within that definition.



Haha I like a good debate.

So when I say beat I'm meaning 3 things. A combination of intensity, lumens, and sustainability, and we can also throw in price. I don't think there is any hand held HID flashlight available that offers a better combination of intensity, and light output, that can maintain it for a significant amount of time, and especially not at this price point. I will certainly concede that the higher priced HID lights are almost certainly more reliable and durable, however that is not to say that this light is not reliable or fragile.


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## XeRay (Oct 28, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> Also you can see that the hottest part of the head is only 165F which is well within its temperature limits.
> Haha I like a good debate.



This temperature actually means very little, The "head temperature limits" are the melting point of aluminum , Its the temperature of the LED's themselves, the Junction temperature that matters a VERY LOT. You need a very large "Delta T" between the heat sink fins and the LED's themselves (As well as a very good mechanical (physical) connection for thermal transfer) in order to have very efficient thermal transfer to pull the heat out of the LED's . Once the heat sink warms up you no longer have that "Delts T". With the heat sink fins at 165 degrees you can be assure the LED's are likely above or at least close to 100C (212 F). That's well above whats good for LED's or any circuitry for that matter for long dependable life. This is why on computer CPU's the heat sink mechanism has been directly attached to the top of the CPU and then a fan as well.
There is no way to get the heatsink directly onto the back of the LED's, they are mounted on a PCB (plastic) etc.
How many watts are being drawn from the battery in this situation ? All those watts that end up as heat must go somewhere, much of it is being trapped inside.

As "someone" politically famous (unnamed here) a few months ago said, "it was just a debate (while laughing:fail" when confronted in a video recorded interview for extreme inconsistencies of opinion and position (implying that misleading comments are normal and to be expected in a debate). ie Political "Flip - Flops" positional lies are normal. 
Fortunately this debate isn't Political in the traditional sense, but is seems to have gone well beyond the scientific facts of high powered LED flashlight thermal management design. You simply can't ignore the Physics of thermal energy (heat) transfer. Ambient airflow (natural convection) and radiated IR just cant cut it, submerged in water would likely do the job or possibly cool or cold strong winds.


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## Magio (Oct 28, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

The MCPCB is not plastic. It's 88mm by 3mm copper and weighs about a 1/3 of a pound. The LEDs maximum junction temp is 150c or 302f. I doubt those LED are getting that hot.


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## XeRay (Oct 28, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

If it were "copper" the entire PCB would be a giant short. It is backed and bonded to a copper "plate" of your indicated 3mm, the plastic PCB is a thermal and electrical insulator, with the power pads to mount (solder) the LED's not connected thermally directly to the copper plate.
You better get it straight if you are gonna argue with me. I have been in LED applications development (Aviation) for 8+ years.
You are crazy if you think 150C is okay for any Diode. Maximum PCB temperature for any electronics application is about 120C, that's not considering the maximums for individual devices mounted thereon or their longevity.
Whats the Tg (glass transition temp.) of the PCB ? should always operate at least 25C below the Tg rating.


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## Magio (Oct 28, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> If it were "copper" the entire PCB would be a giant short. It is backed and bonded to a copper "plate" of your indicated 3mm, the plastic PCB is a thermal and electrical insulator, with the pads to mount (solder) the LED's nt connected thermally to the copper plate.
> You better get it straight if you are gonna argue with me. I have been in LED applications development (Aviation) for 8+ years.
> You are crazy if you think 150C is okay for any Diode. Maximum PCB temperature for any electronics application is about 120C, that's not considering the maximums for individual devices mounted thereon or their longevity.
> Whats the Tg (glass transition temp.) of the PCB ? should always operate at leas 25C below the Tg rating.



Yes this is appropriately called a copper dtp mcpcb. Trying to find something wrong with the light by calling it plastic is just silly. I think there is enough information here for others to make their own judgements.


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## XeRay (Oct 28, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> I think there is enough information here for others to make their own judgements.
> Trying to find something wrong with the light by calling it plastic is just silly.



On that statement I believe we can all agree that intelligent conclusions can be made, from these complete 25 informational posts.

Every PCB made in the world is made of some type of insulating fiber reinforced plastic, that's not a criticism, just a fact, HID is the same.


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## XeRay (Nov 2, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> On that statement I believe we can all agree that intelligent conclusions can be made, from these complete 25 informational posts.
> Every PCB made in the world is made of some type of insulating fiber reinforced plastic, that's not a criticism, just a fact, HID is the same.



I guess the debate has been "laid to rest" again for a time, until another "wack a mole" event.
Eventually it will happen but these current arguments are premature.

Who knows, perhaps my company will be the one to accomplish a comparable performing LED to a high quality "military grade" HID.
A unit with a few hours of "turbo" continuous run time without any performance or life degradation and ~10,000 Lumens, and not burn your hands or damage the LED's


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## Magio (Nov 2, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

The GT94 is already quite capable of running continously at a level that exceeds HID without burning your hands or damaging the LEDs. And this is not the only light thats capable of it. Vihn's moddified Mateminco MT90 is capable of continuous 5,500 lumens at 3.3million candle power. And the heat management in that light is even better than it is in this light. This guy https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...-COMING-SOON&p=5410198&viewfull=1#post5410198 measured only 127F after 15min and 112F with the fan. And yes you are right that there will continue to be improvements. The 2 lights that I have mentioned are big and weigh about 8lbs. I would like to see the size and weight come down to something a bit smaller and more manageable.


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## Rasher (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> The GT94 is already quite capable of running continously at a level that exceeds HID without burning your hands or damaging the LEDs. And this is not the only light thats capable of it....


As an owner of a '94, and most of the other "super" LED, they're not in the same league as the top-o-the heap HID, certainly not for throw, runtime, or temperature limits. One need only take out a Xemax, Lemax, maxa beam, etc. to clearly see it's comparing Yugo to Ferrari. They are not toys, and are priced accordingly.


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## idleprocess (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> Every PCB made in the world is made of some type of insulating fiber reinforced plastic, that's not a criticism, just a fact, HID is the same.



There are a wide variety of MCPCBs out there. Many are just a thin veneer of FR4-like material over an aluminum layer that use via-like constructs under the thermal slug of the LED (or other high-power component) to conduct heat to the metal core far more efficiently than vias through a conventional PCB to an outboard heatsink. Some are more exotic with towers or pillars that project through the FR4-like material for direct contact with the thermal slug and look to be made from copper rather than aluminum. A quick search turned up COFAN USA, who claims _significant_ jumps in thermal conductivity with a pillar design vs conventional MCPCB design. A product from Cutter designed for a handful of specific Cree LED's claims similar thermal conductivity.



XeRay said:


> Who knows, perhaps my company will be the one to accomplish a comparable performing LED to a high quality "military grade" HID.
> A unit with a few hours of "turbo" continuous run time without any performance or life degradation and ~10,000 Lumens, and not burn your hands or damage the LED's



With LEDs getting steadily cheaper and something akin to the replaceable-component concepts that Zhaga attempted to promulgate, perhaps the light source could be replaceable as needed - ala HID - to get around the problems of degradation when operating at extreme temperatures for long periods :shrug:.


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## desert.snake (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

I thought HID died as soon as the LEDs appeared, too much power eat and they are afraid of falls. 

Magio  Why shine such powerful lanterns at your feet? They are designed for use with binoculars, to search for something over long distances. For example, look for prisoners or animals to shoot at night:





In my opinion the GT94 is ineffective, Like most other luminaires with reflectors, because a lot of light goes into side illumination. TIR and fresnel lenses will provide excellent beam without additional loss. Better to have 10-15 emitters that will give the same beam as 3-4, but will be colder.

I always remember an old funny video where they made a spotlight from a steel bowl and a fresnel lens
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxTGS5i2AHY

Thanks for the thermal pictures of the flashlight, it's helpful. The lack of thermal protection for the batteries is sad. I mean an additional temperature sensor that would be located between the head of the flashlight and the batteries in order to monitor the extreme temperature and reduce the power when the batteries heat up. Once my battery wrapper from a well-known manufacturer of flashlights melted. they have not indicated anywhere that there is no thermal protection. By the way, in the video, there is a temperature sensor on the diode board, there is also a temperature sensor on Luminus CBT diodes from the luminus to monitor and protect the diodes, there is also a place for installing a thermal sensor on the diode boards from the MTN. Does the BLF GT have a similar sensor near the diodes?


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## XeRay (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> The GT94 is already quite capable of running continously at a level that exceeds HID without burning your hands or damaging the LEDs. And this is not the only light thats capable of it. Vihn's moddified Mateminco MT90 is capable of continuous 5,500 lumens at 3.3million candle power. And the heat management in that light is even better than it is in this light. This guy https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...-COMING-SOON&p=5410198&viewfull=1#post5410198 measured only 127F after 15min and 112F with the fan. And yes you are right that there will continue to be improvements. The 2 lights that I have mentioned are big and weigh about 8lbs. I would like to see the size and weight come down to something a bit smaller and more manageable.



Those temps tell you nothing of the heatsink to Junction transfer efficiency nor the Junction temperature or long term durability, Often of little concern to Chinese manufacturers.

8 lbs is a ridiculous amount of weight. 4 to 5 lbs, should really be considered a maximum including the battery.


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## XeRay (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



desert.snake said:


> I thought HID died as soon as the LEDs appeared, too much power eat and they are afraid of falls.



High quality HID's are not "afraid of falls", if the G's of impact are very high (hard surface like concrete), the plasma of the arc actually having mass can sometimes pull far enough away from the 2 electrodes at the moment of impact and the arc of light will extinguish.
If this happens its just a matter of restarting the light with no waiting needed, its called a hot restrike. Only cheap units or poorly designed ballasts have an issue with hot restrike.
As for power a 35 watt HID needs about 39 watts total power. A 50 watt HID needs about 55 watts, a 70 or 75 watt HID needs about 77 and 83 watts respectively.


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## XeRay (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



idleprocess said:


> With LEDs getting steadily cheaper and something akin to the replaceable-component concepts that Zhaga attempted to promulgate, perhaps the light source could be replaceable as needed - ala HID - to get around the problems of degradation when operating at extreme temperatures for long periods :shrug:.



With "Murphy's Law" being considered, reliability will be an issue with that approach and failure will occur at the most inopportune time.


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## desert.snake (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> High quality HID's are not "afraid of falls", if the G's of impact are very high (hard surface like concrete), the plasma of the arc actually having mass can sometimes pull far enough away from the 2 electrodes at the moment of impact and the arc of light will extinguish.
> If this happens its just a matter of restarting the light with no waiting needed, its called a hot restrike. Only cheap units or poorly designed ballasts have an issue with hot restrike.
> As for power a 35 watt HID needs about 39 watts total power. A 50 watt HID needs about 55 watts, a 70 or 75 watt HID needs about 77 and 83 watts respectively.



This is cool, of course, but HID expects death or half-life awaits, like silver fruit knives with the advent of stainless steel. Price question for the ordinary flashlight lover. Sure HID will exist if only for some very special purpose (if heat removal is impossible for some reason) or someone who has a lot of money, some government structure.


----------



## Chicken Drumstick (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> If it were "copper" the entire PCB would be a giant short. It is backed and bonded to a copper "plate" of your indicated 3mm, the plastic PCB is a thermal and electrical insulator, with the power pads to mount (solder) the LED's not connected thermally directly to the copper plate.
> You better get it straight if you are gonna argue with me. I have been in LED applications development (Aviation) for 8+ years.
> You are crazy if you think 150C is okay for any Diode. Maximum PCB temperature for any electronics application is about 120C, that's not considering the maximums for individual devices mounted thereon or their longevity.
> Whats the Tg (glass transition temp.) of the PCB ? should always operate at least 25C below the Tg rating.


A shame you are ruining a good thread with constant scorn and negative views. Maybe you'd be better served going off and building a light to better this and proving how it is done if it bothers you so much.


----------



## idleprocess (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> With "Murphy's Law" being considered, reliability will be an issue with that approach and failure will occur at the most inopportune time.



Don't know about your - nor comparably-priced - gear, but in the automotive world HID bulbs and ballasts have a tendency to do _just that_ on timescales somewhat in excess of the factory warranty. I imagine that replacing items on a schedule all but eliminates unpleasant surprises. Of course, one has to perform surgery then diagnostics to repair most tightly-integrated automotive LED headlamps - but to the automakers who make good margins on parts this is likely _a feature not a bug_.

I got a decade out of a first-generation i5 desktop (i5-750) built from parts _to a cost limit_ and only replaced it because it was beginning to show subtle signs of possible failure after the heatsink separated from the CPU a second time _(hooray for thermal throttling)_. If a socketed 95W TDP CPU that doesn't want to much exceed 72°C can be made to last a decade in a consumer application with middling airflow _spending its first ~5 years running 24/7_, I suspect that in markets with more margins than residential/consumer gear a fixture or searchlight's high-power LED can be made field-interchangeable ala something akin to a socket that interfaces power and thermal management.


----------



## XeRay (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Chicken Drumstick said:


> A shame you are ruining a good thread with constant scorn and negative views. Maybe you'd be better served going off and building a light to better this and proving how it is done if it bothers you so much.



My comments give out plenty of hints. 

If you can't handle reality then maybe you should stay out of any debates.

Any technology or product that can't stand up on its own merits deserves confrontation.


----------



## XeRay (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



idleprocess said:


> Don't know about your - nor comparably-priced - gear, but in the automotive world HID bulbs and ballasts have a tendency to do _just that_ on timescales somewhat in excess of the factory warranty. I imagine that replacing items on a schedule all but eliminates unpleasant surprises.



Our ballasts (any well made HID ballast) usually last many thousands of hours, you won't likely ever get there with a handheld.
As for the HID bulbs they usually last about 2000-3000 hours before total failure and almost without exception give plenty of warning (many hours).
They usually start to gradually turning pink or purple (the light beam) a few hours before absolute failure). The bulbs should really be changed out in 700 to 1000 hours for better output anyway.
The ultimate failure is due to the arc gap (gap between electrodes) getting too large due to erosion over time. The ballast has programmed voltage limits during steady state (warmed up).
Once a maximum voltage (typically around 100 VAC or so) is reached, the ballast will shut down automatically. This usually happens after maybe 10 to 30 seconds of run time.
Normal operating voltage is 85 VAC for a new bulb. In order to maintain a constant wattage to the bulb over its useful life, the ballast will reduce the amps as the volts AC needed rise.


----------



## richbuff (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

This thread has caused my popcorn consumption to sharply increase. Reading this thread is both so exciting and so informative, but I had to drastically cut back on my usual diet of grains and beans (plain oatmeal and plain tofu), so as to not gain weight from the recent massive popcorn intake that has resulted from keeping up with this thread. 

More throw or more power. More heat or less heat. More weight versus less weight. More runtime or less runtime. More durability or less durability. No final determination for me, except lots more popcorn calories.


----------



## XeRay (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



richbuff said:


> Will the new Supreme Court overturn HID v. LED?



Only if the LED favoring Dems. are able to "Pack the Court". This is after all a very "Hot Potato" political issue, its a form of systemic photonic racism.
HID is trying to hold LED down in a subservient role.


----------



## idleprocess (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> Only if the Dems. are able to "Pack the Court". This is after all a very "Hot Potato" political issue, its a form of systemic optical racism.
> HID is trying to hold LED down in a subservient role.



I chuckled. Because 2020.


----------



## XeRay (Nov 3, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



idleprocess said:


> I chuckled. Because 2020.
> _I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter_



WOW and I chuckled too, 3 words and a year.
Maybe your shortest post ever.


----------



## lumen aeternum (Nov 4, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> Who knows, perhaps my company will be the one to accomplish a comparable performing LED to a high quality "military grade" HID.
> A unit with a few hours of "turbo" continuous run time without any performance or life degradation and ~10,000 Lumens, and not burn your hands or damage the LED's



What about filling the lens area with coolant liquid & pumping it to a radiator? Liquid directly on the top of the LED. Better than air (which gets hot behind the lens).


----------



## lumen aeternum (Nov 4, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> With "Murphy's Law" being considered, reliability will be an issue with that approach and failure will occur at the most inopportune time.



A lens design with 2 LEDs, only one of which is powered at any given time. So just flip the switch to the backup.


----------



## lumen aeternum (Nov 4, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> ...
> As for the HID bulbs they usually last about 2000-3000 hours before total failure and almost without exception give plenty of warning (many hours).
> ...
> The ultimate failure is due to the arc gap (gap between electrodes) getting too large due to erosion over time. The ballast has programmed voltage limits during steady state (warmed up)....



So it should be possible to inspect them with an optical device that measures the gap, and a chart showing remaining life along with an output curve, so the user knows about how many hours are left until the brightness falls below his acceptable level?


----------



## lumen aeternum (Nov 4, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> Only if the LED favoring Dems. are able to "Pack the Court". This is after all a very "Hot Potato" political issue, its a form of systemic photonic racism.
> HID is trying to hold LED down in a subservient role.



ALL flashlights are inherently racist, because only the elite could afford artificial lighting, and it has kept the proletariat in the dark for centuries.


----------



## bigburly912 (Nov 4, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Chicken Drumstick said:


> A shame you are ruining a good thread with constant scorn and negative views. Maybe you'd be better served going off and building a light to better this and proving how it is done if it bothers you so much.



This comment made me chuckle. Since Xeray stayed humble in his response I’ll just welcome you to google (or any of your preferred search engines) Xevision HID xenon technology. He is not giving negative views he is presenting facts.


----------



## idleprocess (Nov 4, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



lumen aeternum said:


> What about filling the lens area with coolant liquid & pumping it to a radiator? Liquid directly on the top of the LED. Better than air (which gets hot behind the lens).


_Forced_ liquid cooling in a portable device requires appreciable power, mass, and volume for questionable returns. Also, LEDs generate heat almost wholly on the thermal slug mounted to their backside, thus the added complexities of flooding the airspace between the reflector and lens buys you almost nothing.



lumen aeternum said:


> A lens design with 2 LEDs, only one of which is powered at any given time. So just flip the switch to the backup.


This is not workable for long-throw devices and impractical for more flood-oriented devices. A _New York reload_ is more practical if it you absolutely positively require a working device 100% of the time - especially with something as generally reliable as a LED system.



lumen aeternum said:


> So it should be possible to inspect them with an optical device that measures the gap, and a chart showing remaining life along with an output curve, so the user knows about how many hours are left until the brightness falls below his acceptable level?


A light meter and a chart should suffice for the truly discerning user; otherwise a _maintenance schedule_ ought suffice if failure components are reasonably user-serviceable.


----------



## desert.snake (Nov 4, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



idleprocess said:


> _Forced_ liquid cooling in a portable device requires appreciable power, mass, and volume for questionable returns. Also, LEDs generate heat almost wholly on the thermal slug mounted to their backside, thus the added complexities of flooding the airspace between the reflector and lens buys you almost nothing.



It seems that somewhere they discussed semi-liquid cooling due to heat pipe 









In principle, for a powerful LED, this may be enough if make a lot of pipes and a large radiator. I had a SF Dominator, but it very quickly reduced the brightness due to the operation of the protection against overheating of the diode. If it had heat pipes, it could run at a high level for much longer.


----------



## idleprocess (Nov 4, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



desert.snake said:


> It seems that somewhere they discussed semi-liquid cooling due to heat pipe
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In isolation, heat pipes are *passive* liquid cooling and do have potential to move heat away from the source faster than heatsinks alone. But effective implementation with heat pipes is apt to be a bit cumbersome for most portable designs since they benefit greatly from forced airflow over large radiating surfaces.


----------



## Magio (Nov 5, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Rasher said:


> As an owner of a '94, and most of the other "super" LED, they're not in the same league as the top-o-the heap HID, certainly not for throw, runtime, or temperature limits. One need only take out a Xemax, Lemax, maxa beam, etc. to clearly see it's comparing Yugo to Ferrari. They are not toys, and are priced accordingly.


I cant believe you actually own all the "super" LED flashlights out there and then claim something as false as "they're not in the same league as the top-o-the heap HID, certainly not for throw..." Thats just plain wrong with no if, ands, or buts about it. There are literally hundreds of threads on this forum and others with overrwhelming proof that LED is just as capable of producing spectacular throw as HID is. Also its interesting that you use the Yugo to Ferrari analogy. A better analogy would be how the Honda Civic Type R beats many Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsches around the Nurburgring while costing only a fraction of what they do.



XeRay said:


> Those temps tell you nothing of the heatsink to Junction transfer efficiency nor the Junction temperature or long term durability, Often of little concern to Chinese manufacturers.
> 
> 8 lbs is a ridiculous amount of weight. 4 to 5 lbs, should really be considered a maximum including the battery.



This post indicates how little research you have actually done into the GT94. Although the GT94 was manufactured by Lumintop, it was not designed by them. It designed by very knowledgeable forum members right here in the US.

Also its funny you say 8lbs is ridiculous when one of the very lights you build or had a hand in building, the LX70 Superpower, weighs more than that. You claim you are not biased but its really obvious to see.


----------



## XeRay (Nov 6, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> Also its funny you say 8 lbs is ridiculous when one of the very lights you build or had a hand in building, the LX70 Superpower, weighs more than that. You claim you are not biased but its really obvious to see.



If you knew much about the truth from reading many of the threads here, I never encouraged people to purchase that item. Many well informed here in this thread, can confirm that fact. It's heavy, bulky, impractical and not well balanced. I have discouraged people from buying the super power version. The Normal LX70 is under 5 lbs. I have only EVER sold I believe 2 or possibly 3 with a Super-Power head, all in the last 2 years, only because they insisted to buy it. We had nothing to do with it's large head development and discouraged it from the very beginning as impractical for serious field use. Flashaholics are often an exception in these considerations, "WOW factors" change the priorities and evaluations of "useful", significantly practical is often not one of them as is evidenced by your proposals too..


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 6, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> If you knew much about the truth from reading many of the threads here, I never encouraged people to purchase that item, many well informed, here in this thread can confirm that fact. It's heavy impractical and not well balanced. I have discouraged people from buying the super power version. The Normal LX70 is under 5 lbs. I have only EVER sold I believe 2 or possibly 3 with a SuperPower head. All in the last 2 years, only because they insisted to buy it. We had nothing to do with it's large head development and discouraged it from the very beginning as impractical for serious field use.



Not that Dan (XeRay) needs defending, but as a long standing member of this forum, and having read hundreds of his posts over decades, and having researched & purchased his products, although it may seem to you that he is being “challenging,” in reality he is extremely dedicated to people being well informed and factual. 

There are so many threads/posts where people make well intended assertions and don’t have as much education, experience, or well-rounded views as some of the experts on this forum. Without question, Dan is one of those experts in the areas being discussed here. LED heat issues are crucial, and valid measurements need to be done as close to the diode as possible, not from outside the light. 

I have not read any of Dan’s posts in this thread as saying anything other than what he knows as facts at the current level of technology. I recommend that you engage with him to learn what he knows, rather than dismiss his expertise as being jaded. Of course, it’s up to you!


----------



## Magio (Nov 6, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



LuxLuthor said:


> Not that Dan (XeRay) needs defending, but as a long standing member of this forum, and having read hundreds of his posts over decades, and having researched & purchased his products, although it may seem to you that he is being “challenging,” in reality he is extremely dedicated to people being well informed and factual.
> 
> There are so many threads/posts where people make well intended assertions and don’t have as much education, experience, or well-rounded views as some of the experts on this forum. Without question, Dan is one of those experts in the areas being discussed here. LED heat issues are crucial, and valid measurements need to be done as close to the diode as possible, not from outside the light.
> 
> I have not read any of Dan’s posts in this thread as saying anything other than what he knows as facts at the current level of technology. I recommend that you engage with him to learn what he knows, rather than dismiss his expertise as being jaded. Of course, it’s up to you!



There's definitely bias in most of his post. I would be willing to believe what he says if he provides at least even a small amount of proof that this light and other lights mentioned do not meet the performance levels that the manufacturer claims and many people have tested them at. Generalized statements about the technology not being there are not sufficient. Show proof that the GT94 cannot maintain a brightness level equal to that of HID for an extended period of time without over heating and damaging the components, and exactly what the temperature is. Also show proof that the MF05 modified by Vihn for continuous turbo cannot throw as far as the top performing HID lights while having nearly the same amount of lumens.


----------



## XeRay (Nov 6, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> There's definitely bias in most of his post. I would be willing to believe what he says if he provides at least even a small amount of proof that this light and other lights mentioned do not meet the performance levels that the manufacturer claims and many people have tested them at. Generalized statements about the technology not being there are not sufficient. Show proof that the GT94 cannot maintain a brightness level equal to that of HID for an extended period of time without over heating and damaging the components, and exactly what the temperature is. Also show proof that the MF05 modified by Vihn for continuous turbo cannot throw as far as the top performing HID lights while having nearly the same amount of lumens.



Any human claiming they are free of any bias is an absolute liar or a self deceived fool, that includes you, since its fair to assume you are human.
I'd say the burden of proof is on you not others, you are the one making the claims in the HID forum that this product has surpassed HID in YOUR OPINION.
If you made those claims in the LED forum side only, I would likely just not even comment, over there you are to a great extent, "just singing to the choir".
I haven't seen you retract your claim regarding 8 lb lights and promotion of the Super-Power.


----------



## Magio (Nov 6, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> Any human claiming they are free of any bias is an absolute liar or a self deceived fool, that includes you, since its fair to assume you are human.


Ive never claimed not to be biased, but I will say I don't have a financial investment in any technology or company, or any association with anyone in the industry that would pull me in any particular direction. I love HID and Ive been looking long and hard at getting one of Xevision's or Lemax's products, in particular the Superpower, but I dont have the money at the moment. Yall build a great product and if and when I get the money I'll probably be in touch with you to order something. I've also had the Maxabeam and played around with the Nighthunter one. I have a 1000watt HID project I was working on but never finished. And I still currently own 2 HID lights and countless HID bulbs and ballast including the DL50-Fat boy bulb that I need to do something with. Whatever bias I may have has nothing to do with what I posted here though. When I walk outside at night and click the GT94 into high or turbo, I sure can see a lot more with it than I can with my FF4. Thats not bias.



XeRay said:


> I'd say the burden of proof is on you not others, you are the one making the claims in the HID forum that this product has surpassed HID in YOUR OPINION.


I don't know what you have been reading but I have posted as much proof in this thread as I can to support my opinion, short of destroying my light and attaching a thermocouple onto the PCB to measure junction temperature. I'm not going to do that just to win a debate on the internet. The beamshots, the ceiling bounce test, the thermal images showing the heatsink temp, the specs of the copper MCPCB are all facts that support my opinion. And not only have I provided what I could, there are many other people on this forum and on other forums who have come to the same conclusion based on their own individual testing that they have also posted. When all that information is referenced here though it is flatly denied and not a single bit of proof given except a general "technology is not there yet" which is a good as useless. Back up your claims that this light can't perform at the level advertised with proof or you might as well not say anything at all. The other guy who posted in this thread, @Rasher, stated LED can't throw as far as HID. I mean where yall getting this stuff from? Back that up with some hard proof.




XeRay said:


> I haven't seen you retract your claim regarding 8 lb lights and promotion of the Super-Power.


Explain this thread. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...ision-ULTRA-80-85W-Super-head-mod-SIGN-UP-NOW .


----------



## richbuff (Nov 6, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

Because of this thread, I have had to cut out the plain oatmeal and tofu that I have been living on. I am living on plain popcorn only until this thread comes to resolution.


----------



## Rasher (Nov 7, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> This post indicates how little research you have actually done into the GT94. Although the GT94 was manufactured by Lumintop, it was not designed by them. It designed by very knowledgeable forum members right here in the US.


 Ah yes, the same cadre of numnuts that created the disaster known as anduril... Carry on.


----------



## bigburly912 (Nov 7, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Rasher said:


> Ah yes, the same cadre of numnuts that created the disaster known as anduril... Carry on.



Oh man. That’s gonna start a war.


----------



## idleprocess (Nov 7, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



bigburly912 said:


> Oh man. That’s gonna start a war.



May well be on the scale of _*vi* vs *emacs*_ in terms of specific nerdfights.


----------



## lumen aeternum (Nov 7, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



idleprocess said:


> May well be on the scale of _*vi* vs *emacs*_ in terms of specific nerdfights.



PINE is where its at, you Luddite !


----------



## XeRay (Nov 7, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> Quote Originally Posted by XeRay View PostI haven't seen you retract your claim regarding 8 lb lights and promotion of the Super-Power.
> 
> Explain this thread.
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...ision-ULTRA-80-85W-Super-head-mod-SIGN-UP-NOW .


Pretty easy to explain, We were selling ballast upgrades to primarily people that had mostly purchased from Lemax not XeVision. Only one was a SuperPower from us, and it was special ordered. As I stated before we have always discouraged SuperPower purchases from a practical position, however if a customer insists, we don't refuse. We have only EVER sold, I believe 2 SuperPower heads, and possibly 3 but pretty sure ONLY 2. One in that ULTRA 85 upgrade limited editions and one to a guy in Australia, he only bought the head from us. Look at this thread below from almost 4 years ago.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...er-HID-Light&p=5046187&viewfull=1#post5046187


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 8, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

Magio, how does the GT94 compare to Vin's Mateminco MT90vn+ which I have?

Also, having bought the last Lemax 85W from XeVision, I can verify that Dan discouraged me getting the Superpower head because of the weight imbalance. I made a good choice.


----------



## Magio (Nov 8, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> Pretty easy to explain, We were selling ballast upgrades to primarily people that had mostly purchased from Lemax not XeVision. Only one was a SuperPower from us, and it was special ordered. As I stated before we have always discouraged SuperPower purchases from a practical position, however if a customer insists, we don't refuse. We have only EVER sold, I believe 2 SuperPower heads, and possibly 3 but pretty sure ONLY 2. One in that ULTRA 85 upgrade limited editions and one to a guy in Australia, he only bought the head from us. Look at this thread below from almost 4 years ago.
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...er-HID-Light&p=5046187&viewfull=1#post5046187



If you go back and read my original post I only sayed that you built or had a hand in building the Superpower. I don't see how anything you stated so far contradicts that even if you only sold 2 or 3. No where did I ever say you were promoting it. I will admit though that I did not realize that you had actively discouraged people from buying it. So my claim of bias on that account is wrong and for that I apologize.

Still waiting for proof that the GT94 does not have the performance the manufacturer states it has though.


----------



## Magio (Nov 8, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



LuxLuthor said:


> Magio, how does the GT94 compare to Vin's Mateminco MT90vn+ which I have?
> 
> Also, having bought the last Lemax 85W from XeVision, I can verify that Dan discouraged me getting the Superpower head because of the weight imbalance. I made a good choice.



I don't have the MT90vn. From a specs point of view though the MT90 is a dedicated thrower. I think Vihn estimated about 5500lm and he measured it at 3.3million lux. The GT94 is not such a dedicated thrower. The hot-spot for the GT94 is a lot larger than that of the the MT90. It was measured at almost exactly 20k lumens and between 1.4 and 1.6million lux. Also the MT90 is a lot bigger than the GT94. The GT94 is about 5.7lbs without batteries. The MT90 is about 7.5lbs without batteries. The stock MT90 cannot run on turbo continuously without damage to the driver. Vihn's modified version can. The GT94 can run on turbo without stepping down from the factory. It's needs no modifications.


----------



## richbuff (Nov 8, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

I have both the MF05 and the GT94. The MF05 is identical to the MT90, except for the different branding, Astrolux sted Mateminco. The GT94, at long range, has a moderately larger hot spot and a little bit less throw than the MF05. With one, you get the absolute longest LED thrower, and with the other you get a little bit less throw but a larger hotspot and more lumens. Both lights have absolutely astonishing performance. I have a Vinh modified MT MT90 de lens spec B on the way to me.


----------



## XeRay (Nov 8, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> Still waiting for proof that the GT94 does not have the performance the manufacturer states it has though.



I am still waiting for proof of its long term durability and run times at comparable to SuperPower HID stats. Since it weighs as much as a SuperPower, that's what it should be compared to.
Run times, how hot it gets in the hand, how hot the batteries get, how hot the LED(s) get at the junction, etc.


----------



## Magio (Nov 8, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> I am still waiting for proof of its long term durability and run times at comparable to SuperPower HID stats. Since it weighs as much as a SuperPower, that's what it should be compared to.
> Run times, how hot it gets in the hand, how hot the batteries get, how hot the LED(s) get at the junction, etc.


I've shown what it can do at a level that far exceeds the Superpower, except junction temp and I will not be measuring that, and you said its not possible. Once you turn it down to the level of the Superpower it will be even more sustainable. So I'm still waiting for you to show proof that it's not possible...

BTW I posted this in post #4.


> Durability wise maybe those very expensive HID lights still have an advantage,I dont know, but performance wise there is no comparison.


Also if you go back and read post #20 I stated this


> I will certainly concede that the higher priced HID lights are almost certainly more reliable and durable, however that is not to say that this light is not reliable or fragile.


----------



## XeRay (Nov 8, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> I've shown what it can do at a level that far exceeds the Superpower



When and how have you ever shown or compared it to the performance of the SuperPower, let alone "far exceeds" it?


----------



## Magio (Nov 8, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> When and how have you ever shown or compared it to the performance of the SuperPower, let alone "far exceeds" it?



I'm about done with this whole conversation because you obviously aren't paying attention to what you are reading. These are two different kinds of lights so they can't be directly compared but when it comes to the overall lumens, I and many other people have shown that yes the GT94 far exceeds the Superpower. A more apt comparison would be the Superpower Vs the MT90vn.

And I'm still waiting for you to prove anything you've stated in this thread. I notice you keep ignoring that part of my post.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> I don't have the MT90vn. From a specs point of view though the MT90 is a dedicated thrower. I think Vihn estimated about 5500lm and he measured it at 3.3million lux. The GT94 is not such a dedicated thrower. The hot-spot for the GT94 is a lot larger than that of the the MT90. It was measured at almost exactly 20k lumens and between 1.4 and 1.6million lux. Also the MT90 is a lot bigger than the GT94. The GT94 is about 5.7lbs without batteries. The MT90 is about 7.5lbs without batteries. The stock MT90 cannot run on turbo continuously without damage to the driver. Vihn's modified version can. The GT94 can run on turbo without stepping down from the factory. It's needs no modifications.



Thanks for that feedback! I appreciate it. I suspected what you said would be the case from your excellent beamshots. We can enjoy all the various lights we have--no matter what questions may arise about details. That's the most important thing! I think you are right that you have exhausted what you are trying to say in this thread. Peace Out!


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## DayofReckoning (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> I'm about done with this whole conversation because you obviously aren't paying attention to what you are reading. These are two different kinds of lights so they can't be directly compared but when it comes to the overall lumens, I and many other people have shown that yes the GT94 far exceeds the Superpower. A more apt comparison would be the Superpower Vs the MT90vn.
> 
> *And I'm still waiting for you to prove anything you've stated in this thread. I notice you keep ignoring that part of my post.*



This right here is why I exited from the previous thread on this topic, as I could clearly see that my dismantling of every single strawman argument and every single erroneous claim that they presented, which you have also done here, simply had no effect whatsoever. I could also see that hard data and proof of my claims was only being met with generic, non specific responses like " LED cannot match *HIGH END* HID" and complete disregard for the data that contradicts their claims.

I suspect this may have to do with people's personal Financial Investment/Stake in HID searchlights, and I would tend to believe this maybe a cause of conjunctive dissonance.


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## idleprocess (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> I've shown what it can do at a level that far exceeds the Superpower, except junction temp and I will not be measuring that, and you said its not possible. Once you turn it down to


Junction temperature can be approximated with a measurement of the heatsink as close to the die as practical then account for the cumulative thermal resistance between the measurement point and the junction _(i.e. heatsink:air, MCPCB:heatsink, LED:MCPCB)_.


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## XeRay (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



idleprocess said:


> Junction temperature can be approximated with a measurement of the heatsink as close to the die as practical then account for the cumulative thermal resistance between the measurement point and the junction _(i.e. heatsink:air, MCPCB:heatsink, LED:MCPCB)_.



I am sure the designer and possibly the manufacturer have some very good knowledge of what the junction temps are. There are usually Thermistors even located on the PCB, to measure the temperatures VERY near the junction.
Yes the junction temps can be closely measured with IR technology.

When Magio in the past mentioned Heat sink surface temps of around 100C (not F) in Turbo that's a sure giveaway.
We all know that Lumens alone are only part of the spotlight performance equation, Candela (Candlepower) and ultimately the Lux distance values between say 1 Lux and 1/2 Lux distances would be needed for a true assessment.



DayofReckoning said:


> I suspect this may have to do with people's personal Financial Investment/Stake in HID searchlights, and I would tend to believe this maybe a cause of conjunctive dissonance.



I believe its "Cognitive Dissonance" not Conjuctive as you stated. When you point one finger at others, your are often pointing 3 other fingers at yourself. Those with strong electronics, heat management and optics knowledge will clearly see the gaping holes in both sets of your arguments, Both you and Magio.



Magio said:


> I don't have the MT90vn. From a specs point of view though the MT90 is a dedicated thrower. I think Vihn estimated about 5500lm and he measured it at 3.3million lux. The GT94 is not such a dedicated thrower. The hot-spot for the GT94 is a lot larger than that of the the MT90. It was measured at almost exactly 20k lumens and between 1.4 and 1.6million lux. Also the MT90 is a lot bigger than the GT94. The GT94 is about 5.7lbs without batteries. The MT90 is about 7.5lbs without batteries. The stock MT90 cannot run on turbo continuously without damage to the driver. Vihn's modified version can. The GT94 can run on turbo without stepping down from the factory. It's needs no modifications.



Your LUX numbers here are impossible, maybe Candela (or CP), but absolutely not LUX.


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## desert.snake (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



idleprocess said:


> Junction temperature can be approximated with a measurement of the heatsink as close to the die as practical then account for the cumulative thermal resistance between the measurement point and the junction _(i.e. heatsink:air, MCPCB:heatsink, LED:MCPCB)_.



It's not so impossible, except for making holes and installing thermocouples, but you can get even closer like this - turn it on to the maximum, wait until it heats up, turn it off immediately and direct it through the glass to the diode and the board around the pyrometer. So we will see the temperature of the crystal itself and the board around it. Turning off the flashlight is necessary only in order not to mislead the pyrometer. Reflector and glass can be removed for greater accuracy. A high-quality pyrometer Testo / Fluke costs about $ 40-100, which is not a problem these days.







Can also take a pyrometer from the nearest hospital for one evening or measure the temperature of the lantern right in their yard so that they don't think that we want to steal it.


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## Magio (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



desert.snake said:


> It's not so impossible, except for making holes and installing thermocouples, but you can get even closer like this - turn it on to the maximum, wait until it heats up, turn it off immediately and direct it through the glass to the diode and the board around the pyrometer. So we will see the temperature of the crystal itself and the board around it. Turning off the flashlight is necessary only in order not to mislead the pyrometer. Reflector and glass can be removed for greater accuracy. A high-quality pyrometer Testo / Fluke costs about $ 40-100, which is not a problem these days.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I haven't tried it but a thermal camera or infrared thermometer cant see through glass can it? The head is bigger than any tool I have to remove the front bezel to be able to remove the glass.


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## desert.snake (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> I haven't tried it but a thermal camera or infrared thermometer cant see through glass can it? The head is bigger than any tool I have to remove the front bezel to be able to remove the glass.



The pyrometer understands radiant radiation, transparent glass is not an obstacle. You need a pyrometer, not a thermometer, he sees through the glass. I measured the temperature around the diode of my flashlight with TIR. It must to see at least from -30 to 400 degrees Celsius. More powerful pyrometers that see 1700 degrees Celsius and above are not needed here and they are expensive.


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## XeRay (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



desert.snake said:


> The pyrometer understands radiant radiation, transparent glass is not an obstacle. You need a pyrometer, not a thermometer, he sees through the glass. I measured the temperature around the diode of my flashlight with TIR. It must to see at least from -30 to 400 degrees Celsius. More powerful pyrometers that see 1700 degrees Celsius and above are not needed here and they are expensive.



There are also IR sensors ( FLIR ONE ) available with an app to use with an I-phone or Android smart phone.


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## idleprocess (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> I am sure the designer and possibly the manufacturer have some very good knowledge of what the junction temps are. There are usually Thermistors even located on the PCB, to measure the temperatures VERY near the junction.
> Yes the junction temps can be closely measured with IR technology.



Accessing the onboard thermal management may be less practical than using an instrument. I was originally thinking of some sort of contact device on the heatsink, however some sort of remote detection - ala thermal imager or non-contact thermometer - would also suffice for estimating purposes.


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## XeRay (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> I've shown what it can do at a level that far exceeds the Superpower, except junction temp and I will not be measuring that, and you said its not possible.



I never said measuring Junction temperature or at lease something very very close to that was impossible. I said your temperature measurements do not reflect in any way what the junction temps are, except that they will be very high.
We have quite a bit of experience at XeVision measuring junction temps, (very very close to actual and which will be slightly higher) from Thermistors mounted adjacent to the LED's and using FLIR.


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## Magio (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> I never said measuring Junction temperature or at lease something very very close to that was impossible. I said your temperature measurements do not reflect in any way what the junction temps are, except that they will be very high.
> We have quite a bit of experience at XeVision measuring junction temps, (very very close to actual and which will be slightly higher) from Thermistors mounted adjacent to the LED's and using FLIR.



No I'm saying that you said its not possible for the GT94 to exceed the Superpower. Not that its not possible to measure junction temp.


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## Magio (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> Your LUX numbers here are impossible, maybe Candela (or CP), but absolutely not LUX.



And your proof?



XeRay said:


> There are also IR sensors ( FLIR ONE ) available with an app to use with an I-phone or Android smart phone.


The FLIR ONE cannot detect the temperature of objects behind glass. https://developer.flir.com/forums/topic/can-flir-one-measure-temperature-of-things-behind-glass/



desert.snake said:


> The pyrometer understands radiant radiation, transparent glass is not an obstacle. You need a pyrometer, not a thermometer, he sees through the glass. I measured the temperature around the diode of my flashlight with TIR. It must to see at least from -30 to 400 degrees Celsius. More powerful pyrometers that see 1700 degrees Celsius and above are not needed here and they are expensive.



The Testo 830-T2 thats in your photo is an infrared thermometer. I don't see how you are using this to measure the temperature of the LEDs when they are behind the glass. Im not sure what you mean by a pyrometer.


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## XeRay (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> And your proof?



Your own statements prove it below. you can't go from these numbers to millions in just the distance difference of a ceiling and a piece of (filtering) paper.



Magio said:


> I did a ceiling bounce test in my bathroom of several of my lights. Now I realize that ceiling bounce test are not the most accurate way to measure lumens at all, but I do think its a way to get a quick idea of how the lights stack up. I covered each light with a piece of white copy paper to prevent hotspots from skewing the results. And these are the numbers.
> 
> Thrunite TN32 - 27 lux
> Thrunite TC20 - 38 lux
> ...





Magio said:


> The FLIR ONE cannot detect the temperature of objects behind glass. https://developer.flir.com/forums/topic/can-flir-one-measure-temperature-of-things-behind-glass/



I never said it would, you can possibly remove the front glass.


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## Magio (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> Your own statements prove it below. you can't go from these numbers to millions in just the distance difference of a ceiling.


I thought you knew what a ceiling bounce test was. These numbers I posted shows comparable reflected light off the ceiling and walls to get an estimate of the lights total output in lumens similar to an integrating sphere. This has absolutely nothing to do with throw.And yes I know ceiling bounce test are quite inaccurate.


XeRay said:


> I never said it would, you can possibly remove the front glass.



And I've said before I will not be disassembling my light just to win an argument on the internet. I dont even have the tools to get it apart. If you know so much, and what I'm saying is so obviously wrong you should be able to easily prove me wrong. As it stands we a three pages deep you have not provided one iota of proof to back up a single claim of yours.


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## XeRay (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> If you know so much, and what I'm saying is so obviously wrong you should be able to easily prove me wrong. As it stands we a three pages deep you have not provided one iota of proof to back up a single claim of yours.



Ditto dude again Ditto.

I believe I have quite clearly, that's for all the viewers here to decide for themselves, isn't it.

Lux values are not Lumens values (very little direct correlation), Lux values can somewhat predict throw as can Candela or CP.


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## Magio (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



XeRay said:


> Your LUX numbers here are impossible, maybe Candela (or CP), but absolutely not LUX.






XeRay said:


> Ditto dude again Ditto.
> 
> I believe I have quite clearly, that's for all the viewers here to decide for themselves, isn't it.
> 
> Lux values are not Lumens (very little correlation) values, Lux values can somewhat predict throw as can Candela or CP.




Look if you are going to come in this thread and claim I'm wrong you better have some numbers to back it up. I have tested it as have many other people, and the beamshots also prove my point so you better have some proof we are all wrong. You an expert at it. You been at it 8 years you said.

So tell us since you know so much
1. If the lumens that have been measured by many people is wrong, you tell us what the real numbers are.
2. If the the LUX that has been measured by many people is wrong, you tell us what the real Lux is.
3. If you are going to claim the LEDs are getting way too hot, tell us what the actual temp is and how much over 150C it is.
4. If you are going to claim the light is not going to last long because it is over heating, tell me how many hours its going to last. 10 hours?100?1000?10,000?

If you can't answer these questions whats your point posting here? Because you have not contributing anything useful to this thread.



DayofReckoning said:


> This right here is why I exited from the previous thread on this topic, as I could clearly see that my dismantling of every single strawman argument and every single erroneous claim that they presented, which you have also done here, simply had no effect whatsoever. I could also see that hard data and proof of my claims was only being met with generic, non specific responses like " LED cannot match *HIGH END* HID" and complete disregard for the data that contradicts their claims.
> 
> I suspect this may have to do with people's personal Financial Investment/Stake in HID searchlights, and I would tend to believe this maybe a cause of conjunctive dissonance.


Eaxctly. And then he's gonna come here and say he's proved his point. He's proved nothing. Just a bunch of vague stuff that helps nobody.


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## BVH (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

The sandbox is now closed.


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## tatasal (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



BVH said:


> The sandbox is now closed.



Do you have any evidence sir? :naughty:


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## BVH (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

Hope is Eternal?


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## nbp (Nov 9, 2020)

Is everything okay here? This is not my area of expertise, so I am not here to say what the right answer is, but let’s just remember to attack posts, not posters, etc, CPF rules apply, you guys know the drill. Thanks all.


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## XeRay (Nov 9, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> Exactly. And then he's gonna come here and say he's proved his point. He's proved nothing. Just a bunch of vague stuff that helps nobody.



Neither one of us has proven anything, I only challenged your definitive claims with undeniable facts, you haven't been able to adequately substantiated your claims or refute the majority if not all the comments I've made that challenge your claims. Until someone comes up with the proven data (facts) to eliminate my comments and concerns, this "debate" will not be finalized in a definitive way.


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## Magio (Nov 9, 2020)

nbp said:


> Is everything okay here? This is not my area of expertise, so I am not here to say what the right answer is, but let’s just remember to attack posts, not posters, etc, CPF rules apply, you guys know the drill. Thanks all.



I think everything is good. I've tried to remain firm but respectful. If there is anything I've posted thats concerning I'll be happy to correct it.


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## nbp (Nov 9, 2020)

No one has complained, just was scanning posts and offered a friendly reminder is all.  We all get “enthusiastic” about our particular areas of interests; I have done it plenty myself.


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## adamlau (Nov 10, 2020)

We need to gather when the COVID dust settles down for a good old-fashioned shootout event one of these days


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## tatasal (Nov 10, 2020)

adamlau said:


> We need to gather when the COVID dust settles down for a good old-fashioned shootout event one of these days



....and this will be a "settling" suggestion.

Waiting for that day!


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## BVH (Nov 10, 2020)

adamlau said:


> We need to gather when the COVID dust settles down for a good old-fashioned shootout event one of these days



Ah, the Mr. Ted Bear Shootout 3 and 4 days. I was somewhat new those days but loved the new HID lights like the Barnburner and the Helios. Those were some fun times.


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## XeRay (Nov 10, 2020)

BVH said:


> Ah, the Mr. Ted Bear Shootout 3 and 4 days. I was somewhat new those days but loved the new HID lights like the Barnburner and the Helios. Those were some fun times.



Yes those were the days, Mr. Ted Bear. I remember him well. Met him once in Las Vegas. He was very active here 15-20 years ago.


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## BVH (Nov 10, 2020)

June 15, 2017 was Jeff's last visit.


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## Magio (Nov 10, 2020)

You can go on back further to the Kenshiro superlight shootout too.


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## desert.snake (Nov 12, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*



Magio said:


> The Testo 830-T2 thats in your photo is an infrared thermometer. I don't see how you are using this to measure the temperature of the LEDs when they are behind the glass. Im not sure what you mean by a pyrometer.



Yes, you are right, I made a mistake, the glass will have to be removed somehow. I confused it with another type of pyrometer.


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## richbuff (Nov 13, 2020)

*Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.*

I presume that the original post, and most posts in this topic thread after that, pertain to GT94 with (lightish-mediumish) orange peel reflector, because most all of the people who posted about receiving this light about five weeks ago reported theirs having OP reflectors. 

This just in: The second sample of BLF GT94 that I ordered on October 31 just came in, it has a Smooth reflector. 

I have to wait six more hours for the dawn of the new flashlight day, to see if there is any visible difference of the amount of light on a medium size target 750 meters away. My guess now is that there will be no subjective difference in beam profile/beam performance to my eyes, one reason being that my first one with OP is more like a light-medium op reflector.

However, if most all of the posts in this topic thread pertain to GT94 with light-ish OP reflector, I want to make note here, that the Smooth reflector batch has materialized, which may possibly result in different throw spec measurements.


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## Magio (Nov 13, 2020)

richbuff said:


> I presume that the original post, and most posts in this topic thread after that, pertain to GT94 with (lightish-mediumish) orange peel reflector, because most all of the people who posted about receiving this light about five weeks ago reported theirs having OP reflectors.
> 
> This just in: The second sample of BLF GT94 that I ordered on October 31 just came in, it has a Smooth reflector.
> 
> ...



Nice! Do you have a lux meter where you can get some measurements? And yes mine does have an OP reflector.


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## richbuff (Nov 14, 2020)

Magio said:


> Nice! Do you have a lux meter where you can get some measurements? And yes mine does have an OP reflector.


 I don’t have a lux meter, I just don’t have enough experience to be skilled at using it properly. It was reported someplace else on the internet that installing the smooth reflector in the GT94 results in 13% more lux. 
There is a very small visual difference between the orange peel GT94 versus the smooth reflector GT94 in side by side comparison with target at 750 meters. The main cellular tower is just a little bit clearer, crisper and brighter with the smooth reflector, with both battery carriers reading 16.70 volts with digital multitester. For the longer ranges of this light, the smooth reflector is better. At shorter ranges, the orange peel reflector is ok. 
On short range wall, the orange peel reflector has smoother beam transitions. 
I recorded GoPro video of the long range comparison, and in playback of the video, no difference can be seen. The same with snapshots.


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## Bush Rat (Dec 9, 2020)

I agree 100% for us civilians and even basic search & rescue LED has indeed surpassed HID. Saw I video of the MF05 LED out throwing or close to it the LX70 with big head. :laughing: And those warm up times don't help...

The problem is HID is stuck at a ridiculous antiquated 75watts and now only available to the rich, we should be up to the 200watts HID now, that I could see spending 4000 on, until then HID imo is dead as road kill.  From all the posts here it seems that kind of power is impossible for a streamlined package so that to me makes LEDs high heat look good on paper. They update so fast thanks to the low cost if your 50,000hr LEDS reach 80% output in just 500, who cares?

LED is also so streamlined given how china makes such good stuff affordable, HID is a turn off completely with proprietary battery packs too. 

My hope is LED will throw as far as the Maxabeam but give 10x the lumens.


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## Magio (Dec 16, 2020)

Bush Rat said:


> They update so fast thanks to the low cost if your 50,000hr LEDS reach 80% output in just 500, who cares?


Thats a really good point. Running these LEDs at high power setting I'm sure does decrease their lifespan but by how much? If I recall correctly the SBT90.2 is rated at 60000hrs. If the heat decreases its lifespan by 90% that's still 6000 hours or 3X the lifespan of HID.

Also your point about cost is a good one. You can always build something for an insane amount of money and then claim it beats everything else, but who can afford it? I would say a light that cost $500 and has nearly the same performance as a $4000 light has a huge advantage. So even if the cheap light over heats and destroys itself after 6000 hours you can buy 8 of them for the cost of the one $4000 lol.


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## marinemaster (Jan 3, 2021)

Honda Civic and Nürburgring in the same sentence.. HA HA HA...ROFL


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## ateupwithgolf (Jan 4, 2021)

marinemaster said:


> Honda Civic and Nürburgring in the same sentence.. HA HA HA...ROFL




Type R owner here 
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...-r-smashes-nurburgring-front-drive-lap-record


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## marinemaster (Jan 8, 2021)

Thats “front wheel drive” not to be confused with a proper rear drive sports car.


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