# Polarion Price Increases?



## bhj1 (Dec 17, 2006)

I've been following the Helios and X1 threads with great anticipation and envy. Those lights appear to be fantastic tools. I noticed in a recent post by Ken J. Good that the prices on the Helios would increase to $1695. Expensive yes, but still manageable for a light of this caliber. My plan was to get one in January. I just visited the Polarion Store and noticed the prices on both lights had "jumped" considerabley. The Helios is now listed at $2095 and the X1 is at $1795. Did I miss something here? I checked previous threads/posts to see if I could find any info, but could not. The present prices mean the Helios has gone up about 33% in a few weeks and the X1 has increased by almost 30%. I'm not whining, but could someone explain these recent price jumps. This will certainly postpone my purchase of either light, if not stop it altogether. My initial response to these lights was that finally someone had produced a very powerful high quality HID that was within reach to the general public, but this was obviously premature thinking. My current collection of lights might indicate that cost is no concern, but it's taken a few years to aqcuire them. I might have to rely solely on my much less expensive PL24 from now on.

Bill


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## Lurveleven (Dec 17, 2006)

The dollar has dropped a lot in value lately, but not enough to justify the hole difference, but for some of it.

Sigbjoern


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## BVH (Dec 17, 2006)

The simple answer is to PM Ken with your question.

I don't remember if he offered CPF members a discount. You might ask him at the same time.


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## Ken J. Good (Dec 18, 2006)

Just say this as I have been up all night setting up the new desktop machine...My PC decided to die on me at the systemic level yesterday....It was getting worse and worse, finally it gave up the ghost. 

Polarion Prices....Yes....Up they went.  

Pretty simple really. It's a combination of things.

- Initial price of the lights was low to prime the pump so to speak.
- Weakening U.S. dollar vs Korean currency
- Actual price of production was higher than anticipated
- Need the additional margins to sustain the business model here in the U.S.

Ultimately it is the customer who chooses.


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## LITEDISORDER (Dec 18, 2006)

I guess I got my X-1 just in time. But someone had to be the first. THANKS KEN


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## hoppy1010 (Dec 18, 2006)

These lights are worth every penny I was lucky and got one for $1595 
but I would pay $2095 and not think twice after using one they are amazing.
Just think about the cost of surefire lights in this class, wait a second the Helios
blows the surefires out of the water at half the price. 

NUFF SAID

Jay


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## LITEDISORDER (Dec 18, 2006)

I just hope they come out with another one soon. I just got the X1 and i'm ready to go to the next level. Both worth every penny compared to all others I've seen.


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## windstrings (Dec 18, 2006)

Wholly Molely!!!! There must be tremendous demand in other areas besides the forum..... Thats a tremedous price increase!

I haven't seen so much Helios interest on the forum since this price increase!.... maybe they should raise the price another 500.00 and maybe it will get even more interest? Maybe start a buying frenzy.... everyone will want to buy before the price goes up!..... then they can resell and make a profit!


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## mtbkndad (Dec 19, 2006)

I was actually rather shocked when I saw the initial retail price. Everybody that followed the original Helios thread will likely remember that I thought would be in the $2000 to $3000 range based on the price of the original Beast and the Reva's.

For that matter a person could buy the X1 Expedition package -$2250.95- and the Helios Expedition package -$2550.95- for the price of a Surefire beast -$4807- and the Beast is only listed as water resistant. 
Of course the Beast does have those nice rubber baby bumpers so it can be thrown around and maybe some people like the big square ballast in back of the head  .


Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 19, 2006)

LOL! They are "Polarion Plants" I tell ya! LOL! I was shocked too when I saw the initial retail prices....about how high they were. Now I'm stunned into "XeRay Owner's Bliss" after seeing those new Polarion prices. Ummm I guess they really need the diving capability that the XeRay doesn't have to pay twice as much for less light. With Windy & me, this is like The Hatfields vs. The McCoys.


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## mtbkndad (Dec 19, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> LOL! They are "Polarion Plants" I tell ya! LOL! I was shocked too when I saw the initial retail prices....about how high they were. Now I'm stunned into "XeRay Owner's Bliss" after seeing those new Polarion prices. Ummm I guess they really need the diving capability that the XeRay doesn't have to pay twice as much for less light. With Windy & me, this is like The Hatfields vs. The McCoys.



Actually, rather then being a Polarion plant I simply recognize that the intended market for the Helios products is military and other government agencies, not CPF members that want the power of the sun for the price of a candy bar and the size of an Orb Raw. :hairpull:

Do not worry LuxLuthor I will never say you have a bad light.
Remember that I have used both Polarion and XeRays on numerous occasions.
Each is worth the price being asked. If the features of the Helios and X1 and their compact size are not needed, then a person can certainly save a LOT of money by buying a XeRay. 

I am fine with the light output and size of my Amondotech Illuminators in comparison with the XeRay for the price difference. You aren't going to call me and "Amondotech Plant" now are you    . Come to think of it I did help redesign the inside of the Illuminator, ran the thread, got Amondotech to be the dealer, still answer PM's and questions regarding the Illuminators.
All on a volunteer basis and then am accused of being a "Polarion Plant" because I like their lights. :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:   

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 19, 2006)

"Me thinks thou doth protest too much"

I did not identify any particular person(s) in my last post in reference to who is or is not a Polarion Plant, nor whether I was serious or joking !!!

Here's a clue:

:lolsign:

I would say however that the argument being made on CPF about prices being justified because they are oriented towards military and other government agencies is not 'kosher'.....since those parties do not care about the aesthetics and good looks of these lights which are highly promoted here (nor should they--since it is we the taxpayers footing the bills).

If all the valid points were directed purely at function for the government agencies and their needs, that would be one thing...but to say that the Border Patrol or U.S. Navy needs an attractive and sleek light is nonsensical. They don't...and they should not be paying anything extra for such features.

So now when I personally go back to looking at features...other than some price bump for medium depth waterproofing....I just don't see double the price in functionality or performance. There are even much cheaper diving lights that work better in that environment.

So if you are back to adding in the aesthetics of this light to justify its extra value...which I admit are striking...then you are back to promoting it among the CPF member community who are crazy enough to care about such aspects. There's nothing wrong with saying the looks and aesthetic design are a valuable part of an item's higher price...that is a significant part of the Apple design & marketing for example.

My main point about the Polarion Helios & now X-1 is that there are brighter performing lights for much cheaper, and with almost the same functionality. You can make an argument that it is only competing with the Beast or other SF markets...but there has not yet been a lot of effective competition to make high performance lights like this more reasonably priced. Competition generally drives prices lower...especially in the technology sector....so to have a marketing plan which starts a new light in an established market with a high price justified by already existing (SF) high prices is not taking into account market forces.

We shall see how Polarion fares in the ever increasing, competitive market of high end lights. Let's just understand what you are getting in terms of lumens and overall performance for various prices. Similar to your Illuminator example...there is also a certain reasonable value to Harbor Lights, and X990 lights.

My 'tongue-in-cheeky' "Polarion Plants" comments are related to not seeing very many objective or critical comments being made of the Polarion lineup...like how come no one else in this thread has any questions about Mac's inability to even get the X-1 properly turning on and off? I remember the stinging criticisms of the Razorbeams not working properly in reviews...and they were a lot cheaper. 

There was likewise many criticisms made about the XeRays...the circuit boards, battery draining, car charger issue, reflector issues, bottom plate & heat issues, etc. etc. So let's be fair about pro's and con's and not say that really high prices are irrelevant because a product is marketed to the military and govt. agencies. You could say the same thing about toilet seats....oh wait....scratch that one...LOL!


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## windstrings (Dec 19, 2006)

Usually when an item goes up in price, the price increase is "masked" by some improvement. "but not always".

You see it in cameras alot, DVD's, TV's, computers, etc etc.

Once the effectiveness of marketing runs out for a given product, the way the manufactures stimulates new interest is to add a new feature or improvement and raise the price "or sometimes even keep it the same".

However I have seen products just put on a new "skin" and throw on a different model number to make the customer "feel" like they are getting an upgrade when they are not. I noticed this with mens electric shavers over the years.

There is something missing here I don't understand and maybe I don't need to.

But if I were saving for the Helios and it went up in price without warning with no improvements over its predecessor.. I would be inflamed... that while other products of electronic nature drops in price, this one went up?

With my limited vision and limited understanding because I don't have all the facts, it would make me feel uncertain about whats up. 


If production cannot keep up with demand... you either increase production "more sales = more profit" or if the quantity of production is limited, you increase the price of the existing "higher price = more profit. The latter is more lucrative because you can do it without an increase in staffing.

However, the problem with increasing the price due to not enough production, you could be killing the goose that lays the golden egg and cause the attention of the consumer to turn elsewhere and so "loose" all the momentum you had for sales.
Its quite a delicate balance.

If I suddenly had to pay 500.00 more dollars for the same product, I would feel cheated if I hadn't gotten a major improvement.. like a bounce up to 50 watts, or even 75 or an increase in battery size for longer runtime? "or both".. but we got nothing? 
I would be trying to figure out a way to get one if they did both.

This will only make the competition look more appetizing. Marketing stategies that get your product to agencies that will spend the money works for a while, but the word of mouth of the competition soon catches up.

When there is a lack of interest, many strategies are to gender controversy.
Controversy actually can help a product become more noticed and increase sales. A trick Hollywood as picked up on. Free publicity!

Prices of HID's have been falling as the technology becomes cheaper, better and more plentiful.
Do we really think we are going to drive the prices back up to the days when you had to spend "two thousand dollars" for a nice HID light?

If so, you better look again.... its all around you.... pretty only last so far....

Like Ken said, ultimately the market makes the decision.... so if they can sell at that price, then more power to them... But I would expect its about the marketing... I see in pharmacy drug items as well as medical, its the salesman that gets his foot in the door first and wins thier attention first that gets the contract, not the one with the best product for the price....

Many governmental agencies don't do any homework to see what the competition holds because they have blank checks at thier disposal... so they don't care if they spend 500.00 for a hammer, or 1500.00 for a 60.00 chair.
Have you heard about this "tagging" of funds?.. almost like an unlimited account to buy what you want... "as we pay"

Its true, its ashamed our government is not more conciencious with our money, but If I could tap that market with my product I would too.

I still stand with my past convictions, the Helios is a beauty and many will pay based on beauty..... you throw in ruggedness too... the two are a rare combination.. people will pay more for that too.. but for the practicle power, runtime and features of manipulating the beam, the competition is better and better for a lower price.

I know this inflames some to hear this... its merely my viewpoint.. I make no profit, nor do I know anyone in the field so my viewpoint is objective and unbiased. This was my stance before I bought my light "which now makes me biased"

I did "allot" of digging and research before I made my purchase. If I had a nice expense account where money is no object, or if I was filthy rich, I too would go for the light that "looks" like no other... its indeed is a piece of craftmanship.

We are dealing with people.. people with different needs, motives, and purposes for owning a light.. to many folks, the Coscto is the only thing that makes sense, to others, they will spend 2000.00 for a tiny litte rock that was mined out of a cave somewhere in Brazil that does absolutely nothing but sit there and sparkle. 

*Finding what people will jump for and then determining how 'High" they will jump and providing that is the key to success. The Polarion folks obvious are betting the public will "now" jump "higher" for the same product...... So be it!

*I have yet to see the perfect light, and when I find it, I won't be able to afford it anyway.....


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## mtbkndad (Dec 19, 2006)

LuxLuthor,

I know you were being tongue and cheek with your response. That is why I replied rather then contact a moderator to look at a rather innapropriate post. When only two or three people post positive comments about the Polarion products after Ken's post and the you use the plural "Polarion Plants" then I have every reason and right to respond.

An unfortunate reality for any business selling to the military or the government agencies, unfortunate for the private sector. Is that suggested retail and indivdual unit price points need to be at a level where there are sufficient margins for quantity discounts, extra people in the distribution chain (manufacturers, sometimes multiple levels of distributors, dealers) getting their cut, etc. This definitely creates a pay to play circumstance for private individuals wanting one unit.

Regarding price, the point I am making is that the Helios and the X1 may be expensive compared to the under $1,000 crowd but they are very inexpensive compared to the Surefire Beast, Reva's, etc. The prices I listed came off of web sites selling each light or light package. 

Regarding objective critisism, I have been very objective regarding the lights I have actually used. I have given the XeRay's high praise in the areas I feel are there strengths.
I have not used Mac's light and am sure Ken will find out what is wrong.
I will wait to find out wether the switch problem was one light or a more serious issue. That is a large part of being objective, isn't it. Taking time to finds out all of the facts before a conclusion is made.
Objectivity has to go both ways. It does for me and does not seem to for you. You seem firmly commited to your belief that these lights are too expensive for what you get and you call people "polarion plants" if they disagree with you. It is simply not always appropriate to make "joking" statements that without "" or LOL's would be highly offensive.
For that matter, because it is a "joke" does not keep it from being offensive to the people it is directed at. 

I only ever asked Dan once about the reflector issue and took his word for the answer. The fact that a $800 light should not have ever had that much variation in performance without the manufacturer knowing about the variation in prototype units in advance is a serious oversight to me. 
This is particularly true since the "prototype" was sent to Mr Ted Bear as a light that is ready for review and testing. Costco/Harbor Freight HID's tend to have a variation with the reflectors. They are $129, you simply get what you pay for. Notice I said variation in performance not better or worse. That is because I have be very honest about my favorite XeRay configuration being the one with R1 and set to a Polarion P1 focus. A configuration that, according to Dan, is not available.

If we really want to be objective we need to also take into account R & D and manufacturing costs. Polarion is a manufacturer and XeVision is an assembler.
Once tooling is made(which itself is quite expensive), Plastic light bodies like the XeRay bodies can be made faster and cheaper then the 6061 tooling in the Polarion Helios and X1 that is treated to T6. Have you ever seen the little Polarion reflectors?
I do not know what they cost but it is likely a lot?

Dan gets his bodies from Taiwan. He has exclusive rights for here in the states and the AZ project person has rights for Asia (This is all public info that was dealt with in threads in the past). He then puts the ballasts, and bulbs in that he feels are best for the XeRay.

I do not seek to agrue with you. 
I agreed that if somebody does not need the small size and extra features of the Polarion lights that person can save a LOT of money by buying the XeRay.
Stricktly objectively speaking, I think the higher prices will get more people to look at XeRays. 
Subjectively speaking I would personally rather have an X1 at $1,795.00
then a XeRay at $800. This is really true after seeing Mac's pictures.
The X1 will fit in my pack even better then the Helios.

I do want you to recognize that not all jokes are appropriate and when the persons they are directed toward, like myself, take offense you will get responses to them.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## mtbkndad (Dec 19, 2006)

windstrings,

You have several good points.
I thought all along the $1,595 dollar price point was a rather unsustainable mistake.
for two reasons.
1. The pricing differnentials for different tiers of customer and sizes of orders that need to be incorportated into products being targeted for government or large corportate accounts.
2. It is always easier to lower a price then to raise one.

The smart thing would have been to come up with a price that Polarion & distributors knew in advance would be sustainable and then lower it in time if everything went better then expected or if no products sold.

Since I do not work for Polarion I had no say in these matters.
I also agree that moving price targets are challenging and frustrating to "save" for.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## XeRay (Dec 19, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> If we really want to be objective we need to also take into account R & D and manufacturing costs. Polarion is a manufacturer and XeVision is an assembler.
> 
> Dan gets his bodies from Taiwan. He has exclusive rights for here in the states and the AZ project person has rights for Asia (This is all public info that was dealt with in threads in the past). He then puts the ballasts, and bulbs in that he feels are best for the XeRay. mtbkndad :wave:


 
We are more than an assembler. While we do not manufacture the housing as you had indicated, we do design and manufacture HID ballasts and complete HID systems. While I believe Polarion only designs and manufactures the housing etc. but not the ballast, bulb etc. The Helios and probably the X1 as well, bulb is an off the shelf with only very minor modification Osram D1S bulb. 
Each of our companies do different parts of the package and buy other parts from other vendors. We are not as different as you indicated.


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## windstrings (Dec 19, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> windstrings,
> You have several good points.
> I also agree that moving price targets are challenging and frustrating to "save" for.
> 
> ...



Thanks for not getting too upset with me for posting my views... I'll try to mellow now.....

Hey... I just came up with a great idea!....

If I promise to buy my wife a 2000.00 diamond, maybe she will buy "me" a Helios?.......... just daydreaming!..... I think I'll use 4K towards my fishing boat!..... :laughing:


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## mtbkndad (Dec 19, 2006)

Fishiing boat?
That is where our priorities are different.
My MTB bike cost me around $3,800 buy the time I had it built up the way I wanted it.
For an extra $2,000 dollars I gould have dropped about a pound to a pound and a half in weight. 

Then there is my annual atendance to MBC that will take priority again if I have to make that choice.   

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## mtbkndad (Dec 19, 2006)

XeRay said:


> We are more than an assembler. While we do not manufacture the housing as you had indicated, we do design and manufacture HID ballasts and complete HID systems. While I believe Polarion only designs and manufactures the housing etc. but not the ballast, bulb etc. The Helios and probably the X1 as well, bulb is an off the shelf with only very minor modification Osram D1S bulb.
> Each of our companies do different parts of the package and buy other parts from other vendors. We are not as different as you indicated.



Thank you vey much for the clarifacations.
I was only going by what I had gleaned from different posts and I was only speaking in terms of your XeRay HID searchlights not the XeVision systems you create.
Even if you were only an assembler to your specs of the XeRay HID searchlights, you have put together a nice package.

When I had a chance to talk with a Polarion rep I was told Polarion designed and produces the ballast in the Helios? That was a while back and I do not know what is in the X1 but will assume Polarion designed and produces that too.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## windstrings (Dec 19, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> Fishiing boat?
> That is where our priorities are different.
> My MTB bike cost me around $3,800 buy the time I had it built up the way I wanted it.
> For an extra $2,000 dollars I gould have dropped about a pound to a pound and a half in weight.
> ...


Well without totally highjacking the thread..... I was gonna get a nice roadbike becaue I "love" bikes... but I find that I rarely go anywhere alone anymore, but we have a 33 mile lake setting here at my doorstep and lots of nice weather "300 days of sunshine a year" so I intend to spend many a relaxing evenings and even mornings out on the lake...and it will be a tremendous tool to get closer to the grandkids by taking them fishing and doing watersports...... of course I'll have my trusty light!

Its true about priorities.. its all about what our "value" system entails... and we will pay dearly to make it happen!


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## BVH (Dec 19, 2006)

Hey Windy, we do have a bit more in common than our love of lights. I had a SevenCycles Ti Axiom built for my unusual size back in 2003. When I "pull the plug" in 6/08, I plan on taking 4 or so months to ride across the U.S. I think you're too far south for the northernish route I want to take, But I'll wave anyway - or maybe by that time, I'll have a 500 Watt HID the size of a RAW and I can shine the beam at a predetermined time. Sorry, Bill, for further hijacking your thread but at least I said something about HID lights


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## bhj1 (Dec 19, 2006)

This post is getting a "little" more mileage than I anticipated. I have to admit that it was my frustration with the seemingly ridiculous Polarion price increases that prompted me to post at all. My reasoning behind publicly "calling out" Ken on this issue was this: The Polarion lights have been heavily promoted by Ken on this forum and this in turn has produced a lot of forum talk on the lights. That's exactly what this forum is about, talking flashlights! Isn't that why we're all here? 

The promotion thing is also a part of this forum board. But I believe that if a product is promoted here publicly, then it's entirley appropriate to publicly inquire about unsolicited, large price increases. 

Litedisorder politely stated that I should PM Ken. That was a good idea and I did send Ken a PM. Instead of replying via a PM Ken publicly replied on this thread. 

The Polarion lights are nice and I fully expected to purchase one. That is before the price increase. This is a free market and Ken has every right to charge whatever he wants for the Polarion lights. If I decide not to get a Polarion I can get "several" other HID lights. This is not a bad option either. The thought of a few other lights is actually exciting. Sure I'll miss not getting a Polarion, but I'll survive. My decision is going to be more about principle than any other factor. They'll turn up on the used market sometime. 

Ken's statement that it's up to the consumer to decide is completely correct, and I respect him for it. 

LuxLuther questioned why no one is asking about Mac's troubles with his new Polarion light. Maybe we're all just blinded by the Polarion light? The reality is that the Polarion lights will have their issues just as any other high-tech piece of equipment. 

Bill


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## mtbkndad (Dec 19, 2006)

I have one final thought that is demonstrated well in the difference between XeVision and Polarion as I see it.
XeVision is, I believe, a fairly small company as corporations go. I mean that in a good way. 
When you call to talk about a XeRay you get Dan who is responsible for these lights.
Ken is the US distributor for Polarion. When you call and talk to Ken you are talking to the distributor who also sells to dealers. 
What I am getting at is he may not have had anything to do with this price increase.
He, as the US distributor, may merely have been told the price is going up and then had to pass it on.

I am just an outsider looking in or these would have never been priced at $1,595 in the first place , but I do believe it is not fair to hold the distributor responsible for the price increase without knowing whether or not his prices went up.
I do know Ken is a person of very high integrity and I do believe he is NOT the kind of the kind of person that would raise prices just to raise prices.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## LITEDISORDER (Dec 19, 2006)

I think everyone here knows that I like the polarions.But I also have Boxer+ AE HID lights which I also like very much. The thing that makes me like the Helios+ X1 so much is the instant on, and I do mean instant. The others take up to 30 seconds to come up to full brightness. To me a flashlight that you have to wait on to light up is hard to get used to. Do any of the other lights have true instant on. If so I would be interested in them also. All the high end lights are pretty close to brightness- throw-beam quality-ect. But how many have instant on.


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 19, 2006)

mtbkndad, "Me thinks thou doth [continue] protest[ing] too much." _(my apologies to altering Shakespeare's original words)

_You are further assuming that my "Polarion Plants" joking comments refers only to this one thread, which would be an incorrect assumption. I do find it quite puzzling why you have decided to "go ballistic" about my comments which are not personally directed. 

I feel I am much more objective about pointing out problems, issues, high prices, etc. with a number of these lights, including raising a number of issues about the very two XeRay lights I have purchased. I find it extremely odd when challenging my objectivity, that a quick review of all your posts on the various Helios and X-1 threads, seem to be 100% Pro-Polarion....as is the case with some others posting about the lineup.

No matter what anyone raises as an issue, or challenges to an explanation (i.e. my previous responses about the military/govt. agencies sole market), there seems to be a "Pro-Polarion" answer about everything....with even a few more negative reminders again thrown in about XeRay shortcomings...LOL! 

Now maybe you honestly believe that every single aspect of every single Polarion that ever comes out is absolutely perfect, and of course the price should now be much higher in recognition...but after a while the lack of criticism that has been so ever present in previous shootouts and posts about other lights seems to be glaringly missing with this Polarion product line. Even the recent shootout raised more questions than answers about objectivity....leading to an ultra-complex re-shooting with even more Pro-Polarion comments...and dissing the prototype XeRay reflector.

And you now bring up some vague inference of reporting my posts to a moderator....oh that was rich. LOL! Go ahead....but I think my comments have been calm, objective, and backed up by sound reasoning. I have even said that knowing Ken is a Navy Seal elevates him to a near God status for me. 

Believe it or not, I'm trying to actually be objective....as there are many aesthetic features to appreciate about the Helios and X-1, which I have stated. There are also many drawbacks to them when compared to other lights.

:touche:


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## LITEDISORDER (Dec 19, 2006)

I shure do like the LED battery guage also. I' just sturring the pot, (SORRY)


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## XeRay (Dec 19, 2006)

LITEDISORDER said:


> I think everyone here knows that I like the polarions.But I also have Boxer+ AE HID lights which I also like very much. The thing that makes me like the Helios+ X1 so much is the instant on, and I do mean instant. The others take up to 30 seconds to come up to full brightness. To me a flashlight that you have to wait on to light up is hard to get used to. Do any of the other lights have true instant on. If so I would be interested in them also. All the high end lights are pretty close to brightness- throw-beam quality-etc. But how many have instant on.


 
NO "Metal Halide" type HID of any kind offers instant on to full brightness, Helios is this type of HID. All of this HID family (Not Xenon short arc) have a warm up period of varying degrees. Some take as much as 30 seconds as you have indicated. In the 35-40 watt market they typically take 10-20 seconds. The faster it is done the harder it is on both ballast and bulb. To get quicker warm up the HID must be overdriven to speed the process. The highest overdrive rates I have seen are about 100-110 bulb watts and quickly ramping down from there, that is 3X steady state wattage. Philips, Osram and GE who make the quality bulbs (Helios uses Osram) have done their testing. They do not recommend the initial overdrive wattage go beyond 100-110 bulb watts maximum and very quickly ramping down from there as the internal arc impedance (internal resistance) of the plasma changes toward a stabilized steady state. None of the ballasts offered by Philips or Osram overdrive beyond this point and Philips pushes it the farthest to about 105 bulb watts or so on one of their ballast products. If someone is claiming full output instantly and this visually appears close to being true, then there is a "price to be paid" for this in bulb life, ballast life and possibly even battery life when pulling 10+ amps for a few seconds from the Li Ion battery pack. Now, for emergency or some tactical situations, I can see a possible need for this and "dam the torpedoes" but for most applications this is not the case. This could also cause the bulb or ballast to fail when it is needed most the next (another) time, there is no free lunch. I believe, this is one reason the Surefire Hellfire has a "spring loaded" lens cap, this way I believe they turn it on for maybe 10 seconds before opening the cover (covert start up). For more typical applications, I think there is a good balance between faster start up and longevity of the electronics, bulb and battery package.


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## mtbkndad (Dec 19, 2006)

LuxLuther,

My only issue with your post is that I believe, whether joking or not, statements like "Polarion plants" are inflamatory. I did see the "" and LOL so I did not take it as breaking CPF rule number 4.

You will notice I do not say much about the Polarion P1. That is because I do not want to beat a dead horse and have already mentioned the, what I consider to be bad ergonomics. 

For me, small size and packability is everything in the high end light I get. The Helios was dropped from my most desirable spot when I saw the X1 is more uniform in shape and bright enough for my purposes. 
I agree that for the average person the price and features of the Helios and X1 are to high and overkill respectively.
For that matter, I think the average person would be better served by an Amondotech Illumintor or X990 then a XeRay and have a lot of money left over.

I do not see this as a dual or debate I truly do not believe there is a best light out there for everybody.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## windstrings (Dec 19, 2006)

LITEDISORDER said:


> I shure do like the LED battery guage also. I' just sturring the pot, (SORRY)



I like that too.. thats the only thing I would like to have... I do have lights, but not like the LED's.
Most of those guages are not real accurate anyway.. but they do look cool.
It kinda makes the light look like its alive..... or a little more high tech.... 

Too bad they have all that glory in only a 35/40 watt package.. I would really like to see it in a higher wattage and more batteries for the money.

I don't mind paying some pretty serious bucks if its cutting edge.. but I do need more than looks and diving abilties for that much money.

I can appreciate thier cost if compared to surefire and some others... but I guess some other manufacturers are totally out of touch with reality with thier competition.

I heard a rumour surefire was in trouble because of competition. But any company will suffer if they loose touch with the competition.

If the Helios was "forced" to go up in price.. I hope they know what they are doing.. its too nice of a light to lose off the market.... but I am perplexed as to why they have not upgraded the performance of it in both output, and battery.

Its almost like they think there is no competition or something, like they are the only guys in town with a light this nice in the 3K and less range??
Whenever you raise your price without improvements, thats the only deduction I can come up with?

I hope reality doesn't hit them so hard in the face they go out of business.


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## TeflonBubba (Dec 19, 2006)

For this kind of money, I would probably get a current generation (new) Maxa Beam at 7.5 million CP (bulb rated for 1,000 hours) with POWER flood-to-spot adjustment, and some serious THROW.

Second to the MB, I would go for the lumens giant, the Xeray Barn Burner, or a Xeray 50W with an upgrade to BB.

The styling of Polarion is nice but these would be my choices for THROW and LUMENS, respectively.


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## NAW (Dec 20, 2006)

TeflonBubba said:


> For this kind of money, I would probably get a current generation (new) Maxa Beam at 7.5 million CP (bulb rated for 1,000 hours) with POWER flood-to-spot adjustment, and some serious THROW.
> 
> Second to the MB, I would go for the lumens giant, the Xeray Barn Burner, or a Xeray 50W with an upgrade to BB.
> 
> The styling of Polarion is nice but these would be my choices for THROW and LUMENS, respectively.


 
I'd choose the Helios for power & smallness, Rayzorlite for alot of runtime, & BarnBurner to really tick my neighbors off


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## windstrings (Dec 20, 2006)

XeRay said:


> NO "Metal Halide" type HID of any kind offers instant on to full brightness, The faster it is done the harder it is on both ballast and bulb. To get quicker warm up the HID must be overdriven to speed the process. The highest overdrive rates I have seen are about 100-110 bulb watts and quickly ramping down from there,
> 
> there is no free lunch. I believe, this is one reason the Surefire Hellfire has a "spring loaded" lens cap, this way I believe they turn it on for maybe 10 seconds before opening the cover (covert start up).



So in a nutshell, you are saying based on your knowledge of the ballast that are out there and since you manufactur them you consider yourself an authority, any light that fires up instantly has been rigged so at the expense of ballast "and" bulb life correct?

Since someone brought in "the beast" to the discussion... .lets pick on them for a bit.

Because I think the interpretation most lay people take is simply looking at final performance and assuming it is superior quality... especially since the unbelievable price seems to imply so.

Some of these lights are totally redicuolous in price.... Get aload of this guys "sale price", and its advertized as "the Best HID" light.........."The Beast" 4800.00 "sale price" whoopee! He knocked off a whopping 7.50 cents off the price! :lolsign:

*Based on this crazy price "alone" *I can see why the Helios price was raised... it puts the Helios closer to the same "class" as the Beast in the eyes of the layperson. 

Most laypeople will assume these lights are built with superior ballasts and bulbs to be able to accomplish instant on.

Maybe they need to raise it more.. another 1000.00 dollars.. still quite a bargain right?... only 3000.00 bucks then?
Maybe you need to raise the price of the Xeray too Dan... maybe another 2000.00.... still a bagain compared to the beast that cost another 2K with its "stunning 2K lumen LOL!!!!!? What a joke......
And look as the battery configuration.. they can't even give you a decent battery....


> twenty 123A lithium batteries held securely inside four cylindrical chambers machined into the *SureFire flashlight body*


Its no wonder you don't hear much about the Beast on the forum out here.. it can't stand the heat .......
They are stuck in the past dreaming of apple pie, ice cream and lolliepops!

Dan, you have really spoiled us with the Xeray!..... This is why the introduction of your product has stirred so many!

My first thought is "is anybody actually buying these flashlights???? Ie: the beast?".... but the answer must be obviously yes. Why not tap into the same market I'm sure the Polarion people are thinking!

If the beast if really moving as product I could see the rational for that line of reasoning, Its a matter of being able to sell an elite light that nobody has and hold the price hostage and keep it so high that the competition can't manage to justify competing in that arena due to complex expensive machining and sophisticated feedback systems that smaller companies may not have access to accomodate. But the bottom line is the light only puts out 2K lumens!.. I just can't get over that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is a light that has complex machining and less than half the lumens really worth 4K more? The public is not "just that stupid" they are just "that uninformed".. there is better out there... much better... for cheaper!


*Not to stir the mud furthur, but hopefully actually bring clarity to this silly mess......*

*Your saying the bottom line is that "some" of the expensive lights are actually less in quality in thier internals due to the configuration they have chosen to give "instant on" ablities... correct?*

I'm sure many folks out there will assume your just "slamming" the competition..... maybe you should do a little tweak on your ballast to make them "Instant on" too.. just to prove to them that its no big deal and you can offer both options with a disclaimer and warning for the "instant on" choice.
Your "instant on" light will of course be "cheaper" LOL! since it won't last as long.......

Its of no wonder Surefire is in trouble!!!! they are used to this type of income and its coming to a screeching halt! *Competition just sucks doesn't it???*
Maybe they need to move thier product to somewhere besides America, so they can corner the market again......

I do notice that all the lights with that "instant" on ability doesn't have much of a lifetime on thier bulbs either... they make no claims about the ballast life being shortened and many times they make no claims about their bulb life either!!!.... maybe they figure as long as it makes it through the warranty, thier good and will get more business in repairs.

After all... anyone who spends 5K on a light, is not going to toss it and go get another, they will attempt to get it fixed first, and they will naturally take it back to where they bought it.... pretty good strategy....
Compaq computers used that strategy and look what happened to them....

There are not many companies that really make products to last in such a way that they hope to never see that light again in the repair shop.


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## BVH (Dec 20, 2006)

windstrings said:


> *Not to stir the mud furthur, but hopefully actually bring clarity to this silly mess......*
> 
> *Your saying the bottom line is that "some" of the expensive lights are actually less in quality in thier internals due to the configuration they have chosen to give "instant on" ablities... correct?*



Windy, I'm not saying what's in the quote above is what you and/or Dan believe regarding instant on = lower quality. I don't think the act in and of itself of building an HID light with "instant on" capabilities guarantees a lower quality HID light or necessairly lessens the life of the lamp and ballast. By simply performing the proper engineering calculations and using internal parts capable of the performance called for the by the calcs, you will achieve the desired performance (instant on) without premature failure and a "reduced quality". Naturally, parts capable of higher performance are going to cost more money but you don't automatically make something "lower quality" by designing and building it with certain performance levels. By the way, when I say "instant on" in this case, I mean full on in a few seconds versus 10 to 20 seconds.


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## windstrings (Dec 20, 2006)

BVH said:


> Windy, I'm not saying what's in the quote above is what you and/or Dan believe regarding instant on = lower quality. I don't think the act in and of itself of building an HID light with "instant on" capabilities guarantees a lower quality HID light or necessairly lessens the life of the lamp and ballast. *By simply performing the proper engineering calculations and using internal parts capable of the performance called for the by the calcs, you will achieve the desired performance (instant on) without premature failure and a "reduced quality". Naturally, parts capable of higher performance are going to cost more money* but you don't automatically make something "lower quality" by designing and building it with certain performance levels. By the way, when I say "instant on" in this case, I mean full on in a few seconds versus 10 to 20 seconds.



Question #1.. So it sounds like what you are saying is the parts are out there that are of such quality, that they can take the temporary punishment required to produce the "instant on" abilities "without" lessening the lifespan of the part.. since they are of higher quality and thier tolerances are higher..... correct?

Question #2.. If there parts are out there..... just how much more do these ballast really cost?.. if its negligable, why doesn't everyone toss the old technology and just use the instant on ballasts?

Question #3.. what about the bulb?...... if these high quality parts are available, do they also preserve the bulb life too?


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## BVH (Dec 20, 2006)

Windy, first and foremost, I am not saying that the "process" I cited is what Polarion actually does or did. I am just saying that any company can design a product capable of certain performance levels. Be it an HID light, an automotive alternator, a hydraulic cylinder.

So...

Question 1. Parts, are out there or if they are not, can be manufactured to take the punishment of "instant on" and still meet lifespans equal to that of non instant-on HID's. But again, this applies to all products. They might be bigger parts, parts made of better materials or, who knows.

2. I have no idea what the costs of Polarion's or anyone elses ballasts are.

3. You are being case-specific and I am talking "in general" for all products.

My reply was simply a response to your thoery that "instant-on" equals lower quality. It was not meant to be Polarion specific. I should have probably elaborated this point in the first post.

Remember, I have only one Polarion and TWO Xerays! So I can't be Polarion biased, right?


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## XeRay (Dec 20, 2006)

windstrings said:


> So in a nutshell, you are saying based on your knowledge of the ballast that are out there and since you manufacture them you consider yourself an authority, any light that fires up instantly has been rigged so at the expense of ballast "and" bulb life correct?
> 
> Most laypeople will assume these lights are built with superior ballasts and bulbs to be able to accomplish instant on.
> 
> ...


 
This is not some special knowledge that is exclusive to me. These are just well known facts to those who design HID ballasts for the currently available line of bulbs. Again, as I stated the bulb being used in the Helios and most probably also in the X1 is an ever so slightly modified off the shelf Osram D1S bulb. 

They have removed the metal EMI/RFI shield from the igniter (box), crushed and removed the ceramic tube from the high voltage return wire and bent it closer to the bulb glass and lastly remover the outer portion of the power connector mating surface to reduce the igniter base dimensions. Then they just use individual pins and wires to make the 3 pin connection. All of this low skill modification in a production environment would take 2-3 minutes per bulb.

As I said before extremely fast warm-up comes at a price to bulb life and also possibly ballast life as well, as for the ballast it depends how well the individual components are heat sinked for that VERY fast temperature rise and the proper design for pumping out maybe 150 watts or more for the first few seconds. 4X or maybe even 5X higher than the 35/40 watt steady state operation. 

This in not "superior" design if in fact true, it is a different design with a specific design goal. We do not currently design with those same goals. I do not claim to know the quality of their ballast design or the quality of the components used in that design. I would have to take one apart to make any quality comments. The bulb they have chosen is a quality piece, we also use that bulb (unmodified) in some aviation and industrial applications.

I am not bashing the Helios, it is a work of flashlight art. I am also not bashing its possible performance in this fast starting realm. I am just saying that if Extremely fast full output is a design goal, it comes at a price of bulb life and possibly ballast and battery life as well. If this performance issue is a requirement then one must also accept the down sides. There is NO "silver bullet" in this case. 

With our 50 watt XeRay producing over 3,000 lumens instantly when the arc is struck and then ramping up to over 5000 lumens, I don't feel the need to push the envelope in this way. We also have instant on as do most 30+ watt HID systems, it is only a question of how you define instant on. 

Maybe someone can design a bulb for this instant full output capability using Metal Halide HID. The Osram D1S bulb used by Polarion has not been designed for this. I can also tell you the secondary transformer windings in the igniter which are also used for continuous operation not just start up, were not designed for this either. If you look at our recently updated website you will find we also make igniters for this technology.


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## TeflonBubba (Dec 20, 2006)

Good explanation about the design choices involved. Educational. :goodjob: 

In the end, the consumer, armed with information, can determine which features and trade-offs they prefer.

As you describe, Dan, My Xeray 50W powers up instantly - and then intensifies shortly thereafter.


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## windstrings (Dec 20, 2006)

> In the end, the consumer, armed with information, can determine which features and trade-offs they prefer.



Only problem is most of the info is very generalized.... we don't really "know" what each light has for parts and what makes them tick.. its all speculation and no one wants to definatively say what the story is on "a" particular light.. without that we can't really determine what the trade offs are.

So far, we have accomplished little other than to see who has cards.... until we know what the cards are, we don't know the winning hands....


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 20, 2006)

** LuxLuthor gives sly grin while holding a straight flush....*
"_*Oh ummm...yeah....Windy...did you want to start the betting....I'm not quite sure how to play this game....?"*_​


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## Lips (Dec 20, 2006)

.

I'm a little saddened and surprised by the unannounced price increase of the Helios for I was looking at getting one for a shoot-out. 


The Helios line has had it's share of battery and switch problems. The problems have been on the prototypes $1000 sold as well as the production units albeit privately. This is most-likely true with any new complex product. 


The dealers and manufactures of these lights use the forums as a form of cheap advertisement and word of mouth advertising. The dealers and manufacturers should give back to the community in some fashion. I'll take my give-back in the form of a cpf discount... 


.


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## NAW (Dec 20, 2006)

I'm surprised that the price of the Helios is greater than that of the X1. I figured with the smaller ballast the X1 would be more expensive than the Helios... but I guess not.


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## BVH (Dec 20, 2006)

Windy, we have an idea of the trade-off that may or may not occur with regard to the Helios instant-on feature. Polarion says the lamp as used in their light, is good for 2500 hours. The light has a 1-year warranty. If the lamp or ballast dies within the year, it will be repaired/replaced. We know this going in - you can bank on it. These are facts you know that you can use to make a purchase/no purchase decision. Beyond that, you take a chance. The way I see it with regard to the lamp, (and this is old news that has been hashed over a few times) if you use the light for an hour a day, 365 days a year, it will last - according to Polarion, 6.8 years or so. Chances are, you're probably going to have long gotten rid of the light by that time and replaced it with the new and improved model. I think the lamp may have a normal rated life of 3000? If the instant-start feature robs 1/2 of the life of the lamp, that (3.4 years of life) is something I am willing to live with.


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## LITEDISORDER (Dec 20, 2006)

YEA! What he said.


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## windstrings (Dec 20, 2006)

BVH said:


> Windy, we have an idea of the trade-off that may or may not occur with regard to the Helios instant-on feature. Polarion says the lamp as used in their light, is good for 2500 hours. The light has a 1-year warranty. If the lamp or ballast dies within the year, it will be repaired/replaced. We know this going in - you can bank on it. These are facts you know that you can use to make a purchase/no purchase decision. Beyond that, you take a chance. The way I see it with regard to the lamp, (and this is old news that has been hashed over a few times) if you use the light for an hour a day, 365 days a year, it will last - according to Polarion, 6.8 years or so. Chances are, you're probably going to have long gotten rid of the light by that time and replaced it with the new and improved model. I think the lamp may have a normal rated life of 3000? If the instant-start feature robs 1/2 of the life of the lamp, that (3.4 years of life) is something I am willing to live with.



If the instant startup only knocks 1/3 life off the bulb, its a feature I wouldn't mind having as a tradeoff either, but I'm still wondering whats up with the ballast.. but at any rate.. its a very expensive feature if thats all we are talking about.

In fact if the Xerays had an option to get instant startup with guarantee the ballast will stay happy.. I would take that tradeoff. But we are talking about a light that cost less than half what the Helios cost.... 

it is an interesting tradeoff..... if we knew exactly what was involved in that tradeoff "besides bulb life" it may be worth choosing.. but not for another 1600.00.


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## BVH (Dec 20, 2006)

Better not go to Vegas if you're not willing to gamble a bit. :nana:


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## windstrings (Dec 20, 2006)

BVH said:


> Better not go to Vegas if you're not willing to gamble a bit. :nana:



Thats one way to put it... you must be a highroller to play around with that kind of money.....


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 21, 2006)

[LOL] I don't know why you guys are arguing about such minor nuances as the cost effectiveness of variations with instant-on features, since these lights are only being marketed to the military and government agencies. 

We CPF'ers only "want the power of the sun for the price of a candy bar and the size of an Orb Raw," so we have no business being involved in conversations like this....let alone actual considerations for buying these lights. Well I guess you could enlist in the Army and then maybe consider having your Sgt. buy one for your unit's C.O. to enjoy. [/LOL]


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## mtbkndad (Dec 21, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> [LOL] I don't know why you guys are arguing about such minor nuances as the cost effectiveness of variations with instant-on features, since these lights are only being marketed to the military and government agencies.
> 
> We CPF'ers only "want the power of the sun for the price of a candy bar and the size of an Orb Raw," so we have no business being involved in conversations like this....let alone actual considerations for buying these lights. Well I guess you could enlist in the Army and then maybe consider having your Sgt. buy one for your unit's C.O. to enjoy. [/LOL]



For the record, I really do want the power of the sun for the price of a candy bar and the size of and Orb Raw and know other CPF members that want the same thing. 
Based on Mac's post I will add one more feature.
I WANT IT TO STAY OFF WHEN IT IS OFF!!!!!!
  

I have an aversion to flaming backpack syndrome!
  

Aside from that, I completely agree with you about arguing about the cost effectiveness of such features. I know of certain military and security applications where instant on would be a must. Therefore the cost of such features, whether in dollars spent to purchase or in compontent life, would be incidental. However aside from those, my HID light that warms up in around 10 seconds (fairly dim to bright enough for use) is just fine.

My Costco HID's were used for extra fill light in my shop the other night and their roughly 30 second warm up was just fine.

My take on all of these lights is, find the features that are most important to you and buy accordingly. For me the light output of a Barn Burner is just overkill.   

Small size and packability are king. I also want it to be rugged.
I do stand by what I was saying about marketing to the military and government agencies. Not exclusively, but it seems to be a primary focus. Whether dealing with Surfire Hellfighter, Beast 2, Polarion Helios, or Polarion X1.

The unfortunate thing about this for private consumers is that the suggested retail price for single unit purchases needs to be at a level that allows sufficient room for quantity discounts. Often the larger the quantity the larger the discount. Now if a light comes from a corporation then through several distribution channels before reaching dealers there need to be sufficient margins for the dealers to be able to "deal" so to speak.
This is very common in multiple industries.
I have a card in my wallet that allows me to go one of the businesses (a large corporation) that I used to get supplies from and get a discount that is way below the normal discount given to contractors. This is a corporation that has many retail establishments
Why, because of another corporation that is one of my clients.

With lights like the 4 I mentioned, I do not personally see another option for marketing them. They are WAY overkill for the average person and there certainly are not enough CPF members to sustain these companies.
On top of that I found out Polarion did design and does manufacture most of the parts, body, reflector, ballast, etc.. of the Helios and X1, That means companies like Surefire and Polarion have to factor R & D into their prices.

I agree with Windstrings in principle here, it would have been better for Polarion to start with a higher price first and then when R & D is somewhat recouped or when actual production costs are better understood the price could have possibly come down and people would be happier then going the other direction with the price and have people complaining to their dealers and distributors.
It is one thing if a light is priced completely out of range of us private people to begin with like the Beast 2. It is more disheartening if it is priced at the fringe of what we can afford and then jumps up. :hairpull:

Regarding the topic of this thread more directly, I believe Ken's statement regarding the lights costing more to produce then expected seems to indicate the price increase came from Polarion.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## windstrings (Dec 21, 2006)

OK.. that makes sense.. so lets all me at my house at 6:00 for kiss and makeup!... I'll serve the whine... I mean "wine"..... :laughing:


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## mtbkndad (Dec 21, 2006)

windstrings said:


> OK.. that makes sense.. so lets all me at my house at 6:00 for kiss and makeup!... I'll serve the whine... I mean "wine"..... :laughing:



If I lived closer we could make a CPF get together out of it :grouphug: while doing beam shots of the lights shining across the lake. Those would be some really nice shots :huh: if there are any objects on the lake that could be focused on. :huh:

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 21, 2006)

I would volunteer to go swimming just for the target practice.:rock:


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## windstrings (Dec 21, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> I would volunteer to go swimming just for the target practice.:rock:



I"m sure there are plenty of rednecks around here that may take you up on that...... its deer season!

So which light do you want on you again?


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 22, 2006)

windstrings said:


> I"m sure there are plenty of rednecks around here that may take you up on that...... its deer season!
> 
> So which light do you want on you again?



How about that custom built flashing X-1 that Mac has? I can fashion it into a hat...and of course it is waterproof for my dives to make it a challenge.


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## BVH (Dec 22, 2006)

I vote for the tank light!


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## windstrings (Dec 22, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> How about that custom built flashing X-1 that Mac has? I can fashion it into a hat...and of course it is waterproof for my dives to make it a challenge.



that would work.. but they will start timing your breath to determine how long you can stay under and be ready to open fire when you come up..... you better put the light on the end of a long stick!


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## mtbkndad (Dec 22, 2006)

windstrings said:


> that would work.. but they will start timing your breath to determine how long you can stay under and be ready to open fire when you come up..... you better put the light on the end of a long stick!



Our job on shore would be to blind the hunters with our remaining HID's as Luthluthor is about to surface. Now those would REALLY be some amazing photos.    We would need the HID's on long enough to blind the hunters and get the photos and the turn them off before we become the targets.  
Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 22, 2006)

I'm gonna skunk all you lame Texas hunting dudes, who are only used to dealing with things on 4 legs, by bringing one of these Spare Air buddies. After a while, like the hunters in Wisconsin, you will start shooting each other.





​


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