# Surefire, Fenix and Streamlight



## gothed (Oct 12, 2011)

As a general question: Fenix and Streamlight seem to be much cheaper the Surefire. What does surefire have to justify the high price? On paper the Fenix and Streamlight lights seem to match or even outperform the Surefires. Fenix and Streamlight, however, also do not appear cheaply made so what is the deal? (Sorry for my ignorance.)

Specifically I have selected two lights from each manufacturer that I am interested in.

Streamlight:
ProTac™ 2L (180, 10 lumen) ~ 55 USD
Scorpion X ~ 55 USD (200, 10 lumen) ~ 55 USD

Fenix:
PD31 Special (304, 124, 67, 2 lumen) ~ 80 USD [Regulated]
TK21 (448, 180, 58, 5 lumen) ~ 100 USD

Surefire: 
G2X Pro (200, 15) ~ 85 USD
LX2 LumaMax (200, 15 lumen) ~ 150 - 200 USD

On paper fenix is brighter for less money then Surefire.
On paper Streamlight has the exact same performance as Surefire but at a much lower price, ProTac is a quarter of the price of LumaMax.

To top it all off, from the above selected light, PD31 is the only one that advertises regulated output (that is no dimming in light until the very end.).
If I had to make an uninformed decision I would purchase the PD31 for its regulated output.

1. Are the surefire and streamlight lights NOT regulated?
2. What can possibly justify the high price of the LX2 LumaMax?

thanks for reading.


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## Vesper (Oct 12, 2011)

Here we go...


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## pjandyho (Oct 12, 2011)

No offense intended but I am sure you are ignorant to the fact that threads like yours' always end up being closed because it usually ends in a Surefire vs. so and so war. There are tons of thread started on why Surefire are so good and you have been here since 2007 so please do a search in CPF before posting.


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## gothed (Oct 12, 2011)

no please understand that I do not want this to be a surefire vs. bla thread. I simply want to understand the features that Surefire has that the others may or may not have.

For example I have heard that Surefire has TIR optics on the LumaMax, but I do not know what that is so I wouldn't understand why it justifies a higher price.

Maybe Surefire has regulated output on all of their lights? I don't know. I simply want to understand the features of the lights so that I can then make a decision. Maybe I want TIR optics, maybe not. I don't know as I don't know what they are and I have never held or played with any of the above lights, again I just want to know whats "beyond the specs/paper".

EDIT: BTW I am also looking for answer to my very specific question, is the PD31 the only regulated light in the line up?

thanks


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## dosei-45 (Oct 12, 2011)

Bear in mind that I do not think of myself as a Surefire Kool-Aide drinker...the one and only Surefire I own is a 6z from about 20 years ago. I've owned Fenix and love 'em. My newest light is a Sunwayman V20C, which I'm crazy about. But if I needed a light that I could "trust with my life", I would get a Surefire. They are overbuilt little tanks that run the LEDs on the conservative side so that you can run 'em at max non-stop without concern.


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## fivebyfive (Oct 12, 2011)

I think anyone would agree that one of the factors as to why Surefire is more expensive than Streamlight and Fenix is because of advertising/ marketing costs. Flip through any industry related magazine and you will find at least one full page advertisement from Surefire. Those ads aren't cheap.


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## Shooter21 (Oct 12, 2011)

One reason why surfire is so expensive is because its made in the USA and american workers are more expensive. But the main reason surefire is so expensive is because they are built to last forever and if anything ever happens to one they will repair or replace the torch free of charge since they all have a life time warranty.


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## nbp (Oct 12, 2011)

Maybe a more appropriate way to ask your question, then, would be to explain your needs to us and ask for thoughts on which one suits those needs best, and leave discussion of price out of it, as that has been done to death. Price/value varies by person, and that's why it is volatile subject matter. An objective discussion of the relevant features of the lights, however, is a useful discussion indeed.


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## pjandyho (Oct 12, 2011)

nbp said:


> Maybe a more appropriate way to ask your question, then, would be to explain your needs to us and ask for thoughts on which one suits those needs best, and leave discussion of price out of it, as that has been done to death. Price/value varies by person, and that's why it is volatile subject matter. An objective discussion of the relevant features of the lights, however, is a useful discussion indeed.


+100! Just exactly what I wanted to say. Spent some time typing it and my internet connection got cut.


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## TomH (Oct 12, 2011)

Shooter21 said:


> But the main reason surefire is so expensive is because they are built to last forever and if anything ever happens to one they will repair or replace the torch free of charge since they all have a life time warranty.



I don't think that's the reason at all. Streamlight has just as good of a warranty as Surefire, yet comparable Streamlight models typically cost anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 less.


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## Cataract (Oct 12, 2011)




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## gothed (Oct 12, 2011)

dosei-45 said:


> Bear in mind that I do not think of myself as a Surefire Kool-Aide drinker...the one and only Surefire I own is a 6z from about 20 years ago. I've owned Fenix and love 'em. My newest light is a Sunwayman V20C, which I'm crazy about. But if I needed a light that I could "trust with my life", I would get a Surefire. They are overbuilt little tanks that run the LEDs on the conservative side so that you can run 'em at max non-stop without concern.



thank you, this was the type of response I was looking for.



fivebyfive said:


> I think anyone would agree that one of the factors as to why Surefire is more expensive than Streamlight and Fenix is because of advertising/ marketing costs. Flip through any industry related magazine and you will find at least one full page advertisement from Surefire. Those ads aren't cheap.



Also very helpful, thank you.



Shooter21 said:


> One reason why surfire is so expensive is because its made in the USA and american workers are more expensive. But the main reason surefire is so expensive is because they are built to last forever and if anything ever happens to one they will repair or replace the torch free of charge since they all have a life time warranty.



I assume Fenix and Surefire are not made in the USA? Also a helpful reply, thank you



nbp said:


> Maybe a more appropriate way to ask your question, then, would be to explain your needs to us and ask for thoughts on which one suits those needs best, and leave discussion of price out of it, as that has been done to death. Price/value varies by person, and that's why it is volatile subject matter. An objective discussion of the relevant features of the lights, however, is a useful discussion indeed.



Since you asked:
1. Must be CR123 based (long shelf life)
2. Must run off of two cr123 (this roughly sets the size of the light with some variance in reflector design)
3. Must be a regulated output of light, that is the brightness of the light is constant until the batteries are drained at which point it rapidly cuts off. (In contrast to the old incandescent lights that diminish as soon as you put a battery in)
4. Must have at least two modes: One that is very bright and one that will make the batters last more then 24 hours yet be capable of illuminating a trail in front of your feet.
5. Submersible to at-least 1 meter.

This should be a flashlight that is very versatile, no specific applications in mind. BUT it must be reliable.

Specific Questions:
1. What is this "Total Internal Reflection (TIR) lens" that Surefire advertises, and how does it compare to the lens on a the fenix PD31?
2. Is the PD31 the only one out of the above mentioned that has regulated output.

thanks to those of you that have responded.

EDIT: Again I apologize as I did not mean to start a Surefire vs. Fenix vs. Streamlight thread, I was/am overwhelmed by the offerings from these companies and want to understand the pros and cons of them.


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## Shooter21 (Oct 12, 2011)

Surefire is made in the USA but fenix and most other brands are made in china


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## 880arm (Oct 12, 2011)

1. SureFire TIR lights use a special lens in place of the reflector used on most lights. It's supposed to do a better job of capturing all output from the emitter (thus the name) and focus it into a tighter beam. This doesn't mean that it's a throw monster with no spill, it's just more focused than similarly sized lights.
2. The LX2 is regulated but I'm not sure about the others. You can see more info on the SureFire website.

Like someone else mentioned, it really has everything to do with personal taste and intended use. As far as output is concerned, SureFire has the reputation, deservedly in my opinion, of rating their lights very conservatively. Also, as others have mentioned, they don't push their LED's as hard as some manufacturers in the interest of longevity and reliability.


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## Tommygun45 (Oct 12, 2011)

God this has been debated so many times but its still relevant. I was there a year ago. Since then I have bought about 10 Surefire's and 8 Chinese lights. I have sold all but 1 of the Chinese lights and have kept the Surefire's, except my 6PX Pro*. I do not have unlimited resources I just like quality stuff. To get an idea get yourself an account over on the marketplace. Look for some Surefire's. Ones that are 5 years old will still sell for typically no less than $50. Get one of these and give it a whirl. If you don't like it just sell it the next week and you will get your money back. Everything about them just screams quality. The threads are nice and feel good. The walls of the lights are thicker. It fits together better. If you have any issues with them you simply call the SF customer support line, and within 2 minutes you are talking to an American. If anything has gone wrong with the light, almost anything, they will just send you a replacement part/light. I emailed O-Light last week, twice, and still have not heard back. That was $139 SR-51 I had a question about. Wasn't a cheapy.

I would however stay away from the 6px/g2x series of lights. I have not had good luck with them. They have a mode bump issue that is pretty well recorded over in that thread that is always in the front. Ive sent my 6PX back to them twice and they have replaced it with new ones both times, but all 3 of them had the issue. Another factor is the upgradability of the 6p, c2, z2, etc series. There is a ton of aftermarket parts that you can buy from the likes of Malkoff, Nailbender, etc. These are "P60" series parts. When a new LED comes out you can simply sell your old one, and buy a new one and plop it into your Surefire. This applies to both the e series, l series, and the other guys I just mentioned. The new g2x, 6px however are not easily upgradable. 

In the end you can try to save a few bucks and buy the foreign made lights. If you are like me though you will constantly wonder what the hype is about, then you'll take the plunge. Then you will realize what you were missing out on the whole time. Also, don't pay full price for any Surefire. Again, they are constantly on the Marketplace and there are many retailers that advertise here that offer up to 20% off new SF products. This can bring the price down considerably. Once you are in this quality light world you will also find the likes of Malkoff and HDS to be most desirable. Good luck, and save your pennies.


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## Robin24k (Oct 12, 2011)

All of those lights are regulated, and you can even find a runtime graph on the Scorpion X's Fact Sheet.

http://www.streamlight.com/documents/fact-sheet/209.pdf



Shooter21 said:


> Surefire is made in the USA but fenix and most other brands are made in china


Most of Streamlight's products are made or assembled in the US (ie. Stinger and Strion), but the ProTac series is Made in China. This information can be found in the Fact Sheets on their website.


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## carrot (Oct 12, 2011)

While there is nothing wrong with Streamlight or Fenix (they do make nice lights), Surefire is simply a cut above. If you, like me, demand excellence from your tools, Surefire will put a big grin on your face and not let you down.


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## gothed (Oct 12, 2011)

880arm said:


> 1. SureFire TIR lights use a special lens in place of the reflector used on most lights. It's supposed to do a better job of capturing all output from the emitter (thus the name) and focus it into a tighter beam. This doesn't mean that it's a throw monster with no spill, it's just more focused than similarly sized lights.
> 2. The LX2 is regulated but I'm not sure about the others. You can see more info on the SureFire website.
> 
> Like someone else mentioned, it really has everything to do with personal taste and intended use. As far as output is concerned, SureFire has the reputation, deservedly in my opinion, of rating their lights very conservatively. Also, as others have mentioned, they don't push their LED's as hard as some manufacturers in the interest of longevity and reliability.



Thank you. This is exactly the kind of information I need to make an informed decision. (Too bad I can't try them out first : P)



Shooter21 said:


> Surefire is made in the USA but fenix and most other brands are made in china



Good to know.



ITPython said:


> Most 4Sevens lights meet all of these demands, especially the Tactical series since you can program any two modes of light into the head (which can be changed by simply turning the head). So no retarded cycling through 10 modes to access the light you want, just program the head for whatever two modes you want, and you can change it at any time too.
> 
> Here is the Tactical R5 123x2 edition. It has a max mode with 230 lumens at 1.8 hours, a high mode at 65 lumens for 4.5 hours, lower 22 lumen mode that lasts for 20 hours, a low mode with 4 lumens for 4 days, or a moonlight mode that lasts for 30 days.
> http://www.4sevens.com/product_info.php?cPath=297_306&products_id=1654
> ...



Well damn, that light does look very nice and affordable. Just when I thought I was ready to make a decision this pops up. Defiantly a big thanks for pointing me to this light.

This sure does make me wonder why Fenix claims longer runtime AND higher lumen output, with the same LED and same battery setup. mhh ...

What type of regulation does the 4seven light use, is it current regulated like the fenix and lumamax? 

thanks


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## carrot (Oct 12, 2011)

gothed said:


> This sure does make me wonder why Fenix claims longer runtime AND higher lumen output, with the same LED and same battery setup. mhh ...
> 
> What type of regulation does the 4seven light use, is it current regulated like the fenix and lumamax?
> 
> thanks


Fenix does not use as stringent tests as 4sevens. Like Surefire, 4sevens tends to underrate their lights.

The Quark Tactical models are current regulated. The MiNis are not.


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## gothed (Oct 12, 2011)

carrot said:


> Fenix does not use as stringent tests as 4sevens. Like Surefire, 4sevens tends to underrate their lights.
> 
> The Quark Tactical models are current regulated. The MiNis are not.



Damn it guys, these 4seven lights seem nicer then the fenix AND cheaper. So I guess ill go with a 4seven light, but now the question is XM-L vs. XM-G. waaaaa, sooo hard to spend money 

Are there beamshots comparing the XM-L and XM-G versions of the quark. I only found http://lygte-info.dk/review/Beamshot Quark 2011-08 UK.html which compares the XM-L to the PD-31 which is XM-G, but not to the quark XM-G.

thanks guys


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## jondotcom (Oct 12, 2011)

Shooter21 said:


> One reason why surfire is so expensive is because its made in the USA



Just to be clear, you state "made" per country of origin laws, but do you mean "assembled and tested?" Just want to be clear because some is semantics and some is marketing.

I had assumed they met the current definition per COO but also assumed the components are globally sourced, as is done with other products like Warn winches.

Edit- Never Mind, found it. They appear to be foreign sourced lights but they assemble and tested here, like a hyundai or kia


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## Shooter21 (Oct 13, 2011)

gothed said:


> Damn it guys, these 4seven lights seem nicer then the fenix AND cheaper. So I guess ill go with a 4seven light, but now the question is XM-L vs. XM-G. waaaaa, sooo hard to spend money
> 
> Are there beamshots comparing the XM-L and XM-G versions of the quark. I only found http://lygte-info.dk/review/Beamshot Quark 2011-08 UK.html which compares the XM-L to the PD-31 which is XM-G, but not to the quark XM-G.
> 
> thanks guys


With the XP-G emitter you will notice a tighter hotspot as opposed to an XM-L emitter in which you will see it is more dispersed when the same size reflector is used.


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## carrot (Oct 13, 2011)

jondotcom said:


> Just to be clear, you state "made" per country of origin laws, but do you mean "assembled and tested?" Just want to be clear because some is semantics and some is marketing.



Here is your answer, buddy: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ade-in-China&p=3328538&viewfull=1#post3328538


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## pjandyho (Oct 13, 2011)

Since you are interested in 4Sevens, let me also make certain facts known to you. They don't make perfect lights but their lights are pretty nice to have for the price. I truly feel that all Flashaholic should own at least one 4Sevens.

But let me point out the differences before you buy. I have owned a number of 4Sevens lights and they have worked great. So far none have failed me yet. But, I am just disappointed that most of my 4Sevens lights are fogging up on the lens after a few times of using it. Once in a while I would receive a new light that is already partially fogged. I don't know if it is the weather in Asia that is causing the fogging but out of all my 30+ Surefire lights only one has a slight fogging on the lens. Contacted 4Sevens customer service and sent all the lights to them, waited a few weeks only to hear them say that nothing is wrong and they shipped it back with nothing done. How can nothing be wrong when I could barely see the LED emitter on one of my MiNi 123? Surefire however replaced me an entire new head when I send mine in for cleaning, and that one is only a very very minor fog on the side of the lens window.

Another issue is the anodizing. All my Surefire lights have been put through good use but their type 3 anodizing still hold up. Not my 4Sevens lights. One by one I see their anodizing chipping off here and there. Both company claimed they provide type 3 anodizing which is the hardest anodize available for aluminum flashlights but why 4Sevens always have a tendency to chip much faster?

4Sevens have thinner body walls. Nicer to EDC since it is lighter but it also always mean that all your 4Sevens lights heat up much faster and can get so hot it is uncomfortable to hold.

All these may sound like an anti-4Sevens post but it is not. I would still buy 4Sevens in a heartbeat and all I am trying to tell you is that you have to aware before you buy to avoid disappointment.


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## leon2245 (Oct 13, 2011)

o


gothed said:


> I simply want to understand the features that Surefire has that the others may or may not have.



Superior warranty, customer service, quality control, machining, threads, anodization, looks, fit & finish, reliability, etc. 

I say splurge on the LX2. If you find it's not worth the premium, you won't lose much if anything by passing it along on the MP.


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## ico (Oct 13, 2011)

Vesper said:


> Here we go...


 
+1


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## purelite (Oct 13, 2011)

At the time it was released the Surefire L4 was the most amazing cutting edge small light on the market. I had one and it was absoltley amazing at the time. The Lux V led puts out a HUGE amount of heat yes, that was the best the technology could offer back then. Also the L4 is a small light. I have a small light today with an XPG emitter in it and it gets super hot on high after a cpl minites also. Is the L4 a failure of a light? No it is a great example of the progression of the super compact high performing LED flashlight . Its a classic with nothing to be ashamed of 

I find it interesting that so many still talk about their L4s today and are using them as opposed to the countless made in China lights from 5 years ago. Funny you dont hear much about them or see all of them for sale at high askig prices.


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## jamesmtl514 (Oct 13, 2011)

If you buy into Surefire. You gain the pros already mentioned as well as being able to LEGO your lights.
You have been on here since 2007, so none of this should be new, however Surefire makes sure that most of it's lights within a series E or P,G,C or M share common/interchangeable parts.
Their lights are ready for anything you can throw at them, or throw them at, straight out of the box.

Another popular light manufacturer here sends lights with foggy lenses, poor threads, loose and dirty contacts. Many users reported having to clean or modify their lights out of the box before they could enjoy them. 
You get what you pay for. 

Another very nice light that is made in the USA is the Malkoff MD2. Have a look at that one.


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## gothed (Oct 13, 2011)

Shooter21 said:


> With the XP-G emitter you will notice a tighter hotspot as opposed to an XM-L emitter in which you will see it is more dispersed when the same size reflector is used.


 
Yea, but which one of those I wan't I am not sure. I suppose for a light this bright a floody beam is acceptable/better.

But to add to the injury I just found out about the XM-L U2, what is the difference to the XM-L?



ITPython said:


> No, problem, glad I could be of some help. And not sure why Fenix has different runtime and lumen output with the same emitter, just differences in the driver I suppose. Although 4Sevens does rate their lights lumen output via OTF rather than at the emitter (which Fenix might do). OTF ratings are more realistic measurements in terms of actual output, but taking emitter lumen output makes your light sound a heck of a lot brighter on paper. A Fenix light doing 650 lumens at the emitter may only be 350 OTF lumens (I really don't know how extreme the difference is, but you get the idea).
> 
> As for the type of regulation, I just checked back over the 4seven page and they claim to be current regulated, so there you have it
> 
> ...


 


pjandyho said:


> Since you are interested in 4Sevens, let me also make certain facts known to you. They don't make perfect lights but their lights are pretty nice to have for the price. I truly feel that all Flashaholic should own at least one 4Sevens.
> 
> But let me point out the differences before you buy. I have owned a number of 4Sevens lights and they have worked great. So far none have failed me yet. But, I am just disappointed that most of my 4Sevens lights are fogging up on the lens after a few times of using it. Once in a while I would receive a new light that is already partially fogged. I don't know if it is the weather in Asia that is causing the fogging but out of all my 30+ Surefire lights only one has a slight fogging on the lens. Contacted 4Sevens customer service and sent all the lights to them, waited a few weeks only to hear them say that nothing is wrong and they shipped it back with nothing done. How can nothing be wrong when I could barely see the LED emitter on one of my MiNi 123? Surefire however replaced me an entire new head when I send mine in for cleaning, and that one is only a very very minor fog on the side of the lens window.
> 
> ...


 


leon2245 said:


> Superior warranty, customer service, quality control, machining, threads, anodization, looks, fit & finish, reliability, etc.
> 
> I say splurge on the LX2. If you find it's not worth the premium, you won't lose much if anything by passing it along on the MP.


 


jamesmtl514 said:


> If you buy into Surefire. You gain the pros already mentioned as well as being able to LEGO your lights.
> You have been on here since 2007, so none of this should be new, however Surefire makes sure that most of it's lights within a series E or P,G,C or M share common/interchangeable parts.
> Their lights are ready for anything you can throw at them, or throw them at, straight out of the box.
> 
> ...



Thanks for all the constructive responses. This was exactly what I am looking for. I now understand why people spend the money on surefire, and I am sure it is well worth it. But Fenix/4Seven seems like a good intermediary step for someone who only owns maglights.

BTW I joined in 07 to do my own Pelican Mod of a 3D maglight running 2x6 AA in parallel. I have no experience with LED and never lurked in the high performance flashlight threads, just the mods.

again, thanks for all the responses


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## jeffkruse (Oct 13, 2011)

Since I have already had 4 Fenix lights go bad on me because I used them on full power for many hours, Can I use a Surefire light on full power all the time. I want to get at least 1000 hours of use (7 hours a week * 52 weeks * 3 years). In my other thread lots of people told me I can't use the lights at full power for long periods. Is there something different with Surefire?


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## carrot (Oct 13, 2011)

purelite said:


> At the time it was released the Surefire L4 was the most amazing cutting edge small light on the market. I had one and it was absoltley amazing at the time. The Lux V led puts out a HUGE amount of heat yes, that was the best the technology could offer back then. Also the L4 is a small light. I have a small light today with an XPG emitter in it and it gets super hot on high after a cpl minites also. Is the L4 a failure of a light? No it is a great example of the progression of the super compact high performing LED flashlight . Its a classic with nothing to be ashamed of
> 
> I find it interesting that so many still talk about their L4s today and are using them as opposed to the countless made in China lights from 5 years ago. Funny you dont hear much about them or see all of them for sale at high askig prices.


Yeah... SureFires are great, even years after they've become "outdated".


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## carrot (Oct 13, 2011)

jeffkruse said:


> Since I have already had 4 Fenix lights go bad on me because I used them on full power for many hours, Can I use a Surefire light on full power all the time. I want to get at least 1000 hours of use (7 hours a week * 52 weeks * 3 years). In my other thread lots of people told me I can't use the lights at full power for long periods. Is there something different with Surefire?



They are built for longevity and have a great customer service to back them up should anything go wrong one year, two years, ten years down the line.

Speaking of your other flashlights, you should see if the dealer you bought from will replace or repair them. Fenix does offer a pretty decent warranty.


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## gothed (Oct 13, 2011)

jeffkruse said:


> Since I have already had 4 Fenix lights go bad on me because I used them on full power for many hours, Can I use a Surefire light on full power all the time. I want to get at least 1000 hours of use (7 hours a week * 52 weeks * 3 years). In my other thread lots of people told me I can't use the lights at full power for long periods. Is there something different with Surefire?



From what I understand this would be exactly what surefire is good at. But my tasks simply aren't mission critical and sadly I am not made of money : (.


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## yowzer (Oct 13, 2011)

One reason the LX2's price is what it is is that it's more complicated to make than many other lights. The optic reportedly needs to be adjusted and focused by hand before the bezel is glued shut, the dual-stage tailcap is more complicated than a normal clicky switch, the inside of the tube is coated with a protective layer instead of left as raw metal... every extra part and step, especially those that need a human instead of automation, raise the cost to make something.


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## Moonshadow (Oct 13, 2011)

> But to add to the injury I just found out about the XM-L U2, what is the difference to the XM-L?



U2 is the next flux bin up from T6. 300-320 Lumens at 700 mA.

You can download the datasheet from here:

http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp_xml.asp


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## gothed (Oct 13, 2011)

Moonshadow said:


> U2 is the next flux bin up from T6. 300-320 Lumens at 700 mA.
> 
> You can download the datasheet from here:
> 
> http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp_xml.asp



so it is simply brighter at the same current? Tint and throw pattern all remains the same?

So what you are saying is that it is simply the better of the two, is that correct or am I missing some cons?

EDIT: Do all bins come from the same manufacturing line and are simply "sorted" by brightness, or do bins signify different production methods?

thanks


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## krazytekn0 (Oct 13, 2011)

Old surefire are on clearance right now at lapolicegear since their new line is coming out. I just got a new surefire for about half off. This may change you decision criteria

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Shooter21 (Oct 13, 2011)

gothed said:


> so it is simply brighter at the same current? Tint and throw pattern all remains the same?
> 
> So what you are saying is that it is simply the better of the two, is that correct or am I missing some cons?
> 
> ...


it just depends on what your primary use is going to be, For general usage the XM-L emitter is better since it gives you a more dispersed beam which is useful when navigating but if you're searching for something that is far away you want a smaller emitter like the XP-G since it would reach out farther.


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## gothed (Oct 13, 2011)

Shooter21 said:


> it just depends on what your primary use is going to be, For general usage the XM-L emitter is better since it gives you a more dispersed beam which is useful when navigating but if you're searching for something that is far away you want a smaller emitter like the XP-G since it would reach out farther.



I believe you misunderstood, I was referencing the XM-L R5 vs. XM-L U2.

thanks


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## Shooter21 (Oct 13, 2011)

gothed said:


> I believe you misunderstood, I was referencing the XM-L R5 vs. XM-L U2.
> 
> thanks


i believe the U2 emitter is more efficient so you can get more output at the same amount of current and the U2 bin can be pushed a little harder. But i dont know the specifics about these emitters so maybe someone else can chime in.


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## carrot (Oct 13, 2011)

gothed said:


> I believe you misunderstood, I was referencing the XM-L R5 vs. XM-L U2.
> 
> thanks



I am pretty sure an XM-L R5 does not exist. There is an XP-G R5 and an XM-L U2.

The "XP-G" and "XM-L" refer to the shape and size of the LED package, which can have quite a big difference on the beam.

The "R5", "S2", "T6", "U2" refer to the bin and relative efficiency of the LED and does not have a significant difference on the beam (besides brightness)


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## gothed (Oct 13, 2011)

carrot said:


> I am pretty sure an XM-L R5 does not exist. There is an XP-G R5 and an XM-L U2.
> 
> The "XP-G" and "XM-L" refer to the shape and size of the LED package, which can have quite a big difference on the beam.
> 
> The "R5", "S2", "T6", "U2" refer to the bin and relative efficiency of the LED and does not have a significant difference on the beam (besides brightness)



You are right I got it mixed up, I meant to say XM-L T6 vs. XM-L U2.

so different bins are just natural variations that occur during production?


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## Bobby_C (Oct 13, 2011)

carrot said:


> They are built for longevity and have a great customer service to back them up should anything go wrong one year, two years, ten years down the line.
> 
> Speaking of your other flashlights, you should see if the dealer you bought from will replace or repair them. Fenix does offer a pretty decent warranty.



Surefires are more reliable because they're not pushed to the max limits of the LED or batteries so they can run as long as you want with much less chance of failure. Kinda like a race car engine vs Camry engine. The race engine is tuned within an inch of blowing up to get the most out of it for a race duration and no more. The Camry engine is designed to last for hundreds of thousands of miles.

_Edit_: I'll also say that I'm not very impressed with Fenix's quality. I had a E21 that the tailswitch failed in about 2 weeks of minimal use. I handled a couple of others that were ok though. I also have a E01 and a LD01 SS that seem ok but they're small lights and seem pretty tough.



gothed said:


> From what I understand this would be exactly what surefire is good at. But my tasks simply aren't mission critical and sadly I am not made of money : (.



You can find some good deals on them every once in a while. I just picked up a brand new 6P Defender for under $50 a couple of weeks ago.


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## Chadder (Oct 13, 2011)

I think it is very important to mention that all of these brands have both strengths and weaknesses. That is why you should own about ten of each like me  If you spend time really researching lights you will find there are other companies out there charging higher prices than Surefire and putting out a lesser product. I could start a list but you can find them yourself with little effort. Just my 2cents.


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## Grizzlyb (Oct 13, 2011)

ITPython said:


> No, problem, glad I could be of some help. And not sure why Fenix has different runtime and lumen output with the same emitter, just differences in the driver I suppose. Although 4Sevens does rate their lights lumen output via OTF rather than at the emitter (which Fenix might do). OTF ratings are more realistic measurements in terms of actual output, but taking emitter lumen output makes your light sound a heck of a lot brighter on paper. A Fenix light doing 650 lumens at the emitter may only be 350 OTF lumens (I really don't know how extreme the difference is, but you get the idea).











I must disagree, 
Modern lights like Fenix, Jetbeam, Sunwayman and 4Seven all shifted to measuring ANSI lumens and not emitter. 
Oversee's many Military and LEO stop using Surefire. The warranty over here is not the same as in the US, so that is no argument. 
Our lights (E2e and P6 where outdated and started to brake down) So we had to look around for a better product. 
Oh Yeah, about failing tailswitches, 20% of our E2e tailswitches stopped working in about 3 Years. (from 100 lights we bought)

We tested heavily during the last 2 Years and we found several Fenix and Sunwayman absolutely the best. 
The Surefires we had where 100% NOT better build then those Sunwaymans. 
Actually, it's the other way around. 
The (modified) Sunwayman we have now is by construction and innovation far ahead of any Surefire I know. 
Probably, imho, that's 1 of the problems with Surefire the last years, They didn't innovate as good as the rest did. 
All story's about all those China brands, are from years back. 
There are of coarse a lot of bad brands circling around on Ebay, 
But the brands like Sunwayman and Fenix can stand there own against anything Surefire makes, And they perform better for half the price


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## gothed (Oct 13, 2011)

Grizzlyb said:


> I must disagree,
> Modern lights like Fenix, Jetbeam, Sunwayman and 4Seven all shifted to measuring ANSI lumens and not emitter.
> Oversee's many Military and LEO stop using Surefire. The warranty over here is not the same as in the US, so that is no argument.
> Our lights (E2e and P6 where outdated and started to brake down) So we had to look around for a better product.
> ...



very interesting reply, I appreciate that you share real world experience.


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## tbenedict (Oct 13, 2011)

Also compare the specks between the emitters, on the AA based ones, the XPG is more efficient, but isn't as bright wide open. The xpg is still fairly floody compared to the older XPE neutral Quark I have.


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## LED_Thrift (Oct 13, 2011)

Grizzlyb said:


> .... We tested heavily during the last 2 Years and we found several Fenix and Sunwayman absolutely the best. ...


 Did you test any Peak lights?


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## 2100 (Oct 14, 2011)

Grizzlyb said:


> I must disagree,
> Modern lights like Fenix, Jetbeam, Sunwayman and 4Seven all shifted to measuring ANSI lumens and not emitter.
> Oversee's many Military and LEO stop using Surefire. The warranty over here is not the same as in the US, so that is no argument.
> Our lights (E2e and P6 where outdated and started to brake down) So we had to look around for a better product.
> ...



Appreciate the response, actually regarding Sunwayman I think that is really the company to watch. Just need a couple of more years.


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## kts (Oct 14, 2011)

Bobby_C said:


> _Edit_: I'll also say that I'm not very impressed with Fenix's quality. I had a E21 that the tailswitch failed in about 2 weeks of minimal use. I handled a couple of others that were ok though. I also have a E01 and a LD01 SS that seem ok but they're small lights and seem pretty tough.



I saw a poll regarding failures on tailcaps, Surefire had a lot more failures than other brands...

Yes, they will send you another for free, but that will not help you when you stand in the dark...


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## FPSRelic (Oct 14, 2011)

kts said:


> I saw a poll regarding failures on tailcaps, Surefire had a lot more failures than other brands...
> 
> Yes, they will send you another for free, but that will not help you when you stand in the dark...



Have you got a link to this poll?


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## 4sevens (Oct 14, 2011)

2100 said:


> Appreciate the response, actually regarding Sunwayman I think that is really the company to watch. Just need a couple of more years.


FYI, sunway/sunwayman was the result of the breakup of the nitecore partnership years go. The sunway "man" was the machine shop while the nitecore part was the sales guy who was once part of jetbeam who split off and joined the machinist. Then after a year or so he broke up went back to jetbeam. 

Remember those nitecores that would easily snap in half with light pressure using bare hands? Yeah, sunway was the machinist. By the way I still have tons of broken nitecore lights mechanically broken (aluminum) as well as fried circuits that have consistently come back from customers after months of normal use. My father who is and EE studied the circuitry and simply scratched his head - he just said the circuit shouldn't be working at all. Certain parts were being misused - 120% of what they were designed for. They were simply time bombs waiting to go off.

Honestly I'm glad I didn't choose the nitecore/sunway folks as an OEM supplier. After repeated visits I almost did but certain things tipped me off - little inconsistencies - what they promised and what they did just didn't match up. Finally the straw that broke the decision was when they started shipping products I sent back for repair without being repaired and I started involuntarily stockpiling an alarming pile of bad lights I was taking a loss on. The real problems were more than just mechanical or electrical - it's the unethical business practices and the greed over principle that is the real killer. I'm fortunate to not have enter into that partnership. It would have been a very messy marriage.

By the way the rotary interface that sunway and jetbeam have was the result of my visits and discussions with them. I brought them parts and development kits when I visited, discussing the engineering specifics in detail. Well recently mr sunwayman slying sent me an email congratulating me and thanking me for the design and even offered to send me one of their rotary lights. 

Sorry I'm rant-blogging on Friday again. Hope you guys enjoy some of this little-known flashlight lore 

-David


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## 2100 (Oct 14, 2011)

4sevens said:


> Sorry I'm rant-blogging on Friday again. Hope you guys enjoy some of this little-known flashlight lore
> 
> -David



Again, appreciate the response and thanks for the info.


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## gothed (Oct 15, 2011)

Well, it seems like picking a flashlight is a rather politically charged decision to make, what a bummer.


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## leon2245 (Oct 15, 2011)

4sevens said:


> FYI, sunway/sunwayman was the result of the breakup of the nitecore partnership years go. The sunway "man" was the machine shop while the nitecore part was the sales guy who was once part of jetbeam who split off and joined the machinist. Then after a year or so he broke up went back to jetbeam.
> 
> Remember those nitecores that would easily snap in half with light pressure using bare hands? Yeah, sunway was the machinist. By the way I still have tons of broken nitecore lights mechanically broken (aluminum) as well as fried circuits that have consistently come back from customers after months of normal use. My father who is and EE studied the circuitry and simply scratched his head - he just said the circuit shouldn't be working at all. Certain parts were being misused - 120% of what they were designed for. They were simply time bombs waiting to go off.
> 
> ...



It's good to know the background information, thanks for sharing. But I'm confused about "_congratulating me and thanking_ me for the design", because isn't that an admission, or IP doesn't work like that? It seems like you should get more than a free copy of your own design!


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## Grizzlyb (Oct 15, 2011)

LED_Thrift said:


> Did you test any Peak lights?


No, we only tested lights that in many ways met our requirements. 
1 x 18650, tail switch (no side switches), momentary, > 400 lm Ansi, strobe, tailstand etc. 

Fenix, Surefire and Sunwayman where the most tested. 
We had some other lights tested for other uses, like the Polarion, Streamlight,Innova and Maglite. Polarion won by a mile. 

It was a close race with Fenix and Sunwayman, but Fenix started on the T15 and T21 with the side switch, so was dropped out the test. (we had several communications with Fenix about it, and they would take it to there R&D, but they did not change it)

We already had a lot of bad experience with the failing tail switches on the Surefire's and besides that, they where way to expensive and far to low on Lumens. 
We had some requests for small changes(we don't want striking bezels and had some tips about strobe) that were ignored by Surefire and were very fast met by Sunwayman. Good company with an eye for the customers demands 
So, in the end it was an easy choice. 

We didn't test a 4Seven either, Maybe we should have :+).
The Quark 123² Turbo "X" looks prommissing, 
Send us one and I'll put it on the test. (as long as it fits in our holsters (32mm to 34mm heads) 
Probably the decision to buy (minimum 3000 pcs) will be made no sooner then early 2012

ps. 
Can You modify it to make it turn on in Strobe mode (SHTF mode), so that LEO's always have to change to other modes when there is time enough.


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## Xacto (Oct 17, 2011)

@Grizzlyb
which Sunwayman did enter service with you (I assume dutch police or military?)

Thanks
Cheers
Thorsten


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