# LED flashlight enthusiasm seems to be waning



## hiuintahs (Jul 20, 2017)

I remember the Streamlight guy at Shot Show in 2012 saying to me: "there sure are a lot of flashlight companies". That was in 2012. There are a whole lot more now!

I remember upgrading MagLites and you could buy a new 2AA Maglite for $9.00 at Walmart, a Terralux module for $15 and then a Seoul Semiconductor P4 for $10 (total of near $35) and it was all the craze. I did a custom color for each of my kids. Now the new lights would put something like that to shame and for less money too.

It seems that the first comers that provided decent lights and quality like Fenix, EagleTac, Sunwayman, Nitecore, Jetbeam, 4Sevens, others, etc.........have slowed down a bit. I'm going off of the # of new CPF threads these days on those models. There doesn't seem to be the enthusiasm. Many of the posters from years ago seem to have disappeared.

Now all I see are threads on very expensive lights and very inexpensive lights. That tells me that people are either really into custom and quality or they are interested in cheap........preferably something decent for cheap.........which seems to be the case lately. I just picked up my first Lumintop (the EDC25) for $20. I have to wait for the slow boat from China though. But worth the wait for the price. That's normally a $59 light. And a month ago I bought my first ATactical A1+ for $29.99. They also have an A1 model for $19.99. Those include rechargeable battery too. There are other models that must be pretty decent too like the Convoy which I have yet to try out.

Am I correct in saying that the whole price structure is sinking with these inexpensive contenders, and it seems to have taken market share away from the mid tier light companies based on the lack of discussion on the forum. It seems the LED craze isn't so special like it use to be in the early years. It's like a fad that has gone from something that was way cool in the beginning years to something that folks just consider as the norm today........so no need to discuss it? Perhaps this is simply the evolution of a new exciting technology that has simply matured. I see myself really winding down and unless something is on a way killer deal or some way new feature, I simply have my desires satiated for now.


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## Modernflame (Jul 20, 2017)

I couldn't say whether your post reflects the general mood, but it certainly resonates well with me. Cheap Chinese flashlights from the manufacturers you mentioned are just...boring. I'd rather save up for something higher quality and more expensive.


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## bykfixer (Jul 20, 2017)

Enthusiasm waning? 

Well for some, sure. 
Me? I missed the days when it was announced "LED's are capable of 75 lumens!!!" Then with thermal step down the lumen wars began... 100 for 8 minutes... 250 for 4 minutes...1200 for 22 seconds (yawn). Meanwhile many a heated debate has taken place about the ultimate tint. (Rolls eyes)... 
But for many, yeah things are pretty interesting. A new crowd has replaced the old crowd. So the thrill of it all has been passed onto a new group whose interest is different than the old crowd. Seems the old crowd was more into the science behind it all and there were propeller hat wearers all across the board. Lot's more do-it-yourself-ers back then. 

I'm kinda somewhere in the middle. Yeah I'm interested in all those new gadgets and ideas. Some from the factory and some achieved in my den/laboratory. Yet as a collector, with about a hundred years of flashlight innovations I probably won't get bored anytime soon. I geek out on how they got 'lectricity to a light bulb through a rubber tube with no wires, or the effeciency of a current circuit to achieve longer run times from available fuel sources. And stuff in between.

As newer technology allows brighter/cheaper stuff to be produced it takes some research to find the gems in a stream load of pyrite. Yet that is half the fun... at least to me anyway. CNC, 3D PDF, and spy cams help create brighter, cheaper stuff to appeal to the masses in big quantities anymore. And if there wasn't a market they'd disappear. But like with any hobby apethy sets in at some point.

I remember telling a friend/cpf'r after about a year "man I'm bored with LED lights". Soon after I set my sites on classic technology and haven't been bored since.

Like rock n roll music, a good mix of the classics with a pinch of new, a dash of recent and a splash of upcoming makes for a nice long interesting entertaining way to pass the time.


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## Lou Minescence (Jul 20, 2017)

There has been a paradigm shift about led flashlights here on CPF. Better in some ways and not so good in others. 
Most of the weekly Surefire locked thread wars are over. They were funny but not constructive. To me it seems that about the time Nitecore exploded into a large led light manufacturer is when there was a big change. My attention to CPF started about 2008 and Im sure there were other enthusiasm changes from the early years. Its all about change.


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## richbuff (Jul 21, 2017)

> ....Now all I see are threads on very expensive lights and very inexpensive lights. That tells me that people are either really into custom and quality or they are interested in cheap........
> 
> ....sinking with these inexpensive contenders, and it seems to have taken market share away from the mid tier light companies based on the lack of discussion on the forum. ... ...



I do not agree that items in a lower price tier take away market share from higher price tiers. 

People spend the money on a flashlight that they want to spend on a flashlight. 
Some people really like spending $5.00 on a flashlight, some people really like spending $50.00, others $500.00, others $5,000.00. The existence of a lower tier does not detract from enthusiasm from people who really like to spend higher tier bucks. 

When a new exciting item comes out, there are lots of exuberant posts made in several forums, then people post less about that item as they go about enjoying the new item.


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## parnass (Jul 22, 2017)

You didn't see many LED flashlights in local stores when I joined CPF in 2005. Most non-CPFers were still using incandescents. 

LED lights were rare and held an allure, especially for gadget and technology fans.

LED flashlights are now inexpensive and commonplace -- everywhere from big box stores to small hardware stores and gas stations. They are no longer a "big deal."


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## TMedina (Jul 25, 2017)

The novelty of LED technology is waning - you can buy LED flashlights at the local dollar store. Recently, I bought a $4 Rayovac flashlight at a local hardware store and I was pleasantly surprised by the overall quality compared to what I remember.

That said, I think the competition is stiffer, forcing companies to play to their core strengths - and flashlight enthusiasts will follow accordingly. If you're a Surefire or Malkoff fan-person, odds are you won't be all that excited by the latest brand offering semi-exotic battery choices and a multitude of settings. And likewise, if you're enamored of what that newcomer on the block has to offer, you probably won't see the fuss, or the reason for the price tag, on a Surefire or Malkoff.

In some respects, established companies can play to their brands and not worry as much about innovative products as long as they don't stagnate, whereas newcomers have bigger hurdle: they need to produce a quality product, at a price point that will sell, and both establish and market a brand to their customer base.


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## rayman (Jul 27, 2017)

I could agree slightly with the threadstarters opinion. I joined CPF in 2008 when i bought my first LED flashlight and was hyped about what this small light could achieve compared to all the incandescent flashlights I had before.

In my opinion the led technology/industry did big steps back then but lately I have the impression the steps are getting smaller but there are still improvements. None the less I think there are still flashlights in every price segement available for every taste.

Oh I still remember when I build my first SSC P7 flashlight and the P7 was the most common high-power LED in flashlights ;-).


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## harro (Jul 27, 2017)

Development and technology has certainly plateaued to a certain extent. I am still happy to buy one or two new lights a year, not a month. BYKFixer has found a niche that appeals to him. Others, jaded by the whole thing, have drifted away. Thats how it is. Personally, i dont mind the longer wait for a light that provides that ' WOW ' factor, and in the meantime, there are some really nice alternatives out there to hold the interest. Damascus, custom, modding to name but a few.


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## bykfixer (Jul 27, 2017)

harro said:


> Development and technology has certainly plateaued to a certain extent. I am still happy to buy one or two new lights a year, not a month. BYKFixer has found a niche that appeals to him. Others, jaded by the whole thing, have drifted away. Thats how it is. Personally, i dont mind the longer wait for a light that provides that ' WOW ' factor, and in the meantime, there are some really nice alternatives out there to hold the interest. Damascus, custom, modding to name but a few.



It sounds like you and I are similar but in different approaches. You patiently bide your time albeit probably passing the time at other avenues like all of us hobbyists while keeping a finger on the pulse of the current state of things. 
I do too. But as a time travelling collector it's fascinating to see all of the what's old is new again things developing in a modernistic approach. At least to me it is and then the newest developments often times don't seem quite as trivial.


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## Fireclaw18 (Jul 27, 2017)

Lou Minescence said:


> There has been a paradigm shift about led flashlights here on CPF. Better in some ways and not so good in others.
> Most of the weekly Surefire locked thread wars are over. They were funny but not constructive. To me it seems that about the time Nitecore exploded into a large led light manufacturer is when there was a big change. My attention to CPF started about 2008 and Im sure there were other enthusiasm changes from the early years. Its all about change.


This.

I've noticed that compared to 5 years ago, CPF seems less active that it was before. It feels like there are fewer new threads and people make new posts less often. BLF now seems much more active than CPF in terms of numbers of new posts and new threads per hour. I don't think that was the case 5 years ago.

I don't think excitement and enthusiasm for LED flashlights is waning overall, but it may be waning here on CPF. Or perhaps it is the nature of the audience. CPF caters more to the high-end market. High-end products tend to come out less frequently than the more budget-oriented lights at BLF. Also BLF generates a lot of enthusiasm from its active modding community and community designed flashlight projects and group buys. 

I enjoy both BLF and CPF. Both sites are valuable and are great resources to the community.


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## seery (Jul 27, 2017)

parnass said:


> You didn't see many LED flashlights in local stores when I joined CPF in 2005. Most non-CPFers were still using incandescents.
> 
> LED lights were rare and held an allure...
> 
> LED flashlights are now inexpensive and commonplace...They are no longer a "big deal."



Very true!


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## Lynx_Arc (Jul 27, 2017)

I'm still enthusiastic about LEDs...... but not as much in flashlights but area lights and lanterns using SMD or COB LEDs and various sizes and battery types. I've also got into USB power banks and USB LED lighting solutions which has been more fun hooking up switches and cables and lights to light up the area around me.


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## harro (Jul 28, 2017)

bykfixer said:


> It sounds like you and I are similar but in different approaches. You patiently bide your time albeit probably passing the time at other avenues like all of us hobbyists while keeping a finger on the pulse of the current state of things.
> I do too. But as a time travelling collector it's fascinating to see all of the what's old is new again things developing in a modernistic approach. At least to me it is and then the newest developments often times don't seem quite as trivial.



10/10 :thumbsup:


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## leon2245 (Jul 30, 2017)

hiuintahs said:


> Now all I see are threads on very expensive lights and very inexpensive lights.



Thread activity mirrors my experience, no middle ground for me. Either I'm tempted by some exotic metal beauty for no good reason, otherwise cheap flashlights have gotten too good lately for me to justify for instance middle ground SF's for workman's lights anymore, which used to be my favorite. JUst comparing improvement of quality over the last decade plus of what I could get for $20 from one brand in particular, L1P seems like it was made by a different company than E12 now. And I can make feature concessions when I spend <$20 on something, but when I get tempted by one of these jewelry boutique lights for 5x or 10x the price, they have to be perfect- and they never are, per my feature checklist.




hiuintahs said:


> It seems that the first comers that provided decent lights and quality like Fenix, EagleTac, Sunwayman, Nitecore, Jetbeam, 4Sevens, others, etc.........have slowed down a bit. I'm going off of the # of new CPF threads these days on those models. There doesn't seem to be the enthusiasm. Many of the posters from years ago seem to have disappeared.



Yeah that's true. I think you still get the rabid brand honks, they've just a) shifted to different brands with b) non overlapping tiers moreso now, because c) this forum's done a good job of keeping everyone relegated to their own spaces... dedicated circle-threads for certain cult brands, and all the really cheap stuff in its own subforum, where no one cares enough to hate or honk anything in particular, then with such quality reviewers here, you get definitive/comprehensive 20p threads dedicated to seemingly every model, covering all issues/updates etc. over the course of years. And historical and collectors' threads are still booming. NTm all the niche/accessory subforums.

So I still see the enthusiasm in general, not waning. No longer enthusiasm for me, just because everything's too good for so cheap now, hard to get excited about that, but I can't lie, whenever I check back in here and see the latest glamour shots of manufacturer-on-a-forum's latest projects, I do want them bad... I'm only human.


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## h_nu (Jul 30, 2017)

Lynx_Arc could have been reading my mind as his statement exactly matches my thoughts.

I used to spend way too much on flashlights and did it for several years. I stopped hanging out here in an attempt to discipline my spending habits. I have flashlights powered by almost any cell I can find. I am even Ok with my brother having brighter and cooler flashlights than mine. Gasp!

I replaced the instrument bulbs in my antique auto with warm white LEDs that look period correct but are brighter. I replaced the amber and red marker and brake lights with colored Cree LEDs. I'll wait until I can get headlights with the right color (approximating the older halogen even though it was sealed beam in the early 60s).

I am not actively looking for something new but I am still interested. I am now happy with a few hundred lumens and look to high efficiency and interesting designs.


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## Str8stroke (Jul 30, 2017)

I wonder if Led Flashlight enthusiasm is waning or if it is just more segmented. I guess with the general public, it is doing pretty darn well. So well in fact we (or some of us) may end up being the only Incandescent hold outs soon. I also think that maybe, just maybe we have now finally all found a light or lights that fill all our needs and desires?? That is until we have a AAA size light that puts out 10,000 lumens with fully adjustable tint for 24 hours on a single cell.


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## CarpentryHero (Jul 31, 2017)

I don't know about others but for me my early years in CPF, their were what felt like huge jumps in almost every department; brightness, ui, tint, throw, beam patterns and form factors.

i took a break from buying do too a divorce, thinking I'll buy another light when they are capable of 7000 lumens for under $200. I told that every time I thought about buying a new light, to talk myself out of a light. In the last year theirs lights that have hit the market with more than double what I thought plausible. 

Flashlights reach a new peek every year but it takes a 30% increase to visibly notice it to the eye without a side by side. So for me it's not that my interest has wained but after a few thousand per year I've learned what I want and what I can use.


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## idleprocess (Jul 31, 2017)

My journey with CPF started as a professional interest 2003-2004. I was working for a manufacturer backlighting a static graphics display with failure-prone florescent lights whose heat would literally melt the solder off of other electronics in the same housing. I happened across CPF researching the then kind-of-new concept of LED backlighting. Never did implement a LED backlight for that product and left the company in late 2004, but CPF has remained. 

The early days were indeed exciting as the original power LED - the Lumileds Luxeon - had been released to the world at multiple *tens* of dollars a pop. Previously, LED flashlights had required showerhead arrangements with their 3mm and 5mm LEDs to spit out the ~30 lumens that the Luxeon managed. Early on, you had to DIY it, haggle with a modder, or (usually) pre-order something from one of the small outfits that was messing with these exotic beasts. The pinnacle of those days for me was the Cree XR-E, which reliably put out >100 lumens on a single die without the kind of borderline-dangerous currents that Luxeons required. I still have - and marvel - at one of the short-run Alephs I bought from the 'Shoppe that's ~140 lumens on a single 123A - it's been outclassed for many years but still seems like a lot of light for something so small.

Insofar as the lack of enthusiasm, the technology adoption lifecycle is at work here, more concisely explained by the adoption curve. I started somewhere between the _Innnovator_ and _Early-Adopters_ phase when the technology was new and it took some effort to use it. Community knowledge was the way to go then - it was difficult-at-best to learn this stuff via more conventional sources. 

I'd guesstimate that sometime in the vicinity of 2007 the early majority phase was underway. That's when you started seeing LED flashlights eating into the market share of more staid, established players. Companies like Ray-O-Vac adapted to the onslaught by releasing LED flashlights. Other companies like Maglite had to lose a lot of shelf space before being forced into innovation. Trailing this trend by about 2 years was LED lighting for general illumination (read: light bulbs). The not-so-loved CFL started migrating to the discount section of any lighting section while LED bulbs started taking over the more prime shelf space.

Seems like about 5 years ago that we entered the late majority phase. Incandescent flashlights are legitimately hard to find outside of specialty retailers and closeout shelves. I can't recall the last time I saw an incandescent mag-lite. Even the local Bass Pro Shops seems to no longer stock high-margin incandescent flashlights like the Surefire G2 / 6P.

So ... the lost off excitement seems to come with the _commodotization_ of the technology. When you can buy it off of store shelves from every corner store, it's difficult to be as excited about the pedestrian reality of it as opposed to when it was an exotic possibility to anticipate and maybe - just maybe - experience in person someday.

Coincident with the adoption curve, the evolution of the technology seems to have reached an inflection point several years ago. First it was efficiency parity with inandescents at ~30 lumens per watt. Then it was a series of performance benchmarks - 50, 75, 100, 150, 200 lumens per watt in the lab ... all of which took some time to make it to production parts. Then it was more real-world performance benchmarks (85C binning as opposed to the laughable 35C). Then it was thermal ruggedness. But now that many of these achievements have been made in the lab and - mostly - made it to production pieces the pace of change has slowed. Theoretical maximum efficiency of any electrical lighting source is something like 300 lumens per watt; I suspect that pinnacle will never be reached outside of the lab and 250 lumens/watt _wall-plug efficiency_ is apt to be the unicorn the industry gets close to but never realizes. More important will likely be thermal ruggedness and consistent output over a wide temperature range. And cost - always cost - since LED is still a tad more expensive than its forerunners.


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## LeanBurn (Jul 31, 2017)

Like most hobbies (for me anyway) once I have the best (EDC, hand held, headlamp, thrower, modded LED for highest CRI possible and vintage incan) for my money, I coast and enjoy them. There is nothing wrong with moderation, but I am not a die hard collector either.


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## StarHalo (Jul 31, 2017)

It was more fun when they were in cereal boxes..


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## ssanasisredna (Jul 31, 2017)

It is like desktops/personal computers and we are even getting close on phones. We are at the "good enough" point for the vast majority of applications. We don't need brighter, the run times are good enough, the light quality is good .... and all can be accomplished mass production inexpensively. The magic is gone.


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## idleprocess (Jul 31, 2017)

ssanasisredna said:


> It is like desktops/personal computers and we are even getting close on phones. We are at the "good enough" point for the vast majority of applications. We don't need brighter, the run times are good enough, the light quality is good .... and all can be accomplished mass production inexpensively. The magic is gone.



Yup. It's largely down to learning effects in production and other efficiency-wringing techniques. The advances from the lab will decline and off-the-shelf integration methods are now widely-available for almost everyone. 'Tis the nature of commercialization of almost anything mass-produced.


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## recDNA (Jul 31, 2017)

I miss the days when 4sevens were all the rage and it seemed they would build whatever we wanted. Neutral? Sure! Latest led? Of course. Titanium for $89? Why not! Super bright keychain light? We'll give you one cheap! Those were the days.


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## bykfixer (Jul 31, 2017)

All my older friends, family and coworkers say "there's no more good music" as they tap their toes to a tune they've never heard before by a band they've never heard of coming from my speakers.

Same goes for flashlights. It is not unusual to hear "holy crap, what brand is that?" when I pull out one of my EDC's. Like I said before, the gems are still out there, ya just gotta look a little harder and go to different places to find them. 

Recently I was asked to be a paid reviewer with payment for photos as well as comments. I declined. Not going to join the fray and pretend that mediocre is great, nor bring a few great ones into the limelight with a buy it now at amazon button. I was also asked to showcase a few mediocre performing, so-called tacticool numbers at my store. Again I declined. 

My enthusiasm has waned some... but that just means I'm less likely to purchase pyrite instead of gold.


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## mbw_151 (Aug 1, 2017)

I got really interested in flashlights and LEDs in 2000, 3 x 5mm MiniMag conversions were the state of the art. Change happened fast, outputs went up, runtime went up, color improved, Lion cells became the power of choice and UI's became diverse (some improved). These all continue to change but more slowly now. I've found things that meet my needs very well and can't justify tiny increments of "improvement" at great cost. So what if my HDS only does 120 lumens? I've programmed it to fit my needs, a cell lasts months and I love the tint. Other lights have been improved, but I don't feel the improvements are worth the cost, Minimus Vision to Minimus MV for example. I keep looking, but the buying has slowed.


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## KG_Tuning (Aug 3, 2017)

Last year the sudden lumen race and features such as built in UV, bluetooth, usb input/output etc etc has got me hooked!! For me personally flashlights for the first time ever are fascinating.

What's next!!!!


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## Lynx_Arc (Aug 3, 2017)

mbw_151 said:


> I got really interested in flashlights and LEDs in 2000, 3 x 5mm MiniMag conversions were the state of the art. Change happened fast, outputs went up, runtime went up, color improved, Lion cells became the power of choice and UI's became diverse (some improved). These all continue to change but more slowly now. I've found things that meet my needs very well and can't justify tiny increments of "improvement" at great cost. So what if my HDS only does 120 lumens? I've programmed it to fit my needs, a cell lasts months and I love the tint. Other lights have been improved, but I don't feel the improvements are worth the cost, Minimus Vision to Minimus MV for example. I keep looking, but the buying has slowed.


I agree in that 120 lumens is enough for a lot of uses these days and decent emitters can do 500 lumens are available with LEDs getting more efficient and higher output beyond what is normally needed. I think without a breakthrough in battery technology we have the problem of not enough power to adequately harness the LEDs available.


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## orbital (Aug 3, 2017)

+

I remember the _near hysteria_ over this light 10 years ago, cult item now I guess:bow:


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## wjv (Aug 3, 2017)

parnass said:


> You didn't see many LED flashlights in local stores when I joined CPF in 2005. Most non-CPFers were still using incandescents.
> 
> LED lights were rare and held an allure, especially for gadget and technology fans.



And the people who buy the 20,000 lumen AtomicFire SuperBeam (with technology used by the special forces) flashlight for $19.95, think that their light is way superior to your wimpy Fenix/Olight/Nitecore that ONLY puts out 2,000 lumens. . . .

With no regard to:
- tint
- run time
- beam quality
- durability
- reliability
- no PMW
- other features


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## idleprocess (Aug 3, 2017)

wjv said:


> And the people who buy the 20,000 lumen AtomicFire SuperBeam (with technology used by the special forces) flashlight for $19.95, think that their light is way superior to your wimpy Fenix/Olight/Nitecore that ONLY puts out 2,000 lumens. . . .
> 
> With no regard to:
> * - reality*


FTFY

Simplistically, smash the efficiency limits of best-of-class LEDs against the power-delivery limits of AAA alkaline cells and you arrive at best-possible lumens:

Assuming you get fresh-from-the-lab bleeding-edge LEDs, you might realize 200 lm/W. It might help to supercool them and run them for brief periods of time - no more than a few milliseconds - to realize this level of performance.
Alkaline AAA cells are apt to perhaps deliver 700mA @ 1.25 nominal volts = 875mW per call or 2.625W for the usual 3x AAA arrangement. This is of course a peak value, with sustained delivery of perhaps half that current and likely at < 1.25V. NiMH or Lithium AAAs might be a better choice - you're going to need all the wheaties you can get - NiMH won't sag the voltage so bad and will deliver more current; Lithium will have a higher nominal voltage and perhaps deliver more current yet.
If we deliver 100% of the optimal AAA pack energy to the LED(s) - which experience no thermal sag whatsoever and realize their advertised performance - and there is zero optical loss the miraculous Quantum Atomic Ultra Iron Oxide Plus Beam™ will deliver 525 lumens. Briefly.
A somewhat more exotic arrangement that uses the AAAs to charge a supercap could perhaps realize a larger percentage of the nebulous advertised lumens for seconds at a time ... with minutes of downtime. But at our *As Seen on TV*™ pricing being _perhaps_ $19.95 and marketing costs being easily more than 75% of their cost structure, I have difficulty envisioning room in the budget for such engineering miracles when the principal avenue of innovation seems to be their knack for promotion.

20,000 / 525 (we'll re-rate to 500 for simplicity's sake) is a whopping factor-40 spread. I'm not sure that the eBay Lumen Inflation Factor has reached that level just yet despite the miraculous capabilities of the much-beloved CREE XML-T6.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Aug 4, 2017)

bykfixer said:


> My enthusiasm has waned some... but that just means I'm less likely to purchase pyrite instead of gold.



Bingo!

I seldom purchase new lights. When I do, a lot of time and thought goes into asking the modder to get it/them "just right."

I joined this forum a decade ago after lurking for some time before that, and still lurk much more often than post. 

I still enjoy my lights. I still have hosts waiting for future projects. 

But I recently liquidated over $600.00 worth of lights, including some customs that were very pricey and took a long time to plan/build/acquire, because I just didn't need them, and _did_ need the physical and mental space they were taking up. 

Tangibles have a penalty in our mind, and while I may never reach true minimalism, it is something I can always aspire towards and admire, even if from afar.


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## bykfixer (Aug 4, 2017)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> Bingo!
> 
> I seldom purchase new lights. When I do, a lot of time and thought goes into asking the modder to get it/them "just right."
> 
> Tangibles have a penalty in our mind, and while I may never reach true minimalism, it is something I can always aspire towards and admire, even if from afar.



Wanna really achieve minimalism? Really really true minimalism?... 
Marry a high priced divorce lawyers secretary then let her catch you fooling around on her.....,
Works every time. 

Just added two more lights to the collection that'll live on the mantel in my den.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 5, 2017)

The solution to waning interest is to use the gear.


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## Vesper (Aug 5, 2017)

It has waned for me as led lighting has become the norm, and 2 packs of "900 lumen" lights line the isles of Costco. I still keep an eye out for the ideal light for me but the thrill has somewhat moved on.


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## terjee (Aug 5, 2017)

The high quality, high performance LED lights were really disruptive, revolutionary more than evolutionary. They filled a gap that really needed filling, and a lot of people needed or "needed" several lights. Getting the right model took some work, there wasn't an abundance of good enough lights, and when the revolution started, not all good lights were good enough. The work required to find one of those good enough lights generated forum traffic, etc. 

Now though, those seriously interested - flashaholics or not - already have several lights. The need to do research has gone down, and the time for the masses to go from none to several lights has been spent.

Key point is that interest isn't really waning as such, it's more a matter stabilizing, as the initial revolution has peaked, and it's more evolutionary at this point. I don't think many that were seriously interested has lost interest, they've just gotten to the point that they've gone from none to several lights that are good enough.

Take me for example. I had zero good enough lights. I needed headlamp, EDC, thrower, balanced, and immediate family is 3 people, all of which needed most of those. That's a lot of light. Then there's the larger family, a lot of whom needed gifts. 

When I started, I needed to build up an inventory of perhaps 10-15 lights in total. Now that's done, so offcourse the need for me to trawl for those lights has gone down. There interest is there as much as when I started, there's just less work to be done. Now it's more a matter of doing the occasional upgrade, replacing failed or gifted lights, and trying to be useful to others. But those "others" are often in the same situation as me, having some lights already.

So interest isn't really waning, activity has just stabilized. There's less need to get good lights (already having some), and easier to get "good enough" lights.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Aug 5, 2017)

@terjee, I like your answer a lot! 

I agree with it 100%.


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## reppans (Aug 5, 2017)

Still love flashlights but lost interest in new lights. Only 'new' lights I've bought in the past year or so were clearance sales of my already existing favorites, as gifts and back-ups, around two dozen. 

I'm an ultralight camper, minimalist, and survivalist and am into a very specific set of low lumens (to maintain night vision) with exceptional runtime, battery efficiency, and versatility. Seems to be a rather rare niche among most flashlight enthusiasts. 

I'm quite flexible on budget (for function over form), but the last dozen or so new quality light purchases have been disappointing - mostly electronic clicky issues and low lows spec exaggeration by multiples. So the continuing trend toward electronic clickies and higher outputs (which tends to sacrifice low mode spacing) does not bid well for my interests. Fair enough - manufacturers need to cater to the greater market, and I've got my flashlight stash for many years to come.


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## eh4 (Aug 9, 2017)

Something similar happened a long time ago with light sabers, once they were perfected in practical terms.


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## scs (Aug 9, 2017)

Meanwhile my frustration with new lights, which in my opinion are not better than their recent predecessors, is growing.


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## harro (Aug 10, 2017)

scs said:


> Meanwhile my frustration with new lights, which in my opinion are not better than their recent predecessors, is growing.



This sentence says it all. ' RECENT PREDECESSORS '. With the way cutting edge tech is at the moment, that WOW light may only come along once or twice a year. We seem to be heading into the twilight phase of development for the current crop of available LED's. You know the thing, stick in multiple leds and hope the consumer doesn't notice too much that its power and output is coming from that, rather than one LED that's driven to its pretty much maximum capability.

Eventually, things will turn around as usual, and we will all be in awe yet again.


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## Minimoog (Aug 10, 2017)

We seem to be stuck in 2015/6 with flashlight tech - which is understandable. I have not bought a new LED light for 6 months now as I'm not seeing anything that is tempting the cash from my wallet. I have an HDS High CRI rotary and to me that is 'advanced yet simple' and the mix of basic switch and high precision brightness control is just what I want more of, not pressing for mode groups, press and hold, double tap etc. The SureFire U2 was another one, completely tactile, lovely to use, reliable.


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## scs (Aug 10, 2017)

harro said:


> This sentence says it all. ' RECENT PREDECESSORS '. With the way cutting edge tech is at the moment, that WOW light may only come along once or twice a year. We seem to be heading into the twilight phase of development for the current crop of available LED's. You know the thing, stick in multiple leds and hope the consumer doesn't notice too much that its power and output is coming from that, rather than one LED that's driven to its pretty much maximum capability.
> 
> Eventually, things will turn around as usual, and we will all be in awe yet again.



I understand the slowdown in incremental progress of LED tech. However, it's the apparent lack of initiative to improve driver efficiency as displayed by the offerings of Fenix, Nitecore, et al that is frustrating. If one wants efficient driver performance, ZL is pretty much his only option, which is a very limited option at that.

To me, progress means an increase in lumens AND throw with the same or preferably improved runtime, along with improvements in construction that make lights more durable, rugged, and waterproof, and improvements to the design of clips, tactical rings, switches, and UI, while keeping design elements that already work well, say mode spacing, the same.

I'm just not seeing much of that.


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## harro (Aug 10, 2017)

scs said:


> I understand the slowdown in incremental progress of LED tech. However, it's the apparent lack of initiative to improve driver efficiency as displayed by the offerings of Fenix, Nitecore, et al that is frustrating. If one wants efficient driver performance, ZL is pretty much his only option, which is a very limited option at that.
> 
> To me, progress means an increase in lumens AND throw with the same or preferably improved runtime, along with improvements in construction that make lights more durable, rugged, and waterproof, and improvements to the design of clips, tactical rings, switches, and UI, while keeping design elements that already work well, say mode spacing, the same.
> 
> I'm just not seeing much of that.



Fair enough. Maybe manufacturers are trying to string us out a bit, and that can certainly be frustrating. It'd certainly be nice to see those desirable features incorporated into a few more 'mainstream' brands.


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## eh4 (Aug 10, 2017)

Seeing as how we need something like a 3x-4x increase in brightness to see it as being meaningfully brighter, we're asking a lot from the tech. 
What I would like to see is a meaningful refinement of the tech, bringing in improvements but recovering from the breakneck advances to make stable and durable designs of great reliability. Easily moddable, maybe even surviving from aftermarket licences. 
Design patents will outlive rapid tech advancements.


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## idleprocess (Aug 12, 2017)

Minimoog said:


> We seem to be stuck in 2015/6 with flashlight tech - which is understandable.



Not sure I find it so understandable - the market seem to be very nearly standing still:

*Model year updates* - Fenix has been at this for a while now; such is the mind-bending pace of change that they need to let you know about the 2017 PD35 _(+5% lumens might be the *big* new feature!)_
*USB charging* - A not-so-new new feature. Casual users probably love it, but it's pretty meh for removable-cell lights since most of us likely have NiMH/Li-Ion chargers already.
*No tint selection* - Feels like it's 2009 with 5000K-6000K _still_ being the dominant tint outside of a few exceptions
*Mode Shuffle* - Add more modes, alter the spacing, or add in some mode _groups_ accessible via some method totally different from every other manufacturer for that Added Differentiation™

I feel like the 1x18650 form factor has been stuck at for years now. With the prevalence of IMR cells that can spit out >5C _(such as the Samsung 25R capable of 20A or *72W*) and high-cap cells capable of decent rates (such as the Panasonic 18650 GA capable of 10A or 36W)_, it seems like we should be seeing XHP50/70-class lights that can run at or near full current. Instead, it's pop can lights if you want that kind if output. I can _sort of_ appreciate the 2x123A roots of the standard, but suspect that the market has moved towards the better energy density - and lower cost - of using rechargeable cells at this point. I'll concede that manufacturers may not be willing to push single cells that hard when there is the potential for consumer confusion using lower-rate bare cells that could overheat if pushed too hard.


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## Cerealand (Aug 12, 2017)

120 lumens 3700k HDS clicky is still ticking. Felt no need to keep purchasing the latest and greatest. My malkoff drop-ins and HDS lights have served me well.


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## Slumber (Aug 13, 2017)

^^Beautiful light Cerealand!^^

I mostly enjoy tech from a few years ago, including a variety of HDS lights (the brightest of which is 325 lumens), three low/high Surefires and an MD2 HOT. I also have a beater Zebra SC62d (300 lumens max) and that's it! My brightest light is my Fury at 650 lumens. 
A few years ago I owned some bigger, brighter lights, but they NEVER got any use. I understand everyone has different needs, but mine were met about seven years ago.


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## bhvm (Aug 13, 2017)

Waning interest, for the mass market- Yes.
There are a few reasons I could see why this is happening- (why people stopped buying flashlights)
1. All cellphones now have a torch and all seem to be having cellphones
2. Proliferation of solar/ Alternative energy so we are seldom left in the dark (Atleast in the city)
3. Crappy chinese products that people burned fingers with.
4. Overconfident "Branded" light companies that have 500% profit Margins and are simply not VFM.
5. you brought an genuine LED and it still works. So you don't need a new one.

Well for me I would say. 10 years ago I shifted to build myself whatever lights I need, rather than buy anything.

Waning Interest, For the true Enthusiast- Never!


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## wjv (Sep 1, 2017)

scs said:


> Meanwhile my frustration with new lights, which in my opinion are not better than their recent predecessors, is growing.



Yup.

Lots of manufacturers seem to think that increasing lumens is the sole "improvement" for flashlights.

I don't care if the lumens went from 900 to 1,200 when it causes the run time to drop by 30 minutes.

I don't care if I can buy a 8,000 lumen light, that will maintain that brightness for only 180 seconds.

I don't care what the Turbo setting produces when the mode spacing, or the UI or the Tint sucks. 

Or when the low mode was 3 lumens, and is now 10 lumens.


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## bykfixer (Sep 2, 2017)

bhvm said:


> Waning Interest, For the true Enthusiast- Never!



^^ This!!


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## Zak (Sep 3, 2017)

My enthusiasm for LED flashlights definitely isn't waning, but I'm not very interested in the biggest mainstream trend in the industry: chasing lumen numbers. The latest and greatest 25,000 lumen light from Acebeam has a sustained output similar to that of the Noctigon Meteor that's been out for years and has better tint and color rendering (with the Nichia 219Cs, anyway). Even on max, it only looks about twice as bright because human perception of brightness is roughly logarithmic (with a base between 2 and 3).

Lumens are boring. Going from 60 to 600 was fun, but I imagine it'll be a while before we have 6000 sustainable without overheating in a pocketable form factor.

Color quality isn't boring though, and the variety of tints available in high-CRI from Nichia is very exciting. Virence.com (clemence on BLF) has quite a few of them available in individual quantities.


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## pageyjim (Sep 3, 2017)

I think it is normal for interest to go up and down. Personally I seem to go from current new flashlights to vintage flashlights to knives to vintage knives and back to the beginning. I see less and less people using "normal" consumer flashlights like Coast brand and more people with Fenix and Nitecore etc than ever before. It used to be nobody ever knew what I was talking about with 18650 lights not so now.


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## idleprocess (Sep 3, 2017)

Zak said:


> Lumens are boring. Going from 60 to 600 was fun, but I imagine it'll be a while before we have 6000 sustainable without overheating in a pocketable form factor.



At an _optimistic_ 200 lumens per watt net OTF from the LEDs, that's 30 watts without driver overhead. Even if the flashlight itself can manage that kind of power dissipation, odds are the human holding it will find it uncomfortable quite quickly.


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## martinaee (Sep 3, 2017)

I don't think enthusiasm is waning completely, but I think saturation and complete general public acceptance of high-end LED technology is pretty much complete.

In 2008 I bought an LD20 Q5 which was one of my favorite lights ever (still is, but I lost it). You couldn't just go to a general store and get a light even close to that. Now in 2017 you can go to any Walmart or Home Depot and get lights that have emitters that are much better. Sure the tech and machining might not be quite as nice, but overall high output LED technology is commonplace now. CREE emitters are everywhere.

For nuts like us on CPF sure we're still into it, but most of us have lights ranging from 3 lumens to at least several thousand. I definitely want new awesome lights, but I haven't bought anything new in a long time simply because I have to budget for the really nice ones I want and also I am super picky now when it comes to getting a new light. It's no longer what is just the brightest light available, but so many other aspects of the light itself and its potential use for me are taken into consideration.


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## mickb (Sep 22, 2017)

I think like most things the extreme hobbyists were usually made of users in the beginning. That is most people chasing a high lumen flashlight in the day, or even cared flashlights had lumens high or otherwise were security, police, search and rescue, hunters etc. Certainly 10 years+ ago these seemed to be the first folk I heard about LED's from. Soon after developed general enthusiasts, just after one of these cool superbright objects. And I think where the fervour has dropped is the practical limits for the first group were arrived at a few years ago, and its just the second group powering the market now. 

I found the same thing with hunting actually before the internet started in the late 90's those of us into big game rifles( elephant guns specifically, the most powerful shoulder guns) were hunters who spent a lot of time and money meeting folk, going to gunshows, going on hunts to develope networks for our hobby, and gradually pushing the envelopes. After the internet it was all at the push of a button and within 10 years the average guy was using his credit card to buy insanely powerful 'franken-guns' just to say he had one. a few years later everyone cooled their heels to a degree.


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## eh4 (Sep 29, 2017)

Emisar D1 and D4 just reignited the fire for me.


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## Lumen83 (Sep 30, 2017)

My interest in the new stuff is sort of waning. Its partly because I used to jump at every light that came out with more lumens and more run time. Now I am finding that there is a sort of sweet spot for my use needs where I don't need more lumens. 3-400 is plenty for anything I will need at the high end. What is more important to me is finding lights that also have a range of features like multiple brightness levels and warm tint with good beam pattern. I'm finding that most lights with those characteristics have already come out. And, I'm more interested in upgrading their LEDs (surefire U2) for instance, than spending money on a new light with 2000 lumens without the other characteristics that I want and that I already have in front of me.


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## GarageBoy (Oct 5, 2017)

I remember when the defender infinity changed everything - all that light from a single aa (mine died, warranty replacement got sold) 
Previously I was buying sandwiches from the shoppe

Now, a trip to Walmart gets me a minimag that puts out triple digit lumens

I do miss when custom lights were about bleeding edge electronics and not about making a light out of copper or Damascus that costs $500


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## Warmcopper123 (Oct 5, 2017)

Interest has definitely waned for me. just not getting excited about the endless black flashlights from china . surefire doesn't do it for me anymore as I dislike the new designs . You know what I miss the most? no one does OD HAIII anodizing anymore!!! 

after all the lights I have owned and it goes way back to the Arc and Longbow and Sandwich Shoppe Aleph days, I have come full circle back to the lowly Fenix E01 aaa. I carry it every day and use it all the time . horrible tint and about 12 lumens but it gets the job done because its on me 24/7. I sold everything I had because I wasn't using any of it. I miss some of them and wish I hadn't sold a few but they just sat in a drawer unless I played with them in front of the TV. But I miss the old days its just not the same without Milkyspit and Arc and McGizmo with the PD system. 

Remember the Nitecore piston series? that was fun!! then someone made custom Ti bezel rings for it!! that was awesome!! and when that black single cell light with the turbo head and the amazing Cree led hit the scene and everyone went nuts for it. cant remember the name of that light. Geez I sound like an old fart reminiscing 

Now I am only into lights that I use and the two styles other than the E01 I use a lot are a headlamp and nightlights which I turn on every night throughout the house. all led of course.
want to get a nice aa headlamp but don't have the funds right now so I continue to use my cheap Homedepot headlamp that I got on clearance using 3aaa and no regulation


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## eh4 (Oct 5, 2017)

GarageBoy, 
the Emisar D1, D4, and soon to exist D1S are about recently bleeding edge tech with quality components and an innovative interface at very reasonably prices. 

I'm collecting several, but if I were just going to buy one it would be the D1 with neutral XP-L HI emitter.


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## magellan (Oct 5, 2017)

idleprocess said:


> FTFY
> 
> Simplistically, smash the efficiency limits of best-of-class LEDs against the power-delivery limits of AAA alkaline cells and you arrive at best-possible lumens:
> 
> ...



Only just now saw this. Great info and summary of the issues, thanks!


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## bykfixer (Oct 6, 2017)

I was pretty excited about the arrival of this today...





Like new condition





Found an old copper top in a drawer.
I fed it off the fresh Rayovac in the photo and put the old copper top inside the package to mimic oem.





It's got that whole jewel thief thing going...

This thing must've caused quite the stir way back when. Not quite pure white like we see today but it's certainly a nice beam for finding the steps in the dark, helping fix a flat tire and stuff like that. Much better runtime than an incan Solitaire of the day and brighter to boot. Doesn't look like much these days yet a mighty fine story behind the latest edition to the vintage collection.


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## bla2000 (Oct 6, 2017)

Warmcopper123 said:


> ... and when that black single cell light with the turbo head and the amazing Cree led hit the scene and everyone went nuts for it. cant remember the name of that light. Geez I sound like an old fart reminiscing



Are you thinking of the Regalight WT1? Or the Tiablo A9?


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## Ninja (Oct 7, 2017)

Still running my ARCs daily, The Fenix LOD Xmas edition was placed back in the box 4 the E01 key chain.

Looking for a sf M6 LED replacement ...


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## archimedes (Oct 7, 2017)

Ninja said:


> ....
> Still running my ARCs daily, The Fenix LOD Xmas edition was placed back in the box 4 the E01 key chain.
> 
> Looking for a sf M6 LED replacement ...



Wow, those are some very nice rarities in your photo above.

I run an MD60N in the SF M6 ....


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## Ninja (Oct 7, 2017)

Thanks archimedes ! 
went over to Malkoff Devices & they don't look like they have them any longer - Elzetta is the exclusive manufacturer of the M60, which I have & will try when I get back to the states ... guess I'll be watching for a 60N over on the CPF Classifieds 8>)


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 7, 2017)

Awhile back I resurrected my Malkoff M60, and like the lux over the M61. Some thing about that XR-E's beams throw with the Malkoff optic.

Bill


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## archimedes (Oct 7, 2017)

archimedes said:


> Wow, those are some very nice rarities in your photo above.
> 
> I run an MD60N in the SF M6 ....





Ninja said:


> Thanks archimedes !
> went over to Malkoff Devices & they don't look like they have them any longer - Elzetta is the exclusive manufacturer of the M60, which I have & will try when I get back to the states ... guess I'll be watching for a 60N over on the CPF Classifieds 8>)



*MD* 60 ... not M60. It's a tower-type version.

Yes, sorry, they are discontinued.

Might be able to find one here, though, through WTB / WTS


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## Dknight16 (Oct 7, 2017)

I’m late to the party, but generally agree with the original post comments. 

My first serious LED light was a SF Aviator that featured a main xenon bulb and 3 low output LEDs. For EDC I bought a flurry of single AA or A123 powered lights. I finally landed on the Olight T10 which was a perfect balance of brightness, beam quality, minimal size and weight, and easy on the pocket (smooth and without sharp edges). It allowed me to sit out the middle year’s of the lumen wars.

Then I found this place and custom builders like Don McLeish making Ti works of art. Once I started learning about different CREE and Nichia emitters I had a compelling reason to buy new lights. Haiku with XP-G2, Mule with 119, and Sundrop XR-U with XM-L2. I was also persuaded to buy a LensLight KO due to its beam adjustability.

Subsequent advances in lumens were traded off by thermal limitations. Like you said, extraordinary output measured in seconds. Whoopie. It took me a few years to be tempted by a new innovation: triples. So now I have a Twisted Trident, and a BOSS on the way.

Xenon gave way to LED reliability ... then improved LED output ... then improved LED color/tint ... then rally high LED output ... then multiple LED emitters. So I’m probably set for a long time until the next leap in innovation occurs. Once you climb to the top, there is no place to take that next step.

On the low cost end, I have that covered with my old technology models that I spread around the house. So no personal interest in all of the cheap (albeit decent quality) Chinese lights.


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## Boris74 (Oct 7, 2017)

bykfixer said:


> I was pretty excited about the arrival of this today...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i have an Infinity Ultra AA light that I’ve had forever. There wasn’t much of any LED lights when I got it. It’s old and still kickin and well used. 

http://www.dansdata.com/ledlights15.htm

really good user that's all you need up close. It’s been through many several day to week long power outages and never needed more than one battery for the entire time. That ARC looks interesting but I’m plenty happy with my dinosaur early days LED Infinity Ultra.


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## this_is_nascar (Oct 7, 2017)

Warmcopper123 said:


> Interest has definitely waned for me. just not getting excited about the endless black flashlights from china . surefire doesn't do it for me anymore as I dislike the new designs . You know what I miss the most? no one does OD HAIII anodizing anymore!!!
> 
> after all the lights I have owned and it goes way back to the Arc and Longbow and Sandwich Shoppe Aleph days, I have come full circle back to the lowly Fenix E01 aaa. I carry it every day and use it all the time . horrible tint and about 12 lumens but it gets the job done because its on me 24/7. I sold everything I had because I wasn't using any of it. I miss some of them and wish I hadn't sold a few but they just sat in a drawer unless I played with them in front of the TV. But I miss the old days its just not the same without Milkyspit and Arc and McGizmo with the PD system.
> 
> ...


You sound like me. I've sold just about everything and continue to use one of my black Fenix E01 in my pocket and a 2014 version E05 on my keyring. That's really handles 99% of my daily needs. That E01 was one of the best purchase I've ever made. You just need to get past that tint.


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## Crazyeddiethefirst (Oct 7, 2017)

As a self avowed enthusiast/flashaholic, I do not find my interest has waned, but my life circumstances have. When I was jumping out of airplanes, going into various parts of the US as well as multiple foreign countries to bring the critically ill & injured home, lights were a much needed tool that had to be dependable and also have a CRI I could live with. This led to trying out a lot of lights. Today, I am inspired when I find old lights that were state of the art for their time. In addition, NarsilM has brought back some of the joy that was missing because almost all manufacturers are using one of 5 or 6 user interfaces(until NarsilM). The BLF Q8, Gigathrower(Giggles), and D1/D1S/D4 all use it and I am quite pleased. Since I have been "grounded" due to health issues for almost 2 years now, I am finally realizing that buying several new lights each week and never selling them, occasionally gifting them, has left me with a very substantial investment. The only problem is that while some(Surefire E1E, E2E, multiple customs/mods) have appreciated in value, the more "common" ones have not. In the last 2 years I have seen heartbreaking stories of flashaholics dying unexpectedly and the family left with no idea of the value of the collection or what to do with it. I have all original packaging plus "O" rings, holsters, instructions and original packaging for at least 300-350 of my lights. The problem is, the packaging is in storage, instructions are in a notebook, accessories are in several "tackle box" type cases. Since I still keep around 50 in my wooden toolbox & strategically placed in homes, vehicles etc, to put everything back together to sell would represent several months of work to accomplish. Yet without it, if I die(unfortunately more likely than not)suddenly, my youngest son would probably determine the most valuable lights and try to sell them here and all the rest on the 'bay. So I am slowly putting a plan together and may have a massive sale in a few months. But when I pull out lights I have not seen for a long time(Tiablo VN custom), or other lights, I still light up like a kid at Christmas....


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## RollerBoySE (Oct 7, 2017)

For a long time flashlights meant MagLites.

I was pretty happy with the 4Sevens MiNi 123 and the DRY (3xCREE XM-L T6 3×18650).

After that came Manker E14 and Noctigon M43.

The recent arrival of the Emisar D4 and the Astrolux MF-01 shows that there is plenty more to have.

Next step will very likely be active cooling, so the future is BRIGHT (and I am, for a good reason, still addicted).


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## bykfixer (Oct 7, 2017)

Boris74 said:


> i have an Infinity Ultra AA light that I’ve had forever. There wasn’t much of any LED lights when I got it. It’s old and still kickin and well used.
> 
> http://www.dansdata.com/ledlights15.htm
> 
> really good user that's all you need up close. It’s been through many several day to week long power outages and never needed more than one battery for the entire time. That ARC looks interesting but I’m plenty happy with my dinosaur early days LED Infinity Ultra.



Now I want an Infinity. Thanks for the link. 

For nearly 100 years flashlight tech did not change a lot. Between 1890 something and about 1910 the bulb was horrible. Tungston filaments made a giant step forward but batteries really sucked until about 1917 when a man made a recipe that would store current longer than a refrigerated gallon of milk stays drinkable. By then the light itself became a lot of sameness over and over. 
Want brighter? Add batteries. Want runtime? Add bigger batteries. Want durable? Well that was the next step that didn't happen until the late 1960's. In the 70's alkaline technology changed the game again. 

A flashlight junky born in the 1920's had to wait nearly 50 years for something worth getting excited about. 

Me, being born in the 1960's saw huge strides as a lad, followed by the invention of the LED, which about 20 years later started becoming a viable alternative to the light bulb. I also saw carbon zinc replaced by alkalines, then lithiums during that period called the late 20th century.

Since Y2k didn't end up being the end of time, I have seen huge strides in technology. The once really lousy rechargeable battery is now capable of huge improvements without 'memory'. Cordless phone chargers used to zap the battery dead to ensure a full charge occured since memory was a significant issue. 

The light bulb is seen as a thing of the past in nearly every form of lighting. LED tech has become available in nearly any light you use from solar lamps that dimly light your sidewalk to turn signals in your car. Flashlights are brighter than even early thinkers could have imagined. 

Now in the little time I've been a member here, (1/5 of a decade of a 5+ decade life so far) I have seen folks shout for joy over 500 lumens from a handheld flashlight to yawns over a 5000 lumen one. 

For me the excitement is still there, but at this point in the 21st century flashlights seem to be entering a territory they did 100 years ago... hopefully it won't result in 50 years of sameness again. And hopefully light makers will get away from fake numbers that attempt to make a consumer think there's a gigantic leap forward in their same old sameness efforts. The "as seen on tv" garbage is here to stay. Consumers don't care if their bogo $19 flashlight is actually putting out 3000 blumens. They see the ground they walk on nearby lit very well and that's good enough for that segment of the market.

We flashaholics know better. But what makes me yawn is when I see a product touting some astronomical output that current technology doesn't allow to occur more than 43 seconds, then reduces to a number that is really no big deal, and actually nothing impressive. When you take something that is physically capable of say, 300 lumens, increase efficiency by say 10%, increase heat transfer efficiency through engineering and get say... 340 stable lumens? 375, 400.... I'm impressed. 30 more minutes runtime using existing technology is where I get all excited too. It may not sound like much, but one step at a time LED technology is still inching forward. 

I posted that ARC AAA to show just how far we've come since Y2k.


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## UVvis (Oct 7, 2017)

I remember how crazy bright a mag charger was.

When LED's were new, I wouldn't have imagined 200lumena on a AAA, let alone more than minutes of runtime.

My first serious led light was a Surefire KL3. I think I have a new packaged black KL3 in my closet somewhere. An unbelievable 15-20 lumens of green blue light for days.

Then output past 100 lumens, and the battery hog incans started loosing. I struggle that my tiny led's outperform my old M3T with the high output lamp.


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## idleprocess (Oct 7, 2017)

UVvis said:


> Then output past 100 lumens, and the battery hog incans started loosing. I struggle that my tiny led's outperform my old M3T with the high output lamp.



The pinnacle of one technology often comes at the end of its reign as the market leader. Sometimes afterwards, but by then it's lost the competition for market share. Perhaps the incan will bounce back with some of the interesting things we've been hearing about in materials science labs, but it's not something to bet on at this point.

I impulse-bought a Manker MK41 for ~$50 the other day: ~1500 lumens with 4x AA NiMH or ~2000 lumens, neutral white LED; tossed on some IMR 14500 cells capable of 6.5A discharge for an additional ~$25. Not even five years ago that would have been impossible. Now it's _almost_ something you can buy off the shelves of a mainline sporting goods store.


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## bykfixer (Oct 7, 2017)

I impulse bought a Mag ML50 tonight. I was thinking of hot-wiring a vintage 3C but the ML50 voices kept whispering in my ear "3 levels"... "15+ hour run time"... "1/4 turn spot to spill".... aint a bad little flashlight for $34.


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## contigo (Oct 8, 2017)

wjv said:


> And the people who buy the 20,000 lumen AtomicFire SuperBeam (with technology used by the special forces) flashlight for $19.95, think that their light is way superior to your wimpy Fenix/Olight/Nitecore that ONLY puts out 2,000 lumens. . . .
> 
> With no regard to:
> - tint
> ...




This is so true...and i was one of them way-back-when. Their wording on those lights was enough to make one self believe it was the beez-knees.

The flashlight industry has taken such giant steps from inc and LED lights, it was monumental to say the least.
Not only the wow factor but run times as well....it was unheard of...and now its common place. I can understand why they dont flock to it as in the past.


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## bykfixer (Oct 9, 2017)

Whutz PMW?


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## peter yetman (Oct 9, 2017)

It's something to do with those yellow boxes at the top of some of the threads.
P


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## KITROBASKIN (Oct 9, 2017)

bykfixer said:


> Whutz PMW?



Probably Mindless Worrying 

People who are new to the scene are excited. Seems like more guests are viewing CPF than the recent past, if the numbers shown here are accurate.

Maybe back then, flashlights were like the days when Television was the three big networks and PBS, but then we started getting more offerings, then cable TV, then satellite... Perhaps we are in the heyday of plenty, but those of us who pretty much have what we need are not as fervent now. Back when I started here, it was a bit of a letdown to see people writing about being bored with current models when it was all very exciting for me.


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## Spork (Oct 12, 2017)

I don't know if I was ever more excited than when the original arc aaa came out. A keychain size light that took a standard battery and had regulated output. It was exciting seeing new led products come out with the promises of led having better durability and run time as they gained on incandescent. Now its just a normal thing and a single cell light can cover most anyones need. 

I would say that my excitement now has been focusing on making my simple collection neutral white. I just want a quality light that works and not interested in expensive custom stuff but not going to buy the basic cheap lights from the store either. A lot of people only use their phone and don't even think about having a working flashlight around the house.


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## mickb (Oct 15, 2017)

god said let there be light
man said let there by flashlights
users said let their be LED's
Flashaholics said let there be crazy Leds
Batteries left behind in space race.
flashaholics develope 12 setting light that can xray their poodle at the same time they walk it.
Users leave empire in such of the old planets 'Sensible lumens', and 'Simple UI'


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## flashy bazook (Dec 19, 2017)

idleprocess said:


> My journey with CPF started as a professional interest 2003-2004. I was working for a manufacturer backlighting a static graphics display with failure-prone florescent lights whose heat would literally melt the solder off of other electronics in the same housing. I happened across CPF researching the then kind-of-new concept of LED backlighting. Never did implement a LED backlight for that product and left the company in late 2004, but CPF has remained.
> 
> The early days were indeed exciting as the original power LED - the Lumileds Luxeon - had been released to the world at multiple *tens* of dollars a pop. Previously, LED flashlights had required showerhead arrangements with their 3mm and 5mm LEDs to spit out the ~30 lumens that the Luxeon managed. Early on, you had to DIY it, haggle with a modder, or (usually) pre-order something from one of the small outfits that was messing with these exotic beasts. The pinnacle of those days for me was the Cree XR-E, which reliably put out >100 lumens on a single die without the kind of borderline-dangerous currents that Luxeons required. I still have - and marvel - at one of the short-run Alephs I bought from the 'Shoppe that's ~140 lumens on a single 123A - it's been outclassed for many years but still seems like a lot of light for something so small.
> 
> ...



An excellent post on a topic much hashed and re-hashed.

In a nutshell, if there is less interest it is because LED's have succeeded completely. No more "incans are just SO much better..." discussions.

Nobody much gets excited about desktop computers either, for similar reasons, if you want one, you already have one (or more) that are perfectly adequate. So you focus more on other characteristics, such as portability (like, you buy new smart phones which are essentially miniature connected computers).

One thing to note, batteries haven't actually kept up with the LED progress curve. So there is a kind of limiting factor for flashlights (similar to electric cars for yet another analogy). Range anxiety in electric cars, (or very expensive cars with very heavy battery packs), runtime anxiety in flashlights that boast of big lumen output.

So well performing LED lights at quite cheap prices easily available, combined with not much progress on battery tech, well, there we are.


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## Lynx_Arc (Dec 19, 2017)

flashy bazook said:


> An excellent post on a topic much hashed and re-hashed.
> 
> In a nutshell, if there is less interest it is because LED's have succeeded completely. No more "incans are just SO much better..." discussions.
> 
> ...


battery tech has made a lot of progress if you consider around the time of the first 5mm LEDs and even luxeons we had mostly lead acid and nicad batteries that today are now replaced in most lighting by LSD nimh and lithium ion batteries. I think one thing that makes the battery situation less noticeable is that LEDs have changed considerably more and faster over time while batteries seem to be a more gradual thing waiting for the next chemistry to arrive and hopefully supplant lithium ions with considerably better performance.


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## recDNA (Dec 26, 2017)

I agree interest is waning however I think it is because nothing new knocks my socks off. Been that way for 2 years. Overready is great but sorry too expensive for me. HDS is nice but I'd prefer 1.5 amps at 3 volts so underpowered. Zebralight is the opposite extreme - too much power so output drops down in seconds.

If anyone invents a way to get good throw from a 0.9 inch head with a CR123A body that is comfortable to pocket yet enough spill to be useful at short range I would be excited. Surefire comes the closest but I hate the greenish tint and I find the head too wide to comfortably carry in my pocket.


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## markr6 (Dec 26, 2017)

Things just got too crazy too fast. Too much focus was placed on hitting a certain number at whatever cost. 10 seconds before drop down? Sure why not.

Others going to big lumens are fine with me as long as they have plenty of other modes with reasonable runtimes. I don't have to use the "turbo" mode or whatever they call it. Zebralight is a good example. If their latest and greatest does 1500lm for 15 seconds, but lower levels can do 200, 600, 800 etc lumens for decent runtimes, fine.

Just don't give me a light that does 1500lm for a few seconds, then a few more modes with the next highest being 400lm.

Someone already mentioned focusing on other aspects like UI, tint, reliability, etc. so I won't get into that.


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## recDNA (Dec 26, 2017)

markr6 said:


> Things just got too crazy too fast. Too much focus was placed on hitting a certain number at whatever cost. 10 seconds before drop down? Sure why not.
> 
> Others going to big lumens are fine with me as long as they have plenty of other modes with reasonable runtimes. I don't have to use the "turbo" mode or whatever they call it. Zebralight is a good example. If their latest and greatest does 1500lm for 15 seconds, but lower levels can do 200, 600, 800 etc lumens for decent runtimes, fine.
> 
> ...


Ya my fav ui is magnetic infinite adjustment but apparently gone forever.


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## Stream (Dec 26, 2017)

markr6 said:


> Others going to big lumens are fine with me as long as they have plenty of other modes with reasonable runtimes. I don't have to use the "turbo" mode or whatever they call it. Zebralight is a good example. If their latest and greatest does 1500lm for 15 seconds, but lower levels can do 200, 600, 800 etc lumens for decent runtimes, fine.
> 
> Just don't give me a light that does 1500lm for a few seconds, then a few more modes with the next highest being 400lm.



One big advantage with the crazy high lumen lights is precisely that they get great runtimes on lower levels, but I agree that mode spacing is very important. I can't really think of any brand that does this better than Zebralight, insane amount of mode options but with surprisingly intuitive UI. Much better than the somewhat daunting UI of the BLF A6. If only my SC62w had the same tint as my BLF A6 warm white, or even better, my Armytek Wizard Pro V3 XHP50. The Pro V3 warm white version is the closest I've come to truly falling in love with a tint, just a pity about the iffy reliability.


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## markr6 (Dec 27, 2017)

Stream said:


> I can't really think of any brand that does this better than Zebralight, insane amount of mode options but with surprisingly intuitive UI. Much better than the somewhat daunting UI of the BLF A6. If only my SC62w had the same tint as my BLF A6 warm white, or even better, my Armytek Wizard Pro V3 XHP50. The Pro V3 warm white version is the closest I've come to truly falling in love with a tint, just a pity about the iffy reliability.



I wish they would hire a "tint snob". Someone to sit in a room all day and just pick the best tints off each roll. Then use those in their standard lights but charge an extra 25%. Hell, I think some people here would even pay an extra 35% or more. I would. It may sound stupid, but this is the kind of stuff going on these days...not just on CPF.

And it is totally possible. I posted years ago about an SC5w OP I had. Didn't like the format, but LOVED the tint. It was literally identical to my L10C w/ Nichia 219B 4500K. A perfect tint which I called "gray"...actually no tint at all...just a perfectly balanced white. No other Zebralights I've had came close.


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## Stream (Dec 27, 2017)

markr6 said:


> I wish they would hire a "tint snob". Someone to sit in a room all day and just pick the best tints off each roll. Then use those in their standard lights but charge an extra 25%. Hell, I think some people here would even pay an extra 35% or more. I would. It may sound stupid, but this is the kind of stuff going on these days...not just on CPF.



The funny thing is that the BLF A6 has remarkable consistency when it comes to tint. I bought four in all because I didn't know which tint I wanted (two for me, two for my brother). They consisted of a pair of neutral whites and warm whites, and the two warm whites were identical, and the two neutrals where identical to each other. Not sure how they manage that in such an affordable light. Not even the two Armytek lights I bought for seven times as much money were that consistent: there was a noticeable tint difference between the two.


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