# Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"



## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 27, 2007)

So my friend saw my ROP mod and wants something similar for paint ball.

He intends to use this in total dark to blind the enemy.

There is no interest in causing eye damage so we have settled on 2,000 lumens as a fairly safe number.

The only problem is that this guy is not a hobbyist, not a tinkerer, not a "gee let's take it apart and see how it works" kinda guy.

He wants turnkey.

I've read lots and lots about this mod or that one but no one ever mentions how "bullet proof" something is, just how bright.

We would like to stay under $300 and 3 D is the max size.

BTW, where the hell can I get a KUI socket? the thread is closed.


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## Carpenter (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Wow.

I don't play paintball, but 2,000 lumens seems like a lot to disorient an opponent. Depending on distance between the light and the opponent, 2,000 may cause some eye damage.

My 2 cents,

Back it down to an ROP. Low tinker factor. Just gotta keep the batteries charged. 250-300 lumens with low bulb and 400-500 w/ high bulb. Or maybe a SureFire G3 or 9P with P91 bulb. 200 lumens for 20 minutes. 

That should be more than enough to let your friend get a shot off while the opponent is trying to figure out whats going on.

Also, again not knowing about paintball, is your friend willing to have his light become multi-colored with different colored paint or does this paint come out in the wash?

Good luck in your search.

BTW - Let me know if you want to go G3 - "Shameless Plug" - I got one for sale with P91 right now.


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## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Range should be 50 feet or more.

He was asking me earlier if I thought someone could build a switch that would run on Bluetooth.

I guess his trigger activates the hopper via Bluetooth.

We played a little with the ROP HI and he decided it wasn't close enough to a Q-Beam to justify the switch.


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## Carpenter (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Any of the above light I mentioned can do over 50 feet. I have never seen a light that activates via bluetooth. If they make one, that makes me want to start looking into Bluetooth myself 

I'm thinking you need something light that can by fastened to the paint-gun. Something heavy like a Mag body might mess your friend up. Also with this setup since I don't know about Bluetooth the next best thing is a pressure switch put on the side of the gun.

Again, I'm not the expert, but maybe something like a SureFire X300 with pressure switch. It comes in just under $300. I'm sure there are other solutions, and I'm sure somebody with more experience will have a better answer than this.

Another thought.. does a paint gun have any recoil. Depending on how much recoil the gun has, you may need to add that to your buying decision as recoil and some incan bulbs don't go well together.


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## nitnapz (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

my input

a mag85 would run for less than an hour on the typical battery source, so i would say go higher than 500lumen with leds. you could find a mag with a shorter profile with multiple reflectors, that would provide you with a steady amount of light and nice and white and much lighter than a heavy M85.

donshock may still have a 2d mag in the 200 range, that should give you a nice 600+ lumen. 

2000 lumen would suck on batteries. unless you grabber a boxer24watt hid, which i think bulb lumen is 1800+ to 2000 or so lumen .. higher 300 range


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## jimjones3630 (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

if your looking for 2000 lumen out the window torch lumens then

64610 50w, 1879tlumen out the window at 14.3vbulb, have one in a 5xA123, or 11 cell 1500mah pak in 2D [email protected]

64430 35w, 2166tlumen out the window at 9.6vbulb. 4C or 3D host with 3XA123. Requires fairly new battery charger for A123's which several do have programs for A123.

5761 30w,1351blumen ,878tlumen out the window and blinds me when accidently flashed in eyes. Has more output with 2xA123, noticable brighter. fits in 3C small form factor.

keep an eye on B/S/T.

64430 or rather it's tungsram subsitute 56580, orsram quit making 64430, is white white color and when run on A123 has flat discharge curve. Ran one continous for IIRC 20min. could still hold on to it by the tailcap. 56580 instantflashed at 10.8v. and ran fine vbat. 10.4. bulb pulls the pak down nicely. last measurement last night 9.98vbat, 9.45vbulb and that was in AW driver which it does not need soft start function. AW current drive is not v in-v out. waiting for that to come out.


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## jimjones3630 (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

lumens quoted above are from AWRs hotrater. 

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=91180

you might post a want to buy in B/S/T for kiu socket or wait have heard Northern Lights is going to make available his G4 & G6.35 bipin adaptors.


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## nitnapz (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



jimjones3630 said:


> 64430 35w, 2166tlumen out the window at 9.6vbulb. 4C



this looks attractive. could be used with AW's C s ? what would the runtime look like, how much current would the bulb drain ?

on a sidenote. i am in the process of acquiring an USL, which bulbs could be interchangable with the one to provide a decent runtime, or am i better off leaving the 100W bulb in there and build a second light, that would provide better battery life .. thanks


regards


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## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

no recoil to speak of on paintball guns.
besides, his fires 41 balls per second 
(so he claims, lets not get into a pissing match over rate of fire)

we are looking to light up the whole woods for short bursts, maybe 1 min at a time.
20 mins total run time would be fine

IIRC the 5761 only gets about 900-1000 and has  problems

a bored 3 D would be 12 AA's or 14.4
I thought there were some Osram bulbs that ran around there and were fairly solid. No?

What sort of cost are we looking at to bore?


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## Pöbel (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

the question is how long he's going to like the light being at least twice as heavy as his Ego7


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## DrifT3R (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

100 lumens in total dark is more than enough to temporarily blind someone.


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## thezman (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



gratewhitehuntr said:


> BTW, where the hell can I get a KUI socket? the thread is closed.



Kiu sockets


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## Nitro (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

I'd go with a Mag85 3C with AW's LiIon's cells. That's ~1200 bulb lumens and ~850 out the front, for ~60mins. Very bright white light.

Check out the "Got Throw?" link in my sig for pics and beamshots.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



nitnapz said:


> this looks attractive. could be used with AW's C s ? what would the runtime look like, how much current would the bulb drain ?



No. This is a high current bulb, using 7 to 8 Amps which overdriven to its optimum of 9.6 to 9.9 Volts. AW's PTC current breaks the circuit at 5.5A which is why it is better to use 3 x Emoli Lithium cells or A123 Lithium cells. Both use the newer safe Lithium chemistries, and have much higher current ratings and no protection circuit.

Another solution is to use 8 or 9 of the new Elite 1700mAh AA cells from cheapbatterypacks.com or 2/3A Elite 1500mAh cells....but then you need a Hotdriver, or hopefully AW is getting closer to his version.


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## nitnapz (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



LuxLuthor said:


> 3 x Emoli Lithium cells or A123 Lithium cells



awesome, thanks - i think i now have my 5th build planned out. 
mag4c 3xemoliosram 35w


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## Raoul_Duke (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Not sure you will get 3 emoli in a 4C. about 10mm to long from memory. You may be able to chop up/ replace the switch to make more room. You might fit them into a 3D with no spring in the tailcap.

A123's will fit. I think Jim jones made a nice 4C with 3 A123's.

Also what Ozram lamp would you plan to use?

4 Emoli in a 6C is nice, ( But the 6C is getting harder to find) I have built one and use a variety of 12V ozram lamps inc. the 64623, but they are real tight, although I hear C mags have some internal variation.


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## jimjones3630 (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

64430 which is out of production and it's subsitute tungsram 56580 both draw around 7.5A so AW's C's wouldn't work even with an NTC.

USL bulb is G6.35 100w bulb. I like Osram 64610 50W, white white color and about twice run time.



nitnapz said:


> this looks attractive. could be used with AW's C s ? what would the runtime look like, how much current would the bulb drain ?
> 
> on a sidenote. i am in the process of acquiring an USL, which bulbs could be interchangable with the one to provide a decent runtime, or am i better off leaving the 100W bulb in there and build a second light, that would provide better battery life .. thanks
> 
> ...


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## jimjones3630 (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

5761 is 900-1000 out the window lumens or torch lumens. runs on 2 AW C cells for about 30min. run.

14.4v pak rested 62138 100w bulb, or 64623 100w with runtime 10=12 min. 

To light up the whole woods think maybe 64625 but it's a 11 cell bulb.



gratewhitehuntr said:


> no recoil to speak of on paintball guns.
> besides, his fires 41 balls per second
> (so he claims, lets not get into a pissing match over rate of fire)
> 
> ...


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## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



jimjones3630 said:


> 5761 is 900-1000 out the window lumens or torch lumens. runs on 2 AW C cells for about 30min. run.
> 
> 14.4v pak rested 62138 100w bulb, or 64623 100w with runtime 10=12 min.
> 
> To light up the whole woods think maybe 64625 but it's a 11 cell bulb.




I just ordered a KIU socket for my 6 D mag.

I'll see how the 5761 works if I can find a damn voltage regulator.

I just got your PM. What did you have for sale again?


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## jimjones3630 (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Yes 3 emoli in a 4C would need extender of some kind, 3 A123 2300mah fit 4C nicely with Northern Lights tailcap mod. Emoli nominal votage is 4.2v and A123 3.3v so 4 emoli = 16.8v and will sag some on start up thus 64623 would be blazing. 

3 A123 in 3D, mine anyway, come with in few mm of end just enough to screw tailcap on again with Northern Lights wonderful tailcap mod.

3 emoli 3000mah in a 4C, 12.6v nominal would power up 64610 50W of bright white white light for over 30-35min. and over twice the lumens of 1185.



Raoul_Duke said:


> Not sure you will get 3 emoli in a 4C. about 10mm to long from memory. You may be able to chop up/ replace the switch to make more room. You might fit them into a 3D with no spring in the tailcap.
> 
> A123's will fit. I think Jim jones made a nice 4C with 3 A123's.
> 
> ...


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## nitnapz (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



jimjones3630 said:


> 100w bulb



i see that RC battery packs online look very solid, but are expensive and i am not sure whether there are any hosts that may accommodate them 







8000mah Capacity 
7.4 Volts 
44mm X 137mm X 26mm 
20C Constant(160 amps) 
30C Sustained(240 amps) 
50C Burst(400 amps) 
365 grams 

what if some of these could fit in a D, possibly a smaller profile, but a one stop shot for powers supplies


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## jimjones3630 (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Just sold in another forum [email protected] 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/174974

with hot driver adjustable would work with several bulbs. HD at 12.9vbulb 64625 100w HOLA, 64610 50w LOLO.

I was going to offer it with a finned 2" head to get the cost down around $300. but darn it sold

Have couple of others may suit you. I didn't want to write up sale ads for all of them. You gave the lumens and form factor, not larger than 3D, not more 2000lumens, the ones I pm you met that with the exception of 5761 but it's 1300blumens is blinding enough for me and several law enforcement Officers in this forum.

So now that one is sold can continue doing what I like which is building them. 



gratewhitehuntr said:


> I just ordered a KIU socket for my 6 D mag.
> 
> I'll see how the 5761 works if I can find a damn voltage regulator.
> 
> I just got your PM. What did you have for sale again?


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## Northern Lights (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

You appear to be asking for the very light I built.
Missionary man found a new hot wire bulb. 
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=168564
The 64430 is available as a Chinese radial element bulb and it works good. There are some supplies of the original Osram 64430, axial bulb. I have a few dozen on hand and I know other CPF'ers that have found good supplies too. I have a 2D tri-bore that hosts 9 GP2000 in a soldered battery pack, nominal 10.8 volts. 
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=169824
The switch is fixed for resistance and the socket sets on the Litho123 reflector. So far testing, it runs OK without any soft start like a driver or the NTC which I have been advocating. 
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=170972
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=172284
I am replacing the socket with my new ceramic design that uses mill-max connectors that are rated for the amps. Once I complete this developement I probably with sell this like everything else. Can't control the urge to build just one more light. After a few seconds of turning it on it settles to 9.9 volts at the bulb. The A123 start at Vbat=9.9 so I do not know haw much the Vbulb drops in the A123 light but I suspect the GP powered light is brighter. The hotrater gives this combination with 9.9 volts at the bulb, as 2383 torch lumens, 3666 bulb lumens. Problem is there are at least three types of 64430 as I have three expamples of the bulb, two may be the same and these two types are both genuine Osram. 
I have tested but not completed the 64430 on A123 batteries which are available from DeWalt 36v packs, not the RC packs but I think Jim Jones is on top of that build and ahead of me.
The 5761 is my favorite light and can put out up to 878 torch lumens, I have built several styles. Lately Jim Jones and I have been comparing the A123 powered 5761 with the AW lithium C powered lithiums. The A123 do not drop voltage much and hold a rather steady voltage. In our lights we have notice the A123 versions to be brighter even though the initial voltage is lower than an AW cell. My current AW cells drop voltage faster than this graph:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=160048&highlight=5761
I would encourage you to search key words "5761" and "64430"
BTW, nominal voltages of the cells are AW c-cells 26540, 3.6Vbat; A123 26650 3.3Vbat, Emolie 26700 4.2Vbat. The sizes are 26 diameter, xx length, 0 is round so they are 54mm long, 65mm long and 70mm long.
The Ah are given AW 3.3 Ah, A123 2.3 Ah and Emoli 3.0Ah. AW cells are safer because they are protected cells, Emoli and A123 are safe lithium not prone to burning. To compensate for lack of protection circuits or not, I aways build hot wires with fuses in the light circuit.
Hope this helps in choices.


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## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

well crap fire and save batteries!!!!

if this Osram 64430 is a 6 volt but will run up to 9+ then it will be safe with my (damn stupid) monster D cells driving it !!!! 
(sorry but this is merging with my ROP  thread now)

Hot damn !!!

like I said, I got 8+v at the bulb without a full charge on the batteries.
SO...... anything over 6v is still overdrive
AND..... my 10K mah D's should hold at least 7v under load (for a while)
SO..... it should still beat the ROP HI 
AND.... not go 

right???

just say YES and I'll order some !!!


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## Northern Lights (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



gratewhitehuntr said:


> well crap fire and save batteries!!!!
> 
> if this Osram 64430 is a 6 volt but will run up to 9+ then it will be safe with my (damn stupid) monster D cells driving it !!!!
> (sorry but this is merging with my ROP  thread now)
> ...


64430 bulb will run on 9.6 for sure, look at missionarymans thread. On the bench, hooked by jumpers to the GP2000 10.8V, 9cell, 2-2.2Ah pack the Vbulb was 9.9 and the bulb did not insta flash. The bulb draws over 7 amps and it takes a darn good battery not to drop nominal voltage. So it does not matter that you have a D, it matters only how robust you brand of D is againts a load.
Not lets see, you are running 6Ds in a 6D hosts? Well, then you are under powered for the 64430. I built one 5761 which started life as an 6D cell ROP. I then invented my bipin to pr ceramic socket (FM markets his model) and put a 5761 in on those Ds and got a great light. The 5761 held up to the Ds, and did not insta flash and it has no soft start. I have used two brands of 10k+ Ds from Thomasdistributing. Nominal voltage on the Ds is 1.2 volts but will read higher without a load, 8+
V without a load. Put a bulb on it and the 6 pack will drop almost instantly to 7.2 and still go down. You said you had 8+ on the bulb, with 6Ds that is extemely difficult to do. Did you take the + of your meter directly on the + of the bulb and parallel negative to ground? That is about the only way you will know truly.
6Ds on a 64430 will not give you much ligtht, it will be less than the 5761 coming in at 713 torch lumens and it will look yellow. The filament is to0 robust to run 6 Ds, remember it is a 7.4 Amp bulb and drops battery power like a rock.


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## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Did you take the + of your meter directly on the + of the bulb and parallel negative to ground?

Um.... both at the top of the light?
YES I suppose.

I am asking these dumb questions because I would rather look stupid for asking questions that look stupid for having another $25 worth of flash bulbs. :shakehead

How can I be underpowered for a 6v bulb with min 7.2v ???


I have resistance fixed everything.

Sorry but no DMM to check switch resistance.

I will say that it was enough to insta-waste two ROP HI bulbs in less than 1 second each.


They are Tenergy 10,000 mah D NiMH cells.
first charge out of the box.

I had read elsewhere that the 5761 was very prone to instaflash on fresh cells, or cells that held their voltage.
Not true???


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## Northern Lights (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

As strange as it sounds you can be under powered. Voltage alone is not what powers the bulb, it is the ability to deliver the voltage and that is related to the Amp hours. The D,Cs and AA in series cannot deliver adequetely the 7.4 amp demand of the bulb. That essentially draws the voltage down. That is why my 10.8 pack is immediatley 9.9 volts at the bulb, yes you directly contact the + terminal on the bulb. This show then what votage is actually at the bulb, the losses are due to resistance. 
A123 batteries and Emoli are designed for incredible power draws, hence they are used for these powerful bulbs, tools, hybrid cars and rc models. Battery capacities are refered to as "c". 1C is the capacity of a battery in the case of a 10K Ah D, 1C is 10K A. You would think that a 10K pack could deliver the power but you would be surprised to find not everything is what it is adverstised to be. I hope that you find your cells to be premium and up to the task. If they can handle the 64430 then the 7.2 volts will produce about 700 lumens because it is rated for 650 bulb lumens or 422 torch lumens at 6 volts. Because the 5761 is rated at a higher lumen output at that voltage you woud get @ 834 torch lumens or 1331 bulb lumens. Because the 5761 draws 2 amps less than the 64430 you get brighter light, that is twice as much light and for a longer time. So do not run the 64430 on 7.2 volts, it is a loss to due so. The 5761 is the performer at that voltage. Secondly the 5761 uses a 4mm socket, g4 socket and the 64430 uses a 6.35mm or g6 socket. The 64430 is longer and more difficult to wrangle the socket to a focal point.
edit:
What might not be obvious is the bulb life is related to the robust size and shape of the filament and that determines how much overdrive, over voltage, you can apply to a bulb and also the lumen output. So although the 5761 and 64430 are both 6v bulbs, their outputs differ due to the differences in filaments.


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## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

gottcha

I do lots of reading and understand everything you just said, but sometimes questions need to be asked or someone will leave something out, thinking that you already know it.

Like.... resistance fixes will instaflash a ROP HI bulb.

So the 5761 can be run at 7.8-8v ??? (fresh cells)

I would be more than happy with 800-1000 torch lumens, just not to have a 
" Hey look at my cool light... .... hey look at how easy it is to change bulbs ... "

here is the data sheet on the cells
https://www.all-battery.com/datasheet/dsize10000mah.pdf


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## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

wait, you said 700 from a 64430 at 7.2v

that was torch right?

sorry, I was rereading 

damn it feels like bedtime


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## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

and this one wouldn't be worth a damn because it wouldn't be enough overdrive correct?

http://www.svetila.com/eProdaja/product_info.php/cPath/66_91/products_id/167


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## Northern Lights (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Fresh cells, forget what you are measuring refer to them by the manufacturer's nominal rating. You should be seeing voltages higher than the battery delivers if you measure it unloaded and fresh off the charger. The proof is to do a run, time v. voltage test loaded. There is no way to tell what the battery delivers to the load by just measuring the fresh charge on the cell. Here is an example, notice this is a 3.6 V cell that came in at almost 3.7V, see how it drops upon loading:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=160048&highlight=5761
So the answer is a qualified yes to running the 5761 at that 7.8-8.0 volts you wrote about provided you are refering to the higher than nominal reading you get if you measure a fresh battery unloaded. You will not be getting anything like those voltages at the bulb *with the bulb turned on and illuminated*. You should see bulb voltages in the range of 6.6-7.1 on those cells and your light. The variables of cell quality, cell condition and resistance of the circuit all play to this. The voltage delivered and measured while running at the bulb should not be higher than 7.1 Volts for a 5761. You will insta flash it at a higher Vbulb. Running that high you would have to be using 7 cells and a driver because six will not deliver that. 
Some NiMh cells fresh off the charger, e.g. 12 Powerex AA 2700 mAh in a 6series 2parallel pack (5400 mAh), will deliver voltage high enough to insta flash a 5761. The Maha Powerex is underated, probably the only one that is, by the manufacturer and delivers more voltage loaded than they claim on a fresh battery. The cure for this is soft start like a driver or NTC. On the other hand I never insta flashed a 5761 on D NiMH batteries or Sanyo AA 2700 mAh configured 6s2p packs so I ran those without soft start.
One key we are overlooking is the battery C rate, c=capacity. That affects how well the voltage is delevered under load. It so happens that the parallel 5400 pack delivers voltage well but not as good as two A123 cells.
The specification sheet on those batteries, your link, is pretty standard and does not reflect what is actually happening. That is a nominal sheet and it tells me you are not operating at the voltages you see fresh without a load. Take a Vbulb reading at the bulb positive pin. If you are at 7.0 to 7.1, not likely but could happen, use the NTC I refered to in the circuit by isolating the ground at the tail cap and putting it there. Easy to do. If you see Vbulb <7.0 you are not likely to insta flash until your bulb has some hours on it, expected life 5761 at 7.0 volts is 15 hours. 
The svetila bulb is very interesting. 4000 hours will allow you to really put some volts to it but it only starts out at 130 bulb lumens.
"wait, you said 700 from a 64430 at 7.2v" that is torch lumens.
How many hours a bulb runs and how bright it is affect each other so the selection of the voltage rating is arbitrary by the manufacturer. They could say bulb x runs 1000 hours at y lumens at 6 volts and then they could use the same bulb list it at 12 volts and change the hours and lumens. Arbitrary.
Welch Allyn publishes the equations that are used to calculate bulb performance, those and some hard work by CPF members long before I joined produced a great deal of calculation formulas and the last one is a rule of thumb, 65% or bulb lumens equals torch lumens in our kind of hot wires. One former member, AWR, built a calculating spread sheet called hotrater. If I get some time I will work your new bulb find through an updated version of the hotrater and post here on what came of it.
I cannot condense all the information on running the 5761 in a few posts. You need to search cpf under "5761"; so many variations have been tried, the reading will be immense. I think your 6D light will work just fine with a 5761. Keep in mind you may need to soft start it if you can hold a high voltage at the bulb, but that is not likely in my experience with 6D NiMh cells.


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## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Actually I did read up on the 5761.

It was you NL, I believe who was having trouble with the 5761 after doing resistance fixes and ended up adding a thermistor in the tailcap.

How about this for a solution.......

6 x 1.2 = 7.2
7 x 1.2 = 8.4
8 x 1.2 = 9.6

9.6v no load should be 9v under load (load=64430)

how does that work on the hotrater?

BTW, have you ever seen these???
http://www.svetila.com/eProdaja/product_info.php?currency=USD&cPath=66_70&products_id=672


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## jimjones3630 (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

I'll take the liberty to answer briefly for Northen Lights regarding your post he had trouble with instantflashing 5761. Did when using AW's C cells which had different PCB threasholds. Some required multi clicks to turn on. Some that did not instance flash started to instance flash. The NTC and AW driver was a response to that problem. Northen Lights can give more detail.

What I have posted from my research and development is posted as "64430 and it's subsitute tungsram 56580" which is what some supplies are subing for 64430 orders. It is a 35w, 6v, GY6.35 bulb and the batch I received have twice as large axial filament and flashed at 10.8vbat. the 64430 flashed at 10.2vbat IIRC, it required the NTC not to flash on 3xA123's. 56580 does not require NTC hence think it is more robust. 
Also 1+ on NL's comments AW cells sag alot under 7.5A but not on A123's

56580 instantflashed at 10.8vbat. I let the 3xA123 pak rest couple hours and when at 10.2ish IIRC did not flash and is so bright, with it's huge axial filament is a throw monster. 9.98vbat and 9.45vbulb. around 30min runtime.

5761 is robust within it's limits like any bulb it will instantflash when exceed it's limits. On 2xA123 = 6.68vbat and 6.4vbulb with steady discharge around 40min runtime. It is so much brighter on A123's compaired to Li C's you can see the difference. again no NTC or soft start needed, if fact am looking at ways to increase vbulb to 7.1v one of our members has a hot driver with the overhead volts to deliver 7.1v. So, the bulb can take it. There are varying differences from batch to batch like any bulb.


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## jimjones3630 (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

tried copy hotrater direct to post but can't get the formating.

Hot rater works out to 72.5w, 7.55A with 9.6vbulb. Have gotten 9.5vbulb once when vbatt=10.03v. So, 0.53v difference is best I've obtained. a little better than your estimate of 0.6v

So, Northen Lights, myself, many others have single click 5761's run on unprotected li-on cells without problems. When tried protected li cells and ran up against those cells' charateristics and overcame those challanges with workable solutions.



gratewhitehuntr said:


> Actually I did read up on the 5761.
> 
> It was you NL, I believe who was having trouble with the 5761 after doing resistance fixes and ended up adding a thermistor in the tailcap.
> 
> ...


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## Northern Lights (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



gratewhitehuntr said:


> ...
> 9.6v no load should be 9v under load (load=64430)
> 
> how does that work on the hotrater?
> ...


Interesting flashlight, have not seen it before, maybe some European members can comment on it. I have gotten bulbs from Svetila but nothing else.
Hotrater on 9.6 Vbat, battery with enough C rate and Ah to work in a light modified for minimum resistance in the circuit (@ 30mOhms) should have a Vbulb 9.38, (you have a feel for it) calculates to 3087 bulb lumens and in a magmod 2006 torch lumens. The original trial used 9.5 volts at the bulb and I have run it at 9.9 volts at the buld, I said that already, hmm... 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/168564
Kiu is a good way to use this bulb because you must drop the filament considerably compared to g4 socket bulbs, it is long from base to filament. Kiu can be adjusted to be quite low. I think you can do it with a ceramic pr to bipin adapter but I do not know who if anyone is selling one for the G6.35 pin configuration so you may be stuck with the KIU for choices. 
I need to find out it the bulb specifications fed into the equations on my version of the hotrater was for the axial or radial filament 64430, either way the numbers will be similiar.


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## jimjones3630 (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Don't think lipo pak cell would fit into D mag. Emoli and A123's are round
a123 26mm diameter; 66.5mm length
emoli 26mm diameter; 70mm length
 


nitnapz said:


> i see that RC battery packs online look very solid, but are expensive and i am not sure whether there are any hosts that may accommodate them
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Northern Lights (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



jimjones3630 said:


> Don't think lipo pak cell would fit into D mag. Emoli and A123's are round
> a123 26mm diameter; 66.5mm length
> emoli 26mm diameter; 70mm length


They don't. I worked on that problem for weeks even considered buying the basic 3.7V lipo pack and building packs, considered protection circuits,everything. A friend has a graphics program I cannot run that would overlay the dimensions of the mag diameter over the various lipo dimensions. Occaissionally I came up with a combination that would fit. Lipo handles the amps just fine, that is why it is so RC popular but in most cases I could not get a pack designed that had enough capacity, Ah, to even consider for a flashlight. Second consideration is the lipo is very flamable. The emoli and A123 have all the qualities of handling very heavy demands, are round and do not burst into flames.
What has not been touched in this thread is that the emoli and A123 are shipped in cardboard tubes that are used as insulation when the batteries are in the appropriate tool power pack. That does not work for flashlights and you have to re-wrap them with shrink wrap other wise bare you will short them out. Jim Jones and I have war stories about shorting out A123 batteries in lights! We know darn well that could happen and even with precautions it still happened while developing our builds. The batteries deliver a lot of power and the result is damaged batteries and lights but no fires. Of major importance is that the A123 battery case, the ground, is positive and you must consider putting the cells in "backwards" to what appears "normal" primarily so that the battery ground and light ground are the same polarity otherwise you do risk a short from light to a damaged battery wrapper. But if you use a polarized driver you will have to take that chance and place the A123 in the light correctly for the driver. That is one reason I put fuses into my circuits, secondly A123 and emoli are considered to be safe, not flamable, and they usually do not have protection pcb's built into the battery. Charging them you need a charger that addresses over/under charging and to prevent a short, you have no protection from a PCB, a fuse is beautiful.


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## jimjones3630 (Sep 29, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

yeah, A123 are rated for up to 70C bursts. feeling a short in tailcap heat up in my hand like a cheap toaster oven was no joke. In the time it took to unscrew tailcap it melted a ring off tail spring and was still cherry red.

that would not have been possible with a pos. ground battery which is how I now carry all A123 coverted lights. otherwise, with a "normal" neg. ground and postive casing of A123 a short is possible when tailcap spring touches both cathode and anode. small tear in shrink wrap at bottom of cell is all it takes.

I hear NL may put one of his lights in B/S/T. the last one of his didn't last an hour


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## Northern Lights (Sep 29, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



jimjones3630 said:


> I hear NL may put one of his lights in B/S/T. the last one of his didn't last an hour


He means it sold fast not burned up fast!


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 29, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Quoted with paragraph breaks so I can read it.

Fresh cells, forget what you are measuring refer to them by the manufacturer's nominal rating. You should be seeing voltages higher than the battery delivers if you measure it unloaded and fresh off the charger. The proof is to do a run, time v. voltage test loaded. There is no way to tell what the battery delivers to the load by just measuring the fresh charge on the cell. 

Here is an example, notice this is a 3.6 V cell that came in at almost 3.7V, see how it drops upon loading. So the answer is a qualified yes to running the 5761 at that 7.8-8.0 volts you wrote about provided you are refering to the higher than nominal reading you get if you measure a fresh battery unloaded. 

You will not be getting anything like those voltages at the bulb *with the bulb turned on and illuminated*. You should see bulb voltages in the range of 6.6-7.1 on those cells and your light. The variables of cell quality, cell condition and resistance of the circuit all play to this. 

The voltage delivered and measured while running at the bulb should not be higher than 7.1 Volts for a 5761. You will insta flash it at a higher Vbulb. Running that high you would have to be using 7 cells and a driver because six will not deliver that. 

Some NiMh cells fresh off the charger, e.g. 12 Powerex AA 2700 mAh in a 6series 2parallel pack (5400 mAh), will deliver voltage high enough to insta flash a 5761. The Maha Powerex is underated, probably the only one that is, by the manufacturer and delivers more voltage loaded than they claim on a fresh battery. The cure for this is soft start like a driver or NTC. 

On the other hand I never insta flashed a 5761 on D NiMH batteries or Sanyo AA 2700 mAh configured 6s2p packs so I ran those without soft start.

One key we are overlooking is the battery C rate, c=capacity. That affects how well the voltage is delevered under load. It so happens that the parallel 5400 pack delivers voltage well but not as good as two A123 cells.

The specification sheet on those batteries, your link, is pretty standard and does not reflect what is actually happening. That is a nominal sheet and it tells me you are not operating at the voltages you see fresh without a load. Take a Vbulb reading at the bulb positive pin. 

If you are at 7.0 to 7.1, not likely but could happen, use the NTC I refered to in the circuit by isolating the ground at the tail cap and putting it there. Easy to do. If you see Vbulb <7.0 you are not likely to insta flash until your bulb has some hours on it, expected life 5761 at 7.0 volts is 15 hours. 

The svetila bulb is very interesting. 4000 hours will allow you to really put some volts to it but it only starts out at 130 bulb lumens.
"wait, you said 700 from a 64430 at 7.2v" that is torch lumens.
How many hours a bulb runs and how bright it is affect each other so the selection of the voltage rating is arbitrary by the manufacturer. 

They could say bulb x runs 1000 hours at y lumens at 6 volts and then they could use the same bulb list it at 12 volts and change the hours and lumens. Arbitrary.

Welch Allyn publishes the equations that are used to calculate bulb performance, those and some hard work by CPF members long before I joined produced a great deal of calculation formulas and the last one is a rule of thumb, 65% or bulb lumens equals torch lumens in our kind of hot wires. 

One former member, AWR, built a calculating spread sheet called hotrater. If I get some time I will work your new bulb find through an updated version of the hotrater and post here on what came of it.
I cannot condense all the information on running the 5761 in a few posts. You need to search cpf under "5761"; so many variations have been tried, the reading will be immense. 

I think your 6D light will work just fine with a 5761. Keep in mind you may need to soft start it if you can hold a high voltage at the bulb, but that is not likely in my experience with 6D NiMh cells.



Northern Lights said:


> Interesting flashlight, have not seen it before, maybe some European members can comment on it. I have gotten bulbs from Svetila but nothing else.
> 
> Hotrater on 9.6 Vbat, battery with enough C rate and Ah to work in a light modified for minimum resistance in the circuit (@ 30mOhms) should have a Vbulb 9.38, (you have a feel for it) calculates to 3087 bulb lumens and in a magmod 2006 torch lumens. The original trial used 9.5 volts at the bulb and I have run it at 9.9 volts at the buld, I said that already, hmm...
> 
> ...





Northern Lights said:


> They don't. I worked on that problem for weeks even considered buying the basic 3.7V lipo pack and building packs, considered protection circuits,everything. A friend has a graphics program I cannot run that would overlay the dimensions of the mag diameter over the various lipo dimensions.
> 
> Occaissionally I came up with a combination that would fit. Lipo handles the amps just fine, that is why it is so RC popular but in most cases I could not get a pack designed that had enough capacity, Ah, to even consider for a flashlight. Second consideration is the lipo is very flamable. The emoli and A123 have all the qualities of handling very heavy demands, are round and do not burst into flames.
> 
> ...


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## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 29, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

OK so I have a KUI socket on the way and will be ordering some 5761's here in the next couple of days.

Do I need a thermistor in the tail cap?

If so it should be easy to install. Let me know.


Back to the 2,000 lumen paintball light now.


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## Northern Lights (Sep 29, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

I do not think you need an NTC in the tail cap, but if you find that you get an insta flash or that your Vbulb is greater than 7.0 volts you probably will. After you set up your light, take the Vbulb reading. If it is under 7.0 you should be OK. I have gone through enough 5761s I have learned that there is a variance in the manufacturers tolerances. All the bulbs would have met the speceification set by the manufacturer at 6v but I found one batch to be excessively sensitive to overdrive and I got some insta flashes at 7.0 or more. 6.9 is an ideal voltage for the 5761 although after soft starting they can run well at 7.1 V bulb. 
The 5761 is about the same diameter as the ROP so you should not have any reflecltor fit problems. My last batch of 5761s were slightly bellowed out in the envelope where the bulb is crimped in the manufactuing process. This was a problem with one tight fitting reflector. I took a hard fine round Dremel grinding stone and dressed it to the diameter of the bulb and ran it through the reflector from behind. Blow off any dust on the reflector, never wipe.
If you find you need a soft start NTC, here is the one that has worked so well:
http://www.newark.com/jsp/Passives/Thermistors/AMETHERM/SL12+1R010/displayProduct.jsp?sku=72J6730

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=170972
The cooling and reseting curve is about the same as the filament so that makes it a match coupled with a low residual resistance. Maximum resitance is 1 ohm and it heats up in "miliseconds" per Ametherm. At the 5.5 amps of the 5761 it runs at about .06 ohms residual resistance. That is what the most important parameter of an NTC soft start, how much resitance is left over atfter start up because that stays in your circuit. Most of the other Ametherms are closer to 1 ohm, therefore this was the best choice. You have to do a few calculations to figure all that out. In this case we have done it and this NTC works. At 71 cents it is a deal!
Let us know how it turns out and your thoughts about it. Good luck.


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## BSBG (Sep 29, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Not trying to put a damper on the festivities, but why does this paintballer need 2000 lumens when real LEOs and soldiers get by with 65 to 125 lumen Surefires?


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## Northern Lights (Sep 29, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



BSBG said:


> Not trying to put a damper on the festivities, but why does this paintballer need 2000 lumens when real LEOs and soldiers get by with 65 to 125 lumen Surefires?


Maybe because the real LEOs and Soldiers do not know the difference and that is because few people really care about night illumination or even give it a thought, those that do end up on these forums. I find that to be true with the LEOs I supply lights to and work with; they just do not know there is a difference or what a "lumen" is. They are not flashaholics and buy what the salesmen sell them. Once they see really bright lights, efficient lights they buy them. 
I do not use less than the 5761 at about 854 Torch lumens to do the same as gratewhitehuntr has mentioned, to interfere with their night vision. Some companies have tried to disrupt night vision by introducing strobing or flashing modes. It works but if your light gets too "busy" to use you cannot remember how to use it once you are under dire duress and struggling with muscle memory and your biological fight or flight responses. I find more modes than off/on to be impractical. Shortly my 64430 will replace my other larger patrol light because of the 2k+ lumens. 65-125 lumens is enough to find your way around in the dark but lacks tactical advantage or the ability to illuminate details at tactical distances. You often see sales pitches about this light or this Sure something is a tactical light at 65 lumens, etc., all advertising claims by the sellers not knowlegable users. Who do the consumers believe? It is a trap and the best ad campaigns win. Been there, done that.


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## jimjones3630 (Sep 29, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

why someone needs 2000L - the question begs an answer. reframing the question why someone needs anything. the why is not as interesting as the need. 

NL touched on last post advertising and salesmen, prospective buyers with limited experience and knowledge base. non flashoholics don't know the difference bewteen 1300blumen and 2000tlumen, or between 790 and 878 torch lumen. the proof is in the seeing that difference.

several people have commented on how much brighter 5761 looks on A123 as compared to on protected C cells. only that I have both or used 5761 enough can that brightness statement become meaningful.

if someone tells me oh this or that is brighter than this or that having no reference of comparison it's meaningless. Beam shots are helpful.

why is that worth writing about? well, for one I went through a lot of basic mods which is useful to gain ability and working knowledge of modding. Most early mods quickly stop satisfying. If had to do over some of them I'd skip. 

The difference between 2000 lumens and 14,000 is worth the work to me. basically, the same amount of work and materials for either are about the same.

my understanding of risk to eye damage is same, which is none because at a certain lumen level you have to blink. for me having 900lumens in my eyes is enough to blink. I have been at traffic stops, felony search- cops with flood lights run off a generator, like ones used at a football statium aimed at the driver once he stops. No mass complaints or repercussions in media, etc.


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## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 29, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



BSBG said:


> Not trying to put a damper on the festivities, but why does this paintballer need 2000 lumens when real LEOs and soldiers get by with 65 to 125 lumen Surefires?



My friend just came back from Iraq for a little leave.

He came to meet me at a post I was on one night, I said I wanted to show him my new light.
He has been issued a Surefire by Uncle Sam.

My cheapo CHINA with a P4 Cree blew his light away.


I have contact with LEOs almost every night (three times last night)
Before someone tries to say that "Maybe the BFEPD has crap lights, but not my department" 
I would like to point out that I normally see either Orange County SO, Orlando PD, or Polk County SO.
It may not be LA but these aren't small forces.
Even FHP has MC's.

Most have Stingers or Magchargers. Every now and again someone will have a Gladius.
Even my WF-500 
(which most would consider to be junk compared to name brands)
surprises and impresses them to the point that they ask where I got it/what does it cost/how can I get one?

One officer saw my ROP LO and asked what he could do to improve his MC.

Others were blown away by the ROP HI (run on 4 UF 18650's)

It isn't that police and soldiers wouldn't want better lights, it's that they don't know they exist.

To answer in another way...

when I turn on my 3D M*g (70 lumens) it is enough to irritate people and show basic shapes within 100 ft

when I turn on my Cree led (90 lumens but very white) it is enough to hurt their eyes and give me a good view within 100 ft

when I turn on the WF-500 (400? lumens) it is enough that people can feel the heat and I can see stuff 150 feet away clearly

when I turn on the ROP HI (so far as bright as I've had) people plaster their hands over their eyes and I CEASE TO BE SEEN BEHIND THE LIGHT

seems to work good out to 250 ft (clear view with some "washout" under street lights)


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## paulr (Sep 29, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

I think the concept of an idiot proof, low tinker factor incandescent m*g mod at 2000 lumens is fundamentally out of reach of current technology. This is almost USL range and those lights are pushing the limits of battery capability, interconnects, switches, thermal management, bulbs, etc. You need to take care to avoid starting fires with the lights. You need careful charging regimens. You must turn off the light as soon as it starts to dim, to avoid damaging the battery stack through reverse charging. If you use lithium ion, there is an explosion hazard. If you use high current NiMH, there have been leakage problems. You can buy all the 2000 lumen large lanterns and spotlights you want commercially, because they are useful lights (Blitz 240 looks nice). But you can't buy commercial lights that bright in Mag size, even in the military/LEO market willing to pay basically infinite prices, because incandescent lights just can't be made that small with the level of simplicity and reliability that a commercial product requires, which is precisely what you're asking for. The manufacturers don't want to deal with the warranty and repair issues and the liability if someone gets injured from the light being used carelessly or if it breaks due to its inherent unreliability. So these are enthusiasts' lights which require extra care and attention to use properly, the opposite of idiot proofness. These lights are like top performance formula 1 race cars: they use technology that basically can't be made street legal, and even if it could, will still be unsafe in the hands of normal drivers and will constantly need maintenance attention from specialist mechanics. They are trying to solve a different problem than making an idiot proof light. The users have to be tolerant of issues and requirements that are rightly unacceptable to non-enthusiasts trying to use the lights for real purposes. If you really want a superbright light that size, better to use multiple LEDs and back off to 1k lumens or so. This is nicely in the range of many of the 7-Cree lights such as the Wolf-eyes Storm, Milky's SF M6 mod, etc.

Basic test of idiot proofness: turn on the light. Set it bezel downwards on a nice wood table and leave it running that way overnight. If it damages its battery pack from the deep discharge, or if it sets the table on fire or scorches it or suffers internal damage, it's not idiot proof. Even as a flashaholic I tend to prefer single cell LED lights because of reasons like this.

Then there is the eyesight issue, to which lux matters much more than lumens, and to which night vision is relevant. That 900 lumen highway floodlamp is making a lot less lux at 100' than a tiny hotwire bulb in a narrowly focused reflector pointed at a person. Basically I wouldn't take the opinions of any CPF'ers seriously on this subject unless they happen to be medical professionals. If something is making your eyes hurt, nature is trying to tell you something, and it's best to assume it's unsafe and what you're proposing is not so much more clever than putting live ammo into the paintball guns.

Also, the simplest upgrade to a magcharger is just replace the bulb with a WA 01160 with some thermal protection (mica disc) over the switch pedestal.


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## Northern Lights (Sep 29, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



paulr said:


> ...
> Also, the simplest upgrade to a magcharger is just replace the bulb with a WA 01160 with some thermal protection (mica disc) over the switch pedestal.


The next simplest is putting a 5761 into it. A MC is 6V. The WA 01160 is a hotwire by definition that it is overdriven.
The 5761 is rated at 6V, 765 bulb lumens by the manufacturer and that is more output than the 1160. BUT and this is why it is the next simplest, You would need to take a round grinding ball for a dremel type drill and enlarge the reflector hole for the 5761. It also draws 5.5 amps and reduces the run time. But it does simpley get the light out put up even at the specification voltage.


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## jimjones3630 (Sep 29, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

People can be sincere in their beliefs and sincerely wrong. other than my empirical experiences, I did ask if a light or laser could cause damage to human eye to my Ophthalmologist. 

He related cases he treated of laser mishaps, prolonged exposure to lasers. One a clerk who intensionally looked at the laser scaner too long resulting in head aches, and other sysmptoms. His opinion was no lasting damage results from laser beams to the eye.

Friend of mine worked the NASA laser global mapping project using high powered lasers bounceing off the moon and back to earth, that is bouncing off the crystal lens left on the moon, tells me he worked with a fellow who got flashed in the eye with lab laser loosing half of his field of vision in that eye. He today gets nervous when I showed him my laser.

So, even MD's can be mistaken.

My concern comes because I carry a hand held laser on search and rescue call outs.

Also, concerned to know if an alternative to lethal force is actually not only non lethal but also no lasting damage done. 

I would not want to scare people from using a non lethal means into use of something with lasting injury or to not use non lethal, non injurious means.

By all means become informed.


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## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 30, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Good point about the fire hazard Paul.

I was forced to consider that exact thing tonight when I went to see another security officer I had lent my WF-500 to for few days.

He and another fello had been sitting in their car, writing a IR when someone smelled smoke.

" Are you smoking?"
" No, you know I don't smoke."
" I smell smoke."
" Me too."
" I wonder what is on fire?"
" OOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW IT'S MY *** !!!!!"

well, he didn't get hurt badly but did manage to burn a decent hole in his BDU pants :twothumbs

Score 
WF-500 === 1 :naughty:
Pants ==== 0 

Soooo..... I suppose I should make sure that it isn't a light that will ignite leaves, ie. the forest, on fire if dropped.

maybe a 5761 for him too.........


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## Northern Lights (Sep 30, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



gratewhitehuntr said:


> Good point about the fire hazard Paul.
> 
> I was forced to consider that exact thing tonight when I went to see another security officer I had lent my WF-500 to for few days.
> 
> ...


Funny! But you are not alone:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2159289&postcount=12


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## gratewhitehuntr (Sep 30, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

yeah

might be a good time to take that extra can of OC out of your bag

God forbid the light be aimed right at it !!!

What kinda run time you get on that MC61 ???
My Sheriff buddy was asking me the other day about a mod.

and where do you get the mica to shield the tower ??

BTW, 

what is the absolute highest vbulb I can get away with with a 5761?

I think I'm gonna need a NTC....... had 7.0v after a 25 min run with ROP LO.
less than 30 seconds to rest before measured


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## Northern Lights (Sep 30, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

I 4x bored the MC by hand! Before I built my boring machine. I put 12 cells, 4x3, 6p3s of Maha Powerex AA 2700mAh NiMh cells into it for 7.2 volts 5400mAh battery pack. The bulb draws 5500 mAh. Maha under rates this particular cell so I actually get an hour run time. 
http://www.rechargeable-battery-rev...showdown-review.html#AANiMHBatteryPerformance
These as you can see are the best AA available, followed by Sanyo. They did insta flash one lot of 5761 so I put the NTC in the tail cap. You have to by pass the MC charger circuit in the cradle and wire in a 7.2 -12 or 12 -something smart charger. It helps to wire up the switch to reduce resistance I went as far as directly wiring the charging collars and not relying on the pressure contacts to reduce the internal resistace to the max.
Mica shields are common transistor insulators and can be had in packs from electronic supplies, you may have to drill the correct 4mm holes. I used them but have switched to ceramic blanket material, the same that I use under the reflector. i put a wad of that under the bulb. Have not melted the socket yet. In the MC the reflector has a plastic frame, I stuff that into the space between the frame and reflector and as I mentioned opened the refector hole.
Because you may find a variance in tolerances that meet the manufacturers specified voltage of a bulb when overdriving them you may find varialble limits especially as you approach the absolute limit. Some people have gotten away with 7.1 Vbulb with a soft start like NTC or driver and that is a stellar beam,white and full. Vbulb 6.9 seems to work well too and usually does not need a soft start until the bulb gets older, bulb life burns our the filament. 6.9 if a good number as most 5761 take it OK.
I know emoli cells have a weird nominal voltage of about 4.2 volts, a pair of them with an NTC and resistor may provide a steady Vbulb at 7.1. That is my next experiment, something to look froward to. To maintain a constant Vbulb you need some overhead voltage and a way to drop it to the desired Vbulb. Otherwise it you just make your desired Vbulb on direct drive, as your battery discharges you will naurally loose that edge, but that is how all lights direct drive works so it is no big deal.


----------



## Pyros (Oct 1, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



Northern Lights said:


> Shortly my 64430 will replace my other larger patrol light because of the 2k+ lumens.



Northern Lights, I'm extremely interested in the details of your 64430 build. So far I've put together an ROP and a Mag64, each from a 2D (my favorite form factor), and I've read your 5761 posts closely and am considering building one next. But a well-sorted 64430 sounds most intriguing...


----------



## Raoul_Duke (Oct 2, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



Northern Lights said:


> I 4x bored the MC by hand! Before I built my boring machine. I put 12 cells, 4x3, 6p3s of Maha Powerex AA 2700mAh NiMh cells into it for 7.2 volts 5400mAh battery pack. The bulb draws 5500 mAh. Maha under rates this particular cell so I actually get an hour run time.
> http://www.rechargeable-battery-rev...showdown-review.html#AANiMHBatteryPerformance
> These as you can see are the best AA available, followed by Sanyo. They did insta flash one lot of 5761 so I put the NTC in the tail cap. You have to by pass the MC charger circuit in the cradle and wire in a 7.2 -12 or 12 -something smart charger. It helps to wire up the switch to reduce resistance I went as far as directly wiring the charging collars and not relying on the pressure contacts to reduce the internal resistace to the max.
> Mica shields are common transistor insulators and can be had in packs from electronic supplies, you may have to drill the correct 4mm holes. I used them but have switched to ceramic blanket material, the same that I use under the reflector. i put a wad of that under the bulb. Have not melted the socket yet. In the MC the reflector has a plastic frame, I stuff that into the space between the frame and reflector and as I mentioned opened the refector hole.
> ...



Here is a discharge graph for Emoli cells.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11910&d=1148246211

They are only realy about 2600 to 2700mah, depending on currend draw. But you can pull 15 C ~ 45A on them. 

Looking at the graph though they drop below 3V on the 45A run, but I was told not to go lower than 3V.

When I run my set up as soon as the lamp yellows I stop and the cells measured straight away read 2.9- 3V

After a few minutes they have risen to around 3.2- 3.3V

I have heard from CPF member icantsee that two emoli in a 3C instaflashed the 5761, but the Rop hight held up ok. I dont think the cells were fully charged to 4.2V though.

In my 6C with 4 emoli I have a Kiu socket and tailcap resistance fix and I recently instaflashed the 64623 with the cells charged up to around 4.15V each to give a total of around 16.6V on the pack. The lower Watt lamps ( 20 ~50W 12V lamps) dont seem to have an instaflash risk and I use them to discharge the cells a bit for the 623.

Its the first instflash I have had as I usually take the cells up to around 4.1V. I think they come of my charger at around 4.18V and settle to around 4.14 or 4.15V

Its weird but each time I charge them they seem to get a bit higher each time, only charged about 4 - 5 times so far.

They are quit a tight fit, although I have heard they fit in some c mags with the card wrapper on, but in my mags ( 6and 7C, so they are the older design C, but stll with a C in the serial number) I have to use realy realy realy realy ( you get the Idea) thin parcel tape to insulate them, hardly any overlapping; I also pull the switch cover aside to allow the air out so that they slide in, otherwise there is to much presure built up to get them in quickly, So definatly tight fitting in my C's so far.

Still you could easily get 2 in a 2D with the card wrapper still on if you prefer that over a 3C.

Emoli cells ar very cool, I like the low, or no self discharge, High drain capacitys and li-ion type voltages, and If I had a good charger I could charge them at a very high rate around 15C I seem to remember, although I hear 1 to 1.5C ( from memory) is optimal from silverfox; The down side is no low cut of cuircuit & I worry I might damage them if I drain them past 3V Thats where the A123 are cool as they can be run flat, but they requre a specific charger to get the best results.

Oh and If you take the card wrapper off be carefull. My son disturbed ( fiddled with) one of my earlier "gheto" chargers while I was in the next room. and somehow got the +ve charging contact to short across the +ve terminal and the can (-ve) that comes right to the top of the cell. ( the card wrapper goes some way to prevent this)

The result was a BIG bang & flash and it melted the +ve contact of the charger. He was only 3 at the time, and didnt have many words to describe it other than fire and yellow. He looked quite impressed and exited when I ran in the room, I on the other hand aged about 10 years in a few seconds.


----------



## Northern Lights (Oct 2, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

WOW!. Lots of good information, thank you! I have shorted A123 and know what you mean about Bang.
I charge the A123 on a BC-6. What a versitle charger, all chemistries, all lithiums and you can charge in many modes, balance, quick, series, etc. I replaced about 6 chargers just with it.
Would you charge an emoli a the lipo setting, 3.7 nominal or Li-ion at the 3.6?


----------



## jimjones3630 (Oct 2, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

+1 on A123 shorts.

picked up a tip recently on "shoe horning" tight cells. spray battery pak with silicone spray, picked up can from auto parts store and it works.

final fix will be spending more time with my new best friend, Mr. brake hone.


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## martonic (Oct 2, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

I've got a 14.4 Volt CBP battery pack. Is there a good 20 to 50 W bulb available for a [email protected] mod using this?


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## Raoul_Duke (Oct 2, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



Northern Lights said:


> Would you charge an emoli a the lipo setting, 3.7 nominal or Li-ion at the 3.6?



Hmmm. :thinking:

dont know. I was told buy the Guy at www.bigererc.com ( thats where I bought them, but he doesnt sell them anymore, but I hear they can be salvaged from a dewalt batterypack) that I could use a li-ion charger. so initially I used a DSD charger with the tabs bent out on one of the 17670 chanels to charge, with the cell ontop, but very slow, and the DSD soom failed with a nice melting smell. I didn't bother to investigate, knowing DSD's are pants, and this was my second DSD to fail, I dont think they like the UK's 240V mains supply.

shown here in the picture.
]



I now use this with extra tabs added to fit the emoli.
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=167839

One of these however doesn't shut of at 4.2 ( around 4.25 - 4.28 from memory) So thats probably not good for the cells.

dont know much about Lipo so thas something I will need to look into.

Oh and I was talking nonsence on the charging rates. Below is a copied PM between myself and silverfox.


I suppose the main questions from this is What type of cell did he tell the Schulze it was charging, and also what colour or type of C mag was he trying the cells in ie was there a "C" prefix to the serial number in the serial number or not. Oh , and max charging rate for the emoli was to be 9A or 3C.

The posts work back to front BTW so read from the bottom up.



Hello James,

Charging Li-Ion cells involves using a CC/CV algorithm. You charge with a Constant Current until the cell reaches 4.2 volts, then you hold a Constant Voltage and gradually reduce the current. When the current drops to around 0.05C, you terminate the charge.

When you charger at high currents, the voltage jumps up quickly and you spend a lot of time in the CV portion of the charge at reduced currents.

For example, if you charge at 2C, you may find that the CC portion of the charge only lasts 2 minutes. Then the voltage is held constant and the current drops off. On the other hand, charging at 1C may have you in the CC portion of the charge for 30 minutes. 

Please note that this applies when you are going for a full charge. If you are only interested in 80% of the charge, then higher charge rates are faster. The transition between CC and CV occurs at around 70 - 80%.

The ideal charge rate is around 0.8C. Sometimes you can gain a little time by charging up to 2C, but the gains are not substantial. Above 2C is for bragging rights, and when you are not interested in a full charge, but need some power right now.

Understand that I am using the Schulze charger. There may be differences with other chargers, and there are differences when charging other brands of cells. I have some Sanyo cells, that I am testing right now, where the fastest charging rate works out to 1.5C.

Tom



Quote:
Originally Posted by Raoul_Duke 
You mentioned that charging at 2 amps resulted in the shortest charging time. How is that faster than 3A, these things can take a 3C charge, prehaps a bit gung ho at ~9A though, but as you probably realise from my first post I dont have the full picture...yet 


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverFox 
Hello James,

I took the cell with its cardboard wrapper and it easily dropped into my C cell MagLite.

I wouldn't say that there are no problems running unprotected, but will say that they are more forgiving. You can still ruin your cells through neglect, but they probably won't catch on fire.

The 1 amp is the load I start the discharge tests with. I have found that the quickest charge rate is charging at 2 amps. I have tested charging at 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, and 3 amps, and using 2 amps for charging results in the shortest charge time.

I am now into the 2 amp load tests, and they are as good as the 1 amp load tests were.

Tom



Quote:
Originally Posted by Raoul_Duke 
When you say they fit in a "C" cell body, do you have anything wrapped on them, or are they bare.

I'm assuming from what I have read, there will be no problems running these unprotected?

1 Amp seems a slow charge for these. Do you think faster charging , i think max is 3C, will decrease the cells usable life?

thanks for the info.
James.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverFox 
Hello James,

I am working on them right now.

They are a little bigger than Duracell C cells, but not much. They fit into a C cell body, but not into the tail cap recess.

I am using a Schulze isl 6-330d to charge them, and highly recommend it.

So far all I can tell you is that they handle 1 amp without any problems...

Tom



Quote:
Originally Posted by Raoul_Duke 
Did you get a chance to check ou the emoli cells that were sent to you buy "icantsee" yet?


From what I hear from Icantsee they com wrapped in cardboard, he had to strip this off to get in a c cell, but it was a tight fit and the cells were bare, althouth he said he found some thin tape, so I will be lookin for something thin to wrap them into as I dont like the idea of just relying on the anodise on the inside of the mag body.

Also do you think you could recomend a charger.
I could realy use somehelp here. I find all the charger suff a whole subject in itself, and have only realy been focusing on how I am going to build.


----------



## Raoul_Duke (Oct 2, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



martonic said:


> I've got a 14.4 Volt CBP battery pack. Is there a good 20 to 50 W bulb available for a [email protected] mod using this?



Any of the lamps in the pic above ( click on the thumbnail to enlarge the picture, and then click on the picture in the new window to zoom in more) Will work with that pack. Sorry dont have the pictures to hand at the moment, but you will need a kiu socket to run them.


----------



## Raoul_Duke (Oct 2, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

ooops double post.


----------



## martonic (Oct 2, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



Raoul_Duke said:


> Any of the lamps in the pic above ( click on the thumbnail to enlarge the picture, and then click on the picture in the new window to zoom in more) Will work with that pack. Sorry dont have the pictures to hand at the moment, but you will need a kiu socket to run them.


Thanks. I've got the socket. Have a mod that came with the pack and some 75W Westinghouse bulbs, but I'm wondering how much I can increase the runtime without sacrificing much, if any, brightness?


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## Raoul_Duke (Oct 2, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*



martonic said:


> Thanks. I've got the socket. Have a mod that came with the pack and some 75W Westinghouse bulbs, but I'm wondering how much I can increase the runtime without sacrificing much, if any, brightness?



Well acording to the emoli graph my cells are about 2750mAh at 9A and 2800mah at 3 amps so we'll say 2775mah at best guess.

The 20W lamp runs at 5a and less as the cells decrease their charge.

So 2.775 Ah / ( divided by) 5A ( lamp current draw) x (times) 60 (minutes) = 33.3 minutes gives a ball park figure. Seems pretty acurate from what I've experienced.


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## jimjones3630 (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

some bulbs for 14.4v Osram 100w 62138, 50w64610 are my favorites. 100w 64623 was a popular bulb in 14.4v paks, looks too yellow for my tastes. shows differences in batchs as I ran 64623 on bench up to 17v at the pins.


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## jimjones3630 (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

A123 cells are in Dewalt 36v battery packs-10 cells

Emoli cells are in MILWAUKEE V28 *28 VOLT LI-ION BATTERY* MODEL 48-11-2830-7 cells


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## Raoul_Duke (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Whoops. your right, 

Maybee this will help people to get Emoli cells as from what I understand they are not being offered for individual resale anymore, and only go to the manufacture of these packs.

Still this link shows how to deconstruct the pack, Which is good, as they work out cheeper this way.

http://www.swift-tuning.com/emoli.pdf


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## Raoul_Duke (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

I know that it may seem that I'm going of on a tangent with these Emoli cells, But I think they will provide the least tinker factor for a 2000 lumen set up. ( and above, if you wanted to go brighter.)

They dont self discharge, tough as hell steel case (popular with the RC croud as when they crash their planes the emoli cells survive unscathed, where as lipo burn.)
They have fairly good capacity, Godd current draw capability, 
Cheap if you pull them out of a pack, 
and you can use any li-ion charger for them

As I mentioned I run 4 at the minute ( in a 6 which are hard to come by) with a bunch of different 12V lamps.

4 emoli add up to 280mm in length.

A 4 D mag should take 4 x 65mm cell, I think, so It might be possible to get 4 in a 4D mag ( i dont know the exact internal dimention, but wit the removal of the tail spring, and deanodising the tail cap they just might fit. 
Some modification of the switch may have to be done, but I would use the switch as a base for the Kiu socket and add a higher current switch and then you will easily be able to fit them in. the D sized body will mean you dont have to remove the cerd wrapper, and thats probably a good idea.

But after all that prehaps a 4D is a bit big to stick on a paintball gun, but I think 2000 lumens will have quite a big host, unless you want to use nimh cells, and then you dont have much of a runtime ( around 10 minutes, verses double that with emoli. with comparable voltages.) 

Still, I went paint balling a few weeks ago, and I think you could mount a 4D to one of the guns I used, they were light weight, and a 4 D would not be as long as they are, and with 3000 lumens ( or less depending on your prefered lamp to increase runtime) pumping out the front would definatley be an advantage.

I doubt it would have stopped me getting shot in the nuts 4 times though ~ ouch~ 

For a smaller mod the 4C with 3 A123's, that Jim Jones made, sounds sweet.


----------



## jimjones3630 (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

James, thanks for the link. Looks so easier than taking apart Dewalt paks.

have bought some emolis and once tested to determine condition plan to put excess on B/S/T.

has been said here befor need some overhead volts because of sag on start up then enough left to meet max vbulb setting. 5761 with 5.5A and 2xA123 sags 0.28v on start up with 6.68vbat and 6.4vbulb. No NTC or resistor needed. the 64430 or 56580 tungsram and 3xA123 had 10.03vbat, 9.45vbulb. runs well on dircet drive. Still looking how to increase volts to the pins. close to a full 2 volts need reduction to run 56580 on 3xemoli 12.6v. will be interesting.




Raoul_Duke said:


> Whoops. your right,
> 
> Maybee this will help people to get Emoli cells as from what I understand they are not being offered for individual resale anymore, and only go to the manufacture of these packs.
> 
> ...


----------



## jimjones3630 (Oct 8, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

regarding size 3D is shorter that 4C by couple mm. To run 3xA123 in 4C needed one AW C extenders and his deep tailcap making over all length about 4-5mm longer than 3D. 3xA123 in 3D weight less than 8xAA Ni Mhs in 2D. 

Have 3 emolis now in 4C with 64610 50w, 12.6v on fresh charge making for some nice run times, with 1190torch lumens out the window is bright.


----------



## gratewhitehuntr (Oct 31, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

So I was so inspired by all this talk about Emoli cells, and was SO underwhelmed by the 5761 (and the fact that my 6 D cells would burn one even if rested for 3-5 days) and the weight that I decided to get some.

Well they arrived along with my new IRC 35w and 64623 bulbs.

Some E tape and paper towel later I had a super light sleeve 
(no rattle !!:twothumbs) 
and made the dummy from more paper towel, tin foil, dryer cord gauge copper wire wrapped in a spiral, and a bunch more tin foil all wadded up and then put inside a cylinder of proper diameter and compressed from one end with a 3lb hammer and 13/16 socket.

The sleeve and dummy weigh almost nothing. 
Sleeve I weighed on my reloading scale at less than 1oz and the dummy more like 2oz.

MY 6D feels like a 3D !!! :twothumbs

and boy does she swing 

I tried the 35w IRC first.

It's OK... not stunning (unless a normal mag is your point of reference)
but bright and throws a nice spot.
At 16v it was much whiter than I had heard people talk about, even down at 13-14v area I wasn't bothered TOO much by the color.

So I decided to try the 64623 for a while.

The guy standing next to me said, and I quote, " WOW  !!"

Very impressive to be sure.

It may be a little much for the apartment complexes I work in though so it's back to the 35w IRC until I get my paws on a 50w IRC and or a 65w IRC.

I may just stop at 50w due to heat.

I also added a nippled (not sure of the real word, studded perhaps?) rubber grip sleeve from a China I had laying about and it not only improves the grip, it improves your willingness to hold onto the light !!

That 64623 at 15-15.5v sure cranks out the heat !!!

To summarize, 
I put 4 Emoli cells and a 12 volt bulb in my big red 6D and it now weighs the same as a 3D and puts out the power of several car headlights (several being 3-5) for roughly (just the numbers I've read here)
60 mins on the 35w IRC, 
39 minutes on the 50w IRC, 
or something like 20 on the 64623 (more than you want to run it anyway)

AND the balance point is exactly 5 inches behind the switch cover point so it swings like a dream (and weighs 1 1/2 pounds less) and is easy on the wrist.

I'm working with speaker wire of small diameter and a car battery (everyone has one right?) to get enough resistance that the voltage sags to 8v-ish until the cell is full and then crawls up some.

I managed to charge them last night in under 5 mins and brought them right up to 8.5 in a pack of two, rigged them to my L-ion charger and it charged for about 20 sec and said they were full.

I know 8.5 is too high but 
I swapped meters half way through and that's what caught it for me.

I thought the first one was low and I was right.
I tried to measure amp draw with my big Sears engine analyzer but for some reason it didn't happen.

I'll try again soon.

Taking it trick-or-treating tonight with the kid.
I'm going as the kid who is too old to t-o-t. :laughing:

NO really I'm going as Security.
That's what I've been for the last 3 years (working that night).

One night I grabbed a kid and asked which houses had good candy, then we went and hit them again.
" But Mister, I already went there."
" Yeah but you are with a totally different person now and they will just think you are a different kid with the same costume on."
" Yeah, that's a good idea !!"
" Duh, you think you're the only one with a Spiderman costume tonight? Let's go get some candy!"


----------



## jimjones3630 (Oct 31, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Just an update, got 3xA123 to fit 4C with only a tailcap mod. no extension needed. Opened up the cap wall diameter so would slide over the battery. Also could have shorted stock switch and moved it forward if needed.

Jim



jimjones3630 said:


> regarding size 3D is shorter that 4C by couple mm. To run 3xA123 in 4C needed one AW C extenders and his deep tailcap making over all length about 4-5mm longer than 3D. 3xA123 in 3D weight less than 8xAA Ni Mhs in 2D.
> 
> Have 3 emolis now in 4C with 64610 50w, 12.6v on fresh charge making for some nice run times, with 1190torch lumens out the window is bright.


----------



## jimjones3630 (Oct 31, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Shaun, congratulations again on your mod. Like to see that guys face when lit up the night.
Jim



gratewhitehuntr said:


> So I was so inspired by all this talk about Emoli cells, and was SO underwhelmed by the 5761 (and the fact that my 6 D cells would burn one even if rested for 3-5 days) and the weight that I decided to get some.
> 
> Well they arrived along with my new IRC 35w and 64623 bulbs.
> 
> ...


----------



## Raoul_Duke (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

nice one mate.

4 emoli is a good base for loads of the 12V lamps, I have tried a 20W ozram and 50W generic lamp, and a 75W westwing lamp, and they all offer a good ballance between brighness runtime and heat. The 20W whilst not in the same league as the 100W provides a great runtime verses output verses heat, so it would be good for a consistant run.

One thing to not is that emoli are not supposed to be taken below 3V ( is far as I know thats just sitting there unloaded) and I noticed real drop in output so I pulled the cells and measured them, and they were 3V and 2.9V, but alll the cells voltages rebounded to 3.3V within a minute or so, so I guess the rule of thum is when you see the first signs of dimming stop, if you see conciderable dimming you have gone 0.1V, or so, too far.

Interested on how you charged your cells on the car batt, Sounds brutal on the cells. how did you do it? I'm not quite following you. I think the Emoli can charge at 9A from memory, although 2A was said to be optimal, for time, verses gined capacity, I will have to check.

The 6D, as you know will hold 5 emoli, I have yet to see about other lamps running on 5 emoli other than the 64458, but that is a beast, and is brighter than the 64623 on 4 emoli, ( hard to see at this high output btw) but there is more spill. Not sure if the 458 is less hot than the 623, as the 623 was in a 6C and the 458 in a 6D, but I will compare in the same light this time home, and check, the 623 in the 6C gets hot quick, thats for sure. I wonder if its the 6D has different sized bell, and body maybee it handles the heat better than the 6C.

But I think the 20W, 50W and 75W may handel 5 emoli cells. They are the lamps I use to drain off the "hot" nimh packs if I want to run the 623 on them, the 623 instaflashes on hot nimh packs over 18.5V resting, in my experiences, ( < 17V I have read on bench testing has flashed 623, so my >18.5V packs must sag under load, and have some resistance in the cuircuit. ) So I think there is a good chance the lower watt lamps, I have near emough all of the ozrams and some others from 20W up and the IRC ones yet to test at home, with long lamp life might like 5 emoli. 

I will give the 50W one a test first when I get home, as I have a bunch of them.

As far as runtimes go, I was working on 2.750(mah) ( thats what emolis are supposed to have at 9A discharge, divide buy the 10A current draw ( gets less as voltage drops) x (times) 60 ( minutes) gives 16.5 minutes. I have never done a consistant run to check as to hot, and I was having to much fun to time it. So that gives a ball park figure, but I think the cells probably have less cappacity in real life ( slightly) and the current draw and voltages drop during the run, so it is not an accurate guestimation + resistance may change things. 

Interstingly enough In comparison tests I have driven along on country roads, and used my 64623 6C to light up the road, and knocked of my cr lights for a few seconds, and it makes a hell of a good driving light, Definatley brighter and whiter than my cars full beam 





gratewhitehuntr said:


> So I was so inspired by all this talk about Emoli cells, and was SO underwhelmed by the 5761 (and the fact that my 6 D cells would burn one even if rested for 3-5 days) and the weight that I decided to get some.
> 
> Well they arrived along with my new IRC 35w and 64623 bulbs.
> 
> ...


----------



## petrev (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Hi

IRC-50 and IRC-65 both work great with 5x E-Moli.

See Most Powerful Thread
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/155998&page=8

from #229 onwards

Cheers Pete


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## Raoul_Duke (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Oh yeah, That post you made stating that they did work, and then my reply right underneath it 

Doh, to much hotwire info buzzing round my head :duh2:

Time to get another emoli cell gratewhitehuntr :twothumbs:

So how do you think your buddys paintball gun will look with a 6D mounted on it? 

Maybe it would function better with just a head mounted on the light and a bandolier of emoli slung round his sholder :thumbsup:


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## gratewhitehuntr (Nov 2, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Actually we were talking about trying to add a Mofset with a blue tooth reciever to make it work in unision with the trigger, or at least a pressure switch.

It may be very possible and even easy to do and I think it would add immensly to the usability of the weapon.

Man I can't spell whn I drink.... all the words are lighted in red and feel like I'm in church...

I'm liking the A123 X2 idea and run a 5761 or perhaps a 64138 (or 625) and Emoli X3

Either way I will be putting it together and get to keep the left over parts  He can't use a whole pack worth of batteries can he? (hello, extra Emoli anyone? he hehe)

We were just going to buy a light from someone but NiMH is heavy and it looks like I can finally put stuff together (without burning bulbs)


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## jimjones3630 (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

64655 24v probable work with rested 5XEmoli, it flashed on the bench for me just over 26vIIRC. 
458 at 21vbulb instantly ignited paper on the bench. 64623 max around 17vbulb my bet is on 458 being hotter esp..around 21v.

My auto lights are at a disadvantage to my flashlights, there are only 35wlow beam.



Raoul_Duke said:


> nice one mate.
> The 6D, as you know will hold 5 emoli, I have yet to see about other lamps running on 5 emoli other than the 64458, but that is a beast, and is brighter than the 64623 on 4 emoli, ( hard to see at this high output btw) but there is more spill. Not sure if the 458 is less hot than the 623, as the 623 was in a 6C and the 458 in a 6D, but I will compare in the same light this time home, and check, the 623 in the 6C gets hot quick, thats for sure. I wonder if its the 6D has different sized bell, and body maybee it handles the heat better than the 6C.
> 
> Interstingly enough In comparison tests I have driven along on country roads, and used my 64623 6C to light up the road, and knocked of my cr lights for a few seconds, and it makes a hell of a good driving light, Definatley brighter and whiter than my cars full beam


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## Raoul_Duke (Nov 7, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Drunk as a Mofo skunk, hope you can appreciate and deal with this, a s I have just got back, from a two week trip inthe middle of the sea with my crew

Love the way your posts pop up out of the blue Jim, I think 6 emoli............looking forward to reiving some goddies from you , FM ,lux and a few more, to take this to the next level, hopefully not under the influence of stella ( google it its good Sh!t)

APPRECIAE IT ALL. 

Lolking forawrd to the 64566 etc.... Priobabley time to pass out nowe ......word.


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## jimjones3630 (Nov 7, 2007)

*Re: Wanted: 2,000 lumen M*g Mod -- MUST BE IDIOT PROOF -- LOW " TINKER FACTOR"*

Well I hate being predictable. Got a notice today of order shipment.

I my youth I held a US Coast Guard certification as Tankerman, going up and down the inland waterways in one big tug boat mate. I think might understand your postion.

Tell me James, can you make a money fist? One of the hardest things for me.
Jim



Raoul_Duke said:


> Drunk as a Mofo skunk, hope you can appreciate and deal with this, a s I have just got back, from a two week trip inthe middle of the sea with my crew
> 
> Love the way your posts pop up out of the blue Jim, I think 6 emoli............looking forward to reiving some goddies from you , FM ,lux and a few more, to take this to the next level, hopefully not under the influence of stella ( google it its good Sh!t)
> 
> ...


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