# WTB: Looking For Someone To Make A Full Knurl 6/4 Twisty.



## bmstrong (Mar 17, 2012)

Drop a PM if interested.


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## bmstrong (Mar 18, 2012)

Anyone? Silence. 

How about something like the old E1E in Titanium?


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## arewethereyetdad (Mar 18, 2012)

Thought you wanted a twisty.


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## bmstrong (Mar 19, 2012)

arewethereyetdad said:


> Thought you wanted a twisty.



I'd like both. I have the cash for both sitting, not that it's helped.


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## Henk_Lu (Mar 20, 2012)

Perhaps Mac could do you a Knurly EDC if you ask him?

No twisty though...


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## monkeyboy (Mar 20, 2012)

Try contacting Photonfanatic (Fred). This is exactly the sort of thing he does.


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## Moddoo (Mar 20, 2012)

PM sent


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## PhotonFanatic (Mar 20, 2012)

monkeyboy said:


> Try contacting Photonfanatic (Fred). This is exactly the sort of thing he does.



Alas, I would not be able to fully knurl 6AL4V Titanium--my machine isn't large enough, nor do I have the proper tooling.


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## bmstrong (Mar 20, 2012)

Moddoo said:


> PM sent



Dropped you an email with the whole nine yards.


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## bmstrong (Mar 20, 2012)

Henk_Lu said:


> Perhaps Mac could do you a Knurly EDC if you ask him?
> 
> No twisty though...



Already done weeks ago. Unfortunately that's not going to happen.


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## precisionworks (Mar 21, 2012)

bmstrong said:


> Anyone? Silence.


 A few reasons for the lack of response ...

There are many machining operations for which Ti works well - outside turning, profiling, milling, etc. On the other end of the list are deep drilling, tapping & (you guessed it) knurling. IMO knurling is even more difficult that deep hole drilling. Many machinists have one or two form knurl tools like the one shown below:







The orange arrow points to the steel axle pin around which the knurl wheel rotates. These have inadequate strength for Ti work & are replaced with solid carbide pins. Even with that mod it is extraordinarily difficult to cause Ti-6-4 to cold flow into the knurl wheels. A much better tool (and one owned by a few machinists on CPF) is the cut knurler shown below:






Lower machining forces mean a greater likelihood of a satisfactory result. If someone runs this tool all day every day it's easy to get great results in Ti-6-4. If this tool is used once or twice a week the set up time is a killer - figure at least an hour's labor plus quite a few inches of bar stock at $8 USD/inch. Figure the cost of the cut knurl tool at $1000 USD & you can see where this is going.

Even if all that tooling & experience is already in place (& it is not in my shop) the body has to be knurled while the bar stock is solid, before it is bored for the battery. A knurled surface looks good & feels good but is far less than perfect for the next machining operation.

There's someone who'll make this for you. Rough guess is that the cost of a full knurl light is twice that of any other surface profile 



> Try contacting Photonfanatic (Fred). This is exactly the sort of thing he does.


Fred would be my first choice but he already said his machine isn't set up for this. If I had the cut knurl tool I'd be happy to knurl the bar stock & send it on to Fred or anyone else who whoud finish the build but a $1000 USD specialty tool isn't in my budget.

I don't have CNC equipment but some machinists have had success using a 4-axis mill for helical interpolation to generate the pattern. Imagine a pair of helix profiles that meet at the correct angle to make the pattern. Cost effective if you need 50 parts or more :nana:


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## Obijuan Kenobe (Mar 21, 2012)

Now THAT is an answer. 

obi


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## precisionworks (Mar 21, 2012)

Obijuan Kenobe said:


> Now THAT is an answer.
> 
> obi


LOL 

I'm just now on the 4th cup of coffee & you are probably finishing your lunch.


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## KuKu427 (Mar 22, 2012)

How many units are we talking about?


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## bmstrong (Mar 22, 2012)

KuKu427 said:


> How many units are we talking about?



Just one. But I'm absolutely positive if you put something out there people will line up to buy it.


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## Midnight Run (Mar 22, 2012)

I'll second that!


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## egrep (Mar 22, 2012)

Keep up the pressure. I'd be willing to take 2x faucet handles if they had KuKuKnurling! The thing to think about is M.O.Q.


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## KuKu427 (Mar 22, 2012)

bmstrong said:


> Just one. But I'm absolutely positive if you put something out there people will line up to buy it.


What did you have in mind?
I know you said twisty, and are probably thinking small EDC, but I've been itching to do one of these.







Lots of surface area to cover up with this




Using drop-ins would mean I can just concentrate on the shell.
P/C/Z would help with meeting MOQ.



egrep said:


> Keep up the pressure. I'd be willing to take 2x faucet handles if they had KuKuKnurling! The thing to think about is M.O.Q.


Bet you didn't know someone in my team does bathroom fixtures did ya? :nana:


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## egrep (Mar 22, 2012)

KuKu427 said:


> Bet you didn't know someone in my team does bathroom fixtures did ya? :nana:



 I'd like the cold water faucet with blue trits & hot water faucet with red trits. Can i get a spoked ring of 20 trits in a rainbow pattern for the drain plug? Oh, and for the commode handle, yellow trits. :naughty:


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## KuKu427 (Mar 22, 2012)

egrep said:


> I'd like the cold water faucet with blue trits & hot water faucet with red trits. Can i get a spoked ring of 20 trits in a rainbow pattern for the drain plug? Oh, and for the commode handle, yellow trits. :naughty:


LOL, I see him tonight for Thud testing. I'll bring it up.


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## precisionworks (Mar 23, 2012)

KuKu427 said:


> Bet you didn't know someone in my team does bathroom fixtures did ya? :nana:



Put me down for the Hot & Cold water handles 

Good image that clearly shows how the outside was first turned on a lathe or machining center & the V-grooves were machined into the surface. Really interesting that the V-shape is asymmetrical. Arrow on left shows a nearly vertical face while arrow on right point to a slanted face:


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## rda1 (Mar 23, 2012)

precisionworks said:


> Good image that clearly shows how the outside was first turned on a lathe or machining center & the V-grooves were machined into the surface. Really interesting that the V-shape is asymmetrical. Arrow on left shows a nearly vertical face while arrow on right point to a slanted face:



Or they are perfectly symmetrical and it is the angle of the picture.


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## PhotonFanatic (Mar 23, 2012)

rda1 said:


> Or they are perfectly symmetrical and it is the angle of the picture.



Probably symmetrical, would need a 90-degree photo to be sure.

However, those are still not full-form knurls. :devil:


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## KuKu427 (Mar 23, 2012)

PhotonFanatic said:


> However, those are still not full-form knurls. :devil:


LOL personal preference 
bmstrong... come to the half side:devil:

Foggy weather tonight!


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## bmstrong (Mar 24, 2012)

This is what I've been after for the last 5 years. I have a Drafts folder that I keep everything in, this is the longest running item I've wanted, and I've been on the CPF since 02. I think almost every custom builder has gotten a PM from me in some way, shape or form containing a variation of this. I'm going to use a couple of lights, past and current, as examples to better illustrate what I want. 

Body and Head: Full knurl 6/4 titanium in Bead or Sand Blast. The closest I can find, currently produced, is exactly like Mac's current Knurly clickie offering. You know the design. I first encountered it with the Larry Light, then Doug's Firefly, then the Aeon and the Nautilus. You could ever go full knurl from head to toe. Aggressive is fine, grip is what I like. I work around water and dirt and mud. The design must be waterproof to a point. Lake Erie is a fickle mistress.

Head: I favor a classic shape, again see Mac's Knurly, with NO FRONT BEZEL, and a sapphire lens for durability. I understand there is a loss of lumen's using this instead of mineral or something else. 

Tail: It must tail stand. The best design I've ever used was the old Arc AA. Simple to make, secure and can fit a full sized Titanium Spilt Ring. In the middle of the tail, on the underside, I would like a Trit installed. This is particularly important to me, since I've learned how valuable a Trit vial can be in a light. I prefer bright Trit's over the "cool" looking blue's and red's. 

Length: I prefer small lights, so much so that I want the design to be compact width and length wise. No need for extra flourishes, designs or extra big bezels or thick walls or frivolous tails. Keep it simple and short.

Optional Pocket Clip: I prefer McGizmo titanium pocket clips and Titanium screws. That said, with the nature of the size and design it can be tricky. I'm just throwing it out there.

Driver and LED: I defer to you, save for one non-negotiable point: It must accept everything CR123 and RCR123. I don't care what brand and voltage, garbage battery or premium brand. I've got to be able to pop whatever in there at any moments notice and it'll work. Two minor things:

I prefer a HIGH/MEDIUM/LOW but can be talked into a two stage, if it's simpler and more reliable.

I favor run time and efficiency over crazy output and eyeball searing light with neutral tints. I will pay more for a better BIN LED.

Mad Scientist Idea or Heatsink: I favor using the body, itself, but I have always wanted someone to use a slug of pure .999 Silver. I'm curious as to what it would do with the highest thermal conductivity.

I'm happy to listen to your feedback. My needs and wants are different from others.


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## precisionworks (Mar 24, 2012)

bmstrong said:


> This is what I've been after for the last 5 years. I have a Drafts folder that I keep everything in, this is the longest running item I've wanted, and I've been on the CPF since 02. I think almost every custom builder has gotten a PM from me in some way, shape or form containing a variation of this. I'm going to use a couple of lights, past and current, as examples to better illustrate what I want.
> 
> Body and Head: Full knurl 6/4 titanium in Bead or Sand Blast. The closest I can find, currently produced, is exactly like Mac's current Knurly clickie offering. You know the design. I first encountered it with the Larry Light, then Doug's Firefly, then the Aeon and the Nautilus. You could ever go full knurl from head to toe. Aggressive is fine, grip is what I like. I work around water and dirt and mud. The design must be waterproof to a point. Lake Erie is a fickle mistress.
> 
> ...



As I often say when asked about a custom machining job "Anything is possible with an unlimited budget" :devil:

Get 25 or 50 people to sign on & the cost is reasonable (as in McGizmo pricing). Build a one off & the Spy 007 or Tri-V will look inexpensive.


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## mohanjude (Mar 24, 2012)

I am going to share my experience with a couple of machinist. Having had fun drilling fins and then cutting and milling the trit slots I thought I would go and make a couple of Ti tubes for the sunwayman V. Rather than take Sunwaymans Ti tube and rearrange the grooves why not start with blanks so I had a free reign so to speak.

I went to the first shop - I call these guys the whining machinist. Everything is complicated, expensive. Every sentence starts with 'It will cost you a lot of money' - we charge GBP 35 an hour and this kind of job will take x hours so unless you are going to be making 5000 you are looking at a lot of money brigade. I was told I need to get a drawing which the engineer will charge GBP 150.

So I went to my friendly local guy who I thought might be able to help. I only wanted him to point me in the right direction as he is flat out with work. Due to his busy shedule I didn't want to trouble him. He is what I consider anything possible guy always says " nah that's not difficult - this is how it is done" 

He got his calipers out started measuring my Sunwayman and then went on his PC and within 30 mins produced a drawing. When I looked at him with amazement he said - shall I show you how easy it is to program this on the CNC lathe. Several dozen lines later the programming done. I learnt what a G76 command was...

I shot around to my house and promptly returned with the Titanium bar stock. I wanted him to make me some tubes when he was free. To cut a long story short each tube took 3 minutes each side - flip over and it took another 3 minutes on the CNC. Within 1 hour I had 7 blanks in my hand. All we need to do is design the surface. I then asked about knurling..... he said not a problem but would have preferred to do it before the tube was bored out.

What I want you guys who are out there struggling to mod your torches and make custom designs is to learn from my experience. Go and find a machinist who knows what he is doing and is confident with there abilities. They will machine you anything quickly and without a fuss. It doesnt need to cost a lot of money. People who put you off by saying it will take x hours and $$$$ are either not interested in doing your work or don't want to think about how to approach the issue. They have either suffer from a lack of ability or pre-occupy themselves by demanding expensive tools, processes and always require unnecessary steps. They take pleassure in throwing obstacles and delaying work.

The first shop I went and had my poor experience (I will never walk again into) is what I call "*Theoretical whining machinists*" Stay away from them - they crush your enthusiasm and creativity. When you finally find that machinist who is helpful and likes a challenge look after them. They will make this hobby fun and give you endless possibilites to create your own.


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## KuKu427 (Mar 25, 2012)

bmstrong said:


> My needs and wants are different from others.


5 years...  I see what you mean. 
My machine shop would need volume before they are willing to take this on.
If we don't get volume, would you be willing to consider having someone else doing the machining? 
Let's kick this ball around till we figure something out.

This is what I can do at a 1 piece level
I have a driver package coming in a couple of months or so that I can adapt to a twisty designs and get you full cr123/li ion support. 3 stage should be okay, 2 stage definitely doable. Output is adjustable to your needs before assembly.
LED bin... Whatever is commercially available.
Mule? I prefer TIR and I have a few on hand that might work.
Sapphire is no problem and I have a few spare pieces in sizes similar to what you are talking about. 
Tritium... check. :devil:
Pocket clip... the size and config don't lend itself well to clips, but I have Ti screws on order...


Silver... IMO copper is better as it does have an edge in thermal capacity.




mohanjude said:


> So I went to my friendly local guy who I thought might be able to help. I only wanted him to point me in the right direction as he is flat out with work. Due to his busy shedule I didn't want to trouble him. He is what I consider anything possible guy always says " nah that's not difficult - this is how it is done"


:thumbsup: Got a name?


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## mohanjude (Mar 25, 2012)

KuKu427 said:


> :thumbsup: Got a name?


 His name is Andy..


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## precisionworks (Mar 25, 2012)

Originally Posted by *mohanjude*





So I went to my friendly local guy who I thought might be able to help. I only wanted him to point me in the right direction as he is flat out with work. Due to his busy shedule I didn't want to trouble him. He is what I consider anything possible guy always says " nah that's not difficult - this is how it is done"





:thumbsup: Got a name? 

LOL :devil: I've been searching for a shop to make a small run of titanium lights, somewhere between 1 dozen & 4 dozen. Emailed blueprints with renderings to every CNC shop within 100 miles & posted the request for quote on MFG.com. Each & every shop gives the same reply - they are running well over capacity & don't want to bother with a small run like this. Pretty much the norm in an area with low labor rates & a well trained work force.


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## egrep (Mar 25, 2012)

I suppose Cardiff and Benton are two very different places, eh?



precisionworks said:


> Originally Posted by *mohanjude*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## precisionworks (Mar 25, 2012)

egrep said:


> I suppose Cardiff and Benton are two very different places, eh?


LOL  Only six time zones apart.


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## egrep (Mar 25, 2012)

Haha, yes. I suppose so. But I was talking more about the type of machinists you're likely to find.


precisionworks said:


> LOL  Only six time zones apart.


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## bmstrong (Mar 25, 2012)

KuKu427 said:


> 5 years...  I see what you mean.
> My machine shop would need volume before they are willing to take this on.
> If we don't get volume, would you be willing to consider having someone else doing the machining?
> Let's kick this ball around till we figure something out.
> ...



I've been willing for 5 years to get one. The problems I always run into are agreeing on a price and matching the specs as much as possible. Frankly I just got tired of being disappointed via PM or Email.


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## mohanjude (Apr 7, 2012)

A go at knurling....

The blanks...





Bandsaw chopping away...





Different results depending on preassure..






Now the rods need to be turned on the CNC....


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## egrep (Apr 7, 2012)

You never cease to amaze me, Sir! It's not surprising, but it is amazing. Carry On!


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## mohanjude (Apr 8, 2012)

Here is the 18650 body finished to go on the SM V10r Ti.


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## Harry999 (Apr 8, 2012)

mohanjude, Wow! I think you might find a number of CPF members will be contacting you about these...


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## TnC_Products (Apr 26, 2012)

bmstrong, send me an e-mail and let me know exactly what you are looking for. I might be able to help.

Chris


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## darkzero (May 3, 2012)

I'm not up for the task......just showing that it is possible using the form tool that Barry posted on a manual machine.


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## easilyled (May 8, 2012)

Will, those are fantastic. Why am I not surprised coming from you?


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## bmstrong (May 8, 2012)

Pretty much everything I have ever wanted in a 6/4 knurl, minus the beadblasting. I'm sure that's a pretty easy fix. 

Shame nothing will ever come of it.


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## bmstrong (Jul 7, 2012)

Spent quite some time running back through threads this morning and couldn't find anything. Anyone else?


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## precisionworks (Jul 7, 2012)

Will (darkzero) does the best full profile knurling I've ever seen on Ti-6-4. He's the person I'd contact for a one off. 

Bands are more easily knurled but I have never found a way to make them either full profile or uniform:







Adding a knurl detail like that to an existing light isn't hard to do, as long as the body is a straight cylinder with enough thickness that grooves can be cut at least .016" (0.4mm) deep.


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