# Fire~FlyIII detailed review



## joema (Mar 1, 2006)

*Pros:* smallest available regulated 123A light, variable programmable output, quality construction and feel, good beam design, good beam quality, excellent output, very dim low level.
*Cons:* slight amount of battery rattle, operation possibly intimidating for unsophisticated users.

*Detailed review:*

The Fire~FlyIII is a very small, variable output, twist switch light using a rechargeable protected RCR123A battery and Luxeon III emitter, made by Spark Illuminations, run by CPF member Dspeck.

It can use a non-rechargeable CR123A but without max output. The mfg says it shouldn't be used with unprotected RCR123A batteries. Price is $130, including battery and Nano charger.

Construction is aluminum with a copper heatsink. Size: 64mm x 19 mm (pocket body), 20mm (bezel dia.). The key lug body version is about 4 mm longer. Surface is black type III hard anodized. Light will tail stand (candle mode) with either body style. Measured weight (with battery) is 58 grams, vs 38g for the Peak Caribbean and 76g for an HDS U60.

The FF3 has three brightness levels, of which two are user selectable (out of 20 available levels). Five available user interfaces can be selected. The simplest default interface provides low/high/max, the more involved ones include SOS, strobe flash, and various other options. One mode allows the light to remember the output level at which it was turned off. The user can select low to come on first, or high to come on first. The user can switch between user interfaces based on preference. Light is controlled by an microcontroller using FluPIC firmware v. 2.1.

Brightness levels are selected with a simple on/off/on sequence, not by progressively turning the twist switch further. This gives a precise feel, and makes one-hand operation easier than other multi-level twist lights requiring more rotation. Twist switch on both my FF3s is very smooth, with the perfect amount of resistance -- a good precision feel.

Output on max is very bright. simple lux meter reflection tests indicate it's 25% brighter than an HDS U60, which would theoretically be 75 lumens. However the mfg says max output isn't designed for continuous use. Lux meter reflection tests show the default "high" output level is very roughly 42 lumens, about equal to an HDS U42 or U60 on level 2.

Lowest available output level is very dim. Comparing to my HDS U60 which is 0.08 lumens on low, I'd estimate it only a little brighter, say 0.2 lumens. This is dim enough to totally preserve night vision.

Beam design is good; hotspot beam angle is about 8 degrees, a little wider than a Peak Caribbean. Spillbeam beam angle is about 70 degrees, about equal to an HDS U60. However the measured spillbeam brightness is about double the HDS U60. This provides a flood characteristic at close range, yet the hotspot retains useful throw. Beam appearance is fairly good; there are some very faint swirls and inclusions visible at some output levels and distances.

Beam color is good, visually appearing very white. My two FF3s are almost identical in beam brightness and tint.

*Summary:* A very impressive product. It's essentially a pint-size HDS U60, but gives up nothing in output. It could also be considered a shortened Peak Caribbean with variable programmable output. Excellent overall handling and feel.

Many would find it too large for keychain use, but it's very compact -- smaller a pocket body Peak Caribbean, yet with about 2x the output (albeit on max, which is short-term use only). It's the same diameter and only 4mm longer than a Jil CR2 1.3w (UP), yet it's 123A-powered.

Run time wasn't measured.

FluPIC operation took a little familiarization, but isn't bad once you're used to it.

Instruction manual is well written and far more extensive than some other high end lights (e.g, HDS). However it could use a few enhancements such as a "quick start" page, more detailed examples of how to operate the interface, and bezel disassembly instructions.

Negatives: As typical with limited production lights, a little dust on the reflector. A very little battery rattle. Max output is impressive but not designed for continuous use. FluPIC operation OK for Flashaholics, likely indimidating for regular people. However the simple user interface #1 is just low/high/max/off. 

Below: HDS U60, FF3, Peak Caribbean (pocket body)




Below: Surefire U2, HDS U60, Peak Caribbean, FF3, Arc AAA-P




Below: Peak Caribbean, HDS U60 (max), FF3 (max)




Below: Peak Caribbean, HDS U60 (max), FF3 (max)




Below: HDS U60 (max), FF3 (max), Peak Caribbean


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## goldserve (Mar 1, 2006)

Excellent review indeed. A great slim 123 light! oh behalf of CPF, I'd like to thank you for your efforts in putting together this review.


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## DSpeck (Mar 1, 2006)

Wow, excellent review, joema! Thanks for the thorough testing. I will take your comments about the manual under consideration, too. In fact, I can post it on the web for everyone to take a look at... I am pretty proud of it as it is (worked hard at getting it to look good and read well), but most anything can stand a bit of improvement.

A small note - the colour is actually very dark blue, not quite black...


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## goldserve (Mar 1, 2006)

Doug,

Please do get the manual up. Thanks!


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## DSpeck (Mar 1, 2006)

Here is the FF3 manual in two different formats, small size (as printed and sent out), or full-page, for printing out on your home printer.

Small version: http://www3.sympatico.ca/d.speck/FF3/FF3_Owners_Manual_small.pdf

Large version: http://www3.sympatico.ca/d.speck/FF3/FF3_Owners_Manual_large.pdf


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## joema (Mar 1, 2006)

*DSpeck:* _I will take your comments about the manual under consideration, too. In fact, I can post it on the web for everyone to take a look at... I am pretty proud of it as it is (worked hard at getting it to look good and read well), but most anything can stand a bit of improvement..._

Doug, the manual is _very good_. The layout and wording is very polished and professional. I've purchased limited production items 10x the FF3's cost which didn't have manuals as good.

Here are a few suggestions to make it even better:

- Have a "quick start" page, that very succinctly describes (possibly bulletized) the minimum steps needed to turn it on and select brightness in UI #1

- Clarify and explain the terms "mode" and "UI". Explain in UI #1, changing modes is largely synonymous with changing brightness.

- Figure 1 uses the term "User Mode 1", "User Mode 2", etc to denote UI #1, UI #2, etc. Ideally the term "mode" should be consistent throughout the manual.

- On page 5 under the heading "Setting Brightness Levels", you describe what that is, but not how to do it.

- For users who want to stay in UI #1 yet change brightness levels, explain they must change to another UI to set levels, then return to UI #1. It's obvious from the Figure 1 chart, but would help clarify to state it.

- There's a nice 3D exploded view of the bezel on page 4 and statement that the electronics can easily be removed, but there are no instructions for doing that.


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## LowWorm (Mar 1, 2006)

Thanks, joema - it looks like a promising light. A couple of questions: do you notice any heat issues at the high (42 lumens) level? In other words, could you run it that high for oh, say 30+ minutes and have it get no hotter than warm?

And was there any noticeable donut in the beam from less than 10 inches away from a white surface?


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## xr4fun (Mar 1, 2006)

I've compared mine a little bit to my McluxIII PD. First I would like to say both are great lights. The beam on the FF3 is not as perfect as the PD, but what light is? It has a slight ring about halfway from between the edge of the hot spot and the edge of the spill not really noticable except on a white wall test. I actually prefer the beam for most tasks. The PD gets a donut hole at about 5" from the wall and the FF3 gets a little hole at less than 2" from the wall. The more I use this light the more I like the beam shape. At about the same light output as the PD it won't throw as far, but in Burst it almost makes it.


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## LowWorm (Mar 2, 2006)

Thanks, xr4fun...that info helps a lot. Sometimes it's apples to oranges comparing some lights, but regardless, if you are looking for a particular characteristic, it helps.


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## joema (Mar 2, 2006)

*LowWorm: "Thanks, joema - it looks like a promising light. A couple of questions: do you notice any heat issues at the high (42 lumens) level? In other words, could you run it that high for oh, say 30+ minutes and have it get no hotter than warm? And was there any noticeable donut in the beam from less than 10 inches away from a white surface?"

I just did a 15 min, test at level 15 (roughly 42 lumens based on HDS lux meter reflection comparison). It's definitely a warm light. Within a few minutes it's noticeably warm, and by 5 min it's quite warm. It was never too warm to comfortably hold. It was a little warmer than my Peak Caribbean after about the same period. These are extremely rough estimates; instrumented measurement would be better.

On max output it gets very warm quickly. This is completely expected. It's outputting more power than an HDS U60, and the surface area is roughly 1/2 the size, so the thermal output per unit area will be twice as much. The copper heat sink was a good idea. Depending on the exact alloys involved, copper has about 3x the thermal conductivity of aluminum.

It's impossible to have a small, powerful LED light that doesn't get warm. OTOH, the FF3 allows you to set brightness levels. This can significantly reduce the heat, since your eye perceives brightness logarithmically. Just backing down the brightness one or two levels doesn't appear much dimmer visually but can generate much less heat and stretch battery life.

I can't over stress the above. I did a comparison of how hot my two FF3s got. I thought they were set to the same brightness -- output levels looked identical. Yet one got hotter faster than the other, so I initially assumed it had a less efficient emitter. But my lux meter showed the hot one was outputting 40% more, so the higher heat was expected. If you haven't used a lux meter, you just can't believe how insensitive the eye is to brightness levels.

I think most people can select an FF3 brightness level that adequately balances output, runtime and heat. 

However anybody using levels 15 and above will notice it getting warm. In my use thus far it hasn't been uncomfortable, but it happens quickly due to the power and copper heat sink's thermal conductivity.

Edit/add: The only donut pattern I see is at one inch distance and less.*


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## Phaserburn (Mar 2, 2006)

Excellent write up, Joema. You beat me to it. I just got my FF3 last night as well. I strongly concur with just about everything, except my unit doesn't have battery rattle of any kind. YMMV, I guess.

One thing that I think was forgotten about this fantastic effort on the part of Doug Speck: mine included the "adapter ring" necessary for using other sandwiches in place of the flupic. Now, having said that, I see no reason why I would want to do this, but I got it anyway because I thought it might be nice to run a NG500 with standard 123 cells. I wonder what kind of heat would be generated by a long burn in that config. In a MM, it stays pretty cool. I appreciate the extra versatility in the design.

Also: this light is totally user accessible, and easily so at that. Doug, I just have to say *Bravo* for a really great effort. Not only that, but the largest caveat of all in today's CPF: the price was reasonable for what you get, which in my case included 2 new 750ma protected li-ion 123 cells (with Doug's logo stamped on them, no less). Doug also threw in a very bright and logo'd keychain Fauxton. Nice touch. 

This is a great light, and my new EDC. I've tried the rest; the FF3 is the best!


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## DSpeck (Mar 3, 2006)

Thanks, Phaserburn!  I haven't used any of the NG sandwiches, but at 500mA, it should not get very hot, just warm, even in a long burn. The BB650 in the FF2 got pretty warm, but the NG500 should be noticeably cooler. Of course, you can just set the FF3 on a lower mode if you want that output, anyway.


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## Planterz (Mar 3, 2006)

Could somebody post a picture comparing a FFIII with keyring body vs a Jil Intelli/DD?


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## PKT (Mar 3, 2006)

Phaserburn said:


> Excellent write up, Joema. You beat me to it. I just got my FF3 last night as well. I strongly concur with just about everything, except my unit doesn't have battery rattle of any kind. YMMV, I guess.
> 
> One thing that I think was forgotten about this fantastic effort on the part of Doug Speck: mine included the "adapter ring" necessary for using other sandwiches in place of the flupic. Now, having said that, I see no reason why I would want to do this, but I got it anyway because I thought it might be nice to run a NG500 with standard 123 cells. I wonder what kind of heat would be generated by a long burn in that config. In a MM, it stays pretty cool. I appreciate the extra versatility in the design.
> 
> ...




I agree completely with this assessment. I got both body styles
And have no complaints what so ever. 
Thanks Doug


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## BentHeadTX (Mar 3, 2006)

If I can talk my wife into it....
Do you ship to APO addresses and how much would the extra handling charge be? How long is the backlog? If I ordered today would it be a few months or a few weeks? 
I need to quit reading FF-III reviews!


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## Phaserburn (Mar 3, 2006)

Joema, did you take current readings at the different levels yet? It'd be interesting to have runtime estimates. Just wondering. I'd do it, but I won't be able to get to it for some time.


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## joema (Mar 3, 2006)

Phaserburn said:


> Joema, did you take current readings at the different levels yet? It'd be interesting to have runtime estimates. Just wondering. I'd do it, but I won't be able to get to it for some time.


Sorry, I was going to but my meter broke. I needed a new one anyway


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## joema (Mar 3, 2006)

OK I got a new meter and did some tests.

Level 1 (dimmest) is 3.4 mA
Level 3 (default low) is 21.3 mA
Level 15 (default high) is 650 mA
Burst (max) is 1,000 mA

In theory it would run 200 hr on the lowest level. On level 3 it's measured output is roughly equal to my HDS on level 7 (7.5 lumens), about equal brightness to an Arc AAA-P. Theoretically the FF3 could run 35 hr at that level.


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## goldserve (Mar 3, 2006)

Something doesn't make too much sense. Is this the current draw from the battery or actual led? Why it doesn't make sense is the big gap from level 15 to level 20...level 15 should be around 600ma. Are you sure you were level 20 and not burst?


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## joema (Mar 3, 2006)

Ah, sorry about that. It was burst, not level 20. I mistakenly assumed they were the same. Current draw was measured from the battery.

Edit/add: I re-checked level 15 and it was 650 mA. Sorry, don't know what happened the first time.

Edit/add: Let me revise the above. It was whatever the "max" brightness level is as shown on the FluPIC chart. If that's 20, it was 20. If there's some other term, it was that.


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## goldserve (Mar 3, 2006)

Max brightness, 20/20 is not burst mode. At 20/20, you'll get a few more ma..but in burst, you'll get 1A all the way to 1.2A on a fresh battery. Enjoy!


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## joema (Mar 3, 2006)

Just to be clear, by burst mode you mean what the FF3 manual calls "max mode"? And max/burst mode has greater output than level 20?


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## powernoodle (Mar 3, 2006)

A question or three, please.

1) whats the max recommended time for usage in burst mode?

2) if you are in UI1, and using the low beam, do you just crank it once to turn it off?

3) on high mode, is it sorta like a JIL 1.3W in the throw department, more or less?

thx!


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## joema (Mar 3, 2006)

In max (aka "burst" mode, I think), the FF3 manual recommends 30-45 seconds. However I've used considerably longer than that. There's actually not that much visual difference between level 15 and max/burst output, yet level 15 uses about 1/2 the current. That's due to the eye's logarithmic sensitivity. With the FF3 you can select whatever output level you want to best balance runtime, heat and output, based on your needs.

If in UI1 whether using low, high or max, you just twist to turn off. The great thing is low/high/max doesn't require progressive twisting. Rather you select them with quick on/off/on motions. You're only twisting the bezel a little. It's a lot better than lights which require rotating the bezel 180 degrees.

It's very programmable -- if you want the first level to be brightest, you can do that. If you want the first level to be dimmest, you can do that. 

I don't have a Jil, but I think the FF3 uses a Jil reflector (or very similar). The overall beam pattern is probably roughly similar to the Jil, but it has much more output.

In actual use, it has about the same throw as my HDS U60.


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## DSpeck (Mar 3, 2006)

To answer some of the points brought up:

BentHeadTX - I will ship anywhere that the postal system (Airmail) ships to, APOs included. I will check into shipping charges for them. Shipping would be done depending on whether the charger is ordered or not. Everything is in stock except the chargers, so I can ship out within a day or two of you ordering.

joema - burst=max mode, and is a level which does no PWM dimming at all - it's the maximum output available from the battery. As Goldserve mentions, it's up to 1.2A (1200mA) to the emitter - that's why limiting use of that mode is a good idea. I picked 30-45 seconds as a nice safe number, but even up to 5 minutes (the light will get HOT) should be OK.

The reflectors are purchased from JIL, so the beam pattern should be similar. The reflector is trimmed a bit on the outside to fit into the FF3, but the inner reflective part is unchanged. The emitter may end up at a slightly different point in the focus, so the pattern may not be identical to the JIL lights.


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## jar3ds (Mar 4, 2006)

Planterz said:


> Could somebody post a picture comparing a FFIII with keyring body vs a Jil Intelli/DD?



+1... it seems to me the closest comparison to the FFIII is the jil intelli ...

i'd like to see a visual comparision... 

excellent light!


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## BentHeadTX (Mar 4, 2006)

DSpeck,
 Can you PM me the cost information for the FF-III, two chargers and three RCR123 batteries? Depending on when the chargers arrive, I might go for the split-shipment option so include additional shipping quotes. Thanks!


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## karlthev (Mar 4, 2006)

Doug, just PMed you....


Karlthev


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## joema (Mar 4, 2006)

jar3ds said:


> +1... it seems to me the closest comparison to the FFIII is the jil intelli ...i'd like to see a visual comparision...



Here's a picture of the Jil Intelli: http://www.pbase.com/somynex/image/54430217

Here's the FF3, pocket body version:





The Jil Intelli is a very compelling light, more keychain size but with FluPIC programmable brightness. It and the FF3 have similar reflectors and FluPIC controllers. Of course the Intelli is RCR2-powered so it has about 1/2 the amp hr capacity and 1/2 the peak output current as the RCR123A-powered FF3.


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## Planterz (Mar 4, 2006)

Thanks Joema, it's not a direct comparison, but it helps. Looks like I'm going to have to buy one of these too.


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## Somy Nex (Mar 4, 2006)

Doug just sent my FFIII a couple days ago, and it should be here next weekas will my Raw NS. I will post pics (and hopefully beamshots if i have the time) of all three together once I get them :naughty: 

my advice? buy them now! all of them!  you can choose which to keep later, and my hunch is, you'll find a buyer here at a minimal loss, especially if you've only just "took it out to test/compare".


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## nirad (Mar 4, 2006)

Where is the info to order a FF III ?? Did I miss something?


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## Somy Nex (Mar 4, 2006)

FFIII Order Thread here =)
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/90822
the pre-order is closed, but if I am not mistaken, Doug is still taking orders at regular prices. wouldn't hurt to double check first though.


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## BentHeadTX (Mar 5, 2006)

Just sent DSpeck and email asking about additional chargers/batteries and APO surcharges.

This will be my first commonly used flashlight that runs CR123/RCR123 batteries so be gentle!  I think I can put up with it on my keychain and have a spare battery and charger at work & home. 

Now to wait for DSpeck to answer back so I can send some paypal his way.


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## DSpeck (Mar 6, 2006)

The Post Office didn't reply to my inquiry about APO shipping yet, BentHeadTX, but I will get back to you as soon as they do.

I still have plenty of the FF3s in stock, and batteries too, just no chargers yet. I am taking orders at the regular prices, since the lights are ready to go. If you need a charger, there will be a (small...?) delay until they are delivered. You are welcome to order without cell or charger, or with cell(s) but no charger, and I can ship out immediately. Do be aware that for the warranty to apply, you need to use protected cells - this is a safety precaution against over-discharge/short/etc.


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## joema (Mar 7, 2006)

Remember anybody lacking a charger and wanting a FF3 can get the same charger and batteries from Lighthound. No need to wait! Just make sure you get the protected batteries.

http://www.lighthound.com/sales/nano_r123_lithium_battery_charger.htm


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## BentHeadTX (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks DSpeck,
Additional APO charges are generally not for shipping, it has to do with filling out a customs form since the American APO box then ships to overseas locations. The shipping charges are only to Delaware. Be aware the tracking is only to Delaware... the flight across the pond is not tracked.

To be kinder and gentler to the batteries (a 1000 points of light!) I plan on having two chargers and three batteries; one battery/charger at work and one battery/charger at home. I'll be always ready with a spare so the batteries should have an easier life.


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## lightdoc (Mar 9, 2006)

Paypal sent-

Fire~FlyIII, no batteries or charger (I have lots of r123's already)
Now I'll just have to wait!


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## xochi (Mar 10, 2006)

Hey Bent, if you plan on using it for your keychain you may want to pick up one of the aluminum heatsinks if they are available. The copper heatsink adds quite a bit of weight.


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## BobbyRS (Mar 10, 2006)

Doug, any chance you are interested in making a U-bin version?


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## DSpeck (Mar 10, 2006)

BobbyRS: If I could get my hands on U-bins (UWOH, ideally), then I'd be happy to do so. I don't know if the U-bins are all that readily available, though. At some point, I'd like to switch the LuxIII for a K2, but I will have to get my hands on some production samples and see what reflector will work best before doing that. I should be able to change just the heatsink and possibly the reflector, so it would be a simple upgrade if someone wanted to do that. It's in the future though, since the K2s are not in general circulation just yet, AFAIK. They have been released officially, but aren't in the distribution channels yet.

The chargers arrived this morning for the FF3, so there is no longer a need to go searching for them anywhere else. You can get them with your orders now.


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## BentHeadTX (Mar 11, 2006)

Paypal sent! 
FF-III with battery/charger, additional charger and two additional RCR123A batteries. Woohoo! I get that sneaking feeling that I will be satisfied with the light... I had better be! My wife payed for this one (birthday present) If I screw up her birthday present this year, she will take it back 
Late breaking edit! 
I was pondering if the FF-III is too large in diameter to put on my keychain and my wife quickly solved that problem "You had better carry that $$$ freakin' flashlight on your keychain the rest of your life"!
Solves that little nagging question in the ol' cranium. Spark Illuminations will probably offer an "upgrade the LED" service when the 200 lumen Luxeon K3 (or whatever) shows up. If not, I can mod it myself 
Thanks again for the review with size comparisons, beam shots and detailed instructions. I view it as a HDS U85 mixed with a Peak Pacific AAA but smaller and shorter. 
Now I wait


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## BobbyRS (Mar 11, 2006)

DSpeck said:


> BobbyRS: If I could get my hands on U-bins (UWOH, ideally), then I'd be happy to do so. I don't know if the U-bins are all that readily available, though. At some point, I'd like to switch the LuxIII for a K2, but I will have to get my hands on some production samples and see what reflector will work best before doing that. I should be able to change just the heatsink and possibly the reflector, so it would be a simple upgrade if someone wanted to do that. It's in the future though, since the K2s are not in general circulation just yet, AFAIK. They have been released officially, but aren't in the distribution channels yet.


 
K2 FFIII.... that would be even better. :rock: Where do I send the money?  That sounds great. I can't wait.  Please keep us up to date if you ever decide to try this.


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## this_is_nascar (Mar 15, 2006)

Awesome review. I love the FF-II so much, I'm really looking forward to getting my FF-III, hopefully by the end of the week. Does anyone know if there will be an alumimum collar available to replace the copper one?


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## Phaserburn (Mar 16, 2006)

One of the best FF3 features is that it will last a looong time in your arsenal due to the ability to swap the light engine out with the latest technology, in this case the K2.


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## Planterz (Mar 16, 2006)

I got my FF3 yesterday afternoon. My immediate impression was that if I didn't know better, I'd say that there's no way this was a 123 powered light. It's just too damn small, even with the longer keychain body. It's barely bigger around than my CR2 Ion. Damned bright too. Even the "low" at level 5 is pretty bright, and on "high" at 15 it matches my McLux III PD (even brighter on "burst"). I've set mine to Mode 4 (low, high, burst, strobe, SOS). Mode 5 is pretty fun if you want to cause siezures.

The only thing I don't like about this light is that it doesn't quite fill a niche for me. Too big for a keychain (at least one that I'd put in my pocket--it'd probably be fine for people who carry theirs on their belt), and I only carry lights with pocket clips if they're not on a keyring. I'll probably make/buy a lanyard for it and use it that way.

If I wave the light back and forth I can see flickering pretty easily on "low". It's only very slightly noticable in regular use, and usually only when I'm looking at something very close to the light itself (like my feet when I'm walking around pointing the light foreward). If I shake my hand real fast I can still see flickering on "high" if I look right at the light, but it's unnoticable in regular use. If I were to set a level lower than 5, it might start to bug me.

One thing that I'm thinking of is attatching a pocket clip (specifically MgGizmo's universal Ti clip). There's plenty of screw space around the base of the keyring body. This would make a very small, yet extremely versatile EDC light. It'd be even better if a 17650 body were available (maybe with a tail button too).


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## this_is_nascar (Mar 21, 2006)

Keep the reviews coming. It's all I have while I wait for my FF-III to arrive.


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## Ned-L (Mar 25, 2006)

Planterz said:


> One thing that I'm thinking of is attatching a pocket clip (specifically MgGizmo's universal Ti clip). There's plenty of screw space around the base of the keyring body. This would make a very small, yet extremely versatile EDC light. It'd be even better if a 17650 body were available (maybe with a tail button too).


Planterz, please let us know if you add a pocket clip and post photos. It sounds like it would be a great EDC with a pocket clip! 

I would like to hear what others think about carrying it on a keychain in their front pants pocket???


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## BentHeadTX (Mar 25, 2006)

Ned-L said:


> Planterz, please let us know if you add a pocket clip and post photos. It sounds like it would be a great EDC with a pocket clip!
> 
> I would like to hear what others think about carrying it on a keychain in their front pants pocket???



Ned,
Mine is on order and it will be on a keychain  A 17650 body with a clickie and McGizmo Ti clip would be a great EDC also. I think DSpeck has enough to worry about before we start asking for additional bodies. Still don't know if he has shipped mine yet so I wait.


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## Ned-L (Mar 25, 2006)

BentHeadTX said:


> Ned,
> Mine is on order and it will be on a keychain  A 17650 body with a clickie and McGizmo Ti clip would be a great EDC also. I think DSpeck has enough to worry about before we start asking for additional bodies. Still don't know if he has shipped mine yet so I wait.


Doug,
Have you considered offering the FireFlyIII with a clip (McGizmo Ti or some equivalently useful clip)?
Ned


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## jar3ds (Mar 28, 2006)

a fireflyIII with a mcgizmo style Ti clip would have me throwing my paypal account @ doug in a hurry! even more so with extra tubes


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## this_is_nascar (Mar 28, 2006)

My personal opinion is that adding any style of clip to the FireFly, defeats the purpose of it's small size. To me, it's as bad as when you see folks putting an Arc-AAA in a sheath. Why bother?


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## Lebkuecher (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree with Tin (I think) I ordered a FF Friday so I haven’t received it yet so maybe I should wait for it to be in my hands before commenting. Anyone have any idea how long it will take to mail the FF from Canada to Arizona? I really would like to have it this week but this might be wishful thinking.


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## this_is_nascar (Mar 28, 2006)

Lebkuecher said:


> I agree with Tin (I think) I ordered a FF Friday so I haven’t received it yet so maybe I should wait for it to be in my hands before commenting. Anyone have any idea how long it will take to mail the FF from Canada to Arizona? I really would like to have it this week but this might be wishful thinking.



Depends, I think. I've recieved things from Doug in NJ in 7-10 days in the past, however my FF-III hasn't yet arrived after a couple weeks.


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## BentHeadTX (Mar 28, 2006)

this_is_nascar said:


> My personal opinion is that adding any style of clip to the FireFly, defeats the purpose of it's small size. To me, it's as bad as when you see folks putting an Arc-AAA in a sheath. Why bother?



I can see a clip if Doug made a longer body, say to use one of those long Pila Li-Ions for more runtime. It would defeat the small size of the light, but would add an interesting option. 

My FF-III was ordered the 10th and shipped the 23rd (last Thursday) due to the large amount of pre-orders that required shipment. Doug was low on something that caused a partial delay but is back full steam. Ain't customs fun?!


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## Planterz (Mar 28, 2006)

Lebkuecher said:


> I ordered a FF Friday so I haven’t received it yet so maybe I should wait for it to be in my hands before commenting. Anyone have any idea how long it will take to mail the FF from Canada to Arizona? I really would like to have it this week but this might be wishful thinking.


I ordered mine on the 6th, received it on the 15th.


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## Ned-L (Mar 29, 2006)

BentHeadTX said:


> I can see a clip if Doug made a longer body, say to use one of those long Pila Li-Ions for more runtime. It would defeat the small size of the light, but would add an interesting option.
> 
> My FF-III was ordered the 10th and shipped the 23rd (last Thursday) due to the large amount of pre-orders that required shipment. Doug was low on something that caused a partial delay but is back full steam. Ain't customs fun?!


Just curious - if the light is too big to carry on a keychain as I think several people have stated and there is no clip - how do you carry it? Just stuck in a pocket or some kind of sheath? From the photos, it looks small enough that clipped to the inside of a front pocket it would hardly be noticeable?


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## jar3ds (Mar 29, 2006)

Ned-L said:


> Just curious - if the light is too big to carry on a keychain as I think several people have stated and there is no clip - how do you carry it? Just stuck in a pocket or some kind of sheath? From the photos, it looks small enough that clipped to the inside of a front pocket it would hardly be noticeable?


 completely agree with Ned on this on TIN... Right now I carry my HDS loose in my cargo pocket... and it bugs the heck out of me... I hate the clip that comes with the HDS, and the only other tolerable place to carry it that I KNOW it will be safe not to fall out is my sealed cargo pocket... 

For that reason I would like to have a clip... a clip just allows more secure carry and quicker access... just like any 'small' pocket knife usally has a pocket clip now a days...

having a good clip on a light the size of the FFIII is nothing like an arc in a holster


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## this_is_nascar (Mar 29, 2006)

Ned-L said:


> Just curious - if the light is too big to carry on a keychain as I think several people have stated and there is no clip - how do you carry it? Just stuck in a pocket or some kind of sheath? From the photos, it looks small enough that clipped to the inside of a front pocket it would hardly be noticeable?



I use one of those small SureFire clips attached to a small lanyard and clip the FF ont the inside of my left front pocket. It rides suspended in that pocket and is not noticable at all.


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## Ned-L (Mar 29, 2006)

this_is_nascar said:


> I use one of those small SureFire clips attached to a small lanyard and clip the FF ont the inside of my left front pocket. It rides suspended in that pocket and is not noticable at all.


Does that mean that you had to drill some holes in your FF to mount the clip? If so, did you need to use a drill press?


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## this_is_nascar (Mar 29, 2006)

Ned-L said:


> Does that mean that you had to drill some holes in your FF to mount the clip? If so, did you need to use a drill press?



No. On the tube that has the lanyard hole this is a small split-ring that attaches the lanyard.


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## brightnorm (Mar 29, 2006)

deleted


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## JackJ (Mar 30, 2006)

Got my FFIII yesterday, and I love it. I find the size acceptable for pocket keychain carry, as long as I'm wearing my usual loose fitting chinos. If an aluminium module becomes available to replace the copper, I might buy it to lighten it up, but it's not a big deal.

I didn't know what to think of the user interface from the descriptions/manual, but I find it very easy to navigate. The head is incredibly smooth to turn. The output on "15" is impressive, and burst even more so. Right now I've got low programmed down to 2, and high at 11 (I think--the levels go by pretty quick in the set mode). As others noted, the difference between 15 and burst isn't all that great. I'm not sure I have the patience to measure runtimes, but I'd love to know what they are, even at just the default levels. 

I dropped a primary cell in, and while output was down, it wasn't too bad--plenty useful. Can anyone estimate runtime on a primary based on current draw?

I have just one issue--I own two previously purchased R123 protected cells that I got from Lighthound a couple weeks ago. One simply doesn't fit the FireFly. I made the mistake of pushing it in, and then had to retrieve it with pliers, and messed up the plastic wrap in the process. I'm not sure if Lighthound's, AW's, and Doug's cells are all the same? The other Lighthound cell and the one supplied by Doug are both snug--no battery rattle here--but can be removed with a vigorous shake. I want to purchase a couple more cells, but I'm now nervous about getting ones that fit. Anybody else have this problem? Or does anyone know if a particular protected cell tends to be smaller in diameter?

Overall, a fantastic light, and probably my most satisfying flashlight purchase to date. It instantly became the EDC that I'll always have with me. My perfect EDC would be a little smaller and a little lighter, so the JIL Intelli is still something I'm considering, but I suspect what I'd give up in battery capacity would outweigh the very small improvement in form factor.

Congratulations, Doug, on an incredible light. Can't wait to see what it'll do with a K2.

JackJ


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## Hondo (Mar 31, 2006)

JackJ, was the tight cell fresh charged? I have read that they swell a bit at full charge, and come back down with use. With the small size of the FF3, I doubt Doug has allowed for "easy" fit of the largest brands at "peak" charge/size. May or may not apply, but would be curious if the same cell half used would slip in more easily. Meanwhile, I am hoping today is my day at the mailbox!


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## JackJ (Mar 31, 2006)

Hondo said:


> JackJ, was the tight cell fresh charged?


 
I had charged the "fat" cell several days earlier on a DSD charger. So it was close to a full charge, but not right off the charger.


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## brightnorm (Mar 31, 2006)

I have had no problems with Jon's cells


Brightnorm


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## nightshade (Mar 31, 2006)

I've got cells from three sources now- Doug, Lighthound and a local camera/electronics shop. All have varying lengths and widths. The ones from Lighthound are slightly longer than the others. I think this is the nature of rechargeables of this type right now. The camera shop sales staff pointed that out as well, telling me some cells are larger than others . I'm sure QC will increase as these cells become more mainstream items. Really love these cells despite the variances.


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## Whitelitee (Apr 7, 2006)

http://www.picfury.com/i/DSC00168-2.html 



http://www.picfury.com/i/DSC00170-2.html


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## Whitelitee (Apr 14, 2006)

Took some comparison pics today,


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## Whitelitee (Apr 14, 2006)




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## AFAustin (Apr 16, 2006)

Pls. allow an elementary question. I know that overdriving 5mm LEDs shortens LED life (e.g., a Peak McKinley Ultra has shorter LED life than a High Power). Is this also true with luxeon LEDs, so that, if I choose to set my FF3 "high" level to 17, 18, or 19, will I likewise be shortening the LED life, and, if so, by how much?

Thanks very much for any info.


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## jar3ds (Apr 17, 2006)

from what I know the FF3 isn't being over driven at any level including burst... the only issues you are going to have is the heat buildup which will shorten the LED life... 

remember we are talking thousands of hours...


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## AFAustin (Apr 18, 2006)

jar3ds said:


> from what I know the FF3 isn't being over driven at any level including burst... the only issues you are going to have is the heat buildup which will shorten the LED life...
> 
> remember we are talking thousands of hours...




jar3ds, thanks for the reply. So I guess the moral is, the higher you set "high", the shorter the continuous runtime before it needs a "heat break". Easy enough.


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## Somy Nex (Apr 18, 2006)

i think the Jil Intelli is around 800ma or 1A at burst, and 600 on max brightness (i see conflicting posts, but it's probably 800/600).

I don't see any figures for the FF3, but I think it might have 1A on burst, and possibly 600 on max? However, the FF3 with its larger size and copper heatsink will draw the heat away from the LED far better than the more compact Jil.


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## DSpeck (Apr 22, 2006)

Goldserve has measured up to 1.2A on max (burst) mode. The other levels are hard to measure, since the current is switching on and off quickly, and is not constant (being PWM'd). The FF3 does have a larger heatsink than the Jil Intelli, so it can be on burst longer - although I still recommend less than a minute or so, for heat reasons. The larger battery capacity will surely increase runtime...


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## nightshade (Apr 23, 2006)

I have recently conducted a very brief, mildly abusive,informal and unscientific
test of my FF3. I have submerged the stock FF3 in a 3 foot 9 inch deep decorative pond with a surface temperature of 74F to 68F for 5 hours. After immersion no water entry was found in either the bezel end or battery tube. After this dunk and drying the FF3 was placed in a commercial deep freezer for roughly 2.5 hrs. and reached a surface temperature of 26.6F. After immerging from the freezer the light continued to perform as normal, with a slightly higher drag effect on the bezel threads and what appeared to be perhaps 2/3 brightness on low. High and max appeared, to my eye ,normal for this unit. No water entry from cooling and warming was observed . These tests were performed with a freshly charged cell. Temperature was measured using a 3M IR-500 thermometer. Although I own a light meter, no lux measurement or run-time measurements were performed. I was looking for nothing more than water entry and brief cold-weather effects on both light and supplied rechargeable cell. I will leave scientific and detailed testing to the much more skilled and experienced testers such as TIN and Craig. IMO, a very sturdy, dependable, usable light. Thanks again to Doug for a working mans light.


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## buzzme (Apr 24, 2006)

I've been lurking in the CPF for some time now. Finally purchased the FF3 as my 1st real flashlight. It has exceeded all my expectations. Doug turned my order around in 7 days, thanks. I have been looping the lanyard around my belt and letting the FF3 hang in my pocket......don't even know that it is there. Great job Goldserve on the FluPIC....like riding a bicycle, it is easier to understand once you do it a couple of time. Dreaming out loud....How about a bluetooth FluPIC that would allow wireless connection to a PC to set and monitor the light? 

*A few questions:*
1. Has anyone done any run tests at various levels?
2. Will it hurt anything to turn on the FF3 and let it run all the way down (not on Burst mode) to do my own run test?
3. What is the connection of the FF3 to the "Larry Light", they look very similar. (FWIW, when I do a search for Larry Light, I get strange results  )

Thanks again Doug & Goldserve for making my 1st real light real close to perfect.


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## Somy Nex (Apr 24, 2006)

i can only half answer your questions...

Cones (www.cones-stuff.co.uk) has done tests on the Jil Intelli, which also uses the flupic but runs on a CR2 and has lower mah settings on high and burst. the CR123 battery has twice hte capacity of the CR2.

if you got batteries from Doug with your light, i believe they are protected, so there shouldn't be any harm. the circuit in the battery will just shut power off once it hits the cutoff point.


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## BrightIdeaOSU (Apr 26, 2006)

*Most Excellent Torch*

(I thought that perhaps this was a better place for this than the ordering thread)

Cheers to Mr. Speck, for this remarkable little device. It's everything I like about my matterhorn and everything I like about a nice xenon flood, in an unbelievably small package. The FluPIC was initially hard to use, but after a few hours of playing with it I've got it mastered. The low cost of running is just gravy. The design and case is impeccable, though I am disappointed that the 750mAh li-ion cells I have for the Peak CPF special don't work in it. Too thick. On level 14 it seems just as good as my L2P for walking around the woods at night, my previous favorite. 

I believe I may have found an "easter egg" of sorts in the programming of the light. In mode four, if I quickly flip through low, high, then burst, and turn it off, no matter how long I wait, the next time that I activate the light it is in the self defense flasher mode. Seems like a quick way to ready your light if you wander into a bad neighborhood or something. :touche: 
*edit* It seems that no matter what mode you set it in, if you turn it off in less than .8s it advances to the next mode no matter how long it is off. That needs to be made more clear in the manual, I was trying to turn it on and off much quicker than that. 
The only concern I have has nothing to do with the light, the flupic or the documentation: it bugs me that I don't know the runtime at each level. Doesn't anyone who has one have the right equipment? I sure don't. 

Thanks again, for a great design.


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## AFAustin (May 6, 2006)

I have been extremely impressed with my FF3, which I've had for a few weeks now. It's so good and so versatile, it's on the verge of replacing about 5 or 6 of my other lights, of quite different types.

I have also been pleasantly surprised at the long runtime---it seemed to just run and run and run. Finally today I did a very informal and unscientific runtime test, just to satisfy my own curiousity. On a R123 750mAh cell, I ran the FF3 on high for 10-15 min. at a time, with a short rest period in between. My "high" is about level 16 (the levels are a bit hard to count as you're programming, so this is just a close estimate). 

First of all, I am happy to say the light never got more than a bit warm, even though I had it lying on my desk rather than in my hand to dispel the heat. As for the runtime, I got right at 90 minutes before the light began to dim. I am very impressed and pleased.

This is one dynamite little light. Thanks, Doug and Goldserve!


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## GhostReaction (May 7, 2006)

Could anyone point out how to set the brightness in UI#1? It state that on both the low and high brightness is user settable but on UI#1 there is no mode for user brightness settings.
How deep could I submerge the FFIII is there a specific waterproof tested depth?:naughty:


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## Somy Nex (May 7, 2006)

to set the brightness levels, just move into any other mode that lets you set the brightness levels and set it there, then move back to whatever mode you want to be in. the set levels will carry over =) same with the strobe


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## Glas4d (May 9, 2006)

Does anyone have any "real life" beamshots. either outside shots and something to compare them to or maybe some shots inside down a long hallway. I am on the fence right now and need to see some shots. How much throw does it have? 

thanks.


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## Oddjob (May 9, 2006)

Glas4d...

Just stumbled on this. Hope it helps.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/110866&highlight=FireFlyIII


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## Glas4d (May 9, 2006)

wow thank you very much, exactly the thing i was looking for.


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## AFAustin (May 15, 2006)

I had been having an intermitent problem getting a smooth "turn on" as I twisted the bezel. The problem seems to be solved by using one of AW's small magnets on the + end of my R123s. The downside is that a larger gap at the copper heatsink area is opened up, and a bit of pocket grime gets in there. 

Anyone else dealt with these issues?

Thanks.


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## Somy Nex (May 15, 2006)

i haven't had this issue but i wouldn't use the magnet. try putting a thinner wad of aluminium foil at the "-" end of the battery instead where it hits the tube bottom. you will get less gap on the heatsink, and it'll be safer. magnets have been known to dislodge themselves and cause shorts--not a good thing at all.


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## AFAustin (May 16, 2006)

Thanks, Somy. I'll give it a try.


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## Somy Nex (May 16, 2006)

I've seen the issue on the Jil Intelli with AW's new protected batteries, and this proposed solution for some of the shorter ones. I used it briefly on my Jil, until i figured i actually didn't need the spacer =P Hope it works for you!


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## GhostReaction (May 16, 2006)

How many meters could the Firefly be submerged in water?
Anybody got confidence that this light could be dipped in the pool.

Of cos the FF3 is not a dive light but having some waterproof depth rated is a major thumbsup. I m so tempted to do a "plunge in the pool test" but the O ring could be seen when I twist one full round from ON to OFF.


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## DSpeck (May 16, 2006)

GhostReaction - I have had a customer test it in a 3ft deep pond with no water penetration, so it's good to at least that. I haven't had it tested at any deeper depths. Let's say, it's waterproof to at least 1m. To get the O-ring deeper in the body, sand/file/remove a bit of the solder blob from the bottom of the FLuPIC module. I have confidence that the FF3 can withstand more depth than 1m, and if you want to test it, I think it could withstand the dunk in the pool (probably up to 2m, anyway). If any water should get in, just disassemble the light and blow it dry. Please post any results you find, if you choose to do this test.


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## Denix (May 17, 2006)

Hi guys.

I'm very close to sending my paypal... I quick question though: how about the throw? I don't expect outstanding performance due to the size, but is the throw decent? My main light is a stock Longbow Micra that throws pretty well. I'd expect that the FF would outthrow it at high or max, right?

Thanks!

Guy


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## Planterz (May 17, 2006)

According to Peter Gransee's lumen testing, the FF3 puts out nearly 3X the light of the Longbow. I daresay that it'd outthrow the Longbow.

The beam of the FF3 is a spot with a nice sidespill, similar to what you'd get to an Amilite Neo T3 or an HDS. It's not as concentrated as a Fenix or McLux III beam. I prefer the FFIII and HDS beam myself, at the cost of a bit of throw. This is hardly a scientific analysis, but if you compare the output/throw values on FR's site with the HDS U60XR and the Neo T3 (and assume the FF3 is in the same ballpark) with the Longbow, we're talking about 2-3 times the throw value.

In any case, the amout of light that the FFIII puts out on Burst, or even High (default level 15) is impressive for its size; it's deceptively bright for such a tiny light.


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## Denix (May 17, 2006)

Planterz said:


> According to Peter Gransee's lumen testing, the FF3 puts out nearly 3X the light of the Longbow. I daresay that it'd outthrow the Longbow.
> 
> The beam of the FF3 is a spot with a nice sidespill, similar to what you'd get to an Amilite Neo T3 or an HDS. It's not as concentrated as a Fenix or McLux III beam. I prefer the FFIII and HDS beam myself, at the cost of a bit of throw. This is hardly a scientific analysis, but if you compare the output/throw values on FR's site with the HDS U60XR and the Neo T3 (and assume the FF3 is in the same ballpark) with the Longbow, we're talking about 2-3 times the throw value.
> 
> In any case, the amout of light that the FFIII puts out on Burst, or even High (default level 15) is impressive for its size; it's deceptively bright for such a tiny light.



Sold!

Paypal coming right up.

Thanks!

Guy


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## AFAustin (May 18, 2006)

Somy Nex said:


> i haven't had this issue but i wouldn't use the magnet. try putting a thinner wad of aluminium foil at the "-" end of the battery instead where it hits the tube bottom. you will get less gap on the heatsink, and it'll be safer. magnets have been known to dislodge themselves and cause shorts--not a good thing at all.




Thanks again, Somy. Tin foil at the bottom of the tube (- end) works well---easier twist-on and less heatsink exposed (and no magnet problems).

Andrew


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## Somy Nex (May 18, 2006)

AFAustin said:


> Thanks again, Somy. Tin foil at the bottom of the tube (- end) works well---easier twist-on and less heatsink exposed (and no magnet problems).
> 
> Andrew



glad i could be of help :thumbsup:


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## GhostReaction (May 18, 2006)

I ve sanded down the solder blob and now the Oring sits deeper in the body .

Hold your breath :green: I ll do some waterproof test soon and will update here.



DSpeck said:


> GhostReaction - I have had a customer test it in a 3ft deep pond with no water penetration, so it's good to at least that. I haven't had it tested at any deeper depths. Let's say, it's waterproof to at least 1m. To get the O-ring deeper in the body, sand/file/remove a bit of the solder blob from the bottom of the FLuPIC module. I have confidence that the FF3 can withstand more depth than 1m, and if you want to test it, I think it could withstand the dunk in the pool (probably up to 2m, anyway). If any water should get in, just disassemble the light and blow it dry. Please post any results you find, if you choose to do this test.


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## Mr. Blue (May 22, 2006)

guys...would using primaries be a "mistake" with this light?


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## Xygen (May 22, 2006)

Mr. Blue said:


> guys...would using primaries be a "mistake" with this light?


Mistake? No! You just have limited brightness.

* From the Fire~Fly3 manual:*
The Fire~Fly 3 may be used with a standard, non-rechargeable CR123 cell, but this does not give the best performance. Using the CR123 cell will not give full (max) brightness, but if necessary it can provide sufficient light for some time.


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## goldserve (May 22, 2006)

It would be in the sense that you are not getting the full brightness. CR123s would be preferred in an emergency when you don't carry the extra RCR123 battery =D

You can get nice holsters from LITEMania from his posts that have an option for holding an extra battery...


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## Hondo (May 22, 2006)

Depends on what you want. You cannot get the HUGE output of the burst mode with the Li-Ion, or even equivalent of the default level 15 "high". But having played with mine on primaries, it is not at all "dim". I am guessing you will get a brightness at max with a primary that is around level 10 or so with the Li-Ion. That as I recall was brighter than "primary", or the second brightest setting, on my HDS Basic 42. Maybe close to a Dorcy Metal Gear. Darn usable for most of my purposes, and I would certainly still be using a much lower "low" setting, even with the primary cell. Basically, your high might not be as high as most people are setting it with the Li-Ion, and burst would not add much at all.


As for mistake or not, as long as that upper limit is all the brightness you need, you will get the corresponding loooong run time of a moderate current draw and much higher capacity of the primary cell, with long shelf life. I think they make great emergency back-up cells for this light. Certainly no harm will be done.


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## Mr. Blue (May 22, 2006)

Hondo said:


> Depends on what you want.
> 
> As for mistake or not, as long as that upper limit is all the brightness you need, you will get the corresponding loooong run time of a moderate current draw and much higher capacity of the primary cell, with long shelf life. I think they make great emergency back-up cells for this light. Certainly no harm will be done.



so does that mean at "level 10" on down, I will be getting better run times than with a li-ion at the same levles and down?


you see, I have this weird aversion to rechargeables...protected/unprotected/smart charge etc etc...it's like too much to deal with; especially when camping/canoeing/stuck in the subway


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## Hondo (May 23, 2006)

What I am saying is that your (on primary cell) level 20, or burst, not much difference there with the primary, will be like a Li-Ion's level 10 or so. Your level 10 will not be as bright as the Li-Ion level 10 and so on. But for a given brightness, your run time is better because the Li-Ion cell has less capacity on a charge than the primary. And of course, for a given level you will be getting even longer run times because you are using less current as well (dimmer light, too). I would play with it if I were you, as it only costs an additional ten bucks to get a cell with a charger when ordering the light, which is a bargain. If you don't like it for everyday use, no great loss. I am not sure if run time is a major part of your concern, but realize that when set to the lower levels, you will be talking about dozens of hours of run time on a charge. But as everyone says, it WILL knock your socks off on the high levels with that RCR cell!


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## Planterz (May 23, 2006)

Mr. Blue said:


> you see, I have this weird aversion to rechargeables...protected/unprotected/smart charge etc etc...it's like too much to deal with; especially when camping/canoeing/stuck in the subway


I can sorta understand your feelings, even though I almost exclusively use rechargables. My lights might have rechargables in them, but I keep some primaries in my backpack as spares.

There really isn't anything to worry about when you stick with protected cells. DSpeck makes this easy by including a charger and a cell in his package deal (I'd get an extra cell too though). Rechargables really are better (my opinion) for daily use since you don't have to worry about the batteries being drained each time you turn it on for a few seconds. Just pop it back on the charger every couple days or so. If you commute with a backpack or briefcase, you can always carry a couple primaries for emergencies.

The FFIII still runs OK on primaries, but as people have said, it's definitely restricted by the lower voltage. It's still "utility bright", meaning it's no longer a pocket screamer, but on Max (burst is minimally brighter, if at all), it's still bright enough to light the way. That's on default levels, the nice thing with the FFIII and the FLuPIC is that you can set the levels the way you want. I don't know what runtimes would be, as I've never even thought to test. 

BTW, when I say I keep primary spares, this isn't for the FFIII, which I use mostly at home (no pocket clip), it's for my McLux III PD or CR2 keychain lights.


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## Xygen (May 23, 2006)

May I add a picture to show the great workmanship of this light?







Ok to post more?


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## dirobesh (May 23, 2006)

Damn - that close up pic has just persuaded me to save up and get one. Just when I thought I had escaped...


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## AFAustin (May 23, 2006)

Xygen, very nice photo!


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## dmdrewitt (May 24, 2006)

Xygen

Please post more close up photos. I am certainly thinking of ordering one.


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## Xygen (May 24, 2006)

Ok... Here we go:


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## GhostReaction (May 24, 2006)

XYGEN are you one of the guys working for National Geographic? Those Macro shots are :twothumbs:


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## Denix (May 24, 2006)

Just got mine a few hours ago. You know the worst part? Waiting for the nano to charge that cell!

I'm totally amazed by that little light! Worth every penny!

Guy


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## GhostReaction (May 26, 2006)

One of the RCR123 batt that came with the FF3 just wont light up the light anymore. It was okay the first time but once after recharging it, it just wont power the light anymore. does it mean that the protected circuit in the batt just kicked in. Anyway I can sove this? :help: Now my favorite flashlight only got 1 battleft to run on.


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## BentHeadTX (May 26, 2006)

Put the battery back in the Nano charger for around 30 minutes and that should "reset" the protection curcuit if that was the problem. If you have a volt meter, take a reading and if it is 0.00V... your protection curcuit has engaged. I have three of the DS (AW) cells and they all work great. Hope your's comes back to life.


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## AFAustin (May 26, 2006)

BentHeadTX said:


> Put the battery back in the Nano charger for around 30 minutes and that should "reset" the protection curcuit if that was the problem. If you have a volt meter, take a reading and if it is 0.00V... your protection curcuit has engaged. I have three of the DS (AW) cells and they all work great. Hope your's comes back to life.




Hi, BentHead.

I must have missed this---the protected R123s Doug sold with the FF3 are AW's?


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## BentHeadTX (May 27, 2006)

AFAustin said:


> Hi, Benthead.
> 
> I must have missed this---the protected R123s Doug sold with the FF3 are AW's?



Yes, they look identical and I consider that a really, really good thing. AW took one of his 3.6V RCR123 lithium-ion cells apart to show the rather extensive curcuit board in the top. The board is protected by a plastic spacer for extra durability for the positive end. The flat negative end is made out of steel to hand twisting on the negative post better. A very durable battery that gives extra safety when used in the sealed FF3. 

Been using the blue cells for a few months and they don't show any damage from being switched on and off hundreds of times...


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## Xygen (May 27, 2006)

BentHeadTX said:


> Been using the blue cells for a few months and they don't show any damage from being switched on and off hundreds of times...


Except for a burned spot at the positive end of the cell and the solderblob. I can measure a resistance up to 2 Ohms between this spot and the bare metal.
Did anyone else noticed that? Must be the high current in burst mode...


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## goldserve (May 27, 2006)

The burnt spot may be the solder wire resin that is inside the core of the solder wire. I guess a little bit of rubbing alcohol should clean it up fine.


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## hivoltage (May 27, 2006)

Who is Litemania mentioned above that sells holsters for the FF3?


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## GhostReaction (May 28, 2006)

Thank you BentHead. 
I ve tried to recharge the batt back in the Nano but still wont work. So i ordered 4 more cell from AW.
Is there any method for one to judge when is a good time to charge the batt before the protection circuit trips? Beside having to recharge frequently, twice a month to be on the safe side.




BentHeadTX said:


> Put the battery back in the Nano charger for around 30 minutes and that should "reset" the protection curcuit if that was the problem. If you have a volt meter, take a reading and if it is 0.00V... your protection curcuit has engaged. I have three of the DS (AW) cells and they all work great. Hope your's comes back to life.


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## BentHeadTX (May 28, 2006)

GhostReaction said:


> Thank you BentHead.
> I ve tried to recharge the batt back in the Nano but still wont work. So i ordered 4 more cell from AW.
> Is there any method for one to judge when is a good time to charge the batt before the protection circuit trips? Beside having to recharge frequently, twice a month to be on the safe side.



Sorry to hear about your loss  It was a happy battery but fell under fire from a hungry Fire~Fly III. It is survived by a charger and spare battery.... 

I used to be worried about my three RCR123 li-ion batteries but think of it this way. The cells will last at least 50 cycles when run down to the limit. Although I recharge every one to two weeks, I know the the cells will be toast after three years from age. Killing one to the limit every two weeks would mean it would take three years to kill the cells. That is how long li-ions last so I am not too worried about it. 

Your cells perfer not to be run down that hard and can have 500 to 2,000 cycles if recharged frequently. Alas, the time is against you so I highly doubt using two cells in circulation would be killed in less than three years from too many cycles. To be on the safe side, recharge once a week so the max level will always be really to sear your retinas with output. 

Two years from now I expect to see 1500mAH RCR123 li-ion cells... that would obsolete your 750's so advancing technology is always something to watch. If you have a volt meter, I would recharge when the resting voltage is 3.7V or below to give that extra ummph and runtime on max and to keep the cell happy. Recharge it once a week if not using a meter and you should have years of use.


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## GhostReaction (May 28, 2006)

Great advise, my batteries will now be charged every weekend .

Update on the water test. 
Didnt get to swim this past few days. BUT
I ve dropped the FF3 in the toilet bowl by accident :green: 
Cleaned it up and the internal was nice and dry.


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## GhostReaction (May 30, 2006)

The FF3 survived 2m depth! 1 lap swim and 1 lap dive. Able to perform full function and the internal remain dry :thumbsup:

FF3 in pool


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## adirondackdestroyer (Jun 3, 2006)

I was wondering why no one has done a runtime graph for this light. I just got mine in yesterday and I was wondering about the regulation and runtime of this amazing light. 

Also, how come Quickbeam hasn't done a review of the FF3 either? I think he would be impressed and it would boost sales of the FF as well.


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## Xygen (Jun 3, 2006)

adirondackdestroyer said:


> I was wondering why no one has done a runtime graph for this light. I just got mine in yesterday and I was wondering about the regulation and runtime of this amazing light.


Maybe one reason is that you have to choose a level in which you're doing the runtime-test. And as you know, the FF3 runs very hot in higher levels. So, which level do you choose???
Ok... you can apply some cooling... but does that corresponds to real world usage?


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## this_is_nascar (Jun 3, 2006)

... additionally, expect for the very lowest and very hightest settings, it's difficult for me to tell which level I'm actually one when setting up the light.


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## cd-card-biz (Jun 3, 2006)

Received my FFIII earlier this week. I'm still in awe. This light is just as amazing as everyone said it would be! The interface / setting changes are easily mastered and the higher output levels even got a "Wow!" from the little lady. And, if you keep that strobe on too long in a dark room, you'll either throw-up or start clucking like a chicken.


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## adirondackdestroyer (Jun 3, 2006)

Xygen said:


> Maybe one reason is that you have to choose a level in which you're doing the runtime-test. And as you know, the FF3 runs very hot in higher levels. So, which level do you choose???
> Ok... you can apply some cooling... but does that corresponds to real world usage?


 

Well, I think that doing a runtime test on the default settings makes the most sense. One runtime on the low setting, and one on the high setting. Since burst isn't made for long term use, that shouldn't be done. Maybe a fan should be blowing on it, but I don't think it should be placed under water or anything, because that isn't very realistic.


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## goldserve (Jun 3, 2006)

TIN. I hope you got your upgraded module soon. The level adjustment and the strobe adjustment has been slowed down so you can tell what level it is at more easily now. Cheers!


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## this_is_nascar (Jun 3, 2006)

goldserve said:


> TIN. I hope you got your upgraded module soon. The level adjustment and the strobe adjustment has been slowed down so you can tell what level it is at more easily now. Cheers!



Great. I'm hoping to see it in today's mail. I didn't realize you were doing a slow-down to the level adjustment. That's going to be great. I'll let you know when it arrives and I'll be send my other to get the same treatment. We'll square-up once all are completed.


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## Xygen (Jun 3, 2006)

I'd like to add something, but correct me if I'm wrong.

1st: The FF3 can't be used for short flashes or morse signals. Ok, you can turn it on/off/on/off. But that will make it step through its modes.

2nd: When you've reached the desired level (e.g. burst) and turn it off too quickly, you'll wonder what's going on when you turn it on minutes or hours later. It starts flashing.... You know what I mean? The FLUPic still thinks you want to change mode. There you should be a time limit. Goldserve are you listening?


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## goldserve (Jun 3, 2006)

To understand that is a technical limitation to have a time limit because there is no more power to the chip and it just stores that you want to change levels in memory. If the design of the flashlight was like the HDS or other lights where the battery was aways connected and powering the microprocessor, then it would be possible. I hope people understand that this is not my design choice but a limitation of the switching mechanism. Cheers!


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## GhostReaction (Jun 4, 2006)

Does the flupic have any indication when the batt is low? I dont want to lose another batt because the protected cut off circuit of the batt kicks in when power drained too low. The most worring part is running the FF3 in low and the batt went dead.


I ve already lost a batt and that was sad enough.


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## brightnorm (Jun 4, 2006)

I'm surprised auto shut-off killed your battery. That has happened to me several times using Pilas with no lasting effects. What batteries are you using?


Brightnorm


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## GhostReaction (Jun 4, 2006)

I m using the one supplied together with the FF3. 



brightnorm said:


> I'm surprised auto shut-off killed your battery. That has happened to me several times using Pilas with no lasting effects. What batteries are you using?
> 
> 
> Brightnorm


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## goldserve (Jun 4, 2006)

That was a freak accident and the low voltage cut-off should not kill. Maybe if you talk to AW, he'll set you up with another battery.


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## lightrod (Jun 4, 2006)

I'm sure this is an old question --- but why does the FF3 'flicker" (looks like a strobe on my ceiling fans) especially at lower settings?


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## goldserve (Jun 4, 2006)

It is using PWM to give the low brightness setting.


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## Xygen (Jun 4, 2006)

goldserve said:


> It is using PWM to give the low brightness setting.


Why PWM? Why not like the Gladius is dimming? What's the advantage/disadvantage?http://www.dict.cc/?s=advantage


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## goldserve (Jun 4, 2006)

OWM dimming provides consistient color and no color shift at low levels.


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## Lynxis (Jun 4, 2006)

lightrod said:


> I'm sure this is an old question --- but why does the FF3 'flicker" (looks like a strobe on my ceiling fans) especially at lower settings?


 
Haven't noticed any flicker in my lower settings, which I tend to use mostly.
Whether a battery is fully juiced-up or has run-down...
All light-level settings are consistant...


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## lightrod (Jun 4, 2006)

Same here - I cannot see the flickering without help - e.g. shining on a ceiling fan and seeing a strobe effect. Pretty wild when I first saw it! In normal use I think the pulse frequency is so high the eye/brain can't pick it up....


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## Lynxis (Jun 4, 2006)

lightrod said:


> Same here - I cannot see the flickering without help - e.g. shining on a ceiling fan and seeing a strobe effect. Pretty wild when I first saw it! In normal use I think the pulse frequency is so high the eye/brain can't pick it up....


 
Nope, at level 1,2,3 for example, I can't see any flickering when
I am it at the white ceiling I have around the house.
Even if I try to look for this...


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## Xygen (Jun 4, 2006)

Lynxis said:


> Nope, at level 1,2,3 for example, I can't see any flickering when
> I am it at the white ceiling I have around the house.
> Even if I try to look for this...


Even not when shaking the light very fast?


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## lightrod (Jun 4, 2006)

Shine on the moving blades of a ceiling fan if you have one - I think you'll see the strobing effect. It's most noticable at the metal base of the blades, especially if the metal is shiny. And especially if you have another light to compare to. Maybe any fan would do the trick.


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## goldserve (Jun 4, 2006)

You really can't see PWM unless you are waving your hand infront of it or shining it on moving objects. The effect is quite cool actually! Doesn't bother me!


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## Lynxis (Jun 5, 2006)

Xygen said:


> Even not when shaking the light very fast?


 
Haven't been shaking the light around...
Just using it as a normal flashlight, indoors/outdoors at low levels
and it appears to be solid to my eyes...
The PWM is doing it's thing, ie; preserving the white nature of Luxeon
when dimming.


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## lightrod (Jun 8, 2006)

I keep "playing" with this light! Not noticable in normal use, but with moving objects (either the light or what it's shining on), the effects seen with the PWM are cool! It's like having a pocket strobe. 

For no really good reason - I am wondering what the pulse frequency is, and is it a very steady frequency that's the same light to light and over time for a given light? In other the words is the FF3 in fact not just a flashlight but a reliable single frequency strobe? (who knows - I may need to set or measure a rotational speed on something to save my life one day.... can't be too careful you know ).


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## atm (Jun 8, 2006)

I do notice the strobing a lot, but it's rarely offputting. Having said that, given the choice I'd certainly choose not to have the pulsing (comparing to lowest on Gladius for eg), but the FF3 is such an awesome little light it really doesn't detract from it for me.

Andrew


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## Planterz (Jun 8, 2006)

I really like the fact that with PWM "dimming" you don't get the tint shitf you do if you underdrive it to dim. I'll be honest though, the flicker on low is the primary reason I still carry my CR2 Ion on my keychain rather than my Jil Intelli. That's only because I use the low for up-close things like finding the keyhole on the door, and the flicker is a bit annoying that close. The flicker doesn't bother me at all for other "normal" use like walking around the house in the dark.


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## goldserve (Jun 8, 2006)

I need one or two people to send me back the FFIII modle for a custom programming. The charge is $10 for express post back to the US with tracking.

What you get is improved strobe effect and PWM rate at 2 x the current rate so the hand effect is barely noticable at even the low levels.

Please e-mail me at goldserve AT gmail DOT com


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## Lebkuecher (Jun 8, 2006)

email sent


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## goldserve (Jun 8, 2006)

Replied.


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## lightrod (Jun 8, 2006)

goldserve said:


> I need one or two people to send me back the FFIII modle for a custom programming. The charge is $10 for express post back to the US with tracking.
> 
> What you get is improved strobe effect and PWM rate at 2 x the current rate so the hand effect is barely noticable at even the low levels.
> 
> Please e-mail me at goldserve AT gmail DOT com


 
So what_ is_ the standard pulse rate? Can you tell me?


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## goldserve (Jun 8, 2006)

The standard pwm rate is around 100 hertz. I've increased it to around 200 but it doesn't make that big of a difference. Better I guess. I've been told the upgraded strobe effect is better than the current one.

I think it will go under the name FluPIC V2.2. Cheers!


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## photonhoer (Jul 18, 2006)

Goldserve

Could you summarize the final parameters for v 2.2?

Many thanks.


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## goldserve (Jul 18, 2006)

Search "Flupic V2.2" Full list of changes!


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## lightrod (Jul 22, 2006)

After a good deal of measurement ("playing") with my Firefly-III and Meterman LM631 lightmeter I will do a data dump here. I may add to it in the future but I think I'm about spent. Tried to characterize output across all variables: level, battery type, time, and beam angle. 

I feel OK about what data I can get, and although I understand and used "good" measurement practices as best I could, I am clearly not an expert or in any way "certified". That said, here goes - 

First a table for all levels for both cell types (actual measure values are in bold - other values are calculated or estimated but should be pretty accurate). Runtimes are in hours:





Note that the new verison of Flupic (version 2.2) will have 10 levels instead of the past 20 - a nice improvement IMO! Per goldserve the mapping of new to old (tabled) values are:

New Old
Level Level
1........1
2........2 
3........3
4........5
5........7
6........9
7......11
8......14
9......17
10....20

Plot of Lux at 1 meter by level (1-20) -





Runtime plots for levels 7, 15, and Burst (NOT recommended to be on Burst for more than a few minutes - but I had to know....)





Notice how flat these curves are (other than for burst) - even though this light is not regulated. I have no idea why the small "bumps" in the curves. Not enough to notice with the eye.

And finally, plots of Lux by beam angle (this was the info used to estimate Lumens using sphere surface area calculations for each "slice" cut by a 1.5 degree angle increment and multiplying area by lux, etc etc). 






Of interest is the %drop in beam output from the beam center out to the 6 degree angle. Comparing a number of lights I’ve found this metric a useful indicator of flood/spot characteristics with higher percentage drops being spot/throw type beams, low percentage being flood/spill type beams and middle percentages being middle ground. As comparison to several lights for drop at 6 degrees, starting with the "throwiest":
Inova XO3: 83%
Peak Rainier: 70%
Peak Caribbean: 70%
Amilite Neo: 60%
Orb Raw Ns: 55% (Joker reflector)
*Firefly III: 48%
*Arc AAA-P: 30%
The FF3's ~50% drop puts it in a good balance of spot and flood, which I consider to be a strength for EDC.

Oh - I don't think I said it, but I LIKE THIS LIGHT! Small size and weight / truly pocketable (smallest of the 123 cell lights AFAIK, esp. with the pocket body which I prefer), great flexibility for output from very low to truly mind-blowing Burst (most lumens of any single cell light that's actually available AFAIK), perfect beam throw/spill balance that's usable in almost any situation, great/natural pleasing tint, excellent runtimes, interesting option with primary cells for killer runtimes if blazing output is not critical, high quality look and feel, very smooth motion / operable in one hand.

My only slight complaint it that it's not so easy to select a light level output due to so many levels and rapid sequencing - the new version of FLupic fixes that though! And FWIW the 100hz PWM has never bothered my in the least, and in fact IMO is about the coolest thing around, with many interesting effects on moving objects. The new Flupic is at ~200 hz to address some prior complaints - but those complaints weren't from me! 

That's all folks...


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## Somy Nex (Jul 22, 2006)

Excellent and impressive review there Lightrod! :thumbsup:

Huge cheers and appreciation to you for the time and effort you put into it! :bow:


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## KAM (Jul 22, 2006)

Nice one lightrod!


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## kiely23+ (Jul 22, 2006)

very :goodjob:


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## jdriller (Jul 22, 2006)

excellent stats, thanks a lot!


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## BentHeadTX (Jul 22, 2006)

:thumbsup:
Thank you very much for the information on my EDC light. Now when people ask me how long it will run, I can answer. My light is programmed for Level 2, Level 13 and burst... I agree with you, a fantastic light that screams when you want or not blind you and has a fantastic runtime. Good to know that no matter how long the night, I can have some light the entire time and it fits on my keychain.


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## windstrings (Oct 12, 2006)

It appears the FF III can only run about 40 minutes at 55 lumens?

Is that correct?...


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## jch79 (Oct 12, 2006)

42 Minutes, from Lightrod's chart... however the runtime is estimated based on the runtime measurements of burst mode and level 15.

It's interesting to note that, based on Lightrod's conclusions, going from level 20 (604 lux, 42 minutes) to burst (807 lux, 36 minutes) is an increase of 34% in lux, with only a 17% loss in runtime.


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## windstrings (Oct 12, 2006)

All things are not equal when your dealing with a "PWM" circuit that alternates the on/off of the light at frequencies not visible to the naked eye "unless you move the light as you watch it".
That circuit takes power to run.. everytime it goes on and then off and then back on, a tiny bit of power is used and wasted. 
A necessary evil I guess to have this particular technology.


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## mcmc (Oct 19, 2006)

Any photos of the FFIII after being in keychain duty for a while?


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## goldserve (Oct 19, 2006)

lightrod, that is the best and most detailed review I have seen.

The bump near the end of the curve is when the LDO regulator drops out of regulation and goes into DD. There is almost no loss in efficiency in DD mode so actually, it gets more voltage for a little while (brighter) and then slow drops off.


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## jar3ds (Oct 19, 2006)

goldserve said:


> lightrod, that is the best and most detailed review I have seen.
> 
> The bump near the end of the curve is when the LDO regulator drops out of regulation and goes into DD. There is almost no loss in efficiency in DD mode so actually, it gets more voltage for a little while (brighter) and then slow drops off.


 i've always wondered that... thanks!


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## nightshade (Oct 20, 2006)

mcmc said:


> Any photos of the FFIII after being in keychain duty for a while?



I'll try. Bunch of firsts for me. First time using wifes Digital Rebel  , first time trying to host a pic. So if it doesn't work out, please gimme some help  





The lights anodize has held up really well, especially considering the number of drops to concrete.


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## nightshade (Oct 20, 2006)

Another, new FF3 on top:


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## Whitelitee (Oct 20, 2006)

Mine is more banged up then that on key duty . I will try to post pics alittle later but I dont think my cell camera will pick out the detail..


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## highorder (Nov 16, 2006)

I just received a FF3 used from a forum member. holy crap, this is the nicest light I now own. 

from a machinists point of view, this is a work of art. the quality of manufacturing is 10/10. the threads are machined to better than class 1 tolerances. silky is the word that comes to mind. the anno is chipped off in a few spots, but this was someone elses edc for months, and now its mine. its currently on a lanyard around my neck, but I am going to make a kydex carrier for it that will also carry a spare rcr123.

kydex is very easy to work with. anyone that wants to try can find materials for pennies from www.knifekits.com. a 12"x12" sheet of kydex ban be had in 7 colors for less than $10.00. everyone should try kydex molding.

I would like to know about the sammich adapted the manual speaks of. I didnt get one. do they exist? if someone can provide a sample, or the dimensions for one, I will make them up for anyone that wants one.


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## TENMMIKE (Nov 17, 2006)

IV got one , SEND ME A PM so i dont forget and ill shoot the dims out to you.(sammi adapter).tommarrow( machinist here as well) it is a great light.


highorder said:


> I just received a FF3 used from a forum member. holy crap, this is the nicest light I now own.
> 
> from a machinists point of view, this is a work of art. the quality of manufacturing is 10/10. the threads are machined to better than class 1 tolerances. silky is the word that comes to mind. the anno is chipped off in a few spots, but this was someone elses edc for months, and now its mine. its currently on a lanyard around my neck, but I am going to make a kydex carrier for it that will also carry a spare rcr123.
> 
> ...


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