# What's the meaning of "Tactical LED Light"?



## xiaowenzu (Nov 13, 2007)

Okay, here's a rant. Just like the rest of you flashoholics, I'm frustratingly fed up with so many lights that claim to be 'tactical' when obviously they're NOT.:scowl: I'm also sick and tired of manufacturers that loosely throw around the term 'tactical' - as if a black colored flashlight automatically means a tactical light! Or how about that 'tactical' fridge light?! Ugh... :scowl: 

*1.* The true definition of a handheld tactical flashlight (as defined by Paul Kim of *Surefire*) means those that are used by special agents, S.W.AT, law enforcement, military personel, for attack and/or rescue missions. For instance, a team of FBI agents with one hand holding a gun and the other holding a flashlight, silently surrounding a warehouse of potential enemies... and then storming in to rescure hostages, gun fight etc. 

*2.* It must have a tail mounted forward switch to allow for momentary operation and preferably a twist action for constant on. The button *must* also be protruding (eg. *Surefire L5*) - this enables the user to 'signal' silently with the light, even with gloves on, which is very important as you often only use the light for fractions of a second. 

A forward clicky that makes _no_ sound when clicked - eg. *Novatac 120T*, can _also_ be a tactical light. This requirement, obviously _excludes most chinese_ lights, which are reverse clickies, and have their switch recessed, which is_* NOT*_ suitable for tactical use - bad tactile feedback. (Eg, the Fenix lights, which are far too complicated U.I and turning it on makes noises that will give away your position - hence they're not tactical lights.:shakehead)

An example of a *tactical* situation with a *tactical light*:






Below is *NOT* a tactical situation nor a tactical light (although some manufactuers would have you believe that this is a 'Tactical light' allowing nightly fridge raids to combat hunger strikes!) Lol 





An example of a true *Tactical light: *There's only a few manufacturers that make true tactical lights. *Surefire*, *Novatac* (only the 120T), and *Gladius Night-ops *are few of them. _SUREFIRE L5_ and _Novatac 120T_ shown below: Notice they all have protruding switches to allow easy activation in times of danger. They also have forward switch meachanism allowing for momentary signaling to blind suspects or alert other team members.








Below is* NOT *a tactical light: (Reverse clicky, which means it's noisy operation, doesn't allow forward momentary operation, far too complex U.I., and button shrouded by the body, which is a big NO-NO for tactical lights.) Shown here is a* Fenix* L2D-CE... *NOT* a tactical light. 




Nor is this: The bright orange clicky, and non-protruding switch is a big *NO-NO *for tactical lights. 






Anyways, rant over. I'd also like to point out that twisty lights (ie those which require a twist to turn on) are NOT tactical lights, despite what manufacturers would like to tell you. The twist action is far too cumbersome to be used in dangerous situations, and require both hands to activate.


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## ViReN (Nov 13, 2007)

> Below is *NOT* a tactical nor a tactical light (although some manufactuers would have you believe that this is a 'Tactical light' allowing nightly fridge raids to combat hunger strikes!) Lol


:nana: Good one ....


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## Marduke (Nov 13, 2007)

Most of the Fenix line is now switching to FORWARD clickies. May still not be "tactical" in the silent department, but they are no longer reverse clickies as you continue to post.


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## Curious_character (Nov 13, 2007)

*Chuckle*

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/147215

c_c


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## madecov (Nov 13, 2007)

Very Very good post.
I'm a full time Police Officer and a part time Gun dealer. Everything is marketed as tacticool.

My Surefire lights and my Gladius are absolutely tactical.

My PILA and Wolf Eyes lights are 90-95% tactical. My Pelican 7060 is just a cool flashlight. The Streamlight TLR-1 is tactical. 

It's really funny how things are marketed as tactical, like 5.11 and underarmor even have tactical underwear and socks :duh2:

If things where marketed for what they really are no one would buy them.


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## defloyd77 (Nov 13, 2007)

Tactics are basically military, swat etc. strategy, but it greatly varies as to what the application is. Bottom line a flashlight used in these situations has to be there when needed and be used as quickly as possible, having a rear switch be it clicky or momentary twist is important so there's no question where the switch is, should have a good clip at the tail end and it shouldn't make itself known it's there unless needed. As for my opinion on clickies and the whole silence thing, if you worry about being heard, you'll be seen. Also if I were in a covert mission I would find a Streamlight Stylus with red led, covert cover and sharp spot more tactical than a bright Surefire or whatever.


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## Patriot (Nov 14, 2007)

What if the term was 'defensive light' instead of 'tactical light?'

The problem is that tactical has too broad a meaning. Tactics can include planning and executing any task. Coming up with a plan to help your buddy change a tire on the side of the road can employ tactics. The general meaning of the word happens to allow it's loose usage. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical

If we try to say that if a light makes a noise, it isn't tactical then a M3 with Z48 tailcap suddenly becomes...not tactical...hmm...I don't think so. How about the street cop who's been using his magcharger for tactical activities for 10 years now? I don't think it can be defined and if someone does define it, who's going to be the authority. The problem is that we will never all agree on the meaning of what's tactical with regards to a light, knife, eyewear, or underwear.


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 14, 2007)

madecov said:


> Very Very good post.
> I'm a full time Police Officer and a part time Gun dealer. Everything is marketed as tacticool.
> 
> My Surefire lights and my Gladius are absolutely tactical.
> ...



Thanks, you're welcome! Yes, I agree.. it's ashame that many other manufacturers have skewed the original meaning of tactical, it's not what it use to be. They even call a book light a 'Tactical reading light' now, which IMO, is pretty silly. *sighs*



madecov said:


> It's really funny how things are marketed as tactical, like 5.11 and underarmor even have tactical underwear and socks :duh2:


 LMAO! 



Patriot36 said:


> What if the term was 'defensive light' instead of 'tactical light?'



I wouldn't mind if manufacturers called their lights 'defensive' because any light can be used defensively (swing it at someones head! ) But as long as they don't call it 'tactical' then it's all good. I agree that the word 'tactical' has been overused by manufacturers, and it frustrates me because the majority of the lights are *NOT* tactical. Sure, they could call their fridge light a 'tactical food light' but that's just being silly. A true handheld tactical light is what we flashaholics have long considered to be used by S.W.AT teams, special agents, military personels, etc to engage in gun fights, rescue missions, in dark environments such as warehouse, underground areas, etc. They usually have one hand holding the gun and the other holding the light (as in the photos of 1st post) There are also weapon mounted tactical lights but that's another thing. 



defloyd77 said:


> Bottom line a flashlight used in these situations has to be there when needed and be used as quickly as possible, having a rear switch be it clicky or momentary twist is important so there's no question where the switch is, should have a good clip at the tail end and it shouldn't make itself known it's there unless needed.


 Yes, a tail mounted switch is a must for tactical lights, because you don't want to fumble around to locate the side switch in the dark. Some may have clips, but that is not compulsory because many are stored in a holster.


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## KeeperSD (Nov 14, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Below is *NOT* a tactical situation nor a tactical light (although some manufactuers would have you believe that this is a 'Tactical light' allowing nightly fridge raids to combat hunger strikes!) Lol


Unfortunately this is probably the most tactical situation that a lot of guys on CPF will face - no offence intended to anyone here. 



xiaowenzu said:


> Yes, a tail mounted switch is a must for tactical lights, because you don't want to fumble around to locate the side switch in the dark. Some may have clips, but that is not compulsory because many are stored in a holster.


That all depends on your shooting method, its not very "tactical" to be using a light with a tail switch when your shooting method is based on a body mounted switch. 

Most who really need tactical lights utilise weapon mounted lights, thus ensuring two hands on the weapon when shooting


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 14, 2007)

KeeperSD said:


> Unfortunately this is probably the most tactical situation that a lot of guys on CPF will face - no offence intended to anyone here.


 Gah, you're making me hungry now! :nana: *goes and raids the fridge for a meat pie* hehe :laughing:



KeeperSD said:


> Most who really need tactical lights utilise weapon mounted lights, thus ensuring two hands on the weapon when shooting


 I agree, and that would be called a weapon-mounted tactical light - a different kind of beast.  But for a hand held tactical light, tail mounted switch is the_ *Surefire* _way to go. (no pun intended! :thumbsup


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## KeeperSD (Nov 14, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> But for a hand held tactical light, tail mounted switch is the_ *Surefire* _way to go. (no pun intended! :thumbsup


I think you missed the point, tactical by definition is 'relating to tactics' and tactics is defined as 'a planned way of doing something'. 

So if someone has been trained to shoot with a light that utilises a body switch, say the Chapman or the Ayoob method (http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/pgrfnbr/557/sesent/00), then a light that utilises a tail switch IS NOT TACTICAL for that user as it is not a planned way of doing something.


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## MikeSalt (Nov 14, 2007)

I must admit, I have become completely immune to the word 'tactical' where flashlights have been concerned. 9 times out of 10, it is meaningless salesperson jargon.

I cannot help but feel that this thread had a slight undertone of Fenix bashing, but I agree with the original poster on this particular matter.

I have a Fenix L1T V2.0 headed my way. As many of you know, this is now a proper forward clicky, which 'should' be silent in momentary operation. And as xiaowenzu point about button protrusion, the tailswitch now protrudes outside the recess, hence the fact that the L1T can no longer tailstand.

Fenix, of course are bringing out the T1 series. Let us hope that these are truly tactical, as per xiaowenzu's description. However, I believe that they will be a forward clicky, push it too far and it will make a noise and stay on (very bad in life-or-death situation). The momentary with twisty-constant on, as most Surefires have would be a better solution.


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## quatra2008 (Nov 14, 2007)

Ha is that a new fenix t1 fridge light?


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## MikeSalt (Nov 14, 2007)

quatra2008 said:


> Ha is that a new fenix t1 fridge light?


 
If they make a bad job of it, yes, it is possible that the fridge light will be more useful. I hope they do it right though.


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## LightJaguar (Nov 14, 2007)

Interesting but silly post. Tactical? In the military we had a few inside jokes that involved the word tactical. For example we designated our Electronics Technicians as “tactical ETs” so that they would not feel left out.
If anything we in the Military use is considered tactical, then by the powers vested in me I hereby declare Fenix lights as “tactical”. 
I have used my Fenix in the field and scared a few raccoons with it so they have sort of been used in a “tactical” assault.


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## Glen C (Nov 14, 2007)

Keeper, my thoughts totally on shooting methods, there is more than one shooting method, which means more than one style of light


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 14, 2007)

LightJaguar said:


> I have used my Fenix in the field and scared a few raccoons with it so they have sort of been used in a “tactical” assault.


 Hahaha I've never seen a Rocoon tact-light! Seriously, Fenix products aren't as bad as some people claim them to be, and I applaud them for switching some of their lights to forward clickies (even though they're not true tactical switches)



KeeperSD said:


> I think you missed the point, tactical by definition is 'relating to tactics' and tactics is defined as 'a planned way of doing something'.


 
Yep, I totally get what you're trying to say. There are of course many kinds of tactical lights out there, but I'd say 95% of lights marketed as 'Tactical' are NOT tactical, for any type of tactical methods at all. I can understand how someone trained in the Chapman method would not prefer a tail mounted handheld tactical light, and the same goes with those who've used weapon mounted tactical flashlight also. But a tail mounted tactical light (eg *Surefire L5*)is a tactical light for those who've not trained in these methods. All in all, you're quite right - there are more than one type of tactical lights and methods, but I guess I'm just here concentrating on a particular tactical light and trying to define what is *NOT* a tactical light.


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## Marduke (Nov 14, 2007)

So, 20 armed swat team members or combat troops in full gear moving around, switching off safeties and such aren't going to make noise, but the tiniest noise of a flashlight switch is going to give their position away and ruin the day? If the bad guy is close enough to hear the switch (and not the 20 guys in full combat gear behind it), he's close enough to be a goner as soon as he turns around. 

I say it doesn't matter if a forward clickie actually clicks, as the momentary mode is always silent. I would futher say that twist momentaries are *not* tactical, because if you want constant on light, twisting the switch could take far more time than it should (and can require two hands), and there is the chance of the tailcap being locked out and you getting no light at all.



MikeSalt said:


> I cannot help but feel that this thread had a slight undertone of Fenix bashing....



Of course it does, the OP bashes them every chance he gets, and doesn't even own one.


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## Lightraven (Nov 14, 2007)

Part of the meaning of tactics is looking at a situation and using the best tools to solve the problem and get the job done. This may not involve a flashlight, but night vision goggles or a robot, or a dog, or a helicopter or something else.

Somebody who has searched dark areas to arrest people and has combat training (rare) or experience (very rare) in darkness will have a good idea of what they want in a "tactical" flashlight. For one tactics instructor who has those qualifications (combat experience in darkness), brightness and an easily pressed switch are his most commonly mentioned points. 

Why easily pressed? Because he often sees a light cut out when a person is attempting to overcome excessive resistance on the switch and lets up the pressure enough for the light to turn off. There are a few flashlights I've owned that required a lot of thumb pressure, and in addition were excessively smooth and uniform in body diameter, making the problem worse as you pushed the light out of your fist with your thumb.


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## KeeperSD (Nov 14, 2007)

Marduke said:


> So, 20 armed swat team members or combat troops in full gear moving around, switching off safeties and such aren't going to make noise, but the tiniest noise of a flashlight switch is going to give their position away and ruin the day?


 
what about the 100 odd lumens coming out the front of the light, i think that might also be a little more of a give away than a slight click from the switch


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## Lightfantastic (Nov 14, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Below is *NOT* a tactical situation nor a tactical light (although some manufactuers would have you believe that this is a 'Tactical light' allowing nightly fridge raids to combat hunger strikes!) Lol


Of course that's not a "Tactical" light. Anyone knows it is a "Strategic" light.


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## elgarak (Nov 14, 2007)

Marduke said:


> So, 20 armed swat team members or combat troops in full gear moving around, switching off safeties and such aren't going to make noise, but the tiniest noise of a flashlight switch is going to give their position away and ruin the day? If the bad guy is close enough to hear the switch (and not the 20 guys in full combat gear behind it), he's close enough to be a goner as soon as he turns around.
> 
> I say it doesn't matter if a forward clickie actually clicks, as the momentary mode is always silent. I would futher say that twist momentaries are *not* tactical, because if you want constant on light, twisting the switch could take far more time than it should (and can require two hands), and there is the chance of the tailcap being locked out and you getting no light at all.
> 
> ...


So, you know how much sound a SWAT team makes? You believe that action movies where guns click whenever moved depict reality?

Momentary: You fail to realize that constant on is NEVER employed in tactical situations. You give away your position when the light is on. Clickies are not recommended because you can accidentally switch to constant on. It's difficult to restrain yourself from pressing too hard when under duress. The moments you need to realize your error and to switch off the light might cost you your life.

There's another consideration I see for tactical lights: A beamshape and brightness that illuminates the full body (or at least the torso) with enough light to assess all weaponry and movements.


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## jzmtl (Nov 14, 2007)

All the talk about tactical lights, how many here actually needs one? I don't even use the momentary feature on my l2t that much, most of the time it's clicked on. 

Although I do think the protrusion of the switch on l2t is too little, make momentary harder to do.


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## Marduke (Nov 15, 2007)

elgarak said:


> So, you know how much sound a SWAT team makes? You believe that action movies where guns click whenever moved depict reality?
> 
> Momentary: You fail to realize that constant on is NEVER employed in tactical situations. You give away your position when the light is on. Clickies are not recommended because you can accidentally switch to constant on. It's difficult to restrain yourself from pressing too hard when under duress. The moments you need to realize your error and to switch off the light might cost you your life.
> 
> There's another consideration I see for tactical lights: A beamshape and brightness that illuminates the full body (or at least the torso) with enough light to assess all weaponry and movements.



I have several law enforcement buddies, and I have been lucky enough to be invited to watch them train on several occasions, and listen to countless hours of their stories. So yes, I do know how much noise a Swat team makes. And yes, I do know what sound a gun makes when you take the safety off, I own a number of them. And I also know that a large portion of the time spent in "tactical" situations is spent searching basements, attics, and general dark areas of a house, which requires CONSTANT illumination.

Protruding switch? Definitely! Silent?? I think the bad guys heard someone coming when a door was kicked in and a flashbang went off....


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 15, 2007)

elgarak said:


> Momentary: You fail to realize that constant on is NEVER employed in tactical situations. You give away your position when the light is on. Clickies are not recommended because you can accidentally switch to constant on. It's difficult to restrain yourself from pressing too hard when under duress. The moments you need to realize your error and to switch off the light might cost you your life.


 
+1 I agree. I'd also like to add that, Well-trained Elite SWAT teams are as stealthy as Ninjas, if they weren't the bad guys would hear their location long before they can spring a surprise. It's also important that equipment manufacturers strive to make their products operate as silently as possible since every little sound adds up at the end. For instance a SWAT team would *NOT* use a $5 dollar reverse clickie that emits a loud CLICK-CLACK when pressed would they? 



jzmtl said:


> All the talk about tactical lights, how many here actually needs one?


 My Porsche can do 180Mph, but it's not like I'll ever drive it at that speed. Though it's good to have that capability under the bonnet! Being a *Flashoholic *is not about Sanity.



Marduke said:


> Protruding switch? Definitely! Silent?? I think the bad guys heard someone coming when a door was kicked in and a flashbang went off....


 Well, you've got be quiet before you can spring a 'flash-bang' surprise! Tada!


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## Curious_character (Nov 15, 2007)

So with all the "tactical" lights out there, 98% of flashlight users must be on SWAT teams. What's left for the rest of us who don't have the training (or attitude) to be proper "tactical" users -- just Minimags? Surely there must be _some_ lights advertised as "non-tactical" that we'd be authorized to use.

c_c


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## bspofford (Nov 15, 2007)

Tactical means that you spend a lot of money on a light and you need to have "tact" when you tell your wife.


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## BigD64 (Nov 15, 2007)

Marduke said:


> So, 20 armed swat team members or combat troops in full gear moving around, switching off safeties and such aren't going to make noise, but the tiniest noise of a flashlight switch is going to give their position away and ruin the day? If the bad guy is close enough to hear the switch (and not the 20 guys in full combat gear behind it), he's close enough to be a goner as soon as he turns around.
> 
> I say it doesn't matter if a forward clickie actually clicks, as the momentary mode is always silent. I would futher say that twist momentaries are *not* tactical, because if you want constant on light, twisting the switch could take far more time than it should (and can require two hands), and there is the chance of the tailcap being locked out and you getting no light at all.
> 
> ...


 
A SWAT team making an entry isn't always as quiet as they'd like to be, but as a 20 year veteran police officer who has had to search dark buildings for armed felons without the benefit of a team. I can attest to need for a silent switch. There is nothing more aggravating then a small noise when you are trying to be silent and not get your a** shot.


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## MikeLip (Nov 15, 2007)

Counter-rant;

This whole thread is ridiculous. There is no point in getting bent out of shape over some marketing-speak.

Definition per Merriam-Webster;

tactic
4 entries found.

tactic[1,noun]tactic[2,adjective]-tactictactic 

Main Entry: 1tac·tic 
Pronunciation: \ˈtak-tik\ 
Function: noun 
Etymology: New Latin tactica, from Greek taktikē, from feminine of taktikos 
Date: 1640 
1 : a device for accomplishing an end 
2 : a method of employing forces in combat 

So, ANY light can be tactical. A plastic $2.99 Eveready can be tactical is it allows you to accomplish your end. It doesn't even have to be black!

Employing force? No reason why that same light can't be used to aim your Uzi or illuminate your grenade victim.

Yeah yeah yeah - I know that's not how Surefire or Jeff Cooper define it. But they RE-defined it to suit their purposes in the first place. That doesn't give them ownership of the word you know, or even narrow the definition. So the marketing people are perfectly justified in using the word if they like.

As far as I'm concerned, tactical is what gets the job done.


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 15, 2007)

In summary of this thread so far.... The word 'tactical' as defined by the oxford dictionary generally means something which employs tactics... but that definition hardly satisfies us flashoholics in the way we define a tactical flashlight. Paul Kim of Surefire defines it as in the first post.

Dictionaries are great but they rarely serve to completely define or cover the wide subject field, especially one that is niched as Flashlights. 



BigD64 said:


> There is nothing more aggravating then a small noise when you are trying to be silent and not get your a** shot.


 
HAHA! Tell me about it! I've been through times where a 'click' will put my life in danger.. people have no idea how noisey it can sound at night.


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## bspofford (Nov 15, 2007)

MikeLip said:


> Counter-rant;
> 
> This whole thread is ridiculous.
> Etymology: New Latin tactica, from Greek taktikē, from feminine of taktikos
> ...


 
Etymology is fun, and I now wonder what the relationship between "tactical" and "testicle" might be.


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## Patriot (Nov 15, 2007)

MikeLip said:


> As far as I'm concerned, tactical is what gets the job done.


 
That pretty much sums things up.


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## Lobo (Nov 15, 2007)

MikeLip said:


> As far as I'm concerned, tactical is what gets the job done.



Here I was about to make a long rant about tacticool, mallninjas, what people actually use, reliability bla bla bla.

Not that the rest of Mikelips post wasn't spot on, it was.
But that single quoted sentence actually says all about the matter that has to be said.


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## MikeLip (Nov 15, 2007)

Lobo said:


> Here I was about to make a long rant about tacticool, mallninjas, what people actually use, reliability bla bla bla.
> 
> Not that the rest of Mikelips post wasn't spot on, it was.
> But that single quoted sentence actually says all about the matter that has to be said.




Mallninjas? MALLNINJAS? What the heck is a mallninja?


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## Marduke (Nov 15, 2007)

MikeLip said:


> Mallninjas? MALLNINJAS? What the heck is a mallninja?



Mall rent-a-cops probably


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## Lobo (Nov 15, 2007)

MikeLip said:


> Mallninjas? MALLNINJAS? What the heck is a mallninja?



Sorry, should be mall ninja, we don't separate words like that in swedish. 

And if you wonder about the actual word.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mall+ninja
which I believe originated from this old thread at glocktalk:
http://www.geocities.com/suketh.geo/gun/mall_ninja_1.html
And another fun read.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1670423/posts


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## LightJaguar (Nov 15, 2007)

MikeLip said:


> Counter-rant;
> 
> This whole thread is ridiculous. There is no point in getting bent out of shape over some marketing-speak.
> 
> ...


 
That's exactly right. In the Military Maglites and the cheap plastic flashights are the ones used the most. The Marines like nothing more then to break down a door and clear a room by sending a few guys in. On an interesting note I was chatting with a few military guys from the Replublic of Georgia. We were chatting about the "tactics" we use to clear a certain place. We told them that we were trained to spare innocent people as much as posbile. They told us that their tactics involved throwing a granade in whatever place they were trying to clear. They were not worried one bit if innocent people died or not. 
Guess they really don't have any need for a "tactical" flashlight.


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## woodrow (Nov 15, 2007)

xiaowenzu, I think your thread has some good points. I am not a LEO, but have had to point a gun at someone before, and having a good "tactical" light does make a difference.

For 98% of us civilians and even law enforcement, I think that 80% of the lights out there well get the job done and illuminate a target well. That being said there may be a few better lights than others. I would say that the Pelican 7060 is a great Tactical light in my opinion.

All seriousness aside... so next you are going to tell me that my Ninja flashlight was not actually used by real Ninjas in feudal japan...

And... for those of you who have never seen it...the greatest S.T.A.R.S tactical light (ever!) review can be found here:
http://www.outdooridiots.com/features/200704/lilbratztorchreview/lilbratztorchreview.asp

I seriously advise you to check it out...it might just save your life.


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## FASTCAR (Nov 15, 2007)

"The true definition of a handheld tactical flashlight (as defined by Paul Kim of *Surefire"*


*Because Paul Kim said this..does it make it correct? This is not a flame. Im just saying maybee others define it differently.*


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## Lightraven (Nov 15, 2007)

Different tactics call for different tools. Lights may be mounted to guns, helicopters, robots, mirrors/cameras, shields, armored vehicles or boats. They could be infrared. They could be towed generator lights. They may be flares parachuted in from a mortar. They could be chemical light sticks.

"Tactics drive the gear train."--Pat Rogers, USMC, NYPD ESU retired, firearms instructor to military and law enforcement.


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## woodrow (Nov 15, 2007)

FASTCAR said:


> "The true definition of a handheld tactical flashlight (as defined by Paul Kim of *Surefire"*
> 
> 
> *Because Paul Kim said this..does it make it correct? This is not a flame. Im just saying maybee others define it differently.*


 
I never thought I would do this on a Fastcar post, but..

+1


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## zpaulg (Nov 15, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Thanks, you're welcome! Yes, I agree.. it's ashame that many other manufacturers have skewed the original meaning of tactical, it's not what it use to be. They even call a book light a 'Tactical reading light' now, which IMO, is pretty silly. *sighs*
> 
> LMAO!
> 
> ...


 

I can safely say that some of the best times I've ever had involved fumbling about in the dark..........and I'm not alone!!!..........


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## woodrow (Nov 15, 2007)

zpaulg said:


> I can safely say that some of the best times I've ever had involved fumbling about in the dark..........and I'm not alone!!!..........


 
Sure you were not alone....


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 15, 2007)

Sure, we also have helicopter mounted tactical lights, weapon mounted ones, and tank mounted tactical lights, but those are different kinds of tactical lights. But we flashoholics are more interested in the *hand held* tactical flashlights here. 



FASTCAR said:


> *Because Paul Kim said this..does it make it correct? *


 No, but his definition of a tactical flashlight is more valid than those manufacturers who unashamedly call their fridge light a 'tactical' light to battle hunger. :laughing:


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 15, 2007)

woodrow said:


> xiaowenzu, I think your thread has some good points. I am not a LEO, but have had to point a gun at someone before, and having a good "tactical" light does make a difference.
> 
> I would say that the Pelican 7060 is a great Tactical light in my opinion.


 Leave those sleeky Ninjas alone! :thumbsup: hehe, I agree, the _*Pelican 7060*_, is a trusty Tactical Light, with it's momentary forward protruding tail switch (a must for tactical lights), it's great for LEOs, and the likes. :twothumbs

The *Pelican 7060,* a Tactical light used by LEOs





Below: Not quite a tactical light 





Nor is this:


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 15, 2007)

Sorry double post, please remove!


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## KeeperSD (Nov 16, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> with it's momentary protruding forward tail switch *(a must for tactical lights)*


According to who? I have already stated reasons when this will not be the case yet you continue to state it as fact. Because a manufacturer uses this as a sales pitch (and this is nothing against SF or Paul Kim) then it must be gospel? 

I think the 7060 could probably be described as the ultimate "tactical" light since it can be used with whatever method you light. BTW i don't think that is a picture of the 7060


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## Marduke (Nov 16, 2007)

Funny, the switch on the 7060 doesn't protrude at all.... Actually, I think the L2T switch protrudes more.....


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## NA8 (Nov 16, 2007)

Personally I want a forward clicky: momentary with click on, click off. If you want a twist constant on with a lockout unscrew, I've got no problem with that, but it's not what I want. My L1Tv2 is all the tactical light I need. Then again, I don't have a subscription to Soldier of Fortune magazine, and Blackwater just reminds me of OIL.


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## chiphead (Nov 16, 2007)

One word here...marketing! Thank you for saying it like it has to be sayed.

chiphead


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 16, 2007)

chiphead said:


> One word here...marketing! Thank you for saying it like it has to be sayed.


 I agree. My momma, has always told me never trust anyone who's after your wallet, and more times than once she was right. 



KeeperSD said:


> I have already stated reasons when this will not be the case yet you continue to state it as fact.


 Well then, I guess at times, I do call my fridge light a _tactical-hunger-busting-light!_ Although my SWAT friends would probably laugh their heads off at me, for being so silly before pulling out their *Surefire L5:nana:*



KeeperSD said:


> because a manufacturer uses this as a sales pitch (and this is nothing against SF or Paul Kim) then it must be gospel?


 
I'm glad we agree with the basic premise of this thread here... we flashoholics are simply sick, frustrated and fed up with countless manufacturers who use the word 'tactical' as a sales pitch for the lights, when obviously there's nothing tactical about it. And as a flashoholic, it has always been my best interest to separate the real deals, from the myths. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. :thumbsup:



Marduke said:


> Funny, the switch on the 7060 doesn't protrude at all....


 
It does protrude, although not as far as the Surefire L5, for example. It has a tail mounted, momentary forward switch, suitable for tactical operations...


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## Lobo (Nov 16, 2007)

@ Xiaowenzu

Quick question. Is the Fenix L1T/L2T "tactical"?


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 16, 2007)

Lobo said:


> @ Xiaowenzu


 Well Lobo, no offense, but I don't want to go into another *Surefire* vs 'X-brand' debate here - there are far too many on this forum already... just because *Surefire* makes some of the best light, it doesn't help manufacturers when they are always compared against them. It's like saying 'Oh Surefireis the standard, and we must all measure against the standard'. 

However to answer your question, I shall quote another member's previous post, who's has a more eloquent description than I:



elgarak said:


> _"Momentary: You fail to realize that constant on is NEVER employed in tactical situations. You give away your position when the light is on. Clickies are not recommended because you can accidentally switch to constant on. It's difficult to restrain yourself from pressing too hard when under duress. The moments you need to realize your error and to switch off the light might cost you your life." _


 
I guess we should all take manufacturers claim of the word 'tactical' with a grain of salt. That being said, I confidently believe the Fenix L1T/L2T would allow a good 'tactical' raid on the fridge at night, despite being unsuitable for SWAT, FBI, Military operations.


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## Lobo (Nov 16, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Well Lobo, no offense, but I don't want to go into another *Surefire* vs 'X-brand' debate here - there are far too many on this forum already... just because *Surefire* makes some of the best light, it doesn't help manufacturers when they are always compared against them. It's like saying 'Oh Surefireis the standard, and we must all measure against the standard'.
> 
> However to answer your question, I shall quote another member's previous post, who's has a more eloquent description than I:
> 
> ...



Well, it's pretty much YOU who have made this a Surefire vs X-brand thread from the beginning...

As said 100 times before, tactical is defined by how you use your light, not the brand. Ask any real "operator" (my, how I love all those buzzwords).
And nobody has said that all the other manufacturers are comparing against Surfire. 

I will continue bearing with your definition of "tactical" just for arguments sake. By your statement about constant on, you have dismissed about half of Surefire's line of lights from being "tactical". Do you really think that your own Surefire U2 doesn't have more "tactical" uses than nightly fridge raids.... 
Hell, my old Ledfinity is more "tactical" than your U2 by that definition.

I really don't know why I bother with you, since you're clearly a way over the top brand loyalist.
And you might also ask yourself why this topic upsets you so much...

And I think I'm gonna tell my 2 LEO-friends that there is a guy on an internetforum about flashlights who says that the ASP-batonlights they are issued from the Swedish Police aren't tactical enough for them. Bet at least they'll get a laugh from it.


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## MikeLip (Nov 16, 2007)

KeeperSD said:


> what about the 100 odd lumens coming out the front of the light, i think that might also be a little more of a give away than a slight click from the switch



You know, I was just wondering about that. What the heck difference does it make if there is a little click, when a microsecond later there is this huge flood of light? The thing could explode for all the difference the noise makes!


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## Marduke (Nov 16, 2007)

MikeLip said:


> You know, I was just wondering about that. What the heck difference does it make if there is a little click, when a microsecond later there is this huge flood of light? The thing could explode for all the difference the noise makes!



+ 1x10^9

Exactly! Unless you're after blind badguys, which is more noticeable? A pin drop of a click, or a sudden retina scorching light?


But I still say just moving around will give you away long before a clicking sound if you're trying to be stealthy. I don't care how careful you are, guys in full "tactical" gear aren't whisper quiet.

Also, the MagLite has been the go-to tactical light for hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of law enforcement officers around the world for 20 years, and suddenly it's not "tactical" anymore?


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## clipse (Nov 16, 2007)

This is a pretty long thread for only two pages. I didn't read through the whole thing but I did want to put my two cents in. 

Tactical is NOT they way you say it is. Tactical has alot to do with TACT. Me carrying a Surefire L7 on belt in a business casual environment is not very tactful.....hence no very tactical. For the same reason my CCW is not a H&K Mark23 or what ever that Tacticool gun is. I carry a S&W 642 because its is easily hidden....or in other words is tactful......hence it is tactical. 

Tactical situations are situations where tact is needed, not just situations that FBI, SWAT, or LEO's will get into. 

Just FYI Here is the actual definition of 'tactical'

tac·ti·cal /ˈtæk



tɪ



kəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[*tak*-ti-k_uh_



l] –adjective 1.of or pertaining to tactics, esp. military or naval tactics. 2.characterized by skillful tactics or adroit maneuvering or procedure: tactical movements. 3.of or pertaining to a maneuver or plan of action designed as an expedient toward gaining a desired end or temporary advantage. 4.expedient; calculated. 5.prudent; politic.


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 16, 2007)

Lobo said:


> Well, it's pretty much YOU who have made this a Surefire vs X-brand thread from the beginning...
> 
> As said 100 times before, tactical is defined by how you use your light, not the brand. Ask any real "operator" (my, how I love all those buzzwords).
> And nobody has said that all the other manufacturers are comparing against Surfire.
> ...


 
No, I never made this a *Surefire* vs X-brand thread, since I was merely using a examples to illustrate points of the topic. I obviously wasn't comparing brand vs brand.

Well, 'dictionarily' speaking, I suppose the word 'tactical' means something which 'employs tactics' but that definition doesn't satisfy us Flashoholics especially when we're dealing with a niche topic such as flashlights. Dictionary meanings are quite broad. 

Anyways, for instance, I could swing my 6V Lantern _'tactically', _knocking out the burglar's knife.... but I would *NOT *call that flashlight a _'Tactical'_ light, just as I would *NOT* call my computer mouse a '_weapon', _even though I've been known to deliberately place it on the floor to have someone slip on it! So even though you can call the computer mouse a _'weapon'_ it really isn't - machine guns, grenades, and rocket launchers *ARE *weapons. 
Same goes with flashlights - majority of which are *NOT* Tactical lights - it's just a silly buzzword for sneaky manufacturers to dupe us. Buzzwords -_ "Tactical fridge light", "tactical nail clipping light", "tactical nose picking light" _bwahahaha__

However, Lobo, I do agree with you that NOT all Surefires are tactical lights - the U2 is a great light, but my SWAT friends would never use it. 



MikeLip said:


> You know, I was just wondering about that. What the heck difference does it make if there is a little click, when a microsecond later there is this huge flood of light? The thing could explode for all the difference the noise makes!


 
Probably something to do with the fact that light itself is soundless, but a click is *not* soundless.


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## Lobo (Nov 16, 2007)

Marduke said:


> But I still say just moving around will give you away long before a clicking sound if you're trying to be stealthy. I don't care how careful you are, guys in full "tactical" gear aren't whisper quiet.



Ninjas on the other hand, especially mall ninjas, are all quietlike...



Marduke said:


> Also, the MagLite has been the go-to tactical light for hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of law enforcement officers around the world for 20 years, and suddenly it's not "tactical" anymore?



Exactly!


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## MikeLip (Nov 16, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Probably something to do with the fact that light itself is soundless, but a click is *not* soundless.



Again, so what? Both sound and light give position away. Both come from the same place. Unless your opponent is shooting at you while wearing a blindfold, it won't matter.


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## PhantomPhoton (Nov 16, 2007)

LEOs in my area haven't used Mags for several years. (I cant speak for every little department but in general I believe this to be accurate) Streamlights have been default standard issue to many in my neck of the woods for 10+ years. Surefires have been quite common too, especially 6Ps.

"Tactical" has very little meaning anymore, though I do have my own definition of what it is *not*. Defining what it is seems to be more of a problem.


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## MikeLip (Nov 16, 2007)

Lobo said:


> Ninjas on the other hand, especially mall ninjas, are all quietlike...
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly!



As opposed to their nemeis, the mall rat! Mall rats congregate in large noisy groups.


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## Marduke (Nov 16, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Probably something to do with the fact that light itself is soundless, but a click is *not* soundless.



But is much easier to SEE a blinding light than HEAR a very small sound. Using your logic, you'd be no worse off wearing a neon green tactical jumpsuit, as long as your flashlight was silent as a mouse. Now, where to buy a neon green tactical jumpsuit...


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## Lobo (Nov 16, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> No, I never made this a *Surefire* vs X-brand thread, since I was merely using a examples to illustrate points of the topic. I obviously wasn't comparing brand vs brand.


 
I've had the dubious pleasure of reading a lot of your threads, and ALL of those I've read, are bashing Fenix or chinese lights in general. So if this wasn't another bash-thread, why didnt you just compare (again, by your definition, not mine) the "tactical" Surefires against the "not so tactical only suited for fridge-raids" Surefires, like your U2. Would have gotten across your point so much easier without stirring up any controversy. 



xiaowenzu said:


> Well, 'dictionarily' speaking, I suppose the word 'tactical' means something which 'employs tactics' but that definition doesn't satisfy us Flashoholics especially when we're dealing with a niche topic such as flashlights. Dictionary meanings are quite broad.



If your going to chose a definition by either a dictionary or a manufacturer, I'll go with the dictionary every time. 



xiaowenzu said:


> Anyways, for instance, I could swing my 6V Lantern _'tactically', _knocking out the burglar's knife.... but I would *NOT *call that flashlight a _'Tactical'_ light, just as I would *NOT* call my computer mouse a '_weapon', _even though I've been known to deliberately place it on the floor to have someone slip on it! So even though you can call the computer mouse _'weapon'_ it really isn't - machine guns, grenades, and rocket launchers *ARE *weapons.
> Same goes with flashlights - majority of which are *NOT* Tactical lights - it's just a buzzword for sneaky manufacturers to dupe us. Buzzwords -_ "Tactical fridge light", "tactical nail clipping light", "tactical nose picking light" _



There you go, finally you got it. The word tactical used by ALL manufacturers is lame. It's just a word, and I have no idea why you get so upset about it.


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## Marduke (Nov 16, 2007)

MikeLip said:


> Again, so what? Both sound and light give position away. Both come from the same place. Unless your opponent is shooting at you while wearing a blindfold, it won't matter.



I got it!! Make the badguy close his eyes with this, then he has to fight back on the sound of your switch alone... 

It all makes sense now...


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## Marduke (Nov 16, 2007)

I also move to argue that a fridge light IS indeed TACTICAL. It fits all the aforementioned criteria. It protrudes .5-.75 inches beyond the body, certainly be operated with gloved hands, is purely momentary, and does not make any sort of clicking sound. In the middle of the night during a snack run, it is certainly blinding to an attacker (a.k.a. late night snacker). 

Did I miss anything?


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 16, 2007)

Okay, enough of the rats and Mall Ninjas! *he says as he takes off his Ninja Balaclava* 



MikeLip said:


> Again, so what? Both sound and light give position away. Both come from the same place. Unless your opponent is shooting at you while wearing a blindfold, it won't matter.


 hmm... I guess that explains why the SWAT teams are opting for those really loud reverse clickys on their flashlights these days. They want to give away their positions! *CLICK CLACK*! :nana:



Lobo said:


> Would have gotten across your point so much easier without stirring up any controversy.


 Lobo, I love you like a brother, believe you me, and everything else merely a misunderstanding of our differences - Hey we're all flashoholics here! hehehe :thumbsup:



Lobo said:


> If your going to chose a definition by either a dictionary or a manufacturer, I'll go with the dictionary every time.


 I'd go with neither, but the view of the flashlight community.  



Lobo said:


> There you go, finally you got it. The word tactical used by ALL manufacturers is lame.


 Well, I wouldn't say ALL manufacturers because some are worthy of their claim, but definitely the majority who claim their lights as 'tactical' are lame.  Like everyone here, I'm just darn sick and tired of manufacturers throwing out the word 'tactical' when clearly their light is not. It does nothing but skew the meaning of the word, and as a flashoholic, we're here to set things right.


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## Marduke (Nov 16, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> hmm... I guess that explains why the SWAT teams are opting for those really loud reverse clickys on their flashlights these days. They want to give away their positions! *CLICK CLACK*! :nana:



Nobody said anything about reverse clickies here. The rest of us are arguing for forward clickies, with for some odd reason you apparently don't think is "tactical".....


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## wishywashy7 (Nov 16, 2007)

Marduke said:


> I also move to argue that a fridge light IS indeed TACTICAL. It fits all the aforementioned criteria. It protrudes .5-.75 inches beyond the body, certainly be operated with gloved hands, is purely momentary, and does not make any sort of clicking sound. In the middle of the night during a snack run, it is certainly blinding to an attacker (a.k.a. late night snacker).
> 
> Did I miss anything?



:lolsign:


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## jzmtl (Nov 16, 2007)

Aww come on, you guys should've figured out that we have a resident surefire troll here by now! :lolsign:


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## Lobo (Nov 16, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Lobo, I love you like a brother, believe you me, and everything else merely a misunderstanding of our differences - Hey we're all flashoholics here! hehehe :thumbsup:




Aw, when you put it like that, I can't stay mad at you. I officially give up.
Let's agree that we disagree. A LOT.


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## Lobo (Nov 16, 2007)

jzmtl said:


> Aww come on, you guys should've figured out that we have a resident surefire troll here by now! :lolsign:



Yeah, but it's still fun!


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 16, 2007)

Marduke said:


> Nobody said anything about reverse clickies here.


 Oh, you know I was being sarcastic! Of course reverse clickies are NOT tactical. duh! 



Marduke said:


> I also move to argue that a fridge light IS indeed TACTICAL. It fits all the aforementioned criteria. It protrudes .5-.75 inches beyond the body, certainly be operated with gloved hands, is purely momentary, and does not make any sort of clicking sound. In the middle of the night during a snack run, it is certainly blinding to an attacker (a.k.a. late night snacker).


 
LMAO!, I love your Sarcasm more than mine.  



jzmtl said:


> Aww come on, you guys should've figured out that we have a resident surefire troll here by now! :lolsign:


  Lobo, wasn't bashing Surefire... he never said anything bad about Surefire (on this thread).


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## MikeLip (Nov 16, 2007)

Marduke said:


> I got it!! Make the badguy close his eyes with this, then he has to fight back on the sound of your switch alone...
> 
> It all makes sense now...



Ah, my tax dollars at work. I feel so much safer knowing Homeland Security is on the job!


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## Joe Talmadge (Nov 16, 2007)

KeeperSD said:


> I think you missed the point, tactical by definition is 'relating to tactics' and tactics is defined as 'a planned way of doing something'.
> 
> So if someone has been trained to shoot with a light that utilises a body switch, say the Chapman or the Ayoob method (http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/pgrfnbr/557/sesent/00), then a light that utilises a tail switch IS NOT TACTICAL for that user as it is not a planned way of doing something.



True enough, and to think you posted the right answer _right there on the first page of responses!_. Surefire created the small tactical light market, both the company as a whole and its leaders such as Paul Kim are to be respected and listened to as far as this topic. However, there are other experts, just as authoritative, who have come to different conclusions, and the position that "a tactical light is what Paul Kim says it is" is not smart ... although again I'd agree that Paul deserves to be listened to carefully. To xiaowenzu: With all due respect, xiaowenzu, your position betrays the rigidness and zealotry of the completely untrained, who has found "the answer" in one particular authority. 

Regarding the topic as a whole ... ten years ago called, it wants its thread back. The term "tactical" became a loose marketing term years ago, I'm shocked anyone still gets worked up over it.


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## Lobo (Nov 16, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Lobo, wasn't bashing Surefire... he never said anything bad about Surefire (on this thread).



I don't know if you're operating on a stratospheric level of sarcasm here, but...
I think he meant you.


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## WadeF (Nov 16, 2007)

I might have to concede to xiaowenzu on this one. In Jurassic Park, when those idiot kids decided to pull out a high power spot light and shine it at the T-Rex, to their dismay, it did not have momentary on! They had to fiddle and fumble around with it to try and turn it off! That T-Rex almost had them for dinner if Jeff Goldblum didn't come to their aid. So when dealing with a hungry T-Rex, a tactical light with a momentary on is a must! Unless you need to throw the light to get the T-Rex to chase it, then you may want a forward clicky, especially if you only have the use of one hand and wouldn't be able to easily twist the tailcap for constant on.


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## orbital (Nov 16, 2007)

+


Just wait until the 'Super Tactical' lights come out....


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## Marduke (Nov 16, 2007)

orbital said:


> Just wait until the 'Super Tactical' lights come out....



"Super fun fantastic tactical flashlight!!!"


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## 4sevens (Nov 16, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Okay, here's a rant. Just like the rest of you flashoholics, I'm frustratingly fed up with so many lights that claim to be 'tactical' when obviously they're NOT.:scowl:
> 
> ...
> 
> Below is* NOT *a tactical light: (Reverse clicky, which means it's noisy operation, doesn't allow forward momentary operation, far too complex U.I., and button shrouded by the body, which is a big NO-NO for tactical lights.) Shown here is a* Fenix* L2D-CE... *NOT* a tactical light.



It's quite amazing that you take every opportunity to bash Fenix.
You know the L2D never claimed to be tactical light. At least
not the manufacturer nor I. Your complaint that flashlights that
claim to be tactical but actually aren't doesn't apply to the L2D.
Do you see the flaw in your logic? 

Now this bad boy on the other hand....




:naughty:


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## defloyd77 (Nov 16, 2007)

Marduke said:


> "Super fun fantastic tactical flashlight!!!"



I believe the term is funtastical.


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## Joe Talmadge (Nov 16, 2007)

> and button shrouded by the body, which is a big NO-NO for tactical lights.



'course, SF has put out tacticals w/ shrouds & clickies. Uh-oh. Bus error ... core dumped


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## orbital (Nov 16, 2007)

+



defloyd77 said:


> I believe the term is funtastical.



Don't forget the Extra Primary Funtastical 2


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 17, 2007)

Well, the Fenix T1 bright colored GITD button, is akin to wearing a neon jacket, with the words painted in fluorescent, saying “Hey, I’m here… _SHOOT ME_!”   So a big NO-NO for tactical. 

Besides, it’s deep-set clicky switch, instead of twist for constant on, is difficult to press without accidently hitting the '3 prongs' and can easily give away one’s position because it’s difficult to regulate the amount of pressure applied during times of stress. You can easily press too hard, and there’ll be a loud ‘CLICK CLACK’! noise.   
:kiss:
IMO, this topic becoming very intersting! This discussion is much more than about *Surefire*, *Pelican*, or *Gladius*, even though they do make tactical lights. 
Nor is it about *Fenix*, because if we include every manufacturer who does NOT make tactical lights we’d be getting off topic. It’s just a general rant on the word ‘tactical lights’, and to engage people in the discussion. :candle:


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 17, 2007)

Like everyone, I too am annoyed at lights, which describe themselves as being ‘tactical lights’ when they’re obviously not. It just skews the meaning of the terminology for the average Joe. Next thing you know, manufacturers will start calling their $2 plastic light, as *“*_Weapon lights_*” *simply because it can be used to_ ‘fight the darkness’_.. and they’d use the dictionary definition as their defence.  So, but where does that leave the actual *REAL* *weapon-lights* that are mounted on firearms & used in combat by SWAT teams, FBI agents, and military operations, etc? 

It just confuses everyone; now the same thing is happening to the word ‘tactical’ but thankfully we flashoholics are smart enough to know the REAL deals from the wannabes.  Hey, I could use my Pen-light to pick my nose using great _tactics_, but heck I’d never dare to call it a ‘tactical light’ – it’s simply not worthy of that honor.


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## KeeperSD (Nov 17, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Besides, it’s deep-set clicky switch, instead of twist for constant on, is difficult to press without accidently hitting the '3 prongs' and can easily give away one’s position because it’s difficult to regulate the amount of pressure applied during times of stress. You can easily press too hard, and there’ll be a loud ‘CLICK CLACK’! noise.


There is another thread that you comment on the "tactile" feel of your Novatec, and previously in this thread you have mentioned that a Novatec can be classed as tactical, but when it comes to a Fenix it is a different story. You haven't even felt the switch on the T1 so you would have no idea about the noise/feel/response of the switch. 

I have mentioned this point a number of times, as have others, however you continue to conveniently miss it 

Please explain how the slight noise coming from a switch that makes the light *ILLUMINATE,* the instant the noise happens, is going to give away your position. When illuminated these lights generally put out enough light to be seen from hundreds of metres away yet the click is going to give you away :thinking:


xiaowenzu said:


> Well, the Fenix T1 bright colored GITD button, is akin to wearing a neon jacket, with the words painted in fluorescent, saying “Hey, I’m here… _SHOOT ME_!”   So a big NO-NO for tactical.


If you bothered to read the thread on the T1 with an open mind then you would have read that the switch is not GITD. When your thumb is on the switch you won't even see the colour of the switch. There are a couple of things with the T1 that i don't like the look of, but they don't necessarily stop the light being tactical. 

I really don't think you or anyone here, or any manufacturer for that matter are an authority to describe what a tactical light is and that includes your beloved SF. This comes down to individual preferences and tastes as different agencies and services have different requirements and techniques and can't necessarily be covered by one definition.


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## WadeF (Nov 17, 2007)

So are you going to throw Novatac in there with flashlights that claim to be tactical, but by your definition, are not? 

Novatac120T:

"The EDC Tactical Series is designed for use by Military and Law Enforcement personnel. Designed with the same indestructibility as the EDC Series the EDC-85T or 120T also contain the intelligent power supply, which automatically reduces output to preserve the battery as it starts to run down. The EDC-85T or 120T can produce blinding brightness or a disorienting strobe in the eyes of an oncoming attacker, giving the user critical time to assert control. Pre-programmed for simplicity and consistency with standard extended tactical button, the EDC T-series turns on to maximum every time. Its momentary maximum feature allows for quick burst of light in tactical operations with disorienting strobe just a button push away. With variable brightness settings the EDC T-Series Flashlights perform in the toughest of situations providing the user with an added advantage in performing the mission.."

A very highly regarded light, yet it CLICKS on. Fine by me, but I'm curious why you're attacking all these other lights with forward clickies when you carry one yourself and hold it in high regard?


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 17, 2007)

Well, I must say the *Novatac 120T *switch is actually an electronic one, rather than a mechanical clicky. So even if you accidentally use fully press it all the way, it will still be momentary - ie, will go off when pressure is released. The *Fenix* T1, you press it all the way and the light stays on - a big no-no. Not to mention it produces a loud click, because of it's mechanical inherent design.  Also, it's a bright orange colored button - so another big NO NO for tactical. 



KeeperSD said:


> Please explain how the slight noise coming from a switch that makes the light *ILLUMINATE,* the instant the noise happens, is going to give away your position. When illuminated these lights generally put out enough light to be seen from hundreds of metres away yet the click is going to give you away



Well my friend, it ll depends on the direction the light is pointed. You have to understand that every tiny bit of noise adds up, and tactical equipments _strive _to be as silent as possible, until you *WANT* to make yourself known... and that's usually with a gun. Also, *WHEN* you shine that light to blind the enemy, it wouldn't matter how loud it clicks. *BUT*...... until that happens, you're most likely be using the light for signaling to team members, and setting up your position for the strike. and if pointed away from the enemy, they cannot see the light, nor hear it. 

IMO, it's all about choices.. a silent type of switching mechanism allows you more chances to be stealthy... until you really want to make yourself known. :nana:


BTW, I'm a proud flashoholic! and I cherish my babies every day, I'm awake.


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## KeeperSD (Nov 17, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Well my friend, it ll depends on the direction the light is pointed. You have to understand that every tiny bit of noise adds up, and tactical equipments _strive _to be as silent as possible, until you *WANT* to make yourself known... and that's usually with a gun. Also, *WHEN* you shine that light to blind the enemy, it wouldn't matter how loud it clicks. *BUT*...... until that happens, you're most likely be using the light for signaling to team members, and setting up your position for the strike. and if pointed away from the enemy, they cannot see the light, nor hear it.


You really believe that an operator who is trying to be stealthy will use a flashlight to communicate :shrug: Ever heard of radios? 



xiaowenzu said:


> IMO, it's all about choices.. a silent type of switching mechanism allows you more chances to be stealthy... until you really want to make yourself known. :nana:


 
If you are going to be stealthy you ARE NOT GOING TO USE A FLASHLIGHT

I hate to tell you my FRIEND i understand quite a lot about noise discipline and being in a life threatening situation, do you? or is your apparant expertise being based on hollywood movies and the Surefire website?


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## WadeF (Nov 17, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Not to mention it produces a loud click, because of it's mechanical inherent design.


 
It does? It may, or it may not. No one has one yet to confirm, so I don't understand why you are stating it as fact that the Fenix T1 produces a "loud click"?


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## defloyd77 (Nov 17, 2007)

KeeperSD said:


> You really believe that an operator who is trying to be stealthy will use a flashlight to communicate :shrug: Ever heard of radios?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+1

On an episode of either Kansas City, Detroit, or Dallas SWAT on of the guys accidentally dropped his flashlight while trying to twist it. OOPS! What's more quiet now?


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 17, 2007)

Well the meaning of 'loud' is subjective, but having said that I've never ever heard of a quiet clicky switch (well not as quiet as the electronic ones, such as those on my Photon Freedom, and Novatac 120T, anyways) If you've ever used a *Photon Freedom*, you know what I mean - it's like a forward switch, only that it's an electronic one, not mechanical like most.... and more silent than a Ninja's fart (yes even Mall Ninjas! )



KeeperSD said:


> If you are going to be stealthy you ARE NOT GOING TO USE A FLASHLIGHT


 So do you propose humans should develop the ability to see at night? Oh, and don't attempt to refer to that 'Pitch Black' movie! Yes, radio is great... and that's another beast... another one of the many ways of communication.

Anyways, it has never hurted anyone, that a flashlight switch is quiet when operated. 




KeeperSD said:


> I hate to tell you my FRIEND i understand quite a lot about noise discipline and being in a life threatening situation, do you?


 Well, I don't know about that, because you sure are making yourself heard on this thread! :laughing::nana: BTw, that's a good thing.  

Well I'm an expert on noise since I work in the Noise Industry, and let me tell you (without going into private details) that at the dead of night can rival the silence of the sound studio's we work in.


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## defloyd77 (Nov 17, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> So do you propose humans should develop the ability to see at night?
> Well, I don't know about that, because you sure are making yourself heard on this thread! :laughing::nana: BTw, that's a good thing.



Us humans have created such a device that helps us do such a thing without others seeing and technically KeeperSD is being read not heard


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## jeep44 (Nov 17, 2007)

"Tactical" means I have a $73 paypal charge to explain to my wife soon


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 17, 2007)

defloyd77 said:


> Us humans have created such a device that helps us do such a thing without others seeing and technically KeeperSD is being read not heard



His words had an audible quality to it... heck, my ears are still ringing from it!  



jeep44 said:


> "Tactical" means I have a $73 paypal charge to explain to my wife soon


 LMAO!! 

$73 dollars doesn't sound like a *Surefire*.


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## jeep44 (Nov 17, 2007)

No, not Surefire. The T1 Fenix.


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## Hitthespot (Nov 17, 2007)

People who depend on firearms for their own well being have very specific needs in a flashlight. Any police, sheriff, FBI, military person etc. trained in the use of a light for duty would refer to that light as a "Tactical" light". As posted in another post it has a specific planned purpose. 

Lights can have other "planned purposes" other than Police/Military use and could be tactical for that specific purpose. A person who inspects say mine shafts or gas wells may need a light with specific characterisics to be safe in their field of use. It would be a light with a planned purpose. 

My point is that lights can have specific characterisics based on certain needs. I would say the biggest need outside the everyday refridgerator raider would be the thousands and thousands of Police and Military users. When they want to look for a light I'm sure the easiest method would be to find all the lights that state Tactical and just pick from that lot. Unfortunately nothing is ever that easy. Even the specifics of a Tactical light could change from one police agency to another or from one country to another. So where do these characterisitcs that make a flashlight a Tactical light start and end and to whose set of criteria? 

Each light must be taken on each of its characteristics and chosen based on those characteristics, user reviews, and proven testing. I don't think we can get to caught up in what a light is called because there is no specific set of rules from manufacturer to manufacturer, and I doubt that will ever happen on a flashlight.

My 2 Cents


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## Marduke (Nov 17, 2007)

If you're close enough to hear the click, you're close enough to see the blinding light no matter which direction it's pointed. If you want complete darkness, they make something call NVG...

I would love to know 2 things:

1) How do you seem to know so much about a subject in which you have absolutely NO experience?

2) How have you managed to give a negative mini-review of a light (T1) which NO ONE owns yet, including yourself?? You always seem to have opinions about all the Fenix lights, but you don't even own ONE... That doesn't entitle you to make ANY opinions about their form or function, as you DON'T KNOW!!

BTW, the forward switch on my Energizer Cree from SamsClub is both a forward mechanical clickie, and SILENT. So HA!


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## KeeperSD (Nov 17, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> So do you propose humans should develop the ability to see at night?


Humans already do, hence the reason the our pupil's dilate and constrict to regulate the amount of light that enters the eye and hence provide a natural form of night vision. One that has been relied on for many years prior to NVG becoming available. Now we also have NVG that have already been mentioned. 



xiaowenzu said:


> Anyways, it has never hurted anyone, that a flashlight switch is quiet when operated.


If you want a quiet switch on your flashlight then great, power to you, however it is not high on my priorities and certainly doesn't define if a light is tactical or not. 



xiaowenzu said:


> His words had an audible quality to it... heck, my ears are still ringing from it!


I am not posting to argue every point with you, i too don't like the word Tactical, ask GlenC what i called the phrase when he asked me, but you continue to post information as if it is fact even after being shown why it is incorrect or not necessarily accurate


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## BigD64 (Nov 17, 2007)

Tactical actually means using my SF Kroma on low red to sneak into bed without waking the wicked witch of the east.  [content removed due to being inappropriate for CPF discussion]


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## Empath (Nov 17, 2007)

As a matter of information, the practice of hitting the "Report Post" icon for each post that you find unfavorable is becoming tiresome. Such improper use of it could well be considered abuse of the system, and could be handled accordingly.


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## defloyd77 (Nov 17, 2007)

Oh yeah and there's NVG, forgot that one. I was thinking of a pirate eye patch. I hear ya on that one BigD64, I have to use my red led Stylus when the wicked witch of the midwest has a migrane day and has to have all lights off.:eeksign::duck:

One thing that I'm suprised that slipped all of our minds is the experience of the person using the flashlight and how well they maintain it. A new guy who hasn't much real world tactical experiances with flashlights may not be as skilled with a twisty, expecially if it's "just a flashlight" to him and doesn't properly maintain it and the threads get all rough and gritty. If I remember correctly the dude on the swat show was relativlely new, just a wee bit nervous and it may be possible he didn't even clean the threads before use.


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 17, 2007)

Thanks for all the input, guys!  There sure are some valid points being made..  

Like everyone, I too am annoyed at lights, which describe themselves as being ‘tactical lights’ when they’re obviously not. It just skews the meaning of the terminology for the average Joe. Next thing you know, manufacturers will start calling their $2 plastic light, as *“*_Weapon lights_*” *simply because it can be used to_ ‘fight the darkness’_.. and they’d use the dictionary definition as their defence.  So, but where does that leave the actual *REAL* *weapon-lights* that are mounted on firearms & used in combat by SWAT teams, FBI agents, and military operations, etc? 

It just confuses everyone; now the same thing is happening to the word ‘tactical’ but thankfully we flashoholics are smart enough to know the REAL deals from the wannabes.  Hey, I could use my Pen-light to pick my nose using great _tactics_, but heck I’d never dare to call it a ‘tactical light’ – it’s simply not worthy of that honor.


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## Kiessling (Nov 17, 2007)

xiaowenzu ... your posting history indicates an omnipresent pattern where Fenix / Chinese lights are attacked and SF lights are elevated. While no such post on its own is problematic, the context on the long run suggests an agenda that not only reduces your credibility with those stereotypes, but it also seems to be annoying for the other members, when looking at the reactions your posts are provoking.


May I (or make that "we", CPF staff) suggest a change in posting style in order to avoid looking like a blind brand loyalist, or someone with a grudge ... or ... in the worst case ... like a troll?

Thank you for considering.


bernie


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## AWGD8 (Nov 17, 2007)

Does this one come with tactical strobe?


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## defloyd77 (Nov 17, 2007)

AWGD8 said:


> Does this one come with tactical strobe?



There is even one with a blue led available for those on a diet.


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## Marduke (Nov 17, 2007)

AWGD8 said:


> Does this one come with tactical strobe?



It doesn't have to strobe for the health-nut vegetarian crap in that fridge to make me nauseous


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 19, 2007)

Please keep on the topic, guys! Okay you can still talk about 'Vegetarian nut cracks' but it has to be done in a tactical way. hehehee :laughing: 



BigD64 said:


> Tactical actually means using my SF Kroma on low red to sneak into bed without waking the wicked witch of the east.  [content removed due to being inappropriate for CPF discussion]


 That's an amazing light BigD! :twothumbs 

Yep, the SF Kroma, sure is a genuine tactical light, as defined by Paul Kim, of Surefire... it has a Tailcap switch: press for momentary-on low beams, press further for momentary-on high white beam; twist for constant-on low or high beams... this ensures almost silent operation. 

Well, I'm sure that NVG (night vision goggles) have their place in SWAT, military, special agent operations, etc... but Flashlights also have their places too... that's why you still see lights mounted onto soldiers guns, SWAT member's guns, and FBI don't always wear NVGs. IMO, the googles are of course another piece of tactical equipment, albiet a different kind of beast... but the subject we are discussing here is 'flashlights'. 

As I mentioned before it's very important to have equipment which can perform as quietly, effectively as possible. Because every little noise adds up in the end, and no-one on a tactical team would want to risk giving away their position... ie losing their life. :thumbsup:


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## Marduke (Nov 19, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> As I mentioned before it's very important to have equipment which can perform as quietly, effectively as possible. Because every little noise adds up in the end, and no-one on a tactical team would want to risk giving away their position... ie losing their life. :thumbsup:



As mentioned before, retina scorching light will give your position away LONG before a pindrop of a sound. 

If you're being "uber stealthy" you have NVG or night adapted eyes. If you're busting drug dealers in metropolis, you're knocking down doors, which kind of drowns out the sound of a clickie switch...

Sounds like _someone_ has been taken in by the "tactical marketing" of some particular company. _cough cough, Paul Kim

_ BTW, weapons lights are there for the purpose of blinding your enemy (and illuminating them to shoot them), often while shouting at them to surrender. In those circumstances, I think they have once again realized you are there without hearing your first.


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 19, 2007)

Marduke said:


> If you're busting drug dealers in metropolis, you're knocking down doors, which kind of drowns out the sound of a clickie switch...


 But the loud sound of a clicky non-tactical light would alert your enemies _*BEFORE, *_you even get a chance to bust down the doors... or jump their backs. HAHAHA


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## Marduke (Nov 19, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> But the loud sound of a clicky non-tactical light would alert your enemies _*BEFORE, *_you even get a chance to bust down the doors... or jump their backs. HAHAHA



I have yet to hear a clickie so loud as it can be heard through a closed door, no matter how cheap, crappy, ill designed the switch is. Also, I also have yet to hear of a bad guy sitting alone, in a dark room with no ambient sound, waiting, thinking to himself "_I just have to listen for the click. That will give them away, and I'll have the jump on them as they bust down my door, *flashbang* me, and come running in *yelling* with assault rifles and weapon lights pointed at me._"


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## Marduke (Nov 19, 2007)

Just so you know, this is what a REAL operation looks like. 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...88&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 19, 2007)

Marduke said:


> I have yet to hear a clickie so loud as it can be heard through a closed door, no matter how cheap, crappy, ill designed the switch is. Also, I also have yet to hear of a bad guy sitting alone, in a dark room with no ambient sound, waiting, thinking to himself



Great video, there! But.... LOL, :laughing: Well, not all tactical operations involve closed doors or kicking them down, like in Hong Kong movies. In real life, the teams could be positioning right above the enemy, in the ceiling. and also, _MOST_ tactical operations are conducted in the dead of night where even a leaf falling can be heard a room away. 

The question is, would a tactical SWAT team want to even RISK being heard, by using a LOUD clicky light? 

Lives are at stake, my friend.... don't make the wrong Choice. Buy a _*Surefire *_today, for some enlightenment. :twothumbs


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## Marduke (Nov 20, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Great video, there! But.... LOL, :laughing: Well, not all tactical operations involve closed doors or kicking them down, like in Hong Kong movies. In real life, the teams could be positioning right above the enemy, in the ceiling. and also, _MOST_ tactical operations are conducted in the dead of night where even a leaf falling can be heard a room away.
> 
> The question is, would a tactical SWAT team want to even RISK being heard, by using a LOUD clicky light?
> 
> Lives are at stake, my friend.... don't make the wrong Choice. Buy a _*Surefire *_today, for some enlightenment. :twothumbs



1) That video was real life, not a Hong Kong action flick. Did you not notice the multiple use of flashbangs? They are also used at night, even more heavily.

2) In a TRUE tactical operation, you won't be using ANY flashlight until you're A) blinding someone or B) doing a secondary search after the fun has ended.

3) Most tactical operations in the US are fast and loud, as to not give the bad guy a chance to respond. Part of the core training is be fast, loud, and aggressive.

4) Would an officer want to risk DROPPING a light while trying to operate the twisty one-handed, or worse yet not have it work because he forgot it was locked out so the sensitive momentary (common with twist momentaries) wouldn't come on at a bad time (giving away his position) while in his belt?

5) That last line sounds like you haven't read the new TROLL warning...


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## [email protected] (Nov 20, 2007)

Xiaowenzu, please consider this your first warning and a strong suggestion to change your posting style.


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## Greta (Nov 20, 2007)

> 4) Would an officer want to risk DROPPING a light while trying to operate the twisty one-handed, or worse yet not have it work because he forgot it was locked out so the sensitive momentary (common with twist momentaries) wouldn't come on at a bad time (giving away his position) while in his belt?


 
Well I do have to admit that because of *exactly* these issues, that is why my husband uses a Surefire for his tactical missions... and so does the rest of our SWAT team...  No one has had a single "failure" yet.

I still have to agree though that xiaowenzu's style needs some improvement. Remember... it's not what you say... it's how you say it...


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## Marduke (Nov 20, 2007)

Sasha said:


> Well I do have to admit that because of *exactly* these issues, that is why my husband uses a Surefire for his tactical missions... and so does the rest of our SWAT team...  No one has had a single "failure" yet.



Out of curiosity, which one(s)?


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 20, 2007)

Sasha said:


> Well I do have to admit that because of *exactly* these issues, that is why my husband uses a Surefire for his tactical missions... and so does the rest of our SWAT team...  No one has had a single "failure" yet.
> 
> I still have to agree though that xiaowenzu's style needs some improvement. Remember... it's not what you say... it's how you say it...



Thanks for being with me, Sasha and....:welcome: Umm.. sorry, my grammar is not too eloquent.. so everyone should bear with me, but yeap, I agree it's without a doubt that SWAT teams would choose tactical lights over loud clicky non-tactical lights. Sometimes a situation calls for 'Loud Bust in and blind opponent' tactics, but sometimes the mission is covert. It really all depends on the circumstances, but one thing can't be denied is that having a silently operated light affords you more advantages. Cheers. :thumbsup:


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## KeeperSD (Nov 20, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Sometimes a situation calls for 'Loud Bust in and blind opponent' tactics, but sometimes the mission is covert. It really all depends on the circumstances, but one thing can't be denied is that having a silently operated light affords you more advantages.





xiaowenzu said:


> But the loud sound of a clicky non-tactical light would alert your enemies _*BEFORE, *_you even get a chance to bust down the doors... or jump their backs. HAHAHA


 

If the situation calls for covert then using a light when you are approaching the scene is definately out, i don't know how this is so hard to understand. Well adapted natural night vision provides enough vision to silently approach a scene prior to needing the light to illuminate the scene. As for hearing it through a door, i would be more concerned about the light being seen under the door or through a window than the slight click the light may make at the same time as the light is being switched on. 



xiaowenzu said:


> _MOST_ tactical operations are conducted in the dead of night where even a leaf falling can be heard a room away


 
Please show your source for this FACT........ :thinking:

Your posting style has nothing to do with grammar, it is the fact that you can't see another point of view, and even when corrected you continue with unfounded information.


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## Greta (Nov 20, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> ... Sasha and....:welcome:


 
Ok, that's just funny... :laughing: Sorry... I know there is a language barrier and all... and I don't mean to make fun... but... ya gotta admit guys, this is _funny!!_ :laughing:


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## Lobo (Nov 20, 2007)

LOL
That REALLY cracked me up!


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## Lightingguy321 (Nov 20, 2007)

The defenition of tactical light that I hear about a lot is a light that is bright enough to temporarily blind or disorient the agressor. From what surefire says (I am trying not to be biased, but it is the only source that is coming from the top of my head) an incandescent lamp that is around 65 surefire lumens or an LED running at 50 to 65 lumens is considered tactical output.


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## divine (Nov 20, 2007)

That looks like a nice "tactical" layout of your fridge!


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## Lightraven (Nov 20, 2007)

"In selecting a light, it should be as bright as possible--period. A handheld light should readily fit the hand, allow for uncomplicated manipulation and render a clear and distinct sight picture. Its housing should be rugged, machined with a positive gripping surface and possess a rear-mounted activation switch which lends itself to easy activation, no fumbling and a positive contact surface."--Scott Reitz, LAPD SWAT sniper/Metro tactics instructor (retired), founder of International Tactical Training Seminars. 

from Surefire Combat Tactics 2005.

When SEAL Team 6 needed to learn room entries, they got Scotty to teach them. When FBI HRT was organized, they called Scotty.

Surefire's criteria is (from their flashlight selection and tactics DVD 2005):

1. Bright, smooth beam (65 lumens minimum)
2. Tactically correct switching (their term)--a momentary tailswitch, not clicky
3. Reliable, high energy power source (referring to 123A batteries, as opposed to ni-cad rechargeables or alkalines)


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## Marduke (Nov 21, 2007)

Hmmm, looks like we have some INTENTIONAL trolling here...
Red emphasis added:



xiaowenzu said:


> on your flashlights?
> 
> Okay for those who don't know... a normal Clickie switch, also known as *'Forward Clicky' *operates like those on a Maglite - when you lighty press the button, the light is *INSTANTLY* activated. Press harder, it clicks and the light stays on. *Great for signalling or short bursts of light*.
> *
> ...



And



xiaowenzu said:


> However with FORWARD clickie, such as Maglites, I pretty much have the depress the button quite far to activate the 'click' which locks the light permanently on. It takes more effort to fully engage the light, which is a good thing. *Forward clickie switches *have *longer travels* because *it's designed for tactical signaling*... and you DON'T want the light so easily to lock on during crucial signalling moments - it can mean life and death for the user.
> 
> hmm, the Surefire L1 is essentially a forward clickie with different levels of brightness. Off my head I can also think of the HDS 85 and Photon Microlight which are forward clickie with 'cool' U.I too. Anyways, as somebody here said, the U.I circuit board doesn't know if the power was interruped by the use of a reverse clickie or a forward clickie. Both implementations can have 'cool' U.I



And



xiaowenzu said:


> Very true. Another thing is that normal clickie allows you to turn on the light *SILENTLY, *since you don't have to fully CLICK it. I heard a CPF'er complain that his reverse clickie wakes his wife up everytime he use it to 'peek in the night' or go to the toilet. The sound of reverse clicky can be quite loud especially when you sleep with a partner.
> 
> With *Forward clickie*, I can activate the light to go toilet at night without making sound.



So, it seems as if you have "changed" your opinion on switches for the sole purpose of creating conflict. 


To this, I only have one thing to say:


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## Robocop (Nov 21, 2007)

I have been on the streets for 10 years now and have made hundreds of high risk entries as well as arrests. I work with some of the best trained officers with us all having had several real world experiences as well as training. I have also attended several training events and yes have had much training at these events on correct light usage......not once in over 10 years have I noticed a clicky switch being a problem due to noise nor have I ever seen any who disregard a light from purchase due to a noisy clicky switch. Never once have I ,or the other 900 officers in my Dept, thought twice of a noisy tail clicky switch.....it is simply not an issue. A good officer knows to never keep his light on anyway as the actual beam is more of a threat than any noise. During a building search or night entry you will see officers constantly clicking their lights on and off again to avoid being tracked by any threats. Never once have the many "clicks" been a problem.... 

In todays world full of defense lawyers we will always have to announce our presence first before making any entry anyway. Yes it is always loud and violent and designed to distract the enemy so a "click" from a tailswitch is the least of our worries. 

For me a true tactical light is simple ,bright and reliable. Many will argue that it should be operated on standard 123 batteries for better reliability however with todays advances on rechargeables and Li/ion I believe battery type is not an issue. I also believe simple is so much better and makes emergency repair or battery changes in the field quick and easy. It should be small enough to carry on a standard duty belt as space is limited with any good officer having a spare light anyway so both must fit the belt.

I could go on and on about tactical usage or qualification for a tactical light however there are several good choices out today. Yes Surefire makes some of the best as well as Wolf-Eyes, Pelican, Stinger, Pila, Tiger-Light and yes even the tried and true Mag-Charger.


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 21, 2007)

Marduke, I thought I was already clear about it, and I thought you were told to keep this thread discussion on topic., but instead you still keep repeating what I've said.  _Please know, I always mean what I say and say what I mean:_

I am *not* a fan of CLICKY for 'tactical'.. I prefer tactical forward lights that have twisty for constant ON, and forward switch for momentary light which does NOT click but I do NOT think twisty lights, if they are the sole method for activation, are tactical. And most people have agreed with me on that one, here. I hope that clears up the confusion of my grandmar misunderstanding. Cherio :thumbsup: 




Robocop said:


> Yes Surefire makes some of the best as well as Wolf-Eyes, Pelican, Stinger, Pila, Tiger-Light and yes even the tried and true Mag-Charger.


Hello Robocop, I'm with you! :wave:
Yes, *Surefire* and *Pelican* does make Tactical lights and I'm sure Maglights can be 'tactical' in some situations... if one defines using it as a club. Lol, however I've yet to witness my SWAT buddies carry Mags, since they claim it's too heavy and it doesn't provide a momentary ON capability without accidently activating constant on. However, I do agree with you on the Surefires and Pelican being tactical, however I must caution that not ALL Surefires are built for SWAT teams.. eg the TITAN.


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## MikeLip (Nov 21, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> I am *not* a fan of CLICKY for 'tactical'.. I prefer tactical forward lights that have twisty for constant ON, and forward switch for momentary light which does NOT click but I do NOT think twisty lights, if they are the sole method for activation, are tactical. And most people have agreed with me on that one, here. I hope that clears up the confusion of my grandmar misunderstanding.



How many tactical entries have you made? Any? At all? No, I haven't either, so I will listen to people who have.

Did you read Robocops first paragraph in the post right above yours where he not only states that he HAS made tactical entries, but also states that noise from a clickie has never been an issue?

I think we ought to leave what is acceptable in that situation to people who have actually BEEN in that situation.


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 21, 2007)

MikeLip said:


> How many tactical entries have you made? Any? At all? No, I haven't either, so I will listen to people who have.


 
:sigh: Me too, Mikelip, I've also listened to people I've know who have made tactical entries and have conducted tactical operations. I'm NOT saying a CLICKY-CLACKY, switch will 100% give away someone's position.. they can be lucky and get away with it, but it's certainly a risk. For this reason, that's also why you *don't* see full twisty flashlights used on SWAT teams or by FBI special agents..... because it would be a pain to use it for momentary light - most likely require both hands.


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## 4sevens (Nov 21, 2007)

I usually don't like to participate in threads like this. But in an effort
to make things clearer about the nature of this thread I did a little ground
work and tallyed the various types of posts made here. As of now there
are 129 posts and of those...

25 posts were made by xiao
67 posts were controversy related to and/or challenging the validity of OP's claims and statements including xiaos rebuttals
60 posts actually contributed to something towards OP
60 posts were off topic or are jokes

xiao, you repeatedly say "most people agree," most people prefer"
I don't think based on the statistics in this thread that you can say
that. At least not CPF :shrug:


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## xiaowenzu (Nov 21, 2007)

4sevens said:


> 25 posts were made by xiao
> 67 posts were controversy related challenging the validity of OP's claims


 
Once again, another poster has drifted off the topic. What good does it do, to say that I've made the most post; after all, I think it's helpful that the OP contributes as much as possible to the topic, since they're the one who started it. :kiss:

And you mention this so called 'controversy' made by other members, well to that I have to say... there's no such a thing, only opinions and viewpoints, and _every_ poster is entitled to them, however subjective they may be. When I say 'most people prefer', that is from my own personal experience with my friends in real life, which I'm sharing with other flashoholics, here.. Anways, thank you, for understanding, and I hope to get back on topic very soon!


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## MikeLip (Nov 21, 2007)

4sevens said:


> I usually don't like to participate in threads like this. But in an effort
> to make things clearer about the nature of this thread I did a little ground
> work and tallyed the various types of posts made here. As of now there
> are 129 posts and of those...
> <snip>



So? I don't agree with the original poster and think he's completely wrong about more or less everything he says  (Well, ok, not everything. He gets his name right :nana: ). But the thread has been fun reading, unlike some.


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## Marduke (Nov 21, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Marduke, I thought I was already clear about it, and I thought you were told to keep this thread discussion on topic., but instead you still keep repeating what I've said.  _Please know, I always mean what I say and say what I mean:_
> 
> I am *not* a fan of CLICKY for 'tactical'.. I prefer tactical forward lights that have twisty for constant ON, and forward switch for momentary light which does NOT click but I do NOT think twisty lights, if they are the sole method for activation, are tactical. And most people have agreed with me on that one, here. I hope that clears up the confusion of my grandmar misunderstanding. Cherio :thumbsup:



As quoted above, in the past you have touted a forward clickie as the ONLY solution for tactical, including your own pseudo-tactical uses for a bump-in-the-night light. Since your have swapped your viewpoint to create this thread, one can only assume it was to create conflict.


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## WadeF (Nov 21, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> When I say 'most people prefer', that is from my own personal experience with my friends in real life, which I'm sharing with other flashoholics, here.


 
This is part of the problem, you often say "most people prefer" when you really mean to say "Myself and my circle of friends prefer". You and your circle of friends ARE NOT MOST PEOPLE. 

Most of the people in the topic do not agree with you and your views. It's perfectly fine if you want to define a tactical light the way you like, but don't try and push your views on everyone else by saying your views are what most people think. 

It's fine to have your own opinions, but when you take your opinions and try to make them sound like facts and what the majority of people believe, that's when you're going to annoy people.


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## Lightraven (Nov 21, 2007)

I was doing some live fire training at night. We were shooting at metal plates in and around a junked car. Everybody had their little 2 battery tactical lights and would shoot the plates they could see--which were at the car. 

Some of the plates and "pepper poppers", however were a few yards from the car, probably no further than 25 yards from our shooting positions prone under the doors of two police cars. Those black metal silhouettes just stood there until I turned my Wolf Eyes Boxer 24 Watt High Intensity Discharge on them. The light, constant on of course, laid on the ground next to me while I shot two handed from the prone. Now, shooters could SEE the additional threats and knock them down. The dust kicked up by the gunfire, combined with the black painted targets on a dark range made them impossible to see with standard "tactical" lights.

One commercial pilot (Armed Flight Deck Officer) asked me about this light. Maybe, in a worst case scenario, he may have to see and shoot down the length of a 747 aisle in a pitch black cabin at bad guys wearing black and hiding behind seats and other passengers. I hope not, though.

I can't stress enough that the mission determines tactics and tactics determine which gear is needed. "The gunfight won't be what you want it to be, it will be what it is."--not sure, probably Scott Reitz.


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