# Hurrican SANDY 2012 - Prediction as to LIGHTS OUT?



## TEEJ (Oct 25, 2012)

I saw the phrase "Lights Out for NYC" and so forth in the Hurricane Sandy tracking projections.

This implies that if some of the models are correct, on Mon/Tue, there will be a slow moving storm that will dump a sheet load of water on the east coast, and potentially knock out the power like it did for Irene, etc.

Its hitting Florida now I think, and moving up from there.

Sooooo, when the "lights go out", well, we seem to get sort of excited around here.

Who's running out to scarf up batteries and bottled water and so forth?


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## Hooked on Fenix (Oct 25, 2012)

*Hurricane Sandy*

Hurricane Sandy has the potential to hit the east coast hard just before Halloween. It might make landfall around Washington D.C. (European forecast) or New York City (Fox News U.S. Forecast). This storm has the potential to be worse than the Perfect Storm of 1991 (if it makes landfall) and may cause a billion dollars in damage. It could cause widespread power outages for an extended period of time. The specific track of this hurricane is still in question. It may turn east and avoid land, or it might hit land without much warning (in which case, if you're in the damage path, I would suggest stocking up a couple weeks worth of food, water, and supplies now).

www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/future-sandy-east-coast-tropic/546066


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## scout24 (Oct 25, 2012)

No need to stock up on anything, but I'll charge some RCR's up on Saturday if the current projections hold true. (I'm an hour northwest of NYC...) Just ran my genny and chainsaw last month, and cleaned off my deck last weekend. We're ready...


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## will (Oct 25, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane Sandy*

Here on Long Island - waiting to see where it will hit. Past hurricanes have been destructive. One item that always seems to be hard hit is the local power. Most of Long Island has overhead power lines, and lots of trees, old big trees. The trees go down and take the power lines with them. That yields no heat, no hot water. The first couple days are tolerable, after that it is a pain.


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## scout24 (Oct 25, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane Sandy*

Thankfully, the bulk of our leaves are down here, definitely better than half. And, it's October and not January, so cold is not as big a factor. We'll know more by this time tomorrow night, but the eye making landfall in NYC and curving NW does not make me warm and happy...


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## Woods Walker (Oct 25, 2012)

They're calling "frankenstorm"

http://news.yahoo.com/noaa-east-beware-coming-frankenstorm-171317994.html

Last year Halloween was cancelled by the Police because another freak storm knocked out power for 8 days. Goes without saying I was all set with batteries and flashlights. So now maybe here we go again?


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## karnevil (Oct 25, 2012)

If it hits me I'll be fine. I have plenty of fuel for the generator, I recently restocked my cr123a supply, and all of my eneloops are ready to go. Although, I'm not sure how much of the storm I'll feel on my side of the state. They say it may come as far west as Ohio, but most of these storms stay on the other side of the Appalachians.


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## TEEJ (Oct 26, 2012)

The mountains do tend to deflect the flow at least, you might luck out. 

Its predicted to be a slow mover, so it sits for a long time with high winds and flooding really blasting each location. The power company already emailed me to say they expect trees to take out lines, etc...and to assume if the power goes out, that they already know and not to call.


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## StarHalo (Oct 26, 2012)

Don't forget the battery powered radio!


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## jmpaul320 (Oct 26, 2012)

ive got enough lithiums to last through 2 zombie apocalypses


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## zespectre (Oct 26, 2012)

TEEJ said:


> Sooooo, when the "lights go out", well, we seem to get sort of excited around here. Who's running out to scarf up batteries and bottled water and so forth?



Hah! Already stocked up! Full fuel tanks in the vehicles, plenty of propane for the camping stove, Reserve water containers filled, Kerosene lanterns cleaned and fueled and, because they mention the possibility of sudden temperature drops and snow here, I just got back from picking up 15 gallons of kero for the emergency heaters.

GOOD TO GO!

Of course the odds of anything but wind making it to my area are slim, but this is the sort of "prep" I maintain anyway so nothing new to see here <grin>.


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## battlehawk (Oct 26, 2012)

TEEJ said:


> I saw the phrase "Lights Out for NYC" and so forth in the Hurricane Sandy tracking projections.
> 
> This implies that if some of the models are correct, on Mon/Tue, there will be a slow moving storm that will dump a sheet load of water on the east coast, and potentially knock out the power like it did for Irene, etc.
> 
> ...



Im in NC. Believe Sandy will blow right by us. We may get some rain. Im not on the coast. But I got my lights,JIC. On low (13 lum) I can go 150 hrs and I have 4 sets of batts!!!!! Yeah, I know, overkill, but when you like lights you can never be too ready. :naughty:


Be safe out there guys.Especially up north.


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## LGT (Oct 26, 2012)

All I can say is if you live in an area that could be hit by this storm, they can change tracks at any time, prepare for the worse. If a storm, such as this, causes enough damage along the East Coast, then those areas will have a limited number of Utility and downed tree removal crews that they can call for assitance from nearby, because everybody is trying to restore power in their own backyard. At this point help is requested from Utilities many States away, some requiring two days travel just to reach their destination. Also, with wide spread damage, it's just a slow process to build everything back up again.


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## TEEJ (Oct 26, 2012)

Last year with Irene, it took MONTHS for some areas to get back online.


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## EZO (Oct 26, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane Sandy*

I wonder how this storm might possibly affect the upcoming election and perhaps its outcome? It will be affecting the most populated areas on the east coast and beyond up until a few days before the election, and there are likely to be numerous power outages well beyond Election Day. You might think that polling stations would have paper ballots on hand in case of a power outage, but this is not required. Each county can choose to postpone the election up to 14 days, but it is highly likely that any delayed votes will be questioned by the electoral college. You also have to consider that voter turnout will be greatly reduced in the event of inclement weather, power outages and infrastructure damage. Both political parties may go into a crazed frenzy trying to prove why these possibly late votes should or shouldn't be counted. Maybe there will be a decision to postpone the election? This weather event could end up making hanging chads seem like child's play.

Hurricane Sandy could end up having more of an effect on our democracy and electoral system than it does on our infrastructure.


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## LGT (Oct 26, 2012)

TEEJ said:


> Last year with Irene, it took MONTHS for some areas to get back online.


The work that Verizon, Cox, Comcast or whatever provider serves your area is much more intricate then the electric company stringing up wires. Work is done from transmission points outwards. If one is at the end of the line, you'll be the last hooked up. With events like Irene, there isn't a simple switch to get everybody back online at the same time.


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## will (Oct 26, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane Sandy*

According to the TV pundits - as long as it has little effect on Ohio, the weather should not matter. ( for the last few weeks most TV news reporters/analysts have been saying that Ohio will be the deciding state )

EZO - You bring up a very valid issue. No electricity, no gas stations pumping fuel,


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## DucS2R (Oct 26, 2012)

Storms like this bring out the OCD in me, I have been through a couple of hurricanes on the Outer Banks and they can be pretty nasty. Lost our roof once while inside the house, don't want to experience that again!

I live in WV now so we are probably not in the danger zone though they do jump the Appalachians now and again and some models are calling for us to get a foot of wet heavy snow. Anyway, have a good supply of firewood, did the chainsaw duty last summer to remove large trees close to the house and have topped off the batteries in every light in which I use rechargeables. I hate to admit it but I thoroughly enjoy the process of preparing for a storm. I have a feeling there may be a few individuals on this forum who share my weirdness 

T


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## EZO (Oct 26, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane Sandy*



will said:


> According to the TV pundits - as long as it has little effect on Ohio, the weather should not matter. ( for the last few weeks most TV news reporters/analysts have been saying that Ohio will be the deciding state )
> 
> EZO - You bring up a very valid issue. No electricity, no gas stations pumping fuel,



I gave up paying attention to the TV pundits a long time ago. Their comments and agenda on either side suit their own political and commercial agendas rather than the good of the nation or an interest in an honest analysis or dialog.

And of course, there is always Florida to consider. Remember those chads?

Things could get interesting.


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## LGT (Oct 26, 2012)

I also like preparing for any forthcoming storms. Takes one out of the everyday tasks. And gives a feeling of satisfaction getting ready for something bad to come.


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## ElectronGuru (Oct 26, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane Sandy*



will said:


> EZO - You bring up a very valid issue. No electricity, no gas stations pumping fuel,



A recent episode of Boardwalk Empire showed the original gas pumps. The glass tank at the top would supply the car in real time and after it left, the attendant would push up/down on the handle, drawing up fuel from the main tank and replacing what the last car had removed from the small tank. 

Wonder if some kind of hand crank override would be useful for these kinds of events. Just have to work out the payment - i.e., cash.


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## will (Oct 26, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane Sandy*



ElectronGuru said:


> A recent episode of Boardwalk Empire showed the original gas pumps. The glass tank at the top would supply the car in real time and after it left, the attendant would push up/down on the handle, drawing up fuel from the main tank and replacing what the last car had removed.
> 
> Wonder if some kind of even hand crank over wide would be useful for these kinds of events.



I am guessing that there would be safety issues. Also, most pumps in city areas have fume recovery systems (air pollution). Florida had a problem with this issue after Hurricane Wilma. The fix was to require a certain amount of gas stations to have emergency generators to run the pumps.


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## AZPops (Oct 26, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane Sandy*

That's one benefit about live'in on 6 wheels, .... we can move when things may get a bit dicey where ever we may be at the time!

Hope all goes well for y’all!


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## BudK (Oct 27, 2012)

*Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

I cant find a 5mm wetsuit or a generator for love or money .

& primary cells seem to be scarce too .

The food markets are jammed ; folks seem to be handling it quite well whatever the coming apocalypse is . 

Its not the Mayan thing again ,is it ?


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## Hooked on Fenix (Oct 27, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

Ever heard of Hurricane Sandy? It's heading your way. That's why you can't find the supplies you want. Expect long term blackouts, flooding, and snow in some areas where the hurricane combines with the Nor'easter. This storm system could be the worst on record for the area, worse than the Perfect Storm in the early 90s. Plan for massive flooding and blackouts through the elections. They are calling it a Frankenstorm.


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## StarHalo (Oct 27, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane Sandy*


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## Hooked on Fenix (Oct 27, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane Sandy*

Weather forecasters today said the odds of Sandy hitting the east coast have gone up from 60% to 90%. If you haven't stocked up already, it will be difficult to get supplies now. If it hits the New York area hard, I'd plan for 2+ weeks without power, have plenty of propane for cooking, have portapotties for when the water gets shut off (if there's no power, there's no pumps for water systems) as well as plenty of t.p., plenty of lights and batteries (probably not an issue for anyone on this site), lots of bottled water and food that needs little to no cooking, and a portable radio (preferably one that can charge other devices like cell phones and flashlights).

I would suggest staying away from certain modes of transportation. Subways will most likely get flooded. Elevators should be avoided once the storm hits because of the risk of power outages. For those in the area, stay safe.


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## will (Oct 27, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane Sandy*

Most of Long Island water comes from water towers. I would guess that most/all of the water districts have emergency generators to pump the water up to the towers. 

Electricity is another matter - lots of overhead wires. LIPA, the electric supplier for the area, has been very responsive in the past. Most have power restored within 3-4 days, although some could wait for 2 weeks or longer. 

Hopefully the storm will not be as bad as they are predicting....


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## DaveG (Oct 27, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

Up in New England most stores are picked clean of lights and batteries.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Oct 27, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

Best of luck to y'all. Been there done that. Sucks.


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## Hooked on Fenix (Oct 28, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*



DaveG said:


> Up in New England most stores are picked clean of lights and batteries.



Hopefully, this time, the people don't return the lights for their money back after the storm like they did last October. It amazes me that people think they can buy something they need for an emergency, return it for a refund after the disaster is over, and never be prepared for the next disaster.


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## LEDninja (Oct 28, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

The cold front passed through Hamilton saturday, sky cleared around 5 pm EST. Hamilton is about 50 miles SW of the dot labeled Toronto.





When I woke up this morning looks like the cold front has lined up with hurricane Sandy. Now we have a storm that stretches from just off northern Florida to north of Montreal. 





The counterclockwise rotation around the storms is pulling a lot of cold air down the middle of the continent. When Sandy pushes moist ocean air into the blue zone we gonna get snow. Local forecasts are only saying rain at this point.





Hurricane Sandy time lapse video from a geosynchronous satellite, October 26, 2012.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybGhYIBf9CA

EDIT
Sunday 10AM
Uh oh.
Sandy is pushing the other storm back. It is coming west. At a very fast clip.





The northern storm is now over me a second time. I am in the red diamond.





Most computer models now agree on landfall. Southern New Jersey.





Update
Monday 8PM
The eye of Sandy should be making landfall around this time.





Tuesday 8AM
Tropical storm ... 3 to 9 cm of snow in West Virginia and other states >> oxymoron.
The blue area is the snow.


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## BudK (Oct 28, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

A friend that works at the nuke plant is on big time alert/call & is more than likely bunking at work for the duration. Another pal went on a bike trip with us Saturday (works for the electric co.) & pretty much depleted his cell phone batt with all the readiness procedures they are putting into order.

We are about 20 miles southeast of Philly & expect a good dose of the wet windy . Old neighborhood with massive trees that will instantly clog the gutters. Situation normal . Its the long rains that saturate the ground & are followed with wind that do most damage around here . 
We take it on an apocalypse by apocalypse basis

Strangely we lose power more often from boom-squirrels than storms.

Holy cats . Word just in that some friends have refused to evacuate from the barrier islands . Perhaps I can coerce them with leftover bbq & beer . Plus they HAVE CATS. Glad I stocked up on allergy meds .


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## StarHalo (Oct 28, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

Target, NJ


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## EZO (Oct 28, 2012)

Here are some interesting Hurricane Sandy related links.

An impressive 1-minute resolution satellite loop of Sandy today at the CSU RAMMB website (The Regional and Mesoscale Meteorology Branch (RAMMB) of NOAA/NESDIS)

The Statue of Liberty live cameras of New York Harbor 

Perhaps the most comprehensive interactive weather map on the web, the WunderMap from Weather Underground (try zooming out and clicking on hurricane and other resources in the right hand column)

Atlantic City New Jersey Live Beach Cam


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## EZO (Oct 28, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*



StarHalo said:


> Target, NJ




StarHalo, Sorry man, I find this image to be suspect. I think it is unlikely to be a photo of a Target Store stripped 100% bare of items by panicked Hurricane Sandy shoppers and more likely to be a shot of a new facility before the store was stocked and outfitted. There is no signage or promotional advertising. There are no cases or floor displays with isles where items are always stocked on shelves. Just lots of empty retail floor space that would never appear like that in an active Target store.

Another poster to this thread says, " Up in New England most stores are picked clean of lights and batteries." But here in Vermont at least that has not been the case at all. The biggest item in demand has been bottled water. A stock guy at the local supermarket told me that they had been through 7 pallets just yesterday and the shelves were pretty bare but he said they had plenty in stock and more on the way today. The battery display looked like it had been pretty popular but still had reasonably ample supplies of most sizes of alkalines. The Rite Aid drugstore next door also had a decent supply of batteries and selection of flashlights. We tend to get hammered here so often with one kind of weather or another whether it is an ice storm, blizzard, flooding or whatever that most residents are usually already prepared to one degree or another.

Let's keep it real. Things look like they are going to get bad enough.


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## 276 (Oct 28, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

I had firemen in my end out town handing out mandatory evacuation notices to all the homes not everyone is going they just have to hand them out to let people know if there's a flood firemen or ambulances wont be able to get down here.


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## TEEJ (Oct 28, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*



BudK said:


> A friend that works at the nuke plant is on big time alert/call & is more than likely bunking at work for the duration. Another pal went on a bike trip with us Saturday (works for the electric co.) & pretty much depleted his cell phone batt with all the readiness procedures they are putting into order.
> 
> We are about 20 miles southeast of Philly & expect a good dose of the wet windy . Old neighborhood with massive trees that will instantly clog the gutters. Situation normal . Its the long rains that saturate the ground & are followed with wind that do most damage around here .
> We take it on an apocalypse by apocalypse basis
> ...



Funny you mention squirrels making the lights go out with a boom....they do that here too. They do suicide attacks on the transformers and blow themselves up to take out the power with a BOOOM!!!

I hope the power comes back on after Sandy as quickly as they get it back on after the little grey terrorist squirrel attacks.


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## nitesky (Oct 28, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

To everyone in the path, good luck and stay safe. I hope it is more bark than bite. 

Assuming cell towers survive, what is a typical operating time on battery power? Academic curiosity as I am well outside the zone, but we do get the occasional ice storm or tornado.


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## ABTOMAT (Oct 28, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

Up here in Massachusetts I'm not expecting anything very dramatic. I grew up with storms and hurricanes that no one ever made much fuss over, and these days whenever there's a little wind they have 24/7 new reports from the state emergency bunker. Plus the obligatory shots of reporters standing in the rain near a beach somewhere. A little over a year ago we had some of the strongest winds I can remember and nothing happened other than a few trees down.

Still have all the flashlights in the world and a generator.


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## orbital (Oct 28, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

+





edit: update map


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## Quiksilver (Oct 28, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

lets see some pics of your areas guys


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## EZO (Oct 29, 2012)

Wind Map


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## Sub_Umbra (Oct 29, 2012)

I don't envy anyone in the projected path. The cold water/hurricane combo scares the poo out of me.

Good luck guys.


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## Quiksilver (Oct 29, 2012)

looks like worst case scenario for storm surge on NYC.

Storm surge affects the northern side of the system.

Combine that with a high tide + full moon and 12ft+ storm surge and the subways are probably gonna turn into sea caves.


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## StarHalo (Oct 29, 2012)

South Jersey appears to be in the crosshairs, 7-10pm tonight. Sandy sped up overnight, nudging 90mph winds now. Already getting consistent ~30mph winds onshore, no reports of outages, a seawall road in Cape May has buckled, no other damage reports.


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## TEEJ (Oct 29, 2012)

Yeah, looks like we get slammed ~ 9 pm or so tonight. I'm on call if search/recovery is needed, and I'm hoping no one needs that kind of help tonight. :whoopin::whoopin:


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## Wilfenite (Oct 29, 2012)

I'm up in southern NH. Not in the main track of the storm, but we're getting wind and general dampness falling from the sky. I can't really call it rain, just wet....

We lost power for around ten minutes. With how things have been in the past I figured we were out for the long haul. Guess we got of lucky for now...


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## StarHalo (Oct 29, 2012)

Flooding underway in NYC. Queens:


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## StarHalo (Oct 29, 2012)

500,000 without power across the entire eastern seaboard thus far. Con Ed is calling NY customers to let them know power may have to be shut off to some areas.

A boom crane in NYC has folded and is dangling:


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## Sub_Umbra (Oct 29, 2012)

I'm always leery when reporters write about how many are affected by an outage unless they actually quote an official power company statement. Then *that* statement must still be parsed to find out what they are really saying.

For PR reasons power companies usually use the lowest number that they can and that would be *customers* affected. To a power company a customer could be a family of four or an apartment complex with 130 units. This goes way over the heads of most reporters who, in recent decades don't even understand Who, What, Where, When and Why.

I recall an outage up East within the last 2-3 years where the powerco listed how many customers were affected by a major, extended outage and the brain dead press didn't know the difference. In that case it all blew up big time for the powerco.


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## cland72 (Oct 29, 2012)

Here is a site with 67 photos of the storm.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/slideshow/hurricane-sandy-east-braces-superstorm-17561482


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## StarHalo (Oct 29, 2012)

Landfall declared in New Jersey (high tide ~2 hours out). Power outage number across the board is nudging the 1 million mark. D.C. Airport is closed, all NYC bridges closed. List of nuclear facilities that will be observing emergency procedures:

Calvert Cliffs, in Lusby, Md.
Salem and Hope Creek, in Hancocks Bridge, N.J.
Oyster Creek, in Lacey Township, N.J.
Peach Bottom, in Delta, Pa.
Three Mile Island 1, in Middletown, Pa.
Susquehanna, in Salem Township, Pa.
Indian Point, in Buchanan, N.Y.
Millstone, in Waterford, Conn.

Aforementioned crane collapse has evacuated 900 guests at the nearby Le Parker Meriden Hotel.


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## TEEJ (Oct 29, 2012)

We have almost 50k people w/o power in Mercer Co NJ already...(PSE&G), and that's ~ 50 miles inland + ~ 50 miles north from Atlantic City, etc.

The wind is gusting about 50 mph, not THAT bad, but the branches take out power lines like crazy.


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## AnAppleSnail (Oct 29, 2012)

The home depot here (4 miles north of NC) was being picked over for generators by people from NJ. apparently every HD north of here sold all their generators. This was Sunday around noon.


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## StarHalo (Oct 29, 2012)

ConEd is indicating they may have to take sections of Lower Manhattan and Brooklyn offline; if that should happen, it would more than double the current power outage number in an instant.

Those of you who listen to radio online or use the TuneIn app, New Jersey news station WOND 1400 AM is broadcasting local callers with updates.

Edit: Multiple dwelling building collapse on 8th just called into FDNY.

Edit Edit: The facade blew off, no collapse. Quite a cross-section!


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## BudK (Oct 29, 2012)

The Garden state pkwy is closed from exit 129 south to end . Ocean city NJ is said to be 95% under water & will be inundated completely by midnight .

The winds in Glassboro are picking up at the moment, rain is intermittent.
So far power outages are confined to higher ground in this area. Now that Sandy has grounded the winds are expected to increase.


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## Sub_Umbra (Oct 29, 2012)

The Weatherchannel just said that power was out for 2 million customers in 11 states. Ouch


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## StarHalo (Oct 29, 2012)

MSNBC now reporting 3.1 million without power. First US Sandy fatality (non-automobile) is a 30 year old man trapped under a tree in Queens. Cars floating down the street in Lower Manhattan. Water level in the Battery two feet over what would be needed to flood the subway. Storm surge on Wall Street too high for emergency vehicles to pass.


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## Monocrom (Oct 29, 2012)

Huge wind gusts in Queens. Surprisingly less rain than expected. No power outage as of yet anyway.


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## StarHalo (Oct 29, 2012)

The outages are very hit-or-miss; a guy calling in to the aforementioned radio station was basically stuck on the second floor of his house because the first was flooded, but he had to venture downstairs to turn the power off at the breaker - they still had power.


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## LEDninja (Oct 29, 2012)

StarHalo said:


> A boom crane in NYC has folded and is dangling:



That crane is building one57. The penthouse is already sold. For $110 million.
http://www.businessinsider.com/110-million-one57-penthouse-new-york-2012-8
An artist's renderings of what the inside will look like.
http://www.businessinsider.com/renderings-of-one57-2012-7


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## Monocrom (Oct 29, 2012)

StarHalo said:


> The outages are very hit-or-miss; a guy calling in to the aforementioned radio station was basically stuck on the second floor of his house because the first was flooded, but he had to venture downstairs to turn the power off at the breaker - they still had power.



Must admit, one of the few times in Life that having an apartment on the 6th floor is an advantage.


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## StarHalo (Oct 29, 2012)

Manhattan:






Lower Manhattan:





Hoboken PATH:






LaGuardia, JFK, Teterboro, Newark are closed. Ground Zero is flooding. The FDNY firehouse on Grand is being evacuated.

Connecticut apparently failed to broadcast evacuation orders to some coastal areas and now thousands are trapped in their homes.

Radio caller in Jersey: "The tide in my living room is two feet higher than it was this morning."



LEDninja said:


> That crane is building one57.



Ah, didn't realize this was that building, it's a shame they already sold the space, they could charge even more now..


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## nbp (Oct 29, 2012)

Definitely thinking about all you folks in Sandy's path. 

With each passing year, I feel better and better about living in the Midwest. Generally free from hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, mudslides, wildfires and largescale flooding. We have the occasional tornado and a few blizzards per year. I'll take it.


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## moldyoldy (Oct 29, 2012)

as the photo above shows, the subway tunnels in lower Manhattan are flooding. Manhattan itself is cut off - the MTA shut down the last tunnel. All bridges were already closed. even the German press is reporting that. Battery Park is flooding well above Irene's levels. Electric power is progressively being cut off in the low areas to save start-up costs. Connecticut and Delaware closed all state roads. Not only were all NYC airports closed, the airlines flew out all aircraft to other locations. The NY Stock Exchange is closed tomorrow as well with a decision for Wednesday pending.

My daughter temporarily works at a hospital in NYC, but needs the subways to get to work. Today she was told - don't bother if not safe, and she was not about to walk to the hospital. It might be several days before the water is pumped out of the subway system. For that matter, I am wondering how long it will take to restart business operations in the affected areas? It would take a few days for the airlines to fly in aircraft to have any chance of restarting a flight schedule.


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## StarHalo (Oct 29, 2012)

moldyoldy said:


> It might be several days before the water is pumped out of the subway system. For that matter, I am wondering how long it will take to restart business operations in the affected areas? It would take a few days for the airlines to fly in aircraft to have any chance of restarting a flight schedule.



FAA timetables: EWR likely open Wednesday AM, JFK by 7pm Wednesday and LGA around 8:26pm tomorrow.

The subway is closed indefinitely, they can't even do a damage assessment at this point; word is there's four feet of water in the East River tunnels, so it may be a very long time. Another issue: the subway and sewer systems are basically cities of rats, who will now be displaced by the flood waters..

Also: Video of that facade collapse from earlier, as it happened. Audio NSFW:


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## Quiksilver (Oct 29, 2012)

Looks like a flashaholics dream in Manhattan right about now.


Dark, with plenty to see if one has the right illumination.

Lots of adverse conditions to cause lesser lights to malfunction.


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## moldyoldy (Oct 29, 2012)

ironically the NYC airports officially were open even though all flights were canceled. That is causing a major backup in Europe also. Once the airports are open, incoming flights with passengers will get their flight schedule minimally restarted. Still, how long to a "normal" schedule?

Interesting video. I was amazed that ER would enter the building so quickly after the collapse. There were flashlights observed inside a couple rooms moments before the collapse. I wonder what the indications were of the impending collapse? obviously plenty of lead time for multple ER vehicles to be on the scene.


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## moldyoldy (Oct 29, 2012)

as my daugher wrote from the Bronx, she is taking notes about where NOT to live in the future (as an MD). Also, the NYU Langone Medical Center’s backup power system was not working. 

Ref the flooded subways and rats: They went somewhere! Aua! Uf-Da! Ouch!


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## ABTOMAT (Oct 29, 2012)

There's a building right on the beach in Atlantic City that houses the world's largest pipe organ. I wonder how that's doing. It was flooded once before in 1944.


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## jamesmtl514 (Oct 29, 2012)

just looked at the photos, I hope everyone in Sandy's path is doing well and will come out of this unscathed.
Up here in Montreal, we are experiencing high winds and the power has been flickering most of the day.


----------



## TedTheLed (Oct 29, 2012)

why does con ed keep generators at sea level? http://interestbuzz.com/2012/10/30/new-york-con-ed-generator-explosion-caught-on-video/


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 29, 2012)

Ground Zero:






An Alert has been issued from the Oyster Creek Nuclear Power plant, apparently the water height there is rising in the intake structure. Inspectors are on-site, and there should be no problem if the water recedes, as it is expected to do.

New York University Medical Center has lost backup power and is being evacuated.


----------



## Wrend (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*



nitesky said:


> To everyone in the path, good luck and stay safe. I hope it is more bark than bite.
> 
> Assuming cell towers survive, what is a typical operating time on battery power? Academic curiosity as I am well outside the zone, but we do get the occasional ice storm or tornado.



They might use generators, but either way, I'm pretty sure I remember hearing 2 to 3 days without being serviced.


----------



## Quiksilver (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

15-20 houses are on fire in Queens.

man in Queens crushed to death by falling tree.

--

Not a fun place to be right now.


----------



## Quiksilver (Oct 30, 2012)

jamesmtl514 said:


> just looked at the photos, I hope everyone in Sandy's path is doing well and will come out of this unscathed.
> Up here in Montreal, we are experiencing high winds and the power has been flickering most of the day.



If your power is flickering, consider just flipping the breaker and pulling the plug until the situation is fine again. Flickering power can damage some things in your house which take more power.. laundry machine, fridge, oven, pool pump, water heater, etc.


----------



## Monocrom (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*



Quiksilver said:


> 15-20 houses are on fire in Queens.



Do you have a link? I'm in Queens right now and there's nothing on the local news channels about that.


----------



## jamesmtl514 (Oct 30, 2012)

Quiksilver said:


> If your power is flickering, consider just flipping the breaker and pulling the plug until the situation is fine again. Flickering power can damage some things in your house which take more power.. laundry machine, fridge, oven, pool pump, water heater, etc.



Thanks for the heads up.
I have a surge protector at the panel for the whole house. Additionally the key electronics are on UPS.

How is everyone holding up?


----------



## LEDninja (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*



Monocrom said:


> Do you have a link? I'm in Queens right now and there's nothing on the local news channels about that.


http://www.businessinsider.com/hurricane-sandy-breezy-point-queens-2012-10

-----

A couple of comments stuck in my head:
- Atlantic City feels more like Atlantis City.
- Tropical storm ... 3 to 9 cm of snow in West Virginia and other states.

-----

I've been updating my radar maps on post 32. So there is a continuous history of how the storm progresses.


----------



## moldyoldy (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

Ref the power failures:

Actually Sandy was a good test of backup generator systems. I am amazed at the number of failures of hospital backup generators. And with all of that individual patient equipment running on battery until either the equipment is turned off or the patient & equipment is moved to a location with AC power, that level of discharge often kills a cell or two in the battery packs. 

Before I retired, I finally toured a major network data center for the Midwest: They had battery-driven inverters for the first few minutes, then the big generators were supposed to kick in and those had diesel fuel for 24 hrs. and as the manager said, we can truck in more diesel fuel from our other sites in less than 24 hrs. The goal was 24/7 uptime.

At my work, we tested the 3 large generators inside the building about 2x/year and during the day to put a decent load on them. We have had switch failures under load. Additionally, the generators were used several times a summer whenever Xcel Energy declared a power emergency and it was cheaper to run the diesel generators rather than pay the electric power premium for pulling over 4 Megawatts during the emergency. Our large dual UPS system also failed because of poor contracted battery maintenance. In one case, we discovered that we could not even run an inverter on batteries w/o any load. In a smaller company the outside generators are tested maybe once a year and on a weekend - which is not a loaded test - and then they find out that someone was siphoning diesel from the tank...

My own house loses AC Mains power maybe a dozen times a year mainly because of old wiring in the neighborhood. However Comcast has always stayed up even during wider power failures. Yes, I have at least one oversized UPS on my cable modem and wireless router and have too frequently observed them kick out when the battery was discharged - and the run time is over an hour under load from the cable modem and wireless router. We have only laptops or Netbooks, no desktop computers.

and yes, as a pedigreed flashaholic, I can keep light in the house for several winter nights with flashlights. and our 3 cars all have DC-AC inverters. However I never had a generator - saw too many problems at other houses, usually because of no maintenance until needed.


----------



## 5.0Trunk (Oct 30, 2012)

We lost power last night, so I brought out my lights. I haven't bought any lights for a few years because I like the ones I have. Here is a pic of my kids setting up their beds on the floor with my Britelumens 1D. It was only on high for the pic, but i left it on all night on low. My other lights that I used were Fenix LD10, and LD20..







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk stuff!


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Oct 30, 2012)

power out for me so far 18 hours
lights used
----
Mr Elfin - ceiling bounce bathroom 1xcr123
Nitecore Ex11.2 - edc 1xcr123
Thrunite TN11 - 3x cr123 ceiling bounce
SkyRayKing - ceiling bounce, power line in trees illumination 4x18650
Thrunite Ti firefly - bedside 1xAAA
Klarus Xt11 - walk around house and woods looking for blowdowns 1x18650


----------



## zespectre (Oct 30, 2012)

*Katrina Lessons to remember, aftermath at LEAST as dangerous as the storm itself.*

To everyone in, or even just outside the "Sandy" disaster zones.....*PLEASE remember the lessons of Katrina*. 

The end of the storm is just the start of "the event". Now you are going to have to deal with the "goblins" running wild while the authorities are tied up, as well as the hordes of refugees coming from other areas looking for food/water/shelter. They may not be evil, but desperate people can easily be as dangerous as a pillaging army. In the coming weeks PLEASE BE CAREFUL and BE AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS!!!

Help your neighbors, band together, let us be the right kind of people, let us be the right kind of Americans!


----------



## Sub_Umbra (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Whats with the mid Atlantic states ?*

/EDIT Hey, who changed the Subject line? /EDIT

It really makes my blood boil when I think of those in the cold, without power or even cell comms, listening to their battery powered radios for news and they are hearing PSAs from FEMA and the Red Cross reminding them that they may get more info on the internet. Been there, done that, got the smelly tee shirt.

The most asinine emergency PSA I've ever heard was from the Red Cross. They *so cleverly* reminded us that we could get drinking water from melted ice cubes. That message doesn't sit well with folks who _haven't seen an ice cube in a few weeks..._ Then, after saying that they give the obligatory web address.


----------



## AnAppleSnail (Oct 30, 2012)

*I forgot we could change the title.*



Sub_Umbra said:


> They are hearing PSAs from FEMA and the Red Cross reminding them that they may get more info on the internet. Been there, done that, got the smelly tee shirt.
> 
> The most asinine emergency PSA I've ever heard was from the Red Cross. They *so cleverly* reminded us that we could get drinking water from melted ice cubes. That message doesn't sit well with folks who _haven't seen an ice cube in a few weeks..._ Then, after saying that they give the obligatory web address.



I'll see if I can contact people to find out why they give unhelpful advice like that. I have more contacts on the Health & Safety branch than the disaster prep branch.

Edit: The contact tree is not forthcoming. They may all be busy doing things, so I've also shaken the usual 'contact us' buttons.


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012 - Prediction as to LIGHTS OUT?*

Former location of the Atlantic City Boardwalk:





Former location of Seaside Heights amusement park:





Near Stone St, Lower Manhattan:





Hoboken taxis:





8.2 million across the Eastern seaboard without power. 2% of Long Island residents have power.

A radio reporter walked with an MTA inspector checking the subway system last night; all they could do is shine a flashlight on each water-filled entrance and note smoke rolling out and the smell of burning electronics, then move on to the next one.

Limited bus service in NYC will be restored this evening, and will be free. Taxis will be allowed to carry multiple passengers. Starbucks stores are closed, however people are gathering at them for the wi-fi, which is still on.

Meanwhile in West Virginia:


----------



## jamesmtl514 (Oct 30, 2012)

Wow... That's sobering. 
I things can be replaced, you can't. Be alert, Stay safe


----------



## moldyoldy (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012 - Prediction as to LIGHTS OUT?*



StarHalo said:


> <snip>
> 
> 8.2 million across the Eastern seaboard without power. 2% of Long Island residents have power.
> 
> ...



A German newspaper <www.welt.de> wrote that the NYC subway system will take at least a week to repair just the electronics or electrical systems after the water is pumped out. The NYTimes wrote about the same. The primary problem is that the salt water is corroding everything.


----------



## LEDninja (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012 - Prediction as to LIGHTS OUT?*

New Yorkers Swarm The Electrical Outlets At The Pharmacy.
Manhattanites are making a mass exodus northward, looking for power outlets and food.

Image of people swarming the Duane Reede grocery store, keeping their cell phones juiced:
http://www.businessinsider.com/new-yorkers-swarm-the-electrical-outlets-at-the-pharmacy-2012-10


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012 - Prediction as to LIGHTS OUT?*



moldyoldy said:


> A German newspaper <www.welt.de> wrote that the NYC subway system will take at least a week to repair just the electronics or electrical systems after the water is pumped out. The NYTimes wrote about the same. The primary problem is that the salt water is corroding everything.



It's bigger than that; in 2011 Columbia University did a "worst-case storm scenario" that drew up a picture of what would happen in the event of a large storm paired with surge flooding; their map looks like this:






That represents about 1 billion gallons of water, which will be 5-7 days to pump out. Then you have the issue of infrastructure, as some of the equipment used throughout the line is obsolete and has not been manufactured in some time - this means some parts of the system will have to be redesigned, newly machined, and installed. This could be a weeks-to-months proposition. So you're looking at maybe 90% of the system up and running in ~20 days, but 100% can't even be calculated at this point, it could be many months.

Also: on the issue of communication utilities, many providers are reporting that their substations have flooded, so many customers have not only lost cable, internet, and cell service, but there's no land line service either. There appears to be no cell phone service at all on Long Island.

Edit: Here's a good idea of what's going on in the subways; an MTA video crew tours the South Ferry & Whitehall station:


----------



## 276 (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012 - Prediction as to LIGHTS OUT?*

Tree outside my front door went down, thank god it went the other way I'll post a pic later .


----------



## Monocrom (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Katrina Lessons to remember, aftermath at LEAST as dangerous as the storm itself.*



zespectre said:


> To everyone in, or even just outside the "Sandy" disaster zones.....*PLEASE remember the lessons of Katrina*.
> 
> The end of the storm is just the start of "the event". Now you are going to have to deal with the "goblins" running wild while the authorities are tied up, as well as the hordes of refugees coming from other areas looking for food/water/shelter. They may not be evil, but desperate people can easily be as dangerous as a pillaging army. In the coming weeks PLEASE BE CAREFUL and BE AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS!!!
> 
> Help your neighbors, band together, let us be the right kind of people, let us be the right kind of Americans!



Honestly, looters and other horribly desperate individuals won't be a problem. Yes, Manhattan was hit hard. Very hard. Not surprising since it's a narrow island. Fires in one part of Queens. But despite that, the news media has obscenely over-exaggerated what has taken place in NYC. There's a large shopping center close to home. Mom is staying with me. she decided to go shopping earlier in the today. No looting, no shoving, no pushing, no raiding the aisles. She did notice being the only woman in a supermarket with few shoppers, and all the rest were men. Not much of a selection. The meat is gone. What's left of the fish, stinks. But she came back with milk, sliced ham, sliced turkey breast, garlic bread, frozen French fries, and a few other things. 

Seriously, Sandy isn't remotely the same as Katrina. Is it bad in certain places? Yes. Horribly bad? Yes. Is it on the scale of another Katrina? No. Not even close. Watching the news though those jackasses are making it seem as though the Apocalypse is here. 

As for anyone supid enough to start looting, the NYPD is definitely out in force. In a situation such as this, they're not afraid to remind anyone that lawlessness is not going to be tolerated.


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Katrina Lessons to remember, aftermath at LEAST as dangerous as the storm itself.*

Yeah, if I had to summarize it, it'd be safe to say that NYC is a city of_ order_ - everyone is working to get things back to normal, and every media photo you see has police or medical or fire personnel in it, something that was missing from Katrina. Lots of news items about people in multi-story dwellings inviting up the people on the lower floors, people helping to move trees out of the roadways, etc.

Some friendly New Yorkers trying out their new iFifteenKilowatt:


----------



## moldyoldy (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Katrina Lessons to remember, aftermath at LEAST as dangerous as the storm itself.*

I watched the MTA video release. Wow! what a mess! and all of that water is not inherently going to drain somewhere convenient to pump out either.

As an fyi: my daughter living in the Bronx - somewhere near the area "Fleetwood Concourse Village". She does have AC power and Internet and cell phone service. She routinely is on Skype and SMS'd me this morning at 1115, so at least some of the infrastructure in that part of NYC is functional. She did write that since her old "Sesame Street" brownstone building was relatively high, she was not worried about being flooded out. She did go thru a Cat2 hurricane in the Caribbean that "ran over" her island. Hurricane Sandy did not compare well except that the storm surge came at high tide which was bad. Down there for that hurricane they had horizontal rain for 24+ hrs. The island was locked down for 36 hrs. All of the apts on the windward side were soaked inside by driven rain. The leeward apts fared much better. 

And yes, there is relative order in the disorder. People are taking care of people in NYC. ie: Her landlord invited a family of 5 plus a dog from Manhattan to live in the large upstairs study room until they can find other accomodations.


----------



## moldyoldy (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Katrina Lessons to remember, aftermath at LEAST as dangerous as the storm itself.*

BTW, wrt that MTA video release, can anyone identify the handlight spotlight the worker was using? I was not able to see any cable leading to a battery pack, but it was way too bright for a battery pack inside of that case. ??


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Katrina Lessons to remember, aftermath at LEAST as dangerous as the storm itself.*



moldyoldy said:


> BTW, wrt that MTA video release, can anyone identify the handlight spotlight the worker was using? I was not able to see any cable leading to a battery pack, but it was way too bright for a battery pack inside of that case. ??



The light on the back of it would indicate that it's some sort of video light, so we'll need a videographer to get the answer..

And everyone looking to charge their phone is getting service, so there's plenty of it to be had at least in some areas. NYC being the example it is, I imagine this will be something of a test case for future utility storm proofing that will take place over the next few months; if there's anyplace that could create and maintain an "unbreakable" system, it'd be Manhattan, so it'll be interesting to see what they come up with..


----------



## silver_bacon (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Katrina Lessons to remember, aftermath at LEAST as dangerous as the storm itself.*

This storm has remotivated me to get a solar charger for my phone. Granted I have a standby generator, but I don't put a lot of faith in generators of any sort. I have had a portable 5kw Coleman fail me when I needed it most.


----------



## Samy (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

I just heard on the news that 9 million are without power. Hope everyone stays safe!


----------



## 276 (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

This is the tree that went down last night outside my front door. Sorry if its a little blurry with the flash.


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 30, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*



276 said:


> This is the tree that went down last night outside my front door. Sorry if its a little blurry with the flash.



Awesome pics; quite a stroke of luck that it not only fell away from the house, but it avoided the fire hydrant neatly..


----------



## moldyoldy (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: Katrina Lessons to remember, aftermath at LEAST as dangerous as the storm itself.*



StarHalo said:


> <snip>
> 
> Some friendly New Yorkers trying out their new iFifteenKilowatt:



This photo epitomizes what can be read between the lines on so many news stories of life on the streets in NYC right now as well as what my daughter has observed in the Bronx: an outlet extender of some kind is a very useful accessory for cell phone or laptop users!

I am impressed that the NYStock Exchange is up and running on generator power. Nothing like a real load test!


----------



## Roger Sully (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: Katrina Lessons to remember, aftermath at LEAST as dangerous as the storm itself.*

Made it through safely here in Highland Park. Most of the town has no power with no ETA on restoral. 
Any other NJ peeps need anything? I have batteries an extra water, canned food, blankets etc.


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: Katrina Lessons to remember, aftermath at LEAST as dangerous as the storm itself.*

New York Knicks' Amar’e Stoudemire shows you his Land Rover:






This is how much a tree weighs:






NYU Hospital's research lab was destroyed along with its 1000+ lab mice; all ongoing research has been lost.


----------



## moldyoldy (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: Katrina Lessons to remember, aftermath at LEAST as dangerous as the storm itself.*

original post deleted. As a previous poster wrote, there will be plenty of revisions to previously existing systems and emergency plans taking place.


----------



## sgt253 (Oct 31, 2012)

*Help Needed: Hurricane Sandy- Rockaway Beach, NY*

Situation resolved.


----------



## scout24 (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Help Needed: Hurricane Sandy- Rockaway Beach, NY*

72 hours with no power so far here, this is my first chance to get on CPF since we were out. Trees down on my neighbor's house, all over my neighborhood, a bunch down in my area. We have a pole snapped and a pile of lines down, not expecting anything up and running for at least another week. I've got a bunch of branches on my roof, but hopefully no damage. Going to do some cleanup this weekend. 

Honda Eu2000i has been invaluable, running the fridge and pellet stove. Fridge is on one outlet with a power strip for charging phones and batteries, stove on the other. Burns a bit more than 2 gallons a day on eco throttle, which is really an issue now with the fuel shortages we have. The pictures you see are no joke, there was a 1/4 mile line into the Sloatsburg rest area on the NYS Thruway this afternoon, folks trying to get gas. Local stations, forget it... I'm in good shape on fuel, but a lot of folks aren't...

Malkoff MD2 w/ M61LLL, Spy 007'swith Xeno wand diffusers, Milky candle, Aeon, Nautilus, Haiku on medium, Black Diamond Orbit, EO1's,Photon Freedom micro have al been invaluable. As has my ZL H501w. Haven't burned through many cells, so we're in good shape there. Google Zodi Extreme camp shower, my wife thought I was nuts when I bought it but not so much anymore. We've had that conversation more than once these last few days...  I'll get some pics up when I'm back in the 21st century, with a real internet connection. Hope everyone's doing okay out there in CPF land, I miss you guys!.


----------



## jrmcferren (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*



scout24 said:


> 72 hours with no power so far here, this is my first chance to get on CPF since we were out. Trees down on my neighbor's house, all over my neighborhood, a bunch down in my area. We have a pole snapped and a pile of lines down, not expecting anything up and running for at least another week. I've got a bunch of branches on my roof, but hopefully no damage. Going to do some cleanup this weekend.
> 
> Honda Eu2000i has been invaluable, running the fridge and pellet stove. Fridge is on one outlet with a power strip for charging phones and batteries, stove on the other. Burns a bit more than 2 gallons a day on eco throttle, which is really an issue now with the fuel shortages we have. The pictures you see are no joke, there was a 1/4 mile line into the Sloatsburg rest area on the NYS Thruway this afternoon, folks trying to get gas. Local stations, forget it... I'm in good shape on fuel, but a lot of folks aren't...
> 
> Malkoff MD2 w/ M61LLL, Spy 007'swith Xeno wand diffusers, Milky candle, Aeon, Nautilus, Haiku on medium, Black Diamond Orbit, EO1's,Photon Freedom micro have al been invaluable. As has my ZL H501w. Haven't burned through many cells, so we're in good shape there. Google Zodi Extreme camp shower, my wife thought I was nuts when I bought it but not so much anymore. We've had that conversation more than once these last few days...  I'll get some pics up when I'm back in the 21st century, with a real internet connection. Hope everyone's doing okay out there in CPF land, I miss you guys!.



For safety reasons I'd move the fridge to a dedicated outlet and the stove to the power strip. Compressors have strong starting currents, I've seen A/Cs burn power strips pretty badly. Good choice on the generator by the way. Cleaner power than the grid can ever provide.


----------



## PhotonWrangler (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

Interactive before/after photo gallery of storm damage


----------



## moldyoldy (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*



PhotonWrangler said:


> Interactive before/after photo gallery of storm damage



Good Find! Thanks!


----------



## orbital (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*



PhotonWrangler said:


> Interactive before/after photo gallery of storm damage



+

really at a loss for words on the east coast destruction,,, incredible images


----------



## whateatsrabbits (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

I live in westchester NY, we didn't get hit that hard yes lots of trees down and roads blocked, but not to much flooding up here. My power never even went out, sucks I didn't get to use my flashlights , but I'm happy because the people whos power did go out haven't gotten it back yet. The major problem now is the gas stations are all running out of fuel. Any station that has fuel has cars lining up around the block and causing tons of traffic. People are getting arrested for fighting at the pumps. I ride my motorcycle and sip fuel and go right through all the traffic. 

I heard on the radio that 25 people were killed by falling trees in NY.


----------



## Sub_Umbra (Nov 2, 2012)

*Re: Help Needed: Hurricane Sandy- Rockaway Beach, NY*

I've been thinking about *you*, man, but I wasn't very worried.  Its very good to hear from you. Cheers.



scout24 said:


> 72 hours with no power so far here, this is my first chance to get on CPF since we were out. Trees down on my neighbor's house, all over my neighborhood, a bunch down in my area. We have a pole snapped and a pile of lines down, not expecting anything up and running for at least another week. I've got a bunch of branches on my roof, but hopefully no damage. Going to do some cleanup this weekend.
> 
> Honda Eu2000i has been invaluable, running the fridge and pellet stove. Fridge is on one outlet with a power strip for charging phones and batteries, stove on the other. Burns a bit more than 2 gallons a day on eco throttle, which is really an issue now with the fuel shortages we have. The pictures you see are no joke, there was a 1/4 mile line into the Sloatsburg rest area on the NYS Thruway this afternoon, folks trying to get gas. Local stations, forget it... I'm in good shape on fuel, but a lot of folks aren't...
> 
> Malkoff MD2 w/ M61LLL, Spy 007'swith Xeno wand diffusers, Milky candle, Aeon, Nautilus, Haiku on medium, Black Diamond Orbit, EO1's,Photon Freedom micro have al been invaluable. As has my ZL H501w. Haven't burned through many cells, so we're in good shape there. Google Zodi Extreme camp shower, my wife thought I was nuts when I bought it but not so much anymore. We've had that conversation more than once these last few days...  I'll get some pics up when I'm back in the 21st century, with a real internet connection. Hope everyone's doing okay out there in CPF land, I miss you guys!.


----------



## scout24 (Nov 2, 2012)

*Re: Help Needed: Hurricane Sandy- Rockaway Beach, NY*

Thanks Sub Umbra! Lots of good info from your Katrina posts, this certainly gives some perspective. We're in pretty good shape compared to many, my heart goes out ro those who lost family, pets and homes. An inconvenience for us in the grand scheme of things. Unofficial word is another week with no power here. My thanks to those helping to get everything back to normal!


----------



## Lit Up (Nov 2, 2012)

*Re: Help Needed: Hurricane Sandy- Rockaway Beach, NY*



scout24 said:


> Google Zodi Extreme camp shower, my wife thought I was nuts when I bought it but not so much anymore. We've had that conversation more than once these last few days...



No rinse shampoo/soap can be a real lifesaver too in these situations.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix (Nov 2, 2012)

*Re: Help Needed: Hurricane Sandy- Rockaway Beach, NY*

I hate to be the bearer of bad news for those of you dealing with the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy, but it looks like you might have a Noreaster heading your way next Tuesday through Thursday. It's still a while out, and it might miss your area, but I think it is a concern.

Here's the story: www.foxnews.com/weather/2012/11/01/...-hit-east-coast-election-day/?test=latestnews


----------



## PhotonWrangler (Nov 3, 2012)

*Re: Help Needed: Hurricane Sandy- Rockaway Beach, NY*

In the midst of this tragedy, a bit of good news. New Yorkers celebrate in the streets after getting power back in the lower east side. :twothumbs


----------



## Hooked on Fenix (Nov 3, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

In Bridgeport, Conn., linesmen were being pelted with eggs from frustrated people without power. The Mayor told the people that power was being restored to other places than his city first. People who believed the mayor decided to take it out on those trying to restore their power. Now police have to spend their time protecting the linesmen so they can get the power back on. What a waste of resources. People complain that it's taking too long to get their power back on. They revolt by wasting their own food to potentially distract and harm people working on high voltage power lines. Electricity will now take longer to restore because of these threats and distractions. The police have to leave the places they are needed at in order to protect the linesmen from the people they are trying to help.

In New Jersey, non union power crews are being turned away and sent to other locations. New Jersey will only let union workers restore their power. This red tape has to be eliminated.

At least the New York marathon has been cancelled. Now the generators for the city can be used to help people instead of being used to power street lights for the marathon.


----------



## Empath (Nov 3, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

Post leaning toward political activism has been removed.

Please continue the discussion without involving politics and your political opinions. That aspect of the situation can be addressed in our Underground Wine Cellar.


----------



## Quiksilver (Nov 3, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

I've checked out the CPF underground. forum activity there approaching zero. might as well post in the garbage.



Anyways ..

In Public Housing, Fears creep in with the dark.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/03/n...ne-sandy-fear-misery-and-heroism.html?hp&_r=0


----------



## HighlanderNorth (Nov 3, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

IN many areas this has become Katrina 2012. The main difference is, that in katrina, it happened in summer, in the south where temperatures were warm, so although people were suffering, they certainly werent freezing! Well, its now November in the Northeast, and its getting down around freezing at night there, and only up into the high 40's during the day!

Combine that with the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of people without heat, and millions without power! Not to mention areas where not a single FEMA crew has been seen since it happened nearly a week ago!

I wont go into politics, but do you notice that the media isnt making a big political issue out of the tragedy and the lack of help from FEMA this time around, even though its the same problem as before? 

We need reform with the emergency services and with the media!


----------



## Sub_Umbra (Nov 4, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

Nothing changes and nothing stays the same...

There is little connected with SANDY that was not predictable. While its true that SANDY will leave folks colder than Katrena it is also true that the powerless September that began a day or so after Katrina was the hottest September in New Orleans since the invention of accurate thermometers and that kills, too. The cold strikes down the exact same demographic as the heat does...but thats really a sideshow, IMO.

The real story is about how *similar* these situations are everywhere, not how *different* they are. How one may live on an island in the Atlantic and not know what a Nor'easter can do. (Thats what this type of storm was called when I was a kid) How one may live with this threat and *still* have no food or water or batteries put up for its eventuality is beyond me.

My point is that most of these people suffering in the NE were in just as much denial about the fragility of their day to day existence as those who were slapped upside the head by Katrina. Like Katrina, with SANDY if unprepared it will be the infirm and elderly who will suffer most. Some will die. By the same token, those who tended more towards preparedness will, in general, fare better than those who didn't. One way to judge a society is to look at how they take care of their children, their infirm and their elderly. Only time will tell how the NE will be accounted on SANDY.

Unfortunately, for most in Western culture there is a deep seated feeling that people are not responsible _for there own well being._ That sentiment didn't work out well for unprepared Katrina victims and so far it looks like its not going to play well for the unprepared in the NE. I think its important to mention that that this is the 21st century and this storm's coming was _at the top of the news for a full week before it arrived._ Hey, they talked about a Katrina like storm *for decades* before it got here. Katrina was actually anticlimactic. So was SANDY.

I think the problem is that we're so used to how well the old, old, lizard part of our brain works. Its millions and millions of years old. If someone throws a rock at you, you get out of the way without even thinking about it. It works very well. The newer parts of our brain are still in BETA (or perhaps even ALPHA). They don't work as well. Humans basically suck at any kind of realistic risk assessment, as both Katrina and SANDY show. Again, more similarities than differences. When it comes to risk assessment one of humanities greatest accomplishments is dental floss and yet even *it* is not used by all humans and in the grand scheme of things dental floss is actually pretty simple.

My heart goes out to all affected and I would never infer that anyone DESERVES a disaster but when it comes to the human race, I'm afraid that nothing changes and nothing stays the same...


----------



## Quiksilver (Nov 4, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*



HighlanderNorth said:


> IN many areas this has become Katrina 2012. The main difference is, that in katrina, it happened in summer, in the south where temperatures were warm, so although people were suffering, they certainly werent freezing! Well, its now November in the Northeast, and its getting down around freezing at night there, and only up into the high 40's during the day!
> 
> Combine that with the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of people without heat, and millions without power! Not to mention areas where not a single FEMA crew has been seen since it happened nearly a week ago!
> 
> ...



^ watch out ur comments bro

opinions like that arent wanted around here 

for what its worth i agree. its very telling esp with the water.



I also agree with sub umbra. Most everyone lives so close to the edge now, by choice. Even when I was poor, broke college student I would still buy 2 On Special cans of something whenever I was at the supermarket and put it in the pantry. within 6 months I had a pantry full of food. add a few $20 10kg bags of rice and i think im okay for most of what mother nature can deliver here. also have more batteries than I know what to do with. just bought a couple more packs of 'D' cells today even.

its hard not to get a little smug and annoyed, im sure some of you can understand. if/when the power goes off here, these people will be so bored they'll actually bother to talk to each other/me. there wont be much in it for me either, itll be a one-way transfer of supplies if they saw my garage.

i love my community and will help however i can after a disaster, but i sincerely doubt i will be charitable. 

_"He who puts back no preps, in disaster deserveth hunger & darkness." _- Quiksilver


At the risk of sounding callus, I believe for learning purposes it is necessary for people to feel the consequences of their (in)actions. I could not let my neighbors die of starvation if they were good people, but I will not provide until their need is grave.


----------



## dc38 (Nov 4, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*



Quiksilver said:


> ^ watch out ur comments bro
> 
> opinions like that arent wanted around here
> 
> ...



I somewhat agree..but what if said parties were situationally prepped and still were forced to go without heat and power, even though the rest of their apt complex already had power restored? Ive got batteries and provisions to spare for over a month, but going only by flashlights and mres is slowly draining my sanity. Btw, ive got solar panels and electric warmers, but those only go so far :/. At least i still have this roof over my head i suppose.


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 4, 2012)

I'm very concerned for people who *do not* live in 'storm country'. Many times on threads gone by I've read comments by folks expressing relief that they don't live in storm country. They do themselves and their loved ones a disservice by not realizing that even though they are not near storm tracks there are still parts of the complex society that may break and adversely affect them in their town. Just because these other threats don't get into the news doesn't mean that they don't exist.

The issue of heating fuel in winter is a good example. Even without a storm breaking things and turning out the lights I've read that 70% of the natural gas pipelines serving the NE states go through one corner of North Louisiana. Another severe earthquake like the big ones on the New Madrid Fault (1811-1812) could be very serious for the Eastern seaboard if it happened in cold weather. Actually, there are many things that may threaten the ability to provide both heat and light to folks who live in the cold belt from coast to coast.

Another Carrington Event (1859) would be even more dicey for those in the North if it were to happen in the winter. A pandemic or bio-terror event could force millions to _shelter in place_ and the cold would compound the difficulties for many. Even a labor dispute may be very disruptive to those needing heating fuel in the North. The projected closing of coal plants in the coming years would seem to make the heating dilemma more problematic than it is even now and it has nothing to do with storms or living on the coast.

One of my rules of thumb is that if a place is worth living in there are probably at least a few threats that could wreck your day there. Those who haven't thought about the threats in their area aren't really safer, they just haven't thought it through.

The *Rule of Threes* holds true _for all people living everywhere._ On a personal level I'm thankful that the press yammers on about storms part of each year where I live because humans really may live through many types of infrastructure burps and breakdowns with the same stuff I stock for storms.

It would be my wish that many contemplating those in the cold and dark because of SANDY should perhaps think a bit more about themselves, their own loved ones and how they could be negatively impacted by any kind of breakdown of the distribution of food or fuel wherever *they* may live.

If anything good is to come out of SANDY it may just be a few here and there paying attention to the suffering and recognizing for the first time that much of the same could happen to themselves and their loved ones in the far flung locations where they live _for completely different reasons._ Armed with this knowledge, they could at least begin to deal with some of these threats that most *outside* the storm belt *ignore.* Heck, its hard enough for folks *in* the storm belt to take this stuff seriously.

Its not my intent to take this thread off topic. I just wanted to zoom out a bit in this post because some of the very issues affecting the NE have the potential to disrupt many of our lives, wherever we may live.


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## orbital (Nov 4, 2012)

^

*Foresight ~ Preparation ~ Seeing the big picture ~ Even, preventative medicine*
_We in the US try to fix stuff after it's broke._

How about less utter waste of unnecessarily repaving roads,, and start looking at* whole systems*.


----------



## Quiksilver (Nov 4, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

_Admin note: Post, before merging, was titled "NY/NJ about to get hit again "_











I thought it was a joke a few days ago when I heard, but its a substantial system heading toward them. Won't cause significant damage but for people without basic services, trees in their living room, its going to make things miserable again esp with low temperatures.


----------



## StarHalo (Nov 4, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

..skipping over the "why poor people suck" sub-topic..

This is a pic from today of the submerged escalator featured in the MTA video - Step 1: Pump out water:


----------



## Empath (Nov 4, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

More political commentary and opinion have been removed.

I understand that some may not wish to post their political opinion and commentary in our designated area for such, but such choices do not grant authority to post in areas in which it's not permitted. Such choices, actually, only means your thoughts and opinions don't get expressed.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix (Nov 4, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*



Quiksilver said:


> I thought it was a joke a few days ago when I heard, but its a substantial system heading toward them. Won't cause significant damage but for people without basic services, trees in their living room, its going to make things miserable again esp with low temperatures.



Yes, the East Coast is about to get hit by another noreaster. The good news is that it won't be as bad as during Hurricane Sandy. The bad news is that the cold will make people's lives more miserable if they still don't have heat or power. Also, the winds will prevent linesmen from making repairs to the electrical grid. OSHA regulations prohibit linesmen from working from bucket trucks when the windspeed is 40 mph or greater. This will prevent people already without power from getting it back on, at least until this next storm blows over. Hopefully, this storm doesn't cause any more damage. For those of you without power, I would suggest paying a visit to any nearby friend with land and a wood burning fireplace in their home and bugging out there for awhile, if at all possible.


----------



## TEEJ (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

How widespread the power outages became is a real problem for many many people. Many of the medical and other facilities I work with got whacked with either flooding, and/or wind damage, and/or loss of power.

Its not fun to evacuate mentally disturbed people who are traumatized by a change in their routine...and its not fun to work around red stickered habitations to make those people able to maintain their routines in buildings ruled uninhabitable, etc.

On the plus side, at least I have not had to search for bodies, etc. 

Due to a lack of power, water damaged facilities/homes are sitting stagnant and wet, and mold issues are starting to fester and cause collateral damage.


----------



## jtr1962 (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*

I had no power for 124+ hours but other than that we came through unscathed. We were able to at least cook meals and keep a pot of steaming water going to warm the house using the gas range. Power still hasn't been restored yet for everyone which is bad news given the colder weather. This is the second time in 2 years we've lost power due to weather (a tornado on September 10. 2010 cut off the power for 2 days ). These power lines _really_ need to be moved underground. ConEd had enough to do as it is with the Manhattan flooding without repairing thousands of downed power lines scattered throughout the outer boroughs. Hopefully they'll do a cost-benefit analysis and conclude they'll save money in the long haul by burying the lines, as is already the case in much of the city.


----------



## turbodog (Nov 5, 2012)

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?241581-Master-thread-for-disasters-and-generators

Above has links to katrina/generators/etc. Lots of good info in there for people going through Sandy.


----------



## ElectronGuru (Nov 5, 2012)

jtr1962 said:


> These power lines _really_ need to be moved underground. ConEd had enough to do as it is with the Manhattan flooding without repairing thousands of downed power lines scattered throughout the outer boroughs. Hopefully they'll do a cost-benefit analysis and conclude they'll save money in the long haul by burying the lines, as is already the case in much of the city.



I've been studying this a bit. The US has many fewer line miles of wire underground (say compared to europe) because of our lower densities (people served per mile of line). Even the costs of repair often don't compete against the millions it would take to protect even a single small city.


----------



## moldyoldy (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*



jtr1962 said:


> I had no power for 124+ hours but other than that we came through unscathed. We were able to at least cook meals and keep a pot of steaming water going to warm the house using the gas range. Power still hasn't been restored yet for everyone which is bad news given the colder weather. This is the second time in 2 years we've lost power due to weather (a tornado on September 10. 2010 cut off the power for 2 days ). These power lines _really_ need to be moved underground. ConEd had enough to do as it is with the Manhattan flooding without repairing thousands of downed power lines scattered throughout the outer boroughs. Hopefully they'll do a cost-benefit analysis and conclude they'll save money in the long haul by burying the lines, as is already the case in much of the city.



well, yes, but. I live in an area with buried power lines. admittedly they were buried about 20-25 years ago. The problem is that the insulation on the aluminium cables is rotting. that causes shorts - which takes out power to the neighborhood served. Commonly 168 customers. This happens a dozen or maybe even a couple dozen times a year depending on how much rain soaks down to the cables. Typical outage length is maybe a half day. During one of the many repair operations, I used my TK40 to shine in the hole with the rats nest of cables - which gave him more light than their truck offered. I asked the safety guy standing next to me what the specific problem was. He said rotten cables. The entire neighborhood cabling should be replaced, but they have only enough money to repair, not to replace.

In another case across the river, a retired Grandmother was dealing with a couple dozen power failures in a couple months. Finally the neighbors banded together and protested to City Hall. The bad publicity forced the power company to get serious about proper repairs.

IOW, underground lines are not a panacea after a few years.


----------



## AnAppleSnail (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*



moldyoldy said:


> IOW, underground lines are not a panacea after a few years.



Underground utilities used to be buried in man-accessible tunnels to allow repairs. Later as steam lines got more reliable it was okay to bury them without this access, so the companies say. But digging a 30-foot pit to locate leaks isn't a winning proposition. I'd like them to use proper conduit, with pull-through sections and repairable runs. That costs money too. It turns out that the only thing that doesn't cost too much now, costs even more later.


----------



## Monocrom (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*



jtr1962 said:


> I had no power for 124+ hours but other than that we came through unscathed. We were able to at least cook meals and keep a pot of steaming water going to warm the house using the gas range. Power still hasn't been restored yet for everyone which is bad news given the colder weather. This is the second time in 2 years we've lost power due to weather (a tornado on September 10. 2010 cut off the power for 2 days ). These power lines _really_ need to be moved underground. ConEd had enough to do as it is with the Manhattan flooding without repairing thousands of downed power lines scattered throughout the outer boroughs. Hopefully they'll do a cost-benefit analysis and conclude they'll save money in the long haul by burying the lines, as is already the case in much of the city.



Sorry, I doubt that's going to happen. I used to work inside the giant Con-Ed complex in Astoria, just over two years ago. Those guys are the definition of short-sighted penny-pinchers. Worst blackout in NYC history was 1977 . . . until the one in 2003 hit. Now, almost a decade later, Con-Ed still has zero back-up generators to prevent another massive blackout. They don't even have plans to build any. They don't even have any sort of plans at all to deal with another blackout. 

Con-Ed is the definition of that old saying in which there are people out there who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Along the lines of someone who buys a car that's stripped out from the factory, then goes around telling everyone how much they saved and what a great "value" it is. But, it really isn't. They sweat to death in the Summer because the car has no A/C. By the time they get to work everyday, their left leg and right arm is about to fall off from a combination of Stop & Go traffic and the manual transmission in their car, because it lacks an automatic. Their left knee is constantly bumping up against the handle used to roll down the driver's side window because it has no power windows. They get caught in terrible weather conditions because they have no radio to listen to emergency broadcasts that tell other drivers which roads to avoid. And finally, they're most likely rolling around in a death-trap since most stripped out cars available today are built to an extremely low price-point to begin with. Con-Ed is basically *that* guy.


----------



## jtr1962 (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*



moldyoldy said:


> well, yes, but. I live in an area with buried power lines. admittedly they were buried about 20-25 years ago. The problem is that the insulation on the aluminium cables is rotting. that causes shorts - which takes out power to the neighborhood served. Commonly 168 customers. This happens a dozen or maybe even a couple dozen times a year depending on how much rain soaks down to the cables. Typical outage length is maybe a half day. During one of the many repair operations, I used my TK40 to shine in the hole with the rats nest of cables - which gave him more light than their truck offered. I asked the safety guy standing next to me what the specific problem was. He said rotten cables. The entire neighborhood cabling should be replaced, but they have only enough money to repair, not to replace.
> 
> In another case across the river, a retired Grandmother was dealing with a couple dozen power failures in a couple months. Finally the neighbors banded together and protested to City Hall. The bad publicity forced the power company to get serious about proper repairs.
> 
> IOW, underground lines are not a panacea after a few years.


I remember aluminum cables were in vogue a few decades ago, even for house wiring, until the problems with corrosion surfaced. NYC has had many neighborhoods with buried power cables which haven't experienced these issues, but these cables are copper. Also, we run the cables either in utility tunnels or enclosed in metal or PVC pipes to lessen the chances of water intrusion or rotting insulation. In fact, it's a good idea to physically separate the wires mechanically so even if the insulation rots they won't short. Overhead power lines may be fine in low density areas, but in the 5 boroughs and Long Island they make little sense. As you know, there are lots of old, large trees here which take down lines whenever a big storm hits. Electric is essential enough so that it should be considered unacceptable to be without power for even one day, much less one week plus as is the case with some people here.

All that said, I'm seriously looking into solar panels with battery backup since it seems I can no longer rely on the local utility. I read somewhere that the entire gird, indeed much of our other infrastructure, is one step away from major failure.


----------



## jtr1962 (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: Hurricane SANDY 2012*



Monocrom said:


> Sorry, I doubt that's going to happen. I used to work inside the giant Con-Ed complete in Astoria, just over two years ago. Those guys are the definition of short-sighted penny-pinchers. Worst blackout in NYC history was 1977 . . . until the one in 2003 hit. Now, almost a decade later, Con-Ed still has zero back-up generators to prevent another massive blackout. They don't even have plans to build any. They don't even have any sort of plans at all to deal with another blackout.
> 
> Con-Ed is the definition of that old saying in which there are people out there who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Along the lines of someone who buys a car that's stripped out from the factory, then goes around telling everyone how much they saved and what a great "value" it is. But, it really isn't. They sweat to death in the Summer because the car has no A/C. By the time they get to work everyday, their left leg and right arm is about to fall off from a combination of Stop & Go traffic and the manual transmission in their car, because it lacks an automatic. Their left knee is constantly bumping up against the handle used to roll down the driver's side window because it has no power windows. They get caught in terrible weather conditions because they have no radio to listen to emergency broadcasts that tell other drivers which roads to avoid. And finally, they're most likely rolling around in a death-trap since most stripped out cars available today are built to an extremely low price-point to begin with. Con-Ed is basically *that* guy.


Well, for what it's worth, about 3 years ago Con-Ed buried some PVC pipes on our block which they said were going to be used to put the lines underground. A few blocks here have even had the lines moved, but apparently Con-Ed is moving this project along at their usual "lightning speed". Yep, you're 100% right about Con-Ed, but maybe this storm will get elected officials to give them the proverbial kick in the rear end (and hopefully some funding to pay for moving the lines).


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## Monocrom (Nov 5, 2012)

During the blackout of '03, our Mayor wanted to levy huge fines against Con-Ed because he wasn't impressed with what they were doing to get the power restored. Don't think anything came of that. But not a bad idea at all. Some folks only understand one thing . . . Money! I think huge fines for dragging their feet would be a much bigger incentive for Con-Ed to get off their lazy butts.


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## scout24 (Nov 5, 2012)

Power back on in my little corner of the Hudson Valley! 4 hours shy of a week. Not terrible, and my Wife was a trooper.... Day off tomorrow, gotta clean, do laundry, and straighten up my lights and batteries. Headlamps and long-running low output lights ruled the nights. Indoor flood, outdoor throw for dog walking and surveying damage. Tint was not a priority, specific cell sizes weren't, either. Whatever got the job done. As said earlier, Malkoff M61LLL in an MD2 hi/low, Milky candle, and 007 with Xeno diffuser wand were the runtime champs. Aeo was a constant companion and ate a few CR2's, as did my Haiku XML on medium, which my wife commandered and wouldn't give back. I let her take it to work last Tuesday since her hospital was on generator, leaving offices and staff areas without light, bathrooms included. It's lived on her night stand since... ("If you're coming this way, can you grab my light please?") I may have trouble getting it back...


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## HighlanderNorth (Nov 5, 2012)

Monocrom said:


> During the blackout of '03, our Mayor wanted to levy huge fines against Con-Ed because he wasn't impressed with what they were doing to get the power restored. Don't think anything came of that. But not a bad idea at all. Some folks only understand one thing . . . Money! I think huge fines for dragging their feet would be a much bigger incentive for Con-Ed to get off their lazy butts.



I dont know if this has happened in your area, but it probably has.... About 4 years ago, maybe 5, our ONE power company decided they wanted to raise their rates, which they do regularly anyway, but this time they raised them 50% all at once! They did give the option of having the sudden increase spread out over a few months, but you still eventually had to pay the total amount with no discount. They cant legally do this without 'permission', which I wont go any further into because Maybe its political(?) But they were allowed to raise the rates, so they did.

Then last year, we had 2 hurricanes, really it was one strong tropical storm and the remnants of another that came up through the gulf, and there were high winds, but mostly a LOT of rain!

So some people lose their power in some sporadic areas. But it wasnt a million people in our state that lost electricity, I dont think it was even hundreds of thousands, yet it took WEEKS for the electric company to get those people's power back online! 

Lets put 2+2 together here. The power company raises rates 50%, yet they dont have the resources to handle a relatively minor number of customers losing their power? If we would have had major power outages here in this state this last time, who knows how long it would have taken them to get the power back!!

Thats inexcusable! The only problem with fines, which I am all for BTW, is that they would simply raise their rates and have us, the customers, pay their fines for them!


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## Norm (Nov 5, 2012)

HighlanderNorth your post in violation of rule 8 has been deleted, take it up via PM with the staff member concerned if you wish to discuss the matter - Norm


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## will (Nov 6, 2012)

Just a few pictures to get an idea of what we all are facing here on Long Island. ( at the local library - they have power and WiFi )

Tree damage in front of my house. Inside temperature is 47 degrees, still no electric, no heat, no hot water. 







Got Gas - they don't


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## will (Nov 6, 2012)

couple more 

fallen trees






Cars waiting for gas. The line was almost a mile long.


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## jtr1962 (Nov 6, 2012)

Hope you get power back soon, will. We were out for over 5 days and I was at the end of my rope. I'm really feeling for anyone who still has no power with these colder temperatures. We're going from a situation were it was merely uncomfortable to one which is potentially life-threatening.


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## will (Nov 6, 2012)

It is bad, too long with no power, no end in site.


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## TEEJ (Nov 6, 2012)

I have power now.



Of course, there's now a Nor'Easter scheduled to take the power back off Wednesday. 

I noticed that there are thousands of relief workers out there, in NJ, we have at least 5 out of state utilities running around patching up the spiderweb of downed lines, there are Red Cross volunteers handing out food and blankets, FEMA showed up BEFORE the hurricane and tried to get a jump on things, the National Guard is all over the place, etc, but a 900 mile wide storm that blanketed such a large area is simply beyond the scope of the responders that are available.

Katrina and the New Orleans damage was not 900 miles wide for example....and NY/NJ etc is simply not a place that was staffed with hurricane/flood resources, as, well, its never been much of an issue. Maybe with the ocean gaining temperature as it has been, the energy available for stronger storms is simply going to MAKE these new areas vulnerable.

100 year flood planes are now 2 year flood planes.



There are simply not enough resources to respond simultaneously to every area damaged...so people who get helped first are happy, and those waiting weeks are angry...its just too large a total area of destruction....SOMEONE is going to be the LAST guy helped....but no one wants to BE THAT GUY.


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## Samy (Nov 7, 2012)

scout24 said:


> It's lived on her night stand since... ("If you're coming this way, can you grab my light please?") I may have trouble getting it back...



Awesome!


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## Quiksilver (Nov 7, 2012)

Samy said:


> Awesome!



Agreed.

Bought my mother a light (4seven turbo aa2) a couple years ago. She wasn't thrilled with it at first.

Now I can't part her from it.


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## Mags (Nov 8, 2012)

Well it seems that although the Nor-easter didnt take down trees, it still somehow downed power lines. Saw something like this a few times throughout today. Scares me just as much as them falling trees.


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## AnAppleSnail (Nov 8, 2012)

Mags said:


> Well it seems that although the Nor-easter didnt take down trees, it still somehow downed power lines. Saw something like this a few times throughout today. Scares me just as much as them falling trees.



Should scare you more. Downed power lines are less obvious than downed trees. No kid goes over to verify that a fallen tree really is a tree. But a random black cable? Yeah, kids will be all over that unless you teach them better.


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## TEEJ (Nov 8, 2012)

Trees were down all over from the added snow weight and the wind...AND wires sagged too.

The heavier branches hit lines too,


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## Monocrom (Nov 9, 2012)

Well . . . Now I will know how drivers back in the 1970's felt. NYC and Long Island are introducing gas rationing based on odd and even numbered days. There's about 4 or 5 places in Long Island where the majority of gas gets trucked in from. All but one of them is flooded. And NJ has been replying on the one place still running in Long Island for its gas too. FEMA by the way refused to provide any resources in getting the others unflooded and up & running. 

Good old FEMA . . . Still run by worthless morons who have no clue what they're doing. 

The rationing will start in the morning. From what I've heard, there's no limit on how much you can fill up at the pump. At least, not yet. Cabs, commercial vehicles, police vehicles, emergency vehicles are all excused. You can also fill up any day if you stop by with a gas container to fill that up.


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## moldyoldy (Nov 9, 2012)

the news reports this morning (CNN/FOX) are that parts of Long Island will not have power until maybe Thanksgiving. Now there is a real-life preparedness test for a flashaholic!


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## RBR (Nov 9, 2012)

.....


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## will (Nov 9, 2012)

Six inches of snow yesterday, still no power, little gas..


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## lightplay22 (Nov 9, 2012)

Wow! that pic looks like a lineman's nightmare. Hope y'all get some help soon!


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## AnAppleSnail (Nov 9, 2012)

RBR said:


> Watching all these clotheslines and cable wigs all over your country, even in larger cities, your government or who ever is responsible should think about extensively remaking your power supply.
> 
> You guys send out missions to Mars but afford a 1950s power supply and infrastructure.
> 
> ...



Our infrastructure companies are self-destructive (Emphasis on companies). Their main method of profit is to minimize expenditures, including maintenance and upgrades. Because of the massive expenditure needed to produce a competing electrical network, most power companies are monopolies where they provide service, or else are legally granted a monopoly. Economic forces combined with laws are extremely powerful.

This leads to today's infrastructure: Copper wire older than I am, on tarred pine sticks, dangling through poorly trimmed trees. Fiber-optic network cables run through muddy sewers. See:




That orange cable is the internet for Microsoft's office in Massachusetts. It runs through muddy water at the bottom of a hole - which makes it MUCH safer than rickety lines above.

Edit: Nationalizing the infrastructure might have good effects, but only after investing billions of dollars. It's peanuts for the government, and a damn good investment for the country, but the political cost is higher than the politicians will bear.


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## jabe1 (Nov 9, 2012)

AnAppleSnail said:


> Our infrastructure companies are self-destructive (Emphasis on companies). Their main method of profit is to minimize expenditures, including maintenance and upgrades. Because of the massive expenditure needed to produce a competing electrical network, most power companies are monopolies where they provide service, or else are legally granted a monopoly. Economic forces combined with laws are extremely powerful.
> 
> This leads to today's infrastructure: Copper wire older than I am, on tarred pine sticks, dangling through poorly trimmed trees. Fiber-optic network cables run through muddy sewers. See:
> 
> ...



All well said, and the power grid is just the tip of the iceberg. Our roads and bridges are in a sad state also, not to mention our high speed internet capability. Most of those in charge are short sighted and only can see quarterly profit margins.


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## eternity (Nov 9, 2012)

I went a full week without power, still don't have heat or hot water. Even after the news said the power was restored to the lower east side of Manhattan, which got a few of my neighbors to come back, not all buildings were up and running. That included ours, and the neighbors were really upset. A whole bunch of surrounding buildings are still dark.

I made it through Sandy well enough. I had a few lights and a bunch of batteries. I'm SHOCKED by how many people did not. I had to lend a flashlight or two out to some neighbors. I had to give one a battery for their radio because she didn't have a spare. Even those with flashlights had old yellowing incans that barely put out any light, and they were shining them toward the ceiling to light the room. :shakehead We were lucky enough to fill the tub with water, so we could flush a couple of times a day and do some washing. We ate what was starting to melt, before it went bad, so food was not a problem, but I did lose a lot of ice cream and frozen dumplings.  The Nor-easter was a b*tch though. It was REALLY cold! If the power didn't come back before then and I didn't have a cheap portable heater, I don't know what I would of done. :shiver: Even with the electric heater, it was horribly cold.

I went to the local Pathmark supermarket yesterday and it's weird! They are restricting operating hours (9am-5pm). They won't let you in the store unless you tell them what you want before entering, and even then, they 'escort' you though the store and to the register.

So some questions for those of you wiser than me.
1) How can I mask or neutralize the smell of urine, if we don't flush after every #1?
2) How can I heat an apartment in Manhattan during a blackout?
3) Anybody know why our old copper wire land line worked immediately after Sandy, even after the power went out, but two days later and for a week after, could not get a dial tone? I thought they were suppose to work during blackouts! Sometime during the week after, the phone would ring, but I could never get more than a second or two from the other end before getting cut off.


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## Blueskies123 (Nov 9, 2012)

#3- your local phone switch yard has a very large batter backup that lasts 1 to 2 days.


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## sidecross (Nov 9, 2012)

AnAppleSnail said:


> Our infrastructure companies are self-destructive (Emphasis on companies). Their main method of profit is to minimize expenditures, including maintenance and upgrades. Because of the massive expenditure needed to produce a competing electrical network, most power companies are monopolies where they provide service, or else are legally granted a monopoly. Economic forces combined with laws are extremely powerful.
> 
> This leads to today's infrastructure: Copper wire older than I am, on tarred pine sticks, dangling through poorly trimmed trees. Fiber-optic network cables run through muddy sewers. See:
> 
> ...



I agree with your statement, but we the voters should vote out politicians who will put profit before the welfare of its citizens.

This past storm is just the beginning of what most climate experts say will be a different weather patern than we have ever experienced.


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## jtr1962 (Nov 9, 2012)

RBR said:


> Watching all these clotheslines and cable wigs all over your country, even in larger cities, your government or who ever is responsible should think about extensively remaking your power supply.
> 
> You guys send out missions to Mars but afford a 1950s power supply and infrastructure.
> 
> No offence !


I couldn't agree more. What passes for the gird in the suburbs, and much of the outer boroughs of NYC, looks like something a kid would make. It's basically a haphazard collection of power lines, telephone lines, coaxial cable, and so forth strung from often crooked poles in various stages of decay. The picture in will's post is typical of what we have here in Eastern Queens and most of LI. To say this is an accident waiting to happen is an understatement.


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## Burgess (Nov 9, 2012)

regarding post # 161 --


We always have a bucket of water to get us a couple Flushes
when the power is out.

We follow the slogan:

" If it's Brown, flush it Down. If it's Yellow, let it Mellow "




Pour some *Lysol or Pine-Sol *liquid cleaner in the bowl,
to completely eliminate the smell of Urine.


Believe me -- this method works very well !


Good Luck to everyone affected by this storm(s).


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## Monocrom (Nov 9, 2012)

RBR said:


> Watching all these clotheslines and cable wigs all over your country, even in larger cities, your government or who ever is responsible should think about extensively remaking your power supply.
> 
> You guys send out missions to Mars but afford a 1950s power supply and infrastructure.
> 
> ...



None taken. You're absolutely right.

Power companies are pretty much allowed to run as legal monopolies in America. There are pragmatic reasons for doing this. However, it's long past the time to set major restrictions of these power companies. Including huge fines for screwing up. Fines that they will not be allowed to pass onto customers.


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## Monocrom (Nov 9, 2012)

will said:


> Six inches of snow yesterday, still no power, little gas..



Will, is that in upstate New York? The snow accumulation down her in NYC is is about 90% melted away.


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## Monocrom (Nov 9, 2012)

eternity said:


> 1) How can I mask or neutralize the smell of urine, if we don't flush after every #1?



This one I can answer, though you're not going to like it. Urinate into the bathroom sink. For women, there's the shower drain. Not trying to be vulgar. In an emergency, when clean water becomes _that_ precious; you can't waste it on flushing urine away. Air-fresheners aren't going to get the job done either. Plus, as a human waste product, it's a bad idea to leave it standing in a toilet. It's just much easier to get rid of it down the pipes. In an emergency situation, you do what you need to do in order to get through it.


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 9, 2012)

eternity said:


> ...1) How can I mask or neutralize the smell of urine, if we don't flush after every #1?...


I'm not trying to sound like a jerk here (like anyone ever accused me _of having to try)_ but if that's your big worry you have little to complain about. They call it a disaster for a reason *and its not the smell of urine in toilets.* Get a grip, man. If you're still alive and can smell urine you're doing ok. Step back a bit. Try to look at the big picture. It sounds to me like things could be a whole lot worse for you. If you're not complaining that you're starving or dying of thirst or freezing I'd say *you're doing all right by my standards.*

I'm not in any way trying to belittle what you are going through but the smell of urine is not life threatening. *Be thankful for what you have.* One day it will end. If it doesn't you may always move to Idaho.


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## will (Nov 9, 2012)

Monocrom said:


> Will, is that in upstate New York? The snow accumulation down her in NYC is is about 90% melted away.


The location is Nassau County - central Long Island. I had no heat or hot water. I went out for a walk at 7AM, right after the snow stopped and before it started to melt. Most of it is gone now and we just had power restored this evening. I still had some ice in my refrigerator. Unfortunately, all the food is gone.

In the overall scheme of things, I was inconvenienced, but not harmed like so many others here on the Island. Some areas are truly devastated by the flooding during the storm.


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## StarHalo (Nov 9, 2012)

eternity said:


> 2) How can I heat an apartment in Manhattan during a blackout?
> 3) Anybody know why our old copper wire land line worked immediately after Sandy, even after the power went out, but two days later and for a week after, could not get a dial tone? I thought they were suppose to work during blackouts! Sometime during the week after, the phone would ring, but I could never get more than a second or two from the other end before getting cut off.



#3 is because your local phone switching station flooded; during a normal blackout, yes, your land line will work fine, but once you start submerging the rooms the network hardware is in, all bets are off..

#2 is a good question; my best guess would be to chain a generator to the fire escape and use it to power a room heater, but I'd love to see some others' ideas..


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## residue (Nov 9, 2012)

StarHalo said:


> #3 is because your local phone switching station flooded; during a normal blackout, yes, your land line will work fine, but once you start submerging the rooms the network hardware is in, all bets are off..
> 
> #2 is a good question; my best guess would be to chain a generator to the fire escape and use it to power a room heater, but I'd love to see some others' ideas..



If you've got water and a gas stove, you could boil lots of water. Might need to light the burner with a match. 

A generator on the fire escape probably isn't feasible and you wouldn't want carbon monoxide fumes that close to your window.

I didn't lose power but I did get a chance to run up 14 floors in a public housing stairwell. A Jetbeam M1X and milkyspit quad XPG Surefire U2 lit things up nicely.

On another note, it was eerie driving in lower Manhattan without stop lights. I really wish more people walking around at night had flashlights or some beacons because I was concerned about hitting pedestrians in the dark.


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## AnAppleSnail (Nov 12, 2012)

eternity said:


> So some questions for those of you wiser than me.
> 1) How can I mask or neutralize the smell of urine, if we don't flush after every #1?
> 2) How can I heat an apartment in Manhattan during a blackout?
> 3) Anybody know why our old copper wire land line worked immediately after Sandy, even after the power went out, but two days later and for a week after, could not get a dial tone? I thought they were suppose to work during blackouts! Sometime during the week after, the phone would ring, but I could never get more than a second or two from the other end before getting cut off.



Ah, these were on the exam. Let's review:

1. Febreeze, and stop collecting pee. Pour it down the pipes and thank someone up high that your pipes aren't backing up. Yet.
2. Use blankets, sorry. Most apartments have such poor insulation that your only adequate heat sources are a stumble away from an apartment fire (Generator, fuel heater, stove).
3. The phone company's generator worked for a little while, then stopped.


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## eternity (Nov 12, 2012)

We flushed after every #2, it's only the #1's that we tried to save some water with. I got some Mr Clean, so I guess I'll test it out later. 

I tried Listerine (Mint) and laundry detergent. They basically made it smell like a combination of urine and whatever. The Listerine was actually decent at first, but didn't seem to have any lasting power. Eventually the urine smell overpowered it. 




Burgess said:


> regarding post # 161 --
> 
> 
> We always have a bucket of water to get us a couple Flushes
> ...


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## eternity (Nov 12, 2012)

For me water was not _that_ big a problem. I filled up gallons of containers before the storm and slowly used it. I had water for drinking and cooking for days more, but toward the end we started to run low on the water we used mainly for flushing and washing. I actually have more than enough, but when you don't know when the power/water will be coming back, you tend to try and save every last bit.

I could have used the sink, but the tub was filled with water, so my mother would not have been able to use the tub.



Monocrom said:


> This one I can answer, though you're not going to like it. Urinate into the bathroom sink. For women, there's the shower drain. Not trying to be vulgar. In an emergency, when clean water becomes _that_ precious; you can't waste it on flushing urine away. Air-fresheners aren't going to get the job done either. Plus, as a human waste product, it's a bad idea to leave it standing in a toilet. It's just much easier to get rid of it down the pipes. In an emergency situation, you do what you need to do in order to get through it.


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## PhotonWrangler (Nov 12, 2012)

AnAppleSnail said:


> 3. The phone company's generator worked for a little while, then stopped.



Their central office is likely still running on generator but these days there are often electronics in the field that need power also (DSLAMs, VRads, PairGain) and these typically only have battery backup with no generator. This would explain why the service worked for awhile then quit.


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## eternity (Nov 12, 2012)

What are you talking about? Where am I complaining about anything? I was simply asking a question or two, to see if anybody knew some things I didn't. I think _you _need to get a grip or actually read my post before replying to it. I wasn't describing my situation as some dire tragedy. I simply wanted to know of a better way to mask or neutralize the smell of urine in a toilet for when I don't flush.

If I say so myself, I did very well through a week's blackout and 13 days of no heat/hot water caused by Sandy. I never tried to say otherwise. I had water, I had food, I had light. I had enough of all three to spare. I could of used more heat during the NorEaster, but I had enough to not freeze. Do you have suggestions for heating a Manhattan apartment in a blackout, or did you really just want to call me out for asking how to mask the smell of urine? I never considered it a survival thing, I consider it a comfort thing.

I don't get the moving to Idaho line? Are you making assumptions about me, like I'm some know nothing, unprepared city-folk who's entitled and expects the government to come save me? That would not be accurate.




Sub_Umbra said:


> I'm not trying to sound like a jerk here (like anyone ever accused me _of having to try)_ but if that's your big worry you have little to complain about. They call it a disaster for a reason *and its not the smell of urine in toilets.* Get a grip, man. If you're still alive and can smell urine you're doing ok. Step back a bit. Try to look at the big picture. It sounds to me like things could be a whole lot worse for you. If you're not complaining that you're starving or dying of thirst or freezing I'd say *you're doing all right by my standards.*
> 
> I'm not in any way trying to belittle what you are going through but the smell of urine is not life threatening. *Be thankful for what you have.* One day it will end. If it doesn't you may always move to Idaho.


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## eternity (Nov 12, 2012)

I assume all the flooding would of happened at the peak of the storm and/or at high tide. My land-line phone still worked for a day and a half after the peak of the storm passed. I'm guessing it has to be something else.

I have a balcony where I could put a small generator, but I think getting gasoline in any quantity would be a problem. I think it's illegal to store gasoline in a Manhattan apartment, and the closest gas station that I know of is a little over a mile away. That's assuming they had a generator to get their pumps going as they were in the blackout zone too, and I was able to sneak the gasoline into and up the stairs of my apartment building. I'm hoping somebody comes up with some good suggestions for this one. 



StarHalo said:


> #3 is because your local phone switching station flooded; during a normal blackout, yes, your land line will work fine, but once you start submerging the rooms the network hardware is in, all bets are off..
> 
> #2 is a good question; my best guess would be to chain a generator to the fire escape and use it to power a room heater, but I'd love to see some others' ideas..


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## eternity (Nov 12, 2012)

1. I was wondering about that. How many gallons before the flushing starts backing up. Is there a formula like whatever gallons per floor of piping? 

2. We were at home, so obviously we put on extra clothes and used blankets. You're probably right on the insulation, but I can tell you that the little heater I had made that one room much warmer than the other rooms in my apartment, especially the bathroom.

3. Probably. Make me wonder if it's worth keeping an old copper wire landline now. Strangest part is a friend in an apartment building five blocks north of me never had a problem with their landline. Any one know how I can find out what the telephone grid looks like, and which telephone station is servicing me?



AnAppleSnail said:


> Ah, these were on the exam. Let's review:
> 
> 1. Febreeze, and stop collecting pee. Pour it down the pipes and thank someone up high that your pipes aren't backing up. Yet.
> 2. Use blankets, sorry. Most apartments have such poor insulation that your only adequate heat sources are a stumble away from an apartment fire (Generator, fuel heater, stove).
> 3. The phone company's generator worked for a little while, then stopped.


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## eternity (Nov 12, 2012)

That's what we did to wash (boil water, so it wasn't too cold to use).  Not sure it would help too much with heating the apartment as the heat would probably get pulled away by the vent in the kitchen. 

You do not need much light at all to walk up and down any of those stairwells. I did it with the low setting on my Thrunite Ti, only going to high when I heard somebody else heading in the opposite direction. My coin cell keychain light brighter than what most people were using. Walking the pitch black streets in lower Manhattan was another story all together.



residue said:


> *If you've got water and a gas stove, you could boil lots of water. Might need to light the burner with a match. *
> 
> A generator on the fire escape probably isn't feasible and you wouldn't want carbon monoxide fumes that close to your window.
> 
> ...


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 12, 2012)

eternity said:


> ...I consider it a comfort thing....


eternity-

I *did* read your post about how disturbing the smell of urine is to you *in the midst of a huge disaster*.

Sorry if I offended you about what you were able to post about the smell of urine while folks are *still* starving and freezing _in the aftermath of the same event._ Please forgive me for underestimating *your* plight.

As far as the Idaho line* that was meant only in the most literal sense.* Whether most realize it or not we (in the States) live in an era of brittle, crumpling infrastructure as referenced repeatedly by the *American Society of Civil Engineers* in their "Infrastructure Report Cards" which go state by state. (http://www.asce.org/)

In Special English what I meant is that if, at some remote time in the future it dawns on you that your city's or region's infrastructure is not only NOT being upgraded but is actually becoming MORE precarious every year,_ then you should consider relocating to a place less at risk._ *Thats all.* This is not rocket surgery. You don't have to ride the train to the bottom of the canyon unless you want to. You may still vote with your feet. *That is what I meant.* Whatever.

BTW, have *you* read this thread about what others are going through in your region? Have you looked at the pictures posted?

Perhaps you'd find more answers about eradicating urine smells on a janitorial forum than on a flashlight forum...


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## eternity (Nov 12, 2012)

After reading the first two paragraphs of your reply, I know that you know you were wrong, but are now trying to cover your *** with overly dramatic BS. Go ahead and quote where I mentioned "how disturbing the smell of urine is to [me]" or where I described my situation as especially difficult, as inferred by your use of the word "plight". I didn't know this thread was only for those who were still in dire straits. Please show me where it says that. In what I consider a pretty long post I mention urine ONCE, at the end, in a question about how to mask it. If you thought it was a frivolous question, you were free to not reply to it. And don't think I didn't notice how you couldn't point out where I "complained about" the smell of urine. 

As for the rest of your post, talk about being overly verbose. And you don't even link to this "Infrastructure Report Cards". "Special English", "rocket surgery", funny stuff.  Obviously you are being long winded to cover your shame at overreacting to my innocent question. You knew it when you first replied. That's why you started it by saying you weren't try to be a jerk, you knew you were being exactly that. It's okay though, I still enjoyed reading most of your grumpy posts. I just didn't like being the target of that grumpiness. 




Sub_Umbra said:


> eternity-
> 
> I *did* read your post about how disturbing the smell of urine is to you *in the midst of a huge disaster*.
> 
> ...


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## nbp (Nov 12, 2012)

Lighten up, Sub. We know you went through Katrina. I'm sorry about that. That doesn't mean that you get to climb a pedestal anytime someone else goes through a disaster that is perhaps not as severe by certain metrics. 

The guy asked some very reasonable questions regarding dealing with the disaster. Just because the problems he had were "limited" to *no power for a week*, and *no heat or water for two weeks* (still without, did you notice?) and not some gruesome injury doesn't mean they aren't real problems. And he asked them very politely and professionally, without a hint of "woe is me" attitude. So relax, dude.


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 12, 2012)

eternity-

No guilt. no regrets. Believe whatever you want to believe. 

BTW, how many other suggestions did you get from the flashlight forum on your urine *'comfort issue'.*

If you don't like my posts *ignore* them.


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 12, 2012)

I am relaxing, and further, I gave the poster more useful information on finding out how to eradicate the smell of urine* than any other responder to this thread...*



nbp said:


> Lighten up, Sub. We know you went through Katrina. I'm sorry about that. That doesn't mean that you get to climb a pedestal anytime someone else goes through a disaster that is perhaps not as severe by certain metrics.
> 
> The guy asked some very reasonable questions regarding dealing with the disaster. Just because the problems he had were "limited" to *no power for a week*, and *no heat or water for two weeks* (still without, did you notice?) and not some gruesome injury doesn't mean they aren't real problems. And he asked them very politely and professionally, without a hint of "woe is me" attitude. So relax, dude.


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## nbp (Nov 12, 2012)

Right, leave the pee in the toilet, and move to Idaho to get away from it. Forgot.


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## Monocrom (Nov 13, 2012)

Sub_Umbra said:


> I am relaxing, and further, I gave the poster more useful information on finding out how to eradicate the smell of urine* than any other responder to this thread...*



Don't mean to toot my own horn, but honestly my advice was better. (Much less condescending too. Actually, not even remotely condescending.)


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## Hooked on Fenix (Nov 13, 2012)

Guys, please don't let your posts about Hurricane Sandy degenerate into a pissing contest.


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 13, 2012)

Pissing match -- that's kind of funny.



nbp said:


> Right, leave the pee in the toilet, and move to Idaho to get away from it. Forgot.


Don't forget the post where *I told the poster to look on a janitorial forum instead of a flashlight forum*. What helpful info did *you* give the poster on his 'urine' query *nbp?* For that matter, what advice did *any* cpfer on this thread give him about his 'urine smell' problem that was better than mine? I gave him more info on finding an answer to his urine problem than any other responder. Its *still* good advice..



Sub_Umbra said:


> ...Perhaps you'd find more answers about eradicating urine smells on a janitorial forum than on a flashlight forum...


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## Monocrom (Nov 13, 2012)

Let's let the posts speak for themselves, and everyone reading through this topic can make up their own minds as to who was genuinely helpful, and who clearly wasn't.


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 13, 2012)

Lets do that


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## residue (Nov 14, 2012)

eternity said:


> That's what we did to wash (boil water, so it wasn't too cold to use).  Not sure it would help too much with heating the apartment as the heat would probably get pulled away by the vent in the kitchen.
> 
> You do not need much light at all to walk up and down any of those stairwells. I did it with the low setting on my Thrunite Ti, only going to high when I heard somebody else heading in the opposite direction. My coin cell keychain light brighter than what most people were using. Walking the pitch black streets in lower Manhattan was another story all together.



Back on topic...

Speaking of washing, Coleman used to sell a battery operated shower. You warm up some water, submerge one end of the pump in your pot/bucket and the other end has a shower head. 

There are always the disposable hand/foot/back warmers if you're desperate.

Public housing stairwells can be ominous. It doesn't hurt to fully illuminate them because you never know who might be lurking or where to step around bodily fluids.


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## scout24 (Nov 14, 2012)

Zodi sells several battery powered/ propane shower setups. I own the Extreme, basically a 3 gallon bug sprayer with hand pump, hose, and nozzle. Comes with a very sturdy 3 legged base with burner that doubles as a rockin' stove. Uses 1lb. propane canisters or a bbq tank with adapter hose. HIGHLY recommended. Hygene, dishwashing, decontamination, etc. The battery powered ones are just one more weak link.


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## TEEJ (Nov 14, 2012)

Maybe you kids could continue to discuss who hurt who's who who in PM's instead of here?


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## eternity (Nov 14, 2012)

A battery operated shower probably would of been great if I had a shower stall to use it in (tub filled with water) and I knew I had enough water for it. Instead, I took what I called a hobo shower.  Basically it was a sponge bath with paper and cloth towels. I mainly used the paper for the stinky areas and just threw them away rather than expend my water supply washing my cloth towel clean. That and baby wipes kept me from stinking (too much),  *Anybody have a better way to do this?*

Some sort of foot pump sprayer for washing hands would of been great. I either washed my hands one hand at a time, trying not to soil the cup I used to pour the water or had to get help from someone to pour the water for me. 

I had chemical heating pads, but didn't use them much. In the day time we were warm enough, moving around. It was at night when we slept that the cold was tough. The heating pads weren't great unless we basically sat or laid still. I roll around in my sleep.

I can't speak for other buildings but, there were no bodily fluids in my stairwells. Those puddles were ALL from people carrying water up to their apartments!!! Seriously, they were.  The stairwells had enough light streaming in to see during the day. At night they were pitch black, so a little light and night adjusted eyes, got you by easily enough. I did carry a beautiful Surefire 6p with a LED drop-in (thank you KevinL!) for when I wanted to light it up. I only wanted to point out that you didn't need that much light for the actual navigating of the stairs. 




residue said:


> Back on topic...
> 
> Speaking of washing, Coleman used to sell a battery operated shower. You warm up some water, submerge one end of the pump in your pot/bucket and the other end has a shower head.
> 
> ...


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## eternity (Nov 14, 2012)

Just checked their website, pretty cool. But I still have to think that uses a lot or water.

Forget dish washing. I wasted so much water the first few days washing dishes. Use paper and plastic plates!!!




scout24 said:


> Zodi sells several battery powered/ propane shower setups. I own the Extreme, basically a 3 gallon bug sprayer with hand pump, hose, and nozzle. Comes with a very sturdy 3 legged base with burner that doubles as a rockin' stove. Uses 1lb. propane canisters or a bbq tank with adapter hose. HIGHLY recommended. Hygene, dishwashing, decontamination, etc. The battery powered ones are just one more weak link.


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## StarHalo (Nov 14, 2012)

eternity said:


> Forget dish washing. I wasted so much water the first few days washing dishes. Use paper and plastic plates!!!



Good point, paper/plastic dishes/utensils for the emergency kit, wouldn't have thought of that..


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## scout24 (Nov 14, 2012)

The Zodi uses 3 gallons at a clip, fwiw. At full pressure, which roughly equates to your regular shower, it gives 5-8 minutes of use. This answers your request for a "better way to do this". It also addreses your handwashing and beats the absolute hell out of a sponge bath. Dishwashing also includes food prep items like pots, pans, serving items, etc. Paper plates, bowls, cups, plastic utensils and all are probably half of the equation.

I've stayed out of your lovefest so far, but TEEJ has the right idea. "Being a kid" is no excuse, by the way.


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## jtr1962 (Nov 14, 2012)

eternity said:


> A battery operated shower probably would of been great if I had a shower stall to use it in (tub filled with water) and I knew I had enough water for it. Instead, I took what I called a hobo shower.  Basically it was a sponge bath with paper and cloth towels. I mainly used the paper for the stinky areas and just threw them away rather than expend my water supply washing my cloth towel clean. That and baby wipes kept me from stinking (too much),  *Anybody have a better way to do this?
> *


I used hand sanitizer during the 5 days I had no power. That was enough to keep from smelling rank, although I still felt kind of scuzzy. We did have running water, but no way could I shower with ~45°F water, especially with no heat to warm me up afterwards.

If you have a fire escape you could have put containers outside to collect rainwater for washing purposes. I would have put containers in our driveway for that purpose had we lost running water.


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## StarHalo (Nov 14, 2012)

jtr1962 said:


> We did have running water, but no way could I shower with ~45°F water, especially with no heat to warm me up afterwards.



The same problem I had; after a few days, when you lay down, you can smell your own head, but you can't really wash your hair with hand sanitizer.. A pot with a steno burner could have made all the difference.


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## Shooter21 (Nov 14, 2012)

luckily we have gas so we had hot water but no heat.


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## Samy (Nov 14, 2012)

We used to use on of those coleman style 12v showers when camping. The only problem is that the pump dies after only about 15-20 washes. A few years ago I cut the pump off, kept the shower head and attached a basic cheap sump/bilge style pump to mine, problem solved and we've been using it ever since. We had to use this setup for 3 weeks 2 years ago when we had our bathroom ripped out and renovated. We just put up our camping pop-up shower tent in the backyard and showered in there, worked great.

When camping, we heat up the water on the stove, tip it into a bucket of cold water to make it luke warm and it works great. Mind you i've never seen snow so you might want it warmer in the USA. Here's some pics. That one bucket in the pics when full washes 4 people easily:


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 14, 2012)

eternity said:


> ...Some sort of foot pump sprayer for washing hands would of been great. I either washed my hands one hand at a time, trying not to soil the cup I used to pour the water or had to get help from someone to pour the water for me...


Wallmart often carries cheap, rectangular, clear, plastic containers with spigots. The 2.5 gallon model is very handy in blackouts. Place it on the counter with the spigot over the sink. Fill it with water and add just enough *chlorine bleach* to make the water _feel a little slippery._ It won't hit both hands at once but it is cheap and has no pump to break. If you use it to wash your hands with an *antibacterial soap* you'll use very little water and if you rinse with it and wait 30 seconds before toweling off your hands you'll get an additional antibacterial *'kick'* from the bleach. My wife ran this M.O. past the FDA in an extensive (two hour) post-K debriefing and they said it was a great procedure.

Its cheap, durable _and you end up with very clean hands._ It also *makes it easier* to wash your hands in an outage which means you will probably wash them *more often,* which is also a very good thing when what you are used to doesn't work anymore.

One of the things that has been most disturbing to me in long term outages in both the First and Third worlds is how confusing it all may become trying to remember/figure out *just how clean or contaminated* the things I'm touching in my kitchen are (and anywhere else in my house, for that matter). Having a solid system for sanitizing our hands *easily* and *often* has been a really good thing for us.

While on the subject of washing with antibacterial soaps it is worth mentioning that in order for these gentle AB soaps to be effective we must allow them to be in contact with our skin for longer than many realize. A good way to explain it to children is to tell them that once soaped up they should scrub their hands long enough to go through *two verses* of the *Happy Birthday* song. This would also be imperative for adults.


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## will (Nov 14, 2012)

Sub_Umbra said:


> Fill it with water and add just enough *chlorine bleach* to make the water _feel a little slippery._



I would strongly suggest that no bleach be added to the water. Why? no matter how careful you are, or you think you are, some will splash and hit whatever clothes you are wearing. Then the resulting little white spots will ruin your clothes. Also, if there are children around, any water container with a spigot looks like a ' regular ' water bottle, someone will use it for drinking water.... If you are concerned with bacteria - get some hand sanitizer, use it, then rinse off with plain water.

I live on Long Island, no electric for 2 weeks. I had water, but no heat or hot water. Inside temperature got as low as 43 degrees. Basically washing with a cloth and soap. then a quick rinse with water. I heated up a pot of water with my only heat source, a plumbers propane torch. 

Hair washing in the kitchen sink with the sprayer and some very cold water. I can tolerate that only for a minute or two, then my head goes numb. 

( I remember reading years ago that you should never put different liquids in containers that are normally used for water )


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 14, 2012)

My choice would be to wear *already trashed out clothing* during an extended outage because there are already *so many things* that you'll be doing that are different from the normal way you do things that you are going to trash some clothes anyway. *Count on it.* Dedicate three changes of clothes to the outage. Wash them by hand when dirty and things won't get so much out of hand. That way you won't end up with a *mountain* of stinky, messed up clothes and you won't wreck a whole bunch of your work clothes because you are forced to do a whole bunch of things your aren't used to because the systems you are used to are broken.

One should probably wear trashed out clothes during an outage because EVERYTHING one does will be different from the way one usually does things and invariably whatever you are wearing will be trashed (for normal use) in no time. Wear old clothes, use bleach *and avoid diarrhea at all costs;* it'll kill you or your sick brother or your child or your father.

Diarrhea is life threatening to a frighteningly large demographic; the very young, the very old and the infirm. During an outage, bleach is your friend. Don't wreck your clothes; wear trash.


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## will (Nov 15, 2012)

We had 'safe' water, no need for the bleach to disinfect - still - you have to be very careful using bleach, or products that contain bleach..

Life without power was inconvenient for us, not like some other areas here in the Northeast. There were supermarkets open on the day after. They had some limitations as to what was available.


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 15, 2012)

will said:


> We had 'safe' water, no need for the bleach to disinfect - still - you have to be very careful using bleach, or products that contain bleach..
> 
> Life without power was inconvenient for us, not like some other areas here in the Northeast. There were supermarkets open on the day after. They had some limitations as to what was available.


My post wasn't about making water safe to drink -- that wasn't *eternity's* question *at all.* He was asking about how to sanitize *his hands.* That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Re-read his post and you'll see it had nothing to do with whether or not the water was safe *to drink*. 

For the navigationally challenged I submit this:


eternity said:


> ...Some sort of foot pump sprayer for washing hands would of been great. I either washed my hands one hand at a time, trying not to soil the cup I used to pour the water or had to get help from someone to pour the water for me...


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## Monocrom (Nov 15, 2012)

StarHalo said:


> The same problem I had; after a few days, when you lay down, you can smell your own head, but you can't really wash your hair with hand sanitizer.. A pot with a steno burner could have made all the difference.



Sure you can. But not in bottle form. Travel-Wipes. 15 or 20 in a pack. I've done it countless times. Once when an idiot little Paris Hilton wanna-be in a giant Cadillac SUV didn't bother to avoid the giant mud puddle on the city street. I got soaked. So did at least another pedestrian. I went up to the Driver's window to tell the guy off. When I realized it was a tiny teenaged girl who looked as though she could pass for 8 years old, I calmed down. But I still gave her a piece of my mind regarding her driving style and the large toy that mommy & daddy obviously bought for her. I swear, she looked like she was freaking 8. And about as intelligent as someone half that age. 

I used my Travel-Wipes to clean myself off. I was in Manhattan for the day and wasn't in the mood to just head home then & there. The Wipes worked great. Especially for my hair.


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## StarHalo (Nov 15, 2012)

Monocrom said:


> Sure you can. But not in bottle form. Travel-Wipes.



Hm, baby wipes are always more useful than you realize; I may have to try that sometime..


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## will (Nov 15, 2012)

A few towns here had major problems with water, not safe to drink, wash with, clean with, don't even boil it... There are certainly different levels of water quality.


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## TEEJ (Nov 15, 2012)

will said:


> A few towns here had major problems with water, not safe to drink, wash with, clean with, don't even boil it... There are certainly different levels of water quality.



Depending on what's IN the water...you'd treat it differently. Boiling is pretty good for the microbials, but, can actually concentrate heavy metals and other things with a higher boiling point than the water. 

If you know how to make a still, you can do a pretty decent job of boiling off/evaporating the water and collecting the steam as condensate, and saving the condensate to drink. 

If you have a large wet area and a larger sheet of plastic you can suspend the plastic over the moist area so that rising damp air condensates on it, and then drips off of it...and if you simply hang that plastic so that its lower in the middle, and put a catch container under that point, the water will drip into the container. This is a poor man's still.


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## StarHalo (Nov 15, 2012)

TEEJ said:


> If you know how to make a still, you can do a pretty decent job of boiling off/evaporating the water and collecting the steam as condensate, and saving the condensate to drink.



Big pot-little pot:


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 15, 2012)

TEEJ said:


> Depending on what's IN the water....


 Exactly *but if you don't know what's contaminating your water* _plain distillation may not help *at all.*_ 



Sub_Umbra said:


> If you are trying to trying to remove chemicals distillation will not (always) be enough. You will need *fractional distillation* to remove many chemicals from water (by distillation.)
> 
> Without fractional distillation the lighter chemicals 'come over' *before* the water boils and the heavier chemicals come over *after* the water boils, _giving you pretty much the same soup you started out with, minus the bacteria._
> 
> As an example, if you try to do a straight distillation of water contaminated with acetone, it will turn to vapor and run through the condenser at 134 degrees F _while your water is still just warming up._



Nuts and bolts.



Sub_Umbra said:


> ...Start out with the steam line from the cooker set (with valves) to vent all vapors. Once you get to 212 DF set the valves to go into the condenser and on to the product tank. When the temps in the cooker begin to climb much above 212 DF it means that (all) the water is *gone.* Go back into 'vent mode' and kill the heat source. *You're done.*
> 
> With this M.O. you must be *attentive* and *observant* but you will divert any contaminant with a boiling point below that of water's and you stop before the temps go high enough to bring across any chemical with a boiling point above water's.
> 
> Another benefit is that with a tight fractional distillation _you don't have to know what chemical is in the water_ (which would often be the case in an emergency). *This method just excludes them all.*


 It's not as complicated as it sounds. Anyone who could build a still could do this provided he had the parts _before the bell rang._ Having built two fuel alcohol stills (legally) during the *fuel crisis* in the late 1970s I would not be intimidated by the prospect of going fractional.

It would be *far simpler* to just buy a filter element _ahead of time_ for chemical contaminants. For under $50 in parts you can have everything you need to quickly cobble together a *siphon filter* to run water through to reduce chemical contamination.

Just lay the filter and hose on it's side in a food grade plastic bin and siphon any suspect water through it.

http://www.purewaterproducts.com/gravity.htm

It's the easiest way and you won't have to go out scrounging for parts.


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## Hooked on Fenix (Nov 16, 2012)

If I were to drink contaminated floodwater with no power to run a reverse osmosis filter, I would start by filling a 5 gallon bucket with the water. Wait awhile to allow some of the particles to sink to the bottom. Then Take a Katadyn Pocket filter with a carbon cartridge to pump the water into quart sized containers. Then use a Steripen to kill any viruses remaining. This setup is expensive, but is the bare minimum I would consider using for contaminated floodwater.

Contaminated floodwater will have a lot of debris in it which will clog a filter quickly. You need to let the particles settle some in a bucket to prevent clogging the filter. Next, there will be a lot of chemicals in the water. The carbon cartridge will take care of most chemicals. Next, the ceramic depth filter will ensure that bacteria and any remaining junk in the water is removed. Lastly, the steripen kills off any remaining viruses. If you can't properly treat the water, don't even try drinking it if it is really bad. Giardia and other parasites and bacteria can cause diarea and vomiting that will make you more thirsty (if nothing worse happens to you).


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## Quiksilver (Nov 16, 2012)

Hooked on Fenix said:


> If I were to drink contaminated floodwater with no power to run a reverse osmosis filter, I would start by filling a 5 gallon bucket with the water. Wait awhile to allow some of the particles to sink to the bottom. Then Take a Katadyn Pocket filter with a carbon cartridge to pump the water into quart sized containers. Then use a Steripen to kill any viruses remaining. This setup is expensive, but is the bare minimum I would consider using for contaminated floodwater.
> 
> Contaminated floodwater will have a lot of debris in it which will clog a filter quickly. You need to let the particles settle some in a bucket to prevent clogging the filter. Next, there will be a lot of chemicals in the water. The carbon cartridge will take care of most chemicals. Next, the ceramic depth filter will ensure that bacteria and any remaining junk in the water is removed. Lastly, the steripen kills off any remaining viruses. If you can't properly treat the water, don't even try drinking it if it is really bad. Giardia and other parasites and bacteria can cause diarea and vomiting that will make you more thirsty (if nothing worse happens to you).



Not many flood-affected people have Katadyn filters or Steri-pens ... I'd hazard to say that only 0.001% of people actually have a dedicated water filter like a Katadyn or MSR.


If I was someone who didnt have access to such things I'd probably build a sand/charcoal filter, as those two things are readily available here. 

That is good enough to filter it, then just boil it afterwards to kill whatevers left over. 

We get enough industrial waste in our tapwater these days (lead, sodium silicofluoride, pesticides, birth control substances, solvents, bisphenols, etc ... That a little mercury and other heavy contaminents might actually balance it out and do some good.


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 16, 2012)

Quiksilver said:


> Not many flood-affected people have Katadyn filters or Steri-pens ... I'd hazard to say that only 0.001% of people actually have a dedicated water filter like a Katadyn or MSR...


That's undoubtedly true but the filters are worth mentioning, IMO. Of those bit by any disaster a small but statistically significant group will recount their experiences and tell themselves *never again* will my family be so helpless if anything like this happens to us again and thus begin to take their first steps down the preparedness path. That, unfortunately, is _also_ a small demographic but this forum is search-able and I know from PMs I've gotten from far flung places that a few will, in fact, search here for ideas on how they may better their kit.

IMO making it easier for *even those few* who are interested in finding this info makes it worthwhile. In my town there are quite a few who have changed the way they think about preparedness in the last seven years since the big storm. It's still a relatively small percentage of the population but it's a good thing with ramifications radiating out through the city which are very positive on somewhat unexpected cultural fronts.


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## Lite_me (Nov 17, 2012)

*Slide-over of Hurricane Sandy...*   
  Slide your mouse over pictures (may take a minute to load -- look for the black vertical line and move your mouse across to drag before image to after image)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/hurricane-sandy-before-after-photos/


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## TedTheLed (Nov 18, 2012)

here's the best water filter that also removes viruses http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0051HHNJ8/?tag=cpf0b6-20 

it filters to .02 microns, and there is quite a bit discussion at amazon about the sawyer .1 vs. the .02 -- at the .1 sales page, one being less than half the cost of the other, with 5 times wider 'pores' than the other too.

Which one would you choose for hurricane use? what water would you be filtering, and what would you be trying to filter out? I'm glad I got the .02


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## oKtosiTe (Nov 18, 2012)

TedTheLed said:


> it filters to .02 microns, and there is quite a bit discussion at amazon about the sawyer .1 vs. the .02 -- at the .1 sales page, one being less than half the cost of the other, with 50 times wider 'pores' than the other too.



Wouldn't that be _five_ times wider?


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## Hooked on Fenix (Nov 18, 2012)

TedTheLed said:


> here's the best water filter that also removes viruses http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0051HHNJ8/?tag=cpf0b6-20
> 
> it filters to .02 microns, and there is quite a bit discussion at amazon about the sawyer .1 vs. the .02 -- at the .1 sales page, one being less than half the cost of the other, with 50 times wider 'pores' than the other too.
> 
> Which one would you choose for hurricane use? what water would you be filtering, and what would you be trying to filter out? I'm glad I got the .02



Sawyer's filters are great for backpacking and filtering water (that isn't full of sediment) with a water bag or bucket. However, they would stink at filtering out flood water that is full of sediment (making them clog quickly), and they do nothing to filter out chemicals. The .02 micron one would be fine for viruses, but would clog much more quickly with the smaller pore size. In addition, if water freezes inside them from a winter storm, they are permanently damaged and the next time they are used, the person drinking the water can become sick. I love Sawyer's filters for backpacking, camping and emergencies, but this is one application they are poorly suited for.


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## TedTheLed (Nov 18, 2012)

I dont suppose anything short of distillation would render flood water itself potable.

Freezing is just about the only ill this purifier is heir to. Not much of a threat around here.
Clogging is easily dealt with by simply reversing the flow with the supplied syringe..otherwise the flow rate from gravity alone is a claimed 1 liter a minute..


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## TedTheLed (Nov 18, 2012)

oKtosiTe said:


> Wouldn't that be _five_ times wider?



yes, thank you for the correction.


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## Hooked on Fenix (Nov 18, 2012)

TedTheLed said:


> I dont suppose anything short of distillation would render flood water itself potable.
> 
> Freezing is just about the only ill this purifier is heir to. Not much of a threat around here.
> Clogging is easily dealt with by simply reversing the flow with the supplied syringe..otherwise the flow rate from gravity alone is a claimed 1 liter a minute..



If you want to get a Sawyer filter for emergencies for yourself in southern California where, I agree, there is little chance of it freezing, go for it. It would be a great filter for you. However, this thread is about Hurricane Sandy and those living through it's aftermath on the east coast. They just got through a Noreaster that caused snow. I would not recommend the Sawyer filter for them at this time as it can easily freeze and get destroyed quickly if they use one. Please be careful when you say that freezing of the filter is not much of a threat around here. People on the East Coast may take this as an endorsement that it won't freeze under their current conditions instead of the warmer conditions of southern California where you are.


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## Burgess (Nov 18, 2012)

TedTheLed said:


> I dont suppose anything short of distillation would render flood water itself potable.




Not just* Distillation*, but *Fractional Distillation *!


See post # 213 by Sub_Umbra, above.


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## will (Nov 19, 2012)

My daughter had an apartment in Long Beach, that is on the south shore of Long Island. Fortunately, she was able to get some of her belongings out before the storm. The apartment did get flooded out and she did lose some furniture. She was not there during the storm and got back a few days after to clean out the apartment. 

She has been able to move to a new apartment in a different town. 

One comment, she has been dealing with F.E.M.A and has had a lot of good things to say about the agency. They have been helpful with her breaking her original lease and getting her security back. It could be she has been working with a 'good guy' or dealing with an apartment lose is simpler that dealing with a house. 

Long Beach is still a real mess. Flooding really makes a mess of everything, not just the regular mess from wind and rain in a hurricane. There are still issues with power restoration and just getting rid of all the debris.


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## TedTheLed (Nov 19, 2012)

Hooked, I lived in New York City for 15 years, I am aware of the weather there. I think youre nitpicking about the freezing issue. No one is going to die because they ordered a Sawyers .02 from Amazon. It wont die if it freezes without water in it. If its freezing out, and there is water in it, keep it warm in your place of abode, or in your pocket, like a good photographer keeps his, or her, film, or a flashaholic keeps it's batteries. Better to drink purified than not, especially when equipment and sources of heat may not be available..





Hooked on Fenix said:


> If you want to get a Sawyer filter for emergencies for yourself in southern California where, I agree, there is little chance of it freezing, go for it. It would be a great filter for you. However, this thread is about Hurricane Sandy and those living through it's aftermath on the east coast. They just got through a Noreaster that caused snow. I would not recommend the Sawyer filter for them at this time as it can easily freeze and get destroyed quickly if they use one. Please be careful when you say that freezing of the filter is not much of a threat around here. People on the East Coast may take this as an endorsement that it won't freeze under their current conditions instead of the warmer conditions of southern California where you are.


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## StarHalo (Mar 4, 2013)

A 30% increase in births is expected this summer for those areas affected by power outages during Hurricane Sandy. Glad you all on the East Coast found something to do!


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## EZO (Mar 4, 2013)

StarHalo said:


> A 30% increase in births is expected this summer for those areas affected by power outages during Hurricane Sandy. Glad you all on the East Coast found something to do!



There is a high likelihood that this is merely a myth, of the urban kind. The same statement was made after the Great Northeast Power Blackout of 1965 but was eventually revealed not to be true as has been the case in many other natural disasters where people are confined to their homes for long periods of time.

Of course, time will tell.


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## turbodog (May 2, 2013)

jabe1 said:


> All well said, and the power grid is just the tip of the iceberg. Our roads and bridges are in a sad state also, not to mention our high speed internet capability. Most of those in charge are short sighted and only can see quarterly profit margins.



Ironic that you're calling people in charge 'short sighted' and this thread is full of people complaining about a few days without power.


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## jtr1962 (May 2, 2013)

turbodog said:


> Ironic that you're calling people in charge 'short sighted' and this thread is full of people complaining about a few days without power.


Actually, people without power _is_ related to the short-sightedness of those in charge. This area has plenty of trees and other things which take power lines out of commission in heavy winds or heavy snow (both of which occur often enough around here that they should enter into long-term planning decisions). As a result, all the power lines should have been buried decades ago. Yes, it'll be a hit on the profits of the local utility during the tenure of whatever CEO happens to be in charge then, but it's the correct thing to do in the long term. Down the road the utility will save more than it spends fixing the same power lines over and over again. Because any expensive capital projects impact the next several quarters at least, they never get done. Another great example-electrifying the mainline freight railroads. Once diesel fuel passed about $2 a gallon this would save money over the long haul. And of course, it wasn't done because none of the RR CEOs wanted to be the ones with a big loss from electrifying during their tenure. It wasn't like this 75 or 100 years ago. People spent more now if necessary to save even more down the road. The fact is _far fewer people should have lost power_. And power should have been restored a lot quicker to those who did. Modern society can't function without electricity. Remember this is an area where people are very heavily dependent upon electrical power. Imagine some elderly person needing to climb 20 flights of stairs because the elevator is out. And what about the subway tunnels going under the East River being out of service for weeks due to flooding? All of this, including the ConEd substations which were flooded because they were underground in lower Manhattan, could have been averted with better planning. Yes, we got through it, but future storms will probably come even more often, and might be even worse. In my opinion, the entire Northeast dodged a bullet this time. Yes, we sustained heavy damage, but if not through sheer luck it would have been way worse. If the storm surge was another 2 or 3 feet higher, even more of the subway would have been out of commission. I hope we learned from this storm. Good disaster planning involves doing whatever you can to prevent the worst from occurring, not fixing stuff which didn't need to break after the fact.


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## TEEJ (May 3, 2013)

I believe the irony was that the people who did not plan for needing a flashlight, etc....were complaining about the power company not being prepared. IE: The pot calling the kettle black. 

So, YES, BOTH were not prepared....and, YES, both SHOULD HAVE BEEN.


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## will (May 7, 2013)

Does anyone really think that the existing power companies will spend the $$$ to bury the power lines? Trees will no longer knock down the lines, but, underground? What about water damage? There are lots of areas on Long Island that are currently subject to flooding. LIPA ( power company ) does routinely trim branches away from the power lines. Unfortunately, when the entire tree goes down, it will take the wires with it. 

Natural disasters will occur from time to time, no matter how prepared we can be, there will still be issues.


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## jtr1962 (May 7, 2013)

will said:


> Does anyone really think that the existing power companies will spend the $$$ to bury the power lines? Trees will no longer knock down the lines, but, underground? What about water damage? There are lots of areas on Long Island that are currently subject to flooding. LIPA ( power company ) does routinely trim branches away from the power lines. Unfortunately, when the entire tree goes down, it will take the wires with it.


We can run cables on the bottom of oceans with no problems. Certainly we can put power lines underground which aren't harmed by water. Sure, the power companies don't want to spend the money to bury the cables because in all likelihood the financial benefits of doing so won't happen until the next CEO's tenure, or perhaps the one after that. It's all the same type of short-sighted mentality. Nobody is willing to have losses under their watch to pay for a large capital project, no matter what the long term benefits of that project. Anyway, besides the obvious freedom from tree damage, buried power lines have lots of other advantages. Their temperature is more stable, thus making any electrical properties which vary with temperature more stable. And you get rid of the ugly mess of overhead power lines which is an aesthetic eyesore.

There will of course always be unforeseen problems when natural disasters strike. That shouldn't preclude reasonable preparations, such as burying power lines in storm-prone areas, and making structures out of reinforced concrete instead of timber in areas prone to hurricanes.


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## will (May 7, 2013)

jtr1962 said:


> We can run cables on the bottom of oceans with no problems. Certainly we can put power lines underground which aren't harmed by water.



A single power line in the ocean is different than power lines buried in a residential area. It is relatively easy to waterproof a single line that goes for a few miles. Residential areas would need connections for each household. There also has to be access for all the step down transformers. Those are the large cans, you see on every few poles.


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## EZO (May 7, 2013)

will said:


> Does anyone really think that the existing power companies will spend the $$$ to bury the power lines? Trees will no longer knock down the lines, but, underground? What about water damage? There are lots of areas on Long Island that are currently subject to flooding. LIPA ( power company ) does routinely trim branches away from the power lines. Unfortunately, when the entire tree goes down, it will take the wires with it.
> 
> Natural disasters will occur from time to time, no matter how prepared we can be, there will still be issues.



Municipalities, even smaller ones bury power lines all the time. Many towns in Vermont have opted to bury their power lines. Since we often experience ice storms the initial costs of burial lead to long term savings in repairs and fewer power outages. Additionally, a few towns that are comprised of architecturally important historical buildings have had the opportunity to eliminate telephone poles and wires and thus maintain the vintage look and feel of what the town was like long ago. Literally, just yesterday, our local paper published an article about the town of Jamaica Vermont opting to bury some of its power cables while a sidewalk was being torn up.

(Since the link I've included may disappear, here is an excerpt.) 
*Jamaica Selectboard approves burying wires*

By CHRIS MAYS / Reformer Staff
Posted: 05/06/2013 03:00:00 AM EDT
Updated: 05/06/2013 07:25:07 AM EDT

Monday May 6, 2013 JAMAICA -- The Selectboard decided to move forward with putting electrical wires underground while a sidewalk project is still in works. 

"If you drive down and look at the island, you see a telephone pole that the (Jamaica Community) Church uses to light the church," said board member Lou Bruso. "So, my idea was that since the sidewalk is going to be ripped out next to the church, they're going to put the handicap access ramp in there, that that will be an ideal time to perhaps take that wiring and put it underground rather than run it over to that pole." 

Bruso told the board about his idea to put the wires underground at the previous Selectboard meeting, which will include removing the telephone pole and the stake, then putting the wiring from the church undergound. 
On April 29, Bruso brought price estimates to present to the Selectboard. The project was approved after discussion."


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## will (May 7, 2013)

I think that putting the power underground is a good idea overall. There are some hybrid setups, the main feeder lines are underground, then they go above ground to the individual drops. In addition to the power lines on the poles, there are the following:
Cable TV
Old copper telephone lines
the new FIOS - Verizon's version of cable TV using all fiber lines.


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## EZO (May 7, 2013)

For the most part, at least around here, everything goes up on the poles but as I've mentioned previously lines are often being buried. One of the the things I've seen happening is that new fiber optic is being placed underground in conduits that can handle whatever else comes along in the future, either electrical or telecommunications.


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## will (May 8, 2013)

EZO said:


> One of the the things I've seen happening is that new fiber optic is being placed underground in conduits that can handle whatever else comes along in the future, either electrical or telecommunications.



The 'OLD' phone company some years back did bury conduit along the main lines. These are serviced by tombstones, those boxes that seem to come out of the ground. Still, when they get to the residential areas, they go back up on the poles.


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## EZO (May 8, 2013)

will, I'm not quite sure what you mean by the "OLD" phone company, we have a fairly new one in northern New England, FairPoint. Be that as it may, here in mostly rural Vermont the term "residential area" often has a whole different meaning. As I've said previously, in most places everything is indeed up on poles but increasingly lines are being buried, even out where I live in the middle of nowhere. It is important to consider that not everywhere matches your frame of reference in New York.


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## will (May 8, 2013)

EZO said:


> will, I'm not quite sure what you mean by the "OLD" phone company,



I think the sequence of phone companies went something like this - New York Telephone, bought out by Bell Atlantic, bought out by NYNEX, bought out by Verizon....

Not sure if it was New York Telephone or NYNEX that installed the underground conduit. 

I am referring to a suburban area, not rural. They buried the conduit on the major roads, where it gets to the actual houses, it comes above ground.


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## EZO (May 8, 2013)

will said:


> I think the sequence of phone companies went something like this - New York Telephone, bought out by Bell Atlantic, bought out by NYNEX, bought out by Verizon....
> 
> Not sure if it was New York Telephone or NYNEX that installed the underground conduit.
> 
> I am referring to a suburban area, not rural. They buried the conduit on the major roads, where it gets to the actual houses, it comes above ground.



The path was similar here but Verizon eventually sold off their land lines in these parts to FairPoint.

Yes, most of the conduits are along major roads and the last mile, or whatever goes to the houses via wires and poles. On the other hand it is quite common now that telephone and electrical power are also taken from the utility poles and run underground to homes and businesses. There are several reasons for this. It is less unsightly to eliminate the wires, it is far more reliable during storms and it is much less expensive than having to install extra utility poles (sometimes at the property owner's expense). Here in Vermont there are many (very well maintained) dirt roads, so it is no big deal to dig a trench across a road to install conduit to a building since it doesn't require tearing up and repairing pavement.


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## will (May 8, 2013)

There are no dirt roads, they are all either asphalt, or concrete, ( in some cases, asphalt over a concrete base )


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## Poppy (May 8, 2013)

StarHalo said:


> Big pot-little pot:





Sub_Umbra said:


> Exactly *but if you don't know what's contaminating your water* _plain distillation may not help *at all.*_
> 
> 
> If you are trying to trying to remove chemicals distillation will not (always) be enough. You will need *fractional distillation* to remove many chemicals from water (by distillation.)
> ...



Sorry Guys, I just wanted to revisit this section of the thread.

I just want to get some clarification regarding fractional distilling.

Considering the fact that I am not about to build a still, complete with valves, thermometers, cooling tubes and such, I'd like to know if this would work.

Let's say that I have a 6-8 quart pot and fill it half way with water and bring it to a boil. How long would I have to let it boil until I'd be able to consider it safe to start distilling? IOW for acetone and other more volitile products to evaporate out?
Then I could do the cup in a pot trick noted in the picture to distill water. When the water level gets low enough, I can toss it and start over (considering that it might contain heavy metals or whatever).


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## TEEJ (May 8, 2013)

Poppy said:


> Sorry Guys, I just wanted to revisit this section of the thread.
> 
> I just want to get some clarification regarding fractional distilling.
> 
> ...




You want to evaporate the water to steam, and then condense the steam, and collect the water that results. This leaves the particles and heavy metals, etc, behind.

Of course, the VOC evaporate sooner than the water itself, so you can start by NOT boiling the water, just getting it hot enough, and aerated enough, to drive off the VOC from it. If you know your VOC of concern, you can use ITS boiling point to drive it off, etc.

So the quick and dirty method is to get the water hot enough and stirred enough to evaporate the lower BP chemicals (Lower than 212º F), perhaps quite a while if there's a lot of crap in there, etc. If you collect whatever evaporates off before the water, you may be able to use it as fuel. If you want a VOC with a PARTICULAR BP, you can bring the water to the target's BP, and collect it separately (How a still to make moonshine works, etc...).

A sub-212º condenser (~ 211º F) set-up can be one direction to allow the distillate to go until ready for clean water....then switch to the potable plumbing to get the good stuff.

Use 212º F for the potable after the VOC's are out. Don't go higher to speed things up, as there ARE things with higher BP too...that you might want to leave behind.


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## Poppy (May 8, 2013)

Thanks TEEJ, I understand the concept, but here's my thought.
First in a crappy situation, I may not have a thermometer, nor will it be likely that I'd know what VOCs are in the water, who knows? 
Without a thermometer, at sea-level water boils at 212F give or take a degee or two. Without a cover, I don't think that you could heat it much over that, maybe a degree or two (correct me if I am wrong). So I'm thinking that it takes time to get to that temp, and by time I get it to boil, and let it boil for idk... ten minutes, by then I'd hope that the more volitile VOCs would have escaped. Leaving me with a pot of water and things that need to get hotter than 212 to evaporate.

Do you think that 10 minutes of boiling would be long enough? If not... can you think of a way to determine when the last of the VOCs have evaporated out?


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## Poppy (May 8, 2013)

I realized that my last question was similar to "How long is a string?" 

Wondering how hard it would be to separate out deadly hydrocarbons by distilling them I found this table... I hope it presents well.

Fuels and their boiling points at atmospheric pressure can be found in the table below.


_T(o​C) = 5/9[T(o​F) - 32]_

Fuel
Boiling Point (o​F)
Acetaldehyde
70
Acetone
134
Acetylene
-119.2
Benzene
176.2
Butylene
21.2
Ethyl Alcohol
172
Ethane
-127.5
Ethylene
-154.7
Fuels Oil No.1
304 - 574
Gasoline
100 - 400
IsoButane
10.9
Isobutene
19.6
Isopropyl alcohol
181
Iso-Octane
243.9
IsoPentane
82.2
Kerosine
304 - 574
Methane (Natural Gas)
-258.7
Methyl Alcohol
149
n-Butane
31.1
n-Heptane
209.1
n-Hexane
155.7
n-Octane
258.3
n-Pentane
97.0
n-Pentene
86.0
Naphthalene
424.4
NeoPentane
49.1
NeoHexane
121.5
Propane
-43.8
Propylene
-53.9
Triptane
177.6
Toluene
231.1
Xylene
281.1




_T(o​C) = 5/9[T(o​F) - 32]_
 I'm thinking that the most likely contaminents (other than biological) would be gasoline and fuel oils, or that they would be the ones in the highest concentrations, in a flooding scenario. I'm also thinking that for the most part these baddies will float on water. And if we started with a five gallon bucket and skimmed off the top layer to whatever level seemed prudent that we would eliminate the bulk of this stuff without distilling it.

tolulene has the closest boiling point to water of those listed above, but it is also lighter than water and should therefore float to the top.
Actually n-heptane is the closest but it is so much lighter than water it should certainly float to the top.


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## TEEJ (May 8, 2013)

Notice I used 212º and less than 212º as cut-points.

Water boils at 212º, so, when it boils, that's the temperature...just get it there and hold it for the potable part.

If you get it to boil, and back off ANY AT ALL, it will stop boiling. (You can have hot spots if you have a pot on a burner instead of evenly distributed heat, etc....but this is for EMERGENCY water...)

So, the ~ 211º water loses the VOC that boil at 211º or less.....let it do it, mixing it, etc. (If you see a rainbow sheen on the water, well, its definitely still got VOC. 

If you put a condenser on the steam coming off the 211º water, it might contain something other than water...and you might be able to burn it, etc. 

What's LEFT is the stuff that DOESN'T boil off at 211º F for your purposes.

Raise the temp just enough to GET the boil, and that will be 212º F for your purposes....condense it with a different condenser (Not the one you used to collect the toxins...), and that's the part you drink.



IE: Unless you pressurize the container, or add salt/have a very mineral loaded source, the water won't go much above 212º on a boil. (Those things won't follow the water after it turns to steam though)


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## Poppy (May 8, 2013)

> (If you see a rainbow sheen on the water, well, its definitely still got VOC.


Thanks brother... that's what I needed to know.


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## Norman (May 11, 2013)

Is it true that there are Verizon customers that still DO NOT have service??
http://www.newnetworks.com/VerizonNYC.htm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/28/verizon-sandy-new-york_n_2782664.html


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## PhotonWrangler (May 11, 2013)

I can understand Verizon not being able to access some buildings for access to conduits. I can't understand them not having enough fiber optic equipment.


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## Monocrom (May 11, 2013)

PhotonWrangler said:


> I c an understand Verizon not being able to access some buildings for access to conduits. I can't understand them not having enough fiber optic equipment.



I can.

At one point in time, I had to deal with Verizon rather extensively. Based on simply my own personal experience, I found the company to be very unprofessional. Got rid of Verizon, and will never have anything directly to do with them. Ironically, they still keep contacting me. When I tell them to leave me alone, they keep asking why I was unhappy with them. Next representative foolish enough to ring my door-bell will find out why indeed.


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## Norman (May 12, 2013)

If you tell them not to call, and they do, doesn't that fall under harassment? Isn't there somebody that can deal with these complaints? Typically, the telephone company would be the starting point, but since Verizon IS a phone company, you'd need to go above them. Who licences the local phone carriers? The next time you see a cop on the street, ask. They should know the next step because the following one would likely be pressing charges...

Apparently Verizon has too many employees. I ran across another story saying they're trying to cut their staffing levels (don't remember if it was just service crews). So I guess there's no rush on getting these people their DSL & phone service.


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## Monocrom (May 12, 2013)

Calls I can deal with, but these geniuses ring my door-bell. I live in a building which has an agreement with Verizon. Basically, they use our roof as a cell tower. They enter the building somewhat often. Usually under the pretext of maintenance or to check that everything is still okay with their equipment. In exchange, the building's residents are supposed to get a discount if they switch phone, internet, and cable service to Verizon. But having spoken with many of my neighbors, I know that most got rid of Verizon after switching. We used to have an agreement with Time Warner Cable. 

Though not ideal, that agreement was significantly better for us than the one with Verizon. And if all they're doing is maintenance, why is it that the Verizon reps. who ring our door-bells are always young women with manicured fingers, and nice dresses. Not a jumpsuit, tool-belt, or speck of dirt in sight. I'm supposed to be believe that's the standard uniform for their maintenance crews?? They've also pulled some other unprofessional nonsense in the building (and just outside of it) to get residents to switch. Or, more accurately, switch back to Verizon after having gotten rid of the service.


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## PhotonWrangler (May 12, 2013)

Monocrom said:


> They've also pulled some other unprofessional nonsense in the building (and just outside of it) to get residents to switch. Or, more accurately, switch back to Verizon after having gotten rid of the service.



I'm going to take a wild guess here. Did they mess with the other provider's service?


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## Monocrom (May 13, 2013)

PhotonWrangler said:


> I'm going to take a wild guess here. Did they mess with the other provider's service?



Not aware of that taking place. But harassing building residents as they come home from work, after admitting they were unhappy with Verizon . . . I'd call that unprofessional. They even set up a "customer appreciation" table right by the front door. The co-ops' Board members responsible with the deal with Verizon, ALL got replaced with new members when election time rolled around. (It wasn't even close.) The new members at least put an end to Verizon's version of "customer appreciation."


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## PhotonWrangler (May 13, 2013)

Monocrom said:


> Not aware of that taking place. But harassing building residents as they come home from work, after admitting they were unhappy with Verizon . . . I'd call that unprofessional. They even set up a "customer appreciation" table right by the front door. The co-ops' Board members responsible with the deal with Verizon, ALL got replaced with new members when election time rolled around. (It wasn't even close.) The new members at least put an end to Verizon's version of "customer appreciation."



Well that's mildly encouraging.


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## StarHalo (May 14, 2013)

I loved having FiOS, just not paying for it. In the era of Hulu/Amazon Prime, I'm not really seeing the point of paying more than ~$20/mo for television..


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