# Why is Surefire so expensive



## skstretch (Jul 2, 2018)

Why is Surefire so expensiveSurely they have to try and compete Nice torches but way over prices for specs


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## Timothybil (Jul 2, 2018)

Its not just the specs, it is the customer service as well. Also, they have a lot of government and military contracts that require keeping parts available even after the light is discontinued. All of that adds up. This might not apply to some of their newer lights, but they have always had a reputation for reliability. To paraphrase an old Timex ad - They take a licking and keep on shining. Go to their website and read some of the stories that owners have submitted over the years.


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## search_and_rescue (Jul 3, 2018)

They have a real lifetime warranty. I love Surefire very much. If it were not for the superb performance and top customer service from vinh at Sky Lumen, I would definitely choose Surefire as my next favorite for performance, reliability, and quality.

A few years ago, before I discovered Sky Lumen, a colleague asked me which weaponlight to buy for his AR-15? My immediate response was Surefire. ❤️

Yes their UDR Dominator is antiquated, but right now if I had to mount an illumination device onto a handgun, shotgun, or rifle, a Surefire weaponlight is the only weaponlight brand I will trust completely, fully, and wholeheartedly, with my life, even in 2018. 😀


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## MikeSalt (Jul 3, 2018)

Interestingly, Surefire has proved to be the least reliable brand of $10+ lights I've ever owned. I had an E1e with a small imperfection in the glass, which on the first drop became a big crack. I had another incident with the E1e where the internals of the click switch just disintegrated leaving it stuck 'on' (could still turn it off by unscrewing the tail slightly). And finally a bulb in a G2 that failed before the first set of batteries had depleted. To Surefire's credit, despite dealing with an international customer, replacement parts were sent out quickly, no questions asked, including free CR123 cells for my trouble. Also, I think my experience of 2 failures out of 2 lights owned is the exception, not the rule.


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## mauiblue (Jul 3, 2018)

For all my weapon lights needs, I've only used SureFire. From shotgun to AR-15 to my Glock pistols, SureFire is the one that lights the way. I had an issue with my X300 years ago and SureFire fixed it AND sent me a dozen CR123 cells. Personally for me, they are the BEST.


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## Modernflame (Jul 3, 2018)

While they do have two or three models that I consider to be astronomically priced, their pricing is generally in line with other popular US made brands.


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## ven (Jul 3, 2018)

skstretch said:


> Why is Surefire so expensiveSurely they have to try and compete Nice torches but way over prices for specs




Expensive, maybe compared to others, just as a $15,000 rolex is expensive compared to a seiko...................yet both will tell the time just fine for years. 

I can only speak for me here, but my attraction is the USA made, the reputation, the military side, their natural HA is excellent. Also there is no need to pay RRP in many cases, these can be inflated . Looking/shopping about can save some serious $'s.

I love the old p60 design and format as it never gets old. I can have classic surefire built for life, with a modern interior of latest LED/s and driver for the p60. I admit other than the tactician and odd new light, there is not much that does interest me at present. But in hand its a different light, its an experience and an occasion you get during use. 

I cant beat up $500 lights..............just cant, so i find suitable surefire and get it to what i want for work. So basically i have surefire beater lights that dont have much more than $100 tied up in. For that i could have a sparkly fenix or nitecore instead. More lumens with an ice cold beam topped with angry blue tint.............no thanks! Or i can have some nice nichia 219b or 219c programmed to the lumen for my application in mind. My mCclicky fails.....................swap out for new in under a minute on the fly. Driver decides to give up..................seconds later i am running again. So much flexibility , try that with a nitecore, after shipping and waiting! Too add, i am yet to have a fail

Tough, yes and tested, after a high drop that would push any light , 6p with sportac triple 219b took a good drop from a scissor lift, maybe 20ft up on conveyor maintenance. The light was on when dropped, the light never flickered and remained on, the result






Placed on a vice edge, mallet and a couple of persuasion taps..............good as round





Thats a 6p you can pick up for $50, and a $30-$35 2 mode triple
So good and impressed, i must have 5 or 6 of them





z2's i love




Along with other classic flavours





Although small by many on here in collection, here are a few i have at home





I am late to the party...................prefer sometimes as it gives me time to get it right 1st time!





But i put my surefire family in high regard and will always be a special part of my collection(and users). Not for everyone, but how boring it would be if we all like the same. My advice would be try one out, lumens are not the be all and end all of a flashlight(believe or not), there are many more parts to the puzzle. 

Never judge a light by its lumen(or price)
:welcome:


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## night.hoodie (Jul 3, 2018)

My favorite answer given for the expensive prices of Surefire hardware is here, to paraphrase, Surefire is still and likely will remain a relatively small or medium-sized private company, and can only manufacture finite amounts of their product, and their massive supply contracts depleting thier stock and non-supply contract market demand for their limited quantities has inflated the street prices to what they are. So long as the market will bear those prices, they will remain what they are, even apparently in the used Surefire market.

Why is _gold_ so crazy expensive? How many individual gold consumers do anything more than hoard or wear the gold? Compared to a flashlight, gold really has no purpose for any average unskilled-in-working-gold consumer. But the answer is, mindless market-forces set the price of gold, no matter how much better flashlights are than gold.


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## Slumber (Jul 3, 2018)

Current Surefire's aren't too expensive. You have to ignore the MSRP and shop around a little. I do see some old models for sell from "collectors" that are ridiculously priced.


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## seery (Jul 3, 2018)

A lions share of the selling price is determined by the cost of advertising and warranty.

And Surefire doesn't skimp on either of those.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 3, 2018)

I wasn't going to post in this thread, as this topic is like beating a dead horse around here, and has been for many years, and these threads always end up getting locked, but I feel I must.

I don't buy the comments like "more Surefire lights failing than any other brand combined", or "Surefire has proved to be the least reliable brand",​ not for a split second.

You can make the arguments that Surefire is overpriced, you can make the arguments that they are behind the times in technology, but one thing you can't do is dispute that they are rock solid, dependable products. The Q&A may be slipping up in recent times, you might get a smudge on a lens, or some dirt on a reflector, but those things do not take away from the actual reliability of the light.

Surefire lights have been in hostile environments for decades, from heavy police duty to active warzones. They have been blown up, ran over, crushed, and even shot with projectiles, and survived, and continued to work. This has been documented. No other brand can make this claim. You can say that your Chinese light could do the same, but the difference is that is a theoretical, whereas the Surefire HAS been there and done it, and proved it could survive the worst conditions possible.

Military, Special Forces, SEALS, Police, all rely on Surefire, not because of Government contracts, but because they have EARNED a reputation for utter reliability. Find me an Elite US Special Forces weapon that's doesn't have a Surefire Weaponlight. You won't.

Then there is the warranty. Best in the business hands down. Allow me to share just a few stories of how excellent they treat their customers. Years ago I purchased my second 10X Dominator from Ebay. The item was described as "Like New". Received it, and the light was total junk. Batteries were shot, glass was horribly scratched, bulbs were blown, the works. I contacted Surefire, explained the situation, and within a few weeks a BRAND NEW 10X Dominator was at my door step. What's more important to note is this light had been discontinued for years. Surefire keeps a large supply of replacement parts for old discontinued lights on hand, and that is part of why the prices are higher. You won't see any of the naysayers mention that when discussing the price.

I called them a month or so ago, explained I had an old incandescent light that I could no longer find bulbs or batteries for. What was there response? Send it in to us, and we will send you back a new light. A week or so later an brand new EDCL-2T was at my doorstep.

Can any of you tell of experiences like this with your Chinese lights? I don't think you can.

Back to reliability, it seems like every single day there are threads popping up, "My Brand X has a problem" "My new Brand X light has issues" time and time again. Do a google search here on the forums, and you will clearly see that Surefire has far far less of these types of threads ever popping up. The evidence speaks for itself.

I will admit, Surefire isn't quite the powerhouse they used to be, some of the technology in their lights is behind a lot of the Chinese manufacturers. Their outputs are not as bright, and many times they don't have as many features.

But one thing I will not stand for is them being described as Unreliable. Because that is completely untrue.

To finish, I'll share a small sample of the difference in reliability between Surefire and other brands. The evidence speaks for itself around the 2:50 second mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhj3XvW81V8


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## MikeSalt (Jul 3, 2018)

I was careful to qualify my comments with that being my personal experience. I acknowledge that statistically this is an outlier. 

There are many on this forum that will vouch for my honesty and integrity.


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## archimedes (Jul 3, 2018)

I always find this to be an interesting choice of topic, for a first thread from brand new members here ... and am curious as to when they may next be back to comment.


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## ampdude (Jul 3, 2018)

MikeSalt said:


> Interestingly, Surefire has proved to be the least reliable brand of $10+ lights I've ever owned. I had an E1e with a small imperfection in the glass, which on the first drop became a big crack. I had another incident with the E1e where the internals of the click switch just disintegrated leaving it stuck 'on' (could still turn it off by unscrewing the tail slightly). And finally a bulb in a G2 that failed before the first set of batteries had depleted. To Surefire's credit, despite dealing with an international customer, replacement parts were sent out quickly, no questions asked, including free CR123 cells for my trouble. Also, I think my experience of 2 failures out of 2 lights owned is the exception, not the rule.



MikeSalt, I find your experience with the lens odd. The temperature resistant glass lens on the E1e/E2e is VERY thick and even dropping the lens should not have had the effect you described. I've never seen one cracked and I'd also find it very odd if it came that way new out of the box.

The other two things you mentioned I can likely explain. First of all, the clicky switch. The early 1st revision Surefire Z57/Z61 was a piece of crap, to put it mildly. I'm guessing you had the first revision. I had a few of these that failed as well back in the day, and that's what lead to my preference for sticking with the original Z52/Z53/Z54 twisty. I once took a first gen Z57 apart that had failed exactly as how you described (failed in the on position, but I could use it like a twisty to twist on and off the light) and sprayed the parts with breakfree CLP or some type of gun lube, I don't remember for certain this was over ten years ago. I remember having a bunch of crap out on the table, it was a lot of parts and trying to figure out how to put it back together was annoying. When I reassembled the switch it worked fine, but I never trusted it fully after that. Around 2006 or 2007 Surefire came out with a new revision of the switch that had a self contained clicky mechanism that is night and day more reliable than the original Z57. I believe most of those had a white plastic housing. They lasted for a very short time, and the only ones I ever saw were in E2e's that were being closed out in the zippered pouch from certain retailers. Then shortly after that around 2007 they released another revision of the Z57 with the self contained clicky mechanism, but in a black plastic body surrounded by a metal colander. I'm not sure if they were using different vendors, or they just made the change in color to signify the latest revision. That is the internal clicky mechanism that Surefire put on incan E series lights until they were discontinued and both of the final revisions are very reliable.

Now the lamp assembly. I'm assuming you're most likely talking about a P60 or possibly a P61. Over the years I've had VERY FEW Surefire lamps actually fail on me. In fact there's only one that distinctly comes to mind as I was working a night security shift, it was a new lamp, a P90, and after less than a minute maybe two minutes as it was acting funny, it left me in the dark until I found my backup light in a completely dark building. But, there have been a couple of others, I just can't place them. I've noticed from many hundreds of lamps that if a lamp is good it will last many hundreds of hours without even darkening even though I believe the average rated life on a lot of their tactical bulbs is around 25-30hrs. In my experience if the lamp is bad from the factory, it will fail within the first five or ten minutes. I've had more than one fail this way. If it's a normal good lamp, it will last a really long time. So, it is likely that you experienced, a bad bulb.

And from what I remember, this is years ago, but I sent in photos of the blown lamp assembly to Surefire with the stamped date code and I think they sent me a new P90 even though they don't normally warranty their lamp assemblies or batteries.


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## Modernflame (Jul 3, 2018)

night.hoodie said:


> But the answer is, mindless market-forces set the price of gold, *no matter how much better flashlights are than gold.*



Would have been easy to overlook that little gem dangling from the end of your post. Well played, sir.


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## lightfooted (Jul 4, 2018)

I'm kinda with Archimedes here but I'm bored so...my question is more to Ven: If you replace everything but the tube with other manufacturer's parts, is it still truly a Surefire flashlight? I don't mean just dropping in a Li-Ion cell...but when the light source and driver/controller isn't what Surefire put in it then how can it be?


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## MikeSalt (Jul 4, 2018)

Even with my experience of Surefire, I'd still not consider them expensive for what they are. Very fine lights.


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## Cerealand (Jul 4, 2018)

They were the best P60 hosts for quite a while. Bored for 18650 by Oveready was a plus.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jul 4, 2018)

archimedes said:


> I always find this to be an interesting choice of topic, for a first thread from brand new members here ... and *am curious as to when they may next be back to comment.*


 

Cue Final Jeopardy music ..... 

While we wait, why is the sky blue? Discuss amongst yourselves. 

~ CG


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## bykfixer (Jul 4, 2018)

I understand why SureFire are expensive. 
But why are LED Lenser so expensive?


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## MikeSalt (Jul 4, 2018)

bykfixer said:


> But why are LED Lenser so expensive?



I quite liked my LED Lenser David 15. Don't remember it being silly money though.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 4, 2018)

I've owned 3 LED Lenser lights over the years. Paid decent money for them too at the time. 2 broke after a few years usage, and one still works, unreliably.

I called their customer service one time to ask a question, and the lady was completely clueless. Was asked to leave a message for their "technical department" which I did, and never got a response back.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jul 4, 2018)

bykfixer said:


> I understand why SureFire are expensive.
> But why are LED Lenser so expensive?


 
I think Fixer was just joking...... CanOWorms - joke.

~ CG


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## peter yetman (Jul 4, 2018)

Too early to say.
"In for the close?"
And to answer Arch's question, I think the OP lit the blue touchpaper and retired.

P


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## Lucky Jim (Jul 4, 2018)

lightfooted said:


> I'm kinda with Archimedes here but I'm bored so...my question is more to Ven: If you replace everything but the tube with other manufacturer's parts, is it still truly a Surefire flashlight? I don't mean just dropping in a Li-Ion cell...but when the light source and driver/controller isn't what Surefire put in it then how can it be?



An interesting philosophical question - the Ship of Theseus - or if you fancy an amusing parallel ... Trigger’s Broom (search this together with Only Fools and Horses).


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## bykfixer (Jul 4, 2018)

^^ What?


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jul 4, 2018)

bykfixer said:


> ^^ What?



You weren't joking?  

~ Chance


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## bykfixer (Jul 4, 2018)

The first time I was. But post 25 went over my head like a 747 at JFK.


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## Slumber (Jul 4, 2018)

bykfixer said:


> The first time I was. But post 25 went over my head like a 747 at JFK.



It looked like homework.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 4, 2018)

peter yetman said:


> Too early to say.
> "In for the close?"
> And to answer Arch's question, I think the OP lit the blue touchpaper and retired.
> 
> P



He was trolling just to get people stirred up. Historically there have been many "Why are Surefire's so expensive" threads and most of them went down in flames. This one may follow the same course.

Bill


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jul 4, 2018)

Bullzeyebill said:


> *He was trolling just to get people stirred up*. Historically there have been many "Why are Surefire's so expensive" threads and most of them went down in flames. This one may follow the same course.
> 
> Bill



So all the members that took time to provide a thoughtful reply weren't really -


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## Burgess (Jul 5, 2018)

Why is Surefire so Expen$ive ? ? ?


So they can pay their high-priced LAWYERS !





( sorry, just couldn't resist any longer . . . . )


lovecpf
_


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## MikeSalt (Jul 5, 2018)

Bullzeyebill said:


> He was trolling just to get people stirred up. Historically there have been many "Why are Surefire's so expensive" threads and most of them went down in flames. This one may follow the same course.
> 
> Bill



Bill, as moderator, can you send this link to the email address they used to register here and watch the OP completely lose it? 

Of course, we know the history that justifies that cost.


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## subwoofer (Jul 5, 2018)

Bullzeyebill said:


> He was trolling just to get people stirred up. Historically there have been many "Why are Surefire's so expensive" threads and most of them went down in flames. This one may follow the same course.
> 
> Bill



Not knowing the history of those other threads, I do wonder if the OP just gets scared off by all the replies. I know my own start when joining a forum was a bumpy one when I asked a genuine question and got shot down in flames. Sometimes it takes a while to get the courage up to respond to the longer standing members. Still might be a troll, but also might be a little nervous about the quantity and force of the replies.


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## Boris74 (Jul 5, 2018)

I was a surefire junkie but I could never get any to last more than 3-5 years and the warranty does not cover normal “wear and tear”. It’s what I was told when I tried to use it. It was tough but I jumped ship early last year. I’m giving nitecore, Olight and Streamlight a good trial period. Some are just over a year of wear and tear doing just as good, at a fraction of the cost. At this rate I’d save money if my MT10A needed replacing every year compared to the similar sized E1B that was my perfect light for just under 6 years before its wear and tear trash can journey. 

I dont dislike hate hate or bash them. They just aren’t built any better than other high end lights at lesser prices. Last night I was with a bunch of vet friends and one is a new police officer. He thought only surefire existed, showed him my Streamlight HL-X and that’s it. Surefire isn’t an option that he was saving up for anymore. The Streamlight is brighter and is a solid light with obvious wear and tear marks all over it. 

They have a great brand loyalty following. Good lights and we know why the price is so high. In the end, which is what all I care about, putting light on the stuff I want to see, is all I care about. I’m not keeping up with Mr. Jones. If someone don’t like the price and needs light get something else. If they need light and have to be purely tacticool then surefire it up. The only one up to them is $ per lumen and being cool to friends or the internet.


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## ChattanoogaPhil (Jul 5, 2018)

Are they all that expensive? 

MidwayUSA Orders
Somewhere around 2010-11 Surefire G3 special run $29
I've since upgraded the G3 with a Malkoff M61 I think was around $40.

B&H Orders
2014 Surefire P3X $155 delivered.
2015 Surefire G2X Pro $63 delivered. 
2016 Surefire Titan Plus $80 delivered. 

eBay 
2018 Surefire Sidekick $40 delivered. 
2017 Surefire XC1 $180 delivered. 


-----

Doesn't seem all that expensive to me. Heck, it costs me $100 to take the wife out to dinner and a movie, and all I get out of that is heartburn and a 90-minute nap. :laughing:


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## ven (Jul 5, 2018)

lightfooted said:


> I'm kinda with Archimedes here but I'm bored so...my question is more to Ven: If you replace everything but the tube with other manufacturer's parts, is it still truly a Surefire flashlight? I don't mean just dropping in a Li-Ion cell...but when the light source and driver/controller isn't what Surefire put in it then how can it be?



Maybe , maybe not, it’s still a surefire host. Like maybe adding a new v8 supercharger of today’s day and age ,to an
old classic 69 mustang.....is it still a mustang ......imo yes........just an up to date better performing one, all be it subjective.


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## ven (Jul 5, 2018)

Agree Bill, it’s pretty much the 1st thing I thought. As it was not locked, I took it as an excuse to post some surefire pics ........does not take much


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jul 5, 2018)

C. Phil for the win! Reality, Humor and great photos! :thumbsup: 

~ CG


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## seery (Jul 5, 2018)

ChattanoogaPhil said:


> Are they all that expensive?
> 2017 Surefire XC1 $180 delivered.



Not if it would actually stand up to street use, but it doesn't. The XC1 has been a complete disaster for Surefire.

Your odds of getting one that works are pretty decent, the odds it stays working are very low.

It has been removed from many department approval lists, both State and Federal.


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## dealgrabber2002 (Jul 5, 2018)

I think it's a fair question to ask if he/she knew to the hobby. If you're new and you see plenty of $10-$40 lights with thousands of lumen, all of a sudden you see this "Surefire" going for hundreds with 1/2 the brightness, you want to know why.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 5, 2018)

Any comments on the drop test that was performed here around 2:50?

In addition, I went ahead and went back several pages here in the LED forum, just 6 pages to be exact, just to look for threads regarding problems with lights. Yes, this is just a tiny sample, but here is what that resulted in.

*Olight s1a trouble
Fenix TKUE18 dissapointment then joy then buring smell, third time lucky? 
Nitecore... AGAIN 
RIP Arc-aaa 
Nitecore MT1C not switching modes? 
Nitecore Tube UV LED keychain light died 
Fenix E05 head keeps popping off.
**Jetbeam RRT1 stay always on
Fenix LD 75C failures
Problems with my Mini-Maglite Pro​*
Threads regarding problems with Surefire. Zero. Nilch. Nada.

Now I'm not saying Surefire lights are immune to problems. That wouldn't be true. One can search "surefire problems" and one can see that there can and has been issues at times. But it's my experience that there are far, far more threads about problems that pop with other brands versus Surefire. I'm willing to bet if I went back further into the threads the trend above would continue. 

I'm not a Surefire fanboy. In fact there are a lot of things about the direction the company is going that I'm not a fan of. And there are other brands that I like, like Fenix, which makes a fine product for the price. But I just call things like I see them. And I see Surefire as the most reliable lights there are. You don't have to agree.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jul 5, 2018)

Burgess said:


> Why is Suefire so Expen$ive ? ? ?
> 
> 
> So they can pay their high-priced LAWYERS !
> ...


 
FIFY. 

~ CG


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## GrizzlyAdams (Jul 5, 2018)

seery said:


> It has been removed from many department approval lists, both State and Federal.



Source please.


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## MikeSalt (Jul 5, 2018)

DayofReckoning said:


> * RIP Arc-aaa*



To be fair, that is now an ancient light, so much so that the OP cannot remember how long they had it on their keys. The others are good shouts though :thumbsup:


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## KITROBASKIN (Jul 5, 2018)

Giving disrespect to Surefire is like saying someone's grandfather isn't good enough, or something like that. That's how I see it. But member DayofReckoning may not have factored in total sales with the comparison in post #42. I am guessing many more people are buying these other flashlights than the venerable SureFire. That, and the reality those other flashlight makers make product for the average consumer (for the most part) and are spending less money manufacturing their products. Plus they accept defective and failure rates higher than flashlights made for warfare and law enforcement where reliability in brutal conditions is paramount. Seems like that is the case, right?

The initial post of this thread does strike me as an understandable question from someone rather new to quality flashlights.


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## bykfixer (Jul 5, 2018)

Well it's been said "you get what you pay for". And in most cases that is true. Sometimes value comes at a cost. 

One thing nobody has hit on is the cost of manufacturing in a small facility in a high cost state like California USA vs a mega factory in a low cost country. 

Now on the flipside Maglite produces lights in that same state as SureFire but their prices are lower, by far. SureFire products in many cases are made to withstand rigorous abuse. Maglite are not. SureFire (arguably) inovates a lot more than Maglite... or at least more often. 

Some other companies spend pennies on R&D where SureFire spends lots on R&D. Some companies just clone other companies or use their parts n pieces in a different shaped body. 

There is no simple answer. But truth be told it costs a lot more to make stuff in America these days.


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## Lumen83 (Jul 5, 2018)

I'm sending them lights that are 15 years old and they're repairing them and sending them back. Some times they're for issues that I caused such as dropping them and smashing the lens. When I hear other people's bad experiences with support, I don't necessarily doubt them but I wonder why there is such a difference between my experience and theirs. All I know is that based on my own experience, in the past year Ive sent in an lx2 for a cracked lens, two Kroma's that weren't functioning properly, and I also requested new tail caps because the rubber was wearing out on a U2 and another Kroma. All of these were granted/repaired/etc. Couldn't say anything better about the company. I feel like I own great lights for a lifetime.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 5, 2018)

This thread is going very well. Good credible posts, and no CPF Rule 3 violations, except maybe the first post. Lol.

Bill


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 5, 2018)

One valuable piece of advice I can give you when dealing with Surefire Customer Service. 

DO NOT EMAIL!! CALL!!!!


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## the0dore3524 (Jul 5, 2018)

DayofReckoning said:


> One valuable piece of advice I can give you when dealing with Surefire Customer Service.
> 
> DO NOT EMAIL!! CALL!!!!



I agree very much with this. It’s annoying when you have to wait to get connected with someone but well worth it. When I emailed, I’d often wait a couple weeks for a response back.


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## MikeSalt (Jul 6, 2018)

DayofReckoning said:


> One valuable piece of advice I can give you when dealing with Surefire Customer Service.
> 
> DO NOT EMAIL!! CALL!!!!



To be fair, since Surefire and I are rarely awake at the same time, I have just used email, and the response has been quick anyway.


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## Dave D (Jul 6, 2018)

I have a G3 that was used for carrying out the check A on an aircraft and got dropped from height onto the hanger floor.

The bezel got a dink in it and the dome on the LED came loose, I'm not sure if it was during the same drop or not but the spring in the tail cap also fell out.

I contacted Surefire customer services, after receiving the advice on this forum, and they sent me a replacement metal Bezel, P60L drop-in and a new tail switch, all free of charge.

I can't imagine that there are many manufacturers out there that would replace so much of a flashlight FOC in those circumstances.

I like Surefire products and their customer service, so I'm willing to pay a bit more for that!


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 6, 2018)

MikeSalt said:


> To be fair, since Surefire and I are rarely awake at the same time, I have just used email, and the response has been quick anyway.



That's good to hear, but that's certainly the exception. My experience with their email is horrible.


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## vadimax (Jul 6, 2018)

And no one came to an idea that this new member just wanted to understand what the trick with those Surefires is. Exactly the same was with me. I even have a post with the same question somewhere in the beginning.

Now? Now I possess 5 Surefires  If someone does not get the idea that does not make him evil... I guess


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## ChattanoogaPhil (Jul 7, 2018)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> C. Phil for the win! Reality, Humor and great photos! :thumbsup:
> 
> ~ CG



haha... thanks.


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## night.hoodie (Jul 8, 2018)

ampdude said:


> MikeSalt, I find your experience with the lens odd. The temperature resistant glass lens on the E1e/E2e is VERY thick and even dropping the lens should not have had the effect you described. I've never seen one cracked and I'd also find it very odd if it came that way new out of the box.
> 
> The other two things you mentioned I can likely explain. First of all, the clicky switch. The early 1st revision Surefire Z57/Z61 was a piece of crap, to put it mildly. I'm guessing you had the first revision. I had a few of these that failed as well back in the day, and that's what lead to my preference for sticking with the original Z52/Z53/Z54 twisty. I once took a first gen Z57 apart that had failed exactly as how you described (failed in the on position, but I could use it like a twisty to twist on and off the light) and sprayed the parts with breakfree CLP or some type of gun lube, I don't remember for certain this was over ten years ago. I remember having a bunch of crap out on the table, it was a lot of parts and trying to figure out how to put it back together was annoying. When I reassembled the switch it worked fine, but I never trusted it fully after that. Around 2006 or 2007 Surefire came out with a new revision of the switch that had a self contained clicky mechanism that is night and day more reliable than the original Z57. I believe most of those had a white plastic housing. They lasted for a very short time, and the only ones I ever saw were in E2e's that were being closed out in the zippered pouch from certain retailers. Then shortly after that around 2007 they released another revision of the Z57 with the self contained clicky mechanism, but in a black plastic body surrounded by a metal colander. I'm not sure if they were using different vendors, or they just made the change in color to signify the latest revision. That is the internal clicky mechanism that Surefire put on incan E series lights until they were discontinued and both of the final revisions are very reliable.
> 
> ...



Just reading this again. Great post. Surefire tailcaps deserve their own thread. I have been thinking about... really for about three weeks now, starting a thread just for z52/z53/z54 twisty praise, opinions, benefits, drawbacks, operation methodologies and techniques, boot replacement, history... how the LF z52 differs... the double-edged sword of the popular McClicky upgrade... don't know how to begin it yet. I just am not keen on any of the z57/z61, even with a tail-standing ring. I'd rather have a z68 than z61.


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## ven (Jul 8, 2018)

Good idea mr hoodie, i would be very interested in seeing different tail caps, pro/cons for them from various members opinions etc etc:thumbsup:

I have just got my head around the z32 and z44 bit :laughing:


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## PapaLumen (Jul 8, 2018)

There's no reason. Maybe they are used to poor government negotiating resulting in the govt paying well over the odds on a large contract and it's carried over to the general public who they also supply?

Plenty of other quality manufacturers out there. They're not American though of course...


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## bykfixer (Jul 9, 2018)

Vote for a Z68 here. Hell, I like 'em so much I bought 3 when I only had 2 lights they fit.


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## night.hoodie (Jul 9, 2018)

bykfixer said:


> Vote for a Z68 here. Hell, I like 'em so much I bought 3 when I only had 2 lights they fit.



I bought 3 also. Gave one away, lost one with a light. Then I bought a light that came with one. I use both I have left every night. I have been saving to get 3 more so I can use 2 more every night and probably lose the another. They only come in TN and BK, afaik, but if they existed, I would buy 2 in NA. The Aleph TS tailcaps are nice, too. Need to get some Apeph parts. I can't afford all I want, but my desires are finite... someday, I'll have it all.


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## fivemega (Jul 10, 2018)

skstretch said:


> Why is Surefire so expensive?


*It's not expensive at all because you buy and pay once.*


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## Hogokansatsukan (Jul 10, 2018)

I won't bother to comment on SF specifically as my feelings are well documented regarding them, however I will comment on "price" of any consumer goods.

"Expensive" is very much a relative term. What might be considered "expensive" to one may be pocket change to another. It's like any adjective "good, best, quality, cheap" etc. etc. are simply the opinions of the one describing said object. I could say SF is cheap because I am used to using a Cool Fall Spy, a titanium HDS clicky, or McGizmo. If you compare SF across the entire flashlight spectrum, I would say they fall in the middle regarding cost.

Now, whether or not a persons perceived value in that product is worth the cost, is up to that individual alone. That is also where marketing plays a role. Marketing is not cheap (subjective use of the word cheap, I know), but lot's of marketing does increase costs in a product.

Flashlights are like any tool. You go from Harbor Freight on up to Snap On and others considered "high end". Timex to Rollex. Hi Point to Wilson Custom. You get the idea. Even a product that is not very good, with the right marketing, can make it seem great to many people... but that marketing costs money which the consumer ultimately pays for. 

Look at Harley Davidson. The name alone is an icon. People have it tattooed on their bodies for crying out loud. Is it the "best" motorcycle? Not in this man's opinion, but the marketing and culture have raised it to by synonymous with the image "rebel, outlaw, tough guy" much in the same way SF's marketing has raised it to nearly the same level. You can see it in many of the previous responses. Serious bikers who travel by bike on extended trips would rarely do it on a Harley... but a Honda, Yamaha, or BMW if they really wanted comfort. Though the cost of an HD is often much higher. 

Ultimately, whether or not the light is right for you, is up to you. Buy one and see if it lives up to YOUR expectations. If it does, then is the cost/benefit worth it to you. If it is, then it really isn't expensive at all. This goes with any product.


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## ven (Jul 10, 2018)

Very true is dat! 

Value along with beauty are both in the eye(and heart) of the beholder. 

I will say that most brands(surefire certainly) are more expensive for us here in the UK. Luckily with some searching we can find deals about, even importing from the states with tax can save a good amount of money over buying here. Of course issues and returning can be timely, but generally posting a typical surefire size light works out around $10-$15 from UK to USA(not bad!).


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## etc (Jul 10, 2018)

Actually I've always wondered why SOB (some other brands) are expensive.

For what you get, they are very pricey.

Check out the prices on some high end xyz brand. Frequently, they are at $200 or something for their high-end models. I don't think cheap SOBs are cheap anymore. 

I think Sf prices must be seen in that context.

Having said that, I would never buy new. SF or anything else.


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## desert.snake (Jul 10, 2018)

I had a bunch of SF, I dropped them, used them in cold and hot weather. The refusal was only 1 time, but not complete - for some reason U2 Ultra 100 lm stopped working all modes except the one weakest. Phone calling from Russia is unrealistic, they do not respond to mail messages, perhaps this is due to sanctions or with my very indistinct spelling language, but I was very helped one long-time member here, I am very grateful to him for this. I sent him a flashlight, he arranged with SF and I got a new UM2 with 600 lm! It was very unexpected. SF save tailcap from the old U2, it was also nice. I agree that we get what we pay for. I can not call them too expensive, especially if I buy from their large dealers like B&H. For example DBR Guardian,
I do not know another flashlight with a near and far beam and such convenient control. Of course, I should like a version of DBR on 4 * CR123 / 2 * 18650, I hope in the future it will appear (I still do not really trust the built-in batteries).


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## the0dore3524 (Jul 10, 2018)

Great post Hogo and great story desert.snake! Wholeheartedly agree.


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## dealgrabber2002 (Jul 10, 2018)

Anyone remember the video of Surefire sawing into a Maglite?


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## turbodog (Jul 11, 2018)

MikeSalt said:


> Interestingly, Surefire has proved to be the least reliable brand of $10+ lights I've ever owned. I had an E1e with a small imperfection in the glass, which on the first drop became a big crack. I had another incident with the E1e where the internals of the click switch just disintegrated leaving it stuck 'on' (could still turn it off by unscrewing the tail slightly). And finally a bulb in a G2 that failed before the first set of batteries had depleted. To Surefire's credit, despite dealing with an international customer, replacement parts were sent out quickly, no questions asked, including free CR123 cells for my trouble. Also, I think my experience of 2 failures out of 2 lights owned is the exception, not the rule.



They are overbuilt, but not perfect.

Had 2 U2 models with failed tailcap innards.

Had 2-3 A2 models with tailcaps that were simply too long and bottomed out before making electrical contact.

And had an L4 that simply split the emitter in half due to unregulated heat.


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## turbodog (Jul 11, 2018)

dealgrabber2002 said:


> Anyone remember the video of Surefire sawing into a Maglite?



I've seen and done that, posted pics also. It's impressive and persuasive, but not an even comparison: hard anodize versus normal anodize.


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## sween1911 (Jul 12, 2018)

Woohoo! It's been almost 11 years now... https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...-fascination&p=2191414&viewfull=1#post2191414

Seriously though, I'm still a Surefire fan for serious usage. Sure I've got Malkoff and Customlite drop-ins in my Surefires, I have a few Fenix, Thrunites and Olights, but I still love the old school Surefire stuff. 
My EDC is an unmodded Surefire L1 Gen6 all day everyday. IMHO lights today are standing on the shoulders of the giants that started the revolution: Surefire, Streamlight and Maglite back in the day.


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## peter yetman (Jul 12, 2018)

Nice one.
P


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## dealgrabber2002 (Jul 12, 2018)

recently got a Surefire L1 Gen 5 for a great price, looking for way to run it on 2AA (in the work with one member here to create a extension to run it with 2AA)


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## sween1911 (Jul 12, 2018)

There exist 2AA executive-series tubes that should work with the L1 head.


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## dealgrabber2002 (Jul 12, 2018)

sween1911 said:


> There exist 2AA executive-series tubes that should work with the L1 head.



So you know where I buy one?

Nvm, it won't work. The driver is in the body, not in the L1 head.


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## Timothybil (Jul 12, 2018)

I haven't read all the responses, so someone else may have already mentioned this. But I don't think many people think about all the money tied up in the spare parts Surefire keeps for all their lights. If I recall correctly, it has only been in the last couple years that Surefire has replaced original 6Ps, etc. with more recent versions rather than an exact replacement. That tells me that one, they carried a lot of spare parts for a long time for those lights, and two, they have finally used all of those parts up. Even at actual production costs, that is an awful lot of money tied up in inventory. Money that could have been used elsewhere in the company, and that therefor had to be made up on some other way, such as adding to the price of new products. 

Don't bother climbing all over my case about this, because I'm not going to be reading any responses. I leave with one final though. As someone else on this page stated, value is relative. To me, as just a flashaholic, most Surefire lights cost more than I am willing to pay when there are other manufacturers that that provide similar products at lower prices. But I am not putting my life on the line when I use my lights. If my life and well being depended on the light I was using, Surefire lights would not be expensive at all. It has only been in the last few years the Surefire seems to be aiming most of their products more toward the consumer market, instead of mainly the military and civil users.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 13, 2018)

On that note, I'm closing this thread.

Bill


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