# 24 Watt Oracle AC version battery test data



## BVH (Jun 23, 2009)

The latest info on AAC's website indicates replacement battery packs for the 24 Watt flashlight are 4400 mah in capacity. I assume our original AC version battery packs are supposed to be the same? The label on mine says never to charge more than 2200 mah.

I ran my light until it quit. I then made a charging pin adapter so I could charge the battery using my Schulze charger.

I'm going to make an assumption that 24 Watts are provided to the bulb. Given the typical ballast efficiency of 75% to 80%, I'm going to say that total consumption is 29 Watts or 80% efficiency.

The pack uses 3 Li Ion cells at 3.7 nominal volts each for a total nominal voltage of 11.1. Based on this, amperage draw should be in the neighborhood of 2.6 Amps. 29 Watts / 11.1 Volts = 2.6 Amps.

So I hooked up the charger, set it to charge at 1.2 AH - the rating of the 120 Volt charger wall wart and to discharge at what I thought the light actually discharges at while running - 2.5 Amps and let her go. (I could not set 2.6 Amps) Here are the results:

...........................................charge.........discharge.....run time(discharge time)

Charge/Discharge cycle #1 - 1655 mah.......1620 mah........39' 10"

Cycle #2..........................- 1720 mah.......1660 mah.........40' 25"

Cycle #3..........................- 1660 mah.......1665 mah.........38' 57"

My light always runs for between 38.5 and 39.5 minutes without fail so I believe the 2.5 Amp discharge rate is right-on.

I would say the battery's capacity is closer to 1650 mah. If the battery were, in fact, 4400 mah, the light would probably run the 110 minutes that is stated on the website.

My Shulze always charges 3-cell Li Ion packs to 12.6 to 12.66 Volts. It would not charge this pack beyond 12.53 Volts.

Despite the short run time, I really like this light. It fits my hand well, stores in my truck in its small case and puts out a tremendous amount of 4300K light for a 24 Watt'r Mag style light.


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## Patriot (Jun 24, 2009)

Very good info Bob,

I'm wondering if they've accidentally got the battery specs for the 35W light on the 24W light. It probably has a 4400mah battery pack.


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## BVH (Jun 24, 2009)

Next up, I'll charge with the supplied 120 Volt charger and then do a Schulze charger discharge to see if it yields the same capacity.


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## Richie086 (Jun 24, 2009)

We had a power failure a few days ago and the 24w is one of the flashlights I used that night. I'm still getting the same runtime as posted. Nice work Bob.

As for the 35w, I assume it was a 4000mAh, but I'm not sure. 

Hey Bob, if you want amazing light for your bicycle, the 24w is incredible. I installed a mount on my handlebars for it and blows away any high end bike light.


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## Patriot (Jun 24, 2009)

Sorry for the slightly off topic question but I'd enjoy seeing a picture of the light mounted on your bike, more specifically the mount itself. Is is custom or something that you just made work?


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## BVH (Jun 24, 2009)

Go as off topic as you want. It doesn't matter to me.

I still believe I have a defective 120 Volt charger. When plugged in and charging, the led is predominately green but with an orange flash every second. After 3 hours of charging, it had put only about 450 mah into the battery. It's marked as a "1200" ma charger so it should charge the 1650 mah battery in less than 2, 2.5 hours given charging losses.

Does anyone else's charger flash orange like mine?


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## Patriot (Jun 24, 2009)

BVH said:


> After 3 hours of charging, it had put only about 450 mah into the battery. It's marked as a "1200" ma charger....





Oh man! That's bad news. Sorry that you're having trouble especially since you're on your second light. Yeah, I realize this is most likely the charger but still.


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## BVH (Jun 24, 2009)

It's just as easy to use the Triton or Schulze and probably better for the batts anyway. I don't think the cigg adapter charger is working either! Plug it in and no led or voltage at the pin - unloaded. Will try tomorrow to see if thebattery has to be in the circuit.


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## Patriot (Jun 24, 2009)

That's a good point about the Triton charger. It's probably far better to charge the battery from that as you stated. Still, it would be nice to have a working 12V adapter for quick emergencies...you know, theoretically.


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## BVH (Jun 24, 2009)

Yes it would. And it appears to me as though there is no logic circuitry in the battery pack housing. I believe it's in the two chargers. Took apart the 12 V and there's a logic chip in there. Plus, when discharging with the Schulze, Voltage was allowed to reach 8.3 before the charger terminated the discharge. Normal low voltage cut-off pack circuitry would have kicked in at 8.7 or above.

So I just can't go out and buy any 12 Volt cigg adapter. Oh well. We'll see tomorrow.


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## Richie086 (Jun 25, 2009)

Patriot said:


> Sorry for the slightly off topic question but I'd enjoy seeing a picture of the light mounted on your bike, more specifically the mount itself. Is is custom or something that you just made work?


 

Hi Patriot,

I decided to post the photos in the CPF bicycle section. I didn't want to hijack this great thread with my off-topic post. It's titled,
*Husky 2D 4 watt Cree / Oracle 24W HID Bike Headlight.*


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## Patriot (Jun 25, 2009)

Thanks Richie, I just checked it out and posted a question there.


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## BVH (Jun 26, 2009)

Finally dropped the charging rate down to about .1C to see if I could get any more capacity. Ended up putting in 1785 - highest yet but certainly no where near 2200. 

Anyone pull the pack apart yet to see what cells are being used? I'd really like to do that but I don't want to spend $85 for a second pack. There's probably a better cap cell that would fit right in.


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## Patriot (Jun 27, 2009)

It's very likely 3 x 18650/168 cells Bob, and I'm guessing that they're going to rely on a (build in the light) protection/charging circuit of some type instead of individually protected cells.

If you end up replacing them with some nice AW 18650 2600mah cells you could do away with the protection circuit and let the cells regulate themselves. Who know's what the light's circuit is allowing. It sounds to me like it's letting the cells drop too low in voltage to begin with.


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## Patriot (Jun 27, 2009)

Another idea for even more performance would be the newest Panasonic cell. Just have a look at these specs!

http://sale.jtsgalaxy.com/ncr18650/

Even at 2-3A these things kick fanny.

On the down side they don't have a built in protection circuit but perhaps one of these could be wrapped up next to the cells somewhere:
http://search.store.yahoo.net/cgi-bin/nsearch?catalog=theshorelinemarket&query=protection%20circuit&x=0&y=0&vwcatalog=theshorelinemarket



Oh, how I would love to build up a Polarion battery pack using these new Panasonic cells! :naughty:


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## BVH (Jun 27, 2009)

Well, then, I'll just have to pick me up some of those great little cells! Trying to buy some now on Ebay. I wonder if Matts PCB will allow the initial high Amp draw without cutting out? If running Amps are around 2.3 - 2.5, I would guess the instantaneous draw might be up to 6+?


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## Richie086 (Jun 27, 2009)

If the battery mod works for you, I'll end up upgrade mine too. It'll simply require a little fancy soldering work. 40 minutes runtime is not sufficient for me. But with the great color temp on this HID flashlight, it'll be a worth while modification.


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## Patriot (Jun 27, 2009)

That's a good thought. The over current discharge protection on the 3 cell board is 6.5A so it could be close if indeed the light is pulling that much at start-up. Can you measure the load from your light?


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## BVH (Jun 27, 2009)

I'll bet we'd get between 70 and 75 minutes of run time if they fit and work.


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## Patriot (Jun 27, 2009)

I just remembered that you had stated there was some charging logic circuitry in the chargers themselves so please disregard what I had stated before about the pack having logic. I think what threw me off was the fact that when you were discharging with the Schulze you stated that it terminated at 8.3V. That said, one of three things terminated the discharge. Either it was the Schulze which I'm suspecting, individual battery protection circuits which usually shut down at 2.5V each or 7.5V for the pack (which I suspect less) or pack protection when seems least likely given that you say exists in the chargers. In any case 8.7 volts isn't all that low at 2.9V per cell. The battery junction circuit allows down to 7.2V pack or 2.4V per cell.


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## Patriot (Jun 27, 2009)

BVH said:


> I'll bet we'd get between 70 and 75 minutes of run time if they fit and work.




For sure! You'd be picking up 1200mah conservatively. How cool is that!


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## BVH (Jun 27, 2009)

I didn't realize that circuit shutdowns were down at 2.5 per cell. So now I'm not sure where the circuitry might be for the Oracle. (Although there definitely is a chip in the 12 Volt charger. And my 120 Volt has that momentary orange led flash [from normal green]). I believe the termination of discharge was the Schulze in my tests.

I'm going to open the Oracle pack once I finish discharging it. Curiosity and eagerness to see if I can make the 2900's with a PCB work have gotten the best of me.


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## BVH (Jun 27, 2009)

Well, I think I'll leave it in this state until I get the cells. I didn't snap shots of the welded tabs on both ends. What are the thoughts on soldering tabs on to these types of cells or fine wire as connectors? Will a quick solder do damage to the cells or should I find someone to weld on new tabs?

The PCB looks standard. Includes a balancing circuit. I guess they're not proud of their cells - no capacity stamp.

The pac was fairly dirty inside. Lots of particulates.


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## Patriot (Jun 27, 2009)

Hey, looky there! It has its own little board and everything. It it were me I'd would just solder them myself possible using a little bit of flux for good contact. I only say this because they're "button tops" and it's only three cells. Plus I'm an optimist. 

The prudent thing to do though we be to ask Lips how he'd handle it though. I believe he made his own 8 x 18650 pack for his Polarion. Lux Luthor would also know since he's built countless packs and owns a battery welder. 



Hey, save those those little Chinese particles and sell them on ebay.


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## BVH (Jun 27, 2009)

Did that right after I posted above.  As many packs as he's made with his nice little CD unit, I figured he'd give me a solid answer.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 28, 2009)

The general/safe guidelines are never to solder to Lithium Cobalt cells. Some here (Fallingwater) have done it, and talked about it....but the problem is you don't know the condition of the internal vent after the solder heat damage has been done. The safest thing is to have tabs welded on the cells, and solder wires to those tabs. 

Probably good to show closeups of both ends to see how they have cells oriented, joined, and connected to PCB. Let me know if you want me to do these for you. I'm working on some other similar scenarios for Lips.

If you want to take the chance on soldering, then using a real high heat (I set my Hakko 936 to 830°F/450°C) very briefly after fine sandpaper abrading surfaces and quality flux.


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## BVH (Jun 28, 2009)

Lux, I'll take you up on having them tac'd. I don't like playing around with the Li Ion cells. I want it done right. When the Panasonics arrive, I'll send 3 tested cells and the original pack with PCB to you so you can copy it. If you're ok with it, you might as well re-install the PCB, paper endcaps and shrinkwrap it. THANK YOU!

(To anyone interested, I somehow ended up buying 20 cells when I intended to buy 10. They are brand new Panasonic NCR 18650 - 2900 mah. I'll be posting a sale thread over in Marketplace.)





















Here's something you don't hear about everyday. My sister was bitten on the top of her foot (wearing sandals) by a Rattle Snake yesterday at the Northbound rest stop on the 101 at Gaviota Beach. She was exercising the dogs in the pet area when she felt a stabbing pain and heard a hissing sound. She got to the Solvang Hospital in about 45 minutes where they administered the anti-venom. Her entire leg and foot swelled up, she experienced numbness and tingling in many places, had some nausea, extreme fatigue and her leg and foot hurt like heck. She seems to be about the same today. Hopefully, no permanent damage.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 28, 2009)

That looks pretty straight forward. I'm sure they soldered to that nickle strip first, then contact welded to batteries. I have both sizes of that nickel contact stripping.

WOW, that is amazing with your sister. What a freak event....must have scared the eeebie jeeebies out of her. Sounds like she will do fine after getting the antivenom and likely other meds.


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## Richie086 (Jun 28, 2009)

BVH said:


> (To anyone interested, I somehow ended up buying 20 cells when I intended to buy 10. They are brand new Panasonic NCR 18650 - 2900 mah. I'll be posting a sale thread over in Marketplace.)


 

Hey Bob,

I'm sure numerous members would be interested in purchasing the spare cells you have, especially myself. But I think we're all going to have an issue with soldering the tabs together. Any suggestions for the rest of us? Would Lux be interested in laying the ground work on the extra cells (for a modest charge of course) Then they can be shipped to the buyers. 

If something can be arranged, I'd like to get on your list once you post in the Marketplace.

I also hope your sister makes a fully recovery.


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## BVH (Jun 28, 2009)

I am just going offer them as bare cells for any type of project.


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## Patriot (Jun 28, 2009)

Nice pictures Bob. So nice of Lux to help out since he has so much knowledge in this area. You're going to have one heck of a nice power supply for that little light! I'm going to check out your battery sale now. 


Man, I'm really sorry to hear about your sister getting tagged like that. That's big Speckled rattlesnake country and often responsible for many bites. We don't have as many of them out here but have a lot of Western Diamondbacks and Mohaves. I'm continuously mindful where I step and place my hands since I work and play outdoors and never go anywhere with open foot ware. Not something your sister would have thought of just being on the road and stopping for a quick break. That's terribly unlucky and I'm guessing it happened in the morning by a young snake since she didn't hear a rattle.:shakehead I sure hope she improves quickly but as I understand it the first 2-3 days after are very painful. Please keep us updated.


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## BVH (Jun 29, 2009)

Richie, does your 120 Volt charger for the 24 Watt flash orange momentarily when charging? Mine is predominantly green with a once-per-second orange flash. After 3 hours of charging a completely depleted pack, I put it on the Schulze for a discharge test and got only 450 mah out of it for a charge rate of only 150 ma.


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## Richie086 (Jun 29, 2009)

BVH said:


> Richie, does your 120 Volt charger for the 24 Watt flash orange momentarily when charging? Mine is predominantly green with a once-per-second orange flash. After 3 hours of charging a completely depleted pack, I put it on the Schulze for a discharge test and got only 450 mah out of it for a charge rate of only 150 ma.


 

Hi there Bob,

When the charger is initially plugged into the wall and before connecting to the battery, the green light turns on after about 1 second and remains lit whether connected to the battery or not. 

When the battery is connected the green light will immediately turn "RED" if the static voltage of the battery is below about 12.30 volts. Above that voltage, the charger turns green but will continoue to charge the battery until it reaches about 12.55 - 12.6 volts and seems to keep it there. I've never experienced the flashing orange condition with any of my chargers for the two 24 watts I own or 35 watt Oracle.

If you want to see if it's your charger, I can lend you one of mine for a few days. If you want to do that, just PM me your address and I'll get it in the mail to you in the morning.


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## BVH (Jun 30, 2009)

Richie, thanks for the offer. I will simply use my Schulze. Its just as easy since the battery has to come out anyway and I can charge it faster. I just got two bum chargers, both the 120 V and the 12 V. How's that for winning the lotto!


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## Richie086 (Jun 30, 2009)

BVH said:


> I just got two bum chargers, both the 120 V and the 12 V. How's that for winning the lotto!


 

Wow, hard to believe both are bad. I'd still contact the retailer and have them replaced.


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## jasonck08 (Jul 1, 2009)

I just wanted to report that due to the curiosity inspired by this thread, I went ahead and did a test on my Tactical HID 24W.
 
I fully charged it up to about 12.6v using the stock charger, and then discharged it to 9.3v. Maybe could have gone a little lower, but its not goot to take li-ions to under 3v per cell.
 
Anyways, my battery pack took a 1950 mah discharge till it was at 9.3v. The discharge was done at about 1 amp because that’s all my charger / discharger unit will do.


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## BVH (Jul 1, 2009)

That sounds about right to me. My tests were at about 2.5 give or take so it would be normal to get less capacity. The light runs at about 2.3 to 2.5 Amps.


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## BVH (Jul 4, 2009)

Well most all of my test data in this thread was for not. I drained my pack in anticipation of taking it apart for new cells. I ran the light until it flickered off. It's been sitting because I don't have the new cells yet. I decided to see if I could use my discharger to get more juice out. Well static voltage was up at 10.7x. Hooked up the discharger and began pulling out mah at a rate of 1 Amp. I pulled out 30 mah and then decided to discharge at a much lower rate to get more out. I adjusted the machine to 200 ma draw and engaged it. I also decided to measure each cell during discharge. Got a bit of a surprise when 2 cells measured around 10.5 and the 3rd cell measured 2.75. No wonder I was getting only 32 33 minutes of run time. Protection was kicking in for the one cell and therefore shutting off the light so the others were not anywhere near being used up.

You can bet that I'm going to do a few charge/discharge cycles on the new 2900 mah Panasonics and then do my best to pick matching cells.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 4, 2009)

I thought that was a balancing PCB, in which case that shouldn't happen.


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## Patriot (Jul 5, 2009)

So much for balancing! 

I'd be hard pressed to believe this light doesn't have a balancing circuit designed in, so I'm going to guess it's just broken on your light Bob. :thumbsdow

Any further thoughts of your own?


btw, you shouldn't have to use "perfectly" matched cells in order to get overall great performance, as long as you have a proper balancing circuit. I know that you're a bit of a perfectionist though and you'll certainly squeak out some advantage buy matching. I just don't think it will be much. You're going to replace the PCB anyway correct?


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## BVH (Jul 5, 2009)

At this point, I'm going to buy one of Matt PCBs to use in the new pack. I'm no electronics expert but why have wires connected at the 3 different Voltage points of the pack if it's not for balancing - unless it's just for individual cell over charge and LVC - which I guess is a good possibility. I just jumped to the conclusion that it was for balancing. There is the possibility that the one cell is not performing correctly? Once I take the pack apart, I will do some cell comparisons.

Whoops....Matt's PCB says nothing about balancing. More research.

Well, BatteryStation has only one with balancing but it's 3.5" long with their integrated "fuel guage" so it will not work.

Lux, did you use PCBs, either balancing or non-balancing when you were building all your packs?


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## Patriot (Jul 5, 2009)

I found this without a plug for fuel gauge but I suspect it's still too large?

http://cgi.ebay.com/PCM-11.1v-10A-L...ItemQQimsxq20090610?IMSfp=TL090610144003r3794


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## BVH (Jul 5, 2009)

Paul, yep it's got the same board and measurements I found on BatteryStation site. The max L can be only as long as the cell. 2 1/2" and width could be 1 1/8". No balancing obviously makes matching the cells more important for the new pack.


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