# Ft. Hood Shootings



## SFG2Lman (Nov 5, 2009)

I am currently stationed at Ft. Hood, and the whole post is on lockdown, Apparently somewhere between 1-3 gunmen have killed at least 7 and wounded at least 12. Please pray for no more deaths and the families of those that have been killed. I found it hard to believe... but here is a link to NBC and no I don't know anything more than whats on the news...I don't have a TV so I am just sitting tight in my room. Last I heard the incidents are on the other side of post some 5-10 miles away.


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## Chuck289 (Nov 5, 2009)

This is really horrible news. :shakehead

My friend is an MP and just left Hood days ago to be transferred to Ft Knox.


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## Vinniec5 (Nov 5, 2009)

This is as of 4:12pm your time, 1 suspect dead 2 in custody. 12 reported killed 30 wounded. 1 of the killed was a civilian contracted police officer. from Fox News. I wish the news was better. glad you are ok


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## Mjolnir (Nov 5, 2009)

Wow, this is truly horrible.

The numbers are apparently now at 12 fatalities and 31 wounded. It seems unclear if all of the shooters have been captured yet, or what their motive is/was.

Try to stay safe; thankfully it doesn't seem as if you are in immediate danger.


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## RAGE CAGE (Nov 5, 2009)

SFG2Lman said:


> I am currently stationed at Ft. Hood, and the whole post is on lockdown, Apparently somewhere between 1-3 gunmen have killed at least 7 and wounded at least 12. Please pray for no more deaths and the families of those that have been killed. I found it hard to believe... but here is a link to NBC and no I don't know anything more than whats on the news...I don't have a TV so I am just sitting tight in my room. Last I heard the incidents are on the other side of post some 5-10 miles away.


 
wow- the base is on lockdown- multiple suspects.12 dead- 31 wounded...the news says armed with m16's- not m-4's- older stuff given to base security personell/trainees and MP's- or is the media just ignorent as usual? They keep showing the Warrior Combat Stress Reset Program sign......be safe.

*edit*...CNN changed again 
"The slain gunman was identified as Maj. Malik Nadal Hasan, according to a law enforcement source. The source believes he is 39 or 40 years old.
The primary shooter had two weapons, both handguns, he said. "


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## Lightraven (Nov 5, 2009)

RAGE CAGE said:


> wow- the base is on lockdown- multiple suspects.12 dead- 31 wounded...the news says armed with m16's- not m-4's- older stuff given to base security personell/trainees and MP's- or is the media just ignorent as usual? They keep showing the Warrior Combat Stress Reset Program sign......be safe.
> 
> *edit*...CNN changed again
> "The slain gunman was identified as Maj. Malik Nadal Hasan, according to a law enforcement source. The source believes he is 39 or 40 years old.
> The primary shooter had two weapons, both handguns, he said. "



Some surprises in these early reports (a major?), some details are no surprise at all. The heavy casualties are characteristic of a high powered rifle. The Army has some soul searching to do about officer selection (about which I have experience) after this.


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## Vinniec5 (Nov 5, 2009)

RAGE CAGE said:


> wow- the base is on lockdown- multiple suspects.12 dead- 31 wounded...the news says armed with m16's- not m-4's- older stuff given to base security personell/trainees and MP's- or is the media just ignorent as usual? They keep showing the Warrior Combat Stress Reset Program sign......be safe.
> 
> *edit*...CNN changed again
> "The slain gunman was identified as Maj. Malik Nadal Hasan, according to a law enforcement source. The source believes he is 39 or 40 years old.
> The primary shooter had two weapons, both handguns, he said. "


 
I was watching Rick Sanchez on CNN wet his pants over saying M-16 over and over to Barbara Starr untill she got annoyed(rightly so) and interrupting her. If i was standing next to him with mine I would be hard pressed not to Butt-stroke him a cpl times with it srry he just gets under my skin with that childish anti-gun phony BS like he's happy they used them. I would have loved to hear what Barbara Starr said off camera, you could see she was not amused.


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 5, 2009)

the building they are claiming is a large open area with anywhere from 200-800 soldiers being processed through it daily...i went through it a few weeks ago....


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## Roger Sully (Nov 5, 2009)

Glad you're safe SFG2Lman. This is truly sad when you're in a place That is supposed to be "safe" and this happens.

A Prayer for all of the families and loved ones for those who fell..


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 5, 2009)

WOW! A Major psychiatrist did the shootings with handguns? Have to wait to get the whole story, and if it was more than him, and motivations.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/11/army_shooting_hood_110509/



> An Army psychiatrist was identified Thursday as one of the gunmen in a shooting rampage on Fort Hood, Texas, that left at least 12 people dead and up to 31 wounded.
> 
> 
> One soldier, a suspect, was killed and two soldiers were taken into custody, according to base spokesman Lt. Gen. Bob Cone, who added that the three suspects were soldiers.
> ...


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## RAGE CAGE (Nov 5, 2009)

whoa...he was an army psychiatrist who used to be stationed at Walter Reed in in DC? Who is going to want to see the company head shrinker now? Bad news......what is the standard issue sidearm for officers now- Berretta M9 92F model 9mm? This whole thing blows.....


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## nitesky (Nov 5, 2009)

Glad you are safe SFG2Lman. You are all in our thoughts tonight.


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## StarHalo (Nov 5, 2009)

From the radio source: Major Hasan was fervently anti-war and didn't even want to participate in shooting range drills. He was due for deployment and was very anxious about having to serve in battle.


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 5, 2009)

what kind of anti-war guy shoots a bunch of soldiers? someone whos lying his *** off...no antiwar person turns into a mass murderer like that


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## StarHalo (Nov 5, 2009)

Radio source update: Hasan complained that he was being harassed by fellow soldiers because of his ethnicity (despite being born and raised in the US by an upper-middle class family.)


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 5, 2009)

lower enlisted soldiers don't have the balls to antagonize a major unless they are REALLY comfortable with each other which would make it in jest anyway, and If where they say it went down is right, he was the ranking person, he shot people that he outranked almost undoubtedly...not to mention, the army really doesn't put up with that any more, you look sideways at someone, you can be brought up on harrassment charges...something isn't adding up, hes been in for at least a couple years (people with a doctorate can come in as a captain)....something just doesn't add up yet


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## Patriot (Nov 5, 2009)

SFG2Lman said:


> what kind of anti-war guy shoots a bunch of soldiers? someone whos lying his *** off...no antiwar person turns into a mass murderer like that





There's no actual rationality behind the motives of someone with loose screws. They're just mad. sort of like this maniac down in my neck of the woods. 


Today's story is a sad shame and really disgusts me. Too bad they weren't able to take him out sooner. I'm not sure of the time frame from start to finish but this doesn't speak well of base security either.


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## StarHalo (Nov 5, 2009)

More update: Hasan began his mental heath career at Walter Reed Hospital, where he was given a poor rating. Over the last six months, he had gotten the attention of federal authorities because of "odd internet posts". He had made every effort to avoid deployment, working his way through the ranks and attempting every alternative.

The two other persons arrested earlier in the day have been released; one person not mentioned in the original events has been arrested.

Something not yet addressed is how one man with two handguns can take down 40+ people - it was mentioned that if security had not acted as quickly as they did, a lot more people would have been injured; this would seem to indicate that Hasan was either armed better than we know, or had an unusual amount of ammunition..


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## Linger (Nov 5, 2009)

Tragic. It is near impossible to say; 'He was one of us, and it is horrible.' People will draw any line they can to distance themselves, to say"that was an other, "


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 5, 2009)

well as a trusted officer in the united states army, its kind of hard to not let him on post without any suspicion of weird activities. He was approved for access, this has nothing to do with base security, and everything to do with not trusting lunatics


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## dudemar (Nov 5, 2009)

This is just tragic...


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## StarHalo (Nov 5, 2009)

Still updating: One of the "odd internet posts" was a blog post outlining Hasan's belief that a suicide bomber is essentially the same thing as a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers. 

Coworkers have noted that Hasan was a harsh critic of the Middle Eastern conflict, and that he felt that Muslims had a right to stand up to the "aggressors" (the US).

Other officers who were present with Hasan during news coverage of the Little Rock recruiting office shooting in June noted that Hasan seemed very content with the attack, and that Hasan openly wondered that if similar events were to occur more often if it would cause the US to pull out of the Middle East.


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## bf1 (Nov 5, 2009)

It is certainly a shame that we live in a country where we cannot protect our own; especially the young men and women that have given so much to our country.
What a sad state of affairs.


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## carbine15 (Nov 5, 2009)

bf1 said:


> It is certainly a shame that we live in a country where we cannot protect our own...


Or allow them to protect themselves and each other. 

I've been through that processing center. They should allow the soldiers who work there to carry firearms. In fact, every soldier on post should be _required_ to be armed at all times. This Asshole would have been limited to one or two before being gunned down much much sooner. If we don't trust our own soldiers with guns and ammo, who do we trust?

Yes, I know for a fact that nobody but MP's and civilian contractor guards have any weapons on post. That is except for homicidal maniacs. Homicidal maniacs can carry whatever they want whenever they want cause they don't follow rules and laws.


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## HarryN (Nov 5, 2009)

I have no military experience, but I always assumed that all soldiers would be armed on a base - sort of like police officers. I guess not.


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## bf1 (Nov 5, 2009)

carbine15 said:


> Or allow them to protect themselves and each other.
> 
> I've been through that processing center. They should allow the soldiers who work there to carry firearms. In fact, every soldier on post should be _required_ to be armed at all times. This Asshole would have been limited to one or two before being gunned down much much sooner. If we don't trust our own soldiers with guns and ammo, who do we trust?
> 
> Yes, I know for a fact that nobody but MP's and civilian contractor guards have any weapons on post. That is except for homicidal maniacs. Homicidal maniacs can carry whatever they want whenever they want cause they don't follow rules and laws.



I agree with you totally.


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## carbine15 (Nov 5, 2009)

I know that most people assume that soldiers are armed. The truth is that military bases are among the tightest gun-controlled areas in the US. Individual enlisted soldiers are never trusted with real ammo unless they are at the firing range (though they are given empty rifles all the time to march around with). We used to do perimeter patrols with empty rifles all the time. I hated it. I felt powerless and completely useless out there. If poop went down all I could do was yell. 

Even in Kuwait we were only given 30 rounds of 5.56 for our defensive position. That's 30 rounds for 150 enlisted men to share. The officers had a full combat load each. The position had over 400 rounds of 9mm ammo for the officers Berettas. I'm still bitter at their lack of trust in us. Probably one of the main reasons I got out instead of re-enlisting.


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## Kevin1322 (Nov 5, 2009)

carbine15 said:


> Or allow them to protect themselves and each other.
> 
> I've been through that processing center. They should allow the soldiers who work there to carry firearms. In fact, every soldier on post should be _required_ to be armed at all times. This Asshole would have been limited to one or two before being gunned down much much sooner. If we don't trust our own soldiers with guns and ammo, who do we trust?
> 
> Yes, I know for a fact that nobody but MP's and civilian contractor guards have any weapons on post. That is except for homicidal maniacs. Homicidal maniacs can carry whatever they want whenever they want cause they don't follow rules and laws.


 
I don't agree, and I have also been through that center. I've been in the Army for 19 years. Some of these kids coming out of basic and other training know how to kill, but not how to deal with it. They are also not trained for these type of events like the Military Police, Police, and SWAT are. Many of them (not all) you wouldn't want to just react to an armed person in a crowd of people. Not to mention the hot heads, and oh, by the way, most soldiers like to drink on their off time too. I think that there could be better and more secure measures taken, but arming everyone with a loaded weapon IS NOT the answer.


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## StarHalo (Nov 5, 2009)

*Maj. Hasan is alive* and in stable condition with several gunshot wounds, currently held in a hospital facility.

The first responder who shot Maj. Hasan, a female security officer of some kind, is also alive and in stable condition with several gunshot wounds.


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## DonShock (Nov 5, 2009)

Kevin1322 said:


> ....., but arming everyone with a loaded weapon IS NOT the answer.


Maybe not everyone, but increasing the number of RESPONSIBLE armed individuals will help minimize the body count when these type of incidents occur. Almost every one of these ends as soon as the shooter encounters armed resistance. Even if the armed defender doesn't kill the shooter, once the bad guy realizes he's not facing just helpless victims they often take their own lives. You may never be able to stop the initial violence, but armed resistance by law abiding citizens who are already on scene will definitely minimize the carnage that currently occurs while waiting for law enforcement to respond.


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 5, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> Still updating: One of the "odd internet posts" was a blog post outlining Hasan's belief that a suicide bomber is essentially the same thing as a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers.
> 
> Coworkers have noted that Hasan was a harsh critic of the Middle Eastern conflict, and that he felt that Muslims had a right to stand up to the "aggressors" (the US).
> 
> Other officers who were present with Hasan during news coverage of the Little Rock recruiting office shooting in June noted that Hasan seemed very content with the attack, and that Hasan openly wondered that if similar events were to occur more often if it would cause the US to pull out of the Middle East.



Can You post some links to your sources for these updates. It is startling to think that he as an Army officer is, or rather was, in effect, an enemy sympathizer. If so, then that would make these killings a terror attack. No offense intended here, on my part, just want the facts.

Bill


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## Kevin1322 (Nov 5, 2009)

DonShock said:


> Maybe not everyone, but increasing the number of RESPONSIBLE armed individuals will help minimize the body count when these type of incidents occur. Almost every one of these ends as soon as the shooter encounters armed resistance. Even if the armed defender doesn't kill the shooter, once the bad guy realizes he's not facing just helpless victims they often take their own lives. You may never be able to stop the initial violence, but armed resistance by law abiding citizens who are already on scene will definitely minimize the carnage that currently occurs while waiting for law enforcement to respond.


 
...and that I totally agree with. I'm all for killing bad guys...just not the good ones in the process.:twothumbs


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## StarHalo (Nov 5, 2009)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Can You post some links to your sources for these updates.



Most of the sympathetic viewpoints were brought up in an interview with a fellow officer on Fox news. Hasan's blog posts are now being distributed by the AP. This is what makes radio news great, they cull all sources in near realtime; if you'd like to listen to the broadcast I'm listening to, it's live at KFI640.com - at 7PM PST (15 mins from now) a military vet will begin his coverage and commentary.


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## fisk-king (Nov 5, 2009)

my prayers to the families of the victims of this tragic event


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## StarHalo (Nov 5, 2009)

One of the soldiers who was ferrying the wounded on the scene stated that several of the injured retold the same detail - that the gunman was shouting "something in arabic" while firing into the group.


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 5, 2009)

one of the soldiers in my unit was hit, he was actually out of the hospital after they removed a .22 slug from his shoulder, he was walking and talking fine, a little percoceted, but he says it was too fast for him to remember much, just people running and falling, like shooting fish in a barrel (the actual building it took placed in is a small confined medical facility with lots of cubicles) at least one of his handguns was a .22 with an extended mag. 

This soldier has been deployed a few times, been shot at a few times, never hit, but always considered america a "safe zone" now that that is taken from him...seems like the perfect terrorist attack if you ask me. He is ok and released though and I thank God for that.


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## Linger (Nov 6, 2009)

DonShock said:


> law abiding citizens


Isn't this everyone until they break the law? Who has a the ability to foretell what lies buried in the minds of men?
If someone had stopped him before he got his guns the maximum number of lives would have been spared.
Another poster wrote military bases among the tightest controlled - yes, and with the fewest incidence of gun violence for that very reason. If he was not allowed to be armed on base... maybe that's the first question: was he permitted to carry two pistols with extended mags?


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## StarHalo (Nov 6, 2009)

Linger said:


> If someone had stopped him before he got his guns the maximum number of lives would have been spared.



Those officers who have produced previous quotes and concerns about Hasan may be facing very serious charges for not reporting what they heard.



Linger said:


> was he permitted to carry two pistols with extended mags?



You're allowed to take weapons onto the base as long as you declare them at the gate (Ft Hood is said to have excellent bird hunting), but no intensive search or interrogation is performed otherwise. You produce your ID and drive through, that's about it.


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 6, 2009)

he absolutely was not permitted


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## DonShock (Nov 6, 2009)

Linger said:


> DonShock said:
> 
> 
> > law abiding citizens
> ...


Yes, everyone is law abiding until they break the law and as such should be allowed to be armed. It's impossible to predict the future, or what's in somebody's mind. So it's impossible to completely prevent such attacks nor to predict when and where they will occur. It's likewise impossible to prevent those intent on doing evil from obtaining weapons. Evil men will do evil acts. The question is, what are the good people going to do when it happens? I believe there are more good people than bad and that when the good guys have guns they can protect themselves and others from the bad apples in society. Usually, in the case of thefts and other "minor" crimes, the good guy often doesn't even need to use his weapon to stop the commission of the crime. Most criminals fear a victim who can defend himself. In horrendous crimes like Ft Hood, the ability to defend yourself can make the difference between life and death. And as this and other similar crimes show, even when the criminal has no other goal than to kill as many people as possible, once they are confronted with an equally well armed defender the killing of the innocents comes to an end.


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## sygyzy (Nov 6, 2009)

Lots of borderline racism here. Why am I not surprised? This was a terrible event done by an evil person. That's all there is to it.

If you are going to report facts, report it. Don't put your spin on it. To say the major claimed he was harassed because of his ethnicity, despite being raised in an upper class family in the United States means nothing. You mean to say bigots only attack poor Middle Easterners? Or, similarly, you are spared from harassment if you are a rich Arab?

Fort Hood is the HQ for the the military program to ease PTSD, stress, whatever you want to call it that's causing soldiers to become incredibly depressed and sometimes kill themselves. It's ironic that this happened there and the aggressor is a psychiatrist that is supposed to help soldiers deal with this stress. And it's his own stress that probably set it off.

I don't buy that he is a terrorist or planned for this to be his end game. I don't know how long it takes to become a major but if he hated the military so much, why would he purposely enlist and rise the ranks?


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## 270winchester (Nov 6, 2009)

oops.


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## DonShock (Nov 6, 2009)

Wouldn't the shooter have had to gone to combat before he got PTSD? There's been nothing mentioned, unless you assume all soldiers have it, to suggest he suffers from PTSD. Just the opposite, the reports were that he was fighting to avoid serving overseas.

And although it's still to soon to verify their authenticity, the news reports are quoting his own blog posts and his statements to fellow officers as the basis for suggesting his motivation was his anti-war sentiments. Actually, based on the reported statements, he wasn't so much anti-war, it was more like he was rooting for the enemy and supporting their attacks on our troops. But that has nothing to do with his race, it is solely based on his reported statements.

As far as I have seen in both the local (I live in the Ft Hood area) and national news reports, his race was never mentioned. He does have a middle eastern sounding name, but he was reported to be a muslim convert and most take such names when they convert so that tells you nothing about his race. Personally, I'm not sure of his race. The B/W photos I've seen are pretty generic. He could be white, light skinned black, hispanic, middle eastern, or some other one I haven't thought of or mentioned. The criticism isn't due to his race, it's due to his words and his deeds.


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 6, 2009)

It is too early to make any useful conclusions about motivation. 

This could be the first presentation of a mental illness--even a psychotic break. I'm reminded of the Virginia Tech, or Columbine scenarios.

His parents reportedly grew up in Jordan and immigrated to the USA, but that should not mean anything nefarious. 

There will be more information and time for people to learn what this was all about. Now is a time to grieve and support those who serve the country.


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## StarHalo (Nov 6, 2009)

sygyzy said:


> To say the major claimed he was harassed because of his ethnicity, despite being raised in an upper class family in the United States means nothing. You mean to say bigots only attack poor Middle Easterners? Or, similarly, you are spared from harassment if you are a rich Arab?



The comment about his parents/upbriging was to highlight that the Major was 100% native, and had no indication of foreign origin about him aside from his appearance, yet was still "harassed" for not being similar. (Further updates indicate that Hasan's harassment consisted of frequently overhearing the various slang terms used by soldiers for Middle Easterners which personally offended him.)



sygyzy said:


> I don't know how long it takes to become a major but if he hated the military so much, why would he purposely enlist and rise the ranks?



The military gave him the scholarship to go into the mental health field; his time spent at Walter Reed was completely covered by the government. What is remarkable is the amount of time he's been in the military without actually having served - he has never been deployed in over six years. Veteran commentators have noted that this might be some kind of record.



LuxLuthor said:


> I'm reminded of the Virginia Tech, or Columbine scenarios.



Hasan graduated from Virginia Tech.


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## Lightraven (Nov 6, 2009)

Becoming a major doesn't take very long if you are commissioned as a captain, the next lower rank. This is what doctors and lawyers are commissioned as, without any military training at all, as far as I understand.

Here's how it works: You are in med school and need some cash to pay for it, so you talk to the military. They offer to pay your bills if you serve as an Army doctor for some number of years. Once you complete med school and become a doctor, you are instantly commissioned as a captain and begin serving on a base or ship. These officers have no command authority, beyond what any doctor has. They are basically specialists. They are not expected to fight, but to do their jobs. And frankly, Iraq is only dangerous for a small subset of troops anyway, these days. An Army psychiatrist would probably have nothing to worry about.


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## RAGE CAGE (Nov 6, 2009)

Kevin1322 said:


> I don't agree, and I have also been through that center. I've been in the Army for 19 years. Some of these kids coming out of basic and other training know how to kill, but not how to deal with it. They are also not trained for these type of events like the Military Police, Police, and SWAT are. Many of them (not all) you wouldn't want to just react to an armed person in a crowd of people. Not to mention the hot heads, and oh, by the way, most soldiers like to drink on their off time too. I think that there could be better and more secure measures taken, but arming everyone with a loaded weapon IS NOT the answer.


 
You sound like an experienced operator....fire control discipline to limit collateral damage. SFG2Lman, who indicates he was on post at the time is also right- something doesn't add up with this whole story. The fact that he was counseling (listening) to all kinds of horror stories likely was a contributing factor- but he SHOULD have sought help- unless it was a complete psychotic break......(more likely). Was he wearing body armor?
Who knows what his state of mind would have been.......when the dust settles, we may or may not know the true casualty count of the crossfire, the shooter etc. Remember the Pat Tillman situation.....takes time for the truth to come out.


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## will (Nov 6, 2009)

Lightraven said:


> Becoming a major doesn't take very long if you are commissioned as a captain, the next lower rank. This is what doctors and lawyers are commissioned as, .



This is correct. he still owed some time for the time the army footed his medical education costs. Walter Reed was his training, internship, and his fellowship. He only left Walter Reed in July.

This was a planned attack. What his reasons were is up for discussion.


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## Empath (Nov 6, 2009)

Russ, without any commentary on whether your opinion is or isn't accurate, I still have to say your choice to inject the controversy should have been done in the Underground. Your comments have been removed. It's not Cafe material.


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## Linger (Nov 6, 2009)

Thanx


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## StarHalo (Nov 6, 2009)

RAGE CAGE said:


> - something doesn't add up with this whole story.
> 
> - but he SHOULD have sought help-



What doesn't add up is the PTSD angle; it's *post traumatic* stress disorder - in order to have it, something traumatic has to have occured. Dodging service to avoid being a part of what creates trauma is the opposite of having it. Hasan came from a good family that was well off, got his career path fully paid for without ever repaying/recompensing in any form, and had a "military experience" that never went beyond the bounds of a well-appointed hospital or military base. His "stress" centered around having to do the service required of him for the government-provided free ride, something every other person in similar circumstances/military service has done without killing all their coworkers. He was seeking help for his problem, by asking his facility colleagues to gin up some medical disorder that could be noted on his record so he could avoid deployment.



RAGE CAGE said:


> unless it was a complete psychotic break......(more likely).





will said:


> This was a planned attack.



It can only be one or the other, you can't plan to go insane.. A quick glance at the timeline makes the answer pretty clear; he begins identifying with anti-US extremist sentiment more and more over the preceding months, enough to voice it openly in front of other officers and post publicly on the internet about it. He acquires his own firearms (he's anti-war yet owns semi-automatic weapons?) and then deliberately goes through the necessary motions to bring them onto the base. He goes to a part of the base that's having an event that day that guarantees a high density crowd, plus some of the colleagues that declined to add notes to his record will be there as well..

I fully understand the careful and almost hands-off handling of the subject due to the sensitive nature of the religious and cultural aspects involved, but you do a disservice to all involved when you try to go around the objective core event and seek alternate or secondary reasons for what has happened. Once you're firing into a group of people while shouting Arabic phrases, it is a *terrorist attack*.


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## McGizmo (Nov 6, 2009)

It may be informative to see what truths and information come out about this and whether they will be given any spin; not that it would necessarily be recognizable as such.

Regardless, it is a tragedy. It would seem that this guy failed at the core of his humanity and took lives as a result. I can't imagine what it would be like to counsel soldiers suffering from their experience in battle. Depending on this guys levels of sympathy and empathy, the toll may have been more than he could handle. He may well have felt that some of the military actions being taken were wrong and with the upcoming proposition of being deployed he may have found himself at an impasse. From some of the comments I have read, it sounds like he wanted "out".

It sounds like this guy had obligations that he couldn't handle and snapped. Is it a coincidence that his field of study was the human mind and his apparently failed in reason? I would guess he reached some internal tipping point with a catastrophe resulting.

Just yesterday eve, I opted to put myself in harms way to come to the aid of a man who was clinging to a buoy because he couldn't handle the strong rip current that had swept him out to it. I borrowed a boogie board from a family on the beach because I knew I didn't want to deprive this man from flotation should I fail in my attempt to get him back to shore. I swam out to him with a reasonable idea of my own abilities as well as an idea of what I would be facing. As it turned out, the task was greater than I expected and with about a third of the way still to go, I requested additional horsepower from shore and another swimmer came to my aid and the two of us were then able to make it the rest of the way in. Could I have handled the "rescue" without the added help? Probably, but I was smart enough to know the right move was to ask for more help. With the best of intentions, one can get in over their head. Could that have been what happened here with this guy?

Is it possible that this guy was aiding others who were drowning and ultimately he drowned himself? In hindsight did he seek help that went unanswered? Probably some of you guys can and would pull a trigger simply on instinct. It seems that this guy pulled the trigger countless times as a result of some mental process and decision. What could possibly have been going on in his mind?!? Will we ever know or be privy to any answers?

If anything, I hope some insight and understanding can result from this tragedy. I did read that some of the injuries suffered may have come from friendly fire. That is not trivial and certainly a factor in consideration of who should be armed and who shouldn't, I would imagine.

To be very clear here, I am not trying to defend this man but I do hope those who need to understand what happened can come to an understanding of why he did what he did and how this might be avoided. Capital punishment aside, I am glad that this man is still alive at present and I hope he can provide insight to those who will question him.

Why?


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 6, 2009)

McGizmo, excellent post.

There are more tidbits coming out if you watch the news, but he was basically a loner type which could mean a lot of things in terms of his own mental illness. A psychotic stress-induced episode could have started earlier in the day and evolved into taking those actions.

Paranoid schizophrenics with a psychotic episode can get messages telling them what to do that is not under their own control.

No excuses for what he did, only that it makes sense to get a better picture. Apparently he is in a coma. His parents have absolutely condemned what he did, and that he was not raised in a way that would predict this.


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## Patriot (Nov 6, 2009)

carbine15 said:


> Or allow them to protect themselves and each other.
> 
> I've been through that processing center. They should allow the soldiers who work there to carry firearms. In fact, every soldier on post should be _required_ to be armed at all times. This Asshole would have been limited to one or two before being gunned down much much sooner. If we don't trust our own soldiers with guns and ammo, who do we trust?
> 
> Yes, I know for a fact that nobody but MP's and civilian contractor guards have any weapons on post. That is except for homicidal maniacs. Homicidal maniacs can carry whatever they want whenever they want cause they don't follow rules and laws.




Precisely. 

Thanks for this post *Carbine*.






> *Carbine
> *Even in Kuwait we were only given 30 rounds of 5.56 for our defensive position. That's 30 rounds for 150 enlisted men to share. The officers had a full combat load each. The position had over 400 rounds of 9mm ammo for the officers Berettas. I'm still bitter at their lack of trust in us. Probably one of the main reasons I got out instead of re-enlisting.



Pure insanity and for what purpose.....


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## tygger (Nov 6, 2009)

Just read he may have been taking anti-malaria drug Lariam for his deployment to afghanistan? Don't know if thats confirmed or not. Here's something from rxlist.com website: :shrug:




> Occasionally, more severe neuropsychiatric disorders have been reported such as: sensory and motor neuropathies (including paresthesia, tremor and ataxia), convulsions, agitation or restlessness, anxiety, depression, mood changes, panic attacks, forgetfulness, confusion, hallucinations, aggression, psychotic or paranoid reactions and encephalopathy. Rare cases of suicidal ideation and suicide have been reported though no relationship to drug administration has been confirmed.



http://www.rxlist.com/lariam-drug.htm


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## Patriot (Nov 6, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> The first responder who shot Maj. Hasan, a female security officer of some kind, is also alive and in stable condition with several gunshot wounds.





Thanks for the updates *Halo*. I got a little behind in this thread.

I'm glad that she's alive, as she's probably one of the biggest reasons that more people weren't killed. I hope our hero makes a full recovery.








tygger said:


> Just read he may have been taking anti-malaria drug Lariam for his deployment to afghanistan? Don't know if thats confirmed or not. Here's something from rxlist.com website: :shrug:
> http://www.rxlist.com/lariam-drug.htm





Interesting "Warnings" page.
http://www.rxlist.com/lariam-drug.htm

I guess they'll have to determine whether or not this guy was behaving strangely before the drug was taken or not.


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## mousehunter (Nov 6, 2009)

just little bits I have noticed on other boards - currently it is thought the shooter had 2 handguns, but only one was used. It was a 5.7mm (5.7 is a very controversial pistol). But anyway, do the math and it is essentially .22", but not a .22lr any more than a .223 (5.65mm) is. The 5.7mm pistol is noted for being quite loud - and uses necked cases, which is why there was probably initial reports of a rifle being used. 

IMHO, the bullet that was lodged in your friend had already gone through something to slow it down. 

Hats off to the female civilian police officer who rushed towards the gunfire and prevented a lot more casualties. (I could whine a lot about other active shooter situations where the police did not engage)


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## Patriot (Nov 6, 2009)

mousehunter said:


> just little bits I have noticed on other boards - currently it is thought the shooter had 2 handguns, but only one was used. It was a 5.7mm (5.7 is a very controversial pistol).



Actually, only the caliber was slightly controversial. The only remaining controversy is among ballistic experts as to its effectiveness. Unfortunately this incident provides the kind of data they probably wish they didn't have. 

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF003&gid=FNG001

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

FiveSeven Forums:
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 6, 2009)

all speculation aside (command said we aren't allowed to...media's job) i hope this guy gets the firing squad...and if he tries the temporary insanity...i hope they give it to him and then put him in front of the firing squad...it makes me sick to think of the families hes ruined...and thank God for the policewoman that took him down without hesitation


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## Mjolnir (Nov 6, 2009)

From the little information that is known, it does not seem like this guy was suffering from schizophrenia. People would likely have noticed this. I am not really sure how someone can function as a _psychiatrist_ with schizophrenia. Schizophrenics have a lot of difficulties in their everyday lives, and there is no way that he could have functioned in the army with schizophrenia.
Additionally, males often first elicit symptoms of schizophrenia in their late teens or early 20's. It is unlikely that he just had a schizophrenic break at 39.

I would assume that he would be tried under the Uniform Code of Military Justice and not normal criminal law, since he is in the Army. In normal criminal law, you have to prove that you had a break with reality and were unable to determine the consequences of your actions and the difference between "right" and "wrong" in order to plead insanity. Insanity pleas are FAR less common in everyday life than they are portrayed to be by TV and the media. Not only are they not very common, but of those who plead not guilty by reason of insanity, far less than half actually succeed. 

I would think that he would be charged with some form of treason. Of course, it is too early to know the circumstances.


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## saabgoblin (Nov 6, 2009)

Truly horrific.

My best to all the families and loved ones that have been affected by this tragedy.


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## RAGE CAGE (Nov 6, 2009)

"It can only be one or the other, you can't plan to go insane.. " *StarHalo quote from page 2*......No disrespect intended or excuses offered up for this irrational act. With you same reasoning-
can you plan to stop yourself from going insane, or for that matter even recognize that it is happening?
A good friend of mine has been there- done that.....Ward 4 Walter Reed...has the DD-214 to prove it.....all inclusive thorazine/haldol vacation package for a couple of months. Didn't plan it- it just happened. Didn't hurt anybody.....

Wish there were more people in this world like Don (McGizmo).....wisdom, compassion......patience..does it come from being so in touch with nature- or is it the pure simple beauty of the ocean?




McGizmo said:


> It may be informative to see what truths and information come out about this and whether they will be given any spin; not that it would necessarily be recognizable as such.
> 
> Regardless, it is a tragedy. It would seem that this guy failed at the core of his humanity and took lives as a result. I can't imagine what it would be like to counsel soldiers suffering from their experience in battle. Depending on this guys levels of sympathy and empathy, the toll may have been more than he could handle. He may well have felt that some of the military actions being taken were wrong and with the upcoming proposition of being deployed he may have found himself at an impasse. From some of the comments I have read, it sounds like he wanted "out".
> 
> ...


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## StarHalo (Nov 6, 2009)

I'm still baffled by this phenomenon of concern for the mental state of the attacker - I don't recall anytime after 9/11 anyone asking of the main actors "Why didn't we hear their calls for help?" "Is there anything more we could have done to help these poor, mentally anguished men?" 

Is it just because he was in the field of psychiatry? I don't know if anyone noticed the earlier post, but his performance in the field was dismal; it's still in question why he was moved from Walter Reed to an army base, but it most likely has something to do with consistently poor reviews. In a profession that requires at least some form of empathy, it's not surprising that someone who feels the US is an enemy and has no place in the Middle East isn't going to do so well assisting grieving American soldiers returning from Iraq/Afghanistan. Hasan may have heard some horror stories, but had he actually been deployed, he would most likely have never seen anything remotely like that level of combat - a mental health specialist is going to be well behind the lines in an air-conditioned room somewhere doing paperwork most of the day (especially since soldiers avoid the stress reset facility, as it makes them look "weak" to their fellow soldiers.) 

Another way to view it - Would there be all this concern for his mental state if he were a cook? All the questions about psychological conflict and intense combat-related stress for the potato-peeler who'd never been off the base?

The question of moral choice is the most valid one, and he had already made that choice long ago, that he was already behind enemy lines, working for the aggressor who was going to send him off what he had exaggerated in his mind to be a blood-and-guts frontline in-the-trench all-out war (against those he felt kinship to). His alternative was to go ahead and follow in the footsteps of those great martyrs that he so revered, to take arms now against the enemy he was already amidst, and rejoin the Creator in Heaven everlasting. Basically the same motive for every terrorist and suicide bomber in the modern age - nothing new or profound, nothing learned but the plasticity of man's mind and morals to allow atrocity.

What should draw more attention is the female officer first responder, who rushed headlong into the middle of a catastrophic terrorist attack and boldly faced the attacker without hesitation. Or the officer sitting outside in his pickup truck who, upon hearing gunshots, immediately ran towards it, went directly for the wounded, loaded four into the back of the truck and sped off to the hospital. THAT's the mental state we should be focused on..


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## Mjolnir (Nov 6, 2009)

I don't completely understand the time frame of the events. I heard that the female officer responded to the scene something like 5 minutes after the 911 call. Does that mean that he was shooting people for 5 minutes? Otherwise, how could he still be able to fire at the officer upon her arrival?


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## tygger (Nov 6, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> I'm still baffled by this phenomenon of concern for the mental state of the attacker - I don't recall anytime after 9/11 anyone asking of the main actors "Why didn't we hear their calls for help?" "Is there anything more we could have done to help these poor, mentally anguished men?"



You phrase it as though attempts to understand "why" something like this happens equates sympathy with the attacker or reveals a lack of resolve. Shame on you for such a juvenile statement.


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## DonShock (Nov 6, 2009)

Mjolnir said:


> I don't completely understand the time frame of the events. I heard that the female officer responded to the scene something like 5 minutes after the 911 call. Does that mean that he was shooting people for 5 minutes? Otherwise, how could he still be able to fire at the officer upon her arrival?


The local news reports stated the officer and her partner were directing traffic nearby, heard the shooting, and responded. There was a college graduation occuring in a nearby building so I'm assuming that's the extra traffic they were directing. I also heard mention that the shooter was confronted in a courtyard. If so, that would suggest that the shooter had already exited the building. He may have been trying to flee the area or possibly heading to another building for more victims.


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## RAGE CAGE (Nov 6, 2009)

oops...duplicate...sorry


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## RAGE CAGE (Nov 6, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> nothing new or profound, nothing learned but the plasticity of man's mind and morals to allow atrocity.


 

Well said Sir.......same thing applies to politicians, lawyers and insurance salesmen. I* respect* your opinion and I am NOT trying to stir this pot.

I need to go look at Don's Maui Time picture gallery for some inner peace. Today is one of those days that I would glady trade all of my flashlights just for one swim with that sea turtle.


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## StarHalo (Nov 6, 2009)

tygger said:


> You phrase it as though attempts to understand "why" something like this happens equates sympathy with the attacker or reveals a lack of resolve. Shame on you for such a juvenile statement.



The first paragraph is to illustrate this recurrent strange anomaly of trying to find answers to questions already answered long ago. We already know why terrorists do what they do, so why the drawn out attempt to find some other reason? Are all the relevant facts leading up to the event going to turn out to be errors and the killer revealed as just being a nice guy with a misunderstanding? It all seems a bit off base to me; why not celebrate the actions of the first responders, why not a dialogue about integration in the Armed Forces, or more thorough psychiatric testing of soldiers, etc..



RAGE CAGE said:


> I* respect* your opinion and I am NOT trying to stir this pot.



And I yours, I'm not trying to agitate either, it's good to see that we can have a debate of this magnitude and depth civilly and without it being moved to the Underground. This is the best serious discourse I've seen on here for a loooog time..


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 6, 2009)

i think even freud would have a hard time coming up with a motivation dark enough to describe what this less-than-a-man did. Even if all the speculation is true, and it was religiously motivated...this man had something seriously broken in his head. I am not trying to excuse his behaviour because it was still of his own volition that this was committed and i fully expect him to be punished in this life and the next.


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## RAGE CAGE (Nov 6, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> And I yours, I'm not trying to agitate either, it's good to see that we can have a debate of this magnitude and depth civilly and without it being moved to the Underground. This is the best serious discourse I've seen on here for a loooog time..


 
I was thinking the same thing....this stings even worse because it is right before veterans day. Discourse is healthy when civility and respect can be maintained. These seem to be serious times we are living in and it is good to see we can discuss things like these without them spiraling into negativity- to try to understand all aspects of the situation at hand. Seems like our society is so consumed with trivial, vapid issues that real subjects that need to be addressed are swept under the rug.


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## RAGE CAGE (Nov 6, 2009)

SFG2Lman said:


> i think even freud would have a hard time coming up with a motivation dark enough to describe what this less-than-a-man did. Even if all the speculation is true, and it was religiously motivated...this man had something seriously broken in his head. I am not trying to excuse his behaviour because it was still of his own volition that this was committed and i fully expect him to be punished in this life and the next.


 
good point...and as you know from being thru basic training- it is more mental than physical for most. They used to break em down and build em back up the way they wanted them. Some are broken down so far that they can not be put back together to mil spec standards. Glad to see you can vent your frustrations here- has to be a super tough time where you are now.


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## McGizmo (Nov 6, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> ........ We already know why terrorists do what they do, so why the drawn out attempt to find some other reason? ......



I don't know who we is but I know I am not included. Is it now established that this was nothing more than a terrorist attack here? Regardless, there are many things I know for a certainty but that doesn't mean I understand them. To alter, fix or avoid something, it may require more than knowing about it and perhaps require an understanding into its nature and what brings it about. To this consideration, I post and comment.

I admit to speculation and no knowledge. Here's a real twisted what if for you. Suppose this guy encountered some patients who were so messed up that he even wondered if they would have been better off not making it back. What if he found himself questioning the reasons and justifications of sending our young people over there in harms way. If he shares a religion with some of the innocents over there who unfortunatly become collateral damage he may get it in his mind that we need to stop sending our youth over there. He may have a real aversion to killing and yet know from his training and experience that deaths are necessary for a big picture solution to come about. He knows people are going to die and he may be pretty screwed up in his thinking ( aside from all this speculation, I'd take this one comment as a given!). So in this guy's twisted mind he decides he needs to stop Americans from joining the military like he did and getting into things they shouldn't. He decides that if he takes out some of his own and fellow soldiers in the heartland itself that it would strike terror in those considering joining the military. He may rationalize that those he kills have already signed on with knowledge that they are at risk. I realize this is far fetched but I submit that this would be construed as a terrorist attack given the speculation offered but not one that "we already know". You couldn't know it because I just made it up. But is is possible?

You stated:



> His "stress" centered around having to do the service required of him for the government-provided free ride, something every other person in similar circumstances/military service has done without killing all their coworkers. He was seeking help for his problem, by asking his facility colleagues to gin up some medical disorder that could be noted on his record so he could avoid deployment.


Was he stressed or was he a cold blooded and calculating terrorist? Was he both? If he simply wanted to strike terror into his fellow Americans and even possibly get a way with it, why open fire on the base and why not in a mall? Do you know why he went off where and when he did or does it not matter? 

If someone near and dear to me where one of his victims, aside from wanting quick and appropriate punishment doled out to him, I would also want to know why???? I don't think a simple label would suffice either.

We know what this guy did and it can't be undone. If those who need to know why he did it as you say you do, do know why, then so be it. If not, lets hope they can find out and understand how to take appropriate measures to safeguard in the future.

I am not trying to stir stuff up here either and I too am grateful that this thread has survived to this point and not been locked. Certainly the UG has its merits and is more appropriate for much of what is on our minds these days but some of this stuff is just too close to home not to be discussed with the hope of some sort of understanding, above ground.

Probably can't make sense of the senseless but it would help to at least get some grip. :shrug:


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 7, 2009)

McGizmo & Star Halo, I think it is even simpler than that. People discuss the shooter, not because we feel sorry for him, but because when something so appalling happens normal people cannot fathom how anyone can do something like this. It is part of the way everyone copes with the shock of atrocities--trying to understand the reason/motivation...and it is looking more and more like this was a cold-blooded religious jehad type action, perhaps induced by his own personal stressors. I'm sure he is already becoming a hero among Islamic fundamentalist/radical terrorists, and giving ideas to groups like al qaeda.

I don't think any of us can imagine actually standing there and shooting at person after person. We understand (and appreciate) the heroics of the police officer (as well as all those others who routinely protect and serve us), but we are in shock at the killer's actions. It is especially bizarre that such a horrific murderer turns out to be an M.D., let alone a Psychiatrist trained in taking care of servicemembers with PTSD. It makes people crazy to even think about these types of situations. That's why there is a focus on him...like there was on the perpetrators of Virginia Tech, Maryland Sniper duo, 911 terrorists, Nazi atrocities, Columbine, etc.


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 7, 2009)

if he is what people are suspecting, its all the more strange as he has a shia last name and shias are traditionally not the type to attack outside their own country, they do in iraq to get us to leave, but they also hate al-qaeda as much as we do. Al-qaeda usually identify themselves as Sunni (though sunnis disown them) so its just very odd to have a guy with an apparent shia name doing this if it is indeed sposed to be that type of attack. (yes i am avoiding saying it for a reason)but again, thats speculation upon speculation upon speculation and only serves to make the situation more muddled than before. 

Sorry, I am just rambling through the thoughts in my head...still a bit unreal especially when i went to the PX today for some cleaning supplies and saw armed soldiers standing watch like we were in marshal law...

still my thoughts and prayers go out to the wounded and those families that lost loved ones...what i see in disbelief, they will have to deal with in a very real way, what they saw and what they've lost...


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## RAGE CAGE (Nov 7, 2009)

If you havent already read this- it is the most descriptive article I have seen to date.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125750297355533413.html

I guess some things never make a lot of sense- look back at the North Hollywood Bank Robery shootout- *44* minutes of over a thousand AP rounds fired by 2 shooters wearing home sewn aramid body armor and only the 2 shooters die. 
There was a whole heap of luck, grace or whatever you want to call it involved there.I know it was a totally different tactical scenario. Now we have one individual who created *4* minutes of carnage with around 100 rounds.
USS Liberty never made much sense to me either.
Don- I guess anything is possible-and the next year or two may hold some more answers for us all.


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## will (Nov 7, 2009)

I have been following this story on CNN on and off during the day and last evening. AC360 had interviewed the apartment manager where he lived. He was visited by someone in Muslim attire the day before. He had given away most of his furniture to his neighbors. Also, he had been using his next door neighbor's PC on and off since he moved into his apartment, even though he had his own PC.

The day of the shootings he went on to the post in Muslim attire, yet on previous days he would arrive in hospital scrubs. 

Either Larry King or Anderson Cooper interviewed a JAG lawyer, Not sure which show that was. The JAG lawyer indicated that the military may have become too Politically Correct. With that comment he explained that this person should have been challenged at some point in his Army Career. 

They also interviewed a fellow student in a Masters program they both attended on environmental issues. His presentation was on suicide bombers and how he favored them. 

As more and more information comes out about this guy, even if only half of it is correct, he gave many indications that there were problems. I would not try to guess what his diagnosis is according to the DSMO III guide, but he had some serious problems. This attack was a long time in the planning, not just a spur of the moment thing. 

My heart goes out to the families of the fallen and the wounded..

I used to ride the Long Island Rail Road into New York City. After 9-11 there were signs on the trains and in the stations that said ' If you see something, Say something, report it' 

There have been a number of reports that fellow students and co workers of this guy did in fact say something and yet nothing was done.


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## dudemar (Nov 7, 2009)

SFG2Lman said:


> but again, thats speculation upon speculation upon speculation and only serves to make the situation more muddled than before.



...which is exactly why I don't talk about this incident much. Until the facts come out all this talk is just speculation. It just serves to make an already tragic and chaotic situation even more confusing.


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## StarHalo (Nov 7, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> People discuss the shooter, not because we feel sorry for him, but because when something so appalling happens normal people cannot fathom how anyone can do something like this.



This is probably the bit of info I've overlooked; I suppose I'm such a newsie that when something like this happens, I just automatically assume everyone else puts together the pieces based on historically similar events, and sees the big picture long before the networks summarize it.. Corporations feel it's better to give incomplete information and be careful rather than just blurting everything out at once and possibly appearing cold and/or bigoted, and this event is a very good example.



McGizmo said:


> To this consideration, I post and comment.
> 
> I admit to speculation and no knowledge. Here's a real twisted what if for you.



That is the most remarkably gentle reconstruction of such an event that I've ever seen; very unique compared to the usual ham-fisted rage-filled "why I hate these people" retelling that has become so common in the modern age of the shrill voice. The majority of the points in that paragraph are on the right track, but some key pieces that bring it all together are missing; as I noted above, once you assemble some of the individual news bytes, a clear and consistent picture forms.

It goes something like this - You begin with the *extremist* (not majority or popular) Islamic belief that anything that's not Islamic and is on your Holy Land (which is anywhere that has a lot of Islamic people) is against God and therefore should be destroyed. You don't need any historical info about anything American soldiers have done to Islamic people in the past, the fact that they're present at all means they're horrible people and should die terrible deaths and burn in hell and etc etc. We know that Major Hasan subscribed to this belief because of his lengthy blog treatise equating suicide bombers to a soldier jumping on a grenade, his free and open statements to coworkers about how the US shouldn't be in the Middle East (profound by itself as it's an extreme breach of conduct - he could be jailed just for saying such things as an officer), and his content with the Little Rock recruiting office shooting, among other incidents. It was not just an anti-war belief, Hasan was clearly comfortable with the idea of non-believing "aggressors" being mass murdered outright.

This piece of info alone presents a broad range of insight - You now have this man who is in a position that's supposed to tend to the mental heath of distraught American soldiers, who feels that these soldiers are evil and God-forsaken attackers, and shouldn't be meddling with the people and lands he identifies with. It's a bit like if during the Vietnam conflict, an American soldier were to go to a North Vietnamese psychiatrist for treatment - it's just not going to go well. And it didn't, as his consistently poor reviews showed, and the fact that he was moved out of Walter Reed.

And that's the next key piece - while at Walter Reed, Hasan was at least somewhat removed from the reality of everyday military life, in a professional environment for collegiate training. But once he was dumped into Fort Hood, he was right in the middle of the grunts and on-the-ground soldiers who were coming and going from the front lines, and who had that unique warrior tribe culture that views the enemy as less-than-human. Now he is exposed daily to the open racism and bigotry, the slurs, the resentment, the candor and camaraderie of battle-hardened men who have been fighting and slaughtering the very people he identified with.

This is a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario; Was he extremist at first and then the military lifestyle pushed him, or was he merely resentful of the military and was then lead into extremism? The order doesn't entirely matter as the result is the same; how you order dominoes doesn't make much of a difference after one has been pushed..

So now you have this discontent extremist who views his life as being lived behind enemy lines, constantly bothered by enemy soldiers who shouldn't be doing what they're doing in the first place, bombarded by an entire civilization who doesn't understand his culture and ruins it at every opportunity, and now he has to be sent off to serve in the war against his own people. He goes to his medical field colleagues and does his best to get something, anything on his record that will keep him from having to serve, but they fail him as well. It's all just too much, something has to be done.

Along comes November 5th, and it's another day of preparation at the Readiness Center, *a few hundred soldiers* going from station to station and checking off those items and documents they need completed before deployment. And *the colleagues who declined to notate his record* will be there. Hasan will be deployed in a matter of days, so there is no time left and no better opportunity.

Hasan grabs his 20-round-capacity pistol, most likely hides it and drives through the front gate flashing his ID like any other day, no questions asked, walks out to the Readiness Center, shouts the perennial Islamic "God is great" to ensure the enemy knows the supremacy of the Lord's will and is about to be turned over to it, and opens fire on the crowd at a frenetic pace (a soldier first thought they overheard "microwave popcorn".) Moments later, after abandoning the building, while reloading in the courtyard, Sergent Kimberly Munley gets at least one shot very squarely to Hasan's torso and he is finally disabled; he lies on the ground secure in the knowledge that he has made an unavoidable statement that will scare the US out of the Middle East, that he has cut down a great number of the enemy just like the martyrs he so beloved, and is now to be returned to the Creator as a warrior hero who sacrificed himself in battle, Heaven everlasting his reward.

So you can see how the pieces fit together into the bigger picture story, a smooth and seamless retelling made from the individual bits that by themselves were too far out of the ordinary to make much sense. The cultural beliefs blend into the daily lives and culminate in struggle, within and ultimately without. Hasan killed for the glory of his Lord, for a political statement, for revenge made righteous by his beliefs. I don't know that any of the above will provide more understanding, but this is about as close to a Cliff's Notes condensation as it gets.



will said:


> There have been a number of reports that fellow students and co workers of this guy did in fact say something and yet nothing was done.



Every Titanic requires a comedy of errors to sink, this event being no exception. And now each person who overheard the Major and didn't report it will be facing very serious charges that are on par with sedition. 



RAGE CAGE said:


> I guess some things never make a lot of sense- look back at the North Hollywood Bank Robery shootout



That's a whole 'nother Oprah that I've studied in great detail; if you want to hear the whole story, you can start another thread about it, but it actually does culminate in some poignant moral lessons.


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## Empath (Nov 7, 2009)

StarHalo, yours has been removed. Whether it's accurate or not isn't considered, but the tendency to push it into such levels of conflict and personal disagreement should be taken to the Underground.

After reconsideration, I'll again make it visible. If it attracts greater concerns, it will again be removed.

Please continue to respect one another's viewpoints.


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## LUPARA (Nov 8, 2009)

Empath;
Thanks for leaving StarHalo's post alone. Beginning at the third paragraph, "It goes something like this...." He's talking about Islam (as taught in the Koran), not individuals; which is in itself something that the MSM seems reluctant to do. Simply put; an infidel is anyone that doesn't subscribe to the Koranic teachings; an extremely confusing text (and only in ancient Arabic)that needs tons of other books to explain it i.e. the Haditha. These books in turn, need Imams to further interpret what Muhammed said since there are only a handful of direct "how to" interpretations by Muhammed himself. So really; Imams carry with them a huge amount of power and control. If they teach what the Koran sez; then all of it is extreme in terms of infidels. Basically StarHalo's post could strike a raw nerve; there are many indications that Major Hasan was the recipient of teachings that place him firmly in the idealogically driven jihadist camp. I can only hope that Major Hasan fesses-up so that any doubts and speculation about the incident will be cleared up and the truth be know to all. In summary, this incident is not an anomaly for Islam; what I find truly sickening is the PC of the Pentagon itself and the resulting effect on officers that may have blown the whistle on Major Hasan; but rather, chose to remain silent for fear of reprimand and "hate crime" or "intolerance" accusations. I hope like hell I'm wrong on that.


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## Lightraven (Nov 8, 2009)

Starhalo,

The Army you describe isn't anything like what I know.


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## StarHalo (Nov 8, 2009)

Lightraven said:


> Starhalo,
> 
> The Army you describe isn't anything like what I know.



I'm not the only one trying to complete the puzzle with the pieces I have, feel free to contribute..


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## Lightraven (Nov 8, 2009)

Starhalo,

I didn't want to overly criticize since some of your other postings are more or less in line with my thoughts. 

As for the U.S. Army:

Army officers do not face jail for openly disagreeing with a war in the middle east. 

The Army is not openly racist or bigotted at all. It isn't even secretly racist or bigotted. 

The "unique warrior tribe culture" of the U.S. Army is not unique, not a tribe since almost anyone can join and not really much of a culture. I know it's a common cliche, but I consider it overwrought and probably only describes special forces like the Rangers, SEALs and a few others whose entire life and identity revolves around their job. Most soldiers do not have combat specialties or much combat training. The Fort Hood shooter is a good example.

U.S. soldiers do not view their enemies as less than human. I have never read or heard any veteran describe enemies that way. Our soldiers may or may not respect their enemies, may or may not hate them, but they are fully aware they are people, with all that implies. 

The "candor and camaraderie of battle hardened men who have fought and slaughtered" is somewhat ridiculous. This isn't Band of Brothers. The vast majority of troops have no direct combat experience, let alone "slaughtering" anybody. Some are women. 

Finally, soldiers experience many personal problems (like the shooter himself, arguably) but from what I understand, the vast majority are related to girlfriends and wives and financial issues, not the stress of combat. In all likelihood, the shooter would have received a long line of 19 year olds crying to him because their girlfriends dumped them while they were overseas or they were having trouble paying the bills. Those traumatized by combat were probably a very small minority and probably mostly injured soldiers.


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 8, 2009)

this is to some extent true lightraven, but 98% of soldiers that have deployed have had their compound mortared at least once while being there, and the helplessness this makes one feel can be enough to scar people. Not knowing where it will land and what damage it will do can get to people. My cousin still doesn't like fireworks shows (we used to shoot them at each other before he left) So to some extent everyone that deploys gets exposed to combat, whether its hand to hand and face to face, or bombs falling from the sky.


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## StarHalo (Nov 8, 2009)

Lightraven said:


> I didn't want to overly criticize since some of your other postings are more or less in line with my thoughts.



You bring up some good points and I should be more specific - In some areas of my retelling, I have made an effort to draw the reader into the shooter's point of view, which means exaggerating where his mind might have. Professionalism and diversity is what sets the American armed forces apart and above other armies of the world, and Maj Hasan most likely worked with men and women who treated him very well, above and beyond what he might even experience in a civilian office environment. 

But when you have an individual who lives the extremist state of mind 24/7, molehills become mountains; in a place where soldiers are just returning from the war, and others are being sent back yet again for second and third tours of duty, it would not be out of place to occasionally encounter a disdainful point of view of the enemy, maybe just one "nickname for those people" here, or a "why they're not civilized" statement there, which is all it would take to set off someone looking for a reason to be set off.

Your statements are much closer to the truth, but my statement is geared more towards the mindset..


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## Patriot (Nov 8, 2009)

LUPARA said:


> Thanks for leaving StarHalo's post alone. Beginning at the third paragraph, "It goes something like this...." He's talking about Islam (as taught in the Koran), not individuals; which is in itself something that the MSM seems reluctant to do. Simply put; an infidel is anyone that doesn't subscribe to the Koranic teachings; an extremely confusing text (and only in ancient Arabic)that needs tons of other books to explain it i.e. the Haditha. These books in turn, need Imams to further interpret what Muhammed said since there are only a handful of direct "how to" interpretations by Muhammed himself. So really; Imams carry with them a huge amount of power and control. If they teach what the Koran sez; then all of it is extreme in terms of infidels. Basically StarHalo's post could strike a raw nerve; there are many indications that Major Hasan was the recipient of teachings that place him firmly in the idealogically driven jihadist camp.




+1

The Muslim faith provides no guarantee of "heaven" unless they die in the act of jihad. This very well could have been a well reasoned, at least in the mind of a Islamic fundamentalist, motivation for the act. 

A lot of speculation going on in this thread but I don't think StarHalo's outside of the reasonable realm of it. That is to say, I have no problem with him suspecting that this was nothing more than a terrorist act since there are some pretty good initial indications for this so far. I neither have an issue about people trying to understand what happened in the mind of Hasan. Lux Luthor pretty much captured my thoughts in his previous post but it's only natural to ask why. Either he was schizophrenic or it was a reasoned action. Whatever folks want to speculate towards at this point seems fair and I don't even think there's grounds for debate yet. 

Historically, at least in western culture, it doesn't matter why one intentionally murders innocent people, the judgment is usually the same. Whether Hasan was a mad man or "rational" in his own mind, I don't think he deserves any sympathy...not saying that anyone has said that either. I'm just speaking generally. 

Wrong doing is an everyday theme for the human race and that has been the case past, present and will be in the future. If mankind doesn't grasp the root basis for morality, acts of immorality are likely to be more prevailent. Apart from this event, just watch the local news one evening or question why everything we own has a key or a security measure associated with it. Ask yourselves why we take measures to prevent our children being ubducted, why employers spy on employees, or why it's not wise for a female to walk in a dark, secluded parking lot alone. It's not because we're untrusting by nature, it's because we're unconsciously, conscious of the condition of humanity. That is to say, we go about our daily lives in recognition of some problem in the world, as evidence of our routines yet we rarely give much thought as to why we practice them or what it is that's at the root of the problem we're trying to guard against.


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## Lightraven (Nov 8, 2009)

SFG2Lman,

I defer to anybody still in uniform. The 98% figure surprises me, but I don't have any contradictory information. 

StarHalo,

I thought maybe that was the case, but it was told from a factual point of view--the Army is openly racist. I'll bet he dealt with worse growing up. Make no mistake, soldiers do call their enemies names. That's as old as humanity. That's different than racism or bigotry. These people are trying to kill us and do not earn any politeness for doing so. 

I have a unique and possibly very unpopular view of this shooting, which I won't mention. However, I think it may defy the usual labels of terrorism or mentally unstable active shooter.


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## StarHalo (Nov 8, 2009)

Shifting to a less speculative element for a moment: We now know that Hasan was armed with two pistols, an FN Herstal Five-Seven semi-automatic pistol and a Smith&Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, neither of which are Army issue, so we know he purchased these guns privately/himself at some earlier date. It's not clear if the revolver was used at all, and even if it were, the 5- or 6-round capacity means it may have only been briefly involved; the Five-Seven was the main weapon used for most, if not all, of the attack.

The Five-Seven was originally misreported as a .22 caliber pistol, due to carelessly equating the roughly equal caliber size of the two rounds; obviously a cause of some confusion since it would be very difficult to create such havoc with a tiny .22 sporting pistol. So here's a brief overview of the differences and better picture of what sort of weapon Hasan was using:

The FN Five-Seven:






It's a "plastic"/polymer-bodied semi-automatic handgun that retails for about $1500 (you probably won't find a street/non-registered copy). The first thing you notice right away (aside from your flashaholic eyes being drawn to the Surefire) are the bullets laying around the gun - those are the 5.7mm rounds, very clearly not at all related to .22 rounds. Although it seems the photographer just placed a random large handful around the gun, that's actually the capacity of the magazine, 20 rounds. And there are three magazines included with the gun - by buying just the gun and one box of ammo, you have everything you need to carry 50 rounds ready-to-fire with no further purchases/equipment.

The blue-tipped rounds above are Government-only Kevlar-piercing rounds, civilians can only buy the "sporting" non tipped rounds, seen here between a .22 and 9mm:





Again, the 5.7mm is definitely not a .22. The 5.7mm was originally developed for a military sub-machine gun, the FN P90, seen here above the Five-Seven:





That's certainly no plinking rifle; it's the weapon carried by the US Secret Service, as it's guaranteed to lay down a crowd of people regardless of what they're wearing or protected by. And its ammo is the same one found in the Five-Seven. 

Since the .22 isn't a fair comparison, we can compare it to a 9mm round in ballistic gelatin; Top is 9mm, bottom is 5.7mm:





The 9mm goes completely through the 12" block, creating a correspondingly large entry hole, a notable tumble, and leaving a 9mm puncture on the way out. The 5.7 also goes through the block, with an expected smaller entry and exit, but a remarkably disproportionate wound cavity as it tumbles, roughly _three inches_ in diameter. This is clearly a round designed for the military.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion on how so much damage was done with apparently one small pistol. As of today, nine of those injured are still in intensive care in critical condition; reports indicate that Hasan would approach the wounded and shoot for the head, so the death toll will probably climb in the coming days..


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## Kevin1322 (Nov 8, 2009)

Wow. That was very informative info on the weapon StarHalo. Thanks.


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## Mjolnir (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanks for that Starhalo. The last info that I heard had been of the gun being a ".22," which did not make much sense to me, even though I know very little about firearms when compared to many of you. I had no idea up until now that he was essentially firing P90 ammo, and the P90 is one serious instrument.
Those 5.7mm rounds look almost like shorter 5.56 rounds; it seems to me they are much closer to rifle rounds then more "conventional" handgun rounds.


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## tygger (Nov 8, 2009)

Lightraven said:


> I thought maybe that was the case, but it was told from a factual point of view--the Army is openly racist. I'll bet he dealt with worse growing up. Make no mistake, soldiers do call their enemies names. That's as old as humanity. That's different than racism or bigotry. These people are trying to kill us and do not earn any politeness for doing so.



How is that different from racism or bigotry? Is not the point of war to dehumanize the enemy to better enable soldiers to fight?


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## Lightraven (Nov 9, 2009)

tygger said:


> How is that different from racism or bigotry? Is not the point of war to dehumanize the enemy to better enable soldiers to fight?



Simple.
Racism is specific to race. 
Bigotry is specific to some other trait that is usually not chosen, such as religion, gender or sexual orientation.

Then, there is the contempt for those who are trying to kill you.


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## turbodog (Nov 9, 2009)

Mjolnir said:


> Thanks for that Starhalo. The last info that I heard had been of the gun being a ".22," which did not make much sense to me, even though I know very little about firearms when compared to many of you. I had no idea up until now that he was essentially firing P90 ammo, and the P90 is one serious instrument.
> Those 5.7mm rounds look almost like shorter 5.56 rounds; it seems to me they are much closer to rifle rounds then more "conventional" handgun rounds.



Good info from starhalo. Worth pointing out that 5.7 mm is only 2% larger diameter bullet than .22 caliber. Hence, the rounds could easily be described as .22 caliber.

5.7/25.4= .2244

This has nothing to do with bullet velocities, energy, shape, etc. It's simply a note about bullet diameter/caliber.


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## RAGE CAGE (Nov 9, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> The FN Five-Seven:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]FN Herstal 5.7 X 28mm Ammunition[/FONT]​[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SS190 - Armor piercing (AP)
SS191 - AP Tracer
SS192 - Hollow Point (not AP)
SB193 - AP Subsonic
SS195 - "Green" - lead free hollow point projectile with copper jacket (not AP)
SS196 - Sporting round (Hornady 40 gr. V-max, hollow point lead), (not AP)
10700004 Blank (not classified as ammunition under Federal law)
10700005 Dummy[/FONT]


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## Owen (Nov 9, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> babble, stolen pic, repeat..


Wow, government only, AP...Hornady V-Maxes. That's a new one. 
Maybe you should just credit the sites you stole your pics from, and shut up, since you're about totally clueless. 
btw, those "tips" that we "can't buy" are polymer, and cover the hollowpoint you moron.


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## Empath (Nov 9, 2009)

This thread is done.

Creation of a new thread on the topic will be permitted, but if so, let's leave out religious speculation. Referencing news source reports of religious incidentals is okay, but speculating, making claims that the actions are a result of a particular religious belief, and "educating" us on religions will need to be addressed in the Underground.

It's time to back up, and start over.


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