# Why Cree advances, but not SSC?



## Darell (Oct 6, 2007)

Am I dreaming here, or does it seem that Cree has gone from P4, up to Q2, 3, 4 and now Q5... while SSC's best offering is still the U-bin? This can't be right, can it? Somebody set me straight.


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## BentHeadTX (Oct 6, 2007)

Since SSC gives such a broad range (87 to 119 lumens at 350mA I think) One would think the V bin SSC would come out when the R bin Crees roll. Just a guess from me... take it for what it's worth.


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## Darell (Oct 7, 2007)

Ah... certainly a logical thought. Yeah, that's a pretty big lumen range, certainly (I'm not sure what you have is exact, but I'm also not going to bother looking it up either... it is close enough!) Being the skeptic, I just assumed we'd be lucky to see them much over the minimum rating - but maybe they're constantly improving and are just about to hit the upper limit???

Ah... and I still well remember my first Q-rank Lux1 low dome. In fact, I still have some in my museum.


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## LEDcandle (Oct 7, 2007)

Seoul may be busy developing their "420 lumen" emitter :-
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/070919/0304121.html?printer=1

Although it doesn't look like it's flashlight friendly, anything is possible. If that works out, forget the V-bin.. :laughing:


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## BentHeadTX (Oct 7, 2007)

Darell said:


> Ah... and I still well remember my first Q-rank Lux1 low dome. In fact, I still have some in my museum.



I still have a Minimag with Q4L Luxeon running off a BB400 (actually 416mA) current regulator board. The Minimag is fully pimped out with an extended bezel to hold an IMS 20mm reflector, crystal lens (window) and Kroll tail clickie. 

Funny thing though, people are still wowed by that minimag. It is not for sale, just a cruise down memory lane circa May, 2003 as it sits on a shelf.


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## 3rd_shift (Oct 7, 2007)

Last I heard, the SSC P4 led was based on a Cree die.
It looks like SSC is advancing in other directions on thier own now. 
It might be silly now for Cree to help them too much further imho.

Too bad nobody has a 4die, single package emitter like the Luxeon5 does, but at over 100 lumens per watt.
That's what I'm waiting for.


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## McGizmo (Oct 7, 2007)

With Cree providing the EZ1000 chips to other manufacturers it does make strange bedfellows considering Cree's XR-E package which in turn competes with these other manufacturer's packaged products.

Since Cree was providing chips first and not in the final package business their history and customer base for the chips is older and likely well established. I have no idea if there are departments within Cree like the raw chip division VS complete package solutions where there would be presumed infighting or not.

It has never been established to my knowledge if Seoul or Cree have clearly done a better job in getting the EZ1000 chip to perform. By factory specs, Seoul seemed to be ahead.

At this point in the game who knows if Seoul is getting the premium or high flux chips from Cree or not. :shrug: We also don't have a feel or insight into just what the yield of the dice that go into the Q rank XR-E's might me. Is it possible that Seoul is also getting some of these dice but not in numbers that they make them available to the market at large? Could Seoul have some premium contracts where all of their cream is going, unannounced?

So much potential for speculation!!! :green:

Recently there was a press release about one of the premium flashlight manufacturers going heavy with Seoul. Could this be based in part with an understanding or agreement on getting premium yield? :shrug:

I would guess that the behind the scenes goings on at both Cree and Seoul are behind the scenes and not likely to get public exposure without some marketing control and possibly even spin.

I have seen indication that Cree looks to bottom line at the expense of keeping square with previous agreements; at least at the small end of the spectrum. There have been some marketing games and press releases where IMHO, high end product has been released and touted but not on the high road. In this comment, I include Cree and Lumileds but this is an impression from outside and I understand that business is business and not necessarily friendly in nature. :thinking:

In high stakes poker, the players are not inclined to share their hand with the audience unless it fits in with their game plan I would guess.


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## mudman cj (Oct 7, 2007)

Hmmmm, ViReN seems to know something... oo::huh::huh::huh:


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## McGizmo (Oct 7, 2007)




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## KingGlamis (Oct 7, 2007)

LEDcandle said:


> Seoul may be busy developing their "420 lumen" emitter :-
> http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/070919/0304121.html?printer=1
> 
> Although it doesn't look like it's flashlight friendly, anything is possible. If that works out, forget the V-bin.. :laughing:


 
All I can say is WOW! I'm surprised this news isn't all over CPF. It says available in the fourth quarter of 2007, which is pretty much anytime now. And the article does say they could be used in torches. :twothumbs


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## easilyled (Oct 7, 2007)

LEDcandle said:


> Seoul may be busy developing their "420 lumen" emitter :-
> http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/070919/0304121.html?printer=1
> 
> Although it doesn't look like it's flashlight friendly, anything is possible. If that works out, forget the V-bin.. :laughing:



This has been commented on a few times already. 
Not as good as it looks since the article also states that the power
outlay to achieve this is 8W. 50lumens per watts is not as efficient
as Seoul's existing U-bin !!!

Going back to the original poster's question, in my experience the
SSC-P4-U-bin leds have been brighter than all the XRE-Crees until
they started to get to Q4 or Q5, so I'd say its more a case of
Cree catching up with Seoul rather than the other way round.

This may seem strange since the SSC-P4-U-bin uses Cree's EZ1000
die, but it certainly has been the case from my observations. :shrug:


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## LEDcandle (Oct 7, 2007)

Yeah we have no idea what the Vf of the LED is like, but it looks like it might be rather high. Still, the new emitter could be likened to the Lux V, requiring more voltage but putting out more power. Maybe it can be driven with lower for more efficiency and hopefully still put out 200+ lumens at 3w? 

We'll have to wait and see I suppose


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## Calina (Oct 7, 2007)

I believe, at the beginning, the difference in performance between CREE and Seoul, had to do with the phosphor they used and the way it was applied.

The better output we now see in the new bins from CREE might be mostly due to their better handling of phosphor and not so much to the improvement of the dies. If that is the case Seoul still receives the same dies from CREE and cannot do much better with them that they already do.


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## Crenshaw (Oct 7, 2007)

"Seoul Semiconductor Unveils World's Highest Brightness Single LED at 420 Lumens, 4 Times Brighter than Conventional LEDs"

If they drove those at 4 amps like cree is doing with its famous R&D 1000 lumen LED, thats something in the order of 2000lumens, is that possible?

and considering that CREE's is only going to be available possibly in the later part of next year, seems like SSC will take over the lead soon(?)

Crenshaw


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## skalomax (Oct 8, 2007)

mudman cj said:


> Hmmmm, ViReN seems to know something... oo::huh::huh::huh:


 

:candle:

I don't see anything regarding ViRen.

Wrong link perhaps?


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## mudman cj (Oct 9, 2007)

Oh sorry. I had too many tabs open at once and screwed up. Here is the correct link.

Now McGizmo's post makes a lot more sense to me.


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## Darell (Oct 10, 2007)

easilyled said:


> Going back to the original poster's question, in my experience the SSC-P4-U-bin leds have been brighter than all the XRE-Crees until they started to get to Q4 or Q5, so I'd say its more a case of Cree catching up with Seoul rather than the other way round.



Ah, but I'm starting from TODAY... where the Q5 availability seem huge and reasonably priced. In my experience the Q5s are pushing out more photons than the U-bins that I have. But as I said - I don't know if SSC is inrementally improving their emitters within that relatively large lux range. May well be - it isn't like I buy a new emitter off the line every week to test!

Sounds to me like Don is just trying to stir up the hornet's nest.


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## ICUDoc (Oct 10, 2007)

I agree Darell- I put most of my LEDs on the photon box and see that the Cree Q5s seem on average well above the SSCs in terms of output- but I have had a couple of excellent SSC performers: IMO the problem is partly that enormous binning range SSC uses- maybe narrowing that up will let us get their better stars- at a price, of course!!


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## Darell (Oct 10, 2007)

ICUDoc said:


> I agree Darell- I put most of my LEDs on the photon box and see that the Cree Q5s seem on average well above the SSCs in terms of output- but I have had a couple of excellent SSC performers: IMO the problem is partly that enormous binning range SSC uses- maybe narrowing that up will let us get their better stars- at a price, of course!!



Yeah, that wide SSC brightness range is an interesting marketing strategy, isn't it? For "normal" use, nobody would really care. But for guys like us? Forgeddaboutit.


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## Kiessling (Oct 10, 2007)

I appreciate it. It simplifies things and has no negative side effects. The Cree binning madness is slowly starting to be annoying while it is refreshing to have just "The SSC" for now ... and if there's the V-bin, it will be a step of at least a limited importance as opposed to Cree, where going from Q4 to Q5 ... well ... you know ... is just as important as the dust on my shelves.
bernie


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## easilyled (Oct 10, 2007)

Darell said:


> Ah, but I'm starting from TODAY... where the Q5 availability seem huge and reasonably priced. In my experience the Q5s are pushing out more photons than the U-bins that I have. But as I said - I don't know if SSC is inrementally improving their emitters within that relatively large lux range. May well be - it isn't like I buy a new emitter off the line every week to test!
> 
> Sounds to me like Don is just trying to stir up the hornet's nest.



It could be that Seoul are going to bring out a V-bin soon that will put Q5's well and truly in the shade.

Q4/Q5s can't have been around for more than a couple of months and up until then SSC-P4-Ubins were
brighter than Cree-XREs. Even now I wouldn't say there's much of a noticeable difference in brightness.

I could speculate that Cree are improving the efficiency of their dies gradually but will only release their
improved dies to Seoul once they exceed the upper limit of the much larger range of output given for
SSC-P4. Hence the fact that there appears to be more progress for the XREs.


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## jwl (Oct 10, 2007)

I'm wondering when we will see better Bins also. What really peaks my interest is the fact that SSC has already got the bin ranges listed all the way to Y.

Who wouldn't like to get a Y bin???


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## Darell (Oct 10, 2007)

Kiessling said:


> just as important as the dust on my shelves.
> bernie



I'm going to adopt this as my new yardstick. Any new technology will be deemed either more, equal, or less important than Bernie's shelf dust. Winner!

Let's just not get out of hand and compare the importance of the contents of my posts, however...


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## 3rd_shift (Oct 10, 2007)

Truthfully, I'm just waiting to see where the best premium chips from who-ever end up next. 
Who-ever ends up with them gets to sell me some more leds for my next mods. :rock:

I can certainly say for sure that The Cree XRE Q4's I got a few months ago in the WC "very white" tint were real winners in every way.
I'm now kinda sorry I sold that 500+ lumen 6D Magmod I built with them.
They really blew away the earlier Cree XRE P2 flux leds I previously had. :thumbsup:
The new owner of that light rightfully loves it. 
But I shall build another one soon enough. :naughty:


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## MikeSalt (Oct 11, 2007)

The fact that Seoul have such a broad classification for their bin worries me. When Cree test each emitter to determine which tightly-tolerated bin they sit in, this obviously gives them a 'quality control' opportunity. I assume Seoul just test a small sample and assume they all roughly lie in that U-bin range. And then just ship them out having never tested it?

As a consumer, I would want to know what output to expect to a tolerance alot tighter than what U-bin is.


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## uk_caver (Oct 11, 2007)

The SSC bins are about as wide as the Luxeon ones.
I guess the *average* consumer would probably have difficulty telling apart devices from the top and bottom end of the U-bin excedpt in a careful comparison.

Though it may be that the great bulk of Seoul production is U-bin, they also bin for colour and forward voltage, which may vary rather more from device to device(?), and which some consumers will want to know about.

Even if the binning isn't too important for some consumers, I'd have thought that industrial consumers would rather like to be sure the devices are at least going to work before putting them in products?


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## Darell (Oct 11, 2007)

MikeSalt said:


> The fact that Seoul have such a broad classification for their bin worries me. When Cree test each emitter to determine which tightly-tolerated bin they sit in, this obviously gives them a 'quality control' opportunity. I assume Seoul just test a small sample and assume they all roughly lie in that U-bin range. And then just ship them out having never tested it?
> 
> As a consumer, I would want to know what output to expect to a tolerance alot tighter than what U-bin is.



And surprisingly, there are some big players (that Don aluded to earlier) who have gone with Seoul specifically because Seoul is doing a better job of providing the expected product. :shrug: Ah, but I don't want to get into the industry dirt from that direction. I'd have to dgo to the Underground.

If nothing else it is an interesting situation.

Hey... while I'm here, and too lazy to start a new thread... does anybody remember the Lux range of the original Luxeon 1W emitter when it came out? I'm trying to remember and find it... coming up empty on both accounts.


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## uk_caver (Oct 11, 2007)

Darell said:


> Hey... while I'm here, and too lazy to start a new thread... does anybody remember the Lux range of the original Luxeon 1W emitter when it came out? I'm trying to remember and find it... coming up empty on both accounts.


The oldest datasheet I have is dated 02/13/04, and the characteristics there were minimum 13.9lm, typical 25lm @ 350mA.


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## Darell (Oct 11, 2007)

uk_caver said:


> The oldest datasheet I have is dated 02/13/04, and the characteristics there were minimum 13.9lm, typical 25lm @ 350mA.



Awesome. Thanks for that. So the total amount of light that we started with is about the same as the *spread* of output just in the current U-bin. Amazing.


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## Martini (Oct 12, 2007)

Luxeon-scale binning only makes sense with older, less reliable manufacturing technology, or spotty QC, IMHO. I'm not sure why SSC opted for this when Cree, who sources them the dice, adopted a much narrower and more sensible approach.

Still anxiously awaiting R bins!


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## ViReN (Oct 12, 2007)

I heard about V bin Seoul on translated version of Chinese Forum... 

The latest Q5 Cree's have higher Vf as compared to older Cree XR-E Dies and Luxeon Rebel. Comparatively, for same EZ1000 the final output of LED is governed by the Prosper composition and the way die is mounted on the base (heat, electrical conductivity included).

(Until Q5 and Rebel 100) Seoul's were ahead in terms of brightness but it seems from the wide flux range is a hit or miss affair as compared to Cree's Prosper? or they just do not want to have sales directed towards higher bins .... and lower bins will remain in stock... perhaps being sold at a loss... 

Rebel 100 seems to be very consistent in terms of flux and color bin...
..but still a lottery it is...

Cree Q5 VS Luxeon Rebel 100 ... Rebel has a slight edge (having Lower Vf)

Cree's R Bins.. would be interesting to see... .especially if they have a lower Vf combined with the R Flux...


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## chris_m (Oct 12, 2007)

3rd_shift said:


> Too bad nobody has a 4die, single package emitter like the Luxeon5 does, but at over 100 lumens per watt.
> That's what I'm waiting for.


Is 65lm/W (about the same as an original P3 XR-E) - hence ~450lm at 7W good enough for you? https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/173306


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## jtr1962 (Oct 12, 2007)

uk_caver said:


> The oldest datasheet I have is dated 02/13/04, and the characteristics there were minimum 13.9lm, typical 25lm @ 350mA.


You can get this same amount of light now at roughly 80 mA and less than a quarter watt, no heatsinking required. We've come amazingly far in less than four years.


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