# Why No Seoul or Cree Headlamps???



## River Runner (Feb 22, 2007)

Is the market really that small for headlamps that NOBODY makes one with the new generation LED emitters? I just reviewed the LED flashlight thread and it looks like there are already 52 flashlights using the SSC or Cree emitters with more on the way. Is it a matter of market size? Or, does it have something to do with the fact that there are fewer headlamp manufacturers and they are so large that change is more difficult (ala SF)?

I really need a longer lasting, brighter headlamp soon for nighttime kayak racing. Weight is at a premium, so carrying 1/2 the batteries would really be helpful (not to mention half as many stops to change batteries).

I read that modding the lights is simple, but I've never done that and don't know what kind of epoxies, solders, etc. are required. Likewise, I'm not sure about removing stock emitters. 

RR


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## canvasa (Feb 22, 2007)

removed


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## mdocod (Feb 22, 2007)

I'm noticing the same thing. I needed to buy a good headlamp for a caving trip coming up, was really hoping a Cree based would be available. Settled on an Argo HP because the regulation should work fine with a P4 swap.


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## gunga (Feb 22, 2007)

Quick suggestion. Mod a PT EOS. Very easy to swap out the Luxeon star.

I just put in a P4 Cree and IMS17. Beam is a bit ringy, but very bright (I used some PDA film to smooth out the beam at the expense of some lux).

That's one of the easiest mods. I think Seoul swap would be even better (little or no reflector mods needed.)


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## wasBlinded (Feb 22, 2007)

It will just take a bit of time for Cree/Seoul headlamps to get to market. The makers of quality headlamps aren't quite as nimble as the boutique flashlight makers like Fenix, etc. but they will come.


Meanwhile, mod an existing headlamp. Like gunga said, the PT Eos should be an easy mod. Order a SSC P4 Star from Photonfanatic, and make the swap.


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## lasercrazy (Feb 23, 2007)

I'd love to see a SSC P4 stenlight.


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## gunga (Feb 23, 2007)

Hey, has anyone tried the SSC P4 in an EOS? I have a cree star in mine, ringy beam, had a bunch of modding needed on the reflector.

I'm curious if a seoul is more of a drop-in for the IMS 17 reflector.


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## ktronik (Feb 24, 2007)

gunga said:


> Hey, has anyone tried the SSC P4 in an EOS? I have a cree star in mine, ringy beam, had a bunch of modding needed on the reflector.
> 
> I'm curious if a seoul is more of a drop-in for the IMS 17 reflector.




https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/149500

EOS+XR-E+IMS20 & Seoul+IMS17= 2*Kick ***

Ktronik


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## gunga (Feb 24, 2007)

Ktronic, that is wicked!

BTW, what is IMS17 LS? WHat's the LS stand for? What kind of modding was needed for the reflector? Was it a drop -in mod?

I have a Cree with a modded IMS17 and diffusion film. I may pick up another EOS to put in a seoul and IMS17.

:goodjob: 

Nice mods, I'd like to try making a "floody" myself.

Hmmmm, how many headlamps do I really need... (already have a modded EOS and a quad).

:naughty:


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## ktronik (Feb 24, 2007)

gunga said:


> Ktronic, that is wicked!
> 
> BTW, what is IMS17 LS? WHat's the LS stand for? What kind of modding was needed for the reflector? Was it a drop -in mod?
> 
> ...




LS= light stipple... floods it up a bit more...

K


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## CM (Feb 24, 2007)

The Seoul P4's make it easy to take your luxeon based headlamp and modify it. They drop right in (with a little shimming) and you will get roughly twice the output of what you're getting with a Lux I or Lux III based headlamp.


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## gunga (Feb 24, 2007)

Can I drop a seoul into an IMS modded EOS? What kind of shimming? Do I need to drill out the reflector?

Man, don't really want to sputter my reflector. Ktronic, did you buy your ims 17 with stipple or did you do it yourself? If you purchased, it, where do you get textured IMS 17s?


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## DaveNagy (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm also interested in modding an EOS to make a bright, floody, headlamp for camping, etc. Sounds like I'd want to go with the Seoul+IMS17 route in that case. A few questions, if by chance someone has the info/links handy:

Where would one procure an IMS17 and/or and IMS17LS?
Same question about a Seoul P4, and are "Q" bins available anywhere yet?
Is there something resembling a how-to for performing the actual mod? Sounds like I'll need to add a heatsink as well?


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## ktronik (Feb 25, 2007)

All this is pretty well covered now... do a search for eos... or my eos posts...

PhotonFanatic sells IMS 17/20... both will work...I stippled it myself...don't worry to much about this, effect is only small... don't really need to worry about the heatsink as well...


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## zgurl (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi,

as Ktronik said, EOS modding is pretty well covered now. Keep it simple: open the light, swap the emiter with a seoul (or cree), swap the stock optic with IMS... and close the light!

If you are intersted in very long runtime, you can consider a "3AA modding" of your 3AAA headlamp: drill a little hole in the backof the light so that two wires can get inside and can be soldered to the +/- of the light. Then you can use a 3AA pack in your pocket. Simple and really efficient (more than twice the runtime!!) - dont forget to get the AAA off the headlight!  

With such a modding, my EOS is running on "high" mode at a very bright level for more than 10 hours with costless NiMh  so that I can run all night long (no more reason to stop).


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## cmaylodm (Feb 25, 2007)

How is the throw using a Seoul and IMS17?


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## DaveNagy (Feb 25, 2007)

Thanks, guys. Yeah, I figured the answers were already "out there", I just wasn't sure where.  Is looks like I'll be ordering the Seoul P4 emitter, and the IMS reflector, and maybe some "Arctic Alumina Thermal Adhesive" (in case I want to try to bodge together some sort of heatsink) from PhotonFanatic. See his thread here.

I also ordered a diffuser from Lighthound, since that seemed like something that would be worth trying out. Less fiddly than homebrew sputtering at least, and easily reversible. While I was there, I noticed that Lighthound was selling the EOS at a pretty decent price. Too late for me, but something for others to consider.

I was thinking of sanding a penny smooth, and using it as a heatsink. Perhaps I'd want to use two pennies for more thickness? I have no idea. It's not clear to me whether there is enough room (depth) available. I guess there are supporting "pegs' that would need to be removed in order to make space for a heatsink underneath the emitter?

Ktronic, is this how the mod goes, basically?

Disassemble the EOS by opening the battery compartment, and then gently prying out the guts.
Detach the thermistor from the bottom of the existing star, using a razor blade, or similar. Leave the thermistor wired, and in place.
De-solder and remove the existing star, leaving the existing wires in place.
(optional) Using an epoxy that is heat-conducting, but not-electrically-conducting, attach some sort of heatsink to the back of the Seoul emitter. Or perhaps attach the heatsink to the board first.
Solder the existing wires onto the Seoul emitter.
Reattach the thermistor to the emitter?
Pluck out the existing optics, and drop in the IMS17 in its place.
Sandwich everything back together, making sure the back of the reflector sits down flush onto the emitter.
Enjoy!


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## tvodrd (Feb 25, 2007)

lasercrazy said:


> I'd love to see a SSC P4 stenlight.



Last week, I mailed 4 SS P4 emitters to JSB to forward to the Stenlight folks.


Larry


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## ktronik (Feb 25, 2007)

DaveNagy said:


> Thanks, guys. Yeah, I figured the answers were already "out there", I just wasn't sure where.  Is looks like I'll be ordering the Seoul P4 emitter, and the IMS reflector, and maybe some "Arctic Alumina Thermal Adhesive" (in case I want to try to bodge together some sort of heatsink) from PhotonFanatic. See his thread here.
> 
> I also ordered a diffuser from Lighthound, since that seemed like something that would be worth trying out. Less fiddly than homebrew sputtering at least, and easily reversible. While I was there, I noticed that Lighthound was selling the EOS at a pretty decent price. Too late for me, but something for others to consider.
> 
> ...




PhotonFanatic is now selling SSC P4 stars... no need to 'make' a SSC P4 star...

just swap the LUX star for the SSC P4 version...

you need to take 0.03" off the bottom of the IMS17, to bring the SSC P4 into focus...just rub the reflectors bum on a file...while holding flat...

ktronik


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## DaveNagy (Feb 25, 2007)

Oh, excellent. I just came across that thread, and was in a panic. (Okay, not really) "Wait, P4s don't come on a star? Oh no, what will I do?!?" :shrug:

So, prior to these P4-with-stars coming out, one had to desolder the Lux emitter from its star, and replace it with the P4 emitter? That sounds pretty fiddly. I guess my timing was excellent in that respect. 

Thanks for the tip about filing down the back of the reflector a smidge. Maybe I need to buy some calipers.


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## River Runner (Mar 1, 2007)

Okay, you guys convinced me I can do this mod!!! Photonfanatic just informed me that an SSC P4 is in the mail. Details in a week or so.

RR


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## DaveNagy (Mar 2, 2007)

I've received my EOS, and I think I see how it opens. (Two black plastic pins protrude into the battery compartment. I'll have to break, drill, or melt them, I think.) I received my diffuser from Lighthound yesterday. I got my calipers today. (I always wanted some, so it was nice to have an excuse.) I also got the email from Fred, telling me that my P4 star, reflector, and heat conductive adhesive is shipping out today.

I love it when a plan comes together! 

I think I'm gonna try attacking those plastic pins with my soldering iron. It's got a small chisel tip on it, so I'm hoping that I'll be able to melt a slot into each pin, and otherwise leave it semi-intact. Then, when I pry off the back of the unit, I'm hoping that the slots will squeeze closed, allowing the back to come off without breaking the pins. That all sounds _highly_ unlikely, but I figure it's worth a shot. Worst case, I end up breaking the pins off "as usual".

Should I consider "test fitting" the reflector to the star in order to check the quality of the beam? Or should I just sand off 0.03 inches like ktronic says and hope for the best? Are the tolerances on both the reflectors and stars such that I can assume that the measurements will work out perfectly, or is there anything I can double check with my fancy new calipers?


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## NoFair (Mar 2, 2007)

I don't think you need to destroy the tabs. Using a soldering iron for this can ruin the tip for soldering so I would not use the iron.

Besides from that; Enjoy your improved light


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## yellow (Mar 2, 2007)

going back to the original question ("Why no powerled headlamps"):

too new, remember how long it took to get Luxeon-Headlamps
mass headlamp market is backpackers/mountaineerers/climbers.
those guys dont need power, they want small and no weight and long runtime.
I once got constant complatints while a tour at night for my headlamp mod being too bright, they could not see anything with theirs. Ended up to have that 2-cell Lux III Mod running at low level of ~100 mA to the emitter and it still was a lot brighter than the Tikkas around
(its all in the focusing) 

But just wait a bit, by the end of this year at least, the prime makers will put some headlamps out


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## PeLu (Mar 7, 2007)

lasercrazy said:


> I'd love to see a SSC P4 stenlight.


The Scurion uses two P4s.

I had a prototype in use for a month long caving expedition just now.


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## River Runner (Mar 7, 2007)

Okay, so I went out on a limb and purchased one of Photonfanatic's Seoul SSC P4 stars and some thermal paste and did the mod on my Myo XP this afternoon. I was shocked that even I didn't mess it up. Took me about 15 minutes and was relatively easy -- after I went down to Lowe's and found a set of tiny Torx drivers to fit the screws.

The light is significantly brighter than with the stock luxeon led. I haven't done any runtime tests, but am hopeful that it will last longer as well. I'm happy with the results.

Now I need to find a waterproof, regulated light to mod. Any suggestions?

RR


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## NoFair (Mar 8, 2007)

River Runner said:


> Okay, so I went out on a limb and purchased one of Photonfanatic's Seoul SSC P4 stars and some thermal paste and did the mod on my Myo XP this afternoon. I was shocked that even I didn't mess it up. Took me about 15 minutes and was relatively easy -- after I went down to Lowe's and found a set of tiny Torx drivers to fit the screws.
> 
> The light is significantly brighter than with the stock luxeon led. I haven't done any runtime tests, but am hopeful that it will last longer as well. I'm happy with the results.
> 
> ...



Princeton tec EOS or Apex/Apex Pro


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## Frobe22 (Mar 8, 2007)

I just modded my own Myo XP with an USW0H P4 star. Fitted a 1mm copper plate as spacer under the star to make sure the "heatsink" would be in contact with the star.
My eyes tells me it is a little bit brighter, but hotspot is at least doubled in size. This is probably due to optics not matched to the P4 emitter.
Current consumption is the same compared to my wifes unmodded unit, except turbo mode is 0.1A less than stock. Lowest setting is in fact dimmer than stock, that may be due to different voltage efficiency.


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## porschefan (Mar 21, 2007)

What's the runtime look like on the modded EOS running a Seoul emitter?


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## wasBlinded (Mar 21, 2007)

As a generalization, there should be no difference at any given level. That does depend of course on the Vf of the original LED vs the replacement.


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## yellow (Mar 22, 2007)

I dont like the AAA batts and therefore got the streamlight Argo HP some time ago. imho the much better choice.

Just swapped emitter to a SSC star. Totally newbie mod, if You are able to do 4 solder points.

batt compartment modded for 18650 Li-Ion, the circuit draws 80 and 350 ma from the batt, giving some 20 and 6 hours of runtime. Very bright for a headlamp imho.

Beam already was not good in original state, but now is very ringy, as the floody reflector was built for the side emitter. Cut some 1 mm from the back to have it seat deeper on the emitter and the rings are now very concentrated. 
As it is still a headlamp, it will remain like this, maybe will get modded with another reflector somewhen.


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## FoxFury (Mar 22, 2007)

FoxFury has released its Pro III Tactical headlamp. It uses four 3 Watt CREE XR-E LEDs.

This headlamp will be 500 lumens (1/2 as bright as our MF 1000 Tac-Fire flashlight). It will also use CR123 batteries, making it lighter than our other Pro Models (which use C batteries).

http://foxfury.com/products/pro_series/tactical/tactical_3.html


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## Art Vandelay (Mar 22, 2007)

That looks fantastic. Could you make a lightweight 1 CREE XR-E version that runs off 1 CR123 battery? Most of the time, if I am using a headlamp it is to free both hands so I can work with something right in front of me. Even one CREE XR-E can be too bright for that. Several levels of brightness would be ideal. Thanks.



FoxFury said:


> FoxFury has released its Pro III Tactical headlamp. It uses four 3 Watt CREE XR-E LEDs.
> 
> This headlamp will be 500 lumens (1/2 as bright as our MF 1000 Tac-Fire flashlight). It will also use CR123 batteries, making it lighter than our other Pro Models (which use C batteries).
> 
> http://foxfury.com/products/pro_series/tactical/tactical_3.html


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## FoxFury (Mar 22, 2007)

Hi Art

I do not know if we can make a 1 Cree XRE version operating off of 1 CR123 battery but I will look into it. The Pro III Tactical is designed for activities and professions requiring a great deal of light like Caving and Arson Investigation.

The light has 6 modes with some varying degrees of brightness:
2 Outer, 2 Inner, 60% Intensity, 100% Intensity, Flashing (1 Hz) and SOS.

Hope that helps.


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## niemidc (Mar 30, 2007)

lasercrazy said:


> I'd love to see a SSC P4 stenlight.



There are big differences between something that's interesting for a hobbyist or for low-volume niche products, and something that's usable in wider-scale manufacturing. And even in a niche, it's not practical to design for the LED du jour, when something new is always going to be coming out the next month.

But in the case of the StenLight, if you're serious, ask for a custom order through the company store. It'll cost you $35 extra for the customization fee and the cost delta on the LEDs, or you can supply your own.

We've made one for testing -- the SSC P4 is close enough to a Luxeon III that the beam pattern with the stock optics turns out pretty close to the same. The main difference you'll notice is a cooler color temperature. It won't sustain 1A as well as a Luxeon III -- you either need a lower temperature limit, or to stick to 700mA on Turbo. I'd recommend the latter. The result is not any brighter, but it does consume perhaps 30% less power for roughly the same brightness. That might sound like a lot to you, but we've made bigger improvements than that with gradual tweaks to the circuitry and LEDs, just within the Luxeon III line, since the first S7 headlamps produced.

One more caveat -- the P4 is not nearly as well electrically protected as the Luxeon III. This might translate into less reliability, though it should be pretty safe inside the StenLight circuit (where it's both current and temperature regulated).

As for the CREEs, we've experimented with them, but unlike the SSCs they are completely incompatible with Luxeon IIIs, both optically and physically. For that matter getting a good beam pattern out of an XR-E is a major challenge even with a complete redesign.


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## niemidc (Mar 30, 2007)

CM said:


> The Seoul P4's make it easy to take your luxeon based headlamp and modify it. They drop right in (with a little shimming) and you will get roughly twice the output of what you're getting with a Lux I or Lux III based headlamp.



That's a bit optimistic. If you're comparing to a modern variety of Luxeon III driven at full power, you can use less power, but it's not necessarily going to produce more light, that depends on the details.


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## niemidc (Mar 30, 2007)

tvodrd said:


> Last week, I mailed 4 SS P4 emitters to JSB to forward to the Stenlight folks.
> 
> 
> Larry



Thanks! We haven't seen them yet, but got some of our own (U bin).


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## InTheDark (Apr 3, 2007)

Is this the first cree headlamp on the market?

http://powerlong.en.alibaba.com/pro...p/5_Watt_American_Cree_LED_Bulb_Headlamp.html

Not exactly what I'm looking for, but maybe someone else here may have tried it. I thought foursevens had a line on a new cree based headlamp, any new information about it? I've been purposely holding off on any more purchases until something new and exciting comes out, but it's been hard. I think I may be going in to withdrawl, need to buy something, anything.


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## colina (Apr 11, 2007)

I do not know if we can make a 1 Cree XRE version operating off of 1 CR123 battery but I will look into it. The Pro III Tactical is designed for activities and professions requiring a great deal of light like Caving and Arson Investigation.

My requirements are the opposite of needing a 1 cell version of the Pro III. I am looking for a high power LED headlamp for night fishing. The sort of runtime I need is to run continously say on 50% power for 8-10 hours with about 2 hours on full power in that time. Currently I use a Yukon HL but there is not enough range on the beam to see fish being landed on the rocks or from a pier.

In the UK, CR123 batteries are not common and expensive. 
Are there any plans to offer the ProIII with the option of rechargeable AA or C cells?

Thanks.


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## FoxFury (Apr 12, 2007)

Hi Colina

Our standard Pro version uses 4 C batteries though it is no where near as bright as the Pro III. 

I do not believe we will be offering the Pro III with the option of AA or C batteries anytime soon--we may re-evaluate this at some point in the future.

FYI, we have just added a Pro III Bike Version as well. http://foxfury.com/products/pro_series/bike/bike_3watt.htm

In terms of finding CR123 batteries, Battery Station (http://www.batterystation.com/cr123a.htm) has them for a good deal. It looks like their European distributor is http://www.miracle-store.de/ in Germany. Some other CPFrs may be able to recommend a better place.

I hope this helps.


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## jar3ds (Apr 13, 2007)

i still wish for a single SSC/Cree headlamp (integrated, battery's and light unit both in front)... with some type of red lighting option as well as the normal white LED light... if you could run it on 1xCR123 / 1xRCR123 or 1xAA (nimh, alk, lithium or 14500) it would be the best headlamp available... as long as its waterproof  and around 100 grams....


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## ZebraLight (Apr 13, 2007)

Zebra Lighting will be releasing a Cree based headlamp next month. Initial spec: 1AA (alkaline, nimh, lithium, 14500), aluminum body, lightweight (less than 30g without headband and battery), waterproof, 3 stage twistie, flood beam, adjustable beam angle.



jar3ds said:


> i still wish for a single SSC/Cree headlamp (integrated, battery's and light unit both in front)... with some type of red lighting option as well as the normal white LED light... if you could run it on 1xCR123 / 1xRCR123 or 1xAA (nimh, alk, lithium or 14500) it would be the best headlamp available... as long as its waterproof  and around 100 grams....


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## jar3ds (Apr 13, 2007)

ZebraLight said:


> Zebra Lighting will be releasing a Cree based headlamp next month. Initial spec: 1AA (alkaline, nimh, lithium, 14500), aluminum body, lightweight (less than 30g without headband and battery), waterproof, 3 stage twistie, flood beam, adjustable beam angle.


 OMG!!!!!!!!!!! No way... seriously? Photo??? PLEEEEEEZEEE!


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## ZebraLight (Apr 13, 2007)

jar3ds said:


> OMG!!!!!!!!!!! No way... seriously? Photo??? PLEEEEEEZEEE!


 
Sorry we don't have any photos at this moment, but I can say that it's VERY small and lightweight, even for a headlamp. 

There will be three levels at low around 8, med around 40 and max around 100. We may set a max over 100, but since it's a headlamp, long runtime (with very efficient boost converter) is our priority. We bought an integrating sphere to make sure all those figures correct.


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## Art Vandelay (Apr 13, 2007)

ZebraLight said:


> Zebra Lighting will be releasing a Cree based headlamp next month. Initial spec: 1AA (alkaline, nimh, lithium, 14500), aluminum body, lightweight (less than 30g without headband and battery), waterproof, 3 stage twistie, flood beam, adjustable beam angle.



That sounds great. I have been looking for something just like that. I might want one depending on price, features etc.


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## dom (Apr 13, 2007)

Hey Zebra -Welcome to CPF
Hope you start a new thread when the availability of these is near - you'll have quite a lineup of people who would want something like that!

Cheers
Dom


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## ZebraLight (Apr 13, 2007)

dom said:


> Hey Zebra -Welcome to CPF
> Hope you start a new thread when the availability of these is near - you'll have quite a lineup of people who would want something like that!
> 
> Cheers
> Dom


 
We will start a thread in the Manufacture's corner when it's ready (next month).

George


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## zgurl (Apr 13, 2007)

ZebraLight said:


> We will start a thread in the Manufacture's corner when it's ready (next month).
> 
> George


Yesssssss, great news. Don't forget to post a sort of announcement of this manufacture's thread


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## adirondackdestroyer (Apr 13, 2007)

ZebraLight said:


> We will start a thread in the Manufacture's corner when it's ready (next month).
> 
> George


 
This sounds awesome! I have been wanting a Cree headlamp alot and am suprised that there aren't more of them out there yet. I can't wait for your product! :rock:


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## GaryF (Apr 14, 2007)

ZebraLight said:


> Zebra Lighting will be releasing a Cree based headlamp next month. Initial spec: 1AA (alkaline, nimh, lithium, 14500), aluminum body, lightweight (less than 30g without headband and battery), waterproof, 3 stage twistie, flood beam, adjustable beam angle.



Cool, That's exactly what I've been waiting for in a headlamp!


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## gunga (Apr 14, 2007)

Nice. I have a modded EOS, but this sounds wicked. AA, 14500, alloy body? I'm all over that. Hope the price is not too insane.

Sheesh, I have to stop reading this forum, can't stop buying...


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## RdlyLite (Apr 14, 2007)

ZebraLight said:


> Zebra Lighting will be releasing a Cree based headlamp next month. Initial spec: 1AA (alkaline, nimh, lithium, 14500), aluminum body, lightweight (less than 30g without headband and battery), waterproof, 3 stage twistie, flood beam, adjustable beam angle.


 Great Googa-munga! Now that is something I am interested in as well! I currently own an EOS and the hiking/camping season is upon us!


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## jar3ds (Apr 15, 2007)

ZebraLight said:


> Sorry we don't have any photos at this moment, but I can say that it's VERY small and lightweight, even for a headlamp.
> 
> There will be three levels at low around 8, med around 40 and max around 100. We may set a max over 100, but since it's a headlamp, long runtime (with very efficient boost converter) is our priority. We bought an integrating sphere to make sure all those figures correct.



Hey, I'm curious how you guys are going to allow for the 14500 LiON being that your using the boost converter? Since the voltage in (with the LiON) will be higher than the Vf on the CREE LED? Wouldn't you need to use a Buck/Boost converter similar to what HDS uses? 

Also, would the light levels change depending on the battery type used?

Thanks for any other info you can offer!


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## dom (Apr 15, 2007)

I was wondering about the lithium as well.
Do they make drivers that can cover that situation -or have to use a resistor or something?


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## ZebraLight (Apr 15, 2007)

dom said:


> I was wondering about the lithium as well.
> Do they make drivers that can cover that situation -or have to use a resistor or something?


 
The driver covers the Li-ion voltage (2.8-4.2) as well, with regulated output current, not a resistor or direct dirve type.


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## ZebraLight (Apr 15, 2007)

jar3ds said:


> Hey, I'm curious how you guys are going to allow for the 14500 LiON being that your using the boost converter? Since the voltage in (with the LiON) will be higher than the Vf on the CREE LED? Wouldn't you need to use a Buck/Boost converter similar to what HDS uses?
> 
> Also, would the light levels change depending on the battery type used?
> 
> Thanks for any other info you can offer!


 
With Li-ion, when the battery voltage is higher than the Vf, the output will still be regulated.


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## cave dave (Apr 15, 2007)

ZebraLight said:


> Sorry we don't have any photos at this moment, but I can say that it's VERY small and lightweight, even for a headlamp.
> 
> There will be three levels at low around 8, med around 40 and max around 100. We may set a max over 100, but since it's a headlamp, long runtime (with very efficient boost converter) is our priority. We bought an integrating sphere to make sure all those figures correct.


Wow, I have been waiting for something like that for years as well. Sounds like 100 lumens is higher than an 1.2-1.7v AA battery can handle. I'd be happy if the high on a NiMh was around 40 lumens. You could get 100 lumens out of a LiIon but the runtime would be short and you would need a more complicated buck-boost circuit if you expected the lower levels to work because you will go into direct drive on a LiIon with a typical boost circuit.

High should run around an hour or two. ~ 40 to 60 lumens
Med about 5 hrs. ~30 lumens
Low about 20+ hrs. ~ 8 lumens
Xtra low would be useful @ ~ 2 lumens.

I'd shoot for performance on par with the Fenix L1D CE. Also headlamps require a wide spill angle so you can see the ground at your feet. Throw is not as important in a headlamp. So keep that in mind in your design. The important thing is to design a good headlamp not make the brightest 1AA light in the world. Also for gosh sakes don't use low frequency PWM to dim the light. The strobing is annoying as hell.
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/fenix_l1dce-l2dce.htm


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## dfred (Apr 15, 2007)

cave dave said:


> Wow, I have been waiting for something like that for years as well.



I totally agree with everything cave dave said above. I have taken to dimming newer LED headlamps because the lowest setting is simply too bright for me in very dark environments.

If only three levels are possible with the switch/driver combo you're using, I'd suggest you consider producing a "long runtime" edition which has the lowest three settings he mentioned above. I predict it would be popular. I would almost certainly buy one if it was shown to be a reliable device and didn't have PWM flickering issues.

Good luck with the product.


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## colina (Apr 16, 2007)

cave dave said:


> Throw is not as important in a headlamp.


 
That depends entirely on what you are looking for in a headlamp. 

For my requirements, throw is the main issue. I am looking for something to have a longer throw than a Yukon HL with a battery pack based on AA or C sized rechargeables so that I can get a runtime of 8-10 hours. 

Hopefully the zebra will have the ability to connect to an external battery pack for extended runtime, or can be easily moded.

Can't wait to see prices? Are there any UK distributors for Zebra products?


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## ZebraLight (Apr 16, 2007)

colina said:


> That depends entirely on what you are looking for in a headlamp.
> 
> For my requirements, throw is the main issue. I am looking for something to have a longer throw than a Yukon HL with a battery pack based on AA or C sized rechargeables so that I can get a runtime of 8-10 hours.
> 
> ...


 
That model is an integrated one with no exteranl battery pack connector. What we are trying to do is to make a very small, lightweight, long runtime, floody headlamp. We will expand our product line to incude models with more throw or both throw and flood later on. Other battery options are also under considerations. 

We don't have any UK or US distributers yet.


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## ZebraLight (Apr 16, 2007)

Cave Dave,

You are right, the 100 lumens is from a 3.7v AA source. 

We will looking into the xtra low level. Thanks for your suggestions.


George


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## jar3ds (Apr 16, 2007)

colina said:


> That depends entirely on what you are looking for in a headlamp.
> 
> For my requirements, throw is the main issue. I am looking for something to have a longer throw than a Yukon HL with a battery pack based on AA or C sized rechargeables so that I can get a runtime of 8-10 hours.
> 
> ...



i would also like to know what task you use your headlamp for... i think you are in the minority with your requirements... 

it seems that most people use a headlamp for personal navigation (hence the flood)... and leave hand-held flashlights/torches for their distant target spotting... 

I don't know what this first headlamp from Zebra is called... but this seems to fit a market area that is in need for a headlamp that Zebra has described. A lot of people are frustrated at the current integrated headlamp market.. I am looking forward so much to this headlamp but i'm trying not to tell myself that its too good to be true... 

EDIT: as far as the xtra low goes... it would seem that it just all depends on the beam pattern. 8 lumens that is for the most part equally spread out over a surface would almost be perfect. However, if those 8 lumens are in the pattern of a typical output beam (reflector/optic) where the hot spot contains about 5 (most) of the those lumens (higher lux center) than the contrast would be too bright and it would be hard to preserve any low light level vision... 

For that reason I think that it does depend so much on the beam pattern. I for one use currently an EOS with a SSC LED, a Khatod optic, and a *HDS Mild diffuser*... While the mild diffuser does hinder slightly the output. It creates a beautiful perfect transition between spot and spill. Having SOME throw i feel is handy in a headlamp because for the most part what you are looking at in the center of your beam requires a little more light than the edges. However, its a hard balance because too much throw (or poor transition between hot-spot/spill) and you've ruined your beam profile. 

So personally, if I where asked how to make the best headlamp output beam profile. It would be to use a reflector with some sort of diffusion medium in front of the reflector... Whether that be a HDS Mild diffuser equivalent or what Flashlightlens.com calls their (LDF) Light Diffusion Film in their lenses (Even though I have personally never used any of them but plan to try them out soon)


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## Daniel_sk (Apr 16, 2007)

ZebraLight - The AA concept is really great (much better than my 3 AAA Petzl Tikka XP). Please don't use a PWM, that would ruin the whole thing. And as you said - long runtime is a priority (I mean - it's a 1x AA headlamp). 

Keep up in that good work, and keep us updated. I am really looking forward to this new headlamp!


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## colina (Apr 16, 2007)

jar3ds said:


> i would also like to know what task you use your headlamp for...


 
I use my headlight for night fishing. I am rock fishing on a remote coastline with no local ambient light. I need a general flood light most of the time but need a powerful spot beam when landing fish from rocks 20ft above the water. Currently use a Yukon HL but the beam does not have enough range. The general lights currently in use are 6v 10-20W halogen headlamps but these use large lead-acid or Nimh battery packs of around 10Ah capacity which are heavy!

The Fox Fury Pro III looks phenomenal but at a price.

I would have thought my requirements are quite common amongst the caving / fishing users.


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## GaryF (Apr 16, 2007)

You will get all kinds of ideas for improvement. Throw vs flood, Brightness vs runtime, Twisty vs clickie switch, different battery options, etc. My advice is to get the ZebraLight to market just as listed – I think you will sell a lot of them. Certainly I will buy one.. (Maybe I shouldn’t say that before I see the price!) You can always offer different versions later to broaden market appeal.


That said, my ideal headlamp is.... Well, it varies depending on what I’m using it for. :huh2: For example..

I’m a fisherman. Flood is what I need most, but a spot beam is useful to find the trail out. Battery and form factor don’t matter so much in this application. A clickie switch is preferred in this application for ease of activation while I’m trying to land a big catfish.

I’m a backpacker (wilderness type). Lightweight, compact design is ideal. Efficient design to maximize runtime is most important, but a bright setting is also of benefit at times. Usage is around camp or in a tent, so a flood beam is best. But a spot can be nice when things go “bump” in the night. Switch type matters very little as long as it’s a reliable design. Experience has shown external battery packs to be less reliable, as the wires can get damaged being stuffed into a pack, etc. Lithium L91 AA batteries seem to offer the best weight / energy output, and my other electrical devices also use them (camera, razor, small radio), so I strongly prefer the AA battery format. 


I’m also a traveler. Compact, efficient design and the ability to run off of common batteries is ideal, with AA preferred. The main usage is for reading or navigating a dark hallway or room. Having the battery in the lamp body is nice for reading in bed, where a battery pack on the back of the headband gets in the way. (Next trip is coincidentally to Shanghai, where ZebraLight is located)


So my ideal light for all activities would be as efficient as possible (Cree), run off a single AA battery, clickie switch, battery integrated into head, compact, lightweight, sturdy design, have selectable levels, and adjustable flood or spot beam.  I may never see this exact headlamp, but the ZebraLight promises to hit on most of my points and I’m pretty excited about it.


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## PeLu (Apr 16, 2007)

dfred said:


> I totally agree with everything cave dave said above.


 and so do I. Most headlamp uses need a fllood beam. Of course there are also some special needs sometimes. 


> I have taken to dimming newer LED headlamps because the lowest setting is simply too bright for me in very dark environments.


I had an short discussion here on CPF some time ago with Hank Moon from Petzl and treied to convince him that the levels should be spread more, meaning a lower low. I hope Zebra makes it better.


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## nzbazza (Apr 16, 2007)

GaryF said:


> I’m a backpacker (wilderness type). Lightweight, compact design is ideal. Efficient design to maximize runtime is most important, but a bright setting is also of benefit at times. Usage is around camp or in a tent, so a flood beam is best. But a spot can be nice when things go “bump” in the night. Switch type matters very little as long as it’s a reliable design. Experience has shown external battery packs to be less reliable, as the wires can get damaged being stuffed into a pack, etc. Lithium L91 AA batteries seem to offer the best weight / energy output, and my other electrical devices also use them (camera, razor, small radio), so I strongly prefer the AA battery format.
> 
> 
> So my ideal light for all activities would be as efficient as possible (Cree), run off a single AA battery, clickie switch, battery integrated into head, compact, lightweight, sturdy design, have selectable levels, and adjustable flood or spot beam.  I may never see this exact headlamp, but the ZebraLight promises to hit on most of my points and I’m pretty excited about it.



+1 to that!!!!

Zebralight, the new headlamp sounds fantastic. Can't wait to see see it in the flesh (so to speak)!!!


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## Burgess (Apr 17, 2007)

I am very interested in these headlamps, as well.


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## DevL (Apr 19, 2007)

I was cruising this forum to ask this question when I cam upon this thread...

Is there a headlamp that features the following features?

1 or 2 AA batteries
All integrated in one unit at front of head
Cree or Seoul P4
Regulated
Waterproof
Wide flood
Multiple brightness settings

I bet the thing ends up being PWM because of the very low levels it will run at and the need for small form factor. I only care if it produces flickering I can see or not. Dont want to see flickering.

Other features I would LIKE but could easily do without would be:

Some way to have spot or flood (secondary LEDs, diffuser, etc)
No integrated top strap to reduce bulk (perhaps optional top strap)
Curved mounting plate so it fits the head better
Some method to prevent accidental activation
Battery level LED (green, yellow, red)

Please make it not so bright you cannot read with it in the tent on low.

This light looks like the answer to my prayers!!!


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## Daniel_sk (Apr 19, 2007)

DevL said:


> Other features I would LIKE but could easily do without would be:
> 
> Some way to have spot or flood (secondary LEDs, diffuser, etc)
> No integrated top strap to reduce bulk (perhaps optional top strap)
> ...


 
Check out Petzl Tikka XP - it has a sliding diffuser lens (a great feature), no top strap, fits the head really good and it shows battery levels (a small led on the side). But it doesn't have a Cree Led and isn't really wateproof (well it will withstand rain but you probably can't immerse it in water). And it isn't regulated.
I wish Petzl would update the Tikka to a Cree Led...

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/petzl_tikka_xp.htm


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## DevL (Apr 19, 2007)

I looked a the Tikka and Tactikka and was not impressed. It is not AA batteries either. Nice form factor but that is it. Less than half of my "must haves" and half the "would be nice" features.


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## etc (Apr 20, 2007)

Incredibly, Princeton Tec Apex is obsolete. My Princeton Tec Yukon HL, a 1W unit has been obsolete for a while, a year at least? 

I surely wish to see newer LED (Cree) Headlamps.


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## gunga (May 12, 2007)

Just wanted to give this a bump to see if zebralight has any news on the cool 
new headlamp?


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## ZebraLight (May 12, 2007)

We are at the final stage of the product design and beginning of the production (component sourcing, tooling, etc.)

We will annouce the final spec before the end of this month and if everything goes as planned, start shipping next month.


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## cave dave (May 12, 2007)

Daniel_sk said:


> Check out Petzl Tikka XP - it has a sliding diffuser lens (a great feature), no top strap, fits the head really good and it shows battery levels (a small led on the side). But it doesn't have a Cree Led and isn't really wateproof (well it will withstand rain but you probably can't immerse it in water). And it isn't regulated.
> I wish Petzl would update the Tikka to a Cree Led...


I modded a XP with a SSC P4 and it's brighter but it still kinda sucks, I think the drive current must be really low. It's pretty awesome on boost, but you have to hold the button down. The EOS with a reflector and a Lux 3 had a much nicer and useful beam. The EOS with a P4 and a reflector blows it away. 
BTW the XP does have o-rings all the way around and you can rinse it off in a sink and it won't get wet inside. Better than many PT Apexs out there which don't seem all that waterproof.


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## jar3ds (May 13, 2007)

ZebraLight said:


> We are at the final stage of the product design and beginning of the production (component sourcing, tooling, etc.)
> 
> We will annouce the final spec before the end of this month and if everything goes as planned, start shipping next month.



excellent! Keep us posted! I'm trying not to get my hopes up with the Zebra Headlamp because there have been a lot of pipe dreams here on candle power forums... but man... if it comes true... how awesome this will be


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## nzbazza (May 13, 2007)

jar3ds said:


> excellent! Keep us posted! I'm trying not to get my hopes up with the Zebra Headlamp because there have been a lot of pipe dreams here on candle power forums... but man... if it comes true... how awesome this will be



+1 to that. Nevertheless I've suspended all headlamp purchases until the zebralight is available.


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## glockboy (May 13, 2007)




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## GaryF (May 14, 2007)

This just kills me sitting in Shanghai on holiday. Somewhere around here they are busy working on my new headlamp. So close yet so far away, lol.


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## moonfish (May 14, 2007)

I am waiting for the super headlamps to be released also. I've been looking for the perfect candidate to put a cree in but a lesson I learned from the EOS project is that I want massive flood in every direction but up. I think the cree would have to be very close to or protruding from the case to do that. I tried the EOS without any reflector and it was very mellow flood but obviously no range at all. Unless I glue a cree to each side of the headlamp's case, I don't see how I can get what I want. 

It is all for catfishing.


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## GaryF (May 15, 2007)

moonfish said:


> It is all for catfishing.


 
Strangely enough, that is my main use as well. I'm an avid catfisherman on the big rivers in the Kansas City area.


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## PhantomPhoton (May 16, 2007)

I too am definitely searching the market for a nice Cree or SCC headlamp. I haven't found anything worth modding yet so the wait continues.


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## PeLu (May 16, 2007)

PhantomPhoton said:


> I too am definitely searching the market for a nice Cree or SCC headlamp.


The Scurion is now ready and available. Just to state it.


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## scottaw (May 17, 2007)

Ok, back to the original, its already been daid, but cpfers are so ahead of the game you have to wait for companies to play catch-up. Product development takes some serious time, new stuff, relibility issues, packaging, distribution, etc. Don't worry, someone is building one right now. 
Secondly....nighttime kayak racing?!?! are you freaking nuts? I've only kayaked up to a rough class 3, but i sure as hell wouldn't do it at night. You my friend have giant cojones! Good luck w/ that,


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## Nereus (May 17, 2007)

I have modded my Petzl Myo with seoul P4. You can find pictured tutorial here.

-N


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## River Runner (May 17, 2007)

scottaw,

It's not quite as impressive as you think. This is relatively flat water paddling. There is a race from Central Texas to the coast each year called the Texas Water Safari. It's a 260 mile non-stop race from San Marcos to Seadrift. All of the significant rapids are completed on the first day before the sun goes down, and there aren't any really tough rapids anyway - probably only a couple or three capable of tearing up people and equipment. Of course, there are several dams that cannot be run. I need a bright enough light to negotiate minor rapids and identify upcoming dams. The winners will be 6 member teams. I'm wanting to race in the solo division, but am not sure it's going to happen this year, as conflicts with my 12yo daughter's sports have arisen.

However, I still want a brighter, more efficient headlamp for our kayak camping trips. I Seoul modded my Myo XP, and that was a major improvement. I'd still like to have something designed from the ground up for the new emitters.

RR


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## scottaw (May 17, 2007)

Ok cool, still a little crazy paddlin at night, but i could see a nice lake night paddle being an awesome trip. This may be a little out of this forum, but have you thought of mounting a "headlight" on your boat? Maybe a light that's a bit heavy for headwear, but could give you some serious lumens out the front, tie it on top of a deckbag or something? You could have cree, seoul, or even HID.


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