# Harder than HAIII?



## I came to the light... (Jul 16, 2008)

Hard annodizing, or type III annodizing, seems to be the standard for a tough coating in high-quality flashlights. However, it isn't quite as tough as I'd like. My L0D is chipped up after a month of fairly gentle EDC, and a single drop onto concrete has a good chance of putting another chip into any HAIII flashlight. However, I haven't seen anything better. My question is - is there a practical flashlight coating that's harder than HAIII? If you can show me a flashlight with a better coating I'd love that, but any info on possibilities would help too. Thanks for reading


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## Jarl (Jul 16, 2008)

As you pointed out, HA, or type III, (HAIII doesn't exist) seems to be the best. HA is defined as a coating of something or other more than xx microns thick- I'm sure someone will come along with the correct numbers, I think it's 40.

So *random company* can make a light with a coating 41 microns thick and call it HA. Fair enough. However, *random company 2* can make a coating 100 microns thick, and it'll still only be type III. Generally, fenix tends to be slightly thinner coatings while still in HA territory, hence why your L0D isn't looking so good.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 16, 2008)

I think it is the process that makes the difference between HA and type II anodize. Also, it is not layers that define differences, and HA may be thinner than type II. Just thinking out loud, and trying to recall what I have read.

Bill


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## I came to the light... (Jul 16, 2008)

I'm pretty sure type II and III annodizing are the same formula, but different thicknesses, and type I is completely different. 

Also, HAIII is a proper term, just repetitive. I use it because it gets the point across no matter what you're used to seeing and it's short. :shrug:

While I'm sure hardness varies slightly between brands, models, and individual lights, I doubt the difference is significant. If a company made a HAIII coating twice as hard, or even 1.1x as hard as the minimal HAIII coating, they would advertise it. so while Fenix may be just barely making the cut, I doubt even SF would put on a significantly harder coating and not mention it. After all, if nobody knows about it, it won't increase sales, while still increasing cost. 

Really what I'm looking for is a different coating entirely. Something that isn't just thicker, but stronger. But thanks for the input so far


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## olrac (Jul 16, 2008)

That's why I like bare metal, any scuffs or scrape are easily polished out and polished Aluminum is as sexy as it gets (or SS and TI)


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## tricker (Jul 16, 2008)

AlTiN....its the third light from the left, the light is a draco.....the coatings that are available on drilling or milling bit tips can be applied to lights....pretty much the toughest closest to production light i can think of

some info on possibilities

http://www.richterprecision.com/PVD_CVD_coating_technical_data.htm


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## Triple A (Jul 16, 2008)

tricker said:


> AlTiN....its the third light from the left, the light is a draco.....the coatings that are available on drilling or milling bit tips can be applied to lights....pretty much the toughest closest to production light i can think of


 
Is this like the titanium nitride coating used on knives? That light looks VERY cool, by the way.


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## tricker (Jul 16, 2008)

Triple A said:


> Is this like the titanium nitride coating used on knives? That light looks VERY cool, by the way.



a little thicker and harder, but similar


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## Chronos (Jul 16, 2008)

I'm a bit of a novice, but I believe AlTiN coating can only be applied to titanium parts? You'll see a few AlTiN coated titanium McGizmos now and then... increases the rockwell hardness to 60+

Perhaps a diamond coating is harder than HA, but again not sure if it can be applied to aluminum, though I do not see why not.


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## I came to the light... (Jul 16, 2008)

thanks for the info, especially tricker. I'm glad to see that there is something better 

I should have anticipated this problem, but I'll fix it now. I realize it's pretty stupid asking for all possibilities. So I'll just say, can anybody link me to a light currently available with a coating harder/better than HAIII? Thank you


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## Ty_Bower (Jul 16, 2008)

You can make the coating as hard as you like. The aluminum underneath is still soft, and will deform upon impact. If you have a hard coating over top a soft substrate, you've got a recipe for chipping.

Start with a bare aluminum light, and apply a coating like Duracoat. It has some flexibility to it, and will stand up to a fair amount of abuse. Someone around here coating a whole boatload of his lights with the stuff (I remember his U2) and posted lots of nice looking pictures.


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## Marduke (Jul 16, 2008)

I wonder how Hafnium Carbide would work as a coating. Very $$$, but you could go swimming in molten lava and your light would still be fine.


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## BobDeLaLuz (Jul 16, 2008)

Chronos said:


> I'm a bit of a novice, but I believe AlTiN coating can only be applied to titanium parts? You'll see a few AlTiN coated titanium McGizmos now and then... increases the rockwell hardness to 60+
> 
> Perhaps a diamond coating is harder than HA, but again not sure if it can be applied to aluminum, though I do not see why not.



I've only had experience with TiN (titanium nitride) many years ago when we first became aware of it, but if I remember correctly TiN is almost as hard as AlTiN and TiAiN and we were able to get the coating factory to apply it to aluminum.

Here is the only reference I found on the web:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j6u7q11516301272/


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## AvidHiker (Jul 16, 2008)

AFAIK, AlTiN can be applied to most metals, same with regular old TiN (the gold color commonly seen on steel drill bits). I believe this is definitely harder than aluminum oxide (hard anodize). 

There is also CVD diamond, a synthetic diamond that's applied using a very advanced process (chemical vapor deposition) and none too cheap (Surefire has used it as a coating on their Delta folding knife along with some type of tungsten carbide). WC-Co (tungsten carbide-cobalt) is a very hard metal matrix composite coating (ceramic-reinforced cobalt) commonly used on tools and applied by a thermal spray process.

So, I think the answer is yes, there are planty of harder coatings out there. As far as flashlights go, there don't seem to be many alternatives to type III anodize (AlTiN and a couple others that I can't recall specifically, but these are rare). But, as others have stated, not all HA is created equal, and truly good HA is pretty damn tough. It also helps to go with a light color (NOT black) as dings don't show as easily.


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## BobDeLaLuz (Jul 16, 2008)

I came to the light... said:


> Hard annodizing, or type III annodizing, seems to be the standard for a tough coating in high-quality flashlights. However, it isn't quite as tough as I'd like. My L0D is chipped up after a month of fairly gentle EDC, and a single drop onto concrete has a good chance of putting another chip into any HAIII flashlight. However, I haven't seen anything better. My question is - is there a practical flashlight coating that's harder than HAIII? If you can show me a flashlight with a better coating I'd love that, but any info on possibilities would help too. Thanks for reading



We're discussing coatings but regardless of how hard a costing is, if the underlying material is still soft (Aluminum) then it can still dent and if the dent is deep enough the coating can crack (or look like a scratch).

It sounds like the scratches really bother you so a custom light made of solid Steel alloy (properly alloyed with Titanium and Vanadium) would make it virtually indestructible in typical flashlight applications (albeit a bit heavier). Now if we can only get someone to volunteer to forge some billets of this material, then things could get interesting.


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## precisionworks (Jul 16, 2008)

> You can make the coating as hard as you like. The aluminum underneath is still soft, and will deform upon impact. If you have a hard coating over top a soft substrate, you've got a recipe for chipping.


+1

You have to have a hard substrate, like Ti, or even the highest HRc coating will simply have plastic deformation as the substrate gives under load.

Hard chrome, in relative terms, runs 68-70 HRc, is often used in industry for extreme wear parts. But the typical hard chrome plate is only .020 to .050 (although it can be applied more heavily). Put it over butter soft Al & you're back to square one.

My 'work' lights are both Ti ... my after work lights are Hardcoat Al. In a clean pocket without keys, coins or change, they look new forever. If that isn't an option, consider Ti.



> a custom light made of solid Steel alloy


Good idea ... plate it inside & out with hard chrome & you'd have a nice light. No need to have something special forged, when you can buy 4140HT (aka 4140 prehard) from all the online metal suppliers, and it isn't expensive.

The real problem is that this becomes a do-it-yourself project. All the high end light makers are already working in Ti, and I'd be shocked if even one would make a steel light for you. You can have a small machine shop make a one-off, I'm guessing in the $200 to $300 range for just one, less as quantity goes up. Much cheaper to buy a Ti light from McGizmo, Muyshondt, or a Surefire Titan ... only $400 to $500 for one of those including the complete head, ready to run.

Aluminum is popular because it doesn't rust & machine cycle times are short, plus tool life is long. Ti less so, as material is expensive, slow cycle times, short tooling life, etc.

Ti is the quick & easy (and elegant) answer. Once you get over the sticker shock, you'll want more & more:twothumbs


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## chimo (Jul 16, 2008)

+2



Ty_Bower said:


> You can make the coating as hard as you like. The aluminum underneath is still soft, and will deform upon impact. If you have a hard coating over top a soft substrate, you've got a recipe for chipping.


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## Art Vandelay (Jul 16, 2008)

Durability is more important. Nickle or Chrome would be good.

Raw aluminum is also good because you can just buff out any dings.


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## jaybiz32 (Jul 16, 2008)

Anyone have any links to machine shops that are easy to work with and will one off custom maglite coatings?


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## precisionworks (Jul 16, 2008)

Most shops will do a single part or piece, but the per part charge is often the same for one or for one hundred. Set up time is usually the killer. You might ask one of the guys like Mac, who does a ton of custom work, if he could include your light with a batch of his.


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## tricker (Jul 16, 2008)

modamag would be another guy to talk to.....he's had a 24k gold mag done before, and has all other kinds of examples....diamond, TiCn, AlTiN, chrome, etc.......these may have been one-offs but he knows the people to talk too


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Jul 16, 2008)

A coating I've found to be very durable is the professional spray-in truck bedliner. There are several places around me that will coat a light for little or nothing, and the mags/dorcy's I've had coated have held up better than any annodizing I've yet seen. Just don't put it on a light that puts out a lot of heat, as it insulates quite a bit too.


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## I came to the light... (Jul 18, 2008)

Thanks for the replies everybody. I realize this really isn't in my league - I've probably put less into flashlights total than it would cost to get a single light with a significantly better finish than HAIII. It sounds like just the coating won't really help - to get a much better finish I'd need to use something harder than aluminum, probably titanium. But still, just out of curiosity, any guess as to how much an AlTiN coating on a 4" flashlight would cost?

I have noticed bare metal flashlights before, and I'll probably end up getting one sometime soon. However, there is a difference between indestructable and repairable...

Again, thanks for the informative replies. This is one of the few threads I've posted that has been immediatly flooded with intelligent replies. :thumbsup:


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## Marduke (Jul 18, 2008)

Bare metal might be what you're actually looking for. When they do get scratched up, they can be buffed out without too much trouble to look like new. The only one I have is a 1xAAA stainless one from DX that looks pretty sharp. It's polished and has a good feel and weight to it. (the main pic is not correct on the site, the other pics are however)


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## Thujone (Jul 18, 2008)

I came to the light... said:


> My L0D is chipped up after a month of fairly gentle EDC



I am not any where near convinced that the black fenix finish is HAIII.. My L0Pse looked like it had been through a war after 3 months of pocket carry. I replaced it with a LF2 and after 14 months in the same capacity it looks better than the L0Pse did after a week.


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## precisionworks (Jul 18, 2008)

Stainless steel (SS) is the lowest cost route to a durable light. Much harder than Al, although softer than Ti. Should hold up well.


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## VanIsleDSM (Jul 18, 2008)

What type of titanium is harder than stainless?

Because most types of stainless are harder than titanium, and conduct heat better too. I always just figured Ti was for the sake of having Ti, like wearing gold around your neck instead of bronze.

15Cr-5Ni Stainless for example, puts Grade 5 annealed Ti to shame for hardness and heat transfer.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 18, 2008)

Apparently good heat treated Ti only makes it into the middle 40's Rockwell. See here, http://www.finishing.com/228/59.shtml for some into on Ti and knifes.

Ti has better qualities than steel and that is strength and corrosion resistance. Ti makes a good crow bar, and a locking liner on a knife, and is beautiful when polished, and is awesome when done up in Damascus.

Bill


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## RyanA (Jul 18, 2008)

Anyone know how the hardness of chromoly steel rates?


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## precisionworks (Jul 18, 2008)

> hardness of chromoly steel


Not too high, but toughness is the main reason for CrMo. Hardness (HRc) is dependent on carbon content, the reason that most tool steels have at least 100 carbon points (1.00% carbon content). CrMo varies ... 4130 has only 30 points, 4140 has 40, etc.

4140 Prehard (aka 4140 heat treat & annealed) runs 30-34 HRc. Compare that to W1 tool steel (roughly 100 points of carbon) which easily hits 68 HRc when brought to red heat & plunged into cold water. But hardened W1 lacks the toughness of 4140 Prehard.



> What type of titanium is harder than stainless?


The better question is which Ti alloy is harder than which SS alloy

The most common Ti commercially used in the world is Ti 6-4 (Ti 6Al-4V). The most common SS is 304. 304 runs around 30HRc and Ti 6-4 is almost the same, 32HRc. Instead of hardness, I should have emphasized toughness & corrosion resistance for Ti. Type 304 SS is rust resistant, but I have seen many "stainless" items badly rusted.


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## RyanA (Jul 18, 2008)

Hmmm... I've been looking at tool steels for kicks (actually machining a light is way over my head) I'd imagine it's very expensive to get tool steel machined. I also wonder about electrical conductivity, probably not as conductive as Al or Ti?

Took a peek at this, 
http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=4690&step=4&showunits=inches&id=183&top_cat=131
 thought about what a tool steel 6p light would be like.

But holy $600 for 3 feet.:mecry:


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## greenLED (Jul 18, 2008)

Ty_Bower said:


> You can make the coating as hard as you like. The aluminum underneath is still soft, and will deform upon impact. If you have a hard coating over top a soft substrate, you've got a recipe for chipping.


Bingo!
HA is for abrasion resistance, not impact resistance.


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## VanIsleDSM (Jul 18, 2008)

S15500 (15Cr-5Ni) Stainless has a rockwell C rating of 44.2, also conducts heat and electricity better than double Titanium Ti-6Al-4V (Grade 5) with a rockwell C of 36 (if it's annealed).


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## precisionworks (Jul 18, 2008)

> I'd imagine it's very expensive to get tool steel machined


Many tool steels have a high machinability index. All the W (water hardening) tool steels are a breeze.

Stainless steels, as a class, are tougher than many tool steels, and have a lower machinability rating (both chrome & nickel are tough), but some SS like 416 has sulphur added for easy machining.

Most machinists, self included, feel that Ti is more difficult than most other materials. Although not extremely hard, the high toughness resists the seperation of chips or curls ... high heat is generated, which causes plastic deformation of the tool cutting edge unless heavy flood coolant is used (ask Mirage Man for the before & after results).

W1 drill rod isn't too expensive. MetalsDepot dot com shows 36" of W1 (1.062" diameter) for $96.76 ... probably get five lights out of that, or about $20 per light.

FWIW, four feet of 6061-T6 (1.125 diameter) is $33.68.

Ti 6-4 ... just a bit higher ... *6" long*, 1.100" diameter, $53 on eBay

Most machinists save the Ti chips & resell them. On a light made from solid bar, 90%+ goes into the chip bin. If you can find near net tubing, the loss is less.


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## RyanA (Jul 18, 2008)

S15550
Very nice. $70 a foot to boot.


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## RyanA (Jul 18, 2008)

precisionworks said:


> Many tool steels have a high machinability index. All the W (water hardening) tool steels are a breeze.
> 
> Stainless steels, as a class, are tougher than many tool steels, and have a lower machinability rating (both chrome & nickel are tough), but some SS like 416 has sulphur added for easy machining.
> 
> ...



Wow, This is awesome. Very informative. Thanks for the answers!
Is there a way to reproduce a standard 6p part in a sort of mimeograph form? I think I've seen lathes with a sort of armature, but would something like that work with metals of varying densities?:huh:


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## HarryN (Jul 24, 2008)

If you have access to "really good" machining tools as well as the right experience, it is not too hard to machine various steels and Ti - but - most people don't have this, nor the patience to really learn to do this properly. A steel flashlight feels heavy really fast. Ti is fun, but out of most people's price range.

An alternative that I use is 7050 T6 and 7075 T6 Al alloys. These are the "real" aircraft alloys, not the normal 6061 which is often called "aircraft aluminum." The properties rival modest steels for strength and hardness, while retaining the low weight and much of the corrosion resistance of Al. IMHO, it is easier to machine than 6061 T6 because it makes nicer chips and is less gummy as well.

Downside - they are not intended for anodizing, so either bare or another coating is needed.

I EDC a small (bare Al) light that I made (in my sig line) several years ago - still looks pretty new, just a tad more polished, but not much. It has been dropped plenty and no ill effects, and the walls are pretty thin.


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## VanIsleDSM (Jul 24, 2008)

Hi HarryN, 

Have you ever tried using 7068? It's the hardest, and strongest aluminum available as far as I know.

Here's some info from matweb:

Ti-6Al-4V (Grade 5), annealed:

Hardness, Brinell: 334
Tensile Strength, Ultimate: 138,000psi
Tensile Strength, Yield: 128,000psi
Shear Strength : 78,900psi




7068 T6, T6511

Hardness, Brinell: 190 
Tensile Strength, Ultimate: 103,000
Tensile Strength, Yield: 99,100
Shear Strength : 52,900 




7075-T651

Hardness, Brinell: 150
Tensile Strength, Ultimate: 83,000
Tensile Strength, Yield: 73,000
Shear Strength : 48,000




6061-T651

Hardness, Brinell: 95
Tensile Strength, Ultimate: 45,000
Tensile Strength, Yield: 40,000
Shear Strength : 30,000

Only place I know where to find the stuff though is McMaster, and they won't ship to Canada. I notice you're pretty close to me, wanna split a 6' length of 1.25" to try? I'll obviously pay the extra shipping to me  $150 for 6', $87 for 3'


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## HarryN (Jul 25, 2008)

VanIsleDSM - Thanks for pointing out that alloy. I noticed that the fracture toughness of that alloy under some conditions is about 1/2 of 7075, which is typical of the 7xxx series - toughness decreases with increasing hardness and tensile strength.

I actually don't know if this is significant or not. :thinking:

My lights are typically not round, as I usually just make side by sides when I am in that mode. Until I get some other things caught up in my life, I am just reading about lights right now.

If you want, I am happy to help you get a piece of that alloy from McMaster, no problem, but I am not really wanting another thing to spend money on right now. Too many projects already. 

Then again, what I would really like to get ahold of, is some Al alloy with Sc (scandium) in it. S and W makes a 1911 from it, and it is strong AND tough. :twothumbs 

Send me a pm and we can work out details if you are interested.

Thanks

Harry


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## Juggernaut (Jul 27, 2008)

VanIsleDSM said:


> Hi HarryN,
> 
> Have you ever tried using 7068? It's the hardest, and strongest aluminum available as far as I know.
> 
> ...


 
I may be wrong here but I would think that MIL-I-45208A Aluminum would be harder than 7068, well it is the strongest ballistic variance of Al that I have come by so far. 
Any ways I +2:thumbsup: Chrome, when a good thick layer of Chrome is applied to steel it’s pretty much invincible “like on Big beam lights“. Nothing like pulling out some steel wool to shine up you light:twothumbs.


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## HarryN (Aug 4, 2008)

Hi Juggernaut,

I am having difficulty finding useful results searching under that spec number. Is there any chance that that spec is a generic Al processing spec independent of the alloy ? I might be just missing the boat here.

Thanks


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## Marduke (Aug 4, 2008)

MIL-I-45208A is a inspection standard, not an material designation.


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