# 742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II MC-E review added



## neoseikan (Feb 4, 2009)

_Closed as a violation of advertising policy_



http://neo-fab.com/

Recently we have the Legion II SST-50 version. With a 4.5A output current, it's much brighter than Legion II Standard MC-E version.
What's next? I believe it's time to get a higher over-all efficiency.

====================== History ======================


I've always wanted to make a light for myself, and after I had got the idea about Legion II, I knew the time had come to make a perfect light.
Basic ideas of Legion II is from Legion I & Spartanian II. Legion I was produced by one of my friend as a LED version of Surefire M6, and a regulation resistance was added in the tailcap to control the brightness stepless. Spartanian II was a little EDC light, with a ring switch, which look like Surefire U2, but really different. The switch design of Spartanian II was beyond Surefire's patents. With a Surefire U2, you can not turn the light on and then level UP/DOWN with the same finger, but with Spartanian II you can. *A real "single-finger" multi-level flashlight*. The UI is even more useful for a heavy light like Legion II.

There were some bugs in my past design, for example, Spartanian II' s control ring was not smooth enough, or it rattles sometime. People could not change the spring easily too. So, I thought Legion II should be a light away from these problems.

We made it. *We catched the bugs, and drove them away*. The control ring, supported by new Teflon bearings, are much smoother than old ones. *"Switch 'feel' is absolutely wonderful, I want to say awesome."* -- By a reviewer. The spring is stronger and can be replaced by users.

We designed a brand new driver for Legion II. The base circuit board is not a double layer PCB, but a four layer PCB. Nobody ever did. The feedback loop is designed very carefully and regardless of the cost. To get the precise regulation, we choose 0.007 ohm resistors from Vishay/Dale. Nobody ever did. Finally, we got a 27mm driver, without overlapping. In the lab, we got some data about the efficiency, nobody ever did.






We decided to use 3X18650 for Legion II, the question is: should there be a battery holder? It's not difficult, but to fit a battery holder for 3X18650, the diameter of tube will be larger and larger. For example, Ultrafire just released their WF-1300L, its housing diameter is 48mm. Legion II followed another way. The tube is the holder. We also designed a brand new tailcap for it. Nobody ever did.






























Jetbeam M1X: left ; Legion II: right.





LEGION 2 with SMO reflector




LEGION 2 with SMO reflector

























*The Specs*

* Powerful, Precise, Reliable Driver. ( We use 0.007 ohm resistors from Vishay/Dale. )
* Current Up to 3000mA.
* Longer Runtime Than Any Competitor In The Class.
* Best Current Regulation At Any Level, Without Audiable Noise.
* Reverse Voltage Protection
* 5 Exponential Levels.
* Thumb Control Without Strain On The Wrist.
* Revolutionary UI, The Easiest Way To Level Up/Down.
* Quick Access to Any 2 Default Levels.
* Built-in Battery Gauge.
* Over-discharge protection.
* Built-in Battery Holder.
* Ultimate Thermal Management.
* Custom Hi-End Parts. * B270 Multi-layer AR Coated Lens With 99.5% Transparence
* ALCOA 7075-T651
* CNC Machining
* TYPE III Hard Anodizing​Before the professional 3rd party review, there is some test result from myself.

Sample B.

Output: 
2.9A(full distance)

*Runtime with 3*Ultrafire unprotected 18650 cells:
2hours and 4 minutes.*

With the built-in battery gauge, we can see how the cells work:

level6 (full)->level5 : About 35mins.
level5 (good)->level4: About 35mins.
level4 (fair)->level3: About 25mins.
level3 (low)->level2: About 15mins.
level2 (quite low)->Warning->level1->Auto OFF: 10mins.

When the light is OFF, you can still turn it on for emergency. At lower brightness level, the cells can still provide some energy. For example, when the light shut down at MAX level, turn it on, and switch to the lowest level (about 400mA), then use the gauge, the gauge level might be level 4 (fair).

But I recommend charging the cells when the gauge is at level 3.

Runtime from wbp





*L1 = 98 lumens, L2 = 157, L3 = 264, L4 = 456, L5 = 742.*


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## Gunner12 (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

NICE!

I'm glad to see that the light turned out well.

Considering the reflector diameter, that's a pretty narrow beam. How far away was the light from the books?

That's the prototype right?


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## neoseikan (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



Gunner12 said:


> NICE!
> 
> I'm glad to see that the light turned out well.
> 
> ...



It's the sample to WBP and other people is U.S.
More sample will be assembled later.
And the production version are right there waiting for order&assembly.

This one is assembled by our engineer kurapica, a left-hander, so the UI is mirrored.

The beamshot on books is taken at 1m.


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## evenchaos (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

:kewlpics:


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

*BEAUTIFUL!! :thumbsup:*


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## copperfox (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

Machining looks just perfect. What cells does this take?


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



copperfox said:


> Machining looks just perfect. What cells does this take?


3x18650, side-by-side.


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## richardcpf (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

Does thumb control refers to twist action to control brightness? I like the fins, hope they are not too sharp at the edges...


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## neoseikan (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



richardcpf said:


> Does thumb control refers to twist action to control brightness? I like the fins, hope they are not too sharp at the edges...


Twist, not the whole head, but the control ring between the two golden-black circles. The fins are not sharp at all.


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## Ryanrpm (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

I take it the fins also act as a heat sink to remove heat from the LED?

BTW, what is the asking price?


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## evenchaos (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

After a hour of drooling and finally coming to my senses, forgot to ask:
Is the emitter upgradeable i.e. mounted on some pill/module that can be swapped?


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## Kurapica (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



neoseikan said:


> It's the sample to WBP and other people is U.S.
> More sample will be assembled later.
> And the production version are right there waiting for order&assembly.
> 
> ...



Emm....Sorry for the UI. The next sample will be a right-hand version


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## neoseikan (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



evenchaos said:


> After a hour of drooling and finally coming to my senses, forgot to ask:
> Is the emitter upgradeable i.e. mounted on some pill/module that can be swapped?



There isn't a pill/module, but it won't be too hard to change the LED by yourself.


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## PhantomPhoton (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

That's absolutely beautiful. 

Now... PLEASE, *PLEASE*, *PLEASE* be sure and make them available with warm or neutral white MC-E emitters! The loss of brightness from stepping back (one step) from M to K bin is absolutely worth the warmer tint, especially for outdoors applications.
I can't stress this point enough.


:bow:


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



Kurapica said:


> Emm....Sorry for the UI. The next sample will be a right-hand version


Hey! I'm a leftie too, so keep it that way... Or at least make it an option.


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## Kurapica (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Hey! I'm a leftie too, so keep it that way... Or at least make it an option.



That will be sure an option if you noted when ordering it.

Viva La Leftie~~~!


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## kramer5150 (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

Wow nice!! Great looking light.

I haven't heard anyone mention vishay/dale yet on this forum. They are very popular resistors in DIY audio/hi fi forums.

Congrats on a great looking design.


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## hyperloop (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

how much???

WHEN???

Soon? Please?


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## YourTime (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



hyperloop said:


> how much???
> 
> WHEN???
> 
> Soon? Please?



The price is twice as much compare to M1X.:green:

and it's not twice as bright and not twice as throw ;(


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## PhantomPhoton (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



YourTime said:


> The price is twice as much compare to M1X.:green:
> 
> and it's not twice as bright and not twice as throw ;(



High quality isn't for everyone.  All kidding aside though...
Honestly it's the better battery configuration and better UI that have me interested. 
Plus I have a chance of convincing Neo to make it with a good emitter instead of one of those mostly blue ones.  

Twice the brightness won't visually be much different. Besides you can get twice the brightness of the M1X for less than the M1X from Elektrolumens. Twice the throw isn't going to happen unless you get a much much larger reflector (5" or more)... the laws of physics suck don't they.


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## hyperloop (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



PhantomPhoton said:


> High quality isn't for everyone.  All kidding aside though...
> Honestly it's the better battery configuration and better UI that have me interested.
> Plus I have a chance of convincing Neo to make it with a good emitter instead of one of those mostly blue ones.
> 
> Twice the brightness won't visually be much different. Besides you can get twice the brightness of the M1X for less than the M1X from Elektrolumens. Twice the throw isn't going to happen unless you get a much much larger reflector (5" or more)... the laws of physics suck don't they.


 
Exactly!


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

Neoseikan and Kurapica congrats on getting this together seems like this will compete well if not better than its competitors,longer run times,5 levels,unique UI and the battery layout.

It looks visually brighter than the M1X,more beam shots wouldn't go a miss though!


I must say however the flats on the head would have looked better like the one in the cad drawing and would have acted better with anti rolling IMHO






That said it looks like you pulled it off well done on that,it sure is one to watch out for nice job :thumbsup:


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## electric sheep (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

Love it!!!!!! Very interested in one shipped to UK. I have plenty of 18650's and much prefer the layout than end to end. Quality looks from the pictures and if it is matched in the hand then price will be worth it.


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## Jarl (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

Nice. But recently spent all my money on bike parts


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## Christoph (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*


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## jankj (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

Impressive design - I am seriously tempted to break my promise of not buying high-end flashlights. 

Any thoughts how robust this switch is in sub-zero temperatures? The issue here is water that trickles into and freezes in places where ice may impede operation. 

Brutal, but simple test: Put the light in water, operate the switch for a while under water (so that water penetrates everywhere it can). Then take the light out of the water and put it in the freezer for an hour. Can you still turn the switch - preferably without damaging the o-rings?


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## neoseikan (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



jankj said:


> Impressive design - I am seriously tempted to break my promise of not buying high-end flashlights.
> 
> Any thoughts how robust this switch is in sub-zero temperatures? The issue here is water that trickles into and freezes in places where ice may impede operation.
> 
> Brutal, but simple test: Put the light in water, operate the switch for a while under water (so that water penetrates everywhere it can). Then take the light out of the water and put it in the freezer for an hour. Can you still turn the switch - preferably without damaging the o-rings?



Hi. There isn't O-rings on the switch ring. O-ring will be used between the head and the tube. You won't need to operate that.


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

Neo can you tell us what power that proto is set at it seems when you look more closer the L2 has brighter spill, but its a hard call to say if one has the brighter hot spot.Maybe you could take more beam shots at say 5 meters :twothumbs


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## neoseikan (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



TITAN1833 said:


> Neo can you tell us what power that proto is set at it seems when you look more closer the L2 has brighter spill, but its a hard call to say if one has the brighter hot spot.Maybe you could take more beam shots at say 5 meters :twothumbs



Hi. Titan. It's 3A. And I added 2 outdoor beamshots.
The first one is taken at about 20 meters.
The second one is about 5 meters.


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Thanks Neo the 20 meter L2 shot is impressive


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

This is going to be my next acquisition for sure!

I hope see the Legion II at Lighthound ASAP...


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## AardvarkSagus (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

Stunning. Absolutely stunning. I'm not terribly fond of the mid-range donut but at distance and up close it seems to be gone. Interesting. Can't wait to see this one more.


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## ichoderso (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



neoseikan said:


> Hi. Titan. It's 3A. And I added 2 outdoor beamshots.
> The first one is taken at about 20 meters.
> The second one is about 5 meters.



Hi Neo, The exposure time and F-Number from your 20m beamshots are different. Please can you make Beamshots with fixed camera settings??

Jens


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## neoseikan (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



ichoderso said:


> Hi Neo, The exposure time and F-Number from your 20m beamshots are different. Please can you make Beamshots with fixed camera settings??
> 
> Jens



Hi, Jens. These two beamshots of 20m has the same setting in my record.
f/3.5, 0.5sec, ISO400

and the 5m one is f/6.7, 1/4sec, ISO400

I used these setting because I want to avoid overexposure.


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## ichoderso (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



neoseikan said:


> Hi, Jens. These two beamshots of 20m has the same setting in my record.
> f/3.5, 0.5sec, ISO400
> 
> and the 5m one is f/6.7, 1/4sec, ISO400
> ...



Hi and Sorry, I dont saw, that the20m beamshots are only one picture and compare the exif readings with your second (last/ 5m) picture

maybe, you can make another long distance (20-50m) beamshot side by side with the M1X in one photo (like the 5m shot)

Jens


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## neoseikan (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



ichoderso said:


> Hi and Sorry, I dont saw, that the20m beamshots are only one picture and compare the exif readings with your second (last/ 5m) picture
> 
> maybe, you can make another long distance (20-50m) beamshot side by side with the M1X in one photo (like the 5m shot)
> 
> Jens



Sorry. My area is too bright & too misty. I can hardly see the hotspot at 20m+. If possible I will get more beamshots at long distance.


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## Splunk_Au (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

uh oh... is that a donut i see?


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## neoseikan (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



Splunk_Au said:


> uh oh... is that a donut i see?



exactly it is.


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



Splunk_Au said:


> uh oh... is that a donut i see?


These MC-E /P7 lights often show that cake hole or a dark cross in the middle,I dont think it will show at distance though


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## GMoney (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

:huh: Do you have a ballpark figure for the price yet? Thanks.


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## swrdply400mrelay (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

When is this coming out?


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## neoseikan (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



swrdply400mrelay said:


> When is this coming out?



Immediately. Just waiting for review,order and some assembly work.


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## orcinus (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Wow! Turned out really nice! :twothumbs
Can't wait to see the review!


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## neoseikan (Feb 7, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



orcinus said:


> Wow! Turned out really nice! :twothumbs
> Can't wait to see the review!



The sample has been sent to WBP, he also ordered some fresh 18650 cells from lighthound. I hope we can see the review quite soon.


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## RGB_LED (Feb 7, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Wow, looks like a great design... like the look of the fins and the switching mechanism is very cool. 

Just curious... I noticed the lower body is different colour from the bezel and head as well as the polished end-cap. I personally like the same ano treatment throughout the entire light but just wondering if this is just a cosmetic consideration? ie. end-cap and bezel are both polished?

Btw, do you have runtimes? And, like others, looking forward to seeing this in production...


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## neoseikan (Feb 7, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*


The Bezel and tailcap is made of Stainless Steel.
That's why they look different.
The runtime will be tested by wbp with some new cells.


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## AardvarkSagus (Feb 7, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

I can't wait to hear more about this one in practice. I love the use of SS on it too. Should make it a much more robust light overall.


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## Ryanrpm (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Neoseiken,

To your eyes, which one has more throw between the Legion II and the M1X? How about brightness from say a ceiling bounce?

BTW, nice features and build quality.


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## neoseikan (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



Ryanrpm said:


> Neoseiken,
> 
> To your eyes, which one has more throw between the Legion II and the M1X? How about brightness from say a ceiling bounce?
> 
> BTW, nice features and build quality.



Hi. I am not sure about the throw winner.
1- There is a donut hole in L2's beam, so it's harder to find the brightest area.
2- The area I live is too bright, so that I can not find the hotspot at long distance.
3- The tints are different.
4- The lumens value will be tested by wbp. I can say L2 is definitely brighter.


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## StarHalo (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> *The Specs*
> 
> * Built-in Battery Gauge.



Battery gauge?


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## neoseikan (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



StarHalo said:


> Battery gauge?



Turn on the light, then turn the control ring to left (right in left-handed version), hold. Then the light will start flashing at about 2hz. flashing for 6 times means ultra fresh, 5 means fresh, 4&3 means normal, and 2 means low.


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Hi Neo I see it has SMO reflector installed do you think the hole can be reduced with a OP reflector? just a thought.I mean using OP is not going to reduce throw by much and considering the L2 was not designed for just throw maybe the beam pattern will be more appealing :shrug:


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## neoseikan (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



TITAN1833 said:


> Hi Neo I see it has SMO reflector installed do you think the hole can be reduced with a OP reflector? just a thought.I mean using OP is not going to reduce throw by much and considering the L2 was not designed for just throw maybe the beam pattern will be more appealing :shrug:




Yes. OP is also there, but this time, I am not sure how many of them are available.


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> Yes. OP is also there, but this time, I am not sure how many of them are available.


Maybe offer the option to buy separate if available?


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## neoseikan (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



TITAN1833 said:


> Maybe offer the option to buy separate if available?



Yes. If it comes in time, people can order with the light. (not enough for everyone)


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## daberti (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> The sample has been sent to WBP, he also ordered some fresh 18650 cells from lighthound. I hope we can see the review quite soon.


 
So Neo, do you accept orders? Could you PM to me a quote included EMS shipping? Thanks


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## collector (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



Outdoors Fanatic said:


> 3x18650, side-by-side.


Would be nice if this light would not require a holder, but that the tube has milled-slots for the 3x18650.... 

Tempting......


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

I'd like to order one ASAP. How do I proceed?


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## boness (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Very Nice !


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## AardvarkSagus (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



collector said:


> Would be nice if this light would not require a holder, but that the tube has milled-slots for the 3x18650....
> 
> Tempting......



That is exactly the way these are layed out. No holder at all. Just 3 locations in the tube. Very high quality.


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## collector (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



AardvarkSagus said:


> That is exactly the way these are layed out. No holder at all. Just 3 locations in the tube. Very high quality.


Cool!

btw, why the preference for 7075 instead of 6061 which is mostly used here ?


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## daberti (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Neo, here I reply to your latest PM as your PM inbox is currently full....

Storm: my typo, 690Lumens. I'll stay tuned for his review, yet I'm looking for something performing 900-1000Lumens that will not be limited to bare throw. A kind of medium spot.


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## easilyled (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Have you tried this with a SSC-P7?
If so, how does the beam compare?
Would it increase or decrease the "donut"?


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## AardvarkSagus (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



easilyled said:


> Have you tried this with a SSC-P7?
> If so, how does the beam compare?
> Would it increase or decrease the "donut"?


I believe that he started off using the P7 and the donut was even more severe that way, along with reduced throw.


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## neoseikan (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

The first sample has cleared custom yesterday, but no updates yet.
I hope to see the real torch lumens from it.

We are preparing for the second sample. In this one, the tube can be removed and all parts on the control ring can be replaced by yourself, such as the Teflon ring or the spring. You can also clean the dirts in the control ring.

This structure will be used in new Spartanian II too, if we make sure it will be safe for the chips. Under this structure, we can remove the tube of Spartanian II, and install a 18650 tube!


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## Armed_Forces (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*








I was really looking forward to this light but that blue tint and the donut?/dark spot in the middle is really bumming me out. 

Do you plan on making any changes or is this picture representative of what the beam quality will look like in the final RTM version?


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## neoseikan (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



Armed_Forces said:


> (pics moved)
> 
> 
> I was really looking forward to this light but that blue tint and the donut?/dark spot in the middle is really bumming me out.
> ...



Hi. Almost the same. but we also have OP reflectors to get rid of it.
It's not difficult at all to add texture in a SMO reflector.
And you can choose your favorite MC-E bin if we can order it.


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## Armed_Forces (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Thanks, 
I'm looking forward to seeing the final product and the options.


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Hi Neo I think it would be nice for people to see comparison using OP reflector like the M1X.
That said shinning at short distance on a white back drop enhances the doughnut IMO I wonder if it will be that noticeable in real use that much.:shrug:

Also will the 18650 tubes for V2 S2 be compatible with V1 S2?,I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't


----------



## wbp (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



Armed_Forces said:


> I was really looking forward to this light but that blue tint and the donut?/dark spot in the middle is really bumming me out.



That green tint from the M1X is bumming me out...:tinfoil:


----------



## TITAN1833 (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



wbp said:


> That green tint from the M1X is bumming me out...:tinfoil:


:laughing:


----------



## Armed_Forces (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



wbp said:


> That green tint from the M1X is bumming me out...:tinfoil:



Perfectly said! touché 

I have used flashlights all of my life and never in my wildest dreams would I have ever thought I would utter such a ridiculous thing as I just posted above! 

I haven't even seen the bloody thing in real life, yet here I am scrutinizing that photo like I'm looking for monuments on the surface of Mars. 



This place is HORRIBLE! "flashaholic" indeed. I _used_ to laugh my *** off at that. :tinfoil:


----------



## evenchaos (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> Hi. Almost the same. but we also have OP reflectors to get rid of it.
> It's not difficult at all to add texture in a SMO reflector.
> And you can choose your favorite MC-E bin if we can order it.



How about adding the OP layer to just the bottom 1/3-1/4 portion of the reflector? Alternatively, how about adding ripples to the bottom portion of the reflector - you know like some of the newer small P7/MC-E reflectors but without the OP texture?


----------



## neoseikan (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



evenchaos said:


> How about adding the OP layer to just the bottom 1/3-1/4 portion of the reflector? Alternatively, how about adding ripples to the bottom portion of the reflector - you know like some of the newer small P7/MC-E reflectors but without the OP texture?



I am not sure but I am glad to try.
Some workshop even can not produce the reflector in Legion II. They said it's too deep and too thin to be machined well.


----------



## TITAN1833 (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Remember Neo is not offering guaranteed tint in these lights,if he were to do that I'm sure there is a premium to pay like everything else premium quality.


----------



## neoseikan (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



TITAN1833 said:


> Remember Neo is not offering guaranteed tint in these lights,if he were to do that I'm sure there is a premium to pay like everything else premium quality.



Thanks.
In fact, It's hard for me to offer guaranteed tint because I can not tell which tint is "better", except for "natural white (warm)".


----------



## Armed_Forces (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Great suggestion Chaos!

I have an Ti Olight Infinitum that has the style of reflector you suggested and it is one of the nicest Cree beams I have seen. It eliminates the Cree ring while creating an amazingly tight hotspot that makes for one hell of a throw. The fact that it has a beautiful "white" tinted R2 WD emitter is just icing on the cake. Unfortunately it has now "raised the bar" for future purchases!


..and speaking of interesting reflector developments, check THIS thread out!

"_Dereelight DBS V3's with Special Orange Peel Reflector... *very nice smooth beam, and the same lux readings as the smooth reflector!* _"

I was so intrigued that I had to order one! :devil: :tinfoil:


----------



## PhantomPhoton (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

4x and 5x tint bins for neutral are all very nice tints for the MC-E. 

I'd also like to see some playing with stippling only a part of the reflector. It is more expensive to produce a hybrid reflector... but if it works to get nicer throw without a doughnut hole I'm willing to pay for it. The thing is I don't know if it will work for an MC-E or not. I'm also not sure if stippling the part closest to the LED or the part furthest from the LED will work better for getting rid of the doughnut. If you have the resources and the time please do look into it. A final thing that you may look into is faceting a reflector. Faceted reflectors have been used for a long time to smooth out incan lamps and still provide decent throw.

I'm sitting back and looking at all of the new MC-E lights coming out. In the end I'll buy the one that best suits my needs. The Legion II appears to be great for my wants with battery and UI. A good tint, moderate throw, and clean beam will be the big deciders though. I'm still waiting on reviews for a couple of the other MC-E lights that will be out on the market soon.


----------



## easilyled (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

It may also be just a case of altering the reflector shape a bit to eliminate
the donut.

Maybe the curvature of the parabola can be optimised without needing to
alter the head.


----------



## AardvarkSagus (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

I personally think that if a major change were to be undertaken at this late stage in the game, it would be better to look into optics. Using a lens it might be more possible to reduce the amount of light escaping as spill beam and instead concentrate that into the spot more. Even if you lost a little of the overall lumen count, I believe the number would be more meaningful because it would yeild a more concentrated useful beam designed for throw. I know I have run across some 10 degree optics designed for the MC-E but it would be nice to find something a little more 5-6 degree-ish. I'd love to see the 10 compared to the existing reflector though. This reflector seems to include a large amount of spill.


----------



## TITAN1833 (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Or? we could just wait for the reviews


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



TITAN1833 said:


> Or? we could just wait for the reviews


*+1*

I personally don't care about the darn Donut... This is not a light made to win White Wall Hunting at 3 meters contests.


----------



## evenchaos (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



Outdoors Fanatic said:


> *+1*
> 
> I personally don't care about the darn Donut... This is not a light made to win White Wall Hunting at 3 meters contests.



I dunno, I tried using my SMO reflector with the Tiablo ACE module and the resulting donut hole was very noticeable even on trees and rough terrain - quite annoying actually.


----------



## Armed_Forces (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



evenchaos said:


> <snip>... - quite annoying actually.




*+1* 

How any self-respecting "flashaholic" could not care about a big *F A T* black spot dead smack in the middle of the beam is beyond me.






..are we looking at the same picture??? :nana:


----------



## ernsanada (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Try making a hybrid reflector, half SMO reflector on the outside and by the MCE OP.

Olight does this with some of their lights. 

This is the Olight T15.

Something similiar to this reflector. 

This many help eliminate the hole in the beam while increasing the throw of the light.


----------



## easilyled (Feb 12, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

I think that although the donut hole is by no means a deal-breaker, a simple
alteration in reflector design may help to reduce it significantly.

Whether its by sputtering or by a slight alteration in the geometry of the curve.

Surely, if this is all this takes, then its worthwhile for everyone?
I mean nobody is going to complain if is less pronounced, 
even the macho, "I'll take it how it comes" amongst us. :nana:

Perhaps neoseikan has already exhausted all the possibilities, but I don't know that.

I am sure he is looking at the feedback and considering the options.


----------



## evenchaos (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

I know this is kinda late, but I think the regulator needs to be redesigned to work in boost mode to supply 18-20 V to power this sucker that I just came across on KD: http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=6809 :tinfoil:

Yikes, that would be one powerful light. My P7 & MC-E lights now look terribly weak 

BTW, anyone know the model number and who makes that led - looks crazy. Smaller than that huge & inefficient array on DX. This thing is quoted to have between 53-79 lm/W, not too bad.


----------



## orcinus (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



easilyled said:


> Whether its by sputtering or by a slight alteration in the geometry of the curve.



No alterations in geometry will work, because whichever way you project the image of the emitter, it will still remain an image of FOUR (separated) dies. Hence, there will always be a doughnut. That's the way it is with multi-die emitters.

You could alter the reflector shape to get a more defocused hotspot (which would eliminate the doughnut), but that would yield you extremely reduced throw.


----------



## orcinus (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



evenchaos said:


> I know this is kinda late, but I think the regulator needs to be redesigned to work in boost mode to supply 18-20 V to power this sucker that I just came across on KD: http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=6809 :tinfoil:



Emitters such as that one are old news, really.
Check the dimensions.


----------



## neoseikan (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Hi. People. We just completed the new feature:

You can unscrew and remove the battery tube of Legion II to clean the ring or replace the spring now. The design has been applied to all the new Legion IIs.


----------



## TITAN1833 (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> Hi. People. We just completed the new feature:
> 
> You can unscrew and remove the battery tube of Legion II to clean the ring or replace the spring now. The design has been applied to all the new Legion IIs.


This is good news as it was much harder in the S2 although it can be done.

Can I ask if you will be including a spare ring and spring,I feel this would install confidence even more in this design and also save on down time of the light should either fail.

Great job so far Neo :twothumbs


----------



## neoseikan (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



TITAN1833 said:


> This is good news as it was much harder in the S2 although it can be done.
> 
> Can I ask if you will be including a spare ring and spring,I feel this would install confidence even more in this design and also save on down time of the light should either fail.
> 
> Great job so far Neo :twothumbs



Yes. Spare Teflon ring & SWP-B spring will be provided.


----------



## TITAN1833 (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> Yes. Spare Teflon ring & SWP-B spring will be provided.


If anyone's wondering what SWP-B means,simply piano spring wire, B = grade.


----------



## evenchaos (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



orcinus said:


> Emitters such as that one are old news, really.
> Check the dimensions.



Didn't see this particular unit before - the other 12W+ ones that I have come across before had distinct dies visible ala P7 & MC-E (plenty on DX), this thing looks like a continuous slab of substrate with connection pads or would those be the actual blue led emitters ? scattered around.

Oh, but yeah, see dimensions now ... bummer.


----------



## orcinus (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

I've seen some that look like a bit like crackers up close. Similar to Lux K2's, only with actual patches of semiconductor (blue LED's) in place of "holes".

Those darkish blobs on this one look like something similar.
48 visible blobs = 48 emitters in 6 groups of 8, probably connected as 6S8P, that would be 3-3.3V, 350 mA per emitter.


----------



## easilyled (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



orcinus said:


> No alterations in geometry will work, because whichever way you project the image of the emitter, it will still remain an image of FOUR (separated) dies. Hence, there will always be a doughnut. That's the way it is with multi-die emitters.
> 
> You could alter the reflector shape to get a more defocused hotspot (which would eliminate the doughnut), but that would yield you extremely reduced throw.



I'm not saying that the donut or the cross can be completely eliminated, but a change in the curvature of the parabola will alter the size
of the projection of the donut, just like the image of oneself in a mirror would change depending on the curvature of the mirror.
The idea would be to make the null area projected smaller, if possible.


----------



## orcinus (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

But that would make the doughnut appear even sharper!


----------



## easilyled (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



orcinus said:


> But that would make the doughnut appear even sharper!



Perhaps, but then use judicious sputtering in conjunction, as one or two of the previous posters have said.

Its a balancing act as I'm sure you're aware, but I have several lights with P7 emitters that have achieved a reasonable combination 
of throw and spill without a very obvious void.

I'm not sure looking at the bottom beamshot, that I would say that is the case here which is why I think its worth trying for a better balance.


----------



## orcinus (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Yes, it's a balancing act, but Legion II is all about throw, not balance 
On top of that, this isn't a P7. It's pretty much uncharted territory as far as reflectors are concerned.


----------



## neoseikan (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Updated:
OP reflector has been test. The donut hole was reduced to the level of M1X.
Users can choose their favorite reflector, or purchase both of them.


----------



## ichoderso (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> Updated:
> OP reflector has been test. The donut hole was reduced to the level of M1X.
> Users can choose their favorite reflector, or purchase both of them.



Beamshots


----------



## neoseikan (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



ichoderso said:


> Beamshots



I will do it when the batteries are charged.
This time, I also reduced the current from 3A to 2.8A, for a longer runtime.


----------



## TITAN1833 (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



orcinus said:


> Yes, it's a balancing act, but Legion II is all about throw, not balance
> On top of that, this isn't a P7. It's pretty much uncharted territory as far as reflectors are concerned.


Em I'm not sure the L2 is just all about throw,I think initially it was but I think that was optimistic.I believe now it will be a combination of the two flood/throw we will see


----------



## evenchaos (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> I will do it when the batteries are charged.
> This time, I also reduced the current from 3A to 2.8A, for a longer runtime.



Boo .... c'mon, I would say crack it up higher rather than cutting it lower. One can always use a level in-between max & min if runtime is an issue. Personally, I would have rather seen something like 3.4A for the highest setting. How about letting the peak current be user configurable .


----------



## ichoderso (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



evenchaos said:


> Boo .... c'mon, I would say crack it up higher rather than cutting it lower. One can always use a level in-between max & min if runtime is an issue. Personally, I would have rather seen something like 3.4A for the highest setting. How about letting the peak current be user configurable .



YES!!!!

There are enough around 2A driven P7/MC-E lights on the market (Jetbeam, Wolfeyes, Dereelight...)

We need full power

I have some direct drive P7/MC-E lights at around 3-4A with fresh cells.this is no problem with good heatsinking and /or for short times!!

Jens


----------



## neoseikan (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

One thing I am afraid of is:
No doubt, CPFers, or other flashaholics, will run the light at the max level for 2 hours, to see it's runtime. This might hurt the LED.
I don't want to see it happen. so, I used the official max current value: 2800mA.


ichoderso said:


> YES!!!!
> 
> There are enough around 2A driven P7/MC-E lights on the market (Jetbeam, Wolfeyes, Dereelight...)
> 
> ...


----------



## orcinus (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> One thing I am afraid of is:
> No doubt, CPFers, or other flashaholics, will run the light at the max level for 2 hours, to see it's runtime. This might hurt the LED.
> I don't want to see it happen. so, I used the official max current value: 2800mA.



How about a time-limited burst mode, then?
Something similar to what the Ra Clicky does.


----------



## TITAN1833 (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



orcinus said:


> How about a time-limited burst mode, then?
> Something similar to what the Ra Clicky does.


Yes that's a good idea,or maybe just a warning and a disclaimer if used on max for long periods should surfice IMO.

my vote is to keep the 3+Amps, power should be going up not down in these kind of lights :devil:


----------



## ichoderso (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



orcinus said:


> How about a time-limited burst mode, then?
> Something similar to what the Ra Clicky does.



+1:twothumbs
time limited or temperature controlled....


----------



## orcinus (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



ichoderso said:


> +1:twothumbs
> time limited or temperature controlled....



Thermal control would probably require changes in the driver (unless the MCU has a built-in sensor already). A time limit would just be a matter of software changes.


----------



## neoseikan (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



orcinus said:


> Thermal control would probably require changes in the driver (unless the MCU has a built-in sensor already). A time limit would just be a matter of software changes.



I think there is something need to be explained:

1- Some drivers have "heat-warning", in fact, they are just out of work when the temperature is too high. Legion2's driver doesn't have any problem with a 2 hour and 3A output.

2- It's impossible for a driver (and its MCU) to know how hot the LED is, especially the internal temperature, or whether the LED can bear the heat.

3- Supposed I still provide 3A or 3.1A output, there isn't real need to set the automatic time limit or temperature limit. I don't recommend running at max for 2 hours, but if people know that a long full power output might hurt the LED, they can decide use it or not, and for how long.


----------



## orcinus (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> 2- It's impossible for a driver (and its MCU) to know how hot the LED is, especially the internal temperature, or whether the LED can bear the heat.



That's true, but there's a way around it - calibration. The reported driver temperature is compared with the temperature measured near the emitter and the appropriate "conversion rate" determined. Of course, the response then depends on the time it takes for the heat to get conducted through the heat sink to the driver (and the driver itself heats up the sink as well), so it can never be accurate, but it can still "kill" the power if things start getting too hot too quickly.


----------



## evenchaos (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> 3- Supposed I still provide 3A or 3.1A output, there isn't real need to set the automatic time limit or temperature limit. I don't recommend running at max for 2 hours, but if people know that a long full power output might hurt the LED, they can decide use it or not, and for how long.



How is the max current set? Do you need to change a resistor, is there a trimpot, is it done in firmware or something else?

Ideally, it would be great if it was user configurable (e.g. trimpot or jumper) - that way those willing to take a chance with the emitter can do so, while everyone else will get conservative values. This would also be great for using alternate emitters in the future once they become available.

If that is not possible, then maybe you could set it at purchase time - offer "unsafe" levels as an option with adequate warning to CPFers while everyone else will get the safe 2.8A limit.

BTW, look at the Q5/R2 led lights - its max current rating is 1A but most of the good ones drive it at 1.2A+

I would even be interested to see it driven at 4.0A (1.0A per emitter, so that would be the same as a safe level for a single die emitter) if the heatsinking was adequate enough, though something like the Zebralight timed turbo mode would really be necessary then. :naughty:


----------



## neoseikan (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

To set the current, I need change a resistor.
It's also my idea that let users choose the current.




evenchaos said:


> How is the max current set? Do you need to change a resistor, is there a trimpot, is it done in firmware or something else?
> 
> Ideally, it would be great if it was user configurable (e.g. trimpot or jumper) - that way those willing to take a chance with the emitter can do so, while everyone else will get conservative values. This would also be great for using alternate emitters in the future once they become available.
> 
> ...


----------



## wbp (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

I think there is a liability issue here for NeoFab. It's way too easy to damage the LED by overheating it. Once the phosphor is burned, the output drops a lot. For example, right now I have an MC-E that puts out less than 500 lumens at 2800ma, and it shows no physical sign of damage. The LED's output spectra shows that the phosphor is damaged, but you need very expensive equipment to be able to see that ($9K worth).

I know all you hot dogs :wave: want as much output as you can get, but if it were me I would not be willing to sell a light that can be damaged by simply running it too long on high. I know some of them would come back with warranty claims caused by the owner not paying attention to the warning.

If NeoFab can figure out an algorithm for controlling the burst time that prevents damage to the LED, that might be a workable solution. It's also possible to add a thermal sensor to the die, I have some Ostar's that have thermistors installed (it's an option from Osram). All of this adds development time and expense, and raises the price of the light...

William


----------



## easilyled (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



wbp said:


> I think there is a liability issue here for NeoFab. It's way too easy to damage the LED by overheating it. Once the phosphor is burned, the output drops a lot. For example, right now I have an MC-E that puts out less than 500 lumens at 2800ma, and it shows no physical sign of damage. The LED's output spectra shows that the phosphor is damaged, but you need very expensive equipment to be able to see that ($9K worth).
> 
> I know all you hot dogs :wave: want as much output as you can get, but if it were me I would not be willing to sell a light that can be damaged by simply running it too long on high. I know some of them would come back with warranty claims caused by the owner not paying attention to the warning.
> 
> ...



There are very few lights out there that automatically shut down or step down once they're in danger of damaging the emitters/drivers
due to excess heat building up.

I think its up to us to use some common sense and not run on full power for too long when we feel the light heating up.

If the worst happens and the emitter is damaged to the extent that the output is obviously compromised, 
then we can always pay to have the emitter replaced. The liability should be on the customer, if the cause is overuse on high mode.

If its not obvious, and the user doesn't notice it, then it won't be discovered so from the user's point of view, it doesn't matter.


----------



## PhantomPhoton (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> ...
> I used the official max current value: 2800mA.



:thumbsdow


----------



## Alan B (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> One thing I am afraid of is:
> No doubt, CPFers, or other flashaholics, will run the light at the max level for 2 hours, to see it's runtime. This might hurt the LED.
> I don't want to see it happen. so, I used the official max current value: 2800mA.





neoseikan said:


> I think there is something need to be explained:
> 
> 1- Some drivers have "heat-warning", in fact, they are just out of work when the temperature is too high. Legion2's driver doesn't have any problem with a 2 hour and 3A output.
> 
> ...



Nice project!

The specs for the LED are a certain current at a certain temperature on the heatsink. Even 2800 mA is not okay at high temperature. Some flashlights will overheat if run at max for long periods of time with fresh batteries and no cooling. What happens if one gets turned on packed in a suitcase? Alkaline power is not likely to cause a major problem, but Lithium?

Sensing temperature on the heatsink and reducing power is the safest design. [email protected] does this in many or most of their LEDs. It doesn't have to be perfectly accurate. Allowing a Li-Ion flashlight to get really hot and heat up the batteries till they  is a bad idea. Especially if sold to the general public. With three 18650's. Think of the news headlines...

The second choice would be to use a timer to drop off the highest levels to a long term safe level. This does not really solve the flashlight in a suitcase problem, however.


----------



## electric sheep (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

My Tikka XP has a simple resistor under the star that i presume increases resistance with increasing temp?


----------



## wbp (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



easilyled said:


> There are very few lights out there that automatically shut down or step down once they're in danger of damaging the emitters/drivers due to excess heat building up.
> 
> I think its up to us to use some common sense and not run on full power for too long when we feel the light heating up.
> 
> ...



This makes no sense at all! I do not know of ANY commercially available lights that are overdriven, or driven beyond the specs for the LED. The idea that the consumer should be "trusted" to not run a light with an overdriven LED for too long (as if the consumer would even know what that is) is absurd. The engineering behind a commercial product has to be to try make it safe and reliable for all users.

If you want to sell a product like this I would have to ask how you expect to have a viable business model. 

If the purchaser wants to modify the light, at their own risk and with the understanding that this completely voids the warranty that's another story...

William


----------



## TITAN1833 (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



wbp said:


> This makes no sense at all! I do not know of ANY commercially available lights that are overdriven, or driven beyond the specs for the LED. The idea that the consumer should be "trusted" to not run a light with an overdriven LED for too long (as if the consumer would even know what that is) is absurd. The engineering behind a commercial product has to be to try make it safe and reliable for all users.
> 
> If you want to sell a product like this I would have to ask how you expect to have a viable business model.
> 
> ...


I totally respect your views,however I have to disagree there are lights out there that warn or recommend not to use on max for to long one example it the Haiku from Don McGizmo and also plenty of lights do also warn about inserting other batteries other than the recommended.So it seems a disclaimer is all that is needed maybe :thinking:


----------



## Kiessling (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

The Haiku can be run on high for a full burn without any problems. Don even did some temperature monitoring with a FLIR cam or whatever this thing is called.

Using other batteries is a "misuse" of the item and falls in the respionsability of the consumer. Offering an item that has its own destruction built in requires informed customers, and you really can't count on that.

bernie


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## Alan B (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Just because an LED is run within spec'd current does not mean the heatsink can handle the heat in all situations. Running an LED slightly beyond spec'd current on a big heatsink works fine, and there are reports that many manufacturers do that to achieve performance in some high performance models.

It is really a system issue. Can the system operate safely and reliably the way it is sold and shipped to the customer. Some products place operating limits on the user, and it is up to the user to follow them. Many products we buy cannot operate "continuously".


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## evenchaos (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



wbp said:


> This makes no sense at all! I do not know of ANY commercially available lights that are overdriven, or driven beyond the specs for the LED.



Em, cpf fav: Dereelight DBS/CL1H pills? The XR-E emitters spec a max current of 1.0A, while the pills drive them at 1.2A.


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



Kiessling said:


> The Haiku can be run on high for a full burn without any problems. Don even did some temperature monitoring with a FLIR cam or whatever this thing is called.


Yes you maybe right,but I was just quoting what I read from Don


> I do not think the Haiku should be used for long durations on high and especially if it is not held in the hand for thermal relief. I did to a thermal test leaving the light on high and unattended:Anyway you are right and maybe Neoseikan will decide on what is best for his cutomers and in the long run what's best for him


----------



## easilyled (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



wbp said:


> This makes no sense at all! I do not know of ANY commercially available lights that are overdriven, or driven beyond the specs for the LED. The idea that the consumer should be "trusted" to not run a light with an overdriven LED for too long (as if the consumer would even know what that is) is absurd. The engineering behind a commercial product has to be to try make it safe and reliable for all users.
> 
> If you want to sell a product like this I would have to ask how you expect to have a viable business model.
> 
> ...



I have to respectfully disagree with you. If you had been around CPF for as long as I have, you would have come across 
a vast no. of lights that heat up quite dramatically and quite fast.

It was common knowledge in all the discussions not to run them on high/burst for too long.

Very few of these lights had built in thermal sensors or any others for stepping down or shutting off as I said before.

Why don't you list all the well-known lights that do?

Neoseiken was only talking about running the led at slightly over the recommended maximum current and then 
decided to reduce this to the maximum recommended current on the high setting anyway. Hardly a liability issue as far as I can see.

Surefire L4s could toast your hand after 10 minutes with the old Lux Vs.

If you use a Draco on burst for longer than a minute or so, its understood that you the customer is taking a risk because of the tiny light
being much too small to sustain the Flupic burst setting.

The same applies to nearly all the Orb lights.

I could list examples ad infinitum.

None of these manufacturers seem to be worried about any liability.

They issue warnings and then its up to us to use our common sense.


----------



## wbp (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

OK, does no one read? I said "commercially available". I know there are LOTs of lights around here that do all sorts of things, and custom builders are free to do what they want and either accept the responsibility or let buyer beware. I know, for example, that if I run my Creemator on high without holding it or providing some means of cooling it that it's gonna fry the LED. Some of the Gatlights will cook themselves if run on high for very long at all. Etc etc etc. I don't consider any of these to be commercial products. Maybe NeoFab doesn't consider the L2 to be a commercial product either, I don't know where they are going with this.

Please don't talk to me about being around CPF for however long. Hanging out here is only part of life, and just because someone hasn't been here all that long has little to do with their total experience. I've got thousands of products out there in the world with my name on them and I think I know a thing or two about engineering for reliability, although I'll readily admit that I'm still learning after over 40 years...

I think pushing an XR-E to 1.2A when the heatsinking is there and works is one thing. People here are asking for 4A on an MC-E rated for 2.8 and if the poor sap that buys one doesn't know about this being burst mode and not to do it for too long fries their LED, that's their problem. I think that's a tad silly. That's my opinion and I'm going to stick with it, at least until my brain fries due to all the excess current from too many hours trying to keep up with all you CPF experts...

Now please try to read this with your sense of humor turned on... where's my tin foil hat? Oh yeah - :tinfoil:

William


----------



## evenchaos (Feb 16, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



wbp said:


> I think pushing an XR-E to 1.2A when the heatsinking is there and works is one thing. People here are asking for 4A on an MC-E rated for 2.8 and if the poor sap that buys one doesn't know about this being burst mode and not to do it for too long fries their LED, that's their problem.



Yes, I would seriously want to see it possible to have a (hidden?) 4A turbo mode. Why?, 700-900 lumen output is already too passée for me :nana: after having an ACE & ED-P72 light and frequently using it on high (whether needed or not ). I am by NO means advocating having it driven at 4A for the general public, but for CPF'ers I think it would be another matter, especially if its not offered as a default option (i.e. only to those who know and request a higher level). There was a reason why I mentioned the timed Zebralight turbo mode - where the light drops out of high output after 10mins (or whatever its set at) . 

Now given the fact that Neoseikan has said its changeable via a resistor, then I am happy as long as the circuit board is accessible and NOT enclosed, press fitted, sealed with extra strength locktight or welded shut. As far as I am concerned, the issue is now closed though I presume some other people will want to see it driven at moderately higher levels e.g. 3-3.2A by default. For me, its now back to hoping that Neoseikan comes through with a better reflector and keeps the light affordable so I can get it once it becomes available.

Oh, and as a side node, I know the 4A is the max that Neoseikan's regulator can supply from one of his previous posts (assuming things haven't changed on his side) but whether by coincidence or not, that happens to be the max current that would be needed to fully drive four separate Q5/R2 emitters to spec. Those would be the "same" dice that are in the MC-E emitter, so afaik, the lower current rating is due to expected thermal performance of having 4 dies so close together in a single package.


----------



## easilyled (Feb 16, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



wbp said:


> OK, does no one read? I said "commercially available".
> William



Surefire are commercially available yet it would have been inadvisable to leave the old lux V lights on high for 1 hour
at a stretch or more. (especially L4 but to a lesser extent L5 and L6 too)



wbp said:


> Please don't talk to me about being around CPF for however long. Hanging out here is only part of life, and just because someone hasn't been here all that long has little to do with their total experience. I've got thousands of products out there in the world with my name on them and I think I know a thing or two about engineering for reliability, although I'll readily admit that I'm still learning after over 40 years...



I'm sure you know a huge amount about many things. I can see that. 
However I think that it helps to see the evolution of leds across the generations and the lights themselves too to have a good understanding about what is expected of both the led and the user.
I had come to realise long ago that if overdriven, the lifetime of an led is compromised considerably and because of that I never leave any of my lights on for long when I feel any heat.
I feel that the same principle applies whether the led-light is custom or commercially based.
I would certainly consider the Legion II to be at least semi-custom anyway, since neoseiken is taking so much feedback from us and using so many of our criteria and desires to build the light around.



wbp said:


> I think pushing an XR-E to 1.2A when the heatsinking is there and works is one thing. People here are asking for 4A on an MC-E rated for 2.8 and if the poor sap that buys one doesn't know about this being burst mode and not to do it for too long fries their LED, that's their problem. I think that's a tad silly. That's my opinion and I'm going to stick with it, at least until my brain fries due to all the excess current from too many hours trying to keep up with all you CPF experts.




I agree with you that 4A would be excessive. 2.8A is fine as far as I am concerned.
What I don't agree with is that the onus is on neoseiken to put all sorts of sophisticated built-in protection 
mechanisms into his light. After all, I want to be able to afford it. :nana:
A disclaimer about not having the light on high for more than 10 minutes continuously should be enough,
like it always has been.
In led lights of these outputs (which by the way, there have never been up until recently), the second level is probably more than enough for most uses, most of the time anyway.


----------



## neoseikan (Feb 16, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Hi. People. Some new photos & my idea about the heat problem:

Some of you said about 4A driven MC-E/P7 lights, I think they are not regulated, are they? If there isn't a fully regulated driver in such a light,
the current will reduce as the battery voltage. So, the heat from LED will be less and less.

But a regulated driver is another story. No matter how hot the LED and driver is, the current will always be 4A. When you compare different runtime charts, you will find the total output from regulated/non-regulated lights are so different, so is the heat.

We should remember this.

(pics moved to the first post.)


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## AardvarkSagus (Feb 16, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Definitely like the OP much better. The doughnut is still there, but it is FAR less noticeable. I think a lot of people are going to prefer that reflector even at the cost of a little throw.


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## AlexGT (Feb 16, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Wow nice light!

What colors will be offered? HA Nat and HA black? Would really want to see the different parts to match in color

What are the dimensions of it? Lenght? Bezel diameter? Body diameter? Weight?

Can I suggest to add a hole for a lanyard? Tritium slots?

What is the water resistance? I would like to see at least 10 meters.

How positive is the selector ring? I assume that is the switch to turn it on right? 

Price?

Thanks!
AlexGT


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## AardvarkSagus (Feb 16, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

I'm not sure what he is offering for the anodizing, but it appears to be black. The reason the parts don't "match" is actually because the bezel and tailcap are made from Stainless Steel to provide better durability.

I know water is going to be at least a little bit of an issue though because of the design of the selector ring, and yes it is the on switch as well.


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## Jarl (Feb 16, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Every time I read this thread, the light is that much better, and I have that much less money.... *facepalm*


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## AlexGT (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Neoseikan, do you have the outdoor pictures in a bigger format?, I wan't to compare them, would like to see the ones that have the city skyline and what appears to be a line of trees being illuminated, how far are those trees?

Thanks!
AlexGT


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## neoseikan (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



AlexGT said:


> Neoseikan, do you have the outdoor pictures in a bigger format?, I wan't to compare them, would like to see the ones that have the city skyline and what appears to be a line of trees being illuminated, how far are those trees?
> 
> Thanks!
> AlexGT



Hi. I have the RAW file if you want it.
These trees are about 7 meter away.
I can not find a wide dark area.


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## 65535 (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Hey neo it's great to see you at this. 

Your lights have evolved amazingly since the original Spartan. It's great work.


If you ever need another review you got my #.


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## Bushman5 (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

how many lumens on high setting?


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## neoseikan (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



Bushman5 said:


> how many lumens on high setting?


Waiting for the lumens test...


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## Bushman5 (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Cheers. I quite like the machining


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## neoseikan (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Note:
In this photo, the control ring is bare Alu, just for fun.


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## toby_pra (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Looks nice...:tinfoil:


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## AlexGT (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

This picture is the one I want to see, How far are those trees in the red arrow? I think that is more than 7 meters away






Thanks!
AlexGT


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## neoseikan (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



AlexGT said:


> This picture is the one I want to see, How far are those trees in the red arrow? I think that is more than 7 meters away
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's about 20m.


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## neoseikan (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Before the professional 3rd party review, there is some test result from myself.

Sample B.

Output: 
2.9A(full distance)

Runtime with 3*Ultrafire unprotected 18650 cells:
2h4m.

With the built-in battery gauge, we can see how the cells work:

level6 (full)->level5 : About 35mins.
level5 (good)->level4: About 35mins.
level4 (fair)->level3: About 25mins.
level3 (low)->level2: About 15mins.
level2 (quite low)->Warning->level1->Auto OFF: 10mins.

When the light is OFF, you can still turn it on for emergency. At lower brightness level, the cells can still provide some energy. For example, when the light shut down at MAX level, turn it on, and switch to the lowest level (about 400mA), then use the gauge, the gauge level might be level 4 (fair).

But I recommend charging the cells when the gauge is at level 3.


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## AardvarkSagus (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Does the light have battery overdischarge protection? Can unprotected cells be used or should we all get protected cells?


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## easilyled (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



AardvarkSagus said:


> Does the light have battery overdischarge protection? Can unprotected cells be used or should we all get protected cells?



The post just above yours says that the light has a battery gauge and that when the guage goes down to level 3 its time to replace the batteries.

Therefore I assume that unprotected cells are fine as long as you look at the guage and change them at the right time.


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## neoseikan (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



easilyled said:


> The post just above yours says that the light has a battery gauge and that when the guage goes down to level 3 its time to replace the batteries.
> 
> Therefore I assume that unprotected cells are fine as long as you look at the guage and change them at the right time.




There isn't the entity of gauge, just a function.
When the light is ON, turn the ring to left and hold, you can see the LED is flashing.

When the battery voltage is lower than level 2, the warning flashing comes.

And the light automatically goes off when the voltage reaches a "protection point"


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## AardvarkSagus (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



neoseikan said:


> ...And the light automatically goes off when the voltage reaches a "protection point"


That's what I was hoping for, even though I would most likely dig up some protected 18650's anyway. Good to know the light includes protection if necessary. I tend to charge my lights on a schedule that doesn't allow them to have dead batteries ever.


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## neoseikan (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



AardvarkSagus said:


> That's what I was hoping for, even though I would most likely dig up some protected 18650's anyway. Good to know the light includes protection if necessary. I tend to charge my lights on a schedule that doesn't allow them to have dead batteries ever.



After the runtime test, the voltage of 3 cells are around 3.2V~3.4V, they are safe.


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## neoseikan (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*

Lumens reading Updated.

L1 = 98 lumens, L2 = 157, L3 = 264, L4 = 456, L5 = 742.


Thank you all.


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## AardvarkSagus (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



neoseikan said:


> Lumens reading Updated.
> 
> L1 = 98 lumens, L2 = 157, L3 = 264, L4 = 456, L5 = 742.
> 
> ...



742!!!  Sweet.

Is the first review up yet?


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## neoseikan (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



AardvarkSagus said:


> 742!!!  Sweet.
> 
> Is the first review up yet?



Quite soon!


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## AardvarkSagus (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*

I assume those are out the front lumens? Also, was that with the smooth or OP reflector?


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## wbp (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



AardvarkSagus said:


> I assume those are out the front lumens? Also, was that with the smooth or OP reflector?



Yes, out the front, that's why he said "torch lumens". With the new OP reflector, although I would not expect the smooth to be significantly different.

Measurements were taken with IMR 18650's. I did another pass with freshly charged AW 18650's (not IMR) and got 748 peak, so I'm getting pretty consistent results.

William


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## neoseikan (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



wbp said:


> Yes, out the front, that's why he said "torch lumens". With the new OP reflector, although I would not expect the smooth to be significantly different.
> 
> Measurements were taken with IMR 18650's. I did another pass with freshly charged AW 18650's (not IMR) and got 748 peak, so I'm getting pretty consistent results.
> 
> William



Yes. William. the output won't change with different cells, even 3*16340. (If possible to put them in)


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## guiri (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

What the hell? Am I missing it or is there no price yet?

I like the look and kudos for NOT putting the batteries lengthwise so to speak. I much rather have a shorter and thicker body. The long ones look stupid as hell and take up way too much space


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## evenchaos (Feb 24, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



guiri said:


> What the hell? Am I missing it or is there no price yet?
> 
> I like the look and kudos for NOT putting the batteries lengthwise so to speak. I much rather have a shorter and thicker body. The long ones look stupid as hell and take up way too much space



Look in the CPF marketplace, Manufacturers corner. Its there .... oh and I recommend you chain your wallet as it may attempt to flee


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## guiri (Feb 24, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

Thanks, it's a cool damn light. I'll have to wait for some money though


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## StandardBattery (Feb 24, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

Now this looks like an Awesome MC-E design. I want one! I'm scared to look at the price! Great Work!


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## copperfox (Feb 24, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



neoseikan said:


> Lumens reading Updated.
> 
> L1 = 98 lumens, L2 = 157, L3 = 264, L4 = 456, L5 = 742.
> 
> ...



At the risk of being a back-seat driver, can I suggest a more reasonable separation of levels?

L1 = 7
L2 = 25
L3 = 80
L4 = 264
L5 = 742

This would more closely match "evenly spaced brightnesses" according to the human eye. Besides, a lowest mode of 98 is kinda high. L5 can stay the same. The previous L3 can be reused for L4 to cut down on the time it takes to re-engineer the circuit. I don't think a light this size needs any mode that is lower than 7ish lumens.

Edit: Yes I realize that this light is almost finished. I was suggesting a new set of levels for the next go around.


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## GMoney (Feb 24, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

First of all great light design. But I would have to agree with Copperfox, if there is one thing holding me back from purchasing it would be a lower minimum setting. 98 lumens is a bright starting place.


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## wbp (Feb 24, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

During my initial testing I suggested adding more levels. 7 lumens might be a tad low for a light this big, but perhaps not.


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## PhantomPhoton (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



wbp said:


> During my initial testing I suggested adding more levels. 7 lumens might be a tad low for a light this big, but perhaps not.



A light can _NEVER_ *EVER* get too low.  We like loooooooong runtimes around here. I'd love to have a nice >1 Lumen setting. Just enough to make those phosphors glow so the light can be found.


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## Jarl (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

IMO for levels, it's dead easy... start at 0.01 lumens, then 1, then 10 to 15, then 100 to 150, then max.

That said, I think the advantages of this light easily make the lack of a proper low a bit of a non-issue... just carry a photon pro with you


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## 9x23 (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*

Just my two cents here.......I'm with many others here who would like to see a low of about 1/2 lumens since I would use this light as a nightstand light as well as for camping and night fishing, general purpose around the house, and for grins too. I find that a low light level such as on a Nitecore D20 or HDS EDC actually works very well for small tasks (checking on kids at night, trips to bathroom, baiting hooks while night fishing, etc.) at night once you adapt to the night vision. Anything brighter would blow out your eyes. For me if I were to put in my two cents for usable lighting levels from 1/2 to 750+ lumens my preference would be approximately these levels:

1/2 lumen (for low task lighting when you have night adapted vision) 
25 lumens (for general indoor tasks where one might need a flashlight)
120 lumens (for general outdoor walking around at nights when more range is desired)
400 lumens (for extended runtimes when you want a very bright light)
742 lumens (for when you just need that full blast for short periods)

Of course, since you've already reserve serial #8 for me I'll take whatever you give me! 

Just one question for now:

1. Can the driver be user replaced should you release a newer driver with revised levels?

It's time for me to go to your "buy" thread to select my configuration and pay. BTW....great job!

Thanks!

9x23


----------



## wbp (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



9x23 said:


> Just my two cents here.......I'm with many others here who would like to see a low of about 1/2 lumens since I would use this light as a nightstand light as well as for camping and night fishing, general purpose around the house, and for grins too.



I'm not objecting to having lower levels, but...

This is not a small flashlight. It's over 7" long and 2" in diameter at the head, and it weighs 1.2 pounds. It isn't going to fit in most people's pockets! Are you sure you would actually use it as you describe? Personally I will still be carrying something else, very small, probably AAA based or CR2, like the Arc Mania E3 that lives in my pocket at the moment, or a small CR123 light...


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## guiri (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*

wbp, think of it this way. IF You had to pick ONE light for any situation, be it the truck, on vacation or camping and you had a light that could do all this. Would than then make you feel better about the low output level?

I mean, half a lumen could keep you with light for years (assuming the batteries survive that long that is)


----------



## wbp (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



guiri said:


> wbp, think of it this way. IF You had to pick ONE light for any situation, be it the truck, on vacation or camping and you had a light that could do all this. Would than then make you feel better about the low output level?



Given the size, weight, and output of my Arc Mania E3, why would I NOT carry it, or an LF3 or some other small light? There aren't any trit slots in the L2 either and no real place to put any...

I don't need to feel better about having a lower output level - I'm not against it! One of the very first things I asked Neoseikan for was more levels.

I just think that given the size and heft of this light, asking it to do everything and be everything to all people is kinda silly. There is no way I'm going to walk around with a Legion 2 stuffed in my pocket, but I'd feel naked without the E3 in the watch pocket (flashlight pocket!) of my Diamond Gusset's!


----------



## guiri (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*

No but here's what I'm thinking. With that many batteries in it and a super low level, that thing has got to last forever. Yeah, I have other low level lights that are more practical but not as much battery power. That's what I was thinking


----------



## Jarl (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



guiri said:


> No but here's what I'm thinking. With that many batteries in it and a super low level, that thing has got to last forever. Yeah, I have other low level lights that are more practical but not as much battery power. That's what I was thinking



24 watt hours.... 50 lumens= 0.3 watts or thereabouts=80 hours.

A tenth of that should still be enough light to see by.... 800 hour runtimes, anyone?





p.s: I used 50 lumens because this is about max efficiency for a quad die LED. (~25ma/die). Efficiency gets a bit sticky below this value.... These figures may be a bit out, it's been a while since I last played with LED's at very low current.


----------



## ace0001a (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

I'm a lumens whore, so part of me wouldn't mind if it was just a one-742-lumen-mode flashlight. To me, lumens fall into the notion of that you could never have too much of a good thing. With that said, I see no use in a super low mode like 1/2 lumens. No disrepect to those who seem to have a high sensativity to ultra low level lighting, but to me 1/2 lumens is useless (unless I knew I was going to be trapped in a cave for a month). To me, a Luxeon I level performance (30 to 40 lumens) would make for an excellent lowest level usage like night stand use and such. General indoor usage to me would be 100+ lumens...like I said, I'm a lumens whore. I'm with wpb that this isn't a small light and it's output curve should reflect that. Form factor is also a reason why I think a flashlight like a C or D Maglite would be a waste if it didn't have 150+ lumens output...there are MiniMags for lower output I think. The guys making this flashlight have a smaller Spartan II flashlight that would fit the size appropriate lower output curve I think. I guess to me when it comes to flashlights, size does matter! :thumbsup: That's just my take on things, but to each their own I guess. Flashlight on everyone!! :rock:


----------



## Alan B (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

The power consumption of the electronics when "on" probably is greater than required to produce 1/2 lumen from the LEDs, so the runtime will not increase as much as expected. 

One way to choose a low level is to reduce the output until the runtime stops increasing significantly - there is no energy reason to go much beyond that. So when about three quarters of the energy is powering the electronics, there is no runtime reason to go lower.

I have been experimenting with low light levels in my incan driver. If you need to carry a large bright flashlight such as this one, but your present needs for light are minimal it is not convenient to put this large flashlight away and get out a teeny light - how do you carry it? Your hand is available to carry the large light, but if you want to go to a low light level, where do you carry the large light? If the large light will do the low level, you are already carrying it, so use it. Leave the small light as a backup in your pocket. This large light occupies a hand, so it needs to meet all your lighting needs.

Good steps between levels should be about four times the lumens at each step.

By way of example I take the 11V 1500 lumen incan down to a couple of volts and produce a few lumens of light and it is quite useful.

My observation,


----------



## MrGman (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



wbp said:


> Given the size, weight, and output of my Arc Mania E3, why would I NOT carry it, or an LF3 or some other small light? There aren't any trit slots in the L2 either and no real place to put any...
> 
> I don't need to feel better about having a lower output level - I'm not against it! One of the very first things I asked Neoseikan for was more levels.
> 
> I just think that given the size and heft of this light, asking it to do everything and be everything to all people is kinda silly. There is no way I'm going to walk around with a Legion 2 stuffed in my pocket, but I'd feel naked without the E3 in the watch pocket (flashlight pocket!) of my Diamond Gusset's!


 
Plus 10. 

A 1/2 lumen red LED is all you need to preserve night vision. This light ain't it. Its ridiculous to try and make a megalight of this size also the tinsy weensy little night light also.

I would like to know what the current draw is at each of those stated lumen levels posted. Just curious.


----------



## guiri (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*

Well, not necessarily half a lumen but something low for super long run time. I'm a lumens whore too but still, I'm talking emergency here. You know, the cave scenario.

With all that said, a light with too many options is a pain in the *** 'cause I"m personally too damn stupid to figure out how to use them


----------



## wbp (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



guiri said:


> With all that said, a light with too many options is a pain in the *** 'cause I"m personally too damn stupid to figure out how to use them



Now on THAT we are in complete agreement! about too many options, that is, not the other part - how would I know?


----------



## guiri (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



wbp said:


> not the other part - how would I know?



Yeah, well, that doesn't keep others from messin' with me anyway. I seem to attract them


----------



## Alan B (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



guiri said:


> Well, not necessarily half a lumen but something low for super long run time. I'm a lumens whore too but still, I'm talking emergency here. You know, the cave scenario.
> 
> With all that said, a light with too many options is a pain in the *** ...



Long runtime is extremely valued in lights during emergencies. Super bright lights that last one hour become useless.

Having a number of levels doesn't have to be painful. My hotwire regulator has about 100 levels, and all you have to deal with is up and down, so you don't really care how many levels there actually are.


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## guiri (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*

Yeah well, that's why I love the new nitecores with the piston but I meant the ones where you have to do all kinds of different things to make them change. Twist fast, twist slow, do this, do that. Nah, I can't do it. Love my Jetbeam and nitecore extreme but I can't figure out how to use them and since I use them seldom, I forget how to change the settings


----------



## wbp (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



Alan B said:


> Long runtime is extremely valued in lights during emergencies. Super bright lights that last one hour become useless.
> 
> Having a number of levels doesn't have to be painful. My hotwire regulator has about 100 levels, and all you have to deal with is up and down, so you don't really care how many levels there actually are.



First of all, with freshly charged cells this light draws around 800 ma from the battery, increasing to around 1300 mA as the cells deplete. It has a (reported) run time of nearly 2 hours on HIGH :wow: 
(I will be measuring the run time myself when time permits, but I have no reason to doubt Neoseikan when he tells me this is what he got)

At level 1 (100 lumens) it starts out at around 85 mA from the battery, increasing to perhaps 120 mA as the voltage drops. If we assume 2200 mAH cells and an average of 100 mA, that's roughly 22 hours at 100 lumens...

I'd say that is pretty _useful_ as it is configured now.

With the unique UI this light has, 100 levels would not be at all practical.


----------



## guiri (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*

22 hours is cool but imagine you're stuck on a deserted island or some other crap.You're not gonna get rescued in 22 hours or a couple of days more than likely


----------



## Fooboy (Feb 25, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

750 torch lumens ... 

So to the human eye it looks twice as bright as a 125 lumen flashlight.


----------



## neoseikan (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

Hi. People. Quite happy to see so many of you distribute your advices.
I'd like to explain for the levels setting.

1- Our goal: Top efficiency; Top regulation; Top Robustness.
2- Our trade off: More levels. Because we can not get a satisfying efficiency at lower levels. If we added 50mA, the efficiency will become less than 50%. It's unacceptable. And the driver will loss its robustness.
3- Maybe we can produce a driver, which is stronger than L2's, and still has a low low level, It will cost more room and money. We will try it in future.

Thanks.


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## ace0001a (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*



Alan B said:


> Long runtime is extremely valued in lights during emergencies. Super bright lights that last one hour become useless.



Yeah tell that to the many Surefire high output incans that run less than an hour. I can't even grasp the notion that super brightness for 1 hour is useless. That statement only makes sense in the case of an emergency, but I wouldn't necessarily consider the Legion II to be used mainly for emergency purposes. 



Alan B said:


> Having a number of levels doesn't have to be painful. My hotwire regulator has about 100 levels, and all you have to deal with is up and down, so you don't really care how many levels there actually are.



While I don't mind a few levels, there is a point where it becomes too much and unecessary in my opinion. I think the setup this flashlight has is good, though I do think 100 lumens for the absolute lowest mode is too bright. To me, Luxeon I level performance would be perfect for the lowest level.


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## guiri (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II OP/runtime/more pics UPDATED.*

I'm not saying this light should be this or that, my point was that it's good to HAVE, just in case. Not that you should focus on this, pick this light for emergency or whatever. Just have the option, IN CASE


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

Guys the talk about this light for emergency use is fine,but really it would never be practicable to rely on the L2 only.My advice is to always have at least two lights"more would be advisable" ready to go,

one able to give full on light when the need arises and one EDC sized light with a very low,low like S2,Novatac Ra clicky or sufefire titan which I might add will run for days or maybe weeks if used sparingly on the lowest setting.

This would keep the L2 for it's purpose lots of lumens when needed and used on max for short bursts should get you through at least a couple of weeks IMO.

(Remember! always carry a back up or two) :twothumbs


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## orcinus (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

Why do people keep having difficulties grasping the fact that HIGHER DYNAMIC RANGE = LOWER EFFICIENCY?

The higher the difference between the highest and lowest level is, the less efficient the driver will be. That's just the way things work, folks. You can't have the cake and eat it too. It's either-or.

I'd bet there'd be an equal amount of people whining how inefficient the light is if it were the other way around - i.e. if the light did 1 lumen to 750 lumens. Just look at the Arc6 threads.


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## Ryanrpm (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

Not to go too far off topic, but those lights out there that specialize in Infinite brightness levels, would they fall under the same category?


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## AardvarkSagus (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

I personally am surprised at how many people here on this forum are looking at a high end light like this and contemplating how useful it would be if it was the only light they owned. How many people are going to choose one of these 30 high end premium collectors edition lights as a first and only flashlight? None of you actually have no other lights to choose from. I wonder why this light is not allowed to be a specialized unique piece instead of having to be all things to all people? I prefer to have a number of lights that cover different tasks, I don't use a flat head screwdriver to loosen my lug nuts. I like to be able to choose the proper tool for the specific task at hand. Each of my lights has their own specific area of expertise. If I could afford this light it would not be taking the place of my Coast LED Lenser dual output red 5mm for night time treks to the thermostat. Even if it did have a half lumen low mode.


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

I agree with orcinus and AardvarkSagus 100% and another reason this light would not be my first choice when trekking to the bathroom at night,imagine dropping the L2 on your bare little toes  ouch!!

No thanks!I have smaller and lighter ones for that task,and I will still walk the next day should I have a dropping accident :laughing:


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## HKJ (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



orcinus said:


> Why do people keep having difficulties grasping the fact that HIGHER DYNAMIC RANGE = LOWER EFFICIENCY?
> 
> The higher the difference between the highest and lowest level is, the less efficient the driver will be. That's just the way things work, folks. You can't have the cake and eat it too. It's either-or.



I do not understand that. The current consumption of the circuit may give a low efficiency at low level, but the efficiency at the high levels does not have to be effected, at least not in any significant way.


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## wbp (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



TITAN1833 said:


> I agree with orcinus and AardvarkSagus 100% and another reason this light would not be my first choice when trekking to the bathroom at night,imagine dropping the L2 on your bare little toes  ouch!!:laughing:



Ouch is right! Given the weight and the bezel, you're likely to lose a toe!:eeksign:


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## concept0 (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



orcinus said:


> Why do people keep having difficulties grasping the fact that HIGHER DYNAMIC RANGE = LOWER EFFICIENCY?


 
Probably because nobody has ever heard of such a concept... I've been reading CPF for a long time (didn't start posting till more recently) and I've never heard mention of this idea.

I'm not an EE, but I'm pretty good with math and physics and I can think of no reason why this would be universally true. I've seen efficient lights with a large dynamic range and (more commonly) inefficient lights with a small dynamic range.

Can you provide a scientific basis for this theory?


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## wbp (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

This light was designed to be efficient at high output, which is why there are 3 cells in series powering it. As you lower the drive current to the LED, the efficiency will go down, due to losses in the driver circuitry. Even a small amount of dissipation in the driver becomes more and more significant as the voltage across the driver increases. The math (and physics) are not very complicated here.


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## concept0 (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



wbp said:


> This light was designed to be efficient at high output, which is why there are 3 cells in series powering it. As you lower the drive current to the LED, the efficiency will go down, due to losses in the driver circuitry. Even a small amount of dissipation in the driver becomes more and more significant as the voltage across the driver increases. The math (and physics) are not very complicated here.


 
So a light that uses (for instance) a single 1.5v cell and boosts for high drive current would be efficient at low levels, but not higher levels, whereas a light that uses 3 li-ion cells and a buck circuit would be efficient at high levels, but not low?

Or am I misunderstanding?


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

Hey guys?
If it's so easy where are all the high powered MC-E/ P7 that have a 1 lumen or less low and ranges up to and beyond 500 lumens,I don't see any and I doubt you will see one any time soon :devil:


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## HKJ (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



TITAN1833 said:


> Hey guys?
> If it's so easy where are all the high powered MC-E/ P7 that have a 1 lumen or less low and ranges up to and beyond 500 lumens,I don't see any and I doubt you will see one any time soon :devil:



It is easy enough to make, but the manufacturers do probably not believe we want it.
How easy it is to make will depend on the circuit used and it might increase the cost a little bit. Looking at energy consumption it might also be pointless to make it, because the control circuit might use more energy than the led at low power levels.


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



HKJ said:


> Looking at energy consumption it might also be pointless to make it, because the control circuit might use more energy than the led at low power levels.


Exactly! therefore it would be pointless at this time to add a 1 lumen level for the sake of efficiency IMHO


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## PhantomPhoton (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



orcinus said:


> Why do people keep having difficulties grasping the fact that HIGHER DYNAMIC RANGE = LOWER EFFICIENCY?
> 
> The higher the difference between the highest and lowest level is, the less efficient the driver will be. That's just the way things work, folks. You can't have the cake and eat it too. It's either-or.
> 
> I'd bet there'd be an equal amount of people whining how inefficient the light is if it were the other way around - i.e. if the light did 1 lumen to 750 lumens. Just look at the Arc6 threads.




Yes, in general I agree. But there's an incredibly simple solution to that... it's sad that manufacturers haven't figured it out yet.


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## Archangel (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*

What is the width of the head and the body and its length? Was it posted and i glossed right over it?


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## MiniLux (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



Archangel said:


> What is the width of the head and the body and its length? Was it posted and i glossed right over it?


 
Yep:

*Length: About 177mm.*
*Head Diameter: 53mm.*
*Housing Diameter: 41.5mm*

MiniLux


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## daberti (Feb 27, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



TITAN1833 said:


> Hey guys?
> If it's so easy where are all the high powered MC-E/ P7 that have a 1 lumen or less low and ranges up to and beyond 500 lumens,I don't see any and I doubt you will see one any time soon :devil:


 
I'm expecting flames, yet that is why (one reason amongst others) I prefer lets say a 7xXR-E R2 light over a single MC-E/P7 one.


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## HKJ (Feb 27, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



TITAN1833 said:


> Exactly! therefore it would be pointless at this time to add a 1 lumen level for the sake of efficiency IMHO



But there might be other reasons to have a 1 lumen level, for me 100 lumens is to much in some situations. With the current design of L2 I have to use another light for these occasions.


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## wbp (Feb 27, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

I've been working on run time tests on this beast. They're not done yet, partly because it takes so long to do even one...

I have to say, I am impressed by one thing. So many lights are pushed really hard at their highest levels, and doing a run time test means figuring out some way to cool them. With the Legion 2 all I needed was a fan. I had it running for an hour and my IR thermometer shows 78 degrees F. When I opened it up the cells were not warm. I like this kind of design - this thing will put out 700+ lumens of real light and do it reliably, hour after hour, day after day, without overstressing or cooking the LED or the battery.

Nice job, Neoseikan! :goodjob:


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## neoseikan (Feb 28, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

Thank you very much, William. Looking forward for more info such as runtime and beamshots from you.


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## neoseikan (Mar 2, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

Runtime at max level added. From wbp. Thank you!


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## Kurapica (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

Hey Guys.

I noticed many people mentioned about levels and efficiency. As the designer of L2's driver, I have to say something about the trade-off in this product.

Firstly I think we all know something about trade-off, such as you have to trade-off from a mini and a SUV for space and gas consumption. When some resource is not infinitely available, there must be some trade-off.

When we started L2 project, we had some goals: 1 Output; 2 Stability; 3 Efficient; 4 Feature. The restriction is space because we cannot design a huge driver board and fit it into L2. As we want to achieve a high output as 7xx lumens, the current have to be 3A or so. With such a current, low efficient driver will cause overheating of driver board and decrease of stability. So we tried our best to make the efficiency at Lv.5 to 92%, which means the driver board consumes less than 1W at Lv.5 and it's only a bit warm.

When we initially designed the driver, it has 8 levels. But when we test through the driver, we found the lowest 3 levels have poor efficient and not so stable, because the designing and part chose is optimized for 3A level. After a discussion with neoseikan, we decided to cut the lowest 3 levels. We believe if someone need such a low level, he may look at a S2 but not a L2.

So all I wanna say is there is no silver bullet in the world, and no perfect flashlight for everyone. L2 is a L2, not a S2 or something like I.B.S. We are planning a seperate low-level circuit module in future L3, but we have not yet start that work and we believe this module will rise the cost a lot. So for L2, we have to trade-off some specs to make it a "CORRECT" flashlight, but not a strange one with some feature best but others worst.

Sorry for my expression because I'm programming some craps these days heavily and almost forgot how to speak to human race...especially in English. I also mention you to notice the output curve neoseikan added at the top floor. It is as flat as we expected.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

I'm speechless!

Outstanding job guys. 

Congratulations.


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## lonesouth (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*

Just to add to things...I like the idea of a seperate circuit to handle the low. Obviously this has to increase the price due to additional R&D and parts. I think you could incorporate some battery management and allow the battery structure to switch between 3S for higher output to 3P for longer runtime. Be that a mechanical or solid state switch. Course this would only be helpful for people who only want one light. Seems most people on here would avoid such a light seeing as it doesn't give them a reason to buy a second light. But there is a tradeoff again, where the R&D into the low could have been spent on the high and possibly created a higher output instead of a high output with low. Congrats on a very neat design and a newly designed UI. You guys are doing some cool stuff and I'm looking forward to what comes next!


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## easilyled (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



Outdoors Fanatic said:


> I'm speechless!
> 
> Outstanding job guys.
> 
> Congratulations.



+1


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*

Dear Neoseikan and Kurapica; 

I have a pretty good solution to all these bozos giving you hell about lower lows:

- Simply provide one of these for free with every purchase of a Legion II ==>>


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II*

Good one Outdoors Fanatic :laughing:

BTW would it happen to have a 742 lumens high by any chance


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## wbp (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II*



TITAN1833 said:


> Good one Outdoors Fanatic :laughing:
> 
> BTW would it happen to have a 742 lumens high by any chance



Of course, but only for 120 ms...


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II*



wbp said:


> Of course, but only for 120 ms...


 

Great! I'm sold :devil:


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## ace0001a (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II*

Marvelous work by Neoseikan and Kurapica! :thumbsup: Like I said before that I felt a LuxI level performance would've been great for the lowest mode, but I understand the trade off and I'm sure the guys tried hard to work things out and came up with what they felt was the best compromise. Since I'm a self proclaimed lumens whore, I really don't mind 100 lumens being the lowest. For a flashlight of the L2's size, I think the output is appropriate. Being a flashaholic, I just realize that if I really need a super low mode that I'd have another flashlight that was designed for it...so I think it's funny that people would want just one flashlight that does everything. I thought we're all here because we love flashlights and own many???


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## wbp (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II*

The more I think about it...  I think they should add a ring of red, green, and blue LED's to the bezel, with suitable controls. Think about it - low level mood lighting, any color you like, even a party mode! Oh, and at least one tiny green LED in the tail cap to serve as a locator, with both continuous 0.1 lumen or flashing beacon mode. I could go on, but ... :tinfoil:


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## guiri (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II*

Yeah, and add a tiny disco ball while you're at it


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II*

wbp but what would I do with these if the L2 had all that? :thinking:


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## guiri (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II*

That's funny. That would give a whole new meaning to the phrase "playing with yourself" wouldn't it?


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## niner (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II*



wbp said:


> The more I think about it...  I think they should add a ring of red, green, and blue LED's to the bezel, with suitable controls. Think about it - low level mood lighting, any color you like, even a party mode! Oh, and at least one tiny green LED in the tail cap to serve as a locator, with both continuous 0.1 lumen or flashing beacon mode. I could go on, but ... :tinfoil:


 
Kind of like the "angel eye" headlight from newer BMW :naughty:

I was thinking about a custom tail cap that carries a very small and low power flashlight, and it can be charged by the main battery.


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## evenchaos (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



lonesouth said:


> I think you could incorporate some battery management and allow the battery structure to switch between 3S for higher output to 3P for longer runtime. Be that a mechanical or solid state switch.



One thing about any switching circuit is that it will reduce efficiency whether its due to extra mosfet resistance (yes, however small its there) or holding current for a relay.

One thing that makes me wonder is why was PWM not employed for the lower brightness levels? Yeah, I know some people complain about flicker, but it would still be better than nothing.

And yes, I would have liked to have seen an all encompassing light - would have been great for outdoor trips when you want to minimize baggage.


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## Jarl (Mar 5, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



evenchaos said:


> One thing about any switching circuit is that it will reduce efficiency whether its due to extra mosfet resistance (yes, however small its there) or holding current for a relay.
> 
> One thing that makes me wonder is why was PWM not employed for the lower brightness levels? Yeah, I know some people complain about flicker, but it would still be better than nothing.
> 
> And yes, I would have liked to have seen an all encompassing light - would have been great for outdoor trips when you want to minimize baggage.



Because with PWM either you'd sacrifice efficiency, or you'd have to have both cc and PWM circuitry in the light.

The tailcap light sounds genius- I'm sure there's some way of incorporating a switch into the side of the tailcap if so desired. Heck, if there's space for an AAA and the circuit of an E01, you'd be sorted 

It'd actually be fairly easy to run a resistor and an LED in the tailcap running off 2 of the cells for ~1 lumen. The only problem with that is that you'd have uneven drain off li-ions...:sick2: Wiring to run off 3 would be tricky as well...


----------



## BBnet3000 (Mar 5, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



evenchaos said:


> And yes, I would have liked to have seen an all encompassing light - would have been great for outdoor trips when you want to minimize baggage.


honestly, its not THAT hard to carry an e01 on your person.

i should know, i do it all the time


----------



## wbp (Mar 5, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! NEOFAB Legion II UPDATED.*



evenchaos said:


> And yes, I would have liked to have seen an all encompassing light - would have been great for outdoor trips when you want to minimize baggage.



There are so many choices for small flashlights that do this job well. If you're going to pack a 1.2 pound "monster" like this, are you really going to notice an LD01 or some other small light in your bag? I also like the idea of having a second light as a backup.

Given the wide range of preferences around here, I don't think there is any such thing as an "all encompassing" light! No matter what you put in it, someone will want something different. For example, to be "all encompassing" for me, it would have to have a 150 mw green laser, and an adjustable level red light for night vision.


----------



## neoseikan (Mar 6, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II*

Thanks to WBP.
He brought a great review for us all:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/224941


----------



## AardvarkSagus (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: 742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II*

Another review up HERE.


----------



## neoseikan (Mar 23, 2009)

One side of Legion II's driver.


----------



## niner (Mar 23, 2009)

Look at the size of the inductor
No wonder it is so efficient:twothumbs


----------



## AardvarkSagus (Mar 23, 2009)

Wow, that is beautiful. Nice work there Neo.


----------



## Illumination (Apr 11, 2009)

*Re: Legion II, the MCE light Pics&comp with M1X*



AardvarkSagus said:


> Stunning. Absolutely stunning. I'm not terribly fond of the mid-range donut but at distance and up close it seems to be gone. Interesting. Can't wait to see this one more.



Agreed, that is the only negative i can see with this light...it seems to be a problem with both the OP and SMO reflectors...maybe this would do better with more stippling or a shim?


----------



## Illumination (Apr 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



easilyled said:


> It may also be just a case of altering the reflector shape a bit to eliminate
> the donut.
> 
> Maybe the curvature of the parabola can be optimised without needing to
> alter the head.



hire Don as a consultant...his reflectors are the best I've seen!


----------



## Illumination (Apr 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Dear Neoseikan and Kurapica;
> 
> I have a pretty good solution to all these bozos giving you hell about lower lows:
> 
> - Simply provide one of these for free with every purchase of a Legion II ==>>



Exactly. I like low lows on small lights, but its not necessary on a handheld 3x18650 light canon!


----------



## Illumination (Apr 11, 2009)

Just finished reading the whole threat. This light is outstanding. Great work guys!


----------



## Patriot (Apr 11, 2009)

*Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!*



Illumination said:


> Exactly. I like low lows on small lights, but its not necessary on a handheld 3x18650 light canon!





Yes, exactly + 8 or whatever it's up to now. This isn't a pocket light and the low mode is plenty low for whatever you'd be using a beefy light for. I've been using the prototype around the house for a week now just to get and idea of what practical use is like and I have no complaints about the output levels. As a mater of fact I think they're next to perfect.


----------



## Vernon (Apr 12, 2009)

Has anyone heard a firm date when the lights will ship. I've heard "May" a few times - does anyone know when in May?


----------



## 9x23 (Apr 13, 2009)

Vernon said:


> Has anyone heard a firm date when the lights will ship. I've heard "May" a few times - does anyone know when in May?



Hello Vernon

Welcome to CPF! FYI here is a link to the official purchase thread in the Marketplace where we've been inquiring about the shipping status and availability. The deliveries have been delayed several times but Flavio @ BugOutGear appears to have received the first production premium version a few days ago. Hopefully we will see more lights soon.

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=191371 

9x23


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## Vernon (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks....it's good to be here. I'll check out the link.


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## Art Vandelay (Apr 29, 2009)




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## MiniLux (Apr 30, 2009)

Just a poor photographer's comparison shot 

From left to right: Fenix TK40, Epsilon ED-P71, Epsilon ED-P72, Legion II
All on max.
Distance from wall: about 1m (3ft).






MiniLux


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## TITAN1833 (Apr 30, 2009)

MiniLux said:


> Just a poor photographer's comparison shot
> 
> From left to right: Fenix TK40, Epsilon ED-P71, Epsilon ED-P72, Legion II
> All on max.
> ...


Thanks for the honest pictures IMO the TK40 takes it much tighter hot spot by far :twothumbs


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## MiniLux (Apr 30, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> Thanks for the honest pictures IMO the TK40 takes it much tighter hot spot by far :twothumbs


 
Fenix TK40, about 60m:








Legion 2, same distance:








MiniLux

_Edit: Replaced first picture, sorry for the double-feature mistake_


----------



## TITAN1833 (Apr 30, 2009)

MiniLux said:


> Fenix TK40, about 60m:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Still tighter IMO :twothumbs


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## niner (Apr 30, 2009)

MiniLux said:


> Fenix TK40, about 60m:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Both pictures link to the same address. Or am I wrong?


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## wbp (Apr 30, 2009)

MiniLux said:


> Fenix TK40, about 60m:
> Legion 2, same distance:
> MiniLux



They appear to be the same image!


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## wbp (Apr 30, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> Still tighter IMO :twothumbs



You mean IMI (as in Imagination)! :devil:


----------



## niner (Apr 30, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> Still tighter IMO :twothumbs


 
Same picture, yet one beam is tighter :thinking::naughty:


----------



## TITAN1833 (Apr 30, 2009)

niner said:


> Same picture, yet one beam is tighter :thinking::naughty:


Nice like I check that s*** 



[edit] guys I have saved the pic's,but! I have to admit I have had a eye test today so beaar with me


----------



## MiniLux (Apr 30, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> Still tighter IMO :twothumbs


 
The Legion has a much deeper reflector than the Fenix.
At short distance, the central spots seem to be about the same, but at long distance the Legion is much more of a thrower as the overall beam remains much tighter, concentrating more light on the target.

On this photo you can see that the spill of the Fenix already covers entirely that of the Legion at about 1m.
Left Fenix TK40, right Legion 2:





Here two more shots at about 15m distance:
Fenix TK40





Legion 2





I tried my best, but it's very difficult to show it with my primitive photo equipment 

MiniLux


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## MiniLux (Apr 30, 2009)

niner said:


> Both pictures link to the same address. Or am I wrong?


 
Outch, you're right, sorry 

Fenix TK40, about 60m




Legion 2, about 60m




Sorry again ...

MiniLux


----------



## Glenn7 (Apr 30, 2009)

MiniLux said:


> Fenix TK40, about 60m:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These might be the same photos - but the bottom one of the two has ether been exposed for longer - or has been lightened up a bit in software - so thats what makes it look slightly different/brighter. 
Automatic cameras can give a dodgy view sometimes - even spill from the beam can change the exposure making a light with both spill and throw seem darker - you should use spot metering so it will read the intensity of the spot of each pic - or better still if you can over ride the auto settings - set camera onto daylight and use the same aperture and exposure each time (ie: iso 400 F4 5-8 second exposure) and use a tripod for both camera and light - then you will have a base line for all future photos and there will be no discrepancies from shot to shot - and even if you sell a light you will have the same settings for future reference.
sorry for rambling :duh2:


----------



## wbp (Apr 30, 2009)

Glenn7 said:


> These might be the same photos - but the bottom one of the two has ether been exposed for longer - or has been lightened up a bit in software - so thats what makes it look slightly different/brighter.



Dude - check the links. They're the same physical file! How can there be a difference??? Unless perhaps your monitor's backlighting is not uniform?


----------



## Glenn7 (Apr 30, 2009)

wbp said:


> Dude - check the links. They're the same physical file! How can there be a difference??? Unless perhaps your monitor's backlighting is not uniform?



 you are right sorry! - I just opened the files and they are the same - it was the angle of viewing of my screen - what a donkey :ironic::tinfoil:


----------



## wbp (Apr 30, 2009)

Glenn7;2938619what a donkey :ironic::tinfoil:[/quote said:


> Hardly! Bet you're using an LCD monitor? Odds are it's brighter at the bottom than at the top... All except the vary expensive ones are like that...


----------



## neoseikan (Apr 30, 2009)

Hi. Minilux, thank you for your pics!

I found that the exposure setting of 2 pics seems different.
The sky is brighter in the beamshot of Tk40.

I think your camera has a "M mode", right?
Use the M mode, you can use the same aperture and shutter setting in different pics.


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## Glenn7 (May 1, 2009)

neoseikan said:


> Hi. Minilux, thank you for your pics!
> 
> I found that the exposure setting of 2 pics seems different.
> The sky is brighter in the beamshot of Tk40.
> ...


Ha ha thats funny theres an echo in here


----------



## MiniLux (May 1, 2009)

Glenn7 said:


> Ha ha thats funny theres an echo in here


 
I corrected the original posting in order to avoid any further echoes :devil:


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (May 1, 2009)

MiniLux said:


> Outch, you're right, sorry
> 
> Fenix TK40, about 60m
> 
> ...


The TK40 got served.


----------



## neoseikan (May 1, 2009)

Hi. What's "get served"? I haven't seen it before and can not find it in my dictionary.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (May 1, 2009)

neoseikan said:


> Hi. What's "get served"? I haven't seen it before and can not find it in my dictionary.


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=you got served&defid=700972

Cheers!


----------



## neoseikan (May 1, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=you got served&defid=700972
> 
> Cheers!



Thank you! I added this dictionary into my favorite .


----------



## Vernon (May 10, 2009)

Neo, good luck on your trip to check out the production of the standard L2. I hope all goes well - we're looking forward to the ship date. If you are able, log in sometime while you're gone and give us an update...thanks!


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## neoseikan (May 13, 2009)

Today, in Hongkong.
Hard to visit internet.
But I made it.
I paid the workshop for the bodies, but still need to wait.
What can we get this time?

1- Longer tube.
2- A regular but good HA finish, not less than Fenix/Jetbeam.
3- Better waterproof.
4- Easier to assemble.

I ask for your kind patient again, this time, it worth waiting.

BTW, I also hope there can be more orders, Legion II is our favorite product, and it worth more than the price you pay.
We can get a TK40 or M1X at the half cost of Legion II, but we choose to produce a geek item, but not a regular one made in China.


----------



## Glenn7 (May 13, 2009)

glad to see they moved Hong Kong out of china  now we can have better quality lights


----------



## TITAN1833 (May 13, 2009)

Glenn7 said:


> glad to see they moved Hong Kong out of china  now we can have better quality lights


LOL 

Neoseikan since you mentioned it there's nothing wrong with fenix or jetbeam lights being made in china both have a good reputation here and also their prices are fair and IMHO very good VFM


----------



## Vernon (May 16, 2009)

Well, it sounds like Neo is making some positive progress in fixing some of the issues with the first round of the Legion II - I guess there are some advantages for those of us still waiting. I would hate to pay $200 for a light and not be able to use my protected cells.


----------



## Glenn7 (May 17, 2009)

hope it comes with a coffee for that donut


----------



## chrisWELD (May 18, 2009)

Vernon said:


> Well, it sounds like Neo is making some positive progress in fixing some of the issues with the first round of the Legion II - I guess there are some advantages for those of us still waiting. I would hate to pay $200 for a light and not be able to use my protected cells.



Hopefully Neo is indeed working through the gremlins at a good rate 

I've been watching this light for a little while (just a few weeks compared to those who've been waiting for months). Very tempting but like many others out there I will wait until all the quality issues are resolved - particularly re the battery fit. 

Once those are solved and the lead time becomes a bit more reasonable then I'd be willing to lay down my dosh (£'s).

That's a reasonable base expectation that a lot of people will require to feel comfortable with placing orders.

It's also a concern that the Spartan II issues are not completely resolved either (previous thread on here somewhere). How long has that been outstanding?


----------



## Ryanrpm (May 18, 2009)

I've always wondered.......where are the Spartanian I and the Legion I?


----------



## AardvarkSagus (May 18, 2009)

They were around somewhere, just nothing all that revolutionary about them so they faded into obscurity. I never really started paying attention until S2 was announced and well underway.


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## MrGman (May 18, 2009)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157615785637890/show/

updated slide show of the Legion II DEFT and EagleTAC M2XC4 Cool R2 triple head amongst others. G


----------



## Ryanrpm (May 18, 2009)

MrGman said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157615785637890/show/
> 
> updated slide show of the Legion II DEFT and EagleTAC M2XC4 Cool R2 triple head amongst others. G


 

Very nice. I had to compare the two for a good solid 5 minutes of going back and forth, but it looks like the M2X has a tad more throw than the Legion. But man, that Legion has spill!


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (May 18, 2009)

MrGman said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157615785637890/show/
> 
> updated slide show of the Legion II DEFT and EagleTAC M2XC4 Cool R2 triple head amongst others. G


Excellent job!

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## MrGman (May 18, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Excellent job!
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


 
Approximately 64.2354672221% of the credit goes to wbp. most of the lights were his and he clicked the button to take the pictures. I held lights, took notes, and then posted them into the slide show.

There will be more to come at another from a future top secret rendevous. G


----------



## bigchelis (May 18, 2009)

MrGman said:


> Approximately 64.2354672221% of the credit goes to wbp. most of the lights were his and he clicked the button to take the pictures. I held lights, took notes, and then posted them into the slide show.
> 
> There will be more to come at another from a future top secret rendevous. G


 
Any chance of holding on to the Deft long enough for me to take a look at it. 

Jose


----------



## MrGman (May 19, 2009)

I don't have the DEFT in my posession. wbp told me he measured it in his 16" sphere system that he built (we cross calibrated them both with various lights some of which I have not listed) and he measured about 200 lumens out the front of it which sounds about right and he was returning it since he was done testing it. 

Considering it has 2 lenses with no AR coatings on them, you have to figure total loss of 4% per surface roughly so there is that, the rear lense collects more light than a single lense system but not necessarily all of it, so a little more loss. I believe it was stated that the LED source was about 240 lumens, so getting 200 out the front isn't bad at all considering the difficulties in accurately measuring a very tight spot light source in a sphere to begin with. But that's what spheres are for. 

So its gone, you don't get to play with it. Just be jealous that I had it in my hands and could see for myself just how tightly focused that beam was, it was actually much larger than I thought. It does put those single lense aspherics to shame. 

Also the wash out of the images due to the extremely high contrast that you see in the picture also reflects what I saw with my eyes as well. It was hard to make out those targets and what was in them because they were so washed out in light compared to the highly contrasted dark area. So I didn't find it all that useful at only 103 yards. Some will argue that just means it even better at 206 yards, maybe so. Its just not that useful to me. If it had a much warmer tint maybe it would have been easier on the eyes. I much prefer the beam patterns of the Legion II and the M2XC4 Triple. I could see getting the triple in a "warm" version. G.


----------



## Ryanrpm (May 19, 2009)

I remember saabluster saying that the DEFT was generating around 350 lumens at the emitter.......hmmm.

But the sphere says OTF is 200. He guessed about 235 or so...

Nice work guys...we all love accuracy.


----------



## HKJ (May 19, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> I remember saabluster saying that the DEFT was generating around 350 lumens at the emitter.......hmmm.
> 
> But the sphere says OTF is 200. He guessed about 235 or so...
> 
> Nice work guys...we all love accuracy.



The DEFT can be used with many different emitters, both cold/warm and XR-E or MC-E, see here for more info: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2905274&postcount=2


----------



## cmacclel (Jul 30, 2009)

So is this light available now?

Mac


----------



## recDNA (Jul 30, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Excellent job!
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


 
How can you tell which is which?


----------



## picard (Jul 30, 2009)

can we get detail shots of the light disassembled?

I want to look at the clicky switch, the tube and the head separately.

Does this light get hot after 1hr use?


----------



## neoseikan (Jul 30, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> So is this light available now?
> 
> Mac



Hi, Mac. If you mean Legion II, yes. available now. but I have used up the drivers in my hand, and I am preparing for another batch. 2~3 weeks in max. (after all, we are working faster and faster.)

@ Picard:

It doesn't have a clicky switch, but a ring.
It get hot quite soon, but won't be too hot with right air flow.
Users are not suggested to disassemble it,
but I might provide some photos about it.


----------



## wbp (Jul 30, 2009)

neoseikan said:


> It get hot quite soon, but won't be too hot with right air flow.



I would say it gets quite warm, but not hot, in normal use. This means with reasonable ventilation and/or being held. If you turn it on and leave it untouched with no air flow, it will get hot to the touch.

During run time testing I ran it for over 2 hours at a sitting with only a PC fan to move some air over it, and it never got hot, just barely warm.


----------



## daberti (Jul 31, 2009)

wbp said:


> I would say it gets quite warm, but not hot, in normal use. This means with reasonable ventilation and/or being held. If you turn it on and leave it untouched with no air flow, it will get hot to the touch.
> 
> During run time testing I ran it for over 2 hours at a sitting with only a PC fan to move some air over it, and it never got hot, just barely warm.


 
I don't feel confortable with a flashlight that relies only on external factors for cooling. I.e.: to my understanding it should implement 
1)the best possible mechanical heat dissipation
2)the best possible (see RA Lights and others) electronic thermal management

Not always flashlight are used or can be used in ventilated areas or simply kept in hands, exploiting blood circulation :thumbsdow


----------



## neoseikan (Jul 31, 2009)

daberti said:


> I don't feel confortable with a flashlight that relies only on external factors for cooling. I.e.: to my understanding it should implement
> 1)the best possible mechanical heat dissipation
> 2)the best possible (see RA Lights and others) electronic thermal management
> 
> Not always flashlight are used or can be used in ventilated areas or simply kept in hands, exploiting blood circulation :thumbsdow



After all, Legion II is the best one among MC-E/P7 lights. (less energy wasted than all others. ) We can use it even without wind or hand. but it's not a good way to keep the health of LED.


----------



## daberti (Jul 31, 2009)

neoseikan said:


> After all, Legion II is the best one among MC-E/P7 lights. (less energy wasted than all others. ) We can use it even without wind or hand. but it's not a good way to keep the health of LED.


 
No doubt about circuitry efficiency, mate 
No doubt at all.
Yet -IMHO- a flashlight at this level should implement each and every measure to ensure led is protected even in worst case environment usage.
Just an advice though


----------



## applevision (Jul 31, 2009)

Not to defend Neo, but I have to say that what we want is lights that push the envelope. You cannot have all things. I mean, if you run the light at lower power it will (presumably) not require any external cooling at all. It's just that we're pushing SERIOUS power on high and the trade off is that no passive cooling can do the full job, no matter how well-designed. 

I think that as a group of flashlight enthusiasts, we're all more than comfortable with this type of trade off and even more extreme trade offs such as only being able to use a 'turbo mode' for a few minutes in order to avoid damaging a light or cell. Neo has made an amazing light that is one of the most efficient and well-regulated in the history of lights! There is no risk of damage to the LED or light so long as you are keeping an eye on it for too much heat. Doing the most natural thing in the world (holding it in your hand) solves this problem completely such that the only issue would be tablestanding it for an hour on the highest mode. 

:goodjob:

As soon as we get a couple of good reviews on the Standard Edition (and some assurances that the "flow" is going to be sustained and not a 3 month wait again...) for me it will be:




Note: I've been pretty critical of Neo for awhile, but it's only because he's made something that I really WANT and LUST FOR and I've been frustrated by all the shenanigans. Let me say, with no ego, that if he makes the light we are expecting him to make, all of my angst will be erased and my money and gratitude will be his!


----------



## neoseikan (Jul 31, 2009)

applevision said:


> Not to defend Neo, but I have to say that what we want is lights that push the envelope. You cannot have all things. I mean, if you run the light at lower power it will (presumably) not require any external cooling at all. It's just that we're pushing SERIOUS power on high and the trade off is that no passive cooling can do the full job, no matter how well-designed.
> 
> I think that as a group of flashlight enthusiasts, we're all more than comfortable with this type of trade off and even more extreme trade offs such as only being able to use a 'turbo mode' for a few minutes in order to avoid damaging a light or cell. Neo has made an amazing light that is one of the most efficient and well-regulated in the history of lights! There is no risk of damage to the LED or light so long as you are keeping an eye on it for too much heat. Doing the most natural thing in the world (holding it in your hand) solves this problem completely such that the only issue would be tablestanding it for an hour on the highest mode.
> 
> ...



Thank you! applevision.
The heat will be really a problem when we use SST-90. It will be 9A!
Supposed we provide a light with 5A+ output, how do you think setting a turbo mode for it and turn to 2.5A- after a few minutes?


----------



## daberti (Jul 31, 2009)

applevision said:


> Not to defend Neo, but I have to say that what we want is lights that push the envelope. You cannot have all things. I mean, if you run the light at lower power it will (presumably) not require any external cooling at all. It's just that we're pushing SERIOUS power on high and the trade off is that no passive cooling can do the full job, no matter how well-designed............cut


 
I respect your approach. There are points I do share and other points I don't.
Would I buy this flashlight basing on the above mentioned trade-off?
No.
All in all we cannot ignore one basic fact: integrating electronic thermal protection is well within reaching to Neo's electronic knowledge and could spread this flashlight potential market to search and rescue applications (where hands need to be free more than often), inspection into hazardous/explosive places and I might continue...

More market means more $$$$$ and I'm quite sure Neo seeks for that too 

Beyond that, at these amperage heat IS ACTUALLY a problem, that should be acknowledged (and it is already) and addressed.
Would this magnificent flashlight implement a thermal management like (not necessarily identical to) the one of HDS/Novatac/Ra I would buy hands down


----------



## bigchelis (Jul 31, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> I remember saabluster saying that the DEFT was generating around 350 lumens at the emitter.......hmmm.
> 
> But the sphere says OTF is 200. He guessed about 235 or so...
> 
> Nice work guys...we all love accuracy.


 

The deft is using paper specs for an R2 driven at 1.5A.

Heatsinking becomes an issue in even Mag builds as me and MrGman have seen. Even some lights which are extremely expensive and well made when heat becomes an issue the out the front lumens suffer. MrGman tested several of my multiple R2 lights and it was very apparent that too much heat  the potential lumen output. 

My Nailbender Mag R2 build gained 10 out the front lumens when driven at 1A vs. 1.4A. Also, The 1.4A driver after 3 minutes the R2 had lost about 30% of its initial lumens. The 1A driver on the R2 started 10 lumens higher and stayed there with almost no drop even after 3 minutes.

More current = more heat
More heat = potentially less lumens

I still need a DEFT and a Leggion II in my collection:twothumbs


----------



## MrGman (Jul 31, 2009)

This is of course all true but I don't believe that the Legion II is being overdriven and has a heatsink problem in general. I know that the entire flashlight design was made such to provide massive heatsinking to the LED as best as possible. In general its an excellent and very stable design.

I have never asked specifically if it has current fold back built in when the chip is getting too hot? On the other hand I can only see it getting too hot in an application where the ambient temperature around it is above 100F. Plus no one is forcing the end user to keep it at the highest setting. If heat from long term operation is an issue it has 5 different power levels, the operator can simply CHOOSE to start coming down to lower levels and cut back on the power. Isn't that part of the reason its there??? Don't have to be in Turbo mode all the time.

This is never going to be an explosion proof class or firefighters flashlight as its a metal case that can create sparks. It has 3 large lithium batteries that can explode in a situation where they are getting cooked. If it was to be used in a fire fighting situation it would transfer heat too well and fry the inside of it as well as burn the hands of anyone trying to use it without gloves, so this isn't an emergency personnel flashlight to be anyway. 

And the truth is that no regulated LED flashlight would be really good for that application because in a very hot area where ambient temperature is well above 75F past 120F the drive circuitry or the phophors on the die and the die are going to start roasting because they need cooling (since they are well above ambient already from applied power) whereas any incandescent lamp doesn't care about outside air temperature, the filament is running at over 900C to make light anyway. No one would be putting a 14 watt LED drive circuit type flashlight in a plastic housing to insulate it as it needs cooling and no one is worried about blowing a krypton lamp in a regular incan. If the high tech LED flashlight had the best thermal protection circuitry then it would really shut down in areas of extreme heat and never be useable anyway, or fold back to about 1 watt of output which would make it meaningless to have versus a cheap old incan light. So my point is that most high power LED flashlights don't have to be built to be used in high temp applications such as for a fire fighter as it would be contradictory to their design and use anyway. Referring back to some of daberti's potential search and rescue or explosive/hazardous situation type applications. This class of flashlight will never get used anyway.


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## AardvarkSagus (Jul 31, 2009)

neoseikan said:


> Thank you! applevision.
> The heat will be really a problem when we use SST-90. It will be 9A!
> Supposed we provide a light with 5A+ output, how do you think setting a turbo mode for it and turn to 2.5A- after a few minutes?


Excellent! Can't wait to see an SST-90 version. I don't know that you should push it at the full 9A though without some kind of active heat management. That's a serious amount of heat that will be generated there. Automatically stepping down to 2.5A when it warms up enough sounds like a good idea to me.


applevision said:


> As soon as we get a couple of good reviews on the Standard Edition (and some assurances that the "flow" is going to be sustained and not a 3 month wait again...) for me it will be:


As for the reviews of the standard version, I am hoping to be able to help out with that one, but I don't yet know if it will happen.


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## daberti (Jul 31, 2009)

MrGman said:


> This is of course all true but I don't believe that the Legion II is being overdriven and has a heatsink problem in general. I know that the entire flashlight design was made such to provide massive heatsinking to the LED as best as possible. In general its an excellent and very stable design.
> 
> I have never asked specifically if it has current fold back built in when the chip is getting too hot? On the other hand I can only see it getting too hot in an application where the ambient temperature around it is above 100F. Plus no one is forcing the end user to keep it at the highest setting. If heat from long term operation is an issue it has 5 different power levels, the operator can simply CHOOSE to start coming down to lower levels and cut back on the power. Isn't that part of the reason its there??? Don't have to be in Turbo mode all the time.
> 
> ...


 
So many good points! Of course I'd never use a led flashlight in fire or high temp environments.
Search and rescue: think about it. In woods or in the mountains, you need massive output to spot an injured or lost man. This is a very common situation in the Alps, very near where I live. Headlamps would not be enough, yet you need both hands to climb...you don't need to have to think about what the flashlight needs not to fry the led, but you would need its best output, anyway.

Saying that manually choosing a lower level would prevent from having any heating issue equals to say that such a level is to be considered as the max continuous output.
So, once again back we are to the problem: output is nothing without a steady discharge curve (which Neo achieved) and output but even less if it cannot be kept stably in the worst of the typical working conditions +without any cooling at all.
I suspect that potentially explosive battery chemistry equipped devices could never get across EU borders without evident proof of any measure to avoid these events being adopted.


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## sjalbrec (Jul 31, 2009)

daberti said:


> So many good points! Of course I'd never use a led flashlight in fire or high temp environments.
> Search and rescue: think about it. In woods or in the mountains, you need massive output to spot an injured or lost man. This is a very common situation in the Alps, very near where I live. Headlamps would not be enough, yet you need both hands to climb...


 

hmmm, i would think walking in the woods or mountains (in the alps :duh2 would be considered a well ventilated area. the legion II should have no problems running at full power even going through multiple sets of batteries.

also, i haven't encountered a search & rescue paradigm where you would endanger the team by having them climb (needing both hands), in very poor lighting conditions, and relying only on self-illumination. now, if you were referring to a cave rescue, in which cavern do you need hands-free throw of 100+ meters??

sorry, don't mean to flame - but i guess i don't understand your agenda here? :shrug:


oh wait, now i see! neoseikan, i can't believe you didn't design the legion II for a lone climber attempting to rescue someone from the steep side of an erupting volcano! shame on you! 







oh, on second thought - that pesky lava throws a lot of ambient light


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## gsxrac (Jul 31, 2009)

Hey Neo would it be correct to believe that the the turnaround time if I were to order a light today is about 3 weeks?


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## neoseikan (Jul 31, 2009)

gsxrac said:


> Hey Neo would it be correct to believe that the the turnaround time if I were to order a light today is about 3 weeks?



YES.


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## gsxrac (Jul 31, 2009)

Sweet! Thanks for the info. I think I might just have to grab an L2 instead of the Surefire M6 I was planning on!


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## daberti (Aug 1, 2009)

sjalbrec said:


> hmmm, i would think walking in the woods or mountains (in the alps :duh2 would be considered a well ventilated area. the legion II should have no problems running at full power even going through multiple sets of batteries.
> 
> also, i haven't encountered a search & rescue paradigm where you would endanger the team by having them climb (needing both hands), in very poor lighting conditions, and relying only on self-illumination. now, if you were referring to a cave rescue, in which cavern do you need hands-free throw of 100+ meters??
> 
> ...


 
Not so ventilated in these days mate: we've very high humidity and 30°C at 1200mt, you can bet it is an exception, yet .....

Anyway: from now on my decision is to buy only flashlights with electronic thermal management. I'm referring to those who cost more than 120USD as a reference price. There are more than one on the market.
Unfortunately I've had one of those very rare catastrophic failures last summer in Tuscany, with a 1x123 torch used in candlemode (well far away from table) while having dinner and a blackout of 20minutes. Those minutes were more than enough to experience a bang even if flashlight was used at the level immediately below max. We were in the garden (150mtx150mt with no trees around), we were in the 29°C with a steady breeze. None had been injured, but from then on I'm quite picky...

Yes, choosing the level below (or two levels) may help and as a FAC License owner I do know that the first safety is always in your mind. I do know that a handgun is not made to be dropped down, yet none would object that the striker safety is just overkill...or not?

Edit
Or would someone argue that ABS is useless because normally it does NOT kick in if you don't turn yourself into an "Everyday Schumacher"? My story is something pretty different. I'm a responsible driver, I respect rules, I'm not a junk and I use my car to go back and forth from/to my customers, I make nearly 600mls every working week (5days) to this extent and this device saved me at a bare minimum from crashes more than once.

Worth saying that everyone is entitled to purchase and use flashlights at their will. Period.
And I'm not saying that this one suffers from lacks of either mechanical or electronical design. I'm not entitled to, because I should buy one and test in my normal environment, in a variety of ambient temperature, humidity, wind, holding (grip) combinations. 
I'm saying that the lack of what from specs I can argue actually lacks -electronical thermal control- combined with acknowledged overheating problems in some conditions keep me off from buying. 
Shortly: I use flashlights for real world needings. Trekking, emergency, work. When I need to use them I need to know they can be used, without having to pay my attention to anything else than having them serving my needs and not vice-versa.

Beyond that, such a thermal control would ensure the best lifetime as possible to the led.
Technology is available. So my own decision has been made.

Your mileage may vary though


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## Vernon (Aug 10, 2009)

I recieved my light this past Wednesday - thanks to the guy in TX who forwarded the light to me! After using the L2 for a few nights, I'm very impressed with the finish, balance, UI, and output. Though the wait was arduous and sometimes frustrating, I think Neo has finally found the right mix of quality and design to make a near perfect product. 

My light arrived with zero flaws. The only thing missing was a little lube on the threads, but that was easy to take care of myself. The finish is perfect and the HA color matches throughout. I popped three Tenergy cells in, turned the ring, and enjoyed the rediculously bright, even beam. The UI is very easy and intuative - it's quite simple to customize the setting as well. 

Compared to my Eagletac M2 (3xQ3), the MC-E in the L2 produces a more balanced diffused beam with the OP reflector but still has the ability to throw like the M2. The donut produced by the MC-E is minimal (if even noticable at all). My initial thoughts are that I like the L2 much better: it's more balanced, feels much more solid in my hand, the UI and selector ring are superior, and frankly it just looks better. The only thing I prefer with the M2 is the fact that I chose the Q3 warm tint option - really nice outside in the woods.

I knew from the beginning that I was "funding" a new project for Neo so I didn't get my hopes up too high and the six month wait didn't bother me too much. However, I do agree that all of our friends who invested in the premium version should be well taken care of! If it weren't for you, I might not be enjoying my standard version right now.


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## Tempsho (Aug 12, 2009)

Is there any kind of warranty offered with this light? I didn't come across any mention of it.


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## Armed_Forces (Aug 12, 2009)

Tempsho said:


> Is there any kind of warranty offered with this light? I didn't come across any mention of it.


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## Armed_Forces (Aug 12, 2009)

..OK, now that I've gathered myself up, the warranty is best expressed by "Caveat emptor". 
If your latin/law is a little weak, my previous post says it all really. 




P.S. PM Flavio (BugoutGear) and ask him how's it going? 

..or just about ANYONE on the "premium" list. :ironic:


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## neoseikan (Aug 12, 2009)

edited.


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## neoseikan (Aug 12, 2009)

Armed_Forces said:


> ..OK, now that I've gathered myself up, the warranty is best expressed by "Caveat emptor".
> If your latin/law is a little weak, my previous post says it all really.
> 
> 
> ...



Flavio will get a new light in the next batch. And others need new SS tailcaps. Some function bugs have been fixed.
And this time, when I have enough stock of unlimited version, people ordered it have found about it.


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## bengaltiger (Sep 15, 2009)

Hi neoseikan,

I want to buy a Legion II MC-E (standard version).

How many days I have to wait to get it any idea?

How much I have to pay if I pay using Paypal?

To other users in EU:


Do you know about the tax in customs?
If I ordered then probably I have to pay the tax in customs.
How is the experience of other users.
Which one is preferred way of paying?

Thanks,
BT


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## jahxman (Sep 15, 2009)

bengaltiger,

This question should be posed in the marketplace, not here.


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## maxilux (Sep 16, 2009)

bengaltiger said:


> Hi neoseikan,
> 
> I want to buy a Legion II MC-E (standard version).
> 
> ...



Why do you not ask one the European distributors ?

at example: www.schiermeier.biz in Germany


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## darmawaa (Sep 20, 2009)

Any SST-50 or 90 version?


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## jahxman (Sep 20, 2009)

darmawaa said:


> Any SST-50 or 90 version?


Neoseikan has apparently made a sst-50 prototype based on the existing design, and has longer range plans for a SST-90 based light, however the SST-90 will probably require a different host for heat control.


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## ace0001a (May 8, 2010)

jahxman said:


> Neoseikan has apparently made a sst-50 prototype based on the existing design, and has longer range plans for a SST-90 based light, however the SST-90 will probably require a different host for heat control.



I am going to get mine upgraded to the SST-50 and I'm looking forward to actually see an improved Legion II.

Here's a UI video I noticed they put on their website:

http://neo-fab.com/media/legion2.AVI


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## Winx (May 9, 2010)

The head of my Premium #07 is getting an upgrade for SST-50.

I sent the head 6 months ago :thumbsdow.


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## neoseikan (May 9, 2010)

Winx said:


> The head of my Premium #07 is getting an upgrade for SST-50.
> 
> I sent the head 6 months ago :thumbsdow.



Hi, Winx. Sorry for that. When we received your L2, we found a problem.
The limited version use a different shape in the driver, so that there are some difficulty on replacing the drivers, and then we forgot that for a long time.
When the new batch drivers are done, we will upgrade yours asap, is that OK?


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## Winx (May 9, 2010)

neoseikan said:


> Hi, Winx. Sorry for that. When we received your L2, we found a problem.
> The limited version use a different shape in the driver, so that there are some difficulty on replacing the drivers, and then we forgot that for a long time.
> When the new batch drivers are done, we will upgrade yours asap, is that OK?



Sure.


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## wolfy (Jun 5, 2010)

Just got mine yesterday, the Legion II SST-50 is fantastic, produces such a nice light. Thanks Neo. :thumbsup:

Small thing, my UltraFire 3000mAh 18650 batteries seem a little large to screw the cap on fully.


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## neoseikan (Jun 6, 2010)

_Thread closed as a violation of CPF's advertising policy_


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