# Key Fobs



## Monocrom (Feb 1, 2009)

Here's one that's becoming more and more common.... As a matter of fact, if a child was lucky enough to have been born into a rich family, they already will miss out on the following:

*Cars that start by inserting a key into their ignitions.*

I'm in the market for a new car. Certain models that aren't even expensive luxury cars are now using "push-button start" instead of keys.

And every automotive review I've ever read, either posted by a car magazine editor or a regular person who bought a car with push-button start, praises this utterly useless feature. Actually, it's worse than useless....

You can tell your grand-children about the time you accidentally locked your keys in the car, and didn't have a spare key in your wallet. You can tell them about how you had to call the cops, and how they had to use a slim-jim to help you out by breaking into your own car. 

Funniest example of that which I remember was nearly a decade ago in my old neighborhood. Walking past the small parking lot of a supermarket, two cops were trying to open an elderly person's car door with a slim-jim. They had no luck. A young man who worked in the supermarket came out , and offered to help. In mere seconds, he popped the lock open. And then looked at the crowd, saying with a smile; "I'm not a theif, folks." The two cops just laughed, so did the rest of the crowd.

When key-fobs were created that allowed for key-less entry, that was a great feature. You opened your door after parking your ride, and the car would beep; reminding you to take your key out the ignition. And the nice part was, you had a key back-up in case the fob got damaged; so that you could still unlock the door.

Here's the problem with "push-button start," cars that use it; don't have a key back-up for the ignition. If your fob fails, you're stranded! Not as though cops can be called and slim-jim your electronic ignition system. And how can the new fobs fail? I got my hands on a 2009 Nissan Altima owners manual from a rental unit. 

Fob failures include:

1) Contact with water or salt water.

2) Being placed too near a cellphone.

3) An area with a lot of radio-wave activity can prevent your fob from working properly.

4) Dying batteries in your fob.

Ironically, there's only a back-up in place in case #4 takes place. (I already know of an individual who's Altima wouldn't start due to #2).

Here's the thing, an actual metal key is not affected by any of the above. But at least a push-button start looks cool. A comforting thought, as you wait for the tow-truck driver to arrive due to the fact that you have no way to access the ignition system in your car. (The fobs do have a hidden key built into them, but the key only works for the doors and trunk).


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## Burgess (Feb 1, 2009)

Very interesting thread you've started, Monocrom !





Never realized this . . . .


Haven't been "car shopping" for more than a decade.



But, i *Can't Believe* they aren't making those 

new Car-Fobs to be *WaterPROOF *!


:shakehead

_


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## 65535 (Feb 1, 2009)

I have keyless door locks and a keyless ignition system. 

BUT the ignition system is just a modified keyed ignition. With the fob within the limits of the frame of the car (haven't tested the trunk yet) the ignition is active. It is a black plastic knob that you turn. Now for the fun part. The drivers door has a key hole for the key that slides into the FOB. The black knob that is the ignition can be popped of (with no damage) and the key can be used in the STANDARD keyed igntion switch. No push buttons.

Also with the key fox within 3 feet or so of the door handle (front doors both sides) a sensor in the handle can sense your hand and will unlock the car. The same fob distance rule applies with a little black button on the door handle that is used to lock the car. The trunk has an unlock button to and it uses the same 3 foot sensor.

Door unlocking and those kinds of thing are programmed into the onboard computer with it's touch screen.

This is my Lancer 09 GTS. Fun little features that make life easier and in no way stop you from getting into your car or driving it without a work key fob.


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## Monocrom (Feb 2, 2009)

Burgess said:


> Very interesting thread you've started, Monocrom !


 
Thanks. 

But the credit actually belongs to Empath, who turned it into its own topic. (It was first posted in the "Things that today's kids will miss out on" topic).

As far as water-proofing goes, something like that is far more understandable than the key-fob malfunctioning due to being too close to a cellphone. If the fob is inside your pants pockets while going through the rinse cycle, you know you'll have to grab the spare one. But you never know if the cellphone will be an issue.

According to the owner's manual of the 2009 Altima, being close to a cellphone _may _cause the fob to malfunction. Won't happen all the time, but you never know when it might.

The technology is available now, but it hasn't advanced to the point of being as reliable as a key. And why there's no key back-up in place, I'll never understand. Nissan is not the only company that has done this.


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## Norm (Feb 2, 2009)

Funny about the starter button being seen as something modern, I remember converting my 1937 Ford to key start because I wanted to be modern.  
Norm


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## Big_Ed (Feb 2, 2009)

All this high tech replacement for a set of keys is a bit overboard in my opinion. How much will it cost to get another one if that one breaks, malfunctions or gets lost? I like to have several spare keys for my car, just in case I lose mine, or something. I was a bit miffed that my GM car has one of those "chips" in the key that drives the price of a replacement key to well over $20, and it can only be made by the dealer or certain locksmiths. The hardware store can't make the key for me. How much will it cost to repair if the sensor or some part of the car that is related to that key fob fails? I bet it'll cost tons more than in a car that doesn't need one. And what is really gained by having one of those keyless ignition fobs? Bells and whistles, that probably drove up the price of the car to start with. You still have to have it with you to get in and start the car. You just don't have to stick the key in the hole and turn, right?
Also, what happens if your battery dies? Is there some sort of back up system that will allow you to get in the car? 
I hope I never buy a car that has one of those. Ok, rant over!


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## sunsync (Feb 2, 2009)

Truly overboard, I have two cars with pushbutton starters, and frankly can do without this feature!! Its kind of cool to walk up to the car and not have to get your keys or fob out to unlock and start the car, but after the coolness factor wears off, you are left with many potential problems as Monocrom listed. The best feature of the system on the Corvette is that it can be programmed to lock itself, in fact if you remote lock it using the fob, it does not set the alarm (at least the way I have mine programmed), so it's preferable to let the car lock itself. 

There is a fail-safe entry path for the Vette: a keyed lock that enables you to open the hatch (not sure about convertibles), that enables you to pull a cable, that activiates a latch, that unlocks the door. Phew! At that point, if you cannot start the car because the battery is dead, it does not allow you to close and lock the door properly so you can go for help without exposing yourself to an easy break-in. 

I've had much practice utilizing this emergency procedure because of a parasitic drain that kills the battery. GM has tried but cannot fix this particular problem on the early C-6 Vettes. Therefore, I really do wish for the simplicity of a normal keyed ignition, without all the gimmicks and potential for problems. 

My Toyota hybrid also has a pushbuttom starter, which typical of most Japanese products works much better than "Made in USA" (custom flashlight builders excepted). I have constantly been punished for trying to buy USA and if it did not cost so many jobs, I'd just as soon see GM go out of business, selling off their various divisions to smaller entrepreneurs; although I know that is not really going to work either. Back to the Toyota, it also has a fail-safe mechanism to get you into the car with a dead fob, but you are SOL if missing the fob. With both cars, once you are inside, even with a dead fob, you can plug it into a receptical for the ignition system to read the code and let you start the car - that is assuming your car battery is not dead in the first place. If it were an option, I would never order a pushbutton starter. BTW, to add insult to injury, a replacement fob is usually in the order of $200+ .


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## Monocrom (Feb 3, 2009)

Paid a visit to a Mazda dealer today. First thing I asked the sales-lady was if the Mazda 6 has a key back-up for the push-button starter. I know that the two lowest trim levels for the '09 Mazda 6 use a traditional key ignition. Other trim levels use a push-button start that is located at the bottom of the center stack, just to the left. The spot for the key ignition is covered with a piece of plastic on the higher trim lines.

Turns out, the 6 does have a key back-up.

Nice to see that someone over at Mazda thought of the same potential problems that I mentioned. (Too bad no one at Nissan did). 

After I try out the push-button start on the 6, I'm popping that plastic covering off and trying out the traditional ignition. I scheduled a test drive for 3 days from now. 

Also.... The fob on the Nissan Altima can be inserted into a slot just to the left and below the steering wheel. If the batteries in the fob are dying, you can still start your car. But as sunsync pointed out, won't do you any good if the car battery is dead. So you don't get an improvement over a traditional key. You just get a cool factor and extra disadvantages.


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## brucec (Feb 3, 2009)

If the car battery is dead, keyed ignition isn't going to work either.

Which brings up something I never thought about. Is it possible to push start (pop the clutch) a Corvette with a keyless ignition system?

The new proximity fobs are nice because you don't have to remove the key from your pocket. The stupid ones were the ones that still required you to shove the fob into a rectangular slot in the dash and then press another button to start.

In the future when everybody is RFID tagged, everything will be keyless opening.


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## Monocrom (Feb 3, 2009)

brucec said:


> If the car battery is dead, keyed ignition isn't going to work either.


 
That was one of my points in my earlier post. It's not as though you get an additional benefit from using the fob. If the car battery is dead, you're stuck. Not as though inserting the fob into the right slot will power up your car so you can drive home or to a mechanic's shop.

No real advantages over using a key, just a bunch of disadvantages that could leave you stranded.


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## Steve K (Feb 3, 2009)

brucec said:


> Which brings up something I never thought about. Is it possible to push start (pop the clutch) a Corvette with a keyless ignition system?



Is it possible to push-start any car that has an electronic control module (i.e. fuel injection is controlled by electronics)? If you don't have power for the electronics, my guess is that you won't have any fuel and thereby it's not going to start.

This is certainly an argument for replacing the car battery on a regular schedule instead of just waiting for it to die. ...or an argument for owning a vehicle with no electronics. There is something appealing about the old '63 Chevy pick-up truck I drove in high school. Extremely simple and reliable. Horrible emissions, I suspect, and safety wasn't its strong suit. And you have to be ready to replace points and spark plugs on a very regular basis. 

Steve K.


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## brucec (Feb 3, 2009)

Steve K said:


> Is it possible to push-start any car that has an electronic control module (i.e. fuel injection is controlled by electronics)?


 
I think so... I had a 2001 model VW GTI VR6 before that I push started a few times. Among other more serious QC issues, that car's battery wouldn't last a month without driving, but at least it was fairly easy to push start. I think the computer controlled the fuel injection, but I could be wrong. Or are you referring to the new direct injection engines? I haven't had any issues with those.

I'm 35, so I have never driven anything dating from the 60's, but I do have an orange 1975 Yamaha RD350 motorcycle. I don't think vehicles get any simpler than that one: kick-start, 2-stroke, separate oil reservoir, rear DRUM brake, single front disc brake, lots of blue-gray smoke, etc. I bought it in 2002 as the second owner with only 8000 original miles on it. Up to about 30mph, it can still keep up with a modern 600cc crotch-rocket. It gets a bit jittery above 60mph, though.


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## 65535 (Feb 3, 2009)

I think what he means is: is there a way to get ACC or ON power to the car without a working pushbutton. Most batteries that die will still power the computer and all the circuits just not enough juice to crank the engine. So will is there a way to get juice to the necessary components without enough to crank the engine so you can push start?


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## Steve K (Feb 4, 2009)

65535 said:


> I think what he means is: is there a way to get ACC or ON power to the car without a working pushbutton. Most batteries that die will still power the computer and all the circuits just not enough juice to crank the engine. So will is there a way to get juice to the necessary components without enough to crank the engine so you can push start?



Maybe there's a gray area here... I assumed that people were talking about batteries so dead that the RFID circuits that read the key fob weren't working. To me, that means that the ECU doesn't work either, so there won't be any fuel injected. 

When I say "fuel injected", that includes both direct injection and injection into the port or intake manifold. Anything else requires a carburator, I believe. My last carburated vehicle was a '84 Datsun pickup, and I don't miss having it gum up or having the floats quit floating. My current car is a '96 Acura Integra, which still uses a mechanical key, and I'm pretty happy with it. Why would I need to unlock my car from 20 feet away?? I'm pretty sure I'll be standing next to it in a few seconds anyway. Yeah, I'm a bit of a Luddite, but I don't see the attraction of the key fobs.

Steve K.


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## NA8 (Feb 5, 2009)

What happens if you try to bypass the system and install a keyed lock ?


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## Monocrom (Feb 5, 2009)

NA8 said:


> What happens if you try to bypass the system and install a keyed lock ?


 
I'm not even sure if that's possible. And if it is, I'm guessing it would be horribly expensive to get someone with the knowledge and ability to pull that off.


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## Steve K (Feb 5, 2009)

NA8 said:


> What happens if you try to bypass the system and install a keyed lock ?



Most of the systems are tied into the ECU, and I would assume/guess that there is some sort of communications protocol that has to take place. Not as simple as just applying power and going. You'd probably need to ask the manufacturer if you want an authoritative answer. They might offer such an option, but it seems unlikely.

Steve K.


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## brucec (Feb 5, 2009)

NA8 said:


> What happens if you try to bypass the system and install a keyed lock ?



I don't think that would work. Isn't one of the points of the key fob to provide greater security? If so, I doubt if it would be so easy to bypass.


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## Eugene (Feb 5, 2009)

Most vehicles with a key lock have some sort of electronic security system, for example the chip in the key. Now newer systems there is no chip in the key, for example the Corvette mentioned above will have GM's newer system where there are hall effect sensors in each of the lock pins. These give a different voltage depending on how far away the cut in the key is so as you turn the key past run to start it induces a small voltage for each cut in the key and the system compares that to whats stored. So if you push start that corvette the computer will just shut it down since it doesn't read the key. My wife's Impala wouldn't start one day and I was troubleshooting it and stuck a screwdriver across the starter terminals to crank it that way and it started then shut off after a couple seconds. I towed it home and then it started the next time I tried with the key. It did the same thing a few months later and I had read that the behavior of the security system so I had her pull the key out and flip it over and turn to run for the 10 minutes required to relearn and it then started. I had a new key cut and its been fine since, it appears that the key was wearing on one side causing misreads.

Now there is a reason for these keyless push button start. The .gov is mandating no engine idle time in a couple years so manufacturers are getting ready. First step was letting the computer control the starter, the start position on the key switch goes into the computer which then controls the starter relay. You can see this by turning the key to start for a real short time and letting go and the computer will keep cranking the extra second until the engine starts. Next step is the throttle by wire so when you push the throttle the computer can then start the larger starter which gets the vehicle rolling and the engine started and then opens the throttle to match where your foot is on the pedal. Next step is switching most of the accessories over to electric such as power steering and power brakes. Finally they replace the started with a larger one that can move the vehicle and start the engine. Essentially mild hybrid technology going into every vehicle. the push button is just another implementation of the computer controller starter, eventually those vehicles will be like the Toyota prius and other hybrids where pressing start will just turn on the instruments and such but not start the engine until you start moving.


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## Big_Ed (Feb 5, 2009)

So, would you still be able to warm up your car on a frigid morning, with ice on all the windows? It's a necessary thing for those of us who park outside in the winter.


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## Monocrom (Feb 6, 2009)

Test drove the Mazda 6 yesterday. Dealership didn't have the V6 trim level I wanted, so I test drove an upgraded V6 trim (Grand Touring).

The plastic over the keyed ignition is a very tasteful clear plastic that's frosted over. I didn't pull it out to test the key-ignition. Found out that the V6 trim I'm interested in, has no push-button start in place. That's fine by me!

For an extra $940; you get 18-inch tires instead of 17, chrome exhaust tips, and key-less start. Yeah.... I think I'm going to have to go ahead, and save an extra grand. The vast majority of that $940 is for the push-button start. Funny how the sales-person kept trying to convince me to get the next higher trim level, in order to get the push-button start. She was smart enough to abandon that tactic when I made it clear that I could live without it. 

More to come on Monday, when I go in to talk about price....


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## Cydonia (Feb 6, 2009)

Yes Monocrom, this is all part and parcel of the "retrograde" progress I'm always talking about. Introducing dangerous failure modes for the sake of "innovation" to wow a "dumb and getting dumber" marketplace that chases fads. Only no one sees the failure modes. A narrow straw like tunnel vision of "newer is better" dominates everything :laughing:


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## Monocrom (Feb 17, 2009)

Time for an update.

As far as the Mazda 6 goes, I got the trim level I wanted at a sweet price. Even got them to throw in a few dealer installed options. (Without "upgrading" to the Touring model, for nearly $1200 more). Turns out the trim level I wanted does come with chrome exhaust tips after all. Price was negotiated last Monday, picked up the car this Monday; couldn't be happier.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I also found my notes regarding the '09 Nissan Altima's owner's manual. And the specific details about what could cause an Altima not to start when you need it to. Not sure if it would be copyright infringement to type out what is contained word-for-word in the manual. Don't want to break the CPF rules against that, so I'll just paraphrase.

The following _may _cause your Nissan Altima to not start, due to not being able to recognize your key fob as the proper one:

*Fob gets wet. (Either salt water or just water).

*Dropping your key fob on a hard surface. (Such as the sidewalk).

*Hitting your key fob against another solid object. (Don't get angry and take it out on your fob by throwing it up against a wall).

*Your Nissan key fob likes magnets about as much as vampires like the Sun. (Never the two shall meet).

*TVs and PCs put out a magnetic field. (Just like magnets, be sure to keep your key fob far away from those things.... and anything else that puts out a magnetic field).

As you can see, an old-fashioned key is not going to be bothered by any of the above. Push-button start only vehicles are great for Formula 1 racers. If the ignition doesn't start, they have a whole pit crew, technical advisors, and guys who get paid big bucks to fix the problem on the spot. Average commuters are left to fend for themselves, if something goes wrong. 

I love my new car.... and the key that came with it.


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## mpteach (Oct 18, 2009)

Talk about failure modes. Recently the key to my dads 02 tundra wore down. After oiling and jiggling the key like crazy it would work sometimes. He had to get a new one made from the vin number. Years ago a key actually broke of in the lock and a locksmith was needed to get it out The wires in my dads 98 montecarlo ignition switch broke and had to be replaced.IM guessing RFID will last longer than mechanical keys which can wear down over time and have the weight of a keychain on them.

However it only cost him $3 to make a new toyota key from the vin . My 01maxima ignition key has a transponder for security unlike his. Since i dont have an extra key i will pay a tow to the dealer and have them cut my keys and program them to the ECU. They charge $60 each for their keys (though the basic ones on ebay can be had for $15 each shipped) and $50 for the ecu programing which i cant do on ebay. Some dealers want $100 for programing.


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## Monocrom (Oct 18, 2009)

To be honest, I still prefer the simplicity of an old-fashioned ignition. Sure one of those can fail. The one on my '98 Ford Escort failed one day. But it failed in the "on" position. My otherwise completely reliable car didn't leave me stranded. I was close to the dealership where I bought it from, so I drove over. Bought it used. Turns out the ignition needed replacing when it was still for sale on the dealer's lot.

I keep nothing heavy on my car keys. My current key fob is just that, a switch-blade style key fob with nothing hanging from it. (I might add a AAA light to it). But a minimalist set up is a good idea. 

Compared to the ratio of which is more failure prone, the old-fashioned ignition is far more reliable.


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## gorn (Oct 18, 2009)

My sister has a Nissan Altima hybrid. She found out the hard way that cell phones will infact kill your key fob. She was without a way to use her car for a week after the fob got nuked. Turns out the Nissan dealership didn't have the correct software to program a new Altima key for her. She was not real happy.


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## Monocrom (Oct 18, 2009)

gorn said:


> My sister has a Nissan Altima hybrid. She found out the hard way that cell phones will infact kill your key fob. She was without a way to use her car for a week after the fob got nuked. Turns out the Nissan dealership didn't have the correct software to program a new Altima key for her. She was not real happy.


 
Damn! An entire week??

Situation is even worse than I thought. I hope the dealership at least gave her a free rental car for the week.


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## LEDobsession (Oct 18, 2009)

I think the idea of push button ignition is pretty cool, but has quite a few cons attached to it. For my 01 Sierra C3, I had remote start installed. It has the keyless entry and I still have the door and ignition key. Thats the way I prefer it. I will never own another new(ish) vehicle without remote start. Due to that and the keyless entry (aside from my first vehicle, 69 F100 Ranger which you had to lock the door from the outside with the key), I have _never_ locked a set of my keys in any of my vehicles.


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## TooManyGizmos (Oct 18, 2009)

What ever happened to the Steering Wheel lock that was incorporated with keyed ignitions ?
Meaning you couldn't turn the wheel till the key was turned . (or take it out of Park)

Thieves seem to easily get past all this technology.

.


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## buickid (Oct 18, 2009)

Turning the key is just one of those things that makes driving so much fun. The physical connection to the car and road. I guess people aren't into that kind of thing anymore. Rotating that key 45 degrees is far too much physical exertion... Same theory with manual transmission I suppose.

Not to mention the key fobs are quite expensive. I can go down to any hardware store and have a duplicate key made for $4. None of this $500 for a key stuff. (My friend's Porsche key cost that much! :shakehead)


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## lightplay22 (Oct 20, 2009)

So far I've had no problems with our "smart keys". After using them for almost 2 years now I hope to never have to fool with a key ring again. I think someone should make house locks operate the the same way. I never realized what a hassle having to use a key to unlock the door or to start the car was (cause that is what I always had) until we got a vehicle with smart key. I thought it just be ok, but now I'm totally spoiled to never even having to think about using a key.

Wish I could retrofit my work van as it would save me soooo much hassle unloading and loading tools where I have to unlock and lock the doors over and over again.


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