# Winter specific tires for cars, do don't why which ?



## 127.0.0.1 (Oct 10, 2012)

simple answer for me is yes: if there is a chance of winter happening, on go studless winter tires 

the specific brand and model I chose after a long time researching and testing tires myself, [this
is not a sales thread whatoever] but I chose XIce Xi2 over all other offerings, for a ton of reasons
and I find they get it done in a big way vs all season tires

-on my subcompact, it turned it from basically undrivable in my neighborhood of 14deg hills, into a snowcat
-on my 1999 woods buggy 4runner, all seasons really worked fine, but have since started winter specific
due to the outlandish improvement on the squirrelly car...and damn, what a difference


Do you also use full winters and switch over for the season ?


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## StarHalo (Oct 10, 2012)

If you're in a snowy area, snow tires should be not-optional; the difference in braking can be many dozens of feet, which can be the difference between plowing into the car in front of you/weeks of dealing with insurance/personal injury with hospitalization/etc, and just coming to a stop then driving away merrily. 

If you really want to maximize your winter traction, buy not only the snow tires, but also mount them on a unique set of wheels which are smaller in diameter than your usual wheels (properly sized smaller using the plus system.) This gives you a notably better snow-cutting contact patch, and makes it much faster to install; no un-/re-mounting tires, just wheels off, wheels on, go.


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## orbital (Oct 10, 2012)

+

Ice is the biggest factor.

Cars pack down snow to create ice withing hours of snowfall.
Even if plows are really on it, ice is the issue.

Winter tires have little cuts called* sipes* that garb ice quite well, as well as having softer compound.
Remember to get your braking done before the turn,,, Very important!
Also, don't overinflate your tires.

I have Michelin LTX M/S all-seasons,, they have particularly soft sidewalls which allow the tire to grip well in winter conditions*

*summer turn-in response is sacrificed a bit.


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## TEEJ (Oct 10, 2012)

Its hard to beat the Bridgestone Blizzaks on hard pack or ice...they essentially have microscopic sipes that are part of the rubber formulation as well as macroscopic tread sipes, and the performance is phenomenal. 

So, yeah, if you drive in snow, dedicated snow tires are better than all season tires. 

A point to note - The old M&S (Mud and Snow) rating is obsolete, as no testing was required to get that designation...the makers would just put it on if they thought it applied, etc.

The new designation is a Mountain/Snowflake symbol...and tires have to pass tests to earn it. Some mountain passes in Co, etc, state that rigs w/o that snowflake are not even ALLOWED on some roads in winter, etc.


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## jamesmtl514 (Oct 10, 2012)

This will be our third winter here in Quebec, Canada we are obliged to equip our vehicles with dedicated winter tires.

I've always done so regardless of the law. There is a very noticeable difference in a vehicles performance depending on the tires and conditions.

Blizzaks are very good, (accord)
I was very happy with my Dunlop Wintersport M3.(tl-s)
I think I'm going to go with Toyo for my C250 4matic.

The important part is not to cheap out. Get tires from a reputable company, made in a country with quality control.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Oct 10, 2012)

IMO winter tires are an absolute must in the North East. I used to have an older S4 and with winter tires on it that car was unstoppable in pretty much anything. I could plow through 8 inches of snow with pure confidence and have a blast. 

I drive 40 miles each way to work and having winter tires has got me through where others were stuck in a ditch. Well worth the $1000 to get a used set of rims and a good set of winter tires.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 10, 2012)

I've always gone with all-season tires, right from the the introduction of the Goodyear Tiempo and have done well enough that I have no intention of changing back to separate tires for the seasons.
Equipment is important, and the most important equipment is the driver and the most important thing a driver does is assess the conditions to drive appropriately, even if it means getting down to 25 miles an hour, as many people did up here year before last when black ice was there for the better part of four months.


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## jamesmtl514 (Oct 11, 2012)

This post isn't directed at anyone in particular.

The driver is the biggest safety factor. If they haven't properly equipped their car to suit the road conditions they are putting themselves and others at risk. Sure driving nice and slow is safer, however why should they hold up everyone else that is operating a vehicle capable of safely navigating the road and a quicker speed? 
When someone drives slow it forces others to sometimes perform risky maneuvers to go around said slow driver. Also go as slow as you want without proper tires and you'll still slide in corners, you'll still take longer to accelerate from a stop.and you'll still take much longer to come to a stop. 
Additionally it is important to actually KNOW how to drive in adverse conditions. Having the training and experience is invaluable.
The vehicle may be the most well adapted for winter driving, best system, best tires, best visibility. It always come down to the driver.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Oct 11, 2012)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> 
> I have Michelin LTX M/S all-seasons,, they have particularly soft sidewalls which allow the tire to grip well in winter conditions*
> ...



heh, LTX M/S...those are exactly the ones I have been using on the 4runner since 1999


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## 127.0.0.1 (Oct 11, 2012)

with the economy suffering, more and more peeps are driving in winter with
bald-*** tires, cuz tires are def not cheap. winter tires or not, you have to look
out for the other dude...winter tires will certainly help with evasive maneuvers

for my little subcompact, I noticed that cornering off-camber downhill is entirely
predictable now... and if/when the butt wants to come around, I can control it very well and stop it

could never do that with the baloney-skin M/S that came with the car from the factory,
once loose, you are going to swing all the way around


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## TEEJ (Oct 11, 2012)

Amen to that.

The drivers make more of a difference than anything.

A great example are the numbnuts in SUVs that forget that EVERYONE has 4 wheel BRAKES, and that just because you CAN GO 80 mph in the shoulder in a blizzard, DOESN'T mean you can STOP fast enough to not hit the guy pulled over to clean the ice from his wipers.



I was on the way back from CT a few years back in a severe snow storm...people were getting stuck on 6 lane hwys, etc...it was a mess. Yet, there were Ford Exploders passing everyone in the shoulder, and, then, a few miles further, crashing into guard rails, cars on the should because they couldn't see and/or were clearing their wipers, etc. There was an accident about every mile...it was insane. :duh2:

I was in a modified 4wd rig used for off road rescue and recovery work...and had plenty of traction and ground clearance, etc...but I was plodding along with the sedans, etc....because there was no other safe way to proceed. 



All Season Tires are a compromise...in the winter, they are better than summer tires, worse than snow tires, etc. In the Summer, they are worse than summer tires but better than winter tires, etc.




I personally hate All Season Tires because they handle so poorly compared to other street tires. I took off a set of new Tiempos many years ago because it felt like I had no air in the tires the first time I changed lanes...VERY wishy washy handling.

I do have spare rims and tires in my garage for the several vehicles involved....and if I lived in an apartment or other place where storage was a problem...I can see biting the bullet and going All Season.


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## orbital (Oct 11, 2012)

127.0.0.1 said:


> heh, LTX M/S...those are exactly the ones I have been using on the 4runner since 1999



+

The reason I mentioned them is because of the sidewall construction & sipes, trying to point out differences in tire construction ect.
Obviously I know they are not true 'winter' tires.


On a 4wd truck/suv, they get it done four seasons a year and laaaaaaaast a long time.:thumbsup:


Passenger cars are different, a dedicated winter setup is a must.


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## TEEJ (Oct 11, 2012)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> The reason I mentioned them is because of the sidewall construction & sipes, trying to point out differences in tire construction ect.
> Obviously I know they are not true 'winter' tires.
> ...




Other tires that are great for that are the BFG AT ko and the Goodyear Duratrac. They work best in deeper snow than on ice though...as they are fairly aggressively treaded.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Oct 11, 2012)

on a side note, more about LTX M/S...

a) can get me a mile up my skidder road driveway to the cabin







b) and has enough grip to do woods-buggy duty


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Oct 11, 2012)

I agree that the driver makes more of a difference that anything - but not at all for the reasons above. 

Just driving slow, as noted already, is not the solution to the problem and in the end may cause more problems than it resolves. 

Being an observant and educated driver also means knowing the limitations of your equipment. If you can't afford snows, or are driving on near bald all seasons, you need to be able to assess the road conditions and consider the strong possibility that just staying off the road is the safest decision.

The problem with SUVs (and I am a AWD SUV driver now - owning a very capable 4WD SUV at that) is that people just assume that they are in a SUV with 4WD and they can drive through anything - and they just turn off their brain. Read any MotorTrend, TireRack or Car and Driver about winter driving and they will all say the A/4WD helps to get you going and staying on the straight path but has NOTHING to do with how fast you can stop. In terms of stopping the smaller lighter car has the advantage and the big and heavy SUV will take longer to stop.

In general people are pretty stupid and don't follow the basic safety rules of the road and weather driving. In good weather follow 5 car lengths, in rain double that, in snow and ice you need to at least triple or 4x that. The road I commute on is wicked scary - every morning the average speed is 85-90 mph and people literally follow 10-15ft behind in a constant row of cars 3 lanes deep. I am just waiting for that one day when something happens because the pile up is going to be 20 cars long.

I have full confidence in my driving skills and have both on and off track training and experience. I also know the full limitations of my vehicle. Whenever I get a new vehicle or new tires I take it in an unplowed lot the first snow and test those limits so I don't reach any surprises on the road. 

For the past few years since I have been car commuting a lot of miles I have learned to drive based on the person behind me rather than in front. I know I always have enough room to stop in an emergency so I give extra distance based on how fast and close the person behind me is driving so I can stop a little slower so they have time to wake-up and react and not rear-end me.

Long and short of it is that a little common sense (which most people lack) goes a LONG way. For most people it's just best to stay inside until the roads are plowed.


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## TEEJ (Oct 11, 2012)

LOL

OK, pics?




BFG AT ko's:






























I now have a set of BFG KM2's and Interco LTB's as well, which are better if the snow is deeper, but worse if the snow is harder packed:


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## jamesmtl514 (Oct 11, 2012)

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> Long and short of it is that a little common sense (which most people lack) goes a LONG way. For most people it's just best to stay inside until the roads are plowed.



I like your whole post. What really rings true, and lots of people won't admit it, is the last part.

People that drive slower than me and people that drive faster than me are crazy. Very few can and will admit they don't possess the right tools and or skills.


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## orbital (Oct 11, 2012)

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> ....
> Long and short of it is that a little common sense (which most people lack) goes a LONG way. For most people it's just best to stay inside until the roads are plowed.



+

Good post,

People really need to pay attention, not think their car/truck will save them out of any situation.
I'll argue against diver assist crap on new cars only because of the inattentive , nonchalant attitude it promotes
that the car will save them & they can sit back and scroll through their emails....

Winter driving is an exercise in what cars can't do, 
I'm so ingrained on pumping my brakes, I do it year 'round (left footed)


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## TEEJ (Oct 11, 2012)

LOL

I wish that people who didn't have the common sense to know how to drive WOULD HAVE the common sense to stay home if the roads are not clear.

Unfortunately, the same common sense that's missing in the first place seems to prevent the safety valve effect in the second place.

Also - If you ASK people if they are a good driver, 90% of all drivers will tell you that they are above average.

This is because we all value and weight things differently. 

IE:

I might think I'm a good driver because I can 4 wheel drift around a track at high speed w/o losing control, and can heel/toe my way through a tight course...and blame my accidents on the slow morons in front of me or they ones who pulled out in front of me, or the blow-out at 100 mph, etc.

You might think you're a good driver because you always drive at 50% of the speed limit, and slow down to 10% if there's a curve..and blame your accidents on the morons going 100 mph that appeared out of nowhere when you pulled out or slowed way down in front of them...etc.

You might be super conservative, and/or drive very few miles in areas of concern, and have no accidents at all...and have no skills whatsoever other than being able to get to work and back, etc.


Some might consider a lack of accidents as the indicator of their prowess, others might consider their skill at controlling the dynamics at high speed or on rough terrain, and so forth...every has their OWN concept of what a "good driver" means.

I think they are all correct, for THEM. So its hard to compare as a general concept...you need to rate the specific skill sets independently...and probably with third party verification if you need the data to be representative.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Oct 11, 2012)

If you can drive safely from point A to B:
1) without driving to fast and causing risk to others around you.
2) without driving to slow and causing risk to other around you.
3) always using your turn signals and indicate your intentions in advance of doing them
4) making sure it is safe to make you next move before you do it.
Then I would consider you a good driver.

If everyone is doing 70 and you are doing 50 - you are a BAD driver.
If everyone is doing 50 and you are doing the 70mph weave - you are a BAD driver.
If you change lanes on the highway without a blinker flash - you are a BAD driver. (my wife unfortunately)
If you change lanes and insist on squeezing between two cars with barely and wiggle room rather than waiting for a bigger space to move over - you are a BAD driver.
etc,etc, etc blah blah blah
And sorry - I have to throw this dig in - if you drive a Toyata Prius you are a BAD driver and get zero respect from me on the road. Suck it up if you don't like that one.


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## orbital (Oct 11, 2012)

+

The truth is, most people won't spend the money* on dedicated winter tires, 

*that's the concern.*



*they need more important things like_ data minutes _


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## Grizzman (Oct 11, 2012)

I don't use dedicated summer/winter tires. I prefer dedicated summer/winter vehicles. Sports car with summer tires, and older 4WD truck with all terrain tires.

Here's another vote for BF Goodrich AT KOs. I've been running them on my K1500 for the last four or so years (since I bought it). I rarely need to engage 4WD, as long as I've got a few hundred pounds of weight in the bed.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 11, 2012)

jamesmtl514 said:


> The driver is the biggest safety factor. If they haven't properly equipped their car to suit the road conditions they are putting themselves and others at risk. Sure driving nice and slow is safer, however why should they hold up everyone else that is operating a vehicle capable of safely navigating the road and a quicker speed?
> When someone drives slow it forces others to sometimes perform risky maneuvers to go around said slow driver. Also go as slow as you want without proper tires and you'll still slide in corners, you'll still take longer to accelerate from a stop.and you'll still take much longer to come to a stop.
> Additionally it is important to actually KNOW how to drive in adverse conditions. Having the training and experience is invaluable.
> The vehicle may be the most well adapted for winter driving, best system, best tires, best visibility. It always come down to the driver.





ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> I agree that the driver makes more of a difference that anything - but not at all for the reasons above.
> 
> Just driving slow, as noted already, is not the solution to the problem and in the end may cause more problems than it resolves.
> 
> ...


Both very nice posts with great points, but both of them specifically point to my post of yesterday with little realization of how bad the road was and how many cars and trucks I've helped get out of nasty situations because they expected their fantastic tires to allow them to drive in anyway they pleased. If either one of you were to come to Fairbanks and ride in my all-season equipped vehicle you would realize that I do better getting around than all of the postings suggesting that all-season tires are a bad choice. 
I'm one of the percentage of people who didn't go off the road when it was so bad, and even going 25, had to pass others at times. 
For the same reasons posted above, I've never yet been rear-ended either, and allowing enough distance to the vehicle in front of me has allowed me to accelerate away from one more times than I can count over the years.


jamesmtl514 said:


> People that drive slower than me and people that drive faster than me are crazy. Very few can and will admit they don't possess the right tools and or skills.


Then I guess you're the world's most perfect driver? For what it's worth, I sometimes feel the same way, but then at the end of the day, some are enjoying the scenery, some are in a hurry and there is a reasonable allowability for speeds both higher and lower.
When I can't see the road ahead because of foliage or large trucks, I keep to the standard of driving as if there were a dangerous obstacle and watch my distance to other vehicles, pay attention to road and visibility conditions. My last wreck, about 15 years ago came about when a truck with studded winter tires locked his brakes up and started sliding towards my side of the road, and with probably a full 10 if not more, never realized that taking his foot off brake would have prevented him from hitting me where I was parked all the way over on the opposite shoulder of the road.


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## jamesmtl514 (Oct 11, 2012)

Sounds like you are a decent driver.
The faster/slower comment is an old joke. 

Most people will say that drivers who are either faster or slower than themselves are less adept.

I strongly believe that one needs to be aware of the surroundings and drive accordingly. In the case you provided you seem to have been in the right.

My underlying comment was for those drivers that drive much slower in the passing lane and try to control the flow of traffic by bring what they believe its extra cautious.
All it does is irritate drivers and have them perform risky maneuvers in order to distance themselves from the rolling hazard.

Again, not pointing to any poster in particular unless otherwise specified.

And if you think your winter driving is bad, come to Montreal. New York city style drivers....on ice....with hills.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 11, 2012)

orbital said:


> I'm so ingrained on pumping my brakes, I do it year 'round


Me too - helps quite a bit on all the gravel we've got up here as well!


jamesmtl514 said:


> Sounds like you are a decent driver.
> The faster/slower comment is an old joke.
> 
> Most people will say that drivers who are either faster or slower than themselves are less adept.
> ...


Sorry I didn't catch the joke and I guess I've even used that one before!

Yeah, passing lane usage, among many other habits makes one wish people could remember the rules of the road, which they had to review when first receiving their drivers licenses.


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## Fresh Light (Oct 11, 2012)

I have Summer wheels with performance tires on my car and for winter the stock wheels with Blizzaks, which have been amazing. This is the 5th season with the Blizzaks. They don't appear to have much wear, but I may replace them since I drive 40 miles to get to my work. I have a Toyota FJ cruiser that came with possibly the worst tires I have ever used in winter driving, Dueller H/Ts. The FJ is a 6sp manual that remains in all wheel drive yet my front wheel drive car with Blizzaks was much more confidence inspiring, by far, on winter roads. I may eventually get blizzaks for the truck but for now my car is the way to go in winter at least if there is less than 6 inches on the road.


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## RBR (Oct 12, 2012)

.....


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## Chicago X (Oct 12, 2012)

The difference in snow/ice performance with a set of dedicated snows, over that of all-seasons, is truly staggering.

I really like the Dunlop Wintersport M3 for my RWD sedan, but have had great results with Blizzaks in the past.

Even the AWD SUV gets snow tires here, as a winter panic-stop may double (or treble) in distance with all-seasons...and you can't control what the _other guy_ will do.


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## välineurheilija (Oct 12, 2012)

We have to use winter tires in december,january and february by law.I use Hankook epike studded tires but some people use socalled friction tires without studs,but IMO if you have ice you must have studs.Safe driving is the most important thing but its very easy to get stuck without studs


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## brandini (Oct 12, 2012)

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> If you can drive safely from point A to B:
> 1) without driving to fast and causing risk to others around you.
> 2) without driving to slow and causing risk to other around you.
> 3) always using your turn signals and indicate your intentions in advance of doing them
> ...


That list would be assuming perfect weather. 

I have been the person going slow in torrential downpour, but I also wasn't one of four to hydroplane and wreck.


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## jellydonut (Oct 13, 2012)

Given where I am from, I don't even understand how this is an issue. Obviously you need winter tires for the snow (and ice).

There's a reason we laugh at those American winter pile-ups they show on the news every winter.. They don't happen here, because people switch tires for the conditions.


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## herosemblem (Oct 13, 2012)

jamesmtl514 said:


> This post isn't directed at anyone in particular.
> 
> The driver is the biggest safety factor... Sure driving nice and slow is safer, however why should they hold up everyone else that is operating a vehicle capable of safely navigating the road and a quicker speed?
> When someone drives slow it forces others to sometimes perform risky maneuvers to go around said slow drivers...Additionally it is important to actually KNOW how to drive in adverse conditions. Having the training and experience is invaluable.
> The vehicle may be the most well adapted for winter driving, best system, best tires, best visibility. It always come down to the driver.



Thanks, James. What are we supposed to get from this, though? That we should all attend professional winter driving schools (i.e. training) to become better drivers?


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## jamesmtl514 (Oct 13, 2012)

yup!
Or drive with experienced people for longer. or have to pass government driving license test in the winter and summer. IE.: One license allows you to drive in the non-snow conditions. Another when it's snowing.
I know it's not practical of feasible, however I think we have too many terrible drivers on the road. IIRC Germany requires special training/license in order to drive at high speed on their autobahns. We could have something similar.


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## orbital (Oct 13, 2012)

jamesmtl514 said:


> yup!
> Or drive with experienced people for longer. or have to pass government driving license test in the winter and summer. IE.: One license allows you to drive in the non-snow conditions. Another when it's snowing.
> I know it's not practical of feasible, however I think we have too many terrible drivers on the road. IIRC Germany requires special training/license in order to drive at high speed on their autobahns. We could have something similar.



+

I couldn't agree more.
Thing is, it would never pass in the States because some group would claim it as discriminatory in some way.

:fail:


*...or,, get a winter driving certificate to lower your car insurance*


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Oct 13, 2012)

Ya know these comments make me think of an experience I had when moving from New York City up to Boston about 10 years ago. It always drove me crazy that people in New York City area were really terrible snow drivers. When I moved up to Boston I was expecting the worst because there is even more snow up there and the cold season is a month longer on each end of Winter. But, I was very impressed that most MA residents are pretty capable snow drivers. Unfortunately they make up for that by being terrible when driving in the rain.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 13, 2012)

jellydonut said:


> Given where I am from, I don't even understand how this is an issue. Obviously you need winter tires for the snow (and ice).
> 
> There's a reason we laugh at those American winter pile-ups they show on the news every winter.. They don't happen here, because people switch tires for the conditions.


Just doing a quick latitude check I'm further north than a lot of Norway is and the only pileups I see are caused by drivers and moose. Plenty of us without problems on all-season tires and I personally don't laugh at the misfortunes of others.


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## Chicago X (Oct 13, 2012)

jamesmtl514 said:


> ... I think we have too many terrible drivers on the road. IIRC Germany requires special training/license in order to drive at high speed on their autobahns. We could have something similar.



I agree 100%

It's far too easy to get a license in the USA. Heck, you don't even need to be able to read signage to get one !


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## RBR (Oct 14, 2012)

.....


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## jamesmtl514 (Oct 14, 2012)

Thanks for the clarification. 
having been to Germany and on the autobahn I can attest that they are some of the best drivers. Whatever Germany is doing, I hope they keep it up.


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## jellydonut (Oct 14, 2012)

kaichu dento said:


> Just doing a quick latitude check I'm further north than a lot of Norway is and the only pileups I see are caused by drivers and moose. Plenty of us without problems on all-season tires and I personally don't laugh at the misfortunes of others.



When you see these dozens of cars pile up solely because people are unable to actually brake for traffic given their ill-suited tires, there's nothing to do but laugh, considering how easily avoided it is. People here aren't particularly good drivers, yet things like that simply don't happen.

I would never drive in actual winter conditions with 'all-season' tires (they're fine for areas where you don't actually get snow in the winter..). You haven't had a problem, good for you! That's great, but in my opinion, probably luck.


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## OCD (Oct 14, 2012)

jellydonut said:


> I would never drive in actual winter conditions with 'all-season' tires (they're fine for areas where you don't actually get snow in the winter..). You haven't had a problem, good for you! That's great, but in my opinion, probably luck.



As others have stated, I also use BFG All Terrains on my 4WD truck and haven't found many tires that compare for both off-road and in snow. I've driven many miles in some pretty nasty winter weather. Here in the mid-west where I live, not only can we get some decent snow, but we have TONS of hills and back-roads. Not only do I feel that I've never had any problems with my "all-season" tires, but I feel they've kept me from getting into problems.

So as you're entitled to your OPINION on the subject, don't try to tell me I'm just a "lucky" driver.


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## orbital (Oct 14, 2012)

+

All season passenger car tires & all season truck tires cannot be looked at or compared in any way.
~~ Classic apples to oranges
*All Season passenger car tires mean nothing & are not winter tires.*

I really see this as a problem,, 
people thinking their _'budget car center'_ all season passenger tires, on super special $, are winter tires:tsk: _________they are not


**********edit: also, those silly super tall wheels with tires that have no sidewalls,, should be illegal from Nov.1~Apr.1 
in the US.


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## HighlanderNorth (Oct 14, 2012)

Prior to my current 4X4 truck, my best snow-driving car was.......well....not a car, it was a minivan. I needed a work van, so in 2000 I bought a 1993 Plymouth Voyager minivan with 87,000 miles, which ran great from the time I bought it til the time I sold it. But we got this 12" snowfall in early 2001, and I was really worried that it was going to repeatedly get stuck, especially considering I had to go and help a few people get shoveled out early in the AM when it was still snowing and hadnt been plowed hardly at all, and the roads in the developments hadnt been plowed at all!

So I take off and immediately I realize that the minivan is just driving right along with zero problems, and zero sliding. When I'd get to an intersection, I'd just depress the gas pedal and go. No wheel spin. I was driving through unplowed developments passed cars that were stuck, and I'd park right in high snow, and when it was time to leave 45 minutes later, I'd just pull right out! It was front wheel drive with its engine AND transmission right over top of the front wheels was great for snow traction!

I noticed that the expensive all season tires that came on my truck stock were very good for the first 2-3 years, then their traction seemed to disappear even though they still had over 60-70% of their original tread left.


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## StarHalo (Oct 14, 2012)

orbital said:


> tires that have no sidewalls,, should be illegal from Nov.1~Apr.1 in the US.



Yup, and that's why you put winter tires on a properly re-sized smaller diameter wheel; aside from the fact that this makes the tires cheaper, it also makes them narrower - there's a reason rally drivers use ultra-skinny tires in the snow:


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## kaichu dento (Oct 14, 2012)

jellydonut said:


> When you see these dozens of cars pile up solely because people are unable to actually brake for traffic given their ill-suited tires, there's nothing to do but laugh, considering how easily avoided it is. People here aren't particularly good drivers, yet things like that simply don't happen.
> 
> I would never drive in actual winter conditions with 'all-season' tires (they're fine for areas where you don't actually get snow in the winter..). You haven't had a problem, good for you! That's great, but in my opinion, probably luck.


I haven't seen the dozens of cars you mention, and you probably haven't either but I can tell by your attitude, particularly the part that is constantly looking down your nose at those who would deign to disagree with you, that your opinion is probably not worth much. 
We get plenty of snow in Alaska, but I guess you're not going to let facts get in the way of your postings. 

As for the luck mentioned, I find the better I do my part, the more luck I have!


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## orbital (Oct 14, 2012)

StarHalo said:


> Yup, and that's why you put winter tires on a properly re-sized smaller diameter wheel; aside from the fact that this makes the tires cheaper, it also makes them narrower - there's a reason rally drivers use ultra-skinny tires in the snow:..



+

Probably the biggest misconception people have on winter tires is to get really wide sh^%#! kicker tires for winter.
*This is exactly the opposite of the truth.*

SAAB proved, 50~60 years ago, that narrow tires would allow the weight of the vehicle to cut through the snow and grip the base surface.
Wide tires will_ 'float'_ on snow.

The world rally shot is an extreme example, but a good one because teams will use the absolute best setup for winter driving traction,,, studded or not.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 14, 2012)

StarHalo said:


> Yup, and that's why you put winter tires on a properly re-sized smaller diameter wheel; aside from the fact that this makes the tires cheaper, it also makes them narrower - there's a reason rally drivers use ultra-skinny tires in the snow





orbital said:


> SAAB proved, 50~60 years ago, that narrow tires would allow the weight of the vehicle to cut through the snow and grip the base surface.
> Wide tires will_ 'float'_ on snow.
> 
> The world rally shot is an extreme example, but a good one because teams will use the absolute best setup for winter driving traction,,, studded or not.


Great point to bring up and one of the worst mistakes one can make when choosing traction for snow or mud - too wide. Wide is good for asphalt, but not for snow.


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## TEEJ (Oct 14, 2012)

kaichu dento said:


> Great point to bring up and one of the worst mistakes one can make when choosing traction for snow or mud - too wide. Wide is good for asphalt, but not for snow.



This is somewhat true, but also somewhat false.

Lets just say how wide, or how narrow, will affect your traction.

If I were to use an analogy...lets say you can have soccer cleats or basketball sneakers...and you had to play basketball on a hard court with soccer cleats, you'd slide all over the place because your cleats could not sink into the hard surface for traction...they skitter across the top and you slide all over the place and twist your ankle, etc.

Then, you put on the basketball sneakers, and go play soccer on a wet field. The smooth rubber soles slide over the wet grass without traction, as they have no tread elements to sink into the turf for traction...and you slide all over the place and twist your other ankle, etc.


Now, consider that your tire tread elements are like those cleats. If the surface is soft ENOUGH, they do sink in and get traction...but, if the surface is too hard...they do not. The MORE they sink in, the MORE traction you can get.

When on deep fresh snow, a paddle wheel tread type can grab the ridges of snow and paddle you through it all.

As the snow is progressively harder and harder packed, those large tread elements sink in progressively less.


When the snow is packed too hard to push the tread in, it skitters over it instead of biting.


NOW, it comes down to the size of the tread element, and, the weight pushing it down into the packed snow.

So, a narrower tire concentrates the weight on a smaller area, increasing the psi at the point of penetration for each given tread block.

A smaller tread block in turn also concentrates its weight into a smaller area to also increase penetration.


A SPIKE for example, or tire stud, is an extreme example of this...it concentrates the weight on the point to increase the penetration dramatically. 


After you finally find a combination that gives penetration...you then need to look at the ability of that POINT to be able to brace against and be used to move the rig forward. IE: IS one point enough to move the rig?

How many DO you need to have sunk in TO be able to move the rig?

And that gets, again, back to how hard it is, and its resistance when pushed back against, etc.

Too many spikes, and its "bed of nails" effect...the weight is too distributed, and the penetration is too shallow...so you either get penetration, but the cumulative grip is too small, or you don't even get penetration.

If you have the correct number of spikes - you get both penetration and sufficient leverage from those penetration points



So, for a particular weight rig and a particular tread pattern and a particular snow density/hardness and depth...any combination of wide or narrow treads MIGHT work best.


As far as ice or really hard pack goes...every one knows a narrow runner like on a sled will slide more easily than a fat toboggan will - even though the toboggan "floats" better.

So if the narrow runner slips more easily, how does it get more traction? (It doesn't)



The answer is that the larger surface area off the toboggan provides more TOTAL friction than the small surface area of the sled's runners. BOTH generate heat from friction, and both melt the ice and snow to aid in their sliding along...but, the larger surface area, even with lower psi loading, can still generate more traction.

If you were to add tread to the bottom of the toboggan, and to the bottom of the sled's runners...the toboggan would STILL go slower down the hill, and, may not even slide.

This again gets back to the OVERALL and cumulative impact of the available traction contact patch.


So, while the wider tire MIGHT have less traction in snow...it sometimes has MORE traction.


If the rig is going very fast, like a rally racer, etc...the rig might need snow or slush to pile up against the sidewall in a power slide to build enough resistance to allow a change in direction.

A narrow tire WILL sink down further all else being equal, and might be able to maximize that side piling.

On the other hand, when braking, most racers in loose terrain don't use anti-lock brakes because they also need the stuff to pile up in FRONT of the tire to help stop...whereas anti-locks prevents that, and actually can lengthen stopping distances.


So, there are rigs designed for traveling through snow...and, other than rally cars, when they fit, the fattest tires that DO fit are what they have on. Part of that is BECAUSE they will have better flotation, and be less likely to sink down and get STUCK.

The treads used therefore take advantage of surface ridge piling effects, so that the tread pattern allows the snow to be compacted by the tire into ridges that the tread elements can brace against.


If there is soft snow over ice...there's no traction to sink down TOO...you need to use the deformable soft snow for traction, and avoid sinking down.

After that...its all a question of degree...for the weight of the rig and the width of the tire and its diameter, and the size of the tread elements and the compactability of the snow, etc...wider might be better, narrower might be better, etc. Its not one size fits all.


And so forth...so many variations of what might be best for a particular winter situation that we'd probably need to learn Inuit terms to describe all the types of snow that might be there, etc. (IIRC, they have over 200 words for snow...)




So, yes, if you are rally racing on ice....you use skinny tires...but, if you look at the rally guys, they increase the contact patch as the snow softens...they don't ONLY run pizza cutters no matter what if there's snow...they chose the combination of contact patch and contact element penetration and need to cut into the substrate.


Examples of a fat tread working better in snow:


























Notice these are not pizza cutters, and, they seem to have snow traction?


Think toboggan with tread vs sled runners with tread....sometimes fatter works better in the snow....and, yes, TOO fat, or, TOO skinny, doesn't work as well.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 14, 2012)

Fatter is generally better for situations where you desire flotation as well - sand or snow with no base would be two examples. Everyone else in the thread has been talking about road usage, but your point does stand well for those who might go too far in the assumption that fat tires are never desirable.


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## TEEJ (Oct 15, 2012)

kaichu dento said:


> Fatter is generally better for situations where you desire flotation as well - sand or snow with no base would be two examples. Everyone else in the thread has been talking about road usage, but your point does stand well for those who might go too far in the assumption that fat tires are never desirable.




Its the same for mud tires. If there is something solid to bite into under all the stuff on top, and if reaching down to it won't make the leading edges of the tire have to overcome too steep a ramp, then a narrower tire can work.

If there's nothing but ice or harder packed material you can't bite into under there, or if you'd have to sink too far down to reach the traction...then a fatter tire works better.

Too often the narrow tired rigs get stuck because they simply have no flotation or traction, and/or sink down so far that the face of the tire is facing too steep a pile of snow to keep climbing over as it rolls forward.

On the road, or off the road, this is true. 

If we have slush over pavement, narrower tires will be able to sink down to reach the pavement better, and have something to bite for traction, and the slush won't resist the tire trying to roll forward too much to stop it...and, you can go faster w/o hydroplaning up onto the slush/water film, etc. As winter rally races typically chew up the surfaces, it does tend to result in the kind of crud that a narrower tire has a better chance of handling.

Where we have deep snowfall, sinking down for traction = sinking down and high centering/making too tall a pile of snow in front of the tire to allow it to roll forward, etc.

As the snow gets deeper and softer, the tires get wider to compensate. 

Its all about the balance between contact pressures and required penetration pressures for a particular tread and scenario, combined with the vehicle's weight and the type and depth of snow/ice cover, and the resultant required total leverage to move yourself with what contact/penetration you have, etc.

Sometimes XCountry skis work better, and sometimes snowshoes work better.


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## orbital (Oct 15, 2012)

+

This thread is about winter tires for normal driving and highways speeds. 
...the snowshoe analogy shows _wide_ makes you float,, which in winter tires is equivalent to very dangerous 'snow' hydroplaning.

*,,absolutely the WRONG answer for winter driving.*



{the word *cars* in the title is key, not polar expedition machines}


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## 127.0.0.1 (Oct 15, 2012)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> This thread is about winter tires for normal driving and highways speeds.
> ...the snowshoe analogy shows _wide_ makes you float,, which in winter tires is equivalent to very dangerous 'snow' hydroplaning.
> ...



yup, that is what I meant. paved or dirt town roads for commuting to work and getting groceries,
not polar expeditions or swampfest 2012


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## kaichu dento (Oct 15, 2012)

TEEJ said:


> Its the same for mud tires. If there is something solid to bite into under all the stuff on top, and if reaching down to it won't make the leading edges of the tire have to overcome too steep a ramp, then a narrower tire can work.


Teej, we're all aware of most of this and the thread is actually getting derailed into a general discussion having nothing to do with the OP, which is whether or not to buy snow specific tires.


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## jorn (Oct 16, 2012)

Changing to winter tires today. Icy on the road this morning, and my rwd was waving it's tale all the way to work, making me smile . Off with antispin.. fun sideways. Only spiked tires for me. 

Narrow tires for the road. superwide ones if you are going off road (expedition), and need to float on top of 1-2m snow. But you dont use them on normal cars. You got to rebuild the off roader to accept surch wide tires.

Every year there is a test of tires. can find it here (translated by google): http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.naf.no%2FAlle-saker%2FNAF-eksperten%2FForbrukertester%2FDekktest%2FVinterdekktest-2012%2FVinterdekktest-2012%2F


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## SemiMan (Oct 16, 2012)

kaichu dento said:


> I've always gone with all-season tires, right from the the introduction of the Goodyear Tiempo and have done well enough that I have no intention of changing back to separate tires for the seasons.
> Equipment is important, and the most important equipment is the driver and the most important thing a driver does is assess the conditions to drive appropriately, even if it means getting down to 25 miles an hour, as many people did up here year before last when black ice was there for the better part of four months.



There is a great saying about tires ...

"All season tires guarantee that you will have the wrong tire for every season".

It is so true. There is just no comparison between all seasons and dedicated winter tires. You can "drive slow" and "careful" all you want, but stuff happens and you have no control over the other drivers on the road. The small added cost of winter tires (compared to your car, insurance, gas, etc.) is excellent "insurance". I find "near snow" areas some of the worse. Any tire can get you tolerably through 4 inches of snow (10cm). Its when you have a small amount of snow (almost daily) that turns into ice that things get dicey, normally because the conditions then get unpredictable. You can try going slow all you want, but you do have to go with the "flow" or you become a danger to everyone else as you cause everyone else to make unneccessary lane changes to get around you.

Even the best drivers lose attention at times. Its good (and sensible) to be prepared when that happens. That is part of being a good driver.


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## SemiMan (Oct 16, 2012)

OCD said:


> As others have stated, I also use BFG All Terrains on my 4WD truck and haven't found many tires that compare for both off-road and in snow. I've driven many miles in some pretty nasty winter weather. Here in the mid-west where I live, not only can we get some decent snow, but we have TONS of hills and back-roads. Not only do I feel that I've never had any problems with my "all-season" tires, but I feel they've kept me from getting into problems.
> 
> So as you're entitled to your OPINION on the subject, don't try to tell me I'm just a "lucky" driver.



Well I won't tell you that you are "lucky", there is a difference between traditional all season tires and all terrain tires that generally have some (not all) of the qualities of winter tires. It all depends on what you consider nasty winter weather too. All terrains are pretty tolerable in snow, especially fresh snow, but they are lacking when the snow gets packed down and/or icy. As you have 4WD you are always going to be able to get moving, but realistically your braking and handling are not as good as a dedicated winter tire. It just isn't and saying that it is does not make it so. There are far too many tests that show dedicated winters are better.

I had an SUV and a nastry long slopped driveway for many years. The All Terrains were tolerable, but my wife with Blizzaks on her car started to refuse to drive the SUV in winter as she did not feel comfortable. Eventually I broke down and got Blizzaks on the SUV too. Night and day really in terms of how the vehicle performed especially when it got a bit icy.

Semiman


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 16, 2012)

Easy here guys. Let's try and avoid statements that others might consider "offensive", and likewise, let's not be overly offended by statements by others. Lot's of different opinions here, so let's respect each others opinions.

Bill


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## jorn (Oct 17, 2012)

Using winter spesific tires 8-9 months of the year.. Driving around with ugly looking rims with slim tires most of the year. It's normal to have 2 or even 3 set of rims for your car here. And most pepole use spiked ones. Have tested all seson.. no way. no more. I guess they are good for semi winter'ish conditions. Spikless winter spesific tires was way better, but on polished ice...:thumbsdow... no way, no more. 
I like huge spikes that grinds asphalt and makes little kids breathe the fine dust so they get asthma  They are safe for the driver atleast  A good set of winter tires is the best and cheapest insurance you can get in winterland


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## Fresh Light (Oct 17, 2012)

I live in central WI and know what winter is all about. Using all season tires and thinking that it's "good enough" is foolish. By not having an accident or missing work not to mention the relative lack of white knuckle driving, make winter tires the only way to go. I've only used the Blizzaks, and they have been excellent. Anybody have any other tire brand related suggestions or experience. I may get a new set this year for the truck as well.


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## jorn (Oct 17, 2012)

Lets all be friends and discuss tires, not eachother 
Just remember to keep winter tires away from daylight when storing them off season. Daylight will harden the soft rubber, making them way less grippy for the next winter. The small groves and the soft rubber in winter tires act like a spunge, removing the microscopic waterlayer that forms under your tires. 
The funny thing about tires is that it might not preform at all on your car. Some years ago i got some really lo budget tires. They were dangerously bad on most conditions, and i had to drive silly slow to avoid loosing grip constantly. Couldent drive faster and it's a huge problem on narrow icy roads with almost no sthetches for the angry pepole behind me to pass. One of my friends had the exatc same problem with a lo budget brand of tires (in the same dimentions as mine). We swapped, and it suddenly got grippy for both of us.. really grippy. I hear alot of pepole is experiencing the same thing . Tires wont grip, then they swap them on their second car (in desperation), and both cars suddenly have lots of grip. 

There is no tire that's best on all cars in all conditions. Tires are all about compromises, so what woks best will always be determined by the roadstandard, terrain and conditions where we drive. Sometimes the brand of cars will play a huge role on the preformance from same set of tires. in the same conditions. 
I think it would be interesting if we posted the typical driving conditions our winter will offer, and what type of car/tires combo works for us.


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## Launch Mini (Oct 17, 2012)

I used to think All Seasons were great, until I got a set of winter tires.
Around here, we only get to freezing a few days a year, so in the winter we are just above freezing with rain most of the time. Then when it does snow, it quickly turns to slush/ice for a few days.
I have made it a winter on summer tires, made it many winters on all seasons, then I got a high powered car ( rear wheel drive) and a proper set of winter tires.
What a difference they made, so much I got my wife a set for her front wheel drive car.

When the temp drops below 7C, the all seasons do get harder, and noticably less traction as a result. The good winter tires stay soft, disperse the rain, slush & snow very nicely, and BRAKING is much much better. Comparing same cars from all season to winter.
I have been paying attention, and temps are starting to drop ( lows are 3C, Highs still in the 15ish area), and I can feel my traction changing. It won't be long until I swap them over.

Now, on our all wheel drive vehicle, I did go with an all season that is winter rated. Not M&S, but true winter rated. These things kick arse too. Obviously not as good as true winters, but much better than 'regular" all seasons that do not have the Mountain Snowflake symbol.

Remember, the only thing between you, your car & the road is the rubber, don't skimp. IMO
If you live in SoCal, all seasons will be fine.


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## Empath (Oct 17, 2012)

Many posts, by two members, were removed as a means of civility control, rule 4 violation, and failure to adhere to a moderator's admonition.

If either of the two of you contribute any additional posts to this thread, please consider his words:



Bullzeyebill said:


> Easy here guys. Let's try and avoid statements that others might consider "offensive", and likewise, let's not be overly offended by statements by others. Lot's of different opinions here, so let's respect each others opinions.
> 
> Bill


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Oct 17, 2012)

I think the one part of the OP which has been ignored most is the 'which'. I would like to see more posts from people using winters which ones they use/used, on what type of vehicle, their experiences in different weather, how many seasons you've gotten out of them and if you'd buy them again.

As far as my experience goes:
- Audi sedan w/ quattro - Bridgestone (can't remember which). Got three seasons out of them. The third season I moved and because the summers were packed up I had to run the winters well into 70 degree weather. When it got that hot it felt like I was driving on squishy sponges and I cringed that I was leaving a black trail of rubber behind me. Could've got a fourth winter but I traded in the car.
- SUV - Pirelli Scopion Ice and Snow - I've only had these for one season on my wife's SUV but they were very nice. Too early to say if I would buy again.
- SUV - Bridgestone DM-V1 - I'll be getting these shortly for this winter for my SUV. Their reviews on TireRack are quite good.

The one thing I would say is be careful with some of the cheaper after market wheels if you go that route. A lot of them are gravity cast and much softer than OEM. With winter conditions being what they are with more potholes they can be bent more easily.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 17, 2012)

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> The one thing I would say is be careful with some of the cheaper after market wheels if you go that route. A lot of them are gravity cast and much softer than OEM. With winter conditions being what they are with more potholes they can be bent more easily.


Are more expensive wheels forged or vacuum cast then?


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Oct 18, 2012)

From what I have seen (and believe me, I am not an expert on this subject matter) TireRack seems to carry the gravity cast, low pressure cast and forged. And yes, there is a significant price difference. They sell:
Gravity Cast - ~$150-200 "Sport Edition" brand are soft junk. I had a dented rim after driving 1000 miles and not hitting any big potholes or curbs that I know of. My mechanic said the metal was very soft.

Low-Pressure Cast - ~$200-300 Enkei brand. I had a few sets of these and I can say that they are great rims for the money. Light, strong, round and easy to balance - an excellent rim.

Forged - ~$500+ - BBS - Top of the line and very expensive. You get what you pay for.

My new direction for snow rims is to get a used set of OEM wheels for that brand of car. IMO OEM rims are usually better quality than after market stuff. I go to Craigslist and the forums to look for a set. I tried ebay but I was burned bad on a misrepresented set so I will never do that route again.


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## jorn (Oct 18, 2012)

Using nokian hakkaleliitta 4 on a bmw touring. 2 seasons on the front wheels, this is the fourth on the rear wheels. I prob need to change the rear wheels during this winter, they are down to 3mm and have lost a lot of spikes. They dident feel good at the end of last season. The square spikes seems to work well on packed ice/snow.
Driving conditions during winter can be awful. The gulf current heats up the area, and moist air gives lots of snow. Tempratures switches between melting and deep freezing depending on pressure and wind direction. Usually between+2C to -20C. Roads is packed with melting or frozen snow.
It's a circus here during cold response. (there are so many pepole here not used to the winter roads and conditions at once) Even police cars have been rammed by a "sliding bambi on ice" Espesially when it's around 0C, and the roads gets extra slippery. Canadian and scandinavian drivers seems to stay on the road better. We havent towed too many out yet during a "tow patrol mainia" . So there is no doubt that the driver needs to be used to snow, and drive in a well planned and smooth manner here.


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## Launch Mini (Oct 18, 2012)

Tires
On the Front Wheel Drive Vehicle - Gislaveds. Amazing. Best winter tires I've owned. Used on car for long trips in the winter.
On Rear Wheel drive - Eagle Ultra Grip GW2 ( I don't drive in much snow)
Daughters Car and an AWD Vehicle - Nokian WRG2. These are "all weather" tires with the Mountain Snowflake symbol. Great in the snow & ice, good in rain & summer, but noisy. Have many clients who use these and are pleased.


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## jorn (Oct 18, 2012)

Used gislaved norfrost 5 on my old toyota mr2, worked great. But the car was too lo and stiff for any comfort at all, and got stuck if more than 15-20 cm fresh snow on my parking lot.. So got late to work a lot every winter haha. But grip wise it was incredible. Drowe up icy hills and passed stuck suv's with bad wheels several times. You bet they gave me a look when slowly and genlty passed them in a lowered little 2 seater haha.


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## StarHalo (Oct 18, 2012)

You're already saving money if you're going with a smaller diameter snow tire, get the basic steel utility wheels; no point in spending a load on sport wheels that will be completely caked in salt and slurry after a few miles anyway. 

This is correct: winter on left, summer on right, properly sized using the plus system:


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## orbital (Oct 18, 2012)

^

when I see someone w/ the dedicated dark rim winter setup, I breath a sigh of relief
...for the safety of them, and more importantly,,, _everyone else_.




..


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## 127.0.0.1 (Oct 18, 2012)

orbital said:


> ^
> 
> when I see someone w/ the dedicated dark rim winter setup, I breath a sigh of relief
> ...for the safety of them, and more importantly,,, _everyone else_.
> ...



yup ^. couldn't live with myself and have snows, when GF has all seasons. 

for her B-day soon, it is a delivery from the
michelin man... 4 Xi2 balanced and mounted on new Ford-built basic black steel wheels


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## kaichu dento (Oct 18, 2012)

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> From what I have seen (and believe me, I am not an expert on this subject matter) TireRack seems to carry the gravity cast, low pressure cast and forged. And yes, there is a significant price difference. They sell:
> Gravity Cast - ~$150-200 "Sport Edition" brand are soft junk. I had a dented rim after driving 1000 miles and not hitting any big potholes or curbs that I know of. My mechanic said the metal was very soft.
> 
> Low-Pressure Cast - ~$200-300 Enkei brand. I had a few sets of these and I can say that they are great rims for the money. Light, strong, round and easy to balance - an excellent rim.
> ...


Thanks for the rundown on the differences, something I'd never given any thought to, since I've always been a stock-wheels user. I would assume that most manufacturer supplied aluminum wheels, including my Subaru, would be the vacuum cast variety? 

If I ever were to go with two sets of tires I think I'd probably just go to the wreckers and get another stock set of wheels. I'm sure that steel wheels are probably the strongest, but the additional weight counts into the handling equation as well.


jorn said:


> Using nokian hakkaleliitta 4 on a bmw touring. 2 seasons on the front wheels, this is the fourth on the rear wheels. I prob need to change the rear wheels during this winter, they are down to 3mm and have lost a lot of spikes. They dident feel good at the end of last season. The square spikes seems to work well on packed ice/snow.
> Driving conditions during winter can be awful. The gulf current heats up the area, and moist air gives lots of snow. Tempratures switches between melting and deep freezing depending on pressure and wind direction. Usually between+2C to -20C. Roads is packed with melting or frozen snow.
> It's a circus here during cold response. (there are so many pepole here not used to the winter roads and conditions at once) Even police cars have been rammed by a "sliding bambi on ice" Espesially when it's around 0C, and the roads gets extra slippery. Canadian and scandinavian drivers seems to stay on the road better. We havent towed too many out yet during a "tow patrol mainia" . So there is no doubt that the driver needs to be used to snow, and drive in a well planned and smooth manner here.


Can't agree enough about the driver needing to understand what it is they're doing and the majority of Alaskans going off the road are newcomers, the younger drivers and the sleepy ones! 

I remember helping a lady get 'unstuck' at an intersection with a slight uphill in the spring a few years back, and her studded tires on the four wheel drive weren't enough to get her moving, since she kept flooring the throttle every time we got it to start moving. Finally we got her to just gently allow the vehicle to start moving and keep the throttle easy.

You're using a cousin of one of the tires I strongly considered, the Nokian Hakkapeliitta R, which only got sidelined due to lack of funds. 

I actually think driving conditions, as far as ice, slush and road-ridges are much worse down south due to the more moderate temperatures and the main advantage we have in the north when it comes to experience with winter driving, is that winter is so much closer together up here than it is down south!


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## orbital (Oct 18, 2012)

^ 

careful with the stock wheel thought

because winter tire performance comes from the taller/softer sidewalls
actually much taller sidewalls than stock setup.
~ Winter tires sole function is gripping packed snow & ice,,,, its the _give _in the tire, combined w/ the sipes and soft rubber compound ~


:: if Top Fuel dragsters had stiff sidewall tires in the back, they wouldn't go 5 feet.
the _give _in a tire is very complex & very important.



I hope that makes sense.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 18, 2012)

StarHalo said:


> You're already saving money if you're going with a smaller diameter snow tire, get the basic steel utility wheels; no point in spending a load on sport wheels that will be completely caked in salt and slurry after a few miles anyway.
> 
> This is correct: winter on left, summer on right, properly sized using the plus system:



A picture is worth a thousand words! I like the fact that your summer wheels still have a little bit of sidewall, as opposed to some of the don't-ever-take-them-on-a-dirt-road wheels I've been seeing the last couple of years!



orbital said:


> careful with the stock wheel thought
> 
> because winter tire performance comes from the taller/softer sidewalls
> actually much taller sidewalls than stock setup.
> ...


Since I've never had anything newer than about 10 years old, all my wheels have always taken tires with taller sidewalls, but that's a good point to make. I'm not a really aggressive driver, and as such have always been happy with the trade-off between better handling on asphalt and a bit of give that non-racetrack tires allow.


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## StarHalo (Oct 19, 2012)

kaichu dento said:


> I like the fact that your summer wheels still have a little bit of sidewall



Pic is from the internet; I live in Southern California, it rains 30 days out of the year and there is no winter. But growing up in the midwest and having some harrowing instances on snow-covered black ice taught me that there is no such thing as too much traction..


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## Johnny2Bad (Oct 19, 2012)

It is _critically important_ that you choose winter tires based on your specific local conditions. Right off the bat, that tends to diminish the value of asking in a forum with a wide audience from a wide geographic area. Look to the advice and experiences of others who live a few hundred miles from you, and with every increase in distance, derate the advice. Not because it's bad ... chances are that they are giving honest advice based on their experiences and hard earned cash outlays ... but because they have different weather than you do.

Making matters more complex, different vehicles in the exact same conditions may need different solutions tire-wise. My FWD car and my RWD truck don't use the same winter tire, and it would be a mistake to choose a given brand/model winter tire from someone who drives a different weight/type of vehicle.

I've used dedicated winter "ice radial" type tires on all my vehicles for more than 20 years. Using very highly rated ice radials that are popular in Eastern Canada proved to be a disaster ... they were the worst I've used by a significant margin here in Western Canada (Nokian Hakkapolita LT Load Range C on a "1/2 ton" what Canadians call a "pickup" over beers). Yet in warmer, wetter, slushier and heavier snowfall Southern Ontario, or in the Lower Mainland of BC, apparently they're fantastic. I went back to Coopers and it's like night and day (Weatherall LT's, which aren't made anymore, were outstanding. Now using Discoverer AT3s, which are not a true ice radial, but instead a M&S rated tire with a winter-ish silica impregnated compound and yeah, the mountain symbol. Load Range E's).

On the other hand, same weather, different application, my FWD car uses Continental ExtremeWinterContacts, which are the best I've used so far on a car. I've ventured out in blizzards with 8+ inches of accumulated snow, where I never saw another non-4wd vehicle all day, when the RCMP are advising against any travel whatsoever, when my front air dam is plowing snow, and had zero issues. We normally only get 1 or maybe 2 big snowfalls a winter so deep snow performance isn't a priority, and yet they still perform excellent on dry frozen, wet, and ice-covered roads. Better than Blizzaks, much better than Michelin X-ice, and leaving the Hakkapolitas in the dust.

But unless you live where I live, that may not be of any use to you whatsoever. In North America, 500 miles can be a long way when it comes to local weather conditions. The tires I love may be substandard, the tires I hate may be perfect for you. Your best bet is to start focusing in a smaller circle, perhaps in local forums, rather than here or some other forum with a big footprint geographically.

With regard to wheel size for snow or ice, although using the Plus-size calculators backwards to move to a smaller wheel/taller tire combo is useful, much more important is to narrow the tire width. If the tire you want forces you to compromise, go with the option that gives you a narrower tire even if it means you need to run a slightly shorter sidewall than the chart recommends. If you have the clearance in your wheel wells, by all means look at a narrower and taller tire, but if the exact right size can't be found for some reason, compromise on height, not width.

Your speedo isn't accurate in the first place, as a quick check with a GPS using brand new tires in the OEM tire size will quickly tell you. It's probably out at least 5% from the factory, reading high (speedo says 60 mph, you're doing 55) which is standard OEM calibration practice. These days there is not much keeping almost anyone from checking the speedo vs actual speed over ground with a GPS so do that whenever you change tires, and maybe tomorrow morning on whatever you're driving now.

Another thing about any really grippy-on-ice or soft-below-zero-F tire ... the winter compound is only on the outside of the tread. The short answer is it's just not technically possible to build a true cold-weather compound tire any other way. Put some miles on them, and visually there's lots of tread left, but you've worn past the special compound. So they are going to act like more ordinary tires at that point. No winter tire is as good as a summer tire or even an all-season when the temps get above about 40F ... braking distance is poor, for example ... but you can use them for a spare, saving you the cost of buying 5 of either summer or winter tires just for an emergency that might not happen.

A final advantage of going to a proper winter tire is you can now get proper summer tires, which are better than any all or 3-season tire when summer comes along.

Studded tires are an option in some locations, not an option (legal limits or bans) in others. If you're not in the city, and deal with ice or hard-packed snow most of the time, they are great for traction, but in any condition other than that they are the poorest of the bunch for stopping distance, handling, etc. That includes below-zero dry pavement. If you know you need them, and live somewhere where they are allowed, use them, but otherwise avoid. You have to choose to stud your tires when you buy them; you can't add studs to a tire that's been on the road even for a few miles.


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## Launch Mini (Oct 19, 2012)

Well said Johnny2Bad.
Talk to some of the local tire shops where you live. They know the weather you get & the conditions to expect, and most importantly, your vehicle.

What I really need, is a bunch of spare tires hanging around the sides of my car in the winter ( like a boat bumper system), to keep all the other drivers, who did not get winter tires, from tagging me.


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## chmsam (Oct 19, 2012)

My two cents worth are based on living in upstate NY, about 25+ years of amateur road rallying in the winter months, and seeing a lot of idiots on the road at any time of the year but even more in snow and ice.

So... 

The number one thing to learn is that no matter how fast you can get going on any sort of tire, sooner or later you have to turn and stop. That's what you want to learn how to do. Moving off the line is easy and the rest takes a lot more practice.


For passenger cars, look at Nokian tires. The WRG2 tires are the ONLY true all-season tire I've ever found. They are asymmetrical and will work in winter and summer. They won't "go away" rapidly in the warm weather like other snows. They are a bit noisier than other tires but worth it. They'll cost a bit more than other good tires but you won't have the hassle of switching them over in different seasons and they're pretty good in the rain and the mud too.

Nokian also has snow tires and studded tires. It's also good to know that there are different size studs too -- one size does not fit all conditions so ask and choose wisely.

Blizzaks and Michelins are good choices too.


Mostly, learn how to drive in any condition. A good all weather driving course is a smart choice. As I said before, getting moving is only a small part of the concept. Avoiding the other idiots on the road and the "ditch magnets" being turned on are both good things too.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 19, 2012)

Launch Mini said:


> What I really need, is a bunch of spare tires hanging around the sides of my car in the winter ( like a boat bumper system), to keep all the other drivers, who did not get winter tires, from tagging me.


You need to post pics when you do - you're going to look like a tug boat! 
Don't worry about looking at the tires on the other cars though, because it will depend less on what tires they've got than it will on whether they can drive or not.


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## TedTheLed (Oct 20, 2012)

Launch, I think that would be illegal, of course. What I know is illegal, here anyway, are wood timber bumpers.. was considering this for a female friend who often became directionally challenged in her car... but wouldnt you know it, playing bumper cars on the highway is frowned upon in this state...


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## Cyclops942 (Oct 21, 2012)

TedTheLed said:


> Launch, I think that would be illegal, of course. What I know is illegal, here anyway, are wood timber bumpers.. was considering this for a female friend who often became directionally challenged in her car... but wouldnt you know it, playing bumper cars on the highway is frowned upon in this state...


Those darn Californian legislators won't let us have ANY fun!


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## baterija (Oct 22, 2012)

127.0.0.1 said:


> Do you also use full winters and switch over for the season ?



I don't. I simply have no place to keep an extra set of tires let alonethe absolute pain of trying to move them all the time. I'm on the third place I've called home in about 31 months with a move coming before year end. Most of my adult life has been in Michigan. I grew up just south of the Michigan line in Toledo and recall driving back in the snow from a college visit on my learner's permit...with mom not always fully alert monitoring me. :O I've managed. Equipment and skill would be even better, but you manage within the limits of the practical.


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## Launch Mini (Oct 22, 2012)

This thread has me thinking it is getting close to swapping mine over. Highs this week 8C, lows 3, but had frost this morning.
We could still warm up, just black ice that might get interesting along my morning drive.
I think I'll wait till mid Nov. 
This year it will be a pain to swap, as I have a Cab version of my car. The 4 tires barely fit in the old one. I doubt I could get 2 in my car this winter. Will need wife to follow to tire shop to drop off the winters, then come with me to bring home the summer tires.
If the car wasn't new, and I didn't have the 4 winters on rims in the shed, I would probably just have bought 4 new Nokians


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## jorn (Oct 24, 2012)

The snow arrived toay. I hate snow.. Was "sitting on needles" all the way to work.. And arrived late.. But better late than not at all. I really need to change those worn rear tires.





Drove past 3 crashed (foreign) trucks on the way from work today. 2 of them had prob toutched. One was still on the road, and the other one was 7-8 meters offroad, just some few meters from going into the sea. Around the next bend, there was a new one. Looked like he couldent make the steep hill. They usually dont use or (even bring) chains or got winter tires. Always in a hurry to make a fast buck.. and end up ruening the truck


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Oct 24, 2012)

jorn - I would love to live where you do. That just looks so awesome. And you just call that the start of the season? In the Northeast US that would be a lot for one snowfall. (BTW - I should note I love driving in the snow  )

Some good stuff in this thread over the past week. Glad it took a turn for the better. 

I would love to be able to get steel rims for my SUV but they don't make anything in that size. It's mostly only sedans or wagons that can benefit from inexpensive steel wheels. I did find a good used set of VW rims for my truck. I would've liked to go down to a 17" but the price was right on a used set of 18". I can still run a thinner tire on the 18" which is equal to the 17" just not quite as much sidewall. But I think the sidewall is enough at 235/60/18 that I won't have any major concerns.


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## orbital (Oct 24, 2012)

+

jorn, that's an absolutely perfect picture of_ snow tire conditions,_.....*packed snow & ice*

thanks for posting that~ 




****I'll also like to give a shout out to manufactures that have good traction control,
the type that's _minimally invasive,_,,
Best I drove so far was on a newer Acura MDX , it's absolutely perfect.
you can hammer the throttle in tough snow conditions with just a slight slip, but still in complete confidence.:thumbsup:


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## SemiMan (Oct 24, 2012)

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> In the Northeast US that would be a lot for one snowfall. (BTW - I should note I love driving in the snow  )



I guess you are not including Syracuse, Buffalo, Rochester, Utica from the Northeast? .... I don't blame you of course ;-) 

Semiman


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Oct 24, 2012)

I would like to add to this thread that I grew up driving a 1982 Oldsmobile Delta88 with a 5.0L V8 rear wheel drive with R&S Strauss by 3 get the 4th one free all season tires. I never got stuck once driving in any kind of conditions you can imagine up to 1 foot of snow on the ground.

fast forward 25 years and would say that I still prefer rear wheel drive because I think it give you more control - in the snow too a - you can control your turns directly with the steering and the throttle more than with front wheel drive.

i wouldn't want to go back to that's old setup, but it always worked. I still feel safer at the end of the day with snow tires and awd.


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## jorn (Oct 24, 2012)

Yeah, it's the first day with snow, and by now it's another 10cm... The first weeks driving on snow is always the worst. Got to get used to all the sliding and sudden over/under steer. I dont relax behind the wheels before some weeks is past, and have gotten the winter feeling in my fingers and my back


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## SemiMan (Oct 25, 2012)

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> I would like to add to this thread that I grew up driving a 1982 Oldsmobile Delta88 with a 5.0L V8 rear wheel drive with R&S Strauss by 3 get the 4th one free all season tires. I never got stuck once driving in any kind of conditions you can imagine up to 1 foot of snow on the ground.
> 
> fast forward 25 years and would say that I still prefer rear wheel drive because I think it give you more control - in the snow too a - you can control your turns directly with the steering and the throttle more than with front wheel drive.
> 
> i wouldn't want to go back to that's old setup, but it always worked. I still feel safer at the end of the day with snow tires and awd.




Those 1982 5.0L were pretty low on the horsepower, about 150 (or less). There are some sites that claim higher, but that is not the case. That was coupled to a 3sp automatic. They did not put a ton of torque into the rear wheels. I learned to drive on the 5.0L Malibu. I had a Nissan 240 for a while too. I will take rear wheel drive in the summer any day of the week. In the winter though, give me front or 4wd. Most cars with the exception of sports cars have a front weight bias so simple physics gives you more starting traction with front wheel drive at least in snow. That all changes when its dry.

Semiman


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## kaichu dento (Oct 25, 2012)

Definitely a big fan of having all four wheels helping out with the steering!


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## think2x (Oct 25, 2012)

The wife's Outback with the old setup. 225/50/18 Yokohama Avid TRZ's wrapped around some old discontinued 18x7 Enkei RSF-2's. It did very well with this setup.






Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I have thought about getting dedicated winter tires but with FOUR vehicles to keep up with, it's just too much for me. I talked to the wife and we decided to go a slightly "different" route this year. The old rubber was dead now (3/32") so we decided to go back to a factory sized rim. She's now running '99 Chrysler Sebring 16" rims with 215/65/16 General Grabber AT2's. Can't wait to see what this combo can handle.


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## StarHalo (Oct 25, 2012)

think2x said:


> 225/50/18
> 215/65/16



One of those sets is sized wrong..


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Oct 25, 2012)

SemiMan said:


> Those 1982 5.0L were pretty low on the horsepower, about 150 (or less). There are some sites that claim higher, but that is not the case. That was coupled to a 3sp automatic. They did not put a ton of torque into the rear wheels. I learned to drive on the 5.0L Malibu. I had a Nissan 240 for a while too. I will take rear wheel drive in the summer any day of the week. In the winter though, give me front or 4wd. Most cars with the exception of sports cars have a front weight bias so simple physics gives you more starting traction with front wheel drive at least in snow. That all changes when its dry.
> 
> Semiman



Actually you are a bit off. It was a Cadillac V8 engine. You could look at it a bit like having a diesel kind of torque curve. It was low on HP at 140, but it had 250ft-lbs torque a 4-barrel carb and a 4-speed overdrive tranny. And you could toast the rear wheels from a dead stop. It was quite a powerful vehicle for the time.

My point that it was RWD and pretty powerful and if you weren't a good driver it could get you in trouble in the snow.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Oct 25, 2012)

Anyone know if Bridgestone is going to have one of those buy 4 get $50-$75 cards anytime soon. I am trying to hold out a bit on my winter tire purchase to save a few bucks.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Oct 25, 2012)

StarHalo said:


> One of those sets is sized wrong..



not from what I figure

they are nearly identical


Diameter inches (mm)26.86 (682.2)27 (685.9)0.15 (3.7) *0.5%*Width inches (mm)8.86 (225)8.46 (215)-0.39 (-10) *-4.4%*Circum. inches (mm)84.38 (2143.19)84.84 (2154.82)0.46 (11.62) *0.5%*Sidewall Height inches (mm)4.43 (112.5)5.5 (139.75)1.07 (27.25) *24.2%*Revolutions per mile (km)750.91 (466.59)746.86 (464.08)-4.05 (-2.52) *-0.5%*




20 mph (32.19 km/h)20.11 mph (32.36 km/h)25 mph (40.23 km/h)25.14 mph (40.45 km/h)30 mph (48.28 km/h)30.16 mph (48.54 km/h)35 mph (56.33 km/h)35.19 mph (56.63 km/h)40 mph (64.37 km/h)40.22 mph (64.72 km/h)45 mph (72.42 km/h)45.24 mph (72.81 km/h)50 mph (80.47 km/h)50.27 mph (80.9 km/h)55 mph (88.51 km/h)55.3 mph (88.99 km/h)60 mph (96.56 km/h)60.33 mph (97.08 km/h)65 mph (104.61 km/h)65.35 mph (105.17 km/h)


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## StarHalo (Oct 25, 2012)

127.0.0.1 said:


> not from what I figure



It's close, but the properly sized tire would have been narrower, which is the whole point..


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## tjswarbrick (Oct 26, 2012)

Great thread. The driver makes the biggest difference. But as with lights, knives, skis, and nearly everything else - having better equipment puts you in a better position to use your skills, and can oftentimes save your skin or help make a bad situation less bad. 

When I lived in Colorado, I had dedicated studded snows. It was before Blizzak's - started with a "V", I think. Very highly regarded in the mid-'80's.
They would pull me through anything, but I learned very quickly that you need more than two!

Now, I live where it snows once every 16 years, and I only make it up to ski once or twice a year so dedicated snows just don't make sense for me.

I've taken extreme performance summer tires (Dunlop Sport 8000's) to Tahoe. With chains, they got me there okay. Without chains, a less-than-4% grade stopped me in my tracks.

In my old Jetta on Bridgestone high-perf all-seasons, I had no trouble on the grade or the bends while my buddy in his compact 4WD Toyota with mud tires was sliding around quite a bit.

Now that I'm a family man, I don't seem to need that last 5% of dry traction, so my wife and I have ExtremeContact DWS on my RWD Mercedes and her FWD Volvo. They are sticky, balanced, forgiving, quiet, comfy and amazing in the wet. I hope to find out how they do in the slippery stuff in a couple months. They blow our stock Michelins and Pirellis out of the water on ALL fronts. I've been very impressed with them, but in all honesty I'll probably get some summer tires for the Merc next time. Generally, if we're going to the snow, we'll take the wagon - which means FWD.


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## jorn (Oct 26, 2012)

Got 2 hours late to work today.. After only 3 days with snow.. This is why i HATE snow. 





Memo to myself. When the car door makes a little angel in the snow, I should not try to just ram my car out of my driveway.. because i prob will make it worse..




I almost made it..





But the car ended up floating on the snow and i had to get down on my knees and dig out packed wet snow under my car. Wheels had no contact with the ground at all... I think they are 195/65/16.


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## TEEJ (Oct 26, 2012)

jorn said:


> Got 2 hours late to work today.. After only 3 days with snow.. This is why i HATE snow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, soft snow like that requires fatter tires to float better/not sink in and high center you.



Most cars don't have the room in the wheel wells to fit them wide enough though....or the ground clearance to keep the body/drivetrain up out of the snow, etc.


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## jorn (Oct 26, 2012)

No tire will matter in wet snow like this. The whole car will be ending up floating because the bottom of the car will have more area and "lift" than all the tires combined. Dry snow is not that compact, and not that hard to ram trough. Rammed my way trough yesterday after a really snowy night, but it was below freezing so the snow wasnt heavy and got pushed to the sides.

The superwide ones are designed to float on top of frozen snow. The top layer gets pretty hard when melted/frozen some times. Then put into a long deep freeze. I can walk on snow with a frozen top layer without sinking to my hips. Now and then i crack the top layer and sink, but overall it holds my weight pretty good. Cant do that on fresh wet snow. And theese conditions are never seen on any road i know of (1meters snow with frozen top layer). 
Would never go any wider on the winter tires unless my car is really heavy. No need to float if i make it off my driveway and reach the road. And the narrow wheels will cut right trough the slush/snow and the spikes get's a grip on something firm (ice) instead of floating on top of slush (with no control) when i get up in speed. No one uses wide tires around here, not twice  Im used to 185 winter tires on the other cars i have owned


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## TEEJ (Oct 26, 2012)

Yeah, it all depends on how deep is deep, and how soft is soft.

You don't need wide tires to float on ice, but you do for softer snow...like a snowshoe. The fatter tires distribute the weight better so you don't sink down to the car body like you did above.

Of course, if you make it out of the driveway, and the road is covered with hard packed snow or ice, the same wide tires might be more toboggan-like than you'd like.


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## jorn (Oct 26, 2012)

You dont want to float on anything when driving in traffic. Thats when bad stuff happens. You want the rubber to hit the hard ground with good pressure. The narrow tires slices trough snow/slush/water and gets grip on the hard surface below. I want my tires to reach the hard ground in any conditions. Thats what makes me able to steer. 
The super wide "arctic truck"ones with almost no airpressure are not that good in traffic. You can have fun offroad with a "arctic truck" on solid frozen snow, or softer ground. But it will have the opposite effect of what we want when driving at higher speeds in slippery winter traffic. 

If the snow is way deeper than the ground clearance, and not frozen solid in any of it's layers, then you wont get too far with any set of wheels.


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## orbital (Oct 26, 2012)

+

When we have a 3-day snowstorm, I snowblow & shovel out *several *times for that one snowstorm event.
Doing it all at once is waaaay to hard.

Then its 1-2-3 to get to your main road,,,,which will likely be plowed.


btw, I'm not ready for snow yet, still dealing w/ leaves.


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## think2x (Oct 26, 2012)

StarHalo said:


> It's close, but the properly sized tire would have been narrower, which is the whole point..



The factory size is 225/60/16 which is 26.6" Diameter. The Enkei 18" set was 1/4" taller than OEM. The new Grabbers are slightly taller still at 27". People on the Outback forum run as big as 28" with a small lift but the size I chose is the biggest you should go with stock suspension.
I research EVERYTHING before I purchase.


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## TEEJ (Oct 26, 2012)

jorn said:


> You dont want to float on anything when driving in traffic. Thats when bad stuff happens. You want the rubber to hit the hard ground with good pressure. The narrow tires slices trough snow/slush/water and gets grip on the hard surface below. I want my tires to reach the hard ground in any conditions. Thats what makes me able to steer.
> The super wide "arctic truck"ones with almost no airpressure are not that good in traffic. You can have fun offroad with a "arctic truck" on solid frozen snow, or softer ground. But it will have the opposite effect of what we want when driving at higher speeds in slippery winter traffic.
> 
> If the snow is way deeper than the ground clearance, and not frozen solid in any of it's layers, then you wont get too far with any set of wheels.




Hence the toboggan-like traction.



(Yes - Narrow is better if you WANT to sink down and there's something down there to gain traction on, like pavement, etc. Fatter is better if your tires can't reach the pavement, etc. The ground doesn't have to be frozen for a snow shoe to work...merely able to compress with sufficient resistance to match the distributed weight on it, etc....called flotation, etc. This is why snow shoes work, and can support a man on top of soft, unfrozen snow.)

On streets and hard surfaces with slush, and other penetrable strata...the narrower treads increase penetration and traction on the substrate. This is more like when you'd wear crampons instead of snow shoes.





My only point is that the mantra of ONLY narrow tread being useful in snow is wrong...and the context is when the snow shoe effect can be beneficial.


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## jorn (Oct 26, 2012)

For most pepole it's not wrong. Most pepole dont creep on top of 1meter frozen snow in 5-10 mph like the iceland trucks does (when the season allows it). And you cant drive on top of 1 meter soft snow with any wheels. If you need to do that, you buy a snowmobile. Even snowmobiles (the owerpowered ones with extra long belts) can easely get stuck in too deep and soft snow (or extremly wet slush). 
You can walk on soft snow with snow shoes, but you weigh less than a car. + snowshoes are flat and you lift your feets when you walk. Your car cant lift the tire out of its track + the tire is round. Thats not a great shape if you want to float on soft snow. They need to be meters wide and have a huge diameter to have the same (flat) contact area as a single flat snowshoe has. 

Roads are plowed, and if they are not, all traffic stops. If you float on top of something loose, youll loose control more often than you would like and you would prob not be able to follow the normal traffic speed.


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## TEEJ (Oct 26, 2012)

Correct.


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## StarHalo (Oct 27, 2012)

think2x said:


> I research EVERYTHING before I purchase.



Good to hear; I'd be more worried about gas mileage than the suspension, but I'm glad somebody thought of it


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## StarHalo (Oct 27, 2012)

I GOT A SUV, I CAN JUST DRIVE WHEREVER IN THE SNOW..


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## kaichu dento (Oct 27, 2012)

TEEJ said:


> You don't need wide tires to float on ice, but you do for softer snow...like a snowshoe. The fatter tires distribute the weight better so you don't sink down to the car body like you did above.


Absolutely do not want wider tires for more flotation unless you're talking about going off-roading, in which case the tires you'd want will be wider than you want for driving on regular roads.


jorn said:


> You dont want to float on anything when driving in traffic. Thats when bad stuff happens. You want the rubber to hit the hard ground with good pressure. The narrow tires slices trough snow/slush/water and gets grip on the hard surface below. I want my tires to reach the hard ground in any conditions. Thats what makes me able to steer.
> The super wide "arctic truck"ones with almost no airpressure are not that good in traffic. You can have fun offroad with a "arctic truck" on solid frozen snow, or softer ground. But it will have the opposite effect of what we want when driving at higher speeds in slippery winter traffic.
> 
> If the snow is way deeper than the ground clearance, and not frozen solid in any of it's layers, then you wont get too far with any set of wheels.


This is exactly right and the best approach would have been to do what he already suspected he needed to do, but hoped that he wouldn't have to - dig at least tire trenches the whole way to driveable ground, and at least knocking the top down where the snow was already higher than the suspension would clear. 

In this situation a lot can be done just by tracking on foot and knocking the snow down, compacting it a bit. As Jorn said, the worst thing he was fighting wasn't the snow depth, but the consistency.


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## MichaelW (Oct 28, 2012)

Quality winter tires have winter compound the entire tread depth-Michelin, Bridgestone, Goodyear, etc. Blizzak's 'tube multi-cell' compound extends only the top 55%

Contact pressure: Since the tread block configuration can not be changed dynamically [check back in 100 years], the only way to adjust contact pressure is to adjust inflation pressure.
In very light rain/sleet/slush/snow better traction is achieved through higher contact pressure. (increasing from 30 to 45psi)
In deeper snow, enhanced traction occurs when the vehicle doesn't sink. Progress is hampered because you have to move up a gravitational gradient with very little tire traction (and you usually spin the tire, and fall back down), just to move forward. So in such a situation cutting back inflation pressure from 30 to 15psi would be better. That is why you need a tire pressure gauge for winter.
Tire companies have already empirically demonstrated that snow:snow has better traction than tire:snow. This is the purpose of sipes [maybe more correctly called kerfs], to hold snow in the tire, which interlocks with snow on the ground, resulting in superior traction.

Once you go winter tire, you don't go back to no-seasons. (start from page 81)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Sy...e+popular+mechanics&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false


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## SemiMan (Oct 28, 2012)

Blizzaks only have their specific winter compound on the top 50 or so percent as it is softer and would not lend itself well to a deep tread which is also helpful to create a multi-purpose winter tired. I don't think that makes it any less quality, just different design trade offs. Having used Blizzaks and a number of other winter tires over the years (X-ice, Toyo Observe, and a few models I can't remember from Bridgestone, Michelin, and General). With the exception of deep new snow, the Blizzaks had noticeably better traction in winter conditions than the other tires. They were the third winter set on one particularly difficult to drive in winter rear wheel drive as well as an SUV that was the all use family vehicle often taken into the snow belt. For the other vehicles over the years, I preferred other qualities offered by its competitors including better dry performance and longer tread life.

I have in very specific conditions lowered my tire pressure to get my car off a side street that had deep snow, but for the most part, never adjusted above recommended as odds are I would not switch back quick enough and end up wrecking the tires


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## MichaelW (Oct 28, 2012)

Blizzaks are 100% winter tires. The LM series don't utilize the tube multicell feature, because Bridgestone says it can not reach H & V speed ratings.
For example the Dunlop Graspic DS-3 tires are only winter tires for the top 55% of tread depth, and all-season for the rest.
Michelin made a bid deal about well worn winter tire functionality with their new X-ice xi3 tire.
and you know winter tires are getting good when Michelin offer a tread wear guarantee.


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## okenobi (Nov 10, 2012)

Just wondering if you chaps over the pond get/have heard of Nokian?

They are a Finnish tyre manufacturer and have a great reputation in Europe. I've just bought four of their "performance" winters for my Skoda and so far in just the damp, cold UK they've been fantastic. But I'm driving to Italy for the winter and can't wait to really test them. They're my first set of winters and it's only my second ski season. I'll be living right on the border between France and Italy and whilst I could ski between the two, it takes 2.5hrs and is A LOT of lifts! So I suspect the car will be making the 40 minute road trip reasonably regularly throughout the season!


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## RBR (Nov 11, 2012)

.....


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## okenobi (Nov 11, 2012)

RBR said:


> I would though recommend to check if snow chains might be compulsory in these regions you plan to go to at winter conditions. _Edith : Often on defined roads, marked by a traffic sign looking like this._ http://www.avd.de/fileadmin/user_uploads/Recht-und-Wissen/Verkehrszeichen-268_222px.png
> 
> It´s sometimes duty to have these chains on your wheels in the Alps, otherwise you might face a nice ticket what can become an expensive amusement, especially in Italy and France.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I'm aware of the signs. Was there last year. Problem is my car won't allow chains due to clearance issues. So I'm gonna buy socks and hope that I can get away with it with the local police. Socks are legal in France, but nowhere else yet. Problem is, if I physically can't fit chains, what am I supposed to do?!

Looking forward to seeing the tyres perform in the conditions they're intended for though...


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## SemiMan (Nov 24, 2012)

okenobi said:


> Just wondering if you chaps over the pond get/have heard of Nokian?
> 
> They are a Finnish tyre manufacturer and have a great reputation in Europe. I've just bought four of their "performance" winters for my Skoda and so far in just the damp, cold UK they've been fantastic. But I'm driving to Italy for the winter and can't wait to really test them. They're my first set of winters and it's only my second ski season. I'll be living right on the border between France and Italy and whilst I could ski between the two, it takes 2.5hrs and is A LOT of lifts! So I suspect the car will be making the 40 minute road trip reasonably regularly throughout the season!



Nokians have been in North America for as long as I can remember. They do not have much of a following or distribution here though. They have just really never taken off. It used to be that some of the European car dealerships would offer them in winter packages but I don't even see that very much. They are available and have a small following, but never have really taken off. They tend to be on the expensive side compared to other winter tires. 

One issue with the Nokian's at least in the past, i.e. <2010, is they have been more a snow tire than a snow and ice tire. Most of the populated parts of North America that have to deal with winter conditions are more concerned with icy conditions than with pure snow. Yes we have areas that get cold and stay cold all winter, but we have large populations that flirt with the freezing point for a significant portion of winter. Perhaps Nokian needs better marketing to the right areas?

Semiman


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## smokinbasser (Nov 24, 2012)

I have had 4WD exclusively since the 70s and most had all terrain treads.


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## jamesmtl514 (Nov 25, 2012)

My driveway, about 4.5 feet of snow in some places. My FWD TL-S on dedicated winters sometimes had trouble getting out. 




Here dedicated winter tires are a must (legally and responsibly)


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## Navman (Nov 25, 2012)

Too slipery to walk, what say we go for a drive?

No amount of traction tires can protect us from those that have no clue lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xrJuigh2aCc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iawEugjFqTg


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## chmsam (Nov 26, 2012)

As I posted before we here in upstate NY see Nokians often enough. Of course there are a fair number of road rallyists among my friends and we run in winter as much or more than we do in summer. Been aware of Nokians since the mid-80's and I can even pronounce Hakkapeliitta correctly (it's OK just to say "hakka's").

As for playing around with tire pressures, do so very carefully and only after you have checked to see if the tires you have will cope with it. Not all tires are created equally. I have seen people lower the pressure and then had the bead pop off the rim. I have seen people leave the pressure so low that the tires wore out quickly. Doing stuff without knowing what it's all about is often not a good idea.

To repeat what's been posted before, attitude is very important. You'll go off for sure if you drive like it's warm and dry or like you've got a right to drive as fast as you want no matter what or who is on the road. Just keep the speed down, keep a farther distance between cars (both in front of and behind you), do things gently, and practice, practice, practice. Remember too that good equipment gives you an edge. One more time since it's the #1 rule in my book of winter driving -- just 'cuz you kin git a-goin' doesn't mean you can haul thing darned thing in once you want to stop or make to turn.


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## orbital (Nov 27, 2012)

^

My brother uses * Hakkapeliitta* tires for his winter wheel setup,,,absolutely swears by them. {in a good way :santa:}



________________________


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 27, 2012)

orbital said:


> ^
> 
> My brother uses * Hakkapeliitta* tires for his winter wheel setup,,,absolutely swears by them. {in a good way :santa:}
> 
> ...



in between my tech jobs after the bubble popped and 6 years ago...
I worked as a roofer for 2 years...(oh yes... I got in crazy fit shape) 
we had a huge van shod with 4 Hakkapelitta's...that van was unstoppable
in Maine winters...

by unstoppable I mean: yes it did stop on snow and ice, but _*could not get stuck*_ trying to go anywhere


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## jacques111 (Nov 28, 2012)

TEEJ said:


> LOL
> 
> OK, pics?
> 
> ...



Awesome cars tyres pics, there are also reputed brands like Ceat, MRF etc.


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