# Flashlights' exports prohibited by US federal laws?



## Tachikoma (Jul 20, 2008)

I've just received this:


> Unfortunately, at this time we are not allowed to ship this product outside of the United States due to U.S. Federal regulations. All of the following items listed below are also subject to this restriction:
> 
> 1. Night Vision Equipment and Night Vision Accessories such as: Monoculars, Binoculars, Goggles, Weapon Sights, Cameras, and Multipurpose Systems of Generation 2, 3, 4, or 5
> 2. Thermal Imaging Equipment, Heat Seekers and Weapon Mounted Accessories
> ...


 
Does this mean that I won't be able to order a Surefire UB2 from Italy anymore?
Will I be forced to buy it from Italian shops months later and at a double price?


----------



## Size15's (Jul 20, 2008)

Tachikoma said:


> Does this mean that I won't be able to order a Surefire UB2 from Italy anymore?
> Will I be forced to buy it from Italian shops months later and at a double price?


You won't find a SureFire Dealer in the USA allowed to ship SureFire products outside of the USA (due to the contract the dealer signs with SureFire).

You won't be forced to buy it from an Italian shop though. There are plenty of ways to get SureFires that likely cost less than at the Italian shop you refer to.

Some products that SureFire makes are sensitive items - such as IR lasers, IR illuminators and IR BeamFilters etc. I believe these items are restricted from export without the valid paperwork/permissions.


----------



## CM (Jul 20, 2008)

That's interesting. Where did it come from? I'd love to see the actual reference in the State or Commerce department's list that point out "tactical flashlight" as export controlled. "Tactical Flashlight" has such a broad meaning as to be totally useless. Al's right. IR, certain nightvision equipment, are covered under ITAR, but flashlights?


----------



## Tachikoma (Jul 20, 2008)

I've received it from Opticsplanet.com after a refund, they've refused to sell me a pair of Hatch gloves :shrug:


----------



## nzgunnie (Jul 20, 2008)

I think they must have the same agreement with Blackhawk about shipping their products overseas, I tried to order a holster and got the same reply.


----------



## baterija (Jul 20, 2008)

> Tactical Flashlights and other sorted accessories *for the above listed equipment. *


After finding the first restricted item on SF's sight I found 63 items with a search for "ITAR" which is the abbreviation in their export restriction notice. Everything is what I would have expected, weapons' parts, laser sights, ir capable lights, ir filters, and 2 Weaponlights listings. Since the weaponlights have the mounting points as part of the body I can see how they might be included. Most of their lights have no export restriction notice. I would think if anyone knew for sure it would be Surefire themselves.

Very strange.


----------



## BIGIRON (Jul 20, 2008)

I'm guessing a small part of it is really Federal export regs but the big part is trade protection.


----------



## Size15's (Jul 20, 2008)

Perhaps it is just a way the dealer can hide behind something official sounding rather than simply state that their dealership contract forbids them.
This may prompt some people to try to circumnavigate the dealer's contract with SureFire. 
I guess that less people would try to get the dealer to circumnavigate 'the law'


----------



## loszabo (Jul 21, 2008)

Tachikoma said:


> I've received it from Opticsplanet.com after a refund, they've refused to sell me a pair of Hatch gloves :shrug:



Correct! Former Armor Holdings (owner of the HATCH brand), now called BAE Systems Products Group, is very strict in the export of *all* products... exactly like SureFire and many other US companies.

I undestand that this sounds very stupid to a honest customer like you.

The problem is, that this "strict behaviour" is not against the private citizen wanting to buy one pair of hand glove, one holster, or one flashlight. The system was abused by companies all over the world, shipping US products into regions you don't want them to see.

For US companies it is a fight against too much political correctness on one side (why restrict gloves & holsters?), and way too much crime and corruption on the other side (someone selling body-armor to the wrong guys).

BTW: ITT paid a fortune for export violations, because night-vision devices showed up in the wrong place.


----------



## loszabo (Jul 21, 2008)

Tachikoma said:


> Will I be forced to buy it from Italian shops months later and at a double price?



You can always have someoone in the US buy this as a private citizen for himself and ship it to you. Unless it is ITAR regulated, you do not have an export violation!

In addition there is a very big Internet auction platform, which loves to violate SureFire's export rules...  But, several of my recent purchases including shipping and customs were not that cheap compared to the European distributors!!! Because something costs US$ 100, it is not EUR 100,- but only worth EUR 70,-. Our European governments are adding a lot to this as well!

In addition the delay is often, because even companies like SureFire treat European distributors as second class. Domestic (CONUS) is *always first*!

I've checked yesterday's SureFire prices at a German dealer and they are not that bad.

So, don't blame your distributor first. Wait until the product is widely available and compare prices. If you want it first in Europe, visit the US! :nana:


----------



## Niconical (Jul 21, 2008)

loszabo said:


> Domestic (CONUS) is *always first*!


 
And so it should be. 

I like getting good deals in USD, but we (EU) shouldn't feel we have a right to the same offerings and prices from a US company as a US resident does. 

It works the other way as well. 
Who would you rather be financially, A German paying for a BMW, or an American paying for a BMW?


----------



## loszabo (Jul 21, 2008)

Niconical said:


> Who would you rather be financially, A German paying for a BMW, or an American paying for a BMW?






You know, I collect a lot of US-made things. Nothing wrong about it! But,
I'm patient...
I have them shipped to a friend in the US and wait for several weeks/months to get them...
I compare a lot and I research prices...
Did, I mention that I'm patient?
My personal experience is: every time I buy something from the US on impulse, I lose money compared to wait a little bit longer.

I do not want people complaining that they are not treated like CONUS customers, because they are mail-ordering something from outside. :shakehead


----------



## Glen C (Jul 21, 2008)

Niconical said:


> And so it should be.
> Who would you rather be financially, A German paying for a BMW, or an American paying for a BMW?



Off topic, but the BMW X5 is made in the USA, so was the Z3 and so is the Z4 and I believe the X3.

So the USA gets cheap BMW's & flashlights! :laughing:


----------



## Tachikoma (Jul 21, 2008)

loszabo said:


> But, several of my recent purchases including shipping and customs were not that cheap compared to the European distributors!!! Because something costs US$ 100, it is not EUR 100,- but only worth EUR 70,-. Our European governments are adding a lot to this as well!


 
In my case it's always better to buy in US, even counting added taxes and custom fees, because Italian distributors' prices are out of this world :mecry:
For example, a Surefire M6 that costs *€251 ($399)* on SF website sells for* €520 ($826)* on a famous Italian importer's website ! :shakehead
On eBay.com you can find it shipped to Italy for *€200*, on eBay.it *€589* plus shipping


----------



## loszabo (Jul 21, 2008)

Tachikoma said:


> In my case it's always better to buy in US, even counting added taxes and custom fees, because Italian distributors' prices are out of this world :mecry:
> For example, a Surefire M6 that costs *€251 ($399)* on SF website sells for* €520 ($826)* on a famous Italian importer's website ! :shakehead
> On eBay.com you can find it shipped to Italy for *€200*, on eBay.it *€589* plus shipping



Wow, that is a lot of difference. So, don't buy there. Write an email to SureFire, if it is there policy to support such insane mark-ups... Producers are not interested in distributors marking excessively.

I know a funny story: CEO of an European distributor for some US company dealing with the army in his territory came to a presentation with one of his Ferraris. This guy marked up a profit of approx. 200% in addition to all his costs!!! He was sooo expensive, but had an unique position. The highest ranking person in charge asked him to take it easy and come with something less "posh". So, on the next day he came with a Porsche Cayenne... :laughing:


----------



## Crenshaw (Jul 21, 2008)

loszabo said:


> Wow, that is a lot of difference. So, don't buy there. Write an email to SureFire, if it is there policy to support such insane mark-ups... Producers are not interested in distributors marking excessively.
> 
> I know a funny story: CEO of an European distributor for some US company dealing with the army in his territory came to a presentation with one of his Ferraris. This guy marked up a profit of approx. 200% in addition to all his costs!!! He was sooo expensive, but had an unique position. The highest ranking person in charge asked him to take it easy and come with something less "posh". So, on the next day he came with a Porsche Cayenne... :laughing:


lol...

Surefires have markups all over the world. Here, an M6 costs almost SGD$1000 iirc. Thats why all of my surefires (after my first one) come from BST....

Crenshaw


----------



## woodrow (Jul 21, 2008)

I think I remember that the US government was worried about middle eastern countries buying Playstation II or III's to use the computer chips for their missle guidence systems some years ago.

Look on the bright side. I think Dorcy and Everedy do not have any such shipping restrictions on their lights...






Seriously though, that sucks... sorry.

Look at the bright side. Like Americans wanting Cuban cigars.... they are a little harder to come by because of the ban.... but fortunately, not hard to get.


----------



## Tachikoma (Jul 21, 2008)

And I was hoping to be able to import a gen4 NVG someday in the bright future :mecry:


----------



## loszabo (Jul 21, 2008)

Tachikoma said:


> And I was hoping to be able to import a gen4 NVG someday in the bright future :mecry:



*"Sir, please drop that AN/PVS-10 and step back. You are surrounded by US elite special forces who will make us of force, if necessary!"*


----------



## TITAN1833 (Jul 21, 2008)

woodrow said:


> Look at the bright side. Like Americans wanting Cuban cigars.... they are a little harder to come by because of the ban.... but fortunately, not hard to get.


Yeah I like American beef jerky,it's a litte hard to come by because of ristrictions..but unfortunately it's made in the UK now,but it's not the same:mecry:


----------



## santza (Jul 21, 2008)

W000T??? 

I'm going to USA for a holiday of two weeks at august. So can i buy an eotech holographic weapon sight and go home to EU without being consireded as a terrorist and seeing the 500$ sight taken away from me by a customs person ?? :thinking:

I would surely like to get a surefire M6 as well but if tactical flashlight exporting is also prohibited It falls into the same category as the weapon sight..

I wouldnt like to give away 900$ worth of equipment. Can I export these items to EU or not?


----------



## Tachikoma (Jul 21, 2008)

Wow, you make me remember about it too: I've found the Eotech 552 ( *€260* on Opticsplanet.com )selling for* €800* in Italy, that's absolutely insane :sick2:


----------



## Dr Jekell (Jul 21, 2008)

It's not as bad here as it is only US$630 for a SF M6.


----------



## sORe-EyEz (Jul 22, 2008)

Dr Jekell:wave:,

SF M6 sells for way much less in Sg.


----------



## FsTop (Jul 22, 2008)

Sounds like the mfr's will have to come with a new word to substitute for "tactical" in their descriptions for all those lights with crenelated bezels, etc.

BTW, anyone care to try to find a legal definition of a "tactical" flashlight?


----------



## Tachikoma (Jul 24, 2008)

FsTop said:


> BTW, anyone care to try to find a legal definition of a "tactical" flashlight?


 
Now that would be very useful


----------



## TITAN1833 (Jul 24, 2008)

FsTop said:


> BTW, anyone care to try to find a legal definition of a "tactical" flashlight?


Yes,


> Any flashlight that shoots flames from the emitter


----------



## blinder switch (Jul 24, 2008)

I would think that our* Allies* should be *EXEMPT* from all of this non-sense. Our friends should not be hampered, nor delayed IMO.


----------



## sORe-EyEz (Jul 24, 2008)

call a spade, a spade. i think the term 'tactical' is just another great marketing terminology. 

maybe lights with strobing tailcap switch should just be advertised as: 'strobing rear switch'

lights with crenellated strike bezel should be advertised as: 'self-defence bezel' for countries with a less than perfect grasp on english. 

a symbol (of a fist) accompanying such a product would help too...


----------

