# Microfire K3500. Any Beamshots yet?



## HIDSGT (Sep 28, 2007)

I know the K3500 is available now. Anyone acquire any beamshots yet?


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## Rubycon (Sep 30, 2007)

Available? It would be nice.

If fenix store really has them in stock I'm going to ask my purchaser to order one. I know opticshq is cheaper but he ordered one from there a month ago and it's still says backordered. At this point the extra $80 means nothing! I want the GD light!!!


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## vandraiss (Sep 30, 2007)

Optics Hq does have the K3500R in stock now. Mike at Optics Hq tells me that mine will probably ship tomorrow (10-1). I pre-ordered on 9-2.

You might send him an e-mail to see how many he will have available for sale after he fills his pre-orders like mine. He answers e-mail promptly and it might save you $80.

Good Luck


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## Rubycon (Oct 1, 2007)

Well it looks like I should have it by month's end. (I'm not the purchaser and it has to get to me - I'm on a ship)

So most likely any beam shots I take would be boring but I can see if I can get some cool ship to shore shots at a decent range. Problem is long exposure+movement=blur city.


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## mossyoak (Oct 1, 2007)

i played with one Saturday, the beam is bright and massive it can be seen at 1500 feet plus. theres not a whole lot to say.


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## pete7226 (Oct 2, 2007)

Is the output blue like the K temperature suggests? I hope not.


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## mossyoak (Oct 2, 2007)

its bluish.


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## grubi (Oct 7, 2007)

I received my new Warrior on Friday (ordered it the day is was announced), and tested it thoroughly through the weekend. I have written a Review of the K3500R on DeepClue. Since I am german the review is written in german, but I added many pictures and beamshots which might be interesting for you to look at.

Besides being a flashaholic, I started the DeepClue review site in germany myself as a new business, so if you are german and appreciate the review, I politely ask you to leave a comment (or even write your own "clue" if you have a K3500).

Thomas


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## Tempora (Oct 7, 2007)

Very nice review.
Concerning the photo, is the beam completely focused?


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## grubi (Oct 7, 2007)

Yes, the beam is completely focused - but the difference between focused and wide beam is not so big.


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## jrv (Oct 8, 2007)

How quickly does it startup aand reach 50%, then 100% brightness?


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## PapikAldo (Oct 8, 2007)

Really can't wait to see more beamshots of the K3500R...
I'm really considering to add one to my collection...
Need to see beamshots against other HIDs and at many distances...
Thanks


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## grubi (Oct 8, 2007)

jrv said:


> How quickly does it startup aand reach 50%, then 100% brightness?



It starts up very quick. After turning on, it delivers almost instantly a lot of light (more than 50% I assume), then after about 20-30 seconds has reached full brightness.


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## sharkeeper (Oct 9, 2007)

Hey guys just got mine today. Got the UV filter and it's sick. What's sickening is how revealing it is around the kitchen. I have a dog that "leaks" and I can see the pee stains. 

The colour doesn't look bad at all. Perhaps the 7000 rating is on a seasoned lamp with a few hundred hours? Startup is the usual flash from ignition like my auto's lamps. Then it warms up and gets quite insane. I remember the excitement back in 1990 when I bought my first magcharger. This definitely dusts it. Good stuff.

I'll make a video using my 14' movie screen as a background comparing it to other lights. I don't have anything in its class to compare it to unfortunately. I have a an original P1DCE and the new Q5 P1DCE. The Q5 on high with a fresh cell looks like a match next to the sun. ROFL

I'll figure out what to compare and then shoot some video and upload it.

Cheers!


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## ampdude (Oct 10, 2007)

I've been very interested in the new line, but if they are still going to use the 6000-7000K lamps I will have to pass. At least until there is an upgrade option for a 4000-4200K lamp.


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## Border (Oct 10, 2007)

Here's an idea... 

It would be nice to see beamshots of the K3500 compared to some average automobile headlights (H3/H4/etc).


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## scott.cr (Oct 10, 2007)

grubi said:


> so if you are german and appreciate the review, I politely ask you to leave a comment (or even write your own "clue" if you have a K3500).



That IS a nice review. I couldn't find a way to link to the translated site, but to get the English version just put the URL into the Altavista translator here: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr


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## sharkeeper (Oct 12, 2007)

Here's a quick (and dark!) video I made of it turning on, warming up and the glow of the arc tube capsule after shutdown. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuY_4iXj3qU

Cheers!


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## Border (Oct 13, 2007)

Thanks for the excellent video clip, sharkeeper.

I like the hotspot - it sure looks like it can throw. Anything you do not like about this light so far? Contruction? Charger?

From what I have seen so far, I definitely want one of those.


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## sharkeeper (Oct 13, 2007)

Border said:


> Thanks for the excellent video clip, sharkeeper.
> 
> I like the hotspot - it sure looks like it can throw. Anything you do not like about this light so far? Contruction? Charger?
> 
> From what I have seen so far, I definitely want one of those.



I do like this light. It's not perfect (is there such a thing?) but my grief(s) are rather short and quite minor.

The noise you hear (my comments about the unhappy goose!) when the head is screwed in or out to adjust focus! This is a tactical product and should not do that. Nitpicking? Of course it is but I just mention it upon noticing. 

The charger uses a coaxial connector (similar to most things around the home like network switches, routers, etc.) and the fit is quite loose so it falls out of the charger quite easily. Easily enough that I may put the plug part in a vice to deform it slightly so it's tighter. Again, no big deal.

Other than those two things, the light is great!

It gets warm and I plan to discuss/show this in detail in future video in more controlled (studio) conditions, however it does not present any more of a burning hazard than my higher powered LED's! Thermal management design is very good on this product. 

Fit and finish are very good. I do like the small red LED on the business end of the battery pack. It reminds you that the switch is ON (required to charge) and prevents you from accidentally getting a facefull of lumens when changing battery packs! Sounds funny at first but outside in the field such an incident could prove disastrous to dark adopted eyes.

I plan on making more videos of this (and other) goodies so stay tuned. 

Cheers!


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## Patriot (Oct 14, 2007)

sharkeeper said:


> Here's a quick (and dark!) video I made of it turning on, warming up and the glow of the arc tube capsule after shutdown.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuY_4iXj3qU
> 
> Cheers!


 
hmmm....wow! That beam is much nicer that I would have guessed. I really quite impressed with the beam shape and color tempurature. It looks even better that my AE24/s. Thanks for the video.


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## Border (Oct 14, 2007)

sharkeeper said:


> The noise you hear (my comments about the unhappy goose!) when the head is screwed in or out to adjust focus! This is a tactical product and should not do that. Nitpicking? Of course it is but I just mention it upon noticing.
> 
> The charger uses a coaxial connector (similar to most things around the home like network switches, routers, etc.) and the fit is quite loose so it falls out of the charger quite easily. Easily enough that I may put the plug part in a vice to deform it slightly so it's tighter. Again, no big deal.



Thanks again for your input. Much appreciated!

I can live with the occasional sound of unhappy geese :laughing: - although I fully agree that this is not a particularly tactical feature.

The loose charger fit worries me a bit. Charging the battery at home should not be a problem, but how about car mounted chargers...?


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## ampdude (Oct 14, 2007)

LoL! So it squeaks loudly when you focus it.

Ya, that's great feature on an expensive tactical light. Hahahahaaha :laughing:


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## Patriot (Oct 15, 2007)

ampdude said:


> LoL! So it squeaks loudly when you focus it.
> 
> Ya, that's great feature on an expensive tactical light. Hahahahaaha :laughing:


 

Maybe just needs a smear of lithium grease..........? Not sure but it doesn't sound too critical  Also it's kinda funny that we're using the term, "tactical" with and HID light. Sorry, but HIDs can not be employed tactically since tactical operations require that the light be quickly turned on to instantly illuminate an area and then be quickly shut off at other times.


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## vandraiss (Oct 15, 2007)

sharkeeper said:


> I do like this light. It's not perfect (is there such a thing?) but my grief(s) are rather short and quite minor.
> 
> The noise you hear (my comments about the unhappy goose!) when the head is screwed in or out to adjust focus! This is a tactical product and should not do that. Nitpicking? Of course it is but I just mention it upon noticing.
> 
> ...


I have a K3500R too. I appreciate your comments and video showing how it performs for you. They are the only posts I have seen so far to compare my observations with. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

Regarding the "Goose" sound I put a drop of light oil on the threads and after a few twists in and out the "Goose" went away. Secondly my charger connection is tight. I can pick up the charger by the cord and shake it and it stays connected. So I guess I don't know why yours is loose.

Although I have not taken any beam shot pictures yet I can tell you this. At 50 yards if I shine my SureFire 10X dominator at a house in my neighborhood and then shine the K3500R on the same place the beam from the 10X completely disappears. There is no comparison. The K3500R's beam is both larger and much brighter. Strangely I thought the 10X had a white beam. If I shine the 2 side by side the 10X now looks orange and the K3500R looks white. I live in a well lit neighborhood and if I shine the K3500R towards the end of the street (1/4 mile) it lights up both the stop signs and the parked car taillights on the next block for about another 1/4 mile. Note that these are very reflective surfaces so I don't really see the cars. But the beam did get that far.

Thanks again for your posts.


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## Border (Oct 15, 2007)

vandraiss, it would be awesome to see some beamshot of the K3500R compared to the 10X...


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## vandraiss (Oct 15, 2007)

Border said:


> vandraiss, it would be awesome to see some beamshot of the K3500R compared to the 10X...


I'll see what I can do. I need to find a large surface like the side of a building to shine both beams side by side at a reasonable distance like 50 yards or so.


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## sharkeeper (Oct 15, 2007)

vandraiss said:


> I have a K3500R too. I appreciate your comments and video showing how it performs for you. They are the only posts I have seen so far to compare my observations with. Thanks for taking the time to do it.
> 
> Regarding the "Goose" sound I put a drop of light oil on the threads and after a few twists in and out the "Goose" went away. Secondly my charger connection is tight. I can pick up the charger by the cord and shake it and it stays connected. So I guess I don't know why yours is loose.
> 
> ...



If you think the focusing goose is bad you should take off the reflector once! Yikes!

I'll have to lube it up. My charger is probably just one of those things. It is rather annoying. I've got a DC adapter on the way so I'll see how that fits the base. 

I just got done blowing out a REALLY dusty PC with a high speed blower. It was dark so I brought along the 3500. Normally I would use my Novatac but what the heck! There was a huge cloud combined with a loud hissing noise. It looked like I was arc welding and caught something on fire. 

After a quick run for maybe 5 or 6 mins putting the battery back on the charger still yields a green light. The start threshold is probably lower (perhaps 80%) for optimal cell life? In either case I ordered another pack so I can keep one on charge at all times.

I was actually considering the Fox Fury now that the 'Hound has 'em on sale for $799. What I really like about a rechargeable light is you can just leave it on and not worry about battery drain. I remember when I got my L4 and chewed through 50 123's in no time flat. The Fox Fury would be much worse! 

Cheers!

p.s. the comment regarding momentary tac use...

Well the quick flash is intimidating. Yes after a full warm up run I turned it off then immediately back on. It restrikes immediately. This is not the best thing for the bulb and even the ballast but if you needed to signal with this light you could. If I was in a life threatening situation you can bet I would signal with it. (I'd use it as a physical weapon too!)


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## vandraiss (Oct 20, 2007)

I have beam shots comparing the SureFire 10X and the K3500R. They are in JPEG format but I can't get them to appear in a post here. How do you add pictures to a post? Copy/Paste from my photo files to the post isn't working for me. The little "pictrure" icon that appears at the top of the post reply box never gives me a Paste option. It stays "Grayed out".

Thanks for any help.


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## Patriot (Oct 20, 2007)

vandraiss said:


> I have beam shots comparing the SureFire 10X and the K3500R. They are in JPEG format but I can't get them to appear in a post here. How do you add pictures to a post? Copy/Paste from my photo files to the post isn't working for me. The little "pictrure" icon that appears at the top of the post reply box never gives me a Paste option. It stays "Grayed out".
> 
> Thanks for any help.


 
Try clicking on the little post card button with the mountains on it, just left of the quote box. It will ask you for the URL of the image. I upload my photos to Photobucket.com and insert images through there.


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## Patriot (Oct 20, 2007)

mossyoak said:


> i played with one Saturday, the beam is bright and massive it can be seen at 1500 feet plus. theres not a whole lot to say.


 
mossyoak, is there anything that you objected to about the light? Is is something that you would puchase yourself?


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## vandraiss (Oct 20, 2007)

The following are pictures comparing the Surefire 10X and the Microfire K3500R. They were taken at a distance of 45 yards with a Sony Cybershot DSC T10 camera set to auto. The camera was handheld so excuse the camera shake. The K3500R is a lot brighter.


SureFire Dominator 10X







Microfire Warrior K3500R


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## Border (Oct 21, 2007)

vandraiss, I knew that the 10x is very bright for its size.

Now I'm convinced that the K3500R is *extremely *bright.

Thanks for the beamshots! I hope nobody was at home over there...


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## vandraiss (Oct 21, 2007)

Border, let me reply by saying that I took the pictures after midnight so the neighbors were sleeping. For some reason (no doubt operator error) the 2 pictures were displayed as photos right on the post when I previewed before posting. When I hit the post button the pictures became "links" you have to click to see. I don't know what I did wrong in the posting process. I haven't tried to post pictures here before. I have had a Streamlight Ultra Stinger for some time and thought it was bright. When I compared it to the 10X I was blown away. The 10X seems at least 10 times brighter (both a much bigger beam and much brighter). The K3500R is at least 5 times brighter than the 10X and weighs 28 ounces compared to the 10X's 20 ounces. The 10X is 9.5 inches long and the K3500R is 10 inches long. The sizes are similiar. The 10X runs 18 minutes and the K3500R runs about an hour. HID versus Incandescent bulbs make a huge difference in power required to run. In another comparsion I have a Thor 10M candlepower spotlight (11 pounds) and compared it to the K3500R. The Thor had a brighter but smaller hot spot while the K3500R lit up twice the area but didn't shine quite as far. For a light you can easily carry and even put in your pocket without it falling out I haven't seen anything that compares with the K3500R.


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## mossyoak (Oct 23, 2007)

Patriot36 said:


> mossyoak, is there anything that you objected to about the light? Is is something that you would puchase yourself?



no, i like it alot, its a tad big but thats ok. its bright enough to not matter. 
im rather new to HID and i dont care for the 30 seconds til full brightness but thats just how they all are. if i ever need a really bright light its on my short list of ones to check out. id definately buy it from fenix-store to, cause i know if i had any issues they'd take care of me. yeah, that was a shameless plug for the chowster. sue me.


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## Patriot (Oct 23, 2007)

oh...haha! Cool. I wasn't sure if you had been unimpressed with it. Yeah, it looks like a very nice HID for the money. I'm using my AE24/S almost every night while walking. I really like it but it's a sizeable unit! The 3500 is substantially smaller with more flood. It might suit me even better but I'm trying to get all the opinions that I can about it first. Thanks brother.


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## mossyoak (Oct 24, 2007)

get one you wont be sorry.


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## fire-stick (Oct 25, 2007)

sharkeeper said:


> Yes after a full warm up run I turned it off then immediately back on. It restrikes immediately.**This is not the best thing for the bulb and even the ballast**



What's the best way to use an HID to maxamize bulb and ballast life?


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## john2551 (Oct 25, 2007)

fire-stick said:


> What's the best way to use an HID to maxamize bulb and ballast life?


 
The best way to extend bulb & ballast life is to turn it on & use it for an extended perior of time;ie, 15, 30, 45+ minutes then turn it off.
If you turn it on & off many times in a 15 minute time span you will greatly shorten the life of the components.


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## fire-stick (Oct 26, 2007)

If you run an HID for 5-10 minutes then turn it off then back on again will that hurt it or should you wait fot it to cool before restarting it?

Is there a website I can read about how to properly use/properly maintain an HID light?

Maybe HID isn't for me....?


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## Patriot (Oct 26, 2007)

fire-stick said:


> If you run an HID for 5-10 minutes then turn it off then back on again will that hurt it or should you wait fot it to cool before restarting it?
> 
> Is there a website I can read about how to properly use/properly maintain an HID light?
> 
> Maybe HID isn't for me....?


 
To be practical about this, Today's HIDs don't seem to be overly sensitive as long as you not trying to operate it like a tactical light or something. The general rule of thumb is if you turn it on, let it heat up all the way...at least 30-45 seconds. Turning a HID off and then immediately back isn't usually known to cause a problem because the bulb is already hot. That said, the more cycles that you put on any bulb, and ballast could potentially reduce the maximum lifespan of the components.


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## ampdude (Oct 29, 2007)

vandraiss said:


> Border, let me reply by saying that I took the pictures after midnight so the neighbors were sleeping. For some reason (no doubt operator error) the 2 pictures were displayed as photos right on the post when I previewed before posting. When I hit the post button the pictures became "links" you have to click to see. I don't know what I did wrong in the posting process. I haven't tried to post pictures here before. I have had a Streamlight Ultra Stinger for some time and thought it was bright. When I compared it to the 10X I was blown away. The 10X seems at least 10 times brighter (both a much bigger beam and much brighter). The K3500R is at least 5 times brighter than the 10X and weighs 28 ounces compared to the 10X's 20 ounces. The 10X is 9.5 inches long and the K3500R is 10 inches long. The sizes are similiar. The 10X runs 18 minutes and the K3500R runs about an hour. HID versus Incandescent bulbs make a huge difference in power required to run. In another comparsion I have a Thor 10M candlepower spotlight (11 pounds) and compared it to the K3500R. The Thor had a brighter but smaller hot spot while the K3500R lit up twice the area but didn't shine quite as far. For a light you can easily carry and even put in your pocket without it falling out I haven't seen anything that compares with the K3500R.



That is quite impressive, but I just can't get over the puke blue color of the 6000K bulbs. Anyone have any idea why they continue to stick with these bulbs?


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## ampdude (Oct 29, 2007)

john2551 said:


> The best way to extend bulb & ballast life is to turn it on & use it for an extended perior of time;ie, 15, 30, 45+ minutes then turn it off.
> If you turn it on & off many times in a 15 minute time span you will greatly shorten the life of the coponents.



The same thing can be said about incans. Which are usually rated at a shorter lifespan than HID's in flashlights and auto lamps. This is especially true with tactical xenon-halogen lamps like Sure-Fire makes. I abuse Sure-Fire P90's at work all night with lithium ion batteries and turn them off and on hundreds of times a night but haven't burned any out yet and I've been doing this for a long time. Most of them are previously used as well.


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## Patriot (Oct 30, 2007)

mossyoak said:


> get one you wont be sorry.


 
I did it! It will be here on Thursday. Waiting for lights in the mail is hard huh. :shrug:


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## mossyoak (Oct 30, 2007)

its the worst.


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## Patriot (Oct 31, 2007)

mossyoak said:


> its the worst.


 
After I ordered the light yesterday with overnight mail, I received an email today saying that the light was back-ordered...:thinking: It didn't say it was back-ordered when I clicked "buy." Gotta love that. Oh well.


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## brightnorm (Nov 1, 2007)

ampdude said:


> That is quite impressive, but I just can't get over the puke blue color of the 6000K bulbs. Anyone have any idea why they continue to stick with these bulbs?


Why indeed. This is an excellent question and highlights an important issue.

I recently bought a 24W Boxer (1800 lumens) and was impressed with its solid but relatively small and light weight body, its adjustable beam and impressive output for its size. 

However, its distinctly blueish 6000K beam was a disappointment, having all the disadvantages of similar-color LED beams: poor color rendition and lack of contrast compared to a good incandescent beam.

Although I am tempted by the Microfire, especially in view of its relatively low price, its blue 7000K beam may be a deal-breaker for me.

Superior HID lights like the Polarion have much lower color temperature (around 4200K), are outstandingly bright (see Kenshiro's tests in the HID section) and avoid all the visual disadvantages of the higher Kelvin lights.

Ampdude's question deserves an answer by 4Sevens or anyone knowledgeable in this field. Is it simply a matter of cost; are higher color temperature HIDs much cheaper than lower Kelvin ones?

If the MF 3500 had a color temperature below 5000K or even slightly higher I would buy it immediately, and I'm sure others feel this way.

I may forward this post to 4Sevens in the hope that he may have an answer. If so, I'll post it here.

Brightnorm


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## john2551 (Nov 1, 2007)

Patriot36 said:


> After I ordered the light yesterday with overnight mail, I received an email today saying that the light was back-ordered...:thinking: It didn't say it was back-ordered when I clicked "buy." Gotta love that. Oh well.


 
What vendor did you place the order with?


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## Patriot (Nov 1, 2007)

john2551 said:


> What vendor did you place the order with?


 
fenix store. The goofy part was the automated back-ordered email. I would have preferred a phone call or personalized email stating when the item would be back in stock. When I canceled my order this morning I was promptly refunded without hassle with a personalized email...which I appreciated.


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## Mark2 (Nov 7, 2007)

Does anyone's K3500 flicker as well? It's as if the arc would move around in the bulb just a little bit, causing the direction of the beam to change slightly. Sometimes it's stable for 30 seconds, then it flickers again. The position of the light doesn't seem to change anything.


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## ampdude (Nov 7, 2007)

brightnorm said:


> Why indeed. This is an excellent question and highlights an important issue.
> 
> I recently bought a 24W Boxer (1800 lumens) and was impressed with its solid but relatively small and light weight body, its adjustable beam and impressive output for its size.
> 
> ...




The only thing I can think is that they must be cheaper, since they usually come in the more mass produced HID's and the vendors are always very silent on the subject.

It's a shame because the 4000-4200K bulbs in comparison have much better illumination ability and are more efficient.


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## brightnorm (Nov 8, 2007)

_"...and the vendors are always very silent on the subject..."_

I've noticed that too. Really quite frustrating.

BN


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## Patriot (Nov 8, 2007)

Mark2 said:


> Does anyone's K3500 flicker as well? It's as if the arc would move around in the bulb just a little bit, causing the direction of the beam to change slightly. Sometimes it's stable for 30 seconds, then it flickers again. The position of the light doesn't seem to change anything.


 
I don't have my 3500 yet Mark, but that doesn't sound right to me. It's ok if the color shifts now and then...say, you point the light straight up and the level it again, that's normal. Flickering is not normal and beam shifting is not normal. I've seen video of the 3500 and it never flickered. It sounds like a voltage issue to me, not unlike what occurs when the battery in a HID is depleted. I hope you get it figured out though..sorry to here that.


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## vandraiss (Nov 9, 2007)

Mark2 said:


> Does anyone's K3500 flicker as well? It's as if the arc would move around in the bulb just a little bit, causing the direction of the beam to change slightly. Sometimes it's stable for 30 seconds, then it flickers again. The position of the light doesn't seem to change anything.


Regarding "flicker", I have a K3500R and posted a couple beam shots of it compared to my SureFire 10X. The documentation that comes with the light says you may notice some flicker if you use the light indoors like pointing to the ceiling. But the documentation says you should not see flicker at all when the light is used outside. My light does not flicker at all, inside or outside. The beam is steady and brilliant. If you see flickering outside I suggest contacting the store you bought it from. I don't post often but I thought I would reply to your concern because you seem to be getting replys from people who don't even have a K3500R. I'm sure they are trying to be helpful but you need observations from other K3500R owners to know if you have a problem or not. Unfortunately there just aren't many of us yet.


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## Imothep (Nov 11, 2007)

Wow, thats a real impressing flashlight. This forum really helped me very much in deciding which one to buy.
I searched a long time for a cheaper alternative to the Lupine Betty, because i want to use it for mountainbiking. With an external battery pack the Microfire will kick ***! :twothumbs


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## brightnorm (Nov 11, 2007)

After all my fulminating against 6000-7000k "Blueboys" I disregarded my own better judgment and ordered a 3500 from FenixStore. If there is a lower K bulb availble I will try to find it.

Brightnorm


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## Patriot (Nov 12, 2007)

brightnorm said:


> After all my fulminating against 6000-7000k "Blueboys" I disregarded my own better judgment and ordered a 3500 from FenixStore. If there is a lower K bulb availble I will try to find it.
> 
> Brightnorm


 
Do they finally have them back in stock?


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## brightnorm (Nov 12, 2007)

I didn't see any indication one way or the other and assumed they were in stock. Sure hope I wasn't wrong.

BN


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## ampdude (Nov 12, 2007)

brightnorm said:


> After all my fulminating against 6000-7000k "Blueboys" I disregarded my own better judgment and ordered a 3500 from FenixStore. If there is a lower K bulb availble I will try to find it.
> 
> Brightnorm



That's why they keep putting them out.  

I'll still personally never buy a bluebulb, but let us know what you think.


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## brightnorm (Nov 12, 2007)

I ordered the 3500 on 11/10; it was supposed to ship on 11/15. Just got an email from Fenixstore dated today at 5:12pm 

_"Your order has been updated to the following status. New status: Shipped"_

_Brightnorm


_


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