# LiIon 18650 battery comparison



## HKJ

[SIZE=+3]LiIon 18650 battery comparison[/SIZE]

I have made a new battery test: 18650 battery test 2011, it is also on cpf
A 2012 test can be found here

The name 18650 means that the battery has a diameter of 18mm and is 65mm long, but when a protection circuit is added the battery will be a few mm longer. How much longer will depend on the actual protection circuit and how it is mounted. 










These graphs show the size of the batteries. The length is from top of battery to bottom of battery, measured on the most protruding parts. With the diameter I have tried finding the largest diameter (The batteries are not completly circular).
Some of the batteries are flat top, what this means is explained here: Battery, button or flat top

For more information about how a protected battery is build see The Anatomy of a Protected Battery.






This graph shows the measured capacity for each battery with different loads. One thing to note is that many manufactures overstates their capacity.
Note: I have used multiple batteries from each manufacturer and multiple chargers, i.e. the different runs for the same type battery might not be directly comparable (As in same battery and exactly same charge condition).
Note: TrustFire TR2400 (gray) is *very* variable in capacity.

On the graph, the black trace is 0.3A, red is 1A and green is 3A discharge current.



[SIZE=+2]AW 2200 (Black)[/SIZE]

















This battery has protection.
Size: diameter: 18.4mm, length: 67.4mm
The minus pole has a metal protection.
Source: AW, Sep 2009


[SIZE=+2]AW 2600 (Black)[/SIZE]

















This battery has protection.
This battery is a flat top battery and will only work in equipment with a raised plus pole. Two batteries placed in series will connect (Not all flat tops will do this).
Size: diameter: 18.6mm, length: 67.7mm
The minus pole has a metal protection.
Source: AW, Nov 2009



[SIZE=+2]AW IMR1600 (Red)[/SIZE]

















This battery uses IMR (LiMn) chemistry and does not have or need a protection circuit.
Size: diameter: 18.3mm, length: 65mm
The minus pole has a metal protection.
Source: AW, 2009

[SIZE=+2]SolarForce 2400 (White)[/SIZE]

























This battery has protection.
Size: diameter: 18.7mm (Mostly 18.4, but it has a bump), length: 68.3mm
Source: SBFL, Feb 2010


[SIZE=+2]Soshine 2800 (Black)[/SIZE]

























This battery has protection.
Size: diameter: 18.4mm, length: 68.8mm
The minus pole is the copper on the protection pcb.
Source: DX:28678, Jan 2010



[SIZE=+2]Tenergy 2600 (Cyan)[/SIZE]

























This battery has protection.
This battery is a flat top battery and will only work in equipment with a raised plus pole. 
Size: diameter: 18.4mm, length: 66.7mm
The minus pole is the copper on the protection pcb.
Source: BJ, Jan 2010



[SIZE=+2]TrustFire TF2400 (black/red)[/SIZE]

























This battery has protection.
Size: diameter: 18.3mm, length: 68mm
The minus pole is the copper on the protection pcb.
Source: DX:20392, Jan 2010



[SIZE=+2]TrustFire TR2400 (Gray)[/SIZE]

























This battery is either one of the good or one of the worst batteries, depending on how lucky you are. The blue trace is a 1 amp trace of a bad battery.

This battery has protection.
Size: diameter: 18.5mm, length: 67.6mm
Source: DX:5776, Jan 2010



[SIZE=+2]TrustFire TR2500 (Blue)[/SIZE]





















This battery has protection.
Size: diameter: 18.6mm, length: 68.9mm
The minus pole has a metal protection.
Source: DX:5790, Dec 2009



[SIZE=+2]UltraFire BRC3000 (gray/red)[/SIZE]

























This battery has protection.
Size: diameter: 18.6mm, length: 68.0mm
The minus pole is the copper on the protection pcb.
Source: DX:21474, mar 2010



[SIZE=+2]UltraFire LC2400 (Gray)[/SIZE]

























This battery has protection.
Size: diameter: 18.5mm, length: 68.9mm
The minus pole is the copper on the protection pcb.
Source: DX:19624, Jan 2010



[SIZE=+2]UltraFire XSL2600 (Red)[/SIZE]

























This battery has protection.
Size: diameter: 18.6mm, length: 69.1mm
The minus pole is the copper on the protection pcb.
Source: DX:28677, Dec 2009



[SIZE=+2]UniqueFire LC2400 (Blue)[/SIZE]

























This battery has protection.
Size: diameter: 18.5mm, length: 68.8mm
The minus pole has a metal protection.
Source: DX:29031, Dec 2009



[SIZE=+2]Xtar 2200 (Blue/green)[/SIZE]

























Note: These batteries are named 18700, not 18650.
This battery has protection.
Size: diameter: 18.5mm, length: 69.5mm
The minus pole has a metal protection.
Source: Xtar, Dec 2009

[SIZE=+3]Notes[/SIZE]
Source:
DX: Dealextreme
BJ: BatteryJunction
AW: AW on cpf
SBFL: SBFlashlights


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## Black Rose

Nice work HKJ :thumbsup:


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## SilverFox

Hello HKJ,

Excellent work.

It looks like the UltraFire XSL2600 cells reach their "nominal" voltage under a 0.3 amp load where the AW 2600 cells are able to handle a 1 amp load and maintain "nominal" voltage.

It looks like all the cells are struggling at loads a little over 1C, however with the IMR1600 cells the load was closer to 2C and they look pretty good.

Tom


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## scot

Thankyou, very interesting!!:twothumbs


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## Anders

Very nice of you HKJ 

Its good to have both dimensions and capacity in the same thread.

Thanks//Anders


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## old4570

:thumbsup: Good job .


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## turboBB

Awesome post HKJ and timely too as I'm on the hunt for some new 18650's.

Might you be doing one on 123-sized batteries in the future?

Cheers!,
Tim


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## HKJ

turboBB said:


> Might you be doing one on 123-sized batteries in the future?



I have not decided that yet. But I will be extending this test here with some more 18650 batteries.


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## Tohuwabohu

Thanks for yor work HKJ.

DX sells two different versions of the UltraFire XSL 2600mAh batteries.
I'm quite sure you tested the cheaper and longer version (sku.28677).
sku.26247 is shorter, has a higher capacity and a higher voltage under load.
I posted results for both versions here in the German Messerforum.net. (Ultrafire 2600mAh = sku.26247, UF 2600mAh lang = sku.28677).


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## Conte

Uniquefire ? Lol.

That's quite the oxymoron, no ?


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## HKJ

Tohuwabohu said:


> Thanks for yor work HKJ.
> 
> DX sells two different versions of the UltraFire XSL 2600mAh batteries.
> I'm quite sure you tested the cheaper and longer version (sku.28677).
> sku.26247 is shorter, has a higher capacity and a higher voltage under load.
> I posted results for both versions here in the German Messerforum.net. (Ultrafire 2600mAh = sku.26247, UF 2600mAh lang = sku.28677).



Interesting, two different batteries with exactly the same wrapping but different specifications.
As you "guessed" it is sku 28678 that I have tested.


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## guiri

Anyone know anything about these?
http://www.batteryjunction.com/ultrafire-brc-18650.html

George


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## bandersnatch

I'd be interested in seeing what you find for DX SKU 20392; I've got a couple that seem to do pretty well but am not sure how they compare.


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## HKJ

guiri said:


> Anyone know anything about these?
> http://www.batteryjunction.com/ultrafire-brc-18650.html



I am going to test the DX model of the same type, if DX decides to ship it (I ordered it last year).



bandersnatch said:


> I'd be interested in seeing what you find for DX SKU 20392; I've got a couple that seem to do pretty well but am not sure how they compare.



I also have this battery on my list to test.


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## The Dane

Not to steal the thread but i tested some of the DX ones here:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/235472


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## Lightcrazycanuck

Black Rose said:


> Nice work HKJ :thumbsup:


 

+1:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## rebelbayou

Hello Flashlight gurus,

Sorry if I'm off topic a little here, but a quick question. I am having trouble grasping the concept of these 18650's, but I have extracted some out of a laptop battery pack and 1 of these is a red Sony(I think.) It is showing 3.88 volts and since I don't have a charger yet, is it possible to try this battery out in one of many flashlights that I have? I know the voltage is supposed to be between 3.6 and 4.2. As always, I respect the opinion and advice of CPF members and was wondering your thoughts on this. Thank you for your time and feedback.


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## HKJ

The Dane said:


> Not to steal the thread but i tested some of the DX ones here:
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/235472



I can see that you also uses the CBA analyzer, it is going to be interesting to compare your measurements with mine and see what batteries has changed capacity. 

Looks like the only one we have in common as of now is the TrustFire TR2500 (blue), where you get close to 2400 mAh and I get 2150 mAh (at 1 A).


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## Lightcrazycanuck

Interesting,very Interesting.


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## SilverFox

Hello Rebelbayou,

There should be no problems putting a cell into a light and trying it out. Just don't run it for any length of time or the cell will become over discharged.

A problem may be that the cell, since it is not fully charged, may not have enough capacity left to power your application. 

Tom


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## rebelbayou

Thanks Tom,

I'll stick it in a 2C mag with a spacer and see what happens. Hopefully my charger will be here in a couple of days. I ordered an Ultrafire WF-139. I hope thats the right one. Also, is there any reason that I should save the pcb boards or protection circuits from the end of the laptop battery packs? I won't ever do anything with them but if someone needs them, they can have them. Have a good day!


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## The Dane

rebelbayou said:


> Thanks Tom,
> 
> I'll stick it in a 2C mag with a spacer and see what happens. Hopefully my charger will be here in a couple of days. I ordered an Ultrafire WF-139. I hope thats the right one. Also, is there any reason that I should save the pcb boards or protection circuits from the end of the laptop battery packs? I won't ever do anything with them but if someone needs them, they can have them. Have a good day!



The Trustfire TR-001 is better!

My $0.02


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## rebelbayou

Thanks for your .02 The Dane. I somehow overlooked that one while I was looking at chargers. I think I will go ahead and order it too, seeing as it's only $8. I assume it has an overcharge protection on it? But from what I've read, I still don't think I will leave them charging without being there to monitor them every few minutes. 

Can someone point me in the right direction to find out what 18650 cell and spacers to use in a 2C mag? Or is it possible to run 2 18650s' in a 2C? Thanks for taking the time and having the patience to deal with all these newb questions! I know it gets old...


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## alfreddajero

Thanks for doing the tests on the most used cells that we have or plan on getting.


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## HKJ

Added Soshine 2800 and UltraFire LC2400 batteries. I have also added where and when I got the batteries.


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## etc

Great. Can you test Panasonic 2900 mAh 18650 cells? Not protected. That's all I have used lately. I noticed they have more capacity than AW cells.


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## HKJ

etc said:


> Great. Can you test Panasonic 2900 mAh 18650 cells? Not protected. That's all I have used lately. I noticed they have more capacity than AW cells.



I can not answer that before I know where to get them and how expensive they are. Note: I am in Europe.


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## guiri

Somebody sponsor this man with some batteries. He IS doing us a lot of good.

I'm in for ten bucks for the battery fund. Who's with me? Paypal it to him or to me and I'll send it to him or whatever. I'm in as I'm too damn stupid to do these things myself, I'm happy as hell when someone does stuff like this.

Some of the dealers chime in please with lower prices for testing purposes or a couple of samples. Hey, I took the first step. PM me your paypal and ten bucks are on the way for the testing fund 

George


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## HKJ

guiri said:


> Somebody sponsor this man with some batteries. He IS doing us a lot of good.



I would like getting some sponsoring, but I do not really need it. What I need is help with getting the interesting batteries (Like the Panasonic), i.e. where to buy them, without paying high shipping fees.

I have more batteries on order that will be added to the test when I get them.


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## python

Nice work HKJ !!!


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## guiri

Well, same thing. Someone that knows the dealers ask them. Just a few of the batteries per dealer, no big deal and we can pay for shipping or something. Yall benefit more from this than I and I'm the one offering.

Let's do some extensive test and then put them up on that flashlight list that i talked about a few months ago. Something like this. I think if we can get this thing going, we could have a hellish list to really simplify things. You want to show someone a light or reply to questions or you want to sell it, just show them the list and they'll have pictures and all the data of them.
http://www.editgrid.com/user/guiri/Flashlights_Test_1

George


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## LuxLuthor

Excellent work here, HKJ. Thanks for the time this took, and excellent documentation. Here was my old thread testing some others which you may not have seen, as it focusses on safe chemistries.


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## Dioni

Great comparison tests! :twothumbs


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## Raymond3

guiri said:


> Anyone know anything about these?
> http://www.batteryjunction.com/ultrafire-brc-18650.html
> 
> George


 
I also would like to ask if anyone has tested these Ultrafire 3000 maH units? 

I have used them for about three months. The length and width is substantially larger than the AWs and they do not fit in a Moddo bored 6p (to wide) or in an Xtar C2 SSC-P7 (to long). They do fit in and are working great in a Solarforce L2 and three EagleTac C2X4s though. 

Test results would be appreciated if anyone could provide them.


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## guiri

So what? THey make'em bigger to put more capacity in them and label them 18650's?

What kind of bull is that? I wonder how many lights they do NOT fit or you think that they'll fit most lights?

George


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## HKJ

Added Tenergy 2600 batteries. They have good capacity and are very short for protected batteries.


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## how2

Hi HJK

If you had to purchase 1 set of batteries would it be the Tenergy?


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## Conan

HKJ said:


> Added Tenergy 2600 batteries. They have good capacity and are very short for protected batteries.



Wow their performance is surprising, wasn't it just recently that Tenergy Li-Ions didn't perform too well?


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## HKJ

how2 said:


> Hi HJK
> 
> If you had to purchase 1 set of batteries would it be the Tenergy?



I have mostly been buying AW, but next time I am getting something from BJ I will buy a few more Tenergy. But note that they are flat tops and might not always work in series (I have an old set that does not, but the new set here does).



Conan said:


> Wow their performance is surprising, wasn't it just recently that Tenergy Li-Ions didn't perform too well?



I was surprised with the performance. I have not seen any other measurement of them, but as can be seen in this thread, batteries with same label does not always perform the same. That is the reason I have added supplier information and date for all the batteries.


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## Lightcrazycanuck

Keep up the good work HKJ. We CPF brothers need to be kept informed.



lovecpf


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## IXHIHXI

*ok, this very well may be the dumbest question any of you have ever heard but i'm a total newbie so please bear with me...these 18650 batteries do they come fully charged? i purchased 2 with a charger combo but they damn charger doesnt work the indicator lights dont light up or anything so i was curious as to whether these batteries are already fully charged....*


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## alfreddajero

No they dont.....


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## 45/70

IXHIHXI said:


> *ok, this very well may be the dumbest question any of you have ever heard but i'm a total newbie so please bear with me...these 18650 batteries do they come fully charged? i purchased 2 with a charger combo but they damn charger doesnt work the indicator lights dont light up or anything so i was curious as to whether these batteries are already fully charged....*



Welcome to CPF, IXHIHXI! :thumbsup:

Do you have a way of measuring the voltage of the cells? A DMM, or other meter which can be used to measure Li-Ion cell voltage, is pretty much a requirement when getting into Li-Ion cells. Without one, you're pretty much in the dark, which is not a good place to be when you're a CPF member. :naughty:

Seriously, you should have a good meter when using Li-Ion cells. It allows you to know a lot more about the cells, such as what state of charge their in, how much degradation of the cell has taken place over time, and probably most importantly, helps to prevent charging accidents  , which can be dangerous. You really need to have a meter.

Li-Ion cells usually come about 40% charged. This prevents them from discharging to an undesirable level during storage and shipping, and is not high enough to cause damaging oxidation inside the cell. A 40% charge is actually the recommended state of charge for Li-Ion cells that are not in use for longer periods.

I'll add one more thing that you're already aware of, and I'm sure you don't want to hear it, but it doesn't really pay to get a cheapo charger either. 

Dave


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## guiri

Well shoot. Finally a question even I can answer and yall beat me to it.

As for the chargers, yes, the cheapo chargers suck total doo doo.


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## Corvette6769

Great work HKJ. I am surprised that you did not include the BLACK TrustFire Protected 18650 True 2400mAh Lithium Batteries DX sku 20392 in these results.

6 months ago, I did extensive research on 18650 batteries. I read every CPF thread on the subject, compared and analyzed all of the various load-test results and came to the conclusion that the best bang for your buck were the TrustFire cells from DealExtreme.

Since the top three were not all tested by any one reviewer, I bought two of each from DX to do my own testing and they are the following:

$9.99 TrustFire Protected 18650 3.7V True 2400mAh Rechargeable Lithium Batteries (2-Pack) - DX sku 20392
$8.18 TrustFire Protected 18650 Lithium Battery (2500mAh 2-Pack Blue) - DX sku 5790
$8.01 TrustFire Protected 18650 Lithium Battery (2400mAh 2-Pack Gray) - DX sku 5776

I tested each of the two cells twice with my Maha MH-C777PLUS-II Universal LCD Charger - Analyzer - Conditioner at 300mA discharge rate with the following results:

Black TrustFire (DX sku 20392) - Average *2838* mAh (100 mAh deviation from best to worst)
Blue TrustFire (DX sku 5790) - Average *2144* mAh (79 mAh deviation from best to worst)
Gray TrustFire (DX sku 5776) - Average *2255* mAh (419 mAh deviation from best to worst)

My conclusion was that the Gray (DX sku 5776) was very inconsistent and the Black (DX sku 20392) is by far the best performing cell, averaging *2838 mAh*.

I would be interested to see your test results for the Black TrustFire (DX sku 20392).


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## HKJ

Corvette6769 said:


> I would be interested to see your test results for the Black TrustFire (DX sku 20392).



I have tested the black and am working on the gray. They will be included next time I update.


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## HKJ

HKJ said:


> I have tested the black and am working on the gray. They will be included next time I update.



Added these two TrustFire batteries and SolarForce 2400.


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## Corvette6769

HKJ said:


> Added these two TrustFire batteries and SolarForce 2400.


I see your results are similar to mine, including the inconsistency of the TrustFire TR2400 (Gray) DX sku 5776.

At $5.00 each including shipping, the TrustFire TF2400 (black/red) DX sku 20392 are hard to beat.

The AW 2200 (Black) at $14.75 each + shipping and Tenergy 2600 (Cyan) at $7.95 each + shipping seem to be the only challengers, but certainly are cost prohibitive.

BTW, your TrustFire TF2400 (black/red) graph image is not showing up because its link is missing the image file name.


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## HKJ

Corvette6769 said:


> I see your results are similar to mine, including the inconsistency of the TrustFire TR2400 (Gray) DX sku 5776.



Definitely a lot inconsistency between cells. 



Corvette6769 said:


> At $5.00 each including shipping, the TrustFire TF2400 (black/red) DX sku 20392 are hard to beat.
> 
> The AW 2200 (Black) at $14.75 each + shipping and Tenergy 2600 (Cyan) at $7.95 each + shipping seem to be the only challengers, but certainly are cost prohibitive.



My test is missing reliability of the cells (It is difficult and expensive to test), but this is supposed to be good on the more expensive cells.



Corvette6769 said:


> BTW, your TrustFire TF2400 (black/red) graph image is not showing up because its link is missing the image file name.



Thanks, I have fixed it.


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## Conan

HKJ said:


> Added these two TrustFire batteries and SolarForce 2400.



Thanks for that info! :thumbsup: Solarforce 2400 is what I'm currently using.


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## Corvette6769

HKJ said:


> My test is missing reliability of the cells (It is difficult and expensive to test), but this is supposed to be good on the more expensive cells.


Unlike CR123 cells, I do not remember seeing any reports any 18650 cells going bad in service. At a third of the cost, having a spare TrustFire TF2400 (black/red) DX sku 20392 is easily justifiable.


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## Cemoi

Corvette6769 said:


> Tenergy 2600 (Cyan) at $7.95 each + shipping



Where do you get these?


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## HKJ

Corvette6769 said:


> Unlike CR123 cells, I do not remember seeing any reports any 18650 cells going bad in service. At a third of the cost, having a spare TrustFire TF2400 (black/red) DX sku 20392 is easily justifiable.



These types of cells are also used in laptop batteries and I think everybody has heard about problems with laptop batteries, both packs that's die early and recalled packs.
But to get most power for you $, the cheap batteries wins.


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## Corvette6769

Corvette6769 said:


> Tenergy 2600 (Cyan) at $7.95 EACH + shipping





Cemoi said:


> Where do you get these?


As HKJ wrote in the first post in this thread "Source: BJ, Jan 2010 and BJ: BatteryJunction"

For me until something better comes along, its nothing but the black/red $9.99 TrustFire Protected 18650 3.7V True 2400mAh Rechargeable Lithium Batteries (*2-Pack*) - DX sku 20392.


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## mfm

Is the Soshine 18650 really 68.8mm long? Because I have the Soshine 18650 box and neither the blue TrustFire 2500 mAh nor the black/red TrustFire 2400 mAh (68mm long) fit in it.


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## HKJ

mfm said:


> Is the Soshine 18650 really 68.8mm long? Because I have the Soshine 18650 box and neither the blue TrustFire 2500 mAh nor the black/red TrustFire 2400 mAh (68mm long) fit in it.



That is the length of the two I have, measured with a digital calliper.


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## aurum

Thanks for that info ....lovecpf

Which 18650 battery would you recommend?  BLACK TrustFire Protected 18650 True 2400mAh Lithium Batteries DX sku 20392 ?

thx


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## Corvette6769

aurum said:


> Thanks for that info ....lovecpf
> 
> Which 18650 battery would you recommend? BLACK TrustFire Protected 18650 True 2400mAh Lithium Batteries DX sku 20392 ?
> 
> thx


YES. At $9.78 for two, until something better comes along, I am using nothing but the black/red $9.78 TrustFire Protected 18650 3.7V True 2400mAh Rechargeable Lithium Batteries (*2-Pack*) - DX sku 20392.


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## VidPro

just need one more graph, TIME. which ones are still usable more than 4 years from now, and after 50 cycles.
myself i have almost completely given up on the capacity HYPE, and am down to seeking ones that even exist a few years later. sorta like the enloop vrses the high-caps. all the work the money the testing and 3 years later it all is in the freaking trash :-( hey what is that? the best battery . . . Of yesterday


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## Flucero28

Great info, thank you very much. I know this is already pretty demanding, however there is another test that I feel would benefit us tremendously. I think it would be nice to see which battery has the slowest self discharge rate, as there are times where my lights sit for a while with no use. Just throwing it out there! Lol. Great job and thanks again!


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## HKJ

VidPro said:


> just need one more graph, TIME. which ones are still usable more than 4 years from now, and after 50 cycles.



A XX cycle test is rather easy to do (I have a hobby charger), but I do not know if I really wish to do it. It might take a few months (Depending on charge/discharge rate and number of cycles) for all batteries, with the charger running nearly all the time.



Flucero28 said:


> I think it would be nice to see which battery has the slowest self discharge rate, as there are times where my lights sit for a while with no use.



This kind of test take a rater long time with LiIon batteries, because a working cell will keep power for years. Also remember that the temperature will have some influence on the discharge rate.


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## mfm

HKJ said:


> That is the length of the two I have, measured with a digital calliper.



Did you get a plastic box with the cells? I measured my Soshine 18650 box with a digital caliper now and its around 67.5-67.8 mm long inside so your cells wouldn't fit. The box looks like the one in the picture of the SKU you listed.


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## HKJ

mfm said:


> Did you get a plastic box with the cells? I measured my Soshine 18650 box with a digital caliper now and its around 67.5-67.8 mm long inside so your cells wouldn't fit. The box looks like the one in the picture of the SKU you listed.



I have a plastic box marked Soshine and when I measure it the length somewhere between is 68.2 and 68.5. The batteries are a bit longer than the box.


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## HKJ

I have added the UltraFire BRC 3000 batteries (it took 3 months to get them).

It was no surprise that they are nowhere near 3000mAh, but there was another thing that was surprising, they have the same capacity with 1A and 3A load.


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## Corvette6769

HKJ said:


> I have added the UltraFire BRC 3000 batteries (it took 3 months to get them).
> 
> It was no surprise that they are nowhere near 3000mAh, but there was another thing that was surprising, they have the same capacity with 1A and 3A load.


 
Your results mirror those of others here for the $14.40 UltraFire Protected 18650 3.7V 3000mAh Lithium Batteries (2-Pack) DX sku 21474.

Taking 3 months to get them and at 47% higher cost than the black/red $9.78 TrustFire Protected 18650 3.7V True 2400mAh Rechargeable Lithium Batteries (*2-Pack*) - DX sku 20392 confirms my opinion that the "3000 mAh" are a waste of money.

Thank you for your time and money investment in these tests.


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## aurum

Good work so far ... :goodjob:



> they have the same capacity with 1A and 3A load.



I think this is because a low internal resistance of the battery's ...


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## Superorb

Thanks for these reviews, I was going to order some Trustfire Blue 2500mah protected cells, but I'll spend an extra ~$2 for the better black/red cells.


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## Armadillo

I ordered those black/red trustfire 18605s from Deal Extreme back in February and still don't have them yet. They are telling me to wait another two weeks and then they will see about sending a new package....Lame.


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## Superorb

Armadillo said:


> I ordered those black/red trustfire 18605s from Deal Extreme back in February and still don't have them yet. They are telling me to wait another two weeks and then they will see about sending a new package....Lame.


Weird... I ordered the same ones on April 15th, they claim it was shipped on the 16th, but tracking number says the HK Post hasn't even received the package. I ordered 4 more cells on the 22nd and they claim to have shipped on the 24th (today). I've already emailed them and they say that Fedex and UPS work differently. They obviously don't understand that I was trying to say that the HK post office hasn't received it yet and what was taking them so long to get it to the friggin post office. I hope I won't have to wait that long. I've been receiving things from them about 15-20 days after I've ordered them the past few months though.


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## sdnative

Beautifull work !!

Organized test and good post layout ... detailed and concise !!

Keep it up


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## uncle wong

New 18650 Battery Found Here 

http://cgi.ebay.com.my/18650-2600mAh-Protected-Li-ion-Battery-3-7V-/220546119074?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335992b5a2

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/266764

Any Tester ?


----------



## Corvette6769

uncle wong said:


> New 18650 Battery Found Here
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com.my/18650-2600mA...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335992b5a2
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/266764
> 
> Any Tester ?


 
At only 8% *claimed* mAh capacity improvement and 20% higher cost ($11.62 delivered for 2) than the black/red $9.68 TrustFire Protected 18650 3.7V True 2400mAh Rechargeable Lithium Batteries (*2-Pack*) - DX sku 20392 I am skeptical.

However with that said, I purchased 2 more pair of the sku 20392 black/red Trustfire this month and in my initial tests, while they arrived quickly and did meet their 2500 mAh advertised capacity, they did not perform as well as the original two I received last August.


----------



## Black Rose

Corvette6769 said:


> However with that said, I purchased 2 more pair of the sku 20392 black/red Trustfire this month and in my initial tests, while they arrived quickly and did meet their 2500 mAh advertised capacity, they did not perform as well as the original two I received last August.


That's one thing I was wondering about.

I have a pair of those that I bought about a year ago that have been great and wanted to get some more, but wondered if the latest batch would be as good as the original ones I bought.

What exactly is it with the new ones that makes you say they are not performing as well as the older ones?


----------



## Corvette6769

Black Rose said:


> That's one thing I was wondering about.
> 
> I have a pair of those that I bought about a year ago that have been great and wanted to get some more, but wondered if the latest batch would be as good as the original ones I bought.
> 
> What exactly is it with the new ones that makes you say they are not performing as well as the older ones?


The two I received in August 2009 averaged 2838 mAh when tested (2732 when tested again 6-12-10) and the four I received June 2010 only averaged 2579 mAh.


----------



## Superorb

Corvette6769 said:


> The two I received in August 2009 averaged 2838 mAh when tested (2732 when tested again 6-12-10) and the four I received June 2010 only averaged 2579 mAh.


...which is still a departure from the less than advertised mantra of DX.


----------



## Corvette6769

Please view my post (#128) in thread http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?p=2511801#post2511801 .

While I am no expert on the workings of the regulation circuitry, it would seem to me that any two batteries that supply the same 3.5 voltage under a 3.0 amp load over the same time duration would be able to supply more than enough power and current to drive a LED at 2.5 Amps (and presumably netting identical light output).

So why would there be any difference in light output from any properly regulated flashlight?


----------



## Corvette6769

*Here are some missing posts I received via email notification. *

*There may be other posts, but these are all of the notifications I received between 11-1-10 and 3-12-11. *

*Unfortunately, none of my posts are here because the forum does not send copies of posts to the poster via email notification, so unless others here can fill in, my posts are lost forever. *

*I assumed this forum had backups of its backups (as all professional forums do), I never kept copies of my posts. *

========================================================
Wednesday, December 08, 2010 4:27 PM CST
sebilla posted:
***************
Hello. After much reading I have still some doubts, and I am writing to know if anyone can help me.

Which of these two batteries are better for UltraFire WF-016 SSC-P7 3-Mode 800-Lumen flashlight in Hi mode?
TrustFire TF2400 (black / red) $9.57
VS
UltraFire BRC3000 (gray / red) $13.75

Which of these flashlight is best to put on a bicycle?
UltraFire WF-016 SSC-P7 3-Mode 800-Lumen (1*18650) $31.62
VS
TrustFire P7-F15 SSC P7-WC 3-Mode 900-Lumen (1*18650) $33.02

Thanks and I hope your help...
***************
========================================================
Thursday, December 09, 2010 4:06 AM CST
cummins4x4 posted:
***************
Great thread. Holy crap never realized how many different battries with the same designation there are and how much the performance differs. Very enlighteningoo:
***************
========================================================
Thursday, December 09, 2010 10:23 AM CST
HKJ posted:
***************
---Quote (Originally by cummins4x4)---
Great thread. Holy crap never realized how many different battries with the same designation there are and how much the performance differs. Very enlighteningoo:
---End Quote---
Thanks. As you can see from the test, not all batteries has the stated capacity and there are big differences between how they handle a high load.
I am working on an update, it will include RediLast, the higher capacity AW batteries and some other (Suggestions welcome, use PM).
***************
========================================================
Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:20 PM CST
pae77 posted:
***************
"The black/red $9.57 TrustFire Protected 18650 3.7V True 2400mAh Rechargeable Lithium Batteries (*2-Pack*) - DX sku 20392 (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20392) is far superior."
+1 I've had great luck with those and I think they are an outstanding value.
I just got my second pair of those batteries six months after I started using the first pair and I'm pleased to report that the quality is still excellent, at least with the 2nd pair I recently received from DX. And the first pair is still working just as well as they did on day one and they each get used a lot and topped off every other day.
***************
========================================================
Friday, December 10, 2010 6:25 AM CST
hazna posted:
***************
---Quote (Originally by Corvette6769)---
I have eight of these in service now and the latest pair of sku.20392 I received October 24, 2010 averaged 2854 mAh when tested.
---End Quote---
Is that 2854mah charge capacity or discharge capacity? Some how I find it hard to believe they would under rate their product so much...
***************
========================================================
Friday, December 10, 2010 10:11 AM CST
HKJ posted:
***************
The current batch of 20392 does have a very good capacity, here is a preliminary chart from my new test:
Image: http://lygte-info.dk/pic/batteries2010/Capacity-0.2A.png 
***************
========================================================
Friday, December 10, 2010 9:58 PM CST
LetThereBeLite posted:
***************
---Quote (Originally by Corvette6769)---
I tested each of the two cells twice with my *Maha MH-C777PLUS-II Universal LCD Charger* - Analyzer - Conditioner at 300mA discharge rate.
---End Quote---

Is that Maha charger considered a "hobby charger"?
***************
========================================================
Saturday, December 11, 2010 1:31 AM CST
HKJ posted:
***************
---Quote (Originally by Corvette6769)---
I tested each of the two cells twice with my Maha MH-C777PLUS-II Universal LCD Charger - Analyzer - Conditioner at 300mA discharge rate. 

The first test was after charged with UltraFire WF-139 only and the second test was after charged with UltraFire WF-139 and then topped off with Maha MH-C777PLUS-II Universal LCD Charger before the discharge test.
---End Quote---
That is a hobby charger, I also tried doing some runs on a hobby charger (iCharger) and got higher capacity than expected.
The WF139 probably fills more current into the batteries than the hobby charger. WF139 charges until 4.2 volt and zero current, a typical hobby charger can be adjusted for 4.1 or 4.2 volt and stops charging when the current is 10% of selected charge current.
***************
========================================================
Tuesday, December 28, 2010 5:23 PM CST
HKJ posted:
***************
There are two answers to that, depending on the number of batteries in the light:
1) Flashlight with one LiIon cell: The internal resistance of the meter and resistance of the measuring probes is limiting the current. Even small differences in battery voltage will have large impact on the actual tailcap current.
2) Flashlight with two or more LiIon cells: The light is using a buck converter that is reducing voltage and increasing current. I.e. the meter might read 2 ampere, but the buck converter is supplying 3.5 ampere to the led at a lower voltage. In my reviews of lights I usual measure the current draw at different voltages, to show this.
Below is an example from a light with constant light output (green curve), i.e. the led is supplied with constant current, independent of battery voltage (red curve). At 12 volt it draws 1 ampere, raising to about 3 ampere at 4 volt and all the time driving the led at 3 ampere:
Image: http://www.lygte-info.dk/pic/ThruNite/CatapultV2XML/CurrentLux.png 
***************
========================================================
Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:38 PM CST
Superorb posted:
***************
I've noticed this too. The dropin is supposed to be driven at 1.5A on high and I'm only getting readings of 1.2A tops at the tail.
***************
========================================================
Wednesday, December 29, 2010 7:13 AM CST
HKJ posted:
***************
---Quote (Originally by Corvette6769)---
My interest is in single cell 18650 applications. Perhaps someone who has a collection of 18650 cells from various manufacturers will do a shootout test using a flashlight with a known driver board supplying 2,800 mA to a MC-E M bin, or 3,000 mA to a XM-L T6 and record the resulting tail-cap amps (and run-times).
---End Quote---

What you have to look at is the voltage curve for the 3 ampere current drain, the battery that keep the highest voltage will drive the light at the highest current (With direct drive lights). In my new 18650 LiIon test I will collect curves for all batteries at the same current in one chart, making it much easier to select the battery with highest voltage, but I can say that IMR, Redilast 2600 and RediLast 2900 are some very good batteries for high drain applications.
***************
========================================================
Wednesday, January 05, 2011 5:57 PM
LetThereBeLite posted:
***************
---Quote (Originally by pae77)---
"The black/red $9.57 TrustFire Protected 18650 3.7V True 2400mAh Rechargeable Lithium Batteries (*2-Pack*) - DX sku 20392 (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20392) is far superior."
+1 I've had great luck with those and I think they are an outstanding value.
I just got my second pair of those batteries six months after I started using the first pair and I'm pleased to report that the quality is still excellent, at least with the 2nd pair I recently received from DX. And the first pair is still working just as well as they did on day one and they *each get used a lot and topped off every other day*.
---End Quote---

Hi. I have been wondering about this as I now have two 14500 TF cells for my JetBeam Jet-1 Pro. Should I frequently top them off or should I be using the battery until it's down to about 3.6v before fully charging it again? (This question really applies equally to my li-on laptop battery. Should I be constantly topping that off every day or should I be fully discharging the battery before each full recharge?) Thanks.
***************
========================================================
Wednesday, January 05, 2011 7:30 PM CST
45/70 posted:
***************
---Quote (Originally by LetThereBeLite)---
Should I frequently top them off or should I be using the battery until it's down to about 3.6v before fully charging it again?
---End Quote---
Hi Let. All chemistries of Li-Ion cells prefer to be shallow discharged, as opposed to deeper discharging. The cells will last considerably longer if they are not heavily discharged each cycle.
Now, with your laptop, this is true also, however there is a problem with devices that have a built in "battery gauge". In order for the software to keep track of the battery's capacity, it is necessary to discharge the battery down until the laptop tells you it's time to recharge the battery once in a while. This isn't necessary to do every cycle, and it seems to depend a lot on the particular laptop, or device, as to how often discharging is needed.
Dave
***************
========================================================
Saturday, January 15, 2011 8:18 PM CST
LetThereBeLite posted:
***************
---Quote (Originally by HKJ)---
Correct.
*
Yes, but it inflates the values at low current drain (like 200-300 mA). If the precision had been better it would have been a very good battery analyser*, because it does not need a computer connection during discharge (It stores the data internally), I can later connection it to a computer and get all the curves.
---End Quote---

How about 500ma or 1000ma? Is it more precise? I am doing a 500ma discharge on a Thunder AC6 hobby charger from 4.2V to 3.0V for the TrustFire 14500 900mah (flame) cell. It hasn't finished yet but it's already discharged 723 mah and it's at 3.25V. It seems like it's not going to be accurate. 
***************
========================================================
Sunday, January 16, 2011 12:42 AM CST
Rocketvapor posted:
***************
HKJ, Wow, nice set of graphs and a useful comparison. 
I've been building a few 3P3S packs from BRC18650 cells and have noticed a variance in cell resistance and capacity. No "bad" cells, just a variance that would create a "weak link" in my packs. I can load test them with a 2 ohm load and cull out the ones with the highest voltage drop (they get used in my e-cigarette mods ) and proceed with removing the protection boards and testing with a 1 ohm load. I seem to be able to get 9 "good" ones from a dozen. I just don't have the time to test them for total capacity. That would havve saved me the trouble of taking a pack apart to swap cells when a "run" test with a 35 watt HID lamp and ballast ran fine up to about 71 minutes and one of the 3 cell parallel groups fell to minimum rapidly. The rebuild pack ran a continuous 100 minutes. This application starts off at about 3.5 amps but increases as the pack voltages decreases to a little over 4.5 amps. Capacity variations within a pack show up at the end of the run. 
I would like to point out to others a couple of good points about your graphs. Mid capacity voltage at application current draw (in my case between the 1 amp and 3 amps curves). Mid point voltage and slope through that point tell the most for an application like mine. If a cell gives about 2200mah, what is the 1 amp and 3 amp voltage at the 1100mah point. Total capacity is nice to brag about but operating a multi-cell pack into the "discharge knee" might be asking for trouble. I think a sharp discharge knee in a stacked cell, unmonitored application might be a little risky. 
I'm using a laptop pack control board for shutdown and monitoring each group of cells with one of those cheap 1S-6S LED meters. One weak cell in the 9 cell pack weakens the entire pack. 
and again, great job with the data collecting.
***************
========================================================


----------



## Corvette6769

Hopefully someone out there has RSS of the missing pages & posts (as of 2-25-11, there were 110 posts on 4 pages, so at least 34 posts are missing from this thread including the 15 I posted above from email notifications)​


----------



## g.p.

I got a bunch of the red/black Trustfires from DX. Of the 10 that I received only one will power my XML P60 drop-ins on high mode without cutting out. All of the others cut out after a second or two. I'm guessing that the protection circuit is set too low. Anybody else having this issue? Any fixes other than removing the protection circuit?


----------



## HKJ

g.p. said:


> I got a bunch of the red/black Trustfires from DX. Of the 10 that I received only one will power my XML P60 drop-ins on high mode without cutting out. All of the others cut out after a second or two. I'm guessing that the protection circuit is set too low. Anybody else having this issue? Any fixes other than removing the protection circuit?


 
Strange. I did test them at 5 ampere in my new 18650 LiIon test and they could handle that, but they where some of the worst at that load.


----------



## g.p.

It is strange. I have some ridiculouly cheap red/black fake Trustfires from Ebay that power the same lights on high. Also just got some AW's, which also power the lights just fine. 

These Trustfires were delivered while we had an extreme cold snap (-35c), and did spend a few hours in the mail box. Could freezing have destroyed them?


----------



## Corvette6769

g.p. said:


> It is strange. I have some ridiculouly cheap red/black fake Trustfires from Ebay that power the same lights on high. Also just got some AW's, which also power the lights just fine.
> 
> These Trustfires were delivered while we had an extreme cold snap (-35c), and did spend a few hours in the mail box. Could freezing have destroyed them?



I would not think freezing would bother them. Keep in mind that the super cheap fake red/black Trustfires from eBay are NOT protected cells.


----------



## g.p.

Corvette6769 said:


> Keep in mind that the super cheap fake red/black Trustfires from eBay are NOT protected cells.


I would have sworn that they were protected....but I think you are right! I have some other cheap grey/black Trustfire Ebay cells, which ARE protected (had a wrapper come off, so I can vouch for them). They power all of my lights fine too.

Guess it's just cheaper in the long run to stick with the known cells.


----------



## BLAZING912

I JUST PURCHASED THE O-LIGHT M21 WARRIOR AND IM TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS THE BEST BATTERY TO USE WITH IT..IM SO CONFUSED WITH THE MAH... I SEEN A COUPLE OFL LI-ION 18650 BATTERIES SOME WITH FLATTOPS AND OTHERS WITH THE NOTCH ON TOP...CAN I USE ANY OF THESE WITH THE FLASHLIGHT?? AND CAN I USE A HIGHER MAH ?? I SEEN SOME GO UP TO LIKE 2900..I NEED THE MOST POWER AND I NEED IT TO LAST REALLY LONG BECAUSE OF MY LINE OF WORK...LAW ENFORCEMENT. THANKS

EMAIL ME [email protected] IF POSSIBLE PLEASE


----------



## Corvette6769

BLAZING912 said:


> I JUST PURCHASED THE O-LIGHT M21 WARRIOR AND IM TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS THE BEST BATTERY TO USE WITH IT..IM SO CONFUSED WITH THE MAH... I SEEN A COUPLE OFL LI-ION 18650 BATTERIES SOME WITH FLATTOPS AND OTHERS WITH THE NOTCH ON TOP...CAN I USE ANY OF THESE WITH THE FLASHLIGHT?? AND CAN I USE A HIGHER MAH ?? I SEEN SOME GO UP TO LIKE 2900..I NEED THE MOST POWER AND I NEED IT TO LAST REALLY LONG BECAUSE OF MY LINE OF WORK...LAW ENFORCEMENT. THANKS
> 
> EMAIL ME [email protected] IF POSSIBLE PLEASE


 

Look Here: http://tinyurl.com/3k54one


----------



## Thenewguy222

The XSL with SKU 28677 are FAKES! :ironic:



> - Product print '2600mAh', the exact capacity is 1800mAh



The original one you can find here:

sku 26247

Please write this in your "review". The genuine XSL are good cells, but if you buy fakes, it is no wonder if they are bad. :shakehead


----------



## Corvette6769

Thenewguy222 said:


> The XSL with SKU 28677 are FAKES! :ironic:
> 
> 
> 
> The original one you can find here:
> 
> sku 26247
> 
> Please write this in your "review". The genuine XSL are good cells, but if you buy fakes, it is no wonder if they are bad. :shakehead



Who on earth would make counterfeit batteries that only retail for $5.30 each including shipping through DX sku 26247 ?

Where are these counterfeit batteries being sold?


----------



## Battery Guy

Corvette6769 said:


> Who on earth would make counterfeit batteries that only retail for $5.30 each including shipping through DX sku 26247 ?
> 
> Where are these counterfeit batteries being sold?



I don't think that anyone actually builds a plant to make counterfeit 18650s. Most counterfeits are either scrap cells that failed QC, or "recycled" cells harvested from laptop packs. They get bought for pennies and have a nice looking, brand-name label shrink wrapped on them. Considering the tiny investment, I would guess that the counterfeiters actually turn a tidy profit.


----------



## tengc82

Just bought protected AW 18650s with 2900mah a few days ago. Don't have any equipment to test this batt. Has anyone tested this batt?


----------



## HKJ

tengc82 said:


> Just bought protected AW 18650s with 2900mah a few days ago. Don't have any equipment to test this batt. Has anyone tested this batt?



If you follow the link at the top of the first post, you will find a roundup that includes the AW 2900mAh cell.


----------



## tengc82

HKJ said:


> If you follow the link at the top of the first post, you will find a roundup that includes the AW 2900mAh cell.



Thanks for the reply. Sorry, I didn't notice it the 1st time I read this thread. Great work!! Very useful info.


----------



## ggroyal1117

Thanks for the battery info. I have most of the Fenix flashlights that use the 18650 batteries. Most of my Surefire flashlights have been retired.


----------



## nosobrite

I purchased online a Tenergy charger that came with 2 Tenergy 18650 button tops. However, I accidentally ordered 2 more Tenergy 18650 flat tops 18650 (both are identical 3.7 2600 mAh). I plan on putting one button top In my EDC. I wanted to put the other button top and the 2 flat tops in my Thrunite TN31. Do you think this will be ok since they are all the size and brand of battery.


----------



## HKJ

nosobrite said:


> I purchased online a Tenergy charger that came with 2 Tenergy 18650 button tops. However, I accidentally ordered 2 more Tenergy 18650 flat tops 18650 (both are identical 3.7 2600 mAh). I plan on putting one button top In my EDC. I wanted to put the other button top and the 2 flat tops in my Thrunite TN31. Do you think this will be ok since they are all the size and brand of battery.



As long as all batteries are protected, you will be ok.


----------



## Rachel-Seth

Excellent info here, thank you for posting it.

i have just purchased some protected Ultrafire 18650 batteries, the charger that came with my cree lights looks really cheap and nasty.

I know everyone is saying the Pila is a good charger.

I have to say that Im scared to use the 18650's 


----------



## HKJ

Rachel-Seth said:


> Excellent info here, thank you for posting it.
> 
> i have just purchased some protected Ultrafire 18650 batteries, the charger that came with my cree lights looks really cheap and nasty.
> 
> I know everyone is saying the Pila is a good charger.
> 
> I have to say that Im scared to use the 18650's 



You do not have the best starting point with UltraFire batteries and a cheap charger.
Take a look at Xtar chargers and some 3100mAh or 3400mAh batteries based on Panasonic cells (Xtar has them, as does many other). Then you dont have to be scared.


----------



## dazed1

Hi guys, sorry to bump this a bit old thread but i need to know this, since reading graphs are not really easy to understand for me.

I got 4x NCRB 1650B Panasonic 3400 mah green in my TK 75 2900lm. At what point, lets say 50% charge, do i start to lose output? is it at once after 10 mins turn runtime lets say? or its happening only when you get to like 25% charge left?


----------



## RepProdigious

This has more to do with the light than the actual cells (given they are half decent and can provide the current the light needs to regulate). If memory serves me right these kind of fenix light have very very decent flat regulation, so you should keep your output all the way till the light switches down to a lower level by itself due to low voltage... by some quick back-of-napkin math that should happen after abouts 100-110 minutes on turbo given fully charged cells.


----------



## dazed1

RepProdigious said:


> This has more to do with the light than the actual cells (given they are half decent and can provide the current the light needs to regulate). If memory serves me right these kind of fenix light have very very decent flat regulation, so you should keep your output all the way till the light switches down to a lower level by itself due to low voltage... by some quick back-of-napkin math that should happen after abouts 100-110 minutes on turbo given fully charged cells.




Thanks!

I'm using NCRB 18650B Panasonic green,

http://fasttechcdn.com/products/114/1141104/1141104-3.jpg
and 3100 mah Panasonic protected.

http://fasttechcdn.com/products/131/1315402/1315402-2.jpg

So in short - in theory, i can get peak output to lets say <20% charge generally without losing any output (or lets say just a tiny bit) with my TK 75 2900 lm right? and 50% charge should be not problem at all with quality cells?

Image tags deleted from hot linked images - Norm


----------



## ven

I am sure you wont be able to get turbo,so only high once cells are lower,not sure what time that happens as never tested,capolini maybe able to answer that .iirc he gets well over an hour as uses turbo permanently by resetting after 20mins(2600lm) and the 2900lm is 15mins before it needs turbo re-activating.

Capolini(roberto) also uses an extension,maybe a good idea if you want longer run times,again he will give exact details but sure roberto has reported over 2hrs 30 mins of turbo.............very impressive.


----------



## dazed1

ven said:


> I am sure you wont be able to get turbo,so only high once cells are lower,not sure what time that happens as never tested,capolini maybe able to answer that .iirc he gets well over an hour as uses turbo permanently by resetting after 20mins(2600lm) and the 2900lm is 15mins before it needs turbo re-activating.
> 
> Capolini(roberto) also uses an extension,maybe a good idea if you want longer run times,again he will give exact details but sure roberto has reported over 2hrs 30 mins of turbo.............very impressive.



Thanks, long runtimes are not my need, i only need to know at what point generally i will start to lose input, is it at 50% lower? i know there is no correct answer on this, but i just want to know the general answer, so i won't need to re-charge my batteries everytime when i want to compare my TK 75 vs my BTU Shocker.


----------



## RepProdigious

So here's the deal; When you put a load on a cell the voltage will sag. The higher the load (aka more ampz) the deeper the sag, lower starting voltage ofc also means lower voltage after load. So a 'dumb' direct drive light will see a steady drop in brightness non-stop. Your light however regulates power going through the leds as long as theres enough voltage to do so, to manage this you light will keep an eye on the voltage and will drop down the load (aka lower mode) under a certain voltage. How heavy the load is mainly depends on the flashlight, how significant the voltage sag is proportional to the load mainly depends on the cells you use - and that's something you can really see happening in the graphs in this thread. Take this one for example;
http://www.lygte-info.dk/pic/battery 18650/AW18650-2600.png
AW18650 2600mAh protected, black/red/green --> 0.3A/1A/3A load resp.

As you can see, if your flashlight were to monitor at the 3.5volt threshold under the lightest load (black line) it would be fine all the way till your battery is over 90% depleted before it will get that low. Under the 3A load however it would not take long at all after about 25% cell depletion give or take. Keep in mind that these kind of graphs do not plot runtime directly so you have to squint a bit (under the .3A load the cell above would die after 8 or 9 hours, while the 3A load would not make it last 60 minutes something that's hard but not impossible to tell from the graph above).

Now the battery configuration in your light is a 2S2P iirc, so all cells individually only have to carry half the current but still with 3 heavy driven leds this will put a substantial drain on your cells. Here's a runtime graph for your exact light on four fresh 2600mAh 18650s;





As you see the person making the graph had to bump the light back up to turbo every 20 minutes (like ven said) and like you can see output does not sag significantly during its full hour plus on turbo so this light has very decent regulation. Now to figure out how much % the batteries had exactly at that 1hr6min mark where it stepped down is a bit tricky and would also be completely trivial as your batteries might respond to a load like this completely different... and its useless as cell voltage does not affect output given this good regulation anyways.

So as to answer you question; As you can see from the graph as long as your light will stay on in turbo mode the output will always be more or less the same (if you ignore the first 30 or so seconds)! So it doesn't matter if your cells are fully charged or half empty, output will be the same as long as they can give enough voltage under load to keep the light in regulation (quality cells might be able to deliver enough voltage all the way till they are 20% empty where cheapies might not be able to deliver even when completely full)! What will affect output more than anything is temperature at this point so if you want absolute max output for comparison just make sure the light is nice and cool (but i think comparing lights 'hot' is fairer as you then will also compare their heat sinking capabilities).

Image tags deleted from hot linked images - Norm


----------



## ven

Excellent Mr Rep:twothumbs so around 1hr depending on cells 2600,so 3400mah would allow maybe 20mins more...........(dont know just a guess) but shows once you cant activate turbo again then the next opportunity the cells should be charged/topped off. That is how i use my cells anyway,i find it good practice to top off cells after use(within reason of course).No point if used for 5 minutes..........but 20-30 mins for example i would top cells off .


----------



## HKJ

RepProdigious said:


> So here's the deal; When you put a load on a cell the voltage will sag. ...



Good explanation, but be careful with measuring sag at high loads, a lot of equipment will add their own voltage drop in addition to the batteries.
I have made my setup slightly better, but it is still not perfect.




I do also have curves with a time scale in my review.


To get it perfect for measuring the battery only your basically needs two wires for each pole with individual connections, one set is used for measuring voltage, the other set for drawing current.


----------



## dazed1

Thanks guys, some fantastic posts there - great! :twothumbs


----------



## edgar yang

Hi, HKJ,
You did an interesting work. However, maybe I can clarify you something, because I have worked in China battery factory for a long time, and I know why.
It is normal for 18650 to discharge less capacity at higher discharge current. But their difference should not be too big. On such occasion, it is because of bad quality battery. 
We often see AW, Trustfire or Fest batteries, they don't produce battery but just assemble protect circuit after purchase Panasonic or Sony cells. But if they work not well, maybe the buit-in battery is not original brand cell, may be used.
I have used T18650S as flashlight battery. They seem to work similar to above brand battery, but much cheap. Maybe you can try.
Unnecessary long quote removed......Bill


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## LED User

Wow! You guys never cease to amaze and impress me!

HKJ - Incredible job with this thread.
I wondered if there was any info. here at cpf for rechargeable batteries dimensions- I should have known. :thumbsup: :duh2:

This site is an incredible resource, and great community, my congratulations to everyone who built this site and has contributed to make it what it is today. 
I know personally from having created a great Ohio fishing website with some partners that it takes a ton of work and dedication over a period of years to make it top notch, and keep it that way. 
I'm pleased to be a new member.
.


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## HKJ

LED User said:


> HKJ - Incredible job with this thread.



If you want to see more about batteries and chargers check my website, all my test and reviews are collected there.
You can also find many of them here, if you want to discuss something about a particular review/product.


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## KDM

Correct me if I've overlooked it but I am looking forward to seeing your test of the new higher capacity AW IMR cells. Thanks for all the valuable information your provide!


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## HKJ

KDM said:


> Correct me if I've overlooked it but I am looking forward to seeing your test of the new higher capacity AW IMR cells. Thanks for all the valuable information your provide!



I might one day test some more AW cells, but he does not give them to me, I have to buy them. This means I will not be looking at them when I have other batteries in queue.


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## Diver_Dan28

Hi guys & gals I'm new to this forum so if this in the wrong place please move it to the correct area. I bought a blinding light off Amazon. I use it for diving. It works better than I expected. 
I was curious about the battery life span though. It lasts about an hour with a full charge and charged it about 2 weeks ago and went to turn the light on and it's almost dead. I know they drain slowly by themselves as my rc airplane batteries do also, however I was wondering how many charges I can expect out of them. 
The batteries themselves are called ultra fire brc 18650 4000 mAh 3.7 li-ion. Are there better batteries out there and if so can anyone point me in the right direction to buy another set. Also a faster shipping time.The light took about 3 weeks to get here from China thanks in advance. Dan


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## Herzeleid14

*Default Re: LiIon 18650 battery comparison*

Purchased my first flashlight that isnt a cheapo from the dollar store, it takes 18650, and im really liking it. 
My only question is if the batteries im using are well suited for it?
I'm no stranger to the 18650 battery, or batteries themselves, im just not certain whats recommended as far ad Mah/amps and internal chemistry for flashlights. 

What ive got are plenty of Sony VTC5s. I feel as a flashlight wont need nearly as high of an amp discharge as they provide, and i feel i can get something with much higher Mah than they've got and still be safe.
Aslo are protected batteries recommended? 
thank you


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## SilverFox

*Re: Default Re: LiIon 18650 battery comparison*

Hello Dan,

Welcome to CPF.

*fire brand cells are known to have reliability problems. A good cell shouldn't go dead in a couple of weeks, unless there is a parasitic drain on it. There are many threads and reviews on the various brands and you can look around and find one that may work better.

Typical life span is around 400 complete charge/discharge cycles. 

Tom


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## SilverFox

*Re: Default Re: LiIon 18650 battery comparison*

Hello Herzeleid14,

Just as batteries come in different capacities lights also come with varying current draws. The idea is to match up the capacity of the battery with a run time that is suitable for your application.

Protected cells are safer to use.

Tom


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## mpett1

*Re: Default Re: LiIon 18650 battery comparison*

What do you guys think of these. 


http://www.ebay.com/itm/171374230636?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## MiniLux

*Re: Default Re: LiIon 18650 battery comparison*




mpett1 said:


> What do you guys think of these.
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/171374230636?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT



All 4 together might have a total capacity of 6000mAh 

Look at the specs: capacity is NOT mentioned.

So they just NAME it "6000mAh", but do not confirm any capacity 

Just forget about it and spend the $5.51 into a cool beer


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## HKJ

*Re: Default Re: LiIon 18650 battery comparison*



mpett1 said:


> What do you guys think of these.
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/171374230636?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT



You can see what I think of them here: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/UltraFire SJ18650 6000mAh (Black) UK.html


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## mpett1

*Re: Default Re: LiIon 18650 battery comparison*

I really dont understand what all the graphs mean but it looks like its not good according to your comments. Thanks


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## hydro_pyro

*Re: Default Re: LiIon 18650 battery comparison*

My original Fenix 18650 lasted about a year at peak performance, even though I keep it in my pocket with a half-charge. My Turbo setting (pd32ue) doesn't output higher than the level 4 setting anymore. 

My OrbTronic cells still work great.


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## __philippe

*Re: Default Re: LiIon 18650 battery comparison*



mpett1 said:


> What do you guys think of these.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/171374230636?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT





HKJ said:


> You can see what I think of them here: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/UltraFire SJ18650 6000mAh (Black) UK.html




Thanks again to HKJ for debunking those cells ridiculously inflated specs versus actual mediocre performance under load.

Word to the wise:

Remember the oft repeated old saw about (Trust)Fire batteries 
(and for that matter any ****Fire branded batteries, aka BackFire, MisFire, SpitFire, WontFire....) :

_*"Keep off anything branded ****Fire if you can, handle only with a bargepole if you must..." 
*_　
__philippe


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## IsaacL

HKJ said:


> I might one day test some more AW cells, but he does not give them to me, I have to buy them. This means I will not be looking at them when I have other batteries in queue.



That is a little disappointing but I completely understand. I wouldn't be ecstatic about buying cells just to review them either. 

Are there any plans to test the LG HE2, Samsung 25R, and Panasonic high drain (i.e. PF/PB/BD...) cells? 

Much gratitude for all your excellent reviews!


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## HKJ

IsaacL said:


> Are there any plans to test the LG HE2, Samsung 25R, and Panasonic high drain (i.e. PF/PB/BD...) cells?



I have tested some of them, use this index to find them: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/batteryIndexUnprotected UK.html

I have probably tested all of them, but not all manufacturers will disclose what cells they uses.


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## IsaacL

HKJ said:


> I have tested some of them, use this index to find them: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/batteryIndexUnprotected UK.html
> 
> I have probably tested all of them, but not all manufacturers will disclose what cells they uses.



Thank you! I wasn't aware of that index on your site...my bad.


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## mbenitez01

OUTSTANDING WORK!!! THANK YOU VERY MUCH

Do you have any data about Bailong batteries? (blue ones)..which are marketed as 8800 mAh (but I doubt it so much!)


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## sidecross

IsaacL said:


> Thank you! I wasn't aware of that index on your site...my bad.


I have the HKJ index bookmarked as a valuable and often used resource. :thumbsup:


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## cy

anything new?


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## vadimax

sidecross said:


> I have the HKJ index bookmarked as a valuable and often used resource. :thumbsup:



Definitely, +1. It helped me to realize that Fujitsu AAA a hair better than Eneloops


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