# Mag D body high temp socket replacement



## JimmyM (Apr 2, 2011)

This seemed as good a place for this as any I suppose.
I've started this thread to take the discussion of the sourcing of new bi-pin sockets for Mag lights out of AlanB's sales thread.

So far...
KIUs socket system uses a socket with 1.0 mm2 (about 17ga) wires with silicone insulation.
The sockets supplied with FiveMega's bi-pin socet mount are 0.5mm2 (~20ga).
A lot of the sockets I've found, either don't specify the wire size or are 0.5mm2 - 0.75mm2.
I have found a few that specify 1.0mm2.

Here is a conversion chart for Wire gauge sizes to mm2 sizes.
15 AWG ~= 1.65mm2
16 AWG ~= 1.31mm2
17 AWG ~= 1.04mm2
18 AWG ~= 0.823mm2
19 AWG ~= 0.653mm2
20 AWG ~= 0.518mm2
21 AWG ~= 0.410mm2

I've got emails out to suppliers in China regarding samples of G4/G5.3/G6.35 Bi-pin sockets with wires for specs and samples.

I'd like to buy several hundred. Although unit pricing on 10,000 unit orders is appealing.

KIUs sockets used metric hardware M3-0.5 size. A similar American Standard size is 4-40.
Stainless metric hardware in those sizes is pretty cheap in quantities of 1000.

I've built a 3D model of a modified socket base to submit to eMachineShop for a quote.

See below.




Like Alan's drop-in, it has both M3-0.5 and 4-40 screw holes. (4-40s are marked with little dimples).
It's the same ID and OD as KIUs and the top is the same height as his but there is no pedestal. Thus there is more room underneath for electronics. Also, they're cheaper to produce in this configuration.

And here's a quick C body base.


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## jabe1 (Apr 2, 2011)

Ask about scaling it down to C size also! Although, I feel a proper 1185 build coming on...


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## JimmyM (Apr 2, 2011)

jabe1 said:


> Ask about scaling it down to C size also! Although, I feel a proper 1185 build coming on...


 Sure. I'll see what I can put together.


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## Justin Case (Apr 2, 2011)

How about small "windows" for the trim pots on your D Mag regulator? Or will the trim pot functionality be eliminated in V2? I probably can live without a window for the programming header, but it might be interesting to see what the delta is in cost of fabrication.

To protect the regulator from heat coming through the small openings, I've made a little sheet metal shield. It has a hole on one end where it attaches to one of the long mounting screws for the base.


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## jseklund (Apr 2, 2011)

Thanks JimmyM, I was thinking that same thing - we kind of got over excited in the order thread 

Anyway - I too am willing to help in the search. I have a few sockets on order, nothing exotic yet, but maybe we'll get lucky. I've also emailed a couple of chinese suppliers myself...we'll see what comes of it if anything.


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## JimmyM (Apr 2, 2011)

Justin Case said:


> How about small "windows" for the trim pots on your D Mag regulator?


That's a good idea. Let me see what I can do there. I don't want to over complicate things. Just nice simple bases would be good too.


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## JimmyM (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm getting quotes on 1,000 and 10,000 units FOB United states with 1.0mm2 and 1.5mm2 silicone wires.
I'm also working on samples of several different units.


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## jseklund (Apr 5, 2011)

Jimmy, 
I got the sockets that I ordered - and I have never looked at one of these sockets before, so I'm inexperienced, but they appear to be MUCH nicer than I anticipated. I didn't have high hopes. I don't have any way of measuring the wire thickness, but they are not flimsy at all. If you flex them, they stay put. There are about 7 strands in each wire, not that that means anything really. At any rate, I compared it to some 14G car stereo hook up wire that I had laying around (that's all I had, sorry) - and it's not quite there, but I feel confident saying it's at least 18G. I measured the resistence by tying the wire ends together and sticking the MM probes in each hole and got 00.2 with the meter set at 200 Ohm.

I'm not sure if this is good, bad, or what. I'm not even sure that I measured correctly. What I do know is that I put an Osram 60357 in the socket and it fit VERY tight - no play at all. This is a larger bulb of course - so I'm not sure how the smaller pins will do, but this thing is in there tight. I also hooked it up to a battery pack breifly (I've never seen one of these bulbs at all, never the less over-driven) and WOW. 5 26500's lit that bulb up like you wouldn't believe. The socket got warm after about 20-30 seconds, but was still touchable. 

Let me know what else I should test on these things - I'm excited because I've never had one before, but I've got 5 and will do whatever you need to test them.

Thanks!


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## JimmyM (Apr 5, 2011)

jseklund said:


> Jimmy,
> I got the sockets that I ordered - and I have never looked at one of these sockets before, so I'm inexperienced, but they appear to be MUCH nicer than I anticipated. I didn't have high hopes. I don't have any way of measuring the wire thickness, but they are not flimsy at all. If you flex them, they stay put. There are about 7 strands in each wire, not that that means anything really. At any rate, I compared it to some 14G car stereo hook up wire that I had laying around (that's all I had, sorry) - and it's not quite there, but I feel confident saying it's at least 18G. I measured the resistence by tying the wire ends together and sticking the MM probes in each hole and got 00.2 with the meter set at 200 Ohm.
> 
> I'm not sure if this is good, bad, or what. I'm not even sure that I measured correctly. What I do know is that I put an Osram 60357 in the socket and it fit VERY tight - no play at all. This is a larger bulb of course - so I'm not sure how the smaller pins will do, but this thing is in there tight. I also hooked it up to a battery pack breifly (I've never seen one of these bulbs at all, never the less over-driven) and WOW. 5 26500's lit that bulb up like you wouldn't believe. The socket got warm after about 20-30 seconds, but was still touchable.
> ...


Good info. The wires are probably 0.75mm2 wires. But I could be wrong. If they are indeed 1.0mm2 or 18ga, that's pretty good.
Do you have any bulbs with pins smaller than the 60357? Where did you get it? who makes it? etc. We can see about getting a quote for them in bulk. 100-1000 units perhaps.
I've got a FedEx account now and can get some samples shipped from China. But it will have to wait until I get back from vacation. The units directly from China are very cheap in large quantities, but that's FOB China, not FOB my house. After I have a couple of good candidates that have 1.0-1.5mm2 wires I can get quotes on 1000 to 10000 units FOB United States.


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## jseklund (Apr 5, 2011)

Jimmy, The only other bulb I have is the 633 which is large also. The bulbs do fit in very tightly and you can't wiggle them with your hands if you try. They are hard to pull out also. I left one on for over a minute and it was just warm to the touch - I could hold the socket in my hand. It wasn't in a flashlight though, so I'm sure it will get hotter once it's enclosed in something.

The sockets are just Leviton 80054 sockets, which seem to be widely available. I got them from GalesburgElectric.com for $1.84 each, which I'm not sure is the best price either - didn't have time to look around too much. I don't think they're 1.5 mm but they are easily 0.75mm and MAY be 1.0 but...I am hestant to say that withought being able to measure. It's difficult to tell with measurements that small ....


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## JimmyM (Apr 5, 2011)

Here's a link to the specs on the Leviton site. LINK
They are 18ga wires


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## Justin Case (Apr 5, 2011)

See post #362 in AlanB's thread "Feeler - Programmable Hotwire Regulated Driver drop-in for [email protected]" for some nice teardown photos of an Osram Sylvania TP61 vs Kiu socket. Pay particular notice to the difference in the clamps for the sockets. The Kiu clamp will grip a bi-pin leg on a line, while the TP61 clamp will grip a bi-pin leg at a point. Kiu also uses a small spring to exert additional force to grip a bi-pin. However, it looks like the Kiu design doesn't spring back as effectively once you insert a fat bi-pin leg into it (makes something like a WA1111 fit loosely if you use an Osram 64250 first). It looks like there is some degree of permanent deformation in the Kiu clamps, and even the small spring doesn't seem to help much after that.

Also see this Sylvania link for information on their lampholders and associated wires. The most robust wire looks to be the MGT (600V, 450C), available in 18 ga. Next are UL1659 and UL1726, at 600V/250C, in 16 and 18 ga respectively.

A possible issue with the Leviton socket is that the screw holes are not recessed (compare to the TP61 and Kiu sockets). Thus, you have to make sure that your screw head doesn't interfere with the bulb.


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## JimmyM (Apr 5, 2011)

Below is a posting taken from AlanB's Regulator feeler thread showing the other issue we're dealing with. Not just the wire size, but the contact construction.

(Alan or Lux. If you'd rather I just link to your original post I can do that too. But I just figured it would be more convenient for readers this way.)


Originally posted by Lux Luthor.

_Thumbnails_



 

 



I stuck a WA 1164 and it gripped nicely in both holes. Then I inserted larger Osram bipin in one of my samples a dozen times, trying to loosen it up like what happens with KIU. It did not loosen up. I went back to the 1164, and it again gripped the same as originally.

I suspect that you may have one that started a bit looser, but it is possible to move the wire underneath slightly to one side, and expose one side of "U" arm. I was able to push a heavy pin or jewelers small blade screwdriver blade outside of arm and bend it slightly more inward, then repeat with other "U" arm, so it gripped even tighter.

Again, it's up to you and we don't want to get hung up on something as silly as a bulb holder, but I never found a way to get the KIU slot back to holding a WA bulb once enlarged.

LOL....well before I go to bed, figured what the hell, I'll take these apart and see what's up between them, so now you can see that KIU actually put a small segment of spring to help keep tension on leafs, and it is also a "U" style. So, the same could be done with the Osram. I ground down the bottom flanged a bit with dremel pointed grinder, and it then pushed up easily....and could be shoved back down and anchored again. Well now we know.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 6, 2011)

LOL! I barely remember having taken both of those apart, but it is interesting seeing their construction again. If the only issue is the wire guage, you could take apart those Osram like I did and solder a thicker wire to it....or are you trying to address the KIU aluminum pedestal?



JimmyM said:


> Below is a posting taken from AlanB's Regulator feeler thread showing the other issue we're dealing with. Not just the wire size, but the contact construction.
> 
> (Alan or Lux. If you'd rather I just link to your original post I can do that too. But I just figured it would be more convenient for readers this way.)
> 
> ...


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## JimmyM (Apr 6, 2011)

LuxLuthor said:


> LOL! I barely remember having taken both of those apart, but it is interesting seeing their construction again. If the only issue is the wire guage, you could take apart those Osram like I did and solder a thicker wire to it....or are you trying to address the KIU aluminum pedestal?


Right now, the sockets are what's giving me the most trouble. I've gotten quotes for sockets with 1.0mm2 and 1.5mm2 15cm silica insulated wires, but I still need to get samples to have a look at the internal contact construction. THAT's the tricky part. I'd be buying at least 1000 sockets. Soldering bigger wires to each of them isn't really an option.

I already have prices on the replacement bases for both C and D bodies and sources for the metric hardware.


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## Justin Case (Apr 6, 2011)

If you want to duplicate the Kiu wiring, he uses Silitherm SRL silicone wire. I counted the number of conductors -- 32. So it looks like the wire could be 1mm^2. the Osram Sylvania TP61 is available in 16 ga, so wire gauge doesn't look to be an issue. Unit price could be high for the TP61. Is there resistance data comparing the Kiu vs TP61 clamping methods?


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## JimmyM (Apr 26, 2011)

Justin Case said:


> If you want to duplicate the Kiu wiring, he uses Silitherm SRL silicone wire. I counted the number of conductors -- 32. So it looks like the wire could be 1mm^2. the Osram Sylvania TP61 is available in 16 ga, so wire gauge doesn't look to be an issue. Unit price could be high for the TP61. Is there resistance data comparing the Kiu vs TP61 clamping methods?


No analysis that I've seen. However, it may be worth a look to compare the 2.

I'm just back from a couple weeks away on vacation. I'll be pursuing the sample leads I got before I left.


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## Justin Case (May 10, 2011)

In the JM-PhD-D1 sales thread, the FM Brass Heat Sink and Socket product was mentioned as a possible Kiu replacement. Here is my post, copied over from that thread:

The FM socket wires are clearly marked "1x0.5mm2".







There are some complications with the FM setup that probably require measurements to make sure it is compatible with using the JM-PhD-D1 regulator.

First, the FM brass heat sink is not hollow underneath, unlike the Kiu aluminum base. Thus, the brass sink will have to be positioned some distance above the regulator, which will probably sit directly on top of the cut-down D Mag switch body, as before. Presumably, that distance is enough so that the wires aren't excessively kinked, but still ensuring that the bulb is well-focused (i.e., proper filament height).

I built a regulated BigLeef mod and was able to obtain good focus of a Philips 5761 lamp using a D Mag head and a KD v3.1 15mm opening MOP reflector. I'll have to go back to my notes to see if I have an estimate of how much space I had between the regulator and the bottom face of the FM sink.






Second, the FM sink has a recess for the ceramic socket, which also makes a straight comparison between the FM sink and Kiu base slightly more difficult in terms of determining if one can obtain the proper filament height. I'll have to check my notes to see if I measured the depth of the recess.


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## Justin Case (May 10, 2011)

It looks like I didn't measure the depth of the FM brass sink recess. However, I did measure the overall height of the brass sink itself -- 0.374" tall. And the overall height of the FM socket, when mounted on the sink, was 0.618" tall.

I have two different ceramic sockets in-hand -- a no name socket with "K502" molded in the back, and a genuine Kiu socket. The K502 measures 0.374" tall, from bottom face to top of mica shield. Same for the Kiu socket. So, presumably, the FM socket is also the same, and the depth of the brass sink recess is about 0.130".

A Kiu aluminum base looks to be about 0.550" tall from bottom to top of pedestal. If you mounted a ceramic socket directly to the pedestal, not using any of the Kiu-supplied standoffs, then the total height of the socket+base would be about 0.924". This would be the shortest height obtainable with the Kiu setup.

So if you position the FM sink so that the socket top face is at the same height as the shortest Kiu setup height, you would have about 0.924" - 0.618" = 0.316" of space under the FM brass sink for the JimmyM regulator and wires. If you need to use any of the Kiu standoffs to raise the socket higher, then you'd have that much more space under the FM sink since you'd also slide up the FM sink higher in the Mag tube.

The regulator cavity in the Kiu aluminum base is only about 0.28" deep. Since that is enough to fit the regulator and the thick Kiu wires, it appears that there should be plenty of space under the FM sink (about 0.32" min) since most likely you will actually mount the sink higher up in the Mag tube than what I assumed above (which assumed that the socket is attached directly to the Kiu base without any standoffs to raise up the socket).

Here's an idea of how much JM-PhD-D1 space I had with the BigLeef build. My personal suggestion is to find the most flexible wires you can in the gauge desired. IMO, stiff wires are more of a hassle and always seem to fold over right at the junction of the through hole connections. I worry about the wires fatiguing and breaking off at those junctions, if I have to open up the build to get access to the regulator for some reason. Thus, I would also put in access holes so that one can adjust the Vbulb and Vlow trim pots without having to partially disassemble the build.


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## Aircraft800 (May 10, 2011)

I am using a similar setup as the FM, but was made by cmacclel‎

No problems with height with a Oaram 64623


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## Justin Case (May 10, 2011)

The issue was if you had enough space to fit the JimmyM regulator under the FM brass heat sink once the sink+socket was positioned properly for the filament height. There are two things that have to be satisfied simultaneously -- filament height and sufficient space under the sink. Both were satisfied for the BigLeef mod I did recently and it looks pretty certain that they will also be satisfied for D Mag mods.


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## Aircraft800 (May 11, 2011)

I am running a Multi-level JM-PhD-D1 PWM Hotwire Regulator in that 3D Mag with 4 IMR 26500 cells, sorry I didn't mention that earilier. I didn't have a issue with space, but I did forget to drill adjustment holes.


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## wquiles (May 11, 2011)

By the way Justin, nice job with the closeup/macro photos - very good lighting, composition, and focus


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## Justin Case (May 13, 2011)

For a combination ceramic socket pedestal/heat sink like the FM product, I'd like to see a different way to friction fit the sink in the host tube, whether a D Mag, BigLeef Mag adapter, or something else. The FM design uses a cut in the otherwise solid brass disk, allowing a small amount of flex when you use a pair of pliers to compress the sink. Unfortunately, this design doesn't seem to have enough allowance to fit the slightly smaller ID of a BigLeef Mag adapter. IMO, it would be nice to come up with a more forgiving design, although I also understand that the vast majority of the market is probably for D Maglites. So, you'd potentially be increasing part complexity and cost to address perhaps only a few folks. Nevertheless, maybe something similar to an old-style bicycle quill stem design that uses an angled wedge might work. Untightened, you have a fair amount of allowance to fit into a wide range of tube IDs. Crank down on the tightening screw and the sink is wedged tight (and hopefully the bulb is centered!).


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## Stephen Wallace (May 14, 2011)

A wider adjustment range would be nice to take old, pre-D serial, wider bored Mags in to account as well - not all that many upgrades available for those.


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## jellydonut (May 14, 2011)

Britelumens makes copper sleeves for installing LED mods in the older Mags.

For incandescent mods however, it might be more prudent to make a sleeve of the same dimension, but from an insulating material. A ceramic sleeve, or something similar. Am I right?


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## Stephen Wallace (May 14, 2011)

I think Jo has the sleeves for C's but not for D's. But we're getting off topic. Back to sockets.


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## Xuen7 (May 31, 2011)

i want one of this... wondering if i will get a PM for you telling me about paying instructions...


.. this hobby is killing me... cant believe i am looking forward to giving some guy money.


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## JimmyM (May 31, 2011)

Xuen7 said:


> i want one of this... wondering if i will get a PM for you telling me about paying instructions...
> 
> 
> .. this hobby is killing me... cant believe i am looking forward to giving some guy money.


Not taking any money for this. This is a problem/solution discussion.


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## EMC2 (Dec 14, 2011)

This claims to be 750W
http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/Mer...Category_Code=SocketsHalogen&Product_Count=10

There is a few here too
http://www.rcchre.com/CatPages/ADL/Hardware/H037.html
http://www.harringtonlights.com/products/halogen_repair_parts.htm

My question is where do I get the KIU base or the dimensions to have one made. I would rather buy it but I do have a guy that could make a few 2 doors down. Heck We could even add a few improvements to it too.


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## JimmyM (Dec 15, 2011)

EMC2 said:


> This claims to be 750W
> http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/Mer...Category_Code=SocketsHalogen&Product_Count=10
> 
> There is a few here too
> ...


I've seen several of the sockets like the one you mentioned. Also, note that it says 250V, So 750W @ 250V is only 3 Amps. a 100W 12V bulb draws 8.3A. But the wires on the original KIU sockets weren't all that big either. So it may work for you.

The 3D image you saw above is from eMachineShop. If you want, PM me your email address and I'll send you the file.


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## Mr Happy (Dec 15, 2011)

EMC2 said:


> My question is where do I get the KIU base or the dimensions to have one made. I would rather buy it but I do have a guy that could make a few 2 doors down. Heck We could even add a few improvements to it too.



If you have machine shop facilities available (I wish I did!), simply take an existing Mag switch/bulb pillar assembly, measure its dimensions, design something and make away.


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## Mr Happy (Dec 15, 2011)

JimmyM said:


> I've seen several of the sockets like the one you mentioned. Also, note that it says 250V, So 750W @ 250V is only 3 Amps. a 100W 12V bulb draws 8.3A. But the wires on the original KIU sockets weren't all that big either. So it may work for you.



I think those ratings are probably for permanent installation and 24 hour operation. I also imagine the power ratings are for heat load as much as anything. When used in a flashlight for just minutes at a time, I doubt you need to worry too much about the socket handling 10 A instead of 3 A.


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## EMC2 (Dec 15, 2011)

Hmm. Some of the sockets appear to be a little different in design so they may work a little differently. 

If the socket does not need to dissipate heat a direct wire crimp would do the trick or a ring terminal attached to the switch with a nut and bolt. Small individual aluminum blocks/clamps possibly separated with heat shrink or rubber? Some sort of Bakelite screw clamp device perhaps?

Potting components in thermally conductive epoxy can work too,


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## Mr Happy (Dec 15, 2011)

EMC2 said:


> If the socket does not need to dissipate heat...



But it does, it does. I rigged up a 50 W halogen on the bench for testing with a couple of alligator clips to the pins and after running for only a few seconds the alligator clips were too hot to touch and plastic insulation on the clips and leads was softening and melting. Everything that comes near a high power halogen lamp needs to be made of metal, porcelain or other heat resistant materials. Nothing plastic like heat shrink or rubber will survive.


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## JimmyM (Dec 16, 2011)

Mr Happy said:


> Everything that comes near a high power halogen lamp needs to be made of metal, porcelain or other heat resistant materials. Nothing plastic like heat shrink or rubber will survive.


No truer words have ever been spoken.


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