# Street robber/mugger blinding torch needed.



## rob3rto (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi. As per title. What small handbag friendly torch would you suggest? Got to be able to blind them for 30 seconds, easy to use, maybe strobe effect? Want to buy one for my now wife for when I can't pick her up from the train station.


----------



## sol-leks (Jan 28, 2010)

I think you will find some good choices if you go to shiningbeam.com and check out their single cr123 lights. They should all give you around 180 OTF lumens, and you could get one of the romisens which only has one mode or one of tactical ITP's which can be programmed to a specific mode. I'm not too familiar with the romisens, but they say 2 hour runtime which makes me think they might be slightly less bright. I think the quark 123 tactical could be a good choice too. I think in generall most single 123 new tactical lights are going to suit your purposes, although you might still want to go with the romisen just because its so simple, 1 mode on/off.


----------



## rickypanecatyl (Jan 28, 2010)

I don't want to hijack your thread but do you mind if I include the question

How durable are strike bezels? When you hit a hard headed guy repeatedly will the light still function?


----------



## DimeRazorback (Jan 28, 2010)

If a dude got hit in the head with a strike bezel, his skin would split before the Al broke...

Just look at the E2DL's strike bezel... scary.

My experience is here.


----------



## dudemar (Jan 28, 2010)

Nothing gets between me and my Polarion PH50.



When you absolutely, positively, gotta blind every mother****** in the alleyway, accept no substitute.



I'm kidding, I'm just a huge fan of the film "Jackie Brown". In all seriousness a compact one cell light might do the trick. Keep in mind though blinding someone with a flashlight is pretty overrated, unless of course you have something like a PH50...


----------



## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 28, 2010)

rob3rto said:


> Hi. As per title. What small handbag friendly torch would you suggest? Got to be able to blind them for 30 seconds, easy to use, maybe strobe effect? Want to buy one for my now wife for when I can't pick her up from the train station.


hmmm, desperate, jumped up, experienced street robber (or two....) versus untrained woman with supposedly blinding torch buried at bottom of handbag, how do you reckon the score in that match will end up............

I still can't fathom the idea that people think a torch can protect them, I really can't. Either you can fight or you can't, I don't see how a torch changes things (unless of course it's to see where you aim your Glock).


----------



## Lighthouse one (Jan 28, 2010)

Forget the torch for your wife...get her a stun gun and some pepper spray and a loud whistle. Blinding light only works in near total darkness....and only for a few seconds. I just remembered...a can of wasp spray. It will cause blindness if not washed out quickly. Better them than a dead wife.


----------



## hotlight (Jan 28, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> hmmm, desperate, jumped up, experienced street robber (or two....) versus untrained woman with supposedly blinding torch buried at bottom of handbag, how do you reckon the score in that match will end up............
> 
> I still can't fathom the idea that people think a torch can protect them, I really can't. Either you can fight or you can't, I don't see how a torch changes things (unless of course it's to see where you aim your Glock).




OP from UK, no guns allowed.... I'd have to say a light is probably better than nothing, pepper spray will probably be more effective(not sure if thats allowed in UK either) than a light, stun gun??


a small light on lithium ion or cr123/s is probably the best bet unless willing to carry a tk40 sized light....if its really dark, a single AA on high might be enough to temporarily "blind" someone.

if the light is only gonna be used for "protection"... you'll want a UI with MAX and Strobe only.IMO


----------



## Yucca Patrol (Jan 28, 2010)

A flashlight just isn't going to do anything other than give your wife a false sense of security. 

I know the laws in the UK forbid most any self-defense devices, but if you want a legal way to blind a would-be mugger, give your wife a handful of sand and tell her to throw it at their eyes.


----------



## waddup (Jan 28, 2010)

Yucca Patrol said:


> A flashlight just isn't going to do anything other than give your wife a false sense of security.
> 
> I know the laws in the UK forbid most any self-defense devices, but if you want a legal way to blind a would-be mugger, give your wife a handful of sand and tell her to throw it at their eyes.



excellent idea :thumbsup:

a plastic bag with some sand is easy to carry, one in every coat/bag.

very good and practical UK self defense tip.


----------



## Warp (Jan 28, 2010)

A good pepper spray and, better yet, a handgun as well.


A flashlight cannot be counted on to do anything, and it certainly isnt going to actually "blind" anybody.


This is why I live in the United States. The fact that people think a bag of sand makes a good self defense tool and is, in fact, possibly one of the better legal options is incredibly sad. I feel for you. 

Wasp spray....that's not bad. Pretty stupid that you might have to carry that over something like pepper spray that is not toxic and will cause no permenent damage, though.








What you REALLY need is quality professional training in self defense, and maybe a solid cane with stick fighting techniques.


----------



## Juggernaut (Jan 28, 2010)

Wow, it’s been nearly 2 hours and the DM has yet to close the thread after pointing out that about 90,000 billion katrion of them already exist! Not trying to be rude or anything, but discussion about “physically injuring someone” etc isn’t really allowed on here if I can recall, the DM will surly pop in soon and post something along those lines, just giving everyone a heads up.


----------



## Benson (Jan 28, 2010)

By all means, I'd say a flashlight is a good thing no woman (or man) should be without, whether in her purse or otherwise. But relying on photons as weapons -- not a winning recipe.



JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> I still can't fathom the idea that people think a torch can protect them, I really can't. Either you can fight or you can't, I don't see how a torch changes things (unless of course it's to see where you aim your Glock).


In all fairness, in some cases it is likely to change the outcome. Particularly because a lot of morons think "bright flashlight" = "police flashlight", and some of them may run rather than stick around to find out whether you're a cop or not. But I for sure wouldn't bet my life on it.

Except the PH50. That might do the trick.


----------



## Burgess (Jan 28, 2010)

Original Poster has been a CPF member more than 2 Years.


Therefore, he certainly SHOULD know the answer to his question by now. 



(Sigh)
_


----------



## tsask (Jan 28, 2010)

I agree. A search would yeild many prior discussions on this topic.

As appealing as a magic light sabre or beam could be, it is NOT a reality.
YES bright lights have tactical uses, but these are MEGA MEGA "non LED" & masssive current devouring. 

A light in some night conditions, COULD be helpful , especially coupled with distance etc.

A blinding strobe could suprise a predator and maybe that could buy enough time to react or escape.

strike bezels? sure in the right hands 
OTOH getting mauled by your own light doesn't sound appealing. 

That "WASP SPRAY" use in the USA,while possibly VERY effective, could be a violation of Fed law. (read the label)


----------



## Warp (Jan 28, 2010)

Benson said:


> By all means, I'd say a flashlight is a good thing no woman (or man) should be without, whether in her purse or otherwise. But relying on photons as weapons -- not a winning recipe.
> 
> In all fairness, in some cases it is likely to change the outcome. Particularly because a lot of morons think "bright flashlight" = "police flashlight", and some of them may run rather than stick around to find out whether you're a cop or not. But I for sure wouldn't bet my life on it.


 

Yes. A bright light directly in the eyes along with a firm verbal command can work wonders, or so I hear.

BUT I intend to have my Glock in the event that it doesn't work. Or if I am in an off limits location I will at least have pepper spray (the good stuff WORKS) and a knife. Gun is best, though. Trump card.


----------



## hyperloop (Jan 28, 2010)

waddup said:


> excellent idea :thumbsup:
> 
> a plastic bag with some sand is easy to carry, one in every coat/bag.
> 
> very good and practical UK self defense tip.



mix in ground peppers and chillis with the sand 

but back on topic, seeing that it's just meant to blind etc a potential perpetrator of peril (alliteration intended) i would assume that runtime is NOT an issue. 

Was thinking of a Solarforce L2M with an SST-50 drop in or Solarforce's MC-E drop in, oh and get the forward clicky switch from solarforce too. all items available *HERE*

EDIT: don't forget to get a clip so it can be clipped in accessible place instead of rolling around somewhere at the botttom of the bag, better yet, get her to hold it in her hand immediately upon exiting the station.

One of those personal alarms would be good too


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Jan 28, 2010)

OP... your time would be better spent trying to change your laws and regaining your personal freedoms and human rights .


----------



## Search (Jan 28, 2010)

rickypanecatyl said:


> When you hit a hard headed guy repeatedly will the light still function?



Good god, making that statement a reality will likely lead to manslaughter charges lol


If I thought it was possible to find, I would show a video of 10+ people with knives walking right through OC. Pepper spray is like a pain compliance thing, do what I say or I'll burn your face off. It isn't going to stop an attacker if they want you.

Civilian stun guns are as useful as a big stick. I actually prefer the stick. 100,000 volts! An X26 delivers somewhere well below 10,000 (I think around 2000) when it actually hits a target. It's the watts. Civilian stun gun will never have the wattage and amps to affect the nervous and muscular system like "a cops taser".

The best thing to do if you can't carry a gun is to get something like an E2DL. It won't affect their aggressive attitude, but it will shield the fact that you are fixing to split their face open. In the end, the worst case scenario is you might get a blood born disease (Which workers comp doesn't cover in some states, what?).


----------



## Warp (Jan 28, 2010)

Search said:


> If I thought it was possible to find, I would show a video of 10+ people with knives walking right through OC. Pepper spray is like a pain compliance thing, do what I say or I'll burn your face off. It isn't going to stop an attacker if they want you.


 

What pepper sprays have you been hit (in the face/eyes) with?

What pepper sprays have you witnessed being used?


No, OC is not a guaranteed thing. Yes, you are correct, some people have a very high tolerance and are not obviously/adversely affected and, yes, you can fight through it. But boy will it drop an awful lot of people like a sack of potatoes. It is an excellent tool to have available. I always carry a bottle. But, like I said above, I also always carry a gun. However, a gun is lethal force...OC is not. If the guy has a knife I shoot him. But absent a weapon or other aggravating circumstances OC is outstanding as it is not lethal force. In fact it will not actually injure the person.



I'd like to see videos of guys going right through a quality pepper spray. By that I mean spitfire, fox, saber, etc.




rickypanecatyl said:


> How durable are strike bezels? When you hit a hard headed guy repeatedly will the light still function?


 

If you are hitting a guy in the head repeatedly with a strike bezel the light functioning is probably nothing to be concerned with at that point. What you are doing is likely to be considered lethal force and the guy is likely to be somewhat seriously injured. Whether or not your like works....who the hell cares, really? You probably won't even get it back anyway.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Jan 29, 2010)

B-4 u reply ... keep in mind ... the OP is in the UK ... OK .


----------



## Warp (Jan 29, 2010)

Move?

Give up on having a tool that is suitable for self defense?

Hire a body guard?

Get training in hand to hand combat?

Get the laws changed?


----------



## hyperloop (Jan 29, 2010)

let's stay on topic before this thread gets closed for straying into the self defense arena again 

i still think a L2M with the MC-E might be a good in the face light.


----------



## collo (Jan 29, 2010)

I'm in Australia and the relevent laws here are much the same as the UK..
No guns, knives, sprays, batons or stun devices.

I recently started a thread about being bailed up by a guard dog, looking to get some answers but the discussion went off on a tangent about killing dogs etc and it was rightly closed down by the moderators.

Anyway, as a result of that, I began looking around and found No nonsense self defense - an extensive site that strongly stresses avoidance and awareness of the legal consequences should you decide to fight.

Their advice is to make a call as to whether you are going to just be mugged, or whether an assault is about to happen. I know that for a woman, the situation can change quickly, and is never that clear.

If it is just a mugging, give them the dummy purse you have in your bag (the real one is safely out of sight on your person). Make sure it has enough money to be the minimum they might expect you to carry.

If it's a fight, the best legal weapon for EDC is a light about the size of a 2AA maglite. When clenched in the fist, the light protrudes a little out each end, forming a legal Koppo stick. You will need to do some training in advance if this is going to be of any use.

That's about all you're allowed to do in Oz or the UK..


----------



## grunscga (Jan 29, 2010)

Wow. I'm surprised at the number of people being spectacularly unhelpful.

Some of them do have a point, though. If she carries a flashlight, it's primary use is probably not going to be as a weapon, so giving her some custom wonderlight with 3 minutes of runtime is really kind of pointless. Any "tactical" flashlight is going to give her enough light to invoke the "I'm actually the police, so leave me alone" defense, so you might as well pick one that could be useful for everyday tasks, as well.

In this case, I'd go with a single CR123A light. Yes, AAs are ubiquitous, but if you want a reasonable shelf-life and leak resistance, you have to use 1.7V lithium AAs, which are quite expensive (even online), so you might as well go for the more compact CR123A-based lights.

This is one of the few cases where I would actually recommend the Quark Tactical UI (both modes pre-set by you to max/med?), because almost anyone can understand and remember "head tight for bright, head loose for low", so she'll be able to use it normally without blinding herself, but can keep the head tight the rest of the time. Another plus in this case is that the programming mode is almost impossible to get into by accident, so she won't end up with a light stuck in programming mode when she needs it.

Another light that would fit the exact same usage pattern would be the EagleTac P10C (and, there is no programming required or even possible with this one).

My first thought was the NiteCore Extreme, but it's far too easy to accidentally get into programming mode for either setting. Any light where button-pushing changes levels is out, because Murphy guarantees that it will end up in low during any stressful situation. :ironic:

Also, regarding the "wasp spray" that people keep suggesting: I seem to remember reading a few years back that someone in London was successfully prosecuted for carrying oven spray "as a weapon", so I don't think your wasp spray will escape notice... (OMG chemical weapons!!!!)


----------



## Dougzilla (Jan 29, 2010)

ok guys and gals, powerful flashlights can be used as a defensive/escape weapon, but there is a right way to accomplish this goal.

Please have a look at the VIDEO on this page, before you end up in jail....

http://www.brite-strike.com/Lightning_Strike.html

This shows you the proper way to use a flashlight for self defense....

ignore the flashlights they sell because they're over priced, but please look at the video.

-Doug


----------



## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 29, 2010)

The idea of command presence is a useful one to instail but the "attackers" in that video all seem more compliant than most I've ever dealt with.


----------



## Dougzilla (Jan 29, 2010)

LOL yeah that attacker is probably her husband.

I was considering getting my girlfriend this thing
http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/stun-gun-flashlight.html

but knowing her, she'd leave it on by mistake, and stick her hand in her purse, and down she'd go..


----------



## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 29, 2010)

Now that's a true multimode light...........


----------



## Linger (Jan 29, 2010)

Has no-one here ever been to a proper party?
Having spent hundreds of hours at parties with bright lights and banging beats, I can't see how a strobing hand torch is much of a deterrent. Little surefire hardly counts as bright compared to some 1000x watt set-ups I've rigged. People dance in front of them no problem.
Unless she's a great singer or gonna beatbox and convince would-be attacker to dance with her instead, then by all means bring out the little flashy lights!


----------



## dougie (Jan 29, 2010)

As someone has allready alluded to, UK law forbids anyone carrying anything which is, or could be. used offensively. Therefore, if you hurt or permanently injure a would be assailant ,with for instance sand, you would have a hard job trying to convince the police or a court that you hadn't deliberately carried it with that intention. Regrettably self defence in the UK will not allow you have anything on you which would or could be used as a weapon and that as a broad definition could be used to describe almost anything in a woman's handabg! Even flashlights which use a strobe could fall foul of our laws if they are marketed or described as having an offensive capability. For instance the Gladius's strobe has long been a source of debate on British Blades by some of their legally qualified members. The consensus was that if someone claimed it was used on them and caused an adverse effect such as a fit, migraine or temporary blindness then the user would be potentially liable to prosecution. My own view is that the disorientation caused by a strobe or bright light is so fleeting that it is more likely to inflame a would be assailant rather than preventing an attack . In conclusion therfore I personally feel that without a backup of something more potent a flashlight is not effective for self defense purposes.:mecry:


----------



## Egsise (Jan 29, 2010)

Yucca Patrol said:


> A flashlight just isn't going to do anything other than give your wife a false sense of security.


+1


----------



## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 29, 2010)

Dougzilla said:


> LOL yeah that attacker is probably her husband...


Actually, it does kind of remind me of what happened last time I followed my wife up the hallway to her bedroom......


----------



## keith p (Jan 29, 2010)

I can't go through life worrying about being mugged, robbed etc. The only thing I carry on my person that is really worth robbing me for, is my torch...

I live in Metro NY and have dwelled around NYC my whole life. I've never needed my flash light for more than getting me out of the dark.

Add a whistle to your keychain and get on with your life..

As a felon (which I rarely admit), I don't have the right to own a fire arm. The only situations that I could think of where I would need a gun is if aliens, zombies, or Nazis attack NY. SO far I haven't had the need.

There is no replacement for proper self defense training. Bettering yourself is always a good thing.

Be well... & be safe.


----------



## DM51 (Jan 29, 2010)

The OP has been a member here for a while, but with a low post count he is probably not a frequent visitor and has obviously posted this question for perfectly reasonable motives.
 
As other members have pointed out, he is based in the UK, where carrying any type of offensive weapon (gun, gas spray, club, knife, tazer etc) is strictly prohibited.
 
The problem with threads like this is twofold: first, they rapidly head off-topic and into discussion of violence (guns, knives, how best to cause gruesome injuries etc); and second, because there is a tendency to foster the ill-advised notion that by carrying a "blinding" flashlight, a person will be able to defend him/herself from an attacker. 
 
Fumbling in a bag for a flashlight and then (in highly stressful circumstances) trying to remember how to operate it, is to say the least most unlikely to be the best course of action. Far better would be to run and/or scream as loud as possible. As a last-ditch resort, a flashlight might give you a second or two of delay or serve as a blunt (or sharp) object in an unavoidable fight, but that is about it. 
 
As mentioned, there has been the usual straying away into off-topic discussion, but there have been some very sensible posts here also. Let's see if we can bring this thread around by putting an end to the off-topic element of this, and by suggesting other more sensible courses of action for the OP's wife, such as ensuring she does not walk home from the rail station at night by herself, or perhaps that she enrols in a course of self-defense lessons. Most of the good courses will stress the importance of not putting oneself in harm's way in the first place.


----------



## ducat (Jan 29, 2010)

There IS a legal self defence spray available for civilian use in the UK.
Its made by MACE in the USA and is called StoppaRed.

Its a ballistic marker dye that when fired gives someone an almighty smack in the face and then instantly foams up, getting in the eyes, nose and mouth.
As its a permanant dye it takes ages to wash off, and leaves assailants very red-faced and easy to find. It also has a UV component that is detectable for weeks afterwards forensically.

As it is not noxious it is not classed as a section 5 firearm.

It may not have quite the same kick as pepper spray but it hurts like hell and gives you a chance to give it legs and get away.

A lot of security guards in the UK carry it, me included, and it comes highly reccomended. Give their website a look, just google StoppaRed.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Moonshadow (Jan 29, 2010)

Gotta love this from the Brite-Strike website:


> • Unique patented "Tactical Touch®" end cap switch allows the user to switch from high to low to strobe settings, all with a light touch of your finger.


Unique huh ? - Come on guys - that wouldn't by any chance just be a reverse clicky with a fancy name would it ?


----------



## fyrstormer (Jan 29, 2010)

I feel compelled to point out that any mugger worth his salt will just brain you with a wrench from behind before asking you for your wallet.

That being said, if you carry the light in-hand while you're walking, you'll at least have a sporting chance of being able to deter a mugging before it happens, by shining it in dark alleys and recessed doorways and the like. That's what I do. You don't need a strobe mode for that, though, and since the strobe is really only useful after an engagement starts, my money is still going to be on the wrench winning the fight. So if a flashlight comes with a strobe mode, fine, but I wouldn't pay extra for it.


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Jan 29, 2010)

rickypanecatyl said:


> I don't want to hijack your thread but do you mind if I include the question
> 
> How durable are strike bezels? When you hit a hard headed guy repeatedly will the light still function?


I've used my E2DL's bezel to break ice blocks many times. It still looks like new.


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Jan 29, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> OP... your time would be better spent trying to change your laws and regaining your personal freedoms and human rights .


+1!

Well said.


----------



## jorn (Jan 29, 2010)

The sun has 100000 lux. A edc flashlight has lets say 3000-10000 lux. Do you get "stunned" looking at the sun? . With any ambient light a flashlight would be rubbish for self defense, except a 6d mag lite. No mugger would respect your "blinding" edc light. If you flash him, he would prob steal your flashlight too.The mugger would be better armed and more prepared than you (only the mugger knows that you're going to be robbed before it happens). If not better armed, he will be way bigger than his victims. You dont see a tiny dude try to go up agains a big dude unarmed.

Buy her some nice running shoes. (women love shoes so its a win-win situation) I have mentioned it before here on cpf in a similar tread, and still think it's the best advice i can give.


----------



## pilote (Jan 29, 2010)

...pointing a light at some perp at a distance ain't gonna do much, but 100+ lumens in the eyes at close range will blind someone well more than a few seconds, and that victim will be seeing blue spots for at least a good 7-10 mins..."blue spots" are extremely troublesome to walk around on...

...distracting enough to get away? i don't know...


----------



## hyperloop (Jan 29, 2010)

DM51 said:


> The OP has been a member here for a while, but with a low post count he is probably not a frequent visitor and has obviously posted this question for perfectly reasonable motives.
> 
> As other members have pointed out, he is based in the UK, where carrying any type of offensive weapon (gun, gas spray, club, knife, tazer etc) is strictly prohibited.
> 
> ...



lol +1 man, which is why i suggested that the light be in her hand as soon as she exits the train station.

where i live, singapore, when any of my women friends head home, they usually call home so that someone is waiting for them when they get there. This may NOT be possible for OP's wife but it can be considered, perhaps calling a taxi to pick her up and drive her home to the doorstep may be a solution, it may cost more but what is cost compared to the safety of a loved one???

I do not drive, neither does my missus, but i tell her, get a taxi to send u home, ask him to walk you to the elevatorm, give him a tip to do so.

still, back to topic, a light isnt going to do very much but i tried to stick to the topic and am still standin by an L2M with MC-E, small, packs a reasonable punch (runtime as i said, doesnt matter cos it will ONLY be used in emergencies) and get one of the personal alarms.


----------



## john10001 (Jan 29, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> hmmm, desperate, jumped up, experienced street robber (or two....) versus untrained woman with supposedly blinding torch buried at bottom of handbag, how do you reckon the score in that match will end up............
> 
> I still can't fathom the idea that people think a torch can protect them, I really can't. Either you can fight or you can't, I don't see how a torch changes things (unless of course it's to see where you aim your Glock).


 
That's a good point. Usually you won't knwo you're going to be attacked and robbed until its too late anyway. The only way you might have a chance would be if you had the torch immediately to hand at all times in your hand or close by such as on a belt thing with a retractable cord. Even then at close quarters you have got to grab it and turn it on and point it in the attackers face.

Wish we had the option of looking to see where to aim our Glocks here in Britain 

I think the Romisen probably sounds best for this, but in the bottom of a handbag I don't think it will be useful. The attacked might end up with a nice flashlight as well as your money.

John


----------



## Gary123 (Jan 29, 2010)

Can't read this whole thread, but a couple points:

1 - obviously get a click, not a twisty
2 - she will need a lanyard on the light that is attached to her purse strap or something so she can easily find the lanyard and pull the light out.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Jan 29, 2010)

I hope the street robbers and muggers don't catch on to the usefulness of a blinding torch !

If they do ... they will shine one into the eyes of the victim to blind and intimidate THEM ... and also prevent themselves from being identified later in a lineup . ( she can't identify me Judge , I was blinding her with a powerful flashlight )

The robber would also use the blinding torch to disorient the police and prevent his capture .

Judge : ... Officer , did you pursue and apprehend the suspect ?

Officer : ... No Sir , I was blinded by the torch , tripped on my shoelaces, and poo'd myself.

Judge : ... This is a case of "blinded justice" ... case dismissed .


I want to know ... does rob3rto(the OP) really think his "now wife" can be protected from an attack by a flashlight ? He should go to his lawmakers and the local authorities and ask them ... How do they advise *their* wives and mothers to protect themselves if attacked ? A flashlight Forum can't provide the answers !

If she's at the train station , she should look for an officer to stand beside.
.


----------



## Launch Mini (Jan 29, 2010)

Don't take this as advice, but just my opinion.
I would think a woman walking down the street, parking lot etc, with a bright flashlight ON, would be very visible.
I am guessing, a potential mugger, does not want to be seen. So by making oneself, very visible, you would be reducing your odds of confrontation.
AND, if such a perpetrator did approach, and make you uncomfortable, a bright light to the face, a scream or loud "WHAT DO YOU WANT", would draw attention, again something the perp. does not want.
May not be the best defence, but it is something.
Just like a burglar might break into a house without an alarm or dog, they want the path of least resistance.
just my 2 cents here.


----------



## Hitthespot (Jan 29, 2010)

rob3rto said:


> Hi. As per title. What small handbag friendly torch would you suggest? Got to be able to blind them for 30 seconds, easy to use, maybe strobe effect? Want to buy one for my now wife for when I can't pick her up from the train station.


 
There are very few lights (if any) that will fit into a "small handbag" that will blind a person for "30 seconds". However if your looking for a small bright light that is easy to operate with very few modes, I would suggest a Surefire LX2 or a E2Dl. Both are bright, dependable and will give you the highest setting with just a push of the switch. While I like the Olights, Fenix's, Nitecores and so on, most of them have more complicated interfaces compared to the Surefires.

and remember......there is no substitute for the brain when it comes to self preservation. If your wife is going into possible dangerous areas, just plain don't let her. Find another way. It's always too late to say, " I knew I shouldn't of let you go down there".

Good Luck 


Bill


----------



## rob3rto (Jan 29, 2010)

WOW. Been out all day. Lots of replies. Not read them yet but thanks to anyone who replied.


----------



## Mdinana (Jan 29, 2010)

If we MUST stay on the topic of flashlights...
A big 4 D-cell maglite. Cuz, you know, it's really bright. And blunt. So it can't be used to stab someone. 

Or maybe TigerLight. Google them, or check out this review (it's old, sorry) I bet it's so bright that it might burn their eyes.
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/tigerlight_gold.htm

There. I've stayed on topic with several light suggestions.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Jan 29, 2010)

rob3rto , 

You are not going to learn anything constructive from the replies.

You should re-think your wife's security , and not rely on a flashlight beam to repel an attacker - it just won't happen.

You also didn't mention in your OP what weapons the attacker might have that you have to defend against ?

If there is a weapon - she should THROW what ever they want ~ *one direction* ~ while she RUNS the other direction for help .
.


----------



## ducat (Jan 29, 2010)

rob3rto You have a PM.


----------



## Search (Jan 29, 2010)

I'm not going to continue my first post. However, there is no argument and I can prove it, but in a PM if you would like.

Get a 200 ish lumen light with a strike bezel. To remain "legal", I'm not going to say what to do with it again.

However, with 200 lumens, you aren't going to deter an attacker. What you will do is take away their ability to see you. If they can't see you then they don't know what you are fixing to do.

So, if they can't see you, and you have a strike bezel, you do the math.

However, unless she wants to keep it in a pocket, don't expect her to be able to get to it in the few seconds she will need it.


The best thing you can do is ask a cop who has been around for a while. His job is to respond to incidents you are trying to stay out of. He knows what has worked and what hasn't.



TooManyGizmos said:


> You also didn't mention in your OP what weapons the attacker might have that you have to defend against ?



The end to all discussions, when you bring an X to a Y fight. Most of the time the best thing to do is what they say. It's either going to end bad or it isn't. If you **** them off, then you just cut your chances for the most part.

Makes you sick to your stomach doesn't it.


----------



## yalskey (Jan 29, 2010)

Hmmm, I didn't see this thread until just now, so sorry I haven't chimed in here. These are the kinds of questions that I feel I can be of some use on... being that I specialize-in / study / teach interpersonal violence survival / counter-street-crime.

Obviously this topic has been brought up dozen of times per year here on CPF, and I'm not about to go into all the detail it deserves in this post. I did an episode on my Self-Defense Show podcast about this topic as well, if anyone is interested. (See the link below)

#1) Don't totally rely on anyone or any thing for your protection. Self-defense is about layers, and especially preventative / risk-reducing / awareness / avoidance / pre-conflict efforts. All of which you spearhead yourself, pro-actively.

#2) Be realistic about what a good, high-powered flashlight can do for you in the context of self-defense... and what it CANNOT do for you. It's not a magical solve all per se, but it can be a decent aid (especially to your observational awareness) in your self-defense portfolio.

#3) Before you go around cracking skulls with a "strike bezel", know the laws of self-defense in your area. Do you know what justifies using that "weapon" (as the opposing attorney is sure to frame it). When should you use it, and when will it ultimately get you into more trouble than if you didn't use it. (BTW, I never call it a "strike bezel"... I always say it's for "breaking glass in a overturned car" or to let the light peak out when I put the light bezel down on a surface... strategic wording that may or may not help)

#4) Do you have a backup plan if your light is malfunctioning? What if you don't have it with you, or it is inaccessible? What if it gets taken away from you and used against you? What if it doesn't have the desired result (maybe the guy is hyped up on PCP, other drugs, or just plain adrenaline)?

SIDE NOTE: All of this also applies to all devices intended for self-defense... pepper spray, stun guns, even firearms.

I could go on and on here , but I'll stop it at that, because I think you can get the drift. Carrying / using a device / weapon for self-defense is a messy topic with many considerations that each person must consider for themselves. There are pros and cons that need to be weighed by each beforehand. But the big problem (other than the criminals) is people want magical solve-all solutions that give them a sense of security that really doesn't exist.

Do I believe carrying a good high-powered flashlight will make you safer? For myself personally, yes... I've considered all the factors and I believe it's the best choice for me because of my background of understanding violence and my other training and many other things I won't go into. I carry a Dereelight CL1H v4 with an MC-E emitter driven at 2.8v off 2 x RCR123's with a driver that has only max and strobe modes. I keep it on me except when I'm bathing and I practice deploying it over and over. I use it as a part of my self-defense habits on a day to day basis. That's a lot to take on (some of which I'm not mentioning) but I'm doing it for that one day I may need it to be a part of why I was able to go home to my family alive.

P.s. My website has more about this kind of stuff under the VITAL Tour section... http://www.VitalSelfDefense.com

Hope this helps... I realize I left some parts out and skipped over some things I could have gone into... I'm just to lazy to keep typing all this out every time we have one of these threads.


----------



## Linger (Jan 29, 2010)

*Night clubs have strobe lights x times more powerful then any little hand light. **flashing little light does not debilitate,...*people dance to strobe lights, lazers, fog machines...*
*


----------



## yalskey (Jan 29, 2010)

Good point, however that only address the aspect of the light itself "blinding" the assailant. There are other ways a flashlight could be used in a self-defense context. The way I mainly use it is for observational awareness when I'm walking along, especially at night. It can light up potential threats in your surrounding area and take the criminal's advantage of limited visibility (nighttime) away.

Also, it's an obvious signal you are being aware of your surroundings, and thus it may decrease your victim selection attractiveness. Many impulsive-type criminals will just pick a better victim.

The other way I use it (less frequently) is to deter a less committed criminal that is "interviewing me". Often a street mugging will be proceeded with an approach with a question. "Hey buddy, do you have the time?" (or any variation of questions) as they walk into your protective proximity. Once they are up on you, they brandish a weapon and mugg you.

I've halted and thwarted away 3 people in the last 2 years. As they approached me with the question I command them to "Whoa, stop right there"... if they stop, I'll say "Now, what do you want?" If they don't stop on my command, I just called their bluff and I know they aren't interested in a "civil" communication exchange and they have more sinister intent. That's when I go to the next level in my self-defense toolbox. Sometimes it is deploying my flashlight and shinning it in their eyes while blowing my Storm Whistle (which is an aid-alert more than a sonic repulsion). If this doesn't work, I have other options... but you see the key is having options available to you, and doing everything you can beforehand to minimize your risks and tip every little thing in your favor that you can.

With all that said, as most self-defense devices are used today (including flashlights), people might as well just squeeze a crystal talisman... no wait, that might not get you in as much trouble with the law as unwittingly wielding a "Tactical Strike-Bezel Crime Stopper Light Canon".


----------



## Search (Jan 29, 2010)

Go ask a cop, you need to look into some self defense for your wife that doesn't come from the internet.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Jan 29, 2010)

First Opening Post ..... seeking HELP ,



rob3rto said:


> Hi. As per title. What small handbag friendly torch would you suggest? Got to be able to blind them for 30 seconds, easy to use, maybe strobe effect? Want to buy one for my now wife for when I can't pick her up from the train station.




Yalskey ... with your experience and knowledge ......

Can you simply tell rob3rto (the OP) ... if giving his wife a flashlight will protect her from harm ?

His thread title suggests he thinks a blinding torch is needed and will solve the problem.

As you can see ..... many think they are dangerous with a flashlight ... and not to be messed with.

(rob3rto and his wife are in the UK where the criminals seem to have all the protections)
.


----------



## Search (Jan 29, 2010)

Close it here. Said better than I could. A bright light is a step, not an answer.




Justin Case said:


> Intelligent Optical Systems in California has what they call their "puke" flashlight. It does work in controlled testing, but I don't think reactions are instantaneous (other than a possible surprise flinch response).
> 
> The fallacy of the dance floor strobe argument is that you are prepared for the light show and you also don't need a rapid OODA loop response to an opponent. In fighting, even a time lag of a fraction of a second can be enough to either get hit or avoid getting hit. Fractions of a second human response delays on the dance floor are completely irrelevant.
> 
> ...


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Jan 29, 2010)

Best answer ...... avoid areas that cause the hairs on the back of your neck to stand up !


----------



## yalskey (Jan 29, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> Yalskey ... with your experience and knowledge ......
> 
> Can you simply tell rob3rto (the OP) ... if giving his wife a flashlight will protect her from harm ?
> 
> ...



Of course, let me speak to the OP. Although I thought I did a pretty good job laying out my overall stance in my couple of posts, maybe I need to be more direct in addressing the OP.

Will buying your wife a really good flashlight make her safer? Well, if that's all you do, than no, it will probably make her less safe due to the false sense of security it instills and the inherent risks that are introduced when a "weapon" is introduced into the scenario.

If your goal is to empower and equip your wife with habits and abilities that mitigate interpersonal violence (i.e. street crime) then simply buying her a flashlight is kind of missing the point and actually making things worse. In the UK there is a self-defense instructor in Bristol (if I'm not mistaken) named Dik Chance. He teaches FAST Defense and FAST Combatives, which is some of the best self-defense training ordinary civilians can get on a short-term training basis (weekend seminar).

His contact Info / website:
http://fastcombatives.com/index.php?option=com_contact&Itemid=3

I personally know from hands-on experience that taking your wife (and yourself for that matter) to a FAST self-defense seminar will do light years more good for her in the long run than just buying her a flashlight for "blinding muggers". Take the money you would spend on a nice new SureFire and take her to a seminar.

If you aren't close to Dik, he will guide you to someone over there that is good... you can trust his advice he's a really good person who know his stuff, and you can bet your life on it, literally. Be careful entering into the world of self-defense training, most of the stuff out there is garbage, and too many salesman with inflated promises will sell you the equivalent of snake-oil.

If you aren't going to take her to a FAST Defense / Combatives seminar, then pick up a copy of "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker. One of the best books you can invest your time reading on this subject, and it costs 1/10th of a SureFire.


----------



## DM51 (Jan 30, 2010)

I have removed a substantial number of off-topic posts and re-opened this thread, in the hope that it may continue. This is conditional on members observing what I posted here:



DM51 said:


> ... The problem with threads like this is twofold: first, they rapidly head off-topic and into discussion of violence (guns, knives, how best to cause gruesome injuries etc); and second, because there is a tendency to foster the ill-advised notion that by carrying a "blinding" flashlight, a person will be able to defend him/herself from an attacker...
> 
> ... *Let's see if we can bring this thread around by putting an end to the off-topic element of this, and by suggesting other more sensible courses of action *


So... please would members stay on topic from now on.


----------



## ducat (Jan 30, 2010)

StoppaRed.

Legal in the UK.

Google it.


Steve.


----------



## DM51 (Jan 30, 2010)

That post by ducat will be of great interest to residents of the UK and other countries where the carrying of some items is strictly controlled.

It's worth drawing attention to his earlier post about this product:



ducat said:


> There IS a legal self defence spray available for civilian use in the UK.
> Its made by MACE in the USA and is called StoppaRed.
> 
> Its a ballistic marker dye that when fired gives someone an almighty smack in the face and then instantly foams up, getting in the eyes, nose and mouth.
> ...


----------



## yalskey (Jan 30, 2010)

Moderator DM:

I know I'm (and maybe others too) are having trouble distiguishing what constitutes an off-topic (thread-closing) type post/reply and what's ok. That could possibly be part of the problem here.

Is it because some of the posts talk nothing really about flashlights and more about thwarting violence? Or is it because the conversation evolves to other / more generalized topics than what the original post was asking? Or maybe some other reason, or all of the above?

I see you did not delete my posts, which I would say are guilty (with good intentions, no less) of both of the reasons above.

Maybe it's unclear what "the rules" are and that's why people are posting what they are. I've been active here for 3.5 years and and still can't quite understand what the problem is exactly. There doesn't seem to be any trolling or blantent rule violations going on, so I'm kind of confused.

Thanks, and sorry this post is off-topic.


----------



## Justin Case (Jan 30, 2010)

The priorities of survival are 1) mental awareness, 2) tactics, 3) skill, and last equipment. Note where the flashlight sits in the list of priorities. #4 in isolation IMO is a waste of time. Just #1 in isolation can help to avoid many jams before they become unmanageable, and I would work on that. #1 and #2, combined with a flashlight, even if you don't have a lot of skill using it, can be very effective. Ideally, you address all aspects of the priorities of survival.

See Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense.

If you still want a flashlight, I would get any good tailcap button controlled, single mode light with at least 100 lumens and a good hot spot plus spill beam pattern. It's the hot spot that is the key. You also don't want a hot spot that is too narrow. You need some leeway to hit the face flush with the beam even if the target is moving.


----------



## DM51 (Jan 30, 2010)

Thanks for your post, yalskey. I’ll try to explain how I see it.

Self-protection (and protecting one’s family and friends) is a matter that is obviously of great interest to members. That’s why we try to keep threads like this open wherever possible. However:

This is a family-oriented forum, so any discussion of violent behavior, use of weapons, causing injuries to people (etc., etc.) is out of place. That should go to the Underground or elsewhere.

It is irresponsible for anyone to encourage members to think that carrying a flashlight is the answer to their concerns. *IF* the light can be deployed quickly (and that is a big if), it may briefly dazzle an offender. In the last resort, it may serve as a blunt or sharp instrument. That is about as far as it goes.

Attackers come in all shapes, sizes, and dispositions. It would be futile to make any general pronouncement about the effectiveness of a flashlight being deployed against any of them. To say that this or that light is the answer is irresponsible, as this could just encourage a false sense of security.

All we as CPF staff can do here is try to ensure that discussion stays on topic for this forum. We can also point out where posts are unwise or offer bad advice, but that is really a matter for members themselves. 

It is a difficult problem (as we have seen here, with ~16 posts deleted so far) to keep track of a thread like this and to ensure it remains within the rules. The discussion will in many cases belong elsewhere, perhaps on self-defense oriented websites. But we’ll leave it open here for the time being – as long as posts are sensible and remain within the rules.


----------



## yalskey (Jan 30, 2010)

Thank you for your reply DM51... I understand now.

I would like to commend you on working in the best interests of the users here. Enforcing a level of quality (i.e. not allowing any old shmuck to irresponsibly give poor, ultimately antithetical advice) serves not only the original poster well, but also the other readers of this thread. It's good to know that this is not a festering ground for pseudo-wise advice, misinformation, and other b.s.

But you are right, the moderators can't catch everything, and shouldn't have to. It's up to us users to govern the quality of these threads because we are the primary contributors to it. However, it is nice to have a "guardrail" (moderator) to keep us from driving off the road too much 

So bottom line is this... when giving self-defense advice, be very careful (similar to how a medical doctor behaves) in what you prescribe to solve the problem / answer the question at hand. People may use that advice and bank their safety on it. So before just giving a flip, off-the-cuff gut reaction post that just says something like "well, buy a flashlight with a gun mounted to it," know that some responsibility / accountability / due diligence needs to be exercised.

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now. Sorry to be so off topic... but if anything else, this thread was a learning experience for me, and hopefully others as well.


----------



## rickypanecatyl (Jan 30, 2010)

Yalsky - was it you that mentioned good self defense has several layers to it? I absolutely agree with you!

Maybe the most "on topic" answer "assumes" the OP knows that, has equipped his wife with other knowledge and training and here on CPF he is asking the one small part of his question which is which light do you think would fit best in my wifes arsenol of training and knowledge. From that point we would just him suggestions of different lights.

But we care!

and 1.) We want to make sure the OP doesn't have a false sense of security in his flashlight and
2.) Even if he is well informed of what the best flashlight can and can not do, thousands of other people will be reading this thread with similar questions in their minds and we don't want to give them a false sense of security.

Of course I'm reading this after DM51 has cleaned up the "bad stuff" but I think there has been some excellent advise and am glad to see people caring enough to mention, "now wait a minute ... this surefire wouldn't be the only thing between your wife and the bad guys would it?"


----------



## Eagleout (Jan 30, 2010)

*Link deleted*


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Jan 30, 2010)

Not sure that's what DM51 had in mind ... Eagleout.

Did you read the previous posts by DM51 ? ..... you should .


----------



## Eagleout (Jan 30, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> Not sure that's what DM51 had in mind ... Eagleout.
> 
> Did you read the previous posts by DM51 ? ..... you should .



Yep. Retracted post. Sorry.


----------



## jimbo231 (Jan 30, 2010)

jorn said:


> The sun has 100000 lux. A edc flashlight has lets say 3000-10000 lux. Do you get "stunned" looking at the sun? . With any ambient light a flashlight would be rubbish for self defense, except a 6d mag lite. No mugger would respect your "blinding" edc light. If you flash him, he would prob steal your flashlight too.The mugger would be better armed and more prepared than you (only the mugger knows that you're going to be robbed before it happens). If not better armed, he will be way bigger than his victims. You dont see a tiny dude try to go up agains a big dude unarmed.
> 
> Buy her some nice running shoes. (women love shoes so its a win-win situation) I have mentioned it before here on cpf in a similar tread, and still think it's the best advice i can give.


 

If you looked at the sun at night you wouldn't be able to see for a while. But thats not possible. What about the eagletac t100c2? 12000 lux on high and you can be sure its on high because its done by turning the head so you can leave it there and not worry about other types that have to remember the mode. And it's only $46 and not too big.


----------



## Skyeye (Jan 30, 2010)

Using a flashlight for any type of self-defense is preposterous! Your bare hands are more a deterrent. *[Remainder of post deleted as off topic. - DM51]*


----------



## Warp (Jan 30, 2010)

I would like to mention that, IMO, the mods have done an outstanding job with this thead. I have followed it, missing posts and all, and am very happy with the balance. Some of the other forums I visit have mods that get VERY heavy handed and all kinds of posts just vanish. I was expecting the same to happen here but, when I looked back, none of my posts were altered or removed. I was pleasantly surprised. And the thread is still open!

Keep up the good work.




Skyeye said:


> Using a flashlight for any type of self-defense is preposterous! Your bare hands are more a deterrent. You need to learn some moves,carry a blade or better still get a concealed carry permit and a decent sidearm.


 

Carry a knife and a handgun...legally...in the UK?

What reality are you living in?

BTW: The OP was supposedly asking a question about a light for his wife, not himeslf.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Jan 30, 2010)

Read the opening post - read the entire thread - consider his location and restrictive laws. (in the UK)

Reconsider your replies ......

DM51 is going to start suspending those who don't follow his guidelines ... he did warn !


I think the thread title should be edited - it's like chum in the ocean waters, and Bait for suspention .


----------



## sabre7 (Jan 30, 2010)

Street self defense, fending off muggers, etc can by its nature be a very ugly, nasty, violent, and un-politically correct business. The preposterous notion of a "mugger blinding torch" was long ago addressed in this thread, and since other posters risk running afoul of forum rules with strict moderator oversight to further discuss this topic in itself suggests the OP would best be advised to seek suggestions about self defense and tactics elsewhere. Google may be a good place to start to find other forums that thrive on the subject.


----------



## grunscga (Jan 30, 2010)

A lot of you guys are concentrating on the "terminal phase" of a mugging, where the bad guy(s) have selected his/their target and are attacking with force. Of course a flashlight is not going to affect anything by the time it gets to actual fisticuffs (heh, that sounds so civilized). I don't think that's the point of this exercise, though.

Now, let me preface this by saying I'm an american that has never been to the UK, so I don't know if this applies over there. However, on this side of the pond, muggers have to size up potential targets, because there is a small but real possibility that selecting the wrong target is the last mistake they'll ever make. There is usually a period of approach where they determine if their target is likely to fight back, and if they think that's the case, said bad guy(s) will usually back off and pick somebody else. This is the one area where a bright flashlight can be helpful. Not so much because it blinds or incapacitates, but because it acts as a clear signal that says "You've lost the element of surprise--I see you, and I suspect you're up to no good. Now go pick on somebody else that's concentrating on playing with their iPod or something." All in the click of a switch. 

Again, muggers in the UK may not have to do any of this, because (as someone else pointed out) the UK has gone beyond banning weapons and actually banned self-defense. However, operating on the assumption that evil is mostly the same the world over, the question becomes, what light will the OP's wife actually carry and use? 

I still recommend something small, simple, and useful in everyday situations (meaning 2 easily-accessible modes). If she's anything like the women in the US, she won't want to carry anything that is only a "weapon", but if it's generally useful, won't mind carrying it at all, even if it eventually becomes useful in telling some guy to shove off.


----------



## Warp (Jan 31, 2010)

grunscga said:


> A lot of you guys are concentrating on the "terminal phase" of a mugging, where the bad guy(s) have selected his/their target and are attacking with force. Of course a flashlight is not going to affect anything by the time it gets to actual fisticuffs (heh, that sounds so civilized). I don't think that's the point of this exercise, though.
> 
> Now, let me preface this by saying I'm an american that has never been to the UK, so I don't know if this applies over there. However, on this side of the pond, muggers have to size up potential targets, because there is a small but real possibility that selecting the wrong target is the last mistake they'll ever make. There is usually a period of approach where they determine if their target is likely to fight back, and if they think that's the case, said bad guy(s) will usually back off and pick somebody else. This is the one area where a bright flashlight can be helpful. Not so much because it blinds or incapacitates, but because it acts as a clear signal that says "You've lost the element of surprise--I see you, and I suspect you're up to no good. Now go pick on somebody else that's concentrating on playing with their iPod or something." All in the click of a switch.
> 
> ...


 


That all assumes that the woman SEES the guy and he is, for whatever reason, deterred by a woman with a flashlight.



I think the Olight M20 R2 would work pretty well.


----------



## SureAddicted (Jan 31, 2010)

Using mace in the UK falls under the firearms act, so yes it's illegal to buy and use.
I should add that so is the use of knives, guns, batons etc.
The OP only has 2 choices, either move to another country, or get your wife some PROPER self defense lessons. A mugger usually takes it's victim by surprise, I wont go into it to much but the only way out of that kind of situation is hand to hand combat. And no, I'm not talking about getting into fisticuffs, but there are techniques for women that are very effective.


----------



## grunscga (Jan 31, 2010)

Warp said:


> That all assumes that the woman SEES the guy and he is, for whatever reason, deterred by a woman with a flashlight.



Yes, if she's walking down the street with her face jammed in her iPod and zero situational awareness, then that makes her one of those "others" I mentioned, and no tool is going to help her. I'm making the assumption that this thread came up because there was enough situational awareness to be worried, which is a good start.

As for whether or not the guy is deterred, well, I can't answer that for the UK. The various videos I've seen online show a criminal population that seems completely unafraid of the general public (and occasionally the police), so it's possible that they don't care about retaining the element of surprise. Here in the US (well, away from the coasts, anyway), a woman paying attention and pointing a flashlight at your face as you approach is likely entirely capable of ruining your whole day should you decide to pose a threat. Or at least, the likelihood is high enough that it's in Mr. Mugger's best interest to mumble something about the time and scuttle away.



SureAddicted said:


> A mugger usually takes it's victim by surprise, I wont go into it to much but the only way out of that kind of situation is hand to hand combat.



No, the only way out of that kind of situation is to not get into it in the first place. There are 3 requirements for that:


Be aware of what's going on around you (discussion not relevant to this board).
Be able to communicate to potential bad guy(s) that you know they are there and they no longer have the element of surprise (flashlights work for this; discussion on which ones is relevant).
Said bad guy needs to actually care about losing the element of surprise (I can't answer this for the UK).


----------



## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 31, 2010)

Warp said:


> That all assumes that the woman SEES the guy and he is, for whatever reason, deterred by a woman with a flashlight.


I haven't a clue whether the following that I write is within the bounds of the rules or not but I think it might be ok so anyway, I have the following to add to my first post on this subject where I said that I cannot fathom someone relying on a light to protect them:

1. A "mugger" generally exists in an urban type area and will surely not attack in conditions where it is totally dark and he can't see his victim. There will likely be some low light afforded by streetlight or similar even if that light is a long way away so he will surely have at least a dim view of his "target"

2. A Quark 2 x 123 turbo has supposedly 230 lumens or thereabouts.

3. I decided to test for myself this theory about blinding light.

4. I chose my hallway. It's dim but not so dark that I can't see the "victim" (in this case my wife) who held in her hands my Quark Turbo set on max and was given instructions that when I approached her she was to shine it directly in my eyes and keep it there.

5. I approached my wife with a view to "attacking" her and she used the torch. I grabbed her hand to remove the threat of the "illumination weapon" (I chose to only grab rather than smash it away as I would ordinarily choose because I didn't want to hurt my wife).

6. The torch light actually gave me the precise target to aim for at when trying to disable the light source (obviously). It didn't take long.

7. While the light was upon my eyes I could not see my "victim" (wife). 

8. As soon as I forced the light away I saw a large spot in my vision but was still able to look through it to see clearly my "victim's" head. I'm still seeing the spots now as I type but am also still able to see "through" them to see my words.

9. Sorry, but my conclusion is that if I'm mugging you then the lumens of a handbag sized light at close quarters aren't going to stop me. You'll actually need to know how to fight or else perhaps be retreating fast out of reach.

PS And just before pressing "submit" on this post, I also tried the whole scenario again on stobe and that had even less "blinding" effect.


----------



## SureAddicted (Jan 31, 2010)

grunscga said:


> No, the only way out of that kind of situation is to not get into it in the first place. There are 3 requirements for that:
> 
> 
> Be aware of what's going on around you (discussion not relevant to this board).
> ...



That's very true, but sometimes it can't be avoided, and believe it or not muggings sometimes do happen when other people are around, crowded places etc.
Using this or using that has it's drawbacks. For starter's, in that kind of situation your going to be nervous and jittery. Remembering where you had the light (handbag or onself), deploying it, pointing it at the subject and activating it, it's all easier said than done. And what if the mugger disabled her arms because he didn't want her reaching for anything? You have to think like a mugger to have an advantage.


----------



## mikes1 (Jan 31, 2010)

There are some very interesting ideas and information in this thread; I would also like to say well done to DM51 for his very sensible attitude 
This is not the kind of thread I would normally post in but as a train driver it has struck a chord and I am very aware of the undesirables that tend to congregate at train stations.
I should say I know nothing about self defence
At work I carry a Sure Fire C2 with a Moddoo triple XP-E drop in. Do I think this will save me from a surprise attacker? of course not but if I go in to a dark area I will be able to see what’s going on and may be avoid any potential hazard.
You must be better of with a light than without one but don’t consider it as any sort of a defensive weapon.
As for what light I think a Ra clicky would fit the bill nicely

Mike


----------



## jk037 (Jan 31, 2010)

If you and your mrs are concerned about her safety then surely the obvious solution is to avoid being in certain places at times when she feels at risk?

Is there any way she could catch an earlier train to avoid being at the railway station after dark? (If her working hours are part of the problem then it would be wise for her to explain her concerns to her employer)
Is it a small, unmanned, quiet, poorly-lit station and would it be feasible for her to go to a bigger, busier and properly-staffed station?
Could you wait for her on the platform so that she isn't left in this place on her own?
My own girlfriend also comes to see me via the train; my local station is about 5 mins from my house but as it's tiny, unstaffed and poorly-lit we agreed that, unless it's broad daylight and the station is likely to be busy, she should go to the nearest major station in Doncaster. Which means about 30 mins drive for me to pick her up, but she's much safer this way and so it's worth the slight inconvenience.

Even with all the flashlights and self-defence courses in the world I wouldn't rate most people's chances against a determined and desperate mugger who really doesn't give a damn about any consequences of his actions.

_(I had mentioned all the above previously, but my entire post got deleted as below my sensible suggestions I'd made the mistake of attempting to inject a little humour into the thread - lesson learned, that's the last time I try that on CPF! :shakehead)_


----------



## SoCalMan (Jan 31, 2010)

My conclusions thus far after reading these posts are:

1. Situational awareness is critical. Be attentive to your surroundings at all times.
2. If you are uncomfortable for your safety, you probably have a good reason so follow your instincts at all times. It's always best to avoid such areas from the start, if possible. 
3. Flashlights are meant to illuminate dark places. When in such an area, *by all means use it*. In that regard, the light may also help prevent the element of surprise from occurring. 
4. A "blinding" light to the eyes could/will buy a _moment_ of time, and if so, be prepared to follow a "plan B" immediately.


----------



## Justin Case (Jan 31, 2010)

Yes, if the attacker is already powered up and has the advantage because he grabbed you and is thus probably in position to pound you, then deploying some tool at that point is problematical. Is this really any surprise? I don't see this as a valid argument against carrying defensive tools. What it does argue for is better awareness, #1 on the priorities of survival.

Some of the tests described above are rather artificial. The "attacker" already knows what is going to happen (the defender is going to deploy a flashlight at close distance) and has already formulated a response plan (close the gap further and attempt a disarm). Well, how can you have a specific Orient, Decide, and Act branch all ready to go in your scenario when you haven't even Observed anything yet to make a decision branch? That's frankly a cheat.

The light is deployed by surprise. It is preferably used at longer distances -- e.g., outside of your reactionary gap. The defender also moves to take advantage of the available time hopefully given by the surprise (OODA loop delay for the attacker). The concept is to continually reset the opponent's OODA loop by staying ahead of him so that he never gets out of the Observe step.

If you were unable to deploy the light in the desired tactical fashion, well then you will probably need a Plan B. It's desirable to have a Plan B in any case. Immediately move off the line of force at a minimum. Don't use your light and stay anchored in place waiting to get run over by the freight train.

Re: hard cases with nothing to lose. Sure, you're in for a bad day at the office if you run into someone like that. So what? Your options are the same -- defend and hopefully prevail, submit and almost certainly lose.

I would suggest getting a good flashlight like a SureFire 6P with Malkoff M60 or other similar single mode tailcap switching light with a good sized and bright hot spot, having the light easily available, staying aware so that you can deploy the light in a tactically sound fashion, and getting some basic seminar-style unarmed combatives training involving simple and easy to remember gross motor movements and awareness drills.

Of course, avoidance is desirable. But crime happens. If the victims knew they were going to be victimized, they probably would have chosen to be elsewhere.

The goal is disengagement with the least negative impact to your life -- legal, moral, ethical, and health.


----------



## Justin Case (Jan 31, 2010)

SoCalMan said:


> My conclusions thus far after reading these posts are:
> 
> 1. Situational awareness is critical. Be attentive to your surroundings at all times.
> 2. If you are uncomfortable for your safety, you probably have a good reason so follow your instincts at all times. It's always best to avoid such areas from the start, if possible.
> ...



Very well summarized. In a nutshell, your #2 covers DeBecker's book "The Gift of Fear", which was previously mentioned.


----------



## TITAN1833 (Jan 31, 2010)

My advice to the OP I'd be more inclined to use a 30/60 lumen floody light coupled with StoppaRed  and not a high powered one :thumbsup:

A flood light will light up the whole target and less likely to harm your own vision at night also you will be able to see if he's carrying a sharp much more easily.

the thing with high powered lights is any thing white i.e perps white shirt in the vicinity will more often bounce the light back into your eyes,and when you turn it off your eyes will have to readjust to the night again.

Lastly if you feel uneasy walking about at night make sure the light and stoppaRed are in hand and not deep inside a bag :twothumbs

Train your mind and hands to go to the items you may need to use, until it becomes second nature,stay safe :twothumbs


----------



## seale_navy (Jan 31, 2010)

As I was in the UK last year and spend almost a year there, safety at night was a concern too.. like going back home from a friend place.

first is vigilance on the surrounding... like some drunk guy on the street.. one has to be observant like watch his moves.. prepare for an attack.

I always carried a flashlight when i walk at night.. The torch is always in my hand.. ready to blast if anything were to happen. In the UK, flashlight and pepper spray is all we got...

Its better than not having anything.. I am sure the OP considered other safety measure like going for self defense class and etc.. but with all that circumstances taking into account, a torch is his wife best chance so to speak... its a deterrent item nevertheless, it just deters someone from harming.. but it doesnt mean they wont harm u...


----------



## Bronco (Jan 31, 2010)

ducat said:


> There IS a legal self defence spray available for civilian use in the UK.
> Its made by MACE in the USA and is called StoppaRed.
> 
> Its a ballistic marker dye that when fired gives someone an almighty smack in the face and then instantly foams up, getting in the eyes, nose and mouth.
> As its a permanant dye it takes ages to wash off, and leaves assailants very red-faced and easy to find.



Are we sure this StoppaRed has actually passed any legal test cases yet in Britain? I would hate for the OP's wife to become the legal guinea pig for some less than thoroughly vetted personal self defense scheme that could easily be construed as seeking to circumvent the spirit, if not the letter, of British law. 

Let's consider for a moment the humiliation that any self respecting rapist or mugger would be forced to endure at the hands of his peers should he end up with a face dyed red for several days as a consequence of a botched rape attempt. The inflicting of such emotional trauma on a legitimate career rapist is clearly not in keeping with the foundations of English law which demand that the criminal be protected at all costs. PTSD, loss of self esteem and clinical depression are other potential longer term ramifications of this action that could eventually demand appropriate legal recourse. The OP's wife could easily be subjecting herself to years of expensive litigation by taking any course of action that goes beyond full submission.

I might suggest having the OP's wife contact the track coach at the local university. Serious training at distances between 400 and 800 meters should give her a decent chance of making an escape to a safe location. Make absolutely sure, however, that she first researches any potential liability she may be subjected to if the rapist is injured while trying to chase her.


----------



## carrot (Jan 31, 2010)

The first part of proper self defense is awareness. Using a bright light to sweep questionable areas is probably the most important use of a flashlight. Yes, a flashlight can blind an attacker temporarily and give you the upper hand, but only after the first tier of self defense (proper awareness) fails and you now have to engage (fight) your attacker.

To that end, I recommend a light such as the Surefire LX2, Surefire 6P + Malkoff M60, or the Quark Turbo 123. 

I didn't bother reading any of the posts as self defense threads hardly interest me but I'm sure there is both good and bad advice provided here.


----------



## Warp (Jan 31, 2010)

I think we need to stop using the word "blind".


These lights are not going to "blind" anybody. I know this firsthand.


----------



## ducat (Jan 31, 2010)

Bronco, love it!

Seriously, StoppaRed has been used many times in the UK, and to date, as far as I am aware, NOBODY has been prosecuted for using it correctly.

Theres a youtube video of a guy catching one full in the face, worth a look if you doubt its efficiency!:thumbsup:


----------



## Bronco (Jan 31, 2010)

ducat said:


> Bronco, love it!
> 
> Seriously, StoppaRed has been used many times in the UK, and to date, as far as I am aware, NOBODY has been prosecuted for using it correctly.



I will gladly take your word for this.  It's a good thing to hear. 

I'm sure full implementation of the Castle Doctrine can't be far off now.


----------



## ducat (Jan 31, 2010)

Castle doctrine? Unsure what that means. All I want is for my countrymen to be able to defend themselves without being prosecuted by a system which favours the crook. It's slowly coming around with some judges actually demonstrating common sense, but I think its still going to be a long haul.

I loved your post by the way. There's a common misconception in this country that our American cousins don't get irony. You've certainly put that one to bed! Thanks for giving an old man a real belly laugh!

God bless, keep safe.

Steve.


----------



## Justin Case (Jan 31, 2010)

In the UK, where on the force continuum is StoppaRed?


----------



## ducat (Jan 31, 2010)

Their website is here.

http://www.stoppared.com/

Hope that helps.


----------



## Chris H (Jan 31, 2010)

Just thought I would mention as we are on the subject...

I live in North Wales in the UK and often go out jogging round the country lanes at around midnight! (I know this seems strange but it is the only time to myself with working long hours and having a young family and it is so peaceful - proper 'me time') Last September I was coming to the end of my jog and saw a car parked up blocking the really narrow lane which I was on. It saw me and drove off which I obviously thought was suspicious. I took the reg number and carried on jogging and when I rounded the corner, 3 guys in hoods and balaclavas came out of a driveway to my right and blocked my way. One came towards me and started swearing at me and the other two held back. 
In my right hand as per usual was my eagletac M2XC4 *BUT* set to low as this is all I had been using when jogging. I'm not a small bloke so was prepared to defend myself using my torch however they all ran off back down the lane towards the car that I had seen. I ran down the road and knocked at the first house with its lights still on and called the police.
My point is this (after all that!) I had an extremely bright torch in my hand which could have been used to momentarily dazzle them but as it was set to low it was rendered useless (as I didn't want to move and turn the dial and antagonise them) so be aware if this is the reason you have a torch then please make sure it is ready instantly to fulfill its purpose and you know its UI back to front.
By the way, one of the officers who attended was so impressed with a flashlight that could be so bright, he took down this very forum as somewhere to visit!
Cheers
Chris


----------



## Warp (Jan 31, 2010)

ducat said:


> Castle doctrine? Unsure what that means.


 
Since you are in the UK you don't need to know what it means, unfortunately.

It is a catch phrase used to describe some state laws over here in the US. Traditionally almost every state in the US allows a person to use whatever force is reasonable given the circumstances, up to and including deadly force, in defense while in their domicile (castle). Also traditionally many states, especially in the past, required citizens to retreat, if possible, when faced with an attack or assault while in public. 

This was a questionable law in the opinion of many because, after all, why should a regular person who is breaking no laws and threatening/harming nobody be legally forced to retreat when confronted by a criminal?

Somewhat recently several states converted and now have "stand your ground" laws or "castle doctrine". With these laws a person is not required to retreat before responding with reasonable froce....much like if you were in your home.


----------



## Justin Case (Jan 31, 2010)

It appears you can use StoppaRed before soft hands, which is pretty early in the game.


----------



## J_C (Feb 1, 2010)

This topic is a joke, give up, if you are in an area where there is this significant a danger it is disservice to you to pretend a flashlight will make a difference.

What does a really bright or aggressive strobe do really? It scares animals, but pisses off humans.

Sorry but this topic is crazy (and I apologize that I did not read all prior replies), a flashlight is an illumination tool, at BEST it only causes a moment of confusion, but having a moment does little if you don't have some other plan. In other words, it has no use to deter or prevent street robbers/etc.

While I value the utility of a good light and have never done such criminal things, if you tried to deter me and I was out to rob or do harm, such a light is a target, not in any way beneficial to you. LACK of light can be a good thing when you are not the aggressor.


----------



## DM51 (Feb 1, 2010)

jk037 said:


> _my entire [previous] post got deleted as below my sensible suggestions I'd made the mistake of attempting to inject a little humour into the thread _


The injection of humor into a serious topic can fall flat or even backfire. If an entire post is humorous, it may work; but juxtaposing serious with non-serious content in the same post is less likely to succeed.


Bronco said:


> Let's consider for a moment the humiliation that any self respecting rapist or mugger would be forced to endure at the hands of his peers should he end up with a face dyed red for several days as a consequence of a botched rape attempt. The inflicting of such emotional trauma on a legitimate career rapist is clearly not in keeping with the foundations of English law which demand that the criminal be protected at all costs. PTSD, loss of self esteem and clinical depression are other potential longer term ramifications of this action that could eventually demand appropriate legal recourse. The OP's wife could easily be subjecting herself to years of expensive litigation by taking any course of action that goes beyond full submission.


Irony can work, as in this^^ good example 

---------------

I'm not sure there is much more to be said on this topic; but we'll leave it open a while longer just in case. 

Members should continue to bear in mind that this is a flashlight forum, for discussions about flashlights, rather than a one for discussions about self-defense. This discussion has tended to veer off-topic into the realm of self-defense, primarily because there is in reality only a marginal role for flashlights in most self-defense situations. 



J_C said:


> if there is this significant a danger it is disservice to you to pretend a flashlight will make a difference.


The thread is tending to this overall viewpoint, which I think sums up what many other members have said.


----------



## Jay R (Feb 1, 2010)

I think that a lot of the posts state that a flashlight isn’t going to be any use for protecting yourself from a mugger which may be true but I think that’s missing the point. I doubt that the lady in question would be relying solely on a bright light to protect herself. I guess it would be used along with fast feet, an attack alarm, a loud scream, etc.. In this case, I believe that it would be better than nothing.
 Imagine this situation which is more realistic, especially in England. She is walking home and gets accosted by a drunk for whatever reason. She has in her hand a Lumapower Incedio set to come on at high. A blast 240 lumens in the drunks eyes will certainly make him fall back long enough for her to run.
 How about this. She is walking down a dark street and suspects that the man behind is following her, she turns around and lights him up. If he is a mugger, chances are he’s now going to think twice about attacking her.
 Perhaps she has to walk down a dark alleyway and there are rubbish bins, boxes, lots of dark shadows… The ability to light up the shadows so that she can see there is nobody ‘lying in wait’ will give her peace of mind.
 As the post before said, they are good against animals and a moments distraction for people ( Both I have experience of.) but sometimes a moments distraction is all you need.
 I say, give here a small 240 lumen light for her to carry in her hand. Maybe it will help a bit. Running shoes and fast reflexes wouldn’t do any harm either.


----------



## jsholli (Feb 1, 2010)

yalskey said:


> Of course, let me speak to the OP. Although I thought I did a pretty good job laying out my overall stance in my couple of posts, maybe I need to be more direct in addressing the OP.
> 
> Will buying your wife a really good flashlight make her safer? Well, if that's all you do, than no, it will probably make her less safe due to the false sense of security it instills and the inherent risks that are introduced when a "weapon" is introduced into the scenario.
> 
> ...


I have a lot of respect for yalskey's and Justin Case's remarks.

And having read most of this thread, I feel for the OP not being able to better protect his family due to the EU laws...so, the best advise I can offer would be the Jetbeam M1X. It may be pushing the size requirements [may blow 'em out of the water] but it is smaller than a 3D mag lite. I normally don't even bother adding my thoughts to these threads, but I actually have some experience with the M1X...when 'playing' with the light, I accidentally pushed the head enough to engage the max mode resulting in my disorientation and imbalance. Granted, I wasn't expecting anything as I fear an attacker would be, but this was the first and only light that actually stunned me. Also, the head is fairly robust and may be another advantage of this model.


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 1, 2010)

TITAN1833 said:


> My advice to the OP I'd be more inclined to use a 30/60 lumen floody light coupled with StoppaRed  and not a high powered one :thumbsup:


 
I've tested the 30 lumen SureFire 3P on the mat against multiple mock attackers and it is too weak to work well. And the 3P is not floody. A flood beam would further dissipate the intensity you need to interrupt the attacker's Observe step. I've also tested a floody 60 lumen light -- the original SureFire L4. Also inadequate intensity.

The minimum I would suggest is the original 60 lumen, incandescent SureFire 6P.


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 1, 2010)

J_C said:


> This topic is a joke, give up, if you are in an area where there is this significant a danger it is disservice to you to pretend a flashlight will make a difference.
> 
> What does a really bright or aggressive strobe do really? It scares animals, but pisses off humans.
> 
> ...


 
You've already been targeted as a potential victim without the flashlight playing any role. What you want to do now is to "fail" the victim interview process. This is a "job" that you don't want.

Against most low level crims, you need to look like enough of a problem that the crim will simply interview someone else that looks easier to victimize. The low level crim is low on the food chain and any injury to him will subject him to victimization. It isn't worth it to deal with a problem "victim" when the pickings are ripe for plenty of other softer targets.

If you are a more determined mugger, the defender's responses aren't going to differ. The defender always responds with equal force. If the light flash doesn't deter the mugger and the mugger continues to close the gap, it's time for Plan B, which might require hard hands. But that doesn't diminish the value of using the flashlight initially.

Just about everyone has already said that a flashlight as magic talisman isn't going to work, and have suggested some training or at least a plan to complement the flashlight. I also don't think anyone is suggesting that you are automatically safe in some inherently dangerous area just because you have a flashlight.

When to use the light is part of tactics. Just because you have the flashlight doesn't mean you have to use it. If concealment in darkness is an advantage, just keep the light off. But you have the light if you need the sudden, bright illumination.

Many things can aggravate a situation, especially if used improperly and/or poorly timed. That can include StoppaRed, pepper spray (e.g., for use in the United States, not the UK), or a flashlight. If the opponent is already powered up and mentally driven to complete his task regardless of what happens next, guess what? He'll probably accomplish that task and you probably will just enrage him further. If you interrupt his OODA loop before he reaches that decision point, you can short-circuit his intentions. That's why something like StoppaRed seems to be appropriate for use *before* soft hands, as would a flashlight. Photon pressure, no matter how bright your flashlight is, probably won't help in a hard hands situation in deflecting a punch.

Trainers see this all the time in pepper spray class. If the student is determined and prepared, he can take a face full of the hottest spray and drive on -- execute various defensive tactics, draw and shoot, whatever. The powered-up student won't even cough from inhaling any spray. In contrast, student bystanders often cough from the side spray contamination because of the irritation to the mucus membranes. If you are caught by surprise, then a mere "BOO" can make you jump and cause a relatively long pause (in terms of the timescale for self defense) in your reactions. I've seen people in class cover 7 yds in about 1.2 sec. So you can create a sizable gap very quickly.


----------



## Warp (Feb 1, 2010)

Jay R said:


> I think that a lot of the posts state that a flashlight isn’t going to be any use for protecting yourself from a mugger which may be true but I think that’s missing the point. I doubt that the lady in question would be relying solely on a bright light to protect herself. *I guess it would be used along with fast feet, an attack alarm, a loud scream, etc*.. In this case, I believe that it would be better than nothing.
> Imagine this situation which is more realistic, especially in England. She is walking home and gets accosted by a drunk for whatever reason. She has in her hand a Lumapower Incedio set to come on at high. A blast 240 lumens in the drunks eyes will certainly make him fall back long enough for her to run.
> How about this. She is walking down a dark street and suspects that the man behind is following her, she turns around and lights him up. If he is a mugger, chances are he’s now going to think twice about attacking her.
> Perhaps she has to walk down a dark alleyway and there are rubbish bins, boxes, lots of dark shadows… The ability to light up the shadows so that she can see there is nobody ‘lying in wait’ will give her peace of mind.
> ...


 



Screaming, using an attack alarm, etc, is nothing more than an attempt to pawn off the responsibility of personal safety on another person. Each individual is responsible for his/her own safety. It's the same way in the US and, well, everywhere else I am aware of. People need to be ready, willing and able to meet that responsibility themselves because unless there happens to be an officer of the law nearby they will likely be on their own.


Plus an experienced or knowledgeable mugger can stifle a scream in a hurry. Strike to the throat, knock the wind out, etc.



A flashlight is, at least, a step in the right direction.


----------



## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 1, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> I still can't fathom the idea that people think a torch can protect them, I really can't. Either you can fight or you can't...


Agreed. Blinding someone is only an advantage if it's immediately followed up by a hard punch to the jaw


----------



## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 1, 2010)

dougie said:


> Regrettably self defence in the UK will not allow you have anything on you which would or could be used as a weapon and that as a broad definition could be used to describe almost anything in a woman's handabg!


The way you describe it, even punching an assailant could get you in legal trouble. So what are you Brits supposed to do, just stand there and let yourselves get beat up and robbed?


----------



## Warp (Feb 1, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> The way you describe it, even punching an assailant could get you in legal trouble. So what are you Brits supposed to do, just stand there and let yourselves get beat up and robbed?


 

I don't think you want to know the honest answer to that question.


----------



## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 1, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> I haven't a clue whether the following that I write is within the bounds of the rules or not but I think it might be ok so anyway, I have the following to add to my first post on this subject where I said that I cannot fathom someone relying on a light to protect them:
> 
> 1. A "mugger" generally exists in an urban type area and will surely not attack in conditions where it is totally dark and he can't see his victim. There will likely be some low light afforded by streetlight or similar even if that light is a long way away so he will surely have at least a dim view of his "target"
> 
> ...


The thing with this is that you were obviously expecting to get blinded and were prepared for it. I think most people caught by surprise by a bright light would instinctively look away or make some move to protect their eyes, but that would only be a temporary advantage and the victim would need a "Step 2" plan of action rather than expecting the light alone to serve as a deterrent.


----------



## bullettproof (Feb 1, 2010)

Trying to blind someone for self defense is just going to **** them off.You have to have something else besides a flashlight to back you up.

I suggest this flashlight pkg very nice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D99NHb6B03s


----------



## Greg G (Feb 1, 2010)

Having a good bright light in a defensive situation cannot hurt. It is but one tool in the tool box.


----------



## J_C (Feb 1, 2010)

It can hurt, it is a moment in time you used to draw a flashlight instead of doing something else instead.


----------



## SureAddicted (Feb 1, 2010)

To all those who are recommending flashlights, what if the event occurred during the day under bright sunlight, also, the perpetrator would be probably wearing a disguise to hide his identity, which probably means he'd be wearing sunnies. You need to take all these facts into consideration, and stop providing people with a false sense of security.
The only thinig I can recommend other than sd lessons is stoppared, BUT, and only but if you train with it. When officers carry eqiupment, being a firearm, mace or baton, they usually train and become proficient with it. The same should be for the general public. Being able to judge how far the stoppared goop will throw, when to use it, when not to use it, being able to hold it under a stressful situation, etc etc etc.


----------



## Warp (Feb 1, 2010)

SureAddicted said:


> To all those who are recommending flashlights, what if the event occurred during the day under bright sunlight, also, the perpetrator would be probably wearing a disguise to hide his identity, which probably means he'd be wearing sunnies. You need to take all these facts into consideration, and stop providing people with a false sense of security.
> The only thinig I can recommend other than sd lessons is stoppared, BUT, and only but if you train with it. When officers carry eqiupment, being a firearm, mace or baton, they usually train and become proficient with it. The same should be for the general public. Being able to judge how far the stoppared goop will throw, when to use it, when not to use it, being able to hold it under a stressful situation, etc etc etc.


 

Hell, when police officers get trained for pepper spray they actually get sprayed with it.


In an idea situation anybody who carries pepper spray would get hit with before doing so. After all, it is entirely possible that it wil be taken and used against you or, if nothing else, you will suffer blowback or some other form of exposure. It is good to know what to expect and how to deal with it. It will also tell you a lot about how somebody you use it on will react.



<---Has taken a full hit from Sabre. That stuff is EVIL


----------



## SureAddicted (Feb 1, 2010)

Warp said:


> Hell, when police officers get trained for pepper spray they actually get sprayed with it.
> 
> 
> In an idea situation anybody who carries pepper spray would get hit with before doing so. After all, it is entirely possible that it wil be taken and used against you or, if nothing else, you will suffer blowback or some other form of exposure. It is good to know what to expect and how to deal with it. It will also tell you a lot about how somebody you use it on will react.
> ...



I wasn't referring to training to being sprayed with the stuff. I'm guessing the stoppared would propel out of the can with great force, no one expects that. Secondly, does it come out as a thin beam or wide spread beam, thirdly how far do you need to be from the bg to douse him in the goop?
You bought up a good point about it being entirely possible that it will be taken and used against you, that can apply to anything, knifes, guns, mace, batons etc. That's why I still stand by saying that taking sd lessons is your best bet.


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 1, 2010)

J_C said:


> It can hurt, it is a moment in time you used to draw a flashlight instead of doing something else instead.


 
No law of physics prevents you from drawing the light and moving at the same time. Or drawing the light while issuing a verbal command. Etc etc.

If you waited too long and inappropriately drew the light when you should have done something else like cover or deflect a blow, that's not the fault of the light. That's a training issue. Get training along with the light.

If the light is to be carried with a handbag, I'd probably get one that has an tall, skinny, outer pocket and then insert the light vertically into that pocket. This should help with rapid access. A flashlight clip might be useful to hold the light in place. Thus, something along the lines of a SureFire C2 Centurion with a Malkoff M60 could work well. If a slimmer light is needed, I'd consider a SureFire L4 with the Seoul P4 emitter (not the floodier Lux V). If the additional price is not a barrier, I'd get a Malkoff VME bezel for the L4 and load the light with a Malkoff M60.


----------



## Warp (Feb 1, 2010)

I'd be interested in reading some kind, any kind of response from the OP.


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 1, 2010)

SureAddicted said:


> To all those who are recommending flashlights, what if the event occurred during the day under bright sunlight, also, the perpetrator would be probably wearing a disguise to hide his identity, which probably means he'd be wearing sunnies. You need to take all these facts into consideration, and stop providing people with a false sense of security.


 
I don't see anyone who supports carrying a flashlight providing a false sense of security. In any case, if it is broad daylight and the opponent has sunglasses, so what. You are no worse off than if you didn't have a flashlight.


----------



## SureAddicted (Feb 1, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> I don't see anyone who supports carrying a flashlight providing a false sense of security. In any case, if it is broad daylight and the opponent has sunglasses, so what. You are no worse off than if you didn't have a flashlight.



Dude, you have totally misunderstood me. I'm only referring to those in this thread as using a flashlight to deter the bad guy in a sd situation, nothing more. A lot of attacks do happen during the day, and a flashlight in bright conditions renders it useless, and its technology so it can and will fail at some point.


----------



## fyrstormer (Feb 1, 2010)

Launch Mini said:


> Don't take this as advice, but just my opinion.
> I would think a woman walking down the street, parking lot etc, with a bright flashlight ON, would be very visible.
> I am guessing, a potential mugger, does not want to be seen. So by making oneself, very visible, you would be reducing your odds of confrontation.
> AND, if such a perpetrator did approach, and make you uncomfortable, a bright light to the face, a scream or loud "WHAT DO YOU WANT", would draw attention, again something the perp. does not want.
> ...


Let's not forget the placebo effect of having a bright flashlight at-the-ready, aka the Hitchhiker's Towel Effect. (go read Douglas Adams if you don't get it.) If someone's prepared enough to have a brighter-than-normal flashlight in their hand as soon as they step outside at night, who knows what else they have in their other hand? As has been stated before, if someone wants to attack _you_, they're going to attack you unless you can kill them first, but I think lots of the people who've said "a flashlight alone will do nothing or worse" are suffering a bit from Spotlight Syndrome -- unless you're in the line of work where crime bosses take out contracts on your life, the chances are overwhelmingly in your favor that someone thinking of mugging you doesn't actually give a damn who you are, and will be just as happy to mug someone else. If you look like you might actually have your s**t together, it's better for the mugger slink back into the shadows and wait for someone to come along who's_ obviously_ unprepared. It doesn't take a lot of risk on the mugger's end of things before it outweighs the benefit of hopefully getting some cash or jewelry. As yalskey said:



yalskey said:


> ...it's an obvious signal you are being aware of your surroundings, and thus it may decrease your victim selection attractiveness. Many impulsive-type criminals will just pick a better victim.


Exactly. Every little bit helps.

Not to mention, if you decide to run for it, it helps to be able to see where you're going at a full sprint so you don't fall victim to the classic horror-movie blunder where the pretty cheerleader trips and breaks her leg as the axe-wielding maniac is chasing her. If someone is chasing you, they have an instant advantage in the dark because you're going to let them know where all the obstacles are. You might as well be able to see them yourself.


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found (Feb 1, 2010)

Surefire on a 50 lumen light: said:


> enough to temporarily blind and disorient an aggressor by impairing his night-adapted vision.


 
Can we all just collectively blame Surefire for this myth and be done with it?


----------



## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 1, 2010)

On a related note, I once stopped for gas in a less than respectable part of town. I exited my vehicle, locked the door, and closed it and was immediately approached by a guy asking me if he could "borrow" some money. I kept my eye on him and reached down for my Quark AA on my belt but didn't draw it out, I just held my hand there figuring that at the very least it would give me some element of surprise if worst came to worst. The fellow immediately took a step back and said, "No, man, it ain't like that! It ain't like that!" Then he quickly turned and walked away. I'm guessing he thought I had a gun or something.


----------



## jorn (Feb 1, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> I don't see anyone who supports carrying a flashlight providing a false sense of security. In any case, if it is broad daylight and the opponent has sunglasses, so what. You are no worse off than if you didn't have a flashlight.



That may depend on how jumpy the mugger is.
You ask for her wallet, but when her hand comes up of the purse, you see a piece of anodized metal hiding in her hand. It might turn to worse.


----------



## Warp (Feb 1, 2010)

jorn said:


> That may depend on how jumpy the mugger is.
> You ask for her wallet, but when her hand comes up of the purse, you see a piece of anodized metal hiding in her hand. It might turn to worse.


 

How many muggers ask a woman to reach into her purse for the wallet?


----------



## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 1, 2010)

Warp said:


> How many muggers ask a woman to reach into her purse for the wallet?


I think somebody's been watching too many movies.


----------



## jorn (Feb 1, 2010)

well if the purse was jerked right from her, the flashlight would be out of the picture anyway. Someone has to reach for the flashlight to really use it in a self defense scenario, don't they?


----------



## collo (Feb 1, 2010)

Surely the safest usage is to already have the torch in your hand as you exit the train...


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 1, 2010)

jorn said:


> That may depend on how jumpy the mugger is.
> You ask for her wallet, but when her hand comes up of the purse, you see a piece of anodized metal hiding in her hand. It might turn to worse.


 
Wuda, cuda, shuda,.... Look, one can construct any imaginary scenario in which self-defense fails. What is your point? We know that nothing is guaranteed in life already.


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 1, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> On a related note, I once stopped for gas in a less than respectable part of town. I exited my vehicle, locked the door, and closed it and was immediately approached by a guy asking me if he could "borrow" some money. I kept my eye on him and reached down for my Quark AA on my belt but didn't draw it out, I just held my hand there figuring that at the very least it would give me some element of surprise if worst came to worst. The fellow immediately took a step back and said, "No, man, it ain't like that! It ain't like that!" Then he quickly turned and walked away. I'm guessing he thought I had a gun or something.


 
Street people tend to watch the hands and don't like it when they can't tell what you might be holding.


----------



## jorn (Feb 1, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> Wuda, cuda, shuda,.... Look, one can construct any imaginary scenario in which self-defense fails. What is your point? We know that nothing is guaranteed in life already.


How many muggers do you think will allow you to reach for a metal object and point it at them? Don't you see the potential dangers here in most cases? In daytime it wont help, and in the dark, it may force the bad guy to react. That is my point. Every action has a reaction, and that's real life.

Its not normal walking around public with a flashlight ready in the hand, not even by flashoholics.


----------



## Jay R (Feb 1, 2010)

jorn said:


> Its not normal walking around public with a flashlight ready in the hand, not even by flashoholics.


 

Speak for yourself. :naughty:


----------



## MrBenchmark (Feb 1, 2010)

jorn said:


> Its not normal walking around public with a flashlight ready in the hand, not even by flashoholics.


 
If you are in the dark, why wouldn't you use a flashlight? I always carry one, and if I'm someplace dark - I use it. It seems to me that you are quite unlikely to cause disturbance or alarm by providing illumination along your own path.


----------



## hoongern (Feb 1, 2010)

Personally, I have conflicting thoughts on the use of flashlights in these types of situations. I think the situation can go either ways when you use a flashlight - it could diffuse the situation, or it could make it worse. It's always a risk. And because each each situation is different, it's hard to decide whether a flashlight will always be useful or not.

But anyway, I still enjoyed reading Surefire's stories regarding flashlights and bad guys...


----------



## J_C (Feb 1, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> I don't see anyone who supports carrying a flashlight providing a false sense of security. In any case, if it is broad daylight and the opponent has sunglasses, so what. You are no worse off than if you didn't have a flashlight.



Yeah, I feel that way about bananas too. :devil:


----------



## Warp (Feb 1, 2010)

hoongern said:


> Personally, I have conflicting thoughts on the use of flashlights in these types of situations. I think the situation can go either ways when you use a flashlight - it could diffuse the situation, or it could make it worse. It's always a risk. And because each each situation is different, it's hard to decide whether a flashlight will always be useful or not.
> 
> But anyway, I still enjoyed reading Surefire's stories regarding flashlights and bad guys...


 


I only read the first one on the top of the page and it was a perfect example of a person being an idiot and completely failing at situational awareness and confrontation avoidance.

Out running at night in the dark when a slow moving car passes you then stops 20 feet ahead....and you run right by it? Please, if this happens to any of you _go the other direction _without losing sight of the vehicle.


----------



## Locoboy5150 (Feb 1, 2010)

My suggestion is to get a 4 - 6 D cell incandescent Maglite, fully load it up with D cells, and then just leave it off throughout any confrontation.


----------



## Warp (Feb 1, 2010)

Locoboy5150 said:


> My suggestion is to get a 4 - 6 D cell incandescent Maglite, fully load it up with D cells, and then just leave it off throughout any confrontation.


 


rob3rto said:


> Hi. As per title. *What small handbag friendly torch would you suggest?* Got to be able to blind them for 30 seconds, easy to use, maybe strobe effect? Want to buy one for my now wife for when I can't pick her up from the train station.


----------



## Locoboy5150 (Feb 1, 2010)

Yeah, I read that part about it fitting into a handbag. Just get her a huge handbag for the Maglite.


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 1, 2010)

jorn said:


> How many muggers do you think will allow you to reach for a metal object and point it at them? Don't you see the potential dangers here in most cases? In daytime it wont help, and in the dark, it may force the bad guy to react. That is my point. Every action has a reaction, and that's real life.
> 
> Its not normal walking around public with a flashlight ready in the hand, not even by flashoholics.



How many will allow you to draw a flashlight on them? I don't know, I haven't interviewed every mugger on the planet. I would wager, however, that probably no mugger wants their victims to give them a hard time. It's bad for business. They love the victim mentality.

You seem to be projecting your own imagined failure scenarios and stating them as fact -- "most cases", "wont (sic) help", "not normal" -- when it is really mere opinion.

There is no law of physics that says you have to make a big show of drawing the flashlight in full view of the attacker. The whole deal is surprise. The first inkling the attacker gets of a problem is when he sees a bright flash of light in his face. I can just as easily postulate that by the time the attacker orients himself, you are long gone. Automobile accident reconstruction shows that typically the reaction time to a surprise stimulus is about 1.5 sec. In that time interval, you can be 21 feet away and running fast, while the other guy is getting his bearings.

So what it won't work in daytime (outdoors). Don't use it then. I've run tests in class and it works in indoor office lighting well enough so that the opponent's reaction time was noticeably degraded. So basically, from indoor light brightness to outdoor darkness, a flashlight can interrupt an opponent's OODA loop. What more do you want? It's just a flashlight. I'll take 1.5 free seconds any day in a self-defense situation.


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 1, 2010)

jorn said:


> well if the purse was jerked right from her, the flashlight would be out of the picture anyway. Someone has to reach for the flashlight to really use it in a self defense scenario, don't they?



It has been empirically proven time and time again that action beats reaction. Multiple practitioners at the National Tactical Invitational have drawn a holstered Sim gun and shot their role-playing attackers who had their Sim guns already aimed in, and the attackers never even got a shot off.

Action beats reaction, surprise resets the OODA loop, constant insertion of OODA loop interruptions never allows the attacker to catch up.

Is this result guaranteed? Of course not. But one certainly can draw a flashlight from a purse in plenty of time to use it.


----------



## Warp (Feb 1, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> Multiple practitioners at the National Tactical Invitational have drawn a holstered Sim gun and shot their role-playing attackers who had their Sim guns already aimed in, and the attackers never even got a shot off.


 

In cases like that the guy coming from the holster is, oh, about fifty times more skilled.


Drawing on a guy who has his gun in his hand, pointed at you, is suicidal.


----------



## Locoboy5150 (Feb 1, 2010)

Warp said:


> Drawing on a guy who has his gun in his hand, pointed at you, is suicidal.



What...are you saying that Hollywood has been *LYING* to us all these years?!!! 

I always get a chuckle at those overly used scenes in just about every action film when a guy can move faster than another guy's trigger finger.


----------



## grunscga (Feb 1, 2010)

You guys are running off on a completely irrelevant tangent. If a bad guy already has a gun out and pointed at you, pulling out a flashlight and sprinkling some photons on him is not going to help, regardless of who does what first.

However: *THAT IS NOT THE POINT*...unless there is a high percentage of teleporting ninja muggers spotted in the vicinity. By the time you see a teleporting ninja mugger, it's already too late for anything other than his good will to do you any good (_never trust in the goodwill of a ninja mugger, teleporting or otherwise_).

Any other kind of mugger, at least in my somewhat limited experience growing up in a major metropolitan area, can NOT appear in front of you out of thin air, guns drawn. They have to approach you, and in the process, evaluate you. If they get right up to you and you show no sign of knowing they're there, then they will happily proceed to mug the [censored] out of you. However, if they realize that you are already watching them, the trouble you can cause them goes way up in their mind. Are there hard-cases out there that will still go through with it, even if it seems like you might put up a fight? Probably, although I've never run into one (luckily for both of us). On the other hand, I'm a relatively big dude that used to be in much better shape, so that puts me ahead of a woman as far as intimidation goes.

For me, the whole argument comes down to this: is carrying a flashlight useful for someone spending time in the dark? Yes. Is there a possibility that it could be used to intimidate someone with bad intentions but little initiative? Yes. Is there a downside? No (unless you consider the extra carried weight to be a downside). So what's the problem?


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 1, 2010)

Warp said:


> In cases like that the guy coming from the holster is, oh, about fifty times more skilled.
> 
> 
> Drawing on a guy who has his gun in his hand, pointed at you, is suicidal.



Yeah, you need a certain level of skill -- and guts. But hardly "fifty times" more. Refer back to my citation of car accident reconstruction findings that typical reaction time to a surprise is about 1.5 sec. Most C class shooters can draw from concealment in 1.5 sec or less, and with a sidestep movement integrated in.

But the point isn't to advocate drawing against a drawn gun. The point is that action beats reaction.

Sure, many responses are less than desirable -- be it a weapon disarm, solo clearing, or drawing against a drawn gun -- assuming you still have other options. What you choose to do in self-defense is situation-dependent. I've never denied that. But I'll tell you what. If someone is trying to force me into a car or a car trunk or to some isolated location, I'll take my chances with a draw, because the alternative is clearly unacceptable. I'll draw a flashlight if that's all I have. I'll also say that if you have a losing mindset, you'll probably lose.


----------



## Warp (Feb 1, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> Most C class shooters can draw from concealment in 1.5 sec or less, and with a sidestep movement integrated in.


 

And most people, period, can fire in less than 1.5 seconds when the gun is in their hand and pointed at their target. 


Trust me, I know. I can draw and fire three shots on target from a level 2 retention holster in 1.5 seconds. Well, I could last year, I havnt been on a range that was that nice since then. And I have done my fair share of FoF training with the blue guns. The standard weapon retention, disarmament, DT, etc.




BUT this is very off topic and I apologize, that will be the last I post about drawing/guns/etc in this thread.


----------



## Search (Feb 1, 2010)

I think a lot of people (non CPFmers included) need to realize the purpose of a bright light.

I don't think this kind of question should be asked on a flashlight forum. It needs to be asked in a place that isn't the internet actually.

JustinCase said the only thing that should be said. Something to the affect of a light is a step in a solution to the problem, not the solution itself. Which ties into the first sentence of this post.


----------



## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 1, 2010)

jorn said:


> Its not normal walking around public with a flashlight ready in the hand, not even by flashoholics.


Nobody's suggesting to do it as a matter of habit, but if you're out walking by yourself at night and think you might need to defend yourself then having it in your hand and ready do wield makes sense.


----------



## J_C (Feb 1, 2010)

The problem with a flashlight in these types of scenarios is you do not want to cause fear, anger, confusion of any kind. You want the situation to go SLOW AND CALM.

People committing there crimes may be on edge already, or on drugs, or desperate for drugs, etc. You cannot predict what someone will do when they are surprised but whatever it is, 9 times out of ten it is something worse than if things were SLOW AND CALM.


----------



## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 1, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> I've run tests in class and it works in indoor office lighting well enough so that the opponent's reaction time was noticeably degraded.


I can picture you sneaking up on your classmates and suddenly shining a light in their face and then retreating as they sit there rubbing their eyes and saying, "What the hell!"


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 1, 2010)

I would definitely suggest a single mode light. Much as I like my new SureFire U2A, it would be a bad thing to be using it in Min mode and forget to reset the selector ring to Max. Sequential access UIs are even worse IMO, forcing you to cycle through the modes in series with each tail button press. Mode memory sounds good in theory, but often fails in practice as well. The time interval for mode memory is often incompatible with self-defense usage.

I really dislike lockout tailcaps. A self-defense situation is the last place I want to have to twist the tailcap to take it out of lockout.

I could live with a single mode, forward clicky. But I prefer the original SF tailcap UI -- no lockout, momentary-on only.

A 2-stage tailcap UI such as the McC2S/McE2S is probably acceptable, assuming 100% reliability. In principle, stress should make you press the tail button harder, thus activating the High mode that you want anyway.

I don't like the Aleph flattop tailcap button style. It is overly hard to engage the switch reliably and fast. I also dislike metal shrouded tailcap buttons, which also makes button engagement that much more difficult. I'm not interested in tailstanding my self-defense equipment. If I need to do so, I'll use a different light. Or use a Z48/Z49. I can lay my thumb across the rubber shroud, collapsing it, and hitting the button. I don't need to angle my thumb over the top.

I like pocket clips and I like on-body carry, but for ladies in business attire, it's hard to picture a SureFire L4 or even a TW4 clipped to their garment, so purse carry is probably going to be the rule.

IMO, you need a bright light to be effective. Yes, that can impact your own dark-adapted vision. There's no free lunch. But it would be worse if you negatively impacted your own vision but didn't induce enough of a visual surprise to the opponent. My opinion is that the minimum acceptable hot spot brightness is that from a SureFire 6P. I personally prefer more than that. YMMV.


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 1, 2010)

J_C said:


> The problem with a flashlight in these types of scenarios is you do not want to cause fear, anger, confusion of any kind. You want the situation to go SLOW AND CALM.
> 
> People committing there crimes may be on edge already, or on drugs, or desperate for drugs, etc. You cannot predict what someone will do when they are surprised but whatever it is, 9 times out of ten it is something worse than if things were SLOW AND CALM.



Sure, it's a force continuum. I believe that I wrote before that the flashlight probably comes between the lowest level of presence/verbal commands/interaction (a non-LEO probably has very little presence so it's basically verbal commands/verbal interaction for most of us) and soft hands. Same as the StoppaRed product as far as I can tell. I want to set my boundaries before I have to lay hands on anyone. Setting boundaries afterward is too late.

If I'm using the light, I want them to be surprised.


----------



## blub (Feb 1, 2010)

Just act crazy, wear your underwear on your head, hold your flashlight in your mouth and mold a couple of Snickers bars into a gun, nobody will hassle you.


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 1, 2010)

I forgot, I also don't like itty-bitty lights. They are hard to find, hard to hold, and tend to get blocked by the meat of your hand.

I don't like smooth, slippery lights either.

Tail up or tail down carry seems like a personal preference.

I would carry it in the same place every time so that reaching for it becomes reflexive. Moving the carry location from place to place is just asking for confusion under stress.

For a carried a lot, rarely used light, I'd probably use primary 123A cells to power the light.


----------



## Benson (Feb 2, 2010)

jorn said:


> Its not normal walking around public with a flashlight ready in the hand, not even by flashoholics.



It is, at night. Especially in questionable areas; I don't really walk through any bad neighborhoods, but there's a few that aren't exactly good late at night. Even when streetlights are adequate to see, and I'm keeping a low profile by not using a light, I _always_ have one in my hand in these areas, and I wouldn't find it the least bit odd if anyone else did.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 2, 2010)

rob3rto said:


> Hi. As per title. What small handbag friendly torch would you suggest? Got to be able to blind them for 30 seconds, easy to use, maybe strobe effect? Want to buy one for my now wife for when I can't pick her up from the train station.




Things you'll need to consider as a "one size fits all" approach shouldn't be pursued...


*#1* First I'd have to enquire exactly how BIG this handbag of your wife's is... I've seen some rather large shoulder slung bags over the years.

*#2* 30 seconds is a little optimistic in terms of ocular reaction to over exposure to light (seeing stars), many things can influence the pupil's reaction time including but not limited to alcohol, drugs, sleep deprivation, age & health so working with a more realistic 5~10 second window-of-opportunity your wife will need to plan ahead the type of reaction she intends to employ immediately after disrupting her aggressor's OODA loop (thought/decision plan & process), a good article relating to Boyd's Cycle (OODA) can be found HERE, there's also an interesting article relating to the use of a flashlight to create chaos during a confrontation (albeit more aimed at tactical operations).

*#3* Choice of power source is going to be paramount, is your wife likely to regularly check the batteries? OR would the superior shelf life offered by a Lithium cell be advised? I'd likely recommend the latter.

*#4* User interface, during periods of high stress our fine motor skills can and do become impaired leaving us with only our gross motor skills (those performed by your major muscle groups) so ease of operation is critical!

*#5* How much light output is warranted? well according to Surefire a tactical level of light is around 50 Lumens plus, as manufacturers rate their lights differently I'd start looking in the 150Lm+.

*#6* Lastly no product on today's market that your wife can legally carry will have as much influence on the outcome of an attempted assault/mugging as self defence tuition... period, when used in conjunction with a flashlight her chances of escape increase dramatically.

Personally I'd be looking for alternative transport solutions (a friend, relative OR taxi) and avoid putting your partner at risk to begin with :thumbsup:


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Feb 2, 2010)

blub said:


> Just act crazy, wear your underwear on your head, hold your flashlight in your mouth and mold a couple of Snickers bars into a gun, nobody will hassle you.



Yeah ..... I was gonna suggest :

Skunk perfume , carry a Bible and a soap box , and preach sermons on the train platform .

Every one will keep their distance and leave her alone .
.


----------



## DM51 (Feb 2, 2010)

Most of the last ~20 posts have been more to do with self-defense and training, which I must once again repeat is *off topic* for this forum.


----------



## DM51 (Feb 2, 2010)

Another 10 posts deleted as off-topic and argumentative. :shakehead


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 2, 2010)

I'd probably get an LED light, not incandescent, to avoid issues of fragile filament breakage. Getting a specific LED chromaticity bin is probably not necessary, but if it's a freebie, you may as well get one you like.

The light has to be 100% reliable. None of this business of shaking the light to get it to work. Thus, I would stick with the proven brands and avoid the discount lights. Let someone else be the beta tester for the latest hot product to come out the chute.


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 2, 2010)

DM51 said:


> Another 10 posts deleted as off-topic and argumentative. :shakehead


 
Sorry about that.


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 2, 2010)

Lights equipped with trits, GITD buttons, GITD powder, and the like are probably undesirable and should be avoided. Although this is probably a secondary or even tertiary issue, there is really no need to risk giving away your position. If the only light you find meets all other specs, however, then I guess I'd go for it. But I'd probably take some opaque marker and black out the offending glows.

For the beam pattern, I'd try to select one that provides a hot spot (perhaps plus corona) that is large enough to cover a person's face from about 6 feet (a typical min empty hands reactionary gap distance) to 21 feet (the bare min reactionary gap for a contact distance weapon like a stick or knife). This is an empirical suggestion meant to provide some leeway for you to stay on-target with your flashlight. The desired hot spot size can easily vary with target range, your skill, your degree of movement, and the opponent's degree of movement.


----------



## Tora (Feb 4, 2010)

I am a Correctional Officer (21+ yrs.). I have used the bright beam of my flashlights to force aggressive inmates to look away. Some have recoiled at first light. I have always worked nights and I work the yard often. I have tried it on myself and it destroys the night vision for at least a few seconds. I carry 3 flashlights on my belt but the temporary "blinder" of choice for me is the Jetbeam RRT-1. It has a very bright and tightly focused beam. It breaks their composure, temporarily blinds them and makes you invisible to them. They must then consider what else you may have and that they are being spotlighted. It would also give her the precious few seconds head start to sprint to the nearest zone of safety. Remember, its purpose is not to defeat the attacker but to buy time for her. The RRT-2 would be even easier to carry. As she runs with it on and screaming, all eyes go to her and to her plight. Another thing the attacker wishes to avoid. It is a tool that can help.

By the way...don't buy the flashlight to fit the bag....buy the light that would work and buy the bag to fit it.


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 4, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> I can picture you sneaking up on your classmates and suddenly shining a light in their face and then retreating as they sit there rubbing their eyes and saying, "What the hell!"


 
This was (dummy) knife v (dummy) knife training in the gym.


----------



## rob3rto (Feb 4, 2010)

Tora said:


> I am a Correctional Officer (21+ yrs.). I have used the bright beam of my flashlights to force aggressive inmates to look away. Some have recoiled at first light. I have always worked nights and I work the yard often. I have tried it on myself and it destroys the night vision for at least a few seconds. I carry 3 flashlights on my belt but the temporary "blinder" of choice for me is the Jetbeam RRT-1. It has a very bright and tightly focused beam. It breaks their composure, temporarily blinds them and makes you invisible to them. They must then consider what else you may have and that they are being spotlighted. It would also give her the precious few seconds head start to sprint to the nearest zone of safety. Remember, its purpose is not to defeat the attacker but to buy time for her. The RRT-2 would be even easier to carry. As she runs with it on and screaming, all eyes go to her and to her plight. Another thing the attacker wishes to avoid. It is a tool that can help.
> 
> By the way...don't buy the flashlight to fit the bag....buy the light that would work and buy the bag to fit it.



Thanks for the reply.


----------



## JNewell (Feb 4, 2010)

Yucca Patrol said:


> A flashlight just isn't going to do anything other than give your wife a false sense of security.


 

True.  However, remember also that not all strobes are created equal. Most are too fast or too slow to contribute anything to any to-be-hoped-for disruptive effect.

Also remember that at best a very effective light used very effectively is going to give you a second or so to get out of Dodge or call the cavalry - no more.


----------



## Search (Feb 4, 2010)

If it's dark out, and you have a bright light, and you shine it in someones face, you are adding a few seconds to do something else..

..That's it, period.


Now, the question is, how fluent are you in self defense to make the best of those few seconds.


----------



## Hertao (Feb 6, 2010)

This is an excellent thread with some very useful information. Great job keeping it going and under control DM51!

I've been teaching self defense for nearly 20 years, and have tested several flashlights to aid in that purpose. I'd like to add just a bit to this discussion... In my experience and testing, a flashlight can help do a couple of good things related to self defense (as others have mentioned):

1. Expose a potential threat/attacker.
2. Temporarily "blind" a potential attacker.

Regarding #1, by exposing a potential attacker (who may be hiding in a dark place) a person can potentially avoid that threat by taking a different route, etc. There's also the possibility that the attacker will chose another victim who was not so aware and observant.

Regarding #2, I've tested this many times and against many people. A very bright flashlight will indeed temporarily "blind" someone with night adapted vision. BUT, I wouldn't count on it giving you more than 1-2 seconds. However, as Tora wrote, "It would also give her the precious few seconds head start to sprint to the nearest zone of safety. Remember, its purpose is not to defeat the attacker but to buy time for her." And as Search wrote: "Now, the question is, how fluent are you in self defense to make the best of those few seconds."

So to me, there is no doubt that a bright light can be an aid. But you've got to be realistic enough to understand what benefit you're going to get. Use it primarily to find, avoid, and/or deter a potential threat at a distance, and possibly to gain a couple/few seconds at closer range...IF the situation permits. 

What's the best light for this purpose? My choice is the Surefire LX2. It's small enough to carry anywhere, VERY bright, can be activated instantly via the tail cap button, and has a clip that allows it to be carried in a quickly-accessible way. The clip on the LX2 is a huge plus in my opinion. If you've got a light without a clip (or a big light) it's likely going to go in a woman's purse. Because the LX2 clip allows for inside or outside the pocket/waistband wear and up or down orientation, it's extremely versatile. Anyone can easily carry it attached, and then put it in their hand when in a dark area.

The E2DL has similar functionality, but it's obviously a "self defense light", which is a huge turn off in my opinion. You might have trouble getting it on a plane, IF you did use it as an impact weapon (which I would NOT recommend) any attorney is going to call it a weapon...which it was poorly designed for, etc.

A high output light can be used as PART of a self defense strategy. But you had better realize it's only a part, or you're going to do more harm than good.


----------



## Warp (Feb 6, 2010)

Hertao said:


> Regarding #2, I've tested this many times and against many people. A very bright flashlight will indeed temporarily "blind" someone with night adapted vision. BUT, I wouldn't count on it giving you more than 1-2 seconds. However, as Tora wrote, "It would also give her the precious few seconds head start to sprint to the nearest zone of safety.


 

How the hell is a woman that is being attacked in a train station at night going to be a 2 second headstart away from a "zone of safety"??

If you are THAT close to a "zone of safety"....why aren't you simply in that 'zone' to begin with?


I really, really don't understand how a couple second headstart will allow the woman to get somewhere where she is suddenly safe. 



Can you extrapolate on specific examples?


----------



## Hertao (Feb 6, 2010)

@ Warp: I wasn't trying to imply (and I don't think Tora was either) that this theoretical woman only needs 2 seconds to get to safety! It may give her a head start though, and that may help depending on the situation. For example, if she's turned a corner off a populated street, onto an unpopulated street, maybe she's literally a 15 second sprint from "safety". A couple second head start MIGHT make the attacker give up/reconsider. Of course it might not...nothing is certain.

In any case where there was a *good opportunity* to shine the attacker in the face though, you'd be better off with a couple second lead than nothing...better off with a temporarily blinded attacker than not.

Like I said, using a light to illuminate a threat either for discovery/avoidance or "in the face" is only a PART of any self defense situation. It MIGHT help to have a head start. It MIGHT help to allow the woman to strike the man or access a real weapon. It might not. And there are most definitely times when attempting to shine an attacker in the face is a very, very bad idea.


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 6, 2010)

The problem is that everyone has some pet scenario in mind, and it may not coincide with the pet scenario that someone else has.

As Search and others have said multiple times, the sudden, surprise use of a bright light can gain you a sec or two advantage. In an "interpersonal encounter" (whether it's a fight in progress, an imminent fight, or still at the "interview" process -- though I doubt a flashlight will do much good for the first situation, maybe sometimes if you are lucky for the second, and best bet is for the third), that is a lot. But you have to do something with that time advantage or it will be wasted. And you have to be prepared to continue to press that advantage if you don't break contact successfully.

Folks can poo-poo the use of a bright flashlight, but tell me this. If you had the chance to gain a 1 sec advantage against a potential opponent, would you want it or you wouldn't care?


----------



## ronb (Feb 6, 2010)

I think you would have better luck throwing copies of Windows 95 at the mugger.


----------



## jsholli (Feb 6, 2010)

ronb said:


> I think you would have better luck throwing copies of Windows 95 at the mugger.


 
Do whatever takes to break their concentration and let them know that you know they're casing you...for me, I prefer a bright light and follow-ups; you're more than welcome to let us know how the '95 approach works though


----------



## Search (Feb 6, 2010)

In reality, I hope you look elsewhere for you wives safety. A flashlight isn't going to help.

Maybe if you call it an illumination tool it will make it easier to see (I'm foreshadowing here).

It's job is to "illuminate" things. Well, illuminating things is what you do before you take action. It's not the action.


There is only one way to use a flashlight to save your life. Cough blunt force cough trauma cough. Which we aren't discussing. The odds are you don't want to take a knife to a gun fight.

What have we learned? Re read the first sentence. 


Where the hell is RoboCop at lately..


----------



## sabre7 (Feb 6, 2010)

Search said:


> Where the hell is RoboCop at lately..



Probably could have stuck a fork in this topic after the first half page, but then someone would have just opened yet another thread seeking a "self defense" flashlight to strobe, blind, stun, paralyze, nauseate, etc. Maybe it is just as well to let this one limp along for another 6+ pages?


----------



## Hertao (Feb 7, 2010)

> In reality, I hope you look elsewhere for you wives safety. A flashlight isn't going to help.
> 
> Maybe if you call it an illumination tool it will make it easier to see (I'm foreshadowing here).
> 
> It's job is to "illuminate" things. Well, illuminating things is what you do before you take action. It's not the action.



I think that's the bottom line. Well said.


----------



## Fusion_m8 (Feb 7, 2010)

WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF THE BAD GUY HAD A BRIGHTER FLASHLIGHT THAN YOU???? 

WHAT IF THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE?? MAYBE TWO, MAYBE FOUR??? HOW DO YOU KEEP YOUR FLASHLIGHT BEAM SIMULTANEOUSLY ON MULTIPLE TARGETS???

WHAT DO PEOPLE ALWAYS HAVE THIS NOTION THAT BAD GUYS DON'T USE FLASHLIGHTS WHEN COMMITTING A CRIME????

IF FLASHLIGHTS ARE THE PHYSICAL DETERRENT WE ALL HOPED IT WOULD BE, THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR SECURITY AND LAW ENFORCEMENT TO CARRY FIREARMS AND NON LETHAL FORMS OF DEFENSE.

Seriously... are ALL bad guys vampires or something?? Afraid of light???

I've said this before and I'll say it again: A flashlight isn't a weapon or a deterrent, it is merely an illumination tool that PARTNERS with other forms and tools of self-defense. It is merely another link in the chain. It is not THE chain.


----------



## dagored (Feb 7, 2010)

I have read this entire thread. It disturbs me. Am I to believe that in the UK and most of Europe, if someone attempts to assault you, you can get into trouble for defending yourself? For injuring them? That is very sad. Has common sense gone out the window for political correctness?

I think a 3 or 4 cell mag lite to use as a club would be my choice. Sad, very sad.


----------



## Paul Baldwin (Feb 7, 2010)

dagored said:


> I have read this entire thread. It disturbs me. Am I to believe that in the UK and most of Europe, if someone attempts to assault you, you can get into trouble for defending yourself? For injuring them? That is very sad. Has common sense gone out the window for political correctness?



You can indeed get in trouble I believe if you go further than using reasonable force. If someone breaks into your home and you defend yourselves and they flee you'd very probably not be prosecuted. However like the asian family in the news a couple of weeks ago you can end up in jail if you go too far. They chased an assailant down the street and broke a cricket bat over his head, supposedly giving him a brain injury, even tho he's continued to get in trouble with the law after the event!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6956044.ece
He was however released early due mainly to public pressure iirc

In another case two lads who were attacked on a night out didn't get in trouble for defending themselves. The whole thing was caught on CCTV, however I bet if it wasn't the outcome may have been very different? The video is in the link.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8296190.stm
They made the mistake of attacking two cage fighters dressed as women!!!!! 

As for a torch to possibly distract an attacker to give a woman a few yards head start I reckon my Ultrafire A10 on 14500's is a good alternative. Reasonable size, weight, durable and very bright with not too narrow a hotspot.


----------



## DM51 (Feb 7, 2010)

2 further posts have been deleted as off-topic, discussing the use of firearms.

Paul Baldwin's post above is also off-topic, but it may remain as it is explanatory and may help non-UK residents to understand the situation there.


----------



## peterkin101 (Feb 7, 2010)

Best off in this situation in the UK at least is to RUN.

If this fails then a torch such as a LED Lenser P7 or P14 IMHO will do a good job at blinding an attacker.

I would avoid torches like the Surefire E2c Defender-again IMHO you could be set up for possession of an offensive weapon.

The Law is MAD in the UK but that's the way it is.


----------



## Monocrom (Feb 7, 2010)

rob3rto said:


> Hi. As per title. What small handbag friendly torch would you suggest? Got to be able to blind them for 30 seconds, easy to use, maybe strobe effect? Want to buy one for my now wife for when I can't pick her up from the train station.


 
Oh God, not this again!

Okay, as someone who owns several lights capable of over 400+ lumens out the front, that can fit inside a pocket; and as someone with self-defense training, I can tell you this . . . 

*Such a light doesn't exist. You're not going to blind anyone with a flashlight for 30 seconds. Not happening! Not even if you have several like I do that put out 400+ lumens out the front. Best you can hope for is literally 1 second. No one can effectively defend themselves without having to get physical with their attacker or hurting their attacker. If anyone tells you otherwise, they are lying or have themselves been horribly misinformed!*


----------



## Paul Baldwin (Feb 8, 2010)

DM51 said:


> 2 further posts have been deleted as off-topic, discussing the use of firearms.
> 
> Paul Baldwin's post above is also off-topic, but it may remain as it is explanatory and may help non-UK residents to understand the situation there.



Thankyou DM51, that was the intention of my post 

Paul.


----------



## pm91 (Feb 8, 2010)

How soon do you think the laws in the US will be like the ones in the UK?


----------



## DM51 (Feb 8, 2010)

pm91 said:


> How soon do you think the laws in the US will be like the ones in the UK?


We'll refrain from that type of speculation, please.


----------



## bogside (Feb 9, 2010)

*Best Self Defense Flashlight?*

Ok, I am looking for the hands down, best self defense flashlight. Minimum requirements would be enough light to disorient an attacker and a strike bezel. 
I have checked out:
1. SureFire Defender
2. SOG Torch
3. Bright Strike Blue Dot
I like the push button tailcap also. 

I know these probably all come from China for pennies, does anyone have an inside scoop on an off brand that is less expensive. I could care less about the brand, I just want a top performing light. 

Please Help!!! Any advice or direction would be greatly appreciated!!


----------



## DM51 (Feb 10, 2010)

*Re: Best Self Defense Flashlight?*

Welcome to CPF, bogside.

We have a current thread on this topic, so I'm merging yours into it. It will help you to read the whole thread from the start.


----------



## Fusion_m8 (Feb 10, 2010)

*Re: Best Self Defense Flashlight?*

Solarforce L2 Cree R2 with A001 Tactical head.












bogside said:


> Ok, I am looking for the hands down, best self defense flashlight. Minimum requirements would be enough light to disorient an attacker and a strike bezel.
> I have checked out:
> 1. SureFire Defender
> 2. SOG Torch
> ...


----------



## e-ville (Feb 10, 2010)

im not sure if this has been suggested yet, but maybe some self defense training rather than adding weapons to the fight start with the weapons attatched to her arms

i would absolutely not allow my wife to carry a knife, gun, pepper spray or any type of tool that can be taken away from her and used against her until she learned to fight with her hands and feet first.

it makes things more interesting at home too now that she realizes she can be more rough :naughty:


----------



## DM51 (Feb 10, 2010)

e-ville said:


> *im not sure if this has been suggested yet*, but maybe some self defense training rather than adding weapons to the fight start with the weapons attatched to her arms
> 
> i would absolutely not allow my wife to carry a knife, gun, pepper spray or any type of tool that can be taken away from her and used against her until she learned to fight with her hands and feet first.


You should have read the whole thread... then you would have seen that on several occasions I have explicitly warned against any discussion of such items.


----------



## e-ville (Feb 10, 2010)

i didnt suggest any kind of weapons, he asked about a flashlight for her to defend herself. and learning with your hands first is paramount over anything else

and sorry but...im not going to read through 7 pages just to make a 3 sentence post


----------



## DM51 (Feb 10, 2010)

e-ville said:


> ... learning with your hands first is paramount over anything else
> 
> and sorry but...im not going to read through 7 pages just to make a 3 sentence post


Your disinclination to read input from other members, including instruction and guidance from CPF staff, is precisely what led to you make your off-topic post.

If everyone behaved like that, this forum would consist solely of people determined to read nothing and learn nothing, who instead think they know everything and just visit to make lofty posts that are in turn ignored and left unread by everyone else. 

Fortunately, most people do not share your attitude. If you persist with it, sooner or later you will be very likely to overlook a moderator's directive on some matter that will lead to your being suspended - and if you remain reluctant even then to read an explanatory post, you will be left in puzzled ignorance of why it has happened.


----------



## JNewell (Feb 10, 2010)

*Re: Best Self Defense Flashlight?*

Without getting into any of the very relevant related issues, I'd recommend (still) the Gladius and its clones. Pure lumens alone is not equivalent to a properly-timed strobe (and most strobes are not properly timed). I would never choose to rely solely on a flashlight, but if I did, this would still be the one.



bogside said:


> Ok, I am looking for the hands down, best self defense flashlight. Minimum requirements would be enough light to disorient an attacker and a strike bezel.
> I have checked out:
> 1. SureFire Defender
> 2. SOG Torch
> ...


----------



## Justin Case (Feb 10, 2010)

I think the Gladius is a great light and have one myself. But I also think that multimode lights in general are more trouble than they are worth.

Is the Gladius in lockout mode? Whoops, that's not good. Or did I leave it in strobe? Hmm, not sure. Or did I leave it in variable brightness, and also programmed the light to start in dim mod? At least if it is in Max mode, I can use the wrist wobble method to simulate a strobe, if that's the effect I want.

The Gladius also draws a small amount of power even when off. 2x123A cells last a long time regardless -- on the order of 2 years is my experience -- before you get the low batt warning. So the parasitic drain is probably a non-issue, but one should be aware of it IMO.

But because I can simulate a strobe, I'd suggest getting a single mode, tail button actuated, momentary-on light. No lockout tailcap. No multimodes.

If you need a strobe, either manually cycle the tailcap rapidly, or else oscillate the beam across the person's eyes, flickering the light between the hot spot and the spill (bright, dim, bright, dim, etc -- voila, a strobe).


----------



## gcbryan (Feb 17, 2010)

*Flashlights and self-defense?*

I'm fairly new to being a "flashaholic" if I can even be consider that now, so when did flashlights become about self-defense other than perhaps for cops?

Many lights have crenelated bezels for self-defense. Why? When I think of self-defense the last thing that comes to mind is a flashlight. I also don't spend much time thinking about self-defense.

Also, why does almost every light today have one or more strobe modes? Is there any history at all of this feature being useful or successful in a rescue situation? Are there numerous stories of people being rescued due to their strobe?

These two features are more or less in the irritating category for me and I see posts every now and then where people are trying to program with away. Who was asking for strobe modes in the first place?


----------



## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: Flashlights and self-defense?*

There was recently a large thread on this very same topic:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/259371

General consensus was that in the best of circumstances, stunning an assailant with a bright will only buy you a couple of seconds at most and so you'd need a good follow-up plan to take advantage of it. A flashlight by itself isn't going to protect you from anything except darkness.


----------



## Buckley (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: Flashlights and self-defense?*

It is my considered opinion that a flashlight has only one role in self defense: To ensure that the sights of your firearm are aligned on a hostile rather than a friendly.


----------



## johnny3073 (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: Flashlights and self-defense?*

Although I don't have a scientific study to quote at this time, it is my personal belief that the strobe effect from a well trained muzzle flash has a much better chance to deter/subdue an attacker than a hand torch.

A flashlight is a tool used to _illuminate_ a threat, not _eliminate_ a threat.

Could a flashlight be used effectively as a self-defense tool? Sure, but the same could be said for flinging an angry cat at your opponent.


----------



## Dioni (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: Flashlights and self-defense?*



gcbryan said:


> I'm fairly new to being a "flashaholic" if I can even be consider that now, so when did flashlights become about self-defense other than perhaps for cops?
> 
> Many lights have crenelated bezels for self-defense. Why? When I think of self-defense the last thing that comes to mind is a flashlight. I also don't spend much time thinking about self-defense.
> 
> ...


 
The "have or not Strobe" is a looooong discussion and I wont get it back. However, IMO a crenelated bezel can be useful when instead a knife or something, but USE it could not be a good idea. Or, the question is WHEN use it.



johnny3073 said:


> Although I don't have a scientific study to quote at this time, it is my personal belief that the strobe effect from a well trained muzzle flash has a much better chance to deter/subdue an attacker than a hand torch.
> 
> A flashlight is a tool used to _illuminate_ a threat, not _eliminate_ a threat.
> 
> Could a flashlight be used effectively as a self-defense tool? Sure, but the same could be said for flinging an angry cat at your opponent.


 
I agree 100%!


----------



## Databyter (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: Flashlights and self-defense?*



gcbryan said:


> I'm fairly new to being a "flashaholic" if I can even be consider that now, so when did flashlights become about self-defense other than perhaps for cops?
> 
> Many lights have crenelated bezels for self-defense. Why? When I think of self-defense the last thing that comes to mind is a flashlight. I also don't spend much time thinking about self-defense.
> 
> ...



The number one reason is that at night, this is usually on your hand or in your pocket/belt, so it is a hunk of metal you have with you already at night.

The crellenated bezels just make it that much more damaging if you hit sombody with it because they focus the same force over a smaller impact area, so that even a glancing blow will probably be more effective as a deterant.

That's really the primary reason, it's there, and it's legal, another consideration, it is a tool who's primary goal and purpose is illumination, but being that you use it at night, gosh knows where or why, it's nice to have something solid in your hand.

Also it might look strange to have a lead pipe in your hand walking through a scary part of town, but a light is innocuous and provides the same enhancement.


----------



## Frankiarmz (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: Flashlights and self-defense?*

I don't want to sound paranoid, but I think everyone should give some thought to self defense. We live in a society where the threat and reality of injury by a person or animal is very real, so why not be prepared? You might not want to carry a folding knife for protection, but the flashlight bezel is better than a untrained fist in my opinion. We should also be prepared in the event of an accident or other emergency, to be able to light our way or signal for help. The strobe feature of these LED flashlights, provide a get tool for signaling for help and temporarily blinding a threat. How about sharpening the bezel to make it more effective? You either want to be a victim, or a survivior and a survivor prepares!


----------



## Frankiarmz (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: Flashlights and self-defense?*

I agree with databyter ( Mike), it can't hurt to have that solid, heavy flashlight in your hand. Who knows, maybe it will make a difference?


----------



## 2Reason (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: Flashlights and self-defense?*



Buckley said:


> It is my considered opinion that a flashlight has only one role in self defense: To ensure that the sights of your firearm are aligned on a hostile rather than a friendly.



Good point... there are too many devices of dubious value being touted as self defense weapons, thereby giving people a false sense of security. 

At best a blinding light will buy you some time, and that could be extremely valuable in a potential lethal force encounter. However, to successfully employ a modern day LED light the size of an M21 Warrior as a defensive weapon would require sufficient skill in hand to hand combat in order to be effective. 

As a retired law enforcement official, my long term experience suggests that there is no substitute for extensive training in both armed and unarmed combat. Such an achievement is not easily acquired.

Accordingly, there are too many people carrying handguns without sufficient training, so they will never effectively deploy them in that nano second time span of opportunity. To do so requires extensive repetitive muscle memory training.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a strong proponent of 2nd Amendment Rights, but advocate sufficient training and education for those that accept the responsibility of being armed. 

Other less lethal weapons provide an exponentiated diminished return on effectiveness without the requisite training. Some devices like Tasers and Pepper Spray represent a modicum of legitimate protection. But again, training in their use is paramount. 

The only flashlights that I consider defensive weapons are the old Kel-Lites and MagLites, whose substantial size qualified them as legitimate bludgeoning devices. Their lethality was legendary in policing, and their misuse by police led to their eventual banning in most progressive departments.


----------



## DM51 (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: Flashlights and self-defense?*

As noted above by the.Mtn.Man, there is a currently still active thread on this topic, so we don't need a separate one. I'm merging the two.

Members are advised to _read the entire thread before replying_. The thread is subject to strict moderation and there is to be no discussion of gratuitous violence. I reproduce here a post from earlier in the thread:



DM51 said:


> Self-protection (and protecting one’s family and friends) is a matter that is obviously of great interest to members. That’s why we try to keep threads like this open wherever possible. However:
> 
> This is a family-oriented forum, so any discussion of violent behavior, use of weapons, causing injuries to people (etc., etc.) is out of place. That should go to the Underground or elsewhere.
> 
> ...


----------



## johnny3073 (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: Flashlights and self-defense?*



2Reason said:


> The only flashlights that I consider defensive weapons are the old Kel-Lites and MagLites, whose substantial size qualified them as legitimate bludgeoning devices. Their lethality was legendary in policing, and their misuse by police led to their eventual banning in most progressive departments.


 
Anyone that's ever been treated to a "MagLite Shampoo" will confirm this statement as an undeniable fact. 

Unfortunately, in many cases of "misuse" the light was used in an offensive instead of defensive manner.


----------



## Databyter (Feb 17, 2010)

I think a bright light is a good idea for your wife, and better than nothing, but I agree with most of the above that I wouldn't depend on a light stopping an attacker, assuming she could even deploy it effectively, for more than a few seconds.

I was thinking Pepper spray, but I surmise that in the UK where insanity rules, it's not legal to have the responsibility for ones self, Big Brother will protect you. Personally I might bend that rule for my wife depending on the penalty.

But how about those super loud portable horns, not the party ones but the real hard core defense ones that are shatteringly loud.

Your wife will expect the sound the attacker will not, it should shock him or discourage him. It certainly will bring alot of attention and attackers of women are cowards who don't like publicity.

I'll try to find a link, I'm thinking they might be considered legal since it is just sound and direct contact is not made.

EDIT: A google search later, heres the first one that popped up, http://www.defensedevices.com/air-horn-portable.html
Kinda big, but should fit in a purse, and further searches will net some more portable designs. I hear they are effective because they snap people into a sort of shock and awe mode where fear is the first instinct. This one claims to be actually dangerous to eardrums when aimed directly at the head, use with caution. You don't need to always have the horn head on, you can put it on for sinstance when leaving work, the rest of the day it's very portable in a purse, even with head on it will still fit and be on top.


----------



## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 19, 2010)

*Re: Flashlights and self-defense?*



johnny3073 said:


> Could a flashlight be used effectively as a self-defense tool? Sure, but the same could be said for flinging an angry cat at your opponent.


Now all they need to do is invent an angry cat that'll fit in your pocket and can be wielded at a moment's notice.


----------



## jsholli (Feb 19, 2010)

*Re: Flashlights and self-defense?*



the.Mtn.Man said:


> Now all they need to do is invent an angry cat that'll fit in your pocket and can be wielded at a moment's notice.


 
Yeah, but it's got to be a short-hair...we all know that long hair can be a big weakness in hand-to-hand [or hand-to-paw] confrontations :ironic:


----------



## BigBluefish (Feb 19, 2010)

*Re: Flashlights and self-defense?*



the.Mtn.Man said:


> Now all they need to do is invent an angry cat that'll fit in your pocket and can be wielded at a moment's notice.


 
Actually, you need the Rabbit from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Feb 20, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *the.Mtn.Man* 

 
_Now all they need to do is invent an angry cat that'll fit in your pocket and can be wielded at a moment's notice._
..................................................................................................................

Yeah, but it's got to be a short-hair...we all know that long hair can be a big weakness in hand-to-hand [or hand-to-paw] confrontations :ironic: 

...................................................................................................................

Actually ....... a HAIRLESS CAT would scare the attacker even MORE


----------



## Flashlight Aficionado (Feb 20, 2010)

Wanna buy an attack cat?


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Feb 20, 2010)

L.M.A.O. :laughing:


Those are GREAT .... please blow them up a little

for effect


*I'll take the 3rd one with the FANGS ... and EVIL green reptile eyes .*

 PM me your PayPet address ...... 

Is it already "ATTACK trained" ...... with certification papers ?
.


----------



## Dioni (Feb 20, 2010)

holy sh... It does not even need attack! :green:


----------



## DM51 (Feb 20, 2010)

Flashlight Aficionado said:


>


_*LOL!!!*_


----------



## uknewbie (Feb 21, 2010)

Can't believe this topic has not been closed in over 200 posts!

I would second the issue of having an item adversised as a "self defense" bezel or "strike" bezel in the UK. I would not like to be the test case for this in terms of a "sharply pointed article", or more likely one "made or intended for causing harm"

Blinding effect won't work in a street lit area, only near total darkness.

Having a crazy bright light shone in his face may just spook the attacker though I suppose (EDC-MCE maybe? total flood 700 lumens) but I also think Stoppa Red would be better.


----------



## DM51 (Feb 21, 2010)

The topic has gone full circle, and just about everything has been said that can be. I'm closing it now.


----------

