# 4Sevens Preon vs. Fenix LD05 >> New 2xAAA Lights <<



## EngrPaul (Oct 23, 2009)

Somebody had to start this thread! :tinfoil:

I just love the fact there are two new 2xAAA lights on the market, I've been waiting a long time! 

Are there any "pros" to the Fenix? Maybe an extra 0.2V input voltage rating? 

I'm waiting for the ADAYTOOLATE40 Coupon code before I get the LD05. :nana:


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## madmook (Oct 23, 2009)

I chose the Preon kit for these reasons:

1) Based on specs, the Preon 2xAAA clicky configuration, same as the LD05, is shorter.

2) For the same price, the Preon kit lets me configure as I wish, between the 1/2-cell battery tube and clicky/twisty UI.

3) The Preon 2xAAA has a much higher max brightness, albeit at the expense of some runtime.

A pro for the Fenix LD05 would've been the slightly higher medium mode (32 lumens vs. 22 on the Preon II), but then I don't know whether Fenix uses OTF lumens in their specs.


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## xcel730 (Oct 23, 2009)

It's a very tough call, but I think 47 Preon stole a lot of spotlight from LD05. 

Actually, I was close to ordering the LD05 yesterday and when I found out about the Preon, I jump ship and order that instead. They're the same price (aluminum kit and ti/aluminum combo at least), Preon uses the XP-G emitter and they have titanium. Honestly, if they weren't released on the same day, I would have probably ended getting both.

Edit:

The pro (FOR ME) is that Fenix start on Med. I know most people favors starting from low, but I actually don't mind Fenixes' med-low-high sequence since I mostly use the medium mode anyway.


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## jumpin jack flash (Oct 23, 2009)

I'm not excited about either one. The 2xAAA versions look sort of like laser pointers to me, and the 1xAAA is not as small as I hoped for. I was looking for a very small 1xAAA for pants pocket EDC, with good knurling and a reversible clip for cap use, as well as an advanced UI and a clicky. Oh well, to each his own. I'm sure 4 Sevens and Fenix did research on most desirable qualities to come up with what they did.


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## Henk_Lu (Oct 23, 2009)

As the LD05 uses an XPE, it could have more throw than the Preon...


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## Woods Walker (Oct 23, 2009)

Not sure as to the point of a 2XAAA light. The only reason why I like 1xAAA is smaller size.


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## EngrPaul (Oct 23, 2009)

Woods Walker said:


> Not sure as to the point of a 2XAAA light. The only reason why I like 1xAAA is smaller size.


 

Brighter light, longer runtime, no bigger in diameter, just longer.


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## Woods Walker (Oct 23, 2009)

I guess. For me the only possible need/want would be for my packs that has 3xAAA headlamps and radios running off AAA. This way I could keep all the batteries the same. But for EDC most 1XAAA lights offer more output than I need and 1XCR123 more so. Wonder why Fenix didn't upgrade the LD01 at the same time?


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## BentHeadTX (Oct 23, 2009)

I was thinking the aluminum 2AAA Preon would be a nice bicycle helmet light. Very light, narrow enough to rest between the cooling vents on the helmet and 160 lumens OTF of a floody beam. I'll wait for the reviews but it is between a 1AA Quark R5 and the Preon 2AA R5 for my wife. 

For me? My helmet is waiting for the 2AA Turbo headed thing...


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## sol-leks (Oct 23, 2009)

I'm going to be more interested to see how the preon I compares to the illuminaTI


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## DigMe (Oct 23, 2009)

Has Fenix always directly copied other manufacturers or is this a first for them? 

brad


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## berry580 (Oct 23, 2009)

Woods Walker said:


> Not sure as to the point of a 2XAAA light. The only reason why I like 1xAAA is smaller size.


Yeah, i have that in mind as well.

The advantage is primarily being thinner, but at the expense of being longer, so if you find thin long things easier to carry, get 2xAAA light if you find short fat things easier to carry, get 1xCR123 or 1xCR2 lights.

So professionals like electricians might fancy it, but as of now, I have yet to convince myself to get a 2xAAA light.


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## BentHeadTX (Oct 23, 2009)

I can see doctors liking the 2AAA titanium Preon

It comes on at default 0.8 lumens to check the eyes and they can click it to higher outputs for throat (etc) Throw it in some 10% bleach to decontaminate and press on. 

It makes sense to really HIDE the strobe function then, donchathink? 

A nice light to have to put in that inside pocket on a suit also, or were ever you put pens. On military uniforms there are pen holders sewn into the shirt sleeve cuffs so that light would be a natural to EDC there. The hard part is wrapping the cranium around the idea of a penlight blasting 160 lumens out the front! 

Might make a nice bicycle helmet light also...fit right inside those narrow vents and such.


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## berry580 (Oct 23, 2009)

BentHeadTX said:


> A nice light to have to put in that inside pocket on a suit also, or were ever you put pens. On military uniforms there are pen holders sewn into the shirt sleeve cuffs so that light would be a natural to EDC there. The hard part is wrapping the cranium around the idea of a penlight blasting 160 lumens out the front!
> 
> Might make a nice bicycle helmet light also...fit right inside those narrow vents and such.


If i didn't know, I'd be thinking you're advertising for Fenix and 4sevens:laughing:


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## Rexlion (Oct 23, 2009)

I can't help wondering how hot that 2AAA Preon will get on high. Efficient or not, that's a ton of lumens for such a small package.


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## Burgess (Oct 23, 2009)

BentHeadTX said:


> It comes on at default 0.8 lumens . . . .


 

Just FYI . . . .

4Sevens has now edited the Specs.

What was *0.8* Lumens, is now *2.2* Lumens.


Just wanted to let you know.


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## mightysparrow (Oct 23, 2009)

The advantage of a 2xAAA light is that it can often be put anywhere a pen can be put- it's not too heavy or thick to clip on a pocket, for example, and it gives you longer runtimes (and sometimes more lumens) than a 1xAAA light. 

A nice example is the Sunlite Slim2 2xAAA penlight. Just took delivery of one this week- very slender and only 4.5 in. long. Very high quality light, and puts out 40+ lumens out the front. I will look into the Preon and LD05, also. :twothumbs


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## kts (Oct 24, 2009)

DigMe said:


> Has Fenix always directly copied other manufacturers or is this a first for them?
> 
> brad


 
Why is this a copy, they dont even look alike or use same emitter?

Fenix is the one getting copied...

Why do the quarks and others use the same UI as Fenix have been using for years???..


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## EngrPaul (Oct 24, 2009)

Perhaps this is a conflict of interest arising between Fenix and 4Sevens, time will tell.

I do recall seeing prototypes of the Preon mistakenly (?) photographed when showing the new titanium Quarks.

Did one manufacturer see the other's product along the way and allow it to influence their design? Maybe. That doesn't mean any rules were broken. 

I would think one manufacturer would INTENTIONALLY make their product look different than the other's if possible, to avoid looking like a copy cat.

However, if the price of a Preon was determined considering knowledge of the Fenix pricing, I can see how that would lead to a strain on the relationship between what was Fenix Store and Fenix Light.


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## Kestrel (Oct 24, 2009)

Woods Walker said:


> Not sure as to the point of a 2XAAA light. The only reason why I like 1xAAA is smaller size.


I actually find a 1xAAA very difficult to handle/use (especially operating it one-handed), but my 2xAAA LD01/SL SP rides in my shirt pocket constantly, a great penlight that I use every day. I think that the two different versions complement each other and don't really compete. My two lumens, :shrug:


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## tnforever (Oct 24, 2009)

Also, the 2xAAA is the classical penlight isn't it? If for nothing else other than the wow factor (Friend: "Oh, it's one of those sucky penlights" *You turn it* Friend: "Oh my...!") it's pretty cool

It's slimmer than a 2xAA which makes it easier to carry around slim places (emergency kits, in your pen cup, in a pocket for people who have to wear button up shirts, etc etc) 

I can certainly see the appeal, especially if it's configurable to 1xAAA for EDC keychain, and turns to 2xAAA for normal use...


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## xcel730 (Oct 24, 2009)

I definitely see the appeal for a 2xAAA penlight. I wear a suit for work on a daily basis for work. On my suit jacket, I have a pen pouch next to my left chest pocket. Guess what I'll be putting there?


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## Saint_Dogbert (Oct 24, 2009)

Woods Walker said:


> Not sure as to the point of a 2XAAA light. The only reason why I like 1xAAA is smaller size.



Then don't buy one. Main reason AAA appeal to me is the small diameter and lighter weight, not so much length. I'd probably get a 2xAAA, but then the aluminum Peron kits come with both bodies, as has already been mentioned.


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## DigMe (Oct 24, 2009)

kts said:


> Why is this a copy, they dont even look alike



Wow...are you serious?! Apparently you haven't seen the Preon II. Let me help you out:

Preon II (middle)






LD05





How you could say that they do not look-alike is beyond me. Perhaps you are visually impaired and if that is the case I sincerely apologize. 



kts said:


> Fenix is the one getting copied...



I'll quote David from 4sevens on this one: "However, we (4sevens) regrettably showed some pictures of prototypes [to Fenix] months ago. " 



> Why do the quarks and others use the same UI as Fenix have been using for years???..



I don't know. Ask 4sevens. I didn't say that Quarks don't copy Fenix lights...I have no Quarks nor do I have any Fenix lights. I just asked if Fenix has direct-copied before or if this was the first time. I was only referring to copying the body, not the emitter. There is undeniably some copying going on though.

brad


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## applevision (Oct 24, 2009)

I am so excited about these new Preons! 

I do feel bad for Fenix in a way--at least here at CPF, the LD05 has been overshadowed it seems!

I'm thinking that a 2AAA light is not quite what I wanted but I went ahead and pulled trigger on the black kit and the blue kit so I can keep one as a single AAA and one as a double... But I'm just not feeling it for the LD05, though I love Fenix in general.

Now, I can't wait to see what *HKJ* has to say about these when he gets them!

So the BIG comparo now has to include the LD01 (old faithful!) and of course the Maratac AAA (which has had a *very* active thread!).

Currently, after many moons of loving and carrying my LD01SS, I have switched to the Maratac natural Al and never looked back! It's SO small and SO bright... I love it... but the Preons look amazing (though they will be bigger than the Maratacs) and so it all comes down to brightness, runtime, and overall feel/UI... I think the Preon could unseat the Maratac... what do you guys think?! :thinking:

(Sorry I'm all manic!!)


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## DigMe (Oct 24, 2009)

I would guess that the makers of Maratac will probably follow suit and make an identical light except with XP-G. I think there is still a place for Maratac and iTP as long as they are 20 to 25 bucks while these others are 45 to 50 bucks. Also the extremely small size will surely remain appealing to many. 

brad


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## rumack (Oct 24, 2009)

Am I missing something here - neither of these 2xAAA lights accept L92 lithiums?

Operating voltage ranges:
Preon2: 0.9V - 3.0V
LD05: 1.8V - 3.2V

I normally use NiMH but I like having L92 as an option, especially since I am trying to avoid alkalines because of leaks.


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## Crenshaw (Oct 24, 2009)

somehow, i feel there will be some future problems with 4sevens being dealer for so many lights, and at the same time manufacturor for some of the awesomest lights to hit the market recently. Conflict of interest. 4sevens gets to see EVERYTHING, and then fill in the gaps. Nothing illegal, or even wrong about it, but i can see manufacturors being slightly miffed.

Crenshaw


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## HighLumens (Oct 24, 2009)

Can Preons and LD05 tailstand??


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## Henk_Lu (Oct 24, 2009)

rumack said:


> Am I missing something here - neither of these 2xAAA lights accept L92 lithiums?
> 
> Operating voltage ranges:
> Preon2: 0.9V - 3.0V
> ...



Officially, the L92 have 1,5 Volt nominal...

Yes, I know that they go up to 1,7 Volt, but, why does Energizer claim 1,5 Volt? If I weren't on CPF, I wouldn't know they have more voltage and I would put them in flashlights or other evices without thinking I do something that could damage my device.

If I kill my device, the fault is clearly at Energizer! Someone would have gotten them into court already and they would have changed the nominal voltage, if problems could arise. The manufacturer of any device taking 2 x AAA (or AA) can limit the voltage to 3 Volt as no battery supposed to bet it working has more than 1,5 Volt. On the other hand, you can never be sure, variations of 10% minimum should be calculated.

Conclusion : The L91/L92 are marked 1,5 Volt as you can put them in any device without endangering it. The reason the nominal volatge is 1,5 Volt and not 1,7 Volt is, that customers wouldn't trust it otherwise. My Preons will have to work with the Lithiums, I banned Alkalines from our home and use LSD whenever possible, Lithiums if I need longer runtime or in devices I don't use on a regular basis.


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## EngrPaul (Oct 24, 2009)

To the previous post, I have a mp3 player that takes 1AA. It will not run on NiMH rechargeables, voltage too low. It will not run on e2L, voltage too high. It only runs on alkaline!

In many devices, I can get better performance from e2L. TV remote controls work at a greater distance, my wireless weather thermometer transmitter has greater range and works all winter long.

The best thing about e2L AA's is the reduced weight of the flashlight. It's not so great a difference in AAA's. Even so, I'd like to know I can use them. 

Perhaps under load they drop to an acceptable voltage? :tinfoil:


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## Pekka (Oct 24, 2009)

Pros for Fenix eh? The steel could be one for some, it's heavier than ti (leans towards a head-heavy light) and should hold it's shine slightly better. Also galvanic corrosion is much less of an issue with steel than with ti.


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## Pekka (Oct 24, 2009)

Henk_Lu said:


> Officially, the L92 have 1,5 Volt nominal...
> 
> Yes, I know that they go up to 1,7 Volt, but, why does Energizer claim 1,5 Volt? If I weren't on CPF, I wouldn't know they have more voltage and I would put them in flashlights or other evices without thinking I do something that could damage my device.
> 
> If I kill my device, the fault is clearly at Energizer! Someone would have gotten them into court already and they would have changed the nominal voltage, if problems could arise.


Also, officially they are slightly above the voltage of alkies. Go figure.
Also, Energizer has a "if our product kills yours stuff we will cover your loss" statement (or at least had last time I checked).

On a half-related note, my new Duracell M3:s measure 1,55 volts...



EngrPaul said:


> Perhaps under load they drop to an acceptable voltage? :tinfoil:


Under moderate load and when not drained, no. When drained or loaded heavily (everyone uses max output 24/7 right?) maybe...


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## Woods Walker (Oct 24, 2009)

applevision said:


> I am so excited about these new Preons!
> 
> I do feel bad for Fenix in a way--at least here at CPF, the LD05 has been overshadowed it seems!


 
Yea I have the itp and it rocks. I wish they would drop the same LED in the LD01 as the LD05 or Preon and add a real low level.


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## applevision (Oct 24, 2009)

DigMe said:


> I would guess that the makers of Maratac will probably follow suit and make an identical light except with XP-G. I think there is still a place for Maratac and iTP as long as they are 20 to 25 bucks while these others are 45 to 50 bucks. Also the extremely small size will surely remain appealing to many.
> 
> brad


Nice. I think you are right. I cannot wait to see all the comparisons coming soon! It was getting a little quiet around here...



EngrPaul said:


> To the previous post, I have a mp3 player that takes 1AA. It will not run on NiMH rechargeables, voltage too low. It will not run on e2L, voltage too high. It only runs on alkaline!
> 
> In many devices, I can get better performance from e2L. TV remote controls work at a greater distance, my wireless weather thermometer transmitter has greater range and works all winter long.
> 
> The best thing about e2L AA's is the reduced weight of the flashlight. It's not so great a difference in AAA's. Even so, I'd like to know I can use them.


*EngrPaul*, I totally agree. Not to get too OT, but I continue to struggle with wanting "guilt free lumens" from my Eneloops, but always feeling that their performance is just not up to snuff compared to an e2L... and the weight issue is a serious one for a tiny keychain or pocket light too! Oh well... I wish it weren't so!


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## defloyd77 (Oct 25, 2009)

I love penlights but honestly, neither of these lights do anything for me. For me a penlight should be a simple forward click on and off. No turning on in Survivorman ninja mode and no accidental mode changes if you happen to do 2 or more momentary presses within 3 seconds. This is why I'd rather get either the Sunlite Slim2 or the Peak Eiger with the 2AAA body and momentary switch.

Now if either 4Sevens or Fenix made one with their 2 mode loose head low, tight head high, I'd be totally on board.


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## Swedpat (Oct 25, 2009)

DigMe said:


> LD05
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am surprised that this light has not been knowned by me until now. But then I understand why: Fenixstore doesn't seem to carry it. But I find it at Fenixtactical. I like the brightness levels of 4, 32 and 100 lumens.
Do anyone know how it works, is it the same function as usual? Do the levels come in 4 - 32 and then 100 lumens order?

Regards, Patric


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## defloyd77 (Oct 25, 2009)

Med, low then high.


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## Henk_Lu (Oct 25, 2009)

defloyd77 said:


> Med, low then high.



While I normally would disagree on that sequence, I like it on my P1D-Q5 which I carry in my coat. It makes it a one-mode if you want to, turn it n and you get a reasonable amount of light.

I would preffer it on a penlight as well! One more point for the Fenix!


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## Swedpat (Oct 25, 2009)

Ok, thanks!

Now I also see that I actually didn't miss it. It's announced first time a few days ago and isn't yet available. http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=202326

Regards, Patric


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## HKJ (Oct 25, 2009)

DigMe said:


> Wow...are you serious?! Apparently you haven't seen the Preon II. Let me help you out:
> 
> Preon II (middle)
> 
> ...



Yes, they look alike, like any penlight will: A tube with a led in one end and a switch in the other end.

Looking at the details they are different, the switch does not look alike, the clip is different, the LD05 looks like the tube is in two parts (or it might just be a decoration).
Fenix might or might not have been inspired by 7777 picture, but I will not call it a copy.




applevision said:


> Now, I can't wait to see what *HKJ* has to say about these when he gets them!



That will probably have to be a lot, I expect to do a stand alone review (in Danish as usual) an a beamshot/measurement in English. Something like I did with MaraTac/ITP (Review, beamshot).



applevision said:


> So the BIG comparo now has to include the LD01 (old faithful!) and of course the Maratac AAA (which has had a *very* active thread!).



The big one will have to include more lights than that, but the update will not be done yet.


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## Pekka (Oct 25, 2009)

defloyd77 said:


> Now if either 4Sevens or Fenix made one with their 2 mode loose head low, tight head high, I'd be totally on board.



I'm not sure if it's feasible option to have adjustment head in a AAA light. Also, by going into singlemode territory you would probably end with more problems than solutions: "I want max 100 lumens!" "I want low low!" "I want something else!"

On the other hand, if they could do programmable dualmode in the Quark-style I'd be all over it. :rock:




HKJ said:


> Fenix might or might not have been inspired by 7777 picture, but I will not call it a copy.


Fear not, for I will call it a clone for you. A clicky silver-black-silver triplemode with a clip identical to the prototypes, it's better made clone than dx:s if I ever saw one... Hell, they're even identical to the fact that I'm not allowed any primaries besides alkies!


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## Lunal_Tic (Oct 25, 2009)

Do either of these have a normal (forward) clickie? I just got the 4Sevens email about the Preon but didn't see that information specified in the sales literature. (just an aside but it would be nice if all manufacturers specified the type of switch in an easily findable location)

TIA for the info.
-LT


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## BreathingMeat (Oct 26, 2009)

The Preon 2xAAA looks really interesting, but for my uses it would be best if the modes were med-hi-low.

Pardon my ignorance on the subject, but is it reasonably possible (for someone with a fair amount of experience with micro-controllers) to hack the chip to change the modes?

I have no idea how much of this goes on.


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## lolzertank (Oct 26, 2009)

BreathingMeat said:


> Pardon my ignorance on the subject, but is it reasonably possible (for someone with a fair amount of experience with micro-controllers) to hack the chip to change the modes?



It's probably possible, given that the light has PWM controlled modes, but with AAA sized lights, the package type of the microcontroller will probably be LLP or some other ridiculously small, possibly leadless package. The electronics could also be potted with epoxy. If it's possible, it won't be easy.


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## jag-engr (Oct 26, 2009)

Personally, I'd go with the Preon simply because of it's UI. In my opinion, it has the best UI of any traditional style flashlight (the ZebraLight H501 may have a better UI).

I don't know why everyone loves medium to come on first. I suspect I will use medium the most, too, but I don't mind clicking again to get to it. However, I would not want it to come on at medium in the middle of the night - that would damage my night vision.




Crenshaw said:


> somehow, i feel there will be some future problems with 4sevens being dealer for so many lights,... Nothing illegal, or even wrong about it, but i can see manufacturors being slightly miffed.


I see your point, but I don't see Fenix parting ways with 4sevens any time soon - I'm pretty sure he's still their best distributor!


FWIW, 4sevens has responded in the other thread that two L92's will be fine in the 2XAAA format.


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## BreathingMeat (Oct 26, 2009)

jag-engr said:


> Personally, I'd go with the Preon simply because of it's UI. In my opinion, it has the best UI of any traditional style flashlight (the ZebraLight H501 may have a better UI).



So you've used one, then?



> I don't know why everyone loves medium to come on first. I suspect I will use medium the most, too, but I don't mind clicking again to get to it. However, I would not want it to come on at medium in the middle of the night - that would damage my night vision.



Pretty sure it's not everyone, but in my case, I'd be using it on the job and don't really give a rat's patootie about night vision. Currently, I'm using a Streamlight StylusPro for work with its (fiendishly clever) single-mode of operation. Click it on while pulling it out of the pocket, quick check of whatever I need to see, click it off while re-inserting back in the pocket. No fuss, no muss. If I have to click through a bunch of modes to get to a reasonable level of light, it's just not worth it. I'll stick with the StylusPro.


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## sol-leks (Oct 26, 2009)

It just depends on how you are going to use it. I don't care about night vision as much, but I feel like a jerk when I go to use it in a dark restaurant or bar or movie theater and I turn on a light with 25-35 lumens in medium and suddenly blind everyone.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 26, 2009)

Really is an effortless thing to do a quick double twist to get to medium. I always did this maneuver when I was carrying my L0D since the lower medium setting was the one I used the most and it was no bother at all.

The greatest number of CPFer's prefere L>M>H and it's the one that works just fine for those with the facility to do a double, or even triple twist to get to high immediately. 

How do I know? Because, as I already said, I did it on a daily basis for about a year before retiring my beloved L0D for a light with a low setting.


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## BreathingMeat (Oct 26, 2009)

lolzertank said:


> It's probably possible, given that the light has PWM controlled modes, but with AAA sized lights, the package type of the microcontroller will probably be LLP or some other ridiculously small, possibly leadless package. The electronics could also be potted with epoxy. If it's possible, it won't be easy.



Ah, thanks. I could probably deal with an LLP as I have the tools at work for doing micro-surgery, but potting would really put a damper on the idea (forgot about that nasty stuff).


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## 1138 (Oct 26, 2009)

I'm more interested in the LD05. Absolutely no mention of strobe mode, nominally brighter medium and costs less in Canada from what I can see. Plus it's available from more than one dealer.


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## Nitroz (Oct 26, 2009)

Crenshaw said:


> somehow, i feel there will be some future problems with 4sevens being dealer for so many lights, and at the same time manufacturor for some of the awesomest lights to hit the market recently. Conflict of interest. 4sevens gets to see EVERYTHING, and then fill in the gaps. Nothing illegal, or even wrong about it, but i can see manufacturors being slightly miffed.
> 
> Crenshaw



Hopefully he will just branch out on his own and do what he is doing now. He has great ideas of his own that are original and fresh, I can see him doing well anywhere in the world that he decides to sell his products.


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## Swedpat (Oct 26, 2009)

I agree with you 1138. I will go for LD05. 32 lumens mid is perfect, and free from that annoying stupid strobe! :twothumbs

Regards, Patric


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## defloyd77 (Oct 26, 2009)

kaichu dento said:


> Really is an effortless thing to do a quick double twist to get to medium. I always did this maneuver when I was carrying my L0D since the lower medium setting was the one I used the most and it was no bother at all.
> 
> The greatest number of CPFer's prefere L>M>H and it's the one that works just fine for those with the facility to do a double, or even triple twist to get to high immediately.
> 
> How do I know? Because, as I already said, I did it on a daily basis for about a year before retiring my beloved L0D for a light with a low setting.



The L,M,H vs. M,L,H horse has already been beat to death in many previous threads, Fenix themselves stated more people preferred medium first.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 26, 2009)

This thread is the first I knew about either of these lights.

MY preference is whatever mode comes first does NOT have noticeable flickering PWM!

My LOD bothers the heck out of me in med. or low. My P2D has no where near as low a low, but no PWM flicker either! And comes first with head loose.

I shall need to see reviews on these lights.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 26, 2009)

defloyd77 said:


> The L,M,H vs. M,L,H horse has already been beat to death in many previous threads, Fenix themselves stated more people preferred medium first.


Then don't bring it up. Others keep mentioning it and I'm not going to just sit by and let them keep harping at us about it. Plus I notice that even though you're trying to silence me on the subject you still found time to stick your opinion in at the end. 

CPF (which is here) found L>M>H to be the most favored.

Swedepat, there is no annoying strobe modes on the Preons unless you go looking for them. Use it normally and you'll never see them. :thumbsup:


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## defloyd77 (Oct 26, 2009)

kaichu dento said:


> CPF (which is here) found L>M>H to be the most favored.



Show me where the majority of CPF stated they prefer low first. I'm not trying to silence you, I'm stating the fact that Fenix uses medium first because more people prefer that.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 26, 2009)

defloyd77 said:


> Show me where the majority of CPF stated they prefer low first. I'm not trying to silence you, I'm stating the fact that Fenix uses medium first because more people prefer that.


You're not stating a fact; you're stating an unsupported opinion.

Here are the numbers.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/147094&highlight=preference

Six to one in favor of L>M>H over M>L>H.


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## applevision (Oct 26, 2009)

Swedpat said:


> I agree with you 1138. I will go for LD05. 32 lumens mid is perfect, and free from that annoying stupid strobe! :twothumbs
> 
> Regards, Patric



Hey *Patric*, the only thing I'd point out here is that the claimed 32 lumens may well be more like something in the 20s, and this may be almost impossible to distinguish from 4sevens' actual emitter lumens in medium... just food for thought...


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## defloyd77 (Oct 26, 2009)

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2677172&postcount=61


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## kaichu dento (Oct 26, 2009)

defloyd77 said:


> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2677172&postcount=61


Your quote only shows a statement made in reference to overall sales and has nothing to do with CPF.

The fact you ignore the stats in the poll shows you're only trying to silence any opposition to your personal preference. If you really wanted to quit beating the dead horse you could have done so from the start.

CPF preference is six to one favoring L>M>H, which is why David is offering it that way instead of Fenix decision to stay with M>L>H as their non-flashaholic offering.


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## 1138 (Oct 26, 2009)

applevision said:


> Hey *Patric*, the only thing I'd point out here is that the claimed 32 lumens may well be more like something in the 20s, and this may be almost impossible to distinguish from 4sevens' actual emitter lumens in medium... just food for thought...



I didn't notice that the Preon 2xAAA was 22 lumens mid level. Still, the LD05 doesn't have strobe at all.


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## defloyd77 (Oct 26, 2009)

kaichu dento said:


> Your quote only shows a statement made in reference to overall sales and has nothing to do with CPF.
> 
> The fact you ignore the stats in the poll shows you're only trying to silence any opposition to your personal preference. If you really wanted to quit beating the dead horse you could have done so from the start.
> 
> CPF preference is six to one favoring L>M>H, which is why David is offering it that way instead of Fenix decision to stay with M>L>H as their non-flashaholic offering.



CPF is only a fraction of sales PERIOD. There IS a world beyond CPF you know.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 27, 2009)

defloyd77 said:


> The L,M,H vs. M,L,H horse has already been beat to death in many previous threads...


Indicating that you didn't want to hear anymore about it...


defloyd77 said:


> Show me where the majority of CPF stated they prefer low first.


Showing that you were interested in my statement that the majority of CPFer's had said preference...


defloyd77 said:


> CPF is only a fraction of sales PERIOD. There IS a world beyond CPF you know.


And now this ridiculously childish post insinuating that I know nothing of the world at large.

How can we have a civil discussion if you ignore everything put before you? We are now in a thread on CPF and the local preference, by a margin of 6 to 1, is for L>M>H.

I've not insulted you and have stated only the prevailing preference and it is probably best that we not go any further down this path, but rather let the thread go back to it's intended purpose. :kiss:


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## defloyd77 (Oct 27, 2009)

It is a fact that the med first vs low first has been discussed on here many, many times and the fact that Fenix still has medium first says a lot, so lets just agree that Fenix tends to target a larger "Joe Average" crowd and 4sevens is targeting the smaller CPF (albeit large) crowd.


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## Marduke (Oct 27, 2009)

You're confusng two different things. L-M-H is the prefered UI, but M is the prefered level for EDC tasks. Fenix stated a while ago (no, I'm not spending hours seaching for a single post from years ago) they went with the most used level as they polled instead of the favored UI.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 27, 2009)

Children, BEHAVE!

No light I have besides LOD starts in medium. ALL my multi level drop ins, WolfEyes Sniper, L1 and P2 start low first.

It is no big hairy deal one way or the other. I suppose it would be nice if there was a choice. But at the price point I doubt it.


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## Phaserburn (Oct 27, 2009)

I'm actually looking at the LD05 instead of the Preon; I want my light to be able to run on high without heat issues for more than a few moments at a time, and the lower "high" output of the Fenix seems like it may be better suited to that idea.


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## Jida (Oct 27, 2009)

If medium is first then that becomes the 'low' for most people.

Generally, people will not pop off the light and cycle to the low setting. They actually want a 2 mode light and in practice, it is a 1 mode light.

Not everyone, it is just the general use for those lights.

If the sequence is 50>2.5>100 then that light was bought for the 50 lumens by the majority of people out there. Not just CPF folks, your general populace.

The 2.5 is an un-needed mode to get to the 'wow' mode to show people.

For practical purposes I cannot see a time where I would want to start at 50 and then drop to 2.5 however I can see many occasions for a particular light to start at 2.5 and then ramp to 50 and then 100.

Mainly, battery life in a small light that comes on in the most frugal mode is key for me.

If the light starts at 50 lumens then I want 50 lumens from that light at all times ready to go. There is not going to be a need for me to go to 2.5 in that same light AFTER the 50.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 27, 2009)

defloyd77 said:


> ...lets just agree that Fenix tends to target a larger "Joe Average" crowd and 4sevens is targeting the smaller CPF (albeit large) crowd.


Yeah, I'd have to agree with that statement! 

Where's my popcorn...


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## Swedpat (Oct 27, 2009)

applevision said:


> Hey *Patric*, the only thing I'd point out here is that the claimed 32 lumens may well be more like something in the 20s, and this may be almost impossible to distinguish from 4sevens' actual emitter lumens in medium... just food for thought...



Hi,

I will see how I experience the brightness levels. I think anyway that the spacing between brightnesses is quite good for LD05. 20lm will also be good for main use between 4 and 100lm. If these numbers are more correct...

I find the new Nitecore EZ models very attractive. The only drawback in my opinion is that the levels are too low or too high for a general use. For example EZAA. 10 or 130 lumens. For me it feels like "all or nothing" modes. 
Also Preon 2AAA with the mid and high 22 and 160lm feels to large spaced. 
LD05 has in this case more usable brightness settings. In my opinion.

Regards, Patric


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## Marduke (Oct 27, 2009)

That is the whole point of logarithmic spacing. The levels visually make sense when going through. Each level actually looks significantly brighter I stead of being just noticibly brighter. 

Remember, it takes roughly a 4x increase to look just twice as bright.


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## travelinman (Oct 27, 2009)

Marduke said:


> That is the whole point of logarithmic spacing. The levels visually make sense when going through. Each level actually looks significantly brighter I stead of being just noticibly brighter.
> 
> Remember, it takes roughly a 4x increase to look just twice as bright.



That's why photons are so similar to neurons.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 27, 2009)

Swedpat said:


> I find the new Nitecore EZ models very attractive. The only drawback in my opinion is that the levels are too low or too high for a general use. For example EZAA. 10 or 130 lumens. For me it feels like "all or nothing" modes.


I really like the EZAAw and although I'm once again carrying it, had gone back to the D10 for a while because of it's lack of a low setting. An EZAAw that would go down to 1 lumen with 3 levels would be great though.


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## Swedpat (Oct 27, 2009)

kaichu dento said:


> I really like the EZAAw and although I'm once again carrying it, had gone back to the D10 for a while because of it's lack of a low setting. An EZAAw that would go down to 1 lumen with 3 levels would be great though.



I agree with that would be a good alternative. But for a general use setting I consider 10lm as too dim and 130lm will makes too short runtime. And I think it's ok if the spacing is larger between the ultralow and mid, than mid and high. Therefore I personally would prefer 1, 30 and 130 lumens as the options in this case. 

Regards, Patric


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## kaichu dento (Oct 27, 2009)

Swedpat said:


> I agree with that would be a good alternative. But for a general use setting I consider 10lm as too dim and 130lm will makes too short runtime. And I think it's ok if the spacing is larger between the ultralow and mid, than mid and high. Therefore I personally would prefer 1, 30 and 130 lumens as the options in this case.
> 
> Regards, Patric


I find the present low serviceable, but like you, wish it could be both higher and lower at the same time.

The levels you just described, 1>30>130 would be the best thing NiteCore could add to the EZAA.


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## recDNA (Nov 7, 2009)

Does the one battery version of the Preon use a clicky or twisty?


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## Marduke (Nov 7, 2009)

recDNA said:


> Does the one battery version of the Preon use a clicky or twisty?



It can use either.


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## Yapo (Nov 7, 2009)

just wondering has anyone noticed the significant difference in length between the preon and the fenix?
Preon is 5.05in/128mm
Fenix is 5.9in/149.5mm


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## mightysparrow (Nov 8, 2009)

Yapo said:


> just wondering has anyone noticed the significant difference in length between the preon and the fenix?
> Preon is 5.05in/128mm
> Fenix is 5.9in/149.5mm


 
Yes- the length difference is one factor I've considered in deciding which one to buy, for now. Might get both, in the end.....I'll see how the Preon works for me on the various output levels, first.


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## olrac (Nov 8, 2009)

I got the preon I with a black preon II body for nine dollars extra (before CPF discount) and I get the best of both worlds. Can't do that with the LD05


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## recDNA (Nov 8, 2009)

So if I order the Preon 1 AAA Titanium it comes with a tail switch clicky included?


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## HKJ (Nov 8, 2009)

recDNA said:


> So if I order the Preon 1 AAA Titanium it comes with a tail switch clicky included?



According to 7777 the 1 AAA includes a twisty and you have to buy the clicky as an extra.
If you buy aluminum you get both included.


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## fwellers (Nov 10, 2009)

Thanks to this great forum and all the knowledgable people on it. I just ordered my first 'cool' flashlight. After agonizing and doing my best to get halfway up to speed on these things, I sent $50 to 4-7's for the titanium preon 1. :twothumbs:twothumbs

Thanks !
Floyd


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## Perfectionist (Nov 10, 2009)

Hope yall will write up a full review of the Preon when ya receive it !! lovecpf


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## davidt1 (Nov 10, 2009)

I was all set on the Preon kit until I noticed the low medium of 8 lumens for the single AAA version. Please tell me I am wrong. I don't want 8 lumens for medium.


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## defloyd77 (Nov 10, 2009)

davidt1 said:


> I was all set on the Preon kit until I noticed the low medium of 8 lumens for the single AAA version. Please tell me I am wrong. I don't want 8 lumens for medium.



8.5 lumens OTF for the Preon 1, which would be roughly equal to 13.6 emitter lumens. 22 OTF lumens for the Preon 2, which would be roughly equal to 35 at the emitter.


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## davidt1 (Nov 10, 2009)

That sounds a lot lower than the medium on my beloved Maratac. Don't you people think it's strange that the medium of the single Preon is so low?


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## defloyd77 (Nov 10, 2009)

davidt1 said:


> That sounds a lot lower than the medium on my beloved Maratac. Don't you people think it's strange that the medium of the single Preon is so low?



13.6 vs. 18 is a lot lower? Only 4.4 lumens lower. The Preon also runs 2 hours longer.


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## Marduke (Nov 10, 2009)

The 47's levels are set in accordance with the human logarithmic perception of brightness, and look seamless and perfectly sensible in person.


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## davidt1 (Nov 10, 2009)

Marduke said:


> The 47's levels are set in accordance with the human logarithmic perception of brightness, and look seamless and perfectly sensible in person.



My Maratac isn't set like that, I don't think. The levels are very sensible to me. I don't want to start an argument, but you haven't seen the levels of the single Preon yet.


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## kaichu dento (Nov 11, 2009)

davidt1 said:


> That sounds a lot lower than the medium on my beloved Maratac. Don't you people think it's strange that the medium of the single Preon is so low?


It sounds low to me for most people, but with it being OTF lumens changes the game compared to most of the figures we've grown accustomed to and I'm going to wait until mine gets here to decide. You should wait and see what the rest of us think before committing if you have any doubts.


Marduke said:


> The 47's levels are set in accordance with the human logarithmic perception of brightness, and look seamless and perfectly sensible in person.


This is what I've been assuming all along and although each of us would make varying choices in absolute output levels, I'm still optimistic about the levels David chose too.


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## kaichu dento (Nov 11, 2009)

davidt1 said:


> My Maratac isn't set like that, I don't think. The levels are very sensible to me. I don't want to start an argument, but you haven't seen the levels of the single Preon yet.


Just remember, there are more ways than one to come up with lumens ratings and that throws a monkey wrench into any conversation where the same methods are not being used. 

To compare apples and citrus, some could say that apples are sour and lemons sweet, and both would be right depending on the scale of sweet to sour rating they wanted to use for each.

Surefire is famous for having very decent output which belies their deceptively conservative output ratings. Let some of us buy the lights first and wait to see our impressions before buying. Besides, you've got your Maratac to hold you over!


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## defloyd77 (Nov 11, 2009)

davidt1 said:


> My Maratac isn't set like that, I don't think. The levels are very sensible to me. I don't want to start an argument, but you haven't seen the levels of the single Preon yet.



Maratac, 1.5, 18 and 80 Preon 2.88, 13.6 and 112 (these numbers are calculated by taking the OTF rating and multiplying by 1.6, 4Sevens' mathematical formula for comparing OTF to emitter lumens).

Except for the higher high, the levels are pretty much spaced the same.


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## ozner1991 (Nov 15, 2009)

so its been a while since the preon was released

anyone doing tests for an review yet?


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## Marduke (Nov 15, 2009)

ozner1991 said:


> so its been a while since the preon was released
> 
> anyone doing tests for an review yet?


A while? It only shipped last week for most people, and they were Ti versions.


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## defloyd77 (Nov 15, 2009)

Marduke said:


> A while? It only shipped last week for most people, and they were Ti versions.



That's a bazillion years in CPFland


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## spoonrobot (Nov 20, 2009)

If anyone else is curious, Greg from Brightguy just got back to me and responded that the LD05 is a reverse clicky.


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## swrdply400mrelay (Nov 20, 2009)

BentHeadTX said:


> I can see doctors liking the 2AAA titanium Preon
> 
> It comes on at default 0.8 lumens to check the eyes and they can click it to higher outputs for throat (etc) Throw it in some 10% bleach to decontaminate and press on.


 

I asked David for a neutral emitter in the Preon II for that purpose, because the super white washes out any abnormalities such as redness or pus. So far, no neutral emitter for the Preon II


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## flatline (Nov 20, 2009)

swrdply400mrelay said:


> I asked David for a neutral emitter in the Preon II for that purpose, because the super white washes out any abnormalities such as redness or pus. So far, no neutral emitter for the Preon II



My wife uses a LF2XT for testing pupil reaction and looking in people's throats (if she's not using her scope). She likes the tint fine, but no LED can compete with the full spectrum scopes for detecting subtle differences in color.

--flatline


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## Bimmerboy (Nov 23, 2009)

spoonrobot said:


> If anyone else is curious, Greg from Brightguy just got back to me and responded that the LD05 is a reverse clicky.


Oh, I soooo freakin' hope not!  Reverse clickies just SUCK! I'm counting on the LD05 being a forward clicky, not just for myself, but also for Christmas gifting to someone who prefers forward as well.

According to the Fenix ad, it states *"Stainless steel pushbutton cap for momentary on and constant on/off"*. Sounds like a forward clicky to me... sure hope it is.

Death to reverse clickies! :thumbsdow


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## kwkarth (Nov 23, 2009)

defloyd77 said:


> Maratac, 1.5, 18 and 80 Preon 2.88, 13.6 and 112 (these numbers are calculated by taking the OTF rating and multiplying by 1.6, 4Sevens' mathematical formula for comparing OTF to emitter lumens).
> 
> Except for the higher high, the levels are pretty much spaced the same.



OTF and multiplying by 1.6???? That's crazy to trust that. That' not a hard and fast rule. You really have no idea what the losses are with the optical system in the Maratac, and that's why is always better to actually measure and publish OTF specs. Then you know without any doubt what your output really is. If you want emitter specs, look at the led spec sheet.


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## kwkarth (Nov 23, 2009)

flatline said:


> My wife uses a LF2XT for testing pupil reaction and looking in people's throats (if she's not using her scope). She likes the tint fine, but no LED can compete with the full spectrum scopes for detecting subtle differences in color.
> 
> --flatline



Have you looked at the output of a Q3-5A/5B?? In what way was it deficient?


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## flatline (Nov 23, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> Have you looked at the output of a Q3-5A/5B?? In what way was it deficient?



Sorry if I gave the impression that there was something deficient with the LF2XT's 4C tint. She says it's great for throats and rashes. She has a scope with a lamp that's supposed to mimic the spectrum of sunlight. Sometimes when she wants to be certain that she's seeing (or not seeing) something properly, she'll pull it out after using the LF2XT. It's not that the 4C is deficient, it's more that seeing the same rash with two different tints can sometimes make important details more clearly defined.

Now to answer your actual question: she's never tried any of my 5A or 5C lights (don't own a 5B). They're all enough bigger than the LF2XT that she's not interested in putting them in her white coat pocket.

--flatline


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Nov 23, 2009)

Perhaps the UI of these new lights favors a forward switch.

But bite your tongue "death to reverse clickys"

My P2D L1D and L2D work fantastic with reverse. From low after ANY amount of time bump to medium. Would have to click a forward off and on again. PHOOEY!

That is why I have a Fenix forward switch in my box o stuff. I guess if my TK10 ever needs a switch.......


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## CrazyCarl (Nov 24, 2009)

I prefer a forward-clickie for single-mode flashlights. But for cycling through different modes, I would rather have a reverse clickie so I can tap the button to switch.

However, I think the best interface is what the Photon Freedom Light has. Click&release always gives full power. If you want less, starting from off you click and hold, and it will slowly increase brightness from zero, and you release when you get the preferred level.

The only other flashlight I know of with a similar deal is the Zebra I just got (h501?). It has 3 specific levels instead of Photon's fade-in control, but it's the same general operation.

ANYhoo... I like the design of the LD05, but I would rather have a different interface entirely. Either a simple single-mode, or a Zebra-like method.


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## defloyd77 (Nov 24, 2009)

kwkarth said:


> OTF and multiplying by 1.6???? That's crazy to trust that. That' not a hard and fast rule. You really have no idea what the losses are with the optical system in the Maratac, and that's why is always better to actually measure and publish OTF specs. Then you know without any doubt what your output really is. If you want emitter specs, look at the led spec sheet.



I'm not going to trust it, but it does give one somewhat of an idea. BTW, 4Sevens said 1.4-1.6, my mistake.


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## csshih (Nov 24, 2009)

got some pics!... used with permisson.

fenix appear throwier










hmm.. looks pretty similar


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## Zeruel (Nov 24, 2009)

LD-05 is so much bigger. 

It might make a good edc for magicians. :laughing:


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## jtrucktools34 (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks Craig!!!

Great Pics, lovecpflovecpf

These definately made my mind up for me. The Preon Rocks!


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## kts (Nov 24, 2009)

How is the switch on the LD05, Ive read that people complain over their Preons switch and badly cut threads?

I also like how Fenix used a deeper reflector, that actually fits around the LED compared to the Preons low reflector, that seems to have a hole that fits a larger LED?


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## Perfectionist (Nov 24, 2009)

Great Pics !! So far it seems the Preon pwns the LD05 !! 

Just need some beam-shots and run-time charts now to declare the "winner" !! :devil:


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## 4sevens (Nov 24, 2009)

Perfectionist said:


> Great Pics !! So far it seems the Preon pwns the LD05 !!
> 
> Just need some beam-shots and run-time charts now to declare the "winner" !! :devil:


Lots of people are asking for beamshots, we'll here ya go...
Left is Preon II, Right is LD05: (note that the camera auto-adjusts for exposure)

Both on low:








Both on medium:








Both on high:








Preon PWM is much much MUCH higher


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## madmook (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks for the pics! Would've been interested in one of these, but the extra length puts a damper on that.


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## PeaceOfMind (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks for the comparison 4Sevens. The Preon comes out looking pretty fantastic in those beamshots... the hotspot seems about the same lux on both, but the preon's is like twice the size - making it much more useful with the same throw. Very cool. Can't wait for my Aluminum Preon to ship.


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## Bimmerboy (Nov 24, 2009)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> But bite your tongue "death to reverse clickys"


True, that proclamation was a bit harsh. This kind of thing does fall under the "personal preference" category, so I'll just murder as many reverse clickies as possible on my own, and anyone can feel free to join me. :devil:



PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> My P2D L1D and L2D work fantastic with reverse. From low after ANY amount of time bump to medium. Would have to click a forward off and on again. PHOOEY!


That is a relatively neat method of mode changing, and can see how X amount of people would like it for the reason you give. In fact, I've been trying to convince myself that I _should_ like it in order to feel better about my eventual Preon purchase. But I have to ask myself two questions.

Realistically, how often am I actually going to need to change modes *while the light's already been on for a while*? My personal answer... almost never. If I need to see something, I consider it a very quick and easy judgement to determine what level I want for whatever I'm going to look at, and it stays there until I'm done. The corollary question to that is, is whatever miniscule amount of in-operation mode changing I might do worth giving up momentary operation if there's a choice? NO WAY! I's just luuuves me my momentary operation!

I dunno... maybe there are those who need to constantly change modes while using a torch. I seriously doubt they'd be anywhere near a majority, but would be interested in hearing about scenarios where this is necessary, and worth sacrificing momentary. It might help me see the other side... or reinforce my own reasoning behind what I say.


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## Swedpat (Nov 25, 2009)

When I look at the comparing beamshots I become very surprised. The medium of Preon seems to be twice as bright as the medium of LD05, though the stated values are 32lm for LD05 and 22lm for the Preon...

Also I wonder about the PWM. Is the frequence of Preon very high or is the frequence of LD05 very low? Anyone who knows the PWM frequence of these lights?

Regards, Patric


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## HKJ (Nov 25, 2009)

Swedpat said:


> When I look at the comparing beamshots I become very surprised. The medium of Preon seems to be twice as bright as the medium of LD05, though the stated values are 32lm for LD05 and 22lm for the Preon...



Preon is OTF lumen.



Swedpat said:


> Also I wonder about the PWM. Is the frequence of Preon very high or is the frequence of LD05 very low? Anyone who knows the PWM frequence of these lights?



THe Preon has a high pwm frequence, I measure 2.4 khz.


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## kwkarth (Nov 25, 2009)

HKJ said:


> Preon is OTF lumen.
> 
> 
> 
> THe Preon has a high pwm frequence, I measure 2.4 khz.



Lights done right! _*4Sevens*_:thumbsup:


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## B0wz3r (Nov 25, 2009)

Just FYI for those who are interested, the rate at which a light has to pulse in order to be seen as continuous is referred to in the study of visual perception as the CFF for 'critical flicker frequency' or 'critical fusion frequency'.

As a light gets brighter, the CFF rate must increase in order for it to be perceived as continuous because the increase in brightness results in an increase in contrast between the on and off of the flickers. 

In and of itself, the visual system has a lower and upper bound for how often an image has to be presented in order to appear to be moving smoothly. In terms of animation this translates to a frame rate of about 24 fps. Anything slower than that and motion appears to be discontinuous, getting more and more jerky and the frame rate decreases. This translates to a lower bound of about 45 ms per frame or stimulus presentation.

As an example of this is a psychophysical phenomenon called apparent motion. Take two dots of light that are presented on a computer screen a small distance apart, say 3 or 4 cm. 

-Present the first dot for 50 ms, extinguish it, then another 50 ms later, present the second dot for 50 ms. The observer will perceive two separate dots appear and disappear at the same time.

-Present the first dot for 50 ms, extinguish it, then another 75 ms later present the second dot. The observer will see the first dot start to move in the direction of the second but disappear briefly and reappear slightly before the actual position of the second dot and move to the actual position of the second dot before disappearing. This is called phi-motion.

-Present the first dot for 50 ms, extinguish it, then another 100 ms later present the second dot. The observer will see one dot that appears on the screen move across the screen to the actual location of the second dot without interruption and for the entire distance between the two dots, then disappear. In other words, it looks as if a single dot appears, moves contiguously across the screen to the second position, then disappears. This is call beta-motion. The dot is perceived to move across the intervening space between the two locations even though no such stimulus is ever actually physically presented.

-Present the first dot for 50 ms, extinguish it, then another 150 ms later present the second dot. The observer will see one dot appear then disappear, then the second dot appear and disappear. No illusory motion is perceived.

Now of course, as the brightness and other characteristics vary (as well as individual differences between observers) these time intervals will vary slightly, but they are remarkably consistent in terms of the range of values that are found through scientific observation of this phenomenon over literally 150 years worth of work on this perceptual phenomenon.

So if the pulse rate of the Preon is 2.4 KHz, that means each pulse is occurring about every .4 ms so even at the Preon's maximum output of 160 lumens, the flicker frequency is high enough for the light to be perceived as continuous in pretty much every situation it might be used/seen/observed in.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Nov 25, 2009)

I would venture to say that 2.4KHs is fast enough that even a PWM hater like me would not notice it.

If I see more than two fingers when I pass one in front of a light I do not like it very much.

That said I do not see a Preon or LD05 in my future.


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## Burgess (Nov 26, 2009)

David's (4Seven's) comparison photograph

of *PWM rates* is truly worth a Thousand Words !


:wow:__:goodjob:__:thanks:

_


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## damon (Nov 26, 2009)

just wondering can the 4Sevens Preon and the Fenix LD05 head interchangeable?


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## 4sevens (Nov 26, 2009)

Burgess said:


> David's (4Seven's) comparison photograph
> 
> of *PWM rates* is truly worth a Thousand Words !
> 
> ...



The PWM rate difference is about 20 to 1. The Fenix frequency is roughly 125hz.


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## kwkarth (Nov 26, 2009)

4sevens said:


> The PWM rate difference is about 20 to 1. The Fenix frequency is roughly 125hz.



That's a good pic David!!


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## Swedpat (Nov 26, 2009)

First I thought that LD05 was the best choice for me, but after have been reading this information and seen the pictures I think Preon is a better choice. The only thing I consider as a drawback is the large step between the mid and high. 160/22=7,3 times. I would prefer 100lm as the high level for better runtime, OR 40-50lm as mid brightness. 

Regards, Patric


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## Moonshadow (Nov 26, 2009)

> That's a good pic!!



It certainly is . . . but so good we have to see it twice in two successive posts ?? 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/247697


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## kaichu dento (Nov 26, 2009)

4sevens said:


> The PWM rate difference is about 20 to 1. The Fenix frequency is roughly 125hz.


Picture is worth a thousand words! :nana:


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## kwkarth (Nov 26, 2009)

Moonshadow said:


> It certainly is . . . but so good we have to see it twice in two successive posts ??
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/247697



There! Now you have it three times in case you missed the first two!


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## kwkarth (Nov 26, 2009)

Make that two times.


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## 4sevens (Nov 26, 2009)

Swedpat said:


> First I thought that LD05 was the best choice for me, but after have been reading this information and seen the pictures I think Preon is a better choice. The only thing I consider as a drawback is the large step between the mid and high. 160/22=7,3 times. I would prefer 100lm as the high level for better runtime, OR 40-50lm as mid brightness.
> 
> Regards, Patric


Actually you'd be very surprised. To the eyes it looks like twice as bright and not 7x. Which make the medium mode one of the most useful modes! I use that mode all the time - with awesome runtimes in medium


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## Swedpat (Nov 26, 2009)

4sevens said:


> Actually you'd be very surprised. To the eyes it looks like twice as bright and not 7x. Which make the medium mode one of the most useful modes! I use that mode all the time - with awesome runtimes in medium



Thanks for comment,

Yes, I know that the perceived brightness usually isn't proportional to the true brightness. 
In this case I take my Fenix LOD as a reference: the mid mode of stated 25lm is the most used and I consider that as a good allround brightness for a small light. Preon II with stated 22lm is OTF and therefore slightly brighter than Fenix LOD at the 25lm mode. 

Regards, Patric


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## half-watt (Nov 28, 2009)

rcv'd LD05 yesterday. waiting on the Al Preon kit. i'll use the Preon exclusively as a 2xAAA (so, why did i get the kit? i'm asking myself the same question). Since the Preon lacks the "moonlight" mode, an LF2XT is still required for those really low [white] light req'd situations.

i've been carrying the LF2XT and a LD01 head +SL StylusPro2xAAA body with some spare cells in a batt. caddy. due to two of the plastic retention springs on my 6xAAA battery caddy being overstressed and breaking through "fiddling" with them (fault mine), i needed to take a Dremel (cut-off wheel followed by grinding stone) to the caddy and it's now a 4xAAA caddy which is even easier to carry.


i had high hopes that the LD05 would replace my "franken-light", but that probably won't happen.


here's my observations on these two lights:

0. the following is based upon what i personally would want in a 2xAAA light and is not a comparison with other small lights (e.g., 1xCR2 or a small 1xCR123 twisty which i personally feel are superior performing lights, primarily due to the lithium power source and maximal brightness of CR123A lights).

1. LD05 is too long and too thick (as far as a 2xAAA light goes). 

2. my FL (aka "franken-light") is shorter by the length of the "head" of the LD05 and significantly thinner diameter. it is a so much smaller package. side-by-side, i wonder why the LD05 was designed to be a so much larger package. i shake my head in incredulity at the obvious difference in size.

3. the clickie is far superior on the LD05 - very nice, IMO. the SL clickie on the FL has a terrible feel - perhaps the worst clickie (that still reliably works) that comes to mind right now. the SL clickie *is* a Fwd. clickie.

4. low mode on the LD05 is far lower than than the LD01 head driven by 2xAAA alkaline (which o.p. light closer to what one would expect from a Li-ion powered LD01 - yeah, i know, not recommended, IIRC, but tests have been done and published using a 10440 Li-ion cell). this too high a low (at least until the voltage drops on the cells), and the clickie, on the FL are my only "crabs" about the FL.

5. max output on both lights have different characteristics. by eye, the lumen o.p. of the LD05 might be greater than the FL by a bit, but the hot spot of the LD01 head is more defined and very clearly brighter than the brightest portion of the LD05, so more throw is expected from the FL. the LD05 has a very nice beam pattern, IMO, but i have not complaints about the LD01 head beam pattern and find it quite useful and not at all objectionable.

6. burntimes??? don't know. i used the FL for about 6wks on its lowest setting (which started out way too bright, but after a several weeks use, dimmed to an o.p. level similar to the LD05 on LOW, but continued for weeks more at this low level) with only a few minutes of burntime on MED and HI (certainly less than 20min total) and the cells still checked out at ~10% SOC on my ZTS MBT-1. cell voltage was around +1VDC on each cell, IIRC. only changed out the cells b/c i knew that i was going to need a brighter light for a situation i was planning on being in later that day (MED and HI had noticeably dimmed as well). this setup is a real "tron" vampire, sucking every last "tron" out of them cells. if the LD01 operates down to +1VDC (thought i read that somewhere some time ago), then perhaps it would continue to operate until each cell was ~+0.5VDC??? i would expect burntime to be at the very least comparable to the LD05, but my, apparently erroneous, impression was that the LD01 burned for a longer period of time compared to LD05 published figures for its low output. i say "apparently erroneous" b/c i wonder why Fenix would not use the same, or very similar, electronic design in the LD05 as in the LD01, but perhaps the didn't - i haven't checked to see if this issue is discussed anywhere.



so, at this point the LD05 has quickly found its way into a drawer - it's just far bigger than i want a 2xAAA light to be. i hope that the Preon will be an acceptable replacement for the FL. it's shorter than the LD05, but has approx. the same diameter according published figures. i'm hoping that its brighter high might make it appeal to me so that i replace the FL with it. Or, the lower low might replace the LF2XT (which i have configured to three levels with the lowest at a 1% o.p. level, the others being left at the default 15% and 50% levels - of course, 100% o.p. level is always available as a momentary o.p.), and i'll end up carrying the Preon and FL (when i want to carry AAA lights versus small CR2 and/or small CR123A twisty lights).

my two shekels. hope this info proves useful to someone.


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## Swedpat (Nov 29, 2009)

I think I will go for Preon 2AAA instead of Fenix LD05. The percentual difference between the brightness levels are very similar, and therefore you can consider the mid mode as in the middle of low and high. 

But I just want to ask because I am not sure I got this right: do I need to order an additional clicky with it to get a good working clicky, or is that problem only for Titanium Preon?

Regards, Patric


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## kwkarth (Nov 29, 2009)

Swedpat said:


> I think I will go for Preon 2AAA instead of Fenix LD05. The percentual difference between the brightness levels are very similar, and therefore you can consider the mid mode as in the middle of low and high.
> 
> But I just want to ask because I am not sure I got this right: do I need to order an additional clicky with it to get a good working clicky, or is that problem only for Titanium Preon?
> 
> Regards, Patric



My Titanium clicky works just fine. I wouldn't worry about it unless you get a bad one and then if you do, let warranty take care of it.


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## eravau (Nov 29, 2009)

*PWM comparison*



4sevens said:


> The PWM rate difference is about 20 to 1. The Fenix frequency is roughly 125hz.



 Wow! There's nothing else to say. Just seeing the numbers doesn't do 4sevens' engineering justice at all. This makes me even happier that I placed a 4sevens light order recently.


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## GarageBoy (Nov 29, 2009)

How is the clicky on the preon been for you guys?


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## JohnF (Nov 29, 2009)

GarageBoy said:


> How is the clicky on the preon been for you guys?




Not a single misfire here.

John F


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## LightObsession (Nov 29, 2009)

Woods Walker said:


> Not sure as to the point of a 2XAAA light. The only reason why I like 1xAAA is smaller size.



For me, 2AAA is for shirt pocket use. I always carry a 2AAA light in my shirt pocket.


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## da.gee (Nov 29, 2009)

Perfect function so far on the Ti clicky after a couple days and many many getting to know the new toy clicks.


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## berry580 (Nov 30, 2009)

so which two lights are these?


4sevens said:


> The PWM rate difference is about 20 to 1. The Fenix frequency is roughly 125hz.


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## MKLight (Nov 30, 2009)

The LD05 is on top; the Preon on the bottom. The Preon has much less (almost none) visible PWM.


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## Swedpat (Nov 30, 2009)

Just ordered a Preon 2AAA blue, a 2AAA Titanium black edition and a TK30. 

This will be my last order for this year because now it's not much more to use of the credit cards...Next year will be the creditcard payment-year...
But; actually I don't need any more light for years...

Regards, Patric


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## kaichu dento (Nov 30, 2009)

Swedpat said:


> Just ordered a Preon 2AAA blue, a 2AAA Titanium black edition and a TK30.
> 
> This will be my last order for this year because now it's not much more to use of the credit cards...Next year will be the creditcard payment-year...
> But; actually I don't need any more light for years...
> ...


Patric, congratulations on your final order for the year! Right! :nana:


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## da.gee (Dec 1, 2009)

I've had my final order a couple times now.


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## Swedpat (Dec 1, 2009)

da.gee said:


> I've had my final order a couple times now.



I have also had...:ironic:

Regards, Patric


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## Beat Trash (Dec 13, 2009)

Help a new member if you would...

I'm a LEO (of 17yrs) who is also dating a LEO. I discovered this forum and have since learned of the existence of these little AAA LED lights.

Is the Preon 2 x AAA light bright enough and durable enough to be used as a backup light for what internet guru's refer as a "tactical light"? Would it get too hot if used on the max setting for more than a couple of minutes? Can you easily turn the light on and off, illuminating the threat, vs. having to leave it on continuously (not smart to do when both parties are armed)?

When I saw the photo's of this light next to a marker and an ink pin, My first thought was that these would be perfect to carry in the shirt pocket. Over the years, I have had my light die on me while conducting building searches, ect. Not a good thing. The average officer's gun belt has too much stuff as it is, no room for spare lights. But a light this small, if it could be used in a pinch...? 

Please excuse my ignorance on the topic...


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## HKJ (Dec 13, 2009)

Beat Trash said:


> Is the Preon 2 x AAA light bright enough and durable enough to be used as a backup light for what internet guru's refer as a "tactical light"?



The Preon is probably bright enough, but the user interface, i.e. how you use the on/off button, is not really for tactical use. First time you press the button is goes on in low and you have to press the button all the way down and release it, before the light turns on. The you have to press two times softly on the button to select max. brightness.
It is probably much more useful for illumination when writing tickets or checking some dark corners in non-tactical situations.


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## da.gee (Dec 13, 2009)

Some of the Quark Tacticals from 4sevens.com might fit the bill as a backup but they are larger than the Preons. With clip they would fit in the shirt pocket and you can program the mode sequence to your liking.


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## Beat Trash (Dec 13, 2009)

da.gee said:


> Some of the Quark Tacticals from 4sevens.com might fit the bill as a backup but they are larger than the Preons. With clip they would fit in the shirt pocket and you can program the mode sequence to your liking.



Thanks for the heads up. THese might be just what I'm looking for.


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## Burgess (Dec 13, 2009)

to Beat_Trash --


Welcome to CandlePowerForums.

:welcome:


If you order a light from 4Sevens, don't forget to use " *CPF8* " for yer' 8% Discount.


Stay safe out there, Officer.


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## da.gee (Dec 13, 2009)

The more you buy the more you save!!


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## defloyd77 (Dec 13, 2009)

Beat Trash said:


> Help a new member if you would...
> 
> I'm a LEO (of 17yrs) who is also dating a LEO. I discovered this forum and have since learned of the existence of these little AAA LED lights.
> 
> ...



If you want 2 or 3 AAA, you might want to check out the Sunlite Slim or Slim 2, I think a simple 1 mode forward clicky penlight would suite your uses well.


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## MKLight (Dec 14, 2009)

2 AAA Peak Eiger or 2 AA Peak El Capitan....either with the momentary switch in Stainless Steel, HAIII, or brass...


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## defloyd77 (Dec 14, 2009)

MKLight said:


> 2 AAA Peak Eiger or 2 AA Peak El Capitan....either with the momentary switch in Stainless Steel, HAIII, or brass...



The Eiger came to mind to me too, but I'm not sure how some would like the momentary only switch on one side and constant twist on the other. Also, I am pretty sure there isn't a 2 AA El Capitan.


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## kwkarth (Dec 14, 2009)

Beat Trash said:


> Help a new member if you would...
> 
> I'm a LEO (of 17yrs) who is also dating a LEO. I discovered this forum and have since learned of the existence of these little AAA LED lights.
> 
> ...


For a really good "backup" light, I would encourage you to consider any of the Quark tacticals.

The R2 based models have tighter throw, but are not quite as bright as the R5 models. There are also the AA counterparts for these lights on the site as well. The single CR123 powered lights are available with or without pocket clip. I know these are larger in diameter than the Preons, but I think they will serve you better in your situation.

Quark R5 Tacticals

Quark R2 Tacticals


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## MKLight (Dec 15, 2009)

defloyd77 said:


> The Eiger came to mind to me too, but I'm not sure how some would like the momentary only switch on one side and constant twist on the other. Also, I am pretty sure there isn't a 2 AA El Capitan.




Ah....I thought I saw a 2AA El Capitan. Maybe I was thinkin about the Caribbean? Thanks for the correction.


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## Swedpat (Dec 16, 2009)

Recently I received my two Preons: a Titanium black edition and a kit blue.

These lights are beautiful and the output amazing for such a small flashlight. I compared the brightness of Preon 1 to my Fenix LOD and Preon is significantly brighter than LOD at as well mid and high mode!

Actually I at first didn't realize that I with the blue kit would get both the one and two cell options (bad reading from my side). 
That became a good surprise because I am not satisfied with the clicky of Titanium black, the clicky of Preon blue 2 is more stable and feels better. Also I like blue more than black.

Therefore I moved the head and the clip (placed a piece of paper between the clip and body to avoid scratches) from Titanium black to the 2 blue body (which came with a black clip), and have now one Preon 1 blue and one Preon 2 Titanium blue!  


Regards, Patric


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Dec 16, 2009)

Noice looking!

But what about PWM in L or M?


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## Jackscrj (Dec 16, 2009)

I like both. I don't own both but here is my opinion.
The preon has a large jump from med to high on 2aaa if 22lm is enough you have to skip up to 160lm

ld20 32 4 100

The preon has too many modes lose one of the beacons at least.

*edit* sorry for my ignorance I think I'll read 47s description more carefully


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## kwkarth (Dec 16, 2009)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> Noice looking!
> 
> But what about PWM in L or M?



If I remember correctly, it operates at 2.5kHz.


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## MKLight (Dec 16, 2009)

Jackscrj said:


> I like both. I don't own both but here is my opinion.
> The preon has a large jump from med to high on 2aaa if 22lm is enough you have to skip up to 160lm
> 
> ld20 32 4 100
> ...




The Preon's beacon modes are far out of the way if you don't want/need them. You would have to go through 2 full cycles to get to the beacon mode. As 4Sevens has put it, they're hidden away. They won't be a bother to you if you don't want to access them...


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Dec 16, 2009)

Huh! Yeah I imagine 2.5 khz would do it.

I always thought my L1/P2 was current regulated. But if swept FAST across my line of vision it is fast PWM.


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## Swedpat (Dec 17, 2009)

About PWM I regularly notice it on the Preons when moving the look or the light fast. Also it's visible if fast waving the hand when shining on it. And this though 2,4kHz. This has to mean that the 125Hz of LD05 is way to low frequence and would be really annoying!

Regards, Patric


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Dec 17, 2009)

I never notice PWM on L1/P2. I just found it by sweeping the light fast in front of me.

Sounds like Preon would be about the same.

That said, I'm just not interested enough to try to buy one.


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## kwkarth (Dec 17, 2009)

For all *PRACTICAL* purposes there is no visible PWM flicker with the Preons. 
If a 2.5kHz PWM "flicker" is visible to you, see your doctor, and for goodness sake, never buy a DLP projector! Also avoid all fluorescent lighting at any cost.:thumbsup:


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## kwkarth (Dec 17, 2009)

Jackscrj said:


> I like both. I don't own both but here is my opinion.
> The preon has a large jump from med to high on 2aaa if 22lm is enough you have to skip up to 160lm
> 
> ld20 32 4 100
> ...


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## Demon27 (Jan 27, 2010)

So from reading all the info I could find on the Preon I'm assuming the light has no memory. Am I correct on this? I really like the size and lumen rating but if I can't get full brightness on the first press/click then it's not for me.


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## Quension (Jan 28, 2010)

Correct, Preons always start on low.


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## Demon27 (Jan 28, 2010)

Oops. Sorry. I just found the thread on the Preon UI. Thanks anyways.


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## Girryn (Jan 28, 2010)

Woods Walker said:


> Not sure as to the point of a 2XAAA light. The only reason why I like 1xAAA is smaller size.



Pen pocket light, or for multi tool flashlight combo belt holsters.


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## 4sevens (Jan 28, 2010)

Woods Walker said:


> Not sure as to the point of a 2XAAA light. The only reason why I like 1xAAA is smaller size.





Girryn said:


> Pen pocket light, or for multi tool flashlight combo belt holsters.


That and it totally *PWNS* all other "pen" lights. I'm not talking by a small margin, the difference is HUGE.

If you don't believe me just check out the third party reviews. Here is a graph by HJK:






I pulled the graph from his page here:
http://translate.googleusercontent....&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhjZ4J4-jJeN4L-ueeEyxlfUL71rHA

It's smaller than the classic stylus pro and TEN TIMES BRIGHTER 
(and it's got three output levels and hidden modes, better clip, better finish, etc etc)


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## parnass (Jan 28, 2010)

4sevens said:


> ....
> [The Preon] is smaller than the classic stylus pro and TEN TIMES BRIGHTER
> (and it's got three output levels and hidden modes, better clip, better finish, etc etc)



The Streamlight Stylus Pro's forward clicky with makes the light super easy to deploy. Wish there were more 2AAA lights available with this type of switch.


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## f22shift (Jan 29, 2010)

parnass said:


> The Streamlight Stylus Pro's forward clicky with makes the light super easy to deploy. Wish there were more 2AAA lights available with this type of switch.


 
eagletac is coming out with one.
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2431591&postcount=9
http://webpages.charter.net/tackledog/ET 2010-2.pdf


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## Shur (Apr 26, 2010)

damon said:


> just wondering can the 4Sevens Preon and the Fenix LD05 head interchangeable?



Also interested.
Will an LD01 head fit the LD05?
Will an iTP A3 head fit either of them? (If Fenix stays true to the threads used on the LD01 than this will be a no for the LD05)


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## Swedpat (Apr 26, 2010)

damon said:


> just wondering can the 4Sevens Preon and the Fenix LD05 head interchangeable?



I guess so because I just tried and Preon1 and2 heads works good in my LOD.


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## HKJ (Apr 26, 2010)

Shur said:


> Also interested.
> Will an LD01 head fit the LD05?
> Will an iTP A3 head fit either of them? (If Fenix stays true to the threads used on the LD01 than this will be a no for the LD05)



Lots of questions, here are even more answers answers:

Preon head and A3 head will fit LD01 body, but the LD01 head will not make contact on the Preon or A3 body

A3 head fit on Preon body, but Preon head does not fit on A3 body.

A3 head fits on Maratac body, but Maratac head does not fit on A3 body.

Preon head fits on Maratac body and Maratac head fits on Preon body

Maratac head will not make contact on LD01 body and LD01 head does not fit on Maratac body.

With "does not fit" I mean that the body and the head only screws partial together, then the threads lock up.

Old and new LD01 uses same threads.

The LD05 uses the same thread as LD01, but the other way around, i.e. you can screw LD01 body together with LD05 body


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## Shur (Apr 26, 2010)

HKJ said:


> Lots of questions, here are even more answers answers:
> 
> Preon head and A3 head will fit LD01 body, but the LD01 head will not make contact on the Preon or A3 body
> 
> ...



That's wonderful, thank you.

When I tried my:
A3 head on LD01 SS body locks up.
A3 on an L0D body threads and functions
LD01 SS & L0D heads threaded but did not make contact on the A3 body.
LD01 SS & L0D heads and bodies are interchangeable.

LD01 SS appears to have deeper threads than the L0D. SS head on L0D body has a little bit of play 1/2 turn from tight, but not on its own body.

Aside from threading all the way on, are they making contact and functioning? 

Someone with enough lights could make a killer franken-light compatibility chart.


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## snubjob (Sep 1, 2011)

Henk_Lu said:


> As the LD05 uses an XPE, it could have more throw than the Preon...


It does. I just went to my backyard with them both. I prefer the ld05. much beefier light. Better switch. Should hold up to my everyday abuse alot better.


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## anthony_mcbo (Mar 31, 2012)

madmook said:


> I chose the Preon kit for these reasons:
> 
> 1) Based on specs, the Preon 2xAAA clicky configuration, same as the LD05, is shorter.
> 
> ...




I own both flashlights and I like them both. Here are a few pros and cons.

-The preon 2 is shorter and slimmer than the fenix which is great but the fenix has a much stronger clip (I'm on my third preon clip) and a stronger less noisy clicky switch, the Preon 2 switch is very loud and you can easily actuate in your pocket to later find out you ran your batteries out, this does not happen with the fenix

The preon 2 has many more modes and is a much brighter light which is why is carry it more often than the fenix but the one thing I really prefer much more in the fenix is the throw. They just don't compare, Preon 2 brighter but the LD05 throws much much further.

-And yes Fenix rates their lights with ANSI lumens

Like I said before I own them both and I cannot rate one on top of the other, it's just a matter of preference.


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## Kokopelli (Apr 1, 2012)

Dopple post.. :thumbsdow


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## Kokopelli (Apr 1, 2012)

Oh, you are ressurecting on a year old post. 

I also have them both. The Preon II is definitely more pocketable but I loved the sturdiness and throw on the LD05. My Preon II is High CRI and I sometimes use it with my ITP A3's head. I also have cool white Quarks from 47s. Cool white 47s are usually green so I avoided them. I were thinking Fenix would also have a green tint on low settings but I were quite surprised with the perfectly white tint on my LD05. I also like its mode sequence, Med-Low-High. 

Long story short, I always prefer LD05 over Preon II if I have a small bag with me. Preon II if I only wear shirts.


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