# REBELLiON Is Born (a.k.a. M963-KL2)



## milkyspit (Nov 12, 2007)

Lately I've fallen into the habit of spending more time building, and less time posting the builds... and while I do have literally hundreds of photos of various things, it won't do a soul any good if they don't eventually make there way to CPF! Sorry about that, folks. 







This particular build uses the fairly new Luxeon Rebel-100 emitters, which generate an average of 100 lumens at 350mA drive current and heatsink particularly well, as shown in testing by fellow CPFer JTR1962. These emitters make possible some builds thatr previously wouldn't have physically been possible to pull off... and while the unbelievably tiny size of the emitters themselves makes them tough to work with, just couldn't resist trying to shoehorn a full-blown 7-emitter build, usually reserved for something like a Maglite or SureFire KT4 Turbohead, into the much smaller KL2 head! oo:

Did I mention these Rebels are incredibly tough to work with? :sigh:

After destroying several emitters and in the process discovering all sorts of strange and amazing ways to render them unusable, I finally (knock on wood!) seem to have completed the first M963-KL2, dubbed 'REBELLiON' (pronounced ree-bell-yun, with weird pronunciation of the letter 'i' because it just looked plain cool)  plus had a chance to runtime test and take some photos.

IT'S ALIVE! :naughty:
















The head incorporates 7x Luxeon Rebel-100 emitters arranged in an array of McR10-R reflectors, with dual-redundant regulation circuitry, all resulting in what hopefully will prove to be a robust platform capable of generating 963 lumens continuous over the course of its runtime. This one does run on a single rechargeable, such as 18650 or AW-C cell, and even 2x123 primaries... just how long it stays in regulation is an open issue... I can say it does at least start out in full regulation though.






As this one comes pretty early in the game as far as building with the Rebel emitters, please excuse the poor centering under reflector array. You have no idea what a challenge these little guys are to mount, and not short-out, and get perfectly positioned for a 7-emitter reflector array, and get heatsinked properly... anyway, the reflectors themselves are plenty forgiving of minor positioning errors and the beam doesn't seem to suffer at all.

:sweat:






On 2x18650 cells, a little magic happens... lo and behold, the thing is Project-M compliant!






The dual-redundant circuitry means at least 3x emitters will continue to run despite any single failure to circuitry or emitters... and as a side benefit, the system also operates as an early warning of an impending dead battery... as the cells weaken, 4x emitters will flicker a bit then shutdown toward the tail end of runtime, leaving 3x emitters operating and yielding a visible diminishment of light, yet still plenty bright for normal use... then the remaining 3x emitters will flicker a bit... then dim noticeably... and finally, continue to run at emergency lighting brightness for as long as the cells can support it. With protected cells, the protection circuitry would probably shutdown the system before this point... with primary 123 cells or unprotected cells, the system would continue to run until the bitter end.






One more subtle benefit to the combination of KL2 head and Project-M compliance at the M963 drive level is the ability to combine pieces for a combination of size and output that flat-out wasn't achievable before. With apologies for the exceptionally grainy photo, note the length of the Leef prototype parts relative to the Milky L1, a 1x123 light...






Output is surprisingly good... the beam is similar to that of a SureFire L4, but several times more intense. The photos may not show it well, but this thing can throw perhaps farther than one might imagine while generating a big, intense wall of light...











That's about it for now! Not the best post, perhaps, but hope it at least gives some idea of what this little monster is all about. Thanks for reading!


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## milkyspit (Nov 12, 2007)

Forgot to mention: the Project-M thread itself is *over here*.


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## jcompton (Nov 12, 2007)

Absolutely amazing!!! :twothumbs

Nice work Scott!!!

So when can I expect it to arrive in my mailbox?



John


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## Brozneo (Nov 12, 2007)

Excellent work! So when should we expect a SF KT4 head full of Rebels with these small reflectors??? Hehe


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## ICUDoc (Nov 12, 2007)

Good stuff, Scott!
Can we see a photo of the emitters on the heatsink- must be TIGHT work!!!


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## skalomax (Nov 12, 2007)

That's incredible!

Look at that runtime.
Guess I'll be sending you some more money soon Scott. :green:


Great job.


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## D MacAlpine (Nov 13, 2007)

Wow, and I was impressed when you crammed 4 emitters into one of those heads!
Better still the retaining ring doesn't even overlap the dinky little reflectors.



skalomax said:


> Guess I'll be sending you some more money soon Scott. :green:


 
I thought you had a standing order set up already.....


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## souptree (Nov 13, 2007)

Awesome, Scott! Thanks for sharing!!


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## milkyspit (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks guys! 



Brozneo said:


> Excellent work! So when should we expect a SF KT4 head full of Rebels with these small reflectors??? Hehe



Man, THAT would be expensive... just the parts alone for that build boggle the mind... which of course means it must be built! Now to find one of our well-heeled flashaholics, perhaps an investment banker, or attorney or something who wants that little something extra in his build, heh heh.  :naughty:



ICUDoc said:


> Good stuff, Scott!
> Can we see a photo of the emitters on the heatsink- must be TIGHT work!!!



Sorry ICU, already have the light packed and on the way to William Laffery, its owner, and I forgot to snap pix while the thing was open... what I can tell you is it's built on one of the Shoppe's 7-emitter 'flower' thin MCPCB, but I had to make some modifications, first to split the emitters into two circuits for the redundant circuitry... then to replace a few Rebel-100 emitters that met untimely demises while I was putting everything together. As for tight... well, the emitters aren't all that close together, but the contact pads are so tiny (and on the BOTTOM of each emitter) that mounting the things is pretty tough, and desoldering later even tougher.



skalomax said:


> That's incredible!
> 
> Look at that runtime.
> Guess I'll be sending you some more money soon Scott. :green:
> ...



Bring it on, Skalo! Always ready for a new challenge from you.  Thanks for the kinds words, too.



D MacAlpine said:


> Wow, and I was impressed when you crammed 4 emitters into one of those heads!
> Better still the retaining ring doesn't even overlap the dinky little reflectors.



You can't really see it from the photos, but I also repositioned the primary lens gasket to the underside, which is completely different from what I've done in prior KL2 builds. The fact there's a bit of space around the fringes makes it possible... and moving the gasket below the lens allowed for placing the emitters closer to the head end of the light, for less interference from the bezel ring.


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## DM51 (Nov 13, 2007)

That is just _*amazing*_ in such a small package. Great work! Did you consider putting a red LED in the centre spot, to compensate for the low red output of the white LEDs? Something like the Pink Panther light you and SilverFox designed?


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## milkyspit (Nov 13, 2007)

DM51 said:


> That is just _*amazing*_ in such a small package. Great work! Did you consider putting a red LED in the centre spot, to compensate for the low red output of the white LEDs? Something like the Pink Panther light you and SilverFox designed?




DM51, yes, in fact at the same time I made Leef a larger 'Baja 1000' light in Mag D head, mounted on BigLeef neck and body tubes. The Baja 1000 has a Lux3 red-orange emitter in the center position and based on a quick look, seems to have the best color balance of any 'Pinky' head I've built yet.

Why didn't I go that route with the REBELLiON? It was simple: I don't have any red-orange Rebels! 

This head may be retrofit with one later.


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## Boltgun (Nov 13, 2007)

Milky very very cool mod......Do you know if the Rebels will work in a KL6 head
? What is better for that? an SSC or Rebelion. 

Also your PM inbox is full and ther eis no email listed. Need to send you a message.

Boltgun


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## milkyspit (Nov 16, 2007)

Boltgun said:


> Milky very very cool mod......Do you know if the Rebels will work in a KL6 head
> ? What is better for that? an SSC or Rebelion.
> 
> Also your PM inbox is full and ther eis no email listed. Need to send you a message.
> ...




Boltgun, both emitters (SSC and Rebel) ought to work in a KL6 head... I've been playing with the Rebel in these larger reflectors lately, and they look promising... of course, I've also used SSC a number of times with excellent results, and have the process down for that one... it's a more mature modification, basically.

If my CPF PM is full, you could PM me at CPF-MP and/or send email to...






BTW, thanks for your very kind words.


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## Boltgun (Nov 16, 2007)

email sent!


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## BassMan (Nov 22, 2007)

Brozneo said:


> Excellent work! So when should we expect a SF KT4 head full of Rebels with these small reflectors??? Hehe


 



milkyspit said:


> Thanks guys!
> Man, THAT would be expensive... just the parts alone for that build boggle the mind... which of course means it must be built! Now to find one of our well-heeled flashaholics, perhaps an investment banker, or attorney or something who wants that little something extra in his build, heh heh.  :naughty:


 
Milky: so how many of these rebels / small reflectors could one cram into a surefire M6 ? and what would the output in lumens be approximately? What batteries / runtime if any would work in the M6 handle and support such a load ? On a similar note....What would a surefire u2 ultra project with these be like ? lumens / run-time / # emitters ?

thanks


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## milkyspit (Nov 24, 2007)

BassMan said:


> Milky: so how many of these rebels / small reflectors could one cram into a surefire M6 ? and what would the output in lumens be approximately? What batteries / runtime if any would work in the M6 handle and support such a load ? On a similar note....What would a surefire u2 ultra project with these be like ? lumens / run-time / # emitters ?
> 
> thanks



BassMan, looks like 19x Rebel emitters in McR10-R reflectors ought to fit in a KT4 turbohead (the head on the SureFire M6, M4, and M3T). Three would be very minor overlay of the bezel ring at the extreme outer edge but I don't anticipate that to impact output to any significant degree.

Here's a quick-n-dirty mockup using reflectors only...






I won't even begin to estimate a runtime since many configurations are possible. I will say these would require a particularly sturdy power source, and I have some ideas on what would work.

In theory, such an arrangement could reach *4370 lumens* with the emitters operating in spec.

Batter up? 


As for the U2, been meaning to post a thread on this one, I've already got a standard Milky mod fo rthe U2 that utilizes 4x Rebel-100 emitters and generates about 500 lumens max with the same multi-brightness functionality as before, same runtimes, less heat generation...


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## DaFABRICATA (Nov 24, 2007)

OH MY GOD!!! 
MILKY, I tried to PM you but you box was full.....I'd like a 4 Rebel modded U2! 
I'll try emailing you to get some #'s.....my emails never seem to make it to anyone though....?..

Awesome Work! by the Master himself!


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## ZeissOEM2 (Nov 24, 2007)

Wow-maybe my U2 can be useful again.
I do have one U2 with broken lens.
Let me know the cost for making it modded with 4 rebels and I will ship the head.
O.R

BTW -your PM-box is full


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## DaFABRICATA (Nov 24, 2007)

I asked before, but if you don't mod your U2 I'd be interested in it. Let me know....... 




ZeissOEM2 said:


> Wow-maybe my U2 can be useful again.
> I do have one U2 with broken lens.
> Let me know the cost for making it modded with 4 rebels and I will ship the head.
> O.R
> ...


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## milkyspit (Nov 24, 2007)

Guys, if my CPF inbox is full, you can still PM me at CPF Marketplace or send an email with 'CPF' and your username in the subject line, to...


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## Brozneo (Nov 26, 2007)

milkyspit said:


> BassMan, looks like 19x Rebel emitters in McR10-R reflectors ought to fit in a KT4 turbohead (the head on the SureFire M6, M4, and M3T). Three would be very minor overlay of the bezel ring at the extreme outer edge but I don't anticipate that to impact output to any significant degree.
> 
> Here's a quick-n-dirty mockup using reflectors only...
> 
> ...


 
That is stunning Scott! Would the various drivers all fit in the head as well? Someone please get this build and get it at full 4370 spec! :naughty:


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## jcompton (Nov 26, 2007)

Brozneo said:


> That is stunning Scott! Would the various drivers all fit in the head as well? Someone please get this build and get it at full 4370 spec! :naughty:


 
I'd go for one if someone would like to start a fund to aid in reducing the brunt of the cost, then have some sort of a pass-a-round for the contributors...:naughty:...:shrug:......


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## BassMan (Nov 26, 2007)

Hey Scott: I'm sending an email to discuss the 2 surefires....

Thanks
BassMan


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## Brozneo (Nov 28, 2007)

jcompton said:


> I'd go for one if someone would like to start a fund to aid in reducing the brunt of the cost, then have some sort of a pass-a-round for the contributors...:naughty:...:shrug:......


 
Haha - not a bad plan at all!


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## RCatR (Nov 29, 2007)

To protect the innocent I can't release any names; and because it was so late I rushed it out without the chance of proper photos. I've PM'd the owner and suggested posting nice photos but here we go.....
2.2KLumens; 5 custom rebel .3" flood reflectors; 5 minimagLED reflectors; Mcr17 trimmed; 2 sharks; 1 downboy; glowpoxy; and around 25 hours of labor. Will run on either primaries or 3x17670(custom cage). You can feel warmth on your hand in front of it; and it's brighter than my '93 ranger's headlights.
















Sorry to hijack, but I had to let it out!


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## RCatR (Nov 29, 2007)

Double post


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## milkyspit (Nov 29, 2007)

RCatR, that's a nice light, but why post it here? Seems with all the work you put into it, that one deserves its own thread where you can tell the whole story.


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## Hodsta (Nov 29, 2007)

milkyspit said:


>


 
Milky , if you wanted a bit more throw in the mix could an MCR27 or 20 fit in the centre with orbiting MCR10's? That would be awesome and I would definately start saving!


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## milkyspit (Nov 29, 2007)

Hodsta said:


> Milky , if you wanted a bit more throw in the mix could an MCR27 or 20 fit in the centre with orbiting MCR10's? That would be awesome and I would definately start saving!




Hodsta, sure, that's a possibility. A narrow angle optic or three might do even better. There are two issues to overcome here regardless of the specific mix of reflectors/optics...

1. The varying heights of the reflectors would necessitate various tiers and/or pedestals on the heatsinking surface. This complicates fabrication tremendously. It can be done! But costs would go up significantly to get it right.

2. There's always a conflict between bringing additional lumens to bear and using larger, tighter focusing reflectors. The large reflectors do throw a lot farther, but will reduce the overall emitter count so much that the loss in overall output might cancel virtually all the gain from the reflector. There's a delicate balancing act that needs to take place here to find the sweet spot. :sweat: Then one ends up going down a slippery slope: if there are larger reflectors, why use the Rebel in them... why not use a good Seoul SSC or Cree emitter? There's no advantage to the Rebel in a large reflector. That in turn brings us closer and closer to the non-Rebel Project-M builds that I've been doing for quite a while, which if I dare say so are quite nice! Plus supported by a more mature, proven architecture at this point. So is it still a Rebel build, or not?

There's not necessarily a definitive right answer to the above, it's more a judgment call. So in answer to your question overall, I'd say large reflectors tossed into the mix COULD help but there's no guarantee that they actually WOULD help.

Hope this helps at least a little.


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## milkyspit (Nov 29, 2007)

BTW, one example from Project-M builds... the X1400, a 7-emitter build using 16mm reflectors for 1400 lumens overall output, gets outthrown by an X800, a 4-emitter build using 20mm reflectors... but only just barely. In practice the throw of these two is pretty close.


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## RCatR (Nov 29, 2007)

Milky, I need to stop posting after 1am


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## Hodsta (Nov 29, 2007)

Thanks Milky I get ya, and am happy to exclaim my ignorance on such matters so thanks for the advice.

I particularly fond of the M876 Skalomonster which I managed to pry out Skals hands and therefore it would take something quite different to justify another monster.

Thanks Skal & Milky - a dynamic duo


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## milkyspit (Nov 29, 2007)

RCatR said:


> Milky, I need to stop posting after 1am




:laughing:

No problem!


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## skalomax (Nov 29, 2007)

:tinfoil: I'm pretty sure this thread is going to cost me.


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## Brozneo (Nov 29, 2007)

skalomax said:


> :tinfoil: I'm pretty sure this thread is going to cost me.


 
Please say your thinking of getting a KT4 head with 19 x Rebels!!!!


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## AndyTiedye (Nov 30, 2007)

milkyspit said:


> BassMan, looks like 19x Rebel emitters in McR10-R reflectors ought to fit in a KT4 turbohead (the head on the SureFire M6, M4, and M3T). Three would be very minor overlay of the bezel ring at the extreme outer edge but I don't anticipate that to impact output to any significant degree.
> 
> Here's a quick-n-dirty mockup using reflectors only...
> 
> ...



One of these, perhaps:




Li-Ion Cylindral Cell: 3.7V 60 Ah (60232) 120A Discharging Rate - The Bigest Li-Ion Cell in the world - Made in Germany
Though you'd need to make a custom body to fit it.


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## BassMan (Dec 16, 2007)

Hey Scott:

Just wanted to confirm you got my last email sent a few days ago....
to confirm the paypal amount with shipping for the surefire u2 upgrade and swap phone #s to chat about the M6 project...

thanks
Grant


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## milkyspit (Dec 16, 2007)

BassMan said:


> Hey Scott:
> 
> Just wanted to confirm you got my last email sent a few days ago....
> to confirm the paypal amount with shipping for the surefire u2 upgrade and swap phone #s to chat about the M6 project...
> ...



Grant, got it. Will reply soon.


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## iocheretyanny (Dec 19, 2007)

milkyspit said:


> Hodsta, sure, that's a possibility. A narrow angle optic or three might do even better. There are two issues to overcome here regardless of the specific mix of reflectors/optics...
> 
> 1. The varying heights of the reflectors would necessitate various tiers and/or pedestals on the heatsinking surface. This complicates fabrication tremendously. It can be done! But costs would go up significantly to get it right.
> 
> ...




Looks like my next build - I'll take it! , 6 rebel reflectors in perimeter, with a 27 seoul reflector in middle.
only 7 leds - seems resonable....

how much


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## Mash (Dec 20, 2007)

Great work as always! Cant wait till I am rady for my very own Milky!

Regarding the 19 emitter head, funny how the world works! We seem to have turned full circle, and pretty soon we will be doing the "chinese shower head" type lights, but with rebels!


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## milkyspit (Dec 20, 2007)

Mash said:


> Great work as always! Cant wait till I am rady for my very own Milky!
> 
> Regarding the 19 emitter head, funny how the world works! We seem to have turned full circle, and pretty soon we will be doing the "chinese shower head" type lights, but with rebels!




Thanks Mash! Interesting point... though this time we're using reflectors and each LED generates 50-100 times the output of the old 5mm LEDs.

There would also be a heat issue, possibly... this one would need some thought applied to design of the thermal management to keep things running well... not impossible, but still a challenge! :thinking:


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## Brozneo (Dec 20, 2007)

milkyspit said:


> There would also be a heat issue, possibly... this one would need some thought applied to design of the thermal management to keep things running well... not impossible, but still a challenge! :thinking:


 
Build a fan in the turbohead?? Hehe :naughty:


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## Alan B (Dec 20, 2007)

Would be interesting to hear the turbo cooling fan wind up, would be appropriate for this type of light... 

-- Alan


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## BassMan (Jan 10, 2008)

Hey Scott:

Any news on the u2 ultra upgrade ?

thanks
Grant


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## milkyspit (Jan 10, 2008)

BassMan said:


> Hey Scott:
> 
> Any news on the u2 ultra upgrade ?
> 
> ...




Grant, there's been a lot more parts fabrication than I'd originally expected (that's the bad news)... ended up sourcing a bunch of custom mineral glass flat lenses, reel of Rebel-100 emitters... had custom Rebel mounting boards manufactured then mounted the emitters on them... got the U2 hosts disassembled then machined to prep for the new installation... the good news is I've gotten through all the above, except for the last few hosts yet to be fully machined... next up is fabrication of the new heatsinks and final assembly, then done! Bottom line: not ready yet, but getting quite a bit closer (that's the good news).


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## BassMan (Jan 10, 2008)

thanks for the update Scott..... really looking forward to this light... should be an amazing combination of size / output / multi-level flexibility.... and run-time


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## stevil86 (Jan 15, 2008)

Man what would the 19x rebel sure fire m6 cost to get made =)
also i have a surfire M2 could that be modded with 4 rebels = 500lumens =)


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## milkyspit (Jan 17, 2008)

stevil86 said:


> Man what would the 19x rebel sure fire m6 cost to get made =)
> also i have a surfire M2 could that be modded with 4 rebels = 500lumens =)




Stevil, let me know if you could use some assistance on any particular builds, it would be my pleasure to help. :thumbsup:

A couple other Rebel-related notes...

*[size=+1]The Lumileds Recall[/size]*

Some of you have no doubt heard about the Lumileds recall on some of their Rebel and K2-TFFC emitters. I've discussed it at length offline with Jtr1962, IMHO one of the most knowledgeable folks out there on the various emitters available and the engineering thereof... I've also posted some thoughts *over here* in Beastmaster's thread.

The short version is this: I have some emitters on the affected list and some not on the affected list... I will build with my present supply because the alternative is to build absolutely nothing for an unknown time that looks to be several months... I will perform burn-in testing on the builds prior to shipment to weed out bad emitters if they are present... and in the end, if my customer experiences a problem I'll do as I've always done and give my best effort to make things right. So far only one Rebel-100 emitter in a build of mine has failed in the field... have that light on my desk right now, replacing the failed emitter at no charge to the customer.

*[size=+1]World's First 100+ Lumens Per Watt High Powered (365 Lumens) Flashlight?[/size]*

Being as I haven't to my knowledge been in a position to create a world's-first of pretty much anything in my life, please excuse a little extra exuberance in this case! oo: I've had a new class of Project-M build on the desk for quite some time consisting of 5x Rebel-100 emitters in a new-style KL3 head... was originally going to build a super bright, beastly light with this, but decided it would be more in the Project-M spirit to seek a new level of efficiency. I targeted 100 lumens per watt as the goal, both because it's a nice milestone, and because it places the light's efficiency beyond that of fluorescent lighting, territory non-fluorescent flashlights have not occupied in the past. It's important to note that I'm talking about SYSTEM EFFICIENCY... that of the ENTIRE FLASHLIGHT, not just the light source... so the regulation circuit's inefficiency, connection losses, and the like all get factored into the equation.

The result is the *M365-KL3*... overall output roughly 365 lumens continuous for approx. 2h19m on 1x18650 AW Protected 2200mAh, 4h53m on 2x18650, 2h on 2x123 primaries, 4h40m on 4x123 primaries... with the head no more than lukewarm even after 2h continuous runtime while standing upright on a table in still air.

Qualitatively, this amount of light seems perfect for a wide variety of uses both indoors and out. This particular piece is a prototype, with the intent to build it for folks once I've put the platform through sufficient testing to feel comfortable with it. So far so good!

Incidentally, 24 hour burn-in testing in progress... as of this writing, it's logged 12-14 hours and all is well. :thumbsup:


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## DM51 (Jan 17, 2008)

milkyspit said:


> The result is the *M365-KL3*... overall output roughly 365 lumens continuous for approx. 2h19m on 1x18650 AW Protected 2200mAh, 4h53m on 2x18650, 2h on 2x123 primaries, 4h40m on 4x123 primaries... with the head no more than lukewarm even after 2h continuous runtime while standing upright on a table in still air.


Those figures are just *astonishing!* Wow!


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