# Cerakote not nearly as durable as hard anodize, unfortunately...



## kaichu dento (May 31, 2011)

Well, I'm not really surprised, but still was a bit of an eye opener to see noticeable wear on my orange cerakote Clicky where it rubs the top edge of my pocket. 

Just got it a couple weeks ago and there's already a good number of wear spots showing up and I decided to start this thread so that those looking for first hand info on how tough cerakote actually is. 

(post updated with pics)


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## RedLED (May 31, 2011)

Kaichu,

I have had the same issue of wear just having the light in my pocket around the house. I love the orange, no matter!!!

When I get time I will do a close up of it. I have a studio here somewhere...

Thanks for your post.

Best wishes,

RL


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## mvyrmnd (May 31, 2011)

Been there, seen that  My Orange Tri-EDC suffered the same fate. I ended up using a polishing wheel to strip off the remaining cerakote once it wore badly enough to look properly ugly.


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## Cypher_Aod (May 31, 2011)

isn't Cerakote supposed to be _ridiculously_ durable if it's been cured properly?

maybe the people Cerakoting these lights aren't coating them properly?

this is from the cerakote website re. their firearm coatings:
http://www.nicindustries.com/images/subpages/Image/nic_wear_cycles_proof.jpg

that's 8000 cycles of an abrasive material before failure, surely Jeans aren't going to do more damage than that?

Maybe the specific type of cerakote (orange!?) being used isn't as durable as the firearms-coating that i'm more familiar with?


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## jellydonut (May 31, 2011)

Dunno. My white cerakote 6P is showing the same tendency.


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## Cypher_Aod (May 31, 2011)

Hmmmm, i'd be fairly disappointed too in this situation 

did you guys get your lights from Oveready or someone like that? whats their policy on finish degradation?


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## GunnarGG (May 31, 2011)

There might be a difference in durability between a cerakoted aluminum flashlight and a firearm made of steel.


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## Lumenocitor (May 31, 2011)

I don't have much experience with cerakote, but I do know a lot about duracoat. Duracoat is an aftermarket firearms finish that is as tough as they come. However finishes like these will only be effective if the surface has been prepped correctly. For most surfaces this means roughing it up a bit. For guns the tried and true way is bead blasting. I would assume flashlights require the same preparation. It is also important to clean the surface after blasting prior to duracoating and most likely cerakoting with alcohol. If all these preliminary steps are taken, a quality, high wear finish should last many years.


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## kaichu dento (May 31, 2011)

RedLed said:


> Kaichu,
> 
> I have had the same issue of wear just having the light in my pocket around the house. I love the orange, no matter!!!
> 
> ...


Look forward to the pics and I'm with you - I'll keep the orange even if it is looking worn!


Cypher_Aod said:


> isn't Cerakote supposed to be _ridiculously_ durable if it's been cured properly?
> 
> maybe the people Cerakoting these lights aren't coating them properly?
> 
> ...


 That's what I'd heard going into this and expected at least Type III durability out of it. Would be nice to find out it's just a matter of better attention to detail, prep work and curing times/temperatures which affect the durability most at the end of the day.


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## HotWire (Jun 1, 2011)

I have an orange Ceracote light that has been used almost daily for several years. It has one ding where I dropped it onto a Surefire HA light. My bad....


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## StarHalo (Jun 1, 2011)

CeraKote is rated at 6-7 mohs. For comparison:


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## kaichu dento (Jun 1, 2011)

HotWire said:


> I have an orange Ceracote light that has been used almost daily for several years. It has one ding where I dropped it onto a Surefire HA light. My bad....


This leads me to believe that there is something lacking in the coating process and that it's not worth giving up on Cerakote as a whole just yet then.


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## DM51 (Jun 1, 2011)

I think I read somewhere that Cerakote does not bond properly to HA, only to bare metal. I'm not 100% sure about this - does anyone know?


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## d337944 (Jun 1, 2011)

I've read somewhere that cerakote sticks better to HA ... but I don't know. However I too report poor coating strength from cerakote, and hate it so much that I'd not buy cerakoted lights again.

I've got a cerakoted 6p body, and it's worn off already where the Surefire lanyard ring sits against it. And here's the kicker - I haven't even used the frigging flashlight, only put on and taken off the ring a few times on a shelf queen setup. AND here's the _second_ kicker - this is the SECOND cerakoted 6p body ... the first one's coating chipped and flaked off after tightening the tailcap with lanyard ring once.

And in case anybody wonders, I purchased my cerakoted bodies from a well-known and trusted dealer here.

I know there're many out there who find their cerakoted lights extremely tough, but it has not been my experience.

It's be interesting to read other experiences!

Cheers
d337944


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## jellydonut (Jun 1, 2011)

Cerakote may have a high hardness rating.. but it seems the bonding sucks. It chips off.

Please click on the images to see the full version if you wish to inspect the chipping!




Tailcap of my orange 6P, has three spots that have been chipped off. It took no particular force at all to cause this. The only time I've caused this kind of wear on my HA III lights (Malkoffs) is through serious abuse, such as dropping them on concrete.




Tailcap of white 6P, has a scratch down to the metal.




Head of white 6P, has some scuffs, but that's from use. What is notable is the various wear on the hex, which has happened over time from carry.




Same.


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## RedLED (Jun 1, 2011)

It seems this process has not worked with flashlights. Seems strange since it is applied to firearms.

I have a Malkoff MD2, and an HDS 170 in orange, love them, and these are my first and only queen's, not safe queen's, but house queen's as I do enjoy using them even if it is at home. However, even with the light duty they enjoy, there are nicks, and marks.

Sad, really, I thought this would liberate us from black, and drab lights. We still have bare metal which is always nice no matter the type of metal.

I have been trying to find out if these lights were finished in a single shop, or by different ones. Really, with all the discussion, and evidence we have proves that this has failed, I feel some explanation is in order since we all paid a premium for the finish, and it did not live up to the PT Barnum claims of long wear...the irony is it was the opposite, with awful wear and protection.

This industry chimes in with the word "Honor" quite often, until something like this takes place...

For me, if it did not work, then fine, but just admit it. I think that is the right thing to do. And, this needs to come from the shop or shops that did the work first, dealers that sold the product are victims as well.

I have a feeling a large part of this is poor QC in the application, and prep. work. Could have been poor training? 

Hope we can finally get the truth on this. I would be happy if there was just a sincere response for the problem. I understand things do happen. I would be fine with this.

Sincerely,

RL


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## RWT1405 (Jun 1, 2011)

I haven't bought any of these "coated" lights, but, then again, my father taught me a LONG time ago, "son, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is".

I will say, as a long time firearms owner & user, I heard and read about the "coating" for firearms, and most reviews stated yes, they can work "for a while", eventually most/all of these "coatings" WILL wear off with use. That was all I needed to know.

My .02 FWIW YMMV


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## Solscud007 (Jun 1, 2011)

I heard somewhere that Cerakote is not comparable to HA. HA is tough, we all know that. But cerakote is not as hard. As shown by the information posted. However I heard that cerakote is more flexible than HA. Also the trade off is for the color variations. You compromise the hardness of HA for the choice of a different color. 

However HA is not all that perfect either. HA wears in corners as well over time and usage.


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## carrot (Jun 5, 2011)

Cerakote is supposed to be less brittle, but softer than HA.
HA is extremely hard, but somewhat brittle.

As Solscud007 said, you are getting a trade-off.


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## Monocrom (Jun 5, 2011)

carrot said:


> Cerakote is supposed to be less brittle, but softer than HA.
> HA is extremely hard, but somewhat brittle.
> 
> As Solscud007 said, you are getting a trade-off.


 


Perhaps it's the way SureFire does HA. I've never had an issue with regards to brittleness.


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## mudman cj (Jun 5, 2011)

There is conflicting information being presented here. StarHalo posted that Ceracote hardness is between 6-7, while HA is 4.5. Then there were a couple of comments that Cerakote is softer than HA. 
I think another issue that must be considered along with coating hardness is the strength of the base material. If a hard but brittle coating is applied to a soft metal like aluminum, then under impact the coating experiences a lot of deformation and therefore it may fail due to being brittle. An extreme example would be like applying a thin coating of glass to a Nerf ball. Hard, brittle coatings will fare much better on something like steel than aluminum for impact resistance.
In situations like rubbing on a holster or the like, there does seem to be a problem with the coating if it is wearing under those conditions. That should not happen unless something harder than the coating is coming into contact with it or, like I mentioned, there was an impact in that area.


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## oregonshooter (Jun 5, 2011)

Cerakote applied properly is about the same as HA-II. That Moh chart does not reflect reality in my world. I am a Certified Cerakote Applicator.

Read my website for more information. There is a video on the site of a metal flash hider that NIC themselves did before I re-coated it that that shows typical wear expectations.

The video IMO is strong evidence of what to expect since it was coated by NIC themselves and is on par with my own experience as a coater.

There is a lot of hype out and too many flashlight folks that expect colored HA-III from the product which it will never be.

Many rush to blame the application and in some cases that is the case. I've coated my EDC 6P twice now. The first time it seemed to wear faster than the last, which shows very little wear and I use it at work as an Electrician and drop it all the time.

The difference between the two coating? Cure time and temp regulation. I bought a $1500.00 PID loop controlled oven between coatings and have found across the board that the applications I'm doing now in the +/-1Deg oven are much stronger than when I had a cheap powdercoat oven.


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## carrot (Jun 5, 2011)

Monocrom said:


> Perhaps it's the way SureFire does HA. I've never had an issue with regards to brittleness.


 Ever drop a SF and get a chip on the ano? I have.


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## oregonshooter (Jun 5, 2011)

Google tin can cerakote video and customized creationz

Soft aluminum as an under coat is not an issue IMO, but I can't prove it


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## jdboy (Jun 5, 2011)

I've kept my dark earth Cerakoted Mac for around a month now with keys in the same pocket without any signs of wear at all.


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## mudman cj (Jun 5, 2011)

oregonshooter said:


> Google tin can cerakote video and customized creationz
> 
> Soft aluminum as an under coat is not an issue IMO, but I can't prove it


I didn't mean to say that it is necessarily a problem with Cerakote on aluminum. It really depends on how brittle Cerakote is, how strong it is, how thick the coating is, and how hard it is impacted. I defer to actual experience over theory.


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## Monocrom (Jun 5, 2011)

carrot said:


> Ever drop a SF and get a chip on the ano? I have.


 
It's odd. I can count on one hand the number of times I've dropped a flashlight, and still have fingers left over. Not the case with other items, but definitely with lights.


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## Solscud007 (Jun 7, 2011)

Not that this is Surefire related. But I dropped my latest light, Sunwayman V10A. It is in black HA. I dropped it from pocket height right onto the pavement. Not a single mark, dent or scuff. Weird cause I have dropped other lights and had a dent or scuff.


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## Cypher_Aod (Jun 8, 2011)

I dropped my L2P-natural onto concrete from seven feet (i was tossing it up in the air and catching it...) and it's completely unmarked.
I've yet to drop either of my surefire lights but given their cost i suspect i never will.

StarHalo's post re. the hardness of Type-3 Anodizing, or HA, seems incorrect to me. Anodizing on aluminium is simply electrochemically encouraging the growth of crystalline aluminium-oxide on the surface of the metal. HA-Anodizing is stronger than other types for two reasons: it's much much much thicker and it has no weakening dye in it (which is why it only comes in black and a variety of greys)

pure crystalline Aluminium Oxide is also known as corundum, and is one of the hardest minerals on earth, rating at 9 on the Moh's hardness scale.


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## kaichu dento (Jun 11, 2011)

I took a couple pics of my orange Clicky and as you can see it's just simply rubbing off! Had expected it to chip if dropped, but not this.


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## SaturnNyne (Jun 11, 2011)

*kaichu:* I'm a little confused.  According to HDS, the cerakote on the Clickies is applied over a layer of HA3. Can you find any evidence of this HA base layer under the orange of your light? On my white Clicky, I have a few scratches that appear to go straight to bare metal and a scuff that looks like bare metal surrounded by a section of matte white surrounded by the glossy cerakote. I don't know if this more matte spot is a layer underneath the outer layer or just a spot of the outer coating that lost its gloss when it was abraded, but it's definitely not a base layer of HA. The only HA3 I can definitely see on my light is on the inside, where it has the standard coating of black. Is your orange the same, with the black ano inside the tube but no evidence of any beneath the cerakote? Based on your photos, it looks like that might be the case, but the sections of your cerakote that are on the edge of the bare spots but not yet completely worn away do look a little darker than the rest, as if there might be something darker showing through beneath. Either way, your orange coating, whether cerakote + HA3 or just cera alone, is certainly not wearing nearly as well as HA3 alone would. Strange.

(Just for the record, I've been carrying my white Clicky clipped to my pants for about two months and I can't see any wear from it. The scratches and scuff were already there when I got it. The only tiny spots that show signs of it rubbing off while I've had it are at the very edges of the bezel's crenelations.)


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## TyJo (Jun 11, 2011)

SaturnNyne said:


> *kaichu:* I'm a little confused.  According to HDS, the cerakote on the Clickies is applied over a layer of HA3.


Here is an opinion about that:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?309119-Cerakote-Check-In!-All-brands-with-coating!&p=3593181&viewfull=1#post3593181.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?309119-Cerakote-Check-In!-All-brands-with-coating!&p=3593755&viewfull=1#post3593755


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## kaichu dento (Jun 11, 2011)

Saturn, there is definitely nothing under the Cerakote on my light, and I would think that to be the best way to coat one - right on top of bare metal. I'm still carrying it everyday and guess it'll just keep wearing out more until it's bare aluminum!


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## SaturnNyne (Jun 12, 2011)

TyJo, thanks a lot for those links, I think that pretty much answers my questions.

Kaichu, thanks for the confirmation.

So it looks like the actual story is that Henry had the lights coated as normal, sent them off to be cerakoted, the outer ano was blasted off and cerakote sprayed on in place, the inner ano was of course left alone, the two coatings meet wherever the blasting and spraying didn't hit (base of the threads and under bezel) with little or no overlap, and Henry simply misunderstood the process when he wrote the description on his site.


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## N/Apower (Jun 14, 2011)

I have owned a Benelli M4 shotgun with a Cerakote'd magazine tube. The mag tube on those guns sees some abuse from the gas ports/pistons. The coating held up very well. That being said, Hard Anodizing is VERY! hard, and I don't doubt it will wear better when faced with abrasion over long periods of time compared to a softer medium (assuming it is IIIA, which HA is assumed to be, as Type II and IIA is considered cosmetic and nearly never called HA).


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## kaichu dento (Oct 31, 2011)

Anyone else got any Cerakote stories or pics? I was looking at my light the other day and thinking I should take some updated photos, which I'll try to do in the next day or two. Does not look like a finish that you would put on a handgun, wearing so badly as it has.


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## leon2245 (Oct 31, 2011)

StarHalo said:


> TiCN 9.5 mohs



Yeah this coating is no joke. A huge nasty chain once raked across a watch I had with a TiCN coated bezel, & not a scratch was on it (crystal was not so lucky). Kahr's DLC & GLOCK's tenifer are equally impressive, but don't know the numbers on that scale for those. And that's all on steel, so i guess it's not fair to compare. But either way in some of those photos CERAKOTE isn't looking too much tougher than _paint! _Maybe there's only so much you can do for Al. Dings & drops show up on even HAIII for me too.


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## madecov (Oct 31, 2011)

I think there is a misconception going on here.
HA-III is a metal treatment, it has no actual color of it's own. Most firearms are anodized then coated with a phosphate finish of some type or the ccoloring can be a bi product of the hardening process. At least that how it was explained to me by the manufacturer of AR-15 Receeivers.

I have owned numerous firearms that where HA-III and the finish was either a blued type of finish or a painted finish. HA runs microns under the surface of the aluminum. It can be damaged or scratched. I have seen pistol feed ramps that were polished below the surface of the anodizing and left just soft aluminum that was damaged by just feeding ammunition.


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## leon2245 (Nov 1, 2011)

The ultimate pocket light would be of SS, that has undergone one of the chemical bath hardening processes used by GLOCK, Springfield, or S&W. Since it would be small for the pocket, weight wouldn't be an issue, and something like that could definitely bang around with keys, coins, & knives without a scratch.

It might cost more than the light itself though. And I actually don't mind the looks of well worn anodization, but would love to find out how much it'd cost to get an E3S or something TiCN'd.


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## MrSypher (Nov 1, 2011)

RedLed said:


> I have a feeling a large part of this is poor QC in the application, and prep. work. Could have been poor training?



I was going to say something along those lines.. The most important part of the whole application process is the prep work because if what you're spraying on has nothing to bite onto then it's pointless. Cerakote, Duracoat, GunKote, ect. has no problem with forged & billet aluminum gun parts, why would there be a problem with our flashlights? The only thing I can think of is that people are spraying over the HA & using that as a base. Now I'm not sure, this is just what I think.. Regular anodized parts have a great base for Cerakote and the like but HA is a whole different type of anodizing and it isn't as porous and it's definitely alot harder, therefore the Cerakote (and others) has nothing to hold onto & the final result is premature wear, peeling and flaking.


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## jamesmtl514 (Nov 3, 2011)

I have a C3 that sees very limited pocket carry, and when I do carry it, it's the only thing in my pocket. There's a small (very small) area where the ceracote just came off.





This is my e1e that I dropped from about 3feet onto pavement.


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## Dsoto87 (Nov 3, 2011)

MrSypher said:


> The only thing I can think of is that people are spraying over the HA & using that as a base.


Doesn't seem to be the case. Kaichu's photo clearly shows raw aluminum under the coating.


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## Colinsdad (Nov 3, 2011)

As someone who is a non destructive inspector in a plating shop for the aerospace industry I can't tell you how difficult it is to get h a and p a coatings done correctly....it's quite a lengthy process! And, imagine how long it takes to h a coat something like a turbofan engine case.....it takes HOURS!!


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## bushy.243 (Aug 17, 2013)

Colinsdad said:


> As someone who is a non destructive inspector in a plating shop for the aerospace industry I can't tell you how difficult it is to get h a and p a coatings done correctly....it's quite a lengthy process! And, imagine how long it takes to h a coat something like a turbofan engine case.....it takes HOURS!!



So are you saying its not worth spending money on or just be picky with who does the job ? I have seen firearms that are Cerakoted and show no signs of wear ??


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## 127.0.0.1 (Aug 18, 2013)

cerakote is worth it

but it must be done properly, lab and 'clean room' conditions

or else it is just plain old paint

compromised cerakote is no better than ordinary glass (it fractures easily)
properly laid cerakote does not have the micro defects which allow cracks to propagate


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## WilsonCQB1911 (Aug 18, 2013)

I have an HDS that is cerakoted in the desert sand color and its a regular carrier and has been for 8 months now. Still looks like new. That said, I do baby my stuff and it's always carried clipped to the pocket with nothing else in the pocket and has never been dropped. 

Yours looks terrible. It would bother me if mine looked like that just from carrying.


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## fresh eddie fresh (Aug 19, 2013)

kaichu dento said:


> I took a couple pics of my orange Clicky and as you can see it's just simply rubbing off! Had expected it to chip if dropped, but not this.



I might be in the minority, but I think that looks really cool. Not so much the chips and scrapes, but the honest wear (I think) looks amazing.


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## kaichu dento (Aug 20, 2013)

I liked it too, but thought that the wear should not have come so easily. Actually now that I'm back to a stock Clicky I think they're just fine in black, especially with the AlTiN bezel.


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## Neginfluence04 (Aug 21, 2013)

That's very weird http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ksj-XJzVQik

LIKE have a few firearms the a cerakoted and they look amazing and have no wear yet


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