# Surefire 9P way too hot and short lived



## shawnf (Oct 1, 2012)

Not a complaint thread just sharing a story.

Needed a flashlight a while ago after loosing my old Surefire 2-cell (think it was 80 lumens) and decided to get the 9P and upgrade the lamp to a 200 lumen model. (This must be the most common mod right?) 

One day the power went out and I was relieved because I just got this new super bright flashlight.

It was great for about 10 - 15 minutes. Ok, I didn't time it but it seemed like it.

It got super hot and turned itself off.

I switched the lamp back to the older (I think 100 lumens) and put newer batteries in.

This time it got super hot and the lamp burned out.

I'm thinking -- wait, it must be the batteries or something.

So I switched the direction the batteries went in and changed the lamp again.

Nope, same thing -- died in like 10 minutes got super hot.

I miss the older 80- lumen two -cell light now.


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## T45 (Oct 1, 2012)

I am going to go out on a limb here and say your 9P is busted/broken/not right....something. You switched the DIRECTION the batteries went and it TURNED ON?!?!? that's....mind boggling. Hope someone can figure this out. In the meantime, Call Surefire and get that 9P sent in for repair. 




shawnf said:


> Not a complaint thread just sharing a story.
> 
> Needed a flashlight a while ago after loosing my old Surefire 2-cell (think it was 80 lumens) and decided to get the 9P and upgrade the lamp to a 200 lumen model. (This must be the most common mod right?)
> 
> ...


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## skyfire (Oct 1, 2012)

try a LED drop-in. better efficiency than lamps.

a malkoff "low" drop-in such as a M61L, or M61WL would work nicely. its not the brightest drop-in, but has good runtimes and heat management.
and it can also use 2xAA cells with your 9P.


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## Mikeg23 (Oct 1, 2012)

T45 said:


> I am going to go out on a limb here and say your 9P is busted/broken/not right....something. You switched the DIRECTION the batteries went and it TURNED ON?!?!? that's....mind boggling. Hope someone can figure this out. In the meantime, Call Surefire and get that 9P sent in for repair.



The Incan lamp doesn't car which way the batteries go as long as there all the same


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## Norm (Oct 1, 2012)

Mikeg23 said:


> The Incan lamp doesn't car which way the batteries go as long as there all the same


I'll move this out of the LED forum, into incan where it will be far less confusing.

Norm


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## Brasso (Oct 1, 2012)

Yep. A 200 lumen incan lamp is going to get really hot. But, unlike led's, that's not a problem. They are actually more efficient when hot. The run time was short because you were running an incan lamp. 

As someone here once said,

An incan produces light as a result of heat.
An led produces heat as a result of light.


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## lightfooted (Oct 1, 2012)

An incandescent light with an ultra-high output (P91 lamp?) lamp got hot? Imagine that ...

Most likely the lamp failed somehow...may not have been top quality or something. Unless you were running RCR123s in it....which would have over driven the lamp.

Did you ever at any time and for any reason TOUCH the actual lamp? It's possible that body oils could have been on the glass bulb and that would have led to premature failure of the Xenon halogen lamp. Basically the oil would have caused the heat generated to be reflected back into the lamp....causing it to overheat and burn out.

Now I realize you did not actually say you were using an incandescent but without further information I have to go on just what was presented here.


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## shawnf (Oct 1, 2012)

Brasso said:


> Yep. A 200 lumen incan lamp is going to get really hot. But, unlike led's, that's not a problem. They are actually more efficient when hot. The run time was short because you were running an incan lamp.
> 
> As someone here once said,
> 
> ...



Shoot you're right--it's a P91.
As I recall the last Surefire was an led (little green ball rather than little bulb with coil in it).
I'll try an led as this 15 minute stuff makes no sense except for tactical use, which I really have no use for.


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## Illum (Oct 1, 2012)

died in 10 minutes and got super hot... assuming the P91, this should be perfectly normal. Are you sure the lamp burned out? Is there anything within the envelope that can confirm it was a filament/globe failure?

I've taken apart a 9P in front of me. the cathode end of the cells has a much bigger surface area than the anode. so if one of your lamps is crooked, reversing the batteries might have correctly seated your lamp. If that was the case though, the center spring can fatally bridge the body, causing the batteries to short out immediately after you depressed the tailcap. 

What batteries were you using, and can you provide us with photos of your lamps?

I have several 9Ps, just none of them has seen a P91 and neither uses cr123as. Lotta love the P90+17500 setup :nana:



lightfooted said:


> Most likely the lamp failed somehow...may not have been top quality or something. Unless you were running RCR123s in it....which would have over driven the lamp.
> 
> Did you ever at any time and for any reason TOUCH the actual lamp? It's possible that body oils could have been on the glass bulb and that would have led to premature failure of the Xenon halogen lamp. Basically the oil would have caused the heat generated to be reflected back into the lamp....causing it to overheat and burn out.



if it was 3xRCR123As, the P91 would not have lasted 10 minutes... if it did, those must've been dead dead rcr123as

I think the hazard about touching lamps has more to do with heat convection through the lamp envelope. oils from out skin trap the heat causing uneven cooling. Heatspots eventually causes the envelope to fail. For this reason, projector lamps often explode if handled by hand prior to installation. Had the thread op's lamp exploded... the results would have been more dramatic. But from reading his post I don't sense such a dramatic incident have existed. Perhaps


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 1, 2012)

T45 said:


> You switched the DIRECTION the batteries went and it TURNED ON?!?!? that's....mind boggling. Hope someone can figure this out. In the meantime, Call Surefire and get that 9P sent in for repair.



The 9P Lamp Assembly is an incandecent LA (P90), and will turn on with batteries put in forward or backward. Just the nature of incandescent bulbs. Not so with LED's unless they have mechanical, or electrical reverse polarity protection.

Bill


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## Kestrel (Oct 1, 2012)

I'm wondering if the PTC's in the CR123's were triggering due to overheating, possibly the front cell nearest the (hot) LA? (i.e. "thermal shutdown")

Anybody know if the CR123 PTC will *reset* after cooldown or does the cell permanently retire at that point?

OP, who was the manufacturer of each set of cells? (Please keep in mind that the cell stack really needs to be a matched set of CR123's to provide optimum performance - i.e. cells from the same 'batch'.)

Just throwing a few ideas out there ... :thinking:


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## shawnf (Oct 2, 2012)

Kestrel said:


> I'm wondering if the PTC's in the CR123's were triggering due to overheating, possibly the front cell nearest the (hot) LA? (i.e. "thermal shutdown")
> 
> Anybody know if the CR123 PTC will *reset* after cooldown or does the cell permanently retire at that point?
> 
> ...



There were two sets -- Surefire SF123A and The Battery Station CR123A. These look identical but for the wrapper.

The bulb that burnt out was the original bulb that came with the 9P -- the bulb was blackish on the end and cloudy.

They did reset, as we fell asleep and the light came back on and woke us up.


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## Vesper (Oct 2, 2012)

What's your budget for a new LED drop-in? I'm sure you'll get a ton of good suggestions.


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## shawnf (Oct 2, 2012)

Vesper said:


> What's your budget for a new LED drop-in? I'm sure you'll get a ton of good suggestions.



I'd say less than 50$
I think a battery life of 2 hrs and 100 lumens would be ideal.
I wonder, is there a (lumens + time) rating, and extra weight given to lumens?
Something like 2(lumens) + (minutes).
For example, (a) 2(100 lumens) + (120 minutes) = 320 lumen-minutes.
(b) 2(80 lumens) + (240 minutes) = 400 lumen-minutes.
So (b) is the better light.


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## Brasso (Oct 2, 2012)

Try Nailbender.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-G2-P60-STYLE-MODULES-COOLWHITES-amp-NEUTRALS


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## Yoda4561 (Oct 2, 2012)

At 100 lumens you're looking at a battery life in excess of 8 hours with current LEDs.


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## HotWire (Oct 2, 2012)

I just burned out a Lumens Factory 9v bulb in my bored 9P with 2 AW IMR batteries. LF recommends this high output lamp stay on for no more than 10 minutes at a time. I was hunting black widow spiders in the back yard and probably had it on 15 minutes. Now I know. I've replaced it and use it for momentary inspections. I have other 9Ps for hunting spiders with both LED and low-output incandescent bulbs. Live & learn!


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## Mikeg23 (Oct 2, 2012)

I can't seem to get on lumens factorys website right now, but I seem to recall them having an extended runtime 9 volt that is not as bright.


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## Vesper (Oct 3, 2012)

Look at Malkoff's chart on voltage/lumen to get an idea of runtimes. His lower lumen dropins have great light output along with nice long runtime.

http://www.malkoffdevices.com/compare-flashlights.php


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## Illum (Oct 3, 2012)

shawnf said:


> There were two sets -- Surefire SF123A and The Battery Station CR123A. These look identical but for the wrapper.
> 
> The bulb that burnt out was the original bulb that came with the 9P -- the bulb was blackish on the end and cloudy.
> 
> They did reset, as we fell asleep and the light came back on and woke us up.




yep... thats a failed envelope on that lamp. Cloudy would mean tungsten reacted with oxygen entering from somewhere and formed tungsten trioxide [yellowish powder] while it was glowing hot. Despite being a consumer end product, that lamp was defective coming out of surefire. P90s should last well over 3-4 battery changes before failing. [I'd say so because I have yet to run my cr123A driven 9P past the 4th battery change] 



Mikeg23 said:


> I can't seem to get on lumens factorys website right now, but I seem to recall them having an extended runtime 9 volt that is not as bright.



Lumen factory made 3 lamps for the 3-cell P series as I recall. Lighthound has the specs up

```
EO-9
380 Lumens 
Runtime (3xCR123A): ~35 min
Runtime (2x3.7V Rechargeable): ~35 min

HO-9
320 Lumens
Runtime (3xCR123A): ~40 min
Runtime (2x3.7V Rechargeable): ~40 min

IMR-9
500 Lumens
Runtime (2 x IMR RCR123A): ~10 min
Runtime (2 x IMR 18650): ~35 min
```

Lighthound:
HO-9, EO-9, IMR-9


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## T45 (Oct 4, 2012)

Now THAT is news to me. I had always thought that batteries must be oriented in one direction, and one direction only. Hunh. 



Bullzeyebill said:


> The 9P Lamp Assembly is an incandecent LA (P90), and will turn on with batteries put in forward or backward. Just the nature of incandescent bulbs. Not so with LED's unless they have mechanical, or electrical reverse polarity protection.
> 
> Bill


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## Yoda4561 (Oct 4, 2012)

A 9p, and most other incan lights are pretty basic. The actual working bits amount to straight wire (flashlight body and mechanical switch) and a resistor (bulb). The current through the thin bulb filament creates the heat, and it doesn't matter a bit which direction it's flowing as long as the batteries are in series and making proper contact. It makes a big difference with lights that use electronics or LEDs, 99% of leds only work with the current flowing one way, reversing it with enough voltage will burn the LED out and a brief flash is all the light you'll ever get, the electronics that drive them are usually built to only work one way as well as a space and cost saving measure.


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## yellow (Oct 4, 2012)

In fact it is better for incans not to have the polarity the same all the time.

Best were AC voltage
(when there is a chart available for the bulb You use, the medium lifetime is at least 10 times higher, just when switching from DC to AC)


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## Mikeg23 (Oct 4, 2012)

Illum said:


> Lumen factory made 3 lamps for the 3-cell P series as I recall. Lighthound has the specs up
> Lighthound:
> HO-9, EO-9, IMR-9



Light hound doesn't have the whole product line up. I finally got lumens factory's website to work for me and they show four 9 volt set ups which do not specify the use of IMR cells.
ES-9 150 lumens
SR-9 220 lumens
HO-9 320 lumens
EO-9 380 lumens


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## Rat6P (Oct 4, 2012)

Did you mean you left the light turned on after it went out?. And then later it came back on by itself?
Be careful with lithium batteries. If a flashlight turns off by itself when you are using lithium batts be sure to physically turn the light off. Dont just leave it. There is a chance they may explode.

+1 on a LED module. So many choices. You can get comparable output to that P91 lamp but have a regulated/constant output for much longer than the incandescent.


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## ampdude (Oct 8, 2012)

The P91 is only meant for tactical use of 10 mins or so at a time, (at most) not extended runtimes.

The P90 is for extended use and should have been fine after you switched it back in. Not sure why the P90 burned out when you put it back in, bad luck?


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