# Effects of HID aimed at aircraft



## Spot (Jan 8, 2008)

Hi, I'm new and hope it's not rude to jump right in by starting a thread that I find of potential interest.

First, does anybody know if any FAA laws exist to govern aiming HID lighting from the ground at aircraft?

Second, can anyone estimate the lumens necessary to pose a risk to blinding pilots of rescue helicopters and aircraft in the vicinity?

Third, does anyone know if HID lighting is a good alternative for homeowner self-defense or does it pose a risk to eyesight (giving litigious intruders the upper hand in court if they claim damage to their eyesight)?

And finally, I have been mulling over the benefits of taking HID lighting on camping trips or excursions into remote areas in the regrettable event that an accident occurred, to get the attention of overhead aircraft. Obviously one would not want to blind the pilot! This train of thought lead to my pondering the general safety of HID lighting at high lumens, from kids playing with their parents' high-power HID flashlights to terrorists trying to abuse ultrahigh HID beams to blind pilots.

This thread may branch in a few directions and I hope that's okay! :thumbsup:


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## Ken J. Good (Jan 8, 2008)

You may want to consider these as opposed to an HID for signaling.
https://www.greatlandlaser.com/index.php

Smaller, lighter, runs way longer, seen from further distances:

Laws or no laws inside of 400 yards aimed at somebody's eyes, a good HID will cause that person temporary inability to see.

Wouldn't want to bring down the aircraft that came to save me....

As far as home-defense indoors, I wouldn't use one as my first choice. Too big/cumbersome at this point. Most of the smaller HID's do not have an instant strike capability....yet. If you are talking about dissuading unwanted activity outside the perimeter, the HID might be a good tool.


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## paulr (Jan 8, 2008)

HID's are ridiculously bulky and that laser thing just seems silly. What you want is a personal locator beacon (PLB). This is a device with a built-in GPS that transmits a signal containing your coordinates on a special emergency frequency. See www.equipped.org for lots of info.


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## Flashanator (Jan 8, 2008)

For home defense, maybe the Maxabeam's strobe mode? It wont cause permant damage like a high end laser pointer.


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## Ken J. Good (Jan 8, 2008)

Hmmm...I have a green laser pointer that I verified puts a green light on a house over 2 miles away. 

The green "string" can be seen from my position through the air for at least 1.5 miles....

Fairly attention getting for sure....How silly is that?

Not saying do not get tracking devices, Sat phones, etc. etc. etc. etc., but a small laser pointer in the wilderness in my view certainly should be considered.
My brother travels solo into the wilderness on a regular basis and he has elected to put one of these things on his person.

What happens when your TracMe fails? What happens when you laser doesn't work or you are in a position that deploying it is fruitless? What if, what it, what if....

To each his own I guess...


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## Burgess (Jan 8, 2008)

Multiple options would seem quite useful.


Can't beat a pen-sized green laser-pointer for a handy "backup".


Anything to help attract attention to your plight. :candle:
_


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## DM51 (Jan 8, 2008)

The title of this thread is not a sensible one. Deliberately aiming a bright light or laser at an aircraft is against the law. There is probably only one circumstance – dire emergency – when it might be excused, but even then you would be open to prosecution if the pilot considered that your action had endangered his aircraft. 

If you changed your title to discuss “safe way to signal an aircraft from the ground”, or merely “visibility of high-powered lights from a distance”, there might be a reason to keep this thread open. 

If there is any discussion here by anyone of activities that are against the law, the thread will be closed at once.


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## Ra (Jan 8, 2008)

According to the ICNIRP guidelines, HID does not ever have the surface brightness needed to cause permanent eye damage. Ofcource, this doesn't mean you can stare into the light for several minutes, staring into powerfull lights never is a good thing.. 

Have you ever looked directly at the sun with unprotected eyes..?? 

On surface brightness, the sun is much, much more powerfull than a (automotive..) HID light! Even when you don't know it, the sun constantly bombards your eyes. When you walk outside, the sun constantly causes temporarely blind spots in you perifial (?) vision, but I never heard anyone claim permanent eye-damage from that!

I have piloted some plains before: From a distance more than 300 yards you cannot impress me with pointing a HID at me.. Yes, at night, it will be anoying, and visibillity of objects close to the light will be poor, but it will never cause a crash! Even when you are closer, I can clearly see my instruments and decide a no-go for landing.

Few days ago, a friend of mine pointed Maxablaster at me from a distance of 500 yards at night. Impressive, but no eye damage! and even in that situation, I could perfectly see where I was going! Maxablaster is the only light that has about the same surface brightness as the sun! (Besides lasers ofcource..)

Do you realy think you're the only one with a powerfull light pointing at the skys?? Airline pilots see lots of lights, especially close to big cities, think about those mighty short-arc sky-beamers at special events or disco's.. They are randomly pointed at the sky, much, much more powerfull than your HID ever will be!! I've never heard of a plain with problems caused by lights like that! OK, in those cases, the exposure time is very short and those beams are very narrow, it's dificult to exactly fly through them..



Oh.. And indeed, when you are lost in a desert, a simple 10mW green laser pointer will grab one's attention over miles.. But the beam will not be visible from that distance, you must exactly aim at that person, or you will not be noticed. And you know how narrow those beams are.. But it shure would be handy when your GPS-locator doesn't work..


Best,

Ra.


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## Taboot (Jan 8, 2008)

Spot said:


> Third, does anyone know if HID lighting is a good alternative for homeowner self-defense or does it pose a risk to eyesight (giving litigious intruders the upper hand in court if they claim damage to their eyesight)?


 
Never bring a light to a gun fight. I don't mean this to sound extreme. However, a wise old man once told me "All fights are ultimately gunfights." If I am in a self-defense situation in my house, the only light I would grab would be attached to something more effective. 

Regards,

Taboot


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## Ken J. Good (Jan 8, 2008)

Taboot.

In order to win the gunfight in the dark, you better know how to win light fight first....

And I mean that in all sincerity.


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## Sigman (Jan 8, 2008)

I do like those signal/rescue lasers! They're very popular up here in Alaska. Greatland Laser does make a green one (as well as the red ones), but it's a bit pricey. HOWEVER, how can one put a price on life!!


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## Patriot (Jan 8, 2008)

Ken J. Good said:


> Taboot.
> 
> In order to win the gunfight in the dark, you better know how to win light fight first....
> 
> And I mean that in all sincerity.



A big +1 to that!

I think any HID is a poor choice for investigating bumps in the night while inside the house. They just don't turn on quickly enough. Now, if you want to stand on your back porch and investigate something at the back or your property an HID would probably be a good choice for that.



> *Ra*
> Oh.. And indeed, when you are lost in a desert, a simple 10mW green laser pointer will grab one's attention over miles.. But the beam will not be visible from that distance, you must exactly aim at that person, or you will not be noticed. And you know how narrow those beams are.. But it shure would be handy when your GPS-locator doesn't work..


That's one of the neat things about the green locater laser. It doesn't require a centered hit on the target. I paints a line like a brush stroke which make it much more likely to sweep across a distant aircraft or vehicle. The sweep line does diffuse the intensity of the beam but it makes a hit possible while still being bright enough to get someones attention. I don't own one but I have a friend who does. I was skeptical before seeing it but now I'm a believer.


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## Sigman (Jan 8, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> ...I was skeptical before seeing it but now I'm a believer.


...and so was I, now I'm a believer as well!


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## Spot (Jan 8, 2008)

Thank you all for sharing this information.

To those concerned about the hastily written title rest assured my goal for this topic is to gather legitimate information. My interest begain when I got an email advertising a 120 lumen tactical flashlight. I started searching the web for the biggest and baddest flashlight with the most lumens and found the MicroFire with 3500 lumens of power.

Now I'm considering the Blackhawk with adjustable 2400 and 2800 lumen settings, 110 minutes of rechargeable battery use, and 2000 lifespan hour GE bulb. It's about $100 less but about 4" greater in length (and about twice the MicroFire's weight). Does anyone have an opinion on this flashlight?

I found this forum by searching for the keywords "MicroFire 3500" and started wondering about the potential liability of owning such a flashlight. Thus this topic was born.

Hopefully others will feel comfortable sharing information as well, within the scope of this forum's policies, and in the spirit of the moderator's concern about withholding anything that might give unscrupulous people information that compromises safety.

May I also suggest the moderators surgically remove posts from this topic that violate these concerns but leave the good information intact? I've always believed in keeping the baby's bathwater clean while exercising care in not disturbing the baby, to paraphrase a cliche! :wave:


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## NextLight (Jan 8, 2008)

As others have stated, pointing any man-portable HID, LED, or tungsten light, towards an aircraft at distance, will often go unnoticed. Does that mean I will leave my BIG white light behind, when I go to the woods? No. 

Pointing a laser at an aircraft, even a mile away (perhaps two, depending on the power, color, conditions, etc) will likely be noticed...and reported. Lasers are small, cheap, and very noticeable at night, especially away from metro areas. Modulating the laser on-off in an SOS fashion is easy, and not only provides a "status report" but a (relative) bearing and location. At closer range, just make certain to point the laser BEHIND and BELOW the aircraft, to avoid illuminating the cockpit, and dazzling the crew. Though potentially effective, pointing a laser at an aircraft is still not the preferred method for asking for help. Cell phones, signal flares, two-way radio, and pointing a laser just generally up, are logical options.

As to home "defense" even big handheld HIDs do not pose a risk to an intruder's eyesight because people in the beam will involuntarily close their eyes, long before any permanent damage occurs. But if an intruder with hostile intent is armed with a firearm, they may start shooting...towards the light. Now what? 


Normally focused lasers above ~30mW, can cause eye damage, faster than a person on the receiving end can blink or avert their eyes. Is it preferable to be in court for "blinding" (permanently damaging) an intruders eyes with a laser, rather than for shooting them twice with a (insert your caliber here)? I suspect not. YMMV. 

If you want to learn to fight (in defense of your home and family) in reduced light conditions, take a/some course(s) from a well respected provider. As Ken J. Good implied (and he should know) winning a (gun)fight with a home intruder, especially in the dark, is not a trivial task; And it takes MUCH more than a bright light.


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## Taboot (Jan 8, 2008)

Ken J. Good said:


> Taboot.
> 
> In order to win the gunfight in the dark, you better know how to win light fight first....
> 
> And I mean that in all sincerity.


 
Respectfully, I disagree. You have a better chance of winning a gunfight in the dark with a gun than winning a gunfight with a light and NO gun. 

I want both.

R,

T


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## Spot (Jan 8, 2008)

Ken J. Good said:


> You may want to consider these as opposed to an HID for signaling.
> https://www.greatlandlaser.com/index.php
> 
> Smaller, lighter, runs way longer, seen from further distances:
> ...


 
This is EXACTLY what I have been looking for! Thank you so much for the referral! I'm going to purchase at least one. The "Rescue Laser Flare® Magnum" (https://www.greatlandlaser.com/index.php?productID=161) is simply amazing for a piece of technology under half a pound and costing under $110. These features got me jazzed:

Nighttime signaling device visible up to 20 miles (32 km) away, optimal conditions. Effective in daytime up to 3 miles.Locate reflective material up to one mile (1.6 km) Waterproof to 80 feet (24 m). Runs *72 hours* on two easily replaceable *AA batteries. *Carry in your survival gear or attach to a lifejacket.
Non Flammable, environmentally safe.
Rugged, machined aluminum. Annodized to prevent corrosion.
Long life laser diode - 10,000 hours meantime to failure.
Limited Lifetime Warranty. Detailed warranty, registration and operating instructions are included with product. Weighs 5.6 oz.
6" long.
I have always been afraid to drive through Death Valley or take a leisurely drive from my home in Silicon Valley up to Las Vegas because of those long stretches of highway. Now I can put this on the hood of my car if God forbid I were to break down, and have some hope of getting rescued.

The same holds true of scuba trips. Since this is good to 80 feet depth, I can carry it on me and have a good chance of getting found, if I come up and the boat's gone. (Like those people in that movie about a similar situation where the boat left them behind on a scuba diving trip.) Carrying it around on ocean excursions or hikes in national parks will be comforting.

This is the sort of thing I had in mind when creating this topic, wanting to find out if HID lighting is the answer to rescue needs. Now I know its laser lighting.

Incidentally, you might want to consider, when suggesting this technology to people, their level of sophistication about laser technology. I'm still in the 1990's regarding this specific technology and immediately pictured a LASER POINTER. (Yes, embarssed to admit, a laser pointer like the ones that were in vogue a decade and earlier in conference rooms. The type that gained controversy in the mid 1990's when a pilot was temporarily blinded by a focused beam of light from unknown source.)

So I was thinking, "you can't be serious" but then decided that as a published author, you deserve the benefit of doubt. Maybe there's something more to the term "laser" in this context than meets the eye? I reasoned maybe you were referring to a strobe or flare effect. I was delighted to discover I was right!

It occurs to me that if someone had a HID light and they waved it back and forth in a "shimmying" effect kind of like a strobe, they might accomplish a similar effect without endangering a pilot's night vision. However, this laser signaling device is the ideal solution for my needs.

Thanks again! :thumbsup:


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## HIDSGT (Jan 9, 2008)

Yea shinning any bright light at an aircraft is probably not a good idea unless your stranded on an island and signaling for help...:wave:


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## Patriot (Jan 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *Ken J. Good*
> 
> 
> _Taboot.
> ...





Taboot said:


> Respectfully, I disagree. You have a better chance of winning a gunfight in the dark with a gun than winning a gunfight with a light and NO gun.
> 
> I want both.
> 
> ...



Did you really think that Ken was suggesting that he or anyone else should go with a light and nothing else?
:thinking:


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## Patriot (Jan 9, 2008)

Spot said:


> Now I can put this on the hood of my car if God forbid I were to break down, and have some hope of getting rescued.



And just so you know, it still requires aiming. Simply turning it on and placing it on the hood won't do anything. You have to sweep that "laser line" across whatever you're trying to attract. 

Maybe this will make more sense: http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2356


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## paulr (Jan 9, 2008)

That laser thing got an IMO mixed review at ETS. Seemed to not really be better than a flashlight.

http://equipped.org/rescuelaser.htm


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## jrv (Jan 9, 2008)

Sigman said:


> I do like those signal/rescue lasers! They're very popular up here in Alaska. Greatland Laser does make a green one (as well as the red ones), but it's a bit pricey. HOWEVER, how can one put a price on life!!


Doug Ritter, a survival preparedness consultant, has a lengthy review of these at http://www.equipped.org/rescuelaser.htm including actual testing ground-to-ground and ground-to-air. They do require careful use to hit an airplane even with the line beam pattern (*edit* paulr beat me with the link).

As for manufacturer claims: the observer probably needs to be looking carefully in your direction to see it at 20 miles. and while the red laser is a diode the green is a DPSS and a little more fragile.

If you're traveling in areas where the environment is hazardous (desert heat, or mountain winter, etc) keep in mind that a rescue laser only works if there are rescuers searching for you! I would look into a PLB beacon (more below) and keep enough gear in the car to survive 24 hours in a desert until SAR guys arrive, longer in a snow situation. The laser *might* help, but it's the PLB that *will* get SAR activated to find you.

HID beams are not collimated and the power falls off rapidly. A laser carries much further but has the disadvantage that you must be careful with a helicopter closing in on you a few hundred feet away - the pilot can't afford temporary blindness!

PLB: not all beacons have GPS units built in. The "alert" is picked up by satellites, not ground stations, and relayed to a ground station. GPS coordinates, if included in the signal, use a special format that I'm not sure is even used by any ground station outside the US (the satellites locate the beacon by doppler anyway but this is not precise). All PLBs also broadcast a homing signal rescuers can use to find you once they get within the few miles of precision the satellites give (a few hundred yards for GPS IIRC - they don't uplink high-precision GPS coordinates as there isn't room in the packet).

A rescue laser (aka laser flare) has the advantage that you know that any rescuer can see it, whereas it's possible some teams might not have direction finders on the PLB homing frequency.

PLB/SARSAT works anywhere in the world but remember it takes a while for SAR to get to you. If you surface from a dive and, oops, the boat is gone, a PLB is the best option (they're all waterproof) but it's going to be hours until SAR arrives, and the PLB needs to be kept about water the entire time so that the satellites can get a fix on the location and keep track of drift. The EPIRBs large ships use are essentially PLBs.


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## Spot (Jan 9, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> And just so you know, it still requires aiming. Simply turning it on and placing it on the hood won't do anything. You have to sweep that "laser line" across whatever you're trying to attract.
> 
> Maybe this will make more sense: http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2356


 
Is there any type of "flare" that "strobes" or rotates the beam in the shape of a dome so it covers the space around it for so many miles?

Take the car breakdown. Suppose I'm busy trying to change the tire and want to place it on the top of the car to get attention? Or I'm bobbing around in stormy waters and want the flare to attract attention from aircraft out there in the distance, but don't know which way to aim it? There might be one aircraft 5 miles in front of me, and another 3 miles behind me... which one do I aim my flare? If it's covering a dome shaped area from the surface of the water 360-deg around me and the air space above me for so many miles, it will attract attention from everything from ships to aircraft. I might be facing one direction as a ship is passing behind me.

The laser is a nice rescue tool but I can envision instances where I simply do not know where to definitively aim it (and maybe I'm injured and don't have the strength to aim it). Isn't there something that created a bright flash in all directions that can be seen for miles?

Thanks.


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## Spot (Jan 9, 2008)

jrv said:


> PLB/SARSAT works anywhere in the world but remember it takes a while for SAR to get to you. If you surface from a dive and, oops, the boat is gone, a PLB is the best option (they're all waterproof) but it's going to be hours until SAR arrives, and the PLB needs to be kept about water the entire time so that the satellites can get a fix on the location and keep track of drift. The EPIRBs large ships use are essentially PLBs.


 
Do you recommend a good brand? Thanks for the info!


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## jrv (Jan 9, 2008)

Spot said:


> Do you recommend a good brand? Thanks for the info!


I have ACR's ResQFix in my RV. There's a brief description here http://www.equipped.org/shot_show_2007_gear.htm#microfix and much discussion of such things on the forums there.

I'm happy to say that I *don't* have any first-hand experience with how well that PLB works!


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## Sigman (Jan 9, 2008)

Outdoor awareness dictates it pays to have more than one method to signal with. A signal "kit" consisting of various items would be advisable (including a simple whistle & signal mirror as well).


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## Taboot (Jan 9, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> Did you really think that Ken was suggesting that he or anyone else should go with a light and nothing else?
> :thinking:




No and my apologies to Ken if my tone was wrong. 

I guess I am just skeptical when it comes to thinking of a flashlight of any kind as a self-defense item. Statements from manufacturers like "You can temporarily blind an attacker" and the like seem misleading to me. It suggests that shining a light at someone intent on harming you is going to have a meaningful effect on the overall outcome. In my way of thinking, this is unlikely.

You're right though, nobody was suggesting anything otherwise. sorry.


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## Lightraven (Jan 9, 2008)

To answer the first question, without knowing a specific answer, it seems that aiming a bright light at any moving vehicle at night should be done for a purpose, with due caution to the driver's ability to see--land vehicle, air or sea. In fact, there are regulations about shining a bright spotlight at a boat with the wording something to the effect of not "embarassing" the other boater.

It was done to me during a night training exercise by the captain of a car carrier on a Georgia river who wanted the entire channel to himself and put his vessel spotlight directly on my boat. After an exchange of ideas over the marine band, my instructor flipped on the blue strobes. "Sorry about that, captain. Have a good night," and the spotlight shut off was the response. You never know who you're spotlighting. 

Having worked with helicopters extensively, I know they have no problem with typical flashlights pointed at them as a locator when they request it as a ground reference. I was careful not to aim my Costco HID at our bird, though, just to be safe. A few years ago, one of our guys was attacked and knocked unconscious, and got a bird to his location with a Maxabeam when he came to. Once you get the bird's attention, though, I'd lower the beam to shine along the ground.

A laser has a lot of merit for this type of thing, also--especially for search personnel with night vision technology. A laser is extremely visible to Generation III goggles and probably thermal. It doesn't need to be aimed so much as waved around. 

Having been involved in the occasional search and rescue on land and sea (nothing by air, yet), the typical search initiates as a result of a call by radio or cell phone or a survivor getting to help and sending a search party for those who stay behind. The problem with mirrors, lights, flares, fires, gunshots and lasers is they are ambiguous in their message. People hunt, shoot, camp and play around with these things all the time, so you want something that is an unambiguous distress call--radio, PLB, EPIRB, cell phone. A light flashing SOS would work with most serious boaters and pilots at night. 

As for the home defense, obviously the purpose of the light is to identify a threat. Too many people shoot family members because they "heard a noise" and assumed it must be a burglar--one that presented an immediate deadly threat, no less. I wouldn't worry about lawsuits when shining a light in a home invader's(') eyes--you'd have much bigger problems.


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## Patriot (Jan 9, 2008)

Spot said:


> Is there any type of "flare" that "strobes" or rotates the beam in the shape of a dome so it covers the space around it for so many miles?
> 
> Take the car breakdown. Suppose I'm busy trying to change the tire and want to place it on the top of the car to get attention? Or I'm bobbing around in stormy waters and want the flare to attract attention from aircraft out there in the distance, but don't know which way to aim it? There might be one aircraft 5 miles in front of me, and another 3 miles behind me... which one do I aim my flare? If it's covering a dome shaped area from the surface of the water 360-deg around me and the air space above me for so many miles, it will attract attention from everything from ships to aircraft. I might be facing one direction as a ship is passing behind me.
> 
> ...




It sounds like you might do much better with a strobe light in the situations that you described Spot. A strobe is nearly omni-directional so it doesn't require aiming and can be seen from any reasonable angle.

The reason that the laser flare won't work as you described is because that laser line only sweeps a very small degree or segment of sky. Unless the target happened to be in the little part of the sky and they were actually looking towards you, they're not going to see the signal. Not only do you have to aim the laser, the speed of the sweep is important too. The slower you sweep the laser across the target the longer the laser is shining directly at it. The laser flare probably should be called a flare in the traditional sense since it it's more of a "fire and forget" type of system. One you shoot or ignite a flare it does it's thing until it burns out. The deliberate aiming the laser flare is watch makes it work. By targeting a potential rescuer by constantly aiming at them it increases the chances that someones eyes might eventually look in that exact direction. I mean, it might catch the eye if it's 10-15 degrees from where someone is looking, but it's not going to be seen 90 degrees to the direction someone is looking especially at any great distance.

In my opinion the manufacturer attraction distances are wildly overstated, but if it works at 1/5 the claimed distance, which I think it does, then it could still be useful. 

Did you get a chance to watch that video or see those diagrams? It gives a pretty good idea of how a person would go about signaling an aircraft.


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## Patriot (Jan 9, 2008)

Taboot said:


> I guess I am just skeptical when it comes to thinking of a flashlight of any kind as a self-defense item. Statements from manufacturers like "You can temporarily blind an attacker" and the like seem misleading to me. It suggests that shining a light at someone intent on harming you is going to have a meaningful effect on the overall outcome. In my way of thinking, this is unlikely.



Amen to that brother!

It's amazing how many people have been misled by flashlight marketing, even by reputable manufactures like Surefire. As you know, bright light can certainly ring someone's bell for a few seconds but after that, good luck, if we're not prepared to take the next step if required.


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## Ken J. Good (Jan 9, 2008)

Taboot:

I think it's just the nature of a discussion board. I think we are on the same sheet of music.

I am in no way suggesting to expect to deal with people with only the the light that comes out of the end of a flashlight...

That being said, what I am saying is that if you can successfully disorient somebody's perception PRIOR to the actual touch (strike, kick, takedown, cut, shot, etc.) you are far better off and stand a greater probability of success in the engagement.

As the "emitter", you are also well-advised as to where, when, how, and how long to emit in any given situation.

Therefore it is a photon game prior to the contact game.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming.


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## Taboot (Jan 9, 2008)

Ken J. Good said:


> Taboot:
> 
> That being said, what I am saying is that if you can successfully disorient somebody's perception PRIOR to the actual touch (strike, kick, takedown, cut, shot, etc.) you are far better off and stand a greater probability of success in the engagement.
> 
> ...


 
Hmmm. I see your point of view. However, I guess when I envision a home invasion or other self-defense scenario, I envision an extremely rapid, frightening and chaotic timeline. I imagine myself fumbling to turn on the light and not quite knowing whether to point it at the attacker or around the attacker to see if there is another attacker. I also worry that I might be providing a target for the attacker who is probably better at this than me. Just some discussion points. 

In any case, in a tough jam, I would love to be able to reach for a light like the ones you promote. 

Cheers,

T


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## TMorita (Jan 10, 2008)

DM51 said:


> The title of this thread is not a sensible one. Deliberately aiming a bright light or laser at an aircraft is against the law. There is probably only one circumstance – dire emergency – when it might be excused, but even then you would be open to prosecution if the pilot considered that your action had endangered his aircraft.
> 
> If you changed your title to discuss “safe way to signal an aircraft from the ground”, or merely “visibility of high-powered lights from a distance”, there might be a reason to keep this thread open.
> 
> If there is any discussion here by anyone of activities that are against the law, the thread will be closed at once.


 
Yep. There have been a lot of people arrested lately for shining lasers at aircraft. Here's a few.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/31/aircraft.laser/
http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/23237
http://www.cityofboise.org/Departments/Police/NewsReleases/2007/page18472.aspx

Toshi


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## sed6 (Jan 10, 2008)

TMorita said:


> Yep. There have been a lot of people arrested lately for shining lasers at aircraft. Here's a few.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/31/aircraft.laser/
> http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/23237
> ...


 
Clearly one shouldn't point lasers at helicopters, especially police helicopters, as was the case in 3 of the 4 stories I read!


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## MikeLip (Jan 10, 2008)

There is a laser system specifically designed to signal aircraft for rescue purposes. It doesn't just shine a beam - it seems to sweep out an arc making it much more likely to be seen by the aircraft, while not staying on target long enough to do any damage. See this link;

https://www.greatlandlaser.com/index.php?howtheywork=yes


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## DM51 (Jan 10, 2008)

That has already been mentioned above.


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## MikeLip (Jan 10, 2008)

It bears repeating.

Or maybe not 

I wonder how well it works though? And if it's actually any better than a good flashlight?


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## DM51 (Jan 10, 2008)

Sigman thinks highly of them, and Patriot36 says he knows someone who has one. I don't know if anyone has done a report on them here on CPF.

They do sound safe to use, as any flash that hits the eye is short enough not to be able to do any damage, but at the same time long enough to attract attention. It is a neat idea.

However if, as you say, things bear repeating in this thread, it is also worth repeating that any frivolous (let alone dangerous) use of bright lights by shining them at aircraft would be likely to lead to prosecution.


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## SilverFox (Jan 10, 2008)

Hello Spot,

Welcome to CPF.



Spot said:


> Is there any type of "flare" that "strobes" or rotates the beam in the shape of a dome so it covers the space around it for so many miles?



I have been looking at the PowerFlare. I am going to check some out to see how well they perform. It appears that normal flares can damage the water supply, so law enforcement and emergency response people are shifting from normal flares to these PowerFlares.

www.powerflare.com is the web site.

Tom


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## MikeLip (Jan 10, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Spot,
> 
> Welcome to CPF.
> 
> ...



Well, there's no free lunch. You have to consider the environmental cost of making and running the battery operated flare too. But it seems they ought to be safer at an accident scene.

I seriously doubt the environmental impact of road flares is significant compared to, say, operating the car they are riding in!


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## SilverFox (Jan 10, 2008)

Hello MikeLip,

I have a couple of them and carry one while kayaking.

In the daylight, you have to be looking for the signal to see it, but it is visible for quite some distance. At night it is more visible, but I still think you need to be looking for it.

The biggest drawback is that you need to be able to aim it toward your target. If you are unable to aim it, or if no one is looking, you won't be seen.

They are very durable and are able to handle both salt and fresh water without problems. I have the red ones. I asked about the green ones, but was told that they were more fragile and in rugged use I would be better off with the red.

Tom


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## MikeLip (Jan 10, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello MikeLip,
> 
> I have a couple of them and carry one while kayaking.
> 
> ...



Are you talking about signal lasers? I would bet in that case that for sure green would be more fragile in that they are DPSS, which requires some fairly precise optic setup.


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## LED61 (Jan 10, 2008)

When talking about lights being shined at aircraft consider the following:

1) In visual meteorological conditions (VMC), approach lights in the runway and runway lights are turned down to a minimum intensity, so that pilots may preserve their night vision to the fullest in the most critical phase of flight.

2) Aircraft in the taxiways taxiing onto the active runway are asked to turn off their landing lights and use only the taxi lights for the same reasons.

Some HID's come very close or are even more powerful than some landing lights.


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## Burgess (Jan 10, 2008)

Any idea what the PowerFlare costs ? ? ?


Talking about the CR123A version.

_


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## SilverFox (Jan 11, 2008)

Hello Burgess,

They are in the middle of raising prices. I believe the price increase goes into effect at the end of January.

Right now, I believe a single unit with red or amber LED's is around $45. The ones with green, or blue, or white LED's are just under $50, and IR units are just under $110. You can get some reduction in price if you order several units, but I am not sure how many, or how much off.

They also offer six packs of rechargeable units. The come with a carry bag and a charger. The units use a R-CR123 cell. I believe the price is around $500.

Tom


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 11, 2008)

Looking at your link for those, and seeing the police car that had a trunk fire from flares that caught fire, wouldn't it be ironic if they had one or more of the 123 cells explode and catch fire in the trunk, as we have seen on this forum?


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## Spot (Jan 11, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> Did you get a chance to watch that video or see those diagrams? It gives a pretty good idea of how a person would go about signaling an aircraft.


 
Yes, and I purchased a laser signalling flare that is marine grade (waterproof to 80 feet). I now understand how it sends an arc.

Interestingly the laser signalling flare will sweep across a landscape and illuminate anything reflective to make it "sparkle". Even the N on a pair of New Balance shoes became visible from a long distance. I think what they do is one person sweeps the laser back and forth across the landscape, and the straight-line arc from the laser has the effect of rendering visible anything reflective (from reflective shoes to reflective material on jackets and backpacks). The fast back/forth sweeping of the laser arc makes the entire landscape visible as if a giant flood was on the landscape. It's a fascinating use of focused lighting to allow the eye to see a large area on the ground from an aircraft (as well as its conventional signalling use from the ground to aircraft above).


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## BVH (Jan 11, 2008)

Ahhh...the self igniting flare issue. We had no less than 3 cop cars burn up because of this.


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## SJMorgan (Jan 11, 2008)

Many aircraft have HID landing lights. I can't remember ever being blinded by an aircraft landing light in flight, even when pointed directly at an aircraft a couple of miles away. 

Lasers, on the other hand, can be problematic, as that sort of light is perceived differently than an HID bear. However, it will have to be something brighter than your usual classroom pointer. 

As for shining lights at aircraft in flight, unless they are very close to the ground, the pilots probably wont even notice. Consider the angle from the ground, upwards. It is not likely that you can get a direct shot into the cockpit from such an angle on approach or departure. 

Of course, if you can see the pilot's eyes, then you are probably close enough to blind that pilot with an HID flashlight. My guess is that the pilot in that particular case probably is not in an aircraft.

The use of strobes and landing lights on the ground is a different sort of problem. The reason for leaving strobes and landing lights off is much the same as driving with your low beams in traffic, or dipping the lights for on coming traffic. No need to blind somebody that you don't have to.

In flight, we "put a candle in the window", which means that we turn everything on so that we can be seen (and no, we don't turn the lights off for oncoming traffic). That is precisely whey many aircraft are now being fitted with HID lighting systems. 

And the last thing is that pilots flying above 5000' don't have much in the way of night vision unless they are relying on supplemental oxygen. Unless they were looking for your HID flashlight, they probably would not notice it.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jan 11, 2008)

LOTSA food for thought in this thread.

Some sort of EPIRB seems like the best option for many people.


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## Spot (Jan 13, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Spot,
> 
> Welcome to CPF.
> 
> ...


 
With thanks to Ken Good recommending a laser distress signal shortly after starting this thread, I ordered the "Rescue Laser Magnum 72 hour emergency distress signal" for $109.95 plus $23.40 for UPS Second Day Air, from http://www.greatlandlaser.com/. It arrived on my doorstep two days later.

I'm very impressed with the compact machined aluminum (black) casing. The unit is rated as non-flammable, poses "no fire hazard" and is "environmentally safe . . . equal to 4,320 1-minute flares"! It appears to have a tiny carbon footprint, especially if one uses rechargeable lithium ion batteries I suppose (instead of one-time alkaline batteries).

Other stated features I have not tested: it signals up to 20 miles at night and 5 miles during broad daylight. This light even works as a search light and you are supposed to spot reflective gear up to a mile away by aiming this light across the landscape.

It's WATERPROOF (not just water resistant) to a depth of 80 feet, good for divers, surfers and swimmers, and it's non-corrosive for marine and outdoors applications.

It just looks good, is light but with a little heft to it. I aimed it across a dark room. It yields an approx. 18 inch x 0.5 inch sharp beam.

The unit comes with 2 Universal Super-Alkaline AA batteries. I like the use of AA batteries because these are so common and inexpensive at COSTCO. These batteries are supposed to last for 72 hours. The laser bulb diode is rated at 10,000 hours life expectancy before needing replacement.

I will now check out the web link you gave to PowerFlare.com. Thanks for the referral link.


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## Spot (Jan 13, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Spot,
> 
> Welcome to CPF.
> 
> ...


 
I looked at PowerFlare.com and this is exactly what I had in mind and for under $50 per flare.

http://www.powerflare.com/

The CR123 batteries in these flares last up to 10 years in storage, the flare is waterproof to 300 feet, visible up to several miles on a highway, and there's approx. a dozen LED lights that create patterns in colors including red, blue, green, amber and invisible infrared (like SOS signals, other emergency signals, pulsing for helicopter landings and even steady patterns to use as a lantern in a power outage at home).

The Power Flare is tested by police in Santa Clara County and looks very impressive. Thanks for the referral. I will probably buy a few.

I wonder if substituting rechargeable batteries will damage the LED lights? I've ready horror stories of burned out flashlight bulbs from rechargeable batteries and some web stores even post warnings as such.

In any case the flare will last up to 100 hours per battery, not bad for $3 per battery in an emergency.


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## adamlau (Jan 13, 2008)

Those PowerFlares look interesting. Might have to try and mod one into a Super PowerFlare...


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## Sigman (Jan 13, 2008)

Spot said:


> ...I aimed it across a dark room. It yields an approx. 18 inch x 0.5 inch sharp beam...


Just to clarify: the further away the target, the longer the line is. So it's not like one is aiming an 18" line at a target that's several thousand feet away. I've got the 123 version, smaller - but I think runtime is 40 hours as compared to the AA version's 72.


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## DesertDoc (Jan 13, 2008)

About shining spotlights at aircraft: In the departure or landing of an aircraft, this would be an incredibly dumb thing to do. During flight, I doubt much would be noted at high altitude.

About Lasers:

Unless you are willing to stand in court and defend yourself (with hopefully an aggressive attorney with a really strong track record), do NOT shine a laser at any aircraft, military or civilian. Green/Red/Blue/ or ANY emitters, .5 mw to 125 mw. It is currently illegal, and will very probably cost you a hefty fine, or possible jail time (as one gentleman in CONUS found as he wanted to see if he could "see his laser hit an airliner" a few months ago.)

Reading these responses seem to suggest that within a certain output of handheld laser devices, the pilot won't be permanently affected. They, in many cases are correct. Currently, when one of our military pilots is "dazzled" by a laser device while flying, he has to undergo extensive testing, while grounded to ascertain the risk that he or she incurred...in most cases, the laser output is minimal, but the flight crew has no idea the output of the device (note that it's quite difficult to ask the guy on the ground if he is using a "safe level of light.") Further, if you are shining an aircraft with only one pilot, you may cause a temporary loss of night vision to that pilot. A single place fighter aircraft comes to mind, as does a pilot of a Cessna. End result could be fatal.

Think about it.

So in short, don't do it...and if you do, get a really good lawyer. I'll be interested in watching the outcome of your case on the news.

Cheers,

DesertDoc


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## jrv (Jan 13, 2008)

DesertDoc said:


> It is currently illegal, and will very probably cost you a hefty fine, or possible jail time (as one gentleman in CONUS found as he wanted to see if he could "see his laser hit an airliner" a few months ago.)


Actually I'm having trouble finding evidence of any such federal law.

I've found one federal prosecution - probably the same thing - and that was a general-purpose "interfering with an aircraft" law, not anything to do with lasers. And it appears that what goy that guy in trouble wasn't the laser but rather lying to investigators. I can't find news reports on how it came out so I'm guessing a plea bargain. The FAA has regulations within 10 miles of an airport, but this appears to affect laser exhibitions? Not clear just how much authority FAA has here.

I understand California has a state law of some sort. Most media reports of arrests seem to be in California and involve helicopters flying very, very low.

It would be interesting to know what the radiance power (watts per area) of a particular LED flashlight are then just go out one night and see what happens, and calculate how far from a laser than is. It's a little hard to model since a pilot's pupil is only 8mm yet power entering the cockpit may reflect into the pilot's eye. Claims of being blinded by a laser pointer seem hard to swallow based on guestimations, but temporary (seconds, not minutes) loss of dark adaptation is more plausible.


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## DesertDoc (Jan 15, 2008)

JRV,

Agreed...please keep in mind for a single place high performance aircraft, seconds can make a serious difference. My main concern. A temporarily blinded task-saturated pilot is not a good thing. The AF takes a very serious view of pilots being dazzled primarily for this reason. 

Of course, very close exposure of laser light of a high output, with a 6-8 mm aperture of the pupil can still reap some pretty significant effects (obviously not at 14K ft AGL, but much closer, in where the beam divergence hasn't "watered down" the effect.)...macular injury is unfortunately a problem with higher powered laser targeting pointers, and many are in the low power range of 30 or so mw (compared to the miniscule .5 mw of most cheap handheld pointers). In some cases brought into treatment, the emission can be measured in hundreds of meters. 

In those cases, intraocular steroid treatment has been the standard in an effort to decrease permanent damage, and not a pleasant therapy...(at least from my view.) 

I personally believe this can be considered a viable threat considering the current crop of moderately expensive, but obtainable 125 mw handheld laser devices.

Laser designation for air ops from the ground (SOF for example) is typically shining IR lasers in sweeping motions pointed at ground, not air. I cannot speak for green or blue lasers, since during my stay with these units, IR and red were the standard, and worked well with NODs...a few years back.

All of this aside, dazzling is not a good thing for anyone night adapted, especially due to the lag time to readjust. I particularly take offense to the idea of someone using a laser as a toy to see if they can get a pilot's attention, both from the military standpoint, and the fact that my oldest child is an AF fighter pilot, who I do consider a much more valuable asset than the individual shining a laser at aircraft for fun.

In a true no-kidding survival situation, I believe that common sense would prevail, and any way to get a pilot's attention is probably game (within reason)...but as mentioned, should truly be a survival situation, and not an "experiment." I am not acquainted with the qualifications, especially SERE qualifications of the non-military "experts" instructing utilization of lasers for survival. I'll claim ignorance on my part.

I suppose I'm preaching to the choir, but my perception of the initiation of this e-mail trail is not to ascertain the long term damage, or the efficacy of using high powered lighting for rescue, but primarily to see if someone will "get in trouble" for shining aircraft for entertainment.

-Cheers

-DesertDoc


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## Patriot (Jan 15, 2008)

Spot said:


> Yes, and I purchased a laser signalling flare that is marine grade (waterproof to 80 feet). I now understand how it sends an arc.




Ah, good deal spot. I'm glad that you ended up with what you were looking for. It sounds very nice and probably a step or two up from what my buddy has. It is older, one of the originals. Given that I was still somewhat impressed with the visibility of his, yours must really be bright. Hopefully it will last you a long time.


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## X_Marine (Jun 24, 2010)

Dang Spot, you know how to stir it up don't you. 

After reading some of your very intelligent questions I will now need to pack a few more items. :tinfoil:

Oh ya, Welcome to CPF.. :welcome: 
And as I see you are already in waste deep so you will soon know why lovecpf 

I'm also a little jealous that you start a thread and get such great members replying to it. Patriot, Lux, Silver, DM51 and a special friend Sigman. :bow: Not to mention JoeShmoe.

Excellent post and stirring dialect. 
You go Spot.. :twothumbs 

X/BillyD..


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## dudemar (Jun 25, 2010)

X_Marine said:


> Oh ya, Welcome to CPF.. :welcome:
> And as I see you are already in waste deep so you will soon know why lovecpf




Kind of a late welcome for a member who last logged in 2 1/2 years ago...:duh2:























...oh, and the obligatory HOLY DEAD THREAD REVIVAL!!!!!!!!!!


.


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## Walterk (Jun 25, 2010)

No light is dangerous for aircraft but laserlight.

There is research available on this, look at www.laserpointersafety.com. 
Among the downloads you find some reports, escpecially look at ' A 55-page Dutch study of laser and searchlight effects on pilots. Many excellent photos.'.

With (bonus) formulas to calculate the intensity the surface brightness of the spotlights lightsource from lux-measurements.


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## Spot (Jun 25, 2010)

X_Marine wrote:

> Dang Spot, you know how to stir it up don't you.

I try.

> After reading some of your very intelligent questions I will now need to pack a few more items.

Looking forward to the views of an ex-Marine. I gather HID is all the rage on the battlefield these days. Do you agree or is there mil tech that even surpasses HID?

> Oh ya, Welcome to CPF.. 

Thank you! After approx. 2.5 years I was delighted to get an auto-email of a posting on this forum!

> And as I see you are already in waste deep so you will soon know why

The topic looks a lot deeper!:sick2:

Thanks to your belated reply, I'm back here!:tinfoil:


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## Spot (Jun 25, 2010)

Walterk said:


> No light is dangerous for aircraft but laserlight.
> 
> There is research available on this, look at www.laserpointersafety.com.
> Among the downloads you find some reports, escpecially look at ' A 55-page Dutch study of laser and searchlight effects on pilots. Many excellent photos.'.
> ...


 
I have a feeling that if some kid living near the airport got hold of his dad's HID, went out in his backyard and shined it at a low landing commercial aircraft passing over the house, and it entered the cockpit, there would be a big law enforcement and media frenzy. Just my gut feeling.


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## dudemar (Jun 25, 2010)

This thread has run its course.


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## Larbo (Jun 25, 2010)

Unless I needed to be rescued aiming any kind of light or laser would no doubt be a foolish thing to do, unless you want 6 police cars a helicopter, 3 fire trucks, a dozen or so feds and the swat team converging on your house...also having every road within 2 miles blocked off for extra effect :shakehead
This would also make you the "big story" on action news.


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## waxworkz (Jun 27, 2010)

Taboot said:


> Respectfully, I disagree. You have a better chance of winning a gunfight in the dark with a gun than winning a gunfight with a light and NO gun.
> 
> I want both.
> 
> ...



i think the best home defense is a layered system.

1. lights that are motion activated in the driveway
2. make sure doors/windows are locked(believe it or not most burglaries occur when a door or window is left open)
3. a big *** dog in the house(i have 4, just in case one wusses out)
4. firearm, i have a 44 mag desert eagle for home defense loaded with snake shot. i dont want to kill, until the third round comes up. first two are snake shot, 3-8 are hollow points


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## Larbo (Jun 27, 2010)

waxworkz said:


> 4. firearm, i have a 44 mag desert eagle for home defense loaded with snake shot. i dont want to kill, until the third round comes up. first two are snake shot, 3-8 are hollow points



Was wondering if the snake shot cycled the action??:candle:


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## ajl (Jun 27, 2010)

Just for informational purposes, one local received a one year jail sentence for shining a light last year on landing Navy jets on the outskirts of Jacksonville. See http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/crime/2009-05-07/story/pestering_navy_planes_nets_1-year_sentence


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## Spot (Jun 28, 2010)

1 year is a remarkable price to pay. Of course if the trainee crashed the jet and failed to eject, tack on manslaughter.:mecry:


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