# 8x12/14 Variable Speed Upgrade?



## xl97 (Jun 10, 2009)

I have read a few posts about people upgrading their 8x12/14's to a Variable Speed Motor instead of the stock motor option that needs gears to be changed in order to change speeds for different tasks/materials.

I am starting a thread to educate myself on this process more specifically..

focus:
motors people have used & recommend 
motor prices

what else is needed for this type of upgrade (controller card?...mounting hardware?)

and other special touches/upgrades that go along with this one to make it a 'finished' project (ie: tach/sensor addition?..RPM readouts?..etc)


I am VERY new.. (just got my first lathe as a matter of fact..and am still setting it up/cleaning it)

so Im not looking to jump the gun...just starting a thread/conversation on the topic.. to see if there is a kit? a how-to (besides just pictures), parts list/prices ..total cost something like this runs

so down the line I'll be better educated and understand when Im ready for this.


----------



## wquiles (Jun 10, 2009)

xl97 said:


> I have read a few posts about people upgrading their 8x12/14's to a Variable Speed Motor instead of the stock motor option that needs gears to be changed in order to change speeds for different tasks/materials.
> 
> I am starting a thread to educate myself on this process more specifically..
> 
> ...



Here you go - LOTs of pictures to show you how I did it 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/171871

and

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=193712


- Motor should be $100 or less on Ebay
- Controller (new) was about $40-50 on Ebay

The other thing I would recommend would be a DRO from Shumatech, Shars, etc..

Will


----------



## xl97 (Jun 10, 2009)

Thanks.. I think I actually emailed you the other day asking about mounting scales....etc

I would like to get a Shumatec DRO.. but seems a little out of my league for now.. but would like to get soem scales mounted.. (no mill to make any brackets though) 

wanted to do the same as you did for the 12" X axis/bed scale.. and then use a vertical 8" scale to mount for the cross slide.. (but not on chuck side. 

but again..not worth buying the scales..until I can either buy a set of mounts or figure out a way to mount them.


back to Variable speed.. your post was actually one of the first I read and made me decide I wanted to do it.. (so thanks)

your motor seemed kind of big (at least to me)..anything closer in size? Im not sure what I need to look for in a motor that will for sure work.

also want controller do I need to get? are there differnt kinds? or a specific one to look for?

mounting scales is my first project.. (outside of figuring out what QTCP to get)..

then variable speed motor. 

think this is too much for a noobie? in a year or so.. Id liek to convert to a DIY CNC kit of some kind... anything I need to keep in mind for that?

oh..and Id like to keep the power to a 110/120 hookup. I got no 220 in my garage.. is this possible?

thanks


----------



## wquiles (Jun 11, 2009)

xl97 said:


> Thanks.. I think I actually emailed you the other day asking about mounting scales....etc
> 
> I would like to get a Shumatec DRO.. but seems a little out of my league for now.. but would like to get soem scales mounted.. (no mill to make any brackets though)
> 
> ...




The KB controllers are made for 110V, 220V, or dual (like the one I bought). If you only have 110V, no problem - just get the 110V controller, and of course, get a 90V DC motor instead of the 180V DC motor that I got. A true 0.5HP to a 1HP DC motor would be perfect - just take your time on Ebay until you can find a good, name brand, USA-made motor. I would prefer the 1HP motor, but here are some 1/2HP motors to consider:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Leeson-DC-Motor-C42D17FK1C-1-2-HP-1750-RPM-90-Volt_W0QQitemZ170340836458QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27a91ae46a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1205|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

http://cgi.ebay.com/DAYTON-90-Volt-DC-Motor-2M168D-New-Old-Stock_W0QQitemZ320381084181QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4a98336215&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1205|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50


For the controller, this is a 220V model, but it gives you an idea of what I used:
http://cgi.ebay.com/KB-Electronics-DC-Motor-Controller-KBMM-225-w-SI-6_W0QQitemZ150351217764QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2301a18464&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1205|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

Will


----------



## xl97 (Jun 11, 2009)

Thanks for the parts links..

so a motor about $100 (tops)..maybe even score one for less..

maybe used?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Leeson-1-HP-90-...66:2|39:1|72:1205|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

are their certain things I should look for when motor shopping?

DC
90V

anything else?


As far as the controller board?

things to look for to ensure Im even looking at the correct type?

Input 110v
Does it need to have PWM support? (I see some stating that?)
Does it need to say Reversable?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Reversible-DC-M...66:2|39:1|72:1205|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

seems to be too small to handle 110v input...

maybe this one?
http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-motor-contro...66:2|39:1|72:1205|240:1318|301:0|293:1|294:50


so another $25-$50 for a controller card..

what else is needed? (cost wise)

a pot.. (few bucks).. wire, butt connectors or solder heat shrink..

and some helpful members?? =) LOL


----------



## wquiles (Jun 11, 2009)

The used motor listed should be OK for this application.

Of the controllers listed, the first one is not even close to being adequate (remember the input is 110V AC and the output is 90V DC). The second one might work well - but I don't know enough about this particular controller. The KB that I used was fully featured and allowed you to change the ramp-up, ramp-down speed, output power, etc.

You should use Google and study PWM and DC motor drive before buying anything. Better make sure you know what you are doing before you start wiring things up - 1HP and about 10Amps is nothing to take lightly 

Will


----------



## xl97 (Jun 11, 2009)

I understand PWM.. (more or less).. as I have wrote code/program for a custom microcontroller that had PWM support and made a PWM supported LED driver.. so I can pulse/ramp up/down the LED itself..

however that was an LED.. and I wasnt sure the same applied to motors..although I don see why it wouldnt..

I guess I'll get to reading.. and see what I see...

thanks


----------



## wquiles (Jun 11, 2009)

Awesome. Just concentrate on the driver/controller side of things. I really can't speak any higher about the KB controller I used - totally awesome, great documentation, etc.. Once you get the controller stuff down, you can then get a matching motor in the right voltage/HP range


----------



## xl97 (Jun 11, 2009)

I'll keep an eye out.. does KB make controllers for 110v?

I'll try and search around.. Thanks..

on aside note I finally ordered my QCTP today.. a AxA from LMS.. with a modified compound rest top..

doesnt need any specially machined tool holders is what they said...

but couldnt say 100% that 1/2" tools would center up with it..

but I figure I could use what Ive ordered..and then get a few modified tool holders from lathe master for any/all 1/2' tools?


thoughts?

</ derail > lol


----------



## wquiles (Jun 11, 2009)

xl97 said:


> I'll keep an eye out.. does KB make controllers for 110v?


Yes, they do, as well as the dual voltage units (like the one I got).





xl97 said:


> on aside note I finally ordered my QCTP today.. a AxA from LMS.. with a modified compound rest top..
> 
> doesnt need any specially machined tool holders is what they said...
> 
> ...


Don't worry about getting everything perfect on the initial set of tools. Getting the lathe was the easy and "cheap" part. The tooling part of the expenses will never end


----------



## precisionworks (Jun 12, 2009)

> Getting the lathe was the easy and "cheap" part. The tooling part of the expenses will never end


Actually the tooling expenses do end ... at the same time your heart stops beating :nana:


----------



## xl97 (Jun 12, 2009)

yeah, as with all hobbies.. the 'fun' never ends.. the more you learn the more you want to do... the more a project costs..LOL

once my tools come in...

its variable speed motor and scale mounting.. and Im done for a while.


----------



## xl97 (Jun 12, 2009)

noob alert:

being that Im electronics challenged..

Im assuming I should stay away from any motors that say 3 phase on them?

I have still been kicking around the idea of getting that used one..

but, it being used doesnt give me 100% piece of mind..

and you stated 'OK' in capitals.. as if saying..'meh'.. LOL

what about something from HF:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=2729
(maybe RPM not fast enough?)

or this/
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=2098
(2HP too much?)

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=4113
(maybe smaller footprint?)

found some used ones in my area..for $15 bucks! lol

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/ele/1212290984.html 


for a controller board, I found this:

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2669

thoughts?


thanks


----------



## wquiles (Jun 12, 2009)

The KB controller for a 90V DC motor is the right one, and it is good that it includes a power resistor since that is what sets the power level. Unfortunately the description does not say that power setting the resistor is for, so it might likely be too small - you will then need to buy the right value to match the HP of your motor.

We have been talking about a DC motor and DC controller, but every motor you showed is an AC motor, not the DC motor that we are talking about using for your project. Now, you can also implement the variable speed with a 3 Phase AC motor and a VFD controller, but you would typically need at least 220V AC input. The 3-PH/VFD is definitely a much nicer setup, but also more expensive - I would recommend that you stay with the 90V DC motor and 120V AC controller instead.


----------



## xl97 (Jun 12, 2009)

ahh...thanks I didnt even catch that.. (doh)

so controller good (if I had to buy a new one).. but possibly have to replace the resistor.. (shouldnt be that big of a deal to something like that though)..

I did read it said 350w motors....but nothing about HP..

still keeping my eye out for a cheap new motor.. one of these weeks..I'll find something on ebay.


----------



## xl97 (Jul 8, 2009)

hey wquiles-

I happened to be surfing the net for a motor/controller again today (havent re-visited this since last time I posted)

and I ran across this:

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1967

I was wondering if you could check it out..tell me what you think?

that link is for both the motor and controller

motor alone is this link:

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1803


but I cant seem to find anything on what HP is it?
Voltage Current: 90V DC & 0.4A
RPM's: 2000
Reversibility: Reversible

Im not sure what spindle shaft LENGTH should be..or what spindle shaft OD should be

and again..here is link to the controller alone:
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2669

it does say this though:
It is suitable for 90VDC motor up to 350W 

which I think i 'good'.. optional 115/230 (I need 115)

Item# KBIC-240DS - DRIVE, DC, 120/240VAC, 12A, CHASSIS, 1HP/12A W/HEATSINK, 0.5HP/6A W/O, HEATSINK, 90VDC ARM, E2, 9423 
KBIC Series Information


1/100~3 Horsepower
110 or 240 VAC Input
Non-Regenerative
Chassis (IP00) Type
UL, cUL Approvals

controller may be kinda pricey...compared to others/other places?

just cant seem to find a decent motor.. that isnt hundreds of dollars..

tried looking for a Baldor or Leeson 3/4 or 1HP 90v DC perm mag. motor..


----------



## wquiles (Jul 8, 2009)

The controller seems to be the right one for this 90V DC variable speed upgrade. Note that that is basically the same controller that I used, and that you will need to get the correct HP power resistor to match the intended/actual HP of the motor you will be using.

The motor is WAY too small for the job. You need something closer to a 1HP motor. Best to keep looking until you can find a suitable motor, rather than buying too small a motor and have to do it all over again with the "right" motor.


----------



## xl97 (Jul 8, 2009)

Thanks..

I figured the motor was no good.. as it was only listed brand new for about $45 bucks..

but I couldnt find any spec on the HP of the motor.

oh well...

I guess I'll keep my eyes open..and keep surfing ebay every now & again. 

if there a housing size that is best? also what about the spindle? threaded? keyed? size both length and OD?

thanks


----------



## gadget_lover (Jul 8, 2009)

Just remember, volts multiplied by amps = watts. 745 watts = 1 hp.

Yeah, there are other things that go into the equation, but that's good enough for ballpark work

A .45 amp motor at 90 volts is only 40 watts, or 1/20 hp. You will want one that draws about 8 amps at 90 volts.



Dan


----------



## wquiles (Jul 9, 2009)

xl97 said:


> if there a housing size that is best? also what about the spindle? threaded? keyed? size both length and OD?


There is no simple answer for that, since whatever you get you will have to "fit" it to your lathe, and you will likely need a new pulley anyway to fit the new motor (I was able to modify the old one to fit the new motor). The motor mount I was able to bent the old one, so I got lucky on both counts. You just have to basically get the motor and then figure out how to get it "in there". Sounds hard, but it should be fine


----------



## Alan B (Jul 12, 2009)

Hi folks. 

I've done the DC motor upgrade on my lathe, and love it, however - It is better to do the AC VFD route, and I wish I had done that instead. I'm wearing out my DC motor and will probably have to deal with replacing it which may not be easy.

Generally Speaking,

0) AC motors last longer, or are at least lower maintenance. No brushes to maintain.

1) The AC motors generally fit directly. The DC motors don't, and adapting them is a job. I would rather bolt-up the AC motor than make a makeshift adapter for the DC.

2) The AC motors are a lot lower in cost than the DC and a lot easier to find.

3) The AC motors are generally sealed, many of the DC motors are not.

4) The VFDs are available new and the prices are reasonable. A new VFD may cost more than a used DC controller, but a new DC controller and motor costs more than a new VFD setup. 

5) The VFD will have a lot more features than most DC controllers.

6) The VFDs are available in 120VAC up to about 1HP (controlling a 220V 3 phase motor). 

The only attraction to the DC setup is really the low cost of used stuff. I spent about $200 on my motor and controller, but a new VFD and new motor would only have been about $400 or so.

Whichever you decide, the variable speed setup is fantastic.


----------



## precisionworks (Jul 12, 2009)

I also like VFD's and am in the process of getting machine #4 changed over. After three conversions, here are my observations ...

Three phase AC motors, especially new or lightly used ones on eBay, are not expensive on a per hp basis. Avoid the open frame design (aka ODP, which means open drip proof). These are meant primarily for HVAC applications, not for machine tools. You want to look for TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) or TENV (totally enclosed non ventilated). FWIW, I have a 1.5 hp TENV Baldor listed on eBay, item 190319643793. TENV motors are the ultimate motor for use with a frequency drive, but TEFC does almost as well.

To properly size the new motor, you'll need 2x, 3x, or 4x the hp of the original motor. The reason is that hp and motor shaft speed are in direct proportion. 100% motor speed = 100% hp, 50% speed cuts the hp in half, 10% speed means you have only 1/10 of nameplate hp.

Frequency drives are available with an open enclosure (NEMA-1), or totally sealed (NEMA-4x). The totally sealed drive costs a little more but cannot be destroyed by a stray chip or splashed coolant.

IMO, the SMVector drive (made by ACTech) offers tremendous value for the money. All three of my SMVector drives were purchased from Wolf Automation:

http://www.wolfautomation.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=19500

http://www.wolfautomation.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=22376


----------



## xl97 (Jul 16, 2009)

thanks for the replies.. (electronics really arent my thing)..

but I see mention on 3-phase.. I only have 110 hook up in my garage..

how does this change most of the things mentioned here?

first Im really hearing about VFD

so you use an AC motor vs a DC motor.. correct?

and instead of a DC Controller board.. you use a 'VFD'?

do you still control the motor/speed the same way (pot tuning?)

Also to be clear.. I am VERY much just a hobby type guy..

I only have an 8x12/14 lathe..

I was 'thinking' that the the whole DC controller/motor path was going to be around $150+ or so.. $100 for nice used (new) motor on ebay ..and about another $50-60 for the DC controller..

as far a juts trying to get it to fit..getting a new pulley and motor mount.. 

I wasnt aware.. and certainly makes me leary on this upgrade now.. (not sure I can handle it or not..and would hate to waste the money)

does the 'VFD' approach have the same obstacles?

Thanks guys.


----------



## Alan B (Jul 16, 2009)

Variable Frequency Drive or VFD

generally uses a three phase 230 volt AC motor
and powers from 120 or 240 volts single phase
the controller makes three phase power for the motor

DC motor and controller

I spent $50 on a DC motor and $100 on a controller. Then I had to build adapters for the motor mounts and adapt the pulleys. It works but is not pretty. I had to mill out an aluminum plate and bore large holes to make the motor adapter.

Usually you can buy a 3 phase motor that will fit pulleys and bolt on to the lathe directly. There are three wires from motor to controller, and a line cord. If you want pot control the controller has a hookup for that, 3 more wires. Plus safety grounds.

This is not really an electrical project. It is potentially a mechanical project depending on how the motor fits the mounts and pulleys. The electrical part is hooking up a few wires according to diagrams. Not a big challenge electrically. Mechanically you may have to design and build adapters if things don't fit. And while you are doing it the lathe may be down, so you'll have to use other tools.


----------



## sortafast (Jul 16, 2009)




----------



## precisionworks (Jul 16, 2009)

> It is potentially a mechanical project


+1

90% of the time is spent adapting the new motor (adapter or transition plate, new pulleys, new guard, etc.). Wiring the motor & VFD are a snap.


----------

