# Pila IBC Charger Compendium



## Flashlight Aficionado (Jun 26, 2008)

Pila IBC™ 4-stage Charger

Charging process
Stage 1 – Automatic analyzing battery status
Stage 2 – Quick charge
Stage 3 – Slow charge
Stage 4 – Standby mode, trickle charge (Stats say this, but it does NOT trickle charge)

Specifications 
AC/DC adaptor power in : 100 to 240 VAC (50/60 Hz)
AC/DC adaptor power out : 6 VDC / 2.5 A
DC/DC adaptor power in : 12 to 24VDC
DC/DC adaptor power out : 6 VDC / 3 A
IBC Charger DC in : 6 VDC / 2-3 A
IBC Charger DC out : 4.2 VDC / 600mA (per bay)
Charging time : approximate 3 ½ hours (room temperature)	
Ambient temperatures : 0oC to 40oC (32oF to 104oF) for operation
-20oC to 60oC (-4oF to 140oF) for storage
Dimensions : Approx 95mm (L) x 55mm (W) x 48 mm (H)
Weight : Approx 130g (excluding adaptor and power cord).
Pila IBC Battery Charger includes 1 x AC/DC Adapter with US & EU pins (100 - 240 VAC, 50/60Hz auto-sensing), Carrying Bag.





















1. What size cells does it charge and what doesn't it charge?

RCR123, *10440, 14500, 14670, 16340, 17500, 17670, 18500, 14500 up to 18650. It can handle cells up through 18mm diameter at least and 65-68mm in length, so 18650 on the large end.

*Don't run 10440 cells below 3.8 volts resting. The Pila IBC has a maximum charge rate of 600 mA, and the 10440 cells are about 320 mAh, so approaching 2C on a fully empty cell, but if the cell is around half full, the voltage will quickly climb to 4.2 volts and then the current will quickly drop off. Don’t charge an empty (3.3 volts resting) 10440 cell with it, but if it is closer to half empty, it is pushing things, but still will be reasonably safe. The 10440 cell suffer a loss of cycle life by doing this, but that may be acceptable to some.

NEVER charge RCR2 or 10180.​
2. What spacers are needed for each cell?

65mm-68mm length cells require no spacers. 50mm length cells fit with the included Pila screw-in spacers. The Pila spacers are not stackable. i.e., you can not use both spacers to fit smaller cells.

Other lengths need more creativity. For instance, a RCR123 needs the Pila spacer plus a nut and bolt of approximately 34mm. A better idea is to buy a dummy cell of a slightly longer length(without the Pila spacer) than needed and file it down. This avoids the extra contact point and is more stable because of the flat top and bottom of the dummy cell.

* Keep in mind that any added resistance effects the charger. If the cell has a protection circuit, that adds resistance. Finally, the spacer can add to the resistance. So if you must use a spacer, make it one spacer not multiple. i.e. don't use the supplied Pila spacer with a magnet because the resistance builds up. Just use a single longer magnet or bolt...

The effect of having extra resistance in the charging circuit is that the cells end up with less of a charge. Which isn't necessarily bad. You get more battery life (more recharges) but less runtime per charge.​
3. What chemistries can be charged, and which never to charge?

Charges 3.7V Lithium Cobalt Ion {LiCoO2} (such as Pila, AW), LiNiCoO2 (AW's NNP cells) and Lithium Manganese Ion {LiMn2O4} (such as Emoli, Konion). 

AW's IMR cells - Lithium Manganese {LiMN} IMR cells have much lower internal resistance than regular Li-Ion 3.7V cells and they MAY end up with a higher ending voltage when charged. Please check the voltage of them right out of the charger to see if they are above 4.20V when fully charged with your charger. Overcharging above 4.25V may shorten life/cycles. Above 4.50V may even pop them or make them leak. DO NOT use the charger if it seems to overcharge IMR cells.

DO NOT charge Lithium Iron Phosphate {LiFeP04} (such as A123, Saphion)​
4. Overcharging protection?

Yes. Charge termination is 4.20V. It will not initiate a charge on an already charged cell, at 4.17V. The Pila IBC uses the correct CC-CV algorithm, and it terminates properly at 4.20V.​
5. It says "Trickle Charge", but doesn't. Please Explain why.

Technically, what happens is charging terminates when 4.20V is reached. Thereafter, there is voltage sensing and if it drops to 4.17 - 4.18V, it starts charging up to 4.20V again. It should not be called "Trickle Charging" since this was first designed and used in NiMH charging, and implies continuous, low voltage charging.​
6. Minimum voltage to initiate a charge?

It will start charging a cell that is at 1 volt.​
7. Overheat protection?

No.​
8. Can it be left plugged in? With cells?

You can leave the Pila IBC charger plugged in all the time with batteries, but Pila recommends you remove the batteries and unplug the charger once charging is complete. Because we are dealing with a possible “Vent with Flame” situation, CPF also recommends that you remove the batteries and unplug it when the batteries are fully charged.​
9. What voltages does it charge?

4.20 volts.​
10. What current does it charge?

600mA at least, the closer to 600mA the more you have to watch heat build up.

DO NOT use on cells bellow 600mA. Charging a lower capacity cell, especially if the cell has been over discharged, exceeds the recommended 1C maximum charging rate recommended by the cell manufacturers.​
11. Reverse polarity protection? Short circuit protection?

Yes in that it checks the cell to see if it is shorted.​
12. Is the top-off applied AFTER the charge status light turns green?

No. Also DO NOT press the _Reset Button_ to attempt to top off the charge on a cell.​
13. What is the Reset Button for?

It is for cells that the protection circuit that has been tripped. It makes the charger skip the safety checks. It is also for cells that have been drained, but not enough for the charger to recognize it as needing a charge.​
14. What do the lights mean?

No Batteries . . . Green on / Red fast blink
Charging . . . . . Greenoff / Red on
Full . . . . . . . . .Green on / Red off
Defective Cell . .Green on / Red fast blink​
15. Battery internal resistance tested prior to charging?

There is a check done on the cell, but I don't believe it has to do with the internal resistance of the cell. I think it is looking for a shorted cell.​
16. Can I use the Pila IBC Charger in my car?

To use the PILA in a car, you need a brick. Although the 12V adapter is shown in PILA sales pages, it DOES NOT come with the unit. Remember, there is a chance of venting with flame. So place it in a fire-proof container with tall sides.​

Using the Pila IBC Charger
Place the charger in a nonflammable location, in case of fire. Place one or two cell(s) in the charger bay(s) with the appropriate spacer if required, then give them a quarter turn to make better electrical contact. ** When the light turns green, remove the cells and unplug the charger.

**If you have a protected cell that you believe was tripped and the charger signals the cell as damaged, press the reset button.
Error Signal - Green light on and red light blinking.

Each of the two stations on this charger is independent of each other. So, yes you can charge two batteries in different states of charge or just one battery.

As a rule of thumb you should not charge Li-ions at more than 1C so you should avoid charging batteries with a capacity lower than 600ma in the Pila IBC.

*Useful Multimeter information for checking the voltage (how much fuel) is left in a Li-Ion cell.*
The figures below are resting voltages, where the Li-Ion cell has been resting (not under load) for ~15 minutes. The figures are approximate, but they are a good guide.
4.2 volts 100%
4.1 about 90%
4.0 about 80%
3.9 about 60%
3.8 about 40%
3.7 about 20%
3.6 empty for practical purposes
<3.5 = over-discharged

*Equation for to approximate time to fully charge.*

```
1.5 X ####mAh 
 -------------------- = #.## hours 
         ###ma
```

for example:

```
1.5 X 2900mAh 
 -------------------- = 7.25 hours 
         600ma
```


*NOTE: The order of the questions have been changed to put similar questions together or combine them when it was appropriate. The following posts that only refer to a # might not be an answer to the posted question above.


Thanks to Silverfox, DM51, Hitthespot and LuxLuthor whom I’ve outright stolen from to create this compendium and the many unsung others. :thumbsup:

Last edited November 1, 2010


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## Citivolus (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



Flashlight Aficionado said:


> 1. What batteries does it charge and what doesn't it charge?
> 
> 2. What chemistries are great, just O.K., and never use?
> 
> ...



To start you off:

1. Due to charge current, the smallest capacity you would probably want to charge is 750mAh (some say 600mAh), so a 16340 or 14500 is about the limit. It can handle cells up through 18mm diameter at least and 65-68mm in length, so 18650 on the large end.

To charge a 16340, you need a dummy 16340 so that it will make contact with the terminals. A 14500 fits with the included Pila spacers.

2/3. Charges ONLY 3.7V Li-ion. Charge termination is 4.20V.

4/5. Deferring for someone with real answers.
6. The recommended way to charge  I couldn't resist. I'm sure someone will have a more detailed answer for you.

7. Reverse polarity protection? Short circuit protection? Is the top-off applied AFTER the charge status light turns green? Battery internal resistance tested prior to charging? Minimum voltage to initiate a charge?

To partially answer my own last one on #7, it will not initiate a charge on an already charged battery, so if your charge finishes and the power cycles, it won't start charging again when power returns. I do not know the minimum voltage used for this.

Regards,
Eric


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## ukmike (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

The charger sounds great, certainly better than the ones I have already!

I contacted flashlightz.com earlier to get a quote for shipping to the UK but was told they only ship to the US. Does anyone know of a supplier that will ship to London UK? and turn :mecry:into:twothumbs preferably with not too high shipping cost?


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## DM51 (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



ukmike said:


> Does anyone know of a supplier that will ship to London UK?


BugOutGearUSA ship internationally.


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## mdocod (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

#6. YES, it should be fine, terminates like a cell phone or laptop, correctly, it should be able to remain plugged in with cells on it indefinitely without a problem. 

#7. 3.7V cells only, modern Lithium Cobalt Oxide designed for use with 4.20V termination. Do not use with really old li-ion cells as termination would need to be 4.10V, shouldn't be an issue as most cells that old are not around any more. 

not sure about the rest.


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## foxracer72 (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

few things i would like to know about this charger before i get it is, does it charge each cell independently, for instance can you put an almost depleted cell along with lets say an 80% cell. also what can you use as a dummy cell for using rcr123s and where do you get them, all the places i see that sell this charger dont even offer this option.........sorry im no help to this thred i just have more questions :thinking:


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## Hitthespot (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



foxracer72 said:


> few things i would like to know about this charger before i get it is, does it charge each cell independently, for instance can you put an almost depleted cell along with lets say an 80% cell. also what can you use as a dummy cell for using rcr123s and where do you get them, all the places i see that sell this charger dont even offer this option.........sorry im no help to this thred i just have more questions :thinking:


 
Each of the two stations on this charger are independent of each other. So, yes you can charge two batteries in different states of charge. The charger comes with spacers for charging rcr123 batteries.

I did a fairly extensive review on this charger with pictures which should come up if you do a search. 

For those who are curious my sample of the IBC charger charges my 14500's and rc123's pretty consistantly to 4.17v and has been a great performing charger so far.


Bill


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## Burgess (Jun 27, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

These are very good questions.

( and answers )


:thumbsup:



My concern would be:

Suppose you are charging a battery, and your electricity goes out (briefly).

Does the charger come right back on, by itself ?

And . . . .

Is that gonna' cause a problem ?


This has already happened to me, while charging NiMH's.

Don't wanna' tempt fate while charging Li-Ion cells.

:candle:
_


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## ukmike (Jun 27, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

Thanks DM51 for your help.:laughing:


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## lengendcpf (Jun 27, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

This charger looks tempting.

I don't mind paying a bit more for this. But only 1 thing hold me back. It cannot charge 10440.

Btw, any way to overcome this ?


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## SilverFox (Jun 27, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

Hello Flashlight Aficionado,

I can add a couple of answers...

4 and 12 are related. I don't know if it actually has a over discharged recovery segment, but it will start charging a cell that is at 1 volt.

6 is yes, but it is not recommended as a general practice.

7 seems a little confusing. I believe you intended to ask what current it uses, and that is 600 mA. If it is actually voltage, then it charges to 4.2 volts.

8 is yes.

9 is yes in that it checks the cell to see if it is shorted.

10 is no.

11, there is a check done on the cell, but I don't believe it has to do with the internal resistance of the cell. I think it is looking for a shorted cell.

I might also add that I charge 10440 cells with it all the time. However, I don't run my 10440 cells below 3.8 volts resting. The Pila has a maximum charge rate of 600 mA, and the 10440 cells are about 320 mAh, so I am approaching 2C on a fully empty cell, but if the cell is around half full, the voltage will quickly climb to 4.2 volts and then the current will quickly drop off. I would not charge an empty (3.3 volts resting) 10440 cell with it, but if it is closer to half empty, I think it is pushing things, but still reasonably safe. You may suffer a loss of cycle life by doing this, but that may be acceptable to some.

The only issue I have with this charger is that when charging 2 empty cells, the charger heats up and the cells get lukewarm. However, the positive aspects of this charger far outweigh this issue.

Tom


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## Hitthespot (Jun 27, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



SilverFox said:


> .
> 
> I might also add that I charge 10440 cells with it all the time. However, I don't run my 10440 cells below 3.8 volts resting. The Pila has a maximum charge rate of 600 mA, and the 10440 cells are about 320 mAh, so I am approaching 2C on a fully empty cell, but if the cell is around half full, the voltage will quickly climb to 4.2 volts and then the current will quickly drop off. I would not charge an empty (3.3 volts resting) 10440 cell with it, but if it is closer to half empty, I think it is pushing things, but still reasonably safe. You may suffer a loss of cycle life by doing this, but that may be acceptable to some.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting Tom. I would have thought that even if half full, the cell accepting 600ma even for short durations would shorten its cycle life to unacceptable levels, but maybe not? I'm definitely no expert on 10440 cells, or Li-on cells in general. I will say I top off my cells frequently. I will try the Pila charger when I do finally pick up some 10440 cells. I didn't buy any 10440 cells because I just didn't want to buy another charger. This may just save me the trouble.

Thanks Tom, your always a wealth of charge.

Bill


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## Flashlight Aficionado (Jun 28, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

O.K. guys, since things are petering out, I will do what I said I'll do tomorrow. If you have any last minute things to add, please do it now.

Do not send me links to CPF. I did a search and stole heavily. (I will give credit) Mostly Hitthespot, DM51 and Silverfox. DIRECT links to other sites will be appreciated. I will not search them like I did CPF.

Thank you.


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## Flashlight Aficionado (Jun 28, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

Very last bump. See post #13 above.


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## gazaati (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

guys, does it charge 18650?



AAA?\
AA?


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## lengendcpf (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



gazaati said:


> guys, does it charge 18650?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I think you must have missed out the first post..
:welcome:


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## WildChild (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

This charger is excellent. I got one to replace an UltraFire charger I had that killed batteries too fast. The only complain I have with it is that it's very sensitive to dirty contacts at the end of charge (added resistance). A microscopic move of the cell on the contact and the light will turn green, with the cell not being completely charged (often around 4.10V). But the reset button restart the charge and you will be able to restart it until the cells hit 4.17V, where the reset button won't work anymore (always giving green light).


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## lengendcpf (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



SilverFox said:


> I might also add that I charge 10440 cells with it all the time. However, I don't run my 10440 cells below 3.8 volts resting. The Pila has a maximum charge rate of 600 mA, and the 10440 cells are about 320 mAh, so I am approaching 2C on a fully empty cell, but if the cell is around half full, the voltage will quickly climb to 4.2 volts and then the current will quickly drop off. I would not charge an empty (3.3 volts resting) 10440 cell with it, but if it is closer to half empty, I think it is pushing things, but still reasonably safe. You may suffer a loss of cycle life by doing this, but that may be acceptable to some.
> 
> The only issue I have with this charger is that when charging 2 empty cells, the charger heats up and the cells get lukewarm. However, the positive aspects of this charger far outweigh this issue.
> 
> Tom


 

Using a 2C charge on 10440. Do you use a timer, set at 30 mins, afterwhich, you remove the 10440?

Also, do you use magnets or the included spacers?

I am very interested in this, if it can charge the 10440, 16340, 14500 and 18650..


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## Flashlight Aficionado (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



lengendcpf said:


> Using a 2C charge on 10440. Do you use a timer, set at 30 mins, afterwhich, you remove the 10440?


The light will turn green when charged. The Pila charger just can't handle overly discharged 10440. Do not charge a 10440 that is discharged below 3.8 volts resting.




> Also, do you use magnets or the included spacers?


Good question, anybody?




> I am very interested in this, if it can charge the 10440, 16340, 14500 and 18650..


Read the first post. :wave:


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## Flashlight Aficionado (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

WildChild - Just to be clear, you are talking about the Pila IBC?



WildChild said:


> The only complain I have with it is that it's very sensitive to dirty contacts at the end of charge (added resistance). A microscopic move of the cell on the contact and the light will turn green, with the cell not being completely charged (often around 4.10V). But the reset button restart the charge and you will be able to restart it until the cells hit 4.17V, where the reset button won't work anymore (always giving green light).


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## WildChild (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



Flashlight Aficionado said:


> WildChild - Just to be clear, you are talking about the Pila IBC?



Yes I am...


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## Flashlight Aficionado (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

Thanks, back to the editing room.


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## SilverFox (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

Hello Legendcpf,

I made up some of my own spacers using nuts and bolts.

Tom


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## SilverFox (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

Hello WildChild,

The proper procedure for inserting a cell into a holder (both for charging and for using) is to insert the cell, then turn it in place about 1/4 turn. This breaks up any oxidation at the contacts and minimizes resistance issues.

You still have to clean the battery contacts from time to time, but it goes a long way toward minimizing resistance problems.

Tom


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## Flashlight Aficionado (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



SilverFox said:


> I made up some of my own spacers using nuts and bolts.



Which battery sizes do you need to make spacers for? 

If not a pain to look up, can you say which bolt or bolt for which sized battery? Again, if too hard don't bother.


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## Flashlight Aficionado (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

Silverfox - Any answer for number 12 on the list? Minimum voltage to initiate a charge?

Thanks.


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## SilverFox (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

Hello Flashlight Aficionado,

Here is the spacer I use for R-CR123 charging...







this is used in combination with the supplied spacer that comes with the charger.

The one for 10440 cells is the same style, but is a little shorter and is used without the supplied spacer.

Tom


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## Flashlight Aficionado (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

It is done. :twothumbs Check out the first post.


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## WildChild (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



SilverFox said:


> Hello WildChild,
> 
> The proper procedure for inserting a cell into a holder (both for charging and for using) is to insert the cell, then turn it in place about 1/4 turn. This breaks up any oxidation at the contacts and minimizes resistance issues.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the hint!


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## Bones (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



SilverFox said:


> Hello Flashlight Aficionado,
> 
> Here is the spacer I use for R-CR123 charging...
> 
> ...



Thanks for the image SilverFox.

Is it reasonable to presume that the bolts are cut to length, and the nuts tightened down to ensure a good connection?

Also, I was browsing for a similar set-up a while ago, and found what I needed in solid brass, solid stainless steel and chrome plating.

Any thoughts on which would provide the best connection with minimal pressure?


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## SilverFox (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

Hello Bones,

Yes, my nut fits tightly on the bolt. I used brass. I don't know if it is the best, but I like brass, and it was available.

Tom


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## lengendcpf (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



SilverFox said:


> Hello Legendcpf,
> 
> I made up some of my own spacers using nuts and bolts.
> 
> Tom


 
Tom, you have answered my second question, but you have not tell me, how long you put the 10440 in the charger for charging..

Thanks..


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## cernobila (Jun 29, 2008)

Another option may be to use a AW CR123 dummy cell filed down a little for just the right overall length when combined with the RCR123 cell.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 30, 2008)

_* Stage 4 – Standby mode, trickle charge (Stats say this, but it does not trickle charge)*_
Technically, what happens is charging terminates when 4.2V is reached. Thereafter, there is voltage sensing and if it drops to 4.17 - 4.18V, it starts charging up to 4.2V again. It should not be called "Trickle Charging" since this was first designed and used in NiMH charging, and implies continuous, low voltage charging.

On your point #3, you may wish to give a little more specific information because you mentioned "chemistries." 

There are various types of Lithium Ion battery chemistries. It works on typical (Pila, AW) Lithium *Cobalt *Ion, and also the new safe chemistry Lithium *Manganese* Ion (Emoli, Konion) that are made in 18650 size. 

It does *not *work on the Lithium Iron Phosphate (A123, Saphion, etc.) Ion which is also in 18650 size, but have the 3.0 to 3.3V range.


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## SilverFox (Jun 30, 2008)

Hello Legendcpf,

I believe Flashlight Aficionado answered your question.

Basically, I charge until the green light indicates that the charge is complete. I also happen to set a back up timer to remind me that I have cell charging, but I don't use this as the primary charge termination. It is just a back up reminder.

I set that timer for (1.5 * capacity of the cell)/ charge rate.

Tom


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## kurni (Jun 30, 2008)

Hi Tom,

Thank you very much for the info, I learned a lot.

I cannot determine from the pictures if it will charge AW's 14670 without nipple. It's not a dealbreaker, I just want to know if I should purchase a magnet.

Thanks again,
Kurni


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## Edwood (Jun 30, 2008)

Nice consolidated thread. Perhaps this one can be a sticky?

I'd recommend adding info about making an adapter for charging AW "C" sized Li-Ion cells as well.

-Ed


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## cernobila (Jun 30, 2008)

kurni said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Thank you very much for the info, I learned a lot.
> 
> ...



Should be ok, it has "raised" plus terminals, don't need magnets.


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## lengendcpf (Jun 30, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Legendcpf,
> 
> I believe Flashlight Aficionado answered your question.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Tom..


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## cernobila (Jun 30, 2008)

Edwood said:


> Nice consolidated thread. Perhaps this one can be a sticky?
> 
> I'd recommend adding info about making an adapter for charging AW "C" sized Li-Ion cells as well.
> 
> -Ed



You mean something like this?


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## kurni (Jul 1, 2008)

cernobila said:


> Should be ok, it has "raised" plus terminals, don't need magnets.



Thanks cernobila, I just bought from flashlightz.



cernobila said:


> You mean something like this?



That gives me an idea; what if I have 2x14670 holder in paralel for each bay, so that I can charge 4x14670 at the same time? I understand the voltage-difference risk, but these 4x14670 will be used at the same time in a FM holder so significant out-of-balance would be unlikely. Would it be safe?

Thanks in advance,
Kurni


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## cernobila (Jul 1, 2008)

kurni said:


> Thanks cernobila, I just bought from flashlightz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No good, only charges two cells at a time.


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## VanIsleDSM (Jul 1, 2008)

Not a bad charger.

Still missing some key safety features though.

It should be 5 stage, after qualification there should be a trickle charge to bring deeply depleted cells to ~2.9V before hitting them with 600mA. Charging a smaller cell @ 600mA that was only @ 1V would be quite hazardous.. and create a lot of heat in a linear charger.

Secondly there should be continuous temp monitoring for each cell with automatic shutdown.

And finally, the charge current should be adjustable to safely charge smaller cells.


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## SilverFox (Jul 1, 2008)

Hello VanIsleDSM,

While it does have some drawbacks, the Pila IBC charger is about the best "off the shelf" cheap charger available. 

It is actually designed to charge Pila cells, which are protected against over discharge. If one were to only used protected cells with it, there would be no concern with over discharged cells.

I think a Li-Ion charger should reject a cell that is under 2.75 volts and not bother with trying to revive it at all. However, I seem to be in the minority with that opinion. Most cells can be revived from being discharged to a lower voltage, so perhaps my opinion is conservative.

You do bring up a valid point. I addressed this in a earlier post, but it should be repeated. The smallest capacity cell that should be charged on the Pila charger is one that has at least 600 mAh of capacity. Charging a smaller cell, especially if the cell has been over discharged, exceeds the recommended 1C maximum charging rate recommended by the cell manufacturers.

The idea of heat monitoring while charging Li-Ion cells is interesting. Unfortunately, heat is not a usual byproduct of charging this chemistry. When thermal runaway begins, it usually progresses very rapidly and I am not sure you would pick it up in time to prevent it.

I don't think it is a bad idea to incorporate heat monitoring, I just am not sure how beneficial it actually is.

Overall, with its universal voltage compatibility, and a step down adapter to enable powering it from 12 volts DC, it is very attractive. I agree that it would be nice if it had multiple charge rates, but it does a pretty good job just the way it is.

Tom


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## VanIsleDSM (Jul 2, 2008)

The heat monitoring validity is an interesting issue.

I can't say how useful it is, only that almost every single med-high quality Li-Ion charging IC has an option for temperature monitoring. I assume, because of that, that it is useful, but I would love to see some data or an experiment.

If you look at your cell phone Li-Ion battery there is a connection for temp monitoring, I also see one on my digital camera battery.

I know the charging chemistry barely heats as charged, but what about when overcharging begins? say if a 3.0 Li-Ion was accidentally being charged.. would it start to heat during overcharge? I imagine so.. and if you keep charging it.. well.. I imagine there would be some nastiness, however if the temp cut-off kicked in at the first sign of too much heat, you could save an ugly situation.

Is there a demonstration of what happens to a 3.0V cell in a 3.7V charger? or non-rechargables? I'm going to try these experiments in the charger I'm building to see what happens (In a large field with a fire extinguisher) If everything survives with the temp shutdown saving the day, then if I'm feeling destructive I may disable the temp monitoring to see the difference.


----------



## cernobila (Jul 2, 2008)

Well, just pulled the trigger and bought another unit from "flashlightz" complete with the DC/DC unit. Took advantage of the fact that I am here in the US and dont have to worry about international postage. Now I will have one at home and one in my camping "kit".


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## kurni (Jul 2, 2008)

cernobila said:


> No good, only charges two cells at a time.



Why can't I paralel 2 LiIon in 1 of the bay?

Thanks,
Kurni


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 3, 2008)

kurni said:


> Why can't I paralel 2 LiIon in 1 of the bay?
> 
> Thanks,
> Kurni



If you can setup wires, you should be able to.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 3, 2008)

VanIsleDSM said:


> Is there a demonstration of what happens to a 3.0V cell in a 3.7V charger? or non-rechargables? I'm going to try these experiments in the charger I'm building to see what happens (In a large field with a fire extinguisher) If everything survives with the temp shutdown saving the day, then if I'm feeling destructive I may disable the temp monitoring to see the difference.



Many of the RC guys have pushed the crap out of the A123 cells, including overcharging which seems to have a main downside of reducing cell life (# of cycles) which is in one of the links in this post. 

I think it is this one.

There is also a simple adapter "Dapter" ($40) which lets you use almost any Li-Ion charger with the 3.0V nominal A123 cells.


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## cernobila (Jul 3, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> If you can setup wires, you should be able to.



Lux, I didnt think you could charge four cells at a time with this charger, what would be the advantages and disadvantages of doing this.


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## Mr Happy (Jul 3, 2008)

One advantage I could see with charging two cells in parallel in one slot is that it would halve the charging current per cell. Therefore if you have small cells like the 10440, you might feasibly charge them in pairs without exceeding the 1C safety limit.

The disadvantages of that would be that each cell in the pair would need to start out at approximately the same state of discharge (that is, equal starting voltages), and that good, secure, low resistance electrical connections would need to be achieved between the charger and each cell.


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## DM51 (Jul 3, 2008)

If you had (say) 4x 17670 to charge, you could either do them 2 at a time, or you could parallel them in pairs and do all 4 at once, with 2 wired to each bay.

Before paralleling them, you would need to check that the cells in each pair were at similar voltages, or you would get a rapid current surge on connecting them. 

The disadvantage would be that charging would take longer, as only half the normal current would be going to each cell. You would not gain any time. 

However, this would be a very good way to charge small-capacity cells such as 10440s, as they require a lower current.

Edit: I see Mr Happy has already said this - apologies.


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## kurni (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks Happy, DM51. I'm planning to charge 4 at a time because I'm going to use FM 4x14670 holder. I'll assume that all cells would be used at similar fashion. I'm not trying to gain any time, I just don't want to replace the batteries as I'll always need to charge 4 at a time.

Many thanks,
Kurni


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## adamlau (Jul 3, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



SilverFox said:


> Yes, my nut fits tightly on the bolt. I used brass. I don't know if it is the best, but I like brass, and it was available.


Odd, funny and somewnat confusing if you fail to review the previous comments first  .


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## Edwood (Jul 3, 2008)

cernobila said:


> You mean something like this?
> 
> http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08271/p4195721162.jpg



Yup.



-Ed


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 3, 2008)

cernobila said:


> Lux, I didnt think you could charge four cells at a time with this charger, what would be the advantages and disadvantages of doing this.



As the others have said. Remember that it is no problem putting Li-Ion cells in parallel (as long as their starting voltages are not far apart)...then to the charger, it appears as a single cell with larger storage capacity.

(You cannot parallel charge NiMH cells.)


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## Burgess (Jul 3, 2008)

to AdamLau (Post # 54) --


:lolsign::devil:
_


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## SilverFox (Jul 4, 2008)

Hello VanIsleDSM,

I just had another thought about the temperature monitoring...

I confess that I have not reviewed the circuit to see if this is how it works, so this will have to be checked out to see if it is valid.

There can be a safety issue if you start charging a cell that is hot from an extremely hard discharge. Perhaps the temperature monitor will limit or prevent the charge to begin until the cell cools off.

In a battery pack you may not notice a "hot" cell, so the temperature monitoring is important. However, when charging single cells for flashlight use, it would be difficult not to notice a "hot" cell.

Tom


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## SilverFox (Jul 4, 2008)

Hello Adamlau,



Tom


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## cy (Jul 6, 2008)

just found this most excellent thread!!! :thumbsup:


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## varuscelli (Jul 8, 2008)

cernobila said:


> Another option may be to use a AW CR123 dummy cell filed down a little for just the right overall length when combined with the RCR123 cell.


 
OK, to help me make sure I'm clear on the concept...

For using the Pila IBC to charge a couple of the VA Protected R123A (750 mAH) batteries, would using the slightly filed down dummy cells from AW likely be the best way to go?

I just ordered a Pila charger and am in the process of ordering a few 18650 and R123A batteries from AW, so if I'm trying to figure out if I should order a couple of the dummy cells for R123A charging (or perhaps use the nut and bolt method as shown earlier in the thread). 

Thanks for any advice on that!


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## pobox1475 (Jul 8, 2008)

> after qualification there should be a trickle charge to bring deeply depleted cells to ~2.9V before hitting them with 600mA


 At what low voltage do the protected AW cells cut off at in use?


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## Bones (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*



SilverFox said:


> Hello Bones,
> 
> Yes, my nut fits tightly on the bolt. I used brass. I don't know if it is the best, but I like brass, and it was available.
> 
> Tom



Thanks SilverFox, I think I will go with brass as well.

That will make the spacer the softest metal in the equation, consequently absorbing most of the wear.

I will also make sure my brass nuts fit tightly, although it has been my experience they are self-tightening in the winter months ...


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## Ecodelosandes (Dec 7, 2008)

Hi CPF People! :wave:

As you see, I'm a beginner here. I've been searching and learning a lot in the forum, i think it's first class! As many of you, coming from the old Mag-lite era, and since a year or so on the led times, using a Fenix L2D (Q5), that gave me only satisfactions to date. I've ordered an Olight M20 R2 and some batts (cr123, rcr123 prot, 18650 prot), from batteryjunction (they even take the time to check the die aligment problem often seen on this model previous to send it to here, Argentina), and a PILA SBC from BugOutGear (BTW: what a service and fast delivery!), that's already in home (now waiting for the light & batts ) . Reading the post so far on this charger and others by the way i have a question relative to the over-discharge theme on li-ions: if a correctly discharged batt, lets say a good protected one, is left stored for some time uncharged, is there risk to enter on the over discharge fields (and ruin the unit or make it risky to recharge)? If yes, how much time is too much? Thank you all, and please be kind on my english


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## etc (Dec 7, 2008)

I have this charger, I use it to charge 2xP18500 cells from AW. 

Charges them to 4.2V.


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## Burgess (Dec 7, 2008)

Hello Ecodelosandes --


Welcome to CandlePowerForums !


:welcome:



To answer yer' question . . . .


I understand the self-discharge rate of healthy Lithium-Ion cells

is *very low*, and shouldn't pose any problem is this regard.



Purchased an Olight M20 Warrior R2 myself, and am very pleased with it.

:thumbsup:


And, like you, i also went with a Pila IBC charger, too.

:thumbsup:



Please let us know what you think, when your M20 arrives.



Good Luck with your new Flashlights.


_


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## Ecodelosandes (Dec 7, 2008)

Thank you Burgess! I'll report back my experience with the Warrior..... as soon as it come home, I presume two weeks or so


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## Justin Case (Dec 16, 2008)

The Pila charger I recently bought from Flashlightz has charged some of my AW Li-ion cells beyond 4.20V. Most recently (as in, right now), I pulled off an AW protected 17670 cell at 4.22V. Now I suppose it could be that my meter is inaccurate. It is a Mastech 8229.


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## cernobila (Dec 16, 2008)

Justin Case said:


> The Pila charger I recently bought from Flashlightz has charged some of my AW Li-ion cells beyond 4.20V. Most recently (as in, right now), I pulled off an AW protected 17670 cell at 4.22V. Now I suppose it could be that my meter is inaccurate. It is a Mastech 8229.



If you are concerned, it may be a good idea to compare few meters just to be sure, then the age/condition of the cells and how they compare to each other, eliminate all question marks first.


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## Justin Case (Dec 17, 2008)

All good ideas. But comparing multiple meters is not realistic since I don't have access to multiple meters, especially for any sort of extended monitoring that might stretch over weeks.

I bought the cells (AW protected, with his latest version black label with the "+ Power" logo on them) very recently. They all charge up easily, don't get hot, and hold their voltage.

Another, more minor issue with the Pila, is that the the CPF review of the charger states that charging won't initiate on a cell that measures 4.17V. Well, I've put in cells that measured 4.12V and the charger didn't initiate charging until I pressed the reset button. If the Pila doesn't sense that voltage correctly, it doesn't give me much comfort that it is measuring the termination voltage correctly either.

The bottom line for me is that this relatively expensive Pila charger so far seems no better than an inexpensive Ultrafire charger. IMO, the Pila is an unimpressive product. I personally would not recommend it to a friend.


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## cernobila (Dec 17, 2008)

Justin Case, what part of the world you from.......I have some contact details for Pila USA if it would be of any help. I know that sometimes frustration and disappointment leads to hasty conclusions.......I am sure that it wont take long to compare your meter with another.....if this would be my concern, I would take my charged cell and my meter and go to a friend or a store that sells these things and do a direct comparison. If they would read very close or the same I would then contact Pila for some advice.


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## Justin Case (Dec 17, 2008)

I appreciate your advice, but let me be clear. My conclusions are not "hasty", nor based on "frustration" or "disappointment". Read my post. I presented observed facts where the Pila has come up short. I've checked the health of my cells. I've observed resting voltage exceeding 4.20V multiple times. If I were "hasty", I would have posted a complaint the very first time I saw >4.20V. I did not.


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## pobox1475 (Dec 17, 2008)

OK, now I'm concerned. I am planning on a new charger real soon. *Is* or *is not* the the Pila IBC the best choice of currently available Li-Ion protected cell chargers?

v Makes sense to me. Thanks crofty...


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## crofty (Dec 17, 2008)

Justin Case, For all you know, your meter is inacurate. So untill you`ve tried another meter you can`t be sure where the blame lies. Lend or buy another meter, a $5 will sufice. It`s handy to have two meters lying around anyway.

pobox1475, don`t let one persons unconfirmed claim put you of the Pila IBC. I and thousands of others enjoy it`s top notch quality and reliability everyday and have done so for a long time.


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## Justin Case (Dec 17, 2008)

Crofty, thank you for the advice, but it is redundant as I already wrote in my original post, "Now I suppose it could be that my meter is inaccurate."

A salient point, however, is that if my meter is off, it is off by more than 0.01V since the max charge initiation voltage is claimed to be 4.17V but I measured cells at 4.12V that didn't charge until I pressed the reset button.

Since I am measuring consistent readings for other things like NiMH and fresh primary lithium voltages and tailcap current draws, I doubt that the meter is off by 0.05V.

Further, buying a cheap $5 meter would hardly constitute any sort of reliable confirmation or refutation since the accuracy of such a meter would also be completely unknown. Sadly, I am disinclined to spend the money on a Fluke.


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## pobox1475 (Dec 17, 2008)

There is the possibility that if the meter is inaccurate it could be inaccurate to varying degrees. It's not tool late to contact :santa: as long as you've been good :laughing:...


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## crofty (Dec 17, 2008)

Justin Case, I reiterated because even though you admit it yourself you still prefer to jump to conclutions.

Untill you`ve ruled the meter out, by using another, you can never know for sure. Like cernobila said "eliminate all question marks"

A dodgy meter is more than capable of operating normaly one day and malfunctioning the next.

Cheap meters have been proven accurate enough for this task, a fluke would be ideal but it`s not absolutely necessairy.

You`d have to be extremely unlucky for 2 cheap meters to be inacurate, so if it makes you feel bettter buy/lend two of them.

Another question mark to eliminate is the batteries in your meter, make sure their fresh.


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## BargainMonkey (Dec 17, 2008)

I just got an IBC this week so it hasn't been used too much. I've charged up AW's 16340's, 17500's, and 17670's. They were all at 4.19 or 4.20 off the charger. So far very happy with it.


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## Justin Case (Dec 17, 2008)

Crofty, I have not jumped to any conclusions. I have carefully caveated my findings. Further, they are restricted only to my single data point. I have not claimed that any other Pila chargers suffer from the same performance issues. But I personally would not recommend them, since my charger does not appear to perform as expected.

IMO, it is you who are jumping to conclusions. On what data do you base your statement that cheap meters are sufficient for a voltage measurement confirmation? If only DMM calibration were that easy. On what data do you base your statement that "You`d have to be extremely unlucky for 2 cheap meters to be inacurate (sic)." Can you tell me what the confidence level might be if I checked my DMMs voltage reading with two other DMMs vice just one other? That might help me "feel better".

As for "thousands of others" enjoying "it`s (sic) top notch quality and reliability everyday and have done so for a long time", I have not been in touch with these thousands of Pila owners. If you could provide some data on their terminating voltage measurements so that I can get an idea on the statistical scatter, I would appreciate it.


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## cernobila (Dec 17, 2008)

Justin Case,......a couple of points. If you are in this hobby and use rechargeable cells then a good quality industry standard meter is a must. (I don't know anything about yours) Also put some energy into contacting the main importer/distributor of Pila in your area and talk to them about your situation, better than email, you never know you may get a replacement unit......I guess that I have been lucky like most here, my two Pila chargers charge to about 4.16 to 4.18 on normal charge, perfect for LED lights and life of the cells. If I want to use the cell/s for one of my Incan lights I push the reset button and the cells come out 4.19 to 4.20, never over this......yes I am one of those here that will not use any other.


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## Ecodelosandes (Dec 17, 2008)

Justin Case said:


> All good ideas. But comparing multiple meters is not realistic since I don't have access to multiple meters, especially for any sort of extended monitoring that might stretch over weeks.
> 
> I bought the cells (AW protected, with his latest version black label with the "+ Power" logo on them) very recently. They all charge up easily, don't get hot, and hold their voltage.
> 
> ...


Just, please let me add an observation, IMO don't think this is an "issue" of the charger's electronic tacking faulty readings, but a design's characteristic. You must set a period of voltage wich the system consider not necesary to trigger a new recharge cycle, if you don't set anything like this at all, you get practically a trikle charge, wich we know are absolutely dangerous with LiOn's.


----------



## Justin Case (Dec 17, 2008)

Ecodelosandes said:


> Just, please let me add an observation, IMO don't think this is an "issue" of the charger's electronic tacking faulty readings, but a design's characteristic. You must set a period of voltage wich the system consider not necesary to trigger a new recharge cycle, if you don't set anything like this at all, you get practically a trikle charge, wich we know are absolutely dangerous with LiOn's.



The point is that the CPF FAQ on the Pila charger suggests that this "period of voltage" is 4.17V, above which charging does not occur because the cell is considered fully charged. The "issue" is that a cell which I measured at 4.12V appears to fall into this so-called "period of voltage" as you term it. If the charger believes that 4.12V is 4.17V, what other voltages is it also apparently misreading? You would hope that the 4.20V termination voltage isn't one of them.

Absent any additional information, I can't depend on this charger any more than the inexpensive ones that also apparently don't terminate at 4.20V. That's my basic tenet of being conservative with Li-ion safety.

In the meantime, I am trying to borrow a Fluke for a comparison measurement of voltages.


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## Justin Case (Dec 17, 2008)

cernobila said:


> Justin Case,......a couple of points. If you are in this hobby and use rechargeable cells then a good quality industry standard meter is a must. (I don't know anything about yours) Also put some energy into contacting the main importer/distributor of Pila in your area and talk to them about your situation, better than email, you never know you may get a replacement unit......I guess that I have been lucky like most here, my two Pila chargers charge to about 4.16 to 4.18 on normal charge, perfect for LED lights and life of the cells. If I want to use the cell/s for one of my Incan lights I push the reset button and the cells come out 4.19 to 4.20, never over this......yes I am one of those here that will not use any other.



Crofty seems to think a $5 meter suffices. You want me to buy an unspecified "industry standard" meter. Which is...?

Can we please stop with the unsolicited advice.


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## cernobila (Dec 17, 2008)

Justin Case said:


> Crofty seems to think a $5 meter suffices. You want me to buy an unspecified "industry standard" meter. Which is...?
> 
> Can we please stop with the unsolicited advice.



I may not have been clear in what I meant by "industry standard". I meant a meter that is used by tradesmen that rely and trust their equipment to make a living and do a competent and reliable job. The meter I use has been recommended by a couple of electricians that work in the health industry.......btw, have you contacted Pila directly, maybe this would be the best way to go......


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## crofty (Dec 18, 2008)

Justin Case said:


> I have not jumped to any conclusions.


I beg to differ...


Justin Case said:


> But I personally would not recommend them, since my charger does not appear to perform as expected.


You are jumping to the conclusion that the charger is at fault, when it could be the meter. 


Justin Case said:


> On what data do you base your statement that cheap meters are sufficient for a voltage measurement confirmation?


https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2602899&postcount=19

My Pila IBC charges AW RCR123`s to 4.17v every time and will only go to 4.18v after pressing the button.


I think you need to follow the advise given:

A) Try a differant meter, a cheap one _will_ do.
B) Contact Pila. I bought mine directly from pila and they are very helpfull.


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## Justin Case (Dec 18, 2008)

One last time. I have CAREFULLY CAVEATED my statements. I did not state conclusively that my Pila is defective. If you think I have, then quote the passage. In fact the part you quoted above says "my charger does not appear to perform as expected". The key phrase is "does not appear". I have not "jumped" to any definitive conclusion that my Pila is faulty. I am saying that it *appears* to have a problem based on FACTUAL, OBSERVED DATA. I have also caveated that with the clear statement that of course the meter accuracy is a confounding variable. Please STOP trying to convince me that your opinion is correct, while my own thoughts are incorrect. 

Please provide your hard data that says using a "cheap" meter "will do". How many different meter comparisons do I need to make to get to the 95% confidence level?

Do you have the data on the "thousands of other" Pila customers that you referenced previously? That probably will help to establish measurement standard deviation.

What meter are you using? What is your meter's accuracy spec? What steps have you done to verify that your meter reads accurately to at least two decimal places? Otherwise, your claims that your Pila terminates its charge below 4.20V are just as unconfirmed.


----------



## chewy78 (Dec 18, 2008)

n\a deleted


----------



## chewy78 (Dec 18, 2008)

deleted


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## chewy78 (Dec 18, 2008)

deleted


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## Justin Case (Dec 18, 2008)

chewy78 said:


> I have just finished topping off my pair of WOLF EYES LRB-168a's (18650 2200mah) and I measured 4.17 volts on both of them. I am using a sears craftsmen auto ranging multimeter item# 03482139000 model # 82139 which takes aa batteries.That model goes for like $29.99. I also have one of those cheap ones from gb electric that the reading kept fluctuating and those kind take 9 volt batteries to power up and it still did that with a fresh 9 volt battery in it.
> 
> Bottom line, get a decent quality mm. Not a cheap a** one!


 
What procedure have you done to determine that your Sears DMM is a "decent quality mm"? Is your DMM made in China? Is your DMM calibrated? The specs on your unit state +/-1% + 2 digits (not quite sure what the "+2 digits" means exactly) at 4V. So 4.17V could be 4.21V (applying just the +1% spec) and still be within spec.


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## DM51 (Dec 18, 2008)

Justin Case... your truculent and rude posts are becoming tiresome. If all you can do is be rude to people who are trying to help you, one cannot help but wonder why you are visiting this forum. Your post #86 above is notably unpleasant and belligerent. Please edit it to remove the offensive material. Please also adopt a less confrontational tone with other members.


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## pobox1475 (Dec 18, 2008)

> The meter I use has been recommended by a couple of electricians


 My 30 year old Radio Shack meter seems to
be accurate and function well. I would be interested in knowing 
what model you are referring to? I'm probably due for a new meter.


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## SilverFox (Dec 18, 2008)

Hello Justin Case,

The "official" specification for charging Li-Ion cells calls for charging to 4.2 volts plus or minus 0.05 volts. According to this, your charger is within specifications.

A lot of us prefer chargers that limit the charge of Li-Ion cells to a maximum of 4.200 volts in the hopes of getting a few more cycles and longer life from our cells. When Li-Ion cells have several cycles on them, their internal resistance increases, and they will end up charging to a lower voltage.

The Pila IBC charger is preferred because it follows the proper Li-Ion charging algorithm. It charges at a constant current until 4.2 volts is reached on the cell, then it tapers the current off while holding this constant voltage. At the end of the charge, it shuts off and does not try to trickle charge the cell to a higher voltage. Other chargers try to charge using different algorithms and the general result is a reduced cycle life from your cells.

It appears that there is some confusion over the function of the reset button. 

Sometimes a protected Li-Ion cell will "hard trip" the protection circuit upon over discharge. The original Pila chargers charged at 1.5 amps and this current allowed the protection circuit to easily reset and then the cell could be charged. Unfortunately, this charge rate is too high for some of the Li-Ion cells, and the original Pila chargers terminated by tripping the over charge protection circuit. With the introduction of the IBC charger, the charge rate was reduced, the algorithm was changed, but some of the cells that were "hard tripped" would not reset simply by putting the cell into the charger.

The Pila IBC charger does some initial testing of the cell to see if it can safely be charged. This testing involves some limited current attempts to reset the protection circuit. If the protection circuit does not reset, the cell is tagged as bad and no further charging is done on it.

The reset button allows a bypass of the cell tests and hits the cell with the full current charge. Usually, this will reset the protection circuit and then the cell is subjected to the testing and the charging current is ramped up to charge the cell.

Any statement that says that the reset button will top off a cell at a certain voltage is not correct, and this is not the proper use of the reset button. Using it this way simply applies a 600 mA charge for a short period of time and then the charger has to determine the end of charge based on the algorithm used within the charger. Anyone who is using the reset button to top off the cell after charging is misusing this charger and will have to live with the consequences of their actions.

Similar results can be obtained by removing the cell and starting the charging process again with a fully charged cell.

A cell that ends up fully charged at a voltage less than 4.2 volts is simply suffering from increased internal resistance which is the normal aging process. Adding a top off charge to these cells may actually increase their normal aging and end up greatly reducing the cycle life of the cells.

I haven't checked this out, but it would be interesting to charge a cell up, remove it after the green light comes on, then check the resting voltage around 2 hours later. Make a note of this voltage. Now, put the cell back in the charger and when the charge has completed, hit the reset button in an effort to top the cell off. When that is completed, pull the cell and once again measure the voltage after about a 2 hour rest.

Theoretically, the cell should settle down to about the same voltage either way it is charged. If this actually works out to be true, then it would be apparent that the top off charge did not do anything but increase the amount of time spent at full charge which will further oxidize the electrolyte within the cell and lead to further cell degradation.

Unfortunately, I don't have any marginal Li-Ion cells, so I am not able to actually check this out. My cells come off the Pila IBC at 4.195 - 4.200 volts. Unlike you, I have never had a cell come off greater than 4.200 volts based on the readings from three different Fluke voltmeters.

Tom


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## shuter (Dec 19, 2008)

I want to thank Silverfox, DM51 and others for providing clear, concise, explanitory information about the IBC charger and charging Li-Ion batteries in general. A special thanks to Flashlight Aficionado for pulling the information together and presenting it in this format. 

For those of us who are trying to get acquainted with the various aspects of lights, batteries, battery care, led's, modding and more it is frequently difficult to sort through the many threads and hundreds of posts for the difinitive information we seek.

Bravo!


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## crofty (Dec 19, 2008)

Thanks for the info SilverFox, it seems I have misunderstood the reset button.



SilverFox said:


> Anyone who is using the reset button to top off the cell after charging is misusing this charger and will have to live with the consequences of their actions.


Guilty! Mostly I don`t bother doing this but have done it a few times. What are the consequences? Accelerated degradation, fire?



SilverFox said:


> A cell that ends up fully charged at a voltage less than 4.2 volts is simply suffering from increased internal resistance which is the normal aging process. Adding a top off charge to these cells may actually increase their normal aging and end up greatly reducing the cycle life of the cells.


My cells are 5 months old AW RCR123`s and have never gone to the full 4.2v. I didn`t get them directly from AW so I suppose it`s possible they have been sitting around for a while but I`m not sure if this would cause them to age?



SilverFox said:


> I haven't checked this out, but it would be interesting to charge a cell up, remove it after the green light comes on, then check the resting voltage around 2 hours later. Make a note of this voltage. Now, put the cell back in the charger and when the charge has completed, hit the reset button in an effort to top the cell off. When that is completed, pull the cell and once again measure the voltage after about a 2 hour rest.


I could try this if you consider my cells to be a good candidate.


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## Ecodelosandes (Dec 19, 2008)

Tom, simply AWESOME!


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## SilverFox (Dec 19, 2008)

Hello Crofty,

If you are willing to "suffer the consequences," :devil: give it a go and report back here.

I have not tested that mode of operation, so I don't know what all the consequences would be. I think that you may be able to drive the voltage of the cell up a little, which would lead to cell degradation, but I don't think you could drive it up high enough to start a fire. At least not with normal healthy cells.

Tom


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## Justin Case (Dec 20, 2008)

Ok, I see my Pila is within spec. I guess I must've missed that spec, which doesn't seem all that great since 4.25V isn't a good terminating voltage for Li-ions, as I understand it.

I also measured 4.22V for a cell charged on the Pila a couple of weeks ago. I thought it was a quirk or something, but it was surprising enough that I made a mental note of it.

I've made probably a hundred measurements on my various Li-ions charged in a WF-138 and they always have come off at 4.19V or 4.20V (only the Pila has given me "full" charges above 4.20V, and this has occurred multiple times). Let's assume that the WF-138 full charge average voltage is exactly 4.20V.

The stated accuracy for my meter is +/-0.7% + 2 digits. Far from a Fluke, but better than the Sears DMM recently suggested, and probably any of the cheapo meters. If I assume that the extremes of this accuracy spec are at +/- 3 sigma (I would think it would not be just 1 sigma, otherwise too many of the company's meters would fail the accuracy spec and get returned, but all of this is just a guess).

Thus, with the above assumed measurement standard deviation, for 100 measurements I get a 95% confidence limit of +/-0.002, or 4.198-4.2002V for my assumed mean of 4.2V.

Regarding the reset button, I've pulled cells off the charger while still charging (red light was on) to check their voltage (I try to charge to ~4.1V now). Then I put them back on the charger. All I know is that the CPF FAQ says that the charger considers 4.17V to be a fully charged cell and doesn't charge them. But I've pulled off cells several times at well below 4.17V and the red charging light does not come back on when I put the cells back in the Pila.

I am still trying to borrow a Fluke meter.


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## pobox1475 (Dec 20, 2008)

I Googled "Fluke Multimeter" out of curiosity and found this; http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03470830000P?vName=Tools&cName=ElectricalShop&sName=Test%20&%20Measuring%20Tools&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a



> I am still trying to borrow a Fluke meter.


 
There is a $20 Craftsman listed that should be fully servicable that might fit you budget. Good luck .

Correction $10, on sale 

After further comparisons_* I*_ may get this one; http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03482345000P?vName=&cName=&sName=&mv=cmp It has a thermometer for air and surface measurments that should be useful.


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## Justin Case (Dec 20, 2008)

pobox1475 said:


> I Googled "Fluke Multimeter" out of curiosity and found this; http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...g Tools&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The problem with the Sears "Fluke" meter is that the photo shows the product to be an Amprobe. Further Googling shows that this Amprobe has a DCV accuracy of +/-0.5% + 2 digits, not much different from my DMM.

The second Sears meter has the exact same DCV accuracy.

I am not interested in spending money on something that has basically the same capability I already have.

May I respectfully request that people stop trying to give me "helpful" advice that I do not need. If I want to buy a meter, I will buy a meter. It isn't a budget issue, so please do not assume that it is and push cheap meters on me.

I am borrowing a Fluke. Why can't we leave it at that? Thanks.


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## digitor (Dec 20, 2008)

Justin Case said:


> The stated accuracy for my meter is +/-0.7% + 2 digits.



If the voltage being read here is 4.20, that +/- 0.7% is almost +/- 0.03V (0.294 to be exact). So this means the meter could read between 4.23 - 4.17 and still be within its spec. We've still got our +/- 2 digits to think of yet - if we assume that this is a 3.5 digit meter, this could give us indicated voltages of between 4.25 and 4.15V.

As the OP points out, these figures would probably be at the extremes of the tolerance spread, but they are still within the spec for the meter.

It's the +/- 2 digits spec that kill 3.5 digit meters - on the 20V range, that's +/- 0.02 volts, which at a low reading around 3 or 4 volts, is significant.

Cheers


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## cernobila (Dec 20, 2008)

Justin Case said:


> I am borrowing a Fluke. Why can't we leave it at that? Thanks.



No problem, if you would like contact details for Pila USA let me know and I will send them to you.


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## Justin Case (Dec 20, 2008)

cernobila said:


> No problem, if you would like contact details for Pila USA let me know and I will send them to you.



Thanks. I appreciate the offer. Let's see which Fluke model I can borrow and its specs and what the relative measurements are. I'll probably measure at least the following:

- voltages for all of my Li-ion cells (two decimal places displayed on my meter if the voltage is above 4V)
- voltages for the SF lithium primaries that happen to be sitting around on my shelf (three decimal places displayed on my meter)
- voltages for some AAA alkalines and NiMH cells
- charge up some cells in the Pila and measure them

That should cover the voltage range from about 1V to 4V.

Anything else?


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## Justin Case (Dec 20, 2008)

Since 4.2V seems to be a very common value for max voltage for LiCoO2-based secondaries, a 4.2V +/-0.05V spec seems like a poor choice IMO.

The extra 0.05V could mean losing a couple hundred cycles off of the cycle life. I would have much preferred a spec of 4.15 +/- 0.05. At a low of 4.1V, I give up say 10-15% capacity for most likely a very large increase in cycle life. At 4.2V, I'm at the typical recommended max float voltage, with still a reasonable cycle life.

Correct, a 3.5 digit meter. I agree that the +2 digit spec really kills low digit meters.

Edited: I think it's a 3 3/4 digit meter.


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## pobox1475 (Dec 21, 2008)

> "Now I suppose it could be that my meter is inaccurate."


 


> comparing multiple meters is not realistic since I don't have access to multiple meters, especially for any sort of extended monitoring that might stretch over weeks.


 


> Sadly, I am disinclined to spend the money on a Fluke.


 


> It isn't a budget issue, so please do not assume that it is and push cheap meters on me.


 



> May I respectfully request that people stop trying to give me "helpful" advice that I do not need.


 How are we to know what advice you may or may not need? Please understand the nature of this and most forums in that members willingly _attempt_ to help each other.
I did not assume anything and simply suggested an option that I deemed _*may*_ be viable.


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## SilverFox (Dec 21, 2008)

Hello Justin Case,

I don't think any of us "like" the specification... It is just what it is.

I would prefer that it was 4.2 volts plus 0.000 minus 0.05 volts. However, the specification as it stands is suppose to give 400 - 600 charge discharge cycles, and is what the industry has adopted. The people that make hobby chargers tend to follow my specification, but these chargers tend to be a little more expensive than the Pila IBC.

Tom


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## Justin Case (Dec 21, 2008)

pobox1475 said:


> How are we to know what advice you may or may not need? Please understand the nature of this and most forums in that members willingly _attempt_ to help each other.
> I did not assume anything and simply suggested an option that I deemed _*may*_ be viable.


Pobox,

When someone doesn't ask for advice and advice is given anyway, that is called unsolicited advice. Here is the nature of unsolicited advice: The advice offerer does not know what advice may be needed, if any at all, because none was requested. When advice is requested, then you'll know. Very simple.

You see, the deal is that I already knew what I wanted to do as followup steps. Sorry that I didn't explain all of my plans to you.

I finally explicitly asked that unsolicited advice be stopped, but that didn't work either. I posted the specs of my meter and was advised to consider buying more meters that are basically no better (even when I also stated multiple times that I am going to borrow a Fluke). Was that useful advice? No. Although I've never said that budget is an issue (all I said was that I was disinclined to buy a Fluke, and I have my own reasons, which I have no interest in sharing with you or anyone else), posters seem to assume that budget was an issue and started pushing cheap meters for me to buy. Was that useful advice? No.

Funny, though, how I have asked for advice on testing my meter vs. a Fluke, but you haven't offered any advice when I finally asked for it.

Can you please now leave it alone, just as I requested before? If you simply cannot leave it alone, you may have the last word.

I am going to try to borrow a Fluke and move on. I respectfully request that you move on as well.


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## Justin Case (Dec 21, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Justin Case,
> 
> I don't think any of us "like" the specification... It is just what it is.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'll probably just use the Pila as a convenient charger for 16340, 17670, and 18650 sized cells (instead of using lead wires on my WF-138, which also has a rather low charge rate for the bigger cells) and eventually get a hobby charger. In the meantime, my new charging plan is to charge only up to ~4.1V and I thus avoid the whole issue of going over 4.200V.

The reason I picked 4.15 +/- 0.05 is because it retains the Pila's original voltage detection accuracy spec, which I would presume would thus not require any major change in circuitry or design. All they would have to do is change the terminating float voltage or perhaps the minimum charger current termination. Otherwise, I'd certainly wish for a tighter spec as well as a user-selectable float voltage. But then the charger probably won't cost $50 retail anymore.

Thanks for the useful info on the Pila charger. Any idea what the charge current termination spec is for the Pila?


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## sygyzy (Mar 30, 2009)

*Re: PILA IBC Charger*

Is the Pila IBC charger the same one that came with Lionhearts?


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## Willieboy (May 15, 2009)

Recently, I purchased the SureFire C2. Dropped the Malkoff M60 in the same day. Yesterday, the Pila IBC arrived and today, two solid aluminum spacers arrived from Lighthound.

I just wanted to let everyone know that these spacers, combined with the AW RCR123 cells, fit perfectly into the Pila. I did not have to do any filing. I did remove the spacers that came with the Pila though.

The new AW cells charged in 45-60 minutes and are now nestled in the C2.


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## sygyzy (Aug 6, 2009)

I am sure this has been answered (couldn't find it in saerch) but is the Pila IBC charger the same that came with Mr Bulk Lionhearts?


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## recDNA (Apr 30, 2010)

My PILA consistantly charges all Li-Ion cells regardless of size, chemistry or protection to 3.17 volts. Should I press reset to get to 4.2?


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## TooManyGizmos (Apr 30, 2010)

>recDNA ,

I assume that's a Typo , and you meant 4.17 rather than 3.17

It won't help - it will just go back to green - right away.

~


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## pobox1475 (May 1, 2010)

> Should I press reset to get to 4.2?


 *No*.


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## TooManyGizmos (May 3, 2010)

? ... Who can explain the purpose for the reset button ?

Why would it need to be reset ?

~


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## 45/70 (May 3, 2010)

I don't own one, never have, but I thought the reset button was for cells that the protection circuit has tripped. I think it gives the cell a very short higher current (actually I think it's just a higher voltage, which would mean higher current) "blast" that resets the circuit. Then again, it's late and I should be asleep, not posting answers to important questions. 

Dave


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## mdocod (May 3, 2010)

Inserting a cell that is above ~4.05-4.10V into an IBC will result in the charger immediately "going green" and not initiating a charge. The reset button will force the initiation of the charge and bring it up the rest of the way. 

This is a nice feature because you can quickly just drop cells in and know if they are charged up or not. Anything above 4.10V is plenty charged. 

Eric


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## Tomcat! (May 3, 2010)

As a point of interest to UK flashaholics who want a Pila IBC, I stumbled across this UK site that sells them:
http://www.ledfiretorches.co.uk/pila-ibc-lithium-charger.html

Works out about £16.20GBP more expensive than Bugout Gear USA at this morning's exchange rate but could be useful if you don't fancy playing the ever popular game of 'Import Duty Roulette'. 
FYI I don't know how good the company is as I've not bought anything from them, but have since noticed them mentioned elsewhere on CPF.


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## distemper (Aug 7, 2010)

what is the weight of the Pila Charger package?

I am currently in the process of buying it through bug out gear and trying to put it through international 1st class mail which needs to be under 1lb


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## fishinfool (Aug 7, 2010)

distemper said:


> what is the weight of the Pila Charger package?
> 
> I am currently in the process of buying it through bug out gear and trying to put it through international 1st class mail which needs to be under 1lb


 
Aloha and welcome to CPF distemper! :wave:

I just now weighed mine and it came right under 1 pound (15.5 oz.) but it probably will go over 1 lb. depending on how they pack it. I bought mine at flashlightz.com for $45 plus $7.95 shipping but I'm in the US. Good luck.


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## GlukoO (Aug 27, 2010)

Hi, can you give me the link to the detail which I need to buy for Pila Charger? I need to charge AW R123 Li-Ion Rechargeable.
Can I charge only 1 battery - use only 1 slot of the charger?
Can I use 2 spacers from chargers's package at the same time for charging 1 123-type battery?
Or maybe I need another charger for my purposes?
Waiting for your help, thanks =)


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## Flashlight Aficionado (Aug 27, 2010)

GlukoO said:


> Hi, can you give me the link to the detail which I need to buy for Pila Charger? I need to charge AW R123 Li-Ion Rechargeable.


Not sure what you are asking. If you are looking for the charger on Bug Out Gear's (BOG) website it is HERE.



> Can I charge only 1 battery - use only 1 slot of the charger?


Yes.



> Can I use 2 spacers from chargers's package at the same time for charging 1 123-type battery?


No. The included spacers cannot be stacked. I bought magnetic spacers from BOG. Just ask for them. They are small and they do stack for height adjustment.



> Or maybe I need another charger for my purposes?


There are better chargers, but they are more expensive. This is the best bang-for-the-buck charger out there for Li-Ion.


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## GlukoO (Aug 27, 2010)

Flashlight Aficionado said:


> No. The included spacers cannot be stacked. I bought *magnetic spacers* from BOG. Just ask for them. They are small and they do stack for height adjustment.


I need them! =)

I'm just planning to buy flashlight (I like JETBeam RRT-0). :candle:
And I need a charger (I've chosen PilaCharger)...
As I can see (Maybe I'm wrong), JETBeam RRT-0 is compatible with AA NiMH, CR123, RCR123 and 14500 rechargeable Li-ion batteries.
Another question - _is AW-R123 from BOG_ compatible with JETBeaem RRT-0 or not?
Flashlight, charger, batteries. If all of them are compatible with each other, then I can buy them from BOG. And some phrases from this topic reflected on their compatibility.

So should I ask BOG support about this "magnetic spacers" via e-mail? 
Thanks for your help! And sorry for my English =)


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## Flashlight Aficionado (Aug 27, 2010)

GlukoO said:


> So should I ask BOG support about this "magnetic spacers" via e-mail?



Yes. Ask about flashlight stuff in another thread and another section.


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## biker1 (Sep 16, 2010)

Just received my Pila Charger. The charger came in 3 plastic bags that were put into a shipping envelope >

1 plastic bag had the charger
1 plastic bag had the plug adapter
1 plastic bag had the power supply*
* my DC charger didn't look like the one in the picture below (missing the inline capacitor, or whatever it's called? in the center) >


*




*


1_ 'Pila Intelligent Li-ion Battery Charging System'_ manual, dated 2005

Is this normal re: the plastic baggies. I don't need extra boxes lying around, but I thought a $50 Charger plus shipping charges would come in a box, like the black one I've seen around the web. Also, am I missing any parts or accessories?


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## ElectronGuru (Sep 16, 2010)

biker1 said:


> Is this normal re: the plastic baggies. I don't need extra boxes lying around, but I thought a $50 Charger plus shipping charges would come in a box, like the black one I've seen around the web. Also, am I missing any parts or accessories?




From Pila, the IBC comes in a black box, inside a white sleeve. 


In this box are the charger + 18500 spacers + manual:








and Power supply + 110 connector + 220 connector:








Depending on the configuration, it may also include a 12v cord:






If you have this, you are not missing more than the box. The charger, power cord, and extra power (and if included, 12v cord) connector come individually bagged.


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## biker1 (Sep 16, 2010)

What is the DC power supply supposed to look like ?My charger specs are >

model no. SFB0602000P
Input: 100-240V 50-60Hz 0.5A
Output: 6V--2000mA

There is a symbol with an "H" ? in the center.


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## ElectronGuru (Sep 16, 2010)

biker1 said:


> my DC charger didn't look like the one in the picture below (missing the inline capacitor





biker1 said:


> What is the DC power supply supposed to look like?



You would need to check with Pila to be certain, but if your 12v cord does not look like this (including red LED and Pila logo), it may not be from Pila.


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## biker1 (Sep 17, 2010)

@ ElectronGuru 

I apologize. I meant to ask what the AC charger for the home is supposed to look like.

I just read ther Pila spec sheet, and it says that the power supply should be
6 VDC/2.5A

The power supply I have says >

6VDC/2000mA

I assume my power supply is not a Pila


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## geezer (Sep 17, 2010)

biker1,

I ordered my Pila from Pila-USA about a month ago. It came in a box with white sleeve as described above. The power supply that I received with the charger matches your description exactly:

model no. SFB0602000P
Input: 100-240V 50-60Hz 0.5A
Output: 6V--2000mA

There is a symbol with an "H" in the center

It does not have a ferrite choke core on the DC side of the power supply as the photo you posted shows.


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## biker1 (Sep 17, 2010)

@ geezer

I appreciate your assistance.
I guess I'm just missing the shiny (or matte) black box. No big deal, as the rest of the contents seem to be in order.

Out of curiosity, what is the Pila charging your 18650"s to.


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## geezer (Sep 17, 2010)

Mine has never overcharged my 2600/2900 mAh cells. Seems like they have always been 4.17-4.19 as checked with my Fluke right after the charge shows complete.


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## ElectronGuru (Sep 24, 2010)

biker1 said:


> I guess I'm just missing the shiny (or matte) black box.



Checking with Pila, they only offer their charges in the box. If you received one without one, it was removed later. It adds considerable weight/bulk, so doing so probably saves on shipping.


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## biker1 (Sep 24, 2010)

ElectronGuru said:


> Checking with Pila, they only offer their charges in the box. If you received one without one, it was removed later. It adds considerable weight/bulk, so doing so probably saves on shipping.


Thanks. Coincidentally, I spoke with bugoutgearusa earlier today, and the guy said that it is bulk packaging, when it is without the box.
Guess that's how he receives the charger, when a large quantity is ordered.


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## biker1 (Oct 5, 2010)

Have had my Pila IBC for about 2 weeks.
I have charged 10 AW cells on it, from RCR123A's - 18650 2900mAH.
They have come off the charger at between 4.06V-4.11V & 4.13-4.16V, with the R123A's at the lower end.
I understand about charging batteries to a lower cut-off, and uncalibrated DMM's. 
With the above being said, I am not satisfied with the cut off voltages of this Pila, and will be looking into a different charger.. As was mentioned before, different Pilas can have different cut-offs. I would have liked to have had a Pila that charged @ 4.17 -4.19V 
In addition, I have been told that the Pila IBC charger should be used with Pila batteries, and if used with other batteries, the results may not be the same. The Pila site does mention this, as well as the Pila charging system.
I would assume if different batteries are used, the warranty would not be in effect.
Next time I will research a little more before purchasing.


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## flatline (Oct 5, 2010)

biker1 said:


> Have had my Pila IBC for about 2 weeks.
> I have charged 10 AW cells on it, from RCR123A's - 18650 2900mAH.
> They have come off the charger at between 4.06V-4.11V & 4.13-4.16V, with the R123A's at the lower end.
> I understand about charging batteries to a lower cut-off, and uncalibrated DMM's.
> ...



The left channel of my Pila cuts off around 4.14v. The right channel cuts off around 4.18v. If I hit the reset button to start charging again, both channels terminate around 4.20v.

You might want to try the same thing.

--flatline


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## biker1 (Oct 5, 2010)

flatline said:


> The left channel of my Pila cuts off around 4.14v. The right channel cuts off around 4.18v. If I hit the reset button to start charging again, both channels terminate around 4.20v.
> 
> You might want to try the same thing.
> 
> --flatline



Thanks for that.
I did try the reset a few times previously to no avail.
But I will try that again, and maybe bend the contacts slightly.
I also have a channel that charges slightly less, which is normal from what I have read.

Update:
I put the following AW 18650 2900mAH cells on the charger, and got the following readings prior to charging >

#1 - 4.14V
#2 - 4.13V

I pressed reset, the unit lights turned red for a few seconds, and back to green. No voltage change.
I took a reading of the voltage from the power supply ----- 6.14V


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## les_garten (Mar 16, 2011)

I have a Pila IBC that works fine with AW 16340s. I just got 8 Trustfire BlackFire 16340s. They measured 3.8v, all of them. I put one in the charger and nothing happens. The lights on the Pila act like I did not put a battery in. I put in a 18650 or one of my AW 16340s and ir works fine. I discharfed one of the cells in a light down to 2.7v. No change. The Pila does not see the Trustfires at all.

Anybody seen this?


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## recDNA (Mar 16, 2011)

I have 2 pilas. Neither charges higher than 3.18 v ever. Usually only to 3.16. Reset does nothing.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## HKJ (Mar 16, 2011)

recDNA said:


> I have 2 pilas. Neither charges higher than 3.18 v ever. Usually only to 3.16. Reset does nothing.



Two Pilas that does not work? You probably mean *4*.18 volt.


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## 45/70 (Mar 16, 2011)

Assuming that HKJ's assumption is correct, 4.16-4.18 Volts is a typical end OC voltage for LiCo cells charged with a charger utilizing a proper charging algorithm, such as the Pila or a hobby charger. If you have a charger that consistently charges cells to ~4.20 Volts OC regardless of the cells age, or condition, there's something wrong with it.

Dave


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## les_garten (Mar 16, 2011)

Hey,
Any help with my question:



> I have a Pila IBC that works fine with AW 16340s. I just got 8 Trustfire BlackFire 16340s. They measured 3.8v, all of them. I put one in the charger and nothing happens. The lights on the Pila act like I did not put a battery in. I put in a 18650 or one of my AW 16340s and ir works fine. I discharfed one of the cells in a light down to 2.7v. No change. The Pila does not see the Trustfires at all.
> 
> Anybody seen this?


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## 45/70 (Mar 16, 2011)

les_garten said:


> Hey,
> Any help with my question:



Hi les. The only thing I can think of is make sure both ends of each cell are making proper contact with the contacts/adapter in the charger. It sounds like a contact problem, to me. I don't own and never have owned a Pila charger, but if it works for other cells, that's the only thing I can think of. Are the positive nipples more recessed than on the cells that do charge for example? You might also try inserting the cell and rolling it back and forth a bit to see if that helps.

Dave


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## les_garten (Mar 16, 2011)

45/70 said:


> Hi les. The only thing I can think of is make sure both ends of each cell are making proper contact with the contacts/adapter in the charger. It sounds like a contact problem, to me. I don't own and never have owned a Pila charger, but if it works for other cells, that's the only thing I can think of. Are the positive nipples more recessed than on the cells that do charge for example? You might also try inserting the cell and rolling it back and forth a bit to see if that helps.
> 
> Dave


 

Yeah it's strange, doesn't make any sense to me.

I was wondering if anyone else had seen this woth the Trustfire's and the Pila?


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## les_garten (Mar 16, 2011)

OK, figured out what the problem is. The Trustfires are longer than the spec for 16340s. You have a hard time getting them in there with the dummy cells. Somewhere, It looks like at the Neg terminal that the contact is forced away from contact. I used a jumper insteadof the dummy cell and it worked fine!


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## 45/70 (Mar 17, 2011)

les_garten said:


> OK, figured out what the problem is.



Glad you found out what the problem is. Could you just stick a small magnet on the bottom of the cell instead of using a jumper? Sounds like there isn't enough room though.

Dave


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## les_garten (Mar 17, 2011)

You have to use a dummy cell or something similiar. I found some Bolts that were a little shorter than the dummy cells. That gave methe room I need and it's all good now!


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## tobarger (Mar 17, 2011)

Had my Pila for a few months now and am very pleased
Bought the magnet 18650 adapter for 3.7v batteries that don't fit the cradle
Very nice Martin
Thanks EG for clearing up the trickle charge misinformation


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## Bolster (May 5, 2011)

For the record, my new Pila IBC charger put out 670 mA, not 600 mA. I returned it.


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## rebar (Dec 5, 2011)

Iv got the Pila IBC with the European and American plug. Im planning a trip to the Netherlands soon. Does the power supply automatically adjust to 220 input when using the European plug?

Thanks


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## Norm (Dec 6, 2011)

SilverFox said:


> The original Pila chargers charged at 1.5 amps and this current allowed the protection circuit to easily reset and then the cell could be charged.
> 
> Tom



Tom is this the same or similar to the charger that was supplied with Wolf Eyes flashlights 3 or 4 years ago?

I still have a couple of these chargers in the junk drawer, I stopped using them some years ago when I became aware of the termination method. 

Thanks Norm


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## DM51 (Dec 6, 2011)

IRIC the Wolf Eyes chargers did not terminate properly at all, but instead relied on the cell's protection circuit to cut off the charge. That's why WE chargers were considered unsafe, as people who didn't know any better might use them with unprotected cells.


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## SilverFox (Dec 6, 2011)

Hello Norm,

I believe that is the case. The revised Pila charge is the Pila IBC unit.

Tom


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## Norm (Dec 6, 2011)

Thanks both for the confirmation, I've been thinking of using them just as charging cradles and am happy now that I won't be destroying anything of value.
Although saying that I managed to find an Aussie dealer with the Pila IBC for about the same price as in the US with the correct mains plug adaptor and free post so it is a project I really need to worry about at the moment. I'm sure I'll find a use for them at some point.

Norm


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## tobrien (Dec 9, 2011)

this may be a dumb question, but are the XTAR WP6 II 6 bay charger and Pila charger very different? I currently use the aforementioned XTAR for my needs, but I'm wondering out of curiosity if it's very different from the Pila other than by the bay numbers?


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