# Full range speakers vs. Satellite set-ups



## geepondy (Mar 29, 2003)

Tell if I'm just being old-fashioned or not. Nowadays satellite speaker systems appear to be the norm with tiny tweeters mated to a big subwoofer. Ten, twenty years ago these systems were much less common and you had full range, albeit big, speakers with 12-18" woofers, 6-8" midrange speakers and small tweeters all contained in each speaker assembly along with the proper cross over electronics. It seems to me that these speakers did a much better job at defining the sound and provided a much more "real" truer to original form sound. What do you guys think?


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## Darell (Mar 29, 2003)

My favorite setup is to contain the tweeters and midrange in a satellite cabinet, and let the woof and sub information come from a box that is meant for that purpose.

Now you have to understand that I have dual 15" subs powered by a 1200W high-current Amp. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

There are some single-enclosure speakers that sound better than my setup, but not for less than about twice the money. That's what it came down to for me. For thousands more, I probably could have gotten better sound from single enclosures, but I wasn't willing to go there.

I use PSB Minis for my satellites (four of them for 5.1 surround) and a Mirage Sub.


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## Alan Hsu (Mar 29, 2003)

As an audio- and videophile in addition to flasholic, I agree that full-range speakers (most are not exactly full range according to audiophile standard, which means they can't do 20Hz well) often sound more coherent than tiny satellite speakers with subwoofer. The key problem is that the crossover frequency between satellites and subwoofer is so high that listeners sense not all the sounds that are supposed to come from the same direction doesn't do so since proper integration between main and satellite speakers have always been a issue, even with the best audio gear. Though www.audioasylum.com and www.avsforum.com may be better places to discuss such subject.


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## Sigman (Mar 30, 2003)

Downstairs in the family room, I have my Kenwoods (main "A" speakers 4-way, 6 speakers w/12" woofers), added Bose surround center, left rear, & right rear speakers , coupled to a Kenwood THX surround sound amp...sounds great! 

Upstairs in my living room I have the tiny Bose speakers all around for my main "A" set, center, left rear & right rear. Active Kenwood subwoofer (as well as the passive Bose subwoofers) all hooked into a Kenwood THX surround sound amp. 

Though the sound downstairs is great...the sound upstairs is REALLY GREAT! I love the way you can aim the little Bose speakers for direct and indirect sound. When sitting on the sofa listening to music or a DVD...close the eyes and the sounds just envelop the listener. 

Of course room acoustics have a major role in this, but if I had to pick one system for my house, it would be the one I have set up in the living room. 

The larger Kenwoods are like pieces of furniture, whereas the little Bose satellites can hardly be seen and put out so much sound!


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## geepondy (Mar 30, 2003)

I must admit my thoughts and experiences have been based on pretty much sub $1,000 speaker systems.


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## Alan Hsu (Mar 30, 2003)

Darrell,

Congrat on the PSBs, which are excellent speakers for the money.


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## darkgear.com (Mar 30, 2003)

Sat-sub systems are more than enough for 99% of everyone out there. I have Klipsch 5.1 for my computer. I have Infinity Modulus on bedroom home stereo. Heh, even Polk Momo's in the car. I worked at, at the time, the only factory Bose store in the world in Hawaii after high school and even met Dr. Bose a couple of times. BUT I also hung around people that listened to wire (you audiophiles know what I'm talking about). 

I have installed and listened to speakers that cost a lot of money like Thiel, Magnepan, Carver Ultimates, and all the brands I own now. I even got to go to one of Paul McCartney's homes on Phoenix to listen to the Infinity Reference V's he had installed in his studio. For those of you who do not know what those are hrmm.. well the price went up $10,000 one year just because Kapton, the rare earth material used in the drivers, went up in price. They typically sold for $45-50K. 

Getting to the point, For the best sound reproduction (besides binaural) full range cabinets still beat sat-sub systems. Even the best sat-sub system have holes in the sound, including ones that have electronic compensation. Now let me quantify this by saying that I'm taking about high end audio. If you talk about less than $2K heck buy Klipsch Promedia "computer speakers", It'll knock you socks off 

For non-audiophile(read non-flashaholic equivalent) use Sat-sub setups are very good. But if I really want to listen to something and escape I still go to my Klipschorns.

Best regards,
Randy


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## Skyline (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm also a believer in "full" range speakers. Satellites/sub setups require the sub to produce frequencies that are too high to be truly non-directional.

My setup includes the Paradigm Monitor 9 fronts (dual 8" woofers, 1" tweeter), CC-350 center (dual 6.5" woofers, 1" tweeter), Monitor 3 rears (8" woofer, 1" tweeter), and Paradigm Reference Servo-15 sub (15"). I don't regret going "full" range at all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

(I quoted "full" because there are few speakers that are truly full-range, capable of producing 15hz-20000hz.)


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## darkgear.com (Mar 30, 2003)

Oh, but wait! Check the specs on those cheapo speakers at wal-mart 20-20K and they handle 400Watts! OMG! 

Heh sorry, after working with audio equipment all my life that's just one of my pet peeves 

Best regards,
Randy


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## darkgear.com (Mar 30, 2003)

Found a pic of the IRS V.







7.5 feet tall and definitely "full" range /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## iddibhai (Mar 30, 2003)

oh my... where are the mids/tweets on that puppy?


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## itsme1234 (Mar 30, 2003)

Remember Kodak and APS ? At some point a "genius" decided that most people don't enlarge pictures, so they need only about 50% from a normal 35 mm film. And they invented APS, so you could buy about half the film for the same (or more) money.
The same with speakers. At some point somebody decided that humans can't perceive the direction for low freq. So one subwoofer should be enough. Welcome to 2+1 systems, cheaper to produce, about the same output (but _not_ the same) and usually no cheaper than a similar regular "stereo" setup!
And after that they come with 4+1 setup, then 5+1, then 7+1. Or Dolby 5+1 (7+1) for normal stereo headphones ! Come on, we only have 2 ears !
Anyway, at the 5+1 point I gave up. I have no-name speakers for computer, home cinema, etc. (but wood only, no plastic). They are used WAY under their capabilities (close neighbors), so I have more than decent sound. For HI-FI I have my Sennheiser control HD270 (closed headphones). They have a nearly flat answer for 12 Hz-22kHz; I know I can’t afford a similar speaker system, and more important, a good place to put it.


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Mar 30, 2003)

That's why I got a sat-sub system 30 years ago; cheaper and you can hear, and feel, all the notes.. the sats (the cylindrical JR-149's - improved offshoot of the legendary Jim Roger's British BBC's LS3-5A's speakers, reknowned for classical violin accuracy) have large enough midranges so that the subwoofer (M&K single 10" woofer) doesn't have to play too high..it's all hooked up to a RAM 200 watt amp -- all old components but lovely sound last time I heard them 8 years ago when they went into storage - I'll be hearing them again when the house is built..
Yet, still, the best sound I ever heard was from a pair of AR 3a's, people used to come around to my dorm room thinking there was live music being played..
The gigantic Klipsch Voice of the Theater speaker are amazing too, and play so incredibly loud with just 5 watts or so of power! A friend had a pair hanging from the ceiling - awesome. It was funny how just a puny little amp was more than sufficient to power those monsters..
I haven't been following every issue of Audio or Stereophile, so I've lost touch with the latest technology -- so what is the latest and greatest sound out there today? Any new technologies I haven't heard of? (please keep it to under a couple thou for the speakers, if I can't afford it, it doesn't count /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )


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## Charles Bradshaw (Mar 30, 2003)

Currently, I am using midiland with sub and 2 sats on my computer. They give me full enough response. Same with the speakers (amplified) for my 5 CD player, and the sharper image CD/radio (vertical CD) that I have. Full range to me, is enough frequency response to distinguish all of the instruments, particularly the percussion. The junk that you find in common retail stereos (shelf or boombox) has a lower limit of about 150 Hz (you know there is percussion, but not what instruments). This probably doesn't matter to most rockers, but, it does matter to those who like Classical and New Age music, like I do.

As to what you guys are talking about, I go with what I can afford, that meets my freq response criteria, at the time I am going to buy. After that, I don't have to think about it.


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## binky (Mar 30, 2003)

My ears have always voted for the full speakers because the satellite setups lose in the mid range. I like great midrange because that's where speach and other regular life-like sounds are. Plus, highs are so easy to get right that any setup will probably give you decent tweeting. If there's a satellite that gives you a dedicated set of speakers for midrange too, then maybe it'd be okay for sound, but then you've just set up 5 or 6 boxes around the room instead of 2 or 3(if subwoofer), so again my vote goes to the full speakers.


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## The_LED_Museum (Mar 30, 2003)

I vote for full sized regular speakers too.
With tiny satellites and a subwoofer, you're definitely missing the midrange, where most of the vocals and instruments are.

I have a 5-speaker system on my computer, a few REALLY BIG JVC boomboxes, and a good sized "bookshelf" stereo; and I think the computer stereo system beats them all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Of course I can't turn it up too loud, or the neighbors will pound on their floors, ceilings, and walls with toliet plunger handles or broomsticks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif 
Then again, playing 1980s video game music or Kraftwerk CDs on the thing probably doesn't help matters. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Mar 30, 2003)

KRAFTWERK = COOL!!!!

Here in front of me at home are two "Labtec" powered speakers hooked to my 'puter. Could be better, but does pretty much what I want them to do.

My home theater consists of a first or maybe second gen Dolby reciever (Sony) feeding a Pair of Radio Shack full size speakers at least 20 years old, a Rat Shack center channel, and some decent Rat Shack surrounds over my shoulders.

Movies like Saving Private Ryan sound pretty darn good in there!

Anyhow, CHEAP plays here just fine. There ain't no way I'd pay High End prices!!!!


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Mar 30, 2003)

satellites don't necessarily mean thin mid-range. as I posted above, if you buy a pair of speakers anything like the JR's (or todays equivalents - what would they be? - Kefs maybe?) to go with your subwoofer, you'll have one of the most accurate mid-ranges ever produced.. 
history of JRs and other small highly accurate midrange speakers;

http://www.b52wood.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/jr%20ribben.htm

picture of Jim Rogers! - (met him at an Expo in New York, couldn't understand a word he said through that accent! Whelsh?)

http://www.b52wood.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/jr149-history5.htm


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## tiktok 22 (Mar 31, 2003)

Hi Gee,

Been an audiophile nut for almost two decades. Technically a satellite speaker system IS a full range speaker system. The only real difference is control over gain, phase and crossover points. I'm not talking about small systems,(bose,polk) I am talking about good quality seperates. IMHO the best systems in the world are satellite systems.

http://www.wilsonaudio.com/products/wamm/main.shtml
http://www.martinlogan.com/statement_speaker.html


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## The_LED_Museum (Mar 31, 2003)

My roomie at the Juneau Receiving Home for several years in the late 1970s and early 1980s was an audiophile, and though I'm ashamed to admit it, I did learn a bit about amps & speakers from him. (He learned about LEDs, lasers, and scanners from me!)

From what I know, those tiny satellite speakers have trouble with the midrange, which is why I'd recommend "full sized" regular speakers with subwoofer if you're after true musical fidelity. But if you're looking for good quality satellite systems, the links in Tiktok's post are probably a good place to start.


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Mar 31, 2003)

let's see, the Wamm is $150,000.00 and the Martin Logans weigh 1,800 lbs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif ..for something a little cheaper and lighter try

http://www.kef.com/kefamerica/home.html


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## tiktok 22 (Mar 31, 2003)

Hi Ted,

You are absolutely right. WAY to much money and WAY to heavy! Just emphasizing that the best of the best use satellite configurations, including the Infinity IRS V.

Cheers,
Kev


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Mar 31, 2003)

welll, yeah..I guess you could call the Wamm a satellite configuration in that the drivers have their own separate enclosures (helps with damping vibration and reducing refraction) but not satellite in the sense that there are two (or more) speakers that create the soundstage ie. whose sound 'revolves' (like satellites) around a single subwoofer.. but I won't quibble /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## tiktok 22 (Mar 31, 2003)

Hi Guys,

Setting aside the "high end" stuff, I think small systems tend to suffer greatly in dynamics and effiency. Not that all small systems do (some are very good at dynamics and have poor effiency). Some of these small systems require a lot of adjustment to get them to sound right in a given room(subwoofer placement and phase adjustments). Full range speakers tend to be easier to set up. They take up a lot of space and are usually more dynamic. Both can sound good if set up properly though. Sometimes this just takes some trial and error.

cheers,
Kev


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Mar 31, 2003)

no lack of dynamics, (or the ability to play very soft and very loud passages accurately), in the best small speakers, all they lack is a little bass, which is what the subwoofer's for..as for efficiency that is certainly true; small acoustic suspension speakers require the most power of any design, much more than huge (400 lb + ?) Klipsch Voice of the Theater speakers, even. That's why I use them with at a 100 watt per channel amp. As for ease of positioning, a critical factor when creating the listening 'sweet spot' -- satellites excell, I find they are far easier to adjust and position than larger speakers.


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## binky (Mar 31, 2003)

Maybe I haven't sampled satellite systems that are priced high enough, so my generalization about sat systems should have been taken to mean, um, "real-world" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif systems that are down below a gazillion dollars. (Just jabbing at some of you who own things like them thar Klipschhorns, & such, being amp'd with rare music-smoothing tubes that'll heat your house in the winter months) Heh heh.

Or you could say that for satellite boxes I'm most familiar with Bose & Cambridge Soundworks, so it's their fault I think sat systems have no midrange. Heck, I even own a pair of Bose 901's that are great until you plug in the "required" Bose equalizer that adds audible distortion and also muffles the sound. Okay, maybe that's the reason Bose has such a bad reputation among the audiophile forums, which I discovered after I'd bought them. 

ramble ramble ramble. Sorry to ramble so.


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## tiktok 22 (Mar 31, 2003)

Hi Bink,

You can get really good sound from a system set up from "real world" components. Right now I am using B&W 601 series two speakers powered by an adcom preamp and amplification. I am using a passive subwoofer powered by an adcom GFA-555 II and an external crossover. If you close your eyes it seems like this system is ten foot tall. Setting this system up required about a week of adjusting and tweaking. The hardest part was the smooth transition from the sub and satellites, but once I got it, it's to die for. 

cheers,
Kev


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## lessing (Mar 31, 2003)

I have to say, that I think the best setup for a home is 6" two way studio monitors for the front and surround, and a single sub for the low end. Yamaha two way studio monitors are not that expensive, are really flat in response, and have good real power ratings. All of the home equipment listing 200Watts output power is a huge lie anyway, because anything over 50% of its power out runs into clipping on bass notes and the distortion goes through the roof. Normal people at home, even playing really loud music hardly ever push more than a nominal 50watts, the rest of the power is for transient surges for bass notes. 

Number one improvement to any stereo before more expensive equipment or speakers is a 15band or preferably 31 band graphic eq and maybe a 6band parametric if your room has really bad accoustics to fix the warmth added to the original recording by the equipment abd the shortfalls of the speakers. All speakers shape music by nature of thier design, and amps and routing equipment do as well. Pink noising and leveling a room with a large eq will flatten the response. Never touch those eqs after that, and add a cheap 5 or ten band eq to do any general adjustments you like to your sound.

Thats my long 2 cents


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## darkgear.com (Mar 31, 2003)

I have always been a fan of the "buy speakers from a speaker only manufacturer and buy electronics from an electronics only manufacturer" school of thought but after hearing these I have to promote them. (and look power handling with a standard specified /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

http://alesis.com/products/monitors/index.html

These Alesis monitors have got to some of the best bookshelf type monitors I have heard. I have heard both and they are well worth the money. Oh, and the HD24 is AWESOME! Anyone in sound reinforcement and recording out there? I love this box.

Best regards,
Randy


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## lessing (Mar 31, 2003)

Alesis are awesome. Thier Eqs are a great buy too, especially the dual 31 band compact model. Its hard to buy something from a speaker only manufacturer and a electronics only manufacturer. They are all owned by each other and so in bed with each other, that you can not really say that they are different companies. Just look at the Harmon Group, This one super company is Harmon/Kardon Crown JBL and several others, I think BSS is in there.


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## tiktok 22 (Mar 31, 2003)

Some high end audio just for fun!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

http://www.revelspeakers.com/4way_lit.htm
http://www.marklevinson.com/index3.htm
http://www.krellonline.com/
http://www.bwspeakers.com/
http://www.wilsonaudio.com/
http://www.martinlogan.com/
http://www.dunlavyaudio.com/
http://www.sunfire.com/


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## BuddTX (Mar 31, 2003)

I have a lot of thoughts on this, but first . . .

GO WITH WHAT you like! Go with what sounds best to you in your price range.

If you like the bose, then go with it, Polk satalite, go with it.

It's an ENTERTAINMENT center, and it is supposed to ENTERTAIN YOU! (Not me, and not the experts, but YOU!)

I personally do not like those tiny speakers, and a hidden sub-woofer, but my turning point was about 8 years ago, when I saw a demo of the bose satalite system (I really do not like bose bty), and in the demo, they were talking about the high "SAR" rating this system had. Now, I have been an audiophile from way back, but was not familiar with the SAR rating, and when I asked, the guy said "SAR - Spouse Approval Rating". I then had a friend who purchased a state of the art speaker system, only to take it back because his wife did not like how big it was, but he was allowed to buy the Bose system.

Now before you buy . . .

Get a reference CD or two or three, and pick ones that you like, and are familiar with. This is a little different from finding the most accurate speakers, where wou would take a recorded source, and compare it to a live source.

Go listen to some reference systems. Go to a high end stereo place on a week day, during the day (so you don't waste someone's time) and say you want to get your ears aquainted to a reference system. Now, look at sytems in your price range, starting at the store you just listened to the reference system.

When you find what you like, ask them if you can return it, no questions asked, within a couple of days, as systems can sound different in your home vs in the store.

Now, Bose is very popular, but I do not prefer them.

I like Polk and B&W speakers, if you can afford them. Polk used to be AWESOME in the lower range speakers, but then they became "mainstream", and started selling expensive systems, and, in my opinion, their lower priced systems lost their sizzle.

After you made your decision, before purchasing, do some research. Is it a "house" brand, or an unknown brand, or is it a name brand. Is their favorable reviews?

I could write forever on this, but I am at work and have to go!

Good luck and remember to have fun.


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## ab (Apr 1, 2003)

Ooof, lots of ideas here.

My ideas are probably best communicated by my own audio system:

Philips CD880 custom modded for transport-only duty
custom 24/196 upconverting vacuum-tube buffered D/A converter
custom-built single-ended-triode preamplifier
custom-built single-ended-triode amplification
all custom-built single-driver full-range speaker systems
(Tannoy 12" monitor golds, several other single-driver full-range systems including a couple more pairs of other Tannoys, several pairs of vintage Goodmans, various Fostex units, etc.)

That's my audio system. Video is different entirely (there's a different goal here):

NAD DVD player
Fosgate Model 3A processor
custom single-ended-triode vacuum tube preamplifier
custom Harmon-Kardon Citation V vacuum tube power amplifier (& assorted other tube amps as the mood strikes)
big Canton monitors for fronts
custom centre and rear speakers
B&K ST140
pair custom isobaric stereo subwoofers

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

A.


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Apr 1, 2003)

AB, you do know this makes you certifiable..? watch out for lunatics like this folks.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif 
I was relieved to see you live in Canada, so all those tubes can do some good to help heat the house, at least.. 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## darkgear.com (Apr 1, 2003)

Heh, TedtheLed. ab, Slick setup.


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## Bushman (Apr 1, 2003)

I love my Energy Take 5.1 system. the best rated (at the time) sub $1000 home theater system out there and even with the sub i got it new for under $600. Just added a Yamaha RX-V 496 & DVD player and i was ready to go... www.energyspeakers.com GO CANADA!!!


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## Skyline (Apr 1, 2003)

Sad to say, but Dunlavy Audio is history.

[ QUOTE ]
As of November 7, 2002, Dunlavy Audio Labs, LLC has ceased operations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh, the Dunlavy SC-VI were my dream speakers. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


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## tiktok 22 (Apr 2, 2003)

Hi Sky,

The good part is there are a lot of used models and trade- ins in mint condition waiting to be had! I never thought Dunlavy was overpriced(compared to other models of this quality) when they were new, so I bet the price on used ones are very reasonable.

Cheers,
Kev


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## Tree (Apr 2, 2003)

You can always get the Gaudi speaker system. Only $225,000. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have mostly full range speakers 8" low driver and 3/4" high and a 10" sub plus some smaller speakers for rear.

Full range + a sub is what I would do for home theater. Sattelite+Sub is fine for computers.


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