# Budget high-cap pistol?



## StoneDog (May 15, 2006)

Hi everyone,

Now that hi-cap mags are legal again, I think I need to pick up an affordable pistol. Would prefer .40 or .45 and don't really care for Glocks that much. I don't mind buying second-hand as that usually means a better price, but what are my choices? 

Jon


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## Jumpmaster (May 15, 2006)

As with all things, you get what you pay for.

For myself, I would not put "affordable" and "weapon" in the same sentence if I may find myself needing to rely on that weapon to defend myself in a life or death situation.

I carry an H&K USP 45C.

Now if you're talking about just plinking around for fun where an occasional "boom....boom....click...click...click..." is ok, check out the Tec-9. 

JM-99


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## StoneDog (May 15, 2006)

Ahh, excellent point - should have explained myself better. All of my gear is very reliable, espeically my carry piece (Sig P239 .40). I plan to add something like a FAL or AK to my collection as well, along with a high cap pistol. This would not be a primary defense tool, more of a backup piece that would be stored away for long periods of time and called into action if needed. 

When I say affordable, I mean in the same category as a pre-owned Glock. I would love an H&K and if I were starting from scratch I'd probably track down a USP40 compact for carry. As it stands, I can't really consider anything over the $400 mark...

Jon


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## BIGIRON (May 15, 2006)

We're now back to "standard capacity" from reduced capacity. Hope we can keep it that way.

Price does not equal reliability. Seems that I've heard of more reliability problems with Kimbers than anything else. But I've been out of that arena for a few years.

My primary companion for over 30 years has been a 45 Commander. I picked up a Rock Island about a year ago on impulse. Kinda rough, but very accurate and has had no function problems in 500+ rounds of hardball. I'm not suggesting a full sized 1911 as an EDC.


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## Malpaso (May 15, 2006)

If your hands are big enough, check out the double stack Para 1911.


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## Jumpmaster (May 15, 2006)

I can understand about having a backup weapon, but I would not carry anything any less reliable than my H&K.

I have my own opinions about Glocks after having shot several of them, but I will not voice them here so that a flame war does not ensue.

You might check out Beretta. I used to have a 92FS that was very reliable and could hold 15+1. When I was a commissioned security officer, I was able to carry 46 rounds on me.  (If I ever had to use that many rounds, I was told to save #46 for myself... )

JM-99


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## sniper (May 15, 2006)

You might do well to consider another weapon in the same caliber as your primary. Reduces the logistics somewhat. 

A look at the CZ line might prove interesting, also. 

You have probably noticed there are no bargains in new or used guns anymore, so be prepared to pay close to max, from a reputable dealer. That can save problems down the road. 

I had an interesting discussion with the guru of a self-defense forum, and asked if there could be a problem switching defense systems from a primary carry autoloader to a back-up gun, recommended as a small revolver, in the heat of a social engagement. He said "No." I thought that was passing strange. 

Sometime later, someone else asked the same question, and the answer, which was backed up by several other experienced opinions, was adaptation was indeed necessary. The point? I guess, pick your experts carefully, and verify any information that could be detrimental to your health.

Good luck with your search.


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## ACMarina (May 15, 2006)

How many is hi-cap?? 

Really, I mean, you could take a survey of people here but it wouldn't make a bit of difference to what you are comfortable with. People tend to be fond of what they're comfortable with and they'll recommend it, but even if everybody recommended a particular handgun it wouldn't mean squat if you didn't like it. Kinda like arguing LED vs. Incandescent vs. HID with a couple of people saying "No, LASER!!"

Offhand, I'd say Ruger P-series would be a good bet. They're ugly as all get out, but they have always done well in any activity I've seen them put up to. And you can get them pretty easily around your price range.


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## ACMarina (May 15, 2006)

PS - I don't even know if it's possible, but does Sig offer something that uses the same magazine as your current carry piece?? It would be nice to offer ammo and magazine interchangability..


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## StoneDog (May 15, 2006)

*malpaso* - Will check out the Para, but I seem to remember they were a little pricey. A P14 would be just about perfect!

*Jumpmaster* - I have found that while I like the idea of the Glock, I just can't shoot them well. I've owned a model 19 and a model 23 but could barely keep them on the paper at 15 feet. With my Sig and many other pistols I can double tap into a bull fairly easily. On the other hand, I rented a G20 in 10mm and found it to be very accurate but 10mm is too dern expensive.

*Sniper* - I forgot about the CZ line (is that the same as the EAA Witness line?). Will look into them too.

*ACMarina* - I'm going by Mr. Brady's definition of high-capacity, which is anything over 10 rounds. I'm not and advocate of "spray and pray", nor do I believe 14 rounds makes you twice as likely to survive a home invasion as 7. But, I have a feeling legislation will change again after the next presidential election, so I want to get while the gettin' is good. 

My carry piece is a single stack .40 w/ 7 rounds. The magazines are expensive and not compatible with any other pistol that I know. Otherwise it (P239) is a fantastic little weapon.

I just ran across the new Springfield XD .45 - 13+1 rounds of .45 ACP, a Glock-ish mechanism plus a trigger safety similar to the 1911. It meets almost all of my requirements (will be > $500) but it looks, on paper at least, to be a nice pistol.

Jon


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## zulu45 (May 15, 2006)

*I have to second the idea of the Springfield XD pistols. They're absolutely great. I, personally, use an XD-9 SubCompact, and it has never failed. Of course, when I need a bit more power, I go to the other gun in my sig, my Springfield 1911-A1 G.I. .45 OD. Both are great shooters, and very reliable.*

*Also, CZ makes great guns. I used to own a CZ-75BD, before I gave it to my mom for her to learn, and it has (literally) NEVER jammed or had a FTE/FTF once, even when not properly lubricated. It is, in my opinion, superior to the Beretta 92 in reliablity, but inferior when it comes to safety (such as the safety  ). The Beretta, however, when properly maintained, is a great firearm. I own a 92FS Brig., and my friend has a 96F (the .40 S&W version), and they work great.*

*I'm a big fan of Springfield, however, and I'm sure their new XD-45 will be the perfect firearm. Has the kick and power of the 1911, the features of the XD design, and has a high capacity.*


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## powernoodle (May 15, 2006)

I understand your desire not to go with a Glock. To each his own. Just leaves more for Powernoodle (I own 11 of 'em :nana: ).

But they do refute the argument (in my highly biased opinion) that a more money equals more reliability. I've found my Glocks to be as reliable as reliable gets. New ones generally are $500 where I live, and nice used ones are under $350. 

Just giving my props to the G man. 

Since Glocks aren't your bag, consider also used Beretta 96. Its a little big for concealed carry, tho, if you are into that. Refurbed Sigs are also sweet. I have a refurbished P220 thats a solid performer.

For giggles:





_Here's a well-worn Glock 17 (18 rounds) sporting a G34 barrel. _ 

cheers


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## VWTim (May 15, 2006)

What about a trade in 226 Sig from CDNN if they have any left? They occationally have some in 40 too. Ruger P-series are very reliable, big ugly guns. Also Rock Island imports a double stack 1911.


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## StoneDog (May 15, 2006)

A buddy of mine picked up a refurb P226 in 9mm. It was a great deal and I do have a soft spot for Sigs. I'm thinking XD .45 won't be on the used market for a while, but hold the phone. What's this Rock Island thing? Looks like their single stack model is available for under $400. What does the doubl stack model go for (at gun shows, etc)?

Jon


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## VWTim (May 15, 2006)

StoneDog said:


> A buddy of mine picked up a refurb P226 in 9mm. It was a great deal and I do have a soft spot for Sigs. I'm thinking XD .45 won't be on the used market for a while, but hold the phone. What's this Rock Island thing? Looks like their single stack model is available for under $400. What does the doubl stack model go for (at gun shows, etc)?
> 
> Jon



Rock Island Armory (RIA) is a company that's selling budget 1911's. Milspec style guns, with no hastle lifetime warrantee's and they're very reliable. I have a couple thousand thru mine without any issues, and I paid $309 out the door brand new. High Cap RIA's seem to be going for $400ish when you can find them.


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## Lee1959 (May 15, 2006)

I own a few .45's most of them 1911 styles, if not all Colts, and I also own an EAA Witness Compact Polymer .45 based upon the Cz design. I like it very well, and have probably in the past two years carried it and ran more rounds through it, just to see how well it shoots and holds up, than I have any of my other .45s. I would not hesitate to buy another one. It is actually the softest shooting .45 I have shot, and I like its DA, with cocked and locked ability. 

I would also go with a Ruger, without hesitation.


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## MScottz (May 15, 2006)

I would go with 7 rounds of .45 over 14 of 9mm anyday. I would go for a Springfield Armory GI series 1911. They run about $400 new. A very accurate reliable gun, the best in that price range in my opinion.


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## ACMarina (May 15, 2006)

I'll take one perfectly placed .22 over a .50 that doesn't hit what I need it to.. if you're hitting what you should be hitting it doesn't really matter what caliber you're using. Most important thing is that you hit what you need to hit, be it with a .45 or a 9mm (or a pellet gun, for that matter)..


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (May 15, 2006)

I'm also of the opinion that a small caliber HIT beats a big loud MISS...

Before it was Springfield XD it was a no name in 9mm that was nice! I bet I'd like an XD .45 a lot!

But my next gun purchase, SOMEDAY, will be a Glock 19 I think. As I feel a properly placed 9MM WILL do the job.


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## bfg9000 (May 16, 2006)

I've shot the XD-45, and much prefer the small .40 XDs because the grip is much less blocky.

The grip safety makes it safer to carry without a holster than the Glock 30, which is a _very_ nice shooting .45.


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## StoneDog (May 16, 2006)

It looks like both RIA and Springfield have hi-cap 13 rnd "GI" models (or equivalent) that should come in around the $400 mark. Tracking them down might not be easy, but I'm in no big hurry. These two are at the top of my list.

A refurb P226 in .40 and previously issued Beretta 96 are also on the list now. If I could find a FANTASTIC deal on a Glock 20 or 21 I _might _consider it. 

I won't get into the whole 9mm vs 45 debate but I will agree that if you can't double-tap reliably with a pistol you shouldn't rely on it for defense. Maybe it's me, but I've never had a problem shooting a 1911 model .45, my smaller Sig P239 in .40 or any 9mm so I'm not too concerned about multiple shot placement. Now, a Ruger SP-101 with hot .357 Mag, well, that's another story. 

The most accurate gun I ever owned was a little Bersa Thunder .380. I carried it when I was in college until I could afford a bigger pistol, but I wouldn't feel unarmed if I were still carrying it today.

Anyway, thanks for your help guys. Hopefully the thread will continue, but I think I have a much better idea of what I should look for.

Jon


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## Malpaso (May 16, 2006)

I would check the reviews on the 96. The Border Patrol had them and hated them. Big difference between the 92 and the 96.


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## Geologist (May 16, 2006)

What about Taurus? I never owned any - but they always seemed to be less expensive and offered a good selection.

btw - I have had a TEC-9 for about 15-20 years - really fun gun. I wouldn't want to bet my life on it though!


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## Jumpmaster (May 16, 2006)

Taurus = ripoff of Beretta. 

I haven't shot one, but they are -- umm -- remarkably similar to the Beretta.

Tec-9...hehe....boom...boom...click...click.....click...#$%&*....click... 

Had a Tec-22 once and that was the biggest POS weapon I've ever had!

JM-99


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## Lee1959 (May 16, 2006)

I have a Kel-Tec PT3AT (.380) that I carry a lot when other pistols are just not easily or comfortably carried. I run Magsafes and Glassers in it and I feel comfortable with it. Having ran several thousand rounds thru it in the past year, it has not failed to feed or fire one time. 

Actually having a pistol at ALL times, beats not carrying that .45 when it is not comfortable, and tell me there have NOT been times when you have left your pistol home or in the car because it could not be concealed well enough, or comfortably enough, not even at the last wedding or formal dinner when you were in wearing that expensive suit or tux?


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## StoneDog (May 16, 2006)

*Lee1959 -* stop it  I have myself convinced I need a big hi-cap .40 or .45. That role could easily be filled by what I currently have, but I don't have an ultra concealable pistol (P239 is small but not coat-pocket small). Another Bersa .380 would be just the ticket. No, no, a big .45 is what I need. 

Jon


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## Lee1959 (May 16, 2006)

Jon that is exactly why I went with the PT3AT. I had the big CCW or carry pistol, and hunting revolvers very well taken care of but I found that even my Makarov was a bit on the large side to conceal comfortably, or unobtrusively some times when I went out. It does not mean I love my .45s any less or believe in them any less, or my Mak (it is SUCH a great little shooter), it simply means that there was a need I found that they could not always fill, that I felt needed filling better than my knife could do.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (May 17, 2006)

I really like my Makarov too. But if I were to have a CHL it's still a bit Porky to hide on my person. 

I'd almost have to have a little .32 if I were to. As I wear pants that fit, and a tucked shirt 90% of the time. I also have a spare tire which precludes a Pager Pal hoster.

My all time fave gun to shoot is a .45ACP 1911....


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## innerlight (May 17, 2006)

Beretta 9000s 
10 rounds in .40
Never owned one, shot one once. Liked it.
http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/beretta.htm


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## powernoodle (May 17, 2006)

Just to add to what I wrote above, about 70% of the time I'm carrying a Kahr PM9 in my right front pocket. Its only 7 rounds of 9mm (.40 is also available), but it so easy to carry. And when you walk into a Stop and Rob quicky mart, you can have your hand on the gun and no one knows the difference. It also won't peak out from under your shirt like a IWB holster can, and you dont have to cover it up when you bend over. Its no hi-cap (standard capacity) gun, tho.






_Kahr PM9._ 





_L-r: Glock 26, Kel-tec 9mm, Kahr PM9._ 

cheers


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## not2bright (May 17, 2006)

I know this is probably useless info for StoneDog, but I am a recently converted Glock owner.

I shot/reviewed/compared the Springfield XD, Beretta, Sig (big money), and HK (bigger money) before deciding on the G19 and G26.

I have a Kimber Stainless Gold Match II .45, Ruger Target Super Blackhawk .44Mag, Ruger Stainless Mark II Target, and a few other handguns. The Kimber is a nice shooting gun, but I have found myself shooting the Glock 19 and 26 much more frequently. They are simple to maintain, shoot well, nearly indestructible, and cheap to shoot.

Since I take Glocks to the range far more often, I feel more comfortable with them. Don't get me wrong the Kimber is more accurate in my hands than either Glock, but I doubt I would ever have it near me should a situation develop where it was needed. The Glocks are a go anywhere, tough as nails, inexpensive, as reliable as it gets weapon.

In addition the Glocks accept the 33rd mags (from the G18) and that these mags are also used by my Kel-Tec Sub2000, which is another fun to shoot gun.


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## Jumpmaster (May 17, 2006)

PM sent to Stonedog Re: Glocks and reliability.

JM-99


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## StoneDog (May 17, 2006)

Somehow this thread has drifted from a big semi-auto to pocket guns... A big .45 or .40 would be more fun, but would a pocket gun be more useful? That's a something I need to think about.

I carry my P239 in a little IWB holster no problem, even when wearing khaki shorts and a tee-shirt. Other than my perspiration corroding the decocker lever, I've never had any problems. I don't think it prints, although I am cautious of bending and stretching.

The only time I'd like something smaller is when I'm more heavily dressed, actually, because my shirt is usually tucked in and I have to rely on a jacket pocket. That little Kahr has me drooling - the PM9 is what, 12 ounces w/o magazine?! Any idea what a used one might go for?


Jon


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## powernoodle (May 17, 2006)

I did a search a gunbroker.com and didn't see any used PM9s. New ones are upward of $500.

Start throwing a little money in a cookie jar from time to time, and soon you'll have one.

Edited: see my PM9 with other EDC stuff here at post #326.

cheers


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## cobra-ak (May 17, 2006)

I have been looking at the Taurus 24/7 about $300 bucks, 9mm 17+1 capacity, if anyone has one chime in on reliabilty.


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## StoneDog (May 17, 2006)

powernoodle said:


> Edited: see my PM9 with other EDC stuff here at post #326.
> 
> cheers


 
Nice!!! 

How is the recoil on that PM9? I'm wondering how nasty the little PM40 would be. Maybe the heavier all-steel MK40 would be more mangeable, and I'd have a common caliber w/ my Sig.

Jon


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## powernoodle (May 17, 2006)

Recoil on the PM9 is no biggy. Its a little snappy but nothing to be concerned about. Here is a little review I did a couple of years ago. I'm guessing that the recoil on a PM40 might be a little more than I'd want to deal with.

cheers!


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