# I see "made in China" everywhere..



## SantaClawz (Oct 1, 2010)

Ever since I discovered this forum and discovered all the high end flashlight manufacturers, I was surprised to see so many are actually from China (Fenix, Sunwayman, Nitecore, Jetbeam and a load of other manufacturers). I know from personal experience when it comes to most other products, if it's made in China, it's usually cheaply made products, and many people would agree. Are Chinese flashlights good quality? I am just having a hard time (from personal experience and common knowledge) connecting things such as high quality product with a "made in china" sticker.


----------



## Monocrom (Oct 1, 2010)

There are still plenty of lights made in China that are cheap junk. 

Individual brands are the way to go. I have several Fenix lights that have served me well. Especially my LD05 model. My only titanium light is a Quark Mini CR123 model. Very happy with it. The iTP EOS A3 is the best overall AAA keychain light currently out there. It's all about brand reputation. Some choose to go for it, but others don't. DX for example mainly sells cheap junk. The prices are attractive. But usually we see posts from new members about how their DX lights crapped out on them. It happens all the time. Once in awhile you get a DX light that is good. But that's not too common.

I love my SureFires, and am currently up to 23. I love quality lights. And that's what my American-made SureFires are. But there are indeed some very well made lights coming out of China. But stick with brands that have established reputations.


----------



## jtblue (Oct 1, 2010)

As with most manufactured products, a product can only be of good quality with sufficient labour, materials, tools and Quality Control (QC). Of those 4 things China can pretty much be guaranteed to have sufficient Labour, materials and Tools, with QC being the main variable.

Flashligh companies which I believe have the magic "4's" are (I think CPFers in general will agree with me) Fenix, Nitecore, 4Sevens, Zebralight etc.

P.S. Most "high end" things are made in china or any other nation which boasts relatively low costs of production (your fully sick LCD TV was probably made in China, I know mine was, lol).

Jeremy.


----------



## jellydonut (Oct 1, 2010)

I prefer buying stuff made in Western countries but I am tempted to try stuff like the Sunwaysomethingwhatsitsfaces and the Jetbeams. I'm attracted to selector rings and not a lot of manufacturers do them.


----------



## jamesmtl514 (Oct 1, 2010)

I avoid Made in China products as much as I can.
This forum and it's admins are VERY pro China and it's hard to say anything negative without being criticized or worse.

That being said, I will happily pay twice as much for a similar product that was made in N.A. or Europe over any third world country.

I have a dozen or so Surefire lights and they are all absolutely fantastic.
I have 1 M.I.C. Light, (glo-tube) and it's junk.

Even among the 'reputable' M.I.C. manufacturers here there are countless disappointed customers and DOA lights.


----------



## TX180SX (Oct 1, 2010)

This is an interesting topic for me....i'm new here, but I'm always in favor of buying american made/designed products. 

So Nitecore is M.I.C.? i'm still doing research here but is Mag & Surefire the main U.S. made lights? I'm hoping to add a few Surefire's to the collection but the prices make me think twice.


----------



## Belstaff1464 (Oct 1, 2010)

TX180SX said:


> is Mag & Surefire the main U.S. made lights?


 

Add HDS lights, Arc, and Peak to your Made in U.S. list


----------



## TX180SX (Oct 1, 2010)

Belstaff1464 said:


> Add HDS lights, Arc, and Peak to your Made in U.S. list


 

got it thanks! now i have something to research over the weekend.


----------



## Belstaff1464 (Oct 1, 2010)

Glad to be of service. I recommend HDS lights.....especially the Clicky http://www.hdslights.com/?id=Home


And :welcome:


----------



## PoliceScannerMan (Oct 1, 2010)

Ra/HDS. Malkoff. Surefire. McGizmo. Peak. 

All great, all USA made, but may contain Asian electronics/emitters. 

47's is the only China lights I buy. :thumbsup:


----------



## carrot (Oct 1, 2010)

Belstaff1464 said:


> Add HDS lights, Arc, and Peak to your Made in U.S. list


I find it funny that all three of these are based in Arizona. What is it about Arizona?


----------



## Belstaff1464 (Oct 1, 2010)

carrot said:


> I find it funny that all three of these are based in Arizona. What is it about Arizona?


 

They must get 18hours of darkness every day there ??? It's the only possible explanation !!!


----------



## KentS (Oct 1, 2010)

All my modified lights are mainly made with chinese parts (hosts, emitters, drivers, batteries etc) but I make them myself in my home so i guess they are 'Made in Sweden'


----------



## Sarlix (Oct 1, 2010)

I can't seem to find it now but someone posted a link to an article a while back, it was about some Russian dude who went to the Fenix production factory in China and got shown around. It seemed to me that quality control was a high priority for Fenix. 

From my own experience with my one fenix torch (P1D) quality is very good. Its been strapped to my bag for 2 years solid, it's been through all weather and I have a bad habit of just tossing my bag on the ground, so it's sustained some knocks, and it's never failed me yet. 

So yeah, I would say China is capable of high quality products. I guess it's the company paying for the manufacturing who chooses the quality and if they want to pay for it.


----------



## KentS (Oct 1, 2010)

My Fenix P3D has seen some serious action, being dropped onto paved roads from my bike at high speed etc. Still works flawless. I had an issue with my Fenix LD01-driver but this was resolved by 4sevens without any hassle. All in all Fenix strikes me as very high quality products. Then again I do not yet own a SureFire to compare with.


----------



## Tally-ho (Oct 1, 2010)

"Made in China" is everywhere because now it is where all "our" factories were gone.
Actually China is investing massively in basic research. Guess what is going to happen in 10 years ?




KentS said:


> All my modified lights are mainly made with chinese parts (hosts, emitters, drivers, batteries etc) but I make them myself in my home so i guess they are 'Made in Sweden'


Nope, "Made in Sweden from Imported Parts" or "Assembled is Sweden". :devil:


----------



## smokey616 (Oct 1, 2010)

I thought equaling 'Made in China' with 'Low Quality' was a thing of the past. These days China is where it's at, not just in Flashlights, but in electronics in general. In fact I think pretty soon they'll have cornered the market in mass produced electric vehicles as well.


----------



## TX180SX (Oct 1, 2010)

Belstaff1464 said:


> Glad to be of service. I recommend HDS lights.....especially the Clicky http://www.hdslights.com/?id=Home
> 
> 
> And :welcome:


 


Thanks Bellstaff, I now have my eye on an Executive.....


----------



## jamesmtl514 (Oct 1, 2010)

TX180SX said:


> This is an interesting topic for me....i'm new here, but I'm always in favor of buying american made/designed products.
> 
> So Nitecore is M.I.C.? i'm still doing research here but is Mag & Surefire the main U.S. made lights? I'm hoping to add a few Surefire's to the collection but the prices make me think twice.


Don't hesitate. 
The prices are higher, sure, but you're getting quality, supporting local business and you get a lifetime guarantee. 
Also it just works, the first time, every time.


----------



## Nokoff (Oct 1, 2010)

China...hmmm, heard they make a quality nokoff


----------



## amigafan2003 (Oct 1, 2010)

> That being said, I will happily pay twice as much for a similar product that was made in N.A. or Europe over any third world country.


 
China is hardly a third world country.

I'll happily buy products from China after making sure I've done some research into the quality of the company/product - just in the same way I'd do some research into a product that was made in the USA/UK/Europe. Just because a product has come from the USA/UK/Europe doesn't mean it's automatically of high quality. I mean, look at American manufactured cars - hardly the epitome of quality/technology are they?

Very happy to buy products produced by MG, 4sevens, Fenix etc.


----------



## Roger999 (Oct 1, 2010)

Anyone remember when Japanese products were considered inferior and crap? Look at the opinions on Japanese products now.

IMO some Chinese products are starting to improve with certain manufacturers improving the quality control, eg Spyderco's knives with their Byrd line and the Tenacious, Fenix and Quark flashlights are of pretty decent quality as well.


----------



## black_ice_pc (Oct 1, 2010)

I have a Quark 123^2 Turbo and love it. The quality is great. That said, I'd rather have my lights U.S. made, simply because I'd rather support our country vs. theirs. Quality is typically higher here, too.


----------



## mossyoak (Oct 1, 2010)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> Ra/HDS. Malkoff. Surefire. McGizmo. Peak.
> 
> All great, all USA made, but may contain Asian electronics/emitters.
> 
> 47's is the only China lights I buy. :thumbsup:



Me to, i think of 47's more "Made in Atlanta" than anything


----------



## etc (Oct 1, 2010)

double , delete.


----------



## etc (Oct 1, 2010)

jamesmtl514 said:


> I avoid Made in China products as much as I can.
> This forum and it's admins are VERY pro China and it's hard to say anything negative without being criticized or worse.
> 
> That being said, I will happily pay twice as much for a similar product that was made in N.A. or Europe over any third world country.
> ...



+1.

I have zero interest in consumer grade stuff from overseas, I try to go for custom made stuff domestically. My Surefire lites and clones just keep on going, never a failure due to over-engineering. 

The problem with 'made in China' lites is that their price point is just too expensive for what you get, IMO. They would be a bargain for 10 bucks. Yes, they are loaded with features but QC is not always the best and I am not sure they can endure year after year. 

These days, 'made in China' is not equal to "cheap" at all! The price delta between custom made or Surefire stuff here and 'tactical' lites from over there is shrinking by the minute. I would buy lites from over there if they were a lot cheaper. 60-70 FRNs for a 2xAA lite is just an utterly crazy price. I had a few, they failed me on a regular basis. *Not worth it*! I would rather pay just a little more and get a domestic lite. 

Especially considering that these factories probably make one lite for 5 FRNs each.. or not much more than that. The alum tube is very cheap and fast to make, Surefire boasts how it takes them 20 seconds to make a 6P body, it has to be even cheaper over there. The LED is not that expensive, plus you have labor. The consumer price happens due to distribution, storage, taxes, and all the usual business expenses which are considerable. But I haven't bought any in years. Even used one are too much FRNs in my opinion. Ten bucks is all they are worth to me. Vote with your wallet.


----------



## SureAddicted (Oct 1, 2010)

etc said:


> The problem with 'made in China' lites is that their price point is just too expensive for what you get, IMO. They would be a bargain for 10 bucks. Yes, they are loaded with features but QC is not always the best and I am not sure they can endure year after year.



Well, your wrong. Ever heard of iTP, very reasonable priced and hoards of CPF'ers like them. Most of the lights that come out of china are reasonably priced for what you get.
With regards to QC, yeah there are some companies that have shody QC in china, there are also companies who have fantastic QC in china. 
Turning this into a China vs SureFire thread is not smart, nor intelligent.


----------



## Connor (Oct 1, 2010)

SantaClawz said:


> Are Chinese flashlights good quality? I am just having a hard time (from personal experience and common knowledge) connecting things such as high quality product with a "made in china" sticker.



Well, you hardly see a "Made in Canada", "Made in the USA" or "Made in Germany" sticker because most/all of us are not willing to work for $5 a day. 

This doesn't mean flashlights produced in China are bad quality, this all depends on the research&development and quality assurance the company producing them is willing to pay on top of that measly loan. 
"Made in China" by itself doesn't say anything at all about the products quality, just as "Made in the USA/Germany/whatever" doesn't mean it's automatically superior.


----------



## hurricane (Oct 1, 2010)

SantaClawz said:


> Ever since I discovered this forum and discovered all the high end flashlight manufacturers, I was surprised to see so many are actually from China (Fenix, Sunwayman, Nitecore, Jetbeam and a load of other manufacturers). I know from personal experience when it comes to most other products, if it's made in China, it's usually cheaply made products, and many people would agree. Are Chinese flashlights good quality? I am just having a hard time (from personal experience and common knowledge) connecting things such as high quality product with a "made in china" sticker.



I hear ya brotha ... while some stuff from China is of excellent quality, I avoid what I can. It has become increasingly more difficult to buy from other countries. This move to overseas manufacturing is in large part responsible for the decline of the US economy - boy was that ever a big mistake. One of the things beyond quality that drives me CRAZY is how the Chinese shamelessly rip-off the intellectual property of others - apparently there are no copyright laws in China - boo. Innovators and companies that hold the rights to a certain product literally lose 100s billions per year to rip-off products. Anyway ...

Luckily, there are plenty of USA made [sorry none that I know of from Canada], lights. A few products from Surefire or HDS would keep you super happy for years to come and their quality is exceptional.


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Oct 1, 2010)

You guys are doing a great job at keeping this thread civil. :thumbsup:

Bill


----------



## tandem (Oct 1, 2010)

smokey616 said:


> I thought equaling 'Made in China' with 'Low Quality' was a thing of the past.



Sadly, no. Tarring an entire country and over a billion people with the same brush is a convenient way to slur a people but never going to be accurate. 

China is a big place, with companies whose conduct is all over the map, not unlike the situation here in North America. Buying Canadian or American is certainly no guarantee of quality in any sense of the word. I can introduce you to some home builders you absolutely do not want to buy a house from, business people whose ethics aren't even worthy of being called amoral, and I'm sure we can all think of a car model or two which never deserved to roll off the production line in Windsor or Detroit.

Some of us are probably old enough to remember the same was said of Japan in the 60's and 70's -- "eww, cheap Japanese junk!" Fear of a rising industrial Japan led to all sorts of slurs being hurled at the Japanese and in many cases both North American unionists and business leaders were behind the name calling, and there is no doubt the American auto industry was a leading player in this movement. 

Regardless of what type of product it was, back then if it had a made in Japan sticker on it it was deemed to be cheap. Buy American campaigns were all the rage.

So what happened? American auto makers kept on making overly large vehicles despite the 70's oil crisis -- as soon as the memory of that event was months old, it was back to business as usual. Meanwhile Japanese makers continued to refine their designs and quality and some would argue they did that at a pace much faster than other global auto companies. Bear in mind that Japan imports virtually 100% of its petroleum - they have always been motivated to improve on the status quo even if only for their own domestic market.

The anti-Japanese product campaigns eventually fizzled out. No doubt the real estate blow up in Japan a couple decades ago helped all realize that they were prone to the same bad judgement calls we've seen happen here at home repeatedly. The Japanese were industrious but not super-beings after all. Still, trade battles do arise there and with China and other countries and will continue to do so. Today Sony isn't reviled but its products are sought after. Japanese electronics are seen as benchmarks. I know in my neck of the woods the venerable Datsun 510 in the 70's and early 80's was a prized possession by teenagers and adults alike. Nissan, Toyota and Mazda are seen as quality makers, not withstanding Toyota's design issues we've seen highlighted on the evening news over the past year. We ought not forget exploding Ford Pintos and other lemons Detroit has let slip through its fingers.

Save a global energy crisis that makes it too expensive to ship products overseas, there is no turning back from globalized trade. You can largely thank Nixon for opening up relations with China -- that sparked an inexorable march towards much more globalized trade as once China was "in" the global community, and it most assuredly is, the tide could not be stopped.

I can find no reason to fault a foreign company who is working hard at making it in this global world just because they are making products which could be made here at home. I used to own part of a domestic manufacturing company that made computer accessories which, like many such items, eventually got knocked off and produced off-shore using labour that was many times less expensive than ours. We competed for years on quality and advanced designs, and on special order customizations, but eventually the off-shore producers were able to catch up on the first two fronts, as you'd expect, and doing custom one-offs wasn't a business large enough to keep our factory full of seamstresses and designers busy and profitable. 

Cheaper labour markets (and slacker environmental and human protections) making it possible to undercut domestic makers could be fought against using trade barriers -- that was the way of the world for some time -- but that's a very complicated discussion and one difficult to have in a world where some regions have things we desperately want. You can't easily cherry pick on a global basis unless you only plan on taking, not trading. Trade wars fought with real guns clearly are not sustainable.

Like many I'm concerned about environmental and human rights issues that corporations encounter or generate, but that is not strictly a foreign problem. There are no lack of North American businesses who treat their employees poorly and environmental awareness in domestic affairs has really only been entrenched in our political and business circles for a few decades here. China and other rapidly developing nations is/has learning/learned that doing right on both counts is good for business, good for trade, good for their own people and thus for their society. Sure I'd love to see them embrace a better form of governance (ours is not perfect either) and adopt human rights and environmental protections more rapidly. Chances are that now they are on this conveyor belt to modernism they will adopt all these measures far more rapidly than we can imagine today. It is just good business, and after all, they are human beings too and we all have the same basic needs.

My bottom line: I am happy to buy Fenix lights without reservation because it looks like a quality business which appears to treat their employees properly. The product enjoys an earned reputation for consistent quality. These are signs that the company is here for the long run and no doubt there are other makers in many countries that have a similar bright outlook. Regardless of location if I learned that any maker treated its employees poorly, I would not hesitate to turn my spending dollars elsewhere.


----------



## netblues (Oct 1, 2010)

Fenix lights are often sold in Retail Shops accross Europe as made in USA...


----------



## hurricane (Oct 1, 2010)

Great post Tandem!


----------



## etc (Oct 1, 2010)

tandem said:


> Sadly, no. Tarring an entire country and over a billion people with the same brush is a convenient way to slur a people but never going to be accurate.



Hm, strawman argument. Nobody ever said that. 

It's not China's fault at all. The American co's move the stuff over there and give them the specs to manufacture to and the machinery. And they do what the are told 100%. What's the problem? Whose fault is that? The stuff works as designed. Planned obsolescence, consumer stuff that needs to be replaced every 12-16 months. I've had it with breaking particle board furniture, alarm clocks, clothing, backpacks, the stuff *does not last*. They constantly ship these massive boats with containers full of that (insert your favorite vulgar word here).
Neither do flashlights. I've had multiple failures from a well known importer here. Not gonna get into a fight over stuff though. 

At the risk of veering OT here, it's much bigger than flashlights. It encompasses the whole range of consumer goods from toasters to particle board beds. The stuff is just not built to last. The selling point of Chinese stuff was, and probably still is solely price. It was cheap. 5-10 years ago, Chinese flashlights were cheap. People are price shoppers. That's how Japanese got here and that's how Chinese got here. Notice how Japanese is no longer cheap and hasn't been for decades? That's the fate of Chinese stuff, too. 

It's not the Chinese stuff that bothers me but the price point. 

When I joined CPF some years ago, the lite that started it all for me was a StreamLight. It sold for 19.99, a 2xAA pocket model, costing just a little more than incan MiniMag that it replaced. I liked it. It was brighter and more reliable and lasted much longer. Good bang per buck. Considering more lumens and better runtime and that fact that you did not have to replaced the incan bulb every other day, it was actually *cheaper* than MiniMag. I remember that well. That was fine and I chose it versus expensive aforementioned domestic brands. 

Problem is, these imports have risen in price enormously. If you want any kind of quality at all, you have to drop close to 100 FRNs these days. If I am going to do that, I will do cost/benefit analysis and decide to get something even better, made domestically, for marginally more.
Consider price vs. value. These days, nice 'tactical' Chinese lites are marginally cheaper than premium domestic brands. Talk about sticker shock. 

The era of cheap consumer goods from China is coming to an end. Enjoyed it while it lasted.


----------



## Kestrel (Oct 1, 2010)

SantaClawz said:


> I see "made in China" everywhere..


That's interesting, I seldom see that anywhere. I guess I just shop at different places ... :shrug:


----------



## SureAddicted (Oct 1, 2010)

> Sadly, no. Tarring an entire country and over a billion people with the same brush is a convenient way to slur a people but never going to be accurate.





etc said:


> Hm, strawman argument. Nobody ever said that.
> 
> At the risk of veering OT here, it's much bigger than flashlights. It encompasses the whole range of consumer goods from toasters to particle board beds. The stuff is just not built to last.


----------



## Ilikeshinythings (Oct 1, 2010)

That title is one of the main reasons I haven't been buying a lot of lights lately. I want a good made-in-America by an American manufacturer and designer light and I would pay a premium for one, and that's not for a lack of quality in a lot of the Chinese made lights.


----------



## Monocrom (Oct 1, 2010)

jamesmtl514 said:


> This forum and it's admins are VERY pro China and it's hard to say anything negative without being criticized or worse.


 
Greta is often accussed by some as being VERY pro SureFire and thus, pro American. If you have a legit criticism regarding any company or product, the admins. and moderators are not going to muzzle you. (I can tell you that from experience.) Never seen a single individual get banned for criticising a specific company with a well thought out and presented arguement.


----------



## souptree (Oct 1, 2010)

200+ lights here.... all made in the USA. YMMV, but I am happy that flashlights are one area where there is NO reason to compromise in this (important, to me) area. I just wish there were American made LEDs....


----------



## jasonck08 (Oct 1, 2010)

I find that the majority of lights these day (the machining anyways) is done on a CNC machine. Since things are made by machine, as long as the materials used are quality, and the light design was programmed correctly the quality shouldn't make that much of a difference where it was made. 

Quality control is quite important, and you will see the best quality control from companies that proudly display their name on their products, rather than the made in China no name lights or some of the Ultra Fire lights that could have been made by 1 of 20 different Chinese companies.

I have a few lights that are made in China that I'd consider to be higher quality then my SureFire 6p.


----------



## tandem (Oct 1, 2010)

etc said:


> At the risk of veering OT here, it's much bigger than flashlights. It encompasses the whole range of consumer goods from toasters to *particle board beds*. The stuff is just not built to last.



I disagree that I made a straw man argument and you do seem to support my generalization by using sweeping terms like "all encompassing" and "the stuff is just not built to last". I'd meant to compare China today to Japan in the 70's. Few people turn their noses down at Japanese electronics these days and I suspect China through industrious work will get to about the same position as Japan is today within the next couple of decades. 

The big difference between the two countries from what I can see is that there will be much more potential for social upheaval in China as the agrarian component of its society is so much bigger proportionately than was the case in Japan, so wealth disparity will be much more evident as the more prosperous industrial and technological segments of the workforce zoom ahead of their farming counterparts even though the former cannot live without the latter.

Oh, I highlighted particle board beds because in this burg going back decades, before China became so dominant, we saw most of the cheap furniture come out of Sweden (and Portugal and Spain and ...) all with a bright yellow and blue Ikea logo on the boxes. Ikea built it, "we" bought it. Maybe some furniture folks complained but most consumers did not.



> It's not China's fault at all. The American co's move the stuff over there and give them the specs to manufacture to and the machinery. And they do what the are told 100%.



There I agree with you 100%. They make what we ask them to make, or we indicate we will buy 2*X at Y/2 price point. Quantity over quality is how we've defined the last generation or two in many of the things we purchase (including some of our foodstuffs such as meat) and even in different aspects of our lives.

If a business owner on this or the other side of the Pacific wants to produce a quality product, they can. On either side of the ocean you can find good quality materials and staff who will care about the products they make. The only question is whether end consumers will pay the fair price or not. Ultimately the price delta between the countries will narrow - that has already happened in many different areas, forcing production once from Japan to Taiwan to China to South Korea to whatever jurisdiction was willing to be the most mercenary with its domestic and foreign trade policies. Eventually the game of cheapest production country or zone will end like musical chairs.


----------



## easilyled (Oct 1, 2010)

I'm wondering how the Olight SR90 squares up with this general attitude that "made in China" flashlights are automatically cheap knock-offs.

Olight took a huge risk with being the very first mass-manufacturer to truly fully exploit the capabilities of the SST-90 and encroach into HID territory for throw and overall output. 

I am still amazed when I light up mine. I consider it to be an extremely well thought out and high quality product and it is also a market leader for high-power led-lights.


----------



## KiwiMark (Oct 1, 2010)

SantaClawz said:


> I know from personal experience when it comes to most other products, if it's made in China, it's usually cheaply made products, and many people would agree.



There definitely are a lot of cheaply made products including flashlights made in China. However there are also lots of good quality products including flashlights that are made in China. Don't make the mistake of thinking that because something is made in China then it MUST be cheaply made. There are lots of quality brands coming out of China, but with good quality comes a higher price - it may be possible to make a working flashlight that can sell for $5, but better materials & good quality control will push the price up much higher than that. There is a huge difference between an Ultrafire light & a Fenix light - just because both are made in China it doesn't mean they are the same quality.

As far as sticking with made in the USA goes - I have plenty of stuff made in the USA (Leatherman, Maglite, Surefire, KA-BAR, ESEE, etc) and I have plenty of stuff made elsewhere. I don't live in the USA so buying stuff made there has nothing to do with supporting local business for me - I just buy products that I think are worth having.

My knives are made in: USA, China, Taiwan, Japan, France, Sweden & Nepal. My lights are made in: USA or China - I don't think any that I have are made in any other countries. It seems with lights most are made in China apart from the USA brands that make a point of keeping the manufacturing in the USA.

My good quality lights that were made in China include these brands: Fenix, Jetbeam, Olight, Quark, ITP, Liteflux, Zebralight & Nitecore.
From the USA I think it is only 1 Surefire & a bunch of Maglites.

Bottom line:
In China they make cheap junk and good quality and everything in between. When buying the country of manufacturer isn't the only thing to consider.


----------



## SantaClawz (Oct 1, 2010)

delete


----------



## LotusDarkrose (Oct 1, 2010)

I respect a company with well-made lights, and the customer service skills to fix problems that arise, and improve on products. A company that listens to what consumers want and tries their hardest to cater to their needs.

I don't care where my flashlights are made, as long as the above is met.


----------



## tandem (Oct 1, 2010)

etc said:


> Problem is, these imports have risen in price enormously. If you want any kind of quality at all, you have to drop close to 100 FRNs these days. If I am going to do that, I will do cost/benefit analysis and decide to get something even better, made domestically, for marginally more. Consider price vs. value.



I'm finding that sometimes I can't find an off the shelf domestic product that meets my requirements at any *fair* price. It may be that some of my requirements are a little bit ahead of their time, although there are vendors with decent reputation that make products I'm willing to buy. 

A vendor known for producing a quality horse and buggy is of no use to me if I want to buy a quality bicycle. 

I would buy a fairly priced domestically produced multi-stage light of high quality that put out a decent beam, upwards of 130 - 200 lumen OTF output with nicely regulated runtime on all output levels, delivering max output of at least an hour, minimum two hours for a "high" output value down say 30-70 lumens. The light must achieve this driven by a single AA NiMH cell and must also perform decently if at somewhat reduced specs on an alkaline AA. Lights that meet this criteria are likely to become more common place in the near future but certainly some exist today and the state of the art is being expanded every quarter, largely it seems by Chinese companies. Bravo to them.

I can buy a light which meets most or all of the features listed "off the shelf" from a bricks and mortar business in my city or from on-line dealers with same day shipping, but the product will almost certainly be produced in China and definitely won't say Surefire or Inforce or HDS on it. 

I can't buy this light at any price from a domestic production maker like Pelican, Streamlight, or Surefire. Surefire's E2L "Sportsman" is the only AA light they market and is a country mile from hitting the mark (2xAA, 80 lumen output, unrealistic runtimes published, $165 list). Streamlight appears to have nothing close either. I can't buy such a light from Pelican (own a nice submersible pelican 4xaa though). I can't even buy such a light from a more specialized vendor like HDS - I admire their products but they offer no AA lights to my knowledge. Maybe a Malkoff 2xAA "little twisty" could meet some of the criteria except of course it can't be driven off a single AA. Still I'm interested in the beam profile, output and runtime of a 2AA configuration although that information isn't readily available on their site.

Many of the domestic production and more custom solution oriented companies are focussed on producing lights for cell formats and/or chemistries that I have very little interest in. 

Some light companies do appear to be putting their engineering talent into getting the most out of the lowly AA cell and that seems practical and smart to me regardless of where they are located. Delivering great light from such a common power source strikes me as an achievement worth noting and is an aspect of quality that is as important as the physical build, at least to some product buyers.


----------



## Belstaff1464 (Oct 1, 2010)

LotusDarkrose said:


> I respect a company with well-made lights, and the customer service skills to fix problems that arise, and improve on products. A company that listens to what consumers want and tries their hardest to cater to their needs.
> 
> I don't care where my flashlights are made, as long as the above is met.



+1



tandem said:


> I would buy a fairly priced domestically produced multi-stage light of high quality that put out a decent beam, upwards of 130 - 200 lumen OTF output with nicely regulated runtime on all output levels, delivering max output of at least an hour, minimum two hours for a "high" output value down say 30-70 lumens. The light must achieve this driven by a single AA NiMH cell and must also perform decently if at somewhat reduced specs on an alkaline AA. Lights that meet this criteria are likely to become more common place in the near future but certainly some exist today and the state of the art is being expanded every quarter, largely it seems by Chinese companies. Bravo to them.
> 
> I can buy a light which meets most or all of the features listed "off the shelf" from a bricks and mortar business in my city or from on-line dealers with same day shipping, but the product will almost certainly be produced in China and definitely won't say Surefire or Inforce or HDS on it.
> 
> ...




FYI - HDS is developing a 2 x AA battery compartment for the venerable Clicky which is due to be released soon.


----------



## wacbzz (Oct 1, 2010)

Belstaff1464 said:


> FYI - HDS is developing a 2 x AA battery compartment for the venerable Clicky which is due to be released soon.



I'm going to be purchasing one myself (the 2xAA tube) to go with my clicky, but let's be honest here - many, if not most, will not be able to nor will they want to spend over $200 for a 2xAA light. 

Here's an example; My wife works in a high end (and dimly lit) steakhouse. She has *for the last seven years* carried the same black mini maglite (2xAA) to help her guests check their steaks for the correct temperature. _Seven years_. Don't think for even one millisecond that my wife would EVER pay anything even remotely close to $200 for a 2xAA flashlight that I've tried to convince her will last forever.

She simply says - "So has my maglite."

And I cannot say anything logical back to her because she is right.

I'm pretty certain that Tandem will be looking elsewhere (read: outside of the US) for his AA light. And through personally owning some of these lights that others here are knocking simply because they are made in China, I've found some of them to be on par _or even better_ than what I can purchase that's made in the USA.

To paint such a broad stroke and say that something that is made in China equals a lousy product is IMO simply a statement that's ignorant of all the facts. 

I laugh every time I read a thread like this and wonder if on forums in China and India and Korea if they have these "don't buy American because it's low quality" conversations. :shakehead


----------



## Belstaff1464 (Oct 1, 2010)

Patriotism does come with a price. I'm not American btw. The Clicky is my favourite light. If it was made in China, or anywhere else for that matter, and it still had the same warranty and no-nonsense customer service it would still be my favourite light. I judge the product on its merits and not its origin.


----------



## tygger (Oct 1, 2010)

wacbzz said:


> To paint such a broad stroke and say that something that is made in China equals a lousy product is IMO simply a statement that's ignorant of all the facts.




Hear hear.


----------



## wacbzz (Oct 1, 2010)

Belstaff1464 said:


> ... If it was made in China, or anywhere else for that matter, and it still had the same warranty and no-nonsense customer service it would still be my favourite light. I judge the product on its merits and not its origin.



Which is _exactly_ why some people on this forum _do_ buy lights that are made in China.

Regardless of where a light (or any product for that matter) is made, it's the reputation of the dealers and manufacturers that stand behind their products that make people purchase them. And then _re_purchase from them again, and again, and again.


----------



## biker1 (Oct 1, 2010)

I'll keep this short and sweet 
I was always a Surefire & Streamlight guy.
And btw, I go out of my way to buy USA whenever I can.

Recently, I started to look at the imports in regards to flashlights, and I was amazed at the output, construction, quality control and price point of the lights being produced.
I have recently purchased the following >>


Maratac AA stainless steel flashlight 
Maratac AAA copper flashlight
Stev Ku drop in for my Surefire E2D Defender
Lumapower IncenDio V3 w/XP-G R5 emitter
EagleTac P20C2 MKII w/XP-G R5 emitter
MG P-Rocket w/SST-50 CW 800 lumens at the emitter
Pila charger
AW Li-ion batteries

Holy crap, I gotta start washing more dishes, as the above comes out to several hard earned sheckles :huh:

The above products are all non western items, and I have to say that the quality of these items is superb.
The construction, operation, attention to detail, etc. are very good.
It seems when it comes to Flashlights, and assorted add ons and parts, the quality and price point are very good.
For instance, I paid $55.00 for the Lumapower IncenDio V3, which has approx. 260? OTF lumens, and only uses 1 - Cr or RCR123A battery!
If I could purchase a SF light with those specs, it would most likely cost me hundreds of dollars. i don't think they make one though with those specs.
I don't mind paying more money for USA products, but I do mind if it costs me hundreds more, when I can get a very well made product for much less.
Another thing I noticed is that many of the companies such as EagleTac, Lumapower, Maratac, etc. listen to the feedback of the members of this forum, regarding the quality, user interface, any suggestions, etc. of the lights being produced and make the appropriate changes to their products, if warranted.
Not many companies, Flashlight related or otherwise, will do that, in the West or the East 

When it comes to their Flashlights and associated parts, it appears the East takes their product lines very seriously, in addition to the feedback from their customers. And that's a Huge plus in my book, or anyone's book for that fact.

I said this would be short & sweet, but I guess not


----------



## Darell (Oct 1, 2010)

jamesmtl514 said:


> This forum and it's admins are VERY pro China and it's hard to say anything negative without being criticized or worse.



I have no idea where this comment comes from.... unless you've taken some comments or moderation out of context. To put it simply - you are incorrect. I hope that it is hard to say anything *stupid* without recourse. But there's certainly no no problem with not liking something.


----------



## PCC (Oct 1, 2010)

A few years ago I was having a conversation with a coworker about Chinese products (this was at the height of the "Chinese products are junk" mania). He told me that a company that he had worked at before had a requirement for a part and that they had farmed it out to a manufacturer in China. The parts that they received, examined under an electron microscope, was superior to anything that could be manufactured here in the US *at any price*. They got them at 1/4 the cost of the lowest US bidder, too. The bottom line is that, like so many countries, you have companies that make good stuff and you have companies that make junk. Most of the junk you see imported into the US isn't so much the result of some company in China purposely making an inferior product to sell here but some unscrupulous businessman specifying a cheap product, trying to get the absolute lowest price possible and selling these products to Walmart, Target, etc, for the highest possible price.

I own Quark and Solarforce lights. I also own MagLites, SureFires, Pelicans, and some other lights. I don't particularly care where the lights are made as long as the quality is what I paid for.


----------



## KiwiMark (Oct 1, 2010)

I know that this forum is overall quite pro a bunch of different brands, but I doubt it is as much to do with them being made in China as it is them proving to be very good quality products.

e.g. 
- AW Li-ion cells - these are considered good quality, the fact that these cells are actually manufactured in China doesn't really matter to the majority of us on these forums (as far as I can tell).
- Quark light from 4Sevens - very positive comments abound on these forums, again almost certainly nothing to do with them being made in China.
- Fenix lights . . . etc.

Excellent products are excellent products and they will get much support from the people on this forum that appreciate excellent products - I think it is only a small minority that wont buy the lights made in China because they "only buy American" and there would be almost no one here that buy lights BECAUSE they are made in China.


----------



## KiwiMark (Oct 1, 2010)

PCC said:


> The parts that they received, examined under an electron microscope, was superior to anything that could be manufactured here in the US *at any price*.



This reminds me of something Sal Glesser posted in blade forums in response to some comments about USA made Spyderco knives being the only ones that were really good. Sal said that the knives they had made in Taiwan were not really any cheaper than those made in the US - they only had them made there because the manufacturers in Taiwan were able to produce the goods to the quality required, the product was in no way inferior. Sal has his knives made in the US of A and in Japan and in Taiwan and in China, I think he has a fair idea of what it takes to get quality products out of other countries. My Spyderco Endura is made in Seki City, Japan and it is very well made, my Ontario RAT-1 is also well made - Taiwan stamped on the blade doesn't make it any worse. I have seen many positive comments about the quality & value of the Spyderco & Byrd knives made in China. I have read lots of good comments about many products made all over the world - North America, South America, Asia, Europe - it really doesn't matter, a good product is still a good product.

I think what applies to knives would apply even more so to electronics - even many Japanese brands are having products made in China and if they are willing to trust their brands good name on products made in China then the consumers really don't have much to worry about. I believe that Apple also have electronics made in China - there are plenty of Americans that get fanatical over their Apple products despite the country of manufacture.


----------



## red02 (Oct 1, 2010)

LotusDarkrose said:


> I respect a company with well-made lights, and the customer service skills to fix problems that arise, and improve on products. A company that listens to what consumers want and tries their hardest to cater to their needs.
> 
> I don't care where my flashlights are made, as long as the above is met.



+100

So long as the company makes good stuff I don't really care where they make their products.

That said, I've had Nitecore, Dereelight, Fenix, Quark, LRI, and SF lights. I've had 2 AW protected cells fail. I've never had problems with with SF (while my G2 doesn't work with the Deree XRE, its not the G2's fault), Fenix and LRI. 

From my small sample 100% ok with US made and 25% failure rate with the others by manufacturer. Just my experience...


----------



## richpalm (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry, it's the American companies that send everything overseas and they spec it out-the China factories just build to their order. If AH greedy CEO says build it like crap, that's what's gonna happen _wherever_ "it" is made.

My Fenix TK45 is flawless. I have a couple of Ultrafires that I use more than the couple Surefires I have left. (At least when I could actually get anything out of DX-good luck now) I'm on a disability income... can't do Surefires or rich guy's custom lights any more. Weren't Longbows Chinese made? They are superb. I'd love to try Sunwayman and Jetbeams-the pictures sure are impressive.

I've been into shortwave radio for 30 years-do restorations of old radios-but some of these new Chinese made radios coming out now-they're getting things right. and I have a few that are good performers.

FWIW.

Rich


----------



## KiwiMark (Oct 2, 2010)

red02 said:


> That said, I've had Nitecore, Dereelight, Fenix, Quark, LRI, and SF lights. I've had 2 AW protected cells fail. I've never had problems with with SF (while my G2 doesn't work with the Deree XRE, its not the G2's fault), Fenix and LRI.
> 
> From my small sample 100% ok with US made and 25% failure rate with the others by manufacturer. Just my experience...



For the AW cells, that is 2 failed out of how many?

I must have bought somewhere close to 20 cells from AW with 0 failures.
From my 3 Jetbeams - 0 failures
From my 2 Olights - 0 failures
From my 2 Nitecores - 0 failures
From my 2 Zebralights - 0 failures
From my 1 Quark - 0 failures
From my 3 Fenixes - 0 failures
From my 1 ITP - 0 failures
From my 1 MG - 0 failures
From my 1 Liteflux - 0 failures

My sample size is also VERY small in the scheme of things - but my list of 16 lights that were made in China with no failures and over 16 Li-ion cells also made in China with no failures makes me think that the failure rate can't be overly high. Some of my lights are now over 2 years old and even carrying every day hasn't lead to a failure.


----------



## Flashfirstask?later (Oct 2, 2010)

Connor said:


> Well, you hardly see a "Made in Canada", "Made in the USA" or "Made in Germany" sticker because most/all of us are not willing to work for $5 a day.


For the "Made In Canada" the requirements is that the last substantial transformation of the goods must have occurred in Canada, and at least 51% of the total direct costs of producing or manufacturing the goods is Canadian.


----------



## red02 (Oct 2, 2010)

KiwiMark said:


> For the AW cells, that is 2 failed out of how many?
> 
> I must have bought somewhere close to 20 cells from AW with 0 failures.
> From my 3 Jetbeams - 0 failures
> ...


 2 out of 2 AW cells failed. Admittedly the sample size is too small to draw real conclusions. The prospect of continuously buying $10-16 rechargeables along with how fragile they are and the dangers of assosicated with Li-Ions convinced me that it wasn't worth it.

If I ever decide to get back into Li-Ions AW would be my first choice.



red02 said:


> So long as the company makes good stuff I don't really care where they make their products.
> 
> That said, I've had Nitecore, Dereelight, Fenix, Quark, LRI, and SF lights. I've had 2 AW protected cells fail. I've never had problems with with SF (while my G2 doesn't work with the Deree XRE, its not the G2's fault), Fenix and LRI.
> 
> From my small sample 100% ok with US made and 25% failure rate with the others by manufacturer. Just my experience...



Forgot to add Zebralight to my small list. Although I do like the mechanics of how they work, unfortunately I have nothing favorable to say.

Now it stands at 20% success rate and 80% failure rate; as only 1 of 5 have not had something go wrong.


----------



## etc (Oct 2, 2010)

PCC said:


> A few years ago I was having a conversation with a coworker about Chinese products (this was at the height of the "Chinese products are junk" mania). He told me that a company that he had worked at before had a requirement for a part and that they had farmed it out to a manufacturer in China. The parts that they received, examined under an electron microscope, was superior to anything that could be manufactured here in the US *at any price*. .



The fact of the matter is, US co's are not investing domestically. All the new investment and manufacturing is happening either in China or India. 
I do see your point with much clarity. You know, "I get it". I think in another 15-20 years, Chinese quality will seriously rise. Along with their prices too, until both essentially match domestic quality/prices. 
China has a business climate much more receptive to investment. US does not. Too many taxes. Remember the story about Buck knifes moving from California to Idaho a few years ago? It's the same thing. If they raise taxes and have all these mandates, they will just pack up and leave. Can you really blame them.

I don't like 'made in china' lites but suspect they will see much improvement. The features are nice but the execution and attention to detail is often hit and miss.


----------



## etc (Oct 2, 2010)

I have 1 AW cell fail, a 18500 cell (1 out of 6). I heard of other reports of 18500 cells failing. 
I have about that many 18650's, not a failure... 

Have some D sized NiMH cells, about half a dozen, 1 failed.. Hit and miss. It will *probably* work. But for best, try to go with Japanese Panasonic. 

Scary thing is, Japan has been outsourcing to China too.


----------



## Ray_of_Light (Oct 2, 2010)

A native chinese manufacturer, typically will lack concepts like "written contract", "product specification" or "quality assurance cycle".

If a supplier produce an intermediate component with the wrong dimensions, the customer, who have to assemble this component in his final product, will not return it. Simply, knowing that this CAN happen, will prepare the chassis containing this component AFTER he has received it.

If a manufacturing piece of equipment goes out of calibration, a chinese manufacturer will not stop the production chain. Not having the competence to calibrate the equipment, nor the reach for it, they find much simpler to sell the out-of-spec products at slightly lower price, rather then go out of business.
The problem is then amplified from middlemen and dealers, which will try to sell at the full price an out-of-spec product.

And so on. 

Even major manufacturers (and not only flashlight manufacturers) havent' been able to tame this inborne tendency. As matter of fact, every production batch of old flashlight projects is to be considered with attention; quality and uniformity can NEVER be given for granted on these premises.

Regards

Anthony


----------



## biker1 (Oct 2, 2010)

I have always read that top notch lithiums rechargeables (for cell phones, etc. ) are made in Japan. It is the 'cells' that are made in Japan which are top quality.
When it comes to RCR's of the Flashlight variety (18650's, 17670's, etc.) are there any that use cells made in Japan or the USA?
I know that the new 18650's 2900mAh use Panasonic cells (are those USA or Japan, btw?)
I know you can have Japanese lithium cells that are assembled into batteries in China, Taiwan, etc.
I am no expert, but I have AW cells and they seem to be top notch. Actually, when it comes to RCR cells for my Flashlights, I have been purchasing AW.


----------



## etc (Oct 2, 2010)

Ray_of_Light said:


> A native chinese manufacturer, typically will lack concepts like "written contract", "product specification" or "quality assurance cycle".
> 
> If a supplier produce an intermediate component with the wrong dimensions, the customer, who have to assemble this component in his final product, will not return it. Simply, knowing that this CAN happen, will prepare the chassis containing this component AFTER he has received it.
> 
> ...




That hits the nail directly on the head... Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Oct 2, 2010)

The OP's emphasis is flashlights "made in China". Lets keep on topic and keep this thread flashlight oriented.

Bill


----------



## etc (Oct 3, 2010)

Well, you cannot analyze the issue without examining some of the peripheral issues to it. I think Ray_Of_Light has the most satisfying explanation why we get hit and miss quality-wise with 'made in China'. Makes perfect sense and satisfies my curiosity.


----------



## richpalm (Oct 3, 2010)

Had two Ultrafire 18650's that failed immediately. Never again.

AW's have been fine FWIW.

Rich


----------



## KiwiMark (Oct 3, 2010)

richpalm said:


> Had two Ultrafire 18650's that failed immediately. Never again.
> 
> AW's have been fine FWIW.
> 
> Rich



Sometimes when you buy cheaper products you don't actually save money. I will often prefer to spend more to get higher quality goods that will last much longer - this can be cheaper than buying cheap junk that fails within weeks and you get the added advantage of having something better designed with better features.

I have looked at the lights on Dealextreme and there are many that are very cheap with good output - but how long before they fall apart? My Jetbeam lights have a better UI and are well made with square threads and good fit & finish, my Jet-IIIM has a warm tint which is more pleasant. None of the cheap lights seem to offer different tints - only promises of high Lumen output despite a low dollar cost.

I have taken the chance on cheap products plenty of times - but if I buy something that I expect to use regularly and hope for it to last for years then I would be looking towards the better quality goods and accepting that I'll have to pay more. These days the cheap products are made in China and quite often the better quality products that are dearer are also made in China - just different brands made to different standards at different prices.


----------



## octaf (Oct 4, 2010)

smokey616 said:


> I thought equaling 'Made in China' with 'Low Quality' was a thing of the past.



True 

Owning McGizmo Ti's & other various customs, HDS U60 XRGT, ARC6, Ra lights, Jetbeam and Fenix, honestly I do not see any reason why I should pay double, triple for Ra lights over jetbeam or fenix in terms of functions and quality. I guess china have improved themselves so quickly in last couple of years.

And the scarey thing is that china can survive on their own, where others most likely will be in trouble w/o trading relationship with china. :naughty:


----------



## SantaClawz (Oct 4, 2010)

octaf said:


> And the scarey thing is that china can survive on their own, where others most likely will be in trouble w/o trading relationship with china. :naughty:



There is so much foreign business in China, I doubt they would survive long, on their own if everybody pulled out. I am sure they depend on other countries as much as others depend on them.


----------



## grumbler (Oct 4, 2010)

Do you think Apple computers are made with quality? Every Apple device has "Designed by Apple in California, Manufactured in China" stamped or laser-etched in the back.


----------



## AMD64Blondie (Oct 4, 2010)

I own a Fenix TK40,as well as a 4Sevens' Preon 2 Ti. (Among many others,but let's not go there now...). Both of them have been very reliable. "Made in China"
doesn't have to be a bad thing.


----------



## octaf (Oct 4, 2010)

SantaClawz said:


> There is so much foreign business in China, I doubt they would survive long, on their own if everybody pulled out. I am sure they depend on other countries as much as others depend on them.



True, but by the time others with high tech pull out, china probably have sucked in all the essence they need already.


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Oct 5, 2010)

It looks like the OP's question has been answered relative to flashlights made in China. I am closing this thread, and those who wish to continue the conversation about the pros and con's of buying Chinese products, can do so in the Underground.

Bill


----------

