# Fenix L2D Q5 vs R100, R80, Q2, P4 Comparison Review: RUNTIMES+



## selfbuilt (Nov 15, 2007)

_This thread is a quick comparison of the Turbo modes of various Fenix L2D lights (Cree P4, Q2, Q5 and Rebel R80 and R100) in various configurations (L2D, L1D, P2D). For more detailed runtimes of lower modes, please see my  Fenix Rebel vs Cree: L1D/L1T/P2D OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS! thread._

*The contenders*:

From left to right: Standard Cree P4, Rebel R100 Premium, Cree Q5 Premium (not shown is Q2 Special Edition, which looks like the P4 but with an OP reflector, and the LxTv2.0 Rebel R80, which looks like the R100 head). The P4, Q2, and R80 were bought from fenix-store.com, and the R100 and Q5 were bought from fenix-tactical.com.







*Beamshots:*

On Turbo, with 2x Duracell 2650 NimH in L2D body 










Note that my camera seems to be accentuating the tint differences - it doesn't look quite so noticeable in real life. However, the P4 does have a cool blue-purple tint, the R100 has a warm yellow, and the Q5 is the whitest of the three. Although the overall output doesn't look all that different, this is probably just due to the cooler P4 tint looking brighter than it actually is, and the warmer R100 looking dimmer.

*Method:* All my output numbers are relative for my home-made light box setup, a la Quickbeam's FR.com method. My relative overall output numbers are typically similar to his, although generally a little lower. You can directly compare all my review graphs - i.e. an output value of "10" in one graph is the same as "10" in another.

Throw values are the square-root of lux measurements taken at 1m using a light meter. 

*Summary Chart for Turbo mode with 2650mAh NiMH in LxD, or AW Protected 3.7V RCR in P2D*

Note that these are initial output values only - some lights decay faster than others before reaching a "steady-state" regulated value. See the runtime graphs below for more detailed information.






For comparison purposes, here are the results of a "ceiling-bounce" test in a small windowless room, with my light meter on the floor near the base of the light (which is shining upward in candle-mode), in a L2D body on NiMH:

Rebel R80: *5.6 lux*
Rebel R100: *5.8 lux*
Cree P4: *4.9 lux*
Cree Q2: *5.5 lux*
Cree Q5: *7.1 lux*

As you can see the Q5 has a noticeable jump in output compared to the others - in L2D format. This effect is less pronounced in P2D or L1D format.

*Runtimes:* 

All runtimes done in my lightbox under a cooling fan, with the identified batteries listed below.

Turbo mode in L2D format (2x NiMH Duracell 2650mAh)





Turbo mode in P2D format (1x AW RCR Protected 3.7V 750mAh)





Turbo mode in L1D format (1x NiMH Duracell 2650mAh)





For more detailed runtimes of the L1D in lower modes on alkaline for all heads, please see my  Fenix Rebel vs Cree: L1D/L1T/P2D OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS! thread.

*Conclusion:*

The new Cree Q5 is definitely the output winner in 2AA and 1CR123 formats, although the Rebel models typically have longer runtimes (especially in lower output modes).
On 1AA, the results aren't quite so clear cut, although the same general output/runtime relationship holds. The Q5 has the lowest runtime on 1AA (consistent with the presumably higher Vf of Q5 emitters).
The various heads show roughly equivalent maximum output in 2AA or 1RCR modes. In my sample runs, the Cree models tended to be just slightly brighter on 2AA, whereas and my Rebel R100 was slightly brighter on RCR. This could simply be natural variation in the runs, but it tends to accentuate the difference on the 2AA runtime graph compared to the RCR test. 
The texture OP reflector on the Q2/Q5 Cree versions does help smooth out the rings in the beam, but this effect seems less agressive on my Q5 sample (either the OP is less agressive, or perhaps the emitter is not quite at the same height?).
The Rebel heads give a wider spillbeam than the Cree heads, with no evidence of rings.
Subjectively, the Rebel heads appear to produce better color rendition outdoors at night.
Frankly, I don't see how you'd go wrong with any of these lights! 

To see detailed runtimes between the heads in low-med-hi modes (on 1AA only), please see my  Fenix Rebel vs Cree: L1D/L1T/P2D OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS! thread. Sorry, but I don't intend to recreate all those alkaline runs on L2D.

Cheers!


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## LED_Thrift (Nov 15, 2007)

Thank you again for your contributions to this community selfbuilt. Those graphs are *GREAT*.


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## gravityz (Nov 15, 2007)

Yes selfbuilt

thanks for the updates

i think many of us which did not buy the L2DCE Q5 probably will after your results

if you are an 1x AA man than the rebel100 is the better choice
on 2x AA it is the Q5

i noticed that fenix-store does not list the rebel100 anymore so for those people who are still after a rebel100 they better start hunting for one.

for myself i am happy with my Q5 more light at the cost of runtime is not an issue for me as long as the trade off is not that big(like with the Q5)


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## rizky_p (Nov 15, 2007)

Nice indeed. A true comparison of the different generations of L2D with NUMBERs!!


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## gunga (Nov 15, 2007)

You are amazing Selfbuilt! THanks so much for the detailed info!


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## selfbuilt (Nov 15, 2007)

Thanks for support guys! 

I must say, I was personally surprised to see how much better the Q5 Cree did on 2AA format. Been testing the 1AA format for so long, hadn't really kept a close eye on this format. 



gravtyz said:


> i noticed that fenix-store does not list the rebel100 anymore so for those people who are still after a rebel100 they better start hunting for one.


From what I remember hearing, the relative scarcity of R100 premium emitters is one of the reasons why Fenix released the Q5 Cree. In support of that conclusion, you'll note this is the first Cree version to use the new Rebel exterior head styling. Personally, I rather like the Rebel beam profile and color rendition, but this Q5 is certainly no slouch!

One thing I didn't mention in the review - although David from fenix-store.com said Fenix engineer's have worked to minize the high output "flash" on low mode, my Q5 still has a very pronounced one. My Q5 was obtained from fenixtactical.com, but I would imagine they have a similar build level. Probably just luck of the draw for the time being.

Cheers!


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## gravityz (Nov 16, 2007)

selfbuilt said:


> Thanks for support guys!
> 
> One thing I didn't mention in the review - although David from fenix-store.com said Fenix engineer's have worked to minize the high output "flash" on low mode, my Q5 still has a very pronounced one. My Q5 was obtained from fenixtactical.com, but I would imagine they have a similar build level. Probably just luck of the draw for the time being.
> 
> Cheers!


 
mine has the same thing
i have read some threads that this has been in there from day one so obviously they did not fix it.


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## NA8 (Nov 16, 2007)

Looking at the 2xAA relative output of the rebel80, rebel100, and Q2; I wonder if you got one of the rumored rebel90s instead of a rebel80. There just doesn't seem to be the proportional output difference between the r80 and r100 compared to the chartbusting Q5. Any way you look at it, it seems you got an exceptional Q5 if Fenix's ratings are accurate at all.


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## gravityz (Nov 16, 2007)

NA8 said:


> Looking at the 2xAA relative output of the rebel80, rebel100, and Q2; I wonder if you got one of the rumored rebel90s instead of a rebel80. There just doesn't seem to be the proportional output difference between the r80 and r100 compared to the chartbusting Q5. Any way you look at it, it seems you got an exceptional Q5 if Fenix's ratings are accurate at all.


 

my Q5 performs about the same(if i compare runtimes) so i do not think it is exeptional

as for specs
The Q5 is the only one which consumes more power than the fenix spec state

runtime on high accoording to fenix on high is 4 hours (real runtime is more than 4 hours 4:24)

runtime on turbo accoording to fenix 2.4 hours(real runtime is about 2 hours)

so on turbo this baby really performs but also consumes a bit more power that the previous Q2 and P4

i like the tradeoff, a lot more output and only minor loss of time


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## selfbuilt (Nov 16, 2007)

NA8 said:


> Looking at the 2xAA relative output of the rebel80, rebel100, and Q2; I wonder if you got one of the rumored rebel90s instead of a rebel80. There just doesn't seem to be the proportional output difference between the r80 and r100 compared to the chartbusting Q5. Any way you look at it, it seems you got an exceptional Q5 if Fenix's ratings are accurate at all.


I suspect you are right there NA8, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference between my Rebels in 2AA mode (it was more noticeable on 1AA). Could be a R90 instead of an R80 ... hard to know. 

My Q5 does indeed seem to be a good one, as the output is a bit higher on 2AA than I would have expected. Of course, there's only so much you can tell from n=1 for each of the lights, but the relative relationships make sense (i.e. within flux bin range). Especially on the RCR graphs, where things fall out roughly where I would expect for a middle-of-the-range output based on identified flux bin.



gravtyz said:


> mine has the same thing
> i have read some threads that this has been in there from day one so obviously they did not fix it.


Yes, but it is variable. My R100 Premium is certainly less noticeable than the others. I don't doubt Fenix is working to fix the problem, but they certainly haven't yet on my Q5 sample.


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## StandardBattery (Nov 16, 2007)

*Really nice summary Selfbuilt!* :thumbsup:

I must have got one of the last L2D-RB100 from fenix-store, as I just got it last week, but I had bought it as a gift and I didn't have time to play with it very much before I packaged it up with some other lights. I think I'll get another to play with before they're all gone.

I like the Rebel LED. I wonder if some bigger company bought put in a huge order and that is why supplied dried up for the smaller guys. Maybe a flashlight company, or maybe because of the tint they are going into home lighting products.


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## rizky_p (Nov 17, 2007)

@StandardBattery: no your RB100 is not the last 

did not realized that RB100 is rare, i just got my L2D-RB 100 yesterday must be really lucky then.

I noticed from your result that rebel L2D has slightly better throw and runtime compared to Q5 probably because of the higher vF of Q5. 

Really happy with my L2D-RB100 especially the warm colour of it.

thanks.


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## StandardBattery (Nov 18, 2007)

rizky_p said:


> @StandardBattery: no your RB100 is not the last
> 
> did not realized that RB100 is rare, i just got my L2D-RB 100 yesterday must be really lucky then.


 
Did you get it from Fenix-store?? They are not listing it anymore, other dealers still have some available. 

I also picked up one for myself, when it was clear that they may not be available much longer. I debated for a little while, since the next bin might be available soon and the RB100 will be old news. I have a feeling though that lumileds has got other applications for the leds, and they may not be so easy to find in flashlights from the larger manufacturers. Either way it's a great light, and I will try it with eneloops as I'm not using any other type of NiMh at the moment. Lithium/Lithium-Ion has just too many advantages. Of course I can always use regular Alkalines, just stay away from Turbo too often.


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## Mr Floppy (Nov 19, 2007)

Great review sir! I have all the L2D variations except the Q2 and the Q5. I think I'll skip the Q2 and just go for the Q5 based on these results. 

Just a question about the ceiling bounce test, how high is your ceiling? Not that it matters since they all come from the same reference point but I'm just curious.


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## jirik_cz (Nov 19, 2007)

Today I've made runtime test of L2D Q5 on turbo and I'm very surprised. I measured 2:25 on full brightness. So I've made a second test with another pair of batteries and the result is 2:20. Both tests done with sanyo 2700mAh. 
It looks like not all Q5s have high Vf :-D

Unfortunately, this Fenix is not mine, it is only borrowed from our local Fenix dealer (kronium.cz).

beamshots from the second test:


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## gravityz (Nov 19, 2007)

jirik_cz said:


> Today I've made runtime test of L2D Q5 on turbo and I'm very surprised. I measured 2:25 on full brightness. So I've made a second test with another pair of batteries and the result is 2:20. Both tests done with sanyo 2700mAh.
> It looks like not all Q5s have high Vf :-D
> 
> Unfortunately, this Fenix is not mine, it is only borrowed from our local Fenix dealer (kronium.cz).
> ...


 
can you do the same with 1x AA

i tested this and got 1:50
current with 1xAA is 1.4 amps
2500/1400=1.8 hours is 1:48 minutes

current on turbo with 2x AA ia 1.9 amps
it should last 2500/1900*2=2.6 hours is 2 hours 36 minutes which is in line with the result you got.


i do not know if selfbuilt really tested it on 2x AA but i expect he did


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## jirik_cz (Nov 19, 2007)

gravtyz said:


> can you do the same with 1x AA
> 
> i tested this and got 1:50
> current with 1xAA is 1.4 amps
> ...



I don't have L1D body now.

Your calculation is not correct, batteries in L2D are in series connection so only voltage is double but capacity remains the same.

I measured current on turbo and got 1,5A. But I think it is not valid number (also your 1,9A). Here on CPF I have read that you can't measure current on this kind of electronics with common multimeter, because you will get faulty numbers.


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## gravityz (Nov 19, 2007)

i just did another reading

this time with 2x AA in turbo i got indeed 1.4 amps
i apparently hooked up my amp meter wrong(it has a 20 amp setting)

i found another thing

while i was doing some reading i did not get very good contact with the back of the tube. sometimes it worked sometimes it did not
it turned out that the back of the tube also looked like it was partly anodized.

i removed some of it and i got way better contact as well as more light(at least i think

so on turbo it is using the same amps as 
with 1xAA but uses double the voltage(thus higher output)

so new calculation should be 2500/1400=1.8 hours as in 1:48

sorry, i was mislead by the wrong amp

so if somebody else is getting 2:20 hours that is nice but then i think his output is not as much as we are getting.


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## jirik_cz (Nov 19, 2007)

I was really surprised by such a long runtime, but I have to say that L2D Q5 is absolutely as bright as L2D Rebel (my runtime 2:10).

here are some beamshots:

l2d Q5



l2D rebel 0100



p3d q5



and all together = 570 lumens :devil:


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## Julian Holtz (Nov 19, 2007)

Nice pictures!

One can see, that the Q5 has a little more output than the Rebel, but I like the warm tint of the rebel.
I just upgraded my L1D with a Q5 WH.
I cant wait for my L2D R100 to arrive, then I can swap the heads

Cheers,

Julez


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## selfbuilt (Nov 19, 2007)

Mr Floppy said:


> Just a question about the ceiling bounce test, how high is your ceiling? Not that it matters since they all come from the same reference point but I'm just curious.


About 9 feet. It's "powder room" bathroom, so fairly small - just a toilet and vanity sink). 



gravtyz said:


> i do not know if selfbuilt really tested it on 2x AA but i expect he did


Indeed I did. In fairness though, my Duracell 2650mAh NiMHs are getting rather old, and I know are down to <2600mAh capacity (brand new, my Maya charger reported >2700mAh for all of them). But all the 2AA runtimes were done within a couple of days of each other, so the results are at least internally comparable.

In general, I would expect more variation among Q4/Q5 lights, due to the more variable higher Vfs these emitters seem to be coming with. You may be lucky and snag a good one ... who knows?

FYI, I personally no longer bother taking tailcap DMM readings, as I've noticed they aren't always the most accurate (even on my DMM's 10A port). This is often especially true on multi-level lights. If you have a lightmeter, you may notice that brightness is not always the same when the DMM is connecting the circuit. So the measurement is just not reliable - I prefer to trust the actual runtimes on known battery types.


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## gravityz (Nov 20, 2007)

i do not see that much difference between the Q5 and R100 except for the color.

i know tailcap readings can be of some time but not by much

i got 1.4 amps, you got 1.5 amps so it is save to say the consume almost the same amount of watts
difference has to be in the batteries also.

i used 2500mah and got 6 minutes more than selfbuilt who is using 2650

the reason i got the amp reding wass wrong was like this

on my dmm there are 4 contacts
V(red)
common(black)
A(black)
20A(black

i hooked up the light between 20A and common(because the other setting has a max of 200ma)

i got no reading at al(because the back of the tube was partly anodized)
i thought i hooked it up wrong and connected it to 20A and A
when i did this the light powered up and i got a reading of 1.9 amps

yesterday i noticed that the connections were wrong and corrected it.

FYI my DMM is one of high quality with a very low resistance(when on A)

this differentiates my DMM from the ones you can buy from radioshack for $20 which are not accurate at al, especially on the voltage setting because then they need to be endless resistance.

i am only using the DMM to spot any anomolies(like i did after i heared turbo should read 1.4-1.5 instead of 1.9)

So selfbuilt is right. the only weay to have a 100% reading is to test it.
most of us however do not have the time or are afraight to fry there leds

maybee i will do a runtime also in my garage which is much cooller than my livingroom.


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## windstrings (Nov 21, 2007)

jirik_cz said:


> I was really surprised by such a long runtime, but I have to say that L2D Q5 is absolutely as bright as L2D Rebel (my runtime 2:10).
> 
> here are some beamshots:
> 
> ...



Nice pics!... the warmth of the 2D rebel and the wider beam almost makes it look brighter to me! I tend to enjoy frequencies that render true color at night.

The 2D Q5 looks brighter in its spill up front, but the rebel seems to carry the distance better.


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## EV_007 (Nov 22, 2007)

Nice comparison pics. That Rebel is lookin' pretty damn good for an LED in terms of color rendition. I'm an incan guy at heart, but the efficiency and runtime of LEDs cannot be denied. 

Looks like the Rebel may be the stat of my LED migration.


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## windstrings (Nov 23, 2007)

Call it greed, but I tend to agree with you, but I still ordered the Q5 since its available in the "Special Edition" versions which are even brighter yet for the amount of power used..... I doubt any of the "special edition" versions were used in any of these calculations and charts.


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## gravityz (Nov 23, 2007)

windstrings said:


> Call it greed, but I tend to agree with you, but I still ordered the Q5 since its available in the "Special Edition" versions which are even brighter yet for the amount of power used..... I doubt any of the "special edition" versions were used in any of these calculations and charts.


 
The Q5 and rebel100 ARE special edition versions

normally you can only buy the rebel 80 version or the P4(maybee Q2) version.

it means that qwhen you order a special editon you get the Q5 guaranteed
if you order the normal version you either get the rebel80(if you order rebel) or the P4/Q2 verion, no guarantees on what you get.


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## windstrings (Nov 23, 2007)

Thanks for the clarification... maybe they need to update their website to remove the confusion... unless its only me thats confused! :sigh:

If you look at that page, you will see that only the Q5 has the **special edition** especially noted by their name... the 100's do not, but only to mention they are premium, which to me can be merely a name.

Its true, they are all on the page labelled " *Limited/Premium Editions* ", but that does not imply that "limited" is the same as "premium".... to me it mean't that this page includes "limited" and "premium" editions....

But even if it were interpreted to all mean the same, the real confusion is then they denote "Special" by some and not others.


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## gravityz (Nov 23, 2007)

windstrings said:


> Thanks for the clarification... maybe they need to update their website to remove the confusion... unless its only me thats confused! :sigh:
> 
> If you look at that page, you will see that only the Q5 has the **special edition** especially noted by their name... the 100's do not, but only to mention they are premium, which to me can be merely a name.
> 
> ...


 
i see your confusion

the photo is that of the L2DCE rebel100
this was the first premium L2DCE
after that came the L2DCE Q5
at the moment they can not deliver the rebel100 anymore but they are using the same photo for the Q5(it still says 175 lumens while it is 180)
so yes it is not always clear what they mean butas a rule of thumb you can use this

the limited/premium editions are most of the time lights with eithers special/better leds inside or a special body/color
they use premium to desginate a high quality LED like the rebel100 or the Q5
They use special edition when they have a special color available, you see this a lot with the PD
basically you pay more but they guarantee what you get
with the others it al depends on what they have available in china

you can buy a regular L1DCE and what you get is the following
P4 led until this runs out
Q2 led if they can not get the P4
maybee Q4

for them the case is simple if they have to choose between shipping a light with a better led or shipping no light at al they go for the better led.

either way the fenix lights are really good quality when it comes to maximum output and maximum regulated time
as for HAIII finish i am not so sure


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## windstrings (Nov 23, 2007)

Thanks for the clarification... I'm sure I will like the q5 too.... I would like to play with a rebel side by side and compare.

thanks for the help.


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## sims2k (Nov 29, 2007)

Great reviews. Thanks.


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## windstrings (Nov 29, 2007)

I did call "an unmentioned name that sells them".... they are out of the rebels right now and even called it a "fad".

They had convictions the Q5 was the best as they are more efficient being the cree technology... less heat to the head, better transfer away from the diode etc. 

Also, although there are trends, no led is the same... some are warmer than others and vice versa.

You may get a Q 5 thats warmer than a rebel etc.....


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## BentHeadTX (Nov 29, 2007)

windstrings said:


> I did call "an unmentioned name that sells them".... they are out of the rebels right now and even called it a "fad".
> 
> They had convictions the Q5 was the best as they are more efficient being the cree technology... less heat to the head, better transfer away from the diode etc.
> 
> ...



I have a L2D RB100 mounted on my bicycle helmet as a light. It works very well and I get noticed...by everyone... even if they don't want to notice me. Really though about the Q5 model but realized I am splitting hairs. 

Bring on the R4 bin!


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## windstrings (Nov 29, 2007)

It really is splitting hairs..... more a matter of what kind of hair you want!


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## jirik_cz (Dec 12, 2007)

Today I've checked takebeat's blog. He measured runtimes of L2D CE & Prem. 100 & Prem. Q5 with different ni-mh batteries. I think his numbers are quite interesting
http://www.google.cz/translate?u=ht.../blog/?offset=10&langpair=ja|en&hl=en&ie=UTF8


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## windstrings (Dec 12, 2007)

I got my Q5 and I already had a regular P1D.
I had already decided to give the one I wasn't going to carry to my son as it was far better than what he had.

I honestly couldn't see a difference in brightness intensity....

the Beam of the Q5 was a bit softer on the edges and warmer than my P1D. I think it makes me glad I didn't get the 100 as I don't want any warmer.

I think at a distance the Q5 "could" be a tad bigger in the area it covers with the same center intensity.
The P1D almost has the illusion of being brighter just because of its beam being clearly defined more on the edges and not as warm, but its a real tossup on which one I actually preferred for beam quality alone.

I decided to keep the Q5 just because the technology is better as far as heat and possible battery life "which I can't confirm" etc, but If I had it to do over again... I wouldn't have upgraded as they are basically the same light unless you want to split hairs.

At least my son has a decent light now for breakdowns etc on the side of the road or whatever... every since I gave him a light he now cannot believe how much he actually uses it.


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## Bolek (Dec 23, 2007)

Ineed some help with my fenix lego:
I have a L2 D CE(P4 cree 2AA) and a P2D premium (R100 1* 16340).
The L2d works as expected : turbo and not turbo modes.
The P2d woks only on turbo with a rechargable batterie (4.1V). Is it normal ? With a weak 123 the light is dim and no mod change can be seen. (I has no normal 123). the P2D head on the L2d tube (i.e. with 2AA NiMH) works with all modes.
Can I put the L2D CE (Cree P4) head on the P2d tube with a 16340 4.1 or 4.2 V batterie without risks for the head ?


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## jirik_cz (Dec 23, 2007)

AFAIK L2D and P2D heads are just the same. It will work only on turbo too. But I'm not sure if Fenix officialy supports 3,7V (4,2V after charge) batteries. 
I'm playing now with L1D Q5 (head from L2D Q5) with 3,7V 14500 battery and it is very bright and it works so far.


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## selfbuilt (Dec 23, 2007)

jirik_cz said:


> AFAIK L2D and P2D heads are just the same. It will work only on turbo too. But I'm not sure if Fenix officialy supports 3,7V (4,2V after charge) batteries.


That's right, the heads are the same. You can use them interchangeably on the LxD and P2D bodies (but not the P3D, that head is different).

And yes, you loose all modes but Turbo initially on Li-ion (RCR or 14500). Actually, light will decay in direct drive mode until set output mode is reached, at which point regulation kicks in (although not for long, since battery is usually almost drained by then). You'll see some curves for 14500 in my main AA review thread in my sig.


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## Bolek (Dec 24, 2007)

:thanks:
You are right, I just tried (after reeding you respons to be shur not to  my cree P4 L2D head).


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## zipplet (Feb 18, 2008)

Thank you OP for the very informative comparision of the fenix L2D-CE heads. Looks like I'll need to get myself a Q5 when I eventually get my L1D 

Regarding the tint of the rebel I find it has slightly better colour rendition than the cree P4 (I think?) in my older L2D (march 2007).


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## Dactylus (Feb 18, 2008)

gravityz said:


> mine has the same thing
> i have read some threads that this has been in there from day one so obviously they did not fix it.


 
As does mine, purchased in Jan as part of the 4-in-1 combo.


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## Burgess (Mar 4, 2008)

to Selfbuilt, and everyone else --


Lotsa' great information here.


Thank you for your efforts. :twothumbs

:wave:
_


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## balticvid (Mar 31, 2009)

My thanks also. You really are very clear with your explanations.
Makes my life easier.


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