# Got stopped by police for Zebralight SC32



## mega_lumens (Jul 5, 2015)

Yesterday I went to watch Macy's July 4th fireworks and then stopped at a bar with friends. On the way home from celebrations around 2 am, I was in the 59th Street Lexington subway station (in NYC.) I saw 2 NYPD officers and passed them, when moments later both of them charged towards me yelling for me to stop, but I didn't realize it was them or someone was yelling at me, so I walked fast paced as I always do to catch my train. One cop rushed around me and I got a bit nervous. Both of them were yelling "what's that in your pocket" pointing to the clip of Zebralight SC32. I said "it's just a flashlight" and pulled it out to show them. But one of the cop got startled and thought I was going to stab him. I felt like one went for his gun as I was pulling the light out. Then they told me that my flashlight clip looks like a knife and it's illegal to walk around with knives, and that I made them nervous for pulling out the flashlight. I was never stopped by police before and plus I wasn't sober so pulling out the flashlight wasn't the best move, but naturally, you just want to "show" that here look, I'm not carrying a weapon....

With all the tragic stories in the U.S. of cops shooting innocent people over Perceived dangerous items., I'm giving a little rethought on how I should carry my EDC lights without causing suspicion. These days, you can't even carry a multi tool and now a flashlight without raising alarm from police.


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## Capolini (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*

Wow,,sorry to hear that. 

I guess that could happen anywhere, but less likely in the small town like I live in. I live ~30 miles from Philly. 

Glad your ok.

EDIT: I was just thinking,,,what if your light was in a Holster?!

I am on the trail every night w/ Capo my Siberian. afterwards we stop at Wawa [like a 7-Eleven] and get a few snacks. I always have Two lights on me in Holsters! I see cops all the time. I guess because some know me because of my lights and light testing and the fact that the lights are not totally concealed. Also there is a lot more crime/population in a major City like New York, Philly ect. where tensions are much higher.


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## Capolini (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*

Not that it matters!! Do you mean *SC32[Zebralight]?*


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## WarRaven (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*



Capolini said:


> Not that it matters!! Do you mean *SC32[Zebralight]?*


I'm Guessing PD32.


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## kj2 (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*

Whoo.. tension must be high indeed, if they react like that. I assume you mean PD32 instead of SC.. 
Think a holster can be a option. Or you'll have to pocket carry. Although most 1x 18650 aren't that pocket friendly.


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## nfetterly (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*

Also - July 4th cops / authorities in NYC were on "high alert". KJ2 beat me to it.


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## mega_lumens (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*



Capolini said:


> Not that it matters!! Do you mean *SC32[Zebralight]?*


 Yes ZEBRALIGHT!! How could I screw up on my favorite light.


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## Capolini (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*



nfetterly said:


> Also - July 4th cops / authorities in NYC were on "high alert". KJ2 beat me to it.




Capolini beat ALL of you to it!!! ,,,,,,,,,,,,I guess because I was the first post after op!

I got the light right to,,I need to play the lottery! lol!


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## Swamplite (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*

When stopped by law enforcement always keep your hands open and away from your body.Eye to eye contact and no sudden moves.The officer will advise you what to do.Compliance with an officers commands would stop almost all of the police involved tragedies.If you feel you are treated unfairly for any reason deal with it after the fact.I very seldom get stopped but if I do I make it a point to follow commands and be extremely polite.My actions have got me out of a couple of moving violations and I'm still breathing.In my 68 years I have never had a problem with any LEO following these tactics.


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## WarRaven (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*



Swamplite said:


> When stopped by law enforcement always keep your hands open and away from your body.Eye to eye contact and no sudden moves.The officer will advise you what to do.Compliance with an officers commands would stop almost all of the police involved tragedies.If you feel you are treated unfairly for any reason deal with it after the fact.I very seldom get stopped but if I do I make it a point to follow commands and be extremely polite.My actions have got me out of a couple of moving violations and I'm still breathing.In my 68 years I have never had a problem with any LEO following these tactics.


+10


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## LedTed (Jul 5, 2015)

Although this situation got a little out of hand, you have to give some credit to the LEO who was observent enough to notice the clip in the first place.


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## scout24 (Jul 5, 2015)

"Investagative detention" aka Terry Stop. NOTHING clipped to your pockets in NYC. EVER. That's the enviroment down there, and just one more reason I'm glad I moved farther away...  You can carry things, just not clipped. It's used as an excuse to stop and frisk. Tuck multitools lr lights down alongside your wallet, or in your waistband beneath an untucked shirt...


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## aginthelaw (Jul 5, 2015)

"or you can clip your things outside your pocket. looks goofy but at least you won't get stopped" quote from Seymore Hair, inventor of the see-through bikini


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## Eagles1181 (Jul 5, 2015)

So greatful that I don't live anywhere near NYC. Carrying a pocket knife is illegal? REALLY!?!

Eagle


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## Tac Gunner (Jul 5, 2015)

Glad I don't live in a big city. I haven't been stopped by LEO but I did get hustled a few months ago by security at a concert for my EA4. I have carried it with me multiple times at that particular stadium and had even been through security once already that night with no questions asked. 

When I went through secuity the second time (went in the wrong gate for the tickets I had the first time) the security guard asked what the black thing was in my hat that looked like a flashlight (I had taken my hat off and put all my stuff in it on the table when I went through the metal detector) to which I replied it was and he asked why I needed it. I told him, and was polite about it, that it would be dark in the arena and if the power went out I would like to be able to see. I was told that was not a valid reason and he would have to take it and ask his supervisor if I was allowed to have it. At that point I just told him I would take it back out to my vehicle. There was nothing on their prohibited items list about flashlights and I was polite when speaking with the gentleman so I'm not sure what the big deal was especially since I had never had any trouble before.


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## P_A_S_1 (Jul 5, 2015)

mega_lumens said:


> .........."it's just a flashlight" and pulled it out to show them. ......



I'm glad it worked out and you didn't get whacked with a night stick for your reaction. NYC isn't knife friendly, just the way it is. Short of a SAK or similar it's bound to get attention by others, especially the PD that sees it as an easy stop and potential arrest. Also in NYC, in addition to the state penal law you have local laws, most notably the NYC Administration Codes which has many 'catch all' rules in regards to knives. These violation allow stops that can escalate into arrest for the improperly identified or knives that may be considered 'dangerous weapons' and elevate the charges on scene to 'must arrest'. Pocket clips are generally associated with knives, that plus one or two other factors you may or may not be aware of probably contributed to the stop.


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## Str8stroke (Jul 5, 2015)

Wow crazy story. How did it end? He could be posting from the clink! lol 

Google some of the stories about "gravity knife" in NYC. I read some from one of the Knife Forums. TO ME: its NUTS, You will be shocked and saddened to see how some LEO's behave there. Of course it is all about making MONEY and not really about safety so what do you expect? 
I can remember carrying and using a small pocket knife in middle & high school. One guy carried a Leatherman on his belt. Times sure have changed. 

IMHO: NYC knife laws are for making money.


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## P_A_S_1 (Jul 5, 2015)

Str8stroke said:


> IMHO: NYC knife laws are for making money.



Not really. Parking tickets generate revenue, lots of it for the city, however criminal court summons and arrests cost the city (tax payers) money. If you consider the salary/benefits of the officer, the courts, administrative staff/facilities, the lawsuits, the percentage of generated revenue in relation to the summons issued, prisoner lodging, dismissals, ect. you'd see it's a money loser not maker. One reason the city is reevaluating it's enforcement policy on marijuana offenses is such.


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## Roger Sully (Jul 5, 2015)

Even though I'm here on CPF and I EDC a light on a daily basis I NEVER ever assumed when I see a clip in a pocket that it's a flashlight. I see a clip I assume knife. NYC is the most ridiculous state when it comes to knives. I heard a story some time ago of someone being accused of carrying a gravity knife because the officer held the blade of his Leatherman Wave and "flicking" the knife open!


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## idleprocess (Jul 5, 2015)

mega_lumens said:


> Then they told me that my flashlight clip looks like a knife and *it's illegal to walk around with knives*, and that I made them nervous for pulling out the flashlight.


I would have difficulty with the mindset that leads to that sort of law going onto the books.

But as others have said, comply with instructions given by police officers in a deliberate fashion and be polite. I too have been detained by the police for stupid reasons, but I was also engaged in what they could easily categorize as unusual behavior thus they were within their authority to stop me briefly. I made a mistake similar to yours in one encounter that made things a little tense, but maintained a civil tone with the officers and nothing came of it - although I do wonder how long they maintain records of non-arrest/non-cite incidents.


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## aginthelaw (Jul 5, 2015)

Roger Sully said:


> Even though I'm here on CPF and I EDC a light on a daily basis I NEVER ever assumed when I see a clip in a pocket that it's a flashlight. I see a clip I assume knife. NYC is the most ridiculous state when it comes to knives. I heard a story some time ago of someone being accused of carrying a gravity knife because the officer held the blade of his Leatherman Wave and "flicking" the knife open!



actually it's plainfield, nj. when i got locked up in a dv incident (my brother tried to punch my windows out of my truck and broke his hand, so they locked me up. the truck was parked and unoccupied), they confiscated all my weapons, including machine guns and a grenade launcher. after the truth came out in court, and after an additional 4 1/2 month ordeal to get my weapons back (over 100) they gave me back everything except for the switch blades. i got back the swords, the fully automatic weapons, and the grenade launcher, but they stated the switchblades were illegal and wouldn't be returned


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## Capolini (Jul 5, 2015)

^^^ Were the weapons in your truck or did they go to your place of residence and confiscate them?

If they were in your truck, what were you doing transporting them around?!


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## Taz80 (Jul 5, 2015)

Even though knives are illegal in (the police state of) NYC thats sounds like a unprofessional overreaction by those officers. Its sad that parts of our country have come to this.


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## Berneck1 (Jul 5, 2015)

They ARE legal in NYC. There are, however, a lot of technicalities in the law, such as the knife must be concealed. If the cop sees the clip, he can say you're breaking the law because it can "be seen." Another technicality is how they define a gravity knife. If the blade can flip out fairly easily, they can call it illegal. I have read stories of police officers flicking the knife as hard as they can to get the knife to pop out, and then arresting the person for possessing a gravity knife.

There's another line in the law that makes any "dangerous" knife illegal. Anything in the wrong hands can be dangerous. 

We have allowed our lawmakers to give this power to law enforcement. Most people just don't care. And, the more power you bestow upon any person, they WILL abuse it to some degree. I don't care how good the person is. 

These cops abused their power, plain and simple, even if to a minor extent. We need to force these police officers to act with probable cause, AND rewrite the laws in a way that does not give them the ability to make something illegal if they happen to feel like doing so. 


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


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## RetroTechie (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*



mega_lumens said:


> With all the tragic stories in the U.S. of cops shooting innocent people over Perceived dangerous items., I'm giving a little rethought on how I should carry my EDC lights without causing suspicion.


That's exactly what you should NOT do, imho. Each time people give in and stop doing things that a reasonable person wouldn't think twice about (and which are perfectly legal!), those things become _de facto_ 'forbidden' over time. Making it easier for authorities to turn "de facto" into law, and proceed to take the next step in limiting what you're allowed to do or not. So that as time passes, you get to live in a police state where life is hell and you can't do _anything_  any more.

That said,



Swamplite said:


> When stopped by law enforcement always keep your hands open and away from your body.Eye to eye contact and no sudden moves.The officer will advise you what to do.Compliance with an officers commands would stop almost all of the police involved tragedies.


+++ many. LEO's in the US regularly step outside their bounds as it is. When you find yourself in their cross-hairs, *don't give them any excuse!*



> If you feel you are treated unfairly for any reason deal with it after the fact.


^^ This. The best move to 'fight' with a LEO (either verbal or physical), is not to play. They're better armed, better trained, and better connected. Focus on the above, take note of officer's names, possible witnesses in the area etc, and keep your mouth shut as much as possible. If you are treated unfairly enough to warrant a complaint or legal proceedings, that's fodder for a lawyer to work on and get $$ compensation.

It's really sad that that is necessary for dealing with LEO's, but reality is that things in the US have gone crazy enough to make it so. Don't be one of the poor saps that gets a bullet for nothing.


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## keithallenlaw (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*

Couldn't image living where you can't carry a knife. That would stink. 
Glad everything turned out okay. Could have been worse. -keith


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## mega_lumens (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*

It's frustrating with NYPD because they themselves don't know what's legal and not. I had cops tell me before that knives under 3 inches are legal as long as they're not fixed blades and not spring loaded mechanisms. Then other groups of cops will confiscate any type of knife and arrest you for illegal possession. Don't get me started about carrying pepper spray/OC. Some cops will claim it's legal as long as you have some city permit. When you call local precinct and even permit division at police headquarters, a lot of cops are puzzled and never heard of permits for pepper spray. Then you'll hear cops say pepper spray is illegal and you will get arrested. Or it's legal if you buy none "Mace" from a licensed dealer. etc... Basically the laws are so ambiguous and their enforcement is inconsistent that cops in different precincts invent their own legal theories. That's why I don't buy any of this EDC "tacticool" OD green, velcro patched, MOLLE webbed bags, pouches, clothing etc.. I try my best to blend in and not look like that guy from youtube who preps for end of the world. 

God forbid you ever get involved in criminal case or lawsuit, the system will bankrupt you before you taste a sense of justice if ever. The crappiest lawyer will still charge you and arm and a leg and most likely not be able to beat the Goliath of NYC criminal justice system.


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## P_A_S_1 (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*

mega_lumens,
I recall years ago when OC/pepper spray was made 'legal' in NYC for personal protection there was a registration process but I don't recall the details. The spray is illegal and deemed a weapon if used in a criminal/unlawful manner regardless.


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## Grizzman (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*

I'm glad the "stop" didn't go too far South.

I have a Spyderco Endura clipped in my front pocket every day of the year, no matter where I'm located. I've spent roughly 30 days each in NYC and Chicago, and have not been harassed.

It seems a little odd that the police would prefer the knife to be concealed.


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## P_A_S_1 (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*

 10-133
 10-134
 10-134.1

If the above links don't work go to the link below and hit the above listed sections under ADC.
(Title 10 Chapter 1)


http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/lawssrch.cgi?NVLWO:


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## LED S2015 (Jul 5, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*



Grizzman said:


> I'm glad the "stop" didn't go too far South.
> 
> I have a Spyderco Endura clipped in my front pocket every day of the year, no matter where I'm located. I've spent roughly 30 days each in NYC and Chicago, and have not been harassed.
> 
> It seems a little odd that the police would prefer the knife to be concealed.



Yes, those hidden EDC weapons should be highly alerted....


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## BennyBoomBox (Jul 6, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*

Makes me feel pretty thankful to live in Arizona and can carry my EspadaXL around. And good to hear you didn't get hurt OP.


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## lampeDépêche (Jul 6, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*



P_A_S_1 said:


> 10-133
> 10-134
> 10-134.1
> 
> ...




Thank you very much for those links, P A S 1 !

They taught me something I had not known. I had thought that the crackdown on showing a pocket-clip in NYC was the result of a strained interpretation of a "brandishing" statute. But in fact, 10:133c just prohibits open carry of any kind, directly:

" c. It shall be unlawful for any person in a public place, street or park, to wear outside of his or her clothing or carry in open view any
knife with an exposed or unexposed blade unless such person is actually
using such knife for a lawful purpose as set forth in subdivision d of  this section."

So this is not a case where police or prosecutors are pushing the limits of the law. This is a case where the legislators are getting pretty much the result they asked for.

I think it is a bad law. But that's a different kind of situation from the places where police are adopting an unreasonable interpretation of an otherwise unobjectionable law (e.g. the "brandishing" cases--there is good reason to prohibit the hostile display of deadly weapons with intent to intimidate, it's just ridiculous to think that a pocket-clip does that).


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## markr6 (Jul 6, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*

WOW I had NO idea!! Just a little clip showing...I need to keep this in mind when traveling (but I don't do much of that anyway).

Whatever...he knew what it was and just wanted to get a little Zebralight eyecandy


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## D6859 (Jul 6, 2015)

mega_lumens said:


> I said "it's just a flashlight" and pulled it out to show them.



I was entering a night club in Helsinki last winter when the bouncer stopped me and asked me what it was in my pocket (Thrunite TN12 has a silver clip too). I replied just the same way you did. I'm not sure if I stopped to even think about what I was doing when I pulled it out. I tried to do it in non-offensive way though. The bouncer was cool with the light and told that they had had an incident with some bouncer or security guard using OC spray in the night club on his freetime and he had thought I was carrying it too. I'm happy I live in Finland. The bouncer was not gonna shoot me or anything and if he had been a cop he would have been reguired to give me a warning shot first at least. 

It was the first time I was asked about my EDC during the year I've caried it. I also carry M22 in its holster attached to my bag. I've carried the bag in night clubs, bars and on a festival last week and never got asked about it. 

Also, I once forgot a folding knife on my belt when I was renovating friend's apartment and remembered it just when I was about to order a drink in a bar. I told the bouncer what had happened and he let me leave it within my bag in the cloakroom. I think he could have called the cops and cuff me instead. 



Tac Gunner said:


> There was nothing on their prohibited items list about flashlights



Sorry to hear about your experience. At some festivals that I've worked on they list "bright" lights and lasers. I think the idea is that you can't disturb the performer or the audience with the light. I wouldn't let EA4 through the gate either. It's like a small spotlight!


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## besafe2 (Jul 6, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*



Swamplite said:


> When stopped by law enforcement always keep your hands open and away from your body.Eye to eye contact and no sudden moves.The officer will advise you what to do.Compliance with an officers commands would stop almost all of the police involved tragedies.If you feel you are treated unfairly for any reason deal with it after the fact.I very seldom get stopped but if I do I make it a point to follow commands and be extremely polite.My actions have got me out of a couple of moving violations and I'm still breathing.In my 68 years I have never had a problem with any LEO following these tactics.


This x 1000 plus AVOID NYC.


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## ForrestChump (Jul 7, 2015)

mega_lumens said:


> Yesterday I went to watch Macy's July 4th fireworks and then stopped at a bar with friends. On the way home from celebrations around 2 am, I was in the 59th Street Lexington subway station (in NYC.) I saw 2 NYPD officers and passed them, when moments later both of them charged towards me yelling for me to stop, but I didn't realize it was them or someone was yelling at me, so I walked fast paced as I always do to catch my train. One cop rushed around me and I got a bit nervous. Both of them were yelling "what's that in your pocket" pointing to the clip of Zebralight SC32. I said "it's just a flashlight" and pulled it out to show them. But one of the cop got startled and thought I was going to stab him. I felt like one went for his gun as I was pulling the light out. Then they told me that my flashlight clip looks like a knife and it's illegal to walk around with knives, and that I made them nervous for pulling out the flashlight. I was never stopped by police before and plus I wasn't sober so pulling out the flashlight wasn't the best move, but naturally, you just want to "show" that here look, I'm not carrying a weapon....
> 
> With all the tragic stories in the U.S. of cops shooting innocent people over Perceived dangerous items., I'm giving a little rethought on how I should carry my EDC lights without causing suspicion. These days, you can't even carry a multi tool and now a flashlight without raising alarm from police.



If accurate.

This is unacceptable.


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## uofaengr (Jul 7, 2015)

The nanny state, folks. Coming to a city near you at our current pace.


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## reppans (Jul 7, 2015)

Fixed blades (< 4") are good to go in NYC, but keep it concealed - clicky. 

I moved over from a folder to an ESEE Izula neck knife for EDC - legal when I cross the NYS border (I believe the "gravity" clause is a state law) and I prefer the strength and baton-ability of a fixed blade.


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## more_vampires (Jul 7, 2015)

Oh my, sir. Love the Izula. I belt EDC one when I'm not wearing slacks. I prefer inverted carry and it only popped out of the sheath once because I was sliding around on stuff.

Fantastic knife, worth every penny, would buy again. Shorter blade than my palm width. Maker says doweling is ok. Top shelf backup outdoors knife. Prefer a Tru-Bal Bowie Axe (but it's a knife) for primary.


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## yoyoman (Jul 7, 2015)

A little history. NY city rules on knives have always been convoluted and open to interpretation. But ice picks have always been, and I believe are still legal. That's one reason that ice picks were a preferred weapon for mobs, especially the original Murder Incorporated.


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## WarRaven (Jul 7, 2015)

Ear's and noses shall be the trophies of the day!


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## Tac Gunner (Jul 7, 2015)

Love my Izula as well!


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## magellan (Jul 7, 2015)

uofaengr said:


> The nanny state, folks. Coming to a city near you at our current pace.



Talk about a couple of self panickers.


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## uofaengr (Jul 7, 2015)

magellan said:


> Talk about a couple of self panickers.


The cops, you mean?


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## yoyoman (Jul 8, 2015)

Here's an article about ice picks in New York. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/01/nyregion/ice-picks-are-still-used-as-weapons.html?_r=0


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## Str8stroke (Jul 8, 2015)

D6859: "he let me leave it within my bag in the* cloakroom*"

If the room is cloaked, how do you find it? 

Seriously, we can't have Cloaking Devices in the US either.


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## degarb (Jul 8, 2015)

yoyoman said:


> A little history. NY city rules on knives have always been convoluted and open to interpretation. But ice picks have always been, and I believe are still legal. That's one reason that ice picks were a preferred weapon for mobs, especially the original Murder Incorporated.



I would think pushing people into oncoming subway… Now, how to conceal a train?


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## more_vampires (Jul 8, 2015)

Str8stroke said:


> Seriously, we can't have Cloaking Devices in the US either.





> A cloaking robe of elvenkind
> Hangs in my wardrobe behind
> All the things that mother said
> Were proper for a boy
> ...


 Good camo = a robe of elvenkind. A woodland BDU pattern poncho is actually this pseudo magic item.

Besides, we actually DO have thermal and optical active camo/cloaking at this time.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ility-cloak-designed/articleshow/47988459.cms

The Tyranny cannot unconstitutionally stop and frisk what they did not notice!  "Best block, no be there, Daniel-san."


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 8, 2015)

Way off track here, and getting political too. Let's get back to flashlights.

Bill


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## more_vampires (Jul 8, 2015)

Oh, sorry sir. I was simply speaking of my Elven heritage, you see. I've lost 61 pounds from my heaviest and feel immortal now.

I used to have a great friend who had pointed ears IRL. There is a medical name for that, but I don't care. She was my friend. By letter of high elven law, that makes me a half-elf. Really, that is all it takes. A quest for a potion of Rejuvenation is a different story. You should hire all regulars at your local tavern for that. Might actually work.

Evil overlords tend to defeat themselves. It's about the journey, the adventure!

Yeah, I lost a lot of weight and picked up archery again. I feel like I'm 20ish again!!

ON TOPIC: Continual light is called the Pak-Lite Super 9v. It takes skill to maintain this spell. 

Word it up, Bill. Good to see you again! May you have the best, sir!


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## Swamplite (Jul 9, 2015)

I was checking my home state(Louisiana)knife laws and I have determined that I can carry any knife open or concealed as long as it is not a switchblade.We can even open carry firearms in most places.I guess I won't have much trouble clipping a flashlight in my pocket which I do on a daily basis.


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## recDNA (Jul 9, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*



markr6 said:


> WOW I had NO idea!! Just a little clip showing...I need to keep this in mind when traveling (but I don't do much of that anyway).
> 
> Whatever...he knew what it was and just wanted to get a little Zebralight eyecandy


What if it were a pen? I mean really. A clip is not a knife in plain view imo.

"All these stories of cops shooting innocent people"? I haven't heard of any in years. Recently a thief was shot (resulting in more property damage and protests) and a knife wielding terrorist was shot but I can't think of any innocent people shot by leo. A criminal refusing to surrender is not an "innocent" person.


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## more_vampires (Jul 9, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*



recDNA said:


> What if it were a pen? I mean really. A clip is not a knife in plain view imo.



They'd probably call it probable cause and go to town...


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## recDNA (Jul 9, 2015)

*Re: Got stopped by police for Fenix SC32*



more_vampires said:


> They'd probably call it probable cause and go to town...


It's good to know to carry my flashlight in my pocket not clipped as I always do. Sounds like I could be arrested for my keychain carabeener clip that has a 2 inch knife in it? From my reading of that law I'd be guilty too.


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## more_vampires (Jul 9, 2015)

There's knives intended to look like pens clipped to a pocket. The Boker Plus Urban Survival Pen Knife comes to mind. Of course, that thing is so tiny and the glass breaker cap is quite distinctive.

If an "excuse" is sought, it will be located or created. Selective enforcement and tyranny skip hand in hand with a pair of handbaskets on the way to you-know-where.

I was in DC and got hassled by cops for walking down the street wearing motorcycle leathers, asking for directions. I was obviously a stop and search case. Motorcycles, you know. Motorcycles are all criminals, apparently.

Profiling? What's that? 

Anyway, would they freak out over a Foursevens or Olight penlight? Will they lose it and violate the BOR over a nice Cross, Fisher, or Parker?

Looks like a pen, too.


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## D6859 (Jul 12, 2015)

Str8stroke said:


> D6859: "he let me leave it within my bag in the* cloakroom*"
> 
> If the room is cloaked, how do you find it?
> 
> Seriously, we can't have Cloaking Devices in the US either.



Sorry for my poor English. I was referring to cloakroom defined by "a room, in a public building such as a theatre, where coats and other belongings may be left temporarily" given by my dictionary. Getting away from the topic anyway.


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## WarRaven (Jul 12, 2015)

D6859 said:


> Sorry for my poor English. I was referring to cloakroom defined by "a room, in a public building such as a theatre, where coats and other belongings may be left temporarily" given by my dictionary. Getting away from the topic anyway.


Your English is better then mine.

Bud, was toying with the words you had used.

As in cloaking devices, like star trek etc.

So if you were allowed to store said stuff in the cloakroom (Cloaked/concealed room), how do you find a cloaked room?

It's hidden right? ☺


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 12, 2015)

Cloakrooms are used in some high end restaurants to this day, especially in states that have extreme cold weather conditions. Usually there is an attendant taking the overcoats, etc. Let's respect our non US citizens who frequent CPF.

Bill


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## WarRaven (Jul 12, 2015)

Hi Bill, I'm sorry if you see any disrespect here as there is absolutely none being directed by me or other in above context. 

It's light word play in decent taste IMO. 

Apologies to D6859 above if offended by that.


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## FRITZHID (Jul 13, 2015)

Simple solution, keep light in holster that's embroidered with the words "just a flashlight" on it?


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## TEEJ (Jul 13, 2015)

Some of the posts are using words that are the same, but not equivalent.

For example, a flashlight and a gun could both be in a holster, but a cop would not see a flashlight holster and think it was a gun holster, albeit it might be a potential pepper spray, etc, holster.

A clip for a pen would not be perceived as a clip for a knife, because ordinary pen clips simply do not look like ordinary knife clips, or ordinary pepper spray clips. 

The exceptions are not what are being looked for, so if for example a knife maker makes a knife with what looks like a pen clip, as long as no one commits a crime with one, the cops won't be looking for it.


When NYC is on high alert, after the 911 mindset, etc...they ARE looking harder at everyone...and, a clip that might be a knife clip WOULD draw attention. Remember how the authorities were acting about bringing _nail clippers_ on a plane? 

And, of course, they DID see it was a flashlight, and, no, they didn't knock out or incarcerate the inebriated out of country visitor with the flashlight. Had he been a non-melanin challenged minority, or appeared to be of Semitic descent, the story may have ended differently though. 

:candle:


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## markr6 (Jul 13, 2015)

Gray area. I'll cut them some slack.

My briefcase with some paper in it looks exactly like a briefcase full of high explosives.

We've gotten crazy enough, watch them start making knife clips silver/black, and flashlight clips bright orange like the tips of play guns. Oh crap, don't give them any ideas!!


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## more_vampires (Jul 13, 2015)

TEEJ said:


> or appeared to be of Semitic descent, the story may have ended differently though. :candle:



Wait, there's Jewish flashlights? Oy veh! Must have. I bet they run a REEEEEEEEEEEALLY long time on a set of batteries! 

Kosherlumens.com: The Chosen Flashlight.  No bacon was used in the construction of this flashlight.


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## P_A_S_1 (Jul 13, 2015)

TEEJ said:


> .............
> 
> When NYC is on high alert, after the 911 mindset, etc...they ARE looking harder at everyone...and, a clip that might be a knife clip WOULD draw attention. Remember how the authorities were acting about bringing _nail clippers_ on a plane?
> 
> ...




Everyone seems to think 911 is the reason for the strict attention in such incidents and even the politicians and brass will perpetuate this as it insinuates diligence but actually it goes back to the early 1990s when crime in NYC was high and the new mayor (Giulani) took an aggressive stance on getting the city under control. His polices would span 20 years and 2 mayors and drive the PD to constantly fight 'numbers' and drive crime lower and lower. What your average cop would do or what they would stop someone over today verses 20 years ago when these polices and pushes began is night and day. 

As for the last part of your statement, I'm not sure what you saying but if you think people of 'semitic' descent are targeted in NYC by law enforcement then I couldn't disagree more. In fact in some ways and some areas it's actually a 'hands off' policy (unofficially of course).


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## D6859 (Jul 13, 2015)

WarRaven said:


> Apologies to D6859 above if offended by that.



Not at all. I didn't get the joke because I thought the problem of finding the room is not my problem but the bouncer's. Maybe they have a cloaked room, you'll never know...


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## more_vampires (Jul 13, 2015)

D6859 said:


> Maybe they have a cloaked room, you'll never know...



Elves have an automatic chance to notice secret doors. No problem.


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## WarRaven (Jul 13, 2015)

D6859 said:


> Not at all. I didn't get the joke because I thought the problem of finding the room is not my problem but the bouncer's. Maybe they have a cloaked room, you'll never know...


+1 ☺
That is the problem, we may never know.

Have a great one, D 👍


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## Str8stroke (Jul 13, 2015)

I had to google Cloakroom. Being a Trek fan when I hear or read Cloak, my brain only thought one thing. See you learn something everyday. 
Thanks: D6859 for the new word for me.
Thanks: WarRaven for explaining the pun across all language barriers.

Kinda ironic when I think about it. I didn't catch what a Cloak Room was, and some may not have known the Trek cloaking device.

Either way, fun stuff! back on OP topic. 

I don't know of any other places quite like NYC with their knife laws. Is just seeing a pocket clip, enough probable cause to validate a search? Or is it how the questions are answered. Or is it just stop and frisk? I am kinda confused by NYC's views and ones right to privacy in their own possessions.


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## WarRaven (Jul 13, 2015)

Str8stroke said:


> I had to google Cloakroom. Being a Trek fan when I hear or read Cloak, my brain only thought one thing. See you learn something everyday.
> Thanks: D6859 for the new word for me.
> Thanks: WarRaven for explaining the pun across all language barriers.
> 
> ...


Nice.
Edit, and absolutely most welcome sir. 

I've a London Fog Cloak, at least that what I was told to know it as, or in my level of thinking a suits overcoat that is somewhat water repellent. 
I'm pretty dumb about this myself and have probably butchered it some, I would expect to be corrected by a gentleman no doubt. 
+1 to all that got something from this light detailing.
If someone cares to educate me further on my Cloak, a pm may be in order as not upset the balance of things. 

I guess it loosely aligned, cloaked/concerned carry etc ☺


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## wjv (Jul 15, 2015)

Guess I won't bring my Kershaw Cryo to NYC if I ever go there.

I have a pistol carry permit for my State. As a CCW holder I have always felt that it was MY obligation to know the rules and regs for any State / City that I might travel to. I have no sympathy for someone who gets caught in New Jersey with a gun and then says: "I though my Idaho permit was good in NJ". Not today. . . .Not in an age of Google/Bing when you can find out info like that in 30 seconds.

The same applies to knives. When I bought my last knife (The Cryo) I purposely chose it because its blade is < 3 inches, which makes it legal in MOST (but not all) Cities / States. And it's very easy to find out where it is NOT legal.

But honestly I would never give a second though as to how I was carrying a flashlight. I do know that some of the larger lights (like the big MagLites) are illegal to carry in some places (Chicago), but a pocket light is virtually legal everywhere. The only time I make concessions on my EDC light is when I'm flying and I'm taking the light aboard the plane. Then I carry a "AA" light so I don't have to deal with TSA and Lithium-Ion batteries. The scary of the original posting is not that they could charge someone with anything, but rather that they could stop you and use the visible clip as a pretense for a search. Not that I ever have anything illegal on me, but it's just the principal of being searched based on such a bogus pretense.

Oh well. . . Off of the soap box. . .

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programing.


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## keithallenlaw (Jul 16, 2015)

wjv said:


> I have a pistol carry permit for my State. As a CCW holder I have always felt that it was MY obligation to know the rules and regs for any State / City that I might travel to. I have no sympathy for someone who gets caught in New Jersey with a gun and then says: "I though my Idaho permit was good in NJ". Not today. . . .Not in an age of Google/Bing when you can find out info like that in 30 seconds.



I will challenge anyone to find me the law requiring one to have a portable internet device.
"Sorry officer, I honestly didn't know." 

Hell...I don't even have a cell phone.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 16, 2015)

keithallenlaw said:


> I will challenge anyone to find me the law requiring one to have a portable internet device.
> "Sorry officer, I honestly didn't know."
> 
> Hell...I don't even have a cell phone.



?

Bill


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## D6859 (Jul 16, 2015)

Btw, do you happen to know if there's any regulation to how powerful flashlight you can carry? As I posted earlier, at some festivals powerful flashlights are not allowed into the area, but it's not based on any law that I know of. 

These flashlights are like photon cannons nowadays. I thought in my beloved country they'd made some law or regulation to control that madness!


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## FRITZHID (Jul 16, 2015)

D6859 said:


> Btw, do you happen to know if there's any regulation to how powerful flashlight you can carry? As I posted earlier, at some festivals powerful flashlights are not allowed into the area, but it's not based on any law that I know of.
> 
> These flashlights are like photon cannons nowadays. I thought in my beloved country they'd made some law or regulation to control that madness!



Not that I've ever heard of/read. I know there are some "behavioral" laws concerning light usage (not shining into traffic, low flying aircraft, etc), but not on CP. If there were, I'd think they'd come for my maxabeam. I play with that all the time.


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## TEEJ (Jul 16, 2015)

Semitic doesn't mean Jewish anymore than mammal means bear, etc. Its means of middle eastern heritage/ancestry. 

and

You may THINK its "hands off", but, its NOT. They look at a guy who might be middle eastern wearing clothing that might conceal a bomb or weapon a LOT harder than at say a Swedish girl wearing just a bikini....hmmm, as far as suspecting them of terrorism at least.


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## P_A_S_1 (Jul 16, 2015)

Teej, I understand the definition but typically when used it has a narrower meaning. As per the latter it's not what I think, it's a little more intricate then that and not as simply as you may understand it. Regardless, I don't want to do a back and forth with you or take this thread south.


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## more_vampires (Jul 17, 2015)

TEEJ said:


> They look at a guy who might be middle eastern wearing clothing that might conceal a bomb or weapon a LOT harder than at say a Swedish girl wearing just a bikini....hmmm, as far as suspecting them of terrorism at least.



Time for selective enforcement. Stop and frisk is too lenient. Obviously a strip search and photographic evidence case, just in case they THINK about actually committing a crime someday.

That Swedish Bikini Team member is obviously concealing a Death Star in that skimpy 2 piece. Better safe than sorry.


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## nimdabew (Jul 17, 2015)

Tac Gunner said:


> I was told that was not a valid reason and he would have to take it and ask his supervisor if I was allowed to have it. At that point I just told him I would take it back out to my vehicle. There was nothing on their prohibited items list about flashlights and I was polite when speaking with the gentleman so I'm not sure what the big deal was especially since I had never had any trouble before.


It sounds like he wanted a new flashlight to me. I can't wait to get far away from the big city. I moved out to the suburbs for now, but I can't wait to get far away from here too. Alaska is calling my name.


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## P_A_S_1 (Jul 17, 2015)

All this about the Swedish Bikini Team....wonder what type of lights they'd have clipped to their persons


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## FRITZHID (Jul 17, 2015)

P_A_S_1 said:


> All this about the Swedish Bikini Team....wonder what type of lights they'd have clipped to their persons



That don't need lights..... Poparatzi flashes keep them well lit


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## more_vampires (Jul 18, 2015)

I keep thinking that the Pak-lite Super 9v (sans battery) would be the Swedish Bikini Team flashlight. You can always find a partially depleted 9v battery somewhere.


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## P_A_S_1 (Jul 18, 2015)

European swim-ware teams and flashlights remind me of this old Wendy's commercial......

*https://youtu.be/5CaMUfxVJVQ


*


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## k3751 (Jul 18, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Time for selective enforcement. Stop and frisk is too lenient.



No. It's not. "Stop and frisk" is just an inflammatory term for a Terry Stop/Frisk (similar to Obamacare vs. Affordable Care Act). Police are allowed to detain someone given reasonable suspicion they are engaged in criminal activity. They are further authorized to conduct a "Terry" pat-down for weapons with reasonable suspicion the person is armed. Absent reasonable suspicion, an unauthorized stop/search is a violation of the person's 4th amendment rights.

If police, in this case NYPD, are investigating and enforcing laws you don't agree with, don't blame the police, blame the politicians (local, state, federal) that put the laws in place. The people there elected them and got what they asked for. 

Thanks for attending Con Law 101.


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## more_vampires (Jul 19, 2015)

k3751 said:


> If police, in this case NYPD, are investigating and enforcing laws you don't agree with, don't blame the police, blame the politicians (local, state, federal) that put the laws in place. The people there elected them and got what they asked for.



Right on! I'm a Libertarian. You saw my snarky comment. We are of the same mind, sir!


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## k3751 (Jul 19, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Right on! I'm a Libertarian. You saw my snarky comment. We are of the same mind, sir!



:thumbsup:


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## recDNA (Jul 20, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Right on! I'm a Libertarian. You saw my snarky comment. We are of the same mind, sir!


I'm a liberal and I don't agree that a clip in ones pocket constitutes reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. Now if it was a dark alley in a deserted area and the person is peaking in windows that is a different story. In fact I think it is such weak cause that if the person HAD been involved in criminal behavior the unjustified search would be reason for his lawyer to get the case dismissed. In other words this sort of behavior may help a well represented criminal to escape prosecution. Now there could be other circumstances even the person stopped is unaware of...like if you just stopped to ask directions from a known drug dealer etc.

Liberals support civil liberties as well. We just don't believe that everyone should have unlimited and uninvestigated access to firearms. I would not mistake a zl for a weapon. I'm surprised a leo would.


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## more_vampires (Jul 20, 2015)

recDNA said:


> I'm a liberal and I don't agree that a clip in ones pocket constitutes reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.I would not mistake a zl for a weapon. I'm surprised a leo would.



It's not a clip, it's a magazine!  

Once upon a time in Texas, a man who was released from prison was given a horse and a pistol. He's not getting far otherwise. Love me some Texas.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jul 26, 2015)

k3751 said:


> No. It's not. "Stop and frisk" is just an inflammatory term for a Terry Stop/Frisk (similar to Obamacare vs. Affordable Care Act). Police are allowed to detain someone given reasonable suspicion they are engaged in criminal activity. They are further authorized to conduct a "Terry" pat-down for weapons with reasonable suspicion the person is armed. Absent reasonable suspicion, an unauthorized stop/search is a violation of the person's 4th amendment rights.
> 
> If police, in this case NYPD, are investigating and enforcing laws you don't agree with, don't blame the police, blame the politicians (local, state, federal) that put the laws in place. *The people there elected them and got what they asked for.
> *
> Thanks for attending Con Law 101.



Yes they did, less crime due to more criminals being taken off the streets. :twothumbs

~ Chance


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## Swede74 (Jul 26, 2015)

TEEJ said:


> They look at a guy who might be middle eastern wearing clothing that might conceal a bomb or weapon a LOT harder than at say a Swedish girl wearing just a bikini....hmmm, as far as suspecting them of terrorism at least.



I would look much harder at a guy with a Zebralight clipped to his pocket than at a Swedish girl wearing just a bikini. I guess because the former would be a rare and exotic occurrence, whereas the latter is such a mundane and commonplace one.


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## Rider57 (Jul 28, 2015)

Cant see why a cop would stop you for this...


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## D6859 (Jul 28, 2015)

Rider57 said:


> Cant see why a cop would stop you for this...



<add joke about ZebraLight here>


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## more_vampires (Jul 29, 2015)

D6859 said:


> <add joke about ZebraLight here>


<add joke about personal products here>


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## recDNA (Jul 30, 2015)

I just got my new sc32w today. It protrudes enough from my pocket to clearly see it is a cylindrical object. Unless there are knives shaped like tubes I don't see how anyone could mistake an sc32w for a knife.


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## more_vampires (Jul 30, 2015)

recDNA said:


> I just got my new sc32w today. It protrudes enough from my pocket to clearly see it is a cylindrical object. Unless there are knives shaped like tubes I don't see how anyone could mistake an sc32w for a knife.


There are. In NYC, they might decide it's an icepick and it's frisky time. The problem is that they're skipping a warrant and overstepping. I have concern that SCOTUS will look the other way if this is brought before them one day.
[SIZE=+1]4. Right of search and seizure regulated [/SIZE] 


 The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


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## Rider57 (Jul 30, 2015)

Translation : you have the right to not be searched, unless we decide we want to, then you have no right.


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## P_A_S_1 (Jul 30, 2015)

There is a defined difference between 'search' and 'frisk'. The former is for discovery the latter is for safety. There are also legal exceptions to the 4th Amendment in regards to law enforcement such as 'plain view', 'inferred by outside appearance', 'hot pursuit', 'emergency', 'lawful arrest', 'VIK waiver (consent)', 'eminent danger (basically emergency)', and maybe one or two more I'm forgetting.


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## markr6 (Jul 30, 2015)

Geeez, life's hard! :sigh:


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## more_vampires (Jul 30, 2015)

P_A_S_1 said:


> There is a defined difference between 'search' and 'frisk'. The former is for discovery the latter is for safety.



But sir, in the example we are discussing, the LEOs are using a flashlight clip as an excuse for discovery. If they run around searching people for flashlights all day, then they know darn well what one looks like and probably see slightly fewer flashlights than we do here at CPF. We're approaching a slippery slope. They use the flashlight clip for an excuse for both discovery and safety. There would have been no interaction had they decided not to go selective enforcement on some guy with the convenient excuse of a flashlight. Cops have flashlights, they know what one looks like.



P_A_S_1 said:


> There are also legal exceptions to the 4th Amendment in regards to law enforcement such as
> ...
> 'VIK waiver (consent)'


Amendment 5:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; *nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law*; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

The LEOs trash the BOR and hope the victim doesn't know their rights. Simple as that. Them telling you to consent to a random stop and frisk is a violation of both BOR 4 and 5, afaik.

Pulling excuses to skip a warrant with a crooked state/city legislature backing them up...

Have the Supremes heard a case on this yet? They will one day, I hope.


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## more_vampires (Jul 30, 2015)

markr6 said:


> Geeez, life's hard! :sigh:


Yeah, gotta file suit at State or Fed Supreme Court level to get this thrown out, I have a feeling that's what it will take.


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## P_A_S_1 (Jul 30, 2015)

Facts and circumstances, every situation is different. With that said cops 'fish' for activity, it's called being pro active. Sometimes the methods are disagreeable to me and IMO lacks some discretion but if the action is within the scope of the law it stands.


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## more_vampires (Jul 30, 2015)

P_A_S_1 said:


> if the action is within the scope of the law it stands.


In a corporate environment, we called that "sleaze."  Legal, but immoral. Letter of the law, not the spirit of the law. Skirting the law.


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## P_A_S_1 (Jul 30, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> The LEOs trash the BOR and hope the victim doesn't know their rights. Simple as that. Them telling you to consent to a random stop and frisk is a violation of both BOR 4 and 5, afaik.
> 
> .




Don't agree it's a violation as it's been upheld by the courts. BTW, you really wouldn't consent to a stop and potential frisk as it's not your option at that point. Your either 'lawfully' stopped or your not and if you are 'lawfully' stopped your physical compliance is not optional.


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## scs (Jul 30, 2015)

When enforcement is hindered by procedures, folks complain that the law is impractical or ineffective.
When enforcement is simply lax and bad guys are missed, folks criticize and demand stricter enforcement.
When enforcement is overzealous, folks get upset when they're the ones being inconvenienced or whose rights are violated.

Sometimes it's hard if not impossible to achieve a balance to keep everyone happy and safe.


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## more_vampires (Jul 30, 2015)

Okay, let's try "shoe on the other foot." Does the FBI get to stop and frisk NYC LEO for carrying flashlights?


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## P_A_S_1 (Jul 30, 2015)

scs said:


> When enforcement is hindered by procedures, folks complain that the law is impractical or ineffective.
> When enforcement is simply lax and bad guys are missed, folks criticize and demand stricter enforcement.
> When enforcement is overzealous, folks get upset when they're the ones being inconvenienced or whose rights are violated.
> 
> Sometimes it's hard if not impossible to achieve a balance to keep everyone happy and safe.



+1.


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## more_vampires (Jul 30, 2015)

scs said:


> When enforcement is hindered by procedures, folks complain that the law is impractical or ineffective.
> When enforcement is simply lax and bad guys are missed, folks criticize and demand stricter enforcement.
> When enforcement is overzealous, folks get upset when they're the ones being inconvenienced or whose rights are violated.
> 
> Sometimes it's hard if not impossible to achieve a balance to keep everyone happy and safe.



Agree 100%. The problem is when obvious violations are not fixed. New Orleans, for example, likes to fire 40%-60% of their LEO every couple of years... usually the Chief of Police as well. Why? Corruption crackdown.

I've watched NOLA LEO walk down the street with a dixie cup of beer during Mardi Gras parades, going to the patrol car trunk to get a refill. Obviously drunk on duty. Do I get to search his cup for beer? Do I get to confiscate the fifth of liquor in his trunk in the name of public safety? He was breaking the law. He doesn't just have a flashlight, I can see he has a gun as well!

In a lot of ways NOLA LEO seems the exact opposite of NYC LEO. NOLA LEO probably won't go around randomly searching because they don't want to get hurt. In NOLA, that would be perceived as "looking for a fight."


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jul 30, 2015)

mega_lumens said:


> Yesterday I went to watch Macy's July 4th fireworks *and then stopped at a bar *with friends. On the way home from celebrations *around 2 am*, I was in the 59th Street Lexington subway station (in NYC.) I saw 2 NYPD officers and passed them, when moments later both of them charged towards me yelling for me to stop, but *I didn't realize it was them or someone was yelling at me, so I walked fast paced as I always do to catch my train.* One cop rushed around me and *I got a bit nervous*. Both of them were yelling "what's that in your pocket" pointing to the clip of Zebralight SC32. I said "it's just a flashlight" and pulled it out to show them. *But one of the cop got startled and thought I was going to stab him. I felt like one went for his gun as I was pulling the light out. Then they told me that my flashlight clip looks like a knife and it's illegal to walk around with knives, and that I made them nervous for pulling out the flashlight.* I was never stopped by police before and plus *I wasn't sober* so pulling out the flashlight wasn't the best move, but naturally, you just want to "show" that here look, I'm not carrying a weapon....
> 
> With all the tragic stories in the U.S. of cops shooting innocent people over Perceived dangerous items., I'm giving a little rethought on how I should carry my EDC lights without causing suspicion. These days, you can't even carry a multi tool and now a flashlight without raising alarm from police.





more_vampires said:


> *But sir, in the example we are discussing, the LEOs are using a flashlight clip as an excuse for discovery.* If they run around searchhing people for flashlights all day, then they know darn well what one looks like and probably see slightly fewer flashlights than we do here at CPF. We're approaching a slippery slope. They use the flashlight clip for an excuse for both discovery and safety. There would have been no interaction had they decided not to go selective enforcement on some guy with the convenient excuse of a flashlight. Cops have flashlights, they know what one looks like.



Is it possible the two LEOs stopped mega_lumens for some other reason than the clip? Is it possible that they did indeed think it was a knife?

~ Chance


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## wjv (Jul 30, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Okay, let's try "shoe on the other foot." Does the FBI get to stop and frisk NYC LEO for carrying flashlights?



Were the cops wearing their exigent circuspants at the time?


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## more_vampires (Jul 30, 2015)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Is it possible the two LEOs stopped mega_lumens for some other reason than the clip? Is it possible that they did indeed think it was a knife?


Excellent points in bold, sir. Perhaps it would come off less sleazy and more polite and professional to say "Sir, you appear to be publicly intoxicated. We would like to administer some field sobriety tests," rather than "we are about to violate BOR 4 and 5 hoping you've got dope on you." (Or something like that.) Pockets get emptied when they run you in for public drunk anyway. :shrug:

In the past when cops asked me about what I was carrying, they usually added "and I don't need to see it." It struck me as words that could prevent issue. Also: cops absolutely hate it when they find out I have a CCW permit. Search me over a flashlight? Borders on funny. They instantly get nervous for some reason, even though they know full well I'm clean and have never even been arrested before. Convicted felons aren't supposed to have a valid CCW perm.

Also, what if Mega_lumens were deaf and could not hear their shouting? People have been tased for that.


wjv said:


> Are the cops wearing their exigent circuspants at the time?


Lol, shoe on the other foot is always good for a laugh.  When you have flat feet, clown shoes must follow.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jul 30, 2015)

LEO. Tough job. There will always be more than enough bad cops to go around. Be mindful when approached.

~ Chance


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## LGT (Jul 30, 2015)

I've always thought if you're not doing anything wrong, or carrying something illegal, then what's the problem if a LEO searches you, based on their observations, to prevent a crime? 
If they are looking for a knife but find twenty grams of herion, good for them.
Also. The bad LEO's get all the publicity which is driven into our consciousness over and over through multiple media outlets. What about the many, many others that do it right?


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## nagod (Jul 30, 2015)

you were stopped because of the clip.read up on the knife laws of nyc.plus drunk,2 am?you got off light.


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## leon2245 (Jul 31, 2015)

So I'm going to be in NYC next month... think I'll stick with my swiss army tinker & fenix e01. Should be okay, if I keep them deeeeep down in my pocket?

"Flashoholics' lives matter!"


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## mega_lumens (Jul 31, 2015)

nagod said:


> you were stopped because of the clip.read up on the knife laws of nyc.plus drunk,2 am?you got off light.


 Ye I shall thank my lucky stars I wasn't tazed, beaten, chocked or shot. Freedums in America. Now we're even lucky to get off "light" for violating prohibition laws at 2 am? I wasn't aware I lived in Mecca. I wasn't drinking in public, nor was I a stumbling drunk. I had a few drinks on July 4th just like millions of Americans that night. It's very troubling how half of the country thinks it's OK for such absurd style of policing. I think it stems from lack of world travel by our countrymen. We ain't as free as we imagine.


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## nimdabew (Jul 31, 2015)

P_A_S_1 said:


> Facts and circumstances, every situation is different. With that said cops 'fish' for activity, it's called being pro active. Sometimes the methods are disagreeable to me and IMO lacks some discretion but if the action is within the scope of the law it stands.


The easiest answer to this is to not talk to the cops. They are not your friend. They are looking for illegal activity; they can and will stop you, investigate you, cite or arrest you, and then make your life a little uncomfortable or worse. They are not your friends in 90% of interactions.


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## more_vampires (Jul 31, 2015)

mega_lumens said:


> Ye I shall thank my lucky stars I wasn't tazed, beaten, chocked or shot. Freedums in America. Now we're even lucky to get off "light" for violating prohibition laws at 2 am? I wasn't aware I lived in Mecca. I wasn't drinking in public, nor was I a stumbling drunk. I had a few drinks on July 4th just like millions of Americans that night. It's very troubling how half of the country thinks it's OK for such absurd style of policing. I think it stems from lack of world travel by our countrymen. We ain't as free as we imagine.





nimdabew said:


> The easiest answer to this is to not talk to the cops. They are not your friend. They are looking for illegal activity; they can and will stop you, investigate you, cite or arrest you, and then make your life a little uncomfortable or worse. They are not your friends in 90% of interactions.


July 4, I was BBQ-ing with a LEO. I think that's be best interaction you can hope for. If they've got a duty belt on, that's a different ballgame.


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## Rider57 (Jul 31, 2015)

These are my EDC items for work, if i ever get stopped for them i know dam well it wont be for carrying 2 knives as you can clearly see whats a light and whats a knife. Deep pocket carry clips though, i can see where the distinction might blur. 




I live in LA where everything is either heavily regulated or right down illegal. I too wonder if ill get stopped for EDC-ing my light with a deep carry clip when not at work. I dont have to worry about that at work as my knife is legally a tool for my job and therefore cercomvents some of the regulations. Knife laws here are very open to interpretation which sadly almost always happens at the LEOs discretion. 

I guess one could always attach a lanyard that reads "Its a Flashlight" but i guess that would make it even more suspicious ha ha. Or maybe in citys with heavy knife regulations all illegal knifes should come with an orange clip, like the orange caps on bb guns.


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## more_vampires (Jul 31, 2015)

Rider57 said:


> I guess one could always attach a lanyard that reads "Its a Flashlight" but i guess that would make it even more suspicious ha ha. Or maybe in citys with heavy knife regulations all illegal knifes should come with an orange clip, like the orange caps on bb guns.


Don't laugh, England has already done this!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/06/16/first-stab-proof-knife-to-go-on-sale-in-uk.html


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## RedLED (Aug 3, 2015)

mega_lumens said:


> Yesterday I went to watch Macy's July 4th fireworks and then stopped at a bar with friends. On the way home from celebrations around 2 am, I was in the 59th Street Lexington subway station (in NYC.) I saw 2 NYPD officers and passed them, when moments later both of them charged towards me yelling for me to stop, but I didn't realize it was them or someone was yelling at me, so I walked fast paced as I always do to catch my train. One cop rushed around me and I got a bit nervous. Both of them were yelling "what's that in your pocket" pointing to the clip of Zebralight SC32. I said "it's just a flashlight" and pulled it out to show them. But one of the cop got startled and thought I was going to stab him. I felt like one went for his gun as I was pulling the light out. Then they told me that my flashlight clip looks like a knife and it's illegal to walk around with knives, and that I made them nervous for pulling out the flashlight. I was never stopped by police before and plus I wasn't sober so pulling out the flashlight wasn't the best move, but naturally, you just want to "show" that here look, I'm not carrying a weapon....
> 
> With all the tragic stories in the U.S. of cops shooting innocent people over Perceived dangerous items., I'm giving a little rethought on how I should carry my EDC lights without causing suspicion. These days, you can't even carry a multi tool and now a flashlight without raising alarm from police.


And did the wish you a happy we are free day and tell you they were sorry. I light them up, but California any more is arresting people for the most little of things.

Just wait until one of them deems the light too bright for a civilian, no need for that, officer safety and all. Rest assured the day is coming when your 1000 lumen light will be like automatic knives LEO Only. 
Plus they are not like fire arms, they will just keep them. 

I just read a story on The Associates Press Wire about some city where the cops were stopping people and taking what ever they wanted, even things legal. Drudge may have it archived.


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## uofaengr (Aug 3, 2015)

RedLed said:


> And did the wish you a happy we are free day and tell you they were sorry. I light them up, but California any more is arresting people for the most little of things.
> 
> Just wait until one of them deems the light too bright for a civilian, no need for that, officer safety and all. Rest assured the day is coming when your 1000 lumen light will be like automatic knives LEO Only.
> Plus they are not like fire arms, they will just keep them.
> ...



I've thought about this too. Some person(s) or group will use multiple high powered flashlights with strobe or something equally ridiculous to disorient some officers or something in a huge crime the media will latch onto, and your govt will spend billions of dollars in "research" to deem what is safe for a civilian to have. Strobes will be banned first, and you'll be allowed to have about 65 lumens max on your person.


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## markr6 (Aug 3, 2015)

Flashlight lives matter!


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## RedLED (Aug 4, 2015)

uofaengr said:


> I've thought about this too. Some person(s) or group will use multiple high powered flashlights with strobe or something equally ridiculous to disorient some officers or something in a huge crime the media will latch onto, and your govt will spend billions of dollars in "research" to deem what is safe for a civilian to have. Strobes will be banned first, and you'll be allowed to have about 65 lumens max on your person.


We better stock up now. The good thing is there are people who know how to make these lights, our kind will have to go underground. Don't think for a minute next to the breathalyzer, will be a simple light meter to check the brightness.

the flashlight community needs a lobby, not the industry, Surefire and other companies sell millions of lights to the layers upon layers of cops in all agencies, we are a minor fraction of their business, and they have no reason what so ever to look out for us.


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## RedLED (Aug 4, 2015)

There is no mistaking a flashlight for a knife, you can see the round tube, they know what it is. I have had hassles since 1971 on mini bikes from the CHP. I mean, come on mini bikes, pocket knives, flash lights. 

It is nice to see some of you talking about the constitution, however, I feel it was crumpled up and tossed years ago. Look at the news today.


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 4, 2015)

Getting a little too much political her. Tone it down.

Bill


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## recDNA (Aug 4, 2015)

Maybe we better prepare... we need CPF to move to the dark web... buy up some old closed amusement parks in the seediest areas of towns throughout the country.... we can sneak around in the dark and light up each other with penlights ... we'll need a secret handshake... our own tv show...we can fight Evil Corp together!


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## RetroTechie (Aug 4, 2015)

RedLed said:


> I just read a story on The Associates Press Wire about some city where the cops were stopping people and taking what ever they wanted, even things legal. Drudge may have it archived.


"Civil forfeiture" aka armed robbery. And no I'm not exaggerating there, in case of doubt: look up the definition of "robbery"! The word "controversial" should be written bold and in all-caps when describing this practice.

And very much on-topic here. After all, if those cops had taken mega_lumens' ZebraLight from him, what recourse would he have had? Fill out some forms? File a complaint? Hire a lawyer? When no crime is proven (or even suggested :duh2: ), such actions are theft, plain and simple (and under threat of lethal force, no less).

Crime prevention: fine. Finding more efficient ways to combat crime after it happened: fine. But in the process, LE should be held _at least_ to the same standards everyone else is held to. If not, LE quickly starts to look like just one the many criminal gangs out there. If that's not bad enough: a taxpayer-funded one... :shakehead


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## scout24 (Aug 4, 2015)

Back in post 12, I opined as to why the OP was stopped. I think the thread title is misleading. If he had been waving the light around on max and causing a disturbance or using it to intimidate people, the thread title is far more appropriate. He was stopped for having an item clipped to his pocket, which is just cause in NYC for a friendly or not so friendly depending on YOUR response "Hi, what's that? Where are you going? What are you doing?". In a city, the local beat cops like knowing what is going on in their area. Like it or not. Agree or not. Irrelevant. I've shown some of my high power stuff to cops I work with, and the across the board response has been "Cool! Who makes that? How much?". I think with courtesy and common sense, some of the issues raised here will never come to pass. Amazed this lasted this many pages, speaks to the adult approach we have here on CPF... Carry On!!!


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## ForrestChump (Aug 12, 2015)

scout24 said:


> Back in post 12, I opined as to why the OP was stopped. I think the thread title is misleading. If he had been waving the light around on max and causing a disturbance or using it to intimidate people, the thread title is far more appropriate. He was stopped for having an item clipped to his pocket, which is just cause in NYC for a friendly or not so friendly depending on YOUR response "Hi, what's that? Where are you going? What are you doing?". In a city, the local beat cops like knowing what is going on in their area. Like it or not. Agree or not. Irrelevant. I've shown some of my high power stuff to cops I work with, and the across the board response has been "Cool! Who makes that? How much?". I think with courtesy and common sense, some of the issues raised here will never come to pass. Amazed this lasted this many pages, speaks to the adult approach we have here on CPF... Carry On!!!




Dude, 

I agree with 99.9% of your posts off memory...

The guy was stopped for a flashlight that was clipped to his pocket.

:fail:

There is no other perspective or angle. This is unacceptable and I believe illegal not to mention an obviously huge overstep by the LEO.

Did OP handle it the best? No... But there should have been nothing to talk about in the first place.

9/10 times Im on the LEO side of things, the crap they go through is amazing not to mention remaining composed, serve the people _and_ maintain that 6th Cop sense on the daily must be a tremendous responsibility, but this was a joke. 

Whats he suppose to do? Wear an external transparent pocket protector on his shirt? The title was 100% accurate.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Aug 12, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Dude,
> 
> I agree with 99.9% of your posts off memory...
> *
> ...



Al we really know is what OP stated. This is commonly called _one side of the story. _Perhaps the two LEO's involved might have a somewhat different take on the reason/reasons that caused them to stop OP. 

~ Chance


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## ForrestChump (Aug 12, 2015)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Al we really know is what OP stated. This is commonly called _one side of the story. _Perhaps the two LEO's involved might have a somewhat different take on the reason/reasons that caused them to stop OP.
> 
> ~ Chance




Good point.

I think I mentioned back a few posts " If OP's story is accurate, this is unacceptable. "

Should have tossed in a disclaimer, but this time round forgot and took his side as the truth, as it very well could be, but then again OP was drinking.

I stand corrected......maybe?


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## scout24 (Aug 12, 2015)

Does not matter if you have a ballpoint pen clipped to your pocket. Or a note from your grandmother wishing you a happy birthday. In NYC, like it or not, it's grounds for an investigative detention, AKA a "Terry Stop" (google it...  ) if there is anything clipped to your pocket. Stuffed animal, lucky rabbit's foot, etc. Please read my post where I said "item". Can it be used as an excuse to stop someone? Yes. Have I walked past NYC cops with things clipped to my pocket? Yes. It's a tool, and an effective one. It may have been a flashlight, but that is not what he was stopped for. He was stopped for the clip, my friends.  Or perhaps more accurately, the clip was used as a reason to stop him.

Edit- There is always the option of unclipping and tucking into a pocket alongside your wallet, like I routinely do with whatever knife and light I'm edc'ing in Gotham. No sense drawing attention. One can always carry in a messenger bag, dayplanner, etc. Or vote with their feet and wallet and go to more clip-friendly jurisdictions for work, entertainment, etc.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 12, 2015)

scout24 said:


> Does not matter if you have a ballpoint pen clipped to your pocket. Or a note from your grandmother wishing you a happy birthday. In NYC, like it or not, it's grounds for an investigative detention, AKA a "Terry Stop" (google it...  ) if there is anything clipped to your pocket. Stuffed animal, lucky rabbit's foot, etc. Please read my post where I said "item". Can it be used as an excuse to stop someone? Yes. Have I walked past NYC cops with things clipped to my pocket? Yes. It's a tool, and an effective one. It may have been a flashlight, but that is not what he was stopped for. He was stopped for the clip, my friends.  Or perhaps more accurately, the clip was used as a reason to stop him.
> 
> Edit- There is always the option of unclipping and tucking into a pocket alongside your wallet, like I routinely do with whatever knife and light I'm edc'ing in Gotham. No sense drawing attention. One can always carry in a messenger bag, dayplanner, etc. Or vote with their feet and wallet and go to more clip-friendly jurisdictions for work, entertainment, etc.




I don't think a clip qualifies as "A reasonable suspicion of involvement in criminal activity but short of probable cause to arrest."

Drinking is legal, clipping things to my pocket is legal. I think detaining someone simply for doing both simultaneously is ludicrous and should be illegal unless there was 
more to the story like op was drunk in public or carried himself in an unusual manner ect.... But as mentioned, we all weren't there so I guess I'll leave it at that.


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## FRITZHID (Aug 12, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> I don't think a clip qualifies as "A reasonable suspicion of involvement in criminal activity but short of probable cause to arrest."
> 
> Drinking is legal, clipping things to my pocket is legal. I think detaining someone simply for doing both simultaneously is ludicrous and should be illegal unless there was
> more to the story like op was drunk in public or carried himself in an unusual manner ect.... But as mentioned, we all weren't there so I guess I'll leave it at that.



Agreed and well said.


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## Search (Aug 12, 2015)

In NYC carrying a knife is illegal. Cops see a clip that looks like a knife clip. It was in fact a light. How many people besides yourselves carry lights? Realistically tell me just how many people actually carry a light clipped in their pocket compared to people with knives. I'm a flashaholic and my first thought when I see a clip is a knife. The cops yelled for him and he kept walking (fast in his own words) away from them. Before we take that out of context.. I'm not saying he was wrong or ignoring that he said he didn't know they were talking to him (it happens).. but he did in fact actually keep walking away, fast. His words not mine.

So it instantly looks like he 1) has a knife and 2) is walking away from them. What would it look like to anyone else? Also, here is a little tid bit to everyone from my time working at the PD.. when a cop asks you whats in your pocket do not ever reach for it. If a cop asks you if you have a weapon.. do not reach for it. If he asks you if you have drugs in the car.. don't be like the one guy on a traffic stop and actually reach for it (true story, he was a moron).

From a law enforcement standpoint it was a completely legal encounter. Completely reasonable too. They had reasonable suspicion to believe he had a knife and walked up to talk to investigate. They didn't ask him to put his hands up nor did they attempt to detain him. It isn't even slightly surprising that they jumped back when he reached for it. Cops all the time ask people what's in their pocket, the person realized they're caught, and then they grab a knife or a gun and try to fight their way out of it. It's common sense really.

Keep carrying your lights. Keep your encounters with cops that think their knives on a reasonable level. Life will revolve as it's supposed to.

**Edit Uhhh gravity knives are illegal. Which most are clipped on. Not all knives are illegal but I'm not familiar enough with the laws to start preaching.


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## FRITZHID (Aug 13, 2015)

Search said:


> In NYC carrying a knife is illegal. Cops see a clip that looks like a knife clip. It was in fact a light. How many people.....n..





At that point.... Your point is moot.

This shouldn't be an issue in this country!
Our country is becoming a police state!
Hell, how long before "they" limit lumens???


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## Search (Aug 13, 2015)

FRITZHID said:


> At that point.... Your point is moot.
> 
> This shouldn't be an issue in this country!
> Our country is becoming a police state!
> Hell, how long before "they" limit lumens???



I'm just explaining how I saw the situation from a LE point of view. NYC laws are NYC laws. I can't really do much more than say the flashlight clip more than likely looked like a knife clip and they stopped him for that. 

I can't say I disagree with you at all, but that's a derailing topic. Your last sentence should be somewhat worrying though because I can already see law being written. I hope I never see that day.


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## FRITZHID (Aug 13, 2015)

Search said:


> I'm just explaining how I saw the situation from a LE point of view. NYC laws are NYC laws. I can't really do much more than say the flashlight clip more than likely looked like a knife clip and they stopped him for that.
> 
> I can't say I disagree with you at all, but that's a derailing topic. Your last sentence should be somewhat worrying though because I can already see law being written. I hope I never see that day.



Agreed.


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## Hammerdown (Aug 13, 2015)

recDNA said:


> I just got my new sc32w today. It protrudes enough from my pocket to clearly see it is a cylindrical object. Unless there are knives shaped like tubes I don't see how anyone could mistake an sc32w for a knife.


I would move


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## Lantern32 (Aug 13, 2015)

mega_lumens said:


> Yesterday I went to watch Macy's July 4th fireworks and then stopped at a bar with friends. On the way home from celebrations around 2 am, I was in the 59th Street Lexington subway station (in NYC.) I saw 2 NYPD officers and passed them, when moments later both of them charged towards me yelling for me to stop, but I didn't realize it was them or someone was yelling at me, so I walked fast paced as I always do to catch my train. One cop rushed around me and I got a bit nervous. Both of them were yelling "what's that in your pocket" pointing to the clip of Zebralight SC32. I said "it's just a flashlight" and pulled it out to show them. But one of the cop got startled and thought I was going to stab him. I felt like one went for his gun as I was pulling the light out. Then they told me that my flashlight clip looks like a knife and it's illegal to walk around with knives, and that I made them nervous for pulling out the flashlight. I was never stopped by police before and plus I wasn't sober so pulling out the flashlight wasn't the best move, but naturally, you just want to "show" that here look, I'm not carrying a weapon....
> 
> With all the tragic stories in the U.S. of cops shooting innocent people over Perceived dangerous items., I'm giving a little rethought on how I should carry my EDC lights without causing suspicion. These days, you can't even carry a multi tool and now a flashlight without raising alarm from police.



It is illegal to carry a foldable knife in your pocket in the United States? I thought that it was legal as long as the knife wasn't an automatic one (Blade slides out when you press button)


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## ForrestChump (Aug 13, 2015)

FRITZHID said:


> Agreed and well said.



Thank you Sir.


:hahaha:




Hammerdown said:


> I would move


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## joelbnyc (Aug 13, 2015)

Lantern32 said:


> It is illegal to carry a foldable knife in your pocket in the United States? I thought that it was legal as long as the knife wasn't an automatic one (Blade slides out when you press button)



I think this has been discussed earlier in the thread, each state and locality has different and often contradictory knife laws, and large cities tend to be particularly strict.

NYC had a terrible crime wave in the 1980's through early 90's, the Crack epidemic. The NYPD implemented a controversial policing strategy known as "Broken Windows" policing, the thought is that if you crack down on the minor infractions like drinking in public, fare hopping, marijuana, you will roll up the big criminals as well. The city was desperate, NYC in the 80's was a war zone, gangs using guns, knives, even box cutters and the like as weapons messed things up for law abiding citizens.

Today it's one of the safest large cities in the world, but the numerous police stops like the one that happened to OP have become highly controversial, it's definitely out of hand, officers have an unofficial quota of arrests to make every month, walking around with a clip on your pocket is an excellent way to get targeted.

On the other hand, the LEO's are following orders, NYPD are mostly extremely professional, polite, well trained, and many are heroic as shown by 9/11. They are always on high alert July 4, and this past July 4 was an elevated terror attack risk, well publicized.

Anyway, the silly interpretation of knife laws is under debate, a bill was just introduced to make normal folding knives clearly legal, stalled in the State Senate but plans on reintroducing it.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...altimore-Death-Police-Maryland-305378461.html
"Last year, Democratic Assemblymember Dan Quart, who represents the Upper East Side, introduced a bill that would have changed New York state law, requiring some criminal intent for a gravity knife to be deemed illegal. The bill passed the Assembly but stalled in the Senate.
Quart reintroduced the bill this year. It is awaiting a vote."

As for being on topic, it seems pretty relevant, people carry flashlights with clips, 1/20th or so of the USA population is in the NY Metro area, many more visit for business or pleasure, and the interests of flashlight carriers and pocketknife carriers have significant overlap.


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## scout24 (Aug 13, 2015)

Forrest- I respectfully disagree. A clip is reasonable suspicion if items normally associated with a clip are illegal in your jurisdiction. As I said, it's a tool as much as anything. A reason to stop and talk to someone. Which is all that apparently happened... As soon as it was determined the OP was not breaking any laws, he was allowed to continue with his morning.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 13, 2015)

scout24 said:


> Forrest- I respectfully disagree. A clip is reasonable suspicion if items normally associated with a clip are illegal in your jurisdiction. As I said, it's a tool as much as anything. A reason to stop and talk to someone. Which is all that apparently happened... As soon as it was determined the OP was not breaking any laws, he was allowed to continue with his morning.




I don't know man. Your avatar is making me pretty nervous.....:nana:


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## more_vampires (Aug 13, 2015)

...so in protest we make a chainmail shirt out of pocket clips...


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## ForrestChump (Aug 13, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> ...so in protest we make a chainmail shirt out of pocket clips...



We can print T-Shirts and bumper stickers and make millions...

*CLIPS NOT CUFFS!
*


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## Search (Aug 13, 2015)

It's a strange time when flashlight hobbyists begin to rebel against the system haha


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## FRITZHID (Aug 13, 2015)

Search said:


> It's a strange time when flashlight hobbyists begin to rebel against the system haha



I wish that were true. o.o


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## more_vampires (Aug 13, 2015)

Search said:


> It's a strange time when flashlight hobbyists begin to rebel against the system haha





FRITZHID said:


> I wish that were true. o.o



It's dark times when flashlight hobbyists begin to rebel against the Empire.

Fixed that for you.


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## Search (Aug 13, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> It's dark times when flashlight hobbyists begin to rebel against the Empire.
> 
> Fixed that for you.



.. I'm actually ashamed of myself


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## more_vampires (Aug 13, 2015)

If there is ever a list of "banned flashlights" anywhere, ever... please link me to it so I may complete the collection. 

Outlaw flashlights and only outlaws will have flashlights... (and the LEOs.)


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## recDNA (Aug 13, 2015)

They already are banned...sort of. Go out to a playground or parking lot after dark with a really bright thrower and see if you attract leo's when you shine it on distant objects. I usually do! LOL


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## more_vampires (Aug 13, 2015)

recDNA said:


> They already are banned...sort of. Go out to a playground or parking lot after dark with a really bright thrower and see if you attract leo's when you shine it on distant objects. I usually do! LOL


Okay buddy, got a permit for that HID? Lemme see some id. Also, totally going to search you because I can see you're open-carrying a light. (tongue in cheek)


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## recDNA (Aug 13, 2015)

LOL. The police were nice. Just told me to go away because I was scaring people. I purposely avoid pointing at houses but they must see a tree light up and find it threatening. I was playing with one of those old Walmart HID's. It had great throw. LOL


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## fresh eddie fresh (Aug 13, 2015)

RedLed said:


> I just read a story on The Associates Press Wire about some city where the cops were stopping people and taking what ever they wanted, even things legal. Drudge may have it archived.



When I young a friend of mine's father was a police officer, and that kid had all sorts of things his dad took off of people... knives, fireworks, you name it. I'm pretty sure most of the time when they confiscate something it does not get processed through official channels.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Aug 13, 2015)

*#BLACKCLIPSARN'TCRIMINAL


*​~ Chance


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## SuPpAvIlLiN (Aug 13, 2015)

Yea. That's why I would never move to NY.


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## recDNA (Aug 13, 2015)

That and Yankee fans


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## more_vampires (Aug 13, 2015)

SuPpAvIlLiN said:


> Yea. That's why I would never move to NY.


NY is one thing, NYC is a whole separate level of insanity.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 13, 2015)

recDNA said:


> LOL. The police were nice. Just told me to go away because I was scaring people. I purposely avoid pointing at houses but they must see a tree light up and find it threatening. I was playing with one of those old Walmart HID's. It had great throw. LOL




The park thing is a little on the ruckus side of things. Im shy with my lights generally but am starting to use the neighborhood street more. 

In regards to your statement, thats more a "disturbing the piece" thing... a bright light in a public park at night isn't really that common and If I were LEO would absolutely check it out. Picture you're a single Mom sitting at home late next to a park that occasionally has some" less than desirables "from time to time. This time theres a dude with a bright light and he lights up your tree.... I can see why they would shoo you off. 

Not that what you did was wild or particulary bad in anyway, its just unusual and ALL parks at night occasionally get people doing undesirable things. I got a small park 50 yards away. One house on one side has that neighbor you see in the movies....waves at everyone, talks too long, is EVERYWHERE all the time - seems to almost be homeless he's out so much. Then on the other side there was a house just broken into, the residents are generous people that deal with therapy and at risk youth an whatnot. So anywho once in awhile I catch the EVERYWHERE neighbor shooing the kids away occasionally and for what ever reason they like to show their ID that they live there and think it earns them the right to be a loud underage group of drunk kids by 2 houses at 11PM. I get real annoyed but was one of those kids once, only I always used discretion when i was doing my thing, I hate kids that "advertise" it. Alone, around people, I didn't care, I was drinking because I loved it, but didn't go out of my way to show it......'so stupid you get pinched then you can't drink more? WTH? ...... ANYWHO - I walk over as the talker neighbor is always challenged, I look at all of them right in the eyes and start clapping LOUD like a gym coach telling them "I did the same thing but they're to loud and need to * off and play somewhere else". If they're not fast enough I get up behind them and clap louder and raise my voice just like a gym coach.... works every time! I get a kick out of it....it's like a muscle memory thing for underaged drinkers.....between the boose and the subliminal gym coach thing they just can't fight it.


Morale of the story, "If they're young and you know it clap your hands!"


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## scout24 (Aug 13, 2015)

I'm very happy that the tone of this has seemingly changed. You're all.a good group of folks.  Except you, you know who you are... (kidding!!!) If you want to see some "Bright lights in the city park" videos, check out our own member "Patriot" and his Youtube channel. Awesome stuff... SR90, HID, etc. Worth a view...


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## ForrestChump (Aug 13, 2015)

scout24 said:


> I'm very happy that the tone of this has seemingly changed. You're all.a good group of folks.  *Except you,* you know who you are... (kidding!!!) If you want to see some "Bright lights in the city park" videos, check out our own member "Patriot" and his Youtube channel. Awesome stuff... SR90, HID, etc. Worth a view...




:wave:


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## Search (Aug 13, 2015)

scout24 said:


> I'm very happy that the tone of this has seemingly changed. You're all.a good group of folks.  Except you, you know who you are... (kidding!!!) If you want to see some "Bright lights in the city park" videos, check out our own member "Patriot" and his Youtube channel. Awesome stuff... SR90, HID, etc. Worth a view...



It would be boring if we all got along. But every argument needs respect. There aren't enough people collecting flashlights to turn on each other. 

.. especially when times go dark and they come for our lights :tinfoil:


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## ForrestChump (Aug 13, 2015)

Search said:


> *It would be boring if we all got along. But every argument needs respect.* There aren't enough people collecting flashlights to turn on each other.
> 
> .. especially when times go dark and they come for our lights :tinfoil:



Im HUGE on this.

From someone who debates a lot ( I just call it like I see it without much regard of peoples "feelings" , although I make an effort to do it tactfully, facts are more important ) I always try and make an effort to do it with respect and Im pretty sure I don't have a single post that is disrespectful despite personal attacks and whatnot just cause Im not in love with your brand. - ( Feel free to prove me wrong? Really. I may be incorrect.)


This is how a forum works.....it's and exchange of ideas, and quite often all of our ideas aren't the same. Plus, everyone is entitled to their wrong opinion until I correct them. 

Now Im WAY OT.


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## scout24 (Aug 13, 2015)

It wasn't you, Forrest. Kidding! No humor or sarcasm font here, I've looked...  Respect for other opinions, understanding cultural differences and language differences, etc. Big happy family.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 13, 2015)

scout24 said:


> It wasn't you, Forrest. Kidding! No humor or sarcasm font here, I've looked...  Respect for other opinions, *understanding cultural differences and language differences,* etc. Big happy family.




Thats the one that catches me off guard..... as some of these non USA folks have excellent english and typing skills I can't even tell.... but sometimes it simply just comes across as unintentionally rude or kind of belligerent. But like I said, most have better typing skillz then myself which makes it super confusing as I can't tell english is not there first language.


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## Search (Aug 13, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Thats the one that catches me off guard..... as some of these non USA folks have excellent english and typing skills I can't even tell.... but sometimes it simply just comes across as unintentionally rude or kind of belligerent. But like I said, most have better typing skillz then myself which makes it super confusing as I can't tell english is not there first language.



I had a long conversation with a guy yesterday who was going to sell my something I've been hunting. Until he told me the cost of shipping was almost the cost of the light. Couldn't even fathom who he pissed off to get rates that high until he explained he lived in Korea. Never saw it coming.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 13, 2015)

HA...Whats sad though is people outside the US are used to paying INSANE shipping fees and taxes. Also we're pretty close with Korea. There're like our brother from another mother. Could have been an American but not likely as he didn't raise the issue of shipping. Im under the impression english is fairly popular there. I think? 




Wonder if they are allowed to carry flashlights there without being interrogated? If so what a luxury!

Sincerely,

THE USA



:mecry:


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## Robocop (Aug 14, 2015)

I must say this thread has moved along nicely and it is good to see discussions without anger and over the top comments. Of course as many can see by my user name I am an officer and as such will usually side with the police. Yes in my 18 years on patrol I have seen some officers overstep their authority however these officers were very few and far between. They also always self destruct and are weeded out pretty quickly.

In todays times most every large department has in car video as well as body cameras. These cameras are activated on each and every call and as such my entire days activities are well documented with audio and video. Police misconduct does exist of course however it is becoming much lesser of a problem as time moves forward.

If you actually consider the hundreds of thousands of contacts nationwide each day then look at the percentage of minor complaints filed for each day the ratio is very low. If you then look at the actual police involved shootings each day or even complaints of improper force used the ratio is even smaller when compared to the actual amount of citizen contacts.

I would like to explain one thing about officers that most citizens do not realize. By the time an officer graduates their academy training they have seen hundreds of videos in training. These videos often show officers being killed on routine interactions with citizens. It is drilled into each recruits mind that no contact is routine and as such there is a sense of fear on most days working. Recently I watched a video in training showing two officers responding to a 15 year old kid who had punched his father. The father was not injured however called police to speak with his disorderly son.

Their car video showed them arrive to find the kid standing in the yard with his fists clenched. The kid was maybe 135 lbs and both officers over 200 lbs easy. As they began to try and speak with the child he just suddenly went crazy swinging his fists wildly. The video showed both officers trying to take it easy on the kid as he was really not big enough to hurt them. They grabbed at him a few times and tried to hold him without hurting him and this went on for about 15 seconds. Suddenly one officer crumpled to the ground with a gunshot wound under his chin. Yep this harmless kid had somehow took the officers weapon from his holster during the struggle and shot him.

The other officer of course shot the kid and killed him however in the end you now have two dead persons. If both officers would have reacted quickly and harshly at the first sign of trouble there would have been no death. Maybe some bruises or feelings hurt or a complaint filed but no death. Now of course any officer watching that video is going to be very jumpy each time they are confronted with force as they have seen the worst that can happen. Now of course these situations are rare however again should any officer roll the dice and take a chance?

The poster here said the officer was startled when he suddenly pulled out his light to show him as if he thought he were going to be stabbed. Yes there are training videos showing officers simply talking to people when they are suddenly stabbed or shot. I have seen videos of very normal looking people just going crazy in a split second and I am sure these officers have seen the same. I saw a video of a 72 year old woman stab an officer in the neck after he found her walking in the middle of traffic. Yes she was suffering from dementia and appeared harmless however freaked out as soon as he touched her trying to get her out of the road. Nothing about this old lady looked to be a threat and he never saw the little kitchen knife she had in her hand. He lived however will most likely become very cautious when dealing with anyone from now on.

Yes mistakes happen and yes sometimes people may be stopped by police for mistakes or minor violations. The end result is usually a few moments of their time and they are on their way. Maybe one of these officers had been assaulted in the past and was a little jumpy however from what I read here it seems like the officers explained why they stopped him and also why he made them nervous. No harm here really and everyone went home happy it seems. I myself have been approached by police while off duty and questioned.

I was walking last winter when suddenly I hear from behind "you there in the gray coat stop" Two officers ran up from behind me and both looked very excited. One officer said " I bet this is our guy" and I said I have no idea who you are looking for however it is not me. I then held my hands out to my side and said I do have a weapon. One officer quickly drew his gun as the other cuffed me asking where my weapon was. He then raised my coat and saw my gun and badge. Of course he removed the cuffs and apologized. Turns out moments before they saw me a big dude with a bald head and gray coat assaulted a man nearby. I fit the description so naturally they detained me.

The officer kept saying he was sorry and asked why I did not say I was an officer. I replied simply because even if I did he should not believe anyone who says that until he knows he is safe. Any criminal can claim anything and I had no problem with him cuffing me before he saw my weapon and badge as that is textbook safety procedure. You always cuff first then search. Even if someone says to me they are an officer and I don't know them yes they get cuffed first until I can verify my safety. Not sure if they ever found the guy they wanted however after a few minutes I was on my way. In no way was I angry for having a weapon drawn on me nor for being cuffed. That was simply cops doing their job and being safe.

Yes again there are some officers out there that are on some type of weird power trip. Trust me real cops do not like these types any more than citizens do as they give us all a bad reputation. A few bad incidents will fuel the fire nationwide and this makes it very hard for all other hard working officers as their good deeds are never noticed. Our number one complaint is with citizens who file complaints stating they were offended by an officers actions. It is often the result of an officer drawing their weapon or even placing their hand on their weapon when approaching a traffic stop. I have heard it a thousand times...."I am not a criminal officer why do you have your hand on your gun" Of course this is usually after they attempted to open their door as I approached or they are reaching in their glove box for their papers.

Then they go on to say I scared them as they thought they were going to be shot. Well I thought the same as I have seen officers killed when walking up to a traffic stop. Yes of course 99 percent of the time they are a decent person in real life.....a mother....a father....a doctor....a teacher...however for those first few unknown seconds they may be that person who is going to shoot me in the face as I approach. I am not defending bad officers nor will I ever do so. I am simply trying to defend all other decent officers who may offend someone as they are trying to stay safe.

I can go on for hours on this subject as it is near and dear to me however I always write way too much once I get going. Sorry so long winded however again I am very passionate on this subject. To the op I hope you took no ill feelings away from your encounter with police and I also hope my post may help you to feel a little better about it if you did. It is nice to see members here discussing touchy topics without becoming rude or angry and I appreciate the input and effort to do so.

Ok I have to stop writing such long posts and sorry again if it dragged on.....just imagine in two years I can retire. Not sure yet if I will however if I do I will have nothing to do except lurk here and write all kinds of long winded posts. Enjoyed the read gentlemen and say hello to your local cops sometimes.


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## Me+Light=Addiction (Aug 14, 2015)

Great write-up Robocop. Always nice to get the perspective from someone with experience. Keep up the long stories, I find them very interesting!


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## markr6 (Aug 14, 2015)

Me+Light=Addiction said:


> Great write-up Robocop. Always nice to get the perspective from someone with experience. Keep up the long stories, I find them very interesting!



+1!!


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## more_vampires (Aug 14, 2015)

Robocop said:


> Ok I have to stop writing such long posts and sorry again if it dragged on.....just imagine in two years I can retire. Not sure yet if I will however if I do I will have nothing to do except lurk here and write all kinds of long winded posts. Enjoyed the read gentlemen and say hello to your local cops sometimes.


Lol, no, you're the voice of reason!  Excellence in essay.

Just wanted to add: In these days of instant global communication, search, plus the nature of the news media, the kind of events we are discussing WILL turn up even if it only happened once or twice in a year. This skews perception, subconsciously making people think that it "happens all the time." Looking at the per-capita incidents might reveal that this sort of thing "barely happens."

Used to be a newscaster running an Associated Press feed. "If it bleeds, it leads." Don't forget the AP is playing up sensationalism and their SOP is to try to incite riots and make people angry. AP is a big fat troll.


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## recDNA (Aug 14, 2015)

It really was a great explanation. I was recently stopped for a traffic violation but the officer took a long time before walking up to my car. It was a really long time like 10 minutes. I guess they check you out in the computer or something? Anyway I was bored to I went in the glove compartment to search for my registration. The officer's reaction was fine but he did explain why I should never do that again. Then I got no ticket so I was delighted. No harm no foul. Reading your post really brings home I should have just sat there. It's amazing how long 10 minutes seems when you're nervous.


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## wjv (Aug 17, 2015)

Robocop said:


> Yep this harmless kid had somehow took the officers weapon from his holster during the struggle and shot him.



I know a lot of cops don't like using the Level II or Level III security holsters because they feel like it slows down their draw. . . But if there ever was an argument for having a quality retention holster, that video would be it.




Robocop said:


> I myself have been approached by police while off duty and questioned. . . . I had no problem with him cuffing me before he saw my weapon and badge as that is textbook safety procedure. You always cuff first then search.



Agree 100%. Unfortunately it seems like too many people are looking for reasons to be offended. . . .


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## ForrestChump (Aug 17, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g3BWsNik0E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErASUGL00gQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbHGajWdMac


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## PartyPete (Aug 17, 2015)

Interesting story. PartyPete is hardly ever sober but even so, in that situation I probably would have thrown my hands in the air and faced them to show it's a light, verbalizing it as well.

I take it the OP is not in an open carry state.


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## molumens (Aug 17, 2015)

All I can say is " wow, I'm glad I live in Georgia". Open carry, concealed carry of guns and knives so a flashlight clipped in your pocket does not even get any attention. 800 maybe 1000 miles apart but different worlds, y'all can have it. I'm just sayin...


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## keithallenlaw (Aug 18, 2015)

Very good write up and story. You sound very professional.
I do find a particular part of your story that interest me.

" I bet this is our guy" 

What ever happen to questioning someone first before assuming?
Because we all know there is only 1 guy in all of town wearing a gray coat???
Some states, like the state I live in, has no requirement for disclosing information
about whether or not you are conceal and carry. 

I thought I would be courteous to an officer who stopped me one night for a 
tail light, to tell him that I had a fire arm. Again completely voluntary in my 
state. This officer asked me after I told him, "Are you threatening me?" 
I said well no, I'm just stating this for you to know. It took some butt 
kissing but I diffused the situation and ended up with a verbal tail light 
warning. Lesson learned to never volunteer info. I was really trying
to make him feel at ease before he looked down in my seat and seen
the firearm all on his own. Oh well. :shrug:

Thanks again for sharing your story. No worry about dragging on...
The longer the better. -keith


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## Robocop (Aug 18, 2015)

Keith you were correct to go ahead and advise the officer you were armed and while he may not have shown it I am sure he appreciated it none the less. I also understand and agree that both officers in my case could have assumed I was not the person who was involved in the assault however both of them approached me as if I were guilty.

When dealing with dangerous offenses we learn to approach any suspect fitting the description with caution. If it turns out to be the suspect he has lost the advantage of surprise. If it turns out to be a false alarm sure their feelings may get hurt however after a quick interview they are free to go. I remember turning around to face both officers and both of them looked like they were ready to charge me. Yes they looked serious and yes if I were an average citizen I would have most likely been offended or even angry for being suspected of a crime. I was actually very calm and happy to see they used good safety precautions. A few moments of my time later I was on my way.

There is a very dangerous trend among police that is growing now and it is hard to watch. All across the nation I am seeing officers hurt or even killed because they are afraid to react. Not afraid of fear but more so afraid of public scrutiny or being disciplined as a result of political correctness. Just recently I saw a video filmed by a citizen of two officers struggling with a suspect. The citizen of course went on the news saying they believed the officers were wrong as both attacked this suspect for no reason. His video seemed to support this however there was a catch. He began recording after the struggle had began and was giving commentary on what he believed was true. Fact was both officers had body cameras that clearly showed the suspect suddenly start swinging at one officer thus prompting the struggle. Now if neither officer would not have had that proof would they both be fighting for their jobs now?

Google "Birmingham Detective pistol whipped" and read the news story. I work for this department and know this officer personally. He is an excellent detective and in no way shape or form has he ever shown to be a problem officer. This happened last week when he was attacked by two suspects who did take his weapon and beat him very badly. He had serious injury however never once during the confrontation did he fight back nor ever consider using his weapon.

Of course he would have been justified to do so when faced with this type of threat however again he did not use his weapon and as a result was badly hurt. He is very lucky he was not killed as he was disarmed. Now when he was interviewed later by the news he was asked why this happened. He clearly stated that he did not fight back as he was afraid of being in the next headlines. In other words he did not use force when he was almost being killed because he was afraid of being judged by the public and fired or even jailed. Sad story however it is playing out all over the nation and even I myself worry about will it be me next.

The really bad part about this story is that people standing around actually took photos of the officer laying in a pool of blood and posted them to facebook making fun of the injured officer. That's right not one person even tried to help him to his feet but did take time to laugh and joke. 

Yes officers sometimes do over react and yes some even abuse their positions. This happens in every job out there and I would be willing to bet that if you do the math police related misconduct is lower than many other fields. I have known some amazing officers in my lifetime and literally can count on one hand the few that did not respect the badge. I really do not know the answer to todays problems between police and the public however I do know it is a hard time to be an officer for many reasons. I do feel the body camera systems are helping and actually all officers I know have no problem with being recorded. 

None the less thank you all for the kind words and for also reading my very long rants that I tend to enjoy. Still an interesting thread and I do enjoy reading of others experiences with police.


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## markr6 (Aug 18, 2015)

Robocop said:


> Keith you were correct to go ahead and advise the officer you were armed and while he may not have shown it I am sure he appreciated it none the less.



I agree. I don't carry anymore but when I did I would hand over my permit along with my license if pulled over. I think that only happened once. It's just a nice way to diffuse any possible awkward situations. On the rare occasion he had to search me or my car for some reason, I wouldn't want any surprises.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 18, 2015)

Deleted.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 18, 2015)

Deleted.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Aug 18, 2015)

FORREST! Two, back to back, posts deleted?! That's going to bug me all night wondering what you wrote! :hairpull:

I think you did it on purpose, just to get to me. 

~ Chance


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## scout24 (Aug 18, 2015)

Chauncey- Did you read my "Delete the ability to Delete" thread? Just curious.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Aug 18, 2015)

Hi scout. Call me Chance. Yes I did; pretty sure I also posted in it. I'm just foolin about with Forrest. He's got a great sense of humor. :thumbsup:

~ Chance


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## RedLED (Aug 18, 2015)

NYC follows this insane "Broken Windows," theory compiled by some whacked out PhD at UCLA, LAPD I think uses it as well. I grew up, in Beverly Hills, and was not allowed anywhere near UCLA because some of the professors were so crazy, and now I can see what they were talking about. I used to sneak up there anyway since it was the 60's and the freak show was just amazing! Saw a couple of bad trips with guy's screaming their heads off for quite a while as even the LAPD could not control them complete insanity! People running to and from every direction. Those were the good old days!

google Broken windows, and you will see why the OP got hassled for a clip. A goofy computer program that has failed. They try to predict when and where the next crime will take place, and for the OP they thought they had him with the flashlight clip.


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## Search (Aug 18, 2015)

RedLed said:


> NYC follows this insane "Broken Windows," theory compiled by some whacked out PhD at UCLA, LAPD I think uses it as well. I grew up, in Beverly Hills, and was not allowed anywhere near UCLA because some of the professors were so crazy, and now I can see what they were talking about. I used to sneak up there anyway since it was the 60's and the freak show was just amazing! Saw a couple of bad trips with guy's screaming their heads off for quite a while as even the LAPD could not control them complete insanity! People running to and from every direction. Those were the good old days!
> 
> google Broken windows, and you will see why the OP got hassled for a clip. A goofy computer program that has failed. They try to predict when and where the next crime will take place, and for the OP they thought they had him with the flashlight clip.



This was a wild ride from start to finish but to be honest I feel like I need to drink a lot more to understand what just happened.

+1


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## RedLED (Aug 18, 2015)

Search said:


> This was a wild ride from start to finish but to be honest I feel like I need to drink a lot more to understand what just happened.
> 
> +1


Do you mean my times in the 60's?


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## Search (Aug 18, 2015)

RedLed said:


> Do you mean my times in the 60's?



Just joking with you lol

I did google it and I see how the theory works.. but I feel like I'd have to take the wrong pill to actually believe it.


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## RedLED (Aug 18, 2015)

Even without computers, cops know where the action is taking place on their beats. But the theory is the smallest of crimes, like tossing a gum wrapper will somehow bring down Park Ave, and the Waldorf will start renting rooms for a half an hour!

Meanwhile...at 136th and Lennox, anything goes.


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## RedLED (Aug 18, 2015)

Search said:


> This was a wild ride from start to finish but to be honest I feel like I need to drink a lot more to understand what just happened.
> 
> +1


Dude, it was the 60's what we got away with as kids would now lockdown most of Beverly Hills, Bel-Air, and most of the Hollywood Hills. I also snuck up to the Sunset Strip in those days, it was just insane. Unless you were walking around with a gun in your hand, the police would leave you alone. If my parents had any idea where I was....

I forgot to add many people on Sunset would be talking a mile-a-minute...to themselves. And no price for admission.


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## Search (Aug 18, 2015)

RedLed said:


> Even without computers, cops know where the action is taking place on their beats. But the theory is the smallest of crimes, like tossing a gum wrapper will somehow bring down Park Ave, and the Waldorf will start renting rooms for a half an hour!
> 
> Meanwhile...at 136th and Lennox, anything goes.



That feels very real. We always knew the areas that when you saw people you knew they were doing something they shouldn't do..

We were expected to pay closer attention to "other" areas to make sure it looked good you know. When politics got involved too heavily I changed careers. It became too much for me.



RedLed said:


> Dude, it was the 60's what we got away with as kids would now lockdown most of Beverly Hills, Bel-Air, and most of the Hollywood Hills. I also snuck up to the Sunset Strip in those days, it was just insane. Unless you were walking around with a gun in your hand, the police would leave you alone. If my parents had any idea where I was....



I was a 90s kid but can relate to probably a smaller level. Growing up in the country we would hike for 12 hours of the day through nothing and our parents couldn't have cared less. Today I worry when mine goes around the side of the house by herself. I couldn't imagine a time like you described. I imagine I would have done a lot more


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## RedLED (Aug 18, 2015)

Well, now kids don't even leave the house, with video games and smart phones. At least we had some fun outdoors.


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## RedLED (Aug 18, 2015)

I really think in NYC it is politics, the police know what to and who to look for. But, if a politician or bureaucrat is involved it will change everything.


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## Search (Aug 18, 2015)

RedLed said:


> I really think in NYC it is politics, the police know what to and who to look for. But, if a politician or bureaucrat is involved it will change everything.



This is spot on. We always knew who was into what or how to find the people that were doing the wrong things. 

The local bureaucracy knew how to make the tax payers think we were doing good.


Such is the world though.


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## P_A_S_1 (Aug 19, 2015)

RedLed said:


> .....
> Meanwhile...at 136th and Lennox, anything goes.



That's where Harlem Hospital's ER entrance is.....spent some memorable times there .


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## ForrestChump (Aug 19, 2015)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> FORREST! Two, back to back, posts deleted?! That's going to bug me all night wondering what you wrote! :hairpull:
> 
> I think you did it on purpose, just to get to me.
> 
> ~ Chance



2-3 hours of typing and editing a response to Robocops post and I still couldn't articulate my point the way I wanted. I gave it an honest try but it just wasn't coming out right. Good Police, Bad Police, perception, the media, access to effective mental health services and experiencing both awesome and horrendous police work is a tuff write up and would take us to far off topic. I've seen both sides, unfortunately where I live, I have encountered very few positive contacts mostly negative and several on the horrendous side. When I watch "COPS" for my area I literally crackup laughing at what must be the absolute best cherry picked cops I have ever seen. In stark contrast, in another state, I have dealt with nothing but awesome Cops. So I have a unique perspective to share and it just wasn't coming out the way I wanted. I believe the quality of LEO is heavily dependent on the area in which you reside. Thats the only thing I can manage to write at this time.


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## keithallenlaw (Aug 19, 2015)

Thanks Robocop for the thoughtful reply.


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## RedLED (Aug 19, 2015)

If New York's elected officials knew anything about what they were doing they could give the police and the people a much easier time with all these clipped items.

The clip on a knife is designed so you can access your knife with ease, not speed or quick draw, it is so when you are working, which is what 99% of these knives are for you can get it with one hand on a ladder or not have to go thru your pockets or back to the toolbox. I reach for mine countless times a day in the studio, or on my location sets where we use ladders quite a bit. I am my own ME or master electrician and set and focus all my lighting, so these clipped knives are very handy. The clip also keeps you from dropping it from a ladder or roof places like that, they make the knife much safer.

And, what happened to safety anyway? Now it is all security! You used to hear safety first, now it is be on the look out! 

I can can pull a loose knife floating in my back pocket much faster than the with a clip, the fact is this is a bad law. If you have a knife clipped to your pocket, I would wager the constabulary would notice it right away, and know OK, this guy may have a knife, or something, however, the New York law has you keep it hidden which when things go down, and they go down fast, that hidden knife is a nasty surprise, when it could have been visible and harder to get to than an un clipped knife floating in a pocket. 

I love going to New York, I get a fair amount of work there, (like there are no photographers in NYC), but, it is that goofy police commission, nutty Mayor's, bureaucrats, uneducated elected fools, and all of that crowd that pass laws with no thought of common sense built into them and I can imagine the police just thinking, oh no, now we have to do this? 

I just just loved watching that entire crowd of commissioners, Mayor and non elected people on TV sweating in front of the world press that somehow, a trillion dollar state-of-the-art law enforcement system was brought to its knees and failed in an awful way to catch a couple of guy's switching the flags on the Brooklyn bridge, as a joke. I mean really, these guy's were just artists and they figured it out! 

That fiasco was from the top down 100% and not the fault of the rank and file police in any way. In fact, I had several NYPD officers think it was funny. And it was funny! 

The rumors I heard, un confirmed, was that Mayor de Blasio was taking Salvo Detergent sized tablets of clonazepam.

Believe me, we have more goofs in elected office, and bureaucrats here in California that want to pass things that the old Soviet's would wonder what is going on. I bet if some proud comrade Soviet worker put a clip on a knife in 1978, to make a job easier, the Moscow Center trained KGB would not have cared and would have laughed at the idea of it being a weapon. 

By the way...is this a state law or a city thing, (I have knives but don't keep up on the details)? Because in the upstate part of NY, things seem normal I would love to live up there, with all those trees, it seems quite nice.


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## reppans (Aug 19, 2015)

RedLed said:


> By the way...is this a state law or a city thing, (I have knives but don't keep up on the details)? Because in the upstate part of NY, things seem normal I would love to live up there, with all those trees, it seems quite nice.



I believe the gravity knife law is a state thing, NYC just applies it ridiculously. I went to a fixed blade - much stronger anyways.


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## RedLED (Aug 19, 2015)

reppans said:


> I believe the gravity knife law is a state thing, NYC just applies it ridiculously. I went to a fixed blade - much stronger anyways.


Can you walk around with a fixed blade on your belt? Flashlights are not the only things with clips on them.


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## reppans (Aug 19, 2015)

RedLed said:


> Can you walk around with a fixed blade on your belt?.



I wouldn't.... I carry an Izula a couple of ways concealed, but with reasonable access.


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## RedLED (Aug 19, 2015)

D6859 said:


> I was entering a night club in Helsinki last winter when the bouncer stopped me and asked me what it was in my pocket (Thrunite TN12 has a silver clip too). I replied just the same way you did. I'm not sure if I stopped to even think about what I was doing when I pulled it out. I tried to do it in non-offensive way though. The bouncer was cool with the light and told that they had had an incident with some bouncer or security guard using OC spray in the night club on his freetime and he had thought I was carrying it too. I'm happy I live in Finland. The bouncer was not gonna shoot me or anything and if he had been a cop he would have been reguired to give me a warning shot first at least.
> 
> It was the first time I was asked about my EDC during the year I've caried it. I also carry M22 in its holster attached to my bag. I've carried the bag in night clubs, bars and on a festival last week and never got asked about it.
> 
> ...


I have used my M6LT Surefire to light the President of the United States coming down the stairs of Air Force One at night arrivals and departures for a couple of years, no problem. There is plenty of light provided for us as TV needs broadcast quality light, I just like to add my own with digital cameras it looks great. It would hard to blind any performer on a professional lit stage.
Now, I want to add a laser is something totally different I really dislike people who do that to anyone. That is truly dangerous and to do to an artist on a stage is in very poor taste.

My lasers are for playing with the cats, they love them, an I also have a leica laser tape measure which is fantastic.

At this juncture, clipped flashlights at the current levels of OTF lumens can do no serious harm to blind an attacker, yet I still am in fear of laws generated for and against out beloved bright lights.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Aug 20, 2015)

Hi Forrest,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. I'll quote myself just to be sure you read/read it ~


Chauncey Gardiner said:


> I'm just foolin about with Forrest. He's got a great sense of humor. :thumbsup:
> 
> ~ Chance



Thanks again,

~ Chance


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## RedLED (Aug 20, 2015)

Deleted duplicate, sorry.


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## uofaengr (Aug 20, 2015)

To the sensible person, the idea of self defense is something we have a right to and are born with. Unfortunately for many of the nerds in control today who are frankly ideologues first and foremost, they do not see self defense as a natural born right. In some countries, I believe self defense is punishable by law? Therefore, any tool that can be used to protect oneself is deemed unsafe for the masses by those who know what's best for us. You know because the ones who can afford private security are always the most worried about what we "hoi polloi" might do to them. 

I'm speaking in general and pretty exaggerated terms, but politicians today find whatever excuse they can to make something political to force an agenda for ideological reasons and to garner votes. I wouldn't foresee a ban on super bright lights due to clips as stated above, but wait until a child gets hold of dad's 1000 lumen light and turns it on and stares into it until the point of permanent eye damage or blindness. Then it hits national media and all the "you don't NEED that" starts from the bleeding hearts. (No one EVER mentions responsible parenting as a solution) Then an incident with a mentally challenged person or prankster standing out in traffic in a major US city with a 2000 lumen strobe turned on blinding drivers and creating mass chaos. These incidents always tend to happen just days or weeks apart, if you've never noticed. Then the ball gets rolling with media demonization, stories of cities implementing their own bans on "flashlights in public", national discussion of the term "EDC" and "what it really means" i.e crazy prepper type people ("beware of pocket clips and report these people!"). Media discussion on "cheap and accessible powerful flashlights" just like guns. Then it's all downhill into pretty much "you name it" territory from there. 

Now I thought the post I just typed is as paranoid and ridiculous as you do. Do I really think lights will be banned in any form in my lifetime? No, not really. But with the trend we are on with people in power essentially running away with it unchecked, nothing surprises me anymore. The more ridiculous it is, the more likely it is to happen it seems.


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## more_vampires (Aug 20, 2015)

uofaengr said:


> Then an incident with a mentally challenged person or prankster standing out in traffic in a major US city with a 2000 lumen strobe turned on blinding drivers and creating mass chaos.


No more laws required, that's creating a public nuisance with probably some cite for impeding traffic. No need for more laws.



> but wait until a child gets hold of dad's 1000 lumen light and turns it on and stares into it until the point of permanent eye damage


Child endangerment, parent has to answer for that. Already illegal. No new laws desired or required.


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## uofaengr (Aug 20, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> No more laws required, that's creating a public nuisance with probably some cite for impeding traffic. No need for more laws.
> 
> Child endangerment, parent has to answer for that. Already illegal. No new laws desired or required.


When has the existing laws we have ever stopped a politician from creating new laws? Actually instead of enforcing existing laws we have, the trend now is to go straight for the ban. When the ban fails, then it's add more restrictions to the current law that wasn't being enforced in the first place.


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## more_vampires (Aug 20, 2015)

Hate to agree with you, sir. It's already illegal, let's ban it some more!


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 20, 2015)

Moving this to the Cafe. Let's not go overboard with political opinions.

Bill


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## RedLED (Aug 20, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> No more laws required, that's creating a public nuisance with probably some cite for impeding traffic. No need for more laws.
> 
> Child endangerment, parent has to answer for that. Already illegal. No new laws desired or required.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Aug 20, 2015)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Moving this to the Cafe. Let's not go overboard with political opinions.
> 
> Bill


 

Thank you for the leeway. :thumbsup: A little politics goes a long way. Too much, goes to the Underground Wine Cellar. 

~ Chance


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## markr6 (Aug 21, 2015)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Thank you for the leeway. :thumbsup: A little politics goes a long way. Too much, goes to the Underground Wine Cellar.
> 
> ~ Chance



HAHA. I think I'll stop posting offtopic/random threads in the cafe. A few got shut down when other people were allowed to keep theirs (the subject matter was similar IMO). Too much of a gray area.


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## Lantern32 (Aug 31, 2015)

Just about to order a Benchmade 940 or 940-1! Trying to decide wether to go with S30V or S90V steel! Hmm lol!


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## lunas (Aug 31, 2015)

This poop makes me glad I live in a state with only 1 knife law the one banning ballistic knives


For the record in nyc as the law reads the only time you can carry a knife is when your hunting or fishing with a hunting or fishing license. It is to be assumed carrying one outside of that is intent to be used as a weapon...


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## idleprocess (Aug 31, 2015)

Robocop said:


> I was walking last winter when suddenly I hear from behind "you there in the gray coat stop" Two officers ran up from behind me and both looked very excited. One officer said " I bet this is our guy" and I said I have no idea who you are looking for however it is not me. I then held my hands out to my side and said I do have a weapon. One officer quickly drew his gun as the other cuffed me asking where my weapon was. He then raised my coat and saw my gun and badge. Of course he removed the cuffs and apologized. Turns out moments before they saw me a big dude with a bald head and gray coat assaulted a man nearby. I fit the description so naturally they detained me.
> 
> The officer kept saying he was sorry and asked why I did not say I was an officer. I replied simply because even if I did he should not believe anyone who says that until he knows he is safe. Any criminal can claim anything and I had no problem with him cuffing me before he saw my weapon and badge as that is textbook safety procedure. You always cuff first then search. Even if someone says to me they are an officer and I don't know them yes they get cuffed first until I can verify my safety. Not sure if they ever found the guy they wanted however after a few minutes I was on my way. In no way was I angry for having a weapon drawn on me nor for being cuffed. That was simply cops doing their job and being safe.
> 
> Yes again there are some officers out there that are on some type of weird power trip. Trust me real cops do not like these types any more than citizens do as they give us all a bad reputation. A few bad incidents will fuel the fire nationwide and this makes it very hard for all other hard working officers as their good deeds are never noticed. Our number one complaint is with citizens who file complaints stating they were offended by an officers actions. It is often the result of an officer drawing their weapon or even placing their hand on their weapon when approaching a traffic stop. I have heard it a thousand times...."I am not a criminal officer why do you have your hand on your gun" Of course this is usually after they attempted to open their door as I approached or they are reaching in their glove box for their papers.


I worked swing shift (15:00 - 00:00) for many years. I was always troubled by the lack of anything to do when I got off work other than ... A) putz around on the internet B) visit the handful of 24 hour establishments (diners, wal-mart, gas stations). As it happened there was a hike/bike trail that ran behind my apartment along a suburban waterway that I took to hiking at night which I soon thought nothing of walking along at midnight, two, or three in the morning. I got a little exercise and tested out the capabilities of many a flashlight. I eventually started to branch out into loops of the adjoining neighborhoods and would sometimes hike as far as 5 miles from my apartment. The only time I did much that might have annoyed residents was when I discovered that the waterfoul in this one large pond *did not like* me sweeping it with powerful lights and a few thousand ducks, swans, geese, cormorants, and perhaps a few herons noisily and angrily took flight in the span of a few seconds. Otherwise I was quiet, limited the spotlighting to the wooded waterway, and was usually listening to music.

Then I had a couple of run-ins with the local PD.

The first time I had deviated from my route and was walking along a sidewalk along a major road. It was a well-lit 6-lane divided road and I was walking into traffic. I recall seeing a police car approaching in the distance and thought nothing of it, passing a dark residential side street, and alley that I paused for about a second to glance down, then kept going. At this point the police car flicked on their lights before I came to the next residential side street and I stopped. Then another police car pulled up from behind me into the left turn lane, lights on. And another police car pulls up beside me - a K-9 unit. All three police officers converge on me roughly simultaneously and start asking the usual questions - name, address, why am I here, where did I come from. I will not claim that I was thoroughly _calm_, but I did refrain from becoming _excited_. The first cop asks for my license, I produce it, then he and the second cop disappear into their respective cars. I stand there with the K9 cop and get the feeling this was either a mistake or they were simply doing something about the boredom of graveyard shift. I ask the K9 what's going on and he mentions something about someone matching my description "running from the police" almost in an eye-rolling _no way that sounds plausible_ sense. He asks me a few other questions probably just to pass the time and maybe to see if I'll say or do something suspicious. The other officers appear, hand my my ID, offer some vague apology for detaining me, then the whole convoy departs - probably back to the convenience store near my apartment that it suddenly occurs to me I've probably seen all of them at before.

That experience left me a bit flustered and confused, but mostly confused.

The other memorable encounter, I was walking along a road paralleling the road my apartment complex was on. Said road runs parallel to a major highway, and between the road and the highway sits a somewhat high-end car dealership. I have walked this road before at night and noticed cars parked to blockade the rear gate - presumably private security. This one night I walked past the parked truck and vaguely recall some flicker of motion in the edge of my vision as I walk past; I would later realize that I had awoken the occupant. Still, I thought nothing of it and continued past the dealership until a crossroad perhaps an eighth of a mile further; there was no more sidewalk on this side of the road so I proceeded to cut across a narrow grass strip into the parking lot of a Target store. At this point a police car comes along the crossroad, lights on, and turns into the parking lot at some speed. I stop, the police car comes to a stop some distance ahead of me and the officer springs out of the car. At this point the truck from the has come to a stop behind me and the occupant also jumps out and bellows at the police officer something about _Yeah - that's the guy I told you about, I'm [some identifier - probably a badge number]_. It has been no more than three minutes since I passed the napping off-duty police officer. I connect the dots that the security guard is an off-duty cop then the interrogation from the uniformed cop starts. It's borderline unfriendly. What am I doing here. Why am I walking around so late at night. Why do I have a flashlight on my person. Why do I have *multiple* flashlights on my person. The other guy asks did I know that there was someone else reportedly walking the same direction along the highway _(this comes out as an extremely bad lie - the geography is all wrong for the other cop to have observed some mysterious other person and materialize at the scene so quickly)_. They demand my ID and I'm a little jittery so I reach for my wallet a little too quickly, making both fellows a little nervous. They see the knife clipped to my pocket and the uniformed cop removes it. I more slowly produce my ID and the uniformed cop goes to his car to find out how boring my life is, criminally, and presumably to log one suspicious person walking along a public road. I stand there and stare at the other guy, who seems to be feeling like he's come up short. The other cop returns my ID, puts my knife in my pocket for me - advising me not to touch it until they leave - then both unceremoniously depart. I'm a bit torqued by this and walk something like 10 miles that night grinding my teeth. After they leave it occurs to me I should have gotten badge numbers and perhaps filed a complaint; I doubt that any other private security would get such lightning response from the PD. Upon returning I realize I'm walking down the same road and somehow resist the temptation to wake up the off-duty cop again.

Naturally, this experience was more aggravating than the first.

But these events are many years removed from now and I've let go of the resentment I felt at the time. People don't walk the streets of that city at such late hours; the fact that I came across other people perhaps a dozen times along the walk-bike trail at those hours confirms it. Like it or not, what I was doing was unusual for the time of day. While I was informally detained for a few minutes at a time, I was never arrested, cited, nor subject to much more than some ... memorable ... experiences that otherwise did not alter the trajectory of my life. Doubt that the records of those incidents from ~10 years ago survived long, although it would be an interesting exercise to see if they still exist.



Edit: Actually, there was a third time, but it was trivial by comparison. 

I'm walking through a neighborhood a major block removed from mine when I round a corner and see some police officers in an alley waving flashlights around, probably responding to some sort of complaint. When I spot them it's apparent that they haven't seen me, but I'm already within 15 yards or so and decide to just keep on going. When I'm half again as close, one notices me and points his maglite at me and asks me what I'm doing. Expecting this, I just stop and say I'm taking a walk. He pauses a second, then realizing I'm not all connected to whatever they're out there for, says to carry on and resumes his conversation with his partner. No detention, no ID check, paused for the time it would take to cover 10 yards, didn't even get excited about it.


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