# Trustfire TR-001 Charger



## old4570 (Apr 30, 2009)

This would seem to be the new one , that fixes what was wrong with the previous one :thinking:..

Anyway , Open Circuit = 4.2volt Charging Volts 4.05 as near as I can tell .

2 channel charger .. Seems to charge at a constant rate that drops as the battery becomes loaded . [ Nice ] 
Charge rate : 

1. With a 18650 @ 3.69v C1 does o.55A C2 does o.5A
2. With a 18650 @ 4.13v both do o.12A
2.B 18650 @ 4.17v Charger is varying from o.o4A to o.o7A 
2.C 18650 @ 4.2v Charger is still charging at o.o2 - o.o4A - No green light as yet [ Trustfire 2500mAh Unprotected ] 

3. With a RCR123A @ 3.91v both do o.31A 
4. With a RCR123A @ 4.07v both do o.15A
5. With a RCR123A @ 4.11v both do o.12A
6. With a RCR123A @ 4.17v both do o.o8A 

Im currently charging a 18650 to see where it terminates . 
Then I will do a RCR123A





Well , I must say im impressed with the TR-001 , its a very clean and un-cluttered looking charger , it also handles RCR123A to 18650 with no problems or spacers needed . The case seems to be very robust in construction , and the entire unit does not seem cheap at all , it in fact feels - looks - and handles like it should cost more . 

Speaking of price , $8.81USD 

Just waiting on those batteries to charge now .. Ok I used the left channel to charge a 18650 Trustfire 2500mAh Unprotected batt , when it hit 4.22 I pulled the batt out and tried the right hand channel and it would not go red , Im currently charging a CR123A in the right hand charging slot , but it looks like the left side may have a problem and overcharge . I will try the right side with a 18650 [ Same brand etc ] to see if it works ok .. 
Currently charging a RCR123A in the right hand side ... Ok looks like about 4.22volt on the right hand slot for termination voltage , after resting the batt for 2 minutes , its reading 4.19v [ RCR123A ] 

Conclusion 

Ok bottom line , it overcharges and just does not look like it wants to shut of or go green at all , I just left the 18650 in there and it hit 4.23 no problems and looked like it just wanted to keep on going . If they could fix the overcharge problem , this would be a great charger , as it is , I can only recommend you dont put it on your shopping list . 
For a while there it looked good , I liked the way it charged the batteries , dropping mA as it got closer to 4.2v , but there is the crux of the problem , it just does not look like it wants to stop charging . 

Great product if your looking burn your house down . 


Matt


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## kramer5150 (Apr 30, 2009)

:twothumbs
Awaiting further impressions
FWIW.. DX:4151


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## old4570 (Apr 30, 2009)

Aaaah yeah dx/sku.4151 


:candle:


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## Black Rose (Apr 30, 2009)

Rumour has it that the latest incarnation of the WF-139 uses the same circuit board as the TR-001.


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## old4570 (May 1, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> Rumour has it that the latest incarnation of the WF-139 uses the same circuit board as the TR-001.



One more batt test and I will open her up ...


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## old4570 (May 1, 2009)




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## csshih (May 1, 2009)

hahah.. a check mark.

QA?

I like the length of the charging bay and the spring.. no more .38 special spacers!


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## old4570 (May 1, 2009)

csshih said:


> hahah.. a check mark.
> 
> QA?
> 
> I like the length of the charging bay and the spring.. no more .38 special spacers!



Thats for the UF WF-139 ... The tick .


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## Black Rose (May 1, 2009)

old4570, your WF-139 is one of the new ones (has a license # on the back label)?

I like the fact the TR-001 does not need a spacer for 16340 cells.


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## GrAndAG (May 1, 2009)

*Trustfire TR-001 Charger - Charge graph*

I tested the same charger. Here is the graph of charging process:






First bad thing - it overcharges a bit... 4.24V at the end.
The other bad thing - after the charging had been ended and green led was switched on (FYI, it took more than 9 hours for 2400mAh battery) the charger was continue doing tickle charging at 40mA.


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## old4570 (May 1, 2009)

Yes , My 139 is one of the new ones ...

Tr001 , you def want to keep an eye on it with a Multi Meter .


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## seaside (May 2, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> old4570, your WF-139 is one of the new ones (has a license # on the back label)?
> 
> I like the fact the TR-001 does not need a spacer for 16340 cells.


 

Mine is new one with license# on the label.
Circuit board is exactly the same with old4570's. 
That basically is "revised" old version circuit. Looks identical with "old" old version circuit. But it's open circuit voltage is about 5V. Bit slower and bit safer. 

At the end this DX forum thread, a guy said this TR-801 circuit looks the same with that of his WF-139.
http://www.dealextreme.com/forums/Forums.dx/Forum.4151~threadid.307352

This TR-801 circuit is little differ from old4570's picture. 
See transformer and jumper wires.

Another person at WF-139 forum thread said the same story.
Several other people said they got 14pin IC on their WF-139 circuit board. Note that old4570's picture shows no 14pin ICs at WF-139, but there is at TR-801.


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## GrAndAG (May 2, 2009)

It's easy to distinguish which version of WF-139 you have without disassembling...
1st revision has ~10V open circuit, blinks while charging (CC/CV method)
2nd revision has ~5V open circuit, blinks while charging (CC/CV method)
3rd revision has ~4.3V open circuit, lights red while charging (lowering current method). Also it has labels printed using white paint, not silver as two previous.


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## seaside (May 2, 2009)

GrAndAG said:


> It's easy to distinguish which version of WF-139 you have without disassembling...
> 1st revision has ~10V open circuit, blinks while charging (CC/CV method)
> 2nd revision has ~5V open circuit, blinks while charging (CC/CV method)
> 3rd revision has ~4.3V open circuit, lights red while charging (lowering current method). Also it has labels printed using white paint, not silver as two previous.


 
Thanks for letting us know simple way to distinguish.
So, the question is "Does this 3rd version have the circuit that looks like that of TR-801?" Can someone show us a pic of the circuit?


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## GrAndAG (May 2, 2009)

seaside said:


> Can someone show us a pic of the circuit?







Taken from here

PS. Just thought... Maybe 3rd revision is just a faked UltraFire?


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## seaside (May 2, 2009)

GrAndAG said:


> Taken from here
> 
> PS. Just thought... Maybe 3rd revision is just a faked UltraFire?


 
Thanks for the pic.

It definitely is not TR-801, but I can see why some guys at DX clamed their WF circuit looks like TR-001 circuit. Top part doesn't looks like either TR-001 or old version WF-139. Bottom part looks quite similar with TR-001. With less amount of parts used with this 3rd version, it looks cheaper than old version.

I am getting the same question, is it revision change or fake?


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## Black Rose (May 2, 2009)

It's possible, but why would someone go to the trouble of making a fake WF-139?


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## kramer5150 (May 3, 2009)

GrAndAG said:


> It's easy to distinguish which version of WF-139 you have without disassembling...
> 1st revision has ~10V open circuit, blinks while charging (CC/CV method)
> 2nd revision has ~5V open circuit, blinks while charging (CC/CV method)
> 3rd revision has ~4.3V open circuit, lights red while charging (lowering current method). Also it has labels printed using white paint, not silver as two previous.



Mine appears to be the second version... open circuit = 4.9V and blinking.

Is that better than the version 1 or 3?


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## DHart (May 5, 2009)

kramer5150 said:


> Mine appears to be the second version... open circuit = 4.9V and blinking.
> 
> Is that better than the version 1 or 3?



Mine is as Kramer's also (open circuit =4.94v and blinks red-green-red while charging)... and I have the same question. 

When charging 16340's, the light turns green when the cells hit 4.14v - 4.15v. which seems good to me. But I have to wonder, is this charger (by its charging _method_) slowly killing my Li-Ions even if it isn't charging them over 4.2v?


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## Black Rose (May 5, 2009)

I have to wonder that as well. It seems that with the WF-139 it's the cells protection circuit that stops the charge, which can't be good in the long run.

I bought one of the Yoho-122 chargers from Battery Station to charge my 17670 and 18650 cells, but still use a WF-139 for my 16340 cells.

I don't think there is a decent/affordable 16340 only charger out there that uses the proper CC/CV algorithm.


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## seaside (May 5, 2009)

DHart said:


> Mine is as Kramer's also (open circuit =4.94v and blinks red-green-red while charging)... and I have the same question.
> 
> When charging 16340's, the light turns green when the cells hit 4.14v - 4.15v. which seems good to me. But I have to wonder, is this charger (by its charging _method_) slowly killing my Li-Ions even if it isn't charging them over 4.2v?


 
Mine is 2nd revision too according to GrAndAG.
Open circuit voltage is about 5.3V for mine. It goes down to 4.9V when indicator LED goes Red to green every few seconds. It's charging voltage can go up to 4.35V while charging. But when you take the battery off and measure the voltage it's less than 4.2V. Anyway it tends to charge 4.21~2V with my 18650, 4.14~6V with my 16340 just as DHart said. I think it's voltage regulation is kinda scary, and it could slowly kill Li-ions in the long run. But Li-ion can't last forever, and the question is how slow is OK? I wouln't mind it too much if it kills my battery slow enough like 500th charge or so. It seems like people can get away without problem.


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## kramer5150 (May 5, 2009)

DHart said:


> Mine is as Kramer's also (open circuit =4.94v and blinks red-green-red while charging)... and I have the same question.
> 
> When charging 16340's, the light turns green when the cells hit 4.14v - 4.15v. which seems good to me. But I have to wonder, is this charger (by its charging _method_) slowly killing my Li-Ions even if it isn't charging them over 4.2v?




x2... my WF-139 behaves exactly the same way. So I think its a version2 charger.

Am I killing my cells, even though charge terminates at 4.2?


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## old4570 (May 5, 2009)

Just depends on how high they go .. If mine were to terminate @ 4.22v often after 15 minutes out of the charger the batt voltage drops bellow 4.2 , dep on the batt , often down to 4.17 or around 4.19 volts .

One way is to keep an eye on them with a Multimeter if that worries you .
My next charger mod is going to be incorporating a mA meter to the Trustfire to watch the charging rate , so I have a clue when to pull the batts out .
Hopefully it should work OK !


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## march.brown (Feb 11, 2010)

GrAndAG said:


> It's easy to distinguish which version of WF-139 you have without disassembling...
> 1st revision has ~10V open circuit, blinks while charging (CC/CV method)
> 2nd revision has ~5V open circuit, blinks while charging (CC/CV method)
> 3rd revision has ~4.3V open circuit, lights red while charging (lowering current method). Also it has labels printed using white paint, not silver as two previous.


 
Just found this thread ... My Trustfire TR-001 open circuit voltage on each channel is 4.24 volts ... It seems to be nicely built out of a solid grey plastic ... It has the red LED on whilst charging ... The label is silver with black printing ... It was bought earlier this year ... I have not left the charger on long enough when charging my 18650s to see a green LED come on ... I check the battery voltage regularly and when it gets to 4.21 volts, I don't put them back on charge.

When I try a charged battery (4.21V) back in the charger, the green light comes on ... That is strange as the red light was on when I took the battery off charge ... I don't understand why the charger suddenly decides that the replaced cell is charged ... There must be a reason I suppose.

It seems that the final fifty millivolts or so take hours to come up to the 4.2 volts point ... The charger does not get warm, neither do the batteries, but I am somewhat apprehensive about leaving my batteries in for hours on end ... The battery does get up to 4.1 volts reasonably quickly ... It is the final 10% capacity that seems to take for ever.

With a charger open circuit voltage of only 4.24 volts, perhaps it might be possible to leave the 18650s on charge unsupervised for a while ... Though it might be tempting providence.
.


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## old4570 (Feb 12, 2010)

Actually I have left mine overnight by accident , and while it does overcharge by a fraction , after some rest the batteries are 4.2v 

Even when left overnight , I found them @ 4.2v in the morning ... 
Overall , it is a good charger .. 

When I first got it , everyone was doom and gloom about going over 4.2v 
But Im not worried any longer about 0.02 overcharge , if it was doing 4.25v or more , then maybe , but 0.02v is nothing .


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## march.brown (Feb 12, 2010)

march.brown said:


> Just found this thread ... My Trustfire TR-001 open circuit voltage on each channel is 4.24 volts ... It seems to be nicely built out of a solid grey plastic ... It has the red LED on whilst charging ... The label is silver with black printing ... It was bought earlier this year ... I have not left the charger on long enough when charging my 18650s to see a green LED come on ... I check the battery voltage regularly and when it gets to 4.21 volts, I don't put them back on charge.
> 
> When I try a charged battery (4.21V) back in the charger, the green light comes on ... That is strange as the red light was on when I took the battery off charge ... I don't understand why the charger suddenly decides that the replaced cell is charged ... There must be a reason I suppose.
> 
> ...


. 

Hooray ...

I was at the desk reading CPF when the LED went green ... I immediately stopped the charge and measured the 18650 and it was 4.21 volts.

As the meter only measures to two decimal places, I guess the actual voltage could be somewhere between 4.205V and 4.215V, so maybe the actual point at which the LED goes green is nearer the 4.215 volts ... If this is the case, I won't worry about the cells being 15 millivolts ('ish) over the 4.2V recommended threshold.

Anyway, at least I know now that the LED actually does turn to green.

This charger is certainly cheap but definitely not nasty (so far).
.


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## 45/70 (Feb 12, 2010)

old4570 said:


> Actually I have left mine overnight by accident , and while it does overcharge by a fraction , after some rest the batteries are 4.2v
> 
> Even when left overnight , I found them @ 4.2v in the morning ...
> Overall , it is a good charger ..



The problem with over charging Li-Ion cells at lower voltages (<4.35 Volts), isn't the voltage so much, as the fact that when a Li-Ion cell is allowed to "trickle" charge past 4.20 Volts, metallic lithium is plated to the anode of the cell. This can create a very unstable cell. Metallic lithium can be deposited onto the anode, even if a charger doesn't go over 4.20 Volts, but maintains a "trickle' charge at said voltage. That's why a proper Li-Ion charging algorithm stops charging at 4.20 Volts, and why these inexpensive (OK, "cheapo"!:naughty types of chargers should not be left unattended. 

Dave


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## old4570 (Feb 12, 2010)

45/70 said:


> The problem with over charging Li-Ion cells at lower voltages (<4.35 Volts), isn't the voltage so much, as the fact that when a Li-Ion cell is allowed to "trickle" charge past 4.20 Volts, metallic lithium is plated to the anode of the cell. This can create a very unstable cell. Metallic lithium can be deposited onto the anode, even if a charger doesn't go over 4.20 Volts, but maintains a "trickle' charge at said voltage. That's why a proper Li-Ion charging algorithm stops charging at 4.20 Volts, and why these inexpensive (OK, "cheapo"!:naughty types of chargers should not be left unattended.
> 
> Dave



Yes by no means trust it ! especially with unprotected batteries . 
The only charger so far that shuts off when done is the Shekore charger from KD for around $10 [ A little more than 10 ] . Its the only charger thats cheap and actually turns of on completion that I know of so far .


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## alfreddajero (Feb 12, 2010)

I dont use the charger much since i use Duraloops most of the time. When i check the voltage of a cell when its done charging i usually get a 4.15-4.17.......never above that. I bought my charger from 4 7's.


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## Tally-ho (May 2, 2010)

I received mine a few days ago.

4.266 V measured in open voltage. Led is green when plugged with no battery, that turns red when a battery is inserted.

Click to enlarge:


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## march.brown (May 3, 2010)

Tally-ho said:


> I received mine a few days ago.
> 
> 4.266 V measured in open voltage. Led is green when plugged with no battery, that turns red when a battery is inserted.
> 
> Click to enlarge:


My Trustfire TR-001 looks identical to yours.

With no cells in , the LEDs are green ... When charge is ended also LEDs are green ... When charging , the LEDs are red.

The left hand side open circuit voltage is 4.25V and the right hand is 4.24V.

When the green LEDs come on , both cells are 4.22 volts (open circuit) and after a one hour rest , they settle to 4.21 volts.

The only slight problem with the charger is the length of time it takes to get from 4.1V to 4.2V ... Seems to take ages.

It is still a worthwhile charger though ... I use either this or my Soshine SC-S2 ... I had to use both chargers the other day as I was topping up four part-used 18650s ... The Soshine is faster but it really isn't that important as they both end up with the same final voltages.

The main thing to remember is to take the cells off charge as soon as you realise that the LEDs change colour ... I check every half hour or so to see the LED colour and I also check the cell temperatures ... I also remove the cells occasionally to check the open circuit voltages , though I must admit that I am doing this less often than I originally did.

I check the cell voltages when on charge and when I see that the voltages are near to 4.22V , I know that they are nearly ready to come off the charger.
.


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## Art (May 3, 2010)

I tested a 14500 with 3.6v and it did 550mah in the first 5mins.

Does yours do like 1mah in the last 15mins before going green?

I have here some videos made of the MM will try to put them online later today.

My WF 139 acts exactly the same as the TR001.


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## old4570 (May 3, 2010)

Art said:


> I tested a 14500 with 3.6v and it did 550mah in the first 5mins.
> 
> Does yours do like 1mah in the last 15mins before going green?
> 
> ...



Yes , as the battery voltage goes up in the charge cycle the charge current comes down , the TR-001 is a little extreme in its lower charge current , but it gets the job done .. But that last stage does drag on . [ last 0.1volts ]

Im going to re-visit this charger when the Soshine arrives , in fact I will re-visit all the chargers I own ...


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## Art (May 3, 2010)

Im charging now a 10440 that was with 3.65v and it started at 0,20 (thats 200mah).

Seems like the 14500 with same volts alows a lot more charge.

Havent tested yet 18650 as I cant set up a "bench" to do it lol

Will upload a video of how Im testing... BRB


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## Art (May 3, 2010)

Here it is, the first seconds of charge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEykVVAJ6mk

It goes down with the time and then sets a lot of time between 0,01 and 0.

Will have to do this test with the Cytac.


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## jsalmika (Sep 30, 2010)

Art said:


> Will have to do this test with the Cytac.



Was the operation the same?


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## nofearek9 (May 22, 2012)

back from the dead 

i just ordered the Trustfire TR-001 with some TrustFire Protected 14500 3.7V 900mAh Rechargeable Lithium,i will be ok to let it run all night ?


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## nofearek9 (May 24, 2012)

up for an answer


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## tbenedict (May 24, 2012)

I wouldn't, the risk isn't worth it. Not sure if current trickled through on mine. You could set up a cheap timer, but its best to keep an eye on it and check the voltage.


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## nofearek9 (May 24, 2012)

ic ,seems those battery need lot of attention.


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## nofearek9 (Jun 21, 2012)

i've measured my charger and it give 4,12v this will be problem for my batteries? or is it better to push them to 4.2v ?


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## MarcoBat (Mar 30, 2013)

Hello chaps.
My first visit here. 
I'm interested in batteries, but right at this minute, I'm hoping someone might help with advice on what I'm seeing with the Trustfire TR-001 charger.

My batteries are:
AW IMR 18490 3.7v 1100mAh (4.1WH)

I noted that the TR001 outputs 4.2v
Yet a switch on the side allows the selection of 3.6v or 3.0v

The charger came with no documentation.
I left the switch at 3.6v as this tallies closest to my battery rating.
2 new batteries went in, and after around 3hrs the lights changed.

I metered the batteries on 'battery setting' and plain DC volts
Both tests produced an output of 4.2v
This seems to be 0.5v above spec, unless this is a required head, so that under 1.1A load it will deliver 3.7v

1. Can somebody confirm whether it is overcharging the batteries, or whether this is normal?
2. I note that one can buy 3.2v batteries of this type - is this the reason for the switch (but why didn't they mark it 3.2v and 3.7v I wonder)?
3. Also I note that 18650 4.2v batteries are available - in the above respect, would we expect to see 4.7v output from the battery, and could this be achieved by the TR001, which only outputs 4.2v?

Thanks


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## SilverFox (Mar 31, 2013)

Hello MarcoBat,

Welcome to CPF.

The 3.6 volts comes from the "nominal" voltage of Li-Ion cells. It is roughly the voltage of the cell under load when it is 50% discharged. The cell starts out at 4.2 volts and under load is completely discharged at around 3.0 volts.

To use these cells in some applications it is necessary to reduce the voltage. They will burn up if exposed to 4.2 volts. To mimic a primary cells voltage a circuit is added that drops the voltage by about 0.5 volts. These cells need to be charged to a higher voltage because of the voltage drop in the circuit. 

Caution:

If you charge a normal Li-Ion cell using the 3.0 volt setting you will end up overcharging the cell. Overcharging is dangerous and will greatly reduce the cycle life of the cell if it doesn't blow up during charging.

Tom


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## MarcoBat (Apr 1, 2013)

Thanks for that welcome Silverfox 
This is a very interesting subject, but I've clearly jumped in at the deep end.

After what you has said, it is all the more bizarre that these chargers are shipped without a manual.

However, because of this, and the risks you have pointed out.....
Could you clarify for me the use of the 3.0v switch position?

If I've understood correctly:

1. A 3.7v 18650 cell is rated 3.7v because that is its potential difference at 50% charge
2. A 3.7v cell operates in a range between min 3.0v and max 4.2v
3. Selecting 3.6v option on the Trustfire TR001, causes the 3.7v cell to be charged to 4.2v.

You state: 


> _If you charge a normal Li-Ion cell using the 3.0 volt setting you will end up overcharging the cell._


 
From this: if selecting 3.6v causes charging of +0.5v (to 4.2v)
by selecting 3.0v - does this cause charging of +1.0v (to 4.7v)

Is this correct?
And if so, should I be choosing this option If I purchase 18650 4.2v cells?
I note some companies eg. Ultrafire offer the 18650 in both 3.7v & 4.2v voltages.

If this is incorrect, when should one use the 3.0v selection option?


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## SilverFox (Apr 1, 2013)

Hello MarcoBat,

I think you have it correct. Using the 3.6 volt option you end up charging a cell to 4.2 volts. Using the 3.0 volt option the cell is charged to 4.7 volts but the diode that is used to drop the voltage limits the voltage to the cell to 4.2 volts. If you charge a 3.0 volt cell on the 4.2 volt setting it will under charge the cell. However if the other way around you are setting yourself up for problems.

A normal Li-Ion cell can be called by its nominal voltage (3.7 volts) or by its maximum charged voltrage (4.2 volts). A cell that has been altered to a lower voltage (3.0 volts) should be clearly marked and charging that cell would require the 3.0 volt setting.

Tom


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## MarcoBat (Apr 1, 2013)

Thanks for confirming that.
I guess therefore that the real question resolves down to the accuracy of the manufacturers claims.

By that I mean:

In the 18650 range, where a manufacturer states their cell is 4.2v (as does occur), can we believe that the 4.2v quoted is the nominal voltage.
Ie. It can be safely charged to 4.7v, meaning that under load it delivers 4.2v.

Eg. http://www.priceangels.com/2-Pcs-UltraFire-4-2V-4200mAh-18650-Batteries-for-Flashlight-s413798.html

I've read so many disparaging reports on this company that I'm loathe to take their claims at face value.
The 4.2v is actually important to me, as this modifies the wattage consumed by a given coil.

This will ultimately be discussed on a thread I have started here:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...lex-vaping-technologies&p=4175102#post4175102

What are your thoughts on availability of cells greater than 3.7v in the 18650 format?


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## SilverFox (Apr 1, 2013)

Hello MarcoBat,

I don't believe there are any Li-Ion cells that can take a 4.7 volt charge. When the say 4.2 volts, that is the maximum voltage for that cell. Its nominal voltage is 3.7 volts, and that is the voltage under "normal" load.

Some manufacturers have increased the nominal voltage from 3.7 volts to 3.75 volts. However, when reviewing the data sheet it seems that the higher mid point voltage is achieved by subjecting the cell to a lower current draw.

Take a look at some discharge graphs for Li-Ion cells. All of this will fall into place when you review the graphs. In this case a picture is worth many words.

You can also see how the mid point voltage varies under various loads.

Tom


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## MarcoBat (Apr 2, 2013)

Yes, that's what I suspected.
The ultrafire 4.2v is probably barely different than their 3.7v other than the printing.
It does appear to be the case that a manufacturer can create create confusion with their terminology.
Similarly with the 4200mAh claim.

Others on this site have stated 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?357800-Best-bang-for-the-buck-18650-charger
that nothing above 3400mAh is produced.

Check out this graph:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-V36TSNWZL...AAENA/haM4zXYf2sg/s1600/Ultrafire+4200mAh.gif

(A set of international standards would be nice.)

However, concentrating on the question of the availability of a cell chargeable to 4.7v.
At the moment, no such cell exists.

*Therefore, for the 18650 range, the 3.0v select option on the Trustfire-T001 - should never be selected.*

Hmmmmmm!
How on earth could I have known that, without the level of research that I have just gone to.
Obviously there must be a battery for which this option is required - only we aren't informed.
Wierd!

Thanks for all the help


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