# Rechargeable Surefire G2



## 3000k (Jan 10, 2010)

I have a Surefire 6P with a M60W and rechargeable rcr123 batteries which work great. I also have a Surefire G2 with a P61 lamp. I love the color and the beam pattern of the P60 and P61 lamps but I have read on this forum that using rechargeable batteries with an incan lamp will cause it to instaflash. I would love to get some sort of rechargeable battery that would work with these lamps. The surefire battery kit seems overpriced. Is there some other incan dropin I could buy that would allow me to use rechargeable batteries? The rechargeable batteries I have are 3v not 3.7


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## ampdude (Jan 10, 2010)

Yes, the AW safe chemistry LiFe-P04 or the voltage regulated 3V lithium-ion rechargeables will generally flash the 6V bulbs or at least reduce their lifespan a great deal because the voltage sag with them is not as much as with 3V lithium primaries, so the bulbs are running higher voltage than spec.

I have wanted to use AW's LiFe-P04 batteries with the bulbs you mentioned, in addition to the E-series 6v bulbs, the MN02 and MN03, but I have not heard any real success stories, so I have avoided doing so.

I think your best bet at a practical and bright rechargeable Surefire G2 is running a 9v lamp like the Surefire P90, or Lumens Factory SR-9 or HO-9 with a pair of AW's IMR16340 cells.


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## Dioni (Jan 10, 2010)

I have used a cheap one: DX drop in [sku.3246] + AW17670! 

Cheers,
Dioni


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## hyperloop (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi,

I've used this 10w 7.4v bulb and this 15w 7.4v bulb in my Surefire G2 (but mine had a glass lens) with 2xRCR123s with no issues.

Very nice warm incand tones. I now use a Lumens Factory HO-9 in my G2 with 2xRCR123s.


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## nzgunnie (Jan 11, 2010)

One of my standard setups is a P90 on two AW RCR123s.

If you wanted to run the P91 you would need to go to teh IMR cells, but the run time would be so short as to be a bit of a waste of time.

I get about 40min on the P90 on RCR123s, although I usually recharge before then.

Lumens factory also make some very nice 9v lamps you could use.


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## BIGLOU (Jan 11, 2010)

3000k the SF kit is overpriced but I have seen some used ones on Ebay. Maybe you could find a charger and buy the extender and the B65 battery directly for SF. FYI the kit works with the P60 and the P60L. Avoid using the P61 with this set up which will blow the bulb from my experience.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jan 11, 2010)

Go with the P90 or SR-9 + 2x16340 IMR cells.


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## nzgunnie (Jan 11, 2010)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Go with the P90 or SR-9 + 2x16340 IMR cells.



Why the IMR cells? Both these lamps are within the operating range of AWs RCR123a cells, surely they give you more capacity and longer run times?


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## Black Rose (Jan 11, 2010)

nzgunnie said:


> Why the IMR cells? Both these lamps are within the operating range of AWs RCR123a cells, surely they give you more capacity and longer run times?


Running incans with LiCo cells can shorten the life of the LiCo cells.

I've already shortened the life of a pair of 16340 LiCo cells using the drop-ins that Hyperloop linked to, as they draw more than 2C from the cells.


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## nzgunnie (Jan 12, 2010)

Black Rose said:


> Running incans with LiCo cells can shorten the life of the LiCo cells.
> 
> I've already shortened the life of a pair of 16340 LiCo cells using the drop-ins that Hyperloop linked to, as they draw more than 2C from the cells.



But at 1.5amps for the P90, this is only just 2C for AW RCR123s (which are 750 mAh).


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## Black Rose (Jan 12, 2010)

They are labelled as 750 mAh, but under load they vary:







IMR cells are just better at delivering the power that incan and other high drain lights need.
The IMR 16340 cells can be discharged safely at 8C.


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## ampdude (Jan 12, 2010)

nzgunnie said:


> But at 1.5amps for the P90, this is only just 2C for AW RCR123s (which are 750 mAh).



The P90 is usually around 1.1-1.2A.


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## nzgunnie (Jan 12, 2010)

ampdude said:


> The P90 is usually around 1.1-1.2A.



Even better. I've measured mine often enough but couldn't quite remember which lamps gave which readings.


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## Chrontius (Jan 14, 2010)

nzgunnie said:


> One of my standard setups is a P90 on two AW RCR123s.
> 
> If you wanted to run the P91 you would need to go to teh IMR cells, but the run time would be so short as to be a bit of a waste of time.



Not really; if you understand that this is a tactical light, and is only properly to be used for completely startling people who don't expect an entire building to be lit up or for doing violence in protection of life and limb, or interfering in such equivalent crises, it's a great setup and part of my EDC gear now.

In practice, it gets used in squirts when I'm walking from very bright to very dark illumination and don't have time to let my eyes adjust, and is charged once a week. I calculate about eight (glorious) minutes of runtime until dead, and have yet to run it down in any one week of normal use. Brightness ... not far from ROP-LO on fresh cells. 


Edit: I'll second the original question. How best to get the same effect as turning on a fresh P60, guilt free? Available hosts are 6p, G2Z, and a Solarforce frankenweaponlight that's slowly coming together.


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## mdocod (Jan 14, 2010)

The best route is to move up to a pair of 3.7V cells and run a "9V" lamp assembly. Technically speaking, the lamps designed for use with 3xCR123 cells are actually ~7-8V bulbs, so they run just fine on a pair of 3.7V cells. (Lithium primary cells are rated 3V, but run lower than 3V under a load, more like 2.5V or less under most tactical incan loads). Whereas, a 3.7V lithium rechargeable carries a label voltage rating that represents something closer to the average voltage output during a discharge. (They come off the charger at 4.2V give or take a few hundredths). 

Regular protected 3.7V LiCo chemistry RCR123s are often rated between 750 and 900mAH capacity. Realistically, they are more like 550-650mAH under most loads. The maximum safe load for these cells is going to be ~1.2A if used in continuous discharge applications. In short bursts, they can be safely used up to 1.5A and higher. In either case, the absolute limits of the cell are being pushed, and the cycle life will be dramatically reduced. 

For reliability, cycle life, and safety, I always recommend LiMn chemistry (IMR) RCR123s over LICo chemistry cells in incandescent applications. The IMR cell when operated at that same 1.2-1.5A range, is not stressed to any significant margin. The cells will maintain good cycle life and maintain better average useful capacity and performance over the life of the cell compared to LiCo cells. 

Now... we are trying to replicate the rough performance of a P61. 

A P61 runs at about 4.4V 2.5A, or about 11W. These high drain rates on CR123s do cause voltage to sag this much (it's NOT a 6V bulb). 

A P90 or SR-9 or many other standard output "9V" lamps, will run about 7.5V 1.2A, or 9W (on either 2x3.7V cells or 3xCR123 cells). Not quite the output of a P61 but very close. These lamps will generally have a tighter beam profile than the P61. More like the P60 but with more output. 

Moving up to an HO-9 will bring those numbers closer to the P61, ~7.4V 1.55A, about 11W. The beam profile of the HO-9 will likely be a hair tighter than the P61, but will probably satisfy the requirement. 

Running the HO-9 on a pair of IMR16340 cells will result in about the same 20 minutes run-time that you were getting from the P61 on primary cells, but instead of replacing cells, you are just recharging them. You will recover the cost of a handful of cells and charger pretty quickly if you use this light frequently. 

Make a point to shut off the light at the first sign of sudden and significant dimming. Recharge often when possible (shallow cycles are perfectly fine for Li-Ion cells and will increase over-all useful life of the cell). 

Enjoy

Eric


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## 3000k (Jan 14, 2010)

Is the HO-9 another p60 dropin and are the IMR16340 cells protected? The current 3.0V Tenergy cells that I now have are protected and wont even light up the p61.


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## mdocod (Jan 14, 2010)

Hello 3000K,

The HO-9 from LumensFactory is a D26 style lamp module and will work in just about any light that accepts a "P60" type lamp. 

IMR16340s are not protected, however, this should not be considered a negative. 

The reason regular LiCo cells need to be protected is for safety reasons. When Lithium Cobalt chemistry cells "go-off" (combustion) they produce their own oxygen during the burn, which accelerates it, while at the same time, produce harmful toxic excrement, (hydrofluoric acid in gas and liquid form as I understand). The odds of having this happen are pretty low, but are exponentially increased when the cell is repeatedly abused. (over-discharged, over-charged, or drained too quickly). The protection circuit in your 3.0V (buck regulated LiCo cells) are preventing you from using the P61 as a safety precaution. The P61 would be at least a 4C load or higher on the cells, and the voltage-bucking diode would generate major heat at these discharge levels, which would be further cause for concern. 

LiMn and LiFePO4 chemistry cells are often categorized as "safe lithium" chemistry cells. They can handle much more abuse (in the form of fast discharge rates and over-charge/discharge) than ordinary Lithium Cobalt chemistry cells before venting. When they do "go-off," they do not produce their own oxygen to fuel the burn and produce far fewer toxic excrement. 

Fast discharging and fast charging and over-charge and over-discharge are all going to reduce the useful cycle life of a LiMn cell, but it is very rare (pushing non-existent) to experience a catastrophic failure with LiMn chemistry cells when used within reasonable perameters. They can be thought of as ALMOST as safe as a NIMH cell (NIMH cells are NEVER protected). 

With all of this in mind. The need for a protection circuit is drastically reduced. A protection circuit adds resistance, which will reduce performance in direct drive applications (most incans). A protection circuit is also just another failure point. If the circuit fails, it can render a cell useless very suddenly. By eliminating the circuit on IMR cells, we are actually improving overall reliability. 

-Eric



3000k said:


> Is the HO-9 another p60 dropin and are the IMR16340 cells protected? The current 3.0V Tenergy cells that I now have are protected and wont even light up the p61.


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## Chrontius (Jan 14, 2010)

Since we've got a great P61 replacement, anyone got one for the humble p60?


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## mdocod (Jan 14, 2010)

Chrontius said:


> Since we've got a great P61 replacement, anyone got one for the humble p60?



ES-9 is pretty close but won't run quite as long. Very similar overall output, beam will likely be different.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jan 14, 2010)

mdocod said:


> ES-9 is pretty close but won't run quite as long. Very similar overall output, beam will likely be different.


It will run for more time, as long as you use 2x17500 (or larger cells).

The ES-9 throws better than the P60.

Cheers.


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## hyperloop (Jan 20, 2010)

Oh and i may have forgotten to mention that i swopped out the lens on my G2 for a UCL lens. Essential if you're going to pop in a HO-9


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## ampdude (Jan 20, 2010)

hyperloop said:


> Oh and i may have forgotten to mention that i swopped out the lens on my G2 for a UCL lens. Essential if you're going to pop in a HO-9



I've never had any problems running 9v lamps in my G2. I suspect the G2 windows are not lexan anymore.


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## mdocod (Jan 20, 2010)

hyperloop said:


> Oh and i may have forgotten to mention that i swopped out the lens on my G2 for a UCL lens. Essential if you're going to pop in a HO-9



If the G2 can run the P61 without melting then there isn't any reason that it couldn't run the HO-9 just as well. Since these 20 minute runners are usually used in short bursts anyways I think most people can get away without doing the lens swap.


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## zygibajt (Jan 21, 2010)

Halo,

As to the beam of Surefire P60 and P61 lamps I have had at least 5-6 of each and they differ a lot, especially P60. I have had the ones that gave extremely tight beam and the ones that were extremely floody, really quite a spectacular diffrance between the tightes and the floodest I have had, like totally diffrent lamps. With P61, P90 and P91 getting tighter beam is hard and aventually they are quite floody. I have had two P61 that were quite tight but not as tight as tightest P60 and I have never expirenced tight beam from P90 neither P91 the last one being the worst. 

Has anyone expirenced the diffrances

I love how P61 performs and in my opinion it is quite better on two cr123 than P90 on 3 cr123, more than the nominal 15 lumens diffrance I would guess.

Question to mdocod

What would you think the real lumens of P61 on fresh cr123 would be (I know Surefire lumens are usually underrated).

And what do you think the actual lumens of EO-6 and HO-6 would be as I expect the 200 lumens EO-6 will most probably be less bright than the P61 actually is.

Thanks

Bartek


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## Kestrel (Jan 21, 2010)

zygibajt said:


> What would you think the real lumens of P61 on fresh cr123 would be (I know Surefire lumens are usually underrated).
> 
> And what do you think the actual lumens of EO-6 and HO-6 would be as I expect the 200 lumens EO-6 will most probably be less bright than the P61 actually is.


My guess is that you could find this info in the Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II thread by MrGman.

K


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## zygibajt (Jan 21, 2010)

Kestrel said:


> My guess is that you could find this info in the Actual Lumens readings in 6" dia. Lab Sphere IS with SC 5500 control - PART II thread by MrGman.
> 
> K


 
Well I tried and I haven't. Maybe overlooked it, there is a lot of information there but I tried and I have not. 

Thanks


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## ampdude (Jan 21, 2010)

zygibajt said:


> Halo,
> 
> As to the beam of Surefire P60 and P61 lamps I have had at least 5-6 of each and they differ a lot, especially P60. I have had the ones that gave extremely tight beam and the ones that were extremely floody, really quite a spectacular diffrance between the tightes and the floodest I have had, like totally diffrent lamps. With P61, P90 and P91 getting tighter beam is hard and aventually they are quite floody. I have had two P61 that were quite tight but not as tight as tightest P60 and I have never expirenced tight beam from P90 neither P91 the last one being the worst.



I agree, there is quite a bit of variation in lamps. Especially the P60's and P90's. I have had a large amount of examples of each, some dating to Laser Products days and some recent production. I think the more recent production lamps are more uniform, but there is still some variation in beam characteristics between lamps.


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## mrfixit454 (Feb 15, 2010)

Hello,
First off what a great forum. Seems there are forums for everything these days.

I have had a G2 for about 3 years now and it has been a great light. My father-in-law has one as well and we buy sets of 20 CR123's for the entire time. This gets expensive so I decided to get RCR123's for us. Surefire's kit was too expensive. I bought the Tenergy 900mAh set with charger and 4 batteries. Worked OK since Christmas but the bulb was intermittent last couple of days unitl it quit today. No continuity across it. My F-I-L has not used his set yet so I told him to wait.oo:

Did some searching and found I maybe should not have used the RCR123 w/o changing the bulb. As I read Eric's excellent right up above, it appears I need to get a P90 type of bulb if I want to continue to use the rechargeable. Am I correct? The performance of the P60 was OK for me so looking for something similar. I also need to check out the HO-9. How about LED for this.. the P60L??? Seems to have a higher operating voltage. I am not a fan of bright LED light as it is sometimes too blue so I may stick with the P90 type unless you guys have more experience with the LEDs. 

Also I see some say to change out the lens.... Is it necessary for short intermittent use?. If I need to change it, can anyone suggest which one to get and where?

Thanks,
Ramon


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## ampdude (Feb 16, 2010)

Changing the lens is not necessary for the P90. You can run the stock lexan G2 lens with the P90 no problem, I have done so for a long, long time with no issues.

I can't believe the Tenergy 900mah cells ran a P60 for more than a split second, unless they were 3V regulated cells or there was something really wrong with them causing them to underperform voltage-wise.

The cells to get are AW's red IMR16340 cells, a WF-139 charger with spacers and a Surefire P90 lamp assembly. For brighter options, you can run the Lumens Factory HO-9, EO-9, or IMR-9 as well, but runtime will be shorter than with the P90 and switching to a UCL lens is recommended when using higher output 9 volt lamps than the Surefire P90.


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## mrfixit454 (Feb 16, 2010)

Thanks Ampdude,

Since you are intrigued with the use of a P60 and 900 mA Tenergies, here is a little bit of history... pleas bear with me. 

Did a little bit of reading on RCR123's and saw that I need to be careful so I bought a kit that had a controlled charger. The kit I bought said the final voltage was 3.6 and said they could be used in Cameras and Flashlights, so I thought I was good to go. 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002UEE7SU/?tag=cpf0b6-20

Got them mid December, charged both sets. Put the first pair in and used it a few times (6?) since then. Not more than a few minutes at a time. I dropped the light hard and feared I may have messed up the bulb a few weeks back but I guess these little guys can take it. 

The last 2 times I needed to use it, it would turn on, then off in a 15 seconds, would have to turn it off, then back on to get it to work. Yesterday it did this but did not come back on. I checked all contacts, cleaned them. I thought the batteries were dead. Put the second set (Charged a month ago) in and and no dice. Got out the volt meter and checked the new set in the body of the light (head off) and I am pretty sure I got 8.1 volts with the fresh set. Never got a chance to check the first set as I threw them in the charger. I will check them all tonight.

This is when I ran a continuity check across the bulb and got nothing. Started searching for bulbs and came across your great site and then found I may have messed up using RCR123's even though the literature on the Tenergy made it sound like it was usable for my application.

I would imagine it is safe to use the 900ma Tenergies with the P90 then???. I hate to have to get more batteries after just buying these but if I am asking for trouble using them, then I will have to change.

BTW.. My Father-in-Laws next door neighbor works for Surefire here in Fountain Valley CA. This is how we got the lights. We get a very little discount from him and we used to buy the brick of CR123's from him.

Thanks again for the help.. these really are cool little flashlights.
Ramon


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## mdocod (Feb 16, 2010)

zygibajt said:


> Halo,
> 
> question to mdocod
> 
> ...




Hi Bartek,

The P61 will be brighter than the LF bulbs...

If I were to do a quick and dirty LF to SF conversion for these lamps it would look something like this: (leave a +/-10L factor of guesswork here)

ES-6: ~45 lumen
SR-6: ~65 lumen
HO-6: ~80 lumen
EO-6: ~100 lumen

The P61 would be rated ~ 250 Lumen on a LF spec chart.


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## ampdude (Feb 16, 2010)

mrfixit454 said:


> Thanks Ampdude,
> 
> Since you are intrigued with the use of a P60 and 900 mA Tenergies, here is a little bit of history... pleas bear with me.
> 
> ...



Oh, I see. Yes that's the 3.0V charger, the cells come off their around 3.2-3.3V open circuit voltage I thought? Anyways, even if they come off at 3.2-3.3v, those batteries don't have the same voltage sag as primary lithiums, so the bulb is seeing considerably more voltage than spec should allow it should during the runtime.


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## mrfixit454 (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok.. made some measurements.. the set that has been charged once had 8.25 volts combined and the set that has 2 charges on it had 8.35 volts combined. So much for 3.6 volt batteries, or is that the nature of them until a load is applied?

Anyway, I order a few P90s so I should be good to go. Thanks for all the help. Now hat I have been researching this stuff, I may need a few accessories for the G2 

Also found this thread.. before the bulb blew, I was seeing the same thing which was normal I guess. If I have problems after the P90, I switch over to the AW's

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/222550

Ramon


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Feb 17, 2010)

The only type of rechargeable cells you should ever consider powering a P90, are the AW16340 Li-ion or the 16340 IMRs.


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## mdocod (Feb 17, 2010)

mrfixit454 said:


> Ok.. made some measurements.. the set that has been charged once had 8.25 volts combined and the set that has 2 charges on it had 8.35 volts combined. So much for 3.6 volt batteries, or is that the nature of them until a load is applied?
> 
> Anyway, I order a few P90s so I should be good to go. Thanks for all the help. Now hat I have been researching this stuff, I may need a few accessories for the G2
> 
> ...



Hello Ramon,

The Tenergy 900mAH 3.0V rechargeable RCR123 cells are actually 3.7V lithium cobalt cells with voltage bucking circuits hidden under the end cap and under shrink wrap. When they are measured open-circuit you will get different readings depending on the multi-meter in question because the very very small load that is presented by the meter will vary by make and model and will cause the reading to vary as the diode in the bucking circuit reacts. They are in fact charged to ~4.2V just like regular 3.7V cells, but under a load the bucking circuit is supposed to keep them under 3.6V and ideally closer to 3.0V. Under most loads they will discharge from ~3.3V to ~2.5V or so then shut off. It's important to note, that this behavior is still not even close to the behavior of a 3.0V CR123 primary cell, which will operate at or around 2.5V through the majority of the discharge into the load of a P60. This is why P60s can not survive the 3.0V rechargeable Tenergy cells, they simply do not share the same discharge behavior. (I guess the lesson to be learned here, is that you should never assume that things are the same just because a manufacture label would lead you to believe that they are). 

If you intend to purchase some 3.7V cells and intend to continue running incandecent lamps, like the P90, or ES-9, or SR-9, or HO-9, etc etc etc.... You will be best served to get the red label IMR16340s from AW as there is simply no better option for driving incans in this form factor. 

If you DO pick up some 3.7V cells like that though (whether red label IMR or black label LiCo cells or some other brand LiCo cells), it is absolutely imperative that you never ever use the charger that came with your 3.0V cells to charge them. 

The 3.0V Tenergy cells, as I said before, are actually just ordinary 3.7V LiCo cells, and need to be charged to 4.2V in order to work properly. However, that is still speaking of the cell behind the buck circuit. The buck circuit has a smaller voltage drop, but a voltage drop non-the-less when operated in reverse during charging, so the chargers that are designed for use with those specific type of cells actually must operate at a 4.4V charging voltage rather than 4.20V as found in normal chargers. 4.4V is enough to cause LiCo cells to vent with flame with a few repeated charges, and enough to cause a LiMn (IMR cell) to go "pop" semi-violently, again, with enough repeated charges. Not to mention, even if you were somehow lucky and didn't burn the house down with that charger, it would still dramatically kill the cycle life of any normal 3.7V cell. It is my recomendation that you rid yourself of all 3.0V cells and their associated chargers when you decide to get some 3.7V cells so that you don't accidentally use the wrong charger. 

Eric


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## mrfixit454 (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the replies. My initial research led me to believe there could be problems (fire hazards) with this type of battery, which is why I bought the kit batteries and charger so there would be no confusion. And I agree that I would never use this charger with any other batteries because of the incompatibility. 

Eric, 
That is an excellent write-up on how each type of battery works. I need to read a few more times but it now makes sense why I was reading the ~4.2 volts. I use a Sears DVM about a $60 unit so I think it is decent enough.. as compared to the Harbor Freight $6 volt meters  

I see the AW's are not too expensive nor are the charger that was recommended to me to use so I will probably go that route a little bit down the road. 

For now I will charge the Tenergies outside and when I am around during the entire cycle. I never thought batteries and flashlights could get so complicated.. not that it is a bad thing. I am glad you guys are around to help us all out.

Take Care
Ramon


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## mrfixit454 (Dec 1, 2011)

Well it has been almost 2 years since I posted here about the Tenergy's. I am ready to change them out and want to know if the IMR16340 batteries and WF-139 charger are still the way to go. I am running the P90 bulb. 

Should I go with an LED drop in and if so, which one? Does the LED require the lens replacement or is this just the high output incandescent? Will the recommended LED work with both the Tenergy's and the AW's??? 

I guess I am looking for current technology battery wise if it has changed since Feb of 2010.

Thanks,
Ramon


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## nfetterly (Dec 1, 2011)

With the red imr 16340s you can use a p91 if you wish, be better with a metal head though on you g2


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