# Changing LED Tint With Filters



## Derek Dean

*EDIT 3-11-21* Just a quick note of interest, it's come to my attention that the regular LEE filters fade VERY quickly when used in front of LEDs. It is now HIGHLY recommended that you purchase and use only LEE *ZIRCON* filters, which are specifically designed to be used with LEDs. Zircon material is twice as thick and highly resistant to fading. 

I found the Lee Zircon filter # 802, which is approx. equivalent to minus 1/4 green, to be nearly perfect for filtering ALL my Zebralights. 
=====================


Ok, I'll admit it, I've become a tint snob, and I used to agonize while waiting for a new light as to what tint the LED would be, but no more. 

I've now found the joy of customizing the tint on all of my lights to *EXACTLY* the tint I want thanks to the Lee Filter Swatch Book, which can be found here:
http://www.shop.leefiltersusa.com/Designer-Swatch-Book-SWB.htm

And this is the European Contact page:
http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/contact/

And here is a link to the Rosco site, they have different versions available:
http://www.rosco.com/us/products/lighting.cfm

These little books contains hundreds of different colored filters, from light magenta to dark magenta, or light blue to dark blue, or light yellow to dark yellow, etc. Some even contains diffusing filters! 

Each plastic filter is about 1 1/2" x 2 1/2". It can take a little time to find the right filter because there are so many colors to choose from, but it's honestly a lot of fun and not all that hard. 

If your light has a greenish tint, then you'll probably want one of the pink (magenta) filters, while I found the XP-G R5 LED in my new NiteCore IFE2 (which seem to be more of a cyan, or green-blue tint) needed a light orange filter. 

Each filter has a number. All you do is just hold each filter in front of the light and write down the numbers of the filters that seem to work well, and then after narrowing it down to 3 or 4, you finally pick the one that gives you the *perfect* tint. 

What's the perfect tint? Well, not only did I use a white wall, but I would aim the light at a bookcase with lots of colorful books, and I went into the kitchen and aimed it at soup cans, etc. Then I went outside and looked at plants. I couldn't believe how much better colors looked when rendered with the correct filter in front of the light. *AMAZING*. 

When you finally select the right filter, you'll want to cut out a small square of that filter about the size of the front glass cover. If you can get the bezel off of your light, you can simply remove it and place the glass on the plastic filter and trace around it with a pen and cut to size, then place the filter inside the glass front cover and reassemble (filter, glass, bezel)

On lights that I can't remove the bezel, I simply place the light, bezel down, on the filter and trace around it and cut it out, then taking my time, I'll begin trimming it until it fits down into the bezel area on top of the glass cover. Then I'll attach it using a reversible glue stick, and have found that it stays in place great. On my Jetbeam Bk-135A I didn't even have to use the glue stick, when I got it cut to size, I placed it down on the glass and it slid into place in a small groove. Neat!

The difference it makes in the quality of the light is dramatic, and usually with only a very small loss in light output, which is more than made up by having such a beautiful tint. 

I can't recommend this enough. Now, every time I use one of my lights I really enjoy the quality of the light as much as the physical aspects of the light itself.

So, rather than complaining about green or blue tints, customize every light you own with this simple, inexpensive, and easily reversible solution.


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## the.Mtn.Man

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*

I don't know if I'm a tint snob, but I was genuinely surprised when my wife said that she preferred cool white over warm high CRI because the former looked brighter. She didn't care a whit about accurate color rendering.


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## Derek Dean

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*

It may be more important to me because I was a professional color printer for many years and became very sensitive to even minor tint variations. 

I was very lucky with the first lights I purchased back in 2006, which had SSC P4 LEDs and seemed to have very neutral tints. However, I've noticed many of my recent light purchases,which were only available with Cree cool white LEDs, have had cyanish tints, my least favorite tint since it can cause things to look flat and lifeless. 

Luckily, by using filters I've been able fix that on all of those lights, and because all of them are more than bright enough for my needs, the slight loss in brightness is inconsequential. 

I know this has been posted before, but I've been seeing more and more CPF members expressing dissatisfaction with their tints and felt this information was worth repeating.


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## qwertyydude

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



the.Mtn.Man said:


> I don't know if I'm a tint snob, but I was genuinely surprised when my wife said that she preferred cool white over warm high CRI because the former looked brighter. She didn't care a whit about accurate color rendering.


 
Accurate color rendering is relative. A 100 cri at a color temperature of 3000k would be crap compared to a cool or neutral white led at 75 CRI. One thing to keep in mind is that the moveie and photography industry use HMI lighting and it's only about 85 CRI but is the exact tint of noonday sunlight and I guarantee you when they turn that on the colors are just as accurate as sunlight to any but the most trained eyes.


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## GaAslamp

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



Derek Dean said:


> I've now found the joy of customizing the tint on all of my lights to *EXACTLY* the tint I want thanks to the Lee Filter Swatch Book, which can be found here:
> http://www.shop.leefiltersusa.com/Sw...2.qscstrfrnt02



I guess I'm a tint snob, too, and since I work with telescope filters, the thought of using filters on flashlights has crossed my mind, although I'm not exactly thrilled with losing even more output, and for me what's important is not only the appearance of the tint but the resulting spectrum. However, what I didn't realize until now (due to previous experience) was that the spectrum of each filter is available online, which means that I can find the best match if it exists.  I may not end up using filters on a regular basis, but thanks to your post I'm intrigued enough to experiment with them.



Derek Dean said:


> I was very lucky with the first lights I purchased back in 2006, which had SSC P4 LEDs and seemed to have very neutral tints. However, I've noticed many of my recent light purchases,which were only available with Cree cool white LEDs, have had cyanish tints, my least favorite tint since it can cause things to look flat and lifeless.



Yeah, there is often too much blue and green, and not enough red. Ironically spectral cyan is rather lacking, as is the case with most white LEDs. The starting point for my initial experiments will be a high-CRI 4000K LED that generally has excellent color balance but a bit too much yellow and orange. If I can tone down those areas of its spectrum without affecting the overall balance between the other color ranges (while raising its color temperature to somewhere between 5000K and 6500K), then the result could potentially be the most accurate LED flashlight spectrum--with respect to sunlight--that I've seen to date. Some of the light blue and lavender filters look promising, but I still have a bunch of filter spectra to scrutinize.



qwertyydude said:


> Accurate color rendering is relative. A 100 cri at a color temperature of 3000k would be crap compared to a cool or neutral white led at 75 CRI.



Exactly, 3000K doesn't cut it for accuracy if sunlight is your ideal reference, for example--color balance is more important overall than how well an LED's spectrum matches that of an ideal incandescent source at the same color temperature (i.e. CRI).

That said, even when using filters to correct the tint, it is generally better to start with a high-CRI emitter because there will be less that is missing, as filters can only subtract ranges of color, not add them. Many low-CRI warm white LEDs are too lacking in blue to fully save, and the same goes for low-CRI cool white LEDs with regard to their general lack of red. Well, you could correct these deficiencies with darker filters, but then the light loss would be tremendous.



qwertyydude said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that the moveie and photography industry use HMI lighting and it's only about 85 CRI but is the exact tint of noonday sunlight and I guarantee you when they turn that on the colors are just as accurate as sunlight to any but the most trained eyes.



My 85 CRI flashlight comes pretty close as it is, but now I'm going to find out how much closer it can get to virtually perfect color rendering. :thumbsup:


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## Cheapskate

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



qwertyydude said:


> Accurate color rendering is relative. A 100 cri at a color temperature of 3000k would be crap compared to a cool or neutral white led at 75 CRI. One thing to keep in mind is that the moveie and photography industry use HMI lighting and it's only about 85 CRI but is the exact tint of noonday sunlight and I guarantee you when they turn that on the colors are just as accurate as sunlight to any but the most trained eyes.


 
I salute you! You get it.

I now cringe everytime I see someone launch into tint pontification mode in a thread. I am old enough to have spent a good bit of time taking photographs on film. Sometimes those photos have unavoidably been taken indoors with only an incandescent light source. The results, of course, are a horrible orange cast to everything with very poor colour rendition of cooler colours.

High CRI with spectral imbalance is *worse* than lower CRI with better spectral balance.

A lot of people deride cool white LEDs declaring them to be unfit for anything because of their complete inability to render warm colours. I spotted this in the recent thread about the girlfriend wanting a powerful flash light for her walk-in closet



> One potential issue might be the tint, as the current version is a little on the cool side which might make identifying certain colors of clothes or shoes more difficult, but there is supposed to be a neutral version coming very soon...many people are waiting, it seems.


When these sort of statements pop up on CPF I just mentally cringe. It is taken as fact that a cool white LED can not render warm colours or allow subtle differences to be differentiated. I took photos of paint charts lit with a cool white LED source to prove this, such as this one:







Ooops, looks like I failed!  The top pic was lit with an NDI while the bottom was lit with sunlight. The camera white balance was set to daylight for both shots.

I have taken several other photos of paint colour charts and there is no problem differentiating between subtle warm shades.

I also played around with filters a bit and took photos, but my only digital camera at the time was a 2.5mp phone and it's low light performance was not very good, but here are a couple of photos that might be of interest:






Those filters when put to use - except for the skylight which is too subtle.






The teflon was there because I have a large roll of transparent teflon tape which has a silicone adhesive backing and thought it might be more practical than carving up a perfectly good Hoya 81A as it could be cut to shape and just stuck on the lens and could be removed easily if required. I never bothered because my experiments left me perfectly happy with cool tints.

The photos do demonstrated that there is a cost in output with using filters.


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## samuraishot

Thanks for the interesting post and link, DD. I just placed an order and can't wait to try it out!


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## qwertyydude

Cheapskate I salute you for getting it too, wish you had a warm led to take comparison shots of a paint sample set. Warm, Cool, and Sunlight. The warm thing is as much psychology as it is actual color rendering. If it was truly color rendering you're after I'd go with neutral white leds never warm.

Both my P7 led flashlight and my one luck of the tint lottery XR-E neutral white led has a hotspot very near noonday sunlight with only the slightest bit of green for the XR-E and pretty much spot on with the P7. I can actually use it to calibrate my computer monitor pretty close to sunlight when comparing the monitor to a photo printout from my color calibrated printer. I would never be able to so with a warm white led, in fact I have to turn of my warm CFL room light just to do the monitor calibration because it messes up the color rendering on the photo.


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## the.Mtn.Man

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



qwertyydude said:


> Accurate color rendering is relative. A 100 cri at a color temperature of 3000k would be crap compared to a cool or neutral white led at 75 CRI. One thing to keep in mind is that the moveie and photography industry use HMI lighting and it's only about 85 CRI but is the exact tint of noonday sunlight and I guarantee you when they turn that on the colors are just as accurate as sunlight to any but the most trained eyes.


 
It's a matter of preference. I find cool tints to be too glaring and not particularly pleasing, especially at lower levels. My current EDC is an Ra Clicky at around 3000k and a CRI of 93, to my eyes it's the best flashlight beam I've ever used.

But hey, I'd love it if we started seeing 85 CRI cool whites on the market. Then maybe we'd have half a chance of things looking their proper color instead of overly blue.

As for the movie industry, they use HMI when they're trying to match sunlight or when trying to make a studio set look like it's outdoors (the other option is to take an incandescent source and put a daylight blue gel over it). Otherwise they tend to use 3200K incans or the LED or fluorescent equivalent.


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## the.Mtn.Man

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



Cheapskate said:


> I am old enough to have spent a good bit of time taking photographs on film. Sometimes those photos have unavoidably been taken indoors with only an incandescent light source. The results, of course, are a horrible orange cast to everything with very poor colour rendition of cooler colours.


 
That's because you were using daylight balanced film, bro. You get the same effect with a digital camera if you white balance in sunlight and try taking pictures under 3200K conditions. The opposite effect is also interesting: if you white balance indoors and then take pictures outdoors, everything will be varying shades of sickly blue.


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## Cheapskate

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*

Do you see that 80A filter in the pic I posted?.........


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## Derek Dean

samuraishot said:


> Thanks for the interesting post and link, DD. I just placed an order and can't wait to try it out!


I think you'll find it very worth the time and small investment. I hope you'll post your results. 

I found the key to using these filters is to not be in a hurry when selecting the right one for each light. I would play with them for a while with the light, narrow it down to 3 or 4, and then go do something else for a while. This would give my eyes a chance to readjust to regular viewing conditions. 

Often I will pick my favorite and then go to bed and wait for the next night to see if it was still my favorite, and some times I would change my mind and go with my secondary choice. 

For me the idea was to get a tint that was just a tiny bit warm, with just a teeny tiny hint of red. That's MY preference, which is what's so cool about this. It let's each one of us fine tune our lights to what is best for own individual eyes and preferences.

The great thing about this is that you get INSTANT feedback. You just aim your light at something with lots of different colors (yes, a Macbeth Color Checker would be ideal, but soup cans work REALLY well too ) and move the filters in and out of the light path. When you get the right filter all of a sudden the colors pop and look "right". The greens are green, the reds are red, the yellows are yellow, and hopefully the whites looks white. 

My NovaTac 120P needed only a very light magenta filter, while my Nitecore IFE2 needed a fairly heavy orange filter, but now the tints of both lights are more or less identical and both render colors much better now. 

I've found the biggest plus for doing this is when using my lights outside. The difference when walking outside at night is huge. Not only are the colors of the plants and the ground more accurate, but because the colors are now distinct (without that cyanish haze over everything) there is much more contrast, which makes for a much more pleasant and safe experience, at least for me. 

In any case, I'm enjoying the discussion. It's nice that we've come far enough along in the progression of LED technology to move beyond how bright or efficient an LED is, and begin talking about where we want it go in terms of color rendering and tint.


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## Cataract

Thanks for the info... I was looking for something just like this :thumbsup:

How much heat can these filters take??


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## Derek Dean

Cataract said:


> How much heat can these filters take??


You could always contact Lee Filters for an exact answer, but they're designed for use with high intensity professional lighting, so I imagine they can survive most LED flashlight use. 

As far as filtering a powerful incandescent light with them, I would be a bit concerned with trying to place one inside the glass cover with no way to cool off, but it might still be worth a try.


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## Cheapskate

deleted


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## Cheapskate

qwertyydude said:


> Cheapskate I salute you for getting it too, wish you had a warm led to take comparison shots of a paint sample set.


 
I have acquired one since I took those original pics, so here are 3 different LEDs vs sunlight:


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## Walterk

Besides tints, could you please inform us how these Lee filters work for diffusion ?
I know it works for the Maxabeam, so suppose it works for any light (except Mag-lite maybe  ).


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## qwertyydude

Now I see with the warm, on the right side the greens and browns are more difficult to distinguish although reds are slightly better rendered. But I'd still say the neutral looking Jetbeam Jet I Pro gets closest.


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## Cheapskate

That's my thinking also. I really like the Jet I pro tint and I dislike the tint of the Ti. I really should mod it.


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## shao.fu.tzer

I asked for one of those swatch books and they sent it to me for free, albeit about two months later. It's full of film of every color and texture... tinted film, diffuser film.. everything. It's huge... Definitely going to need to experiment more with it.

Shao


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## GaAslamp

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



Cheapskate said:


> I now cringe everytime I see someone launch into tint pontification mode in a thread. I am old enough to have spent a good bit of time taking photographs on film. Sometimes those photos have unavoidably been taken indoors with only an incandescent light source. The results, of course, are a horrible orange cast to everything with very poor colour rendition of cooler colours.
> 
> High CRI with spectral imbalance is *worse* than lower CRI with better spectral balance.



The colors under solid-filament-based incandescent lighting may be inaccurate due to the spectral imbalance (unfiltered), but it's not any worse at rendering cool colors than cool white LEDs are at rendering warm colors. Also, distinguishing between colors is manageable under both types of lighting.



Cheapskate said:


> A lot of people deride cool white LEDs declaring them to be unfit for anything because of their complete inability to render warm colours.



Some folks believe that the emission spectra of white LEDs consist of only a few huge, narrow spikes, but it's actually continuous (with some spikes and "valleys" to be sure), so I agree that it's possible to distinguish between most colors, including warm ones (although the accuracy of the latter is generally very poor).



Cheapskate said:


> I spotted this in the recent thread about the girlfriend wanting a powerful flash light for her walk-in closet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One potential issue might be the tint, as the current version is a little on the cool side which might make identifying certain colors of clothes or shoes more difficult, but there is supposed to be a neutral version coming very soon...many people are waiting, it seems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When these sort of statements pop up on CPF I just mentally cringe.
Click to expand...


I don't see anything wrong with that statement. :thinking: For example, the girlfriend may have some trouble finding a fuchsia-colored article of clothing if it looks lavender or even deep purple under cool white LED lighting, sort of like in the following example (I grabbed whatever was convenient ):

Sunlight (my ideal reference):






Cool white LED:





Perhaps she could make some mental adjustments in order to compensate, but wouldn't it be preferable to use a flashlight that more accurately renders colors instead?



Cheapskate said:


> It is taken as fact that a cool white LED can not render warm colours or allow subtle differences to be differentiated.



They're rendered and can be differentiated, but that doesn't change the fact that they can be way off. In my photo above, you can tell the difference between all of the colors under cool white LED lighting, but the yellow looks pale (almost greenish) instead of slightly orangish (like a school bus) and the teddy bear's fur looks significantly more purplish than it does under sunlight.

By the way, when my filters arrive and I've had a chance to experiment with them, I'll revisit this topic in this thread. At the moment, my unfiltered ZebraLight H51c (4000K CCT, 85 CRI) renders the above subject thusly:





Hmmm...a bit too much yellow in the whites and a little too much red in some colors, but pretty accurate overall (more so than other LEDs I've used or seen to date). I think that a very pale blue or lavender filter--with the right spectrum, not merely the right tint--could make it nearly perfect. :thinking:


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## Cheapskate

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



GaAslamp said:


> The colors under solid-filament-based incandescent lighting may be inaccurate due to the spectral imbalance (unfiltered), but it's not any worse at rendering cool colors than cool white LEDs are at rendering warm colors. Also, distinguishing between colors is manageable under both types of lighting.



If you say so.


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## Derek Dean

Walterk said:


> Besides tints, could you please inform us how these Lee filters work for diffusion ?


Most of the tinted filters have no diffusion quality, letting the beam pass unaltered except for tint. However, some of the tinted filters are opaque, giving both tint and diffusion. 

Also, there are a large number of semi-clear or white diffusion swatches. Some of them are a kind of thin, papery material, and add a diffusion with a textured feeling, like light filtered through tree leaves, and some are the same type of plastic material that the colored filters are made from, but with varying degrees of diffusion, from mild to quite heavy.

I was just playing with the diffusion filters and found one (HT 254 Frost) that is quite excellent, giving a very mild, beam smoothing diffusion without completely killing the center spot. Very nice!

My guess is that there are roughly 30-40 different diffusion swatches.

Edit: By the way, if you live in Europe or the UK, you might have better luck requesting the Swatch Book from the UK Office:
http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/contact/


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## GaAslamp

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



Cheapskate said:


> If you say so.



As a matter of fact, I do say so, at least according to what my eyes see under incandescent lighting. If your photo represents what you see to a significant degree, then might I suggest scheduling an appointment with an ophthalmologist?  Kidding aside, I could take photos like that, too, if I used a daylight or other high-CCT white balance setting, but all I'd really be doing is demonstrating the limitations of my camera rather than showing others a reasonable approximation of what I'm actually seeing.

Using the same colorful subject I used earlier for comparison, here is a photo taken under incandescent lighting. To be perfectly honest, I can see and distinguish between cool colors such as shades of blue much more readily in person than in this photo, but they still do show up well enough for me to post this as a worst case example that still supports the point I was making.





And since we're talking about clothing in closets, I went to a closet in my home, picked a random spot that had some cool colors (some of which have subtle distinctions), closed the door, turned on the incandescent light inside, and snapped a photo. As in the photo right above, the colors are not entirely accurate, but the cool ones are distinguishable (even more so in person), and could be identified if you're accustomed to looking for clothes under such lighting (although accurate color rendering makes it easier and is always preferable).





Not that I need to provide one shred of photographic evidence, mind you, as anybody who has ever used tungsten-filament incandescent lighting knows from their own long experience that it's not nearly as bad as your photo makes it out to be (nor mine, for that matter, despite my effort to make them reflect what I see--cameras are not human eyes).


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## Derek Dean

Of course the nice thing about using these filters is that you don't have to convince anybody of anything, and you don't have to worry about white balance, or tungsten lighting, or spectral analysis, or anything else. 

You don't have to know how to work a digital camera and you don't have to know anything about color. 

All you have to do is turn on your light and keep putting different filters in front of it until you find the one that gives you the tint YOU like . For many folks that will probably mean getting it to look more white, but some folks might prefer a bit of pink, or a bit of yellow, or a bit of blue. 

Not only that, but if you change your mind down the line and decide you'd like it a little warmer or cooler, all you have to do is cut another filter out and pop it in.

The sky is the limit and their aren't any rules. 

Want a purple beam? That's how I got my CPF photo. When I first got these filters I put the purple filter over my flashlight and took a picture of myself :naughty:. It kind of freaks people out when you show them your neat new light and turn it on and it's super duper bright purple :devil:.


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## leon2245

Cheapskate said:


> I have acquired one since I took those original pics, so here are 3 different LEDs vs sunlight:


 
Nice!


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## Cheapskate

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*

What the camera sees is very relevant, because it gives us an objective view of the spectral balance of a light source. Because our brains are incredibly powerful signal processors, what we perceive is not the same as reality.

The tungsten and warm LED I used have a spectral balance which renders colours poorly, compared to the cool XR-E, which of the light sources I used, gives the closest approximation of Daylight. Our brains are certainly able to process the skewed spectra of tungsten and the warm LEDs and let us perceive colours, but to my eyes/brain, a cooler led gives a better result in terms of colour rendering, probably because less 'processing' is required.

I don't mind people saying they prefer tungsten or warm LED's, but when they say cool LED's can't render warm colours well, they are simply wrong.

Be careful with that argument that your brain can adjust for the spectral imbalance imposed by tungsten and warm LEDs, because it can just as easily be turned around to argue that it can also compensate for discerning warm colours lit with a cool light source.


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## GaAslamp

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



Derek Dean said:


> Of course the nice thing about using these filters is that you don't have to convince anybody of anything, and you don't have to worry about white balance, or tungsten lighting, or spectral analysis, or anything else.



Those who care about accurate color rendering do. If all you care about is the aesthetic of the tint, then that's fine, but it's not the be-all-end-all of filtering light.



Derek Dean said:


> You don't have to know how to work a digital camera and you don't have to know anything about color.
> 
> All you have to do is turn on your light and keep putting different filters in front of it until you find the one that gives you the tint YOU like .



Sure, but without some objective guidance in the process, it would take much longer. Besides, I already like the tints of most of my lights well enough (except for one really green LED)--it's their color rendering that leaves much to be desired. I'm not sure how much filtering could help most of them (while keeping light loss within reason), but maybe I could at least nudge my best one slightly closer to perfect color rendering (and give it a tint closer to that of sunlight).



Derek Dean said:


> The sky is the limit and their aren't any rules.



If color accuracy is your goal, then there are. 



Cheapskate said:


> What the camera sees is very relevant, because it gives us an objective view of the spectral balance of a light source. Because our brains are incredibly powerful signal processors, what we perceive is not the same as reality.



I agree in principle, but what your camera utterly fails to show in your example, due to its limitations, is the *reality* that there is enough blue in common tungsten-filament incandescent lighting for the human eye (and visual system as a whole) to see "cool" colors and discriminate between them. That was my assertion, it's just as true now as when I first said it, anybody can see this for themselves at the mere flick of a switch, and your photo does absolutely nothing to contradict it (only presents a false representation of the underlying reality).

In fact, I'm pretty sure that your camera would be able to capture and discriminate between "cool" colors (like mine can, and it's not a great camera) if you let it adjust its own white balance, working around its limitations. Otherwise, photos would look as though there were virtually no blue in incandescent lighting, which is demonstrably false (there is way too little blue for accuracy, that's true, but there is enough to see and distinguish between "cool" colors, which was my point). That would make for a closer representation of what people are able to see, which is what most of us, I'd venture to guess, are concerned about.



Cheapskate said:


> The tungsten and warm LED I used have a spectral balance which renders colours poorly, compared to the cool XR-E, which of the light sources I used, gives the closest approximation of Daylight.



Cool white XR-Es are deficient at red wavelengths, which makes them just about as poor at color rendering accuracy as incandescent lights (as shown in my previous example). XP-Gs are even worse on paper, by the way, but I haven't bothered to split hairs over which is worse--they're all bad. I will say that cool white LEDs are closer to sunlight when it comes to rendering whites and grays, but that's just one aspect of color rendering.



Cheapskate said:


> Our brains are certainly able to process the skewed spectra of tungsten and the warm LEDs and let us perceive colours,



But we can't perceive colors that aren't there to begin with! That would be known as imagination, not perception. Just like cool white LEDs allow us to perceive a skewed version of "warm" colors, incandescent lighting allows us to perceive a skewed version of "cool" colors. You're saying that the latter isn't true because the colors don't show up in your photo, but I say that it is true because I can SEE them with my own eyes and they show up in MY photos (you could suggest that I merely imagined the colors, but I'm reasonably certain that my camera did not).



Cheapskate said:


> but to my eyes/brain, a cooler led gives a better result in terms of colour rendering, probably because less 'processing' is required.



And now we finally get to subjective opinion, which is highly dependent on the differences between individuals. If I had to choose--and it's not easy because they're both so awful as well as different in their inaccuracies--I would say that incandescent lighting allows me to see slightly more accurate color rendering overall. This is despite the fact that I MUCH prefer the tint of cool white LEDs when illuminating white and gray objects. However, colors just look so bluish and greenish under cool white LED lighting, while my eyes are better able to compensate for the equally--but oppositely--skewed color balance of incandescent lighting. Maybe I'm just more accustomed to it, but the difference is not great, in any case--both types of lighting are suitable for distinguishing between colors and identifying them (with some effort for some colors), even though accuracy for both is poor. Those who think that cool white LEDs cannot render "warm" colors are mistaken, and likewise those who think that incandescent lighting cannot render "cool" colors are equally mistaken.



Cheapskate said:


> I don't mind people saying they prefer tungsten or warm LED's, but when they say cool LED's can't render warm colours well, they are simply wrong.



Where we differ is that I think incandescent lighting renders "cool" colors about as well as cool white LED lighting renders "warm" colors (i.e. poorly but adequate for most practical purposes). This is partly because the spectra of both are continuous, whereas with typical fluorescent or street lighting, to name a couple of examples, we may have great difficulty with certain colors.



Cheapskate said:


> Be careful with that argument that your brain can adjust for the spectral imbalance imposed by tungsten and warm LEDs, because it can just as easily be turned around to argue that it can also compensate for discerning warm colours lit with a cool light source.



Where did I ever say otherwise? :ironic: My basic assertion was (quoted from my first post on this subtopic): "distinguishing between colors is manageable under both types of lighting," which referred to cool white LEDs and incandescent lighting. By the way, this includes whatever automatic processing goes on in our heads and in most cameras if you let them do it. The fact that it doesn't work in your "objective" photo that was supposed to capture "reality"--but could NOT because of your camera's lack of dynamic range--is neither interesting nor relevant to my simple, easily verifiable assertion and the reality of human perception.


----------



## Derek Dean

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*

My point with this thread wasn't to use filters to create a perfect color rendering light source, but only to share with other CPF members an inexpensive, easy, and completely reversible way to change the tint on their lights to virtually any color they want ..... warm, cool, pink, yellow, amber, red, etc. 

I've read so many threads recently where folks talked about how much they liked everything about a new light they had recently acquired EXCEPT FOR IT'S TINT, and I felt that this was a wonderful way to help those folks change that one aspect of their light to make it perfect FOR THEM. 

When asking manufacturers why they don't do a better job of picking their LED tints, I've heard the same answer over and over and over. "Oh, tint is such a subjective thing. What I think is a good tint might not be good to your eyes, so there's no point in worrying about it". 

Well finally we are no longer held captive by a manufacturer's choice of LED tint bins. We now have the power to make our wonderful lighting instruments produce the color light that is perfect for OUR EYES, and it won't require a soldering gun or trying to figure out which tint bin is right, it only takes holding these little filters up to the light, selecting the one we like, and then cutting it to size. 

What could be easier?


----------



## samuraishot

That's how I also understood as the reason you started this thread :thumbsup:


----------



## GaAslamp

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



Derek Dean said:


> My point with this thread wasn't to use filters to create a perfect color rendering light source, but only to share with other CPF members an inexpensive, easy, and completely reversible way to change the tint on their lights to virtually any color they want ..... warm, cool, pink, yellow, amber, red, etc.



I understand that.



Derek Dean said:


> What could be easier?



Taking this quote slightly out of context , for one thing just flat-out saying that expanding the subject beyond the narrow scope you defined is unwelcome. If that is the case, then I will respect your wishes and refrain from commenting on anything outside of that scope in this thread.


----------



## samuraishot

I just got my book of filters from Lee. I did a quick test using an XPG R5-1C and just quickly flipped through the colors and it's neat how things turn out.

If I understand the instructions correctly each filter has a page of information that includes the percentage of light transmitted by each filter.






Be careful though, I tried it out with a Moddoolar triple head with XPG R4s and some filters can't take the heat too well and warp within a few seconds (on high, of course). The good thing is that they also have filters that are High Temperature grade.

Try it, it's fun!

:thumbsup:


----------



## Diablo_331

I just ordered two of the booklets to play with. They were pretty cheap.


----------



## samuraishot

Diablo_331 said:


> I just ordered two of the booklets to play with. They were pretty cheap.


 
Did you use the discount code to get one for just a penny?


----------



## brembo

7 bucks for two books shipped, nice.

I use a calibration DVD to get my displays on the proper temps, called Avia Guide to Home Theatre or something like that, search Avia if it interests you. The DVD came with strips of filter that you hold up and match flashing bars within bars so the flashing bits vanish. Calibrated displays look odd at first, as most displays come with hugely overdone reds. Now with this Lee filter book I can dial out the blue in my XM-L lights and make em closer to pure white.


----------



## Derek Dean

I just got one of the $31 Fenix LD01 SS lights yesterday (what a nice deal from Tool Nut), and like everybody else mine had a greenish cyanish tint, but it only took me about half an hour to figure out the right filter, cut it to size, and stick it down over the front glass (the head is sealed).

It's neat that if you're really careful and take your time you can cut the filter so that it doesn't even need any adhesive to stick to the glass. It just kind of sticks down in there against the sides. 

Now it's got a nice slightly creamy warm tint...... lovely.


----------



## Diablo_331

Yea I used the discount code. I hope I can make these work.


----------



## Derek Dean

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



GaAslamp said:


> Taking this quote slightly out of context , for one thing just flat-out saying that expanding the subject beyond the narrow scope you defined is unwelcome. If that is the case, then I will respect your wishes and refrain from commenting on anything outside of that scope in this thread.


Sorry,I meant to respond to this earlier and got distracted.

I see you're a new member (welcome by the way), so maybe you didn't realize , but we do try to stay *on topic *in these threads, otherwise they tend to ramble all over the place.

I think it would be more appropriate if you were to include in your discussion, how to use the Lee Filter Swatch pack to achieve better color rendition with the various LEDs, and in particular precisely which filters you are using with which LEDs. OR, *if it's even possible* to use these filters to achieve near perfect color rendition, and at what cost in brightness. 

For instance, when I recently got my NiteCore IFE2 with an XP-G R5 cool white LED, I found that the filter from *page 90* (a medium orange color) seemed to work best to give me excellent color rendition and a very slightly warm tint, AND I found *that same filter* worked best with my new Fenix LD01 SS XP-G R5 cool white LED as well! 

So, for folks having lights with an XP-G R5 cool white LED, you might use the filter found on page 90 as a starting point for your tests. 

Anyway, my intentions weren't to stop your discussion, but merely to steer it back towards the original topic of using filters.


----------



## Diablo_331

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*

I received my two booklets today and have spend the last hour or so trying out different filters with my Peak Eiger. I found a few that I like but will take Derek Dean's advice and sleep on it until I start cutting. I also tried the filters with my SC51c and I didn't see anything that made it any better IMHO. Have you played around with your SC51c and the filters yet Derek Dean? I would really appreciate some feedback if so! Now I have an entire 96 hours to mess around with it some more.


----------



## leon2245

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



GaAslamp said:


> I understand that.
> 
> 
> 
> Taking this quote slightly out of context , for one thing just flat-out saying that expanding the subject beyond the narrow scope you defined is unwelcome. If that is the case, then I will respect your wishes and refrain from commenting on anything outside of that scope in this thread.


 
DEfinitely not, this thread was getting interesting!


----------



## davecroft

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*

Personally, I don't mind whether a LED is warm white, cool white or neutral as long as it is bright enough to see by. My knowledge of the subject is very limited but I always understood the eye was very good at compensating for differences in lighting. Daylight under a clear sky is blueish due to the amount of blue in the sky, and shadows under a blue sky are very blue, but who actually 'sees' that? Bearing that in mind I don't see why a slightly blue LED should be the problem that it seems to be for a lot of people, unless you are doing some task that requires very detailed colour matching. Obviously I'm missing something. When walking the dog at night I don't mind if a tree looks a bit blue or even a bit yellow as long as I can see it!


----------



## leon2245

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



Derek Dean said:


> I see you're a new member (welcome by the way), so maybe you didn't realize , but we do try to stay *on topic *in these threads, otherwise they tend to ramble all over the place.
> 
> I think it would be more appropriate if you were to include in your discussion, how to use the Lee Filter Swatch pack to achieve better color rendition with the various LEDs, and in particular precisely which filters you are using with which LEDs. OR, *if it's even possible* to use these filters to achieve near perfect color rendition, and at what cost in brightness.
> 
> For instance, when I recently got my NiteCore IFE2 with an XP-G R5 cool white LED, I found that the filter from *page 90* (a medium orange color) seemed to work , my intentions weren't to stop your discussion...



Exactly. Here at cpf, we try to stay *on topic*. So let's everyone be sure to first & foremost state your light & the *color* you picked for it from the* Lee Filter Swatch Pack®* book (don't forget the *page number!*); but also much thanks to Derek Dean for allowing those guys a little latitude in your thread at the same time. You handled that *graciously!*

lovecpf


----------



## MatNeh

Derek Dean said:


> I just got one of the $31 Fenix LD01 SS lights yesterday (what a nice deal from Tool Nut), and like everybody else mine had a greenish cyanish tint, but it only took me about half an hour to figure out the right filter, cut it to size, and stick it down over the front glass (the head is sealed).
> 
> It's neat that if you're really careful and take your time you can cut the filter so that it doesn't even need any adhesive to stick to the glass. It just kind of sticks down in there against the sides.
> 
> Now it's got a nice slightly creamy warm tint...... lovely.


 Which filter did you use? I have a green LD01 too.


----------



## Derek Dean

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



davecroft said:


> Personally, I don't mind whether a LED is warm white, cool white or neutral as long as it is bright enough to see by. My knowledge of the subject is very limited but I always understood the eye was very good at compensating for differences in lighting. Daylight under a clear sky is blueish due to the amount of blue in the sky, and shadows under a blue sky are very blue, but who actually 'sees' that? Bearing that in mind I don't see why a slightly blue LED should be the problem that it seems to be for a lot of people, unless you are doing some task that requires very detailed color matching. Obviously I'm missing something. When walking the dog at night I don't mind if a tree looks a bit blue or even a bit yellow as long as I can see it!


*Howdy Dave and welcome to CPF.* Yes, the eye (actually the brain) is VERY good at helping to compensate for the different colors of light we encounter every day, but there are those of us who, through experience, have become acutely aware of these different colors of light. 

I got my degree in photography and was a professional color printer for many years, so my eyes are finely tuned to notice those things. Before we had the automatic white balance found it today's digital cameras, we had to use a yellow filter to get rid of that extreme bluish light found in the shade, and we had to use a magenta filter to get rid of the greenish cast found under typical florescent lighting. So, I'm especially sensitive to tint, and while none of my lights had a "horrible" tint, I found that color correcting them gives me a more pleasant experience. 

It's one of those things you might not even notice until you see an unfiltered light next to a correctly filtered one, and all of a sudden you go "oh", and from then on you find that a more neutral tint is higher on your list of priorities when selecting a new light.

What's neat is that now I don't have to delete a light from my list of candidates just because it doesn't have a neutral LED, because I know I can filter it when it arrives and get it close to my personal preference. 

As far as using LED lights outside, that's probably the primary reason you SHOULD consider using filters to color correct your light. When you shine a light with a noticeable cyanish or bluish tint on bushes, ground, or trees, you'll find the contrast much lower, and if you filter out that cyanish light, all of a sudden the colors become distinct with much higher contrast, hopefully making outdoor walking not only more enjoyable, but safer as well.

However, if you're happy with your lights the way they are, that's fine. It's very possible your lights came with LEDs that already have good color rendering qualities. I'm not trying to convert anybody, I've just been reading lately how many folks have been unhappy with the tint of their lights and thought I would share this easy, inexpensive, and totally reversible method that I have found works so well for me.

* Mat*, I used the filter on page 90 for my new Fenix SS LD01. Of course it is on the outside of the glass, so it will eventually get scratched up and might need to be replaced, but so far it's been in my pocket for a week and the filter still looks pristine. I don't mind replacing the filter occasionally if that's what it takes to get beautifully colored light from this neat little flashlight.

The filter on page 90 would be a good place for you to start, but be sure and try LOTS of others. Often the differences can be subtle, which is why I like evaluating the light using soup can labels, or colorful books, etc. When you get the right filter the colors tend to look "right". Also, your idea of what's a good tint might be completely different from my idea of a good tint, so only use the page numbers as a starting point.

* Diablo_331*, I don't have the Zebralight SC51c, so I can't comment on that, but the beam shots I've seen posted show it with excellent color rendering abilities as it is.

Remember, if you are trying to get a "whiter" light, generally what you will be doing is FILTERING OUT the excessive or dominant color of the LED, and you do that by picking a filter that is the OPPOSITE color of the one you are trying to filter out.

* Here is a color wheel*:
http://www.colormatters.com/colortheory.html

Just look at the wheel and find the color that closely matches the current tint of flashlight (the tint that you want to change or get rid of), then look at the opposite side of the wheel and that will show you the color that you should be starting with to get rid of the offending tint, although you will probably want to start with a lighter variation of that color, as the darker the filter, the more you will reduce the output of your light, so go with the lightest filter you can live with.

So, if your light has a greenish color, then add a magenta filter. If your light has a cyanish color (green AND blue), then add a red or orange filter (which is magenta and yellow). If your light has an excessive yellow cast, add a blue filter. This will reduce that dominate color and provide a more balanced spectral output.

The main mistake that most folks make, who are new to color correction, is that they tend to over correct. The easiest way to approach this is to *NOT* try to perfectly correct the tint, but just help it become closer to your ideal. Obviously the more time you spend playing with the filters, the better your chances of finding the right one, and *giving your eyes a rest between sessions will help as well.*

Of course the great thing about this is that you can always go back and easily change to a different filter if you ever decide you want to. 

In any case, I'm glad to hear that you'all are experimenting with these filters, and I'll be interested to follow everybody's progress.


----------



## RedLED

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*

Guy's

Please, just put the gel in front of the light on a white wall (And there are hundreds of shades of white) and pick the color you like best. You could use a White Card if you do not have white walls. We use these cards to set our color balance in the camera.

Something to think about, in the real world things work different sometimes. I have been the set photographer for many motion pictures, and they light up multi million dollar scenes with a foam board.

Once, I remember the lighting director holding up different color gels in front of the key light, and asking, how about that? the DP shrugged his shoulders, looks ok, and the director said great: ACTION! Then, CUT... wait, let's see the other one again...no forget it, marker, action!

Let the LED manufacturers get the color temperature correct in the LED itself, this is always the best. Future LED color Temp. are only going to get better, and better.

You can also try _Rosco_, they are the other company that makes Gel's, and both _lee_ and _Rosco_ offer more than one sample book. Go to a Grip Supply if your town happens has one. 

It is fun to use the Gel's on lights, I have been doing this since the 80's, when I was making my Mini Mag lights soft and red.

Best, 

RL


"The technical over complication of any type, or level of photography will most often take from the creative aspect of the project." --_Ned Redway, Photographer_


----------



## Diablo_331

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*

Funny this wasn't brought up but what type of transparent glue are you guys using? If the cutout will slip into a grove in the bezel then that would be ideal IMHO but an easily removable glue would be great for my other torches. Anyone have any suggestions?


----------



## Derek Dean

Of course ideally you would want to remove the bezel and place the filter inside the glass, but if you can't get the bezel off and can't get the filter to stick in the groove on the outside of the glass, then I've used a tiny bit of glue from a Scotch Restickable Adhesive Glue stick, just around the edges. It holds well, but is easily removable and cleans off leaving no residue if you change your mind.


----------



## goldenlight

Derek Dean said:


> Ok, I'll admit it, I've become a tint snob, and I used to agonize while waiting for a new light as to what tint the LED would be, but no more.
> 
> I've now found the joy of customizing the tint on all of my lights to *EXACTLY* the tint I want thanks to the Lee Filter Swatch Book, which can be found here:
> http://www.shop.leefiltersusa.com/Sw...2.qscstrfrnt02
> 
> This little book contains hundreds of different colored filters, from light magenta to dark magenta, or light blue to dark blue, or light yellow to dark yellow, etc. It even contains diffusing filters!
> 
> Each plastic filter is about 1 1/2" x 2 1/2". It can take a little time to find the right filter because there are so many colors to choose from, but it's honestly a lot of fun and not all that hard.
> 
> If your light has a greenish tint, then you'll probably want one of the pink (magenta) filters, while I found the XP-G R5 LED in my new NiteCore IFE2 (which seem to be more of a cyan, or green-blue tint) needed a light orange filter.
> 
> Each filter has a number. All you do is just hold each filter in front of the light and write down the numbers of the filters that seem to work well, and then after narrowing it down to 3 or 4, you finally pick the one that gives you the *perfect* tint.
> 
> What's the perfect tint? Well, not only did I use a white wall, but I would aim the light at a bookcase with lots of colorful books, and I went into the kitchen and aimed it at soup cans, etc. Then I went outside and looked at plants. I couldn't believe how much better colors looked when rendered with the correct filter in front of the light. *AMAZING*.
> 
> When you finally select the right filter, you'll want to cut out a small square of that filter about the size of the front glass cover. If you can get the bezel off of your light, you can simply remove it and place the glass on the plastic filter and trace around it with a pen and cut to size, then place the filter inside the glass front cover and reassemble (filter, glass, bezel)
> 
> On lights that I can't remove the bezel, I simply place the light, bezel down, on the filter and trace around it and cut it out, then taking my time, I'll begin trimming it until it fits down into the bezel area on top of the glass cover. Then I'll attach it using a reversible glue stick, and have found that it stays in place great. On my Jetbeam Bk-135A I didn't even have to use the glue stick, when I got it cut to size, I placed it down on the glass and it slid into place in a small groove. Neat!
> 
> The difference it makes in the quality of the light is dramatic, and usually with only a very small loss in light output, which is more than made up by having such a beautiful tint.
> 
> I can't recommend this enough. Now, every time I use one of my lights I really enjoy the quality of the light as much as the physical aspects of the light itself.
> 
> So, rather than complaining about green or blue tints, customize every light you own with this simple, inexpensive, and easily reversible solution.


 
I used the Lee filter pack, and the removeable glue on 2 of my lights that had a fairly green tint, and I can't BELIEVE what a *HUGE* difference it has made.

I greatly prefer the 'cool' tint light, and ESPECIALLY if there is a little bit of blue in the tint.

Now, two lights that i only occasionally used, have the *perfect* tint....for me, at least!

Thanks, Derek Dean! :bow: :bow: :bow:


----------



## the.Mtn.Man

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



davecroft said:


> My knowledge of the subject is very limited but I always understood the eye was very good at compensating for differences in lighting.


Well, kind of. The eye can compensate to a point, but if the light source isn't bringing out the color, your eye isn't going to see it. For instance, a cool white emitter shined on a bush will, in general, make all the leaves look varying shades of green while a warm high CRI emitter will show that the leaves are, in fact, varying shades of green, yellow, and brown. I've found that I prefer the latter for reasons that I can't readily explain.


----------



## candor

Thanks Derek Dean. I just placed an order for the swatch book. This should be interesting.


----------



## Derek Dean

goldenlight said:


> I used the Lee filter pack, and the removeable glue on 2 of my lights that had a fairly green tint, and I can't BELIEVE what a *HUGE* difference it has made.


Thanks for posting your experience, goldenlight. I was beginning to think I was just imagining how good my lights look now .

I wish I could take the credit for this, but using filters was being discussed on CPF long before I got here. In any case, I'm glad to hear that somebody else is having success with color correcting their lights using these filters.


----------



## the.Mtn.Man

I just ordered a book of filters to try and salvage the cool white HDS Rotary I recently ordered. I love the design of the light itself, but I'm a bit put off by the tint, especially when comparing it to my high CRI Ra Clicky. If I could get the Rotary a nice creamy neutral white then I think I would be very happy with it. At the very least, I don't want my kids looking cyanotic when I check on them at night.


----------



## the.Mtn.Man

Double post


----------



## Hondo

No kidding, I had read about these many times, but you finally got me to try them over in the LD01 thread. Not only did these rescue that light, but my shelf-bound Ti Quarks with the same green XP-G's are now some of the best tints I have. Starting to find filters to "neutralize" just plain cool tint lights now, and will probably order some more filters, although they go a long way because every light seems to need a bit different filter to get what you want. Since they are starting from a different point, so there is not one "best" filter color to get what you want from different lights. Like you said, if it's green, you want more red content in the filter. A pure cool white will come out too pink with a filter that works good on a greenish light.

I do notice what appears to be a significant loss of brightness, which I believe is a combination of actual loss of lumens as the filter removes some of the wavelengths, as well as the subjective factor that cool tints appear brighter to the eye, even at the same lumen level. I really don't think the loss is much different than what you would see by switching to a neutral emitter in a lower flux bin. You are either filtering it at the die or at the lens. After all, the light starts out as blue from the die.

Thanks again for pushing me over the edge on these, Derek!


----------



## Derek Dean

Hondo said:


> I do notice what appears to be a significant loss of brightness, which I believe is a combination of actual loss of lumens as the filter removes some of the wavelengths, as well as the subjective factor that cool tints appear brighter to the eye, even at the same lumen level. I really don't think the loss is much different than what you would see by switching to a neutral emitter in a lower flux bin. You are either filtering it at the die or at the lens. After all, the light starts out as blue from the die.


Yep, I imagine that if you were to look at a spectral analysis graph of each LED, you'd see a spike in the region of the dominant color, and it's that spike, which is excess light in that wavelength, which we are trying to diminish, so yes, we are certainly removing light with this method, trying to make that graph look more flat. 

Of course how much the light level is reduced is dependent on how dark the filter is, and since the Lee Filter Swatch pack has quite a few different levels of filter, from lighter to darker, for each color, we can control how much correction we use and find the best balance between correction and light loss for each situation. 

It would be helpful if you could post what number filters you are using for which lights and LEDs, just to see if we can find a general pattern, and help other folks have a better idea of where to start. 

I really am happy to hear of these success stories. Thanks!


----------



## brembo

I have a Jetbean BC40 that is just a tickle on the blue side of things. Not enough to worry about UNTIL a neutral emitter gets fired up next to it. Then it looks sickly blue. I tried lots of varying colors from the filter pack and the very second I placed "159 NO COLOUR STRAW" in front of the lens I knew it was right. The light lost all hints of blue and picked up the tiniest bit of yellow, only noticeable on a white wall.

I also decided to see if I could make the flood on my ZL SC30 better. "251 QUARTER WHITE DIFFUSION" totally kills the hotspot and creates a huge ball of even light. Perfect for a headlamp and close up work. The light output across the whole head becomes very even and light loss is kept low. This might end up being a permanent mod for the ZL.

This little filter pack is great fun to mess with. Considering popping the plastic rivet and placing the filters in an old CD case to make selection easier. The current book style is sort of hard to handle.


----------



## Hondo

Derek Dean said:


> It would be helpful if you could post what number filters you are using for which lights and LEDs, just to see if we can find a general pattern, and help other folks have a better idea of where to start.



Good idea! I first tried 506 Marlene in my greenish LD01, but decided I was still seeing too much green, and switched it to 775 Soft Amber. This is very deep in the neutral range, but I like it. I used 774 Soft Amber for my Ti Quark with the same type of emitter, and this is enough to eliminate the green, but with a bit higher color temp., but still very neutral. 774 has less red, so the LD01 must have a bit greener emitter. Putting 774 in front of a pure cool white makes it look fairly pink compared to other lights, but not really bad on it's own. I am thinking of using 009 Pale Gold in some of those. Some cool whites that never appeared green to me do actually look better with the 774, though. To be honest, if I don't turn on a bunch of lights at once, many of the filters in this range make any stark, cold tint look much nicer. Some are more to the yellow side, others to the pink, but I like them all better than cold pure white.

I'm with brembo on getting these out of the flip book format to make it easier to experiment.

Edit: Hey, I just noticed you referring to page numbers, like 90 for the one you used on your LD01. I have numbers on the info cards, but they are totally random, not in any kind of order at all. Did there used to also be sequential page numbers in the book? And what color is on your page 90?


----------



## Derek Dean

Hondo, yes... I've had this filter book for 4-5 years, and it has all the filters numbered sequentially, but it does also list a random number and name:

NiteCore IFE2 (XP-G R5) 162 ******* Amber
Jetbeam BK-135a (XP-G R4) 154 Pale Rose
Fenix LD01 SS (XP-G R5) 154 Pale Rose


----------



## the.Mtn.Man

I got my filter pack today and settled on 506 (marlene) for my HDS Rotary. It takes the blue edge off the light without making it overly warm. It's not quite high CRI, but it's definitely an improvement.

I had considered removing the bezel and mounting the filter under the lens for a more permanent installation, but I was worried that the heat from the LED would cause the filter to warp or wrinkle. What has been people's experience with this?


----------



## Derek Dean

Mtn.Man, I've got the amber filter mounted *inside* the front cover of my NiteCore IFE2 (on the left in the photo above), and it's shown no signs of warpage to date, and that light has 350 emitter lumens on max. output (270 OTF). 

I did read a post earlier in this thread where somebody had an issue mounting it inside a light with a high power XML (or was it 3 XMLs?). 

And just for the record, both my LD01 SS and Fenix Bk-135a have the filters mounted on the *outside*, and even though both lights are with me constantly the filters still look pristine, maybe because the diameter of the opening is so small. 

In any case, I think you'd be ok mounting the filter *inside* your HDS. It's easy, just cut it the same size as the glass cover (measure *after* you've removed the glass from the light). You won't need any adhesive, just put the filter down on top of the reflector, then the glass, then the bezel. 

Of course, the issue that might arise from this procedure is getting some dust inside on the reflector, filter, or glass. I turned off any fans and used a sponge to damp down the area I was working in, then proceeded carefully, and had no trouble, but it's something to think about.


----------



## Got Lumens?

Derek Dean said:


> Hondo, yes... I've had this filter book for 4-5 years, and it has all the filters numbered sequentially, but it does also list a random number and name:


Derek,
Thanks for sharing Swatch Book!
The New Swatch Book, Designer Edition, does not have page numbers. 
Does anyone know of a different edition currently for sale that has page numbers?

The Swatch Book Designer Edition is arranged Per wavelength. Starting in the Ultra-Violets and progressing to the Infra-Reds, The diffusing films/fabrics, and then the Diffusion Foils and Reflective Films/Foils.

I will play around with it some and report back my results. 

I guess for those that have a newer swatch book without page numbering, mention the approximate Wavelength section the filter is from. 
Example: #100 Spring Yellow ~600nm or #332 Special Rose Pink ~700nm. This way those with and those without page numbers can find a particular filter much easier and faster.
GL


----------



## bla2000

Perhaps you should order the Numeric Edition Swatch Book.


----------



## Got Lumens?

bla2000 said:


> Perhaps you should order the Numeric Edition Swatch Book.


Thanks Bla :thumbsup:
GL


----------



## Flashlike

bla2000 said:


> Perhaps you should order the Numeric Edition Swatch Book.



*Oh, crumb!* I already ordered a couple of the non-numbered swatch books not realizing that these were available. Oh, well. 

By the way, I was considering using one of these filters to improve the tint on my new HDS Systems Rotary (yes...I'm picky about tint!) but in the maintenance section of the User's Guide it says that the anti-reflective coating on the glass lens can be abraded by rubbing or cleaning and even warns against using paper tissues or towels to clean or dry the lens as the fibers are abrasive. 

So it probably wouldn't be a good idea to adhere one of these tint filters to it. Any thoughts on this?


----------



## Diablo_331

As long as you cut the filter to just the right size then it will not be able to move around. Thus it cannot scratch your lens. Unless there is some other way that it could be damaged by using a filter then I think you will be fine.


----------



## Derek Dean

Flashlike, if you can remove the bezel of your HDS, you can place the filter *inside* the front glass cover (between the glass and the reflector) and no adhesive will be needed. Just cut the filter the same size as the glass cover, then reassemble, and the filter is held in place against the reflector by the front glass cover and bezel. 

If you do need to mount it to the outside, *careful and patient trimming* of the filter might allow you to friction fit the filter down on top of the glass, with it being held in place by the edges pressing just slightly against the interior sides of the bezel, or catching in the groove between the outside of the glass and the bezel. 

That's how I fit my filters down on the outside of the glass covers of both my Fenix LD01 and Jetbeam BK-135a, no adhesive used, and no problems with the filters staying in place over the last month with extensive daily use.

To be clear, the difference between these two methods is the size that you cut the filter. When mounting INSIDE the glass, the filter needs to be the same size as the glass, that way it's held in place by pressure against the top edge of the reflector, and when mounting OUTSIDE the glass, the filter needs to be smaller, just a teesie-weensie bit larger than the interior of the front bezel, that way it's held in place either by friction against the interior side of the bezel, or it slips into the groove where the outside of the glass meets the bezel.

*Edit: *By the way, with either method I found that after trimming the filters they ended up being a bit yucky with fingerprints, so I was careful to clean them before installation. I wear glasses, so I simply used one of my eyeglass cleaning tissues which are designed to not scratch the coating on my glasses. Worked like a charm.


----------



## brembo

I finally got around to sticking a diffuser type film in my Nitecore EX10. Here are a couple of pics. Same settings on the camera, F2.8, 1/50 exposure, ISO 100, don't think the white balance shifted any. Anyway.....

This is Nitecore EX10 sans diffuser:






.....and with the diffuser film





Ignore the Coke-a-Cola can and Newcastle bottle.
Notice how the hotspot gets wiped out and makes a much larger portion of the "beam" a uniform brightness. Some light loss for sure, but for my purposes a more usable pattern. Low is now very low and that's a good thing. I traced the lens and used a brand new razor to cut the film, popped off the bezel and stuck it under the lens. Might have compromised the water resistance a smidge, not a worry tho as the EX is my indoors light.


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland

I've been wanting to warm up the tint on my Dereelight 3-mode XP-G R5 drop-in. My chief criterion was, "How accurately does the filter render flesh tones?"

From a dozen candidate filters, eight made my skin look too sallow. That left four finalists: 

103 Straw (Y=81.6%)
444 Eight C.T. Straw Daylight to Tungsten 5700K, yellow bias(Y=83.1%)
763 Wheat (Y=84.3%)
774 Soft Amber Key 1 (Y=71%)

I've installed 444; I'll share my impressions after I've had some experience at all three output levels.

774 was a close second; skin tones were probably at least as accurate, but I felt that it made colors just a bit too saturated. And, to be honest, the meager 71 percent transmission rate seemed too high a price.


----------



## Got Lumens?

brembo said:


> I finally got around to sticking a diffuser type film in my Nitecore EX10. Here are a couple of pics. Same settings on the camera, F2.8, 1/50 exposure, ISO 100, don't think the white balance shifted any. Anyway.....
> 
> Ignore the Coke-a-Cola can and Newcastle bottle.
> Notice how the hotspot gets wiped out and makes a much larger portion of the "beam" a uniform brightness. Some light loss for sure, but for my purposes a more usable pattern. Low is now very low and that's a good thing. I traced the lens and used a brand new razor to cut the film, popped off the bezel and stuck it under the lens. Might have compromised the water resistance a smidge, not a worry tho as the EX is my indoors light.



Hi Brembo,
I am not ignoring the coke can . 
That is a very excellent representation of type of beam. Without out the filter you see more of the back side of the can, more reflecting off wall, and a small pinpoint refection of the light on the front of the can. With the filter, the diffusion film clearly illuminates the front of the can, providing an even spread of the beam(wider illumination), and less intense refection off the wall not illuminating the back of the can, and shows a larger reflection of the front of the light.
Excellent photos:thumbsup:
GL


----------



## gcbryan

Nice thread! I ordered the Roscolux sampler and just received it 2 days ago. Now that I've found this thread I just ordered a couple of Lee swatches as well.

I don't have any LEDs with a green or really bad tint. I got the filters just to experiment with however so far I've found the Pale ******* Amber (transmission 88%) makes a P60 XP-G light that I have just a little better.

I used a can of nuts with colors similar to a soup can (red, blue with a little white) as a test subject. It looked OK to me without the filter but with the filter it was noticeable better.

I don't have all that many lights and some are throwers that I'm not willing to reduce the light transmission anyway. 

Other lights that I can't take apart are lower down on the list as well. That leaves a few to play with though.

I cut the plastic connector through the swatch and replaced it with a loop of string which makes it much easier to use. I make sure I leave a bit of the filter in the pack even when I use the rest just for reference.

I've used a lot of diffusion materials on my lights in the past but this is the first time I've done much with filters outside of photography.

This will be a fun thread to continue reading as more people experiment with their lights!


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## brembo

Who knows how to open the head of a Zebra SC30?


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland

I'm delighted with my Dereelight's new beam color. Heeding Derek Dean's advice, I chose a filter (444 Wheat) that didn't overcorrect. The strategy worked. Colors simply look on the money, unbiased. Having bought into the notion that a higher color temperature means a lower color rendering index, I'm finding it startling that I can have a high CRI without a yellow tint. A 20 percent light loss is well worth the benefit.

With a book full of tinted film, I can now pick from 50 times as many lights and avoid paying a premium for hard-to-find warm emitters. Truth be told, had I tried the Lee filters two weeks sooner, I wouldn't have paid an extra $30 to buy a Peak Eiger in high-CRI.


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland

It appears that 444 Wheat doesn't improve color accuracy as much as I thought. When I compared to 444-Dereelight to a Peak Eiger with a Nichia high-CRI (92) emitter, it was no contest. Hues that blended together with the Dereelight were clearly *differentiated* (corrected from "different") when illuminated by the Nichia. They also looked more saturated, probably because the Nichis is warmer.

I guess I'll try a more aggressive filter: 774 Soft Amber Key 1 (Y=71%).


----------



## Diablo_331

I just recently purchased a Dereelight Javelin from the MP. (Awesome torch btw) The tint is rather blue to my eyes. Perhaps it's time to freshen the color up and bring it more towards neutral. I have resisted up until this point simply because I wanted to see if it would grow on me but it hasn't. I've been spotting rabbits with it for the past week or so and it's just not right. I'll keep you guys and gals updated as I try different filters.


----------



## Blue72

This is a great thread

I just ordered one of the sample books and bought about 20 bolt covers from home depot to make various tint, diffusers, and color lens holders for my flashlights


----------



## Derek Dean

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> It appears that 444 Wheat doesn't improve color accuracy as much as I thought. When I compared to 444-Dereelight to a Peak Eiger with a Nichia high-CRI (92) emitter, it was no contest. Hues that blended together with the Dereelight were clearly different when illuminated by the Nichia. They also looked more saturated, probably because the Nichis is warmer.
> 
> I guess I'll try a more aggressive filter: 774 Soft Amber Key 1 (Y=71%).


From my reading over in the Peak forum it appears that the Nichia high CRI LED takes a 50% hit in output compared to the cool white XP-G that Curt normally uses in the Eiger, so if the Soft Amber Key filter will get you in the same ball park, then it seems to me that a 71% transmission rate is still pretty good compared to the Nichia.

I'll be interested to hear your progress, Paul. Thanks to everybody for your updates.


----------



## gcbryan

I'm having fun experimenting with the filter as well but regarding increasing the CRI with filters that isn't going to happen. You can change the tint but you can't add anything with filters (only subtract). You can't make a light high CRI with filters (as far as I know).

You can remove some excess blue tint and the colors will render better (which is more or less what we are all doing I would imagine).


----------



## Derek Dean

Well, that's certainly one of the questions we've been wrestling with in this thread. 

Of course filters are subtractive in nature (hence the drop in light output when using them), but if an LED has all of the required wavelengths of visible light, and you use a filter to help reduce or eliminate an excess in a particular wavelength, does that effectively increase the CRI?

It's a good question.

My own personal experience with using these filters suggests that it does indeed help with color rendition, but of course that's purely subjective on my part.


----------



## gcbryan

I'm pretty sure the answer is that yes you do improve the color rendition by removing excessive blue but you don't make the CRI of the output any higher than it was in the beginning.

So, yes it's a useful thing to do but I don't think it raises the CRI. Just like an emitter offered in warm, neutral or cool is referring to the tint. Another offering is whether it has a high CRI or not and that will usually be at least a neutral tint as well (in addition).

I don't think an emitter that isn't high CRI does have all of the wavelengths of light.

I'm no expert here however.


----------



## Derek Dean

My Googlized reading on the matter of CRI makes me think that if we want to discuss a light's color rendering ability, we not only have to know it's CRI, but just as importantly, it's color temperature. 

If I'm understanding CRI correctly, while the Nichia LED may have a higher CRI, it won't necessarily allow us to distinguish colors in the blue spectrum correctly because of it's warm color temperature, and that it might be possible for a properly filtered LED with a lower CRI (but higher color temp) to render certain colors more faithfully.

Maybe Paul can comment on this after he's played with the filters more and compared them to his Nichia fitted light.


----------



## Blue72

Does any one have a filter recommendation for those 5mm leds with a blue hotspot. Would love to put a decent filter on all the headlamps I have


----------



## Cataract

I got my filter pack two weeks ago, but haven't had time to do anything with it yet (big review in the works). Anyways, here's my 2 cents:

You might get better color rendition by substracting the high color peak, but I doubt that really raises the CRI, at least not by much. It definitely will not add to the spectrum so, even though the light might look warmer or more neutral, you will not perceive colors out of the LED's spectrum much better; only those colors that interfere with the part of the spectrum you have filtered out. 

In the end, if the user is more satisfied with the results then it's worth it and I will definitely try it out the second I have some time.


----------



## gcbryan

dd61999 said:


> Does any one have a filter recommendation for those 5mm leds with a blue hotspot. Would love to put a decent filter on all the headlamps I have



Try one of the light amber colors. I used one with a 88% transmission rate (******* Amber or something like that).

A good test is just to shine your light on a soup can with red, white and blue in the label. Then use the amber filter and see if white still looks white (or better than before) and if the colors look truer. When you now take away the filter you will instantly see the improvement.


----------



## Blue72

After several hours of playing around with these things. I find the 763 Wheat is a good compromise and works well with many of my lights from a neutral cree all the way to a 5mm nichia with a bluish hotspot. Of course with more tinkering I could find a better fitted filter for each light. But I find this filter offers a good universal compromise of better color rendition (not the best just better) without sacrificing to much brightness.

Of course this is just my opinion but might be helpful for someone just looking for a filter and not play around with the whole sample book. I know many like different shades of amber, but it just put to much red/brown light out there for my liking.


----------



## gcbryan

I noticed that in the Lee Filter pack (as opposed to the Rosco pack) that they have more diffusion filters. A couple of them are particularly interesting...1/16 and 1/8 diffusion. The 1/16 is so mild that you can put it on an aspheric light and if softens it but still keeps the emitter image (not that you would want to do this with an aspheric). With the 1/8 you no longer see the emitter image but you do have a softened spot on the wall.

It's just interesting to see all the permutations that one could get with diffusion.

I'll also mention for those just now ordering the Lee Filters. It's not a bad idea to get both the Designers Edition and the Numbered Edition. The numbered version may be easier if you are communicating with someone about a specific filter as was mentioned earlier in this thread. However, the designers version is much more intuitive to work with in finding the appropriate color since the colors are arranged more like you would expect to find them in a color spectrum.


----------



## vincevoxbox

Does anyone know of a UK supplier of these filters ?

or could someone tell me what would be the ideal colour filter to make my Mag and tiablo A9 with the Cree led installed look more like the colour of a halogen bulb ?


----------



## Cataract

vincevoxbox said:


> Does anyone know of a UK supplier of these filters ?
> 
> or could someone tell me what would be the ideal colour filter to make my Mag and tiablo A9 with the Cree led installed look more like the colour of a halogen bulb ?



I couldn't find a distributor in Canada, so I just headed to the biggest camera store in town and they had plenty.


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## selas

vincevoxbox said:


> Does anyone know of a UK supplier of these filters ?



I got mine from hi-lights.tv


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## gcbryan

vincevoxbox said:


> Does anyone know of a UK supplier of these filters ?
> 
> or could someone tell me what would be the ideal colour filter to make my Mag and tiablo A9 with the Cree led installed look more like the colour of a halogen bulb ?



Lee Filters is a UK company. You probably need something in the amber range but that's the beauty of the sample filters...you can try them all!


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## gcbryan

Since everyone on here has multiple flashlights and presumably a filter pack as well here is an interesting light experiment.

Tape a red, blue, and green filter over 3 lights (one each of course). Prop up a white piece of cardboard or paper on your desktop as a background and stand an Eneloop (or anything really) about an inch in front of that white background. Turn on all of the flashlights and aim them all at the Eneloop. So you will have a spot of red, green, and blue all coming together.

Where they all come together behind the Eneloop will be white. Any area where they don't overlap at all will either be blue, green, or red. There will also be 3 shadows and they will be cyan, yellow, and magenta. If you position the lights just right you will also have some areas with just green, some with just blue and some with just red (just is behind the Eneloop where only one color gets through).

You will have 6 colors in all from just 3 light. Try moving your hand just in front of the white paper as well for a more dynamic effect...you will get the same shadow effect of yellow, cyan, and magenta. You might even be surprised to see that green and red makes yellow!

For anyone reading this who doesn't have your filter pack yet just use 3 clear drinking glasses and some food dye ($3 from any grocery store). Put some blue dye in one glass, red in another glass, and green in the 3rd glass and position each flashlight behind each glass for the same effect.

It's fun...what can I say!


----------



## Derek Dean

That would be fun way to teach kids about light, and would be an excellent compliment to using a prism to split light into it's basic components. Nice idea.


----------



## Got Lumens?

gcbryan said:


> Since everyone on here has multiple flashlights and presumably a filter pack as well here is an interesting light experiment.
> 
> Tape a red, blue, and green filter over 3 lights (one each of course). Prop up a white piece of cardboard or paper on your desktop as a background and stand an Eneloop (or anything really) about an inch in front of that white background. Turn on all of the flashlights and aim them all at the Eneloop. So you will have a spot of red, green, and blue all coming together.
> 
> Where they all come together behind the Eneloop will be white. Any area where they don't overlap at all will either be blue, green, or red. There will also be 3 shadows and they will be cyan, yellow, and magenta. If you position the lights just right you will also have some areas with just green, some with just blue and some with just red (just is behind the Eneloop where only one color gets through).
> 
> You will have 6 colors in all from just 3 light. Try moving your hand just in front of the white paper as well for a more dynamic effect...you will get the same shadow effect of yellow, cyan, and magenta. You might even be surprised to see that green and red makes yellow!
> 
> For anyone reading this who doesn't have your filter pack yet just use 3 clear drinking glasses and some food dye ($3 from any grocery store). Put some blue dye in one glass, red in another glass, and green in the 3rd glass and position each flashlight behind each glass for the same effect.
> 
> It's fun...what can I say!



Gcbryan,
Do you have reference names and numbers for the Red, Green, and Blue filters from the sampler pack?
I would like to try this using three 4 sevens Preon lights. I have R5 and S2 to compare.

I have another interesting experiment you and I can try. Find the best position for a camera and use tripod. Then take Photo using all three lights on together. then take three seperate photos of each light on by itself, and see if you use overlay photo technology if it comes close to all three picture.
Thanks
GL




Derek Dean said:


> That would be fun way to teach kids about light, and would be an excellent compliment to using a prism to split light into it's basic components. Nice idea.


+1 :thumbsup:


----------



## gcbryan

Got Lumens? said:


> Gcbryan,
> Do you have reference names and numbers for the Red, Green, and Blue filters from the sampler pack?
> I would like to try this using three 4 sevens Preon lights. I have R5 and S2 to compare.
> 
> I have another interesting experiment you and I can try. Find the best position for a camera and use tripod. Then take Photo using all three lights on together. then take three seperate photos of each light on by itself, and see if you use overlay photo technology if it comes close to all three picture.
> Thanks
> GL
> 
> 
> 
> +1 :thumbsup:



It's not all that crucial which red, green and blue is used...go for the darkest but I used #3202 Full Blue,#42 Deep Salmon, and #91 Primary Green. I just used these for the deepest color that I could find.

The photo experiment is interesting but I don't have the software for that. If you do it let me know how it works out.


----------



## Got Lumens?

UK: http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/contact/
Canada: http://tyi.ca/contact/

Response I got from Lee Filters for purchasing outside US.
GL


----------



## ^Gurthang

I will mention that there is another major filter / gel supplier that will send a swatch sample book. Its Rosco.

http://www.rosco.com/us/products/lighting.cfm

The swatchbook request link is at the bottom of the page. BTW the book is free but Rosco charges $7.50 for shipping....


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## vincevoxbox

ive got a book ordered..on its way now.. thanks everyone.


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## atlashomeric

Hey guys, new to the forum but have been looking around them for awhile. I'm glad that there exist such insight in lighting on the web. I thought I'd chime in on this thread and just say that most people overlook color temp when looking into either flashlights, bike lights, etc. I think that lighting color can really make the difference in many situations. CRI plays a role in distinguishing the difference between rocks, ruts, or shadows. I am an avid outdoorsman and have found that a flashlight or headlamp with the correct CCT can make the experience that much more enjoyable. I usually try to look into 5500-6000K range. I found some good info featured in this blog. 

Link removed. Links in first posts are generally not approved, especially when link is to a dealer blog with a link to their store

Bill


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## Derek Dean

Howdy atlashomeric, and welcome to CPF,
Yes, the general public doesn't pay much attention (yet) to the color temp of their flashlights, but I think you will find that around CPF most folks take the tint of their LED lights VERY seriously. 

Some folks will search out the best tint bins to find an LED with the color they like, while some of us simply add a filter. Some mainstream manufacturers are even beginning to offer lights with "high CRI" LEDs, so things are looking up. 

In any case, I hope you enjoy your time here on CPF.


----------



## atlashomeric

Derek Dean said:


> Howdy atlashomeric, and welcome to CPF,
> Yes, the general public doesn't pay much attention (yet) to the color temp of their flashlights, but I think you will find that around CPF most folks take the tint of their LED lights VERY seriously.
> 
> Some folks will search out the best tint bins to find an LED with the color they like, while some of us simply add a filter. Some mainstream manufacturers are even beginning to offer lights with "high CRI" LEDs, so things are looking up.
> 
> In any case, I hope you enjoy your time here on CPF.



Thanks Derek, 
Yeah I'm just curious where you get your filters, and in that case where you go to first to search LEDs. DigiKey, Mouser? 

Thanks,


----------



## Derek Dean

Here you go:
In the US you have at least 2 choices for filters:
http://www.rosco.com/us/products/lighting.cfm (scroll to the bottom left of page)

or

http://www.shop.leefiltersusa.com/Designer-Swatch-Book-SWB.htm

In Europe:
http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/contact/

To search for LEDs, you will need to do some research. You will need to go to the Cree website and educate yourself on how they classify their LEDs by tint bin. 
http://www.cree.com/

Then when you are ready to order, go here:
http://www.cutter.com.au/

There is probably a place on the CPF forum where they discuss specific LEDs and such, maybe in the electronics area, so get a cup of coffee and look around.

Have fun.


----------



## gcbryan

There is a LED sub-forum here.


----------



## Harry999

Derek Dean said:


> Edit: By the way, if you live in Europe or the UK, you might have better luck requesting the Swatch Book from the UK Office:
> http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/contact/



Thank you Derek Dean. I have requested one. This is a great thing for you to share.

Regards

Harry


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## Derek Dean

You're most welcome, Harry. Have fun, and let us know how they work out for you .


----------



## LedTed

Hello all,

I took my wife to the ballet this weekend. In the production color was used symbolically. A set of dancers came out with LED FLs which had blue gels on them. The experience made me think of this thread.


----------



## Derek Dean

So, I got a new light *(Yippeee)*, the ZebraLight SC600. I had been waiting for the neutral LED version, but it's been so long that I finally decided to go ahead and get one with the *cool white XM-L T6* and see what I could do with the filters when it arrived..... and..... I decided this might be a good chance to photograph the results.

Well, it arrived, and while the light itself was totally cool and everything I hoped it would be, the tint of the XM-L LED was an awful puke green/yellow... arrrrgghhhh. 

* Lee Filter Swatch Book to the rescue!* It took a while to figure it out. I started with a half-minus green, but that just wasn't enough, so tonight I finally went with a #247 Lee Minus Green filter (CC30M equivalent), which is a VERY strong magenta filter, and that finally got the tint back in the liveable range. 

Here are the photos. These were all shot with the white balance on my Canon G10 set to DAYLIGHT. The shutter speed and aperture were the same for each set. The top photo of each pair is the unfiltered light and the bottom photo has the filter added. Judge for yourself.

Do understand that I was hand holding both the camera and the light, and that I had to take out or add the filter between shots, so the angle of the lighting has changed a bit from shot to shot, but I think they still get across the point.


UNFILTERED 1/25 second at F3.5, WB set to daylight.






FILTERED 1/25 second F3.5, WB set to DAYLIGHT.





UNFILTERED 1/60 second F4.5, WB set to DAYLIGHT.





FILTERED 1/60 second F4.5, WB set to DAYLIGHT.





I'm a much happier camper now with my newly filtered light.


----------



## DM51

Excellent result! The filtered light doesn't seem to have lost much brightness at all, and the colors are FAR better and more natural, with all that zombie-green color cast taken out.


----------



## varuscelli

Nicely done, Derek. :thumbsup:


----------



## Cataract

Amazing result! This is the best discovery so far. Now, if I can just kick myself to start using my filters...

BTW, the book I got is the Designer's Edition WITH Numeric Numbering... best of both worlds!


----------



## B0wz3r

Wow! Derek, that's amazing! The improvement is simply phenomenal...

Just as an aside, for fun a while ago I took the red filter from a 4Sevens prism kit and tried it on the front of my Jet-3 Pro ST with a neutral/warm XRE Q3/5B emitter in it... the result was purple! Since purple can only be created perceptually by mixing red and blue, there must be a strong blue spike in the XRE's power spectrum that isn't filtered by the 4Sevens red filter. I don't have any specialized equipment to test this out though.


----------



## GunnarGG

Very impressive!

Since I saw this thread I have been looking for those filters in Sweden/Europe.
I did find some place that sold them but it was a lot of money for shipping.
Anybody that know a place to get them without high shipping cost?


----------



## Derek Dean

Yes, I'm happy with the results, however, I will mention one caveat. While the LEDs in all of my XP-G based lights had a single tint that was easily filtered and corrected, this particular XM-L T6 LED has the unusual characteristic of having an angry green/yellow center spot/corona, but with a slightly cool spill, so of course my single magenta filter, which has wonderfully corrected the central portion of the beam, has left the spill with a slightly purplish tint. 

That was why I initially went with the 1/2 strength magenta filter. It helped with the center spot but didn't affect the spill to much, a nice balance...... but after using the light for a few nights I found that I really needed the central portion of the beam to be more neutral, so my first thought, and what I actually tried, was to create a two toned filter by combining a slightly warm outer filter (for the spill), then cutting a hole in it's center and putting a small magenta filter in there for the spot, ha. 

Well, that just didn't seem to work, so I went ahead and tried the full magenta filter by itself, and was much more pleased with the results. The central portion of the beam is what I use the most, and like most things in the flashlight world it seems that we must make choices and find the best balance for our own situations, and at this point I think this is a result I can live with, because in real world use I've found I don't really notice the slight tint of the spill, while the beautifully neutral spot tint is quite useful and pleasant.


----------



## MikeAusC

B0wz3r said:


> . . . there must be a strong blue spike in the XRE's power spectrum that isn't filtered by the 4Sevens red filter. I don't have any specialized equipment to test this out though.



Do you have a pre-recorded Audio CD ? The non-label side makes a good diffraction grating.

I find if I look at the torch image reflected off one side, the other side has the rainbow spectrum on it - with the blue region being very bright.

A yellow LED has edges either side of the Yellow showing it spreads into the Green and Amber.


----------



## B0wz3r

MikeAusC said:


> Do you have a pre-recorded Audio CD ? The non-label side makes a good diffraction grating.
> 
> I find if I look at the torch image reflected off one side, the other side has the rainbow spectrum on it - with the blue region being very bright.
> 
> A yellow LED has edges either side of the Yellow showing it spreads into the Green and Amber.



Neat trick... I'll have to try it when I can. I rarely use even optical media anymore though, so I'll have to dig one of some software out of storage.

@Derek; I've encountered what your talking about twice now. My PA40 neutral I got a couple of weeks ago does exactly what you're talking about, gangrenous **** colored corona and a slightly blue/purple spill. The new neutral XPG Preon 2 I got also has exactly the same characteristics. Cree must have changed something with their phosphor coating process for their neutral emitters that is not working out well.

I don't mind it in my PA40 because that's become my dedicated backpacking / hiking / camping light, so it's not nearly so noticeable outdoors. The Preon 2, however, I meant to be an EDC light, and I just can't stomach that awful tint combination for EDC uses.


----------



## gcbryan

B0wz3r said:


> Wow! Derek, that's amazing! The improvement is simply phenomenal...
> 
> Just as an aside, for fun a while ago I took the red filter from a 4Sevens prism kit and tried it on the front of my Jet-3 Pro ST with a neutral/warm XRE Q3/5B emitter in it... the result was purple! Since purple can only be created perceptually by mixing red and blue, there must be a strong blue spike in the XRE's power spectrum that isn't filtered by the 4Sevens red filter. I don't have any specialized equipment to test this out though.



That's the deal with most of these filters. In theory a red filter would only allow red to pass and it reality (and the filter charts show this as well) it allows a large percentage of red to pass and a smaller percentage of the other colors to pass. I have some transparent diffraction material and even my UV light allows other colors to pass. My laser pointers are the only ones that are only a single wavelength. My red LED's are mostly red but they do have a bit of other colors passing as well.


----------



## gcbryan

Derek Dean said:


> Yes, I'm happy with the results, however, I will mention one caveat. While the LEDs in all of my XP-G based lights had a single tint that was easily filtered and corrected, this particular XM-L T6 LED has the unusual characteristic of having an angry green/yellow center spot/corona, but with a slightly cool spill, so of course my single magenta filter, which has wonderfully corrected the central portion of the beam, has left the spill with a slightly purplish tint.
> 
> That was why I initially went with the 1/2 strength magenta filter. It helped with the center spot but didn't affect the spill to much, a nice balance...... but after using the light for a few nights I found that I really needed the central portion of the beam to be more neutral, so my first thought, and what I actually tried, was to create a two toned filter by combining a slightly warm outer filter (for the spill), then cutting a hole in it's center and putting a small magenta filter in there for the spot, ha.
> 
> Well, that just didn't seem to work, so I went ahead and tried the full magenta filter by itself, and was much more pleased with the results. The central portion of the beam is what I use the most, and like most things in the flashlight world it seems that we must make choices and find the best balance for our own situations, and at this point I think this is a result I can live with, because in real world use I've found I don't really notice the slight tint of the spill, while the beautifully neutral spot tint is quite useful and pleasant.



That doesn't work because the spot isn't coming from the center of your reflector. It's coming from the whole reflector. That's what the whole reflector is doing...collimating light. The center is actually where the spill is coming from...light that is going straight out from the emitter and not hitting (or being collimated) the reflector.


----------



## Derek Dean

gcbryan, I had a feeling it was something like that, but I thought I'd give it shot anyway. The first thing I tried was just putting my finger over the center, and there was still light there on the wall, so knew it was a long shot, but I thought it would be an interesting experiment anyway, and it was. 

I wish I knew why these new LEDs have this two tone tint thing going on, it's certainly odd.


----------



## gcbryan

Derek Dean said:


> gcbryan, I had a feeling it was something like that, but I thought I'd give it shot anyway. The first thing I tried was just putting my finger over the center, and there was still light there on the wall, so knew it was a long shot, but I thought it would be an interesting experiment anyway, and it was.
> 
> I wish I knew why these new LEDs have this two tone tint thing going on, it's certainly odd.



That is odd. Maybe someone else will have more info for you. Could you use the lighter magneta and then try another filter to complete the tint? For instance there are filters that say they correct from 5400 K to 4500 K or something like that. Use the lightest magenta you can to reduce the green and then use one of those filters. Maybe the combined effect will result in the tint you want without the purple spill (which you are causing after all).

Nice pictures by the way. The after shot is certainly better than the before shot!

I'm glad we have this thread. There are so few interesting topics on here these days


----------



## gcbryan

ITPython said:


> Amazing thread Derek! Love the beamshot comparison on post #103, I wish more people would post pics like that so I could have some eye-candy anticipation while I wait for my filters. :devil:
> 
> I ordered a designer edition (practically free at 1 cent) and a numerical version just for kicks. I have become quite the tint snob as of late, and these filters will be very fun to play around with on my lights! Do you know where they ship from, or how long it might take for me to receive them? (I live in Cali).
> 
> My NW Quark also has the bluish spill and the yellow hotspot (greenish yellow on the lower modes), so I hope I can find something that will give me a good tinted hotspot and a desirable spill, cause both are important to me. One thing I am wondering is how the filters will hold up with the mode tint-shift that my 4Sevens lights have. My NW quark is almost perfect in max mode, then as I cycle through the lower the modes I get the unnatural greenish pee colored tints. I fear that if I tweak the tint on the lower modes it may severely impact the tint on the max/high mode.
> 
> Either way will be a fun experiment, and I cannot wait to get my filters.  So what exactly are these filters? Just hard plastic or are they gel-like? How thick are they and can they be cut easily? Surprisingly nobody has posted any pics of the actual filters in this thread.



The Lee Filters only took about a week to arrive. The Rosco filters took several weeks. The filter material is more like cellophane and is easy to cut.


----------



## gcbryan

ITPython said:


> Thanks Bryan! You know I was thinking, it would be really neat if somebody would sell flashlight filters like this but instead the material would be that thin plastic/rubbery material that is often used in cell phone screen protectors and those non-permanent stickers for glass windows (it would stick to the outer lens securely without any need for glue). How awesome would that be! Plus they would be pretty easy to remove and replace. :thumbsup:


 I agree, or have slotted filter holders incorporated into bezels or simply threaded bezels that serve as filter holders. They could just thread the outside of the face for screw-in filters like they have on cameras.


----------



## psychbeat

If u cut the filter to the same size as the lens the bezel should hold teh filter over tha lens on most p60 hosts. Just screw it down on top o the filter.


----------



## Swedpat

VERY nice result *Derek Dean*! 
So it's actually possible to remove greenish tint with a filter! I want that to my Fenix TK50. It's a GREAT thrower but the tint is the most greenish I have ever experienced, so I hardly never use it anymore...


----------



## Diablo_331

The filters will make it a whole new light. They did wonders for my Eiger and Oveready Triple Neutral (which,btw, isn't close to my definition of neutral)...Well it is now..


----------



## Blue72

Diablo_331 said:


> The filters will make it a whole new light. They did wonders for my Eiger and Oveready Triple Neutral (which,btw, isn't close to my definition of neutral)...Well it is now..



how did you fit the filter on the eiger?


----------



## Blue72

Anyone dare compare their best fitted filter flashlight to a high CRI flashlight. I think it would make a great challange!


----------



## Got Lumens?

dd61999 said:


> Anyone dare compare their best fitted filter flashlight to a high CRI flashlight. I think it would make a great challange!


All I have are Cools, Neutrals, and Warms, No HCRI's,yet. Look forward to seeing a comparison between a cool filitered and HCRI.
So far I have only tried the Lee diffusers #252 Eighth White and 452 Sixteenth White on a Spark SL-6 740NW. I have the frosted lense for the Spark SL-5 190NW, and it works very well, but you lose too much useful light with it. The Lee filters allow you to smooth it out a little, or fully with the variety in the swatch book. Thanks Derek for sharing this thread. This is fun and cool.
GL


----------



## Cataract

dd61999 said:


> Anyone dare compare their best fitted filter flashlight to a high CRI flashlight. I think it would make a great challange!



Still haven't had the time to play with my filter book, but my brand new H51C is definitely not quite on par with my older Quark neutral (Q3) and my TK20. I get the best color rendition with my TK20 (and I'm not selling it ever!). I'll try to find some time to play with the book and see if I can get my SC51c give me the same color rendition as my TK20 and then try to get other lights close to that.


----------



## Derek Dean

dd61999 said:


> Anyone dare compare their best fitted filter flashlight to a high CRI flashlight. I think it would make a great challange!


I would love to see this. 

As we've discussed before in this thread, I don't think Hi CRI by itself is a good gauge of how well a light will render color, at least in the typical way we tend to think of it, and in that sense I think most of my filtered lights would win in a blind side-by-side shoot off, especially if they were going against a Hi CRI light in the 3000 K range. 

If somebody wants to loan me a Hi CRI light, I'd be happy to shoot photos comparing it to my filtered Fenix LD01, Jetbeam Bk-135a, NovaTac 120P, and Zebralight SC600. 

Somebody more knowledgeable than myself would have to design the criteria by which we judge the results, but I think it would be fun and informative.

Actually, now that you've got me thinking about it, I wonder if the best of both worlds would be a Hi CRI light, say 93 CRI which is generally available in the 3000k range, that is then filtered to remove the excess warm tint. Hmmmmm........


----------



## Diablo_331

dd61999 said:


> how did you fit the filter on the eiger?


I used a little glue around the edges just as Derek suggested earlier in the thread. It hasn't seen any pocket time since but it should hold up I think.


----------



## gcbryan

ITPython said:


> I wonder if that is even possible from a practical aspect? Seems like it makes scientific sense to filter a higher color temp light to a lower one, but to go from a lower to a higher? There is probably no real difference filtering warms and cools, but it just doesn't seem like it would work very well for whatever reason. Would be an interesting experiment.
> 
> Somebody around here with filters has got to have some old incandescent lights lying around to be the warm-tint guinea pigs :thumbsup:



I think (?) maybe you can but you might be left with a 30 lumen light


----------



## Derek Dean

gcbryan said:


> I think (?) maybe you can but you might be left with a 30 lumen light


Yes, that's probably true, but I'll bet it would be 30 sweet looking lumens .


----------



## Blue72

I think whoever is up to the challange might want to use the following color rendition chart that can be printed out.

http://www.ae5d.com/mcc.html


----------



## Derek Dean

Thanks, dd61999. That will be helpful.


----------



## Derek Dean

ITPython, don't give up so easily. It's not as hard as you make it out to be. I've cut out quite a few of these, and all it takes is a bit of patience and some time.

First, you will need a sharp pair of scissors. I'm too clumsy to use as knife, as I'd just end up cutting myself. 

After you've picked out the filter, simply place the flashlight bezel down on the filter and using a pen, draw a circle around the outside of the bezel onto to the filter, then cut out a small square that contains that circle. 

What you do next will depend on whether you're going to mount the filter inside or outside of the front cover. 

Of course inside is the best choice if possible, and if you do that, then it's easy to simply take off the front cover and lay it on the filter and draw another circle around the cover. Then, taking your time, start slowly trimming away that excess filter until you just have the part with the pen drawn circle. 

The way you trim, is to hold the filter in one hand and make a straight cut with your scissors all the way across the filter just to the edge where the line is, then you rotate the filter a bit and make another straight cut just to the edge. Each time you make a cut, it only gets just down to the edge where the line is, so you need to do this rotate and cut thing about 20 times to get a rough circle, rotating it just a tiny bit each time. 

Think of it like this. Draw a circle on a piece of paper, then using a ruler, draw a straight line on the paper that touches the outer edge of the circle. Then turn the ruler a bit and draw another straight line that just touches the edge of the circle. Keep doing that until you've touched all the edges of the circle with a straight line.

That's what you are doing with these cuts. You are slowly cutting out the circle using straight cuts that each time only barely touch the edge, and after enough of those you will have a rough circle. Then it's just a matter of *SLOWLY *smoothing it out and adjusting the size. 

It's not hard, because your cuts are straight, and after the first time around it looks really rough, with all these little points sticking out, and you'll still be able to see the circular line you've drawn, so it's probably still a bit to big. 

Now, place the filter on the glass cover and squeeze at the edges. If the filter is to big, it will buckle a bit. So, keep *SLOWLY *trimming, making straight cuts and rotating, but smaller and more precise now, making the circle smoother as you go, and stop every 2 or 3 cuts and put it on the glass again and see if it buckles when you squeeze the edges. 

Finally, you'll get it where it fits on the glass just right, then clean both the filter and the glass, but remember, this is a coated glass and needs to be cleaned VERY carefully to not mar the anti-reflective coating. I use the special tissues and cleaner for my glasses and it works well. 

Then re-assemble and your done.

If you're mounting it on the outside, it's basically the same procedure, but you just have to take it a little slower, and check the fit more often, and at some point it will just fit down inside the bezel and not come back up. I've done 3 lights that way, and while it wasn't hard, it did take me about 30 minutes of patiently and carefully sitting there and slowly trimming and then checking, and then a tiny bit more trimming and then checking, but I never had one that didn't fit perfectly in the end. 

* So, the key is a pair of sharp scissors, and patience.* I put on some nice jazz while I'm doing it and make sure I'm not in a hurry. Also, make sure your work area is clean, and I laid down a white T-shirt to make it easier to see when I dropped the tiny filter, which I did a few times. 

It really is worth the effort, and if you have a few mistakes, then keep trying. Even though I've done this quite a few times now, it still takes about 30 minutes for me to slowly and carefully trim these.

I hope this helps .


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## gcbryan

And sometimes you don't even have to take that much time. If you can take the bezel off (with some you can't of course) many will have enough extra space past the diameter of the bezel that you don't have to be exact. Just cut a circle out that is a tiny bit larger than the reflector and drop it in. If it buckles you made it too big but many times it doesn't buckle. It's certainly not rocket science. Some lights where you can't open the bezel and depending on the shape of the bezel can be harder and have to be exact or you will have issues as ITPython mentions.

I've found it tedious to cut diffusion film for my Zebralight H51 because of the shape of the bezel. I've used DCfix for many lights but with the H51 I ended up using tape because I couldn't get the DCfix exact enough and it created artifacts.

In all cases it can be done however. Good description Derek!


----------



## Got Lumens?

http://store.scrapbook.com/f-7436.html

Circle cutters work well for starters to trim down to correct size. Also for lights with a bezel smaller than 1/2" you can use regular hole punches.
GL


----------



## Derek Dean

ITPython, you seem a bit quick to call things "impossible". I know that when I first started playing with these filters, I spent *many* days trying various filters with various results. Part of the problem can be eye fatigue, or more accurately, brain fatigue, when I find that after trying various filters for an hour or so I realize that I need to take a break, maybe for a half-an-hour, maybe until the next night. 

When I was filtering my XP-G based lights, I found it fairly easy, because the spot and the spill were basically the same tint, so one filter worked for the entire beam, but my recent experience with my first XM-L light showed the same thing you've found, that some LEDs can exhibit odd two or even three different tints within the same beam, making filtering a much more challenging proposition. 

My choice with my Zebralight SC600 XM-L was to filter for the spot/corona, and let the spill go where it may, and I must admit that I've been very happy with the results. It's quite pleasant now.

Is it perfect. No, but it is *MUCH* better. 

You've only been playing with filters for a couple of days. Give it some time, and try not to think of this as a way to the "perfect" tint, but a way to take an existing light that has a disgusting tint, and at least make it usable, if not downright beautiful.


----------



## Blue72

Saw this article on line. It seems that using filters does improve CRI

http://www.coollights.biz/wordpress/archives/category/articles


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## Streamer

I have to admit it took me about 6 trys but I finally got it ! My wife suggested her grommet kit and was just about right. There is a cutter die, but unfortunately it is just a tad small, but it works ! Cuts a perfect circle. Now if someone could just locate the perfect diameter cutter all the hassle of hand cutting would be over with.

Anyways, I did it the old fashioned way ..with sharp scissors and determination (six attempts LOL) I used the Designer Series Pale Gold #152 swatch and applied it to the LDO1 The Pale Rose #154 is also good, but is a more diffused cellophane. Either will remove the green tint from the LDO1. Below is finished product.

I wonder if torch specific threads could be started as applicable to each model of torch that cpfer's wish to tint-change. hmmmm..

And thanks, Derek Dean ! It was your lead that I followed to get the pissy green out of my Life..LOL Thanks !


----------



## Sanderman

Does anyone who's done this have the ability to measure relative light loss? I wonder why no flashlight manufacturer has thought of this?


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## Streamer

Sanderman said:


> Does anyone who's done this have the ability to measure relative light loss? I wonder why no flashlight manufacturer has thought of this?



I wasn't for tinting if a huge amount of light was lost. There isn't. I can't measure it, that's for sure. But the monumental color correction of the puky green more than makes up for any loss IMO..whatever that may be.


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## gcbryan

Sanderman said:


> Does anyone who's done this have the ability to measure relative light loss? I wonder why no flashlight manufacturer has thought of this?



There is a data card behind each filter and most include transmission percentage so 100-transmission percentage would be the light loss.

If you are just trying to remove a slightly green or blue tint you just need a light filter and the light loss isn't bad especially considering that most lights have plenty to spare and removing an annoying tint is so nice!


----------



## Derek Dean

ITPython, luckily, you've still got options:

1. Accept your light exactly as it is and enjoy it.

2. Return your light, either for an exchange and hope for better luck with the LED tint lottery next time, or simply to try a different light (depending, of course, on what kind of a return/exchange policy your retailer has).

3. Mod your light with an LED of your choosing (a very viable alternative that other CPF members have done. It would require a bit of research, but might be a lot of fun). 

4. Accept that while filtering may not be perfect, you can pick the part of the beam that is the most important, and try to filter for that. 

And my favorite:
5. Don't give up, and find a method that none of us has thought of and save the day for many other CPF members who face the same challenge you're facing. 

By the way, I do understand what you're saying about the tint shifting when you change levels. Some lights do it more than others. My understanding is that it has to do with whether the light uses current controlled levels or PWM controlled levels, and of course the filters can't do anything to overcome that (at least that I know of).

In any case, I'm sorry the filters haven't worked for you. It's still a work in progress.


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## gcbryan

There's one more possible solution if you don't need a lot of throw. Diffuse it. That should lessen the effect you are experiencing without doing anything else and when combined with a light filter to reduce the tint in the center it may improve things overall.


----------



## nutcracker

*Aplying filters on a cold white Led to get a neutral white?*

Since the cold white tint of the HDS rotary is the only downside for me and I don't want to void the warranty with an emitter swap, I think about using a color filter.
What is the color temperature of the cold white XP-G? Is it 6500k?

I think about this filter. http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/products/finder/act:colourdetails/colourRef:C4630710CA3374/
They say it converts 6500k to 5100k

There is also one filter for 6500k to 4600k http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/products/finder/act:colourdetails/colourRef:C4630710C78BCE/

But I don't know if these are contained in the Filter catalog http://www.thomann.de/gb/lee_farbfolien_katalog.htm

Did you try these, did it work to get a neutral shine out of a cold white led?


----------



## Beacon of Light

Thanks for this thread! I placed an order for a handful of the numeric editions without realising the designer ones would be good to have. Does anyone know when they open as I am calling the 800 number and not getting through. I'll make half designer series and half numeric. Do they sell sheets of just one tint? It seems at least for LEDs there would be a lot of people needing the amber colored ones to correct older 5mm blue tints.


----------



## kaichu dento

Beacon of Light said:


> Thanks for this thread! I placed an order for a handful of the numeric editions without realising the designer ones would be good to have. Does anyone know when they open as I am calling the 800 number and not getting through. I'll make half designer series and half numeric. Do they sell sheets of just one tint? It seems at least for LEDs there would be a lot of people needing the amber colored ones to correct older 5mm blue tints.


You know it just struck me, while I don't like the idea of wasting any juice, I hate having plenty of high, but too much down low and some gray scale filters could help make some of your lights into low output wonders with the right gel.


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## nutcracker

I ordered these yesterday and they should arrive tomorrow http://www.calumetphoto.de/eng/product/lee_musterf_cher_f_r_lee_farbfilterfolien/leemuster Lee designer edition.
Either I can cut out the gel/foil that suits my taste. Or I don't destroy my sample catalog and buy the normal sheets.

They offer daylight conversion kits: http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/products/finder/ref:C46DD2D59CE24F/ that contain a few foils with different tints. Foils to make cool white light more warm. But they have foils for the other way round too. Warm to cold.


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## Beacon of Light

I tried to order several and then called to try to even out my order between numeric and designer swatch books. First guy I spoke to told me they only sell to companies. Then the second guy was ok with everything. Then an hour later I get an email saying they only sell a max of 2 per customer unless you are a teacher or involved with photography or something. I am asking the OP how did you come across this find unless you are a pro photographer? Also are you cutting out the swatch book filters or just noting what number they are and then making a separate order for actual filter sheets? They told me in the email I cannot even buy directly from them for the filter sheets. And with all my lights I'd need several of these swatch books to have enough of what I am guessing most will have similar tints that we find useful. Just wondering where you'd be buying these separate sheets of filters from? 

Has there been a group buy on these swatchbooks before? I was planning on buying about 13 initially as I figured this was easier to use the material right from the swatch books.


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## nutcracker

In Germany many music/studio equipment online shops have for example the Lee daylight to tungsten conversion pack for ~22-25€
These webshops do have stage lighting stuff and hence they do have foils too.

Can't you find such web stores?


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## Beacon of Light

I'm not in Germany and I'm not a pro photographer. I'm a flashaholic and would like to experiment like the OP has done thus the creation of this thread.


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## nutcracker

Why do you seem sulky? I only gave you a hint, where to search. I didn't ever assume that you are in Germany, I just gave a hint for what to look after.


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## Beacon of Light

Not sulky, just seems strange this thread is a few months old and it doesn't seem like there is a sure fire place of where to buy these. The guys at the link in the first post actually canceled my entire order of 13 swatch books. I was expecting them to keep the 2 I ordered still in tact, since they emailed me that the max they allow is 2. 

Now I'm probably needing to find a new place to order these. Where are all the other people in this thread that did wind up buying these swatches where did they buy them from and how did they get around the idea you have to be a pro photographer apparently in order to even buy these $2 swatches?


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## nutcracker

Maybe order it here?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lee-Filters...1692688?pt=Camera_Filters&hash=item43aaffb190


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## Beacon of Light

$6 shipping for a $2 item? No way that's happening. That's why I ordered 13 initially from leefilters to be able to rationalize the 10.90 shipping rate.


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## Harold_B

Not sure if this is any help or not as I didn't page through all of the available "Lee" stuff but perhaps you can find what you are looking for here:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=Lee+filters&N=0&InitialSearch=yes

I have the data for the minus green filter and plan to run a simulation with the Cree XM-L in the next week or so. I'm curious about the drop in output myself.


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## Beacon of Light

I didn't see any swatchbooks on the B&H Photo site, I actually looked this morning when I was getting the brush off from leefilters and they sell the filters but not the swatchbooks.


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## Harold_B

Sorry. I assume you have checked this one too? If it's another deadend I'll stop!

http://goknight.com/lee-filters-swatch-book-designers-edition/


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## Beacon of Light

That's a help they carry the filter sheets and the designer swatch book. I might consider buying a few sheets along with the Swatchbook if I know they will be useful. I recall the rose pink being used as well as the ******* amber.


----------



## Hondo

Beacon, I think most of us just ordered the swatch book from Lee. I saw on the product page the order limit for two books, and the first is only a penny with the code "SWATCH". No mention of needing to be a professional. They ship in an "if it fits it ships" $5 USPS box, and I think they only charge $5.20 S&H. So for a little over $7, you get two books, which will do a lot of lights. I thought I would end up needing a lot of the same two or three tints, but all lights are a bit different, and in the end I have used almost all different swatches for each light I've done, so still plenty to go on the first book.

I bet if you place a clean web order for two books, they will come to you just fine.

I've killed a lot of ugly with these now, and turned some "blah" into "oooh!" as well.


----------



## Harry999

Derek Dean,

I now have four of those Lee Filters Swatch books. I have been playing around with them. They definitely have an effect in changing tint. I intend to play around with the diffusion filters to see if I can make my HCRI Preon 2 more floody.

Thanks for letting us all in on this 'secret'!


----------



## Derek Dean

Your welcome, Harry. I'm glad your having fun with the filters. I am too! 

I just love my new *Zebralight SC600* (the cool white version), and since the bezel has no locktite, it's super simple to add filters and I've kind of gone nuts this week.

Here's what I've been up to:

The players:






Here is the color checker target I used (Thanks Andrew K. Dart!!!):
http://www.ae5d.com/mcc.html

I printed it on my Epson 2200 inkjet printer and had the print on a wall in a dark room with the camera 3 feet from it, with the SC600 mounted on top of the camera, also 3 feet from the wall. My Canon G10 was in manual mode with the white balance locked to *DAYLIGHT*. ASA 400, 1/15th second at F 4.5.

After a lot of reading I've come to the conclusion that with a current controlled light like the the SC600, it's important to do my filter testing at a lower level, so all shots were with the light in the M2 level (21 lumens). This is important because the light always tends to look whiter at the higher light levels, but it shows it's "true color" at the lower levels. 

And now, here is my first animated .gif. Enjoy:





So far, I'm leaning towards the Light Salmon. It's got a tiny bit of a warm pink tint, which is exactly what I like, so I'm going to live with that for a week or so and see how I like it. 

I included the Sunset Red, Dark Amber, and Rust because I'm finding I enjoy having a candle light tint for tail standing the light when I'm getting ready for bed at night. The Sunset Red is the winner for that task. Very restful indeed.

I've also taken some side view photos of the beams on a white wall and I'll post a .gif of those when I get a chance.... they are very interesting. 

Keep those reports coming in .


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## Harry999

WOW!


----------



## nutcracker

On my monitor the pale salmon 153 looks the best for me.
Good comparison shots. :thumbsup:


----------



## Derek Dean

I've found this to be an interesting experiment, because I learned a lot about how looking at pictures on a monitor can't really tell the whole story about how a beam looks in actual use. 

For instance, I'm finding that while I do value a light that render colors accurately, that's not necessarily the top criteria for me at this point. More important is a beam tint that pleases some innate inner sense that I can't even quite find words for, and that I think will be just a little different for each person, which simply reinforces what I've thought was the value of using filters all along...... *the ability to customize the tint of each light to please each individual's personal taste. *

Also, I want to preface this next animated .gif with a bit of explanation about what I think is going on. I'm not sure if it is the XM-L itself, or the design of the SC600 reflector, but there seem to be two quite distinct areas of tint contained within the beam, and it's quite evident in this series, with the unfiltered light showing a green/yellow spot surrounded by a bluish spill. 

When applying the filters, I'm able to get the central spot to a point that looks very nice using the Light Salmon filter, but it does leave a slight pinkish tint in the spill. I've found that doesn't bother me, but it might bother some folks, which is why I'm mentioning it. The side views that look almost neutral in the spill tend to have a center spot that is too warm for my taste, so in reality it's a bit of a balancing act to find the right filter for this particular situation. 

Personally, I find the center spot to be the most important area, and place greater weight on getting that right. In any case, I'm quite happy with the tint I've ended up with, and will probably do some outdoor shots to try and show how it looks in the real world. Ok, on with the show.

Again, shot with my Canon G10 in manual mode with the white balance locked to DAYLIGHT. ASA 400, 1/160th F4.5. The SC600 was in the M2 level (21 lumens).


----------



## SemiMan

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*



the.Mtn.Man said:


> I don't know if I'm a tint snob, but I was genuinely surprised when my wife said that she preferred cool white over warm high CRI because the former looked brighter. She didn't care a whit about accurate color rendering.




That is because CRI has nothing to do with accurate color rendering. It is only about how accurate a light source renders compared to a blackbody radiator (when under 5000k). Above 5000k, it is compared to the sun. Given our millions of years of evolution (no religious arguments accepted here), I can't really see much evolutionary pressure on our eyes to adapt to blackbody radiator light sources under 5,000K in terms of color rendering as generally those sources were either dangerous, or fairly low level.

You are not going to have much ability to differentiate different colors of blue if there is little blue content in the light source as would be the case with a <3000K black body light source so really how accurately is that source rendering blue?

Semiman


----------



## swan

Great thread Derek Dean, i have been comparing all my lights side by side and although they are all cool white r2, r5, xml, none are the same. They all seem vary in tint, with the best to my eye being my little zl h31 [ sc600 close 2nd] after white wall and outside use. I think this is great and inexpensive way to tweek your light to your liking- i guess the more lights i buy, the more variance ill see. Looking forward to trying these on the sc600-marty.


----------



## nanucq

Thank you Derek and all participants of this thread !!! I used Lee Filters contact page on Monday and i was pleased to receive the famous Swatch Book Designer Edition on Satursday, for free !!! As i live in europe and i can't order it from the Lee US webshop, i just asked where to order it....and they sent me a sample . 

With my Sunwayman M10A (XP-G R5), i'm quite pleased with the 279 "Eight Minus Green", but i'll try with the above selection for my PA40.
I'm also making tests with diffusion filters, making beams even more pleasants.


----------



## Sir Lightalot

Has anyone tried this with an E01? Maybe mine might actually be usable...


----------



## chicken dave

First - Thank you Derek! I purchased swatch books a few weeks ago, and finally got around to playing with them last night. These are fantastic. I started with a Propolymer 2 AA that had been relegated to non-use because of blue tint and splotchy beam. A bit of Straw 103 and Hampshire Frost 253 has given it a buttery smooth, slightly warm tint that is now my most pleasant light. Still bright enough to be very useable around the house (and it wasn't very bright to start with). Next up was a Surefire G2L that lives in my truck. Never liked the stark cool tint. I like this one with Straw also, but may go with Marlene 506. It gives it a very slightly pinkish tint. I'll play with this more tonight. 

I haven't purchased any lights for quite a while, waiting for neutral/warm versions to become available. I'm afraid now I WANT cool lights, to be able to customize them to the perfect tint. I can't decide between an SC600 and SC600w. Life has become wonderfully complicated.

Thanks again.

Dave


----------



## Derek Dean

Hey Dave, I'm glad the filters are working out for you. I wish all of life's decisions were as pleasant as choosing between an SC600 and an SC600w . You'll be happy either way!


----------



## Harry999

Derek Dean,

I finally left the 'playing' phase and settled on two mods I have wanted for some time.

I have the Neutral White Thrunite Neutron AA but it has the occasional mode switching problems which a good clean has sorted but I just don't trust it as of yet. I have the Cool White model as well which has absolutely no defects and an excellent beam profile (for my uses). An hour ago I used No 147 Apricot and inserted a cutout circle behind the screw in bezel of the Cool White Neutron. The tint is now just the same beautiful creamy neutral of the NW Neutron with just a hint more warmth - which is just what I wanted.


The second mod was to two of my Fenix MC11 lights. I use two at work where the pure white of the R2 led is perfect in cutting out artifacts from the artificial lighting in the office which keeps changing because the lighting is motion activated. 

At home however I have one MC11 as a headlamp and the other as a general use utility light. I wanted both to be very warm. Having recently received two HCRI Preons I loved the warm tint but wanted it to be even warmer to give a cosy and comforting ambiance when I am reading or lighting my way in the garden. Also the headlamp form and increased battery life over the Preon would be an advantage at home. For reading I wanted the effect when reading my Kindle to be like firelight. 

I can say that the two Fenix MC11 lights for home use are now the warmest lights I possess short of an incandescent lantern (and the candles I have), The tint is absolutely perfect to create the comforting and relaxing ambiance I wanted. I used the no 237 C.I.D. (TO TUNGSTEN) filter to get the effect I wanted.

I am certain I will be ordering some more Lee Filters Swatch books in January (when they won't get lost in the mail!). I am fortunate to know someone who is involved in sound and lighting for theatrical and church productions so he will be able to assist me in my endeavors to get the tints I want.

Derek Dean I now look forward to a very relaxing Christmas as some of my favourite lights will help create just the mood and lighting effect I want.

Like yourself I no longer worry too much about the tint of the led. I am more interested in its efficiency, beam profile and CRI rating. I can now buy a light without worrying if I will find the tint pleasant to use when it arrives. I can just change that as I want.

Edit: Just to note that I used No 147 Apricot on my Thrunite Ti. I love this as a nightlight but my view is a light used for such a role should preferably be warmer so it is even more useful at 0.04 lumen in keeping you in that half sleep state. The light is now as warm as I could wish. I am pretty happy with the results of my filter mods today.


----------



## Derek Dean

Harry, thanks for that detailed report of your successful filter uses. 

I sincerely feel that this is the best $5 a CPF member can spend towards improving the quality of their lights, and I'm happy to hear that other folks are enjoying their filters as much as I am.


----------



## luminositykilledthecat...

Hi 

I have owned the sc600 for a while now and love it for edc. The only gripe I have had with it is the green tint. Thanks to your info on lee filters I have now got a nice tint that I like. I have ended up with two filters to acheive my prefered tint. I have number 203 (1/4 C.T. BLUE) and number 249 (QUARTER MINUS GREEN). 

I was worried about loosing some output but after spending time comparing I can tell no difference in throw at all. It took less than two minutes to cut and apply the filters. Obviously its the choosing that takes time.

Thankyou very much, my fave edc is now even better.

Rob :thumbsup:


----------



## Harry999

I have decided to get the Zebralight SC600. The animated gifs above with the pale and light salmon filters have sold it to me. They should be in stock shortly at my UK retailer and I will be getting some AW3100s as well to feed the light! Can't wait for this light to get into my hands - I love floody beams!


----------



## Harry999

Just to update - the SC600 arrived today. Within 10 minutes I had tried out various Lee Filters and discovered that my favourite was Light Salmon. That light now has an absolutely beautiful tint and I am trying to find excuses to switch it on so I can admire the tint.

Regards

Harry


----------



## Derek Dean

Hey Harry, I'm glad you got your SC600..... what a great light. I started off with *Pale Salmon *in my SC600, which does give a lovely tint, but after a few weeks finally decided that I wanted more of a neutral light, with as little "tint" as possible, so I've ended up using the Light Pink filter, which gives me almost pure white light, and because it's a lighter filter I've increased the output as well. 

I've also created a little holder with a *Tungsten* filter that fits over the end of the SC600 which I use at night. When I'm getting ready for bed I ceiling bounce it and it's got a seriously nice glow which is also more pleasant for those late night bathroom visits. 

Enjoy your new light .


----------



## Harry999

Derek Dean,

It is indeed a great light. I really like the SC600. I was tempted to get an SC600w as well but realised I could probably get a neutral/warm tint of my choice using the filters so at this stage I won't worry about that. 

I agree with you that a warmer light at night is a good idea. I recently purchased a Jetbeam RRT-0 on the CPF marketplace which has a HCRI XP-G led in. I know I like that tint from my Preon HCRI so that will make an ideal night light. I would have considered trying to use a filter on my Jetbeam RRT-0 S2 but could not remove the bezel and I have not yet found a clear adhesive that can be used to attach filters conveniently. The great thing on the Jetbeam RRT-0 is how low you can dial the lumens especially if you are feeding it eneloops. It is like a Surefire Titan except in AA form (and of course much bigger!).


----------



## Harold_B

Has anyone had the opportunity to test a light before and after with a couple of different filters in an integrating sphere to measure the reduction in output? I have been too busy to finish a model and run a simulation and there's nothing like real data.


----------



## Got Lumens?

Harold_B said:


> Has anyone had the opportunity to test a light before and after with a couple of different filters in an integrating sphere to measure the reduction in output? I have been too busy to finish a model and run a simulation and there's nothing like real data.



Hi Harold,
I have bought an AEMC CA813 light meter with photopic response filter that I was going to build a HMIS with, but have not had the time. If you'd like I can give some 1M lux readings. I don't have a Jetbeam or SC600, but almost any and all of the 4Sevens lights, Spark SL5(NW) & SL6(NW), Skilhunt's Ramble series(Defiers too large of bezel), Inova X1(V2 XP-E) & X5, and several LED upgraded Mini Maglights. Just let me know which light and Filters I should try, and I give a whirl.

Derek Dean,
I have Three Preon2s(R5), one fitted with Red, (1) Blue and (1) Green filters. I am going to try that experiment suggested a couple months ago by shining them against a AAA Eneloop battery with a white back drop, but have not gotten a suitable white peice of cardboard to use for a curved backdrop. Do you think it will work with just using computer paper as a back drop? I will take some beamshots when I finally get the experiment setup and post them.

GL


----------



## Harold_B

Thanks GL. Any light will do. I'm interested in the filter number so that I can pull the spectrum data and the before and after output data. If you happen to have any information handy on the LED that is in the reference light all the better but not required if you can give me enough information to track it down myself. It's always a matter of not enough time to do the fun stuff....


----------



## RBWNY

So glad I found this thread! These little filters are very cool. I've had them about a week, and have already transformed several lights into more of a generally useable (& warmer) tint. I just hope they have the staying power to remain vibrant over time. I imagine if the lights are used on high less often, then the filter is less liklely to fade? 

I certainly have no use for many of the primary colors, but have put many of the magenta/orange/pink/neutral hues' to good use. Most of the frosted and flame retardent filters aren't what I need, but the initial low cost paid for itself just with the ones I HAVE used so far!

If you're thinking about these....go for it, you can't lose :naughty:.


----------



## nutcracker

I just modded my HDS Rotary with 206 Q.C.T.O
That is the filter that should make daylight to 4600k.
And now my HDS looks pretty uncolored, neutral. I like it.


----------



## Derek Dean

Got Lumens? said:


> Derek Dean,
> I have Three Preon2s(R5), one fitted with Red, (1) Blue and (1) Green filters. I am going to try that experiment suggested a couple months ago by shining them against a AAA Eneloop battery with a white back drop, but have not gotten a suitable white peice of cardboard to use for a curved backdrop. Do you think it will work with just using computer paper as a back drop? I will take some beamshots when I finally get the experiment setup and post them.
> 
> GL


Any white sheet of paper will work for that fun experiment. I've included below the original post, by gcbryan, which outlines the idea. 



gcbryan said:


> Since everyone on here has multiple flashlights and presumably a filter pack as well here is an interesting light experiment.
> 
> Tape a red, blue, and green filter over 3 lights (one each of course). Prop up a white piece of cardboard or paper on your desktop as a background and stand an Eneloop (or anything really) about an inch in front of that white background. Turn on all of the flashlights and aim them all at the Eneloop. So you will have a spot of red, green, and blue all coming together.
> 
> Where they all come together behind the Eneloop will be white. Any area where they don't overlap at all will either be blue, green, or red. There will also be 3 shadows and they will be cyan, yellow, and magenta. If you position the lights just right you will also have some areas with just green, some with just blue and some with just red (just is behind the Eneloop where only one color gets through).
> 
> You will have 6 colors in all from just 3 light. Try moving your hand just in front of the white paper as well for a more dynamic effect...you will get the same shadow effect of yellow, cyan, and magenta. You might even be surprised to see that green and red makes yellow!
> 
> For anyone reading this who doesn't have your filter pack yet just use 3 clear drinking glasses and some food dye ($3 from any grocery store). Put some blue dye in one glass, red in another glass, and green in the 3rd glass and position each flashlight behind each glass for the same effect.
> 
> It's fun...what can I say!


----------



## pocketlight

Derek Dean said:


> ITPython, you seem a bit quick to call things "impossible". I know that when I first started playing with these filters, I spent *many* days trying various filters with various results. Part of the problem can be eye fatigue, or more accurately, brain fatigue, when I find that after trying various filters for an hour or so I realize that I need to take a break, maybe for a half-an-hour, maybe until the next night.
> 
> When I was filtering my XP-G based lights, I found it fairly easy, because the spot and the spill were basically the same tint, so one filter worked for the entire beam, but my recent experience with my first XM-L light showed the same thing you've found, that some LEDs can exhibit odd two or even three different tints within the same beam, making filtering a much more challenging proposition.
> 
> My choice with my Zebralight SC600 XM-L was to filter for the spot/corona, and let the spill go where it may, and I must admit that I've been very happy with the results. It's quite pleasant now.
> 
> Is it perfect. No, but it is *MUCH* better.
> 
> You've only been playing with filters for a couple of days. Give it some time, and try not to think of this as a way to the "perfect" tint, but a way to take an existing light that has a disgusting tint, and at least make it usable, if not downright beautiful.



How do you filter ONLY the spot/corona?? I have the SC600 and the spill is a really nice cool blue but the spot/corona is very green and its starting to notice it a lot, so i want to filter it.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Got Lumens?

Hi,
Using the Lee Filter Swatch book I took a few photos using 4 Sevens Preon2 CW R5 hosts.
Filters used are Primary Red #106, Just Blue #079, & Primary Green #139.
Clickable thumbnails.
Enjoy
GL


 . 

 .


----------



## Got Lumens?

pocketlight said:


> How do you filter ONLY the spot/corona?? I have the SC600 and the spill is a really nice cool blue but the spot/corona is very green and its starting to notice it a lot, so i want to filter it.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


He means that he choose the filters based upon the hotspot and corona and how they looked and let the rest of the beam as he said fall where it may. The whole lens was filtered, hence all portions of the beam and thier inherent tints.
GL


----------



## Derek Dean

Got Lumens?, VERY NICE photos. What's interesting to me, is that all in one place we get to see how the primary colors combine to make white, but we also get to see how they are responsible for the secondary colors as well. Neat!

And you were absolutely correct that I was referring to using one filter to correct the corona and hotspot, and letting the spill go where it wants. Thanks for clearing that up. It sounds like pocketlight has an LED very similar in tint to the one I've got. I did spend a day cutting out small circles, rings, etc, trying to find a way to filter the separate regions independently of each other, but in the end, I wasn't happy with the results and found that simply applying a Light Pink filter for the whole thing worked best for my tastes. 

No, it's not perfect. There is a slight violet tint to the spill, but the corona and hotspot are nearly perfect, and after using the filtered light for several months I'm completely happy with the results, and trust me, I tend to be a perfectionist, so if the slight tint variation of the spill was an issue I would have sold this light off long ago, as those kinds of things tend to bother me more and more over time, but instead, I still find myself enjoying white wall hunting, and outdoors, where it gets most of it's use, the beam appears to have no tint at all, just pure white light. 

I will mention that about a month ago I did see a post over in the ZL SC600 thread from somebody who said they had successfully managed to filter the different areas of the beam, but they never elaborated on how that was accomplished, so maybe it's possible and I just didn't have enough patience. 

So, you might want to check out the ZL thread and see if you can find those posts and PM the CPF member to see if they might be able to give you some advice on the matter. Let us know what you find.


----------



## Got Lumens?

Derek Dean said:


> Got Lumens?, VERY NICE photos. What's interesting to me, is that all in one place we get to see how the primary colors combine to make white, but we also get to see how they are responsible for the secondary colors as well. Neat!


Thanks Derek Dean.



Derek Dean said:


> And you were absolutely correct that I was referring to using one filter to correct the corona and hotspot, and letting the spill go where it wants. Thanks for clearing that up. It sounds like pocketlight has an LED very similar in tint to the one I've got. I did spend a day cutting out small circles, rings, etc, trying to find a way to filter the separate regions independently of each other, but in the end, I wasn't happy with the results and found that simply applying a Light Pink filter for the whole thing worked best for my tastes.
> 
> No, it's not perfect. There is a slight violet tint to the spill, but the corona and hotspot are nearly perfect, and after using the filtered light for several months I'm completely happy with the results, and trust me, I tend to be a perfectionist, so if the slight tint variation of the spill was an issue I would have sold this light off long ago, as those kinds of things tend to bother me more and more over time, but instead, I still find myself enjoying white wall hunting, and outdoors, where it gets most of it's use, the beam appears to have no tint at all, just pure white light.
> 
> I will mention that about a month ago I did see a post over in the ZL SC600 thread from somebody who said they had successfully managed to filter the different areas of the beam, but they never elaborated on how that was accomplished, so maybe it's possible and I just didn't have enough patience.
> 
> So, you might want to check out the ZL thread and see if you can find those posts and PM the CPF member to see if they might be able to give you some advice on the matter. Let us know what you find.



Derek Dean, The only possible solution I can see that would work would be to use a ring then another full filter ontop of that. So I would start with full filter getting hotspot just so, then testing second filters on top of that to determine that combination that works best for the spill and/or corona. Depending upon the size of the ring you cut once found during testing with full size filters, will determine how much spill/corona you want to look different. Have you tried diffussers with a filter? Maybe able to acheive better results using a diffuser ring inconjunction with the full size filter. 

Not sure which light you will try this on, But I have found that hole punches work excellent for smaller bezeled lights. I have found larger 1" and 1-1/2" hole punches, but they weren't readily available and were expensive. Since most bezels are metric sized, at least you could start with a circle to ease the trimming process. At the Dollar store el'cheapo tools section I found a set of six 3/16" - 1/2" for $10.
GL


----------



## Derek Dean

Thanks for ideas, GL, the hole punches would definitely make it easer, but honestly I'm so happy with the results I've gotten with a single filter I don't see any point in bothering further. In real use the very, very, slight violet tint of the spill beam is completely unnoticeable, especially if I'm using a setting of 65 lumens or higher. 

It's funny, I had actually considered returning the light after first turning it on...... I just couldn't believe how funky the tint was, so funky that I didn't think a filter would even help....... but it simply took a bit more patience to find the "right" filter, and presto chango, I was a happy camper again.


----------



## Got Lumens?

Derek Dean said:


> Thanks for ideas, GL, the hole punches would definitely make it easer, but honestly I'm so happy with the results I've gotten with a single filter I don't see any point in bothering further. In real use the very, very, slight violet tint of the spill beam is completely unnoticeable, especially if I'm using a setting of 65 lumens or higher.
> 
> It's funny, I had actually considered returning the light after first turning it on...... I just couldn't believe how funky the tint was, so funky that I didn't think a filter would even help....... but it simply took a bit more patience to find the "right" filter, and presto chango, I was a happy camper again.


Hi Derek,
Sorry if I overlooked it, but could you post a before and after picture?
Thanks
GL


----------



## psychbeat

Hmmm

I was thinking of starting a new thread but I'll ask here. 

Are the losses of using one of the more subtle filters greater than going from cool to warm emitters?

I'm wondering if there's any reason to gamble with neutral tints as creating your own seems fairly easy with most lights/hosts etc. 

It might be a neat test to measure a U2 before and after filter and T5 neutral.
I've been disappointed with some of my recent neutral drops not being the temp I was hoping for. 

I also wonder if lux is affected more than total lumens?

Hmmm


----------



## Got Lumens?

psychbeat said:


> Hmmm
> I was thinking of starting a new thread but I'll ask here.
> Are the losses of using one of the more subtle filters greater than going from cool to warm emitters?
> I'm wondering if there's any reason to gamble with neutral tints as creating your own seems fairly easy with most lights/hosts etc.
> It might be a neat test to measure a U2 before and after filter and T5 neutral.
> I've been disappointed with some of my recent neutral drops not being the temp I was hoping for.
> I also wonder if lux is affected more than total lumens?
> Hmmm


Psychbeat,
Each filter lists the spectrums and loss factor. So it would depend upon which LED you start with and it's binning. I have tried XM-L U2s and also XM-L T5s, although the T5s I have are pretty good all in thier own. I have the 2 Sparks SL-6s, one SL-5, and an Armytek Predator they all have wonderful tint without any additional filters. I primarily use the diffusers with the SL-5 and predator that doesn't come with a frosted lens. Do you have a swatch book? I can test my lights, but in the end it is your lights and what you see and want that counts .
GL


----------



## psychbeat

No I haven't ordered a book yet. 
Almost all of my lights are neutral already. 
I was thinking of future lights - as in buying cool and using filters rather than one that's already neutral. 

I'm just wondering if filters + cool are more or less efficient than warmer or neutral emitters in their own


----------



## Derek Dean

Got Lumens? said:


> Hi Derek,
> Sorry if I overlooked it, but could you post a before and after picture?
> Thanks
> GL


GL, If you look on page 6 of this thread, post #161 has a .gif animation that shows a color chart which I lit with the hot spot of my SC600 with no filter, and also with a variety of Lee filters. 

Post #164 shows how the entire beam looks, both with no filter and a variety of Lee Filters. I've ended up using the Light Pink filter. 

Psychbeat, I pondered exactly the same question. I had waited for the SC600*w *all summer, but after reading MANY posts in other threads about folks who were disappointed with the "neutral" LED they had gotten in other brands of lights I decided to go ahead and get the cool white tint and filter it myself. No regrets. 

I think it depends on a number of factors whether I would consider getting a neutral LED or a cool white and filtering it myself. For instance, what kind of track record does the brand have with providing acceptable "neutral tint" lights? ZL has a pretty good track record, Fenix...... well.........

How easy is it to get the bezel open? I prefer to have the filter *inside* the front glass cover. It was easy to open the SC600, but the H600 headlamp sounds like it would be a problem. 

What kind of light loss is associated with each method? Using the SC600 as an example, there seems to be a 14% loss of light between the SC600 and the SC600*w *(750 lumen top end or 645 lumen top end respectively). My Light Pink Lee filter has a transmission rate of about 62%, so about 38% loss, more than double the loss of the neutral LED version..... but..... I knew that going in, and decided that the SC600 was a bright enough light that I could take that kind of a hit, and getting pretty close to exactly the tint I wanted for my EDC was worth it TO ME. 

Many of the lighter filters (quarter minus green for example) have between 10% and 15% loss, so I could easily go with one of those and have a tint similar to the neutral LED, but like I said, I don't mind the loss because even now, I almost never use more than the 200 lumen setting as my high, and having a tint I REALLY like is high on my list of priorities.

In any case, if I was going to get an H600 headlamp, knowing that ZL has a good track record of acceptable neutral tints, and knowing that it would be hard to open the front cover, I'd probably opt to buy the H600w neutral tint version of that light. 

If I was going to buy another SC600, I'd probably get the cool white version again and just filter it. That way I start with the brightest version, and then get to pick my own tint, and for a tint geek like me, that's the only way to go .

If I was going to buy a Fenix light, I'd probably opt for the cool white version and simply place the filter on the outside of the front glass cover, which is exactly what I did with my LD01, because I've read to many bad reports about the Fenix neutral LEDs.


----------



## psychbeat

My main headlamp and almost all of my other lights are p60 based which I can pretty much order in whatever tint bin available. 
There's still a little bit of a lottery of course. 
I'm mostly wondering which is more efficient in general.


----------



## Derek Dean

phsybeat, I guess what you'd need to do would be to have the cool white AND neutral versions of a particular light, then filter the cool white version so that it's tint appeared as close as possible to the the neutral version, and then measure the output of both lights. That's a good question.


----------



## Harry999

psychbeat,

I have both the SC600 and the SC600w. I acquired the SC600w a few days ago and only because I trust my local Internet retailer who checks items before he sends them to me. I previously used the SC600 for just over a month with a filter. The tint was absolutely great with the filter on the SC600 but there was a noticeable loss of lumens. 

The SC600 is my urban outdoors light where I want to have maximum cool white lumens if required to cut through ambient light. I therefore stopped using the filter and purchased the SC600w knowing I could change the tint through filters to one I liked if I had a problem with the 'stock' tint. Fortunately there was absolutely no problem and I had a light with a great tint - absolutely no green on any level!

Clearly in my experience and per the yield loss that can be easily calculated from the details provided with each filter in the Lee filters swatch book a stock neutral led will provide more lumens than a filtered cool white tint converted to neutral but as Derek Dean notes it comes down to what your preferred regular edc lumens usage is and how important a tint is to you.

I certainly consider use of filters on some of my edc lights. Others have a naturally pleasing tint to my eye and so I leave them alone. Where the filters are great is that it allows you to buy a stock light with the expectation that you can still have the tint you want by creating it yourself.


----------



## psychbeat

I 100% agree with u guys on the idea of making your own tint vs hoping a 5B2 is really going look like its supposed to according to the binning chart. 

I'd LOVE to see shootout with an IS and see the lux and lumens gained or lost that's all 

Anyways I've been meaning to order a swatch book since coming across this thread a while ago. 

Thanks guys!


----------



## Got Lumens?

Derek Dean,
Here's a first for the thread. A Lee filter that increased the lux power of the light on low level . Calculated 1M Lux without 0.1175. Calculated 1M lux with 0.475 lux.
#271 Mirror Silver
GL




. . . Click to Enlarge


----------



## THE_dAY

Got Lumens? said:


> Derek Dean,
> Here's a first for the thread. A Lee filter that increased the lux power of the light on low level . Calculated 1M Lux without 0.1175. Calculated 1M lux with 0.475 lux.
> #271 Mirror Silver
> GL


Nice!
Did you just place it over or is it glued down?

A 4 times increase in lux, very impressive!


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## Got Lumens?

THE_dAY said:


> Nice!
> Did you just place it over or is it glued down?
> 
> A 4 times increase in lux, very impressive!


The dAY,
This was just on a whim I had. Basically I used a Rounded setting punch use for installing eyelets on tarps. I precut a small square, used the setting punch to make the square dished, Then I used a 5/32" hole punch and knocked the center out. Then I trimmed the square into round. And just placed it over the GITD rubber. I did not glue or anything as of yet, as this was just a test. I am very pleased with these priliminary results. It gives me a much more useable amount of lumens on low. Because this light is totally flood, no gains were noticed on high due to the lights design of the GITD insert not being optically shaped for the XP-E emitter. Please feel free to offer any suggestions to make this a more permanent solution. I am in the process of setting up some beam shots, and will post the results when they are done.
Thanks
GL


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## Derek Dean

GL, I've got to hand it to you, that is certainly an impressive use of the Lee Filter Swatch Book. I'm looking forward to the beam shots.


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## Got Lumens?

Derek Dean said:


> GL, I've got to hand it to you, that is certainly an impressive use of the Lee Filter Swatch Book. I'm looking forward to the beam shots.


Here are two recent wall shots. I will try to get some outdoor shots soon.
First a Freehand shot with the Preon0's distance to wall ~6":



. . . Click to Enlarge

Second a controlled shot with the Preon0's distance to wall 10":



. . . Click to Enlarge

GL


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## sspc

Thank you Derek for sharing this great information. I just ordered the Lee filters and can't wait to ungreen my Eagletac D25LC2


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## saabluster

Derek Dean Big thanks for sharing this with the community. I just bought myself one and can't wait to give it a try. :thumbsup:


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## DM51

saabluster said:


> Derek Dean Big thanks for sharing this with the community. :thumbsup:


Agreed! This thread is now added to the "Threads of Interest" sticky.


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## THE_dAY

Yes, big thanks to Derek!

The best and easiest way to make your favorite light even better by giving it your favorite tint!


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## Derek Dean

I'm happy to hear that CPF members are having success with these filters. I hope you'all will post before and after photos.

It's interesting to me that the Philips LED light bulb is basically a bunch of blue-white LEDs that are being filtered with several yellow panels:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007C7IGUU/?tag=cpf0b6-20

I've got an interesting experiment in the works. As most of you know, I'm a big believer in the power of using these filters as an *easy and inexpensive* method for changing the tint of almost any flashlight's LED to any color you like, however, I keep hearing about these neat new HiCRI LEDs and I felt it was important to see for myself what all the fuss was about.

So, when the opportunity arose recently to have my NovaTac 120P modded with a Nichia 219 NVSL 4500k LED (CRI 92), I jumped on it. Most of the previous HiCRI LEDs were in the 3000k color temp range, which is way to red/yellow for me, but this new 4500K HiCRI LED has me quite intrigued and I'm very interested to see how my light looks when I get it back.

Keep in mind, I had previously filtered the SSC LED in the NovaTac 120P with a rose tinted filter to get a VERY white tint, so mainly I'm interested to see if the HiCRI has much of an effect on the color reproduction compared to the original filtered SSC LED.

There is another thread here which shows the tint of a very similar LED (Nichia 119 NVSL):
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...-119-beamshots

If my light comes out looking like that, then I'll be a happy camper. I did take shots of my light's beam on a color chart with the original SSC LED, both unfiltered and filtered, before I sent it off for the mod, and I'll take a photo of the same color chart when I get the light back with the new Nichia 219 HiCRI 4500k LED. I'll post the results here .

Of course filtering is MUCH easier than sending the light off for modding, and you get to see the results INSTANTLY instead of having to wait for weeks. And even if you do the mod yourself, unless you're able to pick an exact tint bin, you'll always have to contend with the "LED tint lottery". 

In any case, I'm very interested to get my first HiCRI LED light and compare it with my filtered lights. What fun!


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## Harry999

Looking forward to see the results of that experiment, Derek Dean. I have become a big fan of HCRI lights and drop ins.


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## Got Lumens?

Derek,
Thats really good news. I think you will be very pleased. I think there will be more lumens for you to enjoy with a little less loss.
GL


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## saabluster

Derek Dean said:


> It's interesting to me that the Philips LED light bulb is basically a bunch of blue-white LEDs that are being filtered with several yellow panels:
> http://www.amazon.com/Philips-Ambien.../dp/B007C7IGUU



Well filtering is not exactly what they are doing. Those are phosphor impregnated which is actually converting blue to other wavelengths not simply filtering out the undesirable to reach an ideal tint. There is a significant difference there.


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## Cataract

saabluster said:


> Well filtering is not exactly what they are doing. Those are phosphor impregnated which is actually converting blue to other wavelengths not simply filtering out the undesirable to reach an ideal tint. There is a significant difference there.



Interesting... phosphorous filters... any chance they make those in sheets?


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## saabluster

Cataract said:


> Interesting... phosphorous filters... any chance they make those in sheets?



Yes they do. Its called Chromalit and can be purchased at Future Electronics.


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## nutcracker

This?
http://www.futureelectronics.com/en...12910-CL-930-S21-PC.aspx?IM=0&source=googleps


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## saabluster

nutcracker said:


> This?
> http://www.futureelectronics.com/en...12910-CL-930-S21-PC.aspx?IM=0&source=googleps



That's it. There are several temps to choose from. They work very well.


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## Derek Dean

Howdy saabluster,
Oh, that's VERY cool. Thanks for pointing out the difference! 

nutcracker, thanks for the link. 

That is pretty neat stuff, although the closest I found to what I'd be interested in was 4000k with 80 CRI, or 5000k with 70 CRI. I imagine used in a flashlight this would provide a super flat flood. Hmmmm.......


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## Cataract

WOW! It does seems like it would only provide for a flood filter, though. I've been looking into making my own flood filter adaptors and I'll definitely try one of those when I get there.


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## Got Lumens?

Cataract said:


> WOW! It does seems like it would only provide for a flood filter, though. I've been looking into making my own flood filter adaptors and I'll definitely try one of those when I get there.


The Lee Swatch book has a pretty good selection of diffusion filters. I have tried several of them with great success. My only gripe is the Swatch book filters are only 1.5" wide, but knowing about that Chromalit solves that problem, Thanks Saabluster.
GL


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## Harold_B

Perhaps the difference between filters and the remote phosphors was a little understated? I noticed the remote phosphors being referred to as "phosphor filters" and that there is interest in using them as a secondary means of changing the color temperature. Unless the Chromalit is specifically formulated to downconvert a cool white then it's not going to work that way. The literature does (and all of the demos I have had with the product) require a blue LED.

There's this as a secondary reference on optimizing the Chromalit product: http://www.intematix.com/uploads/files/intematix_mixing_chamber_design_for_chromalit.pdf

The basic difference is that filters remove a part of the spectrum to change to color temperature; phosphors absorb a specific wavelength and downconvert that to another wavelength.


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## och

These intematix filters are garbage IMO. I bought one to try it out, and it works as far as changing color goes, but it also obscures most of the light - judging just by looks alone about 70% of light is lost.


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## Got Lumens?

och said:


> These intematix filters are garbage IMO. I bought one to try it out, and it works as far as changing color goes, but it also obscures most of the light - judging just by looks alone about 70% of light is lost.


I would stick to the swatch book. IMO. The technology of the Intermax is designed for Blue LEDs, and absorbtion of a specific spectrum of light that is not congruent to everyday LED flashlights. Unless you match the Intrmax filter with an approriate light source, it will not have enough useable brightness in the spectrum with which it was designed operate. I am not surprised with your results, and Thank You for sharing them with us.
GL


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## och

Got Lumens? said:


> I would stick to the swatch book. IMO. The technology of the Intermax is designed for Blue LEDs, and absorbtion of a specific spectrum of light that is not congruent to everyday LED flashlights. Unless you match the Intrmax filter with an approriate light source, it will not have enough useable brightness in the spectrum with which it was designed operate. I am not surprised with your results, and Thank You for sharing them with us.
> GL



I tried it even with blue LEDs, and it seems that they just absorb most of the brightness.


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## Got Lumens?

och said:


> I tried it even with blue LEDs, and it seems that they just absorb most of the brightness.


OK, they do not work well with what you have tried. The Intermax company maybe selling products that do not work with consumer LEDs, I donno. Your results suggest they are. I am just saying that many here have had good results with the swatch books, and you should give them a try before giving up on changing tint using filters . Everyones test and inputs add value to this thread, Thanks.
GL


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## saabluster

och said:


> These intematix filters are garbage IMO. I bought one to try it out, and it works as far as changing color goes, but it also obscures most of the light - judging just by looks alone about 70% of light is lost.



As I said before these are *not* filters. I guess I assumed everyone would understand what these were when I posted about them but it seems to have confused more than one person here so sorry if I wasn't clear enough. These are not designed to pair with white LEDs. They work best with royal blue LEDs. And they are most certainly not junk. They work fabulously for certain applications.


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## Derek Dean

saabluster, your explanation was very clear. I think it's mostly that it's a new technology (at least to us) and it will take a while before folks stop referring to it as "filters", especially when it's being discussed in a thread about filters. 

Of course I'm the one who brought it up, mistakenly thinking they were just filters, so again, I appreciate your efforts to give us the correct information. 

On another note, I just recently received my newly modded NovaTac 120P. I was lucky enough to get one of the Nichia 219 HICRI LEDs (CRI of 92) with the 4500k rating, and I'm in the process of evaluating that in comparison to my filtered lights. 

As soon as I get a chance, I'll take some photos of the color chart (and other things) and post the results here. I can only say at this point that the initial results are "interesting". 

Stay tuned to see if a state of the art HiCRI LED is any match for the Lee Filter Swatch Book :devil:.


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## Diablo_331

Tuned in for the results!


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## Derek Dean

Ok, so I got my NovaTac 120P modded with one of the new Nichia NVSL 219 (CRI of 92) LEDs with a color temp. of 4500k. I actually liked the original SSC P4 LED, but thought it was important to compare a state of the art HiCRI LED with some filtered lights that have tints that make me very happy. 

I used my filtered Fenix LD01 and filtered Jetbeam BK135a to compare with my unfiltered, newly modded HiCRI NovaTac. Both the Fenix and Jetbeam were at full power, while I tried to match the NovaTac to their power level and output, so around 65-80 lumens. My Canon G10 was locked in manual mode with DAYLIGHT white balance:

















So, they look pretty close to my eye, with the Nichia 219 HiCRI LED being just a bit warmer. 

It's important to note that the Nichia 219 becomes whiter as I apply more power. This seems to be common with current controlled lights like the NovaTac. It's also one of the reasons I have recommended in this thread for folks to check their filters at lower levels before settling on a particular filter. For instance, I tend to use my lights on the lower levels more than the higher levels, so I always pick my filters while on those levels. 

So, what did I learn from this exercise? Well, this new Nichia 219 is a *very fine* LED, and I think most folks will find it to be an excellent performer, however, it's still a bit warm for my taste (I'm exceedingly picky), so I've already added a -3/8 green filter. 

*Bottom line*........ *tint is a highly personal and subjective thing*, and for those of us who have not only found that we like a particular tint, but also enjoy the convenience of using filters to quickly and easily achieve that result in any new light we get, I still think the Lee Filter Swatch Book is the least expensive, easiest, and best way to get that tint.


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## Got Lumens?

Very nice photos :thumbsup:
I like the Nicha, followed by the Fenix, then the Jetbeam.
A very good comment on picking filters.
Will you post a comparison of the nichia filtered?
GL


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## Derek Dean

Got Lumens? I've got a feeling a lot of people will like the unfiltered Nichia 219 better than any of my filtered lights. It's actually a very nice tint, and it really does make the reds "pop". 

Of course, those same folks could get pretty much the same tint using filters , and there wouldn't be any question about what the tint was going to be..... no tint lottery, as they would get to pick their tint in "real time". But, some folks enjoy modding and the thrill of the hunt looking for that "perfect" LED, so that's fine too. 

If you scroll down this page a bit you'll see a comparison I posted between the unfiltered and filtered Nichia 219:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?336907-Post-your-Nichia-219-4500k-beamshots/page2

There really is no right or wrong. Some folks will prefer a warmer tint, some will prefer a cooler tint, and some won't care one way or the other. This was something I did just so I would have some experience with a good HiCRI LED, but now that I've done it I think the only reason I would change an LED would be to get one that is brighter and more efficient, and I would plan on filtering it to get the tint I wanted.


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## lightknot

The Lee Filter swatch books are a lot of fun and the included diffusion filters are quite useful. Saabluster, thanks for the tip on the Chromalit phosphorus filters.


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## orbital

+

Been testing_ ROSCOLUX _filters and the results have blown my socks off!!
{{sunset tints at the ready}}

....it you haven't picked up tint filters yet,
do yourself this favor & get some ordered up tonight.

One thing to mention, the beams diffuse slightly, verrrry slightly.

nevertheless, good fun & great results.:thumbsup:





^ my CL1H V2 with new kicks


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## H-Man

I think this thread is still useful. Anyone recon that a rebel emitter with a nasty green tint can be tinted to something more balanced?


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## Cataract

Good bump. I used my IFE2 last summer to scare a black bear away. I tried to get the closest color rendition I could get when compared to high CRI led's, so I have a very agressive filter on it, which probably reduces the output by about 30%. Despite the reduced output, my IFE2 did the job very nicely. It actually made the other guy's car headlights look like they were almost off. Unfortunately, black bears are black as night, so I can't really speak of good fur color rendition  but the leaves and trees did look good.


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## Derek Dean

Howdy everybody,
I haven't been able to reply to this thread for a while because my old computer was SO old that after the last CPF update I couldn't post anymore. Well, my new computer is on-line, so I'm happy to be back on CPF, and I'm gratified that so many folks are having fun using filters to modify the tints of their lights. 

I will admit, I've grown very fond of my Hi CRI modified NovaTac 120P, and the color reproduction I get with it can't quite be matched by my other filtered lights, but I still think filtering has a place in the toolkit of any serious flashlight enthusiast. I've recently filtered both my bicycle light (an old Fenix L2D) and an LED modified Maglite. Both now have wonderfully tinted beams, and all for only a few minutes of my time selecting and cutting a few filters. 

In any case, it's good to be back, and I'll look forward to reading more reports of filtering success.


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## lesliemorris85

I recently acquired some recessed LED bulbs like this http://www.illustralighting.com/4-recessed-led-1.html for my work area where I do a bit of painting as a hobby. They’re warm whites at 3000K and 83CRI, but I noticed that sometimes the color of my pigments seem off (a bit cool) as compared to when I paint during the day. Can filters solve this or do I just need to get LEDs with higher CRI/warmer WB? TIA!


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## Derek Dean

Howdy Leslie, and welcome to CPF,
Hmmmm........ 3000k is more toward the tungsten side (red-yellow biased) and 83 CRI is just average for color rendering. What you need are some daylight LEDs (5000k) with a CRI of 90 or better. Of course everybody has a different idea of "ideal" or "daylight", so some experimentation is generally in order. Some folks prefer an LED in the 4500k range....... but definitely go for a higher CRI, like 93. It really does make a difference.

Yes, you could try filters. I've got a filter on EVERY LED light I own, because I'm picky about the tint....... but I have to admit that the one light I have with a Nichia 92 CRI (4500k) LED puts out absolutely gorgeous light, and it renders colors beautifully. However, the filters only cost about $5-7 shipped, so it might be worth it just for fun. 

Another thought, you might call one of your local art stores and see what they recommend. There might be an inexpensive balaneced florescent tube that will work for your situation. 

Good luck and let us know what you end up with.


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## lesliemorris85

Derek Dean said:


> Howdy Leslie, and welcome to CPF,
> Hmmmm........ 3000k is more toward the tungsten side (red-yellow biased) and 83 CRI is just average for color rendering. What you need are some daylight LEDs (5000k) with a CRI of 90 or better. Of course everybody has a different idea of "ideal" or "daylight", so some experimentation is generally in order. Some folks prefer an LED in the 4500k range....... but definitely go for a higher CRI, like 93. It really does make a difference.
> Yes, you could try filters. I've got a filter on EVERY LED light I own, because I'm picky about the tint....... but I have to admit that the one light I have with a Nichia 92 CRI (4500k) LED puts out absolutely gorgeous light, and it renders colors beautifully. However, the filters only cost about $5-7 shipped, so it might be worth it just for fun.
> Another thought, you might call one of your local art stores and see what they recommend. There might be an inexpensive balaneced florescent tube that will work for your situation.
> Good luck and let us know what you end up with.


Hello Derek, and thanks for your reply.
I talked to a photographer friend of mine and he basically said the same thing you said –near daylight Kelvin and at least a 90 CRI. I guess that rules out filters then.
But while looking at some of those Lee filters I think I might try experimenting with them on some of my specialty lights that I use to light up art pieces (mostly wood carvings) at home. Maybe adding tints could have a more dramatic overall effect.


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## Cataract

lesliemorris85 said:


> Hello Derek, and thanks for your reply.
> I talked to a photographer friend of mine and he basically said the same thing you said –near daylight Kelvin and at least a 90 CRI. I guess that rules out filters then.
> But while looking at some of those Lee filters I think I might try experimenting with them on some of my specialty lights that I use to light up art pieces (mostly wood carvings) at home. Maybe adding tints could have a more dramatic overall effect.



I have 2 lights on which I added a filter (L0D and IFE2) Both really impressed the other local flashaholics at the last meet. That said, it is definitely not the best for painting something that will be exposed in a more natural light, but excellent for getting good overall color rendition in most cases. I can tell the yellows and greens on my father's paintings are different when I use those, but they're impressively close. 

I also wanted to suggest something (if you're into it): a painting on which the image looks different when using a different light color, maybe even hidden images.


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## lesliemorris85

Cataract said:


> I have 2 lights on which I added a filter (L0D and IFE2) Both really impressed the other local flashaholics at the last meet. That said, it is definitely not the best for painting something that will be exposed in a more natural light, but excellent for getting good overall color rendition in most cases. I can tell the yellows and greens on my father's paintings are different when I use those, but they're impressively close.
> I also wanted to suggest something (if you're into it): a painting on which the image looks different when using a different light color, maybe even hidden images.


I think you’re right, putting filters conventional LED lights just might render art pieces differently and enhance the artsy look. I’ll definitely experiment on this at home. :twothumbs
As for you suggestion, sounds interesting. I’ll discuss that with my kids since they’re the painters, lol


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## riccardo

Did a anybody try to correct a TM26?


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## Anders Hoveland

I wonder if we will eventually see retrofit LED bulbs with colored filters for residential use, much like the filtered coatings already being used to modify incandescent light bulbs (such as Chromalux and Reveal). Maybe some people just do not really like the light from LED bulbs, and by filtering it the light illuminating the room could be subjectively made more pleasant.
http://www.meijer.com/assets/product_images/styles/xlarge/1001029_046677135591_A_400.jpg


Stating the obvious again, but filters may affect the color of LED light sources differently than other types of light sources. Each type of light source tends to have its own unique frequency profile, and these frequencies will uniquely match to the frequency being absorbed in the filter. It is not just about "color".

For example, neodymium glass appaears purplish under incandescent and LED light, but appears dull bluish grey under typical fluorescent lighting. The fluorescent lamp gives off discrete frequencies, and the main yellow frequency absorbed by neodymium glass is not one of those.

So some filters may result in different types of color changes depending on the type of light source. Since this thread is about LEDs, we should note that typical white LED light has deficiencies in deep red, blue-green, and violet frequencies. So filters that absorb these frequencies might not affect the LED as much. Also, because LED has a relatively narrow blue spike, there is potential for filter frequency mis-match. A filter designed to filter out blue light (and thus appear orange) might not work as well on LEDs. If the filter is filtering out multiple frequencies, the ratio of color filtering will be off.

Specifically, many red filters may significantly reduce the efficiency of LED flashlights, since LED light actually only has a limited ammount of red frequency light, and much of the light that is being perceived by red color receptors in the eye is actually orange frequency. It would be especially difficult to really get a true red color (that is not somewhat orangish) using a filter over a regular white LED flashlight.




Cataract said:


> Interesting... phosphorous filters...


I suspect that a phoshor coating may actually be used in a certain type of incandescent bulb, in Osram-Sylvania's double-life halogen with "modified spectrum technology". There's something about the light from these bulbs that I just do not like. It's definitely not the same effect as neodymium glass. The outer bulb is a barely noticeable slightly pink color, so I think it might involve some type of phosphor rather than the usual colored filter coating. Very interesting. Presumably some of the violet and blue light (even some of the near ultraviolet being emitted by inner halogen capsule) is being converted to red light. The intended effect apparently was to try to lower the correlated color temperature, in an attempt to mimmic the feel or normal incandescent bulbs, while still getting the higher efficiency of the hoter halogen filement. I am speculating a little here, I really cannot find any information about what exactly this "modified spectrum technology" advertized on the packaging really is.

http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11216/normal_SANY3047.JPG


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## uk_caver

Anders Hoveland said:


> Maybe some people just do not really like the light from LED bulbs, and by filtering it the light illuminating the room could be subjectively made more pleasant.


Maybe some people like that should spend time checking out LEDs to find ones they do like the colour of.

In the long run, there seems likely to be a meaningful market for colour-tunable LED lights for mood lighting for normal people, though obviously that would be easier if there were some economic standard control system for such devices.



Anders Hoveland said:


> Stating the obvious again, but filters may affect the color of LED light sources differently than other types of light sources.
> [...]
> Specifically, many red filters may significantly reduce the efficiency of LED flashlights, since LED light actually only has a limited ammount of red frequency light, and much of the light that is being perceived by red color receptors in the eye is actually orange frequency. It would be especially difficult to really get a true red color (that is not somewhat orangish) using a filter over a regular white LED flashlight.


Not only is that obvious, but I think it's been adequately addressed earlier in the thread.



Anders Hoveland said:


> I suspect that a phoshor coating may actually be used in a certain type of incandescent bulb, in Osram-Sylvania's double-life halogen with "modified spectrum technology". There's something about the light from these bulbs that I just do not like. It's definitely not the same effect as neodymium glass. The outer bulb is a barely noticeable slightly pink color, so I think it might involve some type of phosphor rather than the usual colored filter coating. Very interesting. Presumably some of the violet and blue light (even some of the near ultraviolet being emitted by inner halogen capsule) is being converted to red light. The intended effect apparently was to try to lower the correlated color temperature, in an attempt to mimmic the feel or normal incandescent bulbs, while still getting the higher efficiency of the hoter halogen filement. I am speculating a little here, *I really cannot find any information about what exactly this "modified spectrum technology" advertized on the packaging really is.*


Seriously?

I just Googled 'sylvania modified spectrum' and the *first* hit was http://www.google.com/patents/US20130063016 which goes into great detail about various types of modified spectrum bulb, including what the official meaning of 'modified spectrum' is.
Research doesn't really get any easier than that.


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## Anders Hoveland

uk_caver said:


> Maybe some people like that should spend time checking out LEDs to find ones they do like the colour of.
> there seems likely to be a meaningful market for colour-tunable LED lights for mood lighting for normal people.


Filtering is not just about the overall color, it also effects the spectrum. Filters would be able to achieve spectrum changes that LED phosphors by themselves are unnable to accomplish. A combination of filters could even potentially be used to increase CRI of LED light. For example, if the spectrum needs a higher ratio of red and blue-green frequency light, more Nd:YAG phosphor could be used, and then some of the excess orange and yellow frequency could be filtered out.


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## uk_caver

Anders Hoveland said:


> Filtering is not just about the overall color, it also effects the spectrum.


Any changing of colour affects the spectrum.
It's just that with electronically tunable lights, the overall output spectrum is a linear combination of two or more LED spectra, whereas if using filters, the overall output spectrum is the overall LED output spectrum modified by multiplying it with the filter's transfer function.



Anders Hoveland said:


> Filters would be able to achieve spectrum changes that LED phosphors by themselves are unnable to accomplish. A combination of filters could even potentially be used to increase CRI of LED light.


Wouldn't any change to output colour by electronic colour tuning also be likely to have an effect on CRI, and wouldn't the effect of some changes be to increase CRI as well as having some changes reducing it?



Anders Hoveland said:


> For example, if the spectrum needs a higher ratio of red and blue-green frequency light, more Nd:YAG phosphor could be used, and then some of the excess orange and yellow frequency could be filtered out.


Assuming it was actually thought worth incorporating it as a design goal (ie it wasn't just something thought likely to appeal to an insignificant minority of real-life consumers, or some theoretical 'need' without actual supporting evidence), it would be possible to make electronically changeable LED sources with additional LEDs to boost various areas of the spectrum without necessarily compromising efficiency the way that significant filtering would.

Possibly some such devices could be useful, even if only as experimental units to see if quietly changing the extent to which gaps were filled was something which people really noticed or cared about.

Have you read the link regarding the secrets of modified spectrum technology?
I found it rather interesting.


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## bshanahan14rulz

1.4% CrSn pink, 0.2% red iron oxide


Sounds like a filter.

Also, I was under the impression that a phosphor layer on an LED was a combination of various fluorescent materials, not a single one. I think this is the way to go, rather than wasting more energy on downconverting photons just to filter them out. Although I think I am lost with regards to what we're debating here, but then again, I'm just a dancing monkey.


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## Anders Hoveland

bshanahan14rulz said:


> Also, I was under the impression that a phosphor layer on an LED was a combination of various fluorescent materials, not a single one.


It can be, but standard white LEDs just use a single phosphor, Nd:YAG. Apparently the Nd:YAG can be tweaked to emit more into the green (EQ-white), but I am not really sure how this works.



bshanahan14rulz said:


> I think this is the way to go, rather than wasting more energy on downconverting photons just to filter them out.


Ideally, yes. But in reality, there is a limited number of practical phosphors to choose from, ones that will not degrade over time under the intense light exposure.


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## uk_caver

Anders,
Have you read the patent description about the modified spectrum technology you were so interested in, and which you had been unable to find any information about?

Given the several seconds of work it took me to locate it, I'd hope you'd find it enlightening.


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## bshanahan14rulz

I think Nd doped YAG emits in the IR region. Assuming you mean Cerium. I think all the YAG does is provide a crystal with specific optical properties for the dopant ions to live in. Also, if all LEDs use one single phosphor, how do we get LEDs with a reddish tint or a greenish tint, when the phosphor only emits yellow? I would think that there would be many suitable practical phosphors to choose from based in sturdy glass or garnet. I understand that they are pumped differently, but fluorescent tubes have different phosphor "mixes," so I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that LEDs use a mixture of various fluorescent phosphors too.

Once we get LEDs efficient enough, who cares if we apply filters to "tone down" some of the spikes to make the rest of teh spectrum more noticeable? And if we can just add some new phosphors to boost the deficient parts of the spectrum, even better! I think filters are never the right solution when you are looking for efficiency of a system, but I think you are more interested in obtaining a fuller, more even spectrum spread. Sometimes you can't have cake and eat it too :-/


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## Anders Hoveland

uk_caver said:


> Have you read the patent description about the modified spectrum technology you were so interested in, and which you had been unable to find any information about?


I had already found that, but I have doubts that it is the same "modified spectrum technology". "Modified spectrum" is a very generalized term. That patent did not specifically refer to one filter type.

This reason why I suspected the bulb may have a phosphor coating inside is because, holding the bulb up to a light source, transmitted light thrugh the bulb seems to only have only a very slight pink tint, almost not noticeable. But when the bulb is actually turned on, the pink tint is much more pronounced. In contrast, a regular incandescent bulb has a more orangish tint, which I generally do not mind. The pink tint just bothers me for some reason. Strangely, the pink tint is somewhat reminiscent of the eery pinkish light from "warm white" fluorescents.

I am not sure, perhaps you are right and I am just speculating too much. It would be interesting to analyze the light with a spectrometer to try to confirm if my suspicions are correct. If there is a little spike in the spectrum, it is a phosphor, if there is a depression, it is just an ordinary filter.


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## uk_caver

Sure.
You'd found it, you'd read it, and you'd understood that 'modified spectrum' was a term relating to incandescent bulbs being tinted rather than 'coloured' and being allowed to be _less_ efficient than regular bulbs as a result of using filters.

Then you'd concluded that a particular Sylvania modified spectrum bulb might be using a phosphor _because it didn't look like neodymium-tinted bulbs and it looked pink_, whereas, on the other hand, the referenced patent which you'd already read was talking about bulbs which didn't use neodymium tinting and which instead used a coating which was likely to appear pink. Obviously quite different.

And, after all, if a phosphor was being used to boost halogen efficiency compared to using a filter, it's understandably not the kind of thing a manufacturer would try to make a big deal of (or even mention (or even patent)), given how no consumers or regulators really care about light-bulb efficiency these days.


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## bshanahan14rulz

or you could bust the bulb and pump it with various different monochromatic sources and watch for fluorescence.
Halogen bulb and a long life incan are both filament bulbs, but with very different light coming out of 'em. Perhaps there is a halogen capsule inside of the bulb, so less reds produced + blues being filtered out by the pink and red particles may create efficacy of halogen bulb with more reds of standard incan.


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## Anders Hoveland

After seeing the new Cree LED retrofit, which has a glass bulb, I got to thinking, how would it affect the light if they had used neodymium glass? Would the effect be the same as with a regular incandescent bulb? (For those of you who are familiar with Chromalux "Daylight" or GE's "Reveal" bulbs, these use neodymium glass)

Probably it would not be quite the same because LED has a different spectrum than incandescent. It could potentially be used to raise the correlated color temperature without making the blue spike bigger. Yes, it would make the LED spectrum even a little more discontinuous, but nevertheless I have a feeling it might slightly _raise_ the CRI index. Basically, the LED phosphor already has too much yellowish frequency light, and to a much lesser extent the neodymium glass also filters out a portion of the yellowish-green, so by reducing these, it would effectively increase the relative proportions of red and blue-green frequency light in the spectrum. The bandwidth of the yellow frequency being filtered out is also relatively narrow, so it would not result in too much color shift.

Something else that should be mentioned is that the _*amount*_ of filtering can make a difference. For example, with neodymium glass (at least using an incandescent source), a lesser amount of filtering results in an increase in CCT, while excessive filtering results in a _decrease_ in CCT. This is because, while the neodymium glass readily filters out the yellow, there is also some absorption elsewhere. Once all the yellow has been completely filtered out, additional filtering just starts taking away from the parts of the blue and green. So, if the filter absorbs more than one part of the spectrum, using two layers of filtering can potentially result in a very different color than just one layer. Just something interesting to consider.


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## Derek Dean

I've got to say, I'm still amazed at how many threads I read from folks who are unhappy with the tint of their lights and think there is nothing they can do about it, aside from either returning it or trying to figure out (using charts) which LED to order so they can mod it, and then hope the tint of that LED is acceptable. 

While I'll agree that a HiCRI LED will generally give the best results (I do love my Nichia 219 modded NovaTac 120P), I've found it possible to get 95% of that performance from my filtered lights, which is pretty darn good in my book. 

I use most of my lights every day (er.....every night), both on my job and bicycling home afterward, and the difference the filtering makes is HUGE. Anyway, I'd be interested to hear from those of you who have filtered your lights, what you're impressions are after having used them for a while, and if any of you have HICRI lights, how your filtered lights compare to those.


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## Cataract

^^^ +100

I just had a GT last weekend and impressed Cavannus with my filters (I already impressed the other guys last year). I agree that you can get close to 95% of a HiCRI. I just put filters on my 2 work EDCs a few weeks ago, but I only went for reasonnable color rendition rather than trying to imitate a HiCRI (didn't want to loose too much output.) The difference in depth perception is still staggering. I was looking for new EDC's because I wanted neutral, but now it can wait till I find my perfect dream EDC.


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## riccardo

@Cataract:

I just got a TM26, it's a quad-xm-l in cool white tint, but I can't really understand which dominant it has. Often it seems pretty neutral but it has the extreme part of the spill with a purplish color, the corona is a little creamy and the hotspot .. Can't really say.

Indeed the light is cold, if I use it to light a room I feel like I'm in a creepy old hospital.. under this light the yellows are changing to a lighter and brighter tonality, reds are also getting lighter and closer to orange side. Anyway these changes are not always evident, the light is quite white, the tint isn't really bad.

Anyway I'm a neutral white guy and I would warm it a bit but I'm having some troubles in getting the Lee swatchbook here where I am. I'll probably have to order some sheets of filters but I don't know which. Can you suggest some from their catalog? Should I get the high temp resistant version?


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## Derek Dean

riccardo, the wonderful, and important, thing about getting a filter swatch book is that it contains a large number of filters, many of which are close in tint, but different enough to make a difference. This is what allows us to find the tint that works for us. What might be a lovely tint for Cataract, or myself, might not be quite right for you. 

Also, there is enough variance in LED manufacturing tolerances that even LEDs on the same spool can have different tints, so it can vary greatly from light to light. I've even read reports of folks with mulit-LED lights having LEDs of different tint in the same light.

Where are you located? I believe Lee Filters has an office in the UK which serves Europe, but there are also other companies that manufacture filters who offer swatch books. 

Even for a multiple LED light you'd want to get a filter swatch book first to find just the right tint, then you could order the somewhat expensive sheet to cover the entire front. The alternative would be to order several swatch books at the same time. Each swatch is large enough for two 1 1/2 inch circles, so, once you find the right tint you could cut out 4 circles and cover just the front of the reflectors. 

One thing you could do would be to call a local theater company and see where they buy their filters from, then contact them and ask for a couple of swatch books. Or, call you local photography store and ask if they can help. 

By the way, I found the same thing with the XM-L LED in my Zebralight SC600, it has a purplish ring around the outside with a cool, green, cyanish spot. Weird. It took some time playing with the filters, but I finally found one that works well. The tint is still a bit weird around the edges, but not bad, and the beam tint in general is quite nice now.


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## riccardo

I'm living in Moscow, mails and small packets from Europe can take up to 8 weeks...!

I'll try to contact the local dealer of lee products but I'm afraid I know their reaction.


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## Derek Dean

riccardo, it's worth waiting 8 weeks for these (order 2 swatch books). Once you have them, you'll be able to dial the tint in very closely to want you like, plus, they include many different diffusion swatches. Good luck.


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## Cataract

I'm with Derek on this one; for every flashlight I picked a filter for, I ended up using a completely different filter and most often a different color. The process of choosing a filter can take a couple of hours and I am usually very surprised at what works best as it is very hard, if not impossible, to guess which color is the real dominant spike. Trial and error is definitely the only way to go since the wrong filter can make color rendition much worse.

I got my filter packs from a photography store; It cost me the same as ordering online, but I can get a new pack anytime I want and they can order sheets for me, saving me transport fees. I'd suggest you try that first as they might have better delivery times if you still have to order a sample pack. If that doesn't work, the wait is definitely worth it.


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## riccardo

well well... it's much better than what I tough.
I called a local LEE dealer here in Moscow and they told me that the swatch books are available for free, moreover the dealer is just on the way to office of one of my colleague's so tomorrow morning he'll stop there and bring me a couple of swatch books.

Watching the LEE website I've seen several filters that according to the description can do the job with my TM26. Anyway it is not clear to me if to improve the "3D" vision and reduce the "alien abduction light effect" it is better to correct the CT or just to remove the dominant (that often are complex)... of course it is a purely academic discussion since the way to go is to try and try and try playing with the swatch book but still I'm curious to understand better.

I also noticed that for each filter they provide the value of light transmitted in percent, does it apply directly to lumens value? For instance, this filter: http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/colour-details.html#249&filter=tf has a transmission of 82,5%, does it mean that with such filter the 3500 lumens of a TM26 will get to about 2900 lumens? If so than a filtered CW LED is not loosing much compared to the same LED in NW...


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## Cataract

Sounds like you have it even better than me!

I can't say precisely what effect my filters had other than the color rendition is so much better and the depth perception seems to be directly related to color rendition and warmer CT.

Yes, the transmission factor will directly be applicable to the amount of lumens. I wouldn't worry much about it, though; any increase or decrease less than 30% is pretty much imperceptible. 

NW LED's usually have about 30% less output than CW and most filters I use are close to 70% transmission rate (sometimes more, sometimes a little less, depending on what I tune the light for). In the end, it's pretty much the same as swapping the LED but for much cheaper and a lot less trouble.


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## Derek Dean

Excellent! The thing to remember, riccardo, is that the object of using these filters is to improve the tint, not necessarily correct it completely. It's tempting to try to make the tint "perfect", which usually involves a darker magenta filter, or even a combination of filters, and this can reduce the output (lumens) substantially, so, start by trying the lighter colored filters, like Rose, or even Light Rose, or 1/4 Magenta or 1/2 Magenta. 

Also, keep in mind that after playing with the filters for a while you're eyes can become fatigued, so it's good to take an occasional break. In fact, it usually takes me several days (and nights), or even a week to select the proper filter for a light. Often my first choice tends to be too much correction, and a month later I'll come back and try something with less correction and finally feel I've got it right. 

In any case, I hope you'll share your experiences with us. Have fun !


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## riccardo

Yesterday I couldn't do any test, now I'm waiting for the night to come..!

Having to correct a quad-led torch it's opening the possibility to use different filters on different emitters.. there's enough to get crazy!


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## markr6

Cataract said:


> NW LED's usually have about 30% less output than CW and most filters I use are close to 70% transmission rate (sometimes more, sometimes a little less, depending on what I tune the light for). In the end, it's pretty much the same as swapping the LED but for much cheaper and a lot less trouble.



It depends on the emitter, but I believe this is closer to 10-12% decrease for NW. And regarding filters, I really wish I kept my Olight M22 and just added a filter to warm it up. Great thrower and I loved the quality.


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## riccardo

This is my first choice:

Two emitters with 442 Half C.T. Straw (Y=71.2)
Two emitters with 162 ******* Amber (Y=77.7) + 248 Half Minus Green (y=72)

Now, on paper I should have lost a good 36% of light but anyway on the other hand the torch on level 4 (1700 lumens -36% = 1088) it is still brighter in ceiling bounce than my TorchLab L1n Triple XP-G NW that should have 1000 lumens ... so it seems that something is wrong, or I'm loosing less than 36% or the TM26 is underrated or my triple is underrated because the difference on 90 lumens on a thousand should not be very noticeable on ceiling bounce OR I'm comparing LED lumens to ANSI lumens..!

In future I'll try more combinations but I'm a little sad that I was not able to find a filter that alone can do the job neither I found a couple to be separately used on different emitters without staking them on each other.

I found several filters that used alone in different combinations on individual emitters will remove the light green cast plus would warm a little the tint but the effect was never fully satisfying, to make the browns and reds looking good like with the neutral Triple I had to stack the 162 over the 248 on two emitters.


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## Cataract

markr6 said:


> It depends on the emitter, but I believe this is closer to 10-12% decrease for NW. And regarding filters, I really wish I kept my Olight M22 and just added a filter to warm it up. Great thrower and I loved the quality.



That sounds correct... I must have been thinking of high CRI.


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## riccardo

The color rendering I got with the combination described above was exceptionally good but I found out that at closer ranges it is not good to have a beam made of 2 different tints. In facts till a couple of meters from the bezel the two components (one yellow/orange and one pinkish) are not blending enough and it is possible to distinguish a pinkish and an yellowish region of the beam.

Moreover I felt that 36% of loss was too much, the TM26 has a good throw and I didn't want to kill it. 
So I decided to use different filters, just to remove the green and to add a little of warmth without caring too much about the CRI, now on all the emitters I'm using a combination of:

279 Eight Minus Green Y = 86.5%
159 No Color Straw Y= 89.4%

With this combination the total loss should be around 23% and the CCT is just a bit warmer than unfiltered but it still noticeably cooler than my triple xp-g nw or my triple Nichia high CRI. The green seems almost gone and I don't feel like in a hospital if I'm using the TM26 to illuminate a room. This night I'll check better ..


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## Derek Dean

Thanks for reporting your progress, riccardo. That makes sense about the different filters not blending until a few meters away. It also sounds like you've found the same thing that most of us do, there is always a trade off between getting the tint "perfect" and losing light output, so the goal usually ends up being a way to find the best balance between the two. 

Of course, that's one of nice things about the swatch book, it allows us to easily try many different combinations.


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## riccardo

This is my last (I believe) attempt to adjust the filters on my TM26. As some of you has rightfully pointed out in this 3d, it is easy to over-filter at the beginning but anyway, after some time, it is also common to roll back and stabilize into a much lighter solution.

So I did.

Now I decided to remain with just a 249 Quarter minus green (Y=82,4) on all the emitters. It correct completely the slight greenish cast leaving an almost pure white light with a somehow high CCT. I finally understood that it is pointless to try to emulate a NW LED starting from a CW one since it will require a stronger filtering with a loss of -at least- a good 30% (but perfection is around -40% at least). It might be still good on an EDC where the raw power is not a strong requirement but has less sense on a monster like the TM26 where size and weigh have to be balanced by performance.

So, finally I got what I wanted since the very beginning: if I use the TM26 to illuminate a room by ceiling bounce I don't have that unpleasant sensation like "alien abduction" or creepy old waiting room of hospital. The light is quite neutral in tint but cool in temperature, the perceived sensation is not so cozy like with NW or WW but still not unpleasant at all. The whites are rendered whites and all colors appear to be pretty realistic with just a small lack in rendering certain browns. I had no occasion yet to bring the light in a wood but the tip of trees that I have close to my apartment's windows doesn't look bad.

So far so good.. with just a single layer of a light filter and a mere -17,6% in light output it's hard to perceive any decrease in illumination power and the Tiny Monster it is still a monster...!

Thank you for this 3d and the support.
:wave:


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## Cataract

Glad to see you're getting satisfying results. 

Looking back at my filtered lights, I do notice that you do not necessarily get a nice creamy white-wall tint with a filter that will give you a good color rendition for a specific light. My IFE2 does look a little greenish on a white wall, but for everything else, it is as good as any high CRI LED.


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## Derek Dean

Well, it's been a while since I posted in this thread, so I thought an update was due. I'm still finding filters to be the best, easiest, and least expensive way to get a nice tint for all my LED flashlights. 

My most recent purchase was a ZL SC600w Mk 1(with the bezel that unscrews), which I picked up on the Market Place. This was my first time trying to filter a warm LED, and I must admit the results were very gratifying, with much improved color rendition compared to my original SC600 with the cool white LED. I had originally purchased the SC600w with the intention of sending it off for a triple Nichia 219 mod, but I liked it's filtered color rendition so much that I ended keeping it and sending off my original SC600 (with the cool white LED) instead. 

By the way, I found the best filter combo for the warm version LED to be a 1/2 minus green *PLUS* a Light Lavender. The combo of those two filters left me with a nice, slightly creamy tint, just barely still on the warm side, but with really excellent color rendition. 

As always, there is a slight loss of overall output, but for me the resulting tint is easily worth that small loss. Of course, the warm version LEDs generally suffer from a slightly decreased output from their cool white counterparts (in the same model), so coupled with the loss of output from filtering, that means I'm getting even slightly less output, but again, I only use my lights in closeup situations (5-30 feet), and never on high output, so it's not something that bothers me. 

As soon as I get my triple Nichia 219 modded SC600, I'll post a comparison photo between it and my filtered SC600w. That should be interesting


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## Got Lumens?

Really cool Dean!
Look forward to seeing your comparison.

Anyone try filtering a Nichia 219A?
I have several small lights with this emitter, they are totally awesome HCRI, but do not know exactly which tint bin they are, or which filters to try and get a little tiny bit warmer(closer to white in my eyes).

This thread is should be a much welcomed one to those that want better tints from their lights 

GL


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## Derek Dean

GL,
I've got to two Nichia 219A lights (one single and one triple), and both required a magenta filter, or to be more precise, a minus green filter, since in reality we are subtracting rather than adding light. I think both got a 1/8 minus green, which was enough to just take the edge off the greenish tint that I seem to find in most LED lights. 

But, as we've said all along in this thread, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it might take more or less according to YOUR taste, which is, after all, the beauty of using filters.


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## Got Lumens?

Thanks Derek.
Probably the best way is to shine the lights through a few different shades from the swatch books before cutting the filters to fit the bezels. I will give it a try, and respond back within a few weeks.
Take Care
GL


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## Cataract

I bought 2 swatch books; one that has both numbering systems (was the last in the store) and one for cutting out of. I know, I even have a shelf queen swatch book...


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## Got Lumens?

Cataract said:


> I bought 2 swatch books; one that has both numbering systems (was the last in the store) and one for cutting out of. I know, I even have a shelf queen swatch book...


:hahaha: Shelf Queen Swatch . . .
Unicorn protected? Of course.

The Numbered books make it much easier to look up a particular #'ed shade your looking for.
Jealous, I only have 2 of standard swatch books. 
GL


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## Cataract

I missed your reply...
It was a fluke, though. I just bought them from the local camera shop without paying attention. Unicorn protected of course, he can't take his eyes off the purty colors!


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## Got Lumens?

Cataract said:


> I missed your reply...
> It was a fluke, though. I just bought them from the local camera shop without paying attention. Unicorn protected of course, he can't take his eyes off the purty colors!


Me too! 
Uni is just jealous because he/she(testing inconclusive) can't get the correct shade of safety goggles for the tunnels. Get Uni some goggles that work with the swatch sized filters, or provide Uni a light to use them with. 
Experimenting with filters is easy once you know the correct tints of filters to try. Hope to hear what you have tried. It helps us all hearing about each others experiences.
GL


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## Cataract

Got Lumens? said:


> Me too!
> Uni is just jealous because he/she(testing inconclusive) can't get the correct shade of safety goggles for the tunnels. Get Uni some goggles that work with the swatch sized filters, or provide Uni a light to use them with.
> Experimenting with filters is easy once you know the correct tints of filters to try. Hope to hear what you have tried. It helps us all hearing about each others experiences.
> GL



Darn tunnel lag... if I get Uni goggles, I'll need one sheet of each swatch book (big eyes on the sides of the head and all...) Dark blue should work best for him due to blueish LED tint shifting into the UV spectrum and welder's goggles are too dark.

I'm mostly towards orange/amber and pinkish filters to correct older Fenix XPE-R2 blueish (#182 206 Quarter C.T. Orange) and Quark XPG-R4 greenish (#91 154 Pale Rose) since those are my work lights. Those filters have fallen off from use and are in need of replacement at the moment, just too busy with other stuff.

I haven't bought a light other than MBI in over a year now and my latest favorites are all neutral or high CRI (including 2 MBI HF heads). The rest of my lights are there for fun or just plain emergencies (living room side table, kitchen drawer/pantry, over the washer and car). I do have a Nitecore IFE2 on my night stand with a #164 filter on it. Sorry, I didn't put the name description of it in my excel file... the joy of having both books makes that useless


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## Richwouldnt

BUMP!

IMO a VERY interesting thread that to my mind should be made a Sticky, preferably in the LED Flashlights forum as that is the largest forum and most visited.


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## elsayedhussin

Does anyone know of a UK supplier of these filters ?


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## lebox97

was in first post?
http://www.leefilters.com (is a UK Company)
https://leefilters.uservoice.com/knowledgebase/articles/75181-where-can-i-get-a-swatch

Cheers




elsayedhussin said:


> Does anyone know of a UK supplier of these filters ?


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## Derek Dean

http://www.rosco.com/UK/sbreqs/index.cfm


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## KITROBASKIN

Hey Derek, 
I plan on going to a lighting place that has the Lee filters tomorrow. Would you recommend I get, in addition to the free sample book, a quarter minus green, 1/8 minus green, 1/4 straw, or what do you think? I plan on using it on cool XML's (Nitecore TM26) and dedomed (warm) XPL triple drop in.


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## Derek Dean

Richard,
My absolutely most used filter for my cool tinted LED lights has been 1/8 minus green, with my 2nd most used being 1/4 minus green. I've also used combinations of those to make 3/8 minus green for several lights. If I could only pick one sheet to buy, it would be 1/8 minus green, because of course you can add two of those together to make 1/4 minus green, etc. 

My last three lights (not including, "My Precious") have been warm XM-L versions, mainly because they are starting with a higher CRI warm LED, and I've found the resulting filtered light to be a bit nicer than starting with a cool LED. For those warm lights, I've found I needed a combo of Lavender and 1/8 minus green, or sometimes as much as Lavender and 1/4 minus green. The lavender tends to help tame the overly warm character of the LEDs that ZL has been getting lately, while the 1/8 minus green helps with that hint of green that (as you well know) drives me crazy. 

I will say though, I think those individual sheets tend to be a bit pricey, so you might want to start with the swatch book and see which filters work best for YOU. As we've seen in this thread, it's an incredibly personal choice, which is why I LOVE the swatch books. 

It's also phenomenally important to take take into consideration the color of the light that your eyes have been exposed to just BEFORE you try filtering any particular light. For instance, since changing all the light bulbs in my apartment to the warm white CREE LED light bulbs (2700K), I've noticed that many of my previously filtered lights tend to now look a bit green when I'm using them in my apartment, which is because the overly reddish light from the constant warm white CREE LED bulbs has been working on my eyes, which now are red biased, making even a neutral tint LED look green. Of course those same lights look great outside in the dark. 

Same thing happens if I've been on the computer for a while, or watching TV on my Plasma set. My eyes become accustomed to the color of THAT light, so my white balance is shifted and I have to "reset" my eyes before attempting to filter a new flashlight. 

The main way I do it now is to compare the flashlight I'm going to filter with a previously filtered flashlight that I've used out in the world for several years and I know that I like that tint. With all the room lights off, I shine both on a white wall, typically at a lower level (because for non PWM lights the color of the light tends to shift as the light level gets lower), and then try to match the new light to the old light. 

After I've gotten close and added a filter to the new light, I'll use it at work for a few nights and see if I've gone to far, or not far enough, and adjust accordingly. This whole process typically takes me a week or so, generally because I almost always go to far to start with and end up having to dial my filtration back a bit.

I'll look forward to hearing about your experiences with the new filters. Good luck.
Derek


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## KITROBASKIN

Well, I had to wait for Security to give me clearance, (They asked what movie I was working on) in order to drive through the movie lot in Albuquerque to get to New Mexico Lighting and Grip, but it was worth it. The nice person there gave me the LEE Filters Numeric Edition and Designers Edition sample filter books. He also gave me the Diffusion Edition book and an even bigger sample book from a company called COTECH Lighting Filters. What fun possibilities.


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## KITROBASKIN

OK, the 003 lavender tint is astonishing with the (originally domed neutral) XPL triple dedomed P60 dropin. The filters I got had been sitting in a warehouse and accumulated a lot of dust. The loss of lumens is significant. What is shocking is that my wife prefers the warm tint without a filter.

The 1/4 minus green was very nice with the NiteCore P12's XML2 T6 coolish tint.

Derek, Thanks for steering us this way. You saved me a lot of time. I've still got some experimenting to do...


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## Derek Dean

Hey Richard, I'm glad you found the information useful. I think I should re-title this thread, "Fun with Filters", because I really do have fun playing with them and taking some old ugly tinted light and transforming it into a real beauty. 

Gee, I'll bet that was fun going to the movie lot. To be honest, I'm surprised they let you in. By the way, if those filters are really that dirty, they can be cleaned by carefully and gently washing them in warm soapy water, then gently dabbing dry (not rubbing) with a clean cotton T-shirt. 

However, when I'm cutting filters and fitting them on lights, I use the special cleaning fluid and special lint free scratch free tissues that I use to clean my glasses (which aren't really glass, but some type of polycarbonate plastic stuff). The filters get all fingerprinted up when I'm cutting them to size, but a spritz of the special fluid and a little gentle rubbing with the special tissues cleans it right up.

Oh, that's interesting that your wife likes the non-tinted version. Sounds like it's time for her to have her own light, although I'll bet you've already taken care of that .


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## Got Lumens?

Derek,
I have had the eye adjustment problem before as well. I have found that spending a couple of minutes in a dark room with just a lit candle resets my color balance. I use the bathroom as it's a small room illuminated more.
GL


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## KITROBASKIN

Took the Premium Dedome Tint Neutral P60 dropin out tonight with a 003 lavender tint, and a triple dedome XPL (originally neutral?) dropin with a half minus green filter. That kept the triple plenty warm for my wife, but improved the brown soil rendering quite a bit. The filtered PDTn looked just like my 3 amp, XML2 T6 3C! Pretty Amazing. The lower levels looked just as good. Since I also have another PDTn in another host, I was able to do a direct comparison. The throw is reduced, yes. The improvement in tint is substantial.


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## SubLGT

Derek Dean said:


> ……………..On lights that I can't remove the bezel, I simply place the light, bezel down, on the filter and trace around it and cut it out, then taking my time, I'll begin trimming it until it fits down into the bezel area on top of the glass cover. Then I'll attach it using a reversible glue stick, and have found that it stays in place great. ………………….



How well does glue stick or double sided tape stand up to heat? How well do the filters stand up to heat? As you know, flashlight heads can get pretty hot when you are pumping out 950 lumens on a small light like a SC62.


----------



## Derek Dean

Howdy SubLGT,
Good questions. First, remember that these swatches are cut from large sheets of actual filter material used by theatrical and film lighting crews, who use it on lights much hotter than our flashlights, so it stands up quite well to heat. However, we are typically using it closer to the emitter than it was originally intended, so, it just takes some common sense and a bit of trail and error to find out if it will work for YOUR situation. 

I rarely use my SC62 on turbo, and if I do it's generally for only short periods, and so far I've had no problem with either the filters or the Scotch double sided tape. 

My thought has always been that this is fairly inexpensive accessory, and for the small price paid the potential benefits make it a no-brainer.


----------



## SubLGT

I am getting ready to buy a swatch book (and some other stuff) from B&H Photo. They have the Rosco Roscolux swatch book and the Rosco Cinegel swatch book. Should I get both (under $6), or is just one of them adequate?


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## Hondo

For the price, I would get as many options as you can.

I want to add the latest link for the Lee filter swatch book, as I don't know how to find it via the main Lee page:

http://shop.leefiltersusa.com/Swatch-Book-Designers-Edition-SWB.htm

I can confirm that this works, as I just received two more swatch books from them. These are the only ones I have tried, but I have never failed to find a tint that I like with this book.


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## Tapis

I used to rent camera and light equipment from William White in Toronto, Canada, and they were given these Rosco swatch books for free as promotion material for cinematographers. There was always a big box of them in the entrance hall and you could take as many as you want. I don't know if this is still the case, but you people can check with your local motion picture rental stores. I would be surprised if they would charge for them.


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## Derek Dean

SubLGT, yes, as Hondo suggests, get as many as you can afford. They are only 3" x 1.5", which is enough for several small lights, but you'll find that you tend to use the same color over and over. For me that's Green -1/8 (which is a light magenta colored filter) and Green -1/4. Plus, the different books have different kinds of diffusion material which can be fun to play with as well, letting you make a great flood beam if you want. 

Hondo, thanks for that link...... I thought LEE had stopped selling those as I couldn't find it anywhere on their site. Good find. 

Tapis, yes, we've had reports from other members that they've gotten these for free at certain photo stores, so that's a great place to try. Thanks for reminding me.


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## KITROBASKIN

The LEE Filter catalogs I was given state that the Master Edition and Venetian Edition swatch books are the only ones that are not available free of charge. The Master Edition is "a very large format swatch of lighting products" while the Venetian is a collapsible poster with slats, allowing tints to be viewed simultaneously.

The Cinematographer's edition, a free swatch book that has a larger sized swatch (twice the width) with the more frequently used color correction filters and diffusion filters used in film. Get that book if you can.

The COTECH filters swatch book has different names for the tints but also has the basics (the filters we use). They are the same size as the standard LEE Filter swatch books.

Been using my filtered lights with satisfaction, for sure.


----------



## SubLGT

Derek Dean said:


> ………………...First, you will need a sharp pair of scissors. I'm too clumsy to use as knife, as I'd just end up cutting myself.
> 
> After you've picked out the filter, simply place the flashlight bezel down on the filter and using a pen, draw a circle around the outside of the bezel onto to the filter, then cut out a small square that contains that circle.
> 
> What you do next will depend on whether you're going to mount the filter inside or outside of the front cover.
> 
> Of course inside is the best choice if possible, and if you do that, then it's easy to simply take off the front cover and lay it on the filter and draw another circle around the cover. Then, taking your time, start slowly trimming away that excess filter until you just have the part with the pen drawn circle.
> 
> The way you trim, is to hold the filter in one hand and make a straight cut with your scissors all the way across the filter just to the edge where the line is, then you rotate the filter a bit and make another straight cut just to the edge. Each time you make a cut, it only gets just down to the edge where the line is, so you need to do this rotate and cut thing about 20 times to get a rough circle, rotating it just a tiny bit each time.
> 
> Think of it like this. Draw a circle on a piece of paper, then using a ruler, draw a straight line on the paper that touches the outer edge of the circle. Then turn the ruler a bit and draw another straight line that just touches the edge of the circle. Keep doing that until you've touched all the edges of the circle with a straight line.
> 
> That's what you are doing with these cuts. You are slowly cutting out the circle using straight cuts that each time only barely touch the edge, and after enough of those you will have a rough circle. Then it's just a matter of *SLOWLY *smoothing it out and adjusting the size.
> 
> It's not hard, because your cuts are straight, and after the first time around it looks really rough, with all these little points sticking out, and you'll still be able to see the circular line you've drawn, so it's probably still a bit to big.
> 
> Now, place the filter on the glass cover and squeeze at the edges. If the filter is to big, it will buckle a bit. So, keep *SLOWLY *trimming, making straight cuts and rotating, but smaller and more precise now, making the circle smoother as you go, and stop every 2 or 3 cuts and put it on the glass again and see if it buckles when you squeeze the edges.
> 
> Finally, you'll get it where it fits on the glass just right, then clean both the filter and the glass, but remember, this is a coated glass and needs to be cleaned VERY carefully to not mar the anti-reflective coating. I use the special tissues and cleaner for my glasses and it works well.
> 
> Then re-assemble and your done.
> 
> If you're mounting it on the outside, it's basically the same procedure, but you just have to take it a little slower, and check the fit more often, and at some point it will just fit down inside the bezel and not come back up. I've done 3 lights that way, and while it wasn't hard, it did take me about 30 minutes of patiently and carefully sitting there and slowly trimming and then checking, and then a tiny bit more trimming and then checking, but I never had one that didn't fit perfectly in the end.
> 
> * So, the key is a pair of sharp scissors, and patience.* I put on some nice jazz while I'm doing it and make sure I'm not in a hurry. Also, make sure your work area is clean, and I laid down a white T-shirt to make it easier to see when I dropped the tiny filter, which I did a few times.
> 
> It really is worth the effort, and if you have a few mistakes, then keep trying. Even though I've done this quite a few times now, it still takes about 30 minutes for me to slowly and carefully trim these.
> 
> I hope this helps .



DD, have you found it beneficial to use scissors with curved blades, rather than straight blades?


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## Derek Dean

SubLGT said:


> DD, have you found it beneficial to use scissors with curved blades, rather than straight blades?


I've never used scissors with curved blades so I can't give a comparison, but hey, this isn't brain surgery . The main thing is patience.... the ability to actually enjoy the task, just taking it slow and doing a few cuts, then putting it on the flashlight to see how much more needs to get cut off, then making a few more cuts etc. 

That, and realizing that all we're trying to do here is provide an improvement, not necessarily make it "perfect". Add the least amount of filtration you can get away with to make the tint acceptable. That way you don't cut down the light output too much. 

Hey KITROBASKIN, great information on the Cinematographers Edition of the LEE swatch books, thanks!~


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## Martin L

Derek Dean. Thanks alot for all the help that you provide us with. You´re a kind fellow and has alot of "know how" in the filter business .

I recently bought a SC52d and are pleased with most of the tint, but there are one thing that I would like to change, if possible. Change that cold, bluish spill to something warmer and leave the corona and hot spot as it is. This spill is distracting me... Its not a bad thing if the corona and hot spot will become a little bit warmer though... My main goal is to get a more even tint from spill to hot spot. So, is this possible to mainly play with the color of the spill, you think?

My hope is also to squeeze in the future filter right between the bezel and glass and hopefully have it stayed there as the bezel is not removable on the SC52...


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## Derek Dean

Howdy Martin. After all the help I've gotten on CPF, it's nice to be able give a little back . 

Yes, I understand what you want to do, and I've even gone so far as trying to cut the filters in such a way as to only affect one part of the beam, but I haven't had any success with that, so I came to the conclusion that the part of the beam that bothers ME the most, is any off color in the spot, and I try to correct for that, letting the spill go where it goes. 

For my first ZL SC600, that meant putting a -1/8 green filter on, which got rid of most of the green in the spot, but tended to leave the spill still a little cool. After using it like that for a while I found it to be quite acceptable. But, that's me. You'll have to figure out what's important to you, and I would certainly encourage you to play around with the filters and see if you can come up with some kind of two tone solution that I didn't see. Cutting up the filters and trying different ideas is fun. 

As far as squeezing the filter in between the bezel and glass to keep it in place, I've done that on several flashlights that didn't have a removable bezel, so it's quite possible, but it requires quite a bit more patience and time to get EXACTLY the right fit. What you want, is a filter that is just a tiny bit larger than the area you visually see on the front glass cover, and it's that tiny extra little bit that would slide in between the bezel and glass on the edge to keep the filter in place. I did that with my Fenix LD01, and it's been on my keyring for several years without dislodging or getting scratched up. 

On the other hand, I tried that same technique with my two most recent Zebralights and had no success at all, so I just ended up using some double sided scotch tape to hold the filter on, and to be honest I can't see it in actual use, so just keep in mind that you do have a viable alternative for placing the filter on the front cover. 

In any case, I highly recommend you get a set of filters and start playing. If you go into it with the idea that all you're trying to do is make a slight improvement in the tint, not necessarily make perfect, then I think you'll be pretty happy with the results. 

Good luck, and let us know how it works out for you.


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## Martin L

Thank you for your kind answer. I have contacted Rosco and I will order a set. I will start with the Roscolux swatch book and it will be fun to begin with the hunt. I guess you can change all of the tint from neutral towards warmer as the overall out put lean to the cool side of my 52d? The 52d is a bit cooler than my PD32UE with a stated 5000K. If I can´t get the 52d to sing I will probably get a 52c if possible. Or a 52w and prepare for the puke green  Anybody know if ZL will release the 52c in the near future? Sorry that I´m not on topic...


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## SubLGT

Derek Dean said:


> …………….On the other hand, I tried that same technique with my two most recent Zebralights and had no success at all, so I just ended up using some double sided scotch tape to hold the filter on, and to be honest I can't see it in actual use, so just keep in mind that you do have a viable alternative for placing the filter on the front cover……………….



I wonder if applying three or four tiny drops of glue to the filter and bezel, after putting the filter into position, would work to create a more secure bond. The one problem I can forsee is that the glue might cast a shadow if too large a drop is applied. OTOH, if it works, it eliminates the light loss that comes with the scotch tape.


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## SemiMan

Norland optical epoxy


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## Derek Dean

Re: Changing LED Tint With Filters 
Yes, I'm sure the tape does cause a bit of light loss, and yes, depending on how you get it situated, it can cause a slight shadow at the edge of the tape. For my real world use it hasn't bothered me, and the trade off of having a nice tint is well worth it for me. AND, it's easily reversible, which is important because often the first filters I put on tend to be a bit heavy handed, so I end up taking them off and going with a lighter filter instead, and it's nice to be able to quickly and easily do that. 

However, having said that, once you have the filters on that you're sure you'll like, it might be a better permanent solution to try the glue, but I'd try the tape first and see how you like it. It's been working great for me.​


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## Hondo

SubLGT said:


> I wonder if applying three or four tiny drops of glue to the filter and bezel, after putting the filter into position, would work to create a more secure bond. The one problem I can forsee is that the glue might cast a shadow if too large a drop is applied. OTOH, if it works, it eliminates the light loss that comes with the scotch tape.



Not sure if you follow how Derek and I are using the Scotch double stick tape. We don't put it over the whole filter disc, just a couple of tiny strips, in my case the size of a grain of rice, at the edge of the filter. I can't see it at all in the beam, and there is no loss associated with this.


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## SubLGT

Hondo, thanks for the clarification. I did think the tape was over the entire lens.


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## KITROBASKIN

About three days ago, I committed a 'crime against nature' by putting a minus one eighth green filter on a full-blown thrower: the SkyLumen SL-1 with an XML2 dedomed 'neutral' LED. The LEE Filter Cinematographer's edition has a big enough swatch to cover the almost 2 and 1/2 inch sized reflector. Looking at a white wall, the spill and hotspot are beautiful. The corona still has some green but in the field and forest, it is very nice. I'm still oscillating with regards to the cost/benefit ratio regarding the small loss of actual throw versus the advantage of improved tint at distance. And in our semi-arid landscape, with so much bare soil and rock visible, it does not render the brown colors nearly as well as the Luxeon T LED in the ZebraLight SC62d. But it is good enough, so as not to be too distracting; And much better than what it was.

The 003 Lilac Tint on my XML2 dedomed 'neutral' P60 dropin continues to be a pleasure, while the one half minus green on the very warm triple dedomed XPL is used regularly as well. I have not used tape to attach the filter since I put it inside the lens and cut it so that it is larger than the outer rim of the reflector yet still fits in the bezel/head.

Now if we could just convince flashlightlens.com, or someone else, to incorporate these tints into the anti-reflective coating on the actual glass lenses of our flashlights. No doubt the technology is there, but can anyone make money off of it? I have to believe the surface of these filters are reflecting a lot of light and responsible for much of the loss of output. As well, the minor scratches on the filter surfaces don't help the situation. Oh well, a fellow can dream.


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## SubLGT

I have received my Rosco filter swatches from B&H. I am going to start with a Luma Power Strive, because it has a removable bezel. The cool white XML2 has a white hotspot surrounded by a yellow/green corona, which in turn is surrounded by a violet spill. :sick2:


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## Derek Dean

Howdy SubGT, yep, those darn XM-L LEDS with their multi-color beams. You might try a 1/8 minus green filter to start (it's a light magenta filter). I tend to filter for the hotspot and it's corona, and then let the spill go where it wants, but hey, there are lots of filters in that swatch book, so have fun and try a bunch. 

Be sure and let your eyes "rest" a while during your session. Just get away from it and let them reset to normal, then go back to it. 

Have fun!~


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## goldenlight

This sounds VERY promising. Like everyone else, I have some lights that have a tint I don't care for. I am looking forward to trying out these filters.


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## KITROBASKIN

Brief Update:
Continue to use minus one half green on triple dedomed XPL mule P60 host. Removed lilac tint from XML2 dedomed P60 host because the throw was marginal for our terrain, even before filtering, BUT put in a quarter minus green instead of the minus one eighth green into the Sky Lumen SL-1 and That did the trick. It had more than enough throw before filtering. Now that torch still has an abundance of throw and is truly compatible with the ZebraLight SC62d (and really even the nailbender triple Nichia 219B 5000K dropin).

Now, the question I ask of Derek Dean:
You reported recently that you put a filter on your custom triple Nichia ZebraLight. What filter, pray tell, did you install?


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## Derek Dean

KITROBASKIN said:


> Now, the question I ask of Derek Dean:
> You reported recently that you put a filter on your custom triple Nichia ZebraLight. What filter, pray tell, did you install?


My custom SC600 triple Nichia 219 has a quarter minus green filter, same as the triple Nichia 219 EDC+ drop-in that I've got in a Solarforce L2P host. 

Both of those started off being just a tiny bit green/yellow, not bad enough to bother anybody but me, but now they both appear virtually pure white, with no tint at all. I do love my filters. 

I'm glad to hear you've been having some success as well. Sometimes, after filtering a light, it takes living with it a week or two to realize that it's not quite right. Fortunately, it's easy to go back and revise the filtration a bit this way or that. I've done that MANY times.


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## Anders Hoveland

Anders Hoveland said:


> After seeing the new Cree LED retrofit, which has a glass bulb, I got to thinking, how would it affect the light if they had used neodymium glass?
> (For those of you who are familiar with Chromalux "Daylight" or GE's "Reveal" bulbs, these are incandescent bulbs which use neodymium glass)


Looking back, it's interesting to note that Cree actually put the idea I originally mentioned into practice with their Cree TW series. 
Filtering the LED spectrum through neodymium glass helps break the yellowish wavelength distribution hump apart, increasing distinction between red/green color rendering (TW series rated at 93 cri).

On another topic, I bought some 10w Chinese LEDs which were sold as 490nm. They were actually just a normal 490-495nm (cyan) LED covered with a bluish transparent sticky plastic film! So cheap, and typical of what one might expect of unscrupulous Chinese vendors. The covering did make the light a _little _more bluish, but the overall color was still much more greenish than what 490nm wavelength light actually should look like. (in this particular region of the spectrum, even a small difference in wavelength can result in a very significant color difference, blue transitions to greenish cyan quite rapidly).

In general, the wavelength distribution (though narrow) emitted from an LED tends to fall off much faster towards decreasing wavelengths, and stretch out further towards increasing wavelengths, so a filter might be more effective at shifting a greenish-blue LED towards bluish-green/cyan than_ vice versa_.


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## Derek Dean

Anders, thanks for mentioning the Cree TW series. I wasn't aware of those, and I like the idea of the higher CRI rating, while keeping the same 2700 warm color temperature, which I really enjoy with my current Cree LED bulbs. 

I'm going to have to check those out. A bit more pricey, but I'll be interested to see how much of a difference it makes compared to the first generation Cree LED bulbs I'm currently using.


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## Limey Johnson

For those having issues with securely adhering their lee filters to a lens...

I just filtered my Olight M2X UT Javelot with a #249, 1/4 minus green.

I'm a draftsman with access to laser cutting equipment, so I was able to draw/laser a template for my filter.

Assuming you have cut an accurate circle, all you need to do is be sure your lens is clean...saturate your filter with glass cleaner. Set it in at one edge, and "bend" the filter into place. Then squeegie out the glass cleaner with a business card and paper towel. viola!! no air pockets. 


Sent from my iPod touch using Candlepowerforums


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## Got Lumens?

Plus One
:thanks:


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## Cataract

Will definitely try that next filter I cut out!


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## Anders Hoveland

I just got some 3000K LED landscape spotlights and they came with optional "moonlight" lens filters. Installing the lens filters raises the color temperature to about 4200K. But that is not the filter's only effect on the quality of light. Like most LED lighting, the spotlights seem to have a slightly magenta-pinkish tint, but with the filter the color tint is improved. Not only this, but the light feels different, it feels less like LED. I looked at the light through a diffraction grating, and with the moonlight filter I can see there is less of a gap between the green and blue in the spectrum. I think the filter also slightly improves color rendering as well.

Really, if you were walking by these spotlights, it would make you wonder what type of lighting they were. 
Normally I am fairly good at telling whether the light is halogen, LED, or fluorescent just be looking at the light and how it feels, even if it is behind a diffuser, but the light through this moonlight filter lens does not really seem like any one of these. The light definitely feels softer than regular LED light.

It would be interesting to look at a spectral transmission graph of these filters, but unfortunately I do not have the equipment.


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## Got Lumens?

There is a way for you. If You Google spectrum analyzer, there is a way to make a home made one using a CD Rom. While it is not an exact measurement of the spectrum's like your wanting, it does provide you with a simple tool to compare the different spectrum anomalies of the different lights and any filters used. It allows you to graph/record the different spectrum's between compared output mediums and any filters used. You will still need to describe the outputs as You have, and You will have additional data to report along with your observations of them.
Take Care
GL


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## markr6

I was talking with Derek earlier via PM about filters. I'm not real big on having a filter attached to a lens on the outside, which is all you can do with Zebralights. While I am happy with the tints on them, my new SC62w is a little green/yellow, but only in comparison with others. No, I'm not complaining again as usual 

But I just had the crazy idea of coloring the lens with a pink hi-liter marker!! I know, it sounds crazy but hear me out!!

I figured there was about a 95% chance of this doing absolutely nothing. Well, I was SO WRONG!

You can't really see the marking, even in person. It just barely shows up as an orange-ish film on the lens. And you can't see it at all while the light is off.







OK, now for the results. Many of you probably remember seeing me praise the tint on my new SC5w OP as being the best of the best. Well, it is. BUT, check this out!!!

The SC62w WITH hi-liter marker on the lens is SO GOOD it even makes the SC5w OP appear greenish!!






Pretty darn amazing!! The only caveat? It will simply rub off the lens even after drying. I tried "cooking" it on by running it on high, but it just dries up and rubs off with my finger. I expected that, though.

Oh well, a fun experiment. I guess I could get some (very) transparent tape and put that over the lens.

*Continued here.*.. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Changing-tint-with-DIY-quot-tape-quot-filter


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## Derek Dean

Well, I believe that's a first, Mark. What a great idea!!! Yes, I think putting a piece of very clear tape over it would be perfect. That's what I call thinking out of the box. Bravo!


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## qualia

Filtering the LED spectrum through neodymium glass helps break the yellowish wavelength distribution hump apart, increasing distinction between red/green color rendering (TW series rated at 93 cri). YES 93 OR 95


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## markr6

Derek Dean said:


> Well, I believe that's a first, Mark. What a great idea!!! Yes, I think putting a piece of very clear tape over it would be perfect. That's what I call thinking out of the box. Bravo!



It's working great! I made a new thread to keep things organized: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Changing-tint-with-DIY-quot-tape-quot-filter


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## Timo5150

Wow great info thanks. I guess its time to start playing with filters.


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## KITROBASKIN

Oh man! I put (I think, came off a previous project) a 1/2 minus green LEE Filter on a Nitecore EC4S (the one with the drab, cool XHP50) and now it is so pleasant and interesting. Makes all my 5000K XP-L Hi flashlights look yellow. Our soil is a challenging test for color fidelity, as well as our two light furred dogs. Just a bang-up job on them. Yes the outer spill ring has a light magenta, but it's like walking around with beautiful sunset light on a stick! Funny as all get out. Even makes my triple Nichia 219B ~5000K dropin from Nailbender look yellowish when compared directly. A once neglected flashlight gets a second chance.


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## Derek Dean

I still find it amazing how such a slight change as 1/2 minus green can have such a big effect on a light. All my lights are filtered, and they all look a bit different when compared to each other, but when used singly, which is typically how I'll use them, they all look very near perfect. Love my filters : )


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## ma tumba

I have hated the process of cutting circular color filters. As well as circular dc-fix filters. Even when I could extract the front lens and use it as a template, I was unhappy with the result. Until I found this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BK7NWC/?tag=cpf0b6-20

Perfect circles with radii from 4.5mm to 75mm .

Go buy it!


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## ssanasisredna

ma tumba said:


> I have hated the process of cutting circular color filters. As well as circular dc-fix filters. Even when I could extract the front lens and use it as a template, I was unhappy with the result. Until I found this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BK7NWC/?tag=cpf0b6-20
> 
> Perfect circles with radii from 4.5mm to 75mm .
> 
> Go buy it!



It's a lot more money, but this has been a great investment: http://shadowhobby.com/tlcc-000-thinnerline-circle-cutter.html


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## markr6

Cool stuff! I have a 20x24 sheet of 1/8 minus green which is pretty amazing. I would get one of these cutters to make things easier but there's just no solid way to attach them. Glue and tape isn't for me.


----------



## Got Lumens?

markr6 said:


> Cool stuff! I have a 20x24 sheet of 1/8 minus green which is pretty amazing. I would get one of these cutters to make things easier but there's just no solid way to attach them. Glue and tape isn't for me.


What have You tried, and which light did You try it with? 
Most us only have access to tiny swatch books and envy You having a big sheet 

I don't recall ever using glue on any of my lights, and I agree that might affect a lens coating. I have always had a difficult time cutting the film in an even circle however. My instrument of destruction has always been cable shears with their micro serrated edges. I've applied them static bound, held in by bezel rings, and squeegeed in place using a drop of soapy water.


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## markr6

On lights with a removable bezel/lens, I just put it underneath. It was nice and protected with no chance to fall off. Unfortunately I don't have so many lights like that anymore. The lights I do are already a good enough tint.

I also tried the double sided scotch tape, but that got messy after the light heated up to a certain point. Also a decent loss of light after that not-so-transparent tape was added. It was too weak anyway, getting messed up after putting into a pocket or bag.


----------



## Got Lumens?

markr6 said:


> On lights with a removable bezel/lens, I just put it underneath. It was nice and protected with no chance to fall off. Unfortunately I don't have so many lights like that anymore. The lights I do are already a good enough tint.
> 
> I also tried the double sided scotch tape, but that got messy after the light heated up to a certain point. Also a decent loss of light after that not-so-transparent tape was added. It was too weak anyway, getting messed up after putting into a pocket or bag.


The tape was not a good idea. You most likely may not be able to remove the adhesive from the lens without damaging exterior lens surface coatings .
Were yours falling off? Or were You just wanting it never to? 
The best way without damaging the lens is sqeegying the filter in place. The filters I've used would ding, rip, scratch, but not fall off. 
It would need to be removed once properly affixed. 
There may be a reason yours were falling off, if they were. Does the filter You have have a label on it's package?


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## markr6

When you say label on the package, are you looking for the brand/type? It's this one here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BX5Q7PI/?tag=cpf0b6-20


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## Derek Dean

Gee, both of those cutters look great, but I don't have enough lights to justify either. I get maybe one or two new lights a year and I don't mind spending a few minutes to cut out a filter, but still, those look like they'd both do a good job. Thanks for the suggestions and links.

Mark......we all have different priorities, and I was so happy to hear that your last couple of Zebralights both had good tints. Mine ALWAYS have a bit of green, but at least I know I can easily fix them with a filter.


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## Hondo

Mark, it always depends on the light. On those I can trap the filter under the bezel or lens, I do, and then I don't have to be as precise about the edges.

If I have to do it from the outside, and there is a straight wall inside the bezel, not flaired out, I will just wedge them in there. I do this the most, and it has never failed. It requires careful slow trimming to get it just slightly larger than the opening. A tad too big and it buckles up, a tad too small and it won't wedge in. I find it very helpful to cut a paper one first to get close, and use it as a template to get the filter real close before final trimming.

Finally, for tapered bezels, and if I did the above and over-shot, the squeegying method Got Lumens mentioned works well. I used a drop of glass cleaner, but the soapy water sounds like it would work too. Never lost one of these either.

My worst case was on lights that have no bezel depth at all, like optics. I have resorted to double stick tape for those. But not across the lens, just four teeny, tiny bits, about the size of a grain of rice, on the four edges of the lens. Not so slick, but does not show up in the beam at all, and of the two I've had to do that way, I have not lost the filter yet.


----------



## novice

I didn't pay that much attention to this thread when it first started, but now that I am more concerned about beam tint, I wanted to start getting interested in experimenting with gel filters. Many thanks to Derek Dean for originally starting this thread back in 2011. I have any of a number of cool-tinted led lights that I would like to work on changing. I created a Word document and copied-and-pasted what I thought some of the most pertinent posts for me were, so I don't have to read all 12 pages to review some of the material. I just got two Malkoff MDX-22.3 bezels, and I am going to put my cool-tint Malkoff M60 MC-E in one of them. If anyone is thinking of getting Lee gel filter swatch books, you can get a maximum of two of the "Numeric Swatch books" at $2 each, and one of the "Designer Edition" swatch books for just $0.01, if you use the discount code "SWATCH". The shipping is going to bring the total up to about $11. I think it's worth it. The "Designer Edition" appears to have the same number of swatches as the "Numeric Edition" version, but they don't have them in the sequentially-numbered order. You can order them from the following page:

https://shop.leefiltersusa.com/Swatch-Book-Designers-Edition-SWB.htm?categoryId=-1

They don't have their limited-palette Zircon (high temperature) gel filter swatch book listed on their website, but I e-mailed them, and they sent me one for free. This Zircon swatch book has (so far) five "Minus Green" filters, six "Warm Amber" filters, and three "Diffusion filters"

All of these swatchbooks are big enough for a Surefire C/P/G/G2Z series, or an e-series. One reason for getting more than one swatch book (in addition to their cheap cost) is so you can use one of them for cutting out your own round filters, but keeping a book or two intact. Once I figure out a color I like for my Malkoff M*g with a 3-6 D-cell drop-in, I will need to order one of the 12"x12" gel filter sheets. There are 400 different tints in the "Designer' Edition" and "Numeric Edition" swatchbooks, so its going to take me a while to work my way through these.


----------



## novice

Would it be possible to move this thread to the General Flashlight Discussion where more people could see it?


----------



## eraursls1984

novice said:


> ...Once I figure out a color I like for my Malkoff M*g with a 3-6 D-cell drop-in, I will need to order one of the 12"x12" gel filter sheets...


Where do you find the 12"x12" sheets?


----------



## novice

eraursis1984,
I have not done a lot of web searching, but here is a 12-pack of the Lee Zircon filters:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...ilters_pkltgzir_zircon_led_lighting_pack.html

I don't think I want to spend the money for an entire 12-pack, _but I will keep searching_ for individual sheets.

In the meantime, here is a source of Rosco swatch books:

https://www.adorama.com/rosb.html

... and they have 20"x24" individual sheets for about $6.50 each, provided you can find the tint you want in their swatch book:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/sear...&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=

I hope that I can find individual Lee Zircon gel filter sheets for sale somewhere because they are more temperature-resistant, but I may be over-thinking the temperature angle.


----------



## lumen aeternum

*Re: I'm an LED tint snob!*

photobucket doesn't show up anymore. Any newer photos available?


----------



## Got Lumens?

lumen aeternum said:


> photobucket doesn't show up anymore. Any newer photos available?



I am reposting my replies below.
The photos from Photobucket do show up in Chrome with the Photobucket patch installed. 
The new Dropbox pics do not show up in all browsers, MobileWeb, or TapaTalk. 
If so, You need to click on the placeholder and the pic will open in a new browser window/tab.
Hope this helps
GL





Got Lumens? said:


> Here are two recent wall shots. I will try to get some outdoor shots soon.
> First a Freehand shot with the Preon0's distance to wall ~6":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . . . Click to Enlarge
> 
> 
> Second a controlled shot with the Preon0's distance to wall 10":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . . . Click to Enlarge
> 
> 
> GL






Got Lumens? said:


> Hi,
> Using the Lee Filter Swatch book I took a few photos using 4 Sevens Preon2 CW R5 hosts.
> Filters used are Primary Red #106, Just Blue #079, & Primary Green #139.
> Clickable thumbnails.
> Enjoy
> GL






Got Lumens? said:


> Derek Dean,
> Here's a first for the thread. A Lee filter that increased the lux power of the light on low level . Calculated 1M Lux without 0.1175. Calculated 1M lux with 0.475 lux.
> #271 Mirror Silver
> GL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . . . Click to Enlarge






Got Lumens? said:


> Derek,
> Thanks for sharing Swatch Book!
> The New Swatch Book, Designer Edition, does not have page numbers.
> Does anyone know of a different edition currently for sale that has page numbers?
> 
> 
> The Swatch Book Designer Edition is arranged Per wavelength. Starting in the Ultra-Violets and progressing to the Infra-Reds, The diffusing films/fabrics, and then the Diffusion Foils and Reflective Films/Foils.
> 
> 
> I will play around with it some and report back my results.
> 
> 
> I guess for those that have a newer swatch book without page numbering, mention the approximate Wavelength section the filter is from.
> Example: #100 Spring Yellow ~600nm or #332 Special Rose Pink ~700nm. This way those with and those without page numbers can find a particular filter much easier and faster.
> GL


----------



## SubLGT

novice said:


> ....They don't have their limited-palette Zircon (high temperature) gel filter swatch book listed on their website, but I e-mailed them, and they sent me one for free. This Zircon swatch book has (so far) five "Minus Green" filters, six "Warm Amber" filters, and three "Diffusion filters"...



Apparently the Zircon swatch book is no longer available. There are various Zircon sampler "packs" of 12" x 12"sheets here: 
http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/packs.html

Zircon detailed info here: http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/zircon.html


----------



## Husker

Does anyone sell LED throw flashlights that come with a Red, Green or Blue beam?


----------



## Got Lumens?

SubLGT said:


> Apparently the Zircon swatch book is no longer available. There are various Zircon sampler "packs" of 12" x 12"sheets here:
> http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/packs.html
> 
> Zircon detailed info here: http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/zircon.html


They are still listed on the site




_piclink_


----------



## Derek Dean

Got Lumens, thanks so much for helping to maintain this important thread : )


----------



## kaichu dento

Husker said:


> Does anyone sell LED throw flashlights that come with a Red, Green or Blue beam?


The best, quickest way to getting a throwy light with color would be to pick one you already like and just add the proper filter to get the color you're after. It's actually way better than letting a manufacturer choose your color for you, as you can go warmer, cooler, more or less saturated depending on your tastes and not someone else's.


----------



## jrgold

Husker said:


> Does anyone sell LED throw flashlights that come with a Red, Green or Blue beam?



The noctigon k1 comes in red, green, and white osram emitters. It’s a very powerful 21700 thrower


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Derek Dean

Just a quick note of interest, it's come to my attention that the regular LEE filters fade VERY quickly when used in front of LEDs. It is now HIGHLY recommended that you purchase and use only LEE *ZIRCON* filters, which are specifically designed to be used with LEDs. Zircon material is twice as thick and highly resistant to fading. 

I found the Lee Zircon filter # 802, which is approx. equivalent to minus 1/4 green, to be nearly perfect for filtering ALL my Zebralights. Zircon #803 would be approx equivalent to minus 1/8 green. 

I was really surprised when I replaced all my regular Lee filters with the Zircon filters, to find exactly how much those old Lee Filters had faded, so trust me, it's really worth it for the slight extra expense to go for the Zircon filters. 

I've updated the first post in this thread with the new info. Happy filtering : )


----------



## jtr1962

I noticed this thread dates from nearly 10 years ago. At this point there are any number of LEDs available in all color temperatures with CRIs at least in the low 90s. Given that, I question the point of filtering. Maybe it can fix small variations around the margins, but that's assuming the correct filter exists. But honestly, almost nobody would be able to tell CRI 93 from CRI 98, assuming a filter could get you from 93 to 98.


----------



## Derek Dean

jtr1962,
Just because an LED has a high CRI rating and nice color temperature doesn't necessarily mean it will have a pleasing tint. Color temperature and tint are two different animals, color temp is the variation between red/yellow and cyan/blue, while tint is the variation between green and magenta. 

I have 4 lights that have CRI ratings above 90, and every single one of them has a greenish tint. When I place the proper level of magenta filter over them (or minus green if you prefer that nomenclature), they suddenly become extremely beautiful to my eye, with nearly perfect white beams and wonderful color rendering. 

I believe I'm hyper sensitive to any green tint from my many years as a professional color printer, where I printed wedding photos all day long, and believe me, you don't want any hint of green in flesh tones, as it tends to make folks look a bit sickly. 

Many folks don't mind a bit of green tint, because it can actually make outdoor foliage look rather nice, but for me, it's a no go. And yes, I've got two lights that specifically have Nichia 219b LEDs at 4500k , and they still appear just a bit green to my eye. But once I put a filter on them, then WOW, the green tint is gone and the colors just pop, and I'm a happy camper. 

Hey, if you'd like to try some of this Zircon filter material for yourself, just PM me your address and I'll slip a small piece of Zircon 802 in the mail to you. You just might become a convert :twothumbs


----------



## Got Lumens?

jtr1962 said:


> I noticed this thread dates from nearly 10 years ago. At this point there are any number of LEDs available in all color temperatures with CRIs at least in the low 90s. Given that, I question the point of filtering. Maybe it can fix small variations around the margins, but that's assuming the correct filter exists. But honestly, almost nobody would be able to tell CRI 93 from CRI 98, assuming a filter could get you from 93 to 98.


Filtering will not increase the CRI. Filtering lowers certain color temperatures to make a light more aesthetically pleasing. The main point is You may have a light You really like but hate the tint, and filtering can help. Most LED lights last many years and great percentage of the older one's are still in service.


----------



## kaichu dento

Derek Dean said:


> I found the Lee Zircon filter # 802, which is approx. equivalent to minus 1/4 green, to be nearly perfect for filtering ALL my Zebralights. Zircon #803 would be approx equivalent to minus 1/8 green.
> 
> I've updated the first post in this thread with the new info. Happy filtering : )


Thanks for keeping up with this after all these years. I've had so many emitters swapped but have a modded E1L that for some reason was determined to be too difficult and I couldn't stand the light coming out of it. Now thanks to some minus green it's become one of my favorite lights to reach for.


----------



## kaichu dento

jtr1962 said:


> I noticed this thread dates from nearly 10 years ago. At this point there are any number of LEDs available in all color temperatures with CRIs at least in the low 90s. Given that, I question the point of filtering. Maybe it can fix small variations around the margins, but that's assuming the correct filter exists. But honestly, almost nobody would be able to tell CRI 93 from CRI 98, assuming a filter could get you from 93 to 98.


Yes, it's an old thread with still usable information. There are lots of emitter choices. Apparently you didn't read the pertinent parts of the thread or you would have understood better the reasons that some of us have been using the filters and the fact that you can do much more than fixing "small variations around the margins." Seems you're also confused as to the differences between CRI and output color. The first has nothing to do with this thread and the second is the primary focus of it.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

I thought it was emitter heat that caused LEE Filters to bleach out in the center. I concur with Derek that many Nichia, Hi CRI LED's have a hint of green and be distracting; that slight Magenta is much better for skin tones and some browns in the environment. 

And with today's powerful light makers, the lumen loss from filtering is not a big deal. I just wonder how much light is reflected back off the shiny face of the filter nearest the source.


----------



## jtr1962

Got Lumens? said:


> Filtering will not increase the CRI. Filtering lowers certain color temperatures to make a light more aesthetically pleasing. The main point is You may have a light You really like but hate the tint, and filtering can help. Most LED lights last many years and great percentage of the older one's are still in service.


My first instinct if I had a light I liked but hated the tint would be to swap out the emitter. That's doubly true if it's an older light. Swapping out the emitter for a modern, more efficient one could give 5x to 10x the output for a really old light. Moreover, emitters are dirt cheap nowadays compared to what they cost in the past.


----------



## jtr1962

kaichu dento said:


> Yes, it's an old thread with still usable information. There are lots of emitter choices. Apparently you didn't read the pertinent parts of the thread or you would have understood better the reasons that some of us have been using the filters and the fact that you can do much more than fixing "small variations around the margins." Seems you're also confused as to the differences between CRI and output color. The first has nothing to do with this thread and the second is the primary focus of it.


It's a long thread, so no, I didn't read most of it. My general take is that LEDs have improved vastly since this thread was started, both in terms of tint and CRI. Tint seems to be more a preference than anything else, so I get that part of it. Even modern LEDs may not have a tint you like because they're designed to mostly be on the BBL. Some people prefer a light source which is slightly off the BBL. Filters let you get something which isn't manufactured. I'm not really that sensitive to tints unless it's noticeably extreme. Bluish or aqua tints bother me the least. Purple tints bother me the most. Green is somewhere in between.


----------



## jtr1962

Derek Dean said:


> jtr1962,
> Just because an LED has a high CRI rating and nice color temperature doesn't necessarily mean it will have a pleasing tint. Color temperature and tint are two different animals, color temp is the variation between red/yellow and cyan/blue, while tint is the variation between green and magenta.
> 
> I have 4 lights that have CRI ratings above 90, and every single one of them has a greenish tint. When I place the proper level of magenta filter over them (or minus green if you prefer that nomenclature), they suddenly become extremely beautiful to my eye, with nearly perfect white beams and wonderful color rendering.
> 
> I believe I'm hyper sensitive to any green tint from my many years as a professional color printer, where I printed wedding photos all day long, and believe me, you don't want any hint of green in flesh tones, as it tends to make folks look a bit sickly.
> 
> Many folks don't mind a bit of green tint, because it can actually make outdoor foliage look rather nice, but for me, it's a no go. And yes, I've got two lights that specifically have Nichia 219b LEDs at 4500k , and they still appear just a bit green to my eye. But once I put a filter on them, then WOW, the green tint is gone and the colors just pop, and I'm a happy camper.
> 
> Hey, if you'd like to try some of this Zircon filter material for yourself, just PM me your address and I'll slip a small piece of Zircon 802 in the mail to you. You just might become a convert :twothumbs


You may well be hyper sensitive to green tint. Note that one person's "white" can easily be someone else's green or purple or blue tint. I've heard the lens of your eyes yellows with age. A light which seemed blue in your youth might now seem perfectly white.

I'll PM you if I decide to take you up on your offer. In truth, the last few years I've been a caretaker for my mom, and have totally lost most interest in my hobbies. I haven't even touched most of my lights in years. Then in December my beloved cat got sick. I nursed her along until February 23 when she passed away. Cancer unfortunately, and by the time she exhibited noticeable symptoms there wasn't much which could be done beyond making her comfortable. Thankfully she spared me from having to make the decision to euthanize her. She was comfortable and happy right up until the end. Right now I'm just posting here as a distraction but in truth I've totally lost interest in all my hobbies, probably for a really long time. But if I get back into things, I'll probably ask you to send me some filters.


----------



## Derek Dean

jtr1962, absolutely correct that we all see things differently, which is the beauty of filters, as they let us customize the tint to our own personal liking, and at least for me, it's much easier than chasing different LEDs. I just make sure that any light I purchase now has a high CRI LED, and then when it arrives I filter it to my liking. Easy. 

And yes, when I got my cataracts taken care of a few years ago, I did notice a distinct change in the clarity and color of light. It was quite wonderful to see the world with "new" eyes. 

I'm sorry to hear about your cat, and having taken care of my Mom, I understand how easy it is to lose interest in hobbies, but don't worry, it doesn't last, and at some point something will just "click", and you'll suddenly find yourself interested again. Anyway, I hope you will take me up on my offer. I'll also throw in some regular (non Zircon) filter material for you to play with, as it can be a lot of fun.


----------



## Owen

I feel like there are many misconceptions about this topic, or maybe things people just don't give much thought to.
First, there is a fixed relationship between colors, and it is not subjective, or a "matter of preference".
Second, our visual acuity is based on contrast, not color rendering(how many colors are there on an eye chart?), and contrast is based on that fixed relationship between colors-which is why tint, not CRI, is what determines how well we differentiate details.
While they are not mutually exclusive, you can have high CRI without high contrast, which is why high CRI alone does not translate into "seeing better".
How well a color is rendered is often very hard to judge or appreciate without a standard to make a direct comparison with. Increased definition, defined as "the degree of distinctness in outline of an object, image, or sound, especially of an image", is something that is much more immediately obvious. When we see "high definition" displays, the idea is not that colors are rendered more accurately, but that the overall image is sharper, and shows more detail. "HD", a marketing term in optics, refers to the use of extra-low dispersion glass that reduces color fringing and chromatic aberration, the purpose again being a more detailed image with more well-defined edges.

Our perception of color changes, because our eyes can adapt to that. What they can't do is create contrast between colors, because that does not change.
I think this is why there is a lot of disappointment expressed about the tint of some of these high CRI LEDs, and it is certainly one of the reasons I have never given that term, or rating, much weight in my own buying decisions.

Anyway, what degrades these filters; is it heat?
I use a Lee filter to make a cool white, in a light that has no neutral option, more usable. I suppose some gradual degradation over time is not a big deal to me, since a single filter sheet is enough to make hundreds of them, and it only takes a couple of minutes to cut and swap in a new one...


----------



## Derek Dean

I'm happy to see this discussion brought back to life, as I think it's still VERY important, and I agree that there are still many misconceptions about the subject of LED light color. 

By the way, Owen, I don't know what causes the filters to degrade, whether it's heat or what, but I do know that with the regular filters it seems to happen fairly quickly on my LED lights, so I'm happy that I've finally refiltered them all with the new Zircon material, which was super easy to do since I just used the old filters as templates. 

And Owen, I'll make you the same offer. If you'd like to try the Zircon 802 filter material, just PM me with your address and I'll send you some, and heck, I'll make that offer to anybody that wants to try it, for at least as long as my supply holds out (USA only please).


----------



## Owen

I don't have anything that I'd use a minus green filter in, but thank you so much for the offer. Think it was one of your posts that motivated me to buy a Malkoff M61HOT, along with some Lee filters to try in it. I really like this light with the 206, and wouldn't have bought it otherwise, so thanks for that, too!
I've sent a couple of members some Lee 206 and 223 to try out, but don't know if they've used them yet. 
The 206 does a good job knocking out the blue.
I posted this on the Malkoff forum right after getting the filters:
----------
M61HOT, before and after Lee 206:






Compared to my old original M61N with XP-G:









----------

Now I'm interested in trying some of Lee's less aggressive diffusing film to see if I can get a wider spot that blends into the spill more(like a Zebralight) with the M61N. That would sell me on a LL version, that I also wouldn't otherwise buy, because I don't want a concentrated spot in a low output light.
It's great to have these options, and be able to "customize" lights to taste.


----------



## Derek Dean

It's funny that mentioned the diffusion material, Owen, because I just got a new Zebralight today (SC64c LE), and of course it needed an 802 minus green filter, but I also added some diffusion material from the Lee Filter swatch book and it did a great job of smoothing out the beam. I think it was called "Hollywood Diffusion". 

And wow, that 206 filter you added to your light made a huge difference. Very nice indeed.


----------



## Owen

How are you attaching these filters to Zebralights?

Hope you enjoy the SC64c. I've had the SC64w HI for a few months, and absolutely love it. I use Malkoffs for heavy use at work and "emergency" lights, but Zebralights for everything else.


----------



## Derek Dean

Owen, on my older Zebras (and some of my other lights) I'm able to unscrew the bezel and place the filter inside. On the new ones, I simply place a tiny piece of double sided tape square in the middle of the glass and stick the filter on it. I've done this on 5 of my lights, including one that I've used every night at work for the last 5 years (and rides in my front left pants pocket), and never had any issues with the filters coming off, etc, and because the piece of tape is tiny and sitting right in the middle, I don't see any change in the beam pattern.

Yep, you can't beat those Malkoff lights for rugged and dependable construction. So far, I've only had one Zebra fail, a faulty light switch in an SC600 that I bought used. Fortunately the folks at Zebralight were able to fix it for $15, so not too bad. 

Oh yeah, I love the new SC64c LE. Once I got it filtered I was able to enjoy that beautiful hi CRI beam in all it's glory. Already tried it at work tonight, and I've got a feeling this is going to be my new #1.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

After reading that Derek just got an SC64 LE, ever so quickly went to ZL website only to see they are still back ordered...
Derek, that flashlight is so much more efficient and brighter (do miss the lowest lows, though) than the older ZL’s in this house, but it is not an ideal tint and would be curious to hear what you used to improve the cast.

First Zebralight is an SC52 from maybe 7 years ago; horrible green dreariness. Put a 1/4 minus green filter (thanks to Derek) and made it nice. Gave it to elderly mother where it spent years in her purse, using only primary lithium AA except in dire emergency. With careful cutting and fitting, a disc of LEE filter material was used on the outside of the glass by slipping it under the bezel ring just a little on the edges (no adhesive tape). It was not perfect but has lasted all these years. Now that she is no longer alive it has become wife’s.


----------



## Derek Dean

KITROBASKIN, It's funny, I mean, it's not like I "needed" another Zebralight. My original SC62w works just fine and has been my nightly work light for many years, and with a 1/4 minus green filter on it, the tint is nearly perfect white, but I've heard so many folks talk about how great the SC64c LE is, that I thought I'd give it a try and see if the hi CRI LED made any difference. 

Like you, when I went to the ZL website, it said back ordered, but I'd read that many folks still ordered it while it was back ordered, and that it was still shipped in about a week, so I did the same thing. I knew it was a risk, but like I said, it's not like I really "needed" a new light, so I was prepared to wait, but sure enough, about a week after I ordered it, I got the shipping notice. 

Anyway, I fired it up, and the first thing I noticed was a slight greenish tint. No surprise there, so I used some of my new Lee Zircon 802 filter material (which is similar to a 1/4 minus green), and that cleaned it right up. I also added some diffusion material because my uses are all very close up and I prefer a nice smooth beam for that. 

Of course the original SC62w is rated at about 4400 k, which gives me a very white beam when filtered, while the newer SC64c LE is rated at 4000 k, which gives me a bit more of a creamy warm tint when filtered. It's actually quite lovely and only apparent when comparing the two lights next to each other. 

The thing that surprised me is that there is not that much of a difference in how they render colors. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, because the SC62w (once filtered) has always been very pleasant to use, with very good color definition, but I had expected just a bit more of a difference with the new higher CRI LED. 

Anyway, I'll be keeping both lights, as I do really like that the SC62w has a lower LOW level, which is quite noticeable, and while the difference in color rendering is subtle, I still prefer the newer SC64c LE for it's creamy goodness, and I do really like the new clip (which is MUCH stronger than the old one).


----------



## Got Lumens?

Derek Dean said:


> KITROBASKIN, It's funny, I mean, it's not like I "needed" another Zebralight. My original SC62w works just fine and has been my nightly work light for many years, and with a 1/4 minus green filter on it, the tint is nearly perfect white, but I've heard so many folks talk about how great the SC64c LE is, that I thought I'd give it a try and see if the hi CRI LED made any difference.
> 
> Like you, when I went to the ZL website, it said back ordered, but I'd read that many folks still ordered it while it was back ordered, and that it was still shipped in about a week, so I did the same thing. I knew it was a risk, but like I said, it's not like I really "needed" a new light, so I was prepared to wait, but sure enough, about a week after I ordered it, I got the shipping notice.
> 
> Anyway, I fired it up, and the first thing I noticed was a slight greenish tint. No surprise there, so I used some of my new Lee Zircon 802 filter material (which is similar to a 1/4 minus green), and that cleaned it right up. I also added some diffusion material because my uses are all very close up and I prefer a nice smooth beam for that.
> 
> Of course the original SC62w is rated at about 4400 k, which gives me a very white beam when filtered, while the newer SC64c LE is rated at 4000 k, which gives me a bit more of a creamy warm tint when filtered. It's actually quite lovely and only apparent when comparing the two lights next to each other.
> 
> The thing that surprised me is that there is not that much of a difference in how they render colors. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, because the SC62w (once filtered) has always been very pleasant to use, with very good color definition, but I had expected just a bit more of a difference with the new higher CRI LED.
> 
> Anyway, I'll be keeping both lights, as I do really like that the SC62w has a lower LOW level, which is quite noticeable, and while the difference in color rendering is subtle, I still prefer the newer SC64c LE for it's creamy goodness, and I do really like the new clip (which is MUCH stronger than the old one).


Can we get a screen shot of the two


----------



## Derek Dean

Got Lumens? said:


> Can we get a screen shot of the two


Okie dokie. Not sure this is going help much. I'm in the middle of a project so these are just quick snaps, and it's important to remember that both lights have Zircon 802 filters and the SC64c LE has an additional piece of diffusion material as well. I just didn't have time to take those filters off. 

This first shot is a white wall and white piece of cardboard that the lights are laying on. Camera White balance set to 5000K, which is what I typically use for daylight.

Camera White Balance set to 5000K.........SC62w on left and SC64c LE on right.




With Camera still at 5000K, I took two images of some soup cans to show relative color rendering:

Camera at 5000K ..... SC62w




Camera at 5000K ..... SC64c LE




Now, I'm going to match the color balance of the camera to the listed K value for each light, that's 4400K for the SC62w and 4000K for the SC64c LE. I'm hoping this will help give a better idea of the relative ability to render colors accurately. 

Camera at 4400K ..... SC62w




Camera at 4000K ..... SC64c LE 




So, again, not sure how much this helps, but it should give an idea of how they compare. Anyway, I'm amazed at how well the SC62w looks when it's filtered with that Zircon 802, but I do believe the SC64c LE (filtered with an 802) just edges it out, and in real world use, the SC64c LE is just a step above. And yes, I like soup


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## Got Lumens?

Thank You Dean
There a big noticeable difference setting the white balance on the camera. I'll have to play with that on my next shoot.
I like the diffusion You added, smooth's it right out
I like soup too


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## Owen

What kind of double-sided tape was that? 
Have any of you tried any of the transparent adhesives that are liquid, and harden? I'm wondering if those would be removable/replaceable, but haven't read up on them yet.

I have tried several different products from Lee Filters lately, and am jamming what could be half a dozen separate replies into one post(please don't quote this whole thing!), but hope someone might find these comments and observations helpful in choosing which product might work for what they want.

My Malkoff Hound Dog Super's beam had some green in the corona, so I bought the 802, 803, and 804 minus greens to play with. 
The filters work as advertised, and the "step" from one filter to the next is noticeable in the effect on both tint and output.
Any other comments I could make would be specific to that one light, but I'll say that the 802 is a very strong filter with a pretty dramatic effect on both tint and output, and perhaps better considered a last resort rather than a starting point.

Seeing the 803, and especially the more transmissive 804, in action actually makes me want to try a plus blue on lights that are a bit warmer than I prefer.
Not sure if these filters are a blessing, or the road to madness.
I'm afraid closely comparing tints(that are all fine on their own) side by side, and wanting to match them all up, or adjust individual ones to a preferred tint for a specific environment really is a "rabbit hole" that'll make you be careful what you wish for!

Also got the 251 and 252 diffusion film, which it turns out are MUCH more diffusive than what I was looking for, or was suggested by the little slider on their website that's supposed to show the degree of each film's effect. The 251 Quarter White makes even a spot-oriented beam almost pure flood, while using the 252 Eighth White results in a beam very similar to Zebralight's F models.
This is what the Lee 252(>85% transmissivity!) did to my old(XPG, perhaps only 230ish lumens) M61N:





It does limit the beam's usefulness for what I think of as a "general purpose" flashlight, but is wonderful for close use indoors or out. What you can't see from the pic is that the beam is lighting up everything from a few inches in front of the lens. Floor, ceiling...everything.
Here it is outdoors:











Shined my old SC52w through a piece of 803 the other day, and whoa! Didn't keep it from looking a bit dingy next to the SC64w HI, but still a very noticeable improvement. It was always the worst of my neutrals, but minus green really cleans it up!

Finally, as a FYI, the advent of the Zircon filters kind of gave me the impression that the regular ones were flimsy.
My M61HOT with the 206 filter recently got left on, or somehow turned on, in my pocket for a while. The Lee 206 between the lens and optic was unharmed, at least visually, in spite of the acrylic lens getting deformed, and the gasket in front of it partially melting to the lens. I replaced the 206, anyway, because it seemed like it was not filtering as much blue out after the "incident", but I was surprised and impressed that the filter didn't deform or melt.


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## Derek Dean

Owen said:


> What kind of double-sided tape was that?
> 
> Not sure if these filters are a blessing, or the road to madness.
> I'm afraid closely comparing tints(that are all fine on their own) side by side, and wanting to match them all up, or adjust individual ones to a preferred tint for a specific environment really is a "rabbit hole" that'll make you be careful what you wish for!


Owen, a VERY relevant and useful post. Thank you for taking the time to share your first hand observations. 

By the way, I simply use Scotch Double Sided Tape, available pretty much anywhere. All it takes is a teeny tiny piece placed directly in the center.

And yes, when I first started this "madness", many years ago, I spent countless hours mixing and matching filters, trying to get that perfect colored beam, but have since settled for simply improving the beam to something better than when I started, so usually now, I'll just pop on an 802 Zircon plus a little diffusion (picked from one of my Lee Filter Swatch books), and call it a day. That will typically get me in the ball park of the smooth, slightly rosy beam that I tend to favor.

Have fun. I'll look forward to your continued observations : )


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## Got Lumens?

Owen said:


> What kind of double-sided tape was that?
> Have any of you tried any of the transparent adhesives that are liquid, and harden? I'm wondering if those would be removable/replaceable, but haven't read up on them yet.
> 
> I have tried several different products from Lee Filters lately, and am jamming what could be half a dozen separate replies into one post(please don't quote this whole thing!), but hope someone might find these comments and observations helpful in choosing which product might work for what they want.
> 
> My Malkoff Hound Dog Super's beam had some green in the corona, so I bought the 802, 803, and 804 minus greens to play with.
> The filters work as advertised, and the "step" from one filter to the next is noticeable in the effect on both tint and output.
> Any other comments I could make would be specific to that one light, but I'll say that the 802 is a very strong filter with a pretty dramatic effect on both tint and output, and perhaps better considered a last resort rather than a starting point.
> 
> Seeing the 803, and especially the more transmissive 804, in action actually makes me want to try a plus blue on lights that are a bit warmer than I prefer.
> Not sure if these filters are a blessing, or the road to madness.
> I'm afraid closely comparing tints(that are all fine on their own) side by side, and wanting to match them all up, or adjust individual ones to a preferred tint for a specific environment really is a "rabbit hole" that'll make you be careful what you wish for!
> 
> Also got the 251 and 252 diffusion film, which it turns out are MUCH more diffusive than what I was looking for, or was suggested by the little slider on their website that's supposed to show the degree of each film's effect. The 251 Quarter White makes even a spot-oriented beam almost pure flood, while using the 252 Eighth White results in a beam very similar to Zebralight's F models.
> This is what the Lee 252(>85% transmissivity!) did to my old(XPG, perhaps only 230ish lumens) M61N:
> 
> 
> It does limit the beam's usefulness for what I think of as a "general purpose" flashlight, but is wonderful for close use indoors or out. What you can't see from the pic is that the beam is lighting up everything from a few inches in front of the lens. Floor, ceiling...everything.
> Here it is outdoors:
> 
> 
> Shined my old SC52w through a piece of 803 the other day, and whoa! Didn't keep it from looking a bit dingy next to the SC64w HI, but still a very noticeable improvement. It was always the worst of my neutrals, but minus green really cleans it up!
> 
> Finally, as a FYI, the advent of the Zircon filters kind of gave me the impression that the regular ones were flimsy.
> My M61HOT with the 206 filter recently got left on, or somehow turned on, in my pocket for a while. The Lee 206 between the lens and optic was unharmed, at least visually, in spite of the acrylic lens getting deformed, and the gasket in front of it partially melting to the lens. I replaced the 206, anyway, because it seemed like it was not filtering as much blue out after the "incident", but I was surprised and impressed that the filter didn't deform or melt.




I've had the Carclo triple 21mm's melt on me! Light got activated while bezel down???. It melted the lens and left a burn mark in the wood that it sat upon. There have been many undocumented uses of filters that have not worked well. Dean is the go to for filtering on CPF. Dean has so many thousands of hours of documented observations, I think the Filter companies should compensate/sponsor him for opening a new market other stage/cinema applications. Their engineers know, but have no idea about LED flashlight applications.






Derek Dean said:


> Owen, a VERY relevant and useful post. Thank you for taking the time to share your first hand observations.
> 
> By the way, I simply use Scotch Double Sided Tape, available pretty much anywhere. All it takes is a teeny tiny piece placed directly in the center.
> 
> .....


Thank You Dean for your knowledge and application advice .
_GL
_


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## Owen

Some feedback on the Lee 206 filter:

The Malkoff M61HOT uses a 6200K emitter.
I recently did some white balance comparisons between it and lights with 4000K and 4500K emitters.
This was after everything got heated up from the light being left on, as previously described. Based on the CCT relative to the neutral emitters, the Lee 206 was knocking the 6200K down to 5100-5200K.
I just redid the test with the recently installed replacement filter, and am getting 4800-4900K.
^^^these are guesstimates based on adjusting WB in the Pro mode of a Samsung S9's camera, not gospel. 

Whether due to time, use, or heat, I can't say, but between my noticing a visible difference, however slight(I constantly use, play with, and compare the same 3 lights), and confirming with the WB comparison, these filters are obviously not a permanent solution, and will need replacing at some point due to degradation.
Given that I installed the original filter on Feb. 2, and replaced it in about 2 minutes over 3 months later, after 6-7 nights per week of regular use, and exposure to an unusual amount of heat, it still gets :twothumbs from me.


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