# What is the warmest whitest Q5 emitter?



## vestureofblood (Nov 26, 2008)

I love my incan lights because of the warm pure white color of the light. What is the closest I can get in color with a Q5 emitter? I guess bin is what I need? And where to order maybe? 

I have also seen an adjustable driver I was considering, would there be and advantage to this? ie can I drive the emitter at more than 1A 1200mah maybe, without a ? If anyone knows where I can get a single mode driver for a Q5 that would be great too.


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## saabluster (Nov 27, 2008)

vestureofblood said:


> I love my incan lights because of the warm pure white color of the light. What is the closest I can get in color with a Q5 emitter? I guess bin is what I need? And where to order maybe?
> 
> I have also seen an adjustable driver I was considering, would there be and advantage to this? ie can I drive the emitter at more than 1A 1200mah maybe, without a ? If anyone knows where I can get a single mode driver for a Q5 that would be great too.


The warmest Q5 would be a WH. Still not what I would call warm though. Up until recently I would have directed you to Cutter but they are having "issues". It will handle 1200mA just fine as long as you do a good job of heatsinking.


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## Cemoi (Nov 27, 2008)

saabluster said:


> The warmest Q5 would be a WH



Doesn't WJ give a better color rendition (although not warmer), as it is centered around the BBL?


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## rockz4532 (Nov 27, 2008)

doesnt this belong in the LED subforum?


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## saabluster (Nov 28, 2008)

Cemoi said:


> Doesn't WJ give a better color rendition (although not warmer), as it is centered around the BBL?


In theory yes. However I have yet to see a WJ for sale at any flux bin much less a Q5.




rockz4532 said:


> doesnt this belong in the LED subforum?


You are quite right.


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## SilverFox (Nov 28, 2008)

Hello Vestureofblood,

I will move this over to the LED section.

Tom


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## applevision (Nov 28, 2008)

Don't forget this really nice collection of warm tints as well:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/212642
:wave:


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## SilverFox (Nov 28, 2008)

Oops, This isn't where this was supposed to end up.

Let me move it again...

Tom


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## Cemoi (Nov 29, 2008)

saabluster said:


> However I have yet to see a WJ for sale at any flux bin



Is a 3A easier to find, which would be as good since according to the XR-E binning and labeling datasheet, the 3A region is included in the WJ region?


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## saabluster (Nov 29, 2008)

Cemoi said:


> Is a 3A easier to find, which would be as good since according to the XR-E binning and labeling datasheet, the 3A region is included in the WJ region?


I have some 3A tint but they are Q3 not Q5. I have not yet seen anything in the neutral white that is Q5.


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## Cemoi (Nov 30, 2008)

saabluster said:


> I have some 3A tint but they are Q3



What do you think about their color rendition?
Where did you buy them?


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## Nos (Nov 30, 2008)

WJ is equal to 3A or most likely the same. and Q3 is the max flux ive seen so far from these. :candle:

hmmm i guess you can buy them at cutter...but at moment better not -.-'


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## saabluster (Nov 30, 2008)

Cemoi said:


> What do you think about their color rendition?
> Where did you buy them?


Even though I have had these for awhile I have yet to do a detailed comparison. Sorry.


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## vestureofblood (Dec 2, 2008)

Does anyone know where I could get a buck converter for a Q5 maybe?


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## TexLite (Dec 3, 2008)

vestureofblood said:


> Does anyone know where I could get a buck converter for a Q5 maybe?


 
What current?

Single or multi-mode?

Sandwich Shoppe has SOB buck drivers or GD buck/boost drivers for single die emitters.Available in a range of currents.

The BuckToot will work,and the Micropuck is configurable as a buck,boost,or buck/boost driver.

-Michael


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## Stillphoto (Dec 3, 2008)

Are there any cree equivalents to the high CRI 3000k and 4000k seoul p4's that I have? Making a cree bar sounds good, but only if I can use leds with high CRI ratings.


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## vestureofblood (Dec 3, 2008)

TexLite said:


> What current?
> 
> Single or multi-mode?
> 
> ...


 

A single mode would be fine, and I would like it to run pretty high like 1200ma or so.


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## saabluster (Dec 3, 2008)

Stillphoto said:


> Are there any cree equivalents to the high CRI 3000k and 4000k seoul p4's that I have? Making a cree bar sounds good, but only if I can use leds with high CRI ratings.


Warm white Crees are not that far off from the high CRI P4s in real world use. Considering the fact that they put out way more light than the SSCs it is worth the slight reduction in CRI for most applications. To answer your question more pointedly though, no, Cree does not have an equivilent to the SSC P4 high CRI. This is one product gap I would like to see Cree fill soon.


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## TexLite (Dec 4, 2008)

vestureofblood said:


> A single mode would be fine, and I would like it to run pretty high like 1200ma or so.


 
The SOB from the Shoppe will work.Add resistors .05 & .22 for 1227mA output when you order.

-Michael


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## tebore (Dec 4, 2008)

saabluster said:


> Warm white Crees are not that far off from the high CRI P4s in real world use. Considering the fact that they put out way more light than the SSCs it is worth the slight reduction in CRI for most applications. To answer your question more pointedly though, no, Cree does not have an equivilent to the SSC P4 high CRI. This is one product gap I would like to see Cree fill soon.



Well Cree does have high CRI offerings designed for fixed lighting. I guess Cree doesn't think CRI is as important as pure flux and color temp in mobile applications.


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## 2xTrinity (Dec 4, 2008)

> Are there any cree equivalents to the high CRI 3000k and 4000k seoul p4's that I have? Making a cree bar sounds good, but only if I can use leds with high CRI ratings.


I've used 5A LEDs (~4000k) side-by-side with 4000k High CRI Seouls. The improvement in CRI from the SSC is marginal, in exchange for a huge 50% efficiency cut. IMO this tradeoff is not worth it for all but maybe some very exotic applications.

I don't see high-CRI/ low efficiency LEDs being widely marketable, because the main advantage of LEDs over other light sources is efficiency. Most applications that truly require high CRI can also afford to simply used filtered halogen light sources and live with low efficiency. 

Compared to the cool white LEDs you're probably used to, 5A (4000k) or 6C (3600k) bins are already much, much better. The LEDs from 4000k down are comparable to than CFLs at their respsective color temps (the very warm LEDs, eg <3000k, are better IMO)

Also not that the CRI number is only valid for comparing light sources at the SAME apparent color temp. IMO the color temperature is the more important parameter. That's why I greatly prefer my 5A LEDs at 4000k for most applications, over my "100 CRI" incans at 2700k.


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## Stillphoto (Dec 4, 2008)

I agree 2xT...I too like the "inbetween" color temp of 4000k, just slightly warm.

The reason I'm such the stickler about CRI and color temperature is because with the photography/motion picture work I'm involved/trying to get involved in, having known color temps and color rendering ratings are pretty much necessary. I need to know when I'm bringing a cree bar along that it's going to blend with the other tungsten sources, and that if I throw a gel on the light, it will react in a similar fashion.

So at this point though, the 5A and 6C crees aren't available in the Q range right?


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## concept0 (Dec 4, 2008)

Stillphoto said:


> I agree 2xT...I too like the "inbetween" color temp of 4000k, just slightly warm.
> 
> The reason I'm such the stickler about CRI and color temperature is because with the photography/motion picture work I'm involved/trying to get involved in, having known color temps and color rendering ratings are pretty much necessary. I need to know when I'm bringing a cree bar along that it's going to blend with the other tungsten sources, and that if I throw a gel on the light, it will react in a similar fashion.
> 
> So at this point though, the 5A and 6C crees aren't available in the Q range right?


 
I believe the 5A is available up to Q3. The thread referenced above has an up-to-date list of lights available with 5A Q3:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/212642


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## concept0 (Dec 4, 2008)

What is the warmest R2 available? Is there a WH or only a WC?


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## blasterman (Dec 4, 2008)

> I don't see high-CRI/ low efficiency LEDs being widely marketable, because the main advantage of LEDs over other light sources is efficiency.


 
Yup.

The fact we have power LEDs capable of decent efficiency at a respectable and subjectively 'neutral white' 4100k, and a CRI over 90 is enough achievement to give the industry lots of applause. How many frikken years did we have to deal with nasty, green/yellow, mono phosphor coated, nasty fluorescents before they finally improved?

Even though the current CRI standard is overly lenient and outdated, once you get about a CRI of 90 the light source is pretty decent for daily aethestic use. For critical work or display you need much higher values, but if fluorescent lights can get up to 98 then I would think LEDs can as well. Like you said though, there isn't a lot of R&D pressure to do this - solution in search of a problem.


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## tebore (Dec 4, 2008)

Basically LEDs are in the race to have the best efficiency. Proper Color rendering isn't really that large a market. It's almost a niche market. There's the medical market and small portions of other markets where color and finishes matter. 

WA has the medical market cornered. Until they start switching from incans to LEDs and with the price and life of their replacement bulbs I don't see why would want to, they won't push LED companies to put in the R&D

The other markets, say for a automotive paint booth requires huge amounts of lighting that would be extremely costly to implement with LEDs. Plus most cars are mass produced where computers check everything. The finish is probably checked with an infrared camera and the paint is checked via the mixture amounts before being applied. 

In all other cases we just need to see, majority of people don't care about seeing well.


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## phantom23 (Dec 5, 2008)

concept0 said:


> What is the warmest R2 available? Is there a WH or only a WC?



There is WH.


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## jenskh (Dec 5, 2008)

and WD.


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## Nos (Dec 5, 2008)

WH seems much warmer to me than WD, but its a little yellow/greenish......perfect for outdoor use


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## concept0 (Dec 5, 2008)

Nos said:


> WH seems much warmer to me than WD, but its a little yellow/greenish......perfect for outdoor use


 

Just so I'm clear, you're saying that you prefer the WH for outdoor use? How does WH compare to 5A?


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## phantom23 (Dec 5, 2008)

It's less yellow. 5A makes everything more yellow than it really is. WH is more natural.


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## concept0 (Dec 5, 2008)

phantom23 said:


> It's less yellow. 5A makes everything more yellow than it really is. WH is more natural.


 

Interesting... I was just considering getting a Jetbeam III military with the 5A Q3, but maybe I'll wait until I can get something with a WH R2.

Does anybody know what tint Q5 the TK11 uses? It seems a bit warmer than other Q5s I've used, so I'm thinking it might be WH...


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## 2xTrinity (Dec 5, 2008)

> Just so I'm clear, you're saying that you prefer the WH for outdoor use? How does WH compare to 5A?


https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2654418&postcount=269

This is a comparison of WH, 5A, and 6C under sunlight white balance. Subjectively, these photos are close to what I see in real life (I have used all three of these bins extensively). WC will be as different from WH, as WH is from 5A in these photos, with WC being biased even further toward the blue, and less green.



phantom23 said:


> It's less yellow. 5A makes everything more yellow than it really is. WH is more natural.


A lot of this will depend on the luck of the draw. Both 5A and especailly WH span a fairly large range of tints. All WH's I've used have had a yellow/green bias compared to high CRI 5000k fluorescents. Some look outright green.

Some 5As have spot-on white balance, others have more of a brownish tint, hoever, I personally find this less objectionable than the green tint of the WH. I also prefer the 4000k color temp of the 5A over the 5000k-5500k color temp, tint issues aside.



> Interesting... I was just considering getting a Jetbeam III military with the 5A Q3, but maybe I'll wait until I can get something with a WH R2.
> 
> Does anybody know what tint Q5 the TK11 uses? It seems a bit warmer than other Q5s I've used, so I'm thinking it might be WH...


I personally would take a Q3 5A over a R2 WH.


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## concept0 (Dec 5, 2008)

Thanks for the thorough response! I'm still debating whether my next light should be R2 WH or Q3 5A.

Maybe I'll start a poll to see which people prefer...


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## Archie Cruz (Dec 5, 2008)

I think the market is ripe for LED's or cluster of emitters that mimic the CRI and spectral characteristics of Incandescents. I read a paper on another forum that went on and on about how true white LED's were not as easy for reading, navigation, haze cutting etc. I just can't remember exactly where I read it. Anyway, I find that the pursuit of a magic emitter BIN is a littel misguided . The holly grail of easy viewing via LED's is something like a P7 with one of the dies being a bit redder and the rest, more neutral. :candle:


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## 2xTrinity (Dec 5, 2008)

Archie Cruz said:


> I think the market is ripe for LED's or cluster of emitters that mimic the CRI and spectral characteristics of Incandescents.


I personally hope that we DO NOT simply end up with LEDs emulating the household type incans (eg color temp <3000k) as the only marketable option, because that is what people are used to. 

I greatly prefer the spectrm of my overdriven incans at 3600k, but they have lifespans measured in tens of hours at that level of drive. IMO improving the CRI of the neutral whites (3500k-5000k), without suffering precipitous efficiency loss, is what I want to see.



> I read a paper on another forum that went on and on about how true white LED's were not as easy for reading, navigation, haze cutting etc. I just can't remember exactly where I read it. Anyway, I find that the pursuit of a magic emitter BIN is a littel misguided . The holly grail of easy viewing via LED's is something like a P7 with one of the dies being a bit redder and the rest, more neutral. :candle:


Define "true". I personally can read easier with 3500k-5000k LEDs, than incan at <3000k lumen for lumen. I find "dimmed" incans at ~2000k nearly impossile to read with, yet I can easily read with LED even with infinitesimal intensity (such as my LF2x at 0.2% output). 

Haze cutting is more a function of beam profile than anything. Comparing an aspheric-lens based LED light (eg, one with almost no sidespill) to a deep reflector incan (also almost no sidespill), the difference is actually fairly minor. The reason reason most LEDs fall on their faces is that most products up to this point have VERY bright spill compared to the intensity of the main beam.

The rayleigh scattering (scattering from molecules smaller than the wavelength of light) that causes the sky to be blue doesn't really apply with fog. Fog will reflect all visisble wavelengths equally. The main reason color is a factor outdoors is that most objects of interest, such as trees and ground, reflect almost zero blue. 



> Anyway, I find that the pursuit of a magic emitter BIN is a littel misguided . The holly grail of easy viewing via LED's is something like a P7 with one of the dies being a bit redder and the rest, more neutral.


This is an interesting idea. It wouldn't really be practical in a P7 as the red would need to have a separate driver, and possible some form of feedbck to keep the ratio of red and white constant. I would like to see a red + yellow + green + blue MC-E, with separately addressable dice, however.

Before the neutral whites were out, my preference was WH bins + red (to balance the green tint). Now I can get almost the same thing with just the 5A. The best LED spectrum I've been able to make using multiple emitters presently is 5A + small amounts of cyan and red.

This lack of cyan I believe is what causes the very warm Cree LEDs, such as the 3000k 7A bins, look "brownish" compared to incans. Red is then added to counter-balance the cyan and make the overall mixture white-balanced again. Net result is similar color temp white with higher CRI.


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## blasterman (Dec 5, 2008)

> IMO improving the CRI of the neutral whites (3500k-5000k), without suffering precipitous efficiency loss, is what I want to see.


 
For the bajillionth time I've repeated it:

http://www.solux.net/cgi-bin/tlistore/infopages/index.html

Solux bulbs are essentially nothing more than a 12-volt MR-16 halogen with a 'cold' reflector that kicks the bulbs kelvin temp up to 4000k or so. They look stunning, have been around for quite awhile, run on 12-volt (without a current regulator -smirk-), and cost around $7-8 for a bulb with a 4,000 hour lifespan. Compared to a Walmart Incan, they are quite a deal.



> I personally can read easier with 3500k-5000k LEDs, than incan at <3000k lumen for lumen. I find "dimmed" incans at ~2000k nearly impossile to read with, yet I can easily read with LED even with infinitesimal intensity (such as my LF2x at 0.2% output).


 
I agree 100%.


However, standard Incan bulbs suck, and I don't get why we keep using them as a reference. At least use halogen, which at least as a kelvin temp above 3000k.


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## TexLite (Dec 6, 2008)

phantom23 said:


> It's less yellow. 5A makes everything more yellow than it really is. WH is more natural.


 
My experience has been that the 5A produces colors much more naturally than the Cool bins,once you use the Warm or Neutral emitters the Cool bins look odd.

-Michael


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## Cemoi (Dec 6, 2008)

phantom23 said:


> WH is more natural.



How does WG stand in this tint contest?
I've just picked a pair of WG Q5 in the bin lottery.


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## Nos (Dec 6, 2008)

> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2654418&postcount=269


 :twothumbs 

This answered a lot of questions to me, but its somewhat clear that 3A would look the best on daylight setting :shrug:

Talking about usable light for outdoors.... since blue is a rare colour in nature all cold emitter lose their lumen advantage to warmer tints.
Now THE question, what range of tints are the best for outdoor ( typically woods, fields etc.) 
3A seems to be the upper mark, but what is the warmest ? 7A looks great outdoors but it seem allready too warm to me. what are your experiences with other warmer tints?


Compared to WC/WH/ and 5C the WG seems "brownish". i would call it the "mud-tint".


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## vestureofblood (Dec 6, 2008)

I am tickled to death at how this thread has taken off, I am just now beginning to understand this whole "bin" thing and the "color temp" issue. I will say that if an over powered WA bulb color temp is 3600 ish then that is the unicorn I would like to see.

2xTrinity, I am a little confused, I followed the links in your sigline to see the shoot out pics, but when I click on the thumbnail all I got was the websites homepage. What do I need to do to see the light pics?


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## vestureofblood (Dec 7, 2008)

Bump


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## gillestugan (Dec 8, 2008)

lol, why does these tint discussions always get so heated?
It's much a matter of personal preference as people perceive colours differently. Especially in low light conditions. 
The brain will also to some level compensate the white balance, making all whites look about the same after some time regardless what tint it had from the beginning.


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## TexLite (Dec 9, 2008)

gillestugan said:


> The brain will also to some level compensate the white balance, making all whites look about the same after some time regardless what tint it had from the beginning.


 
Perhaps,but I think choosing an emitter with a lower K and high CRI,something as close to sunlight as possible,would still require little to no compensation or adjustment,at least for me,because sunlight is the source I'm most accustomed to.

-Michael


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## Archie Cruz (Jan 3, 2009)

Is it allowed to link to another flashlight forum for reference?


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## concept0 (Jan 3, 2009)

Archie Cruz said:


> Is it allowed to link to another flashlight forum for reference?


 
There are OTHER flashlight forums?!


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## vestureofblood (Jan 4, 2009)

Ok here is somthing I will throw out that I am sure some may not think is ideal, but.... I recently purchased some WC bin emitters and decided to see what would happen if I were to direct drive them on a single li-ion cell (ya I know probly hard on the emitter). I figured I would need some very good heatsinking, and I was right they do get hot by doing this. What I did discover though is on 2x alkaline C cells the light had a tiny bit of a green tint to it with the least bit of blue. When I DD the emitter on a li-ion though the tint actually appeard to change (at least to me) by driving it at a higher voltage it seemed to get rid of the green. WC bin to me looks fairly white anyway, and I was very supised at how bright it was compared to the setup I had before with a 950ma driver installed. I wasent sure if this was going to work, or what the life of the emitter will be, but it did come with my friend and I to a nice dark cave the other day where I must say it did well.


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## SafetyBob (Jan 4, 2009)

Just caught up with this thread. 

If you don't have any preference, and believe me I gave up on Cree due to availability......then go to Mouser 

http://www.mouser.com/catalog/636/96.pdf

and start looking at those LED's. I have personally used the 3.8 watt warm white and natural white extensively for home projects and the U bin version of the 6300K ones for flashlights. 

Here is my take very quickly on them driven off a Xitanium 17 watt transformer.......the natural white look really nice, white, and bright under a kitchen desk 2x leds per modified 2 light halogen fixture from lowes (less than 24" distance). 3 four foot flourescent fitures modified as uplights in den (alcove lighting?)with 6 natural white leds per fixture. Should have used 3 or 4 leds...to bright by a noticable margin but not bad. The more warm light leds would have worked better in dark wood paneled room. 

Undercounter in coffee/utility room (I have my espresso machines in here), I used warm leds to replace breaking cheap flourescent fixture. Again, used 6....resulted in slightly lower light level attributed to warmer temp compared to 18" flourescent fixtures from lowes (these were/are horrible cheap things made you know where). So I should have used 4000K under counter here instead.

Recap: For most applications except for some sort of mood lighting, I prefer the neutral white Seouls. The obvious reason is I can get them.....as much as I need and the price isn't to bad. 

I haven't tried any of the Archie direct AC powered leds yet, but give a little while and I will order a few. When you figure in a "real" transformer, they are only a few dollars more expensive that using 6 regular leds and a transformer. 

Bob E.


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## Archie Cruz (Jan 11, 2009)

gillestugan said:


> lol, why does these tint discussions always get so heated?
> It's much a matter of personal preference as people perceive colours differently. Especially in low light conditions.
> The brain will also to some level compensate the white balance, making all whites look about the same after some time regardless what tint it had from the beginning.



I found the paper that I was referring to. It's on a different forum. Is it Ok to link out of CPF or should I just copy and paste it.? People perceive colors differently? You mean color blind people or everyone else? I think unless one of us is color blind, we'll see teal the same way- we may just have different names for what we see


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## vestureofblood (Jan 11, 2009)

I don't know if links to other forum are ok or not but you have my attention


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## gillestugan (Jan 11, 2009)

Archie Cruz said:


> I found the paper that I was referring to. It's on a different forum. Is it Ok to link out of CPF or should I just copy and paste it.? People perceive colors differently? You mean color blind people or everyone else? I think unless one of us is color blind, we'll see teal the same way- we may just have different names for what we see



I mean normal people. Of course red is red and blue is blue unless you are colour blind, but I was talking about white balance and how we perceive different tints of white.

Go ahead and post the link, should be fine. Just don't embed someone else's pictures in the post.


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## Archie Cruz (Jan 16, 2009)

Here it is. Not sure if you have to join that forum to view it.
http://flashlight-forums.com/index.php?topic=353.msg15630#msg15630


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## phantom23 (Jan 20, 2009)

A few links to pictures (from this site) of different LEDs in action.
Cree 5A in Fenix TK20:
http://alteisen.blog.ocn.ne.jp/photos/uncategorized/2009/01/21/r0012630.jpg
MC-E 4C/D:
http://alteisen.blog.ocn.ne.jp/photos/uncategorized/2009/01/21/r0012623.jpg
Cree ~WC in NDI:
http://alteisen.blog.ocn.ne.jp/photos/uncategorized/2008/12/20/r0012528.jpg
Osram GDP in Nitecore Extreme:
http://alteisen.blog.ocn.ne.jp/photos/uncategorized/2009/01/03/r0012591.jpg

One bin higher than 5A (4500K instead of 4000K) makes really big difference. 3A is also very nice.


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## vestureofblood (Jan 20, 2009)

Its not easy to tell sometimes from pics, but I think the MC-E looks the best. Thanks for posting Phantom


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## phantom23 (Jan 21, 2009)

It's quite easy. Pictures were taken at the same camera settings (F2.5 ISO200 exposed 1s exposure) Cree WC and Golden Dragon are quite cold (as they suppose to be), 5A is yellow, 4C/D is somewhere between. And that's the most natural tint (as well as 3A).


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## Archie Cruz (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm new so what is a "MC-E 4C/D" ?
Thanks


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## xpea (Jan 24, 2009)

phantom23 said:


> It's quite easy. Pictures were taken at the same camera settings (F2.5 ISO200 exposed 1s exposure) Cree WC and Golden Dragon are quite cold (as they suppose to be), 5A is yellow, 4C/D is somewhere between. And that's the most natural tint (as well as 3A).


I fully agree !
I'm looking for 3A, 3D, 4A for long time without any success :shrug:
I don't like 5A and I always got greenish WH :thumbsdow


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## saabluster (Jan 24, 2009)

xpea said:


> I fully agree !
> I'm looking for 3A, 3D, 4A for long time without any success :shrug:
> I don't like 5A and I always got greenish WH :thumbsdow


Cutter has the 3A.


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## R33E8 (Jan 24, 2009)

Archie Cruz said:


> I'm new so what is a "MC-E 4C/D" ?
> Thanks



The MC-E is a 4 die LED that is made by CREE.. the 4C/D at the end is the bin code.. You can find the bin codes in this thread: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/156772
under Cree X-Lamp cool or warm white(this bin is under warm white)..

BTW.. You can also use the search tool to find all this out..:thumbsup:


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## xpea (Jan 24, 2009)

saabluster said:


> Cutter has the 3A.


Thx for the info mate, from his website seems a new release. I'm contacting him immediately :twothumbs


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## saabluster (Jan 24, 2009)

xpea said:


> Thx for the info mate, from his website seems a new release. I'm contacting him immediately :twothumbs


Not really a new release by now as he has had them for months.


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