# Spellman transfer punch set



## precisionworks (Apr 24, 2009)

The transfer punches from R L Spellman are the best that can be bought, but they're pricey ... over $60 for the 28 punch set that goes to 1/2". The difference in Spellman punches & the Chinese knock off is that Spellman uses tool steel & through hardens the punch so they can be repointed. Chinese punches are made from mild steel & case hardened - once they're dull (which takes no time at all) they're done.

Found an eBay store that has the set for *$10* plus shipping :thumbsup: My first purchase from this store, but only one negative with 512 positives.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Spellman-3-17-T...photoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

http://www.rlspellmanmfg.com/


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## modamag (Apr 24, 2009)

Spelman definitely make some really good xfer set.

The blind xfer set are available @ Enco (505-0436) for decent price.

I also really like my Heimann threaded blind xfer. You can pick these up on fleebay for a really reasonable rate.

Unless you're milling alot of rework stuff, these are ... just nice to have.


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## wquiles (Apr 24, 2009)

What is the difference between case hardened and through hardening?

How is each one done?

Will


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## precisionworks (Apr 24, 2009)

> What is the difference between case hardened and through hardening?



Case hardening (aka surface hardening) is a method that produces a hard but thin "case" on the outside of a mild steel part. Take any non-hardenable steel, like SAE1020 hot rolled, heat it red, dunk it in Kasenit, reheat red, dunk in cold water ... and the first .050" at the surface is now hardened to 65 HRc.

Through hardening requires a hardenable steel, like W1 or A2, which is brought to the transition temperature & then quenched. The material is the same hardness from surface to center.

For punches, this means that a through hardened item can be reground over & over. With a case hardened punch, the first attempt at grinding takes away all the case, leaving a dead soft tool which is good for nothing.

https://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=7626&title=KASENIT


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## SafetyBob (Apr 24, 2009)

Thanks for the link Barry!!

Been wanting a set forever, but never broke down to get one. It's nice to know the difference between the good stuff and the "other" stuff. 

Bob E.


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## wquiles (Apr 24, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> Case hardening (aka surface hardening) is a method that produces a hard but thin "case" on the outside of a mild steel part. Take any non-hardenable steel, like SAE1020 hot rolled, heat it red, dunk it in Kasenit, reheat red, dunk in cold water ... and the first .050" at the surface is now hardened to 65 HRc.
> 
> Through hardening requires a hardenable steel, like W1 or A2, which is brought to the transition temperature & then quenched. The material is the same hardness from surface to center.
> 
> ...



Awesome - thanks much for the detailed explanation :thumbsup:

By the way, I bought some W1 drill rod to experiment with the water hardening and oven quenching - what is the typical source to get the steel "red hot"? Would a simple propane torch be enough?

Will


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## precisionworks (Apr 24, 2009)

> Would a simple propane torch be enough?


A propane torch puts out enough heat for the smaller diameters, like 1/2" & under, and it doesn't take too long to get to the red stage. If you want to through harden, hold the flame on the W1 for a minute or two to make sure it is red hot to the center of the rod ... or just get the outside red & quench, which leaves a less hard but tougher center (for a striking tool like a punch or chisel).

As the size gets to 3/4" and above, a propane torch takes quite a while & a MAPP gas torch is better. Or a welding torch with a rosebud tip, if you have that.


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## wquiles (Apr 25, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> A propane torch puts out enough heat for the smaller diameters, like 1/2" & under, and it doesn't take too long to get to the red stage. If you want to through harden, hold the flame on the W1 for a minute or two to make sure it is red hot to the center of the rod ... or just get the outside red & quench, which leaves a less hard but tougher center (for a striking tool like a punch or chisel).
> 
> As the size gets to 3/4" and above, a propane torch takes quite a while & a MAPP gas torch is better. Or a welding torch with a rosebud tip, if you have that.



Right now I only have access to a propane torch, but I am dealing with 5/8", 1/2", and 1/8", so that should be enough for now 

By the way, remember that really big 1" boring bar with the round cutting bit? I mentioned earlier that I though that the cutting bit was a tad "soft". Now that I am playing with the drill rods I got from Enco, I realize that the so called cutting bit was simply a short length of 1/8" drill rod. Unfortunately it was never hardened, which is why I noted it was a tad soft while doing the inside boring, requiring frequent re-sharpening. Now with the "procedure" for through hardening at hand, I am really looking forward to using that boring bar, and making more of my own cutting bits for the lathe and mill 

Will


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## precisionworks (Apr 25, 2009)

> looking forward to using that boring bar, and making more of my own cutting bits


After a cold water quench, W1 is super hard ... 67 HRc, which a sharp, new file will not touch (sometimes called file skip hard). It would probably work fine for a boring tool where there's a continuous cut, as there are no shock loads or interrupted cuts. If you find that the point snaps off too easily, temper it back to 58-60 HRc by reheating with the torch until the steel justs starts to color brown or blue, and let air cool. A file will just cut that, and the tool will be tougher, but need more frequent sharpening.


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## wquiles (Apr 26, 2009)

Barry,

I am trying to put your good advice to action. This I ground a week or two ago. My very first hand ground, DIY cutting tool. This one a 60Deg external threading tool, made from 1/2" W1 drill rod.

Top:







Back:






Side profile:






And ready to try the through hardening!






Ready to start:






Starting to heat the steel:






Starting to get red hot:






and watter quenched:











I also did 3 new 1/8" tips for that 1" dia internal boring tool (original on far left), to try different things/angles/tips:











and after hardening (next to a 4xx CNMG insert designed for Aluminum for comparison):






I have not done yet the tempering - I want to try them first "extra hard". Sure enough, a Nicholson ******* file won't cut them - just barely removes the black soot from the finish!. 
One thing I love about these are the various colors in the shank - that looks really cool 


Although I got the angle fairly close, it is not aligned well with the shank's centerline, as the threads on this test piece are not even. Still, it was fun and cheap to learn something new. 
















Will


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## precisionworks (Apr 26, 2009)

Nice job ... those threads look great :thumbsup:

Tool steels, especially W1, are the easiest to harden, but some non tool steels can be hardened - any steel containing more than 25 carbon points will harden to some extent. 1144 Stressproof is nice for pry bars, heavy punches, bull pins, etc., since it doesn't get super hard (only 44 carbon points), but the resulting tool is tough as nails. 4140 Chrome Moly is similar.

Even mild steel, like 1018, can be case hardened with Kasenit - but the quench after the Kasenit coating is violent & sprays hot, dirty water everywhere. It does work where nothing else (safe) will do the job.


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## MoonRise (Apr 27, 2009)

Will,

Another (relatively) easy way to temper hardened steel is to use an oven.

You just put the hardened steel pieces in the oven, then turn the oven on and set the desired temperature, let 'bake' for the desired time at the desired temperature, turn off oven and let cool. Done.

This way you avoid guessing at what temperature you ended up heating the metal to when using a torch to temper.

W1? Try an oven temper at 350F for an hour. That should smoothly temper the steel to the high Rc 50's / low Rc 60's.

The higher the tempering temperature, the lower the hardness of the steel will be. The lower the hardness of the steel, the tougher it will be (than the same steel at a higher hardness).

In general, hardness > brittleness. So hard means brittle and brittle can snap/crack/shatter at failure.

Toughness means the steel "yields" instead of snapping/shattering. Yes, the quotes mean something as I am listing a definition for "yield". Yield means the steel bends and deforms instead of snapping.



Also, I would suggest getting a slightly larger water container than the CoolWhip and make it metal as well. A larger metal coffee or food can is common. You avoid possibly melting or burning the plastic.


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## Anglepoise (Apr 27, 2009)

wquiles said:


> Although I got the angle fairly close, it is not aligned well with the shank's centerline, as the threads on this test piece are not even.
> Will



Your tool looks great and the tiny angle deviation from 60° should not be making the threads uneven as in the pic. Odd.


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## precisionworks (Apr 27, 2009)

> A larger metal coffee or food can is common. You avoid possibly melting or burning the plastic.


Before W1, my most used tool steel was O1, which requires a warm oil quench. The container was one of those red, Folgers, plastic jars that coffee comes in, probably two quarts. A red hot bar of O1 was plunged into the oil, which immediately caught fire.

Went to a metal can after that


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## MoonRise (Apr 27, 2009)

Ahh, Barry, you had the fun of red-hot metal PLUS oil PLUS a plastic container.

 is right!


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## PEU (Apr 27, 2009)

Last week I needed to sharpen a bit to 38 degrees, and I was presented with the proper tool for the job, an UNIVERSAL BEVEL PROTRACTOR:






I fell in love with it  so after looking a little I found a HK dealer that stocks it at a decent price: http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-140/320-DEGREE-UNIVERSAL-BEVEL/Detail 
Then looked at their site and made an interesting list of tools I will be purchasing.

The interesting note is that I wanted an item not listed in their store (a R8 boring head set) so I asked Heine, the shop owner, if he can search one so I can purchase all the items I want from the same dealer and save time and shipping charges. He happily agreed to search for one, asked me for a couple of weeks until he returns to HK but he was willing to help me.
So... in about a month I will have a nice set of tools and stuff  can't wait (but I learned to...)


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Apr 27, 2009)

Pablo,

That is a beautiful protractor ... I can't believe they sell for $23.00 :thumbsup:


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## wquiles (Apr 27, 2009)

You guys will have to show me additional pictures of how exactly you use such a contraption :devil:

Will


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## PEU (Apr 28, 2009)

The protractor is actually two removable parts, the curved part and a 90 deg piece (there is also an extender but it does not add to the explanation)
Take a look at the pic:






Yellow is a removable extension
Blue is also removable, you can put the short part facing up to form different angles.
Red is the protractor (duh) if you click on the image from the seller site you will see an oversized photo, you will see that each division is marked with different angles, for example: 50/140/230/320
Black arrow allows you to fix the protractor at the desired angle
Light green arrow allows you to fix the 90 degrees angle into place.
Your angle is measured between dark green sides


Pablo


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## StrikerDown (Apr 28, 2009)

Great explanation Pablo, Now stamp a Starrett on it and you can sell it for $923.00


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## wquiles (Apr 28, 2009)

PEU said:


> The protractor is actually two removable parts, the curved part and a 90 deg piece (there is also an extender but it does not add to the explanation)
> Take a look at the pic:
> 
> 
> ...



Ahh (exclaimed the young apprentice upon seeing the light); now I get it 

Will
(now realizing that is in fact an useful tool that will soon have to be acquired!)


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## gadget_lover (Apr 28, 2009)

The only part that was not explained was the vernier on the left side that gives you very precise readings.

Daniel


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## bluepilgrim (Apr 28, 2009)

For heating pieces to harden, a swirl propane torch is better that the standard Bernzomatic sort, but a real help is to make a little 'muffle furnace' by piling up a few fire bricks. The soft brick is better since they are less conductive, but the ordinary ones available to make a fireplace will work. Just make up a little 'tunnel' to enclose the piece in, with a door to point the torch into. Watch what you are doing -- it's not hard to get the piece too hot. Also remember the bricks will get hot, even if they don't look it, so set them on a nonflammable surface, and don't touch them carelessly.


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## StrikerDown (Apr 28, 2009)

bluepilgrim said:


> For heating pieces to harden, a swirl propane torch is better that the standard Bernzomatic sort, but a real help is to make a little 'muffle furnace' by piling up a few fire bricks. The soft brick is better since they are less conductive, but the ordinary ones available to make a fireplace will work. Just make up a little 'tunnel' to enclose the piece in, with a door to point the torch into. Watch what you are doing -- it's not hard to get the piece too hot. Also remember the bricks will get hot, even if they don't look it, so set them on a nonflammable surface, and don't touch them carelessly.




Also put bricks under the brick pile... I have heard that you should never use a torch on concrete. Something about the moisture in the concrete casing it to pop!


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## brickbat (Apr 28, 2009)

wquiles said:


> ... This one a 60Deg external threading tool, made from 1/2" W1 drill rod....



Maybe this is a dumb question, but why mess around with heat-treatable alloys, when a common bench grinder will grind HSS M-2 or Cobalt tool bits just fine, and they need no subsequent heat treating?

I use these:

http://www.wttool.com/category-exec/category_id/15882

Oh, and at the risk of putting this thread back on topic,  thanks to the OP for the tip on the Spellman punch set. Snagged two for $9 a pop... Just arrived today. Nice.


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## precisionworks (Apr 28, 2009)

M2 has been used for tools for many years, and will harden to around 65 Rc ... but it is not delivered in the hardened state. It will cut mild steel in the annealed (as delivered) condition.

M42 Cobalt is a great improvement over M2, and maintains good toughness to 68 Rc ... but again, it is delivered in the annealed condition.

You can use W1 as delivered, and it has about the same hardness as M2 or M42. It has less wear resistance than either M2 or M42, but it's ten times easier to shop harden with nothing but a propane torch & a bucket of water. Like M2 & M42, W1 can be used in the as delivered condition.


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## bluepilgrim (Apr 28, 2009)

StrikerDown said:


> Also put bricks under the brick pile... I have heard that you should never use a torch on concrete. Something about the moisture in the concrete casing it to pop!


 
Yeah -- good idea to make sure the fire bricks are dry too, although the soft ones especially are fairly porous. Concrete will disintegrate under high heat, I think, and can be cut with a torch -- all with hot pieces popping off all over. Then there are the 'wet rock in the campfire' incidents... 

I've played around with a lot of this sort of stuff (forging, hardening) -- even made a little furnace out of resistance wire and asbestos cement that burned through a piece of hardwood when I got the wattage wrong. All of it primitive, including putting the output of a vaccum cleaner into a bed of hot charcoal for a simple forge furnace. 

Forging is actually a pretty quick and effective way to make tools, even if it takes a bit of grinding or such afterwards to get the shape right, using carbon or oil hardening steels. I only used air hardening once or twice, bought in the annealed state, but that was all grinding and cutting, lacking a decent furnace. Drill rod is good stuff for this, although it won't hold up to the heat for some machining uses -- and you can find some decent steels as parts of old junk or worn out auto parts (such as push rods). Still, forging and swaging can save you a bit of money (always an important consideration for me), especially for one-time or special purpose work. It's a good thing to have in your 'bag of tricks', and tool making is a lot of fun.


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## bluepilgrim (Apr 29, 2009)

brickbat said:


> Maybe this is a dumb question, but why mess around with heat-treatable alloys, when a common bench grinder will grind HSS M-2 or Cobalt tool bits just fine, and they need no subsequent heat treating?
> [...]


 
One reason I've done it is the only 'machine' I have is a drill press so I can't do fancy lathe or milling, but I've still been able to make special files, broaches, reamers, scrapers, chisels, punches, gauges, etc. which I could use to do the work by hand. Even with machinery, however, you sometimes need special tooling, and being able to forge or bend and then heat treat can do the job. I did have an acetylene torch at one point, and used it to lay down some layers of hard steel to build up a cutting surface on rod. If you can work with hot steel you can make just about any sort of tool you need -- especially if the piece you are working on is soft, like aluminum. You can forge or bend a cheap concrete nail, a high quality Allen or machine screw, or an old file to make a tool more than good enough for cutting aluminum in a just a few minutes, for virtually free.


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## brickbat (Apr 29, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> M2 has been used for tools for many years, and will harden to around 65 Rc ... but it is not delivered in the hardened state.



Really?

You mean tool bits like this:

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1152&category=1208242246

are sold in the annealed state?


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## precisionworks (Apr 29, 2009)

> You mean tool bits like thishttp://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1152&category=1208242246 () are sold in the annealed state?


There is one sure way to tell ... take a new, sharp Nicholson file & stroke across the bar. A file will not cut anything above 60-62 Rc, which means that a file will not bite if the hardness is 60-62 Rc or greater.


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## brickbat (Apr 29, 2009)

The file did not 'bite' into my cheap Chinese M2 tool bits. It left a surface that was somewhat burnished or polished looking, but no bite...

It did, however, bite into the shank of one of the Spellman punches I just received.


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## gadget_lover (Apr 29, 2009)

The dsscription said the working end was hardened. The shaft will be softer to keep it from being brittle.

Daniel


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## brickbat (Apr 29, 2009)

Agreed.

Spellman's website says

"Induction hardened and tempered to RC 61-63 approximately 1-1/2" from point"

I checked it about 1/4" back from the point and the file won. 


So, I conclude that these Chinese M2 bits are pretty hard. Certainly harder than the punches. And about the same as my file.


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