# Time to get another weapon! BUT WHAT!?



## Sgt. LED (Dec 9, 2009)

You ever get the fever for something new that goes bang but can't even come close to making up your mind? 
I need suggestions for stuff I haven't thought of or some love/hate for the 3 I put down. But please try to not start fighting about your favorites! Don't talk about hurting people. *Basically don't TRY to get the thread locked!!!!*

I'd like a Sig 556 (_want to try a piston designed AR not a kit or conversion_) or a Springfield M1A Scout Squad (_I always wanted one but_ _are they in stock ANYWHERE?_) or maybe a FN SLP (_it's really past time for a good semi-auto 12ga around here_). :thinking:
I have a Rock River Ar-15 I made, a Veper K AK that's very solid, a Mini-30 that's fun to knock around with, a Beretta CX4 Storm in .40 that looks like a sci-fi gun but it's really a handy little carbine, and a Moss 500 8 shot persuader that looks quite different from what it started as among several other things locked away. I guess I don't really _need_ any of the 3 I've listed but they sure do look real nice! 

I am in the mood for semi-auto and either a rifle or shotgun will do. Caliber 223 and up for rifle and 12Ga 3" shells for shotgun. Around 18 inch barrel on either would be good. No wood stocks thank you! Price limit would be around 2G and it's going on my CC but cheaper is great as long as it's still high quality.  Nothing too exotic as I would like to have this here at home in a month or two and the real new/cool stuff usually takes a long time to get.

I DO know I have the handgun options all wrapped up about twice over and I'm not looking for another one right now.


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## StarHalo (Dec 9, 2009)

This is the only one that's held my interest since I found out about it..


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## Dances with Flashlight (Dec 9, 2009)

There certainly are tons of options to choose from in the areas you've mentioned, and new ones seem to come out every time you turn around. I am sure others will be able to post some good suggestions. But with the possible exception of the 30.06 M1, I can't imagine anything that would in any way be significantly better than the M1A Scout. It's handy and well designed, rock solid with a proven action, and you can never really go wrong with a .308.

Semper Fi.


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## Anto (Dec 9, 2009)

M14 platform with a JAE stock

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/364/jae100da4.jpg

soo nice. the stock is >$700 with the options IIRC


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## ducat (Dec 9, 2009)

I used to own a Franchi SPAS12 until they were made illegal over here. Great fun for blowing huge holes in things, especially with .72 cal rifled slugs!:devil:

Just found out they stopped manufacturing them, and banned import into the States. probably worth a fortune now, if you can find one.


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## LightCannon (Dec 9, 2009)

Not sure if you can find one of these around, but the TPD AXR looks very interesting.

http://world.guns.ru/civil/civ020-e.htm


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## KD5XB (Dec 9, 2009)

Wow, as soon as I started to read the OP, I thought I knew the answer -- M1 Garand in .30-06 -- then I read the thing about "no wood stocks". Gee, that Garand is my selection for EVERYTHING.

But no wood stocks leaves so much out -- perhaps you could find a Winchester Model 70 with a synthetic stock, but I don't know if they market such a beast, but the Model 70 is "The Rifleman's Rifle", so you might take a look. I'd suggest in .270, but that's probably because that's what I grew up with.


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## swtxtitan (Dec 9, 2009)

All I have to say is Benelli MR1, forget everything else.
http://www.benelliusa.com/rifles/benelli_mr1_self_defense_rifle.php


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 9, 2009)

OH I've got an A bolt II stainless 30.06. It's quite nice! 

Let's just say I'm in the mood for for tactical.


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## DaFABRICATA (Dec 9, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Let's just say I'm in the mood for for tactical.


 



In that case, how 'bout the Remington MSR?

http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/msr.htm

I'm currently saving up for one...might have to sell a body part as I'm running outta flashlights to help fund it.


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## CoachNed (Dec 9, 2009)

Seems like the Benelli MR-1 oughta be on your short list. Cheaper than the SIG 556 and with a very interesting new gas action--

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/beretta556carbine.jpg


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## LukeA (Dec 9, 2009)

DaFABRICATA said:


> In that case, how 'bout the Remington MSR?
> 
> http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/msr.htm
> 
> I'm currently saving up for one...might have to sell a body part as I'm running outta flashlights to help fund it.





That said, I would go for either the SLP (I almost bought one) or the M1A Scout Squad. If you get the Scout Squad, you pretty much have to get a JPoint Micro or Trijicon MRD, the way the rifle is photographed for the 09 SA catalog.


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## DoctaDink (Dec 9, 2009)

How 'bout one of these:twothumbs:
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF022&gid=FNG007&mid=FNM0108


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## Mjolnir (Dec 9, 2009)

DoctaDink said:


> How 'bout one of these:twothumbs:
> http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF022&gid=FNG007&mid=FNM0108




No, this:
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF009&gid=FNG006&mid=FNM0154
Although throwing a long barrel on the front of a P90 sort of negates the whole point of the "bullpup" configuration...


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## QtrHorse (Dec 9, 2009)

I really wanted one of those Sig 556 models until I held one in my hands. It felt cheap and toyish but that is just my opinion. 

I know you said tactical but I have been interested in one of the newer .22 assault rifle platforms for plinking around and some cheap fun shooting. I can't make up my mind on which one I want to purchase though.


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## Vesper (Dec 9, 2009)

I've been wanting one of Robinson Armament's XCR (I noticed you have a Veper) for a long time. Have you considered it? I just noticed though that their prices have really gone up after all the demand of late. I guess I shouldn't have waited. Yea, go piston all the way.


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## LukeA (Dec 9, 2009)

Mjolnir said:


> No, this:
> http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF009&gid=FNG006&mid=FNM0154
> Although throwing a long barrel on the front of a P90 sort of negates the whole point of the "bullpup" configuration...



Uncle Sam will let you cut the barrel if you pay him his $200.


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## terrik_zion (Dec 9, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> This is the only one that's held my interest since I found out about it..



Is that a photoshopped image, or for real? If real, what in the world is it? It looks awesome!


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## LukeA (Dec 9, 2009)

terrik_zion said:


> Is that a photoshopped image, or for real? If real, what in the world is it? It looks awesome!



According to the image name (I can't see the image). It's the Kriss Super-V, a real .45ACP caliber SMG. There's a Title I version available.


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## StarHalo (Dec 9, 2009)

terrik_zion said:


> Is that a photoshopped image, or for real? If real, what in the world is it? It looks awesome!



LukeA has it correct, it's a TDI Kriss Super V, a .45 ACP SMG with their unique action/mechanism; 60% less recoil and 95% less muzzle climb than similar designs, 1" groupings at 25m from a 5.5" barrel. Uses the same magazine as a Glock 21 and you can swap from between the two, plus there's an optional extension kit for 30-round capacity. Only 16" folded, 5.6 lbs, government/military version is 1100 rounds per minute. Named "Best ever SMG" by _Guns & Weapons For Law Enforcement _magazine, chosen #1 CQB weapon by the Military Channel, and named one of Popular Science's 100 Best Innovations Of The Year.


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## da.gee (Dec 10, 2009)

I love those Scouts and SOCOMs. How about about a .308 CETME (based on G3)? My Dad has one with wood furniture but I've seen them also with synthetic. Pretty classic IMO and relatively reasonable. You'd have more leftover for flashlights.

Are you shooting at anything in particular or just shooting?


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 10, 2009)

Just making holes at high speed. 
_I am not planning on shooting anything in particular and don't want to get into caliber effectiveness, home defense, or lethality discussions. Those will lead to thread closure eventually I am certain._ 

The SCAR 16S looks nice but I agree with the guy that said: _The thing better be hand-carved from unicorn horn and lubed with angel tears at that price…_ And I'm not sure if it's magazines are proprietary. That would make it even worse! Now if the budget was double then I would probably like it enough to seek out one to play with.

TDI Kriss Super V, too much of a hassle to get a hold of and it's too ray gun for me. But hey, to each their own!

.308 CETME is a bit rougher than I want to buy right now. Honestly I trick out everything I get but I'd like to start out a bit closer to the finish line this time around. And do you shoot regular 308 out of it or not? I read yes and no.

P90 is neat and my dealer has 1 sitting there but the ammo is really expensive. Still it IS worth taking another look at since I can hold it and all. Not had a bullpup so,_ maybe_. Anyone handle one?

Remington MSR looks uber tactical but I am not a sniper. And I don't want to be really. WV does not have great expanses of open ground for me to take advantage of it. One day I'll be back into long range bolt actions but not now.

The Sig 556 has been found and played with a bit in the shop and I thought the stock had too much play in it when folded and not locked onto the peg. And I didn't think it felt like a toy but the Al 4 rail version was a bit too front heavy for my tastes. I'd like it to balance further back because I KNOW I will be hanging stuff off the front end, no sense making it worse from the start right? Other than that it seemed OK. Not as keen on getting one now but firing it could change my mind.

Benelli MR-1 OK the front end looks EXACTLY like my Beretta Storm. I find that a hair disturbing but I understand Benelli and Beretta, one is owned by the other. Not a fan of the downward angle that stock takes either. A bit too steep a grade, *can it be changed aftermarket?!* If it shoots like the Storm I _could_ be happy especially since it can take my 99 round drum mag. HMmmmmmm Has anyone here had trigger time with it, I need more info.

TPD AXR looks neat, again I have never had a bullpup design. I think I could like it really. The price is a bit steep from what I just saw though. Maybe I will look into it a bit more if I find one under 2G.

M1A Scout *still* sounds good but nobody has them. My local guy said maybe 8 months.  That JAE stock looks interesting and it would sure be the most expensive furniture I've ever gottten! If I find a Scout I'll keep it in mind though.

SPAS 12 was not good, I shot one years ago and did not care for it. It's be so long ago I can't remember what I didn't like actually! 
Not much in the way of shotgun talk, are they not cool enough for you guys? LOL!


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## StarHalo (Dec 10, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> TDI Kriss Super V, too much of a hassle to get a hold of and it's too ray gun for me.



Bubba don't shoot no ray guns..







(but from the remaining list, the P90 is my second fave behind the Kriss, especially with the 50 round magazine. And shotgun-wise, I always thought the Remington 11-87 had potential, but being a high-capacity guy, you'd probably like something X-Rail compatible for 23-round entertainment..)


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## Patriot (Dec 10, 2009)

The Beretta CX4 is an underrated little gun and handles very well.


I'd stay on your M1A plan but definitely take an open minded peak at the Microtech MSAR. They shoot wonderfully and sort of feel like the big sister version of the CX4. Much nicer than the older Steyr imo, and everything that the Steyr wasn't.


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## DoctaDink (Dec 10, 2009)

I've thought it would be fun to have a Saiga-12 shotgun.
(the Kalashikov style semi-auto, clip fed shotgun). Great for defense against Zombies


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## 1wrx7 (Dec 10, 2009)

QtrHorse said:


> I really wanted one of those Sig 556 models until I held one in my hands. It felt cheap and toyish but that is just my opinion.
> 
> I know you said tactical but I have been interested in one of the newer .22 assault rifle platforms for plinking around and some cheap fun shooting. I can't make up my mind on which one I want to purchase though.


 

I agree with everything in the quote above. The Sig is very nice but not what I was looking for. 

As for tactical .22's I would recomend looking into the GSG5 carbine. It's basicly a HK MP5 in .22:naughty: There is a problem though... HK thinks GSG did too good of a job copying the MP5 and they're sueing GSG and the importer. They should be $500-$600 but some places online already have them marked up to $1700-$2000 I called a local gunshop today to see if they had any left in stock, but no luck.... I should have bought one as soon as my co-worker brought his in to show offIf you can find one locally for a good price I would recomend scooping it up.

With the list you provided you have most of the bases covered:thumbsup: Your idea on the SOCOM is rock solid. Sounds like a semi auto in a larger caliber would fill out the collection... and you can find 7.62mm ammo for decent prices right now. I got to play with a SOCOM at one of the local shops... OH BOY:twothumbs Since I have a Garand in .30-06 I decided to pick up a DPMS AR-10 in 7.62mm instead... I can't help it, I love the versitility of the AR platform.

If you like the P90 design look around more for ammo. I've been seeing decent deals on the 5.7mm ammo... at least better deals than I've seen on .223 ammo:shrug:.

Enjoy the new purchace...


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## Patriot (Dec 10, 2009)

1wrx7 said:


> Since I have a Garand in .30-06 I decided to pick up a DPMS AR-10 in 7.62mm instead... I can't help it, I love the versitility of the AR platform.




IMHO, the DPMS is the most underrated of the AR platforms. The value to performance ratio is through the roof on the DPMS. This being said by a guy who shoots custom ARs, like JP enterprises. I've also owned Colt, S&W, Bushmaster, Rock River and ASA. You did good with the DPMS man.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Dec 10, 2009)

I've had my eye on a Kel-Tec RFB for awhile. Once it has a few more owner reports behind it and the 32" target model becomes available..................

:buddies:


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## 1wrx7 (Dec 11, 2009)

I found a GSG-5 in stock at another shop in my area... I'll be picking it up tomorrow And it is priced properly, not the crazy mark up:thumbsup:


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## da.gee (Dec 11, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Just making holes at high speed.
> 
> .308 CETME is a bit rougher than I want to buy right now. Honestly I trick out everything I get but I'd like to start out a bit closer to the finish line this time around. And do you shoot regular 308 out of it or not? I read yes and no.



I thought of it's "roughness" after I posted. It is definitely and old school piece. I believe there have been some concerns about commercial .308 ammo but not 7.62x51 NATO. 

Nothing wrong with making holes. Hours of entertainment! And of course YOU would trick it out. This is fun spending your money. :devil:


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## blasterman (Dec 11, 2009)

AR-10 or Bushmaster .308


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## The Dane (Dec 11, 2009)

Sorry sir but that rifle is as pretty as a turd on a boil in Hilary Clintons face 




DaFABRICATA said:


> In that case, how 'bout the Remington MSR?
> 
> http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/msr.htm
> 
> I'm currently saving up for one...might have to sell a body part as I'm running outta flashlights to help fund it.


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## 1wrx7 (Dec 11, 2009)

da.gee said:


> This is fun spending your money. :devil:


 
Let's change your budget a bit:naughty: and throw out the name Barrett:devil: Maybe something in .50BMG The arms in your avatar should be able to handle the weight of that beast. The good gunshop right in my area always has one sitting out on the counter for everyone to drool over. You know you want one Sarge

OK back on topic... I've wondered about the Saiga 12ga too. There used to be another shotgun, I think it was called the USA12. It looked like an AR, but chambered for 12ga The Saiga seems to be the only option for magazine fed shotguns these days. I've never shot one so I have no real opinion on them... except I love the concept:thumbsup: 

I can't wait to see what you end up with. I'm also having a hard time believing it will take 8mo. to get a SOCOM in stock:shrug: Are there any other shops who may have other dealer contacts you haven't tried yet?


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## StarHalo (Dec 11, 2009)

1wrx7 said:


> Let's change your budget a bit:naughty: and throw out the name Barrett:devil: Maybe something in .50BMG



Let's ask Kari, she'll shoot anything..


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 12, 2009)

Well as long as it's under 300 pounds I guess I could shoulder it...............

Who's chipping in on the price difference?


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## Patriot (Dec 12, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Well as long as it's under 300 pounds I guess I could shoulder it...............




So, have you gotten any closer to picking one?


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## KD5XB (Dec 12, 2009)

I remember reading about an AR-15 or M-16 or something, that was chambered for either .243 or .308 -- but that was 30+ years ago. I GUESS they got it built -- might be an interesting thing to shoot.


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 13, 2009)

1wrx7 said:


> I can't wait to see what you end up with. I'm also having a hard time believing it will take 8mo. to get a SOCOM in stock:shrug:


 Oh I'm sure it was just his way of pushing me to buy something he already had in stock.

Still looking..........................


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## 1wrx7 (Dec 13, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Oh I'm sure it was just his way of pushing me to buy something he already had in stock.
> 
> Still looking..........................


 
I meant to check if the shop I want to yesterday had any SOCOM's in stock The place was packed and we were already running late and I forgot. I did a quick check online and they do seem to be out of stock everywhere, maybe the guy is telling the truth:sigh: Looking at them again today online reminded me what a nice package the SOCOM's are. I hope you can find one. On the other hand you could pick up both of these under budget and still have money left for ammo. Granted they won't compare if you really want the SOCOM






DPMS LR308AP4 and a GSG-5 carbine. Note, the DPMS doesn't come with the scope or mount, but it does come with a detatchable rear sight.


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## Hitthespot (Dec 13, 2009)

The ZF-1 Gun. Good for Rightys and Leftys!


http://www.videosift.com/video/Fifth-Element-Zorg-demonstrates-the-ZF-1-gun

Bill


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## Patriot (Dec 13, 2009)

The GSG looks great 1wrx7. I imagine that the stocks are probably stronger than they feel. You had mentioned that they felt cheap but they probably wanted to keep it light weight.


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## vtunderground (Dec 14, 2009)

Some shotgun ideas:

Benelli M4 - http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli_m4.php
The Benelli M2 is still available in a tactical version too.


Mossberg 930 - http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=32&section=products


Remington briefly made their 11-87 with an 18" barrel & magazine extension. If you can find it, that should be a decent gun.


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## Sway (Dec 14, 2009)

I had the itch for something a little different awhile back and picked up a CZ import Sa VZ58 Sporter. While it looks like and AK it’s a very different animal and shares nothing with it other than the 7.62x39 round. After market support is growing for it and spare parts are easy to find www.czechpoint-usa.com is a good source. 

Clone receivers are available some work good and some don’t just stay with the true import D-Technic receiver and you will be happy, CZ-USA link http://cz-usa.com/products/view/vz-58-tactical-sporter/ 

VZ-58 Tactical Sporter and Colt LE6920 M4






This rifle is definitely worth a look and doing some research on 

Later
Kelly


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## QtrHorse (Dec 14, 2009)

1wrx7 said:


> I found a GSG-5 in stock at another shop in my area... I'll be picking it up tomorrow And it is priced properly, not the crazy mark up:thumbsup:


 
I almost bought one today but a good friend mentioned that one of our mutual friends had a S&W M&P15-22 and really liked it. He is going to let me shoot it this weekend. I really like the look and heavy barrel of the M&P .22 plus I can get one cheaper than the GSG-5. 

Either way I now know what my next weapon will be, a tactical .22.


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## 1wrx7 (Dec 15, 2009)

I was looking at the S&W .22 and the Colt versions. If I couldn't get the GSG I would have bought one of those without question. Since I have a couple of AR's already I wanted the look/feel of the MP5. I just read an article about the S&W and they were very positive about it. Let us know what you think when you shoot it.


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## blasterman (Dec 15, 2009)

Pesonally I'm bored with the .22 / .223 / 5.56×45 firing guns. You can only put so many pencil thick holes through targets at 3000fps before wanting to move on. Also, the classic AR 'ker-chung' feel of the recoil starts to feel toy-ish after awhile. 

For this reason I find the 9mm guns a lot more fun to shoot. They might not have the 'phaser-rifle' accuracy and penetration at 200meters, but so what.

As for 7.62 x 39, I'm simply not an AK fan and prefer a well built *Russian* SKS. However, the VZ-58 looks like a lot of fun to shoot without feeling like your rounds are tumbling end over end like they do with an AK-47.


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## Fenris (Dec 15, 2009)

KD5XB said:


> I remember reading about an AR-15 or M-16 or something, that was chambered for either .243 or .308 -- but that was 30+ years ago. I GUESS they got it built -- might be an interesting thing to shoot.



The AR-10 shoots 308.


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## LukeA (Dec 15, 2009)

KD5XB said:


> I remember reading about an AR-15 or M-16 or something, that was chambered for either .243 or .308 -- but that was 30+ years ago. I GUESS they got it built -- might be an interesting thing to shoot.



Stoner's design for what would become the M-16 was originally chambered in .308. So there was a .308 M-16 before there ever was a .223//5.56 one.


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## LukeA (Dec 15, 2009)

blasterman said:


> Pesonally I'm bored with the .22 / .223 / 5.56×45 firing guns. You can only put so many pencil thick holes through targets at 3000fps before wanting to move on. Also, the classic AR 'ker-chung' feel of the recoil starts to feel toy-ish after awhile.



It's not "AR-style," if anything it's "Garand-style" or "gas-operated-rifle-style." Guns were ker-chunging well before the AR-15, although putting the bolt return spring right next to the face ("now with extra vibration!") is an AR/M-16 idea.


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## Patriot (Dec 16, 2009)

blasterman said:


> Pesonally I'm bored with the .22 / .223 / 5.56×45 firing guns. You can only put so many pencil thick holes through targets at 3000fps before wanting to move on. Also, the classic AR 'ker-chung' feel of the recoil starts to feel toy-ish after awhile.
> 
> For this reason I find the 9mm guns a lot more fun to shoot. They might not have the 'phaser-rifle' accuracy and penetration at 200meters, but so what.
> 
> As for 7.62 x 39, I'm simply not an AK fan and prefer a well built *Russian* SKS. However, the VZ-58 looks like a lot of fun to shoot without feeling like your rounds are tumbling end over end like they do with an AK-47.





You've pretty much just eliminated any rifle round, since most are under 9mm diameter and travel at high velocity and exchanged it for one specific and un-energetic (from a relative standoint) pistol caliber. If a 9mm hole is that much fun for you I was just thinking that you'd really enjoy throwing rocks at cardboard boxes. 

I just thought that was an very different way of looking at it since a semi-auto 9mm carbine essentially sounds and feels more anemic than any .223 rifle while also having less effect on reactive targets such as cans and bottles, due to having less energy. Speaking of phaser accuracy, a 9mm carbine is still capable of 3-4" groups at 100 yards but I'm also not sure why you would find inaccuracy satisfying even if the 9mm was indeed inaccurate, which it isn't, just slower. 

With regards to the AK-47, I've never experienced "feeling like rounds are tumbling end over end" and can't even guess what you may be speaking of. The round itself is traveling close to 2300fps and is at least as accurate as the 9mm that you enjoy, although you didn't mention what 9mm firearm you're referring too, only the caliber itself which left me baffled. I'm not yet trying to say that you've been wrong about anything, only trying to understand what language you're speaking since my experiences have been nothing like yours. :thinking:


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## blasterman (Dec 17, 2009)

> You've pretty much just eliminated any rifle round, since most are under 9mm diameter and travel at high velocity


 
Who cares what other guns shoot? A subsonic .22 shell makes a much bigger hole in 1/8" sheet metal than a 5.56×45. So does a 50cal. Does this conclude a 50cal and a .22 have similiar energy levels? Uh, no.



> a semi-auto 9mm carbine essentially sounds and feels more anemic than any .223 rifle while also having less effect on reactive targets such as cans and bottles, due to having less energy.


 
Stop shooting cans and bottles.  One of our favorite targets is bowling pins because they'll tolerate much more abuse being made out of hard maple and dense plastic. At 200meters you can hit a standing bowling pin dead center with a M-16 and often it just wobbles because the cross section of the round is so small compared to it's velocity. They round just leaves a burnt scorch on the plastic and a little hole, and keeps on going. The pin just wobbles. 

A bowling pin hit with a 9mm at 200meters get knocked over, and more damage is done, but the round won't penetrate through the wood and plastic. If I switch to hunting rounds in my SKS or my buddies AK we shred it much faster than a 5.56×45. When we start lighting up with the FN-FALs and .308 things get messy fast and we run out of pins. Now, given it's the holidays, frozen turkeys are hoot with .308 and hollow points, but that's if you don't have to clean up the mess.

Simply put, a good deal of the energy in 5.56×45 round is wasted because it's designed to tumble, break, and hopefully hit a vital organ. For under 100meters in a combat situation I'll take 9mm. For over 200meters .308. It's ironic because we have a lot of Vietnam vets in our little gun group, and they aren't fans of the M-16.

Which brings me to another gripe about the M-16, and that's the classic round/oval shot groupings of the thing due to improperly dampened 'mattel action' recoil. Only a few people gripe about this...guess it's due to flag waving or something.

In contrast to this is the rare Daewoo K2 my co-worker has, and even though the K2 fires the same 5.56×45 and even takes M-16 clips the difference in firing characteristics vs the M-16 is astounding. Rather than the vague, spongy recoil of the M-16 the K2 has a solid recoil with short but tight muzzle rise, and open sight shot groupings that are scary. Groupings with the K2 are tight horizontally with more variance vertically, which is on purpose given that's the kind of target you want to hit in fire-fight. Novices we've brough to the range who've never handled a fire-arm before make 2-3" shot grouping at 100meters on 62 grain Wolf. Then they try the M-16. Then they insist on the K2 because the M-16 'feels lame'.

If I'm shooting seriously with a AR/M-16 I prefer to take it all the way and use the longest barrel I can because it feels better balanced and groupings are tighter. Those shorty Bushmasters are the biggest pieces of junk you can own unless you actually like setting grass on fire. However, the K2 is flat out the deadliest and most precise open sight infantry rifle I've ever fired.



> Speaking of phaser accuracy, a 9mm carbine is still capable of 3-4" groups at 100 yards


 
I have a 9mm Highpoint carbine, and that's on a bad day. As for bullet speed, we have a velocity meter we take to the range now and then and the HighPoint always scores within about 100fps of the AKs. I've also never been bested by an AK shooter in terms of shot groupings with the 9mm either. So, I'm having a hard time concluding what's so inferiour about the 9mm given my cheap HighPoint seems just as accurate, cheaper, legal, similiar muzzle velocity, and doesn't sound like wet frying pans trying to mate when you fire it. Otherwise the AK is a great weapon, as long as the opposing army is also using AK's, or rocks. 



> With regards to the AK-47, I've never experienced "feeling like rounds are tumbling end over end" and can't even guess what you may be speaking of.


 
All AKs we've owned and fired are notorious for leaving oval holes on target sheets more than any other gun (save for Bushmaster ARs with midget barrels). Even my clunky Chinese SKS doesn't do that. The barrel starts to warp after 3-4 rounds and groupings mave half a foot, but they're round holes 

The issue here is that so many countries make the AK and have so many variants that not all of them are designed to have a pound of wet mud sloshed in the receiver. Better made receivers, and I forgot what country does this, are tighter. We've just never run across one. The decent Russian SKS in our group though is a far more accurate weapon with the same round, but it's obviously designed for different purposes. An AR-10 with sniper/heavy barrel (or AR-30 with Lapua .338) is my dream gun right now, but the first time I'd need parts for I'd be filing bankruptcy.


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## LukeA (Dec 18, 2009)

blasterman said:


> even takes M-16 clips



Magazines. And so do lots of guns.


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## Patriot (Dec 18, 2009)

> blasterman said:
> 
> 
> > Who cares what other guns shoot? A subsonic .22 shell makes a much bigger hole in 1/8" sheet metal than a 5.56×45. So does a 50cal. Does this conclude a 50cal and a .22 have similiar energy levels? Uh, no.
> ...


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## vtunderground (Dec 18, 2009)

Sway said:


> I had the itch for something a little different awhile back and picked up a CZ import Sa VZ58 Sporter. While it looks like and AK it’s a very different animal and shares nothing with it other than the 7.62x39 round. After market support is growing for it and spare parts are easy to find www.czechpoint-usa.com is a good source.
> 
> Clone receivers are available some work good and some don’t just stay with the true import D-Technic receiver and you will be happy, CZ-USA link http://cz-usa.com/products/view/vz-58-tactical-sporter/
> 
> This rifle is definitely worth a look and doing some research on



Thanks for the link to czechpoint-usa, I hadn't seen that website before. Now I'm craving a folding-stock vz58. Badly. Normally I sell guns to fund new gun purchases, but I just sold my last "non-sporting" long gun & bought a whitewater canoe... I think the vz58 will have to wait a year or two 

Maybe the OP should buy a vz58, so that I might live vicariously through him???


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## Sway (Dec 19, 2009)

vtunderground said:


> Thanks for the link to czechpoint-usa, I hadn't seen that website before. Now I'm craving a folding-stock vz58. Badly. Normally I sell guns to fund new gun purchases, but I just sold my last "non-sporting" long gun & bought a whitewater canoe... I think the vz58 will have to wait a year or two
> 
> Maybe the OP should buy a vz58, so that I might live vicariously through him???



A folder for the VZ is another accessory on my long to buy list when funds are available. The fixed tactical sporter stock feels solid, shoulders well and gives me a better cheek weld with the irons over the AR but I guess that can be fixed with a little money and a Magpul UBR stock. 

Eyeing the Cx4 Storm, Microtech STG-E4 and eagerly awaiting info on the Microtech MCS pistol caliber AUG…….. 

I’m starting to dislike this thread, it makes me want spend money, somebody should close it before *I* buy something ARRRGGG!!!!


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## LightCannon (Dec 19, 2009)

I'm probably going to get bashed for this, but I've always liked the Steyr Elite, for some strange reason. Must be all the Counter-Strike I play. 

Also, I'm surprised nobody mentioned handguns yet (I'm not counting the Kriss Super V. That thing's a monster.)


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## Patriot (Dec 19, 2009)

Sway said:


> Eyeing the Cx4 Storm, Microtech STG-E4 and eagerly awaiting info on the Microtech MCS pistol caliber AUG……..




Great firearms for the money. The little CX4 grows on you.  

I don't own a the STG but they feel solid and shoot wonderfully. I'd like to own one eventually.


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## cchurchi (Dec 21, 2009)

I recomend you get something class 3. Takes a little longer, but it's fun to own something more focused. Just depends if you want a suppressor, SBR, SBS, "any other weapon" - like a serbu super shorty 12 gage pistol, or machine gun - major $$$.


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## Sway (Dec 21, 2009)

cchurchi sweet stuff man :rock: I have been looking into a can but I need to decide for which rifle, I added a 9mm Cx4 Storm to the mix today which isn't helping the decision but it did take one off my to acquire list  

Where is Sgt. LED the original instigator of this thread, has he gone AWOL!

Later
Kelly


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 21, 2009)

Oh no I'm just sitting back and looking at all the links given.

If I like what I see I read about 3 days worth of reviews and posts about it. After that it either stays on the list or is bumped off. Eventually I will move on to the test firing stage to see how they each handle.

Have to take the time so I get just the right one. THEN I have to shop for the best deals on the accessories.


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## vtunderground (Dec 22, 2009)

cchurchi said:


> I recomend you get something class 3.



I've been waiting for someone to say that, haha! I think a Sig 556 SBR would be a lot of fun (loud, though)...


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## daytec (Dec 22, 2009)

dpms lr308b you will not be sorry.....marty
iown an cetme {cetme }the loudest gun i have ever shot


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## cchurchi (Dec 22, 2009)

vtunderground said:


> I've been waiting for someone to say that, haha! I think a Sig 556 SBR would be a lot of fun (loud, though)...


 
Now this is loud! It a 7.5 inch barrel shooting 5.56mm. Forgot to put my ear plugs in once and I thought I was going to be permanently deaf.


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## bitslammer (Dec 22, 2009)

http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_12.htm

with 19" barrel and 20 round aftermarket drum magazine. What could be more fun? Well... if they made a 10ga that would be.


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## Patriot (Dec 23, 2009)

cchurchi said:


> Now this is loud! It a 7.5 inch barrel shooting 5.56mm. Forgot to put my ear plugs in once and I thought I was going to be permanently deaf.





I LOVE IT CCHURCHI!!! LOL!

Ditto on the short barreled .223 sonic impulse. I have a couple of 16" 308 with flash suppressors but the 16" barrel .223 with built in compensator is still louder for some reason. When I'm at the shooting range the 16" .223 sometimes makes the car alarms in the parking lot chirp and my .308's don't do that and I'm not sure why. In any case, the 7.5" barrel is a riot, if for nothing else the fun factor. Great pic dude.


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## Dave Keith (Dec 23, 2009)

Whoo Baby! If you miss with the bullet, you can cook 'em with the muzzle blast!


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## cchurchi (Dec 23, 2009)

Patriot said:


> I LOVE IT CCHURCHI!!! LOL!
> 
> Ditto on the short barreled .223 sonic impulse. I have a couple of 16" 308 with flash suppressors but the 16" barrel .223 with built in compensator is still louder for some reason. When I'm at the shooting range the 16" .223 sometimes makes the car alarms in the parking lot chirp and my .308's don't do that and I'm not sure why. In any case, the 7.5" barrel is a riot, if for nothing else the fun factor. Great pic dude.


 
It's definately the most impratical firearm I own, and strangly, one of the most fun to shoot!:laughing:
I think .223 might sound louder then .308 because of the barrel diameter- but I'm no expert. In the case of rifles, the biggest factor is the muzzle device. Flash suppressors seem pretty quiet, but a .223 with a compensator is very loud. The loudest I ever used was a mini Y-comp. Didn't set of any car alarms though.


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## Sway (Dec 26, 2009)

Just a few words about the Beretta 9mm Cx4 Storm I recently acquired (blaming it on this thread) This little carbine comes with a Picatinny/Weaver top rail and a side accessory side rail that works perfect for a flashlight in 1”/30mm rings. I took stock of a few lights and parts I have on hand and hung a Dereelight DBS V2 off the left weak hand side it’s just perfect for thumb activation.

I tried it out at a local indoor 25 yard range today and put 100 rounds through it and the DBS didn’t flinch a bit as a weapon light, I know that’s not much BUT I’M IMPRESSED! 

Using the sights and doing a 15 round dump at 25 yards 3” to 4” groups were easy even with my bad eye sight…..well really that’s pretty good for me not being able to see the front sight with my glasses on and when I take them off I can’t see the target….It’s a getting older thing you know :shrug: 

Aiming off shoulder and just using the hot spot of the DBS MOP reflector was dead on in the 10X of a B27 target at 5 yards, 15 yards opened up into the 9 and 8 ring but the spot was getting washed out by the range lights to try any farther and there was too many folks there trying out Christmas toys to ask for lights out.

I need a lights out round with the DBS smooth reflector….Don’t think I will need to hang a laser or red dot on it for home defence use "KISS" :devil:











Later
Kelly


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## Patriot (Dec 27, 2009)

Congrats Sway!

It's a great little carbine, especially in 9mm and so much fun to shoot. One of my favorite things about it is magazine availability. It's just so convenient to shoot and enjoy.  That DBS would probably be too big for me but if it works for you, that's all that matters. Good choice of scope rings to hold the light as well. They look strong and clean.


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## LukeA (Dec 28, 2009)

Whatever you end up getting, be sure you have $280 left for one of these and the right mount:










(dot is not really that large, it's just bright. under that light pointing into relative darkness)

I just sighted it in today, and it's like cheating. No steel plate is safe from the 'plink!'


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## Ras_Thavas (Dec 29, 2009)

One of my firearm regrets was passing on buying a Steyer AUG in the late 80's. When I can find the cash I would like to buy one of these:

http://www.msarinc.com/stg556_sporting.html


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## Patriot (Dec 29, 2009)

The MSAR is a much more refined and better gun than the original aug. You didn't miss much other than the exclusivity of owning the Styer and possible investment value. Like you, I also wanted one before the styer prices went from $900 to $2500 over night back then.


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## get-lit (Dec 29, 2009)

Kel-Tec RFB!!! .308 18" barrel Bullpup w/forward ejection...


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 29, 2009)

:twothumbs

I'll take one of those but not at that price. It's a Kel-Tec for goodness sake.


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## get-lit (Dec 30, 2009)

The engineering is quite a feat. They've managed to fit an 18" barrel with a longer chamber and magazine for the 308 in a smaller package than the AUG with a 223. Plus the grip is positioned back further so that the typical arm doesn't have to stretch to wrap around the gun like the AUG. The trigger is the smoothest yet for a bullpup. It has great modular features and it is designed to be fully broke down very easily. It's also fully ambidextrous, which alleviates the issues that have kept bullpups out of most militaries. It's the only bullpup that can fire around both left and right corners without exposing the body, and can be used by both right- and left-handed people without modification or disassembly. It's a true modern battle rifle.

I just wish is came in 223 as well for home defence, because 308 is some serious over-penetration.


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 30, 2009)

I blew the head off of one of my short-rail screws for the Storm today.
I tightened them too much. :scowl: I keep screwing till it gets tough to turn but I guess these can't handle that. I break screws too often, I guess I should tone it down.

The thread on them is very fine. I want to replace them with something a bit stronger than the stock screws.


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## fieldops (Dec 30, 2009)

Ras_Thavas said:


> One of my firearm regrets was passing on buying a Steyer AUG in the late 80's. When I can find the cash I would like to buy one of these:
> 
> http://www.msarinc.com/stg556_sporting.html



I'm with ya. I had a new one offered to me for $600 NIB because he was short of cash....:mecry:

I was a darn fool. I had the same offer for 2 HK94A3s for $900 for the pair.

Good thing I'm not a stock market player.....There would be an open window with the curtains blowing....people wondering where I'm at.....:shakehead


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## Kid9P (Dec 30, 2009)

Man, you are all SOOOOO LUCKY 

I live in NYC and I'm lucky to have my Glock 23.
Those are some nice looking weapons!


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## cchurchi (Jan 1, 2010)

Well, I decided to take my own advice... Just picked up these 2 new additions to the armory and 2 AAC suppressors are in route. More ideas for the OP!


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## 1wrx7 (Jan 2, 2010)

Sgt. LED said:


> I blew the head off of one of my short-rail screws for the Storm today.
> I tightened them too much. :scowl: I keep screwing till it gets tough to turn but I guess these can't handle that. I break screws too often, I guess I should tone it down.
> 
> The thread on them is very fine. I want to replace them with something a bit stronger than the stock screws.


 
Were you able to get the rest of the screw out?... I hope so, that's a PITA. Try using a little blue locktite and a little less torque. More importantly... any closer to a decision on your new toy? I keep waiting for a post with SOCOM pics, someone has to have one in stock.


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## Ras_Thavas (Jan 2, 2010)

fieldops said:


> I'm with ya. I had a new one offered to me for $600 NIB because he was short of cash....:mecry:
> 
> I was a darn fool. I had the same offer for 2 HK94A3s for $900 for the pair.
> 
> Good thing I'm not a stock market player.....There would be an open window with the curtains blowing....people wondering where I'm at.....:shakehead




Ack, that hurts. Someone I used to work with turned down an MP5 in the early 80's because they were asking $1800 for it.

We all live and learn.

I did manage to score this in the late 80's.


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## Sgt. LED (Jan 13, 2010)

Not what I was looking for but for the price I don't think you can beat it anywhere.


http://www.gggaz.com/index.php?special=112
Here are the facts about the Dominator-1:
Mil-Spec Forged 7075 Aluminum A3 Upper Receiver With Correctly Cut Feed 
ramps For Military Type M Barrels. 

Complete With Forward Assist And Ejection Port Cover. 

Upper Receiver is T-marked

A2 Back Up Iron Sight With Locking Detent.​16 Inch Set Up Includes Chrome Moly M203 Contoured Barrel With A 1-7 Twist Rate And Flash Hider. Barrel And Chamber Are Hard-Chrome Lined.

Mil-Spec Gas Tube And Delta Ring Assembly.

Flip Up Front Sight With Locking Detent Mechanism, Bayonet Lug And Ambi Sling Swivel.


Tactical Modular Forearm Complete With Rails And Foregrip Panels, Standard or Free Float Version.

Recoil Cross Slots Of Upper Receiver And Tactical Modular Forearm Are Sequentially Numbered. (T-Marked)

Aluminum Components Have Been Type III Hard-Coat Anodized Matte Black Per Mil-Spec.Steel Components Have Been Manganese Phosphated Matte Black Per Mil-Spec.​ 
Fully Assembled And Headspaced, Bolt Group and Charging Handle Included In This Sales Special.


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## Ras_Thavas (Jan 16, 2010)

The MSAR STG-556 and STG-E4 are deeply discounted now, about half price from 6 months ago. I just placed an order for a STG-556.


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## Search (Jan 16, 2010)

Every Glock needs a friend. How about the greatest hand gun of all time? 

Springfield 1911 Loaded. Now to get some G10 grips and a new trigger :naughty:






Just wait until HK sells the 416 to the public. Some day


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## Tim W (Jan 17, 2010)

*US Rifle Cal. 30 M1*

Get a good M1 Garand!


You'll never regret it.


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## Patriot (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: US Rifle Cal. 30 M1*



Tim W said:


> Get a good M1 Garand!
> 
> 
> You'll never regret it.





+1 to that if you don't already own one. You'll fall in love with them.


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## Kindle (Jan 18, 2010)

Sgt. LED said:


> I'd like a Sig 556 (_want to try a piston designed AR not a kit or conversion_)



If you want a piston AR why are you looking at the Sig? It's a great gun but doesn't have much in common with Stoner's baby.

How about a Para TTR? I know it isn't a true piston but I have the original ZM LR-300 and it's probably my favorite AR.






If you just gotta have a short stroke piston the Addax GPU is a very refined design and isn't ridiculously overpriced like many.


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## Christoph (Jan 22, 2010)

After much reading comparing and justifying I believe that I will get me one of them thar CX4 Beretta's I have a Glock .40 so that makes thinks simple.


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## Sway (Jan 22, 2010)

Ras_Thavas said:


> Ack, that hurts. Someone I used to work with turned down an MP5 in the early 80's because they were asking $1800 for it.
> 
> We all live and learn.
> 
> I did manage to score this in the late 80's.




Like you I bought in the 80’s, an A2 and A3 but sold both of them in 91 (ironic) when I started to build my house, every dollar counts you know or does it…..”Buy the best and cry only once” is haunting me right now looking at your A2…. 

That Bon of a Sitch is sweet and making me think if “I had all to do over again” well all I can do now is :mecry: and be envious!

Thanks for posting the pic, at least I can live vicariously 

Cheers
Kelly


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## da.gee (Jan 31, 2010)

$300 rebate on Sig 556s.


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## Ras_Thavas (Feb 4, 2010)

Got my STG-556 in the other day. Have not had time to shoot it. I want to take it to an outdoor range, but the snowpocalypse has prevented that so far.

It fits in the shoulder beautifully, can't wait to shoot it.

Here is a crappy pic.


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## Sway (Feb 5, 2010)

Very nice pup! :rock: 

What kind of optic are you using and how does is weld up with the STG-556 height rail?

I’m on the waiting list for an E4 and still trying to decide what I want to run but I’m leaning toward some kind of Aimpoint at the moment.

Cheers
Kelly


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## Patriot (Feb 5, 2010)

Hard to beat the Comp M3 on the E4 Sway.


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## Ras_Thavas (Feb 6, 2010)

Sway said:


> Very nice pup! :rock:
> 
> What kind of optic are you using and how does is weld up with the STG-556 height rail?
> 
> ...



It is a cheap ncStar scope I picked up at a gun show. Cheek weld is fine, but the eye relief on it is not so good. It's just a temporary solution, have already decided that I am going to put a Trijicon TA33 ACOG on it. I am just waiting on the money to appear


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## paintballdad (Feb 14, 2010)

Sarge, sorry if this is a thread hijack but i need some feedback regarding some of the weapons already mentioned here.

Need real world feedback on the following rifles. Please post your impressions if you have any experience/knowledge regarding these rifles or something similar. Haven't owned a 5.56mm chambered rifle since i sold off an Olympic Arms CAR-15 and an H&K 630 in the early 90's (stoopid, stoopid, stooopid!). Looking to pick one up now before the fecal matter hits the ventilation device and kinda miss shooting a 5.56mm rifle. I do have plenty of handguns and own a bolt action 22lr Savage Mark IIBV and a Sig 522LR, so i do have firearms experience.

Here's my short list:

Sig 556 (my 1st choice but that can change)
http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=35&productid=271

Ruger SR556 (not a big Ruger fan but have heard some good things about this rifle)
http://ruger.com/products/sr556/index.html

Smith & Wesson M&P 15
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...selected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=

Stag Arms Model 3
http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=13_22&products_id=208

Any other rifles chambered in 5.56mm that you guys can recommend?


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## Sway (Feb 15, 2010)

For AR’s you may want to have a look at the list, it’s an excellent reference that helps to explain some of the differences between manufactures of the M4 type but doesn’t include the Ruger SR556 you will have to dig that one up. It should help you narrow down what you are looking for by specs and price. 

Edit:
Ruger SR-556 Spec Sheet

Cheers
Kelly


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## Paladin (Feb 16, 2010)

I've been happy with the M16/AR15 platform for over three decades. Absolutely do NOT need another rifle. But last week the wife was shopping in a thrift store, and I went next door to check out a gun store I rarely visit.

Dang, they had almost every model of the Sig556 on the market. Prices reduced to adjust their inventory levels. And a $300 rebate. Arrgghh, the temptation was severe. _Then the wife said I should get one_.

Still resisting, but I will probably at least go back and fondle the basic Classic model again.

Paladin


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