# 100W CHIP LED NOOB QUESTION



## AQUAMAN77 (Apr 7, 2014)

i was wanting to run 2 100w led chips on 2 drivers one on each driver. *Color Temperature: Red (Wave length:620-625nm)-Working Forward Voltage (VF): 20-24V-Forward Currect (IF): 3000mA and a Blue ( 455-460nm )-DC Forward Voltage (VF): 30-32Vdc-
DC Forward Current (IF): 3000mA ~ 3200mA and this is the driver 

MODEL​ZPC-383000L

INPUT​AC:90-264V 50/60Hz
AC:2.6A

OUTPUT​DC:20-36V
DC:3A±5%
100W Max

Dimension​148.5 x 69.9 x 43 mm

my question is vf on one its 20-24 and one is 30-32 vf does the driver do this all by its self or do you have to turn the screw on the driver to lower it.not understanding this or do i just look at (IF) which is 3000mA and they will both work without doing any changes plug and play with this driver all noob talk have no experince with this.
*


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## RetroTechie (Apr 7, 2014)

Welcome to CPF, AQUAMAN77! :wave:

LED drivers like these are current sources. It will adjust its output voltage within some range (20-36V here) to whatever is needed to cause a specified output current (3A here). Since both LED's Vf ranges fall within the LED driver's 20-36V output range, it *should* be able to put 3A through each of those LEDs. That is in case of one driver each per LED, as you intended.

a) In theory, practice should match theory. In practice, theory doesn't always match practice. 
b) That's if you want to drive each LED at its _full_ rated power. Which you may not want. :thinking: For example driving a 100W rated LED at ~50W is fine too.
c) Of course such a setup will require lots of cooling for the LEDs. :sweat:


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## DIWdiver (Apr 7, 2014)

+1.

Also, I definitely advise running for brief periods and checking temperature until you know you have sufficient cooling.


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## AQUAMAN77 (Apr 8, 2014)

THANKS FOR REPLYS. So with this driver i will not have to ajust anything for full power it is plug and drive. Now the red will be at full power at *3000mA* right and the blue needs to be pushed to *3200mA with a different driver to get full power right? will this setup need resisters or anything else to run? these are the heatsinks i will add fan to all of them if it dont have one.
1-http://www.ebay.com/itm/100W-High-Power-LED-Cooling-Fan-Aluminium-Heatsink-/360442142097?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53ec069d91
2-http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Heat-Sink-Cooling-Fan-for-100W-High-Power-LED-Lamp-/370853900962?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56589d72a2
3-http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-pc-up-to-100W-Watt-LED-Aluminium-Heatsink-Round-XXL-10W-20W-30W-45W-50W-100W-/161045261622?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257f0bad36**hope i can post links sorry if not. ok can leds be ran at any angle without problems and are these heatsink going to be good enough for this task?
another question i have is about running two of the same in a series with one 200w driver and how that works but it is probably out of my league to complicated.
thanks for replies watched tons of videos on 3w leds but hardly any 50w or 100w that explain anything more than how they did their own set up which wasn’t detailed.
dont want to fry a $20 or $30 dollar chip. I am going to start small 2 and hopefully move to 4 after i learn and watch more videos of running in series and understanding it.
but yes i am trying to run all chips full power if i can get them there lol.*


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## DollarIn (Apr 8, 2014)

AQUAMAN77 said:


> i was wanting to run 2 100w led chips on 2 drivers one on each driver. *Color Temperature: Red (Wave length:620-625nm)-Working Forward Voltage (VF): 20-24V-Forward Currect (IF): 3000mA and a Blue ( 455-460nm )-DC Forward Voltage (VF): 30-32Vdc-
> DC Forward Current (IF): 3000mA ~ 3200mA and this is the driver
> MODEL​ZPC-383000LINPUT​AC:90-264V 50/60HzAC:2.6AOUTPUT​DC:20-36VDC:3A±5%100W MaxDimension​148.5 x 69.9 x 43 mm
> my question is vf on one its 20-24 and one is 30-32 vf does the driver do this all by its self or do you have to turn the screw on the driver to lower it.not understanding this or do i just look at (IF) which is 3000mA and they will both work without doing any changes plug and play with this driver all noob talk have no experince with this.
> *


Using that driver should be ok for the blue LED, but I doubt it'll be able to run the red LED at full capacity. It's maximum output is 3A, to run your red LED at full power you'll need one that can output 4-5A at its voltage range.

All the heatsinks you posted are fine. Just make sure you use a good quality thermal paste, and bolt down the LED onto the heatsink plate if possible.


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## RetroTechie (Apr 8, 2014)

DollarIn said:


> Using that driver should be ok for the blue LED, but I doubt it'll be able to run the red LED at full capacity. It's maximum output is 3A, to run your red LED at full power you'll need one that can output 4-5A at its voltage range.


Poster said "2 100w led chips" but if the specs are correct, the red LED is rated ~65W, and the blue LED is rated ~95W. Of course the latter is rounded up to 100W. But pushing 4-5A through that red LED wouldn't run it "full power", but at ~150% of "full power".

So these aren't "2 100w led chips", but LEDs with different power ratings (reflected by the difference in Vf). Max forward current is practically the same, so a single type of driver should do.


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## DollarIn (Apr 8, 2014)

RetroTechie said:


> Poster said "2 100w led chips" but if the specs are correct, the red LED is rated ~65W, and the blue LED is rated ~95W. Of course the latter is rounded up to 100W. But pushing 4-5A through that red LED wouldn't run it "full power", but at ~150% of "full power".
> 
> So these aren't "2 100w led chips", but LEDs with different power ratings (reflected by the difference in Vf). Max forward current is practically the same, so a single type of driver should do.


No, the voltage and current values he's posted are of the driver, not the led. I've never heard of a 65w COB module.


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## DIWdiver (Apr 8, 2014)

Actually, the OP posted specs on the driver and both LEDs, and they are all slightly different, right there in post #1 for all to see. However, they should all work fine together, as RetroTechie stated. 

The power level mentioned in the marketing of a device is always the most suspect. Unless it's a flashlight, then it's the lumen rating. The "100W" mentioned by the OP could be his oversight, could be marketing hype, or oversight by some marketing genius who didn't realize that the white and blue modules are 95W (rounded to 100 for marketing purposes) while the red are 65W. If they make green, it might be over 95W.

Lastly, just because you haven't heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist, especially in this fast-moving and sometimes truth-impaired industry. The "100W" modules everyone is talking about might well be 65-95W in reality, at least from some manufacturers, when you look at the specs in more detail.


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## DollarIn (Apr 9, 2014)

DIWdiver said:


> Actually, the OP posted specs on the driver and both LEDs, and they are all slightly different, right there in post #1 for all to see. However, they should all work fine together, as RetroTechie stated.
> 
> The power level mentioned in the marketing of a device is always the most suspect. Unless it's a flashlight, then it's the lumen rating. The "100W" mentioned by the OP could be his oversight, could be marketing hype, or oversight by some marketing genius who didn't realize that the white and blue modules are 95W (rounded to 100 for marketing purposes) while the red are 65W. If they make green, it might be over 95W.
> 
> Lastly, just because you haven't heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist, especially in this fast-moving and sometimes truth-impaired industry. The "100W" modules everyone is talking about might well be 65-95W in reality, at least from some manufacturers, when you look at the specs in more detail.


There's a big difference between a 95W LED being rounded up to 100W, and a 65W LED being rounded up to 100W. 

The LED driver posted is clearly designed to run white/blue LEDs which run at higher forward voltages, hence lower currents. That's why it's maximum output is ~3A. Seems to me like the seller is trying to sell the driver as an all in one device, when in actual fact it is unsuitable for operation on a higher LED with a lower forward voltage.

Rather than telling the OP that everything is hunky dory, it would be logical to tell him to investigate further because there is a huge disparity either with the driver or the LED's rated capacity. Either way it doesn't add up to me.


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## DIWdiver (Apr 9, 2014)

What doesn't add up? 3A driver, 3A LED. 20-36V driver, 20-24V LED. What's wrong with that?


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## DollarIn (Apr 11, 2014)

DIWdiver said:


> What doesn't add up? 3A driver, 3A LED. 20-36V driver, 20-24V LED. What's wrong with that?


:duh2:

If you're still asking that there's no point in me repeating myself.


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## bshanahan14rulz (Apr 11, 2014)

According to the data we are provided in the OP, the driver puts out 3A, and is capable of powering a load that drops between 20V and 36V. 

The loads in question are LEDs, one drops between 20V and 24V at 3A, the other drops between 30V and 32V at 3A. Both those ranges are within the claimed range of the driver. 

I believe the confusion lies with the seller assuming that if LEDs are the same size, they are 100W. If you assume the 100W label is true, and you divide 100W/24V, you do get >4A, but I think it would be wiser to assume that the more granular specifications, as vague as they are, are more accurate than the generic label of "100W." Either way, the data we are provided contradicts itself, so we are forced to make assumptions as to which part of the conflicting data is more likely to be true.


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## RetroTechie (Apr 12, 2014)

The specs for both LEDs and driver are pretty clear imho... Less clear is where "100w" comes from in the case of the (20-24V) red LED.

Probably just false advertising, a clueless seller, or (as you state) some idiot that assumed a LED to have same wattage rating as another same-sized one. Or advertised specs were correct but AQUAMAN77 him/herself confused a few Watt numbers. :thinking:

If anyone is confused that's their business, I'm not...


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## AQUAMAN77 (Apr 12, 2014)

So how do i figure out watts on these so im not fooled. im looking on ebay under 100w led chips and these were the specs on two chips. how do i figure out that the red is only 65w and blue is 95w?


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## DIWdiver (Apr 13, 2014)

Multiply Vf by max current, and you get max power. You should not exceed any of those or you risk damaging the LED.


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## VegasF6 (Apr 13, 2014)

By by "power" that means "watts." 

But maximum power for an LED isn't the best indicator for brightness, which I assume is your main concern? So don't get too hung up on wattage.
Lumens is a measure of brightness, if they supply it. Then you just have to be suspect for whatever ratings they give you on that. It's kind of a crapshoot with the no name ebay cob leds you seem to be looking at. 

This model for instance, 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/100W-Watt-R...499?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257b74e1cb
according to the given specs, its maximum operating power is between 63 and 77 watts. The luminous flux though is what tells us how bright it will be, 4500 - 5000 lumens.

This model on the other hand,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-100W-d...535?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f33e33f47
can operate anywhere from 69 to 122 watts (pretty broad range, huh? That alone would be enough to scare me away from this seller)
But the published luminous flux is between 3500 and 4000. (also, note this is listed as "intensity" which is incorrect)
So despite using MORE power, it would be less bright, assuming there is any truth to the specs.

One explanation could be the longer wavelength light, this is more a "deep red" led, which would make it dimmer. But also could just be a less efficacious design.


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## DollarIn (Apr 14, 2014)

VegasF6 said:


> By by "power" that means "watts."
> 
> But maximum power for an LED isn't the best indicator for brightness, which I assume is your main concern? So don't get too hung up on wattage.
> Lumens is a measure of brightness, if they supply it. Then you just have to be suspect for whatever ratings they give you on that. It's kind of a crapshoot with the no name ebay cob leds you seem to be looking at.
> ...


I have the exact same LED as the second LED you posted but from a different seller. There's no way the forward voltage is that high. The seller is doing the same thing again as the seller in the OP, he's using driver specifications for the LED values, except he forgot to change the forward voltage. Most sellers on ebay are just resellers and many either don't know the true operating values of the LED or deliberately distort them to sell more. The manufacturers themselves have been less than honest when reporting performance values. Bottom line is, use common sense and don't take any of the specifications for granted.

The lower luminous flux is because of the longer wavelength being less perceivable by the human eye. They're actually typically more efficient than regular ~630nm LEDs. That's why the more established manufacturers of LEDs (cree, philips) publish deep red and royal blue LED data as radiometric power and radiant efficiency instead of luminous flux and lumens/W.


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## DollarIn (Apr 14, 2014)

AQUAMAN77 said:


> So how do i figure out watts on these so im not fooled. im looking on ebay under 100w led chips and these were the specs on two chips. how do i figure out that the red is only 65w and blue is 95w?


There is no way you can be 100% sure with chinese made LEDs, but based on my own experience of high power LED modules I'm certain it is supposed to be ran at a much higher current. Here are some LED sellers who sell 100w red LEDs. They all rate the LEDs close(r) to 100W.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360445477617
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221229547867
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321346942410

There's a lot more Chinese LED sellers on ebay than there are manufacturers, my bet is that all these modules (including the original one you posted) have similar specifications.

If you want to run the LED at a power similar to the blue LED, you'll need a better driver.


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## VegasF6 (Apr 14, 2014)

Perhaps. You are making a lot of assumptions, but you could certainly be correct.
I would consider sure electronics the better of a bad bunch. People here have tested there high power leds even quite some time ago, and while they don't hold up like quality products from well known manufacturers such as Cree etc, they are better than your run of the mill poo poo also.
So, I would give a little more credence to their specs. 

But suppose those specs given aren't the bleeding edge of what the LED is capable of, so what of it? A bit under driven can only help the LED.
When designing a fixture, the first thing you should ask yourself is "what are my needs?" Then go from there. Instead of designing an array around the product, choose a product that meets your design needs. 
What are they? Perhaps you would be better served with a better product?


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## AQUAMAN77 (Apr 17, 2014)

I've been looking at leds and i guess most of them run a 3w at 1.8w so they last. Would a 100w chip run good on a 80w driver and would it hurt lumens or how do i or can i turn down driver on 100w driver to run at 90%? if it runs max current at 3.5a would it be better to get a driver with max current of 3a so leds last longer?


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## evanpnz (Oct 31, 2014)

AQUAMAN77 said:


> I've been looking at leds and i guess most of them run a 3w at 1.8w so they last. Would a 100w chip run good on a 80w driver and would it hurt lumens or how do i or can i turn down driver on 100w driver to run at 90%? if it runs max current at 3.5a would it be better to get a driver with max current of 3a so leds last longer?



A good rule of thumb with any electronic component (LEDs no exception) is to never excede 80% of any maximum rating. if you want it to last forever, such as in a vehicle or similar application, never excede 60% of any rating. The one most people underestimate is temperature. Temperature builds up quickly, especially in a sealed enclosure. If you are using a sealed enclosure, try to go with a metal one, and clamp the wall of the enclosure between the LED base and heat-sink, with the heat sink outside the enclosure, taking care to remove paint from all sandwiched surfaces and also using thermal paste or adhesive between all surfaces of the sandwich. Get a cheap multimeter with a thermocouple probe and test the temperature of your creation, as close to the LED as possible, running for the maximum time you would ever conceivably use it, on a warm day. That's the way to make bulletproof designs.


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## DIWdiver (Oct 31, 2014)

AQUAMAN77 said:


> I've been looking at leds and i guess most of them run a 3w at 1.8w so they last. Would a 100w chip run good on a 80w driver and would it hurt lumens or how do i or can i turn down driver on 100w driver to run at 90%? if it runs max current at 3.5a would it be better to get a driver with max current of 3a so leds last longer?



The trick is to run things cooler. The real enemy here is temperature. A rule of thumb that's been used in electronics for decades is that for every 10 degrees C increase in temperature, you cut the lifetime in half. That may not be exactly correct for LEDs, but the rule is something like that.

There are several ways to run your parts cooler. 

Running them at lower power is probably the most obvious. For a given design, cutting the power by 20% also cuts the temperature rise by 20%. Temperature rise is the difference between 'die' temperature (temperature of the active element deep inside the LED, IC, transistor, or whatever part you are thinking about) and the 'ambient' temperature (temperature of the air, water, or whatever is the ultimate place the heat eventually goes). Die temperature is what determines the life of the part.

Better heatsinks and better thermal paths reduce the temperature rise. Sloppy design, poor materials, and bad construction increase the temperature rise. Innovative designs, good materials, and proper construction reduce the temperature rise.

All of these factors must be considered when trying to predict the lifetime of any design, including LED lighting.

LED lighting covers a vast array of features and specifications. To suggest that "most of them run a 3w at 1.8w" would be oversimplifying the situation. While that would increase the lifetime of the LED, you'll find some on CPF running 3W at 5W, and not expecting great life. You'll also find things between. You have to be aware of what *all *the design goals are before you can evaluate whether a specific design meets those goals.


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## SemiMan (Nov 1, 2014)

In most fixtures you may be surprised to find out that reducing the power by 20% reduces the thermal rise by less than 20%.

Thermalman


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