# Next generation of LEDs?



## sphynx_000 (Sep 2, 2010)

When I first joined CPF cree lights seamed to be all the rage. I was a very significant improvement over luxeon, twice the efficiency or whatever.

Think there will be new leds is the near future that rivial the current top of the line stuff, such as cree did when they were first available?


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## NCT1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I sure hope so!


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## Connor (Sep 2, 2010)

sphynx_000 said:


> Think there will be new leds is the near future that rivial the current top of the line stuff, such as cree did when they were first available?



Unfortunately not. The development of new LEDs has been stopped worldwide as of yesterday. You came back too late. 

:devil::devil::devil:


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## ama230 (Sep 3, 2010)

The next generation of leds will be a variation of using different components. 

Like there is the LEC, which stands for light emitting capacitor and does not require a certain voltage to light the phosphor. 

There is going to be more options for sure which will push innovation as with cree coming up with a successor of the xp-g.

Also Nichia is the one leading the pack and then a close follow with cree(hooray for usa).

Cant wait to see whats next.:twothumbs

Interesting thread!


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## EZO (Sep 8, 2010)

ama230 said:


> Also Nichia is the one leading the pack and then a close follow with cree(hooray for usa).
> Cant wait to see whats next.



Only 3 days after this post LEDs Magazine ran an article about Nichia's announcement regarding their R&D on "What's next". 

*Nichia claims record efficacy for 1A operation*


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## Bright_Light (Sep 8, 2010)

> An LED based on just one of Nichia's 1x1-mm die delivered 183 lm/W at 350 mA and 130 lm/W at 1A.


 
That's the same size than an XRE Q5, right?


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## kzb (Sep 8, 2010)

The capacity for improvement is not so large now though. Stepping up from incandescent to LED is an efficiency improvement say 15 to 60%, so about 4 times the efficiency in one step.

There's only about 40% left to go before 100% efficiency, so I can't see there being another large efficiency step-change like there was changing over from incans to LED.

The only hope now for a big step change is energy storage density, ie batteries cells or whatever that vastly improve on what we have now.


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## EZO (Sep 8, 2010)

Sometimes it's hard to see around the corner and the advances we will see in the future may come from unexpected places. It may be that LED technology will be similar to what we have now but ancillary technologies will dramatically enhance their capabilities. One of the most interesting is the development and introduction of Quantum Dots. Currently they are being incorporated into interior lighting, next generation display panel technology, and photo sensors because of their superior CRI abilities and greater efficiencies but it's not hard to imagine this and other technologies making their way into flashlights. It may not necessarily mean brighter flashlights (but probably will) but it could mean better quality of light, cooler run temperatures and dramatically improved run times for a given power source.

*Quantum Dots Enhance LED Lighting*

Then there is nandenting, another new development. Here's an article posted today (September 8th 2010) 

*LEDs are getting better, much better*

And this: 

*Improving LED Lighting*

Another recent interesting development is graphite foam technology for temperature management and increased life for LEDs.

There are other nanotech LED improvements happening too.

Seems like these developments are coming fast and furious.


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## EZO (Sep 8, 2010)

EZO said:


> nanodenting



Oops! I wanted to fix a typo - nanodenting not nandenting but I hit quote accidentally instead of edit. Sorry folks, it's been a long day.


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## saabluster (Sep 8, 2010)

First off this is clearly the wrong forum to be posting this in.



ama230 said:


> Also Nichia is the one leading the pack and then a close follow with cree(hooray for usa).


There is no clear winner between the two right now. It depends on what market segment you are looking at.



kzb said:


> The capacity for improvement is not so large now though.


There is still huge capacity for improvement. Not necessarily in the efficiency but as we get closer and closer to "100%" the small incremental improvements will mean that a given LED can be pushed far far harder. Current phosphor is going to become a problem as the flux density reaches really high levels.


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## EZO (Sep 8, 2010)

saabluster said:


> First off this is clearly the wrong forum to be posting this in.



Yeah, I was wondering that when I saw this thread but since a moderator hadn't moved it........


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## EZO (Sep 9, 2010)

Here's another interesting example of recently introduced next generation LED technology.

"Illumitex, an LED-manufacturing company based in Austin, TX, launched its first product line earlier this month. (April 2010) The startup's first LEDs are designed for general-purpose lighting and emit a uniform, narrow beam of white light that is almost two times brighter than any white LED on the market." (Not 100% sure if this claim can be supported yet, but that's what they say.)

Illumitex Inc's products could have unique applications specific to flashlights. 

"Illumitex LEDs offer one advantage completely unique to its package design: the beam angle--that is, the angle at which light emerges from the package--can be tailored from 10° to 90° with limited light loss."

Read the whole article at MIT's Technology Review Magazine.


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## kzb (Sep 9, 2010)

Saabluster, you canna beat the laws of physics  If we are already at 60% efficiency conversion of energy to light, the maximum possible improvement is 66.7% or a factor of 1.67. Not even that will be achieved in practice. When we changed to LEDs from classic light bulbs we got a factor of 4 in one step change.


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## Moonshadow (Sep 9, 2010)

From the datasheet for the ITX-125:



> Over 125 lumens in a 9 x 17 mm package


So I don't think we'll be seeing one of these in an AAA light any time soon ! 

From the MIT review:



> could deliver 500 lumens for only 7 watts.



So about 70 Lumens per Watt - about half that of an R5 XP-G.

These seem more oriented to domestic lighting than flashlight applications, but could be interesting to watch as the technology matures. I particularly like the idea of streetlights that only shine the light where it's needed, with minimal spillover.


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## RepProdigious (Sep 9, 2010)

kzb said:


> Saabluster, you canna beat the laws of physics  If we are already at 60% efficiency conversion of energy to light, the maximum possible improvement is 66.7% or a factor of 1.67. Not even that will be achieved in practice. When we changed to LEDs from classic light bulbs we got a factor of 4 in one step change.



Nobody said anything about twice the efficiency... Twice the brightness is possible easy.


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## EZO (Sep 9, 2010)

Moonshadow, I agree with your basic observation here but this is a *very* young company looking for new markets in a very competitive environment. If their technology proves sound we could eventually see their LEDs emerge in different form factors geared towards other applications. Also, depending on the actual performance of their units (and whatever else comes down the pike from other firms) we could eventually see different flashlight form factors emerge too, perhaps new bezel, reflector and lens designs (fractal reflectors, anyone?). The notion that an LED design can allow for the control of emerging light from 10 to 90 degrees at an alleged twice the brightness with limited light loss really excites the imagination when it comes to the possibilities for precise control of throw and spill in flashlight design. (Perhaps Saabluster may have some thoughts on this?) Hey, the incandescent light bulb has been with us since the early part of the 19th century. It's seen many incremental technological improvements but is more or less the same thing Edison gave us 1879 (and others before him). Solid state lighting is ostensibly still in its infancy so who knows what we will see in the years to come. It's fun to speculate and see all the activity in this very energized industry. 

*"The Future's So Bright, I Gotta Wear Shades"*- (Timbuk3 1986)


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## MrMojo (Sep 9, 2010)

Interesting thread 

Thanks for posting the links EZO, those were some good reads.


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## saabluster (Sep 9, 2010)

kzb said:


> Saabluster, you canna beat the laws of physics  If we are already at 60% efficiency conversion of energy to light, the maximum possible improvement is 66.7% or a factor of 1.67. Not even that will be achieved in practice. When we changed to LEDs from classic light bulbs we got a factor of 4 in one step change.



Never said anything about beating the laws of physics. Read it again.


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## EZO (Sep 9, 2010)

MrMojo said:


> Interesting thread
> 
> Thanks for posting the links EZO, those were some good reads.



You are welcome...and welcome to CPF!


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## CaNo (Sep 9, 2010)

MrMojo said:


> Interesting thread
> 
> Thanks for posting the links EZO, those were some good reads.


:welcome:


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## ama230 (Sep 9, 2010)

One thing i would like to see is a peltier device on bottom of a triple xp-g setup. That way you could power the light at 90% brightness indefinitely instead of having to fad it or just use pwm at a little higher frequency. I know that the led is loosing 10% at least to heat, it would be interesting as solid state cooling with a solid state lighting source, maybe a super combo?

Or even just use it to capture waste head and power extra leds to help with close up flood then the center emitter throwing as is.

What's the name of cree's new emitter as i have heard of it in another thread?


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## qwertyydude (Sep 10, 2010)

Nichia seems so much bluff and bluster but you can't buy anything from them but their cheapo 5mm led's. I mean sure they've "got" 365 nm uv leds but try buying one. If Nichia just wants to be permanently research that's fine but they don't seem to be willing to sell anything and prove that their mighty lumen claims are even practical.

I doubt Nichia will surpass Cree. I mean just as they fully ramp up the XP-G's here come the XM-L's. I mean talk about moore's law they seem to be breaking it. Maybe not efficiency wise but Cree's amazing advancement in reducing droop is just as amazing as Nichia's work at making tremendous efficiency at what like 10 mw? So all you need are 100 unobtanium Nichia led's which they'll gladly sell you for like $50 a piece. I'll take an XM-L any day.


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## Tally-ho (Sep 10, 2010)

ama230 said:


> One thing i would like to see is a peltier device on bottom of a triple xp-g setup.


See here and ask luxrc if he has pictures or/and datas of his experiment to share:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3514997#post3514997


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## saabluster (Sep 10, 2010)

qwertyydude said:


> Nichia seems so much bluff and bluster but you can't buy anything from them but their cheapo 5mm led's. I mean sure they've "got" 365 nm uv leds but try buying one. If Nichia just wants to be permanently research that's fine but they don't seem to be willing to sell anything and prove that their mighty lumen claims are even practical.
> 
> I doubt Nichia will surpass Cree. I mean just as they fully ramp up the XP-G's here come the XM-L's. I mean talk about moore's law they seem to be breaking it. Maybe not efficiency wise but Cree's amazing advancement in reducing droop is just as amazing as Nichia's work at making tremendous efficiency at what like 10 mw? So all you need are 100 unobtanium Nichia led's which they'll gladly sell you for like $50 a piece. I'll take an XM-L any day.


I understand why your beating up on Nichia but those thoughts need to be taken with a little salt. Nichia does have higher effeciency LEDs than Cree in the marketplace right now. Look at the Raijin. Yes they are low power but they are very good LEDs and have their place in the market. The fact that Nichia makes it difficult for us to get their LEDs does not mean it is difficult for larger companies to obtain them. The real money is with big companies not us. Can't blame them for not catering to us.


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## ama230 (Sep 10, 2010)

That's a great point and so very true...saabluster.

Also the project with the peltier device, its too big for what he wants to do. They have much smaller ones that are the size of a dime and even smaller so they would only consume maybe a watt to mW. Of course its going to cool great as it can freeze water relatively quick. In fact there are many that only consume 97mW and you would give a delta T of 60C, which is awesome as the led would see the cool and the body would be getting warm.

Again this would be impractical for a maratac or something similar but for a maglite d or c(or similar sized light) this would be the perfect size for the project and would be great on power.

Thanks for pointing this out as copper heat sinks can only transfer heat rather than rid of it, so its seems viable.lovecpf


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## HKJ (Sep 10, 2010)

ama230 said:


> One thing i would like to see is a peltier device on bottom of a triple xp-g setup.



I do not really believe in a peltier setup, it might be able to increase the temperature difference with 30-40 degree, but then you have to get rid of twice the power.
In my opinion a copper kernel is a much better solution, use the copper to transfer the heat away from the led, then use a aluminium heat sink to dissipate the heat (In some extreme circumstances it might even be a good solution to replace the copper by a heat pipe).


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## EZO (Sep 10, 2010)

I mentioned the recently developed Graphite Foam technology _"that keeps even high-intensity LEDs as cool as those used for front-panel indicators"_ in an earlier post in this thread and provided this link. I wonder how well it really works and how much of the stuff is required for it to function. Also, I wonder if any of the parties mentioned in the article might be prevailed upon to provide some samples to CPFers for experimentation?


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## Yoda4561 (Sep 10, 2010)

ama230 said:


> That's a great point and so very true...saabluster.
> 
> Also the project with the peltier device, its too big for what he wants to do. They have much smaller ones that are the size of a dime and even smaller so they would only consume maybe a watt to mW. Of course its going to cool great as it can freeze water relatively quick. In fact there are many that only consume 97mW and you would give a delta T of 60C, which is awesome as the led would see the cool and the body would be getting warm.
> 
> ...



Peltiers aren't quite that convenient. The Peltier's power consumption is inherently tied to the heat output of what you're trying to cool. All a 1 watt peltier will do is cool ( more accurately it "moves") about .5 watts worth of heat, If you have 10 watts of heat you'll need to size accordingly, and you still need a cooling solution for the peltier's hot side. Basically now you're at a 10 watt draw for the LED, and 20 watt power draw for the Peltier, so you now need an end of the line cooling solution (big heatsink+ fan??) that can handle the 30 watts of heat from both devices. Put a 1 watt peltier on something like a triple xpg and all you'll end up with is a burned out peltier and a dead led shortly thereafter. It's just not worth the trouble for most lighting solutions, as you can just triple the number of LED's with better efficiency and less heat output if you want more light, instead of wasting power with solid state cooling. 

If the only goal is to cool something to sub-ambient temperatures they are fairly efficient at that, compared to traditional compressor type cooling systems. So a small project light without power draw requirements with a -30F LED temperature is the sort of thing they could be used for. Probably get some really interesting results, but not much in the way of practicality.


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## EZO (Sep 10, 2010)

Hey guys, I'm kinda' new around here so what do I know, but I'm slowly learning how to play by "the rules". I'm fascinated by this discussion of using peltier devices to cool emitters and hope to hear more but isn't the topic here 'sposed to be "Next Generation of LEDs"?

Ya' know. it's so damned easy to go off on interesting tangents here in these threads, much like sitting around a table with a bunch of friends having good conversation but sitting around a table we generally don't have moderators scolding us to stay on topic which can surely be annoying sometimes but all in all seems to have a certain logic to it. Maybe the peltier aspect of this thread should become a new thread, no?


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## MrMojo (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks for the welcome  I'm really glad I found this place.... lovecpf
I've been learning so much here in a short amount of time by searching and reading threads.

It's always fun to sit back and imagine future tech


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