# Looking for good sources for used CNC equipment.



## jhanko (Aug 13, 2010)

I am FINALLY ready to take the plunge into automation. I am looking at buying a 3 axis lathe with live tooling, or a 2 axis lathe and a separate CNC mill. This seems the better approach as I won't be relying on one machine for everything. Space will be a factor (a 12' x 20' shop), as well as power requirements (7.5 hp max). I will most likely be buying used, as I'll get more machine this way. I have no problem with repairing/restoring heavy equipment if necessary.

I have been hunting down equipment for a while and am getting very frustrated. These used equipment dealers are worse than car salesmen (no offence to the car salesmen on the forum). They are like vultures, only interested in getting the sale. A lot of bait & switch. All of them I have contacted do not have the machines in their possession (working on heavily marked up consignment), so they can't answer detailed questions. They all have the same responses (It’s in great condition, never crashed, low hours, been sitting unused, blah,blah,blah). BTW, new equipment dealers seem to be no better. I had one tell me that C-axis was included. The quote he emailed me had it listed as a $4k option.

Does anyone know of any good sites to buy used equipment? An honest reseller (if this exists), or classifieds from owners who actually have the machines. I will be paying with cash, so financing is not a concern. I certainly didn't think that finding the machines would be more difficult than paying for them...

Any leads would be appreciated. I'm in Chicagoland, if that matters... Thanks!


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## Lyndon (Aug 13, 2010)

I'm sure if you go over to Practical Machinist and ask this question you'll get tons of responses.

I see a lot of CNC machines selling at auctions. Probably lots in your area.

I've won end mills, inspection gear & other tooling from Hoff-Hilk online auctions and gotten OK prices. No screaming deals, but saved some money. Warning: wait until you attend the inspection day so you can look at the stuff in-person before bidding.


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## jhanko (Aug 13, 2010)

Lyndon said:


> I'm sure if you go over to Practical Machinist and ask this question you'll get tons of responses.



Yes, but I don't know anyone over there. I've grown to value and trust the members here and would like to hear their ideas.



> I see a lot of CNC machines selling at auctions. Probably lots in your area.



Maybe so, but I can't find them.



> I've won end mills, inspection gear & other tooling from Hoff-Hilk online auctions and gotten OK prices. No screaming deals, but saved some money. Warning: wait until you attend the inspection day so you can look at the stuff in-person before bidding.



Thanks for that lead. Nothing interests me right now, but I'll keep an eye out.


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## precisionworks (Aug 13, 2010)

> I have no problem with repairing/restoring heavy equipment if necessary.


Most used NC machinery falls into one of two classes - almost new at nearly new price, or so old that the controller is Stone Age & the machine needs a complete refit ... cost about 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost of a new machine :sigh:



> a lot of CNC machines selling at auctions.


+1

Auctions are probably *the *best place to buy a used NC lathe. Many companies expanded at the wrong time with little capital reserve & The Recession did them in. I get auction fliers three or four times a week advertising NC machines that were purchased new in 2005-2006-2007-2008, etc. It's a buyer's market at these auctions. 



> go over to Practical Machinist and ask this question


+1

There's a separate forum for CNC: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/

There's also a Machinery for Sale section, but most of the NC equipment falls into "Stone Age controller & needs a refit" ... with prices that would be optimistic even without The Recession.

New NC equipment isn't a bad deal as banks will long term finance the purchase & interest rates are at historic lows - just make sure the machine will pay for itself with work in progress. You can probably buy a decent new machine for $2k per month.

A newer used machine will save some money. Buy one at a poorly attended auction on a rainy day in the middle of the week & you can come out nicely. I'd look really closely if the machine is more than 10 years old, as it could easily cost a bunch to refit.


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## jhanko (Aug 13, 2010)

Thanks for the info. I agree that auctions would be the best option, but I'm having trouble locating them. Maybe I'm not searching right.

I can go new, but I won't get the quality I would like. I can get a brand new Omniturn GT-75 with c-axis and live tooling installed for well under $50k delivered to my house. This would do everything I need, but the fact that it's 1300 lbs scares me. Very little mass there. Must be very cheaply made. A good machine this size should be 3000-4000 lbs. I would rather get a 5-10 year old tank. I just can't locate one at an fair price.


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## precisionworks (Aug 13, 2010)

> This would do everything I need, but the fact that it's 1300 lbs scares me.


It isn't a large machine ... 4" diameter chuck, 6" swing, 12" of X travel & 9" of Z travel.

FWIW, the specs list weight at 1500# 



> Must be very cheaply made


They surely picked the most expensive components available to build a cheap machine :nana:

Meehanite headstock, composite cast base (much lighter than cast iron & many times stiffer), ABEC-7 cartridge bearing spindle (25 millionths TIR on the spindle ID), etc. It would have cost less & weighed more if made in ChiWan, but it's all manufactured in the USA. 

F&M Magazine just had a nice writeup on the GT75: http://www.fandmmag.com/print/Fabri...m-Solving-with-a-Gang-Style-Tool-Lathe-/1$858


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## KC2IXE (Aug 13, 2010)

The GT75 is a SMALL machine

I've been in the Richland Machine shop, and seen them setting them up, proving them out for the customer - cute little machine - emp on the LITTLE - they ONLY have a 12" z, and a 9" x travel - Picture a machine that takes up about as much room as a desk


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## KC2IXE (Aug 13, 2010)

Barry,
You also missed that the unit only takes 34"x55" inches of floor space - aka slightly LESS than 3ft by 5ft

I was watching one (in the east coast dealers) shop making spray nozzles - with #78 holes for the spray orafice, fast enough to be scary, complete with back facing etc - they looked a lot like oil burner nozzles, and might have been.

If I was doing small work (I am) and had a way to get it down the stairs short or ripping it apart (I don't), and had enough business to justify it, I'd buy one - having the East Coast dealer less than 20 minutes away, and having friends who have bought from his used machine dealership, I'd have no problem. In fact, he's on the list of "guys I'll visit when I go to buy my next lathe, to see what he has hanging around"

Lot lower inventory (and prices) than Machinery Values in Harrison from what I can see


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## precisionworks (Aug 13, 2010)

The GT75 is actually pretty heavy for its size ... the Trak TRL 1440EX has dimensions of 73" x 44" x 57", and weighs only 1800#.

http://www.southwesternindustries.com/swi/prod_lathes5.shtml

The Cubic GT Mini is another small machine that gets good reviews ... and they have a neat video 

http://www.cubicmachinery.com/videos/


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## precisionworks (Aug 13, 2010)

> Lot lower inventory (and prices) than Machinery Values


Machinery Values gets a lot of press on PM ... and none of it is positive 

They recently listed a Monarch EE, pretty much the Rolls Royce of small, manual lathes. Machinery Values did a Krylon Rebuild ... here's the qoute from the PM thread:



> They painted the wipers, the slide ways that the bearings run against, etc ... it will have to be disassembled and the paint removed to get it to work. What idiots.


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## KC2IXE (Aug 13, 2010)

Yeah, I know MV's rep - IF - IF I was going to buy from them, I'd go visit, and insist on an Running demo - I know folks that have been out to them - say they have a LOT of stuff, and they have gotten some good stuff - usually NOT stuff that is on ebay - get it before they "rebuild" it (BTW for those lurking - they are imachine on ebay. Like I said, they are usually near the top end of the price scale

RE a 10EE - I've gotten to do 1-2 cuts on one owned by a friend who lives out in New Mexico - The ONLY problems I can see
1)There is NO chance to get one down my stairs, where if I took an HLVH of it's base I could
2)it has a 16C spindle - IF you consider that a 'problem' (it can be either a problem or a feature - depending if your looking at tooling cost vs capability)

Once upon a time, I saw a 10EE long bed (think it's called a 100EE?) with Inch Metric threading - Back when Meridian Machine was on Long Island - Tried to talk a friend (who was looking for a manual lathe for his commercial shop at the time) into buying it, but he didn't - and the price was even wonderful - about 10 grand - tooled, and it was in almost mint condition. Needless to say, by the time I talked him into calling - it was GONE


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## jhanko (Aug 13, 2010)

The GT-75 is looking better and better. Looks like a good machine to learn on. I can get a refurbished one with 6 month warranty for $21k. C-axis and live tools additional. I was seriously looking at the Cubic GTV as there's no c-axis available on the GT Mini. It looks like a much nicer machine, but the starting price is $18k more than the GT-75.

I'm going to give Omniturn another call tomorrow. I've got some more questions.

KC2IXE: Have you seen the live tooling in action on these? I'm wondering if the c-axis resolution and the controller are good enough to do small engraving.


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## KC2IXE (Aug 13, 2010)

Yes, but I don't remember - it was a while back - too long.


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## brickbat (Aug 14, 2010)

KC2IXE said:


> (10EE) has a 16C spindle



I think most of them have D1-3 spindles. Mine does. (doesn't make it easier to get into your basement, though


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## KC2IXE (Aug 14, 2010)

Yes, D1-3, but they use 16c COLLETS (or at least Russ' does), vs 5C collets on say an HLVH (aka what collets, not what chuck mount). 5C are probable they MOST common collet size, and can be found everywhere - cheap.

The thing is, 5C collets top out at 1 1/16, where 16C goes to 1 5/8" - obviously a significant diference


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## precisionworks (Aug 14, 2010)

> 5C are probable they MOST common collet size, and can be found everywhere - cheap.


+1

My used Hardinge 5C set came from Joe at Plaza Machinery ... $12 for the 16th & 32nd sizes, $8 for the 64th sizes. If you do much collet work, you'll want all 65 to cover the full range.

If your machine takes 16C collets, Hardinge makes an adapter that allows using 5C collets in the 16C spindle. The problem is that concentricity runs about .002" TIR or worse, which would work only on parts that can be turned in a single chucking. If the part is being machined on one end and the machined end is then used for chucking for a second op, the TIR would be unacceptable for many jobs:http://www.shophardinge.com/assets/PDFfiles/B050E%28LR%29.pdf

If you want to use a Hardinge collet block on the mill, 5C can also be run in a 16C block, with the adapter:http://www.shophardinge.com/assets/docs/B78colBlk.pdf 

These blocks are most often seen on NC machines where they are gang assembled on a tombstone pallet changer, allowing four sided indexing around a vertical axis or around a horizontal axis (good photos of this in this link): http://www.hardinge.com/usr/pdf/collet/2365.pdf


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## brickbat (Aug 14, 2010)

KC2IXE said:


> Yes, D1-3, but they use 16c COLLETS



Actually the EE spindle bore does not take a collet directly. It needs an adapter. Mine came with a Monarch D1-3/5C adapter, and I also have a 2J collet adapter, 2Js go up to 1=3/8, but like 16C are hard to find at a good price...

Oh, and the good news is that the collet nose adapter comes off the spindle easily, thus making the machine 5 pounds lighter, and that much easier to get down your stairs 

I guess my point is that there's nothing about the spindle tooling aspects of the EE that are disadvantageous. Size and weight? 'nother story...


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## Rothrandir (Aug 15, 2010)

What exactly are you looking to do with this machine? That will be the biggest factor in what you get. Are you looking to do 1-2pc runs, a couple dozen pieces, hundreds or thousands?

I don't know what you're looking to do or what your experience is, and I'm not trying to second guess what you're trying to do, but a lot of people think that a CNC is a magic box and will automatically make life easy and will do everything they need it to do, and that really isn't the case.
It's hard to know what to suggest without knowing what you're hoping to accomplish.


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## cmacclel (Aug 15, 2010)

I would love to get a C-Axis. The GT-75 has a Air spindle C-axis correct? If so is it powerful enough? No problem with light cuts in aluminum or brass but can it handle harder materials? Your best bet I also would think would be 2 seperate machines. Good luck finding a CNC lathe with a 7.5hp and under spindle. There are not many out there. What lathe are you looking for a slant bed production style? 


Mac


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## jhanko (Aug 16, 2010)

For starters, I will be making parts in batches of 100. Examples of the types of parts I'll be making are in the pics below. I will be working strictly with titanium in the .5"-1" range.

I'm not sure if the GT-75 is strong enough. I still haven't got a straight answer from Omniturn. I will be calling them again tomorrow. The Haas salesman told me that their OL-1 lathe will not handle the job, and it is a similar class/power/weight as the GT-75. There's quite a few CNC lathes in the 7.5 hp range. Finding them used at a fair price is what I'm struggling with. I've got my eye on a Haas GT-10 and a Mazak Quickturn 6T. Both of these are 7.5 hp tanks that will easily turn what I need, but no c-axis or live tools. I'd have to get a small mill with a 4th axis for the 2nd ops.


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## precisionworks (Aug 16, 2010)

> making parts in batches of 100


On quantities that small, a local CNC shop can knock those out at low cost. Figure $200-$300 for setup, which is only $2-$3 per part when spread over 100 pieces. Add the cost of the Ti barstock & the time to machine the part for a total per piece cost.

When you get to larger production numbers, owning NC equipment makes economic sense. At the 100 piece level, when the amortized cost of the machine & tooling are added, the parts will be incredibly expensive.


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## PEU (Aug 16, 2010)

Barry, while what you say is true, sometimes its difficult to convince a shop to do a run of 100 pieces, even if you pay for setups and all associated expenses, they are just not prepared for small batches. 


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Aug 16, 2010)

> sometimes its difficult to convince a shop to do a run of 100 pieces


Pablo, I don't live at the edge of the earth, but you can see the edge from where I live  That is to say, I'm not in the heart of industrial country. Yet there are two small NC shops that will do as few as one piece. The one piece cost is a killer, as you pay $200-$300 setup + material cost + machine time. They sometimes make one part for me (for a customer) as you certainly want to catch any errors before 1000 parts are run.



> they are just not prepared for small batches.


I'd rephrase that to say that small jobs can be a PITA, depending on the customer. I turn away work whenever the customer cannot clearly describe what is wanted ... no drawing, no dimensions, no tolerances, nothing. Those are "I pass" jobs 

I *don't* turn away someone who's willing to pay for the time it takes to make a one off part, or a small quantity of those parts. A deposit equal to one half of the job estimate is due before work starts, with balance due upon completion. Some of those small jobs are highly profitable, others pay less, but I always make at least my hourly shop rate.

CNC shops are everywhere today, but you may have to dig a bit to find those that will do small runs.


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## unterhausen (Aug 17, 2010)

I can see a lot of advantages to having your own CNC for a product like that. You don't have a batch of inventory that you paid someone else to make. That's a whole order of magnitude difference from having a pile of bar stock in the back of the shop (which is bad enough). I know of one person that has a going business in his garage making a few parts at a time that couldn't be done economically without a cnc.

I've known a couple of people that got their cnc from HGR and retrofitted it with EMC. That's a pursuit in and of itself, not everyone is ready to commit to doing that much work.


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## precisionworks (Aug 17, 2010)

> got their cnc from HGR


+1

HGR has tons (literally) of machine tools and is always willing to deal 



> and retrofitted it with EMC. That's a pursuit in and of itself, not everyone is ready to commit to doing that much work.


I've read about a number of older machines refitted with new a new controller, servos, ball screws, etc. Seems like the do-it-yourself version ends up costing $5k or so, plus a month or two of work. Or have it done by a shop that specializes in refits and spend $10k-$15k.

Plus what was spent for the machine :nana:


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## unterhausen (Aug 17, 2010)

a lot of old cnc machines are in good shape mechanically and even the drives and electronics are ok, but the control is unusable. That is the perfect machine for a retrofit. Cost is the machine and a computer with interface, so approximately $1-2k depending on the computer.

I'm not really advocating for this approach since it hasn't worked out that well for me. It takes someone that really, really wants a working machine or a really good retrofit candidate.


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## mototraxtech (Aug 18, 2010)

not sure if its been mentioned but the HAAS machines look great and the price is really good if you ask me.

Check this out
http://www.haascnc.com/specs.asp?ID=TL-3&mdl=TL-3&webid=LATHE_TL#CNCLatheTreeModel

You might be able to pick one up at an auction at a good price too.


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## precisionworks (Aug 18, 2010)

> HAAS machines look great and the price is really good


+1

There's a 2001 Haas SL30T on the PM forum for $36.5k. Not a tiny machine, weighing 16,000#, 30hp spindle, etc. Looks to be in decent shape for a machine nearly 10 years old:







http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/machinery-sale-wanted/fs-haas-lathe-sl30-t-208582/

The closest current Haas is the SL40, base price of $100k, so the pricing on this one is in the ball park:

http://www.haascnc.com/details.asp?ID=SL-40&webid=LATHE_SL#CNCLatheTreeModel


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## precisionworks (Aug 18, 2010)

> power requirements (7.5 hp max)


Why the 7.5 hp number, Jeff? That size motor would draw (roughly) 37.5a at 240v, single phase, and run from a 50a circuit.

In many parts of the country, the local electric utility will install a separate meter for your shop. My shop is on such a meter, and has a 200a service, but going to 400a or 600a would cost almost nothing from the utility company. 

If you buy an "average" CNC lathe, figure 20 hp to 30 hp for the spindle *when cutting under maximum load*. For the parts you showed in the photos, your max load would be just a fraction of that. The NEC does require that conductors are sized for the maximum hp of the machine, even though you'll rarely if ever hit that number.

Lot of used machines in the market today in the 20-30 hp range.


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## precisionworks (Aug 18, 2010)

Are you in Joliet? There's an upcoming auction in Cincinnati, OH, but that's 300 miles from your location. Lots of newer CNC equipment. Mostly larger machines, except one Okuma Crown L1060 Type 762S.

http://www.cia-auction.com/auctiondata/images/news/Metalex.pdf


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## KC2IXE (Aug 18, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> +1
> 
> HGR has tons (literally) of machine tools and is always willing to deal




Saw you mention HGR - who dat?


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## precisionworks (Aug 18, 2010)

HGR Industrial is probably not _the_ largest surplus dealer in North America, but they do have a 12 acre showroom in Cleveland, Ohio. They bring in about 60 trailer loads of equipment each week, so the inventory changes constantly.

Their eBay store has "only" 3500 listings: http://stores.ebay.com/HGR-Industrial-Surplus

The brick & mortar store carries over 70,000 items: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/

Most of their current lathe inventory is manual, with a few (mostly) older NC machines. They are pleasant to speak with on the phone, and all prices are negotiable


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## KC2IXE (Aug 18, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> HGR Industrial is probably not _the_ largest surplus dealer in North America, but they do have a 12 acre showroom in Cleveland, Ohio. They bring in about 60 trailer loads of equipment each week, so the inventory changes constantly.



Anazing I never heard of them, but I usually set a 200 mile limit on my machine searchs, so I can pick up


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## precisionworks (Aug 19, 2010)

> I usually set a 200 mile limit on my machine searchs


Freight costs today are pretty low, even with the various fuel surcharges - lots of trucking companies will haul for almost nothing over their actual cost, just to keep their drivers on the payroll. I shipped a small item (350#) on a pallet, distance was 700 miles, cost was $105  My South Bend lathe went just over 400 miles, weighed about 1200# with tooling and pallet, and cost $300.

Lots of people are concerned about shipping costs, and they can be high from California to New York, but regional costs usually aren't too bad. Lots of larger freight companies offer a "first time shipper" discount that takes about 70% off the list price.

This is the best buyers market I can remember, as not many companies want to spend any money and quite a few individuals are concerned about their job prospects. It won't last forever, but this is a great time to buy


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## jhanko (Aug 19, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Why the 7.5 hp number, Jeff? That size motor would draw (roughly) 37.5a at 240v, single phase, and run from a 50a circuit.



I was going to run the shop off of my house service, which is 125A. On a typical summer day, I figure I'll have 60A available. This will be split up for machinery, lighting, a small A/C unit and recepticles. I have only found one machine that will run on single phase, and that's the Haas OL-1, that won't handle the job. Even the GT-75 is only available in 3 phase with the c-axis option. So now I have to consider converter loss. Also, a lot of these machines will have coolant pump and hydraulic pump motors.

I never considered running seperate service to the shop. I'll have to look into that. It would be very easy, as the pole is in our back yard. We're the only house around with underground service.  If there's a charge for this, I'm sure I can deduct it.

Even if I get the dedicated service, I'm still stuck with the size of the shop. Another hurdle is that the machine will have to be rigged to the shop through 40 ft of yard. I could just picture a 10,000 lb machine permanently sinking into our back yard. We'll, maybe we surround it with rocks an turn it into a fountain.



> Are you in Joliet? There's an upcoming auction in Cincinnati, OH



Yes, I'm in Joliet. That auction looks nice, and I would gladly drive there, but all those machines look too big. It would be nice if they had similar auctions going on in Chicagoland now.

I'm still looking, but still struggling with these dealers. I recently found 4 dealers across the country selling the same machine. Same pictures and all. Unbelievable...:shakehead


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## precisionworks (Aug 19, 2010)

> the machine will have to be rigged to the shop through 40 ft of yard


That shouldn't present a problem unless there's been lots of rain (or snow melt) just before the move. Most riggers have a stack of steel plates that are laid end to end so the machine & moving dollies never touch the bare ground. The plates might be on your grass for an hour or two, but your yard should not be damaged.

This auction is in Milwaukee: http://www.hilcoind.com/sales/lots....820&SALE_REFERENCE_ID=JFMPFMQTMX8192010101156

Perfection Machinery (Chicago) has been around forever: http://www.perfectionmachinery.com/c.lathec/cnc-lathes-chuckers.aspx

Stuart Millner does a nice job hosting an auction, and goes all over the country - they will gladly put you on the mailing list: http://www.sbmac.com/Auctions.aspx


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