# I think I know what Apple is going to do!



## js (Jan 6, 2009)

I've had a revelation (or feel as if I've had one), and a number of things have all fallen into place. I don't know if I'm late to this, and only one among a number of others who have already said this or something similar, or if maybe this is far from widely speculated, but either way, I wanted to post this to see what others here think. A proviso: please let's keep all Apple vs. Microsoft sort of stuff out of this thread, otherwise it will turn into a train wreck sooner or later. If you want to join in the speculation and discussion about what Apple Inc. may or may not do in the coming years, that's great! But please refrain from participating if you won't be able to restrain yourself from saying how stupid Apple is vs. PC, or how stupid PC's are (or Windows) vs. Macs and OS X.

'nuff said.

So, here are the pieces of the puzzle that have all come together in my mind:

1. For months or even years before the 14 October, 2008 release of the new MacBooks, people were speculating, often very excitedly, about what the new line-up would be. Would there be an eSATA port? Would they finally offer a micro laptop? How would the aesthetics be redesigned? And so on. Then, when they were unveiled, most Mac fans (or at least many) were disappointed. No Firewire ports on the MB, and only one FW on the MBP, no eSATA, and--most contentious of all--no matte screen option. Also, there wasn't really much, if any, increase in performance, most significantly in the battery runtime. The power consumption was reduced, but so was the battery capacity, going from 60WH to 50WH (I think that's right). Also, Apple went to the eventual new industry standard display connector, the DisplayPort (or mini-DisplayPort), from the DVI. They did this at a time when it is almost impossible to find any computers or monitors that use the displayport standard. AFAIK, only Apple is selling computers and display(s) that use it. Why the early adoption? Granted, it is technically better--like going from parallel ATA to serial ATA--from a bulky 80 wire ribbon connector to a slim 7 pin SATA cable. But why right now? Not a popular move. Overall, the newline up seems (nay, is) somewhat of an anti-climax. Perhaps there is nothing to this except for a decent, but not-so-stellar update to the MB and MBP line-up. Or perhaps not.

2. Not only are all the laptops going to glossy only (and not just glossy, but glass), but also the monitors seem headed that way as well, with the release of the new 24 inch glossy display using the new DisplayPort connector standard, and with special considerations for those using a MB/MBP (the monitor has a built in power cable for laptop charging).

3. The unibody is undoubtedly cool, and when I watched the video at first I had a twinge of regret that I had just purchased (a week or so before) a classic styled, non-unibody MBP, but seriously, why would you _need_ that kind of precision, those kind of tolerances. The previous MBP was plenty ridged enough without being machined from a single block of aluminum. Why go to all the expense and up-front cost to set up production of the uni-body laptops?

4. For a long time now, people have been wondering why Apple doesn't come out with a Tabliture PC, where you can write on the screen with a pen--that sort of thing. The iPhone and iPod touch basically _scream_ out for just such a laptop.

5. For a while now, people have been wondering why Apple doesn't enter the so-called micro-PC market, with a super small laptop suitable for surfing the web and emailing and so on.

6. The new version of OS X--Snow Leopard--will not have any new bells and whistles--nothing like time machine or spot light or dashboard, but rather will be a meaner, leaner, slimmer, more efficient version of Leopard. The name even announces this fact!

So, how does all this fit together?

Well, I say that Apple will come out with a laptop the size of the macbook (or probably smaller) which will be essentially a giant iPhone in design, with the whole "top" being the screen--a TOUCH screen, with a very sophisticated interface, and like the iPhone or iPod Touch, the keyboard will appear displayed on the screen (but only when needed). If you've ever used an iP or iPT, you know that that very small screen serves much better than its size would suggest, because you can do a pinch motion to contract, or the reverse to expand the screen and can so easily move about the screen just by touching it and moving your finger. A 12 inch touch screen would be quite the equal of a 15 inch normal screen in my opinion. And this explains the move to glossy-only. You can't really do a matte type touch screen. Or shouldn't, anyway.

And this explains the whole unibody thing. They WILL need that kind of precision for an iMacBook Touch (or whatever). And it also explains why they want to go to the DisplayPort connector--because that will allow for equal data-streaming in BOTH directions--both TO the screen, and back from the screen. The Touch screen. Or rather the touch external monitor.

And it also (possibly) explains the smaller battery and Snow Leopard. If you are concerned with getting the most from your smaller battery, a more efficiently coded OS is very important. It's why you wouldn't want to run OS X Tiger on your iPhone! (plus, of course, the less capable CPU)

And you will see the intel solid state drives used instead of spinning platter hard drives.

I imagine that if you want a real, physical keyboard that you'd plug in an external keyboard (or a wireless bluetooth keyboard), and same for if you want a larger screen--external touch monitor. Or maybe the physical keyboard will retract from under and inside the body, like on those cell phones where the screen slides over or away from over the keyboard. But somehow that doesn't feel right.

Anyway, whatever, the main thing is that I think it's inevitable that Apple will go to just this sort of laptop at some point in the future, and it seem to me that they are in the process of gearing up for it right now.

Thoughts? Speculations? Comments? Links to where this was all said earlier and better?

Thanks!


----------



## Moka (Jan 6, 2009)

I have to say a very interesting theory, I'm actually typing away right now on one of the Unibody MacBooks, and I have to say they're wonderful. The battery life is actually offset by the fact they are using alot more efficient electronics the flagship of which is the new LED based screen.
I'm getting 5hrs+ on my MacBook with wireless going... (which is the figure mac quoted iirc) I'll be very interested to see what snow-leopard brings to the table as far as the battery efficiency is concerned)

I believe _eventually, _(and I can't stress eventually enough) they will come out with a full touch screen tablet style computer, however they've been tried in the past by PC compatible companies and failed, whether Apple will succeed or not is another story...


I agree the getting rid of firewire on the macbooks was a VERY odd business decision, but they made it for a reason, and that reason is quite simply that firewire is an apple only thing, yes in an 'apple world' Apple would love everyone to use only apple products and have that monopoly, but I think they may be doing this simply because they realise they can convert more of the market by doing away with (some of) their proprietary products they have out. And switching over to some new products as part of the new line launch is a good move IMHO, the mini-DVI port as you said is actually a lot better and there will be other companies falling into line this year now... and as for the DDR3 ram, and the new graphics chipset, well that really does take the cake...

Finally the glass screen, they did that for 3 reasons that I can see (4 if your theory of the touch based tablet mac comes to fruition), one; for the fact they're using and LED screen not LCD (iirc, the glass is part of the led structure of the new screen) two; is asthetic, the glass is beautiful, imho the seemless glass looks awesome, something that could not have been achieved on the classic macbook chassis and three; the environmental side of the new macs, they (apple) tried to make the entire macbook recyclable, they got rid of alot of the plastic parts of the macbook and used arsenic free glass, the other reason to use glass was to eliminate the sheer number of parts involved in making the macbooks, then screen portion of the new macbooks has less than half the parts of the older models. Less parts (and the remaining parts being almost entirely recyclable) makes for an incredibly environmentally friendly laptop.

If you can't tell I am a little smitten for my new lappy, (i'm not entering into the mac v pc war but...) I was a pc fanatic, been using them since I was 4yo and loved them, but after using the new macbook (particularly the new trackpad... which is one of the best features) I believe Apple are on their way to becoming industry leaders where laptops are concerned and definately a better option for my personal uses...


----------



## carrot (Jan 6, 2009)

IMHO Apple has always been leaders in the laptop market and if what you speculate is true js then it means a few interesting things. I for one hope you are right because I am always interested to get new hardware and I have been holding out on getting one of the netbooks as long as I can so that I can perhaps ride the first wave of Apple's entry into the fray.

Firstly, this is interesting because you could consider it Apple's take on the netbooks, but with a seriously different spin. The argument against the touch screen in this case (that it is difficult to type quickly on) is seriously lessened because the smaller keyboards of the netbooks are tough enough to write on, and with practice typing on a virtual keyboard as used on the iPhone becomes pretty easy to type quickly and accurately. Apple's experience with the virtual keyboards on their phones will help here, since their pattern recognition software is extremely good and corrects for common typos of "big" thumbs. Add to the fact that Apple pretty much has a monopoly on the most intuitive multi-touch gestures and they have a compelling product for which no other manufacturer has an answer. Because Apple controls both the software and hardware of the experience they are better able to make this happen -- the iPhones already blow tabletPC's out of the water as far as interface is concerned and this may be Apple's long awaited answer to the tablet format. 

For some reason your prediction seems to coincide in my mind with the rumors about an 8" iPod tablet-- 8-10" seems like a particular sweet spot for a small tablet/netbook device, especially if well-executed. Apple is very much concerned with both hardware and software simplicity and I don't see a folding or sliding out keyboard as possible. The most likely thing I can imagine is using Bluetooth or USB to connect one of Apple's very sleek, slim keyboards. I can't see myself excited at the prospect of lugging both around so perhaps Apple or a third party will offer a tidy solution (a nice leather case that holds the device and a slim keyboard would be lovely). What I would be really curious to see is how Apple takes what they have learned in making the iPhone/Touch OS and adapting it to regular OS X. Apple is always very good at coming up with "crazy" things that work out and you have to wonder how the OS will deal without a proper cursor. I imagine there would be no trackpad, or if there was it would be a virtual one, but that seems inelegant. Unfortunately I find the tablet format cumbersome -- typing and then taking a pen to the screen, etc, but if they just "grew" the iPhone interface to fit OS X it should prove far less cumbersome than the traditional way.

Looking back at what I said I am not sure I made any sense at all but if I did I will call it purposeful and intentional.


----------



## tiktok 22 (Jan 6, 2009)

Introducing the new MACBOOK WHEEL!!!!


----------



## greenlight (Jan 6, 2009)

tiktok 22 said:


> Introducing the new MACBOOK WHEEL!!!!


Nice.


----------



## WadeF (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm by no means a Mac guy, a fan of Mac, etc. However, I use iTunes and I have had various iPod's, the iTouch, and now the 3G iPhone. From using my iTouch and iPhone i always thing "Why doesn't Apple make a larger version of these?" Like you said, around a 12" screen, maybe smaller. They could put GPS in it, basically everything the iPhone has, minus the phone part. It could bluetooth to the iPhone to send and receive calls, transfer data, etc maybe. I'd love to sit around with something like that to surf the web, etc. I do plenty of it with the iPhone, but a larger unit would make it easier. 

You're probably right on with your thinking js. I never was aware of all these puzzle pieces, but it certainly would look like this is the direction Apple is preparing to head in. Why lug around a laptop with a mechanical keyboard, folds open, etc, when it could be a solid unit, like a larger iPhone/iTouch, that would do everything most people would need it to (check email, surf the web, run iPhone/iTouch apps, etc).


----------



## Black Rose (Jan 6, 2009)

tiktok 22 said:


> Introducing the new MACBOOK WHEEL!!!!


"Virtually unbreakable unless dropped or hit" :laughing:


----------



## carrot (Jan 6, 2009)

tiktok 22 said:


> Introducing the new MACBOOK WHEEL!!!!


Nice thread derailment. :thumbsup:


----------



## js (Jan 6, 2009)

Moka said:


> I have to say a very interesting theory, I'm actually typing away right now on one of the Unibody MacBooks, and I have to say they're wonderful. The battery life is actually offset by the fact they are using alot more efficient electronics the flagship of which is the new LED based screen.
> I'm getting 5hrs+ on my MacBook with wireless going... (which is the figure mac quoted iirc) I'll be very interested to see what snow-leopard brings to the table as far as the battery efficiency is concerned)



Yes, indeed, I didn't mention that, but I should have. The runtime is the same even though the battery is smaller, due to the more efficient LED screen, mainly. But even so, this has been an area of complaint for a long time now. Users want a longer runtime. If you're watching a movie, you have only just over 2 hours of battery life, which is problematic for watching some movies! If only Apple had kept the same 60WH battery, then you would have had a longer runtime. 20 percent longer. And thats something. But, they didn't go for it. Why though? Could what I'm saying be the answer? Maybe . . .



> I believe _eventually, _(and I can't stress eventually enough) they will come out with a full touch screen tablet style computer, however they've been tried in the past by PC compatible companies and failed, whether Apple will succeed or not is another story...
> 
> 
> I agree the getting rid of firewire on the macbooks was a VERY odd business decision, but they made it for a reason, and that reason is quite simply that firewire is an apple only thing, yes in an 'apple world' Apple would love everyone to use only apple products and have that monopoly, but I think they may be doing this simply because they realise they can convert more of the market by doing away with (some of) their proprietary products they have out. And switching over to some new products as part of the new line launch is a good move IMHO, the mini-DVI port as you said is actually a lot better and there will be other companies falling into line this year now... and as for the DDR3 ram, and the new graphics chipset, well that really does take the cake...



Firewire, aka IEEE 1394, isn't an Apple only thing, actually. It is an industry standard. True, it's development was largely (but not entirely) driven by Apple, but you can find PC motherboards that support it, and PCI or PCIe cards that provide it for PC's. And Firewire remains the primary transfer mechanism for almost all high end professional audio and video equipment, in fact. But, all of that said, I think that dropping it on the macbook line was a good move. Dropping the FW400 port on the unibody MB*pro* wasn't such a good move, in my opinion. And I am not alone. Firewire is awesome. Even though FW400 seems like it should be less capable than USB 2.0, in my experience, FW400 is noticeably better for external hard drives or cameras or audio/video. Plus, the spec provides substantially more power on the buss to the FW devices. I have an external DAC/ADC/MIDI interface (Apogee Duet) that is powered entirely from the FW buss, and which has a nice headphone amp in it that will drive even difficult to drive cans (although it likes the grados best, from all reports). Anyway . . .



> Finally the glass screen, they did that for 3 reasons that I can see (4 if your theory of the touch based tablet mac comes to fruition), one; for the fact they're using and LED screen not LCD (iirc, the glass is part of the led structure of the new screen) two; is asthetic, the glass is beautiful, imho the seemless glass looks awesome, something that could not have been achieved on the classic macbook chassis and three; the environmental side of the new macs, they (apple) tried to make the entire macbook recyclable, they got rid of alot of the plastic parts of the macbook and used arsenic free glass, the other reason to use glass was to eliminate the sheer number of parts involved in making the macbooks, then screen portion of the new macbooks has less than half the parts of the older models. Less parts (and the remaining parts being almost entirely recyclable) makes for an incredibly environmentally friendly laptop.



There are few points that need correcting here. First of all is that you can have an LED backlit _matte_ screen. My MacBook Pro, in point of fact, has just such a screen. Second, I could have gotten my classic MBP with a glass screen if I wanted to--the chasis supports it just fine. There was always the option to have either on the MBP, until after the 14th of October of 2008. Third, graphics professionals, by a significant majority, lament the loss of the matte option, although _overall_ that preference is a minority preference.

But, I do love the new MB's. I love the unibody and I love the new trackpad. That is _nice_ and is the one thing I really wish I could have on my classic MBP.



> If you can't tell I am a little smitten for my new lappy, (i'm not entering into the mac v pc war but...) I was a pc fanatic, been using them since I was 4yo and loved them, but after using the new macbook (particularly the new trackpad... which is one of the best features) I believe Apple are on their way to becoming industry leaders where laptops are concerned and definately a better option for my personal uses...



The odd thing about the redesign of the lineup is that they basically got rid of the macbook Pro's and turned the mid-level macbooks into pros, more or less. They got much better graphics (but not as good as a classic pro like mine, hehe), an aluminum chasis, and better performance overall. Nice. But the pros design was morphed into the same geometrical layout as the macbooks. The DVD's/CD's load from the side now, and all the ports were moved over to the left. That's actually not good at all. Having a USB port on either side is best. So, I think the macbooks got a big win in the lineup change, but the pros really took a hit, for my taste. This is why I'm glad I bought a MBP just before the change.

Anyway, getting back on topic, I think that the glossy only screen thing and the unibody design change really do point towards a touch screen netbook type deal.


----------



## js (Jan 6, 2009)

carrot said:


> IMHO Apple has always been leaders in the laptop market and if what you speculate is true js then it means a few interesting things. I for one hope you are right because I am always interested to get new hardware and I have been holding out on getting one of the netbooks as long as I can so that I can perhaps ride the first wave of Apple's entry into the fray.
> 
> Firstly, this is interesting because you could consider it Apple's take on the netbooks, but with a seriously different spin. The argument against the touch screen in this case (that it is difficult to type quickly on) is seriously lessened because the smaller keyboards of the netbooks are tough enough to write on, and with practice typing on a virtual keyboard as used on the iPhone becomes pretty easy to type quickly and accurately. Apple's experience with the virtual keyboards on their phones will help here, since their pattern recognition software is extremely good and corrects for common typos of "big" thumbs. Add to the fact that Apple pretty much has a monopoly on the most intuitive multi-touch gestures and they have a compelling product for which no other manufacturer has an answer. Because Apple controls both the software and hardware of the experience they are better able to make this happen -- the iPhones already blow tabletPC's out of the water as far as interface is concerned and this may be Apple's long awaited answer to the tablet format.
> 
> ...



carrot,

It makes perfect sense. To me, anyway.

So, if they do do what I am thinking, they will definitely keep OS X, growing the touch interface to fit it. There won't be a trackpad, I don't think. The cursor will likely go away, or if it stays, it will move when you touch it and move it. But, why would it be needed? Maybe I just haven't given it enough thought, but it doesn't seem that disappearing the cursor will cause much trouble.

As for the physical keyboard thing, I agree: it would be cumbersome and silly. They will likely just have you use a bluetooth or USB external keyboard if you want an actual physical keyboard. And yes, there would likely be third party carry solutions so you could easily lug around both if you wanted. And, yes, the virtual keyboard-on-the-screen is actually remarkably easy to use once you get used to it--and that's with a freaking micro-layout on the iPod Touch or iPhone. A larger one would be that much easier. Obviously, it's not ideal if you're doing a lot of typing, writing a paper or a novel or something! But much of the time, when we're doing our routine computing stuff, we don't need to intensively use the keyboard. And having a laptop that was just one big iPhone/iPod Touch type deal would be remarkably easy to port around and use, via the touch interface.

And no freaking pen. That's just a step backward. The step forward would be the multi-touch interface taken to a two-hand level, with gestures involving multiple fingers on one hand, and even two hand gestures.

As for the "macbook wheel", yes, it was funny and does target some areas that deserve to have a little fun made of them,

BUT

seriously, the iPod wheel interface is a marvel of ergonomic and intuitive design. The first time I used an iPod, my sister spent just three seconds point out the interface and then just handed it to me, and I just started using it, and it was freaking amazing. When I wanted to do something, and hadn't been told how, I just did what came to mind and it worked. And the touch interface on my iPod Touch is just as amazing and intuitive. Brilliant, really. It points the way to so much more.

And isn't all of this stuff already in our faces? Don't we see the technology on TV (CNN's big election map touch screen) and in movies (the new bond movie, quantum of solace, or that movie "the island" where the people were human organ donor clones, for example). Don't we see whole DESKS that are big touch screen LED/LCD screens?

It's coming. Imagine being able to just grab two windows with three or four fingers on each hand, and just move them in different directions at the same time, or even collapsing one into a smaller view, while expanding the other and bringing it into the center of the screen. It's like something out of a movie--like Minority Report or Johnny Mnemonic (terrible movie).

And of course, you could rotate the iNet Touch (or whatever) so that it was in landscape or portrait mode. And yes, it could have built in GPS as well as WiFi. We're right at a knee-point in a curve here. We're going to see all this technology come together, much as it has come together in the iPhone. With Fibre Optic To the Premises, and it's incredible data transfer rates, we will be getting internet, phone, TV,--all of it, via the digital optical line into our house. And the cellular and/or wi-fi will start to get better and better and be more and more prevalent.

I'm getting ahead of myself, though. The point of this thread is just that I think that Apple is going to change the game, once again, by offering a touch screen computer/laptop that will redefine what the laptop is. I can see it. It's coming.


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 6, 2009)

I think it is terrible. Touch screens are dirty. Touch screens require more movement of more body parts to achieve things than a mouse or trackball does. And typing on such a thing is good, like you said, if you don't actually need to type. A lot of people, like me, need to type, and will be left out with this sort of development.

I feared it might come to this for years, and seems doom is upon us all now :green:

bernie


----------



## js (Jan 6, 2009)

bernie,

You are a remarkable and exceptional man! I love your presence in and contributions to our humble community! You have interesting and unusual takes on things. hehe

Yes, touch screens get all grimed up with finger oil, but they are super easy to clean.

As for movement of body parts, well, there's a lot of movement required to go from typing on a keyboard, to reaching over to grab a mouse, or to moving your hand down to reach the trackpad. If your hands were _already_ right there at the screen, which was at a 45 degree angle close to and in front of you, then you would actually need to move a lot _less_ than normal, in my estimation. Your hands would just be there on the screen, and would not need to leave it.

As for typing, yes, I totally agree, a real keyboard is best--but, as mentioned, you just carry one! The touch laptop would be more or less just the screen part of a normal laptop, without the keyboard. So you could always add it back in.


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 6, 2009)

js ... :kiss:

The trouble is that usually I either type a lot or use the mouse a lot, I don't alter 2 times per second . And with the touchscreen I need to activate and deaktivate the keyboard and move things around with both hands, gasp! This is cumbersome.

If I need an external keyboard, I also need an external mouse since the screen is too far away to mess with ... and I need something to make the screen stand up. Making the whole thing a 4-part show, not counting the power supply. How terrible :green:

For "textworkers" like me, this is really bad news. Nice gadget, and I am sure I'll get the craving sensation to get one, but as with the iPhone, I'll resist.

bernie


----------



## js (Jan 6, 2009)

Bernie,

Good points. Taken.

And, you should know that I'm a big fan of real keyboards, as evidenced by my whole thread on the subject. Even so . . . the whole touch screen thing is freaking cool! It just is.


----------



## Pher (Jan 8, 2009)

I'm not quite sure whether I like the idea or not. After playing around with my iPod touch I got this Christmas the interface is very easy to use and the typing really surprised on how easy it is to type. However I don't know how great it would translate to a larger screen. I don't know how ergonomic it would be to type on a flat surface. But it would not be to hard to have a slim Bluetooth keyboard. As for the touch interface and gestures it would like keissling said be easier to scroll on a pad than to keep draging and flicking your finger up and down the screen. I do however like the idea of not having a combersome folding screen which gets in the way when sitting back and relaxing. If they released a larger iPhone or iPod touch I would see one before getting it. 

Also I posted this off my iPod if that gives you an idea of ease of use.


----------



## Tempest UK (Jan 8, 2009)

I love my iPhone 3G and my early 2008 MacBook Pro. I would _hate_ for Apple to attempt to combine the two by releasing a large touchscreen computer. Touchscreens lend themselves well to small, portable devices such as iPhone and iPod touch, because you're rarely going to want/need to do any large amount of typing on them. A few quick emails, SMS, web browsing etc, is about the full extent of what most people use these devices for.

To have touchscreen keyboards on a "proper" computer such as the MacBook would be terrible. Entertaining for 5 minutes or so, but...actually no. I'd be sick of it well before 5 minutes were up. I couldn't stand to type out lengthy documents on such a device. 

It _could_ work, if you just took a normal MacBook and replaced the existing keyboard with a touchscreen keyboard. But that's just implementing new technology for the sake of it.

Regards,
Tempest


----------



## js (Jan 8, 2009)

The device that I suspect Apple will release won't be aimed at replacing the macbook pro, but will be an entry into the netbooks, the micro laptops, whose purpose is more aimed towards email, surfing the web, and such-like.

However, one thing I don't understand is this concern with not being able to "scroll on a pad". I mean, if you want to, you could just make the _exact same gestures_ in one small part of the screen, and it would be the same as scrolling on a trackpad. This is the point of the touch interface.

More importantly, however, is the fact that anyone who is serious about typing and who does copy work or editing work, will use an external keyboard with their laptop anyway. My brother is a copy writer and he plugs in both an external keyboard and an external mouse (as well as an external monitor) when working at home on his laptop. The touch interface, as I imagine it being implemented by Apple on a larger screened device, would NOT be just implementing a technology for the sake of just implementing a new technology.

The touch interface removes the middle-man in many screen interactions. Instead of having to move a _cursor_ to a desired area with a trackpad, and then maybe do a two-finger scroll to see a different selection of one window's contents, you just put your finger on that window's content and move it up or down, and this scrolls it. If you want to move that window, just put your finger on the top move-bar of the window and move your finger. Want to shrink a window's contents? All you do is pinch it! No need to click on "view" in a menu and change it to 50%. Want to shrink the window itself? Just put your finger in the lower-left corner and move your finger. Now want to start typing? Tap your finger on area that will accept text and a keyboard appears _right there_ just below where you will send the text. No need to move your hands down from the keyboard to the trackpad, move the cursor to the text area, CLICK, then move your hands up to the keyboard to start typing. Instead, your hands stay right there on the screen the whole time. And you have no idea how much faster it will be to manage multiple windows or even multiple desktops, like Spaces. The touch interface isn't just something relegated to smaller screen devices.

The touch interfaces works so well on small screens precisely because it is a much more efficient interface, ergonomically. This doesn't mean it is better for all applications! Not be a long stretch. And I don't want it to replace everything!

But seriously, it is a superior interface, and if it is implemented correctly, and augmented by an external keyboard and external mouse, then it would indeed suffer from no short comings, as a whole package. Just angle your touch-screen device at whatever normal angle you like to have your laptop screen. Now place your external keyboard and mouse right in front of it. Viola! No difference from normal.

Except . . . there is a difference. A big one. If you want to you can reach out and touch the screen and interact with it. Instead of reaching down to a trackpad, or over to a mouse, you could just reach up to a screen. Imagine it. You're typing away on your _external keyboard_ which is right in front of your 45 degree angled touch-screen. Now you want to switch to another window. You hit the Expose button on your keyboard, all the windows appear in miniature, but instead of moving your hands down to the trackpad, moving around until you find where the blasted cursor is, moving the cursor to the window you want, clicking, then moving your hands back to the keyboard. Instead of all that, you just reach up and tap the new window to be made active.

You might not see it yet or imagine it yet, but the touch interface is going to change the computer world, just as the mouse did.

I mean, really, for crying out loud! I can't get my family to STOP touching my monitors! I hate finger prints on my nice matte screen Apple cinema display, or on my nice matte screen 15" macbook pro display, and I get all on edge when lots of new people are crowded around either of these displays, looking at something my wife is showing them. I just know that it will get touched. It's not a huge deal; I can clean them when enough dust and prints warrant it. But, I don't like it, and the matte screen scratch so easily, and are relatively delicate.

Why fight it? People effing WANT to touch screens. Why not take that natural impulse and make a screen that is MADE to be touched, and which cleans oh-so-easily?

And trust me, there are ergonomics to a large touch-screen that none of us has thought of yet. Stuff that once you start using you hate to lose again. It's going to be a game-changer.

And just like the Macbook Air, which has a separate DVD/CD drive connected wirelessly, there's no reason a touch screen netbook (or whatever) couldn't have any and all peripherals added on that people desired. Want a trackpad and keyboard, or a mouse and keyboard? No problem. Just add them on.

Obviously, yes, if you _always_ want those things, then a traditional laptop is the answer. But, I think that Apple will keep the MacBook Pro models just as they are, more or less, and transform the macbooks (or maybe just one of the levels of them, or just add a line) into this larger touch-screen device.

However, just as obviously, I'm only guessing here. Time will tell.


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 8, 2009)

Yeah yeah ... :nana:

But I can be very much more precise with a cursor than I can be with my fingers. Imagine working with the creation of tables in MS Word, pictures, ... whatnot. In addition to that, I can still see what I do when working with a cursor, because there ain't my big finger covering everything.

People touch screens to point out something. Imagine your wife's surprise when every little pointing at the picture does change something ...

A screen that is matte, that can be tilted and that can protect from the view of others and from the negative effects of sunlight is nice. A smeary touchscreen that has to lie down in order to use the computer or that requires a bazillion external devices and a stand to work is just not ergonomic in my world. 
The beauty of a laptop is that it is one piece of equipment when used outside the house. 

I guess you'll win though. They'll make it and the world follows. 

bernie


----------



## js (Jan 8, 2009)

bernie,

Good point about the accuracy of a cursor vs. a big ol' finger tip. But, there are plenty of ways around that, actually. In fact, at some point typing on my iPod Touch, I have accidentally entered a sort of magnifying window/bubble blow up region that followed my finger, and in the center of which was a text entry bar.

So there are a number of solutions that could be implemented there.

And, even so, you'd be surprised how accurate you can be with your finger tip once you get used to it. There is a learning curve, I admit, but when you get on the other side of it, you can be quite accurate--well, more accurate than you might expect initially.

As for "every little pointing changing something" that isn't usually the case. A finger touching a picture or word document wouldn't change anything, actually, unless it moved the window a bit. But, here again, this is a benefit. There is a _consequence_ to touching the screen, and someone who learns on a touch screen learns NOT to touch the damn thing if he or she doesn't want anything to happen.

As for the benefits of a matte screen, you're preaching to the choir. I went out of my way to get a matte screen, in fact. I love matte screens, and I am not really all that thrilled with Apple's move to glossy-only. At least as far as that one thing goes.

As for the part about a touchscreen "having to lie down", that's far from given. I can imagine the iTouch Net (or whatever) having a hinged back section that locks at various angles allowing one to prop it up at different positions, like a picture frame of sorts.

More importantly though, _the device would *not* "require" a bazillion external devices_. That's the beauty of it! You don't _need_ to add an external keyboard or trackpad or mouse or any of it. In terms of a "one piece of equipment" deal, a touch interface netbook would be even more all of a piece than a standard laptop.

You, bernie, yourself would maybe _need_ to do so to make it useful for you, but then again, you won't be buying one! (Assuming they are even made!)

As for me "winning", it ain't me, bernie! It's Apple. Well, it's _my guess_ as to what Apple will do. And the world has a way of following a course that no one predicted. So who knows!


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 8, 2009)

Well ... you know, I am gadget-infected like anyone of us here 
So if my wife won't safe me, I could well end up with one of those.

I don't doubt that one could learn how to use a touchscreen with various aids, but when I think of opening windows to have a keyboard, to activate a magnification bubble etc ... I am not thrilled.

The human-computer interface for most of our current applications is just fine I think, and I don't think the touchscreen has anything positive to add, quite the contrary.

And if you require an external keyboard and mouse to use it properly, you lug around two more items than with a standard laptop, which has all this useful stuff integrated 

Let's just hope it won't happen 
But if it does, you can say "I predicted the future for I am called JStradamus"

bernie


----------



## js (Jan 8, 2009)

bernie,

Have you ever spent time with an iPod Touch or an iPhone? You don't have to "open a window" to activate a keyboard. You just tap in a window where text lives or will live, and it appears. This is equivalent to putting your active cursor in a text window. The magnification bubble automatically activates and follows your finger without anything required on your part, and it works very well, I think, although I still need more experience with it. I've liked it the times I've used it, at any rate.

But, as I've said, you would NOT get one of these if you "required" an external keyboard and mouse to use it properly. It would be for people who felt that much of the time they would _not_ need such things.

The thing is that most people find that a touchscreen _does_ add something positive -- very positive. And I am one of those. Your mileage obviously varies here! And that's OK. Just 'cause a certain device is _available_ doesn't mean it will be the only type available, nor that everyone must get and use one.

I mean, CD's and MP3's / AAC's are ubiquitous and most people listen to their music this way. But . . . that hasn't stopped you from being a vinyl aficionado, has it?

As for "JStradamus", how can you doubt me, bernie? Didn't I predict, over a year ago, our current economic meltdown? I rest my case. hehe. js-tradamus rules! All hail js-tradamus!

LOL!


----------



## Crenshaw (Jan 10, 2009)

Touch screens will be fun......but theres one large faction of people who will never except it....gamers!

Touch screen in FPS will never fly.....maybe in RTS, but not FPS......



i in turn predict that if touch screens become as standard as the mouse....a whole new genre of games will come up, based on this. Look at the Wii and the games you get from it. utterly differnt from button mashing of previous consoles.

in fact, i think the future will be in virtual reality. We are already interacting "directly" in a sense with the contents of our screens. Wii players "interect" directly with objects on the the screen. 

Crenshaw


----------



## LEDninja (Jan 11, 2009)

tiktok 22 said:


> Introducing the new MACBOOK WHEEL!!!!





carrot said:


> Nice thread derailment. :thumbsup:



Not a thread derailment I think.
Let us take js's MacTouchBook and add tiktok's The Wheel to the side. Looks just like an iPod Nano Gen4 in movie mode but 10 times bigger. Allows operation of the computer without your hands being in the way of the line of sight.

Seriously though I think the touchscreen beats the wheel in ease of use. I'm a Hunt and Peck typist so a virtual keyboard won't bother me as much as the wheel. Scroll then click to select a letter is fine, scroll again and click again for upper/lower case is too much work. (Apple could have laid out the screen keyboard display on the wheel ABCDE instead of QWERTY, the highlighted keys jumping around is most annoying!)

I do not follow the arguments about the trackpad. Isn't a touchscreen just a large trackpad?

As to The Wheel didn't James Bond use one as the RC controller for his BMW?


----------



## Tempest UK (Jan 11, 2009)

LEDninja said:


> Seriously though I think the touchscreen beats the wheel in ease of use



One would hope so, seeing as the "Wheel" isn't an Apple product and was a joke about pursuing simplicity at the cost of (any) usability 

Regards,
Tempest


----------



## js (Jan 11, 2009)

While watching TV tonight, I saw an iPhone type device--don't know which one--where when you touched it with your finger, a CURSOR would appear just above and to the side, and that was the activation point. A different approach than the moving magnification bubble, but still, goes to show that there are ways around the hugeness of the fingertip.


----------



## carrot (Jan 11, 2009)

That's the Blackberry Storm. I poked and prodded my friend's and never actually saw a cursor. I will have to play with it a bit more to confirm but I think it was just screencaps "photoshopped" onto the device.


----------



## tiktok 22 (Jan 12, 2009)

I've got to play with a Blackberry Storm and an iPhone and have to say, the iPhone is way more intuitive. The storm would just drag down if it got to busy and just didn't have the feel of the iPhone. This was just a first take on these items. I don't know about call quality or 3G speeds on each device. If I had a choice though, I think I would pick the iPhone.


----------



## effulgentOne (Jan 12, 2009)

this isn't being produced yet, and its not apple, but here is a device in many ways similar to what you guys are talking about


----------



## manoloco (Jan 12, 2009)

Hey Jim, fan of keyboards?, hard to find one of them nowadays, harder even than flashaholics, i love Cherry MX switches, i think it would be hard for touchscreens to replace the feeling and effectiveness of typing with them, on the other hand i ABOSULTELY LOVE tablets, recently i got a wacom tablet, and if you love drawing it is one of the best investments you can make for your pc, i have yet to try a wacom tablet lcd.

there are pressure sensitive lcd tablet laptops (like the HP TX2xxx series) but i dont know if they are as precise and effective as the wacom ones (although the HP ones use wacom technology its just that they use less sensitivity levels), will update this post to place a couple of drawings i did with the tablet, and some i just painted with corel or photoshop that i made with a leadholder and then scanned.

having that kind of versatility with precision in a portable package would REALLY rock for me.

i would like to spend more time with the tablet but my job is preventing it, however, theres always time for fun  :




















some are unfinished, maybe i will try drawing flashlights or scenes with them, could be interesting.


----------



## js (Jan 12, 2009)

manoloco,

WOW! Amazing! I love your work!

But . . . you'd better remove the 2nd one from the top (chica2.jpg) as it isn't suitable for this forum.


----------



## js (Jan 12, 2009)

effulgentOne said:


> this isn't being produced yet, and its not apple, but here is a device in many ways similar to what you guys are talking about



Wow. That is so cool! I was thinking the other day about the possibility of having BOTH halves of the laptop be a touch screen, but figured you'd be better served by having a keyboard on that second surface. But . . . yeah . . . that's along the lines of what I am thinking Apple might do.


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 12, 2009)

Maybe even I could live with this one. It is


----------



## brighterisbetter (Jan 13, 2009)

I don't have much to contribute which hasn't been said already, but good read so far. I'll probably retouch on it later when I have more time to do so.


----------



## ev13wt (Jan 13, 2009)

js said:


> manoloco,
> 
> WOW! Amazing! I love your work!
> 
> But . . . you'd better remove the 2nd one from the top (chica2.jpg) as it isn't suitable for this forum.



You could link it and label it nsfw?  I missed it. 

OP: You are dead on I think. Tablet style without moveable screen and touchscreen. Also 16+ hours battery time, or even up to 21. They bought a company about 3 months ago that was producing the first: "Computer on a chip" called "Lynx". Basically a chip with everything but memory on it. Very efficient design. The pins go straight to the I/O ports (Sata, vga, audio, key/mouse, usb, memory bus, etc). I bet they will plop it into the new machine.


----------



## manoloco (Jan 13, 2009)

sorry about that, will be more careful in the future.


----------



## js (Jan 13, 2009)

SO, we just got a new oscilloscope for the control room here at work. It's a LeCroy WAVEPRO 735Zi, and _it has a touch screen_. More significantly, it runs Windows Vista! When you touch somewhere, the cursor goes there, and if you touch and drag, it's just like a click and drag. Anyway, the point is that the integration of OS and touch interface was obviously not a problem.


----------



## js (Mar 15, 2009)

Well, it looks like I was right!

Apple Plans To Launch Netbook With Touch Screen

Yee Haw!

I do want to re-iterate / clarify my position on this, though. I am a HUGE fan of good, full-size keyboards, as anyone who has read my The best computer keyboards ever made - still thread knows. In fact, I just recently got an IBM Model-M keyboard for my office computer, and wow is it nice (and VERY clicky!).

So, I'm not excited about a full-size laptop that is a touchscreen computer with no real keyboard (i.e. only a virtual touch keyboard on the screen). Axiotron makes such a thing, called a ModBook, and it's made from an Apple macbook or macbook pro. And if you read the reviews, it's clear that the lack of a keyboard is a real issue in many situations, and this disadvantage isn't compensated by a smaller, more convenient package.

A 9" or so screen size, however, is another matter in my opinion.  The "netbook" size, in otherwords, is in my estimation, the perfect size to benefit from a touch screen interface, and the lack of a built in keyboard would be offset by the great convenience of a 9" iPod Touch type Netbook product. Basically the same size as a Kindle or the like, in other words, and something which would have that same functionality built into it (well maybe not the 3G cell wireless), but with color.

My iPod Touch is pretty amazing and surprisingly functional for a lot of things. I was just surfing the web on it for an hour researching the new mac pros when I found this link, actually. Plus, the mail reader can read MS Word attachments and Excel and PDF and etc. It's pretty awesome to be able to take the little iPod touch with me to a meeting and be able to pull up a document from email if needed. Much more convenient than taking my Macbook Pro--which I love dearly, however!

Anyway, just wanted to post a well deserved "I told you so . . ." :nana:


----------



## Saaby (Mar 15, 2009)

I'm jumping into this WAY late, and uninformed. I skimmed through the first post or 2, so I might be repeating some stuff.

I have one of the Unibody MacbBook Pro machines. You're right that the increase in performance wasn't much. The shift to Aluminum for the MacBook was big (Though, regretfully, as you said, at the loss of firewire) and in fact my good friend has the previous design, but he has the high spec (512 Video, 2.6 processor) and I have the low spec (256 video, 2.4 processor). Who has the better machine? Probably him.

Where I think the MacBook Pros will start to shine, with their dual-GPU setup, is when Snow Leopard comes out with grand central. 



> “Grand Central,” a new set of technologies built into Snow Leopard, brings unrivaled support for multicore systems to Mac OS X. More cores, not faster clock speeds, drive performance increases in today’s processors. Grand Central takes full advantage by making all of Mac OS X multicore aware and optimizing it for allocating tasks across multiple cores and processors. Grand Central also makes it much easier for developers to create programs that squeeze every last drop of power from multicore systems.



Source (See "Multicore")

The only thing i don't like about my new ProBook is the glossy screen. It really is quite glossy. If they bring the "anti-glare" option to the 15", as they have for the 17" I may pay the Apple-tax and get it. The only thing is they remove the black bezel, so the laptop kind of looks like a giant MacBook air. While the glossy screen is a tad annoying sometimes, I actually have grown to like the black bezel. It totally conceals the iSight, and it also conceals the black rubber gasket that goes around the perimeter of the screen -- we'll see. 

As for the NetBook thing...it will be interesting to see what they do. When the Air came out last January -- I was using a ~3.5 year old PowerBook G4 15" at the time -- I was watching the Stevenote™ and I was super excited. I thought the Air+24" iMac would be the perfect setup for me. I was expecting the Air to come in at about $999, which would mean Air+24" iMac would be in the neighborhood of a spec'ed out MacBook Pro. 

Unfortunately the Air is $1800, the cost of a MacBook Pro, so that kind of squashed that dream.

I drag my laptop to school every day. I've been schlepping a 15" laptop around for awhile now, and Apple does pack a lot of power into 15", so it's not all that bad, but I would LOVE something a little smaller, for those classes that I use the laptop in. 

What I need is something that can work in tablet form with touch and/or stylus input. I'm not using this as a replacement for typing notes, because I don't believe in typing notes -- handwritten is much better. I am talking about classes, of which I have several, where the teacher has you buy a packet of notes at the beginning of the semester, and then they teach out of those notes for the semester. I hate carrying around extra weight, so rather than carry 500 pages of notes all semester I take the packet, which is usually spiral-bound, un-bind it, and shove it through a high-speed scanner.

Then, armed with a PDF of the packet I either:


A - Re-print the notes I need for any given day

or

B - Hilight and annotate the notes digitally. 


What I am clamoring for is something that would let me do "B" more like I do "A". An eBook reader like the Kindle with stylus input would be great, and in-fact one exists, but it's like $500. $500 can buy A LOT of paper and toner (I have a personal, duplexing laser)...so I skipped that route.

Then I kind of got hit with the NetBook bug and thought maybe one of those would be suitable. Especially one of the ones with a touch screen. A little cheaper, and much more functional than a simple eBook reader.

Then I tried one out at Best Buy. Oh dear, I am just not a fan. They feel cheap to me.


So Apple...it will be interesting to see what they come out with. I'm betting that functionally they'll create exactly what I am looking for. Small, reasonably powerful, touch and maybe stylus input, OS X...perfect. 

BUT, and here's what this is all coming around to...
Price though. That will be the interesting part. If it's $250 I'd buy it the day it came out. $350 and I'm going to have to think about it. $450 it had better be pretty good, and anything above that I just don't think I could justify.

So we'll see...


----------



## js (Mar 15, 2009)

Ryan,

You won't be able to justify it, then, because there is no way this thing is going to cost under $450. I am guessing it will come in closer to $750.

As for the Snow Leopard thing, I knew about that, and am very excited, but both the new MBP's and the old Penryn MBP's have pretty much the same chip set except for the dual GPU thing. But as I recall, you can't operate both graphics cards at once. It's one or the other, and you pay a not insignificant penalty in battery life by running the more capable one with its own video memory.

The new MBP's are sweet, there's no question, and I prefer the new trackpad feel to the one I have--by a small margin--but overall I'm super glad I have a MacBook Pro "Classic" (i.e. pre 14 Oct 08) for reasons which I think I've mentioned already in this thread. The biggest one for me is probably the matte screen, and after that would come aesthetics and ergonomics: I like the look of mine better and I like the layout of the ports and optical drive better, and I like the keyboard on mine better. I also like having two FW ports, one 400 and one 800. And I also like the the edge of my computer is smoother and less sharp on the wrists than the new ones. It really is an issue for me when typing for any length of time! Both the old plastic MB's and the new aluminum unibody's suffer from the sharp edge feature--or rather non-feature. LOL! Still, that unibody is way cool, and it does slightly bother me that when I close the lid on my MBP that one side has a larger gap than the other, but all in all I'm glad I bought mine when I did.

Anyway, yes, we shall see.

Right now I'm watching the unfolding of the whole new nehalem Mac Pro's vs. the Jan 08 Mac Pro's. Seems the thing most people are upset about (other than performance to price ratio) is the RAM issue. The quads probably can't (although it's not certain yet) take more than 8 GB of RAM, and for many pro users that is a deal breaker. Also, it seems that you may lose 1/3 of your memory transfer speed by filling up more than 3 slots per CPU socket (i.e. 3 on quad, and 6 on octo), and that totally negates the faster memory architecture on the nehalems. Strange. So if that's the case, it's even more bad news. The price on the old ones is actually starting to go up now. Amazon raised their price back up $100, in fact. Eh. I dunno. For our uses I think the quad MP (which is faster in single thread performance than even the old 3.2 GHz MP 08) with 6GB or 8GB of memory will hold us for four or five years, and it's cheaper than fitting out an 08 MP with that amount of memory. Or at least it is in my case, since I get the educational discount. Anyway, off topic. Sorry.


----------



## Saaby (Mar 15, 2009)

js said:


> Ryan,
> 
> You won't be able to justify it, then, because there is no way this thing is going to cost under $450. I am guessing it will come in closer to $750.


Shhhh! They'll hear you. You're right, I'm sure it will be pricey pricey pricey, which will make it tough to justify for what I want it for (A *second* portable). Maybe after a year or so I can get a used one. We'll see. Until them I'm going to hope they'll pull a "$199 iPhone 3G" on us. $199 is still a premium to pay for a phone when there are so many other phones available for free, but it's not crazy out of reach. Of course if they _do_ make it available at a reasonable price point, it will probably be available at that price only if you add 3G tethering to your iPhone plan for another $30 a month :ironic:



js said:


> But as I recall, you can't operate both graphics cards at once. It's one or the other...



We'll see. There was a lot of back and forth on the subject when the Unibody 'books first came out, and I don't think anybody came to a definitive, final conclusion. Certainly it's not supported right now, but the same GPU setup is used in other (PC) laptops, and on those machines it is most certainly possible to run both at the same time. 

You'll also recall that right now, to switch GPU, you have to log out and back in. Very clunky, and very un-Apple. If you ask me, I think Steve Jobs walked into Software over there at 1 Infinite loop about a week before the Unibody 'books came out and said "Here's what we've come up with. Now write drivers!" Ok not really, but I am quite confident that some time in the future we'll at least be able to switch between GPUs on the fly. 

As for using both GPU at the same time? I'm confident that it will be a feature on future MacBook Pros. Will it come to my generation? Anybodies guess. Apple has a history of enhancing value of products later through software updates. Sometimes for free, sometimes for a small charge (802.11n enabler anybody?). Then again, Apple also has a history of introducing artificial differences between models, so I also wouldn't put it past them to make simultaneous GPU operation only available on a newer model. Fortunately, when the restriction is artificial, the developer community generally has a way of negating artificial restrictions 



js said:


> ...and you pay a not insignificant penalty in battery life by running the more capable one with its own video memory.



That's true. Just imagine how much juice you'd use to run both at the same time. That's why I imagine a situation where the more powerful GPU switches on and off as needed, sort of how the CPU turns down it's voltage and frequency when not needed. Plug in the power-cord and have the big-GPU switch on permanently. Unplug the power-cord and have the big-GPU switch on only as needed, even for non-graphical tasks, but tasks of the sort that are better carried out by the GPU over the CPU. If that's the case, you could even see an increase in battery life -- by using the GPU for tasks it's better suited at, whilst leaving the CPU in partial-sleep mode.


----------



## LEDninja (Apr 21, 2009)

I came across a couple of articles on the Forbes website.

1) Those micro-PCs cost between $250-$499.
2) Wired.com booted one of them with OSX. Apple asked wired.com to remove the article and wired.com complied.

Apple's sales & marketing department must be tearing their hair out.
If Apple comes out with a sub $500 MacNetBook it will steal market share from the more profitable full size MacBooks.
If Apple does not come out with a sub $500 MacNetBook people would just buy Acer, Dell, XO etc instead of more profitable full size MacBooks. Wired.com's removal of how to boot a netbook with OSX would only slow not stop MacAddicts from installing OSX.

Reference:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...15/forbes_netbook_090419/20090419?hub=SciTech


js said:


> 5. For a while now, people have been wondering why Apple doesn't enter the so-called micro-PC market, with a super small laptop suitable for surfing the web and emailing and so on.
> 
> 6. The new version of OS X--Snow Leopard--will not have any new bells and whistles--nothing like time machine or spot light or dashboard, but rather will be a meaner, leaner, slimmer, more efficient version of Leopard. The name even announces this fact!


----------



## js (Apr 21, 2009)

Very interesting, LEDninja. I didn't know that about the wired.com thing. Interesting. But I'm not sure that Apple is so worried about a MacNetBook stealing sales from the full size macbooks. You may be right, but it doesn't seem to me like a concern for Apple.


----------



## binky (Apr 22, 2009)

LEDninja said:


> If Apple does not come out with a sub $500 MacNetBook people would just buy Acer, Dell, XO etc instead of more profitable full size MacBooks.



Okay, wait. It has always been the view of those in the press to view an existing market that Apple's currently not in, and wonder when Apple will enter the market. They keep making the mistake that the black-brick object of the market, whether it's a PIM, phone, laptop, or cheap computing device, whatever, that when Apple enters the market they're going to have a tough time replicating existing box 'X' by putting their own skin on it and selling it with the obligatory Apple Markup.

But that has never been what Apple has done in the past. It has happened so very many times over & over that it's shocking that the NYT, WSJ, and other media keep bringing up the issue in those terms.

It's in Apple's business interest to sell hardware. To do so, they have consistently shown that their preference is to design something different enough with something "special" that customers feel compelled to buy it. That has never been just a cool-looking skin. 

There is absolutely no evidence by inductive reasoning that we should expect Apple to have any interest in simply delivering a NetBook brick like all the rest that simply runs OS X. Apple's sales & marketing wouldn't be tearing their hair out. The existing market for NetBook offers Apple zero competitive advantage if they were to simply load their OS into some cheapo NetBrick, paint an aluminum skin around it and slap an Apple logo onto it. 

It has never been that Apple simply offers their version of the same thing, but it just happens to run OS X. They're in the game to sell hardware. If their OS were good enough alone to sell the hardware then dumping the OS onto any whitebox junkbox would make it a compelling Apple product, but imagine doing that. It's not enough, is it? I mean, it's a fine OS but so is Vista Ultimate (with OneCare psst). So is Linux for that matter. Why go Apple, then? There needs to be more to the recipe and that's where the integrated design of the OS & hardware reviewers keep missing the mark. 

It's not just that Apple gets to design the hardware and OS together & keep it from crashing that compell people to buy the product. That's not it at all either. As much as they like to teae MS about it, Apple's OS X has its share of grey-screen "kernel panics" and it DOES freeze, with their own stupid products such as Safari being the worst offenders causing the freezing. 

To get people to buy their products they've been offering:
1. integrated mechanical & asthetic design
2. hardware that offers some some new or emerging feature.
3. a user interface that, as closely as possible, allows the user to intuit their way to accomplishing their task.

The OS not the key. The aluminum skin is not the key. Controlling the OS and hardware together is not the thing either. Identifying an emerging market is not Apple's game either.

Finding an existing market where they can improve the user interface enough and adding some cool new features to make it a really compelling sale -- That's their target and they've said so. Steve Jobs has said so. Tim Cook has said so. But the papers & media, well, they keep missing the point.

Soo... Apple OS on a $500 NetBook. No. At least not on what we now consider "a NetBook". No profit or Advantage to Apple in that. So I doubt they're tearing their hair out.


----------



## js (Apr 22, 2009)

binky,

Great post!

I certainly agree that when (or IF) Apple enters the "net book" market, they are going to try to redefine it and try to create a product that is innovate enough that people are willing to pay a premium for it.

And I certainly agree that so many people and organizations keeping putting things in terms that ignore the central game plan of Apple, Inc.

But, I personally think that OS X is indeed something special, and I would point out that there are a lot of "Hackintosh's" out there, and there is a significant minority to which this appeals.

I'm not one of them, but I do "get" it.

Further, in my experience, the combination of controlling the hardware and the OS (together with a just-plain-superior OS) has indeed lead to a virtually crash free setup. The ONLY time one of my Macs has ever crashed was when I installed a third party SATA PCI card in it. This is in sharp contrast to my experiences with Windows machines.

Anyway, whatever, back on topic: I pesonally think that if Apple does enter this market that they will indeed come up with an amazing, intuitive, easy to use, efficient, brilliant touch interface for it. I think that it will run OS X. And I think it will command a premium price. And I think that it will not fear competition from hackintosh netbooks, nor will Apple fear taking sales away from the Macbooks.

We shall see.


----------



## binky (Apr 22, 2009)

Thanks, js. I re-read my post and geez I sounded grumpy. Sorry 'bout that.

I happen to agree that OS X is something special, so I'm completely "drinkin' the Kool-Aid," and there's so much about it that would get ME to buy a whitebox with OS X over another OS, but I guess I was proposing that I don't know if it would be enough to help Apple sell enough hardware and win people over. On top of that, these differences are all over the place in the OS, there are zillions of small things that only seem to be itemizable but nobody can seem to summarize. I haven't yet seen any really good summary of that difference, at least. Like, in one or two sentences "what's compelling about a Mac over anything else." Maybe it's out there. I don't want to sidetrack this thread with that, though, and trying to get at that has started many a flaming thread so I'm now going to run away fast from that. Plus, I'm drunk on the Kool-Aid so my opinion is only that -- my opinion.

I agree that it is a special advantage that Apple controls development of both the OS and the hardware together. But to me if Microsoft were to own Dell I haven't seen in the past any evidence that they'd work to wield that toward anything really compelling. Just a lower-cost box with steadily, rather predictably increasing feature set. I think if Apple were run by MBA dweebs or even just by engineers, they'd be driven toward entering only existing marketspaces, copying an existing product and trying to advance their dominance by lowering production costs and just adding features. But that would not move _Apple-specific_ hardware. I think that's why Microsoft has failed in the past and I hope they stop doing that, especially because there are so many talented people working there. This habit was especially evident with the Zune because we could all see it from hopeful inception to flaming failure. Microsoft controlled both the OS and the hardware in that case. This isn't to say that their recipe for dominating a market doesn't work. With 95% of the market share or whatever it is these days it obviously does work. It just doesn't produce something that'll move hardware for one company and one company only. 

Nobody cared that Microsoft offered a "me-too" product, even though its failure didn't seem to have anything to do with lack of crashes or incompatibility with the laptop/desktop machine. It just had absolutely nothing compelling about it so nobody was willing to shell out for a virtual clone of another company's product no matter how stable it was. It had to offer something compelling.

I think Apple continually hangs their business model on offering some creative new way to let the user get done what they're wanting to do in an even easier way than the existing market offers. The MP3 player market was alive & booming when the iPod came along, but it was a PITA to do the MP3 conversion and the darned software loaders were junk. You're absolutely right that it took Apple's hardware & software control to allow them to come up with the iTunes/iPod feature set. 

Ditto the iPhone. Ditto the laptop. But they keep adding new & creative ways to allow the user to get their stuff done. I think Apple cannot move hardware without that. That's what I think is the special part. That's all I was trying to propose. 

So to get way back to your original posts -- I think you & I are in complete agreement. What I hear you saying is that Apple, if they're going to make a new product, will start by trying to solve some of the annoyances & wishes of that market. They'll move when they can do something that'll advance the existing market and lock in enough unique features to make it a really compelling sell that moves their own hardware. Nearly by virtue of that business requirement it cannot be playing in the price range of the existing marketspace but instead just enough above it that they can offer the exciting feature set that lets users get done the objective of that marketspace only by using the Apple hardware.

Phew! Sorry to be so wordy. I don't expect anyone to read all that blather. I just had to get it into electrons, though.

PS: Forgot to mention -- I proudly wear my "Power Computing -- Moment historique!" T-shirt when I trim my hedge. It was an exciting time, but it might have been a bad business move to offer the OS on other platforms. Though, at the time Apple wasn't totally playing fair either, so there was a lot more to it. We (meaning you included, I presume) remember the former Steve Jobs reign and he wasn't always viewed in such golden light as now as he proceeded in the '80's & early '90's to render ruinous some very helpful 3rd party software & hardware vendors.


----------



## js (Apr 23, 2009)

binky,

Another really great post! Thanks!

I definitely think I understood your driving point with your first post, but this post expands upon, clarifies, and drives home the point even more. I totally agree with you. And I really appreciate you pointing out that despite past history and its examples of Apples modus operandi, pundits and critics all seem to be "in the box" in their mindsets and it makes what they say fairly beside the point.

I'm way drunk on the OS X coolaid, so I should probably not try to sum anything up either. One thing I will say is that it's been a 64 bit OS for a long time now so you don't have the 4GB RAM addressing limit of XP (which is really 3 'cause 1 other GB is used by the OS for other stuff, IIRC). To me, that's a serious downside of XP, although I hear there is a 64 bit version of XP?

Anyway, whatever, I agree it's a bad idea to start discussing the merits of operating systems. Guaranteed flame war. In fact, I shouldn't have said that OS X was a "just plain superior OS". I should have just said that it's a great OS, without trying to say whether it was worse or better than any other OS out there. In other words, "I like it". And that's all I want to go with here in this thread.

Anyway, moving on, I am really excited to see if Apple does release a touch interface 9 inch size netbook type deal. The iPod touch has impressed me in so many ways that I have high expectations for future products from Apple. I'm sure I'll be let down in one way or another, in fact! But that's OK. I get over that quickly.

OK. Cutting myself off . . .


----------



## LEDninja (May 18, 2009)

I came across an article at Forbes.
Thirteen Apple Innovations: Past, Present And Future
http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/29/st...x_bc_0530stevejobs_slide.html?thisSpeed=15000

The tablet under discussion in this thread actually has an official nickname: 
Safari Tablet


----------



## js (May 18, 2009)

Thanks for the link LEDninja!

I was thinking of this thread the other day because an objection raised to the touch interface was the inaccuracy of a fingertip--it's huge, how do you get a text insertion point correct? I had imagined that they would use a magnifying bubble that would appear just above your finger tip.

Well, would you believe it, they are ALREADY DOING that on the iPod Touch / iPhone. I was replying to an email the other day and left my finger pushing in the text window just a bit too long, and lo and behold, what did appear but a magnifying bubble with a blow up and text insertion point. I then moved my finger around and the text insertion point moved with it, very precisely.

heh. Who knew? Cool, eh.


----------



## LuxLuthor (May 18, 2009)

I with I would have "grown up" with or switched over to Apple/Mac, but I'm so locked into my ongoingly duct-taped Winblows and PC platform in terms of software that I know I'm going to keep putting up with it. I so relate to those wonderful Mac vs. PC commercials, and am always laughing at how they nailed PC, and "down with M$ Winblows!!!" Then I sit there stewing for a few seconds when I remember that I'm the PC dork.


----------



## js (May 18, 2009)

Some of those Mac vs. PC commercials are brilliant and highly enjoyable. Laugh out loud funny! My wife and I are always excited when a new batch of them come out. No question.

But . . .

They aren't exactly true. My brother switched over to Mac from PC and it wasn't the experience he was hoping for, to say the least. PC's aren't the difficult to use and virus and spy-ware laden units that the mac commercials make them out to be. I've managed to keep Windows machines running stablely and smoothly for months and months. And switching from one platform to another (as you point out) is always painful, no matter which direction you go.

And I sure do envy PC people's choice when it comes to graphics cards and game software! Not that I'm into games, but I don't have much choice of software and video cards for my macs in any case.

And, in terms of bang for the buck you can make a good argument that PC's rule. You do tend to pay a premium for Apple products.

And, finally, once Windows 7 comes out, things will be looking better for the PC side of the house, I suspect.

All computers have their issues. None of them is "simple to use" I don't think, no matter what the mac commercials imply. I swear that my in-laws can render even a mac barely functional within a day or two. I have no idea how they manage to get things into the states that they sometimes do. But that's another story!


----------



## binky (May 18, 2009)

js said:


> None of them is "simple to use" I don't think, no matter what the mac commercials imply.



Remember when things were to intuitive that even if you wanted to clone your bootable Mac, all you had to do is select everything you wanted then drag it to an external drive and you've got a working copy of your bootable Mac? Those were the days... Now everything worthwhile is hidden and in dot-files. What a pain. I don't see that level of simplicity returning any time soon. Of course, somewhere along the line back then we also got bogged down with Extension conflicts, system freezes and that annoying little bomb with the fuse sparking from its top. Maybe the past stuff wasn't so great after all.


----------



## Benson (May 20, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> I with I would have "grown up" with or switched over to Apple/Mac, but I'm so locked into my ongoingly duct-taped Winblows and PC platform in terms of software that I know I'm going to keep putting up with it. I so relate to those wonderful Mac vs. PC commercials, and am always laughing at how they nailed PC, and "down with M$ Winblows!!!" Then I sit there stewing for a few seconds when I remember that I'm the PC dork.



_(Full disclosure: I'm not exactly a big Apple fan; in fact, Apple is not too far above MS in my book. I'm also somewhat of a geek; I like to think I can see (and compensate for) the difference between "easy for me to use" and "easy to use", but if I err, you can guess which way. )_

I see some of the commercials as cheap jabs, but some of them do make pretty fair points about problems with Windows. Of course, Apple offers one answer to those problems, and I don't say it's a bad one (especially since OS X), but if you're locked into your existing machines, you could try running another OS alongside, so you can boot into Windows when you need a Windows app, and run something less irritating the rest of the time.

Assuming you're not up for carefully selecting OS-compatible hardware and violating the EULA to run it on a non-Apple system, you might check out Linux. A number of rather end-user friendly distributions are available these days, and even the more traditional ones really aren't hard to use.


----------



## js (May 20, 2009)

Indeed. I keep hearing great things about Fedora. We use scientific linux here at the lab, when we use linux.


----------



## THE_dAY (May 22, 2009)

Ok, this is my take on what Apple will do regarding the iPhone this summer:

1) they will keep the current 8GB model, same specs, price will be lowered to $99 to attract mass market.

2) they will introduce an updated new model with very similar look and slightly updated hardware in 16GB and 32GB. 

3) the new 16GB and 32GB will have improved camera hardware/software as well as video recording capabilities.
Will also include newer faster processor, double the current RAM, and a magnetometer. 
Screens will stay at 320x480 resolution.
Battery life will be 1.5 times the current model's.


----------



## js (May 22, 2009)

THE dAY,

Thanks for your observations! And we can definitely talk about the iPhone. No problem.

But . . .

You did see that this thread is about the 9" netbook with touch screen that Apple is rumored to be working on? Something which it looks like I figured out _before_ any rumors started circulating.

Still, the thread title does lend itself to your post, so, no problem! Just wanted to mention the topic if you had any thoughts on that.


----------



## THE_dAY (May 22, 2009)

I personally think the Netbook is definitely coming, whether it's this year or the next I don't know? 
A big plus would be porting the AppStore to it giving it a great start.
Yes the apps would take up a small part of the screen but this is where you can have multiple apps running on the screen at once.

There was some leaked info on Snow Leopard stating that it might have a 3g wireless built right in. link

This would be great as one would be able to have connection anywhere.
Hopefully the data plans would be affordable enough as to entice the average consumer.

The funny thing is, now with Skype and all the others, this netbook could be considered a giant iPhone.


----------



## Dan FO (May 22, 2009)

I have the MacBook Pro and a 1 week old aluminum MacBook and like them booth better than anything I have ever used. Having said that we will be seeing a Mac Netbook, the market is screaming for it and I can feel it in my bones.


----------



## A/V Dude (Jun 15, 2009)

Have you seen the Mac Book wheel?http://www.theonion.com/content/video/apple_introduces_revolutionary :laughing::wave:


----------



## da.gee (Jun 15, 2009)

That's hilarious. I love the pricing on the two models. So Apple.

Everything is just a few hundred clicks away!


----------



## mechBgon (Jun 15, 2009)

A/V Dude said:


> Have you seen the Mac Book wheel?http://www.theonion.com/content/video/apple_introduces_revolutionary :laughing::wave:


 
I was playing that video at work, and the resident Mac user happened to be walking by. I managed to keep a straight face for a while, as he wavered in uncertainty as to whether it was a spoof or not :devil: Funny video!


----------



## js (Jun 15, 2009)

Did you guys perhaps happen to notice that this thread has been derailed not once, but twice now with this Mac Book Wheel Onion article? Yes, it's funny. But we've already been there, done that.


----------



## A/V Dude (Jun 15, 2009)

js said:


> Did you guys perhaps happen to notice that this thread has been derailed not once, but twice now with this Mac Book Wheel Onion article? Yes, it's funny. But we've already been there, done that.



_Oh_ _Sorry_. I musta missed the other one, due to having a life.:wave:


----------



## ElectronGuru (Jun 17, 2009)

At the risk of sounding like an analyst...


Netbook's achieve their dramatic price points by using commodity parts, reducing features (including software), and limiting specifications. Minimal RAM, minimal processor speed, and little (or no HD) are common. This all flys in the face of Apple design. Apple is quite happy with current price points (and margins) on current laptop machines. Were a new "tablet-pc" to offer the full Mac OS for $700, people would buy it _instead of_ a MBP. This flys in the face of Apple marketing.

The new device will appear before Christmas, probably around back to school. It will run the Touch OS, and offer 1) bigger screen, 2) more processor, & 3) more storage than the current Touch. It will not run the full Mac OS and will not be meant or marketed as a full computer. If Apple wants it to be used as a text entry platform, they will include support for bluetooth keyboards. Any game changing by this device will not be hardware, but software. For example, the screen size, combined with an iTunes Store that sells books, will make one hell of an e-book platform.


Bonus info: Apple changes designs for three main reasons: New sells, weak builds cost $, and Steve says so. A key one for Unibody design is the second. Apple monitors their warranty program very closely. The physically stronger a design, the less it breaks, and the less they spend honoring fixit requests. Unibody designs are incredibly rigid, minimizing warping and breakage. I expect 80% of shipped unibody MBs to last 5 years without major physical problems (components inside will still die).

And while the latest designs have only one FW port, FW800 ports directly support FW400 devices with the right cable


----------



## js (Aug 26, 2009)

So, if you look on MacRumors Forum new page you can see lots of suspicions and rumors of the new mac tablet(s), and one of the rumors is that there will be two sizes and the larger size will indeed run OS X. But of course, it's all just speculation. Still, it looks like a very good bet that Apple will indeed release a touch based "netbook" in the near future. Hehe. Cool.

So, now that that prediction is on much more solid ground, I'd like to offer another one that is TOTALLY WILD AND OUT TO LUNCH. My rational brain keeps telling me this, keeps coming up with reasons why I should forget it, but somehow another part of my brain won't let it go.

I think that all of the current unibody MBP laptops _already have touch screens_ and that a firmware update / OS update will "unveil" this dormant feature.

Crazy, isn't it? Still, I note it here for the record. If it crashes and burns and is nonsense, well OK! But, if I'm right . . . how cool would that be?

And it's not totally without precedence. Apple is just crazy enough to pull something like this. Just as a small example, the fact that my 2nd Gen iPod touch has bluetooth was totally hidden until the iPhone OS 3.0 was released. Not the same thing, I know, because bluetooth and wi-fi are both wireless protocols and if a device has one . . . well, you get the picture.

Still . . . I can't shake the feeling that the newest generation of MBP's with the built in batteries have a touch screen already.

I'm sure it's impossible. Yet, even so . . .

LOL!


----------



## LEDninja (Aug 27, 2009)

Saw a couple of interesting things on the news lately.

An HP guy was demonstrating how the latest Windoze OS supports their touchscreen. Looks awful similar to how an ipod touch screen works. But the HP also have a keyboard.

Palm is releasing their newest PDA with a slide out keyboard in addition to a touchscreen.

LG is advertising the slide-in slide out keyboard on their cell phone very aggressively.

-----

Apple seem to think people do not type or enter numbers. Have you seen the latest full size Apple keyboards?
Small keyboards make sense back when monitors were 9" or 12". They do not save space when the 21" monitors are now common.
The now missing number pad is necessary for doing any financial or tax calculations or to use Excel. Oh I forgot. Excel is made by the opposition so is Apple trying to kill Excel by dropping the keypad. That will backfire big time as number crunchers will simply stop using Macs and go back to Windoze.
I can't even log onto CPF as I remember my password as a number of tic-tac-toe moves on the keypad, do not know the actual number.


----------



## js (Aug 27, 2009)

LEDninja said:


> Saw a couple of interesting things on the news lately.
> 
> An HP guy was demonstrating how the latest Windoze OS supports their touchscreen. Looks awful similar to how an ipod touch screen works. But the HP also have a keyboard.
> 
> ...



Err, Apple still makes full-sized keyboards LEDninja! I know because I just saw them at the campus store and because the Apple store still sells them

Also, I just selected a mac mini to configure and scrolled down to the keyboard section, and here are my choices:

None
Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad & Mighty Mouse
Apple Wireless Keyboard & Wireless Mighty Mouse
Apple Keyboard & Mighty Mouse

So, Apple in no way thinks that people don't type! And, as you might remember from the The best computer keyboards ever made - still thread, I place high importance on keyboards, and had no problem saying that the apple keyboard that came with the G3 desktop in the control room where I work was the _worst keyboard I have ever used_. I'm a fan of Apple, but I'm not an Apple fan-boy who automatically loves everything they make!

The new keyboards that Apple is making are actually _quite good_. They are laptop-style in their design, with very little surround on the outside, and a very low throw on the action, but despite this, the keyboard is full sized and there IS a tactile feedback to the action, and once you get used to it, you can type quickly and accurately on it. The reviews on Amazon for any of this generation of Apple keyboards will tell the same story. People quite like them.

As for touch screens and keyboards, well, again, it's not that Apple thinks that people don't type, it's that Apple is weighing different design considerations and pros and cons off against each other. A virtual touch keyboard is in no way ever going to be more useable than a real keyboard, or even a small keypad type keyboard. I agree. So, if that's important to you, you would avoid the iPhone and iPod Touch and the new "netbooks" like the plague.

But to say that Apple thinks that people don't type is just not tenable. Apple made what is arguably one of the best keyboards ever made, and their current line of keyboards is a definite cut above the norm for keyboards. We recently got a Lenovo D20 workstation at work, and it came with a keyboard. And that keyboard is nowhere near as good as the Apple keyboards that ship with the new Apple computers.

And if you like that alpha numeric keypad, you can still get that. Don't know where you came up with the idea that Apple had discontinued it.


----------



## LEDninja (Aug 27, 2009)

The problem is if you do not specify Apple Keyboard *with Numeric Keypad* you do not get the keypad. My local dealer got caught flat footed. I was in the Apple store downtown Toronto last week and there was no keypad in over a dozen demo units. A lot of students/first time buyers would not realize they have to order the keypad as an option. Even me if I had not been tipped off by my dealer.

Laptop manufacturers have successfully integrated keypads into their smaller keyboard layout since the days of 10.4" VGA screens. I do not see why Apple can not shrink the keyboard without losing the keypad.


----------



## js (Aug 28, 2009)

Antime there is a change in the lineup of things, there will be hicups. That's just the way it is. But the problem is already probably resolved at this point in most if not all places. Or will be soon. And, when you order online, you MUST specify.

Anyway, still, yes, that must have been annoying if you were wanting to buy an Apple iMac or mini.

As for laptops, very very few people would want numberic keypads from what I can see. As for smaller keyobards, why bother? As you say, it's not a problem to have a longer keyboard these days, so if you want the keypad, buy the longer keyboard.


----------



## js (Oct 7, 2009)

So, I was just reading a gizmodo article talking about the Apple Tablet. The speculation is that one of the aims of the tablet is digital print media, like books, newspapers, and magazines, and this makes perfect sense to me. I mean, the Kindle is very cool, and I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to have thousands of books on a device the size of just one book (my house is freaking over flowing with books at this point!), but the lack of color, and the single-functionality of the device, together with it's non-trivial price, have kept me from buying a kindle. Now, a color touch-screen tablet about 10" diagonally is another story! That would be _perfect_ as an ebook type reader. And, it wouldn't be just that. It would be a netbook as well, with a web browser, email, games, and so on.

Now, for me, this puts the whole keyboard thing into perspective. Yes, a virtual keyboard is nowhere near as good as a real keyboard. No question. And I would NOT want to compose a term paper on something like the rumored Apple Tablet. No way, no how. But, (1) the tablet isn't aimed at that usage pattern, and (2) if you wanted to, you could interface with a bluetooth keyboard (you can already do this with the iPod Touch 2nd gen or 3rd gen, by the way), and (3) the lack of a real keyboard makes for a sleek, portable device that would be perfect as an e-reader. Add in optional 3G cellular connectivity, like the Kindle, so that you could browse and buy/download books and magazines and newspapers anywhere, anytime, and you have a potent and powerfully attractive device. Or at least that is my feeling.

At the start of this thread, back when I first posted it, I didn't actually see myself buying one of these things. I mean, what need would it fill that wasn't already filled by my Macbook Pro laptop or my Mac Pro desktop or my iPod Touch? It wouldn't be nearly as portable as an iPod, and it wouldn't have nearly the capabilities of a MBP, and with no real keyboard, would lose a lot of functionality. So, why would I buy one.

Now, however, I know EXACTLY why I would buy one. eBooks and eZines. Just like I have all of my music--thousands of CD's--on my laptop now, I could eventually have all of my books and magazines and even newspapers, on one small device, with me at all times, complete with all my electronic notes in the margins, with an auto-lookup of any words I don't know, and with the capability of zooming in on any picture or small font text. Now that would be so, so worth it. Not to mention textbooks, if or when I ever become a student again!

If this materializes this way, I *WILL* buy one. No question. I will wait until I see that there is indeed a great resource of books available to me--for example, I'm sure that Amazon will sell kindle type ebooks for this device, as that is where they make their money, and not on the Kindle itself, where they take a loss. So it may happen quickly. But I'll want to see it all there, ready and waiting, before I buy. And when and if that happens, I will buy, even if the price of entry is $700.

This is what Apple has planned for the Tablet, almost certainly. And how cool will that be?


----------



## ElectronGuru (Oct 7, 2009)

Couple of thoughts:

Expect iTunes to have a print book section. There have been reports of truck loads of books rolling up to the docks in Cupertino. Automated scanners can make short work of a stack of a million of "out of copyright" publications. 

The key limitation on the tablet won't be the keyboard, it will be battery life. The kindle is basically an electronic etch'a'sketch. Power is only needed to change the page. A full backlit LCD draws quite a bit more juice. Hopefully, most of the case (and weight) will be devoted to power.

Ideally, this thing will have bluetooth AND the ability to sync with a BT keyboard. If not, perhaps 3rd party's will step in.

Never mind books and email. I want this for CPF!! :rock:


----------



## js (Nov 24, 2009)

CNN Money has an article with speculations from some that the new Apple Tablet will be "the gadget to end all gadgets.":



> If the rumors are true, the tablet will be able to do basically everything a gadget could possibly do. It's an e-reader, a gaming device, and a music player. You can watch TV and movies on it and surf the Internet (or so we've heard). And it will have thousands of third-party apps available for it ... or maybe it will run Mac OS X. That's all still unknown.
> 
> Coolest device ... ever? Maybe. Some analysts are channeling their inner-Frodo, saying the Apple tablet will be the one gadget to rule them all.
> 
> "This will be the next big thing," said Laura DiDio, principal analyst at ITIC. "Apple is going to wow everybody with the tablet."



I'm very interested to see what this Tablet actually will turn out to be, in all the fine details, which after all, are what makes or breaks most things like this. It's also looking like a near certainty that there IS an Apple Tablet of some sort or another. Tee hee!


----------



## Justintoxicated (Nov 24, 2009)

If I was going to buy a mac it would be a notebook, but I'm partial to Lenovo myself, I hate shiny computers and glossy notebook screens. I also don't care for their keyboards. give me something with a great modular design, Matt Finish on the outside and a functional keyboard and I am happy. I have not sceen the new Lenovo screens but thats the one reason I would look into a mac over a Lenovo in the past. However it would not make sense to have a Mac Amongst all my PCs. No WHS Backups, harder to transfer stuff back and fourth etc. I do prefer mat screens on the lenovos over glossy on the mac, but the quality of the screen itself on the mac used to b e noticeably better. Lenovo has those new LED screens so I'm not sure if they are still way ahead there. 

I fail to understand why a mac tablet is so revolutionary, while other manufacturers have been making them for years?

The gadget above looks neat but it's anything but a new concept. I hop it does well, as others will be sure to follow. Let me guess, the downside is the battery is not removable lol.


----------



## js (Nov 25, 2009)

The Macbook Pro's have had LED back lit S-IPS LCD screens for years now. I bought a MBP _before_ the unibody macs came out, and I'm very glad I did because I prefer a matte screen and I like the keyboard on mine a lot better than the chichlet keyboard on the new ones.

However, other than the glossy aspect (and now you can special order a matte one), the screens on the MB and MBP's are equal or superior to the Lenovo's. I have a new Lenovo (two of them actually) at work for surveying, and a lot of people at work have the new MBP's, and it is far from obvious to me that the Lenovo's have better screens!

As for the Tablet, it's obviously not a new concept. No one has been saying it is. When the iPod came out, it wasn't a new concept. There had been MP3 players before that, as I recall. But they were lame.

The devil is in the details, and that's what Apple has a habit of getting right, and people are excited about the Tablet because it promises to combine a lot of stuff all into one device, and _if_ it's done right--if the UI is good and the OS is good and the software is good and it has all sorts of cool capabilities, like built in cellular 3G, WiFi, accelerometer, touchscreen, etc. etc.--then it will be something special.

A touch screen of the size that is being speculated would be very functional and effective, and the UI that Apple has made for the iPod touch and iPhone is very impressive.

I for one am excited. Not because it is a new concept, but because it might be a very well designed and useful gadget. As I said above, I'd be thrilled to be able to condense all my books down into the space of about one book! I think the Kindle is neat, but the monochrome thing is a dealbreaker for me. So, we shall see.


----------



## LEDninja (Jan 5, 2010)

businessweek: Apple Said to Plan Tablet PC Introduction This Month
http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...blet-pc-introduction-this-month-update2-.html

showbizgossips: New Consumer Electeronics Show 2010 will show Apple Tablet iSlate, Google Nexus One and Others
http://www.showbizgossips.com/new-c...ablet-islate-google-nexus-one-and-others/3667

The Wall Street Journal: Apple to Ship Tablet Device in March
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703580904574638630584151614.html

-----

OTOH
mashable: Can Apple’s Tablet Succeed with a $1000 Price Tag?
http://mashable.com/2010/01/04/tablet-1000-price/

pcworld: An Affordable $199 Tablet for Everyone -- And It's Not From Apple
http://www.pcworld.com/article/185764/A_199_Tablet_for_Everyone_And_Its_Not_From_Apple.html


----------



## ElectronGuru (Jan 5, 2010)

LEDninja said:


> Can Apple’s Tablet Succeed with a $1000 Price Tag?



Depends on the OS. If its an iPod, $1000 is a lot to pay for what is essentially big screen access to the app store. OTOH, if its Mac OS, it would be a crazy thin laptop, capable of heavily subsidizing if not replacing a full computer. Double if they support BT keyboard linking.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 5, 2010)

I'm really pissed off that I didn't buy more Apple stock last January than I did.


----------



## blasterman (Jan 5, 2010)

> It just had absolutely nothing compelling about it so nobody was willing to shell out for a virtual clone of another company's product no matter how stable it was.


 
Here's the rub on this and why it's such a unique dynamic in the history of technology:

PC sales are driven primarily by the fact Windows will run on any junky Taiwanese chipset and video card. This allows PC makers a lot of lattitude in making hardware and fighting with each other to produce cheap desktops for consumers and large corporate arenas. So, Windows needs cheap PCs, and the PC industry needs Windows. We then have the entire AMD vs Intel soap opera. Even Apple got the benefit of this when they dumped IBM and Motorola and went to an Intel platform.

So, a dedicated 'Windows' desktop is a bit of an oxymoron, although you see this in the server market where hardware is optimized for Windows and stability / compatibility dramatically increases.

Jobs is on the right track here. The handwriting is on the wall for the bulky desktop computer (PC and Mac), and the current clamshell laptop is really just a desktop with everything crammed into a smaller form factor. 10 years from now they will be as odd as seeing a full size tower and CRT on your desk. 

Anyways, the new Mac product will likely be a bridge somewhere between the iPhone, netbook and MacBook. However, note that Apple tries to avoid making 'bridge' products, but products that also define their own niche'. Also note that the real reason that portable Apple laptops are so popular is not because they are so awesome, but because PC/Windows based laptops 'suck'. This is also a trend Apple has hinted at they are trying to get away from because it limits longterm product viability.


----------



## js (Jan 27, 2010)

SO . . .

It's here: the iPad. 9.7" IPS touch-screen.

Cost is $499 (16GB), $599 (32GB), $699 (64GB), for an iPad with no 3G connectivity (Wi-Fi and bluetooth only). Add $130 for 3G capability, but you need to pay a monthly fee to AT&T (but no contract--pay as you go): $15/month gets you 250MB of 3G data, and $30 gets you unlimited.

The iPad will run all current iPhone/iPod Touch apps in the app store in either a small pixel-to-pixel mapped screen in the middle of the iPad's larger screen, or in a pixel doubling mode. Newer apps either written or re-written for the iPad's larger screen will obviously be able to take full advantage of all those extra pixels. But in the mean time, it's nice to be able to use any and all of the current apps. Any that people bought already can be downloaded to the iPad straightaway (i.e. when you own an app, it is good for all your devices, not just one).

As expected there will be ebooks, with five publishers currently on board at launch.

Also as expected the cogniscenti at MacRumours already hate the iPad, complaining about it in every possible way, but mainly that it's "just an overgrown iPod Touch or iPhone".

Well, DUH! Not sure why they were expecting something else. :thinking:


----------



## vizlor (Jan 27, 2010)

I really like the design, but the lack of camera is "almost" a dealbreaker for me. I will still get it though. You pretty much nailed the "bigger iPhone" prediction. :thumbsup:


----------



## mwaldron (Jan 27, 2010)

I was hopeful for something really awesome, but it just didn't happen. I'll be getting a Nook.


----------



## TriChrome (Jan 27, 2010)

I wonder if there's going to be any breaks for iPhone users who already pay $30/month for unlimited internet (like the two devices linking to each other and sharing internet connection)

...if not, I'll just have my iPhone setup a WiFi connection and connect the iPad to it for internet access (like I already do with my laptop).


----------



## js (Jan 27, 2010)

mwaldron said:


> I was hopeful for something really awesome, but it just didn't happen. I'll be getting a Nook.



See, "really awesome", _for me_ can be not only some super new wiz-bang powerful feature set, but can *also* be something that _gets all the details right_.

And the iPad _may_ turn out to fall into that second category of "really awesome". Or it may not. IT IS TOO EARLY TO TELL. We need to wait and see what the user reviews are and what the important applications turn out to be, and so on. People were obviously expecting too much (as usual) from this release. It happens every time there is a new release. People develop a totally unrealistic list of "wants". Blu-Ray burner standard, two eSATA ports, 10MP camera, core 2 duo processor, 1,000 hour battery life time, and all for $399.

Sorry. But the Tablet was _never_ going to live up to all the hype that its rumored release generated.

In point of fact, I think just simply being a big iPod Touch *IS* (or could be) "really awesome"! The iPod Touch and iPhone are beyond awesome in my experience. There's just something about them. All the little details are right. They are a pleasure to use. If you just look at feature sets and specs, there are a number of other media players and smart phones out there that seem competitive (or even better, at least value-wise), but the reality belies the specs. The iPhone is so much better.

Similarly, you would be unwise to judge the iPad by specs and early comments from spectators and pundits. Wait. The user experience is what will make or break this device. That and the product markets that materialize (or fail to do so) for it.

I think it was very smart of them to separate out the 3G feature, and to make the data plan no commitment/pay-as-you-go. And I think these are priced very reasonably for the hardware.

Will I buy one? I don't know. I am waiting to see what happens with the eBook (and eMedia in general) situation, and to get my hands on one to see what it is like reading with it. As I said above, for me, the biggest deal with one of these is its "Kindle" type use (but with COLOR and hi-res display or better-res anyway). We shall see. Time will tell.


----------



## js (Jan 27, 2010)

TriChrome said:


> I wonder if there's going to be any breaks for iPhone users who already pay $30/month for unlimited internet (like the two devices linking to each other and sharing internet connection)
> 
> ...if not, I'll just have my iPhone setup a WiFi connection and connect the iPad to it for internet access (like I already do with my laptop).



Really good question! I'd love to know the answer. :thinking:


----------



## LukeA (Jan 27, 2010)

vizlor said:


> I really like the design, but the lack of camera is "almost" a dealbreaker for me. I will still get it though. You pretty much nailed the "bigger iPhone" prediction. :thumbsup:



Well, just imagine how funny you'd look holding this giant (by camera standards) thing with a tiny camera hole in the back to take a picture. You'd look like you were trying to hide from the people you were taking a picture of.


----------



## mwaldron (Jan 27, 2010)

js said:


> ...I think it was very smart of them to separate out the 3G feature, and to make the data plan no commitment/pay-as-you-go. And I think these are priced very reasonably for the hardware....



To me _*that *_is the most innovative feature of the device, and is truly worthy of applause and support. 

Cellular service providers are providing a bulk service and they're scared to death that consumers will figure that out. It's the main reason devices are subsidized and locked (even when unsubsidized) to their network so they can try to differentiate themselves on anything but the actual quality of their network. 

It's long past time we the consumers woke up and started treating service providers like what they are. Commodities.


----------



## csshih (Jan 27, 2010)

there is a reason apple started using intel processors instead of their own.

"1GHz Apple A4 custom-designed, high-performance, low-power system-on-a-chip"

sadly, apple decided that their profit wasn't high enough, and to go back to their processors. :sigh:

oh, and unbelievable price .. eh I think not.

don't get me wrong, I love apple's other products.. but this... ugh. perhaps we, the public, fueled speculation all too much.


----------



## fisk-king (Jan 27, 2010)

http://www.apple.com/ipad/#video

that is a very big iphone I must say. Its a cool concept, but I can wait for the 4th or 5th gen.:shrug: (jailbroken of course:thinking:)


----------



## js (Jan 27, 2010)

csshih said:


> there is a reason apple started using intel processors instead of their own.
> 
> "1GHz Apple A4 custom-designed, high-performance, low-power system-on-a-chip"
> 
> ...



Not pathetic at all. Apple acquired freaking *PA SEMI* about two years ago. Maybe you don't know who they are? Only a company which has about 100 _of the best chip designers on the planet_ working for them. And they *specialize* in low power consumption, high efficiency chips.

It isn't about short-term profit at the customers expense (It's about long-term profit by giving the customer what he or she wants). Apple paid a LOT of money to acquire PA Semi, and had to agree to honor their existing military contracts to boot. They did so because INTEL DOES NOT MAKE A GOOD CHIP IN THIS CATEGORY. Apple took their profits from previous years and INVESTED them in future performance. And it's going to start paying off in the next couple years.

You're off the mark on this one, csshih. You may not find an "overgrown" iPhone appealing, but there are _plenty_ of people who do.

As for the pricing, it IS very good pricing. Consider that Amazon sells the Kindle for *below cost* (because they make their money on the eBooks), and consider that the comparable sized Kindle is *$489* and doesn't have Wi-Fi and doesn't have an IPS color touch-screen and doesn't do email or web browsing and doesn't have thousands of applications available for it.


----------



## csshih (Jan 27, 2010)

sorry Jim, I realized that I was being rude and obnoxious and edited my post. too late, I see.

reading up on PA SEMI now. perhaps I was being the ignorant consumer that I've so hated.


----------



## js (Jan 27, 2010)

fisk-king said:


> http://www.apple.com/ipad/#video
> 
> that is a very big iphone I must say. Its a cool concept, but I can wait for the 4th or 5th gen.:shrug: (jailbroken of course:thinking:)



OK. OMG! I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it looks very much like _they got all the details right--the whole package--WOW!_. I'm freaking impressed!

And they used the same construction as the unibody macbooks. Those things are a joy to hold. They are so very precisely constructed. Fit and finish is perfect. And that's how this thing is constructed. And what a display! Wow! And an IPS screen is going to guarantee very good viewing angles. Nice, nice, nice!

I know the hype is thick in places on that video, but seriously, I think they're right about holding "the internet" in your hands and manipulating it with your hands and fingers--there's something--a LOT of something--to what they are saying in the video. And the email client and ebook client shown looked fantastic! And the speed of the responses to things tell me that that A4 processor is pretty damned impressive. Wait and see. Wait and read what Ars Technica says. I bet you he will be impressed with the processor.

See, this is what I've been saying. It's the details. How responsive is it? How good is the display? What are the viewing angles? How many touch sensors are on it? How is the software? These things are essential.

OK. Before I saw the details, I was thinking I wouldn't get one. Now, I think I probably will, depending on what early reviews are like.

I'm impressed. Dang that thing looks nice!


----------



## js (Jan 27, 2010)

Craig,

No worries! I totally understand! And, I shouldn't have mentioned it, actually. I edited my post as well.


----------



## LukeA (Jan 27, 2010)

This thing looks pretty cool. The music in the video is a bit much IMO, but I have an iPhone 3GS, so I already have most of the features they were talking about. Otherwise I'd certainly be lusting after this new iPad.

Having used Maps on the iPhone, the full-screen google earth app on the iPad looks awesome. 

I think my favorite part about the iPhone/iPad software is how fast it all is. I love the frame rate of all the animations and the responsiveness of the interface. It's like manipulating physical objects instead of virtual ones. I think that that's what separates the iPhone from the other smartphones.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 27, 2010)

Looks pretty cool to me, especially for technophobes. 

Wonder how this eReader capability is if using out in the bright sun. Many people love to sit outside reading a book, or now be able to surf the web. Not sure how it performs, including with the sun's heat on its parts. Have not read about any updates to the 3g transmission tower infrastructure (dropped calls) issues in certain areas.

Given their track record, I wouldn't dare be a guinea pig for their first generation.


----------



## gorn (Jan 27, 2010)

When I first saw the iPad I thought the whole concept was stupid. My wife and I both have iPhones and iPod touch. The mere though of a giant touch just didn't sound good to me. Then, after a few minutes of thinking about it and reading up on it I decided that it is a great idea. I use my iPhone or touch frequently at night when something that needs to be looked up on the Internet pops into my head. They are much faster than firing up my laptop, although the small size is kind of a hassle.

I showed the press info to my wife and told her I think I was going to get one instead of a rifle I had planned on buying. She said that she thought it was a neat idea and that I should get the iPad and the rifle. (Damn she is a good woman). I told her the prices and she said that it wasn't too much more expensive then "one of those little dumb Internet computers". She is insisting that I get the 64 gig unit.

I don't think I’ll get the 3g one, my iPhone can handle that and I’m sure AT&T won't allow sharing with the iPhone plan. One comment on 3G and dropped calls. My local hospital has cellular jammers. They kill your cellular transmissions completely, but they do not stop messaging coming or going so I don’t think AT&T's crappy network will be a real problem for the 3G models.


----------



## Benson (Jan 27, 2010)

I see they're maintaining the iPhone's tradition of low-resolution screens. 

Anyway, the only surprising thing to me is the 1.33 aspect ratio, and that's a good thing. IPS is good too. As for the many other things I don't like, they're pretty much a rehash of the typical Nokia or Linux fan's reasons for not getting an iPhone, and don't need discussion here. Pricing is certainly decent, and the details seem to be right, if it was a device I'd actually want.


----------



## bullfrog (Jan 28, 2010)

*Apple Ipad - IT'S HERE!*

http://www.apple.com/ipad/?cid=CDM-...c4db2c2836d0227ad9ac0c4&cp=em-P0009044-&sr=em

Who's getting one? Who's waiting? Thoughts?


From past experience, I'm going to wait for the second version, but I'm super excited to see this baby 

.


----------



## fizzwinkus (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: Apple Ipad - IT'S HERE!*

i'll be ponying up as soon as it comes out.
the saddest part is that even though they're using epub for ebooks, it will be incompatible with other epub book stores. i'm sad because the books we've already bought can't be used on it, but also happy because thet would stick it to adobe who i shouldn't describe in polite company.


----------



## BentHeadTX (Jan 28, 2010)

I've read up on the specs of the iPad (stupid name, BTW)

It does not have a camera, it does not have a card reader for your camera, it won't do multi-tasking, it does not have a video output for your TV, it won't inform you of accepting a keystroke (key magnification, click or screen vibration) it does not have high enough resolution for 720P high def native and it won't display Adobe Flash. 

MSI is coming out with a dual 10" touch screen netbook that can display both screens as stretched, individual screens or one is a keyboard image and the other high def display. When you type on the "keys" it will click and vibrate the screen to let you know it accepted the input. Flip it sideways and it adjusts the displays, it has a camera, card reader, HDMI video outputs, high def screens to display Adobe Flash. You can get a 128GB SSD for storage, it is upgradable, has an aluminum chassis and both 10" wide screen displays protect each other when you fold it up. The thing runs Win7 64 bit pro so no worries about buying everything from the Apple App Store. It is the same size when folded but gives twice the screen space when unfolded. 

Since you have to wait until April to get the iPad 3G for $829, I'll wait for June to get the MSI dual touch screen netbook for around the same price but have all the capability of a laptop, the functionality of a touch screen dual-tablet and I can run Win7, Linux or Google Chrome OS if I like. 

I guess the iPad is OK if you want a big iPod without a camera, it will do more than a Kindle but there is so much it won't do that I'll pass on it. Apple stock is dropping today, down around $8 (4%) so I guess I'm not the only one disappointed.


----------



## bullfrog (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: Apple Ipad - IT'S HERE!*

watching the keynote now... its mind blowing.

I wonder though how comfy extended typing is - holding it w one hand while poking with the other... seems sort of clumsy. And since there is no tilted display I wonder how just laying it flat on a table and typing is. If you see in the keynote, he has it on his lap on his crosed knee which holds it on a nice slant to type... 

I think the keyboard will be the biggest issue for me - I despise the one on my iphone 3gs.

It will deff need an angled base and wireless tactile keyboard to make me happy.

I wonder if they see this device as a laptop replacement for many? I just see it as a ereader/pda/media device on steroids.

I'm excited.


----------



## TriChrome (Jan 28, 2010)

gorn said:


> I don't think I’ll get the 3g one, my iPhone can handle that and I’m sure AT&T won't allow sharing with the iPhone plan.


That's the beauty of the iPhone, not in it's native locked-down form, but jailbroken and free. The iPhone can transmit it's own WiFi network which any Laptop, or the iPad with WiFi can connect to and use the iPhone's internet connection. AT&T knows nothing of it, neither should they since you pay for, and I quote "unlimited internet".



And BentHead, you just talked me out of buying one. Not because there's going to be other options, but because the iPad can't do Flash. What is Apple thinking? You loose the functionality of a good ~20% of the web when the device can't use Flash. It's just one more example (or way) of Apple controlling the content they deem you can use on a device YOU own.


----------



## fizzwinkus (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: Apple Ipad - IT'S HERE!*

i see it as living in a place where you aren't at your desk. i see it propped up on a knee as they did, or on a pillow before you go to bed - all the times you want desktop access, but aren't at your desk. it's the connectivity glue for those hours away from the keyboard.


----------



## js (Jan 28, 2010)

Benson said:


> I see they're maintaining the iPhone's tradition of low-resolution screens.



What are you talking about!?! The pixels per inch is very high indeed! The screen resolution is 1024-by-768-pixel resolution at 132 pixels per inch (ppi). The iPod Touch and iPhone are 480-by-320-pixel resolution at 163 pixels per inch. The 13" MBP is 1280-by-800! Low resolution? It has nearly the same resolution as the 13" MBP at a higher ppi.


----------



## js (Jan 28, 2010)

BentHeadTX said:


> I've read up on the specs of the iPad (stupid name, BTW)
> 
> It does not have a camera, it does not have a card reader for your camera, it won't do multi-tasking,



Wrong. It will do multi-tasking. Why do people always get this wrong?



> it does not have a video output for your TV,



Wrong. It will do so through the dock and an adaptor.



> it won't inform you of accepting a keystroke (key magnification, click or screen vibration)



Wrong. It clicks and has a visible indication, just like the iPod Touch and iPhone.



> it does not have high enough resolution for 720P high def native



Wrong. It has a vertical resolution of 768 pixels.



> and it won't display Adobe Flash.



This is true, it seems, and is a legitimate complaint.



> MSI is coming out with a dual 10" touch screen netbook that can display both screens as stretched, individual screens or one is a keyboard image and the other high def display. When you type on the "keys" it will click and vibrate the screen to let you know it accepted the input. Flip it sideways and it adjusts the displays, it has a camera, card reader, HDMI video outputs, high def screens to display Adobe Flash. You can get a 128GB SSD for storage, it is upgradable, has an aluminum chassis and both 10" wide screen displays protect each other when you fold it up. The thing runs Win7 64 bit pro so no worries about buying everything from the Apple App Store. It is the same size when folded but gives twice the screen space when unfolded.
> 
> Since you have to wait until April to get the iPad 3G for $829, I'll wait for June to get the MSI dual touch screen netbook for around the same price but have all the capability of a laptop, the functionality of a touch screen dual-tablet and I can run Win7, Linux or Google Chrome OS if I like.
> 
> I guess the iPad is OK if you want a big iPod without a camera, it will do more than a Kindle but there is so much it won't do that I'll pass on it. Apple stock is dropping today, down around $8 (4%) so I guess I'm not the only one disappointed.



Yeah. Great. So get an MSI dual touch screen notebook! I sincerely hope you're happy with it.


----------



## js (Jan 28, 2010)

In terms of flash, it looks like Adobe will have a workaround for that even if Apple doesn't end up supporting it.

Also, do you know why everyone is _claiming_ that the iPad doesn't support flash? Tech specs from the Apple website? Nope. Validated reports from Apple reps? Nope. Reliable rumors? Nope.

A picture from the demo. A picture:



> We're in the middle of Apple's special event, where Steve Jobs is showing off the much-anticipated iPad for the first time (yes, that name is now official). And judging by one photo captured during the presentation, it looks like the device won't support Flash. As Jobs showed off the iPad's browsing capabilities, Engadget captured a photo of the tell-tale blue missing plugin icon that shows up when you try viewing a Flash element without the plugin installed.


 (from this link)

OK. I'm sorry, but this is jumping the gun bigtime. The iPad could be running iPhone OS 4.0 which is not released and which is still being perfected, and it is at least _possible_ that it will have flash support. It is also possible that that missing item indicated by the little blue question mark was NOT because of a lack of support for flash.

Given Apple's past attitude, I agree that it's most likely that the iPad just doesn't support flash. But it is still just rumor and speculation at this point.

Thought that needed to be clearly pointed out.


----------



## js (Jan 28, 2010)

I did some looking into the A4 chip and it appears that, yes, PA Semi engineers are indeed responsible for the design. It was fabbed by Samsung and is based on a 45nm process. It is a SOC, fully integrated chip. Other than that, little is known about it, which is not surprising given Apple's tendency to keep things like this close to the vest.


----------



## js (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: Apple Ipad - IT'S HERE!*

Errr, guys, there is already a thread on this. I posted it over a year ago so you need to go to the last page(s) to see the most recent discussion, but why don't we move discussion over there?

_I merged them together, Jim. -Empath_


----------



## BentHeadTX (Jan 28, 2010)

I don't want an adapter for my TV!

I want to view everything on the web...Flash included!

I wanted to use Skype (no camera) 

Basically the iPad is a toy, a gizmo...a gee whiz thing. My brother who owns an iPod, iPhone, iMac, iBook and all that jazz was in shock. He just purchased an Asus 11.6" netbook, upgraded the memory and ordered a 128GB SSD to run Hackintosh OSX. He thought the iPad was cool but if he is going to carry around something that large, it better have more capabilities than it does. 

I was expecting a tablet that would have the usability of a netbook. Alas, it is a giant iPod Touch without a camera. 

The good thing about the iPad is the other manufacturers will include all the things Apple left out. The prototypes should be known by the time the iPad ships which will take a lot of wind out of their sails (sales) 

AAPL is down $8.99 to 198 and change today, guess I'm not the only one that is bummed.


----------



## TriChrome (Jan 28, 2010)

JS, besides alleged licensing issues between Apple and Adobe, most people seem to agree that the reason why all of these iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad devices won't support Flash is because Apple wants to maintain their strangle hold on what software their devices can run (and on a related topic, feel free to list a single computer that an individual owns which you can't load software onto it except from a single store that the manufacturer of the computer just happens to own).

Anyway, most/many of the Apps written for the iPhone (and thus the iPad) are written in the same language (or an extremely similar programming language) as Flash. With the release of Adobe's Flash > iPhone plug-in (I forget what it's called), many Flash programmers have entered the iPhone App arena. 

So, if any of these Apple devices could run a full version of Flash (which my 300mhx Pentium III processor, with 128 megs of ram, circa 1997 can still easily run), Apple would loose their communist-inspired strangle hold on which Apps YOUR computer YOU own (iPad/iPhone) can run, and in the process it seems that they cripple their own products instead.

This is what makes many people dislike Apple and how they do business. It also makes every single one of their devices like the iPhone/iPad extremely outdated since Flash is an integral part of the web viewing experience. If you're following my logic, this also makes every single claim of Apple like "the best way to experience the web, hands down" -in reference to the iPad- and the other twenty key0phrases they spout like that, complete and utter B.S.


----------



## js (Jan 28, 2010)

BentHeadTX,

If you didn't want to output to your TV, why did you complain that the iPad couldn't do it?

As for Apple's stock, I shouldn't have to point out that the market is hardly an all-knowing entity. But, yes, you're not the only one who is disappointed. As I said above, it was inevitable that people would be disappointed. It doesn't mean anything at this point. What investors should REALLY be doing right now with Apple stock is buying, buying, buying. Whether _you_ like it or not, I am quite certain that the iPad is going to be big. It may not "change the game" or define a whole new category. But it WILL be a strong seller and there WILL be a lot of media sold to support it. Apple's stock is down due to FUD and reactionism, not intelligent analysis.

You think the iPad is a "toy, a gizmo...a gee whiz thing"? Why? 'Cause it can't do Skype? Because it can't do FLASH? Really?

My brother earns his living through the internet and his computer, and he is thrilled with what we know about the iPad right now. He can buy the 3G model and have access to email and the web while traveling. Despite what some have said, iWork and the email client will handle Microsoft Office documents just fine, so he can do his work on the thing, and it will also connect to projectors via bluetooth or through the dock for presentations. He's a professional and he is thinking about selling his Macbook and buying an iMac desktop for home and an iPad for when he is traveling.

As for the size, no matter what size a product is there will be people who will find it too small and people who will find it too large. I think it looks like it is a good size, but I will hold off on my verdict until I've actually held one first.


----------



## fizzwinkus (Jan 28, 2010)

i could try typing a bunch of reasons and likely mangle any worthy ideas, so i'll just link to stephen fry: http://www.stephenfry.com/2010/01/28/ipad-about/


----------



## js (Jan 28, 2010)

TriChrome said:


> JS, besides alleged licensing issues between Apple and Adobe, most people seem to agree that the reason why all of these iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad devices won't support Flash is because Apple wants to maintain their strangle hold on what software their devices can run (and on a related topic, feel free to list a single computer that an individual owns which you can't load software onto it except from a single store that the manufacturer of the computer just happens to own).
> 
> Anyway, most/many of the Apps written for the iPhone (and thus the iPad) are written in the same language (or an extremely similar programming language) as Flash. With the release of Adobe's Flash > iPhone plug-in (I forget what it's called), many Flash programmers have entered the iPhone App arena.
> 
> ...



These are good points, but I think you went too far in the last sentence. As for Apple's philosophy, I think there are some counter points to be made to your position, mostly in reference to DRM, but yes, there's definitely something to what you're saying.

However, it can also be seen from the point of view of the upsides involved. If Apple controls hardware _and_ software you have greater stability. Also, I can buy digital music or video from anywhere and put it into my iTunes library and synch it to my iPod. The only monopoly is on the app store, which is the _software_ stuff. Which gets back to controlling (or overseeing) software and hardware and stability.

Doesn't negate your point, but is a legitimate counterpoint, I think.


----------



## js (Jan 28, 2010)

fizzwinkus said:


> i could try typing a bunch of reasons and likely mangle any worthy ideas, so i'll just link to stephen fry: http://www.stephenfry.com/2010/01/28/ipad-about/



Nice. I love this bit:



> I know there will be many who have already taken one look and pronounced it to be nothing but a large iPhone and something of a disappointment. I have heard these voices before. In June 2007 when the iPhone was launched I collected a long list of “not impressed”, “meh”, “big deal”, “style over substance”, “it’s all hype”, “my HTC TyTN can do more”, “what a disappointment”, “majorly underwhelmed” and similar reactions. They can hug to themselves the excuse that the first release of iPhone was 2G, closed to developers and without GPS, cut and paste and many other features that have since been incorporated. Neither they, nor I, nor anyone, predicted the “game-changing” effect the phone would so rapidly have as it evolved into a 3G, third-party app rich, compass and GPS enabled market leader. Even if it had proved a commercial and business disaster instead of an astounding success, iPhone would remain the most significant release of its generation because of its effect on the smartphone habitat. Does anybody seriously believe that Android, Nokia, Samsung, Palm, BlackBerry and a dozen others would since have produced the product line they have without the 100,000 volt taser shot up the jacksie that the iPhone delivered to the entire market?



Spot on.


----------



## js (Jan 28, 2010)

Ah! I see StephenFry has the same point to make in regards to Apple's controlling nature as I did:



> 2. It is made by Apple. I’m not being cute here. If it was made by Hewlett Packard, they wouldn’t have global control over the OS or the online retail outlets. If it was made by Google, they would have tendered out the hardware manufacture to HTC. Apple — and it is one of the reasons some people distrust or dislike them — control it all. They’ve designed the silicon, the A4 chip that runs it all, they’ve designed the batteries, they’ve overseen every detail of the commercial, technological, design and software elements. No other company on earth does that. And being Apple it hasn’t been released without (you can be sure) Steve Jobs being wholly convinced that it was ready. “Not good enough, start again. Not good enough. Not good enough. Not good enough.” How many other CEOs say until their employees want to murder them? That’s the difference.



Nicely said.


----------



## BentHeadTX (Jan 28, 2010)

I want output to my TV but don't want to carry around optional adapters and such.

Apple stock was booming lately because of the iPad, it was supposed to change the world, or so it was thought. The hype machine for it was huge, the expectations were very high and it did not deliver. 

The iPhone has a camera and so does the iPod touch. Why no camera with the iPad? There is no card reader so you can easily check out the pictures from your camera. This is not something I would call the way to view pictures. Sure, I can upload them to my email then download them but why? 

Not using Flash is obvious, Apple wants to be the gate keeper and control everything that is on their devices. Is this the way to have the best experience on the internet? Not for me it isn't! 

The expectations were for it to include those mind numbingly simple additions to the iPad. Their glaring omission from it change it from the ultimate netbook to the ultimate iCan't. 

It will do very well against the Kindle as an ebook reader, works great as a web device as long as you work within it's limits (not yours) and it has great battery life and is very thin. 

Will it succeed like the iPod and iPhone? No...it could of but it won't. 

Apple, Microsoft and Intel all HATE netbooks. My brother uses a netbook running Snow Leopard (he has been running Mac networks since 1984 along with Linux, Windows and Sun stuff) He wanted the iPad to run OSX, run everything on the web, have a camera for web conferencing and do everything that his "Hackintosh" Asus 11.6 inch netbook does. 

I told him that the MSI dual 10" touch screen netbooks will be out by June. Throw in a 128GB SSD with Hackintosh OSX 10.6 on it, maybe Linux or Google Chrome OS and press on. The dual-touch screens fold up to protect themselves and with the ION2 chipset coming out, he can do 1080P, play basic video games, Skype, take pictures and anything else he wants to do. If you want it to be an e-reader, it opens like a book and you have two screens for the two pages like a book (bonus!) Basically two iPads with a hinge in the middle with all the capability of a notebook and none of the downsides. 

Although the iPad is a fail for me, I'm sure they will sell well. On the upside the A4 processor kicks butt so maybe when Apple copies MSI....errr, comes out with a dual screen tablet running OSX 10.6 (it folds!) They can stuff two A4 processors in there and I would buy one...if it does flash native...if it has a camera...if I don't need optional adapters to output to a TV or monitor...if it has a card reader for loading pictures from my camera...

Then again, I can get what I want with an MSI dual touch screen netbook with ION2 graphics, the Snow Leopard 10.6 disc I have sitting on my desk and hack it in there. Already have the operating system, now to wait till June for the hardware. 

To sum it up, the iPad was supposed to obsolete netbooks...to "do more than a netbook" as Steve Jobs said in the introduction. Maybe Steve should of purchased a touch screen netbook to see if the iPad would beat it. I know Asus has dual core Atom netbooks with nVidia ION video chipsets out now, with touch screen stuff, more powerful processors and ION2 graphics rolling out in two months. So now the battle lines are drawn, iPad VS touch screen netbooks VS touch screen tablets. Competition is good! 

Then there is that video on youtube that came out a few years back, wonder if Apple has to pay for the name iPad considering it has been used before in a comedy sketch? 



js said:


> BentHeadTX,
> 
> If you didn't want to output to your TV, why did you complain that the iPad couldn't do it?
> 
> ...


----------



## Benson (Jan 28, 2010)

js said:


> What are you talking about!?! The pixels per inch is very high indeed! The screen resolution is 1024-by-768-pixel resolution at 132 pixels per inch (ppi). The iPod Touch and iPhone are 480-by-320-pixel resolution at 163 pixels per inch. The 13" MBP is 1280-by-800! Low resolution? It has nearly the same resolution as the 13" MBP at a higher ppi.


:sigh:

I'm talking about practically _every_ smartphone in the Japanese market having 848x480 in 3.5" (or so) at 280 ppi.
I'm talking about the whole crop of Nokia and Archos tablets, a couple other high-end smartphones, and the Pandora (a crazy Linux game machine) all running 800x480 in 4-4.2" at 225 ppi, and the new N900 (finally!) catching up to the Japanese at 800x480/3.5=265.
I'm talking about standard 8.9" netbooks having 1024x600 -- 133 dpi. 
I'm talking about _serious_ netbooks, like various HP kit, having 1280x720 or larger at 150-170ppi.
I'm talking about real ultraportables like the U820 -- 1280x800 in 5.6" -- 270ppi

IMO, touchscreen devices that will always be held in one hand (phones, PDAs, 3-5" tablets) should be at significantly higher resolutions -- 300ppi is not excessive, and 200ppi is barely adequate. Laptop screens that mostly live at arms reach to allow typing comfortably on the keyboard can get by with 100-133, although more would definitely be welcome. Large tablets with no keyboard will be used at an intermediate distance, and so they should logically have intermediate resolutions -- 170-200 would be about right.

I get that (despite talk of Jobs's reality distortion field) Apple has got where it is by two things: great marketing and providing a really shiny user experience in all areas, hardware and software, which a lot of people want. While I generally prefer raw functionality over polish, and realize this makes me not part of their target market, I'd have thought the _one_ thing we could agree on was high-resolution screens -- they have great impact in person, with the added crispness of lines, and smoothness of anti-aliased text, and they _also_ should be easy to market (something like the Flip vs. Nano w/camera slides last year). So ever since the iPhone came out, with no better than high-end laptop resolution, and worse than top-shelf phones and PDAs, this has been one of my pet peeves. True, I wouldn't have gotten an iPhone if it _did_ have 848x480, but I'd have been eternally grateful for the kick it would have given the rest of the market, and it is quite possible I might have gone for an iPad at some point if they'd broke 150ppi. But with this screen -- not interested.


js said:


> BentHeadTX said:
> 
> 
> > it does not have high enough resolution for 720P high def native
> ...


That it does. It also has a horizontal resolution of 1024 pixels -- not adequate for 720p, which is 1280x720.


----------



## BentHeadTX (Jan 28, 2010)

If the iPad is not for you...

MSI is releasing a 10" touch screen tablet with a dual core 1GHz nVidia Tegra2 processor running Google Android. Yes, it does Adobe Flash and high def stuff native. They did not say if it had a camera but I know their dual 10" touch screen netbook (folding tablet?) sports HDMI outputs, has a camera, solid state hard drive etc so the single tablet version most likely will follow suit. It will arrive this summer at a price of $499 and there will be more than one in the series. Maybe a 7" tablet, 10" tablet and 13" tablet? 

Will I buy one? No, I don't like the idea of the thing falling on it's face and tearing up the screen. When I drop my toast, it always lands jelly side down so I take that as a warning to stay away from tablets.  I'm sticking with the dual 10" touch screen "netbook" version since I can fold it up, thow it in a backpack, briefcase etc without being worried about scratching up the screen. 

Besides, if I blew my money on every gizmo coming down the pipe, how could I buy flashlights?! I'm more excited about the SST-90 than tablet computers so...


----------



## Saaby (Jan 29, 2010)

csshih said:


> there is a reason apple started using intel processors instead of their own.
> 
> "1GHz Apple A4 custom-designed, high-performance, low-power system-on-a-chip"




It's already been covered a little bit -- but this is distinctly a mobile device, the iPhone doesn't run an Intel chip either. Apple isn't going to go away from using Intel chips in their computers. 




BentHeadTX said:


> Apple stock is dropping today, down around $8 (4%) so I guess I'm not the only one disappointed.




I have 6 stocks on the Stocks widget on my dashboard. Apple, another tech stock, a market index -- all 6 are red today. Stock prices do not always correlate with news stories, contrary to popular belief.


I don't think the iPad is perfect! The event felt a little underwhelming, and it seems like they could have done more. I'm not talking about unrealistic amounts of more, like MacBook Pro power in a iPad sized device, the technology just isn't there yet, I'm talking about...they didn't even mention MobileMe. Am I going to share this among the whole family? I have 8 calendars in iCal just for me...how am I going to share this 1 device with the whole family, and share something like iCal? It felt like they did the bare minimum that they needed to do to announce this.

That said, I think there's a TON of potential in the thing, and I truly think it will be a success. Here are my blog entries:

Why I think the iPad will be a success
5 more quick ideas on the iPad

Let me pull a few excerpts for you.



> As an Engineer, I have come to accept that the design of any product is a byproduct of the tradeoffs you're willing to take to make something. This is a blog post on the tradeoffs Apple made in making the iPad.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


----------



## BentHeadTX (Jan 29, 2010)

Apple just added VoIP to their app store

At least you can make internet calls on the pad now. With mounting pressure on Apple, they do have two months to add the missing camera to the iPad. Even my Apple fanboy buddies wonder why they don't have a camera on an internet device so they will wait for revision 2. 

Like the A4 though, it should make a very powerful iPhone update this year. With Apple buying 10 million touch screens, it will drive the price down on those things so I can get the netbook with touch screen at a cheaper price (bonus!) 

I am very thankful that I don't use AT&T, with all those iPads about to clog the network further, it will kill everyone else. I live in an area that does not get 3G so it is not an option for me anyway. 

How does that stock saying go? "Buy on rumor, sell on..." There is love and there is money. I want the Saints to win the super bowl but would I place a bet on them? Uhhhhh, the money part cuts the emotion out so I find stock prices to be a more reliable indicator than internet babble. 

For all the flashaholics that want a flashlight that gives perfect flood, get an iPad and run the flashlight app. That app works great on an iPhone so when the iPad gets released, can somebody do beam shots and run time charts?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 29, 2010)

They should add a REALLY effective voice recognition software program that types as you talk and launches command driven programs. Even if they started with their MacSpeech which I think uses the Dragon Naturally Speaking software...would make it a more useable package deal.


----------



## ElectronGuru (Jan 29, 2010)

BentHeadTX said:


> it does not have a card reader for your camera





BentHeadTX said:


> There is no card reader so you can easily check out the pictures from your camera.




Check out 0:48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1prGIw9H-X0


If we're going to laundry list knock what it can't do, perhaps we could wait until we know all that it can do.

I was hoping for an OSX device, but such software is resource intensive (and more $$). Perhaps with enough software development, this will do. The big question: can we get a *CPF/Ready®* sticker??


----------



## tebore (Jan 29, 2010)

There's one group of people who the iPad will win over. Who you ask? Old people. 

People over 40 who don't have kids at home (no free tech support) and think the touch is too small on the eyes and have lots of money and like to read (ebooks and iBooks to sell them) will buy it. 

I just listed 3 of the iPad's strengths and how it'll work out. 
For me the iPad's a "bust". 

Reasons:
- $20 more than the Kindle (Kindle has free 3G). 
- Pricing in netbook territory but less functionality. 
- The dock... interesting. Especially if it works with the iPhone imagine teaming it up with your iPhone for a full on mobile workstation that you can dock at home and throw in your pocket. Especially now with the BTstack mouse & keyboard software from Cydia. 
- The USB/SD adapter thing, how stupid do they think people are?
- 10 hour battery life is a joke. If you consider that it's basically a bigger iPhone (bigger battery) with a tweaked chipset you should get way longer battery life. It could be argued that an IPS panel uses more power than traditional panels. I believe the iPhone also uses IPS panels.

One thing is certain this will make money for Apple because of iBooks and to some Apple electronics ARE fashion accessories. Apple will bring more functionality through updates and through hard revisions . When they come up with an "iPad 3GS" I might consider it. 

JS: Can you explain how it can multitask? I understand this device runs the iPhone OS and will not have multitasking. Though if jailbroken backgrounder can fix that, but out of the box it cannot. iPhoneOS 4.0 will bring it but this won't run it for a while. 

The worst thing is this thing won't even run [email protected]  jk


----------



## TriChrome (Jan 29, 2010)

For multitasking, he probably means what a stock iPhone can do; run iPod, Safari, and Mail in the background as you run another program... it's just too bad that's all that can be run in the background, and nothing else.


----------



## tebore (Jan 29, 2010)

TriChrome said:


> For multitasking, he probably means what a stock iPhone can do; run iPod, Safari, and Mail in the background as you run another program... it's just too bad that's all that can be run in the background, and nothing else.



That's what I figured and is too bad. If this is the case you can't defend the position on multitasking js, otherwise please enlighten us. I love my iPhone and would love a mobile Apple device with real multitasking.


----------



## Empath (Jan 29, 2010)

tebore said:


> There's one group of people who the iPad will win over. Who you ask? Old people.
> 
> People over 40 who don't have kids at home (no free tech support) and think the touch is too small on the eyes and have lots of money and like to read (ebooks and iBooks to sell them) will buy it.



"Old people...........People over 40"???

"Old people" are the ones that developed computers and high tech gadgets, and taught the youth how to use them. The "old people" that have waited this long to learn of these appliances don't need whippersnappers to come rescue them. Their friends and peers invented and developed the things. A little help from the friends, and they'll be right up with you kids.

These things aren't something the kids have given the "old people". The "old people" gave them to the kids.


----------



## jtr1962 (Jan 29, 2010)

Empath said:


> "Old people...........People over 40"???


LOL.  :laughing: Now after reading Tebore's post I really feel old.

NOT!

Hasn't anyone heard that 40 is the new 30 ( or is it 20? ). I keep forgetting. Must be a sign of getting old.


----------



## fizzwinkus (Jan 29, 2010)

http://stevenf.tumblr.com/post/359224392/i-need-to-talk-to-you-about-computers-ive-been

this is why i think the ipad is so polarizing. all complaints about the iphone and now ipad are valid - they are limited use devices. but these limitations bring huge accessibility wins that have made the iphone a giant success. i have no doubt that eventually, we will be capable of running xcode on the ipad, with all the bells and whistles and ports you need, just not yet.


----------



## tebore (Jan 29, 2010)

My over 40 comment is a bit tongue in cheek. I guess the truth would be closer to the over 65 crowd. Ones who did not grow up or work with computers. 

I don't agree with what the author in the article said that most devices would be moving towards a closed sandbox type computing environment. For example we'll use the iPhone it's a very unremarkable device until you jailbreak it which brings in much of the functionality that Apple decided you shouldn't have. 

The big issue and what jailbreaking fixes is access to the file system. The article says you'll be working with data instead of files but the issue is Apple makes it hard for you to even get files on to the device so you can manipulate the data. My Nokia N95 out of the box has better functionality than the iPhone ever did when out of the box. Yes a closed/controlled approach to computing can allow for a better computing experience in some cases. For example when you have backgrounder on your touch/phone it makes you decide what you want to keep running instead of letting everything run in the background. It's inspires a conservative mind set such as if you know you have no fresh water you're not going to wash your car every weekend. 

The big push for Apple and it's iPod/iPhone brand is their whole synergistic business strategy with iTunes. iBooks and iWorks will be another push for the iPad.


----------



## fizzwinkus (Jan 29, 2010)

Unless a significant majority, say 75% of people who buy the iPhone dis so with the intention of using jail broken apps, I think it is hard to say a non-jailbroken iPhone is "very unremarkable."


----------



## BentHeadTX (Jan 29, 2010)

I was reading about to whom the iPad is aimed towards, very interesting.

It is not aimed at tech heads, Apple fanboys, geeks or people that want a fully functional computer. It is aimed at people that are not technically savvy, want something simple to use and don't mind paying to one source to get that capability. 

Apple is pretty smart in that area, the iPod was solid white and for tweens, teens and 20 somethings it was a fashion accessory. The iPhone looked so slick it was obvious what it was, you got it...high fashion tech that worked well and for the most part, worked very well. 

Tablets have been out for years but they were expensive full operating system models that were not easy to use. Now that Apple brought out a really shiny, pretty thing called the iPad--it should be a fashion hit at Starbucks. Get the cheapest one for $500, sip your latte and it sure is pretty.

This is something that really wrankles the tech heads but such is technology I guess. The fashion hit in 2005 was to have a laptop--any laptop at the coffee shop. 2007--2009 it was a small netbook or Macbook Air, thin is in!

The iPad should do well at the markets it is targeted at, people that don't want to mess around with operating systems, tweaking, hacking...switch it on and go. Yes, it don't do a lot of things but it looks good, is easy to use, it is not too expensive and all the cool kids will have one. 

Apple knows the tech heads would hammer the iPad, that is OK...it is not aimed at them anyway. Makes sense I guess, the iPod was never aimed at audiophiles either. 

I see a problem with this though, Apple kept the hype machine going for years on their tablet so there are a flood of tablets about to arrive also. Everything from 5" Dell tablets, dual 7" and dual 10" touch screen netbook/tablet things from MSI, Google Android tablets from Asus, MSI and Dell to who knows what from HP. This stuff is not coming two years from now, it will start showing up as the iPad launches. 

The tech heads will get their Win7 dual touch screen MSI netbooks that beat up the iPad on specs and functionality. Other folks will snap up the 10 to 12" Asus touch screen netbooks so they can have the "tablet cool" but also fold it up to throw in a backpack. The market is starting to flood with tablets but is the market big enough to hold them? Is there a huge pent up demand for a tablet? 

For the tween/teen/college crowd it will be very fashionable to carry that thing around. Not sure how happy they will be when they drop it and scratch up the screen. The iPhone is small enough to not make it a big issue but a 10" tablet might be. I can see a foam thing to go around the edges (in many different color options) those might sell well so if it falls on it's face, it won't tear up the screen. 

My belief is the iPad will arrive with Adobe Flash enabled as a "gift" from Apple and it will have a camera built in. They have two months, not like it is hard to do. Just another way Jobs can yank your chain. 

I can see an "uparmored" iPad that you can drop, kick around and spill things on being a big seller in business, medical and LEO/Military use. Basically, a much lighter, much, much, MUCH cheaper Panasonic Toughbook. Steve Jobs is probably playing with one and caressing the OLED screen as I type this. The rubber edging could seal the ports so it can operate in really nasty environments since the rest of the thing is sealed. It will have to run an OLED screen for durability, a glass panel would not last in industrial use. Bar code scanner is optional. 

Since we tend to talk flashlights, flashlight technology and many of us know the bin codes of Lumileds, Cree, Lumisus and Nichia LEDs--we are not the intended market for the iPad or all those other tablets about to hit the market. 

I can see people trying to figure out the total lumens put off by tablets though. Think of it! The iPad/Dell/HP/Asus/MSI/Samsung/Lenovo/Sony/Toshiba/Acer tablet lumen shootout! Beam shots, run times and throw (?) charts to ponder. 

Now I go back to watching what is coming out in 10 to 12" touch screen net books, dual-core Atom and ION2 or ????? Should I put Hackintosh OSX on a SSD or hard drive? Hmmmm....


----------



## fizzwinkus (Jan 30, 2010)

i agree with most of what you wrote. just wanted to add some explanations to some key points. netbook manufacturers were aware and preparing for an apple netbook/tablet/sliced bread. what they weren't prepared for, though, was the price. everyone had been saying $1000. netbook manufacturers, being used to selling cheaper machines, were developing for the ~$700-800 range to undercut apple. now, at $500, they've got a problem. 

flash is a problem with the web because it's the only point controlled by a single company. apple is eschewing flash to weaken it's stranglehold and push html5 - a web standard that no one company controls and can be relied upon to be the same everywhere. they are doing the same with epub, the book format the ipad/ibooks will use. 

epub is an open standard, but 99% of all current epub files use private adobe drm to lock them, giving adobe the same control over all epub files. without their registration servers, you or any publisher is dead in ther water. apple is using their own drm until book publishers can be pushed into drm free epub, just like music. (for everything the music publishers have done, video, and then print are worse)

lastly, the iphone may be fashionable, but the best reason for it's success is that normal users don't need to manage it. they don't want the task manager, or uninstall procedures, or registry hacks. they want something that can be relied upon to not screw up after a couple months. the app store takes freedom away from the developer to ultimately ensure one thing: that users can install and uninstall any and all apps at will, over and over, without screwing up the system.

I love hacking and tinkering with things as much as the next person here (which we should admit, are not an average cross section of users), but some things i don't want to manage. i want them setup to be a workflow, easy and reliable. there will always be room for both.


----------



## fizzwinkus (Jan 30, 2010)

http://speirs.org/blog/2010/1/29/future-shock.html

i think this explains nicely what i'm trying to say


----------



## Saaby (Jan 30, 2010)

I agree that a camera would have been nice, and I'm almost sure they'll eventually add one.

But honesty. Honestly. When was the last time you used the Webcam on your laptop? My laptop has one, and it's nice or fun once in awhile -- but I'd call it more novelty than necessity. Perhaps I'm wrong and there's a big group of people who rely on their Webcam daily...even weekly...but most of us don't really use it that often I'd guess.

It's the same mentality that causes people to think they need an AWD car for the 1 or 2 days a year when there's 1/2" of snow on the ground.


----------



## LEDninja (Jan 31, 2010)

iPad? That's so 2002
http://thespec.com/News/article/715113
Fujitsu, which applied for an iPAD trademark in 2003, is claiming first dibs, setting up a fight with Apple over the name of the new tablet.


----------



## kwkarth (Jan 31, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> They should add a REALLY effective voice recognition software program that types as you talk and launches command driven programs. Even if they started with their MacSpeech which I think uses the Dragon Naturally Speaking software...would make it a more useable package deal.



I agree that voice recognition would be a boon to the UI, but how do you implement that without it becoming awkward? You have to block out all but the owner's voice. I noise canceling bluetooth earpiece like the Jawbone might be one way, but then it's another gadget you have to carry around...

Handwriting recognition is another feature for the UI that would be good.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 31, 2010)

kwkarth said:


> I agree that voice recognition would be a boon to the UI, but how do you implement that without it becoming awkward? You have to block out all but the owner's voice. I noise canceling bluetooth earpiece like the Jawbone might be one way, but then it's another gadget you have to carry around...
> 
> Handwriting recognition is another feature for the UI that would be good.



The best Dragon programs require a noise cancelling mic. That's essential if you are ever operating in any environment with background noises. Another feature I think would be a winner combination is the technology used by Livescribe, with a QUALITY recording interface and taking notes with linked replay all digitally stored.


----------



## kwkarth (Feb 1, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> The best Dragon programs require a noise cancelling mic. That's essential if you are ever operating in any environment with background noises. Another feature I think would be a winner combination is the technology used by Livescribe, with a QUALITY recording interface and taking notes with linked replay all digitally stored.



I've been using a Livescribe Pulse SmartPen since they first came out. Love the technology and utility. I would *never* be without my SmartPen if it were just a little bit smaller, retractible, and had a pocket clip.


----------



## Jesseri (Feb 1, 2010)

I don't understand Apple's policy on flash support. I would hate to use devices which would not render big part of pages correctly. Flash is so widely used on web pages today, that it takes many many years before we are out of "flash hell" on the internet. It'll take at least couple years before we see any welcomed changes with HTML5 standard. 

I dig the idea of iPad, but device itself leaves me cold, like so many Apple devices before.


----------



## fizzwinkus (Feb 1, 2010)

in apple's view, flash has one pro: it plays videos on some websites. in many of those websites, there are already iphone alternatives, and the web as a whole is moving to html5 to replace flash.

in the cons list:
efficiency. flash on a computer consumes upwards of 50-100 times more resources to do it's thing. playing flash video on windows has gotten better because adobe has hooked flash directly into your graphics card hardware. this is a bad thing. (more later) if flash can cut hours off your laptop, what will it do to you phone? here's a video of flash on a smartphone. is that really worth a significant chunk of your battery life? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iraafWLkPb8

second, flash is buggy. on the mac, over half of all system and application crash reports are because of flash. the firefox team just disabled flash on their windows and mac browsers for similar reasons. as i said before, flash is hooked directly into your hardware on windows. that leads to it's buggyness affecting your gpu and likely taking down an important part of your system when it does crash. the mac uses a code abstraction layer (quicktime) to access the hardware exactly so things like this don't happen and adobe doesn't want to use quicktime. 

over the next year, as virtually all browsers move to support html5, and existing support for either iphone optimized websites or apps grows, flash will become less and less a part of the web and your computers will crash less and battery life will grow because of it.


----------



## gorn (Feb 5, 2010)

TriChrome said:


> That's the beauty of the iPhone, not in it's native locked-down form, but jailbroken and free. The iPhone can transmit it's own WiFi network which any Laptop, or the iPad with WiFi can connect to and use the iPhone's internet connection. AT&T knows nothing of it, neither should they since you pay for, and I quote "unlimited internet".



What app do you use for the wifi router ability? I just installed PDAnet on my iPhone and it seems to work good. It is a little picky on which wifi cards it talks to. It works fine with my HP and Acer laptops but will not get past a local only connection with my Asus. I have to use the USB cord for the Asus to get Internet.


----------



## TriChrome (Feb 5, 2010)

MyWi, available on Rock. Best $10 I ever spent. You can also link them up over bluetooth or USB if you don't want to setup a WiFi network.


----------



## gorn (Feb 5, 2010)

TriChrome said:


> MyWi, available on Rock. Best $10 I ever spent. You can also link them up over bluetooth or USB if you don't want to setup a WiFi network.



I'll check that out. The PDAnet is free so I have no real complaints. I like the bluetooth ability though.

It is nice to be in the middle of nowhere and get net access.


----------



## burgessdi (Feb 22, 2010)

This is a most interesting thread!

I've always been a mac fangirl. My dad brought home the Lisa when I was a kid and from then on I just used Macs. I do use both platforms but most of my software is also Mac based.

I made a huge mistake though and got the mac mini that doesn't upgrade to Snow Leopard. :mecry:

Having said that I will say it is sometimes amusing to see people go ballistic everytime Apple releases a new product (even when they don't need it). 

At this time I don't think the max-iPad will meet my needs. I'd rather just apply the money towards a new MacBook. It does look spiffy though!!!


----------



## LEDninja (Apr 18, 2010)

The cat and the iPad.

iggy investigates an ipad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9NP-AeKX40

iPad Cat watches iPad Cat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qwrtNdRZgQ&feature=related

Ipad Cat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyO-KiYIDm0&feature=related

Ipad Cat 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9NYPAEbvEo&feature=related

*Or you can just watch the Compilation
OMG! iPad Cat Compilation - iPad Cats Strike Again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMkeFryN8Z4&feature=related*

No cats this time
Magic Piano for iPad [initial tour]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5yKw2cYDWg&NR=1


----------



## js (Apr 26, 2010)

So, we bought an iPad the week it came out, and I've _actually used one_, so I feel it is now time for me to comment again. That and my craziness at work has let up somewhat.

OK. Multi-tasking. To say that the iPhone and iPad "don't multitask" is flat out wrong. The hardware is fully capable of multi-tasking, and does it all the time. You can listen to music while surfing the web. If that's not multi-tasking, what is it?

That said, the thing that people are getting at when they say this is that you can't run two or more *third-party apps* at the same time. This is a _software/OS_ limitation, however, and can be lifted any time. And in point of fact, iPhone OS 4.0 will enable third party multitasking on the iPad, iPhone 3GS, and 3rd gen iPod Touch. It comes out this summer.

Flash. Flash is a pig, both in terms of memory and processor use, and it's an adobe product. It should be replaced, and it will be replaced, and Apple is just forcing the issue. If this is a deal breaker for you, so be it. Personally, I am with Apple on this one. Anything that I have needed so far, flash-wise, has been taken care of by an app. Need to watch a youtube video? There's a youtube app that works great. Need to watch a TV show? There's a free "ABC Viewer" app that also works great. Ditto Netflix, and Hulu will be (or maybe even already has) come out with an iPad app.

I have yet to run across any webpage where I noticed any problem by not having flash. Now, granted, I'm not a big web-surfer, so maybe my experience is unusual, but I don't think it's going to be far from what the average person will experience.

As for uploading photos to your iPad, you don't have to *email* them to yourself!!! That's totally ridiculous. Whoever said that must have no experience with the iPhone or iPod touch. These devices, _including the iPad_ are meant *to be synched with another computer*.

THE IPAD IS NOT A NETBOOK. IT IS NOT A LAPTOP. AND IT IS NOT A LAPTOP REPLACEMENT.

If you wanted it to be those things, you are going to be disappointed and you won't buy one. And that's fine. It wasn't meant for you.

So what IS the iPad if its not a netbook or laptop replacement?

The iPad is a very intimate, and very capable *mobile device*. It will (or already does) shine in the following areas:

1. Games.
2. eBooks.
3. Web surfing and email.
4. Remote screen / terminal applications.

Before I take these one at a time, let me just give you my first impressions of the iPad. Well, actually, my VERY first impressions at the store were underwhelming. I was like, "eh. I'm not sure I'll get one." I mean, they were positive impressions. I was really impressed with the sound (more on this in a minute) and with the screen (wow is that thing beautiful), but I wasn't feeling the whole "magical" and "revolutionary" vibe, to say the least. But I went back a couple more times and read about some of the future apps for the iPad and talked with my wife, and we decided to get one (more for her than for me). And so let me talk about my "first" impressions over these past two or three weeks or whatever its been.

First, I don't know how they did it, but the sound on this thing is FANTASTIC versus what you might expect. It's way better than most, if not all, laptops. Crazy good sound considering it's a flat thin metal and glass object with only three small rectangular holes for the sound to come out of. But however they did it, the sound is VERY respectable. Quite good enough to be enjoyable. It won't replace your home theater system or anything and you won't host a dance with it, but it does the audio job and does it well.

Second, this thing is FAST FAST FAST. Talk about RESPONSIVE! Again, I don't know how they did it, but it is far faster and graphically capable than it has any right to be in my opinion, based on my previous experiences and expectations. It's freaking crazy. And you can see this in the games that are already out for it. This thing is going to RULE the mobile gaming device scene. Rule. And the games are CHEAP! An "expensive" iPad game is $15, and most are under $10. Crazy. And the iTunes storefront setup and SDK allows for lots of small-time programers to get into the market, vs. the PC game scene which is mostly dominated by the big game companies.

Third, the screen is gorgeous, vibrant, and with a really good viewing angle range. Two people can easily share a moive watching experience on the iPad. And, WOW, do HD movies look good on this thing. As do TV shows streamed over the net.

Fourth, the iPad is an intimate device. You curl up with it. You can use it very well lying down with your head propped up. Or curled up in a chair. It's always on. It's lying around. You grab it and go and are surfing the web or checking email in an instant. It's incredibly responsive. Apple made a choice to go with the iPhone OS over OS X. I expected them to go with OS X and to make a laptop replacement. But they went the iPhone OS / mobile device route. And I think they made the right call.

When I started just using this device, that's when I started to feel the "magical" vibe. And to think there was something to the notion that the iPad is "revolutionary". A little bit. I think it is. I think it will be. And I think that all those people predicting its failure are suffering from a failure of imagination.

If you think of the iPad as a *terminal*--as a window, a portal, into your powerful desktop or laptop computer, then so many possibilities open up. There's already a proof of concept app out that allows you to move windows from your main computer onto you iPad. The main computer on your home network is the one running the program (for example, Photoshop) and doing the heavy lifting, but the USER INTERACTION and input happen through the iPad. And the communication happens over the network, over the wi-fi.

Apple is the first company to really change an OS to use a TOUCH UI. Previously this was not the case. Previously you just had a stylus replace the cursor/mouse. But working with your fingers and hands is _different_ than using a mouse or a pen. And the iPad is the fullest expression and utilization of that fact. It's just a different experience than a mouse-based UI. And until you've spent a few hours using it, you won't appreciate just how different it is, and you won't appreciate the potential of the touch UI. It's pretty amazing. My wife is a graphic designer, and one of the first apps we bought for the iPad was Sketchbook Pro. Cost a whopping $10 or so! And she immediately did a painting on the iPad, after only spending a couple minutes checking out the onscreen instructions. This thing is sensitive--there are a lot of touch sensors in it, and good extrapolation algorhythms.

The iPad IS going to be part of a mobile device revolution. It's going to be big. There are things to complain about. You can lament the lack of a camera or gripe about flash or third-party mutli-tasking, but this is missing the larger picture. Even if this device isn't for YOU, it is going to be right for a lot of people. Apple has a winner here. Just wait and see.


----------



## BentHeadTX (Apr 26, 2010)

I have been asking around from my Mac owning members of my family (they own stock also) to an incredibly annoying Mac fanboi PIA if they got an iPad. So far, nobody has taken a bite. It won't do what a laptop or netbook does so it is not needed. My fanboi buddy got one in hand and played around with it for awhile and put it back. He said his jail broken iPhone will do more and maybe he will think about it when they come out with revision 2. He does a lot of Skype with his buddies overseas so requires a camera. 

Considering the "my way or the highway" attitude of Apple lately...it is going to bite them were the sun don't shine. Steve Jobs hates stylus input so the iPad would be really a poor choice for education (do math problems with your finger?) The point of the iPhone/iPad is a business model of being closed with proprietary parts/dongles/software etc. Reminds me of Sony, they did that proprietary thing back in the 70's-90's and Samsung has passed them by. The iPad reminds me of the Mini Disc system in the same way--great idea that was dragged down by the proprietary ways of the creator and it cost way, way too much for the consumable portion of the device. 

The GOOD thing about the iPad was Apple's competitors wildly overestimated what it was. Windows responds with Phone7 and the dual 7" touch screen Courier, MSI/Asus are rolling out dual touch screen 7/10/12" dual touch screen netbooks running ARM processors (Tegra2) or Atom CPUs. Watch out for the avalanche of Android/Chrome OS tablets for $300 or so. 

I have no use for a 10" tablet, be it Apple, Dell or Android tablets. A dual 12" touch screen netbook? Sure! I can type on one screen and view it on the other as well as read books with the dual screens. Stretch the background over two 12" screens allow a portable solution to requiring a large screen. Fold it back up, throw it in the backpack and not worry about damage to the screens. Plug in the USB 3.0 port and it will transfer 1080P video through the port along with audio and data so a single USB 3.0 port will transfer everything to a hub to simplify it. Lay it on a charging pad, plug in a 3.0 and it becomes a desktop. A simple Atom D500 dual core with ION2 auto switching graphics will give me 1080P out so I can watch it on TV in hotel rooms. Lay it out flat and it is a giant touch screen--the one device that can do it all. Sure hope it accepts stylus inputs, can't write notes with a fat finger worth much...stylus and touch please! 

Now to see what Asus has up it's sleeve in June. My friend asked me if there is a smart phone that docs to a monitor and you can plug a USB hub in for a real keyboard/mouse/monitor desktop experience. Hmmmm... the new Dells will dock to a thing that has USB and HDMI out--maybe? A smart phone with a USB 3.0 and HDMI ports so your smart phone can be a laptop/netbook/tablet/desktop by plugging it into a USB hub? 

That would be magical!


----------



## StarHalo (Apr 26, 2010)

Thanks to Gizmodo, now we all know what Apple is going to do..


----------



## BentHeadTX (Apr 26, 2010)

Gotta love Woz!


----------



## js (May 3, 2010)

Apple's Thoughts on Flash

I don't know why Apple is accused of "my way or the highway" or of being "proprietary". This is nonsense. Thanks to Apple and Steve Jobs and their increasing music market share, songs on the iTunes store are DRM free. This is amazing, and welcome.

Similarly for OS X install discs. The Snow Leopard update disk, for example. Legally, it is only meant to upgrade Leopard, but it will do a full install. It isn't locked to one piece of hardware. And it was only $29.

So Apple wants to control it's hardware and operating system? So what? If that's proprietary, I say bring it on. More of that, please. It results in much greater stability and fewer bugs.



> Steve Jobs hates stylus input so the iPad would be really a poor choice for education (do math problems with your finger?)



You can buy a stylus for the iPad. Sketchbook Pro sells one (or the company that makes that program). What you can't do is just use any old plastic implement. It's a CAPACITIVE touch screen. But this doesn't mean that there isn't a stylus available. Why can't people do their homework before they make this disgusted statements?

Even engaget in their review of the iPad lamented the fact that the headphone port was at the "top" of the iPad, and they ridiculed the fact that you would then have to thread the headphone cable down the back and they were like "come on Apple! This is stupid." Ah, no. There is no "top" to the iPad. Just flip the thing 180 degrees if you want the port on the bottom, for crying out loud! More importantly, when you watch a movie, you do so in landscape, so the port would be at the bottom left or upper right. And yet this doesn't stop a major website from talking out of their rear-ends, apparently.

To say that the iPad "won't do what a laptop or netbook will do so it is not needed" is a gross generalization. For _some_ people this is certainly the case, and they are well and truly entitled to their opinion, and can spend their hard earned money how they see fit.

This is fine. The iPad is not a laptop and it's not a netbook. It won't appeal to everyone. But so what?

If the Kindle can sell well, despite being such a specifically targeted device, there's plenty of market for something like the iPad which can do so much more, as well as what the Kindle can do.

The App store on iTunes is the very opposite of closed and proprietary. It has opened up a HUGE market and presents an excellent opportunity for a great many programmers and small software companies. Apple only takes 30 percent and handles all the store front stuff. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about this sort of stuff knows this is a very generous deal, and is the reason why software for the iPhone and iPod Touch and iPad is so cheap and why there are so MANY apps, with more added every day.

So no one you know has gotten an iPad? So freaking what? If you think this means that the iPad is selling poorly and that Apple's demise is imminent, you are sadly mistaken. Apple has sold the better part of 1 million iPad's at this point. They sold *300,000* the first day, and many people were probably waiting for the 3G models to come out. I don't know what the exact sales figures are as I type this, but I suspect it won't be long before sales top 1 million. Maybe they already have.

And yet nay-sayers like to imply that the iPad is a failure. What the heck? That's just ridiculous. Compare iPad sales to Zune sales if you want to know what a "failure" looks like.

The iPad is an amazing mobile game platform, an amazing eBook reader, an amazing mobile web and email device, an amazing portable movie and video viewer, and a surprisingly powerful and flexible mobile device in general which will have a wealth of applications and uses once software developers have some more time to do their thing. And do it they will.

If you don't think the iPad is "magical" then don't freaking buy it. But don't pretend that the iPad is a failure and that your way is the only way and is the way that everyone is thinking.

It's not.

Clearly.


----------



## JCD (May 3, 2010)

js said:


> Apple's Thoughts on Flash



Interesting link. Thanks for posting.


----------



## Tempest UK (May 3, 2010)

js said:


> I don't know what the exact sales figures are as I type this, but I suspect it won't be long before sales top 1 million. Maybe they already have.



Indeed they have. In 28 days. 

Regards,
Tempest


----------



## gorn (May 3, 2010)

I picked up an iPad. I waited and thought hard before I bought it. Then I decided to get one because the idea of what it was was just cool. I use it at night when something pops into my head and I want an answer right away. I used to use a Toshiba 12 inch tablet laptop before the iPad. 

You can not compare Apples touch screens with any other. Apple just blows them out of the water. My wife is just getting comfortable with using computers. She loves the iPad. The iPad isn't a netbook and never pretended to be one. I miss having flash and normal usb ports. The keyboard is still strange to me but I can buy a bluetooth keyboard if I ever intend to do lots of typing on it. Printing is a pain in the butt. Other than printing pictures via an iphone app it means emailing stuff to a real computer.

Apple is and always has been proprietary with their hardward. So was Packard Bell and IBM. It worked for Apple, no so much for the others. All in all I really enjoy the iPad. But that doesn't mean that I won't be buying an HP Slate when they hit the market. I just hope the new generation of tablets can have a touch interface that is at least as nice as Apple. 

Am I an Apple fanboy that will go on a mouth foaming rant becaue someone doesn't like Apple? No. I wouldn't own an Apple laptop. I do however own an iPhone and iPods. I mostly really like them dispite how much I hate iTunes.


----------



## StarHalo (Sep 1, 2010)

New iPod Nano announced today:






16GB of storage space with touch screen display, FM tuner, and pedometer, with a clip. Now featuring the Shake-To-Shuffle feature (shake the player to change songs), VoiceOver (reads aloud what you're touching on the screen, so you don't even have to look) and Display rotation (so it doesn't matter which orientation you prefer). And it still retains the standard iPod plug interface; any aftermarket plug-n-play device you have will now have a touch screen interface. Delivery will begin next week.


----------



## wyager (Sep 1, 2010)

That new nano is incredibly cool-but I already have a 3rd gen touch. Plus, they gave the shuffle its buttons back  That was a major problem before. The new touch is awesome too, they gave it one of those super high density retina displays. I've never used a device with as many pixels/in^2 as the iphone 4. It's pretty cool.


----------



## greenlight (Sep 1, 2010)

I knew they were going to make that.


----------



## wyager (Sep 1, 2010)

greenlight said:


> I knew they were going to make that.



who didn't :shrug:
It's still beautiful :nana:


----------



## tiktok 22 (Sep 2, 2010)

Did the new Touch get an FM tuner like the Nano????


----------



## StarHalo (Sep 2, 2010)

tiktok 22 said:


> Did the new Touch get an FM tuner like the Nano????



I don't see it mentioned.

All the new stuff is already up on their site, Apple.com


----------



## StarHalo (Sep 2, 2010)

Just noticed, the new Nano has a 220 pixel-per-inch display; it's a semi-Retina display..


----------



## wyager (Sep 2, 2010)

The fact that apple left out bluetooth for so long and is still leaving out FM radio annoys me... the wireless interface chipset on the ipod touch supports wifi, bluetooth, AND fm radio.... the hardware is there, apple just doesn't want to use it. Probably to increase itunes sales.


----------



## LEDninja (Sep 2, 2010)

I win some, I lose some.

Apples earbuds don't fit my ears so I can not buy the buttonless stick shuffle. I had to get 2*1GB shuffles as my local stores do not have any old style 2GB left. (My 2GB Hip Street MP3 player died and Walmart had discontinued them)
Glad the old style shuffle is back. Just 2GB! Guess Apple is trying to push people towards the new Nano.

I got an old 8GB Nano that looks like a mini iPod Classic. The 16 GB stick style was just released but the screen orientation was all wrong for watching videos when docked. Got by by crunching the videos/movies to 320*240 resolution. (Official Mamma Mia the Movie off iTunes store 853*354 is 1.21GB, works out to 320*135 on the iPod screen; my 320*240 version handbraked off the full screen DVD is only 416 MB.)
It does not look like the new Nano supports video at all.

The iPod Touch is out of my price range. With the hi-res screen I will have to recompile my videos/movies back to 480*640 or 853*640 which means a 32GB Touch holds the same amount of videos as my 8GB Nano. To hold more means a 64 GB Touch. Sigh.

-

But its 240*240. The old Nanos are 320*240 which will support 4:3 video.


StarHalo said:


> Just noticed, the new Nano has a 220 pixel-per-inch display; it's a semi-Retina display..


----------



## StarHalo (Sep 3, 2010)

LEDninja said:


> Apples earbuds don't fit my ears so I can not buy the buttonless stick shuffle.



The buds I recommend are these Sonys, available for a whole $3.75 on Amazon; they're far superior to the stock Apple set, and have audio quality that's indistinguishable from the old over-the-head compact headphones from a decade ago. They come with foam covers that make them fit even very large ears.

And I do hope they eventually return to the widescreen format with video playback, that'd be pretty awesome to walk down the street with your favorite movie playing on your lapel..


----------



## LEDninja (Sep 3, 2010)

The problem with the tie-clip style shuffle is the volume control is on the earbud wiring forcing the users to use Apple's earbuds or in-ear phones ($99USD) that has the control buttons built in.

My problem is too small ear canals not too big. I am using G-Cube in-ear phones. Sound quality depends on how well the ear gels seals against the ear. I got the small gel on the left side and the medium gel on the right side.

Did try a couple of bagfuls of assorted phones from DX.
Some have a shorter wire on the left side allowing excess wire to hang down the left side instead of bouncing on the tummy.
Others have a loop just behind the plug so the phone can be hung up when not in use. No more tangled wires.
They come with one size ear gels and often very small ones. I did mention I already have small ear canals.
Some styles does not work for me.


----------



## StarHalo (Sep 3, 2010)

LEDninja said:


> The problem with the tie-clip style shuffle is the volume control is on the earbud wiring forcing the users to use Apple's earbuds



Ah, you're right, forgot about that.

And I'm not a fan of the in-ear phones, they're tricky to work with and cut off exterior noise completely, which means you can't listen to music in any situation where you need to be aware of your environment. Buds are completely transparent but still well above-average sound quality-wise, and the price is nice..


----------



## StarHalo (Feb 28, 2012)

March 7th:


----------



## bshanahan14rulz (Feb 28, 2012)

I lol'd at this: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/apps-apes-orangutans-using-ipads-paint-video-chat-174457692.html
also, another long awaited release,





With that said, I have to also say that Apple has some of the nicest looking and well-designed hardware. You can even see it on the board level.


----------



## orbital (Jul 26, 2017)

+


*Huge Foxconn production facility in Wisconsin is a done deal

.. 8k & 5G tech / medical applications / 1000 acres / **$10,000,000,000 investment
tens of thousands of jobs directly & indirectly



*


----------



## StarHalo (Jul 27, 2017)

iPod Shuffle and Nano have been discontinued as of today. The iPod Touch is now the only dedicated music player Apple sells, unless you count the [1 playlist, 2GB/250 track max] Watch.


----------



## Thetasigma (Jul 27, 2017)

StarHalo said:


> iPod Shuffle and Nano have been discontinued as of today. The iPod Touch is now the only dedicated music player Apple sells, unless you count the [1 playlist, 2GB/250 track max] Watch.



Getting hard to find good media players that aren't just stripped cell phones...
Something to be said for a dedicated media player designed for music playback without all the other crap, and that died with the iPod Classic.


----------



## Strintguy (Jul 29, 2017)

StarHalo, thanks for,the heads-up, I was able to buy one of the last shuffle and nano the store had. I love the small off-the-grid players.


----------



## StarHalo (Aug 2, 2017)

Thetasigma said:


> Getting hard to find good media players that aren't just stripped cell phones...
> Something to be said for a dedicated media player designed for music playback without all the other crap, and that died with the iPod Classic.



Very true for car use - connecting a phone via cable means now navigator audio mutes the audio, who knows what happens if someone calls, etc, whereas a media device is just a drive full of music.

Lots of iPod Classics over on eBay, but be aware that because of the movie _Baby Driver_, demand and prices are quite a bit higher than usual right now.


----------



## StarHalo (Sep 10, 2017)

iPhone X not only recognizes you by your face, but has animated emojis that follow your facial expressions, which you can then send in a message..


----------

