# Ultimate shop vac?



## milkyspit (Jun 8, 2004)

I'm looking to buy a shop vac but have no money. There, I said it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif

Let me start by mentioning that I abaolutely HATE those big, fat canister-style "shop vac" devices that you can buy at Sears or Home Depot. They're huge, hard to move around a small shop, poorly built, and only mediocre in their cleaning performance, at least my own experience. So I'm looking for a viable alternative.

Here are the general criteria for my ultimate shop vac:

1. Great suction!
2. Sucks up pretty much anything: metal shards, pebbles, plaster dust, mouse hair, whatever.
3. Runs well over a rough concrete floor without being ripped to shreds.
4. Output is filtered so all that dust isn't spewed into the air. Our whole family has asthma! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif
5. Easy to maneuver around a smallish workshop, through narrow corridors, etc.
6. Easy maintenance.
7. Inexpensive! So when I completely destroy the thing, I won't feel too guilty. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Does ANYTHING exist out there that might meet most (preferably all) of these requirements? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif


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## LitFuse (Jun 8, 2004)

I just bought a new shop-vac at Sears, but it's one of the larger (16 gallon) models. I think a smaller unit might fit the bill for you though. They have some "low-profile" units that roll really nice without falling over. They do offer several "HEPA" filters that are supposed to really make them run clean. I don't know what you consider "cheap" but the aftermarket filter was around $30. The vacs themselves go on sale quite often, and if your in the "Craftsman Club" you can get another 10% off the sale price. I never buy anything at Sears that isn't on sale.


Peter


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## Eugene (Jun 8, 2004)

The shop vac brand has a tall skinny one and a couple makers have smaller ones, Dewalt has a small one that works off AC or a drill battery for example. Anything not a normal big bucket style is going to cost more $ though. When you get away from the average product you have to fork over the $. Another option might be a dust collector like wood dorkers use.


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## MoonRise (Jun 9, 2004)

What do you want to clean up? General purpose shop-vac stuff?

Wait for a Sears sale (like now for Father's Day!), then get the low-boy oval-ish Craftsman 16 gallon 6.5hp (hah!) detachable motor wet-dry vac for about $100. It sucks up just about anything. Rolls pretty easily too. But it _is_ kind of big. And loud.

Next, replace the filter with the Gore-tex Clean-Stream (?) filter for about $30. That filter is durable, can be used wet or dry, and filters the fine stuff pretty well.

Maintenance? Just empty the canister and clean off the filter. Do it outside, because there WILL be dust involved. You can take the detachable motor, use it as a blower, and blow almost all the dust off the pleats of the Gore-tex filter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I use mine frequently. Best 'weird' use was to connect four extension wands (stand-off distance was important!) and then use the vac to suck in a few hundred yellow jackets as they came back to the nest behind the siding. The buggers had set-up in a spot where I couldn't get spray to get to them, and I had a friend helping me do some remodeling who is allergic to stings. 

If you want quiet and true HEPA with suction, maybe you want a dedicated vac system that vents to the outside. But that is a fixed installation and would also be more bucks.


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## milkyspit (Jun 9, 2004)

I face three typical scenarios:

1. I'm working in the cellar, sitting on the stairs and wielding my trusty Dremel to cut down plastic parts, or grind down metal parts. Or even doing a pile of sawing and drilling. All of which leave piles of material sitting in all the nooks-n-crannies of the rough concrete floor. A brush would only make most of this stuff airborne, which is not a good idea in our house. But I can't leave it on the floor because my wife will inevitably go down there barefoot to start a load of wash or something. I don't want to be responsible for aluminum shards lodged in her feet! Or epoxy dust in her lungs, either. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

2. In the garage, it gets downright filthy over time. A sweep broom does a decent job but leaves so much dust in the air that there's a HAZE. Bad for the asthma, very bad! So every once in a while, I need to vacuum up the work of the soot sprites and make things seem clean again.

3. God forbid, one of my kids makes a huge mess, like dumping a container of flour, or shattering a drinking glass on the kitchen floor. This particular need MIGHT be met by the very nice HEPA vacuum cleaner we use for our general house cleaning, but if it's a really major spill I'd just as soon let a more down-n-dirty shop vac tackle it, and keep the household vac for more typical cleaning chores.

Incidentally (off topic a bit), I can vouch from experience that spilling a packet of hot chocolate powder, then vacuuming it makes the output of your vacuum cleaner smell really nice for months afterward. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## MoonRise (Jun 9, 2004)

Get the Sears Craftsman 16 gallon low profile (oval-ish) detachable motor wet-dry vac. About $100 on sale, 10% less with the Craftsman card.

Get the Gore-tex filter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I love that thing!

It will handle all three of your typical scenarios OK. Pick up the big pieces of broken glass first, and empty the vac after you're done so you don't reach into a pile of dust trying to grab the tool you just vacuumed up and then get cut by some glass shards.

Instead of sitting on the stairs into the basement, at least stick a board across a pair of saw-horses in a corner of the basement. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Oh, Dremels usually churn out lots of fine dust, grab the hearing protectors and the eye protection and rig up the vac hose so that it is sucking right next to the workpiece while you Dremel away. This way the vac gets most of the dust right away.


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## kitelights (Jun 9, 2004)

My GF's son did quite a bit of research on them before he settled on a RIDGID from Home Depot. I was so impressed with it that I recently got a smaller one and have been very happy with it. I ended up with a 12 gal that was $70, but got it on sale for $40.


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## NeonLights (Jun 9, 2004)

I've got one of the newer Sears Craftsman low prifile shop-vacs and a friend has an older model, similar power rating. Mine is significantly quieter than my friend's, I'd also recommend one of the newer lower Sears vacs.

-Keith


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## rycen (Jun 9, 2004)

The rigid and craftsman are made by the same company.If these vacs dont blow up the first time you turn it on it will last a good long time.I have a craftsman that is at least 10 years old and still goiung strong.Here is a little tip:when picking up fine material, metal plaster, dust, etc. put a little bit of water in the bottom of the tub, just enough to cover the bottom. That will cut down dust in the air.


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## gadget_lover (Jun 9, 2004)

I have the small Craftsman wet/dry. It's 2 gallons and has no wheels. It has a handle and is carried to where you want it. The hose is rather cheap, the standard plastic kind that's only about 2 inches across. 

It's adequate for most small spills and for sucking up the dry shavings from my lathe, saws, etc. I've sucked up liquids with no problems. Suction is important for liquids. Air speed is more important for dirt/dust/debris. This small one has fairly good air flow. Take it from an ex door-to-door vacuum salesman.

I also have a big 16 gallon unit with a big hose for big jobs. I also sue it when I want to catch all the dust I can from the table saw or chop saw.

Daniel


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## HarryN (Jun 16, 2004)

Scott, at the risk of stating the obvious, you need power. It is way too easy to under estimate what a real clean up needs, of course, I use mine in the yard.

Get the highest horsepower rated vac you can afford, and don't worry about the drum size, - get a long hose. I have a home depot rigid, and it is nearly the strongest, but still barely enough - in fact not enough, for cleaning up leaves in the yeard.

$ 100 is a good target.


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## milkyspit (Jun 16, 2004)

HarryN, you're right about that, as long as I won't end up overloading my electrical circuits. I once had an apartment in an old building, above a doctor's office, and whenever the cleaning lady started to vacuum, she blew the circuit that my computer was plugged into. Not good for a programmer! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Anyway, wish I didn't have to spend so much, but it looks like $60 is about the bare minimum, and $100 is a more realistic target. Dangit. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif Better sell a couple flashlights. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif

Incidentally, I was also thinking about the effect of the hose diameter on suction. I'm no aeronautics engineer, but it seems to me that a more narrow hose would generate greater suction due to (for lack of more technical terminology) less cross section across which to spread the amount of vacuum created. Of course, a smaller hose also means larger pieces of debris can't be picked up and/or might end up clogging the hose, so maybe it's a tradeoff.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


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## McGizmo (Jun 16, 2004)

Scott,
The vacuum that I'd recommend would cost you even more but this thing really SUCKS! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Actually they have come down in price since I got mine. I am referring to a Fein vacuum. They can be had with HEPA filters if you need but this vacuum with a standard filter can be used on nasty stuff like sanding sheet rock without it blowing half the sucked in particles out the exaust end! I did a quick google and found one site that has some interesting background on Fein. There are a few tools I have run accros through the years that struck me as being well above the typical and tools that did a great job at what they were designed for. Since these tools are still providing great service to me, it may be that other manufacturers have caught up and even exceeded them but I kind of doubt it. The Fein vacuum as well as their triangle sander are two tools that fit in this "great tool" list of mine. A couple other winners that I can think of off hand are the Milwaakee (sp) 1/2" hole shooter with Keyless Chuck and removable cord, the Bosche varible speed and variable other stuff ( /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) jig saw, Sandvik carbide scrapers, Knipex Cobra and Plier Wrench and so on.....


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## milkyspit (Jun 16, 2004)

Don, thanks dude! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif That looks like quite a machine, although I'm going in the wrong direction budgetwise. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif It might end up being the one I get! I assume you're referring to the smallest size model for my particular situation?

On that same website, I also saw something called the Love-Less Ash Drywall Vac (click for link to the exact page), which looked interesting. It claims NO dust blow out and a dual microfilter system that can be cleaned without opening the canister. Also can apparently drain liquids with a knob at the bottom of the unit, which I could see as potentially handy though not critical. Anyone know about this brand?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


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## gadget_lover (Jun 17, 2004)

Keep in mind the distinction between suction and airflow.

Airflow will sweep the debris into the hose. The more airflow the better. Suction will be what pulls that clog of leaves through the hose when they obstruct the air flow. You need both. A large hose is better for minimizing clogs when you suck up the scraps of 2x2 that you cut but requires a bigger fan and motor to keep the airflow up.

I'm always amazed at commercials that show a vacuum holding up a bowling ball. I'd only be impressed if it was sucking it through the hose.

I have to second the hepa filter comments. Exhaust dust can be a hassle.

An efficient fan can frequently move more material with fewer amps/horsepower. The Electrolux brand used to made a big deal out the the multi-stage turbine that they used in order to move as much air as possible while providing a fairly high vacuum.

Boy, I'm glad I now longer sell those suckers /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Danile


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## MoonRise (Jun 17, 2004)

re: the vacuum-n-bowling ball demo

It's not all that tough to do. You'll need a vac that can generate just a few psi suction pressure and it will be easier if you can get a good seal between the bowling ball and the 'attachment'. Notice how they usually have a funnel-thing on the bowling ball? That's so that the suction pressure has a large area to work on. For a 16 lb bowling ball and a 6 inch diameter funnel, the vac only has to generate about a 0.6 psi suction to hold up the ball. Yes, I AM an engineer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Standard wet-dry vac hose is 2 inch diameter, the little ones may use 1.25 diameter hose. Woodworking dust collectors usually start at 4 inch diameter lines and go up in size from there, but they are usually going for more airflow and not so much suction pressure. The wet-dry vac will flow around 150 cfm while a small two-port portable dust collector will do ~500 cfm and the bigger ones will do ~1000+ cfm. A small home air-compressor would generate maybe 5-10 cfm at 90 psi.

Scott, you missed last week's Craftsman sale. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif The vac was on sale, plus the Craftsman Club 10% discount, brought the price down to I think ~$90. You'd still need the Gore-tex CleanStream replacement filter (~$30). Not a bad deal. 

Fein tools are usually /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif. So is Bosch stuff. And the Sandvik carbide scraper. And others ...

Good stuff costs more up front, but is more of a pleasure to use and makes the job easier. Think Surefire or Arc, versus $1 plastic dim flashlight.


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## gadget_lover (Jun 17, 2004)

Hey moonrise, are there a lot of loses from the standard hoses that have that corregated look? I understand that laminatr flow will come into play somewhere, but it always seemed that smooth bore hoses would be more efficient.


I do know that my old (real old) sears vacuum with a smooth hose never clogged, whereas my new one will occasionally have debris caught in the hose.

Daniel


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## MoonRise (Jun 17, 2004)

re: flow

All else being equal, a smooth wall pipe or hose would have less flow losses than a corrugated hose. Tight bends in the hose would probably mess up the flow more though.


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## HarryN (Jun 18, 2004)

Hi Scott

As far as hose size, there is the practical and the theoretical.

The practical aspect of vacuuming, is that you need to entrain your material into a high speed air flow. If the air speed is insufficient (regardless of pressure drop), then the material will drop out in the hose.

If the hose diameter is too small, then it will clog from clumping and interactions with the hose wall, (almost)regardless of air speed.

If you are sucking up water, you need a short, narrow hose in order to maintain high velocity, or you need to run the inlet in a way which allows a lot of air, and a little water to enter at a time. (either is ok)

If you are picking up shavings, sawdust, Al fragments, garage dirt, etc, you need a (2 in or larger) hose to prevent clogging. For this, a hose up to 10 feet can still work.

Vacuuming is not the inverse of water flow in a pipe. (much lower pressure differentials) Keep the pipe mostly full of air, not material. 

As far as exhaust, this is a shop vac, not a home sweeper. My home sweeper is a hepa filter unit (allergy management), but my (rigid) shop vac is exhausted to the outdoors.

Also, some are quieter than others, a big plus.


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## Eugene (Jun 18, 2004)

I need to get a quieter one. I hooked my old one up to a random orbital sander and its louder than the sander.


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## milkyspit (Jun 18, 2004)

Okay guys, I signed up for the Craftsman Club like some of you suggested, by calling their toll free number. Guess what? They say I'll get my membership card (including the all-important member number needed to get the additional 10% discount) in *6 to 8 weeks*. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

WHY!?!


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## hideo (Jun 18, 2004)

I've been a fan of the Gore filters (and raincoats and waterproof boots for some time now)--I use one of two Gore filters on my cheapo $29 shopvac (the filters cost more than the vac) and lightly brush or hose them off when both need it--the pleats really do increase the time before the suction starts to fall off ...

especially nice for vacuuming ash and the smaller particulates that you just know will clog your lungs up tight if they pass thru the vacuum /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sick.gif

hideo


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## Sparticus (Jul 7, 2004)

I have a few things to add to this topic. 
*QUESTION*
What is the WORST thing you can pick up with a Shop-Vac?
*Answer*
Drywall dust of course

I am a drywaller, and this question of the ultimate shopvac has perplexed me too for quite some time. the usual lifespan of one of MY Vacuums, is 1-2 years. After this time, the dust has gotten into the motor, (no matter how good the filter is) and ruined it. So once again I am in the market for a GOOD shop-vac. The difference for me is, I am willing to spend more than $100 and am quite willing to spend 2 or 3 hundred for a GREAT one. However I am VERY dissapointed that the 2-3 hundred dollar vacuums dont vary too much from the cheepos. The filter systems are the same, which to me means im buying a $250 vacuum every 2 years.
Never buy a RIGID anything. Contrary to the commercials, the Pro's do NOT use them, and I know NONE who do.


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## McGizmo (Jul 7, 2004)

Sparticus,

You might want to challenge Fein with your requirements. I think you should consider a HEPPA filter if you haven't included this in your program in the past. For you, it relly will boil down to a useable service life I would guess. The Fein that I have was $500 or more but I don't think they are making this model any more. Their prices have gone down, presumably to meet market pressure but whether the quality or serevice life has been cut, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

EDIT: Welcome BTW! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Your first post is on a thread that sucks! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif Hopefully you will do better in the future. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## gadget_lover (Jul 7, 2004)

When you look for the HEPA equipped vac, check out where it goes in the air stream;

Some HEPA filters are prominently placed on the exhaust of the vacuum. This is after the air has already passed through the impeller.

For maximum life in an abrasive dust environment, you want the airflow to go like this:
intake -> collection bag -> HEPA -> impeller ->exhaust baffles.

You also want a seperate fan (and filter) to cool the motor so that the reduced airflow though a clogged bag/filter don't cause the motor to heat. Many shop vacs use the exhaust to cool the motor. 

Daniel


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## Wingerr (Jul 14, 2004)

I'm looking into one of those Cleanstream filters; seems like it'd work really well. If you dunk it in water, would it really hold it out completely? That's something I'd like to see; the website says it'll keep the float from tripping, so you have to be careful not to overfill the vacuum when sucking up liquids.
They specify it to be good for drywall dust and ash, so it should prove handy, as I've clogged my Shop Vac up quickly with that stuff.
Is the Craftsman card good for Craftsman stuff only? Does it give you a discount on purchases only during specified sale periods, or at all times? I've gotten a bunch of those cards, but tossed them because I didn't really see any benefit from having them. Wondering if it'd be applicable for the $24.99 Cleanstream filter they sell.


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## HarryN (Aug 22, 2004)

I just did a mod on my 6.5 hp peak hp rated rigid that makes it work a lot better. I am in the middle of replacing my yard, and use the shop vac to help dig holes / reach sprinkler pipe. The vac kept plugging up where the hose goes into the vac, so I cut this end off at approx. 45 degrees - now it willl take a much larger dirt clod and vacuum performance is better as well.


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## milkyspit (Aug 22, 2004)

Your vacuum *digs holes*? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif WOW! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Nice mod! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## gadget_lover (Aug 22, 2004)

That's one vacuuum that you don't want anywhere near a sensitive part. Ouch!

I can see the value of vacuuming up the dirt as you are digging. Making the hole is easier than keeping the dirt from sliding back into it.


Daniel


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## zapper (Aug 23, 2004)

Sparticus, to keep your motor longer than 1-2 years there's one criteria to keep in mind: How is the motor cooled? If it is cooled with the air that the vacuum is producing then those fine particles will eventually end up in the motor. The impeller has to be isolated from the motor in it's own housing like the impeller and fan on a turbo. When you do choose one like this, put a piece of foam, like the pre filter in the canister, over the motor fan to keep the airborne dust out of there as well. Believe it or not, a Kirby home vacuum has this type of setup and the one my parents have is going on 30 years. It's been used on quite a few remodeling jobs and shop vac use. Not what I would recommend for you but similar design.


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## HarryN (Aug 25, 2004)

You are right Gadget - when you want to make a narrow deep hole, it is not so hard to loosen the dirt (well, except for the adobe clay we have of course) but getting the dirt out is a challenge, esp if it is mixed in with the PVC pipe. I have pretty good luck with using a spade to loosen, then vacuuming out the loose dirt. God, please let me finish this yard so I can play with flashlights again !!


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## mahoney (Aug 25, 2004)

Sorry I missed this thread back in June, but the Loveless Ash Co. Drywall Vacs are the best vac for the money, IMO. I just ordered 2 more of them for my workplace to replace the last of our Shop-Vac brand units. The felt filters are easy to clean, washable, and almost no dust gets through the outer filter to the inner layer. You can use a pre-filter bag that contains the dust, making emptying the vac very easy and clean and adding a third layer of filtration. We usually just let the dust go in the canister though. 
The motor cooling fan draws in room air, not air from the impeller air stream, so the motor should last. 
We sometimes use them on drywall dust, but mostly on sanding dust from MDF which is almost as fine. We have the vacs hooked up to the sanders whenever we are sanding and they work great as long as you jiggle the filter cleaning lever about every half hour. Even with somewhat clogged filters, there is still a lot of suction, so much so that the students sometimes manage to fill the vacs completely (and I do mean completely!) full of sawdust. At about $200 it's not the cheapest vac, but it's still a bargain compared to some of the higher end models from Fein. And it's made in the US by some nice folks from Utah who know a thing or two about cleaning up messes.


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## Ken_McE (Aug 29, 2004)

*Electric Leaf Vac*

Ecept for the "no dust" clause, an electric leaf blower/vacuum would meet your specs. Perhaps you could mount the unit outside and just run in a hose?


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## milkyspit (Aug 29, 2004)

*Re: Electric Leaf Vac*

Ken, that's actually an intriguing angle on things. Hmm... gotta think about that one.

Of course, the neighbors will probably get really pissed off at the noise! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif


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## turbodog (Aug 29, 2004)

*Re: Electric Leaf Vac*

Some of the craftsman vacs have a auxilary exhaust muffler. Suction is reduced but is still enough for most jobs. It just slips in and out of the exhaust port. I don't see why you couldn't design a filter for the vac and place it in the same location. Take an extension wand and find an automotive filter (round style) that could slip over it and secure it with a compression strap or something. Good filtration, noise reduction, easily removable, cheap...


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## NewBie (Aug 30, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*
Okay guys, I signed up for the Craftsman Club like some of you suggested, by calling their toll free number. Guess what? They say I'll get my membership card (including the all-important member number needed to get the additional 10% discount) in *6 to 8 weeks*. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

WHY!?! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you sign up for a Home Depot card or Sears, and stack discounts????


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## milkyspit (Aug 30, 2004)

NewBie, I got it sorted out. They actually sent the discount card in a week or two. Why they tell you 6-8 weeks, I really don't know! All they need to do is generate a unique number, after all, which could even be done in real time and provided by phone or online. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif


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