# Have Emerson lost the plot?



## strideredc (Jan 7, 2008)

Just wanted to see what you guys (and girls) think about Emerson knives replacing the non locking liner with stainless steel instead of using titanium?

For me I think it’s a bad practice and cheapens a good brand.

I have been using Emerson knives for ages and have liked the styles and the build and am really put off with the thought of a half steel and half ti handle.

The reason for this is the rising cost of ti, I would say just put up the cost?

I wonder how much the side liner of an Emerson knife ‘REALY’ costs $5, $10, I would say less???

I was going to post this on USN and then remembered if I did I would be banned in 2 seconds flat for deviating from the status quo…


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## RA40 (Jan 8, 2008)

I've got a stainless liner from another maker. I forget what the steel actually is, however, it is quite robust. Having been made in the later 80's, it is still locking at a nice point. The 6-4 Ti I use, after a long service life, I peen the lock to adjust the engagement point. Both these knives have seen heavy use though. 
If I had a choice, I'd prefer Ti.

If the buyer is willing to offset the additional materials cost, I don't see why it can't be made for all Ti.


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## Raoul_Duke (Jan 8, 2008)

I hvent bought any Emersons.

Main reason is that on a right handed knife, they grind a left hand chisel grind.:duh2:

Emailed them a number of times to see if they would consider doing the grinds on the right hand side, and the only responce I got ( finally after too many attempts) was that it was for cosmetic reasons as that is the side photo's are taken on 

Chisel grinds should be on the "right hand side" for a right handed knife.

Any company that wont talk openly to the end line user aren't worth it IMHO.

they should take a leaf out of Spyderco's book, on how to treat customers.

Unanswered emails is just plain rude, I emailed them on other topics and Ideas, and they just went unanswered.

On the Ti scale issue, Why not charge more? there are still people willing to buy them ( supprisingly to me)


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## dano (Jan 8, 2008)

Ti costs have skyrocketed to the point where it's becoming cost prohibitive for a company like EKI or Benchmade can buy sufficient quanities to make the large number of knives offered with Ti.

I'm not a huge fan of Emerson's stuff, but do own a CQC-13. 

Benchmade's Dejavoo uses a 1/2 Ti/SS set-up.

I wonder who the Ti shortage will eventually effect Chris Reeve (Sebenza) or Mission Knives, down the line...

-dan


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## Chronos (Jan 8, 2008)

Is there a major difference functionally on a production knife between Ti and SS? I honestly don't know, but I would doubt it (semi-educated guess).

Now on a custom or semi-custom, I'd think the knifemaker could charge a premium for the Ti linerlock. 

Knowing just a little about Emerson, it seems that they are sure this change will not cause any structural integrity issues in their knives. Given their reputation I'd tend to agree with them unless proven otherwise.

Didn't this change go into effect earlier in 2007? If it did, I'd think we'd have heard if this caused any structural issues by now.


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## strideredc (Jan 8, 2008)

‘Emailed them a number of times to see if they would consider doing the grinds on the right hand side, and the only response I got ( finally after too many attempts) was that it was for cosmetic reasons as that is the side photo's are taken on ’

Really, that’s crazy. I did have a cqc7 and I liked the knife but I couldn’t get on with the grind at all and it’s defiantly (imho) on the wrong side!


‘I wonder who the Ti shortage will eventually effect Chris Reeve (Sebenza) or Mission Knives, down the line...’

If this is the true reason then it will be interesting to see what happens???


‘Knowing just a little about Emerson, it seems that they are sure this change will not cause any structural integrity issues in their knives. Given their reputation I'd tend to agree with them unless proven otherwise.’

I bet you are 100% right and in fact ss is probably stronger than ti in this application. One thing is that is not as rust resistant as ti. This will only matter in the extreme end use of the knife and who (being totally honest) buys a $200 knife and leaves it in a bucket of salt water?

My point was I thought it was somehow cheapening the brand and what used to be ‘the best materials they could offer’ are now being replaced by a cheaper alternative

Also I just looked at the website and saw they are still saying ti and not ti/ss?

*Handles*
Black G-10 epoxy / glass laminate 
*Liners*
Aerospace grade Titanium
*Blade*
154 CM
*Finish*
Black Finish
*Grind*
Conventional V Grind

*Overall Length*
9.5
*Blade Length*
4.0
*Blade Thickness*
.125 in.
*Hardness*
57-59 RC


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## HoopleHead (Jan 8, 2008)

thats why you should just go for the HD-7!


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## RA40 (Jan 8, 2008)

I haven't bought Ti in a long time having stocked up for my uses. Good deals at the time was ~$11 a pound, now it is 5-6X last I heard. For as many knives that come off the production line, that will be a significant increase. 

Yes, the chisel grind was done for cosmetics as many of my knife making buddies have stated in the past. Simply, the logo doesn't seem to appeal to many when on the flat side. When you buy a custom, it's no big deal though. Personally that blade shape aesthetically looks fine in a traditional bevel as done for centuries by the Japanese sword makers.


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## ErickThakrar (Jan 8, 2008)

This is hardly the first time, and likely not the last, that Emerson has made decisions about their knife designs based on either economics or aesthetics. Personally, I'm a lot more concerned about functionality, but maybe that's just me.


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## RedLED (Jan 14, 2008)

*Ernest Emerson has some explaining to do!*

I have a real problem with them still advertising the titanium liners. This is totally unethical. People have a right to know they are not paying for titanium.

Also, it took them almost a year to start to tell only some people in the knife comunity.

I no longer trust Emerson. This is lying about the materials of your product.

I agree that if you ever posted this on USN, It would explode!

I will not buy anymore Emerson knives. I feel bad because I used to love them.

Very sneaky, I wonder if the people he deals with in the military community would like to know what he is doing? Just look what he is doing to people serving in the US armed forces, they are being ripped off.

This will go down bigger than what Mick Strider lied about.


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## RedLED (Jan 14, 2008)

Also, I have a problem with them telling us tanium costs too much for his his knife liners that soldiers lives may depend on, then he has the nerve to make guitar picks out of it. Guitar picks?

And guitars? Come on...


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## carrot (Jan 14, 2008)

Ti is getting more expensive, lately. That means E. Emerson will have to either increase the prices of his knives, or take a smaller cut. '

I don't see any problem with using stainless for liners. The Spyderco Military uses stainless liners and (some older models only have a liner on one side!) and there are some that have been in service for 10+ years without fail. Don't think the change from Ti to SS means much besides bling factor and added corrosion resistance... which I've yet to have a problem with.

There are definitely a few EKI's ground on both sides. The CQC Snubby, for one. Really nice, solid knife, with excellent ergos. It's on my list...


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## jbosman1013 (Jan 14, 2008)

personally I am happy he is switching I keep having problems with my TI locks, like sticking so bad you need you need a butter knife to pry it back or after just getting it back from service the lock travels over 75% of the back of the blade and that only took two weeks of use. I never had any problems like this with a SS liner.


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## carrot (Jan 14, 2008)

The EKI lock-side liner is still Ti. 

I have no problems with the only Ti lock I have. The Sebenza's lock doesn't have any galling problems at all.


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## Zackerty (Jan 14, 2008)

I do not know Ernest at all...
Replacing Ti with SS is no big deal to me, as the weight difference is slight, the corrosion resistance is no sweat, and the 'thrill" of Ti is not an issue to me.

Ti is in short supply, and SS is easier to machine, grind, drill, mill etc.
His reasoning? No idea...

I guess what he should have done, is tell his customers what he decided to do, and even drop the price a teeny amount, if only to please...

And yes, Spyderco has the best customer relations around...


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## Art Vandelay (Jan 14, 2008)

Why would titanium be better? Don't titanium liners have galling problems?


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## ErickThakrar (Jan 15, 2008)

Not if they're made right.


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## Telkin (Jan 15, 2008)

I had a Super Commander made in 2007. Took it for camping and for 3 days it was exposed to the elements. I thought nothing of it until I returned home and found slight rusting on one side of the liner. Couldn't understand it as at the time of purchase I thought as always that it was Ti. 

Turns out SS if exposed to the elements could rust after all. I've mostly cleaned it up with some WD40 as I stripped it apart but yes it was disappointing to me that no where was my Super Commander listed as having SS. Not terribly upset but definitely not satisfying.


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## ErickThakrar (Jan 15, 2008)

Ok, for some reason, I must have missed this, but what basically seems to be going on is that Emerson has started using stainless steel for at the least, one side of the liners. 
Without actually telling anybody or updating his website. Does that seem right?

One wonders if he dropped his prices since he's now using a cheaper material... Somehow... I think not.


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## guntotin_fool (Jan 15, 2008)

To me, too much of emerson is marketing, and not use and ergo's. Just my opinion, but they seem to develop a cult of personality that shields users from actually deciding that someone else makes better, more comfortable, more useful knives.


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## strideredc (Jan 15, 2008)

*Re: Ernest Emerson has some explaining to do!*



RedLed said:


> I have a real problem with them still advertising the titanium liners. This is totally unethical. People have a right to know they are not paying for titanium.
> 
> Also, it took them almost a year to start to tell only some people in the knife comunity.
> 
> ...


 
Exactly, I would say this is false advertising… shame on you mr Emerson!:thumbsdow

I don’t understand why anyone ‘blindly’ follows any company, doesn’t make sense to me. I find it a bit sad

Which one of the strider lies are you talking about?


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## Stillphoto (Jan 15, 2008)

*Re: Ernest Emerson has some explaining to do!*

Posted by Mr. Emerson on another forum:

_Dear Members,

I'm going to make an announcement on our website this week but I felt I should let you know first. I have to change every description of every knifeand it will take me a couple of days._

_Due to the rising cost of Titanium (It has tripled in price) we have switched to using a 300 series stainless steel _liner_ on the detent side of our production knives. We are using it only on the detent, (top side) and not on the spring side, (_liner_ lock) side. I have been considering using stainless steel for this side over the last year and we have done extensive testing and prototyping of the knives to satisfy our need to know that it would work correctly in use and maintain the integrity of our knives. As a result, we our totally satisfied with the performance of the steel for the detent side. Our first use was on the recent run of Karambits that we finished._

_My custom knives will still feature the full titanium (both sides) _liner _construction._

_I just wanted you to know first, since you are the most discerning customers with the most extensive knowledge of my knives._

_Special runs and special edition knives will be identified by us as to whether or not they have full titanium liners._

_My Best Regards,_

_Ernest R._* Emerson
*

Hopefully that will help explain things better.


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## Spalding (Jan 15, 2008)

It bugs me when companies do what Emerson did. My Cottonelle toilet paper used to be a really good product. In the last few years it's gone from just regular toilet paper to double roll (and it's the same size as before), now to triple roll (and still the same size)and to top it all off it got thinner too - they cut down the width of the roll and it looks like it doesn't fit on the paper holder anymore. I've got a house full of stuff that's been cut down in size or quality to keep the package price the same as before. 

Although I understand why Emerson made the change he did I, if I were him, would have simply mentioned it as the change took place (or before) and avoided this controversy, particularly amongst the folks here who really know, and are happy to pay for, the better materials. To have not said something looks sneaky.


Be glad he didn't send his manufacturing to China like so many others have.


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## matrixshaman (Jan 15, 2008)

I'm just going to say this was edited for my own reasons. Ernie makes good knives but I really think he needs to update his web site ads to be totally clear on what metal is being used in the liners. If you are expecting to get an expensive Titanium liner than you should get Titanium and not stainless steel. Simple as that.


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## jbosman1013 (Jan 15, 2008)

we should rename this the emerson bashing thread


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## strideredc (Jan 15, 2008)

*''Have Emerson lost the plot?'' I think that’s a good bashing title, don’t you? No editing needed.*
** 
*On a serious note, I don’t think anyone has said anything that isn’t true. If something needs a bashing and no one is going over the top and no one is that I can see, then bash away.*
**
*What stilphoto has posted in my mind makes a worse case for Mr emerson imho…*
**
**
_Dear Members,

I'm going to make an announcement on our website this week but I felt I should let you know first. I have to change every description of every knife and it will take me a couple of days. *When was this?*_ 05-13-2007, 05:13 AM_ *nothing has changed????? thats getting on for 8 months*_

_Due to the rising cost of Titanium (It has tripled in price) we have switched to using a 300 series stainless steel _liner_ on the detent side of our production knives. We are using it only on the detent, (top side) and not on the spring side, (_liner_ lock) side. I have been considering using stainless steel for this side over the last year and we have done extensive testing and prototyping of the knives to satisfy our need to know that it would work correctly in use and maintain the integrity of our knives. As a result, we our totally satisfied with the performance of the steel for the detent side. Our first use was on the recent run of Karambits that we finished._

_My custom knives will still feature the full titanium (both sides) _liner _construction. Good enough for custom but not the standard?_

_I just wanted you to know first, since you are the most discerning customers with the most extensive knowledge of my knives. *Are all the other customers stupid, un-discerning and dont deserve to know?*_

_Special runs and special edition knives will be identified by us as to whether or not they have full titanium liners._

_My Best Regards,_

_Ernest R.Emerson_
 
**
*The fact that the website hasn’t been changed in this timeframe is realy bad whatever and however ANYONE looks at it!*


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## RedLED (Jan 15, 2008)

*I think is is over for EKI as we know it!*

If it was not over for Emereon he would not have to start making the guitars, and the picks. All crap!

Also, he lied!


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## mossyoak (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: I think is is over for EKI as we know it!*



RedLed said:


> If it was not over for Emereon he would not have to start making the guitars, and the picks. All crap!
> 
> Also, he lied!



ok we get it, you hate Mick, and now you dont like Ernie either, apparently you feel *compelled* to let us know when any good knife maker makes a mistake. thanks. now, i dont suppose that you have EVER made a mistake?


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## RedLED (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: I think is is over for EKI as we know it!*



mossyoak said:


> ok we get it, you hate Mick, and now you dont like Ernie either, apparently you feel *compelled* to let us know when any good knife maker makes a mistake. thanks. now, i dont suppose that you have EVER made a mistake?


 
No, you are wrong. I own, carry and enjoy knives from both makers. The problem I have is how they lie. Mick has told lies about military service and Emerson needs to clean up his act with his advertising.

Mr. Oak, if I may, is telling a lie a mistake?


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## Stillphoto (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: I think is is over for EKI as we know it!*

Last I checked, this thread had nothing to do with Mick, and should stay that way.

Just speaking for myself here, but I for one don't know that life would have changed much had my liner ended up being SS over Ti. 

As far as his venture into guitars goes - So what, he has another hobby. I'm pretty sure the guitar business is not being built up to be a major profit center. It's a ground level entry, just like when he started with knives.

At the end of the day, if someone has a problem with the ethics of a company, then simple - don't support / carry it. If you still want to carry it, then come to terms with it.


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## Spalding (Jan 16, 2008)

Well,I just looked at the Emerson website and it says liners are titanium but they're not. All you have to do is call the website guy and it gets changed and you can get on with business, or guitar picks, or whatever.

I'll give you an example of how simple it is to change a website. One day I was looking at the Buck website and I noticed that it said their Strider knives were designed by Mick Strider and went on to say he had extensive special/black/secret ops experience. Knowing that to be a bold faced lie and complete fabrication by Mick Strider himself I called Buck to tell them. They removed the Strider fabrication within a day! The guy was astonished to hear the truth about Mick!

If I were Emerson I'd switch to stainless liners in the base series and offer a full titanium liner in a "new" premium series for which I'd charge a premium. That might satisfy both the enthusiasts (us) and also the more casual knife user who is concerned with a certain price point.


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## strideredc (Jan 16, 2008)

‘’Just speaking for myself here, but I for one don't know that life would have changed much had my liner ended up being SS over Ti.’’

I will sell you my Rolex seadweller for $6k if you want, but I will take out the movement and put a perfectly good (if not better) Seiko movement. Sounds like a deal??? Not to me it doesn’t, if I was you!


I am sure the SS is just a strong ect ect… as the TI but its FALSE ADVERTISING if this was Ford, Mc Donald’s or any BIG company lawyers would be all over them!

I have nothing personal against the man I am sure he’s a stand up guy but this is WRONG. Lets not forget this is a business no one is doing anything out of the kindness of there heart! 

I can’t and really don’t believe that someone would buy a premium product for lets not forget a premium price! And then find out that it’s not what was sold to you! And not be bothered.

I find it funny about all the ‘mistakes’ or ‘lies’ told in the knife industry! All of these companies or individuals are trying to sell an idea or dream, no different form the lies the big company’s tell us… its all about making money…

By the way I have no problem if this thread deviates slightly for the said topic! (I can’t speak for the owner or the mod’s though)

This is a forum, so let’s discuss……………….when did people get so prickly????


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## RedLED (Jan 16, 2008)

Emerson has his editorial/manifesto area on his site. He has some strong opinions - of which I agree.

Here is what I wonder about: all of the soldiers and police who use Emerson knives and paid for the knife thinking they had titanium in a certain part in the product. Why are these people being cheated?

I am sorry, as much as I love Emerson, they are selling a product that has different materials from what they advertise. This is a product that the people who purchase it, want to know what each part is made of.

A simple change to the website will fix everything.

Also, the gutiar thing is silly, I asked my advisors today if I should start making them. They told me NO! Stick with what you do.


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## Art Vandelay (Jan 16, 2008)

It seems like an honest mistake. Still, it was a mistake


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## greenstuffs (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: I think is is over for EKI as we know it!*

What mick did does not have a name and what ernie did was a honest mistake which by benefits him by coincidence. I don't see him advertising SS liners while the knife come with Ti liners.  Is not like people don't deserve a 2nd chance but once you lose your trust and integrity you will never be the same. 
I bet nobody will care whether the knife has full Ti liners or not just like people don't care that McDonalds patties are not 100% beef. 



mossyoak said:


> ok we get it, you hate Mick, and now you dont like Ernie either, apparently you feel *compelled* to let us know when any good knife maker makes a mistake. thanks. now, i dont suppose that you have EVER made a mistake?


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## Art Vandelay (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: I think is is over for EKI as we know it!*

.


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## RedLED (Jan 17, 2008)

Art Vandelay said:


> It seems like an honest mistake. Still, it was a mistake


Maybe it was, however, now left unchanged for almost a year, it turned in to fruad. Sorry, it is no longer a mistake. You fix a mistake.


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## strideredc (Jan 17, 2008)

A mistake is something you would correct in a SHORT amount of time, like a few days/weeks at the most! 

This is not a sticker on the back of his car! This is his website, his businesses portal to the WORLD and it’s not like he hasn’t been told either!!!

Given the timeframe and the fact he has been told multiple times, that’s no mistake. Come on?:thumbsdow


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## Art Vandelay (Jan 17, 2008)

What's the difference in price between one side of a liner in SS vs Ti?


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## RedLED (Jan 17, 2008)

strideredc said:


> A mistake is something you would correct in a SHORT amount of time, like a few days/weeks at the most!
> 
> This is not a sticker on the back of his car! This is his website, his businesses portal to the WORLD and it’s not like he hasn’t been told either!!!
> 
> Given the timeframe and the fact he has been told multiple times, that’s no mistake. Come on?:thumbsdow


 
I agree, he does not seem to be willing to change it, so I will not buy knives from them in the future. That new A100 looks nice, but I just will not buy it. This is no mistake, not after the amount of time that has passed.


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## RedLED (Jan 17, 2008)

Art Vandelay said:


> What's the difference in price between one side of a liner in SS vs Ti?


 
Art, that is a very good question. However regardless of price people are entitled to know the exact metals in the knife whatever they may be, and not be subjected to false advertising of the product.

This is bad for EKI


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## strideredc (Jan 17, 2008)

Art Vandelay said:


> What's the difference in price between one side of a liner in SS vs Ti?


 

i would be interested to know this also? any of the knife experts have any idea?


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## mossyoak (Jan 18, 2008)

i couldnt be to terribly much, i mean McGizmo is pretty much working exclusively in titanium these days, at the most it'd be like 15 bucks or so wouldnt it?


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## Stillphoto (Jan 18, 2008)

Have the liners been tested as far as which material they're made of? Shy of being told that the switch had taken place, do we know that it actually happened? Figured that was just another base to cover.


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## strideredc (Jan 18, 2008)

Stillphoto said:


> Have the liners been tested as far as which material they're made of? Shy of being told that the switch had taken place, do we know that it actually happened? Figured that was just another base to cover.


 

I had a Super Commander made in 2007. Took it for camping and for 3 days it was exposed to the elements. I thought nothing of it until I returned home and found slight rusting on one side of the liner. Couldn't understand it as at the time of purchase I thought as always that it was Ti. 

Turns out SS if exposed to the elements could rust after all. I've mostly cleaned it up with some WD40 as I stripped it apart but yes it was disappointing to me that no where was my Super Commander listed as having SS. Not terribly upset but definitely not satisfying.


telkin had this bad exp. on a 2007 knife:shakehead


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## RedLED (Jan 18, 2008)

strideredc said:


> I had a Super Commander made in 2007. Took it for camping and for 3 days it was exposed to the elements. I thought nothing of it until I returned home and found slight rusting on one side of the liner. Couldn't understand it as at the time of purchase I thought as always that it was Ti.
> 
> Turns out SS if exposed to the elements could rust after all. I've mostly cleaned it up with some WD40 as I stripped it apart but yes it was disappointing to me that no where was my Super Commander listed as having SS. Not terribly upset but definitely not satisfying.
> 
> ...


 
If this happend to a knife that was purchaced in 2007, the customer was under the impression he had titanium in that part of the knife. Well, it looks like he did not after all.

This is nothing short of cheating a customer, very unethical business practice. Emerson Knives has some real explaining to do and they need to do something for all the people that bought a knife under the idea they actually had titanium.

This is absolutely unbelievable! Emerson needs to apologize to the people who have supported him over the years. Shame on EKI.


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## Stillphoto (Jan 18, 2008)

Red, you live in SoCal, why don't you drop by and ask them in person? They can't hide behind emails and voicemail when face to face. Would get you some sort of answer, whether it be a solution or more to feed the fire.


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## RA40 (Jan 19, 2008)

The practical differences, the SS may encounter corrosion issues while the Ti will not. Strength wise, I feel a 300/303 series SS would be the stronger when used in a typical liner or frame lock type build. Given knife use, either is sufficient that most users will not encounter the limits of either metal.

Cost, I dunno what 303 SS is, the SS is economical compared to Ti which is about $35-40 a pound.


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## Coop (Jan 19, 2008)

I still love my Emerson with 2 Ti liners 

I think Mr. Emerson is going about this the wrong way... He should change the info on his website, lower the prices by $10 and add a new section to his site where his customers can order 'custom Ti replacement liners' so they can make their Ti/SS lined knife a Ti/Ti lined knife.
Or simply give his customers the option to buy a cheaper Ti/SS knife or pay a little extra for a full Ti.


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## GarageBoy (Jan 19, 2008)

Ernie is not a guy who would screw you...
Meet him at a show, talk to him. Very down to earth man, I'm sure they'll get to the site soon enough


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## milox (Jan 20, 2008)

FAQ section on EKI website writes why they use TI and SS liners


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## ErickThakrar (Jan 20, 2008)

That FAQ has been recently changed. Very recently. I looked at it less than a week ago and it didn't have that section.


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## RedLED (Feb 6, 2008)

ErickThakrar said:


> That FAQ has been recently changed. Very recently. I looked at it less than a week ago and it didn't have that section.


 
Yes, however, the section where the knife specs. are now say that the lock is Ti. there is no mention of the steel on the opposite side. People are going to think both sides are Ti. since there is no mention of steel.

I guess they are going to keep lying to customers. I find this very misleading and sneaky.

Makes me wonder if they even make the knives in the USA anymore. If a $5.00 liner is a good cost cutting method, just imagine how much more he could profit by having everything made in China.

I no longer trust Mr. Emerson


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## Spalding (Feb 6, 2008)

Well, I sincerely hope the free market punishes him in a manner matching the enormity of his crimes...This whole "tactical" knife thing is getting goofy - first that Strider nonsense then this. What's with these knife manufacturers? See why I stick with Spyderco?


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## RedLED (Feb 7, 2008)

Spalding said:


> Well, I sincerely hope the free market punishes him in a manner matching the enormity of his crimes...This whole "tactical" knife thing is getting goofy - first that Strider nonsense then this. What's with these knife manufacturers? See why I stick with Spyderco?


 
You know Spalding, I agree with you. The other possibility is that he is trying to sell the company, and wants to fix up the books to show a better profit margin.

For a guy that waves the flag in his manifestos on his web site he is the exact opposite in this matter. He is lying and trying to fool his customers with this lock thing.

After this, and what Mick Strider has pulled, I have little faith in the knife community. If you think about it, how do we really know what any materials are made of, and if they are made in China?

Remember...he is cheating the heroes who serve America!


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## Steel85 (Feb 7, 2008)

I don't trust anybody that puts a Chisel grind on their knives. It does't cut well at all! I had one it didn't work so I gave it away. Flat Grinds and Convex Grinds Cut MUCH BETTER!


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## dano (Feb 8, 2008)

Here's what the FAQ says:

Why do you use stainless steel on one liner and titanium on the other liner?


We use Aerospace grade titanium on the spring/lock side liner. Titanium is the perfect material for that function and has all of the properties needed to perform the duties of a strong reliable locking liner system. The opposite side (non-lock side) is crafted from a 300 series stainless steel. This side of the knife functions as a handle frame stiffener and has a minimal mechanical function. The stainless steel is truly stainless. It will not rust and does not affect the overall performance, wear, or durability of the knife in any negative way.

http://www.emersonknives.com/SpecialAnnouncement_Index.html


Not sure what the confusion is. The listing for the CQC-15 model lists the liners as Ti. All the other folders I looked at either show the "lock" as Ti or don't list anything in regards to the liners.

I don't think it's some huge conspiracy, just an oversight with a company that doesn't put a lot of focus on their website.

-dan


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## Stillphoto (Feb 8, 2008)

Good point Dano. There are many companies that just don't focus on their website / don't update at all.


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## RedLED (Feb 8, 2008)

Focus? You call your Webmaster, and have them make the update. Very easy.

You realize they did update the site, and they are trying to fool people with this lock thing.

This has something to do with manufacturing, and working with titanium.
I would like to know from Emerson if they have moved some of the production of their parts to China or Mexico like so many other companies.

Steel is easy to work with compared to titanium.

This would increase profits, and make the company look more profitable to a prospective buyer.

They do not want to list the steel for a reason. This is bad business.


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## dano (Feb 8, 2008)

It's plainly now listed that the lock side is Ti, the FAQ addresses the opposite liner...what's the issue?

Ti prices have increased substantially, mainly due to Russia and China buying huge quanities.

I think people want to see a conspiracy where one does not exist. 

-dan


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## RedLED (Feb 8, 2008)

dano said:


> It's plainly now listed that the lock side is Ti, the FAQ addresses the opposite liner...what's the issue?
> 
> Ti prices have increased substantially, mainly due to Russia and China buying huge quanities.
> 
> ...


 
Well, your information is not exact. Russia has more titanium than any other country in the world.

Emerson is doing something with manufacturing. If titanium is $36.00 per pound, that is $2.25 an ounce, so to me the cost of the material is no big thing. However, if you move production off shore to China or Mexico, they do not work good with some metals, so I would guess the steel parts now come from the third world. I would say the clip, blade, and screws are made off shore.

This move in my mind is to allow for the manufacturing of guitars, and guitar picks at the current Emerson shop.

Note: I am not exact on the price of Ti, that price was posted here a while back, and I just used it as an example.

Something is up! Again he is cheating the guy who has been in Bagdad for an extended tour, and making a lesser knife in order to build dumb guitars.

GUITARS?


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## Stillphoto (Feb 8, 2008)

Who said the change in liner material had anything to do with his building of guitars?

I'm sure Ernie isn't the only company owner to partake in hobbies while on company property. Plus if everyone's argument that the ti doesn't cost that much more is true, he isn't saving that much money. Parts coming from the third world? Really? Care to research that?


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## Art Vandelay (Feb 9, 2008)

Wouldn't he get a volume discount if he had all the work done in titanium at the same CNC shop?


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## nightgaunt (Feb 9, 2008)

RedLed said:


> Well, your information is not exact. Russia has more titanium than any other country in the world.
> 
> Emerson is doing something with manufacturing. If titanium is $36.00 per pound, that is $2.25 an ounce, so to me the cost of the material is no big thing. However, if you move production off shore to China or Mexico, they do not work good with some metals, so I would guess the steel parts now come from the third world. I would say the clip, blade, and screws are made off shore.
> 
> ...



Amazing. Do you love to stir up unproven facts and rumors? The drama in this post is just ridiculous. People in this post are sounding like the sky is falling and there is a huge conspiracy and Ernie Emerson is out to rip everyone off...come on! 

Here is an idea...if you don't like the knife and/or company...don't buy!


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## Stillphoto (Feb 9, 2008)

I'll second that. 

It's not as if he's rubbing his hands together going "heh heh heh, fools! all of them!"


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## RedLED (Feb 9, 2008)

nightgaunt said:


> Amazing. Do you love to stir up unproven facts and rumors? The drama in this post is just ridiculous. People in this post are sounding like the sky is falling and there is a huge conspiracy and Ernie Emerson is out to rip everyone off...come on!
> 
> Here is an idea...if you don't like the knife and/or company...don't buy!


 
well, I have bought, and I would like to continue to be a customer, however, I feel he has cheapened up the brand. 

He is not just having some fun in the shop, he has launched a custom gutiar company. Why, when you have the name and reputation that is the envy of the entire knife world, would you start to make something as stupid as guitars, and moreover, picks.

As I have stated: He waves the flag, and cheats soldiers, police officers, and firemen. Cheaper knife = larger profits. More money to sink in the Emerson Custom Gutiar Co.

When people who own small businesses get a crazy idea in their heads, and go off in the wrong direction, well, this when they fail at their real calling. 

Emerson is crazy to make this change. Let me ask you if you think Les Paul is thinking about making knives? They are not.

With them having to create production space for this new endeavour, the knife production could easily go some place else, just look at what is not being made in the US these days.


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## tensixteen (Feb 10, 2008)

Honestly, I feel some people here are just trying to stir up a whole lot of poop. I feel that Ernie did slip up in that he did not change the details on his website to show STAINLESS STEEL as opposed to Titanium. I'll call him about that later. However, i believe it's genuinely a mistake. It may be easy to change, as what some have mentioned, but Ernie's a really busy man, and sometimes IT IS hard to get some time off to address details like this. EKI isn't a HUGE company with loads of employees, and having 1 or 2 people specializing in checking the forums, or updating the website. Their core focus is to build working blades which people can depend their lives on, and i appreciate that.

_"If you think about it, how do we really know what any materials are made of, and if they are made in China?

Remember...he is cheating the heroes who serve America!"_

REDLED, before you start hurling poop around, and accusing Ernie of cheating people, and posting comments like this, please do check your facts. I agree with you when you raise the point about Ernie not putting accurate facts on the liners, but when you make a comment like this, questioning if the knives are made in China, *what is your motive*? I don't see this to be linked to the Stainless VS Titanium issue.

_"He is not just having some fun in the shop, he has launched a custom gutiar company. Why, when you have the name and reputation that is the envy of the entire knife world, would you start to make something as *stupid* as guitars, and moreover, picks.

As I have stated: He waves the flag, and cheats soldiers, police officers, and firemen. Cheaper knife = larger profits. More money to sink in the Emerson Custom Gutiar Co."_

Who are you to judge and label it as Stupid? Honestly i don't see anything wrong with product diversity. And i believe it is precisely the fact that EKI has attained a good reputation, that Ernie can now try out things which would have been impossible if he was struggling to keep the company alive. You love to use the word "CHEAT"..again, *what is your motive?*

_"This would increase profits, and make the company look more profitable to a prospective buyer."_

That's funny. The last i checked, Ernie never mentioned having the intention to sell EKI. And i just spoke to him on the phone yesterday.

Regards,
Nick


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## sween1911 (Feb 11, 2008)

nightgaunt said:


> Here is an idea...if you don't like the knife and/or company...don't buy!



WELL SAID! 

Emerson Knives in particular has a massive customer following and loyal fan base. Ernie KNOWS that. He's not trying to "slip one past us". He knows that his word and reputation are on the line. Who gives a hoot if he wants to make guitars? He's not running the whole company based soley on the revenue generated from making guitars, so I doubt he's taking anything away from the production knife line to make guitar picks. If anything, they're probably waste material from the dies used to make the knife liners.


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## RedLED (Feb 12, 2008)

tensixteen said:


> Honestly, I feel some people here are just trying to stir up a whole lot of poop. I feel that Ernie did slip up in that he did not change the details on his website to show STAINLESS STEEL as opposed to Titanium. I'll call him about that later. However, i believe it's genuinely a mistake. It may be easy to change, as what some have mentioned, but Ernie's a really busy man, and sometimes IT IS hard to get some time off to address details like this. EKI isn't a HUGE company with loads of employees, and having 1 or 2 people specializing in checking the forums, or updating the website. Their core focus is to build working blades which people can depend their lives on, and i appreciate that.
> 
> _"If you think about it, how do we really know what any materials are made of, and if they are made in China?_
> 
> ...


 
Nick, what is your handle on USN? I was banned there real quick for questioning an Emerson product. 

If you do not agree with me that is fine, but there are some hard facts you just Can't ignore. He took almost 11 months to let people know of this liner change, and this was revealed only after word leaked out on the internet. 

To me this was not going to be told to people, and he was simply going to cheat people by charging for titanium, and using steel.

And who is he cheating? Here is who: Hereos! The cop on the beat in the middle of the night, the firefighter who will rescue people, and the group who took the biggest slap in the face in this lie, our military.

Yes, our soldiers who are in the Hell in Iraq, bought his knives, and were lied to as to the contents of the materials.

So, when you meet your good, close, personal friend, why Don't you let him see this and respond...I'd love to read his response.

Mister EE is trying to score a profit by making some of the best people in our American world the victims of his lies.

As for the guitar operation, you use the word "Diversity." Well, to me that word always is used to explain why something is not as good as it once was. In this case, I would say you have used the perfect word. Good choice.

Come on...guitars, this man has no concept what he is going to do to his company.

He also owes anyone who bought a knife in the 11 months the lie floated a refund, or credit.

Would you use the word, HONORABLE, to describe this business practice?


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## RedLED (Feb 12, 2008)

sween1911 said:


> WELL SAID!
> 
> Emerson Knives in particular has a massive customer following and loyal fan base. Ernie KNOWS that. He's not trying to "slip one past us". He knows that his word and reputation are on the line. Who gives a hoot if he wants to make guitars? He's not running the whole company based soley on the revenue generated from making guitars, so I doubt he's taking anything away from the production knife line to make guitar picks. If anything, they're probably waste material from the dies used to make the knife liners.


 
Hey, wait a minute...he told us Ti was too expensive, so what gives with custom titanium guitars, and picks? Come on Dude, he is lying.

This is what happens when people start with lies. 

Something is going on there, no doubt. He has cheated good, honest people.

Mick Strider told many lies, however, even as bad is it is to lie in business, no one was directly cheated. Mick made fools of the US military community and combat veterans. Bad, very bad, but no direct cheating.

Emereon, on the other hand has taken money from people, and lied about the actual material in his product. This is CHEATING!

Sorry, EE lied!


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## Spalding (Feb 12, 2008)

Redled,

Although I agree with your assessment that Emerson has, and let me put it politely, not quite been up front about some details in the product he sells he may be the victim of personal issues we wouldn't have any knowledge of. I watch the sad story of Britney Spears and can't help but wonder what would have happened if she had been given a better upbringing by her parents. Perhaps we wouldn't be seeing her go off the deep end now?

It's conceivable Ernest is only now confronting the demons from his past and has perhaps, and I am only speculating, started to "hang" with a new crowd - musicians. It's my understanding he had a display at a recent convention of musical instrument manufacturers and the display consisted of only an easel with a sign on it - no sales staff or product whatsoever - for the entire week. I guess he's not really making the guitars he says he's making, huh?

Naturally we, as knife enthusiasts, have an interest in liners in pocketknives but I think we need to take a step back and consider that what we see may be only a symptom of a larger problem for our friend Ernest Emerson. 

Spalding


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## tensixteen (Feb 12, 2008)

Hi RedLed, my screen name on USN is tensixteen. Since you asked me what was my screen name on USN, what was yours? Do you mind if i read what you posted? or is that too sensitive?

Where i live, a normal guitar pick goes for around S$2. Ernie's guitar picks retail at US$25.95. In my currency, that works out to S$36.58, and i would say if having titanium as a guitar pick makes the price 18 TIMES as expensive, would you agree with me that titanium is expensive?

http://www.golfsurround.com/news/equipment/driversandwoods/titanium_spike050405.cfm">http://www.golfsurround.com/news/equipment/driversandwoods/titanium_spike050405.cfm

if you read the article, you would notice they mentioned a 310 percent increase in the price of titanium, and that Golf-Equipment manufacturers are feeling the pinch too. I believe that says something about the authenticity about the rise in titanium prices.

Next, you also mentioned that Ernie's cheating the people who are serving the nation. Maybe you would like to ask some of these professionals who actually use their knives, as to whether they worry about Ernie having Stainless Steel in the liners, as opposed to having titanium. Furthermore, the non-locking side has been changed to Steel, but the liner still remains as Titanium. I CHALLENGE you to show me how the knife has been functionally compromised for the USER through this change.

_“To me this was not going to be told to people, and he was simply going to cheat people by charging for titanium, and using steel.”_

Ermm, correct me if I'm wrong, but for Ernie to qualify for that, shouldn't he be charging MORE for his knives as he should when he's using titanium?

_"If you do not agree with me that is fine, but there are some hard facts you just Can't ignore. He took almost 11 months to let people know of this liner change, and this was revealed only after word leaked out on the internet."_

That sounds kind of strange to me, considering that Ernie OPENLY made this announcement:

_Dear Members,_
_I'm going to make an announcement on our website this week but I felt I should let you know first. I have to change every description of every knifeand it will take me a couple of days. Due to the rising cost of Titanium (It has tripled in price)_ (hmm...sounds consistent with the 310% increase as mentioned in the golf-equipment article i posted the link to.) _we have switched to using a 300 series stainless steel liner on the detent side of our production knives. We are using it only on the detent, (top side) and not on the spring side, (liner lock) side. I have been considering using stainless steel for this side over the last year and we have done extensive testing and prototyping of the knives to satisfy our need to know that it would work correctly in use and maintain the integrity of our knives. As a result, we our totally satisfied with the performance of the steel for the detent side. Our first use was on the recent run of Karambits that we finished._
_My custom knives will still feature the full titanium (both sides) liner construction.<BR><BR>I just wanted you to know first, since you are the most discerning customers with the most extensive knowledge of my knives._
_Special runs and special edition knives will be identified by us as to whether or not they have full titanium liners._

_My Best Regards,_
_Ernest R. Emerson_

"As for the guitar operation, you use the word "Diversity." Well, to me that word always is used to explain why something is not as good as it once was. In this case, I would say you have used the perfect word. Good choice.”
Here’s a quote i found on diversity:

“At Microsoft, we believe that diversity enriches our performance and products, the communities where we live and work, and the lives of our employees. As our workforce evolves to reflect the growing diversity of our communities and the global marketplace, our efforts to understand, value, and incorporate differences become increasingly important. Come explore diversity at Microsoft!”

Source: http://www.microsoft.com/about/diversity/default.mspx

Well, if diversity is a _"word always used to explain why something is not as good as it once was"_, I guess Microsoft's making a big mistake eh? Some examples of diversity:

Yamaha: Motorcycles / Music instruments
Apple: Music Players, Computers, Cellphones
Sony: Television, Gaming Consoles, Cellphones, etc...

I'm sure these companies would agree with you that diversity is a _"word always used to explain why something is not as good as it once was"_

Cheers and Regards,
Nick
(tensixteen on the USN)


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## mgeoffriau (Feb 12, 2008)

Oh good grief, what a bunch of drama queens.

Look, I don't even own an Emerson. I've had a few pass through my hands, but the chisel grind and the relatively thin liners (compared to the framelocks I prefer) just didn't do it for me. No biggie, just not my thing.

But some people here need to quit worrying so damn much about what other people are doing. Here's the facts:

1. Emerson made a certain profit margin on his all-Ti production folders. Only they know exactly what this margin is.

2. The price of Ti made it impossible for Emerson to realize the same profit margin. 

3. Emerson tested and decided stainless steel was an acceptable substitute and made an announcement on their most active customer forums.

4. Emerson screwed up and failed to update their public website within a timely manner.

Now, if you ask me, the ONLY problem is #4, and it appears to have been corrected now. So quit bitching. Emerson can sell his knives for whatever price he wants, and if you think it's not a good deal, then don't buy his knives. It's that simple. There's no "fair" or "reasonable" price for knives. The fair price is whatever will maximize profit for the maker, and if you don't understand that, then you are either socialist or an idiot (or possibly both).


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## Art Vandelay (Feb 12, 2008)

I have not read any complaints about this before this thread. I have seen posts complaining about using titanium as a lock, because titanium is so much softer than the steel blade. Some people have even had the lock replaced with steel. I don't have one myself, but I like his designs. I might have gotten one if they were not chisel ground.


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## RedLED (Feb 13, 2008)

tensixteen said:


> Hi RedLed, my screen name on USN is tensixteen. Since you asked me what was my screen name on USN, what was yours? Do you mind if i read what you posted? or is that too sensitive?
> 
> Where i live, a normal guitar pick goes for around S$2. Ernie's guitar picks retail at US$25.95. In my currency, that works out to S$36.58, and i would say if having titanium as a guitar pick makes the price 18 TIMES as expensive, would you agree with me that titanium is expensive?
> 
> ...


 
Well, Nick, where do I start? I know, let's talk about titanium. You see it costs more to work with this metal, so a company must charge more for an item, like the golf club you list. Combine the production costs, plus the higher cost of raw ti, and you get a higher overall cost to produce an item.

You, as an Emerson collector should know that the mysique, and special fun of owning an Emerson is the fact that both the liners are made of titanium. Not just one. It makes no sence to me that Mr Emerson, who has the best name in the history of the cutlery industry would reduce the quality of his original design by putting in a metal that takes away the charm of owning his wonderful product. 

All he had to do was raise the price a little, and that would be that. As for the people who say he is trying to keep costs low in order for some to keep the knife reasonable, I say that is just dumb. Emereon knives are a premimum product, and people will always pay extra for a premimum item, the free markes tells us that. A price increase is no big deal, and they must happen regardless of the product, period.

For the people that cannot afford the flagship Emerson models, there is the Emerson Hardware line from Japan. This was to be an Emerson for the working man. Well, you certainly know the Hardware line is a failure. People never responded to them. They lack what customers want in an Emerson tactical knife. They are cheap looking, feel cheap, and well, are boring.

I stand by what I have stated in that the Emerson Custom Guitar Co, has caused the shift to steel in the premimum knife line.

You bring up a good point in all of this by bringing up the cost of guitar picks. If Titanium is not as good as steel in the knives, then why would someone pay $25.00 for a $2.00 pick? They will for the coolness, and fun factor, just what the knife customers want...mystique, something different and unique. Thanks for the pick comparison to help me prove my point.

You have posted Emerson's reason for the change from Ti to steel. The only problem is he waited almost a year to let customers, and dealers know of the change, which, makes him a cheater. If he had made the same announcement to his dealers, and customers when the change was made, no problem.

HE MADE THE ANNOUNCEMENT 11 MONTHS LATE!!! 11 MONTHS!!!

Do you see a series of stupid mistakes here. Do you now see why I say the guitar project is going to sink his company? I hope you do.

Why after all these years do you change materials to your original design?

Now he is telling us on his web site that the lock is titanium. OK...well, most people will think both sides are titanium. This is a misleading stunt, and it is very insulting. Not every person who buys his knives will understand this, nor will they know of any changes since it makes no mention of the other side of the liner, and that it is steel. People will hear liner lock, and automatically believe that both sides are titanium, just like they were when the knife was introduced years ago, and have always been.

Nick, I realize Ernest Emerson is your Hero, unfortunately, he is human, and in business to make a profit. Often people will do the wrong thing to get their hands on money, and this is called greed. Greed has caused Emerson to lie to and step on the very people he says are the best , in his manifestos which he posts on his web site where he sells his wares.

He lied to the HEROE'S he claims to respect, took their money while selling them a knife which does not have the materials he advertised.

That is called a Lie. He Lied


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## RedLED (Feb 13, 2008)

Spalding said:


> Redled,
> 
> Although I agree with your assessment that Emerson has, and let me put it politely, not quite been up front about some details in the product he sells he may be the victim of personal issues we wouldn't have any knowledge of. I watch the sad story of Britney Spears and can't help but wonder what would have happened if she had been given a better upbringing by her parents. Perhaps we wouldn't be seeing her go off the deep end now?
> 
> ...


 
Spalding,

You may have hit the nail on the head. A mental illness!

The decisions we see coming out of the Emerson Knife Co., are very strange, and make no sense. Plus the fact he lied. Sometimes people who are going through problems in life will lie and cheat, often for no reason.

You also bring up the fact that he is entering a new industry with this silly guitar thing. Why would a company have a booth at a major trade show in an indusrty you are trying to break into, and not have even a low level Rep. there to hand out information? This is an odd thing indeed since the show was about 20 minutes from Emerson Hdqs. in So. Cal.

How will he reach a target market in the music businees? He makes and sells the most expensive guitar picks in the world. The most expensive ever! Our friend Nick, has told us the Emerson Titanium picks are 18 times the cost over normal picks. Wow! How he is going to move these is anyone's guess.

There is no way he will be able to market them from his knife site. I think it will end up a disaster, and be a humiliating experience for Mr. Emerson.

Spalding, I agree with you, something is wrong here, and I am sincerely sorry for Mr Emerson. I am a collector of his custom and production knives, and I really hope he is OK. I am very upset at him for the lies, however, I would never wish any kind of illness or anything on a person.

I hope all will be good soon for Mr. Emerson.

I believe Ernest Emerson is a good person, unlike the lowlife Ex-con, carjacker, Mick Strider, aka Micky Ray Berger!


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## RedLED (Feb 13, 2008)

mgeoffriau said:


> Oh good grief, what a bunch of drama queens.
> 
> Look, I don't even own an Emerson. I've had a few pass through my hands, but the chisel grind and the relatively thin liners (compared to the framelocks I prefer) just didn't do it for me. No biggie, just not my thing.
> 
> ...


 
Welcome Mgeoffriau to CPF!

This is your first post!

First I would like to address your point number 2. Why not simply make a slight price increase just like every other company in the world? 

Now your point 3. He made the announcement on USN, what about people who are not on USN, or his dealer network. He lied to his dealers for 11 months also. What an awful thing to do to his dealers.

Care to chime in on the guitars, and picks? I'd love to hear it.

Thanks for not defending him in the 11 month long lie.


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## mgeoffriau (Feb 13, 2008)

Sure.

Point #2 -- Ernie Emerson decided that steel was functionally an acceptable substitute for the detent side liner, and so felt that he could keep the prices constant rather than raising them. Your claim that "every other company in the world" would raise the price rather than finding a new substitute material is speculative at best. It takes me only a few minutes to find several knifemakers who have switched to using raw Ti(CP) or stainless steel for certain applications because of the increasing cost of Ti64.

3. Are you an Emerson dealer? Do you know for a fact that he did not inform his dealers? So far the only confirmed charge is that the Emerson website contained _ambiguous_ information on the individual knife pages (listing the liners as titanium instead of noting the partial change); and if that's the worst we're dealing with, well, I can find 10 company websites that contain material that is more than a year out of date. Yes, it was a problem. They fixed it.

What does the guitar business have to do with it? Emerson's use of Ti in his guitar picks is unrelated to the decision of whether it's cost-effective in his knives. It's two different products, two different markets, and two different price points. Quit bringing it up, it's a red herring.

Mostly what this boils down to is that you disagree with the business decision to swich to steel. Fine, good for you. Unfortunately, you didn't start one of the most successful knife companies in the world, so you don't get to make that decision -- Ernie does.


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## RedLED (Feb 13, 2008)

mgeoffriau said:


> Sure.
> 
> Point #2 -- Ernie Emerson decided that steel was functionally an acceptable substitute for the detent side liner, and so felt that he could keep the prices constant rather than raising them. Your claim that "every other company in the world" would raise the price rather than finding a new substitute material is speculative at best. It takes me only a few minutes to find several knifemakers who have switched to using raw Ti(CP) or stainless steel for certain applications because of the increasing cost of Ti64.
> 
> ...


 
megoffriau, I will address your concerns:

No, I am not a dealer. I do know one of the largest dealers in the west of Emerson Knives, and they had no idea. You see, he lied to everyone all at once. By the way, the dealer I know was upset. He also said 'Striders sold much better with their more modern design.'

Now let me ask you, are you an employee, or related to EKI? Come on...are you?

It would be logical business to keep your original design, and increase costs a little, not the way he did it especially for a premium product. Sorry.

I use the guitar business to show how he is making awful business decisions. You even say he has built the best knife company in the world, of which I agree. Only to go down the wrong road of guitar manufacturing. No one in their right mind would do this, and Spalding brings up an excellent point above.

We have not even touched on the possibility he is making some of the knife parts offshore. I will have more on this soon.

Funny, your first posts on a flashlight forum are on a knife topic? Oh well, that's OK. Are you sure you are not with the Emerson camp?

Have a nice day!


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## hotbossa (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: Ernest Emerson has some explaining to do!*



RedLed said:


> I have a real problem with them still advertising the titanium liners. This is totally unethical. People have a right to know they are not paying for titanium.
> 
> Also, it took them almost a year to start to tell only some people in the knife comunity.
> 
> ...


 
Wow, someone needs to take his meds. I just got my 4th emerson, a 2008 CQC-8. It is probably the best "Quality Control" Emerson I have ever bought. It is dead center, smooth opening, razor sharp, perfect black finish, and yes, it has a titanium locking and a SS non-locking liners. It doesn't bother me at all, it functions fine. It is a great knife that is going to get lots of use. Emerson doesn't want to increase the price of the knives because he wants them to be available to the masses (i.e. police, military, firemen, etc...). Most military people can't afford $400 for a Strider or Sebenza but can scrape together $150 for an Emerson. Seriously RedLed, you seem to have a lot of passion, you need to find soemthing positive to focus all that energy into. It would be for the good of man kind!!!


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## RedLED (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: Ernest Emerson has some explaining to do!*



hotbossa said:


> Wow, someone needs to take his meds. I just got my 4th emerson, a 2008 CQC-8. It is probably the best "Quality Control" Emerson I have ever bought. It is dead center, smooth opening, razor sharp, perfect black finish, and yes, it has a titanium locking and a SS non-locking liners. It doesn't bother me at all, it functions fine. It is a great knife that is going to get lots of use. Emerson doesn't want to increase the price of the knives because he wants them to be available to the masses (i.e. police, military, firemen, etc...). Most military people can't afford $400 for a Strider or Sebenza but can scrape together $150 for an Emerson. Seriously RedLed, you seem to have a lot of passion, you need to find soemthing positive to focus all that energy into. It would be for the good of man kind!!!


 
Hey, you question all my quotes except the fact good old Ernie is a, Well, LIAR! 

What do you have to say about the fact he conducted what I now refer to as the Eleven Month Lie?

Don't lay that keep the price low for the Heros thing on me, add $20.00 to the price, and forget about it. Truth is: he lied to the Heros.

While we are at it, where do you stand on the guitar issue? I Can't wait to hear it.


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## hotbossa (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: Ernest Emerson has some explaining to do!*



RedLed said:


> Hey, you question all my quotes except the fact good old Ernie is a, Well, LIAR!
> 
> What do you have to say about the fact he conducted what I now refer to as the Eleven Month Lie?
> 
> ...


 
OK, I don’t consider Emerson a liar because the word “liar” has a malicious intent associated with it. I don’t think he was malicious, I think it was more of an oversight. I belong to the USN so I knew about the change for almost a year now, not a big deal to me. Also, I don’t think he changed from Ti to SS just to **** people off….he had to have a reason to do it. Ti is expensive now, it is one of the hardest medals to mine and get to. 

As far as the guitar thing, I don’t know. I have a BA in Guitar Performance from one of the best schools in the country and have been playing professionally since I was 15. I don’t care for the guitar design to much myself although he is using nice woods and components. The guitar also seems pretty pricey. I don’t think I will be trading in my guitars anytime soon for the Commander. You can’t fault a guy for trying new things; he may come out with a guitar that I like later down the road.


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## mgeoffriau (Feb 13, 2008)

RedLed said:


> megoffriau, I will address your concerns:
> 
> No, I am not a dealer. I do know one of the largest dealers in the west of Emerson Knives, and they had no idea. You see, he lied to everyone all at once. By the way, the dealer I know was upset. He also said 'Striders sold much better with their more modern design.'



What's the purpose of including the Strider quote? What's your axe to grind here? 



RedLed said:


> Now let me ask you, are you an employee, or related to EKI? Come on...are you?



No, as I stated I don't even own any EKI knives.



RedLed said:


> It would be logical business to keep your original design, and increase costs a little, not the way he did it especially for a premium product. Sorry.



You think it's logical. Ernie didn't. Matter of opinion. Since Ernie has created one of the most successful knife companies ever, and revolutionized the tactical knife market, I'll trust his judgment over yours.



RedLed said:


> I use the guitar business to show how he is making awful business decisions. You even say he has built the best knife company in the world, of which I agree. Only to go down the wrong road of guitar manufacturing. No one in their right mind would do this, and Spalding brings up an excellent point above.



You think it's a bad business decision. I'd say the jury is out. IF EKI sees their business diminish, and THEN there's some reasonable link between the guitar experiment and the failure of the knife company, THEN I'll say sure, it was a bad decision.

Until then, nobody knows if it's a bad decision or not. For the record, I said "one of the best" knife companies.



RedLed said:


> We have not even touched on the possibility he is making some of the knife parts offshore. I will have more on this soon.



What's your point? Lots of companies use foreign factories. I believe Emerson started testing this with the Hard Wear line.



RedLed said:


> Funny, your first posts on a flashlight forum are on a knife topic? Oh well, that's OK. Are you sure you are not with the Emerson camp?



If I am, I'm also a prophet because I must have anticipated this thread when I registered on CPF back in May of 2005.

Actually, I check here fairly often, but my interest in lights is minimal, so I just come to learn and read, not to post.


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## tensixteen (Feb 13, 2008)

RedLed said:


> You, as an Emerson collector should know that the mysique, and special fun of owning an Emerson is the fact that both the liners are made of titanium. Not just one. It makes no sence to me that Mr Emerson, who has the best name in the history of the cutlery industry would reduce the quality of his original design by putting in a metal that takes away the charm of owning his wonderful product.


 
hmm, RedLed, to be honest, i've NEVER came across anyone who claimed that the "mystique and special fun of owning an Emerson" had EVERYTHING to do with having both liners made from titanium. On the contrary, if there's any special trait of Emerson knives that is THE "special fun" and "mystique", i would say it's probably the wave.



RedLed said:


> All he had to do was raise the price a little, and that would be that. As for the people who say he is trying to keep costs low in order for some to keep the knife reasonable, I say that is just dumb. Emereon knives are a premimum product, and people will always pay extra for a premimum item, the free markes tells us that. A price increase is no big deal, and they must happen regardless of the product, period.


 
Dear Sir, you were one of the first to bring up the "HEROES" element into this discussion, and unlike collectors who are willing to fork out "extra for a premium item", a lower price would benefit these "HEROES" which you allege that Ernie is cheating.



RedLed said:


> You bring up a good point in all of this by bringing up the cost of guitar picks. If Titanium is not as good as steel in the knives, then why would someone pay $25.00 for a $2.00 pick? They will for the coolness, and fun factor, just what the knife customers want...mystique, something different and unique. Thanks for the pick comparison to help me prove my point.


 
RedLed, are you a guitar player? have you tried a titanium pick before? have you tried a metal pick before? I doubt it is just for the "coolness and fun factor". I belief it has more to do with the sound it derives from the strings. I'm not a guitar player myself, but i know for sure my guitarist friends have spent money on metal picks for they prefer the sound they can obtain from them.



RedLed said:


> Do you see a series of stupid mistakes here. Do you now see why I say the guitar project is going to sink his company? I hope you do. Why after all these years do you change materials to your original design?


 
RedLed, why are you so concerned about the guitar project "sinking" HIS company? are you an investor in EKI?

With regards to companies changing materials, you must be pretty niave. MANY companies change materials in their original design. Not to bash them, but for the purpose of comparison, i know that Microtech changed the Titanium bolsters on their LCC model soon after the debut to Aluminum.



RedLed said:


> Now he is telling us on his web site that the lock is titanium. OK...well, most people will think both sides are titanium. This is a misleading stunt, and it is very insulting. Not every person who buys his knives will understand this..


 
...and not many would care. It does not affect the function of the knife.



RedLed said:


> Nick, I realize Ernest Emerson is your Hero, unfortunately, he is human, and in business to make a profit. Often people will do the wrong thing to get their hands on money, and this is called greed. Greed has caused Emerson to lie to and step on the very people he says are the best , in his manifestos which he posts on his web site where he sells his wares.


 
Ernie is not my hero, on the contrary, he's a knifemaker whom i respect for his stand-up attitude. "Greed"; "Cheating", etc..you do love to hurl meaning-laden words. *what's your motive?*

Regards,
Nick


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## tensixteen (Feb 13, 2008)

tensixteen said:


> Hi RedLed, my screen name on USN is tensixteen. Since you asked me what was my screen name on USN, what was yours? Do you mind if i read what you posted? or is that too sensitive?


 

Dear RedLed, somehow you failed to address this question of mine too..

Regards,
Nick


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## RedLED (Feb 13, 2008)

Nick,

What do you care about ancient history of mine over at USN anyway?

I said something about the cheap screws Emerson uses, and the killed me.

I use the same name there as well, so check away.

Incidently, I saw your recent post over on USN alerting them to my thoughts here, and frankly, you sound like a sissy. "Look what REDLED said on CPF."

Anyway, I am done here, and I know Emerson is a liar!

Also, he has been cheapening his knives for years. That Ski house in Aspen is expensive.


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## mgeoffriau (Feb 14, 2008)

Glad we finally got an explanation. So what happened is that you were openly rude in a forum that Emerson pays for, probably as billigerent there as you were here, and then got upset that they didn't put up with your nonsense. So now you spread your idiocy in order to soothe your injured ego, making up creative fictions about Ernie Emerson's secret plan to deprive American Soldier Heroes of their inherent right to titanium detent-side liners, single-handedly causing the downfall of the American military through his covert use of stainless steel.

Woops, sorry, my wife says I need to take my tin-foil hat off and come to bed. Later folks.


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## Stillphoto (Feb 14, 2008)

Whew, at least this is over with.


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## tensixteen (Feb 14, 2008)

Stillphoto said:


> Whew, at least this is over with.


 
=) Yeap..=)

Cheers and Regards,
Nick


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## RedLED (Feb 14, 2008)

Well until I have something else to say.

By the way I looked at his guitar site today, and boy what a joke. He will never make it in the music business.

Maybe he can sell his guitars to the bands that break them on stage? They never destroy their good ones, just cheap props.

Here you go!

http://ernestemersoncustomguitars.com/

After you look at the site, tell me if you think the Guitar Knife is for real. That knife truly is a major disaster, and HUGE joke. Come on EE!


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## RedLED (Feb 14, 2008)

Can I ask why do you guys worship EE?

I love my custom Emersons, and 98-2000 production models, however, I feel no need to look up to, and admire him.


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## tensixteen (Feb 14, 2008)

Yawn....get a life..haha..and by the way, nobody here worships Ernie. If you've got a bone to pick with him entering the guitar industry, why don't you call him and tell it to him?..or better still, go attend one of the shows he goes to, and tell it to him in the face if you have the balls to. honestly, get a life.

Regards,
Nick


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## Coop (Feb 14, 2008)

Oh, and on the 'cheating heroes' thing... Do you really think these people give a rats *** about the materials in their knife? Hell no! they only care about the knife doing what its supposed to do when they need it! even if the knife was made out of cheap chinese plastic, if the knife would cut what they wanted to cut at the moment they want to cut it, the knife would be good enough...

Nitpicking over materials is something for collectors, not users...


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## tensixteen (Feb 14, 2008)

Coop,

I totally agree with you. I think i mentioned the same point too..=)

Cheers and Regards,
Nick



Coop said:


> Oh, and on the 'cheating heroes' thing... Do you really think these people give a rats *** about the materials in their knife? Hell no! they only care about the knife doing what its supposed to do when they need it! even if the knife was made out of cheap chinese plastic, if the knife would cut what they wanted to cut at the moment they want to cut it, the knife would be good enough...
> 
> Nitpicking over materials is something for collectors, not users...


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## Spalding (Feb 14, 2008)

Unlike USN, the chatroom "brotherhood", we here on Candlepower forums do not have to stay within certain unwritten rules of conduct (never do anything but worship Strider, Emerson et al). We can be honest here about the things we are into - lights of all kinds, knives, etcetera, even to the point of being harsh, or worse - honest.

I will say, Redled, your being banned from USN should be worn like a badge of honor. Sure, that chatroom has industry support but as you can see they are thin skinned when it comes to the truth.They're bullies and they act like spoiled, prepubescent little girls when you refuse to fall in line with their belief system.

How many times have I read, "No, (insert name of knife guy), I met him at a knife show and he's a man of honor/real stand up guy" and all that. Of course they come across as sincere - all con men do.

Ok, I had to say it. I hope I don't get removed here for writing this. I won't comment on this any further and will stick to lights and knives.


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## RedLED (Feb 14, 2008)

Coop said:


> Oh, and on the 'cheating heroes' thing... Do you really think these people give a rats *** about the materials in their knife? Hell no! they only care about the knife doing what its supposed to do when they need it! even if the knife was made out of cheap chinese plastic, if the knife would cut what they wanted to cut at the moment they want to cut it, the knife would be good enough...
> 
> Nitpicking over materials is something for collectors, not users...


Coop,

Hey, you may be right. When EE sends production to China, as you mention, you USN chumps will still buy the product no matter what. And that is a shame. 

People should be able to speakout on USN, however, since it is a clique, you have to fall in line. Really USN boils down to a cult. I feel there is a silent majority of people there that want the knives made with the best of materials, and they are scared to speak up.

I think the screws are Chinese. They are cheap.


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## RedLED (Feb 14, 2008)

Spalding said:


> Unlike USN, the chatroom "brotherhood", we here on Candlepower forums do not have to stay within certain unwritten rules of conduct (never do anything but worship Strider, Emerson et al). We can be honest here about the things we are into - lights of all kinds, knives, etcetera, even to the point of being harsh, or worse - honest.
> 
> I will say, Redled, your being banned from USN should be worn like a badge of honor. Sure, that chatroom has industry support but as you can see they are thin skinned when it comes to the truth.They're bullies and they act like spoiled little girls when you refuse to fall in line with their belief system.
> 
> ...


 
Spalding I agree 100%

The top of the tactical knife business is controlled by a con man, and an Ex-con.


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## DocArnie (Feb 14, 2008)

RedLed said:


> The top of the tactical knife business is controlled by a con man, and an Ex-con.


You mean Tom Poland the fake Bob-Lee-Swagger-wannabe-USMC-sniper with the impressive kill count on his Xbox and Burger, the car robbing shank designer?
But they have HONORRRRR! And FRRRRIENDSHIP!


http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies365.htm


http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies313.htm


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## mgeoffriau (Feb 14, 2008)

The only thing that every USN member has to agree on is that discussions should be held with honor and decency. You are free to disagree on just about any subject; you just can't go into an Emerson-funded subforum and say, "Ernie Emerson uses cheap Chinese screws, and is cheating HEROES, blah blah blah!" Using tact and being polite go a long way.

Anyway, I think this discussion has gone on long enough for everyone to see who is actually interested in the truth, and who simply has an axe to grind for getting kicked out of an internet forum.

EDITED:

Been thinking a few minutes more, and just wanted to add something about the USN. I think sometimes forget how the USN started, and have faulty expectations about what it should be. The USN began as a place for a group of Emerson fans to congregate. It was never intended to be a free-for-all like Bladeforums. For a few different reasons, it has grown exponentially, but the increase in size ultimately doesn't change it's purpose -- it's a place for like-minded individuals to chat about knives and just about anything else.

For myself, I'm not a huge Emerson or Strider guy. I don't own any Emersons and the only Strider I keep has sentimental value to me (it was given to me during a difficult financial period when I sold all my custom knives). I prefer custom makers like Rick Hinderer, Mike Obenauf, Patrick Nihiser, and my new favorite Bob Dozier. But your favorite knife isn't really the point of the USN; it's the community, people who enter discussions with respect for the other participants, who are more interested in being constructive instead of destructive.

And yes, I support Mick Strider. People say he's a fake; I say that he trains with Army Rangers. That means either the Rangers are okay with who Mick says he is, or the Rangers a shitty judges of character. You pick which you think is more likely.


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## RedLED (Feb 14, 2008)

mgeoffriau said:


> The only thing that every USN member has to agree on is that discussions should be held with honor and decency. You are free to disagree on just about any subject; you just can't go into an Emerson-funded subforum and say, "Ernie Emerson uses cheap Chinese screws, and is cheating HEROES, blah blah blah!" Using tact and being polite go a long way.
> 
> Anyway, I think this discussion has gone on long enough for everyone to see who is actually interested in the truth, and who simply has an axe to grind for getting kicked out of an internet forum.
> 
> ...


 
Well the Rangers are under orders, I may have issue with the CO that allows an Ex-Con train our troops. I come from a military family, and I support our Armed Forces. With that said, anyone who has served knows there are things that you may not like, but you have to go along. The Rangers may not really like Micky Ray Berger-Strider for all we know.


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## RedLED (Feb 14, 2008)

DocArnie said:


> You mean Tom Poland the fake Bob-Lee-Swagger-wannabe-USMC-sniper with the impressive kill count on his Xbox and Burger, the car robbing shank designer?
> But they have HONORRRRR! And FRRRRIENDSHIP!
> 
> 
> ...


 
Doc,

What is it with all these knifemakers and their fake names?


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## strideredc (Feb 15, 2008)

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Materials:*[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Specifications:*[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Handles[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Black G-10 epoxy / glass laminate [/FONT]​

*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lock[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aerospace grade Titanium[/FONT]​

*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Blade[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]154 CM[/FONT]​

*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Finish[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Black Finish[/FONT]​

*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Grind[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Conventional V Grind[/FONT]​
*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Overall Length[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]9.5[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Blade Length[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4.0[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Blade Thickness[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].125 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT] 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]in.[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hardness[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]57-59 RC[/FONT]
Still not clear enough! Why doesn’t they/he just make it totally clear about the change and what they are using for what.

People are STILL missing the whole point of this and if you don’t like the thread, you know what??? Don’t read it!

The really funny thing is I had a ton of PM’s about this and do you know what they all agreed but most didn’t want to voice there opinions here and especially on another three word named forum!!!

It seems one of the many great things about CPF and sasha is the freedom to discuss things, this would not be allowed on most other ‘forums’ I use that word loosely as they are more dictatorships than forums!

Back to the topic!

I think liar is a strong word! 
In this case I would call it very very misleading… actually? Misleading to make a profit, yep… Liar!

Redled, this will make you laugh! I read this on another forum…’’

I think the USN comment is the worst part of the whole thing. mhammitt is right, if posted thoughtfully and logically I don't think anyone would have a problem with constructive criticism of a product.’’

‘’ As usual there are mostly drama queens on the other forums.

That's why I like it here. No drama.

Ernest is a great guy. No doubt about that. Why should I even read what those morons write about him.’’


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## strideredc (Feb 15, 2008)

Nitpicking over materials is something for collectors, not users...[/quote]

RUBBISH! :duh2:
That’s not nitpicking as you call it! There are 5 main parts to the emerson knife (excluding screws) so 20% of it has changed!!!


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## strideredc (Feb 15, 2008)

RedLed said:


> Spalding I agree 100%
> 
> The top of the tactical knife business is controlled by a con man, and an Ex-con.


 
No spalding you are wrong!!! I know ‘’him’’ and he really, really, really is a stand up guy because he’s in the ''brotherhood''! And he shook my hand!!! WOW!:sick2::sick2:

Most of these knife makers are laughing all the way to the bank (emerson and strider).

$400 for a folder that a custom maker would make 1,000,000 times better for $150 more…oh, $150 for an emerson that has paper thin Ti liners, sorry one Ti liner

Yes, I am one of those idiots  that brought one and I like it, but they are crap!
and yes i am mad, so my girlfriend keeps telling me for paying $400+ for knives

p.s. what junior serviceman can afford that sort of money for a knife. its a bit of an insult to even target them, dont you think


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## RedLED (Feb 16, 2008)

strideredc said:


> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Materials:*[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Specifications:*[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Handles[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Black G-10 epoxy / glass laminate [/FONT]​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I agree the lock thing is misleading. What are they thinking?

You know the Emerson Knives have been cheapend and corners cut since 1999.

1. Thiner liners

2. No swedge

3. G 10 scales not as round, and thinner

4. Pivot not sunk in scales

5. And now...Steel non lock side liner

6. Locks are sticky, and action is stiff, and gritty out of the box

7. Poor quality control

8. Fit and finish are marginal

I am finished buying Emerson Knives. A Strider is a much better value. A fun, strong knife with new modrn features that were not around 14 years ago when Emerson first released the CQC-7 produced by Benchmade. Also, a Chris Reeve is a wonderful up to date design. I am still mad at Mick for all the lies, and the fact he is an Ex-Con. However, he does make a better knife than the new Emerson Knives.

Emersons to me are out dated. Also, how come Chris Reeve, and Mick Strider have not made a big deal about the price of titanium? there is nothing strange about a price increase, things do go up in price due to various production costs, and labor. 

Cutting corners, and cheapening up a once first rate product to me is not a good idea with the level of competition in the present day knife industry.

NOTE TO ALL USN MEMBERS: YOUR IDOL IS A LIAR!

I was banned at USN for asking a question. That place has a cult like mentality.


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## RedLED (Feb 16, 2008)

strideredc said:


> No spalding you are wrong!!! I know ‘’him’’ and he really, really, really is a stand up guy because he’s in the ''brotherhood''! And he shook my hand!!! WOW!:sick2::sick2:
> 
> Most of these knife makers are laughing all the way to the bank (emerson and strider).
> 
> ...


 
I agree, you can find great quality for just a little more. It bugs me that I can afford to buy the best, and Emerson wants to reduce the quality to junk knife levels so some "Hero" can buy it. What happend to people saving up a little to buy the best product made.

Hey, I shook EE's hand...does that mean he is my friend? WOW! What an honor to be friends with such an honorable, and distinguished person!

If Emerson is such an honorable person, and it was an honor for me to meet him, does that make me honorable as well? Was it an honor for him to have met me? If so, that is that another honor for me? Well then, I will feel honored for the honor of it being an honor for him to have met me, and we will both be honored to have met each other!!! What an honor! Hey, we are both honorable...this is yet another honor!


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## Spalding (Feb 16, 2008)

DocArnie said:


> You mean Tom Poland the fake Bob-Lee-Swagger-wannabe-USMC-sniper with the impressive kill count on his Xbox and Burger, the car robbing shank designer?
> But they have HONORRRRR! And FRRRRIENDSHIP!
> 
> 
> ...



Poland?
Berger?

Sounds like a couple of shmucks to me!


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## Spalding (Feb 16, 2008)

mgeoffriau said:


> The only thing that every USN member has to agree on is that discussions should be held with honor and decency. You are free to disagree on just about any subject; you just can't go into an Emerson-funded subforum and say, "Ernie Emerson uses cheap Chinese screws, and is cheating HEROES, blah blah blah!" Using tact and being polite go a long way.
> 
> Anyway, I think this discussion has gone on long enough for everyone to see who is actually interested in the truth, and who simply has an axe to grind for getting kicked out of an internet forum.
> 
> ...



I am baffled by your support of Mick Strider. What do you mean by that? He made up his military record as did his partner Dwyer. He was dishonorably discharged from the military (that's humiliating to most people) and was never, as he claimed, in the special/black/secret ops. Not ever. He never worked with "hard hitters" either except perhaps in the prison play yard.

Look, I wanted to support Mick and Dwyane too but when I learned the truth about them I became sad and disillusioned that anyone of such low character would pose as a hero. How embarrassing to our servicemen!

As to your assertion that some of us are being harsh (me included, I know) when referring to Mickey Ray Berger I must remind you none of this news would be common knowledge were it not for Berger's vicious and defamatory writings on Bladeforums for which he was taken to court. He lost that one and the rest is history as the settlement required him to come clean publicly about his past. What I'm doing here is simply reciting the truth about him.

I'm not surprised Berger served time for car theft. That's nothing extraordinary these days and people are convicted of armed robbery all the time but most of them would never have the nerve to claim, as Berger did, that they committed a crime against another as part of a secret ops project in which he was "TASKED" to "acquire" a car for a secret mission - In California? If you think five years for armed robbery is a long time to serve in prison imagine the time you'd serve if you gave a subordinate an order to steal some guy's car - at gunpoint.

There's a dozen more examples I could quote here regarding Mick Berger's behavior but I'll stop here. You can refer to DocArnie's post for links to the information.

We probably think alike in one way though - We don't have any heroes to admire and look up to these days so we tend to make up our own. Since John Wayne and Roy Rogers left us all we have is 50 Cent, Paris Hilton, and Lindsay Lohan. What sort of heroes are they? I too miss the old days but I'll never substitute a con man for a true hero.


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## mgeoffriau (Feb 16, 2008)

You guys need to get a life.


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## RedLED (Feb 18, 2008)

Spalding said:


> Poland?
> Berger?
> 
> Sounds like a couple of shmucks to me!


 
Schmucks and LIARS. Let's add Emerson to the list.

He outright lies in his advertising, and then the fools who kiss *** his booth at the knife show, shake hands, then tell everyone he is now their friend, and he is honorable.

Honor and friends, give me a break!


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## Greta (Feb 18, 2008)

FYI... this forum is called CandlePowerForums (CPF)... *NOT* BladeForums or USN or anything else! *THIS* forum has rules. *THIS* forum is moderated so that it can remain the comfortable, friendly, *FAMILY* type community that we all love and enjoy and that attracted most of you to begin with. The behavior displayed in this thread *WILL NOT* be tolerated here on CandlePoweForums. If you want to treat each other with this kind of disrespect and disprespect the rest of the community as well, then by all means... take it to one of those other forums... it is *NOT* welcome here. 

This thread is now closed. Any future occurances of this kind of behavior from any of you will be met with some time off from this forum.


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