# Cree XP-L High Intensity LED



## mds82

Cree just released a new product, the XP-L High intensity. Its like the regular XP-L but with no dome over it. The max flux bin is 3 levels lower than the normal XP-L though which is disapointing

http://cree.com/LED-Components-and-Modules/Products/XLamp/Discrete-Directional/XLamp-XPL-HI


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## alpg88

good news, that should end those issues of shifting tint when dedomed.


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## scs

Looking forward to seeing this type of undomed emitters become more common place in production lights and D26 drop-ins.
A D26 drop-in that can do 20k lux or above at a solid output level with flat regulation for more than 90 minutes on 1x18650 would be very nice indeed, if that's even possible.
Seriously considering holding off getting a thrower and waiting for the new wave with undomed emitters.


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## monkeyboy

mds82 said:


> Cree just released a new product, the XP-L High intensity. Its like the regular XP-L but with no dome over it. The max flux bin is 3 levels lower than the normal XP-L though which is disapointing
> 
> http://cree.com/LED-Components-and-Modules/Products/XLamp/Discrete-Directional/XLamp-XPL-HI



This is to be expected as the dome is there to improve the efficiency and lumen output. A ~20% reduction in efficiency is not that bad; better than what you would achieve from physically dedoming a regular XP-L no doubt.


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## mds82

the dome is there to focus the light pattern to a smaller angle isn't it? i dont understand how removing the dome will actually affect the total amount of lumen being produced though . assuming they are using the same exact die on both, the lm/w should be the same as well as the amount of waste heat. is that assumption wrong. If a regular XP-L and a XP-L high intensity are both driven a 2000mA, would they create the same amount of heat ( assuming one is a V5 bin and the other in s V2 bin, for the regular XP-l and XP-L high intensity respectively)


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## znomit

mds82 said:


> the dome is there to focus the light pattern to a smaller angle isn't it?


The dome is there to provide a better match between the refractive index of the materials and also a better shape to get more photons out of the LED die and into the air. The interface between die and air sufferes from high internal reflection. The argument for dedoming is it makes the LED die look smaller so it can be better focused. So you end up with a tighter beam brighter beam, even though you have less lumens.

See the encapsulation explanation here:
http://www.digikey.co.nz/en/article...mproving-the-efficiency-of-led-light-emission


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## RoGuE_StreaK

An interesting article popped up in my email yesterday, probably old news, about studying the nanostructures of glasswing butterflies, which apparently have very low reflection; I think there are a few such studies going on, to reduce screen reflections but inversely could also help extract more light
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150422084352.htm


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## Mr. Tone

This is great news, I am really excited about having domeless Cree emitters from the factory. Now we will now exactly what tint we are getting with these as opposed to the unknown tint after de-doming current available emitters.


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## Mr. Tone

znomit said:


> The argument for dedoming is it makes the LED die look smaller so it can be better focused. So you end up with a tighter beam brighter beam, even though you have less lumens.



This is not entirely true. The increase in performance is about the surface brightness in the focal point and not the apparent size of the emitter. I think it was Semiman who had a good explanation of how the surface brightness is affected when there is no dome but I don't remember who or where that thread is. If I find it I will link it but it was a good technical explanation of how it works.


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## markr6

Look like we're stuck with 70CRI unless you want to get pretty warm.


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## Mr. Tone

Anyone heard when we will actually be able to get some of these?


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## drillbitz11

Mr. Tone said:


> Anyone heard when we will actually be able to get some of these?



Cutter Electronics out of Australia is offering them for pre-order and expects to receive them mid May. So I guess any time. A lot of great new products and from Cree in the past months. The latest xp-g2 S4 flux bin was recently released and at 1500ma it produces 650 lumens which is actually more than than an XM-L2 T6 produces @1500ma. Anyway sorry to get off topic. great stuff!


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## Mr. Tone

Thanks, that's good news.


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## foxtrot824

I'd like to see one of these in an HDS for some serious throw...


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## LEDealer

markr6 said:


> Look like we're stuck with 70CRI unless you want to get pretty warm.



You have options, but not from Cree. These are also readily available. Can't say the same for the XP-L HI.

LUXEON MZ (8mm emitter) 5700K 90 CRI:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...crmQYGCQ1R8j/cQhe%2bcOnX/5bjolMS/j1Czb4Fneg==

LUXEON Z ES (2mm emitter) 5700K 90 CRI:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...4Prknbu83yx7PpVbn5Yo/WetFgtF2NimMPf4mrTSm9Q==


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## recDNA

That luxeon z es looks pretty neat.


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## Mr. Tone

The wait is painful on these!


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## recDNA

I wish Cree would produce a high CRI XP-L. The 3000k model may be their highest CRI but blue doesn't show up well at all.


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## foxtrot824




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## recDNA

If that is a blue object you have reaffirmed my point. It looks purple.


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## SpeedEvil

It's amusing that a LED specified for high optical brightness doesn't actually specify the optical source dimensions, an you have to guess it from the packaging diagram.
I wonder if these are especially suitable for optical silicone filled reflective optics.
The silicone will improve light extraction a bit, presumably too.


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## foxtrot824

recDNA said:


> If that is a blue object you have reaffirmed my point. It looks purple.



The blue is just part of the background that the optic is magnifying, those triples reflect everything


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## recDNA

I have one triple drop in that I really like but the flashlight is too big to pocket carry (Z2). I'm looking at small (18350) sized lights but cannot make up my mind between triple Nichia or triple neutral X-PL. In my experience floody lights always look dimmer than they are. The other issue is to find a light weight model to comfortably pocket carry. I started a thread and found nothing that fit.

Triple neutral high powered XP-L sounds nice.


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## peter yetman

I'm guessing you've looked at 
Moddoolar Triple Wasp? Not XP-L, but runs on 18350's.


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## recDNA

Never available is it? Anyway it is kind of big and heavy.


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## phantom23

foxtrot824 said:


> I'd like to see one of these in an HDS for some serious throw...


I'd love to see one inside one of the Zebralights, SC62 or SC600. And just out of curiosity - Nitecore EC21.


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## nikosb

I contacted Mouser Electronics asking if they stock the new XP-L high intensity, in particular the one with part numbers ending in V2051, U6051, U5051 and this is the answer I got today:



> We have verified that we are able to stock the brightest (V2 in the ending of V2051), however since they are so similar and not highly requested, we won't stock all three.
> These all have high minimums. It has been approved for us to stock the first one, but the others appear to have minimum orders of 500 pcs.
> 
> Would you like to order part # XPLAWT-H0-0000-0000V2051? If you would how many are you looking for?
> Would you like us to send you a quote?



I am not planning on ordering more than a couple but I thought some of you guys would be interested. I still have to find out how soon they are planning on stocking them


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## nikosb

I also got this answer from Arrow Electronics with prices and lead time



> Manufacturer Part: XPLAWT-H0-0000-0000V2051
> Manufacturer: CREE
> Quantity: MOQ 500
> Price: $5.09
> Delivery: Lead Time 8-10 weeks
> 
> Manufacturer Part: XPLAWT-H0-0000-0000U5051
> Manufacturer: CREE
> Quantity: MOQ 500
> Price: $ 3.01
> Delivery: Lead Time 8-10 weeks
> 
> Manufacturer Part: XPLAWT-H0-0000-0000U6051
> Manufacturer: CREE
> Quantity: MOQ 500
> Price: $ 3.92
> Delivery: Lead Time 8-10 weeks


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## recDNA

Will these all have the horrible yellow tint dedomed flashlights often have?


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## Mr. Tone

recDNA said:


> Will these all have the horrible yellow tint dedomed flashlights often have?



The beauty of these is that we should know ahead of time what tint these will be. With de-doming, it was a gamble on what tint you were going to have after the removal. Cree will use their standard measurements on these without the domes on so they will be binned like regular Cree LED products. The tint will likely be more uniform across the angle if these act the same as de-domed ones.


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## recDNA

Good...now how about hi cri? LOL


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## degarb

Isn't the xpg2 high bin about the same output and throw as these? Wouldn't the tint be better? Maybe, I am wrong….

Is it the 10 watts that is the attraction?


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## thedoc007

degarb said:


> Isn't the xpg2 high bin about the same output and throw as these? Wouldn't the tint be better? Maybe, I am wrong….



I think you are. Even a very heavily over-driven XP-G2 cannot do the same output as an XP-L. Throw is similar, with XP-G2 dome on and XP-L de-domed, but output is much higher with the latter.


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## degarb

thedoc007 said:


> I think you are. Even a very heavily over-driven XP-G2 cannot do the same output as an XP-L. Throw is similar, with XP-G2 dome on and XP-L de-domed, but output is much higher with the latter.



Still not making sense. Yes, higher current means more output; the xpl can be driven higher. But let us assume we are sane people: looking for a useful led for work headlamp, for example. At a sane 2 watts driven by 2 x 18650, how does lumens and lux compare in same standard 26mm smooth reflector? Xpg2 highest bin v. Xpl dedomed?


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## thedoc007

degarb said:


> Still not making sense. Yes, higher current means more output; the xpl can be driven higher. But let us assume we are sane people: looking for a useful led for work headlamp, for example. At a sane 2 watts driven by 2 x 18650, how does lumens and lux compare in same standard 26mm smooth reflector? Xpg2 highest bin v. Xpl dedomed?



In my opinion XP-G2 or high-intensity XP-L would not be a great choice for a headlamp, where flood is generally preferred. (Of course you may have a different preference...to each his own.)

It makes no difference whether a light is driven by 1x18650, or 2x18650, or by CR123s. Two watts is two watts...the LEDs don't care how it is generated.

To try and answer your question, though, I do think throw would be pretty similar. I have directly compared de-domed XM-L2 to dome-on XP-G2, and throw is quite similar, with a very similar beam profile also. XM-L2 and XP-L are near equivalent, so nothing will be dramatically different. 

Unfortunately CREE uses different data points for each LED...the only one I could find in common was luminous flux @ 1500 mA.

The highest bin cool white XP-G2 does 488 luminous flux.
The highest bin cool white XP-L does 623 luminous flux.

If you take a twelve percent hit in output with the XP-L high intensity, as Cree's number would suggest, the numbers are slightly different.

XP-G2 dome one: 488
XP-L high intensity: 548

So yes, at that drive level (1.5 amps), they are broadly similar. The XP-L is always going to be a little brighter, but a ten or fifteen percent difference is nothing to get excited about. Which one has a better tint is entirely subjective, and subject to the lottery (I've seen some dome-on Cree LEDs with a truly AWFUL tint). If you like cooler tint, then undoubtedly the XP-G2 would be a better choice for you. But for others who prefer warmer tint, the XP-L high intensity would be a perfectly sensible choice.


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## alpg88

degarb said:


> At a sane 2 watts driven by 2 x 18650, how does lumens and lux compare in same standard 26mm smooth reflector? Xpg2 highest bin v. Xpl dedomed?



at 2 watts you most likely will not notice any difference in real world use, as far as lumens, lux wise you will prbly be able to spot a difference if you shine both on white wall. xpg2 has smaller die, xpl has a larger die but due to no dome, it will be somewhat similar to xpg2 with dome, as far as beam shape, just like xpg dedomed is somewhat similar to xpe with dome.


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## Ladd

Just FYI: Mouser is now shipping these......


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## bose301s

SpeedEvil said:


> It's amusing that a LED specified for high optical brightness doesn't actually specify the optical source dimensions, an you have to guess it from the packaging diagram.
> I wonder if these are especially suitable for optical silicone filled reflective optics.
> The silicone will improve light extraction a bit, presumably too.


The chip is 1.95mm X 1.95mm, is a EZ1950.


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## foxtrot824

Swapped in to an EB2


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## Fireclaw18

Dale on the other flashlight forum reported that he swapped these into his Meteor M43.

Here's his result:

"
CRAZY ALERT! The Noctigon Meteor M43 is capable of ludicrous insane output. I tried slicing the domes off some XP-L emitters all in the 3D tint class, in an effort to mimmick the new flat emitter from Cree, the XP-L H1. That didn’t work so well, so I put the XP-G2 S4 2B’s back in it and was living happily ever after.


But today, the 12 XP-L H1’s in 5700K tint arrived from Mouser. So, like a madman I rushed to pull emitters and re-flow these slick looking new one’s on. I did NOTHING else! (ok, new 10507 optics all around, but that is all)
with my 4 Efest 35A button tops sitting at 4.15V rested, this monster did *12,113 lumens* at start in Turbo!!! Yes, insanity grand central! *At about 20 seconds it was getting super hot, still making 10,381 lumens*. 

H2 (High, level 2) does 7141 lumens H1 (High, level 1) does 1735 lumens. 

L2 (Low, level 2) works nicely (didn’t test it in the box in my excitement) but L1 might not come on once the light is hot. It works when the light is cooled or if shifted from L2 to L1, but not necessarily from off with a hot light."

For reference, this is a light in its stock form is rated:

4,000 lumens with 12x Nichia 219B
6,300 lumens with 12x Dedomed XPG2
7,000 lumens with 12x XPG2
8,000 lumens with 12x Dedomed XPL


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## Mr. Tone

I am still eagerly waiting to see some neutral white versions of these available on Noctigon boards. Mountain Electronics has some 5000K triples but I just need a single and 5000K is a little too cool for my liking.


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## Paul Baldwin

Hi,

I've got a project in mind for one of these. Does anyone know of a lense available that gives a tighter beam output than these? http://www.carclo-optics.com/optic-...xp-l high intensity&beamangle=1 to 10 degrees
I can't find any of the 50mm lenses Cree mentions in their blurb with the 4 degree output.

Ta

Paul.


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## Mr. Tone

I see that Mouser has some of these available in 4000K which I would love. However, I don't have a use for bare LEDs and wish that someone had these mounted on Noctigon or Sinkpad copper boards.


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## Paul Baldwin

Bit pissed at mo but maybe this is useful? http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut2537


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## Mr. Tone

^
Thanks, I didn't know they offered these on Noctigon boards.


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## Ladd

Mountain Electronics had them on Noctigon Triple Boards. Sold out quickly, but I am sure they will be restocked. Singles are rumored to be coming too.


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## Mr. Tone

Ladd said:


> Mountain Electronics had them on Noctigon Triple Boards. Sold out quickly, but I am sure they will be restocked. Singles are rumored to be coming too.



I saw the triples but I need singles. Mountain Electronics is my preferred source for LED components. I will probably wait until they have some in stock. I have an Eagletac T25C2 with a XP-L HI on the way to tide me over.


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## nikosb

Any idea if CREE is going to offer an XP-G2 High Intensity version any time soon?


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## scs

nikosb said:


> Any idea if CREE is going to offer an XP-G2 High Intensity version any time soon?



my guess is no. I don't think Cree will go back to mod an "older" emitter.


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## recDNA

When you dedome an xpl you lose output and gain throw. Will these also be less efficient than ordinary xpl?


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## carl

I need some clarification and help here:

From Cree's site: “The XP-L High Intensity LED allows us to boost the efficacy and intensity of our XP-G2 LED based designs without changing optics or drivers.” 

Are they saying that for the same power/Watts input, both efficiency ("efficacy") and throw ("intensity") will be greater than XP-G2?

Post #35 above suggests 10-15% higher output for the XPL-HI but Cree is saying the throw would be greater too - I guess due to the slightly greater output?

Thank you for your help!


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## carl

double post


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## carl

scs said:


> my guess is no. I don't think Cree will go back to mod an "older" emitter.



The smaller die XP-G2 no-dome would mean higher intensity ('greater throw') than XPL no-dome. If they don't make a no-dome version of the XP-G2, where will the 'greater throw' version of a Cree come from?


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## degarb

This may be the emitter that will cause me to reopen up my wallet to build something new and different. Just been waiting for some new significant thresholds to be crossed in a 4000 to 5000 tint. But, like most prefer the high bins on a board.


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## RoGuE_StreaK

A musing that seems relevant here; can you use a _small_ aspheric close to the emitter in these cases rather than a large one further away? I'm not overly knowledgeable about the ins and outs of aspherics, but is the diameter and distance a factor of trying to focus all areas of a square emitting surface rather than a point source? If so, as the apparent emitter surface is smaller here, does that mean you can use closer and smaller?

ie., Has anything been designed yet that can essentially be mounted very closely to the emitter to drastically reduce the required lens size?


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## scs

carl said:


> The smaller die XP-G2 no-dome would mean higher intensity ('greater throw') than XPL no-dome. If they don't make a no-dome version of the XP-G2, where will the 'greater throw' version of a Cree come from?



I wish Cree or some other manufacturer would continue to innovate and make LEDs not only brighter, more efficient, but also smaller, but I think they would just focus on brighter and dome less from now on.


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## scs

In a p60 drop in, at identical output (same lumens), does the xpl hi match the xpg2 in lux?
if so, why do some say the xpg2 still throws more efficiently than the xpl hi? Thanks


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## degarb

I really hate to step in, but I think it was cited xlp hi is something like 15 percent greater lumen ouput at same current level of 1 to 2 watts (v3 v s4, perhaps? I haven't studied the numbers fully, clouded by xpg rated at my preferred 350 to 700 ma, while xpl is 1500 or 1000ma. I suppose there is a cree calculator, somewhere out there. ) . So, why compare at same lumen when in real world you might get higher lux due to more overall output in a milliamp that most people would prefer due to battery limits and a reasonable runtime? Apples to apples, is ma to ma, more than lumen to lumen. 

I would think same beam shape would certainly mean same lux if the lumens be equal, since lux is the net concentration of those lumens over any area. You can download an andriod trig calculator from eve-star to measure your hot spot and corona. So, it should be very possible to nail down beam angle of both in a standard p60. Also, measure lux of each at same drive level… . However, for lumen comparison- well, for last 3 years (as alternative to bulky sphere and ceiling bounce)- I also built an index card sized diffuser, made of three plastic frosted diffusers (I bought a broken overhead diffuser lens for $2 from home depot, not being wholly confident in the milk jug diffuser material) sandwiching in two white sheets of paper (glued together) , I store it in my lux meter case. Cheap, easy to store, easy to make, easy to use. Measure relative diffused lux at 2 feet(with nothing around, pressing diffuser to lens) and it does remarkable to compare over all output of lights with similar beamshapes. The diffused lux ratio gives you a multiplier. I don't bother comparing lights with radically differing beamshapes, or color, despite being a near perfect diffuser and nearly perfectly white. Key word is near.


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## degarb

http://pct.cree.com/dt/index.html

But no numbers on android for xpl hd or hi, currently.


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## scs

degarb, thanks for the response. I understand that the XPL, output wise, is more efficient than the XPG2, which means more lumens/watt, which can also mean (and it does in this case) more lumens/mA. What I don't know is, in a P60 drop-in, whether it takes more lumens, or more mA if you like, from the XPL HI to throw the same distance as a XPG2, assuming each uses a SMO reflector designed for the respective emitter. I infer that this is not the case, because some say the beam shape of the XPL HI is nearly identical to that of the XPG2. But according to others, the XPG2 is still the more efficient thrower than the XPL HI. Two contradicting statements, hence my confusion and question.


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## sinister

Hi guys, I got my hands on a few of these bad boys but I have no idea how to mount them. I searched the interwebs but all they show is how to mount regular SMDs - so basically no heatsink. I'm planning to drive a single chip at 1000mA and have a heatsink to help cool it. I thought the electrical connections will be on top like the XPEs but they're on the bottom. How do I wire a connection and cool it at the same time? Any help would be greatly appreciated. And mods please move this post if it's in the wrong thread, I just thought it was relevent. Thanks in advance.


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## RoGuE_StreaK

Get yourself a metal-core PCB (MCPCB) for an XP-G, as it's the same footprint (just google "xp-g mcpcb"). Copper board prefered, direct-to-copper best.
That said, this all involves reflow soldering, not really made for hand-soldering.

I think there have been a few threads here in the distant past where people soldered wires directly to the back and a copper pillar to the middle pad for heat extraction, but you may be better off just getting hold of pre-soldered boards and on-selling these chips if it's not something you've done before (unless you know of someone local to help you)


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## sinister

Hey @RoGuE, thanks for the quick response. Are there any advantages one over the other whether reflow soldering or copper pillar in terms of heat management?


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## Paul Baldwin

Have you got any xpg leds on stars lay about? I've used a jet lighter in the past to remove leds and replace with upgraded versions.







From this thread http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?255034-SST-90-Remove-from-star

Ps, is that an Ultrafire A10 in that photo. I've been edc'ing one of those for years


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## sinister

@Paul Baldwin, that is a GREAT idea. I'm watching all these reflow videos on Youtube and it just seems like a hassle for mounting a single LED. It has it's purpose for multiple component PCBs, but there has got to be another simpler way. Would your method work if I heat up the star and pre-solder the contacts and then drop the LED onto the star?

P.S. Oh yea that's an Ultrafire A10, I've had for a while as my EDC as well. Now it's the Ultrafire U20S (the black flashlight in the picture)


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## RoGuE_StreaK

sinister said:


> Would your method work if I heat up the star and pre-solder the contacts and then drop the LED onto the star?


Well theoretically you could just use a soldering iron to apply solder to the contacts (electrical and thermal), then pop the LED on top and heat up from underneath to reflow. But you would need additional flux, as the flux core from your solder would disappear in the initial run. Might be able to do something without flux, but could be a bit iffy. And might work better if you apply solder (not too much!) to BOTH the star AND the LED beforehand, might(!) reduce the need for flux?


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## Paul Baldwin

Try Rogue's idea if your soldering iron is up to it. I suggested an existing star as when I have de-soldered there was still a little solder left on the star from the previous led. You only need a tiny amount, too much and you end up with a ball of solder that appears at the side of the led after re-flow anyway. The lighter I used was over the top I think tbh, you could probably get away with a single jet? Or use one of the other suggestions in that thread.
What do you plan on using these for? I thought they would be good for an optic fibre project I have in mind if I can find a suitable lense?


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## sinister

@Paul Baldwin, my project does involve optical fiber for a custom water-cooled PC. I was struggling to find a lens for my current domed LEDs and how to get the best LED to fiber light transition. I only found out about the XP-L HI a week ago, it couldn't have been better timing since the LED just hit the market. I was actually planning on using dedomed XML's I have laying around but the beauty with these new LEDs is that I can now have the 5mm optic fiber sit directly flat on top of the LED. Hopefully that would minimize light lost.


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## Paul Baldwin

Now that's an interesting concept! A bit of KISS may work ok


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## chipwillis

Where can you buy these on a 20star?


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## swan

chipwillis said:


> Where can you buy these on a 20star?


International Outdoor Store has them in V3 on a copper noctigon dtp star.


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## rudy22

scs said:


> degarb, thanks for the response. I understand that the XPL, output wise, is more efficient than the XPG2, which means more lumens/watt, which can also mean (and it does in this case) more lumens/mA. What I don't know is, in a P60 drop-in, whether it takes more lumens, or more mA if you like, from the XPL HI to throw the same distance as a XPG2, assuming each uses a SMO reflector designed for the respective emitter. I infer that this is not the case, because some say the beam shape of the XPL HI is nearly identical to that of the XPG2. But according to others, the XPG2 is still the more efficient thrower than the XPL HI. Two contradicting statements, hence my confusion and question.



Did you ever get an answer to this? I have the same question (I think)...

My specific question would be which of the XPL-HI or XPG2 (dedomed) would throw farther in a TX25Cvn (which should be the same as for the TX25C2vn). I think the answer is it should be close, but nobody knows yet?


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## carl

Based on the output numbers for the Noctigon M43 at the Outdoor Store:

Led & Tint OTF Lumens Peak Beam Intensity Kelvin 
CW S4 2B 7480lm 33,600cd 5700K 
NW S2 1D Dedome 6400lm 70,000cd 5000K 
NW S3 3D 7060lm 32,000cd 4885K 
NW 219BT-V1 4450lm 20,000cd 5000K 
CW XP-L HI V3 8350lm 44,000cd 5700K 

Notice the XPG2 dedome is rated at 70,000cd and the XPL-HI is rated at 44,000cd so that tells us which throws more. The M43 uses optics instead of a reflector but this fact is incidental - the smaller die (XPG2) wins the throw contest. The XLP-HI wins the output contest at 8350 lumens but its more flood, not throw.


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## rudy22

Thank-you Carl!



carl said:


> Based on the output numbers for the Noctigon M43 at the Outdoor Store:
> 
> Led & Tint OTF Lumens Peak Beam Intensity Kelvin
> CW S4 2B 7480lm 33,600cd 5700K
> NW S2 1D Dedome 6400lm 70,000cd 5000K
> NW S3 3D 7060lm 32,000cd 4885K
> NW 219BT-V1 4450lm 20,000cd 5000K
> CW XP-L HI V3 8350lm 44,000cd 5700K
> 
> Notice the XPG2 dedome is rated at 70,000cd and the XPL-HI is rated at 44,000cd so that tells us which throws more. The M43 uses optics instead of a reflector but this fact is incidental - the smaller die (XPG2) wins the throw contest. The XLP-HI wins the output contest at 8350 lumens but its more flood, not throw.


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## SemiMan

carl said:


> Based on the output numbers for the Noctigon M43 at the Outdoor Store:
> 
> Led & Tint OTF Lumens Peak Beam Intensity Kelvin
> CW S4 2B 7480lm 33,600cd 5700K
> NW S2 1D Dedome 6400lm 70,000cd 5000K
> NW S3 3D 7060lm 32,000cd 4885K
> NW 219BT-V1 4450lm 20,000cd 5000K
> CW XP-L HI V3 8350lm 44,000cd 5700K
> 
> Notice the XPG2 dedome is rated at 70,000cd and the XPL-HI is rated at 44,000cd so that tells us which throws more. The M43 uses optics instead of a reflector but this fact is incidental - the smaller die (XPG2) wins the throw contest. The XLP-HI wins the output contest at 8350 lumens but its more flood, not throw.



Given the XPL is 8350 lumens and the XPG dedome is 6400 lumens, that tells me that the XPL-Hi is being driven harder, but not a whole lot harder than the XPG2 dedome. That is not a fair comparison then. The XPL-HI is a much bigger die. To achieve similar throw, it needs to be driven as hard as the XPG2 dedome w.r.t. to it's die size. At a similar or close drive current, the XPG2-dedomed is always going throw farther as you have a much higher current per die area and hence higher surface brightness. I think the XPG2 will always be a bit better as it's easier to make a small die (current spread fingers on the wafer, etc.).


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## carl

SemiMan said:


> Given the XPL is 8350 lumens and the XPG dedome is 6400 lumens, that tells me that the XPL-Hi is being driven harder...



This same discussion on the Noctigon M43 thread on Budgetlightforum concluded that because the M43 driver is a constant current driver and the same driver is used on all the different versions of M43 with their different LEDs, all versions are driven equally hard or close to it. This means the increase in lumens of the XPL-HI over the XP-G2 is due primarily to increased efficiency, especially since dedoming the XP-G2 results in a significant 10-20% output loss and also it is an older LED design (the XP-G2 started showing up in flashlights in 2012 and the XPL is just starting to show up in flashlights now). 

Some forum members thought small differences in LED Vf would make a difference in amperage to the LED but this idea was negated by those who felt the driver would compensate and provide the same amperage to all versions of the M43.


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## carl

Would anyone like to guess about when the V4 of the XPL-HI might come out since the V3 just came out a month ago?


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## tab665

im having trouble finding any bare XP-L HI in the US. MTNelectronics showed them out of stock, but now doesnt show them at all. anyone know where i can order a couple?


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## PhotonWrangler

sinister said:


> @Paul Baldwin, that is a GREAT idea. I'm watching all these reflow videos on Youtube and it just seems like a hassle for mounting a single LED. It has it's purpose for multiple component PCBs, but there has got to be another simpler way. Would your method work if I heat up the star and pre-solder the contacts and then drop the LED onto the star?
> 
> P.S. Oh yea that's an Ultrafire A10, I've had for a while as my EDC as well. Now it's the Ultrafire U20S (the black flashlight in the picture)



A company called Chip Quik has an SMD rework kit that includes a special low melting point alloy which allows you to remove SMD parts relatively easily with a regular soldering iron.


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## mercrazy

i use a piece of aluminum on a hot plate or stove to reflow aluminum core boards. just lay the circuit board on the aluminum and wait for it to flow. add a tiny bit of solder paste with point of toothpick. works good and you can control temp.


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## carl

tab665 said:


> im having trouble finding any bare XP-L HI in the US. MTNelectronics showed them out of stock, but now doesnt show them at all. anyone know where i can order a couple?



http://intl-outdoor.com/led-xpl-hi-c-107_148.html

The older V2 is available but not the new V3.


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## markr6

It drives me insane that there are several nice tints, two here (5750-6000 and 5700-6100K) but manufacturers always use the blue ones!


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## Rockywang

Why do you use XML ? it is high lumens.


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## 2xTrinity

Sorry in advance for the mild thread necromancy:



carl said:


> I need some clarification and help here:
> 
> From Cree's site: “The XP-L High Intensity LED allows us to boost the efficacy and intensity of our XP-G2 LED based designs without changing optics or drivers.”
> 
> Are they saying that for the same power/Watts input, both efficiency ("efficacy") and throw ("intensity") will be greater than XP-G2?
> 
> Post #35 above suggests 10-15% higher output for the XPL-HI but Cree is saying the throw would be greater too - I guess due to the slightly greater output?
> 
> Thank you for your help!



I take their ststement to mean higher output for entire optical systems or luminaires that use the XP-G2 chip. Since the XP-L HI chip has higher surface brightness it may end up with more total throughput through the secondary optics. That statement implies that the distance between the mounting surface and the apparent location of the die image is the the same for both the XP-G2 and the XL-L HI, so that the parts could be substituted without needing to reposition any secondary optics.

I can't confirm if that's actaully true. 



RoGuE_StreaK said:


> A musing that seems relevant here; can you use a _small_ aspheric close to the emitter in these cases rather than a large one further away? I'm not overly knowledgeable about the ins and outs of aspherics, but is the diameter and distance a factor of trying to focus all areas of a square emitting surface rather than a point source? If so, as the apparent emitter surface is smaller here, does that mean you can use closer and smaller?
> 
> ie., Has anything been designed yet that can essentially be mounted very closely to the emitter to drastically reduce the required lens size?



Yes. the main reason flat LEDs like this are advantageous is that they have high surface brightness (or radiance). 

LED domes improve overall efficiency and lumen by allowing rays that would otherwise totally internally reflect to escape, but the consequence is they magnify the apparent size of the die by 1.5X, meaning an apparent area of the die by 1.5^2, or 2.25. (it's actually even worse when you consider the image of teh die is distorted when viewed at large angle). 

The lack of a dome also means you can place optics such as aspheric lenses much closer. With a dome you are limited to optics that have a long enough working distance (distance from the back surface of teh lens to the apparent location of the LED die) to clear the thickness of the dome. 

It also means that components such as light pipes or homogenizing rods can be placed in flush contact with the LED. A domed LED cannot be easily used with devices like tapered light pipe rods without excessive losses. A combination of a domeless LED, a tapered light pipe, and an aspheric lens can basically be used to form an extremely uniform and high intensity light source suitable for microscope illumination. That's a lot harder to pull off with domed LEDs.


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## throwerloverX

2xTrinity said:


> Sorry in advance for the mild thread necromancy:
> 
> 
> 
> I take their ststement to mean higher output for entire optical systems or luminaires that use the XP-G2 chip. Since the XP-L HI chip has higher surface brightness it may end up with more total throughput through the secondary optics. That statement implies that the distance between the mounting surface and the apparent location of the die image is the the same for both the XP-G2 and the XL-L HI, so that the parts could be substituted without needing to reposition any secondary optics.
> 
> I can't confirm if that's actaully true.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. the main reason flat LEDs like this are advantageous is that they have high surface brightness (or radiance).
> 
> LED domes improve overall efficiency and lumen by allowing rays that would otherwise totally internally reflect to escape, but the consequence is they magnify the apparent size of the die by 1.5X, meaning an apparent area of the die by 1.5^2, or 2.25. (it's actually even worse when you consider the image of teh die is distorted when viewed at large angle).
> 
> The lack of a dome also means you can place optics such as aspheric lenses much closer. With a dome you are limited to optics that have a long enough working distance (distance from the back surface of teh lens to the apparent location of the LED die) to clear the thickness of the dome.
> 
> It also means that components such as light pipes or homogenizing rods can be placed in flush contact with the LED. A domed LED cannot be easily used with devices like tapered light pipe rods without excessive losses. A combination of a domeless LED, a tapered light pipe, and an aspheric lens can basically be used to form an extremely uniform and high intensity light source suitable for microscope illumination. That's a lot harder to pull off with domed LEDs.



Does high CRI XP-L HI exist? I noticed some 80+CRI warm XP-L but not the HI version (?) some dedome can reach the XP-L HI output but the tint result is a real lottery... Any ideas? tks


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## Bitter

Will the XP-L HI take 3.3v at 3a? From what I could gather that would be over driving the LED some but I'm not sure how it'll take it since Cree doesn't list it beyond 2.95v at 3a, I know the XM-L2 can take being over driven somewhat. I've got a custom made light with 3 XM-L's driven at 3.3v 3a and one is gone dim and shifted colder than the rest, I was just going to drop in some XM-L2's but with the shape of the reflector I'm thinking a XP-L HI would throw better than an XM-L2. I have a Nitecore EC4GT with a narrow but deep reflector and a XP-L HI V3 and it's got lots of throw and a very tight beam, the custom light has narrow but deep reflectors too but they're much smaller over all however the relationship between width and depth appears roughly the same. I'd like to get more throw and less flood from the light.


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## degarb

I would like an expert to comment on reflector depth and width, in relation to hot spot. . I have bought quit a few reflectors in my home made lights. . I believe, the reflector width, plays largest part in Hotspot intensity-so wider for more intensity. . I think deeper is for a brighter coronal spill, outside the Hotspot (believe the terminology goes). 

My last t6 xml2 was 8k candela at 2 watts in a smooth 42mm, the xpl hi is 12k candela in a 35mm smooth, also at 2watts. The xpl hi is noticeably brighter, but has a weird purple color at Hotspot center that you can only see on white walls, which, for me is what I use them for. . The xpl hot spot is usually wide enough (it is possible to get too narrow since your visual "Hotspot" is 15 degree according to Wikipedia) and can be turned way down for insane runtime and still brighter task light than anything store bought. Though 35mm smooth for xpl hot spot balance is my current preferred reflector format. 


My xpl v6 and hi are 4200kelvinish, warm as I ever want. I am told that tint is far more than CRI by people who have tested, scientifically. . One study even found people prefer lower CRI in some circumstances. I have zero opinion, I just am interested in seeing color differentiation, so far only very low CRI or dim lights have failed - for ex. I hate myepistar 65cri led 50watt for color, but have no issue with my 400 to 1000 watt mh lights. I also think my xpl's have better overall color rendering than my 2013 to 2015 xpls or and t6 china's bike lights. . Though the last t6 xml2 home build has good warm, for my taste, tint. I don't know why, probably spectral spike, but I haven't yet hobbled together my own spectrometer nor have looked yet for a Playstore spectrometer app. CRI is compared with heated metal under 5000k and the sun over 5000.

I would love to see a 600 lumen 4 watt xpl v6 or w2 based light bulb with 3 xpl emitters and efficient AC-DC and heatsink. . Though I would want a dimmer. . Not sure what premium I would be willing to pay.


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## degarb

Woo Hoo! http://www.cree.com/News-and-Events...es-the-Next-Generation-of-High-Power-XPL-LEDs

The XP-l2 is here, meaning 200 lpw at 2 watts may be in reach. I am guessing at 1 watt, we will see the same lpw number as the xpl1. My take is this SC5 tech just helps pull the heat faster from the back of the led, which I am sure will be tested by members here up to 10 or 20 watts on useless short runtime lights, for a far droopier lpw rating. I think we all are tired of waiting for that 200 lpw led, when 303 lpw was reached in March 2014. Especially, after the table of heatsink requirement v. lpw was posted.

The xp-l2 is not on http://pct.cree.com/dt/index.html of of the date of this post. Naturally, I wonder when they will hit the online suppliers. I can't wait until Home Depot gets these in their Fall 2032 light lineup!

*My use: I am happy with the low heat/bright light output/improved color rendition, of my xpl v6, driven at 2 watts, 373 lumens (not quite as mentally satifying as "400 lumens at 2 watts"), 700 ma, with right (using 31mm, but 35mm on next build) reflector and 2x18650 buck cc/good heatsink-10 hours minimal runtime. Using a traditional cpu finned heatsink (jameco discontinued) + reflector holding sink, on my next build, I may get 200 lpw at 2 watt (measuring 373 lumens, now, with my intl-outdoor v6 neutral 4500k). Probably, a tad north of 170lpw at 3 watts, if I jump to a 2x26650 format. I am only interested in 10 hour target runtime, minimum-that is-, with a dimmer (on buck constant current controller, at over 90% efficiency).


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## Bitter

Think they'll release a version 2 of the XP-L HI?


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## degarb

Bitter said:


> Think they'll release a version 2 of the XP-L HI?



Since the xpl hi is an xpl, with no dome, I'd guess it goes without saying or press release. . I think my hi is now a v5 bin. . I am guessing binning might not change over just 7 percent which is within error range of one bin. With the r5 xgp2 binning stayed at r5 but knew it just could handle more heat with less droop in lumens. . Same with xml2 t6. . Assuming same here.


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## Bitter

I wasn't sure if the HI version was as popular as the XP-L itself, enough so to warranty any version 2 iterations. The HI seems to be a smaller segment than the standard XP-L?


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