# Not the best news from Surefire...



## foxtrot29 (Mar 10, 2009)

As many of you other Surefire fans, I also emailed Surefire asking about a release date -- specifically for the LX2. I may be reading too much into this response, but this was just one sentence cut word for word from the email they sent me (the rest was just blah blah, thanks for your request, blah blah):

*"**The LX2 flashlight is currently in development and may be released later this year. Unfortunetly, we do not have an official date of release."*

I don't mind the no official release date, but I just don't like the "may be released..." part.

<sigh>


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (Mar 10, 2009)

Last summer we were talking about a spring release time for the new models-now we might have to wait until late fall!!!


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## xcel730 (Mar 10, 2009)

Is it common for surefire to post an item on their catalog and not release it at all? I don't really follow up with their catalogs.


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## GreyShark (Mar 10, 2009)

I like Surefire. I own a number of their products. Unfortunately it appears the company is slipping. They're not keeping up with the times, not offering the options high end flashlight users look for these days and they're not bringing their interesting new models to market. I've also noticed they've been needlessly shaving off chunks of aluminum from my favorite old models in an effort to make them weaker and uglier so even what they have been offering is less enticing. I'd like to get an M3 but they've given it this treatment too and instead of looking like a "Combat Light" it looks like it belongs in a flower arrangement.


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## foxtrot29 (Mar 10, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> I like Surefire. I own a number of their products. Unfortunately it appears the company is slipping. They're not keeping up with the times, not offering the options high end flashlight users look for these days and they're not bringing their interesting new models to market. I've also noticed they've been needlessly shaving off chunks of aluminum from my favorite old models in an effort to make them weaker and uglier so even what they have been offering is less enticing. I'd like to get an M3 but they've given it this treatment too and instead of looking like a "Combat Light" it looks like it belongs in a flower arrangement.



I dunno, the E1B was a pretty new offering, and it seems nice and beefy... Also, the E2DL is another offering that is somewhat new, and seems to meet brightness specs of other new lights...

I won't be happy if they don't release at least a few of these lights this year, but I'll still stay with Surefire -- no one else has given me the same comfort level of reliability yet.


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## DimmerD (Mar 10, 2009)

Taps foot while patiently waiting for the Titan T1A which I already paid for in full in January...... BatteryJunction still shows a January 2009 or may be later release date. Foot's not tired yet!


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## RGB_LED (Mar 10, 2009)

I really like SF's quality and construction but it wouldn't be the first time that they don't deliver, ie. UB2 Invictus and UA2 Optimus. :shakehead

But, as indicated in other threads and other posters, SF's primary business focus is devoted to the US military and PD's. If they deliver on a new offering that looks great, then that's fine. If they don't deliver, I'm not too concerned as there are other smaller manufacturer's and custom builders who will gladly take my money and who are more geared towards us Flashoholics. 



DimmerD said:


> Taps foot while patiently waiting for the Titan T1A which I already paid for in full in January...... BatteryJunction still shows a January 2009 or may be later release date. Foot's not tired yet!


Ouch! I signed-up for the pre-order when they first announced it back in Feb. 2008(!) but I decided to go with a retailer who didn't require pre-payment. I hope they will eventually release the T1A but, after such a long wait, I'm not holding my breath.


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## GreyShark (Mar 10, 2009)

As far as I can tell the E1B is really just a product improved E1L. That in and of itself is ok, I'm glad they're making improvements, but at the same time I'm not sure those incremental improvements were best marketed as a new model. I'm not a big E series fan in general, not because they're bad or anything but just because they generally don't meet my requirements as well as some of their larger offerings. That said I have been considering getting one of these two to clip on my hat.

The M2 got the shave treatment and managed to come out still looking ok and given the nature of its grip ring cut I doubt it lost any strength in the body either since the weakest points weren't effected. The old round belly style felt better in the hand though, at least to me, and the few milligrams of weight saved by squaring it off really isn't worth it. That happened long ago. More recently they've been whittling down the Millennium series weapon lights to a handful of splinters and anything bigger than the 6 volt light looks just awful. I really hope this trend reverses with the Scout Lights out now. If you want a lightweight weapon light then you'd get the Scout. Millennium series weapons lights are supposed to be heavy. The extra strength is what makes them interesting.

 I don't want to drag this thread too far out into the left field but it would be nice to see them bring their best new designs to market and stop butchering their classics.


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## Blindasabat (Mar 10, 2009)

The one constant and consistant feedback SureFire gets from the field is "make it lighter!" The guys in the sandbox that have to hump a load of gear are the ones asking for the 'shaving' so I say give it to them! as long as the lights are still strong enough to survive when they use it. Beauty and form follows function.


GreyShark said:


> The M2 got the shave treatment and managed to come out still looking ok and given the nature of its grip ring cut I doubt it lost any strength in the body either since the weakest points weren't effected. The old round belly style felt better in the hand though, at least to me, and the few milligrams of weight saved by squaring it off really isn't worth it. That happened long ago. More recently they've been whittling down the Millennium series weapon lights to a handful of splinters and anything bigger than the 6 volt light looks just awful. I really hope this trend reverses with the Scout Lights out now. If you want a lightweight weapon light then you'd get the Scout. Millennium series weapons lights are supposed to be heavy. The extra strength is what makes them interesting.


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## GreyShark (Mar 10, 2009)

They didn't save any weight on the M2 or M3. Whittling down the Millenium series also does very very little. There are no meaningful gains to be made here. The soldier's loadout is a topic for a whole nother discussion and lightening that load would mean addressing logistics and transport in a way that the establishment just won't. In the meantime the Scout Light is light. The E series is light. Surefire already makes lightweight versions of their lights. If you want lightweight get one of them. If Surefire wants to make even lighter lights then they should stop using aluminum and start using more plastic. Shaving a Millennium weapon light down to Scout Light size or a C series down to E series size is a pointless, fruitless exercise in futility.


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## Dan FO (Mar 10, 2009)

I played with several of them (LX1 & LX2) at SHOT 2009. They are very nice lights and I like the body design. They looked and acted like finished product to me.


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## foxtrot29 (Mar 10, 2009)

Well, I fired off a response asking if that meant they might not release it at all, and I got an immediate response within about an hour:

"There are no plans to discontinue/cease development of the LX2 Flashlight. We are still planning on having the product released later this year."

So, at least it's not sounding too bad!


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## conan1911 (Mar 10, 2009)

As for the "shaving" of material, Blindasabat said it perfectly. Nothing more to say about that. Greyshark, plastic vs. aluminum is almost a non-issue. Look at the "competition" version of the X300 and compare weight. What we sacrifice in weight we more than make up in structural integrity. 


Yes, sometimes it takes longer to release things than we initially anticipate but typically it is because we have an ever growing need to be perfect. Real men and women depend on our products every day.

Again, if anyone has questions you can always email me. 

[email protected]


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## wacbzz (Mar 10, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Yes, sometimes it takes longer to release things than we initially anticipate but typically it is because we have an ever growing need to be perfect.



Kinda like the "Made in the USA" statement from the catalog?:nana:


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## carbine15 (Mar 10, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> ...Real men and women depend on our products every day.....



Are you saying were _not_ REAL men and women? Just because most of us don't use our lights to illuminate the next guy were trying to kill or to light up a dark hallway of a building that's on fire. Just because were sitting at home in our underwear in front of a computer screen playing with our flashlights and eating Cheetos doesn't make us real? Why is my Tan G2 turning orange?


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## carrot (Mar 10, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> As for the "shaving" of material, Blindasabat said it perfectly. Nothing more to say about that. Greyshark, plastic vs. aluminum is almost a non-issue. Look at the "competition" version of the X300 and compare weight. What we sacrifice in weight we more than make up in structural integrity.
> 
> 
> Yes, sometimes it takes longer to release things than we initially anticipate but typically it is because we have an ever growing need to be perfect. Real men and women depend on our products every day.
> ...


Thank you Stuart for your insightful reply. Is the Saint still on track to be released before the summer? 

And, maybe it's asking a bit much but is there an ETA for the A2L, AZ2, and M3LT yet?


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## PetaBread (Mar 10, 2009)

Me ->:whoopin:<- SureFire


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## Federal LG (Mar 10, 2009)

It reminds me the Invictus / Optimus release... (where? when?)

But I still smile to Surefire, because I loved that new silver Backup!


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## GreyShark (Mar 10, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> As for the "shaving" of material, Blindasabat said it perfectly. Nothing more to say about that.



Sure, and I'm not debating the reasons it's being done, I'm disputing the logic. The skinny lightweight weapon light already exists in the Scout. Shaving down a M951 when a Scout Light already exists doesn't make any sense. It defeats the entire purpose in having a 951 in the first place. You can even run a P60/P61/P60L in a Scout by using the LU60A. Need 9 or 12 volts? Add an extender. Need a turbo head? Then you're definitely not talking about lightweight.



> Greyshark, plastic vs. aluminum is almost a non-issue. Look at the "competition" version of the X300 and compare weight. What we sacrifice in weight we more than make up in structural integrity.



I have no problem with Nitrolon at all, I'm sorry you got that impression. It certainly has its uses and I'll probably pick up a G2 before too long. A Scout or Nitrolon weapon light makes a lot more sense than whittling down a Millennium series light.



> Real men and women depend on our products every day.



Yup. You'll find many here on CPF.


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## :)> (Mar 10, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Yes, sometimes it takes longer to release things than we initially anticipate but typically it is because we have an ever growing need to be perfect. Real men and women depend on our products every day.


 
Stuart,

Thank you for participating! Please continue to participate.

To everyone else,

I didn't read this statement as a slight to anyone. I read it as an affirmation that Surefire understands the importance of the work that their target market does and an acknowledgement that their customers are real people that often have life and death on the line.

Words are so easily taken out of context especially when the communication is written; I think that is the case here.


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## Federal LG (Mar 10, 2009)

Wise words Goatee...


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## bullfrog (Mar 10, 2009)

carbine15 said:


> Just because were sitting at home in our underwear in front of a computer screen playing with our flashlights and eating Cheetos doesn't make us real? Why is my Tan G2 turning orange?





Almost choked on my drink when I read this.

Very nice!


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## Crenshaw (Mar 10, 2009)

no offense to anyone, especially stuart there, i wont be hoping much until i see either the at least Optimus or Invictus ....which was announced LAST year, AND in last years catalogue, on the website. 

Crensha


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## :)> (Mar 10, 2009)

carbine15 said:


> Just because were sitting at home in our underwear in front of a computer screen playing with our flashlights and eating Cheetos doesn't make us real? Why is my Tan G2 turning orange?


 
That was funny!



Really funny:thumbsup:


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## Federal LG (Mar 10, 2009)

carbine15 said:


> Are you saying were _not_ REAL men and women? Just because most of us don't use our lights to illuminate the next guy were trying to kill or to light up a dark hallway of a building that's on fire. Just because were sitting at home in our underwear in front of a computer screen playing with our flashlights and eating Cheetos doesn't make us real? Why is my Tan G2 turning orange?





I love Cheetos... and sometimes I shoot bad guys to rescue good guys too!


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## Size15's (Mar 10, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> You can even run a P60/P61/P60L in a Scout by using the LU60A. Need 9 or 12 volts? Add an extender. Need a turbo head? Then you're definitely not talking about lightweight.


Which extender can one add to the ScoutLight to host a third SF123A battery?

It wasn't until the KX2C and the M600C that the ScoutLight become a realistically viable alternative to the likes of the M95. SureFire has been developing both Series of WeaponLights with improvements being made to each at different times. SureFire is still supplying Millennium Series WeaponLights for military contracts and making in-line improvements based on feedback from users and experience from theatre. SureFire would not have reduced the mass to the extent it has if strength or other physical performance would suffer as a result. The improvements weren't quick changes - SureFire ran all sorts of tests including field-tests.

Another thing to consider is the dual LED system SureFire has been developing - the technological and mechanical leap ahead SureFire has made to get both white-light and IR LEDs behind the one optic with a simple robust switching system.
SureFire are solving the major issue for war-fighters with so-called 'white light' LEDs - their lack of full-spectrum and their inability to be filtered for IR-only output. They are removing the need for BeamFilters and incandescent light. To cram all this into a standard Lamp Module for the Millennium Series has been a significant achievement.

I'm sure in time SureFire will shrink this technology to the E-Series. Until then there is still a real need for the Millennium Series.

Al


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## GreyShark (Mar 10, 2009)

:)> said:


> Stuart,
> 
> Thank you for participating! Please continue to participate.



Yes, as a Surefire fan I would appreciate hearing news, feedback and developments from the company.



> To everyone else,
> 
> I didn't read this statement as a slight to anyone. I read it as an affirmation that Surefire understands the importance of the work that their target market does and an acknowledgement that their customers are real people that often have life and death on the line.
> 
> Words are so easily taken out of context especially when the communication is written; I think that is the case here.



I didn't take it as a slight either, to me it sounded like advertising. You'll hear that kind of thing from anybody who makes any product for the tactical market though usually it's a lot more hyped up, with Navy SEAL references and such. Last I heard there was a little under 3,000 Navy SEALs. Kind of a small market to sustain all those manufacturers. My point was there are a lot of people who rely on high performance flashlights on CPF. In fact that is why we come to CPF, to learn how to squeeze more out of our high performance lights. We are the target market, we are the people who spend thousands of dollars on the best flashlights. Unless Surefire doesn't really mean it when they advertise "The world's finest compact high-intensity flashlights for outdoors, self-defense, military, law enforcement, and general applications." and are instead targeting the Maglite market.

None of which has any direct bearing on the release of new products. Vaporware isn't fun but I am glad Surefire does take the time to make sure their products work correctly before they ship them. It wouldn't serve anybody's purposes to sell buggy lights.


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## Search (Mar 10, 2009)

I could care less.

I would never buy another flashlight from a company other than Surefire unless it was something I needed (like an explosive approved light, given Surefire doesn't make safety lights).

I don't mind waiting the extra time because I know when it is released it will deliver.

Thank god the E2DL shipped originally as a bug with only one level of output though.

They told people what was coming. Who cares if it takes 3 years to get here, you know what they have to offer in the future.

They didn't say they were going to release these and then failed, they said we are planning to produce these lights but hope to maybe try to get them out at X time, but then realize they needed to do more work and it will now be Y time.

That's good. I want them to go back and back and back so when they do release it, it is exactly right.

Thank god for Surefire. I like the marketing. It lets me know they are trying to make their already perfect lights better. Better by making sure what they say they are going to produce comes out perfect.


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## greenLED (Mar 10, 2009)

A little something to keep in mind... SHOT Show also serves as a venue for manufacturers to gauge interest in their products. Many times you'll see products at SHOT that never get released. This is not exclusive to SF. 

Maybe a company thinks their latest product is great, but don't get enough orders from distributors at SHOT even though they like the product. Or, maybe the response is outright negative. Or, they get enough orders, but while going from prototypes to production the manufacturer may run into unforeseen technical difficulties. 

I take SHOT products as indicators of where the industry is going, not necessarily what actual products may be available (although some of them will end up on shelves somewhere). No need to get hung up on "I saw it at SHOT and company X sux for not delivering."

A little something to ponder...


***
:wave: Stuart! Nice to see you're still around.


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## Size15's (Mar 10, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> My point was there are a lot of people who rely on high performance flashlights on CPF. In fact that is why we come to CPF, to learn how to squeeze more out of our high performance lights. We are the target market, we are the people who spend thousands of dollars on the best flashlights.


I would prefer to have experienced a few more years of the CPF Community then you have before being so confident about claiming that the CPF Community is SureFire's target market. It is the exact opposite of my CPF and SureFire experience.


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## Dan FO (Mar 10, 2009)

The LX1 & LX2 are updates to already exiting good sellers. The drivers and LEDs have been upgraded but the functions are identical to the L1 & L2. They will be here and are not vaporware. As an interesting note, the clips are configured like the EB1.


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## Kestrel (Mar 10, 2009)

:)> said:


> [SureFire's] customers are real people that often have life and death on the line.


+2 (or whatever)

Good thread, this. Realistic folks here.


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## GreyShark (Mar 10, 2009)

Size15's said:


> Which extender can one add to the ScoutLight to host a third SF123A battery?



Surefire is a flashlight company, they make flashlight parts. They already make an LU60A for the Scout. How hard could it be to scale something like an A19 to Scout size?



> It wasn't until the KX2C and the M600C that the ScoutLight become a realistically viable alternative to the likes of the M95. SureFire has been developing both Series of WeaponLights with improvements being made to each at different times.



I'd argue the LU60A did it. As soon as there was an LU60A you could run anything in a Scout that you could run in an M951, Malkoffs, whatever. Anyway that was my point. Now they have the Scout, no need to sell an anorexic version of the Millennium that doesn't achieve the desired result anyway. The Scout was a highly logical development but as it stands there is a bump in the product line that should be smoothed out.



> SureFire is still supplying Millennium Series WeaponLights for military contracts and making in-line improvements based on feedback from users and experience from theatre. SureFire would not have reduced the mass to the extent it has if strength or other physical performance would suffer as a result. The improvements weren't quick changes - SureFire ran all sorts of tests including field-tests.



Less metal is less metal. If you look at the ever thinning MH90 you'll see that it is still just a tube, there isn't any honeycomb or similar reinforcing structure. It would be right to say that the metal has been removed from where it matters the least but it's still gone and there's nothing taking up the slack other than the notion that a given area hopefully needs to be only so strong. I'm not suggesting they should return to the original "tubular" MH90 body, but the version before they dropped down to the extra skinny mid section would be great. One step down cuts a little weight, makes it look cool and still leaves it without the thin body section. If the Millennium series isn't the tank anymore it doesn't have much reason to exist.



> Another thing to consider is the dual LED system SureFire has been developing - the technological and mechanical leap ahead SureFire has made to get both white-light and IR LEDs behind the one optic with a simple robust switching system.
> SureFire are solving the major issue for war-fighters with so-called 'white light' LEDs - their lack of full-spectrum and their inability to be filtered for IR-only output. They are removing the need for BeamFilters and incandescent light. To cram all this into a standard Lamp Module for the Millennium Series has been a significant achievement.
> 
> I'm sure in time SureFire will shrink this technology to the E-Series. Until then there is still a real need for the Millennium Series.
> ...



Sounds great but correct me if I'm wrong... this product hasn't been released yet, has it?

I'm not saying get rid of the Millennium series. I like it, right now it's my favorite weapon light going. I sold off my Scout because I prefer the M952C. What I'm saying is the Millennium series wasn't designed to be lightweight, it isn't lightweight and trying to make it into a Scout is undermining what makes the Millennium interesting in the first place. Perhaps [email protected] could post exactly how much weight has been saved from the original M951 to the most current M951 and how much a Scout weighs to put it all in perspective.

Still, none of this addresses other cases, such as squaring off the Centurion. While the aesthetics and feel may be subjective there is just no way to argue that any meaningful weight has been saved by flattening out its belly.


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## jabe1 (Mar 10, 2009)

I personally have been awaiting the P61L, to no avail apparently. I see no mention of it in the new catalog.


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## PetaBread (Mar 10, 2009)

Very interesting


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## GreyShark (Mar 10, 2009)

Size15's said:


> I would prefer to have experienced a few more years of the CPF Community then you have before being so confident about claiming that the CPF Community is SureFire's target market. It is the exact opposite of my CPF and SureFire experience.



You misinterpreted what I said or else I said it wrong. I wasn't saying that CPF is specifically Surefire's target market but that the people in Surefire's target market come to CPF and high end flashlight users are who Surefire is targeting. Many who come here only read and never register or post.

Still, how many members does CPF have? Probably a good bit more than the SEALs. I'd wager that Surefire has sold way more lights to private purchases than to government contracts and that way more Surefires are in the hands of guys eating Cheetos than guys eating MRE's.


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## PetaBread (Mar 10, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> You misinterpreted what I said or else I said it wrong. I wasn't saying that CPF is specifically Surefire's target market but that the people in Surefire's target market come to CPF and high end flashlight users are who Surefire is targeting. Many who come here only read and never register or post.
> 
> Still, how many members does CPF have? Probably a good bit more than the SEALs. I'd wager that Surefire has sold way more lights to private purchases than to government contracts and that way more Surefires are in the hands of guys eating Cheetos than guys eating MRE's.


 

Good Point.


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## Size15's (Mar 10, 2009)

GreyShark,
So your opinion is that SureFire have gone too far, removed too much and as a result the Millennium Series is less tough, more breakable than before?
Do you have any data to support this opinion?

I balance you so far unsubstantiated opinion with the assertion that it is not in SureFire's nature to compromise one of it's most important product series in the way you seem to think they have.
I suggest that the Millennium Series was far too over-engineered and that the reduction in bulk has made no appreciable difference in the toughness, robustness, durability of the product.

If the M95, M96 and M97 are now breakable or compromised then please show us broken ones.


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## Size15's (Mar 11, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> You misinterpreted what I said or else I said it wrong. I wasn't saying that CPF is specifically Surefire's target market but that the people in Surefire's target market come to CPF and high end flashlight users are who Surefire is targeting. Many who come here only read and never register or post.


My experience of the CPF Community is that the sorts of members you speak of are a minority group. A few hundred members; I doubt as many as a thousand.



GreyShark said:


> Still, how many members does CPF have? Probably a good bit more than the SEALs. I'd wager that Surefire has sold way more lights to private purchases than to government contracts and that way more Surefires are in the hands of guys eating Cheetos than guys eating MRE's.


Neither of us have any data to support discussion on SureFire's sales data.
Just because SureFire products are being purchased by private individuals as well as through procurement contracts doesn't mean all the products are primarily designed or intended for private individuals even if that side of the business shifts more product. In order to help support SureFire's investment in products for specialist groups such as the US Navy SEALs it is useful to have a diverse revenue stream.

We all have opinions on what SureFire should or shouldn't be doing and it is clear that SureFire can often do things that seem very strange, even mad to us given our perspectives. 
It is not normal for a private business to make 'life' so apparently difficult for itself when we as outsiders can see such obvious solutions and ways forward. It must be that we aren't aware of everything that goes into determining what SureFire does and why, and when.

Al


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## GreyShark (Mar 11, 2009)

No thanks. It would cost me hundreds of dollars to replace my M952C, if I even could. I also don't have thousands to throw away to break the ones I don't currently own for the sake of an internet discussion. The M95 even in shaved form is among the least fragile of Surefire's weapon lights which is specifically why I chose it. If you'd like to break a weapon light I would suggest taking a 9v or 12v Millennium or a Scout, affix it to your rifle's rail and bang it on something. The thinner, unsupported battery tubes are more vulnerable. This should be readily apparent.

Is the light going to fall apart in your hands? No. Are thin body sections and cutouts in the threading features that really add up to a meaningful weight savings on a modern rifle outfitted with a 30 round magazine and optical sight? No. Are they features I'd like to spend my money on? No. I am the guy who would carry a Millennium over a Scout though. While I'm certainly not their whole target market I am legitimately one constituent of it. The guys who really care about the weight will and are going over to the Scout.

The very earliest Millenniums I've seen are probably overbuilt. The first time they shaved the body was an improvement. I prefer the old M2 bezel but the new M2 bezel is also good.

As far as Surefire compromising an important product series I would point out the standard thumbscrew mount. Forgive my ignorance but it's my understanding that you guys in the UK are forbidden from owning and using firearms for self defense but if you're ever in America I'd consider it a privilege and honor to let you try out various weapons lights on my guns. Failing that I can only point you to one documented source of a thumbscrew mount failing off the top of my head, though it's certainly not the only one I've ever heard of.

http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/wlights.html

Quoted from the site,



> *7/7/07* - I was recently out on the shooting range with a group of buddies, going through some carbine drills with my LMT MRP and it had my M600A Scout light mounted on it. The single thumbscrew was tight when I had checked it earlier. After the drill, which required some running around, we were walking back to the line when someone said 'hey, did anyone lose a Scout light?', holding my light up that they had picked off the ground. The thumbscrew had loosened and my light had fallen off my weapon, unknown to me. That's a $375 light that I could have lost! Luckily, I was on a range where it was easily found, and it was during a non life threatening situation. But what about the people who lay their lives on the line in places that aren't as convenient as a shooting range? No wonder I've seen so many weapons lights and other items dummy corded or zip tied to weapons - they fall off!



...which is why I use the A.R.M.S. mount.


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## greenLED (Mar 11, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> I'd wager that Surefire has sold way more lights to private purchases than to government contracts and that way more Surefires are in the hands of guys eating Cheetos than guys eating MRE's.


Too much CPF cool-aid, man! Yeah, I luv this site too, but... we're tiny and insignificant in the larger scheme of SF customer base. 

That said, in the last few years I've seen SF targeting their products to outdoor people. However, to take the leap from there and say that CPF has SF's market cornered... don't know if I'll buy that even with a pound of salt.


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## GreyShark (Mar 11, 2009)

Size15's said:


> My experience of the CPF Community is that the sorts of members you speak of are a minority group. A few hundred members; I doubt as many as a thousand.



I don't know about that... I lurked here for years before I ever registered. Many others do too. It also seems like there is a huge number of Surefire users here, from all walks of life.



> Neither of us have any data to support discussion on SureFire's sales data.
> Just because SureFire products are being purchased by private individuals as well as through procurement contracts doesn't mean all the products are primarily designed or intended for private individuals even if that side of the business shifts more product. In order to help support SureFire's investment in products for specialist groups such as the US Navy SEALs it is useful to have a diverse revenue stream.



Of course. Surefire wants to build lights for sexy organizations, not for the regular people who actually end up buying and using the most product. I'm sure it's more fun and no doubt it's a good advertising strategy. But what will happen when those products are no longer supported by sales to the unwashed masses? What will happen to the company? Maglite is a big player in the flashlight world in general but not exactly what they used to be anymore. I fear Surefire may be heading in that direction. You know, Eveready used to be top tier also.




> It is not normal for a private business to make 'life' so apparently difficult for itself when we as outsiders can see such obvious solutions and ways forward. It must be that we aren't aware of everything that goes into determining what SureFire does and why, and when.



I don't know how it is in the UK but making bad business decisions is practically a national sport for American companies. Why do you think there are so few American made products left these days? Heck, our "American" cars are mostly Mexican or Canadian, some are even Asian. Do they show our economic news on your media? 

Surefire is far, far from an Edsel, Enron, Social Security Administration or other whoopsie. For the most part they make good products, which is why I like them. Because I like the products I hate to see them butchered, uglified or allowed to become obsolescent.


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## GreyShark (Mar 11, 2009)

greenLED said:


> Too much CPF cool-aid, man! Yeah, I luv this site too, but... we're tiny and insignificant in the larger scheme of SF customer base.
> 
> That said, in the last few years I've seen SF targeting their products to outdoor people. However, to take the leap from there and say that CPF has SF's market cornered... don't know if I'll buy that even with a pound of salt.



I never said that.

Anyway it's abundantly clear to me that my opinions on this matter are as popular as my belief that the 6P should have a quality finish. I'm not exactly winning friends and influencing people and I realize that my opinion really does not matter to Surefire anyway so I am officially crying uncle for this thread.

UNCLE! :nana:


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## Kestrel (Mar 11, 2009)

greenLED said:


> Too much CPF cool-aid, man! Yeah, I luv this site too, but... we're tiny and insignificant in the larger scheme of SF customer base.
> 
> That said, in the last few years I've seen SF targeting their products to outdoor people. However, to take the leap from there and say that CPF has SF's market cornered... don't know if I'll buy that even with a pound of salt.


FWIW I can count five people I know of who have heard of SureFire (and owned or liked their lights) independent of myself. I've never met anyone who's ever heard of CPF.

And I've heard of a number of flashlight analogies here on CPF: guns, knives, cars, and even stereo equipment analogies in CPF posts comes to mind, and I don't find it a very useful comparison. YMMV.

Edit: Whoops, the 'Uncle' post just came up for me. Goodnight and godspeed.:grouphug:


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 11, 2009)

I think it's really cool that Stuart from SF participates here. Very cool.


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## kramer5150 (Mar 11, 2009)

jabe1 said:


> I personally have been awaiting the P61L, to no avail apparently. I see no mention of it in the new catalog.



Thats because its physically impossible to make, given the thermal requirements of todays 200++ Lumen emitters. The only way to dissipate the heat is through thermal contact and conduction with the host body, and Gene Malkoff owns the patent rights to that kind of design. So the only way for SF to bring such product to market is to either pay out Gene to borrow elements of his design, or completely re-tool and design an entire head/bezel assembly that dissipates heat adequately, which would blow away the original projected price target.

Sure it could be done... just run a Q5 XR-E at 1300mah. But without thermal conductive cooling emitter longevity and reliability becomes a factor. Of course they could do a similar circuit as the P60L, which drops current at certain operating temperatures, but thats still not an optimal design... at least not optimal enough to bear the Surefire brand.

:sigh:


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## SureAddicted (Mar 11, 2009)

GreyShark, unless you have inside information, a lot of what you say is based on hearsay. You bring up Navy Seals in a few of your posts, I can guarantee that SF has many more contracts to LE agencies around the world than just Seals in the US. I'd rather wait 3, 4, or 8 months and have the light engineered to the best of SF's ability than have it rushed to customers. LE rely on their gear in life and death situations, which is more than I can say for a hobbyist.


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## jabe1 (Mar 11, 2009)

kramer5150 said:


> Thats because its physically impossible to make, given the thermal requirements of todays 200++ Lumen emitters. The only way to dissipate the heat is through thermal contact and conduction with the host body, and Gene Malkoff owns the patent rights to that kind of design. So the only way for SF to bring such product to market is to either pay out Gene to borrow elements of his design, or completely re-tool and design an entire head/bezel assembly that dissipates heat adequately, which would blow away the original projected price target.
> 
> Sure it could be done... just run a Q5 XR-E at 1300mah. But without thermal conductive cooling emitter longevity and reliability becomes a factor. Of course they could do a similar circuit as the P60L, which drops current at certain operating temperatures, but thats still not an optimal design... at least not optimal enough to bear the Surefire brand.
> 
> ...


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 11, 2009)

Not a bad thread. More balanced than most SF threads. We should appreciate Stuart's participation, and be respectful in our comments to him. 

I am still thinking, as I have mentioned in the past, that the CPF community is a fairly large market for SF. I know that this notion is sometimes debated, but none the less true, I believe, even though there are is not hard data to back up this supposition. The opposition to this premise can not come up with hard data either.

Bill


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## kramer5150 (Mar 11, 2009)

jabe1 said:


> kramer5150 said:
> 
> 
> > Thats because its physically impossible to make, given the thermal requirements of todays 200++ Lumen emitters. The only way to dissipate the heat is through thermal contact and conduction with the host body, and Gene Malkoff owns the patent rights to that kind of design. So the only way for SF to bring such product to market is to either pay out Gene to borrow elements of his design, or completely re-tool and design an entire head/bezel assembly that dissipates heat adequately, which would blow away the original projected price target.
> ...


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## 1996alnl (Mar 11, 2009)

Size15's said:


> I would prefer to have experienced a few more years of the CPF Community then you have before being so confident about claiming that the CPF Community is SureFire's target market. It is the exact opposite of my CPF and SureFire experience.


 
I agree,i think were just a small group of enthusiates here.


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## 1996alnl (Mar 11, 2009)

kramer5150 said:


> Thats because its physically impossible to make, given the thermal requirements of todays 200++ Lumen emitters. The only way to dissipate the heat is through thermal contact and conduction with the host body, and Gene Malkoff owns the patent rights to that kind of design. So the only way for SF to bring such product to market is to either pay out Gene to borrow elements of his design, or completely re-tool and design an entire head/bezel assembly that dissipates heat adequately, which would blow away the original projected price target.
> 
> Sure it could be done... just run a Q5 XR-E at 1300mah. But without thermal conductive cooling emitter longevity and reliability becomes a factor. Of course they could do a similar circuit as the P60L, which drops current at certain operating temperatures, but thats still not an optimal design... at least not optimal enough to bear the Surefire brand.
> 
> :sigh:


 
All i do is wrap the pill portion with Auminum tape,add some thermal paste and the P60 dropin makes contact with the body.Excellent heat dissapation.
I think all Surefire had to do (just speculating here,it's easy to talk when your on the other side of the fence) is design the P61L's heatsink to look like Gene's:green: but put a few fins on it...nah,that wouldn't be good.


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## jabe1 (Mar 11, 2009)

kramer5150 said:


> jabe1 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't quote me on this but I think the malkoff patent was only very recently approved... within the past ~6 months. So I speculate that may have had a significant impact on whatever progress SF had made. _If _that is the case, I think SF should be commended for respecting Genes patent.
> ...


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## LED61 (Mar 11, 2009)

I don´t like to whine about delays in flashlights release dates from Surefire. I own a few of their fine lights, and I could speculate on lots of reasons for the delays. At the end of the day I realize they´re their products and WHEN they come out I´ll either buy or not. A CPF member said it well a while ago, some are just over anxious and an impatient bunch.


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## wacbzz (Mar 11, 2009)

jabe1 said:


> I personally have been awaiting the P61L, to no avail apparently. *I see no mention of it in the new catalog.*



That's because those in charge replaced that with the much more heavily touted - especially here on CPF - "Made in the USA" explanation page. :ironic: 

I think...I haven't received my copy yet...


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## Crenshaw (Mar 11, 2009)

there is no way surefire sells more to the private sector then the military..

and what they DO sell us..if anything goes wrong...we like to make good on thier warrenties...thus.. they would actually lose more money

i think its interesting that gene got there first with a 200+ lumen led P60 before surefire did...:tinfoil:

Crenshaw


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## baterija (Mar 11, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> I think it's really cool that Stuart from SF participates here. Very cool.



+1, whether we agree or disagree with the information he provides, and his postings always seem to set off much wailing and gnashing of teeth, it's great that he keeps coming back to engage with us.


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## kramer5150 (Mar 11, 2009)

Crenshaw said:


> i think its interesting that gene got there first with a 200+ lumen led P60 before surefire did...:tinfoil:
> 
> Crenshaw



Not only did he beat them to the punch, but he refined the design thermally, optically and now physically with his new host. I think Gene really should be commended for his forward thinking and innovation.... he deserves to own the patent rights, his drop in is a superb design.

I have been toying around with DX parts and DIY modding... pushing Q5 and R2 emitters at 1350mah. And I still can't top Genes modules. My DIYs push ~170-190L tops but thats speculative based on ceiling bounce comparisons with the M60. They are also no where near as reliable, the output drops a small but noticeable amount as the emitter heats up, regardless how much foil-wrap I treat them with. I really think the key to the M60/30 success is the super-efficient optics and thermal cooling design. I am not sure what current his designs push the XRE with, but he has achieved a stable balance between output and thermal stability. IMHO there's more to it than merely blasting the emitter with 1300-1400mah

Anyone waiting around for a P61L.... why? Genes modules are setting the pace and pushing the P60/6P format far beyond the capabilities of any government-contractor (s-l-o-w).
Sorry this is way off topic... now back to the SF discussion


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## GreyShark (Mar 11, 2009)

SureAddicted said:


> GreyShark, unless you have inside information, a lot of what you say is based on hearsay.



You'd be surprised.



> You bring up Navy Seals in a few of your posts, I can guarantee that SF has many more contracts to LE agencies around the world than just Seals in the US.



I mention the SEALs only as an example of marketing hype. I don't know how it is in Oz but in the US every knife, flashlight, backpack and potato chip is marketed as being the official issue of the US Navy SEALs. Surefire is much better than most companies about this because they don't over-hype it in the first place and for another thing they actually have a legitimate claim because their products really are being used. My point is that any way you look at it the SpecOps community is still a very small market and by all appearances Surefire long ago grew to the point where they were selling more lights than that market could possibly buy. They're selling Surefires in hardware stores in the US these days. Lowes has over 1600 stores in America, the one closest to me seems to have about 10 Surefires in stock at any given time. That's 16,000 6P LED's and G2 LED's right there if my nearest store is typical. I have no idea how often they turn over that inventory but you can be sure the yearly total is huge.

If you want to consider LE sales then you should realize there are only about 300,000 LE officers in the US. Less than 1/10th of 1% of our population. I have no idea how many lights Surefire makes but that is still a tiny market for a company that has a global presence. Probably smaller than Lowes. Especially when you consider that only a portion of that total will purchase or be issued a Surefire light.



> I'd rather wait 3, 4, or 8 months and have the light engineered to the best of SF's ability than have it rushed to customers.



Me too. What some of us are disappointed about is the vaporware in the catalogs and the fact that a lot of products are really falling behind the times which can make justifying a purchase hard since the prices are still high even if the technology is dated. I don't mind Surefire taking their time to ensure they release a quality product at all, that was never the issue. R&D is a good thing. At a certain point though delays will prevent you from keeping pace with the market. If you fall too far behind that can hurt your company. I'm hoping that won't happen to Surefire.



> LE rely on their gear in life and death situations, which is more than I can say for a hobbyist.



Uh, was that supposed to be toughguy talk? LE walks the same streets any ordinary citizen does, they're a reactionary force by nature so unless it's a case of blind luck or a deliberately planned raid they only show up on the scene _after _something has happened and the majority of LE officers will never fire a shot in anger. It's not exactly like we're talking about an army of Terminators with badges roaming the streets and that's a good thing. I have read a study that suggested an officer in Portland, Oregon... a city of over half a million citizens... could expect to be on the force 193 years(if humanly possible) without getting involved in a fatal shooting. Further, police service simply is not available in all areas. For instance there is no police force where I live. I realize Australians are not allowed to own firearms for self defense but in the US ordinary citizens use firearms around 2 million times a year to either defend themselves or outright prevent a crime. I don't have any hard stats on exactly how many of those incidents occur in the dark but it is common knowledge the world over that the risk of attack goes up after the sun goes down. We all rely on our lights and other gear to save our lives when things go wrong.


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## Sgt. LED (Mar 11, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Yes, sometimes it takes longer to release things than we initially anticipate but typically it is because we have an ever growing need to be perfect. Real men and women depend on our products every day.
> 
> [email protected]


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## conan1911 (Mar 11, 2009)

Sorry I am home today with a sick child and havent had a chance to keep up with all the posts. First off, I meant nothing against all of you when I said "real men and women". I understand who our customer base is better than most. I just meant that when our core market that got us to where we are puts their lives on the line so that the rest of us can sit here and debate it SureFire is responsible to give them(and you) product that we can all believe in. I served four years in the Marine Corps and have spent the vast majority of my life in the civilian market so I see both sides. Al may have already covered this but I will touch on it briefly. How long has the US military been using the M16?? Anyone? since the 1960's. Have better rifles come along since then? Sure. Nothing changes overnight in the US military. They love the MU Systems as a whole. The "big Army" continues to buy and love it. You and I both know the Scout is lighter, bright and more durable but the Army sticks with what it knows. Plain and simple. So to make the MU system more appealling we continue to refine it. I hope this makes sense.


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## foxtrot29 (Mar 11, 2009)

LED61 said:


> I don´t like to whine about delays in flashlights release dates from Surefire. I own a few of their fine lights, and I could speculate on lots of reasons for the delays. At the end of the day I realize they´re their products and WHEN they come out I´ll either buy or not. A CPF member said it well a while ago, some are just over anxious and an impatient bunch.



You hit it on the head with "anxious and impatient". Me included, but I AM their target market.


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## foxtrot29 (Mar 11, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> Uh, was that supposed to be toughguy talk? LE walks the same streets any ordinary citizen does, they're a reactionary force by nature so unless it's a case of blind luck or a deliberately planned raid they only show up on the scene _after _something has happened and the majority of LE officers will never fire a shot in anger. It's not exactly like we're talking about an army of Terminators with badges roaming the streets and that's a good thing. I have read a study that suggested an officer in Portland, Oregon... a city of over half a million citizens... could expect to be on the force 193 years(if humanly possible) without getting involved in a fatal shooting. Further, police service simply is not available in all areas. For instance there is no police force where I live. I realize Australians are not allowed to own firearms for self defense but in the US ordinary citizens use firearms around 2 million times a year to either defend themselves or outright prevent a crime. I don't have any hard stats on exactly how many of those incidents occur in the dark but it is common knowledge the world over that the risk of attack goes up after the sun goes down. We all rely on our lights and other gear to save our lives when things go wrong.



So you're saying ordinary citizen relying on SF = LE relying on SF?

I don't think so. As an "ordinary citizen" how many houses do you have to clear in a month which could contain b&e suspects or drug addicts? How often are you out between the hours of 2300-0700 doing foot patrols of dark alleys, unlit streets, and derelict buildings? How much more likely are you to be attacked in the dark than LE? 

You want to say the playing field is level? Again, I DON'T THINK SO. :thumbsdow

That being said, I have full respect for the flashlight hobby users -- I'm an LEO, but I'm also a collector myself! I don't need a dozen Surefires, but I sure want a dozen! 

Use or like them for whatever you want, but LE's reliance on them is not to be compared to the average citizen, and from most threads which swing this direction on CPF, I'm betting on the fact that most members here would agree.


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## bullfrog (Mar 11, 2009)

Like most, I don't mind waiting for Surefire to release their new models. I know that an incredible amount of R&D go into their products and I appreciate that. This is the difference that makes a Surefire a Surefire.

My only gripe is, why have lights presented in the catalog in such a fashion that makes their release seem imminent? Why have in giant typeface in the 2008 illumination tools catalog "New for 2008" and then have the ua2, ub2 and p61L? It exudes a notion that they are pretty much ready to go.

I know it is very exciting to share the revolutionary new tech involved in these lights but, why not just advertise them as under development or in the works sans a release month or even year?

It still baffles me that it got to the point with the optimus and invictus that there was a pre-order/pay list...

With that said, I am willing to wait without a complaint and I expect to wait - the lights are worth it. I just don't get the catalog thing - its all about setting expectations.


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## Chrontius (Mar 11, 2009)

I gotta agree with Bullfrog - seems most of the ill feelings are related to pre-paid pre-orders for the UA2, UB2, and T1A. Seems to me that if these had just been presented as "Prototypes", "From the Labs", "New R&D Projects" or something like that, all the benefits of the catalog would have been there, but none of the drawbacks of the down payments vanishing into the aether.

Stuart, thank you for participating here - it's really cool to see some dialogue going here.


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## Federal LG (Mar 11, 2009)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Not a bad thread. More balanced than most SF threads. We should appreciate Stuart's participation, and be respectful in our comments to him.
> 
> I am still thinking, as I have mentioned in the past, that the CPF community is a fairly large market for SF. I know that this notion is sometimes debated, but none the less true, I believe, even though there are is not hard data to back up this supposition. The opposition to this premise can not come up with hard data either.
> 
> Bill



I thought that too, Bill.

Maybe if we start a poll asking:

*Do you have Surefire lights ?*
*X* yes or *X* no

With time, we could get an idea of how many CPFers are SF owners.


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 11, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> I thought that too, Bill.
> 
> Maybe if we start a poll asking:
> 
> ...



A poll can be done with 10 choices, so make last choice 10 or more. Ask in body those checking 10 or more to post how many more than 10. I think number could be in the thousands.

Bill


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## bullfrog (Mar 11, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> I thought that too, Bill.
> 
> Maybe if we start a poll asking:
> 
> ...





Bullzeyebill said:


> A poll can be done with 10 choices, so make last choice 10 or more. Ask in body those checking 10 or more to post how many more than 10. I think number could be in the thousands.
> 
> Bill



This would be really interesting :twothumbs


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## GreyShark (Mar 11, 2009)

foxtrot29 said:


> So you're saying ordinary citizen relying on SF = LE relying on SF?



Absolutely. Anybody who relies on a quality, durable light under bad circumstances is the same.



> I don't think so. As an "ordinary citizen" how many houses do you have to clear in a month which could contain b&e suspects or drug addicts?



Ordinary citizens live next door to them every single day.



> How often are you out between the hours of 2300-0700 doing foot patrols of dark alleys, unlit streets, and derelict buildings?



I'm mostly awake at night. In fact I started a thread on this subject a while ago. It seems a disproportionate number of our membership are night people. We all walk the same streets. Actually there are many neighborhoods people have to live in that the police just don't go to. Fortunately I no longer have to live in them.



> How much more likely are you to be attacked in the dark than LE?



Much more likely. LEO's are known to carry weapons, radios and have backup.



> That being said, I have full respect for the flashlight hobby users -- I'm an LEO, but I'm also a collector myself! I don't need a dozen Surefires, but I sure want a dozen!



I only have 5.  But they're good models. 



> Use or like them for whatever you want, but LE's reliance on them is not to be compared to the average citizen, and from most threads which swing this direction on CPF, I'm betting on the fact that most members here would agree.



That's utterly irrelevant to me. No matter what anybody says or thinks the bottom line for me is the safety of my family and myself. I'm not trusting that to some cheesey plastic Eveready.


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 11, 2009)

GreyShark, you had a rebuttal for mostly everything that LEO foxtrot29 said in his post, and you are allowed your right to rebut a post, just as he had his right to rebut your post. I am going to agree with him that LEO's put themselves in harms way a whole lot more than I do. Somehow I find your manner of posting inflammatory, sort of disrespectful, in a flip manner. We in the CPF community are here mostly for fun and to share our hobby with others, and yes, we get upset with this or that, and SF for not doing it the way we expect them to; we do not need to carry our upsetness too far, and end up belittling others in the process. If foxtrot29 gets carried away in his posting, I would say the same thing. :sigh:

Bill


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## GreyShark (Mar 11, 2009)

I can understand that. I've been trying to mind my manners, I haven't commented on half the disturbing or illogical points of view that have been put forth because we don't come here for heated political debate. I just happen to find it inflammatory and disrespectful when somebody tries to insinuate the lives of my family or myself don't count as much as theirs because they work for the government.

I gave up on the product discussion in this thread because it's obvious it won't change anything. I'll give up on the logic debate too because it also won't change anything. Everybody is welcome to believe whatever they want to believe and I will continue to do what I feel is best for me and mine.


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## saabgoblin (Mar 11, 2009)

Chrontius said:


> I gotta agree with Bullfrog - seems most of the ill feelings are related to pre-paid pre-orders for the UA2, UB2, and T1A. Seems to me that if these had just been presented as "Prototypes", "From the Labs", "New R&D Projects" or something like that, all the benefits of the catalog would have been there, but none of the drawbacks of the down payments vanishing into the aether.
> 
> Stuart, thank you for participating here - it's really cool to see some dialogue going here.


So are the Pre Orders initiated by Surefire or their retailers, or by both?:thinking:


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## GreyShark (Mar 11, 2009)

P.S.

FoxTrot, I'm sorry I sidetracked your thread.


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## Federal LG (Mar 11, 2009)

Make your bets, gentlemen...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/225690


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## SureAddicted (Mar 12, 2009)

GreyShark, unless your LEO you have no idea the situations they go through on a daily basis. This isn't tough guy talk, this is reality whether you like it or not. I could of posted a full page othesis on your last response, but you seem to sidestep the main issue. Foxtrot29 is on the ball, could not agree with him more. Maybe it's a good idea to take a take a step back and hear from LEO's themselves rather than forming an opinon which is way off the mark. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that's what makes CPF a great site as a knowlegebase for all, not just members.
I think this has gone OT long enough, let's get back to what the thread is all about.


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## Monocrom (Mar 12, 2009)

My experience with Surefire has gotten to the point of simply accepting certain things as they are. 

Surefire is very predictable... Like a girlfriend who can never be ready to go out on time. You just accept it, sit on the couch, and try to find something good on TV while you wait.

The new Surefire models will be ready when they are ready. That's all there is to it. Meanwhile, I'm going to see if CSI is on tonight.


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## foxtrot29 (Mar 12, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> Ordinary citizens live next door to them every single day.



Although I disagree with virtually every response you made, I'm just going to pick out the above, which was in response to my question 

"I don't think so. As an "ordinary citizen" how many houses do you have to clear in a month which could contain b&e suspects or drug addicts?"

You kind of hit the mark with that one. Yes, ordinary citizens live next door to them every single day. But you don't have to go INSIDE them every single day to deal with them, now do you?

When your flashlight fails during your period of living beside a drug house, and mine fails when I'm inside looking for some ******* that could be armed with a knife and hiding in a closet, you're right -- your light failure was just as critical as mine.


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## foxtrot29 (Mar 12, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> My experience with Surefire has gotten to the point of simply accepting certain things as they are.
> 
> Surefire is very predictable... Like a girlfriend who can never be ready to go out on time. You just accept it, sit on the couch, and try to find something good on TV while you wait.
> 
> The new Surefire models will be ready when they are ready. That's all there is to it. Meanwhile, I'm going to see if CSI is on tonight.



:laughing:

It's true! We will take it and like it.

I laugh at myself for starting this thread, since I know I'm just anxious for their new products. God forbid they don't release the LX2 right now, because I don't have enough lights as it is! hahaha


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## foxtrot29 (Mar 12, 2009)

Oh, and I want to thank [email protected] for posting in my thread -- I impatiently await the arrival of the LX2! 

But I'll wait indefinitely if I have to! lol


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## 1996alnl (Mar 12, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> Surefire is very predictable... Like a girlfriend who can never be ready to go out on time. You just accept it, sit on the couch, and try to find something good on TV while you wait.


 
I'm still laughing as i type this.
Me being an idiot,sit in the car and wait for my wife to get ready when were going out...everytime.
Next time i'm sitting on the couch and catching the end of the game:thumbsup:

Back on topic: I have one piece of advice for everyone who awaits the release of a new product from SF and finds themselves dissapointed.
Don't look at their catalogue.

How am i suppose to know what direction the company is taking? I check their website every now and then,and CPF ofcourse.
I've said it before,the reason this company takes their time releasing products is because they do everything in their power to f#%kup their product.
When they are 100% confident in it's reliability then it's released.
A friend of mine went on a backpacking trip last summer and decided they were going to explore some caves.
His light collection consists of about a good 40 lights or so and about 6 different manufacturers.
Guess which brand he used?
All Surefire.

Enjoy the beam
And Monocrom i'm still laughing..


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## litetube (Mar 12, 2009)

UHM, I think we are missing a HUGE elephant in our faces here people. 

Do you all realize that we have a SF rep. actually talking with us here on CPF!!!!????

CPF successfully drove SF away from these forums a long time ago. Amazingly someone from SF has had the desire to come back and speak with us and give us a little insight into SF that isnt heresay and conjecture. 

AND NOW HE IS BEING DRIVEN AWAY AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That is probably once again the last we will hear from Stuart and SF 

Sorry for the rant here but for Gods Sake!!!

Hopefully Stuart will be back with more insight and info and won't be assaulted with anymore hostility??


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## Federal LG (Mar 12, 2009)

*Sincerely and respectfully:*

If someone from a light manufacture can´t stand some critics, so I think it´s better they don´t participate in any internet flashlight forum.

I´m tired to see people here talking with Fenix, EagleTacs, Nitecores people and sales representants, and explaining their critics.

What´s the problem to do the same with a SF representant ?


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Mar 12, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> *Sincerely and respectfully:*
> 
> If someone from a light manufacture can´t stand some critics, so I think it´s better they don´t participate in any internet flashlight forum.
> 
> ...


There is one big difference there....

Fenix, EagleTac and Nitecore's target market IS CPF.


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## Federal LG (Mar 12, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> There is one big difference there....
> 
> Fenix, EagleTac and Nitecore's target market IS CPF.



Go take a look in our "Do you have SF lights ?" poll.

There is THOUSANDS of SF lights in CPFer´s hands. Just because that, I think they should start listening CPFers.

And, if they´re target market is not CPF at all, why they´re here ?


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## Size15's (Mar 12, 2009)

Thousands of SureFires - does the poll really 'prove' that?

Just becase we buy some of SureFires doesn't mean they should be designed or intended for us.

I'm of the opinion that anybody who buys a SureFire intending to modify it with an aftermarket rechargeable battery, or aftermarket LED drop-in etc - they are not SureFire's intended market.

A flashlight collector/hobbyist is far from SureFire's intended market.


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## Federal LG (Mar 12, 2009)

No. You should read the thread poll, where I said: *This poll does not have cientific value...*

Respectfully, if CPF is not the target market from Surefire (like you guys said), what they´re doing here ?

If CPFer´s opinion doesn´t matter to SF (because we´re not their target market), what they´re doing here ?


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## Size15's (Mar 12, 2009)

Why are people from SureFire visitors and sometimes even posters on CPF?
You may not believe it but SureFire employs people who are deeply interested in flashlights and illumination tools - passionate and dedicated to creating the best products they can.

People like PK are true Flashaholics and being part of the CPF community as a entity itself is worthwhile.

Online communities such as CPF are also a place to get a completely different perspective, discussion and interaction from core markets. This can highlight things that are more difficult to discover through other feedback mechanisms.

Opportunities to learn can come from the most surprising of places - even CPF! :devil:


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## Federal LG (Mar 12, 2009)

Size15's said:


> Why are people from SureFire visitors and sometimes even posters on CPF?
> You may not believe it but SureFire employs people who are deeply interested in flashlights and illumination tools - passionate and dedicated to creating the best products they can.
> 
> People like PK are true Flashaholics and being part of the CPF community as a entity itself is worthwhile.
> ...



Again, you didn´t undestand...

If people from Surefire don´t want to suffer an "avalanche" of questions, opinions and critics, so they should not identify themselves as a Surefire representant.

I have nothing against Surefire people in CPF. Most of them have an amazing job, being in contact with awesome lights during all day, and some of them could be flashaholics, and could visit CPF, just like us.

But all this started because people said that we can´t scare SF people around CPF... and that´s not my point of view. Surefire people are welcome in CPF, as flashaholics, but once they identify themselves as Surefire representants, they should be ready to listen suggestions, critics and opinions.

If they´re not ready, so why they are here *as SF reps* ?


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## Size15's (Mar 12, 2009)

Perhaps one of the challenges for any company representative on an internet discussion forum is that there seems to be little collective learning from experience - there tends to be lot of going over the same things over and over - mostly likely due to the growth of the community and churn of members. It's all well saying to people - check first before asking because your question has most likely been covered before - but the reality is that it's not always practical or straight forward to do this (even with the best will in the world).

The result can be that the same topics repeat themselves. It's more often the nature of things rather than a deliberate negative action.

So sure - company representatives should have a pretty good idea of what they're letting themselves in for when they publically represent.
There's also the reality that discussion boards are places people visit to help resolve the issues they're having with products.
If everything is fine why bother to attend a discussion forum when you could spend your time actually using your product?

I think that SureFire as a brand is a hot topic in flashlight communities and it takes a certain character of employee to volunteer to represent SureFire online.

Al


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## Federal LG (Mar 12, 2009)

Nah... I quit.

Regards. :thumbsup:


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## conan1911 (Mar 12, 2009)

I have no problem with ANY critic. All I am trying to do is have a voice too. I appreciate Al backing me up but my main point is just having a voice from the factory to straighten out fact over opinion. Thats all.



Federal LG said:


> Again, you didn´t undestand...
> 
> If people from Surefire don´t want to suffer an "avalanche" of questions, opinions and critics, so they should not identify themselves as a Surefire representant.
> 
> ...


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## wacbzz (Mar 12, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I have no problem with ANY critic. All I am trying to do is have a voice too. I appreciate Al backing me up but my main point is just having a voice from the factory to straighten out fact over opinion. Thats all.



Then hopefully you'll answer my PM that I just sent to you...:ironic:


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## Bucky (Mar 12, 2009)

Stuart,

Can you provide us with any information on the release date of the Titan T1A since that appears to be the new light that may be available the soonest?

Thanks, Bucky


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## conan1911 (Mar 12, 2009)

I just spoke with the Manager for that and he said it should start shipping to dealers by the end of the month.


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## Bucky (Mar 12, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I just spoke with the Manager for that and he said it should start shipping to dealers by the end of the month.



Thank you very much for your response. Great news!

Bucky


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## bullfrog (Mar 12, 2009)

Awesome news!

So..... any other lights shipping over the next month as well?  

Thanks!


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## foxtrot29 (Mar 12, 2009)

Size15's said:


> Thousands of SureFires - does the poll really 'prove' that?
> 
> Just becase we buy some of SureFires doesn't mean they should be designed or intended for us.
> 
> ...



Exactly. I have no other words.


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## foxtrot29 (Mar 12, 2009)

bullfrog said:


> Awesome news!
> 
> So..... any other lights shipping over the next month as well?
> 
> Thanks!




HAHAHA, we just never stop... We can't. It isn't out fault. 

The fact of the matter is, we just love the product!


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## saabgoblin (Mar 12, 2009)

bullfrog said:


> Awesome news!
> 
> So..... any other lights shipping over the next month as well?
> 
> Thanks!


Hey now Stuart, what are you doing wasting time on the inner web when you could be building my LX1, I mean our flashlights, get busy son. Seriously, I am only kidding and thanks for getting covered in cutting fluid at our expense and I hope that your child is feeling better. Have fun at the factory, I know that I would.


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## JNewell (Mar 12, 2009)

C'mon, let's lock this one down. We go through this every year.


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## Dan FO (Mar 12, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> How long has the US military been using the M16?? Anyone? since the 1960's.



And what a piece of junk it was. We got them in 1968 and had to give up the great M14. :green:

Back on topic. I am very happy to have people that work for SureFire here, it gives a sense of caring to me and from time to time some very essential information. :twothumbs


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## Sgt. LED (Mar 13, 2009)

Dan FO said:


> And what a piece of junk it was. We got them in 1968 and had to give up the great M14. :green:


AMEN!


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## divine (Mar 13, 2009)

Stuart, welcome back. Nice to see another manufacturer that ventures to this side of the board. There are very manufacturers that do. It is a very difficult, and possibly impossible job to please everyone on such a public place like this.

There are a lot of people taking this way too personal. This is a forum about flashlights, can't we keep it objective (and on topic)?


I try to look only at lights that are currently available. I don't think it ever hurt anyone to wait a couple days until a light has been reviewed to buy it.


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## Sean (Mar 15, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I just spoke with the Manager for that and he said it should start shipping to dealers by the end of the month.



Thanks for the great news (I am waiting for the T1A), and you are always welcome here. :twothumbs


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## conan1911 (Mar 16, 2009)

Thank you to everyone for the warm welcome/wecome back. I hang out here a lot. I have learned a lot from lurking around. The one thing I would remind you all is that I act alone and not on behalf of the company. If there is something I can do to help I most certainly will. I may not always be quick to respond as I have a very full plate that typically does not involve customer service anymore, but I will do what I can to help. Thanks.


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## Bruce B (Mar 18, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Thank you to everyone for the warm welcome/wecome back. I hang out here a lot. I have learned a lot from lurking around. The one thing I would remind you all is that I act alone and not on behalf of the company. If there is something I can do to help I most certainly will. I may not always be quick to respond as I have a very full plate that typically does not involve customer service anymore, but I will do what I can to help. Thanks.



:thanks: Stuart for all your assistance here on CPF. It's very nice to have a Surefire Rep here on the forums. :thumbsup:


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## Patriot (Mar 18, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> I think it's really cool that Stuart from SF participates here. Very cool.



+1

By far the best part of this thread.


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## woodrow (Mar 18, 2009)

Patriot36 said:


> +1
> 
> By far the best part of this thread.


 
I agree!

I am not a Surefire expert...and am not their target consumer. I have owned a few of their lights...starting back from 1989...and they are the company that started making me interested in the industry. I guess what is hard for myself and others here is that in my humble opinion...Surefire has changed from the company I first Loved. I used to look at lights like the M6 and even my M3 with its hola lamp...and brag to my friends...who just didn't get it.... that it was a good thing that the light used 3x$8 batteries that only lasted 20 minutes...and that the light was WAAAY over engineered from what it needed to be..... they were the Porche of flashlights...nothing else even came close...

In another thread, the topic was "is it a boring time for flashaholics" Part of me thinks it is...because the lights we want to buy...Super cool...M series 350 lumen (or even 200) led...over engineered flashlights BY SUREFIRE at this time do not exhist. That makes us sad...even though Fenix or Olight etc...make them, they are not Surefires.

I always felt that Surefires were made for US...not just military or LE personell....for people who 'got it' and were willing to gladly shell out the money for a incredible product. I do not see Surefire's current led products being that. Good, sure...reliable...sure...phenominal...no.

So I see both sides. I am sure that Surefire sells a ton of lights now...to people who truely need them. But the excitement for myself is not there anymore. Thats why myself and others it seems are dissapointed. 

I always felt Surefire WAS the cutting edge. Now, it is Fenix, Olight and others that first put MC-E emmiters on their lights...and Cree Q5's and R2's. Its just that several years ago, if you asked many of us light enthusiasts who would always come out with the next best thing first, we would have (or at least I would have) said it would be (OF COURSE) SUREFIRE.

So, while I wish them the very best... please understand my dissapointment that they are not still the runtime be damned output and toughness is ALL that matters flashlight company....in the led market that is.

Again, this is coming from a fan who has bought a decent ammount of their lights...not just a critic.


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## LED61 (Mar 18, 2009)

I would not be so bogged down.

Despite what is said here about Surefire not being for US, and bla bla, I still believe they are in some way intended for other than military and LEo as some may want to make us believe.

The wide distribution channel says it all. Surefires are made available to the public through many stores. Surefire has also run adds and big advertisement pages in Flying magazine for example. Why would they do this ? many outdoor avids also purchase Surefires. The truth is a Surefire is a beautiful and reliable light that comes in handy for just about anybody that has the money to buy one.

Too, also look after whom they name their models, it is the best explanation of their target market.

See now, it is really easy to make a case that they are intended for US.


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## gsxrac (Mar 18, 2009)

Well from what I gather the whole reason many CPF'ers buy Surefire products is BECAUSE they are so durable and reliable and thats what many of us desire from a handheld light. Yes its allways nice to have a 500+ lumen light that can cook a turkey AND be used to slice it too but is that 500+ lumen light and its host reliable? Was it produced with good workmanship in mind or "damn these things are new and in high demand lets throw em out there and make our dollar!" Now since theres allready plenty of other companies out there that throw a light together and put it to market in a month we dont need Surefire to compromise their quality just so they can be ready today. Everybody is asking for two completly different things! Say Surefire made a P7 or XRE light and put it out a month after it came out. Everybody would OOOO and AHHHH until 2 months later when all the threads come up "My new Surefire super-dee-duper-lumen light broke, SF sucks!" So that being said do you wanna wait 8 months and have an amazing light with an "outdated" emitter that will last you many years to come or an inferior product today? 
Please keep in mind this is just my friendly input on the matter! I just know id rather wait and have a better light that may be "outdated" but who cares! it will more than likely be a much more useful light also.

And to say that CPF isnt Surefires intend market may be true but MANY of the people that frequent CPF are part of the group(s) that Surefire designed their lights for and around.


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## Monocrom (Mar 18, 2009)

Surefires are intended for anyone who wants a rugged, tough, reliable light that is overbuilt for the purposes that many folks will put them through.

Surefire hasn't always met with success, regarding those above-mentioned traits. 

But the company has hit the 10-ring more often than it has missed.


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## NoFair (Mar 18, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Thank you to everyone for the warm welcome/wecome back. I hang out here a lot. I have learned a lot from lurking around. The one thing I would remind you all is that I act alone and not on behalf of the company. If there is something I can do to help I most certainly will. I may not always be quick to respond as I have a very full plate that typically does not involve customer service anymore, but I will do what I can to help. Thanks.


 
Enjoy having you here Stuart 

Thanks again for sorting out my U2 switch issues a few years ago when you were still doing CS :twothumbs

Sverre

PS! Still hoping for an Optimus sometime in the not too distant future


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## JNewell (Mar 18, 2009)

I'd add that the company really stands behind its products. My daily carry 6Z is 10 years old but only because it has been repeatedly "rebuilt" by SureFire providing replacements for parts that were really just casualties of extended service and accidental damage, which most companies wouldn't consider covering.




Monocrom said:


> Surefires are intended for anyone who wants a rugged, tough, reliable light that is overbuilt for the purposes that many folks will put them through.
> 
> Surefire hasn't always met with success, regarding those above-mentioned traits.
> 
> But the company has hit the 10-ring more often than it has missed.


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## Patriot (Mar 18, 2009)

gsxrac said:


> Yes its allways nice to have a 500+ lumen light that can cook a turkey AND be used to slice it too but is that 500+ lumen light and its host reliable?




It seems that more and more often there are indeed companies who are producing very bright, very reliable lights. I think that most people who have been around for a few months would probably name 5-10 companies who have a good reputation around here. This doesn't reflect badly at all on Surefire, only to state observation. Additionally, some of these companies seem to build on their success and sometimes blow us away with great innovation and really trick stuff. JetBeam used to be garbage imo. They overstated performance, had more than there fair share of failures and there was a lot of grumbling about them when you performed a search. Now disappointment is nearly non-existent and some of their products leave me scratching my head thinking, 'that's a lot of light for the money.' It's not just JB either because there are many surprisingly good lights out there. 




> *JNewell
> *I'd add that the company really stands behind its products. My daily carry 6Z is 10 years old but only because it has been repeatedly "rebuilt" by SureFire providing replacements for parts that were really just casualties of extended service and accidental damage, which most companies wouldn't consider covering.


I'm happy for SF and SF owners that this is still the case. It seems to be one of the main things that separates them from others. Thankfully we've got some great dealers that usually take care of issues right away whether it's a problem with a Surefire or Fenix. The question is what's the dealer and or Fenix going to do for you two or three years from now? With Surefire we already know the answer. They've proven themselves over the years and it's one of the reasons that I'm so confident in their products.







One final thought that I do have about Surefire being slow to release some of their long anticipated lights is that the longer it takes the more likely we are to default our money into other products. For example, I've had money put away in expectation of certain Surefire lights being released but when they don't come about I spend the money on other lights instead. Some have been pre-owned Surefires, while others have been lights like the Zebralight, Bitz, Lummi, JetBeam & Fenix. Now I've been happy with all of my purchases but if other choices from Surefire had been available I would have spent my money there first. Lights like the UA2, UB3, X400, ARC-2, & parts like the LUT10L have all been on my "to buy" list for 6-12 months. 
Since I have spent money on other lights due to Surefire unavailability, when the new ones are finally released I'll probably have to settle for the two I want most like the X400 and UA2. I do not think this speaks poorly of Surefire but does point out a fact of life, at least with regards to my life, about how consumer's choose how/when to spend their money. Often when consumers can't get what they really want, for whatever reason, they'll get what they perceive is the next best thing. I see this as a loosing proposition for both parties. As the consumer I'd much rather buy Surefire but there is a limit to how long I'll wait. I'm also pretty sure that Surefire would rather that I spend my money on their products regardless of how many procurement contracts they already have. 

It's been argued that it's not uncommon for Surefire to have products in their catalogs that never made production and that's true. It's also my notion that we might be seeing the end of this way of doing things. Look at it this way, every product that wasn't released for sale was and expectation that wasn't met from the public's perspective. That kind of history can also cast doubts on whether or not will see some of the lights promised last year and that's evident in many discussions here when the topic arises. In any case, I'm simply trying to convey that timely release dates are in fact important because everyone stands to benefit.


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## JNewell (Mar 18, 2009)

I am actually amazed that SureFire puts products in catalogs that never ship, or ship with extended delays. If I ran a company and we managed to go two years in a row with "aspirational" products in our catalog, we'd be able to save on G&A expenses for office furnishings, because some folks would be out the door and the rest (including foremost myself) would have been kicked to hard in the rear that we could sell all the office chairs because no one would be able to sit down any more...I really love SureFire, but that doesn't mean the company is perfect.


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## Patriot (Mar 18, 2009)

JNewell said:


> I am actually amazed that SureFire puts products in catalogs that never ship, or ship with extended delays. If I ran a company and we managed to go two years in a row with "aspirational" products in our catalog, we'd be able to save on G&A expenses for office furnishings, because some folks would be out the door and the rest (including foremost myself) would have been kicked to hard in the rear that we could sell all the office chairs because no one would be able to sit down any more...I really love SureFire, but that doesn't mean the company is perfect.





Yeah something is out of synchronization there. I hate to suggest this, but I was wondering if much of the hype about the planned models was stirred as a result of the SHOT show. I know many of these lights were shared or demonstrated at the CPF party but I wonder if they let the cat out of the bag too soon in an effort to kindly include CPFers in what's happening behind the scenes? 

I could be way off in left field with that idea though.


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 19, 2009)

Patriot36 said:


> Yeah something is out of synchronization there. I hate to suggest this, but I was wondering if much of the hype about the planned models was stirred as a result of the SHOT show. I know many of these lights were shared or demonstrated at the CPF party but I wonder if they let the cat out of the bag too soon in an effort to kindly include CPFers in what's happening behind the scenes?
> 
> I could be way off in left field with that idea though.



No CPF party hosted by PK at the SHOT show this year, maybe next year. You know, it is only because SF is not so forthcoming with us CPF'ers that we find ourselves drifting off into reading between the lines and making up our own stories about what is going on. The truth is we are blowing in the wind and nothing more, and truth be know, or not known, SF does not have to tell us a thing, or give us any reasons why they do this or that, and speaking for me, I don't care. I do check in here to see how the drama is going. No offense intended here on my part, just my observation. 

Bill


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## Patriot (Mar 19, 2009)

Bullzeyebill said:


> No CPF party hosted by PK at the SHOT show this year, maybe next year. You know, it is only because SF is not so forthcoming with us CPF'ers that we find ourselves drifting off into reading between the lines and making up our own stories about what is going on. The truth is we are blowing in the wind and nothing more, and truth be know, or not known, SF does not have to tell us a thing, or give us any reasons why they do this or that, and speaking for me, I don't care. I do check in here to see how the drama is going. No offense intended here on my part, just my observation.
> 
> Bill




None taken  

I was referring to last year's SHOT where we got the first glimpse of the UA2 and other lights. I don't feel that the most recent discussion involved any "reading between the lines or making up stories" but had to do more with product promotion. Not only were we not suggesting that Surefire had to tell us anything, we were actually questioning whether they may have even told us too much, too early. You might have to read back several posts to see what I'm stating in context.


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## LED61 (Mar 19, 2009)

Again, I just think some are impatient or anxious for the goodies. This shoud be well taken by Surefire, they are demostrating enthusiasm. I don´t think anyone here is demanding explanations for delays from Surefire.

What is even more curious is that some members seem to be touchier on the subject than Surefire representatives are.


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 19, 2009)

LED61 said:


> What is even more curious is that some members seem to be touchier on the subject than Surefire representatives are.



Quite right. Sort of burned out on the SF threads, particularly the ones that end badly. Dozens of threads on SF and most everything said here has been said dozens of times in different ways. Research other threads and we will have fewer redundant threads here on CPF.

Bill


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## KDOG3 (Mar 21, 2009)

I really hope people here don't push Surefire away. Some people here behave in a spoiled, ungrateful manner. I for one definetly want to keep CPF in Surefires' good graces!


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