# Neoca 18650 - 2008 Renderings



## PEU (Jan 4, 2007)

*[edit 3/10/2008]*
Well, I almost finished making the 3rd prototype, Im quite happy with it. While applying it the final touches to the body I had the tube almost destroyed you will see some chuck marks near the head 

Luckily I managed to save it, but now it shows the scars, I decided not to touch it anymore, better show the scars than a destroyed body. Please forgive the knurling mismatches 

One thing I noticed is that the body knurling needs to be at least twice as wide, that little band is not enough with this light knurling, maybe a more agressive one does the trick.

Here are the photos, I also added a size comparission, hope you all like it:

























*[edit 2/27/2008]*

New Renderings:





The crenelation is included in the head, there is no removable bezel there. 
Also I included a *10mm deep orange peel reflector* for some throw!

*[Original Post]*
I spent many hours drawing this model, my goals for it are (sorted by importance)

Simple
Small as the battery allows
Broad choice of converters
Cree XR-E led
Lanyard attachment
Tail-standable

So with these priorities in mind this is the design I came up with:


















The reflector is conical and there is no glass in the front like the ARC-AAA or Gerber Infinity
The LED will be epoxied to seal the electronics from the environment
The body-head seal is done with an oring
I will make a converter for it (Neoca Tris/DD (three levels+Strobo)) but there is space for other converters too of course.
There is a hole in the bottom which allows to add a split ring or a lanyard directly.
Flashlight Size: Diameter: 22mm (0.87in) Lenght: 95mm (3.74in)

And of course, if there is enough interest it will be produced  price should be around $100 depending mostly on the converter used (mine or 3rd party).

*FAQ in progress:*
Finish: Hard Annodized or Electroless Nickel plated
Converter: Three levels + Strobo
Internal Diameter: 18.7mm enough for all 18650 variations
It will draw around 400mA from the battery, so runtime should be around 6-7 hours on high on a 2400mA 18650


Hope you all like it


Pablo


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## FirstDsent (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Cool!

Bernie


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## MSaxatilus (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I'm in! 

Nice job PEU!


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## Norm (Jan 4, 2007)

*Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Hi Pablo, I'd be wary of leaving the Cree lens exsposed, I was working on one the other day and the lens must have fallen off without me noticing, I found it on the floor, they don't seem very well attached. I have heard of others having the same problem. The lights you mentioned with exposed LEDs are all 5mm with a tough plastic body.
Not sure if you are supposed to have a picture in you thread but I see just the text.
Norm


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## 65535 (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Coudn me in.


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## PEU (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I just been asked, the Neoca TRIS/DD is a three level + Strobo converter, I programmed & designed it so I can customize it too 

Check the link in my signature or the 1st post for more details.


Pablo


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## kakster (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Yes please!


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## Lightmania (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Neat, I like it. This is the best simple-design 18650/Cree combo I've seen so far. Just a question, what kind of finish will it have? 

Lightmania


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## PEU (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Hard annodized and/or Electroless Nickel plated


Pablo


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## dizzy (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I'll be in for one if it holds a 2600mah LG-18650 cell, as I have several of them already. Nice design.


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## [email protected] (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Very nice Pablo, but I seem to miss something.... :thinking: :nana:


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## luigi (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

This looks coooooool!
My Neoca is now in my wife's hand and she loves the light a lot so I will be +1 for this model with the converter.
No shipping charges 

Luigi


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## PEU (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

just for you Luigi, just for you  you can come to my office and pick it up whenever you want 

BTW, I just added a FAQ to the first post, if you post a question, expect my reply to be there.

Pablo


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## luigi (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Maybe a small slot for a tritium tube can be added ? I don't know how that impacts the design of course.


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## ICUDoc (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

This looks really nice Pablo- I'll take (at least) one thanks!
The 18650 form factor is so solid and with such good energy-density it surprises me that we are still waiting for a nice, simple-bodied torch to use it.
The Leef C-E adaptors still aren't available so I am really looking forward to your model. The Tris convertor is icing on the cake!
Good on you for continuing to produce cool stuff. Thanks.


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## PEU (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Thanks David, I forgot to add that it will draw around 400mA from the battery, so runtime should be around 6-7 hours on high on a 2400mA 18650 

IMHO its about time to put long runtime as a more important feature over more power.


Pablo


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## PEU (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*



Norm said:


> Hi Pablo, I'd be wary of leaving the Cree lens exsposed, I was working on one the other day and the lens must have fallen off without me noticing, I found it on the floor, they don't seem very well attached. I have heard of others having the same problem. The lights you mentioned with exposed LEDs are all 5mm with a tough plastic body.
> Not sure if you are supposed to have a picture in you thread but I see just the text.
> Norm



I also had this accident Norm while testing some old cree 7090 leds, so, based on this previous experience, this is also covered by the design 

Take a look at this picture selected regions, they are tappered so they are slightly smaller than the bigger diameter of the cree XR-E dome, thus preventing it from falling.







Pablo


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## Rookwood (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

This looks great!

Any chance of a clicky/FluPIC combination, or is this body just too small?

:goodjob:


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## greenLED (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*



PEU said:


> IMHO its about time to put long runtime as a more important feature over more power.


OK... who are you, and what'd you do with PEU?  Just kidding! It's an interesting proposition. As much as I like bright lights, I find myself using the low setting more and more often (at least for indoor stuff). ...and with a useable "low" being achievable at such low currents from the XR-E, the potential for loooooooooooooooooooong runtimes is fantastic.

It somehow it reminds me of an oversized CMG Infinity - re-vamped, upgraded, and ready to hit the new millenium!
:goodjob:


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## jch79 (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Very cool light Pablo!

I wonder if it should have a little more knurling, if you're not gripping it by the entire light, but instead just the back of it, which I do occasionally.

Also, if it could have holes for a clip, I'd be all over it.

The amount you share with us of all the effort that goes into your R&D is awesome, and really appreciated! 

john


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## Nebula (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Pablo - count me in as well. Very nice design. Kirk


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## TSWrench (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Looks and sounds great to me - I'm interested!


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## fnmag (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I'm ready for this light. Looks like a winner.


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## bombelman (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Option for Ti-clip would be nice...
Not sure how efficient the reflector would be at all since it's so wide, and not deep...
Maybe just get it annodized like I've seen on the CMGs and have all light come from the emitter itself... With the tremendous output, is should not be a problem at all. This light would be great for a camping light, no overkill brightness for real close-up work, not to mention runtime.

Keep up the good work. Cheers !

EDIT: dizzy, please edit out my typo.


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## dizzy (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Deleted


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## ICUDoc (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Pablo have you tried the reflector with a Cree?
The loveliest beam can be had out of the deep Aleph 19 reflector, so I wonder whether that would influence your Neoca design??????


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## HammerSandwich (Jan 5, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I'll be watching this _very_ closely. It's almost exactly a light I've had on my mental wish list.


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## glockboy (Jan 5, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Can you add a clip on it so I can clip on my cap as a headlight?


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## wquiles (Jan 5, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Nice work Pablo 

The 18650 is my favorite cell :naughty: 

Will


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## Lurveleven (Jan 5, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Why have you chosen to not have a lens?

Sigbjoern


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## PEU (Jan 5, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Because its simple and I like how it looks 


Pablo


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## Chronos (Jan 5, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

OK, I am very interested Pablo! This would be my first Peu light.


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## Lurveleven (Jan 5, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Well, simple is not always the best, and for me function comes before looks, so this will not be a light for me. Hower, I very much like the concept of the light.
As already mentioned by someone else, I think there is room for improvement when it comes to the knurling.

Good luck with the project.

Sigbjoern


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## nerdgineer (Jan 5, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I'd rather have a glass window with a reflector, i.e. an oversized ION rather than an oversized Arc AA...


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## Pumaman (Jan 5, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

good job peu!
my requests would be knurling the length of the body and a tritium slot or 2


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## liteboy (Jan 5, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I too love the 18650 cell and although I like your concept, here's my wish list:

1. glass window with reflector
2. more knurling and a "waist" like the HDS EDC so it can be held securely "cigar style."
3. a clicky
4. at least 2 or 3 levels (don't really need flupic or HDS UI complexity) in a light this bright.

I know this is a lot to ask, but one can hope, huh?


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## daywalker (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

What will make it an effort using a 18650 battery? Now that we have the jetbeam using a input voltage from 1-1,5 volt someone could use a Nimh battery with nowadays 2900mah which is cheaper to get.
Will the brightness be brighter on a 18650 than regular Nimh if the lightengine is made for the Nimh?


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## Frenchyled (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Hi Pablo :wave:

IMHO the head is a little short (design) and without glass I think the led is not protected...But the idea is good 
A longer head with reflector and glass would be nice 

Wher is your LEON project


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## PEU (Jan 7, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I will revise the model, based on the suggestions received. 

Interesting remainder Frenchy, this project could be merged with the Neoca Leon... :devil:


Pablo


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## Hallis (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Is this a first Pablo? Ive seen plenty of small CR2, 14500/AA, AAA, and other keychainable lights but i think this is the first one to attempt to use larger cell 18mm cell which as you pointed out will give butt-kicking runtime. I might have to toss out my old Mag Solataire.

Shane


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## PEU (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Hi Shane (Glad to see you back) not sure if this is a first, its becoming increasingly difficult to be original these days 

People asked for a glass in the front, so I guess I will give the people that, as I write this Im machining a proof of concept unit. time will tell the outcome.


Pablo


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## lrp (Feb 10, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Very, very nice!! I would take one.


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## Casual Flashlight User (Feb 10, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Wow, sweet 'lookin light, I don't own any PEU creations...I just might if this comes to fruition though...HAIII rules!






Any chance of more knurling on the body? Would also prefer a reflector and lens...but hey, I'm not making the thing.






CFU


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## Nell (Feb 10, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

You are one busy guy. Designing and building the Pineapple was a task, and now I find this. Wow.

Count me in. I like the looks, reminds me of a Ultra with all the modern updates.


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## DeLighted (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Count me in for one. I love the size/capacity of the 18650. :twothumbs

How long before you wil have your prototype done?


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## benighted (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Theres no glass protecting the reflector? Won't that get dusty and scratched?
Also, the reflector looks very short and wide which I've heard is bad for the XR-E, am I missing something?
I think you could use a narrow optic for a better beam without making it any bigger, at least test one with a CREE optic to see how it will match up.


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## dizzy (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*



PEU said:


> ....People asked for a glass in the front, so I guess I will give the people that, as I write this Im machining a proof of concept unit. time will tell the outcome.
> Pablo


He's working on it....Let's be patient.


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## lrp (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

This one light that I just can't wait for!!


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## doc_felixander (Mar 7, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

yes, i really like the design, too!
if the dome is reliably held in place, i don't see the need for a lens. it's a glass dome and it'll withstand heavy abuse and edc'ing.


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## Gary123 (Mar 14, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*



Norm said:


> Hi Pablo, I'd be wary of leaving the Cree lens exsposed, I was working on one the other day and the lens must have fallen off without me noticing, I found it on the floor, they don't seem very well attached. I have heard of others having the same problem. The lights you mentioned with exposed LEDs are all 5mm with a tough plastic body.
> 
> Norm is correct. You don't want to expose either a Seoul or a Cree. Bad idea for the Seoul because of the gummy, and for the Cree I have heard of other instances of the glass cover coming off and that the glass cover is very fragile.


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## nerdgineer (Mar 14, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I suggest a fundamental change to your concept: change your bezel-into-body twisty design into the opposite body-into-bezel twisty design like the Civictor V1 where the battery + post is held spring loaded against the center + contact of the PCB and the negative contact is made between the end of the body and a - contact ring on the PCB. I have both Civictor's and various bezel-into-body twisties (Jetbeam CLE, Arc AAAs, etc.) and the Civictor design appears to provide a much more reliable and bounce free turning on/off action. In particular, the Civictor type twisty is not affected by whatever lube is used on the threads or the tightness of the threads.

Just my 2 cents.


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## dizzy (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Pablo, any updates to tell us about this light?


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## PEU (Apr 13, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*



dizzy said:


> Pablo, any updates to tell us about this light?



Well... yes 










I used scrap parts to make the body (brass pipe and a piece of alu) final version its going to be a single piece as the renders in the 1st post. For this proto I made the lanyard attachment like the ones in Fenix flashlights.

This unit total lenght is 97mm (2mm more than renders) due to the two parts body

The Head is somewhat final, I used a GD500 converter, but Im not sure what I will end using in the final version, probably a converter designed by me.

The beam is a even and bright flood with almost no hotspot.

Hope you all like it 


Pablo


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## dizzy (Apr 13, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I like it Pablo. I am in for one for sure. Very simple design, very original.


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## XFlash (Apr 13, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I like it also, I'm finding floods are more and more usefull to me than the spots.
Put me on the list.


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## dizzy (Jun 10, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Pablo, how are these babys coming along. I'm in an 18650 mood after getting the D-mini body.


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## PEU (Jun 10, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Sorry for the lack of updates...

There is actually one update, I put the unit into a durability test, for that I used my most realiable durability tester: my kid 

It didn't passed the test  the dome is gone, maybe my kid took it out, maybe not, end result is the same. So the design needs to be rethinked, this time to include a lens in the front.

More updates in the near future 


Pablo


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## photorob (Jun 10, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

The dome of the cree led doesn't hold up pretty well. I've actually gotten more then one cree that lost it's dome while fiddling around with it during installation.


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## bombelman (Jun 10, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I've had the same happen also with the Cree XR-E series of leds... :mecry:

BTW, looking at the design, the bottom of the "reflector cone" rests on the metal ring
around the dome, not around it.
Could you remake the head so that the metal ring will be behind the reflector,
not in it ? This should keep the dome from falling off I think ?

(Similar to the rendering in post #17, right ?)


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## Daekar (Jun 21, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*



PEU said:


> Sorry for the lack of updates...
> 
> There is actually one update, I put the unit into a durability test, for that I used my most realiable durability tester: my kid
> 
> ...



I'm very disappointed to hear that! Someone in another thread was talking about putting a thin layer of clear epoxy over the emitter in an Arc AAA-P, whereupon he was informed it would make it a floody beam. Would you consider that possibility? Or even just to use high-strength epoxy to permanently fasten a lens in the front... you could have a small channel cut out which the lens would slip into. I really would like to buy one of these things if you decide to produce them, they're EXACTLY what I've been looking for.


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## bombelman (Jun 22, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I still think putting the metal ring _behind_ the reflector
will solve the problem of the falling dome...


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## Norm (Jun 22, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*



Daekar said:


> I'm very disappointed to hear that! Someone in another thread was talking about putting a thin layer of clear epoxy over the emitter in an Arc AAA-P,


Might not be the best for future mod ability or upgrades.
Norm


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## PEU (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Yesterday I finished a new prototype, introduced many variations:

Added an UCL® Lens
Added top and threads sealing orings
Changed from small head to large (Neoca BL style)
Added a bucket tailcap 
Changed converter to flupic board
Used a Seoul LED (because I ran out of CREEs )

Of course the design is not final, im just testing waters. Here are some photos, please forgive me I didn't polished the unit, its almost raw on the outside...



















Im likeing the concept of the bucket tailcap, it allows the flashlight to tailstand and also be suspended from the tail in perfect balance (think tent light)

Comments welcome 



Pablo


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## Frenchyled (Jun 24, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

No comments  

:wave:


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## Daekar (Jun 24, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Looks like a winner to me! I say forge ahead, full steam ahead, hoist the main, batten down the hatches, saddle up the ponies, kick the tires and light the fires... well... you get the point...  

Do you have any dimensions of the prototype? I know they're very fluid and largely open to change based on what you think is the best design to pursue... but to satisfy my (and other people's) curiosity... ? Pretty please?


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## HammerSandwich (Jun 24, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*



PEU said:


> Comments welcome


I like it!


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## PEU (Jun 24, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*



Daekar said:


> Do you have any dimensions of the prototype?












Tailcap is longer than actually needed, I can trim it from the top of the knurling to the bottom and still have functionality.

This should give you a ballpark estimate about the final model 


Pablo


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## Daekar (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

That's fantastic! Sounds like you've hit the ball right out of the park there, bucko... it's smaller even that I thought it would be. Perfect pocket size. 

For comparison, a LP M3 in CR123a form is 96.5mm long... that's pretty favorable!

What kind of current were you thinking? If you figure with reflector losses and decent emitters, 350mA should give about 65 lumens out the front, correct? If there's really not much reflector, then it would probably be even more out the front. Really I can't see needing any more than that for an EDC... maybe even less. Thoughts?


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## Grumpy (Jun 26, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I just started a thread yesterday hoping someone would make a light like this and Daekar pointed me to this thread. I would definately be interested in one of these lights. Very nice to see a small light that uses the 18650. Hope it has three light levels and dosen't have strobe or sos.

Will this light have a reflector or will it use a CREE led without a reflector like the MULE?

I would be very nice if it also remembers the last light setting. That would be a very important feature for me. 

Looking forward to watching the progression of this project.

Please make it easy for us to upgrade the led at a later time if possible.


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## regulator (Jun 26, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

That looks great. I would make the tail smaller like you mentioned. Any idea when you may have one ready for purchase?


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## Daekar (Jun 26, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*



regulator said:


> That looks great. I would make the tail smaller like you mentioned. Any idea when you may have one ready for purchase?



Give the man time! He just made a prototype, and he's got a bunch of other projects going on, including the contactless continuous dimming lights, the D-mini 18650 tubes, and I'm sure others I don't know about. Good work takes time - I daresay it would be a miracle of production and logistics to get the parts machined and anodized in less than a few weeks, and then he has to build the things, which probably will take a while, especially the first few. He knows we're serious about spending money on these and since he's put so much effort into the concept (and two prototypes) I have no fear that he'll let this light die. I think we need to be patient and encouraging - he'll let us know when he has more information.

P.S. Regulator - Sorry, I didn't mean to sound preachy or mean in this post but I think it may have come out that way. Please accept my apologies.:candle:


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## HammerSandwich (Jun 27, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*



Daekar said:


> Give the man time! He just made a prototype, and he's got a bunch of other projects going on, including the contactless continuous dimming lights...


*Peu*, if you can add the dimming ring to this light, I'll gladly wait! Small, bright, good runtime, exceptional UI - it's my dream EDC.


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## regulator (Jun 27, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Hey Daekar,

No problem. I just came across the thread and had no idea of all the projects he is involved with and was curious if this is something that may actually happen or is just a one off. I will patiently wait. I would prefer a small reflector to get some throw though.


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## Daekar (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Just thought I'd dredge this thread up, I'm really hoping this light concept doesn't die. I've been putting off buying another EDC light for either this or the next Arc LS... OK, so that's a lie, I'm going to buy both of them whenever they're released... but still! PEU, are you out there somewhere? We miss you...


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## Daekar (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Duplicate


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## cnjl3 (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

3.72" is a lot shorter than the 5.5" Aleph19 plus MirageMans 18650 split- body plus Z57 tail cap i presently use.
I like your last proto but you state that you can even make the tail cap bucket even shorter which would make it even sweeter
Hope you havent given up on this project since it looks like quite a few of us are still watching and waiting.


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## Led_Blind (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Nice one. 

ps, i got one of those scales as well


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## lukestephens777 (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Hi Peu,Just read all the posts about this light.I'd definately be in for two!!An 18650 simple light with an efficient regulator is what i've been looking for!!I think a twisty with three levels would be great..5 lumens or less, 25 lumens and then maybe 65lumens max!!I Like the tailcap as well!
I must admit i like the idea of maybe a very floody small reflector, just to add a touch of throw!!
Any news on progress?

Edit: Also Q5 crees are out and about fairly cheap i've seen!! That'd be awesome!


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## lukestephens777 (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Any news?


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## PEU (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Patience little grasshopper, they will see the light 


Pablo


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## ambientmind (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

any news on when this will be ready? price? i know i'm asking a lot, but this is exactly what i'm looking for!


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## Nitroz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

That's an ugly light! Just forget about it and send it to me.:naughty:
















Just kidding, I LOVE IT!


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## HEY HEY ITS HENDO (Nov 15, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Hi, please put me on the "definitely interested" list.... ta


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## ambientmind (Nov 19, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

any news?


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## lukestephens777 (Nov 20, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

This light really appeals to me....
18650, Simple, Twisty, Efficient converter, Cree! It'd be awesome!


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## RecycledElectron (Dec 10, 2007)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I'm in for a couple if they ever hit production at under a hundred bucks. With a P4 and a good driver, it could easily equal the Romisen RC-F4 which uses a P4 and yields about 150-175 lumen, over 125 on a 17670. I find that for my use about 120 is perfect, would be well within the capabilities of this design and would allow good runtime out of an 18650. Making it the perfect EDC light. 

One could wish for 2 levels, but one will do.


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## PEU (Jan 28, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

If things go as planned, I will restart with this design in March/08 


Pablo


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## dizzy (Jan 29, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Thanks for the update Pablo. I'm still "IN" for one.


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## DoubleDutch (Feb 3, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Hi Peu,

Very interested too. Keep us posted.

Kees


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## Hallis (Feb 3, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Put me on the interest list. I need a new keychain light. 

Shane


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## TheGreyEminence (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Put me on your List too! I´m VERY interested in this light!

Kind Regards


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## PEU (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I have some questions, do you guys like this light to be as small as possible like the renders I posted earlier or I should leave an option to add a reflector at a later time?

More questions to come, I started making new drawings 


Pablo


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## mrsinbad (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I'm definitely interested as well. Do you think you can have the max output at about 500ma to produce some really bright output yet still have good run time?


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## RecycledElectron (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

How about an aspheric lens instead of a reflector, like the Malkoff? My preference would be for as short and small diameter light as allowed by battery constraints. An Arc AAA on steroids. That being said, a small reflector like on the JetBeam MKII would not be bad. It would be a PalmBlaze that works as a light rather than as a handwarmer. Just don't re-invent the P60 please, I already have several small P60 lights. You'd be competing with my Xtar with a Solarforce R2 P60 drop-in.

A three mode with a 3% low, 50% medium and 100% high would be icing on the cake. A single mode with 125 lumen out the front would be adequate for me, though.

I think you can improve on these people's design. Heck, if you just put a Seoul P4 in it it would be an improvement since the LED is a older Luxeon K2.
http://www.powerledlighting.com/EagleBuy.html


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## worldedit (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

A really small reflector wont hurt i think. Take a look at the Fenix L0D´s. I guess its only 5mm long and gives the light a decent spot.

I really like the small as possible concept you made, but a bare cree led without optic and lens wont work for me.


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## karlthev (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I'd certainly like to see a small aspherical lens light and this, with an 18650 (this still is the power source?) would be quite the performer both in terms of throw and a long runner to boot!


Karl


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## PEU (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Karl, if you follow this thread you will see that my idea for this flashlight was to make it small, flood style, maybe a little reflector, but not a big head. 
I purchased some shallow reflectors that may do the trick, will keep you guys posted.

Pablo


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## Gryloc (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

PEU,

Very nice prototypes! I really like the second prototype that you created, which uses a threaded tailcap. I am very interested in getting a light like this. Lately, I have really been thinking about the perfect flashlight that is small, while still using a high capacity 18650 cell. I noticed on other threads that others would die for such a light as this. All the single 18650 cell lights I see are huge! They are bulky, and to me, they seem so wasteful. I like the minimal design of your light! Nearly perfect...

However, I was wondering if you could take a few things into consideration. I agree that a purely flood light is useful, but only for walking slowly, or when working with things very close up (in a tent, sneaking into the snack cupboard at night), but what about those that needs a little more punch in the darkness? Even with a broader beam/spot found in smaller EDC lights, you could venture into darker areas in the city in confidence, go jogging, or even take the bicycle out for a late night spin. The super floody light, like the Mule, seems to fit a niche market in the already small market of LED flashlights. While you are making such a nice, desirable light that utilizes a li-ion 18650 cell, why not make the design a bit more flexible, or offer a second line that appeals to the others that desire slightly more throw (at the sacrifice of less than 10mm of length)?

Is it possible where you can make your light able to be modded to use one of McGizmo's reflectors, or one of the common IMS reflectors? With the ID of around 18mm or so, you can fit many common 17mm reflectors, and depending on your design, you may be able to squeeze a nice 19mm reflector in there. What if your design is more flexible? Lets say that your reflector and emitter/converter pill is removable (it being threaded, you use a snug fit, or a retaining ring is used). With this variable axial movement possible, you can put the short floody reflector in there, or you can use a slightly longer McGizmo reflector in there. No matter how the emitter/converter pill is set in place, there will almost always be pressure from the 18650 cell.

Due to the possibility of the added length, you can always add maybe one additional centimeter of threads on for the tailcap. With the short pill, the tailcap will screw win several more turns further, but it will make the same contact desired. Then, for those desiring the deeper reflector for additional throw, the tailcap will screw in several turns less, hiding the threads and o-ring on the body still, all while maintaining the contact desired. Are you using the simple twisty tailcap that uses a spring to hold the battery in place (and is electrically insulative), but when the tailcap is tightened, a metal slug or pin makes electrical contact between the battery and the tailcap? This is what I guessed that you are using. I heard of someone using this concept before with success, and I really like it (KISS).

Would this be a possibility? Users desiring the floody beam may be slightly inconvenienced with the additional turning of the tailcap when exchanging the battery, but I believe that you will gain additional potential customers that want a 18650 flashlight that is fully flexible. There should not be any added complexity by making the threads too much longer and the reflector and pill removable. Of course, I do not know the details of your design, so I am probably wrong. 

As for the execution of the movable reflector and pill, you could probably go several different routes. How do you plan to secure the electronics so far? Threads would be the nicest, as you could just tighten the emitter/converter pill until the emitter is pressed up against the reflector. The glass lens and o-ring will also be held in place by this slight pressure. You could use a retaining ring, but this would be difficult to design if you want to use many different sizes of reflectors. This is unless you specify that only the "PEU flood" or McR-17 reflector will fit (and you have two retaining ring notches). Finally, you could always use a smooth inner wall and a smooth pill with a snug fit. With a little thermal compound used on the walls to help transfer the heat, it will hold itself into place, resetting itself each time it turns on (due to the heat from the emitter and heatsink pill softening the thermal paste). Pressure from the tailcap (and spring) will keep everything in place. The paste will hold it there temporarily when dumping the spent 18650 cell from the light. I understand that the level of skill, complexity, and consequently, cost, will increase as inner threadings and retaining notches are used, but it is not excessive in my eyes. If you cant picture what I am saying fully enough to see that it isn't too complex, give me an IM. I do not mind discussing all of this further.

Thank you for designing this light! I look forward to seeing the final product! I think that I may play around in SolidWorks myself to try to create a design that shows what I mean...

-Tony


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## PEU (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Give me some days to finish the new renderings, I guess you (and all) will like it. The shallow reflector is only 12mm tall and adds less than 8mm to the total lenght of the unit. 

Thanks for your long an thougthtful post.


Pablo


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## PEU (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Well, I had time to make some drawings today, Im happy with the results so far:







The crenelation is included in the head, there is no removable bezel there. 
Also I included a *10mm deep orange peel reflector* for some throw!

comments? 


Pablo


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## dizzy (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I like it alot. The simpler the better. Maybe a little more knurling on the rear of the body for gripping, but other than that, go for it!!!!


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## RecycledElectron (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I like it. It has the clean look of my V2 CLE head on the V1.2 body. What Dizzy said about the knurling at the back.

I'd still like the option of an collimator lens, though.

Any thoughts on which LED to use yet? I just got a Solarforce P60 R2 drop-in for my Xtar, which is not a lot brighter than the P4 which came with the Xtar. The P4 gets hot though, and the R2 doesn't. The R2 is a brilliant white and runs more efficiently, more light on less power, my Xtar doesn't heat up like it did. Looks like that would be a good LED to use if you can get them.


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## PEU (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

LED will be CREE thats set in stone, what bin Im not sure what I will be able to find at build time.

Will make some new renderings, but my actual opinion is I like the minimal knurling. I may add beadblasting to give more grip.

Stay tuned 


Pablo


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## regulator (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Pretty cool. I like the idea of the optic or the small reflector to give it a bit of "projected" beam.


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## skalomax (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Looks good so far.


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## Russki (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I know you trying making light as short as possible, but with Cree and short reflector light beam will look very ringy, more like cheap China light. Any thought s making longer reflector, like Mcr-19. Output from this one very nice. Anyway I am sure it’s gona be great light.
Thanks for reading.:laughing:


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## Tronic (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

I like it!
The only thing I don't like are the lanyard holes. I prefer the keyring attachment of the 1st rendering.


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## RecycledElectron (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Cree = ringy beam. That's why an optic would be better.

Yep, keyring attachment, not lanyard holes, please. At least make them large enough that a ring can be used with a cut to one side so the light can stand on it's end.


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## PEU (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*



RecycledElectron said:


> Cree = ringy beam. That's why an optic would be better.
> 
> Yep, keyring attachment, not lanyard holes, please. At least make them large enough that a ring can be used with a cut to one side so the light can stand on it's end.



Don't worry, there should be no rings, take a look of this beamshot of the reflector:











About 2 meters (6.5 feet) to the ceiling.

Stay tuned 


Pablo


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## Groundhog66 (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: Neoca 18650 - 1st renderings*

Looks great


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## HEY HEY ITS HENDO (Feb 28, 2008)

smooooooooth crenelation free bezel for me pab.!
.................... anyone else?


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## RecycledElectron (Feb 28, 2008)

That's a beautiful beam. 

I'll take mine smooth too. Don't need crenelation.

Looks good.


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## Tronic (Feb 29, 2008)

With or without crenelation is not very important to me.
But I prefer crenelated head.

Nice and smooth beam! :rock:


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## Lightmania (Feb 29, 2008)

I love the simplicity of it and am still interested in this light. Did the runtime went as long as predicted in your first post?

Looking good, PEU!


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## Wattnot (Mar 1, 2008)

Color me interested. :thumbsup:


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## PEU (Mar 3, 2008)

Time has come to start making a new prototype, photos as soon its made 


Pablo


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## Gryloc (Mar 3, 2008)

PEU,

So far, I like the prototypes. Good job! I like the idea of the head being the twisty part versus the tailcap being the twisty switch. I hope that your heatsinking is very good (both from emitter to head, and head to body). 

It is nice that you are adding in a slightly more "throwier" reflector (is that even a word? -only on the CPF). However, how does that beam compare to that of one of Don's McR reflectors? I mean, which LED and reflector type is your beam comparable to? It is neat seeing that you could get a throwy beam from a 10mm deep reflector. It must use a very short section of the parabolic curve. Did you design the reflector yourself? Did you machine and coat the reflector? How does the Cree XR-E emitter like such a shallow reflector? I see beamshots, but can you come up with a rough lux-per-lumen value of your reflector (center lux at 1m divided by estimated emitter lumen)? Fraen does something similar, and I just wanted to get a good idea of how bright your light will be. 

Have you determined how much current will be sent to the emitter yet? Will you have a high mode with current levels similar to a Fenix on high or Turbo? The 18650 will not mind the load, and the body has to have more mass and surface area than a typical Fenix. Runtime will be a plus in comparison due to the use of the larger li-ion.

Finally, you are using a 10mm deep reflector. What is the diameter of your reflector? Will you allow your light to be able to be opened and modified? Is it possible that the heatsink surface that the Cree (or Seoul or K2 or whatever) can remain totally flat? I was wondering because you could easily fit three Rebel 0100 on the heatsink, then use 3 slightly modified McR-10R reflectors that will fit within the ~10mm depth. With a Fatman, or other boost circuit, you could get a very bright 18650 flashlight, even if you deliver only a few hundred milliamps to the emitters, due to the higher efficiency at lower currents. For example, if powered with a total of around 3W, you can get 300lm in a usable beam, but when you underdrive further, the output is still very nice! Just a though...

-Tony


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## PEU (Mar 4, 2008)

Im trying to be loyal to my original design idea and also introducing some of the suggested modifications: mostly flood beam, added a reflector for "some" throw and a lot of runtime, meaning not pushing the Cree XRE to its limit.

Using a McR reflector will turn this into an almost throw no flood flashlight.

Here is a comparission of the reflector Im using against the same size McR:






You can clearly see the height difference, thus the difference between flood & throw.


Pablo


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## PEU (Mar 5, 2008)

Prototype head ready:






Sorry for the crappy photo quality 

Comments:

The top sealing oring should be more hidden in the final version, I made an extra pass and I removed too much material there  you know is far easier to remove material than to put it back 

Next in the queue is the body


Pablo


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## Walt175 (Mar 5, 2008)

Ohhhh, NICE! Can't wait to see the finished product.


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## Daekar (Mar 6, 2008)

I'm VERY glad to see you're making progress on this one! Keep it up, it looks like you're working on my new EDC...


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## Vikas Sontakke (Mar 7, 2008)

May be I am in minority but after playing with KD buckle light, I am convinced that for small pocket light SSC wins. It gives the best possible beam for medium distance use. SSC based light can have shallow reflector resulting is shorter length of the light. Yes, they can not throw like Cree but they are lot more useful in actual usage for short and medium distance.

For example, Romisen RC-F4 has very good throw but for short and medium distance the contstrst between hotspot and spill is just too much.

If you have to use the lense and reflector, then it is paramount to keep the total length of the light in check.

- Vikas


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## PEU (Mar 10, 2008)

Well, I almost finished making the 3rd prototype, Im quite happy with it. While applying it the final touches to the body I had the tube almost destroyed you will see some chuck marks near the head 

Luckily I managed to save it, but now it shows the scars, I decided not to touch it anymore, better show the scars than a destroyed body. Please forgive the knurling mismatches 

One thing I noticed is that the body knurling needs to be at least twice as wide, that little band is not enough with this light knurling, maybe a more agressive one does the trick.

Here are the photos, I also added a size comparission, hope you all like it:
























Pablo


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## RecycledElectron (Mar 10, 2008)

Absolutely beautiful. Scars and all. So, when can I buy a couple of them?


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## worldedit (Mar 10, 2008)

Looks great, would be even more comfortable in the pocket if roundet at front and rear. My cellphone is pretty angular and it leaves marks on my pants.


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## Vikas Sontakke (Mar 10, 2008)

I always wanted to know; "how do you do the knurling?" How do you make sure that the starting point registers perfectly with the ending point? I hope you know what I am asking. An example would be wall-papering a round pole and making sure the pattern has no discontinuity as the two ends meet.

- Vikas


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## Tronic (Mar 10, 2008)

RecycledElectron said:


> Absolutely beautiful. Scars and all. So, when can I buy a couple of them?


+1 

Great work! :rock:


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## PEU (Mar 10, 2008)

worldedit said:


> Looks great, would be even more comfortable in the pocket if roundet at front and rear. My cellphone is pretty angular and it leaves marks on my pants.



Is that a flashlight or you are happy to see me  

The prototype edges are filleted at about 0.5mm radius so edges arent sharp.


Pablo


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## PEU (Mar 10, 2008)

Vikas Sontakke said:


> I always wanted to know; "how do you do the knurling?" How do you make sure that the starting point registers perfectly with the ending point? I hope you know what I am asking. An example would be wall-papering a round pole and making sure the pattern has no discontinuity as the two ends meet.
> 
> - Vikas



A reply to this would be more suitable in the Machining area, but the short answer is: 
Knurling is not a metal removing operation, the metal gets "displaced" so you see valleys and peaks, once a full turn is made (usually by hand) the knurler wheels "fall" into the valleys and they self adjust, if not done properly you see a very fine knurl which means the knurler didnt fall into the initial valleys and tried to make a new one. Am I clear? some pictures would help this explanation, but this is beyond the scope of this thread.

Have fun


Pablo


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## Grumpy (Mar 11, 2008)

Very nice.
Will it have place for lanyard?


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## PEU (Mar 11, 2008)

Grumpy said:


> Very nice.
> Will it have place for lanyard?



Check this post in this same thread.


Pablo


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## Grumpy (Mar 11, 2008)

PEU said:


> Check this post in this same thread.
> 
> 
> Pablo



Got it.

Thanks


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## mkphc (Mar 11, 2008)

Any info on a price, delivery date, performance,?

Very interesting!


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## PEU (Mar 12, 2008)

mkphc said:


> Any info on a price, delivery date, performance,?
> 
> Very interesting!



I will ask for the CNC shop quote next week, then I need to decide what converter to use, Im still hoping about making my own for cost savings and features, but if it delays too much, I will go with a premade one. 
Regarding performance, I don't plan to hit the Cree LED at full current, I prefer more runtime. 
Price will swing around $100 I guess, how much is that swing? well that depends on what I just typed above  


Pablo


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## PEU (Mar 14, 2008)

Progress is being made in the driver dept 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/192206


Pablo


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## PEU (Mar 16, 2008)

What do you guys think about the driver levels? Time ago I made a poll (check here) and the most popular choice was 1%-30%-100% I'm testing that combination and the results are nice, I also tested 1%-10%-100% (as Don suggested in that poll) and the results are good too.

Thats about the levels, but what about the current to the LED, you guys want this flashlight set to blind power or you want a lot of runtime?

My choice is a load & forget setup, meaning Im cool with a drive level of around 300~400mA at maximum. Using a Cree Q5, this would give around 5 hours at the top level, 2days+ (10%) and around 20 days at low level.

Comments?


Pablo


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## RecycledElectron (Mar 16, 2008)

I've recently acquired a Rexlight Q2 2.1 0002. It has about the perfect amount of light, spot and spill for my uses. It's replaced my Olight T15 in my pocket. Doesn't throw as far, but has better runtime on 14500, is smaller and generally more useful. Split is about 5 lumen/80 lumen/150 lumen. It's driver is extraordinarily efficient. So, 3%/50%/100%. 1% instead of 3% would work for low.

I feel the need to have 125 lumen minimum out the front at 100%. I don't know what that'll do to your runtime charts, but less is unacceptable. I might use it at whatever you choose for medium most of the time - 40-60 lumen - but for a general purpose EDC, I may need to light up what I can light up with 125 lumen, like my RC-F4 does.

I believe that the Q5 is rated at 107 lumen at 350 ma. The RC-F4 hits a P4 with about 550-600 ma, puts a measured 125 lumen out the front. If you hit the Q5 with 450 -500 ma, you'll get about 2+ hours runtime on high. Maybe 10-12 hours on medium. Plenty of light, good runtime.

Edit: Comparison with the Gotham.
http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2901
Drive Currents:
Max (a.k.a. High): 900mA
Medium: 270mA
Low: 54mA
Ultralow: 2.3mA
Max, Medium and Ultra Low look good to me. The Gotham driver is claimed to be 90% efficient. 500 ma at the Q5 would be less than 600 ma from the battery if your driver is equally efficient.


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## worldedit (Mar 17, 2008)

I like to have a drive level at the most efficient point of the led, which is about 350mA i think. Of course a long runtime level (50-100mA?). I would also loke to see an "omg its so bright" level at 800+, but i guess that wont happen.


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## PEU (Mar 17, 2008)

Remember that Q5 LEDs put more light with less current. So if you compare by brand, look for the ones with Q5s 


Pablo


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## RecycledElectron (Mar 17, 2008)

P4 vs Q5.
P4, 180 lumen at 900ma. Q5 about 30% more efficient so 180 lumen at 630 ma.
150 lumen to get 120-125 out the front is approx a 20% reduction so 80% of 630 is about 504 ma. 

Based on the Gotham's specs. Of course with a R2, it could be about 10% more efficient.  Then you could perhaps get 125 out the front at 450 ma.


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## mcmc (Mar 17, 2008)

I vote for 1% - 10% - 100% -> this gives an even, logarithmic spread.

And, I vote for blinding power on max =)


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## dizzy (Mar 17, 2008)

I would like the low to be as LOW as possible, maybe 1 lumen or so.

I would also prefer the high to be as HIGH as possible , within reason (no harmful effects to the LED) for blinding if needed.

The medium has to only be bright enough for safely walking on a moonless night, or general tasks, with a good long runtime.

These are only my preferences, not to rock the boat at all.


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## Tronic (Mar 17, 2008)

I vote for 1% - 10% - 100% and maximum 500mA to the LED.
Be sure to set the PWM rate high enough. Everything above 300Hz is good to me.


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## PEU (Mar 17, 2008)

Im using 200Hz, with my 40years old eyes I have to move the led pretty fast to notice any flicker.


Pablo


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## PEU (Apr 9, 2008)

PEU said:


> Im using 200Hz, with my 40years old eyes I have to move the led pretty fast to notice any flicker.



Sorry for the lack of updates, but I been working on the driver all these weeks, I changed again the design IMHO for the better. 

*Now the 3 levels are current controlled, so no PWM is used at all.*

The ON-OFF-ON is very relaxed, no need to do it fast at all, and last mode is remembered.

I hope I can make a small test run of this driver. It has maximum current of around 720mA, works from 2,9v to 6v (full spec current starts at around 3.4v)

Almost forgot, driver diameter is 0.55" (14mm)

Tomorrow if time allows will make some tables with the driver efficiency.


Pablo


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## olrac (Apr 9, 2008)

I am so down for this light!


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## Bullzeyebill (May 18, 2008)

How is progress? Quite a bit of time since last post. Did you do efficiency testing? You settled on 1%-10%-100%? You are probably set in stone, but would you consider a higher middle level. I say this because middle level should be the work horse level, the level most used for edc purposes, saving high for the shot of brightness when needed.

Bill


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## dizzy (Aug 20, 2009)

What ever happened with this light? I've been away for quite a while and don't know if there was a new thread made for this.


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