# Huge leaps in incan performance/size ratio in the near future...



## mdocod (Sep 21, 2008)

Not from new bulbs, nope... 

Batteries, but I'm posting this here (in the incan forum) as I'm just brainstorming some new possibilities and the discussion excitement that can be fired up as a result of this is more related to what incan possibilities there are as a result of the new batteries, rather than the new cell itself. (I think)

Originally, AW posted some charts and graphs about his new cells in LuxLuthors safe chemistry shootout here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/205814&highlight=limn

And then I was reading this thread:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/207646

[email protected] spilled the beans about an RCR123 size LiMN chemistry cell. Sounds like AW might have this in the works, I am very curious as to whether there are any MORE sizes in the works besides the 18650 and RCR123 that have already been "leaked." I may just have to contact AW and see if he would be willing to share some more information on what other sizes we can expect....

This could really put some serious leverage back on the incan side for awhile. As many of you may know, LiMn is the chemistry found in "safe" chemistry li-ion cells in many popular new power tools. They are currently being manufactured by a number of companies, Molicel, Sanyo, and Sony, and likely others that have yet to be identified. 18650s and 26650 sizes are pretty common in power tools and not too hard to get ahold of. Sounds like AW will be bringing his own brand to the table, and based on pictures he has already posted, it appears that he is shooting for a complete consumer style cell with button top and all. 

For those who don't already know, a LiMN secondary cell is basically a 3.7V rechargeable cell, just like a "normal" cobalt chemistry cell, but who's chemistry is more stable, and more tolerant of abuse, and of lower internal resistance. They charge up to ~4.10-4.20V (depending on specific flavor of cell type) and can pretty much always be charged on a conventional li-ion single or multi-slot loose cell charger provided it is designed for 3.7V li-ion cells. I'm assuming that the specific chemistry AW will be using would follow this same charging guideline (just guessing here)... 

Anyways, these cells can handle serious current output. Usually to the tune of 10C or greater, but tend to have about 30% less energy density compared with liCo cells (cobalt chemistry cells). What this means is that, IN THEORY, we could be pushing many very high powered bulbs, with a handful of very small cells. Yes runtime will be short, but this opens up some new design possibilities worth looking at...

Here's some of the more obvious, and maybe some less obvious options that come to mind:

----------------------

*1xLiMn RCR123*

A 1xCR123 "P60"/"D-26" compatible host with any 3.7V incan lamp, (HO-4, EO-4, WE 3.7V, G&P 3.7V, etc etc)

A 1xCR123 LED light, modified to a P7 emitter, direct drive from this RCR123 (safely, and probably as bright as similar 1x18650 mods that people have done)... (yea, I know it's the incan forum, but this cell will break some new ground in this one LED area also, might as well mention it). 

----------------------

*2xLiMn RCR123:*

A 2xCR123 "P60"/"D-26" compatible host, running ANY lamp ordinarily reserved for larger pairs of li-ion cells. That includes the EO-9, P91, FMs 1794 w/D26 bi-pin module.

A 2xCR123 host with "SF M head" (converted, or otherwise), with Z46 bezel, running the HO-M3, EO-M3, or MN11

A 2xCR123 host with SF turbo-head installed, running The MN16, MN20, HO-M3T, EO-M3T, or, possibly even the MN21 (depends), or with the FM bi-pin to MN socket, a WA111, 5761 (maybe), and many other bi-pin bulbs ordinarily ran on 2x larger li-ion cells.

----------------------

*3xLiMn RCR123*

Want to turn your M3T (or equivalent lego) into an 1185? Here's your chance. Need an FM bi-pin >MN socket.

here's an easy one: HO-M6R in M3T.

----------------------

*4xLiMN RCR123*

overdrive a 12V G4 base bi-pin lamp that fits in a SF turbo reflector in an FM>Bi-Pin to MN socket. This could be done in a M4 (or equivalent lego) or an M6 (with the 2x18650 adapter, just laod RCR123s in it instead). 

----------------------

lets see, things get interesting now....

----------------------

*6xLiMn RCR123*


1.5D cut-down tri-bored mag, cells in a 3-abreast configuration, wired series, should be able to safely achieve 60W+ modifications. Not sure about specific bulb recomendations, but there are probably a number of 12V long life halogens that would work, may need a soft start or minor regulation.

----------------------

Ok... that's enough brain storming for me now... I don't want to start getting into all the options that could be done with other size cells until I have some confirmation of those cell sizes coming to fruition  

Ok- one teaser idea based on cells I have no idea about, a 64458 (or something similar) running on 6 17500s in a tri-bore 2D with regulation. 100+W 2D mags will have some more options open up, even approaching 200W. 

If you have any ideas, thoughts, I'd love to hear em 

Eric


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## DM51 (Sep 21, 2008)

Excellent news, very useful thread. 

I PM'd AW earlier today, and he replied that the new IMR-RCR123s will be available in 2-3 weeks time (mid Oct).


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## shakeylegs (Sep 21, 2008)

mdocod said:


> I am very curious as to whether there are any MORE sizes in the works besides the 18650 and RCR123 that have already been "leaked." I may just have to contact AW and see if he would be willing to share some more information on what other sizes we can expect....



AW has indicated that 18650 and rcr123 sizes are not far away and that D cells are in the works.


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## abarth_1200 (Sep 21, 2008)

I like the idea of a 1.5 cut down tri mag powering a 12V bulb, now that will be car headlight teritory and would like to see D size cells coming into this new chemstry


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## DUQ (Sep 21, 2008)

mdocod said:


> ----------------------
> 
> *1xLiMn RCR123*
> 
> ...




The above two options would be supremely awsome :rock:


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## cernobila (Sep 21, 2008)

Sounds very interesting........now, a practical question. What is the pro's and con's compared to the existing Li-ion range of cells from the RCR123 to the 18650 and "C" cells and even the "D" cells.

In other words, when should I choose the 2x Li-ion 18650's and when should I choose the new 2x 18650's.......and what would be the expected run times for say 6P 2x new RCR123's with EO-9 or P91?


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## leukos (Sep 21, 2008)

Better chemistry for less resistance is cool for hotwire guys, but I am still most interested in the possibilities of significantly increasing capacity: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/183485


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## ampdude (Sep 21, 2008)

Anytime I mention over in the LED forum how new battery technology will improve incans and eventually make runtime a non-issue people think I'm crazy.


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## lctorana (Sep 21, 2008)

shakeylegs said:


> AW has indicated that 18650 and rcr123 sizes are not far away *and that D cells are in the works*.


 
I'm just about hyperventilating


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## climberkid (Sep 21, 2008)

Well this could be very interesting for me when they come out. I am currently using an EO-9 in my 6P with 2 AW's and its bright as hell, but i am worried about anything happening so i havent run it for more than 6 seconds at a time now. I am definitely gonna get on the list of first buyers for some of these LiMN RCR123A batteries.


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## PhantomPhoton (Sep 21, 2008)

D cells will be freakin' sweet. :devil:

And RCR123's for high power + compact w/ short runtime won't be too bad either. I also wouldn't mind 14500 size if possible. A Quad bored D [email protected] with some of those babies sounds pretty nice too.


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## [email protected] (Sep 21, 2008)

Thanks for opening a new thread on this topic, Eric. 



> *Huge leaps in incan performance/size ratio in the near future...*
> Not from new bulbs, nope...
> 
> Batteries


 
Well, you are only half right there.
Batteries will be a "Great" leap, but with bulbs that are specially designed for them, now that's "Huge" leap. :twothumbs

We are doing our part in this evolution, as I said before, it will be a truly exciting time indeed.

Cheers.

Mark


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## FlashSpyJ (Sep 21, 2008)

All this is wonderful news indeed!

Im starting to regret I sold of some of my incan lights...

A SF E1E with better runtime, and a high output bulb from LF would be really great, might have to buy a new E1E...


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## mdocod (Sep 21, 2008)

cernobila said:


> Sounds very interesting........now, a practical question. What is the pro's and con's compared to the existing Li-ion range of cells from the RCR123 to the 18650 and "C" cells and even the "D" cells.



Pros: Higher current capable
Cons: Lower capacity



> In other words, when should I choose the 2x Li-ion 18650's and when should I choose the new 2x 18650's.......and what would be the expected run times for say 6P 2x new RCR123's with EO-9 or P91?



If you come up with a configuration that would have less than 30 minutes of available runtime on LiCo cells, then that would be the time to use LiMn chemistry cells, if runtime is estimated as being longer than 30 minutes on LiCo, then sticking with LiCo is fine, but in some cases, there will be reasons to go with LiMn anyways.

Given that a modern RCR123 LiCo cell has about 600mAH capacity, I would assume that a LiMn RCR123 will have about 400mAH real capacity. In theory, the maximum recommended discharge rate would be somewhere between 3 and 5 amps depending on a number of various factors. Capacity under heavy loads, would be more like 300mAH, Runtime on a P91 would be maybe 6-7 minutes, or on a EO-9, 9 minutes. 

OR...Around 3 minutes on a MN21, but this might not be an option, I'm guessing that upper end limit for RCR123 size LiMn will be closer to current demands of the 1794, WA1111, and WA1185. (in the ballpark of 3 amps)...


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PhantomPhoton said:


> I also wouldn't mind 14500 size if possible. A Quad bored D [email protected] with some of those babies sounds pretty nice too.



I couldn't agree more. Even simple mag mods with 3 abreast configurations could move into more serious power classes with 14500 cells in this chemistry. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



[email protected] said:


> Well, you are only half right there.
> Batteries will be a "Great" leap, but with bulbs that are specially designed for them, now that's "Huge" leap.



Sounds great mark....

Wait... so you are going to build the high current lamps I requested you build years ago?? lol.... 

So have you figured out a way to fit a 11V 5+A (50+W) bulb into a D36?

Or.... how about a 7.2V lamp that runs at 10 amps.... Mounted to an "MN" style base? 

Please do share!

Eric


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## Juggernaut (Sep 21, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for opening a new thread on this topic, Eric.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
This man truly is one of the reasons we never have to worry about LEDs leaving us behind:thumbsup:. I can’t wait to see what you guys will cook up next:naughty:.


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## divine (Sep 21, 2008)

Now we can try to burn through our UCL lenses, too. :twothumbs


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Sep 22, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for opening a new thread on this topic, Eric.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sweet news! 

Bring those new lamps Mark!


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## StarHalo (Sep 22, 2008)

Looking forward to putting a LF UEUO-9 (Ultimate Extreme Unreasonable Output) in a 6P host :thumbsup:


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## tsl (Sep 23, 2008)

If I think I'm reading the posts correctly, the technology will allow safer, greater current draw ... but with the reduced capacity, runtime will be terribly short. Just my opinion, but I don't see that as a huge leap.

I've been waiting for the battery technology to catch up so that I could use a 2 x 17500 (or perhaps 2 RCR 123s) in a C3 or M3 with a high output bulb. That would alleviate the need to either bore out the body or use a different body for 18500s.

Will this technology (whether in RCR form or in a 17500 form if that becomes available) allow this? And will runtime improve?


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## DM51 (Sep 23, 2008)

mdocod said:


> Or.... how about a 7.2V lamp that runs at 10 amps.... Mounted to an "MN" style base?


Mark, to add to Eric's suggestion here for bulbs for the SF turbohead, any chance of a range of Ultra-High-Output bulbs with the shorter MN10/11-size pillar, so they could be run in an M3? There could be one that runs off 3x IMR-123-size, another running off 2x IMR-17500-size... _drooooll_...


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## Bimmerboy (Sep 23, 2008)

I'm pretty psyched over this topic. But, I do confess one fear, which I hope does not pan out... that some bulbs, already pushing the envelope (pun intended  ) pretty hard under LiCo usage (and it's attendant sag curves), may instaflash when pushed by IMR's of equivalent size. 

Driving an 1185 with 3 X IMR123's may not be an issue, but I worry for my H1499's on two of 'em in a 6P (w/ FM D26 socket/reflector). Guess there's only one way to find out! Only willing to sacrifice two _at most_ though in the name of science. That's where future LF lamps may well fill a really nice niche along with IMR's... reliability, along with the brightness.

I'd also like to try FM's T1.5 Axial with three of these little bad boys in a 9P. If it holds up, the devilgrin smiley just might be inadquate to describe the results... we'll see.

Taking it even further, can you imagine the 1185 in a 9P?! One could brightly flood an entire suburban back yard with what many consider an EDC light. Yeeeowwww...

Might have to suggest (and hope, and pray for) a T2-1/4 D26 socket in What is missing?


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## [email protected] (Sep 23, 2008)

Don't worry guys, we will have a New Series and it will include all the popular assemblies, since, hey, we already have the freaking modules in our warehouse, right? Design a new bulb, fit it in and bam, freshly baked muffin.

StarHalo, 

We have already decided the names and NO, it will definately NOT be "UEUO". "Ultimate Extreme Unreasonable Output" sound like something that is on a T-Shirt with an arrow pointing down. :twothumbs

Yeah, I gotta go finish my can of Guinness. 

Cheers, mates.

Mark


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## divine (Sep 23, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Design a new bulb, fit it in and bam, freshly baked muffin.


Where do you keep the muffins on your website?


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 23, 2008)

I am not sure that I can get excited about the new LiMn in a CR123 package. What would better serve my purposes right now would be a true 18mm size RCR123 that would hold a real 750mAh. I do realize that a high discharge rate 17mm LiMn will serve those who are stuck with the stock SF diameter tubes, and MagLite stock bodies, and have no interest in boring them out. Also, these new cells will be compatable with the M6 battery holder.

Bill


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## cernobila (Sep 23, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> What would better serve my purposes right now would be a true 18mm size RCR123 that would hold a real 750mAh. I do realize that a high discharge rate 17mm LiMn will serve those who are stuck with the stock SF diameter tubes, and MagLite stock bodies, and have no interest in boring them out.
> 
> Bill



Now that's a pretty good idea, an 18mm RCR123 cells, make the most out of the space inside the 18650 bodies.......but maybe the SF guys would complain that they cant fit them inside their 6P's.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 23, 2008)

Having worked with many of the new safe lithium chemistry cells (in 18650 & 26700 sizes), I see them not as heralding a "huge" leap in incan performance, but rather a leap in safety & higher currents. 

Pila/AW's protection PCB resolved most of the safety concerns. Unfortunately safe lithium chemistriy benefits are tempered by limited sizes & reduction in capacity which limits run time...magnified if you use a higher current bulb.

To me the biggest incan limitation is lack of regulated driver (in addition to soft starting and low voltage protection), which is why I closely follow AlanB's public project here. You get this working, then there will be a quantum leap with incands.


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 23, 2008)

cernobila said:


> Now that's a pretty good idea, an 18mm RCR123 cells, make the most out of the space inside the 18650 bodies.......but maybe the SF guys would complain that they cant fit them inside their 6P's.



There is a thread started re 18mm RCR123's. Have to do some searching.

Bill


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## mdocod (Sep 23, 2008)

I realize this isn't a combined leap in performance and runtime, but it's still a big step forward. 

Think about a really high performance electric RC car, some of them only run for 5 minutes. Building a compact superbright incan with LiMn cells would be the same type of concept, you don't care how long it lasts, you just want those few minutes to be absolutely nuts 

The way I see it, the 18650 and 26670ish size safe chemistry cells made some really nice new configurations possible, especially for elephant ad C body setups, but nothing has come along that will allow a pocket size light to steel a little thunder from the LED lumen race. The RCR123 size LiMn cells will allow some configurations in EDC sizes that jump ahead of LEDs in output for a while. (until someone mounts 3 MCEs in a D26 size head, lol).


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## lctorana (Sep 23, 2008)

Yes. We're on the quarter-mile dragstrip here.


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## cernobila (Sep 23, 2008)

lctorana said:


> Yes. We're on the quarter-mile dragstrip here.



LOL.....or perhaps a "flash in the pan" ?


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## CM (Sep 23, 2008)

I'd love to see a PWM driver for this. Flat regulation of LED's just got me spoiled. But if these are really low internal resistance, they just may have flat enough discharge to obviate any need to PWM.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 23, 2008)

mdocod, I realize what you are saying,  but I have no misconceptions that incands will ever be seen as a valid form of illumination by LED Jockeys. :kiss: 

They would no more consider a 2-3 minute flash in the pan as a huge leap forward,  than being able to appreciate a 64623 starting paper on fire without spouting some silly lumen/watt inefficiency disqualifiers. :sigh:


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## DM51 (Sep 25, 2008)

I am wondering about one possible issue with using IMR-123 (LiMn) cells in an M6 with the stock MB-20 battery holder. Do we know what amperage the wiring in the MB-20 will tolerate? 

The maximum with CR123A primaries and the MN21 is ~5A, but with the LiMn cells a higher-current bulb will be possible, and I wonder whether the wiring will stand up to that without over-heating or possibly failing, as happened with the Petzl Myo headlamps when they were used with more powerful cells.


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## yellow (Sep 25, 2008)

hmm :thinking:
I dont read any _huge increase in incan perfomance_.
Seems more an _increase in battery technology _


PS: what excactly is a 10 min runtime superbright/supersmall 1 CR123 light used for?


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## cernobila (Sep 25, 2008)

yellow said:


> hmm :thinking:
> I dont read any _huge increase in incan perfomance_.
> Seems more an _increase in battery technology _
> 
> ...



I was thinking the same thing. If you carry a small light on your person, don’t you want that light to be very reliable, give you good run time and practical useful amount of light? Does that mean that you have to carry many spares with you in your pockets?......I am sorry, I am trying to get excited about these new cells but don’t know why at the moment.


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## Burgess (Sep 25, 2008)

_


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## Bimmerboy (Sep 25, 2008)

yellow said:


> what excactly is a 10 min runtime superbright/supersmall 1 CR123 light used for?



Don't know about everyone else, but it's used exactly for the purposes of someone like me, needing to blast through all the light "pollution" around here, and who rarely needs that kind of power for more than a minute or two in EDC situations... like just last night for example!

If anyone cares to hear the story: Late afternoon, I get in the car, start pulling away, and hear a popping sound with each revolution of the right rear tire. Upon looking, I see this thick, U shaped piece of metal with both ends stuck into my fairly new, expensive-a$$ Michelin PS2! :scowl: :sick2:  :hairpull: :green: A street sweeper went by earlier, and probably dragged some home construction crap from down the street. Limped it to my mechanic, got it plugged (there goes the 189+ MPH speed rating  :shakehead ), and off I went.

It was dark when I got home, so I stopped before pulling up to the curb, grabbed the 6P w/ R2 drop-in that's kept in the car, and searched the road where I park in front of the house. There are streetlights up and down every block, and everyone's got their front house lights on, so the EDC Stylus Pro wasn't gonna' cut the mustard unless I felt like crawing around on all fours, searching by the square inch.

Moral of the story is... The R2 was plenty bright, and is great in many situations, but here's one of those times where the *color, and contrast* of a small incan of equal (or greater) power would have made scanning the road much easier. It's different than a bright LED. The shadows of every little pebble on the road are easier to see, and shiny objects "pop out" at you more. Even with the Cree's brightness, I really had to look hard to distinguish things on the road surface.




cernobila said:


> I am sorry, I am trying to get excited about these new cells but don’t know why at the moment.



Well, I'm excited! And, the biggest reason for me is pretty much described by the title of this thread. It's about the leap in incan performance/size ratio. I mean, really... even if one just uses a Carley 1499, at a measly 'ol 380 bulb lumens (hehe... already sounding better than the R2), in a 2 X IMR123 light, that's awesome! And, many more possibilities will be available.

I just simply like the idea of all this on an emotional level... sort of for the same reason that, to this day, I'm still blown away by the sheer horsepower of a late 80's Formula 1 engine. 1200+ HP from 1.5 liters! Of course, it could blow up any moment! But, riding the razor's edge between ultimate performance, and destruction is half the fun. It's also where you'll find the most highly skilled players in any game.

Anyway, I think it's now going to be a good while before we see a single die emitter match what we're about to see in the world of EDC incans.


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 25, 2008)

John, that is just a great post. Reminded me why I still like incans, though most of my lights are now LED. There is just no comparison color quality wise, at night, than the beam of an incandescent light. Two of my favorite setups are the M3 with the basic MN10, and the MN15 in my KT1, not small edc light though. I think I will take a second look at the smaller SF incan's, and try some different bulbs.

Bill


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## StarHalo (Sep 25, 2008)

cernobila said:


> I was thinking the same thing. If you carry a small light on your person, don’t you want that light to be very reliable, give you good run time and practical useful amount of light?



That's not quite it, the idea here is the possibility of a "pocket hotwire". You can get mind-warping, life-altering output numbers from a Mag-sized host because there are numerous battery types and configurations that can handle the drain; meanwhile in the EDC-sized realm, things have been somewhat held up by the limitations of the paltry few battery types and their respective discharge rates. 

These new batteries will probably create a whole new world of mini- and micro-"hotwires" and extreme output custom lights that will move the world of 400+ lumen lights down to the 6"-and-below category. Just as you wouldn't carry a Mag61 as your only light source, these would also not be life-or-death flashlights, rather impressive and blinding feats of engineering.


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## Icebreak (Sep 25, 2008)

It could be that some experiments with real lamps need to take place to see how these little cells deliver a spike or surge and just how much they sag. I’ve been keen on a pocketable WA1166 for some time now. I’m wondering if this is what was needed. At 2.00A and if mdcod’s capacity ball park estimate of 400mAh is close to being correct, that’s about 12 minutes which isn’t terrible. (Remember the M6 is really a 15 minute light even though it should run close to 20 minutes) What I’m wondering is if the power source will deliver 12V for about 800 lu or more like 11V for less than 700 lu. The difference of 100 or so lumens is not my concern, it’s the Kelvin to get that CRI up where we like it.

What if the capacity is more like 500mAh on a 2A load? Then we have about 15 minutes of 700 to 800+ full spectrum lumens from a 3 cell light. Is my pocketable SureFire WA1166 waiting for me just down the road? Hmmm. See that’s why the 1166 is such a peach…2.00 to 2.17 Amps.

Z66…I like the sound of it.


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## Raoul_Duke (Sep 25, 2008)

Standing By ( for some time now) with eager anticipation are my hosts:

- Minty Surefire 3P, ready for a D26 P7 module ( yep....... out of one cell the P7 will be a sweet 10 min monster.)

And although I'm guessing slightly less output than the P7.......

- E2D defender and tailcap on a balrog body and FM E2e bypin socket..and Litho 123 H1455 frosted carley.

- Vital gear FB2 with P91.

and I'm going to have a damn good go at the smallest 1185 in a 3 cell host. :sick2:

These last 3 should all provide some edcable good quallity incan lighting.


What will I do when my 10 minute flashlight runs out?....pull out another :nana:... these are all EDC able together...especially as the nights draw in and a coat is needed; Still, I will still end up having a 2D '623...but Have also been wondering how many IMR 123's will fit in a 2D tribore host.... With the IMR 'D's I'm going to break over the 30 Maglites limit that I'm struggling to keep to now. :devil:


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## lctorana (Sep 25, 2008)

Raoul_Duke said:


> Still, I will still end up having a 2D '623


Then buy one right now!
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/197038



Raoul_Duke said:


> ...but Have also been wondering how many IMR 123's will fit in a 2D tribore host


I reckon 10 - the tenth one would fit centrally and protrude into the tailcap.


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## Raoul_Duke (Sep 25, 2008)

lctorana said:


> Then buy one right now!
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/197038
> 
> 
> ...


:devil::devil:

I probably worded that incorectly...I meant I'd still be edc'ing a 623.
I already have one (623)...well 2 actually... one is actualy a FM one, from that thread :devil:


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## ampdude (Oct 15, 2008)

Wow. I posed a couple of questions in that thread AW. This is gonna be incredible, running a P91 in a two celled light.

Now I just need to locate a good fast charger for these cells. Got anything on the drawing board AW?


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## AW (Oct 15, 2008)

You can charge them as high as 1.5A which means you can fast charge them to 85% capacity in 20 minutes. The CV phase will take longer to fully charge the remaining 15%. And yes, I have something in the drawing board for these but I 'll tighten my lips until it is a sure thing.


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## shomie911 (Oct 15, 2008)

I'm thinking about buying a KT-2 for my FiveMega 2 x 18650 body and with the new AW IMR 18650 cells I'll be able to run basically any bulb I can throw at it. :twothumbs

It'll be my poor mans M6. :laughing:

Maybe I'll find one of FiveMega's Bi-pin bulb socket for MN lamp assemblies and throw in a *REALLY* high output bulb.

I can't wait.


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## mdocod (Oct 15, 2008)

Keep an eye on LumensFactory in the coming weeks. Some great bulb options are on the horizon 

Eric


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## cl0123 (Oct 15, 2008)

Any technology or gears that generate:


MORE lumens
MORE Run time
LESS weight and size
:twothumbs
Indeed it would be great to have something brighter that also runs longer in the two RCR123 form factor. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence


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## lctorana (Oct 15, 2008)

_Just a word of managing expectations - there is no runtime improvement promised at all with these new cells. If anything, it's the other way._

With that out of the way, I have a few Baldrick-style cunning plans:

a) 1 cell - running the "15W" or the LF EO-4 in a 501A, without needing to resort to that spring-crushing 18490 mod.

b) 2 cells - I can now run my LF EO-9 in a 501B rather than a 501C.

c) 3 cells - I'm hoping LF will release a EO-13 in D26 size...

d) I'm up for any pleasant LF surprises. And don't even get me started on other battery sizes...

And then there's FiveMega...


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## M.S (Oct 16, 2008)

I can't think of any bulbs for 3-4 cells that could be run in D26 head? 
But I'm going to run EO-9 in my wolfeyes explorer with led tailcap... 
(does that work?)


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## divine (Oct 16, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Well, you are only half right there.
> Batteries will be a "Great" leap, but with bulbs that are specially designed for them, now that's "Huge" leap. :twothumbs
> 
> We are doing our part in this evolution, as I said before, it will be a truly exciting time indeed.
> ...


Any news on an ETA? 

I want a bright E-series light.


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## [email protected] (Oct 16, 2008)

You will burn your hands in no time if we make a lamp for the E Series. Not to say the IMR Lamp's high current will kill your SF clicky outright.

We have already killed 3 of our clickies during testing, so it is twisty ONLY for the new lamps. (Unless we approve that it is usable, but we have yet to find one)
As of right now, NO Clicky setups <-No exceptions, please do not ask me if XXX clicky works or not. I will just say NO to everything.

I will post a sales thread soon because I don't want to highjack the thread, I will keep you guys posted.

Cheers,

Mark


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## Icebreak (Oct 16, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> We have already killed 3 of our clickies during testing...



Awesome. That's a good indicator of power.


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## mdocod (Oct 16, 2008)

Icebreak said:


> Awesome. That's a good indicator of power.



That's what I was thinking!!!!

I'm excited, IMR16340s are on the way, soon as LF is ready, I'll have a nice innocent looking 6P that eats LEDs for lunch, for maybe 8 minutes, lol. 

Eric


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## divine (Oct 16, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> soon


Okay.


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## shomie911 (Oct 16, 2008)

mdocod said:


> That's what I was thinking!!!!
> 
> I'm excited, IMR16340s are on the way, soon as LF is ready, I'll have a nice innocent looking 6P that eats LEDs for lunch, for maybe 8 minutes, lol.
> 
> Eric



I'm going to be using a Surefire 6P with my AW IMR16340 cells too but with a little more *turbo* 

My setup is going to be a Surefire 6P with a KT2 Turbohead and a MN16 lamp off of two AW IMR16340 cells.

That's going to be impressive. I can't wait until everything gets here.

I won't have any problems running this configuration right?

The MN16 is a 2.6 amp lamp. Well under the ~4 amps the IMR16340 cells can take.

I'm going to be getting a FiveMega MN Bi-Pin Adapter and a WA1111 once I have enough funds.

Can you say pocket rocket! 

(Runtimes probably going to be in the single digits, but who cares, I'm going to have the sun in *my* hands.)


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## mdocod (Oct 16, 2008)

shomie911

That will work just fine  Also consider the EO-M3T as an alternative to the MN16, some people prefer the beam shape and output is pretty similar. 

You might also want to wait to see what LF is coming out with in the near future. Some new configuration options are on the horizon, I can't say more, but there is a bright future ahead 

------------------------------------------------------

[email protected],

Feel free to discuss anything you would like about the IMR project right here. This thread is a perfect place to do just that, don't worry about a "hijack" as it's all very relevant. AW and you are on the forefront of this and I see nothing wrong with a few shameless plugs here in this thread 

Eric


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## shomie911 (Oct 16, 2008)

Thanks _mdocod_!

Anyway, couldn't find any pictures of the Surefire 6P/KT2 combo, so I made a quick mockup.







Back on topic, these new cells are paving the way for small lights that blow away LED lights of similar size.

Incandescent is not dead yet. :thumbsup:


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## Icebreak (Oct 16, 2008)

mdocod said:


> Feel free to discuss anything you would like about the IMR project right here. This thread is a perfect place to do just that, don't worry about a "hijack" as it's all very relevant. AW and you are on the forefront of this and I see nothing wrong with a few shameless plugs here in this thread



I agree. It's an outstanding use of the dual forum system. Discussing stats, merits, configurations...that stuff here then conduct business in the market place.

I think it would be cool if FiveMega and other well known masters would chime in when they are ready. Who knows. Maybe somebody builds a 10A clicky.

Say, mdcod. Do you have an opinion on a WA1166 on four cells? The voltage range would fit what I do now with NiMhs but I'm concerned that these bad *** cells won't sag enough and will deliver too much punch in amperage for that configuration. I think 3 cells would work but that's not even speck. 10.8 would be perfect for the 1185 but I'm interested in seeing the runtime from the slightly over 2A 1166. 15 minutes would be cool...or hot depending on how you look at it.


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## PhantomPhoton (Oct 16, 2008)

_Only_ 10A on the clickie? Bah! Think bigger! :laughing:

I'm personally hoping to see some axial bulb options for smaller lights so that we can use vlop or smo reflectors to get some great throw as well.

Any word yet on what size cells we can expect other than the obvious RCR123 and 18650?


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 16, 2008)

What is the amperage limit for a Surefire C series clicky? How about a McClicky, a la RPM's C tailcaps?

Bill


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## mdocod (Oct 16, 2008)

Icebreak said:


> Say, mdcod. Do you have an opinion on a WA1166 on four cells? The voltage range would fit what I do now with NiMhs but I'm concerned that these bad *** cells won't sag enough and will deliver too much punch in amperage for that configuration. I think 3 cells would work but that's not even speck. 10.8 would be perfect for the 1185 but I'm interested in seeing the runtime from the slightly over 2A 1166. 15 minutes would be cool...or hot depending on how you look at it.



I don't think it's worth the hassle of dealing with a 4 cell length configuration to achieve the output of the 1166, At the same time, 4 of these cells would very likely instaflash the 1166. LuxLuthor flashed his in testing on a bench power supply at 14.1V, that doesn't take into count the effects of inrush current when firing up from a battery. If AWs discharge charts for these cells are accurate, I would suspect that you would see over 15V on startup into an 1166 on 4 fully charged cells. Not going to work. 

There are a number of 2x18650 bulb options that will compete with an 1166 output wise, while at the same time, being less complicated with only 2 cells to charge. 

Eric


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## ampdude (Oct 16, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> You will burn your hands in no time if we make a lamp for the E Series. Not to say the IMR Lamp's high current will kill your SF clicky outright.
> 
> We have already killed 3 of our clickies during testing, so it is twisty ONLY for the new lamps. (Unless we approve that it is usable, but we have yet to find one)
> As of right now, NO Clicky setups <-No exceptions, please do not ask me if XXX clicky works or not. I will just say NO to everything.
> ...



Mark, I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but I would like to see an even brighter 7.2V lamp for the E-series. My EO-E2R is very bright, but only draws 800ma off of two 17500's in my VG3. So I feel there is more potential there. 800ma is a walk in the park for 17500's and Surefire primaries that I use for backup can handle it fine as well.

I would really love to see a lamp near the output of the HO-9, a 17500+ only E-series in other words. Perhaps you could call it the IO-E2R (Insane Output).


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## mdocod (Oct 16, 2008)

I was just doing some more chart study (thank you LuxLuthor!)

I am beginning to think, that the brightest 2xIMR16340 setup possible, is a WA1160. If you wanted to match the output of an M6 on the standard CR123 pack with MN21 installed, in a 2xIMR16340 configuration, this would be it. 

Runtime would be, approximately 4-5 minutes  I'm not sure if the cells are up to the task or not. AW says in his sales thread that they are capable of 4.5A, but he also says 8C maximum continuous. To me, 8C means that the estimated runtime of the configuration needs to be at least 7 minutes and 30 seconds. However, I'm thinking that 4.5A is probably a perfectly safe "burst" rate discharge. These are, safe chemistry cells after-all.

keeping in mind, that configurations based around these cells pushed hard, are more "toys" than anything else, (though I can personally see a few professional use applications for them), destroying the cells in a really limit-pushing configuration shouldn't be a big deal.


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## mdocod (Oct 16, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> What is the amperage limit for a Surefire C series clicky? How about a McClicky, a la RPM's C tailcaps?
> 
> Bill



SureFire sells the P61, P91, MN11, MN16, and MN61, all of them pull around 2.4-2.5A on the CR123 cells they were designed for. And SureFire offers "clicky" switches for all of the flashlights that those lamps would ordinarily be found in.

I would have to assume, that if they are capable of handling 2.5A reliably, but I would also have to assume, that to build a switch that operates reliably at 2.5A, it would also have to operate reasonably reliably at 3A, and 3.5A, and maybe even higher. 

It would probably be difficult to build a switch that operates perfectly at 2.5A, that fails repeatedly at 3 amps. 

I'm not sure what current LF is planning on pushing. but I am actually pretty surprised to hear that they are experiencing so many SF clicky failures....

Has me wondering if they have just had some bad-luck clickies, lol.... SF has had plenty problems with their clickers. 

I think I have come to prefer the twist/push for most applications anyways, so that works for me. 

Eric


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## leukos (Oct 16, 2008)

Mark seemed to be talking about E series lights, maybe he was also referring to E series clickies failing?


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## Bimmerboy (Oct 17, 2008)

divine said:


> I want a bright E-series light.





[email protected] said:


> You will burn your hands in no time if we make a lamp for the E Series. Not to say the IMR Lamp's high current will kill your SF clicky outright.
> 
> We have already killed 3 of our clickies during testing, so it is twisty ONLY for the new lamps. (Unless we approve that it is usable, but we have yet to find one)
> As of right now, NO Clicky setups <-No exceptions, please do not ask me if XXX clicky works or not. I will just say NO to everything.



That is just rockin'. :rock:


Divine - Assuming AW's IMR123's don't flash the bulb, your best bet is Fivemega's E2e Bi-Pin socket running a TL-3. Should be impressively bright for such a small, pocketable thing, _and_ give some halfway decent runtime... all without scorching your digits down to smoldering nubs.

Wanna' be one of the first to test this out for us?  :wave:


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2008)

Thanks Eric for inviting me discuss a little more on the new projects.

Okay, I will try to answer the questions one by one here.

shomie911, 
I will safely say your setup is a ready good, should work well on a IMR setup. 

ampdude,
The EO-E2R was designed for 2 x RCR123 setups, so the current draw is a bit low for a 17500 setup.
But really, how many guys have the VG3? So, no "IO-E2R"
As for IMR E Series, the main concern here is your HAND. 
The E clicky could probably go 2A no problem, so we can develope a 7.2V 2A lamp. Which is basically a EO-9, a EO-9 on a E2E, your hand will turn "Well Done" pretty quicky.

leukos,
No, we know that the E clicky will definatley die so we didn't even bother to test it.
The clickies that died were from different manufacturers that claims to have high current tolerance clickies. 
I will not mention any names to be fair as their products were not intended to be used with IMR setups in the first place.


Cheers,

Mark


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## Icebreak (Oct 17, 2008)

Thanks, mdcod. That's what I thought might be the problem with 1166. I still may try it on 3 cells because I've learned that excellent current delivery can have a surprising effect on color. I'll just keep watching this thread and reading all the possible configurations people come up with. And of course I'll be watching for that 9 minute burner you've got cooked up. And most definitely reading anything Mark has to say.


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## ampdude (Oct 17, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> ampdude,
> The EO-E2R was designed for 2 x RCR123 setups, so the current draw is a bit low for a 17500 setup.
> But really, how many guys have the VG3? So, no "IO-E2R"
> As for IMR E Series, the main concern here is your HAND.
> The E clicky could probably go 2A no problem, so we can develope a 7.2V 2A lamp. Which is basically a EO-9, a EO-9 on a E2E, your hand will turn "Well Done" pretty quicky.



Yea, not many people. 

Since the newer AW 17500's are known for being able to run an EO-9, a 7.2V 2A E-series lamp would probably work with my setup as well, so I'm game. Runtime should be around 25 minutes.  I'm sure it would start cooking in no time with the thin VG3 body though, so I would have to be careful with it.


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## divine (Oct 25, 2008)

One of these cells makes my EO-E1R work beautifully.


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