# AW IMR-123 cells performance?



## gunga (Oct 22, 2008)

HI all.

I know some of you should be receiving your AW LiMn RCR123s soon.

I just wanted to start a thread so I could get a guage of performance of these cells.

How do they compare with the protected RCR123s? How about the other safe Chemistry, LiFEP04 cells? 

How are the runtimes of these cells? I know they can handle more current but I'm curious if the lower capacity is very bad?

Can they handle mild overcharging (ie Ultrafire chargers?). How badly are they damaged by overdischarge?

I am using both LiFEP04 cells (only limited use) and RCR123s (protected). I think I would prefer a cell that does not shut off with no waraning, leaving me in the dark...


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## AvroArrow (Oct 22, 2008)

You know gunga, that's a really good question that I've been wondering about myself. I've tried to dig around a bit and found some useful data. AW himself posted a discharge curve graph for his IMR16340 and LiFePO4s, but not his silver/black protected R123s. After some digging around I managed to find a few discharge graphs made by other CPF members on the performance of the black R123s and their results vary a bit so it may or may not be directly comparable with AW's own discharge curve graphs.

Here are links to different graphs:

IMR16340 (AW):
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2214963&postcount=1

LiFePo4 (AW):
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=1503626&postcount=2

R123 (Silverfox):
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1398595&postcount=1

R123 (Raymond):
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2445971&postcount=1

R123 (GrAndAG):
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2640030&postcount=57


Here's a quick incomplete summary:

At *0.5A* discharge, their capacities are as follows:
IMR16340: unknown
LiFePO4: 450mAh
black R123: 602mAh (Silverfox)
black R123: 570mAh (GrAndAG)
black R123: 557mAh (Raymond, avg of 2)

At *1.0A* discharge, their capacities are as follows:
IMR16340: ~ 515mAh
LiFePO4: ~ 420mAh
black R123: 419mAh (Silverfox)
black R123: unknown (GrAndAG)
black R123: 481mAh (Raymond, avg of 2)

At *1.5A* discharge, their capacities are as follows:
IMR16340: ~ 510mAh
LiFePO4: ~ 385mAh
black R123: 255mAh (Silverfox)
black R123: unknown (GrAndAG)
black R123: unknown (Raymond, avg of 2)

A note about Silverfox's graphs. His original post was made in May 2006 and last edited May 2007. AW released his black "high current" (max 1.5A discharge) R123 in Dec 2006, so I don't know if he tested the newer high current R123s or the older lower current R123s. The other thing is that his graphs cut-off at 2.5v, unlike Raymond & GrAndAG's graphs, both of which cut-off at 2.8V, so Silverfox's numbers actually a little higher than should be if you want to do a direct comparison.

The other thing about the graphs is that the LiFePO4s are on a differnt Y-axis scale because the starting and cut-off voltages are different from the IMR16340 and R123s (2.0V vs 2.8V), so I'm not certain if they are directly comparable. 

So what does this all mean? At a 0.5A current draw, the R123>LiFePO4. I don't know where the IMR16340s fit in because there's no data for them at 0.5A draw. At 1.0A draw, the IMR>R123>LiFePO4. At 1.5A draw, IMR>LiFePO4>R123. This last bit is uncertain because I don't know which AW cell Silverfox tested and I can't find anyone else's graph testing the R123 at 1.5A. 

What would be really useful is if AW produced a graph of the high current R123 so it would be more easily comparable. It would also be nice if he added 0.5A draw data for the IMR16340s too.


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## StarHalo (Oct 22, 2008)

LiMNs mean we can make 380 lumen Surefire 2x123 lights (and will soon go beyond that as Lumens Factory accommodates LiMN cells), once you start getting those kinds of output numbers, I start to lose interest in runtime.. :devil:


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## shomie911 (Oct 22, 2008)

I was using AW RCR123 cells in my Surefire C2 (with LM HO-9) last night doing some work outside around the house when it suddenly cut out.

For the first second I thought the lamp burned out but then I remembered that AW cells have protection circuits and that they cut out instantaneously.

I have a pair of IMR16340 cells on the way so that doesn't happen again when more is counting on the light than around the house stuff.

Plus since the HO-9 is a 1.5 amp bulb, it will get slightly better runtime as well as slowly grow dimmer indicating I need to charge them.

I think the C2 with the HO-9 and IMR16340 is going to be a winning combination thanks to the durability of the host as well as the durability of these new cells.

Now I don't have to worry about my light becoming a grenade in my hand. :laughing:


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## shomie911 (Oct 22, 2008)

StarHalo said:


> LiMNs mean we can make 380 lumen Surefire 2x123 lights (and will soon go beyond that as Lumens Factory accommodates LiMN cells), once you start getting those kinds of output numbers, I start to lose interest in runtime.. :devil:



You're thinking too small! 

Surefire 6P with KT1 (or KT2) and an FM Bi-Pin MN Adapter with WA1111 bulb.

Somewhere around ~1000 lumens.


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## StarHalo (Oct 23, 2008)

shomie911 said:


> You're thinking too small!



I meant using only a drop-in, no modding (LF EO-9). It would still be interesting to see an EDC-sized 5761..


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## thevainone (Oct 23, 2008)

shomie911 said:


> You're thinking too small!
> 
> Surefire 6P with KT1 (or KT2) and an FM Bi-Pin MN Adapter with WA1111 bulb.
> 
> Somewhere around ~1000 lumens.


 

beem shots? and where do i buy that setup


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## ampdude (Oct 23, 2008)

> At *1.5A* discharge, their capacities are as follows:
> *IMR16340: ~ 510mAh*
> LiFePO4: ~ 385mAh
> *black R123: 255mAh (Silverfox)*
> ...



That's quite impressive. I used to run an HO-9 in a C3 Surefire with 17500's, and it looks like I should be getting close to the same runtime with these new cells in a 2 cell light. The HO-9 I had was more like 1.6A.


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## AW (Oct 23, 2008)

Unlike lithium cobalt cells, the LiMN cells will hold a higher voltage and maintains 80% of their rated capacity even up to a 8C load. This is the reason they'll perform better on higher loads ( 2C and beyond ).


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## gunga (Oct 23, 2008)

How are they at lower loads?


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## AW (Oct 23, 2008)

You won't see much difference between the two at lower loads (0.5-1C) except runtime difference.



gunga said:


> How are they at lower loads?


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## gunga (Oct 23, 2008)

So at lower loads it is basically 550 mAh vs 750 mAh?


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## mdocod (Oct 23, 2008)

Keep in mind that since these cells are wasting no space to a PCB circuit, they are not far behind a protected RCR123 in capacity. I would personally say that these cells are going to perform nearly as good or better at any load in the 1.2-1.5A range (that's the P90, SR-9, G90, WE 9V D26, HO-9 etc etc) compared to the regular protected cells. Anything at or over 1.5A and these cells will win hands down in all categories; performance, capacity, cycle life etc. 

Mine are on the way. I'll have more to say when I have had a chance to run em a bit. 

Eric


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## M.S (Oct 23, 2008)

They run EO-9 nicely.... I have had my cells now for few days. I'm using them to run EO-9 in wolfeyes explorer with led tailcap. It's like the A2 on steroids  
Now I need something insane for my M3, hopefully Lumens Factory will bring out the XO-M3 bulb. Did you notice that AW is working on softstarter and 3 level switch for surefire C/M/? series?


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## gunga (Oct 23, 2008)

How are the beneifts for LED lights?


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## mitch79 (Oct 23, 2008)

Can someone who has these cells please post the size measurements for them.
I'd like to know if they will fit in a A2 Aviator.

Thanks.


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## uhsodium (Oct 23, 2008)

M.S said:


> They run EO-9 nicely.... I have had my cells now for few days. I'm using them to run EO-9 in wolfeyes explorer with led tailcap. It's like the A2 on steroids
> Now I need something insane for my M3, hopefully Lumens Factory will bring out the XO-M3 bulb. Did you notice that AW is working on softstarter and 3 level switch for surefire C/M/? series?


I am waiting to have a HO-M6R on my M3T


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## AvroArrow (Oct 23, 2008)

AW said:


> You won't see much difference between the two at lower loads (0.5-1C) except runtime difference.



So which cell would last longer at 0.50-0.75*A* current draw levels? The IMR or the black RCR123? It's obvious that at 1A or higher current draw, the IMR cell is the better choice. 

I think what gunga is asking is which cell will last longer in a light that draws 0.50-0.75A from the battery (which is always more than what the circuit feeds the LED)?


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## gunga (Oct 23, 2008)

How about my other questions on safety and charging/discharging etc?


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## shomie911 (Oct 23, 2008)

gunga said:


> How about my other questions on safety and charging/discharging etc?



Li-Mn are safe cells as opposed to Li-ion cells.

So you shouldn't experience any problems charging or discharging them.


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## PhotonAddict (Oct 23, 2008)

They are safer with regards to over-charging/discharging (less likely to vent or explode) but you'd still want to avoid doing so on a regular basis. Even if they didn't blow as a result their lifespan will probably be reduced. Also, my understanding is that there is no short-circuit protection so if the cells are accidently shorted they will dump a _lot_ of current into whatever is causing the short so the usual precautions apply there as well.



gunga said:


> How about my other questions on safety and charging/discharging etc?


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## ampdude (Oct 23, 2008)

uhsodium said:


> I am waiting to have a HO-M6R on my M3T



Nice!!!! :twothumbs


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## ampdude (Oct 23, 2008)

I have a couple of RCR lithium-ions that fit my A2 with the labels peeled and a couple of 17500's that fit my VitalGear3 with the labels peeled, but I'm looking forward to upgrading to these safer, lighter cells.


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## Gunnerboy (Oct 23, 2008)

mitch79 said:


> Can someone who has these cells please post the size measurements for them.
> I'd like to know if they will fit in a A2 Aviator.
> 
> Thanks.




These fit fine in both my square-body & round-body A2's. They are *exactly *the same diameter as one of my SF CR123A's.

Cheers,
Gary


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## mitch79 (Oct 24, 2008)

Gunnerboy said:


> These fit fine in both my square-body & round-body A2's. They are *exactly *the same diameter as one of my SF CR123A's.
> 
> Cheers,
> Gary


Awesome, Thanks 

What do you get for runtime?

With my A2 modded with 100R resistors in the LED ring and a LF HO-A2 bulb I got 29min 20sec using AW's black RCR-123's charged to 4.15V.


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## Gunnerboy (Oct 24, 2008)

mitch79 said:


> Awesome, Thanks
> 
> What do you get for runtime?
> 
> With my A2 modded with 100R resistors in the LED ring and a LF HO-A2 bulb I got 29min 20sec using AW's black RCR-123's charged to 4.15V.




I'm actually using these cells with my FM1794 & LF HO-9 lamps. I was just curious to see if they fit in my A2's.

Your black AW R123's fit in your A2?? Mine are too fat, even without the wrapper.


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## mitch79 (Oct 24, 2008)

Gunnerboy said:


> Your black AW R123's fit in your A2?? Mine are too fat, even without the wrapper.


Yes my black AW RCR-123's fit my A2 with the labels removed.
I'm curious if the IMR-123's will give a longer runtime as it's right on the 2C max discharge current for the RCR-123 li-ions.


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## M.S (Oct 24, 2008)

The black AW:s need a bit of shaking to come out of my A2, but these new cells slide easily out.


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## gunga (Nov 7, 2008)

So anyone have any runtime tests vs the black protected AW cells?

Looking for lower current draws too...


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## Tohuwabohu (Nov 7, 2008)

gunga said:


> So anyone have any runtime tests vs the black protected AW cells?
> 
> Looking for lower current draws too...



Something like this?





With my EagleTac P10C on High I get approximately the same runtime with my 4 IMRs as with my 4 protected RCRs (black with silver label).
With 2 of the RCRs the P10C will start to flicker/strobe for several minutes at the end of the runtime. An effect of the overcurrent protection?

At lower current draws, tested with a Nitecore Extreme and a Nitecore EX10, the RCRs provide longer runtimes:


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## gunga (Nov 7, 2008)

WOW! Thanks!

Yes, just what I wanted. Now for medium/lowe modes...

:naughty:


I just ordered a set of IMRs, looking forward to safer cells.


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## Tohuwabohu (Nov 7, 2008)

gunga said:


> Yes, just what I wanted. Now for medium/lowe modes...


 I don't think runtime tests medium and low modes are worthwhile. It's obvious that the runtimes will be shorter with the IMRs than with the RCRs.
And the IMRs don't have a overdischarge protection. I'm afraid of missing the point when the cells are discharged when doing a runtime test.



> I just ordered a set of IMRs, looking forward to safer cells.


The IMRs may have a safer chemistry but the high currents they can provide can be dangerous. Did you read the thread "Dingo ate my tailcap!"?


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## Daniel_sk (Nov 7, 2008)

M.S said:


> Did you notice that AW is working on softstarter and 3 level switch for surefire C/M/? series?


  WOW! 
AW, any chance we will see this tailcap soon? (like before christmas? )
What about a single level version, just with the soft start function?


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## mdocod (Nov 7, 2008)

AvroArrow said:


> So which cell would last longer at 0.50-0.75*A* current draw levels? The IMR or the black RCR123? It's obvious that at 1A or higher current draw, the IMR cell is the better choice.
> 
> I think what gunga is asking is which cell will last longer in a light that draws 0.50-0.75A from the battery (which is always more than what the circuit feeds the LED)?



In a light that draws 0.5-0.75A from a single li-ion cell, the current to the LED is probably pretty similar to the current being drawn, and but possibly less depending on the cells state of charge. If it's a 2 cell flashlight, running at say, 0.5A from a pair of 3.7V cells, then there is probably about 1A running at the LED (give or take).

Eric


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## naked2 (Nov 7, 2008)

Great graphs Tohuwabohu! :twothumbs Especially since you covered my two _current _favorite EDCs (EX10 & P10C )!


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## mdocod (Nov 8, 2008)

I did a discharge test on an EO-9 in a 6P the other night, broken up into 5 minute segments (to keep the heat under control). Total runtime before sudden massive dimming was over 16 minutes. Average discharge rate was about 1.9A, by my calculations, the cells performed close to 500mAH capacity into a ~4C load. Quite impressive, considering that most LiCo RCR123s deliver ~500-600mAH into much less intense loads. 

I'd say that for most incan applications, where dimming will be noticed before the cells are over-discharged, these cells are going to be the better option compared to regular RCR123s. While there is some awesome potential for 5-10 minute running super-lights, I think these would be just as good for use in more conservative configurations, like the standard 1.2A of most standard output tactical lamps. The capacity is solid, and the output should be better on these cells than it would be on LiCo cells.

Eric


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## naked2 (Nov 8, 2008)

Plus you get the benefit of dimming to let you know it's time for a battery change, as opposed to sudden cut-off which can leave you in the dark! :candle: Potentially dangerous for me when crawling in an attic or under a house (electeician), or potentially lethal for others (LEO or military).


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## AilSnail (Nov 10, 2008)

I was making a li charger, but it didn't work, so I put 2parallell IMR onto a cellphone wallwart. I started to play cnc3, and by the time I looked at them, they were at 4.7V.  maybe they are destroyed.

I had been long waiting to try the N62 bulb for surefire T-heads. They are made for 4s primary Li. According to Brock's regular flashlight page, then it draws 3.7A @ 7.65V. I tested the two poor little abused buggers. Took 5-10 secs for it to go below 7.5V. 
Hard core cells for sure.


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## naked2 (Nov 10, 2008)

AilSnail said:


> I was making a li charger, but it didn't work, so I put 2parallell IMR onto a cellphone wallwart. I started to play cnc3, and by the time I looked at them, they were at 4.7V.  maybe they are destroyed.


At 4.7V you're lucky they didn't explode! But since they didn't, test their voltage again. If it's 4.2V or less (after sitting awhile), they're probably fine; maybe they'll just wear out sooner.

Btw (but I,m sure you already know this! ), you should only recharge them with a charger with overcharge protection!


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## mdocod (Nov 10, 2008)

The charge control on a cell phone is in the cell phone, the wall wart is just a power supply with ~5.5V output. Be interesting to see if those cells are still useful or not..

Eric





AilSnail said:


> I was making a li charger, but it didn't work, so I put 2parallell IMR onto a cellphone wallwart. I started to play cnc3, and by the time I looked at them, they were at 4.7V.  maybe they are destroyed.
> 
> I had been long waiting to try the N62 bulb for surefire T-heads. They are made for 4s primary Li. According to Brock's regular flashlight page, then it draws 3.7A @ 7.65V. I tested the two poor little abused buggers. Took 5-10 secs for it to go below 7.5V.
> Hard core cells for sure.


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## Curious_character (Nov 11, 2008)

Sure would be nice to see this chemistry in 10440 size. It's been pointed out that a conventional Li-ion 10440 is being asked to deliver more than its safe maximum current when used in some of the small AAA lights like the L0D and LF2.

c_c


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## willrx (Nov 12, 2008)

AilSnail said:


> I was making a li charger, but it didn't work, so I put 2parallell IMR onto a cellphone wallwart. I started to play cnc3, and by the time I looked at them, they were at 4.7V.  maybe they are destroyed.
> 
> I had been long waiting to try the N62 bulb for surefire T-heads. They are made for 4s primary Li. According to Brock's regular flashlight page, then it draws 3.7A @ 7.65V. I tested the two poor little abused buggers. Took 5-10 secs for it to go below 7.5V.
> Hard core cells for sure.



If I'm reading this correctly, will these power my 12ZM (N62 lamp) safely?


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## mdocod (Nov 12, 2008)

Yes, a pair of these should power a N62, not sure if it will be as bright as it is normally, I think for maximum output from a pair of these cells, a 64250 or WA1111 should be used instead of an N62 for various reasons. Mostly the fact that the N62 is rare, might be better to save as a sort of keepsake.


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## willrx (Nov 12, 2008)

Thanks.


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## FredericoFreire (Nov 12, 2008)

mdocod said:


> Yes, a pair of these should power a N62, not sure if it will be as bright as it is normally, I think for maximum output from a pair of these cells, a 64250 or WA1111 should be used instead of an N62 for various reasons. Mostly the fact that the N62 is rare, might be better to save as a sort of keepsake.



Should the WA1111 be brighter than the LF EO-M3T with two IMR-123 cells ?


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## AilSnail (Nov 12, 2008)

naked2 said:


> At 4.7V you're lucky they didn't explode! But since they didn't, test their voltage again. If it's 4.2V or less (after sitting awhile), they're probably fine; maybe they'll just wear out sooner.
> 
> Btw (but I,m sure you already know this! ), you should only recharge them with a charger with overcharge protection!




I used them immediately after overcgarging; now my charger works, so I have charged them again; They seem to rest at about 4.16v


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## AilSnail (Nov 12, 2008)

mdocod said:


> Yes, a pair of these should power a N62, not sure if it will be as bright as it is normally, I think for maximum output from a pair of these cells, a 64250 or WA1111 should be used instead of an N62 for various reasons. Mostly the fact that the N62 is rare, might be better to save as a sort of keepsake.



Have they got as small a filament, and how would you put one of those in a T1-head? I have a broken lamp somewhere but never got around to make a socket in it, not sure how? Is JBweld up to the temp?


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## mdocod (Nov 12, 2008)

FredericoFreire said:


> Should the WA1111 be brighter than the LF EO-M3T with two IMR-123 cells ?



WA1111/64250 option would be brighter than the EO-M3T. EO-M3T would run longer. Both are drag strip style configurations with pretty short runtime though. 

Eric


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## mdocod (Nov 12, 2008)

AilSnail said:


> Have they got as small a filament, and how would you put one of those in a T1-head? I have a broken lamp somewhere but never got around to make a socket in it, not sure how? Is JBweld up to the temp?



Most people including myself would say just use a FM bi-pin to MN socket.

There is a guide somewhere to taking a SF MN tower and installing bi-pin lamps... not sure where it is though. Maybe someone can link to it 

Eric


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## AW (Nov 15, 2008)

M.S said:


> Did you notice that AW is working on softstarter and 3 level switch for surefire C/M/? series?




I have two working prototypes built and is entering the final testing phase. I 'll offer two versions ( one for Z58/59 clickies and another for Z41 twisties ). The switch modules are built to fit exact SF tail cap size and will retain the original fit and water-tightness of the stock tail cap. No extra gap - of course. Lock out function with just a quarter turn. A simple drop in design that takes less than 2 minutes to install and is 100% reversible. They 'll work exactly like my Mag C/D smart incan drivers with the same UI. These switches will easily handle 75W of power. I am running one of them with a 5761 / two IMR18650s and the other with C3 / 1185 / three IMR16340s both with good results. I 'll have to say I love both setups regarding size / output / runtime on lower levels.


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## divine (Nov 15, 2008)

I'm wondering what the first setup with similar performance to a Mag623 will be with Lithium cells.

Maybe we can get the runtime to 15 minutes or so.


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## divine (Nov 15, 2008)

AW said:


> I am running one of them with a 5761 / two IMR18650s and the other with C3 / 1185 / three IMR16340s both with good results.


Just so you know, I'm taking that as a hint for the next size.


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## ampdude (Nov 15, 2008)

Those switches are amazing looking, even better than I imagined.
Soft start is such a great feature for incandescent.

*I'm waiting for the IMR's in 18500 and 17500 size.*

For me the IMR 16340's runtime is just a little bit too short for serious use, such as at work, though I am planning on upgrading my A2 Aviator with them and probably running some unfrosted EO-9's in a C2 with them as a 'wow' light. A four cell sized light, (2 X 18650) is impractically large for me.

Three cells are about the perfect balance for my typical needs.


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## DM51 (Nov 17, 2008)

AW said:


> I have two working prototypes built and is entering the final testing phase. I 'll offer two versions ( one for Z58/59 clickies and another for Z41 twisties ). The switch modules are built to fit exact SF tail cap size and will retain the original fit and water-tightness of the stock tail cap. No extra gap - of course. Lock out function with just a quarter turn. A simple drop in design that takes less than 2 minutes to install and is 100% reversible. They 'll work exactly like my Mag C/D smart incan drivers with the same UI. These switches will easily handle 75W of power. I am running one of them with a 5761 / two IMR18650s and the other with C3 / 1185 / three IMR16340s both with good results. I 'll have to say I love both setups regarding size / output / runtime on lower levels.


This is great news, AW! Do you have an idea of a release date for these yet?


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## AW (Nov 17, 2008)

In about two weeks. Then I 'll work on a version for the SF M6 which will work for the stock MN 20/21 with primaries or any rechargables / lamp combinations.


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## lebox97 (Nov 18, 2008)

you are the man!
:twothumbs



AW said:


> In about two weeks. Then I 'll work on a version for the SF M6 which will work for the stock MN 20/21 with primaries or any rechargables / lamp combinations.


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## Kestrel (Nov 18, 2008)

AW said:


> Z41 twisties





AW said:


> In about two weeks.


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## Evil Twin (Nov 18, 2008)

AW said:


> In about two weeks. Then I 'll work on a version for the SF M6 which will work for the stock MN 20/21 with primaries or any rechargables / lamp combinations.



Looks like AW's going to be taking all my Christmas money this year! :laughing:


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## djans1397 (Nov 19, 2008)

AW said:


> In about two weeks. Then I 'll work on a version for the SF M6 which will work for the stock MN 20/21 with primaries or any rechargables / lamp combinations.


 

SWEET! :twothumbs


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## Justin Case (Dec 15, 2008)

mdocod said:


> Yes, a pair of these should power a N62, not sure if it will be as bright as it is normally, I think for maximum output from a pair of these cells, a 64250 or WA1111 should be used instead of an N62 for various reasons. Mostly the fact that the N62 is rare, might be better to save as a sort of keepsake.


 
I've successfully (in *very limited* testing) used two AW 17670 protected Li-ion cells (not his new IMR cells) in a 12ZM (with SRTH). As I understand it, the protection circuit for these cells is rated up to 5A (not sure what the cells themselves can sustain; AW's non-IMR protected 16340 cells are advertised up to 2C load).

I've run the 12ZM for about a max of 15 sec continuous as well as for multiple ~1/2 sec bursts. My light meter measured essentially the same hot spot intensity -- about 14,000 lux at 1 meter for the N62 when driven either by 4xDuracell123A or 2xAW17670. I measured 3.67A (held steady over a few seconds of measurement) at the tailcap when using the AW17670 cells. For 4xDuracell123A, the draw started at 3.7A and slowly decreased to 3.6A over a few seconds of measurement.


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## willrx (Dec 15, 2008)

Thank you for the information. I've been using my 12ZM sparingly, searching for a rechargeable option for the battery thirsty N62 also.


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## mdocod (Dec 16, 2008)

Justin Case said:


> I've successfully (in *very limited* testing) used two AW 17670 protected Li-ion cells (not his new IMR cells) in a 12ZM (with SRTH). As I understand it, the protection circuit for these cells is rated up to 5A (not sure what the cells themselves can sustain; AW's non-IMR protected 16340 cells are advertised up to 2C load).
> 
> I've run the 12ZM for about a max of 15 sec continuous as well as for multiple ~1/2 sec bursts. My light meter measured essentially the same hot spot intensity -- about 14,000 lux at 1 meter for the N62 when driven either by 4xDuracell123A or 2xAW17670. I measured 3.67A (held steady over a few seconds of measurement) at the tailcap when using the AW17670 cells. For 4xDuracell123A, the draw started at 3.7A and slowly decreased to 3.6A over a few seconds of measurement.



Keep in mind, that the maximum recommended discharge rate for the LiCo 17670s is also 2C, which equates to around 3A. A pair of 18650s would be more suitable for the load in question. Not sure if you would run into bulb life problems on the larger cells or not though. Obviously it would require an after-market or bored body.


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## cenz (Dec 16, 2008)

Justin Case said:


> I've successfully (in *very limited* testing) used two AW 17670 protected Li-ion cells (not his new IMR cells) in a 12ZM (with SRTH). As I understand it, the protection circuit for these cells is rated up to 5A (not sure what the cells themselves can sustain; AW's non-IMR protected 16340 cells are advertised up to 2C load).
> 
> I've run the 12ZM for about a max of 15 sec continuous as well as for multiple ~1/2 sec bursts. My light meter measured essentially the same hot spot intensity -- about 14,000 lux at 1 meter for the N62 when driven either by 4xDuracell123A or 2xAW17670. I measured 3.67A (held steady over a few seconds of measurement) at the tailcap when using the AW17670 cells. For 4xDuracell123A, the draw started at 3.7A and slowly decreased to 3.6A over a few seconds of measurement.



hi Justin Case,

I'd like to ask you How to measure the Amp at the tailcap? 
here is my measuring amp method below:





Is it a correct way or not?
---------------------------------

I'v tried N62 (w/ 2x UF18650 unprotected)which draw 3.2~3.5A by above measurement method, why did I get a lower rate with N62? is it a multi-bodies (resistant?)factor? or battery quality? 3.67A is rated with a fully charged of 2 18650?

I use Pila to charge AW18650 & IMR18650, the charger cut-off at 4.15~4.18v range, also the multimeter rated 3.2A~3.5A yet.... may be a resistant problem...?


Thanks.


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## mdocod (Dec 16, 2008)

cenz said:


> hi Justin Case,
> 
> I'd like to ask you How to measure the Amp at the tailcap?
> here is my measuring amp method below:
> ...



The multi-meter may be adding some resistance, or may simply not be accurately reading the current. and UF cells are questionable at best.


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## Justin Case (Dec 16, 2008)

mdocod said:


> Keep in mind, that the maximum recommended discharge rate for the LiCo 17670s is also 2C, which equates to around 3A. A pair of 18650s would be more suitable for the load in question. Not sure if you would run into bulb life problems on the larger cells or not though. Obviously it would require an after-market or bored body.


 
Yes, I asked AW about that and he confirmed that his protected 17670 cells are rated to 2C. It looks like a borderline case. AW advertises his protected 17670 as working with WA1185 and WA1111, which draw about 3.15A and 3.35A, respectively according to the Welch Allyn web site. And the N62 has been claimed to draw 3.35A using 2x18650: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/114094&pp=30&page=2

Of course I would prefer 18650s, but they don't fit in a 12ZM body. I am certainly not going to bore out my 12ZM. If I use a FiveMega body, then it wouldn't be a 12ZM anymore. I have the patience to wait for IMR17670s to hit the street. I suppose I could try two IMR16340 cells and two dummy cells. In the meantime, I'm using AW's TurboHead LED tower kit with a Seoul P4 U2 bin.


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## Justin Case (Dec 16, 2008)

cenz said:


> hi Justin Case,
> 
> I'd like to ask you How to measure the Amp at the tailcap?
> here is my measuring amp method below:
> ...


 
Well, it doesn't look like you are using the N62 in a 12ZM body, which can change the overall resistance in the circuit path. What flashlight is shown in your photo?

Another possibility is that the discharge mode is constant power. Thus, as battery voltage sags further, discharge current increases. I would assume that the voltage sag for 17670 cells is greater than that for 18650s.


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 16, 2008)

Justin Case said:


> Well, it doesn't look like you are using the N62 in a 12ZM body, which can change the overall resistance in the circuit path. What flashlight is shown in your photo?
> 
> Another possibility is that the discharge mode is constant power. Thus, as battery voltage sags further, discharge current increases. I would assume that the voltage sag for 17670 cells is greater than that for 18650s.



Do we have a comparision of amp draw from batteries between four CR123's and two 19650's? I know the N62 is supposed to be running about 7.75 volts or so, but we are using only two Li-Ions, and there has got to be some voltage sag at 3+ amp draw with two cells measuring only 8.3 or so. Also, no constant power with incan, unless you are running a constant voltage driver, so amp draw from batteries goes down as voltage goes down.

Bill


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## Justin Case (Dec 16, 2008)

Past CPF posts have claimed 3.7A for 2x123A primaries and 3.35A for 2x18650.

Why not constant power (at least initially, which is when these tailcap measurements are made anyway)? Incandescents are purely resistive loads and early on I would think that the batteries can deliver the current that is required even as voltage sags. And with Li-ions, discharge characteristics are typically fairly flat initially, so the cells may sag to a semi-constant voltage (just a different level depending on cell size).


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 16, 2008)

Justin Case said:


> Past CPF posts have claimed 3.7A for 2x123A primaries and 3.35A for 2x18650.
> 
> Why not constant power (at least initially, which is when these tailcap measurements are made anyway)? Incandescents are purely resistive loads and early on I would think that the batteries can deliver the current that is required even as voltage sags. And with Li-ions, discharge characteristics are typically fairly flat initially, so the cells may sag to a semi-constant voltage (just a different level depending on cell size).



The N62 is a so called 12 volt LA once used in the SF 12PM. I know that it runs at lower voltage than 12 volts, but 4 CR123's were used allowing for battery sag under load due to high amp draw of the N62 LA. It would not work with two CR123 primaries. It happens to work with two highcap, hi current Li-ions. It is interesting that it does work with two Li-Ions, and would be a great bulb to be re-introduced in SF line. Never happen.

Bill


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## Justin Case (Dec 16, 2008)

That was a typo. I meant to say 3.7A draw when driven by 4x123A primaries. Of course, it isn't 2x123A. The 12ZM is a four-cell light.


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## cenz (Dec 18, 2008)

Justin Case said:


> What flashlight is shown in your photo?



The light is cheap-hybrid (solarforcx+UF)body, I have 12PM body but I never bore it...


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## Yoda4561 (Dec 22, 2008)

I did a runtime test with them on my m60wlf, supposed to draw around 350ma at 6v(I forgot to measure with the IMR's,  ). A minute off the charger and they measured 4.17 at the start of the test. After 1 hour they measured 3.68, at 1:15 the cells measured 3.6v on the dot, and at 1:30 they were at 3.51v. Now I measured these right after I got the tailcap off, and stopped the test here since I figured this was a good stopping point(the light was still running in full regulation), I've heard that lithium ion cells "rebound" up to 3.6 after being fully discharged. 20 minutes after the test stopped they were still at 3.51v. Is that normal or should i have stopped when they measured 3.6 out of the light?


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## Hammer Train (Mar 28, 2009)

Just how safe are the imr cells? I currently use lifepo4's & imr's and no longer use protected lithiums as I had one with a crushed circuit board that went a little crazy on me! - are the imr's safer than po4? What's the worst that could happen with lifepo4's or imr's?


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 28, 2009)

Yoda4561 said:


> I did a runtime test with them on my m60wlf, supposed to draw around 350ma at 6v(I forgot to measure with the IMR's,  ). A minute off the charger and they measured 4.17 at the start of the test. After 1 hour they measured 3.68, at 1:15 the cells measured 3.6v on the dot, and at 1:30 they were at 3.51v. Now I measured these right after I got the tailcap off, and stopped the test here since I figured this was a good stopping point(the light was still running in full regulation), I've heard that lithium ion cells "rebound" up to 3.6 after being fully discharged. 20 minutes after the test stopped they were still at 3.51v. Is that normal or should i have stopped when they measured 3.6 out of the light?



They are ok, and will rebound in the charger. Ideally do not leave LiIon cells resting below 3.6 volts, but put them on the charger asap. Don't have to do a full charge if you are not going to use them for awhile, but charge them till they are well above 3.6 volts, say 3.8 volts.

Bill


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## Hammer Train (Mar 28, 2009)

peterthomson said:


> Just how safe are the imr cells? I currently use lifepo4's & imr's and no longer use protected lithiums as I had one with a crushed circuit board that went a little crazy on me! - are the imr's safer than po4? What's the worst that could happen with lifepo4's or imr's?


anyone?


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 28, 2009)

peterthomson said:


> anyone?



Do some searching on CPF. Look at the stickies in the electronic, batteries included forum. Lots of info there. Don't just wait for others to respond. It is important info that you need to know before you seriously venture into LiIon's.

Bill


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## Hammer Train (Mar 28, 2009)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Do some searching on CPF. Look at the stickies in the electronic, batteries included forum. Lots of info there. Don't just wait for others to respond. It is important info that you need to know before you seriously venture into LiIon's.
> 
> Bill



I have been looking. lots. However I cannot find out if IMR cells vent with flames or explode. I know that lifepo4 don't. If the info is that easy to find could someone post the answer as I've been looking for hours before posting!


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## Yoda4561 (Mar 28, 2009)

They aren't supposed to, I think there may have been a destructive test or two where they just leak and vent a bit of gas, if the chemistry works the way it's supposed to it should be impossible for them to vent with flame.


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 28, 2009)

peterthomson said:


> I have been looking. lots. However I cannot find out if IMR cells vent with flames or explode. I know that lifepo4 don't. If the info is that easy to find could someone post the answer as I've been looking for hours before posting!



I just did a google cpf only at the top of each page using this: AW IMR venting and got this:

http://www.google.com/search?q=AW+IMR+venting&sitesearch=candlepowerforums.com

Check it out. 

Bill


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## Hammer Train (Mar 29, 2009)

Thanks for the info guys!


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