# L1P High CRI(93) Seoul P4



## TexLite (Jul 9, 2008)

I have been noticing the tint more and more on my LED lights lately,and had tried a number of different tint bins from different manufacturers,in an attempt to find something neutral,but with decent color rendition.Then when McGizmo started the High CRI and Sundrop threads it clinched the deal.I've missed a couple of group buys(work) for the Nichia's Mcgizmo has so I ordered some of the High CRI Seoul emitters and have put them in a number of hosts to try out,one is a Fenix L1P modded with the RV7 3 level driver and High CRI LED.I wanted to share my initial impressions.

First,the tint I got were a little warmer than I had originally wanted,Natural White SRO,but the color rendition is awesome.The tint seems to be a higher than a standard 75w incandescent,but still a little warm.It is hard to describe how much of a difference there is between these and the lower CRI emitters.Reds and skin tones are the most apparent difference,with green close behind.There is no tint shift at all when switching from a conventional light source to these LED's.

The output is lower than the latest flux bins in pure white,60-70 lumens at 350ma for the bin I got(S2),still decent though.

I am very pleased with the outcome,though I would prefer a higher color temp,STO would be great.

Be advised,it becomes harder to accept the lower CRI of other emitters the longer you use these,though output does trump CRI at times.As McGizmo says,sometimes it is better to see something well than barely or not at all with high CRI.

Mandatory beamshots...though these don't quite relate to what I am seeing.Exposure adjusted on some to compensate brightness.

L1P w/ High CRI P4






Control 75w Incandescent





High CRI Seoul/L1P





Cree R2 WG





Lux-V VO





SWO Seoul P4





SRO vs WG





SRO vs Rebel





SRO vs WG





SRO vs Rebel





High CRI Seoul Mag





Cree R2 WG





Rebel (unknown bin)





High CRI Seoul Mag





Cree R2 WG





Rebel (unknown bin)





Rebel vs SRO





SRO vs WG






The Seoul can be driven to 800ma for reasonable output,and should work with existing Optics and Reflectors.

Thanks,
Michael


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## ICUDoc (Jul 9, 2008)

Thanks for the beamshots Michael. I wonder if you can show side-by-side shots of the high-vs-standard CRI LEDs? Also where did you get the high CRI Seouls- it will be interesting to try a few of them... Thanks again for an interesting and alternative view of high CRI LEDs.


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## holeymoley (Jul 9, 2008)

You don't have a side-by-side shot with a rebel by any chance?

Also, +1 on the link to purchase one of these...I have a project this moght be right for.


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## StarHalo (Jul 9, 2008)

Wow, some great results there, and good photography too, getting color rendition comparison photos is quite a chore.

I look forward to a comparison between these High CRI emitters, it'll be interesting to see who does true color best.

You might consider building a number of these for sale; I know I'd definitely be interested in a modest-cost High CRI unit, as would pretty much everyone who knows about the SunDrop but can't afford one..


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## TexLite (Jul 9, 2008)

ICUDoc said:


> I wonder if you can show side-by-side shots of the high-vs-standard CRI LEDs?


 
Sure,I'll try tonight.What did you have in mind?The reason I ask is the stuff I've taken shots with would make it difficult to do a side by side,I would have to set up two of everything,and the flowers aren't consistent.Unless you meant whitewall.I'm willing to try whatever though,I might have something with colors that would be wide enough to do a side by side,which emitters?



ICUDoc said:


> Also where did you get the high CRI Seouls- it will be interesting to try a few of them...


 
I can get you some and forward them to try to save you some shipping,or you can order them from Mouser.Search for S42180,make sure they're S2,they have S1 in stock as well.



holeymoley said:


> You don't have a side-by-side shot with a rebel by any chance?


 
I'll work on that tonight.



holeymoley said:


> Also, +1 on the link to purchase one of these...I have a project this moght be right for.


 
Mouser has them,search S42180,make sure they're S2.



StarHalo said:


> Wow, some great results there, and good photography too, getting color rendition comparison photos is quite a chhore.
> 
> You might consider building a number of these for sale; I know I'd definitely be interested in a modest-cost High CRI unit, as would pretty much everyone who knows about the SunDrop but can't afford one..


 
Thanks,yes it is difficult to capture exactly what my eyes see.

I was planning on building some of these for sale,but I was unsure about demand.

Thanks,
Michael


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## TexLite (Jul 9, 2008)

Consolidated posts,see above.


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## ICUDoc (Jul 10, 2008)

Great thanks for the responses. I imagined a shot that illuminated two parts of the same object with light from two different LEDs, so as to eliminate any chance of different white balance or exposure causing a subtle change. Or one photo of two identical groups of objects lit by two different LEDs. But what you have told and shown us so far is great, thanks.


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## 2xTrinity (Jul 10, 2008)

Do you have any comparisons between this and a Q2 5A Cree chip, which is also neutral white (4000-4300k), and in my experience renders scenery similar to your High CRI Seoul. I'd like to know these emitters compare, and since the color temps appear to be about the same, such a comparison would be a true CRI comparison. When comparing sources with two different color temps CRI doesn't really apply.

For exmaple, check out this image here from Dereelight: WC vs 5A tint
from this page: http://www.dereelight.com/module-list.htm

by the way, This is where I've been getting my Neutral white chips, and is the only place I know of to buy these emitters for cheap at the moment. I've been buying those modules, then extracting the drivers and LEDs to use for other projects.

Where did you get the Seoul emitters? In the near future I plan to replace all my LEDs in all my lights with neutral chips, and as of now I only have been able to get those Crees in neutral white. Future projects of mine will primarily be using Neutral white MC-Es.


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## TexLite (Jul 10, 2008)

2xTrinity said:


> Do you have any comparisons between this and a Q2 5A Cree chip, which is also neutral white (4000-4300k), and in my experience renders scenery similar to your High CRI Seoul. I'd like to know these emitters compare, and since the color temps appear to be about the same, such a comparison would be a true CRI comparison. When comparing sources with two different color temps CRI doesn't really apply.
> 
> by the way, This is where I've been getting my Neutral white chips, and is the only place I know of to buy these emitters for cheap at the moment. I've been buying those modules, then extracting the drivers and LEDs to use for other projects.


 
As I understand it,a warmer tint may look better,but still dosen't necessarily mean a higher CRI.
Cree for instance list the CRI of their Warm White (2600k-3700k) as 80.
And the Cool and Neutral White (3700k-10,000k) as 75.
Thats from the XR-E Datasheet.
These SRO Seouls's are listed as 93.
LukeA said Cree quotes that some of their new household lighting will have CRI's in the 90's,I'm waiting on further info,it sounds interesting. 

I dont have any of the Neutral White XR-E's yet,but do planning on getting some in the future,as they are now available in Q3 flux bin.The Q2's are also available as bare emitters from a couple of different sources,both overseas and domestic.The 4000k-4500k is actually the range I wanted,but If you look at the datasheet,the SRO is lower,around 3700k.I would still be in the same boat as far as comparing different temps with the 5A Cree's.I understand that comparing the CRI of different temps isnt exactly accurate,but it does illustrate what one sees in realworld usage.

Still,I am eager to test these against some of the Neutral XR-E's,I think output will be about the same,the max current for temps below 5000k is 700ma,which is around 1.7 times flux at 350ma.



2xTrinity said:


> Where did you get the Seoul emitters? In the near future I plan to replace all my LEDs in all my lights with neutral chips, and as of now I only have been able to get those Crees in neutral white. Future projects of mine will primarily be using Neutral white MC-Es.


 
Mouser has them here,http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=tAn5ob3kyLKvEp6t%2bc8PfQ== 
These are SRO's,I'm still looking for a higher color temp.

Side by Side and Rebel beamshots added to the mix.

Thanks,
Michael


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## ICUDoc (Jul 10, 2008)

Thanks for the side-by-sides. The SRO does give a more realistic, organic look especially to the reds, oranges and browns...


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## 2xTrinity (Jul 10, 2008)

TexLite said:


> As I understand it,a warmer tint may look better,but still dosen't necessarily mean a higher CRI.
> Cree for instance list the CRI of their Warm White (2600k-3700k) as 80.
> And the Cool and Neutral White (3700k-10,000k) as 75.
> Thats from the XR-E Datasheet.
> ...


Understood. My reason for wanting to see a comaprison is to see what the difference between 75CRI Neutral White and 93 CRI Neutral white is in real-life, with CRI being the only variable different between them. 

As far as the warmer LEDs looking better, that's an intersting phenomenon. In my experience I've found lights to be more pleasing as they approach 4000k. It's just that the lights right AT 4000k up to this point have always been bad (eg "cool white" fluorescent), so I've settled on either 5000k or 3500k for home lighting. The prospect of both High CRI and what I believe is an optimal color temperature is very interesting.

I know for example that for exmple people have been willing to pay a premium to buy neodymimum-doped incans, which are only 75 CRI and less efficient than 100 CRI unfiltered incans, due to better subjective appearance. There is talk of coming up with a "Light Quality Index" to replace the CRI that is based more on psychological research on people's preferences, than simply the RMS difference between a light source and the blackbody line.



> I dont have any of the Neutral White XR-E's yet,but do planning on getting some in the future,as they are now available in Q3 flux bin.


If you're referring to the ones at Cutter, IIRC those are 4A Bin, so they're actually 5200k and overlap with the WH bin of the Cool Whites, though with a balanced white point, where the WH's are greenish.



> The Q2's are also available as bare emitters from a couple of different sources,both overseas and domestic.The 4000k-4500k is actually the range I wanted,but If you look at the datasheet,the SRO is lower,around 3700k.I would still be in the same boat as far as comparing different temps with the 5A Cree's.I understand that comparing the CRI of different temps isnt exactly accurate,but it does illustrate what one sees in realworld usage.


I didn't realize those were only 3700k. If that's the case, It might be interesting to see a comparison with a highly overdriven incan, which can reach 3700k (just before instaflash) with a CRI 100. Differences should be almost impossible to distinguish, assuming you have the same beam profile.

By the way thanks for the reply and doing the beamshots. This is a very intersting subject, needless to say.


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## saabluster (Jul 11, 2008)

2xTrinity said:


> If you're referring to the ones at Cutter, IIRC those are 4A Bin, so they're actually 5200k and overlap with the WH bin of the Cool Whites, though with a balanced white point, where the WH's are greenish.


Not a big deal but those are actually 3A Q3s at Cutter.


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## 2xTrinity (Jul 11, 2008)

saabluster said:


> Not a big deal but those are actually 3A Q3s at Cutter.


I was wrong on the number, but correct about the CCT, see the binning datasheet: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=r...NU78uahGJPjAL1Zaw&sig2=gCLNKF9YfORI74-UTCsWcA


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## TexLite (Jul 11, 2008)

2xTrinity said:


> Understood. My reason for wanting to see a comaprison is to see what the difference between 75CRI Neutral White and 93 CRI Neutral white is in real-life, with CRI being the only variable different between them.


 
Gotcha,that would indeed be interesting.Maybe we can work something out.



2xTrinity said:


> As far as the warmer LEDs looking better, that's an intersting phenomenon. In my experience I've found lights to be more pleasing as they approach 4000k. It's just that the lights right AT 4000k up to this point have always been bad (eg "cool white" fluorescent), so I've settled on either 5000k or 3500k for home lighting. The prospect of both High CRI and what I believe is an optimal color temperature is very interesting.


 
Thats interesting,my experience with the warm Cree's is limited,but these seem too warm to me,thats the reason I was looking for a higher temp.What do you think about the 5A's?I was thinking about getting some of those to try.




2xTrinity said:


> If you're referring to the ones at Cutter, IIRC those are 4A Bin, so they're actually 5200k and overlap with the WH bin of the Cool Whites, though with a balanced white point, where the WH's are greenish.


 
I was,and I had missed that.



2xTrinity said:


> I didn't realize those were only 3700k. If that's the case, It might be interesting to see a comparison with a highly overdriven incan, which can reach 3700k (just before instaflash) with a CRI 100. Differences should be almost impossible to distinguish, assuming you have the same beam profile.


 
What did you have in mind,I'm open to suggestions.



2xTrinity said:


> By the way thanks for the reply and doing the beamshots. This is a very intersting subject, needless to say.


 


ICUDoc said:


> Thanks for the side-by-sides. The SRO does give a more realistic, organic look especially to the reds, oranges and browns...


 
Thanks to you guys as well, I appreciate the input.We all benefit from this type of discourse.

Thanks,
Michael


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## StarHalo (Jul 11, 2008)

TexLite said:


> I was planning on building some of these for sale,but I was unsure about demand.



Are you kidding?! You wouldn't be able to keep up.. Anyone who has ever admired the SunDrop and already owns a few flashlights would be your prime demographic, which is, oh, roughly most of CPF... It'll come down to how much time you have and how much money you're willing to make :huh:

I'd be in for ~$80 for a ~5000K 100CRI unit, max lumens isn't a concern so long as you keep the three level driver.


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## TexLite (Jul 11, 2008)

StarHalo said:


> Are you kidding?! You wouldn't be able to keep up.. Anyone who has ever admired the SunDrop and already owns a few flashlights would be your prime demographic, which is, oh, roughly most of CPF... It'll come down to how much time you have and how much money you're willing to make :huh:
> 
> I'd be in for ~$80 for a ~5000K 100CRI unit, max lumens isn't a concern so long as you keep the three level driver.


 
The catch with building a lot of these is the driver,this version of the RV7 is out of production.The same design is available from some other sources,but its the 20 mode version and 17mm.The second run RV7's were 16mm,which fit the L1P,and I want to hang on to the 3 level stock I have at the moment.

The second hurdle would be finding these emitters in a higher color temp,I'm working on that though...

If I do build a couple,I'll let you know.

Thanks,
Michael


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## waTom (Jul 15, 2008)

This is awesome!
I'd be in for 1 high CRI L1P!


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## discoverEDC (Aug 22, 2008)

TexLite, the high CRI seoul appears to like the L1P's reflector, did you file the back down 0.5 mm per the usual for SSC's or is it still original? What other reflectors have you used with them and what kind of results have you had?

I also have a 3 level RV7 driver, can you estimate the number of lumens coming out the front end?

Thanks.

Walt


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## TexLite (Aug 22, 2008)

Hi Walt,

Yes,the emitter works very well with the stock smooth reflector.Its a nice large smooth hotspot,and blends the tint well.Its not a thrower,but for this type of light it works well.

I did cut it down,but I dont know if I'll do it again on a few more I plan on doing.The reason is you end up cutting the lip off the rear of the reflector,that means the pill ends up compressing the emitter,probably not a big deal as long as you dont over-torque it.Also,if you cut off too much,you run into contact issues.

I've tried these emitters with several different reflectors,and the L1P is the best so far.

An OP Mag does OK.I've got one with boost driver running about 800ma and its a good versatile light.

The MiniMag LED makes a good host,but you can see a lot of tint variance with a smooth reflector.Sputtering would probably greatly improve it.I put some diffuser material under the lens to make it totally flood.Makes a great inspection light,especially in electrical panels and such.I wouldn't recommend it without sputtering the reflector or using a diffuser.

With some tweaking,it will probably work with the LxT v2.0 with the Rebel reflectors,output on a single cell is just a little over 300ma,on a two cell between 700ma-800ma if memory serves me correctly.It would make a good two-level host,I can try one if anyone needs the info.

As far as output,according to the chart below,if we assume around 600ma,the datasheet says ~1.6 times flux at that current x 65 lumens avg would be 104 emitter lumens,15%-20% optical losses would put it around 80-85 lumens out the front for most of the run on max.






Hope that helps,

-Michael


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## discoverEDC (Aug 23, 2008)

Have you tried a McR-20S or a McR-18S?


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## TexLite (Aug 24, 2008)

I haven't with this LED.Though I'd imagine it would be a pretty much perfect beam,same as the other P4's.

I was going to put a McR18s in,but in the high CRI Mag I have,when you tighten the beam up,you get a really bright,blinding hotspot,which is almost counter productive to this type of light.I like the smooth hotspot with the standard reflector,because it makes the most use of the this Seouls strong suit,CRI.For me,the main reason for using this LED in certain applications is the high CRI,which suggest use at semi close range,something the stock reflector lends itself well to. 

For high output,I would use the McR's with the higher flux bins,where high flux is their strong suit,and also where these LED's are weak.To me,its about capitalizing on each LED's most desired trait.

I'm planning on building an L1P with an RV7 and U2SWOH,it will without a doubt get the McR18s,because in that setup I would want max brightness with a tighter beam with more throw,and that combo will work Great.

In short,I'm sure it will produce a fantastic beam,I'm just not sure how that beam will work close-up.

Thanks,
Michael


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## discoverEDC (Aug 24, 2008)

I appreciate your thoughts. I can't do a build for a couple of months but when I take a shot at it I'll keep you experience in mind. I'm thinking about overdriving the emiter you used with about 900-950 mA and a MOP reflector. Hopefully with the result of about 100 Lum out the front with middling throw and a broad hotspot and bright spillbeam(that would be the maximum on a multi-level driver). We'll see how it turns out. I'll post to this thread when I have some results.

Walt


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## tebore (Aug 24, 2008)

I reread your thread today and it really inspired me to give these seouls a try. 

I have a few spare U2 bin P4s. If you guys are willing to trade for them I'd be happy to work something out. I'd love to stuff one of these high CRIs in another classic light; the HDS EDC. 

Shoot me a PM if you need a few U2 Bin P4s and have some extra high CRI P4s.


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## TexLite (Aug 25, 2008)

discoverEDC said:


> I appreciate your thoughts. I can't do a build for a couple of months but when I take a shot at it I'll keep you experience in mind. I'm thinking about overdriving the emiter you used with about 900-950 mA and a MOP reflector. Hopefully with the result of about 100 Lum out the front with middling throw and a broad hotspot and bright spillbeam(that would be the maximum on a multi-level driver). We'll see how it turns out. I'll post to this thread when I have some results.
> 
> Walt


 
Your welcome,that sounds like a nice versatile light.



tebore said:


> I reread your thread today and it really inspired me to give these seouls a try.
> 
> I have a few spare U2 bin P4s. If you guys are willing to trade for them I'd be happy to work something out. I'd love to stuff one of these high CRIs in another classic light; the HDS EDC.
> 
> Shoot me a PM if you need a few U2 Bin P4s and have some extra high CRI P4s.


 
Hi tebore,sending you a PM.


-Michael


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## SafetyBob (Aug 25, 2008)

Michael, I have also found those warm white Seoul's at Mouser. They do make for a very nice "inside" light. I don't believe anyone realizes that I replaced a flourescent tube uplight with warm white P4s (they might have been P2s, can't remember now). The 3000K temp is really nice bouncing off a ceiling. 

Very nice beamshots showing the difference. Truly is amazing the difference. 

Bob E.


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## gunga (Aug 25, 2008)

Where is the best place to get some of these high CRI seouls? I may need to try a few...

:naughty:


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## KrisP (Aug 26, 2008)

gunga said:


> Where is the best place to get some of these high CRI seouls? I may need to try a few...
> 
> :naughty:





TexLite said:


> I can get you some and forward them to try to save you some shipping,or you can order them from Mouser.Search for S42180,make sure they're S2,they have S1 in stock as well.


http://www.mouser.com/


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## R33E8 (Aug 26, 2008)

KrisP said:


> http://www.mouser.com/



The ones mounted on stars are S42182


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## discoverEDC (Sep 1, 2008)

TexLite,
Can you tell me how you modded a minimag reflector to work with the high CRI Seoul? Did you open up the bulb end of the reflector enough for the dome or the whole body? Also, have you ever tried an optic?

OK, I ordered my parts so I'll spill the design beans on my planned build. I ordered version 1 of the L-Mini by shiningbeam
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=177921
which I plan on using as the host for the high CRI Seoul.
Recap of the L-mini if you haven't run into mention of it: Fenix P3D size, runs on protected 17670 or unprotected 18650 with typical 5 modes. The low is lower than typical. The driver is supposed to push 1.1A to the emitter and has an adjustment pot on it to adjust the emitter output range from 900mA to 1.2A. I will test the drive current at the emitter when I do my build, with driver losses I would expect to see an actual 950 - 1000 mA at the emitter which is what I'm looking for. But if it's off I can adjust it  The trick will be photon management hence my questions to you. I will try the (cree) OP reflector that I ordered with the light just to see what it does.

Unfortunately family issues will keep me from building the light soon, possibly until after Thanksgiving. With any luck someone will borrow my idea and I can find out ahead of time if it will work and what photon management is the best type. Thanks again for your answers to my questions.

Walt


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## TexLite (Sep 1, 2008)

Hi Walt,

If your asking about the MiniMag I had for sale,It was the LED version.I didnt change anything but the emitter,the Seoul P4's are nearly a direct replacement of the Lux's that come in the light,and the high CRI version has the same package as the other P4's.

I haven't tried these with an optic,but my guess is they will perform poorly.The beam pattern should be ok,but tint variations might be visible. 

I cant comment on the L-Mini,as I haven't seen them up till now.It looks to be a good host for the money,li-ion compatible,multi-mode,etc.

The catch will be the reflector,they're probably not going to work well with the Seouls.The Cree XR-E that comes in the light has a totally different viewing angle,and the reflector will be optimized for that emitter.

If they're similar in size to other lights of that style(Fenix,Jetbeam,etc.) then a McGizmo McR18 or a stippled 17mm Khatod,KCLP17ST,would be your best bet.

These are guesses on my part as I havent tried either with this emitter,they work great with the standard cooler P4's,and the beam shape will most likely work well,the unknown variable will be the tint.And as I stated before,I'm not familiar with that light,so I cant say if they're even moddable.

I'll try one out with an optic and let you know.

-Michael


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## TexLite (Sep 1, 2008)

Bob E.,

I missed you post the first go round.

Thanks for the compliment,its appreciated.

If the part number you got from Mouser was S42180 or S42182,then most likely they're S1 or S2 bin.

Thanks,
Michael


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## discoverEDC (Sep 2, 2008)

Michael,

I've decided I'm going to order the stippled Khatod reflector. Taking no chances with funny colors getting into the beam pattern. The stippled Khatod will absolutely kill throw, oh well, as you said, the value of this generation of high CRI emitters is close lighting and not throw. I'll be EDCing more than just this light so I will have throw options on/with me. I've appreciated you sharing your experience, it's helped me organize my thoughts about this build.

Walt



TexLite said:


> Hi Walt,
> 
> If your asking about the MiniMag I had for sale,It was the LED version.I didnt change anything but the emitter,the Seoul P4's are nearly a direct replacement of the Lux's that come in the light,and the high CRI version has the same package as the other P4's.
> 
> ...


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## TexLite (Sep 3, 2008)

Your more than welcome Walt,glad to share.

Let us know how the Khatod works out.

-Michael


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## discoverEDC (Sep 9, 2008)

Michael,
I had an unexpected opportunity to do my build  Actually I modded two lights with the high CRI Seoul's :twothumbs

First off, do not use the stippled Khatod unless all you want is flood with a very faint hot spot, no throw at all :sick2:
I ended up using a cut down smooth 20mm Khatod (meant for Seoul's). In the end the cut down 20mm was probably about the same as a smooth 17mm Khatod. This fit the L-mini host well. 

The hot spot ended up slightly larger that that of my Ra Twisty 100w, with a nice wide spill beam. I estimate the ouput to be slightly above the Twisty's 100 lumens. I'm used to the standard Seoul's color so juding the high CRI's output was not a quick process.

I also put a high CRI into my Novatac 120P. This is a fantastic matchup if you are willing to void your warranty  The beam is Novatac smooth with all of the programmable features. The surprising part is that the output appears to roughly match my Ra Twisty. I was planning on selling the 120P at some point but not now!

I am EDCing both lights now. I'm slowly getting used to the incanish beam so I can see why you would like 5000k better. That said, the color rendition is absolutely amazing. Reds, purples, browns just pop out. The difference in how woodgrain/color is rendered has to be seen first hand.

I've built my own lightmeter but I haven't gotten around to calibrating/correlating the readings I get from it. When I get that squared away I hope to have some lux readings and estimated light box lumen readings for my two high CRI lights.

This thread and the link to Mouser is what got me going, thanks :twothumbs

Walt


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## copperfox (Sep 10, 2008)

discoverEDC said:


> Michael,
> I also put a high CRI into my Novatac 120P. This is a fantastic matchup if you are willing to void your warranty  The beam is Novatac smooth with all of the programmable features. The surprising part is that the output appears to roughly match my Ra Twisty. I was planning on selling the 120P at some point but not now!



Walt, tell me more! This exact thing crossed my mind, but I am hesitant. I've swapped emitters before, is modding the Novatac just as easy? Does it get less-bright after the mod? It's better with color rendering, but not as yellow as an incandescent, correct?


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## milkyspit (Sep 10, 2008)

copperfox said:


> Walt, tell me more! This exact thing crossed my mind, but I am hesitant. I've swapped emitters before, is modding the Novatac just as easy? Does it get less-bright after the mod? It's better with color rendering, but not as yellow as an incandescent, correct?




I've been playing with these high CRI emitters a bit here in the Milky Labs. The lumens will be around 60-70% of what the usual SSCP4 emitter generates.


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## TexLite (Sep 10, 2008)

Thanks Walt for the info.I'm glad it turned out so well for you.:thumbsup:

The Novatac looks like a good match,and being able to program the levels will be very useful.

It really is hard to appreciate the difference until you experience it first hand.

copperfox,I'll let Walt speak about the mod process on the 120P,but I can tell you you will lose output with this SSC.The color is whiter than an incan,one thats not really overdriven,but I would still prefer something a little higher. 

-Michael


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## TexLite (Sep 10, 2008)

Hi Milky,have you had any trouble blending the tints?

I've noticed some reflectors work well this LED while others are poor performers when it comes to tint variation.

I'm starting to think it has something to do with the new process Seoul implemented that has affected the P4's and the P7's,and not this particular emitter only,just more pronounced here.

-Michael


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## milkyspit (Sep 10, 2008)

TexLite said:


> Hi Milky,have you had any trouble blending the tints?
> 
> I've noticed some reflectors work well this LED while others are poor performers when it comes to tint variation.
> 
> ...




Michael, so far I've had no problems. IMHO some reflectors refract the light a little like a prism would, and ever so slightly separate out certain colors at certain positions in the beam pattern.


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## tebore (Sep 10, 2008)

TexLite said:


> Hi Milky,have you had any trouble blending the tints?
> 
> I've noticed some reflectors work well this LED while others are poor performers when it comes to tint variation.
> 
> ...



You seem to be on to something. 

All U2 bins I've been playing with seems to display a halo effect while the U1 and older U-bins rarely ever show it and when it happens it's less pronounced. I look forward to receiving the emitters you sent out. 

Lets hope it is a new process and will help move them in to the V and W bin area for the cool or T and U bin in the warm/neutral P4. Hopefully the new bins will also have this halo corona fixed.


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## gunga (Sep 10, 2008)

Keep up the info guys. I have a Novatac I've been thinking of using as a host for these emitters. You lose some max output, but it might be okay due to the excellent CRI. We'll see...

I wanted to try on another host, but this might still be the best choice. Too bad they don't come with higher outputs.

Texlite, please keep me in the loop if you gather any higher flux emitters and THANKS for the awesome info and opportunity!

:thumbsup:


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## discoverEDC (Sep 10, 2008)

copperfox, gunga,

Thanks for your interest. The beam itself is incanish to my eyes, yellow in other words. I'm getting used to it after a week. The high CRI is worth living with the tint. I was pretty excited when I posted, Milky is right about output, my 120P is probably putting out 70-80 lumens out the front end. Someone in McGizmo's high CRI thread noted that our eyes are more sensitive to blue light so there is also some subjective loss of output. All said I am happy I did the mod. The reflector does it's usual fantastic job and there aren't any strange colors. The throw is proportional to the new lumen output. High CRI is a different animal than just a warm tint, as they say seeing is believing. I look forward to new generations of high CRI emitters with higher CCT and higher output but for now I am happy with what I have.

Copperfox follow the link below, at the end is a series of pictures that show the light engine free of the body:

http://www.light-reviews.com/novatac_120p/

Pretty much all you need is the emitter, thermal paste, and solder/flux.
Use outward acting snapring pliers to remove the retaining ring from below the LE and it should drop out, if it doesn't, remove the bezel and lens and that will do it. Make note of the orientation of the emitter in the LE (you can use the picture in the review as a reference) and unsolder the leads. The emitter will pull right out. A dab of thermal paste and put the new emitter in, flux/solder. Reassemble and you are good to go. The anno. on the LE looks to be type 2 so be careful not to scratch it, I also try to keep the leads from touching the sides of the channels they sit in.

My experience was good, I hope it is for others as well.

Walt




copperfox said:


> Walt, tell me more! This exact thing crossed my mind, but I am hesitant. I've swapped emitters before, is modding the Novatac just as easy? Does it get less-bright after the mod? It's better with color rendering, but not as yellow as an incandescent, correct?


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## copperfox (Sep 10, 2008)

Thanks for the details Walt. I think I will first mod some magLED dropins with this high-CRI SSC, and maybe my Energizer 1xAA (from Target) so that I can see if I like the color enough to sacrifice ~35% output.


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## gunga (Sep 10, 2008)

Hmmm, well, I have another light or 2 that will function like the Novatac, so I think I will try the mod! 

Thanks for the info DiscoverEDC! Keep providing feedback as you get more used to the tint. My soldering finger is itchy...

:naughty:


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## discoverEDC (Sep 11, 2008)

gunga,
I've seen many of your posts over the years, it's a pleasure to speak to you face to face as it were. My personal motto almost could be when in doubt mod :naughty: I don't have too many factory orginal lights in my collection. I don't know what you have in-hand to mod but I've thought the LF-3 would be a good host for the high CRE Seoul.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12063
Multi-level, multi-mode, and programmable(also CR123A and RCR). Also, a reflector designed for Seoul's, I've also seen posts that it is easy to get into. Khoo in the marketplace also sells these. Anywho, have at it and let us know how it turns out. 

BTW, I'm getting more used to the beam tint. I have to warn you, after you use these for a short while regular LEDs look nasty (blue/flat). I showed my new lights to an electrician friend in a mechanical room and he liked the high CRI much better, even with the yellowish beam. He said the wire colors were much better.

copperfox,
I would consider installing the high CRI in a 3 watt rated light. At 700-800 mA they are almost like a lux 3.5, in a 1 watt rated light it will only see 300-350 mA the actual output would probably be similar but perceived output will be lower. The other thing to consider is that lights with reflectors ment for regular Seouls will be more likely to have a decent beam pattern. I'll cajole you to mod your Novatac though, it's a pretty easy mod and you can reverse it if you don't like it (you too gunga):naughty:

In the tradition of the CPF the other option for more output is overdriving the emitter  If you read above in the thread my L-mini mod with the high CRI Seoul turned out well. At this point I believe it is putting out the front an actual 100 lumens, but since the lux doesn't quite match the Novatac I think I'm going to adjust the pot on the LE for max output and see what happens. I'm also going to try and get some relative output lightbox readings tonight. Wish me luck.

Regards,
Walt


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## TexLite (Sep 11, 2008)

tebore said:


> You seem to be on to something.
> 
> All U2 bins I've been playing with seems to display a halo effect while the U1 and older U-bins rarely ever show it and when it happens it's less pronounced. I look forward to receiving the emitters you sent out.
> 
> Lets hope it is a new process and will help move them in to the V and W bin area for the cool or T and U bin in the warm/neutral P4. Hopefully the new bins will also have this halo corona fixed.


 
The strange part is instead of being white and having a yellow corona,the high CRI's have a yellow spot and white corona,in the poor performing reflectors anyway.The yellow spot is annoying to me.

In this L1P,its a nice smooth white hotspot and spill,without color variations,but in a Mag its a yellow hotspot and white spill.

I've ruled out variations simply between emitters because if I use some diffusion material over the reflectors,the variations smooth out to pure white.I think its a combination of Milky's prism suggestion and the corona effect the newer Seouls display.

-Michael


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## saabluster (Sep 12, 2008)

TexLite said:


> The strange part is instead of being white and having a yellow corona,the high CRI's have a yellow spot and white corona,in the poor performing reflectors anyway.The yellow spot is annoying to me.
> 
> In this L1P,its a nice smooth white hotspot and spill,without color variations,but in a Mag its a yellow hotspot and white spill.



In my light I have a nice warm spill and a blue spot.:thinking:



TexLite said:


> I think its a combination of Milky's prism suggestion and the corona effect the newer Seouls display.
> 
> -Michael


With all due respect to Milky, reflectors don't create the prism effect. That is something that happens from refraction not reflection.


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## gunga (Sep 12, 2008)

It's a pleasure "talking" with you too DiscoverEDC. :wave:

Wow, you've been following my ramblings over the years? Wow, I hope they have been good!

As for the LF3? Well, I have owned the LF3/2/5/5XT/2X. All quite nice lights. I was not a big fan of the twisty interface and had some UI issues with the Lightflux lights. Overall, fine lights with fantastic features, but I am just not a fan. I have had all, and sold them all (though I would have kept the LF2x had they set it up like the extreme 3, better knurling and simple hold for keyring tail).

BTW, if you have any insight on good multimode drivers from DX, let me know. I know the 7882 is well liked, but I'm trying to get a 5ish mode driver, not a 19-20 mode mishmash (gonna mod a coming Lumapower).

Sorry, I digress. The Lumapower LM31 series (or older LM301 series) is unpotted and an easy mod. Nice smooth beams and good prices. I would have suggested an older Fenix but I couldn't unpot mine.

What about modding a Princeton Tec EOS? A high CRI headlamp might be good (I use Stippled Khatods in mine. Perfect headlamp beam).

BTW, I do like stock lights, but always like adding my own personal touches too!


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## TexLite (Sep 12, 2008)

saabluster said:


> In my light I have a nice warm spill and a blue spot.:thinking:


 
That blue spot may be the result of the reflector.Its been in all the MiniMag LED's I've done,with the factory reflector.If you look down at them while on you can see the blue plastic either through the coating or being reflected,I'm not sure which.In those the spot is blueish white with normal spill.By normal,I mean the tint if diffused or simply bare.With some really effective diffusion material I have,the beam becomes this perfectly mixed floody white,really nice.

Maybe some of the blue we've experienced with cool emitters in the past has in part been due to the reflectors.

The tint variations seem to be present in most of the newer Seouls,they just seem more pronounced with the high CRI emitter.

-Michael


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## saabluster (Sep 13, 2008)

TexLite said:


> That blue spot may be the result of the reflector.Its been in all the MiniMag LED's I've done,with the factory reflector.If you look down at them while on you can see the blue plastic either through the coating or being reflected,I'm not sure which.In those the spot is blueish white with normal spill.By normal,I mean the tint if diffused or simply bare.With some really effective diffusion material I have,the beam becomes this perfectly mixed floody white,really nice.
> 
> Maybe some of the blue we've experienced with cool emitters in the past has in part been due to the reflectors.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you mention the same issue exists with the Mag LED reflector but I think you are not on the right track as to the cause. I think it impossible that the color underneath the reflective layer could have even the slightest bit to do with the odd tint variation. The reflector I am using the high CRI P4 with is a grey plastic. I also have the Mag LED reflector with the blue plastic. What is common with these two is that they are both very deep and smooth. The area of output that is more blue coming from the P4 must be closer to the center and would therefore be more likely to be picked up by the deeper reflector than would be by the shallow one.


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## discoverEDC (Sep 13, 2008)

gunga,
No stalking going on! Just saying I've noticed your username in various threads I've been interested in over the years.

I just mentioned the LF-3 as a possible host with high feature content, I've got my 120P and L-Mini modded with the high CRI Seouls and that'll be it for now.

Regards,
Walt

PS I'm pretty used to the beam color now.




gunga said:


> It's a pleasure "talking" with you too DiscoverEDC. :wave:
> 
> Wow, you've been following my ramblings over the years? Wow, I hope they have been good!


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## mudman cj (Sep 13, 2008)

How is the throw in that L-mini? I have been thinking I might build a single cell light with one of these high CRI Seouls and an optic for the smallest throwy EDC, but then again maybe a nice reflector as in the L-mini would throw better than any optic combined the Seoul emission pattern. I just don't remember seeing a Seoul used with an optic, especially for throw. Comments?


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## discoverEDC (Sep 14, 2008)

mudman cj,
McGizmo said in his high CRI thread that an optic will make a nasty blue hotspot. The original OP reflector in the L-mini works but the hotspot is too small and very intense, I didn't test it outside. I was looking for a more traditional beam pattern where you can actually see things in the hotspot and not be blinded. :green:
I ended up using a cutdown SMO Khatod reflector (ment for Seoul's). It started out as a 20mm but it probably is very close to their stock 17mm reflector now (photonfanatic has them in the marketplace). Nice beam pattern, hotspot is slightly larger than my Novatac 120P or Ra Twisty 100Tw. The spillbeam area is larger than either of those two lights as well. With this reflector it throws about as well as the Ra Twisty 100Tw, this is more of an area light than a throw light. The only way to fit a deeper reflector would be to have the bezel almost unscrewed off of the light (also nothing larger than 18mm in dia will fit up against the lens).
With stock settings on the L-mini (version 1: 18650, high-med-low-strobe...) the high setting overdrives the emitter (max allowable 800mA, probable emitter amps 1,000mA) the total out the front is near 100 lum plus or minus.
Let us know if you go with a L-mini.

Regards,
Walt




mudman cj said:


> How is the throw in that L-mini? I have been thinking I might build a single cell light with one of these high CRI Seouls and an optic for the smallest throwy EDC, but then again maybe a nice reflector as in the L-mini would throw better than any optic combined the Seoul emission pattern. I just don't remember seeing a Seoul used with an optic, especially for throw. Comments?


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## saabluster (Sep 15, 2008)

discoverEDC said:


> mudman cj,
> McGizmo said in his high CRI thread that an optic will make a nasty blue hotspot.


This would add more credence to what I said earlier about the reason deep reflectors cause there to be a blue hotspot.


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## mudman cj (Sep 15, 2008)

Was the intense hotspot with the original OP reflector in the L-mini blue?

Edit: Oh, I just looked more deeply into the specs for L-mini and reread your post before realizing that the high CRI Seoul emitter would be over driven quite a bit in this light. I should probably look elsewhere for a host, but I appreciate the information nonetheless.


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## discoverEDC (Sep 15, 2008)

mudman cj said:


> Was the intense hotspot with the original OP reflector in the L-mini blue?
> 
> Edit: Oh, I just looked more deeply into the specs for L-mini and reread your post before realizing that the high CRI Seoul emitter would be over driven quite a bit in this light. I should probably look elsewhere for a host, but I appreciate the information nonetheless.



mudman cj,
The L-mini could still work for you. On version 1 there is an adjusment pot on the bottom of the light engine that can dial the output down for all of the levels. I believe that you could get to the manufacturer max of 800 mA to the emitter. There is a picture of the board in the L-mini sales thread. As a note, the adjustment pot does not have end limits, it will keep turning. What I did was make an adjustment and then check the tailcap draw.

The original reflector was ment for cree but it is very shallow for a cree reflector. The intense hotspot was not blue, just intense.

Hope this answers some questions.

Walt


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## 2xTrinity (Sep 16, 2008)

> The strange part is instead of being white and having a yellow corona,the high CRI's have a yellow spot and white corona,in the poor performing reflectors anyway.The yellow spot is annoying to me.


Try diaing down an emitter to very low current, and looking at the emitter directly. Light that is projected out the front will tend to go straight through the phosphor, whereas light that is emitter through the sides will have to transmit through a thicker amount of phosphor before escaping, thus light emitted toward the edges will tend to be more yellowish. In a reflector light, this is the portion that is collimated into the "Spot".

i've found that generally lights that are uneven like that to begin with tend to do better in TIR optic designs, where ALL of the light is collimated into the "spot".


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## saabluster (Sep 16, 2008)

2xTrinity said:


> i've found that generally lights that are uneven like that to begin with tend to do better in TIR optic designs, where ALL of the light is collimated into the "spot".



Good! I was planing on using some TIR optics on my 7 High CRI P4 mod. I thought I would need to add some diffusion over it but maybe not.


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## mudman cj (Sep 16, 2008)

DiscoverEDC posted above that McGizmo found optics to result in a blue hotspot with the new high CRI LEDs. I am not certain he was refering to the Seouls, but I know he has worked with them so he likely tried them with various optical components. Interestingly, he said he does not care for them as much as the Nichia 083, hence his selection of them for the Sundrop despite the lower power capability.
Edit: I almost forgot - thank you for that L-mini V1 tip Walt!


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## saabluster (Sep 16, 2008)

mudman cj said:


> DiscoverEDC posted above that McGizmo found optics to result in a blue hotspot with the new high CRI LEDs.


TIR optics are not the same thing as a normal lens. It captures the light emitted to the sides and throws that forward. This should result in a mixing of the blue with the white/yellow emitted to the sides. If it does not come out as smoothly blended as I like I have some really good diffusion film to put over it.


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## TexLite (Sep 16, 2008)

2xTrinity said:


> i've found that generally lights that are uneven like that to begin with tend to do better in TIR optic designs, where ALL of the light is collimated into the "spot".


 


saabluster said:


> TIR optics are not the same thing as a normal lens. It captures the light emitted to the sides and throws that forward. This should result in a mixing of the blue with the white/yellow emitted to the sides. If it does not come out as smoothly blended as I like I have some really good diffusion film to put over it.


 
That makes me want to put one in an older E2L.I have used these with standard optics,and the result was poor.

-Michael


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## tsl (Sep 17, 2008)

2xTrinity said:


> i've found that generally lights that are uneven like that to begin with tend to do better in TIR optic designs, where ALL of the light is collimated into the "spot".


 
What are you using with the Cree Q2 5A emitters? Optic or reflector? Have you used any TIR optics with the Seoul high CRI emitters?

I ask because I'm thinking of replacing the emitter in the Cree L1 with something warmer. I like the beam, so I want to keep the stock optic.


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## jag-engr (Sep 17, 2008)

I'm probably going to regret this, but I have a sudden urge to do my first emitter mod. I have a LumaPower LM 31 that would be an ideal candidate. The new emitter should work with the existing reflector, I think. :shrug:

*Where can I get the high CRI Seoul LEDs?*

Also, has anyone tried a high CRI Seoul mod with an EX10 or D10?  What would have to be changed to make it work? I'm sure the reflector would have to be cut down or replaced. Any ideas?


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## tebore (Sep 17, 2008)

jag-engr said:


> I'm probably going to regret this, but I have a sudden urge to do my first emitter mod. I have a LumaPower LM 31 that would be an ideal candidate. The new emitter should work with the existing reflector, I think. :shrug:
> 
> *Where can I get the high CRI Seoul LEDs?*
> 
> Also, has anyone tried a high CRI Seoul mod with an EX10 or D10? What would have to be changed to make it work? I'm sure the reflector would have to be cut down or replaced. Any ideas?



With the EX10 and D10 you'd probably have to start off with the GDP version as the reflector for the GDP is designed for beam angles similar to the lux 3/P4 where as the Cree version is for ~90 degree beam patterns. That said it'd be interesting to see.


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## TexLite (Sep 17, 2008)

TexLite said:


> Mouser has them here,http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=tAn5ob3kyLKvEp6t%252bc8PfQ%3d%3d
> These are SRO's,I'm still looking for a higher color temp.
> 
> Thanks,
> Michael


 
jag-engr,you can purchase them from Mouser in the link above.

-Michael


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## discoverEDC (Sep 17, 2008)

mudman cj said:


> DiscoverEDC
> Edit: I almost forgot - thank you for that L-mini V1 tip Walt!


 
No problem, I had forgotten you did the tutorial on the poor man's Sundrop using the Q3. I would like to get a side by side comparo between the high CRI 083 and the high CRI Seoul(hint, hint). I suspect the Q3 reflector is probably getting the most out of the Nichia, the stippled Khatod would certainly work but with almost no throw to speak of. I hope to have sparked your modding juices.

Regards, 
Walt


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## discoverEDC (Sep 17, 2008)

jag-engr said:


> I'm probably going to regret this, but I have a sudden urge to do my first emitter mod. I have a LumaPower LM 31 that would be an ideal candidate. The new emitter should work with the existing reflector, I think. :shrug:
> 
> *Where can I get the high CRI Seoul LEDs?*
> 
> Also, has anyone tried a high CRI Seoul mod with an EX10 or D10? What would have to be changed to make it work? I'm sure the reflector would have to be cut down or replaced. Any ideas?


 
jag-engr,
I'm very happy to see you in this thread after reading your posts in the other thread. You can get thermal paste by walking into Radio Shack, just make certain that there is no electrical continuity between the Seoul and your heatsink (just use the resistance setting on a multimeter and check between each of the emitter leads and the heat sink for any reading). Also, I've learned the value of flux, always use flux on both surfaces prior to soldering, it makes things work much better.
Happy modding :thumbsup:

Regards,
Walt


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## mudman cj (Sep 17, 2008)

discoverEDC said:


> No problem, I had forgotten you did the tutorial on the poor man's Sundrop using the Q3. I would like to get a side by side comparo between the high CRI 083 and the high CRI Seoul(hint, hint). I suspect the Q3 reflector is probably getting the most out of the Nichia, the stippled Khatod would certainly work but with almost no throw to speak of. I hope to have sparked your modding juices.
> 
> Regards,
> Walt



Yeah, I would really like to see and show how they compare. I too have been thinking about using one in a SF mod. I have been thinking along the lines of an L1 head on a 2 cell body such as the E2e that will accept a 17670 cell. If necessary, the driver could be replaced with an 800mA SOB to see how much throw we can get out of one of these Seouls. The SOB driver would also allow the use of 2 RCR123 cells or 2 CR123A primaries for extra run time. 

The only problem is, I intend to catch the LS20 wave and I do not currently own any of these parts, so this will have to wait until I can scrape up the dough.  I was thinking some people would be interested in the poor man's Sundrop and I could make a little money building a few, but so far there has been no interest shown. I don't get it. There must be hundreds of unused Q3s sitting around, and these new Nichia LEDs really are in another class altogether. I think most people just have no idea what they are missing. This light rocks, and is my favorite EDC. I don't know if even the LS20 can kick it out of that position, but I am willing to let it try. 

Edit: Sorry, I did not intend to hijack this thread and turn it into a sales thread. Please direct inquiries about the poor man's Sundrop to me by PM or to the poor man's Sundrop thread in homemade/modified.


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## PLT (Sep 17, 2008)

Mudman, I am interested in the high CRI Q3 except that I don't have the host. If you are offering them as a complete unit, I am in for one or two provide that you could ship overseas.


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## discoverEDC (Sep 18, 2008)

mudman cj said:


> Yeah, I would really like to see and show how they compare. I too have been thinking about using one in a SF mod. I have been thinking along the lines of an L1 head on a 2 cell body such as the E2e that will accept a 17670 cell. If necessary, the driver could be replaced with an 800mA SOB to see how much throw we can get out of one of these Seouls. The SOB driver would also allow the use of 2 RCR123 cells or 2 CR123A primaries for extra run time.
> 
> The only problem is, I intend to catch the LS20 wave and I do not currently own any of these parts, so this will have to wait until I can scrape up the dough.  I was thinking some people would be interested in the poor man's Sundrop and I could make a little money building a few, but so far there has been no interest shown. I don't get it. There must be hundreds of unused Q3s sitting around, and these new Nichia LEDs really are in another class altogether. I think most people just have no idea what they are missing. This light rocks, and is my favorite EDC. I don't know if even the LS20 can kick it out of that position, but I am willing to let it try.
> 
> Edit: Sorry, I did not intend to hijack this thread and turn it into a sales thread. Please direct inquiries about the poor man's Sundrop to me by PM or to the poor man's Sundrop thread in homemade/modified.


 
mudman cj,
Good luck on the LS20, anything McGizmo rocks. Maybe in the misty future for me. The LS20 sounds like a cool concept but now you've been spoiled by high CRI goodness, on the sales thread it sounded like the CCT was higher...

I have an electrician friend I introduced to the Fenix P1 several years ago, I think I might be putting a high CRI Seoul in his in two or three weeks. He got the idea of good color rendering immediately.

Regards,
Walt


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## discoverEDC (Sep 18, 2008)

It appears that I have somewhat misquoted McGizmo about using optics with the high CRI Seoul, his statement in bold, my apologies to McGizmo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *tsl* 

 
_Don,

Is this a true statement with all of your reflectors or just the McR-20S? I was hoping to put a high CRI Seoul in a L1 with a McR-18 reflector, but your comment has me scratching my head in doubt.

Would an optic make more sense or not? Have you noticed the same issue with the warm white Crees?_

tsl, 

I would expect the McR-18 to behave in a similar fashion but I also don't want to state that my experience with a couple specific LED's should be taken to be the case across the whole population of LED's. My experience is a single data point and I comment on a subjective basis here!

*To the extent that a LED has tint seperation from spot to spill in a reflector, as I recall, with a TIR optic, you experience separation as well but the locations of the tints will reverse, I think.*


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## tebore (Sep 20, 2008)

Just finishing putting these in to 2 or my HDS lights. 
Side by side against a U2SVOH






High CRI alone






SVO alone






The high CRI looks like sunlight.


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## jag-engr (Sep 29, 2008)

TexLite said:


> jag-engr,you can purchase them from Mouser in the link above.
> 
> -Michael


 
TexLite,
 
Any idea what the shipping would be for one or two emitters within the CONUS? I can't seem to get a quote without creating an account.

Disregard this question. Shipping is $6-9. They ship UPS ground.


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## rolling (Oct 16, 2008)

I put one into a ARC LSH-P along with a McR-18S and i really like it. Not as bright but nice tint.


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## gunga (Oct 16, 2008)

I finally put one of these seouls in my Novatac 120P a couple days ago.

Wow, that is wild. It's is very warm (but not incan yet) and definitely less bright.

It also is much more pleasing. If they could ever catch up in flux, this would be amazing. I will continue to experiment to see what I think.

very cool so far though.


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## TexLite (Oct 16, 2008)

Yeah,I agree with you guys,the downside to these is the output.

I could be wrong,but I dont think we'll see an increase in output with these anytime soon.

-Michael


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## 2xTrinity (Oct 17, 2008)

I ordered a couple, though I accidentally destroyed one so I can't take beamshots at the moment.

I was quite underwhelmed. While the difference in color rendering is pretty noticeable compared to some of the more common cool white LEDs, it doesn't seem too dramatic compared to the 7A Cree which is the same color temp, and almost double the efficiency. It's also available in the MC-E package. 

I personally actually like a somewhat higher color temperature, 3600-4200k, so I actually prefer the 6A/5A crees over these. CRI is not perfect -- they are comparable to CFLs which may tweak a few colors slightly if you look hard, but I'd say they're most of the way there compared to the typical cool white LED with minimal red content in them.

Especially when you consider efficiency of the warm/neutral Cree is about double, and overall ouput as high as 8x higher (MC-E).


I might be interseted in a high CRI neutral white LED.

From now on I will only be buying neutral and warm white LEDs, as I value CRI more than an extra 20% output. Trying to take it a step further and get perfect CRI on the other hand looks like a case of diminishing returns, as efficiency difference there plummets.


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## AvroArrow (Oct 31, 2008)

tebore said:


> Just finishing putting these in to 2 or my HDS lights.
> Side by side against a U2SVOH



I also just put one of these high CRIs into an older U60 (w/fixed reflector) and wow... the color rendering is so much better (this is my first high CRI light). Yes, it's not as bright as my other USW0H modded U60GT, but it's still brighter than the stock 60lm Lux3, and the SSC has a lower Vf compared to stock (Lux3: [email protected] vs SSC: [email protected]) so it should run a tad longer. 

Focus is good with the stock HDS reflector. It looks like my other SSC modded HDS, which has a hotspot that is less defined than stock Lux3, but still very nice beam. 

Now I want to get my hands on the high CRI Nichia 083s (from McGizmo) and some 6A/6B Cree XR-Es (3500-3700K) to compare. Especially the XR-E because the CRI rating on the Warm White XR-Es (2600-3700K) is only 80 compared to the 93 of the S2SR0x SSC (3500-3820K) and 92 of the D2 Nichia 083 (4000-4600K). The more commonly available 5A Cree (4000-4300K) is considered a Neutral White (3700-5000K) with a CRI of only 75.


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## TexLite (Oct 31, 2008)

2xTrinity said:


> While the difference in color rendering is pretty noticeable compared to some of the more common cool white LEDs, it doesn't seem too dramatic compared to the 7A Cree which is the same color temp, and almost double the efficiency.


 
I would have to say theres a very noticeable from the Warm/Neutral Cree's I've seen,and the high CRI SSC.The Warm and Neutral Cree's still have a tint hue which is noticeable,but not the SSC.With the SSC everything looks completely normal,with the Cree I can still see a noticeable tint,though I agree,the W/N Cree's are superior for everyday use.I dont notice the Cree's in everyday use too much,but side by side with the SSC,theres a noticeable difference.

I haven't seen the 7A's,is there a big difference those and the 5A's,which are as warm as I've been? 



2xTrinity said:


> CRI is not perfect -- they are comparable to CFLs which may tweak a few colors slightly if you look hard, but I'd say they're most of the way there compared to the typical cool white LED with minimal red content in them.


 
The CRI numerically isn't perfect,but I'm not able to distinguish any color shift,nor does it look like any FL I've ever seen,are CFL's that much better?

Maybe your looking closer or have better CFL's,or can see/understand something I don't.

As a side note,the SSC's should have been ~3700k.



AvroArrow said:


> I also just put one of these high CRIs into an older U60 (w/fixed reflector) and wow... the color rendering is so much better (this is my first high CRI light)...
> 
> Now I want to get my hands on the high CRI Nichia 083s (from McGizmo) and some 6A/6B Cree XR-Es (3500-3700K) to compare. Especially the XR-E because the CRI rating on the Warm White XR-Es (2600-3700K) is only 80 compared to the 93 of the S2SR0x SSC (3500-3820K) and 92 of the D2 Nichia 083 (4000-4600K). The more commonly available 5A Cree (4000-4300K) is considered a Neutral White (3700-5000K) with a CRI of only 75.


 
Thats cool Avro.

As you said,the Warm and Neutral XR-E's have a lower CRI than the SSC or the Nichia.

Its been my experience as well as some others who have used both emitters,that the high CRI SSC has no noticeable tint or color hue,just white,everything looks completely natural.

While the Cree's still have a noticeable tint,much better than the cool whites,but still there.

The Cree's get the nod for output though,and I prefer them for most uses,but my "project" lights use the high CRI SSC.Its great to be able to inspect or work on something with everything looking completely natural.I even prefer them for reading lights.

I'd like to try the Nichia's as well.According to Don,he liked them better than the SSC's he had used,though I'm not sure if they were the same as discussed here.

Thanks for the input guy's.

-Michael


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## saabluster (Oct 31, 2008)

TexLite said:


> I would have to say theres a very noticeable from the Warm/Neutral Cree's I've seen,and the high CRI SSC.The Warm and Neutral Cree's still have a tint hue which is noticeable,but not the SSC.With the SSC everything looks completely normal,with the Cree I can still see a noticeable tint
> 
> I haven't seen the 7A's,is there a big difference those and the 5A's,which are as warm as I've been?


I agree with you Michael about the difference between the SSC and the Cree. The SSC makes everything look exactly as it should. I was amazed at the difference between the 5A and 6C Cree also as they are not that far from one another but the 6C had way more red in it. The only problem is it has too much yellow for my liking. Take a look at these pictures I took.


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## TexLite (Oct 31, 2008)

Wow,thanks for the great pics and comments.

I didn't realize there would be such a difference between the 5A and 6C.

I had held off on ordering some higher binned 5C's becuase I didn't imagine they would be a whole lot better that the 3A's/5A's etc.

I think now I'll reconsider,I would gladly trade that mauve/pinkish tint in the more neutral Cree's for a little more yellow.Was the yellow pronounced,or just present? 

Thanks Again,
Michael


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## tsl (Oct 31, 2008)

saabluster said:


> I was amazed at the difference between the 5A and 6C Cree also as they are not that far from one another but the 6C had way more red in it. The only problem is it has too much yellow for my liking. Take a look at these pictures I took.


 
WOW ... those are great pictures showing the difference in tint. IMO, the 5A looks the best. Which of the three gave the truer rendition?


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## 2xTrinity (Oct 31, 2008)

> I haven't seen the 7A's,is there a big difference those and the 5A's,which are as warm as I've been?


I have some 7As right now that I'm building into a bike light (I want lower Color temp so as not to disturb oncoming traffic as much, but I also want higher efficiency than incan)

They are actually warmer than all my LED flashlights, color temp is around 2800k, same as a typical household incan. As far as tint, It tends to appear slightly reddish compared to incandescents, similar to the 6A in the pictures by Texlite. Cree has LEDs (8x) as warm as 2650k. 

I generally don't like light that warm if I can avoid it. all my incan flashlights are overdriven to 3300k+, and all my home lighting is 3500k fluorescent. The bike light is an exception.


As far as CRI on the warmer LEDs, I've found that they tend to make things appear reddish-brownish. I have found through playing around with flashlgiht beams that mixing some cyan into the mix fixes this. Mixing a "blue-greenish" tinted cool white LED such as a WH also helps. This is logical, as cyan is really the only spectral deficiency, and it's the complement to red.

An almost perfect array (IMO) would be the following:

Cool white LED + Warm white LED + Cyan + deep red (to counterbalance the cyan). 

With the right electronics, and optics to mix the colors, that would offer a complete spectrum and almost seamless color temperature adjustment from 2700k to 6500k, and good CRI at all the stages as well.


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## TexLite (Oct 31, 2008)

2xTrinity said:


> An almost perfect array (IMO) would be the following:
> 
> Cool white LED + Warm white LED + Cyan + deep red (to counterbalance the cyan).


 
I'd like to see something like that,if I can help or contribute in some way let me know.



tsl said:


> WOW ... those are great pictures showing the difference in tint. IMO, the 5A looks the best. Which of the three gave the truer rendition?


 
To me it looks like the 6C.Its easy to see how the neutral/warm tints look more than natural than the cool tint,and that against one of the best cool tints,the WH.

saabluster will be able to answer this from first person perspective though. 

-Michael


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## saabluster (Nov 1, 2008)

tsl said:


> WOW ... those are great pictures showing the difference in tint. IMO, the 5A looks the best. Which of the three gave the truer rendition?


The 5A has a much better color temp but the 6C most definitely had the better color rendition. I think it needs more blue in it to help balance out the yellow though. I figure a good way to do that is to drive it at about 6A. :naughty:


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## saabluster (Nov 1, 2008)

TexLite said:


> I had held off on ordering some higher binned 5C's becuase I didn't imagine they would be a whole lot better that the 3A's/5A's etc.


Keep in mind that there probably will not be much of a difference between the 5A and the 5C as they are both using the same phosphor in the neutral white zone. The warm white uses a different phosphor if I remember right which is why there is such a huge difference between the 5A and the 6C even though they are so close to one another.


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## TexLite (Nov 1, 2008)

saabluster said:


> Keep in mind that there probably will not be much of a difference between the 5A and the 5C as they are both using the same phosphor in the neutral white zone. The warm white uses a different phosphor if I remember right which is why there is such a huge difference between the 5A and the 6C even though they are so close to one another.


 
I hadn't considered that,something like the WH/WJ and the 3A/3B.

-Michael


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## 2xTrinity (Nov 1, 2008)

saabluster said:


> The 5A has a much better color temp but the 6C most definitely had the better color rendition. I think it needs more blue in it to help balance out the yellow though. I figure a good way to do that is to drive it at about 6A. :naughty:


I arrived at exactly the same conclusions. Next time I build a multi MC-E light, it will be equal parts 5A and 6C. I find the tints of the two complement each other well, but color temps are similar enough that color mixing isn't a problem.


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## tebore (Dec 4, 2008)

Hey Tex did you ever get any closer to finding a source for the U2SUN cool whites. 

Does anyone have a source for the ST1 bin neutral whites?


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## TexLite (Dec 4, 2008)

tebore said:


> Hey Tex did you ever get any closer to finding a source for the U2SUN cool whites.
> 
> Does anyone have a source for the ST1 bin neutral whites?


 
Unfortunately,no,I'm still on the lookout though.I actually spoke with Gunga about this very subject yesterday.

I had seen some of the SUN bins available,but I wasn't set up to purchase from the supplier.By the time I got back around,they were gone.I assume they had run out of stock.

I'll continue my search,I know they are available from Seoul,I just haven't been able to find a supplier who has stock yet.

-Michael


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## tebore (Dec 4, 2008)

TexLite said:


> Unfortunately,no,I'm still on the lookout though.I actually spoke with Gunga about this very subject yesterday.
> 
> I had seen some of the SUN bins available,but I wasn't set up to purchase from the supplier.By the time I got back around,they were gone.I assume they had run out of stock.
> 
> ...



I've talked to Seoul about it and all they said was to check with local distributors. I'm assuming the only way to get from SSC directly is to be in Korea or to get them in the hundred of thousands.


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## TexLite (Dec 4, 2008)

tebore said:


> I've talked to Seoul about it and all they said was to check with local distributors. I'm assuming the only way to get from SSC directly is to be in Korea or to get them in the hundred of thousands.


 
Yeah,not much help from the manufacturer,they want to sell in volume.You can buy from Seoul in quantities of ~500 I think,but no guarantee of a specific tint bin.I think flux bin is the only thing they will specifically let you order by.

I'll keep checking the distributors I know.If anyone knows of a potential source for the SUN bin or similar any lead would be appreciated.

-Michael


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## gunga (Dec 4, 2008)

It's funny, I have done quite a few mods over the last while. 

If there was a better tint bin like this available, I'd be tempted to remod all my lights to get this better tint (like way better). 

I like the high CRI seoul, but think an equivalent to cree 5A would be more universally useful (higher flux, great tint).

Maybe we can persuade Photon Fanatic to get a purchase going? I would definitely be into more of these.

:thumbsup:


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## tebore (Dec 4, 2008)

gunga said:


> It's funny, I have done quite a few mods over the last while.
> 
> If there was a better tint bin like this available, I'd be tempted to remod all my lights to get this better tint (like way better).
> 
> ...



My fellow canuck I think we're gonna have to persuade Fred to get a reel or organize a group buy. 

The SUN bin is nearing the 4000k range too bad I haven't seen it in action. I've asked SSC for samples but they just pointed to their distributors which don't have that bin. SSC is their own worst enemy with service like that.


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## darkzero (Dec 4, 2008)

To warm for my liking but these are definitely pretty cool! Warmer than my incans but it does give it that incan "feel". Makes my incans look white but makes my vanilla tinted LEDs look too blue. Never would of that that kind of color could come out of an LED.

I did a HA-Nat McLuxIII PD with one but can't find my pics, I think I forgot to take some. Drove that one in the 800ma range. Here's another one that I just did though:












Thanks Texlite! :thumbsup:


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## TexLite (Dec 4, 2008)

darkzero said:


> To warm for my liking but these are definitely pretty cool! Warmer than my incans but it does give it that incan "feel". Makes my incans look white but makes my vanilla tinted LEDs look too blue. Never would of that that kind of color coming out of an LED.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hi Will,

Thats been my complaint too,I would like to find some of these in 4000k-4500k,and much higher bin of course!

It is quite strange to see an LED emit thiat kind of color for the first time.

Your very welcome,looks like it turned out great!



tebore said:


> My fellow canuck I think we're gonna have to persuade Fred to get a reel or organize a group buy.
> 
> The SUN bin is nearing the 4000k range too bad I haven't seen it in action. I've asked SSC for samples but they just pointed to their distributors which don't have that bin. SSC is their own worst enemy with service like that.


 
Maybe someone can get ahold of a sample board and do some comparative beamshots.Might be tedious,but it could be done without damaging the emitters or the board.

What would be even worse than these turning out to be unobtanium,would be to buy a large quantity and they turn out to be poor performers.

Maybe Fred can get some samples or a small first run?

-Michael


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## darkzero (Dec 4, 2008)

TexLite said:


> Hi Will,
> 
> Thats been my complaint too,I would like to find some of these in 4000k-4500k,and much higher bin of course!
> 
> Your very welcome,looks like it turned out great.


 
Does Mouser only stock one bin? I think I remember seeing neutral white & warm white. Not sure which emitter & bin the one in the HDS was but it came from Mouser too. Looked the same as the one used in the PD though. Hotspot was a bit blue/purpleish


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## TexLite (Dec 4, 2008)

darkzero said:


> Does Mouser only stock one bin? I think I remember seeing neutral white & warm white. Not sure which emitter & bin the one in the HDS was but it came from Mouser too. Looked the same as the one used in the PD though. Hotspot was a bit blue/purpleish


 
When I called they checked the Neutral white reel they had and it was SRO.My assumption was they only stocked one reel of each Warm and Neutral.I'm not sure what the Warm bin was.

I can check to be sure,boy I'd sure feel dumb if they had a higher K bin Neutral



.

-Michael


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## tebore (Dec 8, 2008)

Fred said he'd get a reel of SUN binned emitter if we can get buyers for 100+ emitters. So if you'd like to get the warmest cool white P4 chime in.


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## Tronic (Dec 8, 2008)

tebore said:


> Fred said he'd get a reel of SUN binned emitter if we can get buyers for 100+ emitters. So if you'd like to get the warmest cool white P4 chime in.


Maybe someone should post a feeler on the MP.

I would definitively be interested in about 5 emitter.


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## Blindasabat (Dec 8, 2008)

I will get at least four, probably more eventually. I would replace several of my SSC's (and some Luxeon) with these. I have been looking for this bin for a while! This SSC tint is actually similar to Cree 3C & 4B neutral as far as CCT between 4500 and 5000, and just above the BBL. These will soo rock tint-wise. Great for outdoor use. Can't wait.


tebore said:


> Fred said he'd get a reel of SUN binned emitter if we can get buyers for 100+ emitters. So if you'd like to get the warmest cool white P4 chime in.


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## tebore (Dec 8, 2008)

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=187470

The feeler thread is up


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## TexLite (Dec 13, 2008)

tebore said:


> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=187470
> 
> The feeler thread is up


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## LLCoolBeans (Jan 19, 2009)

Is there a warmer tint version of these LEDs? Maybe somewhere around 3000k, but with a CRI of 90+.

For instance, what about these...
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvbrKVFTEWTlqOZlvE%2f%2fZRzYgFLQCpH%2fco%3d

How does one determine the CRI?


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## rolling (Jan 19, 2009)

They are 3000k, mine anyway.


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## mudman cj (Jan 19, 2009)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Is there a warmer tint version of these LEDs? Maybe somewhere around 3000k, but with a CRI of 90+.
> 
> For instance, what about these...
> http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvbrKVFTEWTlqOZlvE%2f%2fZRzYgFLQCpH%2fco%3d
> ...



I have one of those I am not using because I am dissatisfied with the tint despite it having a CRI of 93 (same as the 4000K CCT version). The 4000K is much better IMHO, and is itself quite yellow already. The 4000K resembles a typical incan beam, while the 3000K resembles an incan beam on dead alkalines that have been sitting in the drawer for years. :sick2:


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## LLCoolBeans (Jan 19, 2009)

mudman cj said:


> I have one of those I am not using because I am dissatisfied with the tint despite it having a CRI of 93 (same as the 4000K CCT version). The 4000K is much better IMHO, and is itself quite yellow already. The 4000K resembles a typical incan beam, while the 3000K resembles an incan beam on dead alkalines that have been sitting in the drawer for years. :sick2:



I ordered a couple of both. I'll just have to see for myself.


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## mudman cj (Jan 19, 2009)

I did the exact same thing. There is just no substitute for seeing it with your own eyes. :huh:


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## LLCoolBeans (Jan 19, 2009)

mudman cj said:


> I did the exact same thing. There is just no substitute for seeing it with your own eyes. :huh:



No biggie, if I don't like it, I wasted all of $10 and I still have the 4000k to swap with.

3000k is what I'm after. Is it the SSC rendition of 3000k you dislike or ~4000k in general? Do you feel the 3000k rating is inaccurate? Just curious.


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## divine (Jan 19, 2009)

The 4000k SSC emitters are significantly warmer than 4000K (5A) Cree emitters. The McGizmo Nichia 083 seems the coolest tint of the three.


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## mudman cj (Jan 19, 2009)

+1 for Divine's comment. The numbers don't tell the whole story in this case. After seeing the 4000K, a common reaction has been to wish there was a 4500K. I have not yet anyway heard of someone preferring the 3000K to the 4000K for use in a flashlight because most people seem to think the 3000K is just not as appealing once you see it in comparison to the 4000K. Even though I prefer the 4000K I understand that someone else may prefer the 3000K due to differences from person to person. I am interested in knowing if the 3000K is the one you like since you are after 3000K to begin with.


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## LLCoolBeans (Jan 19, 2009)

divine said:


> The 4000k SSC emitters are significantly warmer than 4000K (5A) Cree emitters. The McGizmo Nichia 083 seems the coolest tint of the three.



The Cree 5A tint is a little too cool for me. I want something a tad warmer with better color rendering. So maybe the 3000k SSCs will be too warm. One way to find out.




mudman cj said:


> I am interested in knowing if the 3000K is the one you like since you are after 3000K to begin with.



If I remember by the time they arrive and I actually get around to installing them in a light, I'll be glad to share my opinion.


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## mudman cj (Feb 1, 2009)

Well, I found an application for which I prefer the 3000K spectrum to the 4000K spectrum. It is a reading light I made for my wife. She has been using a light I made for her that uses two 5mm LEDs, but I was dissatisfied with it for many reasons. I was concerned that the large amount of blue in the spectrum could have been making it more difficult for her to fall asleep after using it to read by. Blue light signals the brain that daytime is upon it and its time to wake up, so I wanted a light source that had much less blue.

The obvious choice for this application would be an incandescent light since they have very little blue, but I wanted to use an LED so that I could make it fully dimmable with no change in tint. The 3000K CCT Seoul high CRI LED is great for this application.

I bought a grill light that uses six 5mm LEDs powered by 3xAAA batteries and modified it to run from a 5.2V 800mA Nokia phone power supply. I had to add two 1 Ohm, 1W resistors in series with the LED to limit the current to an acceptable range and then I also added a 100 Ohm potentiometer to provide a way to dim the light. 

Here is a picture of it mounted to the headboard where it will get used nightly.






And here is another pic showing a little more detail.


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## TexLite (Feb 2, 2009)

Thats a terrific idea and a very nice setup!

A pot with a switch would be really nice.

If you don't mind sharing,where did you find the light?

Thanks,
Michael


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## LLCoolBeans (Feb 2, 2009)

Mudman,

Dig it!

Could you create a solo thread about your mod and provide more info? I really like this sort of stuff.

Also, I did a mod of my own this weekend with one of the 3000k SSCs.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/221365


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## mudman cj (Feb 5, 2009)

I found the host for the reading light here. I may get some time soon to put more details in a new thread.


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## LLCoolBeans (Feb 5, 2009)

mudman cj said:


> +1 for Divine's comment. The numbers don't tell the whole story in this case. After seeing the 4000K, a common reaction has been to wish there was a 4500K. I have not yet anyway heard of someone preferring the 3000K to the 4000K for use in a flashlight because most people seem to think the 3000K is just not as appealing once you see it in comparison to the 4000K. Even though I prefer the 4000K I understand that someone else may prefer the 3000K due to differences from person to person. I am interested in knowing if the 3000K is the one you like since you are after 3000K to begin with.



Mudman,

I just swapped the emitter on a Ra Twisty with one of the 3000k emitters. It is very warm, but that is what I was after. My warm white Clicky looks almost blue in comparison. The WW Clicky uses a 4000k OSRAM GD+. The OSRAM 4000k is cooler than the 4000k SSC.

I used one of the 4000k ones in a P60L, I felt I could go a bit warmer. I have not used one of the 4000k emitters in an HDS style reflector so I can't do a direct comparison and don't know for sure if I like the 3000k better, but I think I do. Call me crazy.


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## TexLite (Feb 6, 2009)

mudman cj said:


> I found the host for the reading light here. I may get some time soon to put more details in a new thread.


 
Thanks for the link.

I looked around the other day after you posted and found the same light(or one very similar)at Lowes for $8.xx on the clearance isle.

-Michael


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## mudman cj (Feb 6, 2009)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Mudman,
> 
> I just swapped the emitter on a Ra Twisty with one of the 3000k emitters. It is very warm, but that is what I was after. My warm white Clicky looks almost blue in comparison. The WW Clicky uses a 4000k OSRAM GD+. The OSRAM 4000k is cooler than the 4000k SSC.
> 
> I used one of the 4000k ones in a P60L, I felt I could go a bit warmer. I have not used one of the 4000k emitters in an HDS style reflector so I can't do a direct comparison and don't know for sure if I like the 3000k better, but I think I do. Call me crazy.



I certainly won't call you crazy. People that live in glass houses...:tinfoil: I am glad you didn't listen to me and ended up saving the cost of shipping for a second order of warmer emitters. I was trying to help by conveying what I perceived to be a vast majority of public opinion, though admittedly it was a small sample size. And now I too have found a reason to prefer the 3000K version, so maybe that makes us both :tinfoil:. I will gladly buy any :tinfoil: person a beer should we meet.  (and that goes double for Kenster)


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## Paradime (Sep 9, 2009)

TexLite said:


> jag-engr,you can purchase them from Mouser in the link above.
> 
> -Michael


 
Michael,

The link is for SRO's, Have you found them in a higher color temp? Say 4-5.5K?

Thanks,
Sean


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## jar3ds (Sep 10, 2009)

thanks for the comparision shots... I know the advantages of high CRI light... i really like it with headlamps and navigation lights...

that said... i always get the highest flux bin w/ the warmest tint.... i'll never go down in flux for a better tint... but thats just me


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## DragonFlame (Dec 10, 2009)

Guys, you gotta use some lubricant to lube the threads when trying to take out the pill. I realized that a little bit too late and I'm afraid i kinda screwed up the PCB. Will see whether it still works.


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