# The vintage California cop light company thread



## bykfixer

Thank you sgt253 for inspiring this.

It seems that after the Eveready Captains and BrightStar 3D lights of the 1950's and 60's were being replaced with a slew of solid objects that doubled as flashlights that had duty officers, firemen and those wanting a Timex good flashlight... take a licking and keep on ticking. 

Now for clarity, I'm leaving out SureFire because that is when the game changed again. This thread is about cop lights that SureFires designs made go the way of the dinasaur. 

We all know of Maglite and Streamlight. Many know of Kel-Lite, some know of B-Lite, LA Screw, Pro-Light and other California made flashlight companies that produced game changers. 

This thread is meant to be a collection of information regarding those lights that now seem pretty irrelevant thanks to CNC, LED, rechargeable cells, portability and the fertile minds of numerous lab coat wearing folks. Hopefully folks will chime in and share their information or stories.

I'll start with the B-Lite. 
It was a company that ran from 1975 to 1985 owned and operated by leather accessory maker John Bianchi in Temecula Ca. They were rock solid flashlights designed by Don Keller. 
Like cop lights of the time they utilized alluminum bodies, plastic reflectors, slide switches and came in 2D to 7D along with a few C cell models. 
I'll add more as I know more.

Another game changer was Pharo-Tech who built charging stations in the 1970's in limited quantities so that Johnny Law could re-use the fabled flashlight without having to carry several pounds of spare batteries. They made chargers for Kel-Lite and LA Screw lights. Possibly others. I'll add as I know more. 
Pharoh-Tech was a product produced by Qualtech.

Edit: Info added here as a quote from LA Screw rep Ed Tor who owned a company called Qualtech who built the PharohTech. 
Note Ed has given permission to use these words to help us correctly fill in gaps of history. 
Note 2 there will likely be other quotes from Ed by myself and others as this thread progresses. 

Ed wrote:
_ I wanted to thank you for correctly noting, when you started that thread, that Qualtech (you called us PharoTech, one of our brands) was a game changer for bringing recharging ability to the young, heavy duty flashlight industry. I DO know that the Qualtech model LT-10 provided the first opportunity for cops to have an equally heavy duty and reliable charger to match their heavy duty lights. Kellite.com states, "rechargeable tail caps were produced to fit the QualTech charger which converted the D cell Kel-lite into a rechargeable flashlight. This was the first aluminum rechargeable flashlight._
End quote

Lastly I'll answer a question many have asked... why did Don Keller leave Kel-Lite at its peak?
He wrote a note to flashlight museum to answer that and other questions. 
It seems in the early days he had a partner to help construct flashlights. It also seems that the more they sold the more money was an issue. In time he made Norm Nelson a 50/50 partner. It seems money woes got worse even though sales were getting better. He and Don were philisophically going apart. One day a board meeting ended with Don being fired as the president and Norm promoted from vice president, thereby filling the void. Soon after Don resigned. And Pro-Light was begun while Norm eventually partnered with Streamlight. 

I open the floor to member Liftd4 for his epic Maglite info. Hopefully others will add as well (hint hint Magellan etc)


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## 1pt21

Cool info, thanks byk! That wouldn't happen to be the 'Norm' that we all know here on CPF would it??


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## bykfixer

I don't know. Reading a web page from like 2009 or something I saw some pictures of stuff from "Norm Nelsons estate", so it caused me to think probably not.

I don't think everybodys favorite thread closer passed away that long ago.


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## LiftdT4R

Great idea for a thread! I'll add some info here but I'm still researching a lot of stuff Maglite related and otherwise. Maglites were and are my main focus though. It's a shame there's not more info out there about all of these lights because they are affordable and interesting to collect. 

I don't believe that Norm Nelson was on this forum although Don Keller was briefly.

I will say that a good three quarters of the "cop lights" from 1968 until 1990 had some level of involvement from Don Keller which is why they all happen to made in California as Don was a LA deputy sheriff prior to his involvement in the flashlight industry. It's easier to list the lights he was not involved with. ABTOMAT is the best resource for Kel-Lites but I've tried to contact him a few times as I've had some interesting recent finds that I just need more info on but I haven't had any luck. 

I think a good start would be to create a list of the lights that fall into this era (1968 to 1990). Off the top of my head I have:

Kel-Lite, Stud-Lite
Tru Grit (really a Kel-Lite Knockoff)
Gem-Lite (really a Kel-Lite Knockoff)
Maglite, Vari-Beam
Bianchi 
LA Screw, GT Price (LA Screw was bought by GT Price and both companies produced an identical Code 4 model)
Pro Light
Streamlight (mainly purchased Kel-Lite designs)

Anyway, I'll make my contribution about the brief history I have from 1973 to 1980. 

On Mag's website they claim to have been in the business since 1955. In these early days Tony was producing 30mm artillery shells on a government contract for the most part. In about 1970 he started producing parts for Kel-Lite due to his close proximity to their headquarters. Tony was mostly an overflow supplier, filling orders when sales were high and parts supply was tight. Don Keller left Kel-Lite in 1973 or 1974 after being essentially forced out by Norm Nelson, someone who he brought in to help with sales, marketing, and supply chain expertise. Norm came from Per-Lux which was a truck lighting distributor and why Kel-Lite created a Stud-Lite that was marketed towards truckers. Don then bounced around from at least Bianchi and Pro Light until 1979 when he partnered with Tony Maglica to start Maglite. Don used Tony as a supplier for years so it was a natural step and they started producing the Maglite.

An interesting note is that all D cell aluminum flashlights were originally made out of 1 1/4" nominal, schedule 40, aluminum irrigation pipe. In fact if you look this pipe up, the wall thickness, ID, and OD will all match exactly to any early D cell Kel-Lite, Maglite, etc.. The reason batteries have extra space in older D Cell lights has nothing to do with cardboard cells or anything like that it was simply due to the fact that they were being produced from relatively inexpensive, already available aluminum irrigation pipe. It was not until 1984 when Mag Instrument introduced the Mag Charger that any flashlight company invested in aluminum extrusion to make a more optimized tube shape for the D Cell aluminum light. In 1992 this was then transitioned into the now current Maglite. 

I'll save the trouble on looking up these pipe specs. They can be found here: http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=73&step=2&top_cat=60

Since that's probably more than anyone ever wanted to know about 70s and 80s flashlights I'll post a pic which is prob why everyone came here. It's one of the most prized lights in my collection. It's a 5C 1st Gen Kel-Lite with the very rare judo end cap that was from the man himself:


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## bykfixer

Thank you!! Good read. 

GT Price was famous for the right angle TL-122, boy/girl Scout lights and MX-991's, yet little is written about their straight tube lights (or at least that I can find). 

Another member here, Bill Utely wrote a book called "flashlights", which covers Eveready and a whole bunch of companies early on up to 1980. 
(Photo of cover removed: thanks photo-bukit)
Copies are still available. Pm me for info how to get one.
He spoke of a 2nd book of 1980 forward at one point but when I spoke to him he said "nah, too many other irons in the fire".

Another one I found on eBay fills in a few gaps as well.
(photo link being held hostage removed)
A blue cover with a yellow beam coming from a Donald Duck flashlight it's called "Collecting Flashlights (with value guide)

There's lots of stuff written about lights from those early days, but not a lot is written about the "California cop light" years.

Thanks for your input Lift'd. Makes perfect sense.


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## LiftdT4R

Thanks!! The second book I'd really like to get a hold of at some point. I think that's the one with a couple pages on Maglite, right?

GT Price, LA Screw, and Code 4 always confused me because I'm fairly sure they all produced the same design but one company seemed to exit and another one entered the market a pretty fast rate. Your info makes me think GT Price is the oldest and then came either LA Screw or Code 4. I think Code 4 may even be just the LA Screw brand. Either way Brinkmann ultimately wound up buying this design and still produces it to this day albeit in an LED version. I've included pics below of a 70s Code 4 and a current Brinkmann. Neither of these lights are mine.


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## sgt253

In another, now closed thread, the discussion of LA Screw Products lights was in progress. One of our members EdTor, posted he was the L.A. Screw Products manufacturers rep. and also their distributor from 1979. He sold thousands of Smoke Cutters & Code Four flashlights. He bought the Qualtech (Luma Tech, Pharo Tech) factory which converted them and other heavy duty lights like Kel-Lite, Maglite, etc… to rechargeable lights.
I have very recently spoken to Ed. Ed has given me his permission to relay the information that he and I spoke of regarding LA Screw Products lights and the other police style lights he is knowledgeable of that are pertinent to this thread.



*Are the chargers currently being produced?* Yes (and no): They could be if needed but I have inventory on hand, even though I still make sure to go completely over each one so 'out the door' still takes a little time. There's no "Next Day" available.
*In the case of the LA Screw Products flashlight, are there any replacement parts available?* Yes, lots. I had a chance to read (some of) the posts and reflectors seem to be wanted. I have plenty of the original plastic and a metal replacement we (Qualtech) developed for the hot 10 Watt halogens as they melted the original reflectors. (BTW: The plastic reflector that LA Screw supplied as original in all their lights was never supplied with a bulb retainer though the lens does have threads for one. [I think they shopped that reflector from a already existing source.] The 'idea' they promoted was it allowed faster replacement in the field, which it did BUT... required holding the light vertical. Setting the bulb squarely in the reflector and KEEPING it vertical while screwing it back together. Otherwise, the bulb shorts across both contacts - NOT GOOD! I also read that lenses including the 're-reflector lens LA Screw used on the Smoke-Cutter is wanted. There should be no problem with them either. (BTW: that re-relector lens is the ONLY difference between their Smoke-Cutter and their police Code Four, besides the red anodizing color of course.) Qualtech also produced a batch of MagLite lenses equipped with a re-reflector which works well in smoke too. I still have stock. And no to someone who commented, Mag & Code-4 lenses are not the same diameter.


*Do you have any Kel Lite parts?* - Yes, Lots.
*Do you have any complete lights for sale i.e Smoke Cutters, Code Fours, Kel Lites,*_ :_ Yes but be specific
*old Mag Lites?*_:_ Some, if you mean new MagLites of an "old" style? Please, more specific here too.
“Off point, but I also read on that forum that some think LA Screw's light products; Code Four, Smoke Cutter, Medical & others were from the '70s. I'd have to look up when they actually first began but they were BIG through all of the '80's. And one more thing; Brinkman was famous for stealing industry concepts.

Hope this helps, and feel free to share with the CPF people if you want.”

Thank you to Ed for this information.


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## LiftdT4R

Wow, awesome info!! It's great to have this all in one place before it is lost to time. This will certainly help collectors out quite a bit. A lot of times I think about what the collectors market will look like in 10, 20 or even 30 years and how rare or desirable certain lights will be. Some are hard to come by now and I imagine collectors then will be looking back on these threads for info.


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## bykfixer

(link being of photo of Beavis n Butthead rockin out held hostage by photo-bukit removed)
Holy Head-bob sgt!!!! 
Great stuff.

The whole way to work this morning I was envisioning an LA Sherrif with a 5 gallon hat lightly whacking a chunk of alluminum pipe against his palm thinking "hmmm, this would make a pretty good flashlight someday"....

Now I cannot comment on Brinkmann stealing ideas except to say that _some of the_ items rumored to be stolen were Don Kellers ideas to begin with but he was the kinda guy who said "hey lets try this" then the idea was credited somewhere else. That info came from more than 1 source I've spoken with on unrelated conversations that eventually involved Don Keller's influence at many-a light making business. Now post Don Keller Brinkmann? That's a different animal altogether.


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## bykfixer

Here's one that was made for 1 year.... 1987. Packaging says 1986 but the story is the 50k or so SigmaLites ever made were sold in 1987. 
Lots of hype took place with the company Lite-Tek but things never really panned out.





The 2aa Sigma Lite signature edition.

There was a 2x triple A, a 2x double A bendy head and a 2x double A minimag (but better) style slated to be the next big thing and frankly they were pretty nice. Nice heavy weight parts n pieces and a novel idea... a tail cap switch. Find your beam and keep it that way. They were the answer to the shortcomings of the 2aa California Cop light called the minimag. Don Keller was also a player but did so from behind the scenes.Basically the lights did not pan out and that's too bad because they were real nice.
They came with a spare bulb... good luck finding those...
But mini mag and other bi-pins of that size will work. 

My example belonged to a Frenso California police officer.


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## LiftdT4R

Very nice!! This was a Surefire before Surefire was even a thought! It's a shame Sigmalite went under really. From what I understand Don Keller got into these as a lead engineer and head of marketing but the partners he had did not know the ins and out of financing. They did not anticipate how long it would take to turn a profit and then had to fold after the first year. Had they been able to hold out longer people would likely be modding Sigmalites today instead of Surefires. I have some interesting Sigmalites coming that I'll post and I have some great Sigmalite literature as well. A very rare find and truly a part of cop light history. Hard to believe 1986 is vintage but it is!!!

EDIT: Forgot to mention that by the serial this is likely on of the last lights produced. There were about 100,000 units otal prodcued bu this includes AAAs and AAs so your is likely one of the last. It's easy to see where some of the design cues for the Legend came from.


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## LiftdT4R

Here are the couple of Sigmalite ads I have:











I think the majority of the ones produced were AA style. The AAAs were very few and far between. The Flex Lights were even more rare with only about 100 or so produced. The AAs and AAAs also had a Kershaw knives special edition. I have a very rare AA on the way and I'll post pics of it as soon as it arrives.


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## bykfixer

I wondered if the 786 in the 00078658 indicated the 'born on' month and year... 

Anyway it's a nice n heavy light. Feels like it's made out of brass or something.

And yeah, the rubberized sleeve is pretty much like those late model Brinkmann Legends. 

I'll put a Lamptronix bulb (F16 dash bulb) in it for the unique swirl that thick filament'd bulb puts out. It was made to be placed inside a lens'd housing to provide light to guages. When aimed at a wall the beam looks like a well defined hurricane on a weather channel radar map.


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## LiftdT4R

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that but that makes more sense seeing how few lights were produced. I will let you know when the ones I purchased come in.


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## bykfixer

^^ Or perhaps it's just coincidence... the 786 thing... 

Either or it's the future centerpiece around an upcoming display of 2aa flashlights that were competition to the mini mag incan.


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## LiftdT4R

I meant to ask ya too because I'm sure you'd know. Do you know what 2AA lights were around before the Mini Mag? I couldn't find too much.


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## bykfixer

LiftdT4R said:


> I meant to ask ya too because I'm sure you'd know. Do you know what 2AA lights were around before the Mini Mag? I couldn't find too much.



Lots of penlight variations were out there since at least the 1930's as companies were using magnifier tip'd #222/224 bulbs and formerly known as vest pocket batteries we now call the double A. I'm unaware if the mini mag introduced bi-pin bulbs but figure they must've already been around since Tony never reportedly sued all those companies doing bi-pins. 
I suppose at some point BrightStar, or Rayovac etc did some PR based 2x aa's but all I've seen pre mini mag are penlights in the 2x aa flavor.

(Edit: Discovered info added; Tekna used N cells and a special sized 2xN sized cell for their small [read pocket sized] dive lights that were reportedly used by some police as backups)


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## LiftdT4R

Awesome info, thanks!! I always assumed that if there were 2AAs that they were mostly a novelty. Would that be a fair assumption? Hard to believe that all 9 lumens of the Mini Mag really changed the game on AA lights. I guess it's mainly because it was so rugged and reliable. You just don't see that in the earlier lights. I mean I have Mini Mags that are 33 years old, were tossed around for years and needed little more than the contacts cleaned.


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## bykfixer

Scooped up an LA Screw 2 part 5D this morning at 5:15am before my morning coffee. Wasn't wearing my glasses either so it was a nice surprise when I saw pix later with my eyes open and glasses on...

Seems it's a non working item, but It'll give me something to add to the restore vintage flashlight thread.

[photobucket.com holding link to pic of the light hostage so it was removed]

Edit: After re-reading sgt's awesome post (#7) it seems the bulb fastener is not missing, as LA Screw apparently chose not to use one as this would facilitate faster field change. Bravo!! :thumbsup: 
Faster field change ideas are cool.


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## LiftdT4R

Bykfixer, I have a spoiler alert here so if you want a challenging, interesting project, DON'T READ BELOW.







I just got a non-working one working again tonight. Heck of a coincidence! Let me tell you, they are a challenge but no fun. Half of the inside of this thing is cardboard so I can see why they are relatively rare now and didn't put up much competition against the Mags and Kels. If this thing were ever to get wet on the inside it would be toast! The contacts also have to be just right and make perfect contact otherwise no dice.

Shown below is my best attempt at a schematic of the light. Item highlighted in red need to make contact for the positive side of the circuit to be complete and items in yellow need to be connected for the negative side of the circuit to be complete. The two problem spots when I did mine were the two tabs that connect to the outside (negative side) of the bulb and the two tabs that need to make contact with the body. These tabs can be bent but be careful, they seem very flimsy.











So if I can I'd like to hijack your thread for a second and make it the Vintage California Aviator's Light Thread. These really are beautiful lights when they're done. This is a GT Price Code 4 as is shown on the end cap and the body. This one only throws about 10 lumens, probably less than most Mini Mags but this light was designed that way. The bulb is completely closed within a housing and a red filter.
















This was done because red light will not deteriorate night vision and so that there would be no glare from direct light. Commercial pilots favored this setup for reading instrument gauges and working in a cockpit late at night. The loss of night vision from a white light could be catastrophic if they were trying to land safely. The 10 lumens is plenty bright for close quarters like a **** pit. This one was carried by an American Airlines pilot who retired after 35 years. He thinks he acquired it in the mid 1970s when he started his career but was unsure of the exact date. This light saw a lot of action and interesting takeoffs and landings but survived in very good overall condition.











SGT, do you or anyone know when GT Price turned to LA Screw or were they the same company? Any idea of the age of this light? Also, if by any chance you could get the seals for the reflector from your parts connect I would be greatly appreciative. These have long dry rotted out.

/HIJACK


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## ven

Mr fixer has the coolest threads, great info and pics guys..........love it!

This is a cool light Mike..........


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## bykfixer

Edit: quote from Ed Tor added to clarify that some Code 4 lights were modified to be used as traffic wands. It seems there was an LA Screw/Qualtech mod to some Vare-Beams that also made it to a few GT Price owned Code 4's. 

_Liftd's 'Smoke Cutter' is NOT a SMOKE CUTTER. That is a VariProbe head assm. (with a small piece missing where you push it in and pull it out that now only has a screw.) The VariProbe red center mechanism does block a lot of the 'scatter light' you need when walking in the dark but it does NOT re-reflect it into the main reflector like the SMOKE CUTTER.

I REALLY hate to disagree with you guys, really do, but all I can do it tell you what I learned or was told by the mfg. as their rep. dealer and fellow mfg. The VariProbe attachment was marketed as a 'built-in' traffic baton although nearly everyone in the field recognized it for it's OBVIOUS use as Lift'd detailed; preserving night vision, I'm not sure LA Screw ever promoted it as such. There were two versions: The first one was a threaded piece of red plastic that screwed up and down. The latter one pushed in and pulled out using an O'ring for resistance._
(Note: I changed the personal name to the user name where applicable to avoid violating a policy here at CPF)
End edit




ven said:


> Mr fixer has the coolest threads, great info and pics guys..........love it!
> 
> This is a cool light Mike..........



Neato! A Ven sighting in the California Cop light thread. 
You know me dude, I like yacking about old flashlights. 

But I would like to say this thread was not intended to be _*my*_ thread. No it was intended for those members who collect flashlights from an era that led to much higher standards in regards to the ordinary flashlight. All of this was taking place about the time Frank Nastasio was adapting the urethane roller skate wheel to skateboards. America was going through a rough time with that Vietnam war raging on and there were a number of other culteral changes taking place. 
It was also a time I was growing up on the east coast of the US and all things California were out of reach of most folks... chrome engine parts, mag wheels, skateboards and California Cop lights. Now that I'm an old geezer I get to click on Buy it Now and bring a small piece of 1969 through 1979 into my den through a chunk of modern day fire on a stick that could bash out an oncoming perps headlight and still blind hippy hoodlums smoking grass behind the local high school. What a great time it was. 

I'm not alone in that stoke so that's why I created this thread. When sgt placed the LA Screw rep's comments I felt like "yeah... this was what this thread was for." 

Now that Lift'd has been bitten by the collecting bug of lights besides his awesome Mag collection the thread became even richer with great info that history has largely failed to write down. Well here is the history book. Available only at Candle Power Forums. 

Diverting to the aviator theme, while drifting towards "good doubles A's before the minimag".... the JustRite Pilot Penlight. 
Invented in about 1940 and perfected over time I like to call it the Prelude to PK's A2 Aviator by SureFire.

(Links to pics were interupted so I removed them)
Top is WW2 era. Bottom Korean War era.
The original was a plastic bodied number with old school sliding metal parts using a simple construction and #222 magnifyer tip'd bulbs.

By the 50's it was all alluminum with a twisty tailcap'd switch with signal ability.
White or red beam was achieved with a sliding switch that slid a red filter across the #222 or away from it. 

Oh, and JustRite was a Chicago area company for what that's worth...


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## sgt253

Stay tuned ladies and gentlemen there is more on the way...


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## bykfixer

Until another epic post by sgt:

The 5D LA Screw light arrived.
This thing is a great flashlight. Holy cow!! Frankly it was nicer than I expected.
Not mint, but definitely not a beater either. A few nicks in the finish were all this one has wrong with it.

First thing I noticed is the switch mechanism separates from the body. Then I noticed this particular one does not hold to on. Don't know if it's broke or if it's designed that way. You can pull back, push forward or push into the body to get light. ...

Brb...
Ok I'm back from helping Mrs. Fixer get groceries..

So anyway my thought was this light can be a direct drive if that's your thing. Twisty head on/off.
Works like a charm and gives you a stubby 2D or use the 3 cell extension so... you can have a 3 cell, 2 cell, stubby direct drive or a really bright 5 cell. 






The uber reliable meat in the sandwich disk that acts as a bridge between the bulb and batteries. I won't show close ups but suffice to say if you keep it clean it should last a lifetime.

The bulb slips into the reflector and will stay put without a fastener. But it's best to replace the bulb vertically. What I liked was it saves seconds and adds reliability by removing a part that can fail in time.
(Link to pic removed as it was being held hostage)
The lens is plastic. This one cleaned up near perfect with no haze and no discernable scratches. 
This shiney thing cleans up the beam nicely but gives a nice hot spot too. 

Hopefully sgt can speak to the LA Screw rep Ed and get the skinny on what that switch is or isn't supposed to do.
(It's a toggler that was not popular so not many actually went onto Code 4's)
Lots of proprietory-ness to this one. But a very impressive combination all adds up to a real nice tool that was built to hold up to a lot of abuse. (Edit: the no water tight provisions part removed as this light uses gaskets instead of o-rings. I had previously stated incorrectly that this light needs o-rings. Sorry for any issues caused)


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## sgt253

Here is some additional information from Ed Tor, a former LA Screw Rep:

"Some history as I remember: L.A. Screw Products Inc. was the first company name to my knowledge. At least that's what it was in '79. They started as a machine shop specializing in contract production using mostly screw machines, a type of metal lathe. Tony Maglica and LA Screw followed a similar evolution into flashlight production. Code Four was always just the product name of LA Screws' black police light. They also made the red Smoke Cutter, silver Medical and (short-lived) gold Sea Probe. The difference with the Medical (for EMS) besides the silver color was a patterned reflector that produced a smooth beam with no 'hot' or 'dark' spots long before Streamlights lamp/reflector module did. The Sea Probe was certified to, I think, a 300' depth for divers but it was not different otherwise than the Code Four except color. It was short-lived (I think) because the market was too small though LA Screw blamed it on divers not carefully tightening the sections against their flat seals. This was true too I'm sure considering their modular lights had four or five seals to tighten 'just right.' L.A. Screw only made 'D' size lights (with one exception) in 2 cell through 7 cell. They only turned 2, 3 and 4 cell barrel sections because of their unique modular design which allowed them to couple a 2 & 3 cell to make a 5 cell, two 3 cells for a 6 cell and a 3 and 4 cell for the 7 cell light. This kept the modular switch near the balance point on the longer, heavier lights. Police officers who wrenched their wrists using the larger lights for hours with the switch at the head from Kel-lite , Maglite, etc. recognized this was a real value. The switch, also being a separate module, could be completely removed in the unlikely event of failure and the light screwed back together to turn it on. By just backing one section off by 'a hair' would then turn it off in the same way the MiniMag works (maybe that's where they got the idea). This "Fail-Safe" feature, as the U.S.A.F. deemed it, was a major reason it was accepted for their Security Police use (along with Qualtech's charger, metal reflector mod. & 10W halogen bulb mod.) after extensive testing at Wright Patterson AFB and others. The one exception to all 'D' sized lights was a 2 cell (and I think a 3 cell) 'C' sized baton & light. The baton was wood affixed into an aluminum piece that flared in size to fit a std. 'D' sized switch module, then reduced back down to the aluminum, knurled handle which 'C' sized batteries. The reflector was a std. one for 'D' size but turned down and fit into the face cap. The 'head' maintained the same size as the barrel. The light output (from a PR-2) with next to no reflector was abysmal."


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## bykfixer

So that explains why the switch was between the pair of barrels when the light arrived. 





(Note it arrived with the 3 cell barrel up front)(I prefer the 2 cell barrel up front for better balance)

Thanks for the added info sgt. 

(Broken links to pix removed showing the light vs Maglites)

Using the tailcap in this setup does not turn the light on/off but rotating the head does in cases where only one barrel segment is used.

Correction to my other post to indicate this light has 'gaskets' at connection points. I missed those earlier. But sgt's post caused to take a closer look. They are thin, yet very flexible. Between these and the gasket around the lens (if everything is nice n clean) I can definitely see this light being very water-tight. 
Whoever owned it took real good care of it.


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## LiftdT4R

Wow!! That is some very awesome info!! This is the kind of info that would def be lost to time if it weren't for threads like these. Do you know if Ed has any pictures of these lights? I've never seen a Medical or a Sea Probe but I would love to. I have seen Smoke Cutters and Code 4s. Also does he have an idea when LA Screw sold their designs to GT Price? Thanks again for the great info!


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## sgt253

More info from our CPF member EdTor about LA Screw Products flashlights:

Some corrections and additions:

1. I wrote "The one exception to all 'D' sized lights was a 2 cell (and I think a 3 cell) 'C' sized baton & light." I should have wrote; The one exception to all 'D' sized lights was a limited 'C' sized light family which included a 2 cell 'C' sized light made as the handle of a 'standard' police baton & ALSO what they called their "Back Up Light." Their Back Up Light was made, initially anyway, in 2, 3, 5, and 7 'C' cell models and all had a leather lanyard at the tailcap as standard. The switch was also in the tailcap. Again, these were the same small diameter end to end so L.A. Screw cut down the reflector to near nothing which produced a horrible light output. Maybe that's why they slipped my mind -- they really had next to no market.
2. I also forgot to mention that L.A. Screw had a blue anodized light in their 'D' line-up called the Power Probe. It was the same as the black Code Four except blue for non-law enforcement markets.
3. I also wrongly implied you could turn off a switchless Code Four by "just backing one section off by 'a hair'" True, but that "one section" has to be the head, not the facecap but the head. That's because you are backing off from the Shock Plate Assembly (also called the Contact Plate) and its little contacts at the outer edge that transfer ground to the base of the bulb.
1. When I wrote previously my mind was influenced by the fact that Mag does this differently and by loosening its tailcap would kill the light. Not so with Code Four. This is because Mag chose to machine their threads first THEN anodize (which is an insulator) and that required them to machine off the anodizing from the face (butt?) of their barrels and mating surface on their endcap in what is called a 'second operation.'. Most Mag owners learn quickly that the tailcap MUST be tight or no light. Alternately, L.A. Screw anodized first THEN machined their threads in a second operation. That made the entire surface area of the threads electrically conductive. This also allowed the use of those flat cylinder seals.
4. Shock Plate Assembly - Yes, the disk is made from some highly compressed, super strong material but to merely call it "cardboard" implies something FAR less that it's true nature. In 38 years (Yes, I still use them) I've never seen (or heard) of these swelling or responding to moisture as you would expect cardboard to do. I have seen, though rarely, these plates get bowed from the impact of batteries when the light is dropped. The hammer effect of just 2 'D's dropped face first on even a carpeted floor will crush the end of a PR bulb. The Shock (Contact) Plate is well named.
1. One word of caution: on the front of this Contact Plate the positive (center) and negative (outer) contacts come VERY close together as they must to mate up with the bottom of the bulb. Several things can make them touch and short the battery -- NOT GOOD!
1. The plate getting bowed or domed (as above)
2. Using a bulb retainer on our (Qualtech) metal reflector mod. NOT from us. This is because the retainer pushes down on the negative plate as much or more than the base of the PR bulb and works against it making contact. It also deforms that whole U shaped negative contact and makes it short-out against the positive. That is WHY Qualtech turned down the shoulder of our bulb retainers to prevent that, but others supplied the mod. too, like Brinkman, without turning it down.
3. One of the little negative contacts (on the battery side) mentioned above (3.0) might snap off. Now you only need one of those contacts for electrical ground BUT they also mechanically hold the whole negative plate to the Shock Plate. With only one the plate could move and short against the positive.
1. Shock Plate contacts shorting:
1. On an old L.A. Screw made double-sided switch -- the internal contacts were so heavy all you might loose was one or both springs (tailcap & switch) as they heated up and collapsed. Both replaceable easily and cheap (then).
1. This actually caused Qualtech the most problem as our conversion to rechargeable endcap spring sets deep into a Lexan insulating sleeve. When the spring overheated the sleeve melted into it. The conversion endcap had to be rebuilt or replaced.
2. If contacts short on the newer one-sided button module the switch will 'pop' like a fuse. I think G.T. Price made the switch (pardon the pun) to a cheap, JUDCO brand switch and fit it into the 'original' switch module. JUDCO supplies millions of these little DC switches in the automotive and other industries. The most familiar ones might be the dome and map light switches in cars from the '90s onward. Initially, when G.T. were talking about this switch switch  we reminded them that cops want a blink option. They didn't even get the blink mode right with first ones blinking OFF from ON.


You asked about the time line and relationship between L.A. Screw & G.T. Price.

* All the before mentioned lights were manufactured by Police Equipment Div. of L.A. Screw Products Inc. since at least 1978 and probably earlier. They were at 8401 Loch Lomond Dr., Pico Rivera, CA
* Qualtech was founded in 1975 by its inventor Mr. Onno Prinsze in Scottsdale AZ. Sales began in 1976 converting 'C' & 'D' sized Kel-lites and Maglites. They also starting producing their own rechargeable named Pharo-tech.
* George Price and his 'point man' (national sales mgr.?) Ed Hecock of G.T. Price Products Inc. entered into the 'scene' in some capacity as early as 1985. They may not have owned it at this time. They were then at 2223 East 37th St. L.A. CA.
* By 1991 literature shows G.T. Price Products Inc. as the mfg. of Code Four and the others lights. They were then at 2320 Valencia Dr., Fullerton, CA


----------



## Offgridled

This is a great thread thx mr fixer [emoji106]


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## bykfixer

More epic epic-ness! Thank you sgt. 

The light I acquired has what appears to be a plastic (non cardboard) material. It reminds me of a carbon fiber or fiberglass melted into a solid mass. Perhaps a resin those items are made of... seemingly plenty sturdy and plenty heat tolerant. 

The contact plate (shock plate) and both sides of the switch assembly are made of this material. 

Either I'm just missing it or my light does not have Code 4 on it anywhere. 

Now for the switch switch: 
Did they appear the same Don/Ed or was there a difference in appearance/operation
post switch switch?
(Wow how many times can you repeat a word in a sentence and it actually works? lol)


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## irongate

All I can say -wow -what a wealth of information and knowledge!:twothumbs


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## archimedes

Sorry to jump in here, but @sgt253 could you please clarify the exact source of this information from a second party .... Is there some reason this other CPF member is not posting about this directly ?

It may be fine, but more details are needed with regard to Rule 12. Please feel free to PM me or other staff, if necessary or appropriate, in this matter.

Thanks !


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## bykfixer

See post #7 please... near the top.


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## archimedes

bykfixer said:


> See post #7 please... near the top.



Ok, noted (and PMs received), thanks for clarifying that.

By the way, @EdTor is welcome and encouraged to post here directly ... his contributions of important and valuable historical information are certainly appreciated.


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## bykfixer

A new arrival today. Another Don Keller company. Pro Light. (5D size)

It arrived with a 4D Maglite
Both arrived in really rough shape, like they were found in the trunk of a car at a junkyard or something... and the trunk was full of water... and the batteries had been left in them for decades. 

The Pro Light was made after Don Keller left Kel Light. They made several D sized lights and some plastic rechargeables. Well made, innovative cop lights circa 1975-ish. 

Wife wants to buy me a steak for supper, so I'll be back to add more. Until then.... some pix...
(Edit: Added captions and verbage under photos next day)
Plastic reflector and a plastic lens with protruding rings have me curious of what the beam will look like with the PR-12 bulb.
Looking at all of the rust and crud on the outside that shows me these were pretty dawg-gone water tight. 

Came with a Holland made PR-12. 
It's a generic bulb with Holland stamped on it. Many an American company used Holland made bulbs in the 70's. Usually Norelco from my experience. They produced a much nicer beam than the GE etc of the time. By the 70's the Phoebus Cartel thing (google light bulb conspiracy) had disbanded and Norelco was building some nice bulbs. Is this original? I do not know, but I do know they were very common back then. 

The reflector and lens were glued together
The way it 'yellow'd' over time it appears an Elmers type of glue was used. They came apart easy enough to affirm that thought. Being there is no gasket I'm supposing it was a water tight thing.
The lens was scratch free. It cleaned up real nice. Another testiment to the durability of the lights. The reflector is perfect. No peeling what-so-ever

The metal underneath the crud appears to be an alloy of some sort with alloy rivets fastening it to the body. All of this crud is a definite road block in the conduit of electricity. 


I really like the guard rails along the sides of the switch to prevent accidental turn on. This one gets stuck at about 50% toward on. It can be forced to on. If I cannot resolve that the switch from a B-Lite will work. Looks are different but all of the dimensions are the same. 

Like the LA Screw mentioned above, it has a quick change bulb setup.
No fastener to take up time, but Pro Light can be 1 up'd over the LA Screw... with a slight pinch of the spring when you pluck the retainer out of the reflector the PR base stays in the spring. Allows bulb change in a horizontal position where the LA Screw should be at least near vertical. 
The Mag has gouges all over the body where somebody put the kung-fu grip via metal vice at some point. It's still round thank goodness. But between the rust, the funk and the overall damage to the outside this one will probably be a parts light or perhaps a storage container disguised as a really ugly flashlight... a piggy bank perhaps. 

Lift'd spoke of TM vs R vs panther logo in the rare Maglite thread (page 7 & 8 iirc) which would put this one about 89-92. Nothing special, but it's the oldest Mag D in my collection. The bezel aint in bad shape so if it will disassemble from the head w/o damage I'll try it on my Malkoff'd green body 3D light. 

I have other lights in the restore pipeline ahead of the Pro Light but curiosity about the lens and potential B-Lite switch use may end up causing this one to cut in line...




I sent the lights to another member to restore so the "after" pix will show up someday.

Broken links to pix and comments about them removed.


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## sgt253

They will be looking great once bykfixer puts his magic on them...:twothumbs


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## irongate

Mt Fixer -yes rough shape -yuck 
Take the steak while you can and enjoy the meal with your Lady.
Back to the lights-yes you have your work cut out for you on those baby's- in time!


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## bykfixer

Man-o-man am I stuffed. Ribs, grilled shrimp, mashed taters and sweet tea. Life is good.

So while I was gone I did some reading. Don Keller and Kel-Lite cofounder Tom Gratner both left Kel-Lite around the same time. In '73 they started Pro Light. Pro Light reportedly built the first rechargeable flashlights. Apparently they began as modified tail cap'd lights and in time a dedicated rechargeable light was developed. History shows the Streamlight SL20 being the first, but like Tesla not getting credit for inventing the radio, Pro Light is not the name used when folks speak of the first rechargeables. Apparently Kel-Lite did a rechargeable mod around those same times. So it may have been Norm Nelsons Kel-Lite that was first to do so... I'm sooooo confused right now...

I'm pretty fuzzy on the details, the specs and lineup Pro Light had at the time, but by 1979 Don was working at Maglite. Somewhere during the Pro Light period Don helped John Bianchi do some flashlights as well. B-Lites. We call them Bianchis.


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## Offgridled

Your livin life mf fixer so deserved my friend..


----------



## bykfixer

Thanx OG.

We just celebrated 10 years of a blissful marriage. 
One night two people who vowed they'd never date again were in a 7-11 convenince store at 2am. One was the manager, the other a roadway inspector working nearby. I was getting a cup of coffee and she was wiping down the counter. Nearby were about 6 police officers comparing stories of their evening. I whispered to her "guess this is a bad time to announce this is a stickup?" She whispered back "even worse time to announce we're out of donuts." Soon after we went fishing one day and the rest has been one fun filled day after another. 

Now a bit about the Pro-Light




All plastic except for conductors and the reflector.
This one was reportedly made about the time America was celebrating it's Bicentenial. Post Nam and Nixon the country was in a pretty good mood despite a down turned economy. 200 years of freedom from tyranny? What's not to like about that? Disco was hitting the younger scene like an atomic bomb and Farrah posters were hanging on millions of teenage boys bedroom walls around this time. And some crazy kids near LA were riding skateboards, bicycles and roller skates on swimming pool walls when the waves sucked. 

This light has a proprietary cord that did not come with this light. Dratz!!

But not to worry. Thanks to some folks long, long ago and a great search feature here at CPF it was discovered the light works great using 3 D cells and a Streamlight SL15 module works perfectly when the day arrives that the bulb blew. This one still has the original.

Simplicity of the day.
The bulb is attached permanently to the reflector. A pair of pins protrude through the reflector and slide into a connector point.....

The switch is near identical in appearance to the one on the Pro Light 5D mentioned above. (Looks like a B-Lite switch)

Being it's all plastic, if you choose to use 3 D to double A adapters and 3 double A alkalines this is one light weight cop light. I say alkalines because the bulb assembly is really scarce so there is no way Ima chance the insta-poof with lithiums or rechargeables. 

That's it for now except to say the rechargeable PLC20 has a real nice beam with a bunch of spill and throws like an old Maglite.





Pix with broken links and associated comments removed.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Ohh man those are some awesome lights!! Congrats on your anniversary too!! I thought you were done bidding on that prolight. Lol, I got busy at work and didn't get a chance to put in a bid before it ended. Looks like you'll have a nice little project out of it though, should be fun. I'm always interested in seeing the many different ways lights are designed. It looks similar to the Kel-Lites but with a different bulb retainer.

I also stand corrected on the durability of the GT Price and LA Screw lights. The innards are much sturdier than cardboard. I'm still not a huge fan of the contact style but they are great lights. 

Sgt, thanks again for the info. You have me on the lookout for some of those long out of production models now. If Ed has any pics or literature that would be an amazing addition to this thread. And give me a little more info as to what I'm searching for, lol. You guys do not help my collecting addiction!!

i have a couple rare police lights waiting for me when I get home. One of which I know for sure hasn't been seen here yet so I'll stop slacking off and try to make some additions to the thread next week! Have a great weekend guys!


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## bykfixer

They were both pretty rough. The Mag makes that Vare-Beam look NIB in comparision. 

The Pro-Light has hope but some custom work may be in order.


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## LiftdT4R

My kinda project!! I love rough lights. The ones in good shape are fun for 10 min and then they sit on the shelf. That Vari-Beam I almost ruined 5 times before getting it back into good running shape. I actually learned a good couple of lessons too if I do another. Lol, it was a roller coaster for a whole week. I'm not a gambling man and I might be a bit of a dork so that was a gamble enough for me. Now I look at it on the shelf and think wow what an effort. If ya need parts for that Pro Light gimme a shout. I might know a guy that knows a guy.


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## dano

Cool history...Surprised with how much "Influence" (or maybe Don Keller's innovations) were used by Streamlight: The mini bi-pin bulbs, the Pro-Light charging sleeve set-up, the integrated bulb-reflector...

And, as a side note, this whole thread is making me feel old...as I still carry a full size Streamlight Sl-20x on duty...but modernized with a Malkoff drop in and NiMH battery stick...


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## bykfixer

This is cool. A Dano sighting. 

It has been said that Kel-Lite designs were incorparated into Streamlight products when Streamlight acquired Kel-Lite. But how a Pro-Light type charger sleeve found its way to the SL20? Well... Perhaps it was just different enough to not be a stolen idea. 


Dawg-gonnit now I want an SL20x...


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## sgt253

sgt253 said:


> More info from our CPF member EdTor about LA Screw Products flashlights:
> 
> Some corrections and additions:
> 
> 1. I wrote "The one exception to all 'D' sized lights was a 2 cell (and I think a 3 cell) 'C' sized baton & light." I should have wrote; The one exception to all 'D' sized lights was a limited 'C' sized light family which included a 2 cell 'C' sized light made as the handle of a 'standard' police baton & ALSO what they called their "Back Up Light." Their Back Up Light was made, initially anyway, in 2, 3, 5, and 7 'C' cell models and all had a leather lanyard at the tailcap as standard. The switch was also in the tailcap. Again, these were the same small diameter end to end so L.A. Screw cut down the reflector to near nothing which produced a horrible light output. Maybe that's why they slipped my mind -- they really had next to no market.
> 2. I also forgot to mention that L.A. Screw had a blue anodized light in their 'D' line-up called the Power Probe. It was the same as the black Code Four except blue for non-law enforcement markets.
> 3. I also wrongly implied you could turn off a switchless Code Four by "just backing one section off by 'a hair'" True, but that "one section" has to be the head, not the facecap but the head. That's because you are backing off from the Shock Plate Assembly (also called the Contact Plate) and its little contacts at the outer edge that transfer ground to the base of the bulb.
> 1. When I wrote previously my mind was influenced by the fact that Mag does this differently and by loosening its tailcap would kill the light. Not so with Code Four. This is because Mag chose to machine their threads first THEN anodize (which is an insulator) and that required them to machine off the anodizing from the face (butt?) of their barrels and mating surface on their endcap in what is called a 'second operation.'. Most Mag owners learn quickly that the tailcap MUST be tight or no light. Alternately, L.A. Screw anodized first THEN machined their threads in a second operation. That made the entire surface area of the threads electrically conductive. This also allowed the use of those flat cylinder seals.
> 4. Shock Plate Assembly - Yes, the disk is made from some highly compressed, super strong material but to merely call it "cardboard" implies something FAR less that it's true nature. In 38 years (Yes, I still use them) I've never seen (or heard) of these swelling or responding to moisture as you would expect cardboard to do. I have seen, though rarely, these plates get bowed from the impact of batteries when the light is dropped. The hammer effect of just 2 'D's dropped face first on even a carpeted floor will crush the end of a PR bulb. The Shock (Contact) Plate is well named.
> 1. One word of caution: on the front of this Contact Plate the positive (center) and negative (outer) contacts come VERY close together as they must to mate up with the bottom of the bulb. Several things can make them touch and short the battery -- NOT GOOD!
> 1. The plate getting bowed or domed (as above)
> 2. Using a bulb retainer on our (Qualtech) metal reflector mod. NOT from us. This is because the retainer pushes down on the negative plate as much or more than the base of the PR bulb and works against it making contact. It also deforms that whole U shaped negative contact and makes it short-out against the positive. That is WHY Qualtech turned down the shoulder of our bulb retainers to prevent that, but others supplied the mod. too, like Brinkman, without turning it down.
> 3. One of the little negative contacts (on the battery side) mentioned above (3.0) might snap off. Now you only need one of those contacts for electrical ground BUT they also mechanically hold the whole negative plate to the Shock Plate. With only one the plate could move and short against the positive.
> 1. Shock Plate contacts shorting:
> 1. On an old L.A. Screw made double-sided switch -- the internal contacts were so heavy all you might loose was one or both springs (tailcap & switch) as they heated up and collapsed. Both replaceable easily and cheap (then).
> 1. This actually caused Qualtech the most problem as our conversion to rechargeable endcap spring sets deep into a Lexan insulating sleeve. When the spring overheated the sleeve melted into it. The conversion endcap had to be rebuilt or replaced.
> 2. If contacts short on the newer one-sided button module the switch will 'pop' like a fuse. I think G.T. Price made the switch (pardon the pun) to a cheap, JUDCO brand switch and fit it into the 'original' switch module. JUDCO supplies millions of these little DC switches in the automotive and other industries. The most familiar ones might be the dome and map light switches in cars from the '90s onward. Initially, when G.T. were talking about this switch switch  we reminded them that cops want a blink option. They didn't even get the blink mode right with first ones blinking OFF from ON.
> 
> 
> You asked about the time line and relationship between L.A. Screw & G.T. Price.
> 
> * All the before mentioned lights were manufactured by Police Equipment Div. of L.A. Screw Products Inc. since at least 1978 and probably earlier. They were at 8401 Loch Lomond Dr., Pico Rivera, CA
> * Qualtech was founded in 1975 by its inventor Mr. Onno Prinsze in Scottsdale AZ. Sales began in 1976 converting 'C' & 'D' sized Kel-lites and Maglites. They also starting producing their own rechargeable named Pharo-tech.
> * George Price and his 'point man' (national sales mgr.?) Ed Hecock of G.T. Price Products Inc. entered into the 'scene' in some capacity as early as 1985. They may not have owned it at this time. They were then at 2223 East 37th St. L.A. CA.
> * By 1991 literature shows G.T. Price Products Inc. as the mfg. of Code Four and the others lights. They were then at 2320 Valencia Dr., Fullerton, CA






More from *CPF Member *EdTor regarding LA Screw flashlights:


First a word of thanks for helping me with your reposting. I may post again sometime but I do appreciate your help.

 I wrote, "Initially, when G.T. were talking about this switch switch  we reminded them that cops want a blink option. They didn't even get the blink mode right with first ones blinking OFF from ON."

 More completely: When the G.T. people were talking about this switch switch  with us at Qualtech, we reminded them that cops want a blink option BECAUSE they had already made the change without it, just a straight on/off. Even though they did make that change they didn't even get the blink mode right with those first ones blinking OFF from ON. So there were actually 3 different JUDCO type switches in their single-sided switch modules (that used the same [no hole] switch seal as L.A. Screw started with).

To be sure, when G.T. Price took over production from L.A. Screw quality took a hit. While the lights were never made to the high cosmetic level of Maglite, L.A. Screw still produced a high quality light that outperformed Mag on a few levels. Quality and simplicity were paramount and a good example of that was their original, proprietary two-sided switch. When Price took over, price took over. Machine marks and scratches started to appear on finished product. That whole switch switch was cost driven as was everything else. Though serial numbers continued to be stamped on switch modules, brand name stamping of Code Four, Smoke-Cutter & Power Probe) became inconsistent and later dropped. For collectors, having a light with a part, like a tailcap, stamped L.A. Screw doesn't mean it's from the early period as Price naturally used up existing stock.
 
To replace a Code 4 switch seal it's best to remove the switch module from the light. You must clean out that groove real well of dried glue and rubber seal pieces. Then put the switch in the on (down) position, add 3 or 4 tiny dots of super glue in the groove (Mag too), insert the seal quickly making sure it's in the groove all the way around and work the switch on and off a few times. Leave it in the on (down) position so the switch button doesn't push against the seal while the glue is drying. Then leave it to dry overnight. The best amount of super glue to use is that small amount that isn't visible when you finish. It will hold just fine and make for less clean up next time.


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## bykfixer

Lovin' Eds play on words... 'switch switch'... 'when Price took over price took over'....

It's too bad they were too cheap to stamp code 4 on the switch, but at least it helped ID the age of my light. Regarding flaws, mine has enough scars to make if difficult to tell if they were there when new. 

When these were new I was a kid so my little grass cutting $ woulda gone to bubble gum and not a flashlight. My pop however... once he got past the sticker shock of oh... $20 for a flashlight... he'd probably have skipped over a GT Price made LA Screw if it had those visible flaws thinking "what else did they scrimp on?"... GT Price had been around a long time and shoulda known better.


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## bykfixer

Acquired an uber rare switch for my B-Lite.
(Broken link to pic removed)
Bonus: Came with a conductor strip!!

The switch will go onto the Pro-Light (if need-be) but the conductor strip is a bit short. Yet it offers an insight on anything custom if need be.


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## LiftdT4R

I got some cool new lights in today so I'll make another contribution. This is a 2C Kel-Lite with the rarely seen lanyard end cap. This is a 1971 or 1972 light as per Kel-lite's official dating guide found at: http://www.kellite.com/kel-lite-generations/ This is because it lacks the Kel-Lite stamp behind the switch as well as the cell and size designation. It's a really nice setup. The light is small and light enough where it could easily be carried on a lanyard. These lanyard ring end caps were available in C and D cell sizes. The other, rarely seen judo end caps were only available in C size. The light is in as new condition.

















This light also came with a very rare Kel-Lite judo stick. These judo sticks were a natural jump for Kel-Lite because they were machined out of aluminum on a lathe in a similar manner to the flashlights. This was one of the earliest models. Later models matched the judo end caps on their C cell lights as shown below. These were sold only to police unlike their other products. These were sold from 1970 to 1975 and are very tough to come by now. Don Keller even wrote a book detailing the judo stick and flashlight defense tactics titled "Kel-Lite Manual of Defensive Tactics".











Darn it! I swear I told myself I wasn't going to collect anything other than Maglites! Now I've got other brands and even non-flashlight related items.


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## bykfixer

Good stuff Lift'd. CPF is an enabler, that's for sure. Good score(s) btw. This thread is getting kinda like the Pulp Fiction movie in that it would change topics from time to time yet they all tied together to tell a story. The story being once upon a time in California USA flashlight technology was changed to solid objects capable of withstanding the rigors of law enforecement and first responder roles without fail. Durability of lights we take for granted these days were a new phenomenon during the hay-day of the vintage California Cop Light companies.


Acquired some LA Screw parts. They are scheduled to arrive tomorrow. QualTech was the supplier of LA Screw products. Ed Tor was a representative and as stated by sgt 253 has been very helpful in passing on some details. We saw his words about the switch switch and how craftsmanship suffered under new ownership of GT Price. 

Ed had some stuff laying around and has passed some of it onto yours truely. Some gaskets, a GT Price'd switch assembly and apparently a QualTech metal reflector upgrade. What he mentioned as part of the transaction was some descriptions and details. When the stuff arrives I'll go into more detail with photos. He mentioned the discs in the switch assembly were fastened more securely by adding masking tape around the edges to act as a sorta 'loctite' device. (My word for more positive securing and staying fastened). He stated he is sending me one where the tape was not used so it can be more easily disassembled, and photographed to help others understand how to install a JUDCO switch because only 3 known switch assemblies exist anymore. Idea being future repairs will require replacement of the switch itself within the assembly unit. At some point I hope to perform and document that very procedure. 

He also indicated red o-rings were used after the Price ownership. 

Now the metal reflector was made by QualTech after Halogens became available. That 4, 10 and 20 watt bulbs melted the plastic ones so a metal reflector set up was devised. I can definitely see the 10 and 20 wreaking havoc on the plastic reflector. I'll compare the metal to plastic as well. 

Basically I will edit this post when the time comes. I will also add quotes from Ed as he has also given me permission to quote him.


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## 1pt21

I can't exactly say why, but this thread has become my absolute favorite AND go-to thread on CPF right now... Maybe something to do with the mix of flashlight history blended into U.S. history at the same time?? Man if this could've only been a class when I was in College!! Straight A's!




bykfixer said:


> But between the rust, the funk and the overall damage to the outside this one will probably be a parts light or perhaps a storage container disguised as a really ugly flashlight... a piggy bank perhaps.



A buddy of mine in HighSchool used a 4D mag (in vehicle) to hold his... uhh hummm.. oregano? He swore by it because; #1 a cop sees a mag and thinks nothing of it, #2 the whole unit was air tight sealed so not a single note of that sweet sweet 'oregano' scent would seep out! :naughty: Never let him down BTW.....


Anyways guys, please keep the info comin'. Wish I had some to provide, if I did, I would!


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## 1pt21

bykfixer said:


> Simplicity of the day.
> The bulb is attached permanently to the reflector. A pair of pins protrude through the reflector and slide into a connector point.....
> 
> 
> 
> That fastens to the sliding switch.
> The switch is near identical in appearance to the one on the 5D above.



WOW it's crazy how similar that looks to my old school KIU Bi-Pin kits that I've installed into a few of my mags back in the day!! http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...7-Mag-C-D-High-Temp-Socket-kits-they-are-here

I'll post some pics when I can find them and dig them out. Don't you just love how over-engineered certain things were back then? Now it seems like it's all engineered to fail and end up in a landfill somewhere :shakehead


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## ven

Love it guys, great info/pics..............keep it coming please


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## LiftdT4R

bykfixer said:


> That Mag is ugh! lee!!
> It has gouges all over the body where somebody put the kung-fu grip via metal vice at some point. It's still round thank goodness. But between the rust, the funk and the overall damage to the outside this one will probably be a parts light or perhaps a storage container disguised as a really ugly flashlight... a piggy bank perhaps.
> 
> Post TM, pre-panther.
> Lift'd spoke of TM vs R vs panther logo in the rare Maglite thread (page 7 & 8 iirc) which would put this one about 89-92. Nothing special, but it's the oldest Mag D in my collection. The bezel aint in bad shape so if it will disassemble from the head w/o damage I'll try it on my Malkoff'd green body 3D light.



If that Mag is taking up too much space and wasting away you know where you can send it. :wave:

I don't think I've ever run into a Mag that was too rough to get back running again. Other lights not so much because of the parts availability although thanks to Sgt. I have at least a parts connect for Code 4s!! Thanks dude!!

The stamped R bezel would be between 85 and 89. In 90 and 91 the grip lengths were shortened and the bezels were laser etched. In 92 they slimmed down the barrels and added the Panther logo. I call the 90 and 91 lights transitional lights because they were a cross between the true vintage Mags and the newer upcoming Panther lights. For all intents and purposes Incan Maglites haven't changed since 92.

If you have the serial I can give you a round about date. 1989 4Ds are going to be about 3,000,000 so the closer you are to that the closer the light is to 1989.


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## LiftdT4R

1pt21 said:


> I can't exactly say why, but this thread has become my absolute favorite AND go-to thread on CPF right now... Maybe something to do with the mix of flashlight history blended into U.S. history at the same time?? Man if this could've only been a class when I was in College!! Straight A's!



Probably because you're from Joisey also!! I'm mostly in Pennsyltucky now but I still get back to Dirty Jersey on the weekends.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm sure Mr. Fixer and Sgt. appreciate it too. I know we've all been doing a bunch of research on these older lights. Some of them are getting close to 50 years old now and the inventors/distributors will likely be gone soon so it's really been awesome to be able to document this before it's lost for future collectors.

I think the best is yet to come!! I won't give away any secrets but I know of some pretty interesting lights that have yet to be posted.


----------



## LiftdT4R

I edited my list on Post 4. Gem Light was a small manufacturer in the early 1970s. Abtomat has one of their lights with a tear gas dispenser. I don't have one but I do have a bunch of info on Gem Light I will post soon along with the Kel-Lite that started Gem Light.


----------



## bykfixer

1pt21 said:


> WOW it's crazy how similar that looks to my old school KIU Bi-Pin kits that I've installed into a few of my mags back in the day!! http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...7-Mag-C-D-High-Temp-Socket-kits-they-are-here
> 
> I'll post some pics when I can find them and dig them out. Don't you just love how over-engineered certain things were back then? Now it seems like it's all engineered to fail and end up in a landfill somewhere :shakehead



Blame it on Kainsian economics 1pt. 
Please do wipe off the dust from those old beauties and don't be shy about the details please. 
The thread here is about an era where lights became very sturdy, but at the twighlight of that era you crazy kids were hot-wiring these babies, which also deserves a section in this movie.


Later today edit:
I received a Price'd switch assembly today for my 3+2 = 5D LA Screw light. Folks here know I rarely say anything negative about any flashlights. I won't change that today. But to rave about it? I just cannot tell that lie. 

I'm trying to discover the history or model of the 'signaler' my 5D came with. I got it working today. It's a toggler with no permanent 'on' position. You push, pull or press for light. Perhaps that was the botched 'signaler' Ed mentioned. But it is made from much better parts than the JUDCO set up, that part is certain. And it was assembled to be durable. The Price'd clicky was not.

Here's the pix:
(Photobucket held links hostage. Links removed. Sorry)

The Price'd clicky spring is shorter and a much less efficient conductor. The spring is hastily fastened to the grommet that holds it to the connection on the inside. Note the nice copper fastener on the signaler. 

Ed and folks at QualTech used masking tape to keep the Price'd discs from falling out when you removed batteries. 

The JUDCO switch is fastened via a tiny screw to the barrel. 
So basically if your clicky fails you remove the JUDCO off of the barrel, clip the wires, glue your new switch on and solder the wires to a pigtail you hopefully left. 
(Broken links to pix removed)

In this day n age we shout "what a stupid setup'. But when LA Screw did it, the clicky was in the invention phase. Sliding switches were still the norm. So naturally some less than awesome ideas were tried. And from a gadget and gizmo guy perspective this thing aint bad. Miracle glue and some solder could get your clicky going again. 

Back then miracle glue was a new way. It was not uncommon to see a nickle super-glued to a school desk in those days when the tv comercial had a guy suspended in mid air holding onto his hard hat that had been "super-glued" to a steel girder. It was a time when cars came without AC, radios and dome lights unless you paid extra. And the luxury cars had push button activated map readers. 

I also received a QualTech metal reflector. It is nearly identical in size to the LA Screw one but has a bulb retainer. It was meant for those newfangled halogen bulbs. It came with a thin o'ring to sandwich between itself and the lens to act as a gap filler as the LA Screw reflector came with a gasket that you re-used (or replaced) when installing the QualTech one. 

(Link to photo of o-ring'd reflector removed)

The Qualtech has a bulb fastener that is conventional size where the LA Screw was over sized just like..... 
A B-Lite
(Broken link to pic removed)

Yessssssss!!! A replacement for my B-Lite.
The LA Screw reflector was the same one as John Bianchi/Don Kellers B-Lites. 
So my LA Screw now has a metal reflector and my B-Lite has a like new plastic reflector. 

Now I tried, tried and tried again to get the Price'd clicky to work connected to the head of my LA Screw in 2 or 3 cell mode. But that junky spring just would not activate the proprietary contact disc. But when I use it inline between two barrels in 5D mode where the spring contacts a battery it works perfectly. I considered doing a recontructive surgery to swap out springs but being there are reportedly only 3 known new assemblies left on the planet (this being one of them) I chose not to. I left it screwed to my 3 cell barrel for the days I want a 5 cell setup. But the light will remain a 2 cell signaler most of the time... that or direct drive 2 cell stubby.
(Got the Price'd clicky working in 3 cell configuration)

Appologies for the links to photos issue. Maybe some day they will magically work again. 



The Bianchi B-Lite with LA Screw reflector, a Smoke Cuttered Code 4 by LA Screw with a funky toggler switch and a 3 cell Code 4 with a GT Price'd clicky switch.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Awesome!! I'm waiting for my parts cache from Qualtech as well. Tat is great info on the interchangeability of the B Lite and LA Screw Reflectors. Are they are a 1 for 1 swap? Are the threads and size/shape the same on them? I like the LA Screw lights, a lot, and it's super interesting to see the evolution of these lights. That being said I can see why that system isn't used anymore. Getting all the contacts to line up and then ensuring there is low overall resistance in the system is difficult. I can just see a user in the field having difficulty with this. 

This reminds me so much of the old trucks I used to collect and work on. I like your analogy to cars too. The saying used to go new trucks have flaws, vintage trucks have quirks. Nobody will complain about a classic Bronco with No A?C because it's supposed to be ridden with the top down and the smoker's vents open! Hop into a new XL F150 and you won't even find an option for no A/C because any workers would probably file a lawsuit against the company for buying one without.

Anyway, I've been working on a 5C 1st Gen Kel-Lite I picked up with 2 stuck cells and after a nice vinegar bath, success! I was able to exile the offending cells from their unjustly occupied aluminum territory.






ABTOMAT wasn't kidding when he said Kel-Lite sold a ton of these. I've seen sooo many 1st Gen 5Cs. Going on 45 years later and seeing this many really says something. Either they last forever, which they do, or there were a ton of them made and sold. Crazy to see that C cells were the preferred option in the early days. I guess it's because the diameter was so much closer to a billy club or baton. I've still got a little work to do but this is turning out to be quite the nice little project. I don't have many other restorations lined up so I've gotta start scouting the bay because that is half the fun in these lights to me is getting them back into working order and saving them from the scrap heap! NIB is nice but used and abused tells a better story!


----------



## bykfixer

I remember as a kid my dad had a 2D Mag and mom had a 4C. My dad called hers a girl sized light. But strangely enough he used her light way more often than his. 

I think it boils down to grip. The baton, the golf club, the bicycle/motorcycle grip, the baseball bat... all similar in size. I definitely prefer to carry a 4C Mag vs a 3D although they weigh pretty close to the same. 

But carrying a 2D sized Bianchi... that thing just exudes strength. Not owning a Kel-Lite (yet) I cannot say how they feel. But carrying my 2D Bianchi makes my 4C Mag feel... like a girl sized light (insert tool time Tim Taylor roar here)

Yes the reflector from an LA Screw to a B-Lite is a direct swap. Even uses the same gasket around it. 

I began a recoating process of the B-Lite lens yesterday.
(Photobucket holding link hostage to picture of finished product and the Krylon for plastic paint used so I removed it)
5 very thin coats of white and 5 very thin coats of clear coat to 'orange peel' it. 
It's inside a cure box inside my home as a fume free way to keep the temp/humidity stable. 

I did a compare after a coat of white to see how it will work. Basically the clear (read coating gone from) reflector cast a very floody beam with a soft spot. The white background did not change that. It did however seem to put more light out front. I'll add some shiney clear coat in a few days as my thought is to have a flooder beam like those lights from the early days.

Great analogy on the Bronco vs F-150 these days. Kinda like "alkaline batteries? Are you crazy? Carbon zincs? No way I'm using those things" Leaked battery? I'm suein' somebody.


----------



## carnage

Great thread! Can these flashlight be cleaned up with auto compound and polish to bring back the finish or that that will just ruin the patina/character of them?


----------



## bykfixer

Great question Carnage!!! 

The coatings on these babies were tough. So far I've found that a diluted soapy water dipped tooth brush removes most of the dingey stuff in the textured areas and a good buff with a micro fiber cloth brings the life back. The lenses and reflectors can be tricky as the coating on plastic reflectors scratches very easily. Lenses too. 
Best when gentley finger tip cleaned under a slow running faucet. 

You can apply a car polish if you desire, however the stuff will be difficult to remove from the textured surfaces. If you've ever waxed the lower portions of an automobile with a textured surface it's similar.


----------



## LiftdT4R

carnage said:


> Great thread! Can these flashlight be cleaned up with auto compound and polish to bring back the finish or that that will just ruin the patina/character of them?



I normally don't touch the finish because like other antiques they are best in original condition. The finish is anodizing on most of these lights so I don't think they'd benefit from polishing. Usually over time the anodizing fades and there's really no way to bring it back without re-anodizing it which would be expensive for a single piece and it would have to be stripped all the way down. 

What I have found very interesting on the fading anodizing is that like all other finishes no one can produce a true black. That's because black is the absence of all color and not a color itself. On the faded lights you'll see purple, blue, even some dark reds. Basically when anodizing a light "black" what the anodizers are doing is anodizing the light a really really dark, red, blue, purple, etc. So much so that it looks black when new. Here's an example below of two black Maglites from around the same time. One stayed new in box and one was well used.







You can see the used one looks purple due to the anodizing fading away.

Anyway, that's probably a really long answer to your questions but the long and short is there really isn't a way to repair the existing finish on a light. Re-finishing it is generally expensive or not a good idea if you're a collector. I do use some gun oil from time to time on lights to make the finish look a little nicer though. I use the Gojo orange hand cleaner with pumice to remove dirt and gunk building. These two together will make a light look just about as good as it can be without ruining it's character.

EDIT: Woo hoo, page 3!!! That's 3 more pages than I ever thought I'd see on vintage lights!! I really hope this gets others interested in collecting because it really is a blast and it's an affordable hobby to get into.


----------



## carnage

For the plastic lenses there is non abrasive plastic polish on the market. They uses chemical cleaners instead of abrasives and with a good microfiber it might bring the optical clarity back to the lenses. Can you use a spray can coating on the lenses like 2k spray clearcoat to help restore the lense?


----------



## LiftdT4R

bykfixer said:


> 5 very thin coats of white and 5 very thin coats of clear coat to 'orange peel' it.
> It's inside a cure box inside my home as a fume free way to keep the temp/humidity stable.
> 
> I did a compare after a coat of white to see how it will work. Basically the clear (read coating gone from) reflector cast a very floody beam with a soft spot. The white background did not change that. It did however seem to put more light out front. I'll add some shiney clear coat in a few days as my thought is to have a flooder beam like those lights from the early days.



Hey Mr. Fixer, wanted to ask ya too. Are you planning on using any kind of chrome paint over this? I have a 3rd gen Kel Lite reflector I want to do and I basically have it sanded down to raw metal so I was thinking starting with a matte white coating and then going to a chrome spray paint but I was wondering if you had any advice as far as brand or type of paint to get so it looks half way decent.


----------



## carnage

LiftdT4R said:


> I normally don't touch the finish because like other antiques they are best in original condition. The finish is anodizing on most of these lights so I don't think they'd benefit from polishing. Usually over time the anodizing fades and there's really no way to bring it back without re-anodizing it which would be expensive for a single piece and it would have to be stripped all the way down.
> 
> What I have found very interesting on the fading anodizing is that like all other finishes no one can produce a true black. That's because black is the absence of all color and not a color itself. On the faded lights you'll see purple, blue, even some dark reds. Basically when anodizing a light "black" what the anodizers are doing is anodizing the light a really really dark, red, blue, purple, etc. So much so that it looks black when new. Here's an example below of two black Maglites from around the same time. One stayed new in box and one was well used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see the used one looks purple due to the anodizing fading away.
> 
> Anyway, that's probably a really long answer to your questions but the long and short is there really isn't a way to repair the existing finish on a light. Re-finishing it is generally expensive or not a good idea if you're a collector. I do use some gun oil from time to time on lights to make the finish look a little nicer though. I use the Gojo orange hand cleaner with pumice to remove dirt and gunk building. These two together will make a light look just about as good as it can be without ruining it's character.
> 
> EDIT: Woo hoo, page 3!!! That's 3 more pages than I ever thought I'd see on vintage lights!! I really hope this gets others interested in collecting because it really is a blast and it's an affordable hobby to get into.



I wasn't sure if there were like automotive paint or powder coated on the light. If you were using Gojo which is abrasive would a auto compound be just as good and leave a shine behind?


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## bykfixer

carnage said:


> I wasn't sure if there were like automotive paint or powder coated on the light. If you were using Gojo which is abrasive would a auto compound be just as good and leave a shine behind?



I use pumice free hand cleaner. Permatex makes it. Back when these lights were new there was no pumice in the go-jo we had access to. It got engine parts sparkling clean without harming the finish when gentley massaged onto the surface and sprayed off with a house typical water pressured garden hose. 
But so far a highly diluted soapy water, a tooth brush and a buffing cloth have made mine look great.

Now a silver light? Mothers mag wheel polish does wonders for those. (See my 'restore vintage lights' thread for some examples).

Lift'd, I've seen some stuff used that'll give a very chrome-ish appearance. A 2 stage process where a catalyst is applied then the final product. Look up re-chroming motorcycle parts. I've seen it used on plastics, coated wood and metal. For best look they paint it black first. But I went with white because it reflects light better. Yeah the plan is to try it someday... when I have several reflectors to do so the cost can be spread out over the items. No specific products to reccomend, but I've seen 'spray bottle' applications to air compressed applications and lots in between in youtube videos.


----------



## irongate

carnage said:


> Great thread! Can these flashlight be cleaned up with auto compound and polish to bring back the finish or that that will just ruin the patina/character of them?



I would say depends upon what kind of finish-paint,chrome or other. Sometimes just some good soap and water. Other times I like using Blue Magic-Metal Polish cream.

Other thoughts?


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## LiftdT4R

carnage said:


> I wasn't sure if there were like automotive paint or powder coated on the light. If you were using Gojo which is abrasive would a auto compound be just as good and leave a shine behind?



That's a good question. I suppose the pumice could be abrasive but I just use my hands to clean it when doing that and I don't go crazy with it. I actually like the pumice cleaners because it makes it easier to clean out the knurling on the grips. If you tried to use some kind of electric tool or like a brillo pad or something I could see how the pumice would be abrasive.


----------



## irongate

Very busy site here today folks :twothumbs


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## bykfixer

The key is to take your time and be gentle with it.

And BlueMagic is good stuff.


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## carnage

LiftdT4R said:


> That's a good question. I suppose the pumice could be abrasive but I just use my hands to clean it when doing that and I don't go crazy with it. I actually like the pumice cleaners because it makes it easier to clean out the knurling on the grips. If you tried to use some kind of electric tool or like a brillo pad or something I could see how the pumice would be abrasive.



I uesd to use Gojo hand cleaner with pumice and when cleaning hands you can feel the grit. I'm not sure sure if Gojo makes different hand cleaners.


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## carnage

bykfixer said:


> The key is to take your time and be gentle with it.
> 
> And BlueMagic is good stuff.



It's like baby step, try the mildest and work your way up as long there no harm in doing so.

I haven't use Blue Magic in 10 years plus. I think it's blue in color not sure if it change.


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## bykfixer

carnage said:


> It's like baby step, try the mildest and work your way up as long there no harm in doing so.



Exactly!, I'm using techniques I learned from restoring car parts from the junkyard.


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## carnage

bykfixer said:


> Exactly!, I'm using techniques I learned from restoring car parts from the junkyard.



I like detailing cars as a hobby and it's pretty the same, start with the mildest and work your way up from there.


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## bykfixer

carnage said:


> I haven't use Blue Magic in 10 years plus. I think it's blue in color not sure if it change.



So save it for restoring vintage LED lights with all those "bluemens"? lol



carnage said:


> I like detailing cars as a hobby and it's pretty the same, start with the mildest and work your way up from there.


Yup. Hondas R&D cars (the Prelude and Integra) tried all kinds of coatings over alloys so I did a lot of R&D myself as I was restoring a 97 Prelude.


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## carnage

Come to think about it, isn't all or most of Blue Coral product is blue because of the name?

I had the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, generation of Prelude and one with the all wheel steering. I was going to pick up 2000 Integra and put performance parts in it but then I got a job at a Toyota dealership and got into Celica. Now that I'm older, I started driving SUV.


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## LiftdT4R

carnage said:


> I was going to pick up 2000 Integra and put performance parts in it but then I got a job at a Toyota dealership and got into Celica. Now that I'm older, I started driving SUV.



Right on! Please tell me it's a 4Runner. Isn't that the only SUV Toyota makes? That's where my user name comes from. Ive been using it since I got my 4Runner in 2001 and joined my first forum, a Toyota board. Unfortunately I had to get rid of the yota in 2013. I would have bought another one if it wasn't for lack of aftermarket for off-road. It was an awesome truck. One day I'll buy a Land Cruiser but that's a ways away.


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## bykfixer

My son currently owns a 91, 93 and 01 Prelude. I have a 97 All black.

The 91 has lived indoors it's whole life except a few months I had it under a real nice cover. At one point we had 3 91's, a 93, 95, an 01 and a 97 all under restoration at the same time. The 95 was murdered by a red light runner and man that was a minty, fast car. 2 91's were falling apart faster than we could fix them. My 97 is in mothballs. The 01 is in progress of weight savings and added ponies while the 93 is his daily and the remaining 91 is 99% completed to dang near mint condition. 


Now thanks to a tip by a certain 4runner fan I have an east meets west Streamlight enroute that was made shortly after the Kel-Lite acquisition
(Broken link to the pic of the Streamlight made Kel-Lite removed)
And a GT Price smoke cutter I won at auction for less than the price of a fast food combo. 
(Broken link to pic of the light removed)

(Appologies for links to pix issues)

Idea being to keep the LA Screw history talk going as the details are known and to add to the Kel-Lite saga. It was written in one of the posts and at Atmobats thread that Don Keller later acquired GT Price and re-kindled Kel-Lite via Smoke Cutter Jr's. (Thought I'd landed some but seller later said "oops I'm outta those but I'll sell you some Bison Tech stuff... alluding to the Bison Sports stuff made by disgruntled members of Tony Maglicas family... and Bison Tech is $5 stuff available all over the place)

Now looking at the pix of the Smoke Cutter it looks like some Carnage questions may be answered soon, because it appears to be in need of mucho-grande' TLC. 

I said this won't be about SureFire and meant it. But did want to say I scored a minty version of an early rechargeable model from days when Carlisle may have used Streamlight bulbs due to lack of stock. The Laser Products 6R.


----------



## bykfixer

Double post-play-thru...

I have found some potentially promising products at Eastwood the famous automotive coatings company. It's called "almost chrome" and is apparently meant for restoring old tail light reflectors. $19 rattle can but I aint skeered. Not looking for a mirror like factory, but if it'll reflect enough to show what color shirt I'm wearing I'm cool with that.


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## carnage

My all wheel steering Prelude got hit in the rear and drove the same again. The rear steering was off and no wheel alignment could fix, it was a same

Nice little collection of Preludes you have.

Can't wait to see those lights all clean up.


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## carnage

bykfixer said:


> Double post-play-thru...
> 
> I have found some potentially promising products at Eastwood the famous automotive coatings company. It's called "almost chrome" and is apparently meant for restoring old tail light reflectors. $19 rattle can but I aint skeered. Not looking for a mirror like factory, but if it'll reflect enough to show what color shirt I'm wearing I'm cool with that.




The 2k clear coat I mention earlier for the plastic lense is at the Eastwood Co. They have a lot of restoration products chemical and tools for auto, marine, metal, plastic etc.


----------



## bykfixer

We avoided 4ws due to the frequent alignments required or they went through tires fast. Fun car though. 

Eastwood was a spot we knew of for powdercoat stuff and it never dawned on me until Fathers Day to look up reflector restore there... until my son suggested it. 

I added some quote-age by Ed Tor as either corrective or gap filling info to some posts on page 1. Between Liftd, sgt and myself we have bombarded him with questions through e-mail correspondence. He told me we are pique-ing his memory a little at a time and pictures have helped there. Keep in mind we are asking him detailed questions not much different than "what was your favorite sandwich in 1975?" if ya know what I mean. But he has been a gold mine of information... a gold mine that was closed in the late 1980's... anyway he has patiently been confirming or correcting our conjectures thus far. And I thank him for all he has done for us. 

Below is some quote by Ed about the red bar'd switch on my 5D as he cleared up a ton of questions about that one that was apparently not a very popular idea.

Begin quote
_I included the "no hole" exception above because I looked again at that strange switch on the Code 4 from ebay and now on CP Forum and it 'tweaked' a very dim memory. I do think I remember one or two lights with those type switches. The switch had a bad 'feel' to it and its production was such a tiny 'blip' on the time line screen it's got to be more rare than those Back Up Lites. I think they appeared between the good L.A. Screw double-sided and the single-sided referred to above. I think it was supposed to work like a toggle and not a button. That might be a hint why the one on CP Forum doesn't work. _
End quote

It seems in my use as a signaler. Perhaps a part is broken that used to 'hold it' to on... it can operate by pushing forward, pulling rearward or pushing inward. I found that carrying it with the switch pulled rearward aint so bad but would rather it have an on feature too. 

I plan on trying an HPR bulb in it for a 2 cell and 3 cell setup since it now has the Qualtech alluminum reflector. But when the Smoke Cutter arrives I'll do some Lego action between the two lights. Perhaps a signaling Smoke Cutter and a Code 4 thrower. 

Speaking of thrower, that 2,cell B-Lite with a 2 cell white star bulb and LA Screw reflector... good night Irene. That sucker throws an awesome pencil beam 100 yards easy.

Speaking of beams....


----------



## bykfixer

Here we are at over 80 posts and not a single beam shot. 
⊙▁⊙ 

For those of us who lived it, it was easy to remember how not only were these babies able to bash a headlight of a perp trying to acost an officer and still blind dope smoking hippies later in the shift... but the beam at a distance was also an incredible advancement. So to the younger crowd who yawn at incan output or just don't get the excitement I'll show some beams from my current collection. When you push the on button in your living room they are certainly not impressive. But when it's dark out the beams look like they were shot out of a shotgun barrel.

I generally prefer the shorter versions... 2-3 cell with a couple of 4 cell lights. The 5+ were incredible. 




Here's my plastic Pro-Light
It arrived without a cord to recharge the 6 volt battery so for now I have 3D cells (4.5-ish volts) and it puts out a pretty good beam as is. 
Note: my neighbors garage is 297' from my back door and has been used in numerous beam shots here at CPF.




My LA Screw is set up for general use.
Currently I have a TungSol bulb in it as they provide a real nice glow with nary an artifact. That and I forgot where I stashed the Chicago Minature hoard. But the smooth Qualtech reflector also provides a nice clean beam. I showed the wall shot to give the picture of the nice beam it provides. The light is not functioning at 100% as efficient as possible because I've yet to give all metal parts a good going over. 




The B-Lite pencil beam
Frankly I was shocked at how far this one throws. The LA Screw reflector provides a nice spill as well but this one threw well past the garage. It also lit the dark cat on top of the dark car near the garage but my camera would not capture what I saw. 




This is using the white reflector
The stock B-Lite reflector arrived clear. 99.99999% of the reflective material had peeled off. Taking cues from antiques and some modern Elzetta/Streamlight lights I tried white background knowing it would provide a nice floody beam. Great for indoor use when kicking in doors and ID-ing good guy vs bad guys tactics are required. 

Now some Maglites. All dialed to spot beam. 



The fabled 4C with a CPF twist.
Up 'til I arrived here I liked the 4C in stock platform. I found a bi-pin version but absolutely hated the beam. So an old school bulb fastener was swapped in and a 3 cell krypton was used. Not a heck of a lot more lumens, but a much nicer beam that burns a lot whiter. I'm on my second set of Rayovacs and still using the same bulb. (Bi-pin setup is in the tailcap)




A 3D in stock platform
This "heavy duty" was on clearance so I bought a few. About the same length as a 4C and nearly as bright, these were some great flashlights in their day.




A CPF'd 2C
Well, I had been able to get a couple hundred lumens from the 2C ML25 incan version using solar lamp batteries and 4 cell bi-pin bulb so I thought "why not the full size?" This one has a krypton sized hole in the reflector, which provides a nice gap around the bulb. (9mm hole, 3-ish mm bulb). Using a stock reflector and lens this sucker is pretty bright.

This one is dedicated to 1pt21



About a thousand lumens here.
Yup, when the worlds brightest LED's had barely reached 300 lumens the 1000 lumen Maglites were nearly ten years old!!! When this one arrived I did not own batteries good enough to fuel it. I ordered some hi-flo Panasonics. But before they arrived my curiosity was such that I stuck 4 CR123's into the Delrin sleeve. In seconds the barrel felt warm in my hand. Not digging the idea of a lithium hand gernade exploding I quickly removed those and waited for the proper fuel cells to arrive.

(Photobucket holding the beamshots hostage ⊙▁⊙ 
How dare they!!) (Left broken links in as a reminder)


----------



## LiftdT4R

I got my package from Ed Tor at Qual Tech yesterday and I had a nice surprise. An old Qual Tech / LA Screw Brochure. This brochure is nice in that it shows Qual Tech's awesome charger, which was the first charger for a rechargeable flashlight as well as most of L.A. Screws lineup.







This side shows a Medical L.A. Screw in the Luma Tech charging setup along with the Code 4 and Smoke Cutter.






This side shows an un-named model but going by the model designation of PP. I'm guessing this is the Power Probe that Ed spoke about. The only model that's not shown is the gold anodized Sea Probe.

I'm not in law enforcement so I thought it was interesting that they noted the meaning of Code 4 in this brochure. It means "No Further Assistance Required". I really thought that was a great marketing choice for the name of this light. I'm looking forward to try to find examples of each one of these lights to add to my collection in the future.

I should also note that the previous GT Price light I posted in a standard Code 4 with the optional Vari-Probe attachment and a red filter as per the man himself Ed Tor.


----------



## bykfixer

Good stuff there!!!

History gap filler for sure. Ah, the elusive Sea Probe still eludes... could be more photos of the Lochness Monster than a Sea Probe. 

My east vs west Kel-Stream arrived. I'll post some pix when I can to show some Kel-Lite ideas that were incorparated into Maglites... bezel and tail cap swap and the bulb assembly/switch assembly look awful similar...




Next to a 3D Malkoff'd Maglite
Mag reflector fits btw.

Basically you can see a lot of Mag tech in the mid 1980's Kel-Lite version of the un-named Streamlight. My sample is in great shape overall and it's one of my favorite vintage California Cop lights. Bulb fastener, tail cap type, all kinds of similarities.



It's to the far right.

Haven't fired it up yet, but also discovered the Malkoff Mag drop in can work too.

Broken links to comparison pix and associated comments removed.


----------



## 1pt21

bykfixer said:


> This one is dedicated to 1pt21
> 
> 
> 
> About a thousand lumens here.
> Yup, when the worlds brightest LED's had barely reached 300 lumens the 1000 lumen Maglites were nearly ten years old!!! When this one arrived I did not own batteries good enough to fuel it. I ordered some hi-flo Panasonics. But before they arrived my curiosity was such that I stuck 4 CR123's into the Delrin sleeve. In seconds the barrel felt warm in my hand. Not digging the idea of a lithium hand gernade exploding I quickly removed those and waited for the proper fuel cells to arrive.



Hell yeah brother!! I've hotwired quite a few mags in my day ranging from the simple ROP, to Philips 5761's, all the way into custom FM bi-pin bulbs. As I mentioned earlier, I'll dig some out this weekend and snap a few pics for ya. They don't really belong in this thread (so I'll only take up one post slot), but I wanted to show how similar the bi-pin socket shown in your Pro-Light rechargeable looks to a custom one I put together with parts from CPF members that have long been forgotten (the parts, not the CPF members)... I still love them, I pack an ROP'd 2C (2x 18650 or 2x 26500) every time we go camping and it gets the most use. I admit it, I am still an incan guy.

Sorry for getting off topic, it's Byks fault..... STOP poking the bear



BTW, I absolutely LOVE that they refer to our modern-day terminology of "runtime" as "burntime" in the literature posted above by Liftd!!!! I mean, that what it was riiiight??? :candle: Very interesting/informative thread guys!!!


----------



## LiftdT4R

bykfixer said:


> My east vs west Kel-Stream arrived. I'll post some pix when I can to show some Kel-Lite ideas that were incorparated into Maglites... bezel and tail cap swap and the bulb assembly/switch assembly look awful similar...
> 
> Just thought it was cool that inside the barrel is perfect
> 
> Haven't fired it up yet, but also discovered the Malkoff Mag drop in can work too.



A bit of info for ya on why so many parts interchange and some Streamlight history...

The barrels were extruded with the same dimensions and on a similar machine so that standard taps and dies could be used. From the folks I talked to that engineered these lights the were mainly designed so they could use standard tooling which would keep the costs down. For instance if Mag or Streamlight has to make proprietary taps to do threading the cost would be astronomical. Instead they just designed the barrel around taps that were available. This is why so many parts interchange between so many lights.

I want to say this 3rd gen Kel-Lite came about in 1983 when Streamlight took over Kel-Lite. I'd love to know more about the early history of Streamlight. The basics that I know are they started out as an industrial lighting manufacturer making lights for NASA and others. They also distributed lighting products and wound up distributing Kel-Lites for Norm Nelson in the late 70s. Norm wound up getting into some kind of debt with them and they ended up having an agreement where Kel-Lite's engineers at least assisted in the development of the SL-20, Streamlight's first aluminum flashlight, and the first in house engineered rechargeable flash light in around 1978. Streamlight at some point then bought out the rest of Kel-Lite and took over production of their alkaline lights as well in 1983. I believe they finally did away with the Kel-Lite name and cheapened the light further into the Excaliber by 1988 and it went out of production in the early 90s. The Excalibers do not have a removable bezel and the reflector and lens are not serviceable but still say Barstow and Norristown on the tail cap.

EDIT: Clarified that the SL-20 was Streamlight's first aluminum flashlight. Thanks Mr. Fixer for the educational article about the high intensity handheld lights they made prior to the SL-20. Interestingly I don't see any patents for Streamlight before 1978 and the SL-20 so I'm wondering if they didn't just market that for someone else or if they went by a different name.


----------



## bykfixer

^^ forget photobucket
From the Johnson/Kennedy Space Center archives



Postimage is my new go to.

I forget if I read it at Bright Guy's flashlight university or Battery University, but there was a write up by Streamlight talking about their 5 million candle power light in '73 for NASA and the 1 million candle power handheld in '74. Sure the light was handheld but one needed a shoulder strap to carry all of the batteries. I also heard or read somebody developed a belt to carry the batteries. 

But looking at pix of early SL 20's and my Pro-Light "Phaser Lights" PLC-20 (that was made at about the same time as the arrival of the SL 15 and 20) , there are remarkable similarities. I tried an SL15x module but it's reflector is larger diameter and deeper so the Pro-Light bezel won't go over it. 

It's why the quest for an early SL20. The hope is the charger cord at the charger is similar enough to work. I read here that the SL15 reflector and 3 D cells would work in the Phaser Lights PLC 10. I do know 3 D's will work in the PLC 20. 

Good info Lift'd. It's ironic Don hired Norman to help get Kel-Lite out of debt and Norman's Kel-Lite debt led to Streamlight aquiring it. Another irony is how Streamlight nearly went under for placing writing on the bezel. They pulled it together later with a government contract for the Scorpion, which had striking similarities to early SureFires... ah the crazy mixed up world of the vintage California Cop Light.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Very interesting to see that they used to spell their name Streamlite vs. the new Streamlight spelling. My guess would be that the change in name came about because Maglite long claimed and even tried to Trademark the -lite designation for flashlights. This spelling difference will help in the search for patents and for lights on everyone's favorite auction site.


----------



## bykfixer

Well there is that chrome pull behind trailer company (Streamlite), or perhaps it pissed off Zebco/Langley who had a Streamlite fishing reel. Maybe lightmaster had dibs on that name for flashlights? Maybe Miller beer beat everybody to it during their "you can call me Ray, you can call me Jay" campaign when their "Miller Lite" first arrived, which was iirc mid to late 70's... perhaps that was later though. Maybe Don said "hey, I have dibs on the -Lite thing"...

Dunno, but if you look at the fine print at the bottom of the top pic it mentions Streamlight had called dibs so-to-speak.

Meanwhile the GT Price Smoke Cutter sits in some airport in middle America somewhere near Chicago after spending a few days in transit from somewhere in Wisconsin. Makes me wonder if it's being sent Pony Express....


----------



## Offgridled

<a href='https://postimg.org/image/58kv0rh17/' target='_blank'><img src='https://s1.postimg.org/58kv0rh17/Smart_Select_Image_2017-06-23-14-27-36.png' border='0' alt='postimage'/></a>


----------



## bykfixer

I'll stay on the side track a bit longer to add some little known Streamlight history.

I read "a private investor paid to move to Norristown Pa"...
They began in New Jersey

Back then a few scientists were saying if we don't get pollution under control Florida will be under water by 1980. The July popular science covers "wind power" and "1975 cars" as well. America enacted the clean air act of 1975, which led to a collaboration between the big three automakers, the US government and big oil to allow catalytic convertors to reduce certain emmisions while not drastically improving mpg. Honda had developed an engine that burned fuel so efficiently it met the standards without a catalytic convertor. The big 3 approached Soichiro Honda one at a time but he refused to build engines for RWD cars, which rotated backwards from his.... and because he was the #4 of the big three in Japan they tied his hands... so he sent CVCC cars here where they were a huge hit by 76 or 77. Oh, and at one point GM's ceo quipped that Hondas were toys and there was no way a CVCC could be done in a GM engine. Soichiro bought a '73 Caprice, designed and built a CVCC 350 ci engine that met US standards without a catalytic convertor _and_ got better mpg _and_ produced more horsepower. lol. 
(For clarity I am also a Honda history fan and have been following changes in weather patterns since about 1980)

Meanwhile while all that was taking place rechargeable handheld flashlights were becoming very possible thanks to Qualtech.... soon followed by Streamlight, Pro-Light and Maglite not far behind.

Appologies for the link to pix issue. I removed broken links and associated comments about the brochures and magazine articles in them later.


----------



## ven

Great posts guys, real interesting and as always a top read. What better at 01:36 sat chilling armed with a few lights(not calif cop lights of the 80's though.......still I have an Incan with me). 

That 1m cd is super cool, battery pack and all.......


----------



## LiftdT4R

Offgridled said:


>



FTFY, this board uses v bulletin script and not HTML.

EDIT: Is that Bill Cosby?


----------



## LiftdT4R

ven said:


> Great posts guys, real interesting and as always a top read. What better at 01:36 sat chilling armed with a few lights(not calif cop lights of the 80's though.......still I have an Incan with me).
> 
> That 1m cd is super cool, battery pack and all.......



Better hurry up and get one! St. Incand's day is right around the corner! I can hook ya up brother. I'm trying to decide which light I'm going to use that day. I have a feeling I might break the seal on a vintage NIB 1984 3rd Gen Streamlight Kel-Lite C cell. Very rare but worth it for my first St. Incand's Day on CPF.

Mr. Fixer, excellent info! Love it, I used to go out with a girl from Fairfield, NJ and I frequently head down to Norristown and KOP for work. One day I'm going to drive by Streamlight's headquarters. I've been living in PA for 7 years and never knew it was even down there.

$400 in 1974 must have been a huge sum of money!! I know it is now so it must have been even more back then. I'd really like to see one of those lights in the flesh if one still exists somewhere. I'd also be curious to see who would have been a user for that light. I'm guessing it would be the search and rescue crowd and maybe some industries.


----------



## bykfixer

LiftdT4R said:


> FTFY, this board uses v bulletin script and not HTML.
> 
> EDIT: Is that Bill Cosby?



That's right, it was Natural Light that used the skit by Ray,Jay Johnson... and no that wasn't Bill Cosby. If memory serves Bill was doing Jello pudding pop comercials back then. Until the unfortunate revelation of events recently Bill Cosby was the text book picture of a wholesome comedian and had pretty much always been a role model. He would not have starred in alcohol comercials back then. 

The Lite beer jingle was "great taste/less filling" or my fav...




Easy opening cans

All at about the time Don Keller teamed up with leather holster maker John Bianchi making B-Lites... before the Duke shut down the Chicago madeTru-Grit flashlight.

Yeah $400 was huge back then. A new motorcycle was about $500... 

I'll probably carry my Brinkmann Legend 3C with me the night of St. Incans Day. Last year I had my neighbors laughing in awe as my ROP 2C Mag shut off their light sensing porch lights from 100+ feet away.


----------



## ven

WOW , $500 on a motorbike to get work.......or as only a flashaholic would understand, $400 on a stream lite and walk:devil:


----------



## bykfixer

Flashaholics understand Ven. Trouble with the 1 million was you needed a wagon to carry that power pack. 

Man, I love waking up to find a package had arrived a day early. (At 4am today tracking showed it still in Indianappolis)
Smoke Cutter is in the house. It's intact but not working. Lots of dirty metal on the inside (but no traces of leaked batteries) so a good cleaning will take place. The outside cleaned up real nice and overall this thing is way nicer than the seller photos would indicate. 

In the meantime I swapped bezels to show the reason they could accurately call it a smoke cutter.
The little 'mirror' re-reflects light backwards thereby absolutely destroying any spill.

Mine arrived with a typical Smoke Cutter slider switch.... 
Slider of sorts anyway. 
It slides through the assembly, push-pull like.Red button on the 'top' is for on, black button on the 'bottom' of the light is for off. If it is off that is easy enough to tell in darkness. You can feel one side is up and the other is down with a bit of practice.

Here is a quote from Ed Tor when I asked about the red button in my Code 4.
_As for red switch buttons: The only one that was on the LA/GT lights that was not black was on the 2 sided. It used one black (same as all the 1 sided [except yours with the hole] for the OFF side. The ON side was a red one of the same design. The red one also had a 'tit' in the center for tactile feel in the dark. (IMHO you couldn't actually feel it, even bare handed and this was the 2nd of only 2 down-sides) Besides no blink function, you had a 50/50 chance of pushing the wrong button first to turn it on, a small but annoying quirk._


Well the quirk he spoke of was another idea that works great on a flat piece of paper but in real life... well...

Some pix of the similar Code 4 version:




Red side is down





Black side is up.
See the difference? 

The monopoly house roof shaped metal plate on the piston touches the disk that is the conduit between the bulb and switch.





The spring is between the bulb contact point and the switch.





There ya have it... the fabled Smoke Cutter.

I did a little Lego action before placing them on display.
The Code 4 came with a switch that toggles. 
The "one with the hole" mentioned in the quote by Ed. It does not have an 'on' point where it can click to stay on. So I consider it a signaler for the time being and left the Smoke Cutter bezel on it so in a tactical event scenario it can be activated long enough to quickly light up the "hmmm what's that?" noise without all the spill to light me up, thereby making me a harder target for a quick wit'd perp to aim at. 

A bit more quote from Ed when I asked about Smoke Cutter switch assemblies being raw alluminum colored.
_All Smoke Cutters, Power Probes & Medicals had silver (or clear?) anodized switch modules. Only Code 4 had black. When they WERE being marked Medicals used a Power Probe or Smoke Cutter marked switch. There were some 'cosmetic'/marketing/branding uses of mixing silver face caps and end caps and even giving them a higher polish for their VERY limited (I don't think I ever saw one) EXECUTIVE model. I've got some literature I need to photograph for y'all._


Appologies for the link to pix issue. 



The current configuration of a Smoke Cutter and a 5D Code 4 lego'd to become nice EDC 2 lights


----------



## SG688

Plastic 2C Pro-Light






Yes, I switched the switches.










Kel-Lite D cell D-ring tail cap.


----------



## bykfixer

Ray Charles could see that one!!

Thanks for those awesome pix!!!!


----------



## bykfixer

Basically I got the Smoke Cutter going briefly. The switch was giving me grief so it's put aside for now. 





Temporary fix to be corrected with a blob of solder later


Having a new 8 pack of Rayovacs I put the 4D Kel-Stream into action. If you are familiar with antique lights equipped with focus heads or the incan versions of Streamlights TL2 and Strion you'll recognize how the 4D was a focuser.
Hey sgt, does your excalibre focus?





Appologies for the picture issues. Photobucket changed their policy and now wants $39.95/ mth to host your photos at forums. Not 3.95... nope a nickel from $40. 




"Post Image" does not


----------



## LiftdT4R

SG688 said:


> Plastic 2C Pro-Light
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I switched the switches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kel-Lite D cell D-ring tail cap.



Very nice lights!!!! You have a nice collection there!!

A little bit of history on the plastic Pro-Lights...

A company called VSI was the original investor backing Don Keller in Pro-Light. VSI was similar to Brinkmann, they were a consumer products conglomerate mostly specializing in outdoor products. VSI sold after the first couple of years to another company called ITT. ITT insisted upon using a union shop as part of their marketing for Pro-Lights. After the cost analysis came back the lights were astronomically more expensive using union labor. As such ITT decided to change them to plastic to make up for part of the cost difference. Don Keller then went to John Bianchi, a gun leather manufacturer and continued to produce the aluminum style Pro-Light as a Bianchi B-Lite. ITT went out of business shortly thereafter and Pro-Light ceased to exist after only 5 or 6 years in business total.

The ones you have are probably some of the last ones produced. The plastic style is very rare because they sold so poorly and weren't as durable as the aluminum lights. They are awesome lights though and it's great that they still exist!! They are likely from around 1978 or 1979 because those were Pro-Light's last 2 years in business.

Do you have any backstory on them? Were they a fleabay find?

Also, Tony Maglica was a large supplier of parts for both Kel-Lite and Bianchi. When Bianchi decided to stop producing lights due to poor market conditions Tony and Don got together to form Maglite due to their prior relationship. And the Maglite story is pretty well know from here.


----------



## SG688

The plastic Pro-Lites came from a gun show 10+ years ago. $2 each, or thereabouts. All but a couple were orange. I bought a dozen. A few had the factory lens with ridges to diffuse the beam, but most had no lens. Mag-Lite lenses were slightly larger in diameter but were easy to grind down to size.

I gave away several and ran a couple with the then popular 3x123 conversion. Neither the straight 2C nor the 3x123 conversions were as bright as a Mag, which I chalked up to a lesser reflector and more internal resistance.

IIRC, Pro-Lite promoted a tactical light with a long switch cord tail cap. Toss the light in a target room, turn on the light remotely and then wiggle it around to shine on the BG. That sounds like a great idea; however, one reviewer wrote that he tossed the light through a door only to have it pop apart.

In about 1977, VSI advertised a plastic Farrant style revolver grip that looked good but never came to market.


----------



## SG688

A 1976 Pro-Lite ad.






This news release may be interesting - as published in the January, 1983 issue of Police Marksman.


*STREAMLIGHT, INC. **EXPANDS PRODUCT LINE WITH ACQUISITION OF KEL-LITE INDUSTRIES*

NORRISTOWN, Pa. — Stream- light, Inc., an originator and a leading manufacturer of high intensity, heavy-duty, rechargeable portable lighting systems for a wide variety of professional, industrial and consumer uses, has acquired the design, manufacturing and assembly operations of Kel-Lite industries, Barstow, Cal., it was announced here today.

“The Kel-Lite acquisition now allows Streamlight to offer a broader choice of high performance, portable lighting with one of the most complete product lines available in the industry,” said C. Bradford Penney, President.

“In particular, the Kel-Lite product line allows Streamlight to penetrate the consumer market and enhance its existing position in its traditional markets,” he said.

Penney outlined additional benefits directly attributable to the Kel-Lite acquisition. He said the move would result in streamlined distribution and greater availability of both the Streamlight and Kel-Lite product lines.

“West coast customers can expect faster distribution of both product lines because of our purchase of the Kel-Lite 15,000 sq. ft. manufacturing facility in Barstow,” Penney explained. “And, the acquisition will permit us to implement an aggressive national marketing strategy characterized by increased competitive pricing in all our markets.”

He said that law enforcement, fire fighting and security will continue as three primary markets for the Streamlight and Kel-Lite product lines. Applications include professional patrol, search, surveillance, inspection, rescue, navigation and non-lethal defense. In addition, the company reports both product lines as having maintenance and inspection applications in a variety of markets including automotive, trucking, marine, utilities, military and government.

“The Kel-Lite product line will also allow us increased penetration into several consumer markets. The sporting goods field — including fishermen, boaters, hikers and campers — needs rugged, high performance, portable lighting at reasonable cost,” Penney noted.

He added that home hardware applications make up another important market for the company.
Streamlight, Inc. has been manufacturing and marketing portable high intensity, rechargeable lighting products through its Norristown office for eight years. Kel-Lite Industries has produced a complete line of heavy-duty, non-rechargeable C and D cell flashlights for 12 years at its Barstow facility. Kel-Lite’s existing work force will remain intact at the Barstow plant, with the addition of a Streamlight general manager, Penney noted.

Streamlight and Kel-lite products will now be designed and manufactured in both the Norristown, Pa., and Barstow, Cal., facilities. Corporate headquarters will remain in Norris- town.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Wow, great info and ad there!! I had always heard '83 was the Kel-Lite acquisition so that pretty much confirms that. I was always curious because I heard Norm Nelson took a position at Streamlight but I've never had any solid info on that.

I like that Pro-Light judo stick mini light too! I've never seen one in person but would love to one day!


----------



## bykfixer

⊙▁⊙ :wow:

So about that time in history a chubby accountant walks into a bar every Thurdays around 8pm and says "good evening everybody" and the crowd yells "NORM!!" ...






Wonder if this serial number on my Ca meets Pa Kel-Stream is from a left over Kel-Lite or just a coincidence... or perhaps the K means it was Barstow made, or perhaps a Kel-Lite design Streamlight, or perhaps it was made on Nov 1 (K= 11the letter)... or perhaps it doesn't mean a dawg gone thing but Coast to Coast radio each night has me believing Paul Revere was abducted by aliens and is now re-incarnated as Donald Trump.... and this serial number is code for that eventual event...


----------



## sgt253

Interesting...my 2C doesn't have a letter prefix...


----------



## LiftdT4R

sgt253 said:


> Interesting...my 2C doesn't have a letter prefix...



The C cells didn't carry a letter prefix. The D cells carried a KA, KB, KC, KD, KE (possibly) or KF. I have a bunch of these lights, only one C cell though, they are pretty rare. The D cells started at KA000001 and when they hit KA999999 they rolled over to KB000001 and so on and so forth. Unlike the Maglites they didn't give any designation to cell size in the serial. When they made a batch of 4 cells they picked up where last batch of 3 or 2 cells left off. When they changed to the Excalibers with the one piece head the numbering scheme continued because the barrels were identical. The latest one I have is KF318849.

I think, but am not sure, that Streamlight switched over to Excalibers in 1986 or 87 when they gave the Kel-Lite name to Nordic? Nordic was a company Don Keller was a part of to produce small lights like the pilot light Abtomat has in his thread, but I'm a little rusty. The Excalibers continued until 1990 or so. So all in all at least 6,000,000 lights were made from 1983 until about 1990 (F is the 6th letter in the alphabet and 318,849 is the latest serial I have). I've never seen a KE serial though and I'm thinking they may have skipped E so it could be 5,000,000. Interestingly enough this is on par with the Maglite D cell sales. By 1990 Maglite had sold about 7,000,000 D cell lights. Maglite would go on to sell 7,000,000 lights a year in the mid to late 90s, a huge increase in sales. The reason I believe you see so many fewer 3rd gen Kel-Lites compared to 80s Maglites is because the quality of the switch was not up to snuff with the Maglite and the warranty was not as easy to keep up with. Mag had service centers in every state where Streamlight did not.

So, out of all that, Mr. Fixer, I'm willing to bet even money that the KA serial you have has the removable bezel, and not the one piece head of the Excalibers. It is likely a true Kel-Lite. I can't see the head in your pic, so that would be a heck of a guess, right?!


----------



## LiftdT4R

bykfixer said:


> Coast to Coast radio each night has me believing Paul Revere was abducted by aliens and is now re-incarnated as Donald Trump.... and this serial number is code for that eventual event...



Can confirm, am part of the Illuminati.


----------



## irongate

LiftdT4R said:


> Can confirm, am part of the Illuminati.



You two are drinking some really nice wine-or shinning your flashlights at something out of the swamp! Coast to Coast and the what Illuminati-never heard of that? Keep working on those rare flashlights you two:tinfoil:


----------



## LiftdT4R

irongate said:


> Keep working on those rare flashlights you two:tinfoil:



Yes sir! That's a good idea before I end up in Gitmo or hanging out with JFK and Elvis.

Mr. Fixer, I'm going to have to hijack you thread again. This time I'm going to have to rename it "The Vintage Pennsylvania Woodsman Light Company Thread".

This light is a 4C 3rd Gen Streamlight Kel-Lite. I figured I'd post it since we're on third gen Kel-Lites. What makes it rare is that it's a C cell and Camo pattern. All of these Camo Kel-Lites also had a D ring tail cap as they were designed for hunters, hikers, woodsmen, and campers who would frequently use the lights in conjunction with a lanyard so they wouldn't be lost or fall and break if they were dropped while maneuvering outdoors. Those that have hiked and hunted in PA are familiar with the rocky terrain that has destroyed many a lights.
















Like most other companies the C Cells sold very poorly compared to D cells. So much so that Streamlight dropped the C cell when switching over to the Excaliber series. This is a ~31,000 serial which is near the end of the production run. This light went unused over the years as it was bought by another flashlight company for R&D use. I plan to fire it up for the first time and use it on St. Incand's day for work. It's shown below with a 2C Excaliber for scale and to show the difference between the Excaliber and Kel-Lite series. The Excalibers did not have a removable bezel and therefore the reflector and lens could not be changed. This was certainly less expensive to produce but made for a less durable light. I'm a big fan of the 3rd Gen Kel-Lites but not so much the Excalibers.






/HIJACK


----------



## bykfixer

LiftdT4R said:


> So, out of all that, Mr. Fixer, I'm willing to bet even money that the KA serial you have has the removable bezel, and not the one piece head of the Excalibers. It is likely a true Kel-Lite. I can't see the head in your pic, so that would be a heck of a guess, right?!



It's the one I call the Kel-Stream
Removable bezel yes. 
Beam focuses too. 


Waiting on some info on an acquisition that comes with a Monadnock baton holder
(Broken link to photo removed)
Looks like a Code 4.
I'm hoping Ed Tor can shed some light on.
Yes, pun intended. 

IG: I listen to Coast to Coast at 3am while doing my paperwork at work. Or while we pause in paving so the Union factory workers don't get stuck in traffic at shift changes...


----------



## 1pt21

LiftdT4R said:


> Yes sir! That's a good idea before I end up in Gitmo or hanging out with JFK and Elvis.
> 
> Mr. Fixer, I'm going to have to hijack you thread again. This time I'm going to have to rename it "The Vintage Pennsylvania Woodsman Light Company Thread".
> 
> This light is a 4C 3rd Gen Streamlight Kel-Lite. I figured I'd post it since we're on third gen Kel-Lites. What makes it rare is that it's a C cell and Camo pattern. All of these Camo Kel-Lites also had a D ring tail cap as they were designed for hunters, hikers, woodsmen, and campers who would frequently use the lights in conjunction with a lanyard so they wouldn't be lost or fall and break if they were dropped while maneuvering outdoors. Those that have hiked and hunted in PA are familiar with the rocky terrain that has destroyed many a lights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /HIJACK



Holy Hell am I FEELING THAT CAMO!!!!! SICK!!!

Beauty!!!!!

:rock:


----------



## sgt253

bykfixer,
Sent you a PM, to shed some light on the subject! Bad pun... :twothumbs


----------



## bykfixer

sgt253 said:


> bykfixer,
> Sent you a PM, to shed some light on the subject! Bad pun... :twothumbs



Great Pun!! lol

Yeah, I messaged Don as soon as I pulled the trigger hoping it was _not_ a special order'd GT Price. Seems like it's an actual (pre-Price'd) LA Screw made number. 

Now I stumbled across another little company from California called Tek-Tite. They made Tekna lights... so I bought one. 

It's a little plastic floating krypton'd number pre-6P. 
It's reportedly from the early 1980's and was apparently carried by officers as miniature backups to augment their much larger primary lights.

Anyway the light has a domed lens, which causes me to think it may be a fairly bright little number considering it's vintage. I'm not looking for 6P bright, but something comparable to a 3C or D light of that era.
I thought it would be a neat addition to the vintage cop light museum.


Appologies for the photo issues.



The Micro-Lith arrived today.


----------



## LiftdT4R

1pt21 said:


> Holy Hell am I FEELING THAT CAMO!!!!! SICK!!!
> 
> Beauty!!!!!
> 
> :rock:



Thanks dude!! I like the anodized camo vs. the painted on camo of the Mag.

I always thought it was kind of funny because when I used to have the time to hunt we always made fun of guys that carried camo'd out knives, guns, etc. We always figured if you want to find something you dropped in the woods it better be bright so you can find it. Camo is the last thing you'll see and most animals are color blind anyway. I always opted for safety orange on knives, lights and guns so I could find them.


----------



## 1pt21

LiftdT4R said:


> Thanks dude!! I like the anodized camo vs. the painted on camo of the Mag.
> 
> I always thought it was kind of funny because when I used to have the time to hunt we always made fun of guys that carried camo'd out knives, guns, etc. We always figured if you want to find something you dropped in the woods it better be bright so you can find it. Camo is the last thing you'll see and most animals are color blind anyway. I always opted for safety orange on knives, lights and guns so I could find them.



Ahh, it's ano'd.. Didn't realize that off that bat for some reason, but it certainly explains why it popped out to me so much! Reminds me of the special edition SF's that came in camo. 

Again, beautiful score buddy!!!


----------



## bykfixer

I have stumbled across some information about a company that was quite possibly the missing link between the days of multiple C and D cell lights made of sprinkler pipe to the days of palm sized lights with the output of a 5D light. Tekna.

Quote in italics copy/pasted from the tek-tite web site:
_Tektite-TEKNA History
The original Tekna company, formed by talented designer and entrepreneur Ralph Osterhout in 1978, was broken up and sold in 1990. This unfortunate situation resulted in product lines being sold to various manufacturers. Most of the flashlight products went to Ray-O-Vac (discontinued in the early '90's); an ex-Tekna design engineer bought most of the knife line (Roger Moriano, RAM Design); and the scuba products went to the new Tekna/Ocean Edge scuba company (later Ocean Reef). The Tekna underwater vehicle was eventually purchased by Oceanic.
TEKTITE became involved in 1990-91 by making diving flashlights for the new Tekna/Ocean Edge scuba company that was formed by leading scuba industry executives. From the outset, we were regularly asked about the availability of parts and service for Tekna items, and we began offering limited Tekna replacement parts and service in the mid-1990's, as well as some direction for owners whose products we could not assist with. Over the years, we have added to this list, and began distributing the Tekna knife product line as well.
In 2004-06 we purchased the original Tekna knives production tooling and inventory from companies in Europe and the U.S., and arranged for the production of the knives, flashlights and parts contained herein. In many cases, the original Tekna vendors supply components for these items. We are the world's leading experts on the original Tekna flashlights and knives, with our human resources including original Tekna dealers, service techs, production vendors, and design engineers. We offer the most comprehensive parts inventory and service for Tekna Knives and flashlights available anywhere. We offer 21st Century LED upgrades for most classic Tekna flashlights, so you can keep your beloved Tekna Lites, AND have modern performance and battery cost saving, too. We have added additional products, including additional improvements to the classic Tekna designs. The new Tekna flashlight designs offered here are where Tekna would have been in the 21st century. We manufacture the best, most rugged, U.S. made LED flashlights; we have the patents to prove it._

^^ Their brief history. Thanks goes out to Tek-Tite owner Scott Mele who has been helpful in providing information that'll be used in the future. The quote in italics was copy/pasted from the history page at the tektite web site. 




The "missing link" lineup




And some bulb info.

Note, to anyone who acquires a "micro-lite" or "micro-lith" a pair of N cells will make it go. 

I did some research here at CPF and found there was keen interest in these lights back in the days before 200 lumen LED's. And best I can tell Tektites current lineup are US built items. 
This post and further Tekna posts are not meant to derail this thread of big lights. It is meant to continue to chronicle the morph between baton sized lights and those little lights we now carry. 
I've reached out to Tektite in hopes they will chime in and add some history as well. Afterall, they too began as a small game changing California company about the time Tony Maglica was releasing his game changers.

Edit: 'post image dot org' is the source for these photos from my gallery. So long photobucket.

Nother edit: 
Tek-Tite has parts for the old Tekna lights including E10 LED drop in's with tiny little 5mm emitters that fit just like oem into the reflector.


----------



## SG688

In the same vein as the Tekna as transitional 1980's cop lights:

Not the first DL123 light, but MY first DL123 light, the UKE 2L, here rebranded as the Buck Lite 2L, from the late 1980's. The UKE 2L was a Candlepower favorite. Price was about $20 with the major cost item being the batteries. If the batteries went dead, might as well buy a whole new light. I had the same response from a rep. when I inquired about replacement bulbs. Never had a bulb burn out in any case.

The twist head on/off is not ideal for a tactical light, but one-hand sideways pressure against the head worked for intermittent on/off. I carried one of these for about a year before moving up to an early SF 6P - with 6LF module - in 1989. Pictured for size comparison with a Z2.


----------



## bykfixer

^^ Heck yeah!!! 
I love see-ing old light collections getting dusted off. 


Welp, the generic light listed at eBay as a Cruiser Club Carrier turned out to be a Monadnock baton holder with a free flashlight... a Monadnock special LA Screw Code 4. 

Here are some observations: First thing I noticed was the tailcap. Breaks down into two pieces
Part to hold that giant knot. Second half has a removable false bottom disc. But when you pull out that disc there's room for a spare bulb. GE PR12 in this case. 
Also noticed Patents Pending.
A clue to the vintage perhaps.

Next thing I noticed was the max agressive knurling end to end except for the smooth switch assembly and head assembly.

Using the 2 cell barrel up front allows it to balance best with the switch in between barrels.. 
My thought was a 3 cell light would be brighter than a 2 cell so for portability I'd probably use a 3 cell barrel up front and carry a PR3 in the tailcap. But from a balance perspective where the switch is at the best center of gravity a 2 cell barrel up front is best. Then in fast paced scenarios just removed the 2 cell chamber, fasten the switch to the head and put up with a lower output for the time being. When seconds no longer matter I could swap in the PR3.

A quote from Ed Tor
_"It looks very much like it's from a special order of Code 4s to Monodnock. I can't tell size but if it takes D cells it looks like a L.A. Screw 5 cell with lanyard. Of course, it's put together 'wrong' as is so often the case. The switch goes between the 2 & 3 cell barrels._

I sent Ed a seller photo in an email and that was his response. He noted the switch was up front and not in between the barrels like it should be. 





A 'post image' link'd photo of the Monadnock edition LA Screw Code 4 disassembled. 

Appoligies for the links to pix issues. Broken links to pix and associated comments removed.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Wow, very nice info on the Teknas and the odd Code 4. What is monodock? Is it another charger company? I wonder how they got a special order on the Code 4s.


----------



## bykfixer

They are police gear makers Lift'd. A New Hampshire manufacturer famous for batons and "other less lethal gear. The name comes from the highest peak in New Hamphshire Mt. Monadnock. 

Now if this light was say... 6 double A's it might fit in the baton holder, but a D size light, even a modern thin wall type wouldn't go in it. The seller specializes in used guitars. I bought some camera stuff from his store when I worked in NC. 

My wife called dibs on the baton holder so I plan on mounting it by the bed for her to store her miniature "ball park promo" baseball bat.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Very interesting! I see they were bought out by Safariland a number of years back. Great info!! I'll be on the lookout for one of those lights for sure.


----------



## 1pt21

Byk,

Not sure if I'm the only one, but I suddenly cannot see ANY of your pictures posted.. I mean everywhere!

I think you posted too many pics bud! LOL


----------



## bykfixer

Photobucket said they disabled my share feature until I buy a subscription. (A new policy they enacted today and there are millions of photos now affected) 

(Edit: they're gone for me too)
They want $40/ mth or $400/year!!!
Sorry.

Edit2: it's not just mine.
I am searching for an alternative that doesn't require the viewer to click on a link. 
(Edit: now photobucket has blocked that with a giant advertisement)






Tiny pic might be a solution...
But they are a photobucket company so they may decide to hold those for ransome too.

In the meantime folks can right click with mouse or double click on mobile to see the image at photobucket. 

Meanwhile back to our program;
I got the Monadnock edition LA Screw going. I'd love to post a photo of the solution but...

Also received a Tekna micro-lith. The 1x proprietary cell type that can run off 2 N cells, but I don't have N cells in stock so... a micro-lite is on the way as well... the 2x N cell version.




One from 'post image dot org'.. a windows app.


----------



## LiftdT4R

I certainly don't want to take any traffic away from this board as it has been the source of much valuable information and discussion. I'm also not going to go back and try to fix the links in each of my threads because Photobucket got even greedier. I've posted way too many pics to go back and re-host. As some know I do have a blog where I've been cataloging all of the info that I've found as well as my lights I've collected. My general flashlight one is:

http://otherflashlights.blogspot.com/

And I have one solely dedicated to Maglites:

http://maglitehistory.blogspot.com/

I still plan to post here too with a new image hosting service but I thought that might be a useful reference for those looking to find my old posts with pictures.


----------



## 1pt21

bykfixer said:


> Photobucket said they disabled my share feature until I buy a subscription. (A new policy they enacted today and there are millions of photos now affected)
> 
> (Edit: they're gone for me too)
> They want $40/ mth or $400/year!!!
> Sorry.



Off Topic Rant: You've got to be kidding me!?!?! I've been using Photobucket forever, like literally since I've joined eBay god only knows how many years ago..

Now all my photos are blocked unless I pay some outrageous fee?? Yeah I'm with ya Byk; effff that!

What a grimy move on their part


----------



## bykfixer

I frickin' hate it fellas. Mark down in the history books that the last week of June 2017 Photobucket destroyed millions of informative articles across the web by blocking photos. 

Apparently it began earlier this week. And is just getting started. When I saw Abtomats thread ruined I went looking for alternatives. I cleaned up some posts in this thread as a trial basis for other potential host sites. Time will tell there as word on the web is photobucket is the first of many to do this. 

Well frankly as sick as I feel about it, not because of the work involved for me to fix my threads, but for all of those other informative threads across the spectrum of hobbyists, designers, professionals, and other entities that are now practically useless.

For me; this was a good lesson learned. I began doing how to's back when my only digital camera was a 0.9mp pair of bird photograpers binoculars. Then in 2014 a friend convinced me to join that now ridiculous photo hosting site. I got lazy. Instead of typing descriptive language that told the story I started journalizing in photo form. 

About 24 hours ago I discovered the dilema after being up all day Thursday and working all night that night. As I type this I've had about 4 hours sleep in the meantime. The rest of the time has been spent checking old stuff to see how bad the damage is. Well luckily the older stuff I did was not so bad as I was still using words to journalize and photos to tweak things. 
Example would be "how to remove a fender" where instead of posting a photo of a hidden screw and saying "there it is", I would describe it's location and post a photo as a confirmation. 

Lesson learned, I went over this thread and found that the majority of posts by everybody have not been damaged beyond some stupid icon being present. Nope. Good job fellas. The basic information and history is all here in large part. So as it turns out us old coots will adapt and overcome, which is how we survived, eventually becoming the old coots we are. The kids will just have to read the words and put up with the lack of entertaining pictures. 

Bottom line here:
The Vintage California Cop Light thread survived without hardly a hicup. 

My buddy PK says facebook and others will do the same thing. Well PK put up with lots of guff about his anti-roll device on a 6P (that stupid thing; it'll never catch on) and was told that stupid thermal step down idea in his G2L would be gone in 5 years. So I predict he is correct and time will again show it. While all of those pix of all those brighter than the sun flavor of the week exotics disappear one by one we will go on like nothing happened. 

I believe photobuckets move will gain them revenue in the short term. But I also believe this thread will be better without them.

It's July 1st and 18 days from today we celebrate St Incans day. Thanks to my friends here at CPF I now have a selection of viable alternatives to last years 1920's lights that cast their beams 25' or so. I carried my 4C Mag to work recently and used it instead of my usual Mag XL50 to inspect stuff during night paving. I think next week a Tekna Micro-Lite and a 5D LA Screw will be tap'd. The #222'd Tekna will fit in my trouser pocket and the 5D cop light will be available in case the contractor decides to give me grief.

But I sure am going to miss posting beam shots....

Edit:
While geeking out on all things flashlight I discovered my recent acquisition of the Tekna Micro-Lith came with their L233 LED drop in to replace the stock #222.


----------



## snakebite

time to delete every photobucket image and delete the account.
no use giving them any free advertising or images.


bykfixer said:


> Photobucket said they disabled my share feature until I buy a subscription. (A new policy they enacted today and there are millions of photos now affected)
> 
> (Edit: they're gone for me too)
> They want $40/ mth or $400/year!!!
> Sorry.
> 
> Edit2: it's not just mine.
> I am searching for an alternative that doesn't require the viewer to click on a link.
> (Edit: now photobucket has blocked that with a giant advertisement)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tiny pic might be a solution...
> But they are a photobucket company so they may decide to hold those for ransome too.
> 
> In the meantime folks can right click with mouse or double click on mobile to see the image at photobucket.
> 
> Meanwhile back to our program;
> I got the Monadnock edition LA Screw going. I'd love to post a photo of the solution but...
> 
> Also received a Tekna micro-lith. The 1x proprietary cell type that can run off 2 N cells, but I don't have N cells in stock so... a micro-lite is on the way as well... the 2x N cell version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One from 'post image dot org'.. a windows app.


----------



## bykfixer

This post is a test post in a way while I try different ways to post images from my phone. So while it is about how a Stewart R Browne light from the 1930's has a reflector very similar to the Qualtech upgrade reflector for LA Screw lights... 
I'm also trying out tiny pic, post image and imgur. 











Testing tiny pic
(A Stewart R Browne pat pend military issue circa 1939 using Tiny Pic to host)
I showed the Stewart R Browne light because it has a reflector that is practicaly a Qualtech twin. 1970's/80's tech goes back to 1930's intrinsicly safe technology. 










The Stewart Browne OD is larger but the resemblence is remarkable.





An LA Screw family photo.
Note cousin B-Lite got a reflector transplant thanks to grandpa 5D.

Testing imgur:





Basically a lot of folks simply share the link to their photo and we can easily click it and view. However it is a more satisfying experience to most to view the photo in the post. So while photobucket policy change induced insomnia combined with my ocd enters it's 3rd day... I figured out how to post pix directly from imgur using the little icons at the top of the text box here at CPF and my celphone. Aint life grand? Or you can do a simple edit to the link. 

I downloaded the picture to my account, then on my android did a long press, then "share direct link" 

http://i.imgur.com/S1D7Fz0.jpg
You can click/press to view the pic or...

Use the little picture frame icon at the top right of the post box, click "url" choice, paste the link and uncheck the box. Click ok. You see this...




After the simple process.
Or

A more direct way. When you paste the link directly to your post you see:
http://i.imgur.com/dYafSa9.jpg again.

Add (IMG tags) to each end of the link. 
(Note:If you go to edit your post later and want to make the photo show up you'll see url at each end of your link. Simply replace those with the IMG thing)





There ya have it.


----------



## LiftdT4R

snakebite said:


> time to delete every photobucket image and delete the account.
> no use giving them any free advertising or images.



Amen brother! I switched over all my posts in this thread to Imgur. I'm going to do the Maglite thread next.


----------



## irongate

TR4 did you get my message?


----------



## LiftdT4R

Yuup, up early here catching up on everything. Seems like my wife drags me somewhere every weekend any more.


----------



## irongate

She will keep you out of trouble then!


----------



## bykfixer

snakebite said:


> time to delete every photobucket image and delete the account.
> no use giving them any free advertising or images.





LiftdT4R said:


> Amen brother! I switched over all my posts in this thread to Imgur. I'm going to do the Maglite thread next.



My intial knee-jerk reaction was to delete my account at photobucket. I had gone through the motions but re-enstated it later for 2 reasons.
1) was to leave the ugly reminders that on June 30th 2017 they had pulled a gestapo move to many of it's customers. 
2) 48 hours after closing the account the pix would be replaced with little green boxes that cannot be accessed by a reader who can click on the now ugly reminder to see the photo. Apple users reportedly get an ad free access. Rooted andriod users with ad blockers also get the ad free view. 

Imgur is a work around that can be just as easily gestapo'd by somebody over there. Drop Box and Image Shack have already left the 3rd party link share game. Now that pb did their dastardly deed a sudden influx of non-paying 3rd party sharing minded images may prompt them to do same. 

Smug-Mug has a small monthly fee for sharing via 3rd party links as that site is set up for photographers to share their photos with the outside world. It's a pretty good setup if the imgur thing goes awry. 

Tiny Pic is set up to share photos directly to 3rd parties. They are owned by photobucket so I'm skeptical. 

About the time Kel-Lites were being Streamlight'd a ginormous natural gas supplier was using small, local companies to install local gas service all across America. I inspected many-a new project as a local government inspector to ensure they restored folks yards and streets back to normal as this progressed. Millions of businesses and homes began purging their electricity supplied stoves, water heaters and climate control systems. My thoughts back then was that someday these folks will have a monopoly. 

Then the giant company began buying up all of the small suppliers. Here in 2017 customers pay for their gas like always but... they also pay fees for the gas line maintanance, for transporting the gas from point a to b and taxes the priveledge. Meanwhile a consumption fee is also asessed by my state. 
So what starts out as a bill $35 ends up $63 after everyone grabs their little portion. 
My point being that all things digital will be treated the same way as we become more and more strapped to the internet....including sharing photos. 

So while Streamlight was acquiring Kel-Lite, GT Price was taking over LA Screw, John Wayne was shutting down Tru-Grit and Tony Maglica was swimming in $20 bills from the success of the minimag, subtle changes were taking place across America. Now your $24 celphone bill is $79, your $55 electric bill ends up $78, your $2.99 6 pack of beer is $8, and coming to a forum near you your free photo sharing site will be $5 a month. Photobucket just revealed the future.

Edit:
Here's a classified from the December 1977 issue of 'the Rotarian' magazine. 
It appears LA Screw was trying to tap into the high end flashlight user market by touting "fits in a brief case" "perfect for the executive". At $29.95 they were likely the only crowd (outside of law enforcement and military types) who'd forgoe that kind of cost for a flashlight. (Think $249.95 2017 dollars)




You could use your Americard if you liked. 

Here is the light Lift'd showed us in his collection. His is the GT Price version.
(Pic borrowed from the Kel-Lite blog)




Note the screw up front.
Ed Tor indicated this one was meant as a traffic wand or that sort of thing. Apparently initial versions began on Vare-Beams hence the Vari-Probe name.

I like the ability to lego various parts n pieces of these lights to go from throwers, to general use, to traffic wand, to super bright mega long type with a variety of switch types. Crude by todays standards but back then quite the novel approach to a budding niche of the flashlight industry. PK and SureFire perfected the idea later, but the LA Screw helped write an early chapter in the history book.


----------



## [email protected]

bykfixer said:


> I have stumbled across some information about a company that was quite possibly the missing link between the days of multiple C and D cell lights made of sprinkler pipe to the days of palm sized lights with the output of a 5D light. Tekna.
> 
> Quote in italics copy/pasted from the tek-tite web site:
> _Tektite-TEKNA History
> The original Tekna company, formed by talented designer and entrepreneur Ralph Osterhout in 1978, was broken up and sold in 1990. This unfortunate situation resulted in product lines being sold to various manufacturers. Most of the flashlight products went to Ray-O-Vac (discontinued in the early '90's); an ex-Tekna design engineer bought most of the knife line (Roger Moriano, RAM Design); and the scuba products went to the new Tekna/Ocean Edge scuba company (later Ocean Reef). The Tekna underwater vehicle was eventually purchased by Oceanic.
> TEKTITE became involved in 1990-91 by making diving flashlights for the new Tekna/Ocean Edge scuba company that was formed by leading scuba industry executives. From the outset, we were regularly asked about the availability of parts and service for Tekna items, and we began offering limited Tekna replacement parts and service in the mid-1990's, as well as some direction for owners whose products we could not assist with. Over the years, we have added to this list, and began distributing the Tekna knife product line as well.
> In 2004-06 we purchased the original Tekna knives production tooling and inventory from companies in Europe and the U.S., and arranged for the production of the knives, flashlights and parts contained herein. In many cases, the original Tekna vendors supply components for these items. We are the world's leading experts on the original Tekna flashlights and knives, with our human resources including original Tekna dealers, service techs, production vendors, and design engineers. We offer the most comprehensive parts inventory and service for Tekna Knives and flashlights available anywhere. We offer 21st Century LED upgrades for most classic Tekna flashlights, so you can keep your beloved Tekna Lites, AND have modern performance and battery cost saving, too. We have added additional products, including additional improvements to the classic Tekna designs. The new Tekna flashlight designs offered here are where Tekna would have been in the 21st century. We manufacture the best, most rugged, U.S. made LED flashlights; we have the patents to prove it._
> 
> ^^ Their brief history. Thanks goes out to Tek-Tite owner Scott Mele who has been helpful in providing information that'll be used in the future. The quote in italics was copy/pasted from the history page at the tektite web site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The "missing link" lineup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And some bulb info.
> 
> Note, to anyone who acquires a "micro-lite" or "micro-lith" a pair of N cells will make it go.
> 
> I did some research here at CPF and found there was keen interest in these lights back in the days before 200 lumen LED's. And best I can tell Tektites current lineup are US built items.
> This post and further Tekna posts are not meant to derail this thread of big lights. It is meant to continue to chronicle the morph between baton sized lights and those little lights we now carry.
> I've reached out to Tektite in hopes they will chime in and add some history as well. Afterall, they too began as a small game changing California company about the time Tony Maglica was releasing his game changers.
> 
> Edit: 'post image dot org' is the source for these photos from my gallery. So long photobucket.
> 
> Nother edit:
> Tek-Tite has parts for the old Tekna lights including E10 LED drop in's with tiny little 5mm emitters that fit just like oem into the reflector.



Well, we switched Coasts, we are now "Made in New Jersey" So far, that's still in the US, But following CA down the Left road...Anyway, I'm happy to provide whatever information I can to this Post, just send me a PM if you need links to parts, please.
As a personal detail, my interest in flashlights began because of "Cop lights". My Dad is a retired NJ Trooper. For years as a kid, I would get his hand-me-down or broken flashlights to experiment with. Eveready Captains, big searchlights, and eventually a Kel-Lite; I was hooked. I've had the fortunate opportunity to speak with Don Keller, George Price, Ralph Osterhoudt, and many other of my illustrious predecessors over the years. Besides owning a flashlight company, I also collect antique flashlights, with working models over 100 years old (I'm pretty one-dimensional).


----------



## irongate

Scott all I can say is WOW !
Thank you for all that information.


----------



## bykfixer

Man-o-man. Scott Mele is in the house!! 

I could (and likely will) spend hours geeking out on that photo. 
So much EPIC in that collection.

I read that Conrad Hubert handed out Evereadys to local precincts in New York back in the 1920's as a way of boosting sales at the time. It seems as though cops liked them (along with their wives) but perps n prisoners hated the idea. 

Part of what prompted this thread was while I was watching a Dirty Harry marathon I noticed the actors in a 1973 movie were using Captains. If memory serves I got the original notion while reading a member here's blog about early Maglites. The idea bounced around my brain some but never really stuck until sgt and I struck up a conversation about some info he'd gained from one of the players of that time. Now we have been graced with the presence of another player of the time.
Thank you Scott. 

Cheers to US made!


----------



## [email protected]

I just posted on the "Where's all the old timers?" thread. Been here since 2001. Seems like just 27 years ago I was being called a "young upstart" when I started the company. The collection photo is about 12 years old; It's considerably expanded over the years. Here's 3 of my faves:




L to R, all Eveready- 1903 police lantern (Wood), 1911 Low profile switch (first model with a slide switch), 1913 "Baby" 2 C-cell (Now converted to LED & still works!)


----------



## irongate

[email protected] said:


> I just posted on the "Where's all the old timers?" thread. Been here since 2001. Seems like just 27 years ago I was being called a "young upstart" when I started the company. The collection photo is about 12 years old; It's considerably expanded over the years. Here's 3 of my faves:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L to R, all Eveready- 1903 police lantern (Wood), 1911 Low profile switch (first model with a slide switch), 1913 "Baby" 2 C-cell (Now converted to LED & still works!)



That Baby 2 c-cell is what I have, just have not located any batteries to fit in it. Very nice light. Chrome still looks brand new, glass is perfect still.


----------



## bykfixer

Nice! Nice! Nice! Lovin' those antiques.

My little Tekna collection grew 100% today.





If Field & Stream says they're good....





The back.
NIP Micro-Lite arrived today. Trouble is the packaging is mint. So.... it'll stay NIP. 
The Micro-Lith on the other hand will see action very soon. 





They look nearly identical.





The little proprietary bulb will get replaced with a Tekna drop in.





This lens is what I'm excited about.
Holy Heads-up Batman!!! 




Doubles as a magnifier glass.


----------



## LiftdT4R

What an awesome addition to the thread! I've lived in NJ all my life and I never knew we had a flashlight industry here. That's pretty neat! 45 minutes away from me too!!

Scott, if you have any info at all on Nordic light, that bought out the Code 4 patent I'd love to hear about it. I know Don Keller was a partner in that company and they produced some small lights but I've never been able to find out what exactly happened to them. I have a suspicion they were gobbled up by Brinkmann but I can't confirm.

I'd figure I'd post one I've been sitting on for a while. I purchased a lot of some pretty rare and one off lights about a month ago and I'm still going through them all to see if everything works and finding out info. This one is likely one of a kind. It' s 2D very early Kel-Lite with a prototype mace holder. This is a Covina model from around 1969. There is no serial number so it is very early. 






This is your standard 2D Kel Lite except instead of an end cap it has a mace holder. If you'll notice it's stamped Pat. Pend. Gem Lite patented this design as well as a number other of Kel-Lite's designs while they were still being prototyped. Gem Lite and Kel-Lite both shared the same machinist and in the early days of the industry folks were not as crazy about patenting inventions or trademarking designs and logos as they are now. Rather than sue, Kel-Lite waited for Gem Lite to fold after only 2 years in business. The whole setup proved to be cumbersome and wasn't well received so Kel-Lite never produced it and Gem Lite only produced it for a short time. Abtomat has an example of the Gem Lite version in his thread.






Kel-Lite produced fewer than a dozen of these for testing purposes. This is the only one I've ever seen and it even included a period correct sample mace canister. The bottom is drilled out so it contains no liquid. It's for demo use only.






It's roughly the same length as a 4D Maglite. Shown below is a picture for comparison purposes.






I'm taking off tomorrow for the fourth so everyone have a good one if I don't talk to ya'll before I get back on Wednesday!!!


----------



## bykfixer

Another epic score Lift'd. Enjoy your excursion mon-fraire.

Got the Micro-Lith going:




2 N cells work perfectly





Find that remote control in a darkened room, lit by tv beam.

Sure, it's not a blinder, nor is it a David vs Goliath tool. But it will help you see steps, find your keys, fumble throughout an unlit shed for your kids football, or provide the required output to light up the bathroom without waking the missus.
Most of all it easily fits in your trouser pocket.
(Next day edit Life has me on the vampire shift so I sat up and watched a couple of flix in a room lit by said television. At about 4:30 the sun starts to rise at my location so I decided it was time to retire, but first... pretend it's 1983 and I just arrived home from work, and the lights are out.... 
The magnifier lens exagerates the 10-15 lumens this thing puts out so finding my way car to home was great. Then climbing darkened stairs was easy. Thanks to the broad beam with a nice blended spot I saw my kids roller skate waiting to trip me long before I reached it. Then once inside keys were hung up.. woops, dropped behind a chest under the key hooks... easily found. Now I could see from my living room to the kitchen that somebody had left the mayonaise out of the refrigerator... pfft I don't dig on mayo so no care there. Then a nice gentle beam lit the hallway to my room. A cup on the vanity in the bathroom made for a nice light holder while doing end of the day stuff. Ceiling bounce with this light provided plenty of gentle light throughout the room. When done I twisted it to off and set it on the nightstand by the bed and went into my horizontal position for a few hours. End edit) 
Note it's 2017 and my kid is grown so the roller skate was not laying on my steps, the lights weren't out in my hood nor was the mayo left out of the fridge. But the rest took place as an attempt to mimic life at 4:30am in about 1983 when the Tekna Micro-Lith was available. 

1:30am edit:
In the vein of the Tekna, and at risk of igniting a SureFire discussion I'll mention another California Cop Light company, 
Pelican. 

Stick with me here please... 










Basically what I have read here and forums of other topics is that early Pelican's were popular for their waterproof characteristics. 
Now I have not read of police carrying Pelicans in the early days like the vast majority of the big lights this thread is focused on. I did read the Tekna Micro-Lith was. Perhaps [email protected] can shed some light on the little known 6 volt (2x123) version. 

Now that would've been what I would call the 2nd chapter of the California Cop Light... the 1980's. 
The 80's saw big changes. BIG! The irony is that the big changes in everyday carry was the lights getting smaller. The mini mag, the SigmaLite, the Pocket Mate, Teknas and yes... the Pelicans. Hell even Bright Star had a minimag clone at one point. Kel-Lite was Streamlight owned, LA Screw was GT Price'd, Bianchi was gone and Pro Light was doing ok. We all know Tony was building an empire he still rules today. By the close of the 80's things really changed. Dr. John Matthews had entered the scene. 

I say all of this knowing the point of this thread at the outset was those jumbo numbers made from sprinkler pipe that slowly began to show up across America in places other than police cars. I had neighbors who raced motorcycles and were all things California in my little one horse town somewhere in middle Virginia. They had loot (as their dads had good paying union jobs). They had Kel-Lites and B-Lites. (One of the reasons I prize my 2D Bianchi was those Saturday nights as a little kid standing outside of garages watching racing motorcycle being tweaked, and Evel Kneivel do his thing on Wide World of Sports). 
To this day a good slider switch is still my favorite. And Don Keller made good slider switches. But as part of the Vintage California Cop Light thread the 1980's also played a role. 

But the hayday was certainly the 1970's. To me the period still lives as long as Mag sells 2D incans and Streamlight still sells SL20's, Stingers and Scorpions with light bulbs. Now one could say that in 2014/15 the era ended when Mag, Streamlight, SureFire and Pelican stopped making cop lights with light bulbs. Streamlight may still manufacture bulb'd flashlights but to my knowledge the others stopped. 

One reason I own a 4C Mag incan was that my mom had one at some point. My dad owned an early 3D (that I thought was a 2D forever but my brother recently corrected me). I hope to acquire one of the old ones some day. 

Maybe Lift'd can shed some details on when the panther began showing up on the switch covers. I have 2C's with and without it. My "heavy duty" 4C does not. I've seen that question asked a bunch of times without an answer. Were they only on C models? Only 2C? Etc etc... 

In the meantime America celebrates independence from a king again today. Hopefully anybody reading this will enjoy an outside activity tonight... one that is made brighter with a Vintage California Cop Light.


----------



## bykfixer

Beef: it's what's for dinner (with a Smoke Cutter'd Code 4 to make sure the center of my wife's steak is the perfect shade of red)




_Incan:_ the _*true*_ high CRI beam.

Happy 4th everybody


----------



## bykfixer

Just acquired a 12" LA Brinkmann Code 4
A 3D Brinkmann made from the old LA Screw platform with Don Keller improvements.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Nice!!! I've been wanting to pick one of these up and check out the internals and how it compares to the old Code 4s. I'm looking forward to a full write up and comparison shots Mr. Fixer!!  Nice find!!


----------



## bykfixer

I keep checking the tracking forgetting it was mailed 'economy' from California. When I bought that ugly Vare-Beam sometime back it was shipped economy and took like 2 weeks. I'm supposing that Brinkmann edition will be a lot more like a Legend than an LA Screw. 

Speaking of ugly old Mag products I bought that 2D with the stuck battery. (In case you guys hadn't seen it on eBay it's a black TM bezel with "patended made in USA" on the barrel.) Lens looked ok, barrel, bezel and tail cap looked pretty clean too. So I'll drill out the battery asap and fix it up this fall.





I suppose I'll have to make room for it. 
I made a hole for the blue 3C, the 3D Brinkmann and my someday Kel-Lite acquisition. (Hopefully a 2C)

Far, far away from an Abtomat collection but I'm diiging the variety. My thoughts on the 2D Mag are to build a battery case for 2 LifePo4 18500's using an idea Irongate used on an antique baby C light, and use a 4 cell krypton to squeeze 150 or so lumens from it like I did a 2C a while back. (There in front with the green bezel)


----------



## bykfixer

Alright,
So this so-called Code 4 Brinkmann showed up today. Nice surprise btw. After it was unwrapped I commenced to disassembly figuring it a 'pre-Legend' flashlight.





Here's a look
In the rear is a 3C Legend. Then a genuine Code 4, then the Brinkmann. Yeah I can see _some_ Code 4 in it. 

Well what's the 2nd worst thing a California Cop Light user can see down inside the barrel of his California Cop Light sequel? (leak-yuck being the worst)




Shreeking violins screeming in background. 
(Note: if link ever gets broken it's a made in China sticker)

Turns out these were post Don Keller Brinkmann lights. Ed Tor may shake his head see-ing inside this one knowing that Brinkmann out GTPrice'd GT Price on this one regarding price... 





Legend type bulb assembly. 
Very similar to Maglite but nowhere near as sturdy





Fastens like the typical Brinkman with a big Ole C clip in a groove inside the body to hold the switch and bulb assembly in place. I do like that approach as a simple way to service the light with a pair of needle nose pliers instead of a proprietary tool. 





Eh, I was hoping to see the LA Screw false bottom spare bulb cover. 
Well there ya have it.

Lift'd mentioned over in the Don Keller last hurrah thread how Brinkmann started having their stuff made overseas in '94. Apparently Don left in 93 and looking at this one it appears he took his Legend products and designs with him.

(Edit: went back and removed photobucket links throughtout this thread and added back a few from imgur but.... I tried to be descriptive enough where missing photos do not ruin the information provided in case imgur does the same as photobucket did someday.)


----------



## bykfixer

Just in time for St Incan's Day 2017 the bykfixer has managed to close a deal on a couple of Kel-Lites from a cache of new old stock and gentley used items from Don Keller himself. A first gen and second gen D sized should be enroute very soon.

When they arrive I'll do some side by sides to show folks who luck up and find one at a thrift store or flea market how to tell the difference. 

I haven't been this excited since the day my first PK Design Lab FL2 arrived at about sundown....


----------



## LiftdT4R

Congrats dude!!! I bet ya feel like a kid on Christmas morning. Don is a good guy to deal with and a wealth of knowledge. For those who don't know he runs the current KelLite.com website. Be sure to post some pics of those awesome lights when ya get them!!


----------



## bykfixer

Yeah I'm stoked to say the least. A nearly 3 year search has resulted in an something I didn't figure on. These will reportedly have the original certificate of authenticity as well. Nice.

So a recent thread where member found a nice 3D Kel-Lite has a link that opens up a door to a treasure trove of information about vintage California Cop Lights. 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?433282-New-to-Me-Kel-Lite-3D-First-Generation
This is the link to the door. See post #8
Enjoy
sgt: again thanks for re-ingniting this discussion. 

Unfortunately a lot of pics are gone.

Lastly: I asked Don Keller what bulbs he used at Kel-Lite and why. He said GE and Phillips were used as they were priced better. 
But he also added that after 4 years of working with guys in lab coats the kryton bulb was pionerred. He named it "Krytpton" and in time it was introduced by Maglite as their "Magnum Star". He said "we" sold them with washer spacers for non adjustable beam'd flashlights but the Mag did not need them. 
So like so many other things Don pioneered it includes the first high intensity flashlight bulbs... the fabled krypton bulbs. 
He did not say who "we" is and I did not ask.


----------



## bykfixer

So these 3 dudes showed up today;




A Barstow made 2C (1st gen), a Barstow made 2D (2nd gen) with gun mount head known as the small head and a Covina made 3D (1st gen) with the normal big head. 
(Note the 2C arrived with a Barstow tailcap, a 2nd gen bulb fastener and a first gen switch... oh, and a Maglite Hong Kong made 2 cell bulb)

I'll add more in a bit. Just got home from a long night and Mrs. Fixer wants me to have a cup of coffee with her before she starts her busy day.
Mmmm, that was some mighty fine coffee...

So anyway, when you get new (to you) incan flashlights it aint like a new fangled LED where you stuff in a battery or two, click a button and marvel at the beam on your ceiling with your new non-servicable gadget. With an incan there are mechanical aspects to explore. Well that and they aint all that bright so you don't get some "holy cow that's bright" pizazz with these gadgets.

I go through my 'what did Don do to get light from these' motions of exploring the switching, the bulb isolation, the tail cap design and all that with each one and for some reason the 3D was the last one to be explored. As I took it apart it was not anything unusual going on in my brain. But when I stuffed 3 Rayovacs in it I felt a sensation of being a kid again. Like I had done this before. I pushed on the sliding the on switch and that feeling grew stronger. When light was coming from the bulb I did like a little kid and looked at the reflector. 

Suddenly I was 6 years old and my pop had just let me change out batteries in his flashlight before I had the honor of holding it for him while he swapped out a tube in our furniture sized console tv. It became clear why those Kel-Lites looked so familiar in the photos. My daddy used to have one back then!!!!! Awe man, what a groovey feeling that was back then and my memory of the blank tail cap, the black slider, that ginormous reflector and the heft of that light all came back to me. 

I'll likely never know the eventual fate of that flashlight. Did it burn in the garage fire of '76 where his garage was set on fire by an arsonist. Was it a simple stuck battery? Did he give it away? I'll probably never know. But in this same week a 2D Mag from the 80's also arrived. Looking at that versus a 3D Mag, my brother owes me a Pepsi as he swore pop had a 3 cell Mag. I bet him it was a 2 cell. The two are close to the same length. And I now know it wasn't a 3D Mag he had in the 80's. 

The 2C was probably my most sought after vintage Cop Light (Califonia or elsewhere) and it did not disappoint. Such a tiny little creature that probably ended up used by many home owners back then. Massive quality without the quantity probably not rivaled until John Matthews Laser Products hit the scene. Maybe that's a stretch but it was definitely a game changer. Nice little light that isn't some radical change in output versus light before it. Yet compared to a baby Captain... good night Irene.





The evolution began in circa 1914
1914, 1924, the 40's, and Captain circa 1976 couldn't hold a candle to the 2C Kel-Lite.

Now the 2nd gen 2D with a small head must've turned a few heads. Personally I prefer the 1st gen slider to the Norm Nelson switch. Bright Star had mastered what norm was trying to invent way back in the 1930's. Nice try Norm. The light with a small head is very well balanced in use and the beam is a thrower for sure. Must've been an amazing thing back then for mounting to a shotgun. And I can see where it would accel in a smokey scenario. When loaded with batteries it is noteably lighter than when outfitted with the larger head. 

Kel-Lite made some mighty fine stuff with basic, tried n true components in a very durable platform. The metal reflectors have plastic bulb fasteners so hot-wiring them stock is out. But my vintage collection has some oldies with metal fasteners so there is that. I may acquire another 2C, a beater type or perhaps a well used 3C and outfit it with some 3+ volt rechargeables, a sleeve and a brighter (slightly over driven) bulb to see what a 1973 flashlight would look like with about 200 lumens beaming out of it.... sleepers... but these 3 jewels will stay stock.





The big D led to what we call normal these days in a much smaller package. 
But when was the last time a 6P, a Bones or a 1x 123 was used to break glass?

Some info copy/pasted from Kel-Lite dot com in italics;

_1st. Generation:

Designed by Don Keller from 1969-1972 included the Large head KL model, The small Head SKL and the C cell CPL models.

All models were made 2-7 cell. Locations of manufacturing included San Dimas & Covina. Plastic slide switches. Later models of the 1st generation lights were also produced for a short time in BarstowSpecialty lights included the 1 Cell D size small head which used two ½ D size eveready batteries 1.5v ea. 2 cell D size small head with mounting bracket for High Standard Model 10, 12 ga. Shotgun. The first aluminum weapons mounted flashlight.

A few rechargeable tail caps were produced to fit the QualTech charger which converted the D cell Kel-lite into a rechargeable flashlight. This was the first aluminum rechargeable flashlight.

2nd Generation

Metal slide switch design by Norm Nelson from 1974-83 same head styles as above and added a medium head. Also included the Baton light and Stud Light. Metal slide switches. Produced in Barstow, CA. Tail cap stamped with Barstow and longer for storing bulb.

3rd Generation:

Designed by Nelson & Streamlight, 1983 until approx. 1985. Medium head only with push button switch. Produced in Barstow, CA. and Norristown, PA. Kel-Lite attempted to get into the rechargeable market with a tail cap charger, only a few were actually sold._

_TAIL CAP MARKINGS 1st. Generation

Knurled edge, no markings (only several hundred manufactured) 1968
Plain edge, no markings. 1969
Plain edge Kel-Lite Industries and Covina stamped in cap 1970-1973
Plain edge Kel-Lite Industries and Barstow stamped in cap 1974_

_BARREL MARKINGS 1st. Generation:

Kel-Lite name behind the switch cap. 1969
Kel-Lite name and San Dimas behind switch cap.1970
Serial number next to switch. 1971
Cell size behind switch cap (D-5) & serial numbered. 1973_

Some comparisons of light components:




Left is first gen bulb holder. Right is 2nd gen.
Irony; the left one came from a 2nd gen small head, right one from a 1st gen C light.





Left is 1st gen switch. Right is the 2nd gen.
2nd gen allowed signaling with a mid point stopping point. 1st gen was on/off only. 





Left is the deep bulb holder tail cap. Right of that both are the smooth type.





Plain, no markings tailcap





No serial number barrel





Only Kel-Lite stamping at the switch





One tail cap stamping





Another version of tail cap stamping. A logo in the center. 
(Not my light)(edit; I ended up owning it later)





Looks just like my pops light.


----------



## ven

That tail logo is awesome, love the "LiTE" design on the head!


----------



## LiftdT4R

Hey, Mr. Fixer, question for ya! How much did say an Eveready Captain run in the 70s or 80s? I know Maglite and Kel-Lite prices pretty well. They were around $25 back then or more than $100 in today's dollars. I was always curious if there were any affordable flashlights back then or at least what a mid-tier model cost.


----------



## bykfixer

LiftdT4R said:


> Hey, Mr. Fixer, question for ya! How much did say an Eveready Captain run in the 70s or 80s? I know Maglite and Kel-Lite prices pretty well. They were around $25 back then or more than $100 in today's dollars. I was always curious if there were any affordable flashlights back then or at least what a mid-tier model cost.



I have an nip Captain from 76/77 with a $4.17 price tag still on it. 




Note the Gregory Peck looking husband in his Cary Grant pj's saving the "hot lips" Hoolihan looking mom. lol

The gen 1 Kel-Lite has stirred up so many ghosts lately. My mom was a local official so police visiting our house to deliver secret documents to be signed or give her a ride to work in snow storms was not unusual... so I'm guessing she must've procurred one through a local cop, 'cause aint no way my pop was going to pay $20 for a flashlight in 1970/71. 

Back then pet bird food came with pot seeds in it. True. So when my mom dumped out bird seed in her flower bed it was not unusual to have "wild flowers" growing in it. One day Johnny Law knocks on our front door (with some plucked plants in one hand) and when I answered it he said "I'm here to arrest your mom for growing marijuana". Well at 7 years old I knew what that was from see-ing the US President speaking about the scurge of drugs in the US during the evening news while Walter Kronkite spewed lies of the atrocoties being commited by our combat troops in Vietnam... 
My mom was out back doing something so I go running through the house hollering to my dad "hide mom, the cops are here to arrest her"... (turns out she had seen what she thought were marijuana plants in her garden and had asked the police to ID them. Johnny Law was just fun-ing)....

My pop went to the front door not feeling the humor, Kel-Lite in hand ready to give ole John Q Law a good whack to the head if need be...

Thinking back, if I recall correctly that policeman was a meat cutter at a local grocery store soon after. Keep in mind meat cutters made good money back then so it may have been coincidence...


----------



## LiftdT4R

If anyone knew it I knew it would be you. Crazy, that's about $15 today which is just a little less than a Maglite costs now. These were the Maglites of their day. A true everyman's flashlight.


----------



## bykfixer

LiftdT4R said:


> If anyone knew it I knew it would be you. Crazy, that's about $15 today which is just a little less than a Maglite costs now. These were the Maglites of their day. A true everyman's flashlight.



If you look closely at the lights used in Dirty Harry movies and the tv show MASH you'll see Captains and Sportsman flashlights. In the early 50's when MASH supposedly took place a Sportsman was available but a Captain (like the one in the photo above) was not and they had Captains for props. In Dirty Harry flicks they used 1960's Sportsman's. 

It seems to me in real life Dirty Harry would've had a Kel-Lite.


----------



## bykfixer

The other day I woke up in a cold sweat. I had dreamed my pop owned a Radio Shack made Kel-Lite knockoff. First gen body and switch with a medium head. Actually a pretty decent flashlight iirc.

So I emailed the man himself who said "Radio Shack had Chinese made knock offs in the 1970's" 

Double dratz!
Dratz 1; chinese knock off's.
Dratz 2; I gotta have one. lol
These would've been made during Don Kellers Pro-Light/B-Lite years. 
My pop owned one sometime between his big head Kel-Lite and his first Maglite.


----------



## bykfixer

Like Lift'd said in post #150, Mr. Keller runs a Kel-Lite store now. Folks can acquire parts or through emails or whole lights he has in grades 1 (best) to 4 (well used) he has accumulated through the years. Keep in mind supplies are very limited. 
With that said I contacted Don to request a first gen light with a medium head as a knock off to that Radio Shack knock off. 

He indicated a movie production company has requested 10 first gen lights with medium and large heads so he set aside one for yours truely. Also enroute is a grade 3 2C for use at my work. The idea is the light will use modern 18500 cells (w/ home made sleeve) and a 4 cell bulb to achieve an output normally available from much bigger lights. 

In the meantime I saw a first gen 4C light at eBay that piqued my interest. At first I thought "no way I'm buying that" but kept scouring the photos and noticed things were not like older first gen C size. It was silver but appeared as though the anodization had been removed, and it had somebody's name inscribed on the facecap. 

A couple of days later there were no bids. Opener was the price of a medium pizza. Why not? Ended up winning it for about the price of an nip incan SureFire G2. When it arrived the curiosity from the seller pics were confirmed. It looks like a late produced first gen, yet without a serial number. 





The early one (circa '69 with a Barstow tailcap) has no brand name over the model number stamping. The 'silver' one has Kel-Lite stamped above the model number. 





Serial number'd '69-ish model, no serial number on the silver one.

Another peculiarity was the Barstow tailcap. Besides the Kel-Lite logo, the letters on the silver one are polished in appearance with a shallow'r depth.




The letters on the black tailcap are deeper stamped and not as polished. 





Also noticed was how rounded the edging was on the silver one versus the black (likely older) tailcap. 

Now I won't bug Mr. Keller with minor details on lights produced nearly 50 years ago. "Uh, what year did you begin chamfering edges of tailcaps?" "What year had serial numbers and what years did not?"... that sort of thing. I'm just happy knowing the collection contains an example of what was likely an early method made one and a later method of one. 
Is the silver one a Don Keller run Kel-Lite or a post Don Keller run Kel-Lite? I may never know. 

I slid in 4 Rayovacs and fired up the original GE PR-13 which brought a smile to my face. The bulb was removed and placed in the bulb collection and in it's place a 1960's TungSol PR3 was installed. They were made for automotive purposes so they are tough and have a nice beam. And being a 4.5v bulb with about 6 volts of juice to it the output brought an even bigger smile to my face.





Perhaps the owner was a Raiders fan?
The 4C was a real good sized light with enough length to protect the user or for armpit hold but small enough to easily carry. 





Versus a Mag 4C.
The Mag 4C has been my favorite flashlight since my mom had one when I was a teen. (Circa early-80's), but it may collect more dust after adding the Kel-Lite 4C. 
Both use a 3 cell bulb. But the Mag with it's bigger reflector puts out more light. Maybe 80-100 lumens with a marvelous 100 yard throw with a ton of spill. Tonight I'll see just what the 4 cell Kel can do....

Edit: 
Noticing how much solar radiation hits the California Cop Light collection on my mantle...




Color removed to show how intense sun rays hit some..





Better. 
Easily accessible but no longer subject to eventual fading... plus a few of the wife's creations are more prominant. 
Plus there's room for more later.

Edit 2:
Chris at flashlight lens dot com has added 66 mm hard coat and ultra clear plastics to choices for those of us with big head Kel-Lites. (That's about $3 less per lens than having them custom made). 43.31 mm will fit small head and C size. I'll state what size fits the medium head in a few days along with sizes that work well in LA Screws and B-Lites with the gasket around the mens. I have 3 different sizes coming. 
(Edit: 52.1 fits the medium head fine n dandy without a gasket. 51.15 with gasket. End edit.)

His ultraclear is 97% out the front double side anti-reflective coated and the hardcoat is 95% with a tough as glass coating over the anti-reflective coating.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Nice lights!! I saw that 4 cell Kel-Lite up on flea bay but didn't bid on it because I had one. It looks like someone polished the anodizing off for a custom look. Kel-Lite did make a silver but I can see what looks like black anodizing in the stampings and part of the head is still black. The chamfer on the tail cap likely is due to the fact that Kel-Lite used several parts suppliers to fill demand as they typically had quite a bit of trouble keeping up with orders. One of those was likely produced by Mag Instrument.

The earliest lights are going to be stamped Covina and San Dimas instead of Barstow on the end cap. Don has a chart up on his site with how to figure out what year the light was produced. Yours are Barstow made, model number behind the switch, one with a serial and one no serial so they are going to be 1972 for the no serial and 1973 or 1974 for the one with the serial.

EDIT: In your pic of your collection, what is the large light in the back with the lanyard? Doesn't look like anything I've seen before.


----------



## bykfixer

Both C lights have 2nd gen bulb fasteners so yeah it makes sense they were made at the tail end of the 1st gen years. 

The tallest one is that 5 cell LA Screw sold by Monadnock. 





Shown beside a Mag 2D with a lanyard tail cap and 99¢ lanyard along with my Smoke Cutter'd 2 D Code 4 with signaler switch.


----------



## bykfixer

2 more Kel-Lites;





A medium head 3D first gen and a 2C with prototype LED drop in.

The medium head number is a reminder of a Radio Shack knock off of a Kel-Lite my pop had when I was a kid. None were produced this way but this one was obtained from the man himself. I asked him about buying the parts to do one. He indicated it would require canabalizing lights. Oh heavens no don't do that, was my answer. He indicated he was doing a few for an upcoming movie involving the use of authentic mid 70's police lights and would build one more...
I asked him about a beat up 2C for my work and he sent one with a prototype Kel-Lite specific LED module from the early white LED days.





That unique dome acts like an incan bulb.
It throws some of the light back at the reflector while slightly difusing the forward photons while casting a psuedo filament shadow.





Has "2 cell" stamped in it.
Apparently a few 3 and 4 cell were done and 'dummy' batteries were used for 5+ cell lights. Also some Maglite specific were done as well.





This one has a faded '13' written on it.





Looks kinda cool in my view





Side by side beam shot with an incan 2c. 
Very little hint of blue in the beam and what I liked most was the artifacts. It looks like an overdriven bulb... filament shadows and all.
Ultra clear lenses are due any day so the 2C fraternal twins should cast a noticeably brighter beam.


----------



## irongate

Nice going there Mr Fixer


----------



## LiftdT4R

bykfixer said:


> 2 more Kel-Lites;
> 
> 
> A medium head 3D first gen and a 2C with prototype LED drop in.



I didn't think Kel-Lite offered a medium head until the 2nd gen models on D cells. Is this something you put on from a later D cell?


----------



## snakebite

that left reflector looks like the one in my 1939 rayovac.
the one i stuffed a rop low and 2 26650 in.
the holder is identical too.and it took the heat till the rop low died.
might be a good classic hotwire host after all.


bykfixer said:


> So these 3 dudes showed up today;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Barstow made 2C (1st gen), a Barstow made 2D (2nd gen) with gun mount head known as the small head and a Covina made 3D (1st gen) with the normal big head.
> (Note the 2C arrived with a Barstow tailcap, a 2nd gen bulb fastener and a first gen switch... oh, and a Maglite Hong Kong made 2 cell bulb)
> 
> I'll add more in a bit. Just got home from a long night and Mrs. Fixer wants me to have a cup of coffee with her before she starts her busy day.
> Mmmm, that was some mighty fine coffee...
> 
> So anyway, when you get new (to you) incan flashlights it aint like a new fangled LED where you stuff in a battery or two, click a button and marvel at the beam on your ceiling with your new non-servicable gadget. With an incan there are mechanical aspects to explore. Well that and they aint all that bright so you don't get some "holy cow that's bright" pizazz with these gadgets.
> 
> I go through my 'what did Don do to get light from these' motions of exploring the switching, the bulb isolation, the tail cap design and all that with each one and for some reason the 3D was the last one to be explored. As I took it apart it was not anything unusual going on in my brain. But when I stuffed 3 Rayovacs in it I felt a sensation of being a kid again. Like I had done this before. I pushed on the sliding the on switch and that feeling grew stronger. When light was coming from the bulb I did like a little kid and looked at the reflector.
> 
> Suddenly I was 6 years old and my pop had just let me change out batteries in his flashlight before I had the honor of holding it for him while he swapped out a tube in our furniture sized console tv. It became clear why those Kel-Lites looked so familiar in the photos. My daddy used to have one back then!!!!! Awe man, what a groovey feeling that was back then and my memory of the blank tail cap, the black slider, that ginormous reflector and the heft of that light all came back to me.
> 
> I'll likely never know the eventual fate of that flashlight. Did it burn in the garage fire of '76 where his garage was set on fire by an arsonist. Was it a simple stuck battery? Did he give it away? I'll probably never know. But in this same week a 2D Mag from the 80's also arrived. Looking at that versus a 3D Mag, my brother owes me a Pepsi as he swore pop had a 3 cell Mag. I bet him it was a 2 cell. The two are close to the same length. And I now know it wasn't a 3D Mag he had in the 80's.
> 
> The 2C was probably my most sought after vintage Cop Light (Califonia or elsewhere) and it did not disappoint. Such a tiny little creature that probably ended up used by many home owners back then. Massive quality without the quantity probably not rivaled until John Matthews Laser Products hit the scene. Maybe that's a stretch but it was definitely a game changer. Nice little light that isn't some radical change in output versus light before it. Yet compared to a baby Captain... good night Irene.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The evolution began in circa 1914
> 1914, 1924, the 40's, and Captain circa 1976 couldn't hold a candle to the 2C Kel-Lite.
> 
> Now the 2nd gen 2D with a small head must've turned a few heads. Personally I prefer the 1st gen slider to the Norm Nelson switch. Bright Star had mastered what norm was trying to invent way back in the 1930's. Nice try Norm. The light with a small head is very well balanced in use and the beam is a thrower for sure. Must've been an amazing thing back then for mounting to a shotgun. And I can see where it would accel in a smokey scenario. When loaded with batteries it is noteably lighter than when outfitted with the larger head.
> 
> Kel-Lite made some mighty fine stuff with basic, tried n true components in a very durable platform. The metal reflectors have plastic bulb fasteners so hot-wiring them stock is out. But my vintage collection has some oldies with metal fasteners so there is that. I may acquire another 2C, a beater type or perhaps a well used 3C and outfit it with some 3+ volt rechargeables, a sleeve and a brighter (slightly over driven) bulb to see what a 1973 flashlight would look like with about 200 lumens beaming out of it.... sleepers... but these 3 jewels will stay stock.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The big D led to what we call normal these days in a much smaller package.
> But when was the last time a 6P, a Bones or a 1x 123 was used to break glass?
> 
> Some info copy/pasted from Kel-Lite dot com in italics;
> 
> _1st. Generation:
> 
> Designed by Don Keller from 1969-1972 included the Large head KL model, The small Head SKL and the C cell CPL models.
> 
> All models were made 2-7 cell. Locations of manufacturing included San Dimas & Covina. Plastic slide switches. Later models of the 1st generation lights were also produced for a short time in BarstowSpecialty lights included the 1 Cell D size small head which used two ½ D size eveready batteries 1.5v ea. 2 cell D size small head with mounting bracket for High Standard Model 10, 12 ga. Shotgun. The first aluminum weapons mounted flashlight.
> 
> A few rechargeable tail caps were produced to fit the QualTech charger which converted the D cell Kel-lite into a rechargeable flashlight. This was the first aluminum rechargeable flashlight.
> 
> 2nd Generation
> 
> Metal slide switch design by Norm Nelson from 1974-83 same head styles as above and added a medium head. Also included the Baton light and Stud Light. Metal slide switches. Produced in Barstow, CA. Tail cap stamped with Barstow and longer for storing bulb.
> 
> 3rd Generation:
> 
> Designed by Nelson & Streamlight, 1983 until approx. 1985. Medium head only with push button switch. Produced in Barstow, CA. and Norristown, PA. Kel-Lite attempted to get into the rechargeable market with a tail cap charger, only a few were actually sold._
> 
> _TAIL CAP MARKINGS 1st. Generation
> 
> Knurled edge, no markings (only several hundred manufactured) 1968
> Plain edge, no markings. 1969
> Plain edge Kel-Lite Industries and Covina stamped in cap 1970-1973
> Plain edge Kel-Lite Industries and Barstow stamped in cap 1974_
> 
> _BARREL MARKINGS 1st. Generation:
> 
> Kel-Lite name behind the switch cap. 1969
> Kel-Lite name and San Dimas behind switch cap.1970
> Serial number next to switch. 1971
> Cell size behind switch cap (D-5) & serial numbered. 1973_
> 
> Some comparisons of light components:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Left is first gen bulb holder. Right is 2nd gen.
> Irony; the left one came from a 2nd gen small head, right one from a 1st gen C light.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Left is 1st gen switch. Right is the 2nd gen.
> 2nd gen allowed signaling with a mid point stopping point. 1st gen was on/off only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Left is the deep bulb holder tail cap. Right of that both are the smooth type.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plain, no markings tailcap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No serial number barrel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only Kel-Lite stamping at the switch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One tail cap stamping
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another version of tail cap stamping. A logo in the center.
> (Not my light)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks just like my pops light.


----------



## bykfixer

That style reflector Snakebite was used in numerous flashlights for decades. Including the plastic bulb fastener. 

I'm really glad to hear it withstood the heat of a low ROP since I did a 4 cell bulb and a pair of 18500 LifePo's to get one of the 2c lights to shine like a much larger light. 





Nothing radical, just a lot brighter than stock












The medium head did not arrive until the "end" of the 2nd generation Lift'd, correct. I had requested a meduim head assembly and was quoted a price along with the price of a like new light with a medium head and gobbled it up quickly. 

The medium head lens (51.15mm) is slightly smaller than a Maglite 52.10 full size but the bezel has enough room for your favorite Maglite lens to work. I used a slightly difused acrylite to achieve a wee bit more flood and a lot cleaner beam.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Hey guys, I recently picked up a lot of old SL-20s. I noticed that the serials are the same numbering scheme as 3rd gen Kel-Lites. They start at SA000001 and go up to SC999999. I'm sure they go higher than C, C was just the highest one in my lot. I thought that was pretty interesting.






What's more interesting is that every end cap I have is stamped Barstow / Norristown. The end caps are definitely original because they show the same wear as the rest of the light and these lights have a lot of wear. The SL-20 patent was applied for in 1978 so Streamlight must have been working with Norm Nelson at Kel-Lite around this time and Kel-Lite must have produced some of the parts for this light. I would love to know more of the story on this but I don't know anyone at Streamlight, Norm Nelson is passed, and I've talked to his successor once but he didn't have any info. I'm afraid this is probably lost to time but if anyone has any info please let me know. I'm also wondering when the SL-20 was discontinued. I would think it was probably around the late 80s when the SL-20x or SL-20l came in but again I can't find any definitive info.






I was able to get most of the lights working. Unfortunately they didn't come with batteries or chargers but they will throw a beam with 3 alkaline D cells. I'll probably bump up to NiMHs so I can squeeze a little more voltage out of the light.


----------



## irongate

TR4 Glad you got those old ones.:thumbsup:


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## sgt253

Nice...


----------



## konifans

This is my Barstow made Streamlight 2C. I do not know what model it is. The words on the tailcap is exactly the same as the above SL-20. The light is very small and a little bit shorter than the new Maglite ML25IT. Same twisty on/off in the head. It has plastic lens and I guess the reflector is metal. It uses PR2 bulb, the bulb holder is plastic.

















Comparison with a standard Maglite 2C


Mr. Fixer, 
Don Keller sold me a first generation Kel-Lite 2C, just like the one you have. 
I will post some photos here when I get it. :twothumbs


----------



## bykfixer

^^ So you may have the original maxi-minimag. 
I understand LA Screw did a "detective' model that would've been similar but Streamlight?
Awe, dude that is cool and the gang there.


I hope you enjoy that 2C as it is a great little flashlight 40 years later. Buttery smooth slider switch, a,nice wide spill and a pretty good spot in stock platform. 
For originality sake they used GE or Phillips bulbs, but yours will likely arrive with a Mag 2cell krypton. (That is if he didn't toss in one of the LED module prototypes)


----------



## LiftdT4R

konifans said:


> This is my Barstow made Streamlight 2C. I do not know what model it is. The words on the tailcap is exactly the same as the above SL-20. The light is very small and a little bit shorter than the new Maglite ML25IT. Same twisty on/off in the head. It has plastic lens and I guess the reflector is metal. It uses PR2 bulb, the bulb holder is plastic.
> 
> Comparison with a standard Maglite 2C



Streamlight used the dual stamped Barstown/Norristown from 1983 until about 1988 or so. That's a nice light! I unfortunately don't know much more about it.


----------



## bykfixer

While searching for the original knock off to a 1G Kel-Lite with medium head by Radio Shack I found an LA Screw knock off by Radio Shack...




3C Code 4 look alike (although Code 4 was D sized)





Swap-able barrels. 

Basically it's a user serviceable number with a light bulb/ switch assembly not unlike a Maglite yet completely proprietory. It's a pretty solid setup with a beam focus like old Streamlights, and Brinkmann's. 

But the real McCoys were better made, more durable and well worth the coin they costed way back when.


----------



## bykfixer

Scored a big head B-Lite 3D





Here it is versus a 2D small head

Some details




Look! A Kel-Lite bulb fastener. 





Pro-Light lens with B-Lite writing.





Same bulb size chart as a Pro-Light too





LA Screw type flat gasket





Not quite same as the big head Kel-Lite 
Pretty close though.(Big head Kel-Lite lens is 61.60. The flashlightlens dot com 60mm lens will work.)
Also note big head Kel-Lite reflector also swaps directly.

This one was a new in box




The warranty card





The register it card.
Something tells me this would be returned to sender





The parts list





Came with free stuff





The envelope with filters still sealed





Original staple still intact





Also has a Bianchi belt light holder





The end of the box stamped to show the model





Noteable difference in anodize colors
Everywhere on the light is like the left picture with the tailcap being jet black. 

Even though the head is larger than the small head light there's no discernable difference in weight. 

I don't think this light will be used very often but will likely live in the 'stash' box of NIP/NIB lights.


----------



## konifans

Wow! NIB! Where did you get that? 
I am always looking for a 2C B-Lite in good condition. Did B-Lite produce a 2C size? Anyone have one and would like to sell it please drop me a PM


----------



## bykfixer

^^ It was definitely an epic score to this flashlight junkie. 
Some dude from Montana sold it on eBay. One of those sellers with a plethora of various items for sale either from estate sales of grandpas attic...

The picture of the 'register it card' (8th photo down) shows a 2-7 cell C size was made. 
The 2C was my first choice as well, yet 3C and D size flashlights are starting to grow on me. That extra voltage of the 3rd cell gave them such a boost while still being a relatively small package, especially the type where it's batteries from bulb to tailcap like early Kel-Lites and the B-Lites. 

Too bad the Abtomat thread pictures got screwed up. I'm supposing he has/had a C size B-Lite or two.


----------



## LiftdT4R

bykfixer said:


> Some details
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look! A Kel-Lite bulb fastener.



Nice score. I put in a last second bid on that myself. Ya should have let me know you were bidding on it, I wouldn't have hit ya for a few extra bucks at the end.

I don't think that is a first gen Kel-Lite bulb holder. I have a bunch of 1st gen Kel-Lites and they all look like the one below. A lot of the first gens have later replacements though because people would drop batteries down the tube and crack the brittle plastic of the bulb holders. I am fairly sure Don put those Kel-Lites together recently to sell out of his only store and they seem to be a mix of parts that were NOS. I noticed the one has a bezel that looks awfully similar to a Streamlight.


----------



## bykfixer

Interesting.

The bulb fastener and reflector came from a latter year 1st gen 4C I won and Don told me he was a bidder (for parts) but dropped out when the price reached more than he wanted to spend. I swapped it into the face cap in the photo. The 2nd gen bulb fasteners I've seen were tan and did not have the sleeve. Perhaps it was an upgrade for warranty claims, like when Bennett skateboard trucks were sold with plastic base plates, but upgrades (metal base plates) were available for warranty claims in about 1977. (About the time UFO released the epic tune Lights Out in London)

The NIB B-Lite had a last second 4th bidder who placed the last bid according to eBay. Since 10 people were watching I figured it woulda sold for a lot higher.
I showed a coworker the auction when the bid was still in the $20+ range and told him I thought it may grab $200. 

I see a lot of stuff that's interesting but when I see you had bid first I generally don't. I thought you had a 2nd gen for peanuts recently, and with a few hours left. Whomever won it got it for a good price, but way more I thought you'd snagged it for. I last minute first bidder on a 3C Radio Shack light instead. I found it with like 14 minutes left. (The one in the post before the 3D B-Lite post)


----------



## konifans

*Truax Nightstalker
*
I won two 3V Nightstalker flashlights on Ebay and I will receive them next week. So here are the photos from the seller, I will post some more photos when I get them.






































I know nothing when I placed a bid on these lights, there is nothing on the internet. 
According to the information from the above photos and the seller, the lights were designed by Robert Truax, in CA. 
And they were designed for the ASP baton. So clearly they are cop lights from CA.

I sent an email to Don Keller and asked if he knows anything about it. And I got the answers that I am looking for:



> _ The light was originally designed for the ASP baton but after some use ASP found that the bulb would break when closing the expandable bataon. This was about 1996-7. At that time Kevin Parsons of ASP came to me and I designed the TacLite baton light and started an engineering division of ASP. Truax made a few other lights at that time but they did not sell and the compnay folded a short time later. After I left ASP Maglite sued ASP over the name and ASP changed the name to Triad. - Don Keller, 2017 August_



So the ASP flashlights appeared because of these Truax lights and Don Keller, and they are all from CA. although the ASP lights were not produced in CA. (?) 

Edit:
I have some more photos in this new thread:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?438388-Truax-Nightstalker&p=5130368#post5130368


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## bykfixer

Epic score.

Even more epic info!!


----------



## irongate

Nice to know we are not bidding against each other here for these items.:thumbsup:


----------



## bykfixer

Just saw this serial number on a 2nd gen 2D Kel-Lite.
My thinking was the lettering was "KA", KB",KC" etc, or no letters.


----------



## bykfixer

First vintage cop light in a while arrived. 

Advertised as a Maglite from the 1960's that was used by a retired police officer, I scooped up this like new mid 80's 2D Maglite for about the price of a steak dinner at a restaurant chain plus a nominal shipping fee. 

A pre-D serial number in the 600k's it was 246 away from being #700k. (699754 for those in Yorba-Linda). 





Much nicer than the one I already had. 
The ugly one will get modified with a pair of 26mm cells and a 6 cell bulb to make it a sleeper light. 





Outfitted with an acrylite lens from flashlightlensdotcom.
Allows 94% light through a slightly difused lens vs the stock one at about 92%. But the difusion really cleans up the beam of a stock 2D krypton. 

All but the lens o-ring were in great shape, but I replaced 'em anyway. New reflector too. Everything inside was nice n shiney even though there was evidence of an alkaleak at what appears to have been at the bottom of the up front battery at one point. I put on a lanyard ring'd tailcap and a new WhiteStar bulb. 

I like showing my friends and family a 2D Maglite. They always comment "how bright those things used to be" in this day n age of all things LED. I absolutely love, love, love those 1970's cop lights, but there was something special about those Maglites in the 1980's. 

America was in a good mood. The economy was booming. Disco was gone. Radio stations were pumping out Elvis Costello, the Cars, Echo & the Bunneymen etc. Cable tv was exploding like an atomic bomb giving the masses 23 channels to pick from, ESPN was born, Richard Petty won his 200th and the 2D Maglite was available to the masses and was known as the one that no longer required a whack to the palm to burn nice n bright. 

My first son was born around the time this light was made as well.... so this recent acquisition is certainly stirring up some friendly old ghosts... rip mr policeman who once owned this light....


----------



## LiftdT4R

Very clean looking! Time to put that bad boy to use. 

How's about a vintage California trucker's light post? I recently picked up a Kel-Lite Stud-Lite on flea-bay. It's shown below with one of my 3D Vari-Beams. There's a black one up currently that I'll be a bidder on too.






For those that don't know, Stud-Lite was Kel-lite's attempt at marketing outside the law enforcement market. Norm Nelson, Kel-Lite's 2nd president after Don, came from Per-Lux, an truck lighting manufacturer so he believed there was market for flashlights geared towards truckers. He wasn't correct and Stud-Lites were short lived. I want to say they were produced from 1976 to 1978. I have some more pics and some Stud-lite memorabilia I'll post up soon too. The light is identical to a medium head D cell Kel-Lite. I think these were only produced in medium heads. I've seen them in 2 -3 D and C cell. Longer lights are possible but I haven't seen them.


----------



## bykfixer

Good score on that blue Stud-Lite. All I'd ever seen was black... in 3D. But a 2D with medium head sounds like a well balanced light. 3D even better. 

I see lots of good California Cop Lights at the Bay lately, but my little hoarde is pretty complete these days. 

That Truax mentioned recently was an epic score by konifans. Good stuff.

I couldn't bare to just stash that ugly 2D Maglite so it got a PR xenon and some Rayovacs. Noticeably brighter at a wall 10' and a cleaner beam than the krypton. And I just _had_ to have a lanyard tailcap, so I scored a sub $18 one from eCops (my favorite Streamlight parts seller). 

Best of luck on the black Stud-Lite. Perhaps a side by side 2g Kel-Lite vs a Stud-Lite is in order to show whether or not they differ beyond the bezel and tailcap. Do parts cross match, etc etc.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Thanks! Lol, I hope I have that complete feeling one day. I am really really really on the lookout for a Kel-Lite Baton Light now that I have my 7D Mag.

That was an epic score! I hadn't even heard of the Truax light and I didn't know about it's connection to ASP or Don Keller. I'll be on the lookout for one too.

All the parts on the Kel-Lite and Stud-Lite are identical with the exception of the end cap which is stamped differently. I also thought I'd post a picture of my humble 1st Gen Kel-Lite collection. I just finished restoring the 4C.


----------



## bykfixer

Konifans mentioned a 3C Kel-Lite and it's been bouncing around my brain lately. I have a 3C Legend and a 3C Maglite (plus a few 3C ML25 magz).... so there is that... so I may end up adding a 3C Kel-Lite.

Well that only lasted a day. I scooped up a Camel cigarettes promo 3D Maglite for a good price.




I like tobacco product promos.
At one point Camel was a huge sponsor for motorcycle racing so I try to collect some products from that period.

Edit: looks like an R pre-panther bezel (best I can tell in the sellers fuzzy photo), so it may have been made at a time when everybody racing Super Bike was fighting for 2nd back while Migel Duhamel was dominating out front on his Camel sponsored Honda (edit; the Ducati was in the 010 season, but I coulda sworn he rode for Ducati back then. end edit). Meanwhile everybody racing in the Camel Supercross was wearing mud from the rear tire of Jeremy McGraths competition annihilating Honda.


----------



## bykfixer

The Camel promo arrived.
The seller said it had a few knicks from setting in a drawer for a long time. My question upon arrival was it a drawer full of nails and screws in the bed of a pickup truck that went off road often... but I digress.

The pleasant surprise was that the body was still over-sized at that point.




Pre-panther...
makes me think based on input from Lift'd this was 2nd half of the 90's. 





Will require the old style parts if repair is needed.





No "D" yet in the S/N





2.7 million made at this point




Here it is versus a 2015 2D incan.

This one 'feels' lighter than the older 3D models but without checking the mils I cannot tell, and really don't plan to.
The knurling is the same as newer Mags yet feels a bit more grippy. Perhaps that's from useage, or perhaps from sitting in a drawer. 

I just thought it was a cool light to show where things still stood in the late 90's world of remaining California Cop Light makers. Maglite being one of the few remaining.
It was about that time that PK was experimenting with RC car batteries n automotive headlamps in an effort to create smaller/brighter cop lights and soon after SureFire exploded on the scene like an atomic bomb.





Still has the Patented Made in USA marking


----------



## 1pt21

bykfixer said:


> The Camel promo arrived.
> The seller said it had a few knicks from setting in a drawer for a long time. My question upon arrival was it a drawer full of nails and screws in the bed of a pickup truck that went off road often... but I digress.



LMFAO... Come on Byk, it doesn't look THAT bad..... Does it???

J/K, but sweet score. I have a soft spot for ANY engraved mags, even if they weren't officially released by mag themselves. Unfortunately most I find are of the AA/AAA variation (I actually collect any and all I come across). Hopefully you got a good price on er'...

:candle:


----------



## bykfixer

Oh, the price was fantastic and the seller got it to me coast to coast in like 3 days. 

The light in photos looks good, but the tiny scratches all over it are what made me wonder "what else was in that drawer".... but it's got character. I like the 'it was used a lot' look on these.





I like the old silk screen'd type. 

Yeah, you mostly see the smaller Maglites in promo versions, I suppose due to the cost per unit versus buying 1000 at a time or what-have-you. My boss has a green 3D rolling around the floor of her Tacoma with a local (to her area) rock quarry logo that was silk screened to it long ago. She's offered to give it to me a number of times but I decline knowing that light is something special from her younger days when she was an Engineer in Training. 
Sometimes I'll joke with her and ask if the guy she bashed over the head to take it from ever recovered. 
(She's a very attractive lady you used to put up with a lot of unsavory comments from construction workers back then).

The 3D Camel will be placed in a 'suddenly lights out' spot in my home where it can also double as an intruder stopper.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Very nice! That is going to be a 1990 or 1991 Transitional Light. I did a blog post on those at: http://maglitehistory.blogspot.com/2017/06/1990-and-1991-transitional-maglites.html

Basically in 1990 Maglite started modernizing their lights. They reduced the grip size and went to laser etching on bezels instead of stamping. In 1992 they then reduced the barrel size and added the panther logo to produce the same incan light they still make today. The 3,700,000 serial is towards the end of 1991. 1990 is also about the time Mag started offering custom etching on lights too. I think I shared my Chevron one that was done for one of their Southern California refineries close to Mag Instrument. 

I believe these were all laser etched and not screen printed if they were done by Mag Instrument or at least that's what folks that used to work there told me. It makes sense seeing how all of the logos were white. If they were screen printed they'd be available in a variety of colors. I'm not sure that screen printing would be durable enough for the light too.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Also, you might be intersted in the D cell Quick Dating Guide I put together: http://maglitehistory.blogspot.com/2017/08/d-cell-quick-dating-guide.html

"Paten Pending lights ran from 1979 to early 1981. "Patented Made in USA" lights ran from late 1981 to 2002. The "Patented in USA" lights ran from 2003 to 2009. From 2010+ there is no Patent marking.

Also, a pic of my laser etched Chevron light from the Rare Maglites Thread. I just checked and it's a 4,000,000 serial and from 1991 so your Camel one is just a tad older.


----------



## bykfixer




----------



## LiftdT4R

I wonder how much Camel Cash one would have to part with to get a fancy light like that? I smoked a pack every 2 or 3 days and all I got was a lousy rain jacket.


----------



## LiftdT4R

I picked up a second Stud-Lite recently so I just wanted to post an updated pic with a couple of my Vari-Beams.






I'm moving at the beginning of November to a bigger place so I'm hoping to display all of my lights, Maglites and others in one place. Right now I'm in a super small place and I have them scattered every where so I'm really looking forward to that and I think it will make for a great photo op.


----------



## bykfixer

You got it. Yaaay!! 

I saw a 2nd gen stock light with a black button on eBay back in late spring. Looked like it was in nice shape. It may have been an auction where the light being sold had a large and a small head with it. 

Best regards in the move.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Thanks! I'm not sure what the deal is with the black vs. red button. I've seen Stud-Lites and Kel-lites with either or. I personally think the black looks better but they seem to be pretty rare.


----------



## bykfixer

Black button on the Stud-Lite is definitely lookin' good.

Are they 3D cell? I really like the balance of a medium head 3D Kel-Lite. I have a small head 2nd gen 2D that's balanced well but have never tried the medium head on it.

It just dawned on me the Kel-Lite on auction with a black button'd switch was also pop riveted to the light....


If anyone is interested eCops at eBay has 4 more lanyard ring tail caps for the older D cell Maglite. $20.51 shipped. They had 5 but the Camel light is getting one. I bought the last $16.85 one they had for the "1960's" 2D Maglite mentioned a few posts ago.


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## LiftdT4R

They are! They're very similar in size and weight to a 2D Maglite. I did not notice until you mentioned it that the switch is riveted on. That must be the difference between the black and red button. The riveted switch looks like it would be a real pain to service so I'm glad this one is in good shape. I couldn't imagine why Kel-Lite would do that. I wouldn't think it would be much cheaper that using machine screws.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Y'all are probably going to ban me for being off topic so much in this thread but I just don't have any place else to post!!

Here's a couple pics of a very very rare light I'm in the process of restoring. It is a Tru Grit light, an early Kel-Lite knock off. That in itself is very rare because these lights were produced for only a very short time before being sued by John Wayne. I know you'd think Don Keller, but the Duke was more protective of his copyrights than Don was. Not only is it a Tru Grit but it's very very rare custom order Tru Grit. Tru Grit was based in Cleveland, OH and mostly supplied first responders. However, this machine shop, Guild International, ordered a few of these 3Ds anodized gold and engraved with their. I don't have much info on Tru Grit because they existed for such a short period of time but from what I hear the owner of Guild International was friends with the owner of Tru Grit and these were done for him. The light sat with batteries in it for years and I'm currently soaking it and trying to get it apart without damaging it. I got 1 segment apart so far. I hope to have pics of it restored to all its former glory shortly.











Also, I'm a terrible photographer but I thought I'd share a pic of some of my duplicate Maglites and some of my other vintage lights. I'm going to get everything together in one place one of these days and take a big group shot.


----------



## bykfixer

A Tru-Grit is perfectly appropriate for this thread. Inspired by the California Cop Light afterall.

If I ever find a Radio Shack knock off of the 1G Kel-Lite Ima certainly add it the this... made in Hong Kong and all. 

Maybe I'll post some pix of the Chinese made LA Screw Code 4 knock off made by Brinkmann? lol


----------



## irongate

As always a lot of good information here to learn about these old lights,

Have fun moving there TR4, I have moved over 36 times in my life and getting tired of it but have one more coming up next year.


----------



## LiftdT4R

irongate said:


> As always a lot of good information here to learn about these old lights,
> 
> Have fun moving there TR4, I have moved over 36 times in my life and getting tired of it but have one more coming up next year.



Thanks!! Wow, I couldn't even image! I've only moved once so far and this will be my second and hopefully last. My wife thinks we need a U-Haul, little does she know I'm getting a dumpster instead.


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## bykfixer

Alright Lift'd... let's change gears to knock off's of these great lights for a few ticks...





1) the 3C Radio Shack knock off of the 3D Code 4 by LA Screw. Circa 1999+. Focus head like a Maglite. Bulb and switch assembly not unlike a Brinkmann Legend. Made in Hong Kong.
2) a genuine 3D cell Code 4 circa 1976+. Clicky switch by GT Price. Made in California.
3) the Brinkmann 3D (post Legend) when Brinkmann had acquired the rights to said Code 4. Circa 2000+. Bulb and switch assembly not unlike a Brinkmann Legend. Made in China
4) the Pro-Light 4D knock off by GreatLite. Still in production. Focus head, switch n bulb assembly similar to Maglite. Made in China. The barrel has a removeable end to turn it into a 2D. 

https://s19.postimg.cc/xnbibrlab/IMG_20171003_193704.jpg

1) Maglite's 2D
2) arguably a Maglite 2D knock off by Streamlight shortly after acquiring Kel-Lite from Norm Nelson. Vastly different workings but was hailed as an alternative to the D Mag. Available 2-7 D size. Built in California and possibly Pennsilvania in the mid 1980's. 
(Note: the later Streamlight Excalibure was deemed copyright infringing due to stampings on the bezel like Maglites and nearly wiped out Streamlight until the US government allowed Streamlight to sell them a bunch of Scorpions, which back then were considered SureFire 6P knockoffs)

But the winner for my favorite knock off goes to:




This one by Don Keller.
A knock off of a Radio Shack knock off of a 1st gen Kel-Lite. Don never produced a 1st gen with a medium head. Radio Shack did.
Don did however assemble a few 1st gens with spare parts this year, some using medium heads. Made for a movie set about cops in the 1970's.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Nice, what is the quality like on these Chinese lights? Do they look like they could take a lickin and keep on tickin? I imagine there's not going to be parts or any kind of warranty support like there would be on the American lights but otherwise how would you say they stack up? I always try to buy American but I am impressed with a lot of Asian stuff.


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## bykfixer

The greatlite would make a good surpressor perhaps... a flashlight shaped paper weight... but it's not very sturdy. Perhaps a good host, because the barrel is pretty cool along with the anti-roll device tailcap. It has potential to be a good light but definitely not a great one... pun intended.

The Radio Shack one is decent. Probably more reliable than the Code 4 with an as you know, the peculiar conductor set up.

The Brinkmann was the first flashlight I did not like. What a piece of junk. I've got some junk, but they are super-duper-cheapo numbers from days when that was not a surprise. The folks at Brinkmann really cheap'd out on their version of the Code 4. 

Probably no parts available. I would suspect they'd just send you another light for warranty claims.


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## LiftdT4R

I figured I'd post a pic of my completed Tru Grit. This one didn't come out as good as I'd hoped and was about the closest I've ever come to trashing a light. The battery corrosion was so bad that I almost ruined the light trying to remove the end cap. It's a little marred up but I did fix it up with the dremel a little. It does work now and since it's so rare I will display it with the rest of my collection. These are overall pretty stout lights. The knurling is about the heaviest I've ever seen on a light. I personally like it but I could see how it would be rough on a holster or palms. I'd like to own a full size 7 cell one eventually too. They are really neat with their segmentable barrels and a real oddity in cop light history.


----------



## StuGatz

[email protected] said:


> I just posted on the "Where's all the old timers?" thread. Been here since 2001. Seems like just 27 years ago I was being called a "young upstart" when I started the company. The collection photo is about 12 years old; It's considerably expanded over the years. Here's 3 of my faves:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L to R, all Eveready- 1903 police lantern (Wood), 1911 Low profile switch (first model with a slide switch), 1913 "Baby" 2 C-cell (Now converted to LED & still works!)



Wow! Talk about vintage! Outstanding contribution.


----------



## bykfixer

Scored a 2x aaa Sigmalite kit recently thanks to a tip by Lift'd. Thanks bro. 

It's similar in size to the 2x aa light and functions pretty much the same way. The bulb it came with was a t10 type with a larger globe than those tiny bi-pins of the mini mag genre lights. It glows a dull yellow like an older style flashlight. When I swapped in a Sigmalite bulb things came to life. (Now the BrightStar t10 bulbs burn brighter than mini mag type so I don't know what the deal is/was)

The kit came with a lanyard ring and a bulb dispenser. Both very novel and very cool ideas. 

The beam on both size lights is a lot nicer than a Maglite and I reasoned it to be the bulb. But when I swapped the Sigma bulb into a Maglite I saw very similar artifacts as with a Mag bulb. It seems once again Don Keller had out Mag'd Maglite yet again. First with a clicky tailcap that momentaries, and also a nicer beam. 
The tripe A was made in 86. The double A in 87.





The kit.
Appologies for the fuzzy pix. My phone cam keeps defaulting to smaller aperature and longer shutter speeds.





Instructions explain the lanyard ring





Bulb dispenser is simple genious





Note the two logo styles.
It seems that later Sigmalites have differing logo styles and lettering.
Top is the newer





Older vs newer lettering styles
Top is the newer





Two styles of bulb fasteners.
Left is the newer type. Note, right is a t10 bulb for those curious about what one looks like.





Double A vs Triple A





Versus familiar items.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Very nice!!! A short lived but very interesting light! One I regret passing up too but with my move I've been a little short on funds lately.

I always got a kick out of these lights. They look like a tiny Pro-Light!


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## bykfixer

Yeah, it's too bad Sigmalites never really made it out of the starting block. They had some revolutionary thinking going on over there. But investors want their money back *now* and seemingly did not want to wait out market forces to discover the Sigmalite brand.

You didn't miss out that bad on this one...The 2x aaa needs a transplant surgery in that the spring is missing. I managed to get it to light using an inkpen spring, but the batteries got very warm very quickly so that was quickly ceased. The bulb retainer is fastened very well to the barrel in what appears to have been pushed in from tail end. There is enough alkaleak residue on the barrel wall to cause the battery insertion to meet with resistance. A good scour of the wall needs to take place before attempting to push the bulb retainer out. 
It's one of those I know how to, but may not ever actually do it things partly because of so many other projects in the pipeline already and partly the whole notion of restoring flashlights is being replaced with other things.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Those fixer uppers are my favorite but yeah I hear ya on the project list. My wife is making me move to a proper house and I can just see all the expensive and time consuming projects coming down. I'm thinking about thinning out some of the doubles and lights in my collection that I'm not super into. I'm hoping I still have time and funds to chase lights I really want and work on projects that interested me.

First expense up is a plow for my JK. Gotta post my WTT: Vintage Mags for a Boss Plow thread.


----------



## konifans

Got a Kel-Lite 7D on Ebay.
I like this light because it has a 3-inch large head. 











Kel-Lite 7D v.s. Maglite 2C





Kel-Lite 7D v.s. Maglite 6D. The Kel-Lite is half inch longer than the Mag.


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## LiftdT4R

Nice score!! That Kel-Lite looks brand new! I like the lanyard ring end cap too. That would have been a beast to carry on a lanyard. Was it a recent ebay score? I don't remember seeing it. There's a 7D on there now but the seller wants a good $$ and it doesn't work. I have a connection for 1st gen Kel-Lite parts but no connection for 2nd or 3rd gen parts so 2nd gens can be tough to get working again.


----------



## konifans

LiftdT4R said:


> Nice score!! That Kel-Lite looks brand new! I like the lanyard ring end cap too. That would have been a beast to carry on a lanyard. Was it a recent ebay score? I don't remember seeing it. There's a 7D on there now but the seller wants a good $$ and it doesn't work. I have a connection for 1st gen Kel-Lite parts but no connection for 2nd or 3rd gen parts so 2nd gens can be tough to get working again.



Yes I got it 10 days ago at US$60, plus $30 shipping cost to Hong Kong. I am the first and only bidder because the seller listed it as "KEL-TEK INDUSTRIES". Luckily the light has no battery leakage issue and the reflector is very clean. I think it should work for a few more decades.


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## bykfixer

Another epic score KF!!

That tailcap is pretty rare too. 
It could be used as a shoulder strap fastener like old Rayovac Sportsman came with. Perhaps meant to fasten a strap at both ends and be carried bezel down like a ladies purse or something?
I imagine walking periously along the edge of a mountain side goat path with a wrist lanyard on it and whoops, it slipped out of my hands and the weight of all those D cells pulls me over the edge resulting in some scene out of some movie where the hero tumbles to his death... lol ....uh, no thanks. 

Anyway, thanks for the comparison photos as well. That larger head multiplies the throw quite a bit and makes it light up the woods much broader. I compared all three head sizes and the medium is a great compromise, yet the larger head makes these old lights look pretty bright. 

If you can find them the KPR118 bulbs are nice replacements. They'll burn a bit brighter than a PR20. Zbattery has Maglite branded PR20's.


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## konifans

bykfixer said:


> Another epic score KF!!
> 
> That tailcap is pretty rare too.
> It could be used as a shoulder strap fastener like old Rayovac Sportsman came with. Perhaps meant to fasten a strap at both ends and be carried bezel down like a ladies purse or something?
> I imagine walking periously along the edge of a mountain side goat path with a wrist lanyard on it and whoops, it slipped out of my hands and the weight of all those D cells pulls me over the edge resulting in some scene out of some movie where the hero tumbles to his death... lol ....uh, no thanks.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the comparison photos as well. That larger head multiplies the throw quite a bit and makes it light up the woods much broader. I compared all three head sizes and the medium is a great compromise, yet the larger head makes these old lights look pretty bright.
> 
> If you can find them the KPR118 bulbs are nice replacements. They'll burn a bit brighter than a PR20. Zbattery has Maglite branded PR20's.



Thanks mate! The KPR118 should be a 7.2V bulb? I have some Maglite's 6-cell (7.2V) xenon PR bulbs but I am afraid that the life will be too short if running 7 cells. I already ordered some CEC PR20 bulbs, that should work well although it is just a 4 watts bulb. I found that CEC PR20 selling very cheap here:

http://www.memotronics.com/box-of-10-bulbs-pr20-miniature-flanged-flashlight-bulb-8-63v-0-5a-4-315w/
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Box-of-10-...507247?hash=item5d4a4cd2ef:g:G9oAAOSw~gRV6Jdg


----------



## bykfixer

I have a kpr118 in my 7D Dog Supply House light. Yeah, the lifespan is definitely going to be less than the PR20. 
I tried a conventional 6 cell bulb (pre-krypton) and got an insta-poof. But the KPR118 has a couple of hours on it. 

I get my bulbs from the same place you cited. Good prices, good service and the Eiko brand (labled CEC) have a nice clean beam. 





The early 1960's 6D Dog Supply House search and rescue light with a 'hi-bred' 1 cell extension versus the 3 head sizes by Kel-Lite.


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## LiftdT4R

konifans said:


> Yes I got it 10 days ago at US$60, plus $30 shipping cost to Hong Kong. I am the first and only bidder because the seller listed it as "KEL-TEK INDUSTRIES". Luckily the light has no battery leakage issue and the reflector is very clean. I think it should work for a few more decades.



Sweet!! Lol, I am always amazed at the descriptions on some of these lights. Bykfixer has the one and only NYPD Maglite from the early 1960s.


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## bykfixer

Lol, and it has a lanyard ring tailcap.

Like the term "Kel-Tek" lead you to the 7D konifans, an ad that said "1960's Maglite" led me to one from the early 90's from the estate of a retired New York police man.


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## konifans

The tailcap is so deep so it can store 3 spare bulbs. I have received the CEC PR20, a 8.6V 0.5A Chinese made Vacuum bulb. Actually most of the CEC flashlight bulbs I purchased are made in China. Not as good as those made in Germany, Japan or USA but we do not have so many choices these days. The CEC PR20 in the right has a wider filament so the beam is not as round as the stock bulb "Hollanda". They have similar brightness, looks as bright as a 4-cell flashlight. But man I am not looking for brightness but vintage stuff.







Maglite 4C (Bi-pin Xenon bulb) v.s. Kel-Lite 7D (PR20)









Maglite 6D v.s. Kel-Lite 7D


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## konifans

I only use Eneloop in these vintage lights. 
These are AA to D cell adapters. The Panasonic is the best, the Fujitsu is very good. Others are junk.




















The left one is a Panasonic C cell battery (3000mah), the right one is a Panasonic AA to C cell adapter, that is better than the old Sanyo's version.










Fujitsu, Sanyo eneloop and Panasonic eneloop are just the same thing and made from the same factory (FDK) in Japan. 
Recently some Panasonic eneloops are made in China, they are not as good as those made in Japan. 


In Japan, they have Panasonic C or D cell low self discharge Ni-Mh batteries.
They are actually made from 4xAAA 750mah eneloop and 3xAA 1900mah eneloop batteries, so they are rated 3000mah for C cell and 5700mah for D cell.
Unfortunately they do not export these good stuff. 
So if you are visiting Japan or if you can find a way to get it from Amazon.jp (they do not ship overseas), these are the best for the C or D cell lights.


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## bykfixer

Holland made are my favorite for #112's and 222's. Tung Sol for PR based stuff were super nice. Made for automotive purposes in the 1960's they were pretty durable too. Chicago Miniature had some good ones too. But all of those are pre-krypton so they don't burn as bright and don't last very long over driven. 

I like those CEC/Eiko bulbs for the money. The shape of the globe seems to make them a bit more throwey, which in a Vintage California Cop Light is a good thing. Yet those Maglite bulbs are tough to beat. 
If you can find them, Brinkmann had bulbs that rivaled Maglite bulbs in durability and beam shape.

Edit: Don Keller said while he was at Kel-Lite he used Phillips or GE in those lights depending on price and/or availability back then.


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## bykfixer

Thanks to a tip by Lift'd a very rare California Cop Light company 2x AAA light kit is enroute to the Bykfixer museum.




Sigmalite made Kershaw edition.
In 1987 LTI made a deal with Kershaw and Snap On to build some stuff. Apparently there was a knife and light kit by Kershaw sold by Snap On. This one is Kershaw branded. The knife looks pretty sweet too. 

This was icing on the cake of a pretty sweet week. 
More pix when it arrives. 
(I bought the kit for the light to use as a go by for a proper repair to the 2x AAA Sigmalite shown a few posts up)


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## LiftdT4R

Very nice!! I'm digging it! These Sigmalites seem to pop up every once in a while and then never again for a long long time!


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## konifans

bykfixer said:


>


Mr. Fixer, I have a question: are the heads interchangeable?


----------



## bykfixer

LiftdT4R said:


> Very nice!! I'm digging it! These Sigmalites seem to pop up every once in a while and then never again for a long long time!



I was surprised you didn't bite on it, but know you mainly focus on Maglites. 



konifans said:


> Mr. Fixer, I have a question: are the heads interchangeable?



Yup, they all interchange on the D size.
I only recall one size head on the C size. I've seen a few tail cap shapes (pre-bulb holder type) but have only seen one tailcap in any size with the Kel-Lite logo.(see post #152)


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## irongate

bykfixer said:


> Thanks to a tip by Lift'd a very rare California Cop Light company 2x AAA light kit is enroute to the Bykfixer museum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sigmalite made Kershaw edition.
> In 1987 LTI made a deal with Kershaw and Snap On to build some stuff. Apparently there was a knife and light kit by Kershaw sold by Snap On. This one is Kershaw branded. The knife looks pretty sweet too.
> 
> This was icing on the cake of a pretty sweet week.
> More pix when it arrives.
> (I bought the kit for the light to use as a go by for a proper repair to the 2x AAA Sigmalite shown a few posts up)



Very nice score there. Sweet deal I must say.
Taking a break from packing.


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## bykfixer

LiftdT4R said:


> Very nice!! I'm digging it! These Sigmalites seem to pop up every once in a while and then never again for a long long time!



Don't forget to not pack a couple few flashlights... 
Hate when looking for one only to remember it's packed... but which box?...


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## bykfixer

Mr. Postman dropped off some goodies today. One was shown to arrive today. Two were not. 
First unexpected was a Tana drop in I was tap'd to test drive in my E2D, and although not related to this thread I was thrilled it arrived already. 

The next package was that Kershaw edition Snap On sold knife and light kit. 
Basically the Kershaw 2x AAA light was exactly like the Sigmalite shown in post 209 except it's Snap On red. Even down to the t10 bulb. 










Pretty cool knife too

The knife appears to have never been used. Same with the light. This kit will go in my safe.

Then a 3 cell Kel-Lite CPL was the one expected. Konifans inspired this one. It has enough blemishes to not hesitate to call it a user, but... with a pair of 18650's and a 5 cell PR base'd Maglite xenon bulb she packs quite a punch. 




Carries like a small light. Shines like a big one. 





2, 3 and 4 cell CPL's.
The 2 cell is the brightest with 2x 18500 LifePo's, a 4 cell xenon and ultraclear acrylic.
The 4 cell is close with its 4 Rayovacs, a 3 cell xenon and a slightly difused acrylic lens. The 3 cell rivals a 6 cell light with its ugly old early 70's lens. But an ultraclear glass will be used for that one soon. 

That's it for now.


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## LiftdT4R

While we're on super rare branded lights I've had this one for a while and I've been meaning to post it. It's a 2nd Gen Kel-Lite large head branded as a Safariland. In the mid 70s Safariland did not have its own flashlights and was a growing police equipment distributor. Safariland partnered with Kel-Lite, then under Norm Nelson, to produced a special run of Kel-Lites with the Safariland logo stamped into the tail. The lights sold poorly and the business arrangement ended quickly. Not more than a 1,000 or so were produced. Safariland later came out with their Polaris line of lights which unfortunately didn't sell too well either. 











The light is identical to a 2nd Gen Kel-Lite. It has the later style riveted switch. I'm not sure why Kel-Lite switched to this rivet style and if anyone has any info I'd be interested in hearing about it. It seems like more expensive and more difficult to maintain so I'm not sure why it was done. As with other riveted switches it has a black momentary contact button instead of red. The light is in pristine condition. Unlike the lights in my prior post this one was actually owned and used by a California cop. He did not like the flood beam of the large head and went back to his first gen small head Kel-Lite only weeks after purchasing this light. It went un-used up until recently when he sold it after cleaning out his home. Hope you guys enjoy!!!


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## bykfixer

Very cool.

No idea why they went the rivet route. Maybe it was "faster" to assemble?

I think Safariland ended up swallowing up a bunch of companies, or at least distributed them. John Bianchi leather products for example and Monodnock stuff too. It's like they ended up either owning the police accessory supply companies or played a role in their distribution along the way, eventually becoming a big outfit.


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## bykfixer

Got this baby in the mail today.




A Sigmalite prototype of an item that was never produced.
It was rumored to be a 1x AA but instead was a 2x N (LR91) that out mini's the minimag by being a mini-me-mini-mag with a clicky. 

Sigmalite through and through with backwards batteries and all. 
Takna makes a 3 volt battery for their micro-lith that would replace the 2 N cells but those suckers are $5 each. I bought 20 of these PKCell batteries for $12 shipped. 

How's the beam, you ask.... well it's about like a solitaire with the T10 bulb it came with. Insertion of a MiniMag xenon and things come alive. The switch on it is a bit fickle, but hey man it's a prototype. No biggy. Never thinking I'd use my busted 2x AAA Sigmalite for parts I tried the switch from that one and things got stable. No more flickering in the beam.

For clarity, this one came from member Lift'd who had gotten it from none other than Don Keller. It's apparently the only one ever made. 
I would suppose with it being incandecent inefficient and using tiny N cells, the run time would have been short. I may try one of those 3 volt Tekna that should last at least as long as a triple A being slightly longer with a very slightly larger girth. But again, being this was the only one made I'm more focused on the "shelf life" and where to display it.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Awesome!! Glad ya got her working and all lit up. Don thought is was a 1 AA but I never could find an AA that worked so the N cells make sense. You're gonna be the go to guy for Sigmalites from now on! I thing you may own 90% of the remaining ones.

I got your 6R. Looks great, thanks!! I just gotta find an M61W now to drop in it along with a 16650 li-ion. Thanks for the extra switch too. Is it a Malkoff? I have a feeling it's going to make me put together an MD1 now.


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## LiftdT4R

I dropped a couple CR123 batteries in the old 6R and got it up and running. I was off for the holiday yesterday so I made up a lanyard for it too from paracord. I'm digging the light. I'll eventually get a 16650 and an M61W for it but for now I'm, gonna run it as-is. The stock incan puts out a nice beam. Does anyone know the original run on these 6Rs? I know the 6P classics in this style ran from like 88 to 01. For those interested in the lanyard they are a really fun project and cheap too. Check out: http://stormdrane.blogspot.com/2011/05/adjustable-paracord-wrist-lanyard.html

Old School / New School


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## bykfixer

When SureFire started making flashlights that used those SLR camera batteries to achieve 6D bright with smaller than 2C size.... the California Cop Light was forever changed as much as Don Kellers ideas did in the late 1960's. 
Apparently Laser Products' "SureFire model" and Maglite both came out around the same time but... the Maglite exploded on the scene like an atomic bomb where that SureFire light was seen as an expensive novelty. 

Laser Products developed a light that was called "the Sure Fire". They got so many enquiries looking for a SureFire flashlight (not Laser Products flashlight) that the company name was changed a few years down the road. There was a Laser Products SureFire, later called the Laser Products 6, a Laser Products 6C, then Laser Products 6P. Believe it or not all 3 were discontinued along the way then later we saw the SureFire 6P (with a contreversal anti-roll head critics said would never catch on).


----------



## LiftdT4R

I thought Laser Products didn't start making flash lights until around 88 or so? I've seen a few original 6s here and there. They're the ones without the tail switch, they're just twisties. Pretty cool! I tried to buy one but the owner isn't looking to sell yet.


----------



## xxo

According to SF's FB timeline: the first product offered was an integral laser for the Colt Trooper .357 revolver in 1979 and the first flashlights running on "Duracell DR123 batteries" came out in 1988.


https://www.facebook.com/notes/surefire-llc/surefire-timeline/146795805372775/


----------



## bykfixer

Laser Products began with lasers, but Dr. John Matthews was also dabbling into other areas of personal protection devices including flashlights. Most of the early ideas never came to fruition. Now, the original flashlights were perfected by the late 1980's, but the ideas behind them go back to the early days. By '93 he had decided to focus on developing some of the early ideas, again many never going into full fledged production. 

PK is famous for his work with advancement of flashlights but was also helping in other areas that he has just now begun to resume as a consultant to other companies. Hearing protection and noise surpressors and things like that.


----------



## xxo

When did the CR123 cell come out?


----------



## bykfixer

Good question double X. 

I'll look it up. I do know early uses for it were things like SLR cameras, flashes for them and burglar alarms.

Brb...
I'm back.
Nothing definitive found yet... just that the lithium idea was first tried in 1922 with CR123's becoming publicly available "in the 1970's" according to Battery University.


----------



## LiftdT4R

This is the earliest patent I could find for John Matthews, it dates to 1992. There aren't any earlier ones cited which is a good indication it was his first for a flash light. I know not everyone always gets their patent in right away though so 1988 would sound about right for the first light from Laser Products. I don't think they would have gone any more than 4 or 5 years before patenting their design.


----------



## LiftdT4R

bykfixer said:


> Good question double X.
> 
> I'll look it up. I do know early uses for it were things like SLR cameras, flashes for them and burglar alarms.
> 
> Brb...
> I'm back.
> Nothing definitive found yet... just that the lithium idea was first tried in 1922 with CR123's becoming publicly available "in the 1970's" according to Battery University.



I was gonna say about early 80s is likely when they became commercially available. IIRC lithium ion batteries were still being developed in the late 70s. I think Exxon and Bell Labs were involved in their development.

CR123s have always been lithium ion, right?

EDIT: Wikipedia says they were first available commercially in 1991 from Sony.

EDIT 2: The Sure Fire trademark page says it's first use anywhere was 1989. These are usually within a year or so. https://trademarks.justia.com/761/87/sure-76187621.html


----------



## xxo

I remember having to buy CR123's in camera shops in the very late 80's or early 90's......they were the only ones that had them and they weren't cheap (cells were marked PHOTO or some such). Eventually surefire offered them in 12 packs for at much better prices and by the late 90's places like walmart were selling them as well. The military was also using CR123's at around this time (late 1980's and maybe earlier?) for night vision gear.


BTW, come to think of it SF might not have been the first to offer a CR123 powered light, I kind of remember someone (maybe Tekna?? or explorer??) who was selling a survival kit light that ran on a CR123 around the mid to late 80's.


CR123's are lithium primaries not to be confused with rechargeable lithium Ion.


EDIT -Apparently the CR123A was an improved version of the earlier CR2/3A with a modified electrolyte and a added PTC for safety, all according to this:

https://books.google.com/books?id=p...Q6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=cr 2/3a battery&f=false

the CR123A is said to have been "commercialized successfully" after 1987. Doesn't say when the CR2/3A came out.


----------



## bykfixer

Lithium primaries are shown as LiMn02 (lithium magnesium). The lithium ion are the rechargeable sold by Sony at first.
I'm still trying to find info on the first CR123's and figure the info will likely be found at camera sites from those SLR days. My first SLR, a Canon AE-1 from the 80's was the first time I saw a CR123 (I dated it as a 1981 model)... and they were like $14 ea back then. It used 2 of them and iirc you could only find them at a camera store. The first AE-1 in 1977 had a microprocessor for its built in light meter. Probably a power hungry little sucker at the time so I suspect that's how come CR123's were first used in cameras. The earlier AE-1's used a stack of button cells. 

SureFire and Streamlight both put a lot of R&D into their batteries for 6 series and Scorpions. 

Tekna had a 6 volt light called the MicroLith with a 123 breifly, but what year? I'll email Scott at Tektite and see if he knows.


----------



## bykfixer

Ya know? I really don't want to turn this one into a SureFire thread, yet they contributed so much to the California Cop Light genre in the late 80's forward that it would not be a complete historical reference if they were left out.

I'm still searching for CR123 history (along with the history of the triple A for some reason), because they have made such an impact on the flashlight world. 

But for now here's one that changed the game...





The fabled E series.
Like the C and D Maglites, these are still relevant and still evolving in late 2017 and seemingly in 2018 new E's and new Magchargers are slated...maybe late 017.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Very nice E series collection!!!! I'm very new to Surefires but I have feeling I'll be picking up a couple. Is the main difference with the E series the reduced head size?

Have ya seen Flashlight Guide for Surefire info? They are at: http://flashlightguide.com/2013/06/surefire-6r-rechargeable-flashlight/

They seem to have some really good info including the reasoning behind certain design features of the light as well as production years on light. For instance they say the 6R you sent me is from 1997 to 2001.

Also, does anyone know the best place to get a replacement lens for the older style lights? This would be the plastic lens that looks like it's pressed in on the round bezel lights.


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## bykfixer

Flashlight Lens dot com has P60 size lenses in stock. Glass or ultraclear plastics. He may still have some borofloat lenses in stock as well.

Great source for all kinds of replacement lenses for California Cop Lights including Kel-Lite sizes now.

I also tossed a few ultraclear lenses in the cart at the SolarForce site when placing an order there. Ended up using those in some Malkoff'd Rayovac 2aa indestructables and such. The glass is not the quality of those from FLL, but they're cheap and fit well.


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## LiftdT4R

Awesome! I think on the round bezel lights you can't use any kind of glass because the lens is pressed in rather than having the bezel ring unscrewed. Do you know if the UCL ones are the same size for the new and old lights? When I get my new old light I'll pull it out and check the diameter.


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## bykfixer

Apparently folks used to pop out the old one with a nail then slide in the new "replacement part that came with instructions" lol. Sounds like glass isn't an option in the Laser Products lights. 





Here's 2 E's vs a 6P





Comparision beam shots.
The E is more of a thrower with a huge spill. It's more of an officers light with rigorous use in mind.
The 6 is a general purpose lighter with a good throw while providing a better overall light to a given area and was built for heavy duty applications with better shock isolation.


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## ven

Damn blast damn and blast, off to go get my 6p and chuck the bulb in again! All it takes is a pic to show what i am missing:naughty:

Loving the "E"'s mr fixer


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## LiftdT4R

ven said:


> Damn blast damn and blast, off to go get my 6p and chuck the bulb in again! All it takes is a pic to show what i am missing:naughty:
> 
> Loving the "E"'s mr fixer



Lol, gotta keep the incan love alive!!

I was sooo tempted to Malkoff that 6R Mr. Fixer sent me and throw in a 16650 but I tell ya what, it sure does look purty with the P60 lamp and a couple CR123s.


----------



## ven

LiftdT4R said:


> Lol, gotta keep the incan love alive!!
> 
> I was sooo tempted to Malkoff that 6R Mr. Fixer sent me and throw in a 16650 but I tell ya what, it sure does look purty with the P60 lamp and a couple CR123s.



Its very easy for me to get caught up in the million lumens, sometimes its nice to get back to basics. Lumens are often taken for granted, click a switch and light up everything as day. As a fan of variety, breaking out a p61(ran on 2x cr123 at 1st, then swapped to a 16650 4.35v), the tight focused beam............all that CRI.................love it! 

It nearly went in a 6p, but decided on the m2 for a change(there must have been a cop in cali who used an m2)













Cheers


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## LiftdT4R

For me 150 to 500 lumens with a good tint is the sweet spot! My 2 go to lights always wind up being a Malkoff 3D Mag and a bored Surefire 6P with an M61W. I really like the Mag because of the long long run time and the easy availability of D batteries when I'm at work. I love the tint on the M61W in my 6p though and the size is great. I wish Malkoff would do a warm tint drop in for the Mags.


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## bykfixer

Oh, there were probably plenty of police opting for the Centurion model. True warrior, former military folks who are in special ops divisions. Trouble is Ven is most of their work is done in secret so we'll never really know.

Lift'd I emailed Gene to see if there is enough demand to go the route of neutral or warm Mag drop ins. I'd buy at least a couple. I have a 3D Snap On red Brinkmann Legend just itching to be Malkoff'd, and I'd definitely put one in my 2D beater Mag.

Soon my E2D will have a 120 lumen Tana module to keep it looking stock without the potential "poof" that may occur at the worst possible moment. Right now it has an over driven Lumens Factory bulb. But being a module, placing a spare in the tailcap (like my 2D beater Mag has) is not an option. Otherwise I'd keep it incan. 

Now, a pair of 3 volt cells in a 2C Kel-Lite with a PR Mag xenon is like an E2 on steroids, yet not as pocket friendly. When I pull it out at work then tell my coworkers it's from the early 1970's they are always amazed.


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## LiftdT4R

Lol, I could just see their faces when they see a 1970 light that's brighter than their brand new one!

From what I've heard the p60 lamps last almost forever as long as you don't go beyond 2 CR123s. I'm about to put that to the test though. I'll be using your 6R at work for a while.

I did e-mail Gene and unfortunately he's too busy to do any custom orders. I read that he hasn't done a custom order in a few years now. I even offerred to buy 6 of them with a warm tint but no luck. :-(


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## bykfixer

I was asking Gene if there was enough demand for them to become part of his lineup. 

In the old days folks said P60's didn't last much longer than the 123's of the day. Yet there are still a ton of well used 6P's being sold with the Laser Products and SureFire module still working.
The one in the light I sent was accidently blown when I accidently sent electricity to it while see-ing if 4 batteries would fit in the body plus extension. It really bummed me out that I killed it in 0.05 seconds. But then I found a seller listing on eBay with 10 for $25 shipped from California. 
The working one I included was from Scout24. 

Not hard to impress a bunch of construction workers who use those $4- 3x AAA multi-LED numbers or celphones for a flashlight. When I tell them Maglite has some really bright lights for about $25 they say "yeah those $25 Maglites have always been expensive"


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## bykfixer

The evolution of the California Cop Light:





1960's to 1990's





Big lights in small packages 1990's forward.


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## LiftdT4R

What kind of ring is on the tail cap of that 2C Maglite on the left in that top pic? Looks like the Surefire lanyard rings almost.


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## bykfixer

It's a space filler with a lanyard slot. It adds a wee bit of length to the body to allow a pair of 18650 flat tops to fit. 
It's a modified 2C called Roar of the Pelican where it has upgraded parts inside to allow a bunch of DC current to the high output light bulb, thus putting out about a thousand lumens.


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## busseguy

Never mind.


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## bykfixer

That light you had shown previously... please put it back up. 
Yes it is a welcome addition to this thread. Clearly an LA Screw Code 4 look alike. It's always nice to see those. Imitation is flattery.


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## bykfixer

At the close of 2017, as the fabled Kel-Lite is about to turn 50 years old I thought a photo of then and now was in order. Kel-Lite began in 1968.

A bit of a salute to the original Lego the yesterday and today pic. 





The then and now cop lights:
- The then; A 3D Kel-Lite big head circa 1971/2 was quite the beast at the time. Large enough to put out a respectable beam and able to withstand the rigors of the beat cop.... small enough to be easily carried in a foot pursuit. Doubled as a self defense device. 
- The now; From the great state of Alley-bamee, the 1x AA Malkoff MDC body with a Valiant Concepts shrunken head, stainless steel bezel down Vital Gear clone clip and a Malkoff M31 warm LED drop in module is a bomb proof pocket carry patrolman favorite according to policeman EDC blogs. 
Gene Malkoff is a bit of a Don Keller for the new millenium.

Happy 50th Kel-Lite.


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## LiftdT4R

Very nice, can't believe they are that old. And, for as old as they are there are still plenty kicking. It reminded me of a similar pic I've been meaning to post for a while but instead of police issue here is 44 years of consumer grade models.

1974 Stud-Lite, 1984 Vari-Beam, and 2017 Lumintop Tool AA Blued Titanium






I haven't had any good acquisitions lately. I really missed out on a 7D Pro-Light and I'm still kicking myself for not bidding more. It's not for lack of trying though. I'm hoping someone will be doing some early spring cleaning soon and I'll have some nice new additions.


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## SmeepyBeeper

Here's my grandfather's duty light/baton, he was a police officer for ~10 years. It's a Gen I 1974 Kel-Lite C-PL-7. It still works although I no longer have a bulb for it .


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## bykfixer

Welcome to the site.

Thanks for adding the great light and a bit of its history.
Kel-Lite turns 50 years old this year.


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## LiftdT4R

Wow, very nice!!! Those 7Cs sure are a rare light too!!

If you're in need of a bulb both a 6 Cell (PR-18 or KPR-118) and a 7 Cell (PR-20 or KPR-120) will work. The 6 cell bulbs are somewhat easier to find although the 7 cells aren't tough to find either.


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## konifans

Use PR-20 bulb (8.63V) for the 7C / 7D!
CEC is still suppling the PR-20 at a good price, but that filament is too long so the spot is not tight. The best PR-20 is the Philips PR-20, which offers a tight spot, just like the stock bulb came from my Kel-Lite 7-cell light (Hollanda).


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## bykfixer

Kel -Lite: Founded in 1968





The original Lego.





Happy 50th Anniversary


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## bykfixer

Got word last night there is a pre-GT Price LA Screw Code 4 buy it now at eBay. 
Oh, forgot to mention; it's brand new, never used NIB. 





Shows the actual verbage of the listing for searching

Hopefully it'll land in someone's collection here.


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## LiftdT4R

Sold!!! That one didn't last long. A good price for a one of a kind light. Try finding a Maglite from that era NIB. I've only seen a handful. That LA Screw, has to be the only NIB one in existence.

Hopefully it went to a good home. I know it saved me $100 because I was about to pop on it. If anyone here scored it let's see those pics!!!!

For those interested in LA Screw Lights. Sgt 253 here hooked me up with an old LA Screw Distributor who sent me a ton of info, old advertisements, and some parts. I posted most of it on my blog at: http://otherflashlights.blogspot.com/2017/06/gt-price-and-la-screw-code-4-lights.html


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## LiftdT4R

I finally picked up a nice little LA Screw 2D. It seems like LA Screw made these lights from 1976 to 1985 when they were bought out by GT Price. The 1976 to 1979 ones were stamped Pats. Pend. on the tailcap like below. pretty neat lights!!


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## bykfixer

Good score.

It seems they made some "Executive" lights that were a Code 4 without the Lego aspect. IE, not a Code 4, nor stamped Code 4, but a black body number available in either 2D or 3D. 
Perhaps that one is one of those?


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## LiftdT4R

Hey, that's interesting! This light does not have the Code 4 stamping but it is stamped "Police Equipment For Police Use Only". I assumed that's because it's one of their early designs before the Code 4 branding came into use.






I think the executives were all polished aluminum. The grip could very well have been from one. It's probably lost to time. It doesn't appear to ever have been anodized. I wish I could figure out the numbering scheme on these switches too.


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## bykfixer

Is it a clicky?

It seems to me Ed Torr once said early Code 4's had "police use" instead of Code 4, which came later.

The early ones also had a very aggressive knurling. If you compare it to the Smoke Cutter the difference is very pronounced.


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## LiftdT4R

It is not a true clicky. It has the switch protruding out of both side of the barrel. It's almost like a slide switch that goes through the barrel. I thought all LA Screw lights were like this and the later GT Price's used a true clicky.

EDIT: Love the new PK quote too in ur sig!!!


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## bykfixer

Correct. The Smoke Cutter etc used the same switch. 
A novel approach to on and off prior to Tonys famous switch assembly. 

I did not know when the clicky version actually occured.


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## bykfixer

Recently acquired a 90's California Cop Light from a retired cop in Arizona. It was kinda-like SureFire's answer to an SL20 in a way.





The 6R
It was a near double length number (but not quite large enough for 4 cells) that utlized a proprietary battery that was 6 volts. 





Used an R60
Rated at 50 lumens the R60 provided a better run time between charges than a 65 lumen P60. 





Much smaller spot
The throw is virtually the same, yet it's a pencil beam light where the additional 15 lumens of a P60 place more spread causing a P60 equipped light to seem a lot brighter. 





Tex Shoemaker holster
Where Don Keller was teamed up with Bianchi holsters, Dr John Matthews teamed up with Shoemaker holsters. 

This particular light will be stored with other California Cop Lights of various brands instead being part of a SureFire display since it carries very much like those larger lights but has a girth like a golf club handle instead of a Lousville Slugger.






3 pencil beam'd classics
L to R: 
- A 1973-ish Kel-Lite CPL-2 with LifePo4 18500's and a Mag 4 cell bulb puts out about 100 throwey lumens
- A 1977-ish Bianchi B-Lite, runs on 2D cells and the Mag bulb, ultra clear glass with the B-Lite reflector put out about 45-50 throwey lumens.
- A 1999-ish SureFire R6 with stock setup puts out about 50 throwey lumens.


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## bykfixer

By the 1980's California Cop Light makers Maglite, and Streamlight were downsizing the flashlight to a keychain sized number. Everybody remembers the Solitaire. But even Streamlight forgot about their incan Keymate and 2xAAA Pocketmate. 
I did a thread about a Keymate vs Solitaire, but when the crowd kept groaning about how dim the Solitaire used to be I asked for it to be closed.
Point was about nostalgia, not how dim the 1xAAA light of the 1980's was.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...can-war-mag-solitaire-vs-streamlight-key-mate
Click on the icon to see the pix

I scored a nice blue Keymate recently. 




Here it is with some others of the era. 
A VareBeam, a Pocketmate, 2 Keymates and a minimag.
Note the triple A minimag is an LED type. My incans are all stashed away. 





Blue one next to a black one.





Another view





The blue one is clean, clean, clean

Now in those days the krypton bulb was putting out much brighter light with multi-cell numbers. With a single triple A, well you got the brightness of a fat birthday candle with a fat wick instead of the usual 2-6 lumens. And with Streamlight using a slightly larger head the beam was nicer than a Solitaire. 
These were probably great for a tooth hold while officer O'Reilly looked around for a dropped hand cuff key, or perhaps made his way to bed after pulling a double without waking Mrs O'Reilly.


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## bykfixer

Turning things a bit more modern, in the SureFire age, this post is about a pair of California companies who entered into the SureFire aimed market and did it with a bang heard all across the state. 
Pelican and Pentagon.





Shown is a variety from both.
I tossed in a couple of LED numbers to show how they had begun to enter the LED market at an early point.

I'll start with Pentagon. 
Based out of the San Fransico area they were making some pretty good stuff. Now like many before them, they were not above producing items that infringed on patented ideas without permission. At first they quietly went about out SureFiring SureFire in some ways. Durable coatings, super bright bulbs, and inovative approaches to the electric fire on a stick. They made lights based on the old SLR camera battery too. They built shock isolated bulb modules, placed thick o-rings at each end and glass lenses. They built weapon mounted lights too. 

The x1 was a light similar to the famous 3P was and was a big seller that had a decent output for a 1 cell flashlight. 

The x2 was a direct competitor to SureFire's 6P, and Streamlights Scorpion (that was also a 6P competitor). It featured a good output with twisty tailcap, that unfortuneatly used a patented lockout feature owned by SureFire. (Strike 1). 

The x3 shown was a 9P competitor that used a larger front end to cast light farther than the 9P. Both the x2 and x3 used an innovative clip that allowed bezel down carry on a belt, yet still allowed it to slide into a holster. 

The K2, which featured a bezel that could be rotated to expose a near knife sharp ring of crenalations. It was slimmer, lighter and featured a near silent clicky.

All were natural hard anodized to a dull finish similar to olive drab. The Pentagon Light company went after some military contracts SureFire had spent years (and millions of dollars for R&D) trying to obtain. (Strike 2.) 

The ex2 was a cop light. Plain and simple. Now unlike the 6P, it was smooth-ish round body. Some knurls but the chosen coating was like teflon. Ease of holster deploy. It featured a twisty activator and had a pretty good beam. Not as broad as the 6P, but was more of a thrower. In side by side the 6P was much nicer, but the ex2 was cheaper. So for an officer on a budget that was a boon. 

Pentagon made good holsters too. They featured a plastic cap that was glued over snap parts inside the holster that prevented the light body from being scratched. Now the button required a firm tug to open the top and a firm push to close it. And Pentagon tailcaps were stiffer to activated. But their lights were cheaper than SureFire (and Streamlights). Cheap is good, right? Well not always, yet to folks making peanuts for wages it was a definite selling advantage. 

At some point Pentagon entered the LED arena and did some pretty good stuff there. Using the same sized heads as incans they did some stuff that was to this day hard to beat in terms of beam tint and color rendition. Smooth, ring free output that appear brighter than the numbers suggest. The Lx2 for example at 65 lumens has a modern looking tint and the later 90 lumen version is one of my favorite LED cop lights. Batteries go in upside down from the norm in these. Now Pentagon claimed they were 100% US made items. (Strike 3.) It turns out that their LED's were not US made, but were apparently coming from Korea. 

The little Molle light shown was apparently made of Korean parts and pieces too. Nice little right angle 1x AA light that was a portable number aimed at special ops folks. Available in tan or black and featured colored filters that mounted onto the bottom of the light when not in use and a cheesy little compass that on paper was a good idea. Yet it sucked at accuracy. Plus, unlike Eveready who placed a compass across the bulb to see at night the Pentagon compass was buried in the bottom so the only time one could see it was in daylight (or lit by another flashlight). 

Folks at SureFire had been steaming mad about Pentagons approach for a few years. Now lawyers being lawyers, they said "wait until they get big and you'll win lots of money". So when Pentagon went after a big contract in Texas the SureFire lawyers hit them with a lawsuit claiming the company was falsely claiming US made lights to win a contract that required lights to be 100% US made. For good measure they added the patent infringement(s) showing where the ideas belonging to SureFire had been duplicated by Pentagon without prior permission. A judge agreed that Pentagon was taking shortcuts that violated certain verbage requirements in the contract and sided with SureFire's lawyers. They were awarded a big dollar amount but SureFire management agreed that if Pentagon would cease operations that would be enough. Pentagon agreed and quietly ceased operations for producing more lights but stayed in business a bit longer to honor warranties. It is rumored that they continued producing parts briefly so that warranties could be honored. 

Like SureFire, Streamlight, Maglite and others, the lights were serialized. But early on they placed them on heads instead of the battery holding body. Also like SureFire and Streamlight, they produced their own brand of batteries for the 123 sized lights and included them with the lights. Unlike SureFire and Streamlight, Pentagons came with a glow in the dark sticker and used a clam shell package that allowed the light to be stored in original packaging when not in use. 

They nearly pulled off a coup in the world of California Cop Lights. Some of their lights are still available NIP and another outfit in Australlia opened under the name producing direct G2 rip offs. To me that is a shame because Pentagon did some really good products for a market that could not afford SureFire lights. It's too bad they used some false claims in the process. 

Next post I'll talk about a company that is still quietly going about producing some pretty good flashlights and remains viable in a crowded market loaded with gimmickery.


----------



## bykfixer

Pelican:
Now this little family owned enterprise began selling dive lights. Plastic lights that floated when empty. The "Pelican Float" it was called. They developed the plastic Sabre Light and water proof cases soon after. They began in a garage in 1976 and in 2004 were bought out by a big capital firm and run by a former Microsoft executive. 

The Pelican company now has facilities across the planet, but they began near Los Angeles California. They now make all kinds of cases, back packs, thermal control units (we call coolers), luggage, cups and flashlights. 

Now I did a bunch of research for Pentagon and had the pleasure of comunicating with some of the players who participated in the industry during the Pentagon era. But with Pelican my info at this point is pretty limited. I plan to change that in time, but for this post I'll share what I know so far.

Pelican shared some parts and pieces from Pentagon. Based on attempts at lego I wonder if they ended up owning some of Pentagons machinery. But that is conjecture at this point. What I do know is that some currently available Pelican parts directly fit Pentagons and vice versa. Did they enter the P60 arena to compete with SureFire? I do not know, but do know a P60 puts out a mighty fine beam in a Pelican 2320 (M6). 

The Pelican M6; a light that was a competitor of the 6P using Pelican shaping from the early days. They made other lights as well, but the one that was popular with police was the 2x123 2320. The early 2320's had trouble prone clicky's. It rendered the light as a momentary only number as the fragile switch would refuse to stay engaged. And a twisty was only made briefly (I'm told). Back then a solution was made by Kroll. Good luck finding Kroll parts though. 

The M6 was available in a matte black or matte silver and came with a nice holster that had a pouch for spare batteries. They did not make their own batteries nor did the light include them. Pelican opted for a type 2 coating where it was more like a painted finish than a hard baked on. So the durability of the finish was not stellar. At some point Pelican improved the clicky so failure rate was greatly reduced. Their warranty was great but tell that to a fellow who needs the light to work NOW. 

The LED market was becoming the norm and Pelican continued the 2320 until 2014. But they began a 2340 that was an LED upgrade to the 2320. It touted better runtime with the LED lifespan. Again a type 2 coating was chosen. It also came with the now famous Pelican holster. But price was prohibitive versus the Streamlight products of the day. And being early LED, the beam was less than critically aclaimed. It was a good alternative to the light bulb version, yet the bulb'd version still sold better. 

Later the 2390 arrived. It was a type 3 hard coated number with a threshold crossing 100+ lumen output. Some say it was about 90 though. By then the clicky issue had been solved as well. But what I like is that the LED module can directly swap out with a 2320 module. And for tailstand fans, a Malkoff tailcap fits. For lego fans, SportTac modules, Malkoff modules and P60's work as well. 

In a day of non serviceable lighting tools the 2320, 2340 and 2390 are fixable. The plastic lens can be replaced, easily. The switch can be serviced if need be and popular lanyard rings n clips fit them. 

I also showed some other 2300 series in the post above. I show them as a part of the evolution of the popular M6 that opts for more econimical fuel choices. The double A platform was where Pelican began and their 2350 n 2360 still use them as a fuel source. The 2350 began as a pencil beam number where it's little 100+ lumens throw like a brighter light. The next version carries the same name and look, but is user programable using a series of half presses to go from factory hi/strobe/lo to high only or lo/hi. Both have a beam tetering on the edge of neutral, but the 2nd gen touts nearly double the output while opting for a general use beam with much wider spread. 

The 2360 is up to its 5th generation and touts over 300 lumens in a programmable light that has a battery meter. Both sizes feature a very secure, removable clip and a knurled body. They are pretty stout for a double A light that allows a positive grip similar to the 1" bodied 123 lights, yet are more pocket friendly for EDC purposes. 
Pelican opted for battery saving low outputs that are around 40% of the high. This allows the light to be used in a general purpose manner with a high beam available if need be. Both feature the type 2 coatings and are made overseas. 

Pelican also makes 6000 and 7000 series lights based on policeman type uses, but I do not own those at this point. Perhaps others will chime in regarding those. 

What began as a fellow in his garage, producing a water proof flashlight has developed into a huge company and this thread would be amiss if the history of Pelican is not a feature. And like Maglite, the company in many ways has stayed true to its roots by producing old school looking flashlights for a modern world.

Lets see your Pelicans....


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## LiftdT4R

This may not be a vintage light but I sure do think it's a homage to one. I call it the 2 Cell Mag-Kel. I recently got this as part of a lot from Lightknot and it's a 2C Mag-Lite with the head turned down, the serial and stampings turned down, and hard anodized black. It resembles an early Kel-Lite but with all the functionality and adjustable focus of a new production Mag-Lite. We recently had a Noreaster here in NJ and lost power for a day and a half so this was my go-to light. I'm just running a Xenon bulb and alkalines for now but I'll likely throw in 2 18500s and a 5 cell bulb soon.


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## bykfixer

Very good score!!

Fits the spirit of the California Cop Light thread like a glove.

The tailcap resembles a gen 2 bulb holding Kel-Lite with an added knurling.


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## LiftdT4R

Thanks, it's a neat little project someone must have put some good machining time into. I figured I'd post it since there hasn't been a lot of action in this thread lately. 

I picked up a major score last night. I'm still researching it out a little but figured I would post a teaser pic. Hint: It's not attached to a Nightstalker or Tac-Lite (Triad). I'd be amazed if anyone could guess!


----------



## LiftdT4R

Here's a light I showed some pictures of late last week. Well, I was finally able to research it out and I think I have most of the background.











So what is it? Well, at first glance it's a 6C Maglite which is rare enough considering they were discontinued in 2003 after only 400,000 or so made. This model happens to be a 1990 or 1991 due to the laser etched bezel and a lack of the Panther logo. But, taking up 3 cells worth of space in the light is an ASP baton.






These batons were designed to replace the end cap and use the stock tail spring. They worked on 5, 6, or 7 C cell lights. The bulb also needed to be changed to he correct voltage rating after subtracting 3 cells. In this case the light uses a 3 cell Maglite Krypton bulb. A 5 cell light would be reduced to a 2 cell and a 7 cell reduced to a 4 cell.

These batons are very rare now mainly because they were produced in very limited numbers around 1991. The reason for this is that the already long lights became even more unwieldy when coupled with a 21" baton. Shown below is a pic next to a 7D.






The lights were very difficult to swing and were more menacing looking than anything else. It's no surprise ASP went on to work with Kevin Truax to develop the Nightstalker which added a compact CR 123 light to the end of their baton and then later Don Keller to develop the Tac-Lite (Triad) as a baton attachement. Both of these lights offered their compactness as an incredible advantage to make the baton more manageable and easy to control.

I'm surprised these attachments were produced considering a large C or D cell Maglite is a really a baton itself and doesn't need an additional baton. The baton, like most ASPs, is very difficult to close and requires that the end be pounded against a solid surface like pavement or concrete. I managed to break the filament on a bulb closing this one so after repeated use in the field it's easy to see how it might not work so well. Even when coupled with a 7C the light output of the reduced voltage, 4C, bulb is still unimpressive when compared to a Streamlight or Mag Charger.

As unpractical and unpopular as these may be they are still a very interesting light that is a natural evolution from the super long Kel-Lite Baton Lights. As far as I know these were put out in very limited numbers for D cell Maglites, C cell Maglites, and some Streamlights. I believe ABTOMAT has an example of the Streamlight (3rd Gen Kel-Lite) version but the link is now broken.

This one came from a survival instructor in North Carolina who bought it directly from an ASP sales rep in 1991 for self defense. Unfortunately the 6C he had it on had a battery leak and the light was lost. Luckily he saved the ASP attachment and I was able to buy it. I installed it on one of the 6Cs I own which is from around the time the baton was produced. This is one of my new favorite lights in my collection.

I should have some more, interesting old school Cop lights coming soon too.


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## bykfixer

Very cool!!

And on the opposite extreme...




For folks who said "screw the big lights... we have tazers now". lol. 
That was around the time OJ tv was sweeping the nation. "If it don't fit, you must aquit" and all that...

Each one currently puts out between 60 and 120 lumens with modern Lumens Factory replacement bulbs. Stock were like 25 and 60 though. Still not bad for a pocket friendly flashlight vs D sized lights of those days. 
(Note the small black one is modern, but it's a lego to mimic the older ones)


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## LiftdT4R

It's interesting to see how the thinking really diverged in the 1990s. Up until then the mantra was basically "bigger is better". 3Ds or larger were the norm. It seems like with the advent of the collapsible baton there really wasn't much of a need to carry such a large light anymore. Out of all the officers I work with I almost never see a D or C cell light anymore unless it's in their cruiser as a backup. Streamlight Stingers and Surefires are by far the most popular lights I see. I've talked to a couple getting back into Maglite with the Mag Tacs though.


----------



## bykfixer

A new breed of California Cop Light...




Brighter than a smart phone...





LED, made in China and all that.
Yet with todays world a hands free clip on is real handy. 





Amazing how far the cop light has come.
Save the 5D for blinding dope smoking hippies and busting out the headlight of a perp trying to mow you down.


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## LiftdT4R

bykfixer said:


> A new breed of California Cop Light...
> Save the 5D for blinding dope smoking hippies and busting out the headlight of a perp trying to mow you down.



I think I'm gonna have to update my sig!

I always wondered why the police became the gold standard when marketing flash lights. There are many professions that use their lights more. I always thought it was because police were the most visible though. I know a few officers that don't even carry or do carry but never use their lights.


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## bykfixer

I work with local yocals and statees in work zones at night nearly every summer. When tasked with sitting in work zones they get premium pay, so more times than not ones with seniority get the lions share. Many remember the good ole days when SL20's were king. The ones old enough to remember Kel -Lites are typically in positions of authority and largely perform management duties. We only see them on occasion or if something went wrong and there's no time to discuss flashlights. 

The days of carrying a belt holster'd flashlight are generally over. At least in terms of the Stinger or larger. I can't remember the last time I saw an officer do the ole "arm pit" hold thanks to smaller lights. 

Typically they write the ticket inside the patrol car and hand the citation to the driver on a clipboard lit by a small light. Often they approach the vehicle they pulled over with larger lights. I suppose for the same psycological reasons from long ago. Flashlight in one hand, other hand ready to grab a self protection device if need be. Side buttons still reign supreme. 

I am surprised how many use small junk. Those are mainly local ones in places where residents can leave home without locking their doors. So they've never really needed sturdy flashlights when pulling over some councilman's teenager for having a tail light out. 

To see cops carrying big ole incan lights anymore you have to watch old Clint Eastwood movies. lol. Yet every so often I see a young officer carrying a 6P, or an incan Stinger. 

Way, way back when Conrad Hubert was trying to expand sales of Ever Ready (still 2 words) flashlights, he gave them to local police departments. Soon after, police in New York and other large cities began carrying flashlights supplied by the department. By WW1 he convinced the military to use them. Many times police were outfitted with military versions of flashlights. Yet until Don Keller did what he did, things had not progessed much since the 1920's. Durability and brightness in a package much smaller than the typical 6+ cell light were a boon for police. No more lights so big a shoulder strap was used for carrying a small baseball bat sized light with a 5" glass lens. And instead of springs being meant for thermal expansion due to the heat, he figured out shock isolation using existing parts and pieces. 

Even though a 6D flashlight is considered ginormous these days, there was a time when those were considered small compared to their predescesors by Bright Star, Dog Supply House etc. 

100 year evolution of the cop light from about 1915. 




Baby C at the right put out about 2 lumens. The tiny clip on at the left puts out 20. In between are lights used by police and pilots during war time. 





Changes from before Don Keller and during his heyday. 
Take note how much smaller a 5D was compared to the copper clad 6+1 light.


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## LiftdT4R

Verry cool picture! I think it's also interesting how we're pretty much back at the same size lights as the turn of the century. It seems like they were small, got very large, and then started to decrease in size again. I'm guessing batteries were very expensive when the lights first came out. So much so that folks couldn't afford to operate a large light.


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## bykfixer

Very expensive. A 2D for example was a buck 99. A car was $300. Batteries were a half dollar or higher. Runtime was minutes. Shelf life was days. Only the bulb lasted. The body would hold up if battery corrosion didn't do it in. Copper conductor parts tarnished badly though. 

That was up until Charles Burgess developed a battery that could store for weeks to a month or two in about 1917. He also built very sturdy lights. The 20's saw improvements slowly but surely. Being "the roaring 20's" nickel plated brass lights were very popular. Cop lights were still black. But instead of vulcanite rubber they were black coated brass. 

During the 30's the depression caused fierce competition for a tiny market. 1/3 of the country was out of work and there were no government issued stipends yet. Another 1/3 were barely employed so things like food and clothes took precedence. Many companies like Burgess resorted to giving away cheap tubes with a light bulb with the purchase of a couple of batteries. Numerous flashlight companies folded or merged. Winchester for example merged with Olin and Bond. Finding an Olin or Bond made in the 40's was a rare thing as they mostly had multiple names on them. 

By the 1940's things had gotten pretty good (comparitively speaking). Plastics were also getting pretty good. Just right did an alluminum body AA aviator light covered with a plastic coating. It used a flip switch that covered or uncovered the bulb with red film. 

By the 50's the war was over and everybody had a job that wanted one. Flashlight sales were like everything else then... booming. "The machine era" saw lots and lots of "style" built in as companies vied for business. 

By this point it was not unusual for companies to copy other companies ideas. Heck that began when one caveman copied another caveman's idea for a spear. But in flashlight life many times a lawsuit resulted in the loser building X number of lights for the winner for daring such a thing. 

Things stayed largely the same until the late 1960's. Lights for a buck 99 were everywhere. Rayovac and Eveready (one word in the US since 1920 something, still 2 in England)... they were king. They made pretty good lights too. But so did Fulton, Bright Star, Burgess and others who competed for police contracts. Plastics were pretty normal and high end models carried names like Sportsman, Lazer Light or Captain. 

When a sheriffs deputy (named Don Keller) was trying out sprinkler pipe in California, Streamlight built a light for NASA to use in space mission practice to mimic the sun somewhere in NJ. John Matthews was inventing a laser sight for gun use out west and not far away Tony Maglica was crafting shell casings. PK was in elementary school somewhere in St Louis. Not long after that lights dedicated for police use were exploding on America like an atomic bomb. Finally a flashlight was available that would still work after driving a loose nail back down. And no more 'whack a palm' was required to get 100% output every time you activated the on switch. 

It seems we are stuck with "tacticool" until somebody invents a flashlight cooler than a California Cop Light.


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## ven

Very cool pics/lights, great info, love your posts. Those clip on lights look very handy(lack of), thinking of the advantages ,over say a head lamp.


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## bykfixer

I was telling my wife last night about California style and how it has influenced American culture for a long time. On the east coast for example, flashlights began in New York. But once that invention had found its way to the San Fransisco world trade fair things began to change. Not at first because everything was coming from Michigan to Manhatten. Meanwhile most of California was still largely untamed back then. By world war 1 things began to take a turn towards what we saw from the 1950's (with mag wheels and chrome valve covers on our cars) to fashion and music. Blame it on the military perhaps. 
See, as soldiers were stationed out west they would eventually return with notions they'd seen while in the diverse cultured free thinking, great weather influenced state where the eastern influence was largely ignored. Folks from New England showed up there in suits or slacks with leather soled dress shoes. They returned in tshirts, shorts and sneakers.... Converse had begun in Massechussetts in 1908 making 'non skids' rubber sole shoes. But in the 1920's basketball star ChuckTaylor who played for 'the Converse All Stars' held clinics in high school where he also sold the "non skids" that became known later as Chuck Taylors. They were basketball shoes to atheletes across America. But in California they were "comfortable" shoes soon to be called sneakers.... see the point? 
California was a destination during the second world war for lots of what some would call refugees. It was also a huge depot for raw materials. In 1941 for example LA had 1.3 million people. That had doubled by 1945. Along with that the influence across the country was being influenced by all kinds of Made in California ideas. The industrial machine had officially arrived out west. Flashlights were still largely produced in middle America or back east. 

Where industry and population goes, crime aint far behind. An unfortunate reality, a reality none-the-less. Back east the stuffed shirt culture was slowly being influenced by California thinking in designs, art, construction and thinking. In the 1950's California was slowly being changed from an American Cold War industrial thinking machine to "the birth of cool" where folks like Miles Davis were arriving on the scene. European influence was taking shape as well. Meanwhile all things Hollywood had also influenced the American culture. Free thinking youngsters had begun to grasp the California culture and "the Beatnick" generation was happening. Groovey music, relaxed positions on life and smoking grass were gaining in popularity out there while the rest of America remained largely traditional in its values. The majority of California remained traditional as well outside of some population centers like LA and San Fransico. A few military brats had discovered big wave surfing in Hawaii. 

Police back east and in middle America were faced with drunk drivers, domestic disputes, burglaries and other typical issues. Criminals were doing what criminals did back then. Yet the basic structure of society was largely respectful of laws. Leave it to Beaver and Ozzie & Harriet type thinking. Out west police were seeing a change in attitudes. Police using flashlights was becoming normal. The designs of the time were getting more reliable thanks to military influenced production of more durable ideas. 

The post war anti-cold war movement along with a growing illegal drug trade was blossoming. Crime was taking on a new face there. I won't go into race relations except to say that in California a diverse culture didn't see skin tone as an issue for the most part. The rest of America.... well I'll leave it there for later. Washington DC was also very diverse in culture but the typical thinking was not.
NASA had begun to use flashlights in general but they were an unlimited budget process thinking of ways to mimic sunlight... and sunlight brightness along with that. 

The 1960's saw a change in that Beatnicks had offspring, surfing was huge (thanks to Hollywoods Gidget movie) and protesting was catching on. America had dealt with the Korean conflict largely unchanged. But by late in that deal cold war thinking governments had sent "advisors" to a jungle called Vitenam. The big opponent to capitalism had begun to place their influence in territories with strategic thinking. America and its allies had licked fascist dictators in the 1940's and were not about to allow tiny countries to become run by communism. Agree or disagree with that philosophy today, that was the mindset back then. Across America tensions among its population were rising for several reasons. And the youth played a large role. Counter-culture was becoming the norm in many places, yet the vast majority had no idea of that. The police did though. They were on the front lines of it all. Trying to keep demonstrations orderly, disrupt the drug trade, and continue to fight "normal" crime caused them to take new steps in law enforcement. 

By this point factories across America were going 24/7 and all night stores were not unusual. An interstate roadway system was well under way, again thanks to military thinking whereby "if those dastardly commies invade we can get our tanks coast to coast in a few days". The "U-Tote-Em" stores that began in Texas as a basic staples idea with an Alaskan native theme had become a 7-11 store known for being open from 7 am to 11 pm 7 days a week. In 1963 they went to 24 hours and expanded across the country. Americans no longer slept after 9pm thanks to round the clock sunshine and round the clock employment. And with that American police were all becoming equipped with flashlights. Police departments no longer doled out one here and there in large populated areas. Places like Shreevport Alabama were now becoming modernized. Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles... they had been that way for a while. But even the proverbial one horse town's police were being issued flashlights. 

The need for a tactical approach was also becoming normal due to unrest, drugs and counter-culture. By the late 1960's about 1/2 of Americans owned a pair of Chuck Taylors and wore casual attire outside of work or school where dress codes were still in place. Police were facing lawsuits for over zealous behaviors and the divorce rate was escelating dramatically. Riots were breaking out too. 

The phrase "dope smoking hippies" was being used at dinner tables by factory worker dads warning their children of the perils of drug abuse while watching the Vietnam war on the 6:30 newscast. I knew what marijuana was by the age of 7. I lived during the Vietnam on tv period and saw a typical fridge mounted Rayovac become replaced by a Taiwann made Kel-Lite knockoff by Radio Shack. Tactical lights had found their way to our little one horse town that by then had three 7-11 stores and a 24 hour sunshine. Not everyone had one up to then. But if you knew a cop you knew where to buy one if you had the loot to spend on such a thing. By the time Maglite burst on the scene, the idea of a tactical flashlight was pretty standard. 

Between the threat of commies, crazed dope smoking hippies, the wacko/weirdo biker dude down the street and potential riots breaking out... oh and thunderstorms taking out the all night generator, we had come to count on a durable metal fire on a stick. By the 1980's as I said before, America was in a good mood for the first time in a while. The 60's were done. By then it was well known that the Hells Angels weren't going to abduct your little sister. Wages were on the increase and the minimag was available soon after. That little light may be the one that really changed things. 2D bright, tooth hold able, and worked everytime. Yeah buddy!! Police could now leave their SL20 in the patrol car and grab the minimag from their belt in a foot pursuit. 

Not known to most back then but a tiny company called Laser Products had set about changing the brightness available from a "tiny" platform. 5D bright and not much bigger than a minimag. Companies like Bright Star, LA Screw, and Maglite who supplied many police lights had no idea what was about to take place. Cocaine and its huge revenues caused police to change tactics again. Instead of a foot chase to catch a flip-flop wearing hippie carrying a napsack of grass, the drug folks had gone back to prohibition era tactics where automatic weapons were not unusual. Police needed more distance from their lighting tools as well. Coupled with law suits galore they were faced with the need for 'kinder-gentler' lighting tools while having the need for much larger sized lighting output. Those SLR camera battery fed lights were manna from heaven back then. American culture still prefered inexpensive flashlights. $80 for a flashlight was out of the question for all but a few. Yet by then Maglite copies were everywhere. Americans began to expect tactical durability at Rayovac prices and overseas factories were happy to oblige. Japanese and other Asian factories were good at making American style products. Again blame the military. America had played a hand in rebuilding the Japan they had destroyed in world war 2. Their culture combined with American know how had them able to compete with the rest of the planets industrial output, but for a lot less cost for a variety of reasons.

Oh and one more point. In the first world war era the western culture had decided to modernize a very poor, but resource rich, old world country called China. Along the way the Chinese government had become influenced by communist thinking leaders. Eventually it became a communist country. Now they had sided with the Russians and being a population in the billion range were a pretty scary group to have against the west. They had a potential gun toting soldier for every man, woman and child across the west. Uh oh!!
In the early 1970's an American President reached out to Chinas leaders and began easing tensions by promising to lend a hand in modernizing the culture through technology and food products. In time those leaders saw the advantage of a well fed factory worker. 

Stemming back to the 1920's some companies were taking advantage of this new resource of cheap labor. The military for example had local people doing the cleaning, cooking and maintenance tasks in exchange for the militaries ample available supply of food and drink. By the 1980's that had blossomed into a fabric of Chinese society used to better. Not better like Chuck Taylor wearing surfer dudes in America, but better as in not hungry and thirsty all the time. Also used to being housed in the dry during the rain season. America (and the west) had gotten used to having more disposable income and with the import of Asian goods at cheap prices they clamored for more. By the 1990's Asian made products were replacing American made products. Even police and military uniforms were being made outside the US. The American government began to require US made items like uniforms, weapons and flashlights. Bright Star Maglite, Streamlight and SureFire benefitted greatly by that. And another potential great called Pentagon paid a heavy price for skirting that rule. 

By then the large flashlight was being replaced by smaller ones. There was still a mindset that bigger was better. Afterall 6D batteries could fire a light bulb way better than 2 double A's. The SLR camera battery was still largely unavailable to the masses and expensive when found. Runtimes of those small lights was about an hour and bulbs were notoriously expensive as well. The big light remained supreme. Asian made durability was also becoming standard. 

Krypton bulbs were better than their predescessors by far. Brighter and more durable. The golden glow from a 3D flashlight was at a place never known before. A 3C powered light was a hit with decent runtimes, able to withstand abuse and worked everytime you pushed the button. Life was good for the flashlight carrying police officer. Rechargeable lighting was also readily available. Officers could have a fully charged 3C sized light at the start of their shift and could top it off from the patrol car. Unknown to most at the time were those novelty ideas called LED's. 

Like the original flashlight began around 1900 as a tiny novelty flashing light pinned to a necktie, the LED began in a very similar way. 

I'll leave off their....


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## bykfixer

Later this day I was confronted by the drastic changes little kids are faced with as 3 young boys (about 8-10 years old) were walking up my street talking to each other using language that would make Snoop Dawg blush. One boy bragging how next time he beats up another kid he's going to have it recorded on his celphone so he can show those other (insert bad word here) how tough he is.... 

As they passed by I asked if they thought speaking that way makes then cool. I heard a trio of "no sir" lol. 
It just re-inforced in my mind why police have to use smarter tactics these days and how it may have begun in some jazz club in California in the 1950's.


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## LiftdT4R

Awesome read, thanks for the history lesson!! Very interesting! 

I picked up what I think is going to be another challenging restoration but should be fun.






It's serial #573, a very very early Covina made Kel-Lite that was produced for the Missouri State Highway Patrol. It's also done in silver which is very rare on Kel-Lites. Most of the parts are here and it has a reflector which is great but it's corroded which is bad because replacements are either very expensive or non-existent. I plan to try something new and restore this reflector because I have several other Kel-Lites that have blurry reflectors too. I'm thinking I will either strip it and polish it followed by a clear coat if it cleans up nice or strip it, prime it, and hit it with a chrome spray. I need to purchase a switch cover too but I have a nice hook up for them. I'll post some pictures as it goes and if anyone has any tips for the reflector restoration please let me know.


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## bykfixer

Cool!! 
I'll do some side by sides with vintage lights from the 50's and 60's I have and see what would work reflector-wise. That reflector and bulb setup look very familiar.

My guess is they sourced parts from a current manufacturer in the early-est days. Rayovac, GT Price or Fulton suppliers perhaps. Folks who had made lights for the US during Korea and Vietnam days.


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## LiftdT4R

Man I wish I knew more about GT Price. I know they wound up buying LA Screw's design and made some right angle lights for the military and scouts but other than that I don't know too much.


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## bykfixer

I'm 99.99% certain a Fulton or GT Price MX-991 reflector would swap out in your small head Kel-Lite. 

Shown is the Fulton version.


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## LiftdT4R

Interesting, that would certainly be easier than refinishing. Does anyone make replacement parts for those Fultons or do you just have to buy a whole donor light?


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## bykfixer

Pm'd ya an email address where perhaps Fulton can answer your question about new reflectors. 

I was hoping a Code 4 would work as we have the LA Screw salesmans info. It was too big though.

First info I can find for GT Price is brief mentions here and there on military sites going back to about 1943. I think I remember reading something somewhere about their origins but cannot remember where. They were an early California based flashlight maker though iirc. Long before Don and the rest did their thing.


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## LiftdT4R

Cool, thanks!! I'm honestly thinking these can't be too bad to either mirror polish and clear coat or to hit them with a chrome finish from my air brush. I want to mess around too because that's one of the hardest parts to find on these old lights are the reflectors. If I could find a way I'd be able to save quite a few more lights that I currently either don't buy or turn away when I get inquiries on them.

BTW I think I may have some very cool vintage Cop lights coming soon. I won't spoil the surprise!


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## LiftdT4R

Well I didn't have too much luck yet trying to restore this Kel-Lite reflector. I stripped off all of the old plating using Aircraft Stripper. I then tried polishing the bare metal as best I could and while I was able to get an ok shine it doesn't look anything like a stock one. Surprisingly it throws only slightly less light than stock but I just don't like the way it looks. I think I'm going to hit it with a primer and a coat of chrome with my airbrush. Does anyone have any good recommendations on chrome paint to use with an airbrush?


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## bykfixer

Old schoolers here used to swear by a really thin foil called 'silver leaf' from craft stores.
One post by Abtomat mentioned a Fulton reflector will fit.




Agreed

There is no "spray" on solution minus stuff from places like Eastwood for "chrom-ing" parts, but that is a tedious, multi application process that ends up looking shiney, but not reflective like nickel plating does. Cars use chromium for durability but stuff like that $2 corkscrew wine bottle opener is a really, really, really, really thin coat of nickel polished to a high gloss.


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## LiftdT4R

Thanks, I'll look into that silver leaf. I could probably replace the reflector but I do get some requests to restore lights that I turn down because they have a reflector that the finish has gone bad on and I can;t source a replacement so I'm kind of using this as an exercise in reflector restoration. I'd like to see how it comes out so I can either chase some rare lights that otherwise I might pass on or help someone out in a restoration.

This airbrush paint seems to have great success when done over a glass black: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015H4G2U/?tag=cpf0b6-20

When I get some time away from work I think I'm going to fir up the old airbrush and give her a shot.

BTW, we were paving at night the other night and I was thinking about what light Mr. Fixer would carry? Lol, I wound up with a Malkoff MD2 with an M61W and a high low ring. We have such a mess! The road we're working on must have been overlaid 3 times over a concrete base. All the valve boxes and manholes have 3 extensions one on top of the other.


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## bykfixer

I would likely be using an LED based lighting tool due to all kinds of artificial lighting causing all kinds of weird shadows. As an inspector I carry a clipboard, temperature gun, tape measure and celphone so hands and pockets are spoken for. If my role is walking all night a 2cell light is ok. But if the role also involves laptop (and sitting) work I opt for smaller. 

Now I have a hard hat dedicated to night work, so it has a headlamp by Streamlight I like. The double clutch has a high/low interface with a lens option that provides a spot or a honeycomb for pure flood, which is great for lighting up the laptop keyboard. 
For urban settings with things like manholes, valve boxes or overhead trees I have an assortment of pencil beam lights that get picked based on the tint of artificial lighting. Example would be the blue-ish tint of a Coast HP7 zoomed to spot provides an easy to see beam for identifying overhead items so operators and drivers can get a fix on their location. If I'm peering into a manhole one with a wrist lanyard gets picked. No "droppsees" there. 
For highway use a throwey light is picked. When working on high speed roadways distant likighting is often needed. I started using an ML50 last summer and found it works great while easily fitting in my back pocket. I don't do holsters. 

Nearly everywhere I go a PK PR-1 is in my pocket. So tiny, yet so grippy and bright. Great lighting tool in a general sense, but if I need to see down into a valve box a pencil beam like a Mag XL50 is better for that. My truck is usually no more than 50-100 yards away, so if the light(s) I have on my person don't do the trick there are others more suited not very far away. The workers often ask "just how many flashlights do you have?" lol. I respond "why do you have so many wrenches in your tool box?"

I found Malkoff lights are more slippery than I prefer. Especially with gloves on in cool/cold weather. Same with many of my lighting tools. So at those times either large girth Maglites or PK's max grippy numbers get picked. The FL2 is about the size of a 6P yet when runtime is the issue its low setting gets it done. Last summer I carried a 6 volt modified Kel-Lite 2C a few times for nostaglia purposes. 

It looks like this year I'll be the ersosion control inspector on a big @$$ bridge project so sunscreen will probably be used more than flashlights. But at some point I'll check inside a pipe for build up or something so perhaps a pencil beam will be handy at times.

In the meantime....


























State of the California Cop Light collection lately.


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## bykfixer

Lift'd, you commented once on the interest in the history of GT Price. I've looked around and so far not much to add. But according to lights submitted to the flashlight museum they have been around at least since 1945 and specialized in plastic lights.

I found an interesting Bell Systems 2D light at eBay from the 1950's. 




They called it a "pyramid switch" light





First GT Price I've seen with the city and state listed.


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## LiftdT4R

Very nice! I'd love to know more about them but collectors seem few and far between. Phew! Another California light. I found an interesting graphic recently that maybe explains part of the story about why so many lights come from California, namely Los Angeles County.

Each of the states in blue have a smaller population than Los Angeles County.






I have some recently acquired California Cop lights that I've never seen before and I'm hoping to getting around to posting them soon but we've been swamped at work. I'm sure you guys are the same. More and more road work coming in every day. Seems like they're working on almost every road here in NJ. Been getting plenty o use out of my lights though. Went through 6 D batteries in my 3D Mag already this year.


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## bykfixer

California was once a destination to behold when folks back east set out to see the mighty pacific ocean. Until the railroad was built and folks could celebrate Christmas in New York, the New Years in San Fransico.... the folks who actually made it to the pacific ocean had long since forgotten the conventional wisdoms of things back east. 

It was a clean slate for new ideas. The mindset was anything but conventional for many. By the end of the 2nd world war that _style_ still prevailed, yet California was becoming a destination point for people all over the planet looking for a chance to live the American dream. Tony Maglica was reportedly one of those people. He crafted things for the military machine in the Cold War era. 

I found a post by George T Price III was making MX991 flashlights for the military in 1963. It seems the company made 1D "beacon" lights as early as 1945 for the military. Back then 'bakelite' plastic was used for many flashlight models by a few companies like Bright Star, Price, Fulton etc. 

The bakelite body and plastic lenses were reportedly introduced by Stewart R Brown of New York as early as the late 1920's. They made flashlights for volatile places like coal mines with a ground wire strapped across the bulb. Later bakelite and other intrinsically safe ideas were incorporated by numerous companies including GT Price who had contracts with large companies like Bell and various railroad companies. 

Now who was George T Price III? I'm still striking out in that regard.


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## snakebite

i just picked up a streamlight 5c.
missing the button cover and has wear/dings but overall ok.
however i am finding nothing on its bulb.
its a nova 5.
looks like a halogen.
any replacement button covers to be had?
btw now i see where the oracle a friend has got its dna.
it looks like a copy of this light.


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## LiftdT4R

Do ya have a pic? Is it a PR base bulb or is the whole reflector assembly attached to a small bulb?

It's likely a PR based bulb 3rd Gen Kel-Lite/Excaliber because that's the only 5C Streamlight I've ever seen. If that's the case you have a few options for a new bulb. PR-12s are very cheap but not very bright. KPR-112 is a Krypton fill and a little brighter but a little bit more expensive. If it's a PR base bulb there is a Halogen version made but it's very rare and doesn't put out much more light than a Krypton. The Xenon fill PR base bulbs are the nicest but they are tough to find because Maglite was the main supplier and stopped making them in favor of a bi-pin setup. The Xenon bi pin Mag 5 cell setups will work and put out a brighter, whiter light than a PR or KPR.

I did a whole big write up on PR base bulbs if you're interested at: http://maglitehistory.blogspot.com/2017/05/pr-flange-base-bulb-specs.html

I also have a write up on 3rd Gen Kel-Lite Streamlights: http://otherflashlights.blogspot.com/2017/06/3rd-generation-kel-lites-and.html

If that's what you have.

The switch covers for those lights aren't produced anymore so if you'r ein need of one you'll have to pick up a whole one on e-bay and take it apart. I've tried to restore a couple of these and most of the parts are pressed in so they don't easily come out. If you're in need of parts beyond the switch cover I would shelve the light and pickup something new.


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## bykfixer

The switch cover is a toughy. The original one that looks like a target are long gone. 

None of my parts sources have anything for those 3rd gen Kel-Lite Streamlights. 
Have you tried a Maglite cover Lift'd?

I found some PR based Xenon Mag bulbs at eBay, but they run about $6 apiece. Top bulb lists HPR40 (6 volt halogen 4.5w) for about $4 apiece. They also list HPR 36 (5.5v halogen, 1amp) for the same. 

KPR112 is a good bulb too, like Lift'd stated. Halogens run hot, yet in the case of a flashlight not much brighter. 

I use the PR based Mag xenons.


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## LiftdT4R

Unfortunately a Mag cover won't work. The Streamlight is a larger hole and different design.

I like the Xenon bi-pin bulbs the best. I think they give a very nice beam and tint. However, I picked up a ton of KPR bulbs in all different voltages for next to nothing on flea bay so I've been using those in all my Incans lately.


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## SG688

Don't know how long the reactivation will last, but until then, previously posted pictures of my old Kel-Lite D Ring end cap


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## SG688

And again, don't know how long these will be good, but for now ... pages from the 1979 Safariland catalog showing the Kel-Lite flashlight line.


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## SG688

Circa 1989 Sure-Fire 6P with early 60 lumen 6LF module predating the P60, delivered in a Sure-Fire 6 plastic box.


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## LiftdT4R

Wow!! Thank you so much for posting this info! I've never seen the Kel-Lite or Surefire stuff before. What's really interesting and I did not know is that it appears Kel-Lite, under Norm Nelson, continues to produce the 1st Gen C Cell with the plastic switch as a less expensive alternative to the upgraded 2nd Gen with the metal switch. They advertise the 2nd Gen C Cell as a "Heavy Duty"

Forgive me because I'm pretty new here and don't know of you. Do you have a large collection? I would love to see more of it and know any back story if ya don't mind. I have a small Kel-Lite blog at: http://otherflashlights.blogspot.com/ and I'm always looking to add any info before it is lost to time. 

I also have a really unique 2nd Gen Safariland branded Kel-Lite that I'm guessing was the result of the partnership in the ads above. I've heard that Kel-Lite was losing money by the late 70s under Norm Nelson and Safariland contributed a lot of capital to keep it running. They were eventually sold to Streamlight in 1983. Below is a pic of my Safariland Kel-Lite supposedly produced around 1981 or 1982.


----------



## bykfixer

Good stuff SG. Thanks for adding more filler to the blanks. 



Photobucket has unlocked everybodys old pix. Who knows for how long though.( ie the abtomat thread works again)

Right now they are having a sale on subscription service. A buck 99 a month or $19.99/ year. 

I sent 'em $20 just now to make sure if they re-lock those "free" accounts from 3rd party hosting I won't have to fix the links again.


----------



## LiftdT4R

bykfixer said:


> Good stuff SG. Thanks for adding more filler to the blanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Photobucket has unlocked everybodys old pix. Who knows for how long though.( ie the abtomat thread works again)
> 
> Right now they are having a sale on subscription service. A buck 99 a month or $19.99/ year.
> 
> I sent 'em $20 just now to make sure if they re-lock those "free" accounts from 3rd party hosting I won't have to fix the links again.



Darn! I switched over all my links on CPF and another board to Imgur. Guess I saved all of $20 though...


----------



## bykfixer

Imgur gave me grief from the outset. I just did the '~original' fix and all but a few worked again. 

I had fixed probably a thousand photos at various forums, but it's nice to know the ones I missed (or just hadn't fixed yet) show again.


----------



## SG688

LiftdT4R said:


> Forgive me because I'm pretty new here and don't know of you.



Everybody was excited when I first posted those catalog pages ... ten !! ... years ago. The page with Norm Nelson didn't load; I'll try again.

I'm a user/accumulator/pack rat more than a collector. I've simply kept the things - and catalogs - I had years ago. Obviously, I'm not very active here now.


My early 1980's Kel-Lites are marked Kel-Lite on the tail cap. That Safariland marking is surely unusual.


As noted in one of those old threads, I had a Streamlight / Kel-Lite and didn't like it. Maglite pattern with push button switch in the body v. the Kel-Lite style switch screwed to the side .. and the switch was a reverse clickie. I gave it away.



This picture of Norm Nelson was on the second page of the catalog along with other principals in the company.


----------



## snakebite

its definitely a pr bulb and is halogen.
obtaining bulbs is no problem for me as i have a bunch of mag prototype xenons in 3,4,5,and 6 cell types.
looking into flexible 3d printer filament to repop some button covers.
i have heard of this material but not seen it.
if this works out of course i will share the files and name the filament supplier.



LiftdT4R said:


> Do ya have a pic? Is it a PR base bulb or is the whole reflector assembly attached to a small bulb?
> 
> It's likely a PR based bulb 3rd Gen Kel-Lite/Excaliber because that's the only 5C Streamlight I've ever seen. If that's the case you have a few options for a new bulb. PR-12s are very cheap but not very bright. KPR-112 is a Krypton fill and a little brighter but a little bit more expensive. If it's a PR base bulb there is a Halogen version made but it's very rare and doesn't put out much more light than a Krypton. The Xenon fill PR base bulbs are the nicest but they are tough to find because Maglite was the main supplier and stopped making them in favor of a bi-pin setup. The Xenon bi pin Mag 5 cell setups will work and put out a brighter, whiter light than a PR or KPR.
> 
> I did a whole big write up on PR base bulbs if you're interested at: http://maglitehistory.blogspot.com/2017/05/pr-flange-base-bulb-specs.html
> 
> I also have a write up on 3rd Gen Kel-Lite Streamlights: http://otherflashlights.blogspot.com/2017/06/3rd-generation-kel-lites-and.html
> 
> If that's what you have.
> 
> The switch covers for those lights aren't produced anymore so if you'r ein need of one you'll have to pick up a whole one on e-bay and take it apart. I've tried to restore a couple of these and most of the parts are pressed in so they don't easily come out. If you're in need of parts beyond the switch cover I would shelve the light and pickup something new.


----------



## bla2000

In case others can't find the abtomat thread referred to a few post above then this is it. It's good to see those photos again.


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## bykfixer

^^ Thank you!!


----------



## 1pt21

bykfixer said:


> Lift'd, you commented once on the interest in the history of GT Price. I've looked around and so far not much to add. But according to lights submitted to the flashlight museum they have been around at least since 1945 and specialized in plastic lights.
> 
> I found an interesting Bell Systems 2D light at eBay from the 1950's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They called it a "pyramid switch" light



AHH Byk, you lucky SOB... Once again you've struck (something that I consider) gold!!!

I've been on the hunt for any "Bell System" lights for my Dad since we spoke about it a month or so back, aaand of course you find one LOL!

Can you post a pic of a close up of the Bell Systems printing on the light by chance? Looks to be pretty well worn off from what I can see in the pic quoted above.

Thanks man!

Oh wait did you see it, or buy it?? If it's still floating around ebay would you mind PM'ing me the auction link??

Thank you again


----------



## bykfixer

Pm incoming. Not the one in the photo but one like it.

I had used a photo from a sale but it is gone.


----------



## bykfixer

Flashlightlens dot com has 66mm lenses for big head Kel-Lites now. 





I chose a slightly difused acrylite to clean up the beam of a PR xenon Mag bulb.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Very nice!!

I finally had some time to sit down this weekend and put my 1968 Kel-Lite back together. This is one I really like and got lucky finding. It's an extremely low serial, #573, and was sold to the Missouri State Highway Patrol. I talked to Don Keller and confirmed it's from one of the first batches. It's a 5D and it's polished aluminum with a clear coat. I was able to get everything working and I tried a few new techniques with the reflector. I stripped and polished it and it came out ok. It throws a decent beam, kind of floody since it's a duller finish. When I have some time I think I'm going to hit it with a white primer and a coat or two of Almost Chrome. I've always wanted to find a way to restore these old reflectors because they're often the hardest parts to source and I get a few requests for restorations here and there.





















Not too bad for a 50 year old light.


----------



## LiftdT4R

I haven't seen much action here lately so I figured I'd post a nice little lot of lights I picked up recently.

They are plastic Pro-Lights. For those not familiar Pro-Light is the company Don Keller founded after leaving Kel-Lite. Pro-Lights were a reference to Kel-Lites being marketed as "The Professional Light". They were originally done in aluminum but because they were produced in a union shop the cost was deemed to be too high so VSI, the parent company of Kel-Lite began experimenting with plastic models. The bottom 2 black lights have an aluminum barrel and end cap but a plastic head while the top 3 lights are all plastic. The barrels were the least expensive part of the light to make because there wasn't very much machining involved.
















Two of the lights are the very rare large head models. Before Mag-Lite came out there weren't any focusable flashlights so in order to achieve either a spot or flood light the head size was varied. A larger head produced more flood and a smaller head produced a tighter beam, a spot light. The heads are very large. I've shown them below next to a standard D cell Mag-Lite for reference.






Thanks for looking and hope you enjoyed these obscure lights!!!


----------



## konifans

Gold Kel-Lite 2C, this photo is from the seller. I should get it in 2 weeks.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Very nice!! You bet me to it on the bay, lol. I did see that was a Covina model so it's going to be a super early light! Please let us know what the serial is when you get it. I'm willing to bet it's very low. Someone took awesome care of that light when they owned it!


----------



## bykfixer

Feeling jelly here. 
Good score(s) fellows. 


One guy in another thread he still uses his Tekna Splash-Lite after *33 years*.


----------



## konifans

konifans said:


> Gold Kel-Lite 2C, this photo is from the seller. I should get it in 2 weeks.



I received the light but it has battery leakage inside the light and probably because of this I cannot remove the tailcap. What a pity. I have to return the light. 
This is the Covina version, the head, barrel and tailcap were well polished so the surface is smooth. That is better than the later Barstow version. I am not sure if it had a special polishing process for gold anodizing. And the knurling is better, too. It has *no *serial number on the barrel.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Don't return it! Sell it to me or send it my way, the original seller will likely junk it and that would be a shame for such a rare light. I'd be happy to take a look at it for you and fix it or add it to my collection. Please shoot me a PM. Thanks!!!

If you would like it fixed I'd be more than happy to do it free of charge if you can cover shipping and any parts. Of course there is a risk it won't be successful or may damage the light. I've gotten every light fixed I've tried some have just come out a little better than others.

Here's a nice gold Maglite I just fixed that had 2 seized batteries and a stuck end cap. Just as good as new when it was completed.


----------



## bykfixer

Definitely!! 

Lift'd can do it.

I had a junky Vare-Beam that was sun faded, rusty, and plagued by work bench destruction to remove a stuck tailcap and he made it look pretty good. Ha, he even made it round again and got most of the vice marks out of it. 
Magically he got the sun fade on one side to match the unfaded side too.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Lol, I don't know about the sun fade but I am able to do quite a bit with some rough lights. No guarantees but I haven't lost one yet. That Vari-Beam is a sweet one! Low serial intermediate one if IIRC. Aw heck, I know ya got some pics!


----------



## konifans

Thanks mate! Unfortunately I already returned the light two days ago...


----------



## bykfixer

I'd like to take the time to mention that Lumens Factory is doing some great things for some of the late model cop lights like the Pelican M6, Streamlights TL2 incan and Stinger incan along with SureFire products. 
The SureFire stuff is well known but....
Mark also makes LED upgrades for Streamlights and Pelicans. The Pelican upgrades also fit Pentagon products. The TL2 upgrade also fits NiteFighter lights. 

I've recently seen where Mark @LF along with another CPF member are colaborating on possible McClicky switches and sleeve for the weak link in the chain Pelican M3/6 lights. That could open up a new chapter for what was once one of the best 6 volt cop lights made in California USA.


----------



## bykfixer

Feeling nostalgic: Kel-Lite style




But which one?





The 4C has a 3cell Brinkmann krypton bulb for a nice throwey white beam thanks to ultraclear glass. 

The 3C uses the stock lexan for a bit wider spot and better blend with 2x 18650's and a PR based 4cell Mag bulb.

The 2C is outfitted with an ultraclear polycarbinate, and fires a crisp white beam from a pair of 18500 LifePo4's and a PR based 4cell Mag bulb. 





Decisions, decisions.....


----------



## LiftdT4R

Oooh that's a tough one. My vote is for the 2C. I love how compact those little lights are with their external switch. I use mine all the time!!


----------



## LiftdT4R

Konifans, I was able to purchase your 2C from the ebay seller. I got her all fixed up and good as new. If you're interested in having it back please let me know. I'm more than happy to let it go for what I have into it which is probably about what you paid for it the first time around. Until then it's looking sharp with my #573 serial 5D and Lanyard ring end 2C. I've heard there was a blue Kel-lite also but this is the most colorful assortment I've ever seen.


----------



## bykfixer

Can you show a gold tailcap pic Lift'd? I'm curious if it has the Kel-Lite logo or not. It looks like it's a bit more rounded than non logo'd ones. 

The white slider is cool too. A lego with the white switch plate on a black barrel, gold ends.... stuff like that would be sweet too.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Yessir, please see below. The first year of Kel-Lite production was 1968. 1968 and 1969 lights have no stamping on the tail cap and no serials. Serials started in 1971. That puts this light right at 1970.

Kel-Lite, like Maglite later on, produced gold finishes from time to time and sold them in small quantities. That's likely what this one is. It came from a company that specializes in estate sales so unfortunately I didn't get too much info with it.


----------



## konifans

Thanks LiftdT4R. I think you should keep the light as you saved it. The machining of this version seems much better than the later ones, especially the tailcap which I think it might be produced by another supplier...


----------



## bykfixer

On my 4C I found myself bidding against Don Keller who wanted the tailcap, which is like the gold one shown. 

He told me later that he stopped bidding when it hit +$35.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Thanks!! If ya change your mind lemme know, she's all yours. The machining does feel better overall. It could just be that the tooling was new since the light is from so early in the the production run. The 1979 Maglites are like this too. Very sharp engraving and one of the best grips on any light I've ever felt. The rumor is that Maglite actually dulled down the grip because it was tearing up holsters and pants because it was too sharp and I believe it.

I think Don is mainly using the lights as parts lights because he gets a lot of inquiries to fix up old Kel-Lites. If a light has a good reflector I know he'll pay $40 - $50 for it because replacements reflectors are impossible to find. He's not really buying to collect though, he has mostly one of every model you can think of. He's asked me a couple times about restoring reflectors and I know I have to experiment a little more. The original reflectors were electroplated and that is not easy to duplicate. I've had luck with using aircraft stripper and polishing. While not the same as an electroplated it's 70% of the way there. I've been meaning to prime one and hit it with almost chrome. I have a buddy that restores vintage Hot Wheels and he's had super good luck with that method. It's a 95% match to the original reflectors.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Any of you guys going to be bidding on the NIB very early Gemlite? I think I might. Gemlites were Kel-Lite knock offs, they were made by one of the 3rd part machine shops that produced Kel-Lite parts because Kel-Lite demand was so high and Don had a hard time filling orders. I have 1 but it's a later style.

This is the one that's for sale:


----------



## bykfixer

Go for it.


----------



## konifans

Go for it!

The switch looks like a Bianchi?


----------



## bykfixer

If you score it please show us the details.
Not price, but stuff like bulb holder, switch details etc.


----------



## LiftdT4R

You got it and I'm going for it. Unfortunately I don't have a Bianchi to compare it to. One of the few gaps in my collection. Anyway, I have a light, courtesy of Mr. Fixer, that has been my favorite for quite some time. Sometimes the best things really are free. It's a 6R and IIRC I traded Mr. Fixer for a resto on a 3D Vari-Beam. The batteries were sourced free from work, errrr uhh they were uhh a donation. The M60L I purchased with a C2 Centurion on the bay that I resold at a profit without the drop in so this light is as close to free as it gets. Amazing I use it all the time. The ~150 lumen output is actually too bright sometimes and it gets about a 2 hour run time on the 16340s. I like it so much so that I'm thinking about spending the coin on a M31LL or an M61NLL.











Also, did anyone see this "Brass Streamlight" on fleabay? It's a rare 3D camo for only $30. I'd pick it up if I didn't already have a 3D and 4C. These only come up once a year or two.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Anybody see this "Hi-Lite" on the bay? It looks identical to the Gem-Lite I just purchased. Does anyone know anything about them? Looks to be a Kel-Lite knock off. It's stamped with what looks like a distributor's name, Herrett's Stocks Inc, Twin Falls, Idaho, on the side opposite Hi-Lite.


----------



## konifans

A Vari-Beam 4C with serial number 40000002
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-4-C-V...53.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xvari+beam.TRS0


----------



## Bullzeyebill

LiftdT4R, do you use the 6R tube. ?

Bill


----------



## LiftdT4R

konifans said:


> A Vari-Beam 4C with serial number 40000002
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-4-C-V...53.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xvari+beam.TRS0



Wow! That sold quick!!



Bullzeyebill said:


> LiftdT4R, do you use the 6R tube. ?
> 
> Bill



Hey Bill, I don't. I never could find a good use for it. So I put it in my Surefire parts box. Do you know of any battery setups it would work with. It's pretty short so I'm guessing maybe 2 x 18500?


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Four MiMh 2/3A might work with P60 LA. 2x18500's would would not fit, 2x17500 might be ok.

Bill


----------



## konifans

​​
I got these ligths in NEW condition.... The Vari-Beam should be the most beautiful light I have. Can anyone tell me, that this blue color is same as the current blue Maglites? I do not have a blue Mag but from the photos I have seen in the internet, it seems that the blue Mags are darker than the Vari-Beam? I am thinking getting a blue and a silver mini-Mag, and swap their bezel caps and tail caps...to pretend a 2AA Vari-Beam...:naughty:


----------



## konifans

“A Cutie For A Cutie”





































2D, 4D, 5D, 6D, 7D, so missing a 3D..
I got the 4D and 5D in new condition.​


​​


----------



## ven

Beautiful examples konifans, and an extra WOW to that blue/silver varibeam


----------



## bykfixer

More epic-epicness konifans.

The vare-beam blue is nowhere near close to the current blue being used by Maglite. Like sky blue versus cop uniform blue. 

I think Lift'd could probably tell you when the vare-blue was ceased.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Hey now! Very nice! Did you score that low serial Vari-Beam too?? It's one of the few lights I am really really sad to have missed out on.

The Vari-Beams were anodized in Standard Blue but Standard Blue changed to a much darker color in 1990. The old Standard Blue then was brought back as a Sky Blue, Shimmer Blue or Ice Blue on the 1992+ Panther Lights. 

I have pics of most of these finishes on my bog at: http://maglitehistory.blogspot.com/2017/08/special-order-colors-and-panther.html


----------



## konifans

LiftdT4R said:


> Hey now! Very nice! Did you score that low serial Vari-Beam too?? It's one of the few lights I am really really sad to have missed out on.
> 
> The Vari-Beams were anodized in Standard Blue but Standard Blue changed to a much darker color in 1990. The old Standard Blue then was brought back as a Sky Blue, Shimmer Blue or Ice Blue on the 1992+ Panther Lights.
> 
> I have pics of most of these finishes on my bog at: http://maglitehistory.blogspot.com/2017/08/special-order-colors-and-panther.html


No I did not bid that 4C Vari-Beam. I regret the decision I made. I have no special interest with serial number but when I receive that 2C Vari-Beam I really like that blue and silver combination. I like that sky blue so much!


----------



## LiftdT4R

I tried to take a better picture. It's of a Midnight Blue, 1990+ Standard Blue Mini Mag, Vari-Beam and an Ice Blue 2D. I'm not the greatest at taking pics but I think the Midnight blue is a dark purple. The Standard Blue is a royal blue. The Vari-Beams have a couple different shades. I have about a dozen total, about 4 of which are brand new. Some match the Ice Blue exactly and some are a little darker. Hope this helps!!


----------



## konifans

Got a used blue AA on Ebay but I think it is royal blue and darker than the Vari-Beam's sky blue.
So here is a *fake *Vari-Beam AA


----------



## LiftdT4R

Very nice! Only a handful of AA Vari-Beams were made at the end of Vari-Beam production and the beginning of Mini Maglite production in 1984. I've heard less than 1,000 total. I only know of one in existence and I've been trying to buy it for the last couple of years. 

I think I have some very good, rare, interesting additions set to arrive this week that hopefully I'll have time to post. They came from the estate of someone who was most certainly a member on here and lived in either New Hampshire or Vermont. He had a large collection of lights mostly Surefire and Fivemega but a couple odd Mags and Kel-Lites too. Maybe someone can help me identify him when I get the lights in.


----------



## konifans

Maglite Magcharger Halogen
Nothing special, but still a California cop light :twothumbs
I have 3 with single mode (RX1019) and 1 with multi mode (RE1019)


















I have never seen an incandescent flashlight comes with the function of adjusting brightness and strobe... Maybe this is the only one?











RX1019 @2002






RX1019 @2005 and RE1019 @2011
​
You see the difference of the Halogen lamps?


----------



## LiftdT4R

All right, so as promised here's some pics and a little history of a very rare light I was lucky enough to pick up recently.

Pharo-Tech / Luma-Tech started the whole re-chargeable flashlight market. They originally produced conversions for stock Kel-Lites and L.A. Screw lights that added NiCad Batteries and a special end cap along with their wall mounted charger. In 1979 they developed the first specifically designed rechargeable flashlight. It was manufactured in conjunction with Kel-Lite but unfortunately only 35 units total were produced as prototypes to gauge interest in the market. This is one of those original 35 produced. Kel-Lite stopped production shortly after and was sold to Streamlight where Streamlight worked to develop their own SL-20, the first commercially available rechargeable flashlight. These Pharo-Tech rechargeable lights were produced in extremely small numbers and were never commercially available but nonetheless are an important part of flashlight history and served as the proof of concept for most flashlights that are around today.

This light is shown below with a first gen 2C Kel-Lite. It is longer than a 2C but shorter than a 3C. It is likely cut down from a 3C to fit the special 4 cell NiCad battery pack.






















This light also has a ceramic base Halogen bulb. It has no writing or stamping on it and I haven't seen another like it.








Mine is missing the cradle charger but a pic of it can be seen in the Norm Nelson estate collection at: http://kellite911.blogspot.com/ about half way down on the page along with some early sales literature.


Shown below is this prototype Pharo-Tech along with one of the most special lights I own, the prototype of the Mag Charger. I have a couple 2nd gen SL-20s also but I've never been lucky enough to find a 1st gen.













I also have a long long write up about early rechargeable flashlights on both my blogs at http://otherflashlights.blogspot.com/2017/08/streamlight-sl-20-and-early.html and https://maglitehistory.blogspot.com/2017/07/1980-prototype-mag-charger-and.html


----------



## bykfixer

Realizing this threads revolves around vintage California lights, Maglite has managed to remain a viable flashlight maker in 2018 with new versions of Solitaires, C size and D size lighting tools. They've even reintroduced 4 and 6D sized lights that appear very similar to the classics while incorparating Maglite reliability.
And still made in California from parts sourced locally when practical.


----------



## LiftdT4R

I am really digging the new ML25IT and LT. I have been meaning to pick one up, twisty is my preferred format and they are such a simple light they must be reliable. That being said I've only seen one officer carrying a Maglite out of all them that I work with and it was a Mag-Tac. I haven't seen a full size mag on the force in years and years. I'd say it's 60% Streamlights, 39% Surefires, and 1% others.


----------



## bykfixer

I remember years ago a State Trooper saying "I don't know why people say Maglites are cop lights. Cops carry Streamlights". I took that to mean departments _issued_ Streamlights so that's what police carried. 

My local yocals carry junk and leave their issued Streamlights in the car. The Statees carry super Stingers in my state. Some have smaller backup lights. 

I'm just bummed that so many of the remaining California Cop Light companies have chosen foreign made, but understand since they compete with all those junk light makers these days.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Anyone see this beaut on everyone's favorite auction site? It's an extremely rare 1st Gen Stud-Lite. Looks like it needs a little work but looks complete. I actually don't think it's as early as the seller says, Norm Nelson came up with the Stud-Lite concept and made them after Don's departure. Kel-Lite under Nelson never updated the C cell design to the 2nd gen, they continued to produce 1st first gen models due to lack of demand for a C cell so this is likely from after 1972. Very cool piece and I would be a buyer if I wasn't building a motorcycle this winter. My wife told me I have to stick to Maglites only while I'm putting my bike together.


----------



## konifans

Interesting light. Why is the tail cap so long? To store a spare bulb?


----------



## LiftdT4R

Yes, that's how you can tell it's a later light too. It's Kel-Lite / Stud-Lite "Store-a-bulb" option. These came out later in the run but I can't remember the exact date.


----------



## konifans

Rare "smoke cutter"

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Smoke-Cutt...m=302937210893&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219


----------



## konifans

Just bought a Silver Maglite 2C from Icarus.
That is very rare and beautiful. 
Photos to follow...

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...de-Orange-Maglite-2D-Silver-3C-Blue-2C-amp-3C


----------



## bykfixer

LiftdT4R said:


> Yes, that's how you can tell it's a later light too. It's Kel-Lite / Stud-Lite "Store-a-bulb" option. These came out later in the run but I can't remember the exact date.



Don told me the store-a-bulb for D series came out with 2nd gen lights. We didn't discuss the C size lights.


----------



## konifans

bykfixer said:


> Don told me the store-a-bulb for D series came out with 2nd gen lights. We didn't discuss the C size lights.



I just bought a first gen. 3D with extended tailcap, I guess it can also "store a bulb"?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ke...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## LiftdT4R

Hey, yes, that is also the extended, "store-a-bulb", end cap. Nice large head BTW, looks brand new! Almost all of the D cell Kel-Lites had them except for the very earliest. I only have one, a very early 5D in silver that has the flat end cap.


----------



## LiftdT4R

A relative of mine recently asked me to take a look at an old flashlight to try to make it brighter. I figured it was likely an old bright star or Maglite but to my surprise it was actually a Streamlight Excaliber and it's unlike any I've seen before.











For starters it has the very rare lanyard ring end cap option. It's also red, well now pink. Unfortunately it is the Excaliber and not the 3rd Gen Kel-Lite though so the reflector, switch and lens are not serviceable. These lights were very high quality but for me that dings them quite a bit. It's tough to compete with Maglite when you basically have a throwaway light the first time something breaks on it. I also have a 3rd Gen Kel-Lite in blue which does have the serviceable reflector and lens. As shown on the end cap it is post Kel-Lite and Streamlight merger due to the Norristown / Barstow stamping but it is before Streamlight ultimately closed the Barstow location which puts this light in the mid 80s.






I put a generic PR based LED drop in in the light with a fresh set of Duracell alkalines. Over I recommended sticking the light on a shelf and picking up a new one but he's rather attached. He remembers getting it in the mid 80s from his employer, a petroleum company and using it ever since.


----------



## bykfixer

Great Scott!!!

More awesome-awesomness!!!


----------



## LiftdT4R

Lol, we should start a new thread: Crazy lights your relatives have that you never knew about.

My uncle totally thought this was just a normal light to have and use. I tried to tell him what big a deal it was and he looked at me like I had 3 heads. Well no different than any other relative really......


----------



## bykfixer

One summer day my mother in law asked if I would change the batteries in her flashlight. I said "sure thing, where is it?"... She pointed to a cabinet and when I opened the door I let out a "holy smokes"... She said "what's wrong?" I said "nothing, I just wasn't expecting to see an Eveready Captain from the 1960's".... She says "what, that old thing?"...
For Christmas that year I gave her a brand new 2aa LED flashlight.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Did she give you the Captain?

Bill


----------



## bykfixer

She offered it to me Bill. I declined and left it in the cabinet I found it in. 

It had been her late husbands and I had purchased a few NIP ones that year. 

I gave her a minimag LED that Christmas.
In the meantime I left her a wooden light Menards used to sell so it would match her furniture.





Like this one.

The Menards lights were being liquidated on eBay for like $8 so I bought several. 
The Captains for only like $12 from a local military supply depot where I also found some WW2 nib Fulton map readers. The Captains had JM Fields price tags on them. lol.


----------



## konifans

First Generation Kel-Lite 5C
The light is a little bit shorter than a Maglite 4C..









​




Maglite 4C v.s. Kel-Lite 5C v.s. Kel-Lite 2C


----------



## konifans

First Generation Kel-Lite 3D


















Gen. 2 V.S. Gen 1





Gen. 2 V.S. Gen 1

​​


----------



## konifans

Bianchi B-Lite 2C



























Maglite 2C V.S. Bianchi B-Lite 2C


----------



## bykfixer

I reeeeeally like that 2C B-Lite. Another fabulous score KF


----------



## konifans

Silver (Not Grey) Magltie 2C


----------



## konifans




----------



## konifans

This is a super rare Kel-Lite 1D


----------



## bykfixer

Awesome. 
Super-duper rare indeed.


----------



## konifans

1D body with 1st gen. head


----------



## LeanBurn

Cool.
What would be the estimated output on the 1D configuration?


----------



## konifans

LeanBurn said:


> Cool.
> What would be the estimated output on the 1D configuration?


There are some options but I am using a 3AA serial battery adapter with a 3-cell Maglite PR bulb. I think the output is about 20 to 30 lumens....


----------



## LiftdT4R

Hey, can't believe I missed this! Very awesome 1D!! Any story behind the previous owner? As I remember these were made so short so that they could be mounted on shotguns. In fact these were the first weapon mounted flashlight. The Kel-Lite 1D is one of the few lights I don't have that I hope to one day. The others are the BTL-26 and an original Surefire 6C. I recently picked up an extremely rare Kel-Lite recently too but I have a little research to do and some pictures to take before posting.


----------



## xxo

LiftdT4R said:


> Hey, can't believe I missed this! Very awesome 1D!! Any story behind the previous owner? As I remember these were made so short so that they could be mounted on shotguns. In fact these were the first weapon mounted flashlight. The Kel-Lite 1D is one of the few lights I don't have that I hope to one day. The others are the BTL-26 and an original Surefire 6C. I recently picked up an extremely rare Kel-Lite recently too but I have a little research to do and some pictures to take before posting.



The earliest shotgun mounted light that I can think of (aside form flashlights with frig magnets on the side slapped to the side of a shotgun's receiver) is the high standard model ten A police shotgun from c.1967 which had built in flashlight (2 cell??) and the later B model that had a clamp that took a 2 cell Kel-Lite (although other cell lengths and brands, including Malites would fit in the clamp). apparently the gun was a jam-o-matic and the recoil often blew out the flashlight bulbs.


----------



## bykfixer

The first known weapon mounted light was a candle lantern on a flint lock pistol. Along the way folks always considered gun mounted lighting but recoil was always an issue. The light bulb was not immune from that. 

Spring mounted bulb fasteners helped some when the PR bulb became to norm. I cannot say who or when the first "mounted" flashlight was done, but Don Keller used tried and true ideas in his thinking when he devised the Kel-Lite. 
He was kinda like Evel Kneivel who'd look at a line of buses and point his arm at an angle and say "build the ramp about like that angle". A very unscientific way of being the first one to do something never tried before. 

I like to imagine a couple of fairly young policemen trying out a 2C Kel-Lite strapped to a Mossburg at a range just to see what could happen in about 1969. Perhaps it was a couple of Irish mobsters in Hells Kitchen during prohibition using an Eveready with an E10 bulb (prior to the PR). "See thereuh Pauly you can see the guy beforah ya wack 'im".

Who know? However it went the advent of the vintage California cop light took giant steps towards achieving the goal of still seeing light from a mounted light after the first "pow" happened.


----------



## LiftdT4R

xxo said:


> The earliest shotgun mounted light that I can think of (aside form flashlights with frig magnets on the side slapped to the side of a shotgun's receiver) is the high standard model ten A police shotgun from c.1967 which had built in flashlight (2 cell??) and the later B model that had a clamp that took a 2 cell Kel-Lite (although other cell lengths and brands, including Malites would fit in the clamp). apparently the gun was a jam-o-matic and the recoil often blew out the flashlight bulbs.



Thanks for the info! I stand corrected. I just saw Don's site says he developed the first **aluminum** weapons mounted flashlight.

Mr. Fixer, he's got a pretty cool pic too. I would love to see one of these in action!!


----------



## xxo

LiftdT4R said:


> Thanks for the info! I stand corrected. I just saw Don's site says he developed the first **aluminum** weapons mounted flashlight.
> 
> Mr. Fixer, he's got a pretty cool pic too. I would love to see one of these in action!!




Here you go (if you can consider it action?):



...shows why these guns have such a poor reputation.


----------



## bykfixer

I'm pretty sure the flashlights used by bank robbers in the movie "Finding Steve MacQueen" were Kel-Lites. 

A movie where among other things they showed scenes from a bank vault robbery in 1972 and the bandits were using black tube flashlights that really looked like 3rd gen Kel-Lites. Now the third gen were not out in 72 but at one point I coulda sworn the switch in the scene was the third gen type. 

Whatever they were acuracy-wise it was nice to see what looked like vintange California cop lights instead of Eveready Captains or Rayovac Sportsman.


----------



## RWT1405

Not sure how I missed this thread, but I have found it very interesting!

I'm not sure why, but I'm not able to post pictures now, as I was going to show you my original L.A. Screw Smoke-Cutter (purchased new in 1982, by me) and my original StreamLight SL-20 (purchased new in 1985, by me).

I used them for years, purchasing the StreamLight SL-20 after getting tired of changing the Smoke-Cutters batts all the time, however it (Smoke-Cutter) remained useful, being kept with my bunker gear and getting used regularly for fires, etc.

Thanks for bringing back many memories!


----------



## LiftdT4R

Very cool, Imgur is the best bet for hosting pics. You can click on the BBC Code link after uploading your pics and past that here.

I'd love to see pics and any stories too! Were/are you a firefighter?

I didn't know until recently that Code 4 is code for "no further assistance required". Basically, everything is all good. Nice marketing slogan for a flashlight geared towards law enforcement professionals. I did a write up on Code 4s with some old advertisements on my blog at: http://otherflashlights.blogspot.com/2017/06/gt-price-and-la-screw-code-4-lights.html

I have the contact info for an old Code 4 dealer in TX. I was able to buy some parts off of him. Supposedly he has some NOS lights too but I was never able to quite pry them from his grip. It's where I got most of the adverts and info from too.


----------



## bykfixer

Today, January 9th 2021 is National Law Enforcement Day

So fire up those jumbo Calofornia Cop Lights this evening in celebration. 







Streamlight 4D Kel-Lite and 3D Maglite in all their glory.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Nice, that's a great idea! Think I'll get any crazy looks if I use this on my walk tonight?


----------



## bykfixer

Not up close……
"Back away from the flashlight" "back……away……from the ……flashlight maggot"

I thought about carrying my big-head Dirty Harry 3D Rayovac Sportsman but there's no dent in the head like the one in the original Dirty Harry movie……so I may lego the big head from a Kel-Lite onto that Streamlight for affect. lol


----------



## konifans

Got some more Kellites....





Two x 2D First Generation

















Covina





3D First Generation


----------



## xxo

Wow! Those are nice.


----------



## konifans

I think Surefire it also a California cop light company?


----------



## vicv

Look at the size of the head on that thing! What is it? I want that!
They all look nice though with the contrasting silver rings


----------



## bykfixer

You have a real nice collection konifans.

This thread started out to be about pre-SureFire simply to not become just another SureFire thread while it was being built as a legacy thread about lights during the infancy of alluminum tube lights built in California USA.

Now to have added LaserProducts early on was not off limits but nobody chose to. I call those Pre-PK products.
See, while Don Keller, Tony Maglica and others were changing the flashlight world, Dr John Matthews had a hand in fiber optic technology and laser sites for pistols. Then later on using SLR camera flash batteries and super bright light bulbs he changed the world of California Cop Light from a Louisville Slugger sized light to a 2C sized "baby" cop light to achieve a similar output.

Now that many of the short-lived, non famous companies along with the famous ones are well chronicled, perhaps it's time to re-light this thread with post-Don Keller companies like Pelican, Pentagon, more about Tekna, and by all means the company that dethroned King Maglite…SureFire during the PK days and any others folks happen to come across including honorary California Cop Light maker Lumens Factory who keeps the old incans like Streamlight, Pelican and SureFire going with a few of his own designs like the Seraph.


A Pentagon eX2 and a pair of Pelican 2320's called the M6. The Pentagon and Pelican share the same bulb module and tailcap switch be it clicky or twisty. The eX2 is a twisty. The 2320's are clicky. Yes that is a Malkoff tailcap on the black one.


----------



## RWT1405

LiftdT4R said:


> Very cool, Imgur is the best bet for hosting pics. You can click on the BBC Code link after uploading your pics and past that here.
> 
> I'd love to see pics and any stories too! Were/are you a firefighter?



Yes, I am a Paramedic/Firefighter.

Here are a few bad pictures of my Smoke Cutter and a couple of my old StreamLights.


----------



## konifans

vicv said:


> Look at the size of the head on that thing! What is it? I want that!
> They all look nice though with the contrasting silver rings


It is a Surefire 9N turbo head with N3 lamp assembly.

Maglite also has a beautiful silver ring Magcharger, the best of incandescent Maglite. Although it is larger and heavier... I use the Magcharger more often, with 2 x 32700 6000mah Lifepo4, and a WA bulb which I believe is a 6V 30W bulb, and Fivemega G4 bi pin socket. It is easy to get a Philips 5761 (6V 35W) for it. The 32700 Lifepo4 is a perfect replacement of the stock NiMh or NiCa battery pack, lighter, more energy, longer life and same voltage.


----------



## konifans

bykfixer said:


> You have a real nice collection konifans.
> 
> This thread started out to be about pre-SureFire simply to not become just another SureFire thread while it was being built as a legacy thread about lights during the infancy of alluminum tube lights built in California USA.
> 
> Now to have added LaserProducts early on was not off limits but nobody chose to. I call those Pre-PK products.
> See, while Don Keller, Tony Maglica and others were changing the flashlight world, Dr John Matthews had a hand in fiber optic technology and laser sites for pistols. Then later on using SLR camera flash batteries and super bright light bulbs he changed the world of California Cop Light from a Louisville Slugger sized light to a 2C sized "baby" cop light to achieve a similar output.
> 
> Now that many of the short-lived, non famous companies along with the famous ones are well chronicled, perhaps it's time to re-light this thread with post-Don Keller companies like Pelican, Pentagon, more about Tekna, and by all means the company that dethroned King Maglite…SureFire during the PK days and any others folks happen to come across including honorary California Cop Light maker Lumens Factory who keeps the old incans like Streamlight, Pelican and SureFire going with a few of his own designs like the Seraph.
> 
> 
> A Pentagon eX2 and a pair of Pelican 2320's called the M6. The Pentagon and Pelican share the same bulb module and tailcap switch be it clicky or twisty. The eX2 is a twisty. The 2320's are clicky. Yes that is a Malkoff tailcap on the black one.


I agree we should talk more about the older lights. I personally like the Kel-Lite and Maglite more than Surefire simply because they are older and much bigger.


----------



## vicv

konifans said:


> It is a Surefire 9N turbo head with N3 lamp assembly.
> 
> Maglite also has a beautiful silver ring Magcharger, the best of incandescent Maglite. Although it is larger and heavier... I use the Magcharger more often, with 2 x 32700 6000mah Lifepo4, and a WA bulb which I believe is a 6V 30W bulb, and Fivemega G4 bi pin socket. It is easy to get a Philips 5761 (6V 35W) for it. The 32700 Lifepo4 is a perfect replacement of the stock NiMh or NiCa battery pack, lighter, more energy, longer life and same voltage.
> 
> View attachment 16522


Thanks. Ya I like the mag charger too although I generally don't care as much for the d cell lights. That being said some of these d cell kel lites are very nice. 
That 9n does look awesome though


----------



## LiftdT4R

I haven't been in this thread for a while because I've been mostly restoring old Maglites but........................ I finally had some time to work on a Kel-Lite and it's a very special one I've been after for a while. Can anyone guess what it is?

The light had cardboard C cells stuck in it. Along with this screw driver from a prior owner who tried to use it to get them out.






Cardboard cells were last used in the 80s so they've been in there for a while. They are actually easier to free than the new steel cells but swell much faster when left in the light.






These bezels are impossible to source replacement for so I had to break the threads on the head to get it off. Luckily I was very careful and replacement heads are still available.


----------



## bykfixer

Don has reached his 84th birthday and still plays with flashlights.

Best of luck restoring that special (gen-stud?) Kel-Lite.


----------



## LiftdT4R

bykfixer said:


> Don has reached his 84th birthday and still plays with flashlights.
> 
> Best of luck restoring that special (gen-stud?) Kel-Lite.



That's crazy! I talked to Don earlier this week to get parts for this light and to restock on some of my Maglite spares. I don't know what I'll do when he's gone because he's such a wealth of knowledge for these lights and basically the only supplier of Kel-Lite parts. There won't really be anyone else to keep these lights running. 

Good guess! But no. More rare than a Stud-Lite!


----------



## LiftdT4R

I've been after a Kel-Lite Baton Light forever and specifically an BTL-26, the longest flashlight ever made* at 26"! They come up for sale only once every few years and they go for big $$$. Well I was able to score a non-working one. There are some fantastic deals to be had on non-working lights if you don't mind putting in some elbow grease. This one I was very nervous about because it had not 1, 2, 3, or 4 but all 5 C cells stuck in it plus the face cap was stuck to the head and the stainless steel face caps are impossible to find. These lights are so long you can basically only remove them from the head end. Ohh my gosh this light was a ton of work! It works perfect now but if I wasn't after one forever I don't know if I'd do it again.  I got all of the batteries out plus a screwdriver a prior owner got stuck when he was trying to remove the cells. I drilled them out with an extended (14") drill bit and then chipped away at what remained and soaked the inside in vinegar and flushed 3 or 4 times. The batteries were cardboard Eveready C cells which were last produced in the early 80s so they were in there for a very long time. The cardboard C cells were actually easier to remove than later steel batteries.

That was the easy part.

The face cap and head were stuck together and that's what houses the bulb and reflector. The stainless steel face caps are long out of production and can't be found anywhere but the heads can be. So, I dremeled the head threads off and saved the face cap. This took me about 4 hours because I had to be careful not to damage the threads on the face cap.

Last but not least I cleaned the corrosion off of everything. I had to drill out the switch to save it because the bolt and nut were seized together. I bought the parts I needed from Don and got her all running. She's awesome!! I walk my dogs a mile each night around 11pm and there are no street lights where I live so I've used her twice for that and while she's not the brightest and she doesn't have the best beam she'll certainly take care of any possums I run across!!











I forgot to get the rubber grommet they come with for use in a duty belt but Don still has them so I'll order one the next time I get parts from him.

Anyway, it was totally worth it! I have about 12 hours of labor into it and ~$120 worth of parts. I could probably sell it for double what I have into it but I've been after one of these for a long time and I never plan to sell it. It means so much more to me because I was able to get it working and I had lots of fun doing it. I've also been after one of these lights for 10 years now.

Here's a pic with some of the other longest lights that I own. I'm not aware of any longer lights but if you know of any please let me know. I know Eveready and others have made some 7D slide switches but I think they're all shorter than a 7D Maglite.






From top to bottom they are
7D Maglite
*6C Maglite with ASP Baton
This collapses and it's aftermarket so while it's technically longer extended I don't count it as the longest light. It could be installed on a 7C for an even longer light! It is almost 30" long extended. 😮
BTL-26 Kel-Lite
My new favorite light!
7C Maglite
3D Vari-Beam for scale

I will say though that I'm not as impressed with this light as I was with the 7D Maglite. The Baton Light is actually pretty light because it's a 5C and has the spacer taking up the rest of the room. While it's longer it doesn't feel anywhere near as substantial as a 7D. I may try to run 12Cs to see how it is and install an LED PR because it's the only thing I know of that can take that voltage. It's easy to see why these didn't sell in great numbers. I could not imagine carrying this around every day or getting in and out of a car with it on my hip. Most of these lights that come up for sale are in excellent condition because they never saw much use. They're similar to the 7D Maglites. An excellent idea! But, in practice they didn't work so well.

A couple other collectors have asked me if I will also try to add a BTL-22 or BTL-18 to my collection and I'm not sure. I love Kel-Lites! I have a pretty decent collection but nowhere near the collection that some other collectors have. I've always been a Maglite collector at heart. I would much rather have an original Surefire 6 because I think the original Surefire 6, BTL-26, and 7D Maglite are the big 3 cop lights. I don't know of anyone that owns all 3 and I think they're the rarest and arguably the most influential cop lights.

Thanks for reading, hope y'all enjoyed!


----------



## konifans

Amazing! One more treasure has been saved by you again. 

I though the face cap is silver anodised aluminum instead of stainless steel? 

For C cell Kel-Lite I like the cute little 2C and I have 7 of them. And for D cell Kel-Lite I like the 7D so much and I have 3. The 7D feels much more substantial than my Maglite 6D - I don't have a 7D yet - because the Kel-Lite has a larger head. I also have a Tru-Grit 7D, which has a small head just like the Maglite but the body is so thick and the knurling is so sharp and I think the body feels much stronger than Kel-Lite or Maglite. The longest C cell flashlight I have is a Maglite 7C. I am also interested in the Kel-Lite BTL and if the price and condition is right I will definitely get some.


----------



## LiftdT4R

konifans said:


> Amazing! One more treasure has been saved by you again.
> 
> I though the face cap is silver anodised aluminum instead of stainless steel?
> 
> For C cell Kel-Lite I like the cute little 2C and I have 7 of them. And for D cell Kel-Lite I like the 7D so much and I have 3. The 7D feels much more substantial than my Maglite 6D - I don't have a 7D yet - because the Kel-Lite has a larger head. I also have a Tru-Grit 7D, which has a small head just like the Maglite but the body is so thick and the knurling is so sharp and I think the body feels much stronger than Kel-Lite or Maglite. The longest C cell flashlight I have is a Maglite 7C. I am also interested in the Kel-Lite BTL and if the price and condition is right I will definitely get some.


Thanks!! These lights are fun little projects. I wish some of them lasted a little longer because after they're done I might use them to walk the dogs for a night or two and then they go on my display shelf for a long long time. 

At least the Baton Lights have a stainless steel face cap. It's about 4 times heavier than the standard aluminum face cap. Now I know Stud-Lites and other models do have a silver aluminum face cap. The stainless steel is much more durable. It was actually easy to cut the aluminum away with the dremel because it was so much softer. Even when I did hit the stainless steel with the dremel wheel it did not damage it. The Baton Lights got the stainless instead of the aluminum to help them hold up for "policing" duties.

The BTL-26s seem to sell for the most money out of all the Baton Lights because I think a lot of people view them as the longest flashlight ever made so I think a few different types of collectors are after them. The BTL-22s and BTL-18s sell for quite a bit less.

You have an awesome collection yourself! I really like the 2 - 1/2D Kel-Lite you picked up a while back. I've been after one of those for a while.


----------



## LiftdT4R

Here are another couple of items I've been meaning to share for a while. They are a very rare 1968 1st Gen Kel-Lite and Don Keller's Manual of Defensive Tactics. The 1968 Kel-Lites were the very first ones produced and the very beginning of the aluminum cop lights. (Although this may be debatable as a company called Rudisill produced an earlier aluminum light) They are extremely difficult to find because only a few hundred were produced. I had never actually seen one until I was able to purchase this one. I don't know that I've ever seen one posted. The light is mostly the same as later 1st Gen models. The big exception is the knurled end cap. The light is also stamped San Dimas. Later lights were made in Covina or Barstow. The very early lights also lack a serial number. 

















This one is very rough but does work and is all original. It belonged to a California cop and he has engraved his name and an ID number in several places. I've never seen another and I'm not surprised as it is now 54 years old and it is believed that less than 300 were ever made. I have no break down of head sizes or cell type but I have heard that early large head D cells like this were among the rarest. The C cells were a lot more common as is true with other Kel-Lites.

The manual is from a different owner and I had been after one of these for a long time too. They are also really tough to find especially in good shape. They are an interesting look into early policing tactics using flashlights. I would love to scan and share this because they are so hard to find and I think there is a lot of interest but I don't know the legality of that. I don't see a copy right listed anywhere and these are no longer for sale but I'll let someone more knowledgeable than me chime in.


----------



## lumen aeternum

LiftdT4R said:


> I would love to scan and share this because they are so hard to find and I think there is a lot of interest but I don't know the legality of that. I don't see a copy right listed anywhere



Without a copyright, and a defunct publisher, copy away. If anyone claims ownership they can file a takedown notice if they mind.


----------



## bykfixer

It's kinda strange how the original inception (to my knowledge) were never produced until his days at Brinkmann.


----------



## LiftdT4R

lumen aeternum said:


> Without a copyright, and a defunct publisher, copy away. If anyone claims ownership they can file a takedown notice if they mind.



I would love to copy and share as I have a high resolution scanner at work. Can the mods or anyone chime in to let me know if this is allowable here? I can post them in this thread.



bykfixer said:


> It's kinda strange how the original inception (to my knowledge) were never produced until his days at Brinkmann.



What do you mean? I certainly like push button switches a lot better than slide switches. The slide switches I think were the weak leak on these older lights. I get they're a lot simpler and cheaper to manufacture, and make for a shorter light but even the best designs didn't seem as durable as a good push button switch.


----------



## bykfixer

If you look at the photos of what were supposed to be prototypes in post 424 and look at the Brinkmann……
But when the protypes were conceived a sliding switch was the norm. Actually I like the gen 1 slider. It was one of my favorite features on the B-Lites he did with John Bianchi as well.


----------



## Bonedoc

I don't comment much at all but this is a GREAT thread. I used a Kel-Lite for ten years... worn and scratched, dropped on concrete, run over and yet it worked forever (but after 40 years I cannot find it, sigh). Great lights. Most departments started to restrict their use due "improper use", riiiggghhhttt. Thanks for the memories!!


----------



## bykfixer

Did you see any B-Lites or other brands like LA Screw back then bonedoc?





A 2D mid-size head Bianchi B-Lite circa 1977.
It came from an estate sale of a California cop.
Notice the Maglite look? Don Keller worked with Tony Maglica in early Maglite days. This size head was adopted by Maglite. 





Hybrid plastic reflector tosses light well with no artifacts. If I recall correct this is the same reflector used by LA Screw. 
This one has a Maglite xenon PR base bulb. Note the stainless looking bezel ring lens fastener inside the 52mm head. An ultra-clear hard coat lens from flashlight lens dot com replaced the original one. 





The slider signals from off with a positive detent for on.
Side rails prevent unintended turn on.





"Daddy, daddy, you're my hero" sticker left intact.

I may have shown this one in this thread already.
John Bianchi made leather products for police like holsters and extra parts carriers. One day he and Don put their heads together and built some flashlights. Weighty hunks of anodized alluminum built to last.


----------



## ABTOMAT

Some good pictures in this thread. I remember when I was the only person on CPF collecting these things. Been a little distracted for a while but I'll get back to taking pics one of these days. And next time I have a chance to take my High Standard 10B to the range I'll get some vids for y'all.


----------



## knucklegary

Didn't the earlier 10b versions have mechanical issues?
Back in the day I could have bought one cheap, "over the counter" in Salt Lake City. In '68 all ya had to be was a cash carrying customer, and 18 yrs old.. Bringing it back over state line to CA was another story (;


----------



## ABTOMAT

I really don't know much about the service record of the 10B. It used a popular off the shelf High Standard action in that wacky plastic chassis. They were tuned for full power buck. I can see how they could have some issues, but the problems Ian had with the one in his Forgottenweapons review was due to a flukey issue with a pin coming out inside the receiver.

Ever you ever want to see some good 10B action check out "Shaft's Big Score."


----------



## ABTOMAT

LiftdT4R said:


> Hey Bill, I don't. I never could find a good use for it. So I put it in my Surefire parts box. Do you know of any battery setups it would work with. It's pretty short so I'm guessing maybe 2 x 18500?



I billion years ago I made a short spacer that would let you use 3x123 in a 6R with the 9P's bulb. Not sure what the modern equivalent of that setup would be.


----------



## dakeller1218

lumen aeternum said:


> Without a copyright, and a defunct publisher, copy away. If anyone claims ownership they can file a takedown notice if they mind.


As the author of this book I have no problem with you scanning and sharing the contents of my book Kel-Lite Manual of Defensive Tactics.

Don Keller


----------



## ABTOMAT

dakeller1218 said:


> As the author of this book I have no problem with you scanning and sharing the contents of my book Kel-Lite Manual of Defensive Tactics.
> 
> Don Keller



Very cool, welcome to CPF, Don. We've spoken by email but it was back when I started collecting police flashlights almost two decades ago. At this point I have probably close to 150 items you've had a hand in designing or selling, including a copy of your book. Not every day one man virtually creates an entire industry.


----------



## bykfixer

dakeller1218 said:


> As the author of this book I have no problem with you scanning and sharing the contents of my book Kel-Lite Manual of Defensive Tactics.
> 
> Don Keller


wow, Wow, WOW!!!
This is akin to setting up on a stage singing a Willie Nelson song then finding out Willie Nelson is in the audience.……


----------



## konifans

Wow! Let's keep posting Kel-Lite 
This is a BTL-22 in almost mint condition. Made in 1972...









































Left to right: BTL-22, Mag 6c, 7C, 6D, Lel-Lite 7D, 7D, 7D


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## bykfixer

Very nice KF. 


When the call of duty doesn't require a Louiville Slugger approach, the small head 2D is a mighty fine option. 




2nd gen type with bulb holder tailcap.


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## sween1911

bykfixer said:


> Very nice KF.
> 
> 
> When the call of duty doesn't require a Louiville Slugger approach, the small head 2D is a mighty fine option.
> View attachment 27304









bykfixer said:


> 2nd gen type with bulb holder tailcap.


That is a GREAT Looking light! I was browsing old Kel-Lite ads the other day and saw one like this. Pretty sweet.


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## sween1911

ABTOMAT said:


> I billion years ago I made a short spacer that would let you use 3x123 in a 6R with the 9P's bulb. Not sure what the modern equivalent of that setup would be.
> 
> View attachment 26043


Brother, when I first got the KL1 converstion kit with the extension to make a rechargeable G2 with the ole' B65 battery, I did the same thing. The P90 in the plastic G2. Epic. LOL, yes I also had a bunch of pieces of cutoff metal rod with tape around them.


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## ABTOMAT

Anyone know how Sigmalite serial numbers were organized? I get the sense that each size/style of light had its own range but I can't be sure. Are the serial numbers purely sequential or do they have a code in them? Also, how early did the logo and patent status change, and how late were the rubber sleeve models introduced? What was behind some of their later lights being branded "LITESTIK"?

I have a crazy one you guys'll enjoy seeing. Looks like it was used as a test object for their engraving machines so it has markings randomly printed all over the barrel.


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## bykfixer

Sigmalite was a such a short lived project it's hard to know exactly when or what occured. If I recall correct it lasted about 2 years with the change occuring mid-way. 
The answers you seek are in Don Kellers noggin.


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## knucklegary

Don is due to chime in soon. Hope he's doing well 🇺🇲


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## konifans

The first generation Maglite AA
I have been looking for these for many years.


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## hsa

Wow, they look brand new. Nice find.


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## knucklegary

Did you find a case of NOS.. How about sharing?


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## konifans

They are NOS 😀


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## bykfixer

Those were game changers.

(Another) Awesome score konifans!!!


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## bykfixer

Speaking of game changers.....




The one that started an entire industry, the D size Kel-Lite. An early 2D big head number from Don Keller himself. 





Blank tailcap





Only Kel-Lite is stamped on the barrel, no serial number.


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## knucklegary

Not too much branding on his early model D, nice!


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## aznsx

bykfixer said:


> Speaking of game changers.....


 Those puppydog eyes in that first photo make it a winner too!


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## knucklegary

That's Tralfaz saying to his dad 'can I play with dat one'


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## bykfixer

Good guess KG, but actually he was giving me the sad eye because I'd interupted his termite meal. 




A couple of minutes prior to me taking the flashlight outside for a photo I saw him through the window munching away on a guardrail to the doggy ramp we built back when another dog had gotten a bionic tendon in his knee. 

I put a glass lens from flashlighlens and a Maglite PR base xenon bulb in the light so it appears brighter than it was when fully stock. The beam is much whiter with xenon than from a GE argon bulb that originally came with the light.


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## konifans

This is Don Keller


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## bykfixer

I did not know Tony made B-Lites...wow!!

Very enjoyable watch. Thanks Konifans!!!


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## aznsx

konifans said:


> This is Don Keller



ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING!!

THANK YOU!!


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## knucklegary

An inventor's symposium.. By listening to Q&A at the end, not very many folks there, if anybody, were collectors of old cop lights. 
Here on CPF, Don's knowledge and information is priceless!


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## ABTOMAT

bykfixer said:


> Ah, the elusive Sea Probe still eludes... could be more photos of the Lochness Monster than a Sea Probe.








Happy holidays, guys.


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## rwolfenstein

Back in the day when I first got into my line of work, the common cop light was either a streamlight SL20X or a Maglite Magcharger. All of the cars had charging docks for them. The common tactical lights were surefire. Its rather amazing how the old surefires that I used to see commonly are now things of the past. I remember seeing a surefire Z2 with its lens cover for the tac teams. They got all the neat things like dedicated fore-end lights. If you had a lighted weapon, it was either an insight UTL or a surefire P series weapon light. My my the times have changed.


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## jz6342

rwolfenstein said:


> Back in the day when I first got into my line of work, the common cop light was either a streamlight SL20X or a Maglite Magcharger. All of the cars had charging docks for them. The common tactical lights were surefire. Its rather amazing how the old surefires that I used to see commonly are now things of the past. I remember seeing a surefire Z2 with its lens cover for the tac teams. They got all the neat things like dedicated fore-end lights. If you had a lighted weapon, it was either an insight UTL or a surefire P series weapon light. My my the times have changed.


I remember getting a MagCharger as a prize at the security company I worked for in the mid 80's - it was THE STUFF! I had it for many years until I passed it onto my oldest son and we mounted it in his truck (with a new bulb and battery pack). He's still using it


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## bykfixer

This thread was started to fill in some gaps regarding the history of a few flashlight companies that changed the game so it's nice to hear from the players.


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