# KL4 + MC-E = stooopid bright!



## AaronM (Oct 17, 2008)

I just got three MC-Es in the mail from Endeavour and already put one to good use.
This wasn't that hard to do actually, anyway on to the pics & beamshots.







Oh yeah! First one on the block.














Stock on left, unspeakable awsomeness on right. 




I don't know what else to say, so please ask questions.:twothumbs


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## AvroArrow (Oct 17, 2008)

Really cool mod. I've been thinking of doing something similar. If only Endeavor's int'l shipping didn't cost as much as the MC-E itself, I'd have ordered a couple.

Questions? Of course. How's the beam compared to a stock KL4? Your beamshot makes it look like there's more hotspot compared to flood vs the stock KL4 beam. Is it the same wall of light pattern with mostly flood, except brighter? Did you have to mod the reflector? Are you running it in 2S2P config and using the stock KL4 circuit? I haven't opened up a KL4 before so I don't know what the shape of the heatsink is, but did you have to mod the heatsink to fit the MC-E? I've modded a KL1 before and no way could you fit that square base MC-E into the opening in the heatsink but like I said, I don't know what a KL4 heatsink looks like.


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## AaronM (Oct 17, 2008)

1. I think the beam is similar enough to please wall-of-light fans (I too love the stock beam), but it does have artifacts. Did you notice the beamshot isn't perfectly round? If you saw me shine a wall with it, you might say the hot spot looked...blotchy...but not enough to bug a guy under normal use.

2. Carving on the reflector:
In order to get the rather blocky LED body to fit snugly against the reflector opening, I had to Dremel some obstructions...I'll let the pic do the talking.






3. The wiring and circiut is as you say.

4. Some KL4 heatsinks are flat (like mine)
others have a slight depression. Either way you'll need a copper spacer to push it far enough into the reflector. If I had to guess, the copper I used was about .043" thick.


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## Illum (Oct 17, 2008)

how is the heat output compared to the stock KL4?

I might want one of these if your gonna mod a couple


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## Greg G (Oct 17, 2008)

I don't see a donut-hole, so the stock reflector must work ok with that emitter. 

I've been thinking about putting an MC-E in one of my Surefire L5's but they both already have Seoul P4's and I like them so much I hate to tear into them.

Thanks for the beamshot!


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## AaronM (Oct 18, 2008)

Illum the nation:
With driver PCB being stock, I expected everything other than output to stay the same. Strangely though, it doesn't get THAT hot, more like a Milky mod: warm but not irritating.

You want one? Such exellent taste!
I wish I could help, I'm waiting on bigger, better emitters from cutter...AND I'm due to leave the civilized world soon, I have no idea when. =o[

Greg G:
This is entirely speculation, but I'm guessing whatever's driving a P4 wont have the bawls to drive an MC-E the same way a Surefire Lux-V driver will.
You might want get with Milkyspit or someone else who really knows thier curcuits to find the truth of the matter.
AND to find the right driver (if you need one)...Milky probably has a pile of discarded Lux-V drivers.


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## Endeavour (Oct 18, 2008)

Nice work, Aaron. :thumbsup:


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## AaronM (Oct 18, 2008)

Stock VS modded beamshot added


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## divine (Oct 18, 2008)

What is the distance on those beamshots?

Very nice modding, Aaron.


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## Superdave (Oct 18, 2008)

Cool!

How is the tint? looks yellowish in the pics. 

I was checking these out last night, might pick up one to stick in my U2.


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## AaronM (Oct 18, 2008)

Beamshot distance was about five feet.

The tint is very white, the stock KL4 is purple-ish and my cameras' auto white balance messed everything up.

If you want to do this mod or a U2 good and proper, you gotta bore out the reflector opening a little. Kinda like this light:






I don't think the U2 needs such a radical emitter placement change, but you WILL need to carve on the reflector if you want a really nice beam pattern.


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 19, 2008)

What is the amp draw from the battery(s) at the highest level (6)?

Bill


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## AaronM (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm guessing it's drawing the same current as a stock Lux-V U2, but what the numbers are, I have no idea.
How would I test for it?


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 19, 2008)

AaronM said:


> I'm guessing it's drawing the same current as a stock Lux-V U2, but what the numbers are, I have no idea.
> How would I test for it?



Rotate the switch to the highest level, far right. Remove tailcap keeping the batteries in the body, and set the light on a table, head down. Using a DMM, place the DMM red probe plug in the 10 or 20 DC amp current fitting, and turn the DMM dial to the the 10 or 20 DC amp currant position. After doing that place the black probe tip on the back of the exposed battery and the red probe tip on the top of the exposed threaded section of the body. The light will come on at the level you set it, high. See the reading on the DMM.

Bill


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## FredM (Oct 19, 2008)

can someone post a picture of the stock KL4 board with the LuxV still installed?

I just want to see how it looks.

What did you use to attack the Cree to the heatsink?


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## AaronM (Oct 19, 2008)

Bullzeyebill:
I got just a shade over an amp (1.03A) for the U2, and 0.87A for the KL4.

FredM:
The pic in post #3 says almost everything.
A Lux-V emitter in overall shape, looks like Seoul P4 (P4s with a little copper disc spacer are physically 'drop in' replacements for Luxeons, not necessarily electricaly though)
The spacer and emitter are stuck to the heatsink with Arctic Silver epoxy.
I'll try to get a pic of the stocker anyway.


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## FredM (Oct 19, 2008)

Wow thats pretty low for current draw. Looks like the runtime will be either the same or even better.

Did you solder those by hand? Any advice? They seem so small I am thinking of using a hotplate.


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## AaronM (Oct 19, 2008)

I soldered everything by hand, with the help of a device I think is called a 'helping hand'.
Think of it as a weighted base with a pair articulated alligator clips on it, some even come with a movable magnifying glass.


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 20, 2008)

AaronM said:


> I soldered everything by hand, with the help of a device I think is called a 'helping hand'.
> Think of it as a weighted base with a pair articulated alligator clips on it, some even come with a movable magnifying glass.



I have two of those unopened. I need to get my iron out.

Bill


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 20, 2008)

FredM said:


> Bill
> 
> Did you solder those by hand? Any advice? They seem so small I am thinking of using a hotplate.



You used two CR123's? That is actually sort of neat. Better output at about same wattage. This would work with one 18650. How is the output at the lower levels?

Bill


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## AaronM (Oct 20, 2008)

On my Milky U2x2, all the levels are exactly four times brighter. This one however, is different: The high level of course, is lots brighter, but the low is about the same as the stock low.
The good news is the levels are pretty evenly spaced and it still has a LOW low.

The current draw with a 18650 in the U2 is 1.45A.

Edit:
Even though I am now out of MC-Es, I carved on another KL4 in preparation for more emitters.
In this pic you see the stock emitter & heatsink and the carving I did to the back face of the reflector so I can push the emitter further forward to get a little tighter focus.







As a result of the milling, the reflector hole is a bit bigger.


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## roguesw (Oct 21, 2008)

Hi AaronM, this is a nice build and i am thinking of doing the same with my KL4.
Could you please tell me how do you wire 2S2P configuration for the MC-E?
Any help would be appreciated. 
Cheers mate
best regards
Des


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## thegeek (Oct 23, 2008)

You inspired me to crack open my KL4 head. That turned out to be MUCH easier than opening a KL1. Now that it's all put together the beam looks almost exactly like it did with the LuxV, no artifacts or donut at all. I used part of a penny for the spacer to get the height right. Ghetto, and probably not as good as a copper spacer, but it works pretty well.


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 23, 2008)

thegeek said:


> You inspired me to crack open my KL4 head. That turned out to be MUCH easier than opening a KL1. Now that it's all put together the beam looks almost exactly like it did with the LuxV, no artifacts or donut at all. I used part of a penny for the spacer to get the height right. Ghetto, and probably not as good as a copper spacer, but it works pretty well.



Use a dime next time, it is about 90% copper.

Bill

Actually 91.67% copper.

Bill


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## lumafist (Oct 23, 2008)

Subscribing.....


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## thegeek (Oct 23, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Use a dime next time, it is about 90% copper.
> 
> Bill
> 
> ...



The dime was a touch thinner than I wanted. Good to know though.


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## alphazeta (Oct 23, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Use a dime next time, it is about 90% copper.
> 
> Bill
> 
> ...



But a pre-1982 penny is 95% copper 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_(United_States_coin)
-AZ


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 24, 2008)

alphazeta said:


> But a pre-1982 penny is 95% copper
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_(United_States_coin)
> -AZ



Yes, and my dime will fit in an 18650 tube and make my shorter unprotected LG's work. Look for pre-82 cents, and easily find current dimes. Of course, some dimes are worth more than a dime, but not current ones, unless collectors find some reason to make them more valuable.

Bill


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## alphazeta (Oct 24, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Yes, and my dime will fit in an 18650 tube and make my shorter unprotected LG's work. Look for pre-82 cents, and easily find current dimes. Of course, some dimes are worth more than a dime, but not current ones, unless collectors find some reason to make them more valuable.
> 
> Bill



Fair enough, the dimes work for what you need them for 

Depends on your usage for the "spacers" I guess. A lot of times I use the pennies to heatsink & mount hot driver components. I give them a quick pound with a hammer on my "anvil" (that would be a 25lb barbell plate:naughty to flatten them out. I can easily bend them with two pliers to provide me a curved mount for a flashlight body...
-az


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## thegeek (Oct 28, 2008)

If anyone was curious, I see a 1.8A draw from one IMR16340 cell at 4V with the modded head. I don't have another KL4 at the moment to compare the heat to, but it seems to get pretty warm, borderline hot if it's just sitting there. Similar to what I remember with the LuxV.


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 28, 2008)

thegeek said:


> If anyone was curious, I see a 1.8A draw from one IMR16340 cell at 4V with the modded head. I don't have another KL4 at the moment to compare the heat to, but it seems to get pretty warm, borderline hot if it's just sitting there. Similar to what I remember with the LuxV.



I should be about as hot as a stock KL4. Your mA draw would be lower at 4.2 volts, but still seems too high at 1.8 amps. I just measured my KL4 with Powerizer unprotected RCR123 reading 4.12 and get 1.20A draw, and bounce with lightmeter shows full power to LED.

Bill


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## thegeek (Oct 28, 2008)

It seemed pretty high to me too, but it might have something to do with a different Vf of the led. I'm not sure how exactly the driver reacts to changes like that. 

Just checked again, two different IMR16340 cells:

4.05V gives 1.7A
3.85V gives 1.9A


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 28, 2008)

thegeek said:


> It seemed pretty high to me too, but it might have something to do with a different Vf of the led. I'm not sure how exactly the driver reacts to changes like that.
> 
> Just checked again, two different IMR16340 cells:
> 
> ...



Do you have some other cells/bodies to try out, such as 2 CR123's, or one 17670, or 17650? Also, is your DMM working ok?

Bill


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## thegeek (Oct 28, 2008)

The first post the values were taken from a Fluke 73, the second set of values are from a cheap no name meter. I have a 17500 body I can try out later, don't have it with me at the moment.


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## thegeek (Oct 29, 2008)

One 17500 at 3.95V gives 1.8A to the head.


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## PeterB (Oct 29, 2008)

thegeek said:


> One 17500 at 3.95V gives 1.8A to the head.


Could it be, that you have wired the 4 MCE dies in series? That would double the power vs. 2s2p.


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## thegeek (Oct 29, 2008)

PeterB said:


> Could it be, that you have wired the 4 MCE dies in series? That would double the power vs. 2s2p.



Not really, I have a jumper wire, so if there were some sort of unwanted connection, I don't think all of the dice would be lighting up evenly. The current I am seeing is about .4A more than what it was with the luxV, so we aren't dealing with any HUGE difference. My intent was not to troubleshoot, I am fairly confident that the LED is wired correctly and installed correctly. I just thought I would relay the what others could expect as far as current draw, i.e. runtime.


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## FredM (Oct 29, 2008)

Could you try with two fresh primaries?

I would really like to see the results as I am not really interested in Li-Ions for a EDC. (but would do it if needed)


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## thegeek (Oct 29, 2008)

FredM said:


> Could you try with two fresh primaries?
> 
> I would really like to see the results as I am not really interested in Li-Ions for a EDC. (but would do it if needed)



Unfortunately I don't have any 2 cell e-series bodies. I think the OP posted his readings with 2 primaries on the first page though.


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## c0t0d0s0 (Nov 3, 2008)

I attempted this mod with my KL4 head, and so far I can't obtain a decent focus with an MC-E. This propably has something to do with the fact that my the insides of my head look somewhat different from what AaronM had posted, it is clearly machined differently (there are no separate posts where the screws go in, the back of the reflector part where the heatsink contacts it is a flat one piece part, with greater area contacting the pill). Apparently there were different versions of this head. The heatsink itself has a depression for the emitter.

Anyway, I broke out the Dremel and made some room for the MC-E and the connecting wires, but with the new emitter pushed all the way to the back of the reflector (.075" spacer was required), the focus basically sucks, with rings and dark cross in the hotspot. 

I definitely need to carve the back of the reflector to push the emitter further forward, but there is no way I can do it with the Dremel cleanly... Man, I need a drill press


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## thegeek (Nov 3, 2008)

I have what sounds like the same version of KL4 you have. I didn't do anything to the reflector to get a nice focus. It might be that you have the emitter further forward than is optimal? I took a penny, removed the ridges with a dremel, and used that as my spacer. I'm pretty sure that puts it at under .075". Shortening your spacer might be worth trying rather than going to work on the reflector.


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## c0t0d0s0 (Nov 4, 2008)

No, that's not it. I get the best focus with the emitter all the way forward. I guess there are some variations of reflector geometry in these heads? By the way, with the original LuxV it was fully donutless. Pretty good tint, and bright for a LuxV, too - the best KL4 I've ever seen. I almost cried taking it apart for this mod 

Anyway, I just finished putting the head together. I had to shave the reflector just a little more allowing me to move the emitter forward just a a tiny bit but now I get a pretty decent hotspot. It's not ideal, but it's perfectly usable. I'll leave it alone for now. Might add a diffuser film to the lens in the future...

Now, the sucker is BRIGHT!!!! I did a quick ceiling bounce test with a lightmeter and it looks like it puts out 3 times more light than it used to with the stock LuxV. I estimate the output as 360-380 lumens (it was originally around 120). Oh, and that's from a single RCR123.

:devil:


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 4, 2008)

c0t0d0s0 said:


> No, that's not it. I get the best focus with the emitter all the way forward. I guess there are some variations of reflector geometry in these heads? By the way, with the original LuxV it was fully donutless. Pretty good tint, and bright for a LuxV, too - the best KL4 I've ever seen. I almost cried taking it apart for this mod
> 
> Anyway, I just finished putting the head together. I had to shave the reflector just a little more allowing me to move the emitter forward just a a tiny bit but now I get a pretty decent hotspot. It's not ideal, but it's perfectly usable. I'll leave it alone for now. Might add a diffuser film to the lens in the future...
> 
> ...



Check your current at the tailcap, would be good if it was 1.25- 1.50A's, higher and it gets iffy with RCR123. Powerizers can handle the current but need to monitor for low voltage, though emitter would start dimming before voltage drops too low, then quick change of cell would be good. New RMR123's from AW would be nice with this setup.

Bill


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## c0t0d0s0 (Nov 4, 2008)

Yep I'm aware of that. The light is drawing 1.45A from a freshly charged protected AW RCR123 cell... basically, the same as before the mod. 

IMR16340 does sound like a winner for this kind of current, I definitely need to pick up a couple of these.


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## MarkIAlbert (Nov 7, 2008)

I'm trying to get a sense of the P7 vs. the MC-E


The P7 is great, but it's a power hog. If the Cree can do what the P7 does at 1/2 the power ([email protected]), That's a huge plus. My P7 is running on 3 D-cell nickel metal hydride batteries, yet does not outthrow or outflood my Amondotech N30 (Same weight, same run time, similarly large)

The Cree looks smaller than the P7. Does that equate to better throw?

I can't wait to see what kind of pills Dereelight and others will be putting out. It'd be nice to resurrect my Surefire L4 with an MC-E (Coming your way next month, Scott C.)

If for the same wattage you can get more spill and more throw, sounds like a good evolutionary step.


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## tebore (Nov 10, 2008)

Since the U2 is a boost only circuit I wonder would it be possible to hook the MC-E in series only. That way it would ensure all the dies are getting the same power. It would probably help fix the splotchy beams that you're getting. My experience with the P7 has told me uneven beams is due to the fact that some of the dies are always slightly brighter/dimmer than the other. Out of 5 P7s I had 1 that had 99% evenly lit dies.


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## c0t0d0s0 (Nov 11, 2008)

In my case, all the dies are very well matched and are equally bright in 2s2p connection. The problem is purely optical.


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## GarageBoy (Nov 12, 2008)

Is there a way to cut the reflector with nicer results?


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## Jumi (Nov 13, 2008)

I modded mine today with MC-E 5A, it's now pure flood. It would be perfect beam for headlamp.
I only had to make two small holes for jumper wire and file a little corners of the led. Copper under led is 1.3mm thick.





Shiny stuff is silver paste, not bare aluminium.

Led is pressed against reflector, so there is no way it could be any further without destroing reflector.

Mine draw same current as before, 1.1A from primaries and 1.7A from AW 17670

Juha


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## thegeek (Nov 13, 2008)

Clever way to deal with the jumper wire! Very nicely done.


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## mudman cj (Nov 16, 2008)

AaronM said:


> Beamshot distance was about five feet.
> 
> The tint is very white, the stock KL4 is purple-ish and my cameras' auto white balance messed everything up.
> 
> ...



Hi Aaron,

What sort of Dremel bit or tool did you use to 'carve' the reflector like that?


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## AaronM (Nov 16, 2008)

The bit I used is a 1/8" carbide burr with a flame shaped tip.


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## mudman cj (Nov 16, 2008)

Thanks, that confirms my planned approach to modding a U2 reflector. Now I just need to work up the bravery to mod an already great light and ruin the best warranty going.


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## AaronM (Dec 15, 2008)

Minor update:
I found the ideal spacer height for the KL4/MC-E combo: 1.8mm! You'll have to mill the emitter pocket at the back of the reflector 0.35mm to make it work.

The perfect spacer for the U2 looks to be about 2.5mm high and the deepest part of the emitter pocket needs needs to go deeper by about 0.25mm.

On both lights, some reflectors are smoother than others: heavy orange peel = little or no artifacts, very acceptable beam.
Smooth-ish reflector = pretty heavy artifacts. Lets face it, if you want a 100% perfect beam with a smoothie, you need diffuser film... even with perfect focus.

Also, I managed to make a few heatsinks much like the one seen in this thread:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/214476

I wonder what would be a good asking price for a heatsink like that?


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