# The value of a "tactical" light for civilian concealed-carry



## Overclocker (May 13, 2012)

Lately i've been trying to justify the purchase of a powerful forward clicky like a klarus XT. i EDC a pistol btw...

a police officer would certainly have a lot of use for such a light but as a civilian, could you give me some scenarios where such a light would give me tactical advantage?


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## madecov (May 13, 2012)

Late evening at a restaraunt parking lot or after a movie. The local mall etc. Bad guy walks up and you have a firearm and 400+ lumens of output in his eyes. He can't really see the gun but you can see everything from his head to his knees and insure he is unarmed.


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## fishndad (May 13, 2012)

i can see no reason to edc a klarus xt if you are a civi,or even an off duty officer
. Big hunky klunky thing in your pocket on a holster coming out of the movies.
however there is absolutly an agvantage of lighting up a (bad guy).
My jet pc10 and rrt01 will light you up quick.(very small,tucks into the pocket and you wont even notic its there).
If you just want to go around with your conceal carry poking through your shirt and tac light holster sticking out
for everyone to notice than you shouldnt be carrying anyway.Hope this helps.


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## baterija (May 13, 2012)

If you are going to draw that pistol because of a potential deadly force encounter you need to confirm two things. A reason to use deadly force and that the area behind your target is clear. Specific scenarios aside, can you do both of those things in the dark?


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## Overclocker (May 13, 2012)

madecov said:


> Late evening at a restaraunt parking lot or after a movie. The local mall etc. Bad guy walks up and you have a firearm and 400+ lumens of output in his eyes. He can't really see the gun but you can see everything from his head to his knees and insure he is unarmed.




yeah but in the real world the bad guy won't give you the chance to evaluate him first with your flashlight. if you try to do that then you would only leave one hand free to draw your gun with. not great if you need to lift up your shirt to draw from IWB like most civilians do

so you may have bought a couple of seconds by dazzling him with your strobe but you also tied up one hand with the flashlight which drastically slows down your gun draw and cripples your shooting ability since you're gonna be shooting with one hand only


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## fishndad (May 13, 2012)

baterija said:


> If you are going to draw that pistol because of a potential deadly force encounter you need to confirm two things. A reason to use deadly force and that the area behind your target is clear. Specific scenarios aside, can you do both of those things in the dark?




no probably not and carrying isnt always a scenario of defending oneself,there have been hundreds of situations where had
someone been carrying they might have saved other lives.


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## Overclocker (May 13, 2012)

fishndad said:


> i can see no reason to edc a klarus xt if you are a civi,or even an off duty officer
> . Big hunky klunky thing in your pocket on a holster coming out of the movies.
> however there is absolutly an agvantage of lighting up a (bad guy).
> My jet pc10 and rrt01 will light you up quick.(very small,tucks into the pocket and you wont even notic its there).
> ...




the klarus xt2c is pretty small, and always turns on at MAX which seems to be the ideal setup for this kind of thing. an rrt of sunway V won't do a very good job of lighting up a BG if you accidentally left the ring on moon mode...


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## Overclocker (May 13, 2012)

baterija said:


> If you are going to draw that pistol because of a potential deadly force encounter you need to confirm two things. A reason to use deadly force and that the area behind your target is clear. Specific scenarios aside, can you do both of those things in the dark?



if ambient light is so low that you can't even make that assessment then as a flashaholic you should already have a flashlight turned on LOL

but even a typical "dark alley" has enough ambient light to make it possible for you to assess the situation


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## fishndad (May 13, 2012)

ok my bad i was thinking along the lines of the 18650 or 2x123 models,
your gonna have no problems with form and comfort carrying this model.
sorry for assuming.but you said tactical and i guess (tactical) hasnt clearly been outlined.


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## madecov (May 13, 2012)

Even something along the lines of the EagleTac P20C2 MKII XML can be a decent high powered EDC. No reasont to carry a larger light. The Quark line has very good choices also.


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## Samy (May 13, 2012)

Deleted...


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## baterija (May 13, 2012)

Overclocker said:


> if ambient light is so low that you can't even make that assessment then as a flashaholic you should already have a flashlight turned on LOL
> 
> but even a typical "dark alley" has enough ambient light to make it possible for you to assess the situation



Well I rarely use a light unless I really need it. I enjoy the dark and dark adapted vision. I also have a bit of the military bright white light is bad impulse from early in my career. If you are using a light in that situation anyway ...or carrying anyway  ... it's useful to have the UI be one that fits with the tactical role if you are carrying concealed.

As to the typical dark alley being good enough, well the costs are high if you get it wrong. A buddy in the National Guard who's civilian job was law enforcement once almost shot an unarmed teen in one of those dark alleys. He cleared holster 100% sure that he was using deadly force. If he'd been a little bit faster he would have shot. If the teen had reacted a little slower he would have shot. The teen dropping the "gun" in the brief time it took stopped him with his finger on the trigger and sights aligning. There was no gun and the teen was just an innocent bystander not the suspect he went into the alley looking for. Even without using force it was a traumatic emotional event because my buddy knew that his intent was to kill and that he was wrong.

There's significant legal, financial and emotional risks to choosing to use legal force and being wrong. There's physical risk to not using force when you should have because you haven't seen enough to legally use deadly force. We're not really talking about whether you EDC a light, it is CPF after all =)). If you are carrying a weapon it's simply an issue of carrying one that has a UI compatible with the weapon.


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## Wisdom (May 13, 2012)

I avoided a fight in a movie theater with a flashlight.. was EDC'ing a Nitecore EX10 at the time. The guy in front kept using his cellphone during the movie and I politely (seriously.. I was polite) asked the individual if he would stop. He stood up, turned around, and started threatening me so I whipped out the EX10 and blasted it in his face on full power. I don't think he knew what to do, so I think he tried to act tough by staring the light down. Seconds later, he turned around, sat, and had his hands over his eyes for the next few minutes.. shortly thereafter, his friend escorted him out of the theater.. I think he went to the bathroom to either rinse his eyes or throw up.

They came back minutes later, but it was obvious he wasn't watching the movie and he had his head in his hands at least half the time. He and his friends waited for me outside the theater after the movie. I acknowledged him with a nod while passing by and made my way into the crowd with my friends.. they didn't say anything or follow and that was the end of it.

Although in hindsight, what I did was probably both stupid and reckless, the point is that the light from a flashlight can be an effective deterrent. I'm sure there are a thousand opinions on this, but I would suggest you carry a flashlight with the mentality that it is a useful tool and not a combat tool. Although it can be used in many different ways, equally effectively, I don't allow whatever light I'm carrying to give me any unrealistic sense of security.. although it's probably the first thing I'd reach for if things got hairy. Seeing as you EDC a pistol, you probably already have a mature understanding of what I'm getting at.
-\Visdom


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## flashlight nut (May 13, 2012)

There have been threads in the past discussing prefered UI's for law enforcement. I am not going to rehash those discussions because they usually end with people on different sides of the fence agreeing to disagree with each other other. I will say that carrying a gun requires you to be constantly alert and scanning your surroundings so that the bad guy does not get the jump on you. This is important wether you are armed or not but especially if you are armed. Having a flashlight to scan your surroundings in the dark and to illuminate any potential threat approaching you is important and can give you ample time to draw your firearm if justified to do so. If not you still must learn to draw while actively being attacked in case the bad guy does get the jump on you. Most of the officers on my job have night sights on their firearms and are told to use the glowing dots to line up their sights in low light situations. My comment to them is, if it is dark enough for you to see the glowing dots on the sights you will probably not be able to identify your target other than seeing a dark silhouette. You must be able to ID your threat. Tactics and skills are not learned by reading or by osmosis. They are learned from proper instruction from qualified individuals and constantly honed by physically practicing them. 
After giving the long answer first (sorry), the short answer is firearms and flashlights definately go together wether you are a LEO or civilian.


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## Divine_Madcat (May 13, 2012)

Perhaps I am weird, but i EDC my Fenix Tk15... Perhaps i love by that old adage -"If its worth doing, its worth overdoing". I already carry a phone on my belt; adding a light isn't a huge issue. When i do need the light, i dont know how long i will need it, or how bright i will need it.. i think a full sized light gives me great versatility.


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## 0dBm (May 13, 2012)

*"...but you also tied up one hand with the flashlight which drastically slows down your gun draw and cripples your shooting ability since you're gonna be shooting with one hand only"*
You have apparently thought this out. Don't carry one if you are not comfortable with one.

You have apparently done the research to justify the need to carry a firearm. You need to do more research to determine if you need a powerful flashlight. Speak _first_ with someone with whom you have identified as a basis of comparison for this quagmire: a police officer. Thereafter, speak with a civilian whom has carried a firearm for sustained periods to determine the rationale for that "tactical" light.

You will discover the same same reasons.


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## Overclocker (May 14, 2012)

> You are almost never "surprised" that it is dark. If you go out after sundown guess what...it will likely be somewhat dark. So if you go into a movie theater at 8PM and it was dark when you go there and you leave at 10 PM we can assume it will still be what? Dark. So go ahead and get teh light in hand. No reason not to palm your light as you go to your car.
> 
> Most of the time (unless we are talking about clearing a building) a flashlight is a luxury not a necessity. It is almost never pitch black outside. There are very few instances where there is not enough ambient light to still read body language and intent. And enough ambient light to shoot by. Especially when the target is approaching us trying to rob us. They don't rob you from across the parking lot. They get CLOSE to you. They have to in order to take anything from you.....so the NEED for a flashlight for a civilian to shoot (other than indoors at night with the lights off) is GREATLY overstated.
> 
> ...




found that post at: http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...ining/124371-civilian-ccw-flashlight-use.html

made perfect sense


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## 0dBm (May 14, 2012)

*"But NEEDING one to be able to shoot in an urban or suburban environment (with lots of ambient light like street lights and business lights) is just not likely.*"
Randy's background is urban tactics. Speak with someone in a rural environment and you will find a different opinion. Continue with your research.


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## flashlight nut (May 14, 2012)

Overclocker, the article has some good points and not so good points. It is always better to identify a dangerous situation and avoid it than realizing it too late. That is what scanning your environment is all about. 
Most bad guys will try to get close without alarming you or position you to their advantage before attacking. It is not necessarily obvious that someone is approaching to rob you. Even urban environments have dark areas or cast dark shadows that can hide a threat. As OdBm stated, keep researching. You will find many articles from different experts that contradict each other. You will have to make your own determination.


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## eh4 (May 14, 2012)

There is no one scenario. Good tools are good to have handy. Ergonomics, UI, easy carry and familiarity are key. Too small is problematic, too big is also. Just don't ever be hampered by gear when it's time to move. -I've done that, it's even worse than being a fashion victim, if you survive to relish your chagrin.


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## fishndad (May 14, 2012)

i edc a flashlight for work and becouse i like having it on me. i carry a weapon to to protect my family.
in an emergency life on the line situation i pray for clarity. i pray i do not reach for my flashlight.


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## dc38 (May 14, 2012)

As mentioned above, the purpose of an edc is to have a flashlight literally IN HAND, so by the time it needs to be used, it is not tucked in your pocket somewhere. Whenever I go for walks or watch a movie in a theater or stay out late, my flashlight is always in my palm, clipped to an elastic i have wrapped around my hand. that way, the flashlight is always in ready position, just raise my hand and click the switch. If i need my fingers for something, I just unwrap my hand, and the light is still palmed and ready in my hand.  anyways, true story here - I was leaving a night class almost a year ago, and this shady dude stumbled up to me. I was ready to flash and run (or beatdown), which was a good to have been ready for. The guy was drunk, stumbled up to me and said "i need your money" and started reaching into his waistband for something. I whipped out my xeno and blasted him full in the face and he (AMAZINGLY) crumpled to the floor as if I had maced him...I felt kind of bad afterwards; as his arm was extended out on the floor, I saw a deadly wallet in the light -_-. So i apologized and told him not to ask for money that way, bought him a water bottle from a vending machine to sober up, and went on my merry way. :/ but yeah, My paranoia finally "paid off" lol.


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## zenbeam (May 14, 2012)

I never went for the concealed carry permit in Texas. I grew up target shooting (more like plinking at abandoned rock quarries and such) and became rather handy with handguns (revolvers more so). I've also trained a number of years in martial arts and have developed a reasonably strong personal sense of situational awareness. All that combined and still I prefer not to have a handgun with me when I'm "out and about". I still respect the element of surprise and would just rather not arm an assailant with my own weapon. But I don't disagree with competent individuals choosing to EDC a concealed handgun. I just wanted to state my personal view. Maybe one day, I will change and go for that permit.

But what I really wanted to say... lol.. was in fact about flashlights. Two things: 

If all I had was a powerfully bright flashlight that would easily blind a "bad guy" who was clearly intent upon causing me harm - I would love those extra few seconds to either disappear or shut that "bad guy" down - and then disappear.

And the other thing, the Zebralight SC600 is, IMHO, a _very_ tactical light actually because, if you left the memory set correctly, all it takes is one quick tap of the switch to BLAM an assailant in the face with 750 lumens! And it's such a little, easily concealed light. If that's not tactical, then my hat will taste great for breakfast! 

So far, I just carry lights to have light if needed. Not so much with self defense in mind - but that isn't ruled out either. 

Do I waffle? lol


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## EMC2 (May 14, 2012)

Does anybody know anything about the modified D maglite with extention enforcement is currently using? It is seriously bright and will definately mess you up.


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## HotWire (May 14, 2012)

Glad I had my M4. I was walking barefoot (Colorado River) in swimming trunks down to the boat and I thought I saw movement. Turned on the light! The biggest, fattest, longest, ugliest, scariest rattlesnake I ever saw right in the middle of the path! A quick twist and I was gone! Thanks, Surefire!


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## watson.01 (May 15, 2012)

I for one love the surefire E series lights. My EDC most of the time is a Surefire E1B Backup 110 lumens is pleanty in dim or dark conditions and not so bright that you blind yourself. If you feel like a little more power the E2D LED defender or Lx2 Lumamax is nice. Took my E2D out last night when i went for a walk 200 lumens sure lights up the night.


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## lightfooted (May 16, 2012)

Already lots of great responses and while I'm sure Zenbeam is more than capable of defending himself from attackers I would wonder how he would deal with someone else being attacked and obviously about to be murdered from 30-40 feet away? 

Personally even before all of these LED wonderlights came about I always carried a Surefire with me, often even while not carrying my sidearm...but *always* when I did. Sure you may not always need light to see your attacker these days but in this modern era of technological wonders...why would you *not* avail yourself of little conveniences like a Sunwayman V11R??? Would you consider "going out on the town" with family or friends and not take your cell phone? 

The two things I always told my students that they should carry even if they decided that going armed was not for them was a flashlight and a cell phone. The phone (even if it didn't have an account could still call for help) for obvious reasons and the light for all those things you never realize until afterward...even signaling the emergency services personnel arriving to help.


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## dc38 (May 16, 2012)

zenbeam said:


> I never went for the concealed carry permit in Texas. I grew up target shooting (more like plinking at abandoned rock quarries and such) and became rather handy with handguns (revolvers more so). I've also trained a number of years in martial arts and have developed a reasonably strong personal sense of situational awareness. All that combined and still I prefer not to have a handgun with me when I'm "out and about". I still respect the element of surprise and would just rather not arm an assailant with my own weapon. But I don't disagree with competent individuals choosing to EDC a concealed handgun. I just wanted to state my personal view. Maybe one day, I will change and go for that permit.
> 
> But what I really wanted to say... lol.. was in fact about flashlights. Two things:
> 
> ...



I suppose you possess a "slap cap"? lol


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## Fireclaw18 (May 16, 2012)

Overclocker said:


> the klarus xt2c is pretty small, and always turns on at MAX which seems to be the ideal setup for this kind of thing. an rrt of sunway V won't do a very good job of lighting up a BG if you accidentally left the ring on moon mode...



RRT-01 doesn't have a button, it just has the rotator ring as its only control. Since it's the only control, it's impossible to accidentally leave it in moon mode. It's also possible to flick the ring from off to max power in less than a second... about as fast it takes to click the button on other flashlights.


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## fishndad (May 16, 2012)

Fireclaw18 said:


> RRT-01 doesn't have a button, it just has the rotator ring as its only control. Since it's the only control, it's impossible to accidentally leave it in moon mode. It's also possible to flick the ring from off to max power in less than a second... about as fast it takes to click the button on other flashlights.



thats right also when you you remove it from your pocket your thumb and index fingers are right on the control ring.
i love mine and wish more brands would jump on the rotary bandwagon.


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## zenbeam (May 17, 2012)

dc38 said:


> I suppose you possess a "slap cap"? lol



Doesn't everyone? 





lightfooted said:


> Already lots of great responses and while I'm sure Zenbeam is more than capable of defending himself from attackers I would wonder how he would deal with someone else being attacked and obviously about to be murdered from 30-40 feet away?



I forgot to mention that I always carry knives. Maybe not balanced throwing knives, but that's not to say that the ones I carry can't be thrown. Heck, even having the blunt end of the handle bounce off a cheek bone might buy the victim a chance to run. And if that's all I could do in that scenario, then that's all I could do - followed by throwing my flashlight too. But I'm not going to go CCW just at the outside chance that I might save someone some day. If I ever decide to go CCW, circumstances will truly have to merit it. 

But since this is all hypothetical...

Now, if I was in my car... 30 to 40 feet away..... no problem! I can always get the dents removed. :naughty:


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## dc38 (May 17, 2012)

zenbeam said:


> Doesn't everyone?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you, my friend, are every bit as demented as i am lol. unfortunately, i do not possess a slap cap, but i do have a tightly bundled paracord bracelet with metal "flogs" tucked inside the weave...made by me of course lol. Im trying to get it to self deploy as a centrifugal weapon aa soon as i unbuckle it from my wrist and swing. it makes a nice dent in cardboard, easily cracks a windshield, and may cause some nice gauging in the inted target. however, it uses some fishing leaders as extensions, so...yeah. pair that up with a flashlight of extreme intensity and you've got a decent edc last ditch self defense system. after all, you wouldnt expect a 1.5 foot reach with a 7 inch bracelet, or a 400+ lumen veritable wall to slam into your face and eyes, respectively. Im planning on adding non lead fishing weights instead of the flogs, just for impact strength, and to turn the bracelet into a fashionable yet functional survivalpackage.


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## jhc37013 (May 18, 2012)

I carried on the job and as a civilian for over 10yrs and I use to only carry light's on a duty belt or on my regular plain clothes belt, over the years I started carrying a backup light in my pocket, a E1B was the first. I found that it was much easier, faster and less obvious pulling from my pocket so instead of pulling a main "tactical" light from my belt 95% of the time I used a pocket light for everything the other 5% was for a bigger light with more battery capacity when I needed light for an extended time.

I think advancements in flashlight tech had a lot to do with that as I could get almost as much light from the backup light as I did from the bigger light on my belt. The only things that I must have from EDC light to accompany a weapon is instant max mode and be 80lmns or more, more lumens the better but usability and reliability trump lumens when I'm thinking self defense.


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## novice (May 19, 2012)

First of all, I don't carry a concealed handgun, so I hope this is not considered off-topic.

I walk my dog almost every night (when I'm not sharing custody with my 'off-site' partner). There is a small park, with baseball diamonds, and right next to a bike path, about a block from my residence, that I take the dog to. My town is generally considered fairly quiet and safe, although there was a very nice young man (my partner's son was a friend) murdered on the bike path, very close to the park, with what the police say was either a machete, or a sword, as he walked home from work last year. Completely senseless; I don't think that there were any signs of a struggle, and there don't appear to be any street gangs here. I usually carry at least 2 bright lights every night I walk the dog. I turn one on when I cross the street, and let it swing in my hand for motorists to see, in case they are not paying close enough attention. When I step into the park, I immediately sweep the area. I don't want any surprises. My lights are bright enough to project a decent distance. I rotate them, and like to 'play' with them and compare beam qualities. As I am walking and passing the locked bathroom there, I am always checking the blinder spots at the farther ends of the building. After I pass the bathrooms, I am then in a larger area with a baseball diamond, that I walk through. Again, I sweep the area before proceeding. Last year, as I was entering the park through the low cyclone fence, I noticed a parked van. The street in front of the park is very narrow, and there is no parking allowed on either side of the street. That got my radar kicked up a notch. As I passed the end of the bathroom, and swept the larger area after it, I immediately lit up a prone figure a ways away who was sleeping there. The light woke him up, and he sat up. I apologized to him from a distance, and immediately turned around and left. He was probably 'sleeping it off', but I have no idea if he was dangerous or not. It was a dark night, and if I had not been checking out the area with a bright flashlight, I could have practically walked over him in the direction I was heading, which would have startled the heck out of both of us, and might have been dangerous if he thought I was trying to rob him as he slept. I think that bright flashlights are extremely useful for checking out your surroundings, and blind spots, at night, whether you are in open spaces, or walking down the street in the inner city. You can see things at a distance, which translates into more time for reacting to/anticipating possible problems.


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## fyrstormer (May 19, 2012)

There is no reason not to carry a flashlight, because no matter where you live it will be nighttime 12 hours a day on average. Also there is no reason to carry a light you can't make ready at a moment's notice, because there's no reason to carry ANY tool you can't make ready at a moment's notice. You don't need the excuse of "tactical advantage" to justify carrying useful tools that work well, even though half the cops who've seen my flashlight ask why I'm not content to use something inferior.


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## Overclocker (May 20, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> There is no reason not to carry a flashlight, because no matter where you live it will be nighttime 12 hours a day on average. Also there is no reason to carry a light you can't make ready at a moment's notice, because there's no reason to carry ANY tool you can't make ready at a moment's notice. You don't need the excuse of "tactical advantage" to justify carrying useful tools that work well, even though half the cops who've seen my flashlight ask why I'm not content to use something inferior.




well my question specifically is if there are advantages to using a "tactical" light such has the klarus xt-series (which always comes on at max, no need to fumble to switch modes or turn heads) as opposed non-tactically oriented lights (which are actually more convenient to use in everyday life)

but it seems that for a civilian a flashlight has to be already in your hand and turned on to be any useful in these situations. so it seems that a "tactical UI" isn't going to be very useful to me at all...


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## flashlight nut (May 20, 2012)

The bottom line is every situation unfolds differently. There are many instances where you will already have flashlight in hand, wether you are walking in a dimmly lit area or dark area at night and while doing so you hear something or see shadowy figures. With a flashlight clippied to a belt or inside a front pocket, the flashlight can be deployed quickly to light the area. The bad guy isn't always going to jump out of the shadows like a ninja. Many times there are indicators before an attack happens if you are being alert and not walking around with your head up your a**.
There are times when a flashlight won't help and there are time when it can help. If you don't have a flashlight you won't be able to deploy one if the circumstances would call for one. If you do find yourself in a situation where you need to deploy a flashight in conjuntion with a firearm, size and UI will matter. I find a 2 x cr123 size light with momentary only UI works best for me. It is small enough to manipulate my firearm with the flashlight in my hand but not too small where my hand might cover the front of the light. The UI is simple and as stress proof as a UI can be. There are many fine lights and UIs out there. This is what works best for me. The key is to practice with your equipment in realistic based scenarios. Go to the range and practice using your light with your firearm while shooting, reloading and clearing malfunctions. Take low light shooting courses that will run you through the paces. To say that a flashlight is of no use in these situations is just absurd and to say that a flashlight will give you the advantage in EVERY situation is also absurd.


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## Overclocker (May 20, 2012)

flashlight nut said:


> The bottom line is every situation unfolds differently. There are many instances where you will already have flashlight in hand, wether you are walking in a dimmly lit area or dark area at night and while doing so you hear something or see shadowy figures. With a flashlight clippied to a belt or inside a front pocket, the flashlight can be deployed quickly to light the area. The bad guy isn't always going to jump out of the shadows like a ninja. Many times there are indicators before an attack happens if you are being alert and not walking around with your head up your a**.
> There are times when a flashlight won't help and there are time when it can help. If you don't have a flashlight you won't be able to deploy one if the circumstances would call for one. If you do find yourself in a situation where you need to deploy a flashight in conjuntion with a firearm, size and UI will matter. I find a 2 x cr123 size light with momentary only UI works best for me. It is small enough to manipulate my firearm with the flashlight in my hand but not too small where my hand might cover the front of the light. The UI is simple and as stress proof as a UI can be. There are many fine lights and UIs out there. This is what works best for me. The key is to practice with your equipment in realistic based scenarios. Go to the range and practice using your light with your firearm while shooting, reloading and clearing malfunctions. Take low light shooting courses that will run you through the paces. To say that a flashlight is of no use in these situations is just absurd and to say that a flashlight will give you the advantage in EVERY situation is also absurd.




let's go through the same scenario with both the tactically-oriented klarus xt2c and the zebralight sc600

1) klarus. you're walking at night and you notice something suspicious so you pull out your xt2c and you click it on. bad guy starts coming at you carrying a pipe so you pull out your pistol...

2) zebralight. you're walking at night and you notice something suspicious so you pull out your sc600 and you click it on then hold it in overhand position. bad guy starts coming at you carrying a pipe so you pull out your pistol...


so there it makes no difference that you got no tactically-oriented UI. 

now but if an attack is imminent then forget the flashlight, just draw your gun asap.

either way the "tactical UI" doesn't help you. this is of course assuming you're only using your firearm defensively. i would think that a tactical UI would be quite useful for an assassin LOL


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## flashlight nut (May 20, 2012)

Keep in mind that you do not want to have your light on constantly. Whenever you deploy a firearm you want to seek cover. When moving from cover to cover your light should be off. When reloading or clearing malfunctions your light should be off so you are not lit up like a Christmas tree and the bad guy can see you are vulnerable at that moment. I can tell you from experience that soft presses usually do not work under stress for most people. Do not get hung up on the word "tactical". Many times it is used incorrectly and it mean different things to different people. Just pick the UI that lets you accomplish what you need to do quickly, efficiently and simply. Again, this stuff is not learned by reading or osmosis. Research is a good place to start but you need to physically train for these situations if you are serious about it. 
I should also mention that I am not familiar with the UI on the Klarus or Zebralight so my comments are not directed to these lights.


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## fyrstormer (May 20, 2012)

In regards to quick deployment, I like the Jetbeam RRT-0. Forward clicky so I don't have to click the switch to get a burst of light, and a control ring that lets me select any brightness level the light is capable of generating, and also letting me pre-select the brightness before the light is turned on, while still letting me leave the ring in Max Brightness position when it's just sitting in my pocket.


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## Monocrom (May 20, 2012)

Chances are, if you have to draw your handgun while out & about, it's going to be under less than ideal conditions. Tactical light with a momentary switch on the left side, possibly clipped to a pants pocket. Firearm on the right side, either in an IWB holster or in a pocket holster. Get used to drawing the light with your non-dominant hand. Handgun always with the dominant one. 

Chances are, when you truly need your gun; you're going to need more light than what's around you in the form of ambient light.


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## [email protected] (May 22, 2012)

Overclocker said:


> if ambient light is so low that you can't even make that assessment then as a flashaholic you should already have a flashlight turned on LOL
> 
> but even a typical "dark alley" has enough ambient light to make it possible for you to assess the situation




You sound like you've already made up your mind then...


Want 2 hands free to draw your firearm? why not get a weapon mountable light? :devil:


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## BillSWPA (May 22, 2012)

A few responses to various posts, presented somewhat randomly . . . 

I carry a handgun everywhere it is legal to do so, and a light everywhere. The light has been a Surefire E-series 2xCR123 light since about 2002 or 2003, starting with an E2E, L4 (for more years than any other light), and currently E2D LED. I have not found the lights to be burdensome to carry, and have EDC'd Z-series lights before that time.

If you are carrying a handgun, one hand drawing, shooting, reloading, and malfunction clearing should be part of your skill set. If they are not, seek additional training. So, using one hand to manipulate the light should not be a disadvantage.

Tritium sights are quite visible, and even helpful, in sufficient light to identify threats, unless they are dimming out and in need of replacement. Complete darkness is not required in order to see them. If you are facing complete darkness, you may wish to use your light quickly to identify your target, and then use your tritium sights, without the light, to engage the target. You then want to MOVE.

It is impossible to predict the situation you will face in advance. You may have a reason to have the light out in advance, or you may not. You may have enough light without your light to make the decisions you need to make, or you may not. In any event, having the light with you is never a disadvantage.

Regarding comments about not carrying a gun but being trained in the martial arts, they are not mutually exclusive alternatives, but instead are both complementary pieces of the puzzle. The martial arts will be more useful in a wider variety of situations, including those not rising to the level of deadly force, or those requiring creating the opportunity to access the gun. Some situations, however, will not be resolvable without the gun. 

Regarding weapon mounted lights, they have their place. However, if you are searching, do you want to cover everything you need to see with the muzzle of your gun? Probably not in most cases.


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## madecov (May 22, 2012)

Very nicely written bill,

My perspective may be a bit different concerning weapon mounted lights since I am a Police officer. If my weapon is out it is because there is or has been a threat of serious bodily injury or death by a suspect. If my weapon is out of it's holster then I am prepared to use it at that time. Using a light on the weapon to light my target or suspect *can* be the norm. If I am clearing a building I just may be using a weapon mounted light to cover everything because of the imminent threat. 

When off duty I do carry a smaller light and I would not use a weapon mounted light. In fact off duty I won't do any searches but will direct on duty units who arrive to the last known location of a suspect. My duty weapon and off duty weapon have night sites. There are several different thoughts on the use of lights for defensive applications. Each has valid points and each has points that may not suit the needs of the circumstances at any given time.

In the end, it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.


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## Chrontius (May 23, 2012)

My rationale for carrying a "tactical" light is it helps me avoid that sort of situation in the first place. 

Also, if I'm in a long dark narrow alleyway, the light's already in my hand. I carry a G2Z in a Wilson Combat holster, so it's comfortable and easy to carry; the ability to simply see what's going on can help keep situations from getting out of control. Or it can help me find the keys that fell out of my pocket and without which I'm going to spend a half-hour or more loitering in a dark parking lot while AAA sends a truck.


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## CarpentryHero (May 23, 2012)

Though I'm not an officer and I can't carry a gun, I believe in gradual escalation approach. I'm a city maint carpenter and when homeless have broken into a vacant property, I've been aloud to help clear buildings. I walk through the building with a flashlight and hammer, the flashlight is off but ready unless it's dark. If I find someone ligh goes on but aimed below the eyeline, if they appear aggressive then shine the light in there eyes and ready the hammer while calling for assistance. The Zebralight Sc600 has taken the fight right out of the few that have had weapons. 
A Nailbender Sst50 single mode in a 6pd was my go too light till I got the Zebralight


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## Solscud007 (May 23, 2012)

Sorry for not having the patience to read all the replies here. But here are my experiences and observations regarding lights and firearms.

1. A flashlight is such a handy tool that it doesnt make sense not to have one EDC anyway. Given the current technology of today you can have bright, small, and a variety of battery options. I like the V10R Ti with extender. It runs on a variety of batteries and most importantly of all, AA alkalines for emergencies and is still plenty bright.

2. Shooting with a flashlight in hand requires a lot of practice. Training helps but you can watch plenty of youtube videos on low light shooting to get a few good ideas. It is paramount that you try these out IN THE DARK. No matter how competent of a shooter you are, try doing it in the dark. This poses a lot of problems for some. I have a difficult time finding a place where I can shoot in the dark. Most if not all ranges will not turn the lights off. Public outdoor ranges dont operate long enough for the sun to go down.

I am a member of a local shooting club. 10 months out of the year we shoot outdoors. During Jan and Feb we go to an indoor range due to the cold. It has been my mission to introduce low light shooting to my fellow members. There were plenty of fumbles and errors just because they had a hard time manipulating the gun in the dark. Then add the problem of having a light in your hand. Quite a few of them had the wrong mentality IMHO. They just quit. "oh I have a jam" or "I dropped my light" etc. Just think how it is going to work when you need it? It wont. 

Trust me, just getting yourself and your gun up and running in the dark is tough enough. Just wait until you start thinking about manipulating from concealment or a possible force on force scenario. People never "rise up" to the occasion. They settle to what they have practiced These guys had difficulty manipulating their guns in the dark and they are only stressed about the timer running and their performance. It isnt even a life threatening event.

Think of the skill, to use a light while shooting, as another tool in your tool box. You dont know when and if you will need it, but it is good to know how to use it when you need it.


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## ikeyballz (May 23, 2012)

I dont carry a gun - correction; in my state concealed carry is not allowed. The light is my first and last defense. I carry it out set to turbo/strobe, in my hand when I'm walking in what I feel is a sketchy area. My plan is to disorient someone, then book it before they recover.


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## flashlight nut (May 23, 2012)

ikeyballz said:


> I dont carry a gun - correction; in my state concealed carry is not allowed. The light is my first and last defense. I carry it out set to turbo/strobe, in my hand when I'm walking in what I feel is a sketchy area. My plan is to disorient someone, then book it before they recover. IF I so need, I suppose a flashlight held in your fist is a good defensive tool too.



ikeyballz, you are new to the forum (welcome) so I am sure you are unaware of certain rules. Discussions on using a flashlight as a hand held weapon is frowned upon in this forum a may get the thread closed. So far we have discussed the use of a flashlight in conjunction with a firearm, and frankly I am surprised we haven't been visited by a moderator but i am sure they are monitoring this thread. Even though your statement has merit and no bad intentions, this is not the place to discuss such techniques. I have seen a few threads close rather quickly for this very reason.
I must say that there have been many good responses and interesting personal accounts.


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## fishndad (May 23, 2012)

ikeyballz said:


> I dont carry a gun - correction; in my state concealed carry is not allowed. The light is my first and last defense. I carry it out set to turbo/strobe, in my hand when I'm walking in what I feel is a sketchy area. My plan is to disorient someone, then book it before they recover. IF I so need, I suppose a flashlight held in your fist is a good defensive tool too.



i dont walk in sketchy areas!


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## dc38 (May 26, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> There is no reason not to carry a flashlight, because no matter where you live it will be nighttime 12 hours a day on average. Also there is no reason to carry a light you can't make ready at a moment's notice, because there's no reason to carry ANY tool you can't make ready at a moment's notice. You don't need the excuse of "tactical advantage" to justify carrying useful tools that work well, even though half the cops who've seen my flashlight ask why I'm not content to use something inferior.



Ask them if they'd carry a cheap pistol or possibly defective rounds for their sidearm...


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## dc38 (May 26, 2012)

CarpentryHero said:


> The Zebralight Sc600 has taken the fight right out of the few that have had weapons.
> A Nailbender Sst50 single mode in a 6pd was my go too light till I got the Zebralight



Perhaps they thought that you were an LEO purely from the output that was cascading from your Zebralight lol. After all, the average CPFer carries some way more than average "firepower" than an average person, just of a different kind :thumbsup: If reasoning doesn't work, then show them the light!


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## ikeyballz (May 27, 2012)

flashlight nut said:


> ikeyballz, you are new to the forum (welcome) so I am sure you are unaware of certain rules. Discussions on using a flashlight as a hand held weapon is frowned upon in this forum a may get the thread closed. So far we have discussed the use of a flashlight in conjunction with a firearm, and frankly I am surprised we haven't been visited by a moderator but i am sure they are monitoring this thread. Even though your statement has merit and no bad intentions, this is not the place to discuss such techniques. I have seen a few threads close rather quickly for this very reason.
> I must say that there have been many good responses and interesting personal accounts.




oops, sorry - I didnt mean it in that way, I meant it in a "as good as a rock/ throw and run away" way.


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## ikeyballz (May 27, 2012)

fishndad said:


> i dont walk in sketchy areas!



I wish I had that choice... I work late at my lab sometimes and when I leave around midnight/2am theres normally no one around. Theres security that walks around, but there have been some muggings in my area.


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## fyrstormer (May 29, 2012)

dc38 said:


> Ask them if they'd carry a cheap pistol or possibly defective rounds for their sidearm...


I would, but it occurs to me that asking a cop about the condition of their gun is a good way to get harassed.


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## Steve Barnhart (May 31, 2012)

As a police tactical instructor, I give this simple advice to my students. If you carry a gun, carry a flashlight. (And a knife, but that's not what we're discussing.)

To my non-law enforcement friends, I give this simple advice. Carry a gun and a flashlight. And a knife. Sound familiar?

Only you can protect yourself and your family, unless an officer just happens to be with you at the moment of danger. Look a round you right now. See any cops?

Besides, 99% of the time now I am not pointing a gun at someone. 


-Steve


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## jorn (May 31, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> There is no reason not to carry a flashlight, because no matter where you live it will be nighttime 12 hours a day on average.


Not quite. It wont be dark at all around here before sometime in august. I carry a light anyway, but it wont see mutch use. 

In winter, it's dark 24h a day, and we dont see sunlight at all for months. It's my flashoholic season


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## fyrstormer (May 31, 2012)

jorn said:


> Not quite. It wont be dark at all around here before sometime in august. I carry a light anyway, but it wont see mutch use.
> 
> In winter, it's dark 24h a day, and we dont see sunlight at all for months. It's my flashoholic season


I think you need to look up the definition of the word "average".  If you add the nighttime hours for all the days of the year, and divide by 365, you will get ~12 hours of nighttime per day.

I could never live that far north. I can deal with midnight sun and polar twilight, but I can't deal with the cold. All I want is weather that is 70 degrees year-round, so I never have to worry about dressing properly. Why is that too much to ask?


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## dc38 (Jun 1, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> I would, but it occurs to me that asking a cop about the condition of their gun is a good way to harassed.



Hm...They might arrest somebody for illegal possession of a weapon if they unwittingly imply that their flashlight is "equated" to a gun or other weapon of some sort...SOME (not most) cops are stupid enough to do that lol. Same goes with cops who deny people their amendment rights. ROFLSMH.


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## flashlight nut (Jun 1, 2012)

dc38 said:


> Hm...They might arrest somebody for illegal possession of a weapon if they unwittingly imply that their flashlight is "equated" to a gun or other weapon of some sort...SOME (not most) cops are stupid enough to do that lol. Same goes with cops who deny people their amendment rights. ROFLSMH.



Are you kidding me?!?


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## fyrstormer (Jun 2, 2012)

flashlight nut said:


> Are you kidding me?!?


He definitely isn't. Didn't you know? Cops (as a culture, not necessarily as free-thinking individuals) think they can do whatever they want, including terminating your Constitutional rights when it's convenient for them. http://redtape.msnbc.msn.com/_news/...-can-be-terminated-when-cops-cameras-dont-mix

I don't think the issue here is so much that reporters were filming public police activity, but that filming police activity implies you doubt whether the police are doing the right thing -- questioning the police's judgement. That tends to be a Very Bad Thing if you're not actively seeking a confrontation with the police, hence why I'd rather not suggest that a police officer's logic regarding flashlight quality might be flawed.


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## flashlight nut (Jun 2, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> He definitely isn't. Didn't you know? Cops (as a culture, not necessarily as free-thinking individuals) think they can do whatever they want, including terminating your Constitutional rights when it's convenient for them. http://redtape.msnbc.msn.com/_news/...-can-be-terminated-when-cops-cameras-dont-mix
> 
> I don't think the issue here is so much that reporters were filming public police activity, but that filming police activity implies you doubt whether the police are doing the right thing -- questioning the police's judgement. That tends to be a Very Bad Thing if you're not actively seeking a confrontation with the police, hence why I'd rather not suggest that a police officer's logic regarding flashlight quality might be flawed.



It's very convenient to take bits and pieces of film footage to portray the so called truth. Being a cop, I find your remarks ignorant and offensive. People like you think anyone can say and do anything they want regardless of public safety, disruption to other people's rights or following the law. Everyone knows that professional protesters uses tactics to provoke the police. So for the hours of footage showing cops being spit on, shoved and cursed at and showing amazing restraint, only a few seconds showing the cops "over reacting" is shown. Being a cop, we have to live walking on eggshells trying to do our job without offending anyone because every judgement we make gets put under a microscope (by our politically motivated bosses, civilian review boards and the media) and our jobs are then on the line, so don't think for a second we make those descisions lightly or without actually knowing the law. This is especially true in our private lives. You can get a ticket or commit minor infractions in your private life and go to work the next day without worrying about loosing your job. We have to report such things and again worry about loosing our jobs, benefits, pension and modest pay to support our families. All this for the "privilege" of putting our lives on the line to protect YOU.
This alone sould muster just a little respect. 
So no, I didn't know cops can do what ever they want. And what do you know about the culture of police officers. Did you ever hear the term,"walk a mile in a man's shoes before you judge him." How many violent confrontations do you repond to on a daily basis?
I understand that the majority of the public does support and respect LEOs and I thank you.
PM me if you want to discuss this further.


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## fyrstormer (Jun 2, 2012)

That's cute, tell me off in public and then say I should respond in private. No thank you. Delete your public post and send it to me via PM if you want to have a conversation via PM.

It concerns me that you think my support for civilian monitoring of the police means I'm against the police. It also makes me think you're the sort of police who _needs_ civilian monitoring. It takes a special kind of mindset to think "this world is on the verge of chaos and I'm just the guy to help straighten things out," and people with that mindset set me on-edge. I was born with a strong moral compass and I don't need anyone's help to be straightened out.

Admittedly I've never been in a gunfight and I'd certainly appreciate help if I ever found myself in or near one, but at the same time, I figure the strong moral compass I mentioned before is probably *why* I've never been in a gunfight. Of course if I decided to become a police officer, I would expect gunfights to happen from time to time as part of the job, and hopefully I'd have the decency to avoid using that to guilt-trip the people I willingly chose to work for.


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## flashlight nut (Jun 2, 2012)

I see, you can make insulting and inflamatory remarks in the public forum but how dare I respond in kind. Some how standing up for myself and my profession means I now need monitoring because I don't share your views. How elitist of you. 
Let's see,"Cops think they can do whatever they want including terminating your constitutional rights when it's convenient for them". I think that statement goes well beyond mere "support" for public monitoring. I guess your strong moral compass includes making unprovoked and insulting statements. 
It's also nice of you to take the liberty of interpreting my comments to mean "this world is on the verge of chaos and I'm the guy to straighten things out". I don't know what type of calls you think cops get called to but it's not to have tea and crumpets with the local church group. You seem to put forth a lot of your interpretations as facts. I truly hope you do become a police officer some day and then reflect on your comments made here. If you think this is a guilt trip rather than an opposing response, maybe you have something to feel guilty about.


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## fyrstormer (Jun 2, 2012)

I'm very sorry you can't deal with my opinion that you don't like without getting emotionally hurt by it. If I'd known you were a cop before I responded to you the first time, I most likely wouldn't have posted what I did, but only because I've learned (as stated previously) that disagreeing with cops is a Very Bad Thing.

Ironically, your opposing response demonstrated exactly the sort of hubris required for a cop to question whether I need to have such fancy tools on my person, since after all I'm not doing anything important with my life, like breaking up fights for a living. Thanks for that.


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## fishndad (Jun 2, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> I'm very sorry you can't deal with my opinion that you don't like without getting emotionally hurt by it. If I'd known you were a cop before I responded to you the first time, I most likely wouldn't have posted what I did, but only because I've learned (as stated previously) that disagreeing with cops is a Very Bad Thing.
> 
> Ironically, your opposing response demonstrated exactly the sort of hubris required for a cop to question whether I need to have such fancy tools on my person, since after all I'm not doing anything important with my life, like breaking up fights for a living. Thanks for that.



Im not a cop and ive read this thread through.Of course he was offinded,and then you come back with"emotionally hurt"
you sound intelligent and the language you have chosen has purpose.The Purpose was to inflame an argument.So you have
expressed your oppinion of the Police,and know you are continuing to be provocative.Did you also tease other boys on the playground
then run behind the teacher?


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## Samy (Jun 2, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> I'm very sorry you can't deal with my opinion that you don't like without getting emotionally hurt by it. If I'd known you were a cop before I responded to you the first time, I most likely wouldn't have posted what I did, but only because I've learned (as stated previously) that disagreeing with cops is a Very Bad Thing.
> 
> Ironically, your opposing response demonstrated exactly the sort of hubris required for a cop to question whether I need to have such fancy tools on my person, since after all I'm not doing anything important with my life, like breaking up fights for a living. Thanks for that.




I think you're done.


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## flashlight nut (Jun 2, 2012)

Again, your interpretations of what I wrote are very creative. I suppose dc38's comment about cops equating flashlights with guns and being stupid enough to do so, along with your agreement and colorful comments elicited such a "Very Bad Thing" happening by a police officer. Many cops belong to this forum and I have never heard any profess that a civilian should be restricted on what flashlight to carry. Even in a thread such as this we have given advice on using a flashlight in conjunction with weapons or just for defensive purposes so I am at a loss as to where you get your opinions from. And please point out where I said if you are not breaking up fights for a living you are not doing anything important with your life, or am I just too stupid to see it. You have a lot of maturing to do.


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## flashlight nut (Jun 2, 2012)

You are right Samy. This has gone on quite enough. My apologies to the rest of you.


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## TEEJ (Jun 2, 2012)

fishndad said:


> Im not a cop and ive read this thread through.Of course he was offinded,and then you come back with"emotionally hurt"
> you sound intelligent and the language you have chosen has purpose.The Purpose was to inflame an argument.So you have
> expressed your oppinion of the Police,and know you are continuing to be provocative.Did you also tease other boys on the playground
> then run behind the teacher?




I get the same impression. Making inflammatory statements, and then acting as though anyone inflamed by their inflammatory statement is now persecuting them.

It IS like hitting someone...and then when they hit you back, acting like THEY started it.

Cops are HUMAN BEINGS, with feelings, wives, children, political opinions, religious views, etc, just like anyone else. They are NOT all the same, like carbon copies of some stereotype. You will typically be wrong if you assume everyone in a group is the same...for any group.

Not all Muslims are terrorists, anymore than all Christians are Oklahoma City bombers or white supremacists. 

Are ALL cops so perfect that they should not be supervised, no, of course not, but as a group, at least the guys I know, DO work pretty hard to do the right thing day in and day out. 


And take biased sources with a grain of salt.

If you edit video footage, you can "prove" about anything you want to. 

Bits of footage, spliced together as needed, can tell any story you want it to. Some friends who are in the "business" have show me how this is done in numerous fairly easy ways. A mac with "imovie" can take a gang attacking and beating an old man, and edit it to show the old man attacking the gang...a reality tv show can take several disjointed stories, and create a new completely unrelated story...

...and a group harassing someone and finally instigating a retaliatory reaction, can be shown as the retaliatory action started the confrontation, etc....very easily.

People who SEE the edited versions are always tricked into believing what they saw HAPPENED. 

Those with an open mind can sometimes be convinced it DIDN'T happen, but, the closed minded ones, even mildly close minded, will NEVER revise their memory of the events...especially if the events support their world view, etc.


That variable is true for all of us. If we get evidence that supports our beliefs...its accepted as fact w/o resistance.

If we get evidence that is in conflict with our world view, our FIRST instinct is to discredit it.


People are like that, good people and bad people....its HUMAN nature.


If you believe that a group is bad, say that Muslims are terrorists, any Muslim that IS shown as a terrorist is immediately considered as proof/validation of that belief.

If you believe a group is good (Like whatever YOU are, etc...), any one in your group that is shown as bad is assumed to be framed, unfairly prosecuted, or, NOT REPRESENTATIVE of your group.


So, the Muslims who are not terrorists see a Muslim arrested for terrorism, and decry that terrorist as an extremist who does not represent THEIR views.

The Christians who see a Christian arrested for terrorism ALSO view that guy as an extremist who doesn't represent THEIR views, and so forth.


The above will NOT differentiate extremists from the OTHER group as not being representative of THAT GROUP though...as there's no conflict with their world view to provide the impetus do do it. 



So, if you want to be open minded and fair....and at least be open to OTHER World Views, etc....when you hear/see evidence in conflict, AND in support, of YOUR view, try (TRY) to consider it as if it DIDN'T support or conflict with your beliefs.


SOME people can DO that, most can't...opposing opinions don't fit into their head in a way that allows unbiased evaluation. 


Food for thought.



And, "tactical" is WAAAY over used as a term. If you want the light to come on in high, you also want it to be able to go off just as quickly, in case the light reveals a guy about to shoot you.

If you have to SCROLL through options to get the light off...well, you are providing something to aim at while you do it.


If you didn't practice, you will screw up, and be too tied up with details instead of muscle memory. This is a bad thing.

Tactical, if it means the light goes on/off with the switch, either momentary or another click, etc...so there's no scrolling, and comes on in high always...works better than a light that comes on wherever you had it last, but goes to medium and then low or firefly or strobe or beacon or disco duck, etc....before off.


Light itself, as a means to incapacitate an aggressor, works for a second or two on a sober person...so, its not a solution in of itself. On a drunk, etc, it might work longer, as they are more easily disoriented.

Mostly, its way to see them in more detail, see if they are armed and with what, and have a second or two to decide what to do next. If you don't know what to do next, well, hope they don't either.


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## Monocrom (Jun 2, 2012)

Back on topic . . . 

I had received an SF L1 "extreme" from our own MilkySpit a few months back. Wanted a light that could do double-duty instead of a light with simply two output levels. For that reason, I like to call it the L1 Gemini. Low mode has been increased to 40 lumens, with plenty of runtime. When using low, you twist the tailcap a bit for constant-on mode. Now you have an average general-use flashlight. High mode however is used by pushing the momentary tailcap switch and holding it down for roughly 200 lumens of output. Thus using it as a true tactical light.

Not standard-issue, obviously. Not inexpensive either. Modification was $150 and that's if you supply Scott with a stock SureFire L1. Good news for me was finding one on the CPF MarketPlace for around half of what a new one costs. So under $240 for me for the total package. But there is the wait time. I knew Milky was overloaded with orders when I put mine in. 8 months later, I had my milkyfied L1. Definitely worth the wait. Since the L1 has the length of a typical AA flashlight with a clicky switch, that means a solid grip with all the fingers. Some think the L1 is a bit too long for a single CR123 based light. It is. But that extra length is fantastic when actually holding the light in hand.

So, there you go. My idea for a light that can function as both a traditional flashlight and a tactical flashlight. Capable of filling two different roles instead of just being a light with two output levels. Best of both worlds with no compromises needed. If anyone wants one, Scott can help. Just keep in mind that he's a one-man shop and flooded with orders. Likely only to get worse in the future. Once again, wait is worth it though.


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## flashlight nut (Jun 2, 2012)

Monocrom said:


> Back on topic . . .
> 
> I had received an SF L1 "extreme" from our own MilkySpit a few months back. Wanted a light that could do double-duty instead of a light with simply two output levels. For that reason, I like to call it the L1 Gemini. Low mode has been increased to 40 lumens, with plenty of runtime. When using low, you twist the tailcap a bit for constant-on mode. Now you have an average general-use flashlight. High mode however is used by pushing the momentary tailcap switch and holding it down for roughly 200 lumens of output. Thus using it as a true tactical light.
> 
> ...



Seems very similar to the LX2 in terms of UI and output. Other than a presumably shorter light, what are the differences?


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## Monocrom (Jun 3, 2012)

flashlight nut said:


> Seems very similar to the LX2 in terms of UI and output. Other than a presumably shorter light, what are the differences?



Keep in mind that the L1 uses a single CR123 cell, while the LX2 uses two such cells. 200 lumens from a light running on two CR123 cells is easy. From one cell? Scott definitely worked his magic. UI is technically the same. The primary use for the lower setting on my L1 is a slight twist for constant on, so it can function as a regular flashlight. However, yes; you can gently push down for momentary mode of 40 lumens. And, even though momentary tailcap switch is the ideal way to switch on the higher 200 lumens mode; yes' you can twist the tailcap for constant-on of those 200 lumens. Once again, the ideal is twist for the 40 lumens medium mode and momentary for the 200 lumens high mode. That's the best way to use the double personality of the Milky L1 "extreme."

A lot of CPFers hear that a light has dual output of 40 lumens / 200 lumens, they start to wonder why those two settings were chosen. Surely a much lower setting would be better overall on a two-mode flashlight. And I'd be the first one to agree. However, while the SF LX2 is indeed a two-mode flashlight, my Milky L1 isn't. Technically it is. Best to picture having two different flashlights in each hand. One, a single-mode flashlight used for general lighting chores. The type of flashlight every homeowner keeps around, but a quality version. Something along the lines of an old-fashioned 2AA [email protected] model with an aftermarket LED upgrade. In terms of operation, you twist to switch it on. In your other hand is a single-mode tactical light with a momentary tailcap switch. Something along the lines of a SureFire 6P with a Malkoff production M60 LED drop-in in it. 

Now you've got two lights. One for general lighting chores, and one for true tactical use. What I had Scott do was combine those two separate lights into one very compact flashlight. Now the 40 lumen mode and the 200 lumen mode makes more sense. You pick whichever single mode you need depending on the task facing you. With the LX2, SureFire clearly meant for it to be a two-mode light with a 15 lumen low and a 200 lumen high. In terms of use, the modified L1 is meant to be used as either a single mode traditional flashlight or a single mode tactical light. Dual-personality flashlight instead of dual-mode flashlight. 

Beam profile is also very different. I let Scott know I didn't want the tight beam usually found on SureFire lights that come equipped with an optic. I wanted something closer to what you get with a reflector. A nice hotspot but with plenty of side-spill. Far more pragmatic and useful. (At least for my needs.) Scott definitely didn't disappoint. Yes, runtime on high mode is shorter with my L1 than with an LX2. Though not by a great deal. And once again, you have a single cell light compared to one running on two cells. If I reach into my spares-carrier and toss in another cell into my L1 after the first cell dies, in order to have a fairer comparison, than the runtimes on high for both lights is nearly identical. 

Once again, Milky has worked his magic. No clue how he does it. Maybe he uses some ancient manuscripts and waves a magic wand for a few hours, and all of a sudden there's a new batch of SureFires that are now working at their absolute full potential. (Sure, he works his magic on other brands. But generally it's on SureFires.)

One final difference would be the grip. There's not much checkering on an L1 body, but damn if it's not significantly more than what you'd find on an LX2. That's one of the two main reasons I never bought an LX2. (Can't stand the reversible clip either. The length of the L1 means that the bezel-up clip on it is 100% functional.) Certain things should be nice and smooth. Like a beautiful woman's legs. Others? Not so much. If I truly need my flashlight to work, I'm going to be beyond mad as Hell if it squirts out of my hand like a wet fish simply because there's just a tiny bit of sweat on my hands. I like the older SF models. The ones that had checkering that was so good that you could literally use it to saw through other flashlights made by the competition. I don't like these new "kinder & gentler" SureFires. When I grab one of my SureFires, I want to feel as though I have a cheese-grater covered in Krazy Glue in my fist. Prisoners on Death Row have more freedom of movement than the SureFires I'm holding.


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## Quiksilver (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm surprised more CPFers don't get their *** kicked on the street for flashing a dangerously bright tool in the eyes of another person at night, when the situation could be avoided entirely. 

I know I would take serious offense if someone flashed a 200 lumen light in my dark-adapted eyes for no good reason. If I had no intention to attack them before, receiving that would be sufficent to be called an instigation. And if I couldn't see due to blindness, first instinct would be to close and engage since I am extremely vulnerable due to temporary blindness.


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## Monocrom (Jun 3, 2012)

Quiksilver said:


> I'm surprised more CPFers don't get their *** kicked on the street for flashing a dangerously bright tool in the eyes of another person at night, when the situation could be avoided entirely.



Likely the reason why that doesn't take place more often is that the vast majority of CPFers aren't that immature, and aren't that rude. 



> I know I would take serious offense if someone flashed a 200 lumen light in my dark-adapted eyes for no good reason. If I had no intention to attack them before, receiving that would be sufficent to be called an instigation. And if I couldn't see due to blindness, first instinct would be to close and engage since I am extremely vulnerable due to temporary blindness.



I'd be upset too if that happened to me for no good reason. I'd likely engage as well. Amazing the number of folks who just stay on that center line instead of moving off of it.


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## Solscud007 (Jun 3, 2012)

Quiksilver said:


> I'm surprised more CPFers don't get their *** kicked on the street for flashing a dangerously bright tool in the eyes of another person at night, when the situation could be avoided entirely.
> 
> I know I would take serious offense if someone flashed a 200 lumen light in my dark-adapted eyes for no good reason. If I had no intention to attack them before, receiving that would be sufficent to be called an instigation. And if I couldn't see due to blindness, first instinct would be to close and engage since I am extremely vulnerable due to temporary blindness.



I concur with Monocrom. I can only speak for myself, but I never blast anyone in the face. Unless it is a friend and I am messing with him. Other than that, I would only use a full blast if the situation demanded it. I have used bright tactical lights on people during low light airsoft encounters. These are guys with fully automatic weapons in their hands. Trust me, with a full blast of light charging forward to engage let alone shooting is the last thing on their minds. Sure I have been shot at after a blast of light but they cant aim well and always miss. Also I am shooting them right as I blast them with light. In airsoft one hit your out or down waiting for a medic (aspect of the game, not a real medic)

Seeing these people's reactions to the light is informative. There is a brief moment that you can take advantage of while they are recovering from the light. You can then judge what to do next. A good option is to blast and book it out of there. A better option is to have your wits about you. Keeping your head up and scanning for possible threats is a much better use of your time. I recall a study where prisoners were shown a film/video of people in the street. They were asked who would you target and who would you avoid. People who were up and alert were avoided. People who were not alert were picked as targets.

Seeing a possible threat early on give you a lot more time and opportunity to adjust accordingly. You have many more options before resorting to a light.


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## fishndad (Jun 3, 2012)

Quiksilver said:


> I'm surprised more CPFers don't get their *** kicked on the street for flashing a dangerously bright tool in the eyes of another person at night, when the situation could be avoided entirely.
> 
> I know I would take serious offense if someone flashed a 200 lumen light in my dark-adapted eyes for no good reason. If I had no intention to attack them before, receiving that would be sufficent to be called an instigation. And if I couldn't see due to blindness, first instinct would be to close and engage since I am extremely vulnerable due to temporary blindness.



Where did that come from? Ive never heard of flashing someone on the street in the eyes with your flashlight.
Only discussing what would be a good light for doing so for SELF DEFENSE to avoid and get away from an attacker.
This thread!


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## TEEJ (Jun 3, 2012)

fishndad said:


> Where did that come from? Ive never heard of flashing someone on the street in the eyes with your flashlight.
> Only discussing what would be a good light for doing so for SELF DEFENSE to avoid and get away from an attacker.
> This thread!



Yeah, this is not about randomly flashing someone in the eyes, this is about STOPPING AN ATTACKER for a moment to buy reaction time. As Solscud mentioned, it buys a delay period of a second or so that you can use to your advantage.

In an attack situation, If I hit the guy in the eyes to buy that hesitation...I do NOT stay in one place, or hold the light at the same orientation to my body. Once I hit them, I hold the light out to my side so that if they DO try something, they are like the bull charging the cape.



As at that point they were ALREADY potentially charging like a bull, hence my desire to make them hesitate/give me time to take appropriate counter measures...this is a very good analogy. If all they see is the light, and that's where they are charging, I at least have moved my center of mass off center from their target point.

I can also simply turn the light OFF when they are close, as their vision will not be recovered enough to compensate, and, they will simply continue towards where the light was last. If attempting to fire, that is also where they are most likely to aim...where the light was last. 

This is one reason I like a floody beam, in addition to their head, I want to see which way their hands and belt buckles are going, etc...to anticipate dodges and weapon use, etc....and why I like if the light doesn't need to scroll to an off position.

As mentioned above, attackers target the vulnerable....and avoid savvy targets as higher risk. If you have a response to their attack that is OTHER THAN cowering/rolling into a ball, etc...they re-assess whether you might hurt THEM. They don't want to get hurt...they would much rather come up behind an unsuspecting victim, and whack them in the back of their head, knocking them out...and then take what they want with no chance of being identified later, etc.

The TV versions where they face you and ask for your wallet are rare...although the newbs might do that, and, then have to kill you once they realize you can ID them, or, not think about it, and simply get ID'd/go to court later, etc.


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## fishndad (Jun 3, 2012)

Man.TEEJ.You sure have a way of exlpaining things. I think if you wrote a book say" Flashlights for Dummies "with a brick
insie(that way i could smack them over the head after they have read it of course).Some folks might finally get it.
I will try ,humbly of course to back up what you said,You would use the light to very quickly blind your attacker and run.
IF you are incapable of running.If you are backed into a corner or are otherwise screwed.Then god may be on your side.
Myself i am prepared and trained to use lethal force.But I do pray from time to time that I will never have to live with a decision baring those circumstances.


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## lightfooted (Jun 4, 2012)

Interesting how this thread got a bit derailed there for a bit...also interesting how it basically started because someone who supposedly deals with that kind of stuff daily on the job couldn't just say "Well we aren't all like that..." and then dropped it. (To be clear, I'm not saying you are like that)

Even more interesting is this aggressive reaction to getting blasted in the face with 200 lumens while out in public. Seriously? No really I wasn't sure if you guys were serious....maybe I should be able to pick out your sarcasm better but really I am not clear on what you guys would do. (You guys being QS, Mono and Solscud)

Why??? .....last time I checked there was no law regulating the use of a flashlight to light someone up at night. It's not like they are hosing you down with OC or pulling a tire iron out to knock you over the head with. However suddenly becoming aggressive with a total stranger just because he flashed you with a light is definitely grounds for taking a defensive stance. After all maybe I wasn't flashing you with the intent to blind you but trying instead to identify you or someone else nearby...or get the attention of a passing friend in his car so he could pick me up....or any one of a few hundred other reasons that could be legitimate. 

Now suddenly this guy is coming at me like he is going to kick my *** and I don't know why... yep I'm definitely going into condition orange...and depending how it goes from there....maybe even red.


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## SimulatedZero (Jun 4, 2012)

I feel that a lot of the aggression that some people have expressed is the armchair mentality. It's something that everybody, including myself, is guilty of. When people are in a safe environment they tend to exaggerate what their reaction would be to being "offended". It's not a purposeful attempt to make themselves appear bigger, badder, better, it's just something that I've noticed people do. If I'm standing with a group of friend's I may say that I will teach someone a lesson for doing something stupid, but in reality I will be much more cautious about getting in a fight because of the steep consequences both legally and possibly physically. There's no point in getting that aggressive over something stupid. Most people aren't going to have that ballistic, aggressive attack mentality when being flashed in the eyes, either on accident or on purpose. They will be slightly disoriented for a very short moment as their brain processes what just happened. That delay will cause them to stop and look around at what's going on before they blindly attack someone. And even if they determined that someone purposefully blinded them they are more likely to talk, or yell, to the person to find out why they did that. But, because those people are in the safe environment of this forum they will say that they will attack for that kind of provocation. It's probably not purposeful and everybody at some point or another has done something similar.

Now as towards the value of carrying a tactical light with you every where. I am a big proponent of "If it works when you need it, then it's tactical for you" meaning that people should use what they feel the most comfortable with and are the most familiar with. You may EDC a Fenix PD20 and have to twist the head and use a reverse clicky to get into the strobe mode. But, if you have done that thousands of times over the course of a couple years you will be able to do so from muscle memory with out having to think about. Lets say you give that person a momentary only light to carry through a bad neighborhood. Yes, it is designed to more aptly suit tactical needs but the person is unfamiliar with it they may mess up somehow. They may pull out the light and go through the motion of setting up turbo/strobe like it's still the Fenix PD20 and that could cause them to change something on their tactical light to where it is now ineffective. 

Well that brings to mind training with what you will be using. If you are willing to go through the training that it would take to commit the new light to muscle memory then perhaps a "tactical" light would be suited for for you. But, if you plan to buy one and just carry it around when you are in seedy areas, then it could conceivably get you into more trouble. The thing about muscle memory is that it takes five thousand repetitions to commit something to muscle memory. But once you have that action/motion committed you will be able to do it every time quickly, efficiently, and more importantly correctly. This is why in boxing you get trained for a very long time before you get your first match. Here you aren't allowed to have a match until you have gone through six months of training. Most of which is at a slowed pace. You never spend a lot of time sparring at full speed. But, because you have spent so much time practicing that technique and committing it muscle memory, it will be there at full speed for you first match. Your body will know what to do and when to do it subconsciously, allowing you to focus more on the situation then on your reaction. The same will hold true with using your light under stress. If you have every mode of the light committed to muscle memory, you will be able to more effectively deploy that light in a tactical situation. This does not mean that your light would be better then a "tactical" light if both are equally trained with and used. It just means that the light you have committed to muscle memory will work better for you then the one that won't. And if you don't have time to set-up a light committed to muscle memory, regardless of the UI. Then you most likely are not going to have time to do anything but defend yourself or brace for impact as it were. 

That's my two lumens on the subject. Muscle Memory is key in any stressful situation, that's why people in high risk jobs go through so much training for that job. So they can properly react in an emergency. Having a "tactical" light on your person doesn't necessarily make you a harder target, depending on the person with the light, it could make you a softer target. So I wouldn't put as much thought into the light and would put more thought into committing it to memory. There is more to it, but that is a big point that I haven't seen really stressed in this thread yet. And if I missed, then I apologize.


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## TEEJ (Jun 4, 2012)

My impression of the OP's intent, was to see what the value of a tactical light was, for a civilian who carries a concealed weapon.

That implies that, to be qualified to carry a concealed weapon (Really qualified, not just being allowed to), one would also do what was required to be qualified to use whatever other accessories might be of value.

IE: they are already a hard target, because they are armed. The assailant, unless not too observant, would have to be breaking from the normal victim choice algorithm they unconsciously follow, to attack an armed victim. They would prefer a daydreaming tourist who is oblivious to their surroundings, and preferably, as weak and unimposing as possible. 


As the concealed carry guy would not be brandishing his trump cards unless the game played out that way...he is aware of a threat/is under attack/being threatened....his response can include drawing the weapon, and/or drawing the weapon and a light.

If a perp sees a response that LOOKS LEO-Like...a guy with a gun and a freakishly bright light....especially if the guy looks like he knows how to use them.....said perp will be thinking really hard and fast about if he should continue to try to take down this victim...or look for a way to break contact.

Even a lion goes after the old/sick looking antelopes rather than the strong healthy looking ones....they are easier targets with a higher chance of going down w/o kicking the lion's teeth in.

COULD the lion probably kill even a healthy antelope? Sure, but there are easier pickings...why take the risks associated with harder targets....and choosing human victims is analogous.


Even knowing that the light was on his face means he can now be potentially identified...so performing a crime immediately afterwards ups the ante...its another deterrent. 



NOTHING always works 100% of the time. Real life is like that. What deters one guy infuriates another, and so forth. What IS consistent though, is the TENDENCY for conflicts involving potential victimization to deescalate when the attacker perceives the victim as potentially aware of his surroundings/harder to take by surprise, and/or when the target shows evidence of also being potentially capable of counter measures/potential danger to the attacker.

Just because you HAVE a gun doesn't mean you have to use it. Just because you have a light doesn't mean you have to use it. Both give you options though you would not have without them. You just need to be able to choose what is appropriate for the situation.


For me, I think walking confidently and with purpose, while looking around/showing situational awareness, deters attacks by those looking for targets of opportunity.


That's the FIRST line of defense.


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## ledmitter_nli (Jun 4, 2012)

:rock:


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## ledmitter_nli (Jun 4, 2012)

In NYC (where virtually everything "defensive" is illegal) this is how I roll.






And when jogging, the light is in hand.






I'm more inclined to keep it clipped in my waist band from now on. Because people passing by me think I'm wielding a dangerous weapon or something.

I remember I was standing at an intersection returning home and there was a group of young kids. I actually over heard this "is that a gun?"

Seriously, from those pics above does it look like a firearm? I wouldn't call it it something that looks "off the shelf" as TEEJ characterizes it, either.

Even patrol officers who see me with it in hand give a 2nd look.

It's amazing how wussiefied our state of affairs have become.


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## Monocrom (Jun 4, 2012)

ledmitter_nli said:


> :rock:



Yeah . . . That's just advertising B.S.

You're not getting that level of intensity from a little Pelican flashlight. My Fenix TK35 on its highest setting could pull that off. But then again, that would be over 800 Lumens. Pelican definitely has not kept up with LED technology, and they don't use the latest emitters in their lights. Judging by the head and beam in the second pic, that looks like a Pelican M6 2320 model. Output = 82 lumens. Since those are likely emitter lumens, actual output would be about 55 lumens. You're not getting the type of intense beam in the first pic with a flashlight pumping out about 55 lumens only. And you're definitely not getting that type of reaction from a knife-toting attacker either.


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## ledmitter_nli (Jun 4, 2012)

ledmitter_nli said:


> In NYC (where virtually everything "defensive" is illegal) this is how I roll.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



^^^ Actually I should clarify. I really meant to say that the light doesn't look "off the shelf" (as TEEJ characterized in a different thread relating to being seen with a tactical light if you are an average dumpy civilian). So I can see it getting "disconcerting" looks from the sheep if they don't know what it is, and unfortunately, from the sheep herders as well.

"Suspicious person in a white shirt holding a "weapon". Arrive alive advise 84..." 

So I might just clip it with the shirt over it instead. Besides I can use the free hand to carry a wata botta.


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## ledmitter_nli (Jun 4, 2012)

Monocrom said:


> Yeah . . . That's just advertising B.S.
> 
> You're not getting that level of intensity from a little Pelican flashlight. My Fenix TK35 on its highest setting could pull that off. But then again, that would be over 800 Lumens. Pelican definitely has not kept up with LED technology, and they don't use the latest emitters in their lights. Judging by the head and beam in the second pic, that looks like a Pelican M6 2320 model. Output = 82 lumens. Since those are likely emitter lumens, actual output would be about 55 lumens. You're not getting the type of intense beam in the first pic with a flashlight pumping out about 55 lumens only. And you're definitely not getting that type of reaction from a knife-toting attacker either.



Yeah I know those pics are exaggerated. Posted them to get the spirit of the idea 

Any 700+ lumen light should do the job at that close of range.


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## Monocrom (Jun 4, 2012)

ledmitter_nli said:


> Any 700+ lumen light should do the job at that close of range.



Yup. Any old 700+ lumen flashlight that happens to be lying around.


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## TEEJ (Jun 4, 2012)

ledmitter_nli said:


> Yeah I know those pics are exaggerated. Posted them to get the spirit of the idea
> 
> Any 700+ lumen light should do the job at that close of range.



Even 500 L is enough at close range....and, if focused well, and close ENOUGH....really, even 100 L in the eyes CAN wreck a perp's night vision and make him hesitate. If he's NOT night adjusted, well, it still makes him squint.


Hence the LEO popularity of the XT11, etc.... Even NOT night adjusted, 500 + L are just a lot in your face to see through. 

We could start strolling around with some blinged out XM18's and use 15,000 Lumens to melt the guys head instead of just making him unable to see.

As cooler heads prevail, obviously, using your XM18 to make the other guy's head burst into flames  ...will help you to prevail.


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## dc38 (Jun 4, 2012)

flashlight nut said:


> Again, your interpretations of what I wrote are very creative. I suppose dc38's comment about cops equating flashlights with guns and being stupid enough to do so, along with your agreement and colorful comments elicited such a "Very Bad Thing" happening by a police officer. Many cops belong to this forum and I have never heard any profess that a civilian should be restricted on what flashlight to carry. Even in a thread such as this we have given advice on using a flashlight in conjunction with weapons or just for defensive purposes so I am at a loss as to where you get your opinions from. And please point out where I said if you are not breaking up fights for a living you are not doing anything important with your life, or am I just too stupid to see it. You have a lot of maturing to do.



Hey flashlight nut! I suppose my statement was misinterpreted to some extent. I didn't mean to spark a feud of any sort, it was just a passing comment about SOME cops being bullies and stupid. I apologize if i offended you in any way, but you shouldn't feel offended. My statement applies to some local cops around me who think they know everything. To recount an occurrence: a cop pulls over next to me at the bus stop and ask what i'm doing there. I tell him I'm waiting for the bus. He keeps asking me as to where I'm going, so i ask him if he has any reason to be questioning me like he is doing. He says he "don't need no reason to know your business". I replied that if i'm not under suspicion for anything or being detained, I'd appreciate if he would go on his merry way, because he's blocking the bus stop. He pulls his car into the parking lot behind me (shopping complex) and gets out of the car and approaches me and tells me to drop my bag. I tell him i don't consent to any unlawful searches and question him again as to why he's stopping me and if i'm free to go about my business. I point to the bus, which is now right next to us at the bus stop, and the driver is willing to wait because he recognizes me. I tell him to go on because he's a stickler for schedules. Anyways, the cop decides to grab my arm as i'm telling the driver to go, and whips me back around. (at this point i would like to yell in his face). He takes my bag and rifles through it and finds...nothing. I ask if he knows he is in serious violation for an unlawful search, and he raises his voice that i have no rights. He then drops my bag and proceeds to take my prized Klarus out of my pocket, again, without my permission. Dumbass shines the thing in his face and says, why are you carrying a weapon? At this point, another patrol car is passing by, and i flag them down. They come over and the first cop says, this kid is carrying a potentially dangerous weapon. (basically, they agreed that it potentially COULD be used to blind passing motorists, or as a kubaton) I was like, SERIOUSLY? The other cop agrees with this first moron, and tweedle dee and tweedle dum cuff me and stick me in the back of one of the cars and radio in for whatever reason. Needless to say, they HAD to let me go, as I was in violation of NO laws. I filed a complaint with the local station as well as the mayor's office, but in retrospect, I should've reported it to the news. So long story short, I'm just saying that there are SOME stupid cops around who are *#$(&*#!&**. Disregarding that, Flashlight nut, almost all other cops are professional and courteous, including NY's Finest. I have a few cops who are quite close friends, and never in a million years would i call them stupid. 

Now if everybody please continue discussing their flashlights as per schedule, 

(P.S., another funny occurrence at the mall when i was hanging around after work. Cop stops me because somebody in a white dress shirt had been stirring up trouble at the local sears and i was going to be held for ID'ing by a witness. To this, I consented, because I knew I was innocent and just trying to help the guy get his job done. Anywhoo, the witness comes out, and asks after a quick laugh and shake of the head "Officer, we described the guy as a 6'3 WHITE male..." I'm not white. -_-" Officer didn't even thank me for my time, just said "have a nice day". I LOLed with the witness and HE apologized...for what? hahaha. No harm, no foul. I hold no resentment)


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## fishndad (Jun 4, 2012)

Well since you put it that way. LOL


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## dc38 (Jun 4, 2012)

fishndad said:


> Well since you put it that way. LOL



LOL...I'm generally a passive person. For example, this thread's particular POI is discussing the purpose and possible utility of carrying a "TACTICAL" rated light as a civilian, not just any old flashlight. I'm sure this was mentioned before, but the term "tactical" is usually marketing hype these days. USING a flashlight tactically in a situation where it is required is a different story; after blinding somebody with a flashlight, you should use that opportunity to GTFO. You do NOT know what kind of heat the other party is packing, no matter how harmless they seem. (I will admit, it was VERY stupid of me to approach the homeless guy after he crumpled...but I can't help being somewhat compassionate lol. I COULD potentially have gotten shanked though.) Basically, Blast their retinas, Pick a direction, and Haul your booty down the street in such a way to make yourself a tiny (or disappearing) target. Any light can be used tactically, though some lights may be more durable and desirable because they were designed for abuse.


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## ledmitter_nli (Jun 4, 2012)

dc38 said:


> Hey flashlight nut! I suppose my statement was misinterpreted to some extent. I didn't mean to spark a feud of any sort, it was just a passing comment about SOME cops being bullies and stupid. I apologize if i offended you in any way, but you shouldn't feel offended. My statement applies to some local cops around me who think they know everything. To recount an occurrence: a cop pulls over next to me at the bus stop and ask what i'm doing there. I tell him I'm waiting for the bus. He keeps asking me as to where I'm going, so i ask him if he has any reason to be questioning me like he is doing. He says he "don't need no reason to know your business". I replied that if i'm not under suspicion for anything or being detained, I'd appreciate if he would go on his merry way, because he's blocking the bus stop. He pulls his car into the parking lot behind me (shopping complex) and gets out of the car and approaches me and tells me to drop my bag. I tell him i don't consent to any unlawful searches and question him again as to why he's stopping me and if i'm free to go about my business. I point to the bus, which is now right next to us at the bus stop, and the driver is willing to wait because he recognizes me. I tell him to go on because he's a stickler for schedules. Anyways, the cop decides to grab my arm as i'm telling the driver to go, and whips me back around. (at this point i would like to yell in his face). He takes my bag and rifles through it and finds...nothing. I ask if he knows he is in serious violation for an unlawful search, and he raises his voice that i have no rights. He then drops my bag and proceeds to take my prized Klarus out of my pocket, again, without my permission. Dumbass shines the thing in his face and says, why are you carrying a weapon? At this point, another patrol car is passing by, and i flag them down. They come over and the first cop says, this kid is carrying a potentially dangerous weapon. (basically, they agreed that it potentially COULD be used to blind passing motorists, or as a kubaton) I was like, SERIOUSLY? The other cop agrees with this first moron, and tweedle dee and tweedle dum cuff me and stick me in the back of one of the cars and radio in for whatever reason. Needless to say, they HAD to let me go, as I was in violation of NO laws. I filed a complaint with the local station as well as the mayor's office, but in retrospect, I should've reported it to the news. So long story short, I'm just saying that there are SOME stupid cops around who are *#$(&*#!&**. Disregarding that, Flashlight nut, almost all other cops are professional and courteous, including NY's Finest. I have a few cops who are quite close friends, and never in a million years would i call them stupid.



Should of asked to see a sergeant (blue wings) or speak to a lieutenant. Or next time tell them that you're going to wake up your lawyer then proceed to file a civil harassment suit against them.


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## dc38 (Jun 4, 2012)

ledmitter_nli said:


> Should of asked to see a sergeant (blue wings) or speak to a lieutenant. Or next time tell them that you're going to wake up your lawyer and file a civil harassment suit against them.



Thanks NLI! I'll keep that in my mind for next time. It just bothered me at the time, but I hold no grudge. If it happens again, I'll do just that 

Welcome to CPF!


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## ledmitter_nli (Jun 4, 2012)

dc38 said:


> Thanks NLI! I'll keep that in my mind for next time. It just bothered me at the time, but I hold no grudge. If it happens again, I'll do just that
> 
> Welcome to CPF!



I think the majority of officers are hero's, they genuinely are interested in bringing down the scumbags and looking out for the good people. These good people could be their very own, wives, children, neighbors. Just listening to the radio would tune you in to this fact. For instance, a suicidal woman crying on a pay phone calls 911 for help and the dispatcher puts out the call. The police arrive at the location but she wasn't there. Listening to the radio chatter pick up you can tell they where genuinely concerned for her well being (either that or they didn't want her to throw herself in front of a car killing her, and, the occupants :shakehead). Other officers pooled and started canvassing for her...

Or the perp in a long coat in warm weather banging on a someones door. The network lights up and the units go literally "balls to the wall" (thanks TEEJ! ) as if it was their own family being threatened.

Makes me want to join the academy myself.

If only I wasn't so short


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## ikeyballz (Jun 5, 2012)

This is slightly still off topic, but yes LEOs get a lot of grief for the bad apples. Don't judge em all based on the bad ones, but go after the bad ones (legally) when you can to make the force better overall! 

All my experiences with LEOs have shown me MOST of them are very respectful and polite - but of course not all are. I've had my run ins with a few power-tripping ones too.


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## flashlight nut (Jun 5, 2012)

Thanks for the kind sentiments dc38 and everyone else. Again, I would like to apologize to all of you for derailing the thread with my rants and to fyrstormer, who I may have been a little too hard on. If it makes you feel any better, I too have been harassed by a few cops when I was younger. In my late teens and early twenties I lost count how many times my car was tossed and I was patted down for apparently no reason since I never got charged with anything. Even as an LEO occasionally I get major attitude from my brethren but 99.9% try real hard to do the right thing day in and day out.
All right, enough hugs and swapping spit. Back on topic.


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## ledmitter_nli (Jun 5, 2012)

flashlight nut said:


> Thanks for the kind sentiments dc38 and everyone else. Again, I would like to apologize to all of you for derailing the thread with my rants and to fyrstormer, who I may have been a little too hard on. If it makes you feel any better, I too have been harassed by a few cops when I was younger. In my late teens and early twenties I lost count how many times my car was tossed and I was patted down for apparently no reason since I never got charged with anything. Even as an LEO occasionally I get major attitude from my brethren but 99.9% try real hard to do the right thing day in and day out.
> All right, enough hugs and swapping spit. Back on topic.



flashlight_nut, incoming PM.


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## fyrstormer (Jun 5, 2012)

There is no point in me giving a full-length explanation at this point, so I'll just say: my opinion of the police is not the result of being young and discontented -- in fact my job as a consultant for a defense contractor makes me pretty well invested in the status-quo -- instead it is the result of consistently having negative experiences with the police, including when I was the victim. I go out of my way to be helpful or at least unobtrusive, which I guess makes me look suspicious. It's easy to say my experiences were outliers, but when _all_ of my experiences are supposedly outliers, that excuse rings hollow.

One specific post I want to address: fishndad, I was not the kid who teased other kids on the playground and then hid behind the teachers. I was the kid who got harassed as a sport almost every day, and the teachers occasionally joined in when they were sufficiently amused. The typical response from the administrators was to tell me to "stop attracting negative attention." So, not quite the same as you surmised.

I'm done here; have a nice thread.


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## TEEJ (Jun 5, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> There is no point in me giving a full-length explanation at this point, so I'll just say: my opinion of the police is not the result of being young and discontented -- in fact my job as a consultant for a defense contractor makes me pretty well invested in the status-quo -- instead it is the result of consistently having negative experiences with the police, including when I was the victim. *I go out of my way to be helpful or at least unobtrusive, which I guess makes me look suspicious.* It's easy to say my experiences were outliers, but when *all of my experiences are supposedly outliers*, that excuse rings hollow.
> 
> One specific post I want to address: fishndad, I was not the kid who teased other kids on the playground and then hid behind the teachers. *I was the kid who got harassed as a sport almost every day*, and the *teachers occasionally joined in* when they were sufficiently amused. The typical response from the administrators was to *tell me to "stop attracting negative attention*." So, not quite the same as you surmised.
> 
> I'm done here; have a nice thread.



Hmmmm.

I DO see where the problem lies. 

The evidence points to a particular personal attribute that leads to this sort of thing. Very unfortunate. Fyrstormer, please, be careful out there, and condolences. 

I HATE bullies, and, wish I had been there when you had been harassed. You would NOT have been when I was there. 

-------------------------------------------------


So, yeah, the tactical value of a light for a trained concealed carry situation is very high. It gives options you wouldn't otherwise have. A Non-Tactical UI, in a tactical scenario, is a hindrance, and a potential liability in a SHTF scenario.


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## fishndad (Jun 5, 2012)

I do appolagize for refering to you as antagonistec and the situation you describe at the bus stop would **** off anyone.
I hope you can forgive my careless uninformed comment.


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## dc38 (Jun 5, 2012)

fishndad said:


> I do appolagize for refering to you as antagonistec and the situation you describe at the bus stop would **** off anyone.
> I hope you can forgive my careless uninformed comment.



I was more afraid to lose my flashlight than i was pissed off lol...it was very inconvenient and annoying at the very least. I just think that I'll be sorry for someone else for not filing some kind of complaint against this guy...Let's hope the next person he antagonizes has less tolerance and the knowledge to do as NLI instructed me


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## TEEJ (Jun 5, 2012)

TRAINING is so important. Especially when - as a profession - LEO are so under the microscope/gun at the same time. ANYONE can have a bad day/slip up and let someone "have it" verbally or even physically if buttons are pushed.

Its never condoned of course, but, its like medical malpractice. Everyone knows a doctor is a human being, and that humans err. BUT, if they DO make a mistake, they do NOT "get away with it". They are raked over the coals, and drawn and quartered in court. (Drawn and Courted?)

In some professions, you are not allowed to make a mistake, ever, period. This is of course unrealistic, and yet, is the reality of it.


My feeling is that people who choose such a profession MUST know where the bar is, and how high it is. 

To that end, there are people who check on the activity around that bar, and see if anyone tried to sneak under it. These people who pass the bar are called lawyers. They get money from the ones who go under the bar, and give 60% of it to the people who set the bar the guy went under.


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## zenbeam (Jun 5, 2012)

TEEJ said:


> NOTHING always works 100% of the time. Real life is like that. What deters one guy infuriates another, and so forth. What IS consistent though, is the TENDENCY for conflicts involving potential victimization to deescalate when the attacker perceives the victim as potentially aware of his surroundings/harder to take by surprise, and/or when the target shows evidence of also being potentially capable of counter measures/potential danger to the attacker.
> 
> Just because you HAVE a gun doesn't mean you have to use it. Just because you have a light doesn't mean you have to use it. Both give you options though you would not have without them. You just need to be able to choose what is appropriate for the situation.
> 
> ...



There goes that nail on the head! I think TEEJ truly is a carpenter!

When I replied earlier in this thread and mentioned having a background in martial arts training and not wanting to carry a concealed weapon (handgun) - I also referenced "situational awareness" and what I was trying to say was that the training heightened my situational awareness and as a result, I am less likely to need to defend myself. I could probably write a couple of paragraphs going on about that, but TEEJ has succinctly summarized the meat of the meaning.

Anyone and everyone can and will benefit, from a self defense standpoint (and in many other unforeseen ways), by carrying themselves in the manner TEEJ described. I'm sure many of you know this is common advice from LEO or other safety minded organizations to civilians, but take it seriously. Carry yourself like you are prepared and if you carry something with you, let the confidence in knowing that you have it and can use it show in your demeanor - and it will. Appear confident, not cocky. Feel capable and others will sense it.

And also... use your instincts. Yes, instincts. If an area or place doesn't "feel" right, it isn't. Don't go there. If a group of people or a person seems odd or gives you a "weird" feeling, even makes you feel scared... you are! Don't laugh... you should pay attention to yourself and get out of there. 

Be the ball.


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## ledmitter_nli (Jun 5, 2012)

^^^ Yup. Situational awareness and getting off the X will keep you out of most iffy situations.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?336718


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## ledmitter_nli (Jun 6, 2012)

For those interested in additional reading about defensive applications for flashlights (with pro's and some con's)

*P**OLICE Magazine* - *How to Use a Strobing Flashlight - Article*
http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2010/06/How-to-Use-a-Strobing-Flashlight.aspx
http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Pa.../How-to-Use-a-Strobing-Flashlight/Page/2.aspx







(The pic of the attacker blinded by a bright light actually came from this PoliceMag article)

_"When those who have no life are no longer being fed and cared for by Uncle Sugar, they will roam the streets looking for victims to feed upon. We already see the vacant glassy eyes staring out at us from those who have lost the will to live."_

Zombies!


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## prof student (Jun 16, 2012)

So, out of curiosity, what all does everyone carry (flashlight wise) for this purpose?


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## ledmitter_nli (Jun 16, 2012)

prof student said:


> So, out of curiosity, what all does everyone carry (flashlight wise) for this purpose?



Something with at least 2,000 lumens. Enough to *force* someone to yield looking anywhere within its cone (at near range).


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## lightfooted (Jun 16, 2012)

prof student said:


> So, out of curiosity, what all does everyone carry (flashlight wise) for this purpose?



Usually my Surefire C2 modded with XM-L emitter and 17670 or my newly acquired SWM V11R.


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## flashlight nut (Jun 16, 2012)

prof student said:


> So, out of curiosity, what all does everyone carry (flashlight wise) for this purpose?



A Surefire LX2 clipped inside my front pocket for a true momentary only UI with an HDS 170T clipped to my belt for back up and general use. Both oppossite side to my firearm. FYI, even if you don't carry a firearm the flashlight should be deployed and operated with opposite hand for defensive purposes.


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## Xacto (Jun 16, 2012)

Surefire G2X for the 200lumen brightness, Surefire 6PD with Wolf Eyes Dropin, well... for everything else.

Cheers
Thorsten


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## jamesb (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm running a Fenix PD31 light on my custom build I did. 







James please resize your image to no larger than 800 X 800 pixels - Norm

EDIT: Resized photo


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