# Idiot busted lasering landing planes



## gorn (Jun 16, 2009)

Here is a neat video of Washington State Troopers catching an idiot that had been hitting planes with a green laser while trying to land in Seattle.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bd3_1245182005

Hope the guy gets locked up for a long time.


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## allthatwhichis (Jun 16, 2009)

Looks like that guy must have gotten fired on his day off twice...


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## Optik49 (Jun 16, 2009)

_Great teamwork! :thumbsup:_


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## Vinniec5 (Jun 16, 2009)

AHH Thermal night vision is the coolest of all the night scopes. Reminds me of Blue Thunder. Moron doesn't even realize he's screwed LOL until the 2am knock on the door


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## Illum (Jun 16, 2009)

hes lucky it isn't a military aircraft...
some helicopters have laser trackers to take out enemy front observers trying to point their lasers at them. It only takes awhile for the turret to learn the angle and azimuth before we have our first ground casualty


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## MarNav1 (Jun 16, 2009)

Dunderheads! I like a cool laser as much as the next guy but seriously doesn't the dummy know he could kill somebody? Stupid is as stupid does. :shakehead:scowl:


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## spearsniper (Jun 17, 2009)

Its worrying to see that this trend is catching on - in New Zealand this time.
I do like the fact that the paper has published this idiots photo, name, and age.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2493522/Aeroplane-laser-light-culprit-named






Vladimir Maricic


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## dudu84 (Jun 17, 2009)

Does anyone know or can estimate if the laser he used is 5mW or 200mW type? If it's 200mW then I'd blame the Chinese manufacturers for creating these kinda of products and have it sold to general public. Imagine some kids have it (took from his elder brothers?) and just pointing it randomly to people's eyes or some idiots pointing them at the planes (like this guy did) :sigh:. It should be banned from being mass produced in the first place :shakehead


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## Alaric Darconville (Jun 17, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> If it's 200mW then I'd blame the Chinese manufacturers for creating these kinda of products and have it sold to general public.
> 
> It should be banned from being mass produced in the first place :shakehead



That's like blaming GM for having windows in a car that roll down, facilitating drive-by shootings.

Blame the user. The misuser. The abuser. Don't blame the manufacturer.


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## Illum (Jun 17, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> Does anyone know or can estimate if the laser he used is 5mW or 200mW type? If it's 200mW then I'd blame the Chinese manufacturers for creating these kinda of products and have it sold to general public. Imagine some kids have it (took from his elder brothers?) and just pointing it randomly to people's eyes or some idiots pointing them at the planes (like this guy did) :sigh:. It should be banned from being mass produced in the first place :shakehead



There is no way to accurately tell power from looking at photos... a 5mw in heavy fog will easily look equivalent to a 50mw in clear mountain air. As to determining the power I don't think it would've mattered, a laser aimed at an aircraft is a violation regardless of its power. 

Take care to note that not all 200+mws are created by china, in fact certain regulations are already banning the import of foreign lasers above 5mw

Whether it should be banned is a matter of politics once it gets down to personal preferences, and usually politics arent discussed in the public forum. Should you wish to voice your opinion I'd suggest posting another thread in the laser subforum and hopefully it'll bear a very productive discussion...or if you want to real dirt, check out the wine celler:thumbsup:


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## alpg88 (Jun 17, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> Does anyone know or can estimate if the laser he used is 5mW or 200mW type? If it's 200mW then I'd blame the Chinese manufacturers for creating these kinda of products and have it sold to general public. Imagine some kids have it (took from his elder brothers?) and just pointing it randomly to people's eyes or some idiots pointing them at the planes (like this guy did) :sigh:. It should be banned from being mass produced in the first place :shakehead



sure , and ban forks and spoons too while you're at it, why not? they make ppl fat.


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## dudu84 (Jun 17, 2009)

EDITed: nvm, don't wanna go down the "politics" road 



Illum said:


> Take care to note that not all 200+mws are created by china, in fact certain regulations are already banning the import of foreign lasers above 5mw



But I do think the low price is the major reason for many ppl to buy it easily. I think if a 200mW costs ~$200-$300, people will still buy if they really need it (military? measurement equipments?) but the chance of it being misused is much lower


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## dudu84 (Jun 17, 2009)

alpg88 said:


> sure , and ban forks and spoons too while you're at it, why not? they make ppl fat.



Do "most" people need to eat and the forks/spoons make this process easier for them? YES

Do "many" people have a legitimate reason for a high-powered laser? NO, probably a small number does. My point is invalid if that guy only used a 5mW laser because it is very useful for stuff like presentations (I used it a lot too)


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## RyanA (Jun 17, 2009)

The point is not giving politicians permission to legislate away our rights because of the actions of a very small group of idiots.


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## alpg88 (Jun 18, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> Do "many" people have a legitimate reason for a high-powered laser? NO, :



well the thing is it isn,t for you to decide, or even care, i don't have to have a need or legitimate reason to have something i want. it is called freedom.
do you have legitimate reason to post on any board? have a computer? tv? not according to your logic, can you live without it? yes. lets ban it too. you don't need it.


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## Illum (Jun 18, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> But I do think the low price is the major reason for many ppl to buy it easily. I think if a 200mW costs ~$200-$300, people will still buy if they really need it



For those that are rich enough and ambitious enough, neither price nor regulation is a concern. Its part of a mindset, once a product is acquired its illegitimate usefulness is then exploited, often for sake of personal entertainment. 

Most of us amateur astronomers work with 5mw to 40mw greens...with at least one discontinued member owning a Hercules 500mw "for the heck of it"
What does he do with it when hes not stargazing? pointing a cell towers some for miles down range and supposedly "shot" down a couple birds:shakehead


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## dudu84 (Jun 18, 2009)

alpg88 said:


> well the thing is it isn,t for you to decide, or even care, i don't have to have a need or legitimate reason to have something i want. it is called freedom.
> do you have legitimate reason to post on any board? have a computer? tv? not according to your logic, can you live without it? yes. lets ban it too. you don't need it.



I believe that when living in a "society", what's so called "freedom" is never absolutely free (hence the laws and justice?).
Therefore, just as much as some people want their human rights to do whatever they want, the others want their rights to live peace, to be protected. 

It's true that it's not for me to decide but "coincidentally", that "freedom" allows me to state my opinions just like you voiced yours.

As a matter of fact, I do care because I don't want myself/ my family/friends/pets(/flashlights?) to be in a situation where the aircraft carrying them just "happens" to have problem with landing (or any other immediate dangers) as some idiots are targeting it with their lasers. 

And actually you missed my earlier point, things like forks/spoons/pcs/internet/.. are appropriate needs because they can increase the quality of people's lives in some ways (well, to more than just "some" people anyway), while a high-powered laser is only good for a small number of individuals.

Perhaps going through an engineering degree has significantly affected my points of view but my (Yes, "MY") rule #1 is: Safety always comes first.


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## dudu84 (Jun 18, 2009)

Illum said:


> For those that are rich enough and ambitious enough, neither price nor regulation is a concern. Its part of a mindset, once a product is acquired its illegitimate usefulness is then exploited, often for sake of personal entertainment.
> 
> Most of us amateur astronomers work with 5mw to 40mw greens...with at least one discontinued member owning a Hercules 500mw "for the heck of it"
> What does he do with it when hes not stargazing? pointing a cell towers some for miles down range and supposedly "shot" down a couple birds:shakehead



Thanks for pointing that out Illum. I think the higher price will probably help, for example:

Probability(who can afford pricey laser) x Probability(who is idiotic) << Probability(who can afford cheap laser) x Probability(who is idiotic)

Just for fun


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## alpg88 (Jun 18, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> As a matter of fact, I do care because I don't want myself/ my family/friends/pets(/flashlights?) to be in a situation where the aircraft carrying them just "happens" to have problem with landing (or any other immediate dangers) as some idiots are targeting it with their lasers.
> 
> .



than outlaw and ban idiots, not lasers.

btw, you aren't the only one with engeenering degree, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand


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## dudu84 (Jun 18, 2009)

alpg88 said:


> than outlaw and ban idiots, not lasers.



Just wondering, have you ever thought about banning thieves (or the like)?



alpg88 said:


> btw, you aren't the only one wit engeenering degree, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand



Wit? I was very serious in that post and yes, my degree definitely influences my way of thinking. My entire argument on this matter is about safety


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## alpg88 (Jun 18, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> Wit? I was very serious in that post and yes, my degree definitely influences my way of thinking. My entire argument on this matter is about safety



the entire argumernt is on the matter of criminal behavior, but you make it about exsistance and avalibuility of the object that is not a threat, or even hazard when used correctly.


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## RyanA (Jun 18, 2009)

Not to discount your argument, but this is what I see as the primary point.



dudu84 said:


> while a high-powered laser is only good for a small number of individuals.



On this note, the number of people actually pointing lasers at aircraft is very small. Probably a decimal percentage of people who actually own high powered lasers. And that's not to say that the people who are doing this are even using a high powered laser. It could be just as easily if not more easily done with a 5mw or a pot modded laser.
To me the idea that we should impose on the property rights of a minority (let's say high power laser owners) because of the misconduct of an even smaller minority (let's just be honest and call them idiots) who may not even be part of the first; I think this is an over-reaction.


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## sylathnie (Jun 18, 2009)

I don't normally get into political discussions but I have a short comment.
Its illegal to point a laser at an aircraft. He broke a law. He probably knew he was breaking it.

Let's hypothesize that >5mW lasers become illegal.

Now ask yourself, would he have broken two laws?


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## instinct (Jun 18, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> Does anyone know or can estimate if the laser he used is 5mW or 200mW type? If it's 200mW then I'd blame the Chinese manufacturers for creating these kinda of products and have it sold to general public. Imagine some kids have it (took from his elder brothers?) and just pointing it randomly to people's eyes or some idiots pointing them at the planes (like this guy did) :sigh:. It should be banned from being mass produced in the first place :shakehead




Let's just ban everything that could potentially hurt someone.


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## dudu84 (Jun 18, 2009)

alpg88 said:


> the entire argumernt is on the matter of criminal behavior, but you make it about exsistance and avalibuility of the object that is not a threat, or even hazard when used correctly.



How is taking precautionary steps to reduce unnecessary risks, by relating to existing criminal behaviors, not about safety? 



dudu84 said:


> Do "many" people have a legitimate reason for a high-powered laser? NO, probably a small number does. My point is invalid if that guy only used a 5mW laser because it is very useful for stuff like presentations (I used it a lot too)



*Please reread my above post before trashing my arguments*

It seems my points were not clear enough for some ppl so let me summarize them:
1. To most people, a *high-powered* laser does not serve any real purposes/ urgent needs. 
2. It is potentially dangerous (will be a threat when misused) 

Both of these should be considered together.



RyanA said:


> It could be just as easily if not more easily done with a 5mw or a pot modded laser.



I also considered that a possibility so I was only focusing on high-powered lasers when saying it should be banned . 
However, if it's the 5mW laser used in the video, imagine *40 times* that intensity pointing directly at your eyes while piloting an aircraft


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## RyanA (Jun 18, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> How is taking precautionary steps to reduce unnecessary risks, by relating to existing criminal behaviors, not about safety?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As far as potential danger anything can be dangerous when misused, take a car for example. How would you aussies feel if we took away your vee-bloody-eights? (Just kidding, I love V-8's. Are they still making the Commodore there. There's no more G-8 here, since no more Pontiac)

As far as the intensity thing I suppose I agree with you there, but I would rather see laws advocating responsible marketing. Back to cars for example, I'd bet there are a lot of youngsters killed each year due to irresponsible marketing of motorcycles and sports cars. Far more than are killed by lasers, even if the most potentially catastrophic set of circumstances (some doof bringing down a plane or heli) did occur.

I guess I'm just concerned about citizens bargaining away their rights too easily or frivolously. Heck, the American government was pretty much designed as a deterrent to change, and to make things worse, I'm from Rhode Island, a state that was once so hyper-conservative that it had to be forced to ratify the constitution (no joke, RI was the last state in the union to ratify the constitution, and if not for pressure from the other states it may have never). It's in my blood.


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## allthatwhichis (Jun 18, 2009)

I have to comment on this; _I_ have a 1 watt RGB laser sitting next to me. It is on and being used... I know many people who have high powered lasers who use them responsibly. I mean HIGH POWER; 10s of Watts. :candle: I see no reason to ban lasers for "personal" use; maybe a need to have a license to own them, but not ban outright. :scowl:


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## RyanA (Jun 18, 2009)

And again with cars, lets say a 500hp sports car. Legal, yes, but does it have a practical legal use? Let's be honest, no. Maybe as a track car, but lets face it it has no reason to be on the street. I would assert that these are far more dangerous than a 500mw laser. Why not ban these, or just ban all cheap horsepower, the WRX's, the Mustang GT's, you name it. Now I love sports cars, and I would hate to see this happen, but I also know that it will likely never happen.

Same thing with smoking or drinking, dangerous to ourselves and others. But do I or anyone else have the right to say, "HEY, you, you can't do that."? It's ok to say perhaps "Don't smoke near me." But to outright ban another person from doing it? It will never happen, because both sports cars and smokes and cigs have too large a popular inertia behind them. They won't succumb to scare tactics and demogougery. 
What we are actually talking about is attacking the right to own a particular item because we can get away with it, because it's not popular.


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## dudu84 (Jun 18, 2009)

RyanA said:


> As far as potential danger anything can be dangerous when misused, take a car for example. How would you aussies feel if we took away your vee-bloody-eights?


I, like most people, can make good use of a powerful engine (my point 1), who can't? 



RyanA said:


> And again with cars, lets say a 500hp sports car. Legal, yes, but does it have a practical legal use? Let's be honest, no. Maybe as a track car, but lets face it it has no reason to be on the street. I would assert that these are far more dangerous than a 500mw laser. Why not ban these, or just ban all cheap horsepower, the WRX's, the Mustang GT's, you name it. Now I love sports cars, and I would hate to see this happen, but I also know that it will likely never happen.



IMO, the unbalance of pros & cons (again, to most people) of a widely-available high-powered laser is clearly incomparable with things like cars and other everyday stuff. 
All those fancy cars however are also useful for normal drives (when not racing/drifting/etc) :laughing:



RyanA said:


> I guess I'm just concerned about citizens bargaining away their rights too easily or frivolously. Heck, the American government was pretty much designed as a deterrent to change, and to make things worse, I'm from Rhode Island, a state that was once so hyper-conservative that it had to be forced to ratify the constitution (no joke, RI was the last state in the union to ratify the constitution, and if not for pressure from the other states it may have never). It's in my blood.



This smells so politics and I think I better stay out of it :banned:, You got me:lolsign:





RyanA said:


> Are they still making the Commodore there



Holden declared that its business still going strong after GM went bankrupt, what's happening internally? Only time will tell , sorry I don't have any inside info for you but I do hope they can survive the recession. 




allthatwhichis said:


> I have to comment on this; _I_ have a 1 watt RGB laser sitting next to me. It is on and being used... I know many people who have high powered lasers who use them responsibly. I mean HIGH POWER; 10s of Watts. :candle: I see no reason to ban lasers for "personal" use; maybe a need to have a license to own them, but not ban outright. :scowl:



Thanks for your comment *allthatwhichis*, I seemed to have drifted away from my original point after some arguments: I originally meant the mass-production of high-powered laser should be banned, not the laser itself.:thanks:.


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## RyanA (Jun 18, 2009)

Figures, we get the Commodore here for what, a year? The way it's going, if we ever actually do get the Falcon here it will be for the entirety of one week before Ford decides to declare chapter 11.

I don't see the car issue and the laser issue as too dissimilar however, as long as we are talking about putting quantifiable limits on power. There is actually something like this in Japan, although I'm not certain it's an actual law, or if anyone bothers to enforce it. 
With a high horsepower car in most cases using all of its power could be considered exhibition of speed, even if the speed limit is not broken. And to be honest, if we are abiding the speed limits, the time in which we arrive at the destination would be no different, even with the acceleration difference between a 200 and 500 hp car of equal mass. I also assert that it one could more easily and with more frequent occurrence kill another accidentally with a high power car than one could purposefully kill another with a high power laser.


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## dudu84 (Jun 19, 2009)

RyanA said:


> I don't see the car issue and the laser issue as too dissimilar however, as long as we are talking about putting quantifiable limits on power. There is actually something like this in Japan, although I'm not certain it's an actual law, or if anyone bothers to enforce it.
> With a high horsepower car in most cases using all of its power could be considered exhibition of speed, even if the speed limit is not broken. And to be honest, if we are abiding the speed limits, the time in which we arrive at the destination would be no different, even with the acceleration difference between a 200 and 500 hp car of equal mass. I also assert that it one could more easily and with more frequent occurrence kill another accidentally with a high power car than one could purposefully kill another with a high power laser.



A faster acceleration can help drivers avoid collisions on their tails when joining traffic on freeway! OK, that was far-fetched . I admit you have a very good point about excessive power/accelerations a car can have but don't forget that's the limit of the vehicle, it can operate any where within its specs and in certain situations, its upper limit might prove useful. (there's no speed limit on the Autobahn in Germany btw). 

A vehicle carries great potential threats to the public, that's why it's properly controlled by the government: registration and driver license are required to operate it. 

Besides, a 200mW laser can cost only $40 (from China), anyone can buy it, but a car is different not only its cost is way higher and the driver is aware of their safety when they use it. You can't really inflict serious damages without taking some damage on your own vehicle &/or yourself (action and reaction forces) whilst with a high-powered laser in your hand, you can "silently" go for the kills :devil:.


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## RyanA (Jun 19, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> A faster acceleration can help drivers avoid collisions on their tails when joining traffic on freeway! OK, that was far-fetched . I admit you have a very good point about excessive power/accelerations a car can have but don't forget that's the limit of the vehicle, it can operate any where within its specs and in certain situations, its upper limit might prove useful. (there's no speed limit on the Autobahn in Germany btw).
> 
> A vehicle carries great potential threats to the public, that's why it's properly controlled by the government: registration and driver license are required to operate it.
> 
> Besides, a 200mW laser can cost only $40 (from China), anyone can buy it, but a car is different not only its cost is way higher and the driver is aware of their safety when they use it. You can't really inflict serious damages without taking some damage on your own vehicle &/or yourself (action and reaction forces) whilst with a high-powered laser in your hand, you can "silently" go for the kills :devil:.


 
Adhesion limits are primarily determined by the tires rather than the vehicle. This is why certain 0-60 barriers (3s) are nearly impenetrable even with drastic decreases in mass and increases in power. Thus a car can only be made so safe, even with all the wonderful do-dads, the rest is up to the driver. Limits of the vehicle and driver should be considered separate.
Just about anyone can get a drivers license, but I'd say 500hp is too much car for many of those people (300 is probably too much for many). Although the price of admittance for a laser is cheaper than a car, The amount of power available for the dollar is plenty impressive. Also nearly everyone here in the US has a car. The same cannot be said for lasers. So clearly everyone is not out buying high power lasers simply because they can be had in abundance. On the other hand high power per dollar cars can be seen in every town in the United States. 
It is also unfair to say that these "scholarly" misusers of laser diodes walk away unpunished, they clearly do not. In fact due to the beam characteristics (and personal characteristics :laughing:; let's face it, the few who do lase planes or helis, do it because they're too ignorant to know better) of say a 200mw green they probably stand less of a chance of escape than a hit and run driver. Furthermore a high power car might actually provide advantage in evading police, where a laser would only give the suspect away


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## Patriot (Jun 19, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> But I do think the low price is the major reason for many ppl to buy it easily. I think if a 200mW costs ~$200-$300, people will still buy if they really need it (military? measurement equipments?) but the chance of it being misused is much lower





Swell logic man. I won't even bother digging into the flaws of your reasoning. 



In any case, the perpetrator of this crime has no regard for others and I hope he got busted hard.


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## dudu84 (Jun 19, 2009)

RyanA said:


> Adhesion limits are primarily determined by the tires rather than the vehicle. This is why certain 0-60 barriers (3s) are nearly impenetrable even with drastic decreases in mass and increases in power. Thus a car can only be made so safe, even with all the wonderful do-dads, the rest is up to the driver. Limits of the vehicle and driver should be considered separate.
> Just about anyone can get a drivers license, but I'd say 500hp is too much car for many of those people (300 is probably too much for many). Although the price of admittance for a laser is cheaper than a car, The amount of power available for the dollar is plenty impressive. Also nearly everyone here in the US has a car. The same cannot be said for lasers. So clearly everyone is not out buying high power lasers simply because they can be had in abundance. On the other hand high dollar to power cars can be seen in every town in the United States.
> It is also unfair to say that these "scholarly" misusers of laser diodes walk away unpunished, they clearly do not. In fact due to the beam characteristics (and personal characteristics :laughing:; let's face it, the few who do lase planes or helis, do it because they're too ignorant to know better) of say a 200mw green they probably stand less of a chance of escape than a hit and run driver. Furthermore a high power car might actually provide advantage in evading police, where a laser would only give the suspect away



Let's not get carried away with the hp cars stuff , I get your point about the similarity of a hp car and a high-powered laser but there are things that make them inherently different I'd like to reemphasize:

1. -A high-powered laser is easily obtained at a small price, whether buyers have any knowledge/experience about its hazards MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. To most ppl, it's a toy, anyone can just buy it, play with it and throw away whenever they want. SIMPLE
-On the other hand, a vehicle (hp or not) can be legally used only by those who have been tested to meet certain requirements. Basically, they are educated about what they are into. Furthermore, besides the cost of the vehicle, drivers have to go through actual trouble to register/purchase and become responsible for it. NOT SO SIMPLE

2. The feedback when causing damages
-Drivers know if they crash their vehicles, they'll probably get hurt &/or get into trouble with police or similar stuff. Even if someone isn't afraid of dealing with law enforcements, sane people (idiots or not) probably does not want to get hurt hence it's very likely that when they perform reckless/dangerous drivings, they still try to avoid unnecessary damages.
ACTION & REACTION (usually)

-A laser user does not experience pains when causing damages to other people (unless they shine it directly at a mirror which reflects right back to their eyes and make they go blind). They probably think it's not easy to track down where the laser comes from if only turned on for a couple of seconds. Some might go "just for fun, it doesn't hurt anyway" and start pointing at something far away (until they realize the polices will be knocking their doors in a moment, or perhaps next time, or never?). This is what I meant by "silently". 
ACTION & possibly REACTION 

The discussion has dragged on much longer than I wanted, and when it comes to freedom/ human rights, it probably won't end up well since we all have different ideas of what's ideal and what's not. 
It's Friday night here! Adiós!


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## yellow (Jun 19, 2009)

deciding _something_ has to be banned, just because one has no need for it ... thats the start for fascism
WHO is the one to decide?

A law was broken, 
one guy gets a slight clap on the butt, 
done


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## alpg88 (Jun 19, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> A faster acceleration can help drivers avoid collisions on their tails when joining traffic on freeway! OK, that was far-fetched . I admit you have a very good point about excessive power/accelerations a car can have but don't forget that's the limit of the vehicle, it can operate any where within its specs and in certain situations, its upper limit might prove useful. (there's no speed limit on the Autobahn in Germany btw).
> 
> A vehicle carries great potential threats to the public, that's why it's properly controlled by the government: registration and driver license are required to operate it.
> 
> Besides, a 200mW laser can cost only $40 (from China), anyone can buy it, but a car is different not only its cost is way higher and the driver is aware of their safety when they use it. You can't really inflict serious damages without taking some damage on your own vehicle &/or yourself (action and reaction forces) whilst with a high-powered laser in your hand, you can "silently" go for the kills :devil:.



lol, FAIL. starting from acceleration, ending with cost of cars.

there is realy no point debating with you. bye bye. lmao


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## alpg88 (Jun 19, 2009)

allthatwhichis said:


> I see no reason to ban lasers for "personal" use; maybe a need to have a license to own them, but not ban outright. :scowl:



i respectfully disagree.
what if an idiot shines a 1500lm light at oncoming traffic from a side of the highway, i garranty there will be a crash sooner or later (while not a single plane or helicopter crashed due to lasers), so what do we do than? make ppl get a permit for every light that is above 20lm???


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## Gunnerboy (Jun 19, 2009)

No one's been busted yet. These incidents have been going on for a few months now up here in Seattle (Sea-Tac Airport). Last month, our State Patrol brought in one dude for questioning, but then released him. They've pin-pointed the origins to a few city blocks.

The concern is there are copycats doing this now. I seem to hear of a new incident every other week.


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## Patriot (Jun 19, 2009)

At the power levels and distances we're talking about these devices are not a serious threat. A pilot is more likely to get dazzled by a bright ground reflection in day light or the reflection off of another aircraft. The difference is that those events are random and unavoidable whereas lasers being shined are intentional. Any one who is intentionally distracting equipment and vehicle operators whether with a bathroom mirror in the day time or laser by night ought to get busted hard. It's common sense. It's also common sense that we don't regulate bathroom mirrors and lasers but instead catch and prosecute the idiots perpetrating the crime. The regulation of devices is moronic to say the least and to say more, it doesn't work. DC gun laws with relation to gun crime is just one minute example which attests to that fact. 

Just because no one in Seattle has actually been busted yet doesn't automatically default to the notion that something has to be regulated or controlled. It simply means that enforcement hasn't been addressed properly or efficiently. Obviously, we've all learned from the video that it takes about 1 second to pinpoint the source when someone is looking for it with the proper detection equipment. It seems pretty standard to me, a stabilized thermal camera, something that many police helo's are equipped with already.


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## dudu84 (Jun 20, 2009)

alpg88 said:


> lol, FAIL. starting from acceleration, ending with cost of cars.
> 
> there is realy no point debating with you. bye bye. lmao



If you didn't realize it yet, I wasn't serious with the acceleration part but for the rest, I don't think I was so far from the truth. 




alpg88 said:


> what if an idiot shines a 1500lm light at oncoming traffic from a side of the highway, i garranty there will be a crash sooner or later (while not a single plane or helicopter crashed due to lasers), so what do we do than? make ppl get a permit for every light that is above 20lm???



I think there will probably be immediate feedback for his action: someone will quickly report to the police and try to track him down or they just stop and beat the sh.t out of that guy or shoot him right in the h**d for being such an a** (OK, that's bad from me )



Patriot said:


> Swell logic man. I won't even bother digging into the flaws of your reasoning.



I know man, I must be weird because that would have worked on me 100% . 
A red laser so powerful that can pop balloons, burn matches, focusable feature and more, ONLY ~$40, why not? <- I fell for that last year , but quickly cast it aside after seeing how non-practical and hazardous it was both for my eyes and others'. I never thought when the dot is ~4-5m away on the wall, could be so intense. If it was more expensive and more difficult to find, the thought of buying such gadget would have never crossed my mind. BTW, I did point it to the sky for a few seconds to test it out but obviously I wasn't aiming at any target  



yellow said:


> WHO is the one to decide?


So true, but I think we are only expressing ourselves here :touche:


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## dudu84 (Jun 20, 2009)

My bad for not keeping up to date. I was initially complaining that some actions should be taken regarding this incident but I did not realize certain authorities have already acted. I browsed DX website just now to check the price of the laser I bought last year, still ~$40 (I swear I wasn't planning to buy another one even if it cost $10 :mecry and I found this:

"Attention United States Customers: due to new regulations enforced by the US FDA and PayPal, orders of >5mW lasers units shipped to the United States are no longer accepted. Orders that were previously accepted and unshipped will be cancelled and refunded to customers. This affects United States orders only"

I think >5mW lasers have already been banned in many other countries but the German customs did not bother opening my package from DX last yr because it was declared as "pointer pen" and the envelop looked so cheap. Approaching the sources directly is a good practice :devil: (yes yes throw rocks at me)

Anyway, it seems I've found* certain* people who have similar ideas as mine and they are already doing something about it so I think I can stop my debates here . 
Note that I never negate the fact that lasers (200mW or 200W) can be absolutely safe in the right hands.


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## RyanA (Jun 20, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> If you didn't realize it yet, I wasn't serious with the acceleration part but for the rest, I don't think I was so far from the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not trying to be rude, but by your logic we should outlaw all items that produce more power than necessary too cheaply? I'd say the new cheapo power wagons fall right into that category. And lets face it beyond a drivers license any fool can buy one, and any fool can get a license, many do. Many people also regard cars as toys. Because of the ACTUAL dangers they pose and damages they have caused, it would make more sense to outlaw the mass production of cheap high power sports cars. 

Also I see you're saying that you don't trust your own judgment, so you'd like other people to place things outside your range of opportunity? This type of reasoning makes no sense to me.

And all these people, car accident or laser accident, probably WEREN'T thinking of consequences. Otherwise they would not be in their present situation. Gimme a break with the buzzword pseudo-philosophy bs.


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## RyanA (Jun 20, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> My bad for not keeping up to date. I was initially complaining that some actions should be taken regarding this incident but I did not realize certain authorities have already acted. I browsed DX website just now to check the price of the laser I bought last year, still ~$40 (I swear I wasn't planning to buy another one even if it cost $10 :mecry and I found this:
> 
> "Attention United States Customers: due to new regulations enforced by the US FDA and PayPal, orders of >5mW lasers units shipped to the United States are no longer accepted. Orders that were previously accepted and unshipped will be cancelled and refunded to customers. This affects United States orders only"
> 
> ...



Many of those people are also fear mongering to advance politically (Just like how it's ok for the govt to tap phones because we all might be terrorists, and before that, communists). Again, it's a very easy target. A no-brainier for politicians really. Look at what's happened to other easily stigmatized devices, the switchblade for example, was also a victim of politics. That's where all this showboating comes from with congressional hearings, for example it happened with the mafia, and then with communism, and now with steroids in baseball. It's all idiocy really, the politicians should really be leaving things up to the courts, as the hearings are just meaningless. With the exception of scaring people into giving up their rights. Not that I condone steroids and baseball, but mafia-communism? Heck yeah!..


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## dudu84 (Jun 20, 2009)

Let's just say you are right about all other points , though I doubt there's much can be done to change the regulations now.

But I gotta disagree with this:


RyanA said:


> Also I see you're saying that you don't trust your own judgment, so you'd like other people to place things outside your range of opportunity? This type of reasoning makes no sense to me.



If you have not experienced something or learned all the minute details you need about it (perhaps because it's unavailable) and you decide it's what you think it is, that's more like *pre*judgment to me. 

Before purchasing the laser, I thought it would be cool like this and can do that etc, that was my *prejudgment* because I never actually owned it and the information I obtained was not sufficient to judge it. It turned out I was wrong about its usefulness hazards etc, so I decided to avoid using it <- that's my *judgment*


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## RyanA (Jun 20, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> Let's just say you are right about all other points , though I doubt there's much can be done to change the regulations now.
> 
> But I gotta disagree with this:
> 
> ...



Judgment is good, and you made the choice that was right for you. But is it good and fair to tell another that he cannot? That's life, a person can tell another to make a decision or to learn certain things and even why. But some things are better when we make decisions, even mistakes, experience and learn on our own. It usually sticks longer that way. Trust me, those few people who've been arrested so far, they've learned.


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## dudu84 (Jun 20, 2009)

RyanA said:


> Judgment is good, and you made the choice that was right for you. But is it good and fair to tell another that he cannot? That's life, a person can tell another to make a decision or to learn certain things and even why. But some things are better when we make decisions, even mistakes, experience and learn on our own. It usually sticks longer that way. Trust me, those few people who've been arrested so far, they've learned.



You are absolutely right about that, I made my judgment but I shouldn't impose it on others :thumbsup: (we are back to human rights again btw). I also agree that clearly it's good to learn, but more importantly, at what cost (not just on oneself). 
Unfortunately, those who make the rules (gov't) are also human and when a decision is made, there are always someone unhappy. Regarding the regulations in the US, I kinda approved it (I never wanted it to be banned btw, but something a little similar) but you (like many cpfers here) are against it, that's the way it is. I guess there was never a single solution for all different problems in the first place. 

Perhaps including a note with the laser in lots of different languages stating that pointing the laser at an aircraft is a serious crime blah blah, though can't solve the problem, can either educate or turn some idiots off. Then the problem is if anyone is gonna bother reading it, maybe sticking a sticker on the laser will be more effective, some might have a go when they are bored enough lol.


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## Patriot (Jun 20, 2009)

Two important points here dudu, you've argued several times from the perspective of incurring an accident or running into a problem due to lack of experience. Well, certainly we can discuss this but keep in mind this thread is about the criminal misuse of a laser, not a lack of training or experience. Obviously no death has ever occurred from a 300mW laser and if you google search "laser caused a person to go blind" you'll see that despite their proliferation they don't seem to be a serious problem in the first place. It seems to me that your dire concern for these devices could be likened to having a phobia about the deadly effects of vegetables. Of all the things that someone could want to take issue with why not campaign against ice picks or glass beer bottles for example? While I wouldn't support such regulation I would at least understand a well do-er's misguided approach to controlling something that actually harms people. 


Currently high powered customs are still available to anyone who want's one. Even after the FDA import restrictions I've purchased a 320mW red, a 200mW violet and a 150mW green. These were all more money that what we're talking about at DX but the point is that they're available and I could have got them much cheaper had I instead purchased say...only a 150mW red for example. Why is this point important? Well, anyone seeking to break the law and intentionally shine lasers at aircraft or motorists still can. The FDA enforcement that you're in joyful support over effectively does nothing to impede a buyer who wants one. Even if no laser over 5mW was readily available available for purchase, even a mildly resourceful person could build or convert one for themselves. Laws will never get at the root problem in the case of most crimes because devices are not the core problem, social and spiritual issues are. 

I somehow ran into an off the wall link the other day that was discussing child injuries due to violence in Cape Town, SA. 

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k8047738x01rt644/

One of the key observations I made was that of 551 deaths or injuries, none of them occurred from the use of an exotic device. The implements used were things like pens, pencils, scissors, nails, and even sticks and stones! I think this is relative to the main topic in two area's. First, it points out that in one town, in one country, with only one statistic group (children) that 551 injuries makes the perceived laser issue fade to insignificance. Secondly, the article reinforces the fact that humans will act like humans no matter if they're not even adults yet and regardless of the instrument, right down to its most basic form...the stick and stone. In case this hasn't hit home yet the point I make is that humans will act immorally apart from even the stick and stone and with fists alone. The regulation of devices in an attempt to curtail criminal acts is nonsense past present and future. Historically speaking this type of thinking has served only to dis-empower the individual while empowering power groups ranging from the local warlord, king or modern "civilized" government.


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## o0o (Jun 20, 2009)

Landings and takeoffs are the most dangerous parts of air travel.

This horses rear could have caused a fatal crash with all hands lost.

I think they should charge him with 2nd degree attempted murder, as his actions had the potential to blind the pilots and force a crash during landing.


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## tsask (Jun 20, 2009)

I've been wanting to get a little more power than my CR123 green 5mw. When I saw a 30 mw at DX for less than $40, I was disappointed because it's a "no go' here in the USA. I'd like something about the same size with a little more power 10-20 mw.


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## jcvjcvjcvjcv (Jun 20, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> Does anyone know or can estimate if the laser he used is 5mW or 200mW type? If it's 200mW then I'd blame the Chinese manufacturers for creating these kinda of products and have it sold to general public. Imagine some kids have it (took from his elder brothers?) and just pointing it randomly to people's eyes or some idiots pointing them at the planes (like this guy did) :sigh:. It should be banned from being mass produced in the first place :shakehead


 
1) The government isn't your nanny

2) Well, what about frozen milk packs on the road? That can cause a lot of damage too. Want to ban freezers?

3) Well, no high-power lasers for you, so please turn in your DVD burner.



There have always been idiots on this planet and there will always be. Either it's pointing lasers at planes or trhowing stones from roadbridges onto cars or some guy killing his family. The only way to protect against that is locking up everybody.

It's just as ridiculous as the war on terrorism. You can't fight a tactic. But you create more of it [terrorism] while you fight it and it costs money and lives.

@o0o
They are able to land blind and if they aren't they can abort the landing. There is always ATC to talk blinded planes through such things.

@dudu84
Yeah, it's amazing what those people from HK can put in enveloppes. Stupid overpaid needless customs tend to ignore enveloppes in my country . That's why I never choose the more expensive "EMS" option, because then it ends up in a cardbox being detained for a week by customs, opened, taxed, etc. All-in the not-insured option is cheaper AND faster, even if 20% would get lost :ironic:.

For the real expensive items I always look for sellers that use FedEx. They hurry up and have my photography stuff from HK faster to my door without opening then my bank does a wiretransfer to anyway international  (so much for a bank moving fried air versus a post service moving real goods...).

The first thing to ban from this planet should be central banking. I say the Nazis and Soviets did more harm then some laser pointers. Well, ban central bankers and you ban things like world wars etc.



Patriot said:


> Laws will never get at the root problem in the case of most crimes because devices are not the core problem, social and spiritual issues are.


 
True.

Besides: criminals will aways get the prohibited stuff, so why not just let the law-abiding citizens have it too? The founding fathers of your country wheren't stupid when they put in the 2nd amendment. They recognised the government itself is the biggest vice.



dudu84 said:


> You are absolutely right about that, I made my judgment but I shouldn't impose it on others :thumbsup: (we are back to human rights again btw). I also agree that clearly it's good to learn, but more importantly, at what cost (not just on oneself).
> Unfortunately, those who make the rules (gov't) are also human and when a decision is made, there are always someone unhappy. Regarding the regulations in the US, I kinda approved it (I never wanted it to be banned btw, but something a little similar) but you (like many cpfers here) are against it, that's the way it is. I guess there was never a single solution for all different problems in the first place.
> 
> Perhaps including a note with the laser in lots of different languages stating that pointing the laser at an aircraft is a serious crime blah blah, though can't solve the problem, can either educate or turn some idiots off. Then the problem is if anyone is gonna bother reading it, maybe sticking a sticker on the laser will be more effective, some might have a go when they are bored enough lol.


 
You should seriously ask yourself what you think the role of government should be. Visit campaingforliberty.com, it will be mind-opening for you . Or listen to speeches of Rand Paul for that matter.

The proper role of government is protecting everyone's *individual *rights. Right to life, liberty and property. Like someone's right to own a gun and someone's right to not get shot for no reason.

Including a note saying you should not point it at aircrafts is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard concerning lasers. Talk about bringing someone to the idea...

Never heard that a lot of this crazy stuff happens in clusters? The media reports it and some idiot thinks "That's a good idea and repeats it." You can see this year after year with family drama. Some guy kills his wife and children and then it happens again four times in a month and then it doesn't happen for a year. Hmmm..

In general it's right to say that government intervention will cause harm. Like the drug policy of the USA: you can't even grow hemp for industrial use. The US imports all industrial hemp from Canada.


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## dudu84 (Jun 20, 2009)

Patriot said:


> Two important points here dudu, you've argued several times from the perspective of incurring an accident or running into a problem due to lack of experience. Well, certainly we can discuss this but keep in mind this thread is about the criminal misuse of a laser, not a lack of training or experience. Obviously no death has ever occurred from a 300mW laser and if you google search "laser caused a person to go blind" you'll see that despite their proliferation they don't seem to be a serious problem in the first place. It seems to me that your dire concern for these devices could be likened to having a phobia about the deadly effects of vegetables. Of all the things that someone could want to take issue with why not campaign against ice picks or glass beer bottles for example? While I wouldn't support such regulation I would at least understand a well do-er's misguided approach to controlling something that actually harms people.
> 
> 
> Currently high powered customs are still available to anyone who want's one. Even after the FDA import restrictions I've purchased a 320mW red, a 200mW violet and a 150mW green. These were all more money that what we're talking about at DX but the point is that they're available and I could have got them much cheaper had I instead purchased say...only a 150mW red for example. Why is this point important? Well, anyone seeking to break the law and intentionally shine lasers at aircraft or motorists still can. The FDA enforcement that you're in joyful support over effectively does nothing to impede a buyer who wants one. Even if no laser over 5mW was readily available available for purchase, even a mildly resourceful person could build or convert one for themselves. Laws will never get at the root problem in the case of most crimes because devices are not the core problem, social and spiritual issues are.
> ...



Yes, you are right, I went too far from the topic of this thread. In my discussion, I only focused on the worst case scenario (the guy pointing laser at aircraft) because my concern is in this extreme situation, many lives could be at risks (a passenger plane for example). 




jcvjcvjcvjcv said:


> 3) Well, no high-power lasers for you, so please turn in your DVD burner.


I definitely won't go back to compare a laser with another thing again as earlier in this thread but this is slightly different. If we assume both the dvd burners and the hp lasers have the same laser diode (1mW or 1W, doesn't matter), to use the burner like a laser pen, you'll have to actually disassemble it, take out the top part and always carry a 12VDC source with you when away from pc. Basically, it takes lots more effort to misuse it compared to having it operate the way it's designed to.


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## jcvjcvjcvjcv (Jun 20, 2009)

I guess you still have some learning to do.

Making a high-power laser pointer from a DVD burner is pretty easy.

The actual diode runs often at 2,4 Volts, or exactly two Ni-Mh cells.

Only 12 and 5 Volts (and sometimes 3,3 for SATA burners) enters the drive, but that gets transformed in the actual needed voltages. Heck, the CPU in the computer gets his juice from the +12 line, but runs at like 1.4 Volts.

Here is how-to in 75 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgJ0EpxjZBU&feature=channel_page


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## dudu84 (Jun 20, 2009)

jcvjcvjcvjcv said:


> I guess you still have some learning to do.
> 
> Making a high-power laser pointer from a DVD burner is pretty easy.
> 
> ...



Wow! thanks for the cool guide and the info on the voltages (ahem ahem, but I won't attempt it, I swear )

It's true that the guide is 75 seconds but the whole procedure requires some certain level of technical skills, additional components and time. I'm sure those who can manage this are "less likely" idiots compared to those who just buy the laser directly.


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## Crossfire (Jul 9, 2009)

I've built such lasers, but I'd never consider lasing aircraft, vehicles or people. In fact I generally don't point them at the sky for fear of accidentally hitting an aircraft.

I use them indoors, in my own home for my enjoyment.

The process for building such a laser is a tad more involved, since Kipkay does not use a constant-current driver to run the diode.

Anyway, anyone who lases planes should have the book thrown at them but I don't think high powered lasers should be banned at all. I've learned a lot about laser science, electronics and manufacturing techniques since I took up lasers as a hobby.


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## user1016 (Jul 10, 2009)

The idiots who laser planes are the reason why we can't have lasers here in Australia anymore =( The first country to ban laser pointers!

Seriously, what kind of country puts a ban on LASER pointers. I seriously hope to god they don't ban "ultra-bright" flashlights one day because there's "associated risk of permanent eye damage" or something. It's just what the Aussie government would do, banning torches because they're bright enough to cause eye damage, and then people would have to go through the same thing we do with lasers (getting a prohibited weapons permit).


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## Illum (Jul 11, 2009)

James Miller said:


> The first country to ban laser pointers!
> 
> Seriously, what kind of country puts a ban on LASER pointers.



I had the same thought when I heard Australia banned light bulbs...
seriously, what kind of country puts a ban on the incandescent light bulb? :thinking:

times have really changed haven't it :shrug:


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## RyanA (Jul 13, 2009)

Bad, bad Leroy Brown,
Baddest man in the whole damn town,
Badder than old King Kong,
Meaner than a junkyard dog.

He's got a custom Continental,
an Eldorado too.
He's got a 32 gun in his pocket for fun,
and a laser in his shoe.


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