# SF M6 X-LOLA...Thoughts after 5 months of use.



## seery (Jun 21, 2007)

Seems these days it's either the X-LOLA or the HOLA. The standard LOLA
just doesn't seem to get used nearly as much as it did in the "old days"!
The X-LOLA set-up is such a nice balance of all the attributes I look for and
need in a light. 

It's been five months since discovering JS's M6-X creation and I couldn't be
more excited about the way they have been performing in my M6's.

A few days ago the X-LOLA (MN15) bulb in one of my dedicated M6-X lights
was replaced for the fourth time.

Two of the four bulbs died when firing up the M6-X after a cell swap. The
lamps stay hot between battery changes since that involves a simple and
quick loaded MB20 swap.

Each time the MN15 bulb has lasted roughly four sets of cells or 8-12 hours
and not once did the bulb do anything but just "go out".

My M6's get used very hard, with drops and bangs being the norm. And at
least once a week one is submerged underwater or used in the rain, and on
several occasions as a substitute for a hammer or other heavy tool.

So as an update...THANKS again to JS for sharing his wonderful discovery
with us and to Surefire for making such an amazing illumination tool.

After 5 months of use you can quote me on this. The M6-X makes life's
tasks easier and life's fun moments more enjoyable.

Please share your thoughts & experiences on how the M6 X-LOLA has been
working for you.

THANKS.


----------



## js (Jun 21, 2007)

For those who need it, here is the link to the SF M6 X-LOLA thread.

Thanks for posting this thread, seery! I'm thrilled you like this setup so much. I too have been using the MN15 in my M6 since I posted about this configuration. I'm still on the first MN15, though.

You've replaced lamps four times, however! Wow! That's cause for mild concern, I think. I would have guessed the MN15's would have held up a little better than the 8-12 hours you've gotten--like double that or more. Ah well, that is often the price for a whiter, more efficient incan: lamp life. I haven't put more than that amount of runtime on my setup yet, nor has anyone else who has posted, I don't think, so this may very well be the lamp life one can expect, instead of the guestimate I gave in the original thread.

Anyway, thanks again for posting this. I really appreciate it!


----------



## ADDICTED2LITE (Jun 21, 2007)

Has anybody used one of the LF M3T bulbs in the M6 long term? I was wondering how long they hold up and compare to the MN15.


----------



## Owen (Jun 21, 2007)

ADDICTED2LITE said:


> Has anybody used one of the LF M3T bulbs in the M6 long term?


They only started shipping a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## LED61 (Jun 21, 2007)

I have been using the X-LOLA in one of my M6´s ever since JS discovered it. I accumulated about 7-8 hours with it before the lamp suddenly and very quickly became smoked inside, filament intact. I have since accumulated another 2 hours in a new X-LOLA with no problem. What I really like about this setup is the beautiful, long running, and extremely white beam with very little noticeable dimming. Excellent efficiency for an incan.
I hope my other lamps will not last only 7-8 hours like my first, but I haven´t seen a whiter incan beam.


----------



## 1wrx7 (Jun 21, 2007)

Last night I tried using a mn15 in my M6. I like it but, Is the oval shaped hot spot normal? I don't remember it looking like that in my M3T. It's great to have more options for any light.


----------



## seery (Jun 21, 2007)

js said:


> I would have guessed the MN15's would have held up a little better than the 8-12 hours you've gotten--like double that or more.


Jim - If looking at an X-LOLA set-up exhausted MN15 bulb would help determine
something useful or of interest, please advise and I'll happily send one your way in the
name of science. Let me know as I could get it out in the morning via 1st class mail.

Not at all dissapointed with the 10 hours average life from the X-LOLA set-up MN15. This
equates to $1.25 more per hour of operation than I get from the MN20/MN21 lamps. Very
minimal cost impact.

When the meter is ticking, the M6-X wil cost the user just .10cents/per minute of operation.
This of course is factoring in the cost of SF OEM cells (400 count quantities) and the cost
of the lamps. For what it offers, this is cheap IMO considering all same factors the HOLA
MN21 will cost the user .50/per minute of operation.

:bow::bow::bow:M6-X


----------



## Icebreak (Jun 21, 2007)

Jim -

That sounds like a heck of a success to me. 

Seery -

I'm interested to know the color of the residue that may have adhered to the inside of the envelope. I'm going to guess that it is white or off-white. Can you tell if the filament is still shiney or is it dark?

Either way, good job j_s.

- Jeff


----------



## seery (Jun 22, 2007)

Icebreak said:


> I'm interested to know the color of the residue that may have adhered to the inside of the envelope. I'm going to guess that it is white or off-white. Can you tell if the filament is still shiney or is it dark?


The residue is cloudy white with a very slight tint/swirl of gray.
The bottom of the filament is visible and it appears somewhat shiny.

Hope this helps out.


----------



## LED61 (Jun 22, 2007)

Icebreak, I still have the bulb with me. I can send it to you if you´d like. FYR, a fuzzy picture of it is posted in Jim´s X LOLA thread.


----------



## Destroid Monster (Jun 22, 2007)

seery said:


> Two of the four bulbs died when firing up the M6-X after a cell swap. The
> lamps stay hot between battery changes since that involves a simple and
> quick loaded MB20 swap.
> 
> ...



Would using slightly discharged CR123 (ie: using the set of battery thats has already ran 5-10 mins on the MN20) help in improving the blub lifespan? It seems that the inital blast of 6 fresh cell is too much for the MN15 to bear.


----------



## senna94 (Jun 22, 2007)

Great info. and thread!!! Can anyone using this set up please post some beamshots comparing the MN15 to MN20 & MN21 in the M6.


----------



## cnjl3 (Jun 22, 2007)

I have changed the 123's in my MB20 twice and my MN15 is still going strong 'BUT' I have never dropped my M6 nor submerged it under water although twice I have used it in the rain.
I have several hammers so my M6 has been spared that abuse-LOL:nana:

But once I got my HDM6 I switched to running mostly the HOLA and abandoned the MN15.

Today I switched from the HOLA back to the MN15 because I want to see just how long it takes before my mighty MN15 'bites the dust'. I am hoping i get more time because of the 'softstart' feature of the HDM6.



seery said:


> My M6's get used very hard, with drops and bangs being the norm. And at
> least once a week one is submerged underwater or used in the rain, and on several occasions as a substitute for a hammer or other heavy tool.


----------



## kelmo (Jun 22, 2007)

Oops!


----------



## kelmo (Jun 22, 2007)

seery said:


> My M6's get used very hard,...used...on
> several occasions as a substitute for a hammer or other heavy tool...



Hardcore!


----------



## BBL (Jun 23, 2007)

seery, i'm impressed that you take economical considerations into account, when using the M6  ... normally, in my experience, people around here just shell out money 

Would you mind posting pictures of your M6? I've never seen a M6 that has been used and abused.

And why is it economical to use the MN15 overdriven? I mean, those bulbs are not exactly cheap.


----------



## Icebreak (Jun 23, 2007)

Thanks, seery.

Those colors indicate a fill gas compromise that took place during use. The compromise was likely due to a lamp failure. We knew all of this from your post. It does help because it corroborates previous findings on lamp failures that were similar.

LED61 -

Your lamp turn black not violet-blue? If it was a rapid degredation of light and black appeared as a residue on the inside of the lamp well, I haven't found a definitive answer for that. My theory is that it is was gaseous tungstan that rapidly became deposited during a fill gas failure. js explains that no temperature attainable by a filament can fail a fill gas so this may have to be an envelope failure. I'm curious as to why the black appears. I've got some ideas and I'll do research on the subject.

If it is black I'd sure like to take a look at it. PM coming to you.

Guys, I'm interested in this stuff for many reasons but one of the reasons is that some folks (myself included) though that most failures in experiments were due to too much overdrive. They would abandon a power source and it turns out that it often wasn't the power source.

Understanding failures helps with the X-HOLA too. It would seem that Jim has found a special lamp that is efficient and stays white during the majority of the run. This is great stuff. He may be able to determine the weak point and improve it or make suggestion as to how to improve the lamp. 10hrs seems pretty good but I'm sure you guys would like better. 

From what I've read about the X-LOLA it reminds me of another special bulb that pizzaman discovered in the Radio Shack XPR103 driving it with 4 D cell for a peddley little 4.48 watts. It runs white and in a Mag with medium stipple it's very useful. I appreciate that low output white incan and can appreciate what you guys are doing here with a much more powerful light that spoken of in LOLA terms.

Thanks for all your help.


----------



## seery (Jun 23, 2007)

Icebreak - There is a thin black line around the inside middle of the bulb. Just as
if it was drawn with a sharpie. This may be of useful info.

If you or JS would like to look at it, please let me know and I'll hold off tossing it.


----------



## Icebreak (Jun 23, 2007)

That is interesting, seery.

To me it would seem the deposits on failed lamps are a kind of snapshot of the failure. That black line in your lamp is likely a tungsten oxide deposit.

The failure may be specifically caused by a seal failure in the lamp's envelope near the base. The excessive heat of the lamp may cause the seal to compromise, flooding (at different rates) the lamp's atmosphere with oxygen. The Halogen cycle breaks down, and the envelope fills with oxide gasses. However your black line may be showing where the halogen failed to combine with the condensated tungsten for two different possible reasons. Not enough halogen left in the atmosphere to do the job and this would be in the beginning of the process failure or, the envelope had finally become too cool to support the halogen process and left the condensated tungsten to continue to build up in that exact area.

Some modern Tungsten-Halogen lamps have a built in heat sink. The metal ring potted lamps js built have a very similar strategy. If these MN-15 lamps had metal ring potting or heat sinking it's possible they would last longer by protecting the lamp seal from excess heat build up.

I'd like to see your lamp but I'd also like to see what js thinks. He may want to do a post-mortum.

Thanks for the information.


----------



## cnjl3 (Jun 24, 2007)

'ditto' on the pic's of a 'seasoned' M6.








BBL said:


> Would you mind posting pictures of your M6? I've never seen a M6 that has been used and abused.


----------



## seery (Jun 24, 2007)

cnjl3 said:


> 'ditto' on the pic's of a 'seasoned' M6.


Changed from PC to Mac and have yet to figure out getting pics into iPhoto.
As soon as I figure it I'll post a pic of a nicely used M6. Heading out the door
to go snorkeling and this time I'm going to see how the MN15 bulbs works.


----------



## js (Jun 27, 2007)

Hey guys!

Send any lamps to Icebreak. I'm swamped with general life stuff and TL consulting work right now.

As for the overdrive of lamps not causing more envelope failures, I'm starting to seriously question my previous stance on this issue. I know that all my Welch Allyn 1111 ring-potted lamps, driven to about the 10-11 hours of life level, just simply survive until the point where they instaflash at turn on. I've never had one explode or have envelope failure on me, actually, nor have I heard from a Tiger11 owner who had one explode or have envelope failure. Ditto for Osram 62138 lamps. I've flashed almost half a dozen of these during the USL project, but never blown one up. Of course, they are quartz glass, with a larger envelope than either a WA or SF lamp.

Anyway, it seems that in lamps where the leads are bent, like in PR base potted lamps, or in SF lamps, that overdrive does indeed seem to result in more explosions or envelope failures. There is mounting evidence to this effect.

The PR base WA lamps potted by Carley I understand. That's just because Carley is bending one of the leads back in order to make it into a PR base lamp.

But the SF thing-- . . . I'm not so sure.

Oh, and someone asked about whether using slightly depleted CR123 cells would help matters. And I think the answer is "not much" because at this draw rate, the 123 cells maintain a really high and flat voltage for most of the first _half_ of their discharge, and thus a few minutes of runtime into the cycle wouldn't be much different in voltage.

Anyway, thanks everyone, and I'm glad people are still pleased with 10-15 hours, but it is a bit less than I had realy hoped for, unfortunately. Ah well, can't have everything all the time!


----------



## Icebreak (Jun 27, 2007)

Which is why you should quit your job as a scientist tomorrow morning and become a lamp manufacturer specializing in ultra-performing heat-sinked bulbs. You'll make gobs of money and friends plus it will be terrifically interesting. I mean, how interesting can quantum physics be anyways?


----------



## Tessaiga (Jun 28, 2007)

There's one thing that I do not understand. Why is the dimmer LA (MN15) underdriven by 3 CR123 whereas the brighter one (MN16) is not? 

Can someone explain it in simple layman terms please...


----------



## defusion (Jun 28, 2007)

Tessaiga said:


> There's one thing that I do not understand. Why is the dimmer LA (MN15) underdriven by 3 CR123 whereas the brighter one (MN16) is not?
> 
> Can someone explain it in simple layman terms please...


both bulbs are designed for 3 CR123 cells.
the HOLA will draw a bigger current, and therefore it is designed for a lower voltage (because the voltage provided drops with an increase in current per cell).
when you put this bulb in a light capable of providing higher currents because of the dual-stack design, it will give a higher voltage. both bulbs are being overdriven, but the HOLA more so because it was designed for lower voltages. with half the current, voltage is significantly increased. with the MN15 on dual stacks, the increase isn't that much because the cells are well within their maximum operating conditions on 3 cells already, and a dual stack won't increase the voltage that significantly.


----------



## BSBG (Jul 4, 2007)

I have not run the MN15 enough to kill one yet, but it does offer too many benefits - a great beam, useful amount of light and decent runtime to abandon the idea based on short bulb life. I just ordered a few more MN15s just in case.


----------



## 1wrx7 (Jul 4, 2007)

Would using the N2 bulb help with the heatsinking issue? I know they're hard to come by but they have an aluminum housing. After finding this combination my M6 has become much more useful. Thanks to all.


----------



## seery (Jul 7, 2007)

BSBG said:


> I have not run the MN15 enough to kill one yet, but it does offer too many benefits - a great beam, useful amount of light and decent runtime to abandon the idea based on short bulb life. I just ordered a few more MN15s just in case.


Agree 100%. IMO though the 8-12 hours bulb life I'm getting with the M6-X seems reasonable and acceptable, not short.

With the last bulb change on one of my M6-X's, I'm changing cells the "old fashioned" way instead of quickly swapping MB20's
as in the past. Maybe allowing the bulb to cool a bit before tapping it with fresh cells will help the bulb life, we'll see.


----------



## Icebreak (Jul 8, 2007)

1wrx7 said:


> Would using the N2 bulb help with the heatsinking issue? I know they're hard to come by but they have an aluminum housing. After finding this combination my M6 has become much more useful. Thanks to all.



Interesting. N2 Surefire lamp.

I think it darn sure would help with heatsinking. I guess js mentioned that some of you guys were using this in the M6 in the original X-LOLA thread. Now I see why. Learn something new every day. Thanks!


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jul 8, 2007)

I have only used the N2. It is the only LA for turboheads that has an aluminum housing? I do know that the KT1 does not have the shock issolated setup, and the N2, or what ever LA (MN) used has better heat sinking to the head in the KT1.

Bill


----------



## leukos (Jul 9, 2007)

All SF turbohead lamps have an aluminum housing, they are just anodized different colors.


----------



## js (Jul 12, 2007)

leukos said:


> All SF turbohead lamps have an aluminum housing, they are just anodized different colors.



This is correct. And on top of that, all the new MN series lamps are black with white lettering identifiying the type instead of different colors. The black would be the best of all for heat sinking.

But honestly, I don't think it would matter all that much either way. As anyone will tell you, the ambient temperature of the M6 head running the MN15 is a LOT cooler than with the MN20 or MN21, and this will translate to lowered air temp inside the head, which will translate to a (slightly) lower envelope temperature of the bulb. And since these lamps aren't exploding, it points to a simple high-drive situation and thus a reduced filament life. But, also, to a whiter beam (higher CCT) and higher efficiency. Tradeoffs, as always, I suppose.

As for the N2, I've never tried one on 3s2p 123's, but I would guess it would be even MORE overdriven than the MN15. Plus they're harder to get than MN15's, aren't they? Still, worth a try if someone wants to risk it, and the beam is more round than the MN15 beam, which may appeal to some people.


----------



## cnjl3 (Jul 14, 2007)

I think you hit the nail on the head with letting the bulb cool down because so far i have changed 123's twice with the stock M6 holder and I am currently on my 2nd charge with my HDM6 all with the same MN15.



seery said:


> With the last bulb change on one of my M6-X's, I'm changing cells the "old fashioned" way instead of quickly swapping MB20's
> as in the past. Maybe allowing the bulb to cool a bit before tapping it with fresh cells will help the bulb life, we'll see.


----------



## Wolfhound 9K (Aug 2, 2007)

Has anyone ever considered putting in a 12v MN60 or MN61 in the SF M6 Guardian? I would think that the bulb itself would be very reliable because it is being under driven and yet it would still give you a decent amount of output right? just a thought... as I am preparing to convert my own 9P into a M4 :naughty:


----------



## js (Aug 2, 2007)

Regarding using R123's in the MB20, and the MN60 or MN61, please see this thread. And LF now has a lamp specifically made for use with R123's in the MB20.

However, if I understand you correctly, you mean running an MN60 or MN61 using the MB20 with primary 123's, right?

If so, that would severely _underdrive_ those lamps, yielding an inefficient, yellowy beam. But yes, the lamps would last a long long time.


----------

