# We have been doing our wake up lighting all wrong.



## degarb (Feb 18, 2018)

My suspicion is that we have been doing our wake up and motivational lighting all wrong. Lighting is essential for reducing caffeine dependency and keeping a circadian rhythm. Now, I have my suspicion on the optimal beam shape (more peripheral) and optimal color (cool). I don't think this optimal wake-up beam pattern has been specifically studied by professional grant recipients, but I found evidence that our melatonin suppressing eye cells are solely in the eye periphery, based on the below science findings. 

ipRGCs: Intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells (ipRGCs), also called photosensitive retinal ganglion cells (pRGC), or melanopsin-containing retinal ganglion cells (mRGCs). Only about two percent of all retinal ganglion cells are ipRGC. 

White light induces activation of ganglion cells containing PACAP, Pituitary adenylate cyclase-activating polypeptide. These signals are then carried through the optic nerve, which projects to the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), anterior hypothalamic area. The suprachiasmatic nucleus or nuclei (SCN) is a tiny region of the brain in the hypothalamus, situated directly above the optic chiasm. It is responsible for controlling circadian rhythms. These photosensitive Ganglion Cell are also responsible for acute photic suppression of the hormone melatonin. 

Melanopsin is particularly sensitive to the absorption of short-wavelength (blue) visible light, absorption peaks at ~480 nanometers. Melanopsin is exclusively found in the peripheral regions of the retina, also found in the cone cells. However, only 0.11% to 0.55% of human cones express Melanopsin. 

Compared to the rods and cones, the ipRGCs respond more sluggishly and signal the presence of light over the long term. They represent a very small subset (~1%) of the retinal ganglion cells.

The photoreceptors were identified in 2002 by Samer Hattar, David Berson and colleagues. 

So, light also can regulate circadian rhythm in the blind! 

So, ipRGCs cells are new 3rd cell type in the eye. The back of the eye retina contains rods and cone cells, as we were taught in grade school. Cones see color, sharp vision, congregation in 15 degrees of center. The rods in peripheral vision are thought to not see color, but extremely good at seeing movement. How color blind rods are, would be of great interest to me. But it is written, " Rods have little role in color vision, which is one of the main reasons why colors are much less apparent in darkness."  Your fovea is your super sharp vision in eye, about 2 degrees on center.... This is why you must make eye jumps on lines of texts over lines, not even 3 inches wide, when reading. Also, reason you can play peekaboo all year long on walls finding minor imperfections, as the minor imperfections will seem to jump out at you from nowhere, even years after staring at the same wall. You must do 4 inch eye jumps, at a maximum, as if you were reading text of a half inch font, to reasonably find most imperfections. This means, “You also cannot look at a wall to see imperfections!“ I must reprove this several times annually, because thick headed people refuse to believe this. Prove by hiding an imperfection of a low contrast, then challenging the pig headed person to find it, which they will not be able to, unless the eye lands on, or mere inches, from it (under right lighting condition). Many magic tricks, even at close range, depend on this eye biological fact that people innately reject. See 'Brain Games' season 1, for more details and proof.

So, flood for navigation and looking for something ; spot for looking at something. The exception might be traveling down a mountain on a bike at 45 mph, and looking for a low contrast imperfection or something in a very cluttered area. And, finally, it may be that for a wake up light, the peripheral vision may be the only area of the eye that matters. 

So, stimulating the ipRGCs with best beam pattern for wake up, may mean, either a halo (inverted spot) or just two spots at side of vision. I personally have a hard time giving up the notion that a bright central light is not needed. But certainly brighter at sides (possibly, over head?) is needed. Exact relative beam intensity for maximum electrical efficiency for waking, not sure. Outside, where 100k lux is stunning, mostly uniform with overhead spot that is not looked at. Definitely tons of peripheral light outside.

I am interested in anecdotal replies from people using light to wake up. (I wish, in addition to a timer that clicks on 15 minutes prior to the alarm clock, a gradual automatic ramp up of intensity, were possible in a wake-up light.) 

https://www.chronobiology.com/the-eyes-role-in-circadian-rhythm-entrainment/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsically_photosensitive_retinal_ganglion_cells

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinohypothalamic_tract
Retirohypothalamus_tractmh


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## milehigher (Feb 18, 2018)

It sounds like what you are wishing for is a dawn dusk simulator ,I have an LED light box that is 10,000 lumen ,it's also my alarm clock you can vary the timing of both dawn & dusk between 5 minutes and 45 and have independent settings for each day of the week as well as wake up with light were it builds up in intensity over whatever period you want. I have a circadian rythym disorder which of course gets more jacked up in winter the cold negatively effects my muscles and being we have had almost 13 feet of snow so far this year , it's not exactly wheelchair weather (I could get studded snow tires but i think my landlord might object to what that would do the floors) so I don't get much sunlight in winter , so I bake like a lizard on rock in the early morning even if I am asleep, I normaly dont go to bed until about 2:30 AM and my sleep varies from none to 14-16 hours frequently I will be continuously awake for a week before I finally sleep , I just have no idea when a lay down what's going to happen ,my sleep pathologist belives my sleep disorder is related to my physical condition ( if he can figure it out hes got a nobel prize coming his way )even though the physical condition didnt "express" it self until 2003 it was dormant until then, hiding in my genes,so ultimately the trick lighting has been proven beneficial for things like SAD it cant hurt to try it on me.

But Google dawn/dusk simulators, they are readily available, i have never seen one that would control a whole room or house ,then again i cant say I looked real hard either ,I also have 10,000 lumen table lights and reading lights in fluorescent bulbs that i can vary the temperature to produce any tint I want for whatever I am doing be it reading, writing or playing radio on my doctors advice, he is one of the top sleep pathology researchers who actually has an active private practice outside of the lab , I am incredibly lucky to have .


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## degarb (Feb 19, 2018)

I will look up "dawn dusk simulator".


While I do think the melatonin squashing cells are in the peripheral vision (I feel it in morning and above evidence), there may be also signaling to the SCN from other cells, even cones. Research needed... It may also turn out that there may be parts of the non visible spectrum that these ipRGCs pick up on that only the sun (or, maybe a MH light) puts out. Certainly, working with a 1000W MH is the only time inside I feel equivalent to the great outdoors..... (Personally, I would rather work outside in subfreezing weather than be stuck inside).


Now, you sound like you have an extreme condition. So, I will go off topic, some things are too important. I firmly believe that sleep is only time our blood brain barrier allows the lymphatic system to clean out our brain neurons of the mitochondria metabolic waste products. So, my workday begins the evening before at time I start driving home. I must carefully plan every minute so I can function next day with out a cloudy head. Firstly, you need a significant amount of exercise each day to fall asleep. Then if circadian is screwed, you will have issues falling asleep, so do not sleep in more than an hour. Then, consider caffeine has half life of around 5.5 hours, so be aware that 300 mg caffeine in morning will have half a cup of coffee caffeine in brain at evening, which is enough to displace adenosines in brain which promote sleep. Then, naturally, have a cool down period before bed, and absolute time to turn out the lights. There are times laying in bed wide awake is counter productive; yet, more often than not, just turning on talk radio or old time Radio to keep area dark while exercising mind on useless task, will be enough to fall asleep. A text to speech, robotic read textbook also works. Then, for me, melatonin rarely works, but if good brand, it seems to work on brain, but not my nervous system. Allergy medicine like somenix, works well on nervous system, but not brain-moreover even one pill give me a hang over. I found taking no more that half a sominex or equivalent, plus one good brand of melatonin, 1.5 hours before bed, works every time 1h20 minutes after taking. However there is only a 40 minute window to turn out the lights and jump through to sleep. Waking around 5 hours in, is a risk, usually taking one more melatonin if early enough, can allow continued sleep for next 3 or 4 hours without a hangover. The first 3 hours is a very deep active sleep, which is so refreshing that the brain thinks it is done after 4 to 5 hours, I believe. Of course, if you sleep in, you are wired with coffee, you did not wear out your muscles which are storing sugars and energy, then you probably won't sleep even with half a benedryl and one melatonin..... Also, I have worked night work. Moving rhythm forward 3 hours is about maximum. And, backward 1.5 hour, is about my limit. So, starting a night job is easy, but going back to day job, is a 6 day task. At least with legal drugs available to me.


Now, light is just one part of the puzzle for waking up. My motto is sight (light), sound (good music), circulation (moving around), respiration (deep breathing), and a goal/plan. Though seeing how far we can take it with just lighting, by optimization of positioning, intensity, color, is nothing I have taken beyond a light on a timer, or strapping an energizer headlamp to my wrist and shining it into my eyes, as not to wake up wife. 

Young people should have no issues with falling asleep: older men have the issue. Waking at 8 pm to arrive at 11 pm with artificial lights that could not cut it=relying on caffeine to motivate, was the cause of the worst of my sleep disorders. It wasn't until I hit age 24 and broke the 200 MG caffeine mark that I noticed problems falling to sleep by 11, even when waking reliably at 5 am. Which resulted in a brain that does not wake up until 2 pm....


This is my best advice. A half dozen people have tried my half benedryl + 1 melatonin, 1.5 hours before bed, trick, all with rave reviews. However, most people are innate drug abusers, so they double the dosage, then vary the formula, forget why this formula worked in the first place, then are back to their old ways of taking too much melatonin or sominex. 


Sleep /wake is a metabolic process. Like most biological metabolic processes, we need to dove tail dozens of things to get it right.


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## StarHalo (Feb 19, 2018)

You just have to go back to what your design calls for; homo sapiens has been waking and sleeping pretty much the same way for the last one million years, it's only in the last century that it's been disrupted by electric lighting and devices. Lighting dims in the evening, becomes warmer by the fire/lantern, and you lie down to sleep in complete darkness and silence. You wake to a dim, warm sunrise, which grows brighter and cooler as your morning progresses (the lighting is the snooze function.) 

You can simulate all this with a Philips Wake Up Light in a dark, quiet bedroom. I'm also a fan of their Hue lighting system, which allows you to set the brightness and temperature of your lighting; not long after sunset, my living room lights are set to automatically dim and warm notably, as if sitting by a fire, very relaxing.

Morning caffeine has been around for roughly a millennia, but the key here is to understand tolerance - if you've become accustomed to half a gallon of coffee every morning, that's what your body will require to start normally. This means you can also become accustomed to half a cup of coffee, and you'll get exactly the same response from your body (my morning cup is 4.5 fl oz, or .56 cups.) It's much cheaper, faster, safer to train your body to get by on as little as possible.


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## degarb (Feb 20, 2018)

I also believe in taking a caffeine sabbath once a week, so that it works when you need it. Probably, 2 days a week are really needed to better get the natural insecticide out of your system. 

I have read that the brain grows adenosine receptors to compensate for the use of caffeine. Do not know if they can be ungrown by abstinence. 

Caffeine is also thought to contribute to hair loss,by raising cortisol levels. 

However, notice that the political, scientific, industrial progress just happened to happen at the time when Europeans stopped drinking alcohol all day, and switched to tea and coffee. It is hard to be lazy with a good night of sleep, good diet, bright light, and caffeine (if not used to it) in your system. The laziest people I know abstain from coffee and bright lights. Also, self discipline needs a clear head from enough sleep.


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## ssanasisredna (Feb 20, 2018)

degarb said:


> I also believe in taking a caffeine sabbath once a week, so that it works when you need it. Probably, 2 days a week are really needed to better get the natural insecticide out of your system.
> 
> I have read that the brain grows adenosine receptors to compensate for the use of caffeine. Do not know if they can be ungrown by abstinence.
> 
> ...



Every bit of research points to those that are night owls and sleep less are typically high achievers in society.


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## degarb (Feb 20, 2018)

ssanasisredna said:


> Every bit of research points to those that are night owls and sleep less are typically high achievers in society.



Obviously, working when your body is cooperating is more productive, than when the clock says stop. Tremendous amount of energy can be exerted when needing to start a 7 am job, driving an hour, and trying to get enough sleep and a fruitful morning routine before leaving. When I was younger, I would work 40 hours straight on nothing more than zero caffeine. Though 20 hours up, 10 hours down seemed to work best for me, with no stimulants. However, adding up the hours, actual work time /up time was relatively the same no matter the schedule, due to the metabolic nature of sleep.

In real life, you are expected to keep regular hours and be reliable, which is why I have paid workers with far less talent bigger money, simply because they were reliable and could manage their circadian rhythm. I guess it is a domino effect. So, on an assembly line, if you have 1500 people behind you, 1 minute late, cost the line 1500 minutes. Unfortunately, circadian rhythm management is a valuable talent. 

Probably, because I allow caffeine, my natural tendency is to always fall asleep 1.5 hours later than the night before. It is a constant struggle, staying on a 24 hour cycle.


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## StarHalo (Feb 20, 2018)

No caffeine after sunset, my last serving of the stuff is usually at 2PM; the lights dim at 8PM and after sitting in dim, warm lighting for a couple hours with my body free of stimulants, I just naturally start falling asleep.


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## Genzod (Feb 20, 2018)

degarb said:


> I also believe in taking a caffeine sabbath once a week, so that it works when you need it. Probably, 2 days a week are really needed to better get the natural insecticide out of your system.
> 
> I have read that the brain grows adenosine receptors to compensate for the use of caffeine. Do not know if they can be ungrown by abstinence.
> 
> ...



I'd like to add to this discussion without trying to appear to be contradictory. You have a good grasp of light, melatonin and circadian rhythm and how that affects society. There are extra dimensions to the understanding of sleep and wakefulness, so this comment should be considered complementary to the light aspect of it.

If you were to ask someone in special forces (Green Beret, Navy Seals etc) whether it is light or sleep or caffeine that makes the difference for them, they would tell you the key to their success is merely pushing through the noise/will of their body and attaining a second wind threshold. Although they might not be able to describe it in academic terms, this is simply pituitary hormone release as well as some other chemicals in the body. They have simply learned that ignoring you body's will and pushing through it is the trigger that releases the power to rise above it.

Long distance runners know this, too. It's called runner's high and involves far more chemicals than merely the popular misnomer that it's endorphins--HGH and natural cannabinoids are released as well.

Some people can sleep for 12 hours and feel like they are missing something and need to sleep more. Some people have learned how to sleep on less than 4 hours. If you have an effective, deep pituitary release, you will wake up quite naturally after around 3-4 hours and not feel a need to go back to sleep. People in excess of 80 years have a difficult time releasing adequate amounts of HGH, and their sleep is severely compromised.

Melatonin on the other hand is in the pineal gland near the pituitary. It's all part of maintaining a healthy circadian rhythm. A deficit of light leads to seasonal depressive disorder. But following circadian rhythm to special forces is certain death.

Pituitary release is restorative to both body and mind involving the hormone HGH which repairs the body. HGH builds to release around 90 min mark and to a lesser extent around 2-1/2 hours, with a REM dream cycle in between. Three more REM cycles (about 15 minutes each) accomplished with a few power naps of 20-30 minutes through the day psychologically purge the mind. Getting those is the secret to enduring long periods of reduced sleep.

Physical exercise can produce large releases of HGH reducing the need for the physical purpose of sleep. Sleep starvation assists rapid descent into REM and DELTA stages. One can get by quite regularly by trimming out the ineffectual periods of sleep by understanding the purpose of sleep and how to stimulate these restorative functions of the body through will and effort. This sleep is called polyphasic sleep. The ones who tried it and failed and now dismiss it never understood what people who do understand it and successfully use it know.

David Goggins, Navy SEAL has a physically rigorous schedule, yet only gets by on three hours of sleep. I've pushed through my body's demand against dehydration and physically restorative sleep by commanding my body to take unwanted enforced steps toward my next water source. I knew if I acquiesced to my body's demand for sleep that I would wake up even more dehydrated or even possibly not at all. The first 15 seconds were agony, then something broke within me and I flew down the mountain without effort or further agony. I gave my body what it needed, and it shut up long enough for me to do the work to get to the water I needed.

Instead, I became intimately acquainted for the first time with what I later learned was the sleep secret of special forces.

I also take caffeine to open up blood flow when I trail run all day, yet I can fall asleep moments after laying down and wake without alarm 2-3 hours later completely refreshed. The secret behind falling to sleep even while under influence of a stimulant is "sleep pressure"--the body craving sleep from a taxed body and mind.

Some people who are too smart for their own good often dismiss all this and sometimes accredit special forces ability to go for long periods with little or no sleep to a specially designed anti-sleep drug. Officially, they don't acknowledge this and for obvious reasons couldn't even if it were true, but one does not deny the other. A back up plan B can only reaffirm the existence of a plan A.

I have no access to plan B, yet fully understand plan A. I'd think it's safe to assume I haven't discovered something I could teach a SEAL or Green Beret.


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## degarb (Feb 20, 2018)

Genzod said:


> I'd like to add to this discussion without trying to appear to be contradictory.



Indeed, the military have studied sleep deprivation. They would have already developed the perfect "alert inducing" helmet with 5mm leds shining in the privates' peripheral vision with the perfect balance of spot and flood illuminating the area ahead. For some reason, they don't want their private's head shot off at night; It is almost an obsession with them.

My air force uncle thinks he can drive long distance by closing one eye at a time, resting that half of his body. (Something they believed when dropping bombs around the clock in Vietnam, I guess.)

The Germans used meth during early stages of their blitz. Letters home were begging family to get more, once supplies ran out. Also, probable reason for war atrocities. http://www.spiegel.de/international...o-nazi-germany-and-world-war-ii-a-901755.html

I once read an army study, where 9 cups of coffee was the equivalent of a low dose of cocaine (which means they experimented with cocaine.) (lsd, syphilis, etc.) https://www.salon.com/2014/09/04/10_of_the_most_evil_medical_experiments_in_history_partner/

I am interested in any theories and tests by the military. The "will" thing, is just another way to say, you need goals to keep awake-where staying awake and alive is a goal in itself. *However, we cannot confuse mental and sleep exertion, which have very different costs and requirements.* Experiments on the generals on sleep deprivation is more of interest, than experiments on over exuberant, young, physical troops. .. Young people take far little to get excited.... Self motivation, v. external motivation. Life or death decision making... Seeing the absurdity, where most play along...

I tried polyphasic sleep 4h45m sleep, plus one or two naps of 20 to 40 minutes - 28 years ago. Worked great for 14 days, until I overslept the alarm and woke 3 days later. So, it works, but only got me so far. https://www.supermemo.com/en/articles/polyphasic

Again, *we cannot confuse mental and sleep exertion, which have very different costs and requirements. *


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## StarHalo (Feb 20, 2018)

degarb said:


> I once read an army study, where 9 cups of coffee was the equivalent of a low dose of cocaine (which means they experimented with cocaine.) (lsd, syphilis, etc.)



The Air Force uses/provides Provigil for "fatigue management," they previously used Dexy. 

I've used ECA stacks at work before, which is favored by truckers and weightlifters; remember when you were a kid on the playground, and you'd just run all over the place, never giving a thought to your energy level or if it'd hurt later - that's the experience of an ECA stack, glorious stuff. I'd think it'd definitely get you to physical fatigue that'd lead to some solid sleep, but I've never had an issue with sleep so I can't say.


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## degarb (Feb 20, 2018)

StarHalo said:


> The Air Force uses/provides Provigil for "fatigue management," they previously used Dexy.
> 
> I've used ECA stacks at work before, which is favored by truckers and weightlifters; remember when you were a kid on the playground, and you'd just run all over the place, never giving a thought to your energy level or if it'd hurt later - that's the experience of an ECA stack, glorious stuff. I'd think it'd definitely get you to physical fatigue that'd lead to some solid sleep, but I've never had an issue with sleep so I can't say.



Very interesting. It appears it takes decades for the downsides to be proven, before these things are banned.

Physical fatigue is needed for me to fall asleep; however, mental exhaustion seems more important for me. Problem for me, is that I do need both (mental and physical), and often these are mutually exclusive activities during some days, leaving me a hard time falling to sleep while being exhausted.


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## Genzod (Feb 20, 2018)

degarb said:


> I tried polyphasic sleep 4h45m sleep, plus one or two naps of 20 to 40 minutes - 28 years ago. Worked great for 14 days, until I overslept the alarm and woke 3 days later. So, it works, but only got me so far. https://www.supermemo.com/en/articles/polyphasic
> 
> Again, *we cannot confuse mental and sleep exertion, which have very different costs and requirements. *



Polyphasic sleep, when applied in conjunction with a specialist has provided at least 70 days of highly physical activity on much reduced sleep.

David Goggins is a CPO (and remains so even if he might be retired by now--because you never really retire the service, they can call you back at any time). He's been with the SEALS for a lengthy career, and I'm sure by now has gone past the point of mere youthful excitability. His motivation extends beyond mere survival as demonstrated by his civilian sponsored achievements during mountain racing. 

My point is, one can will yourself to stay awake and be refreshed by consciously triggering the same responses that are achieved through sleep. It has a different hormonal pathway than that which light takes, so two pathways to the same result, a multidimensional dynamic.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by your last emphasized point, so I'm not sure how to respond to it.


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## StarHalo (Feb 20, 2018)

Reading in bed provides the mental fatigue part pretty quickly; it can be anything, but when you want it to come on quickly, something very weighty and scholarly works well. Spengler's Decline of the West is a fine example, see if you can read the opening paragraphs without becoming tired:

_In this book is attempted for the first time the venture of predetermining his- 
tory, of following the still untravelled stages in the destiny of a Culture, and 
specifically of the only Culture of our time and on our planet which is actu- 
ally in the phase of fulfilment — the West-European- American. 

Hitherto the possibility of solving a problem so far-reaching has evidently 
never been envisaged, and even if it had been so, the means of dealing with it 
were either altogether unsuspected or, at best, inadequately used. 

Is there a logic of history? Is there, beyond all the casual and incalculable 
elements of the separate events, something that we may call a metaphysical 
structure of historic humanity, something that is essentially independent of 
the outward forms — social, spiritual and political — which we see so clearly? 
Are not these actualities indeed secondary or derived from that something? 
Does world-history present to the seeing eye certain grand traits, again and 
again, with sufficient constancy to justify certain conclusions? And if so, what 
are the limits to which reasoning from such premisses may be pushed?_


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## degarb (Feb 20, 2018)

Star halo, that might put me to sleep, except my laughter disturbed my rest. Also, reading just doesn't fatigue me as it used to, before bright headlamps and back lit screens.


Your lymphatic system clears out every cell's waste products in the body during the day, except the brain. During sleep, the process of clearing brain waste begins. Your brain structure, how much waste needs cleaning, your genes, determine how long this takes. Hopefully, the process can be hastened with tricks like deprivation, polyphenol sleep etc. 

So, we older people who have a larger library of experience, so use far fewer brain waves to access and problem solve. The fewer watts we use, mean less brain waste to clear out, and less sleep need. We are just harder to excite. Lessening melatonin production further hurts the situation. .. Thus, used to extreme mental exhaustion, at age 19 I got up early, worked hard physically for 9 hours, got cleaned, packed, said goodbye to a friend and drove straight to Colorado 30 hour away, no caffeine, just a few new tapes of music, one 20 minute nap, no fatigue. Physical exertion is really not enough to make me tired enough for sleep. Though I hate stored sugars in my muscles when trying to fall asleep. 


I guess a new study came out saying that the iPhone yellow night mode wasn't enough. Overall light level matters more. But I do think there's evidence spectrum matters. The formula is not fully understood. Perhaps.


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## degarb (Feb 20, 2018)

Polyphase not polyphenol. Auto correct, combined with the wonderful cpf php host that won't let me edit. Today, twice I spent a great deal of time composing, only to have the cpf fail on post and wipe out my work. Once on phone and once on desk. 

I am not complaining, I love having to be forced to retype a second draft, like it was 1986,cause I'm kicking it like it was 1966.


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## milehigher (Feb 20, 2018)

I take 5 mg of melatonin and 60 of temazepam i take the melatonin in the evening and the temazepam at bedtime .i use very very little caffeine i do everything decafe ,excercise is a big problem (without long explanation i have competeing diseases one kills my muscles for not using them , the other kills them X 2's faster for using them ) i have the residual nerve and muscle function at this point of a high function quad.its been a short hard fall if I am realy having a sleepy day I will drink half a diet coke , but never after 3 PM(That's my sleep pathologists plan). In the summer months I am about 500 miles a year on the odometer out getting the sun and enjoying the lake shore, melatonin can be a double edged sword past a certain point it becomes more of a problem than good ,I have tried every drug on the market with hypnotic properties ,interestingly enough I had little effect with Rozerem which is one of big pharma latest lab brew of melatonin , some swear by it , I swear at it !


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## StarHalo (Feb 21, 2018)

degarb said:


> I guess a new study came out saying that the iPhone yellow night mode wasn't enough. Overall light level matters more. But I do think there's evidence spectrum matters. The formula is not fully understood. Perhaps.



That one book app has a "reverse" mode that gives you gray text on a black background (turn on Night Mode and now it's sepia text on black, can't demonstrate that below,) so easy on the eyes, and you can read and keep your night vision at the same time:


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## Genzod (Feb 21, 2018)

degarb said:


> Polyphase not polyphenol. Auto correct, combined with the wonderful cpf php host that won't let me edit. Today, twice I spent a great deal of time composing, only to have the cpf fail on post and wipe out my work. Once on phone and once on desk.
> 
> I am not complaining, I love having to be forced to retype a second draft, like it was 1986,cause I'm kicking it like it was 1966.



That's happened to me many times, but the auto-save function can restore it. I just restart the comment from reply, go to advanced edit mode and click "restore auto-saved content".


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## Genzod (Feb 21, 2018)

milehigher said:


> I take 5 mg of melatonin and 60 of temazepam i take the melatonin in the evening and the temazepam at bedtime .i use very very little caffeine i do everything decafe ,excercise is a big problem (without long explanation i have competeing diseases one kills my muscles for not using them , the other kills them X 2's faster for using them ) i have the residual nerve and muscle function at this point of a high function quad.its been a short hard fall if I am realy having a sleepy day I will drink half a diet coke , but never after 3 PM(That's my sleep pathologists plan). In the summer months I am about 500 miles a year on the odometer out getting the sun and enjoying the lake shore, melatonin can be a double edged sword past a certain point it becomes more of a problem than good ,I have tried every drug on the market with hypnotic properties ,interestingly enough I had little effect with Rozerem which is one of big pharma latest lab brew of melatonin , some swear by it , I swear at it !



I took 3 mg of melatonin for sleep in the 90's. I laughed when someone in the medical profession mocked me saying stomach acid would destroy the hormone making it inert. My response was, "I guess that means many women taking birth control hormones by mouth are in for an unpleasant surprise?" 

Later, I learned hormone replacement signals the body to reduce production of the natural hormone, making you dependent on the oral one. I'm now glad I didn't take it regularly. Far better when i used 1000 mg of tryptophan and a little sugar on an empty stomach at night 1/2 hour before bed to manufacture serotonin then melatonin. I found that just as effective.


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## degarb (Feb 23, 2018)

Gen, http://www.yorku.ca/eye/lambdas.htm is a good link.






The take away is that there is a saturation level of the rods. As far as a predawn early morning wakeup light positioning goes, I suspect if I had two lights only, I would position them at 45 degrees off center of vision on either side of straight on, rather than totally off to either side.

The take away from the doctor, Gen, is that everyone has theories, but few test those theories. Empirical observation beats theory, every time. It amazes me, though it shouldn't by now, how certain people are about theories they never tested. I have tested many crazy things, and often (perhaps, a third of the time) got results that are the opposite of what you would expect. You just need to be careful, by researching, calculating, consulting many experts, small scale, safety measures, midscale, before full scale, especially if life or property is on the line.... The problem with the Doctor's melatonin advice, is safety has been established, but he had all kinds of opinions, without ever bothering to test. I will say, there is a huge brand difference in effectiveness. So, if one brand doesn't work, try another. Though again, melatonin alone is not enough, it needs no more than half a benedryl 1.5 hours before sleep target, to work all the time. ... Though as you say, anything that works for anything physical condition, is addictive. Asprin, included.


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## Genzod (Feb 23, 2018)

degarb said:


> . ... Though as you say, anything that works for anything physical condition, is addictive. Asprin, included.



Just to be clear, the dependence I implied wasn't of an "addictive" nature per say (as in opiates for example) but rather the tendency for the body to markedly reduce production of the naturally supplied hormone due to the disruption of the body's natural feedback mechanism when an oral one has been substituted.


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## Genzod (Feb 23, 2018)

degarb said:


> Gen, http://www.yorku.ca/eye/lambdas.htm is a good link.



Notice the ordinate axis is in log. A magnitude difference of 1 is 10x greater, and 2 is 100x greater, like the logarithmic geological Richter scale--A 9.0 quake is 10,000x more intense in amplitiude than a 5.0. Rods are _far_ more sensitive than cones with shorter wavelength light. 1000x at 500nm where rods peak. (102.3​/10-0.7​=103​)

One might surmise the closed eye during sleep would be sensitive to small amounts of room light, particularly at 500nm. Therefore, one could use those facts to use room lighting at the appropriate time to prepare the brain for an alert rising.

Pulsed blue light at frequencies above 16-18hz would stimulate beta wave frequencies (associated with alert wakefulness) in the brain, a cup of pulsed blue photon 'coffee' if you will.


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## StarHalo (Feb 23, 2018)

degarb said:


> it needs no more than half a benedryl 1.5 hours before sleep target, to work all the time.



That's diphenhydramine bro, you're drugging yourself to sleep..


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## Genzod (Feb 23, 2018)

StarHalo said:


> That's diphenhydramine bro, you're drugging yourself to sleep..



"Bro", haha. You're so _affectionate_ when you contradict.


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## StarHalo (Feb 23, 2018)

Genzod said:


> "Bro", haha. You're so _affectionate_ when you contradict.



If you're concerned about the wavelengths of light on your rods and cones affecting your sleep while dropping ZzzQuil, you're getting the "bro"..


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## degarb (Feb 24, 2018)

StarHalo said:


> If you're concerned about the wavelengths of light on your rods and cones affecting your sleep while dropping ZzzQuil, you're getting the "bro"..





Aaanyway, I am using 2 of my fan dimmers on two integrated driver 50 watt 6500 cold $1.50 China Led chips, in peripheral vision, as a morning, pre-dawn wake up test. As the one article states there is only so much cool light before the rods saturate, then must crank up the warm. (Though in reality, if you take a spectrometer and peek, the whole spectrum is there, just parts are louder.) 

What I have learned about the $1.50 50W chips with integrated drivers, so far: Well, mounting one 50w to a 90 cubic inch of fine (counting Sq in of 1side) isn't enough to cool it, without a fan, even putting it in a shallow cookie tin, where some heat sucks to the tin. More heat from driver to dissipate, when ID. Fortunately, the integrated circuit allows monitoring of the led heat, lowering current, saving the led, perhaps. The thermal Resistors lower the current to 30 watts on my cpu heat sink cookie tin light, if left on long, as the heat builds up... Adding a few ounces of water cookie tin, tilting tin 45 degrees, so corner of back of heat sink was under water (gfci, everything electric epoxied), this little bit of water gave a 60% improvement in heat and current, allowing 48 watts, instead of 30. It took maybe 2 hour to evaporate away. I did not measure lux to see if efficiency improved... So a worklights, with a water trough, may be practical. Already have to add oil to tools at beginning of each day, buy kerosene, etc., why not add water to your light? I don't see a water trough light working around the house or in an office. Maybe as a backup Mobile worklight, where storage space and dependability (no fan, or pump, to beak) matters. 

There are fan controller boards that can had for $2, which I haven't played with for a year. I will get around to looking up how many watts they can handle. I really don't like lights without a dimmer, neither power tools. This includes my headlamps. Even on the huge worklights, where I don't pay the electric and they can be moved back, there are times where for heat reasons they too need dimming.

Maybe one day, a quality 150lpw+ like Cree will have an integrated 120V driver. For now, seeing one option, which I guess is a 90 lpw epistar, probably 57 lpw after driver loss, if cooled correctly. At best... Still, looking at well over 18,000 lumens, including driver,for $10 (halogen lumen price range) -not including heat sink (which is the real price breaker).


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## ssanasisredna (Feb 26, 2018)

degarb said:


> Aaanyway, I am using 2 of my fan dimmers on two integrated driver 50 watt 6500 cold $1.50 China Led chips, in peripheral vision, as a morning, pre-dawn wake up test. As the one article states there is only so much cool light before the rods saturate, then must crank up the warm. (Though in reality, if you take a spectrometer and peek, the whole spectrum is there, just parts are louder.)
> 
> What I have learned about the $1.50 50W chips with integrated drivers, so far: Well, mounting one 50w to a 90 cubic inch of fine (counting Sq in of 1side) isn't enough to cool it, without a fan, even putting it in a shallow cookie tin, where some heat sucks to the tin. More heat from driver to dissipate, when ID. Fortunately, the integrated circuit allows monitoring of the led heat, lowering current, saving the led, perhaps. The thermal Resistors lower the current to 30 watts on my cpu heat sink cookie tin light, if left on long, as the heat builds up... Adding a few ounces of water cookie tin, tilting tin 45 degrees, so corner of back of heat sink was under water (gfci, everything electric epoxied), this little bit of water gave a 60% improvement in heat and current, allowing 48 watts, instead of 30. It took maybe 2 hour to evaporate away. I did not measure lux to see if efficiency improved... So a worklights, with a water trough, may be practical. Already have to add oil to tools at beginning of each day, buy kerosene, etc., why not add water to your light? I don't see a water trough light working around the house or in an office. Maybe as a backup Mobile worklight, where storage space and dependability (no fan, or pump, to beak) matters.
> 
> ...



Unless that chip with 120V driver on board has a requirement for seriously large external capacitor, then it will have seriously large flicker.

Epistar has no problem hitting 150LPW ... but they don't really make LEDs, only LED die so who knows what's in those cheap LEDs.


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## degarb (Feb 26, 2018)

ssanasisredna said:


> Unless that chip with 120V driver on board has a requirement for seriously large external capacitor, then it will have seriously large flicker.
> 
> Epistar has no problem hitting 150LPW ... but they don't really make LEDs, only LED die so who knows what's in those cheap LEDs.



I am sure there is flicker. However, I am not really noticing it. The ramping works, but as with many other dimmers I have used, there's a somewhat narrow dial range at which it works. Which is, much like all my shower heat adjustment of my life.

I brought back a third dimmer, and paired it with a 3rd 50W wake up test (2 peripheral and one overhead). However, this light is not the 120V integrated driver, rather has the typical Inline mini brick. This light only dims to, guessing, 75% before flicker becomes too obnoxious. Also, an accompanying buzz, reminiscent of florescent lighting. I haven't measured the current saving, yet... And, I believe these China yard lights off ebay do not have enough metal surface area for their wattage; so assuming the dimmer reducing heat probably outweighs any possible driver damage to the off the china shelf, 50 watt light.

I don't think the fan controller is doing anything bad to the $1.50 ID 50w chip from ebay.


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## degarb (Feb 26, 2018)

Interestingly, as the brick driver warms up, the fan controller induced buzzing abates, allowing lower dimming without noticeable flicker. (Maybe, 50% dimming, I'd guess.)

It would be interesting if a driver expert here, can explain why.


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## degarb (Mar 15, 2018)

The fan pwm driver did finally kill the brick driver. However, the integrated on board cob drivers love the fan dimmer. Of course, I really like lights way better if I can dim them, so I just popped another $1.50 50 watt to replace the flood light' chip and driver.



There are a few vital things that I love about the led chips with on board driver:
-I like that the thermal resistor dims the led, if not heatsinked properly.
-No more cost issues buying driver.
-One chip, no driver, allows many alternative light designs.
-I like that I can dim it.

I do not like:
-the additional heat to dissipate.
-No choice of led model.

As listed, the upsides outweigh the downside, for now. 

I wonder if the these could be purchased without the led cob, and we could attach another brand to it. Or if plans to do more exciting brands with integrated drivers. 


My minimal degarb unit of acceptable light from a light small light source, not worn, is 25,000 lumens, with 3 degarb units equal to bare minimum lighting for a real worklight. I had been struggling to find the right amount of lighting for 27 years, until finally achieved it in 2014. 80k lumens was the magic number. I use 120 to 200K,since it is child's play with 1000W mh. They wake me up, which is really just a side effect. 


I am calculating from my experience that I need 10 of these cheap IC cobs to get 1 degarb unit, and 30 to get one semi acceptable real worklight. Doubting any design would be light or handy, even at one degarb unit.

Two high bin cma3090s might equal 26k lumens, plus cost of driver. The higher efficiency might mean less heat sink, but would not hold my breath for anything lightweight and could be whipped around and stored under a car seat. 

As far as a cheap household worklight, these IC cobs work fine. They do current limit themselves as heat sink gets too hot.

Now, why would not all cobs be on copper pcb? It is a heck of a lot of heat that needs to be pulled as quickly as possible from a 50W source. Actually, any modern led driven over 1 watt should be on a copper pcb, imho.

I need to research pwm fan boards that can handle 500 your 1500 watts, to lower the lighting overall cost and form. I don't like toting about these dimmers, though I also use them on my grinder. Also, for how many I want, $14 is way too expensive.


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## StarHalo (Mar 19, 2018)

Have you tried indica?


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## degarb (Mar 19, 2018)

StarHalo said:


> Have you tried indica?



No, never. Does dx.com, fasttech.com, cndirect.com, or intl-outdoor.com sell those leds? How many lpw are they? Do they heat sink well?


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## milehigher (Mar 20, 2018)

If you dont mind it being 10" Whelen continuum series is incredably bright and you can connect as many as 5 together ,i just got a baby pod one 6 led 1900 lumen for running around at night ether spot or flood in white amber or smoked optics interchangable ,theres a video on you tube of a dude testing a 10" in the woods,they are pretty impressive and I believe they are IP69.


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## degarb (Mar 25, 2018)

StarHalo said:


> Have you tried indica?



Researching further into this brand of leds, it appears they only work in high bay lighting and have a high rate of burn out. 

Now, I have also known about 15 people who all got panic attacks, are on Paxil or equivalent, to control the panic attacks for the rest of their lives. The only common thread was use of the Indica brand of leds! Also, have had people come to work for me after waking with this brand, telling me all workday how fast they were, when in reality they were getting little done. On the plus side, they had superior eyesight, and seemed, at least temporarily, easy going. Even seen people's eye glass prescription go to zero. Though I have no real idea if it was the Indica brand or Stevia. 

Now, Milehigher (than StarHalo), those lights are a bit pricey. In mornings I have been using one 50watt cool on either side of my vision, one above, and computer screen straight ahead. So, 150w , $4.50, plus computer screen. I ramp up on the dimmers, assuming accustomed eyes need more light than unaccustomed. Warmer light in center. Still, can't hold a candle to a 1000w mh for waking up, nor walking outside in sunshine. Moving around, goals, music, and a fairly good night sleep help a lot. Probably, would need to lug out the giant MH to get a pale version of Mr Sunshine.


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