# Dorian SQCTP



## precisionworks (Nov 12, 2009)

The brown truck left this today ... the toolpost came with a blank T-nut so that was the first item to machine:







I crept up on the size & ended up with a light tap in fit. The T-nut is threaded in the middle & includes a pair of reamed dowel holes.

The new square shoulder end mill was used to take off excess material. 1000 rpm, .250 DOC, pretty fast hand cranked feed.






The bottom of the SQCTP has matching dowel pin holes if someone needs those.













Internal threading tool & insert






60 degree stand up insert





Overall view of double ended holder





The two square shank holders





Blade style cut off-parting tool (gtn2)





And a boring bar & right hand tool holder





The nicest tool post I've ever seen + four blocks + five indexable tools :twothumbs


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## darkzero (Nov 12, 2009)

Ooh, very nice. I like the way the wedges are designed. :twothumbs


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## darkzero (Nov 12, 2009)

I've always wondered, with most QCTPs that I've seen, with the TP oriented in the common position, what is the threaded hole for on the right face of it? Both the two AXAs I currently have have them. And in your case, the two threaded holes facing towards you?


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## niner (Nov 13, 2009)

Barry, very very nice. Where did you get them and how much?

How is it compare to Aloris's wedge post?


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## precisionworks (Nov 13, 2009)

> I like the way the wedges are designed.


Pretty cool, isn't it. The Triple Wedge Lock is a patented design, meaning that no other USA manufacturers can copy it until 2017. They state: _Triple Action Locking System- a powerful combination of a downward, outward and inward force simultaneously locking the quick change toolholder rigidly and precisely._

Dorian first used it in the coolant through Victory tool post, see page 5 in this newsletter (which is just under 4 MB) http://www.doriantool.com/doriantool/inc/articles/pdf/Tool_Zone_22.pdf



> the two threaded holes facing towards you?








The set screws are part #10, which retain the guide pins (part #8). These are unique to the New SQCTP.



> Where did you get them and how much?


From an eBay seller called Ajax Industries. If you phone & talk with Rocky, ask for the same deal I got - $590 for the set & free shipping. 1-800-543-5998



> How is it compare to Aloris's wedge post?


I've used larger models of the Old SQCTP and the Aloris. Both do a decent job, but neither have the triple wedge lock. My brief testing shows that the tool point repeats within +/- .0001". If anyone has a tool post that does better, I'd like to see it


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## wquiles (Nov 13, 2009)

Very nice Barry - congrats on the new kit - lots of value there for what you paid for!

Thanks much for the pictures


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## Mirage_Man (Nov 13, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> My brief testing shows that the tool point repeats within +/- .0001".



That's outstanding! I need one of those!


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## niner (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks Barry! I'll call up and get a set.

Brian, are you getting one? May be we can set up a group buy


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## precisionworks (Nov 13, 2009)

> lots of value there for what you paid


Exactly my thoughts. If you price only the tool post plus four holders it's around $450, so $190 bought quite a few indexable tools. The threading holder block is neat as the internal bar or the external 60 degree holder can be mounted on either end. And the parting blade holder is the best design I've ever run across.



> I need one of those!


Even though it's way more than I planned to spend (hoping to find one used on eBay) I'm really satisfied. There was not a single flaw in the machined finish on the tool post, holders, and all of the tooling.


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## wquiles (Nov 13, 2009)

Mirage_Man said:


> That's outstanding! I need one of those!



For us with a BXA set of tool post and holders, this would be the equivalent package (same seller as Barry):
Ebay seller of Dorian BXA kit ...

Will


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## unterhausen (Nov 13, 2009)

you people sure do know how to spend a guy's money


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## precisionworks (Nov 13, 2009)

> you people sure do know how to spend a guy's money





Here's the worst part of the story ... I paid $90 less for my lathe than for the tool post. On a positive note, no one on this forum is (yet) using PCD tipped inserts. 

DeBeers used to say that an engagement ring should cost one month's salary. I would imagine that quite a few of us spend that much on tooling every year, which makes the diamond ring quite a lot cheaper.


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## darkzero (Nov 13, 2009)

wquiles said:


> For us with a BXA set of tool post and holders, this would be the equivalent package (same seller as Barry):
> Ebay seller of Dorian BXA kit ...
> 
> Will



Ajax is a good seller. So Will do you pick it up?


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## saltytri (Nov 14, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> On a positive note, no one on this forum is (yet) using PCD tipped inserts.



That might change. I talked to Vic today. :devil:


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## precisionworks (Nov 14, 2009)

> I talked to Vic today. :devil:


He's a nice guy. Tries way too hard to give high quality & low price :thumbsup:

If anyone wants to compare, here are the patent apps from different makers of QCTPs

*WARNING - these are sometimes prescribed as a sleep aid :nana:*:

Aloris
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6230595.pdf

Early Dorian wedge (1993)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5214989.pdf

Later Dorian (2003)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6571671.pdf

Dorian coolant through (Victory series)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7273331.pdf

Could not find the patent info on the SQCTP aka Wedge Lock.


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## wquiles (Nov 14, 2009)

darkzero said:


> Ajax is a good seller. So Will do you pick it up?



I want to, but I recently got a "nice" Dorian knurling tool, so I am spent out for now


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## darkzero (Nov 14, 2009)

wquiles said:


> I want to, but I recently got a "nice" Dorian knurling tool, so I am spent out for now


 
Ah I see. I just assumed you had purchased one since the link you posted was ended. 

That knurling tool is one of the best I hear, can't pass up a deal like that, all else can wait! Can't wait to see what you do with it. :twothumbs


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## darkzero (Nov 16, 2009)

Well, with Barry's post I couldn't resist. Since I'm getting the bigger lathe now & the DTM 75/BXA can't be found at a reasonable price, I went down to Travers today & ordered one of these in the BXA size. Had a $50 coupon so I might as well put it to good use (BTW MSC won't apply their discounts to the DTM & Dorian TPs). Picked it up for $311 plus tax.  

Just wish it wasn't orange & yellow! This means I will have to sell my new DTM 65/AXA that I just got.  Too bad cause I was really looking foward to using it. 

Thanks Barry (I think)! :twothumbs


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## wquiles (Nov 16, 2009)

Isn't it funny how "we" are spending money on tools, but we always seem to find Barry at fault :naughty:


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## darkzero (Nov 16, 2009)

wquiles said:


> Isn't it funny how "we" are spending money on tools, but we always seem to find Barry at fault :naughty:


 
What's funnier is that this is a flashlight forum & I'm not spending any money on flashlights!


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## precisionworks (Nov 16, 2009)

I can't wait to get my finders fee check 

As pricey as the Dorian is, it is really satisfying to use. Surprisingly, the Chinese holders lock up as solidly & repeat as well as the Dorian brand holders. You will really appreciate the engineering once you have a chance to use it.


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## niner (Nov 19, 2009)

Would Dorian's Quadra Indexable tool post be overkill for home hobbyist?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dorian-Quadra-T...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item4388dd907d

I was offered a kit at a good price, similar to the kit above. Looks really nice....


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## unterhausen (Nov 19, 2009)

niner said:


> Would Dorian's Quadra Indexable tool post be overkill for home hobbyist?


there is no such thing as overkill when it comes to quality tools.


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## wquiles (Nov 19, 2009)

unterhausen said:


> there is no such thing as overkill when it comes to quality tools.


+1

When I bought the Bison 6", 6-jaw, set-tru chuck, the chuck was significantly more than the brand new 8x14 HF lathe that I used with the chuck - that was also overkill :devil:


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## niner (Nov 19, 2009)

I forgot who I had directed my questions to. We are a bunch people paying over $500 for a flashlight:nana: Overkill? not a chance.

Let me ask the question differently. Is indexable tool post a useful feature? Or mounting 4 tool holders at the same time?


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## unterhausen (Nov 19, 2009)

Are you paying a $500 premium so you can mount 4 tools at the same time? That might not be the best way to invest in tooling. Could speed up some projects though.


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## wquiles (Nov 19, 2009)

unterhausen said:


> Are you paying a $500 premium so you can mount 4 tools at the same time? That might not be the best way to invest in tooling. Could speed up some projects though.



+1

I think that in a CNC setup, where time is important, and where having the tool already there/adjusted/setup would potentially increase accuracy, then yes, having 4 tools already mounted would be of value. For us with a manual lathe, it would just be pure convenience, and in my opinion not worth the extra $500 premium. Just my 2 cents worth!

Then again, for pure convenience I have TWO of the Aloris 5C BXA Collet holders, so perhaps I should not be the one to give opinions here ...


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## niner (Nov 19, 2009)

Will, being indexable, Quadra tool post can be set to one of 24 positions without re-indexing. How often do you need to set the tool holder at an angle other 90 degree?

You can tell I'm a newbie.


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## wquiles (Nov 19, 2009)

niner said:


> Will, being indexable, Quadra tool post can be set to one of 24 positions without re-indexing. How often do you need to set the tool holder at an angle other 90 degree?
> 
> You can tell I'm a newbie.



Technically, every single time you do threading, and every time you need to cut a taper. 

I am one of the few that cuts threads the "wrong way" and feed straight in (not at 29.5 Deg) so unless cutting a taper, my tool post is most always at the 90 Deg position :nana:


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## unterhausen (Nov 19, 2009)

my toolpost is always at 90 degrees because Phase II included a defective bolt that was just a hair too long and I had to rig it somehow to even tighten down so it wouldn't rotate. I should have sent the whole thing back, but I wanted to cut metal. I suppose I could machine a washer now that I have a toolpost...


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## precisionworks (Nov 19, 2009)

> Quadra tool post can be set to one of 24 positions


Sometimes it's nice to be able to get the point into an odd angle without changing tools, but grabbing the breaker bar behing the lathe takes only about 10 seconds to do the same thing.


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## precisionworks (Nov 25, 2009)

*One little problem*

The SQCTP is taller than the Aloris piston it replaces ... so some of the inserted tools would not go low enough to reach center height:







I couldn't find longer set screws in my big town of 5000, but figured McMaster would stock those. While on their website, it seemed like this would be the time to eliminate the hex nut used to lock the adjusting disc. IMO, trying to jam a wrench turned hex nut against a hand held disc is problematic at best. McMaster also had the threaded locking collars. This arrangement works much better 






The holder block is Best of China, but it works, sort of. The 3/8-24 set screw is a sloppy fit in the threaded hole, so the gap was filled with LocTite. This should hold until a few Aloris & Dorian blocks can be found on eBay.


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## wquiles (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: One little problem*



precisionworks said:


> The SQCTP is taller than the Aloris piston it replaces ... so some of the inserted tools would not go low enough to reach center height:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Clever solution 

I also found the fit/finish, specially the screw/threads very questionable on my China-made holders, but they kind of work OK, so I stick to them. If I had more time, I would make my own.

Besides a more premium steel like 4140, what other choices do I have for material to make more of my own holders?


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## precisionworks (Nov 25, 2009)

> what other choices do I have for material to make more of my own holders?


The four screws that secure the insert holder are under as much compression as can be applied with an allen wrench. Because of the large dovetail recess on the rear of the block, there is little material left between the dovetail & the "back" side of the insert holder. A harder & tougher material (like 4140 pre hardended, or 4144 pre hardened) holds up better in the threaded clamp screw holes, and can be made thinner behind the dovetail.

Any steel would work, even plain jane hot rolled A36. The problem with low carbon structural steels like A36 is their high ductility - almost 30% - which is why they are ideal for boilers & vessels. When someone specs "boiler plate" they usually mean A36. Steels with high ductility produce long stringy chips that don't want to break, so deep hole drilling is a PITA. 

Cold rolled 1018 has half the elongation of A36, which sounds better. But 1018 comes chocked full of unrelieved stresses from the cold rolling process, and as the tools cuts away some of the metal the stresses start to release. You end up with parts that are way out of spec & a high scrap ratio. It also costs more than A36.

If you plan to make something that will be used for a few years or longer, you might as well use the best material available at a reasonable cost. The pre hardened chrome moly steels are an nice combination of adequate hardness (HrC 26-30) and decent machinability. You cannot fly through them like a leaded steel (12L14 or 1144) but you will end up with a material that won't cause problems now or later.


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## darkzero (Nov 26, 2009)

*Re: One little problem*



precisionworks said:


> This should hold until a few Aloris & Dorian blocks can be found on eBay.


 
Try contacting Michael @ precisionspin (guy who sells the DTM stuff on ebay). Judging by the quality of the TP I have no doubt the holders are of equivilent quality to Aloris & Dorian. 

He's a very nice person & has a pretty good stock on DTM accessories. At the time he only had two of the standard AXA holders (H65-1A) but has the oversized AXA holders (H65-1EA) that will accept 5/8 tools. If you email him he will send you a list of his current inventory & prices. His prices are great & also offers quantity discounts (did for me). I ended up only getting the TP from him as I changed to BXA now because of the lathe change but I may just get some stuff from him too.

MSC's having a pretty good offer this black Friday, may be a good time to get some? I know I'm definitely going to take advantage.


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## precisionworks (Nov 27, 2009)

> MSC's having a pretty good offer this black Friday, may be a good time to get some?


I just added a $90 Aloris block to my cart, entered the code, got the screen message that the code had been applied, and the final price was
........ $90 :thumbsdow


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## darkzero (Nov 27, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> I just added a $90 Aloris block to my cart, entered the code, got the screen message that the code had been applied, and the final price was
> ........ $90 :thumbsdow


 
I'm not surprised. Before I made the decision of getting the larger lathe & I was on a spending spree I tried to order some AXA holders from MSC & the discount wouldn't apply to them. In fact the discount wouldn't apply to any of the Dorian, Aloris, or DTM tool posts, sets, or holders. That's when I contacted Michael at Precisionspin & learned about his nice prices. Luckily it didn't since I now have the Dorian BXA TP. 

Today's sale at MSC was a good one, up to 30% off plus free shipping when purchasing 3 or more different items over $99. Well just before ordering I checked Enco for the same items & with only a 15% discount for over $99 I ended paying almost $40 cheaper with shipping than if I was to buy from MSC. Enco also has a free shipping code posted but it wouldn't stack with today's sale code but that's ok.

At Enco the discount does apply to Aloris holders but they don't carry Dorian holders if needed. Ends at 11pm ET but the free shipping offer is good until the end of the year.

I'll stick with the China holders for now. Besides CDCO & Shars what's another place to get the China holders that aren't too shabby?


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## precisionworks (Nov 28, 2009)

> what's another place to get the China holders that aren't too shabby?


According to a friend who imports quite a lot of Chinese tooling, the unpredictability of quality is frustrating. This is what he said:

A small percentage of tooling (as well as machine tools) is built in factories that are compliant with ISO 9001:2008 quality management systems, which assures high quality products ... but priced too high for USA consumption. The remainder of products can vary in quality from first rate to awful.

Imagine a factory with almost zero quality control - no master gages, thread gages, comparators, etc. Mics and calipers without recent calibration certs, used with older machinery with lots of worn parts, on reprocessed metals with variable composition. If all these errors are stacked, parts are made that that do not fit established standards, like the 3/8-24 threaded hole mentioned by both myself & wquiles. 

None of that answers your question, but it does explain some of the variability.


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## darkzero (Nov 28, 2009)

Thanks to Travers, the helpful engineer at Dorian, & with the help of Barry, I finally got the "correct" TP on Wed. To my surprise it was dropped shipped directly Dorian but it was supposed to go to my local Travers for will call.

The TP Travers had in stock was the old style, it was red but had the wedges that moved in & out rather than up & down like the new ones. The people at Travers had no idea what I was talking about. So as Barry suggested I called Dorian, the CS girls had no idea what I was talking about either. I even told them that it was confusing since the part numbers are the same for both style TPs then the lady doubted me even more. To my surprise she suggested that I talked to one of their engineers which totally caught off guard. The engineer new exactly what I was talking about of course & was very helpful. 

As Barry mentioned, I also like the fact that the locking handle can be oriented in any angle the user desires. Can't wait to use it. 


The old one:


















The new one:

























Notice the larger ring up top


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## wquiles (Nov 29, 2009)

Nice!

One of these days I might have one as well - hey, I can always dream, right? :naughty:


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## precisionworks (Nov 29, 2009)

> One of these days I might have one as well


I'd bet a brand new CNMG insert that you'll have one sooner than later 



> it was confusing since the part numbers are the same for both style TPs


+1

Dorian could not possibly make it more difficult to buy the "new" SQCTP. The old style is always black, which is simple enough. The transition style still uses the old style wedge mechanism but with a paint job nearly identical to the new Wedge Lock. It took me a long time and a few phone calls to get it sorted out.

Your photos really help make it clear for the next buyer ...

*The OLD






The NEW




*


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## niner (Nov 29, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> I'd bet a brand new CNMG insert that you'll have one sooner than later
> 
> +1
> 
> ...


 

I learn it in a hard way. I ordered the starter kit from MSC, when it was on sale last week. I was totally surprised when I received it. It came with the "old" style post. I have to call MSC tomorrow and see if they can find me the new style post.


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## precisionworks (Nov 29, 2009)

> I ordered the starter kit from MSC, when it was on sale last week.


How much did they sell it for? Whenever I try to buy Aloris or Dorian from MSC, they discount very little - unless it's a closeout.



> It came with the "old" style post.


I imagine there are quite a few of those sitting on shelves all over the country. They should be able to fix you up with the new style, and will probably have Dorian drop ship directly to you. Ask MSC for a UPS Call Tag so that they pay shipping to return the incorrect one.


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## niner (Nov 29, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> How much did they sell it for? Whenever I try to buy Aloris or Dorian from MSC, they discount very little - unless it's a closeout.
> 
> I imagine there are quite a few of those sitting on shelves all over the country. They should be able to fix you up with the new style, and will probably have Dorian drop ship directly to you. Ask MSC for a UPS Call Tag so that they pay shipping to return the incorrect one.


 
Discount was 25% with free shipping. With tax, it turns out to be $587.73. I was ordering some other stuff, or else I would just order from the place you got yours...

I hope MSC would send a UPS call tag, so I don't have to pay return shipping.


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## precisionworks (Nov 29, 2009)

> I hope MSC would send a UPS call tag


They will, as long as they realize that the error is theirs. If the customer service rep doesn't want to do that, ask to speak with a supervisor - they don't want a big hassle over a $10 return shipping charge.

If you do have to pay to ship it back, a USPS Flat Rate Box, either small or medium, should work at minimal cost.


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## darkzero (Nov 29, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> They will, as long as they realize that the error is theirs. If the customer service rep doesn't want to do that, ask to speak with a supervisor - they don't want a big hassle over a $10 return shipping charge.
> 
> If you do have to pay to ship it back, a USPS Flat Rate Box, either small or medium, should work at minimal cost.


 
If they give you trouble, you can always reference the picture they have posted online of the TP set which now shows a picture of the new wedge style TP.

The small flat rate box is only good for a few holders & the cardboard is pretty thin. Would definitely have to go in a medium.

Hope you get it worked out but I'm sure MSC will take care of it.


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## niner (Nov 29, 2009)

darkzero said:


> If they give you trouble, you can always reference the picture they have posted online of the TP set which now shows a picture of the new wedge style TP.
> 
> The small flat rate box is only good for a few holders & the cardboard is pretty thin. Would definitely have to go in a medium.
> 
> Hope you get it worked out but I'm sure MSC will take care of it.


 
Thanks Barry and Will. Yeah, I see what you mean. The description of their tool post mentions "Triple action locking system", which I believe is the new style. I have to look for the pciture that you are talking about.


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## precisionworks (Nov 29, 2009)

I believe this is the one Will referred to:

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=3347823&PMT4NO=75186471


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## darkzero (Nov 30, 2009)

Yup, that's the one.  If you search for just the tool post by itself it shows the old black one but if you look at the set it shows the new one. However if you click the link to see the catalog it shows & describes the old one.

When I talked to the engineer at Dorian he stated that he didn't think anyone should still have the old style in stock as they stopped making it in 2007. During our conversation & MSC came up, he also stated that he thought for sure MSC shouldn't have the old one in stock either. Looks like there are quite a few of the old style with the red paint job in stock at various vendors across the nation. I'm not sure what the demand for TPs are in the industry but judging by how long they last I can't imagine them to be good sellers so I'm not surprised? 

As Barry mentioned as well as the Dorian engineer, best way to get it for sure is to have one dropped shipped from Dorian as they don't have any of the older ones in stock (they consider them obsolete).


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## precisionworks (Nov 30, 2009)

> I'm not sure what the demand for TPs are in the industry but judging by how long they last I can't imagine them to be good sellers


+1

When you look at the number of CNC machines sold & run daily versus manual machines, it becomes clear that a QCTP is not the fastest moving item on the shelf. Add to that the availability of inexpensive Asian copies of both Aloris & the old style Dorian, and the high end QCTP is not a "must have" item for many users. 

I wouldn't have paid retail ... what a terrible word ... for the Dorian SQCTP had it not had features available nowhere else. From looking at the internal construction, this design will be hard to copy in Shenzhen or Chongqing.

Which is a good thing :nana:


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## niner (Nov 30, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> I believe this is the one Will referred to:
> 
> http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=3347823&PMT4NO=75186471


 
Thank you:thumbsup:

Now I have the prove when I talk to MSC.


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## niner (Nov 30, 2009)

Well, MSC insists they shipped the correct part from their stock. They didn't want to pay for the return shipping. So after a little bit of back and forth, they gave me their UPS account #. In stead of sending a call tag, I have to bring the return package to a UPS counter. At least I don't have to pay for it.

On the other hand, they can drop-ship a new style starter kit from Dorian, but they can't give me any discount. Forget it. I just ordered the kit from Ajax. I should have done it in the first place.

Will and Barry, thanks for the help.


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## precisionworks (Nov 30, 2009)

> I just ordered the kit from Ajax.


Nice to hear a happy ending to a frustrating experience. From what happened to both you & Will, this probably will not be the last time an old style SQCTP gets shipped :sigh:


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## cmacclel (Apr 4, 2010)

It's all Barry's fault!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160415997484&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


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## wquiles (Apr 4, 2010)

cmacclel said:


> It's all Barry's fault!
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160415997484&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT



Awesome buy !!!


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## Tom Anderson (Apr 4, 2010)

wquiles said:


> Awesome buy !!!



+1 Great score! :twothumbs


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## cmacclel (Apr 4, 2010)

I'm looking to possibly make a fixture like the dorian victory 

http://www.industrydepot.com/Images/DVGangTool04.jpg


So I figured A beefy toolpost would be needed.

Mac


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## darkzero (Apr 4, 2010)

cmacclel said:


> I'm looking to possibly make a fixture like the dorian victory


 
Nice score, that's an awseome price.

Please post your gang holder if you make it!


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## wquiles (Apr 5, 2010)

darkzero said:


> Please post your gang holder if you make it!



+1


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## Torque1st (Apr 7, 2010)

darkzero said:


> Please post your gang holder if you make it!



I thought this site did not allow porno...


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## precisionworks (Apr 7, 2010)

Only tools/tooling with appropriate attire are allowed ... paint, powdercoat, hard ano, plating, etc.


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## gadget_lover (Apr 7, 2010)

I beg your Pardon! All my tool holders are as naked as the day their creator made them! I like milled aluminum. Too much?

Daniel


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## PEU (Jun 13, 2010)

darkzero said:


>



How much does one of these TP65A QCTP cost these days? I'm traveling to USA next month and if the price is right I could buy one


Pablo


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## darkzero (Jun 13, 2010)

PEU said:


> How much does one of these TP65A QCTP cost these days? I'm traveling to USA next month and if the price is right I could buy one
> 
> 
> Pablo


 
Pablo, DTM is no longer in business. There's a guy on ebay who purchased all of their remaining stock, Mike of Precision Spin, & is who I got mine from. 

Looks like he still has 3 left (he had 8 left when I bought mine). Once they're gone they're gone. http://cgi.ebay.com/DTM-TP65A-Quick...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f2f188f8

I paid & sold mine for $225, if you contact him he might give it to you for that same price but at that time he had a best offer option.

I never got to use mine since I ended up getting a bigger lathe & tool post but it's a very nice tool post & if you search on the net others also say the same.


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## PEU (Jun 13, 2010)

googling around I found a post of yours at PM comparing it's size to a chinese clone, how was the quality of the clones, or their main defect in your personal opinion?

There is a 3:1 difference in price I want to know if its the same quality wise. 

Thanks!


Pablo


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## darkzero (Jun 14, 2010)

PEU said:


> googling around I found a post of yours at PM comparing it's size to a chinese clone, how was the quality of the clones, or their main defect in your personal opinion?
> 
> There is a 3:1 difference in price I want to know if its the same quality wise.
> 
> ...


 
I'm afraid I can't comment much as I don't have much experience with QCTPs as others here. I assume you're thinking of this photo:







That's my very first QCTP which is an AXA size clone from Lathemaster. The most noticeable difference over others is that the wedges are sloppy compared the name brand ones. The DTM wedges are very solid. I was told the founders of DTM were former employees at Aloris & improved on Aloris' design. The DTM has guides for the wedges, perhaps this might be part of the "improved design" & makes the DTM so much more solid?








I also had a BXA wedge style clone which was also very sloppy compared to the Dorian. The only other tool posts I've used are piston style (Armstrong & Aloris) in shop class. I don't like how the lock up feels but I'm not sure if that's just the way pistons feel or because they've had years of abuse from students.

I would say the DTM is well worth the money & one would probably get many many years of repeatable use out of it as any other good quality tool post. Was it worth the money for me? Probably not. I know I would have been just as well off with the clone tool post & I never had an issue with it. But even knowing this I would have bought (& did) the nicer tool post anyway.


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## olephart (Jun 14, 2010)

I've been using a Phase II AXA wedge type for 20 years. It still locks up as tight as anything else. The threads on the closing lever were loose (shocking) and I hated the shape and feel of the lever, so I made one.

Other than pride of ownership issues, I don't see much practical difference. I spent the savings upgrading stuff that really mattered. If I had a lot of cash to blow or was making a living at this, I might think otherwise.


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## precisionworks (Jun 14, 2010)

> how was the quality of the clones, or their main defect


If you can tolerate unhardened or poorly hardened parts, sloppy fit, and tool point heights that don't repeat - buy China :nana:

The difference is like comparing a cheap hamburger to excellent ribs or steak - both do the job, but the experience is totally different.

I bought the Dorian AXA Super Quick Change for the South Bend & used it for a short time before buying the bigger lathe. Here's the one I have:

http://http://cgi.ebay.com/Dorian-Quick-Change-Tool-Post-SET-AXA-Up-12-NEW-/260558762130?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item3caa833092

I'd like $500 for the set (delivered anywhere in the USA), which is $180 less than it sells for today.


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## 65535 (Jun 14, 2010)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dorian-Quick-Ch...rk_Holding&hash=item3caa833092#ht_2114wt_1026

Fixed your link Barry.


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## unterhausen (Jun 14, 2010)

I would love to have a Dorian or Aloris, but my Phase II is hardly the weak point of my lathe. I don't think I have ever had to do anything to compensate for its weaknesses. It's on my list of things to replace someday, I figure I'll get most of my money out of it. The Chinese toolholders I have bought are not quite up to the Phase II standards, but they also are not bad enough to cause problems with machining. So I guess I would hold out at least until Enco has a sale on the Phase II and not settle for one of the un-branded Chinese tool posts


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## wquiles (Jun 14, 2010)

unterhausen said:


> I would love to have a Dorian or Aloris, but my Phase II is hardly the weak point of my lathe. I don't think I have ever had to do anything to compensate for its weaknesses. It's on my list of things to replace someday, I figure I'll get most of my money out of it. The Chinese toolholders I have bought are not quite up to the Phase II standards, but they also are not bad enough to cause problems with machining. So I guess I would hold out at least until Enco has a sale on the Phase II and not settle for one of the un-branded Chinese tool posts



My BXA Phase II did work OK, but it did not have the feel nor the solid lockup than my restored BXA DTM has - it is like a bank vault, but also very smooth.


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## plasmaman (Jun 15, 2010)

darkzero said:


> I'm afraid I can't comment much as I don't have much experience with QCTPs as others here. I assume you're thinking of this photo:
> 
> I would say the DTM is well worth the money & one would probably get many many years of repeatable use out of it as any other good quality tool post. Was it worth the money for me? Probably not. I know I would have been just as well off with the clone tool post & I never had an issue with it. But even knowing this I would have bought (& did) the nicer tool post anyway.



Will
Can you say whether the standard clone toolholders (250 series) fit the DTM AXA toolpost?
I am thinking about changing my clone toolpost (code 250-200), but have quite a few holders (16mm tools) - will they fit the DTM?
If not I might be tempted by Barry's Dorian AXA set!
John


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## darkzero (Jun 15, 2010)

plasmaman said:


> Will
> Can you say whether the standard clone toolholders (250 series) fit the DTM AXA toolpost?
> I am thinking about changing my clone toolpost (code 250-200), but have quite a few holders (16mm tools) - will they fit the DTM?
> If not I might be tempted by Barry's Dorian AXA set!
> John


 
The clone AXA holders should fit any AXA (100 series) size tool post. However you mentioned 250-200 & 16mm holders. 250-200 is BXA (200 series) size tool post. AXA/100 are for 12mm tools. 

Good luck finding a DTM TP75A (BXA/200 series), they're impossible to find. Will (wquiles) put in some hard work to get himself a working TP75A.


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## wquiles (Jun 15, 2010)

Yup, I could never find a new one by itself (although I though MSC showed they had one starter kit for $600-800), let alone a good working one, but found a partially broken example on Ebay which I then restored.


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## plasmaman (Jun 15, 2010)

darkzero said:


> The clone AXA holders should fit any AXA (100 series) size tool post. However you mentioned 250-200 & 16mm holders. 250-200 is BXA (200 series) size tool post. AXA/100 are for 12mm tools.
> 
> Good luck finding a DTM TP75A (BXA/200 series), they're impossible to find. Will (wquiles) put in some hard work to get himself a working TP75A.



Aha!
Thanks guys - I'm not that familiar with the AXA, BXA etc codes over here - so it looks like my clone 250 series holders need a BXA series toolpost.......
back to the wishing well....


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## PEU (Jun 16, 2010)

Can someone help me to check if my current toolholders would work with an AXA QCTP?

I need these dimensions:






Thanks!


Pablo


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## olephart (Jun 17, 2010)

Here's a quick measurement of a Chinese AXA. Probably no 2 alike.

A = 1.645"

B = 1.373"

C = .388"


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## PEU (Jun 17, 2010)

wow, my toolholders are tiny  Thanks!


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## plasmaman (Jun 28, 2010)

plasmaman said:


> Aha!
> Thanks guys - I'm not that familiar with the AXA, BXA etc codes over here - so it looks like my clone 250 series holders need a BXA series toolpost.......
> back to the wishing well....




Just reporting back after your helpful comments guys. You were right of course and the 200 series clones are equivalent to BXA size.
Here in UK the Dorian new new new SDN30BXA (triple wedge) appears unavailable, and shipping a heavy lump from Rocky at Ajax was way tooo pricey (around $800 for the FTB kit) so I found the last 'old' new (ie red) SDN30BXA at MSC (£180 plus tax) with free shipping.
Machined up the T nut and its sweet.

But the big news is I decided to stick with my clone toolholders (I have 10 and need a few more). My biggest beef with these is the totally crappy set screws they use. The allen/hex socket is awful, sometimes undersized, soft,not centred, etc etc - a complete lottery if you want to change a tool sometimes.
Go to the bay and look for seller 'bardpaper' - he (Don in Charles City VA) - has heaps of German made M10 20mm dog point set screws in S/S for 10 bucks for a box of 100 screws!!
Throw away all those chinese horrors and rebuild all your clone toolholders with these for cents. They have a nice, deep true 5mm socket and I torqued them up to 18nm.
Now just waiting on my McMaster threaded collars so I can throw away the collar nuts, and I reckon these modified toolposts are as good as......when mounted on a superb Dorian BXA post.
John


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## precisionworks (Jun 28, 2010)

> M10 20mm dog point set screws


 Asian tool blocks (everything from China) uses ISO fasteners, but Dorian & Aloris use ANSI screws. One will sometimes force fit into the other but that rarely works well.



> just waiting on my McMaster threaded collars so I can throw away the collar nuts


+1

All my Aloris & Dorian blocks have the threaded collar instead of the hex nut. They are much easier to use & never move by accident.


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## plasmaman (Jun 28, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Asian tool blocks (everything from China) uses ISO fasteners, but Dorian & Aloris use ANSI screws. One will sometimes force fit into the other but that rarely works well.
> 
> +1
> 
> All my Aloris & Dorian blocks have the threaded collar instead of the hex nut. They are much easier to use & never move by accident.



More language barrriers!
ISO = metric
ANSI = UNC/UNF
right?

Yes, the clone toolholders I have use M10 setscrews. I don't have experience of quality holders such as Dorian and Aloris, but guess that they use UNC threads as they are made in US.
These M10 stainless dog point screws are a straight replacement for the metric screws that are supplied in the asian clone holders and are light years better.
I guess you won't need to replace the screws in the US made holders as I am sure they will be of much better quality (and the M10s don't fit!)
john


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## precisionworks (Jun 28, 2010)

> More language barrriers!
> ISO = metric
> ANSI = UNC/UNF
> right?


Exactly 



> you won't need to replace the screws in the US made holders


New holders don't need replacement screws but used ones often do. I picked up 32 new grub screws for the last 8 holders that were purchased - most of those screws were pretty sorry. Also replaced all 8 height adjustment screws with new Allen set screws that are longer than standard, as most of my holders sit low on the tool post - 14" swing is close to the bottom end of the CXA range for center height.


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## darkzero (Jun 30, 2010)

plasmaman said:


> I decided to stick with my clone toolholders (I have 10 and need a few more). My biggest beef with these is the totally crappy set screws they use. The allen/hex socket is awful, sometimes undersized, soft,not centred, etc etc


 
I agree. The stock set screws in my clone holders are just as you described. Some varied in length & my biggest gripe were the off center hex socket & sloppy threads.

I also replaced all of my set screws with hardware from Mcmaster. Aside from the crappy quality, two reasons why I change them, one is because of the hex size. All the bolts on my lathe are metric so I keep a metric hex handle set nearby. I have the same manufacture holders as my AXAs but strangely the M10 set screws on the BXAs have 3/16" hex sockets. It's annoying having to keep an additional 3/16" hex handle around.

I found this very odd & have only encountered one other time that I had a metric/sae combo on a bolt. Generally a M10 set screw should have a 5mm hex socket but these sure enough have a 3/16" hex socket. A 5mm hex is way too loose & even the 3/16" is not a force tight fit.

Secondly, I also sand down the sharp cup points on at the set screws which gets old everytime I buy more holders. I hate sharp cup point set screws digging into my tools especially on boring bars which get adjusted frequently. With the replacements I now have better fitting screws, 5mm hex socket, & no need to sand down the cup points.

I wish I could afford all Dorian holders but that would take me a lifetime just to get how many clone holders I have now. I have two Dorian holders now & I can tell they are much harder than the clone holders much like how my Dorian tools are much harder than some other tools I have. Makes me wonder if the clone holders are even hardened at all.


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## precisionworks (Jun 30, 2010)

> I wish I could afford all Dorian holders


There are more used Aloris & Dorian holders than you can imagine, both on eBay and on used tooling sites. 







The six holders above (four Aloris & two Dorian, all CXA-1) cost $85.00 at http://www.shop.yourtoolingstore.com/main.sc . All these are "experienced" tool holders, meaning they needed new screws or height adjusters, cleaning & a touch of Brownell's cold blue ... but you can't beat $14.16 each 

He has more in stock (individually) for $34.99, and will try to make a deal if you want more than one.


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## unterhausen (Jul 1, 2010)

I guess it's too much to hope that he might have BXA toolholders hidden in the back somewhere?


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## darkzero (Jul 1, 2010)

unterhausen said:


> I guess it's too much to hope that he might have BXA toolholders hidden in the back somewhere?


 
Yup, man, wouldn't that be a treat. 

I've kept my eye out for Dorian BXA holders on ebay but they don't pop out too often so even at used prices it seems it would take me way too long to aquire a nice collection of them. It seems the DA & CXA size pop out all the time.




precisionworks said:


> a touch of Brownell's cold blue


 
Do they really touch up well? I tried touching up some clone holders before & the Brownell's didn't do a damn thing no matter how good or what I cleaned them with. It only seems to be effective on _absolutely_ bare steel.

Does the Brownell's 44/40 formula work any better? I have the Dicropan stuff.


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## precisionworks (Jul 1, 2010)

> Do they really touch up well?


All my used Aloris & Dorian blocks needed some TLC ... sometimes quite a lot of TLC  Both the Dorian CXA-1 holders are very old, having no roll stamping at all, just a faint etching along the bottom face - they colored perfectly. As did everything Aloris. I've never tried the cold blue on any Chinese holders, as there are no longer any in the shop.


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## darkzero (Apr 19, 2012)

Hope you don't mind me posting here, didn't want to create a new thread. Wanted to share this deal.

My current largest boring bar is a solid carbide 3/4" x 10" SCLCR-3 but I needed something a bit more heavier duty to use negative inserts. Scored a brand new Kenametal 1" x 12" MCLCR-4 & was using it with a common boring bar holder.

Some time ago I scored a practically unused Dorian HD boring bar holder which I've been using the 3/4" bar in. 







I really like the Dorian holder since I don't really have to mess with alignment everytime I adjust the bar. So I was looking to buy another one for the 1" bar even if that meant paying full price on it. I came across a $30 discount code for this place called Zoro Tools, they had the holder listed for $102.25 plus free shipping. I took a chance and ordered it for $72.25 shipped. Took just over a week to ship it but once it did I received it the next day.

Sure enough, I got the holder I was looking for & at an excellent price. Only $20 more than what I paid for the first one & this one was brand new.


















I'm not sure when/if the coupon code is expired, I think they allow a discount to be applied only once per customer. The $30 code is FOX312. Hopefully it might still work if anyone is interested. I tried to apply it again today & it came up invalid for me.


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## wquiles (Apr 19, 2012)

darkzero said:


> I'm not sure when/if the coupon code is expired, I think they allow a discount to be applied only once per customer. The $30 code is FOX312. Hopefully it might still work if anyone is interested. I tried to apply it again today & it came up invalid for me.



I tried today and it no longer works, however, thanks to the "magic" of Google, I found another one "snowday" which takes $15 off (over $100) and also ships free. I used it to buy a Dorian D30BXA-7-71C:






Like you, I already have one, which I use with my super sharp carbide-tipped cutoff bar (fantastic for Delrin due to being supper sharp), but I needed a second holder for a thinner cut-off bar I recently bought (ISCAR 19-1):






I have been "hunting" for that Dorian holder for months, and not only Zoro Tools had the Dorian holder cheaper than everyone else by a good $25-30, but with the extra $15 off (snowday) and free shipping, it was easily the BEST deal I have found, so I pulled the trigger 

Thanks much,
Will


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## darkzero (Apr 19, 2012)

No problemo Will, glad you scored too! 

Funny, I have that same 7-71C holder as you that I got the same week I got the first Dorian boring bar holder. But I never got around to getting a parting blade for it. The last one I had that actually would fit it I gave to my brother with the 8X14. I love using the Manchester parting tools so much that I haven't wanted to try anything else.


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## wquiles (Apr 19, 2012)

darkzero said:


> I love using the Manchester parting tools so much that I haven't wanted to try anything else.


I am the same exact way with the Iscar Do-Grip stuff. The inserts have a very unique shape/chip breaker that folds the cut metal inward so that the width of the chip is narrower than the slot in which they came from, which makes for a much smaller change of chips getting in the way and jamming things up 

Will


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## darkzero (Apr 19, 2012)

I know what you mean. It's a great feature & you can really tell the difference. I often would rather use the parting tool than the bandsaw as much as I can, much quicker for those days I don't feel like waiting around.  And at my rate, the inserts last me a very long time.


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## precisionworks (Apr 20, 2012)

Parting off with a 10" or smaller machine is questionable at best. A 12" machine with good tooling does a nice job. IMO the most important point to remember is that narrower is better. For my 14" machine a 2.3mm (.093") insert is the maximum useful size. As long as the lubricator is pointed directly down at the insert the parting off goes well. 

Some people get into trouble when the insert breaks through the inner wall, jams, breaks the insert, etc. Stopping the machine before breakthrough will eliminate this & a band saw or hack saw can finish the cut.


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## unterhausen (Apr 20, 2012)

I use the carbide cutoff blades for that reason, I'd always be breaking inserts. The blades are less than $20 and you can grind off the part that you just broke by pushing too hard when it breaks through. Although if I was parting off something expensive, I'd probably want to use a tool with inserts and go slow.

Back when I used a 9" Southbend, parting off was the most annoying aspect of any job. With the 13" lathe I have now, the grip on the part is almost always the weakest link, but I generally have no problems unless I'm careless.


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