# PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle?



## milkyspit (Aug 9, 2003)

I've embarked on a project to construct an electronic candle suitable for power outage use, or general room illumination anytime. For the time being, I'll call this gizmo the *Milky Candle*, though I'm certainly open to suggestions of a different name. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif (Hey, this name was better than "Spit Candle"! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Briefly, the Milky Candle has several design goals and will probably be developed in a few phases. It was born out of my selfish desire to design a cheap light (so I could have lots of 'em) to illuminate every room in my home during a power outage, to be fairly compact (easy storage), and to provide *runtime of at least 24 hours*.

I had gathered some background information for the project in this thread, and it was here that I received an unexpected outpouring of support, as well as enthusiasm at my tentative choice of CR123A cells for the initial power source. This was what convinced me once and for all to proceed, and it added a new design goal: offer good performance even with heavily drained batteries, and suck as much remaining juice out of them as possible. With these goals in mind, the Milky Candle also becomes a *recycling device*; it allows you to *fuel it with spent cells* from Surefire flashlights, EL Blaster VI, Space Needle II, and others... for some of us, that's essentially a "free" power source! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif

For those who prefer rechargeables, the 2xCR123A configuration of the Milky Candle should support use of the Pila 168S (is that the right one?) Li-ion cells.

The initial prototype is running off a pair of CR123A cells. Output consists of a single 9200mcd white Nichia, and the output is regulated at 30mA. The light should run with regulation until each CR123A cell has only a few percentage points of capacity remaining, and at that point the light will switch to direct drive, with diminishing brightness of the Nichia until nothing remains. Suffice to say that you could then throw your spent cells in the trash guilt-free. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif

At 30mA regulated output, the Milky Candle will theoretically offer something on the order of 40 hours runtime from fresh cells, and I'm guessing even heavily depleted cells should give perhaps 5-10 hours' runtime here. There will probably also be some means of "dialing down" the output, which could extend runtime into the *hundreds* of hours, although of course at a diminished (but still regulated) level of brightness.

The physical design isn't set yet, but I'm aiming for a roughly candlelike shape, including the ability to stand upright for off-the-ceiling illumination. I'll probably also try to incorporate some sort of removable diffuser, which would make the light more direct, which would turn the candle into something more like a table lantern as well as minimize glare from the LED. Milky Candle will probably be splash-resistant to some degree, but I'm not trying too hard to make it completely waterproof, nor is it likely to matter for its intended uses. Then again, I could be wrong, so please speak up... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

The later phases of the project will aim generally to improve the Milky Candle as well as make it more modular in nature: power it with different sizes and/or numbers of cells; plug varying numbers of Nichias into the output side; perhaps even turn off the regulation circuit completely to accommodate a spare Opalec NewBeam module (which itself is regulated) if you have one lying around, for example. The point is to end up with a super long-running, super flexible electronic candle that can run well with whatever you've got in the house.

Sometime in the near future I hope to post a photo or two of the initial prototype, which is horribly ugly yet already surprisingly functional. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Later, I hope to produce a small run of them for anyone interested... lots more info to come about that!

Until then, you might want to hold onto your CR123A discards... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## PaulW (Aug 9, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

A great idea. I have a growing box of spent 123s. I cycle them from light to light, the last one being an Arc LS. It sounds like your Milky Candle might get some decent run time from these otherwise dead batteries.

Paul


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## milkyspit (Aug 9, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Thanks for the kind words, Paul. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Er, anyone mind sending me a few cells that fell out of regulation in their Arc LS? I'd like to test to see what kind of runtimes my prototype squeezes out of them.

If anyone's willing, please PM me for my mailing address.


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## hotbeam (Aug 9, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Good project Milkly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif I too use the Arc LS to suck up left over juice. As you said, it will make throwing away 123's after putting them in the Candle a lot less guilty /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif When the protos are ready, show us some pics.


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## JonSidneyB (Aug 9, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

since this are coming from Single cell sourses and Multi Cell sources. Shouldn't it be driven from a single cell?


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## milkyspit (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*JonSidneyB:* Eventually the goal is for the Milky Candle to accept a range of different battery configurations, including single cell. You're right; there's no particular reason that couldn't be done.

For simplicity, the first version will focus on a pair of CR123A cells. For one thing, they work very well with the present regulator circuit. In addition, two cells allows long runtimes between battery changes, even if the batteries are already partially spent (such as coming from a Space Needle II, for example), and two cells allows battery voltage in each to be driven significantly closer to zero. For disposable cells, at least, that means we'll get more of the juice out than might be possible with a single cell.


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## milkyspit (Aug 11, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Please, please, *does anyone have some almost-dead CR123A's* they'd like to donate to my cause, so I can test the Candle on partially depleted cells? Your throwaways from SF, SNII, EL Blaster VI, etc., would all be great to test. Even discards from ARC LS!

If you can help -- and I hope some of you can -- *please PM me* to tell me who you are and what the cells were used in, and I'll reply with my mailing address. I could also Paypal a little cash to *cover your postage*, just let me know how much you need.

Hope someone out there can help!

Please? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## hotbeam (Aug 11, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Will get some 123s to you ~2wks. They came from my SNII


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## milkyspit (Aug 11, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Understood, *hotbeam*. Many thanks! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif


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## TOB9595 (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Great Project Milkyspit!!
I'll have to get some spent cells now to contribute to the light.
Tom


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## milkyspit (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Here it is! Well, at least the horribly ugly first prototype, which at least is already fairly functional. Without further ado...







What you're seeing in this photo is the regulation circuitry of the Milky Candle epoxied to a small switch (estimated 43 hrs. runtime on high, 200 hrs. on low), a 9200mcd white Nichia LED, creative use of a rubber band as circuit clamp, a cannibalized battery tube from a Brinkmann Legend LX (the bi-pin socket at top is handy for poking wires into), and a PVC pipe coupling that just happened to be sized perfectly to act as a stand for the whole mess.

It's not much to look at but it does work! I've tried it around the house, and the high setting illuminates a typical room nicely; even the low setting offers a surprising amount of light, actually well beyond the realm of a nightlight (which I initially thought was all the low setting would be). A "real" nightlight mode might run for something like 750 hours! That's a full MONTH, hee hee. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Of course, these figures are based on fresh CR123A cells. With heavily used ones, perhaps you'll get 5-10 hours runtime on high, 50 hrs. on low, and 250 hrs. in the hypothetical nightlight mode. Still not bad!

A small diffuser (actually a translucent plastic cap from a small bottle) turns the candle into a tiny table lantern, changing things from bounce-off-ceiling illumination to more direct lighting.

Incidentally, the cells powering the light in the photo are pretty thoroughly depleted discards from my SNII, though you'd never know it here.

Next is to refine the circuit and design a nifty housing for the whole thing.


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## TOB9595 (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

You're right
It is horribly ugly
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Great work looks real good
Nice pic too. Candlelight how romantic
Tom


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## hotbeam (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Ahhhh.... I see the light. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif That will be nice as mood lighting. Have you tried sticking a NX05 over the 5mm? What would that be like? I can see the potential for you here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## milkyspit (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

I also want to offer thanks to *Doug Owen* for his assistance in my quest for a suitable regulation circuit. It meant a lot to me, Doug. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just wanted to take care of that before it slipped my mind! He certainly deserves the thanks.


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## Rothrandir (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

very nice!

and truly, one of the ugliest creatures i've seen. no, i'm not just saying that to be nice /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## shankus (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Those white LEDs with the inverted cone type package would be interesting in this application.

It _is_ prettier than the dimable squash light, though.


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## MR Bulk (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Milky,

Congrats on executing the mod. Speaking of "execute" -- J/K. The polite small talk aside, it does remind me of an old tugboat with the ropes and winch equipment hung from her sides, drifting upright in a foggy harbor with but a dim light to guide her way -- especially with the ancient lantern shape of that LED, thrusting upward on its pole (leads).

Thankfully I finally recognized the Legend LX body -- there's hope yet!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Darkstar (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Really good idea, would make a great tent light. Any thoughts on selling them? How much will you pay us to take them? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif Seriously any thoughts on a price range for a finished product?


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## Zelandeth (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

As for the brighter than expected Low mode, I understand the dilemma. I stuck a new blue LED into an emergency lighting fixture in here last week...now the entire darn room ends up lit up blue at night...should have seen that coming I guess.

Nice product though. I generally work on the basis of "if it works, I don't really care what is looks like" - and that thing quite obviously works. And idea of whether they'll be for sale, and if so, how much? And I hereby volunteer as a tester if required!

Keep up the good work!


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## milkyspit (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Last night I compared the light output of the Milky Candle prototype to my Infinity Ultra-G, which as far as I know is the same grade of Nichia LED. For both closeup and distance lighting (the latter onto a wall 20 feet away), both appear to provide identical output. The funny thing is that the Ultra-G was drawing current of either 115mA or 305mA, depending on which of two alkaline cells I used while measuring. The Milky Candle, of course, draws a rock-steady 30mA in the high setting. All readings were taken from the battery (input) side of things, so I don't really know how much current makes its way to the Ultra-G's LED. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Some of the additional current the Ultra-G draws is understandable since it needs to boost the 1.5V source to power the Nichia, but even at the lower 115mA reading, current flow seems awfully high to achieve when the Candle does with 30mA!

At any rate, the Candle seems plenty efficient by comparison. (Also, 4AA ought to power it nicely as an alternative to the 2x123 arrangement.)

Now to respond to some questions/comments...

*TOB9595:* Thanks! Just imagine for now that the wires hanging down are the wax trails running down the side of a traditional candle. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

*hotbeam:* I just tried putting both NX01 and NX05 optics over the Nichia. Granted, these optics were designed for LS rather than a 5mm Nichia, so I didn't expect too much, but surprisingly they're not bad! The NX05 takes the Nichia's more floodlike effect and essentially narrows it into a moderate-width, fairly defined hotspot. The NX01 is a little more interesting, resulting in TWO nested hotspots! The outer ring looks much like the one from the NX05, but in addition to that there is an even brighter, smaller ring in the center of this. Most interesting of all is that both optics made the beam look markedly more white, whereas the instant I would remove the optics the light would become strikingly more blue in appearance. Anyone have an explanation for this? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

*Rothrandir: * Thank you! We'll work on a makeover before the prom... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

*shankus: * Many thanks. Er, I know the lighting source in the squash light will last 100,000 hours, but will the squash itself? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

*MR Bulk: * Thanks for a compliment from the master. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif I do see the tugboat imagery! Neat. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif (Maybe I could house it in a little model of a tugboat?)

*Darkstar:* Hadn't thought of a tent light, but you're absolutely right. I'd better consider including a way to hang the light up for this purpose. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

As far as selling the Candle? Yes, I'd absolutely like to do that. It's been a goal all along to make this a bigger project than for just myself. But at what price? The components and Nichia were deliberately chosen for low cost, so I think most of the final price tag will have to do with what the housing ends up costing. I have absolutely no idea of that yet. I could say under $50, but that still doesn't say much. Actually, $20 would be very cool, but don't hold me to that. We'll see!


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## milkyspit (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Zelandeth said:*
As for the brighter than expected Low mode, I understand the dilemma. I stuck a new blue LED into an emergency lighting fixture in here last week...now the entire darn room ends up lit up blue at night...should have seen that coming I guess.

Nice product though. I generally work on the basis of "if it works, I don't really care what is looks like" - and that thing quite obviously works. And idea of whether they'll be for sale, and if so, how much? And I hereby volunteer as a tester if required!

Keep up the good work! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Zelandeth, just missed your post in my group reply. Yes, the light will be for sale when ready, and if I need a tester I'll keep you in mind! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Pricewise, I really don't know what to say; the components are cheap enough, but the housing itself will be a big factor in pricing. If you see a good, inexpensive candidate for housing the Candle, let me know! And thanks for the compliment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Doug Owen (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*
Last night I compared the light output of the Milky Candle prototype to my Infinity Ultra-G, which as far as I know is the same grade of Nichia LED. For both closeup and distance lighting (the latter onto a wall 20 feet away), both appear to provide identical output. The funny thing is that the Ultra-G was drawing current of either 115mA or 305mA, depending on which of two alkaline cells I used while measuring. The Milky Candle, of course, draws a rock-steady 30mA in the high setting. All readings were taken from the battery (input) side of things, so I don't really know how much current makes its way to the Ultra-G's LED. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Some of the additional current the Ultra-G draws is understandable since it needs to boost the 1.5V source to power the Nichia, but even at the lower 115mA reading, current flow seems awfully high to achieve when the Candle does with 30mA!

At any rate, the Candle seems plenty efficient by comparison. (Also, 4AA ought to power it nicely as an alternative to the 2x123 arrangement.)



[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you do need a new meter.....I"ve measured a number of Ultras and Arc AAAs, they seem to run just under 250 mA at 1.5 Volts. Say 350 to 375 mW, or so. I understand the LEDs are driven at about 60 mA, which makes sense to me, as that's about 60% efficiency. I did some 'A/B tests' with a Nichia and an Ultra but couldn't resolve it all that well (I'd get two to one changes in LED current 'matches'), even with my light meter.....

Yes, it's hard to beat a series regulator in many of these cases. For an even more impressive match, try *three* NiMH cells (not four) and see what you get. It's very easy to hold over 90% efficiency, and when the battery voltage does drop, the cells are dead.

As far as a package goes, consider a piece of white plastic pipe. Perhaps with a custom made end plug holding the LED.....

Doug Owen


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## LEDmodMan (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

So did you use a candle flicker circuit in this or not?


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## Ginseng (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Nice work Milky. I love it when an idea comes spewing out of one's mind and is rendered in all its raw glory. 

Well done.

Wilkey


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## milkyspit (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*LEDmodMan said:*
So did you use a candle flicker circuit in this or not? 

[/ QUOTE ]

*LEDmodMan*, not yet. It's still under consideration while I move forward on some testing as well as figuring out what type of housing to fit the Candle into. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## milkyspit (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Doug Owen said:*
Perhaps you do need a new meter.....I"ve measured a number of Ultras and Arc AAAs, they seem to run just under 250 mA at 1.5 Volts. Say 350 to 375 mW, or so. I understand the LEDs are driven at about 60 mA, which makes sense to me, as that's about 60% efficiency. I did some 'A/B tests' with a Nichia and an Ultra but couldn't resolve it all that well (I'd get two to one changes in LED current 'matches'), even with my light meter.....

Doug Owen 

[/ QUOTE ]

*Doug*, Wouldn't the current draw from battery for the Ultra-G increase as the voltage the battery was able to deliver dropped? I'm pretty sure that one battery I used for measuring the current was brand new, while the other was maybe half-depleted. Might this explain my wildly divergent readings?

I'm also not discounting the possibility of, er, operator error. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif


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## John Frederick (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

PVC pipe seems like it'd make a good and cheap body. I like your idea, I hope it works out. I'll want a few for sure if you are able to keep the price down.


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## Doug Owen (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*

*Doug*, Wouldn't the current draw from battery for the Ultra-G increase as the voltage the battery was able to deliver dropped? I'm pretty sure that one battery I used for measuring the current was brand new, while the other was maybe half-depleted. Might this explain my wildly divergent readings?


[/ QUOTE ]

That might be the case if either the Ultra or Arc were actually regulated, which they're not. While both seem to be constant current (.24 Amps) from 1.5 to 1.9 Volts, they both draw about half that current at 1.0 Volts. They are simple up converters, not regulators. Light output (and current draw) is definitely higher with a fresh cell. I've measured several against a bench supply. FWIW, the UK AAA LED is the same sort of deal, but the voltages are higher 104 mA (475 Cp) at 3.0 but only 37 mA (167 Cp) at 2.0. 

OTOH, the EverLed is truly regulated .42 Amps at 3 Volts, .240 at 6 and ..16 at 8.

I suspect your readings were real, you just didn't measure the voltages. You really did see lower current for the weaker cell, and less light.

Doug Owen


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## Steelwolf (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

For a purdy housing, I have a cute little Dorcy lamp that could possibly be modded. This is not the version with the slide switch, just on/off. And it takes 4 AA, so that would be another area that needs some modification. But there is plenty of room for all that. And it comes with a little multi-faceted tube that goes around the bulb to act as a diffuser.

These should be available at KMart and other such types shops (though that is for here in Oz, US might be different).


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## milkyspit (Aug 15, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*Steelwolf*, is there a link you could find that shows the light? I've seen a couple modding candidates by Rayovac for sale in Walmart here in the States, but I'm not sure if they're rebranded versions of the light you're talking about, or completely different lights.

Would anyone be disappointed if the Candle didn't end up looking exactly like, well, a candle? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

We can still go with the PVC pipe approach, but there are also some modding candidates that are both cheap and give a good headstart on the housing. One of the possible hosts only costs $4!

I'd like to hear peoples' opinions on which they prefer... or perhaps both?


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## DaveT (Aug 15, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Hi Scott - back from the almost-hijacked single-D Mag thread.
One thing I got from the blackout was the need for some just casual area light...two or three flashlights propped up at angles to reflect light off the ceiling is OK, but once it turns dark and you're home, you want some light to make you feel more normal, not pierce the darkness. I guess that's what's drawing me toward that 12-LED lantern, and/or what the Milky Candle promises to be. Actually, I'm thinking they may complement each other nicely...a couple bigger, variable-light sources to reclaim a big chunk of the living room at something approaching comfortable reading light level (without having to huddle around them, knees touching), and a number of smaller units that could give acceptable light levels, anything from nightlight level up to close-by reading light, but cheap enough you could put one (or several) in every room, so once you're home you don't have to feel like you're creeping through the dark with a flashlight. I think that would have made my wife a lot happier than she was, reading a magazine with a 3C flashlight tucked into her shoulder.


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## John Frederick (Aug 15, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

I say performance over appearance. If you find a good and cheap flashlight to mod go for it. Ease of construction is important if you plan to make a lot of these.


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## milkyspit (Aug 16, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*DaveT*, we weren't part of this blackout, but last year we lost power four times in a little more than a month, with the longest outage lasting about 12 hours and most of them inconveniently happening in early evening, just after nightfall yet before bedtime. I put Energizer folding LED lanterns in strategic locations throughout the house and left them running all night, plus my wife and I each carried a TurtleLite II with us from room to room for those times we needed close illumination of something. It worked well enough to convince me of the merits of putting a Milky Candle in each room. It really is comforting to have a baseline level of illumination throughout the house even when the power is out, and to know it will run for DAYS if necessary.

Yup, I would say a Milky Candle in each room, then a 12-LED lantern for reading and other close purposes, could be a good mix.

*John Frederick*, I hear you loud and clear. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## John N (Aug 16, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

While I know this isn't quite what you had in mind, consider the following packaging:

1) A housing that supports 1 or 2 "D" cells. "D" cells hold a LOT of energy. In keeping with your theme (which I think is great), you could have cartriges that hold 123A cells and AA cells (think of Chief W's 4AA to 1D holder - see pic, below). You could do something similar for the 123A cells as well. Wire them for parallel operation so you could use partially populated. Optimally, I think you would have a 2D holder with a dummy D cell so you could use one or two D cells, or various numbers of AA or 123A cells.







2) While I understand you were looking at a candle type configuration, consider having the led on a flexible stock, kinda like this:






This would let you move the light around to where you need it. Add a lanyard connection and you get your tend light as well. It might be optimal if it had some sort of anti-roll feature.

I envision this whole thing in black anodized aluminum, ala Mag.

Make a heck of an emergency light, IMO.

-john


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## milkyspit (Aug 16, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*John*, thanks for the ideas. Yeah, D cells are AWESOME in terms of their power capacity. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif As for the flexible head, that's something I've been toying with in my mind for a while now. Another great idea! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I came to the conclusion a while ago that I'd have to develop this concept in stages, and initially the focus will be on CR123A as well as AA cells. Both are similar enough that a single battery tube might theoretically be made to fit either; they are compact for storage; they're dirt cheap (20 cents or less each in the case of AA); and even in AA, there's a lithium variant available for better cold weather use (think camping). I do admit to drooling over those D cell specs, though, and it's only a matter of time before the Milky Candle will run off those, too.

Also, lots of folks seem to go through piles of CR123A cells in their high-powered SF and SL lights, among others, which would provide a ready-made supply of "free" recycled fuel for the Candle.

I'm trying very hard to design the initial phase for low cost as well, because I'd like to get these into some peoples' hands. (I want a bunch of 'em, too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) Not that I'll make much profit on these lights, but it would certainly be gratifying to make a light others actually *want*, plus I think it's a light that can help lots of people.

This weekend I'll be checking out a possible Candle host I found a few days ago in the local Walmart. I mentioned it in an earlier post. It's sold as a $4 children's light but very nice! Metal-reinforced, movable carry handle that doubles as a stand, big shiny reflector with great light gathering capabilities, large clear top with frosting around the edges but not the center, nice battery compartment, and generally good look & feel. FOUR DOLLARS!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif (*Darkstar*, this particular host would also make a nice little tent light since it's easy to hang by its handle and looks to be at least moderately water resistant.)

I already bought one of the $4 hosts, popped a J. Bechto 4-LED PR bulb into it, and WOW! It gave MUCH more light than I expected. Of course, the Milky Candle won't be as bright as the J. Bechto bulb, but that nice accommodating reflector should help our single LED to send just about every available photon into the world.

With a $4 host and a handful of inexpensive components, maybe we'll make that $20 target after all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif


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## Steelwolf (Aug 16, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

http://www.dorcy.com/41-1014.htm

Scott: This is the light I'm talking about. I bought 1 after the last blackout I had over here (they were happening quite often in the last month because of some fault at the substation) and the blackouts have miraculously stopped. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I love how it says on the site "Frostbrite colours will encourage impulse sales". As if we needed that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

BTW, this might be better since it starts out looking like a classic lamp and uses D cells, which means that you can use battery adapters and the space will be able to accomodate practically any cells you have lying around the house. http://www.dorcy.com/41-1016.htm


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## milkyspit (Aug 16, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*Steelwolf*, thanks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'll try a different angle today, and do a little collaborative design. Here are some things that influence the choices on the Milky Candle (in no particular order)...

*Regulation circuit: * the circuit the current iteration of the Milky Candle uses does a fantastic job of minimizing current taken from the battery, but it does have some constraints in terms of the power source. Basically, it wants to run on at least 4V (approximate) and no more than 9V. I don't think the regulator would be fried above that, but the LED might! This means things like a single AA, C, D, and even CR123A wouldn't do very well on this circuit, and on the other end of the spectrum, 3xCR123A is about the limit. We could put some cells in parallel, though. Later I'll look for a more flexible regulation circuit to give greater power pack flexibility, but for now I'm focusing on either 4AA or 2xCR123A, or perhaps even 4D.

Incidentally, one other feature of the regulation circuit as it now stands is that that component cost is only a few dollars, and it's not too hard to put it together. Both are major concerns in keeping the overall cost down.

*Host: * I decided to focus on no more than two hosts for the light initially, to keep me from pulling my hair out! One host will be a do-it-yourself affair, as suggested by some of you, it will probably be some PVC pipe with custom endcaps, etc. The other host is most likely going to be that Rayovac "toy" light I mentioned. Believe me; it won't be a toy once modded! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif

*Cost: * Much as I'd love to make some really tiny, really slick looking Candle, something like the size and shape of a lipstick case, the custom machining involved would drive the cost to crazy heights. Heck, for $28 I can buy myself a TurtleLite II from LEDcorp and use it as my electronic candle! TurtleLite II's are a great design, IMHO, so psychologically I'd like to better them in some respect. One important way is for the Candle to end up less expensive than they are. Hopefully! (There are other advantages, too, like power source flexibility, multiple output settings, etc.)

That's all the design info for now, but I'm all ears on some of your ideas, just as what's been mentioned so far has been quite helpful.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

*Note about the first "field test": * During the recent blackout, I left the Candle prototype at my uncle's house. It was running two VERY dead CR123A cells, and while I sat talking in their living room (using the light of the Milky Candle, of course /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ), I noticed that the Candle started flickering gently. Kind of like a real candle! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Apparently that's the indication that the regulator is switching to direct drive mode due to lack of power in the cells. The effect was very subtle, actually even nice.

Before leaving I swapped a somewhat fresher CR123A (still probably half-used) for one of the flat cells, but left the other flat cell in place. The light apparently ran regulated for the rest of the evening.

Then last night I used the Milky Candle as a nightlight for my son, at the 6.5mA output setting (the low setting), and fell asleep myself before turning the candle off. Around noon today I noticed that it was still running. When I switched to high (30mA) the Candle didn't get much brighter, so apparently the cells were no longer capable of that level of output, but at 6.5mA the Candle was still humming along nicely. This was very encouraging! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I'll bet the flat cell still in the Candle is pretty much 100% devoid of electrons at this point, and the half-depleted cell still has plenty of juice left. All in all, it was a successful field test.


----------



## paulr (Aug 16, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

I think I wouldn't bother with regulation. Three or four D cells and a current limiting resistor should run a few Nichias or Chi-Wings for many hundreds of hours. Say two Chi-wings at 20 cents each, 2 resistors at 5 cents each, four "heavy duty" D cells (store in fridge for good shelf life, don't need alkalines) at 25 cents each, the most expensive part would be the D cell holder and maybe there's some way to improvise even that. Loop some bare wire around one end of each resistor so you can use it to short out the resistor and go into direct drive once the cells start getting really weak. Total cost should be well under $5.


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*Paulr*, that's (unregulated) how I started my whole investigation, and it certainly can work; no argument there. The regulation circuit I'm using doesn't cost very much to make, though... maybe $3, give or take a little? For your $3 it will of course keep level output going for nearly the entire runtime, plus it will protect the Nichia from overdriving and subsequent burnout, plus it facilitates the use of already-depleted cells. This last point got a surprising response from others around here on CPF, because many of them have batteries from high-powered lights that can no longer drive those lights and in that sense are "dead," yet they still have enough remaining capacity to run something like the Milky Candle. Regulation in that case lets those batteries be used without resulting in dimmer-than-normal output.


----------



## paulr (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

I just don't don't understand this thing about depleted cells. It's one thing to have a bright light use the same batteries as your LED light so you can cycle the batteries in an emergency. But by the time the cells are flat enough to not run the bright light, 90% of the energy in them is gone. Who really wants to run a filing system to keep track of their flat batteries and what series of lights to run them through next? If running costs for a light is really an issue, use rechargeables, otherwise just replace old batteries with new ones.

I should scroll back and check out your regulation circuit. Doing it for $3 is probably going to involve some assembly time. I'd been thinking in terms of Micropuck-like devices that are $10 or more.

I think I might put together a really cheap light with three D cells and a scrounged LED. If I use new alkalines it will cost a few bucks but will have good shelf life (refrigeration not needed) and be able to run for literally months nonstop while staying useably bright.


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*paulr said:*
I just don't don't understand this thing about depleted cells. It's one thing to have a bright light use the same batteries as your LED light so you can cycle the batteries in an emergency. But by the time the cells are flat enough to not run the bright light, 90% of the energy in them is gone. Who really wants to run a filing system to keep track of their flat batteries and what series of lights to run them through next? If running costs for a light is really an issue, use rechargeables, otherwise just replace old batteries with new ones.

I should scroll back and check out your regulation circuit. Doing it for $3 is probably going to involve some assembly time. I'd been thinking in terms of Micropuck-like devices that are $10 or more.

I think I might put together a really cheap light with three D cells and a scrounged LED. If I use new alkalines it will cost a few bucks but will have good shelf life (refrigeration not needed) and be able to run for literally months nonstop while staying useably bright. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, there is often a good deal of the total energy left in 123 cells that can no longer drive one of the wiz bang high output flashlights to 'full blast'. And a good number of us are too cheap to throw anything useful away (some of us even enjoy the 'game' of trying to figure out a way to get at the energy). This 'too frugal for your own good' attitude is what's lead me to using AA NiMH cells at the exclusion of the (expensive even at a buck) 123s.

The actual parts cost for the regulator in question is under a dollar, eighty five cents in fact for the IC, transistor, three resistors and capacitor involved at ten unit pricing from Jameco at today's prices. The LED is needed in any case, as is the case itself, of course. So even reasonable labor costs to assemble (seven total solder connections needed against the three in a 'LED and series resistor' light) the total added cost seems small indeed against the vastly improved performance. A second (or even third?) light level can be had for the cost of a switch and a resistor or two.

If you do decide to go the Alkaline cell route, I encourage you to look into it, it's been discussed and such lights leave half the total energy behind since at 1.2 Volts per cell ( half used), the total is not able to overcome Vf (the LED is out). A fourth cell addresses this shortcoming. "usably bright" is, IMO, often 'salesman speak' for 'not controlled at all and getting dimmer and dimmer all the time'. Not the sort of performance I'd be looking for. What is the user expected to do if/when they want or need the full level of light? Put a fresh battery in? Now we're back to groups of 'part dead' cells......

Doug Owen


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 17, 2003)

*Milky Candle Body*

In poking around the garage I've come up with a pair of promising bits of white plastic pipe. Both are half inch (nominal), the thicker wall a 'perfect fit' for AA cells, the thinner one an equally good fit for 123s. 

Seems to me a cork or plug for the bottom (perhaps a block of wood with a hole for a stand) and a 'candle like' top would do just fine. For the top, you could easily make a metal tool to dip mold latex onto (the stuff you dip tool handles into to). The coating (when 'dry') can then be stripped off like condoms or protective gloves, and a hole punched or cut in the end for the LED. Using white seems like the call?

Convertible units could be made by making the 'ground wire' (going down the tube to make contact with the bottom end of the stack) longer (plenty of room to wrap it around the stack) so that a short length of tube with the appropriate pipe coupling glued to it can be used to extend the battery case part enough to replace the two 123 cells with AAs.

Or so it seems to me Sunday morning.

Doug Owen


----------



## JonSidneyB (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Milky Candle Body*

Paulr>
there are a number of reasons that some of us might want to do this. Less batteries going to the dump, batteries are not that good for the environment. 

Most of us I think that want a light that will get the last amp out of a battery have plenty of bright lights. The more bright lights I have to more I have found that a bright light just has way to much output for some tasks, this provides nice lower level light.

Some of us are rural people. A blizzard can isolate us for a week, maybe 2 weeks.

Also, some of us keep lights that we want to only have the freshest batteries in. My carry tactical light, after I hit that switch 3 or 4 times, I pull those batteries.

A filing system is not needed when using single batteries. just rotate the batteries to the spent battery box. Then deplete them in several lights with that purpose in mind while remembering how far each light will pull them down.


----------



## paulr (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Milky Candle Body*

Jon, I'm wondering something that I posted in another thread. Suppose you run some 123's in an SF HOLA light til it's dimmed enough that you want to put in fresh ones. Now you put them in an Arc LS. My question is, how long can you then run the Arc LS? That would give some indication of how much energy is really left.

I have to also say that I think you use more 123's than just about anyone else here, so battery cycling may be less worthwhile for the rest of us than for you. I don't own any SF HOLA's; I have a UKE 2L that uses much less current than a Surefire so the cells are pretty depleted by the time the UKE is done with them. And a pair of 123's seems to last me a couple of years in it. I use my Arc LS somewhat more often and I think it's on its third 123 in six months. If I used it more I'd probably put a 2AA battery tail on it and use rechargeables, but I made a conscious decision that the rate I'm currently using 123's in it is affordable and tolerable.

I tend to want fresh cells in any emergency light. The rule for photographers is whenever you're going to shoot an important assignment, the night before the assignment remove all the batteries from your cameras and flashes and replace them with fresh new ones.


----------



## paulr (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Milky Candle Body*

Doug, what really happens when you try to run an LED below its rated Vf? I'm thinking of the Arc LS unregulated (moon) mode which is still pretty bright. My guess is the LED is getting less than 2 volts by then. Anyway, at such low current drain, even with 1.2 volts cutoff, three D's with one LED will still give tremendous runtime.

My current idea of a minimalist long-runtime light is three D cells, a 47 ohm resistor, and an LED scrounged from a Countycomm keychain light. No battery holder (solder wires directly to the batteries) and no on-off switch (just twist some bare wires together to light it up). The whole thing would be enclosed in a small scrounged cardboard box (one from kitchen matches turns out to be just the right size) and held together with packing tape or duct tape. The leftover coin cells from the Countycomm light would go in my Photon II. "Use every part of the animal".

I guess I could do the same thing with four D cells, but I'm now worried about the idea of shorting past the resistor once the cells get weak. If there's a switch for that, someone will use it to get more brightness when the cells are still fresh, and probably pop the LED. So some kind of non-defeatable limiting is needed.


----------



## John N (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*
but it does have some constraints in terms of the power source. Basically, it wants to run on at least 4V (approximate) and no more than 9V.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi,

If the point is to do a long running light source, it would seem that a cut off point of 4V is pretty high.

I would think you would want something that ran down very low to get as much umph as possible from the cells.

As for upper voltage, I would think 2x123 would be fine. If you want more cells just use them in parallel. Would probably be better for run down cells anyway.

-john


----------



## John N (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Paulr,

I think a low output light that uses every bit possible from cells would be useful, even though, like you, I would probably leave all my emergency lights with fresh cells.

1) In an emergency, I'd want to get as much life as possible - this involves getting the most from teh cells.

2) In an emergency, it would be nice to have the option of rotating the cells.

But, as I was saying, above, my idea of the best approach would be to have a light that has a large amount of flexibility in cell configurations and drains the heck out of them.

I guess for what it's worth, I'd also like one that had 3x3mm LEDs with the ability to activate one or all three. Three LEDs (ala Newbeam) seems to be a sweet spot in terms of task lighting. One is good for reading, or just having *some* light, but three is very handy at times and still is pretty minimal.

-john


----------



## paulr (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

I guess 3 LED's is doable, though then you also start wanting on-off switches. My idea was to not bother with a switch: just twist 2 wires together and leave the light on through the whole outage. Remember that three D's and one LED should be able to run for *months* nonstop. If you don't have relief supplies arriving by then, you have worse problems than being out of batteries. 

I've found my Arc AAA to be bright enough for just about anything close-up and haven't felt the need for 3 led's, but I guess an unregulated light could get pretty dim after a while, so maybe more LED's makes sense because of that.

Yet another approach: someone on BST is selling surplus Arc AAA converter/LED boards for $2 each. Wiring up one of those to an alkaline D cell should run it for 100+ hours before it falls out of boost mode. 

I'm not sure what you mean about rotating the cells: you mean scrounge them from the light to use in something else? I thought of just taping the wires to the batteries instead of soldering them for that reason, but decided that would fall apart too easily. My plan is to solder near the edges of the battery contacts instead of at the center. Most other devices have spring contacts that use the center of the battery, so leaving the contact center free of soldering should keep the batteries useable if you cut the wires.

If you mean _changing_ the batteries, the idea is for that to be unnecessary, this thing will run a loooooong time without needing a change.

I guess a fancier version of this light could use a 3D or 4D battery holder and have the parts (LED, resistor, switch) glued on the outside. Again I'd want to wrap it in duct tape to keep stuff from flying.

Safety warning: if you want to give one of these to a friend, do *not* attempt to bring it to him by carrying it in your airline luggage. Airport security is sure to flip their lid if they see a thing like this! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Milky Candle Body*

[ QUOTE ]
*paulr said:*
Doug, what really happens when you try to run an LED below its rated Vf? I'm thinking of the Arc LS unregulated (moon) mode which is still pretty bright. My guess is the LED is getting less than 2 volts by then. Anyway, at such low current drain, even with 1.2 volts cutoff, three D's with one LED will still give tremendous runtime.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's a simple experiment, try it and see.

By *definition* below Vf there is no joy. Remember, Vf is current dependent, that is if Vf is 3.6 Volts at 30 mA, it's 'only' 3.3 or so at 1 mA. This means things are mighty dim (but the discharge rate is also very low, so it'll be dim for a very long time........).

Your guess is wrong. Try lighting one with two Volts and see (or in this case 'can't see'.....). No current, no light.

Runtime with a regulator will always be longer than without at a given level. Resistored systems start out brighter than target, fairly quickly pass through the design level and tend to have a long lingering death. The lower the 'headroom' the more pronounced this effect. The regulator in question limits battery draw (not over bright at the start), maintains the design level until the battery drains down to .1 Volt or so above Vf, then converts to Direct Drive for as long as possible.

Doug Owen


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*John N said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*
but it does have some constraints in terms of the power source. Basically, it wants to run on at least 4V (approximate) and no more than 9V.

[/ QUOTE ]


If the point is to do a long running light source, it would seem that a cut off point of 4V is pretty high.

I would think you would want something that ran down very low to get as much umph as possible from the cells.


[/ QUOTE ]

The real drop out point is about .1 Volt above Vf for the diode you're using at the current you spec. In practice there's an argument for a few cheaper LEDs in parallel as Vf goes down a bit this way (and efficiency in theory goes up).

FWIW, I'm using this circuit with 3 NiMH (flat voltage over discharge), a 'near perfect match'. I'm getting near full nameplate rating from the cells (50 plus hours at 30 mA with three 1700 mAH cells) and at an *honest* 90 plus percent efficiency.

Yes, the idea is to drain 'em down to the nubs, I think the idea is to do so with one cell stronger than the other?

Doug Owen


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## paulr (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Hmm, the Arc AAA falls out of regulation at (by definition) somewhere below 1.5 volts in, and still gives off some light, though below what I'd call "useful".

I don't have a 2 volt supply to test with, but will test with 3 volts (1x123 direct). By the time three D's get below 1 volt each at such low drain, they are pretty much finished.

I do know that the InreTech Minimag mod (2 AA's direct driving a Luxeon) is popular around here and makes a useable amount of light at considerably below 3 volts, but that's with a Luxeon, and a 5mm LED may not do nearly as well. 

Thanks.


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*paulr said:*
Yet another approach: someone on BST is selling surplus Arc AAA converter/LED boards for $2 each. Wiring up one of those to an alkaline D cell should run it for 100+ hours before it falls out of boost mode.


[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to check the numbers rather than depend on a 'seat of the pants' guess. The Arc AAA draws about 250 mA at 1.5 Volts, 375 mW. By 1.2 Volts this is down to 150 mA and the LED is less than 'half bright'. Checking the specs for 'copper top' alkalines we can expect 8 Amp Hours at the 250 mW drain rate, so a conservative estimate would be 32 hours run time (probably less) to this point.

This tracks as the 'copper top AAA' shows a bit over an Amp Hour at this (250 mW) rate, translating to 4 or 5 hours run time which seems to be the common experience. D cells can realistically be expected to last maybe 8 times longer, no way 20 times or more.

Dem's the numbers.

Doug Owen


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## Doug Owen (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*John N said:*

I guess for what it's worth, I'd also like one that had 3x3mm LEDs with the ability to activate one or all three. Three LEDs (ala Newbeam) seems to be a sweet spot in terms of task lighting. One is good for reading, or just having *some* light, but three is very handy at times and still is pretty minimal.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree this is worth trying, I've had some (what I consider) excellent results with *parallel* (not switched in and out) LEDs. I'm currently (bad pun, I know) fiddling with four. This gives the option of going to 120 mA when you want a bunch of light at the expense of battery life but also gives you lower Vf at lower currents.

So I suggest leaving all the LEDs lit and just cut the total current back to the level you need.

Like I said, the version I'm fiddling with uses 3 NiMH cells driving four (cheap) LEDs and has 'stops' at about 2, 8, 30 and 120 mA. Works a treat as the saying goes.

Doug Owen


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## paulr (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

OK, the cold weather issue (that I hadn't thought of earlier) makes me back off on using zinc-carbon cells as I'd planned. Alkaline drives the cost up by a couple bucks, but I guess that's ok. (Previous version used three Zn-C cells at 25 cents each, a 10 cent resistor, and a scrounged LED and enclosure, total cash outlay less than $1). 

That suggests an even simpler light: two L91 lithium AA's and an LED, direct drive, no resistor, would probably use a battery holder for the AA's so cash outlay is about $5.

Simpler still: use a 3.6 volt AA lithium computer backup battery, similar to Tek-Tite Micro-Lith "survival light". Those batteries are about $7 from batterystation. Rated capacity is 2.75 AH at 3.6 volts, and those cells have extremely long shelf life (even compared to 123's). Runtime should be in the 150 hour range. Maybe I'd do that by modding a cheap 1AA incandescent light. The D version costs $17.50 and has 16.5 AH and could run 700+ hours. This gets sort of exotic though (specially ordered lithium cell). It's more practical to just keep a CMG Infinity and a couple spare AA alkalines around.


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## Doug Owen (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*paulr said:*
I don't have a 2 volt supply to test with, but will test with 3 volts (1x123 direct). By the time three D's get below 1 volt each at such low drain, they are pretty much finished.


[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent. I'm big on experimental data. Don't forget the 47 ohm resistor.

You can also try 2.6 Volts if you have a pair of NiMH cells handy. Or put a diode in series with the 3 Volts and try 2.3.

Yes, *Direct Drive* works fairly well for *low Vf* LSs but not very well with NiMH and not so good with other than fresh alkalines. Ever notice how may of us spend the big bucks for Li AAs to put in our CMG Reactors?

FWIW, it looks like the maker thinks you get about 80% of the charge down to 1.0 Volts. Some might be interested in that last 20%.......

Doug Owen


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## paulr (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

As remarked elsewhere, I think by the time you're down to the last 20% of those D cells, you have much worse problems than being in the dark. You haven't had power or spare batteries for months. Are you sure your food and water have lasted that long? 

Have you actually done any brightness tests at below Vf? Does the resistor make much difference at those voltages, or does the drop across it stay very low?

Is your regulator circuit online somewhere? I wasn't able to find a link upthread, but may have missed it.


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*paulr said:*

Simpler still: use a 3.6 volt AA lithium computer backup battery, similar to Tek-Tite Micro-Lith "survival light". Those batteries are about $7 from batterystation. Rated capacity is 2.75 AH at 3.6 volts, and those cells have extremely long shelf life (even compared to 123's). Runtime should be in the 150 hour range. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, the numbers seem against this. Checking the 14500C specs at

LS 14500C 

shows this is indeed a memory back up battery, intended for low currents only. At 110 Ohms (28 mA) it has between 25 and 30 hours of life near as I can read the graph. This seems a poor bang for the buck against other options to me.

Doug Owen


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*paulr said:*
As remarked elsewhere, I think by the time you're down to the last 20% of those D cells, you have much worse problems than being in the dark. You haven't had power or spare batteries for months. Are you sure your food and water have lasted that long? 

Have you actually done any brightness tests at below Vf? Does the resistor make much difference at those voltages, or does the drop across it stay very low?

Is your regulator circuit online somewhere? I wasn't able to find a link upthread, but may have missed it. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, WRT your perspective on D cell life, sorta like the 'if you can't solve your problem with the 170 rounds you're carrying, what good's more ammo?

However, the ability to drain cells was a goal here, right? I'm still not sure we agree at all on runtimes, not that that matters a lot.

Of course I've never done any brightness tests below Vf. Nobody has. If you meant 'have you ever tried running at less than the normal Vf at 30 mA?', yes, of course. That's what the V/I curves are all about. Vf at various currents. The point is the current is basically zero at voltages much under 3 Volts for the LEDs we're dealing with. You can easily see that in the curves.

If I get some time, I'll run a quick test. Say current draw with 47 Ohms and a white 5 mm LED at various voltages?

No, the details of the circuit has been sorta beat to death over the last 6 months or so over on the Electronics forum (where this candle thread actually started). The details of the circuit (aside from the fact it's a Low Drop Out regulator with current control) aren't really that important to the general discussion of 'to regulate or not'. The circuit itself comes directly from the National data sheet for the LM334. It's the single transistor circuit shown center right on page 8 titled 'Higher Output Current' (with the exception of the addition of a 510 Ohm or so resistor between the IC plus lead and the transistor base to protect against overloading the IC (only good for 10 mA 'barefoot') as the battery drops (I'm not sure it'd be fatal not to have it, but resistors are cheap insurance).

Doug Owen.


----------



## paulr (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

LM334 is a quad op amp if I remember right. Is this a switching regulator? I guess a linear regulator is actually fine in practice for this application, but isn't really in the spirit of getting every possible bit of battery energy to the LED.

There are a bunch of different goals that have been bounced around, draining cells completely is one, running for a very long time is another, being simple and cheap is yet another. It's a typical case of "pick any two". I took the view that "drain the cells completely" was actually a means to an end, of maximizing runtime by using all the availabile capacity of the 123's. In the D circuit I took a different approach, of getting the runtime by just throwing a lot more capacity (bigger cells) into the picture. 

Yes, current draw at 47 ohms at various voltages would be good to see. I'd also be interested in a practical visual test, i.e. how much light (subjectively) does that white LED give off at 10 mA, 3 mA, 0.5 mA, etc? Enough to easily see around a room? Enough to read printed text with the LED held 6 inches from the page? (That seems to be about the level needed to navigate a room when well dark-adapted).

ISTR that the CMG Infinity runs 40 hours on an AA before falling out of boost. I don't know its cutoff voltage (maybe I'll try to measure it sometime) but that would say average current drain of 50 mA. If the tail end is at 50% of average, that's 25 mA at (say) 1 volt in, or maybe 5 mA to the LED assuming around 60% efficiency (it has to be less efficient at that tail end) if it's getting 3 volts to the LED. If that 5 mA is a bit dimmer than the tail end of my Arc AAA, then that's about the level where I'd definitely want new batteries, even though even dimmer lights can be useful in a pinch. So maybe we can settle on 5 mA of LED current as the cutoff when figuring runtimes.

Actually there's another thing we can do: add a second LED with lower Vf. When the battery voltage gets too low to run the white LED, switch to a yellow or even a red one (Vf about 2.2 volts at rated current). That would really drain three D's to the dregs.


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Milky Candle Body*

[ QUOTE ]
*Doug Owen said:*
In poking around the garage I've come up with a pair of promising bits of white plastic pipe. Both are half inch (nominal), the thicker wall a 'perfect fit' for AA cells, the thinner one an equally good fit for 123s. 

Seems to me a cork or plug for the bottom (perhaps a block of wood with a hole for a stand) and a 'candle like' top would do just fine. For the top, you could easily make a metal tool to dip mold latex onto (the stuff you dip tool handles into to). The coating (when 'dry') can then be stripped off like condoms or protective gloves, and a hole punched or cut in the end for the LED. Using white seems like the call?

Convertible units could be made by making the 'ground wire' (going down the tube to make contact with the bottom end of the stack) longer (plenty of room to wrap it around the stack) so that a short length of tube with the appropriate pipe coupling glued to it can be used to extend the battery case part enough to replace the two 123 cells with AAs.

Or so it seems to me Sunday morning.

Doug Owen 

[/ QUOTE ]

*Doug*, great detective work. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif Thank you.

I was thinking along similar lines, but I think the cap (in other words, the top piece) could simply be an endcap of matching diameter; it's simple enough to drill a hole in the center for the Nichia, or even a few holes for a few Nichias, then fix them into place from underneath with either epoxy or perhaps some sort of silicone caulk. That approach would also allow the least impedence to the light output -- zero! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif -- which could be significant since we're trying to minimize energy expenditure for a given amount of light.

Interestingly, at a family picnic today I happened to engage my cousin in conversation about the project. *He's a welder*, and got surprisingly excited about the Milky Candle project. (He loves the EL Blaster VI, too, by the way, and examined it closely to reverse engineer how it had been machined. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif )

With hardly any prompting at all, he took a 123 cell home with him and promised to look for some stainless steel tubing of an appropriate diameter to house the 123 cells. He's thinking of a stainless steel battery tube, some sort of cap on top, and a threaded base on the bottom a little wider than the tube, to facilitate standing upright.

When I tried to inquire (gently) about potential costs, he said his shop has lots of tubing such as this sitting in the scrap bins from the jobs they do, and told me it would be free! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif Of course, I don't expect it to *stay* free if I come to him with a request for 150 pieces or so, but for a relatively small number it probably would indeed be free. I consider that good news. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

In the meantime, I'll still go on a minor shopping spree at the local Home Depot or Lowe's. (Dang... they've already closed for the evening. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif )


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*Paulr*, in reading your posts it seems to me that what you're after is a completely different type of light. And I don't mean that as disrespectful in the least... actually, that's what's great about CPF! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I've learned a ton reading about others' experiences, sorting through the information for myself, forming my own ideas, trying my own experiments... hopefully you understand.

I would encourage you to build one of your lights and try it. Refine the concept. Open a thread and talk about it, plus hopefully include some photos. I for one am interested in whatever you come up with! After all, there's more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif

Seriously. *Go for it!* /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*John N said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*
but it does have some constraints in terms of the power source. Basically, it wants to run on at least 4V (approximate) and no more than 9V.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi,

If the point is to do a long running light source, it would seem that a cut off point of 4V is pretty high.

(snip)


[/ QUOTE ]

*John*, thanks for your comments. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif As Doug Owen has already said, the more correct statement about this circuit is that it needs Vf plus 0.1V to operate. With 2x123 or even 3x123, this is most likely not much of a problem, because 123 cells have the interesting characteristic of remaining at very high voltage until they're basically dead as doornails. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif So even with the 2x123 arrangement, let's say the Vf of the Nichia is 3.4V. It will actually continue to run at lower Vf -- let's say 3.0V -- with low current flow, and in those final minutes (hours?) the regulation circuit will basically switch to direct drive mode. Below 3.0V or so, the LED will go out completely. If the two cells discharged evenly, each is now reading 1.5V, and for a 123 cell that's way dead! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

On the other hand, maybe one cell took the brunt of the discharge... could happen if they were uneven in remaining capacity to begin with. In this case that one cell will be *beyond* way dead... maybe undead, as in *zombies*? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif The other cell, meanwhile, may well still be usable once the zombie is, er, eliminated.

Now under a totally different arrangement, say 4xAA alkalines, at 3.0V each alkaline will be down to 0.75V, which is generally regarded as a dead AA cell. Or the zombie scenario mentioned above could occur here as well. Note that you *still* could have taken the AA alkalines from some high-drain device when they stopped working there (digital camera, Walkman, etc.) and still gotten hours of additional life out of them in the Milky Candle, because the voltage of an AA alkaline cell will sag, sometimes dramatically, under high drain situations. (In other words, the cells might have already fallen to 0.75V in your Walkman, but drive the Milky Candle at something like 1.1V.)

The moral of the story is: the minimum voltage constraint on the circuit does tend to work in real world terms... and you've got to eliminate all the zombies! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*paulr said:*
LM334 is a quad op amp if I remember right. 

There are a bunch of different goals that have been bounced around, draining cells completely is one, running for a very long time is another, being simple and cheap is yet another. It's a typical case of "pick any two".

Yes, current draw at 47 ohms at various voltages would be good to see.

Actually there's another thing we can do: add a second LED with lower Vf. When the battery voltage gets too low to run the white LED, switch to a yellow or even a red one (Vf about 2.2 volts at rated current). That would really drain three D's to the dregs. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are a decade off, (thinking of 324s?), 334 is a three terminal current regulator with 67 mV feedback. We need to boost it's 'barefoot' 10 mA max a mite. $6.20 for ten. Neat part. You also need a low Vsat PNP (seven cents for 2N3906), three resistors and a small cap. To me (at least) that is simple. A very neat solution.

You're right of course about it being a moving target. More fun since they're all subjective goals to one extent or another. Some are focused on draining cells others consider worthless. Some consider longer run time in exchange for gradual dimming a good design. Surely 'simple' and 'cheap' are subjective, and also very relative to some of the other goals. Kinda like life itself, isn't it?

OK, I got it, at least from 2.5 to 4.2 or so when my nifty new (and recommended) Labjack gave out, but cannot for the life of me get the three by ten cell excel table into this format. If someone who isn't a net Luddite will PM me an email address, I'd love to email the table to you so you could post it? Fun to do, the output channel will supply enough current (17 mA) to get us to 4.2 Volts, so it's self powered. A resistor and LED hooked to the Labjack terminal board. Interesting stuff, if someone can only share it with CPF........

You're also spot on WRT using 'cooler' colors for lower Vf. Unfortunately, this was rejected out of hand, white only if you please. Bummer in that it means we can't take the obvious advantage of the close match between Vf and the battery. FWIW, my solution to this general issue is something like yours, a two D cell holder with a spider LED running a mA or so (very efficient LED) as a locator. When you pick it up a switch jumps the current up so you can light the room. I had it set for full blast (75 mA for this part), but cut it back to about 25 as 75 was too much for the bedroom.

It's been 'up' for about nine months now, the battery is 2.91 Volts last I got curious enought to check. Vf was 2.3 Volts at 75 mA, I'm not sure what it is at 25. The original goal there was as a nightlight (1.5 to 2 mA seemed right for that).

Doug Owen


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Doug Owen said:*
OK, I got it, at least from 2.5 to 4.2 or so when my nifty new (and recommended) Labjack gave out, but cannot for the life of me get the three by ten cell excel table into this format. If someone who isn't a net Luddite will PM me an email address, I'd love to email the table to you so you could post it? Fun to do, the output channel will supply enough current (17 mA) to get us to 4.2 Volts, so it's self powered. A resistor and LED hooked to the Labjack terminal board. Interesting stuff, if someone can only share it with CPF........


[/ QUOTE ]

Here are *Doug Owen's* results from running approx. 2.5V through 4.2V through a series resistor and white LED...

2.505 V yields 2.500 Vf at 0.145 mA
2.598 V yields 2.588 Vf at 0.187 mA
2.695 V yields 2.690 Vf at 0.291 mA
2.798 V yields 2.778 Vf at 0.540 mA
2.900 V yields 2.856 Vf at 0.976 mA
3.105 V yields 3.003 Vf at 2.264 mA
3.208 V yields 3.062 Vf at 3.199 mA
3.306 V yields 3.105 Vf at 4.113 mA
3.403 V yields 3.164 Vf at 5.380 mA
3.496 V yields 3.203 Vf at 6.460 mA
3.604 V yields 3.242 Vf at 7.852 mA
3.701 V yields 3.271 Vf at 9.202 mA
3.804 V yields 3.311 Vf at 10.863 mA
3.901 V yields 3.330 Vf at 12.484 mA
4.009 V yields 3.354 Vf at 14.021 mA
4.102 V yields 3.369 Vf at 15.724 mA
4.180 V yields 3.389 Vf at 17.136 mA

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*

The moral of the story is: the minimum voltage constraint on the circuit does tend to work in real world terms... and you've got to eliminate all the zombies! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Scott, I do believe you've captured the naked essence of the Zen of Light.

What comes next, Quantum Exorcists? Cast out the evil green......

Doug Owen (or should that be 'Grasshopper'?)


----------



## paulr (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Hmm, I don't understand why colored leds were rejected out of hand--if this is a one-LED area light, it's not going to give off enough light to enable color vision anyway. In fact I'm thinking of bagging the white led and just using a yellow (closer to where the eye is most sensitive) or a red-orange (seems to be the most efficient LED color in lumens/watt). Trouble is I'd have to actually buy those leds instead of scrounging them out of trashed lights I already have around.

Milky, sure, there's all kinds of different goals possible, and it's fun to find ways to reach them. I just can't see a $20 light as something I can afford to put several of in every room and then almost never use. I'd like to keep it to under $5, preferably _way_ under. For $25 I can put a solar powered Swiss light in every room and never need batteries. Also, I don't have the stocks of partially spent 123's like JonB has. With a 123-powered candle, I'd have to actually go out and buy 123's to put in it, and if I don't need their superior power density they're ridiculously expensive per joule compared with D's.


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*paulr said:*
Milky, sure, there's all kinds of different goals possible, and it's fun to find ways to reach them. I just can't see a $20 light as something I can afford to put several of in every room and then almost never use. I'd like to keep it to under $5, preferably _way_ under. For $25 I can put a solar powered Swiss light in every room and never need batteries. Also, I don't have the stocks of partially spent 123's like JonB has. With a 123-powered candle, I'd have to actually go out and buy 123's to put in it, and if I don't need their superior power density they're ridiculously expensive per joule compared with D's. 

[/ QUOTE ]

*Paulr*, I really do understand. For me, though, I *would* use these lights occasionally, even without a power outage. For instance, they'd be handy to carry upstairs with me when I want to check on the kids but don't want to risk waking them from the light... or when I want to put a quickie nightlight in a room, either because one of my sons is having a "scared of the dark" night, or because we have guests staying with us who don't know the position of all the furniture by memory... or to eat at the table outside (or inside for that matter) with a little mood lighting... or even just for a change of pace, such as when I'm in the midst of a late night programming session (just enough light to see the keyboard)... the possibilities are near-endless, though they're specific to each person. You apparently don't perceive any of these needs, which is okay. It's just not the light for you, I guess. That's cool! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regarding price, this is precisely why I never wanted to attach a price tag to the light in the first place, even if it was just hypothetical. When I suggested $20 I meant only to differentiate the Milky Candle from lots of these other mods we see that, although very nice, come in at price tags of $50-$200 and sometimes even more. This won't be such an item. But will it cost $20? I have no idea! Could be $1.99 for all I know. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif Don't take the price too seriously at this point.

Besides, I'm trying to be pretty open about how I'm designing the light. When it's ready I do intend to build a run of them for anyone interested, but you could of course build one yourself to save even more money. Most if not all the parts should be readily available at reasonable prices.

Now me personally, I'm not into this ultra-budget, 'D' cells with wires taped to them, sitting in a cardboard box, with wires twisted together to activate it kind of light. That's the direction you're heading and you have reasons behind your choice, it's just not something that interests me. That doesn't mean your concept has no merit; it's just not what I want. In *this* particular thread I've been very excited about my Milky Candle project and thought it would be fun to share some design details, kick a few things around, etc. It's what I'd call my first *real* mod, my prior experiences being fairly trivial (replace a bulb, snip a few wires, stick some aluminum foil over a battery holder, etc.). I love reading about these things from others, such as Hotbeam's very cool MR Hotlips thread, and wanted to contribute that sort of experience as my own project progresses.

But I guess I'm a born worrier, too, and I worry that this thread might end up hijacked into a debate about semi-religious issues like regulated vs. resistored, which size of battery is best, etc. A lot of this has been discussed to death before, in other threads here on CPF. I'd rather not rehash them here. As stated at the outset, the Milky Candle will go through several phases of development, and ultimately (I hope) offer enough flexibility to let each potential user put together the pieces they feel best using, such as their favorite size cells, their favorite drive module, etc. Kind of like a set of Lego blocks for building an electronic candle. Gotta start somewhere, though, and given the interest shown by several others as well as the fact that 123 and AA cells are commonly used -- and often in high-powered lights, where they're likely *not* to be 'good to the last drop' (apologies to Maxwell House /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) -- I decided to start there. It's kind of cheating, too, because the cell sizes are similar enough that I might be able to use a single battery tube for both types of cell.

One thing I *would* be *very* interested in hearing, that you might have strong opinions about, is what type of boost circuit might best be used as an alternate drive module, to allow use of the Milky Candle with single cells such as a single 'D', etc. Heck, even a single 123! The trick is to settle on a boost circuit (preferably regulated, too) that will still extract the minimal possible current flow from the battery. Something that jumps to 100mA, 200mA, or even more to power a single Nichia is simply too wasteful for the Milky Candle. Got a candidate for this scenario?

To summarize a bit:
<ul type="square">[*] Please don't focus on the price so much, at least not yet. [*] If price does become an issue in the end, save money by building it for yourself, or go with your own design toward that end. [*] If you don't have/want 123 cells and don't want to use AA's either, hang on for the next phase or fashion a power pack for the cells you want to use. Or it's possible this just isn't the light for you. [*] Let's find a boost regulation circuit that sips lightly rather than guzzling mightily (relatively speaking) from a single battery. Ideas? [*] And what do you think about the possibility of getting a stainless steel tube for the price of a PVC one, as detailed in my previous post?
[/list]

And build your light, Paul, because you have these ideas and it'd be interesting to see how it works out!


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 18, 2003)

*Other colors*

[ QUOTE ]
*paulr said:*
Hmm, I don't understand why colored leds were rejected out of hand--if this is a one-LED area light, it's not going to give off enough light to enable color vision anyway. In fact I'm thinking of bagging the white led and just using a yellow (closer to where the eye is most sensitive) or a red-orange (seems to be the most efficient LED color in lumens/watt). Trouble is I'd have to actually buy those leds instead of scrounging them out of trashed lights I already have around.


[/ QUOTE ]

I hear ya. Like I said, someone else sets the rules (that's what makes it fun, trying to find the 'best fit' within some often arbitrary bounds). Like I said, my personal attempt did in fact use red-orange for the reasons you mention (and two alkaline cells).

Tell ya what, PM me your real name and address, I'll send ya a few colors to try.

Doug Owen


----------



## rodfran (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Hi Milky,

A cool project! My wife has a Streamlight Scorpion and I have a Surefire. I sure hate throwing away those used CR123A`s. 

Now that I have read about your project, I will start saving them.

That stainless steel body deal sounds cool. But if you make them out of PVC, that`s ok by me.

I would be interested in a white led like your prototype. I have a 12 year old, and he loves messing around with leds.
When you are ready to make a run, I am definitely interested!


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*Rodfran*, thanks. I'll keep posting my progress in this thread, so please check back from time to time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And thanks for the kind words. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif


----------



## paulr (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Doug, great, thanks, a couple LED's will be appreciated. I'll PM my address soon. 

Milkyspit, yeah, I understand, we've gone off in different directions about how to implement this kind of light. Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack.

If you want to check on your kids unobtrusively I think it's best to use a red LED. I have a red Photon II on my keychain partly for uses like that.

As for mood lighting, I wonder if you've looked at the CMG Bonfire Blaze. Maybe it can be modded to use a 123 instead of its normal two AA's. Except that it costs $28.50 at Brightguy, it sounds pretty similar to the Milky Candle (i.e. it has a boost regulator, two white LED's, even has a red LED for when you want that).


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Got another small bit of encouraging news on the circuit design for the Milky Candle. I just swapped-out my first set of batteries and found some happy things in doing the post mortem on them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Note that I'll discuss the post mortem along the lines of a prior testing methodology I reported in this thread recently. If you're not already familiar with it, you might want to give it a read.

Okay, onto the show! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The 123 cells I had left in the Milky Candle originally tested with flash amps (which I called "MUC" in the other thread) of 6.x and 1.x. They were able to run 30mA at regulation for several hours, though I didn't time precisely how many hours. Just before removing the cells I noticed that they would *still* run the Candle at a regulated 30mA, but only for a minute or two, after which they'd fall into direct drive mode. If they "rested" for a while, they'd again run at 30mA regulated, but again only briefly. This was a sign that they were on the way out.

When I removed these cells and tested them again, one cell (I assume it was the 6.x one) showed flash amps of maybe 0.8, and the other showed flash amps of 0.04! Note the additional decimal place. I believe it's safe to say that this latter cell was squashed FLAT! Heh heh. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif

So it looks like one of our design goals here, namely the ability to extract just about every last drop of energy from the cells, is indeed coming true.

There is another encouraging result. Even with these cells in their extremely depleted state, they still were capable of running in the 6.5mA regulated setting. At least it *looked* like they were, as I didn't actually put the DMM on the Candle to verify this. It was a pleasant surprise, though, that cells so depleted could still give a little more if asked. Note that 6.5mA works as a fine nightlight for my 3-year-old son when sleeping; if anything, it's a little too bright...


----------



## TOB9595 (Aug 23, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Well, I had the good fortune to see and feel the Milky Candle in the flesh (?) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
This is so cool and functional. The two position switch goes from a relatively dim see the room glow to a arc aaa brightness. It is very functional for my uses which would be an edc emergency light. I was thinking that with our recent blackout it would have been ideal in office and home environments. The length of run time is outstanding!
Yes the 123's are not for everyone BUT that is the configuration that will work best with the light in it's present iteration. (Even at the high end of retail battery cost it works.) Keeps it compact, about the length of the inova x5t, and it works for me.
I was in awe of the little sucker. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
Unfortunately Milky had several 5 watters in his collection. Now I NEED a Space needle /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Thanks Milky for a great informative evening.
I look forward to the transformation of the MilkyCandle to it's completed state.
I'm hooked on it.
Tom


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 23, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*TOB9595 said:*
Well, I had the good fortune to see and feel the Milky Candle in the flesh (?) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This is so cool and functional.

I was in awe of the little sucker. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif.

I'm hooked on it.

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

So, Scott, sounds like you're onto a winner. IMO a truly *new concept*, not just a reworked flashlight or headlight idea.. Well done Lad! I suggest a pilot run is in order, a few dozen 'Mark I versions' for CPF folks to check out. Maybe even as kits of some sort? Offer's still open.

It's a pity Tom has such trouble expressing himself clearly, but I really do think he liked it (might even want one of his own to mess with.....).

Congratulations, now get back to work on the design.......

Doug Owen


----------



## TOB9595 (Aug 23, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

MIGHT????????
Do I want to hit the lottery?
Do I want to get good looking?
Do I want a great Lady?
Do I .......
I want a MilkyCandle!!!
(kits are a cool idea)
Tom


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 23, 2003)

*Milky Candle Kits?*

[ QUOTE ]
*TOB9595 said:*
MIGHT????????
Do I want to hit the lottery?
Do I want to get good looking?
Do I want a great Lady?
Do I .......
I want a MilkyCandle!!!
(kits are a cool idea)
Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, Tom, no doubt about it, you're clearer and clearer all the time......

If Scott decides to go with a kit, what do you think it should include? I'm thinking that it would be smart not to include plastic pipe and fittings that members can get at local hardware stores. Perhaps reduce it to the electronics and any custom made bits needed.

This way guys that want 2X123 cells can get one size pipe, the guys that want to go with 3 or 4 AAs can get the other. Guys that want to use D cells (or other sources) would be on their own.

Do you think it's a safe assumption that most anyone interested will be able to buy the parts, cut the pipe and so on?

What do you think?

Doug Owen


----------



## rodfran (Aug 23, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Hi Milky, 

I`m still with you and Doug Owen monitoring your posts. Great critique from Tom! 
Let me know when you get your first pilot run going for us CPF`ers(hint, hint).

I would like to be in line for one!


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 23, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Well, I've been in a lurking mood most of today, but now I'm back, baby! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif First of all, here's a small contribution Tom made to the project...

(and that's not Tom /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif , but read on...)







That small PVC tube with endcaps was fashioned by Tom and graciously left with me during his visit yesterday; many thanks, Tom! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif This may well be what the first iteration of the Milky Candle looks like, but with the LED pushing through the top endcap. I photographed it next to my EL Blaster VI to give some sense of the size of the tube; as for the gentleman in the background, he's my son Amzie, sitting with his MiniMag with Opalec NewBeam. He's already a flashaholic, and as you can see, a train enthusiast as well. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif

Turns out Tom lives quite close to me, so we met for some pizza by, er, Milky light. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif It was great to see a fellow CPF'er, and I proved to my wife that there are at least TWO flashaholics on Earth. Tom also had some great suggestions on packaging of the Milky Candle, finishing touches, etc. Plus he's now set to buy a 5-watter in the near future, and I just might pick up a Tigerlight. Yikes!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

*Doug*, I haven't forgotten you, just been a little backlogged on other things in recent days. Look for at least one PM and/or email from me in the near future. Thanks, too, for the offer, and yes, a kit sounds like a distinct possibility. Wonder how many people will be interested in the kit vs. a completed Candle?

Turns out I'm only using a 6400mcd white LED, but I've got some 9200mcd ones on order, which should give even a bit more output and/or allow a drop to slightly lower current for even more hours' runtime. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I've also got some orange LEDs on order from Craig of LED Museum, and the low Vf on those little guys ought to allow REGULATED operation using a single 123 cell! So there are at least two versions of the Candle in active development: small and smaller. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Open issues include the number of levels and current flow for each (currently leaning toward 1.5mA, 6.5mA, and 30mA), and on a related note, finding a switch that can handle the various levels as well as on/off, PLUS is cheap and easy to build into the Candle. I'm toying with a four position rotary switch but am not sure it's the best way. Any ideas?

*TOB9595*, thanks again, and glad you liked the Candle. Nothing like a hands-on demo, eh?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

*rodfran*, I'm waiting on a couple orders of parts that should allow me to finish the second prototype. Maybe in the next several days? After that, the pilot run won't be far behind. Your interest is noted, though! In fact, you're officially #1 on the list. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif Thanks for hanging in there!


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 24, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Scott,

Good to 'hear' from you. We were sure you hadn't abandoned your promising project but temporarily distracted by 'the real world'. Having a life must take up a lot of time......

IMO there are a number of CPF folks interested, the actual number depends on price, timing, content and so on. But the idea wit a pilot run is to try out the process. I'd suggest a target run of 10 to 25 units. Kits seem to offer the best opportunity to both test the idea and see what the inventive folks at CPF can come up with (no doubt a useful exercise, get the members to do your 'beta testing' as well.....). You should plan on retaining a handful of the kits to build up into various models, but make some available to our 'partners in crime' in a manner you see fit.

I fully agree with your use of other colors as an option for single cell (and two AA cell) use. I've had some excellent results with red/orange LEDs at about 2.3 Volts Vf at 30 mA. LOTS of light (this is a very efficient color, many more lumens per watt than white). Full (regulated) performance with a single 123, two NiMH AA cells or 80% plus drain for two alkaline AAs. I don't recall if I sent you one to try or not. If not, I should have, let me know. They're kinda 'ringy' but that doesn't matter WRT out testing seems to me.

As I think I already said, I also agree that an even lower setting is useful (and runs almost 'forever', 1000 honest hours or more). The prototype I made on the 'pin board' is in front of me, it uses a center off slide switch for three level use, but is a little awkward in that to keep things simple and cheap (as well as small) it's got low in the center rather than one end (the switch goes 'medium-low-high') something that seems OK to me if a little confusing at first. Think of it as a center off switch that goes to very low rather than off as long as there's a battery installed. Rotary switches (for yet more functions) are an option, of course, but have cost and mounting issues. To control power, we need a 'second deck' adding to the cost and size. The best options I could find still have the switch costing as much as all the rest (except the LED), making the $.30 slide switch (and turning it on and off some other way) more attractive. And the switch is many times larger than the rest of the electronics. I like the idea of several models, but please keep the option of AA cells open as well? At present, it's simply a longer piece of thicker wall pipe (and a longer 'ground' lead), the electronics (except for the LED of course) remains the same in any case.

Anyway, like I said before, an exciting project. Far more that a mod to an existing flashlight. A clear product of 'thinking outside the box'. Way cool..

BTW, good looking Production Manager you got there......seems a bit young, even for a startup, but that's your call. IMO it might be better to start him out in Testing or Sales?

Fun stuff for sure.

Doug Owen


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 24, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Made a trip with Amzie shortly after my last post to our friendly neighborhood hardware megamart (Lowe's), and scoured the plumbing supply section for parts ideas on THREE different projects, including the Milky Candle. (The others involve a 2x3x123 battery adapter for 2D flashlight, and what amounts to the photonic equivalent of a wind tunnel).

We got the necessary PVC tubing and endcaps to make some Milky Candles, but we also picked up something that might work even better! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif It's supposed to be some sort of coupler, and it uses the same diameter tube as necessary to fit 123 cells nicely; in fact, it's nearly the same size and configuration as Tom's PVC housing, right down to the endcaps!

The coupler is different in a few respects, though. First, the endcaps are threaded so they can be attached more securely. Second, the endcaps have openings in the middle! This could actually be an advantage, as it makes exposure of a switch, the LED itself, etc., much easier. No cutting! Lastly, there are molded grips on both endcaps plus the body itself. All told, it looks somewhat reminiscent of a very frugal tactical light. If memory serves, it cost $1.96. For the 2x123 configuration, this might be the way to go.

I spent much of the past night (after everyone else went to bed) brainstorming how the components might be installed in the coupler. One interesting thing is that a Kroll tailcap switch actually fits reasonably well on the bottom AND sits deeply enough inside the endcap to allow the Candle to stand upright! Not sure that's the way to go, but it IS intriguing. Wonder how cheaply we can do a bulk purchase of Kroll tailcap switches?

I should also note that the Rayovac child's lantern I mentioned in a previous post (purchased for $4 at WalMart) has the potential to support BOTH 123 and AA cell usage; in other words, the user could conceivably use either type of cell in the light, depending on which is more available, cheaper, etc. Tom saw that light, too, during his visit.

At this point, there are lots of little things to figure out, but things are progressing nicely.


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 26, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*It's Raining... LEDs?*

Got a little bag of orange LEDs through Craig of LED Museum fame. Thanks, Craig! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif The low Vf on these little fellows makes them perfect for use with a single CR123A cell, or two AA alkalines. And the output would still be regulated! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif At least that's the idea. I'm currently testing to see how bright the orangies are and how well they work off the single cell.

I've also got *50 Nichia Rank S* white LEDs on the way. These are, as far as I know, top-of-the-line for white Nichias, and provide 9200mcd output at 20mA. Since the Milky Candle will drive them at 30mA, the light output might actually be closer to *13,800mcd*, though it probably won't get *quite* that high in practice.

The, er, *non-ugly prototype* is currently under construction...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 26, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*

Got a little bag of orange LEDs through Craig of LED Museum fame. Thanks, Craig! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif The low Vf on these little fellows makes them perfect for use with a single CR123A cell, or two AA alkalines. And the output would still be regulated! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif At least that's the idea. I'm currently testing to see how bright the orangies are and how well they work off the single cell.



[/ QUOTE ]

Very cool. I think 'lower Vf colors' have a definite place in the scheme of things. I've been messing with some fairly hot red/orange 5 mm parts, a bit 'ringy' but I'm not sure that matters. LOTS of light at 30 mA. Did I send you any of these? I'm currently fiddling with a small snap top vial from Tap Plastics, just big enough in diameter to accept the 123 cell and about 3/8 inch higher. Makes for an interesting (and very compact) light.....

Doug Owen


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*Doug*, I'm finding that the orange LEDs give a nice amount of light for "personal" use, which means sitting on a desk or table next to someone, but they aren't doing very well for whole-room illumination. In fact, a 6400mcd Nichia driven at 6.5mA easily outshines an orange LED driven at 30mA when it comes to illuminating the room! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

On the other hand, the orange LEDs seem to have less glare than the white ones, so they can be placed next to someone without interfering as much with the field of vision. They also seem to be more reminiscent of the color profile of a candle... with a flicker circuit, in fact, they would be pretty convincing! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

For what it's worth, the yellow LEDs I've tested give similar results to the orange ones in terms of not comparing to the Nichia whites for whole-room illumination.

How do you fit the circuitry in that final 3/8 inch of the snap top vial, and how is it turned on/off... by opening/closing the vial? Sounds interesting.


----------



## hotbeam (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Hey Milky, what does the candle look like lit? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*Hotbeam*, I'll try to get some photos tonight so (hopefully) you can see the lighting pattern of the Candle better. I'll also show it with both white and orange LEDs. For now, you can look at the "ugly duckling" photo much farther up in this thread, in which the Milky Candle is in fact lit!

*All*, the "ugly duckling" prototype no longer exists. In the wee hours of the morning I transferred everything into the PVC pipe coupling I had bought the other day. Some of the components still stick out the top as before, but eventually (hopefully soon) I'll have them inside the Candle so all that pops out the top is the LED itself. And the hanging wires are gone, so all in all we're making progress.

The PVC coupling prototype (let's just call it *prototype #2* /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) does include one indulgence: a Kroll clickie switch in its base! I had one sitting around and needed an on/off switch, then suddenly realized the switch could fit nicely in the base of the coupling. It's actually recessed into the coupling enough that it doesn't interfere at all with standing the Milky Candle upright. It's a surprisingly nice match! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

For now, here are some teaser photos of the Kroll switch in the base: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif












Incidentally, the Kroll isn't screwed into place, but I *did* find a different way to secure it in the housing. It's easily removable, too! Can anyone guess from the photo how it's held in there?

Getting a switch in place to adjust the output level of the LED is still an open issue... in fact, it's *starting to haunt me*... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


----------



## LEDmodMan (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

I have an idea for you about you level adjustment switch. How about somehow attaching a potentiometer to the top screw-on plug where the LEDs stick out. Put it in-line with the LEDs for variable light output. Then, all you have to do is just twist the top cap to adjust the output.


----------



## hotbeam (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

The Candle is starting to take shape... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif Keep it up /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*
*Doug*, I'm finding that the orange LEDs give a nice amount of light for "personal" use, which means sitting on a desk or table next to someone, but they aren't doing very well for whole-room illumination. In fact, a 6400mcd Nichia driven at 6.5mA easily outshines an orange LED driven at 30mA when it comes to illuminating the room! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

How do you fit the circuitry in that final 3/8 inch of the snap top vial, and how is it turned on/off... by opening/closing the vial? Sounds interesting.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your LEDs must be kinda lame. I have some Red/orange 10,000 mcd ones that are quite bright and IMO suitable. Did I send you any?

The circuit is a bit snug for sure. Right now the idea is to open it up, 'pour out' the circuit and cell below it, remove the plastic sheet insulator and put it back in. It stays on until you reverse the process. I've got a bitty microswitch I'm going to try to fit in somehow to actuate against the lid as you suggest. Between the LED, IC, transistor and maybe a level switch it might be too much, I may have to consider dropping the level switch?

Doug Owen


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*Hotbeam*, here are some night photos of *Milky Candle prototype #2* in action in my kitchen. It shows the Candle running at 30mA using a Nichia 6400mcd white LED...






Here's a closer look from slightly different angle. I like the artsy-looking rays extending from the LED, even though they're mainly an artifact of the camera /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ...






This environment was actually like a torture test for the Candle because some of its light was lost through the window behind it, and some was lost on the brown woodwork above and around it. Results are much better in a room with standard white (or even off-white) ceiling! But I thought this photo would be cool... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Doug Owen said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*
*Doug*, I'm finding that the orange LEDs give a nice amount of light for "personal" use, which means sitting on a desk or table next to someone, but they aren't doing very well for whole-room illumination. In fact, a 6400mcd Nichia driven at 6.5mA easily outshines an orange LED driven at 30mA when it comes to illuminating the room! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

How do you fit the circuitry in that final 3/8 inch of the snap top vial, and how is it turned on/off... by opening/closing the vial? Sounds interesting.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your LEDs must be kinda lame. I have some Red/orange 10,000 mcd ones that are quite bright and IMO suitable. Did I send you any?

The circuit is a bit snug for sure. Right now the idea is to open it up, 'pour out' the circuit and cell below it, remove the plastic sheet insulator and put it back in. It stays on until you reverse the process. I've got a bitty microswitch I'm going to try to fit in somehow to actuate against the lid as you suggest. Between the LED, IC, transistor and maybe a level switch it might be too much, I may have to consider dropping the level switch?

Doug Owen 

[/ QUOTE ]

*3/8* inch? *With* level switch? *And* microswitch for on/off? Doh! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif (To quote Homer Simpson. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Your experience could be handy with the Milky Candle at this point, as I've got about 1/2 inch remaining inside the top endcap. So now I officially begin my propaganda campaign to convince you to stuff all the above in there! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Actually, you'll get off easy, because it's already got an on/off switch at the bottom. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif

If your red-orange LEDs are putting out 10,000mcd, I'm pretty sure you didn't send me any! Where did you get them?

The orange ones I just got from Craig (at LEDMuseum.org) are 1710mcd wide-angle (70 degrees if memory serves). They put out a nice color of light for my taste, but as I said, they don't do nearly as well as the white ones for room-filling illumination. It's also hard to make out certain colors when using them, but that's true with all the non-white colors.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif


----------



## Rothrandir (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

looking nice scott!

i'm very impressed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*

*3/8* inch? *With* level switch? *And* microswitch for on/off?

Your experience could be handy with the Milky Candle at this point, as I've got about 1/2 inch remaining inside the top endcap. So now I officially begin my propaganda campaign to convince you to stuff all the above in there! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Actually, you'll get off easy, because it's already got an on/off switch at the bottom. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif

If your red-orange LEDs are putting out 10,000mcd, I'm pretty sure you didn't send me any! Where did you get them?


[/ QUOTE ]

That's about it. Total space is about .485 inches, but some is taken up by the contact below the cell. Yup, it's tight. Like I said, I'm not sure the microswitch can go in without something coming out. It's your fault, you know, you and your 123 cells....

Sure, I'll see what we can fit in the space available. FWIW, I still favor the kit idea somewhat. Please keep that option open?

I thought I'd rounded up 'one of everything' I had kicking around WRT LEDs, must have missed them somehow. I don't recall right off where I got them, LED Supply? As soon as I find them, I'll send you a couple.

Doug Owen


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*Doug*, the kit idea has never gone away; it's a great option. Trouble is, what goes into the kit? The circuit of course, but what about the Kroll switch? The housing? The white LED? Other colors? Or are there multiple versions of the kit?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


----------



## hotbeam (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Ahhh.... the candle takes shape. Brightness is entirely acceptable. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## Bernhard (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Milkyspit, maybe you want to see this link, for neat idea, or just for comparison study /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Cheers...

http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/5cf5/


----------



## rodfran (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

Hello Milky

Kroll switch on the bottom and the 6400 mcd white led-this just keeps getting better and better! Exactly what I am looking for!

That close up picture by the window is totally cool! I told my 12 yr. old about your project and he said he is looking forward to having one in his room. 

I`m going to need one too! Once you get the first batch going, I will want more than one!

You and Doug are doing great stuff here.
Keep up the good work!


----------



## PeterW (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

A few NEEDs for this to be an excellent light:

SMALL. So a tube with 2 CR123s is great.
Stand upright like a candle. The recessed kroll is excellent.
Diffuse beam, so LED's don't dazzle
Wide beam, especially light out the sides and not just straight up, maybe arrange 2 or 3 LED's pointing horizontally and then wrap a diffuser around them. You want the output to be camparable to a candle, as that is what it is replacing.
Waterproof and RUGGED, so no one cares if you knock it over, unlike a real candle.
Long life. Looks like you sorted this one, tens of hours.

This is a very interesting unit, and for the cost you are thinking of, a damn good buy too. I have a krill light and a glo toob that can act as room lights, the krill is too green and the glo toob is too dazzling. a 360degree diffuse white illuminating light will be the ideal, especially with very long life too.

Good luck with the design and keep us posted.

PEter W


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*
*Doug*, the kit idea has never gone away; it's a great option. Trouble is, what goes into the kit? The circuit of course, but what about the Kroll switch? The housing? The white LED? Other colors? Or are there multiple versions of the kit?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Good questions, all.

Great news (the kit is a viable option) as well!

My opinion (worth all of the price you paid) is that 'multiple kits' may be the call. I'd favor a minimal kit as a base (just electronics). If the kit ends up with a socket for the LED (recommended I think), leave the LED out. And the switch, And the housing. Offer a couple of LED types, the housing, switch and whatever else you think folks might like as *options* to be ordered with the kits. Remember, from 'our end' the goal is to get the basic idea out to the members and con them into doing our 'beta testing' for us. A first rate opportunity. Great benefit for fellow CPFers and absolutely top notch evaluation by what may be the most demanding (and knowledgeable) folks in cyber land. Everyone wins!

Keep the cost low and the options open at this stage.

Who knows, one of these guys using a funny name might just have the insight you're looking for.

OK, guys, time to twist Milky's arm a bit......

Doug Owen


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*hotbeam said:*
Ahhh.... the candle takes shape. Brightness is entirely acceptable. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, fully. What's more I *know* (from first hand experience) that the lower level is also quite useful.

You're gonna love it, trust me.

Doug Owen


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*rodfran said:*
Hello Milky

Kroll switch on the bottom and the 6400 mcd white led-this just keeps getting better and better! Exactly what I am looking for!

That close up picture by the window is totally cool! I told my 12 yr. old about your project and he said he is looking forward to having one in his room. 

I`m going to need one too! Once you get the first batch going, I will want more than one!

You and Doug are doing great stuff here.
Keep up the good work!


[/ QUOTE ]

Way to go Rodfran! Keep the pressure on Scott. I understand he wasted several hours *sleeping* of all things last night!

Doug Owen


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*PeterW said:*
A few NEEDs for this to be an excellent light:

SMALL. So a tube with 2 CR123s is great.
Stand upright like a candle. The recessed kroll is excellent.
Diffuse beam, so LED's don't dazzle
Wide beam, especially light out the sides and not just straight up, maybe arrange 2 or 3 LED's pointing horizontally and then wrap a diffuser around them. You want the output to be camparable to a candle, as that is what it is replacing.
Waterproof and RUGGED, so no one cares if you knock it over, unlike a real candle.
Long life. Looks like you sorted this one, tens of hours.

This is a very interesting unit, and for the cost you are thinking of, a damn good buy too. I have a krill light and a glo toob that can act as room lights, the krill is too green and the glo toob is too dazzling. a 360degree diffuse white illuminating light will be the ideal, especially with very long life too.

Good luck with the design and keep us posted.

PEter W 

[/ QUOTE ]

Peter,

Thanks. Super input. I hope Scott has the Marketing and Design divisiions 'on line'. I too agree with you about diffusers, I'm sending him one to fiddle with.

Stay tuned, please.

Doug Owen


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*Hotbeam*, always nice to hear from you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif The brightness should actually get better once my Rank S Nichia's arrive. 9200mcd, baby! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif Not as big a score as your X3T emitters, but in terms of the Milky Candle, a score nonetheless! Hmm, wonder if today's mail has arrived yet...

*Bernhard*, thanks for the heads-up. That's an cute little gadget. The runtime's a little short for my own goals, but very cool nonetheless. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

*rodfran*, many thanks for the compliments! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif We'll get things together as quickly as we can, but expect perhaps a few more weeks before the first version is ready for primetime. Until then, though, I'll keep posting updates here, and when we get closer I'll start taking orders. Thanks again! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

*PeterW*, that's a great checklist; thanks. I'm working on a removable diffuser cap for the Candle. TOB9595 saw an early prototype of the diffuser and seemed to like it. Among other things, the diffuser cap does tend to send more light to the sides and less upward, plus the light is less "dazzling," to use your term. The total output will be somewhat reduced when using the diffuser, though, which is why it will be removable. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regarding the waterproof aspect, it's currently splash resistant but not totally waterproof. Quite honestly, I've been most focused on getting all the parts to fit properly into the housing without as much regard to being waterproof.

Later on, I have every reason to believe we could make it waterproof. It is, after all, housed in a plumbing fitting! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


----------



## brightnorm (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Doug Owen said:*
...That might be the case if either the Ultra or Arc were actually regulated, which they're not. While both seem to be constant current (.24 Amps) from 1.5 to 1.9 Volts, they both draw about half that current at 1.0 Volts. They are simple up converters, not regulators. Light output (and current draw) is definitely higher with a fresh cell... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Doug,

I have nowhere near your knowledge of these things, and I may be misinterpreting what you said, but that really is a bit of a shock. We've been told since its inception that the ARC was "partially regulated" in addition to being up converted. With Peter G's sterling reputation on the line why would he represent his product as something it's not, especially to this discerning group?

Brightnorm


----------



## Doug Owen (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*Doug Owen said:*
...That might be the case if either the Ultra or Arc were actually regulated, which they're not. While both seem to be constant current (.24 Amps) from 1.5 to 1.9 Volts, they both draw about half that current at 1.0 Volts. They are simple up converters, not regulators. Light output (and current draw) is definitely higher with a fresh cell... 

[/ QUOTE ]

I have nowhere near your knowledge of these things, and I may be misinterpreting what you said, but that really is a bit of a shock. We've been told since its inception that the ARC was "partially regulated" in addition to being up converted. With Peter G's sterling reputation on the line why would he represent his product as something it's not, especially to this discerning group?


[/ QUOTE ]

Brightnorm,

Please get over the shock. I too think the world of Peter, his business ethics, and products. I own several and recommend them.

That said, there was no such animal as "partially regulated" when I went to school. I taught this good stuff part time for maybe 20 years and told a bunch of students as much. Sure there are poorly performing regulators, but there is, to the best of my knowledge, no such circuit or definition of what makes up "partially regulated".

Regulators, by definition, are 'closed loop' devices. That is they 'look at the output' and modify what they do to try to maintain constant output as the conditions change. It's the difference between 'lead footing your car down the road' and using cruse control. In the first case you maintain an acceptable *average* speed, but go too slow up hill and overspeed going down. Regulated speed (cruse control) maintains constant speed within the limits of the car.

Regulated lights have constant light output as the battery drains. The Arc and CMG have a 'flat spot' in their Voltage against Current curve, that is they tend to draw about the same current (a bit under a quarter amp) for a fairly wide change in voltage. However, the voltage is going up meaning that even for the same current there's more watts in, more watts out. This means it gets dim (although perhaps not as fast as it could if there wasn't a 'flat spot' on the curve). FWIW, in terms of actual light output, the Arc seems to fall off faster and thus has a slightly longer 'burn time' for the same input (lower light out) as the source drains down'

These systems tend to be 'hotter than target' early on and 'below target' later in the cycle, just not as severely as resistored circuits.

OTOH, the 'Milkycandle' is using a true regulator. It monitors the actual LED current and maintains the current at the desired level as long as the battery allows. Then falls off just like the cruse control in the car. It 'opens and closes the throttle' (in our case a transistor) as needed.

BTW the numbers track. Consider the Arc and CMG at .24 Amps at 1.5 Volts. That's .36 Watts. We're driving the LED at about 30 mA (based on side by side tests with high ranked Nichias) at about 3.6 Volts, .11 Watts. Some claim 60 mA, which may be true but I can't justify it based on output measurements. That would be 33% and 66% efficiency (more or less) respectively. About what you'd expect. That's why they get warm.

OTOH, true regulated circuits, like the EverLED (and I assume my Arc LS, which I've never tested) have higher current at lower voltage to maintain power as things change. The EverLED draws .35 Amps at 4 Volts, .29 at 5, .24 at 6, .20 at 7, .16 at 8 and .13 at 9 Volts in my tests and stay within 3% in terms of light out over that range. A two fold change in input for no change in output.

Like I said, I think the world of Peter, his products and CMG for that matter. However 'partially regulated' is not an engineering term, but a marketing one IMO.

Feel better now?

Doug Owen


----------



## milkyspit (Aug 28, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*All*, I got the 9200mcd Nichia Rank S white LEDs in today's mail. To give you some comparative idea of how bright they are at 30mA (the Milky Candle's highest setting at the moment), it's in the same ballpark as an Infinity Ultra-G running on a brand new alkaline AA.

As Doug said, yes, the lower (6.5mA) light level is fine. I mentioned this before, but for the benefit of those new to the thread, the 6.5mA "low" setting was originally intended to provide nightlight-level room illumination, but it is in fact a little too *bright* for that! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I went "night-night" next to my son one evening last week (so the ghosts wouldn't get him) and used the Milky Candle at 6.5mA in the far corner of the room as a nightlight. I had trouble sleeping that night because once my eyes were dark-adapted, the Candle was lighting the entire room! Now the plan is to have an additional 1.5mA level, and hopefully *that* will finally give us a true "nightlight" mode.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

*PeterW*, with regards to runtime, at the 30mA "high" setting, the Milky Candle should deliver an estimated 43 hours of regulated light. With the 6.5mA "low" setting, runtime inceases to an estimated 200 hours regulated, and at 1.5mA "nightlight" level the estimated runtime becomes 866 hours regulated. My original design goal was to provide at least 24 hours of usable light, so we're doing fine in that regard so far.

The circuit's efficiency allows the Candle also to be used as a sort of recycler; even when running with "spent" cells from high-powered lights (SF, SL Scorpion, Space Needle II, and the like), the Candle should provide a number of hours' illumination. If you use one of those more powerful lights, it's as if you have a free source of fuel for the Candle. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

(If you're willing to run the circuit with 4 'D' cells and the larger size that would entail, the nightlight mode would run somewhere on the order of 1.5 YEARS. Sick! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif )

*LEDmodMan*, my apologies for not getting back to you before. The potentiometer pretty much exactly as you described was my first idea for level control, and it's still a possibility, though there are a couple technical issues that make it a challenge. Regardless, the level control will most likely be on the top of the unit, whatever form it takes. We'll see! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## milkyspit (Sep 2, 2003)

*Re: Introducing... The Milky Candle?*

*Minor updates:*

Flattened another couple batteries today; flash amps on these 123 cells showed 0.01A and 0.12A, respectively. Amazingly (at least to me), they could have still run longer at 6.5mA as dim room lighting or too-bright nightlights! I've seen this happen with a couple sets of batteries now, but it continues to amaze me, sort of the same way one can watch a favorite movie again and again and still enjoy it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif Guess I have simple pleasures! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif

I changed to some "new" half-used batteries so the 30mA regulated mode would work again.

The search continues for the "ultimate" multi-position switch for changing the output level of the light. It's got to be relatively inexpensive, though, and has got to be small enough to fit atop the Candle next to the LED. Suggestions welcome! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

We'll be ready to go with some sort of build soon (well, maybe another couple weeks) for anyone who wants one. Looks like there will be at least two variations: a ready-to-run first-edition Milky Candle completely built, perhaps even loaded with a first set of batteries; and a kit for those inclined to adapt the idea to housings of their choice, tinker with the circuit, etc. All of which are highly encouraged! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

*Hope everyone had an enjoyable Labor Day weekend.*


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## MR Bulk (Sep 2, 2003)

Hey Milks, I can see some huge dining room-style restaurant sales of these. The savings in candles never lit nor even purchased any more would pay for these by themselves. Maybe a candle-flame-shaped diffuser with yellow-orange tinted plastic?

Just my occasional 2¢...


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## shankus (Sep 2, 2003)

I was thinking of the diffusion comments in this thread. 
It seems to me that for the use this light is being designed for, that one of the LEDs that are in the MagmaLED would function very well. 

It has a concave-like inverted cone shape to the top of the LED. It's supposed to make the LED work better in a reflector, somewhat like a side emitting luxeon.
I've not seen one of these MagmaLEDs myself, though.






With that said, where do I sign up to get a couple of Milky Candles when they're available?




I guess my interest is in a kit for standard cell types, instead of 123s, as I don't have any lights that use them. 

Anyway, it's looking good! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## Rothrandir (Sep 2, 2003)

i recently aquired some ultra-glo (optical epoxy), it would be pretty cool to invelop the led in it and shape it in such manner as to evenly spread the beam /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## jcciv (Sep 2, 2003)

I am very interested in both completed units and kits. This looks really cool!!


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## milkyspit (Sep 2, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

*MR Bulk*, that's a great idea. The price differential over the long term would come down to battery cost vs. candles, with secondary consideration for safety and "collateral damage" (scorched tables, linens, etc.). If the 123 cells wouldn't quite make it on the price front, something running off plain AA cells most certainly would. Rechargeables would be even better! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

We could also introduce a flicker circuit, which may be in a later phase of the project anyway. The faux candle flame diffuser is more the type of thing Doug Owen might have some thoughts about; apparently he's got a bit of experience with some of the dipped plastic formulations, such as the stuff that coats the handles of tools...

*shankus*, I'll have to look into the MagmaLED. Great idea. I will say that the LED on the Milky Candle will most likely be socketed, so it could be swapped later for pretty much any other LED. Efficiency may suffer in some cases, but it ought to at least work, and solely by virtue of regulation (even if a little less efficient) should run for quite a while.

BTW, that's a great photo! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Interest noted as well. Thanks! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously, that's the whole point of the kit; people can adapt the basic concept to other power packs, other housings, etc. Hopefully we can all report back on what we've done! For example, I'm told that 3xAA using NiMH rechargeables works nicely with this circuit. I'd like to say that eventually I'll cover most power sources, but with the kit, why wait? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

*jcciv*, many thanks for your interest (end encouragement). A couple, maybe three weeks? The last big issue on this first edition is which switch to use to change output levels, and how to mount it on the Candle. Beyond that, it's just a matter of parts availability. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## TOB9595 (Sep 2, 2003)

*Re:The Milky Candle*

It's great to see a piece develop such as this
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
You're doing a great fun thing guys
Very cool and functional. 
Function is beauty /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Tom


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## milkyspit (Sep 2, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

*Diffusers:*

Here's a look at a couple diffuser candidates...






They're shown next to an ordinary 5mm LED for scale. The large one looks like an absolute monster in this photo, but the funny thing is that it's really the cap for one of those tiny travel-size shampoo bottles, like the ones the maid leaves in your motel bathroom. So everyone go to a motel and get your diffuser! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Er, no. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

Truth be told, the "big guy" to my eye gives a smoother area-filling bunch of light, redirecting most of the light headed for the ceiling out to the sides. I'm no optics expert, but I think it has something to do with the deep ribs running down this diffuser's sides, or maybe the presence of the threads themselves on the inside of the cap. There's a little light lost overall, too, at least speaking subjectively. The biggest issue, though, is that I really don't know where to get any more of these. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

The "little guy" was a surprise present from Doug Owen (thanks!), though I have no idea where he found it. While its output pattern isn't as smooth as that of the "big guy," it's a definite improvement on the plain ol' LED. It also hugs the LED nicely. If this is available readily and cheaply, it wouldn't be a bad initial choice, and we can always continue the search for something even better, should we find it.

If anyone has any "sleepers" out there, please speak up now!


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## hotbeam (Sep 2, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

Milky, some used CR123's coming your way for your tests /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## BobVA (Sep 3, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

I just built a light for my parrot's travel cage from a bare Arc AAA module. I used the transparent body from a disposable roller-ball pen that I sanded with 600 grit paper as a diffuser. 
With the LED firing into one end it lights up like a small flourscent tube and spreads the light around nicely. (The pen body tapers to a point, which helps a great deal) 

Cheers,
Bob


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## Doug Owen (Sep 3, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*
*Diffusers:*

The "little guy" was a surprise present from Doug Owen (thanks!), though I have no idea where he found it. While its output pattern isn't as smooth as that of the "big guy," it's a definite improvement on the plain ol' LED. It also hugs the LED nicely. If this is available readily and cheaply, it wouldn't be a bad initial choice, and we can always continue the search for something even better, should we find it.



[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they're available. They're called 'cliplite', a panel mounting lens (polycarbonate) for 5 mm LEDs with fresnel rings molded in. About 5 for a buck. Since it's intended for viewing (not projecting) it's made that way, to increase the viewing angle and contrast. As another poster suggested, sanding or otherwise breaking up the surface should remove the 'bright spots'. For that matter, so does dressing down the top of the LED lens (although that's not reversible....).

Doug Owen


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## Zelandeth (Oct 1, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

Hmm, Sure that there are such diffusers available from RS. (www.rswww.com) Though finding things on their site can be a little tricky at times. I'll see if I can find anything in the catalog next time I have access to one (gonna have to buy one I think).


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## Zelandeth (Oct 18, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

Finally...by accident I come across the page with some diffusers that might be of use on. At least a few of them are in white.

EDIT:

Sorry about that, found out why the link was being a pain, RS log actions after you go into the site, so the session had apparently timed out...or the site is just being a pain, which it usually is.

Also, sorry about the long link, the joys of posting at crazy hours of the morning.


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## James S (Oct 18, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

As Doug has already suggested I've sanded or filed down several led's to get a bigger flood out of them. This actually works very well to diffuse the light. You should try sanding down the head of the LED. I generally do it until I'm past the tapering of the lens, but stop before I reach the die /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I used a diamond file, which was a pain in the neck and took quite a while, but a grinding wheel or even an electric sander turned upside down would do an easier faster (and probably better) job.

A filed down LED in that smaller diffuser would probably work VERY well. Worth trying anyway!


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## milkyspit (Oct 18, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

*Zelandeth*, not that I don't appreciate your efforts (which I do!)... but the link doesn't seem to work. Plus it's so long that it makes ALL the posts too wide to read comfortably! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

Think you could edit your post to correct the link, and give it a short name using the "URL" and "/URL" BBS tags?

PM me if you need help as far as how to do this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Thanks! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

*James S*, great news! Nice to hear from someone who's done that successfully. It always SEEMED like it would work. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Incidentally, did you have to polish the plastic on the LED after filing to make it clear again?


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## Gene (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

Any updates Milky?


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## milkyspit (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

*Gene*, an order of circuit boards will be made within the next couple days, and once they come in the assembly will begin. Doug Owen will be assisting with some of the effort, and since he and I are on opposite coasts, shipping time will affect assembly speed, too.

I'll try to post some new photos soon of the near-final design for this pilot run of the Milky Candle, and will start a new thread when I do.

It's also worth noting that there will likely be SEVERAL variations on the basic concept! This pilot run is merely the first of those. While the circuit will remain largely the same in all variants, they'll be built for different types of housings, different battery configurations, etc. A veritable "Candle" shop! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif

Sorry about the delay. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Although the time has been used to work through a number of issues and improve the product! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## rodfran (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

Hi Milky, 
I`m still interested! Looking forward to seeing the pictures of the pilot run.


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## shankus (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

Bring on the propaganda! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif


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## milkyspit (Oct 28, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

*rodfran*, I haven't forgotten about you! Thanks for hanging in there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

*shankus*, first the EverMag and now this... are you trying to fill up ALL my nonexistent free time? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif


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## Phaserburn (Oct 28, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

Staying tuned...


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## milkyspit (Oct 31, 2003)

*Re: PHOTOS GALORE! Introducing... The Milky Candle*

*Some Thanks.*

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but I want to mention that Doug Owen has been a big help through this entire exercise. He stepped forward with a circuit designed to my specifications, pointed me to sources for parts and tools where appropriate, offered me the benefit of his experiences, and as I mentioned most recently, is helping me assemble the pilot run. I just wanted to thank him for that in public. He's made the development process easier and more sane, and that of course counts for a lot!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Okay, now on with the assembly... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


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