# Infared (LED) light to see veins in a patients arm...Yes, thats right...



## KDOG3 (Mar 7, 2012)

I am possibly going to pursue a career change as phlebotomist and anyone whose had blood drawn knows some people have hard to find veins which can lead to a painful experience. I've seen they've come out with these devices that shine a infared or near-infared light down on the patients arm that makes the veins just jump out cuz the light makes the veins turn black. (It picks up the iron in the bloodstream.) 

My question and possible idea is could there be a flashlight that has the same wavelength Ir driver/emitter setup to have the same effect that I could own myself?

I apologize in advance to the forum administrators if this is in the wrong forum, but since the infared emitters are LED style I figured it could go here.


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## CarpentryHero (Mar 7, 2012)

If you can find the emitter, someone like Nailbender could make it into a P60 dropin.
There are lights that are ir or have it filters. Not my strong suit but do you know the wavelength?


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## KDOG3 (Mar 7, 2012)

Unfortunatley I don't. I know one device was called "Vein Viewer" though. I'll have to try to look it up.


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## alpg88 (Mar 7, 2012)

lol, 
you can't see a vein with ir flashlight, you can see your veins in fingers if you shine lights from the other side of the arm, red light seem to work better that white, but it only works on fingers, and even than you cant really tell how deep the vein is.
flir would be able to see veins.

but if some one tried to take my blood, and needed help seeing veins, no way i would let some one like that even touch me, you really should be able to find veins with your eyes and using skills, before attempting to draw blood, from human or even animal, i'm pretty sure no hospital will allow it, can't say i disagree.


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## jerry i h (Mar 7, 2012)

CarpentryHero said:


> ...do you know the wavelength?


LED Supply has 630nm (10,000mcd) and 660nm (2,000 mcd). However, these are low power 5mm LED's. You could stick them into a Photon or generic; I did this trick with a UV 5mm LED. If these are correct wavelengths, you could someone here on CPF to mod a headlamp with several of these things you could wear during your shift.


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## KDOG3 (Mar 7, 2012)

Well heres a link to a video of one of the devices:

http://www.christiedigital.com/en-u...videos/Pages/VeinViewer-IV-Demonstration.aspx



Pretty neat. I think I would rather have my blood drawn with someone using this for accuracy than "searching" for a good vein, wouldn't you?

Obviously an Ir flashlight wouldn't be as fancy as this but it would just be something to HELP. by making a hard to find vein stand out so I could be more accurate where I stick.


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## res1cue (Mar 7, 2012)

KDOG3 said:


> I am possibly going to pursue a career change as phlebotomist and anyone whose had blood drawn knows some people have hard to find veins which can lead to a painful experience. I've seen they've come out with these devices that shine a infared or near-infared light down on the patients arm that makes the veins just jump out cuz the light makes the veins turn black. (It picks up the iron in the bloodstream.)
> 
> My question and possible idea is could there be a flashlight that has the same wavelength Ir driver/emitter setup to have the same effect that I could own myself?
> 
> I apologize in advance to the forum administrators if this is in the wrong forum, but since the infared emitters are LED style I figured it could go here.



A good high output will do it for bigger veins.. but veins like that you won't need help with anyways

Used to be an ER phlebotomist, and my trick was always look in the shoulder, you will be surprised. My last day on the job, I put a 14 gauge in a coding man's shoulder. Veins up there tend not to have any sclerosis or intimal thickening, they are also well anchored

They do make specialized lights to see veins, but really they are all kind of gimmicky. It's all about practice, you'll be fine without a light


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## KDOG3 (Mar 7, 2012)

A 14 gauge? Holy... Ow...

Oh I'm definetly going to learn how to do it without any gadgets, I won't have a choice - we gotta do 100 successful sticks before we can sit for the board. Just something like that would help narrow down those pain in the arse situations, no pun intended.


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## Sgt. LED (Mar 8, 2012)

Hey! 
About a year and a half ago (I think) I was on the phone talking to a fellow at Peak and he was talking about making a pocket sized light that could do this very well.
I never had one mind you but he said he could make them.
Maybe you could try to get ahold of someone there.


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## Karl666 (Mar 8, 2012)

Hi,

Here is a picture I took with a FLIR P640 thermal imager. It shows the veins in a persons feet. I'm a torch nut and a qualified thermographer 

EDIT : Looks like the image is not showing. I linked from flickr but it seems not to show. Seems it only shows if I l'm logged into my flickr account. not sure how to make it public ? oh well..


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## res1cue (Mar 8, 2012)

KDOG3 said:


> A 14 gauge? Holy... Ow...
> 
> Oh I'm definetly going to learn how to do it without any gadgets, I won't have a choice - we gotta do 100 successful sticks before we can sit for the board. Just something like that would help narrow down those pain in the arse situations, no pun intended.



That particular man was kind of beyond the pain stage, and definitely needed one 

Also if you have trouble, you can get a doc to hold an ultrasound to the pt's bicep for like a deep brachial/cephalic


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## pblanch (Mar 8, 2012)

Or just put in an IO.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Mar 8, 2012)

Vein Viewer doesn't make the veins show up in a simple way...it is a projector system.

VeinViewer uses near-infrared (NIR) light *and other patented technologies* to detect subcutaneous blood 
and create a *digital image* of the patient's superficial vein pattern* projected directly onto the surface of the skin* in real time.

no simple flashlight is going to show veins, you need serious equipment like the VeinViewer


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## notrefined (Mar 8, 2012)

I've used my EDC to transilluminate for venipuncture. Sufficiently intense white light works reasonably well, but you will only ever get superficial veins this way. If the superficial veins aren't adequate for your purpose, then ultrasound imaging is your next best bet- and that will typically require a physician to perform the procedure (which I am). I don't really believe there is much margin between transilluminating with white light vs. red, aside from reduced source intensity requirements. My application is primarily for venous access (starting IVs), however.

My finacee, who has been a phlebotomist, would tell you that if you can't feel the vein you shouldn't be sticking. And I would tend to agree- for a blood draw, anything you can't feel will probably collapse before you can draw an adequate sample.


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## CarpentryHero (Mar 8, 2012)

127.0.0.1 said:


> Vein Viewer doesn't make the veins show up in a simple way...it is a projector system.
> 
> VeinViewer uses near-infrared (NIR) light *and other patented technologies* to detect subcutaneous blood
> and create a *digital image* of the patient's superficial vein pattern* projected directly onto the surface of the skin* in real time.
> ...



Definitely, I figured the Origional poster knows that we can't see IR and that he'd be using a video camera in night vision mode. (I wish my iPhone didn't have an IR filter)


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## CarpentryHero (Mar 8, 2012)

Karl666 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here is a picture I took with a FLIR P640 thermal imager. It shows the veins in a persons feet. I'm a torch nut and a qualified thermographer
> 
> EDIT : Looks like the image is not showing. I linked from flickr but it seems not to show. Seems it only shows if I l'm logged into my flickr account. not sure how to make it public ? oh well..



These are definitely men's feet as they aren't reeding at subzero temperatures like my Wife's feet :naughty:


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## Fresh Light (Mar 8, 2012)

They have a couple of the VeinViewers here at my work. I have used them a number of times with pretty good success. The machine does a thermal scan of what ever is under it then it uses a green and black monochrome DLP projector to project the thermal image onto the skin in real time. I know when they aquired the machines the representative said green and black was chosen because it works the best with all the different skin colors.

It's been a long time since i've had that unit out and when I wanted it the dept that had it put it in storage because it's really not that useful. If IV access is really needed and nothing is felt or seen ultasound is better in my opinion. I've not used the Vein lights but like they've said above, kinda gimicky. The lights were reddish orange LEDs from what I remember and around 300.00 in the book. Something like the VeinViewer is quite expensive though.


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## Karl666 (Mar 8, 2012)

CarpentryHero said:


> These are definitely men's feet as they aren't reeding at subzero temperatures like my Wife's feet :naughty:



LOL 

Bit off topic but I normally use the camera for building inspections although recently ive been using it for varied applications. I rigged up a parallel charging cradle for some 18650's the other day and used my Thunder AC680 to charge them. All 3 batteries went in at the same voltage (3.7v) but noticed that during the CC phase one of the batteries showed a slight increase in temperature compared to the others. Wasnt noticable to the touch but the camera clearly shows it. Ive marked this one and will be keeping an eye on it during future charging session. All came off at 4.18v

Back to the thread - I'm no expert in the medical field but would have thought an effective way of detecting veins without laying hands on a patient would be thermal scanning. The deeper ones would be a little more challenging but any near the surface normally show very well. My camera is very sensitive < 25mk which enables me to pick up very minute changes in temperature. I've scanned many poeple for hand and leg issues and the camera is very revealing. IR cameras price range from approx £1200 - £35,000. Generally you get what you pay for. having said that, FLIR have recently release a new range of cameras that have very good sensitivity for a reasonable price.

Did you manage to see the image I posted ? I'm not able to see it so I thought there must be something wrong. This is the first image ive posted on this forum.

Regards
Karl.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Mar 8, 2012)

image is fine Karl666


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## res1cue (Mar 8, 2012)

pblanch said:


> Or just put in an IO.


 Yeah but I don't trust them, they all start infiltrating sooner or later. Plus sometimes it is overkill


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## Karl666 (Mar 8, 2012)

127.0.0.1 said:


> image is fine Karl666



Thank you.


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## CarpentryHero (Mar 8, 2012)

Karl666 said:


> LOL
> 
> Bit off topic but I normally use the camera for building inspections although recently ive been using it for varied applications. I rigged up a parallel charging cradle for some 18650's the other day and used my Thunder AC680 to charge them. All 3 batteries went in at the same voltage (3.7v) but noticed that during the CC phase one of the batteries showed a slight increase in temperature compared to the others. Wasnt noticable to the touch but the camera clearly shows it. Ive marked this one and will be keeping an eye on it during future charging session. All came off at 4.18v
> 
> ...



Yep the image shows nicely, I'm a city maintenance carpenter and our department has a few heat vision cameras. Works great for finding leaks and gaps in insulation, I don't have the course to use it but they are an awesome and handy tool. 
I wish I could afford a flir camera, but at 8-14 grand is a little much for my likes. Can also be used as the most expensive stud finder ever made  LOL


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## okent (Mar 8, 2012)

I assume you are talking about this: http://www.tnvc.com/shop/battleview-infrared-vascular-trans-illuminator/
I was at the SHOT show in January and got to handle one of these. Works very well for those who have to start IV's in total blackout conditions.
Of course you would have to have night vision on to make this work.

What I thought was way better was some high res thermal. I played with a imager that was so sensitive I could see the veins in my fingers.


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## Karl666 (Mar 9, 2012)

CarpentryHero said:


> Yep the image shows nicely, I'm a city maintenance carpenter and our department has a few heat vision cameras. Works great for finding leaks and gaps in insulation, I don't have the course to use it but they are an awesome and handy tool.
> I wish I could afford a flir camera, but at 8-14 grand is a little much for my likes. Can also be used as the most expensive stud finder ever made  LOL



Yeah - helped me find this stud wall while I was trying to hang the mirror in the spare room. I know what you mean about the price - ouch ! If you just want to play and not worry too much about accuracy then there are plenty of alternative makes that can be bought for around £1000 ( not sure what that it is in dollars )


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## kzb (Mar 9, 2012)

There is definitely a flashlight on the market which emits at 660nm. It is marketed as some kind of health device, it did not say it was for finding blood vessels. The implication was that deep red light has some health benefit. But how niaive am I, because clearly that must be what it is _really_ for...!

I know this because I found it via Google or Alta Vista when I was searching for red-LED flashlights. I will try and dig back through my (extensive) history to re-find it.


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## kzb (Mar 9, 2012)

Try looking at this

http://www.theledlight.com/XeLED-660nm-red-flashlights.html


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## z17813 (Mar 9, 2012)

This might be one of the nerdiest threads I have read on this forum. It's awesome.


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## CarpentryHero (Mar 9, 2012)

@karl666 that's awesome, I can see the screws and nails too


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## Karl666 (Mar 9, 2012)

CarpentryHero said:


> @karl666 that's awesome, I can see the screws and nails too




Here are few more.

The hot area (shown in red) in this image under the window near the dish was confirmed as a wasp nest inside the cavity wall.






The dark blue and purple areas in the image below shows missing insulation in the loft space above this bedroom ceiling


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## caelifera (Mar 10, 2012)

I am a RN and have stabbed a few folks over the years, so I just wanted to add my $0.02.

My hospital has a Vein Viewer, and it would probably make a better trotline weight than a medical device. It is huge, and in my usage, not capable of finding deeper veins which I can palpate. 

Over time, you will develop the skills necessary to palpate and stick accurately. When nothing can be felt, I have used my 230 lumen EDC with more success than the Vein Viewer. In a dark room, the bright LED pressed against the skin will illuminate a vein enough on either side of the bezel so that you can mark it's location with a sharpie.


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## flashy bazook (Mar 18, 2012)

I just checked my red LED Surefire L1 for this purpose. I pushed it against the skin and moved about.

There is a subtle effect I might have not noticed if I was not looking, it can sort of produce a dark outline of a vein around the arm (elbow area, other side of course) and close to the wrist. Not too visible, but definitely there.

Mark down another use for this amazing red L1!!


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## Norm (Mar 18, 2012)

KDOG3 said:


> A 14 gauge.


 I always used 14 gauge during my ten years on dialysis.



CarpentryHero said:


> These are definitely men's feet as they aren't reeding at subzero temperatures like my Wife's feet :naughty:


Not sure about the above quote, you may want to read it again. Cold feet = Man, "like my wife's Feet"? :thinking:

Norm


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## CarpentryHero (Mar 18, 2012)

They ADR men's feet because there warm, my Wife's feet are subzero.... It that better???


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## Norm (Mar 18, 2012)

I just re read the quote and what I'd written make no sense at all, I read aren't as are.
It's 6:30am here, maybe I need a coffee before I reply to any more threads.

Norm


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## eatkabab (Jan 4, 2014)

Anyone know what kinda projector these vein finder things use? It looks like a laser projector but it must be so small to fit into that machine.

Also, I suspect that night vision cameras (security cameras) don't have IR filters given that they have IR LED arrays...so why doesn't night time video from a security camera show veins?

I know I'm probably fooling myself, but this thing looks pretty easy to make. If in fact all it takes is no IR filter over a CCD and a long pass filter, I think I can get one running from spare parts + chepo eBay goods.


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## Xplo (Jan 5, 2014)

Hey OP, I'm in a lab tech program and just finished a phleb rotation at a busy clinic with 400+ successful sticks. Didn't sit for the board (I'm not going for a phleb cert) but FWIW the clinic I did the rotation at would happily hire me, or so they said.

Vein viewers only sound like a good idea if you have no phleb experience. Once you get into actually doing it, you're going to find out that you use your fingers and your knowledge of anatomy to find veins most of the time, this also allows you to assess the condition of the veins (as someone said above, if you can't feel it, you probably shouldn't stick it). And then you're going to realize how clunky and useless those things really are.


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## yellow (Jan 6, 2014)

CarpentryHero said:


> men's feet because there warm, my Wife's feet are


I almost spilled my coffee over the screen



I do not think that this really makes sense, as - at least where I want to be "injected" - there should be bright enough room lights,
and with good white light sources the whole "seeing" should be way improved - imho of course, but I am no expert.
F.e. I am wondering how to put a needle somewhere while holding a light ...
:thinking:

unfortunately I dont have very deep red led just to test that "veins showing up", all the "normal" reds do the same - the same as my UV led(s) are doing --> show _nothing_ at all.
Both ends of the spectrum are considerably worse than any white light.
Sure that this really works?
(unfortunately the lights linked here in this thread do not show a picture while being shined onto skin ...)


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## Dario (Nov 9, 2018)

Digging up an old thread to see if there are any good options now under $100. My wife is a medic and would like a light to help find veins (or arteries - not sure which). Generally not needed, but sometimes helpful. Her EDC can work, but heat is an issue. Been reading the at red LED in a specific range works best. Not really sure. 

Any medics or other heath care professionals have a recommendation for something affordable and very portable?


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## usdiver (Nov 9, 2018)

I m not a medic but First-Light USA (American company) has a Tomahawk MC (multi color) with secondary red, green, and red+green which performs really well where the red OR green falls short. Not sure if this is what you are after but I m currently working on some videos of these on YouTube. My channel is sdsteveb and soon may change but not at this time


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## alpg88 (Nov 9, 2018)

AFAIK Tomahawk MC has nothing to do with medical devices. i'm not sure how green and red together will be helpful, or would do something either green or red wont, sounds like a marketing pitch, nothing more, and i have build over few dozens of multicolored lights.


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## usdiver (Nov 10, 2018)

alpg88 said:


> AFAIK Tomahawk MC has nothing to do with medical devices. i'm not sure how green and red together will be helpful, or would do something either green or red wont, sounds like a marketing pitch, nothing more, and i have build over few dozens of multicolored lights.



Medical device no but the red/green mix shows blood better as well as other things that the red or green alone do not. Marketing pitch? Could be but I Don’t think so. If it were then I d have already sold mine but it is much more useful than my Tomahawk NV


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## Dario (Nov 10, 2018)

usdiver said:


> I m not a medic but First-Light USA (American company) has a Tomahawk MC (multi color) with secondary red, green, and red+green which performs really well where the red OR green falls short. Not sure if this is what you are after but I m currently working on some videos of these on YouTube. My channel is sdsteveb and soon may change but not at this time


Thanks for the reference. Any info on how/why red/green works better? That light is likely more expensive than she'd be willing to buy. I think this is an very occasional use item and she's getting her herself (vs. the company).


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## RobertMM (Nov 11, 2018)

There's a product at our hospital called "wee sight" that uses three 5mm red LEDs, you put it under a pediatric patient's hand and turn lights out to help see little veins.

I've found my EDC lights work well too but have to be careful about heat.
I used a LX2 and L1 for sometime and have a red filter for them but I simply didn't think of using the red for venipuncture.

I think I'll try to find it and give it a try next shift.


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