# 3.0v rechargeables (incl. Markcm's new cells)



## AFAustin (Sep 24, 2005)

J.S. Burly sells the 3.0v (not 3.6v) rechargeable cells and charger, and refers to a prior CPF thread w/ "beta tester" reviews of this set-up. 

https://www.jsburlys.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=87

I'm interested in these as a possible rechargeable solution for an A2, L2, and/or L1. Can't find the "reviews" thread and would be much obliged if anyone can point me to it.

Also wondering if anyone has knowledge of the cheaper version at batteryspace:

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1641


Another issue is whether these cells are sized slim enough to fit these SFs.


Thanks for any help.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

I don't know about these 3V RCR123A cells, but nearly all so-called 3V RCR123A cells have turned out to be mislabeled or to offer woefully low capacity--on the order of 200 mAh. 

An exception may be these. I've been in touch with the vendor and told him that many of us would welcome such a cell if it lived up to its claim of delivering 3.0V and 600 mAh. I'll see if he's ready to decloak and comment.


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## picard (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

I have Js Burley 3V cr123A. It is actually 3.2 volt come off the charger. It is very good. I used them on my Gladius. I can't use on PM6 3 watt LED HAIII because it doesn't have heat dissipation feature of Gladius.


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## AFAustin (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

Paul,

Could be a great find there. Thanks.

I checked the website and couldn't find where you can buy extras of just the cells (w/o charger)?

You're right, if they have decent capacity, that would be key. Next issue (for me) would be sizing---slim enough to fit all the rechargeable-challenged SFs (A2, L2, L1, etc.) ?

Please post what you learn from the vendor.

Thanks again,

Andrew


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## taiji (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

Well I took the fall and ordered the 650 ma 3.0 v rcr123s from the site Paul_in_Maryland mentioned for my T3, XO3 and Predator. We'll see how it performs. I'll post updates.


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## Markcm (Sep 24, 2005)

*RCR123A 3.0v rechargeables*



Paul_in_Maryland said:


> I don't know about these 3V RCR123A cells, but nearly all so-called 3V RCR123A cells have turned out to be mislabeled or to offer woefully low capacity--on the order of 200 mAh.
> 
> An exception may be these. I've been in touch with the vendor and told him that many of us would welcome such a cell if it lived up to its claim of delivering 3.0V and 600 mAh. I'll see if he's ready to decloak and comment.



Hi folks, my name is Mark and I have been reading the CPF for about a year now. I recently met Paul_in_Mayland regarding some Li-ion cells and a spring loaded charger for 18650/ 17500 cells; I am the fellow Paul has linked to above at www.e-lectronics.net.

I have several rechargeable CR123 cells of 3.7 volts, 3.0 by chemistry and 3.0 by IC reduction to offer. 

I have done some bench testing for comparison and would like to do some more. I have plotted data of the various cells which I will post soon.

-Markcm


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## AFAustin (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

picard,

Thanks for your post about the J.S. Burly cells. Is heat dimension a big issue with them? Ever tried to fit them into an A2, L2, or L1?

taiji,

Glad you took the plunge on Paul's find. Look forward to reading your impressions of them.


Mark,

Very interested to read your post. Welcome to CPF!

I think you will find that a lot of CPFers are interested in a rechargeable solution to the many lights that have problems accepting---either because of excess voltage or excess diameter (sizing)---the common 3.6v R123 cells.

Look forward to your input.


Andrew


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## Glow Bug (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

This sounds great to me!


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## Markcm (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*



AFAustin said:


> picard,
> 
> Mark,
> 
> ...



Thanks for the welcome! 

As Paul mentioned, I do have RCR123A 600 mAh cells and Goncz Hi TECH Flashlights; I have received very good feedback from folks who have purchased these batteries and I'm keeping a list of reported compatibility. I have all the manufacturer spec's on these but the real test is in a torch, and you must consider they are about 1/2 the capacity of a primary cell so we know right off the bat that the will not perform as well. The question is, will they hold enough energy to make the savings worth the reduced run time. Goncz Hi TECH Flashlights


-Mark


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## picard (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

Js Burly CR123A 3.2V will fit into SF A2, L1, L2. I dont' know if those lights have heat dissipation feature like Gladius. You should email SF to find out about it. 

I have gladius, PM6 3w and wolfeye M90turbo incandescent lights. They are better than SF. I don't have A2, L1 or L2 to test the batteries. sorry. I check flashlightreview.com site but it doesn't mention about CR123A 3.2 volt with those lights.


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## AFAustin (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

Thanks, picard.


Also, here's the e-mail response I just got from Jon at J.S. Burley's:

Hello Andrew,

The batteries do fit but the current regulator in these cut the amperage a little below where you might like it. They will run the light but not as long as you might like. They work best in 1watt applications like the old Arc.

Thanks
Jon


On 24 Sep 2005 18:58:40 -0000, Andrew Forsythe <[email protected]> wrote: 

Hi.

I am wondering about the following product as a rechargeable solution for the Surefire A2, L2, and /or L1:

3Volt JSB-123 Set
[3V-JSB-123-Set] $30.70


Is the lower voltage the ticket for these lights? 

Is the diameter small enough to fit in these lights?

What is the capacity of the cells?


Thanks very much.


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## picard (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

by the way, battery space cr123a rechargeable isn't 3V at all. It is 3.7 V but it comes off charger at 4.4 volt


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## Markcm (Sep 25, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*



picard said:


> by the way, battery space cr123a rechargeable isn't 3V at all. It is 3.7 V but it comes off charger at 4.4 volt



There are several types of "reduced voltage" rechargeable CR123's and they ARE NOT all the same. The RCR123 3.0ic as I like to call it is totally different than the Powerizer. The Powerizer white/orange cell does not have any PCB or min/max voltage protection and uses a totally different method of voltage reduction....and a different charger, don't mix. I know everyone wants a one-charger-fits all solution but that's not practical considering all the variations in battery chemistry and several different types of internal PCB's.

None of these are a 1 for 1 perfect replacement for the disposable primary cell but they are getting much closer than a traditional Li-ion.

Also note that many of these rechargeable cr123's are slightly larger than a tradition CR123, my site states the dimensions of the cell I offer and a list compatible/ non-compatible lights (with my cell) as reported by users.

For the most recent information on the RCR123 3.0ic I offer, check with my site www.e-lectronics.net 

-Markcm


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## Data (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

Mark

I do not think so. I just got the Battery Space 3V cells too and off the charger they were way over 4V. And they instantly fried the bulb in my E2e. They do not drop to 3.2V. After 2 days off the charger they are still at 4.31V. And after 120 seconds running at full power in my LC they are at 4.26V (no load).

I would love to try out your cells with a voltage regulator in them. What is the max current you can pull from them?

Picard

Good to finally talk to you first hand captain. What are your orders sir?

Cheers
Data


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## picard (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

Mark

I do not think so. I just got the Battery Space 3V cells too and off the charger they were way over 4V. And they instantly fried the bulb in my E2e. They do not drop to 3.2V. After 2 days off the charger they are still at 4.31V. And after 120 seconds running at full power in my LC they are at 4.26V (no load).

I would love to try out your cells with a voltage regulator in them. What is the max current you can pull from them?

Picard

Good to finally talk to you first hand captain. What are your orders sir?

Cheers
Data



Good to see you again Data. How are you?  Do you like your new command at USS Titan, Sovereign class II battleship, right? It is beautiful ship , isn't she.
Lets take the batteries down to science lab for further examination.

Js Burley is the only vendor that I know who sells regulated CR123A 3.2V. That't the voltage come off the charger. It is well below the max tolerance of Gladius. Gladius can handle max 7V. JS burley battery is made by Sanyo. It is very good. It looks identical to regular sanyo battery except for the red letters " rechargeable battery" on the cover. Sanyo battery works well for my Gladius which can handle max of 7V.

Other vendors sell unregulated batteries from China because I don't recognize them as Japanese brand name at all.


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## Markcm (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*



picard said:


> Js Burley is the only vendor that I know who sells regulated CR123A 3.2V. That't the voltage come off the charger. It is well below the max tolerance of Gladius. Gladius can handle max 7V. JS burley battery is made by Sanyo. It is very good. It looks identical to regular sanyo battery except for the red letters " rechargeable battery" on the cover. Sanyo battery works well for my Gladius which can handle max of 7V.
> 
> Other vendors sell unregulated batteries from China because I don't recognize them as Japanese brand name at all.



Hi guys,

My cells (click here to see them) are not Panasonic and they are made in China although they definitely do have an IC built into them. 

To accurately measure the voltage of these cells you must use a resistor such as a 1k ohm across the terminals to active the PCB, these cells when fresh of the charger and loaded may output as much as 3.4v and will settle to 3.0v as the "nominal voltage." The PCB low voltage shut off will kick in at around 2.0 volts [when measured externally] but is actually a cell voltage of 2.7v "pre-pcb". Note that this is a standard Li-ion behind the PCB.

It is noted that these are not a 1 for 1 replacement of a primary CR123 as the voltage is still higher and the cell dimensions are about .8mm greater in diameter and .5mm longer causing fitment issues in some lights and the PCB actually trips in some high current lights because the draw exceeds the max current threshold of the PCB; this can sometimes be alleviated by a few clicks on the tailcap which allows small bursts of current to the bulb before the PCB trips, the bulb warms which in turn increases the resistance, lowers the current flow to a point below the threshold of the PCB.

For the most recent information on the RCR123 3.0ic I offer, check with my site www.e-lectronics.net 

-Markcm


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## AFAustin (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

Mark,

What is the diameter on your cells? I'm wondering if they will fit in an A2, L2, or L1?

There is a new thread here that has some measurements on certain lights and cells: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=93545

Thanks again for your input.

Andrew


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## Markcm (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*



AFAustin said:


> Mark,
> 
> What is the diameter on your cells? I'm wondering if they will fit in an A2, L2, or L1?
> 
> ...



Hi Andrew, 

The spec sheet calls out: Ф16.3(±0.3)*34.3(±0.2)mm

I just grabbed 5 random cells and my not so great .001 resolution plastic (units collected in inch then converted to mm) caliper which I have handy right now, one thing I noticed is that the cells do have a (.004") .127mm rise where the nickel band runs along the length for the IC. Here are the max diameters measured where the band is for each of the 5 cells:


Ф16.56mm, 34.595
Ф16.73mm, 34.544
Ф16.73mm, 34.518
Ф16.69mm, 34.519
Ф16.71mm, 34.522
I will call these un-official data points for now becuase of the poor quality of calipers I have on hand tonight and leave them off the official cell size thread. I do notice that the manufacturing of my latest cells show a little difference in the button and the spec above came with my previous batch. 

Regards,
Mark


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## AFAustin (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

Mark,

Thanks for the measurements. Looks like the diameter is a bit too much for an A2 (16.70mm).

Haven't seen a post yet with barrel diameter for an L2 or L1.

Thanks again for your efforts.

Andrew


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## Data (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*

Mark

Those would fit in the SPY. 


Dave


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## Markcm (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: J.S. Burly 3.0v rechargeables*



AFAustin said:


> Mark,
> 
> Thanks for the measurements. Looks like the diameter is a bit too much for an A2 (16.70mm).
> 
> ...


I am keeping the list of compatible and non-compatible flashlights up to date on my web site, check there for the latest information.


-Markcm


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## Markcm (Sep 27, 2005)

*Rechargalbe CR123 3.0 IC protected from e-lectronics.net*

This plot shows the exact characteristics of my RCR123 3.0ic cells in use.

The Light blue line is the data from the IC regulated 3.0 600mAh cells I have, note how they start at 3.2 volts then drop to 3.0 by 15 minutes and have a fairly flat discharge until the end when the IC shuts off at lower range of 2 volts which is actually a cell voltage (if measured before the pcb drop) of ~ 2.7v

The latest information on this cell is kept up to date on my website.

-Markcm


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## picard (Sep 27, 2005)

wow. mark batteries look very good. I got to order some to increase my collection. 

Should I store my batteries in pelican box with foam to separate them to prevent reaction between batteries?:rock:


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## Markcm (Sep 27, 2005)

picard said:


> wow. mark batteries look very good. I got to order some to increase my collection.
> 
> Should I store my batteries in pelican box with foam to separate them to prevent reaction between batteries?:rock:



Hi, for some reason I can not post to CPF during the day from the computer I have (firewall or browser settings are not allowing it) 

I'm not sure what you mean by "reaction between batteries" are you referring to chemistry? Behind the IC, these are a standard Li-ion 3.7 rechargeable cell. I recommend these cells be handled with the same safety precautions as any Li-ion protected cell. These do have a ribbon conductor strap below the shrink covering as all protected cells do; this is an area you do not want to smash or force into a torch if it does not fit as you could cause a short if damaged.

 

The biggest safety issue to note is that these cells must be charged with a unique charger which outputs 4.4volts, this is safe yet required with these cells because of the IC. I was skeptical of this at first so I followed up with the engineering department at the manufacturer and they confirmed the 4.4 is required. Not to mention I tried to charge them with a standard 4.2 volt charger... sure enough, it didn't do the job. 

 

You must be careful not to charge an unprotected cell with this 4.4 charger as it looks identical other than the ID on the sticker on the bottom of the charger.


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## taiji (Sep 28, 2005)

Mark,

Welcome to CPF.

I've received my 3.0v RCR123's today. that was fast. They are now charging. More updates to post.....

edit: additional update

the charge indicator LED (red for charging) did not come on while charging the cells. However, the cells felt warm to the touch. Might just be a faulty LED. I hope the LED works when charging is complete .


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## Markcm (Sep 28, 2005)

taiji said:


> Mark,
> 
> Welcome to CPF.
> 
> ...


 
If the Led is faulty in either state, I will replace the charger for you.

-Mark


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## CTR (Sep 30, 2005)

Mark, 

can you tell me how these batteries perform against a standard non-rechargeable CR123 please? I know the disposable CR123 are 3.0V so I guess your batteries will not cause much dimming but in terms of percentage can you give me a rough estimate as to its staminer when compared to disposable CR123?

I am considering an Inova T3 and would like to get some of these batteries for it.

Also I am in London UK, do you ship abroad? thanks!


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Sep 30, 2005)

Mark will have the final word, but I'll hazard a guess that these will deliver about 40 percent the runtime of a good 123A under a heavy load, 45 percent under a light load. I say that because I think these rechargeables are rated for 600 mAh at a 0.2C discharge rate (5 hours), which I'm guessing would translate into about 475 mAh at a 1C discharge rate (1 hour). A good 123A would deliver about 1200 to 1300 mAH at 1C.


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## Markcm (Sep 30, 2005)

*Rechageable CR123 3.0v from Markcm*



CTR said:


> Mark,
> 
> can you tell me how these batteries perform against a standard non-rechargeable CR123 please? I know the disposable CR123 are 3.0V so I guess your batteries will not cause much dimming but in terms of percentage can you give me a rough estimate as to its staminer when compared to disposable CR123?
> 
> ...



Hi CTR,

As Paul just mentioned, the technology (Chemical composition differences) of a rechargeable Lithium cell is inherently much lower capacity than the primary lithium cells, about 40-50%. If you consider a disposable primary cell is rated at about 1200-1300 mAh and rechargeable are coming in at about 600-700 right now.

Other considerations are that the primary battery starts at 3.0 but sags to about 2.8 (depends on the manufacturer and quality) while this rechargeable cell of mine starts strong at about 3.2 and normalizes at 3.0 with a fairly flat discharge curve as seen in the plot a few posts back. The real question is: Will the rechargeable cell have enough capacity to use at all and if so, will the reduced run time be an acceptable trade off for being rechargeable / re-useable and can your device handle the additional voltage.
Since I joined this thread, several CPF members have bought these kits to test in their lights. I will continue to share the non-flashlight related testing results that I can produce and when the CPF folks report back I will share with all the results specific to their lights. There are many different light applications with difference power requirements so the first CPF reply may not determine whether these cells work in all lights but it will be a good starting point that I will share with everyone. 


-Markcm


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## CTR (Oct 1, 2005)

thanks for your reply mark, its useful to know that there is another viable option for rechargeable CR123s, I will wait for the outcome of the tests and go from there. I hope the results will be good as it will influence my decision to get a T3.


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## Christoph (Oct 1, 2005)

I just placed an order for 2 cells to check out


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## Sean (Oct 1, 2005)

Keep us updated.  I'd like to see how these perform in a 2 cell incadescent, and if they fit in an L2 (it looks like it might be close).


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## taiji (Oct 1, 2005)

re: Markcm's 3.0 v rcr123's

My faulty charger was immediately replace by Mark. The cells off the charger registered 3.76 v. The cells are now in running my XO3 at full regulation. I turned it on at 17:15 pst. I wish I had a light meter. 


update: lights out for the XO3 at 18:12 - no moon mode. these cells work great. However, one of the batteries measured 3.11v and the other 0.0v. Any ideas why that is? 


updates will follow as edits.


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## Markcm (Oct 1, 2005)

taiji said:


> re: Markcm's 3.0 v rcr123's
> 
> My faulty charger was immediately replace by Mark. The cells off the charger registered 3.76 v. The cells are now in running my XO3 at full regulation. I turned it on at 17:15 pst. I wish I had a light meter.
> 
> ...



The voltage levels you reported are a function of the IC overdischarge protection. The cell at 0.0 is likely the first cell to trip and go open circuit. 


I'm glad to hear these work well, thanks for the feedback!


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## Markcm (Oct 2, 2005)

Christoph said:


> I just placed an order for 2 cells to check out



Chris, I received your message. I will ship these cells to you without a charger although I want to be very clear that these cells will not charge properly in a standard 4.2 volt Lithium charger (I have tested this to confirm the manufacturers statement.) Because of the IC in these cells, I can not guarantee these will charge properly in any charger other than the one which the manufacturer specifically designed to work with this IC cell.

The charger designed for these is 4.4 volt at 360 mA. 

The DSD does seem to charge these okay, but I only stand behind the approved 4.4v charger.

Thanks,

Markcm


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## Phaserburn (Oct 4, 2005)

Prices...?


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## Markcm (Oct 4, 2005)

Phaserburn said:


> Prices...?



I have several different combo's. About $13 for the charger, $4-5 per cell, I have kits with 2 and 4 cells from $20-30 range. Shipping is priority mail in USA and reasonable rates. I can work with people directly for quotes or check current prices online at:

www.e-lectronics.net


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## Markcm (Oct 5, 2005)

The most complete and latest infomation on these cells including a list of reported compatablity is posted on my site e-lectronics.net 

markcm


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## Christoph (Oct 23, 2005)

So far I have used these in a 6p with no issue other then it took two taps to light it and the light did cut off suddenly after an unknown time greater then 30 min the cells were very warm; hot on the neg end where the prot ckt is.They wouldn't charge on my triton so one went on my pila and one on a regulated power supply. The pila led lit red and I also heard the inductor whine cycling on and off. it was still charging at several hundred ma after the led went green. I have measured almost .8-1 a going into the cell and seen the ckt cycle off and on. With the power supply if I kept it clamped to 1a @4.4v it did not cycle on and off and charged in about 45 min. with a slight temp rise at the ckt end. I will do a more detailed (to the limit of my ability) report soon.


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## Markcm (Nov 2, 2005)

*Their back: 3.0v rechargeables (incl. Markcm's new cells)*

:bump: Hi folks, these chargers are back in now.

-Mark


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## Ned-L (Nov 6, 2005)

Did anyone determine if these work in a Surefire L2? Thanks.


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## Markcm (Nov 6, 2005)

Ned-L said:


> Did anyone determine if these work in a Surefire L2? Thanks.



Hi Ned-L, 

The most current list is posted on my site e-lectronics.net 

-Mark


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## TrueBlue (Nov 6, 2005)

I've just tried 6 of the 3.0V batteries in my SF L2 and, sadly, _they do not fit._ One cell was a tight squeeze going in the L2 but I'm afraid if I got the battery in then it wouldn't come out again. The 3.0V batteries fit nicely in my SF L4 and any other light but _*not the L2.*_ 

Don't worry about me returning the batteries; I'm keeping them!


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## Markcm (Nov 6, 2005)

TrueBlue said:


> I've just tried 6 of the 3.0V batteries in my SF L2 and, sadly, _they do not fit._ One cell was a tight squeeze going in the L2 but I'm afraid if I got the battery in then it wouldn't come out again. The 3.0V batteries fit nicely in my SF L4 and any other light but _*not the L2.*_
> 
> Don't worry about me returning the batteries; I'm keeping them!



Thanks TrueBlue, 

I'm keeping a list on the ad page of compatible lights. 

These cells are the standard 16mm can but have conductive band that runs along the battery beneath the shrink wrap PVC which ends up bringing the total diameter to about 16.8mm; this was the max size I measure out of a random sampling.

For some reason the manufacturer is not willing to pay the bill for new tooling to make these 1mm smaller, hint, hint....$$$$. Until they do, we'll just have to go from the list of lights that fit. As a rule of thumb if you don't have a set of calipers, if your primary (disposable) CR123 batteries are a tight squeeze, these will not fit.

-Markcm


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## TrueBlue (Nov 6, 2005)

You are all welcome.

While the diameter of the rechargeable batteries are the same as the primary batteries it is the protective strip on the side of the protected cell that causes the problem of getting the batteries into the light. So to get the rechargeable battery in the light the rechargeable battery would have to be physically smaller. Currently, if the Li-Ion cell gets smaller then you lose mA capacity. And if the cells were a smaller diameter then there would be more rattle from the battery when you use the light. Unless there is some high-tech way to get more capacity in a slightly smaller cell the strip on the side would have to stay. I suppose circuits on a disk on top of the battery would work but I can see the circuits getting crushed really quick when a light is capped.

For me the 3.0V rechargeable cells work in everything _except the SF L2._ I’m keeping the rechargeable batteries because they work!


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## chimo (Nov 6, 2005)

*Re: 3.0 IC protected from e-lectronics.net*



Markcm said:


> I did check the current but did not plot it; should be pretty high assuming.... ~3.0 volts accross ~1.5 ohms is in the ball park of 2A, the cells did not get hot nor did the IC shut off.
> 
> -Mark



Mark, I have some questions on the graph. 

If the load is 1.5 ohms and the voltage is around 3 volts then there would be about a 2 Amp current flowing. 

The graph indicates around 1 hour of run-time. That would indicate a capacity of around 2000 mAh for these batteries! :thinking: If that's the case - I want some! Alternately, something may be amiss with the measurements.

Since we know these cells are less than 1000mAh capacity, I would speculate that much less than 2A of current is flowing. Can you check your measurements? Thanks,  

Paul


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## Markcm (Nov 6, 2005)

*Re: 3.0 IC protected from e-lectronics.net*



chimo said:


> Mark, I have some questions on the graph.
> 
> If the load is 1.5 ohms and the voltage is around 3 volts then there would be about a 2 Amp current flowing.
> 
> ...



Hi Paul,

This graph was initially for me to compare 4 different CR123 batteries, the load (an automotive light bulb) was measured statically by my meter at 1.5 ohm, I have since realized the resistance changes when the bulb is hot.

So we'll have to disregard the current based on my use of an automotive bulb.

I have run these cells on my Maha777plus analyzer and got right around 680mAh capacity.

These certainly are not 2000mAh and I hope I didn't' give that impression, the graph was intended to profile the discharge characteristics as an A to B comparison. I have now changed the graph so that it does not say 1.5 ohm.

-Markcm


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## chimo (Nov 6, 2005)

Mark, that makes sense now. The bulb's resistance will increase when it warms up. The graphs are good for comparitive purposes. Thanks for the update,

Paul


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## MrMom (Nov 7, 2005)

Mark,

I had my shopping cart all loaded with:
6-17650's
6-17500's
2-NiMh 9V

And I went on to try to order the 3V cr123a reduced charger mentioned in this thread and received the following Msg.

Warning: mysql_connect(): Too many connections in /home/e-lectro/public_html/catalog/includes/functions/database.php on line 19
Unable to connect to database server!

I received the same Msg. when I tried yesterday.

Perhaps we could do this over the phone via PM telephone number exchange.


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## Markcm (Nov 7, 2005)

MrMom said:


> Mark,
> 
> I had my shopping cart all loaded with:
> 6-17650's
> ...



This "SQL" is a web server error, I have contacted them and it will be resolved promptly.

I have sent you a PM with my contact information.

-Mark


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## jar3ds (Nov 9, 2005)

the poor L2... will it ever have a good rechargeble option? =)


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## BrianChan (Nov 12, 2005)

Markcm,

Do your 3v cells fit the A2?


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## balazer (Nov 12, 2005)

If I remember correctly, the DSD lithium ion charger has an open circuit voltage of 5 V. I wonder if that would work with these cells.


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## Markcm (Nov 12, 2005)

Hi folks,

The list of compatibility is current on my website.

For the DSD charger, it seems to charge these completely. These are designed to charge at 4.4v 360mA, I have tested them on a standard 4.2v charger and they do not receive a full charge. Obviously people like to experiment and a charge source slightly over 4.4 would probably work fine because these have the IC.

I can't guarantee anything other than the 4.4v 360mA from a liability standpoint.

-Mark


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## TrueBlue (Nov 12, 2005)

The problem with the 3.0V batteries fitting the L2 is the protective strip makes the battery too fat to fit in the light. Oh, you'll get the batteries in, once, but the batteries will never come out again.

If the batteries were slightly smaller or a channel was made in the battery outside case so the protective strip would be flush mounted then there would be no problem with the fit. I doubt the battery manufacturer would go to the trouble of cutting a groove for the protective strip.


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## Markcm (Nov 12, 2005)

TrueBlue said:


> The problem with the 3.0V batteries fitting the L2 is the protective strip makes the battery too fat to fit in the light. Oh, you'll get the batteries in, once, but the batteries will never come out again.
> 
> If the batteries were slightly smaller or a channel was made in the battery outside case so the protective strip would be flush mounted then there would be no problem with the fit. I doubt the battery manufacturer would go to the trouble of cutting a groove for the protective strip.



Good Picture, thanks for the detail, this very clearly shows how these fit differently in various torch models.

In addition to TrueBlue's comments,

I would add that you shouldn't ever force a protected cell with this type of band into any application because you don't want to cause a short circuit by scraping or pinching the band.

I have mentioned this tolerance issue to the manufacturer although these do fit in most all applications so I agree that they likely will not change process for the few applications that the band interferes with.

-Mark


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## Trashman (Nov 12, 2005)

TrueBlue, I see Mark's batteries fit well in the L4. Have you check the run time on them in it? Also, have you noticed if the light (L4) stays cooler using the two rcr123's than if using a Pila 168s? (I think it should)

Mark, wow, your prices on the protected 17500's, 17670's and 18650's is fantastic! I could have saved a little dough buying from you. Why, on the 17500 and 17670, does it say w/IC, and on the 18650 it says w/PCB? Same thing, right? Also, will the charger for the 3v rechargeables charge only 1 cell at a time? (I'm considering these for a 3-cell 5w LED light....2 then 1)


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## TrueBlue (Nov 12, 2005)

I haven't had a chance to check the run time of the light. I think I would have to do the battery run time it three times; one to try primary batteries, one for the RCR 3.0V and finally one using a Pila 168s/17650 battery. For the amount of use I get out of the batteries I have no complaints. I haven't noticed any problems and I can use my lights just as well as any other rechargeable battery. I haven't noticed any unusual temperature difference with either type of battery.

I've played with the 3.0V batteries for about a month now and I'm very pleased with their performance. My report gives the batteries a :rock: . I need to buy more of these 3.0V batteries later. I can last a while so I'll give others a chance to try the batteries. I bought the charger that was recommended. Since the charger looks so close to the other 3.6V charger i wish there was a label on the 3.0 charger that specifies '3.0V batteries only.' But I don't mix up the chargers because the 3.6V charger is on the east side of the house and the the 3.0V is on the other end. No problems with the charger either.

Has anyone else tried the 3.0V batteries/charger?


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## Trashman (Nov 12, 2005)

Will the 4.4v charger charge 1 bay? (or do you have to charge 2 batteries?)


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## Markcm (Nov 12, 2005)

Trashman said:


> Will the 4.4v charger charge 1 bay? (or do you have to charge 2 batteries?)



Yes, inside the two bays are in parallel. This means the one cell will be charged at 360mA or two cells at 180mA each. Cells with unmatched voltage are okay too, the IC turns one off when it reaches full charge allowing the second to finish charging as well.


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## Markcm (Nov 13, 2005)

Trashman said:


> Mark, wow, your prices on the protected 17500's, 17670's and 18650's is fantastic! I could have saved a little dough buying from you. Why, on the 17500 and 17670, does it say w/IC, and on the 18650 it says w/PCB? Same thing, right? Also, will the charger for the 3v rechargeables charge only 1 cell at a time? (I'm considering these for a 3-cell 5w LED light....2 then 1)



Yes- IC, PCB, PCM, all mean the same thing, "integrated circuit" "power control Module" "printed circuit board"

And yes, you can safely charge 1 or 2 cells at a time. The charge rate is 360mA regardless of 1 or 2 cells so one battery will charge in half the time of two batteries.

As you mentioned, prices are low and now so is my stock. I have another order in but there may be a little gap once these are gone until new stock arrives.

-Markcm


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## Trashman (Nov 13, 2005)

You profile says "Pacific North West", which, to me, means Washinton or Oregon. Is that where the batteries will ship from?


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## Markcm (Nov 13, 2005)

Trashman said:


> You profile says "Pacific North West", which, to me, means Washinton or Oregon. Is that where the batteries will ship from?



Yes,

I am about 20 miles south of the Canadian border (80 north of Seattle). In USA I ship by priority mail with delivery confirmation, 2-3 buisness day delivery time.

- Markcm


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## Vbeez (Nov 13, 2005)

Markcm : what is battery working voltage (the ic open/close its circuitry) ? Are they good for over 1C current withdraw (want to use for PM6) ? Can I buy cells only ? Do you have 220v adapter ? 
Thanks


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## Will_ (Nov 14, 2005)

Christoph said:


> So far I have used these in a 6p with no issue other then it took two taps to light it and the light did cut off suddenly after an unknown time greater then 30 min the cells were very warm; hot on the neg end where the prot ckt is.They wouldn't charge on my triton so one went on my pila and one on a regulated power supply. The pila led lit red and I also heard the inductor whine cycling on and off. it was still charging at several hundred ma after the led went green. I have measured almost .8-1 a going into the cell and seen the ckt cycle off and on. With the power supply if I kept it clamped to 1a @4.4v it did not cycle on and off and charged in about 45 min. with a slight temp rise at the ckt end. I will do a more detailed (to the limit of my ability) report soon.


 
Has anyone tried these in a G2? If they work in the 6P, I assume that if they fit the G2 they should work with the P60 lamp. Does the P60 have the same output with these as it does with primary cells?

Will


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## Markcm (Nov 15, 2005)

*Compatibility of e-lectronics.net : 3.0v IC rechargeables (incl. Markcm's new cells)*

Here is a list (as of Dec. 16, 2005) of reported compatibility of 3.0 IC (max regulated output of 3.2) regulated CR123 cells from http://www.e-lectronics.net/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=3.0&x=0&y=0 as reported by CPF users, for the most current list please check with my website.

Reported non compatible:

SureFire L2- Diameter of cell slightly too wide
SureFire E2e with MN03 bulb, MN02 has been reported as compatible
Reported "semi" compatible

Streamlight Scorpion -required multi switch tap to ignite
SureFire G2 with multi click and then twist of cap

Reported compatible:

Arc LSHF-P
Inova T1, T2, X03, X5 and T3 w/3.2 watt LED
Night Ops Gladius
Nuwai TM-301X-5
Peak Mckinley
Pelican M6 3 Watt
SureFire C3
Surefire KL3 (LED)
SureFire 6P (with multi clicks)
SureFire L1, L4
SureFire x200 
SureFire E series with MN02 bulb
Vital Gear F2

Thank you to those who have provided this information! I will update when more data is available. If you have data on lights not listed here please send it to me and I will update the list.

-Mark


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## Komodo693 (Nov 16, 2005)

mark,

do you know if these will work with an inova t2?
any feedback - thinking of ordering.

thanks in advance


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## photon555 (Nov 16, 2005)

Has anyone tried these in the VIP? Any info, runtime, brightness, does hi work for a while without blinking.


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## Vbeez (Nov 17, 2005)

Anyone tried with PM6 & ALX 352 ?


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## Phaserburn (Nov 17, 2005)

Could someone tell me what the definitive specs are on these cells? I read the thread but am confused and unsure. Capacity = ? Max discharge current = ? Voltage cutoff = ? Initial voltage off the charger (under load) = ? Am I missing something?


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## Markcm (Nov 17, 2005)

Phaserburn said:


> Could someone tell me what the definitive specs are on these cells? I read the thread but am confused and unsure. Capacity = ? Max discharge current = ? Voltage cutoff = ? Initial voltage off the charger (under load) = ? Am I missing something?


Hi Phaseburn,

I have found slight variation in the PCB in each new shipment but here are the basics:

-nominal 600mAh and no less than 550mAh (I have tested many sample with consistent results)

-Max discharge current of: 3C (I suspect it is close to 2 or 2.5)

-Charge retention: >85% after 28 days

-No-load voltage: 3.8 volts (to measure actual voltage, use a 1k ohm resister across the battery terminals while measuring with your DVM, this small load will activate the PCB)

-Peak voltage when PCB is active: 3.4v

-cut off voltage spec: 2.4v (this is physical battery voltage cut off, not including the drop across the IC, using a volt meter across the battery and IC will show less than 2.0 volts)


-Markcm


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## Trashman (Nov 17, 2005)

Mark, the protected 17650's that you're selling, are they about the same thing as 17670's (what I'm used to seeing)? I know the numbers have to do with dimensions, but I've somehow not been able to decode them.


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## Markcm (Nov 17, 2005)

Trashman said:


> Mark, the protected 17650's that you're selling, are they about the same thing as 17670's (what I'm used to seeing)? I know the numbers have to do with dimensions, but I've somehow not been able to decode them.



Yes, my Li-ion with PCB such as my 17650 are actually 67mm long, I try to state actual dimensions in each ad.

here's how the model number works:

First set of numbers indicate diameter and the the second set equal length in millimeters.

17650= 17mm diameter x 65mm length


As Paul points out, these are "specifications"; cells will also have a tolerance meaning that when manufactured they will be with-in a certain amount of variance from these specified dimensions. I have also found that IC protected cells can be called out for the cell used and the protective band is not included in the diameter.

I hope this helps clarify.


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## Trashman (Nov 26, 2005)

Yes, that makes it very simple, thanks!

I always use magnets for spacers (neodymium). I've found that even the 17670s are shorter than the Pila cells.

Mark, I thought I remembered seeing protected 17500s on your website, are they all gone? (I don't see them on there any more)


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Nov 26, 2005)

Markcm said:


> first set of numbers indicate diameter
> 
> 17650= 17mm diameter


It's a bit less certain than that. In a 17650 cell, the diameter can be anywhere from 17.0mm to 17.9mm. In my experience, AW's cells run on the fat side, which is probably how they achieve their best-of-class capacity. AW's 18500 cells won't fit in Microfire's flashlights even though Microfire makes these lights to use its 150A (18500) and 168A (18670) cells. 



Markcm said:


> ...the second set equal length in diameter.


Of course, you meant "length in millimeters."


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## flashlight (Nov 28, 2005)

Markcm, can you accept PayPal for International orders?


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## Markcm (Nov 28, 2005)

flashlight said:


> Markcm, can you accept PayPal for International orders?


Hello,

Yes I do, I am very flexible. You can send requests directly to me by email, I will then send an invoice with shipping. The easiest method is to checkout from my store with your items and select "request for quote" n the checkout process. Provide any details such as if you want insurance or just regular Air Mail (4-7 estimated delivery) and then I will send you a PayPal invoice which can be paid by credit card - No PayPal account required on your part.

Thanks,
Mark
[email protected]


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## Dukester (Dec 4, 2005)

Hello Mark - My cells showed up in todays mail, they are charging as we speak and they do fit my Streamlight TL-3 & SureFire C3... Thanks again for your service.... 

Dave


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## bullinchinashop (Dec 5, 2005)

*New R123A's with lower voltage*

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1641
Anyone have any experience with these? How do you think they'ed do in all the lights we previously couldn't use rechargables in ? I'm mainly looking at Nuwai
http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=981
or
http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=734
or Likki 
http://store.advancedmart.com/lili5waluled.html


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## diggdug13 (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: New R123A's with lower voltage*

That's a nice price for them, I just bought some 3.0v 123 rechargables from JSBurly CPF member and all round nice guy(shameless plug for him). I would buy the batteries from him because he will stand behind his items and it supports CPF.

http://www.jsburlys.com

he sells 3.0v batteries and chargers. from what I hear they work great in the lights that can not handle the 3.7v. I just bought some from him for my Superbird PM6 mod by MJ and I can't wait to see the difference from CR123 (3v) and RCR123 (3v).

Doug


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## bullinchinashop (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: New R123A's with lower voltage*

And you can enjoy your light a lot more when you use rechargables. CR123's are expensive as *!*[email protected]&@@#^#%#^}#[email protected]#%@&! even in Walmart so unless you want to get a crap load online you can't just play with the light and show it off as much. With rechargables you can keep a set in the charger so when the ones in the light die you can just swap em. You don't have to worry about forgetting how many batteries you have and running out or running through your supply faster than you anticipated.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: New R123A's with lower voltage*

See this thread.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: New R123A's with lower voltage*

Since Max discharge is 3C, does that mean three of these would FRY a 5W emmiter?

I would desperately like a rechargable choice for an SNII!!!


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## Ikonomi (Dec 6, 2005)

*Re: New R123A's with lower voltage*

Has anyone tried Markcm's cells in an Inova X5? The barrel seems much too tight, but I don't have the cells yet so I don't know.

And Markcm, you've been doing an awesome job answering questions in this thread. Someone is giving me the 4 cell and charger set for Christmas. I'm very excited.


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## Vbeez (Dec 6, 2005)

Anyone tried these batts on Nuwai ALX 352 & Gentos (Nuwai) Superfire 501 ?


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## johns (Dec 6, 2005)

One more anybody tried Marcm's batteries - in the Night Ops Gladius? 

Sounds like the voltage would be ok - but will they fit?


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## Markcm (Dec 6, 2005)

johns said:


> One more anybody tried Marcm's batteries - in the Night Ops Gladius?
> 
> Sounds like the voltage would be ok - but will they fit?



Hello,

A CPF member just reported back that these are working in his Gladius. I have updated the list in this thread of all the reports I have recieved.

thanks to all of you!

-Mark


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## AFAustin (Dec 6, 2005)

Hi, Mark.

Glad your cells have gotten such a good response.

Has anyone tried these cells with an A2 yet?

Thanks, 

Andrew


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## johns (Dec 7, 2005)

Thank you Mark!

Just placed an order for the charger and 4 batteries - I was tempted to try my DSD charger first, but wanted to play it safe. 
My problem now is that with all the chargers I'll have, my wife may begin to suspect that I have more than one flashlight :naughty:


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## Frenchman (Dec 9, 2005)

These look excellent! I'm going to order some now so I can hopefully get them before I receive my T1 for christmas. At that point, I'll make sure to confirm they do work for you.


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## dagger10k (Dec 10, 2005)

I just got mine today. The ones I charged were 4 volts fresh off the charger, a little above the advertised voltage. I've tried them in 

Peak Mckinley Series
Surefire G2
Inova X5
Nuwai TM-301X-5
Inova XO3

They fit and seem to work in all of them, though the Surefire requires a few pushes to get going. I am running them in the X5 now, and I'll see how they do.


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## Ikonomi (Dec 10, 2005)

Glad to hear they work in the X5. :wave:


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## winny (Dec 10, 2005)

Although I don't use Markcm's cells, I would like to add to this discussion that Batteryspace.com's "Powerizer" 3 volt RCR123 cells do NOT work with SureFire G2 or anything similar that runs with P60 LA.

I thought that the regulation would kick in in a matter of milliseconds as it output 4.2 volt while unloaded, but 3 while loaded. In the battle of the P60's over voltage durability vs. RCR123's regulation kick-in time, my P60 lost and died.

They work very nicely in my U-binned Groovy! though, providing 30 minutes of full brightness and about 5 minutes of usable brightness after that.

My Nuwai Q3 was happy about them too.


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## hburner (Dec 10, 2005)

i am wanting to try these in my c3, anybody tried this yet? i am refering to marks cells.


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## Dukester (Dec 10, 2005)

hburner said:


> i am wanting to try these in my c3, anybody tried this yet? i am refering to marks cells.



Yes Ron - I recently ordered bare 17500's from Mark that I use in my TL-3 & SF C3 and they work out great. The bare 17500's do come with tabs but the tabs are easily removed...

Dave


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## hburner (Dec 10, 2005)

Are the 17500s the ones he advertises as coming with charger and 4 batteries? Is it safe to go right from charger to C3 or M6 or will I have to let the voltage drop some before placing them in the SFs?


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## Markcm (Dec 10, 2005)

hburner said:


> Are the 17500s the ones he advertises as coming with charger and 4 batteries? Is it safe to go right from charger to C3 or M6 or will I have to let the voltage drop some before placing them in the SFs?



No, 17500's are longer than the 3 volt IC reduced CR123 cells of discussion in this thread (50mm in appose to 34mm of a CR123). 

A 17650 is the same length as 2pcs CR123 and many times will work in place of them if you have the room for the extra 1mm diameter. The voltage will be less with the 17650 and therefore the output will be less as lower. I use a 17650 in my chinese "police" light with a 4.5v lamp and it works well for a cheap spare light.

-Markcm


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## cy (Dec 10, 2005)

interesting development..

has anyone measured the actual mah rating yet?


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## hburner (Dec 10, 2005)

Dukester, if you don't me asking how are you using the 17500s in the C3 with the length difference? Does anyone know if Marks 123a-4kit will and how well it would work in the SF C3 and the M6? Any voltage problems forseen with either light? Thanks, hburner.


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## Dukester (Dec 11, 2005)

hburner said:


> Dukester, if you don't me asking how are you using the 17500s in the C3 with the length difference? Does anyone know if Marks 123a-4kit will and how well it would work in the SF C3 and the M6? Any voltage problems forseen with either light? Thanks, hburner.




Trust me, two 17500's fit the C3 fine, I know because I own both the C3 and 8 17500's cells. You see, two 17500's are the same size as three 123's.

Dave


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## hburner (Dec 11, 2005)

Yea, I'm kinda slow, after thinking about it and looking at Marks measurements I figured it out. But what about the voltage? Is'nt it 7.4 volts and why does'nt it underdrive the LAs?


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## Markcm (Dec 11, 2005)

hburner said:


> Yea, I'm kinda slow, after thinking about it and looking at Marks measurements I figured it out. But what about the voltage? Is'nt it 7.4 volts and why does'nt it underdrive the LAs?



Considering the light was designed for disposable CR123's which are 3.0 off the shelf and drop to ~2.8 when loaded, multiplied by 3 this is about 8.5 volts when the cells are fresh. This level drops during run time, if you look at the discharge curve (there are some plotted in other threads on CPf)

Now, the 17500's are 4.2 when hot off the charger X2 = 8.4 volts to your bulb. After a bit of run time the 17500 will stabilize at 3.7 volts per cell.

Although not identical, they are in the same ball park. Lamps are funny animals as well, some respond to the internal resistance of a battery type rather than the voltage by increasing or decreasing current through the lamp due to the batteries ability to drive it regardless of voltage. For example, a Li-ion 18650 is peak 4.2v where as a pair of CR123 is peak 6v yet the single li-ion 18650 will push an LED harder than the pair of CR123's.


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## johns (Dec 11, 2005)

Got my batteries and charger - Thanks Mark !!
Just got them yesterday - I charged up 2 batteries - I was a little nervous to stick them in my new Gladius so I tried them in my Surfire C2 (p90 bulb) - didn't light it up so I went ahead and tried them in the Gladius. They worked fine - only ran them for about 5-7 minutes, but no low power blinking. They are a little tight - had to shake them back out. Looks like a great solution to guilt free use of my Gladius 
Edited to add that I am using the 9v lamp in my C2 - I didn't try marks batteries in it with the 6 v lamp I'll give them a try with the p 60 lamp sometime - i'm also waiting on a p61 lamp that I ordered - could be good with that too.


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## dagger10k (Dec 12, 2005)

The batteries I charged were topping off at about 4.15 volts off the charger, so I was slightly worried for a while. It wasn't convienient to test the voltage under load, but I did test the current. 

In my Inova XO3, the current was around .6 amps (from memory) with fresh 123As and a a bit lower, maybe .55 with the rechargables. 

I also tried them in my Nuwai, and it was .77 with fresh 123As and .81 with the rechargables. 

Lastly, I tried them with my Inova X5, and the current was more substantially higher with the rechargables, may .33 to .25 or something.

In any case, these currents don't seem particularly alarming. Should I be worried? The lights I put them in don't seem and brighter to my eyes, and neither to they get hot any faster. 

I'm pretty sure that they must drop to a better voltage under load like promised.


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## Navck (Dec 12, 2005)

X5? Yes!


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## hburner (Dec 12, 2005)

Hi everyone, I ordered the 4 3vs and charger from Mark yesterday! I Am very curious to see how they fair in my C3. I will post and let everyone know. Thanks to all who have answered my questions!!! Will post back as soon as I know something.


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## EricMack (Dec 12, 2005)

Just received the charger and cells (3.0V) this morning. I will also confirm they are powering my X5 as I type this. I don't have any fancy testing equipment, so I used my watch to time their runtime in the Inova.
They lasted 1 Hr 38 minutes.

Thanks, Mark.


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## Dukester (Dec 12, 2005)

EricMack said:


> Just received the charger and cells (3.0V) this morning. I will also confirm they are powering my X5 as I type this. I don't have any fancy testing equipment, so I used my watch to time their runtime in the Inova.
> They lasted 1 Hr 38 minutes.
> 
> Thanks, Mark.


 
The runtime will increase a bit after your new cells have been cycled a few times...

Dave


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## dagger10k (Dec 12, 2005)

EricMack said:


> They lasted 1 Hr 38 minutes.



Is that until the light went off, or to 50%, or what?


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## EricMack (Dec 13, 2005)

Until the light went off.


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## hburner (Dec 16, 2005)

Boy this "holiday season shipping time sucks. I ordered Sunday and here it is Friday and still no batteries or charger!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## hburner (Dec 16, 2005)

Does anyone know what the point of "I better not try this "voltage out of the charger might be? If the batterires are registering 3.2 out of the charger I see no problem with putting them in the C3 if they fit. But what about 3.3 or 3.4 or higher. I just blew a brand new MN20 in my M6 and am going to have to send it back to SF for Reflector replacement and I sure do no want to do the same with my C3.


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## taiji (Dec 16, 2005)

the 3.0v (with the IC) nominal rcr123's voltage off the charger is 3.7 (mine were 3.76v) but as advertised drops to < 3.2 v under load. I've been using these cells in my voltage sensitive lights without problems. Just be sure that you got the right cells.


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## hburner (Dec 16, 2005)

I got the ones from Marks site, the 3.2 IC protected not to go over 3.2 vs ones. So if I test them at 3.6vs off the charger it is still safe to try them in my C3 if they fit?

Wonder if they will work in my M6??????


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## taiji (Dec 16, 2005)

if the cells that you had ordered are the ones as here:
http://e-lectronics.net/catalog/cr1....html?osCsid=62f84fdc4004b841cc52952558fa1f8a

please read the notation on compatibility in the said page. good luck


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## hburner (Dec 16, 2005)

Yep, thats them. I ordered 2 of those and this.http://e-lectronics.net/catalog/volt-600mah-cr123a-batteries-with-charger-p-169.html


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## taiji (Dec 16, 2005)

take the plunge.. do it to it


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## Tajji (Dec 16, 2005)

I’ve got the RCR123 batteries and charger from Mark yesterday. 

Thanks Mark. 

I charged up 4 cells and the voltages off the charger are as followed:

Cell #1 - 3.99 volt Cell #2 - 3.99 volt

Cell #3 - 3.83 volt Cell #4 - 3.80 volt



I put them in my PM6 3W and it had no problem with the batteries. The batteries did not affect the form, fit or function of light. I ran the test with two sets of battery until the light dropped out of regulation and quit.



1st run - The runtime was 36 minutes with fan cooling (since I didn't have a fan at work, I put it behind the cooling fan of my PC). The voltages from the depleted cells are 0 (tripped) and 3.55. Base on flashlightreviews.com's runtime result, output maintaining at 100% is approximately 90 minutes. With the RCR123 in the PM6 3W, the runtime is about 40% of non-rechargeable CR123.



2nd run - The runtime was 41 minutes with water cooling. The voltages from the depleted cells are 0 (tripped) and 3.41. The runtime is about 45% of non-rechargeable CR123.



The capacity of the rechargeable cells is approximately 40 to 45% of non-rechargeable which is inline with the actual capacity – 600mah. For the future, I’ll run the PM6 3W with an A19/17500 combo to gain more runtime and the RCR123 is more suitable for lights with higher efficiency. My next test will be the T3 and eventually I’ll get to the C3. 

Simon


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## dagger10k (Dec 16, 2005)

Thanks for doing the runtime tests! I'd like to know how these work out.


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 17, 2005)

Tajji, did you check the current draw during the PM6 test?

Bill


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## Tajji (Dec 17, 2005)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Tajji, did you check the current draw during the PM6 test?
> 
> Bill


 
Hi Bill

No I didn't check the current of the PM6.

Here's the result of my T3 run - The voltages off the charger were 3.89 and 3.83. The batteries were snug and they required some shaking to extract from the body. I ran the test until the light dropped out of regulation and quit. The runtime was 55 minutes and the voltages of the depleted cells were 0 (tripped) and 3.27.


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## hburner (Dec 17, 2005)

OK Tajji, your killin me here. Please try them in the C3 and post results, Please!! Its Saturday and the mail just ran and no batts or charger. 6 days in and nothing. Can you tell I am a impatient man?


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## Tajji (Dec 17, 2005)

hburner said:


> OK Tajji, your killin me here. Please try them in the C3 and post results, Please!! Its Saturday and the mail just ran and no batts or charger. 6 days in and nothing. Can you tell I am a impatient man?


 
Hi hburner,

I have couple more leds before I get to the incands. Next couple runs will be the SL TL-2 led, TL-3 led and the Argo HP. But I have a date at the range today.


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## hburner (Dec 17, 2005)

OK, I'll just be quiet and wait patiently. Thank you, if I'm lucky I will get to try mine out Monday. If they don't fit in the or light up or instaflash the C3, I think I'll order the 17500s.


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## Trashman (Dec 17, 2005)

Markcm said:


> Yes,
> 
> I am about 20 miles south of the Canadian border (80 north of Seattle). In USA I ship by priority mail with delivery confirmation, 2-3 buisness day delivery time.
> 
> - Markcm




Mark, so I'm just about to check out on your website, but I don't see Priority mail as a shipping option. The cheapest option I see is UPS ground, and that's $7.95, which is a little expensive to ship 2 batteries. How do I get the priority mail w/confirmation shipping? How much is it? What's that "Table Rate" shipping, With "Best Way" for $3.00? Hmm....I guess I'm going to go with that one and find out later!


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## Markcm (Dec 19, 2005)

Trashman said:


> Mark, so I'm just about to check out on your website, but I don't see Priority mail as a shipping option. The cheapest option I see is UPS ground, and that's $7.95, which is a little expensive to ship 2 batteries. How do I get the priority mail w/confirmation shipping? How much is it? What's that "Table Rate" shipping, With "Best Way" for $3.00? Hmm....I guess I'm going to go with that one and find out later!



Hi,

Table rate is USPS mail. All Li-ion product goes by priority mail with delivery confirmation and anything else over about 13 ounces goes by Priority mail with delivery confirmation. Delivery confirmation only tells when the item has been delivered and does not provide real time tracking. 

I do have a shipping page on my site with more details, check the lower left column for a link to "shipping and returns"

-Markcm


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## Trashman (Dec 19, 2005)

Well, then I think I owe you a little, then. Two batteries by Priority Mail should cost $3.85, and delivery confirmation should be another $.45. I don't know if or how much you charge for handling. First Class would be ok, for me, but perhaps you have other reasons for using Priority, which is also fine (the faster, the better!). Anyway, I haven't received an email from you regarding any owed monies yet, so either that'll be tomorrow, or everything's fine as it is now. 

PM incoming...


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## hburner (Dec 19, 2005)

The3 day select is an operable choice isn't is Mark? Next time I think I mght use that if it is. Still nothing. Did you get in the 17500s? and chargers? Thanks.


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## Trashman (Dec 19, 2005)

I think he got some protected 17500's in. I ordered two on Friday night, and at the time, it said that there were 10 available. (probably 8, after me)


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## hburner (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks Trashman, If I new he had them and the charger in stock I would place an order!!!!


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## hburner (Dec 22, 2005)

Well I don't guess I'll be getting 3vs and charger. The USPS said that they lost my order. Then they said that it was scanned in at the unit but was misplaced. Now they are saying that it was delivered to the wrong address and can not be accounted for??? Anyway it is in no way Marks fault!!! Or mine. No one but the USPS, but hey we all make mistakes, don"t we??!! I'm just out $46.00. I think I'll try the 17500s and have it deliverd by UPS!!!!!! Mark has been great throught my whole ordeal, Thanks Mark. hburner.


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## Bryan (Dec 22, 2005)

Will these work with the P61 bulb, or just the P60 (SF 6P/ G2)?


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## Trashman (Dec 22, 2005)

hburner said:


> Thanks Trashman, If I new he had them and the charger in stock I would place an order!!!!



It turns out I was wrong! Mark PMed me, letting me know that "-10" means he's out of stock! He says they should be arriving very soon, though. I assumed he had them because, before, the item wasn't even available viewing, but this time it was there and I was able to order.


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## Bob_G (Dec 22, 2005)

> It turns out I was wrong! Mark PMed me, letting me know that "-10" means he's out of stock! He says they should be arriving very soon, though. I assumed he had them because, before, the item wasn't even available viewing, but this time it was there and I was able to order.


I was going to ask you how you managed to order them. I've been checking daily for 17500s and the chargers. When I add either to the cart, there's those three *** that tell you your order is too large. Since it defaults to "1" you can pretty well figure he's out  

Do you see the ***? I'm using Mozilla, some browsers may present the site differently.


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## Trashman (Dec 23, 2005)

In Mark's PM, he said he usually doesn't allow purchases when out of stock, although he will sometimes turn the function on by request. It turns out that I just happened to be in the shop when it was turned on, and so, it let me order.


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## Markcm (Dec 23, 2005)

Bob_G said:


> I was going to ask you how you managed to order them. I've been checking daily for 17500s and the chargers. When I add either to the cart, there's those three *** that tell you your order is too large. Since it defaults to "1" you can pretty well figure he's out
> 
> Do you see the ***? I'm using Mozilla, some browsers may present the site differently.



Hi folks,

*** will show in any browser, this is the indication that I do not have enough stock in the item and checkout is not allowed until this items quantity is adjusted.

These are now back in stock now.

All back orders/ pre orders are packaged to ship Friday 12-23-05.

Thanks for all your support!

-Markcm


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## Bob_G (Dec 23, 2005)

Hi Mark,

I just ordered a few batteries and 2 chargers. If you were out, and they were pre-ordered, would that be indicated? 

Btw, it was probably my mistake, but at checkout there was an item that I never would have ordered in my cart. Don't know if you've had trouble with that or whatever, just letting you know.


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## Markcm (Dec 24, 2005)

Bob_G said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> I just ordered a few batteries and 2 chargers. If you were out, and they were pre-ordered, would that be indicated?
> 
> Btw, it was probably my mistake, but at checkout there was an item that I never would have ordered in my cart. Don't know if you've had trouble with that or whatever, just letting you know.



Bob,

Your order is received and will ship first thing nest week, in the event of a mishap during order I am more than happy to make corrections for anyone.

Current quantity is listed in the lower right hand portion of each product page, 99% of the time I have my store set not to allow checkout if quantity is less than one. I still have a few 17500ic left and the quantity is automatically reduced each time an order is placed to avoid accidental Back orders.

Happy Holidays,

Markcm


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## Trashman (Dec 26, 2005)

Mark, you wouldn't happen to have any unprotected 14500s, would you?


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## Markcm (Dec 27, 2005)

Trashman said:


> Mark, you wouldn't happen to have any unprotected 14500s, would you?


I have a few unprotected 14500 that are part of a special order which may have been dropped. I will confirm and let you know. I have the 14500 with protection available now.

I also have some other new items such as the DSD charger with springs welded into it to accommodate the different sizes and various cylindrical Li-ions with and without protection.

See all the latest greatest at www.e-lectronics.net

Also, if there is a battery or charger that anyone would like to see me carry, send me a note and I'll see what I can do.

Happy Holidays everyone!


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## hburner (Dec 27, 2005)

Well Well, looky what I got!! The cells and charger did make it to me about 2 weeks late! Thanks USPS! The 3.2 cells will power the P90 in my C3 for about 22 min before going dim and the IC kicks in and it is lights ought. They will not power on the P91 at all.


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## Dukester (Dec 27, 2005)

hburner said:


> Well Well, looky what I got!! The cells and charger did make it to me about 2 weeks late! Thanks USPS! The 3.2 cells will power the P90 in my C3 for about 22 min before going dim and the IC kicks in and it is lights ought. They will not power on the P91 at all.


 
Ron - Should have gone the Unprotected 17500 route as I mentioned before(tsk,tsk). You would have not had the problem you have now with the short runtime. Your runtime would have more than doubled by going via Unprotected 17500's cells... Oh well, live and learn :huh: 

Dave


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## greenLED (Dec 27, 2005)

I thought I had posted to this thread, but apparently I didn't 
Anyway, just to let everybody know that there is also a link to Markcm's store on the CPF Specials thread.


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## TReynolds (Dec 27, 2005)

Just got my 3.0V IC cells from Mark today. Here is what I've found out so far. They fit in my SureFire C3 without any problem. The cells are almost identical in size to SureFires. Two sets were charged up in less than an hour each, cells barely got luke warm. 

Put the cells in the flashlight and was only able to get it to blink on occasion. Took the unit apart and hard wired them thinking that maybe it was a switch issue and same thing. Put my KL3 head on and it worked flawless. Am doing a very unscientific runtime test and will post. Original lamp is a P90.

Does anyone know if this will work with a KL5 in this unit?

Thanks
Tim


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## hburner (Dec 27, 2005)

OK Dukester, I know, I know, The 17500s should be here tomorrow and I am lookin forward to using them with my P91. I tried the 3vs mainly because I could fit them into the SC1 and they were just more stock looking. But the upside to the 17500s being longer runtime and charge the 2 and throw them inot the light rather than have to wait on the 3rd batt to charge.


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## Dukester (Dec 27, 2005)

hburner said:


> OK Dukester, I know, I know, The 17500s should be here tomorrow and I am lookin forward to using them with my P91. I tried the 3vs mainly because I could fit them into the SC1 and they were just more stock looking. But the upside to the 17500s being longer runtime and charge the 2 and throw them inot the light rather than have to wait on the 3rd batt to charge.



Let us know how it works out for you but you will notice a dramatic increase in runtime.  What did you end up getting bare or protected 17500's?

Dave


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Dec 27, 2005)

I was browsing the site and a Li-Ion charger and two 18650 Protected ain't but about $26 bucks! Still, I have too many irons in the fire just now...


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## hburner (Dec 27, 2005)

Dave, I got 4 bare and 2 protected, I hope the protected fire up the P91. If the bare give twice the runtime and fire up the P91 I will be happy! The 3vs from Mark give off pretty darn good lumens their = to or maybe just a little brighter than primarys. I hope the 17500s are just as bright especially with the P91.


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## Dukester (Dec 27, 2005)

Ok Ron, both protected and bare 17500's will fire up both the P90/P91 LA's but the protected cells will require a rapid click perhaps up to 3 or 4 to fire up the P91 LA. 

Have fun...

Dave


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## Trashman (Dec 27, 2005)

Mark, got my protected 17500's today. Thanks.

They are slightly long, making them a very tight fit, but they do fit, so all is fine.


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## TReynolds (Dec 28, 2005)

Update to previous thread:
Well I guess I figured out the multiple click thing to get the protected cells to work. I'm getting 22 minutes on my C3 with p90 lamp as mentioned by another member. Very bright for the entire duration though. 

With the KL3 I got over 2.5 hours run time before I fell asleep last night and about 3 hours to top off a set of two cells.

I'm shooting for a run time of about 40 minutes so I'm really interested to see how two 17500 protected cells run with the p90. I'd even be happy with a p60. Has anyone tried two 17500 protected cells with this lamp? I know it's slightly over voltage but will it work reliably?

I've also read through this entire thread and have yet to come across runtimes for anyone with a C2/G2 (aka p60 lamp) with two of the 3.0 volt cells.

Thanks
Tim


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## picard (Dec 28, 2005)

J.S burly cr123 rechargeables don't seem to last long in my Gladius. The Gladius flashes twice quickly to indicate low battery level. Then my light just shut off completely withing less than 30min. I use the Gladius at maximum level. 

Could the Gladius drain rechargeable faster than regular CR123? Does anyone know?


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## Bryan (Dec 28, 2005)

TReynolds said:


> I've also read through this entire thread and have yet to come across runtimes for anyone with a C2/G2 (aka p60 lamp) with two of the 3.0 volt cells.
> 
> Thanks
> Tim


 
I'd like to know if they work with this setup also (or with a P61). Otherwise I will just go with the P90 and standard protected cells.


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## TReynolds (Dec 30, 2005)

OK I'm not above begging for feedback so if anyone can help PLEASE do so. I'm also lowering the bar a bit on my expectations of Marks cells. I would be happy with about thirty minutes runtime from either a p60 or p90 lamp. I'm kind of stuck on using protected cells.

Here's what I want to try:

(2) 17500 protected cells running either lamp, seems like the voltage is low for the p90 and high for the p60. Has anyone had luck with either? Runtimes for either?

Second option: Use two 3.0v cells and a p60 in the C3, I aready have a dummy spacer made up. In essence a stretch G2/C2/Z2. Anyone have runtimes on this?

All things said, I'm impressed with Mark's 3.0 volt rechargeables, I think they are a viable choice for certain LEDs. Unfortunately the 22 minute runtime in my C3/p90 makes it only good for recreational use around the house use.

Any help would be appreciated!
Thanks
Tim


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## hburner (Dec 31, 2005)

Dukester you are right about the runtime but I found that I would rather use the 3vs with my P90 for more brightness and save the 17500s for the P91!!!!


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Dec 31, 2005)

Not Markcm's cells but:

At Frys these days Ultralast "3V" Rechargable Lithium Cells and Charger are available. A buddy and I each have a set. In the incandescent lights I've tried the pull from them is always more. I wacked a Brinkmann bulb with three when three primary 123s lit up nicely.

In MOST LED lights, the amp pull is less. In an XO3 it is exactly the same with either cells.

In my SNII 3 primaries take 1.70ish amps. With three RCR123 it pulls 2.23... is this too much for a 5W LED???


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## RW650 (Jan 5, 2006)

Hi,i would like to know ,can it be used on ALX-332L(3W)?
The size is it fit on the body?
thanks!


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jan 5, 2006)

Anyone? On the 5W 2.23A question....


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## dagger10k (Jan 6, 2006)

Just for the heck of it, I tried a runtime test on my Nuwai TM301X5 and got exactly 40 minutes before the light went out. It does not seem to have dimmed at all during that time. Not bad.


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## Tajji (Jan 7, 2006)

TReynolds said:


> Here's what I want to try:
> 
> (2) 17500 protected cells running either lamp, seems like the voltage is low for the p90 and high for the p60. Has anyone had luck with either? Runtimes for either?
> 
> ...


 
Hi Tim,

I ran the C3/P90 combo with Mark's 2x17500 protected cell and obtained a runtime of 1hr 2 min. Since I've purchased the protected R123a and 17500 from Mark, I stop running primary 123a.


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## TReynolds (Jan 10, 2006)

Thanks Tajji,
1 hour runtime is amazing. I guess I'll eat the RCR123s and get the 17500s. I assume you have to do the triple tap to get them lit? Thanks again for the reply.
Tim


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## Bullzeyebill (Jan 10, 2006)

I use Markcm's protected 17500's (2) for my P90 LA. Do not have to double tap them.


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## TReynolds (Jan 10, 2006)

Hour runtime, no triple clicky....this is like Xmas all over again. I'm ordering tomorrow. No more primary lithiums for me


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## CroMAGnet (Feb 2, 2006)

I just got the 3.0V 600mAh CR123 batteries from AW and when I took them off the charger the measured 4.01V, much to my surprise. Also to my surprise they didn't power up my 2C Magmod using 3 primary CR123A Batteries.

Anyone have any experience with these?


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## Markcm (Feb 2, 2006)

CroMAGnet said:


> I just got the 3.0V 600mAh CR123 batteries from AW and when I took them off the charger the measured 4.01V, much to my surprise. Also to my surprise they didn't power up my 2C Magmod using 3 primary CR123A Batteries.
> 
> Anyone have any experience with these?



I would suspect the voltage is fine even at 4v, if these are similar in design to my cells, the IC that regulates is not active without current flow and I have seen static readings from 3.7 to 4 volts on my IC reduced cells. Can you tell if these have an internal IC circuit, on mine you can see the negative end of the cell has a circuit and a conductor band running up the cell under the shrink wrap. To test the working voltage of your cell, place a 1k resistor across the battery while you measure it, this will kick in the PCB.

With regards to why these are not working in your light, first off check some standard cells to make sure the bulb didn't pop on you. My best guess is that your application is high current and the short circuit protection of the cell is activating preventing the cells from lighting your torch, this is some times curred with a series of quick switch clicks. On some models a quick series of switch clicks will briefly light the bulb before the IC shuts off the battery, theory being the bulb will warm up just enough to increase resistance, drop the current flow below the IC's threshold and stay on contiuously.

Hope that info is useful

-Markcm
www.e-lectronics.net


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## CroMAGnet (Feb 2, 2006)

Very Useful, thanks Mark. I will have to look at the batteries when I get home.

I tried two CR123 in the high current magmod along with a dummy CR123. I did a series of quick switch clicks and the 1499 bulb would only glow a tiny bit with each click. Then I tried all three CR123 batteries and no dummy cell. I got the same results but the tiny glow with each click was a lot brighter before fading off. 

I'll try them in a bunch of other LEDs late this evening to try and figure it out. I had hoped they would run this Magmod though :shrug: It's goes through three primary CR123 batteries in a half hour or so.


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## captianworkbench (Feb 9, 2006)

I am curious. I have a SF E2e. From what I have gathered here and on the e-lectronics website, these 3.0V regulated 123's will light the MN02 (25lumen) lamp but not the MN03 (60 lumen) lamp which is standard on the light. Why is this? Both lamps are designed for 6V. Does it have to do with bulb resistance or current draw? 

Thanks

CWB


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## jclarksnakes (Feb 11, 2006)

To Mark for charger and some cells.
I tell you it is a sickness!!!!
jc


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## Markcm (Feb 11, 2006)

captianworkbench said:


> I am curious. I have a SF E2e. From what I have gathered here and on the e-lectronics website, these 3.0V regulated 123's will light the MN02 (25lumen) lamp but not the MN03 (60 lumen) lamp which is standard on the light. Why is this? Both lamps are designed for 6V. Does it have to do with bulb resistance or current draw?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> CWB



I can speculate: 

I only have one customer who has reported back regarding the MN03 bulb so the classification of non compatible may be a little loose; I just do my best to report what CPF'rs share with me. It was actually reported to blow the MN03 bulb.

I would guess that a higher light output in the MN03 is related to less resistance than the MN03, if the MN02 were borderline with accepting the voltage from these RCR123 3.0ic cells then the MN03 would pop.

Consider that a primary CR123 is 3.0 before loaded and about 2.8v when loaded, and my regulated cells are around 3.2 volts and hold that for sometime before dropping to a nominal 3.0.

Most low resistance/ high output bulbs will cause the cell the go into over current protection mode rather than blow a bulb and this is the one and only case that has been reported to me of blowing a bulb.

If anyone else has experimented with the MN03 or knows more about the bulb and why it may not be compatible with these cells please comment.

-Mark
www.e-lectronics.net


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## 45/70 (Mar 15, 2006)

I have been following this thread since it started and just read the last several posts. Firstly, if CroMAGnet is only getting about 30 minutes out of primaries in his light, that tells me that it is pulling somewhere around 3 amps. I don't think the 3.0 volt IC batteries will supply that much current. Looking around the forums at the use of these and other 3.0 volt IC batteries, it seems with multiple tapping etc. you might (maybe, sorta) get them to work at 2 amps but, not much more.

As far as the MN02/MN03 questions, it seems to me that this is the same curent draw problem. I think Markcms speculation would appear to be the correct explanation. When you're playing on the edge in these situations, there are three possible outcomes. It works, it won't light (overloading the IC), or, the bulb will pop (over voltage to the bulb).

Just my 2 cents. I have several types of Mark's Li-Ion batteries but, I don't try to run any of them "on the edge" so, haven't had any problems.

Just a plug for Markcm, fast shipment and good email correspondence! :rock:

Dave


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 15, 2006)

AW came out with a single protected 14670 ( 1000mAh ) 3.7V LiIon battery that fits in the L2 for $10, and seems to give the same lumen output (high and low settings both work normally) as two of the 123a's, based on my practical testing. 

I have been using it for a month without any problem. Just add his nipple magnet to the + terminal so it makes contact with the inside contact.


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## Markcm (Mar 16, 2006)

I also offer a 14650 / 14670 protected cell, although the model number is 14650 the actual size is 14670. I think you will find my prices very favorable as well. I don't have any compatibility data on these although I suppose that's a good thing as no one has informed me of incompatibilities.

check them out at www.e-lectronics.net

-Markcm


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 16, 2006)

Markcm said:


> I also offer a 14650 / 14670 protected cell, although the model number is 14650 the actual size is 14670. I think you will find my prices very favorable as well. I don't have any compatibility data on these although I suppose that's a good thing as no one as informed me of incompatibilities.
> 
> check em out at www.e-lectronics.net
> 
> -Markcm


 
That is a nice price on those....but you didn't put down the size measurements of your various batteries which I think is important (especially for fitting inside of the L2) to verify before buying. What do those charge up to?

It looks like these other AW 14670's are 8mm x 37mm & with the + terminal nipple magnet makes it the same length as two of the 123a's (each 9mm x 19mm)


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## Markcm (Mar 26, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> That is a nice price on those....but you didn't put down the size measurements of your various batteries which I think is important (especially for fitting inside of the L2) to verify before buying. What do those charge up to?
> 
> It looks like these other AW 14670's are 8mm x 37mm & with the + terminal nipple magnet makes it the same length as two of the 123a's (each 9mm x 19mm)



Good comment, I am currently working on updating the product pages to your request. I am adding cell size based on actual measurement at largest points taken from a random sampling of cells and also including a link to more complete specification .PDF files

New stock is due the first week of April

-Markcm
www.e-lectronics.net


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