# After the EMP/Solar Flare/Grid Hack



## LetThereBeLight! (Jul 12, 2017)

This post is not about Faraday Cages. Nor is it for discussing/debating the probabilities of an EMP, Flare, or Grid Hack.

Rather, it is to answer this question, "After a prolonged/indefinite power outage (emphasis on prolonged/indefinite), with many who will need illumination of various sorts, what will you share, distribute, give out, and will you be carrying some sort of bag from which to assist or help others?"

Over the past years, I have given out to family members and friends various lights of great utility. Initially, some laughed at my choice of a gift but they later thanked me after describing how the light I gave them came in handy.

Lately, in pondering this question, I have stocked up on the Nitecore Tube and batteries including rechargeable ones for some other lights I own. I could see myself giving out some Tubes here or there. I have one or two ways to recharge rechargeable batteries.

Honestly, I'm at a loss because with finite resources, the need for illumination at night will literally be infinite. My annual purchases of lights and related items are modest, and I'm ok with that, and perhaps one day I will be able to make purchases that are much more than that.

This post does not even begin to address that us humans cannot live on illumination alone-- a subject for other types of websites no doubt, which I see no need here to discuss.

I'm just narrowing the scope of this inquiry to the possibility of a quickly accessible go-to bag just with modest lights to provide family members, perhaps some neighbors, and some friends in the event of an indefinite or prolonged power outage. I do not have lights/batteries located all in one place for obvious reasons (and yes, I EDC several lights and have a few in my car as well). 

So, in the event of an indefinite outage, without getting into geopolitical topics and probabilities of incidents or events, what are your plans ahead of time, if any, to provide illumination?


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## archimedes (Jul 12, 2017)

I'm thinking this thread might be better for "The Cafe" ... but we'll let it run for a bit here, and see how it goes


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## Str8stroke (Jul 12, 2017)

Yup, Cafe bound.....in...3...2........... 

I have a complete solar rig up and running. I actually have several different sized rigs. Several portable and one large semi fixed. They all have 12 volt "car type" batteries to store energy. I can run my battery chargers from the batteries. So basically, I never have to worry about charging batteries. I guess the odds of a EMP wiping out all of my solar rigs is pretty darn low. 

So what to do if a EMP does fry all my gear? I have a pretty healthy supply of batteries and lights that could run probably a year. I also have plenty of Hot Wire lights too! I also have a Salt G-MAG AA battery charger. Just add salt & water and it will charge my AA's. I got that for my camping trips where setting up a solar panel at night to charge batteries doesn't act so well. It works well and is sure to impress the chics.


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## iamlucky13 (Jul 12, 2017)

A modestly sized (~10 W) solar panel, either with USB built in, or wired to a regulator that outputs 5V via a USB port or 12V via a cigarette lighter outlet, would be a convenient way to power a charger.

Even where I am in gloomy Washington, a 10W panel should produce enough energy per day to do a full charge on an 18650 battery on all but overcast days. Even on overcast days, you'd be able to get a partial charge, and manage your energy carefully to last until sunnier days.

So if you're mindful of how much energy your lights consume in various modes, you can get a lot of mileage out of this kind of setup. In past power outages, I've set my Fenix E01 on its tail in the room I'm in to provide enough illumination via ceiling bounce to find my way around. A good 18650 light can provide days of illumination at that level, although more realistically, you'd probably only use it for a few hours per night before going to bed, but use higher modes when you're more active.

I haven't bothered to get such a solar panel yet. I probably will at some point.

I also have a car jump starter pack that can be used to store excess energy if smaller batteries are topped off, in addition to the batteries in the cars themselves - it's not like they'd be used for much if the gasoline ran out.


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## Woods Walker (Jul 13, 2017)

I will just roll with it.

















Also have this. Odds are the Eneloops (the whites in the clear plastic case) would outlast me.





And have 4 Nightstar shake lights (shake light, a dirty word... I know). I think they're powered by a capacitor which can be charged via shaking more times that I would actually have time. They all work just fine after over 10 years of ownership but little actual use. I do crack the Nightstar CS and standard models out occasionally cuz it is a lark. I think the larger standard model was semi practical for actual use though the CS was small enough there is actually one in my INCH bag. I believe loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong running lower modes of modern LED flashlights made the entire shake light thing obsolete. That and awful low quality ones sold on Ebay.


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## scout24 (Jul 13, 2017)

The light I own the most of (don't ask...) are Fenix E01's, combined with Energizer Lithium primaries with 10 year shelf life. Search out some of the runtime and torture threads here. Eneloops with solar would last indefinitely as said above. I've gifted about a dozen E01's over the years, never had one come back broken. The only ones who care about the tint are us flashaholics, everyone else is just happy thd damn thing makes light when needed...


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## Woods Walker (Jul 13, 2017)

+1 on the E01. I have several E01s in my PSKs with Lithium primaries. Bomb proof combo IMHO.

Now for the infamous shake lights. I owned a bunch but the Nightstar were the only ones worth it though also the most expensive.





The large clear one was the last I purchased (still a good number of years ago) and has a newer (at the time) 5mm GS led. The rest have 5mm DS. I could be wrong as no expert on 5mm LEDs. The DS has a better tint but GS brighter and for these brighter really matters as they're dim. The larger ones are much easier to charge via shaking. I have another smaller newer Nightstar CS with guessing GS 5mm led (the little one with OD webbing on the left) inside an INCH bag as it's far more packable for something I may never use given how long my packed lights operate with batteries. So in total I have 4.

Capacitor... I think...





Rare earth magnet with copper coil.





Magnetic switch so there is no actual access for water to get inside. 





Air vent guessing so the magnet can move without compressing the air but that's speculation. Maybe it's for something else.





Magnets with the same polarity (to repulse the larger rare earth magnet) on both sides of the inner tube to facilitate the shaking process.





Tonight the beam shots......


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## scout24 (Jul 13, 2017)

I do like your fire on a stick approach too, WW. No batteries to run dry, never needs charging. The IPX rating, however... . :thinking: :kiss:


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## Woods Walker (Jul 14, 2017)

A campfire lay can be set to handle really really hard rain though there are no guarantees with fire and water. LOL! I do think the Nightstar has an insanely good water rating. Something like 200 feet though I am only good up to my nose. Now the beam shots!!!!!


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## glockboy (Jul 14, 2017)

If you use the E01, or other aaa light, you can put the inhaler cap on it to make a lantern.


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## markr6 (Jul 14, 2017)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> So, in the event of an indefinite outage, without getting into geopolitical topics and probabilities of incidents or events, what are your plans ahead of time, if any, to provide illumination?



No plans really. I have so many lights and batteries sitting around at 60-80% charge that I don't give it a thought.

If things got really bad, a simple cheap 48-pack of AAs will power my 1xAA Zebralights for years.


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## Burgess (Jul 14, 2017)

Interesting thread here !

lovecpf



Let me add the fact Energizer Ultimate Lithium
batteries ( size AA and AAA ) now have a
20 Year Shelf Life rating !


And they tolerate a wide temperature range.


Oh, and they just dropped 25% in price !
:thumbsup:


I have great respect for the afore-mentioned
Fenix E01 lights !

But sure wish Fenix also made
an " AA cell " version, as well.

:sigh:
_


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## Crazyeddiethefirst (Jul 14, 2017)

I have a large flashlight collection with at least a 3:1 ratio of batteries to flashlights. I believe the collection would last 2-3 years without recharge capability, infinite with recharge capability. For family I have multiple solutions, but each year at least one gift per year is a new flashlight with batteries. For neighbors/acquaintances, I have close to 100 AAA lights I could gift...


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## TinderBox (UK) (Jul 15, 2017)

I makes me sick the majority of people give no though to be preferred for any emergency, no flashlight, no battery`s, no stored water, no way to generate electricity once the fuel runs out, I gave all my relatives magnetic flashlights for Christmas to attach to the refrigerator in case of an emergency.

The problem is in the UK, It is very very rare to get a power cut, and when we do it only last for an hour or two, So people see no reason to make any emergency preparedness at all.

I have a number of solar panels but with the amount of sun we get it the UK how much use will they be.

In the UK we only grow 40% of our food, The rest is imported, So if a significant proportion of the population survives how long before we dine on forbidden meats 

John.


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## broadgage (Jul 15, 2017)

An EMP attack would be devastating since it would destroy almost all electronics, I would expect most of the population to perish within a few weeks from lack of clean water, want of food and medical supplies, and from violent crime. Lighting though useful might be a lower priority than food, water, and defensive equipment.
Modern lights incorporating electronics would be vulnerable as would be modern batteries that incorporate electronic protection circuits.
Simpler batteries would be OK. Battery chargers, INCLUDING SOLAR CHARGE CONTROLLERS would be killed.

Without going too far into unwanted p0litical talk, I think it safe to say that an EMP event would HAVE to be an attack, the only known cause is a high altitude nuclear detonation, which is hardly a natural occurrence. Remember also that whoever was behind the EMP attack might follow up with other types of attack, including invasion.
I strongly recommend the novel " One Second After" for a fictional but IMHO fairly accurate account of an EMP attack and the consequences thereof.
There has never been a significant EMP event, though there is some evidence of localised effects from early above ground atomic bomb tests.

A solar flare by contrast is a natural event and could occur with no or very little warning at any time. A solar flare would cause damaging electric currents to flow in all very long electrical conductors, high voltage grid lines are the obvious weak point, but long pipelines, railroad tracks, telecommunications lines and even unusually long barbed wire fences are also at risk.
Most electrical equipment should survive just fine including everything portable, provided that it was not connected to the grid at the time.
Severe solar flares have occurred, but before the age of large electrical grids. Google the "Carrington event" for details.

A hacking attack on the grid is an unknown unknown, I would expect a national blackout for a few days to a few weeks, survivable by most. A hacking attack cant affect non grid electricity in most cases.


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## Str8stroke (Jul 15, 2017)

broadgage, "This post is not about Faraday Cages. Nor is it for discussing/debating the probabilities of an EMP, Flare, or Grid Hack.

Rather, it is to answer this question, "After a prolonged/indefinite power outage (emphasis on prolonged/indefinite), with many who will need illumination of various sorts, what will you share, distribute, give out, and will you be carrying some sort of bag from which to assist or help others?"

Just sayin.


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## broadgage (Jul 15, 2017)

I kept clear of Faraday cages and also kept clear of the likelihood of the 3 different events actually occurring.

The results of an EMP attack would however include the likely destruction of many items that some seem to be considering as useful preps.
It is unlikely that anything containing modern electronics would survive.

My lighting related preps include
Incandescent flashlights, including a few hundred spare bulbs.
100 Energiser lithium AA cells
100 Duracell alkaline D cells.
some "OLD STYLE" NICADS.

Batteries would probably be too scarce to routinely use for lighting after an EMP event.
Lighting would be mainly candles and oil lamps, these store well and are inherently immune to EMP.


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## TinderBox (UK) (Jul 15, 2017)

Just store any electronic items in a tight fitting steel box or cabinet, would wrapping flashlight ect in aluminium foil work to protect against emp.

John.


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## moldyoldy (Jul 15, 2017)

with considerable trepidation I decided to post on this topic, and hopefully my post will respect the original OP intentions of avoiding probabilities, etc. My apologies in advance if I went too far.

In a direct answer to the OP topic, late last year I decided to focus on USB charging. I purchased a smallish solar panel (16W). Although after running some tests, the average power output of the solar panel will be dismally low because of clouds, short exposure time at sun angle for peak output, etc. Hence some intermediate storage is required for solar panels. that need is perhaps answered by the small USB/18650 cell power sources. I have an nominal assortment of flashlights, some with USB charging, and USB chargers in case of. I do not have a bug-out bag since I live outside a major metro area. I avoid chargers that rely on the 120/240 VAC grid.

However, as an incentive for the forum readers to at least think about their response to a grid-level power failure, be it from an EMP, CME, etc., the current issue of "The Economist" (from London, July 2017), has an article entitled 'a flash in the sky'. skipping all of the 'what would happen' suggestive progression of events, I found the some specific data on the power grid to be interesting. 

- average age of high-voltage transformers on the US grid is about 40 years.
- The US grid runs on about 2500 large transformers., but only about 500 can be built in a year.
- currently about a year is required before an ordered grid transformer is received.
- power grid transformers can weigh 400 tonnes.
- there are ~9 critical substations in the US grid.


not incidentally, I happened to be in a BX in Syracuse NY at the start of the NorthEast Blackout in 1965. I was taught some lessons.


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## Str8stroke (Jul 15, 2017)

broadgage said:


> I kept clear of Faraday cages and also kept clear of the likelihood of the 3 different events actually occurring.
> 
> My lighting related preps include
> Incandescent flashlights, including a few hundred spare bulbs.
> ...



There ya go. :twothumbs
You made me remember I have 2 small oil lamps. Around here we call them Hurricane lights. I picked them up from a yard sale years ago. Tomorrow, I am going to check to see if I still have the oil & see about getting a few spare wicks. After reading your post, I think I need to get a pack or two of candles. I honestly don't think I have any in the house. I think candles would probably be a wise addition to my EMP preparedness kit.


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## RedLED (Jul 15, 2017)

Wrap everything in Cinefoil, it is not like the foil for cooking this is very thick. I did one wrap around my cell phone, used the House landline, and my cell would not ring.


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## glockboy (Jul 16, 2017)

I like the "UCO Mini Ultra Light Candle Lantern for Tealight Candles"
And 2 pack of 100 candles at Ikia for $3.50 each 100.
Sometime I just light them up at night just to look at them.


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## xdayv (Jul 16, 2017)

RedLED said:


> Wrap everything in Cinefoil, it is not like the foil for cooking this is very thick. I did one wrap around ny cell phone, used the House landline, and my cell would not ring.


Cool, do you still have to wrap it with a non-conductive wrapping on top or in between?

--
Which brings me to ponder if AA (and probably Size D) are still the most commonly available and practical option for these kind of scenarios?


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## RedLED (Jul 16, 2017)

xdayv said:


> Cool, do you still have to wrap it with a non-conductive wrapping on top or in between?
> 
> --
> Which brings me to ponder if AA (and probably Size D) are still the most commonly available and practical option for these kind of scenarios?



Wrap it a few times, put it in a Metal box, safe and it will I hope be fine. Again this is Cinefoil. For photographic and motion picture lighting. Call Mole Richardson in LA. 

I tested it with my cell phone, and it worked. However remember if you ever get in trouble or just want to disappear, I would just double stick tape my phone with a solar charged to a Union Pacific freight train, and let them figure that one out!

By the time whey figure it out you, or myself will be on a beach in the Maldives Islands, Indian Ocean. Wonderful place if you have not been, a little dangerous but not that bad! Just north of Diego Garcia, US Naval Supout facility, by like several hundred miles. spent some time there on an imbed that when wrong. I left and went to the Maldives, most beautiful water in the world!

And don't worry about the solar activity.


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## TinderBox (UK) (Jul 16, 2017)

Yeah, I think i read a while ago we have so much metal space junk that the earth is more protected than ever from a solar flare.

John.


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## broadgage (Jul 16, 2017)

I would avoid anything with electronics in it, including USB chargers, solar charge controllers and the like.
It is possible to provide battery lighting without any electronics, but takes a fair bit of planning.

A large flooded deep cycle acid battery is a good starting point, you do know how to charge it from a PV module without any electronics don't you ?
And how to determine when the battery is fully charged, by observation, without any electronic instrument or tester?
Old school D size nicads may be charged from this large battery, make certain that you have some of the batteries, and that you know at what current to charge them, and for how long, and means of setting the desired charging current and indicating this, again without any electronics.

Non portable lighting may be powered direct from the large battery, stock up on suitable INCANDESCENT lamps preferably lower wattage high efficiency types.

The D size nicads may be used in flashlights, do you have plenty of these ? And plenty of spare INCANDESCENT bulbs, dozens at least, hundreds might be prudent.

And returning to non electric alternatives, remember that the sort of outage we are talking about might be for years. Candles are good, but just one or two a day is 10,000 candles for 20 years.
Oil lamps are good, but don't forget spare parts, and say a hundred gallons of fuel.
Glowsticks are arguably the safest form of lighting, get a few hundred.


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## BloodLust (Jul 16, 2017)

Planning to get some UCO lanterns and the UCO Mini for the tea lights I have lying around. The Mini doesn't have great reviews due to the wax spilling if moved while hot but I'll be using it as a table light anyway and won't be moved around. The candles are last resort anyway. Just much safer in the lantern than a fully exposed flame.

Scanning yard sales for out of season candles are a cheap way to acquire some.


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## chaosdsm (Jul 16, 2017)

For a "prolonged" outage of several weeks or even months, solar power is the best way to go IMO. I'm using Goal Zero products for easy examples, there are competing products, & possibly better solar options available.

*For personal portability* (no vehicle available), something like the Goal Zero Sherpa 100 with two to four Nomad 28 Plus portable panels, or one Nomad 100 panel, depending on your power needs & weight restrictions, could be ideal. With 4 Nomad 28 Plus panels chained together for charging, the Sherpa 100 can be charged with as little as 3 hours of good sunlight (mid day with no clouds). Fully charged, the Sherpa 100 can theoretically charge seven to ten 3400mAh 18650's drained to around 3.2V, & weighs less than 2 pounds, while the Nomad 28+ panels weight about 3 pounds each.

*For vehicular portability, *something like the Goal Zero Yeti 400 Lithium only weighs 17 pounds & provides up to 428 watt hours of power, & can be charged in as little as 8 hours through four chained Nomad 28 Plus panels, or one Nomad 100 / Boulder 100 panel. Doesn't add a lot of weight that can reduce MPG/KPL, & can easily charge batteries, tablets, & laptops multiple times from a single charge.

*For in-home power, *theGoal Zero Yeti 1400 Lithium weighs in at just under 46 pounds & provides up to 1425 watt hours of power. which can run a decent sized refrigerator for up to 24 hours. It can be charged in as little as 6 hours through 6 chained Boulder 100 panels. 

Personally for in-home full-time power, I would like to have 4 of these, one for the refrigerator, one for cooking on the hot plate, one for whole house lighting, fans, entertainment (computer, TV, music), & battery charging, and one to run the water pump. I would still need electric service for the water heater & A/C, but unfortunately, even one Yeti 1400 is NOT justifiable with my current income, even for use during power outages. Especially since I have a 5550 running Watt (8000 Watt surge) gas powered generator for power outages & extended outages beyond 3 days is EXTREMELY unlikely.


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## broadgage (Jul 16, 2017)

Those talking about vehicular portability presumably have available a vintage vehicle, manufactured before about 1975 ? Nothing manufactured after about 1980 will run after an EMP, and the more modern vehicles from earlier years wont run either.
A horse would be a better bet.
Lithium batteries can only be safely charged with a fairly sophisticated charger, that contains electronics and will almost certainly be killed by the EMP.
Laptop or tablet PCs are unlikely to ever work again after an EMP.


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## idleprocess (Jul 16, 2017)

broadgage said:


> Those talking about vehicular portability presumably have available a vintage vehicle, manufactured before about 1975 ? Nothing manufactured after about 1980 will run after an EMP, and the more modern vehicles from earlier years wont run either.


I wouldn't worry about modern vehicles weathering EMPs - ECUs and their associated sensors and accessories are already hardened since engine electrical systems are quite harsh. Fuel availability is going to be a far *far* bigger problem since pumps will be offline and the fuel supply itself will rapidly vanish in today's world of JIT logistics.



broadgage said:


> A horse would be a better bet.


So long as there's forage to be had, this is true. I'd rather use a bicycle, however - less maintenance than a horse and easier to keep under a wider variety of circumstances.



broadgage said:


> Lithium batteries can only be safely charged with a fairly sophisticated charger, that contains electronics and will almost certainly be killed by the EMP.
> Laptop or tablet PCs are unlikely to ever work again after an EMP.


It's doubtful that standalone devices will be effected by an EMP since they lack the _long antenna_ of the electrical grid to channel induced current into them. Place backup electronics in a Faraday cage wrapped in alternating layers of conductor and insulator if you wish - the sudden lack of industrial civilization is going to be a far larger and far more pressing problem.


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## chaosdsm (Jul 17, 2017)

broadgage said:


> Those talking about vehicular portability presumably have available a vintage vehicle, manufactured before about 1975 ? Nothing manufactured after about 1980 will run after an EMP, and the more modern vehicles from earlier years wont run either.
> A horse would be a better bet.
> Lithium batteries can only be safely charged with a fairly sophisticated charger, that contains electronics and will almost certainly be killed by the EMP.
> Laptop or tablet PCs are unlikely to ever work again after an EMP.


If you've already taken the before steps, then all your modern electronics & vehicles could still work just fine depending on how much $$$ you spent before the event in preparation.


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## orbital (Jul 17, 2017)

+

$6 bucks spent at the dollar store gets you couple years of:

Cooking
Water sanitation
Heat/Warmth in colder weather
Make a genuine *torch*
Mood enhancer
..ect.

hotlinked image removed

(will need some heavy duty zip-loc bags for storage)


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## Crazyeddiethefirst (Jul 17, 2017)

Pardon my ignorant question, but I was under the impression that items like flashlight drivers, battery chargers, etc. that are not in use, in the off position and not plugged in or connected to an outlet at the time of emp would not be affected. Is this premise incorrect? Thanks


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## Rexlion (Jul 17, 2017)

We have food to share, and we intend to have extra water available (although a spring is within walking/bicycle distance). As for light, I think we will be better off leaving lights out for the most part during dark hours. No need to call attention to ourselves, and better to have eyesight adjusted to the night so we can see what's coming. If we find ourselves in a situation where we have to light 'em up, we will.


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## chaosdsm (Jul 17, 2017)

Crazyeddiethefirst said:


> Pardon my ignorant question, but I was under the impression that items like flashlight drivers, battery chargers, etc. that are not in use, in the off position and not plugged in or connected to an outlet at the time of emp would not be affected. Is this premise incorrect? Thanks



Depends on the magnitude of the event. An EMP, regardless of origin (solar / nuclear), sends magnetic waves. Just like a 'shake light' uses a magnet moving between wires to generate electricity, so to does an EMP's moving waves generate electricity within anything that is electrically conductive. Being turned off &/or unplugged can reduce the maximum damage that they might receive, but a strong enough event (like the 1859 Carrington Event) will still fry your electronics, unless they are in a properly shielded & grounded container.


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## idleprocess (Jul 17, 2017)

Crazyeddiethefirst said:


> Pardon my ignorant question, but I was under the impression that items like flashlight drivers, battery chargers, etc. that are not in use, in the off position and not plugged in or connected to an outlet at the time of emp would not be affected. Is this premise incorrect? Thanks



Powerful EMP's induce current in conductors, which act as antennas. Short conductors - such as in flashlights, laptops, wristwatches - are poor antennas, thus will see little current. Even a TV connected to a somewhat distant antenna on the other side of a building with 100+ feet of cabling might not see much induced current from the sort of EMP we're postulating about. The electrical grid, with its tens, hundreds, thousands of miles of conductors on the other hand will see *huge* induced currents, likely to damage everything connected to it.

On or off will likely matter little for a small standalone device not connected to the grid unless the power switch happens to physically disconnect effective antennas (conductors) from the sensitive bits. An EMP powerful enough to zap standalone electronics, you've got larger problems: a huge burst of ionizing radiation, high heat, overpressure, or no more problems whatsoever because you have perished of terminal reality failure.


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## broadgage (Jul 18, 2017)

Crazyeddiethefirst said:


> Pardon my ignorant question, but I was under the impression that items like flashlight drivers, battery chargers, etc. that are not in use, in the off position and not plugged in or connected to an outlet at the time of emp would not be affected. Is this premise incorrect? Thanks



A solar flare induces damaging currents in long conductors and could destroy anything connected to grid lines at the time of the incident. Unplugging such equipment should give complete protection.

An EMP is a different type of event, the energy pulse is enormously powerful and would induce damaging currents in any modern electronics unless specially hardened as some military gear is.
A large scale EMP attack would effectively end the modern world. I do not share the optimism expressed by others regarding vehicles surviving.
INCANDESCENT lamps should survive, but I doubt that LEDs and drivers would and I certainly would not stake my future on ANY modern consumer electronics surviving.

I again suggest reading "one second after" for a fictional account.


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## irongate (Jul 18, 2017)

broadgage said:


> A solar flare induces damaging currents in long conductors and could destroy anything connected to grid lines at the time of the incident. Unplugging such equipment should give complete protection.
> 
> An EMP is a different type of event, the energy pulse is enormously powerful and would induce damaging currents in any modern electronics unless specially hardened as some military gear is.
> A large scale EMP attack would effectively end the modern world. I do not share the optimism expressed by others regarding vehicles surviving.
> ...



One Second After, A Year Later, and one more deals with how people react and what they do after this attack. People will do a lot of things to get food, look at what people are doing down in Venezuela to get food. No pills for your pain,no banking,gas,food, the list goes on. When people talk about a attack on the power grid by a man made unit it will also include all of the reactors around the country plus hospitals. Try going for a week and then two and longer with no power like you had the day before. It effects the mind in many ways.
All I can say is prepare and make your old flashlights are working.
If nothing happens all the better, better to prepare than not.


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## TinderBox (UK) (Jul 18, 2017)

irongate said:


> One Second After, A Year Later, and one more deals with how people react and what they do after this attack. People will do a lot of things to get food, look at what people are doing down in Venezuela to get food. No pills for your pain,no banking,gas,food, the list goes on. When people talk about a attack on the power grid by a man made unit it will also include all of the reactors around the country plus hospitals. Try going for a week and then two and longer with no power like you had the day before. It effects the mind in many ways.
> All I can say is prepare and make your old flashlights are working.
> If nothing happens all the better, better to prepare than not.



I remember the quote: A _society_ is _only three meals_ away from anarchy.

John.


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## xdayv (Jul 18, 2017)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> I remember the quote: A _society_ is _only three meals_ away from anarchy.
> 
> John.


True. 

I've been an eyewitness to a similar event, back in Nov 2013 when Typhoon Haiyan (local name: Yolanda) struck our place, the strongest recorded typhoon to make landfall. It actually didn't take 3 square meals to have lawlessness, chaos and widespread looting. It took only a few hours.

Back then, I only had an old Maglite 5D which unreliably performed. From then on, tough lessons learned, and onwards to find better illumination tools. Here I am.


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## Crazyeddiethefirst (Jul 18, 2017)

Thanks for all the replies to my question. As I researched the issue, I am struck by the feeling I had about Y2K....nobody really has an accurate way to predict the actual effects with any specificity. Therefore, I will do the same as I did for Y2K: prepare for the worst and pray for the best. My collection of lights affords me a lot of flexibility regarding incandescent Vs LED, but I will expand my supply of bulbs, which currently cover most formats I have...


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## irongate (Jul 18, 2017)

Crazyeddiethefirst said:


> Thanks for all the replies to my question. As I researched the issue, I am struck by the feeling I had about Y2K....nobody really has an accurate way to predict the actual effects with any specificity. Therefore, I will do the same as I did for Y2K: prepare for the worst and pray for the best. My collection of lights affords me a lot of flexibility regarding incandescent Vs LED, but I will expand my supply of bulbs, which currently cover most formats I have...



That is a good way of doing Sir:twothumbs


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## TinderBox (UK) (Jul 18, 2017)

I remember reading a story about the coronal ejection that seared all life from the surface of the earth, some human escaped in spaceships others went deep underground, after a number of years the led`s started to die one by one, so they had to rely on incandescent bulbs and as they wore out, tungsten to make new filaments became extremely had to find and after a 1000 years they were forced to return to the surface of the earth.

John.


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## moldyoldy (Jul 19, 2017)

hmmm, skipping comments about an EMP or CME or ..., the responses tended to fall into one of two camps: 
Those who favored a stock of primary cells;
and those whose primary planned lighting support came from rechargeable cells. 
In the case of rechargeable cells, various means were employed by which to re-charge the depleted cells.

Regarding primary cells: Storage conditions are important! We have all observed in flashlights stored with cells, that primary cells leak. even the Alkaline cells. and some of the Eveready Lithium cells in my possession have developed fuzz on a terminal long before the listed lifetime expired. Early Lithium cells used in the emergency radio beacons on light A/C were notorious for starting fires. At that time, rechargeable cells were only Nickel-Cadmium Pocket cells with a fluid electrolyte and used primarily in A/C. Hence primary cells do not represent my main interest.

Before the military and the engineering worlds, I spent a couple years in the US Forest Service (early '60s) up on the Bitterroot Divide between Montana and Idaho, 'Big Timber Country' in the 'backwoods'. any doctor was several hours away. So at that remote ranger station, the only power came from a diesel generator in the mule pasture - generation hours of about 0530-1900. off the rest of the time. the USFS relied on primary cells, purchasing "D" Cells and other specialty radio cells by the case. These were supposed to be the 'good' cells, not just the 'carbon-zinc' cells. One of my jobs was to dispose (dig a hole) all "D" cells older than 2 years - the USFS standard lifetime for those D cells. The specialty radio cell supply was easily exhausted each season. One time I asked the fire boss if I could keep some of the D-cells. no objection. so I went thru a case of D-cells testing them.....I buried that case too.

I will stay with rechargeable cells, be they individual 14500 or 18650s or any variation of the USB/18650 combinations. 

oops, forgot to include the AA Eneloops as well. The D-cell Ni-MH cells are too pricey. If I need that AH level, then I would switch to the 18650, or 26650, or some battery pack.


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## broadgage (Jul 20, 2017)

Most modern cells require careful charging, and that implies the use of a sophisticated battery charger that is most unlikely to survive an EMP event.

My favoured rechargeable cell are the "old school" D size NiCad 4 amp hour capacity, intended for emergency lighting. These are very long lasting and reliable and can be charged safely without a proper charger.
Presuming that you have a large, charged, 12 volt wet cell battery, these 4AH D size cells may be charged by a simple connection with a resistance in series to limit the current. A lamp is the best resistance since it confirms correct operation by lighting.
Recommended charging is 0.2 amps indefinitely or 0.4 amps for 14 hours.

Example to charge 6 such cells in series I would use a 6 volt 0.3 amp lamp as the resistance. Charging for about 20 or 24 hours would be about right, no great accuracy is claimed, nor is any needed. A not full charge will often serve the purpose, and this type of cell withstands overcharge well.
Fast charging is possible but great care must be taken. 

These cells are normally supplied spot welded end to end, covered in heat shrink, and with wires or terminals at the ends. It is a simple matter to buy a stick of the correct number of cells, remove the wires or terminals and insert into a standard cylinder shaped flashlight.
These are widely sold on UK fleabay, may be less popular in America ?

Prices on UK fleabay are often in the region of £2 to £3 per cell, that is a 4 cell stick would be in the region of £8/£12, a dozen of those, a few 4d maglights, and a hundred bulbs could give you lighting for decades provided that you had means of charging such as a PV module.

I keep several of these 4 cell sticks to hand, and old 4 D maglights with incandescent bulbs. The oldest batteries are well over 20 years old and still work perfectly, though I do have newer ones as well.


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## moldyoldy (Jul 20, 2017)

^ Good points Broadgage! Thanks for the input! I forgot about these cells.

I agree that the 'old school' Ni-Cad cells would be good for this purpose. Ni-Cds evolved from pocket-plate (fillable liquid electrolyte) to sintered-plate to jelly-roll, etc. Excellent high-current characteristics which is why Ni-Cds were used in A/C systems. The Ni-Cd chemistry tolerated over-charging very well, so even a simple current-limited charging method such as a current source in-series with an incandescent bulb was effective. I agree that the modern Li-Ion charger, if not protected, could have problems if exposed to an EMP or similar upset event, all depending on the orientation of the charger to the pulse radiation source. 

The primary problem with Ni-Cds in my experience was the whiskers growing thru the cell separator, leading to the cell discharging quickly and then with the whisker shorting out the cell, it would not charge. A jolt of high current would 'flash' the whisker, but the tiny hole thru the separator remained, and the failure cycle repeated. I had this consistent experience with the first consumer-grade low-cost GE Ni-Cd sub-C cells inside a wrapper up to D-cell size, or eventually the AA Ni-Cd cells. The problem was not limited to consumer-grade Ni-Cd cells. I spent company money for an expensive Tektronics battery pack designed for one of their a semi-portable Oscilloscopes. in time I repeatedly replaced several cells in this pack, then eventually moved on to other design efforts. Eventually I realized that some sort of low-level constant charging was necessary.

why a battery supply for an oscilloscope? I needed total separation from the AC Mains because I was measuring AC waveforms from Revere Load Cells, which meant measuring as low as a microvolt of delta V output. I even had to drive my own ground rod just outside the R&D lab with a heavy wire coming thru the window to obtain stable readings. We designed truck and track weigh-scales used for payment and we had to be accurate. The track scale was used weighing-in-motion with 1% guaranteed accuracy. All of our scales needed a ground rod on site.

Back to the old Ni-Cds: the large AH cells/packs as found in many surplus houses (Axeman, etc.) could be culled to find some good cells or even entire packs. Hence the proposed usage would be effective for these old packs. In any case, adaptation and innovation will be the rule of the day for 'the day after'!


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## moldyoldy (Jul 21, 2017)

Broadgage and other posters indirectly reminded me that the lighting itself does not have to be a flashlight, or lantern, or candle-lantern.

The little mini-USB based COB lights such as sold by DROK or Vitee via Amazon, and in particular the touch dimmer versions, are a valid light source. avoid the non-dimmer versions. 5-6 of these COB lights cost ~~$10-$18. For general room walk-thru lighting, just 1 or 2 of these COB touch dimmer lights and a USB battery pack and you will have light for the night hours. warm or cold tints are available from different brands. 150ma full current draw.

I handed out quite a few of these to relatives/friends etc. Probably the best use reported back to me has been a night light for the hunting cabins which normally have no electricity. Since these LED PCboards are bi-directional for the USB port, turn the combined USB pack &/or light in the desired direction, set to the level desired, and it will run the entire night easily.

I have an assortment of USB-output battery packs from 5400mah to 20600mah, so far. many vendors sell these. however I have discovered that the useful AH capacities start at about 4-5AH or about 2x 18650 cells internally. my wife uses a 20AH USB pack for her Ikea USB LED light.


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## TinderBox (UK) (Jul 22, 2017)

I suppose you would not need that much light if you get up at sunrise and go to bed not long after sunset, Back to the timetable our body`s were designed for.

John.


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## irongate (Jul 22, 2017)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> I suppose you would not need that much light if you get up at sunrise and go to bed not long after sunset, Back to the timetable our body`s were designed for.
> 
> John.



That is the way it is now for me =up at 4:30 am =bed 9:30 so it is. That is how life is when you get old!

I really hope we never see the day of a real EMP, but Iran and N.K. well that is another story.


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## moldyoldy (Jul 22, 2017)

FWIW, one quirk or Macke that may have been noticed about these USB output power packs: they shut off automatically if the current drawn from their USB port is too low. different manufacturers have different current cut-off levels. the reason is that keeping the electronics in the USB pack functioning also takes some current, which would otherwise discharge the cells. 

I found that out because my wife uses the Ikea LED light powered via a USB plug for her nightlight in the bathroom and plugged in to a USB power pack. The current draw from the Ikea LED USB light is insufficient to keep some of my USB power packs operational. the shut-off time varies between the USB packs from less than a minute to 5 min or more. hence I use one of the little LED lights mounted on it's reversible USB plug in a second port and set that to a low output level. or if the USB pack has a single port, then the COB LED light is the nightlight albeit set to a higher output level.

noting also that I attempt to avoid use of the AC mains for alarm clocks or checking out anything that goes 'bump' in the night. my first instinct is to reach for a flashlight at the bedside and check out the noise, never for a light switch. My UPS beeping is my first warning of a power failure, although if a Thunderstorm is expected, I will shut that off to save run time just in case. I routinely use my UPS to keep my cable modem & wireless router up/running during power failures - checking on the extent of any power failure is the first task. The cable system itself has never failed in multiple living locations, even for day/night long failures. not sure what their backup system is.

edit: The Ikea LED USB light draws about 50ma at 5v


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## broadgage (Jul 22, 2017)

I do not believe that ANY of the USB based devices mentioned would survive an EMP attack, they all contain electronics.

The future after an EMP would be either flame based lighting or very simple incandescent electric lighting from low tech batteries, ones without any inbuilt protection circuit and not reliant on an electronic battery charger.


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## moldyoldy (Jul 22, 2017)

broadgage said:


> I do not believe that ANY of the USB based devices mentioned would survive an EMP attack, they all contain electronics.
> 
> The future after an EMP would be either flame based lighting or very simple incandescent electric lighting from low tech batteries, ones without any inbuilt protection circuit and not reliant on an electronic battery charger.



I concur - given that the average electronic device is sitting on a shelf or in a drawer somewhere in conventional living quarters. the KV/meter induced from past nuclear tests is scary. 

however the EMP pulse outcome changes depending on storage in a metal box, preferably steel, or some metal wrap of sufficient density. I use the common surplus US Military .50 cal ammunition boxes to store my more versatile chargers, USB power packs and lights. The overlapping flange is key here.

going off topic a bit: I do know that EMP testing is being conducted, both generation and susceptibility. The EMP source is not a nuclear device. as one general commented to me: "all I have to do is to send an EMP drone down the line of battle and everyone is back to iron sights".


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## broadgage (Jul 23, 2017)

Just about on topic, does anyone still manufacture wet Leclanche cells ? The dry components should keep forever and the assembled cell should be utterly EMP proof.
Not portable of course but still useful. A quick google suggests they are no longer made.

I have stored the materials to make basic lead acid cells, the materials store indefinitely and the working life should be 20 years or more once assembled.


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## irongate (Jul 23, 2017)

Here is some information on EMP's and what countries are planning to do their warfare with it.

http://allnewspipeline.com/Dr_Peter_Pry_Is_Nuclear_Deterrent_Enough.php


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## BloodLust (Jul 23, 2017)

I might spring for a Crossbreed Resistor Ark Protector bag. $20.
I'll load it with a quality AA light with moonlight mode and AA lantern. A solar panel (Like a Goal Zero Nomad 7 and a Guide 10+ charger/power bank. Single bay USB charger (Liitokala Lii100 or Olight UC). Some alkalines as backup.
The lantern is a backup to the flashlight and the single bay charger is backup to the Guide10+.
Keep the Ark bag in an insulation lined metal ammo can.
In the can as well are some candles, tinder, lighters, matches, ferro rod with striker.






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I just took a bath using just a bucket of water and the bathroom lit with only a tea light.
Simulation of a water shortage and power outage.


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## irongate (Jul 23, 2017)

BloodLust said:


> I might spring for a Crossbreed Resistor Ark Protector bag. $20.
> I'll load it with a quality AA light with moonlight mode and AA lantern. A solar panel (Like a Goal Zero Nomad 7 and a Guide 10+ charger/power bank. Single bay USB charger (Liitokala Lii100 or Olight UC). Some alkalines as backup.
> The lantern is a backup to the flashlight and the single bay charger is backup to the Guide10+.
> Keep the Ark bag into an insulation lined metal ammo can.
> ...



Good idea on the bag, Thank You


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## Confederate (Sep 28, 2017)

How about a safe? Will most *heavy safes* protect electronic equipment from an EMP event?

Are protected *18650 batteries* safe? Or will the protective circuit be in danger of being fried?

Thanks!


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## TinderBox (UK) (Sep 28, 2017)

Are these new phones ect that charge wirelessly be more susceptible to an emp as they charge by induction.

Also phone`s and tablets are never truly turned off unless you pull the battery so an emp will still get them unless they are shielded. 

John.


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## irongate (Sep 28, 2017)

On this bag you can cut it in halve and store different items in each one. Then seal it with aluminum heating duck tape and you are good to go. It one bag someplace and one different place


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## xdayv (Sep 28, 2017)

One thing I don't like about the ARK protector bag is it doesn't have a sealing mechanism like a zip lock type. There are other products that have one, more convenient. But to its effectiveness, I cannot determine.


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## Going_Supernova (Sep 28, 2017)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> This post is not about Faraday Cages. Nor is it for discussing/debating the probabilities of an EMP, Flare, or Grid Hack.
> 
> Rather, it is to answer this question, "After a prolonged/indefinite power outage (emphasis on prolonged/indefinite), with many who will need illumination of various sorts, what will you share, distribute, give out, and will you be carrying some sort of bag from which to assist or help others?"
> 
> ...



LOL! Nope! I'm not Santa Claus, or Uncle Sam, I won't be carrying a bagful of lighting goodies to hand out. I'll be lucky to have enough for me and mine. 

I have been gifting flashlights to my family members for a few years now, until now I have one child begging me to not gift her anymore flashlights! I probably will keep it up, though, as lights get better and her needs change. 

In a prolonged grid-down scenario, the only light I see myself giving out is a brief flash of light, followed by a loud boom and flash, freely given to someone threatening me or my family.


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## moldyoldy (Oct 27, 2017)

bump: just to be complete, here is one more method to shut down an electric grid - graphite filaments across power lines.

These were used in WWII and in both Gulf Wars. very effective.
such a deployment is maybe not likely for the US, but if you live in more combative parts of the world.....check your flashlights - these outages will be long!

edit: to be technically correct, long aluminium foil strips were used in WWII. same effect.


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## Going_Supernova (Oct 27, 2017)

moldyoldy said:


> bump: just to be complete, here is one more method to shut down an electric grid - graphite filaments across power lines.
> 
> These were used in WWII and in both Gulf Wars. very effective.
> such a deployment is maybe not likely for the US, but if you live in more combative parts of the world.....check your flashlights - these outages will be long!
> ...



Today's Mylar balloons equal WWII's aluminum chaff. I recently took a power company safety class at CERT training, and they demo'ed what Mylar balloons do when they contact power lines. They will definitely cause a power outage. *Never do balloon releases with Mylar balloons!* And be careful holding onto inflated ones--look *UP* to make sure you don't just "walk" one into an overhead power line, it could be the last thing you ever do.


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## rjking (Oct 29, 2017)

72 hours Grid down Drill starting on November 4.


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## TinderBox (UK) (Oct 29, 2017)

Dark Angle, Jessica Alba, Enough Said.


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