# PRACTICE DRILL: A mass solar flare just hit earth. The grid is down...



## ForrestChump (Oct 18, 2015)

*PRACTICE DRILL:*

"A massive solar flare just hit earth and caused unprecedented damage to our ( US ) power grid. The entire US is without power. The condition outside of the US power grids is currently unknown. News is spreading from word of mouth and a network of well prepared and informed HAM operators that the best case scenario would be 12 to 24 months until we have a _chance_ for a feeble but functional power grid system being implemented. While functional, it is expected to be overtaxed at best and can only cover about 1/3 of the USA."

What do you have prepped *RIGHT NOW* to supplement your lighting, and if so inclined, other power needs? The fantasies of other discussions and grandiose preps of the future are of no use to you, the time is here. Your house is dark, your neighborhood, your country.

Are you prepared?


----------



## Str8stroke (Oct 18, 2015)

Not to nit pick, but its more likely that it would be Ham Radio operators spreading the word.  But the CB gang would undoubtedly help out. 

I am actually already prepared. Depending on what damages my gear sustains from a EMP. I actually keep 2 smaller rigs: Panels and controllers stored in a metal boxes, in a metal lockers. That should shield me from anything but a direct blast. Plus, I have several solar rigs that can run a large percentage of my necessaries for a long time.


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 18, 2015)

The guy with a box of candles who also has a rainwater collection system and a pantry of bulk foods is going to be a lot better off than the flashlight collector with the water in his toilet tank and some condiments..


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 18, 2015)

Str8stroke said:


> Not to nit pick, but its more likely that it would be Ham Radio operators spreading the word.  But the CB gang would undoubtedly help out.
> 
> I am actually already prepared. Depending on what damages my gear sustains from a EMP. I actually keep 2 smaller rigs: Panels and controllers stored in a metal boxes, in a metal lockers. That should shield me from anything but a direct blast. Plus, I have several solar rigs that can run a large percentage of my necessaries for a long time.


 
I knew I would goof up the radio part...(fixed)...seems like a really cool hobby but as someone who binges on information Im _way_ overloaded. Cool on the preps. :thumbsup: Me personally I don't think flashlights are effected and don't sweat small electronics not plugged in. We learned that length is a significant contributing factor from the Carrington event. But with all our modern Gizmos, who really _knows_. Each person can pick their own setup and try and predict a potential outcome. Just so people know going into this...*this is not a debate about faraday cages, so I don't want to hear about any dang microwaves **.* *This is a dry run of a HUGE event that just happened and what you got with you NOW.*

Me? Im way underprepared and trying to get motivated again.



StarHalo said:


> The guy with a box of candles who also has a rainwater collection system and a pantry of bulk foods is going to be a lot better off than the flashlight collector with the *water in his toilet tank and some condiments*..



True that. Forrest don't do no toilet water. I got a Sawyer mini. Sucker works, found a whole bunch of deer turds up stream from where I filled up. :green:


----------



## Poppy (Oct 18, 2015)

When solar flares hit, do we get any warning? Or do they come at the speed of light, and by time we/our scientists - see them, they are already here?


----------



## Str8stroke (Oct 18, 2015)

Poppy:
They can see the solar flares a good ways out. They can predict the impact and somewhat the damages based on Coronal Mass Ejections. 
http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/CMEs.shtml

These can be some bad boys. In the past the most we have had is minor satellite damage and Radio Frequency (RF) disruptions. But we have been lucky! When they know these are coming, they will put the satellites in a Impact Mode. To help lesson the odds of damage.
Some Ham radio operators look forward to some of these minor ones. They cause the radio waves to go crazy and we can talk to places that we can sometimes have to wait years to talk to. Also know, the sun moves in 7 year cycles. Active sunspots can add fun to the hobby too. 
I am not a expert, but I do follow the suns activity due to my hobby interests. 

Part of my prep activities is Ham radio. I have been into it for years. When the cell phones go down, my radios work. During world wide catastrophes it is very interesting to hear how people deal with no cell phone or computer communications. One interesting fact is that there are now more Ham radio license holders in the US now than ever before. Yes, I know the population is also higher. However, it maybe part of the Prepper Movement? You can also talk to the ISS if your are lucky.  

Interesting fact: Radio waves travel at the speed of light.


----------



## Treeguy (Oct 18, 2015)

StarHalo said:


> The guy with a box of candles who also has a rainwater collection system and a pantry of bulk foods is going to be a lot better off than the flashlight collector with the water in his toilet tank and some condiments..



:thumbsup: 

_*"Simplify! Simplify!"*

Henry David Thoreau_


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 18, 2015)

Poppy said:


> When solar flares hit, do we get any warning? Or do they come at the speed of light, and by time we/our scientists - see them, they are already here?



Excellent question Poppy St8 did a good job.




Str8stroke said:


> *But we have been lucky! *



+1,000

Whats different about this and other "prepper" concerns is this is simply a matter of when. Several prominent political figures have directly warned about the current condition and the likely hood of a solar flare causing irreparable harm. Look at our power grid like ATT & when the iPhone came out. Dropped calls were every other phone call....to many phones not enough towers. Weak sauce. Similarly our power grid is out dated and vulnerable, it belongs in a museum. To my very limited understanding there are 3 main places that control the power. If these were to be compromised by something like a solar flare......no more CPF for a decade as there will be no internet.


----------



## RWT1405 (Oct 18, 2015)

I'm with StarHalo on this. 

As much as I enjoy flashlights, in this event, they are far down my list of things I'm worrying about. 

Having said that, I think I'm pretty well prepared in that event anyway. LOL


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 18, 2015)

RWT1405 said:


> I'm with StarHalo on this.
> 
> As much as I enjoy flashlights, in this event, they are far down my list of things I'm worrying about.
> 
> LOL



For every thread similar to this one ( although I consider it pretty original in it's format. ) there are 2 of these comments. YES I would rather have toilet paper than a flashlight. :toilet: Think of this as a mental exercise and a surprise inventory of a hobby we are fascinated with.

3 weeks without food. 3 days without water. 3 hours without shelter. 3 minutes without air. 

Duly Noted.


----------



## Poppy (Oct 18, 2015)

Str8stroke said:


> Poppy:
> They can see the solar flares a good ways out. They can predict the impact and somewhat the damages based on Coronal Mass Ejections.
> http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/CMEs.shtml


Thank you Str8stroke,
It is my VERY LIMITED understanding that the EMP impulse is what causes the damage, and that the EMP doesn't affect electronics that aren't powered up at the time. I don't know if Faraday cages protect things that are powered up, but at any rate, the reason I asked about getting a warning, so that we have time to react, prepare, or more importantly: would the power companies have time to react/prepare? Maybe they could voluntarily shut down the grid, wait out the EMP, and then fire it back up. I guess even hospitals, that might be on back-up power would lose their generators, once the EMP hits. Would battery back-up systems also immediately fail?


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 18, 2015)

The guy who knows just enough about electricity to have a solar panel/SLA array wins there. Anybody know a good Dummy's Guide to setting up a solar panel/SLA array?


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 19, 2015)

StarHalo said:


> The guy with a box of candles who also has a rainwater collection system and a pantry of bulk foods is going to be a lot better off than the flashlight collector with the water in his toilet tank and some condiments..



+100,000,000

Isn't there sports or something on TV?

In order:

Water: Live close to a very very large body of drinkable water --- not worried
Food: It will quickly become boring, but rice, freeze dried mashed potatoes, and canned chickpeas to last a good amount of time. Also good when you are too lazy to cook something interesting.
Warmth: Mummy bags (helps to be a camper), and have the backup of catalytic heater (with O2 sensor, and battery operated CO sensor).

Flashlights and batteries ... not that concerned. If there is an EMP big enough to take out a solar panel (they are very robust), then a flashlight will be the least of my concerns. Car battery is always charged, alkalines, solar panels, candles .... I will survive.


----------



## Str8stroke (Oct 19, 2015)

Poppy said:


> Thank you Str8stroke,
> It is my VERY LIMITED understanding that the EMP impulse is what causes the damage, and that the EMP doesn't affect electronics that aren't powered up at the time. I don't know if Faraday cages protect things that are powered up, but at any rate, the reason I asked about getting a warning, so that we have time to react, prepare, or more importantly: would the power companies have time to react/prepare? Maybe they could voluntarily shut down the grid, wait out the EMP, and then fire it back up. I guess even hospitals, that might be on back-up power would lose their generators, once the EMP hits. Would battery back-up systems also immediately fail?



You pose some very good questions. Keep in mind that a EMP can destroy electronics that are NOT plugged in a wall outlet. You can think of your electronic gear with a circuit board as sort of a EMP receiver or antenna if you will. The problem of a EMP is that the electrical energy is in the air. Imagine a wireless charger on super steroids. It can fry your unplugged gear. Hence the idea behind the faraday cage talk. A good example of a faraday cage is your microwave. You see the metal in your front glass. This helps limit the radiation leaking. Naturally it can't contain it all. 
Ever watch a spy movie and they put their cell phones in the microwave? Some think that it will keep it from being able to be bugged. That probably just works in the movies, but you get the idea.
How about when you go in a building and your cell phone won't get signal, step out the front door and works. The building is acting as a type of faraday cage. 
Back in the day to secure old electronics from EMP, they would pull the vacuum tubes and store them in the ground or lead containers or faraday type cages. I assume they sorta protect modern gear in some of the same ways.

Enough on all that. 

Star Halo: They are super easy to set up and can be done for less than one might imagine. If you search around you can find quality solar panels for around a dollar a watt. A basic system can consist of a 15 watt panel, a 10 amp solar controller, and a decent deep cycle battery. Then you can grow from there. 
I would consider the above a good learning tool. If you are planning to run household electronics, you will obviously need a bigger system. Imagine trying to run your clothes dryer off your car alternator and battery. What would you need in order to do that?? A lot of cars! lol

One tech tip on solar panels, if you don't have a solar controller or a diode, at night the panel will drain your storage battery!


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 19, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> *What do you have prepped RIGHT NOW to supplement your lighting, and if so inclined, other power needs? *



:candle:


----------



## martinaee (Oct 19, 2015)

Would an actual direct hit onto the Earth from a pretty big solar flare damage/destroy most modern led flashlights that have full aluminum bodies? What can you keep lights/electronics in that would protect them against large amounts of electro-magnetism? Any kind of metal box? Steel box?


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 19, 2015)

martinaee said:


> Would an actual direct hit onto the Earth from a pretty big solar flare damage/destroy most modern led flashlights that have full aluminum bodies? What can you keep lights/electronics in that would protect them against large amounts of electro-magnetism? Any kind of metal box? Steel box?




( not aimed at martinaee ) I should have known there was no way to stay on topic.


In regards to the box.. its debatable. Some say it has to be grounded, some say if it's not plugged in it doesn't matter. Some say that if it fits in a bread box it's to small to have any effect. Some say if your worried stick it in the microwave. Some say that doesn't work. There are MANY interesting threads on this all over the web. Some completely skip the question and worry about water. I however worry more about toilet paper. Then after the do is done being able to take a shower.


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 19, 2015)

*Please search the term "EMP" here on CPF for many hours of reading of discussions on the topic that come to few solid conclusions. *



Str8stroke said:


> They are super easy to set up and can be done for less than one might imagine. If you search around you can find quality solar panels for around a dollar a watt. A basic system can consist of a 15 watt panel, a 10 amp solar controller, and a decent deep cycle battery.



See I get that; there's the flatscreen-sized solar panels that are dirt cheap over at Harbor Freight, and then you get a car battery, but that's pretty much the limit of my knowledge on the subject. I'm sure the electronics theory behind it all is very simple, and you just need the device between the panel and the battery to complete the setup, there just needs to be a regular Joe's guide on what/where to buy and how to [safely] set it up.


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 20, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> ( not aimed at martinaee ) I should have known there was no way to stay on topic.
> 
> 
> In regards to the box.. its debatable. Some say it has to be grounded, some say if it's not plugged in it doesn't matter. Some say that if it fits in a bread box it's to small to have any effect. Some say if your worried stick it in the microwave. Some say that doesn't work. There are MANY interesting threads on this all over the web. Some completely skip the question and worry about water. I however worry more about toilet paper. Then after the do is done being able to take a shower.



There is massive inaccurate knowledge on the web w.r.t. solar flares and EMP. The electrical grid, old exposed copper based phone lines, etc. are susceptible due the very large distances involved and the very high currents that can be generated taking out transformers, switch gear, etc. Keep in mind much of this is ground referenced and huge ground currents will be generated. One could worry about your electrical stuff that is connected to the grid as well (without surge protectors especially). Flares do not travel at the speed of light so we have warning and can disconnect at the utility level to reduce damage.

Unless we are hit with something never predicted before, then small portable electronics will be just fine. Solar panels will be just fine, etc. I am with ForrestChump on this one. Running out of TP would suck ... especially without regular running water.

Any conductive, somewhat tight fitting metal box can be a faraday cage. It's all about preventing induced voltage differentials. Yes a microwave oven interior will provide a level of protection. It will not shield against all EMI, but it will shield against most.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 20, 2015)

What do I have prepped right now? Knowledge and location.

I live within walking distance of a fishing pond with cattails (all parts are edible at some point of the year.)

I'm on good terms with some heavy gardeners and help them pick for free, so I get some too.

If you can press oil, you can run an oil lamp. If you can render fat and drip water through white wood ash, you can make soap and candles.

I have two solar cooking methods.

So totally not worried about an EMP event. The worst part would be warm beer and no music, worst case scenario.


----------



## Nicrod (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm more prepped than the majority of the general population, but I still worry. 

Dont have nearly enough stored food or fresh water. Still need somekind of solar charging rig. 
I'm good on lights and cells tho :thumbsup: and have a decent stash of candles and oil for lamps


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 20, 2015)

Give a man a flashlight and he can see for an evening.
 Teach a man to make candles and he'll have an easy time getting dates. 

As far as stored food, the nitrogen purged #10 cans are fairly cheap and can have a shelf life of up to 25 years.

Water is the biggie, you won't be used to the major diet change and will need all the clean water you can get. Boil if you can't do anything else.

http://www.backyardnature.net/j/solardsh.htm
http://solarcooking.wikia.com/wiki/Satellite_dish

These things can scare you with how hot and how fast. I have mine coupled with a pressure cooker. Use the pressure cooker on a campfire once or twice to blacken the bottom and increase heat absorption.


----------



## 1DaveN (Oct 20, 2015)

RWT1405 said:


> I'm with StarHalo on this.
> 
> As much as I enjoy flashlights, in this event, they are far down my list of things I'm worrying about.
> 
> Having said that, I think I'm pretty well prepared in that event anyway. LOL



IMO the problem is that with a disaster of the magnitude described by the OP, those who are well prepared are going to have to defend themselves against those with nothing but stale bread and a bunch of condiments. That's why while I agree that flashlights may not be at the top of the list, they're still a critical part of preparedness. I like the idea of using candles for light, and saving my powerful lights for when I hear the zombies approaching.

I think the disaster and survival related posts are among the most interesting and useful on CPF. Checking the thermostat with a $70 light (and $20 battery) is cool, but the justification for having that light to begin with is that it could be needed for something a lot more important. A lot of posters here have made useful, practical suggestions on these topics that I really appreciate.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 20, 2015)

1DaveN said:


> I think the disaster and survival related posts are among the most interesting and useful on CPF. Checking the thermostat with a $70 light (and $20 battery) is cool, but the justification for having that light to begin with is that it could be needed for something a lot more important. A lot of posters here have made useful, practical suggestions on these topics that I really appreciate.



$20 battery is nice, but even a cheap battery can do cool stuff.


----------



## 1DaveN (Oct 20, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> $20 battery is nice, but even a cheap battery can do cool stuff.



My E25UE and 14500s are on the way. Watch out, zombies.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 20, 2015)

...wait solar flares cause Zombies? Man, Earth is a time bomb waiting to happen...


----------



## markr6 (Oct 20, 2015)

Do whatever I need to do during the daylight. Drink whatever beer I have at night and sleep it off.

Not much need for light really - a few shots here and there to do whatever. Worst case scenario some light to identify anyone trying to break into my house...but out of 100,000 houses around here mine isn't especially attractive so I'm not too worried.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 20, 2015)

markr6 said:


> out of 100,000 houses around here mine isn't especially attractive so I'm not too worried.


When the Apocalypse comes, it will be addressed "Occupant."


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 20, 2015)

markr6 said:


> Do whatever I need to do during the daylight. Drink whatever beer I have at night and sleep it off.



Gonna want some way to keep that beer cold..


----------



## Tre_Asay (Oct 20, 2015)

StarHalo said:


> Gonna want some way to keep that beer cold..


I don't drink... but your welcome


----------



## beaconterraone (Oct 21, 2015)

Three days - just nine meals - to Anarchy. 

Most Americans don't have more than a week's food in their home. Many have less. Only a tiny percentage have much more (preppers, Mormons, and similar).

The number one "preparation" one can undertake for any form of enduring catastrophe or the Apocalypse is to get out of the cities, now. Alas, most aren't willing to sacrifice income and luxury. And if TSHTF, they will be in the midst of killing zones.

If any disaster takes out electricity and/or electronics on more than a very limited scale (a few counties, maybe a medium-sized state), the entire country will descend into chaos within two weeks. We are woefully dependent upon electricity & computers for nearly everything now. The entire national grid can come down in a cascade effect if large portions, though distant, go down. 

If one is in a rural setting, I advise months worth of food, an enduring means to obtain or make potable water, plenty of fuel and/or alternative heating, and weapons & ammunition to assure you get to keep it. If the new Carrington Event or man-made EMP is not devastating to your immediate environs, it would be ideal to have solar or windmill power for your home/farm. _*If*_ electronics work, you can recharge your 18650s, etc., and have perpetual lighting.

For those who remained in the cities, I advise deep prayer, or KYAGB.


----------



## Woods Walker (Oct 21, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> $20 battery is nice, but even a cheap battery can do cool stuff.





What a battery? _*Everyone *_knows two sticks, some cord and oyster shells work just fine.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 21, 2015)

Love your posts, WW.


----------



## Woods Walker (Oct 21, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Love your posts, WW.



Thanks brother. I was practicing the other day as getting ready for a 2-3 day outing with no packed food, water (or purification method), matches, firesteel, lighter or charred materials outing. The headlamp used was my old HL20 which despite years of hard service had been mostly retired (it started to mist the reflector after exposure to water). That issue cleared up but it was time for something new in 1XAA headlamp and flashlight. My older most used ones were a NW Quark mini (xp-e 5a) and LD10 (XP-G Gen 1). Now those have been replaced with a HL50 and SC5w. Still the old HL20 did a fine job during the night testing of the shells gathered from the beach last weekend. Lower friction than wood etc for the bearing block. I am going to just take the HL50 for the next outing. Flashlights are great inside the house during blackouts but for actually doing stuff which requires both hands headlamps rule IMHO. I think they should be included within preps.

On a side note during the last week long blackouts from Irene, Sandy and remember a freak Halloween storm that took out power for some days I never ran through even one set of batteries. During the last storm which went out to sea I found myself charging USB power packs, NiMH and 18650 batteries. I wonder if the battery supermarket rush/cleanout will one day be a thing of the past.


----------



## Thunderchief (Oct 21, 2015)

I was reading this thread and enjoyed the answers to the main question. *However, I do do something that most people don't think about doing.* First the "*Who*" am I. I have been collecting survival gear for over 30+ years now. My interest extends deeply towards "Aircrew Survival: Kits, Components, and their usage under very austere conditions". "*What*", historically, my interests have been from the Vietnam War to Modern Day and therefore this is what I test to see if these components work. I also, see if their is anything in the market that can do the same job more efficiently. Yes, I still pack an SRU-21/P, SV-2(B), SRU-18, SRU-16, etc., etc, as my "Survival Kit". The "*Why* and *When*". If I am going to survive anywhere I need to gain knowledge on how to do it and to see if the gear I have really works as advertised. NOTE: See YouTube for some examples. Fortunately, I live in Northeastern Ohio. We can and have in the past (My lifetime) seen extreme temperature variations and weather. Anybody who has lived here knows this. Can I get an AMEN? If we get 3-4 days in a row with Sunny skies and moderate temperatures, people hear get all google-eyed and bring out shorts and "wife-beater-T shirts". I know, my career in Law Enforcement has many examples. Also, we are in one of those 3-4 days right now. Anyhow, I should also be prepared to do anything with an injury, thus my answer to doing things the way I do them.

When I teach survival to people I tell them that "Common Sense" is NOT SO COMMON anymore and that there are reasons for this, some of which we cannot be blamed for...possibly? For example: I get into a lot of debating with academia over the issue of whether Human Beings have any "Instincts". I say we don't and never had any. The Animal Kingdom does. Think carefully about it for a day or so and then tell me what "instincts" we do have. Also, a lot of us were not raised back in the earlier part of the last century or back in the 1800's. We today, have to read about on how to be "self-sufficient" again like our fore-fathers. Note here...Buy books in printed form, not in computer generated form. That way you have something to look up and read when the grid goes down with your candle. Back to the issue. During times of disasters, small, medium, or large we can be injured in some way, shape, or form. Most of the time the injury will be to our limbs and/or head. Now, I state this peacefully and I am not picking on "Woods Walker". Sorry man, I am not trying to snipe at you for any reason other than you were just "there". If you are out in a survival situation that "Satan" has placed you in and I mean like RIGHT NOW and you have an injury to an arm and you need warmth NOW, using the "Bow and Drill" method is not going to cut it and you will die trying to use that method. Hence, my final statement. *Make sure that whatever "SURVIVAL" Gear you choose to depend your life on, will be able to work for you RIGHT NOW and ESPECIALLY when you are INJURED!

Final Thoughts:
* 1) Calories out equal calories in.
2) Most everything in Life and in this Universe takes the path of least resistance.
3) Garbage in equals garbage out.
4) One, usually equals to nothing and two equals one. Repeat as necessary and weight constraints are not violated.
5) Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. 

Sorry for the long-winded response, please forgive me.


----------



## MrJino (Oct 21, 2015)

If all else fails, I'd try to head to my mom's place, she has a massive solar array on her propery, 3 cars could park under it.

If that isn't possible, as it's a 45 mile trip. I have my own 15 watt solar panel, several battery banks around 16000 mah, and usb chargers that charge aaa to 18650 and above.

I'd be good on light too.
Qr beta
Ready made
And cheap wind up usb lantern for camping.
As for water, i do have a berkey water filtration system, military grade. And luckily there's plenty of small game where I live. Trapping them is another story..


----------



## sidecross (Oct 21, 2015)

I did a quick read of this thread so I might have missed that no comment was made about sanitation and biological waste.


----------



## FRITZHID (Oct 21, 2015)

http://m.instructables.com/id/Lemon-Batteries-Lighting-an-LED-with-Lemons/


----------



## Poppy (Oct 21, 2015)

sidecross said:


> I did a quick read of this thread so I might have missed that no comment was made about sanitation and biological waste.


Our Friend Sub_Umbra and his wife endured Katrina when many if not most left New Orleans. His telling of his tale is epic, and is interesting reading for anyone who is interested in surviving catastrophes in place. 


Sub_Umbra said:


> There's another reason to have a rock solid supply of safe water that I've never read about anywhere. It is kind of counterintuitive. Whenever we hear Public Service Announcements about preparedness it's always the same old drumbeeat -- water, water, water! If we do our own research on emergencies the first and loudest topic will always be water. Of course, there ar *very good reasons* for always bringing water to the top of your preparedness agenda, but bear with me for a bit.
> 
> Amazingly, most people don't do _anything_ (or very, very little) to prepare for the unexpected. They are in denial, for the most part, and whenever they hear _even the first few words_ about preparedness, their minds snap shut in a reflex action. Those first few words are usually about _water._ Then there's a group who has been trying to get their emergency water situation squared away, but it's tough. It may be expensive and bulky or unwieldy. Just getting it home and setting up some kind of continuing rotation schedule may be logistically challenging.


The story can be found here *An Emergency Water Epiphany *He discusses, not only water, but food, cooking, hiding, low level lights, flys, insects, sanitation, garbage, thieves, thugs, more and more.
hmmm... I might read it again


----------



## sidecross (Oct 21, 2015)

Poppy said:


> Our Friend Sub_Umbra and his wife endured Katrina when many if not most left New Orleans. His telling of his tale is epic, and is interesting reading for anyone who is interested in surviving catastrophes in place.
> 
> The story can be found here *An Emergency Water Epiphany *He discusses, not only water, but food, cooking, hiding, low level lights, flys, insects, sanitation, garbage, thieves, thugs, more and more.
> hmmm... I might read it again


Thank you Poppy for the link.

I live in an earthquake and fire danger area and have seen how an emergency can disrupt normal everyday activity. I am still surprised how many 'preprer's' seem to not mention hygiene and biological waste as a problem to be addressed. My concern for flashlights and battery back up is just one of my concerns and one of the easiest to prepare for, but it is still on along list of things to be considered and problems to be solved.


----------



## Woods Walker (Oct 21, 2015)

Thunderchief said:


> I I state this peacefully and I am not picking on "Woods Walker". Sorry man, I am not trying to snipe at you for any reason other than you were just "there". If you are out in a survival situation that "Satan" has placed you in and I mean like RIGHT NOW and you have an injury to an arm and you need warmth NOW, using the "Bow and Drill" method is not going to cut it and you will die trying to use that method. Hence, my final statement. *Make sure that whatever "SURVIVAL" Gear you choose to depend your life on, will be able to work for you RIGHT NOW and ESPECIALLY when you are INJURED!*.



Did I say a bow drill should be the only method? No. Did I say it's preferable to modern methods? No. Therefore you're not picking on me as you're not even talking about me. I will yell you'll one thing. My prefered firestarter is a ferro rod but dang, it's hard to beat a Bic lighter and here my friends is why.

This setup or something similar can be found online. An instructor offers his students a pile of items of which only a limited number can be tossed into an Altoids tin. Once their kits are assembled the students are put in canoes which are rolled. Then they must survive a night in the woods armed with only the tin full of their own choosing and the skills obtained from the instructor. Those who fancy themselves knowledgeable watching this spectacle from the safety of the internet are assured of their correct choice. They would have taken the ferro rod as well!


Say more thread after thread on message boards support this assumption. Disposable lighters are just too unreliable to be trusted. If one is packed there is an understanding that even if an inexplicable mechanical failure doesn't kill the lighter surely any contact with water would render it useless. If not water it will be the cold. If not the cold it will be dirt. The number if ways a lighter will fail are only limited by the imagination of message board posters. Those who pack lighters are doomed to die of hypothermia. Worst still their bodies will be dragged away by coyotes to suffer all manner of indignity. 


Fact or bull dung?


It rained hard for the last day or so but there was a good break in the weather. The river was flooded making fishing a no go so substituted a 6-mile day hike to cover a few hours without any responsibilities. Soon the wind picked up and the sky turned gray. No big deal, I was wearing Gortex pants plus had a poncho which can cover my pack. Just as luck would have it the rain stopped soon after putting the poncho on. I really hate that. Strapped the poncho on the pack knowing it would probably be needed again then noticed something in the mud.







Looks like a Bic lighter. Not a totally uncommon find on a popular trail.







Seems like weather and time had it's way with this Bic. Or has it? The Bic wasn't empty so maybe there was hope? 







The rain is back and this time it's here to stay. Adding injury to insult the lighter's striker wheel won't turn. It's not looking good.







Poor drainage or swamp land? It doesn't matter. Standing water is what I am looking for.







Only one thing left to do which is the very same thing we are constantly told will render a lighter worthless beginning the deadly chain of events which can only end in death via exposure. Happens all the time online!







Oh yea.......







Cleared out the mud, started to flick the Bic over and over again. No spark..... then one spark..... then more sparks however despite having fuel there was no gas escaping. Worse still the rain kept on falling. Put the lighter in my hands to warm. I wondered if that lighter was under the snow pack for the entire winter? Might never know but Spring is here!







10 minutes later heard the first gurgling of gas. I thought it might be necessary to clear the port using a needle from the PSK but maybe warming the lighter helped or maybe not? After a total of 15 or so minutes the Bic was ready!







Rusty Bic lighter attempt. GO!







Well that was uneventful. A little mechanical flick and there was fire! That's really the advantage of modern firecraft methodology. Nearly instant flames. What other inexpensive firestarting equipment could be pulled from the mud after prolonged rain, washed in dirty water then instantly produce flames during rain after just 15 or so minutes. Granted a flame doesn't equal sustained fire. Granted I am sure there are people reading this who could do the same with a firesteel and natural tinder in like circumstances but remember this is the dreaded disposable lighter responsible for failure and death the world over.


Still hiking. Even this little brook has some good water.







Risking blindness I kept playing with it.







Yup I am tossing this Bic inside a plastic bag to keep it dry. LOL! 







Going to use it on future outings. Once the fuel is spent I will convert the lighter into a DIY Spark-Lite. I have used just the sparks from a lighter to ignite items from a FAK or certain natural tinders. Most lighters I found at the very least still produced a spark. Even a dead lighter can have a second life.


The rain picked up during the last few miles.







What's the moral of this story? 


1. Don't let some goofy goober online tell you disposable lighters aren't reliable?


2. Don't only carry a lighter because another goofy goober online says they can be reliable?


Am I saying a Bic lighter is better than a firesteel? No, it's not really about this vs. that. I am no master of anything so maybe it is what it is. I think packing at least 3 ways to start a fire is a good idea. I think practice doesn't make perfect but can result in improvement and retention of skills.


Thank for looking.


----------



## Woods Walker (Oct 21, 2015)

On the topic of flashlights for preps I prefer the following.





1. Olight T10 2008 (updated for that time verson)

Why? Ok it's XR-E and old but it works. Yup actually working matters. Not only does it work but it's well made. But most of all it takes one AA battery. I don't need to worry about mixing or matching them. Also it can take AAA with a simple adapter and using a T-15 body a CR123. Multi battery capable without messing around with tin foil or whatever. So after some field use it was retired to the INGH bag but retirement means it's proven to actually work and as stated that really means something.

2. Quark.

XP-G G2. For all of the above reasons. It gets used in my backwoods brawler blowout little FAK. Still in active use. I really will miss the Quarks.

3. Surefire G2Z.

It started life with a plastic bezel and P60 incan. Then moved to a P60L. Then M60L. Then M61NL with XP-G G2 NW. WHY? Because it works and I mean really works. That really means something (anyone see a trend). Through every blackout and crazy storm warning that light has been there. 

I also like headlamps but that's another matter. Anyone notice the funky paracord on two of those lights? Smaller kit likes to vanish, small black kit more so.


----------



## sidecross (Oct 21, 2015)

Wood Walker is a good example that the best tool for 'prepping' is a good and creative mind that can work under stress.


----------



## Dr. Tweedbucket (Oct 21, 2015)

I'd whip out my Cobra CB good buddy and that's a big 10-4.

Lighting wise, I have candles and lots of low power lights enough to see at night and last a while.... I need more lithium batteries, maybe I should stock up.

Actually, I think a solar flare will do more damage than just wipe out the power grids, I think all our electronics boards and hard drives would be toast.


----------



## Poppy (Oct 22, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> Did I say a bow drill should be the only method? No. Did I say it's preferable to modern methods? No. Therefore you're not picking on me as you're not even talking about me. I will yell you'll one thing. My prefered firestarter is a ferro rod but dang, it's hard to beat a Bic lighter and here my friends is why.
> 
> This setup or something similar can be found online. An instructor offers his students a pile of items of which only a limited number can be tossed into an Altoids tin. Once their kits are assembled the students are put in canoes which are rolled. Then they must survive a night in the woods armed with only the tin full of their own choosing and the skills obtained from the instructor. Those who fancy themselves knowledgeable watching this spectacle from the safety of the internet are assured of their correct choice. They would have taken the ferro rod as well!
> 
> ...


Woodswalker,
If pictures are worth a thousand words, you just wrote a book! 
I love your pictorial stories. :thumbsup:

I put together one of those altoid tins that included vaselined cotton, with some magnesium shavings mixed in, and put into sealed plastic straws, a mini bic lighter, and fire-steel for fire. I am currently eating altoids so that I have another tin, so that I can put together a pair of them with/for my grandkids.


----------



## Woods Walker (Oct 22, 2015)

Poppy said:


> Woodswalker,
> If pictures are worth a thousand words, you just wrote a book!
> I love your pictorial stories. :thumbsup:
> 
> I put together one of those altoid tins that included vaselined cotton, with some magnesium shavings mixed in, and put into sealed plastic straws, a mini bic lighter, and fire-steel for fire. I am currently eating altoids so that I have another tin, so that I can put together a pair of them with/for my grandkids.



Thanks brother. Altoids PSK kits are fun. Took mine out yesterday.














Something to nibble on.









Wild carrot ID. Among other things hair on the stalk.





Ok now the kit.





The swiss thing is a coin cell light. I am thinking about replacing that with something but not sure what. If anyone has any ideas would like to hear them.


----------



## markr6 (Oct 22, 2015)

^ I carry a Photon Micro Light II in my first aid kit. I like that it has a tiny switch in case you need to keep it on without squeezing it. Tiny and lightweight, but decent output for a backup.


----------



## Woods Walker (Oct 22, 2015)

markr6 said:


> ^ I carry a Photon Micro Light II in my first aid kit. I like that it has a tiny switch in case you need to keep it on without squeezing it. Tiny and lightweight, but decent output for a backup.



I was thinking about that. This one can click on so don't need to squeeze it but on the down side I worry about accidental activation which hasn't happened yet. Also have Inova, PT amber coin cell light but just not totally happy with any of them.


----------



## Woods Walker (Oct 22, 2015)

sidecross said:


> Wood Walker is a good example that the best tool for 'prepping' is a good and creative mind that can work under stress.



Thanks for the vote of confidence but I am a goofy goober. LOL!


----------



## Poppy (Oct 22, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> Thanks brother. Altoids PSK kits are fun. Took mine out yesterday.
> 
> The swiss thing is a coin cell light. I am thinking about replacing that with something but not sure what. If anyone has any ideas would like to hear them.


I'd be interested to see a breakdown of what you have in there.

I'll get some pictures of mine online too.


----------



## 1DaveN (Oct 22, 2015)

Haha I thought the Swiss thing was a bottle opener - I have one that looks a lot like that. I wouldn't think you'd need a bottle opener in a survival kit, since there are so many good ways to open bottles without one, and in a survival situation, you'd probably have cans anyway


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 22, 2015)

Is that an old style whistle with balls or the new ball-less style (i.e. like a Fox40?). The ball-less style are more reliable. They always whistle.


----------



## Woods Walker (Oct 22, 2015)

Poppy said:


> I'd be interested to see a breakdown of what you have in there.
> 
> I'll get some pictures of mine online too.



I am doing a foraging outing so won't be back for a day or so but will post a breakdown ASAP.


----------



## Woods Walker (Oct 22, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> Is that an old style whistle with balls or the new ball-less style (i.e. like a Fox40?). The ball-less style are more reliable. They always whistle.



It's the old whistle that I believe is from England. I have a bunch of whistles and even the sternum strap buckle of that (plus other) packs I own have built in ball-less whistles and agree but just nostalgic about that one.


----------



## broadgage (Oct 22, 2015)

As regards lighting I would be fine for several years, however as other post, any general and prolonged loss of grid power would result in very serious shortages of water, food, fuel, and probably a general breakdown of law and order. Lighting might be the least of ones problems.

However confining the discussion to lighting, I would be equipped for some years.
Considering just one type of light and battery, I have home made room or area lights that light a room brightly. 6D cells give 100 hours service, 20 sets of spares gives 2,000 hours bright light. That is 2 or 3 hours a night for a couple of years. 120 D cells used in 2 years for area lighting.

For pocket sized lights I have a number of 2 AA minimags. In daily but fairly short term use, I would expect a pair of AA cells to last a couple of weeks, or say about 100 cells in total to last the 2 years.

A 6D maglight is a handy thing to have, but with the pocket lights and the area lighting it might not see that much use, 6D cells would give 100 hours service, or a year at 2 hours a week. 12 D cells should last the 2 years.

Some much dimmer lights will be needed, possibly all night. I have home made extreme run time lights that use 3 D cells and run for about 5,000 hours on one set of cells, so 2 such lights run all night, every night, for 2 years would use 12 D cells.

Just using the above, in two years I would consume 144 D cells (200 stocked) and about 100 AA cells (200 stocked) And that is without ANY use of the 6 volt lanterns (8 batteries stocked, each should give a few dozens hours service) Bardic lamps, use special batteries, I keep about 6 to hand for perhaps another couple of hundred hours run time.

In practice I would conserve alkaline batteries by use of a solar charged 12 volt deep cycle battery for room lighting.

If all else fails I have a few thousand candles, and enough lamp oil for thousands of hours use.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 23, 2015)

Top notch posts, everyone! 

I'm in the middle of a very short vacation trip, but would like to post pics of my tin kit, bic lighter to spark light mod and flint replacement.

The key is me remembering this thread once I get back. 

Since it's not been mentioned yet this thread, as far as super-long-term outage any my ultimate battery backup? Pak-Lite super 2 mode for the insanely long runtimes on low. 1 year of continuous output per Energizer Ultimate Lithium battery. This makes the math super simple. 1 battery = 1 year of not having to turn off your flashlight. 

Personally, I wouldn't burn incandescent during a TEOTWAWKI but I can't guarantee that the event we're discussing would leave semiconductor tech intact if it's fried the power grid.

Since the power grid is a massive, massive antenna with super long lines I could see that frying very easily. Fry the LED pak-lite inside a metal tin? That's going to take some zap.

The length of wires involved are crucial in whether or not something fries, the leads for the Pak-lite have to be some of the shortest in the business.


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 23, 2015)

-----


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 24, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> My vote for best recommendation in this thread was "books". A would say a good survival book, and a good first aid book



Which would be..?


----------



## Tixx (Oct 24, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> The swiss thing is a coin cell light. I am thinking about replacing that with something but not sure what. If anyone has any ideas would like to hear them.



Photon/Photon Freedom. Smaller and more versatile. Cool thread BTW!


----------



## bykfixer (Oct 25, 2015)

Fishing pole; check
Hand saw; check
Hand crank flashlight(s); check
Nearby stream; check
Lots of flints: check
Nearby woods; check
Charcoal grill; check

Other stuff; check


Thomas Jeffersons generation did just fine without electricity.
So can we.


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 25, 2015)

Lots of cool stuff to respond to. I'll save some you some rants and skip to one point. *The Bic lighter is the best fire making tool in the world bar none.* Cold? Soaking wet? Blow it out and stick it in your arm pit. 5 minutes later you have flames ( sans EXTREME temps ). The only 2 likely scenarios a half beaten up Bic wouldn't be superior is high altitude and longevity. The second is more a question of how many licks it takes to get to a tootsie roll pop. I once used a Bic for 3 months straight 20 times a day and it was still gong strong before someone finally snatched it. Throw a 4 pack in your preps and I'd bet you the chances of you needing anything more in your lifetime are slim to none. No. I do not know how many years they store for. But I would guess the shelf life is on par with lithium batteries. Out of hundreds, I have yet to see one fail that already wasn't broken in some way to begin with. I did have one POOF on a 100+F day that was sitting on a diamond plate tool box where it essentially was likely in upwards of 180F on a reflective surface. Store in a shady dry place. Stay off Mount Everest.


BIC FTW.


----------



## bykfixer (Oct 25, 2015)

I have a 'bic lighter' collection with varying covers like James Bond movies, various rock bands, various American flag themes etc...displayed on a shelf.

After a few years the flints went soft and disintigrated when trying to 'get a light' from any of them. 
Now each was purchased as singles as in did not come sealed. 

Yet ones I pull out of drawers after years of storage spark just fine...just sayin'.

And with a good pair of reading glasses you can 'operate' on a Bic and replace the flint...just don't drink coffee before attempting. 
Steady hands and mucho patience are required.


----------



## FensterKarton (Oct 25, 2015)

you need a source of power. Photovoltaics have come way down in price. 60 cents a watt can be found, monocrystalline or poly.

Fire for light is ridiculous. People still use kerosene lamps when we now have LED lights. Lithium or NiMH and a panel(s) and you are good to go.

For example http://www.beawindhog.com/solar-panels.html says 
Solar Panels as low as 59 cents a watt!
We sell monocrystaline and polycrystaline panels. 25 - 400​ ​watt capacities.​


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 25, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> Now each was purchased as singles as in did not come sealed.
> 
> Yet ones I pull out of drawers after years of storage spark just fine...just sayin'.



Ahhh... forgot about the disintegrating flints. I also believe I read about this on flint rods once the original "sealant" layer is scrapped off, same on Zippo's, they have a light coat of something to keep them fresh.

Im thinking the ones purchased individually....... I noticed these _sometimes_ appear to be new old stock.... You can usually tell by the dust they were purchased years ago and pulled from the back at your local eleven of seven. Who knows the storage conditions? Possibly pulled from the cold room? Moisture? Did the owner get a deal on 1,000 pieces 5 years ago? I say this as I have purchased singles as well that just felt overall brittle and old..... I also once bought a coke and it was "best by" 2005....it was 2010....

The sealed ones in the checkout lane at Tarjay seem to be more up to snuff and fresh. Usually a 4 pack can be had around 5 bucks. Not a bad investment on some fresh stock.

@ Frenster - Obviously fire on a stick wouldn't be the ideal lighting setup, but I assume fire very likely contributed to some of the most best selling, oldest books on the planet. The "Art of the deal." was likely Trumped, by an insanely large margin by the Bible. Unless they were only written / scribed in the daylight.... which I assume wasn't always the case. Also the oil lamp as MoreVampires pointed out was of tremendous value and I believe predates the candle by a wide margin. I would much prefer a cool solar setup as you recommended and was more in spirit of the thread.... but now switching gears a bit and looking at it from a historic point of view...if we are still here, fire will be, guaranteed.


----------



## bykfixer (Oct 25, 2015)

FensterKarton said:


> you need a source of power. Photovoltaics have come way down in price. 60 cents a watt can be found, monocrystalline or poly.
> 
> Fire for light is ridiculous. People still use kerosene lamps when we now have LED lights. Lithium or NiMH and a panel(s) and you are good to go.
> 
> ...




^^ I have neighbors like this...

some of the 1st to go...lol
Eh, j/k sir

Dried grass clippings, pine needles...that sorta thing and flints...yeah a Bic is great when it has fuel...but we're talking appocalypse here....

Only thing I haven't figured out? Toilet paper. 

Confuscious say man who go bed with itchy butt wake up with stinky finguh!
What would George Washington do?


----------



## FensterKarton (Oct 25, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> ^^ I have neighbors like this...
> 
> some of the 1st to go...lol
> Eh, j/k sir
> ...



If you want to stumble around in the dark then don't bother with rechargeables and Bics and just rub 2 sticks together. Just 1 or 2 watts makes an incredible difference.
When you quit eating packaged food you wont need paper. Or 1 wipe at most. Eat modern factory food and you will need half a roll.


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 26, 2015)

FensterKarton said:


> Eat modern factory food and you will need half a roll.



This man speaks the truth.


----------



## bykfixer (Oct 26, 2015)

Yeah I here ya on the packaged food thing. 

I meant for the wife...they use a lot of toilet paper.

When I was single a 24 pack lasted me a year. Now...6 weeks?


----------



## Poppy (Oct 26, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> Only thing I haven't figured out? Toilet paper.
> 
> Confuscious say man who go bed with itchy butt wake up with stinky finguh!
> What would George Washington do?


idk what GW did, but I read that the Romans used a bucket of water, and a sponge on a stick. Yuk! the thought of sharing that sponge gives me shivers  :sick2:


----------



## FensterKarton (Oct 26, 2015)

there is a washable/reusable kotex called Lillypad.
as for tp soft cloth you can wash and reuse.
I find abandoning all technology too rough. You need to cover essentials like fire, weapons, clothing and repair, shoes etc.
As Long John Silver said "Them as dies is the lucky ones".


----------



## FensterKarton (Oct 26, 2015)

they would sit 6- 12 in a communal toilet and a bucket of water washed the sluice. Not my lifestyle.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Oct 26, 2015)

Would warping your unused electrical gadgets in an single layer of aluminum foil protect them from emp.

John.


----------



## Poppy (Oct 26, 2015)

John,
Last year, I guess, I read through one of these threads on EMP, and I put my 3AA transistor radio into a paper/cardboard sleeve, and placed it into one of those anti-static mylar bags that some electronic components come in (like a new hard drive). Later I bought something else that came wrapped in a mylar bag, and I put that around it too. It is the only piece of equipment that I purposefully tried to protect from EMP. I must have thought that would work after reading so much controversy on the subject. Certainly it won't hurt. :shrug:

EDIT: The paper/cardboard sleeve was to insulate the radio from the mylar (I guess in case it gets energized?)


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Oct 26, 2015)

You know I am going to be very disappointed if all my preparedness go for nothing and no emergency ever happens , we don't have earthquakes or tornados in the UK, a few blow down trees and a bit of flooding during a storm is all we get 

I just bought a couple of the energizer 3in1 torch lanterns and I dug out my 4AA solar battery charger for battery's 


John


----------



## Poppy (Oct 26, 2015)

I very much like those energizer "with light fusion technology" lanterns. I have one pop-up and two folding ones. The only thing is that they take so many darn AA batteries. I'd prefer that they run on one, two or three 18650 batteries.


----------



## mryang (Oct 26, 2015)

Massive Solar Flare EMP immobilizing the continental US for 12 months? A light will be the least of any mans concerns.

1. Cities will be in habitable after 2 weeks as social chaos is a full blown war zone - meaning +150 million refugees will seek shelter with force if necessary.

2. After 4 weeks it will be a total annihilation war that will be akin to a zombie apocalypse (because of the reliance of violence in combination of fear and stupidity / egoism)

3. Some clever people stayed deep into forest and knows bushcraft. They have boots, knife and a sleeping bag and stay far from trigger happy egomaniacs.

Just pray it's not going to happen because it will basically be the end of the civil world as u know it.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 26, 2015)

The solar flare will be a complete breakdown as life as we know it exists today. Think about no elecreicity for even a few months, they are predicting years, or longer, a 100 year depression.

In my job covering politics, I have been to a few meetings, with the highest, and I mean higest of officials. They are horrified of a major horrific earthquake which could wipe out a huge, and massive area of Southern Calif. So much that they estimate Katrina would be like a shopping cart hitting your car compared to a rollover 5 times at 100 miles per hour, yeah, it's that bad. 

The damage would exceed hundreds of trillions of dollars, and cause a national security risk, the largest in history, again a recovery in the decades, generations in the future would be felt hard by this. At this meeting, I was the official photographer for the Governor of the state of California. As this meeting was in Calif. After getting my shots I stood against the wall, and some senator said, remember to have two weeks of medicine on hand, even for a minor quake.

Being an injured person for life, and on medicine, I did a terrible breach of protocol, and walked to the table and said, 'excuse me ladies and gentlemen, I know this is highly irregular for me to address you but, the DEA, will never allow any Dr. to write an emergency RX of Sch.II RX, it can't happen. The hoarding of drugs is also illegal.

The Governor looked at me without blinking, I thought well I blew a nice gig, and then some one yelled dear God he's correct on this, why has this not been discussed before? So if the big, big one hits, or the sun flares bad, welcome to 1800.

After the meeting, I was thanked by my many top leaders, the Chairman of the JCS said, 'Son that took quite a bit on your part, and you did the right thing, thank you.'

This is serious, and all the things we use today that are electronic will be useless, no cell phones, tablets or internet and water depends on electricity for pumping. No food deliveries, no gas, no medication, no, transportation, no protection on and on. Don't worry about martial law, that will be in place for about 10 days before the military in the disaster zone falls apart as it will be so massive it would fail, and that came from the people In that meeting. You could never control that many millions desperate people looking for anything. 

None of this is good, and it is no conspiracy just a couple of natural disasters that occur with some kind of frequency. The preppers will never out last anything like this. When we fall, like this the rest of the world will collapse with the fall of global currency and many other things have the ability to cause major problems everywhere.

The earthquake, as bad as it will be will at least allow for some cell and internet use at some point, but if you have no food?

This is scary and something to be ready for, mentally, not people storing canned goods in a bunker. I remember my family in the 1960's laughing at the, they weren't called prepper's then but, the fools with bunkers, like you would come up to any world you could ever live in for tens of thousands of years, after a full scale attack from our old friends the Soviet Union. 

Honestly, I don't care if either happen, it could be an experience - no would be an experience.


----------



## sidecross (Oct 26, 2015)

RedLed said:


> The solar flare will be a complete breakdown as life as we know it exists today. Think about no elecreicity for even a few months, they are predicting years, or longer, a 100 year depression.
> 
> In my job covering politics, I have been to a few meetings, with the highest, and I mean higest of officials. They are horrified of a major horrific earthquake which could wipe out a huge, and massive area of southern Calif. So much that they estimate Katrina would be like a shopping cart hitting your car compared to a rollover 5 times at 100 miles per hour, yeah, it's that bad.
> 
> ...




There is a limit to the concept of 'Prepping' and the the above description of what could happen is accurate.

If any event would cause a disruption longer than 10 to 14 days we would all be hard pressed to cope and that would include 'Preppers' who would have to confront being a witness to those who were not be prepared of which many would be without because of poverty or bad health.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 26, 2015)

Most of these posts are for the short term, when an EMP ruins the pumps that move water around, it's over. One thing if it survives is the LA Aqua duct, opened in 1913, by Wm. Mulholland. It flows water from the Owens valley by gravity and siphons that pull, and push the water on its own, no electricity. Still in use today its terminus is Sylmar, Calif.

Still it may not survive and it would never supply the water LA needs, this stuff is scary. Prepping is for a short period, nothing like could be coming. You can't Prep for decades. Even NORAD can't survive for decades! and you would come out if these bunkers with your mind gone. You would crack up in a place like that, in any prepper, or Govt. Bunker. With one exception, if Bill Clinton made it he would still want to be president.


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 26, 2015)

All very interesting points. I too have wondered about peoples longer term medication needs with the current laws. Also to note, I agree that some, if not the vast majority of "preppers" are unknowingly living a fantasy and would be fairly unequipped and uneducated in a planet alternating event or any long term event for that matter. However, I do believe that there are a few that realize that actual "prepps" are fairly low on the must have list. Knowledge, training and experience would be invaluable and I do think there are people out there that understand the true meaning of prepping isn't limited, or even really defined by what we can stock but rather what they can learn and practice _now_ to give one the best chances with relying on as little as possible. 

Like the movie Everest, "Attitude not altitude" ( when people are trying to learn to breath on essential no oxygen. )

Have a plan, build relationships, and learn and practice as much as possible when it comes to surviving on and acquiring the most bare essentials. Calories in calories out.

Thats all really one can do.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Oct 26, 2015)

In the UK, there is so many people per square mile, I always though immigration should not be allowed beyond that level at which you are able to live off the land (grow your own food) without having to import food to avoid mass starvation, during WW2 people were growing food in their own garden`s, and are population was a lot lower than it is now. (Eat Me) as Bart Simpson says might actually happen.

John.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 27, 2015)

Real prepper's know how to live off the land in the wilderness, not some reality show plastic bunker, fill it with Spam. If you can live off the open land, you're good, because that is not hiding in a bunker, but that is not easy as no one has done very much of that, living off the land since the industrial revolution.

This is why history is one of the most important subjects you can take. If you live in central London, and I used to live there as me dear old dad was from there...forgetaboutit! If the Sun goes crazy...and it will it will be a total nightmares as every city in the world will implode. Anyone who thinks a solar flare of a huge magnitude will happen and we will rebuild our modern life in a few years better see a team is Physicists, in Vienna, all with long white coats and clipboards. 

You won't see all the childish happy the world is wonderful logos of the social media companies and crowd, like utopia is just about here, are in for a sinking disappointment in less than a few hours. Eric Schmidt, and Mark Zuckerberg will be no better off than anyone else. 

But, look at the bright side...Apple Geniuses, and Starbucks will all be gone. Even the Starbucks that have Starbucks inside Starbucks will be abandoned. 

If you are smart, it may be a much better place than what we have now. Who knows?


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 27, 2015)

RedLed said:


> But, look at the bright side...Apple Geniuses, and Starbucks will all be gone. Even the Starbucks that have Starbucks inside Starbucks will be abandoned.



Truly terrifying; we need to begin stockpiling iOS devices and frappuccino mix immediately..


----------



## FRITZHID (Oct 27, 2015)

Pmsl!!!
"Some say the end is near. Some say we'll see Armageddon soon. I certainly hope we will. I sure could use a vacation from this B.S., 3 ring, circus side show!"


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Oct 27, 2015)

I got a top score on the zombie apocalypse survivability quiz, that must count for something.

So are there organization that are store human knowledge in a bunker or something in case the worst happens (well not quite the worst or it would be pointless) I would be willing to donate my P**N collection for the enlightenment future generation. 

John.


----------



## FensterKarton (Oct 27, 2015)

http://www.rexresearch.com/krummenacher/krummenacher.html
good to -30 C with only body heat.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 27, 2015)

I lost my cell phone, looked every where, I knew it had not left the property, I called it and called it. My wife asked If I left it in the big safe, no I told her. Well that is where it was. That may survive an EMP, but if every cell tower and others phones are ruined, I guess I could look at photos. 

If if you don't want to be tracked even if your phone is off you can be tracked go to a camera store and get some black foil, it is like 5X thicker than kitchen foil, I have wrapped my phone in it a few times in that and viola, no signal. We use black foil in lighting to hide things. Hides your signal too. 

You never know when you want some privacy.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 27, 2015)

Do you think the nuclear ICBM missiles could launch? I do, silos were designed to survive EMPS, and the ones carried aboard nuclear submarines could. That is why I said this is a national security nightmare, but with comm systems gone it would be up to the missile command guys in the silos and the captain and XO of a nuclear submarine launch 'em.

The sun EMP and full scale nuclear war what a week. I'll just sit back and take it all in. Best of all no cable news commentator with all the wrong answers!

Really, I think there is a good chance an EMP could cause this, easy! Worst case is you go to 11,000,000 degrees in one second.

Thing is we may win, it is a good chance the old Soviet system missiles don't even work anymore after of 30 years, plus they could never hit the targets even in the hey day of the Cold War.

I am certain they don't function. So don't worry too much about that. Another meeting I covered was by a high ranking Russian official, who told the State dept. group, "Nothing works in Russia." Low level meeting but I believe it. 

And I am not bashing Russia, I have been there on photo jobs, and in high school I had the hottest girlfriend and she was from Russia, long jet black hair, and everything else, well, you know, wonderful girl. Very well,mannered, and smart. Hated the Soviet system. Not sure how she got here but at that age who even cares. And my mom loved her which was rare. Remember, this was the golden age of the Cold War. The other boys were afraid of her, what fools. Lots of beautiful women in Russia. Just an observation, my wife is from Mexico.

Just go about your business and be good to people, wether it happens or not.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove (Oct 27, 2015)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> In the UK, there is so many people per square mile, I always though immigration should not be allowed beyond that level at which you are able to live off the land (grow your own food) without having to import food to avoid mass starvation, during WW2 people were growing food in their own garden`s, and are population was a lot lower than it is now. (Eat Me) as Bart Simpson says might actually happen.
> 
> John.



Don't worry, because "Soylent Green is made of ... people!"


----------



## RedLED (Oct 27, 2015)

FRITZHID said:


> Pmsl!!!
> "Some say the end is near. Some say we'll see Armageddon soon. I certainly hope we will. I sure could use a vacation from this B.S., 3 ring, circus side show!"



Dude, 

it is EMS, PMS is much worse to survive but, that was worth the laugh I got from it...thanks!


----------



## RedLED (Oct 27, 2015)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> Don't worry, because "Soylent Green is made of ... people!"




"There will always be an England," so you are all safe. With apologies to Vera Lynn.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 27, 2015)

StarHalo said:


> Gonna want some way to keep that beer cold..


Super Star Halo, you have to know something that can save us, beer is a good start! 

And OT, when do you publish your Christmas list of gifts. And in which area of the forum?


----------



## Poppy (Oct 27, 2015)

IF there is a huge solar flare, does if envelope the entire planet, or just the side that is facing it?


----------



## bykfixer (Oct 27, 2015)

RedLed said:


> The solar flare will be a complete breakdown as life as we know it exists today. Think about no elecreicity for even a few months, they are predicting years, or longer, a 100 year depression.
> 
> In my job covering politics, I have been to a few meetings, with the highest, and I mean higest of officials. They are horrified of a major horrific earthquake which could wipe out a huge, and massive area of Southern Calif. So much that they estimate Katrina would be like a shopping cart hitting your car compared to a rollover 5 times at 100 miles per hour, yeah, it's that bad.
> 
> ...



It's nice to know our government cares...
Yep, no need to prep...they're on it
They got this...we're good.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 27, 2015)

Poppy said:


> IF there is a huge solar flare, does if envelope the entire planet, or just the side that is facing it?


AFAIK, it will affect world wide. The dark side of Earth will have less effect, but it'll still be there.


----------



## Parrot Quack (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm running out of gas to the generator......how long does this drill last? 

.....well, there goes the generator. 

Doesn't it take four days for the flare to hit the Earth? No electricity, no damage? Can't the system be shut down before the solar flare hits?


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 27, 2015)

> No electricity, no damage? Can't the system be shut down before the solar flare hits?


The problem: The longer the wire, the longer the "antenna" to catch the energy. The power grid is nothing but one gigantic antenna array and it's going to be toast if we have a another 1800's solar storm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859


> The *solar storm of 1859*, also known as the *Carrington event*,[1]​ was a powerful geomagnetic solar storm in 1859 during solar cycle 10. A solar coronal mass ejection hit Earth's magnetosphere and induced one of the largest geomagnetic storms on record. The associated "white light flare" in the solar photosphere was observed and recorded by English astronomers Richard C. Carrington and Richard Hodgson.
> 
> Studies have shown that a solar storm of this magnitude occurring today would likely cause widespread problems for modern civilization.[2]​ The solar storm of 2012 was of similar magnitude, but it passed Earth's orbit without striking the planet.[3]​





> On September 1–2, 1859, one of the largest recorded geomagnetic storms (as recorded by ground-based magnetometers) occurred. Aurorae were seen around the world, those in the northern hemisphere as far south as the Caribbean; those over the Rocky Mountains in the US were so bright that their glow awoke gold miners, who began preparing breakfast because they thought it was morning.[5]​ People in the northeastern US could read a newspaper by the aurora's light.[7]​ The aurora was visible as far from the poles as Sub-Saharan Africa (Senegal, Mauritania, perhaps Monrovia, Liberia), Monterrey and Tampico in Mexico, Queensland, Cuba and Hawaii.[8]​
> 
> *Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases giving telegraph operators electric shocks.[9]​ Telegraph pylons threw sparks.[10]​ Some telegraph operators could continue to send and receive messages despite having disconnected their power supplies.*[11]​



You can't tell me that this won't 100% wreck power grids worldwide. It's gonna be nasty, it's just a matter of time.

"Well I turned around and I said "Oh, oh" Oh
Well I turned around and I said "Ho, Ho"
And the northern lights commenced to glow
And she said, with a tear in her eye..."
--Frank Zappa


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Oct 27, 2015)

I think i read a few moths ago, the US relies on approx 15 massive power transformers and it was said if terrorists were to damage or destroy them, it would take 18 months plus to replace them as they are made in Germany by Siemens and they weight like 300+ tons each, my nephew is an Siemens power transformer engineer, though he did not tell me any of this, though he has some interspersing photo`s

EDIT: I thnk i remember the terrorists were trying to shoot the ceramic insulators to cause a power short or whatever you call it.

So an EMP pulse would cause a lot more damage than this to the power infrastructure, do you guy`s remember Dark Angel starring Jessica Alba (Babe), the plot terrorists explode an nuke 100miles above the US causing and EMP and reducing the US to little better than an third-world country, this is fiction so don't argue the facts.

John.


----------



## Parrot Quack (Oct 27, 2015)

And if the system was shutdown and breaks in the wiring were made, the power would have no place to go but harmlessly around in circles.

I'm in the mountains so water isn't a problem. Short of a couple weeks of gas and food, our local system would be toast. I'm not arguing as I'm simply asking, what happens if the circuit wires are cut and everybody hangs out until the flare goes past Earth on it's way to Mars? In my way of thinking, the good citizens of Earth could live without an active modern electrical system for a day or three. How about Faraday cages?


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 27, 2015)

Hmmm, ANY long wire will have a potential on it under these circumstances. Remember, telegraph operators were disconnecting their power supplies and the telegraph lines were more or less generating their own juice. They were grounding the line to send messages.

Now that I think about it, maybe that would be better than burning fossil fuels if we could beef up the grid to ACCEPT power such as this instead of fry from it.


----------



## bykfixer (Oct 27, 2015)

Parrot Quack said:


> I'm running out of gas to the generator......how long does this drill last?
> 
> .....well, there goes the generator.
> 
> Doesn't it take four days for the flare to hit the Earth? No electricity, no damage? Can't the system be shut down before the solar flare hits?




This was a bad one to read with a busted rib.
But worth the pain...laughter bred good pain.

Thanks. Lol (ouch)


----------



## FensterKarton (Oct 27, 2015)

even shut off, which you really can't do, you would have to terminate every line or watch insulators pop.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 27, 2015)

FensterKarton said:


> even shut off, which you really can't do, you would have to terminate every line or watch insulators pop.



With the short warning we'd have, it'd be virtually impossible to make it in time.


----------



## FensterKarton (Oct 27, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Hmmm, ANY long wire will have a potential on it under these circumstances. Remember, telegraph operators were disconnecting their power supplies and the telegraph lines were more or less generating their own juice. They were grounding the line to send messages.
> 
> Now that I think about it, maybe that would be better than burning fossil fuels if we could beef up the grid to ACCEPT power such as this instead of fry from it.



Distributed power always suffers from network problems. The solution is to generate at point of use. Then wars, earthquakes etc cant cause your refrigerator and heater/lights to fail. Besides, most of the energy in a fossil fuel plant goes up the chimney. Instead, if natural gas were burned in stations spaced about the city the heat could melt sidewalks and heat buildings. They melt the sidewalks in the capitol of Finland. I think that is comparable to Anchorage, Alaska northwise.


----------



## Parrot Quack (Oct 27, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> This was a bad one to read with a busted rib.
> But worth the pain...laughter bred good pain.
> 
> Thanks. Lol (ouch)



Sorry for the pain.....



FensterKarton said:


> even shut off, which you really can't do, you would have to terminate every line or watch insulators pop.



Let the insulators pop. Isn't that better than frying a whole system? Isn't shutting the system down better than frying the system? And if the wires load up, there's no need to grab them as we should have a four day warning before the flare makes it to Earth.

And yes, I'm an ignorant but I would think, spending a few days to open the line breakers would be infinitely better than frying the whole of the electric grid. I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

Wow! A thousand years in the past. The "Black Plague" should be better than the "Zombie Apocalypse." Sticking bodies in the head is like, so depraved.


----------



## 1DaveN (Oct 27, 2015)

On the subject of generating power at the point of use, this is interesting - this kid is working on a 50 MW fission reactor to power neighborhoods or small towns, powered by reclaimed nuclear weapons fuel (which is apparently no longer weapons grade, and has to be disposed of somehow anyway). If you don't want to watch the video, you can probably google up some other information about it.
http://www.ted.com/talks/taylor_wilson_my_radical_plan_for_small_nuclear_fission_reactors


----------



## bykfixer (Oct 27, 2015)

Parrot, that comment made my week sir...just didn't see it coming, so I didn't hold my side...kinda like when you have a mouth full of drink and read something funny in the paper...
Unexpected calamity, but worth it.

I ate at an all you can eat bbq buffet incase this whole thing goes down tonight...at least I got to eat pork one more time...and Boston Creme pie...boy I'm gonna miss that when the Appocalypse arrives.


----------



## Poppy (Oct 27, 2015)

RedLed said:


> The solar flare will be a complete breakdown as life as we know it exists today. Think about no elecreicity for even a few months, they are predicting years, or longer, a 100 year depression.
> 
> <BIG SNIP>


I understand that an earthquake can disrupt both above ground, and underground utilities. 
I imagine that an EMP event would affect above ground, but not below ground/underground utilities.

With that thought in mind, would natural gas still be supplied? I would hope so. This way people would still be able to boil lake water to pasteurize/sterilize it. They would still be able to cook.

I think it was on a series of discovery channel episodes, perhaps it was "the learning channel" I don't recall, but they ran a series of "how to survive a disaster." One week it was a tornado, the next a nuclear bomb., etc. During the nuclear episode, he confiscated a car from a parking lot, he stated that cars that weren't running at the time of the EMP event would not be affected, and would still start and run. He elected to confiscate a diesel because he was going to run it on cooking oil. 

If that is true, then our trucking industry would still be intact. Food could be moved to supermarkets that have natural gas supplied generators, and now, after Super storm Sandy, many gas stations have backup power generators, (well, at least here in New Jersey). 

I imagine that we'll have hyper-inflation, (the government will have to print up money to buy food, and transport it and water, en-mass, to the inner cities) and extreme unemployment.


----------



## Parrot Quack (Oct 27, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> Parrot, that comment made my week sir...



..........................:thumbsup:


----------



## RedLED (Oct 28, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> It's nice to know our government cares...
> Yep, no need to prep...they're on it
> They got this...we're good.


Dude, 

This is one time the government can't do anything, it is the physics of the sun, and the universe. No one is at fault. This one time the government is not the problem. Unless the release all the ICBMs


----------



## RedLED (Oct 28, 2015)

Poppy said:


> I understand that an earthquake can disrupt both above ground, and underground utilities.
> I imagine that an EMP event would affect above ground, but not below ground/underground utilities.
> 
> With that thought in mind, would natural gas still be supplied? I would hope so. This way people would still be able to boil lake water to pasteurize/sterilize it. They would still be able to cook.
> ...



Yes, a, but the natural gas pipelines need electricity, and the Govt. needs electricity to, print Money. Really in the modern world once electricity is gone, it's over. Just cool, it, take it easy...I would normally say it's not the end of the world but it is, except for the few can live off the land, and I mean Lewis and Clark living off the land. 

Actually, it is not the end of the world, just mankind. You know who will do OK are cats as there will be plenty of birds to eat. So cats will make it.

So, Fluff, Tuffy, Roughie, Buffy, Puffy, muffy, Duffy and McGuffy will all be just fine!


----------



## RedLED (Oct 28, 2015)

Poppy said:


> I understand that an earthquake can disrupt both above ground, and underground utilities.
> I imagine that an EMP event would affect above ground, but not below ground/underground utilities.
> 
> With that thought in mind, would natural gas still be supplied? I would hope so. This way people would still be able to boil lake water to pasteurize/sterilize it. They would still be able to cook.
> ...



Poppy, 

It just won't happen that way, in a week or there will be no one who has has their mind left, trust me this solar deal is it! 

Enjoy every moment, in case it does happen, or it could happen in 200 years, but, it will happen some day, so cool it and relax. 

The scary part of all the things that will work are nuclear missiles. The silos were build to survive a EMP, and the submarines are safe. For all we know the Joint Chiefs and the President have given a few days of no communications the instructions could be to Launch 'em all of them. Good thing is you won't feel a thing, like a week on Jack Daniels! Eleven million degrees does not hurt. 

The he thing is we could be witness to the greatest and last thing to mankind. I just want to know who is Taking care of the media, I want all access credentials to the end of civilization. The Associated Press could have a wire on the moon where we could transmit some photos. 

I mean even if you you were in NORAD, after decades you would come out completely out of your mind. 

This is a natural event of our star.

And, prepper's, it does not matter how much ammo you have when 400 people who don't care who are coming on your property, forgetaboutit! So save your money on buying all that ammo.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 28, 2015)

Study the Vandals who showed up in Ancient Rome from the area today which is now is the modern region around Poland, ancient Rome was not the place to be. Still not as bad as the flare, but they did considerable damage.

Just a taste of what to expect. If you think any gangs we have today are bad, read about the Vandals. But, a form of that mentality could return, this time with guns.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 28, 2015)

Parrot Quack said:


> Sorry for the pain.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is 8 minutes warning, not four days, that's why this is so serious


----------



## RedLED (Oct 28, 2015)

Parrot Quack said:


> Sorry for the pain.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again we will have 8 minutes. And Zap!


----------



## RedLED (Oct 28, 2015)

Parrot Quack said:


> And if the system was shutdown and breaks in the wiring were made, the power would have no place to go but harmlessly around in circles.
> 
> I'm in the mountains so water isn't a problem. Short of a couple weeks of gas and food, our local system would be toast. I'm not arguing as I'm simply asking, what happens if the circuit wires are cut and everybody hangs out until the flare goes past Earth on it's way to Mars? In my way of thinking, the good citizens of Earth could live without an active modern electrical system for a day or three. How about Faraday cages?


Water is still pumped for large amounts. 

Come down off that mountain and you will be in Utter disbelieve when you see your country in ruins, this is no joke, and it is serious. That is why I take the who cares route. It's worse than anything we have seen in history.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 28, 2015)

Poppy said:


> I understand that an earthquake can disrupt both above ground, and underground utilities.
> I imagine that an EMP event would affect above ground, but not below ground/underground utilities.
> 
> With that thought in mind, would natural gas still be supplied? I would hope so. This way people would still be able to boil lake water to pasteurize/sterilize it. They would still be able to cook.
> ...


How could the trucking industry possibly be intact with no electricity for the pumps to keep the trucks rolling, and the refineries operating. No electricity, no life as we know it, that simple.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 28, 2015)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> I think i read a few moths ago, the US relies on approx 15 massive power transformers and it was said if terrorists were to damage or destroy them, it would take 18 months plus to replace them as they are made in Germany by Siemens and they weight like 300+ tons each, my nephew is an Siemens power transformer engineer, though he did not tell me any of this, though he has some interspersing photo`s
> 
> EDIT: I thnk i remember the terrorists were trying to shoot the ceramic insulators to cause a power short or whatever you call it.
> 
> ...


Dude,

Forget third world jargon, the entire planet is going back hundreds of years in a few minutes, and when people can't get food the scene will be something completely unimaginable to most people who think, oh it is just a minor thing, when food is gone people will go oh, my Lord! And crackup into insanity.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Oct 28, 2015)

Kiss my AXE time?

John.



RedLed said:


> Dude,
> 
> Forget third world jargon, the entire planet is going back hundreds of years in a few minutes, and when people can't get food the scene will be something completely unimaginable to most people who think, oh it is just a minor thing, food Lord.


----------



## Poppy (Oct 28, 2015)

RedLed said:


> How could the trucking industry possibly be intact with no electricity for the pumps to keep the trucks rolling, and the refineries operating. No electricity, no life as we know it, that simple.


If we want to ward off murder and cannibalism, we'll have to get food and water into the cities. 
Is the scenario such that there will be NO electricity, or that the distribution system will be destroyed, and the transformers on each telephone pole will have to be replaced?

I would hope that our nuclear plants would be EMP protected, and will still be able to generate power. 
I once visited a coal fired power plant. It is my understanding power demands change hourly and seasonally. For example, during the summer months, power demands spike at 4:00 PM until 9:00 PM, or something like that, when people come home from work, to a hot house/apartment, and turn on the A/C and maybe cook with electricity. Coal fired plants can slowly increase and decrease output, but not at the rate necessary to feed the spike in demands. So... the plant has a number of jet engine powered generators that they fire up for the four hours or so at a time to supplement the main plant. I imagine that there are many of them, scattered across the country at many other power plants.

Now if in fact we still have the capacity to GENERATE electricity, but the network to distribute it from central locations is destroyed/disabled, then perhaps we could spread the generators out to points of necessity, such as water pump stations, and sewage and waste treatment plants. If natural gas needs to be pumped/pressurized, that will need to be done.

Certainly there are many diesel powered construction site generators, many whole house natural gas generators, and even more 5K portable generators. If they are not hooked into the grid at the time of the EMP, will they all be destroyed also? 

What I meant when I said that the trucking industry would still be intact, was that the roadways, and bridges would be intact. Traffic lights would not be, but that the capability of moving mass volumes of products would still be possible. Convoys of trucks carrying food, water, and fuel, could be put together. 

Truck stops on the interstate highways, with the largest fuel tank capacities can be supplied with fuel, and electricity generator/s to act as distribution centers. 

Unless the water pumping stations that supply the major cities such as NYC and Los Angeles, CA., are activated, people will HAVE to migrate to within a few miles of natural water sources, within walking distance. I doubt, that we have the tanking capacity to bring enough water into areas of 10-20 million people each day.

I really haven't given this much thought, and there is so much that I don't know, it is quite possible, that I might be completely too optimistic. Let's hope that we never find out!


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 28, 2015)

RedLed said:


> Again we will have 8 minutes. And Zap!



Again, you are wrong, we have a lot more than 8 minutes .....

The fastest coronal discharges hit the earth in 1/2 a day, those associated with large flares 1-2 days, and typically coronal discharges take 3+ days to get to the earth. Hence there is prep time.

Disconnecting transformers could certainly offer a high level of protection. The transformer damage would come from very high induced currents burning up the transformer. You could certainly have arcs jumping contacts, but induced currents would be low. Damage would still be substantial, but the hardest parts to replace have a good potential to be protected ....... all based on appropriate action being taken ahead of time.


----------



## sidecross (Oct 28, 2015)

"....... all based on appropriate action being taken ahead of time."

And this is the 'fly in the ointment'.


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 28, 2015)

Poppy said:


> If we want to ward off murder and cannibalism, we'll have to get food and water into the cities.
> Is the scenario such that there will be NO electricity, or that the distribution system will be destroyed, and the transformers on each telephone pole will have to be replaced?
> 
> I would hope that our nuclear plants would be EMP protected, and will still be able to generate power.
> ...




The damage will be where there are long transmission lines, which are common in the N.A. grid, and many other grids. Some other electrical distribution equipment will be taken out, including equipment that may have been borderline failure, but most local grid equipment is expected to be okay ... including your generators, solar panels, large scale diesel plants (including the megawatt scale ones), etc. If large scale generation capability is taken offline, which is likely to happen either automatically (safety trips) or manually, then generators will be okay.

Could we generate enough electricity to produce enough fossil fuels such that we kept delivery (and production) of only a few key essential items (water, fluor, etc.) moving .... yes .... if we don't lose our heads. The latter being the large issue .... that, and that countries do not appear to keep strategic food (grain) reserves any more. If you want to blame your government for something, that would be a good one. Strategic grain reserves may be something worth bringing back, but not to level prices, but as a just in case scenario. 3 months of grain reserves would go a very long way to keeping everything "okay".


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 28, 2015)

Poppy said:


> I think it was on a series of discovery channel episodes, perhaps it was "the learning channel" I don't recall, but they ran a series of "how to survive a disaster." One week it was a tornado, the next a nuclear bomb., etc. During the nuclear episode, he confiscated a car from a parking lot, he stated that cars that weren't running at the time of the EMP event would not be affected, and would still start and run. He elected to confiscate a diesel because he was going to run it on cooking oil.
> 
> If that is true, then our trucking industry would still be intact. Food could be moved to supermarkets that have natural gas supplied generators, and now, after Super storm Sandy, many gas stations have backup power generators, (well, at least here in New Jersey


Will the vehicles still work? Sort of. EMP is going to take out the charging systems of all vehicles that use solid state voltage regulation. Antique vehicles using magneto/points ignition with a mechanical voltage regulator WILL STILL WORK (and I have one!!!)  I'll be driving during the solar apocalypse, at least until the fuel runs out. Then, I could convert to WOOD GAS fuel. I have access to an appropriate m/c sidecar rig with mag/points for conversion.

No charging system means no ignition in a battery ignition system. You'll get 20-80 miles and then break down from a dead battery.

In a lot of ways, battery ignition is inferior to magneto ignition in an ICE. I think we went backwards in standardizing on battery ignition from a reliability standpoint and a "disaster scenario" standpoint.



Poppy said:


> I would hope that our nuclear plants would be EMP protected, and will still be able to generate power.
> I once visited a coal fired power plant. It is my understanding power demands change hourly and seasonally. For example, during the summer months, power demands spike at 4:00 PM until 9:00 PM, or something like that, when people come home from work, to a hot house/apartment, and turn on the A/C and maybe cook with electricity. Coal fired plants can slowly increase and decrease output, but not at the rate necessary to feed the spike in demands. So... the plant has a number of jet engine powered generators that they fire up for the four hours or so at a time to supplement the main plant. I imagine that there are many of them, scattered across the country at many other power plants.
> 
> Now if in fact we still have the capacity to GENERATE electricity, but the network to distribute it from central locations is destroyed/disabled, then perhaps we could spread the generators out to points of necessity, such as water pump stations, and sewage and waste treatment plants. If natural gas needs to be pumped/pressurized, that will need to be done.


Don't worry about the nuke plants going funny. American nuke plants in good working order can be safely disabled in near the blink of an eye. We learned lessons from disasters such as Chernobyl. This shutdown procedure is referred to in engineering slang as "scramming the plant." A scram is an emergency shutdown. As you say, there are backup generator turbines for when the plant is scrammed or down for scheduled refueling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scram


> A *scram* or *SCRAM* is an emergency shutdown of a nuclear reactor, though the term has been extended to cover shutdowns of other complex operations, such as server farms and even large model railroads. In commercial reactor operations, this emergency shutdown is often referred to as a "SCRAM" at boiling water reactors (BWR), and as a "reactor _trip_" at pressurized water reactors (PWR).[1]​ In many cases, a SCRAM is part of the routine shutdown procedure as well.
> 
> The term is usually cited as being an acronym for *safety control rod axe man*, which was supposedly coined by Enrico Fermi when the world's first nuclear reactor was built under the spectator seating at the University of Chicago's Stagg Field, but NRC Historian Tom Wellock calls the axe-man story "a bunch of baloney."[2]​ It could also stand for "Safety Control Rods Activator Mechanism" or "Safety Control Rods Actuator Mechanism", both of which are probably backronyms.[3]​[4]​ 'Scram' is also a verbal command used to tell someone or something to leave quickly and urgently, although its similarity to the technical term is most likely coincidental.



It's more or less one button to scram hundreds and even thousands of megawatts. What happens next depends on other systems coming online to fill the gap.

The point is moot when your grid is fried. All the power, no way to get it anywhere. Even the nuke plant gas turbine backups won't do any good if all you've got is wire paths that are no good. It's like having a functional heart, but no blood vessels.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 28, 2015)

sidecross said:


> "....... all based on appropriate action being taken ahead of time."
> 
> And this is the 'fly in the ointment'.


Y2K, baby!


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 28, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Will the vehicles still work? Sort of. EMP is going to take out the charging systems of all vehicles that use solid state voltage regulation. Antique vehicles using magneto/points ignition with a mechanical voltage regulator WILL STILL WORK (and I have one!!!)  I'll be driving during the solar apocalypse, at least until the fuel runs out. Then, I could convert to WOOD GAS fuel. I have access to an appropriate m/c sidecar rig with mag/points for conversion.



You replied to the ops question on a Nuclear EMP .... in which case whether your car is running or not is not going to matter w.r.t. damage to electronics. In most modern cars, the battery charging system will be the least of your worries w.r.t. what fails first.

In a solar corona event, cars, cell-phones, pretty much everything will be fine. The issue will be the large scale high voltage distribution system, some of the mid-level voltage distribution system, and satellites.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 28, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> You replied to the ops question on a Nuclear EMP .... in which case whether your car is running or not is not going to matter w.r.t. damage to electronics. In most modern cars, the battery charging system will be the least of your worries w.r.t. what fails first.


You're just jealous I have an EMP proof vehicle. 

You can't guarantee how strong the EM will be in the next major solar storm. It could make 1859 look like a birthday party, you don't know for sure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas


> Wood gas vehicles were used during World War II, as a consequence of the rationing of fossil fuels. In Germany alone, around 500,000 "producer gas" vehicles were in use at the end of the war. Trucks, buses, tractors, motorcycles, ships and trains were equipped with a wood gasification unit. In 1942 (when wood gas had not yet reached the height of its popularity), there were about 73,000 wood gas vehicles in Sweden,[2]​ 65,000 in France, 10,000 in Denmark, and almost 8,000 in Switzerland. In 1944, Finland had 43,000 "woodmobiles", of which 30,000 were buses and trucks, 7,000 private vehicles, 4,000 tractors and 600 boats.[3]​
> 
> Wood gasifiers are still manufactured in China and Russia for automobiles and as power generators for industrial applications. Trucks retrofitted with wood gasifiers are used in North Korea in rural areas, particularly on the roads of the east coast.



http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/01/wood-gas-cars.html


> Wood gasification is a proces whereby organic material is converted into a combustible gas under the influence of heat - the process reaches a temperature of 1,400 °C (2,550 °F). The first use of wood gasification dates back to 1870s, when it was used as a forerunner of natural gas for street lighting and cooking.



EMP-proof vehicle? Check.
Multi-fuel capable? Check.
Permanent tag and $90/yr insurance? Check.
55mpg on regular fuel? Check.
I have all the parts to fix it? Check.

Trust me, I really will be driving after an EMP event. I don't care if all of your refineries fail and fuel can't really be distributed anyway. I live in the woods. Plenty of fuel here.

OMG, head for the hills?!? Already there, check. 

Fishing pond, solar cookers, check check check.

My body is ready. The fatsos will get eaten first by the zombies.

I have a pile of lead and handloading gear. I'm not running out of ammo. Bring on the Apocalypse, I could use the vacation.


----------



## Parrot Quack (Oct 28, 2015)

RedLed said:


> Water is still pumped for large amounts.
> 
> Come down off that mountain and you will be in Utter disbelieve when you see your country in ruins,.....



For what it's worth, it's already in political ruins so what's a bit more. We're in the mountains for all the right reasons and no disrespect but everybody can have all the population centers in the world as we're quite happy up here in the sky with it's fresh air and minimal traffic. With the television turned off, even that ruined world in D.C. doesn't touch us. We're even too far from the county seat to have the county trouble us. When the feathers hit the fan, we'll figure it all out and go from there.

I'm still waiting on the San Andreas fault to let go and see how S.F (and/or the Hayward fault) handles their situation. The point, just saying, local or earthly, the world is always looking forward to the next calamity.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 28, 2015)

PQ: You are welcome to come visit me in the woods. I can come visit you in the mountains in my EMP-proof wood gas converted side car m/c rig with kick start and mechanical voltage regulator. 

We'll be toasting with moonshine while fishing while the zombies eat each other in population centers.


----------



## Parrot Quack (Oct 28, 2015)

A plan.


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 28, 2015)

Where would you drive?

Gasification currently happens on an industrial scale for waste incineration. Its a cool and green process, though the greenies hate it about as much as they hate nuclear ... unfortunately common sense is not common and it's better to be "right" than right.

I wonder how my lawn tractor would handle if I changed the gearing to get it up to 40kph? It's quite EMP immune too.

No worries about solar flare EMP killing electronics. There are many much more knowledgeable people on the subject than you or I that already have opinions on the matter. Nuclear EMP field strength 10's of KV/M. Corona discharge is not an EMP event per se. It creates sustained fields over large distances that are DC and can be high current, hence why they can take out transformers and associated transmission equipment. Induced field strengths are orders of magnitude less.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 28, 2015)

> I wonder how my lawn tractor would handle if I changed the gearing to get it up to 40kph? It's quite EMP immune too.


US Lawn Mower Racing Association
http://www.letsmow.com/

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-a-racing-lawn-mower/


> Many of these mowers go 50MPH or more.Making a race mower isn't as simple as taking a stock tractor and making it go fast without any alterations. So its important that the frame, brakes, steering, engine, and wheels are modified or altered to handle this additional speed.*So to make this point doubly clear, it is NOT a good idea to take a bone stock mower and make it go fast.* You can, and will get hurt if you do so, and trust me- I've seen enough people wreck due to this very reason.



Racing mowers are scary as can be. Get the suspension/steering wrong and you crater!

I guess it's like my old 2 stroke modified scooter (also EMP proof and hated by greenies.) It goes fast enough to get a front end wobble and scare the heck out of you though you're only going maybe 50 mph downhill with a tail wind. Feels like you're doing 90.

As far as woodgas as an energy source, it's quite viable! Figures the hippies would be against it because it works. It doesn't even have to pollute, there's tech to deal with the smoke.

http://www.smartburn.com.au/wood-fire-smoke/How+it+Works


> The *SmartBurn pollution reduction device* is a steel tubular device containing a solid mixture of natural ingredients. Once heated, the ingredients melt and sit in the ‘bowl’ of the steel casing and release a small amount of vapourised ingredients from the open ends.
> 
> The vapours emitted by SmartBurn work directly on the smoke (wasted fuel) and turn these into burnable fuel.This results in up to a *54%*​ reduction in wood smoke* emissions and a *17%*​ more effective burn* of wood. A small amount of these ingredients will act on any existing residues (creosote) on the internal walls in the chimney flue, and these will be slowly removed.


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 28, 2015)

http://www.gasification.org/what-is-gasification/gasification-vs-incineration/

top of the scale

http://www.motherearthnews.com/renewable-energy/methane-gas-zmaz71ndzgoe.aspx?PageId=2

bottom of the scale

http://theurbanfarmingguys.com/methane-biodigester-how-to


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 28, 2015)

Another way to reduce pollution and increase efficiency with woodgas and syngas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_generator


> MHD generators are technically practical for fossil fuels, but have been overtaken by other, less expensive technologies, such as combined cycles in which a gas turbine's or molten carbonate fuel cell's exhaust heats steam to power a steam turbine. Natural MHD dynamos are an active area of research in plasma physics and are of great interest to the geophysics and astrophysics communities, since the magnetic fields of the earth and sun are produced by these natural dynamos.



The Achilles Heel of MHD is high unit cost. Too bad, really, it works like a champ. There was a science facility near here working on cleanly burning old tires for energy. It worked! It worked! People looked at the price tag and went elsewhere. 

I hate it when that happens!


----------



## Poppy (Oct 28, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Will the vehicles still work? Sort of. EMP is going to take out the charging systems of all vehicles that use solid state voltage regulation. <BIG SNIP>
> The point is moot when your grid is fried. All the power, no way to get it anywhere. Even the nuke plant gas turbine backups won't do any good if all you've got is wire paths that are no good. It's like having a functional heart, but no blood vessels.


In the "documentary" there was no mention of failed charging systems. I do know a bit about cars, and the alternator does have a hot lead connected to the battery at all times. So I guess that there may always be some current supplied to the regulator. Can you explain why the regulator gets fried, and not the computer or other electronic components? OR are you sharing information that you read on some doomsday site that may or may not be correct? IF it is because the alternator always has some power, then disconnecting the battery before the EMP hits, should protect it.



SemiMan said:


> You replied to the ops question on a Nuclear EMP .... in which case whether your car is running or not is not going to matter w.r.t. damage to electronics. In most modern cars, the battery charging system will be the least of your worries w.r.t. what fails first.
> 
> *In a solar corona event, cars, cell-phones, pretty much everything will be fine. The issue will be the large scale high voltage distribution system, some of the mid-level voltage distribution system, and satellites.*


SemiMan,
Thank you once again for your, reasoned input. :thumbsup:


----------



## RedLED (Oct 28, 2015)

Poppy said:


> If we want to ward off murder and cannibalism, we'll have to get food and water into the cities.
> Is the scenario such that there will be NO electricity, or that the distribution system will be destroyed, and the transformers on each telephone pole will have to be replaced?
> 
> I would hope that our nuclear plants would be EMP protected, and will still be able to generate power.
> ...


Poppy, walking distance to water supplies in Los Angeles, CA, you would never make it.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 28, 2015)

Poppy said:


> In the "documentary" there was no mention of failed charging systems. I do know a bit about cars, and the alternator does have a hot lead connected to the battery at all times. So I guess that there may always be some current supplied to the regulator. Can you explain why the regulator gets fried, and not the computer or other electronic components? OR are you sharing information that you read on some doomsday site that may or may not be correct? IF it is because the alternator always has some power, then disconnecting the battery before the EMP hits, should protect it.
> 
> 
> SemiMan,
> Thank you once again for your, reasoned input. :thumbsup:



No disrespect intended Semi, but that is not how it will happen go to the library and read fact checked books, not this sounds right so post it on the internet. It is a serious threat, and this is a good discussion, I'm not trying to scare people, but nature and the natural world and what happens in solar systems happens. Who knows you may like it better, hey it could be a great way to live but you better learn to live off the land like Captain Lewis and Captain Clark did. 

This is is why you need to live well, not fight as much with your wife, cheat, and enjoy your kids, so you can at least say, new I lived a good live. 

Oddly enough, our Flashlight Lumen Pontiff, may fare well in the Hawaiian Islands, the most remote spot in the entire world, I think they could live off the land, Don, like myself may get tired of fire twirling, but he could stroll the beach and surf every day. I could dig that.

I am just afraid be medal be decked Generals in the nuclear powers states, not knowing what is going in as the hotline will not work will start an awful war which will destroy every square inch if the planet.

Really, they need rid of all these nuclear devices, they have no tactical uses, and if there was ever an accident with one it would be 20,000 times worse than Chernobyl. They serve no purpose anymore as MDA takes over but, an EMP could unleash an awful disaster which no words exist to describe.


----------



## Poppy (Oct 28, 2015)

RedLed said:


> Poppy, walking distance to water supplies in Los Angeles, CA, you would never make it.



Then as I said... either get the pumps working or they will have to migrate, to where they can walk to water. Maybe to another state.


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 28, 2015)

My EMP proof cruiser.


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 28, 2015)

No battery needed. Just fire.


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 29, 2015)

RedLed said:


> No disrespect intended Semi, but that is not how it will happen go to the library and read fact checked books, not this sounds right so post it on the internet. It is a serious threat, and this is a good discussion, I'm not trying to scare people, but nature and the natural world and what happens in solar systems happens. Who knows you may like it better, hey it could be a great way to live but you better learn to live off the land like Captain Lewis and Captain Clark did.



I am not sure what you are responding to, but what I wrote on Nuclear EMP, and a solar flare/coronal discharge (which is not EMP, but generates E-Fields) is accurate. Nuclear takes out everything. Coronal discharge takes out grid connected stuff ... stuff connected to long wires where large DC currents can be generated.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 29, 2015)

SemiMan,
Thank you once again for your, reasoned input. [/QUOTE]


No disrespect intended Semi, but that is not how it will happen go to the library and read fact checked books, not this sounds right so post it on the internet. It is a serious threat, and this is a good discussion, I'm not trying to scare people, but nature and the natural world and what happens in solar systems happens. Who knows you may like it better, hey it could be a great way to live but you better learn to live off the land like Captain Lewis and Captain Clark did. 


This is is why you need to live well, not fight as much with your wife, cheat, and enjoy your kids, so you can at least say, I knew I lived a good live. 


Oddly enough, our Flashlight Lumen Pontiff, The Sultan of Switches, The Lord of Lumens, the Baron of the Bins, the Ruler of Reflectors, the Commodore of Cree, The Lord High Chieftain of color Temperature, The Titan of Titanium, The Commissar of the Clip, Don Mc Gizmo may fare well in the Hawaiian Islands, the most remote spot in the entire world, I think they could live off the land, Don, like myself may get tired of fire twirling, but he could stroll the beach and surf every day. I could dig that.


I am just afraid be medal be decked Generals in the nuclear powers states, not knowing what is going on, as the hotline will not work will start an awful war which will destroy every square inch if the planet.


Really, they need rid of all these nuclear devices, they have no tactical uses, and if there was ever an accident with one of the missiles,just something gone wrong it would be 20,000 times worse than Chernobyl. They serve no purpose anymore as MDA takes over but, an EMP could unleash an awful disaster which no words exist to describe, really, I don't think the old missile system of the USSR ie even in a stage of readiness and don't even work anymore.

anyway, let's worry about that for about ten minutes that we will have if it happens, and think better thoughts like new and better flashlights.

Sorry but prepper's would be far better to by gold bullion.

Don't worry about it!


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 29, 2015)

I am still not sure what you are going on about. The library will have likely No Books about what a solar coronal discharge will do. The balance of the good research is only in the last 5-10 years. The internet and knowing the difference between a research paper and supposition is what is required here.

Loss of grid power does not mean loss of military communications, especially with military requirements for hardening of equipment. 

Some effects will be quick, ie loss of some radio communications, but most will still work including land lines. The major event from the coronal discharge will have a 12+ hour warning so yes people will know what is going on. After that event, while we may not have satellites, we will have a return of radio communication.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

Poppy said:


> In the "documentary" there was no mention of failed charging systems. I do know a bit about cars, and the alternator does have a hot lead connected to the battery at all times. So I guess that there may always be some current supplied to the regulator. Can you explain why the regulator gets fried, and not the computer or other electronic components? OR are you sharing information that you read on some doomsday site that may or may not be correct? IF it is because the alternator always has some power, then disconnecting the battery before the EMP hits, should protect it.



Um, what documentary? I'm going by my military training. I used to work in this environment, as well as communications.

A strong EMP (nuke, dedicated EMP device) causes energy in wires. The problem is that as we make our semiconductor tech smaller and smaller, they become more and more vulnerable to the EMP. It's counter intuitive I know, but the tiniest of the tiny fries quite nicely with that inducted current.

AFAIK, the last radiation hardened processors ever made was a 486 and a Pentium 1 hardened for the US Space Shuttle.
http://www.sandia.gov/media/rhp.htm

We can't harden the newer designs... WE CAN'T! They have been miniaturized too much. The more miniaturization, the greater vulnerability to EMP.

It simply does not matter whether or not it's "plugged in" or energized. EMP annihilates CPUs. It annihilates integrated circuits. The hard drive in your PC will be okay, but it's control circuitry will be gone... it basically works out to the same thing.

I didn't say that it'd be the voltage regulator and NOT the car's computer. It's going to be a package deal.

Well reasoned and well thought out? I'm right here. Ask me questions. I used to take a paycheck for this gig.

Encourage the proper person.  Enough EMP is going to erase your entire music collection on your iPod.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove (Oct 29, 2015)

On second thought, can't get the video to play reliably...


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

Brothers and Sisters!
Pump up the volume!
Pump up the volume!
Dance!
Dance!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Auxiliary_Radio_System


> The *Military Auxiliary Radio System* (MARS) is a United States Department of Defense sponsored program, established as a separately managed and operated program by the United States Army, Navy, and Air Force. The program is a civilian auxiliary consisting primarily of licensed amateur radio operators who are interested in assisting the military with communications on a local, national, and international basis as an adjunct to normal communications. The MARS programs also include active duty, reserve, and National Guard units; Navy, Marine Corps, and National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration ships, and Coast Guard cutters and shore stations.[1]​ MARS has a long history of providing worldwide auxiliary emergency communications during times of need. The combined three-service MARS programs (Army, Air Force, and Navy–Marine Corps) volunteer force of over 5,000 dedicated and skilled amateur radio operators provide the backbone of the MARS program. The main benefit of MARS membership is enjoying the amateur radio hobby through an ever-expanding horizon of MARS service to the nation. MARS members work by the slogan "Proudly serving those who serve".



Allright, homeboys, this one's for you! 
We can talk to Mars and we can talk to the Moon! 

Pump up the volume!
Pump up the volume!
Dance!
Dance!


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 29, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Um, what documentary? I'm going by my military training. I used to work in this environment, as well as communications.
> 
> A strong EMP (nuke, dedicated EMP device) causes energy in wires. The problem is that as we make our semiconductor tech smaller and smaller, they become more and more vulnerable to the EMP. It's counter intuitive I know, but the tiniest of the tiny fries quite nicely with that inducted current.
> 
> ...




You implied it was the voltage regulator and not the rest of the electronics ... that is what I read into what you wrote as well. 


FYI, Radiation Hardening as it applies to processors (for space usage, etc.) is a much different thing from EMP protection. Radiation Hardening in this case is about protection from cosmic rays and other high energy photons that tend to do bad things to semiconductors causing both instantaneous bit errors or worse, permanent damage to the semiconductor material. Process geometry does come into play, because if you have fine geometry, a single high energy photon can make a big difference both in terms of flipping a bit, but also in terms of structure damage. This, however, is not the same as general "EMP" which the damage is all about induced electrical fields. Radiation hardening of semis is about protecting the small inner workings of the device.

With EMP in electrical systems, the damage is primarily externally induced through every connected wire over which large voltages can be generated ... pretty much like when you "shock" a PCB with static electricity. 


We can't harden small geometry semiconductor devices to any degree, but we can and certainly do "harden" systems to EMP. It's done all the time. Faraday cages, high energy surge suppression, etc. all work to reduce EMP susceptibility.


Encourage the proper person? .... not sure what that means?


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> You implied it was the voltage regulator and not the rest of the electronics ... that is what I read into what you wrote as well.


 That's what questions are for, that's not what I meant. I said that. Pedantics are getting a touch old, sir. A 1960s vehicle with mag/points and mechanical voltage regulator* has no computer. You adjust timing with a hammer and screwdriver. *



SemiMan said:


> FYI, Radiation Hardening as it applies to processors (for space usage, etc.) is a much different thing from EMP protection.


Nope. Same techniques, you are incorrect.



SemiMan said:


> Radiation Hardening in this case is about protection from cosmic rays and other high energy photons that tend to do bad things to semiconductors causing both instantaneous bit errors or worse, permanent damage to the semiconductor material. Process geometry does come into play, because if you have fine geometry, a single high energy photon can make a big difference both in terms of flipping a bit, but also in terms of structure damage. This, however, is not the same as general "EMP" which the damage is all about induced electrical fields. Radiation hardening of semis is about protecting the small inner workings of the device.


 Cosmic rays and such induct energy on small scale conductors and it's the same techniques to protect against them as EMP. 



SemiMan said:


> With EMP in electrical systems, the damage is primarily externally induced through every connected wire over which large voltages can be generated ... pretty much like when you "shock" a PCB with static electricity.


Nope, the super small scale traces of today's lithography IC are super vulnerable. The effect of a long wire is "big." The effect on tiny wires is "small." The problem is that ICs are super vulnerable, more so the smaller they get. Sounds like you're mixing up Tempest and Hardening.



SemiMan said:


> We can't harden small geometry semiconductor devices to any degree, but we can and certainly do "harden" systems to EMP. It's done all the time. Faraday cages, high energy surge suppression, etc. all work to reduce EMP susceptibility.


Nope, we can and do all the time. I used to work on such equipment. Bonding, conductivity, honeycomb filters, grounding. We even have equipment to test for "leaks."


SemiMan said:


> Encourage the proper person? .... not sure what that means?


You're speaking outside your field. Ever taken a paycheck for any of this we're discussing? I have.

Radiation and EMP hardened processors exist. They aren't in common use because no consumer would stand for the price and poor performance.


----------



## HB 88 (Oct 29, 2015)

This testing corporation offers real world workshops and seminars. I am NOT associated in any way other than attending a few workshops and being a end user of the testing services provided. In my experience internet doomers and survivalist type sites and threads are notoriously inaccurate sources of information. 

http://www.dlsemc.com/emc-testing/milstd/milstd.htm?bing=milstd


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

HB 88 said:


> This testing corporation offers real world workshops and seminars. I am NOT associated in any way other than attending a few workshops and being a end user of the testing services provided. *In my experience internet doomers and survivalist type sites and threads are notoriously inaccurate sources of information.
> *
> http://www.dlsemc.com/emc-testing/milstd/milstd.htm?bing=milstd


Bold for the truth, sir. Some guy on the internet says something, thus people put tinfoil on their heads.

See that box in the middle of the pic in that link? The one with the door and the ducts going to it? I've been in those.

Good times. This thread has made my nostalgic for my MARS disaster response days, like that time we built a comm van out of garbage.


----------



## bykfixer (Oct 29, 2015)

Who was prepared for that blimp in Maryland with it's 6000+ foot long tether running afoul, taking out who knows what as it meandered northward?


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

Link? Haven't heard of this.

This? Little bit of a power outage, bit of an oops for Uncle Sam.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/29/us/army-surveillance-blimp-pennsylvania.html?_r=0


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

Before the apocalypse hits, check out joining ARRL. It's kind of the civilian version of MARS.

http://www.arrl.org/
Amateur Radio Relay League. Most licenses no longer have morse code requirements.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

*Apocalypse solved*: EMP Isolation Transformer. Been around since way before 1985. Last IEEE update, 2007.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/logi...all.jsp?tp=&arnumber=4334121&isnumber=4334025

I guess it would take all the fun out of our apocalypse if we actually started to install this stuff. Oh well. We knew it was coming, we had the tools, we had the talent. We just sat on our butts and now it's the Solar Storm Zombie Apocalypse. 

We coulda prevented it!


----------



## Parrot Quack (Oct 29, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> *.....*and now it's the Solar Storm Zombie Apocalypse.



........................I get the Katana. 

................Hah! Swoosh! Slice! Yeah Baby!


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 29, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Nope, we can and do all the time. I used to work on such equipment. Bonding, conductivity, honeycomb filters, grounding. We even have equipment to test for "leaks."
> 
> You're speaking outside your field. Ever taken a paycheck for any of this we're discussing? I have.




Actually, YOU are speaking outside YOUR area of expertise.

As a matter of fact, YES I have taken a paycheque for what we are are discussing having worked in the semiconductor field, and been involved with military and a space based project.

"Cosmic rays and such induct energy on small scale conductors" ..... that is a very simplistic view of just one very small aspect of Radiation Hardening for semiconductors. 

May I suggest reading a few basic articles on what rad-hard means for semiconductors:

https://www.maxwell.com/images/documents/case_study_micro_e_how_rad_hard.pdf

http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/semiconductors/design/radiationhardening-101

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/ar...us/rad-hard-moves-into-the-submicron-age.html .... which talks about 45nm hardening. Didn't you say that couldn't be done???

I suggest reading the whole article. You will notice that SGEMP (SYSTEM generated EMP is just one aspect of design, and for the most part, is NOT the primary purpose of most rad-hardening work at the IC level, as it is typically dealt at at the system level). You can shield relatively easily for EMP. It's very difficult (and heavy) to shield for high energy photons.


TEMPEST is for protection for the leaking of EMI to prevent any possible spying. I am not sure why you would be bringing that up. That has nothing to do with RAD HARD semiconductors.

TEMPEST is "considered" when discussing EMP protection for facilities as the methods for one work very well for the other ... but again, nothing to do with RAD HARD semis.


Feel free to read any of the real research, including testing on 2000 model year cars up to 50KV/M (serious nuclear EMP levels). Most did not permanently fail. They may have malfunctioned, but most could be restarted. Not all, but most. Yes electronics have gotten smaller, but EMI design has far improved. Again, it is primarily voltage/current induced on external elements, i.e. long traces, connected wires, etc. where most of the EMP damage is done, not direct injection into the chip.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

Ease up, man. You just said hardened processors don't exist and that's wrong.

Also, you tend to be extremely unfriendly, I think that's why users look for an excuse to poke holes in your statements.

Tempest is more than just spying, you just skimmed the wiki article on it. I'm not at liberty to discuss it further and neither are you if you're telling the truth about military involvement.

This thread was supposed to be fun, you're like a wet blanket.


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 29, 2015)

HB 88 said:


> This testing corporation offers real world workshops and seminars. I am NOT associated in any way other than attending a few workshops and being a end user of the testing services provided. In my experience internet doomers and survivalist type sites and threads are notoriously inaccurate sources of information.
> 
> http://www.dlsemc.com/emc-testing/milstd/milstd.htm?bing=milstd



That is much different from EMP testing which is done either short range with high strength RF for simulation in Faraday cages or in field ranges:

http://www.wsmr.army.mil/PAO/wuaws/Pages/Electromagneticpulsetesting.aspx

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/E-4_advanced_airborne_command_post_EMP_sim.jpg

I should clarify that special ESD generation is also used to test/model EMP effects on circuits.


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 29, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Ease up, man. You just said hardened processors don't exist and that's wrong.
> 
> Also, you tend to be extremely unfriendly, I think that's why users look for an excuse to poke holes in your statements.
> 
> Tempest is more than just spying, you just skimmed the wiki article on it. I'm not at liberty to discuss it further and neither are you if you're telling the truth about military involvement.




Let's take on that "unfriendly" statement? If you consider letting others validate themselves by posting inaccurate information on web-forums to the detriment of others to be friendly, then I will wear my unfriendly label as a badge of honor. Thank you, I appreciate it.


1) I never said that hardened processors do not exist. In fact you said that we can't "harden" things any more due to small semiconductor geometries, " 

Let me remind you what you said:



more_vampires said:


> We can't harden the newer designs... WE CAN'T! They have been miniaturized too much.



.... I posted a link that clearly shows work on hardening at 45nm geometries ... quite a bit newer than that old 486 processor. 

2) Please don't use the "USERS" paintbrush on anyone but yourself. You are trying to poke holes in what I wrote because I have said you are wrong. You are offended. That does not change the accuracy of what I have wrote. 

3) TEMPEST IS all about security of emissions:

https://www.sans.org/reading-room/whitepapers/privacy/introduction-tempest-981

http://www.jammed.com/~jwa/tempest.html

https://www.nsa.gov/applications/ia/tempest/tempestPOCs.cfm

.... and YES, the procedures for TEMPEST and EMP protection are very similar and it would be normal at a facility level to plan for both simultaneously.

http://cryptome.org/emp.htm (and a better version: http://fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp/toc.htm)

http://www.tempest-inc.com/home.htm .... good source of information


I am not sure how you could even imply I was mixing up TEMPEST and RAD-HARD as they are not remotely related w.r.. what we were talking about. Not even close. The only way I could see you mix this up would be w.r.t. data security at the chip level and using non-invasive stealth means of reading data (encryption codes, etc.).... which is not TEMPEST per se ....... And before you insinuate any security breach, may I remind you that you brought up TEMPEST.


----------



## HB 88 (Oct 29, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> That is much different from EMP testing which is done either short range with high strength RF for simulation in Faraday cages or in field ranges:
> g



Exactly..............


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

LOL, Semiman is getting worked up over a Zombie Apocalypse thread. Sigh. EASE UP MAN!

Zombies aren't even real!

Semiman, your hostility is a CPF rule 4 violation. This is the second time you've done this to me in a short period. I think you're targeting me.

I am friendly, ask around. Can you be friendly? Please? It's the rules, you know.



Parrot Quack said:


> ........................I get the Katana.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now THAT's more like it!!  I've heard Cheness and Windlass suggested as good katanas.


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 29, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> LOL, Semiman is getting worked up over a Zombie Apocalypse thread. Sigh. EASE UP MAN!
> 
> Zombies aren't even real!
> 
> ...




Shot #1:



more_vampires said:


> Encourage the proper person.  Enough EMP is going to erase your entire music collection on your iPod.



Shot #2



more_vampires said:


> You're speaking outside your field. Ever taken a paycheck for any of this we're discussing? I have.




.... Please remove yourself for CPF RULE#4 violations if you feel so strongly.


I am not sure why you brought up that other thread. You were wrong. You posted the same wrong thing 6 times in that thread. You then claimed you did not post it ... when clearly you did. I think you called me unfriendly that time too because I would call out the erroneous post every time .... which is all I am doing here.

May I suggest you stick to fact and information and the topic at hand and try not to make this a personal attack to deflect from the inaccuracies in what you have been posting.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

Can you not drop it? Please? Lighten up.


----------



## Kestrel (Oct 29, 2015)

No horseplay around the pool or running with scissors please.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

Kestrel said:


> No horseplay around the pool or running with scissors please.


 That goes double during the Zombie Apocalypse. The hospitals are the last place you want to be. 

Seriously though, emergencies of any kind... I'd avoid hospitals.

http://www.cdc.gov/phpr/zombies.htm


> Wonder why Zombies, Zombie Apocalypse, and Zombie Preparedness continue to live or walk dead on a CDC web site? As it turns out what first began as a tongue in cheek campaign to engage new audiences with preparedness messages has proven to be a very effective platform. We continue to reach and engage a wide variety of audiences on all hazards preparedness via Zombie Preparedness.



The CDC is ready for the outbreak.  After all, if you're prepped for that then you're prepped for an earthquake or most disasters overall.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Oct 29, 2015)

So is it possible to create an emp pulse weapon so to damage an enemy's defenses, without using an nuclear blast.

John.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> So is it possible to create an emp pulse weapon so to damage an enemy's defenses, without using an nuclear blast.
> 
> John.


Yep!  The Discovery Channel show "Futureweapons" had a nice bit on that. They fried a car while the show host sat inside.


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 29, 2015)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> So is it possible to create an emp pulse weapon so to damage an enemy's defenses, without using an nuclear blast.
> 
> John.



Yes you can. There are quite a few design concepts you can find on the web.

But realistically, you are not going to take out their defences which are likely hardened, just collateral damage.

Range is short, but the work is on making directed, i.e. take out a data center.

I am waiting for the hand held drone killer myself.


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 29, 2015)

:hahaha:



Kestrel said:


> No horseplay around the pool or running with scissors please.



5 pages in Im actually quite impressed with the civility so far. Keep up the good work everyone! This is the most interesting 90% off topic thread I have ever read, but 100% worth it. Theres some good stuff in here, and we can add ourselves to the all "EMP" threads out there. All sorts of keywords up in here. We may even land towards the top of the pile. Good read.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> :hahaha:
> 5 pages in Im actually quite impressed with the civility so far. Keep up the good work everyone! This is the most interesting 90% off topic thread I have ever read, but 100% worth it. Theres some good stuff in here, and we can add ourselves to the all "EMP" threads out there. All sorts of keywords up in here. We may even land towards the top of the pile. Good read.


Thanks for starting it, my man. You rock, FC!


----------



## markr6 (Oct 29, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> This is the most interesting 90% off topic thread I have ever read, but 100% worth it.



I love that line right there!


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 29, 2015)

:thumbsup:


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 29, 2015)

So Mark, FC...

What footwear for the Solar Flare Apocalypse?

Combat boots for durability and protection? Athletic shoes for top running speed? Riding boots for our biodiesel bikes?

Squeaky shoes will get you eaten by the hordes.

Kawasaki offers a diesel motorcycle by the way. It has 4 multifuel kits so you can burn almost anything in it. I want one so badly.

http://olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_m1030_m1d.php


> [h=1]Kawasaki M1030 M1 Diesel Military Motorcycles[/h]The M1030 is a lightweight, rugged, commercial, cross-country motorcycle, based on the Kawasaki KLR 650, modified for military use. It provides an alternate means of transporting messages, documents, and light cargo between units. The M1030 may also be used to transport forward observers, military police, and reconnaissance personnel. The size and construction of the M1030 makes it highly mobile on all roads and cross-country terrain.
> The M1030, M1030B1 and M1030M1 motorcycles are the COTS (Commercial Off the Shelf) Kawasaki KLR 650 modified for military use by Hayes Diversified Technologies. The M1030 and M1030B1 have been procured by the US Army, USMC, and the USAF. The M1030M1 is a program of the USMC. Since 2006, Hayes also produces the M1030M1E specifically designed for the UK and EU NATO countries.


----------



## FRITZHID (Oct 29, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> So Mark, FC...
> 
> What footwear for the Solar Flare Apocalypse?
> 
> ...



Grab one for me and I'll meet ya in northern WI @ my bug out cabin!


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 29, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> So Mark, FC...
> 
> What footwear for the Solar Flare Apocalypse?


----------



## Taz80 (Oct 29, 2015)

And you give the squeaky shoes with the blinking lights to someone you don't like, so you don't get trapped in and alley and eaten while your bugging out on your new bike. If all this really happens the boondocks are likely to become very crowded. I'm thinking that a couple of hundred million people can do a lot of damage pretty fast. The trees will be cut down for firewood, the animals will be eaten. I think I'd rather skip this disaster, thanks anyway.


----------



## StarHalo (Oct 29, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> What footwear for the Solar Flare Apocalypse?
> 
> Combat boots for durability and protection? Athletic shoes for top running speed?



Yes.


----------



## Woods Walker (Oct 30, 2015)

Kestrel said:


> No horseplay around the pool or running with scissors please.





more_vampires said:


> That goes double during the Zombie Apocalypse. The hospitals are the last place you want to be.



Party poopers.


----------



## Woods Walker (Oct 30, 2015)

Beyond goofing around the reason for those pics is to ponder how often does someone get a warning before an ER breaks out. The bottom one was from a 7 day backout some years ago and top was what I had in my pockets when resting in the woods during a day hike which the weather turned bad and lasted longer than expected.









Time to leave. It got darker and snower on the way out. If something went wrong glad I had those items on hand.







Here is what I had on my person some years ago. I like to take snap shots of my EDC to compare at a later date. Remember what you actually have on your person during an ER might be all you have. Just something to ponder.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 30, 2015)

sidecross said:


> "....... all based on appropriate action being taken ahead of time."
> 
> And this is the 'fly in the ointment'.


Sorry Chief, read the scientific journals around eight minutes. I'm sorry dude. I wish I could change it.


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 30, 2015)

RedLed said:


> Sorry Chief, read the scientific journals around eight minutes. I'm sorry dude. I wish I could change it.



Sorry Chief that is the amount of time for light/photons to travel which is NOT where the major danger is from a solar flare.

The danger is from coronal mass ejection, massive amounts of charged particles that have a nasty interaction with the magnetosphere and the earth's magnetic field as well as upper atmosphere. That takes at least 12 hours and generally quite a bit longer. 

These particles are highly energetic and pose a radiation hazard for spacecraft personnel and even plane passengers especially near the poles.


----------



## nightshade (Oct 30, 2015)

Most of this information is only semi-correct.


----------



## Kestrel (Oct 30, 2015)

nightshade said:


> Most of this information is only semi-correct.


Now that's a good sigline for most any online forum. :thumbsup:


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 30, 2015)

StarHalo said:


> Yes.


Ooh! I like those and need some shoes anyway. Cool! 



Woods Walker said:


> Beyond goofing around the reason for those pics is to ponder how often does someone get a warning before an ER breaks out. The bottom one was from a 7 day backout some years ago and top was what I had in my pockets when resting in the woods during a day hike which the weather turned bad and lasted longer than expected.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WW, I nominate you for squad leader!  You're welcome in my zombie bunker. I'll pour you a glass as society goes down the drain.


----------



## Parrot Quack (Oct 30, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> Who was prepared for that blimp in Maryland with it's 6000+ foot long tether running afoul, taking out who knows what as it meandered northward?



We were prepared. Out here in Northern California, we didn't have a bit of trouble and it was due to.......ya know, I don't know why we didn't have any trouble and everybody knows, 6000+ feet is a long way.


----------



## Poppy (Oct 30, 2015)

RedLed said:


> Sorry Chief, read the scientific journals around eight minutes. I'm sorry dude. I wish I could change it.


Due to the doom and gloom posts in this thread, and rebuttals by SemiMan and the attacks on him/his comments I started reading some of the linked material, and just started looking at, and reading, scientific journal material.

Here is an article, posted on the Scientific American website, that says essentially that SemiMan is right and RedLed is wrong about the time it takes for the impact of Solar Flare Particles caused by Sun eruptions/ solar flares/ CME Coronal Mass Ejections. 
In part it says that it takes 2-3 days for the particles (that cause problems) to reach the earth.


> Two waves of solar material blown out by powerful sun eruptions n this week are hitting the Earth now, and could amplify the aurora displays for observers in northern regions.
> Scientists with NOAA's Space Weather Prediction Center in Boulder, Colorado, expected the first wave of solar flare particles — unleashed by a so-called coronal mass ejection, or CME, on Monday (Sept. 8, 2014) — to reach Earth Thursday night (Sept. 11). A second wave, this one caused by a massive solar flare on Wednesday, is due to arrive between Friday and early Saturday.


THIS ARTICLE may cause confusion in that some points are not clearly made, and seem contradictory, until one fills in the blanks.
In part it states that energized particles from solar flares/CMEs, can reach the Earth's atmosphere in 8 minutes. These particles are in the form of X-ray, and Gamma ray. They are absorbed by the atmosphere, and do not reach Earth's surface. Other than being a danger to astronauts, and satellites, essentially they are no big deal. 
OTOH, the damaging particles will take days to reach Earth, and may cause electrical storms in the way of lighting strikes.


----------



## 1DaveN (Oct 30, 2015)

Thanks for the good info, Poppy. It would be interesting to know, in the worst case, how long to expect normal services like the power grid to be down. I wonder if it's considered possible for the 12-24 month impact in the original post to actually occur.


----------



## Poppy (Oct 30, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Um, what documentary? <SNIP>
> 
> I didn't say that it'd be the voltage regulator and NOT the car's computer. It's going to be a package deal.
> 
> <SNIP>.


The documentary I mentioned in post #108


And you responded to it in post # 124
In part, you said... -------------------------------------------------------


"Will the vehicles still work? Sort of. EMP is going to *take out the charging systems *of all vehicles that use solid state voltage regulation. Antique vehicles using magneto/points ignition with *a mechanical voltage regulator WILL STILL WORK* (and I have one!!!) <SNIP>
*No charging system means no ignition* in a battery ignition system. You'll get 20-80 miles and then break down from a dead battery."
-------------------------------------------------

My 1967 Cougar had an alternator, with three diodes, and one of them went bad. I don't know if it had a mechanical or electronic regulator. How old of an antique are you referring to?

Not that it matters, if you and RedLed are correct then if you have a running vehicle, the hords will kill you for it.


----------



## Poppy (Oct 30, 2015)

1DaveN said:


> Thanks for the good info, Poppy. It would be interesting to know, in the worst case, how long to expect normal services like the power grid to be down. I wonder if it's considered possible for the 12-24 month impact in the original post to actually occur.


Thanks Dave. I also wonder how long of an impact, and to what extent.

I have read that NASA has put, or is putting, together an early warning system so that power plants can take steps to protect themselves, including disconnecting the grid and important (difficult to replace) components of the grid. Considering that they are aware of the threat, and are taking steps to minimize the impact, I personally think that it is improbable that *the entire grid* would ever be down, for more than a couple of days. And those days, would be not because of damage, but rather to ward it off.

Consider this... from the US Department of Energy Information:
"There are about 19,243 individual generators with nameplate generation capacities of at least 1 megawatt (MW) at about 7,304 operational power plants in the United States. A power plant may have one or more generators, and some generators may use more than one type of fuel."

Therefore, I believe that even in the worst case scenario, there will be pockets of electricity all over the country.


----------



## more_vampires (Oct 30, 2015)

Poppy said:


> The documentary I mentioned in post #108
> And you responded to it in post # 124


Oh, right, thanks for the refresher.


Poppy said:


> My 1967 Cougar had an alternator, with three diodes, and one of them went bad. I don't know if it had a mechanical or electronic regulator. How old of an antique are you referring to?


Most (but not all) 1960s BMW used points/mag (which is what I have.) A mechanical voltage regulator cuts the gen in and out really quickly. Under an o-scope the wave form is a nasty, noisy square wave. Sort of like "good enough" regulation. Any components must be tough enough to handle it, so they're pretty robust in general. Maybe I'm way off base, but this and the fact that it's sealed in an aluminum/magnesium housing should also help matters.

The alternator designs I've seen use have a rectifier and a regulator. The regulator regulates, the rectifier tries to make it less "AC like."

Mechanical reg gens (at least the ones I own and work on) don't have a diode, but a high temperature wire-wound ceramic resistor. This means there is no semiconductor, computer, whatever, to fry.

Based on this, I would guess my antique is EMP and EM proof. If it's building charge and arcing, then that'd just make the magneto work better afaik. I don't have my own EMP device at the moment to test this, unfortunately.

In addition: My old BMW will run without a battery or wiring harness installed. It can absolutely run without the charging system as it's independent of the charging system alltogether. A few guys I know have rigged theirs this way as a daytime local driver.

So, in that sense, doesn't matter if the charging system is even vulnerable or not, so we can sidestep that question alltogether.



Poppy said:


> Not that it matters, if you and RedLed are correct then if you have a running vehicle, the hords will kill you for it.


If they are on foot, this would assume:
1. They can catch me
2. They can win the fight.

With a roadblock ambush, they might get #1. With the stuff I've got access to, #2 is questionable. About all that's left to add is riot armor and class IIIa. I'm still shopping for this as the price tag makes it costly to make a mistake. I have stuff like a machine pistol (among other things.) 

They're going to need a rifle, as IIIa doesn't really care about buckshot and most pistols, even some rifles. Yes, it's going to hurt, but I'll probably make it.

Anyway, drove by a "tactical store" in Tennesee this weekend. It was very informative. (They are also a Class III dealer.)

That stuff is wickedly, wickedly expensive. I'm betting that I'm better trained and equipped than the hordes, that's why they're the hordes. No food? No fishing gear? In that case, would they even have anything more than a club and a non-working cell phone since they're so unprepared?

Something else is that I'm pretty far from population density. People walking out of cities won't get this far. I can literally hunt deer about 500 yds from where I live. I'd say that proper camo/ghillie is more important than IIIa armor.


----------



## Parrot Quack (Oct 30, 2015)

Poppy said:


> Therefore, I believe that even in the worst case scenario, there will be pockets of electricity all over the country.



That will be our TM16.  You guys do realize, the longer it takes for the flare to hit us, the more prepared the electric companies are going be. Why? Stockholders will demand this behavior and State Capitals will write legislation and ratepayers will have that much less to spend on their systems.

Ya gotta love the benefit of State induced inflation.


----------



## RedLED (Oct 30, 2015)

Poppy said:


> The documentary I mentioned in post #108
> 
> 
> And you responded to it in post # 124
> ...


Poppy,

I dont need a car for this event, as there is no where to go. I just want to stay home and greet the hords, welcome all who drop by, and assist them by telling to help themselves to what I have. It's OK really, the curtain fell to an angry audience, and the show closed early.


----------



## Poppy (Oct 30, 2015)

RedLed,
I don't care if you have a car, nor particularly, if I have one, my point was that trucks will be able to roll, and bring supplies to central locations, and particularly the cities.

I know that today's diesel trucks have computer controlled fuel injectors, and from what I have read, they won't be affected anyway.

Regarding vamps' suggestion of getting around in an old/antique car; little mini-bikes, with 3 and 5 horsepower Briggs and Stratton engines use a magneto to generate spark... no need for an alternator. Dirt bikes too. Bicycle power may be a popular means of transportation, to and from central supply stations for a while. 

I'd like to paint a little more positive picture of American flexibility and ingenuity, (just as our UK friends did during WWII). I alluded to what our friend FensterKarton wrote below...


FensterKarton said:


> Distributed power always suffers from network problems. The solution is to generate at point of use. <SNIP>


 when I pointed out that we have thousands of small and rather large (trailer sized) generators that can be moved and put into service to power essential services, such as water pumping stations. 

I mentioned earlier, that after Super-Storm Sandy that hit the east coast of the US, many gas stations put in back-up generators. If things had gotten worse in my area, and my local station didn't have power, I would have brought my generator to power them up.

On the New York State Thruway ( a toll road) the state installed back up generators to operate the toll booths. 

When I spoke of jet turbine powered generators, some one argued that if the grid was down, they could generate power, but have no way to send it out. Again, my point was... but I obviously didn't make it was... those generators could be moved and installed at a point of use, such as at a water pumping station.

We'll be OK.


----------



## FRITZHID (Oct 30, 2015)

Poppy said:


> RedLed,
> I don't care if you have a car, nor particularly, if I have one, my point was that trucks will be able to roll, and bring supplies to central locations, and particularly the cities.
> 
> I know that today's diesel trucks have computer controlled fuel injectors, and from what I have read, they won't be affected anyway.
> ...



I have to agree with most of that. There are now even hybrid city busses that have the ability to provide supplement power for medical & emergency camps.
This was inspired from the past few hurricane disasters and is a wise practice. 
I've always been a fan of redundancy. I have water, food, ups, genny, and other "assorted" backup supplies. Most of which are designed to either provide for short term issues (hurricanes and the like) OR provide me and mine enough time to evacuate to one of several locations of safety, both near and far. 
Double up on everything, you never know when or what you'll need it.


----------



## KITROBASKIN (Oct 31, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> I am waiting for the hand held drone killer myself.



Battelle Drone Defender?


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 31, 2015)

1DaveN said:


> Thanks for the good info, Poppy. It would be interesting to know, in the worst case, how long to expect normal services like the power grid to be down. *I wonder if it's considered possible for the 12-24 month impact in the original post to actually occur.*





Poppy said:


> Thanks Dave. I also wonder how long of an impact, and to what extent.
> 
> *Therefore, I believe that even in the worst case scenario, there will be pockets of electricity all over the country.*



(Edited by Chump ^^ )

WITH A GRAIN OF SALT:

If it was a global thing....12-24 months would be a miracle to build, transport and implement what we need to provide the most basic electricity to very few people. It would cause irreparable harm to our way of life for the next 100+ years. Lets break it down a little. If only California went dark for... lets say 3 months.... it would be the 8th largest economy in the world coming to a halt. It would cause an instant collapse of the world economy and all fiat currency as we know it. The lose of life and overwhelming lawlessness would be staggering and we would essentially have 1/4 our of our country unprotected and it would serve as a red carpet for those that may take advantage and pose a security threat. In short, it would impact us in unmanageable ways and change the course of the entire planet for the foreseeable future. All we would need is a Carrington event that encounters an ill prepared California and in a month people won't even remember what global warming was.

I do find a _little_ comfort in Poppy's research that at least something is being done.

One thing I am sure of with this topic: *The country needs to be prepared properly and they need to do it now.

*This is something that is possible. There is no way to justify not doing everything that possibly could be done to make sure our country is protected and prepared....... but you know..... Kim Kardashian. A deformed, boring, unintelligent "working girl" ( family friendly forum ) with a net contribution to society of 0. So lets hold off.... at least until this seasons over.....


----------



## RickZ (Oct 31, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> *PRACTICE DRILL:*
> 
> "A massive solar flare just hit earth and caused unprecedented damage to our ( US ) power grid. The entire US is without power. The condition outside of the US power grids is currently unknown. News is spreading from word of mouth and a network of well prepared and informed HAM operators that the best case scenario would be 12 to 24 months until we have a _chance_ for a feeble but functional power grid system being implemented. While functional, it is expected to be overtaxed at best and can only cover about 1/3 of the USA."
> 
> ...



it won't happen today. People will have massive warning. Systems are in place, it wouldn't be the whole country, only cities with mass transformers, many buildings have emergency systems. Water would still work, as would gas.
6volt flashlights make the most sense to me, you can use the batteries for other things, and my rayovac will last -tested, stop it- 72 lumens for 120 hours on alkaline, and I have several 6 volts. Power in lucky cities (medium sized cities first(like mine) then others) would be back in weeks, internet and some cell service would even work. Food wise I'd be at a loss, but otherwise I'd be alright. Certainly won't have a problem with lighting.

The scenario described is in question, some info is outdated and unrealistic.


----------



## RickZ (Oct 31, 2015)

StarHalo said:


> The guy with a box of candles who also has a rainwater collection system and a pantry of bulk foods is going to be a lot better off than the flashlight collector with the water in his toilet tank and some condiments..



Chest of candles, maybe even a closet. Candles today are usually a pathetic variety of paraffin wax, nothing like the wax real candle makers used to make, so please don't think candles are a viable light source today.
Further bulk food needs to be cooked. Good luck.


----------



## Dr. Tweedbucket (Oct 31, 2015)

I didn't read this whole thread, but I'm thinking worst case here. Most electronics have integrated circuits that are static sensitive to some degree. I'm thinking a solar flare may have enough energy to completely wipe everything thing out that has electronics components... which means nothing except old school stuff is going to work. Old pre ECU cars and trucks will probably still work, old motorcycles, maybe even old land line telephones. Anything magnetic based will be wiped out which means every computer. I'm basing this off a documentary that I watched on sun spot activity and solar flares, how they can break away and hit the earth just right to kill all our modern electronics data networks and everything else down.

I'm thinking even our electronically controlled flashlights may be doomed. :sweat:


----------



## bykfixer (Oct 31, 2015)

Parrot Quack said:


> We were prepared. Out here in Northern California, we didn't have a bit of trouble and it was due to.......ya know, I don't know why we didn't have any trouble and everybody knows, 6000+ feet is a long way.



LMBO (family site and all)

Glad you guys weren't affected. 
We had a warm breeze out of the south that day, so it went north of me. But outta the north and it may have gone through my neighborhood. :huh:
But wow! Ya nev-uh know these days.


----------



## SemiMan (Oct 31, 2015)

Dr. Tweedbucket said:


> I didn't read this whole thread, but I'm thinking worst case here. Most electronics have integrated circuits that are static sensitive to some degree. I'm thinking a solar flare may have enough energy to completely wipe everything thing out that has electronics components... which means nothing except old school stuff is going to work. Old pre ECU cars and trucks will probably still work, old motorcycles, maybe even old land line telephones. Anything magnetic based will be wiped out which means every computer. I'm basing this off a documentary that I watched on sun spot activity and solar flares, how they can break away and hit the earth just right to kill all our modern electronics data networks and everything else down.
> 
> I'm thinking even our electronically controlled flashlights may be doomed. :sweat:



Was the documentary called "Solar Flare"?


----------



## bykfixer (Oct 31, 2015)

Dr. Tweedbucket said:


> I didn't read this whole thread, but I'm thinking worst case here. Most electronics have integrated circuits that are static sensitive to some degree. I'm thinking a solar flare may have enough energy to completely wipe everything thing out that has electronics components... which means nothing except old school stuff is going to work. Old pre ECU cars and trucks will probably still work, old motorcycles, maybe even old land line telephones. Anything magnetic based will be wiped out which means every computer. I'm basing this off a documentary that I watched on sun spot activity and solar flares, how they can break away and hit the earth just right to kill all our modern electronics data networks and everything else down.I'm thinking even our electronically controlled flashlights may be doomed. :sweat:



Sounds like my malkoffs will be fine!

Yay! Cars?, eh doc says I need the excersize anyway


----------



## RickZ (Oct 31, 2015)

Dr. Tweedbucket said:


> I didn't read this whole thread, but I'm thinking worst case here. Most electronics have integrated circuits that are static sensitive to some degree. I'm thinking a solar flare may have enough energy to completely wipe everything thing out that has electronics components... which means nothing except old school stuff is going to work. Old pre ECU cars and trucks will probably still work, old motorcycles, maybe even old land line telephones. Anything magnetic based will be wiped out which means every computer. I'm basing this off a documentary that I watched on sun spot activity and solar flares, how they can break away and hit the earth just right to kill all our modern electronics data networks and everything else down.
> 
> I'm thinking even our electronically controlled flashlights may be doomed. :sweat:



Not at all. Swing a powerful magnt over your car. Nothing. Even some cities will still work because of magnetic pulse boxes. This is why the military doesn't use emps. It's only temporary. A few days, maybe a week while the blast is still happening. Anything will PRIMARY batteries will be fine once blast is over. Transformers will fail, and that's the real risk. When they go, citywide blackouts occur. All transformers will need fixing as well as large electronics. 40 years from now everything will be replaced with shielded equipment, then it wouldn't faze us at all. Some cities already have protection. Anything with generators will work after blast stops.


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 31, 2015)

RickZ said:


> The scenario described is in question, some info is outdated and unrealistic.



I do hope I am 100% wrong and you are for the most part right, but Im positive improvements can be made and multiple major cities going dark for an extended or even a short period, I believe, would have catastrophic economic consequences. Now can someone spare me some toilet paper? :duh2:



bykfixer said:


> Sounds like my malkoffs will be fine!



^^Edited by Forrest^^

"If I had to pick 1...." Most definitely. Although I do believe, for the most, part flashlights in general will be OK.


----------



## Poppy (Oct 31, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> (Edited by Chump ^^ )
> 
> WITH A GRAIN OF SALT:
> 
> ...


Forest my friend,
I'll try to set your mind a little more at ease.


> 12-24 months would be a miracle to build, transport and implement what we need to provide the most basic electricity to very few people


I believe that in relatively short order large segments of the population will have access to electricity. Perhaps, not in their homes, but at work. Our industrial centers will have power. For example, in the State of California, there are so many power generation stations that you can't go more than a couple of miles without tripping on one. Look at the map here.  If each power plant reached out just a few miles in each direction, most of the population of the state would be covered. Would there be portions of the state not covered? Perhaps... farmland.

In five months, July 1941 - November 1941, Russia, while fighting a defensive war with Germany, moved 1,500 INDUSTRIES, not just factories, but entire industries, 1,000-3,000 miles inland, then cranked up production 3-8 times as much as before they moved. They built smelting furnaces, made steel, and built tanks and planes in five months.



> It would cause irreparable harm to our way of life for the next 100+ years.


Let's not get too alarmed  
In less than one hundred years... we finished the first transcontinental railroad in 1869, and about 100 years later we walked on the moon! :thumbsup: Forty five years later, we walk around with "Star Trek" technology in our pockets! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

How long will it take to rebuild and replace, idk, 40 thousand transformers? 



> If only California went dark for... lets say 3 months.... it would be the 8th largest economy in the world coming to a halt. It would cause an instant collapse of the world economy and all fiat currency as we know it.


I believe that it is unlikely that all of California would be dark for three months, even in a worse case senario (from solar flares). A more damaging scenario (like the one discussed in the meeting that RedLed attended as a reporter) would be a major earthquake, that destroyed, not only the power grid, but buildings, underground structures such as power conduits, water pipes, gas lines, sewage conduits, bridges, and road-ways. Essentially little of this occurs from solar flares.

I believe that much of the California economy is in their mind/brain trust. And if Russia can move factories, California companies, can have their people board a plane, and be to work inside of a week, somewhere else.



> The lose of life and overwhelming lawlessness would be staggering


When the US went into Iraq, dismantled their communication system, and took out their power, there was some rioting in the streets, despite the fact that the country was at war, and do you know what the store owners did? They banded together, and armed themselves with AK47s, and kept the looters at bay!

When there was looting and rioting in California, do you know what the Korean shop owners did? They banded together, and armed themselves with SKS semi-auto rifles, and kept the looters at bay!

When Japan got hit with a sunami, did anyone try an invasion of their shores? If we had a blackout... I think our navy will be at our shores, not over at Somalia. If there is a perceived terrorist threat, then I imagine that the international flights will be shut down.

All this to say... if there are issues, we'll deal with them.


----------



## Parrot Quack (Oct 31, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> If only California went dark for... lets say 3 months.... it would be the 8th largest economy in the world coming to a halt. It would cause an instant collapse of the world economy and all fiat currency as we know it.



Why is Canada doing so well? Because it has the US to it's South and no other reason. And the same for Finland and how it exists in the European theater. California has so many peaker plants that it's pretty much impossible for even LA to go totally dark.

The same for the story of California and it's economy. The California economy is part and parcel to the economy of the US. Anybody who's into economics knows how California's economy is tied into the American economy so to separate it away from the US is like separating water from oxygen. It ain't gonna happen.

(and yes, just for the record, I know about breaking water into oxygen and hydrogen but it's no longer water)


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 31, 2015)

Im a glass half cracked kind of guy..... Never underestimate the pervasiveness of human incompetence. In short, California going dark for long enough would crash the current world economy. Remember, the markets and fiat currency is just an idea in it's simplest form. Enough people start loosing confidence, speculation and panic sets in. Fiat currency has a 100% failure rate throughout history. The world pegging their currency on the "safe haven" of the dollar is already changing. In 1913 $1.00 was worth $24.03. That simply can't continue, _add in a world altering event...._ and if 2008 was a grain of sand, 2000 and? would be the California coast...It wouldn't be that _exact_ way for the next hundred years, but I believe major negative effects would still be lingering worldwide alongside immense setbacks of were we could of been had we been prepared properly.

All good reading on the above post. *Again, heres hoping Im just cynical..... I really do hope your FAR closer to being right than I am.
*
:shrug:


----------



## ForrestChump (Oct 31, 2015)

nightshade said:


> Most of this information is only semi-correct.



http://i.imgur.com/tgW7fSO.jpg

:tinfoil:


----------



## Parrot Quack (Oct 31, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> *Again, heres hoping Im just cynical..... I really do hope your FAR closer to being right than I am.
> *
> :shrug:



Me thinks cynicism has taken over. Assuming no drugs, four or five years in the mountains will cure that thinking. California power grid has been under intense legislative demands and has been for decades. California's economy is what it is for one single reason and one single reason only, and that's because it's part of the American economy. Anything that happens to California, happens to the U.S. and with the FEDs and their need for money borrowing at pretty much zero interest, solar flares or not, California isn't going dark. 

Third world countries, not so much.


----------



## Woods Walker (Oct 31, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Ooh! I like those and need some shoes anyway. Cool!
> 
> WW, I nominate you for squad leader!  You're welcome in my zombie bunker. I'll pour you a glass as society goes down the drain.



No brother..... The drinks are on me. So how do you like your Hemlock (conifer tree not kill you dead weed) tea?


----------



## magellan (Oct 31, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> No brother..... The drinks are on me. So how do you like your Hemlock (conifer tree not kill you dead weed) tea?



Sounds good to me.

Well, we humans as a species didn't really work out, anyway, so time for us to go the way all failed species go.

But we had a good run...while it lasted...

As they say on Wall St., it was a short but good time! LOL


----------



## SemiMan (Nov 1, 2015)

I like the war analogy. We have had wars that devastated much of Europe and they rebuilt in a whole lot less than 100 years.


----------



## Woods Walker (Nov 1, 2015)

magellan said:


> Well, we humans as a species didn't really work out, anyway, so time for us to go the way all failed species go.



"we"......"us to go"...... Do you have a mouse in your pocket? I have too much invested in gear to go extinct with you. :laughing:


----------



## Parrot Quack (Nov 1, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> I like the war analogy. We have had wars that devastated much of Europe and they rebuilt in a whole lot less than 100 years.



Politicians were much different in those days.


----------



## KITROBASKIN (Nov 1, 2015)

Species don't fail; they get replaced.


----------



## magellan (Nov 1, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> "we"......"us to go"...... Do you have a mouse in your pocket? I have too much invested in gear to go extinct with you. :laughing:



LOL

Well, it may take a while, or it might not, depending on which scenario you like.


----------



## magellan (Nov 1, 2015)

KITROBASKIN said:


> Species don't fail; they get replaced.



Yes. But what would be Homo sapiens' immediate replacement?


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Nov 1, 2015)

I remember in the 2000ad comic years ago in an Future Shock, Potatoes had attained sentience and had developed time travel, and were going back in history to seek revenge for there for-bearers who were boiled, roasted, fried, and mashed at the hands of humans.

*I for one, welcome our new Potato Overloads.*

John.



magellan said:


> Yes. But what would be Homo sapiens' immediate replacement?


----------



## Parrot Quack (Nov 1, 2015)

magellan said:


> Yes. But what would be Homo sapiens' immediate replacement?



.........Roaches?


----------



## magellan (Nov 1, 2015)

Ha-ha!

That's what my evolution professor thought.


----------



## Parrot Quack (Nov 1, 2015)

.........


----------



## RickZ (Nov 2, 2015)

In this specific OP example, there is an inverse relationship with the magnitude of the solar flares' destruction and, how many days/weeks we have of a warning. Some sun spots come out of nowhere, but they are only enough to throw off nothing. Counterwise, a cataclysmic type world wide even would be predictable weeks in advance, and much of the harm would never happen.


----------



## SemiMan (Nov 2, 2015)

-----


----------



## more_vampires (Nov 2, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> No brother..... The drinks are on me. So how do you like your Hemlock (conifer tree not kill you dead weed) tea?



Heh! I saw "Hemlock" and thought "whaaa?" 

So what's the trick for the safe Hemlock? Looks like you're boiling the needles? I'm told that same trick applies to pine needles (and it's a source of vitamin C.)

I must admit, WW, you sure seem to know a lot more than I about foraging. My best foraging involves bows and bullets. Can you suggest any good books on the subject of wild edibles?

Vegetarian: That's Native American for "bad hunter."


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Nov 2, 2015)

Hopefully it will only be an small solar flare, just enough to do enough damage to wake up the goverments and energy companys to get their act together to harden our power systems enough to limit the damage of an bigger solar flare, But as they say the Army is only ever ready to fight the last war, not the next one.

John.


----------



## Woods Walker (Nov 2, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Heh! I saw "Hemlock" and thought "whaaa?"
> 
> So what's the trick for the safe Hemlock? Looks like you're boiling the needles? I'm told that same trick applies to pine needles (and it's a source of vitamin C.)
> 
> ...



First lets get this ID locked down for everyone in TV land. Hemlock the weed will kill you. Dead. No cure. Just dead and badly. We are talking about Hemlock the conifer tee.





Notice the flat evergreen needles.





Don't boil the needles. What you want to do is boil the water, then allow it to cool for a minute and then add the needles with kettle off the heat source. Allow to steep for 5-10 minutes. Pine needles are also good to go.

The Peterson field guide wild edible plants is a good basic one. The pro to wild edibles is often they don't fight or runaway. You don't need a rifle or bow. No need for a figure 4 trap or snare. However never eat any wild edible unless you're 100% certain of the ID. Also I consider them supplemental aka opportunistic goodies. Have at least 1 gallon of water per day per person and enough food before a disaster strikes IMHO.


----------



## Parrot Quack (Nov 2, 2015)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Hopefully it will only be an small solar flare, just enough to do enough damage to wake up the goverments and energy companys to get their act together to harden our power systems enough to limit the damage of an bigger solar flare, But as they say the Army is only ever ready to fight the last war, not the next one.
> 
> John.



I can't speak for the UK but in California, USA, we have everything from wind, thermal, photo voltaic, hydro, natural gas and nuclear backed with natural gas peaker generation centers sufficient to add to the city's needs and the system of renewable energy sources is constantly being contracted for and built.

Breakers are thrown via computer and manually as the new system has been in place for a few years now. The same for the natural gas distribution system. Wishing the rest of the world good luck with this issue.


----------



## JS94521 (Nov 2, 2015)

How did this thread go so long and not mention Ted Koppel's book "Lights out"? (No link, not shilling for Ted.)

Not that he says anything new, but apparently coming from an 'establishment' guy the issue is getting some attention.


----------



## Parrot Quack (Nov 2, 2015)

JS94521 said:


> How did this thread go so long and not mention Ted Koppel's book "Lights out"? (No link, not shilling for Ted.)



This article coming from the Chicago Sun-Times. Just saying, I wonder how much Ted is being paid for this sensationalist type of tome as the article touts his book signing tour.

We had lightening in the neighborhood today. We had a small tornado down in the valley. Trees and power utility lines snapping and being blown down onto cars. Texas, Louisiana and South Carolina are flooding. A Republican may become president. Come this Spring, the Mississippi is going flood......again. Hurricanes are coming. Wind blowing, rain, flooding as the beat goes on and yet, the magnetic field is getting ready to flip. The ice is receding in the Arctic yet there's more ice in Antarctica. The super volcano in Yellowstone may blow as everybody in the San Fransisco Bay Area is waiting for one of the many faults to go. Shootings, knife attacks, the flu, fires, mud slides, bad medical diagnoses, car crashes as public instructors are bedding our children. Some 50M people die each year in the world.....am I next? Just saying, the panic list is endless.

......................................:tinfoil:

(that's a tin cap above as aliens are trying to steal my brain)


----------



## LetThereBeLight! (Nov 2, 2015)

And the insane thing is many nuclear power plants have been built on both the San Andreas and New Madrid Fault Lines.

Coincidence? I think not.

If a quake hits, we'll have our own Fukoshimas. We have met the enemy and it is indeed us. I pray foolproof shutdown procedures are in place should power go out in a quake situation. If not, other technologies can be put in place as plants are shut down. But I obviously have no power to sign Executive Orders to this effect!

I also pray we continue to discuss lighting tactics & strategies to implement because they may end up saving lives in certain situations.


----------



## more_vampires (Nov 3, 2015)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> If a quake hits, we'll have our own Fukoshimas. We have met the enemy and it is indeed us. I pray foolproof shutdown procedures are in place should power go out in a quake situation. If not, other technologies can be put in place as plants are shut down. But I obviously have no power to sign Executive Orders to this effect!


Modern pebble bed reactors aren't supposed to contain enough fuel to breach under worst case.

Modern nuke plants have "panic buttons" to stop it all cold. It's a process involving explosive bolts.

If you see the glow, it's already too late.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation


> The characteristic blue glow of an underwater nuclear reactor is due to Cherenkov radiation. It is named after Soviet scientist Pavel Alekseyevich Cherenkov, the 1958 Nobel Prize winner who was the first to detect it experimentally.[1]​


----------



## Parrot Quack (Nov 3, 2015)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> And the insane thing is many nuclear power plants have been built on both the San Andreas and New Madrid Fault Lines.
> 
> Coincidence? I think not.



None of California's nuclear plants are on the San Andreas. My understanding, California has one active commercial nuclear power plant (Diablo Canyon) that's on the Pacific coast. Please, read it's history before turning it into a disaster.


----------



## more_vampires (Nov 3, 2015)

Never understood the fear or fearmongering concerning nuke plants. Hydroelectric is far, far more dangerous and has claimed many more lives than nuclear power accidents.

The hippies seem to like hydro and hate nuclear. They've got it backwards.

With our current safety designs and strict oversight by the NRC (Nuclear Regulatory Commission,) a Chernobyl is never going to happen again... not in the US, anyway.

I'd be more worried about a giant hot CME (coronal mass ejection) hitting Earth just right and causing a geosolar storm.

That or major meteorite strikes, perhaps a chunk of Iridium the size of Texas?


----------



## SemiMan (Nov 3, 2015)

CANDU are meltdown proof. Liquid metal breeder reactors are pretty much inherently safe. Thorium instead of uranium.

Nuclear is here and now and green. Coal kills tens of thousands. Even solar is not completely green.


----------



## more_vampires (Nov 3, 2015)

I enjoyed reading this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor


> LFTRs differ from other power reactors in almost every aspect: they use thorium rather than uranium, operate at low pressure, receive fuel by pumping without shutdown, entail no risk of nuclear meltdown, use a salt coolant and produce higher operating temperatures.[5]​ These distinctive characteristics give rise to many potential advantages, as well as design challenges.



Power with no bombs.


> Unlike mined uranium, mined thorium does not have a fissile isotope.



Fuel recycling! Yay!


> At the end of the reactor fuel life, the spent fuel salt can be reprocessed to recover the bred U-233 to start up new LFTRs.



Better waste management


> About 83% of the radioactive waste has a half-life in hours or days, with the remaining 17% requiring 300 year storage in geologically stable confinement to reach background levels.[



A reactor called the Fuji MSR is looking at about 2.85 cents per kwh.

A relative of mine in the nuclear power industry told me a couple years ago that "we'll never use thorium reactors." Cited reason? Price per unit of energy. He said that business is business and money is money, if it's cheaper to burn gasoline to turn the turbines then that's what the industry will do.


----------



## jorn (Nov 3, 2015)

Never say never. We have been running thorium in a reactor in Norway for some years now.


----------



## Parrot Quack (Nov 3, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> The hippies seem to like hydro and hate nuclear. They've got it backwards.



Actually, they hate hydro also as hydro requires damming up the streams to make a waterway that can be used by the water-driven turbos. At this point, I think they're only down with doing without.


----------



## more_vampires (Nov 3, 2015)

Parrot Quack said:


> Actually, they hate hydro also


Hydro. That was a hippie joke. :naughty:


----------



## Parrot Quack (Nov 3, 2015)

Okay, I'm dumb.  Didn't go there.


----------



## Vanishing (Nov 4, 2015)

Is the drill over? Just came out of the fox hole to check...


----------



## Tejasandre (Nov 4, 2015)

Vanishing said:


> Is the drill over? Just came out of the fox hole to check...



Hope so, I'm almost out of beer.


----------



## Vanishing (Nov 4, 2015)

Tejasandre said:


> Hope so, I'm almost out of beer.


Now we can continue onto another DRILL, real DRILL:
"Practice Drill: Beer just ran out." :mecry:


----------



## ForrestChump (Nov 4, 2015)

Vanishing said:


> Is the drill over? Just came out of the fox hole to check...



Did you see your shadow?


----------



## Vanishing (Nov 4, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Did you see your shadow?


Selfie below:






On topic:
If you were to "stockpile" batteries, would you go for LI-Ion or eneloops.
Just read a topic where Li-ion exploding, that is kinda scary...


----------



## more_vampires (Nov 4, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Did you see your shadow?



Nope, overcast here. 6 more weeks of Apocalypse. 



> "Practice Drill: Beer just ran out."


ZOMG! PANIIIIIIIIIIC!!!!!!



Vanishing said:


> On topic:
> If you were to "stockpile" batteries, would you go for LI-Ion or eneloops.
> Just read a topic where Li-ion exploding, that is kinda scary...


Eneloops, a poster recently reported that untouched Eneloops straight from the pack had about 25% left from 2008.


----------



## ForrestChump (Nov 4, 2015)

Vanishing said:


> Selfie below:
> On topic:
> If you were to "stockpile" batteries, would you go for LI-Ion or eneloops.
> Just read a topic where Li-ion exploding, that is kinda scary...



The absolute optimal batteries for storage are AA or AAA Energizer Lithiums with a shelf life of 20 years.

READ A LOT: With a quality charger and a quality Li-Ion cell with a little common sense *greatly* reduces your chances of having an "event".
Li-Ions also degrade in storage and are not an optimal long term solution. Eneloops would be far superior for this scenario although, in my opinion, I have seen enough ballooning ( venting ) rubber switches and potential to blow a boot cover that they wouldn't be my first pick. The small occasional venting is benign but they are not designed for sealed electronics. A quality charger seems to lower the odds as well.

All that said, my choice is $60 for 50 shipped from Battery Station. Always buy USA CR123's and practice good judgment, basically, follow the battery warnings on the light / box and you'll be OK. Shipping seems to take a week and a couple days.



more_vampires said:


> Nope, overcast here. 6 more weeks of Apocalypse.



Yeah, per the thread title, we could even have 2 more years to debate the joy of space weather....that is.....if the sun holds out.....


----------



## more_vampires (Nov 4, 2015)

> we could even have 2 more years to debate the joy of space weather....that is.....if the sun holds out......


AFAIK, little yellow suns like ours are extremely stable and long lived. The only thing to worry about is if today's the last day. 

This beer apocalypse situation is unaccaptable! BRB, store!


----------



## ForrestChump (Nov 4, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> AFAIK, little yellow suns like ours are extremely stable and long lived. The only thing to worry about is if today's the last day.
> 
> This beer apocalypse situation is unaccaptable! BRB, store!




No no, I mean if it solar sneezes on us.... be careful on that beer run too, last time I went I had a surprise sleepover......and it wasn't at a friends house...


----------



## jmwking (Nov 4, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Never understood the fear or fearmongering concerning nuke plants. Hydroelectric is far, far more dangerous and has claimed many more lives than nuclear power accidents.
> 
> The hippies seem to like hydro and hate nuclear. They've got it backwards.
> 
> ...



Floods last days. A few years to pick up and rebuild. Meltdowns last centuries before you can go back in. There _is_ a difference...

-jk


----------



## magellan (Nov 4, 2015)

Hah. If Facebook goes down it's a good thing. LOL


----------



## magellan (Nov 4, 2015)

Vanishing said:


> Selfie below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL

Great photo! 

He looks skeptical. No doubt he's reflecting on the transitoriness of human civilization compared to groundhogs.


----------



## LetThereBeLight! (Nov 4, 2015)

magellan said:


> Hah. If Facebook goes down it's a good thing. LOL



And an even BETTER thing would be if Facebook STAYED down!


----------



## Butters4sure (Nov 5, 2015)

StarHalo said:


> The guy with a box of candles who also has a rainwater collection system and a pantry of bulk foods is going to be a lot better off than the flashlight collector with the water in his toilet tank and some condiments..



can I get a amen


----------



## Woods Walker (Nov 5, 2015)

Butters4sure said:


> can I get a amen



No way! Heretics.....


----------



## bykfixer (Nov 5, 2015)

I was given about 200 packets of Gatorade and a 10 gallon cooler. Figuring if power is out and there's no ac for extended periods our electrolite etc needs are covered for a while.


----------



## more_vampires (Nov 6, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> I was given about 200 packets of Gatorade and a 10 gallon cooler. Figuring if power is out and there's no ac for extended periods our electrolite etc needs are covered for a while.


Yeah, but does it have what plants crave?

http://brawndo.com/
Brawndo! The Thirst Mutilator!


----------



## bykfixer (Nov 6, 2015)

Got me...I'm not a plant.

I only play one on tv.


----------



## more_vampires (Nov 6, 2015)

Seriously, I think the "Idiocracy" scenario is far more dangerous than a solar flare. That's just my opinion.


----------



## Kestrel (Nov 6, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Seriously, I think the "Idiocracy" scenario is far more dangerous than a solar flare.


Why do you think we have mods here, lol.


----------



## ForrestChump (Nov 6, 2015)

magellan said:


> Hah. If Facebook goes down it's a good thing. LOL



+1

Hated it since I first heard of it.

I did however offer them my a facebook profile for a flat sum of $250,000 being that they would be selling my face and information to advertisers.

I haven't heard back yet with a counter offer.


----------



## ForrestChump (Nov 15, 2015)

Dear Gosh,

Don't let the thread go with the last comment being about facebook.

I'll never forgive myself.


----------



## Vanishing (Nov 16, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Dear Gosh,
> 
> Don't let the thread go with the last comment being about facebook.
> 
> I'll never forgive myself.


However your last comment is still about facebook... so is mine.. hahaha


----------



## ForrestChump (Nov 17, 2015)

LOL

Just got a Malkoff MD2 M61LL..........

Now I ain't scured of the sun no moe.

:rock:


----------



## MrJino (Nov 17, 2015)

If a massive solar flare hit earth, wouldn't electronics be useless?


----------



## ForrestChump (Nov 17, 2015)

MrJino said:


> If a massive solar flare hit earth, wouldn't electronics be useless?



I think we got that one covered.....or at least addressed with best guesses.


----------



## Taz80 (Nov 17, 2015)

Yes we do, completely covered. Some say yes some say no, I say keep some matches and lighters on hand just in case.


----------



## ForrestChump (Nov 17, 2015)

Taz80 said:


> Yes we do, completely covered. Some say yes some say no, I say keep some matches and lighters on hand just in case.




I could just see us suffering from withdrawal resorting to custom built lanterns and oil lamps.....HAHA

You are correct, we have accomplished the exact same result as every other thread, not much. Got some traffic running through here though...

Im over it light wise...HDS....Malkoff....possibly even complex lights, I don't think there is enough _length_ to do any damage from the sun.....

Now batteries.....there is a person who _claims_ on another forum that they were part of a test. They said the lights were fine....but the batteries were completely hit or miss.

Maybe I started with the wrong topic...


----------



## ForrestChump (Dec 8, 2015)

http://northerncalifornian.com/cont...-producing-superflare-can-end-life-our-planet


----------



## electronFarmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Well I've read this entire thread. I came looking for such a thread because we recently had high winds which blew out the candles, I mean electricity, at my little shop. I've read about EMP, solar induced and otherwise before but had not taken any steps before. So, upon entering my little shop and noticing no juice I started thinking. And yes the first thing I did was reach for my flashlight, holstered at my side.
The next thing I did was reach for a bigger flashlight that would tailstand, don't have an official lantern. 
I have several battery backups, UPS, generally thought of as "for computers." I also have a small desk lamp that is LED powered by a wall wart. So I put those two together and had light in my office. All of that happened in less than 5 minutes.
The only downside to this was that the UPS would let out a 3 burst chirp every 2 minutes,




because the 120 volt wall receptacle wasn't feeding it any electrons. Actually it wasn't even plugged in. But it worked.

What I learned: 1) I am going to operate on one of these UPS's to remove the beeper. 2) I have done it in the past but need to do it again, where I extend the wires to the battery to add, at least 1, more battery (deep cycle lead acid) in parallel to the internal battery. I know that in very modern UPS's the charging algorithm would probably complain about the different battery chemistries, gel cell vs lead acid, but charging the lead acid separately and hooking it up when need should take care of that for short term needs. 
3) I have, but have not yet installed, a moderately sized solar panel. I need to fix that situation for longer term needs. 
I don't really think of myself as a "prepper" but I'm certain that I am more prepared than most (read 90%) people. I have the capacity to cook with propane, have a moderate supply of food and water and most important I have, or at least try to use, a brain.
My quasi business partner (we share shop space) is an electrimagician and has had a lot of jobs over the past 2 years converting businesses to LED lighting. Since most of these LED's are made in China with a fairly high failure rate, we get to keep them, often it is one LED failed in a series and I can fix that. His supplier recently gave us a bunch of the "stuff" that simply wasn't selling. This includes a bunch of 12 volt "bulbs." 
I think these will be suitable in this grid down scenario.
I think I am in possession of around 4000 individual LEDs now...


----------



## PiperBob (Feb 17, 2017)

I have a box of candles -- probably enough to get by for a year. But in the event of a year long power outage, lack of light will be near the bottom of the list of problems that people face.


----------



## etc (Feb 17, 2017)

someone has been watching "knowing" ... 

in a TSHTF situation, you want the lowest lumens you can deal with. And not due to runtime or battery conservation, but due to high-powered lights attracting attention.

I went through a multiple day power outage circa 2008. Snow storm and stuff brought down lines. I think the most powerful light at the time I had was Malkoff M60 or maybe M60 SHO. And the Malkoff Maglites. Anyway, I fired up one of these lights and the neiborhood went silent, I could feel it. It was a WTF moment, priceless. You mean we are sitting here with 3 lumen POS incan $2.99 lights and candles and cell phones as lights and this dude is blasting stuff like daylight?

It's a huge attention magnet.

To narrow it down, I think 15 lumens is about right and about max without alerting the whole world that you have stuff and goods and likely water and food also.

You do not want to walk around and blast things with 900 lumens or more. Even inside the residence.


----------



## PiperBob (Feb 18, 2017)

etc said:


> someone has been watching "knowing" ...
> 
> in a TSHTF situation, you want the lowest lumens you can deal with. And not due to runtime or battery conservation, but due to high-powered lights attracting attention.
> 
> .



i suspect it might go both ways. In the context of the thread, with a 12 month power outage there will be people out looking for food at some point. If it's me, I'm going to be looking for empty houses.


----------



## jorn (Feb 19, 2017)

Im not going "looking" for food. i know where the "easy to get" food is in the area, so i just go out and get it f i really need it. And ofcourse share with the neighbours if they need some. If i walk out the door, it will take me 30 min to get back home with some fish. And im not running out of fishing gear anytime soon. This little pile of fishing gear was in my bathroom  





And there is so mutch moose in the area that they are involved in car crashes in a daily basis (no predators keeping them in check). So some rifles and some fishing gear might help feed pepole for a loooong time.


----------

