# Breathable waterproof jackets



## EV_007 (Sep 5, 2007)

With Fall and Winter right around the corner I've been looking to get a new coat. I am looking at acquiring a beathable/waterproof shell that will keep me warm and dry without excessive se=weating.

Is the whole GoreTex and other material/treatments what they are all cracked up to be?

Any ideas, opinions? I like the look and feel of some of the Northface coats.


----------



## Dr Jekell (Sep 5, 2007)

The problem with these so called Breathable jackets is that what you put on underneath can contain sweat eg sweatshirt, polarfleece, wool jumper.

Your best bet to reduce sweating is to use less layers but then you have to problem of being colder.

Wearing a cotton Tshirt as your base layer help keep you comfortable when you are sweating.

To sum it up there is no easy fix & you just have to decide on wether you want to be warm & risk sweating or to be slightly cold and not sweat.

Unless it is sweating problem for what you are doing I wouldn't worry about it.

BTW Goretex is a nice fabric & rather easy to care for. Just put it in the drier every few months and once or twice a season (depending on use & how dirty it gets) just use a dedicated cleaner and waterproofing liquid and it will last a life time given propper care.


----------



## lightsandknives (Sep 5, 2007)

Dr Jekell said:


> The problem with these so called Breathable jackets is that what you put on underneath can contain sweat eg sweatshirt, polarfleece, wool jumper.
> 
> Your best bet to reduce sweating is to use less layers but then you have to problem of being colder.
> 
> ...




I've heard climbers refer to cotton as the "death fabric" because it gets wet and stays wet and as temperatures drop, it makes you cold. Polypropalene wicks moisture away from your body to help keep you dry.

Here's a good article on dressing for the outdoors

I have a couple of Gore-tex jackets and they do a nice job of keeping you dry and providing pretty good ventilation.


----------



## Alpine (Sep 5, 2007)

EV_007 said:


> Is the whole GoreTex and other material/treatments what they are all cracked up to be?



In short, yes. I got my first Gore-Tex shell 10 years or so ago and have never looked back. My latest rain jacket is a Marmot Oracle. It's very light and fits well. Still gives good coverage during activity and no swimming in sweat during cooldown. As long as you wear breathable layers, that is.

I don't know anyone personally who has complained about North Face stuff. It's good gear.


----------



## chmsam (Sep 5, 2007)

Treat your Gore Tex well and it's worth it. My parka is ancient but still a joy to wear. Do what it says on the label if for no other reason than they are expensive to replace.

In extreme weather, cotton may not be the best choice, but in moderate climates it is OK as a base layer. Serious cold leads me toward other choices like silk ($$$ but light weight and works well) or a synthetic base layer (cheaper but needs to be taken care of more carefully -- I'm cheap and went that route). Basic theory is that you do not want to get to the point where you are sweating. That can get you wet, which can get you cold, which can get you dead. Take off a layer before you start to sweat.

Don't forget that the head, hands, and feet are responsible for much of the heat loss. Cover them well and you'd be amazed at how much lighter you can go with the other layers.

Also remember that the more layers you have, the more options you have all year long.


----------



## Illum (Sep 5, 2007)

I have yet to hit a jacket thats both breathable and waterproof...sounds good


----------



## greenlight (Sep 6, 2007)

I'm all about gore tex, that stuff is great, even dental floss.


----------



## fnmag (Sep 6, 2007)

GoreTex is great and I highly recommend it. Especially the latest Gore XCR. In my experience nothing compares to it. There are number of high quality outdoor clothiers about who offer their own brand of waterproof/breathable clothes but I've never found one that is the equal of actual GoreTex.


----------



## greenstuffs (Sep 6, 2007)

I have found out that the best goretex is the ones sold at the BX or army surplus. Yes the ones used by the US troops. Great fabrics, built like a tank with very well made threads and use of double layer of rugged nylon in elbows and knees. I always carry a parka in my car, mine was free given to me by a friend in the Air Force. But they are great and they are better stuff than north face. With a bunch of pockets to keep dry your stuff. The new Navy Seal version has mag pouches but you can use them for flashlight and cellphone very neat. They sell these in black if you don't like wearing camo like the Hillbillies at www.uscav.com 

Actually the north face stuff is a knock off of the US Gen 1, 2 ECWCS system and also they blatantly copied the USMC SPEAR Fleece jacket, well they made the rugged shoulders for the purpose to protect the fleece from the nylon when worn under the Parka, North Face just thought it was cool and it works as bunch of college kids wears them with their back packs. I buy the real stuff made in USA i pass the $400 goretex from sri lanka or vietnam. I do believe North Face makes good stuff but you can do better with your money. If you are paying top dollar demand for top dollar appearal. 
Of course you may look like a hill billy if you wear the woodland gortex but the new marpat is really cool . The only drawback is that the search and rescue team will have a hard time to find you if you get lost when wearing these. 
SPEAR JACKET






Cheap Knock Off


----------



## Hikaru (Sep 6, 2007)

Gore-tex (or the alternatives) is worth it if you're going to get stuck in more 10 min of hard rain or 40 min of light rain.
Gore-tex is based around a polymer membrane that has pores small enough to block liquid water drops and large enough to pass water vapor. For a long time Gore had a patent that prevented alternatives, but that seems to have passed now and many different companies are coming out with their own porous membrane fabrics. REI has Elements, for example. 
The membrane is not very durable so it needs to be protected by (sandwiched between) more durable fabrics (usually heavy nylon). This makes the whole thing fairly heavy and stiff. Some recent jackets have tried to improve on this by making the innermost layer only a light mesh or an array of plastic bumps directly applied to the goretex to reduce wear. (These are usually termed 2 or 2.5 layer fabrics.)
If you aren't going to be in heavy rain, you should also take a look at some of the so-called "soft" shells. They're like a traditional fleece jacket with a highly water resistant outer layer. Breathable, stretchable, tough, light, and decently water resistant.


----------



## shakeylegs (Sep 6, 2007)

Of all the waterproof/breathable fabrics, eVent is the most breathable by far. Goretex Packlight and XCR are both very good with XCR being a bit tougher. Marmot's waterproof/breathable jackets also perform pretty well. There are a whole host of generic waterproof/breathable fabrics now in use and most of those perform about the same. Guess the right jacket depends upon your needs. If you are very active in highly humid conditions or a very heavy downpour, the advantages of waterproof/breathable may be lost. 
Good waterproof/breathables vent away some of your perspiration when the humidity inside your jacket exceeds that outside. They won't vent all your persiration if you are very active. Pit zips, a front 2way zip, etc, can be the best way to vent excess perspiration. 
Near and below freezing, they may not perform so well. Also, in a heavy downpour, they won't breath at all because the pours of the jacket are blocked by rain soaking the outside of the jacket. Here again, pit zips can come in handy. 
If you expect waterproof/breathables to cut the wind, vent some perspiration under dry cool conditions, and keep water out when the downpour comes, then they are for you. If you want breathability in highly humid or downpour conditions, forget it. Buy a urethane coated jacket with lots of venting zippers and don't move around a whole lot. 

Check these sources out for some other perspectives:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi...tegory_display?cid=46&cat=Clothing - Raingear
and
http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/clothing.html#rainshell
and
http://www.outdoors.org/publications/outdoors/2006/breatheasy.cfm

Find the shell that best suits your activity.


----------



## barkingmad (Sep 6, 2007)

Most (all?) GoreTex is not as breathable as eVent - the GoreTex Paclite is ok but I would still wear eVent in preference and remember to wash both in proper cleaners (i.e. not in with the normal wash).

As for base layers - cotton is certainly not recommended - better tp wear a synthetic base layer or better still merino wool (look for Smartwool / Icebreaker etc.).


----------



## Coop (Sep 6, 2007)

I have 3 breathable jackets:

Black Bear: better than the usual non-breathable jackets
Tenson MPC: better than the Black Bear
Northface Hyvent: better than the Tenson MPC

and there are other materials that are better (but total overkill for the climate I live in). When I bought my northface jacket I tried a lot of different jackets first. The northface hyvent jackets have the best price/quality/performance ratio. But YMMV... I didn't have much choice in models, as not all their products come in XXL (I need it for my shoulders, not my beergut, honestly) Fjallraven makes great stuff too, but over here it's quite a bit more expensive.

And again, pay attention to the layers under the jacket too. Merino wool is great but expensive (I sleep under Merino ). Fleece will do nicely too...


----------



## ringzero (Sep 6, 2007)

EV_007 said:


> With Fall and Winter right around the corner I've been looking to get a new coat. I am looking at acquiring a beathable/waterproof shell that will keep me warm and dry without excessive se=weating....Is the whole GoreTex and other material/treatments what they are all cracked up to be?




The short answer is no, GoreTex and similar fabrics aren't all they're cracked up to be.

I base this opinion on having owned garments featuring several different generations of GoreTex. Also have owned garments featuring fabrics from several of the GoreTex competitors or clones.

My real world observations:

-GoreTex and its clones do "breathe" marginally better than urethane coated nylon rainwear, but not enough to make a practical difference in many outdoor scenarios. Strenuous activities will cause sensible moisture accumulation inside a GoreTex garment.

-However, well-made garments featuring GoreTex and its clones are typically more durable than coated nylon rainwear. Even good quality coated nylon rainwear may remain rainproof for only a season of use before the coating wears off enough to allow leakage. A well-built GoreTex jacket can remain rainproof after years of usage.

In my experience North Face gear is generally of good quality, but rather expensive. It may not the best gear available, but is usually well-designed and well-built. I doubt that you'd go wrong buying any North Face parka.

On the other hand, there are GoreTex clone parkas available that will provide 99% of the functionality of a North Face parka for less than half the price. I've had good experiences with both Columbia outerwear and with the Campmor house brand breathable outerwear. Both are available for a fraction of the cost of North Face outerwear.

.


----------



## js (Sep 6, 2007)

I'm going to have to agree with what others have said.

The so-called "breathable" shells, even the best ones, really aren't all that breatheable. If you have to have an outer layer capable of taking you through hard rain for 40+ minutes, then you have no choice, but when you're working hard, hiking, climbing, and so on, you're going to sweat, and the sweat is going to stay mostly trapped under the hard shell. I always have to reply on the arm pit zips and other manual ventilation techniques to do moisture management in these situations.

But, for most people, a *SOFT SHELL* is a better choice. I have a Cloud Veil Serendipity jacket with Scholler 3X dry, and it is freaking amazing. If I get all sweaty from cross country skiing or running or hiking outdoors in the winter, I will actually dry off when wearing that jacket and good base and insulation layers (NOT cotton). With my hard shell? Forget it. No chance of that. I'd have to remove the hard shell.

That said, a hard shell is realyl nice to have, and cuts wind a lot better than a soft shell. If I'm just going to work, or for a nice easy stroll, the hard shell is my choice if its raining or windy, with my Patagonia R3 jacket underneath. And if I then add my R2 vest beneath that, with a baselayer, I am ready for the worst most nasty weather winter can dish out. And check out Ibex wool baselayers. Avoid the stinkiness that developes with synthetics. Although, I still love my Marmot and Patagonia baselayers, especially my silk-weight stuff.

Anyway, there are many, many choices, and many approaches on how to handle all of this various stuff. For me, layering has worked best, but in many cases, a single do-it-all jacket is their preference. My favorite peice of gear is my R3 jacket--not sold anymore, unfortunately. I love the regulator fleece. It's what converted me away from wool. Before that, I still preferred wool to fleece, but with the regulator fleece, I changed my mind.

Anyway, good luck!


----------



## fnmag (Sep 6, 2007)

Schoeller 3X dry is great stuff. I'd recommend it for a "soft shell". 
However, depending on your needs, if it's a "hard shell" that you want, buy a quality garment with GoreTex XCR. 
A little OT. If you're new to this type of clothing, be wary of North Face goods. They built their name and reputation on quality USA mfg goods. 
That is no longer the case. BEWARE: if you do not buy from a reputable business, but use Ebay etc...there are a "ton" of North Face knockoffs. So many in fact that I wouldn't buy a NF jacket unless I could visually inspect it. 
YMMV


----------



## shakeylegs (Sep 6, 2007)

fnmag said:


> Schoeller 3X dry is great stuff. I'd recommend it for a "soft shell".
> However, depending on your needs, if it's a "hard shell" that you want, buy a quality garment with GoreTex XCR.
> A little OT. If you're new to this type of clothing, be wary of North Face goods. They built their name and reputation on quality USA mfg goods.
> That is no longer the case. BEWARE: if you do not buy from a reputable business, but use Ebay etc...there are a "ton" of North Face knockoffs. So many in fact that I wouldn't buy a NF jacket unless I could visually inspect it.
> YMMV



A friend walking through a chinese flea market near Hong Kong picked up a "Patagonia" shell for $20 USD. Can't speak to it's authenticity - it looked "real" - but almost all the top clothing designers now have production in China. Chinese factories are capable of a wide range of quality. 
For years, the North Face has had production overseas, importing items, then finishing one seam and sewing in tags which qualified for "made in USA" imprint. If you want a made in USA product stick with the smaller outfits and pay the premium. If that's not so important, go to a place like Sierratradingpost online and pick up a name brand overrun at a substantial discount.


----------



## EV_007 (Sep 6, 2007)

Wow, thanks for all your replies. I've done the flashaholic thing and bought both, er, five I should say.

I got the Marnot Precip and Oracle for rainwear that I can layer. and The North face Hyvent and GoreTex flavors.

I was surprised at how thin the North Face jacket was compared to a Columbia one a friend had.

Now for beamshots, I mean real world testing..... LOL


----------



## EV_007 (Sep 7, 2007)

shakeylegs said:


> Of all the waterproof/breathable fabrics, eVent is the most breathable by far. Goretex Packlight and XCR are both very good with XCR being a bit tougher. Marmot's waterproof/breathable jackets also perform pretty well. There are a whole host of generic waterproof/breathable fabrics now in use and most of those perform about the same. Guess the right jacket depends upon your needs. If you are very active in highly humid conditions or a very heavy downpour, the advantages of waterproof/breathable may be lost.
> Good waterproof/breathables vent away some of your perspiration when the humidity inside your jacket exceeds that outside. They won't vent all your persiration if you are very active. Pit zips, a front 2way zip, etc, can be the best way to vent excess perspiration.
> Near and below freezing, they may not perform so well. Also, in a heavy downpour, they won't breath at all because the pours of the jacket are blocked by rain soaking the outside of the jacket. Here again, pit zips can come in handy.
> If you expect waterproof/breathables to cut the wind, vent some perspiration under dry cool conditions, and keep water out when the downpour comes, then they are for you. If you want breathability in highly humid or downpour conditions, forget it. Buy a urethane coated jacket with lots of venting zippers and don't move around a whole lot.
> ...





That last link was very informative. :twothumbs


----------



## EV_007 (Sep 7, 2007)

fnmag said:


> Schoeller 3X dry is great stuff. I'd recommend it for a "soft shell".
> However, depending on your needs, if it's a "hard shell" that you want, buy a quality garment with GoreTex XCR.
> A little OT. If you're new to this type of clothing, be wary of North Face goods. They built their name and reputation on quality USA mfg goods.
> That is no longer the case. BEWARE: if you do not buy from a reputable business, but use Ebay etc...there are a "ton" of North Face knockoffs. So many in fact that I wouldn't buy a NF jacket unless I could visually inspect it.
> YMMV



I have heard a huge knock-off market for The North Face products. I wish the label was less obvious and a logo patch on both front and back seems a bit overkill. But I still like the overall looks of some of their shells.


----------



## cy (Sep 7, 2007)

REI and Patagonia were among world's first users of goretex. 

Patagonia was allowed to market without displaying goretex, so you really couldn't tell what technology they were using. 

Patagonia has alway been on the bleeding edge of fabrics. they've always operated as the beta for exotic fabrics. so if you want to know what's going to happen in new high tech fabrics... go check out the Panagonia line. 

goretex has come a long ways since early days of REI jackets. in fact those early goretex jackets generally delaminated. since they came with a lifetime warranty. REI will sent out a brand new jacket to replace. 

goretex for awhile was replacing early delaminated jackets with new Marmot jackets. 

for the longest time goretex had a lock on the breathable market. now days... there are tons of breathable equivalents at a fraction of costs. 

for those that require loads of breathability, goretex activent is the way to go. but don't expect total waterproof. in fact if one is going to be exposed to extended downpour. go with a totally waterproof garment that vents with flaps. 

outer shell is but one layer in your system. base is the most important layer. NEVER use cotton. 

a hydrophobic or water hating fabric is mandatory in extreme conditions. it doesn't have to be synthetic, wool and silk works great!

in the thin layer, magic happens is a micro-climate. water hating fabrics passes water upwards, this allows your skin to stay dry. 

wet + cold = hypothermia and death. 

dry + cold = a chance to warm up your body and survival 

wet + warm = no big deal 

dry + warm = your goal

wicking fabrics has also come a long ways. again Patagonia led the way. they were the first to get away from polypropylene, which worked great but stunk. they called their fabric capalene. again working with fabric mfg on the bleeding edge. 

now days the best source of cheap wicking fabrics is ..... Walmart. 
Dri-star is the correct one to get. they also have an ultra-light version of dri-star. amazing high performance fabric... regardless of the super low price. 

ultimate test for a good wicking fabric is how fast it drys. my std test is to wash/wring out the shirt/garment by hand. then hang up to air dry. if garment is dry by morning. then fabric passes the test. if garment is dry within a few hours, fabric is of highest quality! note all wicking fabrics will insulate even wet. goal is to find a garment that feels like soft cotton but drys very quickly. (walmart dri-star meets this criteria)

this test is mandatory for fabrics taken on extended trips. to go super light, one must limit number of garments. one to wear, one to wash and dry. when you stop at night, you wash dirty garment, then change into clean one. then by morning washed garment is dry and ready to go. 

this tactic will allow you to go super light extended trips indefinitely with only two garments changes.


----------



## Windscale (Sep 7, 2007)

EV_007 said:


> Wow, thanks for all your replies. I've done the flashaholic thing and bought both, er, five I should say.
> 
> I got the Marnot Precip and Oracle for rainwear that I can layer. and The North face Hyvent and GoreTex flavors.
> 
> ...


 
When it comes to waterproofs and breathables it may not be the wisest thing to do the flashaholic thing, namely, buy them all. With lights you can take them all out at the same time. But you can only wear one set of protective clothing at a time. So you should have decided what to buy based on your needs and depending on where you want to go and what you want to do with it. Cannot offer you much help as you have not specified these. But one thing for certain, keep away from cotton underwears. These will soak up water and turn them to condensation which will kill you in turn. Hence, the killer fabric. Get some underwear with good wicking abilities to keep the water away. Things like dryflo, subzero etc.


----------



## js (Sep 7, 2007)

cy,

Nice post!

I have Patagonia Capeline and Marmot (can't remember what they call theirs) base layers, and I love them. I also have the Ibex wool stuff and I love that, too.

But, I'm very excited to hear about this Wallmart Dri-star stuff. Hmmm. I'll have to check that out. Reasonably priced, you say? All the better.

As for cotton, couldn't agree more. In any serious situation, cotton=DEATH. Hardcore outdoors people will even go so far as to say that cotton never insulates. Ever. I don't think that's true, as dry cotton certainly does insulate. But I do think that if keeping warm and dry outdoors is an issue, avoid cotton like the plague. Indoors? Cotton is fine. I love cotton. Nice stuff, especially in warm weather. But it just ain't a good winter weather outdoor activity baselayer. Bad idea. Bad idea.


----------



## EV_007 (Sep 7, 2007)

Yup, good advice all. I got silk for the base layer, fleece for insulating layer to go with the outer shells I've bought. 

Good wicking material is good. I agree cotton kills. Soaks up a lot of moisture, so I've read. I'll have to check out Wally World's offering for the wicking stuff. After all, any non-cotton material should be a good start. Lightweight rayon/polyester/lycra blend should do.

Down seems to be one of the warmest, very lightweight materials for warmth. I think I'm all set.

I bought various types of coats for variety. No one wears the same pants or shirts everyday, or at least I hope not.


----------



## SolarFlare (Sep 7, 2007)

EV_007 said:


> With Fall and Winter right around the corner I've been looking to get a new coat. I am looking at acquiring a beathable/waterproof shell that will keep me warm and dry without excessive se=weating.
> 
> Is the whole GoreTex and other material/treatments what they are all cracked up to be?
> 
> Any ideas, opinions? I like the look and feel of some of the Northface coats.


 
Well I can say with experience that gore-tex is not all it's cracked up to be, infact it's a total con, and it won't keep you warm, thats not its job. In lab conditions it's great, it will resist "x" columns of water and vent "y" amount of vapour, but get it dirty, wash it one too many times, rip it, run hot, go too near a fire or just happen to be in a humid atmosphere and you might as well be wearing bin bags.

Now I'm going to be controversial, if you want a nice, comfy, highly breathable jacket that's easily maintained, waterproof, will last you a lifetime and gets better the more you wear it. Plus it won't melt to your skin in a fire, you can stitch it yourself and it will still work, it's naturally windproof, so no need for extra layers, it's not manufactured with nasty chemicals and most importantly it will be the comfiest jacket you ever owned, and it will become more comfy the older it gets. Buy a cotton Ventile jacket, if you happen to want to go out when it's consistently pissin down buy a double layer cotton Ventile I can guarantee that it's 100% waterproof. (edit forgot to add that it won't delaminate, deteriorate, or the seems fail, it's a natural fabric and the weave and type of cotton makes it permanently waterproof)

Like others have mentioned you need to wash "your waterproof" without detergents, follow manufacturers recomendations. Well if you wash anything with, for example grangers waterproof, you'll get a DWR coating on it, it might be your pyjama's or your outdoor coat. If you look after your garments then they will all bead water and shed it. 

Basically don't believe cotton is death, infact ventile is the most popular material for polar expeditionist as a shell, granted it's not very wet at the poles, but it is cold and windy


----------



## chmsam (Sep 7, 2007)

Gore Tex is meant to be a breathable fabric that will keep you dryer than most other fabrics. Warmth you get from insulation and/or layering. My parka is probably 10 years old and works great, but if I want warmth, I add a layer or two underneath it.

Any coat will work less efficiently at keeping you dry if it is dirty. I don't know about what Gore Tex garments you have used but my parka is easy to clean and re-treat. Also, short of Nomex and the like, very few outer garments will do well if you get them too close to a flame. My parka is tough but any garment will get a hole in it if you work at it. While we don't deal with arctic temps around here, it will get down to as low as -15 F or so but it will also get wet. Even at much warmer temps being wet is bad mojo. I've been in cold, wet weather wearing good cotton outerwear. I'll take Gore Tex over that anytime.

Yes, it is more expensive and it does take a small amount of extra care, but I like it and it works for me. Of course, YMMV.


----------



## Dr Jekell (Sep 7, 2007)

lightsandknives said:


> I've heard climbers refer to cotton as the "death fabric" because it gets wet and stays wet and as temperatures drop, it makes you cold.  Polypropalene wicks moisture away from your body to help keep you dry.
> 
> Here's a good article on dressing for the outdoors
> 
> I have a couple of Gore-tex jackets and they do a nice job of keeping you dry and providing pretty good ventilation.



That may be true for people going into the great outdoors but for the people that are just going for a walk down to the local store or to work then it is not a huge disadvantage.

I regularly have a cotton tshirt under my uniform shirt to help with temp fluctuations as I go in and out of a warm store, Walk in chiller and walk in freezer @ -25C to -28C and when getting spashed with water.


----------



## depusm12 (Sep 7, 2007)

This is kinda off topic, but I wear the drystar t-shirts/turtlenecks in navy blue under my bulletproof vest at work. Its sold in the brand name Starter, it keeps me cooler that the cotton t shirts which would wind up soaking wet, the turtlenecks actually keep me very warm in the wintertime. Its also alot cheaper that the UnderArmour brand.


----------



## cy (Sep 7, 2007)

cotton as a base layer for extreme conditions will get you in trouble quickly. NO one that wants to come home safely from an extended extreme cold trip will want to use cotton as a base layer. 

all ready stated goretex is not very good in a downpour. when pores gets saturated, it's going to leak. my preference is a completely waterproof material using flaps to ventilate. 

however goretex for high performance activities like cycling. where extremes in temperatures are routine. it's hard to beat. 

treated cotton's performance as an outer layer especially in downpours is well known. so certainly not knocking ventile's performance. here's a link http://www.snowsled.com/polar/expedition_clothing_outerlayer.htm



SolarFlare said:


> Basically don't believe cotton is death, infact ventile is the most popular material for polar expeditionist as a shell, granted it's not very wet at the poles, but it is cold and windy


----------



## analogguy (Sep 8, 2007)

cy said:


> all ready stated goretex is not very good in a downpour. when pores gets saturated, it's going to leak.



The gore-tex is not leaking. What is happening is called wet out and occurs because the outer fabric is saturated or contaminated and moisture cannot escape. You end up drenched from the inside. Reapplying a DWR helps, but no waterproof/breathable laminate fabric, be it E-vent, Gore-tex XCR, or Gore-tex Pro Shell will keep you from sweating. Keep in mind that only so much moisture can pass through the laminate at any point in time so if you are working hard you can quickly overwhelm this point. All that being said, a good waterproof/breathable shell can keep you a lot more comfortable than a rubber suit.


----------



## CLHC (Sep 8, 2007)

TAD Gear sells the Stealth Hoodie found here:

http://www.tadgear.com/x-treme gear/apparel main/stealth_hoodie.htm

Check it out, read the reviews and Enjoy!


----------



## chmsam (Sep 8, 2007)

It's a good idea to remember that wind resistant is not always also water repellent, but both are good things to have.

Also, to put things in perspective, a normal walk around here (and many other locales) at certain times of the year can rapidly go from sunny to wet to snow and cold -- you know what I mean, "If you don't like the weather, wait five minutes and we'll get you something different." More times than I can remember I have seen a weather change from sunny and warm(-ish) to just plain nasty in only a few minutes. That means a 10 degree F or more temperature drop in just a few minutes with a change from a light breeze to a 25 mph or more wind, perfect weather for hypothermia which can happen in temps just a little below 50 degrees F. The weatherman doesn't always (or even often) get it right. Nice to have well maintained, quality weather gear with you, especially since the difference between an around town walk and country/mountain hike can literally mean life or death. And if the weather goes from bad to good, if you've dressed well, you don't end up drenched in sweat and carrying your garments instead of wearing them.

Like many things in life, if you are going to be outdoors a lot, it pays to get the best you can afford. That and planning for Murphy's Law to show up makes life much more tolerable. I didn't much care for being wet, cold, and having blue fingers and toes when I was a little guy. If that happens now at my age, it really ticks me off 'cause I don't like being caught out on the stupid side of things, but YMMV.


----------



## barkingmad (Sep 8, 2007)

analogguy said:


> The gore-tex is not leaking. What is happening is called wet out and occurs because the outer fabric is saturated or contaminated and moisture cannot escape. You end up drenched from the inside. Reapplying a DWR helps, but no waterproof/breathable laminate fabric, be it E-vent, Gore-tex XCR, or Gore-tex Pro Shell will keep you from sweating. Keep in mind that only so much moisture can pass through the laminate at any point in time so if you are working hard you can quickly overwhelm this point. All that being said, a good waterproof/breathable shell can keep you a lot more comfortable than a rubber suit.


 
+1 AFAIK Goretex / eVent etc. do not leak - the water you get 'inside' is either some water through zips that may not be waterproof but mostly it is condensation of your own sweat.


----------



## Windscale (Sep 8, 2007)

I would agree with SolarFlare and cy regarding Ventile. I did refer to cotton as the killer fabric. I must qualify this to apply to inside and base layers only. Outer layer is different. Ventile, made of very closely woven cotton, maily Egyptian cotton, will swell on cantact with water thereby blocking further water penetration. A double layer Ventile jacket is, therefore, very waterproof. Much safer than Goretex as there are no taped seams to worry about. But it does get a bit heavy when wet. Although once inside it will dry fairly quickly.

A few years I went to Harbin, China in the cold winter (-35'C). My top cover was Ventile, fleece and dryflo and that was sufficient protection against the elements. Many of my friend's gear was not up to it and they really suffered. My Ventile jacket (Barbour's Edurance) has been with me to many places in quite extreme weathers. 

Another suggestion for a jacket would be the old British Wax jackets. Some over 15 years ago I went with many friends to Japan and we faced a snowstorm in the countryside resort. Only my wife and I remained dry. Wax jackets need reproofing from time to time. But these will also last a lifetime. The worst sufferers were those wearing DOWN. Down may be the warmest, but it loses all protection properties when wet.

It is not everyday that one buys protective clothing. Do work out what the best and go for it. Once you are there and your clothes are not good enough, it would be too late!


----------



## cy (Sep 8, 2007)

can't comment about anyone else... but that's been my personal experience with goretex in an extended downpours. fabric becomes completed loaded with water. 

note this experience is based upon early gen goretex and may not apply to latest versions. it's been awhile since I've been stuck outside in an downpour with my late gen marmot gortex parka's. which has performed well in downpours. but again I have not subjected new stuff to extended soaks. 

I have been stuck in extended rains with goretex ativent while cycling. it's not unusual for us to take 75 mile rides. so getting soaked for several hours is not unusual. can tell you at some point goretex ativent gets water logged. 



analogguy said:


> The gore-tex is not leaking. What is happening is called wet out and occurs because the outer fabric is saturated or contaminated and moisture cannot escape. You end up drenched from the inside. Reapplying a DWR helps, but no waterproof/breathable laminate fabric, be it E-vent, Gore-tex XCR, or Gore-tex Pro Shell will keep you from sweating. Keep in mind that only so much moisture can pass through the laminate at any point in time so if you are working hard you can quickly overwhelm this point. All that being said, a good waterproof/breathable shell can keep you a lot more comfortable than a rubber suit.


----------



## EV_007 (Sep 8, 2007)

Marmot - Precip
Marmot - Oracle
The North Face Varius Guide
The North Face - Mountain Light
The North Face - Plasma Thermal

So here's my quick product evaluation(s) thus far. I got both the Marmot Precip and Oracle for lightweight, breathable/waterproof rain wear. I read very positive reviews on the Precip which prompted me to check it out for myself. It is very waterproof and a lot more breathable than the rubber "sailing" jacket I got from the GAP. My lower back did not get all sweaty like the GAP one did. I bought the Oracle due to its looks and it fits a bit better. More stylish cut and slightly heavier material with a non-clammy interior.

The North Face coats with the their proprietary Hyvent and the Gore-Tex XCR brand kept me warm on an overnight camping trip. The Plasma Thermal has the Primoloft insulation, which kept me warmer, but not as warm as I thought it would be. 

It rained and got down to the upper 40's at night, so it wasn't an "arctic" test, but it did give me a pretty good idea of the overall performance of the coats.

Layering with a fleece was almost too warm for this time of year.

I see what you guys mean by sweat not escaping fast enough through the material when in a downpour with temps in the 80's. It did keep me more comfy than the rubber suit, but not bone dry due to he rain outside and high humidity inside the coat from a five mile run in my lightest shell. Still, kept me from shivering.

Overall, I'm pleased with the material/laminates. You do get what you pay for.


----------



## kaseri (Sep 9, 2007)

EV_007 said:


> I am looking at acquiring a beathable/waterproof shell that will keep me warm and dry



A "hard shell" does NOT provide any form of warmth. It only provides protection from the elements. Gore-Tex is not the most breatheable material available today. I would go with eVent fabric which is MUCH more breathable than Gore-Tex. There are a few mfgs out there that use this fabric. One of which is Wildthings out of NH.


----------



## shakeylegs (Sep 9, 2007)

kaseri said:


> A "hard shell" does NOT provide any form of warmth. It only provides protection from the elements. Gore-Tex is not the most breatheable material available today. I would go with eVent fabric which is MUCH more breathable than Gore-Tex. There are a few mfgs out there that use this fabric. One of which is Wildthings out of NH.



True, a hard shell typically doesn't provide any insulative thickness, however, as EV_007 mentioned, the hyvent and xcr shells kept him warm. Hard shells, even alone, provide some protection from heat loss due to radiation, evaporation, and convection. In 30 degree F weather I have been quite comfortable wearing just a thin baselayer covered only with a goretex shell. Around 40 degrees, the baselayer makes me too hot. In very cold and nasty weather, a mid layer of lofting insulation provides life saving warmth. 

With regard to "proprietary" WP/B coatings, I recall reading that almost all the PU coated WP/B fabrics utilized one flavor or another of Toray's Entrant. Haven't followed it for a while now but Toray Entrant G2 XT was supposed to be very very promising as it was very low cost and performance competitive with goretex and eVent. I don't know if it ever went into production. Aside from eVent, goretex and the Toray coated products like hyvent, epic is the other truly "proprietary" fabric I've read about but not used. All threads before being woven into a fabric, are coated in silicon, then tightly woven, creating microscopic WP/B openings in the weave. Does anyone have experience with epic shells?


----------



## cy (Sep 9, 2007)

totally agree about comments of hard shell providing some warmth. for me it's all about level of activity. when one is working hard, not much insulation is needed even under extreme cold conditions. 

unless you are in Alaskan conditions (where's Sig?) because of wind chill factor, cycling demands one of the widest temperature control of any sport. 

when cycling under icy conditions, not much insulation is needed due to exertion levels. shell being wind tight can add many degrees of comfort. most times my preference is to ride with goretex fleece or 2-3 layers of wicking fabrics. then carry goretex activent shell if weather gets worst. 

entrant and/or other types of water shedding coatings has been used by Patagonia for 20+ years. almost right from the beginning of advanced high performance fabrics. 

again... Patagonia never discloses what they use. traditionally has always been on bleeding edge of high performance fabrics. they work with fabric mfg and has new products out before anyone else. 



shakeylegs said:


> With regard to "proprietary" WP/B coatings, I recall reading that almost all the PU coated WP/B fabrics utilized one flavor or another of Toray's Entrant. Haven't followed it for a while now but Toray Entrant G2 XT was supposed to be very very promising as it was very low cost and performance competitive with goretex and eVent. I don't know if it ever went into production.


----------



## Echo63 (Sep 9, 2007)

I love my Driza-Bone Jacket - in fact i have 2 of them a short one and a full length one
they are waterproofed cotton and are fairly heavy, but are great at keeping the rain off, i have worn mine while i was out shooting drifting at the local raceway and it rained hard nearly all day, i stayed nice and dry apart from the bit of my legs that werent covered by the coat.

be warned though, Drizabone coats are heavy, and they arent insulated
this is a good thing if your working hard, as the jacket isnt too hot too wear, just put a jumper on underneath if you need the warmth
Drizabone also make a Insulated Liner which Buttons in to the jacket

www.drizabone.com is the site for them
oh, and their stuff is half the price of Goretex jackets that are available here in australia

note - i dont work for drizabone, im just a happy owner of 2 of their coats 
and my parents german sheperd has a drizabone coat too - it keeps the rain off, but doesnt help when she jumps in puddles


----------



## js (Sep 10, 2007)

SolarFlare said:


> Well I can say with experience that gore-tex is not all it's cracked up to be, infact it's a total con, and it won't keep you warm, thats not its job. In lab conditions it's great, it will resist "x" columns of water and vent "y" amount of vapour, but get it dirty, wash it one too many times, rip it, run hot, go too near a fire or just happen to be in a humid atmosphere and you might as well be wearing bin bags.
> 
> Now I'm going to be controversial, if you want a nice, comfy, highly breathable jacket that's easily maintained, waterproof, will last you a lifetime and gets better the more you wear it. Plus it won't melt to your skin in a fire, you can stitch it yourself and it will still work, it's naturally windproof, so no need for extra layers, it's not manufactured with nasty chemicals and most importantly it will be the comfiest jacket you ever owned, and it will become more comfy the older it gets. Buy a cotton Ventile jacket, if you happen to want to go out when it's consistently pissin down buy a double layer cotton Ventile I can guarantee that it's 100% waterproof. (edit forgot to add that it won't delaminate, deteriorate, or the seems fail, it's a natural fabric and the weave and type of cotton makes it permanently waterproof)
> 
> ...




SolarFlare,

Ventile cotton! How neat! My brother told me about that stuff. I'm thrilled to find someone who actually has experience with it.

What garments do you own? links?

And where did you read about the polar expeditionists wearing ventile shells? I'd love to hear more!

In any case, when I was talking about cotton being bad, I was *NOT* refering to ventile, but rather a cotton T-shirt or underwear. Rather a different beast, don't you think?

Ventile is something else entirely! So, tell us more. Tell us a lot more.


----------



## Windscale (Sep 10, 2007)

js said:


> SolarFlare,
> 
> Ventile cotton! How neat! My brother told me about that stuff. I'm thrilled to find someone who actually has experience with it.
> 
> ...


 
There is plenty to read about in this site:

http://www.ventile.co.uk/

The one I have is the Barbour Endurance (the people famous for making British wax jackets). I bought it in the Lake District in England. It was the last one left, it fitted and it was 50% off. I was lucky then. I think Barbour has since then discontinued this line, sadly.

I also have a ventile photographer's waistcoat made by Billingham (the camera bag people). Also discontinued I think.

The Drizabone is also a great coat. It would have been better if they designed a hood for it.


----------



## SolarFlare (Sep 10, 2007)

js said:


> SolarFlare,
> 
> Ventile cotton! How neat! My brother told me about that stuff. I'm thrilled to find someone who actually has experience with it.
> 
> ...


 
Hi JS, the link Windscale posted gives a bit of history and uses of ventile. Unfortunately I can only think of Orvis that sells it in the US. I have garments from West_Winds & Hilltrek. Both are smocks but they sell a variety of jackets and made to measure gear too. I think Snowsled in particular are proud of their ventile polar equipment, as mentioned by cy earlier. Here's a few extracts from their site:-

_"The Ventile® was robust, relatively lightweight and of high quality. The strong Antarctic light caused slight bleaching but no apparent weakening of the material. Its great toughness was extremely well suited to our sort of expedition (particularly when working with the dogs! ) and is to be highly recommended." An extract from the test report from the 90° South Polar Expedition of the Antarctic Foundation, Oslo._

_Following its recognition as an eminently suitable cold weather fabric, the British Antarctic Survey Team have outer garments and tents made from Ventile._

_Sir Ranulph Fiennes and Dr Mike Stroud wore Ventile® garments from Snowsled during their unsupported crossing of the Antarctic in 1993._

_"The Ventile fabric which you so kindly supplied to the expedition gave absolutely invaluable service." Chris Bonnington after his historic Annapurna South Face Expedition._

Edit:- Just thought of a few more places, country innovations make and sell ventile garments, and if you have any army surplus stores, the British SAS windproof smock is made from ventile too, be careful not to pick up a civilian version as they are not ventile, but you occassionally see the real deal listed on ebay or like I said in surplus shops.


----------



## Windscale (Sep 10, 2007)

SolarFlare,

The Ventile website used to contain a link listing many manufacturers. But sadly most of these have discontinued ventile and the link has been deleted. I think you have probably listed all the places where ventile is still available. 

This is very sad. I think ventile's failure was due largely to lack of advertising, weight and price. 

I have been to quite a few places with my ventile jacket and I hope this jacket will remain functional for many years to come. Although the jacket is comparatively heavier than a, say, Goretex one, but it is equal to, or better than, a Goretex plus an inner layer when it comes to keeping warm. I bought mine in 1995 and the full price was GBP 350 in the Barbour shop in Harrod's. I don't think I would have bought it at that price. The 50% discount I got was a real bargain. Probably I won't have to think of another heavy duty waterproof and breathable jacket the rest of my life.

I am glad that the subject of ventile has been raised here. Very few people know about it these days. Almost everytime people ask me about the fabric of my jacket and I told them "Ventile" and I will most frequently get another question, namely, "is that a kind of Goretex?" This is not right. Do forgive me for being nostalgic. Another BRITISH thing is disappearing.


----------



## SolarFlare (Sep 10, 2007)

Here's a dude wearing his nice ventile smock in the antarctic .

Here's a page with a bit more info.

Slioch is another supplier of garments I just recalled and Bison bushcraft do a smock based on the military battle dress smock.

Windscale, don't Barbour offer a lifetime repair service? It would be interesting to find out what they would do with your Endurance. I always fancied one of those back in the 90's, but as you have stated they were a bit on the pricey side.


----------



## Windscale (Sep 11, 2007)

SolarFlare said:


> Windscale, don't Barbour offer a lifetime repair service? It would be interesting to find out what they would do with your Endurance. I always fancied one of those back in the 90's, but as you have stated they were a bit on the pricey side.


 
Barbour do offer a lifetime repair service. But so far there is nothing to repair. The whole jacket was made to very high standards with double stitching and rolled-up seams and all that. It is still as strong as new after all these years. Quality came with a price. In my case at 50% of the price!


----------



## monkeyboy (Sep 15, 2007)

I have 2 Goretex jackets and neither of them live up to their marketing hype. If you run up a hill, you will get soaked in sweat. If you stay out in the rain for several hours, the water will penetrate eventually. I actually find that my 10 year old Goretex jacket performs better in this respect than my newer goretex XCR.

I've heard that Paramo jackets are very good. Much more breathable than Gore-tex and don't have that plasticky feel to them. I haven't tried one yet though.


----------



## jeep44 (Sep 15, 2007)

Check out Filson.com for their line of US-made waxed cotton "Tin Cloth" jackets . I have three of them-an unlined shelter cloth jacket ,a medium-weight lined "klondike" jacket, and the heavy Field jacket with the zip-in wool liner. 
Barbour makes good stuff,too,but like Filson, none of it is cheap. I just got the Barbour "International"-maybe the most enduringly stylish motorcycle jacket ever made.


----------



## Windscale (Sep 16, 2007)

monkeyboy said:


> I have 2 Goretex jackets and neither of them live up to their marketing hype. If you run up a hill, you will get soaked in sweat. If you stay out in the rain for several hours, the water will penetrate eventually. I actually find that my 10 year old Goretex jacket performs better in this respect than my newer goretex XCR.
> 
> I've heard that Paramo jackets are very good. Much more breathable than Gore-tex and don't have that plasticky feel to them. I haven't tried one yet though.


 
Being in Scotland you will need the best protection available. I have also been through one or two Goretex and that's why I have gone back to Ventile and wax long ago despite the fact that they are heavier. The lighter the Goretex the more likely you are to get in trouble. The older 3-layer Goretex was the best but these are not light and quite hard and uncomfortable and, what is worst, they fail. I have also been interested in Paramo. But as I have already got a few jackets it may be sometime before I tried anything else. If you eventually got round to trying them, please post your experience here.


----------



## js (Sep 16, 2007)

Filson. Yeah. At one time I was big into Filson. For a decade (or longer, actually), I lived--and I mean *LIVED* in my Filson double Mac Cruiser wool jacket. I also bought one of their Tin Cloth hats and another waxed cotton type (not Tin Cloth, but lighter--like Barbour) jackets.

Tin Cloth is pretty amazing stuff, but it IS heavy. Very heavy. But also very rugged. VERY rugged. I went for the lighter weight waxed cotton jacket for that reason--lighter, more flexible, etc. But, overall I was disappointed with it in terms of breathability. I imagine Barbour jackets are better.

As for the Double Mac, the main problem with that was the cut of the jacket. I swear Filson cuts them for people with serious pot bellies! In order for me to get a jacket that fit me at the shoulder and neck, I had to suffer through a lot of extra fabric at the stomach and waist, and that really hurt the wind resistance (such as it is for wool) and heat retention of the jacket.

Don't get me wrong! I love my Filson jacket. But honestly, my Patagonia R3 fleece is warmer than my Filson double mac, at about 1/10th the weight, and it's much more flexibe and breathable.

Anyway . . . 

Windscale,

Thanks! And I think I'll drop in on your UK thread maybe. I'm a big fan of certain UK stuff, like, oh, say Kate Beckinsale and Rachel Stevens, for example.


----------



## monkeyboy (Nov 6, 2007)

I finally got round to buying a Paramo jacket so thought I'd bring up this old thread again. I got the Alta II hill walking jacket and my first impressions are excellent. It's very lightweight, warm and breathable. I've been on a few outings with it but haven't yet had a chance to test out the waterproofness. It always rains in Scotland but never when you want it to. The waterproofing of the jacket does not depend on a membrane like Goretex which makes the fabric much more breathable. You do have to use Nikwax waterproofing wash from time to time though to maintain waterproofness. It does work, I've read reviews about people walking all day in the pouring rain and not getting wet on the inside. There's also a mountain rescue team that uses Paramo. Another benefit of not using a membrane is that the jacket can be sewn up if ripped and still maintain waterproofness. Also, the fabric feels softer and less plastic like.

Based on my limited experience and reviews I have read, I can definitely recommend this over Gore-tex. It's too warm for hot climates though. Probably better off with something like Gore-tex paclite for that.

Windscale, I think you would like Paramo. Think of it as the modern equilvalent of a waxed cotton jacket.


----------

