# SHOT Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'



## jellydonut (Jan 16, 2012)

SureFire 2012 new products video

SureFire Booth (SS2012) product tour video

SureFire's Stuart Yager (SS2012 Jan 18th) video clip

Here is the list from the video:

UM2 Ultra (6-setting selector ring, TIR, 500 lumens)
ZM2 CombatLight (CombatGrip, TIR, 500 lumens)
DM2 Defender (Crenelated "Strike Bezel", TIR, 500 lumens)
P2X-B-BK Fury (Dual-Output 15/500 lumens, reflector) [RELEASED]

LX2 Ultra (assume two-stage push button pressure switch TailCap, two-way PocketClip, TIR, ??/500 lumens)
EB1 (Dual-Output ??/200 lumens, TIR, two-way PocketClip)


UDR Dominator (11-setting selector ring, rechargeable, reflector, 2000 lumens)
UBR Invictus (11-setting selector ring, 4-Function TailCap, rechargeable, TIR, 800 lumens)
UNR Commander (6-setting selector ring, 4-Function TailCap, rechargeable, TIR, 800 lumens)
UN3 Commander (6-setting selector ring, two-stage push button pressure switch, CombatGrip, three-SF123, TIR, 800 lumens)
R1 Lawman (Head & TailCap switching, rechargeable [two-SF123A w/ tray], reflector, 700 lumens)
R2 Lawman (Head & TailCap switching, rechargeable only, reflector, 700 lumens?)



Size15's said:


> SureFire's proposed new lithium ion rechargeable battery body used by the UBR, UNR and R1 looks set to feature a bespoke *[proprietary]* removable lithium ion battery pack. It is so-shaped with a contacts tab/tongue that it will only fit and function in the battery body it is designed for. SureFire will also be offering a "lithium battery magazine" (cradle) for a pair of SF123As that can be used instead of the Li-Ion battery pack.
> The UDR will have a lithium battery magazine for twelve SF123As in addition to it's proprietary removable lithium ion battery pack.
> 
> There is a socket for a plug-in (12V DC) power cable in the side of the body towards it's forward end near the fuel-gauge.



V1 Vampire (white/IR selectable output, TIR, two-stage TailCap, two-way PocketClip)
IR1 Illuminator (IR output, TIR, two-stage TailCap, two-way PocketClip)

2211 WristLight (200 lumens / 1hr, rechargeable via USB, accelerometer for hands-free) pic pic w/ timepiece pic of 3
S.A.L. Angle-Head Light (500 lumens white light, white and red secondary LEDs, programmable)

X400-GN (250 lumen, TIR, Green Laser Sight) pic
X400-IR (250? lumen white? light TIR, IR Laser Sight)
X300 Ultra (500 lumen white light, TIR) 

M300V (Mini ScoutLight with Vampire white/IR selectable output TIR bezel [like V1])

M500LT, M900LT, M900L pic & M962LT (700 lumen TurboHead, TIR)

MVG (2000 lumen vertical foregrip WeaponLight) pic

ISIS pic

We can update this list with the 2012 catalog specs in due course....


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## Lou Minescence (Jan 16, 2012)

Looks like Surefire is caught up in the latest and greatest lumens battle.
I love it.


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## Viper715 (Jan 16, 2012)

Nice!!! Looks like my wallet is getting thinner this year. I'm liking the L1R, that wrist light thing and the lawman. And the update to the E1B the EB1 is a welcome one.


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## freeride21a (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Welp.. I was wondering what I would eventually replace my LX 2 with.. now I know.. LX2 Ultra!

I have a Fury on the way already, been back-ordered since Dec 27th at BJ. I hate waiting lol.


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## jamesmtl514 (Jan 16, 2012)

V1 looks pretty cool.I don't like the new looks though.


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## tobrien (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

nothing on the site yet it appears, but thanks for the 'sneak peek'!

edit: the UNR rechargeable series makes me think "unrechargeable" haha

edit2: a wrist light... nice! 200 lumens ain't bad assuming that thing isn't ungainly huge


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## trbofrek (Jan 16, 2012)

*New surefire products of 2012 video?*

Hi not sure if this has been posted up yet but heres a new video from surefire showing their new line up of products!


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## freeride21a (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Yeah, my guess is the video release coincides with SHOT show, which starts tomorrow in Vegas. Where they show all the new cool awesome flashlights they are not going to ever make.



tobrien said:


> nothing on the site yet it appears, but thanks for the 'sneak peek'!
> 
> edit: the UNR rechargeable series makes me think "unrechargeable" haha
> 
> edit2: a wrist light... nice! 200 lumens ain't bad assuming that thing isn't ungainly huge


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## flashlight chronic (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

I'll need 2 of those wrist lights. :naughty:


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## kyhunter1 (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

500 Surefire lumens out of a TIR should generate alot of interest in these lights. I would spectulate a XML. I hope that SF brings the most of these into production. The EB1 definitely has my interest.


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## Flashlight Dave (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



freeride21a said:


> Yeah, my guess is the video release coincides with SHOT show, which starts tomorrow in Vegas. Where they show all the new cool awesome flashlights they are not going to ever make.



Ha Ha I like that!! Not going to ever make!!


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



> Where they show all the new cool awesome flashlights they are not going to ever make.



Yep, it's that time of year again.

If it were another manufacturer, we would accuse them of blatantly displaying more vaporware. Of course, since it is SF, usual excuses will apply, they can't keep up with demand, it's a small mom and pop company, PK is a genius and perfection can't be hurried, prices are high to fund even more new products, CPF is not the primary market demographic, what do we know?

I'm not trying to be negative but we have been down this false path with exciting new SF product announcements in years past.

Still, the Fury is already out, is SF changing to keep up with the times? Hope so.:thumbsup:


Looks like a lot of the lights have 500 lumen emitters. I could sure go for the U2 update. Dare I get my hopes up?


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## pulstar (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

 LX2 Ultra... Aaaaraaaarrghh (drooling like Homer...)


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## Schuey2002 (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: New surefire products of 2012 video?*

They are coming out with a 500 Lumen version of the LX2!

Oh, Baby!!!! Me want!!


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## angelofwar (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: New surefire products of 2012 video?*

Mmmmm...that new U2 looks SCHWEEETTTT!!!!


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## johnny0000 (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Oh man....all those lights makes my wallet feel lighter.

So along with most of these lights being vaporware, I'm sure Surefire jacked up their prices 15%. :duh2:


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## Size15's (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Plenty of new products proposed - I hope SureFire manage to release some. Personally, I hope to be able to upgrade my LX2.


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## calipsoii (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Great minds think alike?


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## Flashlight Dave (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Surefire must be using XM-L leds. I wonder if there will be issues with heat and a need to drop the output after a few minutes? Any thoughts ??


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## kelmo (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

I want the LX2 and the dagger!

I hope they set the LX2 at 100 and 500 lumens. Or even better, let the buy set the low setting when ordering.

If the current LX2 is $210 and the their edged weapons line starting at $180 I shudder to think what the new LX2 and dagger will cost...


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## kelmo (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



Flashlight Dave said:


> Surefire must be using XM-L leds. I wonder if there will be issues with heat and a need to drop the output after a few minutes? Any thoughts ??



This maybe true but how many minutes do you need at 500-900 lumens?


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## Glock 22 (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!! Looks like my Surefire collection will start to grow even more in 2012 it's got me


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## purelite (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Is it just me or are Surefires starting to look like cheap Chinese imports? I really dont like the whole no grip scalloped look. It just looks cheap and tacky

Guess I am an old school SF fan


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## Flashlight Dave (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



kelmo said:


> This maybe true but how many minutes do you need at 500-900 lumens?



Thats a good point. A few minutes at 500 then dropping to 300 or 350 would not be bad. I just wonder how bright the low would be?


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



purelite said:


> Is it just me or are Surefires starting to look like cheap Chinese imports? I really dont like the whole no grip scalloped look. It just looks cheap and tacky
> 
> Guess I am an old school SF fan



Another old school Surefire guy over here as well. Was a fan of the knurling and the old logo. Although I must say they have some new stuff that I could save up for.


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## WDR65 (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: New surefire products of 2012 video?*

I think its time to upgrade my original E1B and U2 and LX2 and....... Uh-oh!


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## Glock 22 (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

I've got the new fury and it don't feel a bit cheap, the only thing it's more light weight than some of the originals like the 6P original, but I've got a 6P and a 9P original on the way. But that's a really good point, surely surefire would'nt let us down by chinese imports.


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## red_hackle (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: New surefire products of 2012 video?*

Very much liking the look of the ZM2 Combalight... :huh:


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## Flashlight Dave (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

I guess I would just be happy if they released the new LX2 and EB1.


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## Glock 22 (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

I definitely want the EB1 for sure. Do you think that the reason why they are making the new series is to keep people from modifying them like you could do easily on the original series?


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## RobertM (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: New surefire products of 2012 video?*

Pretty cool! I might have to upgrade my LX2.


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## Flashlight Dave (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



GLOCK 22 said:


> I definitely want the EB1 for sure. Do you think that the reason why they are making the new series is to keep people from modifying them like you could do easily on the original series?



That seems to be the case with the KX4 head so I bet it would be possible for the rest as well. With 500 lumens who would want too?


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## Z-Tab (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

I was hoping to see an updated Titan in there. The wrist light looks interesting, but I'm not gonna get my hopes up that it will actually be released.


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## DUQ (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: New surefire products of 2012 video?*

*UDR Dominator* MRSP $1,370


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## victory (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Hopefully they keep the old one or offer an LX2 with a lower output and longer runtime. 500 lumens is *way* too bright for a tactical flashlight.


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## Size15's (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

As seems to keep things neat, we'll be merging threads together for all the SureFire at SS2012 stuff, and having individual ones on specific models if/when SureFire releases them.


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## jellydonut (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

I like the wristlamp type thing. Maybe I'll buy one for work when I get back in the business.

The LX2 update would tempt, but I have a 6P with the Kroma two-stage and a Nailbender XM-L unit, so I don't need it.


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## Glock 22 (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



Flashlight Dave said:


> That seems to be the case with the KX4 head so I bet it would be possible for the rest as well. With 500 lumens who would want too?


It's a very good possibility that's the case. Like you said 500 lumens who would want too. The fury is pretty awsome with the 500 lumens. I am well pleased with it.


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## Echo63 (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Nice new lights.
I quite like the LX2 Ultra, UDR (which was in last years catalog)
And the SAL angle head light

The 2211 wrist light looks interesting, but I don't know how useful I would find it.

Hopefully Surefire actually build some of these (like the minimus vision I wanted from last years shot show)


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## Dingle1911 (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

I like the looks of the new products. I hope to see more two stage tail caps, I think that is a better UI than the second click within a second. I probably will not be able to afford them, but I can dream. I look forward to buying the used older SF's CPFer's are selling to fund new SF purchases.


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## grayhighh (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Like the new look of EB1. Will definitely get one if announce.


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## 270winchester (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

I've been around this kind of rumor a few times, and I am still waiting for my LX1, LOL Surefire needs to release less videos and market interest probes, and just go make some damn lights. Wake me up when the new LX2 and E1B hits the stores.


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## greatscoot (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Always had my eye on the U2. The new UM2 looks sweet


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## Flashlight Dave (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



GLOCK 22 said:


> It's a very good possibility that's the case. Like you said 500 lumens who would want too. The fury is pretty awsome with the 500 lumens. I am well pleased with it.



What LED does the Fury use??


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## Glock 22 (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



Flashlight Dave said:


> What LED does the Fury use??


Mine looks like the XM-L.


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## Flashlight Dave (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



GLOCK 22 said:


> Mine looks like the XM-L.


Thanks, that was my guess.


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## jh333233 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Glad i didnt buy the current LX2
See if we can touch them at the end of the year 
LX1 is dead even though it was featured in the gunshow video before


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## jh333233 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

SS = Spring sale or summer sale?
Its keeping my heart itchy on the LX2!


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## yifu (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



jh333233 said:


> SS = Spring sale or summer sale?
> Its keeping my heart itchy on the LX2!


 SS= SHOT Show. It's a show on the 17th of jan every year where all kinds of tactical equipment manufacturers gathers to show off their new stuff.


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## bedazzLED (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Looks like I'll be upgrading my LX2 and E1B. Still got a little time to save for them and gives me time to save for an M3LT. Let's see, Jan-2014 release date sound about right?


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## NoFair (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Lots of nice stuff, but wouldn't the IR1 Illuminator (IR output, TIR, two-stage TailCap, two-way PocketClip) be a LX1 if they put a Cree XM-L in there instead of the IR led...


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## jh333233 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

LX1 appeared in the shotshow before, and it was introduced by the staff too
It then disappeared but not being selled


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## pulstar (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

I wonder how would new TIR lens be able to focus the emitted light from big, fat XM-L I really liked the beam on my LX2 and i regret that i sold it...


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## jh333233 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

I expect the new LX2 having the same beam profile as current one, tight and fog cutting, pocket thrower


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## yifu (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



jh333233 said:


> I expect the new LX2 having the same beam profile as current one, tight and fog cutting, pocket thrower


9K lux at 1m isn't a thrower at all. If anything, the new LX2 would have a lower lux as the die size of the XP-G is double the size of the XP-Es of the older generation. I am 90% sure that the new 500 lumen series uses the XP-G LED, possibly the highest S3 bin, which is capable of that output with the TIR optic, which is much more efficient than normal reflectors and on par with the highest quality electroformed reflectors with UCL lenses.


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## WarriorOfLight (Jan 17, 2012)

*Surefire - New flashlights 2012 video*

I did not find this vide ohere therefore I host it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1F9ftwTeEE&feature=g-all-u&context=G2246fadFAAAAAAAAAAA

New items I like: 
Updated LX2 with 500 lumens
Updates Backup 200 lumens
New 500 lumens lights with TIR


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## jh333233 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



yifu said:


> 9K lux at 1m isn't a thrower at all. If anything, the new LX2 would have a lower lux as the die size of the XP-G is double the size of the XP-Es of the older generation. I am 90% sure that the new 500 lumen series uses the XP-G LED, possibly the highest S3 bin, which is capable of that output with the TIR optic, which is much more efficient than normal reflectors and on par with the highest quality electroformed reflectors with UCL lenses.


I bet its XM-L, few point
Surefire tends to use XM-L in current LED line
They dont bluff lumen, XP-G with 500lm is on the edge of cliff, may even require overdriving, with R5 its only [email protected], and the maximum one stated by CREE is 493lm, with 7% of tolerable error, new bin isnt officially available yet IF the data sheet still holds, even S2 isnt widely available, let alone S3
I hope they would re-design the optics utilizing XM-L
And currently-latest E-series LED uses XR-E, E1B, LX2 etc
Btw, if new LX2 have a RRT-0 XM-L beam profile, i would definitely stick with the old one ; )


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## SKYTRAIL (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

There is only one thing missing from the following that would make them perfect ..... UM2 Ultra - P2X-B-BK Fury - LX2 Ultra - E1B ... PK's signature adorning each one. I'll be ordering one of each please, with or without the signature. :thumbsup:
"What a shame they don't put "First production Run" on the first 1,000" ... Hmm.


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## DM51 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Some nice looking lights there - the new designs are very eye-catching. 

It's getting hard to find a SF light with <500 lumens these days, LOL.


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## Glock 22 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

I like the upgrade on the LX2. But I'm a big fan of the E2DL and I wish Surefire would come up with one same body style and size of the current E2DL but with the same output of the upgraded LX2. Now that would be pretty sweet.


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## RedForest UK (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire - New flashlights 2012 video*

Wow, not only lots of massive upgrades to existing products, but some truly innovative ones too. That 2211 wrist light looks awesome. I wonder what batteries it uses? I'm guessing a proprietary li-ion like in a mobile phone.


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## Mr_Moe (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire - New flashlights 2012 video*



RedForest UK said:


> Wow, not only lots of massive upgrades to existing products, but some truly innovative ones too. That 2211 wrist light looks awesome. I wonder what batteries it uses? I'm guessing a proprietary li-ion like in a mobile phone.



Nice idea, reminds me of Star Trek. Might keep an eye on that.


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## DM51 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire - New flashlights 2012 video*

Merging similar threads...


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## Gallain (Jan 17, 2012)

*It´s going to be a expensive year... (Surefire 2012)*

It´s going to be a expensive year... 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1F9ftwTeEE

Finally decided to buy the EB1 and a new LX2 for myself. There are a couple of others I would like as well. 

which one you going to buy?


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## cland72 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: It´s going to be a expensive year... (Surefire 2012)*

I guess I don't see much difference between the E1B and EB1. More lumens? Slightly different design?


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## brianna (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: It´s going to be a expensive year... (Surefire 2012)*

The new eb1 will be 200 lumen's. The old e1b is 110 lumen's. The difference should be substantial. I just hope the run times get improved.


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## AR_Shorty (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: It´s going to be a expensive year... (Surefire 2012)*

This is assuming that what is in that video actually becomes available for purchase in 2012. A lot of it was shown at SHOT 2011 and still hasn't been released.


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## mcnair55 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: It´s going to be a expensive year... (Surefire 2012)*



Gallain said:


> It´s going to be a expensive year...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1F9ftwTeEE
> 
> Finally decided to buy the EB1 and a new LX2 for myself. There are a couple of others I would like as well.
> ...



None,that way will not be an expensive year.


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## molon__labe (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: It´s going to be a expensive year... (Surefire 2012)*

After years of no new lights and lacluster vaporware its nice to see a gaggle of new awesome lights. Go surefire!

And most are over that SF 200L ceiling.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: It´s going to be a expensive year... (Surefire 2012)*



> Plenty of new products proposed - I hope SureFire manage to release some.





> Surefire needs to release less videos and market interest probes, and just go make some damn lights.



Some of these lights were also 'new for 2011' it seems. Are these more 'concept cars' or will we actually see most of these lights on the market in the coming months? The UAR Aviator seems to be conspicuously missing from the list this year. In the real world, it is hard to get a professional pilot to spend $30, much less say, $500, on a light in my observation.



> There is only one thing missing from the following that would make them perfect ..... UM2 Ultra - P2X-B-BK Fury - LX2 Ultra - E1B ... PK's signature adorning each one.



There definitely seems to be less of the 'I wrote a puff piece on SF and PK sent me a purple light' CPF posts than in the past. Maybe some of the customary marketing 'gratuities' have been driven underground by recent U.S. Federal Trade Commission scrutiny of product blogging. Then again, perhaps the SF PK swag bags are being passed out at the SHOT Show as I type.



> *UDR Dominator* MRSP $1,370



That would limit the market for this light to a very small niche I would think. I wonder at what price points the R1 and R2 Lawmen will be introduced? Will cops go for a $700 duty light? Or even a $400 duty light? The days of the $600 toilet seats are fading fast as the U.S. military faces drastic cuts and the domestic economy remains in the doldrums.



> UBR Invictus (11-setting selector ring, 4-Function TailCap, rechargeable, TIR, 800 lumens)



Remember how not that long ago all the extra modes of the Chinese lights were ridiculed by SF fans? And how we were told that SF would never (again) use rechargeables? Here comes the era of the Swiss Army Knife Surefires.



> Is it just me or are Surefires starting to look like cheap Chinese imports? I really dont like the whole no grip scalloped look. It just looks cheap and tacky



I've made a similar observation on another thread. Somehow, the new entry level SF's just don't seem to me to be the same quality look and feel as say, the C2 and 6P. In the 2012 new product video, many of the mid and high end SF's now have knurling again it seems.

How much will SF ask for that UM2 that I want? $400 perhaps? Or $600?


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## BLUE LED (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

I definitely want the EB1, UM2 Ultra and 2211 wrist light.


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## 276 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

Lot of new lights hope they come out soon.


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## maxrep12 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

I'll ask one of the more pertinent questions:

At 500 + lumens, which of these lights will be compatible 18650's? If none, will they provide a yearly estimated cost of ownership for burning through cr123's? Not interested in rcr123's as a real option as they have absolutely anemic capacities.


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## cue003 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

The lumen wars are definitely in play with Surefire and everyone else.


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## calipsoii (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



maxrep12 said:


> At 500 + lumens, which of these lights will be compatible 18650's? If none, will they provide a yearly estimated cost of ownership for burning through cr123's?



Surefire manufacturers and sells their own line-up of CR123 batteries. What do you think? 

Joking aside, they announced the "dual fuel" line-up last year which means their lights will run on either a rechargeable battery pack or CR123's in a pinch. You'll notice that a lot of the new lights in the video have a charging jack built into the side - this is not there by accident.

Whether or not the battery pack will operate at the 3.7V we're used to with our 18650's or at some other voltage has not been mentioned.


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## seattlite (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

Wonder if the 2012 "E-series" form factor lights(EB1, LX2 Ultra) will be sealed? Seems like the SF is making it difficult to lego their new lights.


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## victory (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

So, i was always told "1 lumen per yard to see, 2 lumens per yard to identify" and i'm assuming that this hasn't changed because, you know, light is light.


So, someone tell me what is the point of a 500-700 lumen weapon mounted light? Do people just really like blinding themselves with back splash or do people just buy surefire nowadays to show off to their friends at night and never use otherwise?


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## funder (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



jh333233 said:


> I bet its XM-L, few point
> Surefire tends to use XM-L in current LED line
> They dont bluff lumen, XP-G with 500lm is on the edge of cliff, may even require overdriving, with R5 its only [email protected], and the maximum one stated by CREE is 493lm, with 7% of tolerable error, new bin isnt officially available yet IF the data sheet still holds, even S2 isnt widely available, let alone S3
> I hope they would re-design the optics utilizing XM-L
> ...



Agree, By using the XML, the new LX2 will have a decreased throw, from ~10K cd to ~5K cd, although the luminous flux is much increased.


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## Kestrel (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



cland72 said:


> I guess I don't see much difference between the E1B and EB1. More lumens?





brianna said:


> The new eb1 will be 200 lumen's. The old e1b is 110 lumen's.


I would have guessed 110 lumens vs 101 lumens for the E1B vs EB1, lol.


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## kyhunter1 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

If the new EB1 with 200 lumens is with a good binned XRE, then it may be a nice upgrade for me. Same beam with more throw and some increased brightness. If it is a wider angled led like the XPG or even more so with the XML, Im not as much interested in it. Runtime will be a factor too. Guys, for the record, I compared my 2009 model E1B (80 lumen version really 100+) to a 200 lumen E2DL and the difference between the two was not drastic. It will take a big improvement to bump it out of my pocket after being there for almost every single day for three years now. 500 Surefire lumens and beam quality out of a TIR really has my interest. Up to this point, I have not been overly impressed with the XML or larger led's in a small light with a reflector except for a few. My fav's are the Malkoff M91W and the Fury which I really like. The new Surefire line looks like they are trying to pick up the pace with the latest and greatest now to keep people buying. All I can say is, it's about time as long as quality is not replaced with something less in the process.


----------



## maxrep12 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



victory said:


> So, i was always told "1 lumen per yard to see, 2 lumens per yard to identify" and i'm assuming that this hasn't changed because, you know, light is light.
> 
> 
> So, someone tell me what is the point of a 500-700 lumen weapon mounted light? Do people just really like blinding themselves with back splash or do people just buy surefire nowadays to show off to their friends at night and never use otherwise?



Some of the benefits of XML emitters and 18650 battery capacities being demonstrated in todays light market are substantive increases in both lumens and run time. 


I have always taken general exception with the utility of lights designed for throw, precisely for the reasons you mentioned. "Showing off to their friends" as you say, is something of a novelty.


As a pro cyclist and product tester, I have a spent an enormous amount of time using high end bike lighting systems. In timed mtb courses, lights with floodier beams always prevail. Think of light as streaming information. A wider more expansive beam increases the "bandwidth" of information. On the other hand, concentrating lumens into a bright spot can actually restrict meaningful information. This is due to too sharp a contrast between the spill area of a light and its hot spot.


Visually, most of our information comes from outside the focal point of our eyes. At night, movement is largely detected with our peripheral vision. A light user's sense of ballance or footing, is substantially affected by their field of view.

Now that 500-700 lumen lights are becoming far more practical, treat yourself to one that provides more useable light. I'll take my dog out for a couple nice long walks each night with 750 flood lumens out of my sc600.


----------



## an_abstraction (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

Great set of lights this year (let's see how many make it to market - ha).

I really like the aesthetic direction Surefire is heading in with their styling.

500 lumens is way beyond any real world use for me.... maybe I'm just boring with my AA and AAA lights....


----------



## maxrep12 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



victory said:


> So, i was always told "1 lumen per yard to see, 2 lumens per yard to identify" and i'm assuming that this hasn't changed because, you know, light is light.
> 
> 
> So, someone tell me what is the point of a 500-700 lumen weapon mounted light? Do people just really like blinding themselves with back splash or do people just buy surefire nowadays to show off to their friends at night and never use otherwise?



Some of the benefits of XML emitters and 18650 battery capacities being demonstrated in todays light market are substantive increases in both lumens and run time. 


I have always taken general exception with the utility of lights designed for throw, precisely for the reasons you mentioned. "Showing off to their friends" as you say, is something of a novelty.


As a pro cyclist and product tester, I have a spent an enormous amount of time using high end bike lighting systems. In timed mtb courses, lights with floodier beams always prevail. Think of light as streaming information. A wider more expansive beam increases the "bandwidth" of information. On the other hand, concentrating lumens into a bright spot can actually restrict meaningful information. This is due to too sharp a contrast between the spill area of a light and its hot spot.


Visually, most of our information comes from outside the focal point of our eyes. At night, movement is largely detected with our peripheral vision. A light user's sense of ballance or footing, is substantially affected by their field of view.

Now that 500-700 lumen lights are becoming far more practical, treat yourself to one that provides more useable light. I'll take my dog out for a couple nice long walks each night with 750 flood lumens out of my sc600.


----------



## victory (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

Max, i understand the XML is a very efficient emitter. It's just that anyone who uses a weapon mounted light in real life would rather have 200 lumens and massive runtime. No question.


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

Talking about chinese lights......
Actually i have a light which is similar to the big light featured in the video, and my chinese light was produced 2 years ago
Heres the photo, massive head
http://postimage.org/image/uyzm2lv8n/5b389a2d/


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

Regarding the throw-or-spill problem
In my opinion, it depends on where you live
In my city, ambient light is too bright and a floody light wont shine over 30 meters while if you use it in a deserted place, it definitely throw far
If you use a throwy light in a place with no light, it will only shine a tiny bit of area
Thats why i prefer a tight spot because i just need it, and LX2 is my dream light


----------



## CarpentryHero (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

I'm stoked about how many had tir optics, the eb1 and wrist light are definitely on my list


----------



## maxrep12 (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



victory said:


> Max, i understand the XML is a very efficient emitter. It's just that anyone who uses a weapon mounted light in real life would rather have 200 lumens and massive runtime. No question.



Most of the surefire lights(non xml) will give you 150 to 200 lumens for 2 hours at about 5-5.5 inches in length. If you switch to an xml with efficient electronics, and use advanced batteries as well(3100mah 18650), you then have 200 lumens for 5.9 hours or 500 lumens for 2 hours in a 4.1 inch package(sc600 for example).

If a weapon mountable light is what you need, using xml emitters with efficient electronics and 18650 batteries will give you all the runtime you could hope for. Since these new lights can be far more efficient, you are not limited to a 200 lumen hotspot. With a wider 500-750 lumens, your peripheral vision is now back in play. Fast target acquisition.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



> Some of the benefits of XML emitters and 18650 battery capacities being demonstrated in todays light market are substantive increases in both lumens and run time.



Somehow, I doubt any of these new lights will take generic 18650's. And, the ones that SF specs as rechargeable will only take proprietary, one of kind, SF li-ion batteries à la cell phones, digital cameras and notebook computers. I guessed elsewhere that that the extra SF rechargeable batteries would cost maybe $80 each. Anybody got a 2012 SF price list yet?


----------



## victory (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



maxrep12 said:


> Most of the surefire lights(non xml) will give you 150 to 200 lumens for 2 hours at about 5-5.5 inches in length. If you switch to an xml with efficient electronics, and use advanced batteries as well(3100mah 18650), you then have 200 lumens for 5.9 hours or 500 lumens for 2 hours in a 4.1 inch package(sc600 for example).
> 
> If a weapon mountable light is what you need, using xml emitters with efficient electronics and 18650 batteries will give you all the runtime you could hope for. Since these new lights can be far more efficient, you are not limited to a 200 lumen hotspot. With a wider 500-750 lumens, your peripheral vision is now back in play. Fast target acquisition.



You wouldn't want to use rechargables in a weapon mounted light. Eventually, the repeated recoil will mash the terminals. More reliable to just use disposable cells. A wide beam is also not always beneficial. When shooting around cover you want to minimize splashback off the object you're shooting around. Over 200 lumens and you tend to end up blinding yourself with light splash off of walls.


----------



## NYShooter (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



victory said:


> Max, i understand the XML is a very efficient emitter. It's just that anyone who uses a weapon mounted light in real life would rather have 200 lumens and massive runtime. No question.



+1


----------



## AZPops (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



pulstar said:


> I wonder how would new TIR lens be able to focus the emitted light from big, fat XM-L I really liked the beam on my LX2 and i regret that i sold it...



I guess as I've found it's depends on how the optic is tuned. Not to go off topic, but to show what I'm saying is. This is a few photos (taken from my point and shoot Casio Exlim camera, so this to give an idea of the beam profile only) of Jason's Alpha A with an XM-L U2 combined his TIR Optic;


Quick shot of the business end after doing an U2 XM-L swap with a XM-L (in real time everything is centered).








U2 at 15 yards ...







U2 at 30 yards;

















so (since I'm still a noob, please feel free to _correct me if I'm wrong_) it can go either way, but from what I see with SF is it'll be tuned for distance, rather then flood.


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



victory said:


> You wouldn't want to use rechargables in a weapon mounted light. Eventually, the repeated recoil will mash the terminals. More reliable to just use disposable cells. A wide beam is also not always beneficial. When shooting around cover you want to minimize splashback off the object you're shooting around. Over 200 lumens and you tend to end up blinding yourself with light splash off of walls.


Also, on the field you will have no way to recharge the battery, when you reload your light, you probably wont pick up the drained rechargable and fill in charged battery


----------



## magnum70383 (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

no new aa lights?


----------



## Howecollc (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

The only reason I left my MagCharger for an L4 back in 2004 was for the tiny size. Now it seems like most every new Surefire that comes out is creeping back up toward MC proportions.


----------



## UpstandingCitizen (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



magnum70383 said:


> no new aa lights?



I was wondering the same thing. It seems like a lot of the higher end brands and manufacturers aren't interested in the AA/AAA format. Or maybe I'm missing something. 

I just realized that I'm literally five minutes away from the Surefire headquarters in Fountain Valley, CA. Maybe I'll have to swing by and lodge a complaint. :nana:


----------



## WarriorOfLight (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

 I like a few of the lights that were pesented in the video. The LX2 Ultra and the new Backup light looks cool. Also the UM2 may be very interesting, an light with 6 brightnes levels and selector ring.
At the moment I'm unsure about the rechargable lights. I think there are special rechargables in use, and I do not know if I really want this. I think this depends on price for such a rechargable cell.
At all if this lights will really come this year I'm sure I'll get a few new Surefires


----------



## iapyx (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

SF made me drool again. But then after a while I think there are only two lights that interest me: UM2 and the LX2 Ultra. I added an Invictus to my collection a while ago so I'll skip the UBR and UNR (the Dominator is out of my range, walletwise). So finally a U2 successor. In the meantime I've started to use my LX2 more than my U2. That means a slight preference for the LX2 Ultra. But ... let them first come out and we'll see how they perform. Tight beam or wide. 
SF at Shot Show is like a candy store. It just remains closed until further notice...


----------



## NoFair (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



victory said:


> So, i was always told "1 lumen per yard to see, 2 lumens per yard to identify" and i'm assuming that this hasn't changed because, you know, light is light.
> 
> 
> So, someone tell me what is the point of a 500-700 lumen weapon mounted light? Do people just really like blinding themselves with back splash or do people just buy surefire nowadays to show off to their friends at night and never use otherwise?



This is more about lux than lumen. A brighter floodier light won't make IDing a target easier at 30 meters, but it will give you more information about the area around the "target".


----------



## pjandyho (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

I thought many would agree with me that these new lights are real ugly but I was surprised to see so many claiming they like the new designs. I feel like the odd one out. Sorry guys, I just can't help feeling that these looks like some cheap Chinese knockoff from Deal Extreme. What's with all those sharp corners? I still prefer the old style SF designs. The 500 lumen TIR sounds great but I am not sure I like paying that much for something that doesn't appeal to me.


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

For the people who ask "Why no AA"
I would say, Why AA?
1. SF tends to use primary
2. AA alkaline is most common but cannot deliver a large current
3. If you say there are Eneloopes, sorry, not suitable to soldiers
3.1 If you say theres 14500 a.k.a. AA li-ion, sorry, SF dont suppose their user to use rechargables
4. AA Lithium primary are even more expensive than CR123a as they are produced by energizer only, and they are not available in bulk
5. Leaky AA may not be a major problem but SF doesn't even want a 0.000001% chance for error to occur, like "No liquid on planes"
6. AA cannot be stored for a long time, while SF wants to make their light handy. Unseal-and-use lights
7. Alkaline batteries have a lower energy density
Im sure that AA vs CR123a have been discussed for million*s* times so please use the search function, im outlining some major points only


----------



## ARA (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



pjandyho said:


> I thought many would agree with me that these new lights are real ugly but I was surprised to see so many claiming they like the new designs. I feel like the odd one out. Sorry guys, I just can't help feeling that these looks like some cheap Chinese knockoff from Deal Extreme. What's with all those sharp corners? I still prefer the old style SF designs. The 500 lumen TIR sounds great but I am not sure I like paying that much for something that doesn't appeal to me.



Completely agree with you on the aesthetics, the new designs just don't seem that appealing to me either. Though i am excited about the higher lumens and runtime. Lets see how long i can resist the temptation.......


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

Renewing the emitter, please renew the TIR too, i dont wanna stay with old TIR with XM-L, kind too floody


----------



## Xacto (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



purelite said:


> Is it just me or are Surefires starting to look like cheap Chinese imports? I really dont like the whole no grip scalloped look. It just looks cheap and tacky
> 
> Guess I am an old school SF fan



Same for me.

The wrist light looks interesting, question is, how usefull it can be. But that is a question I have since they first showed that concept on Star Trek.

With the ZM2 being a tactical-orientated light, I wonder why they choose a TIR optic which has less spill compared to reflector lights.

EB1 - although I prefer a two-stage UI, that light could become interesting.

Still hope for a 6P replacement head with 6PX/G2X tint and beam charakteristics..... just dreaming.

Cheers
Thorsten


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

Outdoor combat usually requires throw rather than spill and reverse in indoor combat
More lux(throw), blind stronger, even like a flashbang, while a floody light only gives you(or the target) a whitened vision, and not stunning
Some say a tight-spotted light couldnt shine into faces or eyes fast enough as you need to move the hotspot,
In my opinion, you(or he) is/are not skillful enough so you cannot aim accurately, dont blame the light for being too throwy
Like dont blame a Ferrari for being too fast and tough to handle/ Cant cook well because the stove is bad
Either adapt to the light(or let the light to adapt your tactic) or choose another one
Usually how i use a spotlight to blind people:
Eyes on his head, making a straight line
Raise your light to your sight-level, aim for the head
Pull the trigger and blind him
Its simple enough as long as you know the technique
If he runs away/evading from the beam, you actually won
If he rush to you without looking at you, you got the tactical advantage and its a great chance to give him a strike


----------



## dirtech (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

I agree also. Those things are fugly. EB1 doesn't look to bad. 



ARA said:


> Completely agree with you on the aesthetics, the new designs just don't seem that appealing to me either. Though i am excited about the higher lumens and runtime. Lets see how long i can resist the temptation.......


----------



## Rossymeister (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

These lights are lacking the "Classic" surefire look. I really dont like the new designs with no knurling, but to each his own..

I wonder how the charging jacks on these lights are going to affect the waterproofing?


----------



## iapyx (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



pjandyho said:


> I thought many would agree with me that these new lights are real ugly but I was surprised to see so many claiming they like the new designs. I feel like the odd one out. Sorry guys, I just can't help feeling that these looks like some cheap Chinese knockoff from Deal Extreme. What's with all those sharp corners? I still prefer the old style SF designs. The 500 lumen TIR sounds great but I am not sure I like paying that much for something that doesn't appeal to me.



+1
E.g. the old U2 is so much more appealing than this UM2. Where are the tough looks? Let's hope it's not about looks but more about performance.


----------



## magnum70383 (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

I totally agree with you. But I was hoping they will come out with a updated E2L AA with more output and so on. O well....



jh333233 said:


> For the people who ask "Why no AA"
> I would say, Why AA?
> 1. SF tends to use primary
> 2. AA alkaline is most common but cannot deliver a large current
> ...


----------



## NoFair (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



iapyx said:


> +1
> E.g. the old U2 is so much more appealing than this UM2. Where are the tough looks? Let's hope it's not about looks but more about performance.



My old U2 puts out 4-500 lumen and can use an 18650:devil:


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## iapyx (Jan 18, 2012)

NoFair said:


> My old U2 puts out 4-500 lumen and can use an 18650:devil:



Hehe yes that's what I'm thinking of: a nice U2 mod


----------



## Stainz (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*

Some how, *2000 Lumens...* the UDR Dominator... good grief! How many CR123s... and for how long?? Wow!

Stainz


----------



## Size15's (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*



Stainz said:


> Some how, *2000 Lumens...* the UDR Dominator... good grief! How many CR123s... and for how long?? Wow!
> 
> Stainz


17 SF123As


----------



## Imon (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*

Like a lot of the people in this thread I'm really interested in the LX2 Ultra...
I'm very excited to see how the TIR optic for the XM-L turns out. Hopefully the head of the LX2 Ultra is LEGO-able with my old LX2, especially since the body and tailcap look identical, and perhaps they can sell the head separately.
Although knowing Surefire they'll probably charge $180 just for the head.


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*



Size15's said:


> 17 SF123As


Looks like another battery blackhole...
Ever remember the SF Beast HID? 20 Cr123a, Riding a Ferrari for whole night is even cheaper than playing that light for night


----------



## Size15's (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*



> UDR Dominator (11-setting selector ring, *rechargeable*, reflector, 2000 lumens)


----------



## 276 (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*

Found this YouTube vid of the Surefire booth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT-ny7SeVo8


----------



## KDOG3 (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*

Im interested in the EB1 but I do not understand the facsination with leaving out a mid level. These modern lights need a medium "working light" setting.


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## jh333233 (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*



Size15's said:


>


Why hitting the head


----------



## Size15's (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*

I was a little annoyed that Stainz made no mention of the fact that the proposed UDR Dominator is a rechargeable flashlight, even though it is clearly listed in the very first post.

Of course like SureFire's other proposed rechargeable 'dutylights' it will be offered with a lithium battery magazine that can be used to provide power if you're unable to recharge it.

The UDR's lithium battery magazine holds twelve SF123As.

My remark about the UDR being powered by 17 SF123As was facetious but also intended to prompt going back and reading this thread and other existing info on the proposed UDR.


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*

It was already mentioned in the video and i think most of us know that, dont bear that in mind:nana:
I guess the primary batteries are for last resort or emergency usage if the rechargable fails or you cannot charge it on the field/ during the mission
Even though rechargable lowers the cost of usage, its not as reliable as cr123a, due to shelf life, heat-stablility etc but im not raising the Primary vs Rechargeable debate
Maybe the final purpose is to provide alternative power when either fails


----------



## Size15's (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*

It would be great to see a watertight container and belt pouch that the UDR's lithium battery magazine could be stored/carried/transported in.
The rechargeable lithium ion battery pack would ride when swapped out.
The UDR is probably too big for a belt pouch/holster itself - a carry strap is probably more useful?


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*

UDR is quite hefty to be carried on belt
Refer to my pics of the chinese-branded on Page 3, that guy has a similar head size with UDR but a slimmer batt. tube
It is already too heavy to be belted, let alone UDR
Maybe we gotta treat it as SR9_ Series from Olight


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 19, 2012)

Looks like very different versions of the wrist light are displayed at 2:56 of the SF new products video and 5:38 of the SF booth video (links to both videos in the first post of this thread). The wrist light at the booth has a Traser watch with H3 (Tritium) vials with a zinc sulfide phosphor on the dial, bezel and hands.


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## Mr Bigglow (Jan 19, 2012)

'Cam and Company', the NRA network show on Sirius radio, had a 10-15 minute segment from Surefire last night that had been taped at the SHOT show. All of the talk was about handhelds. On that, the SF rep stressed their new line of rechargeables (which is what the unwashed general public really wants I guess), plus their new light with a barrel mount switch (which the guy said was the result of police requests- and that I can believe), and also there was a fair amount of talk on SF's new light for women, the Isis, which was described as having factory-mounted bling of some sort.

I got the message that SF is really going out for private sales now that the wars of the last 10 years are winding down- in fact the Rep said they've been doing that for the past 5 years but if so, not so's I could notice even as a retired LEO.


----------



## flashy bazook (Jan 19, 2012)

Wow -- the Surefire shot show products (and catalog, when out) are one of the highlights of every new year. Thanks for posting!!

I am happy that Surefire finally is really strutting its stuff and getting on with the latest and greatest LEDs. I have been critical of them in the past for being hidebound, and the answer was usually -- "well, they sell to the military, what do they care"? I guess with the wars winding down, as someone posted, they have to please us the public, finally.

Now, with all these good developments, personally I have some strong preferences which are not met by the new Surefire products. I like very much the compatibility and interoperability we had with the previous Surefire lineups, because it is just extremely valuable to be able to use a new P60 drop-in to get the latest LED technology. If you want big lumen output, or runtime, or UV, or high CRI, or whatever, you don't have to buy a whole new light, just a new drop-in. When Surefire changed and made their new lights a more proprietary format, they lost me. If there is a capability they offer that is also available in this Surefire lego world, I would always prefer the lego.

Also, it's great they now allow rechargeables, but why again in some proprietary format? We all invested a lot of money in the 18500, 18650, ..., etc. world, and we want to be able to use them! Plus see how well the 18650 have been developing, we went from 2200 mAh to 3100 mAh in a few years. Personally I would not buy a proprietary rechargeable format. Of course, they are doing it to solve the problem--its easy to put out 2000 lumens, what is hard is to do it at a useful runtime. But they could have done it and been interoperable with the existing base of rechargeable batteries.

OK, having said that, what is left from the new Surefires that would tempt me? Basically, it is lights with unique capabilities. So the new angle-head with both white and red is interesting. Also, if you need IR, the Vampire is obviously interesting, since LEDs cannot produce enough IR spectrum with filters alone, you need specialized LEDs (of course the Vampire is not new with this year). Finally, the new X400 with the green laser is super interesting. That's a capability you don't have in lego!

I haven't yet had the time to look all these lights over super carefully, but of course I will.

Finally, what about looks? I think there is a kind of fashion to make things less angular and use more plasticky materials...Fenix has already gone down that road, and I think it has not been a good development. Give me a TK11 any time over these plastic ones. Same goes with nitrolon--just use it for very restricted uses, for general uses stay with metal.


----------



## jellydonut (Jan 19, 2012)

flashy bazook said:


> Wow -- the Surefire shot show products (and catalog, when out) are one of the highlights of every new year. Thanks for posting!!
> 
> I am happy that Surefire finally is really strutting its stuff and getting on with the latest and greatest LEDs. I have been critical of them in the past for being hidebound, and the answer was usually -- "well, they sell to the military, what do they care"? I guess with the wars winding down, as someone posted, they have to please us the public, finally.
> 
> ...


UV! That's my big disappointment in this lineup. If Surefire released a 500lm version of their Vampire.. but with a powerful 365nm ULTRAVIOLET LED instead of IR, I would pick one up immediately. Contractors, engineers and inspectors would line up like teenage girls for a Twilight movie for that one.


----------



## marinemaster (Jan 19, 2012)

I really like the new U2 but I am scared to ask how much it will cost. 

Going after private sales.....it won't be easy in this economy.


----------



## cland72 (Jan 19, 2012)

jellydonut said:


> UV! That's my big disappointment in this lineup. If Surefire released a 500lm version of their Vampire.. but with a powerful 365nm ULTRAVIOLET LED instead of IR, I would pick one up immediately. Contractors, engineers and inspectors would line up like teenage girls for a Twilight movie for that one.



I'm curious -- what sort of uses would one have for UV light?

Nevermind, Google is my friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet


----------



## Z-Tab (Jan 19, 2012)

Interesting to hear that the Isis is still in the works. I thought that was the least likely to happen of all their vaporware.

Any word on an update for the Titan? It looks like they're putting XM-Ls in everything else, how about the T1A?


----------



## jellydonut (Jan 19, 2012)

cland72 said:


> I'm curious -- what sort of uses would one have for UV light?
> 
> Nevermind, Google is my friend:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet


Particle inspection uses UV dyes. Refrigerants and many types of engine and equipment lubricant have UV dyes, to make it easier to see leaks. etc etc

A twist-head action to switch between UV and white beam would make that more useful as one wouldn't have to carry around two lights.


----------



## tab665 (Jan 19, 2012)

the UN3 commander and the devastator look awesome. must start saving now for when they come out in 2013.


----------



## mega_lumens (Jan 19, 2012)

I'm very surprised and excited about SF products this year. Finally, they're responding to consumer need for economical rechargeable options and caught up with expected high lumen LED tech. (My guess their consumer focus is back to LE/civilian market as the DOD joyride is coming to an end with expected dramatic wind-down in overseas operations.) 
Can't wait to see how their propriety rechargeable is designed to perform. 500 lumen lights are insanely good if they're regulated well. I'm most impressed by their new angle light with secondary LEDs and that wrist watch looking light, somewhat similar in concept to what FirstLight USA tried to address.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 19, 2012)

> 'Cam and Company', the NRA network show on Sirius radio, had a 10-15 minute segment from Surefire last night that had been taped at the SHOT show. All of the talk was about handhelds. On that, the SF rep stressed their new line of rechargeables (which is what the unwashed general public really wants I guess), plus their new light with a barrel mount switch (which the guy said was the result of police requests- and that I can believe), and also there was a fair amount of talk on SF's new light for women, the Isis, which was described as having factory-mounted bling of some sort.



You can find a video clip of the SF booth interview here under the January 18 tab, Stuart Yager, Surefire:

http://www.nranews.com/#/nranews/guide/ipg

Stuart mentions that the price of the UNR will be $595. He is wearing a red variant of the SF wrist light as he does the demos.


----------



## maxrep12 (Jan 19, 2012)

mega_lumens said:


> Finally, they're responding to consumer need for economical rechargeable options


Do you mean to say that the rechargeable lights from surfire will be an economical consumer purchase, or that the act of regharging despite the cost of the light, is economical?

Speaking of rechargeable, I have to wonder if the battery packs that are recharged are anything more than rechargeable 3.0 v cr123's in shrinkwrap. I hope that is not the case. Anybody who is accustomed to the draw of a high lumen output light, that can accept an 18650, certainly does not want to regress to the capacity that 3.0v rcr123's offer.


----------



## cue003 (Jan 19, 2012)

Hmmm, I am pretty sure sure that he said they have already began SHIPPING the Saint Maximus..... Did I misunderstand that?


----------



## 276 (Jan 19, 2012)

cue003 said:


> Hmmm, I am pretty sure sure that he said they have already began SHIPPING the Saint Maximus..... Did I misunderstand that?



I heard that too.
Its on there website, i have tried checking around but nobody has it.


----------



## busseguy (Jan 19, 2012)

I am also one that is dissapointed in the styling of the new surefires. I dont really like the smooth texture of these new lights.

But one that does peak my interested is the EB1. I am hoping that they are able to get atleast 1 hour out of it, and that it wont cost to much more than a standard E1B.


----------



## Anonnn (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



jh333233 said:


> For the people who ask "Why no AA"
> I would say, Why AA?...If you say there are Eneloopes, sorry, not suitable to soldiers



Jh333233, what reasoning do you use to support this statement?


----------



## yifu (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*

The military buys things in bulk. Rechargeables like eneloops are just not feasible as even with LSD, they lose most of their capacity in 2-3 years compared to the 10 of cr123s. Not to mention the obvious complexity of recharging and ensuring that front line soldiers have fully charged batteries. Primaries are much better in this regard.


Anonnn said:


> Jh333233, what reasoning do you use to support this statement?


----------



## KDOG3 (Jan 20, 2012)

busseguy said:


> I am also one that is dissapointed in the styling of the new surefires. I dont really like the smooth texture of these new lights.
> 
> But one that does peak my interested is the EB1. I am hoping that they are able to get atleast 1 hour out of it, and that it wont cost to much more than a standard E1B.


 Im hoping for two hours and a mid level. Maybe there will be an "easter egg" in the circuit to give it a mid level. One can only hope...


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: SureFire SS2012 'New Products'*



Anonnn said:


> Jh333233, what reasoning do you use to support this statement?


Which soldier would charge his/her battery on the field?
Besides, batteries are supplied by military or at least you dont have to worry about the power source


----------



## ico (Jan 20, 2012)

KDOG3 said:


> Im hoping for two hours and a mid level. Maybe there will be an "easter egg" in the circuit to give it a mid level. One can only hope...



The EB1 still is in the tactical category so I think a 3rd level would be too much


----------



## Mr Bigglow (Jan 20, 2012)

Z-Tab said:


> Interesting to hear that the Isis is still in the works. I thought that was the least likely to happen of all their vaporware.
> 
> Any word on an update for the Titan? It looks like they're putting XM-Ls in everything else, how about the T1A?



The Isis was in the interview for the interviewer to _ooo _and _ahh_ over. The Rep was saying things like 'these gems mounted here are for the ladies' - words to that effect. Of course one prototype does not a product make. We all rememeber the SF products that never appeared. 



yifu said:


> The military buys things in bulk. Rechargeables like eneloops are just not feasible as even with LSD, they lose most of their capacity in 2-3 years compared to the 10 of cr123s. Not to mention the obvious complexity of recharging and ensuring that front line soldiers have fully charged batteries. Primaries are much better in this regard.



I definately support that sentiment. Taking a rechargeable battery into a life and death situation is like taking in a firearm that _may or may not_ be loaded. Why, I would as soon buy my own batteries!


----------



## Xacto (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



jh333233 said:


> Outdoor combat usually requires throw rather than spill and reverse in indoor combat


Interesting, I didn't know that, although I must admit that so far I have only read about Low Light techniques in CQB.



jh333233 said:


> In my opinion, you(or he) is/are not skillful enough so you cannot aim accurately, dont blame the light for being too throwy


I was just wondering, not blaming any lights. ;-) Taking aim with the hotspot isn't a problem for me. My comment was rather based on what I have read and seen so far regarding lights for tactical applications.

After watching the Surefire shot show booth video, I must admit that the R1 Lawman somehow looks interesting, even though I am pretty sure that there are lights with similar UI's already available. The interest in the wrist lights is still there, too, although I haven't seen them at the beginning as lights for tactical applications.

Cheers
Thorsten


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

CQB situation requires flood more than throw as usually the target wouldnt be far-far-far away but closer than 30 meters
In this case, you dont specificly need a thrower, 30 meters are piece of cake to most light, no matter thrower or flooder
Throwers give you a tight spot but lacks prehipical vision


----------



## victory (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*



jh333233 said:


> CQB situation requires flood more than throw as usually the target wouldnt be far-far-far away but closer than 30 meters
> In this case, you dont specificly need a thrower, 30 meters are piece of cake to most light, no matter thrower or flooder
> Throwers give you a tight spot but lacks prehipical vision



Here is the difference between theory and practice. In CQB, when it comes to illuminating a room, it doesn't matter what your beam profile is. In any reasonable size room the splash from the walls is enough for my very tight beamed, 200 lumen LX2 to cause me to cast a shadow.

a beam with a very wide hotspot is also undesirable when shooting around cover as splashback from the object you are shooting around can blind you to what is beyond it.


----------



## mega_lumens (Jan 20, 2012)

maxrep12 said:


> Do you mean to say that the rechargeable lights from surfire will be an economical consumer purchase, or that the act of regharging despite the cost of the light, is economical?
> 
> Speaking of rechargeable, I have to wonder if the battery packs that are recharged are anything more than rechargeable 3.0 v cr123's in shrinkwrap. I hope that is not the case. Anybody who is accustomed to the draw of a high lumen output light, that can accept an 18650, certainly does not want to regress to the capacity that 3.0v rcr123's offer.



Yes, I meant recharing as apposed to being forced to use primaries only is very economical in the long run. Initial investment on a SF light is rarely "economical" unless there is some miracle blow-out sale.  I doubt SF will go with multiple rcr123 in shrink wrap, when there are much safer and rechareable options to drive these lights. But I suspect that SF will intentionally design their rechargeables to be poorer in performance so that their primary cr123 still dominate$. 

There are many tools in the military that rely on rechargeable batteries: communication, navigation, laptop systems come to mind. Unless people are part of some super OMFGDELTA, having rechargeable lights is not nearly as bad choice as some make it to be. Yes, primaries do perform better and more reliably in some conditions. But if you carry several lights for back up, you should be fine with rechargeable options. How many situations are there where people forget to swap their primary 123s; I'm sure it happens. And I have yet to meet any street cop who only uses primary batteries in lights. If there were many stories of rechargeable lights failing in these "life and death situations," we would see less use of rechargeable lights.


----------



## funder (Jan 20, 2012)

The catalog is ready for download:
http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/graphics/pagebuilder/pdfs/2012_SureFire_catalog_med_res.pdf


----------



## funder (Jan 20, 2012)

From the catalog, the LX2 ultra has 13,000 cds, this indicates that the emitter is not XM-L, most probably a fully driven XP-G instead.


----------



## Viper715 (Jan 20, 2012)

There claiming 500 lumens ANSI. I just dont see a XPG being able to do that. In fact I've never seen an XPG put out near that much especially for 3 minutes without having losses caused by heat. On top of that SF is usually a little conservative on there numbers so that should be the bare minimum. I'm betting SF is pulling some awesome TIR magic here. Heck that's why they throw so much $ at R&D.


----------



## funder (Jan 20, 2012)

Viper715 said:


> There claiming 500 lumens ANSI. I just dont see a XPG being able to do that. In fact I've never seen an XPG put out near that much especially for 3 minutes without having losses caused by heat. On top of that SF is usually a little conservative on there numbers so that should be the bare minimum. I'm betting SF is pulling some awesome TIR magic here. Heck that's why they throw so much $ at R&D.



The only way to increase throw to 13,000 cd and use XML at the same time is to use a larger diameter optics. TIR can not break the optical law.


----------



## 276 (Jan 20, 2012)

It says on some of the lights that they can be programmable, thats new.

and they finally updated the Kroma


----------



## Viper715 (Jan 20, 2012)

I agree I just don't see how they could do it with the XPG guess well have to wait and see. I see that the updated E2DL has 250 Lumens and 13,000 candela but the LX2 Ultra has 500 Lumens and 13,000 candela not sure what is going on except a bigger LED similar sized optic and all. 

I'm glad they are updating the MilSpec it's needed it for a while seems like they picked a nice output level in my opinion. 

Also on the regular LX2 they've updated brightness and you now have a choice of twisty 2 stage or a clicky. Not sure how that is going to work unless it will be more change like the E1B's and 6PX Pro. 

Very exciting stuff and I don't have enough money for all of it.


----------



## Glock 22 (Jan 20, 2012)

Now the LX2 500 lumens with a clicky I'll have to pick up one of them. I had the other version but I did'nt like the twisty tailcap but this sounds like it's right up my alley, also the EB1 is of intrest. Can't wait until they come out if they really do. Don't keep us waiting Surefire.:naughty:


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 20, 2012)

> From the catalog, the LX2 ultra has 13,000 cds, this indicates that the emitter is not XM-L, most probably a fully driven XP-G instead.



I'm not so sure. Kinda looks like the ad copy is preparing you for the sickly yellow-green tint of a high power XM-L: 'This highly efficient light emitting diode produces a higher component of yellowish-green light to which the human eye is most sensitive.' It's an illumination tool so aesthetics don't count and it's a SF so the greenish tint is a feature, not a flaw. And, yes, I'll probably buy one or two to complain about.:devil:

I realize there have been complaints about the green tints of the high power XP-G's as well, e.g.:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...nt-is-a-deal-breaker-Quark-AA2-T-alternatives

And, the emitter on page 14 of the catalog does indeed appear to me to be an XP-G.

Interesting that the programmable lights seem to optically couple to the USB programming dongle. Wonder if they use the emitter as a receiver or is there an IR diode somewhere in the head? Even the new LX2 is listed as programmable.

I see that the EB1 can now use a SF provided lithium phosphate rechargeable battery. The regular SF batteries appear to be somewhat relabeled in the catalog pictures.

Programmability, a multitude of modes including strobe and SOS, rechargeables and, finally, high lumen LED's seem to be major themes in the new lines of lights. All of these features have been available for years in other brands, SF now seems to an awakened industry giant suddenly playing catchup. The only 'old' emitter in the handheld lights that I saw was the A2L, even the venerable Mil-Spec appears to have been upgraded to 250 lumen white output.

No mention of PK in the SHOT Show videos or the new catalog that I can see. Is he still with the company? The SF dealer in Hong Kong even had PK shot glasses from years past in a display case last week.
Anyway, they do make a heckuva catalog!:thumbsup: Now let's see the price list and availability.


----------



## flashy bazook (Jan 20, 2012)

Many thanks to funder for posting that the Surefire catalog is available. It makes for great reading and eye candying!

A few thoughts I had as I read through the catalog to add to my initial thoughts I posted earlier before I had the catalog available.

First, cudos to Surefire, whether you like the direction they are going or not, they are hell bent on innovating across their line. They also promise big developments on HID lights, and for sure they'll be important to watch.

Next, on rechargeables. You have to be careful here as only a few models actually use Li-Ions (the proprietary Surefire ones). At other spots they say you can use the LiFePo4 type (they don't use the full name). Of course, this possibility has been there for quite a while, I ran my old (2nd gen) L1 with a LiFePo4 for years. You realize what is going on as Surefire mentions off handedly that they produce their own now (or sell under their own label...).

Also, for lights that have a recharge receptor directly on the light, you wonder what that does for waterproofing, you would think the light is no longer very waterproof.

Next, the 500 lumen outputs are not that impressive actually. I count 5 lights I already have for some time now at around 500 lumens using various configurations of LEDs and batteries. Various XM-L lights can do this easily, as can the MC-E and earlier LEDs in triple configurations.

Moving on to the 800 lumen range. This requires rather larger flashlights and the Surefire proprietary rechargeable batteries and the question is whether you can duplicate that type of capability without the Surefire restrictions. I like my Oveready 3x drop-in, which in a 2x18500 configuration (remember, this is equivalent to the 3x123 or 9P length) gives you a runtime of 75 minutes. Oh, this rather compact configuration gives out 1,100 lumens, bigger than 800 lumens.

Surefire has also gone in a big way to the multiple output, programmable lights (some of their lights have 11 settings!). Many people here prefer simplicity. The Oveready drop-in I mentioned earlier has a 1-mode and a 3-mode option, which I think is fine as you get a useful long-running option, a mid-power and the max blast. If you want a strobe, I think the Elzetta solution (max blast plus strobe) is what you need for true tactical situations. (if you need the 2 lumen output, don't use a 2 1/2 pound heavy flashlight with 12 batteries to get it!! Use a 1xAAA backup).

Then we have a new dominator at 2,000 lumens. This is a new capability for most people indeed. To get it, you need 12 batteries (or the Surefire rechargeable solution). If you truly need 2,000 lumens and 1,100 lumens is not enough, I guess you get it here.

Next, things that I think Surefire is offering which are capabilities not so easy to get elsewhere.

The TIR optic, for one, which adds to the Dominator's 2,000 lumen usefulness. Lots of the lights have it. I personally thought the new L2whatever Lumamax may be a very useful light as it gives the 2x123 formfactor plus the 500 lumens plus the TIR, plus what they describe as a new tint adapted to the human eye. Does this mean a high CRI light? If it does, it would make this particular new Surefire offering stand out for many. (the X300 Ultra weapon light also has this new LED, possibly meaning high CRI).

I continue to find their new Anglehead interesting, I didn't realize it's actually a 4xAA light (including lithium, alkaline, and rechargeable). You get 500 lumens for 5 hour runtime (my guess--only for the lithium AA's), also a floodier light from 3 weaker white LEDs, plus a 3-mode red LED output. So plenty of capabilities, with the runtime justifying the larger size of the 4xAA. Also for some the AA will be welcome.

I now see what makes the new "wrist" light attractive, it looks like something out of Startrek (the later series/movies!). Probably we would need to see it tested though. As I imagine its tactical usefulness, which Surefire hints at, it would have to be used on the same hand that is using the handgun. But then would this not create unwanted (and possibly distracting, even dangerous) shadows? So this needs to be tested.

Of course the IR capabilities and the new Green laser remain interesting speciality uses as I thought in my previous post, the catalogue does not add anything new here. It does say that the green laser is better for the human eye than the red laser, which I can believe.

Well, that's most of what caught my eye, also some new interesting looking suppressors, and weapon light attachments, a new knife that didn't grab me. The headdamps look interesting, available both in 123 and AA versions. These existed already, mostly, but there are some variations.

Oh, on the new looks--they make it even more evident how classic the previous generation of lights was in looks!


----------



## Z-Tab (Jan 20, 2012)

The T1A is getting a bump to 100 Lumens. That's a bit disappointing, I was hoping for 200, like the EB1. 

Otherwise, there are a lot of awesome lights to drool over... though it sounds like the 500 Lumen 2-cell lights are going to be green. At least the regular LX2 got bumped to 250 Lumens.


----------



## ElectronGuru (Jan 21, 2012)

flashy bazook said:


> I now see what makes the new "wrist" light attractive, it looks like something out of Startrek (the later series/movies!). Probably we would need to see it tested though. As I imagine its tactical usefulness, which Surefire hints at, it would have to be used on the same hand that is using the handgun. But then would this not create unwanted (and possibly distracting, even dangerous) shadows? So this needs to be tested.



The concept of wrist lights has been brought up before and is usually shot down within a matter of posts. What makes this new approach interesting is not the concept, but the execution. One of the videos shows 3 kinds of switching:


push the button
double tap the shell
use your hands in weapon holding posture​


So presumably, any conforming weapon can be grabbed at any time, with useful illumination provided, automatically, nothing extra special required.

If this operates as smoothly and reliably as it sounds, drawbacks like beam angle may be an acceptable compromise.


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 21, 2012)

Why clicky on LX2?
The biggest selling point of LX2 is the 2-stage LOTC and IMO it is more convenient than clicky+ circuit-controlled dual-output
Even a fully driven XP-G, it can only give out 463lm, and the maximum is [email protected] ninety something lm/w
Bin above R5 isnt readily available, so probably wont be XM-L, please refer to my previous reply


----------



## leon2245 (Jan 21, 2012)

^it sounds like you can still get it that way (viper said "Also on the regular LX2 they've updated brightness and you now have a *choice* *of twisty 2 stage* *or* *a clicky*"). If true, both camps will be happy.


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## jh333233 (Jan 21, 2012)

Viper715 said:


> I agree I just don't see how they could do it with the XPG guess well have to wait and see. I see that the updated E2DL has 250 Lumens and 13,000 candela but the LX2 Ultra has 500 Lumens and 13,000 candela not sure what is going on except a bigger LED similar sized optic and all.
> 
> I'm glad they are updating the MilSpec it's needed it for a while seems like they picked a nice output level in my opinion.
> 
> ...


LX2 coexist wth LX2U?


----------



## Dr. Strangelove (Jan 21, 2012)

i see that the E1L and E2L are missing from the catalog. Only the E2L AA and the updated E2D LED remain.


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## Z-Tab (Jan 21, 2012)

It looks like the EB1 might be the LX1 we've all been waiting for. There's an optional tailcap that the catalog suggests is a "Two-Stage Tactical." If I'm reading it right (and they actually release it), then this is the one that I might pay MSRP for.


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## Viper715 (Jan 21, 2012)

Ref the EB1 I think it's probably a standard twist and that's how you change modes but I could easily be wrong. 

Yes the LX2 and the LX2U are both in the catalog.


----------



## brianna (Jan 21, 2012)

The EB1:

Catalog states the light is available with a two stage tactical push switch or a twist switch. So two separate models of this light should be available.


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## jh333233 (Jan 21, 2012)

EB1 is definitely more attractive than LX2, and it sounds like the stillborn LX1
With 10k lux and being tiny


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## brianna (Jan 21, 2012)

I really hope I did read the EB1 switch description correctly. If they combine the two combinations, sound like one complicated switch. So hopefully there will be two models and you get to pick the switch you want. I want the simple click switch just like the old model EB1 had.


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## FPSRelic (Jan 21, 2012)

Regarding the emitters these new lights are using. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that they're using the newer neutral XPE emitters similar to those used in the new Modoo triple's from Oveready. They supposedly put out as much light as XPG's but with more focus. Not sure if they would be capable of putting out 500 lumens though.


----------



## FPSRelic (Jan 21, 2012)

brianna said:


> I really hope I did read the EB1 switch description correctly. If they combine the two combinations, sound like one complicated switch. So hopefully there will be two models and you get to pick the switch you want. I want the simple click switch just like the old model EB1 had.



I read it as saying that you have the choice of buying either one with a clicky like the e1b OR one with a momentary button constant on twist like the L1 and LX2. My guess is the programmability in both the eb1 and lx2 is going to be the ability to use the clicky in low/hi or hi/low operation. This would mean that the eb1 could replace the e1b, e1l, and act as the replacement for the l1. Maybe they can do this with one light and 2 different tailcaps?


----------



## iapyx (Jan 21, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> Why clicky on LX2?
> The biggest selling point of LX2 is the 2-stage LOTC and IMO it is more convenient than clicky+ circuit-controlled dual-output
> Even a fully driven XP-G, it can only give out 463lm, and the maximum is [email protected] ninety something lm/w
> Bin above R5 isnt readily available, so probably wont be XM-L, please refer to my previous reply



I guess it's because of the clip being too long causing scratches on the tailcap if it remained a twisty.  
They could have made the clip a bit shorter so it could remain a twisty. 
Personally I prefer a clicky over a twisty.


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 21, 2012)

iapyx said:


> I guess it's because of the clip being too long causing scratches on the tailcap if it remained a twisty.
> They could have made the clip a bit shorter so it could remain a twisty.
> Personally I prefer a clicky over a twisty.


Ive seen a newer version of LX2 on this forum
It comes with new surefire logo and E1b short clip


----------



## iapyx (Jan 21, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> Ive seen a newer version of LX2 on this forum
> It comes with new surefire logo and E1b short clip



Sounds like a logical developement.
I'm eyeing that new LX2 Lumamax Ultra. For me the choice will be between the UM2 and LX2 Lumamax Ultra, with the LX2 having the advantage over being cheaper (likely) and shorter ((14,2 cm vs 18,2 cm) and thinner (2,9 vs 3,7 cm). Both have a beam tightening TIR. So the successor of the U2 will not be floody. 
The new LX2 looks like a winner to me.


----------



## Flashlight Dave (Jan 21, 2012)

From the catalog it looks to me that the LX2U is a traditional two stage twisty. I am not sure if you guys have seen more info from somewhere else. Personally I like the twisty. I was wondering since the head is different and takes a XM-L would it work with a F04 diffuser? Anyone know??


----------



## iapyx (Jan 21, 2012)

Flashlight Dave said:


> From the catalog it looks to me that the LX2U is a traditional two stage twisty. I am not sure if you guys have seen more info from somewhere else. Personally I like the twisty. I was wondering since the head is different and takes a XM-L would it work with a F04 diffuser? Anyone know??



Yes, I guess you're right, from what I just read in the catalog.


----------



## flashy bazook (Jan 21, 2012)

ElectronGuru said:


> The concept of wrist lights has been brought up before and is usually shot down within a matter of posts. What makes this new approach interesting is not the concept, but the execution. One of the videos shows 3 kinds of switching:
> push the button
> double tap the shell
> use your hands in weapon holding posture​
> ...



ElektronGuru,

thanks, very interesting points.

I had one more thought, the tactical momentary tailcaps have the objective to give complete and easy control to the light operator over dark as well as light. This wrist mechanism, suppose it goes on exactly as planned. Is it as easy to go back to darkness and then light again as it is with the momentary clicky?

And could it automatically go on at an unfortunate time, when the operator would wish to preserve darkness for longer?

Maybe the main use of this wrist type of flashlight is another way to carry just a regular (not a tactical) light, so you don't need a holster, or a pocket carry, etc. Maybe it will become a fashion statement?!


----------



## Federal LG (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*

Awesome!! I love the new EB1! Can´t wait to see 200 SF lumens from that little light!

What price do you think it will have?

I realize the lack of the good old "Surefire knurling" in most of these new lights. I like SF knurling...


----------



## brianna (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*



Federal LG said:


> Awesome!! I love the new EB1! Can´t wait to see 200 SF lumens from that little light!
> 
> What price do you think it will have?
> 
> I realize the lack of the good old "Surefire knurling" in most of these new lights. I like SF knurling...



I am so excited about this new light, I wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it. My guess on the price is that is will cost $175 since the current model is $160 and they will add the cost of inflation on to the new pricing. I want the knurling back as well, sick and tired of the slippery feeling. They are so worried about this smoothness then the head should be smooth too and get rid of that stupid scalloping.


----------



## ico (Jan 21, 2012)

Who is PK?


----------



## Federal LG (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*



brianna said:


> I am so excited about this new light, I wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it. My guess on the price is that is will cost $175 since the current model is $160 and they will add the cost of inflation on to the new pricing. I want the knurling back as well, sick and tired of the slippery feeling. They are so worried about this smoothness then the head should be smooth too and get rid of that stupid scalloping.



EB1 head looks slightly longer than E1B head...

Did they say WHEN it will be released? This new EB1 is my dream light! I remember few years ago people asked me how would be the perfect light and I said something like "an E1B with LX2 output!".

To be even more perfect only if Surefire release an EB1 with natural colored HA! That would be really awesome!


----------



## Federal LG (Jan 21, 2012)

ico said:


> Who is PK?



Paul Kim, VP of Engineering. The genius behind the most of Surefire illumination tools.


----------



## Entrope (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: Shot Show 2012: Surefire 'New Products'*

_(Post Removed)_


----------



## StuGatz (Jan 22, 2012)

Apologies for the initiation of a superfluous thread here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?331353-Surefire-semi-live-from-SHOT-2012

Here are the videos if at all helpful: 

That said, Stuart from Surefire provided a little live update on the new and semi new product lineup for 2012 as well as the progress over the past year...

As usual, please *CLICK THE PICS*:


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## Roger999 (Jan 22, 2012)

That wrist light looks cool but would probably cost over $500 since the watch is already $200 .


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## Viper715 (Jan 22, 2012)

Awesome! Thanks for the vids!

I wish they would be the 4-Way switch in a little smaller of a light something like a 6P/C2 2 two battery size light. Lights that are as big and front heavy as the UB3 and UNR are awkward for me to hold that close to the tail but I really want to play with one of those switches.


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## pjandyho (Jan 22, 2012)

ico said:


> Who is PK?


Our father, Padre Kim.






Ok, was pulling your legs. He is Paul Kim, designer and inventor of many great Surefire products. His hairstyle reminds me of Albert Einstein.


In our last email, PK told me that he is no longer actively involved in the design of SF products and is only helping in overseeing the larger projects with SF. He is now mainly involved in the Icon. I guess that explains the horrid looking designs on some of the new Surefire. They just look more like toys and cheap Chinese junk now and seemed to loose some of that Surefire aura. I don't really know what is wrong or lacking, but I seem to sense the change. Maybe it comes from my many years of buying and using SF products.


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## Harry999 (Jan 22, 2012)

I finally managed to download the 2012 catalogue and have a look at the specs on the lights. I might consider getting an upgraded E2DL. However, to my surprise there was one light that stood up as a real potential want. Their SAL Anglelight actually runs on 4xAA. When I first saw it I thought it was a CR123A run light but at 4AA with a 500 lumen max on the primary LED and with secondary LEDs providing a low level flood and a tertiary LED which is red this is a really desirable light to me. 

Not only does it have applications as a walking/hiking light I think it potentially is a great reading and night light combined. It takes one of my favourite anglelights - the Fenix MC11 and just adds everything I want added. I definitely want this.


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## Federal LG (Jan 22, 2012)

pjandyho said:


> ... He is now mainly involved in the Icon. That explains the horrid looking designs on some of the new Surefire. They just look more like toys and cheap Chinese junk now and seemed to loose some of that Surefire aura. I don't really know what is wrong or lacking, but I seem to sense the change. Maybe it comes from my many years of buying and using SF products.



Hello PJ! :thumbsup:

I totally agree with you. 

I didn´t like the design of a lot of 2012 models. Where´s the outstanding/famous Surefire knurling + natural colored HA?

Some of the lights didn´t look like a SF at all! :sick2:


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## Federal LG (Jan 22, 2012)

I found some websites announcing the new 2012 Surefire EB1 for 220-230 dollars! I don´t know if this is the correct/final price, but I think it´s too expensive...

I was thinking in something around 180-190 dollars. :sigh:


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 22, 2012)

> No mention of PK in the SHOT Show videos or the new catalog that I can see. Is he still with the company? The SF dealer in Hong Kong even had PK shot glasses from years past in a display case last week.





> Who is PK?





> He is Paul Kim, designer and inventor of many great Surefire products. His hairstyle reminds me of Albert Einstein.



It would be difficult to overstate the PK personality cult that has flourished here on CPF in years past. And, as Dizzy Dean echoed the thoughts of Walt Whitman before the 1934 baseball season: 'If you done it, it ain't bragging.'

For example:



> Dear Great Leader, King of ALL aluminum tubes that emit light,



http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-question!!!&p=2915412&viewfull=1#post2915412



> PK ~vs~ Chuck Norris



http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?312504-PK-vs-Chuck-Norris



> Happy Birthday PK, once again!



http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?182843-Happy-Birthday-PK-once-again!

PK in the past would give out special PK logo editions of the Surefire lights to some folks on CPF and elsewhere that would later fetch a high price on the collector's market:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ollection-7-High-End-Surefire-Lights-PICTURES


http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...PER-RARE-PK-edition-KROMA-set-for-sale-**SOLD**

PK has helped get a Surefire donation to bail out CPF in past hard times:



> CPF was in dire financial straits. To help and support CandlePower Forums, SureFire LLC supplied, free of charge, 50 of a limited edition of the G2, hot-stamped on the bezel with our logo, the “CPF 50 Specials”. (Batteries and LA included !)
> The value of this gift is $2,500, enough to make a big difference ……
> 
> This donation was for the purposes of extricating CPF from then current financial indignities, and assuring the continuance of “CandlePower Forums, The Independent Discussion Board”.
> ...



http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Matthews-CPF-Contribution-Thank-You-SureFire-!

Given PK's past stature here on CPF and his close identification with SF lights, I was surprised that he is no longer mentioned in the SF catalog and was not visible at the SHOT 2012 Show.



> In our last email, PK told me that he is no longer actively involved in the design of SF products and is only helping in overseeing the larger projects with SF. He is now mainly involved in the Icon. That explains the horrid looking designs on some of the new Surefire.



Thanks for the update Andy, it does appear that SF has taken a bold new course in the product line.


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## Flashlight Dave (Jan 22, 2012)

I was looking at the catalog again and noticed what many of you probably already know and that is the LX2 is available with a clicky switch while the LX2U is not. This clears up the issue for me. Also, it seems that the new LX2 is using a new LED in that they say in the catalog that the led is larger than the previous model.

One more thing, from reading the catalog is sounds like the clicky on the LX2 is only on/off and not two stage.


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## foxtrot824 (Jan 22, 2012)

I was wondering about the SAL Anglelight, In the catalog it looks like the main emitter is an XP-G but with an output of 500 lumens I would think it has to be an XM-L. Does anyone have any thoughts? I can't see clearly enough in the picture in the catalog.


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## iapyx (Jan 22, 2012)

Flashlight Dave said:


> I was looking at the catalog again and noticed what many of you probably already know and that is the LX2 is available with a clicky switch while the LX2U is not. This clears up the issue for me. Also, it seems that the new LX2 is using a new LED in that they say in the catalog that the led is larger than the previous model.
> 
> One more thing, from reading the catalog is sounds like the clicky on the LX2 is only on/off and not two stage.



The clicky version of the LX2 is probably a two-stage click. First click for high, one more click for low. Could be vice versa, but if I am correct there's another SF light that works this way. 

_One positive thing about the new designs:_ I do like the new tailcap of the UM2, ZM2, DM2 (why not a *DM51*? CPF has some influence, right?)


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## jssp78 (Jan 22, 2012)

EB1 with a twisty would be great although a knurl body of the E1L would be better.


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## marinemaster (Jan 22, 2012)

Surefire catching up with the other manufacturers lumens output....what some members need to understand is that Surefire means reliability, UI second and lumens third. 

To keep it on topic the new U2 looks great.


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## jellydonut (Jan 22, 2012)

Surefire has done it. TRUE programmable lights. Not this complete idiocy where you are sat clicking like a maniac 30 times to change a setting.

This is the stuff I've been fantasizing about since I got into lights in 2008. Flashing light, using the LED as a sensor in order to program the light. USB connection to the computer. Perfect, user-friendly and neat.

So much for Surefire getting stale. God, I want that new LX2 now.


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## Federal LG (Jan 22, 2012)

I would love a natural colored EB1...

A question to LED experts: about this new EB1, what will be the runtime in high mode (200 lumens)?


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 22, 2012)

> Surefire has done it. TRUE programmable lights. Not this complete idiocy where you are sat clicking like a maniac 30 times to change a setting.



As much as I like Henry's lights, I was thinking the same thing.:thumbsup:

Now, let's see if they can actually deliver this magic dongle before Windows 19 comes out.



> A question to LED experts: about this new EB1, what will be the runtime in high mode (200 lumens)?



Well according to the SF 2012 catalog on page 38, 1.3 hours. The note on page 1 explains that this is to 50 lumens for the high mode. SF has used various standards in the past for runtime, useable light, useful light, tactical light, ten percent, one lumen etc. I guess 50 lumens and one lumenoo: are the latest benchmarks for runtime cutoff from the note on the table of contents.


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## pjandyho (Jan 22, 2012)

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> As much as I like Henry's lights, I was thinking the same thing.:thumbsup:
> 
> Now, let's see if they can actually deliver this magic dongle before Windows 19 comes out.


Does it work with Mac? LOL! I hope it is cross platform compatible though.


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## jh333233 (Jan 23, 2012)

Federal LG said:


> I found some websites announcing the new 2012 *Surefire EB1 for 220-230 dollars!* I don´t know if this is the correct/final price, but I think it´s too expensive...
> 
> I was thinking in something around 180-190 dollars. :sigh:


In this case, i think the LX2 and LX2U would have a even higher price :/
Im sticking with the old 200lm LX2 and wait until my dealer have a price drop on sale


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## leon2245 (Jan 23, 2012)

Flashlight Dave said:


> I was looking at the catalog again and noticed what many of you probably already know and that is the *LX2 is available with a clicky switch while the LX2U is not. *This clears up the issue for me. Also, it seems that the new LX2 is using a new LED in that they say in the catalog that the led is larger than the previous model.
> 
> One more thing, from reading the catalog is sounds like the clicky on the LX2 is only on/off and not two stage.




In that case we might see a few LX2's with an LX2U tailcap on the MP, & vice versa. Unless SF starts selling that L size clicky tailcap separately.


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## jh333233 (Jan 23, 2012)

Actually i always prefer 2-stage done by tailcap but not UI
For UI you can only get high first then low, but with the tailcap you can get instant high or instant low, depends on how hard you press it
But why would we see crossovers of tailcap and 2 lx2?


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## pjandyho (Jan 23, 2012)

Since we are all speculating, I will add my speculation. I don't think it makes business sense to have two different heads for the LX2. The current LX2 uses a resistor in the tail cap to achieve low output. I figure the new LX2 would do the same too and for SF to make a dual output LX2 using a clicky switch, it will mean they need to design a different head allowing for two different output. Don't make sense in keeping the cost low. I suspect the clicky version might either be a single output LX2, or it could probably be a two output tail cap like what Elzetta is doing.


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## jh333233 (Jan 23, 2012)

Or putting the driver in tail directly
Single output LX2, basically = KX2C


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## FPSRelic (Jan 23, 2012)

Goingear have posted a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_SAR2Ve-JY&feature=g-u-u&context=G2260fa8FUAAAAAAAAAA

It has info on the EB1


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## Flashlight Dave (Jan 23, 2012)

marinemaster said:


> Surefire catching up with the other manufacturers lumens output....what some members need to understand is that Surefire means reliability, UI second and lumens third.



+1


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## jh333233 (Jan 23, 2012)

FPSRelic said:


> Goingear have posted a video:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_SAR2Ve-JY&feature=g-u-u&context=G2260fa8FUAAAAAAAAAA
> 
> It has info on the EB1


Great, he said eb1 has a larger diameter head
Equals to a re-designed TIR, and might result in a spotty beam profile as well as new emitter


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## jh333233 (Jan 23, 2012)

In the video they said the light uses TIR, but the rechargable lights seemed to be using reflector......


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## FPSRelic (Jan 23, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> Great, he said eb1 has a larger diameter head
> Equals to a re-designed TIR, and might result in a spotty beam profile as well as new emitter



Quoted From about 0:43 onwards in the video:

"It's a larger optic, to accomodate a higher output level, (it will) better disperse the higher amount of lumens that's coming from this light. (It will) give you better flood, as well as great projection"

I'm interpreting this as him saying that it will have a floodier beam than the e1b, with at least the same amount of throw.


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## FPSRelic (Jan 23, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> In the video they said the light uses TIR, but the rechargable lights seemed to be using reflector......



From reading the previosly linked Surefire catalog, the UNR Commander and the UNR Invictus use TIR, and the R1/R2 lawman and UDR Dominator use reflectors.


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## leon2245 (Jan 23, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> But why would we see crossovers of tailcap and 2 lx2?



For those of us who'd want the ultra with a clicky, we could buy both, swap the tailcaps, then sell the LX2 with the U's twisty.


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## iapyx (Jan 23, 2012)

pjandyho said:


> Does it work with Mac? LOL! I hope it is cross platform compatible though.


:thumbsup:


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## iapyx (Jan 23, 2012)

I'm a bit surprised about the UM2 having a tight TIR lens focussed beam as it says in the catalog. 
The old U2 has a floody beam. This way the UM2 is not really a U2 successor. 

Just speculating here with the info I get from the catalog. It would be interesting to see a comparison between the UM2, U2, LX2U and LX2.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 23, 2012)

> I'm a bit surprised about the UM2 having a tight TIR lens focussed beam as it says in the catalog.
> The old U2 has a floody beam. This way the UM2 is not really a U2 successor.



I was hoping the U2 upgrade would still have a reflector, it looks like the die on the XM-L is comparable in size to the one on the SSC P4. I always thought my U2's had the nicest beams of any of my SF's. I notice the beam more than most folks since I often shine the light on a large white aircraft surface at work. 500 lumens makes a difference this time of year in the Northern Hemisphere when you are checking for signs of frost forming on a wing or tail surface.


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## cue003 (Jan 23, 2012)

pjandyho said:


> Since we are all speculating, I will add my speculation. I don't think it makes business sense to have two different heads for the LX2. The current LX2 uses a resistor in the tail cap to achieve low output. I figure the new LX2 would do the same too and for SF to make a dual output LX2 using a clicky switch, it will mean they need to design a different head allowing for two different output. Don't make sense in keeping the cost low. I suspect the clicky version might either be a single output LX2, or it could probably be a two output tail cap like what Elzetta is doing.



According to their catalog there are two different versions. One that has 250/5 as the output and the other has 500/10. How would you get the output of one vs the other by simply swapping tail caps??


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## pjandyho (Jan 23, 2012)

cue003 said:


> According to their catalog there are two different versions. One that has 250/5 as the output and the other has 500/10. How would you get the output of one vs the other by simply swapping tail caps??


I don't think you understood what we are all talking about. Anyway, the LX2U (500/10 lumen) spot only the two stage twist type tail cap whereas the LX2 (250/5 lumen) is the one we are all talking about here. That is the one that is available with choice of a two stage twist tail cap or clicky. Got it?


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## jh333233 (Jan 23, 2012)

cue003 said:


> According to their catalog there are two different versions. One that has 250/5 as the output and the other has 500/10. How would you get the output of one vs the other by simply swapping tail caps??


You cant
LX2 =/= LX2U
LX2 was just a newer version while LX2U is a new design/new product
LX2 should be XR-E
LX2U should be XM-L
The guts should be different, i.e. driver


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## wbrock001 (Jan 23, 2012)

Any statements on when all of this new flashlight goodness will be in our sweaty palms??!! They announced the rechargeables last year and they're still not out...


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## Sgt. LED (Jan 23, 2012)

2-8 years


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## iapyx (Jan 23, 2012)

wbrock001 said:


> Any statements on when all of this new flashlight goodness will be in our sweaty palms??!! They announced the rechargeables last year and they're still not out...



We don't.
My advise: don't expect anything so you will not be disappointed. 
Not that I can live by my own advise. hehe
Personally I think the UBR will see the light as well as the upgraded LX2 and E2DL and hopes are for the UM2 and LX2U. 
Let's see.


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## cue003 (Jan 23, 2012)

pjandyho said:


> I don't think you understood what we are all talking about. Anyway, the LX2U (500/10 lumen) spot only the two stage twist type tail cap whereas the LX2 (250/5 lumen) is the one we are all talking about here. That is the one that is available with choice of a two stage twist tail cap or clicky. Got it?



Now I got it. Understood.


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## Viper715 (Jan 23, 2012)

I think the upgrades like LX2 E2DL will be soon as in sometime this year. Maybe a rechargeable or too and hopefully the EB1 this year too. The new products like wrist light and angleheads along with the flashy new programable models I don't think we will see before at least shot show next year. But a man can dream cant he.

Oh and I'm hoping for that upgrade Kroma to come out soon too.


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## Z-Tab (Jan 23, 2012)

It looks like the Maximus is making its way down the supply chain. That's a rechargeable, so it's a pretty big step toward making some of these other lights a reality.

Of course, it's all guesswork from there. I suspect that we're going to see some of the completely new lights, like the UBR and the R1, before we see the updates on the old stuff. In any case, whatever you want most will probably never be released.


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## Flashlight Dave (Jan 23, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> You cant
> LX2 =/= LX2U
> LX2 was just a newer version while LX2U is a new design/new product
> LX2 should be XR-E
> ...



I am wondering if the new LX2 still uses the old XR-E led? I would think it to be a bit much for a XR-E to push 250 Surefire lumens OTF. They would have to be pushing the led kinda hard and that is not common for Surefire.

Now from what I understand the current model LX-2 actually does produce 250 actual lumens according to one of our CPF members. I was wondering could it be that Surefire has the same old LX2 for its 2012 line up only now telling us the true lumen output similar to what they did with the “upgraded” E1B?

P.S. I don't know what to make of the 2 stage clicky with this light. Not sure if that will be in the tail or head.


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## Tommygun45 (Jan 23, 2012)

Color me unimpressed.

I am a strong proponent of Surefire but this refresh just really doesn't do anything for me. I fell in love with my 6P, C2, and Z2. Now I just sit at night with my E1b/E1l/A2l and play with them when I watch tv. Along with my Rotary of course. Surefire's just feel good in the hand. The wonderful anodizing and grippy feel that almost scratch your hand but let you get an excellent grip are rewarding to hold. I got a 6PX Pro and aside from its QC issues (bump it and it changes modes?) the design left alot to be desired. I understand that this has been fixed in more recent models but how the hell did that happen in the first place? It was a sign of things to come.

I like that they are basically keeping the design of the LX2 intact, but what are they doing to the E1b? I don't even have a use for my E1b. I keep it, unused, because of its look. It looks bad *** to me. It is just this sleek black aggressive looking body (I have an E2DL tc on it) and it has curves. This new refresh seems to fatten the head and just makes the entire light look more domesticated, more tame, more bloated. Its like the E1b was that hot girl in high school, and the EB1 is her pudged up 3 kids later at your 10 year reunion. There is no sex appeal to it anymore. Hopefully it can at least run an RCR because that way I may consider it. And certainly don't bump it over $200. Keep these lights where they are price wise. They should drop all of their existing lights to their old price levels and put these replacement models at the current prices. Otherwise they are getting out of hand, especially if, as they say, they are making strides towards the consumer market. Who the hell is going to spend over $500 for a flashlight? I still have no idea how the A2L-WH I have is a $316 light. Luckily I got it on the MP for $95. About where it should be in the first place IMO.

Is it me or do these new rechargeable lights look an awful lot like the older 9AN lights. Did their old designer come back or what? Is that port even waterproof? Why not have a conductive base to sit the thing on so you dont have a weakpoint? Why the hell are they so huge? Who's going to carry that thing around if it doesn't fit in your pocket? I don't want to have a 10 inch light hanging from my belt. Maybe that entire line isn't directed at me, as a consumer flashlight hobbyist, but is it really necessary to have them that big? Sunwayman does a pretty good job integrating their control ring in smaller bodies if thats the approach you want to take. Can't you go with a 1x18650 approach and get respectable run times like Malkoff? I keep thinking these lights are on clearance already at LA Police Gear. 

Another issue I had is in the brochure there is a "flashlight selection guidance" section written by their founder. He starts out talking about how Surefire revolutionized the industry by showing that a 6P could be a powerful flashlight in a small size. Seems like they have lost that vision. If Malkoff is cranking out modules that have been putting the Surefire modules to shame for years, in their own lights, maybe they should hire him. Also his MD2/3 is beautiful. The hound dog and wildcat are certainly in a far smaller form factor than some of these larger lights, but I bet they are comparable in output. Maybe they should hire Gene. 

And last but not least, WTF is with the 'lady light'. And the corresponding 'man light'? WHAT!? I just showed it to my girlfriend and said, say what comes to mind. "Wedding ring? No, [I shouldn't repeat what she said]." Is that really the response they want? I gave her an E1L and she loves it.


Surefire, get your act together. Stop wasting your time with lame *** concepts and silly ideas and focus on making high quality lights. Did you read the thousands of posts on here about how people wanted an LX1? Would it be that hard? But no, ignore us and hopefully you can crank out a $159 lady light by Christmas. 

We buy your lights because they are bad ***. Because they are simple, and reliable as hell. We buy them for their allure. We buy them because the military uses them, so they must be good. We buy them because they are upgradable. We don't buy them because they have 19 modes and have usb ports. I suppose you have to evolve at some point but you should realize what makes you you. Then make it better. Don't copy the inferior competition. Improve on what you have by sticking to the principles that makes your existing product line successful. 

Oh well, just my .02.


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## Size15's (Jan 23, 2012)

Tommygun45, You've made grasping your point clear without the need to resort to hotlinking inappropriate content.
We have the Underground if you have difficulty expressing yourself in a family-friendly forum


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## Federal LG (Jan 23, 2012)

Sgt. LED said:


> 2-8 years



 :twothumbs


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## funder (Jan 23, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> You cant
> LX2 =/= LX2U
> LX2 was just a newer version while LX2U is a new design/new product
> LX2 should be XR-E
> ...


 
The surface area of XML is four times of XR-E/XP-E. LX2U has twice luminous flux but same intensity of LX2, this indicates the emitter area of LX2U is twice of LX2. So the emitters of LX2/LX2U should be XP-E/XP-G or XP-G/XML.


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## conan1911 (Jan 23, 2012)

Just for what it's worth, PK is not the VP of Engineering. He is the VP of Consumer Products, ie ICON. That's me in the video. Many of you know me. I will take some time tomorrow to address your questions. Thanks for all the support!


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## Illumination (Jan 23, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Just for what it's worth, PK is not the VP of Engineering. He is the VP of Consumer Products, ie ICON. That's me in the video. Many of you know me. I will take some time tomorrow to address your questions. Thanks for all the support!




Stuart - we really appreciate your contribution to the Forum. 

I've built up a collection of about a dozen Surefires over the years, but like many others on CPF got bored with your lines recently (particularly the lack of updates in lines like the U2). Some of the new lights look fantastic -- hoping in a big way they get released and I can start adding to the collection again.


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## calipsoii (Jan 23, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Just for what it's worth, PK is not the VP of Engineering. He is the VP of Consumer Products, ie ICON. That's me in the video. Many of you know me. I will take some time tomorrow to address your questions. Thanks for all the support!



!!

Please do follow up with us - I'd personally love to hear what you have to say and I'm sure a lot of other people would as well. :twothumbs


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## af112566 (Jan 23, 2012)

cant wait for some of these!!!


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 23, 2012)

> Stuart - we really appreciate your contribution to the Forum.



I bookmarked your NRA SHOT Show interview with Ginny Simone earlier in the thread, it was great.

As you can see, we are all chomping at the bit for the new SF product releases (and are already complaining about the design and features).


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## jh333233 (Jan 24, 2012)

funder said:


> The surface area of XML is four times of XR-E/XP-E. LX2U has twice luminous flux but same intensity of LX2, this indicates the emitter area of LX2U is twice of LX2. So the emitters of LX2/LX2U should be XP-E/XP-G or XP-G/XML.


Oops, ive made a mistake again,
250lm shouldnt be XR-E, too hard for it
But ive pointed some evidence before saying that LX2U cannot be XP-G, please refer to previous reply


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## jh333233 (Jan 24, 2012)

FPSRelic said:


> From reading the previosly linked Surefire catalog, the UNR Commander and the UNR Invictus use TIR, and the R1/R2 lawman and UDR Dominator use reflectors.


This is the UNR
http://postimage.org/image/um84l1y8x/
It looks like reflector:duh2:


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## jh333233 (Jan 24, 2012)

Someone said even Surefire is coming for output too, like other flashlight maker
Let say, theyve already got reliability(bomb proof), good UI(multiple stage tailcap), its time for them to go output
Competition leads to evolution and sucession


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## FPSRelic (Jan 24, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> This is the UNR
> http://postimage.org/image/um84l1y8x/
> It looks like reflector:duh2:



For me, its hard to tell unless I see it close up myself. Regardless, the borchure lists it as having tir

http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/graphics/pagebuilder/pdfs/2012_SureFire_catalog_med_res.pdf


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## BIGLOU (Jan 24, 2012)

That is a Luminox Watch swiss traser by mb-microtec inc. They should print "Surefire" on the face instead of putting "traser" though. Dang it says $780 MSRP.


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## jh333233 (Jan 24, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Just for what it's worth, PK is not the VP of Engineering. He is the VP of Consumer Products, ie ICON. That's me in the video. Many of you know me. I will take some time tomorrow to address your questions. Thanks for all the support!


Hi, there
The second-last light should be UNR right?
It looked like a reflector-light:duh2:


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## pjandyho (Jan 24, 2012)

BIGLOU said:


> That is a Luminox Watch swiss traser by mb-microtec inc. They should print "Surefire" on the face instead of putting "traser" though. Dang it says $780 MSRP.


Wow! $780!?? Anyway I sort of suspected that. Kind of a cool gadget though. Would want one if I can afford it.


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## iapyx (Jan 24, 2012)

You know, I don't want a new light. I have a UB3T. I have 800 lumens if I need them. No need for a new light. Not really necessary. I don't really want a new light. I can look at those new Surefires without thinking I even want another one. 

hehe.... that's what I thought.

hmmm, it would be nice to replace that LX2 with an LX2U. That way I will EDC a max of 500 lumens instead of 200 lumens. 
Darn, that UB3T produces a lot of light, but it's not really EDC-able. And I thought it would take some time before I got the bug, but see I here I am... thinking of selling my U2A and perhaps my LX2 and start putting money aside for a new LX2U. 

It's just the way things go.... It will never stop.


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## Flashlight Dave (Jan 24, 2012)

Stuart, when will we be able to buy these lights?


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## jh333233 (Jan 24, 2012)

Lol DM's editing was funny
25 years ago at ______
Because i can :devil: too... lol
-------------------------------
Im thinking of getting an old LX2 rather than the new one,
The appearance seemed to be worse for the new one......
I took a long time to get use to M3LT and UB3T.........


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## brianna (Jan 24, 2012)

Now that Surefire has the lumen numbers up. (200 lumen's single cell) (500 lumen's for 2 cell) I would really like to see the emphasis placed on longer run times. I borrowed a 500 lumen light and caught a dog knocking over my garbage can in the middle of the night. It was so bright it was hard to see anything. I was squinting at the 500 lumen sun beam. The woods at night, don't get any darker but it sure would be nice to see the run times extended.


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## funder (Jan 24, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> Oops, ive made a mistake again,
> 250lm shouldnt be XR-E, too hard for it
> But ive pointed some evidence before saying that LX2U cannot be XP-G, please refer to previous reply



Yes it is very difficult to make a 500lm light with XP-G. However, it is even more difficult to make a light with about 23mm diameter optics and XML and it has 13,000 cd throw.


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## jh333233 (Jan 24, 2012)

funder said:


> Yes it is very difficult to make a 500lm light with XP-G. However, it is even more difficult to make a light with about 23mm diameter optics and XML and it has 13,000 cd throw.


Why not?
Even a D26 could achieve 20-30k by reflector and 40k by aspheric
As long as the TIR is re-designed and the parabolic reflection plane reflect most of the light ray towards forward


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## funder (Jan 24, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> Why not?
> Even a D26 could achieve 20-30k by reflector and 40k by aspheric
> As long as the TIR is re-designed and the parabolic reflection plane reflect most of the light ray towards forward



The theoretic limit of throw = Luminance of the emitter x projection area of the optics x refractive coefficient.


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## jh333233 (Jan 24, 2012)

The curved area of TIR might be small but it could still do the job, depends on how the curve was designed
What makes you think a 500lm light would use XP-G?
R5 bin is [email protected]
S2 bin is [email protected], but S2 bin doesnt seem to be widely available, only a few mass-produced light uses it
and LX2U is rated @ 500lm


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## Z-Tab (Jan 24, 2012)

Surefire stated that they have proprietary LEDs. They're clearly using something a bit different in the LX2U (which they say is yellow-green). I'd love to hear from them what they're using and if it's based off of a known LED line.


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## funder (Jan 24, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> The curved area of TIR might be small but it could still do the job, depends on how the curve was designed
> What makes you think a 500lm light would use XP-G?
> R5 bin is [email protected]
> S2 bin is [email protected], but S2 bin doesnt seem to be widely available, only a few mass-produced light uses it
> and LX2U is rated @ 500lm



Firstly, no matter how the optics is designed, it can not go beyond theoretical limit. 
The surface brightness (luminance) of a 500lm XML is 500/pi /(2e-3)^2 ~ 4e7 nits
The refractive index is first optics is about 1.5
Thus the theoretic limit throw of any 23mm optics (including reflector, with 500lm XML) is:
4e7 x pi x (1.15e-2)^2 / (1.5)^2 ~ 7400 cd


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## funder (Jan 24, 2012)

Secondly, is it possible to make 500lm light with XP-G? It is tough but possible.
Currently the best available (although very limited) XP-G Bin is S3, which is ~ 524-564lm @ 1.5A. Manufacturer like Surefire has a close relationship with Cree and other LED supplier, so they can get the very premium Bin before us. Lets remind 4sevens released S3 lights much earlier before the S3 bin is listed in the Cree official documents. 

And the LX2U will not available very soon, so surefire can wait for the availability of better LEDs (or they can edit their claims in the catalog ).

Thirdly, Surefire give some hints in the catalog. They mentioned L2X ultra and X300 Ultra has some specially selected LED which has yellowish green tints. This fits what we saw in current very premium Bin Cree LEDs. We know P2X fury is powered by XML, it is 500lm and 9400cd. In 2012 catalog Surefire has revealed some similar-sized lights: UM2, ZM2 and DM2. These three has a larger bezel than LX2 ultra (37mm vs 29mm). If LX2 ultra use same LEDs (XML), then UM2, ZM2 and DM2 should outthrow LX2U because they have larger TIR lens. However, UM2, ZM2 and DM2 only have 9700cds. This indicates LX2U utilize some different LED which has a higher luminance when giving 500lm luminous flux.


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## Tommygun45 (Jan 24, 2012)

Right on schedule...

Got an email today alerting to a whole bunch of price drops across the Surefire line. G2X back to its old price. E2DL back to where it was, X300 drop, Fury down to 108, Defender under 100. I like to think that this means that these lights are having their successors come sooner than later. The new E2DL, the x400, then the Z2x or whatever it is to be the step up from the Fury. This is a good sign.


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## cland72 (Jan 24, 2012)

Tommygun45 said:


> Right on schedule...
> 
> Got an email today alerting to a whole bunch of price drops across the Surefire line. G2X back to its old price. E2DL back to where it was, X300 drop, Fury down to 108, Defender under 100. I like to think that this means that these lights are having their successors come sooner than later. The new E2DL, the x400, then the Z2x or whatever it is to be the step up from the Fury. This is a good sign.



Who did you get the email from?


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## Tommygun45 (Jan 24, 2012)

Actually just about everything has dropped. Prices back to where they were before they tacked 20 years of inflation on in one day. That was one hellish April. I suppose I can understand this move from an economic standpoint. Makes sense.

Have a substantial raise in prices for a current line of products. Set the level here so the consumer becomes accustomed to it. Return lights to previous price levels and insert new upgraded lights at previous price points. Now the old ones feel like a stael but the new ones seem reasonably priced. Nice.

Ill PM you, not sure if I can post it on here but its not like people won't figure it out sooner than later. Hint:Its based in California. The southern half.


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## Mr Bigglow (Jan 24, 2012)

Personal thanks to StuGatz for posting the video links; since my short sighted employer doesn't want us workaday gremlins to have access to FB, those were particularly nice. Seeing an actual Isis was like seeing a dragon or a unicorn but I was particularly interested in the wrist light (due to an echo in the audio, I didn't manage to catch the model name)- however on reflection I have to say those won't be so great in colder climates where long sleeves, jackets, and/or parkas are the rule rather than the exception. Always glad to do a product testing to prove myself wrong however!


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## Flashlight Dave (Jan 24, 2012)

I think the first sign of new product was when they discontinued their incan line. They informed us of rechargeables that were coming out as well. Also, when they discontinued the L1 my first thought was that the LX1 would possibly come out in 2012. 

I think we will see many of these lights sometime this year.


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## TheExpert (Jan 24, 2012)

*Re: Surefire New Products 2012*

anyone know when that wrist light is said to come out?


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## Viper715 (Jan 25, 2012)

Look at several replies above and don't get your hopes up. Surefire's track record on delivering concept lights there first year out isn't good. But for that I can wait.


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## jh333233 (Jan 25, 2012)

Tommygun45 said:


> Right on schedule...
> 
> Got an email today alerting to a whole bunch of price drops across the Surefire line. G2X back to its old price. E2DL back to where it was, X300 drop, Fury down to 108, Defender under 100. I like to think that this means that these lights are having their successors come sooner than later. The new E2DL, the x400, then the Z2x or whatever it is to be the step up from the Fury. This is a good sign.


Great, im tearing my red pocket for $:devil:


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## brianna (Jan 25, 2012)

Does Surefire have a actual date for release if they really are going to produce these new lights?


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## iapyx (Jan 25, 2012)

brianna said:


> Does Surefire have a actual date for release if they really are going to produce these new lights?





TheExpert said:


> anyone know when that wrist light is said to come out?





Viper715 said:


> Look at several replies above and don't get your hopes up. Surefire's track record on delivering concept lights there first year out isn't good. But for that I can wait.


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## sindekhan (Jan 25, 2012)

Oh well. I WAS interested in the Lawman, I saw the advt. a while ago on LAPG but after seeing the video at Shot Show it's fairly larger than I thought. Surefire doesn't seem to make anything really compact with high output. I've had a Surefire G2 and a Surefire M3 Combat Light both U.S. Army Issued. The G2 still sells for 60$ and the M3 goes for 275$. The G2 is so weak I'm not sure why anyone would buy one now. The M3 was obviously worlds better but for 275$? You can get tac lights that are brighter, more compact and cost less than 1/4th with par construction quality of a Surefire product. I just don't even understand how Surefire is still in business, I can't see how the cost is justified. If I saw a product that had specific key design features, high output in a compact package and construction quality a cut above the rest, I'd invest the money for it. I just don't see it.


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## jh333233 (Jan 25, 2012)

What you pay for is not limited to the light itself, but the warranty too, which would be expensive to support
After the first payment, they guarantee your light is usable for rest of your life, no question asked in most case
Like lens cracked, tailcap failure etc, they wont bother you but just ask for an address so that they could send you parts


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## FPSRelic (Jan 25, 2012)

sindekhan said:


> Oh well. I WAS interested in the Lawman, I saw the advt. a while ago on LAPG but after seeing the video at Shot Show it's fairly larger than I thought. Surefire doesn't seem to make anything really compact with high output. I've had a Surefire G2 and a Surefire M3 Combat Light both U.S. Army Issued. The G2 still sells for 60$ and the M3 goes for 275$. The G2 is so weak I'm not sure why anyone would buy one now. The M3 was obviously worlds better but for 275$? You can get tac lights that are brighter, more compact and cost less than 1/4th with par construction quality of a Surefire product. I just don't even understand how Surefire is still in business, I can't see how the cost is justified. If I saw a product that had specific key design features, high output in a compact package and construction quality a cut above the rest, I'd invest the money for it. I just don't see it.



The G2 and M3 are older lights from Surefire. The M3 has actually been discontinued. If you wanted to look at more modern lights from Surefire to compare to others, take a look at he G2X Tactical (200 lumens of light) or the Fury (500 lumens) instead of the G2 (65 lumens). The closest replacement to the M3 is the M3LT, which puts out 800 lumens of light. You would have to double the price of the old M3 to get that one though.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 25, 2012)

> The closest replacement to the M3 is the M3LT, which puts out 800 lumens of light. You would have to double the price of the old M3 to get that one though.



Well, actually one major online authorized SF dealer has the M3LT for about the same price as quoted above for the M3.


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## FPSRelic (Jan 25, 2012)

Really? Well there you go then


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 25, 2012)

Check out 'Good Deals' in the CPF Marketplace when it comes back up and say hi to my Ozmate forum mentor Norm.


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## Viking (Jan 25, 2012)

sindekhan said:


> You can get tac lights that are brighter, more compact and cost less than 1/4th with par construction quality of a Surefire product. I just don't even understand how Surefire is still in business, I can't see how the cost is justified. If I saw a product that had specific key design features, high output in a compact package and construction quality a cut above the rest, I'd invest the money for it. I just don't see it.




Collecters/flashaholics very often don't see it ( many of the CPF members belong in this catagori I belive ).

But most people who use ther light every day at work under rough conditions does.
For them a flashlight is just another tool , and it *has* to be reliable.

I am one those people.
For the past 9 years I have used a flashligt every day and night at work.
I use it a lot , about 50 times during a working day/night shift.
I constantly turn the switch on and off. Take it up of my pocket , back into my pocket , over and over again. I sometimes accidently sit on it , drops it and so forth.
I use it in all kind of weather. 

The first 6 and a half years , I spend a fortune on different flashlights. The ”good” lights worked flawlessly a couple of months. The worsts , only days or weeks. 
Almost all my lights was cheap ”nonames” ( propably chineese ). 
But I has also tried out severel Led Lensers and MagLites.
Along to my own experience , I also have my colleges experiences to learn from.

2 and a half years ago someone recomended me a surefire light. I had never heard about the brand before. ( I thought MagLite was the very best in flashlights.)

Since then , I have never had a single issue. This is by far a new record for me. I'm actually beginning to belive the Surefire light will be my cheapest flashlight in the long run.

I think collecters have a lot of knowledge we can all learn from:
Different Led's , UI's , models , beams , batteries , safty issues etc.

But when it comes to reliability , I don't belive them much.
Many , if not most , don't use a flashlight many times during a working day under realistic circumstances.
And if they do , They propably rotate there many lights , or frequently upgrade to a newer model.
Which means the flashlights will be in little actual use.

quality can not easily be seen to the naked eye.
There is more to it than thick and heavy metal. 

All the electronics hiden inside 
for example.


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## enomosiki (Jan 26, 2012)

FPSRelic said:


> Quoted From about 0:43 onwards in the video:
> 
> "It's a larger optic, to accomodate a higher output level, (it will) better disperse the higher amount of lumens that's coming from this light. (It will) give you better flood, as well as great projection"
> 
> I'm interpreting this as him saying that it will have a floodier beam than the e1b, with at least the same amount of throw.



The catalog states that EB1 produces 10,000cd. At 1 meter, it translates into _*10,000 lux.

*_The hot spot on that little sucker is going to be _INTENSE_.

I'm already leaning more towards getting the EB1 with two-stage tactical switch instead of LX2 Ultra. I'm in the market for a nice little 1xCR123A thrower to complement my TN11, so EB1 will be perfect for me.


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## Federal LG (Jan 26, 2012)

Man... Yesterday while I was working I caught myself thinking about this new EB1.

200 SF lumens coming from that little light will be awesome!! I can´t wait to see it! 

Is there any release dates yet? :naughty:


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## brianna (Jan 26, 2012)

I called Surefire yesterday. I was told no release dates have been set for any products in the 2012 catalogue.


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## jh333233 (Jan 26, 2012)

brianna said:


> I called Surefire yesterday. I was told no release dates have been set for any products in the 2012 catalogue.


That was an expected answer
Coming up on shotshow doesnt mean coming up on being sold


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## enomosiki (Jan 26, 2012)

Federal LG said:


> Man... Yesterday while I was working I caught myself thinking about this new EB1.
> 
> 200 SF lumens coming from that little light will be awesome!! I can´t wait to see it!
> 
> Is there any release dates yet? :naughty:



According to tacticalleds.com, EB1 is due out in Spring. The site previously mentioned May. They are taking pre-orders for $154 for both the clicky and two-stage LOTC versions.

Plenty of time for me to save up.


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## jh333233 (Jan 26, 2012)

enomosiki said:


> According to tacticalleds.com, EB1 is due out in Spring. The site previously mentioned May. They are taking pre-orders for $154 for both the clicky and two-stage LOTC versions.
> 
> Plenty of time for me to save up.


$154, Thats an acceptable deal, even E1B is selling for $160
How much discount were offered for $154?
nvm, ive found it
Despite its bad appearence, i may grab one of it, depends on the price of LX2 and LX2U, imma look forward to it
As enjoying it earlier equals to paying more

Wow they are offering good deals, P2X for about a hundred dollars


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## JNewell (Jan 26, 2012)

Is anything known about the programming feature in some of the new lights, beyond what the catalog says? It reads as if all that can be done is to tweak/adjust the brightness levels. That might be nice if, for example, you wanted a lower lowest setting on the new UM2, but that seems like that's about all it would accomplish?


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## jh333233 (Jan 26, 2012)

Seems Surefire is going from simplicity to versatlity(or disturbing)


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 26, 2012)

> Interesting that the programmable lights seem to optically couple to the USB programming dongle. Wonder if they use the emitter as a receiver or is there an IR diode somewhere in the head? Even the new LX2 is listed as programmable.





> Is anything known about the programming feature in some of the new lights, beyond what the catalog says?



Don't know much more but looking at page 12 of the 2012 SF catalog, it appears that the programming is indeed done optically using the emitter LED as the receiver, it is listed as a first in 'Some SureFire Milestones'. Also, there is a diagram of selectable programs for the R1/R2 Lawman on page 34.


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## calipsoii (Jan 26, 2012)

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Don't know much more but looking at page 12 of the 2012 SF catalog, it appears that the programming is indeed done optically using the emitter LED as the receiver, it is listed as a first in 'Some SureFire Milestones'. Also, there is a diagram of selectable programs for the R1/R2 Lawman on page 34.



That's pretty wild, if you think about it. To be honest, I'd probably still prefer using the tailcap switch to do the programming (ala HDS Clicky) but I can definitely see some situations where programming it via USB dongle makes sense.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 27, 2012)

> That's pretty wild, if you think about it. To be honest, I'd probably still prefer using the tailcap switch to do the programming (ala HDS Clicky) but I can definitely see some situations where programming it via USB dongle makes sense.



And, it does look like the R1/R2 can switch programs by holding both buttons for six seconds. It also appears that the USB dongle will allow strobe to be added to these button programs from what I read in the catalog.

Some speculation and questions about the latest SF product news as reported on this thread.

About six months ago I wrote here on CPF:



> You'll die of old age waiting for Surefire to come out with current technology LED emitters.:huh:



http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...LED-Question&p=3691413&viewfull=1#post3691413

Has there has really been a sea change at SF since then? Or are these just more cruel catalog dreams like in years past?

Is PK still doing the mainstream SF light design? Or is he exiled to Consumer Products and the mass market Icon while a new generation of techies with eleven computer programmable modes and a four function tailcap takes over? It seems that he no longer speaks for himself here on CPF and his good friend Al has implied that some of our dialog makes him no longer feel welcome. Will Stuart really come back to respond on this thread on behalf of SF?

And, are the recent price drops on some models just an inventory clearance or a sign that SF is going to aggressively compete for the non-military dollar? A SF Fury or an Invictus at the recent dropped prices is still sold at a premium compared to Chinese lights but very competitive in my view. Will the new models have a similar high retail with a deep discount?


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## Glock 22 (Jan 27, 2012)

Thanks *enomosik* for the update I checked it out on tacticalleds.com wed site the EB1 for $154.00 that's not a bad deal. I have very high interest in this model and for that price I can't wait until spring.


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## Size15's (Jan 27, 2012)

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Is PK still doing the mainstream SF light design? Or is he exiled to Consumer Products and the mass market Icon while a new generation of techies with eleven computer programmable modes and a four function tailcap takes over? It seems that he no longer speaks for himself here on CPF and his good friend Al has implied that some of our dialog makes him no longer feel welcome. Will Stuart really come back to respond on this thread on behalf of SF?


PK has always dreamed of creating flashlights with style and flare that everyone can own and enjoy. He became SureFire's VP of Consumer Products a few years ago so he could realise his dreams under the ICON brand.

As one of SureFire's Vice Presidents he can contribute to SureFire's new products but the reality is that his work on the ICON brand takes the vast majority of his time and effort and he is often in China leading and managing the production of his ICON designs.

Stuart is one of SureFire's Product Managers with a busy [understatement] portfolio of new products to release. I know that Stuart intends to contribute to this thread on the topic of new products SureFire proposes for 2012. Worth considering that time spent on CPF is not spent on getting new products into production! :nana:

For years I've been doing all I can to help CPF members and others online gain a better understanding of SureFire products and company - it takes a lot of time. Stuart isn't SureFire's Social Media Engagement rep. Where I work we have people working full-time on this sort of thing!


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## I came to the light... (Jan 27, 2012)

What's with the new LX2's efficiency on low? The specs for the current model are 15 lumens for 47 hours, and the new model claims only 5 for 30 hours (the lx2 ultra claims 10 for 45 hours). I tested my current-model LX2 and it only gets 37 hours, but that's still much better than the new model's specs. The new model's low is actually rated at the same output and lower runtime than its 1-cell equivalent (EB1). I want to write it off as a typo, but that really throws the rest of the catalog into question...


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## Size15's (Jan 27, 2012)

I recommend that the most effective way of comparing the LX2 with a proposed LX2UT (two-stage) / LX2UC (clickie) is to prepare runtime/output charts for them both for a direct comparison.
Anything else is conjecture and the specs/ratings in a catalog may well change by the time a proposed new product actually gets released.


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## I came to the light... (Jan 27, 2012)

Size15's said:


> I recommend that the most effective way of comparing the LX2 with a proposed LX2UT (two-stage) / LU2UC (clickie) is to prepare runtime/output charts for them both for a direct comparison.
> Anything else is conjecture and the specs/ratings in a catalog may well change by the time a proposed new product actually gets released.



Thanks, and I agree completely. I'm just hoping for some semi-informed speculation while we wait for real data  (also, I'm comparing the LX2 not only to the ultra, but also to the revised 2012 LX2)

Also, I just noticed that the catalog implies that the 2011 LX2 has a 5 lumen low. So there are definitely typos.


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## Z-Tab (Jan 27, 2012)

It sounds like the circuitry in the head is much more complex (programmable through light flashes), so that might be the source of the loss in run-time on low. If a low mode is only 30mA, but there's an overhead of 10mA, you're going to lose a few hours of run-time. On high, with say a 750mA current, that 10mA overhead has substantially less impact on run-time.

Of course, it could just be that they are being conservative in their claims, so that we're not all outraged when the package says 44 hours instead of 45.


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## iapyx (Jan 27, 2012)

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Don't know much more but looking at page 12 of the 2012 SF catalog, it appears that the programming is indeed done optically using the emitter LED as the receiver, it is listed as a first in 'Some SureFire Milestones'. Also, there is a diagram of selectable programs for the R1/R2 Lawman on page 34.



Would be nice if the current UB3T too has the built-in option to program the light. 
I'd move the strobe to the front and move the OFF position to the 3rd position: 
1. SOS
2. Strobe
3. Off
4. level 1 (2 lumens)
5. level 2 (8 lumens)
6. level 3 (15 lumens)
7. level 4 (30 lumens)
8. level 5 (80 lumens)
9. level 6 (160 lumens)
10 level 7 (325 lumens)
11 level 8 (800 lumens)

But I doubt if very much if this will be possible at all.


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## I came to the light... (Jan 27, 2012)

Z-Tab said:


> It sounds like the circuitry in the head is much more complex (programmable through light flashes), so that might be the source of the loss in run-time on low. If a low mode is only 30mA, but there's an overhead of 10mA, you're going to lose a few hours of run-time. On high, with say a 750mA current, that 10mA overhead has substantially less impact on run-time.
> 
> Of course, it could just be that they are being conservative in their claims, so that we're not all outraged when the package says 44 hours instead of 45.



Oh wow, I didn't catch that symbol. That just may explain it, especially since it likely means low now uses PWM. Thank you.


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## Flashlight Dave (Jan 27, 2012)

I came to the light... said:


> Oh wow, I didn't catch that symbol. That just may explain it, especially since it likely means low now uses PWM. Thank you.



PWM!! Oh god don't say that! Lets hope Surefire doesn't stoop to that level.


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## I came to the light... (Jan 27, 2012)

Flashlight Dave said:


> PWM!! Oh god don't say that! Lets hope Surefire doesn't stoop to that level.



Well, I can't say anything for sure. But the only approaches I've seen to "infinitely" variable output are PWM, PFM, and a potentiometer (which isn't applicable because these lights are reconfigured digitally). And can't the programmable lights be set to any output level?

Of course, SureFire has innovated new solutions in the past. And they could also make you choose from presets instead of allowing "infinite" flexibility. But the specs seem to indicate otherwise (I emailed SureFire, and they repeated the catalog specs. But I'm not sure they put much thought into that particular response...).

As Size15s indicated, it's all speculation at this point.


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## Tommygun45 (Jan 27, 2012)

Could it be because of the XML that is presumably being used? The Quark line's efficiency on low modes was halved as a result. The 30 day run time on the lowest lumen setting was halved to 15 days for their line of lights with the XML emitter. They put out more lumens on high and are more efficient there but on low I dont think they run as efficiently. Just a thought.



I came to the light... said:


> What's with the new LX2's efficiency on low? The specs for the current model are 15 lumens for 47 hours, and the new model claims only 5 for 30 hours (the lx2 ultra claims 10 for 45 hours). I tested my current-model LX2 and it only gets 37 hours, but that's still much better than the new model's specs. The new model's low is actually rated at the same output and lower runtime than its 1-cell equivalent (EB1). I want to write it off as a typo, but that really throws the rest of the catalog into question...


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## calipsoii (Jan 27, 2012)

Flashlight Dave said:


> PWM!! Oh god don't say that! Lets hope Surefire doesn't stoop to that level.



I probably sound like CPF's broken record at this point, but PWM is _not inherently evil_. 

Evil is when a manufacturer says "oh hey, let's make it 60hz because that's what my TV runs at and I totally can't see flickering and it'll save a ton of power overhead because our circuit will be switching way less often".

Not evil is when a manufacturer says "You know, let's make it 4khz and take the runtime loss in exchange for unnoticeable flickering and absolutely no tint-shifting in comparison to constant current".

Surefire hasn't ever seemed to care about tint until their recent release of the Saint Minimus Vision (which I personally believe is an experiment to see how the market reacts, much like the E2L-AA). So with that said, I doubt very much that they care whether their lights tint-shift at low output, and will probably go with constant current as a result.

Even if they do use PWM though, so long as they use a HIGH FREQUENCY, we'll be just fine.


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## Lucciola (Jan 28, 2012)

At first I got exited about the EB1. But then I heard that the head will be larger which I am not very happy about.

I EDC the E1B in my right front pocket and what I like about it is its sleak shape and the good throw compared to the size of the head. With a larger head it will become less pocketable which I think is one of the main points of this light. This and the throw.

200 Lumens is fine with me, very welcome. But at which runtime? And if the head becomes larger I am not sure whether it will be such a great EDC light.

Let's wait whether it will ever become real. I remember getting excited about the LX1 Lumamax which never made it to production. So I cancel all my excitement about these wonderful illumination marvels saving it up for the time when the products are actually availlable.

After the LX1 excitement I really got fed up with the Surefire teasing-policy. I admire their lights but a product is only great if it becomes a product. Until then it's just hollow words, a flash in the nevada desert pan.


----------



## KROMATICS (Jan 28, 2012)

Has the KROMA MILSPEC been redesigned? It's brighter now of course but the picture in the catalog shows 8 LEDs of each color illuminated instead of 4. Not sure how they could fit that many LEDs in there. Maybe it's just artistic license and not reality?


----------



## Federal LG (Jan 28, 2012)

I can´t believe there wasn´t any CPFer in Surefire booth to bring us a lot of EB1 pictures!!


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## Federal LG (Jan 28, 2012)

Lucciola said:


> At first I got exited about the EB1. But then I heard that the head will be larger which I am not very happy about.
> 
> I EDC the E1B in my right front pocket and what I like about it is its sleak shape and the good throw compared to the size of the head. With a larger head it will become less pocketable which I think is one of the main points of this light. This and the throw.
> 
> ...



I think it´s a larger LED, not larger head...

Head looks longer, but not larger. New LED it´s because the new powerful output.


----------



## rocled (Jan 28, 2012)

The new EB1 will be 1.1" in diameter, 4.4" long and 3.2oz 1.3 hours runtime on high and the best part: suppose to accomodate Surefire's new rechargable batteries!!

Edit: this info taken from Surefire's new 2012 PDF catalog.


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## pjandyho (Jan 29, 2012)

rocled said:


> The new EB1 will be 1.1" in diameter, 4.4" long and 3.2oz 1.3 hours runtime on high and the best part: suppose to accomodate Surefire's new rechargable batteries!!
> 
> Edit: this info taken from Surefire's new 2012 PDF catalog.


Which page and part in the catalog did you see it mention about EB1 taking Surefire's new rechargeables? I am looking high and low for that info but no luck.


----------



## Z-Tab (Jan 29, 2012)

It's on the page 23 where they describe One-Battery lights.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 29, 2012)

> Which page and part in the catalog did you see it mention about EB1 taking Surefire's new rechargeables? I am looking high and low for that info but no luck.



Page 23 of the catalog in the paragraph about 'Ultra-Compact Flashlights'. Has a picture of the EB1 next to the text.


----------



## pjandyho (Jan 29, 2012)

Z-Tab said:


> It's on the page 23 where they describe One-Battery lights.





Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Page 23 of the catalog in the paragraph about 'Ultra-Compact Flashlights'. Has a picture of the EB1 next to the text.


Woot! Woot! That is good news! Finally able to run a rechargeable in there. Thanks guys, I missed that info.


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## Tommygun45 (Jan 29, 2012)

Thank god. I am sure they could have figured out a way to tweak the E2DL head and stick it on the E1b body. If they needed more voltage, we are all for it. Let us run an RCR in an E1b for the love of God. People have been making E1bl's for a while now. About time they caught up.


----------



## Size15's (Jan 29, 2012)

Careful with your expectations given SureFire is proposing their own label rechargeable battery


----------



## pulstar (Jan 29, 2012)

I am really impressed with the lights they showed this Shot Show and suprised by the recent discounts of almost the whole Surefire line. What they're up to? For example, my long wanted M3LT goes around 280$ at some vendors, which means i won't just dream about it anymore, with that kind of price i can (almost) afford it! 
If they come out with just a half of the light they presented, this's gonna really good year for us flashaholics (and quite bad for our wallets)


----------



## jh333233 (Jan 29, 2012)

Another guess again: SF uses LiFePO4
Reasons:
-Reliability
-Stability, no explosion
-Allows delivery of large current
-Can withstand deeper over discharge than LiCoO2(?)
-Similar voltage with Cr123a(important for duel fuel lights)


----------



## pjandyho (Jan 29, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> Another guess again: SF uses LiFePO4
> Reasons:
> -Reliability
> -Stability, no explosion
> ...


SF mentioned that they are using proprietary Lithium Ion batteries. AFAIK the only light that is using Lithium Phosphate is the EB1.


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## nitehead (Jan 29, 2012)

pjandyho said:


> the only light that is using Lithium Phosphate is the EB1.



The lithium phosphates are not limited to the EB1, I think. Have a look at page 19 & 126 of the 2012 catalogue where they are mentioned generally


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## pjandyho (Jan 29, 2012)

nitehead said:


> The lithium phosphates are not limited to the EB1, I think. Have a look at page 19 & 126 of the 2012 catalogue where they are mentioned generally


Well, until Surefire come up with the new lights we probably won't know for sure because they also kept mentioning that they use lithium ion rechargeables. Whatever chemistry they use, I am happy as long as it is rechargeable.


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## Federal LG (Jan 29, 2012)

Me too.

And I expect pics... a lot of new pictures!


----------



## Federal LG (Jan 31, 2012)

I found one video, from Marshall (GG). You can see two EB1! One black and one silver colored. They look like a little bigger than E1B, but I still like them! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_SAR2Ve-JY

Unfortunately they don´t focus on the lights... hahaha!


----------



## Lodogg2221 (Jan 31, 2012)

EB1 is .4" longer and bezel is .1" larger in diameter...dont mind the small increase in bezel diameter, but the length already isnt far off of the LX2...now its even closer.

Really wanted to get the Fury and M3LT at the new lower prices, but holding off for the Lawman. 
They said in that video early March. 
Right around the corner! I cant wait, but my wife sure can...lol.


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## Flashlight Dave (Feb 1, 2012)

1.1" bezel means that surefire needs some new filters and diffuser. The old f04 won't fit.


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## KDOG3 (Feb 1, 2012)

Anyone know if the EB1 has a new driver or is it just really a new led? I would love to find out that it has a low starting voltage like .8v or better to run off a single AA. Just a dream though.


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## Tommygun45 (Feb 1, 2012)

How about the Invictus dropping to *$385*. That's quite the reduction. We must assume that something is going to fill that 5-600 price point right? Also, if they are still selling the Invictus and these new lights which I presume have the same 2.5" diameter head any chance they will resume production of the FM-24? How useful is that diffuser for these TIR lights? Keep making them! 

Also I used to run my 6PX pro off a AW17670 without issue. Surely the new lights should be able to handle li-ions I hope.

Hey look, my 300th post. Ahh this hobby takes alot of my time. But it sure is fun!


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## pulstar (Feb 1, 2012)

Yes, and M3LT for 277$! Almost a bargain! Well, 17670 with 3.7V rated voltage really shouldn't be a problem for a light, made for 2xCR123 batteries If the starting prices were like they're now, i'd surely already own at least M3LT...


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## Lodogg2221 (Feb 1, 2012)

Tommygun, where do you see the reduction in output to 385 on the Invictus? Catalog shows 800...what am I missing

Nevermind...you are talking price...duh!


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## KROMATICS (Feb 1, 2012)

Tommygun45 said:


> How about the Invictus dropping to *$385*. That's quite the reduction. We must assume that something is going to fill that 5-600 price point right?



I imagine the UBR Invictus (rechargable) will fill the UB3T Invictus' original price point. Those price drops are a bitter pill to swallow for those of us who bought one recently. Ouch.


----------



## 276 (Feb 1, 2012)

KROMATICS said:


> I imagine the UBR Invictus (rechargable) will fill the UB3T Invictus' original price point. Those price drops are a bitter pill to swallow for those of us who bought one recently. Ouch.



I know how you feel i got the UB3T in DEC.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Feb 1, 2012)

KROMATICS said:


> I imagine the UBR Invictus (rechargable) will fill the UB3T Invictus' original price point. Those price drops are a bitter pill to swallow for those of us who bought one recently.Ouch.





276 said:


> I know how you feel i got the UB3T in DEC.



I share your pain. I was thinking about buying another UB3T at the new price so I could cut my losses.

I'll observe that every year when we complain about the SF price increases, the thread always gets closed. Now that we are complaining about a SF price cut, our discussion is allowed to run unfettered.:thumbsup:


----------



## kyhunter1 (Feb 1, 2012)

Bring on the Surefire price cuts.  Long overdue! I understand how you all feel, I paid $149 for a new Fury just a day before the drop to $108. I really like the light and not complaining about it anyhow.


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## Robert_M (Feb 1, 2012)

You guys act like we could have waited a month or two before buying a Fury or other SF product. We're FLASHAHOLICS!!!! We have a serious addiction!!! I don't care if I paid more than the people who waited so long!!! I've been able to use my Fury for a much longer time then those people who are just buying one now!!!


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## KDOG3 (Feb 3, 2012)

Hmmm... since he runtime is the same on high Im going to venture to say that its the same driver just a different led. Now just to find out when its going to be available.


----------



## iapyx (Feb 3, 2012)

Well guys if you like you can still get the good old U2 for only 299 USD


----------



## JNewell (Feb 3, 2012)

...and a darned good light it still is!



iapyx said:


> Well guys if you like you can still the good old U2 for only 299 USD


----------



## Entrope (Feb 3, 2012)

_(Post Removed)_


----------



## jh333233 (Feb 4, 2012)

pjandyho said:


> Well, until Surefire come up with the new lights we probably won't know for sure because they also kept mentioning that they use lithium ion rechargeables. Whatever chemistry they use, I am happy as long as it is rechargeable.


You can expect their cell to be pricey, maybe even more expensive than AWs


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## pjandyho (Feb 4, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> You can expect their cell to be pricey, maybe even more expensive than AWs


Definitely so. No doubts about that. I just hope that the optional CR123 holder that comes with some of the models are capable of taking AW cells. Just not sure what voltage are the lights made to take.


----------



## Loomy (Feb 4, 2012)

iapyx said:


> Well guys if you like you can still get the good old U2 for only 299 USD



OT but they are more like $100 on ebay, which is pretty fair for such a good 100 lumen light. surefire quality, warranty, run time, selectable brightness, clicky switch, and if it is the right age, sized to fit 18650 and operate perfectly. 500 lumens sounds sexy, but I still get hot for my u2


----------



## tab665 (Feb 4, 2012)

these lower prices are driving me insane. the only thing keeping me from blowing hundreds of dollars is the hope some new lights must be around the corner. the M3LT is looking awefully attractive at its new price.


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## chris975d (Feb 4, 2012)

tab665 said:


> these lower prices are driving me insane. the only thing keeping me from blowing hundreds of dollars is the hope some new lights must be around the corner. the M3LT is looking awefully attractive at its new price.



From what I understand of Surefire's new pricing (from talking to a friend who is a Surefire dealer) is that they've cut their MAP (minimum advertised price) that they allow retailers to sell for down to around 10%. It used to be a lot more. They (Surefire) haven't really lowered their wholesale cost, just asking their dealers to sell for less. Seems that Surefire is wanting to be way more aggressive (against the Chinese made competitors) in their pricing to gain marketshare in consumer sales.


----------



## JohnSmith (Feb 4, 2012)

chris975d said:


> From what I understand of Surefire's new pricing (from talking to a friend who is a Surefire dealer) is that they've cut their MAP (minimum advertised price) that they allow retailers to sell for down to around 10%. It used to be a lot more. They (Surefire) haven't really lowered their wholesale cost, just asking their dealers to sell for less. Seems that Surefire is wanting to be way more aggressive (against the Chinese made competitors) in their pricing to gain marketshare in consumer sales.



If that's so, then it was a smart move on their part. When I saw the UB3T Invictus was down to $385, I ordered one immediately. I didnt even think about it. With the price change, it went from "a light I'll never own" to "the light I MUST own, and right now."

I'll sell off some lights to offset the cost, and the UB3T will replace their functionality and then some. Total no-brainer for me.


----------



## chris975d (Feb 4, 2012)

JohnSmith said:


> If that's so, then it was a smart move on their part. When I saw the UB3T Invictus was down to $385, I ordered one immediately. I didnt even think about it. With the price change, it went from "a light I'll never own" to "the light I MUST own, and right now."
> 
> I'll sell off some lights to offset the cost, and the UB3T will replace their functionality and then some. Total no-brainer for me.



I agree. A lot of people may have seen or have knowledge of Surefire's products, but with their traditional pricing, may have also thought that they couldn't afford one. With the sudden drop in retail prices, a lot of these previously "out of my price range" lights now are seemingly 30-40% off old pricing. I think their plan is to drop the selling prices, gain more general consumer sales (and hopefully long term loyal customers), then slowly creep prices back up, either on existing products, or as they introduce new products. Of course, if you're a Surefire dealer, you're kinda getting the short end of this, as they haven't dropped their cost to the dealers. As a dealer, you're now making less per sale, but (hopefully), more sales volume.


----------



## schurtjl (Feb 4, 2012)

JohnSmith said:


> If that's so, then it was a smart move on their part. When I saw the UB3T Invictus was down to $385, I ordered one immediately. I didnt even think about it. With the price change, it went from "a light I'll never own" to "the light I MUST own, and right now."
> 
> I'll sell off some lights to offset the cost, and the UB3T will replace their functionality and then some. Total no-brainer for me.



Exactly. I already own many surefire lights, with the most expensive ones being the LX2's, Scouts, etc, but have held off on the M6LT, UB3T, etc because as much as I wanted them, that was getting to a price point I was having a harder time with. The day the price went from $575 to $294 and minus another 5% at LAPG, which meant the M6LT cost me $279, that was an absolute no-brainer and I purchased it immediately. And now I'm trying to keep myself from doing the same with a UB3T. Problem is, don't know how much longer I can fight it


----------



## JohnSmith (Feb 4, 2012)

schurtjl said:


> Exactly. I already own many surefire lights, with the most expensive ones being the LX2's, Scouts, etc, but have held off on the M6LT, UB3T, etc because as much as I wanted them, that was getting to a price point I was having a harder time with. The day the price went from $575 to $294 and minus another 5% at LAPG, which meant the M6LT cost me $279, that was an absolute no-brainer and I purchased it immediately. And now I'm trying to keep myself from doing the same with a UB3T. Problem is, don't know how much longer I can fight it



Well, console yourself with the knowledge that the UB3T is probably backordered everywhere right now so there's no need to rush. I've got a few weeks to wait for mine, it seems. Although waiting did give me some time to track down an FM24 diffuser for my new Invictus!


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 7, 2012)

chris975d said:


> I agree. A lot of people may have seen or have knowledge of Surefire's products, but with their traditional pricing, may have also thought that they couldn't afford one. With the sudden drop in retail prices, a lot of these previously "out of my price range" lights now are seemingly 30-40% off old pricing. I think their plan is to drop the selling prices, gain more general consumer sales (and hopefully long term loyal customers), then slowly creep prices back up, either on existing products, or as they introduce new products. Of course, if you're a Surefire dealer, you're kinda getting the short end of this, as they haven't dropped their cost to the dealers. As a dealer, you're now making less per sale, but (hopefully), more sales volume.



I was kinda wondering how that was going to work out for dealers, especially those up here in Canada that are still trying to get the old price out of stock they had purchased a year ago. Was wondering if Surefire was going to help 'em out somehow if they marked a light such as the M3LT down, or the dealer can keep trying to sell it for 500+ bones. They could help out a dealer by giving him reduction on new stock ordered when he moves the old stock that he took less mark up on.

I might be able to swing $300 and go for a road trip to a post box in Montana, or more likely, they might just keep it. One things for sure, at the old price, they can sell it to someone else and best of luck.


----------



## chris975d (Feb 7, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I was kinda wondering how that was going to work out for dealers, especially those up here in Canada that are still trying to get the old price out of stock they had purchased a year ago. Was wondering if Surefire was going to help 'em out somehow if they marked a light such as the M3LT down, or the dealer can keep trying to sell it for 500+ bones. They could help out a dealer by giving him reduction on new stock ordered when he moves the old stock that he took less mark up on.
> 
> I might be able to swing $300 and go for a road trip to a post box in Montana, or more likely, they might just keep it. One things for sure, at the old price, they can sell it to someone else and best of luck.



As far as I understand, the dealers are still paying the same wholesale prices for Surefire lights as they did prior to the MSRP drop, it's just that now, the dealers' are making a much lower profit margin per unit. Somewhere around 10-15% I believe. The idea is that they (the dealers) will make up the lower margins with more volume. As a dealer you could always try to sell your lights for pre-drop prices, and hope your customers are just oblivious to the new lower MSRPs, but I doubt that'd be a sound business strategy.


----------



## flashy bazook (Feb 7, 2012)

chris975d said:


> I agree. A lot of people may have seen or have knowledge of Surefire's products, but with their traditional pricing, may have also thought that they couldn't afford one. With the sudden drop in retail prices, a lot of these previously "out of my price range" lights now are seemingly 30-40% off old pricing. I think their plan is to drop the selling prices, gain more general consumer sales (and hopefully long term loyal customers), then slowly creep prices back up, either on existing products, or as they introduce new products. Of course, if you're a Surefire dealer, you're kinda getting the short end of this, as they haven't dropped their cost to the dealers. As a dealer, you're now making less per sale, but (hopefully), more sales volume.



Great post!

People need to realize just how different the new products are from the old, gone is the compatibility and interchangeability that made the old products great.

If this succeeds in getting people hooked into the new line, and over time weakens the support for the old standards, prices can indeed rise up a lot.

As usual, it's up to us, the consumers, to decide how things will develop over time. As I posted earlier, I intend to continue supporting the old standard, which is good news for the custom makers who will continue to provide the spare parts that we need, together with the latest and greatest in LED technology. But if not enough people do it, then it's going to be bad news for a lot of good people and custom makers!

This does not mean that if you really really like a particular model you should not get it, far from it! Just that you should think about balancing your purchases. If you never buy books from bookstores, don't complain if they start disappearing from your neighborhood!


----------



## brianna (Feb 8, 2012)

*Surefire LX2 lumamax*

This light is being advertised as 500 lumen's of yellow green light. Surefire thinks this is a good thing. Am I the only one that feels sickley yellow green light makes them feel like they are in a science fiction movie like Alien?


----------



## FPSRelic (Feb 8, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*

I assume you're talking about the new yet-to-be-released LX2 Ultra? Since it hasn't actually been seen in the wild, it's hard to determine how yellow/green the tint will actually be. I would have to see it first before I judged


----------



## jh333233 (Feb 8, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*

Tint can be subjective, like taste
Cannot be described by words, you can only feel it by seeing it


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Feb 8, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*



brianna said:


> This light is being advertised as 500 lumen's of yellow green light. Surefire thinks this is a good thing. Am I the only one that feels sickley yellow green light makes them feel like they are in a science fiction movie like Alien?



I had a similar observation on another thread:



Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> ...Kinda looks like the ad copy is preparing you for the sickly yellow-green tint of a high power XM-L: 'This highly efficient light emitting diode produces a higher component of yellowish-green light to which the human eye is most sensitive.' It's an illumination tool so aesthetics don't count and it's a SF so the greenish tint is a feature, not a flaw. And, yes, I'll probably buy one or two to complain about.:devil:
> 
> I realize there have been complaints about the green tints of the high power XP-G's as well, e.g.:
> 
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?306074-XP-G-S2-green-tint-is-a-deal-breaker-Quark-AA2-T-alternatives



The SF advertising reminds me of the old urban legend about canned tuna being introduced to a market dominated by pink salmon. 'Guaranteed not to turn pink in the can!' the ad copy read. SF knows they will get complaints about the tint so they will claim it is intentionally yellow-green.:huh:

All of my XM-L lights have some yellow-green tint around the edge of the hotspot, the spill is somewhat purple in comparison. Also some lights have a very noticeable green shift at lower power. The first time I saw this I posted on the 47's forum. I said the light had a terrible tint and I was shocked. I sent the light back to David. Trevor sent the light back to me with a note saying the light was not defective. Trevor and I were both right about the light. XM-L's with the large die seem to have a lot of unsavory tint variation that some reflectors and optics mix into the beam better than others. The 47's Quark Turbo X has a deep smooth reflector which projects an image of the greenish edge of the phosphor when white wall hunting.


----------



## Brasso (Feb 8, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*

I have 2 Quarks with their "neutral" tints, and they are pretty good. The beam tint is very consistant. No shades of purple. It does tend ever so slightly to yellowish/green, but remains to my eyes more neutral, so I'm happy with it. 

My SC600 does have a more yellow/green hotspot with a purple spill, unless it's on turbo 750 lumen setting. I also have 2 thrunites. One warm and the other cool. Both have very consistant tints. I guess you really just have pick particular bins with the xml's.


----------



## jh333233 (Feb 8, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*

Some hypothesis and physics again:
LED with CCT above warm, will have very very less spectrum in red
While maxing in blue spectrum(450nm)
2nd peak @ 550nm(green)
and the brightness decrease if wavelength increase
so tint change is quite normal at dim light just because red has a very low amount, and become more obvious if lumen decrease


----------



## MrBenchmark (Feb 8, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*

It will be interesting to see how this looks, and more importantly, how well it works. In principle, your eyes are most sensitive to green light - a LOT more sensitive than to red, for instance. So while this may look terrible, it may actually be quite effective. (At least provided the color isn't so jacked up that you can't tell what anything is at a distance anyway...) That said, I don't much like green tinted lights either. Guess we'll see...


----------



## RedForest UK (Feb 8, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*

The problem is that as far as I know the sensitivity of our eyes to light is somehow already taken account of when they measure lumens (I could be wrong about this), at least to the extent that wavelengths not within the visible spectrum are not taken into account during lumen measurement. This is why pure Blue LEDs are rated much lower efficiency lm/W than white ones even though technically applying the phosphor to the LED makes the overall conversion less efficient, that is my current understanding of the rating system anyway and is perhaps why you see so many green-ish tints in top bin LEDs.

This would mean that 500 yellow-ish green lumens are the same as 500 more pure white lumens for helping provide feedback to the eye, which makes Surefire's claim of the wavelength being one the eye is more sensitive to somewhat irrelevant given they provide the lumen rating anyway.

Again, I'm not completely sure on this and no expert on the technicalities of lumen measurement so I could be mistaken at least partially.


----------



## Raze (Feb 8, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*

IMHO, white-wall hunters will enjoy pristine daylight-white high Kelvin light but if the light with that off-white tint is used as it was designed - as illumination tools - then using it outdoors shouldn't be a problem.

I've no qualms with the tint on my SF E2DL, but its off-centered emitter is what bugs me. I admit that it did not interfere with the performance and throw of the light, it's just the perfectionist in me that's having no peace 

YMWV


----------



## CarpentryHero (Feb 8, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*

Anyone know if the new LX2 will be the same size as the 200 lumen model? 
I found a used LX2 in a local ad and scooped it up, it's a great light. I like how slim it is compared to the 6P and C2 models


----------



## Glock 22 (Feb 8, 2012)

Just got off the phone with Tactical Leds, and I'm second in line for the new EB1. Right now they are just taking phone preorders, and one of the main salesman told me March or early April. John Moyer is who I talked to.


----------



## MrBenchmark (Feb 8, 2012)

GLOCK 22 said:


> Just got off the phone with Tactical Leds, and I'm second in line for the new EB1. Right now they are just taking phone preorders, and one of the main salesman told me March or early April. John Moyer is who I talked to.



Very cool. I wonder when they will release the updated LX2?


----------



## Glock 22 (Feb 8, 2012)

MrBenchmark said:


> Very cool. I wonder when they will release the updated LX2?


I'm wondering the same thing, the LX2 is another one I've gotta have. Hopefuly soon! I know of three different websites with it on there site as coming soon.


----------



## MrBenchmark (Feb 8, 2012)

GLOCK 22 said:


> I'm wondering the same thing, the LX2 is another one I've gotta have. Hopefuly soon! I know of three different websites with it on there site as coming soon.



I have a P2X Fury on backorder. I hope they don't release the LX2 500 the day after I receive the P2X. (I know, I know, buy them both...)


----------



## Glock 22 (Feb 8, 2012)

Yeah I know what you mean.:thumbsup:




MrBenchmark said:


> I have a P2X Fury on backorder. I hope they don't release the LX2 500 the day after I receive the P2X. (I know, I know, buy them both...)


----------



## jac2001 (Feb 8, 2012)

*Spoke with Greg @ Surefire on Monday night about another issue, but I asked about estimated delivery date of the LX2U. 
He said it would most likely be around end of 2nd Quarter or beginning of 3rd Quarter. No details yet on prices though!

Anybody need a kidney?!*:nana:

*J.*


----------



## FPSRelic (Feb 9, 2012)

Not sure if this has been asked yet, but does anyone know if the batteries in the rechargeable invictus are replaceable? Or are they built into the light?


----------



## Size15's (Feb 10, 2012)

FPSRelic said:


> Not sure if this has been asked yet, but does anyone know if the batteries in the rechargeable invictus are replaceable? Or are they built into the light?


Did you read the very first post of this thread?


----------



## FPSRelic (Feb 10, 2012)

Size15's said:


> Did you read the very first post of this thread?



I did. Ages ago. Apolgies. My mind is like a sieve these days.


----------



## Federal LG (Feb 11, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*



brianna said:


> This light is being advertised as 500 lumen's of yellow green light. Surefire thinks this is a good thing. Am I the only one that feels sickley yellow green light makes them feel like they are in a science fiction movie like Alien?



While my E1B, E1L (two) and E2L-AA have awesome "light vanilla" tints, and my G2X have a slightly cool tint, my L1 has a terrible green tint. I hate it.

I got my eye in LX2 U, but I would never get one due to it´s green tint. :sick2:

I don´t consider myself a white wall hunter. I just use my lights in outdoor, but green tints bothers me. I always know they´re there...

Ok, no problem, let´s go to the new EB1! :thumbsup:


----------



## jh333233 (Feb 11, 2012)

Size15's said:


> Did you read the very first post of this thread?


Its understandable.....
Not many people would like to read through all the posts even the first page


----------



## Lodogg2221 (Feb 11, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*



Federal LG said:


> While my E1B, E1L (two) and E2L-AA have awesome "light vanilla" tints, and my G2X have a slightly cool tint, my L1 has a terrible green tint. I hate it.
> 
> I got my eye in LX2 U, but I would never get one due to it´s green tint. :sick2:
> 
> ...



But has anyone confirmed or seen the tint of the LX2 Ultra? 
Ill wait to reserve judgment, just because Im not as knowledgeable about tint from Surefires description. Ive not seen one like it, so I wont know if it will bother me or not...if it renders colors better, I cant see how it would be a bad thing.
I guess the other thing is, the new LX2 has 50 more lumens...so theres another option! 

Geez. Im really gonna be broke this year....


----------



## Robin24k (Feb 11, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*

Looks like the first of SureFire's 2012 products to be out the door will be the rechargeable batteries...



Robin24k said:


> ​
> 
> ​
> ​



SureFire is waiting on packaging for the kit, and then it will be available from the website. I got an unpackaged kit for review (still waiting on the P2X to use these in...the Fury is out of stock at the moment, waiting on reflectors), and the batteries are made by K2 Energy and are 600mAh. No mention of where these are manufactured though...​


----------



## SoCalDep (Feb 20, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*

Re: The green tint. I don't know what it's going to look like with the LX2U, because I was focusing (slaps self) on the weapon-lights. The X300 Ultra (500 lumens, greenish tint) pissed me off at SHOT...I didn't like the green tint at all. In testing at our range though (in the dark...go figure) it was love! Color rendition seems better (to me) than many of the cool lights, and the greenish tint doesn't bug me...Maybe I'm just getting used to it. Even recovery of vision in a white-walled shoot house didn't seem (from my perspective) any longer with the X300 Ultra compared to my G2X Tactical or a regular X300. 

I REALLY want to look closer at an R1 Lawman (looked at it for a few minutes, then read about it in the brochure after we went by the booth, but I never had a chance to go back and really look closely at it) and I'm itching for an EB1!


----------



## AlphaZen (Feb 20, 2012)

*Re: Surefire LX2 lumamax*

Subpoenas


----------



## dmz (Feb 20, 2012)

*SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight:

1. Will the TIR make it only a thrower with little side spill?
2. What is meant by "Programmable Flashlight"? I prefer 15 lm to come on first, then 500 lm. Can it be reprogrammed for 15 lm first. 
3. What do you think the price will be?

http://www.ondutygear.com/images/products/surefire/detail/SF-DM2-DEFENDER.jpg


----------



## af112566 (Feb 20, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

i like this one!! hope it is the 15l first,then the 500!!


----------



## dmz (Feb 20, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

Is it the same emitter as the Fury? 
Any one care to speculate on the price?


----------



## Retinator (Feb 20, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

Given Surefire's track record of 'fantasy lights', it's hard to guarantee it's actual production. It's a seemingly small step from the Fury in design so it should come out sometime. Then again the LX1 was a similar to the LX2 and I don't think we'll ever see it.

From what I gather in the catalogue, I found their details to be quite vague on the programming. IMO programming is like [email protected]'s focusing - very overrated to the usefulness of the light.

TIR will concentrate light in a very tight beam, with little spill. Of course there can be various degrees of tightening so who knows.

Price - I'd guess that the ability to program it will boost the price from the Fury's current $ 155 to close to $ 300.
Time will tell if/when it's released.


----------



## angelofwar (Feb 21, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

Being a "defender", it will most likely come on high first, ala E1B, E2DL...so when you pull it, it's ready for a tactical situation. If you want a 15lm low on first, check out there outdoorsmans models. Or get the new LX2 that's coming out.


----------



## dmz (Feb 21, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

Any one care to speculate on the programming?


----------



## ScaryFatKidGT (Feb 21, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

New LX2? I just want a damn glass lens for my $150.


----------



## dmz (Feb 21, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*


----------



## thedofuss (Feb 21, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

Go to www.surefire.com, and see that the only 500 lumen light they currently sell is the Fury, P2X. It sells for $155, but sounds too good to be true, given Surefire pricing histiry. Does anybody have this light, who can comment on it? Note: They also have some 800-900 lumen lights, much larger, that sell for $400+, hence my comment.


----------



## WarriorOfLight (Feb 22, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*



thedofuss said:


> Does anybody have this light, who can comment on it?


There is a long thread about the Fury also with comments of the light onwers:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-P2X-B-quot-Fury-quot-500lu-flashlight-thread


----------



## Lodogg2221 (Feb 22, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*



ScaryFatKidGT said:


> New LX2? I just want a damn glass lens for my $150.



Why? Something wrong with the one in there? 

Glass isnt always better....or necessary.


----------



## jh333233 (Feb 23, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*



Lodogg2221 said:


> Why? Something wrong with the one in there?
> 
> Glass isnt always better....or necessary.



Apple to orange comparison
Hardness(Scratch resistance) vs Strength(Cracking)
Aesthetic issue too, scratches arent pretty


----------



## brianna (Feb 23, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

Glass is better. I have never broken a glass lens before. But I have scratched every single plastic lens I ever owned. Glass is better optically as well, also better light transmission.


----------



## DM51 (Feb 23, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*



brianna said:


> Glass is better optically... also better light transmission


... until it cracks or shatters.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove (Feb 23, 2012)

I think it is a matter of personal preference when it comes to glass vs plastic. You can make a strong argument for either. For me, I find I'm more likely to scratch a plastic lens than shatter a glass one. Therefore, I prefer glass. Others may prefer plastic.


----------



## KROMATICS (Feb 23, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*



brianna said:


> Glass is better. I have never broken a glass lens before. But I have scratched every single plastic lens I ever owned. Glass is better optically as well, also better light transmission.



Same here. All my lights with plastic lenses are badly scratched and look terrible. Never cracked or shattered a glass lens.


----------



## jonesy (Feb 23, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

I have a question about the different UI's available on the new EB1. Their catalog says that it has "a tactically advantageous push-for-momentary-on/twist-for-constant-on tailcap model or a convenient click-on/off tailcap." 

How will this work with the momentary/twist tactical option? Will it change from 200 lumens to 5 lumens every time I tap the tailcap while in momentary only mode? I was hoping for an LX2 interface, but I'm not sure if this one is the same.


----------



## Size15's (Feb 23, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

SureFire is proposing some of these models will be offered with either a "C" clickie TailCap for dual-output selection, or a "T" Two-stage aka 'Tactical' push button pressure switch.
For example I'm led to believe either LX2UC or LX2UT.


----------



## bkumanski (Feb 23, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

I like the "plastic" lenses for working lights. I "" plastic because obviously *fire lights wont use the same type of material as say Streamlight. The type of plastic is important and many are very scratch resistant (most of my Streamlights have held up well through the years) and low quality glass easily shatters. Heck, they even use an advanced plastic on some fighter jet canopies, so I really can't agree with glass always being better. It all depends on expected use (I know a good mineral glass lens will transmit more light for whitewall hunters) and quality of the material (never could break or scratch a stinger lens with duty use).


----------



## 880arm (Feb 25, 2012)

*Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*

I've seen some mentions of the new line of SureFires on here but I haven't seen any prices yet. While searching around the internet tonight I ran across a site that shows a few of them along with pre-order prices! Since I'm not familiar with the company I have no idea how reliable these are but I thought they would be worth sharing. [EDIT: I found another site with identical prices so I have more confidence in their accuracy. Also, added info for a few more models]

*UBR Invictus ($485)* - More or less like the existing 800 lumen UB3T but can use the included rechargeable battery or 2 CR123's and has a 4-way tailcap. (UBR-A-BK)

*UM2 Ultra ($209.30)* - All the goodness of the old U2 but with 500 lumens output and a TIR lens. It will also have a choice of switches, either momentary or clicky. I am very tempted to hit the pre-order button on this one! (U2-A-BK)

*LX2 Lumamax Ultra ($210)* - Upgraded LX2 with 500 lumen output and TIR lens. (LX2UT-A)

*EB1 Backup ($154)* - Upgraded E1B with 200 lumens output. Will be available in Black and Silver colors and with clicky or momentary tailcaps. (EB1C-A-BK, EB1C-A-SL, EB1T-A-BK, EB1T-A-SL)

*R1 Lawman ($320)* - New product line with up to 700 lumens output. Utilizes head and tailcap switching. Comes with proprietary Surefire rechargeable battery or can be powered by 2 CR123's w/ battery magazine. (R1-A-BK)

*UDR Dominator ($960)* - 2,000 lumens.  'Nuff said. Powered by included rechargeable battery or a bunch of CR123's (UDR-A-BK)

*UNR Commander ($416)* - 800 max lumens controlled by 6 setting ring and includes the 4-function tailcap. Comes with proprietary rechargeable battery or can be powered by 2 CR123's w/ battery magazine. (UNR-A-BK)

*Aegis ($280)* - More masculine version of the ISIS. Black HA with titanium accent. 150 lumens output, TIR lens, and "touch" switch (TRA-A-BK)

*DM2 Defender (No price)* - Looks like the love child of a E2DL and Fury. 500 lumens, TIR lens, and programmable.

*ZM2 Combatlight (No price)* - Like the old Z2. 500 max lumens and TIR lens.

*UAR Aviator (No price)* - 500 lumens with four presets and 4 function tailcap.

*UN3 Commander (No price)* - 800 max lumens with 6 control ring settings and a 2-stage switch. Combatlight style body.

*R2 Lawman (No price)* - Same as R1 but can only be used with internal rechargeable battery.

Has anyone else heard of any pricing info? To be honest, I expected the new offerings to be higher than this. If these are correct, then I suppose this explains the recent price reductions on their existing line of products.


----------



## yifu (Feb 26, 2012)

*Re: Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*

The prices sound about right. I remember hearing that the release was going to be mid to end of this year, which is very late considering that these were announced more than a year ago. 
IMO they shouldn't discontinue their old P60 lights C2/C3/6P/9P/Z2 were the best P60 hosts ever made and now they are gone forever. They could easily have put in a better LED drop-in in them instead of discontinuing, which would have made them a lot more modular and compatible with the whole market of aftermarket switches, bezel rings, bezels, tailcaps, tailcap shrouds, 2 way clips, lens and P60 drop ins. Much more attractive to cpfers.


----------



## awenta (Feb 26, 2012)

*Re: Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*

UM2 sounds awesome. Love my other SF TIR lights. But the UDR! 2000 SF lumens?!


----------



## awenta (Feb 26, 2012)

*Re: Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*



yifu said:


> The prices sound about right. I remember hearing that the release was going to be mid to end of this year, which is very late considering that these were announced more than a year ago.
> IMO they shouldn't discontinue their old P60 lights C2/C3/6P/9P/Z2 were the best P60 hosts ever made and now they are gone forever. They could easily have put in a better LED drop-in in them instead of discontinuing, which would have made them a lot more modular and compatible with the whole market of aftermarket switches, bezel rings, bezels, tailcaps, tailcap shrouds, 2 way clips, lens and P60 drop ins. Much more attractive to cpfers.



They are the most modular. Guess its time to buy and stock up before they cost more than their weight in gold. I wonder what will take over if these fade out. SF might bring back something similar if it's demanded.


----------



## dmz (Feb 26, 2012)

*Re: Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*

What's the price on the DM2 Defender?


----------



## iapyx (Feb 26, 2012)

Size15's said:


> SureFire is proposing some of these models will be offered with either a "C" clickie TailCap for dual-output selection, or a "T" Two-stage aka 'Tactical' push button pressure switch.
> For example I'm led to believe either LX2UC or LX2UT.



So if you have e.g. an LX2UT and you would like it to be an LX2UC as well all you would have to do is get another tailcap, a clicky tailcap in this case. In that case it would be wise for SF to deliver the light with those two tailcaps. I foresee a scenario where some folks will (falsely) report that their tailcap is malfunctioning and ask for a replacement tailcap. If they have a clicky the replacement asked for could be a twisty and voilà, they have an LX2UT and LX2UC. Unless SF registers which serial numbers have a 'C' and which have a 'T'


----------



## Size15's (Feb 26, 2012)

If [and I'm not sure just how much of an assumption this is] the difference is just the TailCap then I agree that supplying both, along with a spare two-way pocketclip would give the user choice, flexibility and a backup in the event of a failure.


----------



## Viper715 (Feb 26, 2012)

If the one with the clicky still has two modes that would be via the driver and not controlled by the TC. I doubt that will be the only difference. I also doubt strongly that SF would send out the light with two tc's.


----------



## Brasso (Feb 26, 2012)

I'm very much hoping that the EB1 has a two stage pressure switch like the L1 and LX2. This is the only thing that would persuade me to buy one. In fact, it's the one thing that has me wanting this light. Otherwise it's back to trying to find an L1. I guess we're back to waiting like we did with the LX1. I hope we're not disappointed again.


----------



## leon2245 (Feb 26, 2012)

Even if (maybe especially if) swapping out for the clicky renders it a single mode, I'll do whatever it takes to make a clicky LX2U... so long as these aren't _too_ greenly optimized for the human visual range.

:sick2:

That would be nice though, if you could get both tailcaps without having to buy both versions, swap, & flip etc.


----------



## 880arm (Feb 26, 2012)

*Re: Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*



dmz said:


> What's the price on the DM2 Defender?



I haven't been able to find any prices listed for that one. I will update the OP if I find anything.

I don't want to read too much into this because we all know SureFire's history with releasing new products, but I think this may indicate at least some of the new lights will be available soon.


----------



## diggumsmack2 (Feb 26, 2012)

*Re: Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*

*UM2 Ultra ($209.30)* - All the goodness of the old U2 but with 500 lumens output and a TIR lens. It will also have a choice of switches, either momentary or clicky. (U2-A-BK)


*Gets my vote!!*


----------



## af112566 (Feb 26, 2012)

*Re: Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*

yes,,the um2 ultra is a must!! also the lx2 ultra....


----------



## JNewell (Feb 26, 2012)

*Re: Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*



> *UM2 Ultra ($209.30) - All the goodness of the old U2 but with 500 lumens output and a TIR lens. It will also have a choice of switches, either momentary or clicky. I am very tempted to hit the pre-order button on this one! (U2-A-BK)
> *



How can it have all the goodness of the U2 without a reflector? Seriously.


----------



## JNewell (Feb 26, 2012)

*sigh* You had to bring that one back up...  



Brasso said:


> I'm very much hoping that the EB1 has a two stage pressure switch like the L1 and LX2. This is the only thing that would persuade me to buy one. In fact, it's the one thing that has me wanting this light. Otherwise it's back to trying to find an L1. I guess we're back to waiting like we did with *the LX1. I hope we're not disappointed again*.


----------



## KDOG3 (Feb 27, 2012)

Anyword on when the EB1 will be available? I have an interview in 2 days for a security position and it would be cool to start out with a good light...


----------



## Size15's (Feb 27, 2012)

I fear you've got three hopes:
Bob Hope, no hope, antelope


----------



## Size15's (Feb 27, 2012)

I fear you've got three hopes:
Bob Hope, no hope, antelope


----------



## KDOG3 (Feb 27, 2012)

Well I guess I wasnt clear. I didnt expect the light to be available in two days lol. I just wanted to know when I could expect to get my hands one as soon as possible.


----------



## brianna (Feb 27, 2012)

As in many years past. Just because it is in the Surefire catalog, does not mean it will ever be available. It is anybody's guess as to if or when this light will be available. My guess is May. July at the latest if this light is even going to be available.


----------



## Blindasabat (Feb 27, 2012)

We need a pool (betting pool) on how many of these lights will be released in 2012. Maybe a 50/50 via paypal with half going to CPF? Greta?

But seriously, I have not bought much in the past few years other than neutral LED upgrades to existing lights, but the new programmable lights have me very, VERY interested. Of course they must be moddable. I have neutral XP-G and XM-L already waiting.


----------



## Lodogg2221 (Feb 27, 2012)

Well, the UM2 has pricing out there, and one site is taking pre-orders. Maybe the dealers have word on when they should be in?

Anyway, the Lawman will be out soon, they said so in their video, and I dont know about anyone else, but Ive been bugging the crap out of them for a replacement for my 8AX. Plus, they had it ready before, just upgraded the LED, so hopefully we will see it in the next month or two.

Those two alone will leave me broke for a while, but with their outputs, I think Ill be happy to wait for more! LOL!


----------



## madx312 (Feb 29, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*



dmz said:


> Any one care to speculate on the programming?



According to the SF Catalog, with all programmable lights, SF will supply a USB type dongle along with software to allow users to define the output/runtime balance that we desire. It mentions that after we define our output/runtime parameters in the program, we place the light bezel down on the dongle and execute the program. Apparently light from the dongle will flash into the flashlight's optic and re-program the output levels we defined. Pretty innovative I think. :thumbsup:

This can be found on page 32 of the SF catalog if you have the PDF version.


----------



## pjandyho (Feb 29, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*



madx312 said:


> According to the SF Catalog, with all programmable lights, SF *will supply* a USB type dongle along with software to allow users to define the output/runtime balance that we desire.


I don't know where you got this information from but I honestly doubt the dongle would be supplied with every light purchased. I somehow have this feeling that it is going to be sold as an optional accessory. Of course I do hope that what you said is true.


----------



## madx312 (Feb 29, 2012)

Well the catalog doesn't specify if it will be included in the purchase. It just makes it apparent that it's available whether it is supplied (which I hope it is) or if we need to buy it (hopefully not expensive). 

If you just look at the catalog you can read it yourself. It's listed under pg. 29 on the catalog and pdf will say pg. 32 because it counts the cover and table of contents as pages.


----------



## Brasso (Feb 29, 2012)

They should just do an iphone app so we can use our phone as a dongle.


----------



## Flashlight Dave (Feb 29, 2012)

*Re: Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*



JNewell said:


> How can it have all the goodness of the U2 without a reflector? Seriously.



I agree with you on that. I like my lights floody and don't know why surefire is making so many TIR lights. I just bought a L4 just because it has a reflector.


----------



## JNewell (Feb 29, 2012)

*Re: Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*

Yeah...I just bought an (are you sitting?) L2!



Flashlight Dave said:


> I agree with you on that. I like my lights floody and don't know why surefire is making so many TIR lights. I just bought a L4 just because it has a reflector.


----------



## Illumination (Feb 29, 2012)

Yeah, not crazy about the TIR focus (pun intended). 

Too many TIR offerings... Just not practical to have such a prounced drop offoutside of the center of the beam. The new U2 replacement looks great save for the TIR. Would definitely prefer a reflector.


----------



## Flashlight Dave (Feb 29, 2012)

*Re: Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*



JNewell said:


> Yeah...I just bought an (are you sitting?) L2!



i LOVE my L2! 

I am probably 6 years behind but I have been thinking of making a two stage high and low twisty switch for my L4. I understand McClickie no longer makes them so I plan to make my own.


----------



## Falco (Mar 1, 2012)

What ever happened to the Saint, I can only find the various versions of the Minimus?


----------



## KROMATICS (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*



madx312 said:


> According to the SF Catalog, with all programmable lights, SF will supply a USB type dongle along with software to allow users to define the output/runtime balance that we desire. It mentions that after we define our output/runtime parameters in the program, we place the light bezel down on the dongle and execute the program. Apparently light from the dongle will flash into the flashlight's optic and re-program the output levels we defined. Pretty innovative I think. :thumbsup:



I just noticed that according to the catalog not only is the upcoming UBR Invictus programmable but the UB3T Invictus is programable as well. Not sure if that includes those already on the market or only new versions for 2012.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*



Flashlight Dave said:


> i LOVE my L2!
> 
> I am probably 6 years behind but I have been thinking of making a two stage high and low twisty switch for my L4. I understand McClickie no longer makes them so I plan to make my own.



The L2 was one of my first forays into the world of Surefire. Still works just fine and puts out a very nice "wall of light". Except for todays lights that have more impressive runtimes per lumen, that 22 lumen low is a great nighttime walking light. A great light and I think you've done well.


----------



## jh333233 (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: Pricing on new 2012 SureFires*



[email protected] said:


> The L2 was one of my first forays into the world of Surefire. Still works just fine and puts out a very nice "wall of light". Except for todays lights that have more impressive runtimes per lumen, that 22 lumen low is a great nighttime walking light. A great light and I think you've done well.


Give a try to ask a L1/A2 tailcap from Surefire?
No-hassle warranty i bet
Besides, their service is superb and far better than satisfactory


----------



## Blindasabat (Mar 2, 2012)

I am LOVING all the TIR offerings - especially the UM2. Though I wish it retained the clip of the original. That and lack of my current U2's awesome neutral tint are the only reasons I wouldn't get a new one.
A TIR will get rid of that nasty useless concentration of light at the edge of the reflector - which is both distracting and wasteful. Bring on the smooth edges of the TIR!
BTW, the KX TIR optics get a bad rap when they DO have spill. They just don't have the bright edge that illuminates what you AREN'T looking at and can ruin your night vision when you are trying to see far away objects. Things up close (trees overhanging, ground at your feet, etc.) are lit up like the sun. And the spot size of the KX optic is excellent - not too small.

And you can put a diffuser on a thrower, but you can't put anything on a floody to make it throw. Except maybe a GIANT reflector around it.


----------



## tab665 (Mar 2, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*



KROMATICS said:


> I just noticed that according to the catalog not only is the upcoming UBR Invictus programmable but the UB3T Invictus is programable as well. Not sure if that includes those already on the market or only new versions for 2012.


i wonder if the term progamable is being used loosely in this case, in that you can use the selector ring to determine what brightness the light will come on at.


----------



## brianna (Mar 3, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

I love the TIR optics too. I can't ever imagine going back to a old fashioned reflector ever again. TIR feels like the future of flashlights here today.


----------



## KROMATICS (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*



tab665 said:


> i wonder if the term progamable is being used loosely in this case, in that you can use the selector ring to determine what brightness the light will come on at.



They are pretty clear that if it has the programable logo next to it in the catalog then it can be used with the special accessory and software to program it.


Page 29:

New for 2012, any SureFire light identified by a “programmable” icon can now be custom programmed by the user via a new SF programming dongle that’s easy to use. You set the precise output/runtime balance that’s right for you. Just connect the dongle to your computer via its USB port, set the output levels using the software, and then position your light—bezel down—on top of it to complete user programming. Light from the dongle will literally flash into the flashlight’s optic and re-program the output levels to the parameters you defined.


----------



## iapyx (Mar 5, 2012)

I was just having another look at the catalogue again ad specifically at the UM2 and LX2 Ultra. 
For long the U2 has been my favorite light. Slowly the LX2 took over. Simply because it's more EDC'able
Looking at the catalogue I am wondering which one I'd rather have this time. Then I read that the UM2 on low still delivers 10 lumens! Where's the low low? Six settings and no low low? That's where the dongle comes around. It's programmable. You can probably get your low low, but for how much? That's the question. What will those dongles cost........


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 7, 2012)

EB1... where are you??


----------



## sjmack (Mar 8, 2012)

I just cannot get behind the new surefire styling. I think it looks like crap. I just ordered another 6P and a 9P because the old stuff was just so much better in my opinion.


----------



## Blindasabat (Mar 13, 2012)

The UBR Invictus says you can choose from 8 levels of light down to 2 lumens. Does not specify if that is the lowest via programming or not. I hope it can go way lower.

How do the two LX2 versions, one 250L (XP-G?) and one 500L(XM-L?) both get a claimed 13,000 lux from the same (apparant) size bezel? <<EDIT: Smacked my own head when I thought about this when I wasn't rushed - Duh! I have understood this before. Temporary brain freeze.>>

Some other observations:
- That 4-function tailcap on the UBR and UNR ("comes standard on" those two) detailed on page 28 is sweet! I hope it can be used on other lights too.
- With the L1/L2/A2/LX2/A2Z/etc two-stage tailcap available on several new lights as Tactical versions, we will have a whole new family of LX1 and LX2 style lights including the "C/P series" sized lights with 500L and ~26mm TIRs. Also awesome.

I can not wait to see how the programming dongle works.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Mar 13, 2012)

Blindasabat said:


> The UBR Invictus says you can choose from 8 levels of light down to 2 lumens. Does not specify if that is the lowest via programming or not. I hope it can go way lower.
> 
> How do the two LX2 versions, one 250L (XP-G?) and one 500L(XM-L?) both get a claimed 13,000 lux from the same (apparant) size bezel?



Lux is proportional to surface brightness, not total lumens.
_Cree XP-G_ die surface area is 2 mm2, xml 4 mm2, so they are both 125LM/mm surface brightness, gives same lux under same reflector size.


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## Blindasabat (Mar 13, 2012)

I suppose you are right, I had not gone through the areas in my head. The numbers work out rather well that way. Curious they work out exactly the same, but the catalog released at SHOT is notorious for being slightly inexact too. That's what I get for a hasty post when I should be working!


ma_sha1 said:


> Lux is proportional to surface brightness, not total lumens.
> _Cree XP-G_ die surface area is 2 mm2, xml 4 mm2, so they are both 125LM/mm surface brightness, gives same lux under same reflector size.


----------



## jh333233 (Mar 15, 2012)

> Lux is proportional to surface brightness, not total lumens.


Physics question:
What if we shine 10 lights at same point?
How would lux be affected


----------



## yifu (Mar 15, 2012)

jh333233 said:


> Physics question:
> What if we shine 10 lights at same point?
> How would lux be affected


Just add them up! However if measured in a lab, it's not the case due to EMR wave interference, ala the ones seen in Thomas Young's double slit experiment. However this effect is very small as LEDs vary in chromaticity.


----------



## jh333233 (Mar 15, 2012)

yifu said:


> Just add them up! However if measured in a lab, it's not the case due to EMR wave interference, ala the ones seen in Thomas Young's double slit experiment. However this effect is very small as LEDs vary in chromaticity.


So i wonder why would he say


> Lux is proportional to surface brightness, not total lumens.



Since putting lights together never changed the surface brightness, only the emitting area


----------



## Blindasabat (Mar 15, 2012)

Adding LED surface area in one light with the given optic changes lux/area, but if you add a second light, you also add a second optic, so the effective lux/area stays the same, but your lumens double, so the lux on target should double (assuming no wave interference). Using two of the same light aimed at the same spot is similar to using a double sized LED, double lumens, and a double sized optic in one light. It turns out that LED surface area versus optic area (simply diameter if the design is the same between all optics compared) helps determine the effect of changing the LEd or optic. Of course design factors are often a large part of it, so you can almost never directly compare optic diameter to figure out if one is better than the other.



jh333233 said:


> So i wonder why would he say
> 
> Since putting lights together never changed the surface brightness, only the emitting area


----------



## funder (Mar 15, 2012)

throw (in candela) limit can be calculated as: luminance (surface brightness, in cd/m^2 or nit) x projection area x 1/(refractive index of first optics)^2

when you shine two lights on one target, the luminance of the LED keep unchanged, but the projection area is doubled since you have two bezel.


----------



## jalcon (Mar 15, 2012)

Will the new 2012 surefire lights such as the new LX2, ED2 ect still be able to be taken apart, like they are now? Or will they be like the 6PX, Fury ect, where as they are not meant to be taken apart?


----------



## ABTOMAT (Mar 29, 2012)

sjmack said:


> I just cannot get behind the new surefire styling. I think it looks like crap. I just ordered another 6P and a 9P because the old stuff was just so much better in my opinion.



I'm with you on the styling. It's just so chunky. The UM2 weighs almost twice what the old U2 does, unless it's a misprint. TIR optics can't weigh that much and it doesn't even have a pocket clip.


----------



## SDM44 (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm eagerly awaiting for the X300 Ultra 500 lumen weapon-mounted light.

Although I assume it's probably just an upgraded LED, possibly lens, heat sink, and wiring, in order to allow for 2 x RCR123 batteries to get the 500 lumen output on it.


----------



## Tana (Mar 29, 2012)

jalcon said:


> Will the new 2012 surefire lights such as the new LX2, ED2 ect still be able to be taken apart, like they are now? Or will they be like the 6PX, Fury ect, where as they are not meant to be taken apart?



LX2U and EB1 should be back-compatible with E-series as you still have to remove head to install batteries... body and tailcap of LX2 and LX2U seem to be the same (push-tailcap)... as for Clicky mode, the switching will be in the head, basically the same internals like E2DL - same specs... Can't be sure about new LX2 250 lumens with original tactical UI... probably different electronics (similar to LX2U) but different emitter and amps to it... but all these bodies should work fine, at least on high on any other E series and clone bodies...

Of course, I'm only referring to: LX2U, LX2, EB1 and E2DL from 2012 catalog... And I'm guessing here based on few answers I got from Surefire CS while in correspondence...


----------



## Blindasabat (Mar 29, 2012)

There are clues in the 2012 catalog why the LX1 has been dropped. Basically is can be/has been replaced by the EB1 with tactical two-stage tailcap (optional) and to an extent could also be replacedby the V1 Vampire which comes stock with the two stage tactical switch.
I'm liking that EB1 more and more all the time.


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 13, 2012)

Coming soon on LED-Resource...



​


----------



## Lodogg2221 (Apr 13, 2012)

Robin24k said:


> Coming soon on LED-Resource...
> 
> 
> 
> ​




OH HECK YEAH! Cant wait for that to be released!


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 13, 2012)

It's expected to be available to the public sometime next week.  I'll try to have some runtime information up before then.


----------



## tab665 (Apr 14, 2012)

robin24K, since you seem to have a heads up on some of surfires releases, do you know anything about the dominator's target release date, or general target release quarter?


----------



## pjandyho (Apr 14, 2012)

tab665 said:


> robin24K, since you seem to have a heads up on some of surfires releases, do you know anything about the dominator's target release date, or general target release quarter?


Yeah I am interested in the dominator.


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 14, 2012)

No word on any of the other rechargeables...official response is "they'll be out when they're ready, however long that might take."


----------



## pjandyho (Apr 14, 2012)

Robin24k said:


> No word on any of the other rechargeables...official response is "they'll be out when they're ready, however long that might take."


I was wishing you might know something. I hope it is not another vaporware from SF, and I hope it does not cost me both my arms and legs.


----------



## angelofwar (Apr 14, 2012)

Well, these new RC's solve the issue that "plagued" previous SF rechargeables...


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## Robin24k (Apr 14, 2012)

pjandyho said:


> I was wishing you might know something. I hope it is not another vaporware from SF, and I hope it does not cost me both my arms and legs.


I don't think it's going to be vaporware (they're also introducing the same head on some weaponlights), but it will probably cost you both arms, both legs, and possibly an ear too...


----------



## pjandyho (Apr 14, 2012)

Robin24k said:


> I don't think it's going to be vaporware (they're also introducing the same head on some weaponlights), but it will probably cost you both arms, both legs, and possibly an ear too...


LOL! I will give them my tongue, nose and eyes too. Maybe I won't get to see the light after that. Haha!


----------



## Size15's (Apr 15, 2012)

Like the Mini-Hellfighter prototype...


----------



## DimeRazorback (Apr 20, 2012)

R1 Lawman is now available! Tempted to buy one...


----------



## Lodogg2221 (Apr 20, 2012)

Tempted...hell, Im thinking of ordering one this weekend. Ive been waiting FOREVER for a good replacement for my 8AX, and this should fit the bill nicely...only trouble is, the 8AX isnt worth too much these days to offset the cost. Oh well. If this lasts as long as the 8AX, it will be well worth it. Going on 6 years with the old one.


----------



## 0dBm (Apr 21, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

I haven't purchased a new Surefire flashlight product since Fall 2001. The only product in that entire 2012 catalogue that appeals to me is the ZM2. For my taste, this product may be the one that equals the impact of the original 6P that was introduced over two decades ago. The equivalent output from the M6 and that silly-looking Dominator in a pocketable, 2-CR123 format just may be a replacement for my well-used 6Z.


----------



## Tsujigiri (Apr 25, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

That new LX2 looks like a great offering... but what's the difference between the regular one and the Ultra? If they're programmable, couldn't you just get the Ultra and then change the outputs so it would be exactly the same as the regular model? Unless there's a huge price difference between the two models, I don't see the reason for them offering the lower output model.

On a side note, I wonder if you could program a light so it flickers in a way that resets everyone else's Surefires to 1 lumen :duh2:


----------



## Lodogg2221 (Apr 25, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*



Tsujigiri said:


> That new LX2 looks like a great offering... but what's the difference between the regular one and the Ultra? If they're programmable, couldn't you just get the Ultra and then change the outputs so it would be exactly the same as the regular model? Unless there's a huge price difference between the two models, I don't see the reason for them offering the lower output model.
> 
> On a side note, I wonder if you could program a light so it flickers in a way that resets everyone else's Surefires to 1 lumen :duh2:



Other than the output, the difference is the color tint...Ultra is a yellow/green according to Surefire. Whitewall hunters will be disappointed for sure...


----------



## Tsujigiri (Apr 25, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*



Lodogg2221 said:


> Other than the output, the difference is the color tint...Ultra is a yellow/green according to Surefire. Whitewall hunters will be disappointed for sure...



Haha whitewall hunters...

Sounds like a neat package all around. Do we know if the programming allows you to add a strobe mode or not?


----------



## Tsujigiri (Apr 26, 2012)

*Re: SureFire DM2 Defender 500 Lumen Programmable Flashlight*

Nevermind, looks like you can!


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 26, 2012)

I wouldn't count on the programming dongle being available anytime soon...at least not until all of the rechargeable lights have been released. I've been told that it's been relegated to the back burner until then...


----------



## pjandyho (Apr 26, 2012)

I remember some were speculating that SF would package the dongle with the lights but what you said has cleared up the air. So we now know that SF would indeed sell the dongle as an optional accessory. I wonder how much it would cost then.


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## Lodogg2221 (Apr 26, 2012)

Well thats BS. Sorry, I love Surefire, but for them to have and advertise programmable lights, and let us buy them, but NOT give us the ability to program them, well, like I said, thats BS. 
Now if all the rechargeables are going to be released within 30 days of the first (the Lawman), then fine, but still, it should be packaged with the light.


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 26, 2012)

There was no promise that the programming dongle would be immediately available or included with any of the programmable lights...


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## Lodogg2221 (Apr 26, 2012)

Robin24k said:


> There was no promise that the programming dongle would be immediately available or included with any of the programmable lights...



I understand, but they make it a big part of their advertising so far for the new lights, so it would only make sense to have it available when the first of the lights are released, not the last of them.
They already have it developed, otherwise they wouldnt know if it worked, and Ive seen videos of it working, so, again, its not all that hard for them to do it, its just that as of now, like you said, they put production of it on the back burner. 

It wont affect me buying any of them, but I do have a right to not be happy with them about it....

And I still say it should be packaged with the lights, as its directly related to the funciton of the light. 
Im sure its just a business decision that they dont, and thats fine, but it would make a lot more sense to have it with the lights. 
I suppose given the fact that more than a few of us will purchase multiple programmable lights, that will use the same interface, it may make more sense money wise for us to have them available separately, but again, I want it with my light so I can use all the features of said light right away.

Im not really a patient guy...lol, though I have been waiting for the Lawman for 2 years now....so maybe Im getting better...


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 26, 2012)

Lodogg2221 said:


> They already have it developed, otherwise they wouldnt know if it worked, and Ive seen videos of it working, so, again, its not all that hard for them to do it, its just that as of now, like you said, they put production of it on the back burner.


Videos? Do share...


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## MrBenchmark (Apr 26, 2012)

Lodogg2221 said:


> And I still say it should be packaged with the lights, as its directly related to the funciton of the light.
> Im sure its just a business decision that they dont, and thats fine, but it would make a lot more sense to have it with the lights.



If the lights are well designed, most users won't actually need the programmability, and therefore this would either:
- add cost
- reduce surefire's profit
- or both

I am not arguing with your disappointment over this, just pointing out that innovative as this is, and as much as users of these forums would like the feature (I know I certainly would), that the number of folks in SF's core market who'd want it might really be fairly low. Would you, for example, need a dongle for every flashlight? No, you'd really only likely need just one, which you'd (presumably) use to program many lights for your organization.

What's the usage case for changing the programming of a given light more than once or twice, until it's perfect for your use? (Other than it's cool to be able to do, and people on this forum would almost certainly do interesting things.)

BTW, am I the only one who giggles a little, like an adolescent, every time they see the word "dongle"? You'd think, after 30 years, I'd get over this. But nope.


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## Lodogg2221 (Apr 26, 2012)

I get it about the dongle (no you arent the only one), but I think some have overblown my disappointment into disgust or something....the internet has a way of letting people decide for themselves how upset a person is...and act according to their own idea on that. I agree on all your points too about it...most wont use it, or buy it, and would probably be more disappointed than I am about having to pay for it with a light when they wont use it...as I said, its been blown out of proportion...but we have to have something to do right?

As far as videos go, one was floating around here somewhere, and it wasnt only about the programming, rather an interesting little addition to a video about all the lights and the features of them. I caught it, and caught a lot of other info that Ive shared in this thread too, though if I need a video to prove any of that info, please feel free to contact a mod to delete them, as I didnt know I would have to have documented proof and as such did not save links....my bad.


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## MrBenchmark (Apr 26, 2012)

Lodogg2221 said:


> but I think some have overblown my disappointment into disgust or something....the internet has a way of letting people decide for themselves how upset a person is...



Sorry, didn't mean to imply you shouldn't feel the way you feel, or that you were wrong to point out that SF promised a new toy, and then yanked it away into the scary and nebulous "later this year..." (There are many other times they've done this with lights that never materialized - "we'll do that later" is scary.) No argument from me on that. 

Hopefully they follow through on this, and the dongles will see the light of day. (Sorry, I can't help but giggle over that last sentence...)


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## ABTOMAT (May 28, 2012)

I have an original U2 and I'm debating going with a UM2 or something else. UM2 seems bigger and heavier with no clip. Wondering if keeping the U2 and scraping together for a UB3T for high power adventures would be worthwhile.

When's the UM2 coming out, anyway?


----------



## FPSRelic (May 29, 2012)

ABTOMAT said:


> I have an original U2 and I'm debating going with a UM2 or something else. UM2 seems bigger and heavier with no clip. Wondering if keeping the U2 and scraping together for a UB3T for high power adventures would be worthwhile.
> 
> When's the UM2 coming out, anyway?



Hey! You just wait your turn! They need to release my M2D yet before they get onto your UM2


----------



## Robin24k (May 31, 2012)

EB1 and UNR are scheduled for a July release. 

http://www.led-resource.com/upcoming-led-products/


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## Viking (May 31, 2012)

Great news thanks.
I can't wait to buy a EB1.


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## Robert_M (May 31, 2012)

I can't wait for Robin24k to test these!!! :twothumbs


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## FPSRelic (Jun 1, 2012)

How reliable is that site? It mentions the eb1 as having 2 x cr123a's.


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## chriscoobs (Jun 1, 2012)

Sf is hurting right now they are trying to sub lease 75,000 sq ft of their mfg space and still have 5 years on the leas according to a friend of mine in he commercial real estate business in southern cal.


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## FPSRelic (Jun 1, 2012)

OT but that could mean anything. Production ramping down from dwindling military contracts, more efficient manufacturing methods or reduction in the number of models offered are three possibilities that spring to mind.


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## jh333233 (Jun 1, 2012)

God, im tired of waiting
C'mon Surefire, be faster


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## Sean (Jun 1, 2012)

My main concern about the EB1 is that I have no idea what the programming tool is going to cost. It would be great to be able to reprogram it to your liking but at what cost?


----------



## pjandyho (Jun 2, 2012)

Sean said:


> My *main concern* about the EB1 is that I have no idea what the programming tool is going to cost. It would be great to be able to reprogram it to your liking but at what cost?


Then don't get the programming dongle. I believe the EB1 should serve it's purpose well given the default factory settings.


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## Sean (Jun 3, 2012)

pjandyho said:


> Then don't get the programming dongle. I believe the EB1 should serve it's purpose well given the default factory settings.



That defeats one of the great options of their new programmable lights. To be able to set it up exactly how you want. That's something I would very much like to do. Even thought I would probably drive myself crazy, changing it around all the time. 
Also, the EB1 is longer than the original backup. 4.4". The LX2 is only one inch longer at 5.4" and brighter and longer lasting. It's too bad they couldn't have kept it as short as the original. 

By the way,
Do you like your UB3T better than your 400L M3LT? Just wondering since you have had both of those for some time.


----------



## pjandyho (Jun 3, 2012)

Sean said:


> By the way,
> Do you like your UB3T better than your 400L M3LT? Just wondering since you have had both of those for some time.


Well to be honest, even though the UB3T is noticeably brighter, I still prefer the tint of the 400 lumen M3LT. Although it is not a high CRI cool white, it produces the most accurate color rendition so far. Unfortunately I had sold the M3LT off quite some time ago. Kind of regretting the decision to sell.


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## Sean (Jun 4, 2012)

pjandyho said:


> Well to be honest, even though the UB3T is noticeably brighter, I still prefer the tint of the 400 lumen M3LT. Although it is not a high CRI cool white, it produces the most accurate color rendition so far. Unfortunately I had sold the M3LT off quite some time ago. Kind of regretting the decision to sell.



I certainly understand what you are saying. One thing about the UB3T is it runs longer at 800 lumens than the M3LT runs at 400 lumens. Nice tint, short runtime.

I'm wondering what the efficiency of the EB1 is going to be when run on low compared to the older E1B version?


----------



## pjandyho (Jun 4, 2012)

Sean said:


> I certainly understand what you are saying. One thing about the UB3T is it runs longer at 800 lumens than the M3LT runs at 400 lumens. Nice tint, short runtime.
> 
> I'm wondering what the efficiency of the EB1 is going to be when run on low compared to the older E1B version?


I don't think we will know until the actual stuff appears. Could be a new emitter they are using, and how efficient it would be also depends on the driver. Meanwhile we could only anticipate.


----------



## schmanto (Aug 6, 2012)

There is a new video about the new 2211 wristlight on their youtube channel.


----------



## johnny0000 (Aug 6, 2012)

Neat-o video! The acting could use some work, but that's a cool little light. I won't hold my breath, but it sure is nice.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove (Aug 6, 2012)

schmanto said:


> There is a new video about the new 2211 wristlight on their youtube channel.



2211? Is that the scheduled release date? 😊


----------



## chrisbfu (Aug 6, 2012)

The new Backup looks great!


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## kj2 (Aug 6, 2012)

I like that 2211


----------



## pulstar (Aug 31, 2012)

Hi guys, any news? Particulary about LX2 Ultra and other TIR lights...


----------



## Lou Minescence (Sep 1, 2012)

pulstar said:


> Hi guys, any news? Particulary about LX2 Ultra and other TIR lights...



Read post # 12 in this thread :

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...nt-even-more&p=4005511&highlight=#post4005511


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## tab665 (Sep 2, 2012)

im waiting for the dominator still. god knows when that will come out.


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## 276 (Sep 4, 2012)

tab665 said:


> im waiting for the dominator still. god knows when that will come out.



+1


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## brianna (Sep 6, 2012)

The Surefire EB1 is scheduled for a 4th quarter release. Production is to be started in November. It should be available mid to late November. Run time is not confirmed yet, but 200 lumens for production has been confirmed. At this time everything is a go for the new EB1.


----------



## Sean (Sep 6, 2012)

What about the UM2?


----------



## greatscoot (Sep 6, 2012)

Some pretty cool lights in the video. Too bad they are not going to produce some of them. Just going to wait for the EB1


----------



## Raptor Factor (Sep 6, 2012)

Surefire has put out a few gear recommendation videos and the lx2 ultra is advertised in the latest one. I'd think that by advertising it again they are planning on releasing it soon? hopefully...


----------



## FPSRelic (Sep 7, 2012)

Are you talking about this video? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeM6XKxtOsE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Definately looks like it should be released soon, if not now I would've thought. I've never seen a vaporware light demo'd in a promotional video. Very promising


----------



## Raptor Factor (Sep 7, 2012)

Yeah that's the one. Besides, I don't think they'd leave there flagship model sitting at 200 Lumens when you could buy a much cheaper Fury, none would sell. Stoked for the LX2 Ultra!


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## pjandyho (Sep 7, 2012)

From the video, the LX2 Ultra seems to have a very broad and nice beam profile. However I am not so sure if many will like the beam since Surefire indicated on their product catalogue that it is going to be greenish because our human eyes are more sensitive towards the green spectrum.


----------



## FPSRelic (Sep 7, 2012)

pjandyho said:


> From the video, the LX2 Ultra seems to have a very broad and nice beam profile. However I am not so sure if many will like the beam since Surefire indicated on their product catalogue that it is going to be greenish because our human eyes are more sensitive towards the green spectrum.



I'm guessing that's just marketing speak to explain away the green tint of XML. That part wouldn't bother me. What would is if the beam profile is floody. My favorite thing about my old lx2 is its throw. It makes its low mode usable for 99% of tasks even outdoors. If the ultra has less throw than the old lx2 or the Fury, I think I'd actually pass on it. And considering the lx2 is my favorite surefire, that's a bold statement for me.


----------



## pjandyho (Sep 7, 2012)

FPSRelic said:


> I'm guessing that's just marketing speak to explain away the green tint of XML. That part wouldn't bother me. What would is if the beam profile is floody. My favorite thing about my old lx2 is its throw. It makes its low mode usable for 99% of tasks even outdoors. If the ultra has less throw than the old lx2 or the Fury, I think I'd actually pass on it. And considering the lx2 is my favorite surefire, that's a bold statement for me.


I am guessing that it might most likely adhere to the same throw but with a broader beam profile. That would definitely be a winner for me.


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## 276 (Sep 9, 2012)

Looks like the UNR Commander is out its on brightguys website


----------



## iapyx (Sep 9, 2012)

FPSRelic said:


> I'm guessing that's just marketing speak to explain away the green tint of XML. That part wouldn't bother me. What would is if the beam profile is floody. My favorite thing about my old lx2 is its throw. It makes its low mode usable for 99% of tasks even outdoors. If the ultra has less throw than the old lx2 or the Fury, I think I'd actually pass on it. And considering the lx2 is my favorite surefire, that's a bold statement for me.



+1 and I first would like to hear people's opinion on this light once it's out.


----------



## 880arm (Sep 9, 2012)

276 said:


> Looks like the UNR Commander is out its on brightguys website



Interesting, I wonder if they actually have it in stock. Several retailers have shown the new lights on their web sites for a while now.

I kind of expected any new releases to show up on a certain online auction site just as soon as they are released (or just before). I think the Fury and Lawman were on there a several days before they were actually shipping from any retailers.


----------



## ABTOMAT (Sep 9, 2012)

880arm said:


> Interesting, I wonder if they actually have it in stock. Several retailers have shown the new lights on their web sites for a while now.
> 
> I kind of expected any new releases to show up on a certain online auction site just as soon as they are released (or just before). I think the Fury and Lawman were on there a several days before they were actually shipping from any retailers.



UNRs are up on eBay, too. I assume they're not preorders.


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## FPSRelic (Sep 9, 2012)

ABTOMAT said:


> UNRs are up on eBay, too. I assume they're not preorders.



Really? Sweet. I'm looking forward to finding out how well the new 4 way switch works.


----------



## 880arm (Sep 9, 2012)

ABTOMAT said:


> UNRs are up on eBay, too. I assume they're not preorders.



Good find, I missed those. It looks like they sold a couple and then pulled down their other listing. I believe they were pre-orders because of the longer than normal shipping time (4-10 days) they had in their listing. Their web-site still shows the same "Estimated to ship in 15-25 days" that's been on all the new Surefires since they first went up. However, this is very encouraging because I don't believe these guys would put them out like that if they didn't (almost) have them in hand.

Now how about those EB1's???


----------



## Melson (Sep 10, 2012)

kj2 said:


> I like that 2211



They didn't have any room to put a clock on the 2211 at all? I admit it is sweet, it's just without a clock on it she becomes slightly impractical.

UNR commander is as predicted pricey but I am sure those that have the money will love it.


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## Raptor Factor (Sep 14, 2012)

All you Surefire fans check out the companies new site layout (still surefire.com) and well your at it check out the lx2 ultra!  yes I did say that...


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## dano (Sep 15, 2012)

276 said:


> Looks like the UNR Commander is out its on brightguys website



I splurged, and it'll be in my paws on the 17th, if UPS cooperates...


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## Robin24k (Sep 15, 2012)

I've got one on order as well...looks like the UNR is indeed ready to go. :thumbsup: MSRP is $595.


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## jellydonut (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm wondering what on earth happened to this.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5369453338/

The Streamlight TLR-3 is *not* a viable alternative -- instead of making a slimmer light, they made a shorter light. I have no need for that.


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## 276 (Sep 15, 2012)

dano said:


> I splurged, and it'll be in my paws on the 17th, if UPS cooperates...




I would have done the same if i had the money or if i could decide between UNR or the wristlight when it comes out.


I see the output of the wristlight went from 200 lumens to 180.


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## Raptor Factor (Sep 16, 2012)

The X300 Ultra is also on the company site "Available at authorized SureFire dealers" for the same price as the lx2 ultra


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## radioactive_man (Sep 16, 2012)

If you click the product description for the 2211, it says "release date to be determined".

I wonder if the LX2 Ultra has more throw than the LX2 or just more output and a wider beam. Someone needs to buy both and do a comparison review.


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## Raptor Factor (Sep 16, 2012)

If the catalog is right, then the ultra version has more throw than the 200 lumen version, because it is 13,000 candella.


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## Viking (Sep 16, 2012)

The upcoming *LX2* ( not the ultra model ) must have a narrower beam pattern ( more focus ) , than the new *LX2 ultra*.

They both throw 13.000 candela. But while the *LX2 ultra* need 500 lumens to do that , the upcoming *LX2* only needs 250 lumens to do the same.

If you like throw and long runtime as well , the upcoming *LX2* ( 250 lumens version ) is probably the best choice , I would think.


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## Craig K (Sep 16, 2012)

Viking said:


> The upcoming *LX2* ( not the ultra model ) must have a narrower beam pattern ( more focus ) , than the new *LX2 ultra*.
> 
> They both throw 13.000 candela. But while the *LX2 ultra* need 500 lumens to do that , the upcoming *LX2* only needs 250 lumens to do the same.
> 
> If you like throw and long runtime as well , the upcoming *LX2* ( 250 lumens version ) is probably the best choice , I would think.



Wait...what?...So is there also a new LX2 model coming out as well as the LX2 Ultra?


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## Viking (Sep 16, 2012)

Well not quite yet. But according to their 2012 products catalog , it's on the way.

http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/graphics/pagebuilder/pdfs/2012_SureFire_catalog_med_res.pdf


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## Robin24k (Sep 17, 2012)

Here's a sneak peek of the UNR Commander...











​


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## Dr. Strangelove (Sep 17, 2012)

Robin24k said:


> Here's a sneak peek of the UNR Commander...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Robin, can't wait for your review!


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## verysimple (Sep 17, 2012)

nice pics and thanks for the preview



Robin24k said:


> Here's a sneak peek of the UNR Commander...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## dano (Sep 17, 2012)

Received mine this A.M. It's defective, as only three out of the four modes operate. So, any opinions/reviews are on hold as the light is getting sent to SF. 

Contacted SF, they were very helpful and professional...They're going to inspect, etc. Probably an early model slip-through. I'm not too worried about it.


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## Robin24k (Sep 17, 2012)

What's wrong with the inoperative mode? Keep in mind that there's not an incredible difference between 500 and 800 lumens. I've been blazing through runtime tests since my UNR arrived, but all modes seem to work fine on my sample.

BTW, what's the serial number? Unfortunately, as with most electronics, early models are more likely to have issues.


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## Sean (Sep 17, 2012)

Robin24k said:


> Here's a sneak peek of the UNR Commander...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What are the brightness levels? The catalog only mentions the lowest & highest.

What kind of beam profile do you get with that optic?


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## Robin24k (Sep 17, 2012)

800 lumens high, 500 lumens medium high, 140 lumens medium low, 30 lumens low.

More info here: http://www.led-resource.com/upcoming-led-products/


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## Sean (Sep 17, 2012)

Robin24k said:


> 800 lumens high, 500 lumens medium high, 140 lumens medium low, 30 lumens low.
> 
> More info here: http://www.led-resource.com/upcoming-led-products/



What kind of beam profile do you get with this size TIR optic?


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## Robin24k (Sep 17, 2012)

It's similar to the R1, except with a bigger and less defined hotspot. I still have it on the test bench, but I'll post a beamshot once it finishes the current runtime test.


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## leon2245 (Sep 18, 2012)

Viking said:


> The upcoming *LX2* ( not the ultra model ) must have a narrower beam pattern ( more focus ) , than the new *LX2 ultra*.
> 
> They both throw 13.000 candela. But while the *LX2 ultra* need 500 lumens to do that , the upcoming *LX2* only needs 250 lumens to do the same.
> 
> If you like throw and long runtime as well , the upcoming *LX2* ( 250 lumens version ) is probably the best choice , I would think.



awesome- & I can't see the linked cat. for some reason, but is the 250l lx2 still supposed to be a clicky? I wouldn't be surprised if they scrap this.


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## Viking (Sep 18, 2012)

They will make it in two versions. A Click-on/off tailcap and the two-stage tailcap as well.


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## Robin24k (Sep 18, 2012)

I've started a new thread for the UNR Commander: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?344452-SureFire-UNR-Commander


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## windrider75 (Sep 20, 2012)

Hi guys, I'm new to this forum but have been a regular reader of this thread. 

Anyway, I noticed that Surefire has removed the LX2 LumaMax Ultra (both the product page and video reference) from this page just a few hours ago.The product page for LX2 LumaMax is no longer accessible.

This could only mean one thing...


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## leon2245 (Sep 21, 2012)

windrider75 said:


> Hi guys, I'm new to this forum but have been a regular reader of this thread.
> 
> Anyway, I noticed that Surefire has removed the LX2 LumaMax Ultra (both the product page and video reference) from this page just a few hours ago.The product page for LX2 LumaMax is no longer accessible.
> 
> *This could only mean one thing*...



Are you implying that the LX2 Ultra has been preemptively banned, by _Obama?!

_:shakehead





Welcome to CPF!!


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## jellydonut (Sep 21, 2012)

windrider75 said:


> Hi guys, I'm new to this forum but have been a regular reader of this thread.
> 
> Anyway, I noticed that Surefire has removed the LX2 LumaMax Ultra (both the product page and video reference) from this page just a few hours ago.The product page for LX2 LumaMax is no longer accessible.
> 
> This could only mean one thing...



Wow! Usually when Surefire products vaporize into mist, they never get as far as getting their own product page. That's disconcerting.


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## Raptor Factor (Oct 22, 2012)

Surefire seems to be upgrading their existing lights and going with the fury line instead of introducing some of the new catalog lights. They updated the 6PX/G2X/Z2X/G2ZX lights with a 320 Lumen emitter today (you can't buy a 200 lumen one on their site anymore). Also here are some new release dates (we'll see if they actually come through on them) http://www.ondutygear.com/blog/release-dates-for-new-surefire-lights/2012/10/


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## EzGoingKev (Nov 25, 2012)

Does anyone have any updates on the UM2 Ultra being released?


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## brianna (Nov 30, 2012)

Honestly I refuse to even look at the catalogue any more, simply too much disappointment. Most will not even be made. Chances are the light you want the most will never be made.


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## Flashlight Dave (Nov 30, 2012)

brianna said:


> Honestly I refuse to even look at the catalogue any more, simply too much disappointment. Most will not even be made. Chances are the light you want the most will never be made.



Like the LX2 Ultra. One light that would have sold off the shelves but they seemed to have canned it. No replacement to the 200 lumen LX2, yeah that makes sense. :hairpull:


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## EzGoingKev (Nov 30, 2012)

It seems like all they did was concentrate on giving everything 500 lumens with a 1 hour run time.


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## rocled (Dec 27, 2012)

The silver EB1 has shown up on a great HQ to buy BLADEs and other goodies


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Dec 28, 2012)

brianna said:


> Honestly I refuse to even look at the catalogue any more, simply too much disappointment. Most will not even be made. Chances are the light you want the most will never be made.





Raptor Factor said:


> Surefire seems to be upgrading their existing lights and going with the fury line instead of introducing some of the new catalog lights. They updated the 6PX/G2X/Z2X/G2ZX lights with a 320 Lumen emitter today (you can't buy a 200 lumen one on their site anymore). Also here are some new release dates (we'll see if they actually come through on them) http://www.ondutygear.com/blog/release-dates-for-new-surefire-lights/2012/10/






EzGoingKev said:


> It seems like all they did was concentrate on giving everything 500 lumens with a 1 hour run time.




Almost time to start the yearly SF product marketing cycle anew, the 2013 catalog should be out any day now. As I wrote on this thread almost a year ago:



Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Yep, it's that time of year again.
> 
> If it were another manufacturer, we would accuse them of blatantly displaying more vaporware. Of course, since it is SF, usual excuses will apply, they can't keep up with demand, it's a small mom and pop company, PK is a genius and perfection can't be hurried, prices are high to fund even more new products, CPF is not the primary market demographic, what do we know?
> 
> ...



http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...New-Products&p=3849741&viewfull=1#post3849741


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## twl (Dec 28, 2012)

I actually thought that they scored pretty well with the Fury.
The performance for the price range really isn't bad, by usual SureFire terms anyway.

I still think that they should have continued the regular "P series" lights, and entered their own set of "drop-ins" for them. That market is definitely still there, and they were very desirable hosts for drop-ins. Heck, they could have made good money just selling hosts. It was really a shame for them to discontinue that line. That was their best contribution to the flashlight market, IMO.


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## KROMATICS (Dec 30, 2012)

We should create an end of year review/checklist of what did and did not get released. I know the UBR Invictus and Dominator didn't happen as those were the two I was interested in (of course).


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