# Need help with my pool water (very cloudy)



## Pydpiper (Aug 13, 2009)

We went away for a few days, pool greened on us. Shocked it, turned the green to a cloudy pool, can't seem to be able to do anything to clear it up, I need help!
Any thoughts?

Thanks..


----------



## saabgoblin (Aug 13, 2009)

If I remember correctly, I believe that it is a ph balance issue aqnd it requires a separate kit and test equipment.


----------



## Patriot (Aug 13, 2009)

Reversing green pools is what I do, as I take care of about 45 pools weekly. 

Sometimes you'll get a strain of bacteria that is especially resistant to the chlorine. In order to help you best, I'll need to know approximately how large (in gallons) your pool is and what type of chlorine you've used so far. Since you stated it was "shock" all assume it was Dichloro-s-triazinetrione, or simply "Di-chlor."

Also it would help to tell me how deep the pool is and if you can see the bottom or not.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 14, 2009)

OMG, Patriot....another common interest.

Always at the opening of our 20x40 30K Gal pool it is horrible green no matter if I used solid cover or LoopLoc and kept the leaves off regularly. pH always started uber-low, often requiring 15-20 lbs pH increase....then begins the chlorine & algaecide.

3 bottles of the highest quality algaecide, and 25-30 lbs of 65%+ HTH before it even STARTS to register on testing. It is celebration when it registers on chlorine testing, but even with stabilizer, free Cl is short lived, and at least another 10-15 lbs before it is resolving. Once I get it opened, the rest of the year is a breeze, and very little chlorine is required.

One year I tried the gallon bottles...6 cases (24 bottles) later, I gave up and went back to powder.


----------



## Patriot (Aug 14, 2009)

Right on Lux. It sounds like you've truly got that routine dialed in, but I do feel your pain about the stabilization process, especially on 30K gallons........ugh...:sweat: A Pita, 15K pool is sometimes more trouble than one of the 65K gallon pools I take care of. 

Just a couple of curiosity questions: Since it sounds like you're running a seasonal pool would it make more sense to drain it each year instead? Also, is it a plaster pool, and last question, what filter type are you running?


----------



## Patriot (Aug 14, 2009)

Pydpiper, You'll likely be awake and kicking several hours before me so I'll just give you a generic recipe based on an average pool with an average problem, since the sooner you get on top of the chlorine issue the better. 

*Based on a 20K gallon pool with heavy cloudiness with some green on walls.*

If you have a Sand or DE filter, backwash first before adding your chems. Add new DE if applicable.

Add 1.5 lbs of Calcium Hypochlorite
Add 1.5 lbs of Tri-chlor **crucial**
Add 3, full size tablets to pool and spread them out if possible. (one in skimmer, one in float, one in chlorine positive feed...if you have one)

Run pool for 24 hours continuously before cutting back to 8 hours daily. If the pool is still doing well you can cut back the time in 30 minute increments until back to your regular temperature/time formula. This should take care of the pool for about a week, then resume your normal chemical protocol. 




*If you can't see the bottom at 6 feet.*

If you have a Sand or DE filter, backwash first before adding your chems. Add new DE if applicable.


Add 2.0 lbs of Calcium Hypochlorite
Add 2.0 lbs of Tri-chlor
Add 4, full size 3" tablets
Add one full bottle of Algaedyne liquid algaecide to skimmer, slowly pouring in full contents over a period of 5-10 minutes...or just follow the instructions on the back. I've used about 8-10 bottles of it this summer and it worked great in every case. Make sure that you add the granulated chlor first, before adding the Algaedyne. It's important that the chlor level is high, otherwise the liquid algeacide looses some of it's effectiveness.

Run the pool for 48 hours continuously before cutting back to 8 hours daily. If the pool is still doing well you can cut back the time in 30 minute increments until back to your regular temperature/time formula. This should take care of the pool for about a week, then resume your normal chemical protocol. 


Just a quick head's up that you'll likely get many opinions from the chemical supplier about how to attack your problem but there is no exact formula despite what people say. There is usually an experience difference between the folks who handle a lot of pools and the folks who just sell the chems. Mine is based upon what works here with our extreme heat and monsoon run-off. It will cost you about $15-25 bucks if you don't need the algaedyne but it's better to hit it hard one time since failed treatings only make the pool more resistant to reversal. Bare in mind that in most cases I'm having to pay for chems myself, so I only use what's needed. I mention this because I wanted to save you as much as possible with my recommendation. 

I hope that helps. Let me know how ya did please.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 14, 2009)

Patriot said:


> Just a couple of curiosity questions: Since it sounds like you're running a seasonal pool would it make more sense to drain it each year instead? Also, is it a plaster pool, and last question, what filter type are you running?



I grew up with a plaster/gunnite pool, and swam competitvely, but this one is a vinyl liner, so can't drain it. I have thought about converting it to plaster, but the liner has worked fine. Large Hayward sand filter & great gas heater that adds at least 2-3 months to the useable season. This liner is going on 10-12 years...tell tale signs of failure developing with those 2-3" shallow cup-like depressions developing in the deep end where some apparent holes have leeched away the sand underneath. However, there is negligible water level lost. With all the rain this year, have only needed to add water once since early June.

Biggest pita this year, I think from all the rain is the 2 birch trees are dropping their leaves already.


----------



## Pydpiper (Aug 14, 2009)

The pool is 4' deep, 15' round pool, pretty small..
I dumped a 3 gallon pail of chlorine in about 4 days ago, that is what switched it from green to cloudy, and also what I called "shocked".
There is about 3-4" of visibility in there, pretty bad..
I went in it yesterday to have a better look/feel, there is no slime. Besides the color you would never know anything was wrong..
Is that enough info? Let me know if there is anything else I can provide.
And thank you, very much!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 14, 2009)

It needs more shock...and check pH


----------



## Patriot (Aug 14, 2009)

Pydpiper said:


> The pool is 4' deep, 15' round pool, pretty small..
> I dumped a 3 gallon pail of chlorine in about 4 days ago, that is what switched it from green to cloudy, and also what I called "shocked".
> There is about 3-4" of visibility in there, pretty bad..
> I went in it yesterday to have a better look/feel, there is no slime. Besides the color you would never know anything was wrong..
> ...





Like Lux stated, get your PH down to about a 7.2 for starters. I forgot that you guys use different materials and have lined pools back there so you better tell me what type of construction it is if not plaster or pebble tech. 

So are you using liquid chlorine thus far or granules...and did you really mean to say 3-4 inches of visibility or did you mean feet?


----------



## Patriot (Aug 14, 2009)

Just wanted to post a picture of one of my pools today that I serviced and to let you know what I consider "cloudy" by the classic definition. 

This pool is 35K gallons and about 8.5" real depth. You can just see the bottom of the pool and the 1.5lbs of tri-chlor granules that I just dumped in.









I treated this pool with my first recommendation treatment listed above and the pool will look like the one below tomorrow. 







I say that with some confidence because he's having a pool party tomorrow and I assured him it would look great. 


If you're water is darker and more opaque than the first picture above, then go with recommendation 2 and pick up some Algaedyne or Pool Doctor, or other similar product. Again, correct your PH levels and proceed with the treatment. 

Good luck man! I'm sure you're eager to get it turned around. 








*Lux, *that's a great filter that you have and if I was building a pool today it's probably exactly what I would use myself. Nothing fancy, just a good old sand filter that I can backwash at my convenience. They're trouble free, reliable, and maintenance cost and labor time are low. Knowing you, it's probably something you choose after research. 

I don't know if you have fiberglass pool installers back east or not but if you do, it's worth investigating when the time comes. I handle 3 types mainly and can say without any doubt that the most trouble free pools are glass. There are a few unique care techniques with glass and you can't use granular hypo-chlorite based shocks but overall they're fantastic. If you ever want to talk about it give me a call sometime. I'll be happy to put you in touch with a long time friend and glass pool builder here in AZ, just to yak his ear off if you'd like. I'm really surprised there aren't more glass pools here but plaster is traditional and pebble tech is trendy with great profit. I just think the word needs to get out.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm new to pool's too.
I'm in S. Florida and I have a pool cage.

When I turn on my under-water pool light at night , I have a lot of white particles floating around in the water. Is that normal in a pool ?

Any idea what that is and how to get the water totally clear ?

Pool test kits (test strips) show the water is fine to swim in. 
.


----------



## Patriot (Aug 14, 2009)

It's hard to speculate about that one. If you have a salt cell, it's likely calcium and other generated minerals from the production of chlorine. It usually accumulates in positive feed spas due to the fact there's no vacuum cleaner and no constant return from the spa. In other words, the heavy minerals in the form of crystals stay at the bottom of the spa as return comes from the pump, to the spa, then spills into the pool. This, just to say if you don't have a spa but you have a salt cell, I'm not surprised it's floating around. This is normal and the filter will trap it as soon as the water passes the filter. There's a way of testing this theory which I won't go into unless you have a salt cell. If you're not sure what you have just post of picture of your pool equipment. 

If you don't have a salt cell (salt pool) it could literally be anything. If you have a sand filter with old sand, that can sometimes blow past the baffles and the smallest sand will suspend in the water. If you have a DE filter, you may be seeing DE material floating around due to a pinhole or a tear in the micro screening. These would be very tiny though. 

Honestly, unless you're seeing anomalous characteristics in the water during daylight I really wouldn't sweat it. The pool light will show every single detail in the water just like a flashlight will in dusty or moisture ladened air. This doesn't mean that you're not seeing the beginning of a problem somewhere, but until it gets worse or becomes more evident you might was well not worry about it. I would liken it to taking your car to the service center and the technician noting that one of the seals is slightly damp but not leaking yet.


----------



## Patriot (Aug 14, 2009)

One of the pools I take care of, just thought I share the view.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/Patriot222/43008Brawleys50a-1.jpg


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 15, 2009)

Patriot said:


> It's hard to speculate about that one. If you have a salt cell, it's likely calcium and other generated minerals from the production of chlorine. It usually accumulates in positive feed spas due to the fact there's no vacuum cleaner and no constant return from the spa. In other words, the heavy minerals in the form of crystals stay at the bottom of the spa as return comes from the pump, to the spa, then spills into the pool. This, just to say if you don't have a spa but you have a salt cell, I'm not surprised it's floating around. This is normal and the filter will trap it as soon as the water passes the filter. There's a way of testing this theory which I won't go into unless you have a salt cell. If you're not sure what you have just post of picture of your pool equipment.
> 
> If you don't have a salt cell (salt pool) it could literally be anything. If you have a sand filter with old sand, that can sometimes blow past the baffles and the smallest sand will suspend in the water. If you have a DE filter, you may be seeing DE material floating around due to a pinhole or a tear in the micro screening. These would be very tiny though.
> 
> Honestly, unless you're seeing anomalous characteristics in the water during daylight I really wouldn't sweat it. The pool light will show every single detail in the water just like a flashlight will in dusty or moisture ladened air. This doesn't mean that you're not seeing the beginning of a problem somewhere, but until it gets worse or becomes more evident you might was well not worry about it. I would liken it to taking your car to the service center and the technician noting that one of the seals is slightly damp but not leaking yet.



What he said. 

Also from my peanut gallery, if you have all the treating chemicals working right, I sometimes use the liquid clarifier/flocculants which clumps together tiny particles and precipitates them to the bottom and/or increases trapping in the filter. I usually vacuum up the bottom sending it to waste to reduce chance of getting through the filter into the pool again.

Beautiful pool shots, Patriot.


----------



## DonShock (Aug 15, 2009)

Pydpiper said:


> We went away for a few days, pool greened on us. Shocked it, turned the green to a cloudy pool, can't seem to be able to do anything to clear it up, I need help!
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks..


I had a similar thing happen with my Mom's pool a while back. Not a pool guy but I do work at a drinking water production plant, so I decided to treat it the same way I do at work. I assumed the cloudiness was due to the killed algae from the chlorine shock and I just needed to get the particles big enough to settle or filter out of the water. I bought a gallon of Alum (aluminum sulfate) and a couple ounces of polymer (cation). I don't recall how these were labeled as pool chemicals because I was looking at the chemical names in the ingrediants. But it might have been marked Clarifier. These are the chemicals we use in water treatment to clean up the water to make it drinkable, along with chlorine. IIRC, I dosed the pool at about 1/2 gallon of alum for evey 10,000 gallons in the pool and didn't even need to use the cation. It cleared up the pool in about a day. The cation might be needed to help polish the water clarity but it's the alum that really makes everything clump up big enough to get filtered out. If you need to use cation the dose would be about 2 oz per 10,000 gallons.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 15, 2009)

Thanks guys ........
No salt cell .... no spa ....
I just have a 1 hp pump and 1 ft diam. X 2ft long paper element filter.

I'll just ignore the dust particles in my water.

But I may look into getting a SOCK I heard someone speak of. I guess it goes in the skimmer basket - don't know.

It's amazing how much small junk and tiny bugs,ants and spiders get into the pool EVEN when ya have a screened pool cage.
.


----------



## Patriot (Aug 15, 2009)

Paper cartridges filter down pretty small so if it's working correctly, meaning that it's seated properly at the bottom and it doesn't have any cuts, tears, or blow outs, you should have very clear water. Clarifiers as *Lux* mentioned are a good idea as long as your filter element is 100%. If it's aging and due for replacement then skip the treatment and replace the filter. This is a unique consideration to cartridge and DE systems since treaments only work if the micro texture is sound. Sand systems aren't finicky like the others but also don't filter down as finely as cartridge or DE.


----------



## JohnR66 (Aug 15, 2009)

Glad there are pool experts here. We use my brother's pool on the weekends (12x20x4d) My brother is autistic and can't take care of it, so my parents, who live closer to him than I, have be sure to keep the chemistry right on the pool or it will get algae growing.

If they let it get to this condition, I shock it and put in some algaecide to clear it up, but the DE filter seems to get clogged and pumping the backwash lever doesn't help much. I have to take the filter apart and soak it in acid.

Is there another way to clear that filter? We have 3 weeks of swimming left and I hate to take that thing apart again.


----------



## Beamhead (Aug 15, 2009)

Sweet, poolguy/patriot, I only have one question, how serious are elevated levels of CYA (cyanuric acid)?
I have had one guy tell me not to worry until it reaches 200ppm + and another say freak out if it's above 80ppm.

Due to my method of fending off yellow algae it causes my CYA to run about 100ppm.
Thanks from a first year pool n00b.


----------



## LEDAdd1ct (Aug 15, 2009)

Patriot, *nice* "pool shot!" Man, that is a beautiful view!


----------



## Patriot (Aug 15, 2009)

JohnR66 said:


> If they let it get to this condition, I shock it and put in some algaecide to clear it up, but the DE filter seems to get clogged and pumping the backwash lever doesn't help much. I have to take the filter apart and soak it in acid.
> 
> Is there another way to clear that filter? We have 3 weeks of swimming left and I hate to take that thing apart again.







Very thoughtful of you and the family to help and pitch in. :twothumbs

Regarding the "clogging" I'd have to know how you're determining that it is clogged. I'll assume you're measuring this by the filter pressures but I have to make sure before sending you on a goose chase. Also, please let me know if it's a salt pool.


----------



## Patriot (Aug 15, 2009)

Beamhead said:


> Sweet, poolguy/patriot, I only have one question, how serious are elevated levels of CYA (cyanuric acid)?
> I have had one guy tell me not to worry until it reaches 200ppm + and another say freak out if it's above 80ppm.
> 
> Due to my method of fending off yellow algae it causes my CYA to run about 100ppm.
> Thanks from a first year pool n00b.





Well, I'm guessing that you're not ever intentionally adding CA (stabilizer) and that it's just occurring from the continued use of tabs and hypo-shock. At 100, you're definitely on the fringe in my book and that's even true for Arizona where we keep it high to help against UV killing our chlorine. Unfortunately there's no way of reducing the level except by draining. If all of your other readings are in the proper range, you can get away with periodic partial drains...say 2" per week until you're back around 60-80. Since pools can normally takes years to build up CA, I would call into question your treatment of "yellow" or mustard algae. There are ways of getting rid of it without sending your CA over the edge. 








> *LEDAdd1ct
> *Patriot, *nice* "pool shot!" Man, that is a beautiful view!


It's gorgeous out there isn't it. The house isn't extravagant either, probably 2400 square feet, and ranch style. They have horses and riding trails. The owners spent the summers in Oregon and rent this home out to vacationers. It's one of my favorite stops during the week.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 15, 2009)

Beamhead said:


> Sweet, poolguy/patriot, I only have one question, how serious are elevated levels of CYA (cyanuric acid)?
> I have had one guy tell me not to worry until it reaches 200ppm + and another say freak out if it's above 80ppm.
> 
> Due to my method of fending off yellow algae it causes my CYA to run about 100ppm.
> Thanks from a first year pool n00b.



This link specifically addresses the downside specific to yellow algae...mainly as reduced chlorine santitation ability.

Interestingly, this WIKI entry "Safety" section classifies CA as "essentially nontoxic."


----------



## tiktok 22 (Aug 15, 2009)

When I first moved into my house, I knew nothing about a pool(20,000 in ground). I surfed the web and came here and here. Awesome info. 12 years later, I haven't been to a pool supply store yet for chemistry.


----------



## turbodog (Aug 15, 2009)

Don't want a pool. Don't care for them.

However... this is too cool not to mention to you guys.

Was visiting my family in Dothan, AL about 20 (ouch) years ago when I was in college. My brothers and I were riding bikes in the area and they showed me something.

There was an old hotel. It looked like it had been abandoned back in the 1950's or something. Roof was falling in. Kudzu/etc was growing all over it.

About 100 yards away was the old hotel pool. It was spotless. It was a concrete pool, with a bottom feed underground spring in one corner. The spring fed up through some sand, which you could see churning, via about a 3' diameter hole in the bottom of the pool. The runoff was in another corner.

If I ever have a pool, that's what I want. Crystal clear and no maintenance.

If it had been modern times I would have snapped a pic on a cell phone or something.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 15, 2009)

tiktok 22 said:


> When I first moved into my house, I knew nothing about a pool(20,000 in ground). I surfed the web and came here and here. Awesome info. 12 years later, I haven't been to a pool supply store yet for chemistry.



The second link (poolforum.com) is useless, IMHO, because they have blocked any new people from joining their forum, and appear to be in some sort of battle with another pool website. I wouldn't pay any attention to a site that doesn't allow me to join and ask questions.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 15, 2009)

turbodog said:


> Don't want a pool. Don't care for them.
> 
> However... this is too cool not to mention to you guys.
> 
> ...



Yeah, that does sound cool. Having a naturally flowing underground spring unfortunately is not something that is available. Once I get my pool opened, there is virtually no mainenance. Maybe 5 mins a week. Obviously they're not for everyone, but I wouldn't buy a house without one.


----------



## Beamhead (Aug 15, 2009)

Patriot said:


> Since pools can normally takes years to build up CA, I would call into question your treatment of "yellow" or mustard algae. There are ways of getting rid of it without sending your CA over the edge.


All the research I have done on mustard/yellow/pollen algae is the main thing that kills it is hyper/super chlorination/shock and whatever yellow out/kill ...nonsense they try and sell you(it is the chlorine that kills it).
Regular algaecide won't prevent it so higher than normal levels of chlorine keep it dead and gone. 
I have a relative who handles a large private(members only) pool and he told me that they can legally keep the free chlorine levels at 10ppm and that will keep that ever so pesky yellow crap gone, so I keep my free chlorine at 7.5-10 ppm with zero yellow algae, but the tabs I use and the chlorbrite super chlorinator are causing the CYA to climb quickly.

I will drain the pool by about 50% upon closing this year, and that should help, but if you have the "right" way to prevent, not get rid of but prevent yellow algae please let me know.

I have spent hours on the net, talking to several "pros" and the debate over what if any true lasting effects of high levels of CYA are wide open, I have an interesting pdf that basically argues all sides and about the only conclusion is that over time high levels of CYA "may" harm equipment but not bathers.:tinfoil:

Thank you for sharing your expertise, most guys are not so open in this field.:thumbsup:


----------



## tiktok 22 (Aug 15, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> The second link (poolforum.com) is useless, IMHO, because they have blocked any new people from joining their forum, and appear to be in some sort of battle with another pool website. I wouldn't pay any attention to a site that doesn't allow me to join and ask questions.


 Not sure why you can't register, but the information is still sound.


----------



## Patriot (Aug 16, 2009)

Beamhead said:


> All the research I have done on mustard/yellow/pollen algae is the main thing that kills it is hyper/super chlorination/shock and whatever yellow out/kill ...nonsense they try and sell you(it is the chlorine that kills it).
> Regular algaecide won't prevent it so higher than normal levels of chlorine keep it dead and gone.
> I have a relative who handles a large private(members only) pool and he told me that they can legally keep the free chlorine levels at 10ppm and that will keep that ever so pesky yellow crap gone, so I keep my free chlorine at 7.5-10 ppm with zero yellow algae, but the tabs I use and the chlorbrite super chlorinator are causing the CYA to climb quickly.
> 
> ...








With high CA over 200, it is indeed not very good for you. They've testing the stuff on lab mice and there becomes a point at which it's harmful. If you don't mind taking your chances in an area like this, well to each their own I suppose...lol. I just know that I wouldn't go in and out of a pool on a daily basis with super high CA. 

Obviously your CA isn't that high but I just say that to refute some of the loose 200+ CA talk. If people who say that let their kids swim in the water, I regretfully must say it's foolish to play with the unknown. 

In any case, lets just focus on the how the CA is effecting your situation at the moment. You sort of have two choices here but I think the preference will be obvious. You can run your chlor at 8-10ppm with a 100+ CA reading, or you can run your chlor at 5-7ppm and a 60 CA reading and you'll essentially be having the same effect on bacteria. High CA equal less effective chlorine. 

The link that *Lux *shared was pretty good and it illustrates why this is the case. To quote from the link:

_"At moderate levels of stabilizer with 2 ppm chlorine you will achieve an oxidation level of approximately 725 mV which is enough to achieve a kill time in the milliseconds range. With a high stabilizer level at the same or higher chlorine level, you will have a hard time achieving even a 600 mV reading which will extend your kill time to seconds and even minutes." _

Regarding the ways of dealing with mustard algae without raising the CA unnecessarily high, you can add liquid chlor (the purest form of chlor) or Calcium-Hypoclorite. Both of these work extremely fast, especially if you maintain your normal dose of tablets, which contain tri-chlor. Neither liquid chlor or Cal-hypo contain stabilizers and thus wont add to your problem.

Bring your CA down to 60...tops. Cut back your tab input a little so that your running chlor level down to a 5-6 constant. When and if the yellows show up, add liquid chlor or cal-hypo to spike the chlor up. This will greatly increase the chlor without increasing CA. No form of yellow is going to live in a 10-15ppm chlorinated pool. When the strain is gone in a few days, let your level fall back to 5-6. With very difficult strains, add and liquid algaecide like Pool Doctor Algaedyne. It's a dark brown/rusty color and works miracles.

In the winter time, ruduce your Chlor ppm even further, down to a 1-3.

I hope I didn't miss anything since I had to re-write this once already....lol. ....and just to wrap up the main point of this, having really high CA will cause you to chase your tail and it's counter productive since you can achieve the same algae resistance with less chlor if the CA is lower.  Sheeesh....I need a nap now....haha. 

Anyhow, let me know if you do decide to attack this a bit differently than you have been since I'm always curious and like feedback. 

Thanks man. :thumbsup:


----------



## HarryN (Aug 16, 2009)

A friend of mine in TX had a spa that used ozone instead of chlorine treatments - swore by it. Is there a reason why this is not used in pools? It seems like it would be a lot easier on people's eyes and clothing.

Thanks

HarryN


----------



## Beamhead (Aug 16, 2009)

Patriot, :thanks: I am going to liquid chlorine only next season and will copy n paste your instructions.
I wish you were closer to Cali, I'd hire your service.:twothumbs


----------



## Patriot (Aug 16, 2009)

Higher initial expense Harry, but it does have it's advantages. I only know of one person in the business who services a ozone pool. He's says that when it's working well it's great but when it's not working correctly diagnostics are expensive one the warranty of the equipment expires. Not very many people deal with the stuff so usually it mean calling out the manufacturer to fix or replace parts. I think there's something great to the technology but it's going to be a while before it really takes off here. If I was to build a pool today, I'd probably research it heavily for consideration, but I'd want to also go out into the field, so to speak, and get my hands on the equipment before I pulled the trigger.


----------



## tiktok 22 (Aug 16, 2009)

It can be used in pools. It is very effective but very unstable and generally doesn't stay in the water long. Chlorine is generally used in combination with ozone.


----------



## Patriot (Aug 16, 2009)

Beamhead said:


> Patriot, :thanks: I am going to liquid chlorine only next season and will copy n paste your instructions.
> I wish you were closer to Cali, I'd hire your service.:twothumbs






Very welcome Beamhead. The only downside to using liquid chlor exclusively is that you have to check it and add it more often. No less than twice per week. If you supplement your liquid chlor with light tablet use (which contains tri-chlor) it will help to keep your chlor level from spiking up and down. Even though tri-chlor tabs contain stabilizer, one or two tabs a week aren't going to hurt your CA much. 3-4 tabs a week, plus di-chlor or tri-chlor shock will cause your CA to do what it's doing now. Liquid chlor works fast and disappears more quickly than all other types, including Cal-hypo. A lot of Cal-hypo isn't good because it adds to the solids in the water. The chlor in cal-hypo is suspended in a calcium base which can eventually cloud the water, while also effecting alkalinity and PH. We sometimes refer to as "dirty chlorine." It's fine for occasional use, several times a year, but you don't want to feed the pool a stead diet of it. Instead, mixing your chlors tends to nullify the negative effects of overdosing with just one type. Using liquid chlor, balanced with a tablet or two, supplemented by occasional cal-hypo shock (only when needed) will give you a nice balanced mix.


----------



## Beamhead (Aug 16, 2009)

Copy n paste again, you should write and sell a "get rid of/fire your pool guy" book and sell it, I'd buy it.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 16, 2009)

tiktok 22 said:


> Not sure why you can't register, but the information is still sound.



They shut off all registrations. No one is able to register. No idea why. No explanation given. Log out, and try to register. Information may be sound, but if you needed clarification of one minor aspect of a point, you can't get it. I'd rather go somewhere where you can interact.


----------



## tiktok 22 (Aug 17, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> They shut off all registrations. No one is able to register. No idea why. No explanation given. Log out, and try to register. Information may be sound, but if you needed clarification of one minor aspect of a point, you can't get it. I'd rather go somewhere where you can interact.


Hmmmmm...It used to be a great forum. I have no idea why it went so downhill. This is where I learned to take care of a pool....


----------



## Beamhead (Aug 17, 2009)

I am uh.....AR when it comes to the clarity of my water, not bad for a n00b?
This is at 4 ft.




This is cropped from the full res.


----------



## Patriot (Sep 4, 2009)

What a gorgeous, clear, blue Beamhead! Nice work man. 




*EDIT: added......*

The swimming pool in post #11 was recently repaired due to a 30 foot long, nearly invisible crack in the bottom. It was drained for the repair and then refilled without any start-up chems by the repair people. I stopped by and added the chlorine that I had with me last week but was bringing other start up chems this week. Well, the pool turned bright green, just slightly darker than the edges in my Benefactor avatar.:green: I couldn't see the bottom at 4 feet. The customer is out of town and so the pool turned without anyone knowing. Unfortunately I didn't have my camera, but you guys would have been impressed with the hue. 

My brother stopped by with some liquid chlor and we put 2 gallons of that in, 5 lbs of granulated tri-chlor and 2 tablets just because it sounded like a good idea.:ironic: I'm going to stop by tomorrow morning to see how it's coming along but if all goes well we're expecting a 75% improvement in 24 hours. I'll bring my camera and share the results whether I succeed or fail. I sure hope this works. :sweat:


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 24, 2009)

Interesting this year when closing the pool, my pool guys used this "ProTeam Winterizing Kit" x 3 for my 20x40 pool with LoopLoc cover. They claim it dramatically improves the condition on opening. They charge $275 to close here.

I looked up their MSDS here and it's mostly a Borate buffer and Vitamin C.


----------



## tiktok 22 (Sep 24, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Interesting this year when closing the pool, my pool guys used this "ProTeam Winterizing Kit" x 3 for my 20x40 pool with LoopLoc cover. They claim it dramatically improves the condition on opening. They charge $275 to close here.
> 
> I looked up their MSDS here and it's mostly a Borate buffer and Vitamin C.



Hi Lux,

I usually use 20 mule team borax (Sodium tetraborate) for raising my PH.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 24, 2009)

This is a winter-pool closing formulation, not a pH adjustment product.

I just use whatever pH increase/decrease is sold at the local Walmart or discount hardware store during the year.


----------



## Beamhead (Jun 9, 2010)

Patriot said:


> Bring your CA down to 60...tops. Cut back your tab input a little so that your running chlor level down to a 5-6 constant. When and if the yellows show up, add liquid chlor or cal-hypo to spike the chlor up. This will greatly increase the chlor without increasing CA. No form of yellow is going to live in a 10-15ppm chlorinated pool. When the strain is gone in a few days, let your level fall back to 5-6. With very difficult strains, add and liquid algaecide like Pool Doctor Algaedyne. It's a dark brown/rusty color and works miracles.


 
OK with a cold May and now June I have had my pool open, the high CA/CYA finally caught up with me causing my TA to skyrocket so I drained the pool by 50% and got both the CA/CYA and TA within limits and intend to use only stabilized tabs for constant sanitation and a non chlorine weekly shock and pool perfect algaecide regularly. The non chlorine weekly shock is potassium peroxymonosulfate and I have been told regular use will not be a problem, your thoughts would be appreciated.
If any algae blooms appear I will treat them with dichlor if needed.
I was told not to use cal hypo because it could increase the Langelier Index ..............I really should have payed attention in chemistry class.  ....I have no clue why the last bit of text is blue....... :tinfoil:


----------



## HarryN (Jun 9, 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langelier_Saturation_Index

In other words, it sounds like the water is getting mineral saturated. If you have the equipment, you can lower the Ca and Mg content with either a water softener or ion exchange membrane. It can also be rented.

Think of it this way, when you add all of those tablets, you are adding Cl, but also a mineral (Ca, Mg, etc). The Cl is oxidizing the sulfates (from everything, air, bacteria, etc) and it is building up.

You can either swap out some of the water (assuming the replacement water is already soft / low mineral) or get rid of that mineral hardness with a membrane filter. Swimming in low mineral content water is pretty nice and can be clear as heck.


----------



## noddy43 (Jun 15, 2010)

There's alot of technical talk here in this thread and i am sure its very useful but in my layman terms of what i did with my pool was use a liquid Floc which is a aluminium sulfate solution that i think binds to the solids that make the pool cloudy, give it a bit of weight so it settles at the bottom of the pool and i vacuum straight to the sewage. You do lose a bit of water in the process so you have to refill a bit. Water is precious here in australia at the moment.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jun 16, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Interesting this year when closing the pool, my pool guys used this "ProTeam Winterizing Kit" x 3 for my 20x40 pool with LoopLoc cover. They claim it dramatically improves the condition on opening. They charge $275 to close here.
> 
> I looked up their MSDS here and it's mostly a Borate buffer and Vitamin C.




Just wanted to report that their "ProTeam Winterizing Kit" didn't do squat. With all the rain we had going through the Loop Loc, this was by far the worst year opening I have ever had. It looked like a black, toxic swamp.

First adjusted the pH up to 7.2 which took 17 pounds of pH Increase. Then added 32 gallons of Liquid Shock (8 boxes of 4), 3 bottles of concentrated Algaecide. Nothing registered on Chlorine testing. Moved to rapid dissolving tabs in two floating skimmer baskets. 25 pounds later, it began to clear enough, and register 6ppm of Chlorine to see and vacuum bottom to waste. 12 more pounds of quick desolve and minor pH adjustments, 5-6 bottles of flocculent, and 2 weeks after opening, it is crystal clear.

I opened it myself with a friend, but spent at least $300 on chemicals to get it clean.


----------



## HarryN (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi Lux,

When you have a lot of organics (plants, algae) in the water, the Cl just goes into trying to burn it up long before it starts killing microbes.

It might be worth your time to try some type of air flotation setup to help reduce the TOD (total oxygen demand) prior to dumping in so much shock treatment.

For 2 - 3 x what you will spend on chemicals this year, you might get close enough to a small ozone system sufficient to take some of that load off.


----------



## Kremer (Jun 24, 2010)

Is there any experience here with salt pools?


----------



## danneva (Aug 11, 2010)

Cleaning swimming pool water is not necessary if your pool water is regularly tested and the filters are regularly cleaned. If properly maintained, your pool does not need to have the pool water cleaned. If the water becomes murky or cloudy, try to find out the reason why the water is dirty and prevent it from happening again. 

Murky, cloudy or green water may be caused by: poor pool maintenance practices like improper vacuuming or brushing of the pool surface; lacking filtration time that should be done 8 to 12 hours every day; poor chemical maintenance practices including forgetting to shock your pool bi-weekly or weekly to eliminate the build-up of body oils and lotions that cannot be filtered and help kill the early outbreak of algae; early algae growth in your pool; poor water circulation; lack of exposure to sunlight that serves as an excellent natural oxidizer; frequent heavy rain pour; minimal use of the pool. 

Determine the cause of your dirty pool water before using water clarifying products. 

Proper sanitizing treatments are necessary to keep pool water clear. Chlorine is the most common form of sanitizer used in swimming pools. Chlorine kills out contaminates and keeps bacteria in check. A regular chlorine shock treatment boosts the chlorine levels of the pool temporarily to eliminate any cloudiness and murkiness in the pool water.


----------



## TedTheLed (Aug 11, 2010)

sand is a very effective filter.

http://www.shared-source-initiative.com/biosand_filter/biosand.html

this link is for a slow 'individual' sand filter for drinking rain water that comes off of house roofs,
but it could be expanded..


----------



## KC2IXE (Aug 11, 2010)

Patriot,
Not a pool owner - but have helped out - You say that Liquid Cl is the purest form of Cl - I will say I know of ONE pool that actually uses Cl GAS (and you can imagine the fun of dealing with that). It's a huge pool - as in, you can bring out portable dividers, and split into 4 olympic sized pools, with a large enough platform both ways to run meets, but I understand it hasn't been done in decades

Then again, I'm quite sure they have their water chemistry down at that level


----------



## danneva (Sep 14, 2010)

TedTheLed said:


> sand is a very effective filter.
> 
> .



The oldest and most popular method of filtration is sand. Sand swimming pool filters share two things in common: 1. when in the filtration mode, water always flows from top to bottom; 2. They all have some sort of lateral or under drain with slots to hold back sand while allowing clean, filtered water to pass through.


----------



## bobby32x (Jun 19, 2013)

My question is for patriot. I am a new home owner that came with a 32k gallon problem, I mean pool... I live in upstate NY and a few years ago, the property was flooded by tropical storm Irene, which dumped tons and tons of river water, silt and mud into the pool. The pool had a loop-loc cover on it at the time. The story I got from the locals said that the local fire department went around town pumping out and refilling all the pools (not sure on that). Anyway, I had opened my pool a little early because I was eager to get it going for my first time, when I turned my pump on and a god awful noise came from the pump. Upon investigating this, I quickly realized that the pump had been submerged in the flood waters and it was caked with mud and bee nests and what have you. I did a bunch of damage to the pump while trying to pull it apart (because it was old, rusty and brittle), so I decided a replacement pump couldn't hurt. I picked up an exact replacement for my 1hp Hayward superpump from AO Smith. After installing the pump and getting the pool circulating, the water went green instantly. I was also still having some slight issues with water flow coming from one of the returns. So my thought was to place the exhaust side of my shop vac to the return that wasn't working to see if I could free up whatever was stopping the water from coming out. While doing this, I was comically doused with mud from the outside of the cement pad that surrounds the pool. It literally shot the water straight out and up from the ground. After much digging, I found that the tee was capped off and a rubber stopper was placed in the jet to prevent leaking (shotty repair in my book) which confused me from the get go because the pool was closed with rubber stoppers in all the ports in the pool. Before I bought the house, there was no one living in it for 2 years. The previous owner pretty much left the house as is with heat for the winter. The pool sat closed for 2+ years. I know this story is jumping around a little but I think you should at least get a little back story and insight on what I have endured thus far. When I first pulled back the loop-loc, I could see the entire bottom. there was leaves and some debris on the bottom but, to me, a first time pool owner, it looked routine. Since the plumbing problem, I had to do a few handyman tweaks to stop that return from draining the pool of 1 foot per 12 hours. I maintain water levels now and only add water when I have been vacuuming to waste or doing a bunch of backwashing. I have added algaecide, I have added super chlorite (my local store version of chlorine) which is both used for regular maintenance and shocking purposes. I have tried to maintain a cya of 30 and a fc of 10 ppm for an extended time. I have killed off the bloom and then stirred up something yet again.

So, to this point in time, my best luck that I have had is this. I added 1 gallon of algaecide, 5 gallons of the super chlorite and I circulated this for 24 hours, I then put in a liter of flocculant (sink and swim) circulated this for 1 hour and shut the pump off. I let it sit for 12 hours before checking and the pool was crystal clear to the bottom, with a lot of debris on the bottom. I vacuumed this stuff to waste and ended up stirring up a lot of stuff in the process. I let the pool sit for another 12 hours and came back for another waste vacuuming session. After doing this, I realized that I had another problem.. The pool still looked dark in the deep end, which made me panic, so I put yet another gallon of algaecide in and I brought the shock levels back up to 10ppm. After the FC level was down to about 2 ppm, I had had enough. I went and bought goggles and went in to investigate (after checking all my levels TA, and so on) the bottom of the deep end and roughly 1 foot up the angled walls was not algae (in my opinion), it was stained from sitting for 2+ years with junk in the bottom. The shallow end has white scaling (again in my opinion) from a high ph and calcium saturation. The water here is street water, not well, and the hardness isn't typically high, but the pool had river water in it. Maybe it didnt get pumped out and refilled. I am not certain on this by any means. 

Anyway, so I stopped into my local pool store and they suggested that this crust is nothing more than a form of hard algae and that to get rid of it, I had to hit it hard with chemicals. So, they talked me into dumping 10 gallons of chlorine into the pool to kill off this algae as well as any floating algae (even though I had the pool pretty clear). I waited 24 hours after adding and tested the water by diluting the water in half and the color for the FC was still quadruple off the chart in my opinion. I asked if this could damage the pool and they said confidently "no". Well here it is 4 days later and the "algae" at the bottom is not coming off without a fight. My only working attempt was to have the vacuum hose with no attachment on it, and to use the vacuum hose to scrap vigorously across the bottom to lift the layer of stuff on the bottom. Also, the pool store suggested that I sweep regularly which I was doing less and less of since the water cleared but since they suggested it, I started again and now the water is cloudy white to grayish. 

This is a pic of the plumbing problem




This is a pic of the color stains from what I think is decomposed leaves
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh559/bobby32x/photo2.jpg

This is a pic of the scale/hard algae as suggested and what it looks like from my vacuum scrapping) 
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh559/bobby32x/photo1.jpg

Do you have any speculations? Do you have any suggestions as to turn this around? I feel like I am being pool store duped...

Please down size images to 800X800 pixels max.  See CPP Rule 3 Images.

Bill


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jun 22, 2013)

You may want to PM Patriot, as his last visit here was a while ago. My two cents...as a way to determine if that would respond to any disinfectant, you could intentionally pour some powdered shock so some of it lands noticeably on one of those brown areas, and see if the direct Clorine has any effect. If not, and it feels to your hand like a crusty material, I would guess there is some kind of light bonding/scaling attachment. Make sure you have a complete water sample checked for all the items. My local store does free water tests using a computerized system with individual test cartridges called *ClearCare Expert* that checks:
*Free Cl
Total Cl
Combined Cl
pH
Total Alkalinity
Calcium Hardness
Cyanuric Acid
Copper
Iron
Manganese
Nitrates
Total Dissolved Solids
Phosphates
Saturation Index
Endure (?)*​
You may be stuck either manually scrubbing by hand with something like those green 3M dish sponge scratch pads. I know they make similar things for the bottom of rotating floor cleaners, so you may be able to tie one on the bottom of your vaccum bottom and use that. Otherwise you may want to just bite the bullet and get a new liner. They need to be replaced every 10-12 years anyway. Tough problem you got!


Patriot, when you see this thread....I found a new trick this year for clearing cloudy pool. A cheap alternative to Floc. Since I have a sand filter, the local pool store gave me a large plastic bag of DE. Because I don't have a bottom drain, I put the vacuum hose head down in the bottom, upside down, throw a scoop of DE into the skimmer, and then switch intake to the vacuum hose. The DE catches all the finer suspended particles quite nicely and backwashes out.


----------



## bstrickler (Jun 22, 2013)

If it's cloudy like this, get a gallon or two of bleach and dump it in the pool, and run the pump for a day. Should clear it right up within a few days. We just fixed our pool that was cloudy after a good rain (they said it was only a 10% chance! And it hailed for a few minutes on top of that!)

http://images.homefellas.com/article-home/swimming-pools/cloudy-water.jpg

I don't remember why the bleach fixes the cloudiness, but I remember somebody saying they do that any time it gets cloudy, and it clears it right up. I'm not complaining, as it's only like a $3 fix (compared to the prices of some other chemicals, that's cheap)!


----------

