# Where are people getting their CNC machining done for custom parts?



## KillingTime (Oct 4, 2012)

Hi,

I'm looking for machine shop recommendations, either on shore or off shore to get some aluminum parts turned (2" max diamater).

These parts are for a maglite mod, but that's probably irrelevant.

I've tried machine shops in and around the city where I live in the UK, but the prices are so high for x30 parts that there's no way I could sell them even at cost in a place like CPF. I look at people like Britelumens, and the parts he sells, and wonder who\where is doing the work, as I'd struggle to buy the raw material for the price of a finished anodized product.

I think part of the problem for me, is that I'm based in the UK, and the cost of anything custom here is very high.

I've sent PMs to those who's work I like, but it would appear that such contact information is sensitive, as I've not had a reply.

Is there anyone on here that's using a machine shop that will turn alu parts in low quantities (x30), at a price they're happy with?

I'm not bothered about whether the part is copied 'after hours' by the same shop. This is for one or two runs of a custom BST thread.

Thanks.


----------



## gadget_lover (Oct 4, 2012)

The high cost is not so much that you are in the UK, but that you only need to have a few made. The largest expense in machining is the person's time. CNC takes advance planning and making a 3d software model. Manual machining takes careful setups and jigs. The programming or jigs can take many hours.

To get low prices you need to make enough parts that those labor intensive design and setup stages are spread over a lot of lights.

There are many threads on this board that explain why simple things like custom heat sinks cost so much more than you would think.

Daniel


----------



## KillingTime (Oct 4, 2012)

Hi Daniel,

I understand what you've said, but that still doesn't explain how britelumens can sell his mag heat sink for 22 USD, or H22A for 11 USD, in the numbers they're selling. It doesn't look like they're selling 100's either (although they might be using other forums) so I'm guessing they're either doing the work themselves, or they've found a machine shop that will offer volume pricing on very small runs. Even if I make the model, I still can't seem to get the raw material for less than the above costs....I have to be looking in the wrong places.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?203235-*****-P7-and-DHS-Heatsink-Part-2*****
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0-MAG-C-D-Deluxe-Heatsink-***Ready-to-ship***


----------



## Gtamazing (Oct 4, 2012)

Both of the links you posted are to sellers from Asia. Manufacturing is cheap in that part of the world. Labor is pennies on the dollar over there.


----------



## gadget_lover (Oct 4, 2012)

I think you are overpaying for your materials. I get my aluminum from a local metal supply business for a couple of dollars (US) per pound. That includes 2 inch diameter rod in 3 or 4 foot lengths. You will pay a lot more for pre cut one inch long pucks than you will for a 3 or 4 foot stick. 

Online, I find 2 inch Dia. Round Bar 6061-T6 Aluminum Round, 4 foot long In Stock $83.00 at http://www.metalsdepot.com. Divide that into 1 inch pucks and you are talking about $2 each.


BUT.... If I include the time that it takes me to cut that 4 foot bar into 1 inch pucks at 5 minutes each... that's a lot of my time just getting it to size.

Dan


----------



## KillingTime (Oct 5, 2012)

If Gtamazing is correct, then he's found out why - off shore manufacturing.

The price of raw material is set by the machine shop that offers to do the machining. They use their stock of raw materials to complete the order, and break the cost down on the invoice. I suppose I could send them alu that I've purchased elsewhere, but whether they'd accept is another matter.

I know one person that's using off shore manufacturing to sell UK products (LED cycle lights). I'll ask him where he get's his work done.

It's not that fact that I object to using on shore labor (which I would prefer), it's the price. I wouldn't be able to sell anything due to the high cost. The whole venture then just becomes academic.

Thanks for your replies.


----------



## gadget_lover (Oct 5, 2012)

The quickest way to reduce the price of a product is to use your own labor. Many people have made a good living by making things in their "Free time". The problem is that it's easy to invest 30 minutes of otherwise idle time (it's free, after all) in a product that sells for $10 (USD). By the time you add your time for shipping, accounting, taking orders and so forth you are making less than minimum wage. 

Good luck on your project. If you go off shore, remember to take quality control into account. A part that is 1% too big may not fit in the light, and 1% too small may rattle around like a kid's toy. Returning parts to an off shore and demanding replacements is not always possible. 

Daniel


----------



## 350xfire (Oct 5, 2012)

What exactly do you want machined?


----------



## precisionworks (Oct 5, 2012)

One of my long time customers moved his aluminum casting molds from the USA to some country that I cannot pronounce. Reject rate on the USA parts was under 1%, offshored parts were over 50%. Had me fabricate some pretty cool pressure testing jigs which added another thousand bucks to the cost of his parts. Found out it was better to take the junk parts to the scrapper down the road than to try & return them to godknowswhere. 



> Is there anyone on here that's using a machine shop that will turn alu parts in low quantities (x30), at a price they're happy with?


No.


----------



## sortafast (Oct 5, 2012)

the other thing I have run into when getting parts quoted, is that so people will just quote high because they don't really want the job. But when someone pays for it, they will not complain. I was getting stupid high quote from all the big shops around, but found a place super close to my house that was able to kick them out for way less than half of what the bigger shops wanted, and the parts were all spot on. It did take awhile since this was fill in work for them, but still. Its just a matter of finding a shop thats willing to work with you. But at 30 parts its going to be tricky. Another thing to do is to see if you can find some guy that has a couple cnc machines in his garage and just does stuff for himself or for a side business. Sometimes guys like that would help you out. IF all else fails, see if its something you can do on manual machines and just get yourself a manual machine and have at it (assuming you don't have one already). Thats the route I went instead of going to school for machining. Instead I just bought the machines and taught myself (although the awesome guys on this site and a few others helped a ton).


----------



## KillingTime (Oct 6, 2012)

Although doing the work by myself on a lathe is tempting, I realized a long time ago that there's no end of people who will take all the time you can give, if it's for free. And there's no value in that.

I hear people saying it can't be done, but people are doing it. Look at the sandwich shoppe. Perfect Tri-Star Sink PTS-2 C for 20 USD (single qty), and they're based in the USA.

What I was hoping for was a reply from someone who has done this and succeeded. It can be done, I just don't know how - yet.

I suspect those who know keep their contacts quiet to prevent competition. No one want's dead stock that they've paid up front for.

I'll keep looking, and if I find anyone, I'll let you know.


----------



## Th232 (Oct 6, 2012)

KillingTime said:


> I hear people saying it can't be done, but people are doing it. Look at the sandwich shoppe. Perfect Tri-Star Sink PTS-2 C for 20 USD (single qty), and they're based in the USA.



Note that based in the US doesn't mean manufactured in the US. Do you know the country of origin for that part?


----------



## precisionworks (Oct 6, 2012)

KillingTime said:


> What I was hoping for was a reply from someone who has done this and succeeded. It can be done, I just don't know how - yet.



Your request is a little more difficult than it seems but here's the step by step approach:


*Option #1*
Post your RFQ on http://www.mfg.com/sourcing-made-order-items At a minimum you'll need to attach a three view 2D print plus technical data (material specs, tolerances, quantity, time frame, etc.) to the RFQ. A 3D CAD file is better but not absolutely necessary unless the part is complex. You'll get decent price quotes from any number of shops in the Pacific Rim. 

If you don't feel you can generate the 2D prints & tech data package consider paying someone to do this. Depending on time required the cost should be no more than a few hundred dollars. Quite a few members here can produce the prints you need & help with the tech specs but don't expect anyone here (or elsewhere) to do this for $100. More likely $300-$600.

*Option #2
*Visit some of the PacRim manufacturers. Costs only a $499 registration fee plus your airfare to and from Shanghai. Click this link to register now: http://www.regonline.com/Register/C...72154&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Emailvision

When you return you'll have all the necessary info needed to select a low cost shop.

What can you expect from MFG.com?



4 nights stay at 5 star hotels
 
Meals
 
Translator services 
Factory visits 
Airport transfers 
Ground transportation 



> I suspect those who know keep their contacts quiet to prevent competition.


ROFLMAO!!! 

We are a secretive bunch who will not share the Location Of The Holy Grail (inexpensive machine work, highest quality, fast turn, etc.)

Truth is that you have to pick two of the three parameters listed above. You want inexpensive - Pacific Rim. Also need highest quality & quick turn ... isn't going to happen this side of Heaven.


----------



## mohanjude (Oct 6, 2012)

KillingTime said:


> Although doing the work by myself on a lathe is tempting, I realized a long time ago that there's no end of people who will take all the time you can give, if it's for free. And there's no value in that.
> 
> I hear people saying it can't be done, but people are doing it. Look at the sandwich shoppe. Perfect Tri-Star Sink PTS-2 C for 20 USD (single qty), and they're based in the USA.
> 
> ...




It can be done. Dont let people put you off. When i wanted to do custom jobs I was given the same $$$$ story. I was told that machining time costs $$$$$$ and that 3D / CAD files were needed and MOQ of 100 units were needed - otherwise the parts wiuld cost $1000000 to make you can add as many zeroes as you feel like to this figure that was quoted.

In reality if you can find a local machining shop with CNC facilities they will do it for you without any of the fuss. What is difficult is get their attention. They dont want to deal with a one off customer unless they can make a significant profit. If you can convince them that there is regular work things become more reasonable.

If you want 1-20 items they will slot it around their free time - you will have to wait around and be very patient. If you have a order of say 100 units then you can sign a contract and have it delivered on time. I found that machining doesn't have to be that expensive - having spents hours and hours of hanging around my local machinist I found that unit prices can be as low as £1 for a run of 1000 parts.

Frankly the way people quote figures on this forum for machining they should all be earning 7 figure salaries. You would think that you need to be a skilled neuro surgeon to do this job. Custom jobs are more expensive but you are right - a lot of it down to knowing someone in the trade. I am sorry to be so cynical but I hate people to be put off by this mysterious black art of machining and the drummed up mystery surrounding it. The reason things are cheaper in the far east is that people are more sensible about the reality of life.

I found out the hard way but once I got going I am very pleased that I didn't give up. Consider getting yourself a lathe and milling machine and you won't have to beg or pay anybody else exhorbitant fees.

Mohan


----------



## sortafast (Oct 6, 2012)

really, if you want to farm it out to a local shop, just ask around and keep asking all the shops you can find. Eventually you will find a shop willing to work with you and deliver the parts at a price you can deal with. Also having a realistic concept of what stuff will costs to produce also helps. From experience I have in the industry prior to starting the project I am on, I had realistic expectations on what I should expect certain parts to cost and thus was able to do what I wanted to do. I will say that running 30 parts is not going to be cheap per part, no matter how you slice it. If you compare to overseas production your view of costs will be really skewed. Materials are often subpar, labor is cheap and for 30units its wholly unrealistic.


----------



## KillingTime (Oct 6, 2012)

Thanks for your replies, I do appreciate the response.

I will let you all know what I've found, when I find it. This whole thing might be as simple as just emailing my drawings to as many shops as I can with a note that the fulfillment time can be months, just so long as it's cheap.

It is probably also down to who you know.

The bit above about keeping contacts secret isn't that absurd IMHO. I'm always asking other business owners who they use for this and that (especially IT support as it's expensive), and I find that the cheapest people who deliver quality are often semi retired with only x hours available every week, or people who moonlight using their day job expertise \ equipment. Not looking for the big bucks, just looking to stay comfortable doing 15 -20 hours a week. Business owners don't like giving them up because they know if I poach them, they'll stop working for someone else due to the hours restriction, and it could be them. 

I've still got some leads I can work. 

Thanks for the help.


----------



## sortafast (Oct 6, 2012)

KillingTime said:


> Thanks for your replies, I do appreciate the response.
> 
> I will let you all know what I've found, when I find it. This whole thing might be as simple as just emailing my drawings to as many shops as I can with a note that the fulfillment time can be months, just so long as it's cheap.
> 
> ...


with regards to machining, I will tell friends about the shops I use and will refer people that are not in competition with me to them. But with in the industry that I make my products for, I don't want anyone really knowing who or even some of the processes I use since our products are drastically undercutting the competition on retail price. I know from past experience that if you give away too much, someone will screw you over at some point.


----------



## 350xfire (Oct 6, 2012)

If you have a local community college with a machine shop program you may be able to get someone to help


----------



## precisionworks (Oct 7, 2012)

KillingTime said:


> This whole thing might be as simple as just emailing my drawings to as many shops as I can with a note that the fulfillment time can be months, just so long as it's cheap.


 Or you can have MFG.com post your RFQ where thousands of shops can look at it ...



> It is probably also down to who you know.


If making custom parts was that simple my titanium flashlight project would have been done six months ago. FWIW:

Best shop is 180 days backlogged. Pricing is very attractive for a part that he will never have time to make. Hard to get someone excited about making $1000 on my parts when most of his contracts are $10k-$100k.

Shop #2 is half a mile away but runs larger parts. Upfront tooling costs are slightly over $1000 and the per copy price is around $300 plus material costs. That isn't going to happen.

Shops #3 & #4 had the same response - no quote.

Shop #5 is running only 120 days back but pricing is higher than the item will sell at retail.

Shops #6 & on are PacRim responses from the web. Not going there.

I know the owners of shops #1 - #5. We see each other at local machinery auctions, sometimes have a beer together, and I know the name of the wife & children at each shop. Who you know is insignificant.


----------



## mohanjude (Oct 7, 2012)

precisionworks said:


> If making custom parts was that simple my titanium flashlight project would have been done six months ago. FWIW:
> 
> 
> 
> I know the owners of shops #1 - #5. We see each other at local machinery auctions, sometimes have a beer together, and I know the name of the wife & children at each shop. Who you know is insignificant.



You cannot be serious? Maybe those people who are failing to help you are not your friends.

Your local circumstances cannot apply to the rest of the world? Negative experience in your town cannot translate to the rest of the world.

I am sorry to hear that you couldn't pull off your flashlight project. Just because you couldn't pull off your flashlight project doesn't mean everybody else can't. Offering people obstacles on why something can't be done or difficult stifles this hobby and potential ingenuity.

I have learnt that in this world there are plenty of people who can get things done and there are just as many people who whine that things cannot be done. They want things on a plate. They seek perfection. Success is down to the individual and how they seek solutions. My own personal experience taught me that if you want something done don't be put off by people who tell you otherwise. Seek solutions rather than be drowned by people who whine and the nay Sayers. 

My local machinist has not only made me custom parts for SVM torches, he made extension tubes for the TCR1, machined parts for my RC models etc. He also put in me touch with people who can apply coatings etc - simply networking contacts. Companies such as Oerlakion Balzer coated Jeff's bezels for me. They normally don't deal with small time individuals. My local machinist is no angel - he infuriates me with constant I will do it next week routine but it gets done in a few weeks. I don't pay him six figure sums either.


----------



## gadget_lover (Oct 7, 2012)

The over all message of this thread is that you can get it fast, cheap and high quality, but not all three at once unless you are super lucky. Sometimes you will find a machinist who has no work at all in the queue, and who wants to keep his people busy. Other times you will find a competent hobbyist who just wants a challenge. Keep looking and you will eventually luck into someone, it just may take a long time. 

Fast, Cheap or Good. Pick any two.

Random thoughts follow:
One must not confuse "friends" with business contacts. A Friend will help you with a project, often asking only that you cover his costs. A business contact will do a job that has little profit that they might otherwise refuse. A business that will do work with no profit will not be in business long.

It's interesting that many people want to design a part that they will sell for $30, then are surprised when they can't find someone to make them for less than half that price. In essence, the business model is to resell someone else's work at a profit. That is a normal way to do business. Jewelers charge a 100% to 500% markup. It's just hard to do unless the demand for the part is really high.

If you are making parts for sale, then the idea of buying a small lathe and doing it yourself is actually a good idea. It may cost as much as having the parts made, but in the end you have the lathe and the experience. Like any other work, you are selling your time. As you get more proficient you will create fixtures to allow you to make new copies without doing any precision measuring or other time consuming setups. 

The other advantage of doing it yourself is that you can quickly determine whether a design will actually work properly. I know of a guy who spent thousands on a machine shop trying to get a prototype to work properly. They charge for doing what you design, not for making it work, so each iteration ate up more of his cash. In the end he wold have been better off spending the money on machinery. 

Daniel


----------



## kuksul08 (Oct 7, 2012)

Great info in here. OP, I have struggled with the same ideas as I work on projects. The cost of machining is huge and I've found that very simple parts often cost just as much as the complex ones because machining is all about the setup. With CNC machines, it's no more difficult to do rounded corners as it is square edges corners. If you can provide a DXF or solidworks file, it also makes things easier.

One option you can consider is First Cut, which is an online service that can deliver small quantities of parts for you for a prototype. The cost isn't too outrageous either. I've found their capabilities to be rather limited, but maybe 1/3 the cost of a local shop to do the work. If it's something simple that could be made in someone's garage, many people on forums will do it for cheap just to make a couple extra bucks. 

In the end, sometimes it's worth it to buy your own tools for working on prototypes and then if you get something designed and dialed in just right that you want to sell, you can have 100 or so of them made which brings the cost down to reasonable numbers.


----------



## precisionworks (Oct 9, 2012)

gadget_lover said:


> The over all message of this thread is that you can get it fast, cheap and high quality, but not all three at once unless you are super lucky. Sometimes you will find a machinist who has no work at all in the queue, and who wants to keep his people busy. Other times you will find a competent hobbyist who just wants a challenge. Keep looking and you will eventually luck into someone, it just may take a long time.
> 
> Fast, Cheap or Good. Pick any two.
> 
> ...



Well said Daniel. Nice summary.


----------



## RADDWURX (Dec 9, 2012)

Any machining needed let me know able to do one offs or small production 

thanks


----------



## PBear (Dec 29, 2012)

There is an alternative that hasn't been mentioned. DIY. The thought may be daunting, but there are places like http://www.techshop.ws/ts_detroit.html Techshop Detroit that allow you to use their machines for a very reasonable cost.


----------



## tino_ale (Jan 11, 2013)

Really interresting. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## rmteo (Mar 18, 2013)

http://www.firstcut.com/ Firstcut provides real CNC machined parts — FAST. Our subtractive rapid prototyping process combines traditional rapid prototyping with CNC machining to deliver the following advantages:

Speed — Get CNC machined parts at least as fast as you can get additive rapid prototypes.
Convenience — Firstcut brings the online quoting and ordering you expect from rapid prototyping to the CNC machining world.
Real material properties — Your parts are machined from real blocks of plastic and aluminum — not the "material like" materials used in additive rapid prototyping processes. 
Improved surface finishes — CNC machining eliminates the stair stepping inherent in the additive processes. *Prices from $95. Best for 1–10 parts. Made from real materials in 1–days.*


----------



## precisionworks (Mar 19, 2013)

Need one prototype in aluminum & ten more cut in Ti-6-4.


----------

