# Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/Torch



## mobile1 (Oct 29, 2004)

A couple of months ago I sent an email to the Guiness Book of Worldrecords people, asking them what the current records are for brightest handheld flashlight/torch.

In an earlier post I tried to find some people interested in building a record breaking light - however the interested seemed to be moderate.

However the Guiness people wrote back, saying that they currently don't have any records, but that they would be interested in opening up a new category!!!!

So I would like to come up with a definition how the world record for a handheld flashlight/torch can be measured.

How about: "1 hour sustainable lumens per cubic inch of flashlight"

Then how do we define bright, or how is it measured and who measures it (LED-museum?).

Let's all define these things to help the guiness book people establish a flashlight category... and give us all something to look forward to when modding and building flashlights...


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## cy (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Also the world's brightest small LED light as measured by cubic in per lumens should be considered.

one off Larry modded ARC AA body mated with Li14430's head, 3 stage, w/CR2 li-ion would be in the running. The Li14430 next to it is pretty small/bright too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## WildRice (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

And you know if they open up a flashlight section, more than likely it will be a CPF'er in the top ranks

Jeff /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Would also need sub-catagories ie

Smallest, brightest, LED, filiment, gas discharge...


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## evan9162 (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

How would they measure brightness? If it's just lux/f-c, then a laser pointer would beat everything. They should go for overall lumens, but you'd need an integrating sphere for that, which would be rather expensive.


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## HarryN (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Hi - I remember that post - looked very interesting. It might be harder to define the goal than to build.

From a practical viewpoint, the brightest are likely to be incans, and the ones with the most potential factory support are likely to be LED.

Perhaps we should have 2 catagories
- World's brightest LED Flashlight
- World's brightest Flashlight

OK - here are some ideas for dartboard specs just to open up the discussions.

Size Limit
Rather than artificially restrict the shape to our conventional thinking, perhaps we should set a "volume" standard. - This allows odd battery shapes, etc to be used as needed.
- Total volume, including reflector, power source, electronics, and wiring - based on submerging the light in water? not larger than a tube that is 100mm dia. x 300mm long (approx 4 inches x 12 inches) 
- I just picked this out of the air based on what I could hold in one hand.

Runtime
- Light measure averaged over a 60 minute period.

Harder part 
- measuring light output and color rendering index (because in general, the lower the CRI, the potentially brighter a light can become, at least in LEDs
- We may need to get NIST involved, but here is a starting point
- Measured in an integrating sphere
 - CRI of at least 50
- Measurements taken within the visible spectrum (not UV and IR), so nominally 450 - 700nm ?

Throw vs Flood - ok - someone else suggest.

Maybe 2 or 3 other catagories based on volumes 25 % as large and 5 % as large ?

Sounds fun - HarryN


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## Doug S (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

I like the "1 hour sustainable lumens per cubic inch of flashlight" as part of the requirement though they would probably prefer all metric units rather than mixed English/metric. Without the time consideration you could have some very high output flashlights by fitting flashbulbs into a light. I like lumens/unit volume and also lumens/unit mass. Having a defined short time like 1 hour is good. If you simply allowed integrated lumen-hours/unit volume it would advantage dim but long runtime LED lights due to efficiency gains at low drive levels.


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## evan9162 (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Purely based on lumens, you could probably get it with something like a CCFT tube.


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## MR Bulk (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

By putting _Too_ many parameters on it you might end up with a light that is Not the absolute brightest. For example we might end up with a winning light that is admittedly pretty bright, but since it has to sustain this brightness for an HOUR, several other TRULY bright lights may be capable of blowing it away for the first five or fifteen or twenty-five or forty-five minutes.

Also by putting a volume constraint on it, the brightest light may end up being just a reflector glued to a Luxeon soldered onto a battery; sure it would be small in volume, but how useful/durable could it be? Yes, it would degrade into a contest between lights that are purpose-built to win, yet not be practical in any other way such as carryability or bonafide utility, etc.

Lots of wriggly worms to herd from this can...


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## McGizmo (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Better decide on lux or lumens and if lumens are chosen, who is going to measure this?!?! Don't tell me you will go by the LED manufacturer's specs!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif I can put a luxeon in a green 7UP bottle and tout the mfg's luminous output all day! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif

By worlds brightest, the public will expect to see a bright beam in the sky (MegaRay) and not a photon that wins by virtue of the helium in its bladder that floats it above your hand! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif


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## liteglow (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

can`t we make a TOP 10 list of the SHARPEST\Brigthest led light ?

That will help out all the neewbie that wonder "what led light to buy" like me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

the top 10 worst list, i dont know is nessasery?


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## _mike_ (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

You said "hand-held"...some folks are pretty strong, so there might need to be a weight class. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## jashhash (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

IRemember reading in another post about a HID light that could produce 2,400 lumens. I think it was called a Gator Light or something like that. So if you plan on getting in the guinis books maybe you should consider using HID bulbs (which are like $100 per bulb). Over all this mod is going to cost you in maybe the $2,000 range to build such a bright flashlight. Also you might consider using Li-ion unprotected cells for your fuel source. You might be able to convert a 4D m*g light (or something like it) into a 12x aa li-ion for a 44.4 V 800mah power source. Perhaps you could run 3 HID bulbs in series for 30 minutes. If each bulb produces 2,400 lumens then maybe this thing could put out 7,000 lumens. Thats the equivalent brightness of 14 60watt bulbs.


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## mobile1 (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Mr Bulk brought up some valid points.... but I think it should be simple. How about:

"The lowest 1 hour sustainable lumens per cubic inch(or centimeter) of flashlight" 

By looking at the LOWEST lumens output in a 1 hour timeframe, would require the light to be regulated, making it more usefull. Now we would have to see whether the "brightest" light with this definition is not something odd like a tiny mini led and tiny battery... or the boeing-landing light with battery-backpack, as this hardly would count as a handheld light.

Sure side categories like "brightest light - no rules" for the boeing-landing-light and smallest flashlight would be fun. But for the main category we should find an easy definition.

If we take lowest-1h-sustainable-lumens-per-square-inch of flashlight, how would lights like, Arc4, Firefly, incand.torches stack up?

Regarding measurement, instead of measuring the output, how about if we measure the brightest spot, from a distance of 1 or 2 meters away (or whatever the most commen operating range is for a flashlight). This would also put some focus on the optics which would result in more usefull lights entering the competition (to prevent happening what Mr Bulk posted...)


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## oldtimer (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Isn't the brightest ever Ginseng's Aurora based on the Mag 6D body at over 10000 lumens?


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## jashhash (Oct 30, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Hmm... No I take back my original statement. THere are already 10 million candle power lights out there. Thats about 10,000 lumens (I think). The world record light should atleast double that at 20,000 lumens to hold any kind of sustainable record. Ofcourse even at that much output you have to realize that as technology improves theres a good chance that your world record would be passed up in a few years.


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## Lynx_Arc (Oct 30, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

just get arnold to hand hold a generator in one hand and a helicopter searchlight in the other.


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## mobile1 (Oct 30, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Does anyone have any links tot he 10,000 MAG 6D light, how about the Boeing-Landing-Light did we ever see a picture of that one? And whats the runtime of those lights?


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## HarryN (Oct 30, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

One way to ensure some level of usability and not just a "bare components" light, is to measure its volume by submerging the "entire light and related items" in water just before the test.

If we want to keep the catagory "flashlight", then it is reasonable to set a volume limit, and not just an unlimited class.

The reason for 3 volumes is to allow for "large", "medium" and "small" lights. Perhaps we can use the volume of some typical lights as starting points - Ideas:
- "small" - Surefire G2 Nitronol
- "medium" - 4 D mag
- "large" - A large, existing, commercial spotlight under 10 kg.

In theory, we could define a "worlds smallest light" catagory based on some slightly different definitions.

As far as light measurement and optics, (which are quite significant), we could set up some kind of measurements based on the size - example
- Area to be measured - round disc, 5 meters dia.
- Measure 9 points and average 
- Distance - 25 meters for a small light, 100 meters for a medium light, 1000 meters for a large light.

(yes, I just made these numbers up for further discussion)


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## Crosman451 (Oct 30, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Hey mobile1, here is a link to the "landing lamp" flashlight aka "The Sleeper"

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=628155&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1


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## cheesehead (Oct 30, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

I think the general public would expect it to light up the clouds. Thus, only short arcs would be in the running,... Maxabeam and Megaray. Otherwise a 1000 watt landing light with 5-6 6 volt SLAs would be the winner. But then, they need to define "portable". Great idea! And boy would it be cool to have that light! Keep up the good work and convince them to create this category. That would really be something! All of us would want to have that light.

cheese


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## ViReN (Oct 31, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Hi All,
I Beg to differ from some of the people. From My POV (Point of View), I think for a Guiness Book Record, we should set some standadrs. A True flashlight should have following

1) Standard burntime of 1 Hour _(this is a Minimum Requirement) see **** Below_
2) Maximum & Minimum Lumens during that Hour
3) Total Light Output (Lumens * Hours)
4) Weighing less than 1 or 10 KG ... (see Silverster S. Note below)
There should be various Categories based on Method of Light Generation
1) Electronic (Lasers & LED)
2) Hot Filament (Most of Incand's.. including Halogens, Xenons, Kriptons... etc..)
3) Flourescence (CCFL, CFL, EL, etc...)
4) Vapour (Mercury, Sodium etc...)
5) Arc Lamps (Metal Halides etc...)
6) Other Non Conventional Methods of light Generation

There should also be catetgory for Battery Type Used
1) Miniature Battries (Button Cells, Coin Cells etc...)Alkaline, Silver Oxide, Lithium Chemistries
2) Standard Batteries (Like AAA, AA, C, D) Including Non Rechargable Lithium Sizes & Rechargables
3) Lithium Batteries (CR123, CR2) Including Rechargables; Protected & Unprotected Li-ions
4) Lead Acid SLS's etc
5) Other Non Conventional Energy Sources (Like Mini Petrol Engines etc...)

In Addition to above mentioned things, the Hand Held Flashlight should be defined as a "Self Contained Integrated unit which has a Light Source & a Power Source. Light Source may be used along with an Integrated Optics for diversion / collimating light towards a direction"

In Some Cases, like Headlamps & Some Arc Lamps, we do have a seperate power source (these should be considered seperately) & should not be clubed as in above categories.

**** ... This is because, (i am sorry Mr Bulk, I beg to differ from your statement about "true Bright" light, please dont feel offended)... A Light can be VERY VERY BRIGHT (Max Lux Reading) for just a couple of minutes... or even seconds or microseconds (in older days, that used to be the case) thats why it was called as FLASHLIGHT.. but today with advent of new technologies & other gizmossss... I think we need to redefine some things. The defination of Flashlight itself /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif We need to device new Units for Light Measurement instead of just Lumens output. an Incand bulb.. will have 1000 Lumens .... & it throws 360 Degrees !!!... what will it be of any use ? (other than over all Area Lighting) consider same 1000 Lumens thrown at a single point (like Laser)... these things have a very specific purpose. Due to this we also need to have a category for classifying following
1) Longest Throw
2) Beam Angle & Side Spill Angle
3) Clubed with above 2 is total Lumens Output

Weight of flashlight should also be considered as parameter lets standardize it to 1 KG (maximum Limit) Everyone here is not *Silverster S*talone to hold a 100 KG Flashlight in ONE hand !!!


Oh I almost forgot... there should also be a category Most Gizmotic Flashlight... like all those Menu & Configuratibility features brightness & Darkness settings... flashling & strobe settings... moon & mooner modes... automatic lockings of switches & what not /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif .... 

P/G/MAG LIGHTS ARE BANNED, THEY ARE NO LONGER FLASHLIGHTS (i dont know what to call em... sorry)(Anything other than that is a Flashlight though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) ... I hope you guys understand. I am sorry folks, those who have modded P/GAGLIGHTS, Please stay away... we are talking Orignality here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Other than G/PAGLIGHT... all modders are Welcome /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif including sandwitches... bad boys.. good boys..max boys.. flexes... including n.. u .. p ... etc /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif (ok.. thats it, my knowledge is really limited in world of modding)

Spotlights etc will not fall in this category...

Thanks & Regards,
ViReN


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## WirlNet (Oct 31, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

That's a lot of subcatagories Viren. I think we are going to be lucky to actually manage the standards for 3 or 4 lights catagories. As an analogy, there are not 20 catagories for "world's tallest man". Now, among the CPF wizards, that many ways to define a light are fine, but I am not so sure with the general public.

In general, I agree with your comments that a "flashlight" has a self contained battery, lamp, and power source, but I think you would find that the "volume limit" and "water resistance sufficient to measure the volume" limit above would rapidly force people to a single container anyway.

I am glad you have noted that the real challenge here is going to be creating the standards. Creating competitive lights might actually be easier, and certainly more fun.

It would be incredibly biased of us if we limited participation of a person, company or product just because we did not like some personal aspect of them.


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## Lunal_Tic (Nov 1, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

How about keeping it simple. 

Define "flashlight" as portable light source: a small hand-held lamp usually powered by batteries (Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2004. © 1993-2003)

Then specify that it must fit in grandma's bedside drawer and she must be the one that holds/uses it for the desired time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

After that pick your poison: lux, lumen, candlepower whatever.


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## mobile1 (Nov 2, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Ok guys... thanks for the links and excellent comments... I will run this by the guiness book guy and see what his input is regarding this: I'll get back to you once I hear his feedback.


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## Quazar (Nov 2, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

I think there should be seperate categories for production and custom lights.


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## Crosman451 (Nov 3, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

I can't wait!! Bragging rights aside, it would be fun and intresting just to see flashlights of this magnitude competing for this title. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## mobile1 (Nov 5, 2004)

*Update*

Ok had an email exchange with Guiness.

The requirements they would suggest are:
---email exerpt---
My initial thoughts are to limit the maximum weight (including batteries), the minimum runtime and the type of power supply. Obviously the batteries must be commercially available dry cells. We don’t really want people incorporating small plutonium power plants into these! Also the flashlight itself must be commercially available and unmodified.
-end----------------

Taking these and the suggestions in this thread into consideration, my suggestion would be:

1) Maximum Weight: Any ideas?

2) Runtime: 1h (I think everyone agrees on that one so far)

3) Batteries: commercially available dry cells

4) Brightness measurement: brightest spot 1m distance (the lowest measurement during 1h runtime - requires regulation)

(This means now complicated dome measurments. I sugggest this measurement because perceived brightness is basically how much light can a flashlight project on one spot. The perceived brightness is the brightness of this one spot.
If we would require precise dome (light output) measurement, I think this would make it too complicated to compare lights.

5) Ranking: The title is being awarded to the light that is the brightest in relation to it's size (cubic centimeter of outer hull). This means the brightness measurement is divided by the square inches/centimeters. The flashlight with the highest number gets the Guiness-Book-World-Record Title.

6) Commercially available: The flashlight holds the record as long as any person has the ability to buy this light assembled and ready to go. A light is losing the title when it isn't commercially available anymore.

So lets imagine what a winner light could look like: Could be a larger incandescent light, or a smaller LED light.

I would prefer to have a weight rating to focus more on smaller lights (Max Mag2D maybe 3D size).

Ok let me know what you think about it...


PS: oh and Crosman I see what I can do to get the guys maybe open a category with non-commercially available-all out lights, maybe runtime 10min.... I think a shootout of insanely bright would be fun  - do you have any definitions for such a category?


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## Crosman451 (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: Update*

How about "Unlimited Class" anything goes!! Or "Custom Modified Class" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleye11.gif


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## cheesehead (Nov 7, 2004)

*Re: Update*

Commercially available,

Maxabeam-it has the tighest focus and thus, highest CP output, period. Megaray may be close, but it weighs a ton.

Then any of the 35 watt car HIDs, such as X990, KumKang, blah blah, etc will have the best lumen output and runtime. 

Incandescents can't compete. Even the 11 lbs Thor with a 100 watt bulb runs only 45 minutes tops and isn't as bright as the 35 watt HIDs. Eh, it seems like Guiness would like to keep it simple, so IMHO, the Maxabeam would be the winner. Can't beat a true 7 million CP beam.

cheese


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## NewBie (Nov 7, 2004)

*Re: Update*

Some of the older chemical flashlights might be in the running...


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## cheesehead (Nov 7, 2004)

*Re: Update*

Hey, you have to say more than that (sounds like you are holding back)! Eh, for overall output, I guess the propane lights would also be contenders (well WINNERS!), and although they are very inefficient, but they have a power source with the energy of a small bomb, so, good point.


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## sween1911 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: Update*

I think for brightness measurement, it should be "brightest and still fit the criteria for flashlight" with whatever weight and size and minimum burntime is in our definition of flashlight. Trying to calculate brightness/weight ratio would become splitting hairs. If it fits in the category or class that defines min/max weight/burntime whatever, then it's just a brightness measurement at a predetermined distance for a predetermined length of time. 

(Potentially, there could be a category for efficiency based on weight to brightness. Of course, there could also be a "voltage(or wattage or amperage or whatever) to brightness" category) 

But for the title of "brightest flashlight", it should be two things:

1) a flashlight (fits whatever criteria for flashlight we come up with.)

2) the brightest (based on some light measurement at predetermined distance in a predetermined condition for a predetermined amount of time)

my .02


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## HarryN (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: Update*

I am in favor of "classifications A, B, C" but I think the criteria should be volume based, not weight. Lumens per cm3 - too complicated.

I am not in favor of restricting it to commercial and unmodified - what is the point ?

Power source - That is the point of creativity. If you want to ban nuclear, fine, but why all the restrictions. If propane is better, or a mini fuel cell, etc, why limit it?

Brighness measurements at 1 meter in a dome metrology tool are almost useless for the goal. They will tell us Lumens, but certainly would not make the end result any more valuable to anyone. The pont of a light "design" is for a task. "A" size lights are for lighting up "A" size areas and distances. Same with "B" and "C" catagories.

Any light that holds the "large catagory" GBWR should be pretty impressive when lighting up a 10 meter dia. circle at 100 meters or it is useless.

OK, one more area of comment - The output measurement should be the integrated average light output over the one hour period, not the minimum. If the light falls below "1" Lumen for some part of the test, it gets a "1" for that time period in the integrated average.

This is the challenge of committees, hard to bring them together to one result.


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## mobile1 (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: Update*

Great that we finally get some discussion going here... I already thought I can come up with the definition myself.

Well the dry cell requirement and commercially available is not up for discussion - they just said thats what it needs to be.
I can kind of understand it as well, their book is read by families and kids etc... I think having records in their that were achieved with products that can commercially be bought is much more exciting then reading about a gas-powered light that was bright for an hour.

Average vs minimum light output - well here again, my vote would be minimum as its much more usefull if you have a regulated light vs a non regulated....

Right now, lets just bring up the different options we all should vote about:


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## HarryN (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: Update*

[ QUOTE ]
*mobile1 said:*
Great that we finally get some discussion going here... I already thought I can come up with the definition myself.

Well the dry cell requirement and commercially available is not up for discussion - they just said thats what it needs to be.
I can kind of understand it as well, their book is read by families and kids etc... I think having records in their that were achieved with products that can commercially be bought is much more exciting then reading about a gas-powered light that was bright for an hour.
___________________
HarryN - Hi - I read the note from GBWR a little differently, but my nature is to push the envelope a little. I hate to see us eliminate Pb-acid batteries right from the start. We will need to be careful here to define a "dry cell", as these are really "paste" cells. Perhaps we can define "dry cell" as "a chemical cell which can rotated in any direction without leakage while in use".

I have seen some nanoscale generators being developed at universities which could "burn" propane and put out enough electricity for a flashlight, also fuel cells. Really hate to take these off the list as these might be real contenders in the future.
____________

Average vs minimum light output - well here again, my vote would be minimum as its much more usefull if you have a regulated light vs a non regulated....

_____________________________
HarryN
I agree in general that we should promote regulated lights, but regulation is in the eyes of the beholder. The 1 hour time period will actually eliminate many lights that might otherwise be strong contenders. If a light happens to run perfectly for 58 minutes and 47 seconds, and then goes dead, I would prefer to not rate the light as a (0), but instead to count the last minute as (1) lumen or Lux, (whatever we are using), and use the integrated average output over time.

The same is true for lights where regulation is imperfect - even with 50 % drop off during a run.

The very nature of battery packs and how they operate will drive record seekers toward reasonable regulation. I am probably wrong, but I have never heard of a battery pack that provides more KWH when drawn down quickly then when drawn down slowly.
_________________________

Right now, lets just bring up the different options we all should vote about: 

[/ QUOTE ]


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## HarryN (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: Update*

[ QUOTE ]
*mobile1 said:*
Ok had an email exchange with Guiness.

The requirements they would suggest are:
---email exerpt---
My initial thoughts are to limit the maximum weight (including batteries), the minimum runtime and the type of power supply. Obviously the batteries must be commercially available dry cells. We don’t really want people incorporating small plutonium power plants into these! Also the flashlight itself must be commercially available and unmodified.
-end----------------

Taking these and the suggestions in this thread into consideration, my suggestion would be:

1) Maximum Weight: Any ideas?

________________

HarryN - yes - use volume, not weight. 

________________________


2) Runtime: 1h (I think everyone agrees on that one so far)

__________________
HarryN - Proposed Definition of runtime and brightness measurement:

Within 10 minutes prior to, and 10 minutes after the test, the ambient light will be measured, and this value subracted from the light measurements taken during the test.

The light output will be measured 2 x per second for the duration of the test, in a randomized timing pattern.

If the measurement is less than 1 (unit), then the measurement will be assumed to be 1.0 (unit)

The measurement will be taken at 9 locations, which represent an average reading over a disc 10 meters in diameter, at a distance of 100 meters. The measurement locations will be :

a) 1 point in the center 
b) 4 each points spaced 90 degrees at a distance 2.5 meters from the center of the disc.
C) 4 each points spaced 90 degrees at a distance 5 meters from the center of the disc.

The Total average value of the light measurement will be the arithmatic mean of the 7200 time periods x the 9 measurement points for a total of 64,800 data measurements.

Metrology
- Need to define a standardized sensor and a NIST traceable method of calibrating it. This is not so trivial, as the lights will clearly not have the same wavelength distribution.

__________________________
3) Batteries: commercially available dry cells

_________________

HarryN proposal

Dry cell definition. A cell is considered a "dry cell" if it does not allow escape of a fluid when turned in any direction, including upsidedown, either before or during use, regardless of its construction or materials used.

Commercially available Dry Cell Definition: A "Dry Cell" is considered "Commercially available" if it has been sold to at least three customrs prior to the GBWR test, and is available to be sold to "qualified users" even if there are restrictions on its availability to the general public.
_______

4) Brightness measurement: brightest spot 1m distance (the lowest measurement during 1h runtime - requires regulation)

(This means now complicated dome measurments. I sugggest this measurement because perceived brightness is basically how much light can a flashlight project on one spot. The perceived brightness is the brightness of this one spot.
If we would require precise dome (light output) measurement, I think this would make it too complicated to compare lights.

5) Ranking: The title is being awarded to the light that is the brightest in relation to it's size (cubic centimeter of outer hull). This means the brightness measurement is divided by the square inches/centimeters. The flashlight with the highest number gets the Guiness-Book-World-Record Title.

__________________________

HarryN - If we can only submit one "class", then I propose one based on the volume of a 6 D mag. This is about as large as one can call a "flashlight". Anything much larger might be considered something else.

I would still like to see 3 catagories, and call the 6 D size the "mid size" light"

Small to me is more like a 1 or 2 x 123, but to me, this light should be measured at 10 meters, not 100 meters.
_____________________________

6) Commercially available: The flashlight holds the record as long as any person has the ability to buy this light assembled and ready to go. A light is losing the title when it isn't commercially available anymore.

__________________

HarryN

I would apply the same definition of "commercial" to the light as noted above on the batteries.

_____________________


So lets imagine what a winner light could look like: Could be a larger incandescent light, or a smaller LED light.

I would prefer to have a weight rating to focus more on smaller lights (Max Mag2D maybe 3D size).

Ok let me know what you think about it...


PS: oh and Crosman I see what I can do to get the guys maybe open a category with non-commercially available-all out lights, maybe runtime 10min.... I think a shootout of insanely bright would be fun  - do you have any definitions for such a category? 

[/ QUOTE ]

______________

HarryN - ok, I am really trying to be helpful, but this is really your thread and the GBWR is your deal. My ideas are on the table for the darts - come on everyone, I know that none of like to write up rules around here, but defining the goal will be harder than building the light. 

I would really like Ginsing and the other moderators to make some more comments on the catagories. 

BTW, the reason for the randomized light measurement timing is to avoid having someone "flash" the sensor every 1/2 second.


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## CroMAGnet (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Update*

How about no flashing. --- Before we had LED flashights, I am guessing we had much larger bulkier incan lights? If that is the case then what happens when we get a new form of light yet to be invented? Might want to keep that in mind. I'm still a newb, so what do I know.

Anyway, I think GBWR is probably motivated by potential advertising revenue with 'commercial' flashlight catagories. Somehow, someway. I prefer it to be any 'flashlight'.

And define commercially available. Like the lights sold on CPF? Just list them available through one of our CPF community dealers?

I don't think they should limit it to commercial lights because if it's a world record then it's a world record. Who cares what the most powerful 'commercial' light is... That's just good advertising for a flashlight company. It just takes money. Do you think GM could build the FASTEST car in the world? YOU BET! they have a LOT of money, and if it made sense to build or win, they would do it. Just think if M*glyte decided they wanted to win. (it could actually help further flashlight technology if the GBWR was coveted.)

We just need to have a tight definition of a flashlight. Or as the English say... Torch. (not to mislead anyone with 'flash') 

I like the idea of incand catagory, LED catagory, HID etc
I like the idea of a weight limit (maybe not a size limit?) 
I like the idea of 1-hour (or 1/2 hour) benchmark to measure total lumen output. 

Can you see it now. All the modders make their lights and line up at yearly national GBWR flashlight events to point their light in a box and find out how their light stacks up to the competition for the world prize! Or how about highschool students the way they compete for oil company sponsored solar powered vehicles or robots these days. College students... I digress...

I think that new flashlight our boys are using over in IRAQ might be a contender or maybe a good benchmark because that is probably a good example of what can be done when you have the money to do it.

Sorry for the rant but I've been lurking on this thread since day one and hope that we can help make an *Inspirational* category for people everywhere.

Just my too-senz /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


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## HarryN (Dec 5, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Hi, after thinking about it some more, I have decided to agree with the catagories based on mass instead of my proposed volume basis.

I have a few suggestions for mass (weight) catagories - with the tested light having to weigh in at less than or equal to the class:
- 125 grams
- 250 grams
- 500 grams
- 1 kg
- 10 kg

Each light would be tested at 0.1 meters x weight class, so a 250 gram light would be tested at 0.1 x 250 = 25 meters. A 10,000 gram light (10 kg) would be tested at 1,000 meters, a reasonable distance for a light in this class.

For the test illumination object, I would like us to use a standard disc in the 3 - 5 meter diameter and some kind of averaging technique over the area. This is not so far from how many flashlights are focused now.

Please keep us up to date on responses from the GBWR people.

Thanks HarryN


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## mobile1 (Dec 8, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Well I dont want to botter the GBWR people too much. My idea is that we come up with a definition then pass it on to the GBWR people. So we should try to agree on some rules. 
Regarding commercially available, I think if you make the light available like many do here on cpf, I think this qualifies as commercially available. I don't think they get any revenues out of advertising. The way they finance themselves is by selling their book and through new records (it costs a couple hundred $ to register a record).
Maybe we should discuss this topic in a bay area meeting - then post the results again here so people can review them.


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## CroMAGnet (Dec 8, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Good idea on a face-to-face at the next bayarea CPF get together.


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## paulr (Dec 8, 2004)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

The 1 hour minimum runtime is a bogus restriction that eliminates lots of perfectly legitimate flashlights like the Surefire M6 HOLA. If there has to be a minimum runtime spec, it should be something like 5 minutes, not 1 hour.


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## CroMAGnet (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## andrewwynn (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

i agree with paul's comment.. i have some killer lights that output awesome light for 20 minutes, and that's more than adequate for real serious use.


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## HarryN (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Ok - here is my take on the 1 hour target. Any amount of run time will be an abitrary number, regardless of whether the number is 5 seconds or 5 hours.

The weight classes offer a way to deal with the run time issue. Basically, if you want to build a light for a particular weight class, you would need to have a package of light + batteries that runs the required minimum time. (whatever is chosen) From my perspective, there is plenty of room in the proposed weight classes (basically serial fractions of 1 Kg) to allow minor edits to lights and battery packs as needed for the required run times.

The equivalent but equal challenge is the measurement distance and target size for the beam. I think we will find these just as challenging to settle on.


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## Dr_Joe (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

I think the less restrictions we put on the category the more appealing it will be to Guiness. The reason is that the uninitiated public doesn't perceive the "wow" factor of a record if they can't understand the qualifiers. (for instance, "Fastest pitched baseball" (not fastest pitched baseball at sea level with relative humidity less than 40% and temp not greater than 76 F, baseball with no less than 274 stitches, etc.....)

To the general public a flashlight is something you can hold in your hand and makes light, PERIOD ! (fools, what do they know)

The more qualifiers we put on it, the more likely GBWR will reject them. 

Bragging rights could become a big deal for a manufacturer. I'm sure MaxaBeam, SureFire, Streamlight, Thor, etc... would love to be able to put Guiness World Record Holder on all their packages. 

Once we accept that with their resources, who could ever stop them from building a purpose built, record breaking photon cannon and putting it on their website ("commercially available" !) for $10,000. 

I think we need to find a way that true innovators (like we have here in our community) can compete on a level playing field. Otherwise what fun will it be to see an international competition of manufacturers for bragging rights with a bunch of purpose built and completely unattainable "flashlights" 

Summary, Keep It Simple, keep the field large, disqualify "ringers" (price restriction or categories maybe ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


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## HarryN (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

I am looking at this as a way for a variety of people, not just the largest companies, to have fun with this. The assignment of weight catagories and specifications to the testing will allow more, not less people to compete. 

There is no doubt that the winners will in fact be purpose built lights (just like any record holding car or boat), but that does not mean that individuals or small groups will not be able to compete. A lot of cost is in engineering, not just in parts cost. CPF offers a way for a hobby group to team up and pool essentially free engineering resourcs.

I am entirely confident that a small team with the right attitude can compete sucessfully in all of the 500 gram and smaller catagories, and "might" compete in the 1000 gram catagory. There are very few light engine and power sources which cannot be obtained by a determined hobby group.

Believe it or not, the hardest part is going to be achieving agreement on the specs, not the 1 hour run time, target size, or target distance. Those will be the fun aspects of the projects.

Price - that could make for an interesting way to put a lid on the catagories. If we include "SF Beast" as a candidate light, then that price point is around US$ 3 K. Smaller lights will not necessarily be cheaper in small qty, but it would be nice of course. I suppose we could put a US$ 5 K limit on the price for any catagory but would that really solve the problem ?


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## CroMAGnet (Jun 27, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Has this went anywhere? Any updates from GBWR?


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## mobile1 (Jun 27, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Hi there, nice animated gif there  Do you have a larger resolution version of that?

Regarding your question, well even though I started this thread, I didnt have the time (& motivation I guess) to come up with categories, lead the discussion until we all agree on a framework, then discuss it with the GBWR associate. 

However I there is anyone else out there willing to do this, I can pass on the contact information of this person.


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## andrewwynn (Jun 27, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Well.. i'm on the way to make said light i think... runtime is currently estimated at about 3.5 minutes... but starting out at about 80,000 lumens.. it will be totally self-contained.. no back-pack battery.. aiming for a size of about 20" diameter and 20" long... I'm not sure if the reflector is elliptical or parabolic yet.. which will determine if i have 300million lux at 1degree or 100,000 lux at a 45deg beam angle, but for the purpose of my 'technology demonstration'.. i will accept either... the latter would be a lot more useful actually. 

I agree with the basic idea that too many restrictions really make it hard to be 'fun'... I think.. that if you can pull off a portable light, that is actually hand-held.. self-contained batteries... does it matter if it runs for a minute or 10? 

It becomes difficult to decide what to call it (searchlight/flashlight).. when it's 20" in diameter.. but they may already have categories for such things.

To me.. the key is repeatability and portability.. can you recharge the bats and use it over and over, or does it consume itself, etc... in any event.. what i have cooked up is a lot bigger than what was originally thought of in the context of this thread, but may have a place in history nonetheless.

-awr


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## yaesumofo (Jun 27, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Each light should be tested 3 times. each light should be measured for lux at 10 meters 4 times during each run. these numbers should be averaged together for a total average output for each light.
One point here is that as a flashlight it should be repeatable. 1 meter is too close and sensor's could be overwhelmed.
there should be classes. like spotlight THOR COSTC HID (the winner). off the shelf. custom and micro custom where the measurement distance is set to 1 meter
My 2 cents.
I feel strongly about the multiple runs. That is how they do speed runs at Bonneville salt flats 2 runs within an hour.
it is also how they did the race to space prize 2 runs within a week. we do 4 runs within a 6 hour period 1 hour each. But if a light can put out 4 x as much light but only for 15 minutes he shouldn't be out of the running.
1 hour run times are necessary for a "Brightest" flashlight record.
Yaesumofo


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## andrewwynn (Jun 27, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

i totally agree on the multiple runs. 

so.. you are saying.. 1hr is a good restriction for flashlights, but not 'spotlight'? what's the thor? 

i won't be able to get a meter reading at 10 meters that will be far too close, it could be 30,000 lux at 100M.

-awr


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## VidPro (Jun 28, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

""We don’t really want people incorporating small plutonium power plants into these!""

lol, what a waste, ruins the whole thing.
and Commertially available? that doesnt make ANY sence whatsoever.
was the 7'8" giant comertially available?
is the person who hopped for 75 days straight commertial?
is the guy who drove 15,000MPH on the ground, available as a product for the street?

oh hey mabey that is Ripleys instead 

the world records in guenesses, should be breakable DAILY, even if that means that its broken with a plutonium flashlight.
mabey the parameter is just
SAFE
USABLE
TESTABLE
OPERATIONAL
not , RESTRICTED :-(

If its the Guinesses book of Sponcor corporations /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif, then WHO is going to BUY the thing, to find out what records can be made and broken again.


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## HarryN (Jun 29, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

[ QUOTE ]
*yaesumofo said:*
Each light should be tested 3 times. each light should be measured for lux at 10 meters 4 times during each run. these numbers should be averaged together for a total average output for each light.

___

In general, I agree with your concept, but let me give an example where it could cause the project to be kind of rigged. Suppose I know in advance the "times" during the run when the measurement would be taken - I could program the light to be running at some lower level the rest of the time, then ramp it up to max power for the "measurements".

Taking this to a limit, if I know the response time of the meter, I can flash the light at a frequency which fools the meter.

Before you say "no flashing", guess what - a whole bunch of regulated lights, both incan and LED, are essentially "flashed" on and off all the time.

Somehow, the measurement technique needs to be a somewhat continuous integrated measurement over time, and over the space dimension.

Andrew points out exactly what I was talking about above - a high powered light needs to be measured at a long distance. Andrew, would you consider doing a quick calculation of the guesstimated performance of your light using the distance / weight formula I proposed earlier. I am very curious of how this would work out.


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## mobile1 (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

How about letting it run for an hour and taking the LOWEST light level during this period of time. Regarding commercially available, we would have to talk to Guiness... maybe they would take SAVE instead.


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## andrewwynn (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

harry, not sure what you mean by the distance/weight formula.. clue me in and i'll give it a go. 

My RT4 outputs 9000 lux.. it'll do it for about 40-45 minutes... not sure where the 'hour' comes from... do they already have some restriction? yes of coruse.. the RT3000 i don't think would ever be called a 'flashlight' however.. portable.. hand-held spotlight.. yes.. 300,000,000 lux would not be out-of-reach.. 40,000 lumens is the latest estimate of light output.

-awr


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## HarryN (Jul 1, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

[ QUOTE ]
*HarryN said:*
Hi, after thinking about it some more, I have decided to agree with the catagories based on mass instead of my proposed volume basis.

I have a few suggestions for mass (weight) catagories - with the tested light having to weigh in at less than or equal to the class:
- 125 grams
- 250 grams
- 500 grams
- 1 kg
- 10 kg

Each light would be tested at 0.1 meters x weight class, so a 250 gram light would be tested at 0.1 x 250 = 25 meters. A 10,000 gram light (10 kg) would be tested at 1,000 meters, a reasonable distance for a light in this class.

For the test illumination object, I would like us to use a standard disc in the 3 - 5 meter diameter and some kind of averaging technique over the area. This is not so far from how many flashlights are focused now.

Please keep us up to date on responses from the GBWR people.

Thanks HarryN 

[/ QUOTE ]


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## mobile1 (Jul 1, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

I like the size to distance rating. However this means that the optics/reflector will be almost more important then the bulp/LED. Using weight rather then volume means that someone could take a large but thin reflector (some type of foil) that is focusing the light exactly on one spot. So we might end up with a 250gram light with a 5ft reflector. Or something bulky and unusable no one had in mind when imagining a 250g light.
I personally don't care about weight, only size. The drawback is it's hard to imagine volume, while weight is something everyone gets an idea of.


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## andrewwynn (Jul 1, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

this weight class makes perfect sense.. and i believe at a KM.. the oscarbeam will probably have between 50 and 300 lux, so it actually makes perfect sense.. also at a km.. it coincidentally is a factor of 1Milllion so the reading you take in lux ends up being 'megalux'. I think i can make the oscarbeam in an under 10kg weight class, which is very reasonable weight for the size and power of the light in the works. I think that maybe the GBWR guys will be able to figure out how to classifiy the light to be able to include it in their book... i'm well underway to make AFAIK the brightest hand-held light in the world.. it would be nice notoriety to have it in the book.


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## HarryN (Jul 1, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Andrew - do you really think my proposal and how it worked out at 1 KM was a conincidence ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## andrewwynn (Jul 1, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

well, now that you mention it... i'd be pretty sure you knew before you proposed it... it's really dang nice though.. 'megalux' is a nice scale for lights in this magnitude.

-awr


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## mobile1 (Jul 2, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

LOL, well the GBWR people told us that we need to come up with a standard....


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## andrewwynn (Jul 2, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Which i guess.. we can do that... but how about this thought-process... 

1) i build the brightest flashlight in the world. (80% done with the design already)
2) figure out a fair envelope of constraints within which it falls
3) write it up official-like
4) submit to the GBWR guys 

-awr


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## mobile1 (Jul 2, 2005)

*Re: Guiness Book - Brightest Handheld Flashlight/T*

Well Andrew if you do it in this order, here is what happens.

You wait 6 month, then they tell you that they don't have a category for flashlights, but that they would like to start one. Then they give you a contact person who will then tell you to suggest a standard. I can shorten this process by 6+ months by giving to you or whoever has the time to coordinate this, the contact information to work out the categories and measurement.

Once the categories are in place people can submit their events where those lights will be tested.I think if CPF could take an official stand in this that would be fair.

At the end it takes time to work out a standard most would agree on, it takes time to create a measurment standard.

Even though I started this thread at this point my flashlight activity is focused more on making my designed lights a reality.

So let me know who would be interested in coordinating this from an official cpf point of view.


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