# HID Bulb Question



## 350xfire (Mar 3, 2010)

Guys:
I am playing around with a couple of HID automotive kits and need to know one thing:
one of the kits is 35W
the other one is 50W

I was wondering if the bulbs are 35W and 50W or if the bulbs are interchangeable from 35W to 55W ballasts? i.e. is the ballast what makes the kit 35/50W or is it the bulb or both?

Thanks


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## Mik (Mar 3, 2010)

It kinda depends on what you are looking at. The Chinese kits will run the same bulb on both kits, and the ballast will just drive the bulb harder in the higher wattage kit. 

The real lighting companies (like Philips) have come out with D2 style bulbs that are meant for 50w, and proper ballasts to drive them.


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## Patriot (Mar 4, 2010)

Since the ballasts, if generic Asian, are likely less that 55W, you'll get the best output performance from the 35W bulb. The performance of a true 50W bulb probably won't be very impressive if driven by a 40-45W ballast.


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## 350xfire (Mar 4, 2010)

Patriot said:


> Since the ballasts, if generic Asian, are likely less that 55W, you'll get the best output performance from the 35W bulb. The performance of a true 50W bulb probably won't be very impressive if driven by a 40-45W ballast.


 
Thanks guys. They are from China. The 35W is a regular-sized ballast. The 50W is a slim ballast.


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## bshanahan14rulz (Mar 4, 2010)

both use generic china 35W burners. Use name-brand bulbs if you are driving them at 55W in a heat-sensiive application


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## 350xfire (Mar 4, 2010)

Thanks for all the help guys. I just fired the 35W with the 50W ballast and it is noticeably brighter. These will be used on a set of video dive lights. Another question:
The slim ballast has a black potted box attached to it that feeds the light bulb. I assume that this is how they can build a "slim" ballast. Take some of the components of the full size ballast and incorporate them in a separate box... The question is:
Is that part removeable? Is that some kind of relay for automotive use that for my dive light use I can remove? This will help me out a lot in space use if I can remove it.

Thanks again

And oh, another point... according to my power supply the 35W sucks about 4 amps at 11.1 v (44.4w), the 50W sucks 4.5 at 11.1v (49.95W). The slim ballast 50W did run about $100 vs about $40 for the 35W.


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## XeRay (Mar 4, 2010)

350xfire said:


> Thanks for all the help guys. I just fired the 35W with the 50W ballast and it is noticeably brighter. These will be used on a set of video dive lights. Another question:
> The slim ballast has a black potted box attached to it that feeds the light bulb. I assume that this is how they can build a "slim" ballast. Take some of the components of the full size ballast and incorporate them in a separate box... The question is:
> Is that part removeable? Is that some kind of relay for automotive use that for my dive light use I can remove? This will help me out a lot in space use if I can remove it?


 
Nope, that is the igniter, cant do it without that.


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## 350xfire (Mar 4, 2010)

XeRay said:


> Nope, that is the igniter, cant do it without that.


 
OK, that's what I thought I got to looking at it and it seemed like a high power device, not just a relay...

Last question: Do these ballasts mind running is series or parallel? I was thinking about doing a big battery canister and stuffing bothe ballasts in it with one switch and battery pack.


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## Mik (Mar 5, 2010)

Just keep in mind that when a HID ballast first fires the bulb, the current draw will be higher than the hot/constant current draw. When I tested HID ballasts years ago, I was seeing around a 10A spike when you first turn them on, steadily reducing to around 3.5A constant (14.4vdc). If your batteries are not strong enough to give 20A+, you will get a heavy voltage sag or failure when you fire two ballasts at a time. Most ballasts have a specific voltage operating range, obviously if you fall below it - they will not fire. 

Also consider that you will need a single switch that can handle over a 20A pulse current. Since your voltage supply is lower, you will draw more amperage. I don't know if you will find a switch that will fit your needs, so you may want to use the switch only to activate a high current relay that will feed both ballasts. Obviously the inputs need to be run in P. Be sure to properly fuse. 

Do not run the ballast outputs in S or P. They start a cold bulb at around 18Kv and cannot (afaik) work together with another ballast in any situation at all.


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## 350xfire (Mar 5, 2010)

Mik said:


> Just keep in mind that when a HID ballast first fires the bulb, the current draw will be higher than the hot/constant current draw. When I tested HID ballasts years ago, I was seeing around a 10A spike when you first turn them on, steadily reducing to around 3.5A constant (14.4vdc). If your batteries are not strong enough to give 20A+, you will get a heavy voltage sag or failure when you fire two ballasts at a time. Most ballasts have a specific voltage operating range, obviously if you fall below it - they will not fire.
> 
> Also consider that you will need a single switch that can handle over a 20A pulse current. Since your voltage supply is lower, you will draw more amperage. I don't know if you will find a switch that will fit your needs, so you may want to use the switch only to activate a high current relay that will feed both ballasts. Obviously the inputs need to be run in P. Be sure to properly fuse.
> 
> Do not run the ballast outputs in S or P. They start a cold bulb at around 18Kv and cannot (afaik) work together with another ballast in any situation at all.


 
Good points I had not thought about!
Thanks


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## hidextra.com (Mar 5, 2010)

Hi,

We are a HID manufacuturer and I can help you answer your question,
the bulb is definitely interchangeable but see below for the 35W and 55w difference
1.) 55w is only 15% brighter than the 33w
2.) because of this brightness, it burns out the bulb and the ballast out faster
3.) 55w is 2-3 times more expensive than the 35w



350xfire said:


> Guys:
> I am playing around with a couple of HID automotive kits and need to know one thing:
> one of the kits is 35W
> the other one is 50W
> ...


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## 350xfire (Mar 5, 2010)

hidextra.com said:


> Hi,
> 
> We are a HID manufacuturer and I can help you answer your question,
> the bulb is definitely interchangeable but see below for the 35W and 55w difference
> ...


 
Thanks


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## XeRay (Mar 5, 2010)

hidextra.com said:


> Hi,
> 
> We are a HID manufacuturer and I can help you answer your question,
> the bulb is definitely interchangeable but see below for the 35W and 55w difference
> ...


 
Those numbers are very "telling" and interesting.

True 50 watt (to the bulb) is 60%-75% more light (lumens depending on the bulb used) not 15%. Your 55 watt is input watts not output and only 40-45 watts to the bulb. Also the Asian kit bulbs do not perform well either.

Using Philips, Osram or GE HID bulbs, 35 watts (true) to the bulb compared to 50 watts (true) to the bulb is 3200 lumens vs 5100-5700. The 5700 lumens is using Philips DL50/740, the 5300 is using the DL50 (Fat Boy). A 50 watts (to the bulb) over driven GE, Philips or Osram 35 watt bulb gets about 5100-5200 Lumens about 60% more lumens than a true 35 watt input.


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## hidextra.com (Mar 5, 2010)

most ballasts come in 55w, not 50w, but in certain senses lumens occur about 3200 down to 2800, the higher the Kelvin color the lower the Brightness (Lumen)

Also for those looking out for HIDs, all aftermarket HID companies DO NOT make 4300K (This number is patented) and therefore the closest color to the 4300K is 5000K that most aftermarket companies sell.

5000K is slightly lower in lumen about maybe 50-100 lumens dimmer than stock 4300K HIDs but not very visible by light. 

Also please understand that since HIDs are in general 2-3 times brighter than Halogens, it is really not necessary to have 5000lumens of lights shattering in front of you to blind people and catch unwanted distractions :thumbsup:



XeRay said:


> Those numbers are very "telling" and interesting.
> 
> True 50 watt (to the bulb) is 60%-75% more light (lumens depending on the bulb used) not 15%. Your 55 watt is input watts not output and only 40-45 watts to the bulb. Also the Asian kit bulbs do not perform well either.
> 
> Using Philips, Osram or GE HID bulbs, 35 watts (true) to the bulb compared to 50 watts (true) to the bulb is 3200 lumens vs 5100-5700. The 5700 lumens is using Philips DL50/740, the 5300 is using the DL50 (Fat Boy). A 50 watts (to the bulb) over driven GE, Philips or Osram 35 watt bulb gets about 5100-5200 Lumens about 60% more lumens than a true 35 watt input.


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## Patriot (Mar 5, 2010)

Thanks Dan. :thumbsup:


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## XeRay (Mar 6, 2010)

hidextra.com said:


> most ballasts come in 55w, not 50w, but in certain senses lumens occur about 3200 down to 2800, the higher the Kelvin color the lower the Brightness (Lumen)
> 
> Also for those looking out for HIDs, all aftermarket HID companies DO NOT make 4300K (This number is patented) and therefore the closest color to the 4300K is 5000K that most aftermarket companies sell.
> 
> ...


 
Most cheap Asian ballasts come in "55 watt not 50 watt". None of the Asian ballasts are 50 or 55 watt output. This is marketing BS because the industry standard is output wattage rating not input. Output is what is relevant especially because of poor efficiency numbers on all or most Asian (Chinese) ballasts. The Asians all rate their higher wattage ballasts using input. Even their 35 watt (if true 35w) would be called 42 or 43 watt using this same approach. The industry standard for HID is using output wattage for the basis of rating a ballast, not input as all the Asians have been doing for about 4 years now.

5000K from a reputable source (Philips is a good example) is about 10-15% less light than the same bulb type at 4200-4300K. That is 300 to 500 lumens less. As for cheap Asian bulbs who knows what the difference would be???

Numbers cannot be patented only concepts and ideas. There is no patent on the output of 4200-4300K that is BS. Philips Osram and GE MAY have patents on the fill (blend of chemicals) to get that color but other blends (not likely as good) will get the same color.

This forum is not for car people very much, in this group more is almost always better. These guys always are looking for more light except when they want to maximize runtime (battery life).

You need to study up on your facts before you "spout off" here. Quite a number of people here (CPF) apparently know much more than you do about HID. You are likely just "parroting" what others have told you. You need to get the FACTS or you need to find a new career. Looks like you are located in Chesterbrook, PA nice location.


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## 350xfire (Mar 6, 2010)

Guys:
Please lets not turn this into a pissing contest as to who is right or wrong. My goal with these kits is to make a pretty cheap underwater video light set up. Some of the Brightstar bulb/ballasts (35W) are $170 each with a car HID kit I can get 2 35W/50W bulbs (whatever the actual rating is doesn't really matter, these things are f'ing bright anyway) for $50-$100.

I am planning on building a delrin canister(s) for the batteries and ballast and using probably 18 18650 cells to drive each bulb (3S/6P configuration).

Now for my next challenge: How to mount the bulb in an aluminum housing without having to machine a bunch of parts to keep it in place?

Thanks for the help so far!

And yes, so far it looks like the Asian ballasts are rated on input power since there is no way input will equal output due to system losses, etc.


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## Morepower! (Mar 7, 2010)

hidextra.com said:


> Hi,
> 
> We are a HID manufacuturer and I can help you answer your question,
> the bulb is definitely interchangeable but see below for the 35W and 55w difference
> ...


 
Hi hidextra.com you mention ballasts burning out faster, what is it that usually fails in a ballast ? Would it be the spark gap ?


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## KLowD9x (Mar 7, 2010)

I wouldn't go so far as to say that ALL Chinese made HID kits are under driving the bulbs in such a way.

I have several kits from DDMTuning.com and they are probably the best kits I have used.

I have used the cheap magnetic ballast that can be found everywhere on ebay, rated at 35 watts. It was horrible, the bulb was so underpowered that it was always blue. The light was only slightly brighter than the stock halogen bulbs.

When I switched to the slim digital kit from DDM, the light was white (Bulbs on both kits were rated at 4500K), the arc was perfectly stable (the arc would undulate in the capsule with the larger lower output ballast, causing flickering) and current draw by the ballast seemed to change in relation to what power was required to keep the bulb current constant (where as the magnetic ballast was limited to right at 35 watts input, but the bulb current was all over the place). Also, the cheap magnetic ballast lasted a whopping two months before letting the smoke out.

I have installed their slim digital 55 watt ballast in a flashlight and it is notably brighter than the 35 watt ballast. Power draw is just over 55 watts with a claimed ballast efficiency of 97%, I am calculating a bulb wattage of right at 55 watts.

Just because most manufacturers use the same components, don't trash them all because there are some good bits out there floating around.

(Yes, I understand that retrofits are generally frowned upon and no matter what I say will change your mind on this, so flame away!)


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## Mik (Mar 7, 2010)

350xfire said:


> Now for my next challenge: How to mount the bulb in an aluminum housing without having to machine a bunch of parts to keep it in place?


 
You can do what a lot of us have been doing for a long time.. find a local body shop and ask them if you can buy one or two of the xenon headlights that have been smashed in an accident from a vehicle in the shop. Many shops will throw them away, so nearly a useless item to them. You can salvage useable parts from these even after a wreck - useful parts depend on the extent of the damage, but many times you will get good ballasts, HID bulbs, reflectors/projectors, bulb mounts, wires & connectors. This is a good way to help your project along and stay on a slim budget. The HID components that you get from most OEM's are superior quality to the Chinese stuff as well. :thumbsup:


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## BVH (Mar 8, 2010)

KLowD9x said:


> I have installed their slim digital 55 watt ballast in a flashlight and it is notably brighter than the 35 watt ballast. Power draw is just over 55 watts with a claimed ballast efficiency of 97%, I am calculating a bulb wattage of right at 55 watts.



In my humble opinion, there are no generally available automotive HID ballasts producing anywhere near 97% efficiency. I'd love to be wrong, though! That would mean almost no heat is produced which would be great for us modders working in very tight spaces. Did you measure input and output Amps and Volts to verify their claim?


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## KLowD9x (Mar 8, 2010)

BVH said:


> In my humble opinion, there are no generally available automotive HID ballasts producing anywhere near 97% efficiency. I'd love to be wrong, though! That would mean almost no heat is produced which would be great for us modders working in very tight spaces. Did you measure input and output Amps and Volts to verify their claim?



Neither their 35 or 55 watt ballast gets more than "lukewarm". The only time my 55 watt flashlight ballast gets warm is when the voltage to the ballast drops below 9 volts, just before it goes into low voltage cutoff. On my car, the 35 watt ballast, even after a couple hours of driving is almost hard to tell if it is warm. I am quite impressed because the old brick ballasts that I had before would burn the finger prints off of your hand after being on for a bit.


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## BVH (Mar 8, 2010)

Do you have the necessary meters to make the measurements? I'd love to know what they're producing.


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## KLowD9x (Mar 8, 2010)

BVH said:


> Do you have the necessary meters to make the measurements? I'd love to know what they're producing.



Believe me, I have all of the necessary equipment 

I can take home my DVOM and get you exact numbers tonight.


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## XeRay (Mar 8, 2010)

KLowD9x said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to say that ALL Chinese made HID kits are under driving the bulbs in such a way.
> 
> I have several kits from DDMTuning.com and they are probably the best kits I have used.
> 
> ...


 
Not one of the 50 or 55 watt labeled ballasts, including those from DDM are honest 50 or 55 watt output. This is a proven fact, even on the HID planet forums it is an accepted fact. All of the aftermarket KIT ballasts are 80-87% (most are 80-85%) efficient. The most efficient ballasts in the world (this technology) are about 92% so *your 97% is an absolute joke*. DDM ballasts are nowhere near state of the art in efficiency or otherwise. They may be not bad for what they are but thats it. I doubt they claim (lie) 97% or anything close to that for efficiency on the case label or elsewhere. That would be too obvious as BS.

*NONE of the ballasts used it this technology (even the cheapest) are magnetics as you claim. Those are typically used in florescent lighting.*

They were likely so dim and blue as you indicated because they used 8000-12000K bulbs and cheap China made bulbs as well.

BTW 50 or 55 watt input would still result in about 40-47 watts output depending on the true (measured) input watts and true efficiency.

No one said that the 50/55 watt ballasts were not brighter than a typical 35 watt. It is a question about how they come up with their claimed ratings.


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## KLowD9x (Mar 8, 2010)

XeRay said:


> Not one of the 50 or 55 watt labeled ballasts, including those from DDM are honest 50 or 55 watt output. This is a proven fact, even on the HID planet forums it is an accepted fact. All of the aftermarket KIT ballasts are 80-87% (most are 80-85%) efficient. The most efficient ballasts in the world (this technology) are about 92% so *your 97% is an absolute joke*. DDM ballasts are nowhere near state of the art in efficiency or otherwise. They may be not bad for what they are but thats it. I doubt they claim (lie) 97% or anything close to that for efficiency on the case label or elsewhere. That would be too obvious as BS.
> 
> *NONE of the ballasts used it this technology (even the cheapest) are magnetics as you claim. Those are typically used in florescent lighting.*
> 
> ...



No.


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## XeRay (Mar 8, 2010)

KLowD9x said:


> No.


 
Thats an insightful response... :tired:

But concise none the less.


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## bshanahan14rulz (Mar 8, 2010)

I think the biggest issue is that 90% of aftermarkets just put crap into a case that looks like a Philips lvq-212 ballast, so everybody see's that shape and thinks "good" (or "bad," depending on how much you know about kits)

Aftermarket kits have their place. And that place is in non-essential off-road lighting, be it in a handheld torch, or in some aux lights you use for climbing cliffs in your truck.

and as far as digital and magnetic, all ballasts are magnetic in some way or another. almost all ballasts (all that I can think of) use digital circuits, and thusly can be labeled "digital ballast," even though I still just think that's marketing...


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## XeRay (Mar 8, 2010)

bshanahan14rulz said:


> as far as digital and magnetic, all ballasts are magnetic in some way or another. almost all ballasts (all that I can think of) use digital circuits, and thusly can be labeled "digital ballast," even though I still just think that's marketing...


 
These ballasts are NOT "magnetic" as is understood in the larger ballast industry like florescent lamps use magnetic ballasts.

Sure all ballasts have transformers for voltage conversion, (induction) includes a magnetic field.

The digital thing IS mostly marketing however we used (made) "analog" ballasts until about 2-3 years ago. Now our control circuits are a blend of Digital and Analog.


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 8, 2010)

XeRay said:


> Thats an insightful response... :tired:
> 
> But concise none the less.


* Cleaning up coffee spray. *


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## 350xfire (Mar 8, 2010)

Mik said:


> You can do what a lot of us have been doing for a long time.. find a local body shop and ask them if you can buy one or two of the xenon headlights that have been smashed in an accident from a vehicle in the shop. Many shops will throw them away, so nearly a useless item to them. You can salvage useable parts from these even after a wreck - useful parts depend on the extent of the damage, but many times you will get good ballasts, HID bulbs, reflectors/projectors, bulb mounts, wires & connectors. This is a good way to help your project along and stay on a slim budget. The HID components that you get from most OEM's are superior quality to the Chinese stuff as well. :thumbsup:


 
Thanks. I have been thinking about going to the local salvage yard and seeing what they have!


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## KLowD9x (Mar 8, 2010)

XeRay said:


> Thats an insightful response... :tired:
> 
> But concise none the less.



And?


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## XeRay (Mar 11, 2010)

Check out this post and thread.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3311286&postcount=8

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3311286#post3311286


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## toddbailey (Feb 27, 2013)

KLowD9x said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to say that ALL Chinese made HID kits are under driving the bulbs in such a way.
> 
> I have several kits from DDMTuning.com and they are probably the best kits I have used.
> 
> ...



I'm sure that ddmtuning sells quality parts. my problem is my headlights are starting to or have already failed, 1 down 1 going. Being unemployed, ddm tuning parts are too spendy for me.
I just purchased a $30 kit off ebay that ddm tuning sells for nearly $100. I'm sure you get what you pay for, we'll see worse case I can always revert back to halogen bulbs.


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## XeRay (Feb 27, 2013)

toddbailey said:


> I'm sure that ddmtuning sells quality parts. my problem is my headlights are starting to or have already failed, 1 down 1 going. Being unemployed, ddm tuning parts are too spendy for me.
> I just purchased a $30 kit off ebay that ddm tuning sells for nearly $100. I'm sure you get what you pay for, we'll see worse case I can always revert back to halogen bulbs.



ddm tuning does not have a great reputation for quality etc. You can get more good advice for your situation from HID planet forums, they have a lot of knowledge there about Asian (Chinese) "kit" ballasts and bulbs.


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