# Samsung 30A VS Panasonic 2900 [ 18650 ]



## old4570 (Aug 12, 2010)

I just got my Panasonic and Samsung 18650's today .
I dont have a charger that will take the Samsung to 4.35v [ Fully Charged ] 

Anyhow , the Panasonic is 2900mA [ ? ] minimum 2700mA capacity , whilst the Samsung is rated 3000mA [ 4.35v ] ...

Im currently waiting for a 5M variable resistor to see what my Soshine charger can do [ ill try and mod it for 4.35v ] 

Pictures later : 

Ive just done a discharge test to see how well each battery performs ..

Samsung 30A 

XR-E R2 = 1.5A
XP-G R5 = 1.92A
SSC P7 = 3.1A 

Panasonic 2900

XR-E R2 = 1.68A
XP-G R5 = 2.01A
SSC P7 = 3.48A 

I was amazed at the performance in the SSC P7 , 3.48A , this is the best I have seen so far in this light , only the Samsungs have come close .

I,ll do the runtime tests next , but I dont expect the Samsung to do so well , unless I can mod the Soshine to charge the batt to over 4.3v ...







Wow , not fully charged [ 4.2v ] , but certainly looks like the Samsung would be a better choice than a IMR in 18650 .. Im really impressed with the power delivery .. I really am






And Panasonic done , very impressive at the start , 3.53A to start maintaining 3.5A @ 5 minutes and still over 3A at the 10 minute mark ...

Its 2AM ATM ... more latter ..
All testing was with the batteries @ 4.2v

Dimensions = 

Samsung 30A / Dia - 18.1mm Length - 64.8mm
Panasonic 2900 / Dia - 18mm Length - 65.1mm

I,ll post a picture shortly .

I dare say the Samsung 30A would be something special if one could fully charge it [ Which I hope to do ] , even at 4.2v the performance was impressive . The Panasonic really came out of the gate HOT , 3.53Amps is just phenomenal , and maintaining over 3A for 10 minutes , I have never seen that before , I would say I like the power curve of the Samsung better though . The Panasonic was like a bull out of the gate , whilst the Samsung was a very strong performer until near the end , and I really dont mind a strong performance from the start , in the middle , and then running out of steam towards the back end . The Panasonic did finish well though , still providing good power at the back end , something one would expect from a better quality battery , and the Panasonic did not disappoint . 

Its not often I see the other side of 3amps , and both batteries performed well , and I will re-test the Samsung , if and when , I can get more charge into it .
These batteries cost me $11.50USD each shipped , from a Ebay seller in HK [ hkequipment ] . If you need really high output cells , and quality ones at that , ones that can outperform a IMR , here are two japanese cells that you need to look at very hard .


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## mvyrmnd (Aug 12, 2010)

Where did you get the Panasonics from?

I've been a big fan of the Samsungs in the past (I have a bunch of 2600 Pink cells), but the current from those Panasonics looks great.

I'd be interested in getting a few...


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## Black Rose (Aug 12, 2010)

You can get the Panasonic cells on eBay - $29 a pair.


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## old4570 (Aug 12, 2010)

Both are available on Ebay ATM ! 

I hope to be able to charge the Samsung up to its rated 4.35v , it's already proven to be seriously awesome with the output .


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## etc (Aug 12, 2010)

Can Pila charger get it to 4.35V?

I use Panasonic 2900 mAh cells and usually it quits right around 4.2V.


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## old4570 (Aug 12, 2010)

Panasonic should be 4.2v 

The Samsung how ever , goes 4.35v to squeeze in the 3000mA .
You would need a dedicated 4.35v charger , or mod a charger . 
Im going to mod a charger , and try for 4.35v


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## jasonck08 (Aug 12, 2010)

I've got several of both types of cells. They are both excellent cells, but I don't use the Samsung often because I can't fully charge it and only get 2500 or 2600 mAH when charged to 4.2v. I suspect the cycle life may be excellent when only charged to 4.2v.

The Samsung though, I don't have a way to fully charge it easily.


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## lemlux (Aug 12, 2010)

Panasonic touts the 2900 mAh ncr18650 for its relatively new patented nickel cathode and an "insulating metal oxide layer between the positive and negative electrodes" that Panasonic claims prevents overheating and is thus safer than previous cobalt-chemistry lithium-ion cells. Pansonic also claims that this technology provides longer product life and lower self discharge than cobalt type Li-Ion batteries.

That said, Panasonic still makes and sells CGR18650E Lithium Cobalt batteries that are rated at 2550 mAh minimum. In the last two weeks I bought 12 of these new cells on EBay in batches of [email protected] for an average of about $3.50 per cell delivered. My battery analyzer only tests Li-Ions at a discharge rate of 337 mA. At this discharge rate, the first 3 cells have tested out at 2920, 2878, and 2781 mAh discharged down to 3.0V from starting levels of 4.15 to 4.20V. These cells are the highest capacity 18650's I've purchased to date. I haven't yet tested what current they deliver.

I also just harvested an HP battery pack that contained Samung pink 2600 cells. I'm delighted that the first of these tested out at 2771 mAh. So far all the Sanyo red 2600 cells I've harvested from apparently more heavily used packs have clustered in the 2400 mAh range. 

By comparison, the first of 4 new B&M retail Tenergy 2600's I purchased tested at 2615 mAh.


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## old4570 (Aug 12, 2010)

jasonck08 said:


> I've got several of both types of cells. They are both excellent cells, but I don't use the Samsung often because I can't fully charge it and only get 2500 or 2600 mAH when charged to 4.2v. I suspect the cycle life may be excellent when only charged to 4.2v.
> 
> The Samsung though, I don't have a way to fully charge it easily.



Aaaah , but the discharge performance is still excellent , even if its not fully charged , and it can still out perform any Chinese cell


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## etc (Aug 12, 2010)

To repeat myself, I use these Panasonic 2900 mAh cells with great success. Great cell. I also have a bunch of junk cells from laptops but Panasonic cells is what I use for serious situations.


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## jasonck08 (Aug 13, 2010)

Panasonic 2900's are the highest capacity cell with a 4.20 charge voltage to my knowledge that are mass produced.

Anything else above 2600mAH offered from other companies like Sanyo and Samsung require 4.3v or higher (like the 2800mAH cells from Samsung and Sanyo).


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## zer0ne (Aug 26, 2010)

Sanyo's latest ZTA also up to 4.35v typical 3000mAh


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 26, 2010)

Samsung is the world's largest electronics company, and is based in South Korea. They are a high quality company that have a known reputation. As such, these cells (& Panasonic) are quality products, but are still unprotected Lithium Cobalt cells that require users to be aware of their safe use. They are made for, and intended to be used in manufactured packs with added balancing protection circuits to avoid problems. 

Those using them in flashlight applications should take the time to learn about the safe use and handling, as well as what precautions to take for your own safety since these are unprotected Lithium Cobalt cells.

Here is the full PDF data sheet on these particular cells so people can make informed choices--especially note specific safety warnings on p. 13. *Please note, unlike the OP's uninformed EBay listing, Samsung specifies a charging limit of 4.2V CC*.


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## jasonck08 (Aug 26, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> *Please note, unlike the OP's uninformed EBay listing, Samsung specifies a charging limit of 4.2V CC*.


 

Huh? No they don't. This cell is suppose to be charged to 4.35v. Samsungs documentation for this cell is found here: http://www.samsungsdi.com/battery/cylindrical-ICR185650-30A.jsp

Charging to 4.20v will only yield 2500-2600mah. I have this cell. You can also search up SilverFoxes text on this cell. I sent him one to test.

I do agree with you that you need to be well informed about the dangers and best ways to handle unprotected Li-ion cells, before you get some of these. Protected cells are always a better way to go.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 26, 2010)

jasonck08 said:


> Huh? No they don't. This cell is suppose to be charged to 4.35v. Samsungs documentation for this cell is found here: http://www.samsungsdi.com/battery/cylindrical-ICR185650-30A.jsp
> 
> Charging to 4.20v will only yield 2500-2600mah. I have this cell. You can also search up SilverFoxes text on this cell. I sent him one to test.
> 
> I do agree with you that you need to be well informed about the dangers and best ways to handle unprotected Li-ion cells, before you get some of these. Protected cells are always a better way to go.



There is conflict with that single line shortcut listing and section 7 of the 14 page Samsung PDF giving many more details on this exact cell which lists 4.2V as the standard charge. Unless you are certain about all the details in using these at a higher charging voltage, I would prefer to follow more conservative guidelines for an unprotected new type of Lithium Cobalt chemistry.

I will defer to Tom's testing of it in this thread, but apparently this is another variation of Lithium Cobalt, designed for a specific application. I would be hesitant to use it in flashlights until the technology is proven safe in a flashlight application, as the cost of being a guinea pig in a non-recommended application is too high. 

There are also no approved chargers that I know of with a safe charging algorithm that people can use for adequate safety. I noted that someone else added a protection circuit to the one that Tom got to test that may or may not be safe with Samsung's design.


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## jasonck08 (Aug 27, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> There is conflict with that single line shortcut listing and section 7 of the 14 page Samsung PDF giving many more details on this exact cell which lists 4.2V as the standard charge. Unless you are certain about all the details in using these at a higher charging voltage, I would prefer to follow more conservative guidelines for an unprotected new type of Lithium Cobalt chemistry.
> 
> I will defer to Tom's testing of it in this thread, but apparently this is another variation of Lithium Cobalt, designed for a specific application. I would be hesitant to use it in flashlights until the technology is proven safe in a flashlight application, as the cost of being a guinea pig in a non-recommended application is too high.
> 
> There are also no approved chargers that I know of with a safe charging algorithm that people can use for adequate safety. I noted that someone else added a protection circuit to the one that Tom got to test that may or may not be safe with Samsung's design.


 
I appreciate your insight, but incase you haven’t noticed many li-ion manufacturers are increasing the charge voltage higher end cells, not just Samsung.

Sanyo has a 2800mAh cell with a 4.3v recommended charge, Samsung has another 2800mAh cell with a 4.3v recommended charge.

And LG has a 2800mAh cell with a 4.35v charge as well as this Samsung cells 4.35.

I'm pretty darn sure that yes it is correct to charge these cells to 4.35v, and that the cell has been thoroughly tested by these large companies million dollar QA budgets.

I have full confidence in the quality and information that companies like Sanyo, Panasonic, LG, and Samsung provide. :thumbsup:

You are correct and it has been brought up several times, that there is no safe or convenient way to charge these higher voltage cells. So unless you want to live with a 4.2v charging voltage and decreased capacity, they really are not worth investing in at this time.


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## Quension (Aug 27, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> There is conflict with that single line shortcut listing and section 7 of the 14 page Samsung PDF giving many more details on this exact cell which lists 4.2V as the standard charge.



It also specifies charging voltage as 4.3V in section 3.3, and then conflicts with itself again in other sections. The date on it is 2007, but I had the impression these batteries haven't been in production that long. Frankly that PDF looks a bit dodgy to me, like it's an early draft -- especially since most finalized specs do not start with a version of "0.0".


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## Phaserburn (Aug 27, 2010)

What chargers are available that charge to these higher voltages?


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## etc (Aug 27, 2010)

Interesting, looks like I need a newer charger.


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## amigafan2003 (Aug 27, 2010)

> What chargers are available that charge to these higher voltages?



None - at least not consumer grade.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 27, 2010)

jasonck08 said:


> I appreciate your insight, but incase you haven’t noticed many li-ion manufacturers are increasing the charge voltage higher end cells, not just Samsung.
> 
> Sanyo has a 2800mAh cell with a 4.3v recommended charge, Samsung has another 2800mAh cell with a 4.3v recommended charge.
> 
> ...



Jason, honestly this was the first thread I have seen that brought up higher charging voltages with Lithium Cobalt cells, and made my comments before seeing your post leading me find to Tom's review. 

I was not able to resolve differences brought up by the PDF which seemed more comprehensive, even though it had its own internal inconsistencies. I was not sure in the PDF if they intended the higher voltage to be used for rapid charging current of 3A, but they did specify 4.2V @ 1.4A for standard charging. 

I did not see how people were going to be able to safely charge since hobby chargers don't have 4.35 Li-Ion capability. I also have full confidence in those same companies you mentioned, it was more a question of the intended design purpose & charging solution to be used.

Thanks for your understanding. It would be great to find some more definitive spec sheets giving information on the intended purpose of these higher voltage cells, what/why they are different, and whether there are higher safety risks (i.e. a smaller window of overcharging tolerance) before feeling comfortable using them.


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## urahel (Sep 26, 2010)

Phaserburn said:


> What chargers are available that charge to these higher voltages?


Euroled sell a 4.3v charger along with their new namebrand enerlion 18650
which are Samsung 30A fitted with a custom pcb
sound promising :naughty:
but I can't comment on it cause haven't tried yet

hope my english make sense


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## DTR (Oct 22, 2010)

I have been looking at this LG battery at batteryspace but they don't have a charger for it so in my searching I was led here. I saw the Samsung and I plan on getting a few of those as well. But I am still trying to find a charger for the unit. I unfortunatly don't have the skills to modify one myself.

Anyone find a charger that will cutoff at 4.35V or know of a member here that will modify one for me.


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