# Surefire 6P Z41 tailcap issues



## troika (Nov 30, 2011)

Hey guys, I haven't really introduced myself here yet. Short version, I've got a few small carry lights and sort of have the bug.

I decided I needed to see what the big deal with Surefire was and picked up a used 6P with an LED module in it. Don't know which one, but I would guess it's somewhere around 120 lumen just based on the output.

The light works, when I twist it on, but usually doesn't when I try to click it. I cleaned the springs a little bit last night and it may have helped, but didn't solve the problem. I've been reading here about similar issues. I suppose it's possible that this drop in is not the right fit, though it looks tight and doesn't rattle. I'm going to work on the threads tonight based on another post that I read.

Is it the tailcap and if so, repair or replace? The drop in? Do I need to do a better job of cleaning? 

It's a cool light, I'm glad I have it. Would love to get it working reliably and it may help me feel good about dropping the cash for a newer SF at some point.

Thanks in advance for your advice,

Troy


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## Viper715 (Nov 30, 2011)

Not sure which tailcap you have. Some are twist tailcaps and you can press it for a momentary but it wont "click" on. Then there is the forward clicky tailcap which you press for momentary or you can click it on but there isno twist involved. 

If you have the twist tailcap then yes sometimes there are problems after its been used alot. I had an old c2 that would twist on fine but when I would push it sometimes it wouldn't work and it made weird grinding noises and when I would shake it sounded like something was loose. If that's the case it's just old call surefire and they will send you a replacement. Then you can do what I did with my old tailcap convert it to a clicky with a McClicky kit from oveready.


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## Kestrel (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Surefire 6P issues*

Most SF 6P's were shipped with twistie tailcaps (Z41's), they have a 'momentary' button that doesn't actually click on. If you could post a pic of the interior of your tailcap, that would help. Otherwise, google some tailcap images to make sure you have the Z41 or some other tailcap.


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## troika (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Surefire 6P issues*

Thanks, it's the "push-for-instant-on and twist-for-constant-on" type. Twist works, push almost never does. I shouldn't have said "click", it doesn't actually click and I don't think it's supposed to.

It hadn't occured to me that SF might replace it. That would be great! I'll look into that and also search on McClicky. Like the sound of that.

Thanks, very much for your advice. I'll let you know when I get it sorted.

Troy





Viper715 said:


> Not sure which tailcap you have. Some are twist tailcaps and you can press it for a momentary but it wont "click" on. Then there is the forward clicky tailcap which you press for momentary or you can click it on but there isno twist involved.
> 
> If you have the twist tailcap then yes sometimes there are problems after its been used alot. I had an old c2 that would twist on fine but when I would push it sometimes it wouldn't work and it made weird grinding noises and when I would shake it sounded like something was loose. If that's the case it's just old call surefire and they will send you a replacement. Then you can do what I did with my old tailcap convert it to a clicky with a McClicky kit from oveready.


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## troika (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Surefire 6P issues*

Kestral, it looks like the Z41 type. I don't have the light with me, but could photograph it later. It's a WELL USED 6P, not sure how old, but nothing especially contemporary.


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## LE6920 (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Surefire 6P issues*



troika said:


> Kestral, it looks like the Z41 type. I don't have the light with me, but could photograph it later. It's a WELL USED 6P, not sure how old, but nothing especially contemporary.



The spring could be compressed. How old is the light? I would call Surefire and they will replace it.


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## troika (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Surefire 6P issues*

Don't know. It's old. 

I'll definitely call them. Didn't occur to me, but it should have.

Thanks,


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## Kestrel (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Surefire 6P issues*



troika said:


> Kestral, it looks like the Z41 type. I don't have the light with me, but could photograph it later. It's a WELL USED 6P, not sure how old, but nothing especially contemporary.


If it shows lots of honest use, please feel free to post pics in the following thread: 
Show your beat up light.

Edit: BTW I've added some info to your thread title.


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## troika (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Surefire 6P issues*

Will do!

Hey, I just got off the phone with Surefire...okay I get it now, American Company, great service, stands behind their products no questions asked....yes, indeedy.

I described the problem and my attempts to clean, he directed my cleaning efforts a little differently and I'll try that tonight. He said that he expected that to fully resolve my issue and I believe him.

Then he said "but, let me send you a newer style tailcap anyway" and explained the lockout feature that mine pre-dates. Wow. I forgot that that's how things used to work. 

Thanks again for your help. It's sad that it didn't occur to me to call the company directly. It would have 15 years ago. Good on Surefire for hanging tough, I can see why people are loyal to them.


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## Viper715 (Nov 30, 2011)

There one of the good ones for sure. They've helped me out more than once even when I want to pay for some things they still have sent free replacements. I have a good number of older Surefires. 

Reference the McClicky oveready.com sells a kit that can just screw into the Z41 after you remove the guts.


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## troika (Dec 1, 2011)

Cleaned it up last night with only a dry paper towel as suggested and it made a huge difference, might even go so far as to say "it's fixed", but test it over a week or so. Should probably invest in some contact cleaner.

It looks old, but it didn't really look dirty, amazing how much difference it made.


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## dougie (Dec 1, 2011)

Many people rubbish Surefire for not having the latest or most powerful LED lights. However, I've yet to come across a company who looks after their customers like Surefire does AND especially after years have passed by and you haven't got a copy of the original receipt! Surefire rocks!!


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## signal 13 (Dec 3, 2011)

Surefire has taken care of me after a few V70 springs went kaput. Sent me brand new replacements after sending in the broken ones. Same thing with a P60L that I broke on duty.

Only time they managed to tick me off was when one of their V85s disintegrated after 4 days on my duty belt. I expected to be able to send it in for repair or replacement. Instead their recommendation was to "buy a new one". 

But I'm still a Surefire addict for life.


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## troika (Dec 3, 2011)

Haven't got my new tailcap in the mail yet. I have cleaned and then deeper cleaned and it's inconsistent. Starting to even get inconsistent when "twisted on". Again, this is a very old 6P with an LED drop in, so no reflection on Surefire and I'm not complaining, just trying to deal. How I tighten the head on seems to matter too, something less than fully tight seems to be what it needs. I can't really do much more cleaning, but should maybe try the DeoxIT (sp?). I'll see how it behaves with the new tailpiece and I could pickup a new head. There was a newish used one that I just sold for $13 on eBay or I could get one of the aftermarkets. 

After that, I've got nothing left to suspect except the drop in unit, which, of course, I could replace. I don't know what the one that's in there is. I've been reading about my alternatives.

Any thoughts?


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## Viper715 (Dec 3, 2011)

It still sounds like the tailcap to me. Once you get the replacement from SF you'll know for sure. If you do have a problem with the drop in or just want to upgrade I would go with a Malkoff. A M61HCRI is my favorite or a M61LHCRI. If you like tighter beams then a M60. Also on the less expensive side is Nailbenders numerous offerings or a Lumens Factory HCRI from Illumination Supply.


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## HotWire (Dec 4, 2011)

It's probably the tailcap. But... try this: remove the tailcap, take a paperclip and bridge the body with the negative end of the battery. If the light is good, it's the tailcap. If no light, work with the spring on the dropin (or replace it). You will learn to love this light! Surefire has a good reputation for replacing defective parts. If you want a clicky use the search here and find out how to remove the switch guts and insert a McClicky switch. You might need a little heat.


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## troika (Dec 4, 2011)

HotWire said:


> It's probably the tailcap. But... try this: remove the tailcap, take a paperclip and bridge the body with the negative end of the battery. If the light is good, it's the tailcap.



That didn't work. Since I've got a new tailcap coming in the next few days, I'll wait and see if that completely resolves it or not. But, I'm starting to suspect things at the other end.



HotWire said:


> If no light, work with the spring on the dropin (or replace it).



I don't know what the drop in it is. It doesn't have any writing on it. Came to me with it installed. I played with the spring a bit, but it didn't behave any differently. It could be defective or damaged. 

I feel like I've cleaned the light as thoroughly as I can and the only thing that I could still do is some contact solution. DeoxIT, I think is what people use. I theory, I think if the surfaces weren't straight it could create uneven contact and odd behavior, but I think it's a better bet to suspect the aftermarket LED unit at this point (assuming the tailpiece doesn't resolve the issue)



HotWire said:


> You will learn to love this light! Surefire has a good reputation for replacing defective parts. If you want a clicky use the search here and find out how to remove the switch guts and insert a McClicky switch. You might need a little heat.



I am going to love this light. I have a couple of small carry lights that are very reliable and consistent (so far). It may take me a while to get this one there, but I'm learning a lot in the process and when I've got it dialed in, I'm sure it will be my favorite.

I did look at the McClickies and since I'll have 2 tailpieces, I may do that to one of them, once the light is reliable.


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## troika (Dec 6, 2011)

So, update. I haven't received the tailcap from Surefire yet, but though the original is a little worn, I'm doubting that's the problem.

If I screw the head all the way down, the light doesn't work. If I back it out a little then it does. If I get it and the tailcap each in just the right place, the momentary on works too. Certainly not reliable to carry that way, fine for a trip to the woodpile, but that's about it,

So, what I think that leaves is;

1) The contact points on the top end are fouled somehow. They look clean and I cleaned them pretty thoroughly, could try some DeoxIt Gold and likely will at some point, but don't have any and kind of how my doubts on this theory.
2) The LED is whomply. As previously mentioned, it's an aftermarket upgrade, with no label on it that I can see, so I have no idea what it is or how old.

Is there a third suspect? Any opinions on which of these is the most likely? I wish I had another 6P like light to test each of these components in, that would expose the culprit pretty quickly, but alas...


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## Paladin (Dec 6, 2011)

If your 6P is the older round body the drop in might be your problem. The old non-click style tailcap is known to be very reliable. I hope your used light with unknown dropin doesn't give you a negative impression about Surefire lights.

You might want to try a KX4 or KX4D LED bezel built by Surefire. 120 lumens, and should work well on your 6P body.

Paladin


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## troika (Dec 6, 2011)

I know that Surefires are great lights and I knew I was buying an old and modified one with some stated problems.


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## troika (Dec 6, 2011)

Paladin said:


> You might want to try a KX4 or KX4D LED bezel built by Surefire. 120 lumens, and should work well on your 6P body.



You know, I looked at those, but I'm leaning toward:

a) Malkoff M61L or
b) Something in the $20 range to make sure that it's going to work reliably and see if I feel like investing more in this light

The lens has a few little spots on it that are visible in the beam, not a huge deal, but it won't be perfect even with the Malkoff. Don't think I can replace the lens and think I would need to replace the head instead...or just live with the spots.


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## HotWire (Dec 7, 2011)

Try bending the larger spring on the dropin. Maybe tweak the end out a little. You might lengthen it by stretching. Be sure to clean the front inside of the body. Sounds like the spring. I usually use two pair of long nose pliers to make it easier to bend. You'll get it. You will love Malkoff products!

EDIT: The lens is easily replaced by unscrewing the bezel ring. Oveready and others sell a tool to help you do that. Flashlightlens.com can sell you the right lens for the 6P.


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## kosPap (Dec 7, 2011)

hotwire may be right, but I will put my bets in teh tailcap spring....
springs can take a set...here are some photos











*the tailcap spring is taht compresed by usinga too long battery column


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## troika (Dec 8, 2011)

Thanks for those pics. The drop in spring looks like I think it should, but I futzed with it anyway. The tailcap is definitely old and looks old, but playing with the spring hasn't made a difference. When I get the new one from SF, it either will or won't solve the problem and then I'll know. 

Cleaning the light did seem to make a difference. 

If I screw the head and the tailcap all the way down. The light is not on. If I back the head out a little it comes on...a little more it goes off. Because it can't "lock" into that just "right" position, I can't just pick the light up and expect it to work. That really makes me think it's either a contact issue on the head-end, but aside from DeoxIT, I'm not sure that I can clean it any better than I have.

Or, the drop in. The drop in seems the likely suspect to me, since it's not original and it could be a $10 drop in or a $50 drop in, I don't see any markings on it to suggest and I know that some are more reliable than others. My assumption is that it's an expensive one, since I picked this light up pretty cheap.

Looking forward to testing with the new tailcap when it comes. That will either confirm or rule out that end of the light.

I really, really apprecaite everyone's help on this. If I sound stressed out about it, I'm not. Its fun having a project light...as most of you know. I'm sure it won't be my last, but it's a good one for me to cut my teeth on. Assuming that I can get this light to be a good and reliable one, it will probably be the one that value the most.


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## HotWire (Dec 8, 2011)

Have you tried bending the dropin springs? Just a little tweak can make a *huge* difference. Once you get a bunch of flashlights you'll end up with lots of spare parts that you can swap in and out making troubleshooting easier. When you get your new tailcap please post so that we know how you fixed it. Good luck.


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## kosPap (Dec 9, 2011)

there is a chance that the following happens....

if we assume a longer than usual drop-in central spring + battery column combination when you are screwing all the way down, the increased length is *pushing the internals of the tailcap backwards *and out of contact with the body rim. This breaks electrical contact...

thsi is exactly what happened with the compressed tailcap spring that I show above.

you can test this by using a solarforce etc switch... if it works fully tight it is wehat I say (propably)

BTW I ahve said it before but I will repeat it for the sake of others...Save yuo xenon bulbs..the central spring is the same with the Z41 tailcap spring one


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## troika (Dec 9, 2011)

kosPap said:


> there is a chance that the following happens....
> 
> if we assume a longer than usual drop-in central spring + battery column combination when you are screwing all the way down, the increased length is *pushing the internals of the tailcap backwards *and out of contact with the body rim. This breaks electrical contact...



You know, I think we have a winner. First of all, it makes sense. Second, I crunched down the spring as much as I could, but I also noticed that the brass base with the spring and LED was threaded into the reflector, so I took it off, cleaned and lubed the threads and then used some pliers to tighten it down as much as possible without forcing, theoretically making the spring extend not quite as far into the tube. Screwed the head all the way down tight and now it works when screwed in full. The momentary on is still a little inconsistent. But, I'm convinced that this is what is going on. 

Fiddling with it a little more, it seems to be working as designed now. How about that? Thanks guys!

The tailcap still seems a little bit inconsistent, I THINK Surefire is sending me a new one (which still blows my mind). I'm guessing it will help tighten up the operation. I might consider McClicky'ing this one, as it's seen a lot of action and could probably use the rebuild. 

Is this too-long spring issue common in drop ins or just certain brands? Had I bought the Molkoff, for example, would it have been predictably to spec and have solved the problem without me knowing why?

I'll say it again, I really appreciate you guys helping me work through this.


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## kosPap (Dec 10, 2011)

Well one cannot beat the argument of the Malkoff consistency....

But I have seen so many dropins parts that you cannot know for sure if it will create you trouble. 
First it is the central springs. Or better phrased how far down the compress. Some not much, their compressed length is still a 1+ to 2mm. (But these are prome optiosn for high current draw applications, assuring better contact and less electrical resistance)
Some are on the otehr end. Thin wire, and compress down a lot. Like the Derrelight ones.
(Just to ad soem future reference I have seen a difference in performance where different springs have different electrical resistance)

On the other hand the module brass pill may even be the culprit. There has been a varianc eover the years and it is not uncommon to find specimens that screw further into the reflector or have a different length OAL and a difference in internlal room for the electronics. When you mix and match parts you may have a combination where the pil protrudes into the flashlight tube more than usuall. (take this with a grain of salt)

Well I do hope all this will be of use and it does not sound like rumbling.... 
Hve the ebst of luck & a McClicky never hurts.....LOL, Kostas


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## troika (Dec 10, 2011)

Well, it's helpful to me and I really appreciate you and the others taking so much time to educate me on this. Not only am I getting this light back in the game, but I'm learning about this hobby in the process. The description of the spring from the drop in moving the batteries back far enough to keep the tailcap from contacting the points at the bottom of the tube was an epiphany for me. It all kind of came together from there. I realize this is a fairly simple flashlight and I still have a lot to learn about multi-mode lights, etc, but this was my initial education. Thanks again.

So, I was up and out at 5:00 this morning to watch the lunar eclipse and then meet some friends at our usual Saturday morning workout spot (outside in the dark). This light worked as new. I'm just about ready to pronounce it "cured". Working on buffing out a scratch in the lens and I might still consider the Malkoff at some point. I don't think this is a particularly good drop in. The light's performance compared to my Fenix PD30, for example is not quite as good. Getting it to the point of trusting it to work and understanding what's going on in there was a big first step.


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## Toohotruk (Dec 10, 2011)

Glad you got it to work right, you can't go wrong with a 6P. 

I second Kestrel's invitation to post pics of your new baby on the beat up lights thread. 

It's one of my favorite threads! :naughty:

:welcome:


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## troika (Dec 10, 2011)

I'll try! I failed at uploading a photo to a different thread this week. I'll look at it again.


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## troika (Dec 13, 2011)

A very helpful forum member mailed me an original SF incan bulb. The light works as designed with it, so the problem is definitely the drop in. After futzing with it, it mostly works now, but it might be worth replacing the drop in. The lens has a scratch that effects the beam and I've been trying to polish that out or replace it. I'd hate to spend Malkoff money and then have a flaw in the beam from the lens. 

Thanks to you all and especially to my generous benefactor.

EDIT: AND I came home to a new tailcap as promised from Surefire. Wow, can't get my brain around that type of warranty/customer service in 2011. I need to become a proper customer for them with a new SF light some day soon.

I'm completely convinced that the aftermarket dropin was the problem. But, the original tailcap was pretty worn and loose. It works better with the new one. Everything is tighter and it operates better.


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## troika (Dec 23, 2011)

I want to officially pronounce this thread closed and thank everyone for all the awesome help I got here. This was my first flashlight project and I learned a ton from it. Learned that much again by searching through your past and current threads and getting a lot of questions answered that I didn't have to post. 

Will try to get some pics up in the old/ratty/beatup thread.

The problem was the drop in. The tailcap does need a refresh, because it's a little vague vs the new one that Surefire sent me. Downgrading it to the stock incan unit definitively resolved it and while I could get the LED to work off and on, it wasn't reliable. I actually liked the light with the incan better than I thought, so I decided to just leave it that way....

...and then I ordered a Malkoff M61. Holy crap, love the outcome. Spend more on the drop-in that I did on the light, but it feels worth it at the moment. Couldn't be any happier.

I bought a used SF 6P Defender head on eBay for $16. My original had a acrylic lens that was pretty marred up and showed the beam. I polished some of it out, but couldn't get it clean. I also tinker with watchmaking and I'll try again next time i have some Polywatch. But, now I've got the original head, a Defender Head and 2 tailcaps. The tired one will get McClickyfied at some point.

So, I'm thinking a need another battery tube, and I'll have a 2nd light! Planning the next build in my sleep.

Thanks again, this light's issues are resolved, so I'll let this thread lie.


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## HotWire (Dec 23, 2011)

If you bought any of Malkoff's dropins you would have zero trouble..... and if by chance you did, he would fix it for you right away. Good company! Don't forget you can buy a new lens. You'll need a tool to get the bezel ring off, though.


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## troika (Dec 24, 2011)

I asked Gene if I needed a new lens and he said the orig was fine. Is the issue clarity or heat?

The head that came with the light didn't have a bezel that could be unscrewed to change the lens. The Defender head I bought does, so I could swap it.


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