# Build Log, interim name '30k deathray' more XM-Ls than you can shake a stick at.



## CKOD (Apr 8, 2011)

I was feeling the need to upgrade a handheld spotlight in a multi-aspheric sort of manner, like databank 70, or hexaspherical. 

Well from a little 5" spotlight stuff got constantly upgraded untill I finally have settled on a general size /power level.



 



Initial renders for sizing everything up

Some plans details have changed but the general layout is the same. 






not just fun renderings either  Got the lenses sorted out, and the mcpcbs, though that could change depending on some other projects by others, and of course the host. 

Stuff thats done now:
Lens selection, ahorton aspherics look like the way to go.
Buying Host, lenses and KD MCPCBs 
Buying LEDs : XML U2 bin brightness, on cutter site sure looks interesting


Working on now:
Lux boosting R&D. 23.5K cp with 1 XM-L T6 and ahorton aspheric isnt quite enough, U2 bin numbers soon to come, and then other tricks too hopefully.


Stuff left to work on.
Spacers, for standing off the lenses from the LEDs
Mounting plate: Copper, Aluminum? Not sure yet, but either way its gonna be beefy
Heatsinking, lots and lots of heatsinking, probably a fan or two, dont think I wanna carry around enough aluminum to passively cool this. 
Powering, National semi has some nice chips which should make perfect drivers, and a few other fun things, and big batteries of course. 

Long way to go, but it'll be a monster in the end. 

Wont be working on this all the time, busting it out real quick, but it'll get done eventually.


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## CKOD (Apr 8, 2011)

And lets put this spot on hold in case I need it later


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## srfreddy (Apr 8, 2011)

I've heard that the cutter MCPCB's are pretty bad for heatsinking though.... Thats a Monster! Is that 36?


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## 2100 (Apr 8, 2011)

That's cool. So that'll be more than the Maelstorm with 18 XM-Ls.  

How many drivers? (how to balance them LEDs?)


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## Patriot (Apr 8, 2011)

Wow! Really interesting project and it seems that the XM-L is the ideal platform for this kind of array.


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## CKOD (Apr 8, 2011)

Those are Kaidomain MCPCBs which I picked up after seeing the cutter ones didnt even have a copper fill on the top, I scraped at one, and its not just a thin layers of FR-4 on top of the aluminum. And like I said, I could be changing to a different mcpcb source if one of the other projects on here works out. My power budget tops out at 400W, so that doesnt leave much room for driving past 3A/led (360W) after driver efficiency is accounted for, so I dont need the absolute best, but the less themal resistance I have from the LED to the heatsink, the higher the thermal resistance that the heatsink can be for the same performance


I'm thinking it will be 4 chains of 9 LEDs making for 4 banks with drivers, it divides up into a nice pattern, the voltage is reasonable, and its not a crazy amount of drivers. I'm definitely not having any LEDs in parallel so balancing them that way wont be a problem. I'm having a PCB made and using 4 Nat Semi led constant current driver controller ICs to make 4, 3A dimmable buck converters, and a microcontroller for managing the 4 of them.

EDIt:
and patriot, if by perfect platform, you mean not $30+/LED like the SST-50's then you are correct :nana: It fits into a nice niche where the performance is high enough, heat dissipation is low enough per LED, and the cost is low enough, this is feasible.


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## Benson (Apr 9, 2011)

Well... that'll be a bit of a BAMFlight, won't it?!
:bow::bow:


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## DM51 (Apr 9, 2011)

Interesting project - very ambitious! As you have said, heat buildup is likely to be your biggest headache, and you may have quite a problem with it in that particular host.


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## CKOD (Apr 18, 2011)

Mmmm progress today, just got my cutter shipment in. 

~42k potential lumens there  (extras for R&D and other stuff, 36 slated for the spotlight. 
Time for a comparison test between the cutter PCB and the KD MCPCB performance. 

Then some more R&D type stuff before I start making lamp assemblies.


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## onetrickpony (Apr 18, 2011)

That is a beautiful thing, gotta love that the U2 bin is actually available! SWEEEEET!!!!!


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 18, 2011)

You might need a metal host, that Thor is going to melt unless you don't drive the XMLs to spec.


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## magicmanchris (Apr 19, 2011)

CKOD, your in for a real treat if you see this through to the end. I just fired up my KONG-12 for the first time tonight. This was the 1st KONG that was built using 12 XML's LEDs. I have had such a blast tonight turning this monster on. What satisfaction to go from total darkness to instant 12,000lumens with one push of a button. I can appreciate what your trying to do. I know that something 3 X's the power of my new KONG will be a true killer!!!


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## magicmanchris (Apr 19, 2011)

BTW, this thread will likely get moved to LED's or the Custom/Modified section.


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## CKOD (Apr 19, 2011)

Thanks for all the positive responses, It'll certainly be a fun toy when its done. And Ma-Sha dont worry about the heat, its nothing more fins and more fans wont take care of. I dont think I'll have to go to water cooling, so it isnt that bad  The ahorton aspherics only need to be ~8.7 mm from the dome of the LED, and the lens isnt that tall, so that leaves plenty of space in that bell-mouth for heatsinking. I'm hoping I can fit my drivers, DC-DC converters, their heatsinking, and all the other control circuitry in the battery compartment.

EDIT: 
new developments in R&D

Did a comparison of the Cutter XM-L boards and KD XM-L boards. Mounted a U2 2S XM-L to one of each PCB (reflowing onto pre-tinned pads with RMA flux) 

Screwed the pcb to a heatsink I pulled from an old mobo for the mosfets, using thermal compound(one at a time of course). Ran each LED at 3.73A for 10 minutes to reach a somewhat steady equilibrium. I recorded the Vf at the power supply and light output on a lux-meter 6.5" away, neither the clamp for the heatsink nor the lux-meter moved between tests. 

Even soldering the wire leads to the PCBs with them mounted to the heatsink, I noticed the KD board was harder to solder. I also noticed the heatsink became hotter much faster with the KD compared to the cutter PCB (hotter faster is good!) 

Results:

```
KD     Cutter
Initial lux    11.65k   9.17k
T+10 Lux       10.31k   7.47k
Lux drop       11.5%    18.5%
Initial Vf*    3.78v    3.73v
T+10 Vf*       3.70v    3.63
Vf drop        .08v     .1v
```
*The Vf was at the power supply, not at the LED, so there is ~6ft of wire that is probably a touch small for 4A between the LED and the voltage measurement. 
I think the results pretty much speak for themselves, the KD boards are the better of the two


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## CKOD (May 4, 2011)

And more goodies for R&D. 






Waterclear epoxy, meant for encapsulating LEDs. like whats usually used for 5mm leds etc... probably cant take the heat of being right next to the die on the XM-L, both are rated at 150C, but I suspect neither likes being at 150. But good thing the epoxy isnt going to be right against the die 





test-rig, KD MCPCB arctic silver-ed down, used a 2-ton press to hold the pcb down firmly while it cured, hence the ooze around the perimeter. Some low-profile nuts to make a dam, epoxied to the mcpcb, and a threaded ring epoxied to the aluminum to screw on the lens tube assembly. (I find the focal length by dialing in the lens, locking it in with the jamnut, and then gingerly ripping the whole thing off the anodized heatsink, so I can measure the distance from LED to HS face  ) 

Some UCL lenses off to the right also, to go on top of the nuts, after I backfill it with epoxy.

Hopefully I can then maintain around the same refractive index from the die, out to the AR-coated surface of the UCL lens. Negating the effects of the dome. Ive done some trials, filling the dam with rubbing alcohol, and got a 5% increase in lux, narrower beam, though, a liquid lens isnt exactly ideal.

Once I get a focal length for the epoxy/UCL lens combo, I can start finalizing dimensions of other components for this.


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## Walterk (May 4, 2011)

Great project.
Karl Dose GmbH makes ship's searchlight with multileds with tir-optics.
It will give you lumen, but won't give you the throw Databank has.


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## CKOD (May 4, 2011)

Walterk said:


> Great project.
> Karl Dose GmbH makes ship's searchlight with multileds with tir-optics.
> It will give you lumen, but won't give you the throw Databank has.


 
Neat stuff! yeah the TIR stuff isnt usually that tight, I like the combined central lens and imaging quality reflector that the TIR lenses have (I have a 1.25D mag with a SST-90 and TIR lens) gives a nice square projection of the die, and a bit of a hot spot, but its quite floody. I built a SST-90 mag with a DX aspheric for my friend, and the die projection is ~1/4 the size of the projection from the TIR in my mag. Though mine is great for around the house stuff. 

I think its more of a market sort of thing that they dont make tight, 1 degree, 2 degree etc FWHM TIR lenses since a 2-4 degree beam is of rather limited use, and arrayed LED spotlights arent that common at the moment. I'd be neat to see a manufacturer make a light with a few SST-90 or -50s and a large-ish (40-60mm) TIR lens have a nice and tight beam.


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## CKOD (May 9, 2011)

And no luck with boosting lux output via virtual de-doming on its own today. I tried encapsulating 2 different LEDs, the first one, I was using the obvious source of heat to speed the cure of the epoxy (running the LED itself...) It cured up nicely, however the silicone dome pulled back away from the epoxy after the curing. I still tested it of course, and didnt see any increase in lux output, though the beam was narrower. (Which in turn means less lumens out, boo...) 

2nd attempt, wasnt perfect, some bubbles in the epoxy, and I cured the whole assembly with a heat gun for a nice even cure, and the virtual de-doming was a success, looking down though the window, I cant see the dome at all, index of refraction is matched well enough that I cant see the dome. Lux was a wash again, slightly less then before encapsulation, same narrowed beam. I'm unsure if removing the bubbles would net a gain in lux that would make this worth doing, though the assembly process I was looking at would be easier to do, and put any bubbles that appear in a more desireable spot. (against the MCPCB rather then against the window) 

I'll give it a 3rd shot, with a different method, to avoid bubbles, and hopefully less scattering will make for an appreciable improvement in CP output. The U2 bins are already getting me 30k CP peak, and ~23k CP average(ish). 

Not all is lost though, I'll let the 2nd attempt cure completely overnight and then do some tests/thermal cycling on it, and other longevity tests for good measure.


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## netprince (May 9, 2011)

Just found your thread. Neat project, I would like to build something like this some day. Subscribed.


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## bshanahan14rulz (May 9, 2011)

is the dome made of one material, or is it a few layers of differing materials? I was thinking, why not carefully file down the dome and then use the epoxy you have to "wet" the sanded surface? You could do this with #1 or #2 after you have completed tests, to keep from using another new LED.

Cool project, can't wait to watch it mature =)


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## CKOD (May 9, 2011)

bshanahan14rulz said:


> is the dome made of one material, or is it a few layers of differing materials? I was thinking, why not carefully file down the dome and then use the epoxy you have to "wet" the sanded surface? You could do this with #1 or #2 after you have completed tests, to keep from using another new LED.
> 
> Cool project, can't wait to watch it mature =)




The dome is all silicone on the XM-Ls rather then glass or hard plastic/epoxy like on other LEDs, which presents the problem, since the only thing that likes to stick to silicone is more silicone. And I'm certainly not considering optical silicone at $800/kg with a 1kg minimum from dow-corning, lol. 
For my 3rd test LED I'll have to let it cure 24 hours at room temp. The problem is that the dome on the LED will actually swell as it heats up, and shrink as it cools down, with the die at temperature, and heating everything else, the epoxy set with it at one size, and when it cooled it contracted and broke the bond between the silicone and epoxy. The only question then is, if I let it cure nice and hard, will the stresses from the CTE mismatch of the silicone dome and epoxy backfill cause any issues? Hopefully stress testing on #2 will give answers, and see if the dome stays bonded. That and I'm sure the glass-epoxy bond is on the weak side too, so any tension there could cause delamination, which adds reflections and losses, which gets me to where I was on #1.


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## CKOD (May 11, 2011)

Andddd FAIL. The epoxy backfill is getting nixed. Even with the heatsink siting on a desk fan, keeping it cold to the touch, and with the MCPCB bonded with arctic silver, and cured under a 2-ton press for a nice thin layer, the optical epoxy managed to pop the lens off from heating and expansion after just a few cycles. I ran it without the glass on, still on the fan, and felt the epoxy, quickly after shutting off the power supply, it was quite warm, not over 70C on the surface (IPA didnt hiss when I put a drop on) but probably > 50C given how it felt to touch it. So without moving air over it, and being on a cool MCPCB the epoxy very well could overheat :sick2:

In the design I was looking at, the window would be bonded to a holder with NOA which should hold the glass better then the epoxy, and keep it from popping free. But I cant see this having long-term longevity, and possibly adding 4 different chances for reflection/refraction, definitely will hurt matters. (dome-> gap -> epoxy ->gap-> UCL window) Though the dome did stay bonded though the testing. But who knows if the stress of not letting it expand as it wants to could hurt anything. 

I might try and do something with this in a P-60 module with an XR-E or XP-E eventually, and see if anything good comes about, but I'm not risking 36 XM-Ls.

Oh well, time for shens with a short-arc style retroreflectors


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## CKOD (Jun 2, 2011)

More stuff in the mail today!











Doesnt fit though :-/ any idea what I should put in it instead?  *hint* it'll still be related to this light, and its ordered and shipping right now. 

I have a model of the part I'm having machined as the heatsink(in the works now) , but autocad is being a pain, and crashing on opening, so I'll re-install that later and post it up if anyones interested, though its not that much different then the initial renders, just with finalized dimensions.


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## ahorton (Jun 2, 2011)

Spare battery in the case?


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## DM51 (Jun 3, 2011)

LOL, CKOD - that is a very funny pic! Unfortunately, it is too large, so please resize it to comply with Rule 3.


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## CKOD (Jun 3, 2011)

Do'h for some reason I had 800px wide in the head, not 800x800. And Ahorton *almost* smashed it out of the park on the first guess.


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## ahorton (Jun 3, 2011)

Oh I get it! A jar of Pu238.


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## CKOD (Jun 3, 2011)

ahorton said:


> Oh I get it! A jar of Pu238.


 
No Libyan hookups, and no mr fusion, so sticking with


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## CKOD (Jun 8, 2011)

More parts in the mail. A package that got next-day shipped from Hong Kong. I opened it and said





No pics of opening because I tore into it like it was christmas morning, but I did take some pics after it was open. 






2 batteries in 2 holders, next to a 1.25D mag 





put together the cells, flip the holders over so there is tabs on one side, sockets on the other, and you can put the cell pairs together after you press the cells in. Very nice, I wasnt looking forward to trying to fit 10 cells in all at once. 





all lined up





locked together. I had to trim the "feet" on the cell holders, they were too long for the pelican case, so I cut them shorter. They are there to keep conductive things from being able to reach the cell screws. This is going in a plastic case, so no problem. 





in the pelican case. 


Its gonna be wired into a 10S pack, making it 33v nominal, 36v charging, and the cells are 16AH each, or 528 Watt hour, about the same energy capacity as ~50 2900mAh 18650s (($950 in AW 2900's anyone? :duh2: )) I dont think its going on an airplane with that much lithium in it. (even though they just got shipped here on a plane.  )


Before I put together a pack fully, I'm going to be testing cells out, making sure they all are good, around the same capacity etc... putting 4 in series and discharging them with the 100W light emitting resistor that came with the thor, charging with either my cellpro multi4, or cellpro 10S and logging the data. And hopefully just enough room in the pelican case for connectors, a battery management circuit, and mounting hardware.


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## Walterk (Jun 9, 2011)

I see potential.


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## Nos (Jun 9, 2011)

Walterk said:


> I see potential.


 

Yeah its taking shape :thumbsup:


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## TOQ (Jun 9, 2011)

*When this project is completed I ask you to pack it well in a nice hardcase, box it all up with lots of padding and ship it to me overnight express mail. Don't tell me the price as that means I can't afford it. Send me the bill snail mail via Australia, then reroute thru Nepal, on to Guam, and so on. Hopefully the invoice will eventually arrive yet give me time to cough up enough coin to cover it. If I can't I will send you an IOU with one very small drop of my own blood so you will know I won't cheat you, etc. If this works for you, you can just bet it works for me. GREAT PROJECT, wish I had the talent and knowhow to do something like this as I do have "the host" body just like yours but really don't care much for the light that it currently produces. All the best to you with it, hope to see some beamshots when the finished product makes its first venture out into the dark of night...............

Regards..........Terry*


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## CKOD (Jun 9, 2011)

Walterk said:


> I see potential.


subtle battery joke? about 36v of potential? 



TOQ said:


> *When this project is completed I ask you to pack it well in a nice hardcase, box it all up with lots of padding and ship it to me overnight express mail. Don't tell me the price as that means I can't afford it. Send me the bill snail mail via Australia, then reroute thru Nepal, on to Guam, and so on. Hopefully the invoice will eventually arrive yet give me time to cough up enough coin to cover it. If I can't I will send you an IOU with one very small drop of my own blood so you will know I won't cheat you, etc. If this works for you, you can just bet it works for me. GREAT PROJECT, wish I had the talent and knowhow to do something like this as I do have "the host" body just like yours but really don't care much for the light that it currently produces. All the best to you with it, hope to see some beamshots when the finished product makes its first venture out into the dark of night...............
> 
> Regards..........Terry*


 
Sorry, only looking to trade at the moment, oceanfront property in arizona would be slick. 


Charging/discharging 4 batteries at a time to see if they stay fairly even as they discharge etc... So I have a 4S pack hooked upto the original 100W halogen bulb to drain it. Thing just wont die! Been running for 1.2 hours and still at 12.8V!

EDIT: so 4 of those cells in series ran the Thor for ~2 hours and 10-15 minutes, quite a run time. If you get the smaller 10AH version of the cells and you relocated/removed the thor's electronics you could probably fit 4 of them internally on the light.


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## Walterk (Jun 10, 2011)

CKOD said:


> subtle battery joke?



Some irony involved; I expect this to become the most brutal and neat power-pack in CPF history.


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## Walterk (Jul 16, 2011)

Any updates or are you busy soldering...


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## ahorton (Jan 8, 2012)

I'm still hoping to see this thing come alive!


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## 2100 (Jan 10, 2012)

Also waiting patiently for beamshots.  

It's cheating, but 10 XM-Ls budget lights can be had for usd140 shipped. 4000 lumens OTF only, so it runs real cool (10 mins makes it barely warm).


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## RCantor (Jan 22, 2012)

What a great project! While we're waiting for updates, 2100, would you PM me aa link to this 10 XM-L light? Thanks.


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## CKOD (Jan 22, 2012)

Ive been busy moving and being without a lab to fiddle, but I'm finally getting PCB etching equipment in order so I can start playing around with stuff. Ive got a plan for everything overall, just working on the battery management before anything else, which is a bit dry and easy to get distracted from.







I got ahold of a nice work bench on the cheap though so everything can be unpacked and there to remind me to play with it. Now I just need more test equipment for it.

Oh and RCantor, forget a 10 XM-L light, look at the kong 12 http://elektrolumens.com/Kong/Kong-12.html
 
Oh and since the internet loves pictures, I havent been completely idle. I did build a temp PID controller and lighting timer for a pet corn snake I got. 






But getting test equipment, and getting my PCB etching setup working, are whats coming up next so I can work on the BMS.


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