# Maxabeam: how many lumens



## Fred23 (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi,

I 'm comparing my PH40 with the Maxabeam of my colleague.
Of course, beam is not the same.
But by checking the specs of PH40 and Maxabeam, PH40 can give Lumen value, and Maxabeam doesn't.
Who could give me how to calculate for Maxabeam lumens.?

tks


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## pyro (Apr 23, 2009)

Maxabeam is only 1000 bulb lumens.


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## Flashanator (Apr 23, 2009)

I remember emailing peak beams and asking them about this.

They didn't wont to tell me at all, I know its a light all about CP. But on flood mode I wanted to know how much light it dished out.


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## Nos (Apr 23, 2009)

hmmm how many lumens/watt does a xenon short arc produce?


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## Flashanator (Apr 23, 2009)

Dunno, but I read as the wattage goes up so does the lumens per watt.

I see those 1.6kw helicopter XSA lights, tremendous amount of light.


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## karlosk98 (Apr 23, 2009)

Fred23 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I 'm comparing my PH40 with the Maxabeam of my colleague.
> Of course, beam is not the same.
> ...



karltev who visited the factory was told the improved version is 1500 lumens, do to A grade bulbs, while the common is 1000, if I don t mistake.


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## sledhead (Apr 23, 2009)

Fred23 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I 'm comparing my PH40 with the Maxabeam of my colleague.
> Of course, beam is not the same.
> ...



I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the comparison! I have a PH40 also. If you could only have one, which would you choose?
Thanks


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## Patriot (Apr 23, 2009)

I believe it closer to 1600-1800 lumens according to a post by member Ra, which was posted a long time ago. In any case I can promise that it's well over 1000.

I'll go take to some lux measurements and see what I get....


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## Patriot (Apr 23, 2009)

sledhead said:


> I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the comparison! I have a PH40 also. If you could only have one, which would you choose?
> Thanks





At one time I owned the PH40, PH50 and Maxabeam. Although I no longer own the PH40, it's a far more versatile light. The Maxabeam is very specialized and because of the throw that it's capable of it's very unique.

Here is an older thread showing the vast difference between the the PH50 and Maxabeam.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/210201


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## Patriot (Apr 23, 2009)

> *Patriot*
> I'll go take to some lux measurements and see what I get....


*

Ceiling bounce* (integrating bathroom test)

*Jil Eznite 500 lumens 26.8 lux*
*AE24/S 1200 lumens 61.2 lux*
*Xenide 25 1500 lumens 73.1 lux *
*Maxabeam 79.8 lux*
*Mag 85 3C 1500-1700 lumens. 84.5 lux
WiseLED Tactical 1500 lumens. 91.2 lux
K3500R "3500" lumens 144.4 lux
N30 "3200" lumens 152.6 lux (borrowed from my bro)
X990 3200 lumens 154.0 lux
POB 3000+ lumens 159.0 lux
Costco 3000+ lumens 188 peak, settled to 154
PH50 5000+ lumens 530 peak, settled to 368

4 x 26W 1800 lumen Energy Star Fluorescent coils (bathroom lights) 590 lux


*The PH50 overloaded the sensor. I had to adjust the sensitivity range and retry. :laughing: I guess it's safe to say the the Maxabeam is a good 1500+ lumens.


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## karlosk98 (Apr 24, 2009)

sledhead said:


> I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the comparison! I have a PH40 also. If you could only have one, which would you choose?
> Thanks



I don t have neither lights but I plan to purchase first a maxabeam do to its versatility. ( not the one Patriot refers), You dont have the extreme necessity for a second light.

You have three output levels plus 1 to 40 degree beam, that means you can search your tacklebox in low flood or illuminate a tree 2000 yards away with high spot.( you will need a telescope for that)

You cant do that with a ph50.

plus, the laser beam in the maxa is cool. Ra said when he compared it with a hid in front of people, the maxa drew all the attention.

But if you want to iluminate an entire football field then there is no rival for the polarion. It is more practical than the maxabeam in high flood, in that sense.


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## sledhead (Apr 24, 2009)

Patriot: Thanks for the link and your opinion. I missed the PH50 but I am very happy with the 40!

Karlosk98: Love that laser beam shot with the Maxabeam also! The different levels and variable dispersion are definite +'s. I'll have to see a Maxabeam in person someday.


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## Patriot (Apr 24, 2009)

Although the three different power levels could be considered a bonus on the versatility debate, I see the main advantage being the ability to increase run time and nothing else. It's still producing 300-500 lumens on low so it's not exactly a reading or tacklebox light.  I think a person would be much better served by a 5 lumen headlamp for such purposes.

The other problem that I have with the Maxabeam as a "general purpose" sort of utility spotlight is that the 40 degree beam is literally horrible. In fact, it's not very good even at 10 or 15 degrees. The only way to get around this inherent short-arc problem is to purchase the collimating lens which is very expensive. I'd just as soon purchase two or three N30's to accomplish the same purpose as the extra lens on the Maxabeam. 

It is true that the MB attracts more attention than most HID lights because it's so different than what our brains are used to seeing. I think this alone is testimony to how specialized the light really is. I suppose I consider the beam shape of the Polarion to be more versatile than the MB's in the sense that it distributes the light in a way that makes it more useful for the majority of applications. Additionally the PH50 is far more efficient running at 90+ lumens per watt at 50W By comparison the MB produces about 20 lumens per watt at 75W. This is a really notable difference but the price that one pays in order to throw a beam of light remarkably far. 

Lastly, it wouldn't be my first inclination to think of the PH40/50 a flood light. In my mind it is still a throw machine that just happens to have a large corona. The spill of the PH50 isn't even as bright as the Costo HID which reflects more light near your feet. The diffuser cuts the light back into more of a true flood light.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 25, 2009)

I just have to interject my ongoing reservations with trying to calculate lumens when a reflector is involved. It came up recently in this unique Osram Ministar bulb design....but they at least specified candela and beam angle to be able to get in the ballpark.

I don't get why anyone would want to try and find out bulb lumens of a HID spotlight....but that's just me.


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## Patriot (Apr 25, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> I don't get why anyone would want to try and find out bulb lumens of a HID spotlight....but that's just me.




You mean because it's so hit or miss or because they're so bright why bother?


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 25, 2009)

Patriot said:


> You mean because it's so hit or miss or because they're so bright why bother?



Because lumens are not a relevant measurement of a HID bulb, and even less related when an adjustable reflector is involved using the bulb in a spotlight. Pretty much hashed out my points in this thread I keep on my subscriptions list.

Plenty of links in that thread to keep you busy. Also XeRay's site has a good summary of the concepts here. Probably the most relevant is the section titled: "*A comparison of the watt and the lumen illustrates the distinction between radiometric and photometric units*."


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## Patriot (Apr 25, 2009)

Lux, I've spent the last 60 minutes digging into the threads that you've referenced and I'm still lost. Is there any measurement for HID bulbs that is relevant, relative or valid? Even reputable manufacturers like Xeray assign an output specification to their products.

I realize that there is a big difference between the laboratory and a guy who's just trying to understand if one light is going to light up a room brighter than another light. If a person simply wanted to know approximately how many bulb lumens a particular light was producing couldn't a reasonable determination be made based on the bulb manufacturer's data at a given wattage? 

The integrating sphere appears to be the correct/proper device for measuring lumens based in lux....(I think) A light box is a rough replication of the integrating sphere and the ceiling bounce or room illumination test is a still rougher version of the light box. Since a light meter is capable of measuring the overall amount of photons bouncing around within a space, can't it show the relative differences between different lights? If it can reveal the relative differences can't those differences be assigned values and if so what should those values be measured in?

I think the whole point of the integrating sphere and other indirect measuring methods seeks to remove the anomalous effects of reflectors. Other than different loss rates due to differences in reflector coatings isn't the indirect method of measurement fairly reliable?


I think you know me well enough Lux, but to anyone who may be thinking this post is a challenge to the previous post, it's not. LuxLuthor is very knowledgeable and well versed on this topic and I hope to gain some insight from my questions...while realizing that they all overlap a bit. Thanks Lux


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 26, 2009)

Patriot, my good friend (seriously)...it is a shame that it is so time consuming and rather tedious to sort through what I know people want as a simple answer. I greatly respect you for being one of the few willing to spend some time seeing it is not as straight forward as everyone normally thinks.

On the one hand, you can get "seat of the pants" relative comparisons if you use something like a ceiling bounce test...but it assumes that your light is positioned at the same starting spot, aimed at the same spot as one you are comparing with, has a relatively similar beam pattern (& hotspot, corona, spill, etc.) as well as same position of light meter taking reading, no difference in ambient lighting, etc.

The important thing to understand with lumens is the specifics on how precisely it is defined. When you realize that, you begin to see that a HID bulb put into an adjustable reflector (of variable reflecting quality) like the MaxaBeam uses doesn't make sense to describe in lumens, because you are dealing with a directional light output. 

That is also why Osram listed output of new Ministar bulb (I linked thread above) in Candela + beam angle (which together can give a ballpark lumen conversion).



> The integrating sphere appears to be the correct/proper device for measuring lumens based in lux....(I think) A light box is a rough replication of the integrating sphere and the ceiling bounce or room illumination test is a still rougher version of the light box. Since a light meter is capable of measuring the overall amount of photons bouncing around within a space, can't it show the relative differences between different lights? If it can reveal the relative differences can't those differences be assigned values and if so what should those values be measured in?


The Integrating Sphere is the "Gold Standard" but the size required to measure an entire light + reflector without it interfering with the necessary even dispersion is nearly impossible, and certainly impractical...so manufacturers give ballpark claims of questionable results. You could just put in the HID bulb itself, but you still would need to make estimates of the secondary effect of the reflector.

The light box and ceiling bounce inventions here at CPF were ways for people to try and approach the I.S. concept without spending the huge amount for those (IS) devices. However, the light does not reflect and disperse completely and randomly in a box, ceiling, or any non-spherical setup. Of course they can be used for relative ballpark comparisons, but people toss out results in lumens like they really are that absolute value.

Ideally, if you start with an LED or incan bulb that has been rigorously measured at a certain conservative voltage and bulb age _(output drops significantly with many bulbs I tested proportional to degree of voltage overdrive and time run)_, you could use that as a reference point in comparisons.

I don't know what the actual measurements (or how they were done) are of various HID bulbs that you referenced (Maybe XeRay knows), but if it was expressed in (I.S. verified) raw HID bulb lumens, it becomes a whole other ballpark once you interface it with a specific regulated ballast voltage/current output and reflector/lens setup.

As you know, the idea of pointing a spotlight/flashlight at a wall, and taking beam readings with a light meter at any distance is extremely problematic, based upon placement in the hotspot, corona, spill...and it still not taking all the dispersed output into account.



> I think the whole point of the integrating sphere and other indirect measuring methods seeks to remove the anomalous effects of reflectors. Other than different loss rates due to differences in reflector coatings isn't the indirect method of measurement fairly reliable?


I would be very surprised to find that an entire spotlight has been inserted into a very large ($$$$$$) I.S. for an accurate total package measurement. There are way too many variables to say that any other "indirect method" is reliable. Even with a ceiling bounce, the issue of light meter placement and gradation of bulb's light concentration coming out of a reflector will not be reliable.

Shine any of your lights in a ceiling bounce manner, and note the variations in hotspot, corona, spill, etc. At what placement is the light meter going to be the same reliable reading from light to light, since they all have different beam patterns?


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## Patriot (Apr 26, 2009)

Hmm, ok that makes sense. ..... which part right? lol. 

Well, all of it is understandable Lux so thanks for taking the time. 

It is often hard to guess how many lumens a light might be producing. I'm not sure how accurate people really need the numbers to be but for my own purposes I could settle with a 10-15% percent error rate. I don't personally need figures to be any closer than that for general discussion. 

I think it's mostly safe to assume that if two different HID lights are tested in a ceiling bounce test and one of them produces a higher lux reading on the light meter, then it is indeed producing more light.....err...lumens. It would be helpful if we could verify a few lights as being standard references. For example, if we knew positively that three Xenide25's averaged 1485 lumens and produced an "X" reading on the light meter, we'd then have a starting point to calculate from regarding other similar lights. Obviously this would only be valid for each tester since everyone's lightbox is different. In other words, everyone would need to own a Xenide25w in order to share results with the rest of us.

I think you're right in suspecting that many HID's, like XeRay's for example, output figures are based on predicted figures according to the bulb, ballast and whatever losses there are. So I'm guessing it's just a calculation of sorts.

Anyhow, interesting discussion.

Way past my bed time. :tired:


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## karlthev (Apr 26, 2009)

Just found this...let me give it a read..or two. I'll have to look up what I may have found out last year in my trip to Peak Beam. Don't look for any "technical" discussion from me however....as all know by now..


Karl


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## FRITZHID (May 16, 2012)

yeah i know.... years old thread.... but i had a thought as i was thumbing thru Maxabeam threads.....
as far as IS's go.... from what u understand, a IS should be a perfect sphere, with the source and receiver being at certen angles, and that the interior should be "white???".... why not a total mirror or atleast be an OP of some type? woulden't that make a better overall reflective reference for output?


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## ma_sha1 (May 16, 2012)

I like keep things simple. xenon short arc in this power range only has efficiency of 20lumen/watt. I.e. Gen II 75W max, ~1500 bulb lumens, Gen II 85W max, ~1700 bulb lumens.,


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## bshanahan14rulz (May 16, 2012)

specular reflections may create hotspots that can skew the data. I think the white coating reflects a high percentage of light while also diffusing the reflections so that the entire sphere is lit evenly. From there, you can take how many lumens hit the area of the sensor, do the maths to figure out how many lumens hit the entire interior surface, blah blah blah

Speaking of the maxabeam, I rewatched Jurassic Park last weekend


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## Colonel Sanders (May 18, 2012)

All I can add, as a Maxabeam owner, is that it looks like a helluvalot more lumens when it's shining _at_ you than _by_ you!


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## FRITZHID (May 18, 2012)

Colonel Sanders said:


> All I can add, as a Maxabeam owner, is that it looks like a helluvalot more lumens when it's shining _at_ you than _by_ you!



damn right! rather take the stanley or even my Hand-Sun H.I.D to the eyes than my MB! that thing hurts!


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## Ra (May 21, 2012)

ma_sha1 said:


> I like keep things simple. xenon short arc in this power range only has efficiency of 20lumen/watt. I.e. Gen II 75W max, ~1500 bulb lumens, Gen II 85W max, ~1700 bulb lumens.,



I think you meant "Gen III 85W max,..."


Regards, Ra.


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## PhillyRube (May 21, 2012)

OK, while this has been resurrected, how do I bump up my Gen 1 MB? I have seen someone selling small connector caps for different bulbs, but really can't get enough info to make a decision. Peakbeam has been great as far as customer service on my oldie (bought during the group buy in 2005), but I am now in need of a new battery pack, and have though about going further, but now we're talking almost a grand for that. I'm powering mine now with a SLA sling pack and cig plug. I use this at least once a week (last Saturday night at a double shooting), and I'd like to go back to the handheld package.


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## ma_sha1 (May 21, 2012)

Ra said:


> I think you meant "Gen III 85W max,..."
> Regards, Ra.



Yes, Gen III, sorry for the typo.
Welcome back Ra, curious as what telescope you made while MIA from CPF?


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## ma_sha1 (May 21, 2012)

PhillyRube said:


> OK, while this has been resurrected, how do I bump up my Gen 1 MB? I have seen someone selling small connector caps for different bulbs, but really can't get enough info to make a decision. Peakbeam has been great as far as customer service on my oldie (bought during the group buy in 2005), but I am now in need of a new battery pack, and have though about going further, but now we're talking almost a grand for that. I'm powering mine now with a SLA sling pack and cig plug. I use this at least once a week (last Saturday night at a double shooting), and I'd like to go back to the handheld package.



Are you sure it's gen I? Never seen anyone has a Gen I. I think 2005 might be Gen II, can upgrade to Gen III lamp w/o adapter. 
You can cut open the battery box & put in a 6AH 12.6V Lifepo4 pack for $99 + a new smart charger $24. There's room to reduce battery box height by 1", making it low profile.


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## BVH (May 21, 2012)

Yeah, gotta agree with Ma, that's got to be a Gen2 from that date. You can get new genuine Peakbeam Gen3 bulbs on Ebay from a particular seller for about $100 IIRC plus shipping. He's got a bunch. Search for Maxabeam bulbs. Just a note that even though they are Gen3 bulbs, there is a newer bulb being used by Peakbeam now. The big difference is going from the stick bulb with tubular arc chamber to a round arc chamber. Significant difference in the beam.


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## FRITZHID (May 21, 2012)

BVH said:


> Yeah, gotta agree with Ma, that's got to be a Gen2 from that date. You can get new genuine Peakbeam Gen3 bulbs on Ebay from a particular seller for about $100 IIRC plus shipping. He's got a bunch. Search for Maxabeam bulbs. Just a note that even though they are Gen3 bulbs, there is a newer bulb being used by Peakbeam now. *The big difference is going from the stick bulb with tubular arc chamber to a round arc chamber. Significant difference in the beam.*



thats an understatement!


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## PhillyRube (May 28, 2012)

What's the difference? Beamshots??


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## bshanahan14rulz (May 29, 2012)

A tubular arc chamber will diffract the image of the arc to varying degrees depending on the viewing angle. Since the reflector takes a range of viewing angles, the thing it is trying to image will see varying degrees of refraction at different angles, leading to a less well focused beam. Think kind of how if you look at an object through a piece of glass at a sharp angle, the object appears to have changed in its location in space.

A round chamber minimizes this effect, since at any angle within the lamp's viewing angle the light is hitting the surface of the round chamber at a normal of ~90 degrees. Kind of like how if you look straight through a piece of glass at an object on the other side, the object will appear to be where it actually is.


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## Calibu (Mar 25, 2014)

Nos said:


> hmmm how many lumens/watt does a xenon short arc produce?



HID 50 watt (with ™XeStrike™ and D1S) 100 lumens/watt


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## FelmarCorp (Mar 26, 2014)

BVH said:


> Yeah, gotta agree with Ma, that's got to be a Gen2 from that date. You can get new genuine Peakbeam Gen3 bulbs on Ebay from a particular seller for about $100 IIRC plus shipping. He's got a bunch. Search for Maxabeam bulbs. Just a note that even though they are Gen3 bulbs, there is a newer bulb being used by Peakbeam now. The big difference is going from the stick bulb with tubular arc chamber to a round arc chamber. Significant difference in the beam.



How hard is it to switch out the bulb?


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## FRITZHID (Mar 26, 2014)

Just a few Allen screws, remove front lens and anode wire, pull bulb, put new bulb in, reassemble and then center the bulb using the x/y adjustment.


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## Echo63 (Mar 26, 2014)

FRITZHID said:


> Just a few Allen screws, remove front lens and anode wire, pull bulb, put new bulb in, reassemble and then center the bulb using the x/y adjustment.


And try not to snap the clip off the end of the anode wire ! (I may have done this to my Gen2 MB - still haven't got around to sending it back to peakbeam, good thing I still have a Gen3 to play with)

and I already asked, it can't be soldered, the connection gets hot enough to melt solder, needs to be spot welded or crimped like the factory connection - its a pretty cheap part to buy, but shipping with insurance to the US and back to Oz is the issue (that and I have been slack)


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## BVH (Mar 26, 2014)

What about Silver solder? It has a higher melting point.

From a forum post:

Solder goes liquious at 450f*

Silver(45%) melts at about 1100to1200

15% silfoss at 1250 ti 1300.

Go here to see melting points of many solders:

http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Technical-Documents.aspx

I can tell you that in my experience with conventional short arc lamps and the Cermax type, no manufacturer wants to see lamp base temps exceed 250C and I would guess that MB bases would not see more than the 250C temp. So silver solder should work fine.


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## FelmarCorp (Mar 29, 2014)

Regarding the Gen 2 and Gen 3 bulbs..
Its hard to tell what the bulb looks like from just looking thru the lens, I may need to open it up to see the bulb.

Is there a way to know what kind of bulb it has without opening it? Anything on the actual unit that would identify the bulb type ?


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## BVH (Mar 29, 2014)

If you can't tell from the outside, then no, there's no markings etc. to tell you. I just looked at mine with its Gen3 lamp and if I wasn't familiar with both, it might be difficult to tell what I had based on our descriptions. The round chamber is way back just before the reflector hole and with all the reflections and clear quartz, even I had to look close to see the round chamber.


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## FelmarCorp (Mar 31, 2014)

Thanks..

yea...very tough to see..I'll probably take the lens off and maybe it will be easier to tell.


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## Echo63 (Mar 31, 2014)

BVH said:


> What about Silver solder? It has a higher melting point.
> 
> From a forum post:
> 
> ...



Peak beam said solder will melt, I didn't specifically ask about silver solder.
im not sure my soldering iron will handle the higher melting point though


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