# Cold Steels Knives



## Hitthespot (Mar 1, 2008)

Are Cold Steel's Knives as good as they claim they are. I was just on their site and I never heard of any of the steels they use.

What is everyones opinion?

Thanks

Bill


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## fnmag (Mar 1, 2008)




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## Hitthespot (Mar 1, 2008)

fnmag said:


>


 
Oh no I didn't open a can a worms did I? I never gave that a thought when I typed in my question.

Bill


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## Paladin (Mar 1, 2008)

In the last few years the country of origin for many of their old standbys has changed. I go out of my way to avoid products produced in low wage, poor QA regions. My older Cold Steels have worked well for me, I like their Kobun boot knife, Trailmaster bowie, and especially my "made in usa" Recon Tanto.

Paladin


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## THE PUNISHER (Mar 1, 2008)

THE NEW COLD STEEL QUALITY IZ CRAP..........:sigh:


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## Lightraven (Mar 1, 2008)

I carry a Safemaker I as a backup weapon to my handgun on and off duty. As a sharp piece of steel with a rubber handle, it seems up to the job.


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## Monocrom (Mar 1, 2008)

Hitthespot said:


> Oh no I didn't open a can a worms did I? I never gave that a thought when I typed in my question.
> 
> Bill


 
You threw a barrel of gasoline on a ragging inferno! 

Topics about C.S. knives often turn very ugly on BladeForums. 


Lynn Thompson over-hypes much of his product line. Carbon V, for example, is not some Super Steel exclusive to C.S.

Someone once bought a Carbon V blade, and sent it to a lab for testing. Turns out, it's nothing more than a fairly common carbon steel with a very good heat treat. Hell, Camillus was the company that made Carbon V blades *for *C.S. (Until the day Camillus went out of business)! 

The other problem? Lynn Thompson is considered by many to be little more than an @$$. He over-hypes his products by blatantly insulting his competitors. And, he likes to blatantly rip-off popular designs from his competitors, makes them cheaper, and then actually refers to _them_, as rip-off artists. (Like he recently did with Mick Strider and his fixed-blade Tanto design. Strider is far from squeaky clean. Far from it. But many folks consider Thompson to be lower than him. And that's saying alot).

A lot of us who are into knives, refuse to buy C.S. products because we don't want Thompson getting our hard-earned money. There are folks on CPF who'll buy lights from Communist China, but not knives from C.S. (And I'm one of them).

That says alot when folks would prefer to buy from China, than from one particular America company. 

Truth is, C.S. knives are generally good quality. I owned a few of them years ago. Can't say if the quality has gotten better or worse in recent years. I also like some of the company's designs..... Well, the ones that weren't blatantly ripped off from others.


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## Russianesq (Mar 1, 2008)

*CS knives looks pretty, have nice specs but .....* :thumbsdow


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## Illum (Mar 1, 2008)

Hitthespot said:


> Oh no I didn't open a can a worms did I? I never gave that a thought when I typed in my question.
> 
> Bill



after reading Monocrom's post, talk about hitting the spot:thumbsup:
:Thanks: for the warning Monocrom


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## Monocrom (Mar 1, 2008)

Illum_the_nation said:


> after reading Monocrom's post, talk about hitting the spot:thumbsup:
> :Thanks: for the warning Monocrom


 
No problem. 

I'm hoping this thread doesn't degrade horribly.


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## Burgess (Mar 1, 2008)

to Monocrom --


Thank you for the information and insight.


:twothumbs
_


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## Hitthespot (Mar 1, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> No problem.
> 
> I'm hoping this thread doesn't degrade horribly.


 
Yea, Me too. I have a number of very good quality knives. I even own a number of Randalls. I have never been a member of any knife forums or even bothered to go to many knife web sites. I have just always enjoyed knives and bought what I heard was good and what I liked. However I did go to the Cold Steel site after remembering claims they used to make years ago. That's what prompted the question. I was just wondering if people considered them a great knife manufacturer or little more than a fad. I really didn't know. 

Anyway thanks for the post Monocrom. I believe that pretty much sums it up. If I could close the thread myself I would.

Thanks

Bill


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## yaesumofo (Mar 1, 2008)

I own and carry a cold steel recon one. a tanto folder.
It is one hell of a tough knife.
It isn't a custom. it is a very good knife.
They are a USA based company (Ventura, California).
They produce a good quality knife.
The one I have is a Japanese made unit. 
The blade is very nice and holds an edge.
For a value for $$ knife product the Cold Steel company produces a fine product.
Yaesumofo


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## Hitthespot (Mar 1, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> No problem.
> 
> I'm hoping this thread doesn't degrade horribly.


 
Yea, Me too. I have a number of very good quality knives. I even own a number of Randalls. I have never been a member of any knife forums or even bothered to go to many knife web sites. I have just always enjoyed knives and bought what I heard was good and what I liked. However I did go to the Cold Steel site after remembering claims they used to make years ago. That's what prompted the question. I was just wondering if people considered them a great knife manufacturer or little more than a fad. I really didn't know. 

Anyway thanks for the post Monocrom. I believe that pretty much sums it up. If I could close the thread myself I would.

Thanks

Bill


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## Monocrom (Mar 1, 2008)

*To: Hitthespot ~*

Glad I was able to answer your questions. It's your thread, and it's up to you if you really want it closed or left open.

Just PM a moderator if you think it would be best to close the thread.


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## BillG (Mar 2, 2008)

cant say anything about their whole lineup....but....i own a couple of voyager folders and they have held up well. i like them and wouldn't hesitate to recommend the voyager line.

That is.........if they still use aus 8 steel. mine do but they are about 15yrs old.

Bill


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## iTorch (Mar 2, 2008)

I have two CS, a tanto and a tanto folder with san mai steel, both are about 17-or 18 years old, both are excellant knives, do not know about the new stuff, it looks ok, but now i prefer custom stuff...


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## DonShock (Mar 2, 2008)

iTorch said:


> .... a tanto folder with san mai steel, both are about 17-or 18 years old, both are excellant knives......


Those old CS Shinobu folders (tanto blades) and their Clip Mate cousins (clip point blades) are the only knives I've ever had any real affinity for. I can't seem to pass them up when I see one for sale at a decent price. Most other knives don't have any special appeal for me.


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## Patriot (Mar 3, 2008)

I have several full custom made knives and even more factory knives. I've owned CS for about 14 years and I've never had one fail or perform poorly. I'm an outdoor enthusiast and archery hunter and I'm picky about blade performance. I've been completely satisfied with their knives and have owned about 18-20 of them over the years. I believe that the value of their knives is unsurpassed. Many hunting friends want to know what kind of knife I'm using when we've been been field dressing or skinning elk...then they end up buying the same knife. 

Hey, there are many good factory knives out there and I definitely think that CS can be included in that group.

I'll post a pic of my newest one later..........


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## KeyGrip (Mar 3, 2008)

Cold Steel's general quality has gone downhill as of late. They still make good knives, but one would be wise to do research on a particular model before buying. Also, consider Spyderco, Kershaw, or Benchmade as well. Those three represent to me the best of the mid to upper level knife manufacturers today.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Mar 3, 2008)

Just avoid their overpriced VG-1 San Mai III blades and you'll be fine. Their high-carbon blades ( called SK-5 now, which is Japanese steel ) are pretty darn good blades for the money, eventough their carbon steel knives are no longer made in the USA. Also their axes and shovels are a great bargain and should perform very well for outdoors people. Now of course, Lynn Thompson is a scumbag and I totally understand people refusing to give Cold Steel a single nickel.


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## PhantomPhoton (Mar 4, 2008)

I'd also say, in general, CS knives aren't as good as their old models- which actually were pretty decent for the price. I've personally been always put off by CS's over the top and just plain dumb marketing and have never given them much thought.


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## Hitthespot (Mar 4, 2008)

KeyGrip said:


> Cold Steel's general quality has gone downhill as of late. They still make good knives, but one would be wise to do research on a particular model before buying. Also, consider Spyderco, Kershaw, or Benchmade as well. Those three represent to me the best of the mid to upper level knife manufacturers today.


 

I have owned a number of Kershaw's and have been extremely happy with their steel. I see there is considerable noise about the Spyderco knives but I can't seem to get past the looks of them.

Bill


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## 276 (Mar 16, 2008)

i have a number of C.S. knives & have no problems with them I am a sogknives man by heart


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## Alero (Mar 21, 2008)

I bought a cold steel bowie-style 7" knife about 15 years ago. I don't use it much at all. It had an INCREDIBLE edge when it was new and it held the edge for a LONG time.
But once it got dull, I found that it's nearly impossible to re-sharpen. Even knife sharpening pros are boggled by it. Some of them tols me it's because it's made from cheap steel, but I don't know about that. All I know is that my Carbon-V knife sits in a drawer with a rather unspectacular edge because no one can get it sharp again.


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## Monocrom (Mar 22, 2008)

Alero said:


> I bought a cold steel bowie-style 7" knife about 15 years ago. I don't use it much at all. It had an INCREDIBLE edge when it was new and it held the edge for a LONG time.
> But once it got dull, I found that it's nearly impossible to re-sharpen. Even knife sharpening pros are boggled by it. Some of them tols me it's because it's made from cheap steel, but I don't know about that. All I know is that my Carbon-V knife sits in a drawer with a rather unspectacular edge because no one can get it sharp again.


 
Like I posted above, Carbon V is actually a rather common carbon steel; but not as common as good old 1095. I wish I could remember what it was; but it's considered higher quality than 1095.

Rather than being made frrom cheap steel, it's more likely that your knife was improperly heat treated. That's the thing.... a poor heat treat can turn even a high-grade blade steel into nearly junk.


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## jzmtl (Mar 22, 2008)

I thought carbon V is what CS calls whatever their supplier use at the moment, and at times it is 1095.


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## Monocrom (Mar 22, 2008)

jzmtl said:


> I thought carbon V is what CS calls whatever their supplier use at the moment, and at times it is 1095.


 
I've heard that as well. But I consider it more of a rumor since no real evidence of that exists. If it were true, it seems odd that Thompson would abandon the Carbon V label; especially after all the hype he's given it. Instead, he admits that it's no longer available, and even makes mention of SK-5 now being used in many of ColdSteel's best known designs.


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## jbosman1013 (Mar 23, 2008)

Carbon V was supplied to CS by camillus and now that they are gone :mecry:carbon V is no more. You can still find a carbon V blade but its not easy, I have 2 FB in this steel and it does live up to the hype and I just checked camillus is coming back!!!!!!


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## Monocrom (Mar 23, 2008)

jbosman1013 said:


> Carbon V was supplied to CS by camillus and now that they are gone :mecry:carbon V is no more. You can still find a carbon V blade but its not easy, I have 2 FB in this steel and it does live up to the hype and I just checked camillus is coming back!!!!!!


 
The actual Camillus, or just some dude who bought the name; and will have knives made under that name? You know..... like what happened to Schrade Cutlery. 

Speaking of hype, like I posted earlier; it's not some super steel exclusive to one company. It's a fairly common carbon steel with a very good heat treat. As such, there are other steels in the Carbon Family that will perform just as well (with a proper heat treat) at a lower price.


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## jbosman1013 (Mar 23, 2008)

yeah its too bad it now owned or ran by "Acme united corporation" it just makes it sound like its going to be cheap.


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## yaesumofo (Mar 25, 2008)

My Recon One was made with AUS 8 steel (in Japan) (I was told that the Japanese blades were superior to the us version of the same thing). This knife 8 or 10 years old and has held up amazingly well.
Since I am not a person who frequents knife sites much (I really can't commit to another hobby) I have never heard of the players involved at CS. Most likely best that way. As it is I could care less. All I know is that I bought this knife cheap (under $50.00) years ago and that it holds an amazing edge is easy to open and does the job at hand. Oh and it is black...all black except for the edge of the blade which is the color of shiny steel and blood...Just kidding about the blood I always remove all trace of blood from my knives because it is so corrosive.
Yaesumofo


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## Monocrom (Mar 25, 2008)

Let me know if you ever want the details to the drama that is C.S.

It's far from pretty.....


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## NA8 (Mar 25, 2008)

Carbon V, the mysterious steel  I was reading and bookmarking these pages the other day, so here you are. 

Here's one take: 

http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/blade_materials.html#C_50100B

and Joe Talmadge's take: 

http://www.knifeart.com/steelfaqbyjo.html

"Carbon V Carbon V is a trademarked term by Cold Steel, and as such is not necessarily one particular kind of steel; rather, it describes whatever steel Cold Steel happens to be using, and there is an indication they do change steels from time to time. Carbon V performs roughly between 1095-ish and O-1-ish, in my opinion, and rusts like O-1 as well. I've heard rumors that Carbon V is O-1 (which I now think is unlikely) or 1095. Numerous industry insiders insist it is 0170-6. Some spark tests done by a rec.knives reader seem to point the finger at 50100-B. Since 50100-B and 0170-6 are the same steel (see below), this is likely the current Carbon V.

0170-6 - 50100-B These are different designations for the same steel: 0170-6 is the steel makers classification, 50100-B is the AISI designation. A good chrome-vanadium steel that is somewhat similar to O-1, but much less expensive. The now-defunct Blackjack made several knives from O170-6, and Carbon V may be 0170-6. 50100 is basically 52100 with about 1/3 the chromium of 52100, and the B in 50100-B indicates that the steel has been modified with vanadium, making this a chrome-vanadium steel."



All that aside, I've got an OLD Cold Steel SRK that has "Made in USA" stamped on the blade. If that means it's made by Camillus, even a fairly common carbon steel with a very good heat treat, I'm ok with that. I never really took the marketing hype too seriously, I tend to tune that stuff out. I couldn't tell you who's advertising at the top of this page. The gun show price was right (~$38), it had a thick blade, a kraton handle, and a simple design that beat out a bunch of knives from Kabar and Ontario sitting nearby.


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## Monocrom (Mar 25, 2008)

Yup, 0170-6. That's the steel that the independent testing company found after testing the Carbon V blade that was privately purchased. 

Thanks for finding and posting that, NA8.

Considering what a Carbon V SRK used to retail for, some folks weren't too happy when they discovered that most of the knife was actually made by Camillus. Not because Camillus has a bad rep., but because the knife would have sold for nearly half; with Camillus stamped on the blade.


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## Hitthespot (Mar 25, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> Yup, 0170-6. That's the steel that the independent testing company found after testing the Carbon V blade that was privately purchased.
> 
> Thanks for finding and posting that, NA8.
> 
> Considering what a Carbon V SRK used to retail for, some folks weren't too happy when they discovered that most of the knife was actually made by Camillus. Not because Camillus has a bad rep., but because the knife would have sold for nearly half; with Camillus stamped on the blade.


 
AND that is exactly what I fugured when I originally posted this thread. I remembered a long time ago when they first came out, (at least I think it was Cold Steel ) they were running their tanto through the door of a car and making all kinds of super claims. I was buying Randalls at the time and remember reading something that Randall had posted in their catalog that went something like this, "As you have, we've heard of fancy claims about "secret" ingredients in steel and "secret" heat treating methods. There is no magic method of making steel for cutlery that can equal our modern, scientific, carefully controlled process." Now I may be completely wrong but I always believed that Randall had this in their catalog because of the claims Cold Steel was making when they first came out. So I wondering 15 years later if the claims were true or if cold steel just ended up being another knife. This thread definitely answered my questions.

Bill


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## NA8 (Mar 25, 2008)

I think you guys took the Carbon V advertising way too seriously. I recall a lot of thin, stainless steel knives back then. Cold Steel just said we've got a thicker, tougher, full tang knife made out of carbon steel. 20 years later, we see a lot of knives made out of thick, carbon steels. The hype was over the top apparently, but their basic idea is still seeing a lot of use today.


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## Monocrom (Mar 26, 2008)

NA8 said:


> I think you guys took the Carbon V advertising way too seriously. I recall a lot of thin, stainless steel knives back then. Cold Steel just said we've got a thicker, tougher, full tang knife made out of carbon steel. 20 years later, we see a lot of knives made out of thick, carbon steels. The hype was over the top apparently, but their basic idea is still seeing a lot of use today.


 
It's an idea that existed long before Lynn Thompson began mentioning it. He was just more "vocal" about it.

Yet another idea he "borrowed" from the Custom Knifemakers community.


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## NA8 (Mar 26, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> It's an idea that existed long before Lynn Thompson began mentioning it. He was just more "vocal" about it.
> 
> Yet another idea he "borrowed" from the Custom Knifemakers community.




Agreed.


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## 98k Plinker (Apr 3, 2008)

I own a Cold Steel entry level zytel handled Ti-Lite, with the AUS-8 blade, have had it for over a year now, is by far my favorite knife and my EDC. have bought many knives since in my quest to replace it. but its still the one thats in my pocket.


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## sween1911 (Apr 4, 2008)

I have an old Carbon V marked Cold Steel SRK (Circa early 90's) that is still near and dear to my heart. 

Other than that, I think it's just been too much hype. The whole "Wave" controversy about knives that can be opened by pulling them out of the pocket, whether or not infringes on Emerson's patent, I think has been done to death, but it casts a shadow over CS stuff for me. Heck, I even bought a Ti-Lite because of the demonstration in the "Proof" DVD (it was on clearance from Special Products for like 40-some bucks) before I became an Emerson fan. IMHO, reading all the new folder designs feels like we're being sold a bunch of razzle dazzle rebranded cr*p.

It's a shame that they couldn't build on the solid reputation they once had with the kraton handled fixed blades. The Trailmaster, Recon Scout/Tanto, SRK are still classics to me.


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## kaichu dento (Apr 5, 2008)

The two Cold Steel products I would endorse with no hesitation are the LTC Kukri, of which I have at least half a dozen still, and the Trailmaster (mine are all Carbon V).

I've been using them since '91 for trail work all the way up to cutting small to medium trees and although they look terrible (at least to the collectors), they have made my trail work a joy for 17 winters here in Alaska as a snowmobile guide in charge of trail improvements and maintenance.

I should add that what I like so much about these two knives, even more than the steel, is understanding that went into the balancing of the blades for chopping and heavy cutting purposes. The handles/grips are excellent too and I have swung them both many hours in the dark and cold with no grip problems.


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## Monocrom (Apr 5, 2008)

kaichu dento said:


> The two Cold Steel products I would endorse with no hesitation are the LTC Kukri, of which I have at least half a dozen still, and the Trailmaster (mine are all Carbon V)....
> 
> .... The handles/grips are excellent too and I have swung them both many hours in the dark and cold with no grip problems.


 
The Trailmaster I can understand. But I know folks who have complained that the kraton handles tend to seperate from the tang on the LTC after awhile. Due to the soft kraton handles being directly affixed to the tang, with no reinforcement.


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## kaichu dento (Apr 5, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> The Trailmaster I can understand. But I know folks who have complained that the kraton handles tend to seperate from the tang on the LTC after awhile. Due to the soft kraton handles being directly affixed to the tang, with no reinforcement.


Having been using LTC's for 17 years with no problems I can't imagine what a person would have to do to get the handle to come off.

I've got a couple that have the handles worn smooth from usage and have cut numerous trees with them to the point of having a friend spell me.

Must be something in the manner of usage, but I still enthusiastically recommend the Trailmaster and LTC.


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## Monocrom (Apr 5, 2008)

kaichu dento said:


> Having been using LTC's for 17 years with no problems I can't imagine what a person would have to do to get the handle to come off.


 
The complaints were of just heavy, but normal use.


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## Buster Bodine (Apr 5, 2008)

I've got a very old, mid-80s production "Recon Tanto" that's having some Kraton problems.

In fairness, I have to emphasize that in those days, a "Recon Tanto" was actually a normal CS Tanto that in some way failed QC testing and was then bead blasted and sold as an unmarked (but distinguishable) Factory Second.

Having said that, the Kraton on this knife that I've used the hell out of for the best part of 20 years is starting to "weep." I really don't know how to describe it better than that, the rubber seems to be breaking down and getting kind of gummy. I suppose one of these days, I'll find some custom maker able and willing to put a custom micarta grip on it and I'll return the knife to service. The grind lines aren't perfect, which is why it was declared a 2nd to start with but I've gotten years of incredibly hard service out of this knife.

I also have a Trailmaster that's about 3 years old and I love the thing dearly. I own a few very nice customs but when I go for a hike in the woods, this is the one that gets strapped on my belt.

As to all the Lynn Thompson "controvery" I just have to say, "Who cares?"

I've never met a car salesman I really liked but that didn't stop me from buying the car I wanted, ya know?

YMMV.


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## kaichu dento (Apr 5, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> The complaints were of just heavy, but normal use.


No idea who was saying that they've had these problems, but I suspect it may be more along the lines of hearsay since I have put mine through very heavy usage and have many friends with them who have never had any grip problems. 

One lives on my snowmachine permanently and I have a belt carry one, as well as several others, some of which I've used and a couple that are still brand new.

On the Lynn Thompson subject; good quality products and I cannot affect his profit margin by buying something else.

I choose by the product but after years of hoping to find something I like as well as the Trailmaster and LTC, they all are lacking.


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## Monocrom (Apr 6, 2008)

Buster Bodine said:


> As to all the Lynn Thompson "controvery" I just have to say, "Who cares?"


 
Actually, many of us do. Integrity, and especially a lack of it, actually matters to some.... me included.


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## NoFair (Apr 6, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> You threw a barrel of gasoline on a ragging inferno!
> 
> Topics about C.S. knives often turn very ugly on BladeForums.
> 
> ...


 
+1 

Well spoken:thumbsup:

Sverre


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## Buster Bodine (Apr 10, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> Actually, many of us do. Integrity, and especially a lack of it, actually matters to some.... me included.


 
Well, I am not completely without integrity myself and when presented with the choice, I certainly prefer to deal with honorable and upstanding people.

But...

Without going into any great detail, I have dealt with many custom knife makers over the years and have dealt personally with most of the guys who own the big companies. I won't be so tacky as to drop names, I'll just say, you know their names, they know mine.

And having said that, I'll say this.

If I chose to deal only with successful businessmen who had never done anything that could be perceived as anything but perfectly honorable and above board, I would be able to deal with no one.

I could name an easy dozen conflicts between makers large and small, some you know of, some you may not. What is important to understand is that in each of these instances, each party believes themselves to be the agrieved party. Each has supporters, each has detractors. Those supporters and detractors all believe themselves to hold the moral high ground.

When you take a stance, there are three certainties.

1. You will never have all the facts and the odds of choosing the right side are 50/50. (Are you willing to make enemies based on the toss of a coin?)

2. By "choosing sides" you will make some friends and some enemies. (I know, I've made plenty of both for myself over the years.) The friendships are fairly fleeting but the enemies hate you forever.

3. No matter which "side" you choose, there are almost never any angels in the fight.

So for myself, after a solid ten years of being involved in these issues up to my eyeballs, and paying far too dearly for it, I've decided to go back to the basics. Back to the fundamentals of business. Which of course can be summed up by one question...

*Are the goods worth the price charged?*

If so, buy.

If not, pass on by.

You see, that is the only indisputable proof of integrity you will ever find in business or anywhere else.

And for believing that, I am looked down upon as one who cares not for honor.

Kinda funny really.

As always, YMMV.


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## Monocrom (Apr 10, 2008)

*To: Buster Bodine ~*

You raise some valid points. For me, and more than a few others, L.T. is just way too over the top in everything he does. 

Nothing tacky in mentioning names of individuals who did you wrong. Especially if you were blatantly ripped-off or cheated by a certain custom knifemaker. Heck, it would help others by causing them not to be cheated by the same person. I've dealt with only 3 custom knifemakers over the years. One of them cheated me. He's still in business, but far from successful. 

But there's nothing wrong in going by quality. Or lack thereof....


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## TigerhawkT3 (Apr 11, 2008)

The other Cold Steel thread. There's some funny stuff in there.


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## Buster Bodine (Apr 11, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> *To: Buster Bodine ~*
> 
> But there's nothing wrong in going by quality. Or lack thereof....


 

That's a very interesting picture you have there. Did you take it? If so, do you have the story that goes with it posted somewhere?


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## Monocrom (Apr 12, 2008)

Not taken by me, personally. But the story behind it is that of a Wilderness instructor who wanted a tough, quality, fixed-blade knife that would last for many years. A fellow instructor who is into knives, recommended the ColdSteel Recon Scout. The advice was taken.

On a trip with a group of teens, the owner of the knife was demonstrating how to split wood if you lack an ax. Just as he began the batoning demonstration, the other instructor told him that he'd be able to pass that knife down to his Grand-kids one day..... The total failure of the Recon Scout happened just after those words were uttered.

The good news is, as all proper instructors do, both men had brought along other fixed-blade knives; just in case something unexpected happened.


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## NA8 (Apr 12, 2008)

That's an interesting break pattern(s), blowing out a section of the blade and snapping the hilt off. Too bad they didn't send it in for metal analysis. I'd love to hear what was wrong with it specifically. Realistically though, have there been any other reports of this kind of failure, or was it a one of a kind report ? One is a cautionary tale, several would be a fair reason to buy a Bark River or other brand.

Edit: Ok, my bad, they just snapped the hilt off. I wasn't looking at the picture close enough. The blade itself is still fine, just buried in the stump. Need new glasses


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## Buster Bodine (Apr 12, 2008)

Well okay, let's say the story is accurate as far as it goes. There are a few points that come to mind when I look at this picture.

*First,* I look at the ground. It's covered with snow. (Assuming they're not in the middle of Nevada's Borax Desert.)

This means it's a pretty safe assumption the log this "Wilderness Instructor" was trying to split with a knife was almost certainly frozen solid. Yes, wood freezes. Or more correctly, the moisture trapped inside the wood freezes. Anyone who's ever split wood in the winter time knows, frozen wood is much harder to split.

*Second,* it looks to my very experienced eye, like this "Wilderness Instructor" chose to try and split the wood right through a hardwood knot. (Looks like White Oak to me.)

*Third*, he chooses to begin the split on the knotted end of the log, when anyone with any experience at wood splitting knows, you will have much better luck if you split from the un-knotted end, even if that is not the "checked" end of the log.

So, bearing all this in mind, he then takes a rather substantial stick (Baton) and begins banging away on the blade of a cold knife in an attempt to drive this knife blade through the WRONG END of a KNOT on a FROZEN HARDWOOD LOG.

*Fourth*, He is using a knife which is not long enough to split the log he has chosen. It should have been obvious to him that once the blade was sunk too deeply into the log to strike the spine with the baton, he would be forced to strike the knife either on the tip or the grip. NEITHER is a safe or proper method of "Batoning" (Which by the way, I much prefer to call by it's correct name, "Froeing."

*Fifth*, Once he had driven the blade into this frozen, knotted, log, thus placing the knife under tremendous pressure, he knowingly chose to pound on a 1/2 tang fixed blade knife with a big stick in an effort to force it through the frozen, knotted, hardwood log.

Wow.

I mean, really. Wow.

I wouldn't try doing that with a 12 pound splitting maul, let alone a knife!

*ANY knife!*

Bearing all this in mind, there are two probable scenarios which led up to this knife's failure.

1. The user was stunningly ignorant of what he was doing, which led to an all too common case of the user experiencing brain failure and then blaming the equipment for not standing up to his ridiculous demands.

2. He set the situation up intentionally to make the knife fail so he could post this picture somewhere online and tell horror stories about how crappy Cold Steel knives are. (It's happened before. Think Bill Bagwell.)

Either way, I pose you a question.

Considering the above, as an honorable man of at least above average integrity, do you personally, really and truly believe this particular case to be an accurate and reasonable indicator as to the level of performance consumers can expect from Cold Steel knives?


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## Buster Bodine (Apr 12, 2008)

NA8 said:


> That's an interesting break pattern(s), blowing out a section of the blade and snapping the hilt off. Too bad they didn't send it in for metal analysis. I'd love to hear what was wrong with it specifically.


 
NA8,

There was nothing "wrong" with the knife. It simply failed because the user expected it to do more than one could reasonably expect a knife of that type to do.

There's never been a tool made that can't be destroyed through misuse and abuse.

That's all this was. A simple yet stunning example of misuse and abuse.


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## Art Vandelay (Apr 12, 2008)

CutleryScience.com did edge retention tests with hemp rope. 

"The knives all have similar levels of initial cutting ability on the hemp due to similar edge profiles. The Twistmaster made from 50100-B at 59 HRC is matched by the Deerhunter in AUS-8A at 57/59 HRC, and it significantly outperformed by the VG-10 Deerhunter at 60/62 HRC and even more so by the Deerhunter in D2 at 60/62 HC"

http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/blade_testing.html#hemp_fine_diamond

" It was however significantly behind higher and harder alloy steels such as VG-10 and D2."

http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/blade_materials.html#C_50100B


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## kaichu dento (Apr 12, 2008)

Excellent post and great observational powers there Buster!

I tried to post a picture I took after cutting a spruce tree that fell in the yard a few weeks ago but wasn't able to figure it out. Oh well...

Anyone who says the Trailmaster is not an incredible knife is misinformed or has an agenda. Great knives, as are probably the ones made by many of the people Mr. Thompson has bad-mouthed.

Live and let live...


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## NA8 (Apr 12, 2008)

Buster Bodine said:


> NA8,
> 
> There was nothing "wrong" with the knife. It simply failed because the user expected it to do more than one could reasonably expect a knife of that type to do.



You make a very good argument. 

I would have guessed that the knife simply was a manufacturing process failure that got shipped by accident and failed catastrophically. I'd base that on the idea that these Cold Steel knives are probably regularly mistreated and we don't see a lot of pictures like this one. 

Without analysis of the steel, we'll never know for sure.


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## Buster Bodine (Apr 12, 2008)

kaichu dento said:


> Excellent post and great observational powers there Buster!


 
Thank you!



> Anyone who says the Trailmaster is not an incredible knife is misinformed or has an agenda. Great knives, as are probably the ones made by many of the people Mr. Thompson has bad-mouthed.


 
You know, I own a lot of knives, some cheap, some moderately expensive, and some stupidly expensive but I really do like my Trailmaster. I don't know that I'd call it "incredible" but "pretty damned good" is certainly appropriate.

It doesn't have to be the strongest knife in the world, it doesn't have to be the prettiest, it just has to be able to do what I expect it to do and the TM does it very well indeed.

As for the people Lynn Thompson has "badmouthed" you're right. But then I know some of the people he's badmouthed and I know that the things he's said about some of these people are absolutely true.

(If you wonder who "some people" are, think "GI Tanto.")

I also know the knife the GI Tanto is meant to copy is a damned good knife. Unfortunately, it's priced to a point that I feel is much higher than the quality of the knife merits, so unless I can pick one up cheap off of ebay some day (fat chance!) I'll never own one.

Again, that says nothing about the "character issues" we all know so well. As I said above, it's just a matter of whether the goods are worth the price charged. To me, they're not.

YMMV.

And that's what makes a horse race!


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## Monocrom (Apr 12, 2008)

Buster Bodine said:


> Thank you!


 
You know.... I never made any excuses about what I think of ColdSteel or Lynn Thompson. I've said it before, I'll say it again; I like some of ColdSteel's designs. (Mostly the ones which weren't ripped-off from other individuals or companies). 

And I've made it clear that the reason why I choose not to buy ColdSteel products is _mainly _due to what I feel is a lack of integrity on the part of the owner of the company. Second, due to a lack of quality on _some _but certainly not all ColdSteel products.

When you made that, admittedly, excellent post about how there are no Angels in this business and you'd prefer to go by quality; I understood what you meant.... And then I thought it appropriate to show you an example of ColdSteel "quality." Keeping in mind that L.T. constantly hypes how great and tough his knives are. The story is real, the knife failed, and failed miserably.....

And then you made every excuse under the Sun, trying to explain how it wasn't the fault of the knife. Are you kidding me??

A knife as thick, as expensive, and (supposedly) as well-made as the Recon Scout; NEVER should have failed like that! I also mentioned that both Wilderness Instructors had other knives with them. We're talking other knives in the same category (well, not as poorly made) as the Recon Scout. I can tell you this, none of those other knives failed; after being subjected to the same treatment. Oh yes, the instructors were able to continue with the class, with the 9 or 10 other knives that I recall they brought with them. 

I spoke of integrity as being the main issue to some of us. I never pretended to be neutral about ColdSteel or Lynn Thompson. But you did.

You spoke of quality as being most important to you. But when I showed an example of ColdSteel "quality," you were quite vigorous in coming up with every little possible excuse as to why the knife broke. You're a ColdSteel fan. And apparently a die-hard one at that. Nothing wrong with that. But you pretended you weren't. Your previous post speaks for itself. 

Bottom Line: The Recon Scout failed. And failed miserably. Several other large, fixed-blades did not; when subjected to the same type of treatment. You can take a grasshopper, cover it in the finest French chocolate, sprinkle it with coconut shavings from the most carefully hand-selected trees located on the Virgin Islands. Each piece, carefully inspected by the most experienced of Bakers.... But deep down inside, you'll always find the grasshopper.

You can make all the excuses in the world, but the knife itself is still what failed. Feel free to have the last word. I enjoy a good discussion. But will not be continuing this one with you. Had you been upfront with your bias for ColdSteel, as I was with mine against it, this could have been a thought-provoking discussion. But you pretended to only care about quality.

Hmm.... Seems that integrity thing popped up again.


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## Buster Bodine (Apr 12, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> You know.... I never made any excuses about what I think of ColdSteel or Lynn Thompson. I've said it before, I'll say it again; I like some of ColdSteel's designs. (Mostly the ones which weren't ripped-off from other individuals or companies).


 
That's true. And if you'll go back and re-read my posts, you won't find me defending Lynn Thompson on any front. So that really isn't an issue even though you seem to want to make it one. 



> And I've made it clear that the reason why I choose not to buy ColdSteel products is _mainly _due to what I feel is a lack of integrity on the part of the owner of the company.


 
Uh-huh, we covered all that ground and I thought we came to a fair enough understanding there.



> Second, due to a lack of quality on _some _but certainly not all ColdSteel products.


 
Well now, here is where we come to loggerheads isn't it? You posted that picture along with comments about the quality of CS knives. You didn't make any distinction as to models or individual examples, it was pretty clear you intended that picture to be your "trump card" in the discussion. A "trump card" which you strongly implied "proved" CS quality to be at the very least, unsatisfactory and possibly worse.



> When you made that, admittedly, excellent post about how there are no Angels in this business and you'd prefer to go by quality; I understood what you meant.... And then I thought it appropriate to show you an example of ColdSteel "quality." Keeping in mind that L.T. constantly hypes how great and tough his knives are. The story is real, the knife failed, and failed miserably.....


 
I believe the knife failed. I am not however, as willing as you to accept the story behind the picture at face value. You admit you weren't there so really, you can't claim any intellectual superiority on that issue. Neither of us were there, neither of us saw it happen, we only have a picture and a related story to go with it. They say a picture is worth a thousand words but the key question has always been, "What words?" You looked at the picture and saw a failed knife. I looked at the picture and saw a bit more.



> And then you made every excuse under the Sun, trying to explain how it wasn't the fault of the knife. Are you kidding me??


 
Hmmm, I notice you don't dispute the truth of any particular part of my observations. You simply choose to label the "facts" as "excuses." 

You could go out tomorrow and buy a Ferrari. Then take that Ferrari, wind it up as fast as it would run, and drive it off the edge of the Grand Canyon ala' Thelma and Louise and expect it to fly like an F-16.

If you did this, bad things would happen to the car and yourself as well.

Why?

Because you would have tried to make a car function like an airplane. You attempted to use the tool in a manner it was never intended to be used.

You would look at anyone who did something like this as a complete idiot yet when it comes to a knife manufactured by a company you dislike, suddenly, a different standard is applied.

And I'm the one being biased? Really?

Dude, come on. Really now. The guy tried to use a knife as a splitting maul.

First, when, in any survival situation are you going to need to split a log? Do you think thats what "Batoning" is? Do you really imagine you have to split your firewood in a survival setting?

I've split hundreds of cords of wood in my life. It's something I really enjoy doing. But do you know WHY I split that wood? So it will fit in my fireplace! Obviously, if I am building a fire in the wild, there is no such need. In fact, since two small pieces of wood will burn faster than one large one, it is to my advantage not to split it. So on top of everything else, it was a useless exercise to begin with.



> A knife as thick, as expensive, and (supposedly) as well-made as the Recon Scout; NEVER should have failed like that!


 
So your theory is, if you pay $100.00 for a knife, it should stand up to any amount of abuse you care to subject it to. You should be able to pound it through 10,000 pieces of frozen hardwood, right through the middle of knots a maul won't bust, and still shave the whiskers off your face, right?

Expensive? $100.00? Really?

You know, I have a beautiful 7 inch bladed fighter made by a very well known maker. It is the first double edged fighter he ever made and is probably worth a cool grand right now. Doesn't matter though, I'll never part with it. It is beyond well made. It is pretty much as close to knife perfection as you can get. It is light, it is fast, it is "lively" and "quick" in the hand. It is surgically sharp and a thing of beauty.

I guess I should take it out and try to pound it through a stump!

I have a Becker Necker too. I guess that one should go out to the woodpile as well!

Right?

I mean, sure, you could say that neither of those knives were designed to be used as a Froe (Batoning knife) but then hell, neither is anything made by Cold Steel.

I can't seriously believe I have to say this but...

Bowie knives are not designed to be used as splitting mauls.



> I also mentioned that both Wilderness Instructors had other knives with them. We're talking other knives in the same category (well, not as poorly made) as the Recon Scout. I can tell you this, none of those other knives failed; after being subjected to the same treatment. Oh yes, the instructors were able to continue with the class, with the 9 or 10 other knives that I recall they brought with them.


 
Yeah, that's an interesting story but it's not in the picture is it? It's a story that was told to you, and you chose to believe it. Then you told it to me and I am somewhat less willing to accept "stories" I read on the Internet. Certainly not willing enough to suspend my own judgement. 



> I spoke of integrity as being the main issue to some of us. I never pretended to be neutral about ColdSteel or Lynn Thompson. But you did.


 
Eh, I don't care whether it was a Cold Steel Recon Scout, a Randall, or an Ontario RAT-7. Any knife of the same general type which you put to that use is a mis-used and abused knife.

Hell, a splitting maul put to use in that manner is being misused.



> You spoke of quality as being most important to you. But when I showed an example of ColdSteel "quality," you were quite vigorous in coming up with every little possible excuse as to why the knife broke.


 
People without agendas see facts. People with agendas see "excuses."



> You're a ColdSteel fan. And apparently a die-hard one at that. Nothing wrong with that.


 
Oh man, you've just got to try and discredit me some how don't you? What a shame you chose to do it by addressing anything and everything except the very valid observations I made.

Yeah, I like my Trailmaster. If I didn't, I wouldn't use it. I'd have traded it off for something else a long time ago. Guess that makes me a hopeless Fanboy, huh?



> But you pretended you weren't. Your previous post speaks for itself.


 
Never pretended anything. And all posts speak for themselves. That's kinda the whole point behind a post. (But don't tell anybody, it's a secret!)

CS makes some nice stuff, and they make some not so nice stuff. And a lot of what they make is pure crap especially now that so much of their line is coming out of China. Damn, there I go being a O/C fanboy again. I should really seek counselling to deal with this incredible fixation, huh? 



> Bottom Line: The Recon Scout failed. And failed miserably. Several other large, fixed-blades did not; when subjected to the same type of treatment. You can take a grasshopper, cover it in the finest French chocolate, sprinkle it with coconut shavings from the most carefully hand-selected trees located on the Virgin Islands. Each piece, carefully inspected by the most experienced of Bakers.... But deep down inside, you'll always find the grasshopper.
> 
> You can make all the excuses in the world, but the knife itself is still what failed. Feel free to have the last word. I enjoy a good discussion. But will not be continuing this one with you. Had you been upfront with your bias for ColdSteel, as I was with mine against it, this could have been a thought-provoking discussion. But you pretended to only care about quality.


 
Heck of a convoluted "bottom line" you've got there.

Here's mine...

The knife failed. It failed to perform like the Tin Man's Magical Splitting Maul. It failed to stand up to ridiculous abuse and misuse. It failed the way a pocket screwdriver fails when used as a hammer.

This should come as no surprise to thinking men.

After all, there is no such thing as "fool proof." There is no such thing as "Indestructable" or a knife that will "never break."

Why?

Because there is no thing that can be built which can not then be broken by a determined idiot. (Feel free to quote me on that.)



> Hmm.... Seems that integrity thing popped up again.


 
Yeah, I guess it did. But probably not in the way you imagine. Damned shame, too.

Btw, for anyone still reading and interested in using the proper tool for the proper job, this is what a Froe Knife (Batoning knife) looks like. 





And the description here...

http://www.garretwade.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&itemID=106298

Note the lack of a hilt or tapered tip. Also note these are highly specialized tools intended for splitting kindling or splitting out cedar shakes from cedar wedges. These are jobs which can often be done with hand pressure alone or light to moderate tapping at most. It is not designed to split cordwood and will not function well in that capacity.

Please note also, this tool bears absolutely no resemblence to any "Bowie" style knife. (Trailmasters and Recon Scouts are only loosely related to true Bowies.) 

Thanks for the last word Monocrom, sorry you couldn't keep it friendly.


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## fnmag (Apr 13, 2008)




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## phaserrifle (Jun 9, 2008)

personaly I don't think i would buy most of cold steel's product line, for three reasons. 
1) The doubts about thier quality
2) ther controversy over the companies selling methods ect (it does strike me that alot of ideas probbably come from custom makers and filter down into production models)
and 
3) there are much cheaper, good quality knives available, that will fit my purposes just fine (eg mora frosts)

Although the spike series looks like it could be worth it.


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## kaichu dento (Jun 9, 2008)

For trail making/maintenance I've never yet found anything to compare with the Trailmaster and LTC Kukri, but for folders I'm a Benchmade fan all the way.


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## 276 (Jun 9, 2008)

sog is my number one folders then benchmade & spyderco


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 10, 2008)

276 said:


> sog is my number one folders then benchmade & spyderco


Do you really think that SOG folders are better than Benchmades and Spydies?


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## kaichu dento (Jun 10, 2008)

I think he may just like the designs better.

One of my reasons for preferring Benchmade is the Axis lock in particular as well as their ergonomics.

A couple of personal favorites are the 705/710 and the Presidio models.

And since this is a Cold Steel thread I'll say once again, I like the fixed blades I have from them enough that I had 3 Trailmasters up until giving one to my brother.


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## 276 (Jun 11, 2008)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Do you really think that SOG folders are better than Benchmades and Spydies?


 I know everyone says that benchmade are the best which is true in a way but i like sog more, like there designs, & the way they feel when gripped in my hand, i also like there arc locks more than anyones but enough said PS: this is not the main reason but my job sells them so i have quite a lot of them.


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## Buster Bodine (Jul 2, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> Bottom Line: The Recon Scout failed. And failed miserably. Several other large, fixed-blades did not; when subjected to the same type of treatment.


 
I know this thread is a little old but a friend of mine recently stumbled across the original thread where the picture AND the whole story of the failed Recon Scout can be found and sent it on to me. I thought others might find it as interesting as I did.

So as Paul Harvey would say, here's the REST of the story!

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328256

The above quote from earlier in this thread is pretty funny when you read the original thread at BFC and find out that quite a few of the "other large, fixed-blades" praised for not failing were actually CS Recon Scouts. (Ain't irony fun?)

If you're interested enough to read the entire thread, which is quite a job but worthwhile, you'll realize that the actual events didn't go down just exactly the way you might have imagined if you were to read only this thread. Very interesting stuff!

In fact, the guy "Nutnfancy" who posted the original thread and infamous picture freely admits his Recon Scout sailed through all the same trials without a hitch. In fact, of the several CS Recon Scouts used during that event and a subsequent second trip to the same general area, there was only the one failure.

The owner of the original broken knife also reports having received a free replacement for his broken knife as per CS's warranty policy, and that this replacement knife has served him without fail as of the last post in that thread.

So basically, this entire bruhaha is truly a tempest in a teapot. A storm of controversy based solely on the failure of one single knife while ignoring the exemplary performance of several other knives of the exact same make and model.

You know, now that I think about it, I really am kind of a fan of Cold Steel's stuff. They make some fun toys and some good tools. I just received one of their .625 blowguns and have been having a blast with it. But do I feel any particular affinity or affection for CS or Lynn T himself? Nope, not a bit. Lynn T's marketing doesn't really appeal to me and if you can imagine, as incredible as it may be, rumor has it he may actually *not* be the most perfect human ever to grace Planet Earth.

But none of that bothers me.

What does bother me, is seeing someone with an obvious and petty agenda working very hard to damage the reputation of a good knife because of some deep seated and highly personal bias. 

The Internet can be a wonderful thing but one of its greatest shortcomings is that this sort of behavior is unfortunately, all too common. It is to Lynn Thompson's credit that he pays little attention to such baseless criticisms.

Are there better knives than the Cold Steel Recon Scout/Trailmaster family? Yeah, sure there are! Spend the rest of your life arguing about and trying to decide which one is the best if you have nothing better to do. But you can be sure that when you finally reach a decision, few will agree with you. After all, that's what makes a horse race interesting.

And btw, no I won't be buying any Cold Steel products made in China. This isn't a bang on CS, I know why LT had to make that move, unfortunate as its necessity was. I simply won't buy any knives made in China no matter who makes them. So obviously, I can't and won't comment on the quality of new, China manufactured knives from CS or anyone else.

On other fronts, I still insist that "batoning" a cut-to-length piece of frozen, knotted, cord wood in 5 degree F weather, is not only a gross abuse of your knife but a foolish, even stupid waste of precious time and energy. I've built hundreds of fires over the last four decades or so, in pouring rain, deep snow, desert, jungle, and just about any other conditions you care to mention. Unless I was cutting it to size to fit in a woodstove, I've never had to cut or split wood to get a good fire going and keep it going. Ever.

"Batoning" is a valuable skill when used correctly. When used incorrectly, it loses its value very quickly. (As do most other skills.)

Words to the wise, etc.


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