# Flood vs. Throw



## slickseal (Jun 17, 2012)

Im trying to find my first light, and I was thinking I needed a throwy light because i want to see out to about 100-150 yards. But I still want to have the capability to use it at closer range ( possibly multiple brightness settings?). Am I wrong? Can a light designed with a wider beam reach that far? Does it depend on lumens or what?
Any clarification would be awesome!!!

P.S- AA vs. CR123A. any noticeable performance difference?


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## TEEJ (Jun 17, 2012)

slickseal said:


> Im trying to find my first light, and I was thinking I needed a throwy light because i want to see out to about 100-150 yards. But I still want to have the capability to use it at closer range ( possibly multiple brightness settings?). Am I wrong? Can a light designed with a wider beam reach that far? Does it depend on lumens or what?
> Any clarification would be awesome!!!
> 
> P.S- AA vs. CR123A. any noticeable performance difference?



OK, good questions!

Throw requires either a lot of lumens, or, concentration of the lumens you have into a smaller area.

So, a floody light with 150 yards range is a big lumen monster....depending upon what you need to SEE at 150 yards, and, how much area you need to cover at close range, and at 150 yards, etc.

So, after that set of concepts, its all a matter of degree.

Just think of the lumens as the gallons per minute coming out of your hose....and the deeper the water ON what you are spraying....the more LUX. 






The next concept is beam SHAPE. Choosing a light really needs to start with beam shape, not lumens.

After beam shape, you need to know a rough guess as to what LUX you want on what you're looking AT.

LUX is what you SEE when the light hits your target and bounces back to your eyes.


So, if you just need to not bump into things close up, a fraction of a Lux is ok after your eyes are adjusted to the dark...like waking up in your tent and wanting to get to the latrine at 3 am.

An average night, from the moon and starlight, etc, you might be given ~ 0.25 lux.

If you can see at night w/o a flashlight for example...well, then you might not need a light at all on an average night such as used in the reference.


If you want more light than that, say to read a sign further away...or to see if that's a dog or a wolf following you down a dark trail...you need more light. 

Here's a chart that lists examples of Lux by types of tasks:








So, if your task requires a level of detail that corresponds to a similar task above, consider that a similar lux value might work.

Also consider that (Not shown in chart...I need to make one for that still....) as what you need to see gets further away, the part of your vision that you need to use to resolve it, requires more light than you need for close tasks.

The fovea, essentially, your central field of view in a ~ 2º cone from your eye...is not very good at seeing in the dark. It has the poorest light reception in your total field of view....and needs a lot more light to see things.

If you are looking at a critter 150 yards away trying to tell if its a rabid racoon or a twicky rabbit - you are using your central and sharpest part of your vision.


OK, so, if your light has only 100 lumens, it CAN hit a target that far away..but, with all 100 lumens concentrated into a small circle of light.

That same light will put an even SMALLER circle of light on the ground in front of you, so it would be terrible for talking a hike where you didn't want to step on a snake of trip over a root...the light bean is so small that you are trying to see where you are going through a paper towel tube type view.



If you have 2,000 lumens, you don't NEED to concentrate them into a teeny patch of light....you can spread them out. You can have a wider beam shape. That means no more paper towel tube view...you see a lot at a time.

Of course, it might STILL reach out 150 yards, but, depending on HOW spread out the beam is, the target might look brighter, or, dimmer. 

Again, its a question of degree.


So, there are throwy lights, and floody lights, but, those terms in of themselves are not always going to tell you what you wanted to know.


For example, I have some floody lights that can throw over 300 yards, and some throwy lights that can't.

I have an 300 lumen thrower that can hit targets ~800 yards away, and a 850 lumen thrower that can't.


There are other factors...spill for example. Most light's produce a beam with 3 parts, a central hot spot, a corona that surrounds it, with a somewhat less bright donut of light....and spill, a generally unfocused field of light that is shaped by the shape of the light's head.

If a throw light has decent spill, it can ACT like a floody light's beam for walking around, providing enough light to see where you're going, even though the main beam is pointed hundreds of yards away.



And

If you are asking about AA vs CR123A - well, neither will give a good account of themselves at 150 yards if ONE of them is powering your light.

An alkaline AA cell is too weak to power modern high performance lights, and to use them, a LOT of them have to be bundled together.

An "Enloop" or rechargeable AA, can be better, but still doesn't have the energy density of a lithium ion cell.

The CR123A is a disposable lithium ion cell, and, has a high enough energy density to make a small yet bright light.

A RECHARGEABLE lithium ion cell has even more power (Higher voltage) and can make the same sized light a lot brighter. (RCR123 instead of CR123, as in "R" for Rechargeable)


To get 150 yards of throw...the cells you need will depend on how bright you need your target to be, and, how large an area you need illuminated at that range. 

You then consider the flood light use you want...how large an area, and how brightly lit.

You need to start there...and work backwards.


Most of us simply follow the flashaholic mantra: (Get both). Get a throwy light optimized for your distance/target, and a floody light optimized for the close range task(s) expected.


:welcome:


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## rufus001 (Jun 17, 2012)

You always provide good reading Teej!


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## Trevtrain (Jun 18, 2012)

rufus001 said:


> You always provide good reading Teej!



I always like how he's a man of so few words :laughing:


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## Boatingguy (Jun 18, 2012)

Good read, esp to we noobs.


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## zespectre (Jun 18, 2012)

TEEJ's post gets added to my "things to refer people to" pile <grin>.


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## jorn (Jun 18, 2012)

> That same light will put an even SMALLER circle of light on the ground in front of you, so it would be terrible for talking a hike where you didn't want to step on a snake of trip over a root...the light bean is so small that you are trying to see where you are going through a paper towel tube type view.


Must be a asperic light you describe. All lights with a reflector got spill, no matter how tight the beam is  The only thing i find terrible about walking around with "throwers", are the overkill hotspot on close range. Spill lights up everything up close, but it's blinding if you shine the hotspot too close to you.


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## yellow (Jun 18, 2012)

in general flashlight use, a medium flood beam ... 7-9 degrees, like the typical P60 insert ... is the best compromise.

but when You have the "reach problem" VERY often, then the tight focused beam is Your best bet:
--> You can also do close range work with it, but with a floody beam You cant reach far


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## reppans (Jun 18, 2012)

In terms of batteries, the main advantage of the CR123 is that maximum output on a lithium primary (disposable) will be about double the AA size due to double the voltage. Runtime, shelf-life, temp performance, etc. will be roughly the same when compared to the AA lithium primary, the L91. 

With Li-ion rechargeables 16340/RCR123 vs 14500 (AA size), everything is the same, except the 14500s are truer to stated capacity of 750ma while 16340 are closer to 600-650ma, due to the AAa slightly larger size.

Alkaline primaries and NiMh rechargeables - cheap, widely available, safe - are options only available to the AA user. Alks will leak on you if let them get too low though.

Note: a light must be appropriately rated for the voltage of the battery you are going to use.

For a first light, I personally would recommend a floodier light for general purpose use, unless you have a specific purpose in mind, like scanning the perimeter of your property, or searching for wildlife.


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## slickseal (Jun 18, 2012)

thanks for all of the feedback! 
Does anyone have a suggestion for a good, all purpose light for around $50 ?


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## zenbeam (Jun 18, 2012)

rufus001 said:


> You always provide good reading Teej!



Yes, to be sure, but Teej often holds back quite a lot - like in his post above for example.


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## MichaelW (Jun 18, 2012)

slickseal said:


> thanks for all of the feedback!
> Does anyone have a suggestion for a good, all purpose light for around $50 ?


Are there any other limiting factors?
I like to start my search(s) with the most limiting factor first.

Do you want/need neutral-white? Will you get into rechargables? Will two levels be sufficient? Do you need a sustained run-time at maximum output?

If something like the ET P100C2 with the xp-g doesn't throw enough for you, then you can exchange it for the xp-e version, which has less lumens but more throw.


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## slickseal (Jun 18, 2012)

neutral-white would be nice, but it probably wont be the deciding factor. two levels is fine but more is great too. Im not really sure if I will get into rechargeables, but the option to use them in a flashlight would be nice if I do..... My main concern is if i can use a light more designed for throw for closer range work.
Sorry for my incompetence!


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## Yamabushi (Jun 18, 2012)

slickseal said:


> My main concern is if i can use a light more designed for throw for closer range work.


On a thrower, you could use a diffuser for close work.


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## lightwait (Jun 19, 2012)

slickseal said:


> My main concern is if i can use a light more designed for throw for closer range work.


It depends what you mean by 'close work'. If you are talking about working on your car or some other home repair, I think a thrower is fine as long as it has an appropriate (lower) brightness you can set. I prefer a bit of a thrower for mechanical type work. If I want to line up a bolt hole, I don't need all the extra light from flood bouncing back in my face. On the other hand, if by 'close work' you mean checking your basement/attic for leaks, critters, etc, or even just navigating your house at night or walking a path, you might want something a little floodier so you can see the big picture without tunnel vision. A lot of lights have a somewhat floody beam and a 'hot spot' that throws a greater distance. They are usually a good compromise for a general purpose light. Unless you have a specific outdoor search use for the light, I would consider a more floody light with a nice hot spot. 

Will you be looking to carry this light in your pocket? A 150 yard thrower might be more than you want to carry in your pocket everyday.

If you go with a AA light, I would go with rechargeables like eneloops. Alkalines are poor performers and sooner or later you will get a leaker. You can get some eneloops and a charger for pretty cheap. There is more expense and more learning involved if you want to get into lithium ion rechargables and the light needs to be specifically able to use them.


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## slickseal (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks for the reply!
When I said "closer work" I meant stuff like walking on a dark path at night , looking around the backyard, ect.
So I really like your suggestion for a floodier light with a nice hotspot. This light would have to fit in my pocket, but I dont think that will be an issue because I will be using either 2 123a's or 2 AA's. I was looking at the foursevens quark, but thats a little above my budget right now. any other good quality lights that you would recommend?
Thanks so much!


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## reppans (Jun 19, 2012)

slickseal said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> When I said "closer work" I meant stuff like walking on a dark path at night , looking around the backyard, ect.
> So I really like your suggestion for a floodier light with a nice hotspot. This light would have to fit in my pocket, but I dont think that will be an issue because I will be using either 2 123a's or 2 AA's. I was looking at the foursevens quark, but thats a little above my budget right now. any other good quality lights that you would recommend?
> Thanks so much!



That's my EDC (the "X" for XML emitter) a lot of us run them on optional 1xAA tubes with 14500 Li-ions... I love this light, esp. the 200+ hr/1AA moonlight mode. It's pretty floody, but the near 300 lumens throw reasonably well. 

Great starter light, can't think of a more versatile light that handles all batt chemistries, huge lumen ranges, crazy long runtimes, a variety of disco modes, with a long warranty, and HQ'd out of the US.

I've still seen some inventory left on rebranding sales (I bought at least a half dozen for gifts a month or 2 ago). $45 + shipping., try 4Seven-store.com. (I've never bought from them though).


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## MikeAusC (Jun 19, 2012)

You are no longer forced to choose between Flood or Spot light.

Ever since I bought my first Zooming light (Flood to Spot continuously adjustable) I consider a fixed-focus light way too limited.

Combine that with a Variable Brightness control and you have an incredibly versatile light.


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## lightwait (Jun 19, 2012)

slickseal said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> When I said "closer work" I meant stuff like walking on a dark path at night , looking around the backyard, ect.
> So I really like your suggestion for a floodier light with a nice hotspot. This light would have to fit in my pocket, but I dont think that will be an issue because I will be using either 2 123a's or 2 AA's. I was looking at the foursevens quark, but thats a little above my budget right now. any other good quality lights that you would recommend?
> Thanks so much!


I like Fenix and Quarks. Both have a somewhat floody beam with a hotspot. Both are a little over your budget, but they are nice lights. In the CPF marketplace, you can find some 8-10% discount codes. You can also find some discounted Quarks on goinggear.com and some other sites. They have quarks with 4sevens old logo. I don't keep up on all the other brands lights because I will buy them all, so I don't look. Maybe others will suggest something less expensive.

I have the Fenix LD12, LD22, and the PD32. I have an assortment of Quarks too. All nice lights. I carry and use the LD12 the most. Before that, it was a Quark single 123. My Fenix's have better tint and I like the new side button. Some guys hate the side button. Both Fenix and Quark (and other brands) in a single AA will light your path pretty well, but won't overly impress with super throw. You can find outdoor beamshots if you search for reviews here and on youtube. A 2xAA or single 123 will impress more. 2 x123 even more. 

You can get 4 AA eneloops and a simple charger for ~$16. Lithium-ion will impress for sure, but will cost you a lot more to get started. All the Quarks will take lithium ion, but of the Fenix I mentioned, only the PD32 will take a Li-ion. The Fenix LD22 can lose its low mode on alkaline batteries until they run down a bit. I never use alkalines though.


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## HotWire (Jun 19, 2012)

The answer is simple! Buy two lights, a thrower and a floody light. You'll want a back-up for whatever you are doing! Also you can get a difuser that will spread the light evenly for close work.


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## slickseal (Jun 20, 2012)

Okay,
What is a diffuser and how can I get one?
will it fit on every light? Or does each brand/model require a different one?


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## lightwait (Jun 20, 2012)

A diffuser is a frosted lens that slips/snaps onto the front of the light. Some are fancier and have a flip-up lens so you can easily go back and forth. Some manufacturers make them for their specific lights. Some of these fit other lights. You can ask around here and somebody might know what fits on what, I don't. Most are slip-on and if the diameter is correct, it should fit on other models.

Personally, I don't care for them. The slip-on is something to lose when I take it off. The flip-ups seem bulky to me, but I never had one. I'm happy enough with my fenix and quark beams that I don't need or want one anymore.

I don't mean to badmouth diffusers, just my personal thoughts. Think about your primary use and find a light you like. If it ends up being a heavy thrower, then a diffuser might be nice. Probably not needed on a general purpose light with mixed beam pattern.


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## [email protected] (Jun 20, 2012)

MikeAusC said:


> You are no longer forced to choose between Flood or Spot light.
> 
> Ever since I bought my first Zooming light (Flood to Spot continuously adjustable) I consider a fixed-focus light way too limited.
> 
> Combine that with a Variable Brightness control and you have an incredibly versatile light.




I hear you... LED Lenser make just a light the M7R :thumbsup:



Rechargeable
Flood
Focus
Variable output


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## yellow (Jun 20, 2012)

... others (like me) would type:
totally unnecessary "feature" that only adds 
* something that will fail eventually
* worsens protection from the elements
* makes unuseful beam, as pretty no spill at all (good for extreme throw, but not good for anything else)

If that feature were that good, there were _more_ and better makes


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## reppans (Jun 20, 2012)

lightwait said:


> A diffuser is a frosted lens that slips/snaps onto the front of the light. Some are fancier and have a flip-up lens so you can easily go back and forth. Some manufacturers make them for their specific lights. Some of these fit other lights. You can ask around here and somebody might know what fits on what, I don't. Most are slip-on and if the diameter is correct, it should fit on other models.
> 
> Personally, I don't care for them. The slip-on is something to lose when I take it off. The flip-ups seem bulky to me, but I never had one. I'm happy enough with my fenix and quark beams that I don't need or want one anymore.
> 
> I don't mean to badmouth diffusers, just my personal thoughts. Think about your primary use and find a light you like. If it ends up being a heavy thrower, then a diffuser might be nice. Probably not needed on a general purpose light with mixed beam pattern.



+ 1 to everything said here.


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## slickseal (Jun 20, 2012)

Okay. On 4sevens store I found a Quark AA2 turbo and a Quark X AA2 tactical on clearance for<$50.
Which of these would you choose, If any? Any other last minute light recommendations?
Thank you guys so much for all of your help!!!

P.S whats the difference between the Quark X AA2 "tactical" and the plain old AA2? I could see no visible difference:thinking:
P.P.S Im worried these wont have enough throw..... if anyone has one of these, I would love an outdoor beamshot. If not,
well there's a reason to buy another light......


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## lightwait (Jun 20, 2012)

Quarks are available in two interfaces, the 'regular' and 'tactical'. I believe the turbo and the AAx2 tactical that you mention are both the tactical interface. The 'X' has a larger emmiter and I THINK is more floody. The turbo X uses the same larger XM-L emiter and I think has a larger head to make the naturally more floody emitter more throwy. Don't take my word on this, I don't have these two models. Look for beam shots online. I have some of the regulars. Moderate throw. I have a Quark X 2x123 turbo. That throws real good, but has a fairly large head. It fits in a loose pocket, but only for special occasions. Too large for me for edc. How much throw are you looking for? Is there a particular need or distance? 

I don't like the tactical interface on a general purpose light. I prefer the 'regular' that comes on low and you click it up to low, medium, high, then sos. Tighten the head and you max first, then one more click gets you strobe. In the tactical version you pick any too modes and program one mode for head loosened and one for head tightened. Many people prefer this. It is nice if you are doing mechanical work or security work, but if only two modes doesn't do it for you then you might not like that. You can reprogram it, not hard, but also not practical to do it at the moment of need.


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## reppans (Jun 20, 2012)

There're several QAA2X reviews in the flashlight review section, Selfbuilt and at least one other.



lightwait said:


> ...The 'X' has a larger emmiter and I THINK is more floody. The turbo X uses the same larger XM-L emiter and I think has a larger head to make the naturally more floody emitter more throwy. Don't take my word on this, I don't have these two models.....
> 
> I have a Quark X 2x123 turbo....



So, which is lightwait, you have the Turbo X or you don't? ;-)

I have all three lights, my EDC is mentioned in an earlier post. I also like regular 
better as I always like to use the lowest mode to accomplish a given task. Many love the 2-mode Tactical though and it might make sense if you like using higher modes more often (so you don't have to cycle through the lower modes). There's a decent chance you might get pre-flash on a non-XML model though.


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## slickseal (Jun 20, 2012)

so the X is floody, but the turbo X is less so? 
Does anyone have experience with these two lights
( if you haven't noticed, I'm trying to find the "throwiest" Quark)


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## reppans (Jun 20, 2012)

Yes the XML is floody. The AA2 Turbo will throw further than the AA2 X, despite 80 less lumens, but it's a tight focused hotspot created by the deeper wider head.. will be the least useful up close. The Turbo X is in between the above two beams - on the floody side for dedicated thrower but it out throws both on sheer power (450lms)... I run mine on 2x14500s. My Turbo X is a house light... too big/heavy to EDC for me, but one of my favorite lights. Though it was outside your budget.


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## slickseal (Jun 20, 2012)

Okay. my main concern is that I wouldn't be able to see far enough with these lights
i found the AA2 turbo (no X) on the 4sevens website for 49.00. would this get better distance than the plain ( non turbo) X?
Sorry if I'm going in circles, but I'm new and kinda confused....

Edit: I dont need super far, but medium range like 30-40 yards.
Is this possible with the Quark series or should I look at something different?


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## reppans (Jun 20, 2012)

slickseal said:


> i found the AA2 turbo (no X) on the 4sevens website for 49.00. would this get better distance than the plain ( non turbo) X?


Read the post just above yours.



slickseal said:


> Edit: I dont need super far, but medium range like 30-40 yards.
> Is this possible with the Quark series or should I look at something different?



In terms of flood/throw, every light is going to be similar. A smaller EDC light with narrower/shallower head will be floodier. The Cree XML emitter is more efficient at higher lumens but has a larger emitter.... the larger the emitter, the even larger (wider deeper) the head must be to make it throwy.

I personally am fine with using 24 lumens on my QAAX for 30-40 yrds, 280 w/14500 lights up a square acre for me just fine.. but then again, I'm a moonlight lover and so my usual L,M, H are 0.3, 3, 24 lumens. I can see animal eyes reflecting back at me in the woods with my non turbo X at say 75 yds, but the turbo X I can probably see if it's got antlers, and perhaps how many points.

For me the bottom line on a general purpose light is this - viewing things at a distance is nice to know, but not really necessary, I could easily live without it. However, when I really need a light, it's because I need to find something, or do something, at close distance, often with my hands... and a floodier light is better for that. And for me, especially as someone who likes to let their eyes night adapt, 24 lumens is usually enough and 100 almost always enough... 280 is for showing off.

But you seem to want a real thrower... there's a bunch of threads for that, and at probably lower prices... I just don't know them - I've stuck pretty much to the Quarks because I want AA compatibility and long running moonlight mode on all my lights (in case of emergency).

Good luck on your search.


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## lightwait (Jun 21, 2012)

what reppans said^

Other than 'wanting throw', you are somewhat non-specific on your needs, so its hard to say if these lights are what you want. Any of the quarks (and many other similar lights) should throw a good amount of light at 40 yards, especially if your eyes are night adjusted. They certainly throw more than your basic multi-led lights from the supermarket. At 40 yards you should be able to identify your path and anything else that goes bump in the night. However, if you have a more specific need, like night hunting or just a need for very detailed observation, then they might not be bright enough to properly illuminate your subject.


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## slickseal (Jun 21, 2012)

Alright. I decided on the Quark AA2 turbo!
I just wanted to thank you guys/girls for all of your help, and for putting up with a newb like me.
From this search I've learned a lot and hopefully I can make some good contributions to this forum!
Thanks again and God Bless.:thumbsup:


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## [email protected] (Jun 22, 2012)

yellow said:


> ... others (like me) would type:
> totally unnecessary "feature" that only adds
> * something that will fail eventually





BruceWillEs said:


> Some users here said, that they don't want a focus system in their flashlight, because that's just one more part that can fail. I always agreed, and accepted this to be the one and only real disadvantage of a focus system. But when I disassembled the M7R, and saw how simple the focus system is build, I really asked myself what part of the focus system can fail at all!


 full CPF review - HERE




yellow said:


> * worsens protection from the elements













yellow said:


> * makes unuseful beam, as pretty no spill at all (good for extreme throw, but not good for anything else)













yellow said:


> If that feature were that good, there were _more_ and better makes






 Maglight various models
 Streamlight various models
 Microfire Pioneer
Trustfire Z1/Z5
 Various clone based lights



Back around 2008 the "Hokus Focus" lights were the basis of a very popular mod here at CPF as seen HERE in a DIY tutorial, so there is obviously a market segment that appreciates this feature


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## rambo180 (Jun 23, 2012)

rufus001 said:


> You always provide good reading Teej!



Teej loves questions like this 

and i like reading the answers!


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## bpsealy (Jun 25, 2012)

TEEJ said:


> OK, good questions!
> 
> Throw requires either a lot of lumens, or, concentration of the lumens you have into a smaller area.
> 
> ...



What light do you have that is 300 lumens that can throw 800 yards???!! I want one!


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## DellSuperman (Jan 19, 2013)

*Thrower vs Flooder*

Hi all,

Sorry if this post have been repeated.
My question is, what are the kind of LED that are considered a flooder & what are considered thrower?
Considering that i am using the same reflector (P60 drop in kind).
From what I read, a XML-T6 is considered a flooder, whereas a XRE-R2 is a thrower. 

Thank you!


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## uk_caver (Jan 20, 2013)

*Re: Thrower vs Flooder*



DellSuperman said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Sorry if this post have been repeated.
> My question is, what are the kind of LED that are considered a flooder & what are considered thrower?
> ...


Basically for a given optic/reflector, an LED with a larger emitting area will tend to be floodier.

The XM-L has a 2mmx2mm 'die' (the bit that generates the light), whereas the XP-E (and older XR-E) have a ~1mmx1mm die, and the XP-G have a ~1.4mmx1.4mm die.


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## jmsodpc (Sep 8, 2014)

*Re: Thrower vs Flooder*

i keep wondering if i would like an olight sr52 thrower vs the olight sr mini flood...

not sure what i'd get more use out of.... i think my LD50 fenix is pretty floody...so maybe a nice thrower is needed too.



decisions decsions.


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## kaikoakh29 (Sep 10, 2014)

Cr123 are better than AA and 18650s are the best


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


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## stevenn21 (Nov 8, 2014)

thankyou for this information! and a good read too do you build custom lights or just collect?


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## fireonhigh (Nov 23, 2014)

yep. get both.


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## dave101 (Nov 23, 2014)

Different Horses for Different Courses.....
Buy two lights. 
Why buy a compromise?


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## Rod911 (Nov 24, 2014)

dave101 said:


> Different Horses for Different Courses.....
> Buy two lights.
> Why buy a compromise?



How about four? 









Convoy L2 with three of its clones. In them are, from left to right: de-domed XM-L2, XP-G2, MT-G2 and MT-G2 with a diffuser. All lights are driven to around 5A. My favourite would have to be the MT-G2, no diffuser. In this host, it provides the best of both worlds - throw and flood. Yes, it doesn't out throw both the XM-L2 and XP-G2, but its throw is very usable.


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