# M4 mods...how to get more lumens?



## zx7dave (Oct 5, 2008)

I'm trying to find out what options are out there. I have had a M6 twice..and each time sold it as I didn't like the girth. I have run the Lumens Factory 700 Lumen bulb in my M3T using AW RCR123's but I get a runtime of 4-7 minutes. So I think I am on the right track with using a longer body of the M4. What options are out there to get a 700 or higher light with at least 30 min of runtime using a bored out M4 body (18500 or 18650's). For this light I want to stay with a traditional LA not LED's. Here are the parameters I want to stay with. I want to keep the SW02, I want to keep the KT4, and I want to use a SF bored out M4 body. I am willing to entertain a A19 or similiar adapter for a longer body.
So what options are out there? I know most of the light lingo, but for custom mods please feel free to go into more detail. Thanks


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## cenz (Oct 5, 2008)

zx7dave said:


> I'm trying to find out what options are out there. I have had a M6 twice..and each time sold it as I didn't like the girth. I have run the Lumens Factory 700 Lumen bulb in my M3T using AW RCR123's but I get a runtime of 4-7 minutes. So I think I am on the right track with using a longer body of the M4. What options are out there to get a 700 or higher light with at least 30 min of runtime using a bored out M4 body (18500 or 18650's). For this light I want to stay with a traditional LA not LED's. Here are the parameters I want to stay with. I want to keep the SW02, I want to keep the KT4, and I want to use a SF bored out M4 body. I am willing to entertain a A19 or similiar adapter for a longer body.
> So what options are out there? I know most of the light lingo, but for custom mods please feel free to go into more detail. Thanks




If you want to run Ho-M6R, you can consider Leef 3x18650 body for M head; 18650 has 2200mah capacity, which gives ~50mins runtime.


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## cenz (Oct 5, 2008)

cenz said:


> If you want to run Ho-M6R, you can consider Leef 3x18650 body for M head; 18650 has 2200mah capacity, which gives ~50mins runtime.



here is the more info about the 3x18650 Leef:
http://www.lighthound.com/LeefBody-C-Tail-M-Head-3x18650-Battery-HA-III-Black_p_105-941.html


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## knightrider (Oct 5, 2008)

cenz said:


> If you want to run Ho-M6R, you can consider Leef 3x18650 body for M head; 18650 has 2200mah capacity, which gives ~50mins runtime.



I run this setup and it's great! The M6 is kind of thick to hold onto securely, but the 3x18650 Leef Body is nicer/easier to hold (even though I do have larger hands anyhow). Very bright setup with a long run time. I like it better than a rechargeable M6.


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## zx7dave (Oct 5, 2008)

Thanks. I have considered this. I prefer to stay with a bored M4 body if possible. I did look at this body at Lighthound..they seemed to only have it in black. 
Has anyone done 3 18500's in a m4 body? Will it work? Or the use of a A19 adapter?


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 5, 2008)

You are asking a question that has been answered hundreds of times on CPF, and the answers are well documented here. There are many posibilities and I am sure that liking incan lights that you have read this thread, http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=161536. If you have not read this thread, by all means read it now. People, of course, will want to answer your question, but you as a CPF'ers owe it to yourself to do your own research. Happy reading,

Bill


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## cenz (Oct 5, 2008)

zx7dave said:


> Thanks. I have considered this. I prefer to stay with a bored M4 body if possible. I did look at this body at Lighthound..they seemed to only have it in black.
> Has anyone done 3 18500's in a m4 body? Will it work? Or the use of a A19 adapter?



As I know, M4 body can support 17670 li-ion sized, it run ~35mins for Ho-m6r; and you also need two A19 adapters.


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## Monocrom (Oct 5, 2008)

Bored out M4 body running on 2x18650 won't give more lumens. I have a Leef-bodied M4. When using 18650 cells, I have to run a 9volt lamp. When using CR123 cells, I swap out the Lumens Factory 9volt for an MN61 12volt lamp. 

The benefit to using 2x18650 cells is the savings on the cost of batteries, but not an improvement on brightness. 

3x18650 set-up could work, but you'd need two A19 extenders or the appropriate Leef body. The extra length of the barrel might be too long.


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## mdocod (Oct 5, 2008)

If you're willing to sacrifice some runtime, a pair of Emoli 18650 (or equivalent, safe chemistry LiMn cells) can be used to drive an MN21 for about 15 minutes (running around 1000 bulb lumen estimated, with reduced bulb life), or an Osram 64275 in an FM bi-pin socket for around 10 minutes, output of the 64275 is on par with an 1185 build, (around double the output of a properly driven HO-M6R, not to be confused with driving an HO-M6R on 3 RCR123s, shame on you!). Looking at luxluthors destructive incan bulb tests, and comparing that against his safe chemistry discharge tests, 1300+ bulb lumen is very realistic on this configuration. 

------------

You can drive your HO-M6R on 3x18500 cells, but you need to do one of a few different things:

1. add a 1 cell extension to an M4 length body (bored for 18mm cells if that's what you decide to use), and then build a 1/2 cell dummy spacer for the light out of plastic or wood rod.

2. Use a M3T length body, and add an A14(?) extension (? = I think this is the right extension, the one that is used in the KR2 conversion kit and adds about 1.5 CR123 length to the body. ) The extension would need to be bored for use with 18500 cells. Other modifications may be necessary. 

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A 3x18650 setup (2 bored extensions on an M4 or 3x18650 leefbody) can be used to build an 1185 build with the FM bi-pin socket adapter, but this configuration is likely to instaflash bulbs unless you limit charge voltage to ~4.1V per cell. Runtime should be well over 30 minutes though. 

------------

Eric


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## Fusion_m8 (Oct 6, 2008)

The HO-M6R with 3x17670s in a M4 works a treat, I use 2 A19 adapters I buy on ebay for $7.99ea delivered. One of the easiest upgrades you can do without needing special tools or parts.


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## BSBG (Oct 6, 2008)

There are a ton of bulbs you can run on 2x18650 if you get one of Fivemega's MN to bipin adapters. A WA1111 or Osram 64250 will give you a lot of light and decent run time.


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## brighterisbetter (Oct 6, 2008)

Has no one posted a link to DM51's M6 Rechargeable Shootout yet? Some of those combos are relevant to the M4 with a bore job at least.


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## zx7dave (Oct 6, 2008)

Response to Bullseyebill. As I wrote my initial request for information realized that the answers were already out there somewhere. However the search engine on CPF has not improved over the years and still is almost useless. So forgive me for asking the question again.


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## zx7dave (Oct 6, 2008)

Thanke to all for the info. I think I have all the info I need to make a good decision. Think I will go with 3x18650 and 2 A19 adapters. Thanks - Dave


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## brighterisbetter (Oct 6, 2008)

zx7dave said:


> Think I will go with 3x18650 and 2 A19 adapters.


Who do you plan to send your M4 body to for a bore job?


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## zx7dave (Oct 6, 2008)

It actually was bored years ago..however now I have a different problem...It appears that the A19's are only made in black...I prefer to minimize the SF lego look...


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## brighterisbetter (Oct 6, 2008)

zx7dave said:


> It actually was bored years ago..however now I have a different problem...It appears that the A19's are only made in black...I prefer to minimize the SF lego look...



I know it, I hate the mix/match black and natural bodies too. One option is to add 2 natural detonator's if you can find them, but the anodization isn't a perfect match though. Plus it might look a bit weird with two grip rings so close together, and you'd still have to bore the extenders.


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## mdocod (Oct 6, 2008)

trying to use the search can be frustrating, the problem is knowing what to search FOR.

first problem is that all surefire model names are too short to work properly in the forums built in search.

The trick is to use the google search box above.

Include the model of the SureFire in question, and then try a few key words along with it to get more refined results.

"M4 rechargeable"

"M4 configuration"

"M4 options"

"M4 lumens"

"SureFire M4"


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## zx7dave (Oct 7, 2008)

Thanks for all the tips. Thought I had a plan but I really don't like the black/green mix. But I have a lot of options now, thats for all the info.


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## pete7226 (Oct 7, 2008)

I second the Wa1111 setup, thats what I use in mine. about 850 bulb lumens for 35-40 minutes. Works great, brighter than LF bulb options.


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## zx7dave (Oct 8, 2008)

BSBG said:


> There are a ton of bulbs you can run on 2x18650 if you get one of Fivemega's MN to bipin adapters. A WA1111 or Osram 64250 will give you a lot of light and decent run time.


Can I get more detail on the Wa1111 setup? Is there a good article/thread on this?


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## jumpstat (Oct 8, 2008)

With your bored out M4, I would definitely go for the 2x18650 and FM's bi-pin socket holder and the WA1111 bulb........

Look out for FM's sale tread in Custom B/S/T for bi-pin socket holder. Get that and the bulbs and you are all set.


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## djans1397 (Oct 8, 2008)

I was lucky enough to score a NIB used Leef 3 x 18650 and mated it to my M4 head and SW02 tailcap. It's a little long compared to my other lights, but MAN, does this thing put out the light runing a MN21 bulb in it. I know I'm over powering the bulb, but it's wickedly bright and the runtime seems to be ok so far. I've done no formal runtimes on this setup nor have I blown a bulb yet. I can say though that it's running noticably brighter than my ROP HI Maglight :huh:! Next to my 64623 barnburner maglight pushing 4000+ lumnes, it's the next brightest light I own.

Good luck and have fun!
Dan


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## mdocod (Oct 8, 2008)

djans1397

I assume you mean the MN61? The MN21 would never tolerate that.


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## cl0123 (Oct 8, 2008)

Ok, it's a stretched M4, isn't it? :twothumbs

With a FM MN holder, you can also try running bi-pin bulbs with that setup. I wonder if 3x18650 would flash a 1185?

With Aloha, 

Clarence



djans1397 said:


> ...a NIB used Leef 3 x 18650 and mated it to my *M4 head* and SW02 tailcap.


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## zx7dave (Oct 8, 2008)

DJANS137 - Can you post a pic of your Leef 18650x3 with KT4/SW02 setup? Would like a visual...


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## djans1397 (Oct 9, 2008)

mdocod said:


> djans1397
> 
> I assume you mean the MN61? The MN21 would never tolerate that.


 
My bad.. yes I meant a MN61, thanks mdocod. 

I'll get a pic posted ASAP. The SW02 clickie on it doesn't exactly match the Leef body, but I still love this setup.

Hope these help :thumbsup:

Dan











 

Finally figured out how to add actual pics. Thanks though cl0123


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## cl0123 (Oct 9, 2008)

from Dan's photobucket link above


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## Ray1968 (Oct 9, 2008)

djans1397 said:


> I was lucky enough to score a NIB used Leef 3 x 18650 and mated it to my M4 head and SW02 tailcap. It's a little long compared to my other lights, but MAN, does this thing put out the light runing a MN21 bulb in it. I know I'm over powering the bulb, but it's wickedly bright and the runtime seems to be ok so far. I've done no formal runtimes on this setup nor have I blown a bulb yet. I can say though that it's running noticably brighter than my ROP HI Maglight :huh:! Next to my 64623 barnburner maglight pushing 4000+ lumnes, it's the next brightest light I own.
> 
> Good luck and have fun!
> Dan


 
Would a Lumens Factory HO-M6R work OK in that setup (3 x 18650)?


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## mdocod (Oct 9, 2008)

Ray1968 said:


> Would a Lumens Factory HO-M6R work OK in that setup (3 x 18650)?



Yes, should work fine, almost an hour of runtime too.


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## cenz (Oct 9, 2008)

mdocod said:


> Yes, should work fine, almost an hour of runtime too.



hi MD,

I would like to use 3xC li-ions to push Ho-M6R, it seems to be a longer-M6 feeling...

Is it very fine for the runtime?


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## djans1397 (Oct 9, 2008)

Ray1968 said:


> Would a Lumens Factory HO-M6R work OK in that setup (3 x 18650)?


 
I actually have the LF HO-M6R bulb as well. I have an older M4 with a Lexan lens I'm sure of it. I had to carefully sand down the metal post where the bulb sits in the assembly just a tad in order for it to fit into my M4 head. I think I have an older head with a slightly different diameter hole.

The output from th LF HO-M6R isn't as bright as the MN61 being overdriven, but the life expectancy should be much longer I'm assuming. Doing a quick side by side comparison of the beam profiles and output on a white wall, the output looks nearly identical mostly. The M4 with MN61 is maybe just a little brighter. In this set up it puts out a very usable being maybe just a tad brighter than my ROP Hi setup. I know this isn't exactly scientific data and I can't do beamshots... yet. But I hope this helps!

Dan


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## mdocod (Oct 9, 2008)

Should be OK, with each step up in cell size, I think you should expect less bulb life., but I would have to imagine it would still be running within a reasonable range. 



cenz said:


> hi MD,
> 
> I would like to use 3xC li-ions to push Ho-M6R, it seems to be a longer-M6 feeling...
> 
> Is it very fine for the runtime?


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## BSBG (Oct 9, 2008)

zx7dave said:


> Can I get more detail on the Wa1111 setup? Is there a good article/thread on this?



Do a search for "Mag 11" or even "1111" and there are a ton of threads. Also see Luxluthor's bulb test: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/179748

Add the rechargeable M6 Shootout: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2577834


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## zx7dave (Oct 9, 2008)

Thanks for the pic. I wish the color matched closer. Thanks for the visual.


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## djans1397 (Oct 9, 2008)

NP. I believe LEEF said that he wasn't impressed with this run eihter given the lighter color than the SF color. To me, it's just a functional light that really lights up the view in front of you and has a very useful runtime.


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## cl0123 (Oct 14, 2008)

Fresh from the Tornadoes Alley (thanks to Bruce!) late in the afternoon...

Just adding a picture to show some size references. Most of the excellent macro shots I've seen on CPF make the actual M4's appear larger than they really are. Not to mention how lightweight they feel in your hands when compared to my old standby Mag 3D.





I changed out the OEM bulb and batteries on the M4 and ran a combination of 2x17670 + HO-M3T. Next plan of action is swapping out the HO-M3T with an WA1111. I think this would be as far as I would go for now. Hope it will not insta-flash the bulb. 

Did I already mention that the M4 feels lightweight in my hands? 

With Aloha, 

Clarence 

(Just in case if you're wondering, the purple tint came from one of my LED flashlights)


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## mdocod (Oct 14, 2008)

Hi CL0123,

The WA1111 ideally should not be used with 17670s. 

The 1111 is going to run over 3.5 amps in that configuration, it's just not healthy for those cells. 

you'll probably also have problems getting it to light on the first try, the PCB will probably try to prevent the initial inrush required to light that bulb up. 

Get a 2x18650 body for it, and run 18650s with the 1111. 

(did you get my PM?)

Eric


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## cl0123 (Oct 14, 2008)

mdocod said:


> The WA1111 ideally should not be used with 17670s.


:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs

Eric,

Mahalo! You just saved me $9, not to mention, that would be my very last WA1111 bulb I "still" have, or until the new ones come through USPS. WA1111 powered by 2x18650 protected is currently my favorite configuration. Well, at least this combo has been the most reliable, in my hands anyway. 



mdocod said:


> The 1111 is going to run over 3.5 amps in that configuration, it's just not healthy for those cells.


This is exactly the kind of information I am trying to study and understand, now that the initial frenzy of hardware acquisition is winding down. I did and just went through your message again for a second read. Your detailed explanation of the cell chemistry is really appreciated. It would be more interesting if I could familiarize myself with more information on the discharge characteristics of the various cells and also the amp-draw tendencies of the popular bulbs. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence


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## mdocod (Oct 15, 2008)

Check out luxluthors destructive incan testing (it's a sticky in the incan section "threads of interest") to get an idea of how much power consumption many of these popular bulbs run at.

There is also another thread in that list of stickies with power draw information for a number of popular tactical lamp assemblies and a few bulbs.

Then have a look at SilverFox's li-ion shootout (threads of interest sticky in battery's section). You can get an idea how a few cells perform that way. Any test that lasted less than 30 minutes is technically "over the limit." You can sort of extrapolate where you would be at with certain bulbs by studying the charts. 

Eric


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## LIGHTSMAD (Feb 12, 2009)

im trying out one of FM's 3C body setups!

3C lion body, G4 D26 bi-pin socket for a WA1185 bulb, KT-2 turbo head FM MN socket for good throw!

this should be a blast!!!


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## Justin Case (Feb 12, 2009)

If you are interested in an LED solution, you could build an AW/Arcmania tower using a Cree MC-E M-bin. If you wired it 4S, for example, and drove it with a step-up converter at 500ma per die, you could use two 17670 or 18650 cells and get about 580-660 emitter lumens and about 1-1.5 hr run time. With a K-bin, output would be about 500-580 emitter lumens. 500ma per die means about 6.6W of power, which probably exceeds the power limit of the small 14mm driver boards that fit in the AW towers, so continuous run time would be shorter to avoid smoking the driver board. If you cut back to 375ma drive per die, the power draw would be about 4.8W, which looks borderline, but perhaps ok considering that the tower and TH may act as reasonable heat sinks (although the actual regulator IC on the driver board would not be directly heat sinked and thus still vulnerable). At this reduced current to the MC-E, you might get about 405-475 emitter lumens with a little longer run time.


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