# nichel-zinc AA finally available



## davidefromitaly (Mar 14, 2009)

i just have check the ritz camera website and i have found the powergenix AA batteries and charger on sale







anyone have in mind to try them? looks promising with the higher voltage and the high current output...


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## Mr Happy (Mar 14, 2009)

Unfortunately at $50 it will not be an impulse buy. Had it been $25 I might have been tempted...


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 14, 2009)

Mr Happy said:


> Unfortunately at $50 it will not be an impulse buy. Had it been $25 I might have been tempted...



is 35 for the charger and 15 for 4 batts... not so expensive if they work well. hybrids batts cost about the same

if you have a good power supply, you can charge this batts without buy the charger, just set 1500mA CC up to 1.9V then CV at 1.9V


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## Mr Happy (Mar 14, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> is 35 for the charger and 15 for 4 batts... not so expensive if they work well. hybrids batts cost about the same


I disagree. $25 is the normal street price for a smart individual channel charger and 4 batteries. In some cases as low as $20 or even $15. A price of $50 is so far above the normal range that the product is doomed to failure.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 14, 2009)

Mr Happy said:


> I disagree. $25 is the normal street price for a smart individual channel charger and 4 batteries. In some cases as low as $20 or even $15. A price of $50 is so far above the normal range that the product is doomed to failure.



yeah i mean no expensive 15$ for 4 good batts, for the charger ok... i think is the cost for a new exclusive stuff, cause i see some simple chinese li-ion chargers at 10-15$ for 2 channels... this is really similar only the voltage is 1.9V instead of 4.2V, so the cost should drop...


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## GarageBoy (Mar 14, 2009)

What's the advantage?


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## nerdgineer (Mar 14, 2009)

GarageBoy said:


> What's the advantage?


I knew nothing 2 minutes ago, but I checked wikipedia and googled it. The claim is that it has about 30% more capacity than nimh (presumably on a per volume basis) and runs at 1.6 V instead of 1.2, making it more suitable as an alky replacement. Also it's supposed to be "greener".

Don't know about discharge life or anything like that.


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## ledaholic (Mar 14, 2009)

Just ordered a setup, we'll see. The specs are 2500ma batts, 4 single channel bays and 1 hour charge.


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## VidPro (Mar 14, 2009)

NOT, they are 2500mWatts not miliamps, tried to fool me didnt they 

http://www.powergenix.com/docs/powergenix-specs-aa.pdf

From web research (remember it was the WEB ok)
the battery would be excellent for devices that WANT a high voltage and arent geting it from ni-mh, like cameras that cut off early.
it could be Bad for devices that were doing just fine with ni-mh and alkaline and might be run a little bit harder on something like this.

like one user reported a great recycle time on thier flash, but it overheated quickly.
think aboud it, a flash item designed for both alakline and ni-nh, would be expecting aboud a 1.2v anyways, then you hit it with what looks like a good long strong 1.6+ and it might not be expecting that.

then on the other hand, if you have a device that is rather conservative, slow to recharge flash and , gives a low-battery to soon, and isnt cutting it with ni-mh but enjoys the overpriced primary Lithium cell, then it would be great for that.

also remember those cell phone chargers , and other items that wouldnt work without LITHIUM primary ~1.7V cells, something like this could be conscidered a rechargable replacement for lithium not alakline or ni-mh, providing a much more ample output voltage, and still with 1/2 the power of a lithium tossaway.

the right battery for the right job, and now there is one more.

it (obviously) will not be charged the same with your usual ni-mh charger, the differences would make charging it correctly with very FEW chargers for ni-mh, most wouldnt touch it, so at least at first expect to get the proper charger for it.

there would be no problem using them in 90% of single AA and Double AA White LEd lights, some Tripple AA and Quad AA lights it might be ovedrive for them, and of course it would be fun for hotwires , used correctally, and turning normal BULB AA driven devices into a shorter running hotwire  by default..

it would probably work a lot beter in extreeme cold, vrses ni-mh or alklaine, and the chemistry isnt concidered Low self discharge type.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 14, 2009)

OK, that data sheet is good.

They have a capacity of about 1400 mAh and can maintain a discharge voltage declining from 1.7 V to 1.5 V for most of the discharge at a 1C rate.

Charging is CC/CV with C = ~1000 mA and V = 1.9 V, tapering down to a cut-off current of 75 mA. Looks like you could almost put two in series and use a lithium ion charger (if a 3.8 V setting is available...)


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## VidPro (Mar 14, 2009)

Mr Happy said:


> OK, that data sheet is good.
> 
> They have a capacity of about 1400 mAh and can maintain a discharge voltage declining from 1.7 V to 1.5 V for most of the discharge at a 1C rate.
> 
> Charging is CC/CV with C = ~1000 mA and V = 1.9 V, tapering down to a cut-off current of 75 mA. Looks like you could almost put two in series and use a lithium ion charger (if a 3.8 V setting is available...)


 
He he, cheapskate


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## Benson (Mar 14, 2009)

I _love_ how the datasheet plots 0.2C and 0.5C on one graph, and 1C on the graph below it. :shakehead Also no maximum discharge rate.

The Wikipedia article on NiZn lists >900W/kg and 60 Wh/kg, suggesting around 15C should be possible for some NiZn cells. I wonder what _these_ ones can do... you'd think we'd see at least 5C discharge curves if they could actually run 15C.

Looks like you could _almost_ charge a 2S pack of these in a LiFePO4 charger (they're 3.7V, right?). So unless you have a hobby charger, you have to buy them with the 35$ charger. :sigh: Maybe I'll buy some -- _after_ I cave in and buy a nice charger.

Honestly, I don't see much point for these other than devices that can't use NiMH -- some digicams, and maybe some flashlights (particularly stock minimags -- but who uses incan minimags _and_ buys weird chemistry rechargables?). Maybe in bulk (electricars and such) NiZn makes sense, but AAs seem mostly pointless for flashlights.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 15, 2009)

Benson said:


> ...but AAs seem mostly pointless for flashlights.



our 1AA high power flashlights will be slightly brighter with the higher voltage

or we can use higher voltage bulbs in our mag mods

a charge without delta-V mean no more risk of wrong charge, always perfect charges exactly like our li-ion batts

due the kind of voltage drop during the discharge and charge, we can use this batteries also in parallel like a li-ion

now the limit is only our fantasy


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## Mockingbird (Mar 15, 2009)

In case anyone is looking for the batts without the charger:
http://www.wolfcamera.com/product/141660936.htm


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## Benson (Mar 15, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> our 1AA high power flashlights will be slightly brighter with the higher voltage


Our 1AA (and 2AA) unregulated flashlights, you mean? I can see that, but that's why I said mainly, not completely useless. I know I don't generally use such lights, and I think few people use them much.



> or we can use higher voltage bulbs in our mag mods
> 
> a charge without delta-V mean no more risk of wrong charge, always perfect charges exactly like our li-ion batts
> 
> ...


So they get these benefits that they are "like Li-ion"; why not just _use_ Li-ion, specifically LiMn (when a 14xx0 size becomes available) or LiFePO4 (available now)?


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## ledaholic (Mar 15, 2009)

VidPro said:


> NOT, they are 2500mWatts not miliamps, tried to fool me didnt they



They did fool me! Shame on me for not paying more attn. Guess I got snookered. I'll give em a shot and see what they are worth. I'll prolly use them in my Proton Pro and rotate them out regularly.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 15, 2009)

Benson said:


> Our 1AA (and 2AA) unregulated flashlights, you mean? I can see that, but that's why I said mainly, not completely useless. I know I don't generally use such lights, and I think few people use them much.
> 
> 
> So they get these benefits that they are "like Li-ion"; why not just _use_ Li-ion, specifically LiMn (when a 14xx0 size becomes available) or LiFePO4 (available now)?



for example a 1AA fenix can be bright quite as a 2AA... one li-ion often have a too high voltage, can burn the circuit or in the best case make levels unusable

also the eternalights can take advanteges... and nizn are much more safer, see this video

http://www.powergenix.com/technology-video.php

there is also a sub-C size battery that can sustain easily 10C rate (20 amps), don't know if the AA size have the same discharge ratio, think less but at least 3 amps should be fine

i'm agree that the price is quite high for now, but the reason is that powergenix haven't any competitor for now, is like the energizer lithium few years ago, now that are arriving some competitors they have lowered the price and presented the "cheap" version of lithium batts

for now i think to buy only the batts and try to charge them manually, if they work like i espect i will buy also a specific charger, in the while i hope the funcion will be implemented in some charger like the triton or the maha 9000


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 15, 2009)

ledaholic said:


> They did fool me! Shame on me for not paying more attn. Guess I got snookered. I'll give em a shot and see what they are worth. I'll prolly use them in my Proton Pro and rotate them out regularly.



don't worry, 2,5Wh is the same capacity of a ni-mh with 2080mAh, so this new ni-zn are like the hybrids, maybe a little more. but they are lighter and don't suffer of any memory effect or voltage depression

with regulated circuits they work at higher efficiency due the higher voltage, with boost circuits the runtime will be shorter but the output will be much brighter

(really the first time i see 2500 i thought "wow they have increased a lot from the last announcement at december" and after few seconds i have noticed the W instead of A )


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## h2xblive (Mar 15, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> don't worry, *2,5Wh is the same capacity of a ni-mh with 2080mAh*, so this new ni-zn are like the hybrids, maybe a little more. but they are lighter and don't suffer of any memory effect or voltage depression
> 
> with regulated circuits they work at higher efficiency due the higher voltage, with boost circuits the runtime will be shorter but the output will be much brighter
> 
> (really the first time i see 2500 i thought "wow they have increased a lot from the last announcement at december" and after few seconds i have noticed the W instead of A )



How did you convert the 2500 value to the 2080 value?


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## Dan FO (Mar 15, 2009)

How long will they hold a charge? The big advantage of eneloops to me is the ability to hold 80% of it's charge for a year.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 15, 2009)

h2xblive said:


> How did you convert the 2500 value to the 2080 value?



2500mWh / 1.2 nominal voltage = 2083mAh



Dan FO said:


> How long will they hold a charge? The big advantage of eneloops to me is the ability to hold 80% of it's charge for a year.



http://www.powergenix.com/technology.php

here some specs... they don't declare anything about self discharge... but you really charge your batts once per year? if yes... go with eneloops


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## Dan FO (Mar 15, 2009)

It says the nominal voltage is 1.65

2500mWh/ 1.65 NV = 1515mAh ............. no?

http://www.powergenix.com/docs/powergenix-specs-aa.pdf


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 15, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> 2,5Wh is the same capacity of a ni-mh with 2080mAh



i have compared the energy of a ni-zn to a ni-mh...


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## hopkins (Mar 16, 2009)

2500mWh = 1.6v * 1562.5mAh nic-zinc

3312.5mWh = 1.25v * 2650mAh NiMH 


Quantaray 2500mWh Ni-Zn 4-Pack Batteries Quantaray 2500mWh Ni-Zn 4-Pack Batteries Mfr # ACC-M1084 Our Stock # 141660936 4 AA Ni-Zn Rechargeable Batteries Features: Rechargeable high voltage 1.6V 2500 mWh nickel-zinc technology for high-drain applications Double the running time with a longer cycle life then Ni-Cd batteries Environmentally friendly and rechargeable No memory effect Safe chemistry Notes on battery use: Charge batteries fully before each use Charge only in a Ni-Zn battery charge Do not short
--------------------------------------
Quantaray Rechargable AA Batteries 2650 mAh 1.25V NiMH 4-Pack Quantaray Rechargable AA Batteries 2650 mAh 1.25V NiMH 4-Pack Mfr # 141660431 Our Stock # 141660431 4-AA Ni-MH super high capacity rechargeable batteries 2650 mAh 1.25 Volt nickel-metal hydride technology for digital cameras and other demanding devices Features: Environmentally friendly Double the running time with a longer cycle life than Ni-Cd batteries No Memory effect Notes on battery use: Charge fully before use.

http://www.thefind.com/electronics/browse-quantaray-rechargable-aa-batteries


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## alfreddajero (Mar 16, 2009)

Hmmmm, i might need to check this out, seems that it would go well with our single AA lights.


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## h2xblive (Mar 16, 2009)

Dan FO said:


> It says the nominal voltage is 1.65
> 
> 2500mWh/ 1.65 NV = 1515mAh ............. no?
> 
> http://www.powergenix.com/docs/powergenix-specs-aa.pdf



That's what I was thinking.

These batteries might be a neat rechargeable option for devices that like lithium AA's slight voltage boost.


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## KowShak (Mar 16, 2009)

I have two questions, how long do they last and do they suffer from the same memory effect that previous rechargeable alkaline manganese batteries did?


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 16, 2009)

KowShak said:


> I have two questions, how long do they last and do they suffer from the same memory effect that previous rechargeable alkaline manganese batteries did?



absolutely no memory effect, like a li-ion

don't know how they last, i think a lot cause the sub-C sized are used for veicles or heavy duty tools... so i suppose at least like a SLA or a li-ion batt

i'm only curious to see what happend if i abuse with ovecharge and deep discharge...


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## PhantomPhoton (Mar 16, 2009)

hopkins said:


> 2500mWh = 1.6v * 1562.5mAh nic-zinc
> 
> 3312.5mWh = 1.25v * 2650mAh NiMH



NiMh are 1.2V average not 1.5


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## josean (Mar 16, 2009)

Benson said:


> The Wikipedia article on NiZn...



The link (NiZn Batteries), if anyone is interested


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## hopkins (Mar 16, 2009)

PhantomPhoton said:


> NiMh are 1.2V average not 1.5



don't understand you PP.
This mfg lists his NiMH cells as 1.25volts. Who am I to argue. If I was to 
quibble some I'd say NiMH cells are really 1.4Volts (fresh out of the charger).


These new Ni-Zinc AA cells need some testing for sure. 
1 over discharge
2 over charge
3 short circuit 
4 smashed with a hammer when fully charged.
5 retention of charge over time

Here's the data again with link.

Quantaray Rechargable AA Batteries 2650 mAh 1.25V NiMH 4-Pack Quantaray Rechargable AA Batteries 2650 mAh 1.25V NiMH 4-Pack Mfr # 141660431 Our Stock # 141660431 4-AA Ni-MH super high capacity rechargeable batteries 2650 mAh 1.25 Volt nickel-metal hydride technology for digital cameras and other demanding devices Features: Environmentally friendly Double the running time with a longer cycle life than Ni-Cd batteries No Memory effect Notes on battery use: Charge fully before use.

http://www.thefind.com/electronics/b...e-aa-batteries


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (Mar 17, 2009)

These batteries open up some interesting possibilities.I will be building a couple of hotwire [email protected] when AlanB's regulated drivers become available.I could use a smaller host but still have the same volts.Instead of a [email protected] in a 4D host(3x4x1.2=14.4v) I could use a 3D(3x3x1.65=14.85).I would lose capacity but I would enjoy having a smaller light.


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## PhantomPhoton (Mar 17, 2009)

, my apologies hopkins. That's what I get for posting while under the influence of morning. Thought it said _1.5_ I didn't see the _2_ in there between the 1 and the 5. :nana:



Hopefully the energy density of these cells will increase with time. I can't justify buying them yet but knowing they're out there is always good. Someday I might just need them. I'd like to know if they can hold up well under higher currents (5A+) for use in hotwires. :devil: If I can get 10A out of them well then I already have a use for 12 of them.


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (Mar 17, 2009)

That's a good point PP-if these batteries can't handle 7-10 amps than I have no use for them!!!:nana:


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 17, 2009)

hopkins said:


> 4 smashed with a hammer when fully charged.



absolutely safe, see this video
http://www.powergenix.com/technology-video.php




ANDREAS FERRARI said:


> That's a good point PP-if these batteries can't handle 7-10 amps than I have no use for them!!!:nana:



the internal resistance is 20 m-ohm vs. 25 of a eneloop, so theorically they can handle much more current than hybrids... and remember that you can use them also in parallel while the ni-cd and ni-mh can't


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## VidPro (Mar 17, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> but remember that you can use them also in parallel while the ni-cd and ni-mh can't


 
you can use ni-?? in parellel just fine, if you use the correct charging alogrythm, instead of the one we believe is the only one for them.
using the same STYLE of charging that a li-ion or these batts get , you can keep from getting the V-drop which disbalances the parellel set during charging, causing some minor but solvable issues. it is not the chemistry but how we deem that chemistry be used that has made some of the bigger differences. its not the humans and the chemistry its the Machines.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 17, 2009)

VidPro said:


> you can use ni-?? in parellel just fine, if you use the correct charging alogrythm, instead of the one we believe is the only one for them.
> using the same STYLE of charging that a li-ion or these batts get , you can keep from getting the V-drop which disbalances the parellel set during charging, causing some minor but solvable issues. it is not the chemistry but how we deem that chemistry be used that has made some of the bigger differences. its not the humans and the chemistry its the Machines.



are you sure? every li-ion is considered charged at 4.2V but a ni-mh can be charged at 1.42V while another at 1.5V

in this case during the charge the one that is charged at 1.5V will take more current than the other and can be damaged, same thing during discharge.

you can evaluate this by observing the battery devices that sorrund us... if they use li-ion batts they can be also in parallel (notebook for example) but if they use ni-mh are in series only. remember the old notebooks with ni-mh batteries... always in series


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## Mr Happy (Mar 17, 2009)

Where does it say that nickel zinc batteries can be charged in parallel? I did not see that so far.


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## n3eg (Mar 17, 2009)

Two questions I have: Can you charge them at C/10 (it lists C/2 and C/1 as charge rates) and can you get more than the stated 200-500 cycles by slower charging?


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## hopkins (Mar 17, 2009)

david - nice link on the testing of the Ni-Zn cells. I'll accept that they were honest about the tests. Although a dead cell wouldn't react either if crushed.

It is cool that they went to the effort to make all those demo situations.

Think they got some sharp marketing people and want to get a piece of the battery market.

The 'green' attributes of Ni-Zn may get them extra contracts from companies that want to hail their own 'green' products.


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## crofty (Mar 18, 2009)

These look to be perfect for my cookers ignition which is on energizer lithiums atm.

I`ll be watching how they test out


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## bluepilgrim (Mar 18, 2009)

I could find only one review -- but it's not good, although he may have been overpowering the devices. The SB-600 manua http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/Speedlights/SB-600.pdf says any 4 aa cells 1.5 or less, including "1.5 v nickel"


http://www.ritzcamera.com/etc/power...-Z-Charger-for-Ni-Zn-Batteries-by-Sunpak.html
"
Cons:
DANGEROUSE

Describe Yourself:
Pro Photographer 

Bottom Line:
No, I would not recommend this to a friend
Comments about Quantaray Quantaray 1 Hour Super Z Charger for Ni-Zn Batteries by Sunpak: 
Don't buy. I had Nikon Sb 600 flash. I got this batteries and the flash stopped responding. I got another sb600 and just after a few minutes of working it burnt it. There is some kind of problem with voltage or smth. Both times the flash wouldn't take charge any more. With other batteries it worked for years. Beware
"


I see a short piece on how to charge ni-zn at http://www.powerstream.com/NZ.htm 

I don't see much at all on the web about ni-zi rechargeables in flashlight size (no AAAs for sale, which is what I was looking for) -- I'm guessing these are still more on the experimental side of the edge than the obsolete side, with Quantaray the only company selling anything so far.


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## Benson (Mar 18, 2009)

bluepilgrim said:


> I could find only one review -- but it's not good, although he may have been overpowering the devices. The SB-600 manua http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/Speedlights/SB-600.pdf says any 4 aa cells 1.5 or less, including "1.5 v nickel"
> 
> 
> http://www.ritzcamera.com/etc/power...-Z-Charger-for-Ni-Zn-Batteries-by-Sunpak.html
> ...



Yeah... Not sure I'd use a battery with a 6.8V working voltage in a 6V max application -- especially after the first one died that way. Complete voluntary disregard for specs is all well and good, but blaming the product instead of yourself?


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (Mar 18, 2009)

bluepilgrim said:


> I could find only one review -- but it's not good, although he may have been overpowering the devices. The SB-600 manua http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/Speedlights/SB-600.pdf says any 4 aa cells 1.5 or less, including "1.5 v nickel"
> 
> 
> http://www.ritzcamera.com/etc/power...-Z-Charger-for-Ni-Zn-Batteries-by-Sunpak.html
> ...




This makes me think that these are really putting out 1.65v(maybe 1.8-1.85 hot off the charger).Not the kind of batteries you want to use in a camera flash(maybe in a hotwire)!!!


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 18, 2009)

n3eg said:


> Two questions I have: Can you charge them at C/10 (it lists C/2 and C/1 as charge rates) and can you get more than the stated 200-500 cycles by slower charging?



don't know but i think after 200-500 cycles the battery don't suddently death but start to decrease in capacity or increase the internal resistance... exactly like every other kind of battery



hopkins said:


> david - nice link on the testing of the Ni-Zn cells. I'll accept that they were honest about the tests. Although a dead cell wouldn't react either if crushed.
> 
> It is cool that they went to the effort to make all those demo situations.
> 
> ...



sure, powergenix can't say that their batteries are crap  i think they want to enter in the automotive business cause their batts are cheaper than li-ion and safer



ANDREAS FERRARI said:


> This makes me think that these are really putting out 1.65v(maybe 1.8-1.85 hot off the charger).Not the kind of batteries you want to use in a camera flash(maybe in a hotwire)!!!



really that flash should be have a overheat protection, so sound strange that the cause of fault are the ni-zn batts... if it work with lithiums and oxyrides, why not with ni-zn? btw if a thing work well with ni-mh i'm agree that isn't a good idea use the ni-zn

for example a old fenix L1T can work great with a ni-zn, but the L2T don't know... i prefer to not risk


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## ledaholic (Mar 19, 2009)

Well, batteries and charger showed up yesterday. I did some initial testing, batteries were all around 1.7v. The instruction sheet says to charge 2 batteries or 4 batteries at a time but it seems the charger will charge 1 battery in any slot. I'll have to do some current measurements with 1 and 2 batteries in the charger. It also says to charge before use, so I did. All 4 batteries came off the charger at 1.9v and were very cool to the touch. If I get time this weekend, I'll do a discharge test and see what I get. I have 1 in my Proton Pro and 2 in my TK20. Neither have complained yet.

More to come.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 19, 2009)

ledaholic said:


> Well, batteries and charger showed up yesterday. I did some initial testing, batteries were all around 1.7v. The instruction sheet says to charge 2 batteries or 4 batteries at a time but it seems the charger will charge 1 battery in any slot. I'll have to do some current measurements with 1 and 2 batteries in the charger. It also says to charge before use, so I did. All 4 batteries came off the charger at 1.9v and were very cool to the touch. If I get time this weekend, I'll do a discharge test and see what I get. I have 1 in my Proton Pro and 2 in my TK20. Neither have complained yet.
> 
> More to come.



great!!!!!!! i can update the first post with your results if you like that

for the charger, maybe it have 2 channels and put 2 batts in parallel? can you try to do some measurements

i think the proton will be much brighter with the ni-nz, the TK20 don't know... there can be a little risk of to fry the circuit?


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## ledaholic (Mar 19, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> great!!!!!!! i can update the first post with your results if you like that
> 
> for the charger, maybe it have 2 channels and put 2 batts in parallel? can you try to do some measurements
> 
> i think the proton will be much brighter with the ni-nz, the TK20 don't know... there can be a little risk of to fry the circuit?



I will try to get some testing done this weekend. I really can't tell much difference with the Proton cause I normally use a Lithium primary cell. The TK20 looks to be a little brighter. Fry the circuits? Maybe, but it is in the name of CPF!


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## VidPro (Mar 20, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> are you sure? every li-ion is considered charged at 4.2V but a ni-mh can be charged at 1.42V while another at 1.5V
> 
> in this case during the charge the one that is charged at 1.5V will take more current than the other and can be damaged, same thing during discharge.
> 
> you can evaluate this by observing the battery devices that sorrund us... if they use li-ion batts they can be also in parallel (notebook for example) but if they use ni-mh are in series only. remember the old notebooks with ni-mh batteries... always in series


 
i was not referring to the voltage of the cell item, but the STYLE of charge that is applied, and yes i am sure, because i do things like that all the time, BUT within the limitations of the way the items act.

sure there is the BOX many things are limited to, and some things it would be deemed to be impractical to use that method of charging, but there is no reason for the BOX, there are always many methods, just because they arent USED, or available , doesnt make things impossible.

now i am not saying i do the impossible  i have just seen the problems, and have used manuel alogrythms that work just fine, all it takes is a minor understanding of how exactally the stuff reacts with different currents, voltages, and ramps, and . . . Hey and JUST like these cells, i bet there is more than one way they can be charged IF i stay within the paremeters of the cell. WHY are these cells using the same Voltage MAX charge alogrythm STYLE that li-ion uses , because the cells never build up pressure, the charge is a very good charge. the same thing can be done with ni-mh, or a person could screw it up and use thier college degree  instead of thier battery knowlege and believe it cant be done.

the limitations arent on the batteries usually , they are on the whole knowlege process instead.


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (Mar 20, 2009)

Could anyone tell me how many amps these batteries can handle.Maybe an educated guess? ledaholic-looking forward to your testing!


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## ledaholic (Mar 21, 2009)

I stuck a single cell in my C9000 and discharged. It was late so I couldn't watch the entire process. I discharged @ 500ma. It held it's voltage very nicely, when I went to bed, the cell was @ 1124mah and voltage was @ 1.56.

When I got up, the final mah was 1504. The cell had recovered back to 1.68v and worked fine in my Proton Pro.

I then tried to figure out the charger, I made an adapter to measure current @ the cell and quickly discovered the charger is using a pulse charge. I couldn't get a good reading. The back of the charger says 1500max2. I added another cell and really couldn't tell any difference in output. I left the discharged cell in by itself and it seems to have charged fine. These cells don't get very warm while charging. I think for what I'll be using them for they will be keepers.

Bob


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## MattK (Mar 21, 2009)

The 'real deal' IMO with this technology is as a NiCd replacement products for RoHs countries; not as a NiMh replacement.

This product doesn't have the energy density of NiMh but it will outperform NiCd and without using cadmium making it a 'greener' product. NiCd batteries, for those not aware, are not legal for sale in the EU anymore as of like 2 years ago.

The technology has existed for a few years but, for the consumer side, there were no chargers for them as a NiMh or NiCd charger would significantly undercharge them as, IIRC, they need a charge voltage of like 1.8V.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 21, 2009)

MattK said:


> This product doesn't have the energy density of NiMh but it will outperform NiCd and without using cadmium making it a 'greener' product. NiCd batteries, for those not aware, are not legal for sale in the EU anymore as of like 2 years ago.



are you sure? ledaholic have read 1504mAh x 1.65V: is a capacity of 2482mWh, now how many ni-mh batts do you know that have a higher capacity and the same high-drain potential? all we now what happends to the 2700mAh ni-mh with a high drain application...



> The technology has existed for a few years but, for the consumer side, there were no chargers for them as a NiMh or NiCd charger would significantly undercharge them as, IIRC, they need a charge voltage of like 1.8V.



no no pay attention, use a ni-zn on a ni-mh charger could be dangerous, if the charger have only a timer should be ok, you just need to calculate the right time, but if it have a deltaV you risk to overcharge the battery, cause the deltaV never happend and the charger continue to charge also at 1.9V




ledaholic said:


> I stuck a single cell in my C9000 and discharged. It was late so I couldn't watch the entire process. I discharged @ 500ma. It held it's voltage very nicely, when I went to bed, the cell was @ 1124mah and voltage was @ 1.56.
> 
> When I got up, the final mah was 1504. The cell had recovered back to 1.68v and worked fine in my Proton Pro.
> 
> ...



thanks for the test. now should be interesting if the capacity will increase a bit after few cycles. then you should try to measure the self discharge of a cell or two


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## Mr Happy (Mar 21, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> no no pay attention, use a ni-zn on a ni-mh charger could be dangerous, if the charger have only a timer should be ok, you just need to calculate the right time, but if it have a deltaV you risk to overcharge the battery, cause the deltaV never happend and the charger continue to charge also at 1.9V


Actually, I doubt that many NiMH or NiCd chargers will get up to 1.9 V as that voltage is much higher than the voltage normally needed to charge them. I suspect in many cases the cell would get up to about 1.6 or 1.7 V and then charging would stop when the voltage is max'ed out.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 21, 2009)

Mr Happy said:


> Actually, I doubt that many NiMH or NiCd chargers will get up to 1.9 V as that voltage is much higher than the voltage normally needed to charge them. I suspect in many cases the cell would get up to about 1.6 or 1.7 V and then charging would stop when the voltage is max'ed out.



i have the lacrosse bc900 and it can easily continue to charge also when the voltage raise at 1.8-1.9V, other chargers should have a voltage limiter, don't know...


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## MattK (Mar 21, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> are you sure? ledaholic have read 1504mAh x 1.65V: is a capacity of 2482mWh, now how many ni-mh batts do you know that have a higher capacity and the same high-drain potential? all we now what happends to the 2700mAh ni-mh with a high drain application...
> 
> 
> 
> no no pay attention, use a ni-zn on a ni-mh charger could be dangerous, if the charger have only a timer should be ok, you just need to calculate the right time, but if it have a deltaV you risk to overcharge the battery, cause the deltaV never happend and the charger continue to charge also at 1.9V



Yes: assuming 1504 * 1.65 = 2.482Wh then 2700mah x 1.2 = 3.24Wh - close to twice that Watt hours. Even if you looked at specialty high-discharge rate NiMh which can support 10C or even higher discharge rates while offering 1800-2000mah then we're looking at basically identical performance but maintaining the ability to use standard NiMh charging systems. 

Both standard Nimh, specialty high discharge and low self-discharge handle fairly high discharge rates. Also, the powergenix data sheets shows 1500mah as the nominal with minimal at 1350 so assuming 1500mah might be a bit of a leap; a real, quality nimh 2700 should see 2650+. The powergenix data sheets doesn't show discharge curves or data beyond 1C

I am 'paying attention' there's no need to be rude. I've specifically been told by 2 factories that NiZn should not be charged on NiMh chargers; their charge voltage is too low to full charge the batteries regardless of termination method. CC/CV to 1.9V is not the same as CC/CV to 1.4V.

That video and their marketing information is a bit misleading; yes, it's safer and than li-ion, yes, it's green than NiCd but NiMh is as good or better on both counts and doesn't have a voltage likely to damage many consumer products. They compare themselves to 'li-ion' but it's LiFePO4 which is a lower energy density chemistry. Also they even said they have higher energy density than 'traditional NiMh' but we've just shown that's not true with their AA's having about 60% of the Wh of NiMh AA and their SC having about the same 40% LESS capacity even when we use their nominal, not minimal rating.

Reading back throught the posts here I'm also left wondering how you can assert that NimH and NiCd cannot be put in parallel; there's tens of millions of nimh/nicd packs in many configuration of parallel and serial configuration on the market and their has been for DECADES.

I'm gonna say it; the #1 application for these cells is not 'consumer electronics.' I predict, early on, the majority go into 'solar garden lights' for the EU market.


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## MattK (Mar 21, 2009)

Oh and seriosuly - marketing them as 2500mWh? Cmon.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 21, 2009)

MattK said:


> Yes: assuming 1504 * 1.65 = 2.482Wh then 2700mah x 1.2 = 3.24Wh - close to twice that Watt hours. Even if you looked at specialty high-discharge rate NiMh which can support 10C or even higher discharge rates while offering 1800-2000mah then we're looking at basically identical performance but maintaining the ability to use standard NiMh charging systems.



don't exist 2700 REAL mAh AA, silverfox prove it in his tests. and high discharge ni-mh at 1800-2000mAh have just the same Wh of this ni-zn

ni-zn are just arrived, they can improve the density and lower the cost, the chemistry is promising

we must test also how fast they degrade compared to high capacity ni-mh and compared to lsd



> I am 'paying attention' there's no need to be rude.



sorry if my words can appear rude sometime, english isn't my native language so i can write something wrong



> They compare themselves to 'li-ion' but it's LiFePO4 which is a lower energy density chemistry.



they compare at the same safety level, all we know that standard li-ion or li-poly have higher density



> how you can assert that NimH and NiCd cannot be put in parallel; there's tens of millions of nimh/nicd packs in many configuration of parallel and serial configuration on the market and their has been for DECADES.



can you give me some example?

everybody can do a search on google and find a lot of discussion about the parallel charging for the ni-mh ni-cd... all they discourage the method cause the little difference in the voltage during the charge

http://tlb.org/nimhboom.html

sure you can do that but with very well selected cells and at low currents... at least if you use one cell (1.2v). in the case of series/parallel charge can happend that the average voltage can match more easy, more cells in series and more probability to have the same voltage... but you must use really robust cells... don't know how can last 2700mAh AA...



MattK said:


> Oh and seriosuly - marketing them as 2500mWh? Cmon.



that's marketing... how do you exaplain to a average man that is capable to see only the mAh that the voltage is different and the boost circuits can work at higher efficiency... try to go in some digital camera forum and see how many peoples are desperate cause they buy the new "fantastic" 3900mAh batts but on their camera last only few shoots...


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## ledaholic (Mar 21, 2009)

MattK said:


> Oh and seriosuly - marketing them as 2500mWh? Cmon.



I have to admit, I was surprised when i realized that statement. I'm always looking for new technology to try and I think these will work well for my intentions. Now to see about shelf life, Matt, do you have any insight on this?


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## Mockingbird (Mar 22, 2009)

RoHS  Must confess, I had to look it up. ("Restriction of Hazardous Substances") I'm looking forward to more info on these batteries.


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## MattK (Mar 22, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> don't exist 2700 REAL mAh AA, silverfox prove it in his tests. and high discharge ni-mh at 1800-2000mAh have just the same Wh of this ni-zn


Incorrect. There are true nominal 2700mah cells. A 'true' 2700mah cells will test at 2650-2700+. We test cells using both CBA II's and a few Cadex machines and we've seen any number of cells actually attain 2700mah. 



davidefromitaly said:


> ni-zn are just arrived, they can improve the density and lower the cost, the chemistry is promising
> 
> we must test also how fast they degrade compared to high capacity ni-mh and compared to lsd



Promising. Yes
Interesting. Yes.
Already competetive with NiMh or accurate claims in that video? LOL.






davidefromitaly said:


> sorry if my words can appear rude sometime, english isn't my native language so i can write something wrong
> they compare at the same safety level, all we know that standard li-ion or li-poly have higher density


No worries. That video is still misleading.



davidefromitaly said:


> can you give me some example?
> 
> everybody can do a search on google and find a lot of discussion about the parallel charging for the ni-mh ni-cd... all they discourage the method cause the little difference in the voltage during the charge
> 
> sure you can do that but with very well selected cells and at low currents... at least if you use one cell (1.2v). in the case of series/parallel charge can happend that the average voltage can match more easy, more cells in series and more probability to have the same voltage... but you must use really robust cells... don't know how can last 2700mAh AA...



Seriously? How about just about ever RC car pack, most tool and many computer packs until a few years ago, every cordless phone...or do you mean trying to parallel charge loose cells of various charge states on a hobby charger??





davidefromitaly said:


> that's marketing... how do you exaplain to a average man that is capable to see only the mAh that the voltage is different and the boost circuits can work at higher efficiency... try to go in some digital camera forum and see how many peoples are desperate cause they buy the new "fantastic" 3900mAh batts but on their camera last only few shoots...



It's an intentional effort to mislead less than savvy consumers - it even 'tricked' some of the readers here. Pointing at other bad practices doesn't excuse this one IMO.

ledaholic - I don't have any input on shelf life at the moment. We took a hard look at this etch ~2 years ago so I'll have to dig out some older docs to answer that. The real stumbling block for us was 'what' applications and having to build a new type of charger with unknown marketability. These cells are pretty cheap; price closer to NiCd so the appeal given their low cost was as a NiCd replacement; not a NiMh replacement because no one wants the liability of blowing up ppls consumer devices.


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## n3eg (Mar 22, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> everybody can do a search on google and find a lot of discussion about the parallel charging for the ni-mh ni-cd... all they discourage the method cause the little difference in the voltage during the charge
> 
> http://tlb.org/nimhboom.html


 
If you look at his picture, his batteries were in series then paralleled, rather than parallel cells in series. Ouch.


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (Mar 23, 2009)

MattK as I asked earlier in this thread-how many amps can these cells handle? I would like to use them a "623 or at least with the 64430 bulb(close to 8 amps).


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## VidPro (Mar 23, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> everybody can do a search on google and find a lot of discussion about the parallel charging for the ni-mh ni-cd... all they discourage the method cause the little difference in the voltage during the charge
> 
> http://tlb.org/nimhboom.html
> 
> sure you can do that but with very well selected cells and at low currents... ...


 
with Low currents indeed, and that person still doesnt seem to have any concept of what he did wrong, and makes 2 statements on the web page that shows he doesnt know.
He said 
"*and as the cells get hot, their voltage goes down and they will accept more charge at a given voltage, leading to thermal runaway. However, it shouldn't be possible for a cool pack to discharge into the parallel hot pack, because the voltages don't change that much. "*

which is so totally untrue , and the longer and the HARDER he hit it (at the 1C rate) he created the scenario that would do exactally that.

and 
*"The idea of a microprocessor-based peak-detecting charger is scary. What happens when the code crashes, or the microprocessor fails in any one of a million ways? "*

or better yet what happens when a human parellels a set , Fast charges them with a charger that wont voltage limit , and thinks some stupid machine is going to see a v-drop when one parelell set is going up while the other is going down.

not to mention the other misteaks he made, like thermal insulation AND fast charring, probably no barrier to shorts on insulation peelback, and no thermal disconnect, or fuse obviously in a LOCATION that would have been usefull, as opposed to at the end of a wire somewhere 

i hope he is happy with what his $100 charger did to his $100 batteries , when a $5 wall wart and a $1 thermal fuse could have prevented the problem


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 23, 2009)

ANDREAS FERRARI said:


> MattK as I asked earlier in this thread-how many amps can these cells handle? I would like to use them a "623 or at least with the 64430 bulb(close to 8 amps).



i would like to help you, i have a charger/discharger that can handle up to 6.5A in both ways but actually i don't know how to import that batteries here in italy

anyway remember that you can put these ni-zn in parallel without any problem, for example 3 or 4 of them in the place of a single D (we must ask to ledaholic the right diameter) so the current isn't a problem


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## MattK (Mar 23, 2009)

VidPro said:


> w
> i hope he is happy with what his $100 charger did to his $100 batteries , when a $5 wall wart and a $1 thermal fuse could have prevented the problem



LOL


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## snakebite (Mar 23, 2009)

i found that safety video deceptive.
short any cell with low internal resistance and high energy density and its going to do something nasty.
i would expect it to heat up,vent,or explode.
a short turns this energy directly to heat.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 23, 2009)

snakebite said:


> i found that safety video deceptive.
> short any cell with low internal resistance and high energy density and its going to do something nasty.
> i would expect it to heat up,vent,or explode.
> a short turns this energy directly to heat.



well they write often things like this



powergenix said:


> # Expensive safety power control systems and manufacturing processes required by lithium-ion batteries are not necessary for a nickel-zinc battery, making a nickel-zinc about 1/2 the cost per watt hour of a lithium-ion battery.
> 
> # The materials used in a nickel-zinc battery are not combustible, so they can not explode, making them inherently much safer than a lithium-ion battery.



maybe there is something true...


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## Mr Happy (Mar 23, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> anyway remember that you can put these ni-zn in parallel without any problem


Where does it say this? I still have not seen a manufacturer reference confirming it.


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## cave dave (Mar 23, 2009)

MattK said:


> Oh and seriosuly - marketing them as 2500mWh? Cmon.




Actually they are the first company to *do it right*, by listing the energy density. All companies should list the mWh.


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## MattK (Mar 23, 2009)

That's an interesting point Dave but I don't believe, based upon their video and other marketing information, that this was their intention. Since all Nickel based rechargeables until now have been 1.2V nominal mah was just as accurate and valid as mW.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 23, 2009)

Mr Happy said:


> Where does it say this? I still have not seen a manufacturer reference confirming it.



i deduct it by observing the charging method, is like the li-ion cells, by the voltage you can understand the level of charge or discharge


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## ledaholic (Mar 23, 2009)

The dimensions of the 1 cell I measured are .56x1.98 in. My good calipers are at home. I'll check it again when I get home.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 23, 2009)

ledaholic said:


> The dimensions of the 1 cell I measured are .56x1.98 in. My good calipers are at home. I'll check it again when I get home.



ouch... they can't fit 4 by 4 in a unbored-out mag... (at least until we try to replace the standard plastic insulator with a thinner one)

thanks for the info

now we can consider what kind of mod we can do with them in series multiple by 3 or 3 in parallel and then in series depend on the lenght of the mag

in series we can have a average voltage of:

mag 2D: 9.9V
mag 3D: 14.85V
mag 4D: 19.8V
mag 5D: 24.75V
mag 6D: 29.7V

3 in parallel and then in series:

mag 2D: 3.3V
mag 3D: 4.95V
mag 4D: 6.6V
mag 5D: 8.25V
mag 6D: 9.9V


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## bluepilgrim (Mar 23, 2009)

I don't know who sells them but http://www.powergenix.com/technology.php has a spec sheet for sub-C. I expect eventually they will make D cells and AAA too -- maybe other sizes -- if the AAs make them money. AA, AAA, C, and D are listed on the chart at http://www.powergenix.com/denomination-chart.php.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 23, 2009)

sub-C is the first developed size and is just in use in some high-drain application like power tools and some industrial electric veicle, like elevators...

D size will be developed for best suit in hybrid cars, electric bycicles and maybe in some full-electric cars

AAA don't know... depend on the success of the AA size, also if actually i don't know any high-drain mass-market device that use AAA batts... (our flashlights aren't considered mass-market )


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## ledaholic (Mar 23, 2009)

I re-measured, same as before.


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## bob_ninja (Mar 25, 2009)

Hmmm, interesting. However voltage issue ....

The nominal voltage is supposed to be 1.5V with the understanding that conventional cells drop some under load. For general electronics and low drain apps of course the drop is not big, so still around 1.4V or thereabouts.

Then came NiCd and NiMH with nominal 1.25V ranging down to 1.2V or 1.1V (again assuming general electronics lower drains). So we already have a 1.1V to 1.5V range.

Now these go up to 1.7V (or hot off the charger as much as 1.9V)! So now the range has exploded to 1.1 - 1.8 volts!!!!!

How are devices supposed to be able to deal with such a wide range? I am bit concerned that their high voltage may fry more than just some camera flashes?!?!

The other question is on mixing. Consider your typical device using 2 AAs in series. What about combining NiMH AA with NiZn AA in order to get the average 1.5V (per cell)?

1.25V + 1.7V = very close to 3V (1.5V / cell)

I am thinking a low IR like Eneloop combined with NiZn in series may not get out of balance too much. Again, assuming low drain eneral electronics!

Just thinking out aloud ...


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## bluepilgrim (Mar 25, 2009)

A danger here, which happens sometimes even with similar cells (I've seen theis happen with primary cells in a light), is: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechargeable_battery#Reverse_charging

Reverse charging

Reverse charging, which damages batteries, is when a rechargeable battery is recharged with its polarity reversed. Reverse charging can occur under a number of circumstances, the two most important being:

When a battery is incorrectly inserted into a charger.
When multiple batteries are used in series in a device. When one battery completely discharges ahead of the rest, the other batteries in series may force the discharged battery to discharge to below zero voltage.


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## Benson (Mar 25, 2009)

bob_ninja said:


> Hmmm, interesting. However voltage issue ....
> 
> The nominal voltage is supposed to be 1.5V with the understanding that conventional cells drop some under load. For general electronics and low drain apps of course the drop is not big, so still around 1.4V or thereabouts.


For Alkalines (and for primaries in general) the rated voltage is the voltage of a fresh cell. They start at up to 1.65V for a very fresh cell under no load, but they are considered useful down to at least 0.8V, and there's not much harm in using them farther in single-cell applications, because you can't recharge it anyway. (Obviously, in multi-cell applications you can't go to 0 without reversing one cell, so there's some practical limit depending on cell uniformity to how deep you might drain a battery.)



> Then came NiCd and NiMH with nominal 1.25V ranging down to 1.2V or 1.1V (again assuming general electronics lower drains). So we already have a 1.1V to 1.5V range.


Yes, but rechargeables are generally characterized by a working voltage, not a maximum -- so a 1.2 or 1.25V rated cell actually starts at 1.4V or higher, drops to 1.25V or so, stays pretty flat through most of the discharge, and then drops off when empty; discharge should be stopped no lower than 0.8V (cutting off at 1V or so gives better cycle life). So any one or two cell application that uses alkalines fully will also do fine on NiMH, although some special cases react differently (for example, a typical incan flashlight will be dimmer on NiMH than alkalines at first, even though it'll keep this level longer, so you can use alkalines and stop when they're half used, and some applications depend on the battery's internal resistance.)



> Now these go up to 1.7V (or hot off the charger as much as 1.9V)! So now the range has exploded to 1.1 - 1.8 volts!!!!!


Well, the stretch isn't as big as it looks like (considering how much of the low end is still the same), but yes, these won't work in all devices. But a lot of applications will be just fine. 




> How are devices supposed to be able to deal with such a wide range? I am bit concerned that their high voltage may fry more than just some camera flashes?!?!


Well, they already have to deal with a wide range -- 0.8 to 1.5V is almost double, so anything that needs regulation is already being regulated. But it's true, particular in 4-cell or higher applications, that these may be a bit too much. One thing, though: you know these are safe in any device that can also take an RCRV3 battery, since they're already good for up to 4.2V open-circuit.



> The other question is on mixing. Consider your typical device using 2 AAs in series. What about combining NiMH AA with NiZn AA in order to get the average 1.5V (per cell)?
> 
> 1.25V + 1.7V = very close to 3V (1.5V / cell)
> 
> ...


The internal resistance is not the issue -- the issue is matched capacity, but the capacity has to be matched not to the standard cutoff voltage for each cell, but to the point at which they're actually stopped. So different cameras, with different cutoff voltages, might work out differently.

It's not a good practice in general, but it's workable if you know exactly what you're doing, and if you're sure the device you're using it in will stop at an appropriate voltage so neither cell is overdischarged. You also need to _know_ both cells are fully charged, so my tendency, if I did this, would be to only load them both fresh off the charger.


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## davidefromitaly (Mar 25, 2009)

bob_ninja said:


> The other question is on mixing. Consider your typical device using 2 AAs in series. What about combining NiMH AA with NiZn AA in order to get the average 1.5V (per cell)?
> 
> 1.25V + 1.7V = very close to 3V (1.5V / cell)



you must find a 1500mAh ni-mh, but in general i suggest to do not use ni-zn when ni-mh work fine, the higher voltage can be a problem

for example, a single AA led light or a 2AA digital camera can take the benefit of a higher voltage, also a higher efficiency of the DC-DC converter

but a 2-3AA flashlight or a 4AA digital camera or a 4AA flash can be a problem... so do not risk until the manufacturer don't declare it's safe


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## jtr1962 (Mar 25, 2009)

Interesting. These seem like a great option for devices which work better with lithium AAs. And the charging algorithm is very simple. A contant voltage/constant current circuit with a charge cutoff when the current falls under a certain value (75 mA in this case) is pretty easy to make. I expect we'll see higher capacities and lower prices in the near future as the technology matures. Very exciting to see so many rechargeable battery options these days.

Also, I don't think the higher voltage should present a problem in most devices. Most devices will work fine, even better, with AA lithiums, and those are about 1.8V right out of the pack. Most electronics can tolerate a fairly wide voltage range (2V up to 6V or 7V is fairly common for lots of logic ICs). A four cell device using alkalines might be about 6.6V with fresh cells. With these it would be about 7.2V-marginally high but not enough to cause problems most of the time. If you let the cells sit a while before putting them in the device they shouldn't cause any problems. I would imagine any device where voltage is really critical will have built-in voltage regulators anyway.


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## ledaholic (May 5, 2009)

**Update**
It's been a little over a month now and I'm still on the first charge in my Proton Pro. I pulled the cell this morning and it read 1.695V. This is my EDC and it is used briefly daily. I also put a set in my TK20 that I don't use much but are still going strong. I have nothing bad to say about these cells yet.
More to come later.


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## davidefromitaly (May 5, 2009)

happy to hear that ledaholic. 1.65v without load i think is near depleted

i belive that in single AA lights, the ni-zn can allow the driver board to run at higher efficiency, can you do a runtime test with a luxmeter?

honestly, i can't understand why this new battery is ignored by the 99% of this forum, we are always at the search of the best led, best reflector, best driver board, best charger...

now there is a battery that can run better than a ni-mh on the 1AA lights, higher output but without the risk of a 14500 li-ion, it use a simple CC/CV charger (i must list all the problems with the ni-mh with the -dV? all the problem in the firmwares of the BC900 and C9000 chargers?)

if only i haven't a problem with the italian custom i can buy some of them and start the testing


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## ledaholic (May 5, 2009)

Sorry, no runtime test with luxmeter. I can say that I put one in my D10 and ran it on high for 1 hour. I didn't visually see any difference in output for whatever that is worth. The D10 was getting warm and I had to leave so I turned it off before the light dimmed. Back to the Proton Pro, my mistake, the batt voltage was 1.695, not 1.65.


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## SemiMan (May 5, 2009)

I liked the 4.5mohm resistance of their sub-C battery now I just need to find out where to get it. To the point of green, that would make a great replacement for NiCd in power tools. There is a big push for Li-Ion power tools, but they are very expensive and while lighter, they do not have that much better run time than NiCd with 2Ah sub-C NiCd batteries to build cells. These would make for a nice almost 2Ah battery pack for a power tool.

The higher forward voltage will also make for nice 3AA (or Sub-C) if you can get your hands on it LED lights. 4.5V through much of the capacity will be good for simple buck regulators or linear if you do not mind throwing out heat.

Semiman


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## SemiMan (May 5, 2009)

Shamelessly quoted from the PowerGenix website:

http://www.powergenix.com/hev.php

" PowerGenix is currently developing a nickel-zinc D cell for use initially in smaller mobility applications such as scooters and power-assisted bikes. PowerGenix will then further develop this NiZn D cell technology with select strategic partners for use in the HEV's as an alternative to nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion. "


Compared to A123 Lithium, their energy density is not that bad so it is something to consider.


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## Benson (May 5, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> honestly, i can't understand why this new battery is ignored by the 99% of this forum, we are always at the search of the best led, best reflector, best driver board, best charger...


Well, I can't speak for the whole 99%, but for myself:
Almost no feedback on how well they actually work. Not that I expect trouble, but why not wait a couple months and hear if there _are_ problems? (BTW, thanks ledaholic! Keep the updates coming... :thumbsup
I don't have a charger for them, so I'd have to spend $35 extra to use them; better to save that up for the hobby charger I'll get eventually, anyway.
Almost no advantage over NiMH and LiFePO4 for my uses.
All my AA devices run fine on LSD NiMH and/or LiCo (which I already have decent chargers for).
No stock AA incans to hotwire.*
I'm not a big fan of the draw-insane-currents-from-fifty-tiny-cells-in-series approach to Mag hotwires, preferring large-bore Li-ions.
The only really appealing use suggested so far is the 3s approach for a regulated 1D, but I don't really need _another_ jacket light right now, so I'm more interested in 2D and up builds. 8 of these in a quad-bore, or even 9 straight, can't match 2 26700s for energy.

*Although I just now realized: I have two 2xAA MiniMags running stock 3-cell modules (a 3xAA LuxIII, and the *superb* 3xD Rebel) with 1x14670 cell. I had planned to cut these down to 14670, or maybe even 14500, and I still might (custom is more fun, right?), but now it makes me wonder whether they'd run ok on 2 of these -- if they don't cut out early, they'd get noticeably (~20%) longer runtime. I'll have to check their dropout voltage on a power-supply later.

Even if they'd work, though, it's still not worth blowing $50 to pick up 20% runtime, IMHO. I will post back with results, though, because if they would work, it makes the perfect no-tool mod for those looking for an excuse to buy these. :nana:


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## Barrie (May 6, 2009)

are these cells only available in the US at the moment i cannot find them listed for sale on any UK or European suppliers sites


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## davidefromitaly (May 6, 2009)

only from ritz camera for now, they have the exlusive, that's why the price is quite high


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## ledaholic (May 25, 2009)

Well, I finally had to charge the Ni-Zn battery in my Proton Pro. Not too bad, about a month and a half of edc. I think I can live with that.


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## davidefromitaly (May 27, 2009)

ledaholic said:


> Well, I finally had to charge the Ni-Zn battery in my Proton Pro. Not too bad, about a month and a half of edc. I think I can live with that.



nice, can you do some kind of test about the self discharge?


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## Turbo DV8 (May 28, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> http://tlb.org/nimhboom.html


 

He said he was using them in his "EuniCycle." But is that a bicycle seat post I see in the picture attached near the batteries? Maybe he meant "EunuchCycle."


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## Mockingbird (Jun 24, 2009)

I have been doing a crude self-discharge test on one of my Ni-Zn batteries for a week now. It started at 1.697 volts last Wednesday and it's at 1.662 today (Wednesday). So - .005 volts per day. It is just sitting on my desk - not in a flashlight.


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## ledaholic (Jun 26, 2009)

I found another outlet Here for these batts and charger a little cheaper than Ritz Camera. I like them so I ordered a second set.


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## davidefromitaly (Jun 27, 2009)

Mockingbird said:


> I have been doing a crude self-discharge test on one of my Ni-Zn batteries for a week now. It started at 1.697 volts last Wednesday and it's at 1.662 today (Wednesday). So - .005 volts per day. It is just sitting on my desk - not in a flashlight.



determine the left capacity of a battery by reading the voltage without a load isn't accurate. do you have some battery analizer like the maha C9000 or lacrosse BC900?



ledaholic said:


> I found another outlet Here for these batts and charger a little cheaper than Ritz Camera. I like them so I ordered a second set.



very good... 35$ instead of 49€ from ritz camera for 4 batts and the charger, i'm sure when there will be more competition between distributors the price will drop at ni-cd level (i.e. 1-1.5 per batt.)


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## Mockingbird (Jun 28, 2009)

"determine the left capacity of a battery by reading the voltage without a load isn't accurate. do you have some battery analizer like the maha C9000 or lacrosse BC900?"

I do not have a battery analyzer. All I have is a DMM. The ad in the link referred to in post #95 describes these batteries as 1.65 volt rechargeables, but 1.6 volts is printed on the battery, and now that my test battery is approaching 1.65 it is losing less voltage. So, the resting voltage of these batteries could very well be 1.65 volts. On June 24, I measured the voltage at 1.662. Today (June 28) it measured 1.654. 

By the way, I do not have a Nickel-Zinc charger. I have been charging two batteries in series using a 3.6 volt lithium-ion battery charger, monitoring it closely and aborting the process when one battery reaches 1.7 volts.
They don't even feel warm at this point. Has anyone who has the proper charger noticed if the batteries get warm and at what voltage the process of charging terminates?


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## davidefromitaly (Jun 28, 2009)

Mockingbird said:


> I have been charging two batteries in series using a 3.6 volt lithium-ion battery charger, monitoring it closely and aborting the process when one battery reaches 1.7 volts.
> They don't even feel warm at this point. Has anyone who has the proper charger noticed if the batteries get warm and at what voltage the process of charging terminates?



you haven't charged at 100% the batteries  ni-zn must be charged at 1.9V CC/CV, try to use something else... if you have skill with solder iron try with a zener diode and a >1.9V 1000mA power supply


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## AFAustin (Jun 28, 2009)

Looks like Amazon may have the charger + cells combo at an even better price---if and when they get them in stock: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0029NZVZ0/?tag=cpf0b6-20

Also: Any info. on when an AAA cell will be available? I sent an inquiry to PowerGenix as well, and will post any response I receive.


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## Mockingbird (Jul 7, 2009)

The rate of voltage loss of my test battery has definitely slowed down. On June 28, it tested at 1.654 volts and today (July 7) it tested at 1.638. So, that averages out to .0017 volts per day over the last 9 days. 1.638 volts divided by .0017 volts per day gives 988 days to reach zero volts *if* it were to maintain this rate of loss. Like I said before, this is just a crude test. But, I'm liking what I see.


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## ledaholic (Jul 7, 2009)

I haven't done any real shelf life test but have only charged the cell in my EDC Proton Pro once since I got them in mid March. The 2 cells in my TK20 have been in the light since new and still run the light fine. I don't use the TK20 much, but it works when I need it. I feel like the discharge rate is acceptable for me.


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## bcwang (Aug 10, 2009)

I wonder if this cell gives enough voltage to run the Quark AA or Fenix L1D at turbo levels similar to the 2AA tube. Anyone give that a try?


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## filibuster (Aug 24, 2009)

depoteco.com has the charger with a 4 pack for $29.99. Add another 4 pack for $12.99 and get free shipping.


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## bcwang (Aug 24, 2009)

filibuster said:


> depoteco.com has the charger with a 4 pack for $29.99. Add another 4 pack for $12.99 and get free shipping.



amazon sells it too. Free shipping.

And the answer to my own question. No, 1.6-1.7v is still not enough to run the L2D or the Quark AA at full 2xAA turbo levels. The quark requires above 2v, 2.2v in my case, 2.4v for hkj's case. My L2D still requires 1.76v to be in regulated turbo.

But...it is brighter in turbo than with regular AA batteries, even if not as bright as 2 cells.


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## ThunderCloud (Nov 15, 2009)

These have now dropped to _very _reasonable prices.

4 batteries + charger for $22.71 USD on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_e...ias=electronics&field-brandtextbin=PowerGenix



ledaholic said:


> Well, batteries and charger showed up yesterday. I did some initial testing, batteries were all around 1.7v. The instruction sheet says to charge 2 batteries or 4 batteries at a time but it seems *the charger will charge 1 battery in any slot.*


Which charger did you pick up? Is it the 1 hour fast charger or the 5 hours quick charger? And which brand? Powergenix or Quantaray?

I think I'll pick some up for my Nitecore EZ-AA and my Kodak camera that takes CRV3 (3.6v). Right now I can only take a couple of pictures using Eneloops, will these NiZn work well with my camera?

Since the voltage of these cells are higher, is there a danger of over discharging them if I wait for my camera to turn off by itself or my regulated flashlight (EZ AA) to dim?


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## MarioJP (Nov 15, 2009)

Actually you can probably put these batteries in the La crosse charger and have it do a discharge test to see how much capacity these cells really have.

Which brings up to the next question. What happens if the voltage drops below 1.3v since the la crosse will discharge to 0.90v?

I did this with a Alkaline battery lol.


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## Conan (Nov 17, 2009)

My Powergenix charger along with an 8 pack of extra batteries arrived today. I'm currently charging them as I type this. I plan to use them in my Pentax DSLR that uses four AA batteries but works best with Energizer Lithiums rather than Eneloops (auto-focus is more responsive).

I also ordered an Eagletac P20A2 that has yet to arrive. Maybe I'll also try these batteries on that flashlight when it arrives.


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## davidefromitaly (Nov 17, 2009)

i suggest you to don't use fresh of charger batts in the pentax, at least for the first time, then if you don't notice any problem you can try that


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## Conan (Nov 18, 2009)

davidefromitaly said:


> i suggest you to don't use fresh of charger batts in the pentax, at least for the first time, then if you don't notice any problem you can try that



The voltage was 1.82 fresh off the charger. I let them rest for a day and they are now 1.8. I measured the voltage of the energizer lithiums in the camera and they were 1.71. So I replaced them with the powergenix batteries and voila, all is well with the camera! :twothumbs


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## bluepilgrim (Nov 18, 2009)

I went to http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_e...ias=electronics&field-brandtextbin=PowerGenix

and saw the PGX1HRCH with 4 cells. It said it was 4-position, which seems to mean it will charge from 1 to 4 cells in different channels. 

I also saw ZR-PGX5HRAA with does not explitely say 1 to 4, but also says 4-position. Near as I can tell that means 4 channels -- but it charges fully in 5 hours withe partial charge in 3. There was a deal for that charger with 8 cells for $33.99, but they are out now (there was only 3 left yesterday, after I ordered that -- in the mail now) -- but the charger with 4 cells and buying extra cells separately is about the same price. 

That's what I was waiting for -- a better price and separate channels so I can use them in my 1AA lights. 

BTW -- there is an announcment of a new zinc-air rechargeable at http://www.physorg.com/news176034001.html which has been mentioned here, but I just saw http://www.physorg.com/news176646131.html announcing 

*Metal-Air Battery Could Store 11 Times More Energy than Lithium-Ion*
*(PhysOrg.com) -- A spinoff company from Arizona State University plans to build a new battery with an energy density 11 times greater than that of lithium-ion batteries for just one-third the cost. With a $5.13 million research grant from the US Department of Energy awarded last week, Fluidic Energy hopes to turn its ultra-dense energy storage technology into a reality.*
The new Metal-Air Ionic Liquid battery is being designed by Cody Friesen, a professor of materials science at Arizona State and founder of Fluidic Energy, along with other researchers. The key to the new battery is that it uses ionic liquids as its electrolyte, which could help it overcome some significant problems faced by previous metal-air batteries. In the past, metal-air batteries have usually used water-based electrolytes, but due to water evaporation, the batteries tended to fail prematurely. 
[...]

.... but they aren't sold by Amazon yet :thinking: :laughing:


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## davidefromitaly (Nov 19, 2009)

bluepilgrim said:


> I went to http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_e...ias=electronics&field-brandtextbin=PowerGenix
> 
> and saw the PGX1HRCH with 4 cells. It said it was 4-position, which seems to mean it will charge from 1 to 4 cells in different channels.
> 
> I also saw ZR-PGX5HRAA with does not explitely say 1 to 4, but also says 4-position. Near as I can tell that means 4 channels -- but it charges fully in 5 hours withe partial charge in 3.



with ni-zn, we must delete all the informations we have about ni-mh chargers

ni-zn charge like li-ion or SLA batts: CC/CV, no delta peak, no multiple channels problems, no risk of don't detect the end of charge...

the first part of the charge is fast (CC) and you can get about 80% of the charge, the second part (CV) is slower and you can decide if do it or not. ni-zn haven't memory effect and also a little voltage depression isn't a problem cause is just high enough


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## bluepilgrim (Nov 19, 2009)

I saw at http://www.powergenix.com/charging.php that fault conditions are temperature rise of greater than 15C (or cell temperature > 40C) or voltage less that 1.6, so I would thing that should be detected for each cell individually(?). 

I see now there that the 3-5 hour charger says for 2 or 4 cells. I could find much good information on it - may be the one I orderd won't do just 1 cell? What happens if I put a fuly charged cell into it along with a discharged one? If it's constant current I don't think it would matter -- I should be able to use a dummy cell even, for that phase? 

The information I'm seeing is not self consistent.


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## TapouT (Nov 19, 2009)

bluepilgrim said:


> I saw at http://www.powergenix.com/charging.php that fault conditions are temperature rise of greater than 15C (or cell temperature > 40C) or voltage less that 1.6, so I would thing that should be detected for each cell individually(?).
> 
> I see now there that the 3-5 hour charger says for 2 or 4 cells. I could find much good information on it - may be the one I orderd won't do just 1 cell? What happens if I put a fuly charged cell into it along with a discharged one? If it's constant current I don't think it would matter -- I should be able to use a dummy cell even, for that phase?
> 
> The information I'm seeing is not self consistent.



The biggest difference is that the 1 hour unit can charge 4 cells all of them independent so you can go down to one cell.. They both can do 2 AAA when Available but the 5 hour unit must charge in Pairs. So for the 5 hour unit you must insert the cells in the outer most or inner most charger slots to get the charger to function.. Also The 1 hour unit will charge the cells to 80% in the first hour and then trickle charges the NiZn Cells to full in about 3 more hours. The 5 hour unit also Chargers the NiZn Cells to 80% in the first hour but it trickle charges the NiZn cells up to 100% in the next 5 hours.. Thus its a bit slower and also has the limitation of only charging in Pairs.


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## bluepilgrim (Nov 20, 2009)

Darn! So I bought the wrong one!? The price difference was negligible (this one actually a little bit more). It said it does 80% in 2 huors and then the rest in 3 -- so is this the same charge your describe or not? How can I tell? 

I wish these people would give decent information on what they sell. They don't even have a part number on the descriptions on their web site. There's really no excuse for that. Powergenix is now on my 'wrong!' list. 

They may end up getting some strong communication from me! 

Addenda (I already edited this once and lost it -- not my night, I guess). 

Yes, I got the wrong one ZR-PGX54RAA instead of the PGX1HRCH. It seems that on the Powergenix site the '2 or 4' description is on the introductory summary page, but not on the detail page, which is where I looked when trying to find out what was what -- the detail page still says 'coming soon'. 

So I ordered the 1 to 4 charger (again with 4 batteries included). So I'll have both chargers and 12 cells. I hope the darned things work! 
It says somewhere it'll charge AAAs -- but there ae none of those yet -- not even a spec sheet. 

I'm not sure if I should be mad at Powergenix or the retailer, Depoteco for being so stingy with information, or both, but it shouldn't be this complicated to get information and so hard to know what I am buying.


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## TapouT (Nov 20, 2009)

I got that info from Dopoteco. scroll down where they answered peoples questions about the chargers. http://www.depoteco.com/powergenix-nizn-batteries/comment-page-1/ Suggest on that page that they add all the proper info on their product pages.

I was going to order from amazon though unless dopoteco has free shipping too. they are cheaper on the 1 hour kit cause its on sale but if no free ship they wouldn't be.

I wish the chargers would do 4 aaa's though. doing only 2 stinks when you need 3 for some lights.


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## bluepilgrim (Nov 20, 2009)

I got free shipping with the 3-5 + 4 extra cells from Amazon -- but I don't know why and that's out of stock now. Last night when I ordered the 1 hour 1to4 cell they had free shipping but the price was $3 more than depoteco -- so same thing. 

I got the 3-5 this morning mail, and am doing initial charge. what I want to know is what happens if you put one discharged cell and one partially dicharged or charged cell into it -- what are the overcharging conditions? Is it using just time and temperature? How does the charger work?? Is it constant current charging, or that temperature compensated voltage procedure they talk about on the page about charging (I guess the former)? What's the charge rate? I have to hook up a meter, I guess. 

I don't want to have to be a chemist and an electrical engineer to run a flashlight -- but I do want the information available -- and it was limited on the blog, without answering these questions. I don't even know how to measure the state of charge on these things. Is knowing voltage or current under load worth anything, or is like a bottle of wine that keeps pouring until it just goes empty? Maybe I'll HAVE to learn electro-chemisty... or wait for one of the CPF wizards to explain it. (Does Powergenix know how they work? Or are the engineers locked up in a lab and not allowed to talk to sales or advertising?  )

I'm too old to learn so much new stuff at once. :tired:


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## MarioJP (Nov 22, 2009)

I wonder will this finally replace NiMh? or more options for the consumers?

And also still curious of what will happen if you put these cells in the La Crosse charger?:thinking:


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## davidefromitaly (Nov 22, 2009)

BC900 will burn the ni-zn batts cause they don't have a -dV, while the C9000 can't charge them cause they raise fast over 1.47V


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## MarioJP (Nov 22, 2009)

So technically they can be charged in the la crosse charger, but you have to monitor and know when to pull the plug.

I honestly don't like the nizn charger way too basic compared to the lacrosse. And don't want to have anymore chargers either.

I am so tempted to try this test because of this charger can pratically charge any AA you throw at it


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## davidefromitaly (Nov 23, 2009)

MarioJP said:


> So technically they can be charged in the la crosse charger, but you have to monitor and know when to pull the plug.



nope... cause they are pulse chargers and during the pulse the voltage will go over 1.9V they need linear current



> I honestly don't like the nizn charger way too basic compared to the lacrosse. And don't want to have anymore chargers either.



ni-zn chargers are more like li-ion chargers... simple, you don't need to know nothing, only if are charged or not. lacrosse or maha analizer are born only due the problems of the ni-mh chemistry


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## MarioJP (Nov 23, 2009)

I also read that these cells only have 200 cycles? Is this true??


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## TapouT (Nov 25, 2009)

MarioJP said:


> I also read that these cells only have 200 cycles? Is this true??



that doesn't sound good. have to look into that.


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## bluepilgrim (Nov 25, 2009)

I think I read a few hundred to a thousand -- depending -- but even if it's only 200, at $2.50 a cell, that's not all that bad if the work well: a penny or two for one charge cycle.


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## davidefromitaly (Nov 25, 2009)

MarioJP said:


> I also read that these cells only have 200 cycles? Is this true??



also if it is true... after 200 cycles they still are waaaaaaay too much more powerfull than a ni-mh... :nana:


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## MarioJP (Nov 25, 2009)

lol. 200 cycles that's still low not to mention the capacity but hopefully the extra voltage can make up for the lower capacity.


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