# Found an old friend - SureFire C2-HA ....



## dimly lit (Mar 21, 2018)

New guy here from the wet side of WA. Picked up a greenish OD C2 Centurion back in the day. After searching around the web for upgrade ideas and being overwhelmed I figure I better just plug myself in here and start drinking from the fire hose. I found a TON of drop ins but I don't even know what I'm looking for yet. I ended up picking up a Solarforce L2T last night to beat on. Figured I should leave the C2 in the condition it's in. I've used it a little but hardly at all....

Thanks for all the info,
dl


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## archimedes (Mar 21, 2018)

*Re: Found an old friend*

Hello and welcome to CPF 

Your post above has been approved, in lightly edited form

Please note that "price fishing" (requests for appraisals) is discouraged in the discussion forums here.

Thanks


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## archimedes (Mar 21, 2018)

dimly lit said:


> .... Picked up a greenish OD C2 Centurion back in the day....



Oh, and the thread title was made just a bit more specific ... to help with searches and such


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## dimly lit (Mar 22, 2018)

Thanks archimedes, sorry for the fishing. Just curious if I can justify keeping it/upgrading it.


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## archimedes (Mar 22, 2018)

dimly lit said:


> Thanks archimedes, sorry for the fishing. Just curious if I can justify keeping it/upgrading it.



Understood, and you are welcome.

The C2 / C3 (in HA) is among my very favorite vintage torches ... and still highly upgradeable.

You may want to start browsing some of the Malkoff dropin threads here


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## ven (Mar 22, 2018)

You must keep it and get a nice p60 for it..........MUST!!! Awesome classic host, as with Archi, treat to a malkoff or go crazy with a triple or quad p60........crazy is fun:welcome:

219b 4000k h17f.....pic for inspiration


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## bykfixer (Mar 22, 2018)

If you like(d) the output before, Malkoff has a drop in that will put out a very similar beam yet sip the batteries for hours and hours. It is called M61WLL. (warm/low/low). 

An old favorite around here is the M61NL that still sips on batteries yet appears a lot brighter. About triple the output number of the original bulb with a neutral beam that looks a lot like fresh batteries were just installed. 
About $45 and a lifetime warranty. 

Welcome to the site.


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## archimedes (Mar 22, 2018)

Would be nice to see a photo, if you care to post one up ... that earlier vintage "greenish-bronze" HA finish is not seen much anymore

Although these have different tailcaps and bezels, they should be from a similar era ...


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## ven (Mar 22, 2018)

:wow:


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## archimedes (Mar 22, 2018)

ven said:


> :wow:


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## mamelo (Mar 22, 2018)

dimly lit, keep your original dropins. And add to that if you like from a lot of choices, you can run your C2 as originally intended with 2 primaries and the original P60/P61, use a 16650 protected LiOn rechargable battery with a Lumensfactory HO-4 dropin or _convert _it with a LED dropin (I first wanted to use the term _upgrade_ as this is an often used term - but not from an incan lover...). If LED, I also highly recommend Malkoff Devices single output mode dropins in neutral or warm tint, and keep the original tailcap as is ...


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## dimly lit (Mar 23, 2018)

Thanks all, I do like the idea of longer battery life. Sounds like I need to look into the Malkoff drop in offerings. Looks like they are all about a $52 shipped affair. Is there anything in the cheaper that is will compete?

I'm also looking into rechargeable 16340 batteries. Are they really that dangerous if you stick with quality cells/charger? They just seem like the right way to go.

I'll try to get creative with a pic if I can figure out the posting procedure.


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## bykfixer (Mar 23, 2018)

Lumens factory makes a real nice drop in. Also check out Mountain Electronics.

The Malkoff are made to take abuse. Very durable.

Now buying quality cells makes the difference. Names like biggfire, megafire and such (made those up) should be avoided. Seller matters too due to some fakes showing up. Over in the far east trade secrets are about as secret as politicians are honest. So good products get cloned very often. 
Again Mountain is a good pick. Many good sellers are out there. Just avoid the eBay sellers who have "genuine" for 1/2 price. 

I mentioned Malkoff because they aren't going for max output like 600+ lumens. Just rock solid performers that'll get you lots of light. Newer stuff is going for the crowd who require bright, brighter, brightest stuff. All good there, but heat becomes part of the package and can lead to the need for ways to cool down your light. Anything 500 or less should be fine. But when you cross the 750 line things get pretty warm.

(Trying not to throw a lot of technical stuff like 3 letter acronyms at you until you get more familiar with things like XPG, XML, 219B and stuff like that)


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## ven (Mar 23, 2018)

Sanyo 16650 are what i use in most of my surefire lights(c2/6p/z2 etc). These offer 2500mah and good enough for around 5a(more than enough for a malkoff). There are cheaper, but the C2 deserves the best...........Buy once........set for life! . 16340 cells(presume running 2 in the C2) really dont offer much run time, also be aware of the total voltage 4.2v+4.2v=8.4v. So the p60 will need to be able to support that voltage over the usual CR123 cells(3v+3v=6v). Could fry the driver otherwise. Still most 16340 cells are 550-700mah tops.......does not take long to get that voltage down!


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## dimly lit (Mar 23, 2018)

Here's a couple pics


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## ven (Mar 24, 2018)

Very nice! yes only a malkoff is good enough IMHO....................


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## dimly lit (Mar 24, 2018)

From the info I've been able to find, I think the M61 is the Malkoff that I need? Looking for a good amount of flood as well as brightness in the center (spot). Does that sound like the right direction?


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## scout24 (Mar 24, 2018)

Nice example. My favorite of the P60 platform incan Surefires...


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## mamelo (Mar 25, 2018)

dimly lit said:


> From the info I've been able to find, I think the M61 is the Malkoff that I need? Looking for a good amount of flood as well as brightness in the center (spot). Does that sound like the right direction?



The M61 variants (without "T") are neither throwers nor floody lights. Imho this reflector is the best reflector (in its size peer group) for general usage and the best compromise between spot and flood/spill) I have seen.


Here's my thinking about the M61: The M61 has around 325 measured out the front lumens, the M61N around 300. Your eyes will hardly see a difference in light output. 


However, the 6200 Kelvin of the M61 is quite cool, whereas the M61N has 4000K and a better CRI. Although I do not have the M61 my educated guess from other cool lights is that the colors will be washed out and contrast will suffer when compared to the M61N. 

Hence, if you want to actually recognize things in the dark my recommendation is to go with the M61N. If your primary use is to (temporarily) blind opponents, you can live with the M61. 

Maybe you can see the better color rendition and contrast when comparing the M61 (cool) and M361N (neutral) here:
http://flashlightguide.com/2013/11/review-malkoff-md2-flashlight/

but note, the M361N seems to be a little throwier here because it puts out more lumens (375). (And draws considerable more power from the battery - 1.4 amps instead of 0.65 amps.


This is about usefulness, not tint preferences or dislikings. Some folks just hate cool, neutral or warm tints.



If runtime is more of a concern than lumens output the "L" variants might be a good choice too for the C2 (compensating for the smaller capacity in the C2 (compared to a MD2) if using rechargable battery and the lack of a low setting). 
Btw, the term "L" for "Low" is a bit misleading, 160 Malkoff lumens (M61NL) is rather a good medium. 
Runtime does not make a difference if using primaries in either C2 or MD2 of course.


All depends on your usage and preferences. Btw. can you tell us more about this?



P.S. 2x primaries or a 16650 protected LiOn rechargable battery are the best options for your C2


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## mamelo (Mar 25, 2018)

dimly lit said:


> I'm also looking into rechargeable 16340 batteries. Are they really that dangerous if you stick with quality cells/charger? They just seem like the right way to go.



For a Malkoff M61 dropin or one of its variants I see no point in using low capacity 16340 rechargables, you are better off with one 16650 *). 
As far as harzard is concerned, they are equally potentially dangerous, that is because of their chemistry. However, if you follow some rules you should be good. 
Particularly, 
- use quality cells, no cheapos
- use a quality charger
- use "protected" cells (but they are thicker and longer due to their additional protection circuits)
- don't use any damaged cells 
- if using multiple cells in a serial setup (e.g. 2 x 16340), use cells from the same production batch. Use and load them always together - as a pair _for life_.
- do not leave them unattended when loading
- load them in an non-burning environment (I usually load them in my bathroom, non-flammable materials, somehow unattended while I am in another room but they won't set the house on fire when catching fire or exploding)
- load them in a vented environment (you do not want to breathe in the gases should they explode)
- don't overcharge them (should normally be prevented by the protection circuit as well as the charger, if using the right voltage and amperage)
- optionally, use a "Fireproof Explosion-proof Lipo Guard / Charge Protection Bag". I have one and sometimes use it.
- don't overdischarge them (should normally be prevented by the protection circuit)
- don't overload them regarding max. current draw. Should not be a problem with M61s (and should normally be prevented by the protection circuit anyway).


In short, quality cells and charger with M61s and a bit of common sense and pre-caution then the danger is very very small. 



*) 
E.g. Keeppower 16650 2500 mAh (nominal), with a "normal" charger charging the battery to 4.2 Volt, it has a (real) capacity of 1,900+ mAh:

https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Keeppower 16650 2500mAh (Black) 2015 UK.html

(although the navigation is a little confuding this is a great site btw., has also reviews of chargers)


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## kamagong (Apr 5, 2018)

Got a new friend myself recently.


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## xcel730 (Apr 5, 2018)

The 6P and C2 form factor is still one of my favorite. Adding the Malkoff M61W to the host and you'll have a virtually bombproof flashlight.


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## ampdude (Apr 5, 2018)

scout24 said:


> Nice example. My favorite of the P60 platform incan Surefires...



I prefer the C3, but in the two battery size, the C2 is my favorite as well. I always wished they had made a Z2-HA in the type III natural finish.

And the E3e!!!


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## fivemega (Apr 5, 2018)

ampdude said:


> And the E3e!!!



*2x18500 E bodies will take 3x18350 batteries.*


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## dimly lit (Apr 8, 2018)

Thanks all the info, you've got me thinking and searching more on CRI and Kelvin ranges. Just when I thought I had made up my mind. So if I understand, the M61N has a little less lumens but the 4000K and 80CRI make colors more true?

My needs for this light are pretty general. I'll probably use it most in the woods and around the house. However I will also carry it from time to time around town. I've got a TRL-1s for HD use. The extended run time is tempting but I think I like the wow factor of extra Lumins. However the run time on the M61L has me rethinking my needs.

I recently received my first Solarforce L2T. I got it with a LC-XPL 3 mode. Not sure how many lumens it is putting out with two CR123 batts but it is definitely brighter than my C2 with the P61 drop in. For what the L2T is, I'm impressed. Then again, with my limited experience I'm pretty easily impressed at this point.


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## mamelo (Apr 8, 2018)

dimly lit said:


> My needs for this light are pretty general. I'll probably use it most in the woods and around the house. However I will also carry it from time to time around town.



For general usage, woods and in and around the house I really recommend the M61N, and yes, color rendering is quite good.

To give you some hint about lumens output: Actually, most of the time in and around the house, I use the M61N on low mode (only available in Malkoff MD2 with hi-lo ring) for close ranges e.g. walking, and on high for medium ranges. But for medium ranges, my M61WL on high is almost equally good. What I want to say is that you might be happy for general purpose in the C2, as it is single mode, with the M61NL as well, as the run-time is longer.

I really like the long taper of output of M61xxx dropins once the battery is under 3.4V. They don't leave you in the dark.

At some point in time it is on _you _to make a decision (and what fits for me does not necessarily fit for you). If you take the M61N you can later buy a MD2 host with hi-lo ring or use your Solarforce host for 18650 support and thus longer run-times. Therefore, if you'd ask me now for just ONE recommendation for you, from what I read from you, it would be the M61N. 

Cheers,
mamelo

EDIT: Of course you can put a M61NL also in another host, what I mean is: should you want more run-time for a M61N then you have this option, should you want more lumens for M61NL then you don't.


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## ampdude (Apr 13, 2018)

fivemega said:


> *2x18500 E bodies will take 3x18350 batteries.*



Well, what I'm most interested in is a Surefire 9 volt E-series lamp assembly. Those would have been really nice to have. The Lumens Factory version darkens with use, I really wish there was one out there that uses the xenon-halogen cycle like the OEM E-series Surefire lamp assemblies. Good to see you are still making the custom bodies.


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## fivemega (Apr 14, 2018)

ampdude said:


> Well, what I'm most interested in is a Surefire 9 volt E-series lamp assembly. Those would have been really nice to have. The Lumens Factory version darkens with use, I really wish there was one out there that uses the xenon-halogen cycle like the OEM E-series Surefire lamp assemblies. Good to see you are still making the custom bodies.


*Halogen bulbs are taller than Xenon bulbs so won't focus well in small E heads. Some custom 1000L E system was offered here with built in recessed bi-pin system.
Now similar bodies are available with Halogen FM1794 (2 IMR18350 or 2 protected 18500) and 32mm head here. 
Same Halogen FM1794 bulb also can be used in C2 or C3 with D26 socket/reflector system.*


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## ampdude (Apr 14, 2018)

But I wasn't referring to the difference between xenon or halogen bulbs. I was referring to the difference of SF xenon-halogen bulbs that don't darken, vs. current gen bulbs by lumens factory that are only filled with xenon that seem to have a shorter life and darken noticeably after a few uses. The only justification I've received over the years from Mark at lumens factory is that xenon is more expensive, so I should buy lumens factory bulbs, just because xenon is more expensive than halogen. This doesn't make any logical sense.


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## fivemega (Apr 14, 2018)

ampdude said:


> I was referring to the difference of SF xenon-halogen bulbs that don't darken, vs. current gen bulbs by lumens factory that are only filled with xenon that seem to have a shorter life and darken noticeably after a few uses.


*Short answer is that Halogen prevents tungsten deposit and darkening glass.
Making halogen bulb needs different process and tooling than Xenon. Some companies just don't do halogen.
Another factor is designed voltage and forwarded voltage of bulb. The harder you drive the bulb, shorter will be bulb life and quicker darkening for Xenon bulbs.
Many CPF folks use rechargeable batteries which may underdrive the SF Xenon-Halogen bulb or just drive it with little overdrive while Lumens factory bulbs are designed for rechargeable batteries with more overdrive for whiter and brighter output. 
Some LF bulbs are designed for 15 or 20 hours life and some SF bulbs are designed for military use and 40 hours life.*


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