# Sapphire vs. Ultra clear lens



## Flick75 (Feb 18, 2010)

A similar topic was made over 6 years ago. I was wondering what people's thoughts on it were today and if it even mattered these days as far as toughness is concerned. I know scratch resistance is optimal with sapphire, but will it break easier from a more distant fall than say for instance a mineral crystal from the same distance fall? 

I'm looking for general thoughts as well on whether there is any advantage with having an LED light, one with ultra clear glass and one with sapphire (corundum). Is one always better than the other or does it depend on the situation? Is the light loss really noticeable between the two for the same amount of output?

Any opinion is much appreciated.


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## joshconsulting (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: Sappire vs. Ultra clear lens*

6-10% better transmission with UCL, would require a similar output light next to it to compare (but still worth it IMO). But it scratches and shatters more easily then sapphire; it may not survive a several foot drop onto contact if it's firmly locked in the bezel. Then again, I've heard stories of UCLs being pretty tough.


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## Locoboy5150 (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: Sappire vs. Ultra clear lens*

If you break a glass UCL I think that it's cheaper to replace than a broken sapphire lens.


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## Brian321 (Feb 18, 2010)

*Are UCL lenses really worth it?*

Hello i bought my first surefire and ordered a UCL for it, But i cant seam to get the bezel off and im not really sure i want to. The more i think about it the more i wonder, Surefire lights are durable, but if i go and change the lens and loosens things that are really tight, Wont it lose its durabilty(a little bit)? Is it really worth putting a UCL lens in it? Is it still gonna be as durable? Thanks. 

BTW: The reason i ordered the lens is because i have a M61 on th way.


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## bigchelis (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: Are UCL lenses really worth it?*

You will absolutely gain around 10% more Out the front Lumens, but your eyes will not notice it...


Just put the bezel in a ziplock bag and boil it for about 5 minutes, then with skinny nose pliers insert them in the bezel ring and twist counterclockwise...... Still too can't do it? boil it agian and repeat untill you succeed.

Good luck and hope you enjoy the 300 lumens provided by the M61:thumbsup:


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## Magic Matt (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: Are UCL lenses really worth it?*

Opening up any manufacturer sealed unit will weaken it, unless you know how to re-seal it in the same way. I think those lights are threadlocked (perhaps somebody more informed than I can confirm), which basically means a sort of adhesive us used to improve durability, prevent opening, and improve the seal. You can, of course, break the threadlock, clean the threads, and put new threadlock adhesive in when you're done modifying the light. I've used LocTite threadlock adhesive on some things (not flashlights) that never had it before, and I'm very pleased with the result.

If you bought the lens because you think it will make a noticable difference to the beam brightness, I wouldn't bother. Realistically you wont see a noticable difference even between 98% and 88% transmissive optics unless you're doing A/B comparisons, or depending upon them for digital imaging etc.

If you love the idea of modifying your flashlight because you simply must have the best quality and performance, then you shouldn't even be asking the question... do it! 

Personally I'd fit it... but then, I really like cool stuff, even if it's practicality or usefulness in the 'real world' is questionable... probably why I spent hours tuning my PC to get an extra 7% performance from the CPU. If I spend money on something, I like to get every % performance I can from it.


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## Magic Matt (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: Are UCL lenses really worth it?*

LOL - bigchelis nipped in there while I was still typing.


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## Owen (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: Are UCL lenses really worth it?*

In my experience, you won't see much, if any, difference replacing the Pyrex SF uses, and probably not in any of the models now using Borofloat lenses, which is pretty much the same thing, but from another manufacturer. 
UCLs, to my way of thinking, are best used for replacing easily scratched polycarbonate lenses, or, with LDF, to have the option of switching beam types.


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## Jarski (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: Are UCL lenses really worth it?*

IMO UCL isn't worth the extra price. My mag Rop with dx lens throws out same amount of light than without whole lens.

But I don't know is the ucl more durable, but the dx lens is pretty though also.


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## Illum (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: Are UCL lenses really worth it?*

compared to borosilicate windows, the slight increase in transparancy doesn't balance well with its inherent limitation on thermal flexibility. Back in the mag85 days my Borofloat window can be heated by the lamp to the point where I can't touch its surface, yet I have operated it as such in the rain with more than one occiasion without issues.

Now, with the UCL, it'll crack when


Setting something on fire using your USL
Operating the light face down
Operation of the light in a high temperature differental [between sides of the glass] for prolonged periods of time


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## AILL (Feb 18, 2010)

*UCL-Lens coating issues*

Well it is my fourth UCL-Lens with AR coating and it is the fourth that has the same issues.

- my 1st RA Clicky
- my second RA Clicky
- the replacement from Henry for the light No.2
- an UCL from lighthound for a Novatac

all of them showed immediately "bubbles" in the coating after cleaning the lens with soft paper (like toilet paper). You actually cannot feel these "bubbles" but you see them clearly.

I am VERY dissapointed with these lenses. Honestly I don't think they are worth 1 cent. 

Does anybody know where I can buy an original polycarbonate replacement for my Novatac?

Anybody had similar issues?

Andreas


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## kramer5150 (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: Sappire vs. Ultra clear lens*

I have never seen anything conclusive in regards to durability and impact resistance between the non-plastic lense materials.


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## John_Galt (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: UCL-Lens coating issues*

4 of the same incidents from you makes me think it's something in your environment (not saying it's on purpose) that could be causing this. Ra (and others) use tons of UCL lenses, and have very few cases such as this. In fact, I can recall many more reports of lenses breaking, than this type of occurrence.

As far as a lexan lense for your novatac, maybe you could call them?


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## Buck91 (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: UCL-Lens coating issues*

Been using UCL on my mags for years without any problems. When they do require cleaning I use the softest clothe I can find moistened with water or a little windex and very light pressure. Never a problem.

Never a problem with other UCL lenses either, including Fenix.


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## DuncanHynes (Feb 18, 2010)

*Re: UCL-Lens coating issues*

Toilet paper is actually abrasive, has minute/tiny fibers not meant for glass cleaning--Try a micro fiber towel for car detailing clear coats or eye glasses. And I 2nd the notion that there may be other factors if you've had 4 lenses from high quality lights that are developing the same symptom.


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## Popsiclestix (Feb 19, 2010)

*Re: UCL-Lens coating issues*



AILL said:


> Well it is my fourth UCL-Lens with AR coating and it is the fourth that has the same issues.
> 
> - my 1st RA Clicky
> - my second RA Clicky
> ...



I'm also wondering if it's not just oil on your lens. When I hold my UCL/Borofloat lens under a light at the right angle, I can see sort of colorful bubbles like you see in soapy water. The oil is notoriously hard to get off, even with soap/detergent.


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## qwertyydude (Feb 19, 2010)

*Re: UCL-Lens coating issues*

I posted a very effective method for cleaning even multi-coated camera lenses before. It uses lamp black. Though you can purchase lamp black and use it directly, if you want to try this method out simply use a zippo lighter or a candle. Run the flame under the bottom of a piece of glass and make a soot stain on the glass. This is lamp black. It is highly oil absorbent. Fold some paper towel or cloth into a tight applicator and wipe up the lamp black. Use this dry to wipe directly on the lens or glass. You'll see all the oil stains will come off, even on my super-multicoated polarizer camera filters which are near impossible to clean come clean very easily with this method.


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## AILL (Feb 19, 2010)

*Re: UCL-Lens coating issues*

Hmh. First of all TX for the replies.
I wonder why it should not be possible to clean the lens from fingerprints etc with soft paper, with my T-shirt or with anything else that seems appropriate for cleaning a mirror for example.
Aren't we talking here about "ultra rugged" tools? Especially RA seems to advertise the nearly undestroyable buildt of their torches.
And then, I need some VERY SPECIAL and INCREDIBLE SOFT whiper and a SUPER SPECIAL cleaning-lotion?
Here's something wrong, men.

Also I cannot identify any special issue regarding my environment.

Andreas


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## DM51 (Feb 19, 2010)

*Re: Are UCL lenses really worth it?*

Merging similar threads...


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## leukos (Feb 19, 2010)

*Re: Sappire vs. Ultra clear lens*

I honestly believe that sapphire windows are a waste of money in flashlights. A good application for sapphire is your watch. 
Just plain mineral glass for your flashlight will survive most falls and prevent most scratches. UCL is a little more brittle than Pyrex, Borofloat, etc, but if every lumen counts to you, then that is probably the way you want to go. I prefer durability, so I prefer Pyrex, borofloat, etc over anything else. Sapphire is also somewhat brittle in comparison with mineral glass.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 19, 2010)

*Re: Sappire vs. Ultra clear lens*



leukos said:


> I honestly believe that sapphire windows are a waste of money in flashlights.


You think THAT's a waste: Contax made the T2 and T3's shutter release out of synthetic sapphire.


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## qwertyydude (Feb 20, 2010)

*Re: Sappire vs. Ultra clear lens*

Sapphire is much stronger than glass, I know because I have synthetic white sapphire jewelry and I took a stone that had a chip in it because I kept using it to scratch glass and put it in a pair of vise grips and I can tell you it is a LOT stronger than glass to break.


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## leukos (Feb 20, 2010)

Most serious dive watches (over 200M) still use mineral glass, it is more shatter resistant.


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## AILL (Mar 5, 2010)

*Re: UCL-Lens coating issues*



John_Galt said:


> [...]
> 
> As far as a lexan lense for your novatac, maybe you could call them?



Well, I emailed to NT on FEb. 19th. that I need two new Polycarbonate-lenses.

I got an answer on FEb. 24th, "Jesse Sullivan" <[email protected]>: He told me to contact lighthound.

What I did.

Lighthound answered on Feb. 26th, that they have only UCL-lenses.

I forwarded this message to Mr. Sullivan the same day, and declared precisely that I need two polycarbonate-lenses and that I will pay for them.

No response till today.

What kind of terrific customer service is this?



They did better in the past...

Andreas


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## AILL (Mar 22, 2010)

*Re: UCL-Lens coating issues*

Well not to forget to tell you all this: Seems it needed a couple of weeks, but indeed I got an offer from Jesse. Now I will receive 2 new lenses (and two leef springs as well).

NT's customer service ain't the fastest, but still working.



Andreas





AILL said:


> Well, I emailed to NT on FEb. 19th. that I need two new Polycarbonate-lenses.
> 
> I got an answer on FEb. 24th, "Jesse Sullivan" <[email protected]>: He told me to contact lighthound.
> 
> ...


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## anonymoususer (Mar 22, 2010)

Brian321 said:


> Hello i bought my first surefire and ordered a UCL for it, But *i cant seam to get the bezel off and im not really sure i want to. The more i think about it the more i wonder, Surefire lights are durable, but if i go and change the lens and loosens things that are really tight, Wont it lose its durabilty(a little bit)?* Is it really worth putting a UCL lens in it? Is it still gonna be as durable? Thanks.
> 
> BTW: The reason i ordered the lens is because i have a M61 on th way.





Magic Matt said:


> *Opening up any manufacturer sealed unit will weaken it, unless you know how to re-seal it in the same way.* I think those lights are threadlocked (perhaps somebody more informed than I can confirm), which basically means a sort of adhesive us used to improve durability, prevent opening, and improve the seal. You can, of course, break the threadlock, clean the threads, and put new threadlock adhesive in when you're done modifying the light. I've used LocTite threadlock adhesive on some things (not flashlights) that never had it before, and I'm very pleased with the result.
> 
> If you bought the lens because you think it will make a noticable difference to the beam brightness, I wouldn't bother. Realistically you wont see a noticable difference even between 98% and 88% transmissive optics unless you're doing A/B comparisons, or depending upon them for digital imaging etc.
> 
> ...


If you have opened a Surefire retaining bezel, you would know that it is only held in place by a couple very small dabs of thread locker. Removing is and replacing it with a couple very small dabs of thread locker will not compromise its durability.

Use the suggestion above to remove the retaining ring.


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## Hitthespot (Mar 23, 2010)

leukos said:


> Sapphire is also somewhat brittle in comparison with mineral glass.


 
Agreed. Mineral Glass is softer and scratches much easier than Sapphire. It also makes it much less prone to shattering. However, I would think in some instances the user may prefer sapphire.




leukos said:


> Most serious dive watches (over 200M) still use mineral glass, it is more shatter resistant.


 
This surprises me, are you sure? I always believed that high end dive watches used Sapphire. ( My Rolex Submariner rated 1000 ft uses sapphire. ) 

Bill


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