# LED Flashlight for survival kit



## James Bond (Sep 8, 2010)

After escaping an earthquake I'm looking at putting together a survival kit.

What I'm looking for is something relatively small, dirt/dust/shock proof, submergible and with great battery life.

I appreciate your suggestions.


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## BarryG (Sep 8, 2010)

The first one that comes to mind is the Fenix E01


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## Mathiashogevold (Sep 8, 2010)

1+ for the Fenix E01, but i would like to have something that are a little bit brighter too, what about some of the HDS systems light?


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## Nocam (Sep 8, 2010)

Either an HDS Clicky or a Surefire 6P or C2 with a Malkoff of your flavor installed.


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## SuperTrouper (Sep 8, 2010)

A Surefire E1L or E2L would lend itself well to your needs.

Both compact (obviously the 1 cell E1L is more compact) and they both have extended runtimes suitable for disasters and extended times without power.

They both have the usual Surefire rock solid reliable construction.


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## utlgoa (Sep 8, 2010)

Led Lenser P7. It's not regulated so you will get 130 hrs of useful light from the 3 triple A batteries, and it should be tough enough. Here is a video of the light being run over by a 405 ton truck.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsS0A5PYrh0


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## alpg88 (Sep 8, 2010)

James Bond said:


> After escaping an earthquake I'm looking at putting together a survival kit.
> 
> What I'm looking for is something relatively small, *dirt/dust/shock proof, submergible and with great battery life.*
> 
> I appreciate your suggestions.


 
than you need to look into pelican or UK lights, none of the lights mentioned above are really submersible.
also you want to use lithium primaries, any size,

now, we never know when emergency hits, emergency pack may sit for years before being used, thus alkaline is out of the question, so are rechargeable. 
you might also want to add few glow sticks to the kit, but only cyalume brand, i've used many different brands , cyalume is the best, even 4 years expired still glow almost as bright as fresh, thou runtime is cut. never fall for walmart 2\$1 sticks, they are garbage.


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## Mr Bigglow (Sep 8, 2010)

For a survival kit these days, a primary consideration has to be lithium batteries, both for the sake of shelf life and also for range of temperature, meaning frozen, use (more of a consideration in Canada than in Arizona). I put a Petzl e+lite headlamp in each of my several kits plus my parkas. In the versions now being sold, these include a little survival whistle in the headband slide, but more importantly the units provide a handsfree alternative to the two or three SF / Quark flashlights I EDC. The Petzl packs into a nice little rounded plastic capsule which also has room for some replacement batteries if you do it carefully and its weight and size count for nothing, especially in terms of benefit.


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## Lee1959 (Sep 8, 2010)

I would go a bit larger and use a red Inova X5. One cell lithium, runs on cells other lights wont, throws plenty of light to navigate with and helps preserve some of your night vision. It is one of the lights in every emergency kit. 

Second light in my kit is a red/white combo LED headlamp. If I could only have one light, it probably would be a headlamp so I could use my hands in an emergency.


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## fnj (Sep 8, 2010)

This is an easy one. Either an HDS Clicky or a Quark (NOT Quark Mini). Either one will give you WEEKS of battery life at ultra low, as well medium and high on demand when you need it. Both are submergible beyond 1 meter. The HDS is phenomenally reliable.


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## mcnair55 (Sep 8, 2010)

I would suggest 2 lights for your kit,the Fenix EO1 as a back up packed away with a lithium cell in it and what ever else you choose from what other members suggest.


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## Kestrel (Sep 8, 2010)

Another vote for *two lights*, a small 1xAAA like the E01 (which I don't have, but I like my comparable ARC-AAA's), and a larger high-output light for emergency usage - something rather more expensive like a SureFire 6P w/ Malkoff M61WLL (not sure if these are available yet but the previous generation M60LL's were just about perfect for this as well).

At any rate, lithium cells for sure, Energizer lithium AAA's for the small light, US-mfg. CR123 lithiums or Energizer lithium AA's for the larger one.


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## smokelaw1 (Sep 8, 2010)

Ra TWISTY. The clicky is a great, great light. BUT...in an emergency, if you don't live with this light every day...it's easier to twist for low, twist more for medium, twist more for high than it is to remember a UI that you put in a box two years ago. 
That, plus an ARC-AAA with a lithium cell.


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## tandem (Sep 8, 2010)

Apologies in advance for the mini-novel here.

First, I'm so pleased to learn that your area was spared a worst-case incident.

Like the OP I am also concerned about earthquakes in planning for emergencies. I'm involved in emergency preparedness and disaster relief here in a major west coast city. I shall admit up front I have a huge bias to AA format cells.

My city (Vancouver, Canada) and region is at risk of major seismic events (7+ magnitude earthquakes) so we have to contend with the possibility that our neatly planned emergency kits are not accessible to us. The city has prepositioned around the city relief supplies that are regularly maintained and kept in locked steel containers around the city; individuals should attempt to do the same - have some supplies at friends or in the car and at the workplace, and some supplies in different locations in your dwelling in case the emergency prohibits access to part of the structure.

While most wood frame construction homes and small apartment buildings here should survive well enough, many schools and older (40 - 100+ years old) buildings have not yet been replaced or seismically upgraded. Buildling codes in Canada did not gain seismic safety provisions until the 1970's. Some relatively modernish looking buildings dating from the 1960's are in fact at high risk due to construction type and the ground they sit upon. We have an unsettlingly large inventory of 50 - 100+ year old buildings, including many where large numbers of people congregate in on a regular basis - schools and churches. Most 100 year old structures here were built using the popular materials of their day -- unreinforced masonry construction -- which is pretty much the worst structure to be in during an earthquake. Gable end and interior wall collapses of the sort seen in Christchurch would be expected in at least some of these buildings in any quake in the high 6+ magnitude, and in many of these buildings as the magnitude increases, depending on epicentre depth and location of course.

If more than a handful of full or partial building collapses occur while they are occupied, first responders are likely to be completely overwhelmed. The emergency plan for the city in the event of a massive earthquake doesn't even anticipate that fire and rescue services will respond to calls until an initial city wide assessment determines if critical situations are very localized or widespread. How fortunate that affected areas in New Zealand were not visited by a worst case scenario.

On to lights and emergency kits. Readers digest version:


AA (and perhaps AAA) cell format is probably the most commonly found in any household; it makes sense to have at least some of your lights in this format.
You'll need more lights than you think in your kit. Pack a few for neighbours or family that may not be so prepared. Assuming you like them, and maybe even if you dont!
Check your kit a couple times a year, when replacing smoke detector batteries at daylight savings time change could be used as a cue.
You'll need lights (and other supplies) elsewhere in case your kit can't be accessed.
Replace water supplies on a predetermined schedule. Replace batteries as needed. Don't just park it in a corner and forget about it.
Whatever you put in your kit, consider also getting an every day carry light, something small enough you'll always have on your person or at arms reach. You never know when and where an emergency will strike.

Since you are asking for opinions, the clearest one I can give is that I would not depend on any emergency light if it can't be powered by a readily available AA (or AAA format for small key chain or headlamps) cell.

When you get right down to it, almost any light you might buy is going to do the job. Some better, some worse. The choices available today are miles better than 10 or 20 years ago! After all, it wasn't so many years ago that the only options readily available were incandescent driven lights and fairly small capacity cells. (_Just happened to see part of the movie "Magnum Force" last night -- watch the bad ops hunting down with incandescent lights Clint Eastwood's Harry Callaghan character inside a dark derelict ship -- Dirty Harry would be dead if those cops had been equipped with even a simple 5$ multi-5mm LED floody light!_)

There is lots of value in having a least some 1.5v AA and AAA lithium (like the Energizer L91) cells in your emergency kit(s!) for longevity and cold weather operation if that is an issue in your locale. Their storage advantage alone is worth the price and if you live in a less temperate climate, you really need to have some of these available at all times. In addition to Lithiums, some on-sale cheap Duracell alkalines, I also rotate 20 Eneloop rechargables into the kit every 3 months and recheck all kit contents twice a year.

Here freezing temperatures are less of a worry but cold weather operation is still something to consider for a part of the year. What many of us worry more about is availability and accessibility of emergency supplies in the event of a large disaster.

Availability / accessibility is made easier if your emergency light and other devices (radio receivers, two-way radio transceivers, and so on) can also be powered by commonly available cells and for that reason most of my gear is driven by AA cells with smaller lights and headlamps driven by AAA format.

If a lengthy emergency were to hit our locale, based on my emergency caches and regular "stock" I figure I've got way more than an entire year's worth of useful night time runtime with usable lights, the emphasis being on lights as a plural. If you have family and neighbours or friends who have no light, you are going to want to help them help themselves by providing lights otherwise you'll be in more demand than you care to be. Stocking for these folks some cheap older tech LED flashlights is a viable approach that won't break the bank. 

Again this underscores the value of the ubiquitous AA and AAA formats - your friends and neighbours are likely to have some of these on hand even if they do not have a usable flashlight(s). TV remote controls suddenly become a cache location for usable power for a light.

Cell format is just as important as cell chemistry when planning for extended emergency use and in this regard the AA, and to a lesser extent the AAA, format is a clear winner. They are everywhere. They are cheap. And they can deliver a ton of light in the right device, or a long run time in the right device, and a decent amount of output with decent runtime in almost any simple low tech LED device.

Thus if you buy into the AA cell as being the primary power source for most or all of your emergency lights (and other devices such as emergency radio receivers, radio transmitters - I've got power packs that accept AA primaries and rechargables for my communications equipment - and so on) then you can move on to light selection.

Rather than spending a lot of money on fewer lights in my view it makes more sense to have more lights, and in more locations than just the emergency kit and go-bag. In a protracted emergency you are going to want to get lights into the hands of more people than just yourself. 

Most of the lights in the kit and around home, auto and office are older 5mm LEDs. Most of them I'd be happy to loan out or give away. Strictly speaking they all could serve as proper light in an emergency. I've also put AAA format lights on the keychains my wife and kids carry when not at home. 

That's not to say there isn't value in having some very well made and extremely rugged light(s) on hand in the kit(s), and ideally at least one within arms reach at all times. 

Of the better lights I have one fully meets your requirements for a submersible capable light - the Pelican 2410 StealthLite. It is submersible up to 150M according to Pelican. It takes 4 AA cells. It is too big to carry around all the time but at the time I purchased the 2410 it was ideal for our emergency kit as a primary tool. Was around 80 - 90$ CAD when I bought it, believe it can be had for less today. No doubt Pelican has some updates available but haven't checked. 

I'd bought this this light with urban self-rescue in mind -- it has a very tight beam that should penetrate a dusty situation well. Buildings generate a lot of dust when the collapse, especially brick buildings.

Would I buy it again today? Maybe not - more modern lights will produce more output for longer runtimes in a smaller yet very durable package. That said I'm glad I have one light in the kit that I could dive into a lake with, but that isn't a situation I'm likely to be faced with during an urban emergency here. The Pelican light does travel with us on holiday though. What would I buy today for the emergency kit "main light" instead of the Pelican? I'm leaning towards the Fenix LD40 (thread), a new 4xAA model they are just about to start shipping. 

An every day light - Recently I was looking for a smaller and more powerful light than my Mini Maglite 2xAA LED which had been living in my disaster assistance responders vest. We don't just plan for "the big one" - there are plenty of little disasters on a regular basis in a big city. I attend a lot of fire scenes and more often than not these incidents occur in the middle of the night. The Maglite served well but I knew I could get more output from a single AA light these days so I considered a bunch of lights from the usual names talked about here. 

Naturally I wanted something that catered to my AA format bias, that was small and able to be in a pocket - jeans, shorts, or a suit - all the time, not just in my emergency response vest. I would not consider carrying a 2xAA (lengthwise) light *all the time* - just too bulky. That left me looking for a 1xAA durable light that could run well on virtually any cell I had available to me. I also wanted to purchase an "off the shelf" product rather than a custom or modified light in the event that I elected to buy more for family and friends or recommend to others. I'm a fan of mass production (when done right) and ubiquity I guess, when it comes to emergency planning.

What I ended up buying for this purpose is a Fenix LD10 R4. What sold me on this particular light was the amount of usable light I could get out of a single AA cell from all types of chemistries, and that it was small enough, but not too tiny, that it could live in my pocket forever. I don't even always carry my key chain (too bulky!) but a light with a good clip I can live with. 

I was briefly tempted by the "moon modes" offered by the Quark and some others, but only briefly. True, 1 or 2 lumen output would be nice for reading in bed without waking my wife, but this light isn't for that purpose... I've got plenty of others for that sort of thing.

No, in an emergency you need decent quality and quantity of light. Stuff isn't likely to be orderly. Things move around in a quake. You won't be wandering the scene in "moon mode" if there's been a major quake.

In a protracted emergency (or just one of my run of the mill all-nighters) if I need more than 3 or 4 hours of 40-50 lumen output I toss in another cell. I can't really imagine not having a spare cell (or 8!) near me, but if I did happen to venture out on a call with only one installed cell I still have up to 17 or 20 hours of highly usable light out of that single AA cell or more depending on the cell type.

The LD10 R4 will deliver ~ 17 hours of 10ish lumen output on low running an alkaline; 2 1/2 hours on 40-50ish lumen output on medium on the same cell. More runtime out of a quality rechargable like the Sanyo Eneloop or Powerex Imedion (more than 4 hours on medium). Even more output and runtime out of a lithium cell like the Energizer L91. All out of one AA cell. See this review for runtime charts demonstrating run times to 50% of initial output.

Small size and a reversible pocket clip allowing the light to slide on to the brim of a ball cap or hard hat and thus becoming an instant headlamp are other nice features of the LD10 which are wholly unique to this light of course. I didn't think I'd use the fast strobe feature but in fact it has proven to be very useful - on the bike for leisure time, and in the field I've used it more than once to signal someone else on my team from a distance.

I'm sure there are other off the shelf lights that will do more or less the same thing but at the time I bought the light (and as of this writing) it seemed to me that the LD10 R4 had the best mix of size, capability, output, and output regulation so I bought it, no regrets, and plan on buying several more.

(PS: The LD10 (and LD40) like most lights discussed around here meets the IP standard level 8 - will be usable even if submersed in more than 1M of water. Would it survive as the Pelican supposedly can at 150M? No, it wasn't designed to do that.)


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## SuperTrouper (Sep 8, 2010)

Great post Tandem. Thanks for your perspective on this.


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## Kestrel (Sep 8, 2010)

+1, good post. :thumbsup:


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## Flying Turtle (Sep 8, 2010)

Great info tandem. Another little point supporting a one AA light is that it is very easy to make a AAA work in it too.

Geoff


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## ECL (Sep 8, 2010)

I would assume that gaz pipe can rupture and other king of flammable liquid spill during a major earth quake.

So, if hearth quake is a concern, wouldn't an explosion proof light be a good idea?


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## scottaw (Sep 8, 2010)

Personally, I have a 1aa headlamp in my bob. I keep a lithium in it, and in an emergency, i can scavenge for aa's. 

But if you live in an earthquake or other distater area, I feel you really need to rely on what's in your pockets. So currently that's a novatac that always has a fully charged battery. And I'll probably switch to a ra 240 when they're available n


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## tandem (Sep 8, 2010)

ECL said:


> I would assume that gaz pipe can rupture and other king of flammable liquid spill during a major earth quake. So, if earth quake is a concern, wouldn't an explosion proof light be a good idea?



That's a very good point to make. I bought the Pelican 2410 knowing that it met a limited class of use in locations that are not normally hazardous, but I didn't buy it solely for that reason. Still, knowing this is a comfort.

I personally would have no concerns about turning on a Fenix light or even 5$ cheapies LED lights -- and leaving them on -- until the evacuation from the building is complete. Unless you are unlucky enough to be trapped in a small room with the gas rupture at the outset of the event, concentrations are not likely to get high enough fast enough elsewhere in the structure to cause an explosion by switching on a LED light elsewhere in the building. Your objective has to be to evacuate safely and quickly and then take stock of the situation.

In the initial aftermath of a quake my first concern would be if a fire was immediately, or if a brewing problem exists from a gas and/or water and/or sewer line rupture. 

My own personal plan: depending on the nature and scope of damage, safely evacuate everyone and then re-enter the structure if safe and inspect. 

If re-entry can't safely be done, or if there is any doubt as to the state of the structure or the natural gas service, I'll shut the service off without hesitation using the 6 inch crescent wrench I've prepositioned in a sealed zip-closing plastic bag next to the service meter outside. If you have gas service make sure you've got a wrench located beside the meter, all the time, and are familiar with the location of the meter, with the location and nature of the valve (parallel with the gas line = on, right angles to the gas line = off), and make sure it hasn't rusted in place. Do these things now, not later.


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## Chicago X (Sep 8, 2010)

+1 on an AA-powered headlamp, in addition to some other AA-powered handhelds. When you are trying to take care of all of the post-disaster needs, handsfree is a big plus.

As others have mentioned, having some 10-year shelf life lithium primaries in your kit is a good idea. :thumbsup:


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## etc (Sep 8, 2010)

I standardize on the AA cell, since I have a lot of other very useful devices that run on AA in a TSHTF situation. 
For example: GPS, radio. Valuable devices for sure.

My best lites however run on CR123 cells and also on 18650 cells. What to do? 

A lite like Surefire 9P, perhaps bored to 18mm, with a module like Malkoff M60LL or M61LL will run on either cell. Surefire 9P takes 3x123 cells. It also happens that 3x123 cells are the same length as 2xAA cells. So you can use either one. A low powered module like M61LL will run very happy on either AA or 123 cells. However a high-powered module will not power on with AA cells. 

Nice piece, but you don't specify a price range. It's kind of expensive (for the non-commited), over 100 FRNs. If you don't want to worry about assembling a lite or exotic 123 cells, keep it simple.

If you are not married to the CR123A cell, and want to go all AA, consider the new MiniMagLite 2xAA, in low mode, it should be able to run for days. Plus you can unscrew the head, hang it upside down over your dinner table and it's a very nice all encompassing flood over your dinner. It's also much cheaper. I got one for 10 FRNs last year.

I suggest against big MagLites, as they get tiresome dragging around. Their only advantage is, they can "throw" long ways, say 100m, if you need to see something, but do you really need that? Get something you can keep in your pocket.

If you don't care about AA or D cells, maybe consider a nice 2xC lite? You get better runtime but can still pocket it.


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## Kestrel (Sep 8, 2010)

etc said:


> A lite like Surefire 9P [...]
> 
> I suggest against big MagLites, as they get tiresome dragging around. Their only advantage is, they can "throw" long ways, say 100m [...]


 
I'm not a big fan of the MagLites; even though I've tried, I can't seem to throw them as far as 100 m... :nana:



James Bond said:


> What I'm looking for is something relatively small, dirt/dust/shock proof, submergible and with great battery life.


 
Just to recap from post #1, the OP is looking for something relatively small, perhaps he can clarify with a maximum length? In an emergency I can see a role for both a very small light (i.e. 1xAAA) as well as a medium-sized light of considerably higher power, using 2xAA or 2xCR123.


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## wyager (Sep 8, 2010)

Without a doubt, absolutely a quark AA^2 or HDS clicky. The quark is cheaper, but both get amazing battery life on the lowest mode. The HDS might be a little more complex to use, but is highly customizable. I would personally get the quark, and then also buy a 1xAA battery tube as well. I think the HDS is way too expensive to leave sitting in a survival kit.


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## Imon (Sep 8, 2010)

Lets be totally frank - I know we all love the Ra Clicky (I know I do) but I've been noticing that it's being recommended to almost everyone for almost every purpose.
Might just be me but I'm not sure the Ra Clicky is the most appropriate light for a emergency bag. I'm saying this because I don't, and most other people don't, have $150 to spend on a flashlight for a emergency bag that'll probably be touched maybe once every other year. Besides a emergency bag needs more than just a fancy flashlight.
Honestly I think a simple Mini Maglite LED would suffice. Combined with a few spare sets of batteries - just keep it on low mode and it'll provide you with at least a day's worth of runtime. Plus the durability certainly isn't too bad except, perhaps, for the plastic lens. Oh, and throw in a Fenix E01 for good measure


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## jamesmtl514 (Sep 8, 2010)

Surefire 6P with M60LL or M61LL + a few spare batteries. Done.


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## mbw_151 (Sep 8, 2010)

My standard setup for vehicles and disaster kits is a Quark AA, a Zebra 501 headlamp, a headstrap and 2 spare AA lithiums. This setup is very flexible; spot or flood, high or low output, and long runtimes at moderate output levels.


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## saabgoblin (Sep 8, 2010)

Personally, I have a HDS Basic 42 in my earthquake bag that I bought relatively inexpensively over at CPFMP and a Jetbeam Jet 1 Pro as well with back up AA's and Cr123's. The UI on the HDS is much better in my opinion in comparison to the Jetbeam but since it uses AA's, I feel better knowing that I have two battery choices should extra batteries be found or needed. I am also planning on throwing in an old EOS Headlamp as well for overkill sake and probably an old Peak Matterhorn.

Explosion proof lights are a good idea but most that I have seen are single level such as the PT Impact XL and the Streamlight Luxeon Pro Polymer, both good relatively inexpensive choices but I feel that having at least one multilevel long running light is the best starting point with extra Lithium cells for longevity and to avoid the dreaded Alkaline leakage in a situation where you really need a reliable light and batteries.


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## Dude Dudeson (Sep 8, 2010)

utlgoa said:


> Led Lenser P7. It's not regulated so you will get 130 hrs of useful light from the 3 triple A batteries, and it should be tough enough. Here is a video of the light being run over by a 405 ton truck.......
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsS0A5PYrh0


 
I actually don't find that demonstration to be very impressive.

Drop tests impress me far more - what's the more likely way to break your light, a drop, or accidently being run over by a vehicle in sand?


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## tolkaze (Sep 8, 2010)

scottaw said:


> Personally, I have a 1aa headlamp in my bob. I keep a lithium in it, and in an emergency, i can scavenge for aa's.




That's what I have put in all my first aid kits... just cheapy headlamps with lithium primaries so I don't have to worry about leakage or them running out in a year or two of no use.

In my primary ermergency kit, I have a good AA headlight (warm) as well as a 2AA Quark both with lithium primaries in them

This is the best option for me, since AA's are about 20,000 times more common than say... CR123a's in an emergency, however I also keep a lot of those lights around with a box of batteries here and there since if it is an emergency, all batteries of all types may all be gone!


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## Harry999 (Sep 8, 2010)

I have HDS lights. The runtime is very good on these. With the 2xAA tube about to be available then they definitely have a role in a survival kit. You could carry the light using Li-ions or Lithium primaries and keep the 2xAA tube in the kit. I recall that considering the earlier point about use of lights in explosive environments, Henry said he had often used his lights in such environments without a problem. He had simply not paid the large sums required for certification of his lights as qualified for use in explosive environments.

However, the earlier suggestion of a Quark AA was also good because as the current runtime test thread shows it is good for way more than 10 days. I have just ordered one based on that thread and have also ordered the 2xAA Quark tube for if I want to use the higher levels with greater run times. I think it will be an excellent compliment to my HDS lights.


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## etc (Sep 8, 2010)

Whatever you pick, might think about getting several cheap lites to give out to other people in need. I don't know what's "cheap" in your part of the world. 

I got a bunch of new multi-mode MiniMags for 10 FRNs each and they make excellent gifts. They don't look "cheap". And you can keep several for troubled sheep. With Lithium AA cells, they will last.

I somehow don't use the D-cell Mags anymore. Another great lite to give away. It looks expensive or at least impressive.

Had a power outage this summer and the winter before. Never really used the big Mags. Inside, the beam is too narrow. Take the bezel off and it's still difficult to position it correctly to get the most out of it. 

Need to understand the budget, what's available in your part of the world and your preference.


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## guggep (Sep 8, 2010)

Hi Team,

After living through the 1971 Sylmar Earthquake and the 1994 Northridge Earthquake I have a few thoughts. Keep your options open - I have both 123 and AA lights. I very much prefer Lithium batteries because a corroded dead flashlight cant save your life. Keep spare batteries on hand, because you will not be able to get some when you really need them, and you will use yours quickly saving everyone in your neighborhood who didnt have a flashlight. Ok now, be kind to me after this suggestion guys but.... I also have a big stock of glow sticks. They are cheap, easy to store, are 100% water proof, the green ones give off the best light & last for 12 - 24 hours, and they have absolutely 0% chance of starting a fire or gas explosion. One other good tip, be sure to have a light and a survival kit in your office. That way if your parking structure collapses, and you lose the survival kit in your car, you can still make it home.


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## wantsusa (Sep 8, 2010)

I think one of the things to really consider is that of the simple cheap outdoor solar path light, it can be recharged each day, brought in each night and give you light even if you couldn't get anything for months!..unless of course you live where the sun don't shine.

I think your biggest things are really water, food, shelter.

Look around and you might find something that would really help in a disaster, something that you ordinarily wouldn't think about as it could help save your life. A water tank that you know of could have water stored enough for all around to drink, depending on season there might be things that are growing to eat, and newspaper can help you stay warm if you have to make yourself a quick shelter. 

So put up a bunch of outdoor solar path lights, and you can have your share of "flashlights"!


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## kaptain_zero (Sep 9, 2010)

I would seriously consider a Safe-Light 9v powered light. I would keep a spare battery or two next to it, but honestly, in my opinion, this is a great, cheap, uses readily available batteries, light for emergency purposes. When the shi*t hits, you can find this light by it's glow in the dark feature. It's simple to change the battery and it has enough light to get by, is rugged enough to take the knocks and drops and just keeps on giving. The small AAA lights are in a similar vein, but they don't have the constant glow feature so you can find them, they are small, so it's hard to get a handle on them and lastly, the AAA is probably less common than the 9v battery. 

I don't own the company, I don't get a kickback, but I do have a couple of their lights, and I downright love them for their ability to show me where they are and then they get the job done. I've tried to do the same with the E01 but it's so dang small, it gets lost in the shuffle... the Safe-light Survival or Handyman (my personable favorite, just because it has a magnetized clip) is just plain there. If you drop it by accident, it's still visible to you in pitch black conditions...... that constant glow shows you the way. Frankly, the constant glow is enough to find your way around if your eyes are acclimatized. I normally carry the HDS 170 but if I drop it before I turn it on.... I have no idea where it is..... I cannot say the same for my Safe-Light units..... 

So while another light may be more suited once you get a grasp on an emergency situation, it's the Safe-Light (In my opinion at least) that gets you out of the hole so you can find the rest of your gear, and go on from there. 

I do need to stress this again, I have zero interest in you buying or not buying Safe-light products, but if you ask ME, I'll tell you that I have Safe-Lights strategically placed in my realm so that I can find the rest of my d*mn emergency gear, and it WILL get deployed to other uses, once I do. 

Regards

Christian


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## Monocrom (Sep 9, 2010)

I'd put two lights in the kit.

My old UI Nitecore EZ AA model, and the single CR123 version of the light in the iTP EOS line. Both twist models for reliability. Both with more than one output level. Both only require a single cell. Both affordable. A few spare cells of each type, and you're good.


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## hyperloop (Sep 9, 2010)

kaptain_zero said:


> I normally carry the HDS 170 but if I drop it before I turn it on.... I have no idea where it is..... I cannot say the same for my Safe-Light units.....



Tritium is the answer to that.


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## Lumenz (Sep 9, 2010)

Imon said:


> Might just be me but I'm not sure the Ra Clicky is the most appropriate light for a emergency bag. I'm saying this because I don't, and most other people don't, have $150 to spend on a flashlight for a emergency bag that'll probably be touched maybe once every other year.



Actually, I think an HDS Systems EDC light is great for the BOB. I keep an EDC 140 in there. I figure that if I really need to use my BOB, I will want the best light available. Super low mode for long-lasting light, and bright for when I need to signal or search for something. I agree that it is pricey, but how much is it worth to make sure you have the right tools to help you survive?



guggep said:


> Ok now, be kind to me after this suggestion guys but.... I also have a big stock of glow sticks.



Glow sticks are a great idea. I keep some in my BOB as well. I have the white ones to give me better color rendition. They aren't as bright as the other colors but light sticks really aren't made to be bright.


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## Lumenz (Sep 9, 2010)

hyperloop said:


> Tritium is the answer to that.



Or the beacon mode.


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## mbw_151 (Sep 9, 2010)

So I'm not 100% up to speed on the newest HDS/Ra lights, but my two older HDS B42XR lights have a small current flow even when "off", parasitic drain I've read it's called. Lights that may live in an emergency bag or a vehicle should not have parasitic drain. Both my HDS lights rode around in cars but were unused for a long time, maybe a year and a half. When I went to use one it wouldn't drive the max output. I checked the other and it was the same. The both stepped down a couple of levels within seconds. The HDS/Ra lights are great EDCs and I've gone back to carrying them after an emitter upgrade, but for long shelf life nothing beats a Surefire with a lock out tail cap. Twist that tailcap and know that those electrons aren't going anywhere.


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## fnj (Sep 9, 2010)

Imon said:


> Lets be totally frank - I know we all love the Ra Clicky (I know I do) but I've been noticing that it's being recommended to almost everyone for almost every purpose.
> 
> Might just be me but I'm not sure the Ra Clicky is the most appropriate light for a emergency bag. I'm saying this because I don't, and most other people don't, have $150 to spend on a flashlight for a emergency bag that'll probably be touched maybe once every other year. Besides a emergency bag needs more than just a fancy flashlight.
> 
> Honestly I think a simple Mini Maglite LED would suffice. Combined with a few spare sets of batteries - just keep it on low mode and it'll provide you with at least a day's worth of runtime. Plus the durability certainly isn't too bad except, perhaps, for the plastic lens. Oh, and throw in a Fenix E01 for good measure



In the agreed purpose of frankness ... one day of runtime just does not impress me as a seriously considered survival light. All you need for one day is a decent AAA light that you every-day-carry everywhere you go and sprinkle them around the home and workplace - and it's a good start! But it's not the real thing.

Believe it or not, the proponents of the Clicky have carefully-considered reasons for advancing it for this purpose, besides just "love." The long-lived (weeks) ultra low setting is the very definition of "survival." The ruggedness is legendary. And the reliability is the trump card. The pretenders can and do drop like flies at any time without warning. The Clicky is phenomenally reliable. No other light combines all these features, except the Clicky and its HDS predecessors.

If $150 is considered too much lucre to help ensure one's survival, then I guess I yield, in all good nature.


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## Dr Jekell (Sep 9, 2010)

I am going to chime in on this one.

First off hi from another Kiwi

Second item on the agenda 

I EDC or have available several lights that I feel fit my needs & the need of any potential disaster (I work with (The Order of) St John, so I would be responding to any disasters or major emergencies)

My EDC is the following:



> In a Kifaru X-ray pack:
> 
> - Cell Phone
> - Glasses
> ...



By my bedside I have an old school Mini mag light with a Nitize 3 Led drop in & Lithium AA's. Not the brightest but will run for months.

I also have in my lounge an Energizer 4 x D cell CFL folding lantern (will replace with the LED version soon) and a Kathmandu 4 x D cell waterproof torch.

You will most likely find that your needs would be best met with a few different lights. Not necessarily just AA/AAA or CR123A exclusively.



hyperloop said:


> Tritium is the answer to that.



We are not allowed to import tritium into NZ in any amount AFAIK


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## fnj (Sep 9, 2010)

Awesome! Talk about prepared ...


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## fnj (Sep 9, 2010)

mbw_151 said:


> So I'm not 100% up to speed on the newest HDS/Ra lights, but my two older HDS B42XR lights have a small current flow even when "off", parasitic drain I've read it's called. Lights that may live in an emergency bag or a vehicle should not have parasitic drain. Both my HDS lights rode around in cars but were unused for a long time, maybe a year and a half. When I went to use one it wouldn't drive the max output. I checked the other and it was the same. The both stepped down a couple of levels within seconds. The HDS/Ra lights are great EDCs and I've gone back to carrying them after an emitter upgrade, but for long shelf life nothing beats a Surefire with a lock out tail cap. Twist that tailcap and know that those electrons aren't going anywhere.



It's possible that there was a defect either in the HDS or the battery. What was the battery brand?  Everything I have read indicates that the parasitic drain is so low it will not reduce the shelf life. For example, check this out https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2862139&postcount=4


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## entoptics (Sep 9, 2010)

Where did the OP go? :shrug:


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## fnj (Sep 9, 2010)

Between us all, we torqued him off. 

Hope we didn't.


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## toby_pra (Sep 9, 2010)

I would suggest a 18650 or Cr123 light, using Li-Ion cells, the best cells
therefore IMO. These cells can be stored a very long time and have no
problems with cold...:wave:

I would never use a Fenix or something like that. If its for survival you 
need a very reliable light (using an Led thats clear). I would use only a
Surefire (6P, C2 or M2). Also possible a G2 nitrolon. You will not have any
problems with these lights. And this is IMO the most important thing
you need for survival - a reliable light.


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## jabe1 (Sep 9, 2010)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Peak. An El Capitan will run on anything AA sized.


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## etc (Sep 9, 2010)

toby_pra said:


> I would suggest a 18650 or Cr123 light, using Li-Ion cells, the best cells
> therefore IMO. These cells can be stored a very long time and have no
> problems with cold...:wave:
> 
> ...




That sounds good. Nothing "digital". Some one-mode Surefire, like 6P, or 9P with the twisty tailcap and some LED module. 
I find the Surefire 6P ultra-reliable. Malkoff drop-in, Z41 tailcap. Dropped from the roof of the house by accident, just keeps on going - nothing in it *can* break, all components are bulletproof.
Biggest problem is you inserting the cells wrong way and overloading the module.


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## tarponbill (Sep 9, 2010)

After living in California for years, I always had a Mini-Maglite close-by. So I would recommend an updated LED version with 2AA Lithium batteries. They are time tested quality designs.

I liked storing them right above he door jambs, where you always ran to.

A good feature of the newer mini-Mags is they have flash and Morse code SOS ... plus low for extended burn.

Sure there are better lights out there, but for the quality/price? And available at Walmart. Cheap enough you don't mind leaving them around.


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## tandem (Sep 9, 2010)

toby_pra said:


> I would never use a Fenix or something like that. If its for survival you need a very reliable light



What was a high end headlamp many years ago, considered one of the better and more reliable lights in its day for climbers, once saved my butt when my partner and I were halted part way on a climb due to a storm and had to bivi or finish in the dark after the storm passed. Compared to today's robust LED flashlights and headlamps what I was using was a piece of junk - poor beam, low output, unreliable battery pack, heavy cells, wired configuration easy to get caught up in when climbing, lamp failure, switch flaky -- yet it was "state of the art" back then.

A Fenix (and comparable makers) light is orders of magnitude more reliable than any flashlight I carried when I was actively involved in mountaineering and search and rescue some years ago now. The light source is more reliable. The output is far better and more usable. The cells are more capable. The construction is more reliable. 

I remain unconvinced that Cadillac lights like the Surefire and Ra and the like are _orders of magnitude_ more reliable than more pedestrian yet well constructed lights such as the Fenix line and comparable brands. In a pinch, I fully expect both classes of light to work. Why wouldn't they? Tens of thousands of people carry such lights every day, use them every day, without issues. 

At any rate if one subscribes to the diversity approach to systems reliability, you are going to have more than one light available and in more than one location. There is no value in over thinking this - have a variety of lights on hand, in different locations, and surely something is going to work. No matter how much you spend on a primary light you are going to have backup*s* in case you can't reach your expensive ultra-reliable light under a ton of concrete or other debris. If a 5$ light happens to save the day instead of a 50$ or 200$ light, who really cares?

There is a tendency for folks who start to get interested in emergency preparedness to over think the little things and miss the big picture. You can build an effective emergency kit for next to nothing in cost if you want, or you can spend thousands and still miss the mark. Certainly one theme being repeated here in the thread is that diversity is important. Don't just have one light. Don't just have one emergency kit. Consider where you spend your time most days and plan accordingly. And try to relax. Planning for disaster has a way of putting people on edge!


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## wyager (Sep 9, 2010)

mbw_151 said:


> So I'm not 100% up to speed on the newest HDS/Ra lights, but my two older HDS B42XR lights have a small current flow even when "off", parasitic drain I've read it's called. Lights that may live in an emergency bag or a vehicle should not have parasitic drain. Both my HDS lights rode around in cars but were unused for a long time, maybe a year and a half.



A lithium primary should last 15 years in an HDS clicky. They did an incredible job of minimizing parasitic drain.


toby_pra said:


> I would never use a Fenix or something like that. If its for survival you
> need a very reliable light (using an Led thats clear). I would use only a
> Surefire (6P, C2 or M2). Also possible a G2 nitrolon. You will not have any
> problems with these lights. And this is IMO the most important thing
> you need for survival - a reliable light.



I 100% disagree. Not only do surefires have problems being waterproof (so I've heard), they are not the best in terms of battery life, compactness, or brightness (even with a good drop-in). They are also expensive. The chances of a fenix or similar light failing randomly is so low it's not worth thinking about.



etc said:


> That sounds good. Nothing "digital". Some one-mode Surefire, like 6P, or 9P with the twisty tailcap and some LED module.
> I find the Surefire 6P ultra-reliable. Malkoff drop-in, Z41 tailcap. Dropped from the roof of the house by accident, just keeps on going - nothing in it *can* break, all components are bulletproof.
> Biggest problem is you inserting the cells wrong way and overloading the module.



Why nothing digital? It's not like microcontrollers will get messed up if you drop them. Plus, a non-digital light probably doesn't have the power saving options of a digital one...


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## toby_pra (Sep 9, 2010)

wyager said:


> I 100% disagree. Not only do surefires have problems being waterproof (so I've heard), they are not the best in terms of battery life, compactness, or brightness (even with a good drop-in). They are also expensive. The chances of a fenix or similar light failing randomly is so low it's not worth thinking about.



Battery life? Why? 

When using a 17670 or 18650 (bored) you have the best battery, you could have.
I dont understand why people want to use AA battery's???

When i need a survival-kit after an earthquake, i dont think, you can 
battery's! So you can use a Li-Ion with a good capazity (from AW)!
And with the right Malkoff drop-in you have more than enuogh brightness.
Nobody needs more than 200lumens...

The more brightness, the less runtime...

You are right, these one's are expensive. But that doesnt matter to me 
when i need to survive! Thats my life, i only have one!


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## Monocrom (Sep 9, 2010)

Guys, let's not let this interesting topic degrade into one of those old "SureFire vs. Fenix" threads.

Both brands have their place, and I have lights from both brands. With SureFire, it isn't about output or a cheap price-tage. It's all about bullet-proof reliability and durability. With Fenix, it's about output, and a good level of reliability and durability at a bit of a premium. It's all about deciding how much one wants to spend, for which level of overall quality and output.


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## tandem (Sep 9, 2010)

toby_pra said:


> When using a 17670 or 18650 (bored) you have the best battery, you could have. I dont understand why people want to use AA battery's???



Irrespective of what brand of flashlight you put them in, the main reason many prefer AA's is because they are everywhere and can be obtained quickly and inexpensively. They can be scrounged in a hurry because they are so common. For that reason alone they should be considered.

Of course standard AA format (1.2 - 1.5v) cells are useful for more than just flashlights. Power your emergency radio receiver, your communications gear, or even your Taser Model M-26 stun-gun (takes an AA cell pack). If only I could power an espresso machine off my collection of AA cells...!


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## toby_pra (Sep 9, 2010)

@tandem

Thats clear to me...an AA battery you can get everywhere!

But the topic is about a Led flashlight for a survival kit! You dont need 
to buy battery's. You need a flashlight, just in the moment, you need
the survival kit. It does NOT matter if you can buy this type of battery
everywhere or not. I cant understand, why people discuss about this...

you need the battery before, you get in such a situation...:ironic:


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## Imon (Sep 9, 2010)

fnj said:


> Believe it or not, the proponents of the Clicky have carefully-considered reasons for advancing it for this purpose, besides just "love." The long-lived (weeks) ultra low setting is the very definition of "survival." The ruggedness is legendary. And the reliability is the trump card. The pretenders can and do drop like flies at any time without warning. The Clicky is phenomenally reliable. No other light combines all these features, except the Clicky and its HDS predecessors.
> 
> If $150 is considered too much lucre to help ensure one's survival, then I guess I yield, in all good nature.



Yes, believe it or not, there are more important things in a emergency bag than a flashlight. Some of that money could be better used on other items. Also, money is a *BIG* issue. If you spend money buying only "the best" stuff for your emergency bag you won't even survive your day to day life (which is 99.99% of your time). Additionally a days worth of runtime is actually a pretty long time, considering that, generally speaking, half the day will have sunlight and half the day won't and most people will be sleeping during the nighttime anyways given they are out of harms way.



Lumenz said:


> Actually, I think an HDS Systems EDC light is great for the BOB. I keep an EDC 140 in there. I figure that if I really need to use my BOB, I will want the best light available. Super low mode for long-lasting light, and bright for when I need to signal or search for something. I agree that it is pricey, but how much is it worth to make sure you have the right tools to help you survive?



My response above is kind of relevant to this post but you say you want the best light available - does this mean your BOB bag is full of everything that is the "best available"? Do you have the best water treatment supplies available? How about the best knife available? Perhaps you have the best first aid kit available in there too. After all, the three items I listed above I consider more important to have in a emergency situation than a flashlight.
I'm not trying to be too critical, I just want to put things in perspective. I'm just trying to make a point that compromises have to be made.

Having said all this - I'd probably have my Ra Clicky on me during a disaster situation too BUT only because it's my EDC light and I have it on me 90% of the time anyways.


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## Monocrom (Sep 9, 2010)

toby_pra said:


> . . . I can't understand, why people discuss about this...
> 
> you need the battery before, you get in such a situation...:ironic:


 
If you need to break out the items in your survival kit, it could be anything from a personal emergency, to a nationwide or county blackout, to perhaps even something much worse. If it's the last one, or perhaps even the last two, then it definitely is important to have a light that can run off of the most common cells out there. Namely, AA cells. Things might indeed be bad enough that you'll need to scrounge for cells, for long-term use of the light(s) in your survival kit. 

Unless you have a solar charger for those 18650 cells, they're not going to be very useful for a long-term survival or emergency situation.


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## scout24 (Sep 9, 2010)

I humbly suggest the OP read Sub Umbra's posts reference his experiences during and in the aftermath of Katrina if he already hasn't. A wealth of real world survival info.


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## Quension (Sep 9, 2010)

mbw_151 said:


> So I'm not 100% up to speed on the newest HDS/Ra lights, but my two older HDS B42XR lights have a small current flow even when "off", parasitic drain I've read it's called. Lights that may live in an emergency bag or a vehicle should not have parasitic drain. Both my HDS lights rode around in cars but were unused for a long time, maybe a year and a half. When I went to use one it wouldn't drive the max output. I checked the other and it was the same. The both stepped down a couple of levels within seconds.





wyager said:


> A lithium primary should last 15 years in an HDS clicky. They did an incredible job of minimizing parasitic drain.



What bugs me here is that there are a lot of assumptions going into this calcuation, and not much in the way of solid testing that I can find. For one thing, we're concerned about runtime during actual usage, not how long it takes for the parasitic drain to kill the battery on its own. I did some quick searching to come up with what data I could, so let's run some numbers.

There are varying figures for CR123A self-discharge rates, but 1.6% per year sounds like a good conservative assumption, so we'll go with that. We'll also start with a typical capacity rating of 1500mAh.

1500mAh reduced by 1.6% for 10 years = 1276mAh (~85% original capacity)

HKJ measured the HDS Clicky's parasitic drain at 5uA.

0.005mA * 24 hours per day * 365 days per year * 10 years = 438mAh
1276mAh - 438mAh = 838mAh (~55% original capacity)

So after 10 years, we're looking at about half the theoretical runtime, with the battery's seals at their expiration date -- and the light hasn't even been used yet.

This is without considering the passivation layer that forms on idle LiMnO2 batteries. An unanswered question here is what happens to that layer while under parasitic drain.

If the layer forms, then the theoretical capacity loss should be as good or better than the numbers above, but the battery may need some wake-up time on first use. This could explain what mbw_151 saw, if the drain from his particular lights was low enough to not have killed the batteries on their own, and he didn't repeatedly try them on high.

On the other hand, if the tiny load of the parasitic drain is enough to keep the passivation layer from forming, then the self-discharge rate of the battery itself would be higher, meaning the numbers above are useless and it could very easily be dead by the time you want to use it. This could _also_ explain what mbw_151 saw.

Frankly, the unknown effects here are troubling enough that I wouldn't want to rely solely on lights with a parasitic drain and the batteries in them for an emergency kit in storage for multiple years. Until someone with detailed experience with CR123A battery chemistry chimes in to fix the theoretical numbers, we won't really know the expected result. Until someone does actual solid testing, we won't know the real-world result.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with these stored locked-out, or with batteries stored separately.


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## flatline (Sep 9, 2010)

The whole goal is to have light when you need it.

So working backwards from that goal, what do we learn?

1. if you don't have a flashlight, you can't reach the goal. This implies lots of things.

1a. if you can't get to a light, you can't reach the goal. So make sure you either always have a light with you or have lights stashed near all the places you're likely to be in case of an emergency

1b. if someone takes your light, you can't reach the goal. Make sure you have enough to share so that no one ever feels compelled to take your last light from you. Being armed helps in this regard to some extent.

2. if you can't power your light, you can't reach the goal. There are lots of power management strategies and none of them are mutually exclusive.

2a. lights that power themselves never need batteries. Dynamo or shake lights are self sufficient. Even if they suck, sucky light is better than no light.

2b. keeping enough spare cells to ride out the emergency. This can backfire, though, if people realize you have batteries. They may take them from you, especially if they're a commonly useful size (this is a strike against AA cells, but a plus if you're using 18650 or CR123 cells).

2c. have a way to recharge your cells. This is great if you can do it, but it should never be your only power management strategy.

2d. choose a light that uses little power compared to the stored energy in its cell. 18650 lights with a low low mode can go months on a single cell if you're careful. Even some AA lights can make this claim.

2e. use a light that can be fed with easily scroungeable cells. AA lights are the clear winner here since AA's are ubiquitous in remotes, clocks, radios, etc. You can also use AAA's or AAAA's in an AA light using some paper and a stack of coins or a tinfoil ball or something (don't forget that many 9v cells are really just 6 AAAA cells in series).

3. if your only light breaks, you can't reach the goal.

3a. have lots of lights. even if they're cheap, a cheap modern light is far more reliable than the typical light was 20 or even 10 years ago.

3b. have an indestructible light. A Ra or SureFire (assuming you can get it and keep people from taking it away from you) will almost never let you down, but the same can be said for just about any modern light that isn't a complete throw-away. But indestructible doesn't protect you against losing the light (or having it taken away). Indestructible should be secondary to plentiful.


So, taking all this into account and assuming you have a limited budget, if you're already EDCing a modern light that can run a long time on a single cell or be easily fed (or both), your kit focus should be on cheap long running lights you can give to others and a discreet number of spare cells. Heck, even if you don't EDC a light, your kit focus should be on cheap long running lights you can give to others and a discreet number of spare cells.

What qualifies as discreet depends on your circumstances. Naturally, those of you holed up in an armed compound have less risk of having your stuff taken away by others, so your risk is less when investing in supplies. For the rest of us, a cheap long running light that uses easily scroungeable cells is the best bet.

--flatline


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## Lumenz (Sep 9, 2010)

Quension said:


> What bugs me here is that there are a lot of assumptions going into this calcuation, and not much in the way of solid testing that I can find. For one thing, we're concerned about runtime during actual usage, not how long it takes for the parasitic drain to kill the battery on its own.



Do you really just let your emergency kits just sit there for years without checking on your supplies and renewing your expired stuff, like MRPs and medications? I check my kit every 3-6 months to see if anything is close to expiration and to check my batteries; not only the ones in the flashlight, but the spares as well.

Given that the emergency kit should be checked every so often, I don't think it is a big deal to have a flashlight with some parasitic drain in the bag. I keep both my HDS EDC and a Zebralight headlamp in my emergency kit. Both lights have parasitic drain (although I lock out my Zebralight) but this is not a problem considering how low the parasitic drain is with both lights.


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## Quension (Sep 9, 2010)

Lumenz said:


> Given that the emergency kit should be checked every so often, I don't think it is a big deal to have a flashlight with some parasitic drain in the bag.



The problem is that you can't determine the remaining capacity of a Lithium primary except by actually discharging it, so _checking_ on batteries that have been under light load isn't enough if you expect to rely on them; you have to _replace_ them periodically. Which is definitely not a bad practice at all, it just means the batteries' rated shelf life is useless.

My long-winded post was mostly just challenging the assumption that parasitic drain is a non-issue for very long term storage.

The most practical advice I've seen either way is to store batteries in the emergency kit only for a certain period of time (like a year or so), then buy new ones for the kit and put the old ones into regular use. That way, whether potential problems come from parasitic drain or bad batteries, it's never really an issue in an emergency.


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## kaptain_zero (Sep 9, 2010)

(edit... some days I take too long typing, looks like a few other poster beat me to the punch... still, I'll leave my comments stand..... as moral support if nothing else! <grin>)


No matter what *type* of gear we are talking about, be it emergency, first aid or other, the key to making it reliable is regular inspection. My first aid kit gets checked once a month, even if I didn't use it...... why? Because, something might have happened, perhaps someone needed something and I wasn't around, perhaps there are expiry dates on some of the contents and if I just assume it's all ok, one day I will be rudely awakened. 

If I had firearms that I needed for safety, you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be field stripping, lubing and test firing the arms on a regular basis, cycling through the ammunition. Of course, being a polite Canadian, I don't own such things as firearms (anymore.....<sigh>) but if I did, I'd sure as heck keep checking them. 

Lithium batteries may be rated for 10 or 15 years lifespan in storage, but what *if* the particular batch you bought does NOT meet the specs the manufacturer stated...... What *if* the parasitic drain in your highfaluten flashlight is higher than specified. What *if* your dead nuts reliable incandescent light had a micro pore in the sealant used to seal the vacuum in YOUR particular bulb and air slowly, over a year or two, leaked in, ruining the bulb. What if those lights stored in the trunk got wet from a failing weather seal on your trunk lid and the water cause all sorts of hidden corrosion because you didn't actually open the bag and CHECK for problems, on a regular basis. All of these problems are detected by actually doing a regular and reasonably frequent inspection and test of the equipment. 

I check my first aid gear MONTHLY.... I check battery powered equipment every 6 months if not in common use. It's easy for me.... being Canadian, that means on Canada's birthday, July 1st and New Years, January 1st all batteries get checked or in the case of rechargeable cells, the spare ones get cycled in my chargers and then placed in all my devices and the other set gets pulled out of service and cycled before being stored as backup for the next 6 months. Checking not only the batteries but also the function of all my flashlights covers any corrosion that may have occurred, failing contacts, switches or electronics..... Nothing lasts forever and most mechanical/electronic devices fail faster from none use than being used regularly. Lubes dry out, capacitors dry out and well... the list goes on. 

I can't imagine anyone in the military going into a firefight with arms and ammo that was *checked* 2 years ago.... nor would someone feel comfy jumping out of a plane wearing a parachute that was packed and checked years ago..... It's the same for LED lights and or anything else in a survival kit.... It's gotta be checked on a regular schedule.... no excuses. 


Regards

Christian


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## Monocrom (Sep 10, 2010)

Always a good idea to check the gear in your survival kit on a regular basis. But I just don't see the point of putting lights with parasitic drain issues into such a kit. There are more than a ton of good lights that don't suffer from that problem. So why even go that route?

Why give Murphy an extra toy to play with? His Law is never on your side.

Wasn't a survival situation, but I still recall the time I needed my Gladius to work; and the cells had clearly been left in the light a bit too long. (Ended up using my Fenix L0D to finish the job.)


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## kaptain_zero (Sep 10, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> But I just don't see the point of putting lights with parasitic drain issues into such a kit. There are more than a ton of good lights that don't suffer from that problem. So why even go that route?




Parasitic drain is an issue, but it is not a "problem". Electronic switches only work when there is power to operate them, mechanical switches operate no matter if there is electrical power or not... until they suffer mechanical failure. 

So, both types of switches are good, and they both have their issues. You are correct, it's important to know what type of light you have in your kit..... and once you know, it just doesn't matter which one it is. If parasitic drain is a possibility, I can take steps to avoid it.... leave the batteries out, or as on some lights I may be able to lock out by loosening the tail cap or head. You would do the same to a mechanical switched light.

I'm not sure who commented about knowing how much battery life is left and yes, that is a problem. For mission critical work, you place fresh batteries in the kit, if the light cannot be locked out (either switch type) so it cannot drain the batteries accidentally, keep the batteries out of the light. It's actually a good idea anyway, as batteries do have a nasty habit of failing and leaking all manners of nasty stuff that corrodes and renders flashlights useless. Finding new batteries may be easier than trying to get a corroded light to work. Thus the recommendation of not storing batteries inside your device if unused for a long period of time..... uh..... err.... period.  However, while we know lithium primaries last much longer than alkaline etc., they still only last as long as they last and we don't know for sure how long those particular batteries that we have in our kit is going to last so we need to cycle them out of the kit, replacing with fresh ones even if they are not used and to be dead nuts sure, we need to do it more often than perhaps we would like financially. The way to mitigate the cost is to put those batteries pulled out of the kit to good use in daily use devices and then you'll get a good sense of how much juice was left in those stored batteries. A manufacturers *claim* isn't worth much when you're in the middle of nowhere and have a bloody emergency on your hands and the cells conk out.

2 is 1 and 1 is 0 is a saying we've all heard before.... redundancy is always the best way to ensure success when the chips are down and I don't just mean redundancy in your survival kit, I actually do mean in your Survival *KITS*!!! 

As for swapping out those batteries...... if you wish to be extra sure... my personal feeling is that not only should you have more than one set of cells, but you should, just to be safe, make each *set* a separate lot number, just to cover yourself in the case that a substandard lot might have made it to the store shelves and you bought it before they pulled it.... or more likely, the manufacturer may have simply let it slide, as it is probably cheaper for them to take the heat on a few complaints than to recall the entire lot. 

Regards

Kaptain "Just because I'm paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after me" Zero


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## Monocrom (Sep 10, 2010)

CR123 cells can last as long as 10 years. I prefer to use them up by 5 years. Then, just cycle fresh ones into the mix after the old ones have been used up.


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## Lumenz (Sep 10, 2010)

Quension said:


> The problem is that you can't determine the remaining capacity of a Lithium primary except by actually discharging it



I actually do test my lithium primary batteries, along with other batteries wtih a ZTS Battery Tester. It isn't totally accurate, but it definitely gives me an idea of how much charge my batteries have left.


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## lightplay22 (Sep 10, 2010)

I just threw away one of my only two remaining mag lights and would advise anyone against having alkaline batteries in anything that is not used often. I think this is about #8 of mags ruined through the years from battery leaks. Stuff that gets used often seems to never have a battery leak problem but anything that sets around for a while gets ruined. The saddest part of it is how you find out... "The light worked last week", Now its dead, and you can't get the batteries out of it. Just a thought.


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## fnj (Sep 10, 2010)

lightplay22 said:


> I just threw away one of my only two remaining mag lights and would advise anyone against having alkaline batteries in anything that is not used often. I think this is about #8 of mags ruined through the years from battery leaks. Stuff that gets used often seems to never have a battery leak problem but anything that sets around for a while gets ruined. The saddest part of it is how you find out... "The light worked last week", Now its dead, and you can't get the batteries out of it. Just a thought.



It is sad. You would think decades after their development they would have found a way to seal them so they would never leak. This makes me surer than ever that I never want to hazard using them in a nice titanium light or an expensive radio. Too bad there is no real alternative for D cells.

Has anyone ever had an L91 or L92 lithium leak?


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## Xacto (Sep 10, 2010)

lightplay22;3519955[... said:


> I think this is about #8 of mags ruined through the years from battery leaks.[...]


 

It's either that I am a lucky guy or the batteries on my side of the pond are more durable because so far, I haven't lost a flashlight (or any other piece of equipment) due to leakage.:thinking: (Keep fingers crossed that it stays that way)

Cheers
Thorsten


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## flatline (Sep 10, 2010)

fnj said:


> Too bad there is no real alternative for D cells.



Couple of thoughts.

You could put C or AA cells in battery upsizers and leave them in your D lights. This would allow you to use LSD NiMh or lithium cells. If the C or AA cells leak, it might ruin the batter upsizer, but it's less likely to ruin the light.

Alternatively, make a tube out of something thin that will protect the inside of the light from a leaky battery. Something like those flexible plastic cutting boards, perhaps. If the cell leaks, it might still corrode the head or tail of the light, but you'll at least be able to get the cells out of the light to be able to clean it.

Similarly, if you don't need the light to be instantly available, just store the batteries next to the light.

Finally, get a plastic D-cell light instead of aluminum. Plastic doesn't have the same problem where it chemically reacts with the leaked fluid and expands to trap the cells.

--flatline


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## etc (Sep 10, 2010)

Lumenz said:


> Do you really just let your emergency kits just sit there for years without checking on your supplies and renewing your expired stuff, like MRPs and medications? .




I don't -- but most people do. In fact, just having a 'kit' would be a huge step up for most people, who likely don't have such a thing.

My guess is, if someone comes in here and asks that type of basic question, he is looking for something:

1. Cheap
2. Common

There are a lot of cheap and common lites that are essentially almost as good as the pricey options listed here.

Maybe a pair of M*glites is just the ticket for him. A minimag and a C or D cell one.


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## etc (Sep 10, 2010)

lightplay22 said:


> I just threw away one of my only two remaining mag lights and would advise anyone against having alkaline batteries in anything that is not used often. I think this is about #8 of mags ruined through the years from battery leaks. Stuff that gets used often seems to never have a battery leak problem but anything that sets around for a while gets ruined. .



had that happen to me, kept a mag in the car year round. either summer or winter did it. I did get the cells out but it was still ruined.


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## Monocrom (Sep 10, 2010)

fnj said:


> Has anyone ever had an L91 or L92 lithium leak?


 
Lithiums don't leak. 

To me, that's a bigger advantage than the increased runtime they provide. My car light is a Princeton Tec EOS headlamp. Great light! And I keep AAA lithiums in it.

I do use alkies, but only in the cheap & bright flashlights I keep scattered around my apartment. If some of those batteries leak, I'm really not going to care. 

As I recall Sanyo makes D-cell Eneloops. Those also have the capacity of a D-cell. (Not just a rechargeable AA battery in a D-cell sized shell.) I still don't like the idea of using alkies or rechargeables for a survival kit light. But a rechargeable D-cell Eneloop is far better than any alkie.


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## toby_pra (Sep 10, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> If you need to break out the items in your survival kit, it could be anything from a personal emergency, to a nationwide or county blackout, to perhaps even something much worse. If it's the last one, or perhaps even the last two, then it definitely is important to have a light that can run off of the most common cells out there. Namely, AA cells. Things might indeed be bad enough that you'll need to scrounge for cells, for long-term use of the light(s) in your survival kit.
> 
> Unless you have a solar charger for those 18650 cells, they're not going to be very useful for a long-term survival or emergency situation.



You really think, you'll ever need a survival kit affter a nationwide blackout???:shakehead

Me not, although i have a Powermonkey solar charger! In the case of a 
nationwide blackout, you'll also have no chance to get a AA battery, or?!
Thats a discussion without end...i think the most important thing would be,
to have a flashlight without any problems, a reliable light.


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## Monocrom (Sep 10, 2010)

toby_pra said:


> You really think, you'll ever need a survival kit affter a nationwide blackout???:shakehead


 
Honestly? Yes.

That is a very real possibility during an extended blackout that lasts longer than a couple of days.


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## wyager (Sep 10, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> As I recall Sanyo makes D-cell Eneloops. Those also have the capacity of a D-cell. (Not just a rechargeable AA battery in a D-cell sized shell.) I still don't like the idea of using alkies or rechargeables for a survival kit light. But a rechargeable D-cell Eneloop is far better than any alkie.



Aren't they just 4 eneloop AAs in a shell? I was kind of disappointed by that.... 





Monocrom said:


> Honestly? Yes.
> 
> That is a very real possibility during an extended blackout that lasts longer than a couple of days.



I'm not sure why you _wouldn't_ want a survival kit during a nationwide blackout...  care to explain, toby?


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## toby_pra (Sep 10, 2010)

Sorry, i have another point of view.

I dont expect such a nationwide blackout. And if so, i would have a to use
a 18650 or more, also a solar charger. I dont like thinking about AA cells, because
theay are the most common, that wont be helpful in a nationwide blackout...:shakehead


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## MikeAusC (Sep 10, 2010)

entoptics said:


> Where did the OP go? :shrug:


 
There have been quite a few aftershocks, one was closer to Christchurch than the main 7.1 quake.

I suspect he's very busy.


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## Monocrom (Sep 10, 2010)

wyager said:


> Aren't they just 4 eneloop AAs in a shell? I was kind of disappointed by that....


 
Yes. But still far better than the usual practice of one AA recharegeable placed into a D sized shell. Still not the best way to male a D-cell rechargeable. But it's the best currently out there.


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## wyager (Sep 10, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> Yes. But still far better than the usual practice of one AA recharegeable placed into a D sized shell. Still not the best way to male a D-cell rechargeable. But it's the best currently out there.



It's definitely an improvement, but I'm surprised the predicted market for D sized rechargeables is so small that it's cheaper just to stick 4 smaller batteries together than to produce a single big one.


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## Kestrel (Sep 10, 2010)

wyager said:


> I'm surprised the predicted market for D sized rechargeables is so small [...]


Maybe because many folks are thinking along the lines of the OP in post #1:


James Bond said:


> What I'm looking for is something relatively small, [...]


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## MiniLux (Sep 10, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> Yes. But still far better than the usual practice of one AA recharegeable placed into a D sized shell. Still not the best way to male a D-cell rechargeable. But it's the best currently out there.



If those _4 eneloop AAs in a D-shell_ are _the best currently out there_, please tell us what's wrong with the AccuEvolution D Cell 10000 NiMH LSDs then? 

Back to topic, talking about survival kits lights:

For that I would never rely on any *multiple* cells light, whatever the cell format might be, as 'vampiring' cells from other sources will be one of your longtime options, but you would need to find at least two or more cells that are more or less paired, thus lowering your chances :shakehead

Personnally I would go for a combination of ZebraLight H51 & H31:
CR123 and AA lithium primaries do have a very long shelf life, H51 could take AA and AAA (with simple adapter) alkalines too, both lights are pretty small and bright, have a very good UI, feature a very long low runtime, and both can serve as headlamps, handhold and clip-on lights 

Maybe I would add a Proton Rex with the new solar charger kit too:
small, nice UI, long runtime on low, can be recharged on any 1.5V battery and on solar charger, and serves as a headlamp too. 
Hence, you would even be able to recharge it on USB:
* using one of those USB chargers with LiIons (e.g. DX sku.18883)
* on car batteries using a 12/24V outlet USB-plug (e.g. DX sku.29804 plus sth. like sku.43868)
* wall-plug USB adapters (e.g. sku.27528) if you happen to find a working outlet.

Last but not least, a 9V Pak-Lite:
it would not only give you endless runtime on low, but harvesting-sources for 9V batteries would be pretty endless - and above all 'out of concurency' - in a first time after a WTSHTF situation 


MiniLux


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## tandem (Sep 10, 2010)

toby_pra said:


> You really think, you'll ever need a survival kit affter a nationwide blackout???:shakehead Me not....



Whole nation? Maybe not in most developed nations but don't count on that. If I still lived in Ontario or lived in Quebec or the New England I would count on a severe ice storm to disrupt power and would prepare for that each winter. 

In 1998 such a storm brought down huge chunks of a continental power distribution system affecting millions - a country sized group of people - in the process. Hundreds of thousands remained without electricity for weeks. Several dozen people died -- probably no one or or just a few from a lack of light but a number from lack of heat (hypothermia). Many thousands of farm animals were killed.



toby_pra said:


> I dont expect such a nationwide blackout. And if so, i would have a to use a 18650 or more, also a solar charger.



Perhaps not in your region. But... who knows. Your home or neighbourhood or apartment could be destroyed by fire, or topically, a natural gas pipeline explosion. Perhaps you'd have to live in a temporary shelter. My team runs those sorts of things - in our area we had widespread wildfires one year with thousands of people displaced, not al had a place to go. If your "home" suddenly becomes a cot on a gymnasium floor, you may not have ready access to exotic cells or a solar charger but might still want to fire up a cheap AAA or AA light to find your way around at night to the unfamiliar bathrooms.



> I dont like thinking about AA cells, because
> theay are the most common, that wont be helpful in a nationwide blackout...:shakehead



If you are absolutely certain that you'll have ready access to both your light and spare exotic cells then you've got more confidence than I do and I spend a lot of time in emergency planning and real field response.

Myself, I'm going to stick with using lights that can run on commodity cells because I have complete confidence in ubiquity but none in obscurity. Cheers!


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## tandem (Sep 10, 2010)

toby_pra said:


> You really think, you'll ever need a survival kit affter a nationwide blackout???:shakehead Me not....



Whole nation? Maybe not in most developed nations but don't count on that. If I still lived in Ontario or lived in Quebec or the New England I would count on a severe ice storm to disrupt power and would prepare for that each winter. 

In 1998 such a storm brought down huge chunks of a continental power distribution system affecting millions - a country sized group of people - in the process. Hundreds of thousands remained without electricity for weeks. Several dozen people died -- probably no one or or just a few from a lack of light but a number from lack of heat (hypothermia). Many thousands of farm animals were killed.



toby_pra said:


> I dont expect such a nationwide blackout. And if so, i would have a to use a 18650 or more, also a solar charger.



Perhaps not in your region. But... who knows. Your home or neighbourhood or apartment could be destroyed by fire, or topically, a natural gas pipeline explosion. Perhaps you'd have to live in a temporary shelter. My team runs those sorts of things - in our area we had widespread wildfires one year with thousands of people displaced, not all had a place to go. Thus they go to a communal living shelter, with few belongings. If your "home" suddenly becomes a blanket and a cot on a gymnasium floor, you may not have ready access to exotic cells or your solar charger (count on that!) but might still want to fire up a cheap AAA or AA light powered by cells available in the convenience store across the street so that you'll have a little light to find your way around the shelter at night to the unfamiliar bathrooms.

Both of the examples I've given above - a widespread power outage, and more local fire related disasters - are real, somewhat common in the grand scheme of things, and tend to inconvenience or displace people and often remove them from their belongings and often in a real hurry. Pack some of those exotic cells in your pockets!



> I dont like thinking about AA cells, because
> theay are the most common, that wont be helpful in a nationwide blackout...:shakehead



If you are absolutely certain that you'll have ready access to both your light and spare exotic cells then you've got more confidence than I do and I spend a lot of time in emergency planning and real field response.

Myself, I'm going to stick with using lights that can run on commodity cells because I have complete confidence in ubiquity but none in obscurity. Cheers!


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## Tixx (Sep 10, 2010)

Just put a Quark MiNi CR2 xp-g neutral in a kit that I carry on my side while camping.


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2010)

tandem said:


> In 1998 such a storm brought down huge chunks of a continental power distribution system affecting millions - a country sized group of people - in the process. Hundreds of thousands remained without electricity for weeks.



We had torrential storms here late last week (reminiscent of the March storms earlier this year) subsequently in addition to "others" being flooded out of their homes & businesses basic infrastructure was effected resulting in 8h black outs (torches are mandatory with small children and zero light), candles create an unnecessary level of added risk to such situations IMHO :thumbsup:

Our emergency kit comprises of a cupboard full of torches, batteries & most important of all a portable DVD player (and extra supportive power sources) LMAO  




* We really must invest in some type of solar charged backup system for the house * :thinking:


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## Monocrom (Sep 11, 2010)

toby_pra said:


> Me not, although i have a Powermonkey solar charger! In the case of a
> nationwide blackout, you'll also have no chance to get a AA battery. . .


 
Sorry, should have posted this a bit sooner.

I completely agree with you about not being able to _easily _get your hands on AA cells during a major nationwide blackout or similar emergency. That's why I mentioned in an earlier post that I'd keep two lights in the kit. A single AA model, and a single CR123 model. You'll definitely find CR123 cells sitting on the racks of a major pharmacy chain long after all the more common cells are sold out. 

In a truly horrifically bad situation, you can scrounge for AA cells for use later on.


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## wyager (Sep 11, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> Sorry, should have posted this a bit sooner.
> 
> I completely agree with you about not being able to _easily _get your hands on AA cells during a major nationwide blackout or similar emergency. That's why I mentioned in an earlier post that I'd keep two lights in the kit. A single AA model, and a single CR123 model. You'll definitely find CR123 cells sitting on the racks of a major pharmacy chain long after all the more common cells are sold out.
> 
> In a truely horrifically bad situation, you can scrounge for AA cells for use later on.



I think this is somewhat off. Every single person with the wherewithal to use a CR123 light is probably in the same mindset of getting batteries ASAP. I guarantee you CR123s will run out much faster than the massive storeroom stockpiles of AAs most chains keep. In every real-world scenario involving a disaster or blackout, relief organizations will bring C, D, and AA batteries first. I was reading a post a while back from a new york LEO (I forget whom on the forum) and he said that during 9/11 they had more alkalines donated than they knew what to do with, but no lithiums.

Plus, it's worth noting that even some supermarkets and large stores don't carry any lithium batteries at all. As you said, you can find AAs anywhere, even if it means opening up the remote controls of demo TVs to get them (If you were that desperate....).


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## TwinBlade (Sep 11, 2010)

Dr Jekell said:


> My EDC is the following:


You have nothing on that list for making a fire...and i am not suggesting a Bic lighter that can fail, leak, lose ability at higher altitudes from oxygen loss and cold temperatures. I am talking about a flint and steel or a firesteel. It is all I use when camping or making a fire and you can make a spark in pouring rain with them...even if the flint of firesteel are wet too. they will always spark.:thumbsup:

It is also a way of purifying water without the use of potentially toxic and harmful purification tablets. 


"edit" I do see a lighter on your list. If you are going to use a lighter, at least make it a non pressurized one like a Zippo and carry fuel in those little sealed aluminum fuel cannisters made by Zippo. 

Aside from your brain, fire, water and shelter are the most paramount things in a crisis situation.


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## Linger (Sep 11, 2010)

Using the *12v auto adapter* (car lighter) would do for the first round of recharges, plenty of power in our vehicles (IMO far less conspicuous than running a generator.)
I've the car adapter for my eneloop charger, but best my accucell 6 will monitor input current and let me decide to start the engine /vs/ terminating the charge early.


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## Monocrom (Sep 11, 2010)

wyager said:


> I think this is somewhat off. . .


 
I'm afraid I can't agree. As flashaholics, we are likely to have several CR123 cells at home. (I have two cases myself.) But if you are not near home when the emergency breaks out, you can go to a pharmacy and stock up on those CR123 cells that every average person uses for their digital cameras. They won't be cheap, but if you need them; few of the large chain pharmacies don't stock them. 

An average person is going to go after the AA, AAA, C, D, and 9volt cells first. They're not going to bother with extra batteries for their digital cameras. The example you pointed out above supports this mentality that I've described. Those average folks sent in a ton of the most common cells because they thought that was what was needed most. (No CR123 cells. Those who donated figured why should they bother sending in useless cells that are designed for digital cameras.) I haven't seen CR123 cells in supermarkets either. But the better-known pharmacies have them. 

Why didn't the folks who donated batteries send in lithiums in the more common designations? Most likely, price. Least expensive 4-pack of AAA lithiums I've been able to find were $10 at Rite-Aid. That much money will buy quite a few more alkies. The average person probably figured that what was needed during the aftermath of those murderous attacks was volume. Tons upon tons of cells. 

The alkies are going to sell out first during a major blackout. But once those are gone, the lithium versions of those cells will still sell out long before the CR123 cells are touched. If you are close to home, and you own CR123-based lights; then chances are you have at least a case of cells for those lights. (If not more.) Since buying Made in America or Made in Japan CR123 cells, along with buying them online and in bulk is the only way to save money on them. 

If it looks as though it's going to be a long-term survival situation, you can then pay premium prices for CR123 cells inside a B&M shop; while scrounging for as many common alkies as you can find. No need to choose between AA vs. CR123. Buy both! iTP makes good, inexpensive, examples of both types of lights. Keep all your bases covered.


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## Dr Jekell (Sep 11, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> You have nothing on that list for making a fire...and i am not suggesting a Bic lighter that can fail, leak, lose ability at higher altitudes from oxygen loss and cold temperatures. I am talking about a flint and steel or a fire steel. It is all I use when camping or making a fire and you can make a spark in pouring rain with them...even if the flint of fire steel are wet too. they will always spark.:thumbsup:



This is an EDC bag for use in an urban environment, I can not think of any reason why I would be taking my EDC kit with me on a trip to high altitudes?

I would not be creating an open fire in my AO as I have no need to. If I get cold I either go somewhere warm or put on more clothing, If I need to cook I use my stove or failing that my camping stove.

I do carry a lighter, it is a cheep windproof jet lighter but I will be replacing it as I noted at the bottom of the list:



> - Windmill Delta Shockproof Lighter (To replace Lighter)



I rarely have need for a lighter as 85% of the time I am < 60 minutes from home in my AO.

As well as that I will have several different fire making methods in my BOB that is under construction.



TwinBlade said:


> It is also a way of purifying water without the use of potentially toxic and harmful purification tablets.



You miss the point that this is an EDC bag with a few GHB items included. It is not my BOB which I am in the process of putting together ATM. 

I will be getting a water filter to put in the BOB but I will not need anything in my EDC bag as I am either at home (where I have water stored), at work (where we sell a large variety of drinks), in town (which is <10 min walk home, or at an event where I will always take at least a 1.5L bottle of water & food even if it is just in town.

As to the tablets you so nicely described, they would just be another chemical in the millions or so that you are exposed to each year that do you no real harm.



TwinBlade said:


> "edit" I do see a lighter on your list. If you are going to use a lighter, at least make it a non pressurized one like a Zippo and carry fuel in those little sealed aluminum fuel canisters made by Zippo.



Why would I want a liquid fuel lighter in my bag? The fuel in it can evaporate soiling the bag & its contents, also rendering the lighter non functional untill it is refilled.

Plus you advocate carrying an amount of liquid fuel in my EDC bag which would add unnecessary weight & look a bit suspicious to the police if stopped.



TwinBlade said:


> Aside from your brain, fire, water and shelter are the most paramount things in a crisis situation.



To a point, in an urban area fire can cause more problems than it solves, considering in a disaster you may have destroyed buildings, broken gas pipes, flammable chemicals, blocked roads (Ie no nice fire engines can get to you to put out the fire you just started & it set the surroundings on fire).


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## toby_pra (Sep 11, 2010)

@tandem

In some case you are right...i live in another county, due to that i would 
need another emergency kit. 

But always i have enough battery's and a solarcharger... :wave:


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## wyager (Sep 11, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> An average person is going to go after the AA, AAA, C, D, and 9volt cells first. They're not going to bother with extra batteries for their digital cameras. The example you pointed out above supports this mentality that I've described. Those average folks sent in a ton of the most common cells because they thought that was what was needed most. (No CR123 cells. Those who donated figured why should they bother sending in useless cells that are designed for digital cameras.) I haven't seen CR123 cells in supermarkets either. But the better-known pharmacies have them.
> 
> Why didn't the folks who donated batteries send in lithiums in the more common designations? Most likely, price. Least expensive 4-pack of AAA lithiums I've been able to find were $10 at Rite-Aid. That much money will buy quite a few more alkies. The average person probably figured that what was needed during the aftermath of those murderous attacks was volume. Tons upon tons of cells.
> 
> The alkies are going to sell out first during a major blackout. But once those are gone, the lithium versions of those cells will still sell out long before the CR123 cells are touched. If you are close to home, and you own CR123-based lights; then chances are you have at least a case of cells for those lights. (If not more.) Since buying Made in America or Made in Japan CR123 cells, along with buying them online and in bulk is the only way to save money on them.


This is where I disagree a little. Most people probably won't even think about stocking up on batteries in a situation like this. Heck, many "normal" people don't even have a flashlight, maybe some $3 plastic one sitting in the garage. Chances are, all the people who shelled out for something like a surefire or wal-mart light that use CR123 (things they might find without being as in to lights as us) appreciate the value of batteries more than the average muggle. And as to your comment about having cases of batteries around the house, don't you have cases of AA batteries as well? I'm not talking about how many batteries you already have, I'm talking about how many you can get.

And when I say there were no "lithiums" donated to LEOs during 9/11 I mean no CR123s. They were available, but nobody bought them. I don't imagine they care so much about the price when they're sending in hundreds of alkies. Although it's possible they were thinking of quantity vs quality, I find it more likely that there simply weren't many available.


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## etc (Sep 11, 2010)

This is my "survival kit" for when TSHTF:

Left to right:
Garmin GPS, Uniden Scanner, Surefire 6P in a holster, pouch with spare CR123A cells.







The EDC light is a Surefire 6P clone with Malkoff M61.

Inside the sturdy plastic case, there is also:
Surefire 9P with Malkoff M60LL module
24xCR123A cells
30xAA Lithium cells
A few eneloop and alkalines AA cells

The really cool thing about Surefire 9P with Malkoff M60LL is that it will run either on 3x123 or 2xAA, with diminished lumens but run nonetheless. So it makes it a perfect TSHTF lite. 
Additionally, I can borrow the M60LL module into the Surefire 6P and gain some runtime.


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## tandem (Sep 11, 2010)

I suppose this will change over the next few years but from what I've seen during our most recent power outages here in Vancouver most "normal" folks not yet exposed to better flashlights seem to have in their homes D and/or C cell sized lights or 6v lantern battery powered lights. My sample size is small - I checked in with a few of my friends and home-owners directly around me. Only one family had what I would call a truly workable light with spare cells. Two had dead bulbs in lantern or D sized incan lights (one of those was relying on a kids toy for illumination). Two had incan D or C sized lights that were already dim when first switched on and didn't make it through a 1 hour outage. Two families also happened to be cyclists so they also had some led bike lights but in one case, no front lights so all they had were red blinkies. One family had not a single working light at all... they discovered they'd lost it on a camping trip. One of my friends had lights for each of their kids and several spares.

If this very poor sample is at all representative I expect C and D cells to disappear from shelves first, aided by the reality that there are usually far fewer of them on store shelves to begin with when compared with AA and AAA sizes.

At any rate hopefully people building emergency kits are not only focussing on Mad Max type apocalyptic futures -- if someone plans for run of the mill emergencies and in their kit*s* stock some cells (of any type!) and more than one light they are going to be more prepared than the vast majority of the population.


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## etc (Sep 11, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> I'm afraid I can't agree. As flashaholics, we are likely to have several CR123 cells at home. (I have two cases myself.) But if you are not near home when the emergency breaks out, you can go to a pharmacy and stock up on those CR123 cells ..........



The flaw in this thinking is that during TSHTF, the roads are likely to be blocked. Happened here this summer. All the stoplights were out. Traffic very slow. Recall the flight out of New Orleans? The roads unpassable.
Even if the roads and traffic doesn't get you, in a collapse, the stores will be looted clean.
Or the cash register not working due to lack of electricity.

What you have is what you have. My plan does not entail resupply at all. If it does, you have a fatal flaw. I don't need cells. I *have* cells, enough for 10 years probably, and with me a kit that should last me a few weeks easy.

This is my CR123A stash:






Laptop 18650 cells. Each one will run Malkoff M60LL for 12-18 hours depending on capacity.






Also have a bunch of Lithium AA cells, a ton of Alkaline D and C cells, plus AA Alkaline and also Carbon Zinc heavy duty junk. If all that is not enough, I am in serious trouble.


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## SuperTrouper (Sep 11, 2010)

Fantastic photos etc, thanks.

Looks like you've got your power needs covered!


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## flatline (Sep 11, 2010)

etc said:


> Laptop 18650 cells. Each one will run Malkoff M60LL for 12-18 hours depending on capacity.



Out of curiosity, is that a grease pen you're using to mark your 18650s?

And what is the value you're marking on the outside of the cell? Open-circuit voltage after it's settled off the charger?

--flatline


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## etc (Sep 11, 2010)

It's a permanent marker. Designates the voltage that is stable. Anything below 4.10V I discard. Anything that gets hot while charging is also thrown out. The vast majority are about 2400-2600 mAh. I have about 100 cells (pic above is old) but I had to throw away about 100.

These cells are not that good, who knows how much capacity they have left, they are semi-disposable but they do run the lites I have very well. I can sustain a major power outage just on these 18650's before dipping into primaries. 
I also have some "good" 18650's but not enough to make a difference.
All in all, I probably have enough cells for the next 10 years.

Also have Mag with Nite-Ize module, plus MiniMag with low-powered modules, plus Gerber Infinity - these ultra dim bulbs run forever... 







CR123As are not for everyone... 
Back to the subject, for Joe Six-Pack on the street, some cheap 2xAA lite loaded with Lithium cells might be the ticket. I like 18650s and CR123A cells and chargers but I think that J6P on the street does not "get it", nor does he need to. 

M*glite and similar is the "People's Choice". I have a few, specifically designated as give-away lites to the sheeple. They think it's top of the line stuff and expensive.


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## etc (Sep 11, 2010)

Here is some visual stuff about the NZ Earthquake, to get you an idea what you would be facing and what kind of lite you need. Looks like the power grid is down in suburbs, not sure if down in the city - if it's damaged while buried or not. The overhead power lines are certainly down. Takes weeks to restore them, if not months.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-202_162-10004744.html


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## wyager (Sep 11, 2010)

Very impressive battery collection etc. I keep only a small box of batteries, a few CR123s, some AAs, and a few rechargeables. However, with my quark they should be able to last me longer than I will ever need. I guess we're planning for different lengths of time we might need them


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## Monocrom (Sep 11, 2010)

etc said:


> The flaw in this thinking is that during TSHTF, the roads are likely to be blocked. . .


 
The issue of re-supply was in reference to being out & about, away from home; when something such as a major blackout happens. In that case, you won't be at home where your large supply of cells are stored. (Those are impressive pics you posted, but you don't carry all of those around with you when you step out your front door.)

If you're at work, major blackout hits, then all you'll have on you are your EDC items and your survival kit. If your gut tells you things aren't going to get better soon, you might decide to get some some extra cells for the light you EDC and the one(s) in your kit. 

Getting to the nearest pharmacy, you'll notice most of the racks picked clean. What you will also see is likely plenty of CR123 cells selling for $9 each. Not cheap, but they'll be there. If you need them, buy them; until you can get home to your supply of cells. 

Granted, such a scenario is more likely under certain circumstances than others. If you live only a handful of miles from where you work, if the roads are clear, and your car is parked in the company parking lot; you can just drive home. If you live a long way from work, road conditions are bad, or take public transportation to your job; then walking over to the nearest pharmacy is pretty much a must. Besides cells, you'll likely need a few other items such as food or snacks; until you can manage to get home. Not every situation that requires using the items in your kit is going to be the same. You can have an attic full of cells, solar chargers, lights, food, water, and other equipment. But if you're far from home, and for whatever reason you can't just hop into your car and drive home; then you may indeed need to buy extra supplies for your kit until you can manage to get home.

As for registers being out, that won't stop a dedicated businessman from making a nice chunk of profit off of desperate customers who come flooding into his store. Some will just pull out an old, non-electric, cash register. Some will keep a bag full of cash behind the counter, with a large and intimidating fellow keeping an eye out for sticky-fingered customers. (That fellow might be armed as well, sometimes openly.) Takes more than a blackout to stop a dedicated businessman. The great ones know how to take advantage of a national disaster.


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## Burgess (Sep 11, 2010)

This is a great thread !

Thank you to *everyone* for their contributions.

:thumbsup:


One thing i've noticed . . . .


Every Menards (home improvement store) i've ever been to

has a big, massive Generac emergency power generator, sitting in their parking lot.


Glad to see they've done their homework !


_


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## bansuri (Sep 12, 2010)

The little 9v Safe-Lights would be great to have handy as you could raid fire detectors and garage door openers for batteries. 
That said, I've had a philosophy shift:
If things are _that_ bad then I'll sleep when it's dark and stay awake when it's light, it seems like creeping around in a disaster zone after dark could get a person in trouble.
If you live in a non third-world country and you don't have batteries by 6 months then it is the end of the world and the battery factories will not be returning, you'd be wise to just hold on to them for extreme circumstances and teach your offspring that these flashlights will not be available for them when they are adults.
Our flashlights will eventually fade away and we will need to be concerned with discovering and refining methods to create fire and light with abundant raw materials found locally that we can teach our post-apocalyptic children to use.
We will tell tales of our glory days when we carried "Fire Lights" in our pockets. 
Or it _won't_ be the end of the world and the forums will be filled with the most epic stories of Flashlight "wins" imaginable that they will need to make a new sub-forum for them.
hmmmm, off to find my daughter's Safe-Light.


OT-

Also, while I have a semi-captive audience of people who actually _think about and plan for emergencies_: for your family's sake make sure your will is in order and your wishes are known regarding how you want to be laid to rest and if you have a living will. That's an emergency we will all face and it will either be very easy or incredibly hard if we are unprepared.


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## wyager (Sep 12, 2010)

bansuri said:


> Also, while I have a semi-captive audience of people who actually _think about and plan for emergencies_: for your family's sake make sure your will is in order and your wishes are known regarding how you want to be laid to rest and if you have a living will. That's an emergency we will all face and it will either be very easy or incredibly hard if we are unprepared.



I'm too young to be thinking much about this, but I've already decided-I will be purified and compacted in to an artificial diamond. How awesome is that? Only a few thousand a pop too. It would be cool if it became a societal tradition to have a big necklace or something with all the dead ancestors on it.


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## Dr Jekell (Sep 12, 2010)

bansuri said:


> If things are that bad then I'll sleep when it's dark and stay awake when it's light, it seems like creeping around in a disaster zone after dark could get a person in trouble.



It may not be night when you need a light. Remember if the building you are in is say a large store in a mall the only lighting available is (usually) the store lights. Loose that & it can be pitch black, now try to find you way out of an unfamiliar building with an unknown floor plan.

Or try to look around a partially collapsed house, there will be dark areas. 

Or in this case aftershocks that could cause further destruction of buildings requiring evacuation of previously fine buildings, an ambulance station that was in use after the quake was later condemned due to damage from aftershocks.

******

etc - Very nice kit.

I plan on changing the pelican 1010 case with 15 CR123A batteries that is in my EDC bag to a Pelican 1020 case with 24 CR123A batteries.

I also plan on swapping my Novatac for a Surefire L1.

And add another Maxpedition volta case with 8 Lithium AA batteries to compliment the volta case already in there.

So between the 2 or 3 CR123A lights, a Fenix L2T/GPS/scanner I should be covered for batteries for a while.

Now I just have to figure out what I am to do with the pelican 1010 case of batteries. I may get a Eagle E&E bag and make a emergency response kit.

I will also be using battery station to order my own CR123A stash, I think 200 or so cells should last me a while.


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## Monocrom (Sep 12, 2010)

Dr Jekell said:


> It may not be night when you need a light. Remember if the building you are in is say a large store in a mall the only lighting available is (usually) the store lights. Lose that & it can be pitch black, now try to find you way out of an unfamiliar building with an unknown floor plan.
> 
> Or try to look around a partially collapsed house, there will be dark areas.
> 
> ...


 
An excellent point. Sometimes a flashlight comes in very handy on a bright, sunny day.

Considering yesterday's Day of Rememberance, I'm reminded of how nearly every survivor who had a light basically used the light from their cellphone screens to navigate their way down the stairs. Few had actual flashlights on them.


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## etc (Sep 12, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> (Those are impressive pics you posted, but you don't carry all of those around with you when you step out your front door.)
> 
> * I carry the little green pouch on the belt, it can take either 6x123 or 3x18650 cells, and looks like a small cell phone case. That alone should give you ample runtime to get where you need to be going. If I EDC Malkoff M60L, that's 4 hours per set * 3 = 12 hours not counting the cells already in it.
> 
> ...



In actuality, before getting the kind of kit I have, it's more prudent to take care of:

1. water
2. food
3. generator and gas
4. self-defense tools if you are in the city
5. heat, kerosine heaters or firewood or propane something

The lite is just a tool to facilitate all of the above, to make moving firewood easier, from your pile to your fireplace, in the dead of the night. Or to cook food, or whatever.

Last winter I was caught with my pants down, major outage, cold, snow, I think it was out for 4 days, which is really not that bad. No driving, our road was not high on the priority list to either fix power or clean and when they cleaned it, it would pile back up. Both of my cars were RWD and handled poorly in the snow.

Worse, I ran out of firewood. Had to dig out the chainsaw and go cut wood in the middle of the night -- I have a forest next to me. Strapped a headlamp on and it worked out nicely all in all but pretty dumb idea looking at it now. 

In actuality what you really need is not some toy lite with a few spare cells but a complete off the grid system, solar and all. Costs about 20K FRNs now. I am waiting for the price to come down. Maybe buy some piece of property in the boonies that is so cheap, and without electric (too much to install) and put in the solar. I think the price should half in the next decade.


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## etc (Sep 12, 2010)

Dr Jekell said:


> I plan on changing the pelican 1010 case with 15 CR123A batteries that is in my EDC bag to a Pelican 1020 case with 24 CR123A batteries.
> 
> And add another Maxpedition volta case with 8 Lithium AA batteries to compliment the volta case already in there.



Yeah, Pelican 1010 is nice, I have one as an accessory to the main case in the car, if I go somewhere where there is even more risk. 24x123 will fit in it nicely and it seems indestructible.

The little pouches you can wear on your belt are pretty nice too. They fit anything from AA, CR123A to even 18650s.


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## etc (Sep 12, 2010)

This is the choice for the sheeple on the street.

1. Inexpensive and affordable.
2. Runs on common cells.
3. Good runtime.

I keep some specifically to give away to clueless neighbors / friends.


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## etc (Sep 12, 2010)

This is required watching for anyone seriously preparing for a TSHTF collapse.

Short version: People's psyche during TSHTF is unpredictable and if faced with a threat, they will pick your stuff clean. Talk to nobody about your supplies. Don't advertise your preparedness. Lites included.

Another thought that has occured to me, a low powered lite could be useful because it gives off such a low signature. I got yelled by my next door neighbor recently for shining at the woods next to his house - I was 500m away but he still got freaked out. These powerful lites can be seen a long ways out in the dead of the night. 

Twilight Zone - the Shelter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ei7Gr-0uNU


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## davidt1 (Sep 12, 2010)

James Bond said:


> After escaping an earthquake I'm looking at putting together a survival kit.
> 
> What I'm looking for is something relatively small, dirt/dust/shock proof, submergible and with great battery life.
> 
> I appreciate your suggestions.



Emergencies can happen anywhere at anytime. In fact, they are more likely to happen when you are not at home. I would start with on-person EDC and go from there. In fact, what I carry on my person everyday will also be stuff I use in any emergency whether at home or away from home.

I can not emphasize enough the importance of being able to use your lights hand-free in an emergency. Imagine you are in a burning building. Smoke and debris reduce visibility to nothing. You not only need a light source but your hand free to work your way out of the building. You need a headlamp.

If you are stuck in a building after an earthquake, chances are the doors and entry ways are damaged and don't open. You are gonna need to use your hand to force your way out. You need a headlamp.

I carry a Zebralight H501 and a Maratac AAA at all times. The reason I am able carry them with me at all times is because they are among the smallest and lightest in their class. The H501 is my main light and the Maratac is the backup light. I am also able to carry 4 batteries on me as well.

Here are the H501 and batteries on my belt. The Maratac and one AAA battery are kept in the wallet. They are neatly out of the way and always ready for any emergency that calls for lights.


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## Trancersteve (Sep 12, 2010)

I would want a light that had a wide range of brightness settings so I could conserve what ever batteries I had on me.

I would tend to say an AA or AAA light as the cells are common as muck.

The soon to be released 4AA Fenix LD40 has my attention.
Claims of:
4 lumens for 245hrs (over 10 days)
43 lumens for 27hrs
110 lumens for 9hr 43mins
248 lumens for 3hr 13mins

Sounds like a perfect emergency light. However using 4 cells can be a disadvantage.


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## John_Galt (Sep 12, 2010)

Buy a Ra clicky 140narrow. 

Bang for your buck, extremely efficient, durable, user-friendly light. Uses one CR123, can run for an hour plus at maximum output, programmable for strobe modes/not.


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## MiniLux (Sep 12, 2010)

etc said:


> This is the choice for the sheeple on the street.
> 
> 1. Inexpensive and affordable.
> 2. Runs on common cells.
> ...



Well, this might be true for the US, but over here in Europe point 1 doesn't appeal as the price for one of those LED-Mags will be far more than 50 Euros; even old incandescent Maglites are only available from about 35 Euros upwards 

That's why I prefer to stock a bunch of those cheap chinese multiple 5mm LED 3 AAA lights for such occasions :tinfoil:

MiniLux


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## manosteel (Sep 12, 2010)

I would go with a good single AA flashlight - single AA batteries are easier to find after a disaster.


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## tarponbill (Sep 12, 2010)

Flatline -- You have many wise good points. For instance, all things break, get lost you name it ... So if given the choices for real emergencies, I would rather have 4 AA mini-mags than one pricey Surefire ... you never know when you are going to loose, or break something, or worse yet like what happened in our area, when the dogs came out, it gets stolen ... So having good stuff, stocked in depth, makes sense for people with limited resources.

Having been through earthquakes, hurricanes, blizards, floods, you develop a respect for how quickly things go from bad, to really bad, even with the best of planning. MULTIPLES of supplies like lights, are better than a single best of breed. You might be surprised at what you get, and how useful it really is, with a card of 6 for $10 light at the big box store.

In my kit, the only exception is my weapon light, I mount a surefire 6PL on the shotgun. I have settled on a daily carry of a $30 Energize AA Lithium, a fleet of quality 2xAA lights is the core of my kit. The rest, radios, gps all rely on AA cells only because of availability. 

And lots of Eneloops and chargers.


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## vickers214 (Sep 12, 2010)

I have an old 1W luxeon in mine as the run time is superb, although i often wonder if i should have the latest moonlight runtime monster, but i i think i on off and no programing is a better idea in that situation


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## Monocrom (Sep 12, 2010)

davidt1 said:


> Here are the H501 and batteries on my belt. The Maratac and one AAA battery are kept in the wallet. They are neatly out of the way and always ready for any emergency that calls for lights.


 
Nice set up you have there.

Could you tell us where you got the pouches from?


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