# Home laser hair remover??



## Oznog (Sep 14, 2008)

Now getting advertised on the Web:
http://www.epilalaserhairremover.com/hair_removal_product.html

Grrrr... you mean the FDA says I can't spend $40 on a 200mW red from DX but I can spend $200 on one that can burn off hair?

Anybody got inside info? It says it's a long-wave red to better penetrate skin but stop on hair follicles. How long might that be? Is it a laser diode or something optically pumped with a flash tube? How many mw? Given that it burns off hair in a flash I assume it's gotta be a phenomenally high peak value.

Some debate over whether it's actually useful for removing hair or just burning little black spots in your skin. Some links from there said the one that came with their Epila they got off eBay came with instructions in broken Engrish which is hilarious. I wanna see a scan of that. Something like "Please do not the button with forcing time, or the fire lights it with darker burning" maybe?


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## PhotonWrangler (Sep 14, 2008)

There's something fishy about that site and company - 

1) Their "Contact Us" link goes to a third party
2) Their Site Map link is broken
3) Their Terms and Conditions ramble on and on about paying them, with one particularly onerous looking statement - 

*"DISTRICOR Canada retains title in the Goods and You take possession of the Goods as fiduciary agent and bailee of DISTRICOR Canada only"

*WTF?!! You pay them for it but they still own it?!!


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## Oznog (Sep 14, 2008)

An eBay auction says it's 808 nm. So it's an infrared.

Another auction says "laser diode" in the title but that could just be something the seller added. Oh wait- Epila website itself mentions diode.

One auction says "Meets Australian Specifications using a 0.5Mw red diode laser."
Well it's obviously not 0.5mW if one guy says it burned little black marks on his skin. But, note the "M" is in caps so that actually reads half a megawatt! Actually with a xenon flash-pumped crystal, that might technically be possible with a very brief pulse width, I don't know, it sure sounds unlikely. 

So, it looks like that protrustion there by the output lens is their interlock switch, that if it's not pressed into something it won't fire. Not exactly foolproof of course. At least it's not battery-powered so people could just walk around playing with it.

It seems unlikely the FDA would approve of this one...

Hey found the manual. "If you have hepatitis including herpes and cellulites we recommend treatment of these conditions before use."

Saw one of their websites referring to the "Laser Emition Button". "Is it permanently?" in the FAQ.

Cute pictures of baby wanting to play with the laser, and person staring into the output with a little "X" on the pic. Oh and "Do not use on pets". WTF? What, like you got one of those "hairless cats" and it mistakenly grew some hair?

They have another model sold as "Blotch Acne Hair Remover". 
Saw some description which seems to say the touch bar is not a safety interlock- just a spacer to set the distance from the skin. So anytime you press the button you get an immensely powerful IR burst.


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## Kenom (Sep 15, 2008)

based on the research I've done into this. There are mulitple wavelengths used for hair removal. The key being to make sure that the "pulsed" laser doesn't create heat in the pigment of the skin only in the hair folicle. The one laser system I was able to find that actually had the wavelength defined was this one
http://www.candelalaser.com/products/index.cfm?task=gentlelase

*[edit] Laser parameters that affect results*

Several wavelengths of laser energy have been used for hair removal, from visible light to near-infrared radiation. These lasers are usually defined by the lasing medium used to create the wavelength (measured in nanometers (nm)):

Argon: 488 or 514.5 nm (no longer used for hair removal)
Ruby: 694 nm (no longer used for hair removal; not safe on most skin types as it frequently produces side effects such as pigmentary changes (lightening or darkening of the skin) or worse for patients of all but white skin.[_citation needed_]
Alexandrite: 755 nm (most effective, but safest on light skin)
Pulsed diode array: 810 nm (for light to medium type skin)
Nd:YAG: 1064 nm (for darker skin; Yag is capable of treating all six skin colors. However, there is not sufficient evidence that this laser can produce effective long-term hair removal)
Pulsewidth is an important consideration. It has been observed in some published studies that longer pulse widths may be safer for darker skin. However, shorter wavelengths may be more effective in removing hair.
Spot size, or the width of the laser beam, affects treatment. Theoretically, the width of the ideal beam is about four times as wide as the target is deep. Hair removal lasers have a round spot about the size of your finger (8-18 mm). Larger spot sizes help make treatments faster and more effective.
Fluence or energy level is another important consideration. Fluence is measured in joules per square centimeter (J/cm²). It's important to get treated at high enough settings to cause permanent damage to the hair follicles.
Repetition rate is believed to have a cumulative effect, based on the concept of thermal relaxation time. Shooting two or three pulses at the same target with a specific delay between pulses can cause a slight improvement in the heating of an area. This may increase the "kill rate" for each treatment slightly.
Epidermal cooling has been determined to allow higher fluences and reduce pain and side effects, especially in darker skin. Four types of cooling have been developed:

Clear gel: usually chilled
Contact cooling: through a window cooled by circulating water or internal cryogen.
Cryogen spray: immediately before/after the laser pulse
Air cooling: forced cold air at -34 degrees C (Zimmer Cryo 5 unit)
Multiple treatments, usually 6-8, but as much as 12 depnding on the type of hair you have and skin color have been shown in numerous studies to provide long-term reduction of hair. Current parameters suggest a series of treatments spaced at 4-6 weeks apart for most areas, although the timing of treatments has still not been standardized.


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## Oznog (Sep 16, 2008)

How powerful might this thing be? The first thing you'd guess is that it's a toy along with the 5mw red laser pointer "baldness cures" or whatever. But no while people argue over whether it removes hair, apparently it can burn skin so there's real power there. A basic web search shows LD2K also tried for the home laser hair removal market, at like $1300 though. They list 0-2W. 2W seems a likely number to burn hair through skin over sub-second exposures!

808nm... there's just nothing "fun" you can do with that, is there? If it were a true red it's be interesting to pick up for $120 just for kicks. But IR is just all the danger none of the visual fun. I guess you could burn stuff with it. But it's surely only pulse-rated for 2W not 2W CW.


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## PhotonWrangler (Sep 22, 2008)

Ok, I snagged one of these. My first impression - If you have children in the house and you get one of these, keep it locked up the same way that you'd keep a gun locked away. There are no electrical interlocks or keys required to operate it, and a child could easily take out an eye with it. There are no children here so this is not an issue, but if we had them, I'd keep this unit in a safe.

The unit is powered by an external wall-wart rated at 9vdc @ 1.2 amps. The unit itself is about the size of a long electric razor. The body is made of plastic. There are pushbutton switches on the "business" side of the unit for on/off and power level, and the "zap" button is located on the side.

There is a protrusion next to the lens - it's meant for establishing the proper distance from the lens to the skin, and the diode is focused for this distance.

Per the instructions I tried it on a dark piece of paper first, and yep, it smolders after about a second. Be careful with this thing.

The device has three power settings - low, medium and high. Using an AM radio to check for PWM noise, I confirmed that the low setting emits a PWM whine around 100hz, and the higher power settings emit subsequently higher pitched whines, so they're using PWM to control the power. So far so good.

The beam spot is QUITE visible, and apparently there are two lasers in this unit - the specs mention a low-powered diode operating at 675nm - probably for aiming - and the 808nm diode, which is the high powered one. Again, be careful around this unit.

I tried it on my arm (after chilling it with cold water first). I didn't feel the "snapping rubber band" sensation at any of the power settings, so I set it on high and moved it around my arm slowly. The beam stays on for three seconds at a time, emitting a beep for each second elapsed. So I'm moving it around... beep...nothing...beep...still nothing...bee-OWW! I'd hit a small spot of pigmentation.

My skin is pale and semi-translucent which is probably why I didn't feel much sensation except for that dark spot. Your milage will probably vary. Did I mention being careful?

Another impression: it's pretty difficult to aim. You reanny don't now for sure where the spot is going to land until you turn it on.

My next step is to open the unit and see if I can identify the diode and the driver.

I _did _mention being careful, didn't I?


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## Sigman (Sep 23, 2008)

Is this made/sold by the same folks who distribute "[email protected]" for do-it-yourself laser eye surgery?


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## Oznog (Sep 24, 2008)

Come on, surely you can find a hair somewhere on somebody to sacrifice for the sake of science?

Hey what's the IR coherency like? Can it burn paper from a ways off, or does it have to be in contact due to a focal point and divergence? Is there a lens visible on the output?

I wonder how they got the IR and red diodes pointing from the same spot? I mean if you put them side-by-side, the red would be offset by 1/4" at least and that would put it in the wrong place. They could angle it so it crosses the IR beam path at the specified distance set by that spacer I guess.

How much did you end up picking up this toy for?


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## TMorita (Sep 24, 2008)

Oznog said:


> ...
> Please do not the button with forcing time, or the fire lights it with darker burning" maybe?


 
So YOU'RE the one that's been translating all these dang manuals!!!

Toshi


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## PhotonWrangler (Sep 24, 2008)

Oznog said:


> Hey what's the IR coherency like? Can it burn paper from a ways off, or does it have to be in contact due to a focal point and divergence? Is there a lens visible on the output?



There is a lens there, although I haven't gotten it open yet (probably some hidden screws under one of the labels) so I can't verify that it has two separate diodes. There is a distinct focal point that's a little less than a half-inch away from the lens. The energy seems to disperse quickly beyond the focal point.



> I wonder how they got the IR and red diodes pointing from the same spot? I mean if you put them side-by-side, the red would be offset by 1/4" at least and that would put it in the wrong place. They could angle it so it crosses the IR beam path at the specified distance set by that spacer I guess.


I would think so. If I ever get it apart without breaking it, I'll let you know exactly what's going on behind the lens.



> How much did you end up picking up this toy for?



Around $108 + shipping.


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## Oznog (Sep 25, 2008)

Ah I bet that's their attempt at a safety feature. If you're not at the proper focal length then it's diverging just like a really powerful IR LED so the light entering the eye at say 1 ft away can be far less depending on the degree of divergence.


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## PhotonWrangler (Sep 25, 2008)

Another pseudo safety feature is that you have to hold down the power button for 2 or 3 seconds to turn it on.

Update - I've confirmed with an NIR viewer that all of the optical energy is on continuously as the device beeps once per second, rather than pulsing the IR on during the beeps.


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## dr_lava (Sep 30, 2008)

That thing would not be good to use if it's continuous. That's not to say permanent laser home hair removal is impossible. The best method I have read is to first get a waxing, then rub carbon black into the follicles and wash the surface. The carbon black efficiently absorbs the IR energy and concentrates it at the target-the follicle rather than the skin. Use a high power pulsed laser to ablate the follicles. 
sound like something you want to try?


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## stogiez (Oct 10, 2008)

I have had the front of my neck and my entire beard lasered off. I went to a medispa for this.

There was a total of 11 sessions that covered the entire areas described.

And it hurt--A LOT! The technicians that did this stated that most women say it feels like a rubberband snapping on the face. Since most men have thicker facial hair than women, I say that it felt more like a hot lighter touching my face.

Did it work? It should be called laser hair reduction--not removal. I now only have to shave about once a week, instead of daily. But I am pleased with the results. No more ingrown whiskers, pimples, summer razor rash, getting hair caught on shirt collars on the weekends when I didn't shave. No more chewed up shirt collars, having to shave again in the evening, if going to a formal event, nicking yourself right before a formal event and having a spot of blood on the collar, etc.

Would I even think about using this product at home? Not a chance. Even at the medispa, I had a couple of spots of both hyper-pigmentation (dark spots) and hypo-pigmentation (light spots). That was my fault because I was not wearing sunscreen throughout the year to prevent skin tanning.

Leave something like this to people who use professional equipment, and use as part of their job.


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