# Lathe VS mill VS multi



## gadget_lover (Apr 18, 2004)

Hi Folks.

I've seen Unerv's workshop, and I've seen some of the neat work he does. I've drooled over the beautifully turned pieces that all of you have done.

I tend towards working on small things, like tailcaps, parts for locks and small lights. My mill is a hand held dremel tool and jeweler's files. My lathe is spinning the piece against a belt sander, grinder or knife edge.

I have the feeling that, like most of my tools, I don't need to be able to do the biggest pieces. I also know myself, and realize that I may tire of shaving away thousandths of an inch so I don't want to invest thousands of dollars.

Things I've wanted to do recently that would have really worked better with a lathe or mill;
1) Trim down some optics to fit a minimag 2aaa.
2) Create a coupler to join two aaa bodies.
3) Create a coupler to join a Dorcy Spider to a Mag D Cell head and reflector.
4) Create a slug 9mm in diameter by 2mm thick for mounting an LED
5) Create a custom tailcap.
6) Duplicate a part to fit a padlock.
7) Duplicate the threads on a cheap imported gadget.

I figure I'll work mainly in aluminum, brass and delrin, with occasional forays into mild steel.

My workshop is my garage, and there's precious little room left there. 

I came across this micro machine at the harbor freight site. It claims to be a combination mill+lathe. It doesn't have a large footprint or large capacity. It looks like it would handle shortening and rethreading a mini-mag. or re-tooling a small reflector. It's belt driven, with gears to change the pitch for threading. The harbor freight page is item 39743 micro mill-drill-lathe. They even have the manual on line as a PDF if you follow the green "download product manual" button at the bottom of the page.


I know this is compromise machine, and I know that I will encounter things that it can't do. What I'd like to know is if there appears to be any bad things about this unit that would keep it from performing.

Is spindle sped of 2800 RPM enough? I know MT1 is not as common as the others, but should I be able to find tools? Are there other gotchas listed there that I'm just not recognizing?


Many thanks,

Daniel


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## unnerv (Apr 18, 2004)

Hi Gadget would get a lathe at least as large mini-lathe. The 3 inch chuck it comes with is too small to rethread a minimag because the through hole in the chuck is too small. I was not able to single point minimags until I got a 4 inch 4 jaw. When you come by tomorrow please feel free to take a look at it. I am sure that any questions you have could probably be answered for sure by McGizmo if I don't have the answer.

Patrick


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## gadget_lover (Apr 18, 2004)

Thanks for the feedback. While I'm waiting, think I'll run over to the Fremont/newark store to see what they have in stock. 

I take it that you need to insert the light into the hole in the chuck in order to cut inside threads. Was that to allow clearance for the cutting tool on the other end? Was that needed for the shortened ones you made too?

I'll look forward to seeing first hand tomorrow.

Daniel


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## McGizmo (Apr 18, 2004)

gadget_lover,

One thing I have really come to appreciate is the fact that "size" is often not as important as "rigidity". To those who are thinking out of context, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Especially on small work, any allowance for the tool or piece to vary in position, realitive to eachother, is cause for potential failure if not catastrophy. This allowance vor variation can come from lack of rigidity or slop in lead screws or mechanical gaps in the securing of all components in the system. The rigidity of the part itself is part of the equation and often additional support is required via a steady rest or tail stock. .010" may be insignificant on a 3" target measure but it's 30% of a .030" target. 

I guess my point is that regardless of size of the equipment, one needs to match the precision of the part to the precision capabilities of the machine. 

When it comes to people, more tolerance is better. When it comes to parts, less tolerance is better. I have met great machinists who apply their tolerance levels to people unfortunately. Of course I have met great people who apply there open tolerance to work at hand; both have some problems as a result. I just know you wanted me to share this last pearl of an observation! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif


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## unnerv (Apr 19, 2004)

gadget, the problem is that you want the piece your are cutting or threading as close to the chuck as you can get to ensure you have as much rigidity as you can. If the tube of the light cannot pass though the chuck, the tool will need to be doing its work too far out and the tool will begin to push the work piece instead of cutting it.


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## gadget_lover (Apr 19, 2004)

Thanks Patrick. That clears that up. I was assuming that the work piece was normally just grabbed by the jaws of the chuck and held rigid by the center on the far end. I see that there is alot to learn about this aspect of metalworking.

I noticed the larger lathes at Harbor freight appear to have secondary supports that look like they clamp partway down the length of the piece. I would think that's not necessary with a 10 inch bed.

Back to drooling.

Daniel


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## unnerv (Apr 19, 2004)

You could do your work between centers and that will give you the rigidity to do work you need on the outside of the tube, the big problem comes when you go to rethread the tail cap since a center is now filling the end that you are trying to get a tool in. Whenever I work on a larger mag like a "D" I go over to my father house since he has a tool room sized lathe with a through hole of just over 1.5 inches. Makes working on the bigger stuff, cake. I have been trying to convince him he needs more garage space and to store his lathe at my house, but so far he has not bought it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## gadget_lover (Apr 22, 2004)

well, it's all your fault, Unnerv!!

I was happy with my tools till I saw what you were doing with yours. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I was, I think, most impressed by the AA to D adapter that you made. A work of art, surely.


I ordered my 7x10 harbor freight lathe today. It's on sale via the website for
only $329.

I won't mention the $300 of accessories and tools that I just had to have to go with it.

Thanks for the advice.

Daniel


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## tvodrd (Apr 22, 2004)

You have my sincerest sympathies, Daniel. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif As to the accessories and tools/cutters, you have just begun. Of course, then, you will have to _upgrade_. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

Larry


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## gadget_lover (Apr 22, 2004)

Thanks for the kind words, Larry, but it's really not a problem. I mean, I can handle it. Really. I don't need anything else. I'm sure that just the basics will do just fine. Upgrades? Upgrades?? It won't even be delivered for 10-14 days.

By the way, What's a knurling attachment?


Daniel
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Rothrandir (Apr 23, 2004)

a knurling attachment is what you use to knurl /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## gadget_lover (Apr 23, 2004)

ooooo. Gotta order one!


( I always thought knurling was a specialized type of threads done clockwise and reverse.)

Daniel


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## gadget_lover (May 1, 2004)

Thanks for the help folks.

My lathe arrived from Harbor Freight Thursday. The pretty red 7x10 model. The tools and accessories, of course, were shipped seperately. They still haven't arrived.

I set up the lathe anyway, then drove 20 miles to the nearest HF store to buy some blank tool bits. I bought the wrong set, of course. I should have bought 5/8 bits That did not stop me, as I was able to shim the 1/4 inch tool into position.

By 2 AM, I had a pile of aluminium shavings that I could be proud of. I removed the threads from a Dorcy AAA body and tapered it, then bored out the end of a second AAA body to match the taper I put on the first.

I think I now have the only Dorcy 2AAA 1 Led light on the block.

All that, and less than $500 spent! Woohooo!

Daniel


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## olephart (May 2, 2004)

Sorry I didn't get here in time to warn you. You have embarked on a course that is many times more financially burdensome than merely being a flashaholic.

Just kidding (not). It's a lot of fun and the word clever pops up a lot. It's all about figuring out how to do what you want with the tools you have or can make.

There are 2 books that will just blow you away if you can get them anymore: "The Amateur's Lathe", H. L. Sparey, Argus Books. And "Workholding In The Lathe", Tubal Cain, Number 15 in the Workshop Practice Series, Argus Books.

The knowledge, inspiration and examples of difficult operations on a small garage based lathe just can't be had elsewhere for the price.

Enjoy.


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## gadget_lover (May 2, 2004)

It's OK, Ole. I had enough warning from reading the other threads. I failed to take heed of the warnings, but that's another issue.

Thanks for the heads up on the books. I found mini-lathes.com and it has a wealth of information. I'll start looking for the books after I have more hands on time. I find it's easier to understand some concepts if I've worked with it a bit.


Daniel


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## gadget_lover (Sep 22, 2004)

Well, I took another step into oblivion today. I bought the Harbor Freight Micro mill/drill (item 47158). I really wanted the bigger one (the mini mill), but my garage was full and I have no place to put anything bigger. I also figured that I could use the MT2 accessories from my lathe's tailstock.

I checked the runout on the stock setup with a dial indicator. An end-mill in the chuck had only .002 runout. I did not try rotating the en-mill or otherwise try for a better reading. Is .002 close enough? The table was within .001 from the far left to the far right. 

The micro mill does not have a tilting column, so a tilting vice would be needed to do some angled cuts. The column attaches to the base with 4 bolts, so I imagine I could create a pivot that fits between the base and the column.... Someday.

I have only one piece left over aftre putting everything together. It looks like the handle to one of the wheels, but the end has no threads for the first inch and a half, then has about two threads, then bare the rest of the way up to the handle. I don't see this piece in the manual. Anyone have any idea what it might be?

I'm also wondering how I get to the drawbar so that I can change the chuck for a different one or an end mill holder. There's a tall cap on top, but I don't see a way to remove it.

So far I've used the mill to create some T-Nuts for the table. I must say I'm impressed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Well, it was my first time with a mill of any kind!

Daniel


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## McGizmo (Sep 22, 2004)

Cool Daniel! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## PAtwood (Sep 22, 2004)

Is this the $299 HF Mill? I have one and it has paid for itself several times over. A Bridgeport it ain't but it's still a handy little machine. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## unnerv (Sep 22, 2004)

Daniel, if the micro is anything like the mini, the "handle" without the threads is the spindle locking bar. You insert it into a hole in spindle and that allows you to lock it so you can turn the drawbar. The cap above the drawbar pulls off. Mine was really tight the first few times. Just get a good grip on and it should come off. Mine was not threaded or anything just a really tight press fit.

Oh and just a side note, if your has a high/low lever, make sure it is fully engaged in either position everytime you start. I had not moved it from the factory position when I got it and it probably was not fully seated into the low position. When hogging a fat cut, the lever moved itself between high and low and the gears disengaged. Since the spindle turned free I figured I stripped a gear. I started disassembling so I could order parts and found that all the gears were good still, just not engaged. So two hours wasted tearing down the machine to learn that I should check the lever each time. I have never had it move again on me but it is easy enough to check.

Have fun.


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## gadget_lover (Sep 22, 2004)

Thanks guys. That helps. I suspected the "handle" might be for locking the spindle. It's also just the right size for nudging things out of the tables T-slots. I'll keep in mind the high/low gear engagement.

The machine is the $299 model, but it was marked $279 at the store.

The "manual" that comes with it covers nothing. It has a lot of safety warnings and about 2 paragraphs about putting the knobs on the handwheels, but that's about it. There are lots of knobs and set screws and things that are not mentioned at all. I'm pretty sure that Yahoo has a mini mill group similar to the one for small lathes ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7x10minilathe ). I've read 2800 messages out of 121280 (yes, over 100 thousand messages) in the mini lathe group.

BTW, the mill came fully assembled except for the knobs. It took 5 minutes from unpacking to turning it on. The red grease was only on exposed metal surfaces, so it was much easier to clean than my mini lathe. It comes with 4 t-nuts drill for 6mm. 1.0 pitch and a couple of wrenches. No screws or hold-down clamps.

Again, Thanks

Daniel


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## unnerv (Sep 22, 2004)

Your lucky, I spent over two hours cleaning the packing grease off my mill, it was everywhere.

Mini-lathe.com has a good mill section. It is mostly about the mini-mill, but I am sure a lot of it applies.

The counter part to the mini-lathe yahoo group for mills is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mini-mill/


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## gadget_lover (Oct 26, 2004)

Now that I have the micro mill I'm using the MT2 end mill holders from my Lathe in the mill too. I also noticed that the MT2 3 jaw chuck from my lathe's tailstock will fit in the mill's head. This 2 inch chuck was sold at HF for under 10 dollars. 

So I started thinking... I could use this as a lathe of sorts in a pinch. I can put a small piece in the chuck and use a lathe bit attached to a vice on the table to cut it. The vice would act as a toolpost. I'll need to set up a different drawbar to hold it tight.

Are vertical lathes used much? Is there a reason that horizontal is more common? A search for "vertical lathe" showed quite a few hits.

Daniel


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## idleprocess (Oct 31, 2004)

It seeems that most workpieces in machining are held horizontally - possibly a reason why there are no verical lathes.

It's also easier to move your tool horizontally rather than vertically.

I wish I could put it into words, but I can't think of why you'd want a vertical lathe. If you were working on a long piece of stock, it would be cumbersome. You'd also have to fight gravity needlessly.


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## gadget_lover (Oct 31, 2004)

Point taken.

I found a web site after posting the previous message that sang the praises of vertical lathes. The gist of their (claimed) advantage was:

1) the swarf will fall away from the tool, making cleaner cuts and easier chip removal.

2) the ability to move things on assembly line conveyor belts. Move the work under the lathe, secure in chuck, lift into position, cut and put back on the belt without having to manually pick up the piece.

Of course, having a CNC rig makes some of that cutting more practical. I would not want to look up into a piece while cutting inside it.

Daniel


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## KC2IXE (Oct 31, 2004)

Vertical lathes DO exist - they are USUALLY used for LARGE diameter, short lenght work. You know - thing like old steam locomotive drivers and the like. Freight car wheels are usually done horizontally


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