# Why the maglite hate?



## Lumenshroom (Feb 20, 2010)

It just comes off as a bit of bandwagoning to me. Maglites are sturdy, simple lights that run off of easy-to-find batteries and I find myself using them in certain situations where a "higher-end" light wouldn't fare as well.

Plus Mr. Malkoff's dropins are amazing.


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## Kiessling (Feb 20, 2010)

It has nothing to do with the lights, and neither with Mr. Malkoff.

It is their business practices.

If this hatred is justified or not and if it is expressed in an adequate manner, I leave to you to decide for yourself. 


The lights themselves are highly regarded as "modder fodder" and laughed at for the old tech in stock form.

bernie


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## tk40 (Feb 20, 2010)

Probably because Maglite is like a car that gets you from point A to B while constantly reminding you that it could go faster, if only...(fill in the blanks)


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Feb 20, 2010)

Who hates Maglites? I've still got my first 4D from 1981. Don't use it much now because I prefer cool white of my leds but I'd never ever get rid of it. We've been through too much together.


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## flashfiend (Feb 20, 2010)

Just bought a couple of customized Mags. As an output junkie, I'd never keep them in stock form though.


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## kramer5150 (Feb 20, 2010)

Great for mods, but stock they stink.


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## mcnair55 (Feb 20, 2010)

I do not hate Maglites as my first decent torch was a Maglite and cost me about £25 in the early 1980,s a lot of money in those days for a torch but would never buy one these days as they are living in the past and far better out there for the £/$.

Bit like Woolworth in the UK either keep up with the times or time will see the demise of certain brands who live on past success.

Imagine if Maglite restyled the body work and banged a really decent chip in there we would be knocking the door down to own one.I was given one this last week as a gift,I would have refused it but no way wanted to hurt the feelings of the giver and it was given because I collect but I have placed it in a drawer as I will never use it.


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## joshconsulting (Feb 20, 2010)

Because they are dim, poorly built, poorly finished and easily broken with short runtime and horrible beam patterns.


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## angelofwar (Feb 20, 2010)

No hate here...just don't like them (nearly) as much as my SF's. I have 6 or 7 mags, but my favourite is my Woodland Camo 3-D with soda lime lens and a mag led...still want too get a malkoff. They make great tire checkers too...:naughty:. If mag had only designed some kind of anti-roll mechanism into there lights (not the slip-on one), they would have gotten it right. Great lights in general, as long as you don't have the stcok krypton bulbs.


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## LEDninja (Feb 20, 2010)

Maglite has this nasty habit of suing any new flashlight company that comes along putting them out of business. This includes many respected CPF members companies including the original Arc.

They sued Arc not on any patent infringement but on copyright - Arc had put 'Arc' on the back of the head. Maglite had copyrighted 'flashlight company name on the flashlight head'.
Maglite also copyrighted the shape of the back of the head follows the shape of the reflector.
Notice how flashlight names/models are usually on the body and the back of the head of most flashlights are not curved?
Patents expire. Copyrights do not.

Maglite will sue even if they have no grounds, figuring the small startups have no funds for lawyers and will fold rather than go bankrupt.


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## tk40 (Feb 20, 2010)

LEDninja said:


> Maglite has this nasty habit of suing any new flashlight company that comes along putting them out of business. This includes many respected CPF members companies including the original Arc.
> 
> They sued Arc not on any patent infringement but on copyright - Arc had put 'Arc' on the back of the head. Maglite had copyrighted 'flashlight company name on the flashlight head'.
> Maglite also copyrighted the shape of the back of the head follows the shape of the reflector.
> ...



Wow, excellent point. I wasn't aware. Thanks for the info....I now have to reconsider how I think of Maglite :sick2: (and below is a pic illustrating my thoughts on your argument)


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## Olef (Feb 20, 2010)

LEDninja said:


> Maglite has this nasty habit of suing any new flashlight company that comes along putting them out of business. This includes many respected CPF members companies including the original Arc.
> 
> They sued Arc not on any patent infringement but on copyright - Arc had put 'Arc' on the back of the head. Maglite had copyrighted 'flashlight company name on the flashlight head'.
> Maglite also copyrighted the shape of the back of the head follows the shape of the reflector.
> ...



That's outrageous. Certainly changes my view of the company. :shakehead

Olef


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## tk40 (Feb 20, 2010)

Olef said:


> That's outrageous. Certainly changes my view of the company. :shakehead
> 
> Olef



Here's what I'd like to add. Maglite's products are not the same as Maglite "the company", or Maglite "the lawyers" (corporate lawyers like to preserve their jobs by proving their vigilance).

I like Maglite lights. If I ever buy another one from Radioshack I'll remember to talk to the salesman about Maglite's patent trolls (which is what LEDninja was pointing out). But hating a product is akin to hating its engineers.


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## Ragiska (Feb 20, 2010)

tk40 said:


> Here's what I'd like to add. *Maglite's products are not the same as Maglite "the company", or Maglite "the lawyers"* (corporate lawyers like to preserve their jobs by proving their vigilance).
> 
> I like Maglite lights. If I ever buy another one from Radioshack I'll remember to talk to the salesman about Maglite's patent trolls (which is what LEDninja was pointing out). But hating a product is akin to hating its engineers.



but supporting a company is supporting how the company operates, including any unethical business practices which the company employs to increase sales of it's products.

if al quada hired the best engineers to manufacture a magnificent flashlight and sold it for an unbelievably good price, would you purchase the flashlight anyhow "because al quads's products are not the same as al quada "the company"?


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## andyw513 (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm not exactly sure where I will stand on this issue. I like my Mags, I own three, but I think that they are sort of "low tech" from an electronic standpoint. I still find myself using them quite regular, however, as far as fixing leaks and water lines go, I keep them under the bed quite a bit.

*LEDninja* made a point that I was unaware of, and, if ethics enter the picture, it's almost tempting to cease future purchases of the light. All this time I thought the company was a simple business, and not an intricate network of suits that fault-find for their paychecks.


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## Olef (Feb 20, 2010)

I too like Maglites and have several. But buying a product supports the company that makes it - not just its engineers - and it pays for its lawyers. If they behave badly then the easiest way to stop them is to 'vote with your feet' and stop buying from them. I will certainly look into this further before handing them any more of my hard earned.

Compared to the quality of lights out there now they are only fit for mod hosts anyway 

Olef


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## sabre7 (Feb 20, 2010)

Mag couldn't care less about what anybody associated with CPF thinks, and even less about whether anybody here ever buys their flashlights. 

They do not need or want opinions or business from this comparatively tiny niche market. They also know they will continue to sell a gazillion lights regardless of whether anyone here likes them or not.


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## Larbo (Feb 20, 2010)

I would not say I hate mine but...

I cant believe at one time I thought this thing was bright
The beam looks terrible, and the warm color is enough to make me sick, this happened a few months ago after I blew the dust off them and fired em up.
Back to the corner they go. :thumbsdow


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## tk40 (Feb 20, 2010)

Ragiska said:


> if al quada hired the best engineers to manufacture a magnificent flashlight and sold it for an unbelievably good price, would you purchase the flashlight anyhow "because al quads's products are not the same as al quada "the company"?



You are using an unrealistic example to make an argument. If I play your game maybe I should bring to your attention that Al Queda was funded by US and Arab money. Maybe you should cease to live in the US altogether? Or how about not paying taxes anymore because they are being used to sponsor a war on innocent people? When people say stuff like "It begs the question" or have a propensity to bring irrelevant examples into play it makes me cringe.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 20, 2010)

Lumenshroom said:


> It just comes off as a bit of bandwagoning to me. Maglites are sturdy, simple lights that run off of easy-to-find batteries and I find myself using them in certain situations where a "higher-end" light wouldn't fare as well.


I don't think Maglites are hated around here so much as it's readily acknowledged that other manufacturers have left Maglite in the dust in terms of technology and features, but they have gotten a lot of respect for the Mini Maglite LED Multimode and the new XL100.

Also, can't find anything about Maglite suing Arc in a Google search. Anybody have any information?


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## RTTR (Feb 20, 2010)

I have nothing against Maglite myself, I have a 2xAA LED in my car as a backup, 3D LED in the house as well as two more 3D incandescent laying around for the times of power outage or just general grab situations.

The LED ones imo are a pretty poor value for their performance, none of them have very good beam quality or brightness period, but they are built pretty good and you can also use them as weapons heh.


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## burntoshine (Feb 20, 2010)

years ago, before i knew much about flashlights, i was looking for a small LED flashlight to carry in my pocket. i wrote maglite two nice emails complimenting them on their products and asking them if they had plans for a LED version of the solitaire. both emails went unanswered and that's when i began my search elsewhere for a small pocketable LED light to carry with me. that's how i discovered fenix and then CPF.

i once wrote nitecore an email and got a response within 24 hours. there are other companies that make flashlights besides maglite. they shouldn't ignore their customers. other companies make more innovative and better overall products with better customer correspondence.

i now carry a Liteflux LF2XT and see no reason to give maglite my money ever again. they're way behind the curve and their recent baby-step implementations are barely worth noticing.

i'm very much glad maglite was so stubborn to innovate and ignored my questions.


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## FlashInThePan (Feb 20, 2010)

Strictly from a product point of view, I can't really fault Maglite's flashlights: they're reasonably sturdy, widely available, and pretty darn easy to operate. Sure they suffer from some of the problems that other incans deal with: poor battery life, ugly beams, etc. But those problems are based on the _technology_ that Mag uses - not the company itself. (And MagLite's already improved by switching to LEDs in their new lights.) Simply put, for an overwhelmingly large portion of the population that just wants an inexpensive, sturdy, and easy to use light, Maglites are fine. 

As for their business practices, I've never liked it when companies rely on questionable interpretations of their intellectual property rights as a way to tie up a competitor's resources and force them out of business. But it's not entirely clear to me that Maglite's actually doing this. After all, if the US Patent and Trademark office granted them a legitimate patent or trademark - a process that requires Maglite to endure a fairly lengthy review process - why are we faulting Maglite for enforcing this right? After all, our country specifically granted them this right. At that point, it seems to me that a person's beef should be with the law (or agency) that saw fit to grant Maglite this patent....and not with Maglite itself. After all, MagLite's only protecting something that they're legally entitled to protect.

Also, remember that whenever you sue someone for patent infringement, one of their potential defenses is to claim that the patent is invalid. In other words, every time you sue to enforce your patent, you're taking a risk that the court will turn around and find that your patent shouldn't actually have been granted in the first place! That's a huge risk, and most smart attorneys will carefully evaluate their client's patent and consider this possibility before deciding whether to sue a competitor for "infringement."

So if Maglite's suing for legitimate infringement of legitimate patents, then it's no surprise that they're able to win. And if they're suing on patents that should never have been granted in the first place, the courts can take care of that and invalidate the patent - leaving a competitor free to use that "invention." I often hear people claim that MagLite sues other companies without any basis (just to put them out of business). However, I find it hard to believe that _any_ successful company (not just Maglite) would try this tactic too often: there are a number of potential sanctions (for both the company and its attorneys) that help deter and punish such actions. 

Just my two cents.

- FITP


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## Ragiska (Feb 20, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> Also, can't find anything about Maglite suing Arc in a Google search. Anybody have any information?



https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/60656


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## 289 (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't hate them but after hanging out here and seeing what other flashlights are available I'll never buy another (I have 2 old ones)

As mentioned, they are dim, not particularly well constructed, not visually appealing, and have terrible beam patterns.


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## old4570 (Feb 20, 2010)

Yeah 


Imagine owning a car that only gave you 30 minutes between fuel pumps and had 80HP or less and a one speed gear box and was large and heavy . 
:thinking:


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## ekengle (Feb 20, 2010)

sabre7 said:


> Mag couldn't care less about what anybody associated with CPF thinks, and even less about whether anybody here ever buys their flashlights.
> 
> They do not need or want opinions or business from this comparatively tiny niche market. They also know they will continue to sell a gazillion lights regardless of whether anyone here likes them or not.



This pretty much sums it up.



> i once wrote nitecore an email and got a response within 24 hours. there are other companies that make flashlights besides maglite. *they shouldn't ignore their customers.* other companies make more innovative and better overall products with better customer correspondence.


Maglight does not see you as a customer. They see Wal-mart, Target, Meijer, etc as customers. With such an inferior product that is how they make their money. That and name recognition.


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## Jash (Feb 20, 2010)

Maglites are good for two things: Easy modding and runtime. 

That's why I have a couple. Neither are stock. Buying a maglite is like buying a Hummer with a 1.6 litre petrol 4 cylinder engine.

If Maglite really wanted to rule supreme ever again, they would be done with all the cheap drop-ins and build something phenominal. Sadly, this won't happen. 

Reminds me of a small company called General Motors who lost most of their market share to overseas companies that saw the need for better cars with smaller engines capable of still being able to do 0-100 (that would be kph.) in less than 10 seconds.


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## ghostguy6 (Feb 20, 2010)

The only mags I own are now my loaner or abuser lights. I still carry one 3D when on night patrols more so as a weapon if need be. I do sometimes use it with a traffic wand when directing traffic.

I too wrote [email protected] some emails and they went unanswered. If a company will not stand behind their products I will not purchase them. To me Mag only has one advantage, they make cheap hosts for this who want to mod them.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 20, 2010)

Ragiska said:


> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/60656


Not a lot of info there other than some vague "Was this Maglite's fault?" questions. Looks like even Gransee wasn't playing the blame game as it seems he took full responsibility for the company's failure.


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## Big_Ed (Feb 20, 2010)

I own more Mags than any other type of light. I think Mags are really good lights, well built, lifetime warranty, reasonably priced, and made in USA. And as far as not having any recent innovations, WRONG! What about the XL100? I don't know of any other light that has a UI like that. Sounds like they are leading the pack with their innovative UI. I just wonder how long before some Chinese clones (of the UI, at least) come along. 
Some people just will continue to not like them no matter what features their lights have. To each their own. Mags are winners in my book.


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## Big_Ed (Feb 20, 2010)

ghostguy6 said:


> I too wrote [email protected] some emails and they went unanswered. If a company will not stand behind their products I will not purchase them.



They probably get thousands of emails a day. Try calling them instead, or locating one of their service centers. They have a lifetime guarantee.


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## Woods Walker (Feb 20, 2010)

I kinda like them too given the cost.


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## MustardMan (Feb 20, 2010)

I've hung onto a few of them that I bought over a decade ago, but I won't really use them in their current form. Basically keeping them for something to mod when I get the itch one day.

The 5D should be a fun platform to make something cool out of


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## kramer5150 (Feb 20, 2010)

LEDninja said:


> _*Maglite will sue even if they have no grounds, figuring the small startups have no funds for lawyers and will fold rather than go bankrupt.*_



I was unaware of this. Thanks for the history. I have 3-4 mags, but will not be purchasing any more. I can't possibly support a company such as this.


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## wingnut86 (Feb 20, 2010)

I happen to like Maglites. They are extremely well built, good price, reliable, good runtime, easy to modify, available locally (big + in my book), excellent warranty, made in the USA, variety of colors, many after market possibilities...I could go on and on.

How many times is the word Donate used in this timeline??? They've donated more lights and money than many manufactures have sold and made respectively...


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## Surnia (Feb 20, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> Not a lot of info there other than some vague "Was this Maglite's fault?" questions. Looks like even Gransee wasn't playing the blame game as it seems he took full responsibility for the company's failure.




I was surprised at that too, I remember a similar incident but in a completely different product field (the paintball scene where WGP under K2 ownership stomped out a very promising competitor.. for "intellectual property" they didn't even own or create)... small digging led me to this thread here from 2003 on the maglite thing.

I'll be looking at maglites a little differently from now on... although I hope the company's a bit better these days.


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## Ragiska (Feb 20, 2010)

kramer5150 said:


> I was unaware of this. Thanks for the history. I have 3-4 mags, but will not be purchasing any more. I can't possibly support a company such as this.



you may want to add surefire and eagletac to that list also.


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## LEDninja (Feb 20, 2010)

They actually like to boast about it.

From
http://www.maglite.com/company_news.asp



Mag Defends Intellectual Property Rights said:


> It is Mag's worldwide policy to act decisively against illicit product copying and other infringements of its intellectual property rights. Over the years Mag has achieved many multimillion-dollar court victories and large-scale customs seizures. In addition, Mag has settled hundreds of infringement claims out of court, generally with the infringer agreeing not only to desist but also to pay compensation. Here are some examples of Mag's recent activities in defense of its IP rights:
> 
> After winning a rare kind of flashlight design protection in Japan, Mag persuaded the Osaka District Court to prohibit Asahi Electric Corporation from making and selling "look-alikes" of the MINI MAGLITE® flashlight and to order Asahi's flashlight copies destroyed.
> 
> ...


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## johnny3073 (Feb 20, 2010)

It's not so much "hate", as it is envy.

Not everyone that owns a $25K Rolex, spends time on high end watch boards, and enjoys telling everyone that will listen how cool their uber high end work of art is will be happy singing the praises of a $50 Timex.

When MagLite came out with their lights they didn't copy or imitate anyone, their lights were original...and best of all they were the best mass produced light in the world. I remember when they came out, and for their day they were CRAZY expensive. When a brand new 2xC/D "el cheapo" was $2.50, $25 for a flashlight was outrageous money.

For the average person a $25 MagLite that will last them a lifetime is plenty. There are very, very few people that will spend $50-$75 on a 1AA or even a 2AA when they can buy 2-3 rock solid, time tested, USA lifetime warranty lights that run on C or D cells. Don't even bring up C123s or 18650s, 98% of consumers wouldn't even know where to find the batteries. Think about it for a minute. If you told the average John Q. Citizen how much money you had tied up in your lights, they would look at you like you were insane (and they may have a point).

The fact is: MagLite isn't the 800# gorilla in the room, they're the 40 ton blue whale in the street. MagLite probably sells more lights on their worst day of the year than all the other "good" light makers (including SF) could ever dream to sell all year--combined.

For what it is, a MagLite is a great product and their sales figures prove it. The same can be said for the lowly Timex...just because it's inexpensive doesn't mean it's junk. It's not for everyone, especially lumen crazed flashaholics, but for exactly what it is it may be the best hand held illumination tool invented since the flaming stick.

Now back to the regularly scheduled hate-a-thon.. :thumbsup:


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## kramer5150 (Feb 20, 2010)

Ragiska said:


> you may want to add surefire and eagletac to that list also.



No. Surefires battle against pentagonlight was over the _patented _design of the Z41, and Pentagon's copying of that design.

SF does not have MAGs history of suing even if they have no grounds.


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## sabre7 (Feb 20, 2010)

johnny3073 said:


> It's not so much "hate", as it is envy.
> 
> Not everyone that owns a $25K Rolex, spends time on high end watch boards, and enjoys telling everyone that will listen how cool their uber high end work of art is will be happy singing the praises of a $50 Timex.
> 
> ...



+1! Very well said and very true!!! :twothumbs


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## joshconsulting (Feb 20, 2010)

johnny3073 said:


> It's not so much "hate", as it is envy.
> 
> Not everyone that owns a $25K Rolex, spends time on high end watch boards, and enjoys telling everyone that will listen how cool their uber high end work of art is will be happy singing the praises of a $50 Timex.
> 
> ...


My DX K-106 is 5 times brighter then a maglight 3\4 C\D, and has a longer battery life on low. It has a far superior finish to my maglights, which is flaking off within months. It doesn't need a spare bulb in case it gets dropped, I never have leaking problems, and I got a set of rechargeables and charger for less then the maglight - to say nothing of replacement costs.

No, it doesn't have a lifetime warranty like Maglights, but I can buy several for the same cost and I highly doubt they'll fail - my K-106 has been through some pretty rough accidents and is almost literally without a scratch. My maglight lived in my trunk a few months and came out with a chipped, peeling finish, broken bulb, and leaking batteries.

Oh, and did I mention that the K-106 is 20 times lighter (literally) and dozens of times smaller then the maglight? I can slip it in my pocket and notice it less then my phone, but the maglight is a pain to lug around for an hour or two, to say nothing of all day. I introduced my friend (an electrician) to one, and he thinks of it as the holy grail of lights compared to his 2xAA minimag.

Yes, I've had quality lights. Yes, I just sold a DBS with SST-50 and a L2P with SST-50. But the K-106 is my favorite light of all, and stands out as a light I can recommend to friends with no misgivings. I've seen 5 ordered from DX, and all are top notch quality - a little Nyogel on the threads and they're waterproof and good to go.


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## choppers (Feb 21, 2010)

Stock Maglites are horrible in my opinion but they make great hosts for modding. All of the maglites I own have been modded in some way. All of the Maglites I give away as gifts have been modded in some fashion. Great host, but not very good stock.


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Feb 21, 2010)

FlashInThePan said:


> After all, if the US Patent and Trademark office granted them a legitimate patent or trademark - a process that requires Maglite to endure a fairly lengthy review process - why are we faulting Maglite for enforcing this right? After all, our country specifically granted them this right. At that point, it seems to me that a person's beef should be with the law (or agency) that saw fit to grant Maglite this patent....and not with Maglite itself. After all, MagLite's only protecting something that they're legally entitled to protect.


 
+1

Arc had their day in court, and they lost.


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## johnny3073 (Feb 21, 2010)

joshconsulting said:


> My DX K-106 is 5 times brighter then a maglight 3\4 C\D, and has a longer battery life on low. It has a far superior finish to my maglights, which is flaking off within months. It doesn't need a spare bulb in case it gets dropped, I never have leaking problems, and I got a set of rechargeables and charger for less then the maglight - to say nothing of replacement costs.
> 
> No, it doesn't have a lifetime warranty like Maglights, but I can buy several for the same cost and I highly doubt they'll fail - my K-106 has been through some pretty rough accidents and is almost literally without a scratch. My maglight lived in my trunk a few months and came out with a chipped, peeling finish, broken bulb, and leaking batteries.
> 
> ...


 
I think it's wonderful that you are happy with your DX light. I'm sure that there are probably hundreds of other happy Akoray K-106 owners out there that share your enthusiasm.

We might need to contact MagLite directly and request that they contact a hundred million or so of their past customers and let them know that their junk lights won't even last "a few months" in the lightest of service duty.


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## joshconsulting (Feb 21, 2010)

johnny3073 said:


> I think it's wonderful that you are happy with your DX light. I'm sure that there are probably hundreds of other happy Akoray K-106 owners out there that share your enthusiasm.
> 
> We might need to contact MagLite directly and request that they contact a hundred million or so of their past customers and let them know that their junk lights won't even last "a few months" in the lightest of service duty.



:thumbsdow
Quote the point where I said they only lasted a few months, and I'll eat my words. Chipped finishes, a well documented maglight problem, doesn't mean your light ceases to function. It just means it scratches more easily, is possibly exposed to corrosion in a harsh environment, and looks worse. The bulb problem is solved in the new LED models but still exists in the old incandescents - try a drop test from a few meters onto concrete a few times with a maglight, and I guarantee it will fail in a couple of falls while the K-106 won't suffer a bit (both have happened to me). There's a reason you can buy bulb packs and spare bulbs are included in the tailcap. And maglights in stock form are rarely watertight, whereas I've used my K-106 while swimming with no adverse effects - it's even survived a few wash cycles.

Overall, the vaunted 'durable' maglight is indeed a tough light, especially in its LED form, but it has some weaknesses to the point that most decently-manufactured lights will survive more then maglights.

Battery leakage is partially my fault and partially Duracells, it's a fact of life with alkaline batteries, not with maglights, and I was simply pointing out that 14500s did not suffer from that problem.


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## Black Rose (Feb 21, 2010)

johnny3073 said:


> For what it is, a MagLite is a great product and their sales figures prove it. The same can be said for the lowly Timex...just because it's inexpensive doesn't mean it's junk.


That's an interesting analogy and one I can relate to.

We recently brought in a consultant to assist with our workload.

He noticed the watch I was wearing and commented that he hadn't seen one like it in ages. 
The watch in question is a Timex Ironman from the pre Indiglo days. I bought it new in 1991.


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## johnny3073 (Feb 21, 2010)

joshconsulting said:


> :thumbsdow
> Quote the point where I said they only lasted a few months, and I'll eat my words.





> Originally Posted by *joshconsulting: *My maglight lived in my trunk a few months and came out with a chipped, peeling finish, *broken bulb, and leaking batteries*.


 
Salt & pepper, or can your lights function with broken bulbs and leaking batteries??



> Originally Posted by *joshconsulting:* The bulb problem is solved in the new LED models but still exists in the old incandescents - try a drop test from a few meters onto concrete a few times with a maglight, and I guarantee it will fail in a couple of falls while the K-106 won't suffer a bit (both have happened to me). There's a reason you can buy bulb packs and spare bulbs are included in the tailcap.


 
The reason you will have no bulb failure in your K-106 is because it's an LED light and it doesn't have a bulb. Keep "drop testing" your DX light and it will suffer the same effect in time. Incandescent bulb breakage is an incandescent bulb weakness, and has nothing to do with any flashlight...not even the evil MagLite.

The thread topic is "Why the maglite hate?", not "Why is your ____ light better than a maglite?". I'm truly glad you are happy with your favorite light. I also have lights that I consider superior to Maglite's design. It just doesn't mean that I "hate" them like many others do.


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## ghostguy6 (Feb 21, 2010)

johnny3073 said:


> Salt & pepper, or can your lights function with broken bulbs and leaking batteries??
> 
> 
> 
> The reason you will have no bulb failure in your K-106 is because it's an LED light and it doesn't have a bulb. Keep "drop testing" your DX light and it will suffer the same effect in time. Incandescent bulb breakage is an incandescent bulb weakness, and has nothing to do with any flashlight...not even the evil MagLite.


 
Before I started getting into better flashlights I dropped several 2D's. I dont think 1 filament got broken, however the switches were damaged. I had one I could shake and it would turn on and off. I got a replacement and right out of the packaging it didnt work. That replacement for the replacment had a **** poor spring that punctured a cell. In one summer I went though 4. I bothered to spend the cash on the mag led upgrades only to find out they still had no output. For the average consumer mags may be acceptable as is but for many industial appications and us flashohlics mags are out dated.


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## joshconsulting (Feb 21, 2010)

johnny3073 said:


> Salt & pepper, or can your lights function with broken bulbs





joshconsulting said:


> The bulb problem is solved in the new LED models but still exists in the old incandescents


Are you denying that the incandescent bulbs break easily, or agreeing with me that the newer LEDs solve the problem while it remains in the still-common older ones? I am simply making a point that for the same price as a Maglight, you can obtain a light of a different brand that is superior in essentially every way.



johnny3073 said:


> and leaking batteries??





joshconsulting said:


> it's a fact of life with alkaline batteries, *not* with maglights


Again, I don't understand - are you saying that Maglights don't have issues with leaking batteries? My argument is that Maglights retain this problem, while newer lights based on a different battery design do not - hence why I dislike maglights.



> Incandescent bulb breakage is an incandescent bulb weakness, and has nothing to do with any flashlight...not even the evil MagLite.


I am well aware of this. My point is that the old maglights, still bought and used frequently today have problems that do not exist in LED lights. I've seen at least a dozen people with maglights, and only 2 had LEDs, but most had replaced the incandescant bulb at least once. There's a reason my local hardware store still has a good stock of replacement bulbs - the incandescent design still remains popular, especially for minimags - the incandescents are sold as frequently or more so then the LED in my area, people simply don't understand the difference. I've seen 3 minimags given away as Christmas presents, all incandescents.

The simple fact that maglight continues to market and sell decades old inferior designs to people not educated enough to know the difference makes me dislike them as a company. From a business standpoint, it makes sense - people are used to the bulbs breaking on occasion, so they aren't likely to complain or dislike the lights for it, and I'm sure Maglight does a decent buisness selling bulbs on the side. But there's no two ways about it - these problems make the lights far inferior to newer and better-designed similarly priced lights not carrying the maglight name.



> The thread topic is "Why the maglite hate?", not "Why is your ____ light better than a maglite?"


The thread topic is "Why the maglight hate?", not "Why do you hate maglites?" I don't personally hate them. I simply find that they offer a poor value in light of their inferior design and comparable price to a far superior 'current-gen' light. I can see how that, in addition to their underhanded buisness practices, could cause some to hate them.

I've personally bought and own several maglights which have seen occasional use, and they do a fair job. Most were received or given as gifts; those who don't know any better appreciate them.

But there's no mistaking the fact that they are exploiting the ignorance of the general public in the area of flashlights to sell an inferior product at a higher price point, with the end result being an undesirable flashlight. That is why I dislike them as a company.



> I'm truly glad you are happy with your favorite light. I also have lights that I consider superior to Maglite's design. It just doesn't mean that I "hate" them like many others do.


I agree, I don't 'hate' them - it's a capatilist society, and they are welcome to turn a profit as best they see fit. But I don't find their offerings attractive, and few people would if they were aware of more appealing lights out there. Unfortunately, maglight's stranglehold on the mid to low end consumer light market has stifled competition, resulting in millions of people owning an inferior, overpriced product. Again, that is why I and others dislike them.


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## johnny3073 (Feb 21, 2010)

joshconsulting said:


> ..snip...


 
Statements like: "not educated" and "ignorant" consumers smack of an elitest arrogance that out shines any instrument of illumination, including the Sun.

MagLite markets their product to regular people (99.9% of the population) that want exactly what they can deliver. A simple utility tool that will illuminate.

*Made in the USA - check
*No BS USA Lifetime Warranty - check
*Very easy to obtain replacement parts - check
*Available for immediate on-site purchase 24/7/365 - check
*Runs on simple alkalines available ANYWHERE - check
*Rugged, reliable, time tested & proven - check
*Very reasonable cost - check 

MagLite doesn't manufacture or market to flashaholics. They never have, and they never will. Why? Because it's not their business model. MagLite controls their piece of the market because they give their customers what they want, not what you think people need.

People aren't uneducated, ignorant, or what ever else you care to call them just because they look for something very different in a light than you.

If you think you can establish a better company and produce a better product, there's certainly no one standing in your way. After you put MagLite out of business, I'll even be one of your customers.


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## joshconsulting (Feb 21, 2010)

> Statements like: "not educated" and "ignorant" consumers smack of an elitest arrogance that out shines any instrument of illumination, including the Sun.
> 
> People aren't uneducated, ignorant, or what ever else you care to call them just because they look for something very different in a light than you.


I'm sorry you misinterpreted me. My point, quite simply, is that the general American public knows (and cares) considerably less then the average CPFer on the subject of flashlights.



> MagLite markets their product to regular people (99.9% of the population) that want exactly what they can deliver. A simple utility tool that will illuminate.


I have not yet found a person who doesn't appreciate a tool more effective in every way then the one it replaces. A flashlight superior in virtually every way will always win in a direct comparison. My point is that the public WOULD care about, say, 200 lummens vs. 40, or 2 hours of runtime vs. 20 - they simply haven't bothered learning about better tools, as they may not be aware of their existence or simply find the research not worth the effort. Maglight has made a business catering to people apathetic to the quality and usefulness of their flashlights, making them widely-used by the vast majority, who don't particularly care, and widely-disliked by the small minority that do care (AKA CPF).



> *Made in the USA - check


Sadly, most people would prefer to save money for themselves rather then slighting benefiting the national as a whole. There are a few who are willing to pay the high markup for 'made in the usa', but if there is a clear choice between an inferior USA made product and a superior foreign made, people will generally make the decision to benefit themselves at a small cost to our economy. See "tragedy of the commons" for a more detailed argument.



> *No BS USA Lifetime Warranty - check


A nice offer, but more valuable for products that break more often. I expect a flashlight not to break to the point that it requires repair; if it does, there is something very wrong with it. If the problem is even slightly widespread, I would not consider buying that light. The failure rate on lights is low, and many manufactures outside of the US, especially CPF dealers, will replace or repair lights at no cost besides shipping. DX is slightly tricky to get a refund out of due to the long shipping delay and language barrier, but it is entirely possible. This is somewhat negotiated by the far lower cost of DX lights.



> *Very easy to obtain replacement parts - check


Again, this falls under the 'this should be reliable enough to not have to replace' part. Maglight supplies replacement bulbs, which are unessesary for LED lights; for almost any other part, you must request a replacement, just like any other foreign based company. Maglights replacement may arrive a bit faster then one shipped from HK, but there are many US dealers for non-maglights willing to send replacement parts quickly, no questions asked, with faster service and shipping then Maglight.



> *Available for immediate on-site purchase 24/7/365 - check


Agreed. One of the biggest reasons Maglight has become so popular. A retail outlet provides a great place for an instant gratification buy. But some quality third party lights have been moving in alongside maglights in retail store, so this may not last forever. Additionally, the internet is rapidly becoming the commerce method of choice while outlet stores are facing dwindling sales, so more people are used to the order-then-wait-a-few-days drill - again driving sales of 3rd party products.



> *Runs on simple alkalines available ANYWHERE - check


So does my K-106, and a whole host of 3rd party lights. Alkalines are an option, but so are the superior rechargeables. I have yet to find myself in a pinch requiring days of illumination that would require it. In the space and size of a single set of 4D batteries for a Maglight that would run for a day at most, the K-106 could host enough spare 14500s or even alkalines to run for weeks.



> *Rugged, reliable, time tested & proven - check


See my previous statements. Newer, better designed lights have proven to be more rugged, more reliable, and proven just as effectively - there's only so many man-hours that can be put into using a flashlight with a low failure rate before it becomes statistically meaningless.



> *Very reasonable cost - check


'Reasonable' is a relative term. Why pay $30 for a Maglight when a $13 light will do a much better job? There are many lights comparable to the Maglight that are undeniably superior.



> MagLite doesn't manufacture or market to flashaholics. They never have, and they never will. Why? Because it's not their business model. MagLite controls their piece of the market because they give their customers what they want, not what you think people need.


As mentioned above, maglight is popular because most people don't bother learning about flashlights. They don't want to spend a few days researching an obscure flashlight that will fit their needs exactly. Maglight presents a 'one size fits all' option, and consumers simply aren't aware that there are far better choices out there. Regardless of the way you describe it, be it ignorant, uneducated, or uncaring, the average consumer knows very little about flashlights. Here on CPF, we are aware of the choices and what will suit us, and that realization has opened our eyes to the ways Maglights are inferior.



> People aren't uneducated, ignorant, or what ever else you care to call them just because they look for something very different in a light than you.


I know this has been quoted before, but I want to touch on a different point. I very much doubt that any significant portion of Maglight purchasers have put effort into researching flashlights for their specific needs and picked Maglight based on an overall decision about cost, size, weight, durability, and other factors that they desire.

The hidden argument here seems to be about the products themselves; do you believe maglights generally inferior to similarly priced lights of other brands? If so, anyone purchasing them is buying them as a product of misinformation - a lack of awareness about better choices available. It's a simple, irrefutable conclusion; no argument necessary. If you do indeed believe that Maglights are generally superior to all other lights in their price range, then that is an entirely separate argument, and one that has room for debate. Judging by the general sentiment on CPF (as addressed in this topic) about Maglight, it would seem that many who have spent more time and effort them I researching have also come to the conclusion that maglight does not offer the best value for the average consumer.



> If you think you can establish a better company and produce a better product, there's certainly no one standing in your way. After you put MagLite out of business, I'll even be one of your customers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
I don't see how my personal ability to produce a flashlight relates to this subject in any way. My point is that Maglight has become a successful company because of smart business decisions, not because of a superior flashlight. For those of us on CPF who have actively researched, their product is considered inferior - yet we are a small enough minority that Maglight can continue to rely on the average consumer who does not know better. This propagates a general dislike for Maglight on these forums, a dislike that appears to be the opinion of the majority.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Feb 21, 2010)

joshconsulting said:


> a dislike that appears to be the opinion of the majority.


and you base this generality on the fact that thirty or forty dislikers have commented negatively on them in this thread. Thirty or forty out of how many thousand members who haven't commented?

Squeaky wheels may squeak loudly but they do not necessarily constitute the majority of wheels.........................


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## uknewbie (Feb 21, 2010)

joshconsulting said:


> Because they are dim, poorly built, poorly finished and easily broken with short runtime and horrible beam patterns.



Sums it up for me.

I don't recall ever reading anywhere on this forum anyone ever suggesting the use of a standard Maglite. They are terrible.

I am always surprised when people say they are good value or durable. Plastic lens, plastic reflector, plastic switch, pretty thin body, incan bulb. All seems like the opposite of durable to me. Cheap? yes maybe but for what you get they have to be.

Like most on here, I would not dream of having a standard Mag.

Don't give them credit for selling huge numbers either, lots of sh*t sells in large volume, it doesn't mean it is any good.

Craig.


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## McAllan (Feb 21, 2010)

Here's my non-American point of view on this topic.

I long time ago Mag-Lites were the Rolex of flashlights. But since then as the eons passed they've kept resting on the laurels except for the price tag (outside US many US things tends to be quite expensive).
Then suddenly the LED technology went rocketing and what did they do? Come out with halfhearted solutions. While mechanically mostly great (except my wish for HA-III finish) it's like they only made it a half home-run. I remember how disappointed I was when I bought the AA minimag LED. Package claiming 3 watt LED and only putting out a rather dim blue-white beam. No surprise really because it was not even drawing 1 w from fresh batteries (which means even less goes to the LED). And I can understand why. The LED chosen might very well be capable of drawing 3 w but the way the light was built it would then not receive the required cooling.

Here where I live in the last year or two Fenix has really got some serious attention - not just in flashaholic communities. Where I live you can pay just a little bit more to get say a Fenix LD20 which inj just about in anyway blows away the MM LED much more than the price difference should indicate. A non-flashaholic then buys a Fenix upon recommendation of others and while first they doubt because the small price increase (many people are really price sensitive at first) but in % it's nothing to argue about. They receive it and they're literally stunned by it's performance. So while Mag might not be threatened here yet it's pretty darn close. Time to wake up if they want to be on the train outside of US. Here the Mag are too expensive to be on shelves in every equivalent of a WallMart - here you'll only see Duracell and GP flashlights and the like. And if you want something better you go to an outdoor/military/hobby/that kind of specialty shop or place an order in an internet shop.
The "new" adjustable output MM LED does not seem to have reached the shelves yet so can't comment on those.

But also other lights have come to public attention. Mostly Surefire but also Olight and Leatherman Seracs (though especially the leathermans also seems to suffer from the "US-stuff is expensive outside of US"-syndrome). Led Lenser did have much attention at one time but they too seems to have trouble keeping up with prices and making halfhearted products running on 3 cells without proper drivers while claiming hilarious long runtimes that most people will know is nowhere near truth. Some of their newer products are however quite nice but again price is an issue and it takes something to correct a mediocre reputation.


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## Robocop (Feb 21, 2010)

Most of us here are looking at Mag from the eyes of very educated flashaholics. We all wish Mag would do this or do that and yet they still offer only an average Luxeon by our standards. Our standards however are not what Mag cares about and honestly I do not blame them. Why should they cater to a very small lot of flashaholics when their main sales come from the average consumer.

Average customers do not know anything of "Heat Sinking" and they care nothing about the newest technology that we all demand from our shared interests here. personally I feel Mag could produce a better Luxeon by simply adding a decent heatsink. I do not think they ever will do so simply because they do not have to do so to keep their main customers happy. Now yes if all of their customers were CPF members then surely they would have to do something different but again we make up a very small part of their sales.

For me I think it is not really hate but frustration for Mag as I want them to do so much more and they keep falling short by my so very high CPF standards. I remember learning they were offering a new Luxeon and for a short time thought it would surely be something nice. Well I was shocked to see that it was a very simple design with nothing really new. yes when judged on the CPF scale their Luxeons are far behind however their incans are pretty decent and have been considered above average by hundreds of thousands of customers for years....they must be doing something right even if we feel they could do so much more.

I keep waiting for a luxeon version of the Solitaire or even a 5mm LED version however doubt it will ever happen. Selfishly this makes me frustrated with Mag and at times I talk poorly about them.....but they are still moving thousands of those crappy Solitaires every day so I guess the joke is on me when it is all said and done.


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## RedForest UK (Feb 21, 2010)

I don't 'hate' maglites. I just find it annoying that most non-flashaholic people seem to always think that they are the best option available anywhere, when that simply isn't the case anymore. 

This just gets on my nerves, when people buy something thinking it's the best when if theyd looked a bit harder then they couldve had something so much better..


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## LeifUK (Feb 21, 2010)

tk40 said:


> Wow, excellent point. I wasn't aware. Thanks for the info....I now have to reconsider how I think of Maglite :sick2: (and below is a pic illustrating my thoughts on your argument)
> 
> [image removed]



I am confused by your post. The person you responded to put forward a cogent argument in a polite manner. You responded by accusing him of abuse. :huh: Looks to me as if the shoe is on the other foot.


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## RedForest UK (Feb 21, 2010)

Hmm.. yeah, i just read that, +1 on leif UK's response, it looks like you tk40 are the '*** hat' :shakehead


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## LeifUK (Feb 21, 2010)

I have an LED Mini Maglite but I don't use it since buying various lights including a Fenix L2D. The Maglite has a yellow beam, with an awful pattern, very dim output, and only one power level. It looks nice, and is well finished although it has a plastic lamp cover. But it has been surpassed by other lights. Maglite is one of those brands that has reached the high street, and most people who buy them are unware that a light such as the IPT A2 is in many respects better. The new 3AAA Maglite looks very innovative. Still, LED Maglites do offer a decent light compared to other products that are readily available.


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## Csp203 (Feb 21, 2010)

I know it has been said before but I think it needs to be repeated, mag does not make lights for CPR people. 

Costco is selling a 3d and 2aa rebel led maglite combo for 25$. This is perfecct for 98% of the population. 

I have abused a big maglight of the past 15 years. I have even used it as a pry bar and hammer (battery end) more than once. Never had a problem.


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## UserName (Feb 21, 2010)

It's just snobbery, plain and simple.

A Ford Escort, and a Porsche will both get you from point A to point B, but you have bigger ***** if you drive a Porsche.

A Maglite is as much light as you need. A nicer light is as much light as you want.


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## UserName (Feb 21, 2010)

Csp203 said:


> I know it has been said before but I think it needs to be repeated, mag does not make lights for CPR people.



As long as I can at least find where the person is, I can do CPR in the dark.


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## LeifUK (Feb 21, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> and you base this generality on the fact that thirty or forty dislikers have commented negatively on them in this thread. Thirty or forty out of how many thousand members who haven't commented?
> 
> Squeaky wheels may squeak loudly but they do not necessarily constitute the majority of wheels.........................



And you automatically assume that the people who post in this thread are unrepresentative. You have zero evidence for that statement. It might be true of course, but then again, we have no way of knowing.


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## LeifUK (Feb 21, 2010)

UserName said:


> It's just snobbery, plain and simple.
> 
> A Ford Escort, and a Porsche will both get you from point A to point B, but you have bigger ***** if you drive a Porsche.
> 
> A Maglite is as much light as you need. A nicer light is as much light as you want.



Sorry but that is untrue. Since upgrading from a Maglite to Fenix and Quark lights, I have not once stumbled while out cross country running at night. With the Maglite I tripped and fell numerous times, with the very real potential for injury. And last night I pursued on foot a gang of youths who have been harassing me. An LED MIni Maglite would not have been sufficient to locate them. With my Fenix and Quark I was able to illuminate most of the local park, locate the yobs, and give chase. They will think twice in future before harassing innocent people.


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## McAllan (Feb 21, 2010)

RedForest UK said:


> I don't 'hate' maglites. I just find it annoying that most non-flashaholic people seem to always think that they are the best option available anywhere, when that simply isn't the case anymore.
> 
> This just gets on my nerves, when people buy something thinking it's the best when if theyd looked a bit harder then they couldve had something so much better..



+1 on that one.

And especially many here seems to miss the fact that MagLite prices in US are much different from many other places. Here in EU the Mags seems to be roughly twice as expensive as in the US. So here is absolutely no reason what so ever to consider a Mag if you want the best for the price.
Hence Mag "hate" in US vs rest of the world is essentially two different cases.

The only reason to consider a MagLite as I see it is to get a 6D to also use as a club for when weapons and baseball bats are expressively forbidden and an iron tube or crowbar is a too obvious substitute.


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## Natedog100 (Feb 21, 2010)

I apologize in advance for my fourth-grade humor. 



UserName said:


> A Ford Escort, and a Porsche will both get you from point A to point B, but you have bigger ***** if you drive a Porsche.
> 
> A Maglite is as much light as you need. A nicer light is as much light as you want.



That's hilarious, though I am not sure if the analogy really works when you consider a 6D Mag vs. a Quark Mini aa. Similar output but which one do you want the ladies to see you with?


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## DM51 (Feb 21, 2010)

tk40... your post (#11) is ambiguous, and the image is unnecessarily rude and accusatory. 

You've engaged in a flurry of confrontational posts recently; earlier on today I closed one superfluous and trollish thread you started.

I'm sure you don't want to be taken as a troll, but if you persist, you'll be treated as one. If you wish to continue here, I suggest you read more and post less, and adjust your posting style to make it less belligerent and more respectful of members who have more experience than you.

In the meantime, please now go to your post #11 and edit it to remove that image.


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## jk037 (Feb 21, 2010)

I can't understand why people would "hate" Maglites, just because they've been overtaken by modern LED technology.

For decades Maglites were just about the only light available with a decent warranty, solid build and relatively good output (bearing in mind that, before power LED technology emerged, the output of Maglites had actually been rather impressive compared to nearly all their competitors!). Hence just about everyone who needed a reliable flashlight bought a Mag, and most were happy with them at the time.

Although in terms of light output they've now been massively surpassed, Maglites still sell well; I think this is due to the reputation they've built up over the last 30 or so years, as well as the wide availability of their products. And the Maglites themselves are still well-built, still have a ligetime warranty, and still arguably look rather nice too.

Conversely, although competitors such as 4Sevens, iTP, Fenix et al are now producing lights which are VASTLY technologically superior, most people have never heard of these companies and are thus unwilling to spend a significant amount of money on a light from an unknown brand. 
Another factor is that to the majority of people, LEDs are those little dim red lights that show their TV/microwave/stereo/whatever is powered up. They don't associate LEDs with useful amounts of white light; neither do many people believe that a light running from one or two AA batteries can really produce more light than a dirty great Mag running several big D cells.

It IS a great shame that Maglite haven't gone further in embracing current LED technology; as an example, if my imaginary Maglite Solitaire II was ever made (original Solitaire body, but containing a similar driver and emitter to my much-loved iTP A3 Eos), I'm certain that the buying public would lap it up - more light than a BIG maglite, yet it'd run for days in "low" mode on a single AAA cell, and never need a new bulb. And we're all aware of the performance that can be had from a 3xD-cell Mag with a decent dropin; an "official" 3D Mag, kicking out ~200 lumens (with another 2 or 3 lower-output modes for extended battery life) would surely also sell like the proverbial hot cakes.

But, until high street shops begin to sell the type of high power LED lights that we all love, Mag really have little business need to compete with the likes of Quark and Jetbeam and will carry on selling millions of dim-but-sturdy incans and a handful of low-performance LEDs.


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## MegaHurtz (Feb 21, 2010)

Well i gotta say i love;
-the way maglites look
-their focusing ability (stipple the reflector = perfect beam)
-big batteries = lots of runtime
-modding potential (i love my 6AA 5cell Xenon in 2D body)

I wish;
-they had heatsinking

Their newer Rebels are good lights (3 or 4 out of 5 stars IMHO)


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## mcnair55 (Feb 21, 2010)

Csp203 said:


> I know it has been said before but I think it needs to be repeated, mag does not make lights for CPR people.
> 
> Costco is selling a 3d and 2aa rebel led maglite combo for 25$. This is perfecct for 98% of the population.
> 
> I have abused a big maglight of the past 15 years. I have even used it as a pry bar and hammer (battery end) more than once. Never had a problem.



I think you have hit the nail on the head most people who know nothing about lights have heard of Maglite and often refer to a decent torch as a Maglite much as the UK call a digger a JCB regardless of who makes it.


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## joshconsulting (Feb 21, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> and you base this generality on the fact that thirty or forty dislikers have commented negatively on them in this thread. Thirty or forty out of how many thousand members who haven't commented?
> 
> Squeaky wheels may squeak loudly but they do not necessarily constitute the majority of wheels.........................



All I'm saying is that from browsing CPF for the past few months, it seems that most people DON'T think of maglights as the best possible value in the $10-$30 bracket. Without an official survey that polls and receives a response from every active member on CPF, we will never know for sure, but based on the fact that Maglights are almost never recommended even when a fairly cheap light is requested I sincerely doubt that most CPFers would prefer a Maglight to all others. Some things are easily seen without complete evidence. This would mean that to CPF, Maglight is producing an inferior product that is widely revered by those that don't know of better alternatives, fostering a general dislike. It's really not a hate, I would guess that the majority of CPF would answer 'no' if asked if they hated maglight - I certainly would. But I regard their products as inferior, and find it annoying that most people are in the dark about other options they have.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 21, 2010)

Surnia said:


> I was surprised at that too, I remember a similar incident but in a completely different product field (the paintball scene where WGP under K2 ownership stomped out a very promising competitor.. for "intellectual property" they didn't even own or create)... small digging led me to this thread here from 2003 on the maglite thing.
> 
> I'll be looking at maglites a little differently from now on... although I hope the company's a bit better these days.


Thanks for the link. I think this is the most telling comment:



Maglite said:


> Instead of simply changing its flashlight to make it unlike Mag Instrument's Solitaire® flashlight, ARC Flashlights has initiated an email campaign in an attempt to deter Mag Instrument from protecting its intellectual property rights.


 Frankly, I can't fault Maglite for their stance. Perhaps implying that Arc was just another cheap foreign imitator was a bit much, but if it's true that Arc chose to fight back with an email campaign instead of simply changing their design so as not to infringe on Mag's trademarks then the fate of the company falls squarely in the lap of Arc. Yeah, it sucks that a friend of the CPF community got caught up in this, but like I said, I really can't fault Maglite for taking the position that they did.

And seriously, an email campaign in the face of serious legal action from a large corporation? Arc was all but begging to be litigated out of existence.


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## LeifUK (Feb 21, 2010)

joshconsulting said:


> All I'm saying is that from browsing CPF for the past few months, it seems that most people DON'T think of maglights as the best possible value in the $10-$30 bracket. Without an official survey that polls and receives a response from every active member on CPF, we will never know for sure, but based on the fact that Maglights are almost never recommended even when a fairly cheap light is requested I sincerely doubt that most CPFers would prefer a Maglight to all others. Some things are easily seen without complete evidence. This would mean that to CPF, Maglight is producing an inferior product that is widely revered by those that don't know of better alternatives, fostering a general dislike. It's really not a hate, I would guess that the majority of CPF would answer 'no' if asked if they hated maglight - I certainly would. But I regard their products as inferior, and find it annoying that most people are in the dark about other options they have.



I'm not sure why you reply to a comment I made that was addressed to someone else who was saying something quite different to you.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 21, 2010)

uknewbie said:


> I am always surprised when people say they are good value or durable. Plastic lens, plastic reflector, plastic switch, pretty thin body, incan bulb. All seems like the opposite of durable to me.


Yet despite all that, they really are rugged and provide years of reliable service. I have some Maglites that are over a decade old that still work like new. I've never even had to replace the O-rings. I just clean and lube them with petroleum jelly every couple of years.

No, they won't survive being run over by a tank like a SureFire, but they're not unreliable, either.


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## joshconsulting (Feb 21, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> I'm not sure why you reply to a comment I made that was addressed to someone else who was saying something quite different to you.



Oops. I quoted your response, which was similar to mine, to the point I disagreed with. Fixed it now


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## LEDninja (Feb 21, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> And seriously, an email campaign in the face of serious legal action from a large corporation? Arc was all but begging to be litigated out of existence.


If you are already being litigated out of existence and you don't have money to pay for lawyers, the email campaign is your last hope (remember the saving of Star Trek TOS 3rd season).

I think the email campaign made Mag aware they have made a lot of enemies and they seem more careful who they go after. They did not go after Peak even though Peak was using the same engineering drawings and CNC program that built the 1st generation Arcs.
They did not go after Fenix over the E01. Or Nitecore over the EZ series.

-

Wish Mag would build their version of the E01 to replace the Solitaire®.

-

CPF members tend to recommend the latest & greatest thing. Something older like Fenix tends to be forgotten. Mag being famous for still building 25 year old designs have long slipped out of everyone's radar. Companies who have not released a flashlight in the last 3 months are forgotten - Streamlight, Princeton Tec, Underwater Kinetics. And those are North American companies just like Mag.


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## 420light (Feb 21, 2010)

This thread seems to be on fire. Heck it is only like 2 days old.  

Anyway, I love Maglites. Just NOT in stock form. When I first got 2 4D lights 5 years ago, all I can remember thinking was: for something so large this is not a lot of light. I own Three 4 D's and One 2 D now. None of them are worth a lot (other than a being beating stick) in stock form to me. That is why I don't plan to leave them stock.

I own a Fenix PD30 R4 also. There is no way Maglite is keeping up with the current technology in any respectable amount.
*
From johnny3073:
If you told the average John Q. Citizen how much money you had tied up in your lights, they would look at you like you were insane (and they may have a point).*

I have had this happen to me.:nana:
Told a friend I had almost a $100.00 in one of my Mags, and all he said was WHAT? Like he misunderstood what I had said.

But really. To all the folks that say they do not like them for whatever reason, and that they are poorly constructed etc. Stop and think about it. Once you take out the bulb/switch assembly and tail cap, It is really JUST a Metal Pipe. What is to hate about a threaded metal pipe for $10-15.00? I just wait till ThanksGiving to go and but one for about $10.00 dollars. Because it is cheaper than actually buying a aluminum pipe and threading it, making a switch,etc.....


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## berry580 (Feb 21, 2010)

420light said:


> Once you take out the bulb/switch assembly and tail cap, It is really JUST a Metal Pipe. What is to hate about a threaded metal pipe for $10-15.00? I just wait till ThanksGiving to go and but one for about $10.00 dollars. Because it is cheaper than actually buying a aluminum pipe and threading it, making a switch,etc.....


True, except in Australia, they're more like over USD$40 and STILL be considered a bargain.


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## tk40 (Feb 21, 2010)

ghostguy6 said:


> The only mags I own are now my loaner or abuser lights. I still carry one 3D when on night patrols more so as a weapon if need be. I do sometimes use it with a traffic wand when directing traffic.
> 
> I too wrote [email protected] some emails and they went unanswered. If a company will not stand behind their products I will not purchase them. To me Mag only has one advantage, they make cheap hosts for this who want to mod them.


It seem you work in law enforcement. What kind of flashlight is given out to you? I am guessing Surefire or Inova, but what model?


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## DM51 (Feb 21, 2010)

tk40... read post #69 above, and check your PM box. There is an instruction you need to comply with immediately.


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## swampgator (Feb 21, 2010)

johnny3073 said:


> When MagLite came out with their lights they didn't copy or imitate anyone, their lights were original...and best of all they were the best mass produced light in the world. I remember when they came out, and for their day they were CRAZY expensive. When a brand new 2xC/D "el cheapo" was $2.50, $25 for a flashlight was outrageous money.


 
First let me start by saying I don't hate Mag. Quite the contrary I own about 25 of them. They get quite a bit of use but only in a modded form. But I think a few things need to be pointed out.

With the exception of the switch (which was/is very ingenious) nothing about Mag circa 1979 is really original. The aluminum bodied "police flashlight" had been around since Keller made the Kel Lite in the late sixties. Bianchi had a very similiar head which predated the Mag by several years. There are many companies that had a similiar idea that are no longer around. So the claims about Mag being the first are crap. They took an existing idea and refined it. 

Mag hasn't been innovative in a long time. The last true innovative ideas were the Magcharger, Mini Mag and the Soli. And nothing about them was really different except the switches. 

Mag was way behind in regards to LEDs. While eryone else is designing smaller and birghter, Mag slaps a PR based LED into an existing platform and viola, innovation again. Too bad that others already had drop-ins that out performed Mag's offering.

Like I said I don't hate Mag. But I think they rested too long and are playing catch up to a host of players who are willing to let go convention in light design. Mag can't go out and design something completely new due to its "aggressive protection" of the Mag image. They've tied themselves down the the existing Mag image.



tk40 said:


> It seem you work in law enforcement. What kind of flashlight is given out to you? I am guessing Surefire or Inova, but what model?


When I worked in LE I never saw an issued SF or Inova. Not rechargeable. However we did have Magchargers, Streamlight SL-20s, Sl-35s and Stingers. Sure a guy could carry a private purchase but department issued was going to be rechargeable.


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## 420light (Feb 21, 2010)

swampgator said:


> Mag can't go out and design something completely new due to its "aggressive protection" of the Mag image. They've tied themselves down the the existing Mag image.



Very True. But one day they will HAVE to wake up and look behind them. And when they do there is going to be no one there because everyone else is ahead. And this is coming from a guy who loves mags.


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## Rocketman (Feb 21, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> Sorry but that is untrue... With my Fenix and Quark I was able to illuminate most of the local park, locate the yobs, and give chase. They will think twice in future before harassing innocent people.



Hell yeah. +1.


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## burntoshine (Feb 21, 2010)

Robocop said:


> .....but they are still moving thousands of those crappy Solitaires every day so I guess the joke is on me when it is all said and done.



no, i think the joke is on the customers who pay the price of a solitaire to get less lumens and shorter runtime than a small wax candle.

the solitaire is an ideal size, but ridiculously dim.

i guess it's easy to look down at low tech lights when you're a flashaholic.

i'm the same way about music. popular music sounds so cheesy, shallow and stupid to me. i'm very particular about the music i listen to. i'm the same way with a lot of things in life; including flashlights.

i just don't care for maglites anymore. they're too big and bulky for how many lumens and power you get. there are so many more multi-level lights to choose from with lower lows, higher highs, longer runtimes, and just overall more options/features.

computers used to take up entire rooms with tubes. yes, they still functioned, but now you can get a smartphone with more computing power in something that fits in your hand.

everyone can make their own purchase decisions. i choose 'other'.


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## tk40 (Feb 21, 2010)

DM51 said:


> tk40... your post (#11) is ambiguous, and the image is unnecessarily rude and accusatory.
> 
> You've engaged in a flurry of confrontational posts recently; earlier on today I closed one superfluous and trollish thread you started.
> 
> ...


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## Rocketman (Feb 21, 2010)

And btw. All Maglite has to do is get with Malkoff and license his drop-in design and use that in a new edition 2D, 3D, 2C, and 3C. Not the exact drop-in, of course, a factory fit model. If they consult with Gene and just keep with it for a few months, they will have it, a beautiful, strong flashlight that will move them up to the 21's century.

This is my hope, then I will proudly buy another Maglite. Then they should work on an HID model to continue their incandescent line.

I don't know what they are waiting for.

And I bet Gene would be quite reasonable, even generous. And when Maglite gets their manufacturing process all up to speed, I'm thinking the cost won't be too bad at all.


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## DM51 (Feb 21, 2010)

Goodbye to the troll...


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## John_Galt (Feb 21, 2010)

tk40 said:


>




Oooohhhhh..... Bad choice, friend... To moderators: As long as this thread continues in a reasonably calm and polite manner, please keep it open... It is interesting to learn of the litigious history of Mag...


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## DM51 (Feb 21, 2010)

John_Galt said:


> Oooohhhhh..... Bad choice, friend... To moderators: As long as this thread continues in a reasonably calm and polite manner, please keep it open... It is interesting to learn of the litigious history of Mag...


Don't worry - it's quite a good thread. The troll has been removed, so it can continue.


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## Black Rose (Feb 21, 2010)

swampgator said:


> Mag can't go out and design something completely new due to its "aggressive protection" of the Mag image. They've tied themselves down the the existing Mag image.


Actually, with the new XL100, they have designed something completely new, at least when compared to other Mag products.

While they have been behind in the LED world, their new Rebel based Mag products (even though they are using older Rebels) are actually pretty decent lights.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Feb 21, 2010)

LEDninja said:


> If you are already being litigated out of existence and you don't have money to pay for lawyers, the email campaign is your last hope (remember the saving of Star Trek TOS 3rd season).


Showing demand exists for a television program is quite a bit different than trying to convince a company not to protect its trademarks.



LEDninja said:


> I think the email campaign made Mag aware they have made a lot of enemies and they seem more careful who they go after. They did not go after Peak even though Peak was using the same engineering drawings and CNC program that built the 1st generation Arcs.
> They did not go after Fenix over the E01. Or Nitecore over the EZ series.


As I look at pictures of the lights in question, it is interesting how strikingly similar the Arc is to the Maglite Solitaire - even the packaging is very close to identical - while the Fenix and Nitecore lights have several distinctive physical characteristics that make it obvious at a glance that they're not Solitaires. Even Peak apparently added some additional flourishes to the light's form factor further separating it from the Solitaire. That could explain why Maglite hasn't bothered to go after any of them.


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## Swedpat (Feb 21, 2010)

Lumenshroom said:


> It just comes off as a bit of bandwagoning to me. Maglites are sturdy, simple lights that run off of easy-to-find batteries and I find myself using them in certain situations where a "higher-end" light wouldn't fare as well.
> 
> Plus Mr. Malkoff's dropins are amazing.



I have many Maglites in my collection. The main reason is named Malkoff. Otherwise I would only had MagCharger, 2D/Terralux ministar1 and for reference a stock 2D.

Regards, Patric


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## bansuri (Feb 21, 2010)

I haven't read any of the other posts, but perhaps the Maglight hate is merely an outspoken minority of what could be considered a fringe group. (FLashoholics).
While there are quantifiable differences in Mags and "our" lights, they fulfill a need in the market. Also, I have to give them props as they kept my interest sated while technology caught up to my desires. 


Now, going to read the rest of the posts as it looks like there's been some trouble....


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## Unforgiven (Feb 21, 2010)

bansuri said:


> .........
> 
> Now, going to read the rest of the posts as it looks like there's been some trouble....



Which is part of the reason why leaving the thread open has been reconsidered. This is what amounts to a product bashing thread. Although some posts appear factual, many are opinions and misinformation. This topic is a good candidate for the UG where it may continue.


It is closed here.


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