# Eneloops - reduced capacity...



## etc (Jun 30, 2007)

Sanyo Eneloop is that new low-discharge technology, but it's rated at only 2,000 mAh. However Sanyo or Maha Powerex are both rated at 2700 mAh, or 30% higher - and it takes a long time for them to discharge 30% to the level of Eneloop. A month maybe, or more.

For heavy duty equipment, cameras, flashlights, radios, the higher amps cells win, unless you need to store them for a long time.

I've used both and the only difference is that Eneloop cuts out sooner than others at higher amps.

Until Eneloop comes out with a similar capacity, it's not a real competitor with dominant cells.


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## MrAl (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Hi there etc,

You bring up some good points, however the bottom line is that it depends
on how you use your cells. If you use your cells right after charging or
within a few weeks and you use them for a long period of time then
the higher capacity cells might be better as you say because you will
use all the capacity right then and there. Using Eneloops in this way
will mean less run time.
On the other hand, if you use your device for short periods of time over
long periods of time (like a minute or two per day over several months)
then the Eneloops (or clones) are the way to go for sure.

I happen to use most of my cells like the latter, where i run something for
short periods of time or may not even use something for a week or two,
and when i pick it up a month or two later i want some decent capacity
left, even if it's not 2500mAh. The Eneloops work out very well for me
(although i use the Kodak clones instead). I can use something for a
few minutes and put it down, then three or four months later pick it
up again and not have to recharge the cells before i use it again.


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## zehnmm (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I originally thought the same thing too. But, I have found that some of the higher capacity cells a) do not charge all the way to their stated capacity; and 2) cannot handle higher amperage requirements, such as 5 amps, without severe voltage sag.

For my usage, I am running an Osram 50W 64610 bulb in a Mag hotwire. I use 12 Eneloop AA's to get runtimes of about 22 min. in a 1300 torch lumen scorcher. 

While I have not tried Sanyos and Mahas, I have not experienced, so far, what you stated about the Eneloops cutting out sooner than others. In fact, my experience is the opposite: At current draw of an estimated 4.35 amps for my 50W light, the Eneloops are holding up as good or better than my CBP1650's so far.

Just my 2 cents. 

Regards.


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## Eugene (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I've found that with eneloop we have to charge the batteries in our camera every 3-4 months. With higher capacity we had to charge them every month. So even though the capacity is higher they don't last as long, therefore they are good for more than just storage.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I haven't given Hybrids the acid (GPSr) test yet, but I will tell you why I want to.

Early on, E2500 held voltage well. I charged at least 5 pairs of batteries on the weekend. Then I use one pair a day all week. Now it's getting sketchy whether my GPSr will run all day (as it did just fine some months ago).

Two of my Hotwire lights hold charge WAY longer than they used to, thanks to Hybrids.

So I still intend to get more and give 'em the GPSr test!


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## Gazoo (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I don't think Sanyo meant for the eneloops to compete with higher capacity batteries. Rather, to compete with alkaline batteries. I don't have anything that requires a higher capacity battery than the eneloop AA's and AAA's, so I ordered a bunch of them to replace my aging GP 2300's, and aging AAA's. I did order a fresh set of Sanyo 2700ma batteries in case I need them for something in the future.

Personally I hate alkaline batteries. I seem to have bad luck with them leaking and I don't plan on buying them anymore except for C and D sizes only. I rarely need C and D size batteries.


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## etc (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I got a few packs of Eneloops a while ago to test them out. I put one pack in a digital camera because I use it so rarely. It seems to work best this way. But if I expected some heavy duty usage, I would take more serious cells as a backup. 

In MiniMag 3AA, the Powerex 2700 mAh is a clear winner in terms of run time for devices like LED flashlights which run for 3-4 hours and then quit, unlike alarm clocks. Same thing in a GPS device. Same thing in a scanner radio. None of them draw that high an amperage. 

There was a test in the "Headlamps" forum about Princeton Tec Apex and there was about 1 hour difference between 2,000 mAh and 2,700 mAh. 4 hours vs. 3 hours.

I tried putting one Eneloop in an alarm clock but then decided that an alkaline might be better for it anyway, so I can use the Eneloop in devices that prefer NiMH.

One aspect where the Eneloop *might* be of an advantage is if takes more cycles than higher rated NiMH. I hear that the higher the capacity, the fewer cycles a cell gets. If the Eneloops get substantially more cycles than Maha Powerex, then they are truly worth it.

Also, Maha Powerex is surprisingly slow discharging. I measured cells that have been sitting for a while and I never got a difference I could quantify. 

I am sure they will up the capacity soon, this year, making 2,00 mAh obsolete.


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## OhMyGosh (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

To me the big appeal of Eneloops, Hybrios, etc is that they don't require all the care and attention of regular NiMH. For sure if you are always running batteries down within a week or so, you are better off with 2700 mAH Powerex or whatever.

An example is my handheld scanner which uses 3xAA. Typically used a lot for a while then not used for a few weeks. I never seem to remember to care for the batteries when not in use. The ~year old GP 2300 mAH batteries that came with are already down to ~1600 mAH and are pretty much worn out even though they have <10 cycles on them. I replaced them with Hybrio's and so far they are holding up very well.


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## barkingmad (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



etc said:


> I got a few packs of Eneloops a while ago to test them out. I put one pack in a digital camera because I use it so rarely. It seems to work best this way. But if I expected some heavy duty usage, I would take more serious cells as a backup.
> 
> In MiniMag 3AA, the Powerex 2700 mAh is a clear winner in terms of run time for devices like LED flashlights which run for 3-4 hours and then quit, unlike alarm clocks. Same thing in a GPS device. Same thing in a scanner radio. None of them draw that high an amperage.
> 
> ...


 
Not sure I agree - for these reasons:

1. Eneloops are a true 2000mah (or very close) - many other batteries I have tested are significantly off-spec. This seems especially true with some 2700mah batteries (many of which are nearer 2300-2500mah actual). The exception I found is Sanyo's own 2700mah. So 'freshly charged' some may only have 15-25% more capacity than Eneloops.

2. Eneloops lose very little to self discharge - typically 15% a year compared to some NiMH which lose about 10% in the first day and certainly 15% (or a lot more) in a few weeks to a month.

Basically if you are charging the batteries and using them right away go with high capacity NiMH (like the Sanyo 2700mah) but if you are not then the Eneloops may be better as the 'normal' NiMH will have discharged to the same capacity after a matter of days or a week etc.


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## EngrPaul (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Eneloops also work in very low drain applications that would not be appropriate for normal rechargeables.

Consider wall clocks, thermometers, etc.

I also have many infrequently used devices aroun d the house that I don't want to keep alkalines in, but I also don't want to keep changing batteries every time I want to use them. A labelmaker, portable radio, etc.

For these applications, eneloops rock!


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## IsaacHayes (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I'd have to disagree. I have some 2600mah cells and in my digital camera they are worthless in about a week and that's using them on/off. The eneloops keep going and going and going in my camera. Same with my flashlights that use AA. My C cell flashlights I keep charged regularly though because I need the high capacity for them.


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## barkingmad (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Basically the only place for higher capacity NiMH are specifically where that higher capacity is instantly required (i.e. within a matter of days or a week of charging).


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## ltiu (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Oh well. I just got myself some Duracell 2650 mAh and some Sony 2500 mAh to use on some very frequently used lights - full discharge in a 24 hour period.

I also got some Eneloops and Hybrids for those lights that may be needed 1 or more months from the last recharge.


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## Martini (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Eneloops essentially have provided us with a rechargeable alternative to lithium AAs. Before, we often used lithiums because of the drawbacks of other chemistries; i.e., alkaline voltage sag and leakiness, and NiMH self-discharge. Eneloops, at 1.2v, will also run in some devices that cannot handle 1.7v lithium batteries. Realize that only a few years ago, the best NiMHs we had were equal in capacity to Eneloops, but would be dead in a month. I've read that there is some evidence to suggest that the self-discharge rate of Eneloops even _decreases_ over time. The reduced capacity of Eneloops does not bother me one bit, and it's only a matter of time before it increases as well.


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## TorchBoy (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Dare I say it, I like Eneloops simply because they perform as they are claimed to perform. The capacity is a real capacity (indeed, in my last test a set of 4 got an average 2106mAh), unlike high capacity cells which might meet their theoretical capacity hot off the charger but in practice don't like sitting for long at all and never quite live up to expectation. Eneloops' voltage sag under heavy loads has also been observed to be less than other cells.

Basically, Eneloops work as I expect a rechargeable battery to work.

The 2000mAh cells will certainly not become obsolete when 2100mAh or greater Eneloops come out. (Apparently I have some already.) Do you really think a 5% difference in capacity would render the older cells obsolete? (What would you do, recycle them?) Unlike other NiMH cells, I expect first generation Eneloops will still have almost all their capacity after hundreds of cycles, unlike (most?) higher capacity cells which I expect to lose significant capacity after just a few hundred cycles - another example of not living up to expectation. Eneloops are most certainly a strong competitor to higher capacities.


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## Quickbeam (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Eugene said:


> I've found that with eneloop we have to charge the batteries in our camera every 3-4 months. With higher capacity we had to charge them every month. So even though the capacity is higher they don't last as long, therefore they are good for more than just storage.



I found the exact same thing. I love the Eneloops/ROV Hybrids/Titanium Power Enduro cells (all low self-discharge). I finally feel that rechargeables are worth using. I would commonly charge up high capacity NiMH cells, use them a little and find them dead a month later...

The only time I've seen the LS-D cells at a disadvantage to regular NiMH, is when the regular ones are used right off the charger. Even unused, I commonly had 2600 mAh Energizers with a full charge come up dead in a couple of weeks while the LS-D cells still have a full charge.

Doug P.


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## Norm (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Quickbeam said:


> I found the exact same thing. I love the Eneloops/ROV Hybrids/Titanium Power Enduro cells (all low self-discharge).
> Doug P.


I agree with all of Doug's post.
Norm


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## wasBlinded (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

My big beef with the 2500+ mAh cells was the high failure rate of some percentage of the cells after a few months. Their self-discharge rates went sky high, and charging cutoff became hit or miss. I haven't had this problem with the Eneloops or ROV Hybrid LSD cells.

I have noticed that the ROV Hybrid cells do operate at a slightly lower voltage than standard NiMh cells, and this fools the battery meters in some electronic devies. I don't have a feel for how the Eneloops do in this regard.


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## lowatts (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Besides what's been already said, another reason I like Eneloops is unlike a lot of NiMH it is thin enough to fit in my narrow Ultrafire C3 battery tube.


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## Crashking (Jul 1, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

i recently got into the rechargeable battery arena... and personally wouldnt buy anything but a hybrid style battery... anything battery powered that i use isn't really a high drain device, i actually got a set of 2700mAh sanyo's by accident from TD and have no idea what i should put them into, other than maybe my keyboard... which definitely isn't a high drain device... and already has a set of rechargables that came out of my mouse

here's a list of what i am using the eneloop AA and AAA for
8 AA- canon s3 is
2 AAA- fenix lod-ce's
2 AAA- remotes for my trucks alarm
4 AA- batteries for computer mice
1 AAA- spare for my lod-ce while at work

3 AAA-spares for when i find something else i need them for
4 AA -spares for same reason

the camera see's off and on use... i don't want to have to worry about the batteries being charged when i do decide to use it... or worrying if the spares are ready to go... it uses 4 AA's and i have 4 more for spares.... plus i get about 1000 non flash shots on a set of AA eneloops... where i was gettin about 400 on primary AA's... yuck

for me.... hybrids are perfect for what i need... sure i could use some more mAh... but that will come with time


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## barkingmad (Jul 1, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Crashking said:


> i recently got into the rechargeable battery arena... and personally wouldnt buy anything but a hybrid style battery... anything battery powered that i use isn't really a high drain device, i actually got a set of 2700mAh sanyo's by accident from TD and have no idea what i should put them into, other than maybe my keyboard... which definitely isn't a high drain device... and already has a set of rechargables that came out of my mouse
> 
> here's a list of what i am using the eneloop AA and AAA for
> 8 AA- canon s3 is
> ...


 
Using normal NiMH in a low drain device like a keyboard is about the worst thing as the self discharge rate will probably be higher than the drain from the device.

Ideally normal NiMH devices should be used where you may want the higher capacity and will be using the device right away - i.e. mostly higher drain applications.


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## BSBG (Jul 1, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I just built my first Mag85 and debated batteries for days. I ended up w/ the Eneloops for the positive reasons noted above - consistency, low discharge, high drain capacity. So far, so good.

I have 3 left over (had to buy 12) that I need to find something to do with now.


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## LouRoy (Jul 1, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I have used NiMH batteries in my digital camera for the past 6 years. I take between 300-400 pictures every day and charge the batteries each night. I have had many of the NiMH batteries fail and stop holding a charge for any length of time. If I waited just one day between charging and using the batteries, the batteries would only take a few pictures. My current set is a few months old (certainly no more than 100 cycles) and if I charge the batteries on Friday night and don't use the camera until Monday morning, I cannot take a full set of pictures. 

I will not be purchasing any more NiMH rechargeable batteries. I have bought Eneloops and they will easily take the same number of pictures in my camera. Plus, I can count on them to work if the camera takes a rest for a few days. 

So even though I am one of those that uses rechargeable batteries on almost a daily basis, the advantages of Eneloops are clear to me and I think they are the best battery choice for practically everyone.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 1, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I had a couple of my older Rayovac 1800s quit early using my GPSr yesterday.

I thought these were A-OK, but maybe I was wrong.

I did a job yesterday for which the minimum $ I will recieve is 250 and I WILL get some more Hybrids or maybe even some Eneloops for my GPSr!!!

The high mAh stuff just isn't cutting it in the long run...


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## Crashking (Jul 1, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



barkingmad said:


> Using normal NiMH in a low drain device like a keyboard is about the worst thing as the self discharge rate will probably be higher than the drain from the device.
> 
> Ideally normal NiMH devices should be used where you may want the higher capacity and will be using the device right away - i.e. mostly higher drain applications.


 this i know... i already have the rechargable batteries that came out of the mouse (1700mAh AA cells) in the keyboard.... but i really don't have a use for the 2700 sanyo's yet... was just an idea that i tossed up and in a way a point that the eneloops are actually good for some applications.... guess i need to find new r/c toy to play with.... that gives me an idea actually... i think i have one that could use them....:devil:


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## lctorana (Jul 1, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Great to read that Eneloops really do have low self-discharge.

My question is - could anyone compare the self-discharge rate to NiCd?


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## Gazoo (Jul 1, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



LouRoy said:


> I will not be purchasing any more NiMH rechargeable batteries. I have bought Eneloops and they will easily take the same number of pictures in my camera. Plus, I can count on them to work if the camera takes a rest for a few days.



Well....actually eneloops are NIMH batteries, but I do understand your statement. It will be very interesting to know how well they hold up for you since you use them a lot. I hope you will let us know after you have used them awhile.


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## Martini (Jul 2, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



lctorana said:


> My question is - could anyone compare the self-discharge rate to NiCd?


IIRC, NiCDs lose ~10% within the first 24 hours after charging, and 10% per month after that; better than standard NiMH, but far behind Eneloop. NiCd AAs also have much lower capacity; the best I remember seeing was 1000mAh advertised, which is likely inflated. Eneloops have proven to be very close to (and often exceeding) the 2000mAh claim.


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## lctorana (Jul 2, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Martini said:


> IIRC, NiCDs lose...


Wow. I'm impressed.

Now, just waiting for 5000mAh Eneloop D cells...


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## Norm (Jul 2, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

There are 3 AA to D adapters, then you would have a 6000mA D cell.
Norm


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## lctorana (Jul 2, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Norm said:


> There are 3 AA to D adapters, then you would have a 6000mA D cell.
> Norm


Ahhh...:thumbsup:


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## chesterqw (Jul 2, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

eneloops are good in the sense that you can charge them, put them in a corner for a year or two and still have more then 50% if the capacity for you to "burn"


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## barkingmad (Jul 2, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



chesterqw said:


> eneloops are good in the sense that you can charge them, put them in a corner for a year or two and still have more then 50% if the capacity for you to "burn"


 
They lose 10% over the first 6 months and a further 5% over a full year so only 15% in total (85% remaining) after a year.

Based on 5% loss in the second 6 months I would expect that to continue for the next year - so another 10% - so probably still 75% remaining over about 2 years.


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## Norm (Jul 2, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are Good*

I think it's time to change the title now that so many people have told of their positive experiences.
Norm


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## BlackDecker (Jul 2, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I picked up a 8pack AA set of Sanyo Eneloops a few months ago. So far, they've only been through 2 recharge cycles which I attribute to their ability to hold a charge.

For the type of usage I have, I prefer the 2000mah Sanyos over the 2500mah Evereadys I have. Some of my Eveready's are below 1.0v within 2-3 weeks of a charge.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 2, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



For the type of usage I have said:


> 2-3 WEEKS???? Try 2-3 Days!
> 
> I called Energizer to express my distress over 2500s. I was told my 1.5 year old or so 2500s are just worn out from charging once a week. Yeah right!
> 
> ...


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Norm you have to change the title of your thread in your first post.

Bill


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## barkingmad (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> 2-3 WEEKS???? Try 2-3 Days!
> 
> I called Energizer to express my distress over 2500s. I was told my 1.5 year old or so 2500s are just worn out from charging once a week. Yeah right!
> 
> ...


 
Think I would use the voucher to buy some Energizer Lithium AA's (always useful as a backup) and buy some Sanyo Eneloop LSD batteries.


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## BlackDecker (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

fyi ... Circuit City is running a special on the 8 pack of Sanyo Eneloop AA 8 pack during the week of July 4th ... $19.99.


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## BlackDecker (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> 2-3 WEEKS???? Try 2-3 Days!
> 
> I called Energizer to express my distress over 2500s. I was told my 1.5 year old or so 2500s are just worn out from charging once a week. Yeah right!
> 
> ...



Playboy: I was being generous to Eveready when I said 2-3 weeks. It probably is much less than that. With the Eveready's, I have to charge them just before I use them which I find very inconvenient. The Sanyo's are ready to go anytime I need them.


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## TorchBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



BlackDecker said:


> With the Eveready's, I have to charge them just before I use them which I find very inconvenient. The Sanyo's are ready to go anytime I need them.


How much of this is simply because the Eneloops are newer, and don't have as many cycles yet?


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## Norm (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Bullzeyebill said:


> Norm you have to change the title of your thread in your first post.
> 
> Bill


First post wasn't mine Bill. Just saying that the title should be changed by etc.
Norm


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## wrathothebunny (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



etc said:


> Sanyo Eneloop is that new low-discharge technology, but it's rated at only 2,000 mAh. However Sanyo or Maha Powerex are both rated at 2700 mAh, or 30% higher - and it takes a long time for them to discharge 30% to the level of Eneloop. A month maybe, or more.
> 
> For heavy duty equipment, cameras, flashlights, radios, the higher amps cells win, unless you need to store them for a long time.
> 
> ...



Etc.,

I have no doubt that several members here have corrected you on the error of your ways in saying that Eneloop is not a serious competitor with dominant cells. For your uses, perhaps Eneloops don't fit the bill, but for you to categorically state that Eneloops - which represents the state-of-the-art for ultra-low self-discharge NIMHs - don't compete, well, that's just ignorant. Perhaps you want to state that Toyota will never be a serious competitor to Ford, or that Vanilla will never compete with Chocolate. 

These statements would make about as much sense to me as your post. People like Eneloops because, say, if they are in a flashlight (this is a flashlight community after all), they don't have to worry about recharging them right before they take them on a camping trip or whatever, even if they were sitting in their drawer for weeks/months.

In the future, please try to adopt a broader mindset than just what works for you when you disrespect a product again, O.K. Etc.?


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## LukeA (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Norm said:


> There are 3 AA to D adapters, then you would have a 6000mA D cell.
> Norm



Highest capacity NiMH D cell I've seen is twice that.


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## jtr1962 (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Most of my AA Eneloops test at 2050 to 2100 mAh. While the best available high-capacity cells test at 2550 to 2600 mAh, there have been issues with them developing rapid self-discharge after a few dozen cycles. The standard cells which don't have these issues all seem to be about 2200 mAh or less, giving them practically no advantage over Eneloops. IMHO Eneloops are the greatest thing since sliced bread. They pretty much make alkaline and lithium AAs obsolete. And to put things in perspective, even though their capacity is _only_ 2000 mAh, I'm old enough to remember when 500 mAh in a rechargeable AA cell was considered good. 2000 mAh hardly seems limiting in any way to me.


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## Norm (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



LukeA said:


> Highest capacity NiMH D cell I've seen is twice that.


Luke we're talking Eneloops not standard NiMh,


Ictorana said:


> Now, just waiting for 5000mAh Eneloop D cells...


Norm


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## cave dave (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



TorchBoy said:


> How much of this is simply because the Eneloops are newer, and don't have as many cycles yet?


I've been using eneloops for 18 months and they have been great. Granted they haven't been through many cycles, because they are ready to go when I need them. I don't need to recharge before each use like the 2500's.


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## TorchBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Norm said:


> First post wasn't mine Bill. Just saying that the title should be changed by etc.
> Norm


I wondered about this. Bill, did you mean Norm should change the subjects of his first two (and 4th & 5th) posts to match his third? (I think I counted right.)


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## ltiu (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



BlackDecker said:


> fyi ... Circuit City is running a special on the 8 pack of Sanyo Eneloop AA 8 pack during the week of July 4th ... $19.99.



Just got 2 packs of 8AAs. Great deal. Thanks for the tip. Deal is available online too but got mine from a brick and mortar.


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## TorchBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



cave dave said:


> I've been using eneloops for 18 months and they have been great. Granted they haven't been through many cycles, because they are ready to go when I need them. I don't need to recharge before each use like the 2500's.


:thinking:

Hmmm. So having to recharge other cells so often just accelerated their decay. A downward spiral.

I use Eneloops for caving because they're my do-everything battery now. Do you use them for caving also or do you prefer the higher capacity? (I can't remember if you've already mentioned it.) I've been tempted to get a set of 2700mAh cells primarily for caving, especially since they're a bit cheaper than Eneloops, but I really think that more Eneloops would be more useful in the long run.


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## wrathothebunny (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

So far, these are some pretty compelling arguments for sticking with Eneloop - You listening Etc.?


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## ltiu (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



TorchBoy said:


> :thinking:
> 
> I've been tempted to get a set of 2700mAh cells primarily for caving, especially since they're a bit cheaper than Eneloops, but I really think that more Eneloops would be more useful in the long run.



On sale Eneloops are the same price as 2700 mAh on retail ...


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## Eugene (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



ltiu said:


> On sale Eneloops are the same price as 2700 mAh on retail ...




Depends on where you buy them from. I'm still getting the $7.99 per 4 pack of Eneloop at HHGreg and I have paid much more than that for traditional NiMH batteries. Paid over $20 for an 8 pack a few years ago because we were going on a trip and my older ones weren't holding enough of a charge for the camera to complete its power up cycle.

IMHO the title of this tread needs to be "Old Fashioned NiMH are now useless thanks to the Low Self Discharge types like Eneloop". I can't come up with any reason to ever buy a regular NiMH no matter what the rating because I can always carry a spare set of eneloop and then have a guaranteed 4000mAh capacity.


----------



## Martini (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



ltiu said:


> Just got 2 packs of 8AAs. Great deal. Thanks for the tip. Deal is available online too but got mine from a brick and mortar.


My Circuit City needs to get with the program; I was there today and Eneloops with still $30 for 8AA. :thumbsdow


----------



## GaryF (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

While there are some circumstances where the short term availability of the extra mah is an advantage, increasingly I'm just finding my Sanyo 2700's to be a nuisance, as they tend to let me down when I need them unless I'm very active in charge management with them. I've got 16 Eneloops and 2 Hybrids, and I don't see myself purchasing anything else going forward.


----------



## Eugene (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



GaryF said:


> While there are some circumstances where the short term availability of the extra mah is an advantage, i



I haven't found any.


----------



## thekobk (Jul 3, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Thank you BlackDecker for the heads up. this sale was not in the Madison add but the batterys were still on sale. Now that I have one of the best charges in the word "mh9000" and more aa cells then should be allowed to own why wont the darn power go out?


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 4, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Of two DEFINATELY questionable E 2500 I charged from a start at .34V to end at 1.43V last night at 8:09PM CST, one is now at 11:10PM at 1.296 and the other at 1.285.

Two others started at .96 and ended at 1.44 at 10:40PM last night. Now one is 1.272 and one at 1.285. Not much over 24 hours and there is no way the would run my GPSr all day.

I did collect a decent chunk of cash tonight and WILL get some Eneloops!

EDIT: A pair of E2500 did in fact last all day today. This is getting rather rare....


----------



## BlackDecker (Jul 4, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Now I just need to get over to Circuit City and pickup another 8pack of Sanyo Eneloops. I found that price on their website, but it should be honored at any of their retail outlets.


----------



## bob_ninja (Jul 4, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I guess I'll add my 2c.

There is too much focus on capacity which led to this fiasco.
Capacity is useless if not present when needed and/or cannot be delivered. High capacity cells suffer both high SD and inability to deliver higher current.
All this points to the lower quality which seems to be pervasive for high capacity cells. People point to Jap Energizers, or this batch or that batch, etc. Nosense. They are DESIGNED fragile and with all the shortcomings in order to maximize capacity.

That is why Eneloop and other LSDs are superior regardless of capacity disadvantage. They are designed to be VERY ROBUST. That means they can take a beating (high current) and they can sit on a shelf for a long time, yet keep working. To me that is even more important. To have a RELIABLE capacity to be able to use when needed.

LSDs will be popular as we send a message that high capacity race has gone too far. Few people will be happy to use Energizers and others for 50-100 cycles and buy new ones every few months. Most will not.


----------



## barkingmad (Jul 4, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



bob_ninja said:


> I guess I'll add my 2c.
> 
> There is too much focus on capacity which led to this fiasco.
> Capacity is useless if not present when needed and/or cannot be delivered. High capacity cells suffer both high SD and inability to deliver higher current.
> ...


 
The problem is the nomal person buying rechargeable batteries in their local store will usually buy on price or capacity and not understand why LSD are so much better.

Hopefully soon manufacturers will make LSD the 'standard'...


----------



## ltiu (Jul 4, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Packaging also matters, for those who are unaware.

Sanyo Eneloop's packaging is bland and looks plain.

Sony, Energizer, Duracell all have pretty spiffy packaging. The average Joe will be attracted to the nice packaging and get the battery that has the best packaging.


----------



## jtr1962 (Jul 4, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



bob_ninja said:


> That is why Eneloop and other LSDs are superior regardless of capacity disadvantage. They are designed to be VERY ROBUST. That means they can take a beating (high current) and they can sit on a shelf for a long time, yet keep working. To me that is even more important. To have a RELIABLE capacity to be able to use when needed.


That's the main reason I've come to love LSD cells. Up until their development, it seemed that NiMH cells were more fragile than their NiCd counterparts. After all, I remember NiCd cells could take all sorts of abuse, then sit for ten years, and only require a few cycles to be good as new. On the other hand, I've had some NiMH cells which after a year of nonuse permanently lost capacity. Others didn't last for anywhere near the advertised 500 cycles. And I've examined 2700 mAh Sanyos which self-discharged completely within a week.

While none of these problems kept me from using rechargeables instead of primaries, the fact is that these cells just weren't as robust as NiCd. I can easily see how an average person might try rechargeables, and then give up because of the maintenance. LSD cells really don't require such maintenance. You can charge them, put them in a drawer for 6 months or more, and they'll be ready to go with most of their capacity, just like a primary cell. Not needing charging before each use means fewer cycles, which in turn enhances reliability further. And the lower capacity means more robust construction. IMHO cell makers just pushed the bleeding edge too far in the capacity race. It seems you can get a very robust AA cell with a real 2100 mAh capacity. The best high-capacity cells thus far measure around 2600 mAh, or less than 25% more. However, after 50 to 100 cycles in many cases that extra capacity will only be available if used within a day of charging. And the cells will probably experience voltage depression, making them useless, well before the advertised 500 cycles. LSD cells on the other hand will likely still be fine after ten years of normal use.

If we're really serious about wanting to get primary cells off the store shelves for good then the general public should be educated in the advantages of LSD cells. For a relatively small one-time investment a person's battery needs for ten years or more can be met. Long term they will save tons of money, avoid the inconvenience of running to the store to buy batteries, plus prevent more junk in landfills. The only losers here will be the stores and companies which now get a cash stream from selling primary cells.


----------



## Gazoo (Jul 4, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Just some info...for those that like to order online I recommend Battery Bob. I purchased all my eneloops from him and am very happy with his service, price, and of course the batteries. He only has 2 packs. AA's are $5.14 per pack, and AAA's are $4.19 per pack. But shipping is free making this a pretty good deal.

http://www.batterybob.com/default.asp


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## BlackDecker (Jul 4, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Gazoo said:


> Just some info...for those that like to order online I recommend Battery Bob. I purchased all my eneloops from him and am very happy with his service, price, and of course the batteries. He only has 2 packs. AA's are $5.14 per pack, and AAA's are $4.19 per pack. But shipping is free making this a pretty good deal.
> 
> http://www.batterybob.com/default.asp



Not a bad deal if you don't mind waiting a week for your batteries. But keep in mind the prices quoted above are for 2 batteries. Circuit City is running the 8 pack AA Sanyo Eneloops for $19.99 if you want them right away.

I picked up 2 packages of the Sanyo 8AA's today and am retiring my old Energizer 2500mah batteries to lights I plan on using within a few days of charging. I just can't trust the Energizers past a few days of charging anymore.

The Sanyo's I bought at CC have a date stamped in the internal packaging of Sept '06. I tested all 16 batteries and each is showing a voltage of 1.31v. Impressive for something that has been sitting idle for almost a year.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 4, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I have some Rayovac Hybrids that have been in one of my lights for at least a couple months. It has only been on for a few seconds a few times.

The Hybrids all read 1.306 or higher and all have high 6s or better flash amps.

NONE of my rechargable regular Nimh could make THAT claim!


----------



## Gazoo (Jul 5, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



BlackDecker said:


> The Sanyo's I bought at CC have a date stamped in the internal packaging of Sept '06. I tested all 16 batteries and each is showing a voltage of 1.31v. Impressive for something that has been sitting idle for almost a year.



I did notice about the same voltage, all of them measuring around 1.3 volts and they were manufactured in August 06. 

I posted this in another thread but I might as well post it here too. The capacity using a discharge current of 500ma's was as follows:

1479 ma
1486 ma
1479 ma
1488 ma

I let them rest for a few hours, then did a refresh analyze with a discharge current of 500ma and a charge current of 1000ma. After this the capacity of the batteries were:

2016 ma
2015 ma
1982 ma
2008 ma

I don't know why the one had a bit of a lower capacity. But as everyone can see the capacities are still consistent. Pretty impressive for batteries that were 10 months old when I received them.


----------



## Gene (Jul 5, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I'm with everyone in the hybrid camp here. I used the high end MAHA Powerex cells and I found I got sick and tired of charging them all the tiime. These hybrids are a revolution!

I've only used the Eneloop hybrids so far and I'll never go back to to regular AA and AAA NiMHs again, no matter how high the capacity. 

The only standard NiMHs I still use are the C and D cells as their high capacity volume allow them to stay charged for an acceptable amount of time. As soon as the hybrid versions come out though, they're history!

As an aside, how do the other hybrid brands stack up against the Eneloops?


----------



## Eugene (Jul 5, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Gene said:


> I'm with everyone in the hybrid camp here. I used the high end MAHA Powerex cells and I found I got sick and tired of charging them all the tiime. These hybrids are a revolution!
> 
> I've only used the Eneloop hybrids so far and I'll never go back to to regular AA and AAA NiMHs again, no matter how high the capacity.
> 
> ...



Ok, be careful here, there are no hybrid batteries, no Eneloop Hybrids, no Hybrid brands. Hybrid is a rayovac product name, other brands have their own names. Calling them all hybrids would be like calling all SUV's Escalades, i.e. Caddy escalde, ford escalade, toyota escalade, etc.
The rayovac hybrid, sanyo eneloop, etc are low self discharge NiMH batteries, nothing more, nothing hybrid about them.
Eneloop seem to be the most consistent in voltage so most are going by availability. I went with Eneloop because they were available and lower cost than the others.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 5, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Tonight at Walmart I got 4 Eneloops 9only 4 because they only come with a charger at WM) and 4 more Rayovac Hybrids.

Each of 8 batteries read 1.309 to 1.310. Pretty darn consitent!

Also the Hybrids at 1.3x ran my GPSr just peachy today! Lately it's been hit or miss with conventional NimH.


----------



## maverick (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I'm using Eneloops and find them to be great. I want to ask, has anyone tried GP "Recyko" cells? They are supposed to be LSD cells too and are rated at the same capacity as Eneloops. 

http://www.gprecyko.com/en/index.html

Last time I saw they are slightly cheaper than Eneloops.


----------



## TorchBoy (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I find my old GP 1800mAh NiMH cells have a great shelf life. Maybe that says something about modern LSD technology.


----------



## Gazoo (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



TorchBoy said:


> I find my old GP 1800mAh NiMH cells have a great shelf life. Maybe that says something about modern LSD technology.



So do my old eveready 1700's. But nothing like eneloops. My GP 2300's are shot after only a couple of years and not many charge cycles.


----------



## barkingmad (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



TorchBoy said:


> I find my old GP 1800mAh NiMH cells have a great shelf life. Maybe that says something about modern LSD technology.


 
Not sure what it says? Eneloop / other LSD batteries lose about 15% in a year - would be pretty surprised if your GP normal NiMH batteries did not lose that in the first month?

I have GP 2500mah cells and they are pretty awful for self discharge - will see if I have some older / lower capacity cells still to test.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I've had a very few E2100 fail, and I'm not sure i've ever lost any battery of less than 2100 capacity.

That's not to say thay are perfect. But they aren't as absoluetly worthless as MANY of my 2500 cells!

The Eneloops I got last night start GPSr testing today. If they are indeed better than Hybrids I expect no issues!


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## Valolammas (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



maverick said:


> I'm using Eneloops and find them to be great. I want to ask, has anyone tried GP "Recyko" cells? They are supposed to be LSD cells too and are rated at the same capacity as Eneloops.



I have a few, but I don't have any Eneloops so I can't compare. I have been very pleased with them. I have one AAA set in my Tikka XP, one AA set in a UK 4AA (4W incan) and another AA set in a digital camera. In the camera they last 2-3 months, much longer than regular NiMHs (which usually lasted a week or two, sometimes a month).

GP usually claims fairly high current drain capacities for their cells. I haven't seen Recyko's spec sheet, but their 2700 mAh regular NiMH cells have a recommended discharge rate of up to 7.5 Amps. It would be interesting to see how well the Recykos do in a discharge test.


----------



## Gene (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Good point Eugene, (hey, I like that name!), and I wasn't aware Rayovac was calling their brand Hybrids.

Hybrid seems like the perfect name for all of them though as I consider these a NiMH with the long storage life of Li-Ions hence the term "hybrids".


----------



## ltiu (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I remember reading the acromym "LSD" first time and made me wonder if you guys were talking about drugs:

http://www.drugfree.org/Portal/drug_guide/LSD

Then I realized you're all just a bunch of nerds talking about Low Self Discharge (LSD) batteries.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Ahhh...

Another pair of my older Rayovac Hybrids (an even better test than the new ones I got last night) ran my GPSr just peachy today. They might have even gone well into the evening but I shut it down when I get out of the truck at home.

Eneloop testing takes place next week.


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## oldvultureface (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



ltiu said:


> I remember reading the acromym "LSD" first time and made me wonder if you guys were talking about drugs:
> 
> http://www.drugfree.org/Portal/drug_guide/LSD
> 
> Then I realized you're all just a bunch of nerds talking about Low Self Discharge (LSD) batteries.


(Chuckle).


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## Eugene (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Gene said:


> Good point Eugene, (hey, I like that name!), and I wasn't aware Rayovac was calling their brand Hybrids.
> 
> Hybrid seems like the perfect name for all of them though as I consider these a NiMH with the long storage life of Li-Ions hence the term "hybrids".



Its like calling locking pliers vise grips, or an adjustable wrench a crescent wrench, or a reciprocating saw a sawzall, or USB flash drive a memory stick. 
I worked at a PC shop a few years ago and people would call their computer a CPU or hard drive or call a 3.5" floppy a hard disk so you never knew for sure what they were talking about when they were trying to describe a problem.


----------



## Gene (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Well, we still call tissues Kleenex, we still call, (as you say), adjustable wrenches Crescent wrenches, and on and on but folks know what you're talking about. 

I'm not trying to start anything here but "hybrid" is a wonderful name for these cells and it looks like Rayovac trumped everyone with a winning name. I'm betting the name will stick for all these low self-discharge cells.

This is such a minor point I can't believe I'm discussing it!


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Is the charger in the Walmart Eneloop package worth spit?

The b*&^* I talked to at Energizer said they consider 8 hours a good charge and the 2 or so my C Crane takes kills.


----------



## Eugene (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Gene said:


> Well, we still call tissues Kleenex, we still call, (as you say), adjustable wrenches Crescent wrenches, and on and on but folks know what you're talking about.
> 
> I'm not trying to start anything here but "hybrid" is a wonderful name for these cells and it looks like Rayovac trumped everyone with a winning name. I'm betting the name will stick for all these low self-discharge cells.
> 
> This is such a minor point I can't believe I'm discussing it!



The problems comes then if you speak of hybrid cells then we don't know if you mean rayovac's or if your talking about eneloop or another brand.

Its like when someone told my MIL to get a memory stick. She went to the big box computer store and came back with a sony memory stick and called me when it wouldn't fit her USB port. I see a lot of people calling those memory sticks or just sticks.

Plus rayovac screwed me over with renewals, then their NiMH charger that only charged to 75% and then signed an exclusive deal with WalMart for the first year their new batteries were for sale so I had to wait until other brands started appearing in stores. So I'm going to make sure they don't get any free advertising by calling others cells by their name.


----------



## Martini (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



ltiu said:


> I remember reading the acromym "LSD" first time and made me wonder if you guys were talking about drugs:


Funny; when I first saw LSD, I thought limited-slip differential. See, I'm several varieties of nerd.


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## ltiu (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Martini said:


> Funny; when I first saw LSD, I thought limited-slip differential. See, I'm several varieties of nerd.



http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/LSD


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## OhMyGosh (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Why not just call them *long life* NiMH. Not necessarily long service life, but long storage life. Makes sense to me. Most of my rechargeables die from age and not 'cycles' anyway.


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## ltiu (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I am sure battery companies hire "marketing" experts who can delve into the mind of average Joe and determine how best to call a product to get his attention. Gimmicks, crafty words and such apply.

So far we have:

1) Rayovac - Hybrid with electron retention technology (has both the qualities of alkaline and rechargeable, long shelf life and re-usable)

2) Kodak - Pre-charged (use it right away fresh from the store)

3) Sanyo Eneloop - Pre-charged. Ready to use. Long shelf-life

What other marketing gimmicks do we have?


----------



## ltiu (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

... and for rechargeable batteries with long shelf lives and no memory effect issues, let's call them "The Long Life Forgetful" batteries.


----------



## Martini (Jul 7, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



ltiu said:


> 1) Rayovac - Hybrid with electron retention technology (has both the qualities of alkaline and rechargeable, long shelf life and re-usable)
> 
> 2) Kodak - Pre-charged (use it right away fresh from the store)
> 
> ...


"Electron retention technology" is obviously gimmicky, but Kodak and Sanyo are just stating fact. Eneloops _are_ pre-charged, ready to use, and have a long shelf life. If you ask me, Sanyo has made a point of _not_ over-hyping their product.


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## ltiu (Jul 7, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Martini said:


> "Electron retention technology" is obviously gimmicky, but Kodak and Sanyo are just stating fact. Eneloops _are_ pre-charged, ready to use, and have a long shelf life. If you ask me, Sanyo has made a point of _not_ over-hyping their product.



I agree completely. In-fact. I think Sanyo is under packaging their great product. If it were not for you guys, I would have stayed away from it since the packaging is bland. Packaging/marketing does matter to average Joe's like me.


----------



## cave dave (Jul 7, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Most companies are hyping the pre-charged aspect, but for us flash-o-holics that is the least important part. The most important being LSD and ability to handle high current drain.

Most everybody I know still uses Alkalines or the so called "Heavy Duty" though because "they can't be bothered/ can't remember to charge stuff" and rechargeable and charger are "so expensive".

On a related note a guy at work bought a camera (at a good price) from a New York dealer and then they charged him $60 for a crappy 2-bay slow charger and NiCd batteries. (his camera takes 4 batteries). The average consumer has *No Clue*. :duh2: And marketing really doesn't help because other wise "Heavy Duty" batteries would be great for heavy duty uses, right? I think people have learned to ignore the marketing claims and just buy whatever has the prettiest package, a name brand they recognize, or the cheapest.


----------



## etc (Jul 7, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

The best deal on Eneloops is at amazon.com, 8-pack for $20, free shipping if order is over $25. I got several.

I don't place all faith in them, I also got several Maha Powerex 2700 mAh packs that I already have, and no, I don't constantly charge them. They are better if you need lots of power right away. It takes a weeks for them to discharge them to the level the Eneloop, so the low discharge is a moot point if you need to use them now, like in my case.

One thing that I need is a better smart charger, that can take 8 AA cells at a time.


----------



## Eugene (Jul 7, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



etc said:


> The best deal on Eneloops is at amazon.com, 8-pack for $20, free shipping if order is over $25.



Thats an Ok price but not the best. I get 4 packs for $7.99 so it would be $4 cheaper for 8 than amazon. I'd go buy a bunch more but I don't want to buy all my batteries at one time then have to replace them all at the same time 10 years down the road.


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## musicalfruit (Jul 7, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Eugene said:


> Thats an Ok price but not the best. I get 4 packs for $7.99 so it would be $4 cheaper for 8 than amazon.



That's a local instore price, right? If not, who sells for that price online?

Thanks.


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## Trancersteve (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



cave dave said:


> Most companies are hyping the pre-charged aspect, but for us flash-o-holics that is the least important part. The most important being LSD and ability to handle high current drain.
> 
> Most everybody I know still uses Alkalines or the so called "Heavy Duty" though because "they can't be bothered/ can't remember to charge stuff" and rechargeable and charger are "so expensive".
> 
> On a related note a guy at work bought a camera (at a good price) from a New York dealer and then they charged him $60 for a crappy 2-bay slow charger and NiCd batteries. (his camera takes 4 batteries). The average consumer has *No Clue*. :duh2: And marketing really doesn't help because other wise "Heavy Duty" batteries would be great for heavy duty uses, right? I think people have learned to ignore the marketing claims and just buy whatever has the prettiest package, a name brand they recognize, or the cheapest.



I agree with you Cave Dave,

Alot of people I know look down upon recharging with AA/AAAs. I have to keep repeating myself to them that times have changed and if you get a decent charger coupled with more importantly high capacity NiHM batteries, your be firstly amazed how long they will last and secondly how much money you are going to save.

Where I work with our digital cameras. When I first started working there everyone was complaining about the battery life of the cameras they have. I quickly found out they were using low capacity nicad AAs. Since I switched to high capacity NiHM batteries no complants at all. 

Def think alot of people out there need to be educated so to speak that rechargeable battery tech has very much moved on.. and left them in the dark it seems! 

Anyway sorry went bit off topic there, these eneloops do seem very interesting since coming to these forums its the first i've heard about them! Can think of a few instances they could be used for the traveling or camping kinda person. 

Do we think the capacity of these eneloops are going to increase over time?


----------



## Eugene (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I was in the same place not long ago. Every time we wanted to use our digicam it would shutdown after just a few pictures claiming low battery even though I would charge the batteries overnight before we went somewhere. I finally gave up and we started buying Lithium, we went through a few of those 12 packs for $20 that sams club sells before I finally bought some Eneloop in Jan of this year. Between those traditional NiMH and a low quality charger I gave up on re-chargeable for a couple years.


----------



## Hans (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Trancersteve said:


> Do we think the capacity of these eneloops are going to increase over time?



I'm sure they will eventually. 

However, as things stand I don't really think there's much to be gained from using high capacity NiMH's anyway because most high capacity cells don't seem to be all that reliable. I tried a couple of packs of 2500's and 2700's from different manufacturers, and they didn't really live up to expectations - they were all somewhat below the claimed capacity, and several cells started discharging very quickly after a few months of use. 

The highest capacity cells that turned out to be reliable in everyday use were Sanyo 2300's. That's pretty close to the Eneloops, so I don't really see any need to use anything but Eneloops at the moment. So far I haven't had a single Eneloop develop any kind of problem, and I'm using 24 AA's and 16 AAA's at the moment in all kinds of applications.

I actually believe the development of low discharge NiMH cells may well be the most important development in battery technology in the past 5 years or so.

Hans


----------



## Eugene (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Hans said:


> I actually believe the development of low discharge NiMH cells may well be the most important development in battery technology in the past 5 years or so.



I very much agree. I have a few different types of traditional NiMH, everything from 1650mAh and up and none of them ever worked well.
I now have almost 4 dozen AA and 8 AAA Eneloop as they finally work the way batteries should have.
I can't see the capacity improving much in the near future as the only reason you have higher capacity now is they make them slightly larger than spec or make the insulator thinner which also causes the high self discharge.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

All I know is tommorow the third set of "old" Hybrids goes in my GPSr. The day after is the first test of Eneloops and I don't expect anything but smooth sailing!

But nobody ever said if the charger that came with the Walmart pack of Eneloops is worth anything or not...


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## Kentuckian (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Norm said:


> There are 3 AA to D adapters, then you would have a 6000mA D cell.
> Norm


Can I use two of these to run my 2 D-cell lights? Also where would I get these adaptors?


----------



## koala (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

There's a question I have... Sanyo was the one who introduced Eneloops at 2000mAh. Then all the rest of the manufacturers started to offer LSD cells and at a ballpark figures. The cells which has the same specs as Eneloops are no doubt rebadged(real goods) Sanyo or perhaps bought the licensed technology.

So where did all these 1/2 the performance of Sanyo Eneloops cheaper cells come from? Does Sanyo sell Class B performance technology? If not how did they come out with the formula? Did they steal the formula? Or did they just cook up their own?

Something to think about...


----------



## radellaf (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

"Where I work with our digital cameras. When I first started working there everyone was complaining about the battery life of the cameras they have. I quickly found out they were using low capacity nicad AAs. Since I switched to high capacity NiHM batteries no complants at all. "

NiCd AAs? When did you start? I don't think I've even seen NiCd anythings for sale except in RC shops for the past 5 to 7 years or so. I retired a set I bought in 1987 some 4-5 years later and I think got 1500mAh PowerEx cells.

FWIW, for nostalgia, I just ordered some 700mAh NiCd AAs, a couple of the $3 1100mAh SuperCadnica cells, and almost more for a laugh, a 250mAh NiCd AAA.

Seriously, I'm thinking of dumping most of my NiMHs in favor of the Eneloops. They, so far, really are what we all wished rechargeables were from the get-go.


----------



## Bones (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Kentuckian said:


> Can I use two of these to run my 2 D-cell lights? Also where would I get these adaptors?



Yes.

1 AA to 1 D cell:

http://www.geeks.com/

2 AA to 1 D cell:

http://www.dealextreme.com/

4 AA to 1 D cell:

http://www.aventrade.com/

There are also 3 AA to 1 D cell and 8 AA to 2 D cell adaptors available, but I couldn't seem to locate any North American sources today:

http://www.litemania.com/translated


----------



## WDG (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Bones said:


> 4 AA to 1 D cell:
> 
> http://www.aventrade.com/
> 
> ...


 
Am I correct that the D Maglite will need to be bored to take a 4AA-1D adaptor? Would a 3AA-1D fit without boring?


----------



## Hans (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> But nobody ever said if the charger that came with the Walmart pack of Eneloops is worth anything or not...



Is that the small Sanyo charger that only takes two AA or AAA cells at a time? I got one of those and use it when I'm travelling because it's so small. It works just fine.

Hans


----------



## Eugene (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



koala said:


> There's a question I have... Sanyo was the one who introduced Eneloops at 2000mAh. Then all the rest of the manufacturers started to offer LSD cells and at a ballpark figures. The cells which has the same specs as Eneloops are no doubt rebadged(real goods) Sanyo or perhaps bought the licensed technology.
> 
> So where did all these 1/2 the performance of Sanyo Eneloops cheaper cells come from? Does Sanyo sell Class B performance technology? If not how did they come out with the formula? Did they steal the formula? Or did they just cook up their own?
> 
> Something to think about...



Where are you seeing cells with 1/2 the capacity?


----------



## Kentuckian (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

How would using the 2AA-D effect light output and run time?


----------



## barkingmad (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

If they are parallel you would get more runtime but light output should be about the same.


----------



## robm (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



WDG said:


> Am I correct that the D Maglite will need to be bored to take a 4AA-1D adaptor? Would a 3AA-1D fit without boring?



The 4AA-D adapter fit in my D Maglites, but only with 'thin' cells - 4 x Energizer rechargeable fit, but 4 x Eneloops don't 

Also the 3AA-D adapter from LITEmania (available from CPFMarketplace) is a serial adapter, so 3.6-4.5V in a D size adapter.


----------



## Kentuckian (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Right on!


----------



## Gazoo (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



koala said:


> So where did all these 1/2 the performance of Sanyo Eneloops cheaper cells come from?



I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I have not read anywhere about any LSD batteries having 1/2 the performance of eneloops. Care to point to where you heard this?


----------



## koala (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Sorry, What I mean was, some LSD cells has higher self discharge rate than Eneloop but lower than normal NiMH.



Eugene said:


> Where are you seeing cells with 1/2 the capacity?


----------



## Eugene (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



koala said:


> Sorry, What I mean was, some LSD cells has higher self discharge rate than Eneloop but lower than normal NiMH.



Ok, sure there are some differences just like there are different capacities, but nothing like half the capacity.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Hans said:


> Is that the small Sanyo charger that only takes two AA or AAA cells at a time? I got one of those and use it when I'm travelling because it's so small. It works just fine.
> 
> Hans



No this one is rather sleek and holds 4 AAA or AA. 

I generally use my C Crane Quick Charger, but if this one will do 4 overnight that might work.


----------



## DavidD (Jul 10, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I got my first Eneloops a while back, when Wal-Mart first started carrying the Eneloop + 4 bay charger package. Like them a lot. I have been trying to 'test' them in various things: flashlights, cameras, etc. I have been pleased so far. The 4 bay charger seems to be good as far as I can tell, other than it is SLOW! It can charge 1 to 4, independantly, but only has 1 LED to display charging status. Works similar to my Energizer 15 minute in that regard. I don't know about this absolutely, but have read that it is a smart charger with sensing capabilities rather than being timer based. It does take different amount of time to charge cells that I know are drained to different levels, so I would agree with it's 'smartness'. IIRC, it charges AA at 300 and AAA at 150, so it can take 6-9 hours to charge Eneloops or some E2500 & D2650s I have.

We have an hhgregg locally, but I've never been in it before. I went today & found the 4 packs for $7.99 (both AA & AAA). This is the best price I have seen for the both sizes, beating out batterybob.com. I got 3 AA packs (12) & 1 AAA pack (4). I am looking forward to replacing some 2500 & 2650s with Eneloops. The slow charge is not that big of an issue to me. They can charge overnight as, I believe, it quits charging completely (or very slow trickle?) when done. Then they go into my battery storage tray where they slowwwlly discharge 

Just a thought about the high discharge of the E2500s and D2650s. My only two chargers that I have had previous to the Eneloop charger were an Energizer 30 minute and then an Energizer 15 minute. The 30 minute left the batteries very warm - probably too warm. I went through a lot of cells using the 30 minute charger. The 15 minute charger, I think, actually works better because it has the built in fan. The cells don't get as quite as hot, but still fairly warm - probably still too warm. Heat kills cells. Another thing that I have done that probably has hastened them to the grave, was over-discharged most of my cells. Easy to do in flashlights, especially when you use them in tail stand position for late night low level lighting. My point in bringing up my history is to add that I have 6 E2500s that still are working great and have new-like low self-discharge. 2 I put into a cordless phone. They don't get overdischarged and they get slow-charged. Granted, those 2, I don't exactly know how long they would last out of the phone and in a flashlight, but they still are going strong after 3-4 (or several) years. The other 4 I can talk about a little more confidently. They were placed one of those game cubes with the joystick coming out the top, with Pac-Man and Galaga and such. I use it some, the kids use it some. The screen gets static when the batteries are getting low, so they then get charged before getting over-discharged. They have been fast charged, but not over-discharged. My kids played with it for a while this past weekend after not playing with it for months. Still plenty of juice. I thought I might see how much was left before I replaced them with Eneloops, so I played some Dig-Dug tonight. 500,000 point game, no static. Still going strong. So for some reason not all E2500s die an early death and maybe, just maybe heat & overdischarge play a role.?.


----------



## wptski (Jul 10, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Eugene said:


> Ok, sure there are some differences just like there are different capacities, but nothing like half the capacity.


Half the self discharge rate not half the capacity.


----------



## Gazoo (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



wptski said:


> Half the self discharge rate not half the capacity.



We are talking about LSD batteries right? They are all comparable. Meaning they are all within around 10 to 20% of each other as far as capacity and discharge rate.


----------



## ah-see (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



wptski said:


> Half the self discharge rate not half the capacity.


Half the discharge rate would be a good thing, so in this case i think you mean twice the discharge rate.


----------



## ICUDoc (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Sorry for the cheeky interruption- what is a good charger for Eneloops that is faster than the one packaged with them and monitors cells individually?
Many thanks!!


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Just a note here. The Eneloops as they came out of the package ran my GPSr all day yesterday and according to the battery "gauge" on the GPSr had as much left over as the Hybrids.

I'm going to try to get enough Hybrids/Eneloops to not need to charge more than every two weeks. And I intend to keep notes on which cell goes in which charger etc,


----------



## StefanFS (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I got the VARTA Ready 2 Use (Vartas variety of LSD) a while ago and since then I have managed to get most of my useless high capacity Nimh cells refunded. All standard Nimh cells I have left are some Sony 2100 mAh and some Kodak 2100 mAh which work well. All the others, Varta-Duracell etc. with capacities of 2500-2700 mAh were totally useless, lost their charge in days. It was easy to get refunds even on year old cells so the problem must be well known. The LSD cells are wonderful, I advise family and friends to get them.


----------



## Bones (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



koala said:


> So where did all these 1/2 the performance of Sanyo Eneloops cheaper cells come from?





Gazoo said:


> I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I have not read anywhere about any LSD batteries having 1/2 the performance of eneloops. Care to point to where you heard this?





koala said:


> Sorry, What I mean was, some LSD cells has higher self discharge rate than Eneloop but lower than normal NiMH.





Gazoo said:


> We are talking about LSD batteries right? They are all comparable. Meaning they are all within around 10 to 20% of each other as far as capacity and discharge rate.



Seems to me that koala's statement errors on the conservative rather than the excessive side.

The Sanyo Eneloop claims to retain 85% of its capacity after one year. A 15% self-discharge rate.

The Uniross Hybrio claims to retain 70% of its capacity over the same period. A 30% self-discharge rate.

Since 30% is twice the self-discharge rate of 15%, is not the Hybrio's self-discharge performance 100% poorer than that of the Eneloop?

Please note this post only quotes the self-discharge rates stated by both manufacturers, it should not be construed as a comment on the actual performance of either cell.


----------



## koala (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

It gets more and more complicated... okay it's not 1/2 the performance, I am making it up. It's something like 6/8 the performance of Eneloops, discharge rate.

So how did all these manufacturers come up with the formula/ingredients so quickly?


----------



## altis (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Bones said:


> The Sanyo Eneloop claims to retain 85% of its capacity after one year. A 15% self-discharge rate. The Uniross Hybrio claims to retain 70% of its capacity over the same period. A 30% self-discharge rate..


 This suggests that the Uniross Hybrio is the same as, or derived from, the Matsushita / Yuasa product. http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cach...-self-discharge+nimh&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=uk


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## barkingmad (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



altis said:


> This suggests that the Uniross Hybrio is the same as, or derived from, the Matsushita / Yuasa product. http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:dR9H_DxEWmMJ:www.eetimes.com/issue/mn/showArticle.jhtml%3FarticleID%3D173403256+yuasa+low-self-discharge+nimh&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=uk


 
Possibly... possibly not... it just means they have the same (or similar) characteristics?


----------



## altis (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Indeed, that's all we can say for certain. However, given the way of the world - and patents - I would be willing to bet that there are actually only a very few underlying LSD technologies - and quite possibly only two.


For example:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7022434.html
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5888665.html


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

What I KNOW to be true after today...

A pair of Eneloop AAs ran my GPSr from about 8AM to about 6:15PM and after a rest of about 2 hours another 30 minutes or so to the house.

At the very best that 2500s ever did, they'd run it through bowling. But lately making it to 5:30PM has been a stretch.

I think Eneloops and almost as good Hybrids are the best thing since sliced bread!


----------



## the servents of twilight (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I have to agree and disagree. Like some others have said before - it really depends on how you use the lights. I have a couple of lights in my glove box that have rayovac hybrids in them. They have been in there for 6 months and they still don't need a recharge. I have a ROP 7D cell with 14 hybrids that I use around the house. I use it almost every day, but only for a couple of minutes. It lasted 6 months before I had to recharge the batteries. I also have extra cells that I don't have to worry about using or charging on a monthly basis. I also have a 7 cell ROP that I used all winter with Titaniam cells 2600 and 2700. I like the extra capacity - I charge them once a week. The only thing is I never noticed any difference between the 2 (2600 vs. 2700). Now I do (not using it daily because it is summer) - the 2600s hold there charge longer. The hybrids and the Enloops have just as much, if not more, capacity as alkalines.


----------



## barkingmad (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



the servents of twilight said:


> I have to agree and disagree. Like some others have said before - it really depends on how you use the lights. I have a couple of lights in my glove box that have rayovac hybrids in them. They have been in there for 6 months and they still don't need a recharge. I have a ROP 7D cell with 14 hybrids that I use around the house. I use it almost every day, but only for a couple of minutes. It lasted 6 months before I had to recharge the batteries. I also have extra cells that I don't have to worry about using or charging on a monthly basis. I also have a 7 cell ROP that I used all winter with Titaniam cells 2600 and 2700. I like the extra capacity - I charge them once a week. The only thing is I never noticed any difference between the 2 (2600 vs. 2700). Now I do (not using it daily because it is summer) - the 2600s hold there charge longer. The hybrids and the Enloops have just as much, if not more, capacity as alkalines.


 
That's basically correct - some 2500-2700mah cells will have more capacity than Eneloops over a short period (i.e. a week or two) but it's fairly close.

I have tested quite a few cells claiming 2500-2700mah capacities - some (for instance the Sanyo 2700) were within about 5% - others were much less - 10%+ off - i.e 2250-2500mah and that is straight off the charger!

The point is that many high capacity cells (and cells designed for high drain!) also seem to suffer higher self discharge rates - so your 2500-2700mah (claimed) cells might come off the charger at 2300-2500mah and be down to around 2000mah (the actual capacity of Eneloops) in a matter of days to a week+

There is still a market for the better high capacity cells - but their capacity benefit is only if they are used completely and almost right away.


----------



## BlackDecker (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I noticed that Circuit City is still running the 8 pack of AA Sanyo Eneloops for $19.99... not a bad price from a brick & mortar store.


----------



## lyyyghtmaster (Jul 15, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I agree LSD cells are superior in long-term apps. I've still got a bunch of the 1700 ~ 2000 mAh cells of various brands, and many are still working where many of my newer, high-capacity cells have developed high internal resistance and rapid discharge.  However, even the old ones self-discharge fully in a couple months.

I use LSD in many items that get little use, but I thought my EDC would be a good place for high capacity cells. This torch had D2650s for a year, getting about 100 recharges total, at 500 mA in a C204F or BC900. Last week, I had trouble getting one of them out of the Maha- the positive terminal had bulged out at an angle so the cell was about 1mm longer! Not very confidence-inspiring!  Then I went to LSD cells. Now I know they will stay charged in proportion to my use of the light. I won't bother to top them off every few nights anymore, unless I use the light a lot.

Does anyone know if the Circuit City sale on Eneloops is still going on into the week of July 15? 

Does anyone know if/when sizes other than AAA/AA LSD will be available? Like 9V?


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 15, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

+1 on the Circuit City ?

I'd like to get a pack of eight Eneloops, but will settle for Hybrids if not because for my use I don't see any difference.


----------



## eav2k (Jul 16, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Actually you can get 4 AA to D adapters as well, gives you a 8000mA D cell. However the fit is very tight, I have one 3 D cell flashlight where the 4 AA adapters fit, and another where they do not. One source is here.


----------



## BlackDecker (Jul 18, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



lyyyghtmaster said:


> Does anyone know if the Circuit City sale on Eneloops is still going on into the week of July 15?



Yes, the 8 pack of AA Sanyo Eneloops are still listed for $19.99 on the Circuit City website. Makes me think this is a permanent price decrease and not just a weekly special...

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sany...59047/catOid/-12929/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 18, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Semi-related to Eneloop in that both are LSD..

A pair of as-they-came Rayovac Hybrids ran my GPSr for 13.5 hours today and the low battery message had not yet appeared.

I will try to get by a CC to get Eneloop, but I find nothing wrong with Hybrids at least for MY useage!!!


----------



## barkingmad (Jul 19, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> Semi-related to Eneloop in that both are LSD..
> 
> A pair of as-they-came Rayovac Hybrids ran my GPSr for 13.5 hours today and the low battery message had not yet appeared.
> 
> I will try to get by a CC to get Eneloop, but I find nothing wrong with Hybrids at least for MY useage!!!


 
Certainly nothing wrong - hybrid / LSD batteries are a great improvement to overcome one of the issues many people experience with NiMH batteries.

The only issue is that some people prefer one brand of LSD over another although from what I heard they are only actually made by 2 companies and many others just rebrand / license the technology from them.

In my experience the Sanyo Eneloop have been fantastic - supporting higher current draws and lower published discharge rate (Sanyo claim 15% over 12 months - think the others claim 30% over 12 months).


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 19, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Today the Hybrids ran the GPSr for 11.5 hours with at least another hour (and probably more) left.

Also today the Walmart in Livingston only had one 4 pack of AA Hybrids, and I wanted at LEAST 8. So I decided to try Kodak Pre-Charged 2100.

As the Kodaks came from the package(s) V varried slightly from 1.30x to 1.31x. After I go through 8 more Hybrids I'll give these a try.


----------



## Learjet (Jul 22, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I absolutely love my Eneloops. With those old Energizer 2500mah pieces of #$%^ everytime I would pick up the digital camera to use it the camera would be dead. Now with Eneloops in the camera it's always ready to go. Same goes for my AA EDC lights.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 22, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I haven't found ANYTHING so far to make me dis-like Hybrid/Eneloop/Kodak LSD batteries!

I did use my Energizer coupon to get an 8 pack of CHINA made 2500s and have slow charged them up to 1.4V.

Just not sure what I'll use them for!


----------



## Handlobraesing (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Duracell 2650/Sanyo 2700 are great and hold charge for months when you charge them up brand new and test them out a few months later.

Put about 25 cycles, then they'll be leaking charge like a bucket with a hole.


----------



## Hans (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Handlobraesing said:


> Duracell 2650/Sanyo 2700 are great and hold charge for months when you charge them up brand new and test them out a few months later.
> Put about 25 cycles, then they'll be leaking charge like a bucket with a hole.



I've been using Sanyos for many years now; my oldest set is rated at 1600, and still holding its charge pretty well. In my experience the Sanyo 2100 and 2300 are also pretty good, with the usual discharge rates of about 0.8-1 % per day. The 2500 are also OK, even though I've had a few cells that started discharging pretty fast after some 30 cycles. The 2700 are not reliable at all. Far too many failures. 

The Eneloops are in a different class altogether. Like I said before in a different thread, these cells have been the most important innovation in battery technology for years. With Eneloops and the other LSD cells around there's no real reason to resort to alkalines anymore, except perhaps in emergencies.

Hans


----------



## Lightingguy321 (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Just as a quick reminder as to how technology advances, when a new product comes out at first, there might be a few problems (small most of the time that won't hinder how the product works) that need to be worked out, but eventually the product after a 1/2 year or so will become better than it was initially, so sometimes it is good to be patient and wait for a new release of the product that may have added features.


----------



## Bones (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Lightingguy321 said:


> Just as a quick reminder as to how technology advances, when a new product comes out at first, there might be a few problems (small most of the time that won't hinder how the product works) that need to be worked out, but eventually the product after a 1/2 year or so will become better than it was initially, so sometimes it is good to be patient and wait for a new release of the product that may have added features.



Although not well known in the west until the latter part of last year, Eneloop batteries have been on sale in Japan since Nov of 2005, and total shipments should soon hit the 30 million mark.

These facts, coupled with the continous production improvements mandated by kaizen, suggest to me that this already a mature product with ample time in service to have revealed any problems with their performance.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

They so far just keep on "keeping on" by running my GPSr every day just like the 2500s USED to.


----------



## GaryF (Aug 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I went to use my digital camera a couple of days ago, and was shocked to find it dead. This just had not happened to me since I switched over to Eneloops. What I forgot was that I had put in some Sanyo 2700s a few weeks back and had forgotten about them. The 2700's had completely self discharged in less than a month.

The only reasons I keep non lsd batteries around is first that they are good for heavy use activity over a day or two, where I benefit from a little extra capacity. An example was my vacation, where I used them in a camera every day and charged them every night. But the other / main reason I keep them is that I can't bring myself to toss relatively new batteries just because I found some that are a little more convenient.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 9, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Well, all is not peaches and cream with LSD batteries.

A pair didn't last through bowling last night. But then NO regular NimH have in weeks or months anyhow!

Since I VERY VERY rarely ever use my M*g85 I think I'll get the LSDs out of it and use 6 in another light, 2 in yet another and the last one in a 1AA light.


----------



## Hikaru (Aug 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I'm not sure if this is exactly the right thread for this but I've read other eneloop treads and didn't see anyone ask it directly:

Will pretty much any nimh charger work with eneloops?

Specifically I have a la crosse BC-900 and a couple of old raovac 4 AA/AAA bay (independent), that I'm using. What's the best charging current?

thanks


----------



## Power Me Up (Aug 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Hikaru said:


> I'm not sure if this is exactly the right thread for this but I've read other eneloop treads and didn't see anyone ask it directly:
> 
> Will pretty much any nimh charger work with eneloops?


Yep - they're pretty much no different to other NiMh cells when it comes to charging.


> Specifically I have a la crosse BC-900 and a couple of old raovac 4 AA/AAA bay (independent), that I'm using. What's the best charging current?


There's a lot of different opinions when it comes to charging current. I think the general consensus is to charge at between 0.5C and 1C - i.e. 1000mA to 2000mA. I charge my Eneloops on my C9000 chargers at 1000mA...


----------



## Norm (Aug 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I love this thread 150 post mostly saying how good Eneloops are and the thread title still reads


> *Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*


 
Norm


----------



## tarpon6 (Aug 11, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I bought my Eneloops on Amazon.com. 19.99 / 8, free shipping, and no tax..


----------



## guiri (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Guys, where do I get Eneloops at a good price, how much are they (AA and AAA's) and where do I get a decent priced AND good charger for a larger quantity of batteries. Say 6-10 at one time.

Also, will I be able to mix batteries with partially charged and so on when charging?

I have around 30 wall clocks and thought I'd switch to rechargeables.

I wonder if two eneloops will do it at 2x1.2v? as opposed to two alkalines at 2x1.5?

I also just bought a Panasonic cordless phone which takes only two aaa's at 550mAh.

Should I replace them with eneloops or a high capacity ni-mh and if so, which one?

Thanks

George


----------



## edc3 (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I can't answer your other questions, but here is some info on where to buy Eneloops.

I bought 4 AA Eneloops with a charger at Walmart for ~$20. I bought an 8-pack at Circuit City for $20, and an 8-pack at Fry's for around $23. As tarpon6 mentioned, Amazon has a good price with no tax and free shipping. Also, check out this post regarding the Eneloop Power Pack which will be available at Costco soon.

Not sure what charger to recommend to charge 6-10 at a time. If you bought two 4-packs with charger you could charge 8 at a time - I've read good things about the Eneloop charger.



guiri said:


> Guys, where do I get Eneloops at a good price, how much are they (AA and AAA's) and where do I get a decent priced AND good charger for a larger quantity of batteries. Say 6-10 at one time.
> 
> Also, will I be able to mix batteries with partially charged and so on when charging?
> 
> ...


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## musicalfruit (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

You can also buy the 4xAA with charger online from Buy.com/ANTonline and use the $10 Googlecheckout coupon. It's $16.88 + shipping - $10.


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## guiri (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Where do I get the Google coupon?

Does anyone know why Alkalines are 1.5 vand rechargeables are 1.2v?


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## SilverFox (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Hello Guiri,

Different chemistry.

I am not sure you will get the full benefit from the low self discharge cells using them in clocks. Perhaps you could volunteer to do some testing for us...

I would suggest getting a 4 pack and trying them out. If they meet your expectations, then go for the rest.

Tom


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## Turbo DV8 (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Gene said:


> I'm not trying to start anything here but "hybrid" is a wonderful name for these cells and it looks like Rayovac trumped everyone with a winning name. I'm betting the name will stick for all these low self-discharge cells.


 

I'm thinking the term "hybrid" is becoming the "Turbo" of the new millenium. Blame Toyota! I have begun to see "hybrid" popping up more and more pertaining to unrelated things just as a way to tell people, "Oooh, it must be cool!"


----------



## TorchBoy (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

George, I'm not convinced you'll get good value for money by putting rechargeables in wall clocks. It would take a long time to get payback, if each charge-discharge cycle lasts a year or more. The wall clocks we have here use very little power, and a single AA lasts for many months or even years. We've found that an AA that's too flat to use with other devices is still fine for clocks. We're using rechargeables for most things but our pile of mostly used AAs is still growing because they get used on clocks so slowly.

Having said that, we don't have 30 wall clocks, and each of ours only uses one AA cell. Eneloops, if anything, would certainly be the way to go to replace alkaline because they won't be self discharging several times faster than the clock is using them, like normal high capacity NiMHs would be.


----------



## Bones (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



guiri said:


> Where do I get the Google coupon?



It's not actually a coupon. You have to sign-up for GoogleCheckout while making your 
Buy.com purchase and you will receive the 10 dollar bonus.

GoolgeCheckout is an online payments system competing with PayPal for your business.

I signed-up for it some time ago to qualify for a discount on a fairly substantial purchase from ThomasDistributing.

The discount was 3 percent at the time, but I see it's now reduced to 2 percent percent.

Still, it costs you nothing and it's always nice to have an online payment alternative.


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## jrminky (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

For what it's worth, today I picked up a couple 4-packs of Enerloops at HHGregg for $7.99/each. Looks like they're on sale this week though I saw no mention of it in their weekly newspaper ad.


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## guiri (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Ian,

Another reason i wanted to do it is environment. I hate filling the trash with bad batteries and as a matter of fact, I save all my old ones till I can find a place that'll take them (any suggestions by the way).

They WILL save me money in the long run AND I like the idea of rechargeables vs regular, HOWEVER, the difference in voltage worries me.

Can you or anyone talk to me about that..

I have 30 or maybe even 40 clocks and until a friend got me some at Sams, I was paying regular store prices which ARE high for something you're gonna throw away. THe way I see it, the others are an investment.


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## TorchBoy (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



guiri said:


> the difference in voltage worries me.


When you put a load (electrical load, that is) on a battery the voltage drops. The more load, the lower the voltage drops. The chemistry of the battery also affects how the voltage drops - alkaline can drop quite a lot at high load, but NiMH drop much less, and Eneloops are particularly good at holding their voltage - another reason the title of this thread isn't right. But this isn't so big an advantage since the load a typical clock puts on a battery isn't very much.

However, half or more of the life of an alkaline will probably be under the nominal 1.2V of a NiMH cell anyway, so to cut it short, you have nothing to worry about there. The voltage will be fine, and it'll hold steadier for the life of the battery.


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## guiri (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Alright, that's what I needed. A definite answer.

Hey, do you know why I can't do a QUICK REPLY?

It says something about clicking above to activate it..?

Thanks

George


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## TorchBoy (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

At the bottom right of each post there's a Quote button with a quill and paper and the word "Quote", then a Quick Reply button which just has a quill and paper on it. Some forums require that button be pressed, some don't.


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## guiri (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Ah, thanks

George


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## NeilR (Aug 13, 2007)

*Eneloop maintenance?*

Hi guys and gals,

I'm new here- first post - so I want to thank everyone for all the legwork done here investigating all this Battery Voodoo and especially the C9000 research.

My interest in batteries is mainly for my Nikon speedlights, where capacity and performance under high current draw is important. 

After reading this thread, I can see where LSD's would be helpful in all other gizmos that require AA/AAA. 

I just ordered a C9000 and a C801D, mainly to manage my existing (all AA) 12 Panasonic 2100mAh and 4 Powerex 2400's, plus a dozen Powerex 2700's that I ordered at the same time. I need 20 AA's to handle my pair of speedlights (one set as backup- always need a backup!). I've read all the pro's and cons to LSD and I figure I'll give these new 2700's a chance and see how bad the SD rate really is over time. The C9000 will give me the answer. I'm a bit of an electronics geek and build headphone amps, including one using 15xAAA in a sealed case integrated with the amp (with integrated DIY 2 hour charger using the MC33340 controller chip), and a number of portables using 1 or 2 9V NiMH's (which aren't very effective).

Anyway... my question is this: what maintenance is recommended for Eneloops? I don't see much discussion of this. I know it was suggested they don't need a break in since they come fully charged (makes sense), but what about periodic reforming (break in on the C9000)? For me, at this point, any LSDs I buy would be used in devices that run a month to several months or more on a charge. Things like A/V remotes where I previously threw in an Alkie and used it till it died. Although Alk's run for years sometimes in these remotes, the idea of getting 5-10 years from a battery and never having to buy a disposable again is appealing to me. I hate disposables and I usually pay through the nose because when I need them, I really need them and don't have time to mail order in bulk and I don't like leaving bulk lots laying around, even in the fridge.

(If my C9000 proves to me that hte SD rate is as bad as often suggested here, I might become an eneloop convert too :twothumbs )

Neil


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## SilverFox (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop maintenance?*

Hello Neil,

Welcome to CPF.

Also, welcome to the low self discharge battery test group...  

These cells are too new to give you an answer to your question. Testing is on going, but it is still too early to understand what causes these cells to deteriorate. So far, they just go, and go, and go...

Tom


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## NeilR (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Thanks, Tom. I have admired your tenacity when delving into all the voodoo. Your work with the C9000 convinced me to buy it and I feel like I understand the quirks.

A little off topic...I've noticed that you always add a disclaimer when discussing the 0.1C break-in charge and how it might affect a fully charged battery. My portable headphone amp with 15xAAA is configured such that when used on AC power, the charger is always running. It quickly terminates fast charge if the batteries are charged (withing 5-10 minutes; never measured it), and then does a continuous ~0.1C charge. That has always bothered me, but due to case limitations I didn't want to add a switch to turn off the charger, which is the best solution. I have never had any indication that the batteries run hot, nor have I seen any obvious indication that it has adversely affected the life. I have run that amp for many hours with fully charged AAA's (Sanyo fancy label 900ma) cooking at 0.1C. To bring this back on topic, depending on my results with some planned tests with the C9000, I could see possibly converting that pack to eneloop, should the performance degrade to the point where my real world runtime is same or better than with conventional NiMH.

Here is that amp, in case you are curious.







I ordered 10 eneloop AA's from batterybob today (as a result of this thread, among other readings here). You guys have dragged me, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century . At worst it should be cheap entertainment and then I will always have well charged AA's laying around when I have a sudden need.


Neil


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## Anders (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop maintenance?*



NeilR said:


> I know it was suggested they don't need a break in since they come fully charged (makes sense),
> 
> Neil



Hello NeilR and Welcome to CPF.

Eneloop doesn't charge them full when they deliver them, roughly 75% is the number i've heard.

Anders


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## NeilR (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop maintenance?*



Anders said:


> Hello NeilR and Welcome to CPF.
> 
> Eneloop doesn't charge them full when they deliver them, roughly 75% is the number i've heard.
> 
> Anders


 

Thanks, Anders. I knew that from what I read here. Don't listen to what I have to say, listen to what I meant :naughty: . 

(You guys have some great icons in this forum software)

I think I saw some discussion by Tom suggesting break in might not be necessary, but I realize that it's too early to make any absolute calls on that. I'm going to skip it because my C9000 is booked up for a month already, before the eneloops come in.

Neil


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## Gazoo (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I skipped the break in on my eneloops. They are very consistent and once you get to playing with them on your C-9000, I think you will agree. I used the refresh/analyze feature of the C-9000 and found they were at about 75% capacity. This applied to both the AA and AAA batteries I received. Bear in mind however they had been sitting for 11 months when I received them.. The manufacture dates on mine were Aug. 2006.


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## NeilR (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Thanks, Gazoo. I think 75% out of the box for a year old set is *very* impressive. That means that, even if I were using it in a low drain app such as an A/V remote, one refresh/charge a year is low maintenance and ensures the device runs more or less forever as long as I do an annual maintenance, more or less. I hate it when I click the remote and nothing happens. I'm too cheap to throw away alk's ahead of their demise and too lazy to get out a DMM and check them on occasion.


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## Gazoo (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Yup, I put the eneloops in my remotes and plan on doing maintenance on them, at least once a year. I am using eneloops in every thing I can. I need to get some more...lol. BTW, I ordered mine from Battery Bob too. Great company to deal with.

I hate alkaline batteries because I have had bad luck with them leaking.


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## SilverFox (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Hello Neil,

Continual charging is not good because it promotes large crystal growth within the cell which limits the cells performance, and because the seals on the cell are not perfect and continual charging cause the electrolyte to dry out once again effecting the cells performance.

I would suggest you use your amp as a battery operated device rather than as an AC device with battery back up...

You may also be able to adjust your trickle charge rate lower. Remember that if you put low self discharge rate cells in there, the effects of over charging will be magnified because the cells don't self discharge. In this case you may be better off with the cells that you are using.

Tom


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## VidPro (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



SilverFox said:


> Hello Neil,
> 
> In this case you may be better off with the cells that you are using.
> 
> Tom


 
that was one thing i though of when i saw that setup, a nice matched set of sanyo cells in there working right already.:thumbsup: then if its Often hooked to ac, there would be less need of some special LCD cell.

also with that setup it looks like you could seperate them into singles to do a single cycle every once in a while , as opposed to trying to cycle them in series which would be worse than not cycling them.

course if he is going to switch to AAs instead of many little scrawney batteries, that would be good too.


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## NeilR (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I agree with everything you said, Tom. I never leave that amp powered up unecessarily so it's cooking time is limited. I don't use it at home because of this issue; I have a more favored AC desktop unit. But when I travel, that is my amp of choice and I don't have an alternative. I like to keep the batteries topped off for when I do need it portable so it can be a no-win deal.

I have also noted that battery makers generally suggest that a 0.1C constant charge can be tolerated for up to a year at a time (which has been mentioned here), but I am not sure if the engineers write that stuff, or the marketing guys that are trying to boost replacement battery sales 

My comment was more along the lines of concerns about short term overcooking at 0.1C, meaning a hew hours, or even an occasional full day, and just to relate my own anecdotal experience with my very unusal configuration. This is also hotly debated by the headphone amp DIY crowd.

My plan was to add a switch to the charge circuit, but only if I experienced premature battery failure, which has not happened yet, BUT my in transit C9000 has not weighed in with it's opinion on that. My amp actually has a very stable discharge rate, but I just never kept accurate records and have not timed a full discharge in quite some time.


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## SilverFox (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Hello Neil,

From what you have described, you should be good to go. I don't for see any major issues.

The 0.1C charge rate is easily handled by cells, even if they are fully charged, for short periods of time. About the only issue of concern is what you based your 0.1C charge rate at...

The Sanyo AAA 900 mAh cell lists its minimum capacity (for a new cell) as 840 mAh. If we use cells until they are down to 80% of their initial capacity, that means that the cells could get as low as 672 mAh. Hopefully, your 0.1C charging rate is around 70 mA...

Tom


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## TorchBoy (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



SilverFox said:


> Continual charging is not good because it promotes large crystal growth within the cell which limits the cells performance, and because the seals on the cell are not perfect ...


Tom, does that have anything to do with this thread?


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## SilverFox (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Hello Ian,

The "seals on the cell are not perfect" comment may apply...

Tom


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## NeilR (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



VidPro said:


> that was one thing i though of when i saw that setup, a nice matched set of sanyo cells in there working right already.:thumbsup: then if its Often hooked to ac, there would be less need of some special LCD cell.
> 
> also with that setup it looks like you could seperate them into singles to do a single cycle every once in a while , as opposed to trying to cycle them in series which would be worse than not cycling them.
> 
> course if he is going to switch to AAs instead of many little scrawney batteries, that would be good too.


 
Vidpro,

What do you mean by a special LCD cell?

Good idea about cycling them individually. I don't know what adverse impacts, if any, come from of recharging these packs in series. All of the DIY portable amps do the same, although 15 cells is about the biggest I've seen, except from some very custom excesses that people try from time to time. I'd like to do a forming procedure but that will take 8+ days! I almost bought two of the C9000's but good sense got the better of me.

I also know that I will develop bad cells in a 15 cell pack and the C9000 will help me to keep up with that. I've never tinkered with this (it's easy to test, I guess), but I assume my pack's discharge capacity is linked to the weakest cell.

I would DEARLY love to swap them for AA. It is a problem with the case size. As you can see from my images, the entire package (amp board + charger board) was designed for that specific case, which is a 2" tall case. I was told that AA's would be very tight, if they fit at all, but the main problem is that only 10 AA's fit on the board. DIY high end audio has certain obsessions, and one of them is delivering high voltage to high impedence headphones, which I use myself. I have considered an outboard pack in a matching 1" tall case. I think I can fit 15-20 AA's in a 1.2" tall case, which is available. I decided against it at the time because it might not get much use. Here, eneloops, are causing me to revisit that idea. A 24v 2aH pack would be transportable headhone amp nirvana. That would be a dedicated case and AC powered during charge only, of course.

The whole DIY portable headphone thing is capacity limited. I thought that amp would pull about 50ma, but the output buffer used more current than I anticipated and actually draws about 100-140ma depending on the bias levels (more=better sound). I never got the run time I was expecting and almost always take the batteries all the way down each time I use it, which is typically out-doors on my patio.

I looked at some Lithium ideas, but I keep getting put back by that little warning on all the web sites:

- Always charge in a fire-proof (read: bomb-proof) container

I figure I know just about enough about this stuff to burn my house down 

More seriously, I just don't want to design my devices such that it requires attended operation or other inordinate attention. I like to be able to plug my amps in for a charge and then go out to dinner or whatever. I guess you flashlight guys have been through all that but I haven't done any Lithium research here.

I do have some 9V truly portable amps and there the capacity problems are extreme (9v NiMH suck big time). I'm looking at and mulling over those new fangled 9V 500mAh lithiums. I draw around 50ma on my small portables so that would be a whole new experience.

P.S. I read with interest all the discussion of recharge temps up to 135-160F with the C9000 in 2A charge mode. My 15 cell pack's charge controller does -DeltaV plus either a time based backup cutoff or temperature based (but not both). I configured a thermistor that touches a battery in the center of the pack for 45C. That is very conservative, of course, but I used a datasheet's graph of temp vs charge to pick the expected temp. It works well indoors, not well outdoors or in the summer without the A/C on because of the higher ambient room temp. I reasoned that, worst case, the 0.1C "trickle charge" would top it off in a couple hours and I usually let it cook after the termination to ensure a good top-off.


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## VidPro (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

well your amp (assuming YOU assembled it) is a work of art in itself, you didnt miss a thing.

i was just saying with the batteries removable, you could take them out once or twice a year, and cycle them as seperate units, which helps to full cycle them, and re-balance a bit, and of course with a 9000 test them, you will know how they are doing. we do that with the 12V belt packs here, but not often, the rest of the time its fast charge for a while then finish with a dumb slow charge.

it LOOKS like you could squeak the case down a notch or 2 and get say 5 AAs in, but i didnt know they were ALL in series, , high voltage like your saying, i thought it might be series parellel. and so would take less AAs.


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## NeilR (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



SilverFox said:


> Hello Neil,
> 
> From what you have described, you should be good to go. I don't for see any major issues.
> 
> ...


 
Actually, Tom, I have to eat some crow. I'm not scattered brained, honest, but this thread prompted me to uncase my amp and verify my config. I'm actually running about a 35mA trickle charge. or about .03 to .05C through the life of the cells (700-900mAh). This is a simple resistor based trickle charge circuit and I have that (now 100R) resistor socketed. I recall going through all this hand-wringing that we are going through here and I guess I ended up going very conservative, for the reasons you mentioned, and my own concerns for the amount of time I might have this amp AC powered and trickle charging.

A resistor based trickle/slow charge (simple resistor in series with the cells) may sound hokey but it has some very interesting advantages. I did a lot of experimenting with a pair of 8 cell Maha 9.6V "9V" NiMH's in series and a suppply of around 26.4V or so, as I recall. I use that charger circuit on a small portable. I was aiming for a 10 hour (0.1C) slow charge. The resistor drops the difference between the supply voltage and the battery voltage (under charge). Of course, the battery voltage climbs as it charges. The effect, per Ohm's Law, is a declining charge current. My recall is that the initial current of fully depleted batteries is about double, possibly triple the ending trickle charge current. That is very dependent on the supply voltage you pick, which was preciesly set via an adjustable linear regulated supply and the resistor you pick. The 2x - 3x I mentioned is what I ended up with after tinkering a bit.

The advantage of this is that you can, say, get a targeted 10 hr charge, and not worry at all about pulling the plug at the end or setting a timer because the ending trickle current would end up around 0.05C. I personally don't own or care to carry around timers if I can help it. 

There is a counter argument to the resistor based charge scheme, which is that it is healthier for the battery to get a constant 0.1C charge, which could be easily done with an adjustable voltage regulator like LM317 configured as a constant current source. That requires more parts though, and in the case of the amp I initially discussed, there was no provision on the board for that. I just decided that batteries don't last forever regardless of how much hand-wringing we do, and the idea of damaging the cells with a declining charge is more theoretical than actual.

Neil


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## NeilR (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



VidPro said:


> well your amp (assuming YOU assembled it) is a work of art in itself, you didnt miss a thing.
> 
> i was just saying with the batteries removable, you could take them out once or twice a year, and cycle them as seperate units, which helps to full cycle them, and re-balance a bit, and of course with a 9000 test them, you will know how they are doing. we do that with the 12V belt packs here, but not often, the rest of the time its fast charge for a while then finish with a dumb slow charge.
> 
> it LOOKS like you could squeak the case down a notch or 2 and get say 5 AAs in, but i didnt know they were ALL in series, , high voltage like your saying, i thought it might be series parellel. and so would take less AAs.


 
Thanks, Vidpro, yes I did build it. I built all the amps imaged on my site and they are all operational. You guys talk about how many flashlights you need; I go through this thing where I wonder how many head amps I need, and then something interesting comes up and I'm back in there like I really need Yet Another Head Amp.

Although the project was based on two commercially produced boards, there was a lot of custom parts configuration involved (we all build them differently) and some of the battery aspects were particularly challenging, just in terms of trying to thread the needle through a lot of very poorly understood aspects of nickel based rechargeables. Mainly I just wanted the beast to work reliably. I was very fortunate that all the sytems powered up the first time. I know of several builds that never worked- the discrete output buffers are very complicated and difficult to debug if they don't fire up right away.

I agree; either a basic cycle or a full break-in should be very helpful. I would like to do a full break in only because the amp goes through months of little or no use and it's an expensive set of cells. I have a test instrument that I built (the LNMP on my site) that measures amp noise down in the microvolt level by amplifying a signal 100x or 1000x, which is then run into a DMM or scope. I might use that device a couple times a year, and it is driven by 8xAAA in order to minimize the internal noise in the amp. the residual noise level of that amp is about 10 microvolts. Yea, that pack gets abused...

I'm running down my amp tonight to get a more precise value of the existing discharge capacity. The problem is that the main power draw (a Jung Diamond Buffer) is positive temp coefficient. I measure the draw (128mA) with the case open by putting a piece of teflon between a battery and contact, and measuring with a meter. Problem is, the draw increases when it is cased but I have no external means to measure it when it is cased and even if I did, the draw is affected by the ambient external temperature. Some things are better left unkown, but the C9000 will help with that. If I get a handle on the cell capacities I can more or less back into the draw by timing the amp's run time.

Neil


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## VidPro (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

yup i think you proved that audio people are as crasy about thier audio, as the flashlight people are about thier lights.
one of them can exist with a Minimag, and the other with a stereo from wallmart, just not the other way around


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## TorchBoy (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



VidPro said:


> yup i think you proved that audio people are as crasy about thier audio, as the flashlight people are about thier lights.
> one of them can exist with a Minimag, and the other with a stereo from wallmart, just not the other way around


I think a lot of people on this forum would be crazy with a minimag...


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## Ivanhoe (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I apologize if this has been asked/answered already - but, has anyone used the Energizer 15min charger with the Eneloops? I searched but did not find the answer to this question. I was hoping to find the Costco pack of Eneloops at my local store but no joy....


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## BlackDecker (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Ivanhoe said:


> I apologize if this has been asked/answered already - but, has anyone used the Energizer 15min charger with the Eneloops? I searched but did not find the answer to this question. I was hoping to find the Costco pack of Eneloops at my local store but no joy....



Not sure how the Energizer would do with the Eneloops, but it for sure wouldn't charge the batteries to their fullest capacity. I think the 15 min charger only does about a 85% charge, and it gets the cells very hot.


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## SilverFox (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Hello BlackDecker,

Your information is a bit off...

The Eneloop cells charge up just fine in the 15 minute charger. You are correct in that they don't completely charge, but end up at about 97%. Close enough for me.

They do warm up, but usually end up below 130 F. There are some trade offs to rapid charging and warm cells is one of them. I should also point out that at the recommended 1C charge, it is not unusual for the Eneloop cells to get up to 125 F.

Tom


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## Ivanhoe (Aug 15, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Thanks for clearing that up guys! One last question: what is the typical charge time for 4 eneloops in the Maha C9000?

BTW Tom, what is in your avatar?


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## SilverFox (Aug 15, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Hello Ivanhoe,

The typical charge time for cells on the C-9000 depends on the charge rate selected. You can choose a charging rate from 200 mA to 2000 mA.

My avatar is an IR shot of the front end of my 1953 General Motors Truck.  

Tom


----------



## Ivanhoe (Aug 15, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

forgive my ignorance but within those 200 - 2000 mAh choices what does that range equate to in time? Since I don't have any user selectable charge rate chargers, I don't have a base to understand your answer.

My battery knowledge isn't what it should be- :sigh:

Thanks for the avatar def. my brother had a 56 ford p/u...


----------



## SilverFox (Aug 15, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Hello Ivanhoe,

With 2000 mAh cells, charging at 2000 mA charges in just over 1 hour and charging at 200 mA charges in just over 10 hours.

Tom


----------



## Ivanhoe (Aug 15, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Silverfox, you are DA man when one thinks of batteries. The McGizmo of 
Batts if you will-:thumbsup:


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 15, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

LSD batteries are even better than I thought!

I got almost 5 hours in my 2AA GPSr from two Kodak LSDs that had already run it for a little over 9 hours last week. Of course that gave them quite some time to "rest", but I would bet that regular NimH can't do that good.


----------



## bill_n_opus (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Norm said:


> I love this thread 150 post mostly saying how good Eneloops are and the thread title still reads
> Norm


 
Yeah, lame title. :wave: to you etc!


----------



## Turbo DV8 (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



bill_n_opus said:


> Yeah, lame title. :wave: to you etc!


 
Yeah, Eneloops really suck! Now I'm off to Fry's to buy some more...


----------



## Hikaru (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

The Eneloop product page seems to imply that the working voltage of eneloops is higher than normal nimh. And I think someone else in the thread also mentioned that the higher voltage makes a 2000mah cell closer to a 2300 mah. 
Is there anything that proves this out?
Is it just that they sag less under draw?

Thanks again.


----------



## guiri (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



musicalfruit said:


> You can also buy the 4xAA with charger online from Buy.com/ANTonline and use the $10 Googlecheckout coupon. It's $16.88 + shipping - $10.



They're saying it only includes TWO batteries but the graphic shows FOUR batteries..
http://www.buy.com/prod/sanyo-eneloop-4-position-chrgr-w-2aa-batt-nic/q/loc/111/204940762.html

George


----------



## musicalfruit (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



guiri said:


> They're saying it only includes TWO batteries but the graphic shows FOUR batteries..
> http://www.buy.com/prod/sanyo-eneloop-4-position-chrgr-w-2aa-batt-nic/q/loc/111/204940762.html
> 
> George



Yeah, it was kinda weird that the description says that but it's definitely the standard 4xAA & charger combo. Or at least that's what they sent me when I ordered it. 

Do a search for "GES-MQN05-4" and you'll see it's the same combo.


----------



## guiri (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I got it bro. I called them and they verified and I told them they needed to fix the description.

Ordered one of those, one TWO cell charger and ONE pack of AAA's

Gonna test them out.

Thanks for the help

George


----------



## guiri (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



SilverFox said:


> I am not sure you will get the full benefit from the low self discharge cells using them in clocks. Perhaps you could volunteer to do some testing for us...
> 
> Tom



Tom, I'd be happy to do some tests for you when I get the batteries but you are going to have to talk me through it 'cause I'm not too bright when it comes to this stuff.

I DO have a few clocks that ARE identical though which should add to the accuracy. You know, size of the hands and all that.

George


----------



## TorchBoy (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Hikaru said:


> Is it just that they sag less under draw?


I don't know about "just" but Tom/SilverFox's tests showed they do sag less under draw than many NiMHs. They even do quite well at 10 amps!


----------



## NeilR (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Turbo DV8 said:


> Yeah, Eneloops really suck! Now I'm off to Fry's to buy some more...


 
You know, about 50 of you guys piled on top of the poor shmuck who started this thread. He's never been seen since, probably because he's lying dead and crushed under the pile.

Yet you still begrudge him his thread title


----------



## VidPro (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



NeilR said:


> You know, about 50 of you guys piled on top of the poor shmuck who started this thread. He's never been seen since, probably because he's lying dead and crushed under the pile.
> 
> Yet you still begrudge him his thread title


 
well actually i was going to agree with him (before the onslaught), but ONLY in certian situations. for your average alkaline replacement, LSD kicks butt over high-cap.

but if your going to charge a few days before using, and you KNOW the state of your cells, and thier discharge rate, and your going to use it up , say within a Week or 2, then higher capacity batteries work fine.

what burned me was the high-cap having less capacity over TIME, but for something that occurs in a week, no problem.
i still have my 2500s for that purpose, well the ones that still work good anyways.

LSD even at lower capacity, is a miracle for the poor sucker who has to keep piddling with this junk to get it to function when one needs it. and we can assume that they will eventually increase the capacity , hopefully without Backtracking down the old self discharge road .


----------



## NeilR (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Vidpro,

I agree. I just bought 12xPowerex 2700's as well as 10xeneloops, and a C9000, and I'm going to get to the bottom of this 

As far as LSD capacity, none of us are battery engineers, we just speculate. But consider the history. NiCd's were great, except they suffered from memory problems and in a lot of applications, that was difficult to deal with, especially since chargers were generally more primitive. NiMH came out, and that solved the memory problem, and gave us more capacity. Then the cap wars started. The average user (who does not have an analyzer) can't distinguish self-discharge from memory problems. So in many ways, the average user is back to the old Nicd's that never worked well for him either. All he knows is how many shots he gets in his camera or how long his light runs after the power goes out.

I suspect that lower cap is going to be the tough love that is part and parcel to LSD. Otherwise LSD will evolve into HSD as the cap war finds a new front.

This is a similar problem to the camera megapixel wars. Most consumers don't need 10+mpx; many don't have the computational power to deal with it. More pixels = more noise and many serious photographers want less noise in high ISO shooting, but many others are screaming for 30mpx sensors. In the higher end DSLR market only the entry level camera (in the Nikon line, for example) has low pixel counts and I personally question how long that will survive. I'm sure the point 'n shoot market is going through the same thing, but I don't follow it as closely.

I think it will be very interesting to see if Joe Battery User ever excepts 2000mAh after he has been sold on more mAh=better and will never understand the intricacies of the trade-offs. It's interesting to me that the major marketing message on the Eneloop package is the instant use aspect, which, to me, is not very important. I guess that in the context of replacing Alk's, maybe it is...

Neil


----------



## VidPro (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

yup, who is going to be buying batteries at 5-6 time the cost of alkaline, and saying, ohh we can use it right out of the package 
me thinks they would be happy with the alkaline.

i think its a battery for people who already recharge, and know why self discharge is a issue.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

All I KNOW to be true will fit on the head of a pin with room left over...

But I do know this... Regular High Cap NimH got totally unreliable for MY application, which is running my GPSr all day. I don't have fancy testing gear mind you. But in real world use I find LSD batteries to be EXACTLY what the doc ordered!


----------



## guiri (Aug 17, 2007)

*Very interesting Neil*



NeilR said:


> The average user (who does not have an analyzer) can't distinguish self-discharge from memory problems. So in many ways, the average user is back to the old Nicd's that never worked well for him either. All he knows is how many shots he gets in his camera or how long his light runs after the power goes out.



You are absolutely right. I dont' have the brains or the patience to sit and fiddle with it the way you guys do. I just want it to work and I'm sure 99% of the people agree with me.

You are also correct on the megapixel thing. I hang out in the forums over at DPreview.com (if you all don't know the site, go there!!) and it's the same thing. Cameras with high MP count that take shi**y pics!

Makes no sense but the STUPID consumer demands it and everyone pays the price 

George


----------



## guiri (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



VidPro said:


> yup, who is going to be buying batteries at 5-6 time the cost of alkaline, and saying, ohh we can use it right out of the package
> me thinks they would be happy with the alkaline.
> 
> i think its a battery for people who already recharge, and know why self discharge is a issue.



Personally I hope you're wrong for the sake of the environment..


----------



## TorchBoy (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



NeilR said:


> I think it will be very interesting to see if Joe Battery User ever excepts 2000mAh after he has been sold on more mAh=better and will never understand the intricacies of the trade-offs.


Neil, isn't the Eneloop now the single most sold NiMH? It takes more than well-informed CPFers buying them to do that.


----------



## etc (Aug 18, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

More feedback on my self-discharge test.

I got a pack of 4AAA Eneloops back in April, thinking that I will find something I can use them in, and eventually, I did.

They came charged, but I recharged them anyway, and got 1.46V fresh of the charger (Vanson smart charger).

4/12/07 -- 1.46V

7/14/07 -- 1.32V

8/18/07 - 1.31V


So, in the last month, they declined only 0.01V!! 

I still use the higher capacity Maha Powerex cells, as my primary EDC light cells, and also in other various devices that drain them within 2-3 days or weekly at most. But, I painfully recognize that the LSD cells like eneloops made everything else obsolete. I didn't realize they were that good - essentially they have no self-discharge for months. And that's a lot to say, because Maha Powerex 2700 mAh has the 2nd lowest self-discharge rate IMO.

Now, if they low capacity eneloops offer more recharge cycles, that will come in as a huge bonus.


----------



## TorchBoy (Aug 18, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



etc said:


> I still use the higher capacity Maha Powerex cells, as my primary EDC light cells, and also in other various devices that drain them within 2-3 days or weekly at most. But, I painfully recognize that the LSD cells like eneloops made everything else obsolete. I didn't realize they were that good - essentially they have no self-discharge for months.


That's certainly the best way to use high capacity cells, and there's no reason for you to change there. And good on you for changing your mind about the Eneloops after your test. I'd personally like to see more tests on Eneloop AAAs. Most people here seem to use just AAs.


----------



## Gazoo (Aug 18, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



etc said:


> Now, if they low capacity eneloops offer more recharge cycles, that will come in as a huge bonus.



Well I am happy you gave the eneloops a chance. I think for most users, even if they offer fewer recharge cycles, they will come out ahead because they don't need to be recharged nearly as often. Of course only time will tell how well eneloops hold up, but so far I have been very happy with mine.


----------



## etc (Aug 19, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I think it's just a question of time when they will up the capacity to 2200 mAh, 2500 and so on.

Normal NiMH cells are obsolete.


----------



## Hans (Aug 19, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



TorchBoy said:


> I'd personally like to see more tests on Eneloop AAAs. Most people here seem to use just AAs.



I've been using Eneloop AAAs in various applications since they came onto the market. My impression is that they're just smaller versions of the AAs with regard to performance. Slightly lower capacity than high capacity AAAs; on average I'm getting 11 hours of use out of high capacity AAAs in my old Palm IIIxe versus 9 with the Eneloops. Very low self discharge, just like the AAs.

I like the AAAs.

Hans


----------



## Hans (Aug 19, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



etc said:


> I think it's just a question of time when they will up the capacity to 2200 mAh, 2500 and so on.
> 
> Normal NiMH cells are obsolete.



Actually, I'm quite happy with the Eneloops as they are. They seem to be more robust than all those high capacity cells out there, with very few reports of failures. Capacity is one thing, reliability is another.

And yes, conventional NiMH cells are obsolete. I think it's only a matter of time until they'll disappear from the market, the advantages of LSD cells are overwhelming.

Hans


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 19, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I'm not sure what I'll ever use regular NimH for now.

My main rechargable battery use is for my Garmin Legend. E 2500 and D 2500 got so that they wouldn't reliably run it. So far a mix of Eneloop/Hybrid/Kodak has proven to be a revelation!

I still have over 20 regular NimH from 1850 to 2500 that are good. But I can let LSD batteries sit for a couple of weeks easy and they'll do the job. The other NimH are never ready when I want to use them!

So as far as I'm concerned LSD batteries are the future and the others are pretty much obsolete!


----------



## etc (Aug 19, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Is there any run time difference betwen Powerex 2700 mAh and Eneloop 2000 mAh?


----------



## ElectronGuru (Aug 19, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Here's the USA web site:
http://www.eneloopusa.com/


Which has the charger's manual
http://www.eneloopusa.com/pdf/4_Position_Charger_IS.pdf


battery specifications
AA - http://www.eneloopusa.com/pdf/HR-3UTG_Spec-eneloop.pdf
AAA - http://www.eneloopusa.com/pdf/HR-4UTG_Spec-eneloopAAA.pdf


and a rebate form (expires Aug 31st)
http://www.eneloopusa.com/pdf/eneloopy_rebate_form.pdf

EG


----------



## Codeman (Aug 20, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



ElectronGuru said:


> Here's the USA web site:
> ...AAA - http://www.eneloopusa.com/pdf/HR-4UT...eneloopAAA.pdf
> ...



Whoops!

Here's the correct link, but they've posted an empty document:

http://www.eneloopusa.com/pdf/HR-4UTG_Spec-eneloopAAA.pdf


----------



## guiri (Aug 20, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



TorchBoy said:


> Most people here seem to use just AAs.



Trust me when I say this. I HATE using throw away batteries. To me it's one of the biggest wastes I can think of


----------



## ElectronGuru (Aug 21, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Codeman said:


> Here's the correct link, but they've posted an empty document:



Thanks for catching that, a hazard of copy/pasting links around here 

The full link does load, it just takes a really long time. They made the PDF unnecessarily large and then put it on a slow server.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 21, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Uh Oh!

A pair of Rayovac Hybrids that were charged maybe 2 weeks ago didn't even go half a day in my GPSr. When I put them in it "said" that they were fully charged. It died sometime before 1pm.

The GPSr sits atop my dashboard, and gets MIGHTY hot.... and when I took those batteries out they were not comfortable to hold.

But today was not much if any different from many other days as far as heat goes.

I plan to check those two batteries carefully when I get home. 

But this reminds me a lot of why I got LSD batteries to start with!!!!


----------



## Hikaru (Aug 21, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that the best charging currents for eneloops are between 0.5 - 1C. In the case of a 2000mAh batt, that would be 1000 mah - 2000 mah.
My question is whether these rates are the most efficient (time vs heat) or actually the best for the cell (vs. the default rate on my BC900 of 200 mah). Is slow charging better or does it make no difference if I up that to 1000 mah?

Thanks


----------



## TorchBoy (Aug 21, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> The GPSr sits atop my dashboard, and gets MIGHTY hot...


That really doesn't sound like the best location or environment for it, although it's probably the most convenient. Can you rig up some sort of shade for it? Internal or external aerial?



PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> !!!!


Here's one more for you collection: ! :sick2:



Hikaru said:


> My question is whether these rates are the most efficient (time vs heat) or actually the best for the cell (vs. the default rate on my BC900 of 200 mah). Is slow charging better or does it make no difference if I up that to 1000 mah?


Yes, probably not, and yes. In day to day use 0.5-1C is better than slow charging at 0.1C for various reasons, especially for good termination. 0.1C is good for some things but is less convenient and Tom (SilverFox) mentioned recently it can cause large crystal growth which can limit discharge current. (Slow in, slow out I suppose.) 0.11C-0.49C should be avoided because it may cause overcharging, which I gather is one of the leading causes of premature failure of NiMH cells.

PS. Yay, 1000 posts!


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 21, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

DOUBLE UH OH!

The pair I put in to replace the above pair were dead by 5PM!

The GPSr indicated full battery power some 45 minutes after I started it up again.

The other two pair in the holder each have 1.3XV, and in another holder sitting here with similarly charged LSD Hybrids and Kodaks all show 1.3X

The two pairs that died both show 1.2X

Prior to going into the truck yesterday morning the batteries in the 8 cell holder sat on the floor in my "office" at never more than 80F. And in the truck the sit on the hump shaded by the drink holder.

I don't know WHAT to think now!!!!


----------



## TorchBoy (Aug 21, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> I don't know WHAT to think now!!!!


I know! It's the perfect excuse to buy a thermometer for your truck. :thumbsup:

Seriously tho, high temperatures aren't supposed to be good for batteries. On the dashboard I wouldn't be surprised if they were getting to 50°C or even 60°C for extended periods.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 21, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I have a therm in one of the AC outlets, and I've seen 140F on it.

BUT remember, nothing really changed. I did nothing different except the batteries in question sat for a couple of weeks on the floor of my 'puter room.

And the batteries all start at 1.3V which is what I've started the GPSr at many times with no problem going all day.

The GPSr stays on and on the dash and always has.

I would charge regular NimH on the weekend and use them during the week. I always take 8 out to the truck on monday and keep them in the truck.

I need not charge LSD as often as I got enough to go 3 weeks. And the LSD NimH (Hybrids) were doing fine for a couple weeks and now this....

It was no hotter today than many other days lately. So where do I go from here? To my knowledge I can't run the Etrex Legend from the truck electrical system nor hook up an external antenna. ullhair:


----------



## itguy07 (Aug 21, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> It was no hotter today than many other days lately. So where do I go from here? To my knowledge I can't run the Etrex Legend from the truck electrical system nor hook up an external antenna. ullhair:




Look for this:
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=650

Sadly Garmin doesn't have it on their site online, but I bet some GPS stores have it.


----------



## tarponbill (Aug 21, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> So where do I go from here?


I have had similar luck, the GPS shuts down sooner than the LSD discharge says it should. Turns out, they electronics was not designed for rechargeable batteries. My Garmin GPS III+ is now alkaline only. Had a similar premature shutdown problem with a cheap digital camera ... sigh.

Guess I am going to have to pay closer attention in the future to the specs before I buy.


----------



## TorchBoy (Aug 21, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



tarponbill said:


> Turns out, they electronics was not designed for rechargeable batteries.


Explanation, please. Does the electronics require the higher initial voltage? But that would mean half or two thirds of the alkaline battery capacity goes unused when the unit shuts down due to "low" voltage.


----------



## Gene (Aug 21, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I'm in the process of converting EVERYTHING I own that takes batteries, (when I have the money  except for a couple of unique little lights that I already have unprotected cells!), to Eneloop cells. These things are great and I'm sick and tired of alkalines leaking and causing havoc in my electronic devices.

Alkalines just leak and leak and leak! I'm sick of them! My son gave me a huge pack of D and AA alkaline cells from Costco just last Christmas that are supposed to be good until 2010. Well, the AAs have already leaked in the unopened package!

I'm so sick of alkalines that I gave all of them away. If you use TONS of batteries quickly, they're okay. I'm just not going to ever let them leak into my vintage and modern electronics in a matter of months, if not weeks.

These Eneloops have so far been as good as cells can get. They hold their charge well and seem to have MORE capacity than advertised.

True, I've never had a rechargeable of ANY type leak, (NiCD, NiMH, or Li-Ion), but these Eneloops seem to have all the attributes I want without the dangers of li-Ions. 

I do have to admit that the UNPROTECTED rechargeable Li-Ions I've had for a couple of years have been bomb proof and hold their charge just about forever and I've NEVER heard of a unprotected rechargeable Li-ION exploding. 

I know, I know, don't EVER let an unprotected Li-Ion discharge completely but on the rare occasion I have, they have always come back to life without an explosion or other differential consequentions.

I'm thinking for most applications, Eneloops and non protected Li-ions are THE way to go.


----------



## celler (Aug 21, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> ? To my knowledge I can't run the Etrex Legend from the truck electrical system nor hook up an external antenna. ullhair:



Geez, I wish you had said this sooner. I had no idea what a "GPSr" was supposed to be. Flip the eTrex over and stick your fingernail under the bottom of the rubber cover at the top. This should reveal a standard USB mini B connector. You can pick up a standard USB cable for this cheap anywhere. I got mine at cables4computer.com. Then just pick up a cheap USB 5.0 volt cigarette lighter adapter (also obtainable from cables4computer.com) and you have a power adapter for less than $10.00. Ipod car adapters will also work but the "Ipod" name on it makes it about double the price. I use my eTrex Vista Cx this way all the time. Works great.

Craig.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 22, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I suppose it COULD be that my Garmin has defaulted back to it's original setup.

It has an ability to be switched to different battery types. I'll check this when I put the batteries in this morning.

Thanks for the tip about USB cables and car adapters. I MAY even be able to afford it...


----------



## Codeman (Aug 22, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Also, WAAS puts a huge drain on batteries. If your GPS has a switch to turn it off and you don't mind losing a bit of accuracy, you could try that.


----------



## itguy07 (Aug 22, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

If you have the Legend Cx with the Color screen it's USB.

If it's the Black and White Legend (serial), you need the proprietary Garmin connector.


----------



## TorchBoy (Aug 22, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



itguy07 said:


> If you have the Legend Cx with the Color screen it's USB.
> 
> If it's the Black and White Legend (serial), you need the proprietary Garmin connector.


Thanks for that, I'd been thinking about buying a b&w Legend. One more thing to consider.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 22, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Okay. 

I have mentioned before that I don't have ultra-zoot chargers that do super testing. 

I did in fact have two pairs of Hybrids go dead as far as the Garmin was concerned in only 4ish hours each.

I have some older regular NimH, in this case Duracell 2050 that by how I can tell are good. They have so far done 9 hours today, and I'll leave it on at least until I get to the bowling alley.

I found nothing amiss in the settings of the Garmin.

So something is DEFINATELY rotten with Hybrids.


----------



## tarponbill (Aug 22, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



TorchBoy said:


> Explanation, please. Does the electronics require the higher initial voltage?



It appears with my gps the electronics has a simple, or maybe even no regulator which shuts the device down when the voltage drops. I tried a few tests and it appears my GPS shuts down at under 1.1 volts per cell. The cheap camera I have does the same, shuts down at about 1.1 volts per cell. Not clear why in either case, you would have to have the circuit design to figure it out. I had to switch back to regular alkalines to get the run time out of both that I desired. 

I was using Hybrid LSDs and Energizer 2500 AA cells, both behaved about the same.

Obviously it will vary with the design of the power system of the electronics when cutoff occurs. I think older equipment may be more prone to this shutdown effect as rechargeable batteries are just now getting common. I was looking at cameras a few weeks back and they spec'ed NiMH batteries were OK.


----------



## itguy07 (Aug 22, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



TorchBoy said:


> Thanks for that, I'd been thinking about buying a b&w Legend. One more thing to consider.



I was torn between those and one of the "better units" with the color screens. I stumbled on the Venture Cx at Bass Pro Shops for $189 about 2 months ago and ended up with it. 

I figured that the Serial ones would be a PITA requiring a serial -> USB converter for my Mac (even if you are on a PC this may be a consideration as serial ports are a dying breed) would put me right at about the same price.

I love it - with the microSD card I record GPX files to it and process them with GPSBabel to Google Earth, plot them on topo charts (have a Mac program for that ) and even take it running and have a map of where I run in my runnning log.

And it's great for Geocaching and hiking too.

Needless to say they are great devices. I just wish Garmin would hurry up and do MapSource for the Mac and it would be a perfect travel car GPS.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 22, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Mine is a relatively primative Etrex Legend. It doesn't map, but gives heading and distance to known points which makes it good for finding once a year customers!

I had planned to Geocache with it but don't really ever have time!

And incidently the Duracell 2050s showed some time left when I shut it down at 10 hours and 20 minutes.

I have what I believe to be a good pair of Energizer 2200s to run tomorrow, and Eneloops for Friday. Hybrids come up again next week.


----------



## Turbo DV8 (Aug 23, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> Mine is a relatively primative Etrex Legend. It doesn't map, but gives heading and distance to known points which makes it good for finding once a year customers!


 
Sounds like you use it in your car and leave it in the car, so why not splurge for a dedicated auto GPS you can plug into your cig lighter? Radio Sh*t just ended a sale on the Magellan Maestro 3100 for $200. They can be found as low as $190 occassionally. Much more sensitive than your eTrex, with color mapping, calls out every turn as you approach, etc. That's a steal for what it does, as long as a massive Point of Interest database is not terribly important to you, but it sounds like you create your own POI's anyway. The POI database on the 3100 verges on flawed, so many POI's does it lack. I happen to want a vast POI database so the GPS doesn't send me 20 miles in one direction to a hotel when there is one a block away in the opposite direction. So I decided to return the 3100 and spend twice that on a 4040 at Costco, but I must say for half the price of the 4040, you can't go wrong with the 3100 if POI is low-priority. I own the basic Garmin eTrex myself. It is great for outdoors hiking and such when there is not heavy tree cover, but if your main use is in the auto, once you try a car GPS, you will cringe thinking back to the days you used the eTrex in the car!


----------



## TorchBoy (Aug 23, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



tarponbill said:


> I was using Hybrid LSDs and Energizer 2500 AA cells, both behaved about the same.


You might like to try Eneloops. They hold a higher voltage when under load, especially with heavy loads. For example, Tom (SilverFox) tested them at a 6 amp discharge current and found they managed 1.3Ah before dropping below 1.1V (looking very roughly at his graph).



itguy07 said:


> I figured that the Serial ones would be a PITA requiring a serial -> USB converter for my Mac (even if you are on a PC this may be a consideration as serial ports are a dying breed) would put me right at about the same price.
> 
> I love it - with the microSD card I record GPX files to it and process them with GPSBabel to Google Earth, plot them on topo charts (have a Mac program for that ) and even take it running and have a map of where I run in my runnning log.


Yes, I've got Mac, and also have microSD in my phone. Thanks very much for the advice.


----------



## guiri (Aug 23, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Alright boys, I got my Eneloops so if you want me to do some kind of tests with the wall clocks, let me know.

George


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 23, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

The Etrex Legend ran all day again this time with Energizer 2200s I have had for a pretty good while.

Eneloops are up for tomorrow which is going to be another big time driving day.


----------



## SilverFox (Aug 24, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Hello George,

If you have two clocks that are similar, put Eneloop cells (after charging) in one and Alkaline cells in the other.

We will check back in a year or so to see how things are working out... 

Tom


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 24, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

A pair of Eneloops ran my Garmin Etrex Legend 2AA GPSr just peachy today.


----------



## celler (Aug 24, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I'm still evaluating possible Eneloop usages. One I'm thinking of is rarely used flashlights because of the low discharge rate. However, the other disappointment I've found with alkalines is leakage. Something, I've not had a problem with on lithiums or nimh. I assume that since the Eneloops are nimh technology, that they also are "leak less."

Thanks.

Craig.


----------



## ElectronGuru (Aug 25, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Another option for storage/emergency lighting are AA lithium's like Energizer e2's. High output, high capacity, awesome temperature range, and a self discharge rate that makes even LSDs blush.


----------



## etc (Aug 25, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I just tried Lithiums in garmin gps 60-series.... awesome run time, easily double that of anything else. think 40+ hours...


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 25, 2007)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I _THINK_ my Legend has an option in the set up to use Lithium AAs, but I _*MUCH*_ prefer to run it for "free"


----------



## bltkmt (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Sorry to jump in with a newbie question, but I don't want to read through 9 pages for a simple question: *will Eneloops provide the juice appropriate to get the full potential on my AA lights*? For example, using alkalines on my Nitecore DI, I assume I am not getting the highest lumen output available. Will Eneloops get me to full potential?


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Hello Bltkmt,

Sorry to jump in with a "silly" answer... but when batteries, including Eneloop cells, provide juice, they are dead...  

The Eneloop cells are good for a maximum draw of around 4 amps. If the runtime of your light is longer than 30 minutes continuous, they should work fine.

By the way, the sticky of topics at the top of this section has a thread in it called the NiMh shoot out. You can not only find actual discharge information on Eneloop cells, but a variety of others as well.

Tom


----------



## bltkmt (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Thanks SF. I did do some reading on discharge, etc...but it doesn't make much sense to a dimwit (or dim bulb) such as me. If a light claims its highest lumen output requires a NiMH battery (like the Lumapower Avenger for example), can the Eneloop provide enough power (or "draw) to get the most out of the light lumen-wise as well?


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Hello Bltkmt,

The reason NiMh cells are recommended in some applications is that they hold voltage under load much better than Alkaline cells do.

An Alkaline cell starts off at around 1.5 volts, then the voltage steadly drops from there. Under heavier loads, the voltage will drop below 1.2 volts in a few minutes.

NiMh cells are rated at their mid point voltage under load. The hold around 1.2 volts throughout their discharge, unless you are really driving them hard.

Since higher voltage means brighter beams (on non regulated lights), the NiMh cells win out on brightness.

The Eneloop cells should work fine.

Tom


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Not only are Eneloops/Hybrids/Kodak Pre-Charged good stuff.

But Kodaks won't fit in several AA lights while Hybrids go in and out just peachy. I only have 4 Eneloop and haven't really tried tham in a light.

What I have most of is Hybrids and they have done everything I ask of them. They will run my 2AA GPS as long or longer than 2500 EVER did!


----------



## guiri (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Well boys (and any girls that might be here) I just bought a buttload of Eneloops so if anyone wants me to do any testing, let me know.

I bought 100 AA's and around 20 AAA's and a few chargers.

I have close to 100 wall clocks at home and there's no way I'm buying that many alkalines just to throw away. World's screwed as it is, I don't need to contribute more to it.

I LOVE rechargeables

George


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



guiri said:


> I have close to 100 wall clocks at home and there's no way I'm buying that many alkalines just to throw away.



WOW! You should post some pictures. I'm sure you have some interesting clocks to see. :candle:

I have been using this free Colorado Cesium Clock shareware to set my computer's clock to one of a number of gov atomic clocks.


----------



## guiri (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I guess I can


----------



## LED-holic (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Will an admin or moderator change the title off this thread so it's not so misleading??


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Hello LED-holic,

I am afraid that request would have to come from the person that posted the original post...

Tom


----------



## LED-holic (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



SilverFox said:


> Hello LED-holic,
> 
> I am afraid that request would have to come from the person that posted the original post...
> 
> Tom


Thanks for the quick reply Tom.

I'm just afraid that if a newbie takes a look in here, he/she might get the false impression that Eneloops are bad.

Also, if this thread becomes popular via Google, someone skimming through google search results also might get a bad opinion of Eneloops. Not many people have the patience to read through the 9+ pages of replies here to understand the real story.

A change in the title would help avoid that misconception. Or a careful edit to something like: "question - Eneloop AAs are not as good due to reduced capacity?" to make it seem more like a question than an authoritative post.


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Hello LED-holic,

While you make some good points, you forget that people are entitled to their own opinions. If you read the first post in this thread, a legitimate question was raised.

We encourage people to make use of the search functions and to read the threads. It is not unusual to have some very nice tidbits of information buried in a thread. 

I might also add that the opinion of someone who has their opinion formed by skimming Google titles is most likely going to be challenged by those who have more information.

Tom


----------



## dulridge (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



etc said:


> Sanyo Eneloop is that new low-discharge technology, but it's rated at only 2,000 mAh. However Sanyo or Maha Powerex are both rated at 2700 mAh, or 30% higher - and it takes a long time for them to discharge 30% to the level of Eneloop. A month maybe, or more.
> 
> For heavy duty equipment, cameras, flashlights, radios, the higher amps cells win, unless you need to store them for a long time.
> 
> ...



Depends on how often you use the devce, cells. This may well be the case for the first while if you use the device every day. In practice, from my rather disappointing "2700mAh" cells (The best of 20 of them tested at 2560mAh when they were new, most were less than 2400mAh), I get fewer pictures on my digital camera which is not used every day than I do from low self-discharge cells of 30% less nominal capacity (Nominally 2100mAh, no idea how well they perform under high amperage use).


----------



## ALWZWFO (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Let me start by saying I've never used eneloops. I've had horrible luck with E2500 and D2650 cells, as has everyone else! About a year ago I bought 16 Maha Powerex 2700 cells. Not one has failed yet and they all exhibit fairly low self discharge. I use them in cameras, gps' and flashlights with great success. I even forgot them one time in my gps and left them in for a month and they still ran all day. I let them sit for 3 weeks and they still had about 2300 mah per my C9000 @ 800ma discharge. I think they are awesome compared to the previously mentioned cells. When these are used up, I'll surely try out the eneloops. But I must say that these cells seem to have more capacity if used within a month, so far. IMHO. YMMV.

I do tend to agree somewhat with the original post, let the flames begin! (I'm not afraid)


----------



## Albinoni (Jan 15, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I've got a question here re Eneloops, Alkalines, Voltage and LED Torches. Eneloops give out 1.2 Volts, Alkalines 1.5 Volts. If I place say and eneloop battery in a LED torch (say one that runs on 1xAA such as a Fenix), than will I loose a bit of light as the LED would be slightly under powered due to the 1.2V batt. But if I were to use an Alkaline and because this is 1.5 volts and gives out slightly more power than my torch's LED would be brighter due to the slighly higher voltage.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jan 15, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

In a low current application that would likely be true. Especially direct drive.

In most "modern" stuff the NimH will give up current easier and be brighter.

In addition NimH discharge gives semi regulated runtime.


----------



## radellaf (Jan 15, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Albinoni, see post #255 above:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2295000&postcount=255


----------



## f1rchifi (Jan 17, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I don't know if this is the best place to post this reply but here goes... I tried using Eneloops purchased from Costco recently, packed with 8 AAs and 4AAAs plus charger all for $25 est. Results are quite good to me. Used in flashlights, rc toys etc. 

A lot of us have had problems too with the Sanyo 2500 and when I had it changed to a diff batch from the distributor it now works much better. The color of the battery they gave me is something like a yellow/orange and not the older blue and white. Can't find much of these color types around yet and they perform much better in keeping a charge. Ex 1.43V after full charge and then after 45 days its at 1.29V. Much better than my previous 2500 Blue & white of 1.1 or .98V after 24 hours!

I also tried using GP 2700 with almost the same results.

Just for info.


----------



## shadowjk (Jan 17, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I have 4 GP2700 that I haven't really used much. Their most outstanding feature seems to be that they get extremely hot, even at 0.5C ,way before the charger has put in 2000mAh even, they're too hot to touch...


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jan 17, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Almost ready to absolutely GIVE UP on regular NimH in favor of Hybrids, Eneloops and Kodak Pre-Charged.

6 C cell from Batteries + now have two acting like Energizer 2500.


----------



## guiri (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

For Lex..

http://www.totaldesignz.com/images/wall-clocks.htm


----------



## Marduke (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



guiri said:


> For Lex..
> 
> http://www.totaldesignz.com/images/wall-clocks.htm



I bet you absolutely love daylight savings time


----------



## guiri (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Well, I gave that up. I'll just wait for spring. They'll be accurate then


----------



## TorchBoy (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



guiri said:


> I'll just wait for spring. They'll be accurate then


Yeah? Out of the six clocks in the first pic I see five different times. :laughing: I like the really big one over the fireplace.


----------



## guiri (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Yeah, I'm thinking the batteries are low or empty on those.

The one you like is one of my favorites too and they all look much better in real life.

I have another almost like the one you like that's not up yet


----------



## guiri (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

.............


----------



## Turbo DV8 (Jan 21, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



guiri said:


> For Lex..
> 
> http://www.totaldesignz.com/images/wall-clocks.htm


 

It's midnight ... Do you know where _your_ clocks are?


----------



## guiri (Jan 21, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Some of them I do


----------



## Toohotruk (Jan 21, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Is there much difference between AA Eneloops and AA Kodak Pre-Charged batteries? There is a significant difference in price between the two and I just have to wonder if the Eneloops are that much better than the Kodaks.

Joe, you mostly talked about the Hybrids and the Eneloops in your posts...how do the Kodaks perform in comparison? Do you get the same runtime with the Kodaks as you do the Eneloops?

And what about those Hybrids that died early that day in posts #223 and 226? Did they ever work right again, or was the LSD aspect (or maybe their capacity) lost on those cells?

Guiri, Cool clocks! I'll be interested to see how your tests work out...in about a year or so. I'm thinking about using LSD batteries in some similar applications.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jan 21, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

I have more Hybrid than any other battery. I have maybe 8 Kodak and 4 Eneloop.

They all run my GPS all day.

The MAIN difference is Kodak are FAT! They won't go in many flashlights.

Hybrids will fit most, and I haven't found anything the Eneloops wont fit!


----------



## VF1Jskull1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

i was able to get 2 package sets of eneloops from costco for 20 a piece... i actually haven't got around to using them yet...


----------



## guiri (Feb 6, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Turbo DV8 said:


> It's midnight ... Do you know where _your_ clocks
> are?



On one of my walls


----------



## Toohotruk (Feb 16, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

So, does anyone know how they handle extreme cold? Do they still hold their charge as long when they have been sitting in a cold aluminum flashlight in the trunk of a car during winter months?

Anyone done any tests?:thinking:


----------



## TorchBoy (Feb 16, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

As long they're not frozen when you start using them, I don't think it's a problem. It's heat they don't like.


----------



## Bones (Feb 16, 2008)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*



Toohotruk said:


> So, does anyone know how they handle extreme cold? Do they still hold their charge as long when they have been sitting in a cold aluminum flashlight in the trunk of a car during winter months?
> 
> Anyone done any tests?



From item 3 of the Sanyo Eneloop press release:



> Comparatively more powerful and longer-lasting than dry cell batteries.
> 
> Superior low-temperature electrical discharge performance.
> 
> ...


Considering the Eneloop's discharge rate slows even further at lower temperatures, they should actually hold their charge longer in the trunk.

I'm not sure how effective they would be at giving it up in the extreme cold though, so it would be good to hear from someone who has actually given it a try.

As well, while they are probably better than most NiMH rechargeable cells in cold weather, there appears to be a virtual consensus that nothing is as effective in extremely cold weather as lithium primaries.


----------



## Youfoundnemo (Sep 28, 2008)

*Everybody loves eneloops, but....*

They have lower capacity compared to most nihm and need a special charger
why does everyone like them so much, other than the low discharge rate what is there to like?


----------



## TORCH_BOY (Sep 28, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*

The thing I like about them is, they have no memory effect at all.
Sometimes I just am unable to make it to a charger and I know that my lights
will fire up when I need it most.


----------



## odessit (Sep 28, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*

There is no need for special charger. Any charger capable of recharging NiMH will recharge Eneloops.
Also, supposedly they last more cycles.

It comes down to usage patterns:
Once in a while use - Eneloop wins
Frequent use in a power hungry light - higher capacity battery is better.

IIRC, the break-even point for Eneloop 2000 vs Sanyo 2700 is 60 days.
After 60 days, eneloop will have more capacity.


----------



## EngrPaul (Sep 28, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*

The low self discharge rate means I get more usage from the batteries betweeen charges, despite their lower mA*h rating. Plus, I never have to wonder how long it's been since I charged them. 

My 2500-2700 mA*h cells are sitting on the shelf unloved, do you want to buy them cheap? You won't need a special charger


----------



## LEDAdd1ct (Sep 28, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*

Eneloops do _not_ require a special charger. They can be charged in the same charger as your high capacity AA NiMh cells. 

They are handy for putting in things you don't use for awhile/need to have ready in a pinch. When I go on nighthikes with my Fenix L2P SSC P4, I still use the 2.7aH cells.


----------



## Sgt. LED (Sep 28, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*

Thanks for that!
60 days, always wondered when things evened out.


----------



## odessit (Sep 28, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*

Actually, I have freshly charged 4x Eneloops and 4x Sanyo 2700 (1 day difference)
I'll run a test of my own.
The 60 day figure was derived only by one person. Time to verify it...
BRB in 60 days


----------



## Sgt. LED (Sep 28, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*

:thumbsup:


----------



## LukeA (Sep 28, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*



Youfoundnemo said:


> They have lower capacity compared to most nihm and need a special charger
> why does everyone like them so much, other than the low discharge rate what is there to like?



No need for a special charger (for the nth time)

I think you underestimate the issue of self-discharge.


----------



## odessit (Sep 28, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*

Here's a quote from another forum
http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/lofiversion/index.php?t160997.html

Powerex 2700 straight out of the charger - lasted 22hours, 13 Minutes
eneloop 2000 straight out of the charger - lasted 17 hours, 53 minutes

Powerex 2700 after sitting on the shelf for a month - lasted 18 hours, 15 minutes
eneloop 2000 after sitting on the shelf for a month - lasted 15 hours, 7 minutes


[Testing Methodology]

I will do test at 45 days, 60 days, 75 days and 90 days at 500 mA discharge.
Batteries with the most charge will be tested first. Batteries with the least charge will be tested last to amplify the effect of "worst case scenario"

Sounds OK?


----------



## Youfoundnemo (Sep 28, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*

So far the regular batts have been better by odessit's testing and if you have lights that dont get used and recharded in a month that light would probably be better off with primarys anyways.....idk just odd to me


----------



## TigerhawkT3 (Sep 28, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*

Here's a 10-page thread on precisely this subject:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/168348

Might want to continue the discussion there, or just read through the thing.


----------



## LukeA (Sep 28, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*



Youfoundnemo said:


> So far the regular batts have been better by odessit's testing and if you have lights that dont get used and recharded in a month that light would probably be better off with primarys anyways.....idk just odd to me



Cost of use is sky-high with alks compared to any kind of rechargeables, and then there's the abysmal performance on alks. 

I remember the test where Eneloops showed something like 85% after two years of storage in a car. I don't think Powerexes would do that. 

The discharge curve with stored Eneloops goes to 90% or so fairly quickly, but remains at that level for a long time. Normal high-cap NiMHs keep dropping.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix (Sep 29, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*

Besides the low self-discharge characteristics of Eneloops, they also have a slightly higher voltage than regular NiMH batteries. The voltage is very close to the starting voltage of alkalines making them better in voltage sensitive devices. They also are about the only rechargeable battery that works well in cold weather. Regular NiMH and NiCd batteries don't work well below 50 degrees F. Lithium-ions can't be used even near freezing. Eneloops work well into the 20s and can be stored in even colder temperatures. They are very consistently made. The voltage between cells in a pack are all even and the cells are all the same size. Many high capacity batteries won't even fit in certain devices because they're too fat. Eneloops are also rated for 1000 charges. Regular NiMH last 300-500 charges and some high capacity cells won't even last 50.


----------



## Burgess (Sep 29, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*

Eneloops are GREAT ! :twothumbs


Oh, did we mention that they *don't* need a special charger ?



_


----------



## Hamster (Sep 29, 2008)

Many posters in this thread are concerned with charge retention. I am more concerned with capacity retention and investment protection. I have 12 D 9 Ah, three year old cells at $15 each that were “shelf queens” for two years. After 10 cycles on the Triton, none of them have regained more than 50% of their labeled capacity. My AA cells are a bit better.
Traditional NimH batteries are a perishable item. Just like a loaf of bread. They should have an expiry date. When they sit on a shelf, they rot. Time seems to be the greatest enemy of traditional NimH batteries. So, if your investment horizon is a year or so, perhaps you are young, go for the mAh’s. If you would like to pull your batteries out of the shelf two years from now, cycle them a few times and get what you paid for, LSD is the way to go.

Time may prove me wrong.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm sorry if this is my second or third or forth post in this thread.

My MAIN _use_ for NimH batteries is two a day in my Garmin Etrex Legend GPSr.

After anywhere from 6 months to 12 months 2500mAh cells from Duracell and Energizer where not holding the capacity to run the GPS all day after only a week. I have 22 cells off in a holder that won't stay charged for a week and in some cases less.

This is MOSTLY 2300-2500 cells. My 2100 and less cells seem to hold on pretty well even now.

I have enough Rayovac Hybrid cells to have them in my favorite incandescent light that I KNOW will work when I pick it up. My lesser used hotwires are often dim when I pick 'em up.

My GPS runs all day on LSD NimH every time I try!

I usually use the charger that came with my Eneloops and a Duracell (both 4 place and roughly 6 hour charging) for my LSD NimH. Sometimes my C Crane Quick Charger as well. I haven't used my Energizer 1 hour charger in well over a year!


----------



## EngrPaul (Sep 29, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*



Burgess said:


> Oh, did we mention that they *don't* need a special charger ?


 
How about *dummy* batteries. Do they need a *dummy* charger ?? 

:nana:


----------



## Hitthespot (Sep 29, 2008)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> After anywhere from 6 months to 12 months 2500mAh cells from Duracell and Energizer where not holding the capacity to run the GPS all day after only a week. .


 
Energizers are notorious for not holding a charge. I bought 4 Energizer 2500mah Ni-mh batteries and within months they would not hold their charge longer than a week. Everytime I needed fresh batteries they were dead, even though they were just fully charged a week before. I also bought the Duracells at the same time and those have not given me a problem. I buy eneloops only now.

Bill


----------



## Sgt. LED (Sep 29, 2008)

*Re: Everybody loves eneloops, but....*



EngrPaul said:


> How about *dummy* batteries. Do they need a *dummy* charger ??
> 
> :nana:


 Speaking of a dummy! Here I am.
I just wondered if I could do something.....

My AA NiMh charger won't do 1 cell at a time, could I stick in a dummy cell in the other bay and have everything turn out ok? It's a 4 bay but will do 2 at a time without a problem.
Energizer model: CHDC7


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 29, 2008)

For a pretty good while now I have been shying away from any NimH over 2000 or 2100mAh.

But I've almost always bought enough of any one brand/mAh to use them in sets in hotwire lights and such. I had 8 pairs of E and D 2500s for GPS use (and some 1650, 1800, 1850, 2050 and 2100) for other uses.

The vast majority of the 2500s are junk, while the better part of the 2100 and less still function pretty well.

I have 15 of originally 16 Rayovac 1800 non-LSD NimH that have served me pretty well.

I suppose I could always overnite charge a pair of 2500s and carry them out to the truck the next morning.

But the LSD NimH I use instead can sit here charged for a week or two and still run the GPS at least from 8AM to 6PM.

I can think of no other good use for the 2500s.

I get very good use out of Rayovacs whether Alk or NimH. And I could use 8 to 12 more. Hence my thread about them.


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## SilverFox (Sep 29, 2008)

Hello Hamster,

Welcome to CPF.

The proper way to store NiMh cells is to discharge them at 1C to 1 volt per cell, then to run a charge/discharge cycle every 30 days. If you do this, your cells will be ready to go when you take them out of storage and begin using them. 

Of course NiMh cells may only be good for around 500 cycles, so you should plan things to have them in use before 500 months go by...

Tom


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## celler (Dec 10, 2008)

*Where to buy??*

What is the current consensus on who has the best price on Eneloops at this time?

Thanks.

Craig.


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## Eugene (Dec 10, 2008)

*Re: Where to buy??*



celler said:


> What is the current consensus on who has the best price on Eneloops at this time?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Craig.



Thomas Distributing has the best price I've found now that they have disappeared from all the B&M stores. I did see some duraloops in Kroger last trip.


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## Eugene (Dec 10, 2008)

Hamster said:


> I am more concerned with capacity retention and investment protection.



I'm also. I have Sanyo batteries from 1999 that still test out at 80%. RayoVac's hit the 80% mark around 4-5 years and energizers, duracells and radioshack never lasted that long to do a long term test. So I'm sticking with Sanyo be it LDS or not.


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## MatteoRR (Oct 21, 2012)

Have anyone tried the sanyo eneloop XXX?

The price increase is justified? they really have the same lawless discharge time but significantly more mAh?


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## weez82 (Oct 21, 2012)

MatteoRR said:


> Have anyone tried the sanyo eneloop XXX?
> 
> The price increase is justified? they really have the same lawless discharge time but significantly more mAh?



use the cpf google search option, it's top left.


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## Viking (Oct 21, 2012)

I have never heard about them. Don't you mean *eneloop xx*.
They have significantly higher self-discharge than real eneloop.


Ordinary NiMH cell's retain up to 50 % charge after 1 year.
eneloop xx retain up to 75 % charge after 1 year.
Eneloop retain up to 90 % charge after 3 years.


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## Shadowww (Oct 22, 2012)

Viking said:


> I have never heard about them. Don't you mean *eneloop xx*.
> They have significantly higher self-discharge than real eneloop.
> 
> 
> ...


Current generation of XX'es (actually, they're called Eneloop Pro now) retail 85% after a year, which still is very low self-discharge for most purposes.


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## Viking (Oct 22, 2012)

There are many misconceptions regarding the various eneloop model designations.
Actually the Eneloop Pro and Sanyo XX are one and the same battery , directed towards different markets.

It is called XX in USA and Europe , and eneloop pro in Japan.



> An equivalent model of the "eneloop pro" has been marketed in Europe as "XX (double X)".)
> 
> http://panasonic.net/sanyo/news/2011/06/09-1.pdf



According to eneloops own website , and the recently updated wikipedia ( updated two months ago ).
eneloop pro ( eneloop xx ) still only retain 75% of charge after one year.



> From eneloops own website quote:
> 
> 
> *Sanyo's eneloop xx unique features at a glance*
> ...





> From recently updated wikipedia quote:
> 
> 
> *eneloop pro (XX powered by eneloop Technology)*
> ...



You can get a quick overview of the different eneloop models , and their specs both places.


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## Shadowww (Oct 23, 2012)

Viking said:


> There are many misconceptions regarding the various eneloop model designations.
> Actually the Eneloop Pro and Sanyo XX are one and the same battery , directed towards different markets.
> 
> It is called XX in USA and Europe , and eneloop pro in Japan.
> ...


Your sources are a bit outdated 

See Rule #3 Do not Hot Link images. Please host on an image site, Imageshack or similar and repost – Thanks Norm

This new model (HR-3UWXB and HR4-UWXB) maintains 85% after a year.
http://panasonic.co.jp/news/topics/2012/103828.html
http://panasonic.net/energy/eneloop/jp/lineup/eneloop_pro/


> 2.高容量を維持しつつ、従来品※6より自然放電抑制性能を約10％向上
> 充電しておけば1年後でも約85％※7のエネルギーを残存


This translates roughly to "about 10% better LSD performance compared to older generation Eneloop XX'es, approximately 85% remaining capacity after a year".

Not to mention that, while classic Eneloops retain 90% after a year, that's just 2000*0.9 = 1800mAh, while XX'es retain 2500*0.85 = 2125mAh.


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## Viking (Oct 23, 2012)

Okay I did not know about these newly released models.
As I understand it , they have just been released this month in Japan.


Thanks for the info. I'll admit it's a clear improvement.


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## UserName (Nov 4, 2012)

etc said:


> Until Eneloop comes out with a similar capacity, it's not a real competitor with dominant cells.



Anybody reading post #1, from 2007, and thinking, "640K ought to be enough for anyone?"


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## Wrend (Nov 4, 2012)

UserName said:


> Anybody reading post #1, from 2007, and thinking, "640K ought to be enough for anyone?"



No. They're saying more is better. Also, the mentioned capacities are still relevant to today's technology.

I disagree with their conclusions about the usefulness of Eneloops though. Eneloops have the most cumulative lifetime capacity potential of any AA/AAA NiMH cells I know of (the "1500" cycle ones should be about 2.4× the XX cells even), and are low self discharge. I keep extra sets charged and ready to use that I just switch out whenever I need to, so there's no waiting for the cells to charge. After 3 years all my Eneloops are still performing like new.

I expect them to last me at least 5 years and maybe 10 or more.


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## julesrules (Nov 10, 2012)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

im sure if i remember correctly that when a cell is sitting and self discharging, this state also increases the rate of crystalline growth. From experience with high power cells, i could charge them and then from lack of regular (daily) use then cells would appear to need topping charges often and not last as long in overall cell life. LSD cells seem a lot better at retaining their capacity but whether this is due to the low self discharge characteristic or an improvement in cell quality im not sure.


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## Wrend (Nov 12, 2012)

*Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity*

Yes, probably both. The older NiMH and NiCd type cells would need to be cycled more regularly to help maintain performance. Eneloops that have been sitting for a long time can get some performance improvement by cycling them too, but they don't seem to need it as much. And I typically don't need what I would consider high performance from my Eneloops. 2 amps is about the most I need from them.


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## Tzantushka (Aug 25, 2013)

Firstly thanks to everyone's information!
Now I'm aware of the differences in eneloop from ChibiM's comparison chart in this thread.

Question for the experts out there:

- has anyone experienced any appreciable difference between the 3rd gen and 4th gen batteries?

I mean 2100 cycles vs 1800 seems fine, but actual performance differences?


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