# what LiFePO4 configuration are used in these jump start power banks?



## happyguy82 (Oct 20, 2014)

Hello guys,

I am unable to find this info on the public domain, however I reckon a few of us can deduce this w/o having to actually open one up.

So here's the thing, these power banks have *LiFePO4* batteries which give them their high C rating and thus are able to jump start cars. Starting cars require very little energy but very high discharge hence this chemistry along with Li-Po gets the job done.

Here's my question, this power bank is rated at 12,000 mAh. I can't work out whether this refers to the capacity after stepping down to 5V for USB or whether it's the true 12V capacity.

In order to answer this, I guess we need to figure out what batteries are in these things. Since LiFePO4 puts out 3.2v per cell, it's safe to assume that it's in a 4SxP configuration; therefore it's got to have 4 cells in series but a few in parallel in order to achieve the high C rating required for cranking an engine.

Can anyone answer this for sure? Thanks in advance 


[url]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71iMl43YhFL._SL1500_.jpg

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00KIXSXWQ/ref=s9_simh_gw_p263_d0_i4?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0B8V5EPZQ325FC7MCBHY&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=455344027&pf_rd_i=468294[/URL]

*Image tags removed from hot linked image - Norm*


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## StorminMatt (Oct 20, 2014)

Just looking at that picture, I can tell you that this is NOT a 12V, 12000mAH LiFePO4 battery. Or even any other type of Li-Ion battery with anything close to 12V and 12000mAH. It's WAYYYYY too small.


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## hazza (Oct 20, 2014)

I reckon these things are based on a 3-cell series pack of about 4000 mAh. With all cells full charged up to 4.2V each, the whole pack voltage is about right for your jump start. I suspect the pack is very similar to those used in RC toys and capable of >20C.

There are lots of similar products that I've noticed recently, and my impression is that they are all based on pretty much the same principle.


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## Davekan (Oct 20, 2014)

I know that they can easily start a car, but there is no way that that has 12000mah. See video below from different manifacture.

.youtube.com/watch?v=v_WTbDdjn2s


Dave


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## happyguy82 (Oct 21, 2014)

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses. Yeah I doubt their capacity is that high too. They're probably 12,000 mAh at the 5V output for USB charging. Therefore the 12V capacity should be closer to 4,000 mAh.

But how does it achieve 200 CCA and peak at 400 CCA?? Even at 20C this allows the 4Ah battery to put out 80 Amps at max. Or is the CCA value false advertisement too??


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## IonicBond (Oct 21, 2014)

The reason packs like similar ones from Antigravity is that they are rated for a very quick-short engine start - and they do a good job of that.

HOWEVER, what guys quickly learn is that the "real" Ah rating if too small, won't power their radio or heated gloves for an hour. The generally best idea is to fit the largest lifepo4 that will fit into the battery bay.

To see how a flashlight application differs from an SLI application using the same lifepo4 cells, this thread from ADVrider is a good one:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934

Some of you may immediately recognize the user CY, also a flashaholic!


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## gofastman (Oct 21, 2014)

I have a micro jumper pack and a charger/discharge that measures capacity. I can run it for a cycle or two and see what happens. What discharge rate were you looking for? The unit I have has a 2A max.
I would guess that the 400a peak rating is well above the actual C rating for the cell, but the manufacturer is banking on the inherent safety of LiFePO4 cells and the short discharge time.


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## happyguy82 (Oct 22, 2014)

gofastman said:


> I have a micro jumper pack and a charger/discharge that measures capacity. I can run it for a cycle or two and see what happens. What discharge rate were you looking for? The unit I have has a 2A max.
> I would guess that the 400a peak rating is well above the actual C rating for the cell, but the manufacturer is banking on the inherent safety of LiFePO4 cells and the short discharge time.



Ohh yeah that would be great please. I'd love to know that as one of my interests is to use them to power 12V appliances. 2A sounds fine just to get an idea. Cheers.


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## gofastman (Oct 22, 2014)

happyguy82 said:


> Ohh yeah that would be great please. I'd love to know that as one of my interests is to use them to power 12V appliances. 2A sounds fine just to get an idea. Cheers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iGoldBar using Candlepowerforums



Well I'm very surprised by the results! 
I tested the pack at what I thought was a full charge, it was fully charged about 2 or 3 weeks ago after being used to jump a car.
the average discharge current was ~.7th
*2423mah!*
I'll get a graph up soon, I didn't have the USB interface connector with me this time.


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## happyguy82 (Oct 23, 2014)

gofastman said:


> Well I'm very surprised by the results!
> I tested the pack at what I thought was a full charge, it was fully charged about 2 or 3 weeks ago after being used to jump a car.
> the average discharge current was ~.7th
> *2423mah!*
> I'll get a graph up soon, I didn't have the USB interface connector with me this time.



Ahh brilliant. Thanks 


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## IonicBond (Oct 23, 2014)

For powering 12v applicances, small cylindrical cells are not the right cells to use.

You'll be wasting money on a high-rate feature you aren't using, and have a lot of paralelled cells to deal with. The idea is to keep the cell-count low for simplicity and reliability.

The right choice for this application are large-prismatic LiFePo4 cells - like those from GBS, CALB, Winston, Balqon etc. They come in 20 to over 1000ah ranges and are 3.2v nominal. As always, lifepo4 uses LOWER voltages than other lion chemistries do.

For a 12v application, you only need to run a 4S set of cells. Here is an example of a 400ah bank of Winstons. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ8AfJsOhsM

You might do just as well with only 40ah cells - depending on what you want to do and for how long. I personally run a 4S set of GBS cells for my own 2A dc application - you find them at most EV builder / dealers, but I got mine at batteryspace. Instead of being yellow like the Winstons, the GBS cells have a light-blue case with purple terminal covers.


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## happyguy82 (Oct 24, 2014)

IonicBond said:


> For powering 12v applicances, small cylindrical cells are not the right cells to use.
> 
> You'll be wasting money on a high-rate feature you aren't using, and have a lot of paralelled cells to deal with. The idea is to keep the cell-count low for simplicity and reliability.
> 
> ...



Thanks. Yes I'm aware that what I'm trying to do isn't a good approach, however I was looking for a cheap and light solution. I think 3Ah of total energy would suffice for what I need it for  the setup that you have there could power my house with my pure sine wave inverter! Hahahahaha.


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## Exit32 (Oct 24, 2014)

After much research, I bought a Tenergy SideKick STORM Kit Weather Resistant Portable LiFePO4 Power Bank at Amazon. Before I pulled the trigger on this purchase, I learned that most of these so-called LiFePO4 jumper packs have 3 Li-Ion cells in series even when they're labeled as having LiFePO4 cells. My understanding is that having 4 genuine LiFePO4-chemistry cells in series is desirable for automotive jump-start applications, so I went with the Tenergy SideKick jumper kit, even though it was a little more expensive than the imposters.

The way they rate the capacity of these little jumpers is weird. I think they take the mAh capacity of a single cell, then multiply by the number of cells that are within the jump-start pack. For example my Tenergy SideKick is rated at 13600 mAh. Divide that by 4 (the number of 3.6-volt cells inside) and the result is 3400 mAh per cell. At least that's how I think they're calculating capacity. BTW, if the capacity of the pack you're considering isn't divisible by 4 evenly, then it's likely not a four-cell LiFePO4 pack.

I've had my Tenergy SideKick for about a week now and have no regrets. I've used it to charge cell phones and laptops and tested its ability to start a car on my classic 1965 Rambler American. It handles everything with ease. Highly recommended!


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## happyguy82 (Oct 24, 2014)

Exit32 said:


> After much research, I bought a Tenergy SideKick STORM Kit Weather Resistant Portable LiFePO4 Power Bank at Amazon. Before I pulled the trigger on this purchase, I learned that most of these so-called LiFePO4 jumper packs have 3 Li-Ion cells in series even when they're labeled as having LiFePO4 cells. My understanding is that having 4 genuine LiFePO4-chemistry cells in series is desirable for automotive jump-start applications, so I went with the Tenergy SideKick jumper kit, even though it was a little more expensive than the imposters.
> 
> The way they rate the capacity of these little jumpers is weird. I think they take the mAh capacity of a single cell, then multiply by the number of cells that are within the jump-start pack. For example my Tenergy SideKick is rated at 13600 mAh. Divide that by 4 (the number of 3.6-volt cells inside) and the result is 3400 mAh per cell. At least that's how I think they're calculating capacity. BTW, if the capacity of the pack you're considering isn't divisible by 4 evenly, then it's likely not a four-cell LiFePO4 pack.
> 
> I've had my Tenergy SideKick for about a week now and have no regrets. I've used it to charge cell phones and laptops and tested its ability to start a car on my classic 1965 Rambler American. It handles everything with ease. Highly recommended!



Thank you so much for the helpful response. That clears things up. I guess they mean to say it's around 13600mAh at the 5v USB output then? I'll look them up online.


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## Gauss163 (Oct 24, 2014)

*Capacity rating is probably at nominal 3.2V*



happyguy82 said:


> Thank you so much for the helpful response. That clears things up. I guess they mean to say it's around 13600mAh at the 5v USB output then?



Probably not. The 12000mAh rating is probably at the nominal 3.2V LiFePo4 cell voltage, implying the pack is 38.4Wh (same capacity as 4x 2600mAh 3.7V 18650 cells).

But the above discharge test implies it is probably 12.8V * 2.423Ah = 31Wh, so 9692mAh at 3.2V, equal to 3x 2800 3.7V cells (or 4x 2100).

So the primary advantage is its high burst current. It's very weak capacity-wise for its size (status quo for high-current packs).


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## happyguy82 (Oct 24, 2014)

*Re: Capacity rating is probably at nominal 3.2V*



Gauss163 said:


> Probably not. The 12000mAh rating is probably at the nominal 3.2V LiFePo4 cell voltage, implying the pack is 38.4Wh (same capacity as 4x 2600mAh 3.7V 18650 cells).
> 
> But the above discharge test implies it is probably 12.8V * 2.423Ah = 31Wh, so 9692mAh at 3.2V, equal to 3x 2800 3.7V cells (or 4x 2100).
> 
> So the primary advantage is its high burst current. It's very weak capacity-wise for its size (status quo for high-current packs).



Ahh ok thanks again.


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## StandardBattery (Oct 25, 2014)

*Re: Capacity rating is probably at nominal 3.2V*

I'm guessing these have to be at least 4S (maybe 4S2P, but test above seems to disprove this). I'm going to measure the OCV on a full change and I think from that we should be able to determine if it's 4S, or 5S. I don't believe 3S with LiFePo4 cells would be a high enough voltage.


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## onetrickpony (Oct 25, 2014)

*Re: Capacity rating is probably at nominal 3.2V*

Here's the only one I could find that I would trust to do what was claimed: 
http://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4-26650-PowerSport-Starter-Battery-12V-10Ah-128Wh-500A-Rate.aspx


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## Exit32 (Oct 25, 2014)

*Re: Capacity rating is probably at nominal 3.2V*



StandardBattery said:


> I'm guessing these have to be at least 4S (maybe 4S2P, but test above seems to disprove this). I'm going to measure the OCV on a full change and I think from that we should be able to determine if it's 4S, or 5S. I don't believe 3S with LiFePo4 cells would be a high enough voltage.



If the jumper pack really has LiFePO4 cells inside, you'll find 4 cells in series. The cheaper jumper packs use 3 Li-Ion cells in series. Just be aware that some of the cheap packs CLAIM to have LiFePO4 cells inside but don't.


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## happyguy82 (Oct 26, 2014)

*Re: Capacity rating is probably at nominal 3.2V*



onetrickpony said:


> Here's the only one I could find that I would trust to do what was claimed:
> http://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4-26650-PowerSport-Starter-Battery-12V-10Ah-128Wh-500A-Rate.aspx



That's insane. An identically sized SLA battery costs just 10% of that. http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=311057283799 


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## Exit32 (Oct 26, 2014)

*13.4 volts off the charger*

FWIW, I charged my Tenergy LiFePO4 jumper pack and measured 13.40 volts immediately after disconnecting the charger. Assuming there are four LiFePO4 cells in series inside, that's 3.35 volts per cell. If by chance there were three Li-Ion cells in series inside, each would have to be charged to 4.47 volts per cell -- much too much voltage.


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## happyguy82 (Oct 26, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

Tenergy won't use Li-Ion cells. They are a large manufacturer of LiFePO4 cells and are what they're well known for.



Exit32 said:


> FWIW, I charged my Tenergy LiFePO4 jumper pack and measured 13.40 volts immediately after disconnecting the charger. Assuming there are four LiFePO4 cells in series inside, that's 3.35 volts per cell. If by chance there were three Li-Ion cells in series inside, each would have to be charged to 4.47 volts per cell -- much too much voltage.


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## StandardBattery (Oct 26, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

Interesting. My Power-All is only measuring 12.58V, but it never seems to be able to lock in the final LED for fully charged. That voltage would tend to indicate only 3 LiIon cells in series. I think I have to open it up, if it only has 3 we need to let people know not to buy this brand.


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## StandardBattery (Oct 26, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

PowerAll seems to use a battery pack numbered "LPB 7242125U XT". does not look like cylindrical cells makeup the pack. Looks like maybe Lithium Polymer pack.

I would say that even though the voltage is low, this device is likely using a special high-discharge pack, but I might just pick up a Tenergy unit to be safe. I don't know if any of these will really work in -20C winter conditions, but they are handy.


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## happyguy82 (Oct 26, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



StandardBattery said:


> PowerAll seems to use a battery pack numbered "LPB 7242125U XT". does not look like cylindrical cells makeup the pack. Looks like maybe Lithium Polymer pack.
> 
> I would say that even though the voltage is low, this device is likely using a special high-discharge pack, but I might just pick up a Tenergy unit to be safe. I don't know if any of these will really work in -20C winter conditions, but they are handy.


 LiPo have a much higher discharge rate than LiFePO4 or IMR cells though.


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## StandardBattery (Oct 26, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



happyguy82 said:


> LiPo have a much higher discharge rate than LiFePO4 or IMR cells though.



So the PowerAll might be a pretty good pack then. I'm not familair with discharge capacity of LiPo.


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## happyguy82 (Oct 26, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



StandardBattery said:


> So the PowerAll might be a pretty good pack then. I'm not familair with discharge capacity of LiPo.



Ahh LiPo has by far the highest discharge rate. You could get for example 30C on a 2200mAh cell which means you could draw 66Amps from that battery. 

It is for this reason that they power almost all R/C aircraft. I.e. An application where you need very high amperage and little weight for a very short time. This is why R/C helicopters or planes only run for a few minutes.


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## StandardBattery (Oct 27, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



happyguy82 said:


> Ahh LiPo has by far the highest discharge rate. You could get for example 30C on a 2200mAh cell which means you could draw 66Amps from that battery.
> 
> It is for this reason that they power almost all R/C aircraft. I.e. An application where you need very high amperage and little weight for a very short time. This is why R/C helicopters or planes only run for a few minutes.


Thanks! Maybe the pack could use a little conditioning (it's very new) so I used it to charge my iPad from 41% charge state to 100% and it worked well. I'll change a couple more USB devices and then recharge the pack. It could be the electronics are out of alignment a bit at that is by the pack never says fully charged, but I think based on my voltage tests it is essentially.


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## happyguy82 (Oct 27, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



StandardBattery said:


> Thanks! Maybe the pack could use a little conditioning (it's very new) so I used it to charge my iPad from 41% charge state to 100% and it worked well. I'll change a couple more USB devices and then recharge the pack. It could be the electronics are out of alignment a bit at that is by the pack never says fully charged, but I think based on my voltage tests it is essentially.



Very possible. Yeah exercise the cells a bit. Regarding electronics being out of alignment, if you're referring to calibration then it could be. Just note that the 12v jump start output should be a direct connection to the cells with no electronics in the way.


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## SemiMan (Nov 1, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



happyguy82 said:


> LiPo have a much higher discharge rate than LiFePO4 or IMR cells though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iGoldBar using Candlepowerforums



That's simply not true. LiPo is a construction method ... Not a chemistry. As a chemistry there are inherent advantages of LiFePO4 one of them being able to pull high currents safely as they don't have violent failure mechanisms. Some other advantages wrt ability to increase effective area for higher currents.


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## happyguy82 (Nov 1, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



SemiMan said:


> That's simply not true. LiPo is a construction method ... Not a chemistry. As a chemistry there are inherent advantages of LiFePO4 one of them being able to pull high currents safely as they don't have violent failure mechanisms. Some other advantages wrt ability to increase effective area for higher currents.



Ahh ok thanks for pointing it out.


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## gofastman (Nov 4, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

Just a comment about my jumper pack. Although I was surprised by its low mah capacity, I was able to jump a completely dead (battery was ~5v) V8 land Rover 5 times in a row! I could have roasted a marshmallow on the leads afterwards, but it worked!


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## StandardBattery (Nov 4, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



gofastman said:


> Just a comment about my jumper pack. Although I was surprised by its low mah capacity, I was able to jump a completely dead (battery was ~5v) V8 land Rover 5 times in a row! I could have roasted a marshmallow on the leads afterwards, but it worked!


Which model did you use?


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## gofastman (Nov 4, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



StandardBattery said:


> Which model did you use?



It's the zeta deluxe one, pretty sure it's Lipo, not lifepo4


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## happyguy82 (Nov 5, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



gofastman said:


> Just a comment about my jumper pack. Although I was surprised by its low mah capacity, I was able to jump a completely dead (battery was ~5v) V8 land Rover 5 times in a row! I could have roasted a marshmallow on the leads afterwards, but it worked!



If you're cranking at 400 Amps for 3 seconds, that'll consume just 330mAh so doesn't matter if the capacity is low.


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## boyelectric (Dec 17, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

So.... I see the Tenergy Sidekick is rated at 13600mAh, and 400A. That's fine for most cars, but what about a large diesel pickup? Most of the SLA varieties of portable battery jump starters are 600A peak, 300A output. I know that in buying a regular lead acid battery, I am supposed to be looking at around 700A.

Are there ANY portable jump starters that use LiFePO4 cells, and kick out higher cranking amps?


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## happyguy82 (Dec 17, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



boyelectric said:


> So.... I see the Tenergy Sidekick is rated at 13600mAh, and 400A. That's fine for most cars, but what about a large diesel pickup? Most of the SLA varieties of portable battery jump starters are 600A peak, 300A output. I know that in buying a regular lead acid battery, I am supposed to be looking at around 700A.
> 
> Are there ANY portable jump starters that use LiFePO4 cells, and kick out higher cranking amps?



Yes Tenergy is the leading manufacturer of LiFePO4 cells. You won't need the full 700A because the residual charge on your vehicle's battery would also contribute to the current.


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## gofastman (Dec 18, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



boyelectric said:


> So.... I see the Tenergy Sidekick is rated at 13600mAh, and 400A. That's fine for most cars, but what about a large diesel pickup? Most of the SLA varieties of portable battery jump starters are 600A peak, 300A output. I know that in buying a regular lead acid battery, I am supposed to be looking at around 700A.
> 
> Are there ANY portable jump starters that use LiFePO4 cells, and kick out higher cranking amps?



Not as compact, but there is this option
http://atdtools.com/5900


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## boyelectric (Dec 18, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



gofastman said:


> Not as compact, but there is this option
> http://atdtools.com/5900



I think that the ATD-5900 model referenced here is a Li-ion pillow pack... I'm not too fond of the durability of those packs. I was really trying to find something that was a real LiFePO4 cell based unit. On a related note, I am amazed at how frequently the asian 'wholesale' sites claim their stuff is LiFePO4, when it clearly cannot be. Just amazing...


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## boyelectric (Dec 18, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



happyguy82 said:


> Yes Tenergy is the leading manufacturer of LiFePO4 cells. You won't need the full 700A because the residual charge on your vehicle's battery would also contribute to the current.



Are you suggesting that the 400A (max) is enough then? With a big diesel, I worry that 400A is not enough, if it only lasts a few seconds.


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## boyelectric (Dec 19, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

...aaaand just got off the phone with Tenergy. They have no plans for an bigger version of the sidekick jump starter. Here's the kicker: they don't actually make it themselves, they import this item, and slap their name on it. back to the drawing board for me!


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## happyguy82 (Dec 19, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



boyelectric said:


> ...aaaand just got off the phone with Tenergy. They have no plans for an bigger version of the sidekick jump starter. Here's the kicker: they don't actually make it themselves, they import this item, and slap their name on it. back to the drawing board for me!



Ahh ok thanks for solving the mystery. I was wondering why all of them looked identical. In this case we still don't know if the cells are indeed LiFePO4. Or did they tell you that it is??


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## happyguy82 (Dec 25, 2014)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

I'm thinking of buying one of these. At this price, it is quite a cheap toy to experiment with.

This listing has nice photos of the inside of the unit:

http://bit.ly/1xNq84g

What do you think? The listing states Li-Ion though...


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## SemiMan (Dec 25, 2014)

Lithium Cobalt .... Says right in the specs. Look to be lithium polymer construction. Definitely not LiFePO4.


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## happyguy82 (Dec 25, 2014)

SemiMan said:


> Lithium Cobalt .... Says right in the specs. Look to be lithium polymer construction. Definitely not LiFePO4.



Yeah from what I read that's Li-Ion rather than LiPo. If it's LiPo I'd be worried they'll blow up especially with dodgy Chinese charging circuitry.


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## SemiMan (Dec 25, 2014)

LiPo in almost all cases is Lithium Cobalt. LiPo is a construction method not a chemistry.


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## happyguy82 (Dec 25, 2014)

SemiMan said:


> LiPo in almost all cases is Lithium Cobalt. LiPo is a construction method not a chemistry.



Ohh ok that is promising to know that it will be able to jump start with its high discharge rate. Thanks. Am still worried about the charging part though hehehe.


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## boyelectric (Jan 2, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



happyguy82 said:


> Ahh ok thanks for solving the mystery. I was wondering why all of them looked identical. In this case we still don't know if the cells are indeed LiFePO4.



If I were to guess, I would say they are prismatic LiFePO4 cells... Likely a premodern package from a Chinese supplier, or their 'own' prismatic packs see here...http://www.tenergy.com/Site/LiFe-Prismatic


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## happyguy82 (Jan 2, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



boyelectric said:


> If I were to guess, I would say they are prismatic LiFePO4 cells... Likely a premodern package from a Chinese supplier, or their 'own' prismatic packs see here...http://www.tenergy.com/Site/LiFe-Prismatic



Hi,

This is what it looks like on the inside:

Any comments?

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/...V-Car-Engine-Emergency-Battery-Power-Bank.jpg

*Image tags removed see Rule #3 Do not Hot Link images. Please host on an image site, Imageshack or similar and repost – Thanks Norm*


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## lonesouth (Jan 7, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

so what is the consensus on these for use in just jump starting, forget the ancillary function of charging phones and other stuff. Does the battery chemestry really matter just for jump starting, or should I just get the cheapest thing available?


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## happyguy82 (Jan 7, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



lonesouth said:


> so what is the consensus on these for use in just jump starting, forget the ancillary function of charging phones and other stuff. Does the battery chemestry really matter just for jump starting, or should I just get the cheapest thing available?



Yes chemistry matters because some have higher discharge rates than others. You don't need to worry about the battery's capacity because as I've pointed out, only a few hundred mAh is required to start a vehicle.

The order of discharge rates among popular chemistry is:

LiPo -> LiFePO4 -> IMR LiIon -> LiIon

Hope this helps.


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## happyguy82 (Jan 7, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

I've purchased one of these. I'll run some tests and measurements when I get them, after which I'll report them here.


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## SemiMan (Jan 7, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



happyguy82 said:


> Yes chemistry matters because some have higher discharge rates than others. You don't need to worry about the battery's capacity because as I've pointed out, only a few hundred mAh is required to start a vehicle.
> 
> The order of discharge rates among popular chemistry is:
> 
> ...



LiPo is not a chemistry it is a construction method. Lifep04 and IMR are both lithium ion.

Posted by really crappy Tapatalk app that is questionable wrt respect of personal data.


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## happyguy82 (Jan 8, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



SemiMan said:


> LiPo is not a chemistry it is a construction method. Lifep04 and IMR are both lithium ion.
> 
> Posted by really crappy Tapatalk app that is questionable wrt respect of personal data.



Ahh yes I keep forgetting that. I'll call them cell types going forward.


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----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 9, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

I can report that my PowerAll was able to jump my 350 v6 in -19°C and the pack was also stored in the car so it was pretty cold itself. Funny that since that jump I've not had to do it again and my battery is working better than before. It must have burned off the deposits shorting the plates when I tried to start it a couple of times and it failed before using the PowerAll.


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 10, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



StandardBattery said:


> I can report that my PowerAll was able to jump my 350 v6 in -19°C and the pack was also stored in the car so it was pretty cold itself. Funny that since that jump I've not had to do it again and my battery is working better than before. It must have burned off the deposits shorting the plates when I tried to start it a couple of times and it failed before using the PowerAll.



Great to hear  for our benefit Pls let us know your car battery's chemistry. Is it AGM or wet or MF wet? Etc. thx.


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----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 10, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



happyguy82 said:


> Great to hear  for our benefit Pls let us know your car battery's chemistry. Is it AGM or wet or MF wet? Etc. thx.


 I'll see if the battery has any identification on it that I can decern, but I'm pretty sure it's just a standard flooded battery.


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 10, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



StandardBattery said:


> I'll see if the battery has any identification on it that I can decern, but I'm pretty sure it's just a standard flooded battery.


ok great.


----------



## realista (Jan 13, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

if a jump starter is REALLY made of 4 lifepo4 in series ( then in parallel), i don't understand WHY all manifacturers say that you should quickly disconnect it from the car .....when you switch on the engine. i thought that it is EQUAL TO a lifepo4 car battery of new generation, that can be recharged by the alternator.

please, can someone advice me the truth? i think that a jump starter could be leave all time you want attached to the car.... why should be broken ??


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 13, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



realista said:


> if a jump starter is REALLY made of 4 lifepo4 in series ( then in parallel), i don't understand WHY all manifacturers say that you should quickly disconnect it from the car .....when you switch on the engine. i thought that it is EQUAL TO a lifepo4 car battery of new generation, that can be recharged by the alternator.
> 
> please, can someone advice me the truth? i think that a jump starter could be leave all time you want attached to the car.... why should be broken ??



I am quite sure this is because the connection to the Lithium battery ( regardless of chemistry) is unprotected and thus direct. No protection circuit will be able to handle a few hundred Amps thus it's a direct connection. The corollary is the possibility of the alternator overcharging the Lithium battery till it explodes. No Lithium cell should ever be used without overcharging / overdischarging protection due to their nature. A vehicle's alternator generates over 14v thus there is a risk.


----------



## realista (Jan 13, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

what kind of risk???
4x 3,6v = 14,4v so should be ok to charge a 4series with the auto.....


----------



## Gauss163 (Jan 13, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

They are usually 3x 3.7V LiPo cells in series so the termination voltage is 3 x 4.2 = 12.6V. Many of them have a schottky diode bank on the jumper cable to prevent the alternator from charging the jumper pack.


----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 13, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



Gauss163 said:


> They are usually 3x 3.7V LiPo cells in series so the termination voltage is 3 x 4.2 = 12.6V. Many of them have a schottky diode bank on the jumper cable to prevent the alternator from charging the jumper pack.



+1 my AllPower seems to be this way, and I just tested my new Micro-Start XP-3 and it's measuring 12.53 volts, but there was no number on the battery. I have not had the occasion to test it for jumping, but I recently picked it up for $82 and I think it's a relative deal at that price. It came with the newer USB adapter that includes a lightning connector which is handy, and the jumper cable has protection fuses on both leads which seems a bit strange. The instuctions don't seem to match this unit, but that's not a huge, problem, except I'd go to their website for the specs if your interested in those. Really nice unit and does all I need so I recommend it over the Powerall, and I like the soft case the XP-3 came in too over the hard cheap plastic case of the PowerAll.


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 14, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



Gauss163 said:


> They are usually 3x 3.7V LiPo cells in series so the termination voltage is 3 x 4.2 = 12.6V. Many of them have a schottky diode bank on the jumper cable to prevent the alternator from charging the jumper pack.



Ohh is that a diode? I always thought it's a fuse to protect against reversed connection. I guess a schottky would work too but didn't realise there were diodes that could handle 400amps!


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----------



## Gauss163 (Jan 14, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



happyguy82 said:


> Ohh is that a diode? I always thought it's a fuse to protect against reversed connection. I guess a schottky would work too but didn't realise there were diodes that could handle 400amps!



Below are photos of disassembled common jumper cables (from eBay listings). They use 4x 42CTQ030S Schottky rectifiers by International Rectifier (possibly clones). I vaguely recall seeing a couple reviewers report that the PCB got so hot that the cable desoldered from the PCB (I don't recall if it was one of these). The instructions often recommend to disconnect asap after the jump. 










.


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 14, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

Brilliant pictures. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 14, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



happyguy82 said:


> Brilliant pictures. Thanks for sharing.


*+1

*I just checked, my micro-start XP-3 and it answers one of my questions; on the jump-cable I have on the negative is a big fuse, and on the positive is a circuit like is in the picture. I never thought to open both of them after I opened one of them and found a fuse. So then I opened the AllPower, that one just has a single protection device on the positive lead and the circuit is similar to the above except all 4 semiconductors are on one side of the board so it's slimmer but a bit longer.


----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 17, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

I have yet to replace my battery so when temperature dropped one day this week i had the opportunity to test a jump with the micro-start XP-3. No problems it jumped it easy first time. I really like this unit for the small size of the device and the overall small size of the kit with accessories. One thing i don't like about it is the 12V barrel connector used for the AC charger and the 12V charger uses a small connector rather than the standard size. This is annoying if you already carry a general 12V cigarette/accessory adapter for many things or if you need the replace the cable or adapter. There is space for a standard sized one i think so they lose 1/2 star for this. I should get a new battery, but then i'll have no test platform. The prices are a bit high on these type devices, but they sure are handy and would have been great when i was younger and had to deal with booster cables more.


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 17, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

The first thing I'd do when mine arrives is to throw away the 12v and mains charger. These things use standard 5mm jacks. Any 12v - 15v adaptor lying around would charge them.


----------



## SemiMan (Jan 17, 2015)

There are about 15 different barrel style connectors with no standard in site.


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 17, 2015)

ahh I meant this one. 5.5mm is the most common one and is used in just about every charger, vacuum cleaner etc that I have 

]http://fasttechcdn.com/products/142/1427205/1427205-1.jpg

*See Rule #3 Do not Hot Link images. Please host on an image site, Imageshack or similar and repost – Thanks Norm*


----------



## SemiMan (Jan 17, 2015)

I probably have about 15 of these with 5 different barrel/pin diameters and unless they match the connection is flaky. Top that off with some are regulated and some are not and a variety of different voltages.

A standard would be nice.


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 24, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



StandardBattery said:


> +1 my AllPower seems to be this way, and I just tested my new Micro-Start XP-3 and it's measuring 12.53 volts, but there was no number on the battery. I have not had the occasion to test it for jumping, but I recently picked it up for $82 and I think it's a relative deal at that price. It came with the newer USB adapter that includes a lightning connector which is handy, and the jumper cable has protection fuses on both leads which seems a bit strange. The instuctions don't seem to match this unit, but that's not a huge, problem, except I'd go to their website for the specs if your interested in those. Really nice unit and does all I need so I recommend it over the Powerall, and I like the soft case the XP-3 came in too over the hard cheap plastic case of the PowerAll.



Hello! I've received mine today. The clamps measure at almost exactly 12v. Anyway, I can't seem to fully charge it. I've hooked it up to the wall socket adaptor for hours and yet the battery level remains at 3/4 LEDs. I'm not even sure if it's charging so what I'm doing now is to discharge it slightly and then I'm going to leave it charging overnight. How long do these things take to charge? I'm starting to feel a little disconcerted now.

To add to my fear, the battery (clamp terminal) measured 12v even with the charging lead connected.

Please advise.

Thanks.


----------



## SemiMan (Jan 24, 2015)

12-16 hours is not unusual.


----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 25, 2015)

If your meter is accurate it seems it's safe to keep it charging for a while. 

As I mentioned in earlier on my AllPower it might be the charge cut-off is not properly calibrated. Based on comments on Amazon for several products it could be this is a fairly common issue. Too early to say on yours.


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 25, 2015)

StandardBattery said:


> If your meter is accurate it seems it's safe to keep it charging for a while.
> 
> As I mentioned in earlier on my AllPower it might be the charge cut-off is not properly calibrated. Based on comments on Amazon for several products it could be this is a fairly common issue. Too early to say on yours.



OK mine's a bit rubbish. No one can understand the Chinese English instructions. When I connected it to the charger last night, I saw 3 solid LEDs on the battery level and the last LED blinking (it's installed so poorly that the last LED rests behind the case). A few hours later all but 1 LED went off, with the last one flashing very rapidly. Now I see this rapid flashing whenever I try to charge. I'm not sure whether this indicates an 'error' or a full charge. I've observed the same with a variety of 12v input supplies so it shouldn't be due to the input that I'm feeding it.

The voltmeter did raise from 11.45v to 12v. I gather it did charge a little. I've got to run some more tests to be sure.

Does anyone know how to interpret the blinking lights?


----------



## Exit32 (Jan 25, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



happyguy82 said:


> Hello! I've received mine today. The clamps measure at almost exactly 12v. Anyway, I can't seem to fully charge it. I've hooked it up to the wall socket adaptor for hours and yet the battery level remains at 3/4 LEDs. I'm not even sure if it's charging so what I'm doing now is to discharge it slightly and then I'm going to leave it charging overnight. How long do these things take to charge? I'm starting to feel a little disconcerted now.
> 
> To add to my fear, the battery (clamp terminal) measured 12v even with the charging lead connected.
> 
> ...



Several posts here mention that the charge indicator shows 3/4-full when owners of these jumper packs believe they're fully charged. My guess is that these jumper packs were designed to accommodate four LiFePO cells in series, then someone decided they could substitute three LiOn cells in series to reduce cost.

The charge indicator still thinks it's connected to four LiFePO cells in series (approximately 13.4 volts fully charged) rather than three LiOn cells in series (approximately 12.6 volts fully charged). So, my theory is that the lower voltage of the fully charged LiOn cells causes the charge indicator to display less than a full charge, even when the LiOn cells are fully charged.

Make sense?


----------



## SemiMan (Jan 25, 2015)

Not likely since need much more accurate charging for cobalt lithium cells


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 25, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



Exit32 said:


> Several posts here mention that the charge indicator shows 3/4-full when owners of these jumper packs believe they're fully charged. My guess is that these jumper packs were designed to accommodate four LiFePO cells in series, then someone decided they could substitute three LiOn cells in series to reduce cost.
> 
> The charge indicator still thinks it's connected to four LiFePO cells in series (approximately 13.4 volts fully charged) rather than three LiOn cells in series (approximately 12.6 volts fully charged). So, my theory is that the lower voltage of the fully charged LiOn cells causes the charge indicator to display less than a full charge, even when the LiOn cells are fully charged.
> 
> Make sense?



Well not really because then the charger wouldn't cut off at 12v. I can't seem to get it over 12v!!!  perhaps should try unbalanced charging through the jump start connector? Lol!

Anyway here's the latest. I got it up to 12v. Jump started my boxer 3 times. Took it back in to charge a Nokia Lumia via USB. Then connected the 12v output to a universal Li-Ion charger to charge a small 3.6v cell. The charging cut off halfway because the power bank fell to 11.5v. At this point the battery indicator shows 2/4 LEDs. I then used the cable clamps to draw 12v at 2.5amps to turbo charge a set of 4 AA NiMH cells which took 15 minutes.

At the end of all these the indicator dropped to 1 light.

I can confirm that the rapid blinking means the powebank is fully charged and not an error.

I am disappointed that the pack doesn't hold anywhere near the 38,000mAh that the sticker says! It's probably 3Ah!


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----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 25, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*

Hi all,

Here's an update...

I've opened the powerbank up and to my disappointment they are indeed Li-Ion rather than LiFePO4 cells. This is evident from the battery's blue shrink wrap instead of the green one.

I've taken the following picture of the wiring output. I'm guessing this is a 4S1P battery. Could someone please take a look and confirm?

Any ideas what the wires represent? i.e. which one taps which cell etc. I could try to charge the cells individually using an external Li-Ion charger.

http://freeimagehosting.nl/site2/image.php?di=M4IW





http://freeimagehosting.nl/site2/image.php?di=5EJV





Thanks.


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## happyguy82 (Jan 25, 2015)

The more I look at it the more I think it's a 3S1P. Both red and both black are probably shorted. So the 2 Middle wires are the taps between the middle cell. Right??


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----------



## Beacon of Light (Jan 25, 2015)

I was hoping the USB to 4.5mm barrel connector would work to power my RED FUEL charger. I bought the USB cable separately as it just came with a wall wart power supply and I like the idea of charging using my laptops USB3.0 port. Well it took a couple of weeks to arrive from China and it plugs in but is a bit wonky and wobbly even though it feels plugged in securely. Anyhow the cable doesn't power up the unit to charge it. I will have to contact the manufacturer to see what the exact specs are of the input port of the RED FUEL charger.

http://redfuelpower.com/



happyguy82 said:


> ahh I meant this one. 5.5mm is the most common one and is used in just about every charger, vacuum cleaner etc that I have
> 
> http://fasttechcdn.com/products/142/1427205/1427205-1.jpg
> 
> *See Rule #3 Do not Hot Link images. Please host on an image site, Imageshack or similar and repost – Thanks Norm*


----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 25, 2015)

Your cell looks different that either of mine, but I still think it is LiPo type. My All Power had a nice yellow wrap with commercial numbered pack. I don't think I took a picture of it internally. My Micro-Start had more of a strange cell that was more square, fiber insulator around it and even some hand written numbers in ink near the connections. I think I remember taking a picture. I'm pretty sure both of mine are LiPo packs.


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## happyguy82 (Jan 26, 2015)

StandardBattery said:


> Your cell looks different that either of mine, but I still think it is LiPo type. My All Power had a nice yellow wrap with commercial numbered pack. I don't think I took a picture of it internally. My Micro-Start had more of a strange cell that was more square, fiber insulator around it and even some hand written numbers in ink near the connections. I think I remember taking a picture. I'm pretty sure both of mine are LiPo packs.



Do you think I can charge mine properly with this? http://www.skyrc.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=9


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## happyguy82 (Jan 26, 2015)

By the way,

here's a close up picture of the balancing connector of this battery pack:

http://freeimagehosting.nl/site2/image.php?di=RA4K


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## StandardBattery (Jan 26, 2015)

happyguy82 said:


> Do you think I can charge mine properly with this? http://www.skyrc.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=9
> 
> 
> Sent from my iGoldBar using Candlepowerforums



That should charge any of the Lithium-Ion cells in these packs. It needs a power supply though. I have one of the new B6 Mini which I quite like for small jobs, I never owned the standard iMAX B6. 

I don't think either of my powebanks have a nice plug for the battery like that. Maybe they were all covered I can't remember now.


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## happyguy82 (Jan 26, 2015)

StandardBattery said:


> That should charge any of the Lithium-Ion cells in these packs. It needs a power supply though. I have one of the new B6 Mini which I quite like for small jobs, I never owned the standard iMAX B6.
> 
> I don't think either of my powebanks have a nice plug for the battery like that. Maybe they were all covered I can't remember now.



Hi thanks once again. I didn't want to pay for the B6 Mini as it's double the price. I've got a 16v 4A power adaptor that came with my 15 minute NiMH turbo charger. That seems to be within the operating range of the IMax B6 so will use that.

I think to start off with, i'll try charging it 'unbalanced' i.e. using the output crocodile clips to the alligator clips on the B6. Given the cells are still new, it shouldn't be a problem I guess. I'll set the B6 to do 11.1v LiPo. Let me know if you feel that's a bad idea.

cheers.

P.S. I can't logic why they would install a Li Ion charger rather than LiPo in that unit. Surely they don't cost more as it's only a matter of configuration.


----------



## Gauss163 (Jan 26, 2015)

@happyguy82 How did you manage to open the case? I have a similar unit and it doesn't seem to budge.at all.


----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 26, 2015)

happyguy82 said:


> Hi thanks once again. I didn't want to pay for the B6 Mini as it's double the price. I've got a 16v 4A power adaptor that came with my 15 minute NiMH turbo charger. That seems to be within the operating range of the IMax B6 so will use that.
> 
> I think to start off with, i'll try charging it 'unbalanced' i.e. using the output crocodile clips to the alligator clips on the B6. Given the cells are still new, it shouldn't be a problem I guess. I'll set the B6 to do 11.1v LiPo. Let me know if you feel that's a bad idea.
> 
> ...


That power supply should be a perfect match for that charger with 3S cells.

Yeah, if I remember right the B6 mini is over priced compared to the competition even. I got mine for an OK deal, but the iCharger series is pretty popular when you start looking at bigger units. The Dynamite Chargers seem popular since they have the AC built in and are good for a novice I think.


----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 26, 2015)

Micro-Start XP-3 Inside View


----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 26, 2015)

StandardBattery said:


> That power supply should be a perfect match for that charger with 3S cells.
> 
> ......



Of course you'll need something to convert that plug. or convert the plug on the battery to one of the more standard ones used for RC, as that looks like something different.


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 27, 2015)

StandardBattery said:


> Of course you'll need something to convert that plug. or convert the plug on the battery to one of the more standard ones used for RC, as that looks like something different.



Ohh yeah that's the least of my worries. I'll convert it somehow or wire it up. There's another model IMax B6AC which has a built in AC transformer, but that unit is massive. I'm trying to cut down on the number of adaptors/transformers I have at home anyway.

Just as I went to bed, I realised I can't charge the powerbank through the crocodile clips as the schottky diodes will prevent that. I'll hook the charger up directly to the 12v output port instead. will let you know the results. The charger will only arrive this weekend though.

Thanks.


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 27, 2015)

Gauss163 said:


> @happyguy82 How did you manage to open the case? I have a similar unit and it doesn't seem to budge.at all.



It's tricky until you've done it once. First remove the 2 screws, secondly try to pry the 2 halves apart from the edge where the screws were. be careful not to tear the 12v output silicon cover. The opposite edge of the case is held together by clips, don't pry these open as they'll come apart once you have opened it up from the screw edge.

Use the LED light faceplate as a guide to slide the halves apart. That helps too. All the best.


----------



## Whitedog1 (Jan 27, 2015)

happyguy82 said:


> OK mine's a bit rubbish. No one can understand the Chinese English instructions. When I connected it to the charger last night, I saw 3 solid LEDs on the battery level and the last LED blinking (it's installed so poorly that the last LED rests behind the case). A few hours later all but 1 LED went off, with the last one flashing very rapidly. Now I see this rapid flashing whenever I try to charge. I'm not sure whether this indicates an 'error' or a full charge. I've observed the same with a variety of 12v input supplies so it shouldn't be due to the input that I'm feeding it.
> 
> The voltmeter did raise from 11.45v to 12v. I gather it did charge a little. I've got to run some more tests to be sure.
> 
> Does anyone know how to interpret the blinking lights?



Got yesterday a unit with similar behaviour!
But after switching the unit "on" and connecting the charger it charges up to 12.5V!
Maybe you try this and Report back!


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 27, 2015)

Whitedog1 said:


> Got yesterday a unit with similar behaviour!
> But after switching the unit "on" and connecting the charger it charges up to 12.5V!
> Maybe you try this and Report back!



12.5v is very good!!!

I've just used mine to power my work laptop. output 19v, so some energy loss from stepping up 12v to 19v. The laptop is a Core i3 with no dedicated GPU, low consumption crap laptop. HP 630. It lasted for a whole 2 hours powering it. Not sure what the current drain was though.

I'm keen to try the external charging method this weekend.

Still jealous yours gets up to 12.5v. How'd you do that???? %£%%!$£$%&**&$^"*&$


----------



## Whitedog1 (Jan 27, 2015)

happyguy82 said:


> 12.5v is very good!!!
> 
> I've just used mine to power my work laptop. output 19v, so some energy loss from stepping up 12v to 19v. The laptop is a Core i3 with no dedicated GPU, low consumption crap laptop. HP 630. It lasted for a whole 2 hours powering it. Not sure what the current drain was though.
> 
> ...



As i said above:
Switch the unit "on" with the slider (but don't toucht the pushbutton - so no leds are on!!) and then connect the charger! Voila it charges to 12.5V!!


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 27, 2015)

Whitedog1 said:


> As i said above:
> Switch the unit "on" with the slider (but don't toucht the pushbutton - so no leds are on!!) and then connect the charger! Voila it charges to 12.5V!!



Ahh ok I'm keen to try that thanks. I'll need to wait for the weekend as I haven't got my multimeter with me now. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 27, 2015)

happyguy82 said:


> ?.... There's another model IMax B6AC which has a built in AC transformer, but that unit is massive. .....
> 
> .... I'll hook the charger up directly to the 12v output port instead. will let you know the results. ....


Ya that AC one is quite big I thought about that, but the small size of the mini I liked as I have to many chargers already taking space. I was going to use an electronics bench supply for power, but in the end I got one of their efuel supplies thinking I could use it for a few things. I probably should have just gone with the regular B6, as all my RC packs are very small ones right now, but this summer I might get a bigger copter. 

Yes charging from from the main battery input should work well. You can charge it first in non balanced mode. That's a standard connector you can get that easily even with leads to the banana for the charger. In fact that charger may come with the right connector. The mini B6 standardizes on the T connectors but supplies a good number of adapter leads; unfortunately not that one, but I have one on order I think with a bunch of other adapters. Can't remember all the different ones.


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 27, 2015)

StandardBattery said:


> Ya that AC one is quite big I thought about that, but the small size of the mini I liked as I have to many chargers already taking space. I was going to use an electronics bench supply for power, but in the end I got one of their efuel supplies thinking I could use it for a few things. I probably should have just gone with the regular B6, as all my RC packs are very small ones right now, but this summer I might get a bigger copter.
> 
> Yes charging from from the main battery input should work well. You can charge it first in non balanced mode. That's a standard connector you can get that easily even with leads to the banana for the charger. In fact that charger may come with the right connector. The mini B6 standardizes on the T connectors but supplies a good number of adapter leads; unfortunately not that one, but I have one on order I think with a bunch of other adapters. Can't remember all the different ones.



Hi,

If you're getting a big copter, the B6 Mini would be better as it has a more powerful output than the standard B6 does. I too have the problem of too many chargers taking up space hahaha.

Ok thanks for your advice. I will charge in non-balanced. The supplied leads won't work on their own. I'll probably need to stick the probes from my multi-meter into the output banana female sockets and then use the B6's alligator clips to clip onto the exposed portion of the probes.

As I type this, I might have gotten the battery to charge properly on its own using Whitedog1's method.

Check out my next post:


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 27, 2015)

Whitedog1 said:


> As i said above:
> Switch the unit "on" with the slider (but don't toucht the pushbutton - so no leds are on!!) and then connect the charger! Voila it charges to 12.5V!!



Hey what LED behavior do you see when the unit is fully charged? Do you see all 4 LEDs solid or a single LED blinking very fast?

Here's what happened. I charged it up the 'usual' way and after a few hours, all the LEDs went off and I had 1 remaining LED blinking very fast (seems to indicate an 'error'). I then disconnected everything and tried your method. To my delight, I then saw 3 solid LEDs with the final one blinking which indicates it's gone back into charging mode. A few hours later I see all 4 LEDs lit solid. I've never ever seen this before. I really wish I had my multimeter now because the voltage could very well be up to 12.5 or even higher now.

Feeling excited 

P.S. I've just realised the manual says that all 4 LEDs will stay lit once fully charged. I've never observed this happen until now. I'm using it to power my laptop this evening just to discharge it again, will let it charge overnight and hope to observe the same in the morning.


----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 27, 2015)

Oh good news, maybe I'll try that on my power all, I've still not got all lights solid on that one, but it charges to 12.55V.


----------



## happyguy82 (Jan 28, 2015)

StandardBattery said:


> Oh good news, maybe I'll try that on my power all, I've still not got all lights solid on that one, but it charges to 12.55V.



Ahh it lasted for just under 2 hours powering my work laptop at 19v. Once again, this is a low power Core i3; however I had an external Blu-Ray drive connected and was watching a movie (presumably Blu-Ray decoding consumes high CPU power).

When I get back this weekend, I'll run the discharge program on the B6 to see how many mAh it has.


----------



## SemiMan (Jan 28, 2015)

happyguy82 said:


> Ahh it lasted for just under 2 hours powering my work laptop at 19v. Once again, this is a low power Core i3; however I had an external Blu-Ray drive connected and was watching a movie (presumably Blu-Ray decoding consumes high CPU power).
> 
> When I get back this weekend, I'll run the discharge program on the B6 to see how many mAh it has.



Bigger variable is how big is your screen and how bright was it?


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## happyguy82 (Jan 28, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> Bigger variable is how big is your screen and how bright was it?



ohh well as I pointed out this is a cheap useless laptop hahahaha, therefore it can only be 15 inches (as that's the cheapest form factor) and the brightness is MAX (because again the backlighting is so useless it's hardly bright).


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## SemiMan (Jan 29, 2015)

Which explains high power draw


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## happyguy82 (Jan 29, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> Which explains high power draw



Yes however the main reason behind the high power draw is the inverter stepping up 12v to 19v to power the laptop. These things aren't efficient at doing so.


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## Gauss163 (Jan 29, 2015)

happyguy82 said:


> Yes however the main reason behind the high power draw is the inverter stepping up 12v to 19v to power the laptop. These things aren't efficient at doing so.


 
Often you can avoid the conversion loss since many laptops run fine on 12V DC, e.g. this is true for all of my 19V Dell's. But they will slow down the CPU etc, which you can control if you know how to get in the secret BIOS menu (Fn+Sh 1 3 5 2 4 on my Dells, which also allows fan speed control, etc)


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## happyguy82 (Jan 29, 2015)

Gauss163 said:


> Often you can avoid the conversion loss since many laptops run fine on 12V DC, e.g. this is true for all of my 19V Dell's. But they will slow down the CPU etc, which you can control if you know how to get in the secret BIOS menu (Fn+Sh 1 3 5 2 4 on my Dells, which also allows fan speed control, etc)



Wow I'm keen to see what that does on the BIOS. Mine doesn't use the standard bios that most Dell machines use though. Mine's the old ASCII design type. I can't remember the brand though. Will give this a go. Cheers.


Sent from my iGoldBar using Candlepowerforums


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## SemiMan (Jan 29, 2015)

DC to AC can be 90% efficient .. Or more especially non sinewave. Ac-dc is likely 90ish.


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## happyguy82 (Jan 30, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> DC to AC can be 90% efficient .. Or more especially non sinewave. Ac-dc is likely 90ish.



Yeah but this is DC to DC though.


Sent from my iGoldBar using Candlepowerforums


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## happyguy82 (Jan 30, 2015)

Hello all,

After charging the powerbank properly with Whitedog1's method, the battery now measures at 12.4v which sounds right for a 3S1P Li-Po pack.


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## happyguy82 (Feb 2, 2015)

StandardBattery said:


> Ya that AC one is quite big I thought about that, but the small size of the mini I liked as I have to many chargers already taking space. I was going to use an electronics bench supply for power, but in the end I got one of their efuel supplies thinking I could use it for a few things. I probably should have just gone with the regular B6, as all my RC packs are very small ones right now, but this summer I might get a bigger copter.
> 
> Yes charging from from the main battery input should work well. You can charge it first in non balanced mode. That's a standard connector you can get that easily even with leads to the banana for the charger. In fact that charger may come with the right connector. The mini B6 standardizes on the T connectors but supplies a good number of adapter leads; unfortunately not that one, but I have one on order I think with a bunch of other adapters. Can't remember all the different ones.



Hi, I didn't realise that there are counterfeit IMax B6 chargers. I've returned mine for a full Refund and purchased the IMax B6 mini that's from SkyRC. This is the original one. Yeah I'm wasting money on something I don't really need, but I reckon it'll be good for measuring the capacity of my old LiFePO4 cells for my SureFire. The counterfeit IMax B6 was scary. The LiPo discharge program takes them down to 3v with no way of telling it to stop at 3.2v or so.


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## Gauss163 (Feb 2, 2015)

happyguy82 said:


> Hi, I didn't realise that there are counterfeit IMax B6 chargers. The LiPo discharge program takes them down to 3v with no way of telling it to stop at 3.2v or so.



There are plenty of Imax B6 clones. They usually have exactly the same functionality as the genuine B6. In particular, I don't recall any (clone or genuine) B6 that permits control of the termination voltage for discharge. The hardwired 3.0V/cell termination is not a problem (many cells can go down to 2.8V or 2.5V according to datasheets).


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## Mark620 (Feb 2, 2015)

I highly doubt one of these would start my Ford F350 Diesel powerstroke in the winter...when warm outside yees...
It does not like to [email protected]<30F


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## happyguy82 (Feb 3, 2015)

Gauss163 said:


> There are plenty of Imax B6 clones. They usually have exactly the same functionality as the genuine B6. In particular, I don't recall any (clone or genuine) B6 that permits control of the termination voltage for discharge. The hardwired 3.0V/cell termination is not a problem (many cells can go down to 2.8V or 2.5V according to datasheets).



Hi,

Thanks for the assurance of 3.0V being safe. There is a way to control the termination voltage, that is to use the Nickel program to discharge the cells instead of Lithium. This is because the system allows the low end voltage to be set to a specific value. Of course this won't work through the balance connector.


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## Gauss163 (Feb 3, 2015)

Yes, there are kludges to partly workaround the fixed discharge termination voltage by using programs for other chemistries (and that can be done in B6 clones too - they do not differ in that respect). But that workaround only yields a few fixed choices, vs. a variable parameter provided by more featureful chargers (e.g. iChargers).


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## happyguy82 (Feb 3, 2015)

Gauss163 said:


> Yes, there are kludges to partly workaround the fixed discharge termination voltage by using programs for other chemistries (and that can be done in B6 clones too - they do not differ in that respect). But that workaround only yields a few fixed choices, vs. a variable parameter provided by more featureful chargers (e.g. iChargers).



Ahh yeah totally agree.


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## happyguy82 (Feb 14, 2015)

Hi everyone,

I've run the 3S1P LiPo battery through the discharge program on the iMAX B6 Mini. The product's quoted capacity was 38,000mAh. From my calculations, the total discharge was only < 2,500mAh. Ohh well I guess none of this matters as the high discharge rate will still help to jump start any car.


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## mellowman (May 18, 2015)

I think it would be helpful to list a voltage anytime someone mentions mAh. Also the DC output port is limited to 60w (19v @ 3.5A) output so keep that in mind when using to power laptops.

The mAh ratings on these are getting beyond ridiculous as I now see 50800mAh ratings on the same size units with same features. I'm assuming that mAh is supposed to be at the battery nominal voltage of 3.2v?

I do see some rate for gasoline only and some rated for diesel and gasoline so from reading this thread this is probably the difference between 3 cell and 4 cell versions?


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## happyguy82 (May 18, 2015)

mellowman said:


> I think it would be helpful to list a voltage anytime someone mentions mAh. Also the DC output port is limited to 60w (19v @ 3.5A) output so keep that in mind when using to power laptops.
> 
> The mAh ratings on these are getting beyond ridiculous as I now see 50800mAh ratings on the same size units with same features. I'm assuming that mAh is supposed to be at the battery nominal voltage of 3.2v?
> 
> I do see some rate for gasoline only and some rated for diesel and gasoline so from reading this thread this is probably the difference between 3 cell and 4 cell versions?



The battery's nominal voltage is 3.2 x No. of cells. Regardless of what the nominal voltage is, the capacity won't change because it's measured in mAh. i.e. stacking 3 x 3.2v cells at 2000 mAh would simply give you 9.6v at 2000 mAh.

Ability to start diesels and larger engines depends on the chemistry and C rating of the cells rather than the voltage. If you had a fully charged 3 cell pack with a very high C rating, you could start any 12V vehicle.


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## mellowman (May 18, 2015)

happyguy82 said:


> The battery's nominal voltage is 3.2 x No. of cells. Regardless of what the nominal voltage is, the capacity won't change because it's measured in mAh. i.e. stacking 3 x 3.2v cells at 2000 mAh would simply give you 9.6v at 2000 mAh.
> 
> Ability to start diesels and larger engines depends on the chemistry and C rating of the cells rather than the voltage. If you had a fully charged 3 cell pack with a very high C rating, you could start any 12V vehicle.



Frequently I see a mAh rating with no voltage implied. Sometimes a Wh rating is also listed and the vendors derive this my multiplying the mAh times the nominal voltage of a single cell. mAh itself is not a capacity rating unless you are holding other things constant such as chemistry and number of cells and you know what these are. mAh or Ah is not a capacity rating as it only tells you 1/2 the story. In your example, to me you argued you held the capacity the same but to me you didn't you added 3x the capacity to raise the voltage 3x. This also is important in any discharge capacity test. Saying 2500 mAh discharge capacity doesn't tell me anything because if that was measured at load with 3.2v would be one thing but if it was at 9.2v or 12v would be something else.

Regarding the engine starts, I hear what you are saying but we are talking about these power banks in this thread which is limited to the same cell type and my question related to earlier discussion about 3 vs 4 cell speculation and perhaps a way to discern why venders are differentiating some of these power banks. Same vender will list one as gasoline only with start current of 200 Amp and 400 peak Amp while a diesel version has 300 Amp and peak 600 Amp.


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## happyguy82 (May 18, 2015)

mellowman said:


> Frequently I see a mAh rating with no voltage implied. Sometimes a Wh rating is also listed and the vendors derive this my multiplying the mAh times the nominal voltage of a single cell. mAh itself is not a capacity rating unless you are holding other things constant such as chemistry and number of cells and you know what these are. mAh or Ah is not a capacity rating as it only tells you 1/2 the story. In your example, to me you argued you held the capacity the same but to me you didn't you added 3x the capacity to raise the voltage 3x. This also is important in any discharge capacity test. Saying 2500 mAh discharge capacity doesn't tell me anything because if that was measured at load with 3.2v would be one thing but if it was at 9.2v or 12v would be something else.
> 
> Regarding the engine starts, I hear what you are saying but we are talking about these power banks in this thread which is limited to the same cell type and my question related to earlier discussion about 3 vs 4 cell speculation and perhaps a way to discern why venders are differentiating some of these power banks. Same vender will list one as gasoline only with start current of 200 Amp and 400 peak Amp while a diesel version has 300 Amp and peak 600 Amp.



Hello,

Yes I understand what you're saying that capacity is a product of mAh x voltage. I just didn't want to go into that level of detail. These Chinese sellers could be listing that capacity at the 5v USB output, which is pretty much pointless. In any case, I doubt they understand these things and know what they're saying so it doesn't really matter. I've done discharge test graph plots on my so called 18,000 mAh battery and can say for certain they hold less than 3,500 mAh.

I've worked out that it takes just < 200 mAh of energy at 12v to start an average petrol car. Assuming you're cranking for under 4 secs and drawing 400Amps. When I started this thread I thought they all used LiFePO4 batteries which have quite a high discharge rate, but it turns out many of them actually use LiPo which is even better for starting. Mine has 3 cells in series so when fully charged it reaches 13.x V. The built in charger cuts off at 12.5v so I normally push it higher by hard wiring the output to my bench charger.


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## gefr (Sep 17, 2015)

Hello there,
I am trying to post a question to StandardBaterry on his investigation on an antigravity jump starter.
Cheers


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## gefr (Sep 17, 2015)

*Re: 13.4 volts off the charger*



StandardBattery said:


> +1 my AllPower seems to be this way, and I just tested my new Micro-Start XP-3 and it's measuring 12.53 volts, but there was no number on the battery.



So Antigravity is not LiFePo4 as stated, but is a reliable mobile jumpstarter??
I own an XP1 and am very satisfied with its performance. I wonder if the Chinese similar can live up to the expectations.
Cheers


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