# Anyone else think Maglite are missing some obvious tricks?



## Chicken Drumstick (Dec 23, 2014)

I know that there many that like and don't like Maglites on here. I also know Maglite has pretty much no internet presence anywhere, which is part of the point I'm making.

Like many, my interest in torches and flashlights hails from owning Minimags and full size Maglites (for me starting in the 1980's...)

But does anyone else fear that Maglite are a dwindling company?

Not living in the USA I don't know how they are still viewed by the general public. Here in the UK I can tell you, it's now rather difficult to walk into a high street style shop and buy a Maglite. Brick & Mortar style shops or supermarkets, places average Jo would go to when looking for a new torch, none of these seem to sell or stock Maglites on the shelf.

Some specialist places do sell them, but it's still 80-90% their incan range. And the LED ones you do find are old models and hugely expensive. The truth is, in the UK unless you decide before shopping that you want a Maglite and go to an effort to find them for sale, you'll end up buying something else.

High street stores are littered with cheap nasty 9 LED/3xAAA generic rubbish. And specialist online flashlight sellers that are UK based often skip over Maglite completely.

History proves that companies that refuse to move with the times just end up disappearing. If you are UK based, Blockbuster, Clinton Cards, Woolworths and many more. Companies that once where at the top of their markets, but failed to recognise change and adapt.

I do accept Maglite have and are making new products or upgrades. But are they right ones? Are they enough?


After some thought I think there are a few problem areas:


1. The Maglite website - it's dreadful. It really wants a whole redesign so that you can see the current products better and be kept up to date. This should be a quick and cost affective easy fix.


2. Maglites continued insistence to pursue alkaline only power sources and actively discourage even using NiMh. You can't walk into a toy store these days without almost all the toys requiring batteries these days, and houses are full of electronic gadgets and goodies -- the reality of all this is, the average man or women on the street is very likely to own and use rechargeable batteries and use other battery types.

Everyone on here and on every other torch forum knows alkaline batteries are rubbish for use in a flashlight. Poor performance, poor runtime and prone to leaking making them unreliable.

For the mass market products, sure have alkaline compatibility. But Maglite could really be helping to educate the public by promoting and encouraging the use of lithium primaries and NiMh. They could even sell combo packs off the back of this.


3. Ignoring the rest of the market.

Looking on here and other torch forums & websites and what other companies offer. It's easy to see the trend in current flashlight tastes:

-compact 1xAAA
-compact 1xAA
-compact 18650/CR123a
-pocket friendly large headed 18650
-multi 18650 with very high output/range


If you look at the current Maglite range, they pretty much miss all of these popular trends. The LED Solitaire is really the only thing they offer, and while I have no issues with it, they only offer one version and one output with no modes. Something the rest of the wider proper flashlight industry doesn't.

Multi D or C cell, even double AA just isn't the main trend.


4. The range or missing models. I'm staggered that nobody at Maglite has been able to produce some simple additional models to their line, such as:

-1xAA Solitaire. Externally the same as the AAA one, but scaled up. Twisty and multimode. Simple UI H-L repeat twice to get to SOS/Blinky (like an EagleTac D series, just less total modes). It wouldn't even need 14500 support, just regulation designed to work on NiMh with flat regulation. Alkaline would still work in it.

-2xAAA Solitaire penlite. With a clicky switch.

-18650 XL200 at sensible money. With proper flat regulation. Do a "thrower" version with a SMO reflector and XP-E2 and a "flooder" version with a textured reflector and an XP-L.

-18650 XL200 body with a C cell Maglite head!!!!


I think such models would be easy to R&D and in many cases reuse parts/design they already have. But would massively bolster a flagging range.



Merry Christmas.


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## thinkFlashlights01 (Dec 23, 2014)

I also believe that Maglite is a slowly disappearing company.


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 23, 2014)

I totally agree with this, though there are a few things such as a few stores around here do carry Maglites. It is hard to find some mods and accessories the only place i have found to have some was at the Bass Pro shop here. Been waiting for stores to carry the ML300L and ML300LX but i have yet to find either. They need a better marketing strategy. I don't like that they are wanting people to stick to alkaleaks. I agree, they could be teaching people about rechargeables and their benefits.


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## Treeguy (Dec 23, 2014)

What Maglite is missing... is Maglites.

I've got the money and the willingness to part with it but there is no Maglite to buy. Home Depot, Amazon, Canadian Tire, etc, nothing. At least nothing new.

Oh well.


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## idleprocess (Dec 23, 2014)

An issue that maglite faces outside the US is regulation - be it tariffs or other red tape - that makes their product expensive or at least rare.

Maglite has also indeed been slow to innovate - largely because they have depended on familiarity to market, but also because of their commitment to recouping fixed investments in automation. Maglite seems to have been forced into R&D mode by the market, but has no interest in developing product families with 6-18 month lifespans.

Eventually, as maglite loses market share and retail shelf space to faster-moving competitors, they will adapt or die. At least they have produced some fundamentally new designs in the past few years rather than just LED versions of their classic lineup.

Edit: Li-ion cells just aren't mainstream products yet, so it should come as no surprise that maglite and other big manufacturers don't support them. As for their insistence on alkaline ... who knows.


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## nfetterly (Dec 23, 2014)

They are good however at Lawsuits - they threatened Mac with lawsuit as he was modding [email protected] - what Maglite doesn't realize is there are 4 maglites in my house, 2 modded by JayRob (does great job with voltage monitor, XML2 & MTG2), one with a Malkoff drop-in and one with a Mac drop-in. So four lights sold that would not have sold otherwise.


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## smokinbasser (Dec 23, 2014)

No! They offer a sturdy flashlight for the totally non enlightened. All they care is that it looks like a good light and it has been on the market long enough that every mom and pop store carries them and they generally use easily acquired batteries. Many sheeple can't imagine paying over say 10 bucks for a flashlight and absolutely not batteries that cost more than a [email protected]


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## 5S8Zh5 (Dec 23, 2014)

I was looking for service on my 3 D cell incandescent MagLite and emailed a couple nearby from the long list of US service centers. Both inquiries were answered with prices and an invitation to send'm on in. So they are still getting support, it seems. I'm going to get a new button installed and then eventually get a Malkoff drop in. This is a very old model, maybe from the 1970s or early 80s. Found a spare bulb wrapped in foam under the tailcap spring.



_


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## mcnair55 (Dec 23, 2014)

The best way is to find out what the last recorded accounts look like ie turnover and profit.I imagine they are still a heavyweight seller worldwide and like Led Lenser they dominate the retail market.

I have no idea why the op thinks it is difficult to buy a Maglite in the UK as it is dead easy.All you do is go to where you would think you would get a decent torch and the two brands on offer will be Maglite and Led Lenser.

I think personally Fenix are gearing up for a move into retail sales rather than the very minute and restrictive hobby market.


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## Ruislip (Dec 23, 2014)

I have a 2x aa original maglite. With an LED upgrade and a niteize tail clicky it is quite a decent light and can use nimh or alks. I use it to get the last breath out of old alks.


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## guthrie (Dec 23, 2014)

I agree with you in general re. Maglite, but the crack about alkaline cells is just wrong. My first and most used (now 4.5 years old) flashaholics type torch is a 4sevens Quark mini AA, and there are now quite a few powerful AA alkaline powered torches out there. And which is better, having a battery leak or having it explode? 

I disagree with Mcnair55, I'm seeing more LED Lenser torches in the shops than maglites.


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## NoNotAgain (Dec 23, 2014)

Brick and mortar stores want product that catches the eye and sells quick. Bright colors packaged with batteries is what sells fast. 

The el cheapo Chinese 9 led lights have taken a large piece of Mag's sales. 

Mag's slow to adopt stance on led lighting hurt them as well as a lot of police agencies no longer allowing the 4-6 cells to be used. You might beat someone over the head with that Eugene. 

John home owner is a point purchase buyer. If its sitting on the end of the aisle it sells. The problem is that in the USA, the big box stores have their house branded lights that compete with Mag's sales. 

There will always be people that wax nostalgically about the old Mag lights. 

Today it's lead, follow or get out of the way. Mag it appears is getting out of the way.


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## Ruislip (Dec 23, 2014)

I bought my daughter the led solitaire to replace the old incan solitaire she always carried. My daughter is not light-savvy and thinks it is fine. So a more considered response mybe that Maglite is not pitching its products well. Its lights are not good enough to attract flashaholics, but a bit too complicated for the unenlightened. A simple led light with a strong body that can rattle around in a handbag or rucsac may suit a commuter [say] very well?


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## maglite mike (Dec 23, 2014)

The maglite website was completely revamped a few weeks ago. It looks great. Maybe it's a different site in the UK?


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## ForrestChump (Dec 24, 2014)

I think its the opposite. ( In the USA anyway )

All the other flashlight companies are missing the tricks.

In 99.9% of brick & mortar and online retail stores that carry flashlights. ( NO other company even comes close. )

Stop a stranger on the street and ask them if they know what a Maglite is, now ask them if they know what a X brand is. Yes / No

That said, I love em, but don't own a single one.


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## mcnair55 (Dec 24, 2014)

guthrie said:


> I agree with you in general re. Maglite, but the crack about alkaline cells is just wrong. My first and most used (now 4.5 years old) flashaholics type torch is a 4sevens Quark mini AA, and there are now quite a few powerful AA alkaline powered torches out there. And which is better, having a battery leak or having it explode?
> 
> I disagree with Mcnair55, I'm seeing more LED Lenser torches in the shops than maglites.



You can disagree all you want Maglite are easy to find in the UK.Outdoor shops * Gun Shops*Holiday resort shops*Screwfix carry Maglite.Tool vans*garages*trade centres*DIY shops such as B&Q all stock Maglite. Halfords*Maplins carry Maglite.

I wager with you more stock Maglite. than Led Lenser.


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 24, 2014)

ForrestChump said:


> I think its the opposite. ( In the USA anyway )
> 
> All the other flashlight companies are missing the tricks.
> 
> ...




That actually makes sense, Maglite is competing more with common flashlights bought in hardware stores. Before visiting this forum i thought Maglite was one of the best light brands out there. Amazingly i've been proven wrong and Maglites are more on the mid ground compared to real high end lights. Then again, i have seen many people buy cheap plastic $5 lights. They are great if you are looking to give someone a cheap Christmas present or for an emergency and you don't want to spend a whole lot on a light you know little about.


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## thinkFlashlights01 (Dec 24, 2014)

We have an Ace Hardware that is filled with Maglites in the flashlight section. So Maglite does have some appearances sometimes! :twothumbs:


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## ForrestChump (Dec 25, 2014)

You just can't not notice them, there're everywhere. I understand what OP was getting at though. Here in the states, most* people are content with incandescent Maglites, But now you see people starting to buy the LED Mags. They sell them alongside the incandescent, for the average buyer the price jump is a mental block. They don't wan't to spend $25 for a 2 X AA light when they are used to spending $12.00 for ones that have worked fine for them and they are familiar with. If Mag jumped the horse, they would have had massive sales losses.


Theres a high school experiment I saw when I was a kid that changed my whole perspective on life. He had a regular Goldfish _in salt water....

_Every day, he would drop a grain of salt into the tank, over months the fish slowly adapted to its new habitat and was able to thrive as a new, salt water fish.
This is fascinating and it's the same approach Mag is taking. If you just take a goldfish and throw it in the ocean he won't survive because he can't keep up with the sudden shock of his new environment, he hasn't been given a chance to adapt....This principle is applied in society in many different ways. Unfortunately they are often used to undermine & manipulate people and usually have a negative impact.


Maglites and Goldfish however are doing just fine.... Mag knows whats up, and they are playing their hand PERFECTLY. Kudos to them.


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## Treeguy (Dec 26, 2014)

Just saw an updated page from a big Montreal hunting/fishing equipment store and they are listing the new Maglites. 

The 2 D cell (525 lumen) for $52 and the 3 D cell (625 lumen) for $54. And the rechargeable 533 lumen Mag-Tac for $120. Pretty good prices on those D cell models. I'm liking it!
_
Edit: And $155 for the rechargeable 643 lumen full sized flashlight._


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## mcnair55 (Dec 26, 2014)

ForrestChump said:


> You just can't not notice them, there're everywhere. I understand what OP was getting at though. Here in the states, most* people are content with incandescent Maglites, But now you see people starting to buy the LED Mags. They sell them alongside the incandescent, for the average buyer the price jump is a mental block. They don't wan't to spend $25 for a 2 X AA light when they are used to spending $12.00 for ones that have worked fine for them and they are familiar with. If Mag jumped the horse, they would have had massive sales losses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I totally disagree with your conjecture on how Mag are conducting there business.They are nothing more than an arrogant company who rely on Joe Punter who has no idea what Led even is.They are way behind the competition and you need the issued accounts to see how well they really are doing.Conjecture is just that a guess.:shakehead


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## ForrestChump (Dec 26, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> *I totally disagree with your conjecture* on how Mag are conducting there business.They are nothing more than an arrogant company who rely on Joe Punter who has no idea what Led even is.They are way behind the competition and you need the issued accounts to see how well they really are doing.Conjecture is just that a guess.:shakehead




Thats OK.


It is what they are doing. Im not talking about the confines of our niche, they are a flashlight company for the masses. They produce a product that is often superior than what Joe blow has in his junk drawer and they do it at a low cost because this is what the *market* chooses. They took their time because that was the *fiscally* correct thing to do. People need to acclimate. If you visit there website now its lightyears better than it has been and focuses more on the LED side of things.



This all might be completely different across the pond but in the USA, if you say flashlight, regular folk say Maglight.


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## Grijon (Dec 26, 2014)

ForrestChump, I like you; I agree with much of what you say (across the boards, not just in this thread) and you sure know how to handle people (even if one or more of the mods don't agree, LOL).

On topic, I think ForrestChump is closer to what's actually going on than a lot of flasholics give Maglight credit for. They are not an enthusiast brand; it is a brand for "the people" - offering great value for the general public.

For a flashaholic to beat on Maglight for being "behind the times" or "arrogant" is like making fun of Toyota for making Corollas and Camrys instead of six-figure supercars.


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## ForrestChump (Dec 26, 2014)

Grijon said:


> ForrestChump, I like you; I agree with much of what you say (across the boards, not just in this thread) and you sure know how to handle people (even if one or more of the mods don't agree, LOL).
> 
> On topic, I think ForrestChump is closer to what's actually going on than a lot of flasholics give Maglight credit for. They are not an enthusiast brand; it is a brand for "the people" - offering great value for the general public.
> 
> For a flashaholic to beat on Maglight for being "behind the times" or "arrogant" is like making fun of Toyota for making Corollas and Camrys instead of six-figure supercars.




Hey Man, Thanks for the morale support. Don't know whats up with that, but have contacted the Mod(s) and am awaiting a response. 

On topic: You are spot on. I think as flashaolics we forget that these are _businesses, _most who have 0 interest in us as we are aren't even a blip on the map to companies like Maglite... 

Your analogy is good as well. It's like asking Surefire to make ambient lighting for figure skating competitions..... Thats not their market.

Debate is good though and I always try and respectfully welcome it.


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## maglite mike (Dec 26, 2014)

....Or how about the comparison of a Glock vs an HK or a custom 1911. Glock aren't the prettiest but they are cheap, durable and easy to maintain and operate. Similar to Maglite.


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## mcnair55 (Dec 27, 2014)

Grijon said:


> ForrestChump, I like you; I agree with much of what you say (across the boards, not just in this thread) and you sure know how to handle people (even if one or more of the mods don't agree, LOL).
> 
> On topic, I think ForrestChump is closer to what's actually going on than a lot of flasholics give Maglight credit for. They are not an enthusiast brand; it is a brand for "the people" - offering great value for the general public.
> 
> ...



Mr Grijon,

You are missing the point a little but I suppose it depends on your age. Mag was the first decent torch many of us ever owned and mine was bought in the early 80,s in Blackpool Air Gun Centre UK and thrown out as rubbish in error in Berlin Germany in 2005.To see Mag behave so arrogantly hurts many enthusiasts. Mag were producing there usual range of lights but the rest of the world were moving forward.This brand for the people is nonsense as well because many many were producing Led cheaper than Mag wanted for there range of poor lights.

There is no getting away from it they are lagging behind big style and are in real danger of Led Lenser pushing them further back.I have said this before and say it again I feel Fenix are gearing up for a serious attack on the retail market and that will spell disaster for a stubborn old company.


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## 5S8Zh5 (Dec 27, 2014)

ForrestChump said:


> You just can't not notice them, there're everywhere...



Even the movies - jayrob's LED MagLite in Night at the Museum 3.


_


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## Treeguy (Dec 27, 2014)

ForrestChump said:


> On topic: You are spot on. I think as flashaolics we forget that these are _businesses, _most who have 0 interest in us as we are aren't even a blip on the map to companies like Maglite...
> 
> Your analogy is good as well. It's like asking Surefire to make ambient lighting for figure skating competitions..... Thats not their market.



Yep. Most of my buddies are workers who use tools every day and if I started on about 18650s and CR123s and Quarks and Olights and the like, they'd think I just came from Mars. The only funky or rechargeable batteries they know about go on the butt end of their Makitas and Dewalts.

And here's the kicker about "the fancy stuff" - the majority aren't/wouldn't be interested. They don't know and they don't care if they don't know. But mention a D cell Maglite and they'd know right away what I was talking about.

Maglite is glacial in how it moves, but they have brand recognition up the wazoo. Joe Lunchbox will recognize it on the shelf right away and think it's a good quality light. That's worth a ton of money.


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## turbodog (Dec 27, 2014)

If you look long term I see a completely different problem w/ mag that nobody's talking about.

Emitters keep getting better. No real argument there. But eventually leds get too bright. Eventually, handheld lights will only get to a certain level and people won't actually want anything brighter. Yes, search and rescue will always want million lumen throwers, but most people will not want lights past a certain level.

Stay with me on this one for a minute... I say this because to me it's obvious (in theory). I say this because to me it's obvious (in practice) also. I confirmed this when I got a four seven's maelstrom x3, a 1600 lumen light. The darn thing's too bright. It's a liability. It's useful on the farm when you need to find a lost cow, but for tasks it's totally impractical.

Now moving back to mag... Eventually all lights, even the cheapest chinese ones, will be plenty bright with hours of runtime. Think a 1aaa keychain light with 500 lumens and 6 hours runtime (with good tint also).

Now compare that to mag... and their insistence on using a very large (c/d cell) form factor. All things equal, people are going to go with the smaller lighter product.

They need to gear up in the 1aaa and 1aa segment.


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## Treeguy (Dec 27, 2014)

The new big Maglites really present functional devices for most people. They are big hefty lights, and a lot of people want that for reasons best not discussed here, and they offer working and "defensive" lighting options. 

Joe Lunchbox is going to love these new lights. Good car light. Perfect pickup truck light.


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## Treeguy (Dec 27, 2014)

The majority, or at the very least a large plurality, of guys like this are going to want a full sized Maglite - or a Maglite period - in their truck, not something working off AAAs or funky lithium recharables. About 2,000,000 pickup trucks are sold every year in the US, not to mention what's already on the road. Maglite has a target audience.


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## thedoc007 (Dec 27, 2014)

turbodog said:


> But eventually leds get too bright. Eventually, handheld lights will only get to a certain level and people won't actually want anything brighter. Yes, search and rescue will always want million lumen throwers, but most people will not want lights past a certain level.
> 
> Stay with me on this one for a minute... I say this because to me it's obvious (in theory). I say this because to me it's obvious (in practice) also. I confirmed this when I got a four seven's maelstrom x3, a 1600 lumen light. The darn thing's too bright. It's a liability. It's useful on the farm when you need to find a lost cow, but for tasks it's totally impractical.



That to me is an argument for multiple well-spaced modes, not for lowering max brightness. You CAN have it both ways...the MMU-X3 simply doesn't have the design that makes it good for everyday tasks. That doesn't in any way imply it is too bright.


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## Grijon (Dec 27, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Mr Grijon,
> 
> You are missing the point a little but I suppose it depends on your age. Mag was the first decent torch many of us ever owned and mine was bought in the early 80,s in Blackpool Air Gun Centre UK and thrown out as rubbish in error in Berlin Germany in 2005.To see Mag behave so arrogantly hurts many enthusiasts. Mag were producing there usual range of lights but the rest of the world were moving forward.This brand for the people is nonsense as well because many many were producing Led cheaper than Mag wanted for there range of poor lights.
> 
> There is no getting away from it they are lagging behind big style and are in real danger of Led Lenser pushing them further back.I have said this before and say it again I feel Fenix are gearing up for a serious attack on the retail market and that will spell disaster for a stubborn old company.



Mr. McNair,

I believe that I understand where you're coming from; you feel let down (even betrayed, perhaps) by a (or THE) company that started you on your journey of flashaholism - and that is a powerful feeling, indeed. You are also correct in guessing my age; I wasn't born until after you had your first Maglite.

I think it is a mistake, however, to chalk up the company's actions to "arrogance". ForrestChump makes excellent points about the business strategy that they're displaying - who are we to say how or why they chose to take that route? It *could* be "arrogance" - it could also be incompetence, ignorance, or an actual lack of ability to change for any of a dozen reasons. IT COULD ALSO be marketing knowledge, intelligent strategy, action based on an in-depth study of the worldwide/developed nations/North American market(s), or sheer business saavy based on projected return on the investment of 'innovating'.
We just don't know.

Here in the US (I don't know the situation in the UK) there is no other brand of flashlight sold in EVERY town. There is no other brand of flashlight that EVERY person on the street knows. There is no other flashlight brand known to the public with a 30+ year reputation for reliability. In the US there is certainly no other brand available anywhere for any price with the general public's combined IMAGE and RECOGNITION of Maglite. I don't believe any US flashaholic would disagree with the preceding sentence, regardless of their personal opinion of the company and its products.

Time will tell what will happen to Maglite, but I believe that they have an enormous amount of 'market momentum' that they can just roll with for quite some time to come.

These are just my thoughts on the topic; we're in a forum to share ideas, experiences and have discussion - thanks for adding to that.


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## Grijon (Dec 27, 2014)

I would like to add my personal opinion on Maglite:
I don't know the company but have heard that they are not very nice (sue-happy). I know that their web presence up to 2 months ago was a complete joke/letdown - I haven't been back since getting into Fenix (WOOT FENIX!!!)
I love and will always love their classic/updated lineup: The AA MiniMag and the C- and D-cell Maglites, regardless of bulbs/emitters, lumens or runtimes. They are what got me into flashlights (nostalgia), they will always have their own niches, and I still think that they are top-of-the-line for NON-enthusiasts. For a non-flashaholic asking for a Walmart recommendation: I'm all Maglite!

Right for me and my money -whether for myself, my wife or my friends-: I'm all Fenix!

Perhaps in a few years I'll have the disposable income to play with Surefires, 'the Porsche/Land Rover of the flashlight world'; in the meantime, I might pick up more Maglites for fun, nostalgia and/or modding (which I haven't gotten into yet but feel it coming...LOL).


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## mcnair55 (Dec 27, 2014)

Grijon said:


> Mr. McNair,
> 
> I believe that I understand where you're coming from; you feel let down (even betrayed, perhaps) by a (or THE) company that started you on your journey of flashaholism - and that is a powerful feeling, indeed. You are also correct in guessing my age; I wasn't born until after you had your first Maglite.
> 
> ...



Correct young man I do feel let down by Mag Lite and I do believe they are arrogant just like our very own Tesco the worlds 5th largest retailer and now the basket case and the laughing stock of UK retail.



Grijon said:


> I would like to add my personal opinion on Maglite:
> I don't know the company but have heard that they are not very nice (sue-happy). I know that their web presence up to 2 months ago was a complete joke/letdown - I haven't been back since getting into Fenix (WOOT FENIX!!!)
> I love and will always love their classic/updated lineup: The AA MiniMag and the C- and D-cell Maglites, regardless of bulbs/emitters, lumens or runtimes. They are what got me into flashlights (nostalgia), they will always have their own niches, and I still think that they are top-of-the-line for NON-enthusiasts. For a non-flashaholic asking for a Walmart recommendation: I'm all Maglite!
> 
> ...



I am a massive Fenix fan and buy them more often than any other light.


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## 18650 (Dec 27, 2014)

turbodog said:


> If you look long term I see a completely different problem w/ mag that nobody's talking about. Emitters keep getting better. No real argument there. But eventually leds get too bright. Eventually, handheld lights will only get to a certain level and people won't actually want anything brighter. Yes, search and rescue will always want million lumen throwers, but most people will not want lights past a certain level. Stay with me on this one for a minute... I say this because to me it's obvious (in theory). I say this because to me it's obvious (in practice) also. I confirmed this when I got a four seven's maelstrom x3, a 1600 lumen light. The darn thing's too bright. It's a liability. It's useful on the farm when you need to find a lost cow, but for tasks it's totally impractical. Now moving back to mag... Eventually all lights, even the cheapest chinese ones, will be plenty bright with hours of runtime. Think a 1aaa keychain light with 500 lumens and 6 hours runtime (with good tint also). Now compare that to mag... and their insistence on using a very large (c/d cell) form factor. All things equal, people are going to go with the smaller lighter product. They need to gear up in the 1aaa and 1aa segment.


 We are far from a mature product market as you describe. There's still much to do in terms of efficiency (for longer life) and tint/CRI (for more pleasing looking light). I'll believe we're there when I see flashlights in the lighting aisle separated in 2700K/4000K/5000K/6500K piles like we do with light bulbs.


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## Lynx_Arc (Dec 27, 2014)

I think Mag's problem is they had the market wrapped up long ago... got to thinking like a monopoly till LEDs rattled their cage and they adjusted to it but set their research cycle too slow to keep up with emitter and driver circuit design technology and instead of leading the market they were following the trends. One could say Mag played too much defense and got run over in time by a cheaper flood of lights from makers willing to manage profit and technology in real time to flood the market with ever growing better and cheaper light choices such that instead of stores using Mags multiple combinations of colors and cell type lights to pad their shelves they have many other manufacturers willing to give them deals to buy their products enough to sell that Mag products are no longer "needed". To end my point I will reuse the word "needed" in that at one time and place we sort of needed Mag to keep the market going kind of like having a slow but powerful running back to keep plodding up the field 3.5 yards a carry. This notion won for decades till the other opponents went to the passing game and taught their players how to take advantage of Mags fumbles. You can go to most stores now 10 years ago we had incan mags covering over half the pegs in stores, 5 years ago LED and incan mags covering close to half the pegs in stores and now maybe 1-2 pegs for the D cell latest LED mag and 1-2 pegs for the LED 2AA Mag and maybe if you look around a peg of the solitaire or 2AAA LED mag. No more color choices of LED mags on pegs instead we have Coleman, Rayovac, and other new brand names that didn't exist 10 years ago sporting interesting options.
One could say the car industry in the US that was once only a few American brands got run over like Mag did.. complacency.


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 27, 2014)

The thing that irks me with Mag is they still are trying to accommodate those with using alkaleaks. IMO the reputation with Mag is slipping with them mainly sticking with alkaleaks when even their flashlights work well with LSD NiMHs and possibly li-ons. As i light enthusiast i don't trust alkaleak batteries.


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## 18650 (Dec 27, 2014)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I think Mag's problem is they had the market wrapped up long ago... got to thinking like a monopoly till LEDs rattled their cage and they adjusted to it but set their research cycle too slow to keep up with emitter and driver circuit design technology and instead of leading the market they were following the trends. One could say Mag played too much defense and got run over in time by a cheaper flood of lights from makers willing to manage profit and technology in real time to flood the market with ever growing better and cheaper light choices such that instead of stores using Mags multiple combinations of colors and cell type lights to pad their shelves they have many other manufacturers willing to give them deals to buy their products enough to sell that Mag products are no longer "needed". To end my point I will reuse the word "needed" in that at one time and place we sort of needed Mag to keep the market going kind of like having a slow but powerful running back to keep plodding up the field 3.5 yards a carry. This notion won for decades till the other opponents went to the passing game and taught their players how to take advantage of Mags fumbles. You can go to most stores now 10 years ago we had incan mags covering over half the pegs in stores, 5 years ago LED and incan mags covering close to half the pegs in stores and now maybe 1-2 pegs for the D cell latest LED mag and 1-2 pegs for the LED 2AA Mag and maybe if you look around a peg of the solitaire or 2AAA LED mag. No more color choices of LED mags on pegs instead we have Coleman, Rayovac, and other new brand names that didn't exist 10 years ago sporting interesting options. One could say the car industry in the US that was once only a few American brands got run over like Mag did.. complacency.


 What's the old business axiom? If you don't cannibalize your own market, somebody else will.


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## Ruislip (Dec 27, 2014)

I started with Maglites in the late 70s. First a 2xaaa, then a solitaire, then a 2xaa. They were sold with 'aircraft grade aluminium bodies' and were far stronger than the plastic or tin stuff that was then around. But the downside was the frequent need to change the bulbs, and the problem with the tail connection which frequently bent out of shape and made the light unreliable. So in my experience an led is a big improvement, though i don't know how the tail connector is now made, though I think the solitaire I bought my daughter still had the same set up. If I knew little about lights I'd probably see Maglite as being a reasonable purchase, and if I gave it as a gift the receiver would probably receive it well. For me I think the issue is that there are a number of companies working hard to make useful reliable lights, I'm not sure Maglite is putting in the same effort, and is trading on a reputation based on long established advertising, and not the actual experience of using their products.


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## Launch Mini (Dec 27, 2014)

I think the masses know the name, and just want a reasonably priced light that works when they turn it on.
One could pick on any consumer product. No one is the perfect Widget. 
They have a good thing. As long as their target market keeps buying them, there is no compelling reason to change it drastically.


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## Treeguy (Dec 27, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> The thing that irks me with Mag is they still are trying to accommodate those with using alkaleaks. IMO the reputation with Mag is slipping with them mainly sticking with alkaleaks when even their flashlights work well with LSD NiMHs and possibly li-ons. As i light enthusiast i don't trust alkaleak batteries.



Exactly. "As an enthusiast . . . " means you are not the general Joe Lunchbox buying public. You are a someone who has taken the time to learn about the nuances of lights and batteries and that makes you the exception, not the rule. Joe Lunchbox and his 10 million friends have never heard the term "alkaleaks". Mention "18650" and they'll think you're telling them the time. Tell them you're about to spend $150 on a Surefire flashlight and they'll question your sanity, and then ask you what a Surefire flashlight is and what it does.

As I mentioned, pretty much all my buddies are workers, tree cutters, landscapers, carpenters, excavators, and the like. I'd be surprised if even one of them owned a fancy lithium light, and I would not be surprised one little bit if every single one of them owned a Maglite.

It's all about Maglite's target audience: Maglite is for Joe Lunchbox, all the tens of millions of him.


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## Grijon (Dec 27, 2014)

Well said, Treeguy.


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## bdogps (Dec 27, 2014)

I think Maglite has tried to catch up with the current market and has made the third generation Maglite. They have the latest Cree XM L2. I agree with tree guy, most people stay away from anything that is different. That is why those chinese lights sell, they use regular alkaline batteries which is a great appeal to the average user. To be fair, most regular folk will only use their lights once or twice during the lifetime of the torch. Unless you have a job or hobby that requires you use a torch, then you will be interested what else is out there.


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## 18650 (Dec 27, 2014)

Treeguy said:


> Exactly. "As an enthusiast . . . " means you are not the general Joe Lunchbox buying public. You are a someone who has taken the time to learn about the nuances of lights and batteries and that makes you the exception, not the rule. Joe Lunchbox and his 10 million friends have never heard the term "alkaleaks". Mention "18650" and they'll think you're telling them the time. Tell them you're about to spend $150 on a Surefire flashlight and they'll question your sanity, and then ask you what a Surefire flashlight is and what it does. As I mentioned, pretty much all my buddies are workers, tree cutters, landscapers, carpenters, excavators, and the like. I'd be surprised if even one of them owned a fancy lithium light, and I would not be surprised one little bit if every single one of them owned a Maglite. It's all about Maglite's target audience: Maglite is for Joe Lunchbox, all the tens of millions of him.


 That's unfortunate. I know if I needed quality tools to perform my work, I'd learn everything I could about what's available.


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 27, 2014)

Treeguy said:


> Exactly. "As an enthusiast . . . " means you are not the general Joe Lunchbox buying public. You are a someone who has taken the time to learn about the nuances of lights and batteries and that makes you the exception, not the rule. Joe Lunchbox and his 10 million friends have never heard the term "alkaleaks". Mention "18650" and they'll think you're telling them the time. Tell them you're about to spend $150 on a Surefire flashlight and they'll question your sanity, and then ask you what a Surefire flashlight is and what it does.
> 
> As I mentioned, pretty much all my buddies are workers, tree cutters, landscapers, carpenters, excavators, and the like. I'd be surprised if even one of them owned a fancy lithium light, and I would not be surprised one little bit if every single one of them owned a Maglite.
> 
> It's all about Maglite's target audience: Maglite is for Joe Lunchbox, all the tens of millions of him.



And i totally get that, but on the other hand they mostly rely on alkaleaks. Unless they haven't heard of Eneloops, Duraloops and 18650s or even that NiMH technology works just fine with their flashlights i definitely don't like the idea of Mag expecting people to 'only use alkalines'. They specifically say in their manual not to use rechargeables. It's a general idea, they don't say don't use NiMH technology but NiMHs are rechargeable so people are going to think they can't use NiMHs in their flashlights. That to me is a problem when NiMHs have been provent o work flawlessly in their lights and even meet or exceed the minimum battery performance. Would be better if they did optimise their lights to work with both li-ons and NiMHs to let the user decide. It might be for their target audience, but i think Mag prefers to keep it that way instead of saying "hey, these will work just great with alkalines, we encourage you to try li-ons or NiMH technology". They don't have to do that but there's a difference between targeting alkaline users and trying to get them to experiment with other battery technologies. It might be bad for the alkaline companies but even Duracell and Energizer has rechargeable batteries, they offer an alternative for those who are not wanting to stick to alkalines and they are smart to adapt. So to me it feels like Mag just prefers to use alkalines instead of offering people an option and even give out statistics. They don't have to give up alkaline usage, but they should at least offer other alternatives. The average Joe Lunchbox might actually listen, there will be some that will only use alkalines but there's always a few that will be interested in hearing the other (reusable) battery technologies out there. Maglite can market their flashlights work with alkalines, but they could also offer other battery technologies and allow their flashlights to work with li-ons and NiMHs as well.

It's not really my call to make but Maglite is definitely missing out on better and more reliable batteries.


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## Treeguy (Dec 27, 2014)

18650 said:


> That's unfortunate. I know if I needed quality tools to perform my work, I'd learn everything I could about what's available.



There's nothing unfortunate about it. Their primary tools are what they require, as are mine.

Show me a tree badly cut, a trench badly dug, or a house badly built because the person owned a D cell Maglite and not an 18650 Fenix and I'll mail you a cup of coffee and a blueberry muffin.


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## Treeguy (Dec 27, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> It's not really my call to make but Maglite is definitely missing out on better and more reliable batteries.



(I edited your post quote for space, hope you don't mind.)

I hear you and in some ways I agree. But if you go into the major tool stores around here, Canadian Tire, Home Depot, and the like, you will never see an 18650 battery. Ever. You will see 123s sometimes, and always at ridiculous prices.

It's all about familiarity and building on that familiarity. It's about the target audience. Maglite is for Joe Lunch box, not Frank Fladhaholic. If Frank buys a Maglite, great. But he is not who the light is being marketed to.


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## ForrestChump (Dec 28, 2014)

Treeguy & Grijon get it. 

They seem to understand that Mag is a business, and there a BUNCH of F-150's out there.

Merica!


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## idleprocess (Dec 28, 2014)

Treeguy said:


> There's nothing unfortunate about it. Their primary tools are what they require, as are mine.
> 
> Show me a tree badly cut, a trench badly dug, or a house badly built because the person owned a D cell Maglite and not an 18650 Fenix and I'll mail you a cup of coffee and a blueberry muffin.


I predict you will not be mailing any cups of coffee nor blueberry muffins.

So long as maglite can move product at satisfactory volumes with satisfactory profit margin, they're not going to do anything radically different; with their high fixed costs due to heavy automation, they probably can't afford to change too radically.


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## ForrestChump (Dec 28, 2014)

:hahaha:




Treeguy said:


> There's nothing unfortunate about it. Their primary tools are what they require, as are mine.
> 
> *Show me a tree badly cut, a trench badly dug, or a house badly built because the person owned a D cell Maglite and not an 18650 Fenix and I'll mail you a cup of coffee and a blueberry muffin*.


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## ForrestChump (Dec 28, 2014)

idleprocess said:


> I predict you will not be mailing any cups of coffee nor blueberry muffins.
> 
> So long as maglite can move product at satisfactory volumes with satisfactory profit margin, they're not going to do anything radically different; with their high fixed costs due to heavy automation, they probably can't afford to change too radically.




This is pretty radical: http://maglite.com/

They can definatley afford it.

See my post #19.


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## Boss Hoss (Dec 28, 2014)

Must admit that ForrestChump hit the nail on the head. Mag is the Walmart of the flashlight world and there are a lot of people who do not know about the advances in the LED world and do not care. I do not know of any LEO's that carry them anymore. I have several friends both local and federal level --- one now carries one of my Elektro Lumens EDC's that I gave him.


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## ForrestChump (Dec 28, 2014)

Boss Hoss said:


> Must admit that ForrestChump hit the nail on the head. Mag is the Walmart of the flashlight world and there are a lot of people who do not know about the advances in the LED world and do not care.* I do not know of any LEO's that carry them anymore*. I have several friends both local and federal level --- one now carries one of my Elektro Lumens EDC's that I gave him.




That is an interesting point we all seemed to miss. That definitely would be a measurable blow to Maglite, although, like you said, You can take the Walmart out of the Maglite, but you can't take the Maglite out of the Walmart.


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## idleprocess (Dec 28, 2014)

Having worked in manufacturing before, I can say that new platforms are expensive to develop. If you produce in any volume, you need dedicated tooling, production space, assembly aids, a slew of unique part numbers for each bill of materials, testing equipment, do some expensive learning early on when it comes to production/quality, and naturally must distribute R&D cost over each new unit. Evolving existing platforms is so much cheaper since most of the aforementioned already exists and your expense is largely limited to R&D for the truly new aspects of the new model, and whatever additional flexibility you need to tweak your existing plant/processes to be able to make it. This is why automakers can offer a dozen-plus car models with a third the number of underlying platforms _(i.e. compact car, mid/size car, light/heavy truck platforms)_, and also why most model years change so little year-to-year.

I helped a previous employer eliminate 4 entire platforms _(retail and commercial units with two major variants each)_ while maintaining model lineup by designing flexibility into a single platform. By redesigning the innards so that one could swap components as needed and build up distinct housings, we cut about half of the needless unique parts out of the various bills of materials and forced the buildup to vary only when it absolutely necessary to produce distinction between models. The savings were immense in terms of inventory, production processes, and quality - to say nothing of what it did for lead times when selling units.



ForrestChump said:


> This is pretty radical: http://maglite.com/
> 
> They can definatley afford it.
> 
> See my post #19.


I disagree; the nature of high fixed costs such as automation and other capital equipment means that you need to get the as much volume out of it as possible in order to make a profit. The only new platforms in Mag's lineup lately appear to be the XL and the Mag-Tac. Otherwise, we have what appear to be feature and cosmetic variations on the classic lineup of _linear_ D, C, AA, and AAA platforms. Odds are that Mag needed to change surprisingly little in their processes and plant in order to introduce LED models (ala LX, PRO, and ML) since the variation from the original recipe is about the absolute minimum needed to achieve distinction. Maglite lives and dies by its automation - it's not hard to find references to this - so I would expect them to leverage existing capabilities to the hilt before wading into the terrific expense of fundamentally new capabilities.

Contrast to makers like Fenix, who deploy many new platforms a year _(LD50, E41, PD30 all seem to lack clear predecessors with similar mechanical envelopes and are new-isk)_; some of which will live and die within 12-24 months. Of course, Fenix probably doesn't invest in their own tooling nor much automation since they likely farm out all the production work and labor is cheap in their part of the world, so their main concern will likely be inventory commonality.



Although the game may be changing, even for Maglite. The MSRP's they suggest on their website for their newer models are an appreciable multiple of their "classic" line pricing; perhaps they have decided to up their prices so they can afford to develop new platforms with shorter lifespans than their classic lineup.


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## Treeguy (Dec 28, 2014)

Good post.


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## Grijon (Dec 28, 2014)

Treeguy said:


> Good post.



+1


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## KITROBASKIN (Dec 28, 2014)

idleprocess said:


> So long as maglite can move product at satisfactory volumes with satisfactory profit margin, they're not going to do anything radically different; with their high fixed costs due to heavy automation, they probably can't afford to change too radically.



Is MagLite a privately held company.? Is there someone calling the shots there, that may have a conservative bent? I'm thinking yes. But if you do check out their website, it does look like they are stepping up their game, and promoting rechargeables/smaller lights. And they very likely have the cash to do substantial R&D. 


CandlePowerForums App


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## ForrestChump (Dec 28, 2014)

@ idle: Mostly agree but If they wanted, they could have just got a loan or line of credit for pennies on the dollar to pull an immediate profit? They have been 

around long enough I bet they could also just paid cash if they didn't want the note.

Not saying that manufacturing held no weight in the process of evolving their lights, it absolutely did, but I believe the market and speed at which people 

adapt to the new pricing / product played the leading role. If LED Maglights were going to fly off the shelves faster than they are selling now, Mag would have 

evolved a lot faster. They would have had a brand new Bat Cave setup in a couple months.


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## idleprocess (Dec 28, 2014)

KITROBASKIN said:


> Is MagLite a privately held company.? Is there someone calling the shots there, that may have a conservative bent? I'm thinking yes. But if you do check out their website, it does look like they are stepping up their game, and promoting rechargeables/smaller lights. And they very likely have the cash to do substantial R&D.


I believe they are privately-held - likely the very reason that they're still based in the US. A publicly-held company would likely have relocated operations offshore decades ago due to shareholder pressures for better profits.



ForrestChump said:


> @ idle: Mostly agree but If they wanted, they could have just got a loan or line of credit for pennies on the dollar to pull an immediate profit? They have been around long enough I bet they could also just paid cash if they didn't want the note.


Entirely possible, but their apparent loss of market share over the last decade might put a crimp those strategies. Also, their two new platforms are scarcely out of their infancy by Maglite standards and they're cranking out variants of their classic lineup, thus I doubt new platform(s) will be introduced anytime soon.


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## KITROBASKIN (Dec 28, 2014)

idleprocess said:


> ...thus I doubt new platform(s) will be introduced anytime soon.



Yeah, but they're working on it.


CandlePowerForums App


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## ForrestChump (Dec 28, 2014)

idleprocess said:


> I believe they are privately-held - likely the very reason that they're still based in the US. A publicly-held company would likely have relocated operations offshore decades ago due to shareholder pressures for better profits.
> 
> 
> *Entirely possible, but their apparent loss of market share over the last decade might put a crimp those strategies.* Also, their two new platforms are scarcely out of their infancy by Maglite standards and they're cranking out variants of their classic lineup, thus I doubt new platform(s) will be introduced anytime soon.




Interesting. Im sure there is market share lost, but as noted before, they are a pretty darn big company in the states. I guess all we can really do is speculate.


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## nitedrive (Dec 29, 2014)

I just thought I would add a few other points.

1. Having just gone on the Maglite site and looked at some manuals I see NOTHING that said don't use NiMH batteries. The warning was do not use rechargeable alkaline batteries. Those were alkalines that were somehow doctored to make charging possible. They were only good for something like 30 cycles but the idea was alkaline prices but rechargeable. Do any of you use them? I think Mag's language is somewhat confusing:


> Do not use rechargeable or reuseable alkaline batteries. • Do not try to recharge batteries that are not specifically designed to be recharged.


However, that sentence does NOT say don't use NiMH or NiCad. The first sentence would be better if they wrote it as "rechargeable alkaline or reusable alkaline". The second sentence should have clarified but the double negative might confuse. Perhaps if they wrote "Only use rechargable batteries that are specifically designed to be recharged." The whole point was to warn against charging alkalines and against using the reusable alkalines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechargeable_alkaline_battery

2. Maglite has two reasons to be lawsuit happy. First is the way trademark law works. If you don't act to protect a trade mark you can legally lose it. Aspirin was a trademark name that became generic. Kleenex and Xerox are both trademark names that were dangerously close. If Mag doesn't show they are willing to fight to protect their designs then another company could produce a clear knockoff and then win in court by saying Mag wasn't protecting their design. This is sometimes a lousy deal. Take Bose going after the very high end speaker company Thiel over the 2.2 model number. No one would confuse the low end crap Bose makes with the very high end stuff Thiel was making just as few are likely to confuse Maglite with an esoteric flashlight company. However, if someone like Brinkman decides to produce a Mag knock off as they did in the past then they could use Mag's failure to go after a little guy as proof that they weren't protecting their designs. So we might see Mag as suit happy but that is likely the fault of the legal system, not a desire to be mean to the little guys.


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## ForrestChump (Dec 29, 2014)

Interesting to note:

I have on good authority Maglight does not recommend lithium batteries in there AAA & AA lights.

This is sad. Add one more ding to my argument.


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## mcnair55 (Dec 29, 2014)

ForrestChump said:


> Interesting to note:
> 
> I have on good authority Maglight does not recommend lithium batteries in there AAA & AA lights.
> 
> This is sad. Add one more ding to my argument.



No doubt let me guess they sell there own brand Alkaline batteries. I can tell you straight off any Mag lite in my collection runs just fine on Eneloop type.


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## ForrestChump (Dec 29, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> No doubt let me guess they sell there own brand Alkaline batteries. I can tell you straight off any Mag lite in my collection runs just fine on Eneloop type.




Yeah, I don't doubt they run on eneloops. They do not however have their own battery brand. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they had a sweetheart deal with Duracell.


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## Treeguy (Dec 29, 2014)

I was at Costco the other day and picked up a sweetheart deal on a pack of a dozen Duracell D cells.

I don't own a D cell flashlight. It was in anticipation of one of the new Maglites.

My wife thinks I'm insane. :wave: _"Hey sweety!"_


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## mcnair55 (Dec 29, 2014)

ForrestChump said:


> Yeah, I don't doubt they run on eneloops. They do not however have their own battery brand. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they had a sweetheart deal with Duracell.



To be honest I would do the same thing as do Led Lenser and I would go one step further and ban the use of any other battery apart from what make I dictate to Mr&Mrs Joe Public.The buying public are like putty in your hands and you can tell them any old pony poop and they fall for it.


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## turbodog (Dec 29, 2014)

thedoc007 said:


> That to me is an argument for multiple well-spaced modes, not for lowering max brightness. You CAN have it both ways...the MMU-X3 simply doesn't have the design that makes it good for everyday tasks. That doesn't in any way imply it is too bright.



The x3 has a 200 lumen mode and 1600 mode. 200 is fine and multi level is fine. However, continued progression in emitter efficiency ultimately ends up with a light that is too bright.

Extreme example... would you trust your kids with a 2000 lumen light (multiple levels) to look for a dropped item in the backseat of a dark car as you drive down the highway? What if they pick the wrong level? The explosion of light could be enough to cause a wreck. This isn't the best example... but at some point lights can become a hindrance, even dangerous.

And that's why I say they need more in the aaa/aa market. Long tem, that's where everything will be.


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## turbodog (Dec 29, 2014)

18650 said:


> We are far from a mature product market as you describe. There's still much to do in terms of efficiency (for longer life) and tint/CRI (for more pleasing looking light). I'll believe we're there when I see flashlights in the lighting aisle separated in 2700K/4000K/5000K/6500K piles like we do with light bulbs.



We are gonna hit the 'too bright' mark before that point. You will see brightness hold stead while runtime increases.

Notice the parallels in the pc CPU market over the past 5 years? I can still buy a 4 core i7 3.4GHz chip just like 5 freakin' years ago... but at drastically lower power consumption numbers. Compare this with new generations of CPUs coming out each 18-24 months prior to that (pentium 1/2/3/4, core 2). We are literally 4-5 years on the same platform. I can get 6 core models now, but the architecture and clock speed are the same.

All markets mature...


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 29, 2014)

nitedrive said:


> I just thought I would add a few other points.
> 
> 1. Having just gone on the Maglite site and looked at some manuals I see NOTHING that said don't use NiMH batteries. The warning was do not use rechargeable alkaline batteries. Those were alkalines that were somehow doctored to make charging possible. They were only good for something like 30 cycles but the idea was alkaline prices but rechargeable. Do any of you use them? I think Mag's language is somewhat confusing:





> Do not use rechargeable or reuseable alkaline batteries. • Do not try to recharge batteries that are not specifically designed to be recharged.





> However, that sentence does NOT say don't use NiMH or NiCad. The first sentence would be better if they wrote it as "rechargeable alkaline or reusable alkaline". The second sentence should have clarified but the double negative might confuse. Perhaps if they wrote "Only use rechargable batteries that are specifically designed to be recharged." The whole point was to warn against charging alkalines and against using the reusable alkalines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechargeable_alkaline_battery



I must have got confused by that, or didn't read it right. It sounded like they were saying don't use rechargeables, but are they just saying do not use rechargeable alkalines? Not rechargeables in general? Yeah they didn't mention NiMH or NiCad in that sentence. I have never used rechargeable alkalines before but i'm still curious to wonder why they would say something like that since that wiki article says they made rechargeable alkalines safe to prevent leakage. Unless they are trying to prevent users from charging regular alkalines that would cause problems. Even some NiMH batteries such as Energizer or Duracell has similar wrappers to alkalines and some people may not notice the difference and accidently charge an alkaline battery, if that is where Mag is trying to caution people about.


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## ForrestChump (Dec 29, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> *To be honest I would do the same thing as do Led Lenser and I would go one step further and ban the use of any other battery* apart from what make I dictate to Mr&Mrs Joe Public.The buying public are like putty in your hands and you can tell them any old pony poop and they fall for it.




I think that's what's going on with Duracell to an extent.


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## thedoc007 (Dec 29, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> To be honest I would do the same thing as do Led Lenser and I would go one step further and ban the use of any other battery apart from what make I dictate to Mr&Mrs Joe Public.The buying public are like putty in your hands and you can tell them any old pony poop and they fall for it.



I somehow missed this post...but when Forrest quoted it, I couldn't stop laughing. mcnair, you certainly have a way with words.


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## mcnair55 (Dec 30, 2014)

thedoc007 said:


> I somehow missed this post...but when Forrest quoted it, I couldn't stop laughing. mcnair, you certainly have a way with words.



Glad you like the parody.Another way you could describe Maglite is they are _*Grandma Foolers.*_:thumbsup:


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## The Municipality (Dec 31, 2014)

As the old-timers die off, Maglite will be in quite a pickle if they don't adapt soon.


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## nitedrive (Dec 31, 2014)

ForrestChump said:


> Interesting to note:
> 
> I have on good authority Maglight does not recommend lithium batteries in there AAA & AA lights.
> 
> This is sad. Add one more ding to my argument.


I would suspect that they are thinking about Li-ion batteries, not Li primaries. Li primaries are 1.5V per cell (AA types, not the CR123s which of course should not be used) and should have no issues. I suspect Maglite has a few concerns.
1. Leakage... I could be wrong here since of course the Alkalines that come with the light can leak.
2. Cell swelling. Maglites have relatively little clearance around the cells so if the cell swells or if a manufacture cheat the specs and makes a larger diameter cell to increase capacity it could get stuck in the light. How many times have you seen a post asking how to get stuck cells out of a Maglite?
3. Over voltage. This would be true in people use cell with more than 1.5V (nominal). I'm sure the lights can handle say 1.7V per cell but not 3.0 or 4.1 V/cell as you might get with some Li primaries or Li-ion rechargeables. 

I have had leaking Alkalines get stuck in older Maglites so I could see why they would want to be cautious. However, I would also assume if they don't say not to in the instructions then they figure it's OK.


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## ForrestChump (Jan 1, 2015)

The Municipality said:


> As the old-timers die off, Maglite will be in quite a pickle if they don't adapt soon.



:welcome:


I can't wait for the day when there are no more phone books.......


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## Ruislip (Jan 2, 2015)

No phone books in my part of the UK anymore. Doesn't stop a load of strangers phoning me with personal offers though.........


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## ForrestChump (Jan 3, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> I would suspect that they are thinking about Li-ion batteries, not Li primaries. Li primaries are 1.5V per cell (AA types, not the CR123s which of course should not be used) and should have no issues. I suspect Maglite has a few concerns.
> 1. Leakage... I could be wrong here since of course the Alkalines that come with the light can leak.
> 2. Cell swelling. Maglites have relatively little clearance around the cells so if the cell swells or if a manufacture cheat the specs and makes a larger diameter cell to increase capacity it could get stuck in the light. How many times have you seen a post asking how to get stuck cells out of a Maglite?
> 3. Over voltage. This would be true in people use cell with more than 1.5V (nominal). I'm sure the lights can handle say 1.7V per cell but not 3.0 or 4.1 V/cell as you might get with some Li primaries or Li-ion rechargeables.
> ...



:welcome:

Primary lithiums don't leak. I believe they understood what battery I was talking about. That said, more than a few times I have inquired to different manufactures on "Primary" lithiums and many seem to not know the difference. Im always looking to simplify life so I just don't buy lights from light companies that don't know the difference. One time I exchanged 4-5 email's explaining what a Lithium Primary was...

If I buy a car and inquire to the manufacturer the best gas to put in it, and they don't understand Diesel from Unleaded, I won't have much faith in their car....

Also, lights that run exclusively on Alkalines are useless to me personally.


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## nitedrive (Jan 3, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> :welcome:
> 
> Primary lithiums don't leak. I believe they understood what battery I was talking about. That said, more than a few times I have inquired to different manufactures on "Primary" lithiums and many seem to not know the difference. Im always looking to simplify life so I just don't buy lights from light companies that don't know the difference. One time I exchanged 4-5 email's explaining what a Lithium Primary was...
> 
> ...



Thanks for the welcome 

I understand primary lithiums don't leak. I had one of those Energizer Lithium Ultimate 2AA lights that came with Li primaries. It was actually quite a nice light. Anyway, I suspect they don't include Li primaries because they are quite expensive compared to Alkalines. Also, I have to say, aside from the lights I have left in my car, I haven't had lot's of issues with leaking cells. 

Anyway, since we were not privy to the conversation in question there is no way to know. However, I can say their instructions are clear that you should not use recharged alkalines. It says nothing about not using Li primaries of the correct type (ie AA Li in a AA light). Since their manual doesn't say not to and they are clear about other batteries types to avoid I would have to assume they are OK with Li primaries. Furthermore I can't believe that their engineers would be confused by the battery types. They make the MagTacs which do use Li primaries. It is more likely you were dealing with a failure to communicate. They were probably worried that you were talking about a Li-ion cell and just got that stuck in their heads. Again, their current product range includes lights that use primary 1.5V cells, primary 3.0V cells and various rechargeable. It's VERY unlikely that their engineers didn't know what was going on. It's far more likely that there was a failure to understand. 

BTW, I do notice that my rebel powered AA mini-mag has a slight bit of PWMing when used with NiMHs. It seems the difference between 1.5V and 1.2V/cell is seen as a 95% or so duty cycle in the output of the light. Note that my XL200 and Mag LED solitaire show no similar behavior.

Personally I rather like the Maglites I have for the money I've spent on them. However, I haven't bothered with really expensive lights. Running on AA or AAA NiMH cells is a plus for me.


----------



## ForrestChump (Jan 3, 2015)

When you say "Li" people equate that with rechargeable lithium ions. I always say Lithium Primaries to avoid any confusion.
I have no idea what the manuel is talking about rechargeable alkalines, if it does read the way you stated.


All things considered in this thread, and Mag officially not supporting Lithium batteries, at the risk of sounding like a complete hypocrite, I'd steer clear and get something else. I still love Mag though, can't shake that. Reading Calvin & Hobbes with a Maglight is irrevocable in my nostalgia department.


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## nitedrive (Jan 3, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> When you say "Li" people equate that with rechargeable lithium ions. I always say Lithium Primaries to avoid any confusion.
> I have no idea what the manuel is talking about rechargeable alkalines, if it does read the way you stated.
> 
> 
> All things considered in this thread, and Mag officially not supporting Lithium batteries, at the risk of sounding like a complete hypocrite, I'd steer clear and get something else. I still love Mag though, can't shake that. Reading Calvin & Hobbes with a Maglight is irrevocable in my nostalgia department.


There is no evidence that Maglite does not support Li primaries. The owner's manuals, available on the Maglite website, only say don't use rechargeable alkalines* and do not use recharged batteries that were not "rechargeable". That is don't recharge a non-rechargeable battery and then use it. I didn't read the whole manual carefully enough but I assume they say only use batteries of the correct type. Thus "AA" and not a Li-ion that happens to be the same size. The wording in their manual certainly could/should be better but in the end, Maglite does not say to avoid Li primary batteries. 

*In case people haven't heard of these, I recall the battery companies marketing these things 5-10 years back. I suspect they have died out because NiMHs have come down in price. 
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/will_the_reusable_alkaline_battery_have_a_future
Having scanned through BU's information it's possible that leaking isn't the only concern. The manufactures always caution about putting mismatched cells in a device. Well given the big drop in performance with each charge cycle a rechargeable alkaline is almost certainly going to result in mismatched cells after just a few cycles and perhaps even after one charge cycle. IIRC the reason to avoid mismatched cells is an increased risk of leaking and now we have rechargeable alkalines that would appear to make that risk even greater.


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## bdogps (Jan 4, 2015)

I am just curious, what does it really come down to? The type of battery or the voltage being delivered?


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## ForrestChump (Jan 4, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> There is no evidence that Maglite does not support Li primaries. The owner's manuals, available on the Maglite website, only say don't use rechargeable alkalines* and do not use recharged batteries that were not "rechargeable". That is don't recharge a non-rechargeable battery and then use it. I didn't read the whole manual carefully enough but I assume they say only use batteries of the correct type. Thus "AA" and not a Li-ion that happens to be the same size. The wording in their manual certainly could/should be better but in the end, Maglite does not say to avoid Li primary batteries.
> 
> *In case people haven't heard of these, I recall the battery companies marketing these things 5-10 years back. I suspect they have died out because NiMHs have come down in price.
> http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/will_the_reusable_alkaline_battery_have_a_future
> Having scanned through BU's information it's possible that leaking isn't the only concern. The manufactures always caution about putting mismatched cells in a device. Well given the big drop in performance with each charge cycle a rechargeable alkaline is almost certainly going to result in mismatched cells after just a few cycles and perhaps even after one charge cycle. IIRC the reason to avoid mismatched cells is an increased risk of leaking and now we have rechargeable alkalines that would appear to make that risk even greater.





200% sure it won't handle L ion ( happy for someone to prove me wrong). I would be impressed.

100% sure Mag does not officially support the use of lithium primaries as per their email. ​Many members have tried and have not had a problem.


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## nitedrive (Jan 4, 2015)

bdogps said:


> I am just curious, what does it really come down to? The type of battery or the voltage being delivered?


When it comes to type of battery I would think Maglite has 3 concerns.
1. Will the voltage be too high? Not a problem when you use a 1.5V Li AA since that is the same voltage as a standard AA. Not a problem with NiMH or NiCad since they are lower voltage than standard AAs. That lower voltage can be a problem in some devices but I'm not sure I've seen a flashlight where they were concerned. However, if we are talking about the Li rechargeable that's a different mater. The common Li-ion rechargeable are 3.6V. If you put those in a 2AA Maglite you are now delivering 7.2V (over 8V when freshly charged) into a light designed to deal with ~3V. Yes, that is likely to screw things up!

2. Will the battery leak? Well this is a rather obvious concern and I suspect that is why Maglite wants nothing to do with reusable alkaline batteries. 

3. Related to #2 is will the battery swell. Maglite's don't have much space around the batteries. A bit of battery swelling or leakage can result in stuck batteries. 



ForrestChump said:


> 200% sure it won't handle L ion ( happy for someone to prove me wrong). I would be impressed.
> 
> 100% sure Mag does not officially support the use of lithium primaries as per their email. ​Many members have tried and have not had a problem.


I'm 300% sure you are right about the Li ion rechargables. I didn't find a warning explicitly saying don't use 3.6V Li-ions in the Magtacs but the manual says only CR123. The 3.6V batteries aren't CR123s so it would be off label use (to borrow a pharmaceutical term).
As for Li primaries they certainly support their use in the lights that are designed to use CR123 cells. The other product manuals state you should use a given type of battery. 
http://maglite.com/wp-content/uploa...h/Product Manuals/Mini_Maglite_AA_LED_WHS.pdf
The way I read that is they say if you are going to use alkalines they are concerned about leaks thus only use from a reputable manufacture of batteries and don't use the rechargeable (aka reusable) alkalines. I see NOTHING that says don't use other types of AA batteries (ie Li primaries). Since we don't know what was said in the email we can't take that as the official Maglite position on this topic.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 4, 2015)

Honestly, the best kind of battery I can use in my Maglites is alkalines.

Because, they will hopefully leak and destroy the all the POS Maglites I have bought over the years!

The only Maglite I've never been happy with is my old 4xD incandescent Maglite. Great light. Oh, and its smaller cousin the 4xC Maglite.

All the others I've bought (and I bought plenty) have had issues with flickering, at least to some degree. I think it has to do with the design of the integrated zooming and on/off feature. I gave up buying Maglites a few years ago, when I discovered that there are much better lights to be bought for about the same price. Other than grandpas that still buy Maglites, I have no idea how they stay in business.


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## ForrestChump (Jan 4, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> When it comes to type of battery I would think Maglite has 3 concerns.
> *1** Will the voltage be too high? Not a problem when you use a 1.5V Li AA since that is the same voltage as a standard AA.* Not a problem with NiMH or NiCad since they are lower voltage than standard AAs. That lower voltage can be a problem in some devices but I'm not sure I've seen a flashlight where they were concerned. However, if we are talking about the Li rechargeable that's a different mater. The common Li-ion rechargeable are 3.6V. If you put those in a 2AA Maglite you are now delivering 7.2V (over 8V when freshly charged) into a light designed to deal with ~3V. Yes, that is likely to screw things up!
> 
> 2. Will the battery leak? Well this is a rather obvious concern and I suspect that is why Maglite wants nothing to do with reusable alkaline batteries.
> ...



1** Lithium primary often peak at 1.7 when fresh I believe. This is why Mag discourages their use supposedly.

2** :laughing:

3** I was referring to aa / aaa. I bet 3.6 Li-on would fry a Mag-Tac

4** "I had a pill for every ill and I was sick a lot."

5** The email said do not use lithium batteries. I was inquiring about aa/aaa. Call them and I bet they would confirm.


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## nitedrive (Jan 4, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> 1** Lithium primary often peak at 1.7 when fresh I believe. This is why Mag discourages their use supposedly.
> 
> 2** :laughing:
> 
> ...


I don't see 1.7V being a concern vs ~ 1.65V for alkalines? You might be right but given that they mention the rare rechargeable alkalines but not the Li primaries it's reasonable to assume they are not worried about the small increase in voltage. 

I recall reading a review of the MagTac that said don't use 3.6V Li ions as an alternative to the CR123s. 

Can you post the emails (with names scrubbed)?


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## thedoc007 (Jan 4, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> Can you post the emails (with names scrubbed)?



It is not appropriate for any member of CandlePowerForums to post and/or quote in the open forums any part of a private communication that is authored by someone other than themselves. This includes, but is not limited to, emails and private messages. Private communications, for these purposes defined as anything that is not originally posted in the open forums, are just that - private. The author has a reasonable expectation of it remaining so. CandlePowerForums honors and respects that and unless there are certain exigent circumstances (determined by a member of the CPF staff), you will be asked to remove the material in question and/or it will be removed for you by a member of the CPF staff. Depending on the severity and/or repetetiveness of the offense, posting privileges can be removed temporarily or permanently.

Paraphrasing and/or presenting a condensed version (summary) of private communications is perfectly acceptable. *Direct Quotes (copy and paste) are NOT acceptable in the open forums unless all authors agree in the open forum to waive claims to privacy. *


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## nitedrive (Jan 4, 2015)

thedoc007 said:


> It is not appropriate for any member of CandlePowerForums to post and/or quote in the open forums any part of a private communication that is authored by someone other than themselves. This includes, but is not limited to, emails and private messages. Private communications, for these purposes defined as anything that is not originally posted in the open forums, are just that - private. The author has a reasonable expectation of it remaining so. CandlePowerForums honors and respects that and unless there are certain exigent circumstances (determined by a member of the CPF staff), you will be asked to remove the material in question and/or it will be removed for you by a member of the CPF staff. Depending on the severity and/or repetetiveness of the offense, posting privileges can be removed temporarily or permanently.
> 
> Paraphrasing and/or presenting a condensed version (summary) of private communications is perfectly acceptable. *Direct Quotes (copy and paste) are NOT acceptable in the open forums unless all authors agree in the open forum to waive claims to privacy. *



Well that would make it hard for us to know what to think of these emails. If we can't read them then we really can't put any stock in the discussion. Again, I would go back to the user manuals which do mention the rare rechargeable Alkalines but not Li primaries. I would guess Maglite doesn't have anything against using Li primaries.


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## ForrestChump (Jan 4, 2015)

To wrap up this specific topic:

Maglite = No Lithiums.

Mag-Tac = CR123 Lithium Primaries only.

- Direct from Maglite.


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## fivemega (Jan 4, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> Not a problem when you use a 1.5V Li AA since that is the same voltage as a standard AA.


*Wrong! Measuring open voltage of new battery, won't tell you much.*



nitedrive said:


> I don't see 1.7V being a concern vs ~ 1.65V for alkalines?


*When using Li primaries, voltage to bulb pins under load will be much higher compare to Alkaline primaries.*


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## idleprocess (Jan 4, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> To wrap up this specific topic:
> 
> Maglite = No Lithiums.
> 
> ...



Not liking the narrow mini-maglite battery tube tolerances after cleaning up the mess from leaking alkalines not discovered until years later. Tried to slide some eneloops down the tube and they got stuck at a point where there was some *just* discernable corrosion remaining. Guess I'm going to tell dad to just stick to lithiums from now on out since I don't want to monkey around with that process ever again.


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## nitedrive (Jan 4, 2015)

fivemega said:


> *Wrong! Measuring open voltage of new battery, won't tell you much.*
> 
> 
> *When using Li primaries, voltage to bulb pins under load will be much higher compare to Alkaline primaries.*



Believe it or not I totally get this. I did actually design Li-ion and other batteries for industrial applications earlier in my career. The voltage under load is a non-issue assuming they didn't do a grossly incompetent job of designing the current controls. For example if you had a simple current limiting resistor and expected the load on the cells to pull down the voltage to a level that results in correct current to the LED. This was mentioned in another thread about some low cost Duracell LED lights. 

The other concern is the unloaded voltage exceeds the limits of some circuit. For example you might have a gate or diode that say can't exceed 3.3V. A pair of alkalines are just under that while a pair of Li primaries are just over it. 

Regardless, you actually do care about the unloaded voltage as well as the loaded voltage depending on your failure mode. 

*I guess I should note that I'm not talking about incandescent lights but the LED lights. I simply assumed no one here would bother with incandescent Maglites these days. If the bulb expects the voltage to drop to limit the current then you could have the same issue as people are seeing with the cheap Duracell lights. Again, that doesn't relate to a current controlled LED light.


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## nitedrive (Jan 4, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> To wrap up this specific topic:
> 
> Maglite = No Lithiums.
> 
> ...



CR123 rechargables work just fine (not the CR123 sized 3.6V Li-ion cells). Perhaps fivemega is correct that Maglite is worried about limiting current through the incandescent bulbs. Regardless, without knowing what you asked and the context of the answer we can't know. I mean clearly your claim that Maglite doesn't want you to use Lithiums doesn't apply to the MagTacs that come with Li primaries. You can't post their replies but you can post your emails and summarize their replies. 

Regardless, I think you have taken what ever email to something beyond what they likely intended.


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## ForrestChump (Jan 4, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> CR123 rechargables work just fine (not the CR123 sized 3.6V Li-ion cells). Perhaps fivemega is correct that Maglite is worried about limiting current through the incandescent bulbs. Regardless, without knowing what you asked and the context of the answer we can't know. I mean clearly your claim that Maglite doesn't want you to use Lithiums doesn't apply to the MagTacs that come with Li primaries. You can't post their replies but you can post your emails and summarize their replies.
> 
> Regardless, I think you have taken what ever email to something beyond what they likely intended.



What?

Read post #91.


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## nitedrive (Jan 4, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> What?
> 
> Read post #91.



I know you acknowledged the Magtac's use of primary Lithiums. However, the LiFePO4 Lithium rechargeable are fine since they have an acceptable voltage. The big drawback is they have ~1/3rd the capacity of the standard CR123A cell.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?366975-CR123A-and-rechargeable-substitutes 

So right there we can't conclude MagTacs shouldn't use rechargeable. Furthermore aside from an email in which you say Maglite says don't use Li primary AAs there is no evidence Maglite would be against their use. They certainly don't say to avoid them in the product manual. You claim to have an email but without reading the email we have no idea of the context of the discussion so we can only go on the user manuals. They don't say no. The only AA cells to which they say "no" are recharged or rechargeable alkaline. The only reasonable argument that has been put forth against Li primaries is the risk that they would have higher voltage under load and thus could shorten the life/blow an incandescent bulb That is possible but if we are talking about moving forward why talk about incandescent bulbs?


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## ForrestChump (Jan 4, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> To wrap up this specific topic:
> 
> Maglite = No Lithiums.
> 
> ...


**


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## nitedrive (Jan 5, 2015)

I think we hit our circular point. Regardless, you haven't be able to support your view and without reading the email we can't know what Maglite said. Their current manuals do not support your POV.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 5, 2015)

mcnair55 said:


> The best way is to find out what the last recorded accounts look like ie turnover and profit.I imagine they are still a heavyweight seller worldwide and like Led Lenser they dominate the retail market.
> 
> I have no idea why the op thinks it is difficult to buy a Maglite in the UK as it is dead easy.All you do is go to where you would think you would get a decent torch and the two brands on offer will be Maglite and Led Lenser.
> 
> I think personally Fenix are gearing up for a move into retail sales rather than the very minute and restrictive hobby market.


They are difficult to buy on the shelves these days. For example, the nearest town to me has a Tesco, Morrisons, Homebase and a Halfords.

None sell or stock Maglites off the shelf. Halfords are a "stockist", but only get them into order and then only the incan range for the most part.

I don't recall seeing Maglites in B&Q or Wicks locally either. Jessops used to be a stockist years ago, although again mostly to order, not off the self.

The only place I know I could walk into and find LED Maglites on the shelf semi-locally to me is Go Outdoor (20 miles away). But they want £50-60 ($79-95) just for an old generation XL50.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 5, 2015)

guthrie said:


> I agree with you in general re. Maglite, but the crack about alkaline cells is just wrong. My first and most used (now 4.5 years old) flashaholics type torch is a 4sevens Quark mini AA, and there are now quite a few powerful AA alkaline powered torches out there. And which is better, having a battery leak or having it explode?
> 
> I disagree with Mcnair55, I'm seeing more LED Lenser torches in the shops than maglites.


NiMh does not explode.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 5, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> On topic: You are spot on. I think as flashaolics we forget that these are _businesses, _most who have 0 interest in us as we are aren't even a blip on the map to companies like Maglite...


I'm not sure that's true.

I'm not denying that big business mass sales is different. But the "hobby" of flashlights is big enough to support a lot of other companies, be it Fenix, through 4Sevens to Sunwayman and a host of budget lights and the massive market of the Chinese budget brands. Places like Banggood, Dealmatic, DX, FastTech and all the others must shift a large volume of lights.

And even places like Going Gear and LEDfiretorches (UK), when all added up must also turn over a lot of flashlights.

When a "niche" like flashaholics can support, what 20, 30, 50 other companies almost entirely. Then that really should be a market any torch maker takes seriously.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 5, 2015)

Treeguy said:


> Yep. Most of my buddies are workers who use tools every day and if I started on about 18650s and CR123s and Quarks and Olights and the like, they'd think I just came from Mars. The only funky or rechargeable batteries they know about go on the butt end of their Makitas and Dewalts.
> 
> And here's the kicker about "the fancy stuff" - the majority aren't/wouldn't be interested. They don't know and they don't care if they don't know. But mention a D cell Maglite and they'd know right away what I was talking about.
> 
> Maglite is glacial in how it moves, but they have brand recognition up the wazoo. Joe Lunchbox will recognize it on the shelf right away and think it's a good quality light. That's worth a ton of money.


Consumer ignorance only last for so long and only goes so far. Just look at how popular and dominant Japanese cars have become globally over the past 40-50 years.

In principle it's no different really. And over time people realise just buying the same old, just because they know the name is not really a valid reason to keep buying.


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## ForrestChump (Jan 5, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> I think we hit our circular point. Regardless, you haven't be able to support your view and without reading the email we can't know what Maglite said. Their current manuals do not support your POV.




We are done here.


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## mcnair55 (Jan 5, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> They are difficult to buy on the shelves these days. For example, the nearest town to me has a Tesco, Morrisons, Homebase and a Halfords.
> 
> None sell or stock Maglites off the shelf. Halfords are a "stockist", but only get them into order and then only the incan range for the most part.
> 
> ...




Not a problem in my neck of the woods buying Maglites,I take more interest than most as my employer sells there own brand into the end user trade.When we buy in new lights we never seem to buy enough and we run out so quickly,for instance 3000 lights may only last about 3 days if the sales force fancy a go at moving then,the restocking period can be 3 months or more because ours are all with company logo.



Chicken Drumstick said:


> I'm not sure that's true.
> 
> I'm not denying that big business mass sales is different. But the "hobby" of flashlights is big enough to support a lot of other companies, be it Fenix, through 4Sevens to Sunwayman and a host of budget lights and the massive market of the Chinese budget brands. Places like Banggood, Dealmatic, DX, FastTech and all the others must shift a large volume of lights.
> 
> ...



A lot of these companies are heavily involved in making own label,supplying various trades and defence contracts.Many services will have lights made to a spec.Hobby lights have very high mark ups due to low volumes and non hobby buyers would not be attracted in the least.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 5, 2015)

Launch Mini said:


> I think the masses know the name, and just want a reasonably priced light that works when they turn it on.
> One could pick on any consumer product. No one is the perfect Widget.
> They have a good thing. As long as their target market keeps buying them, there is no compelling reason to change it drastically.


I'm not saying change what they currently sell so much as state they could sell other items which I think would prove popular and expand the range, reputation and market position of the company.

Seriously, who here wouldn't consider a 1xAA Solitaire that would work well on NiMH or alkaline, with say 3 or 2 output modes?


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 5, 2015)

Treeguy said:


> Exactly. "As an enthusiast . . . " means you are not the general Joe Lunchbox buying public. You are a someone who has taken the time to learn about the nuances of lights and batteries and that makes you the exception, not the rule. Joe Lunchbox and his 10 million friends have never heard the term "alkaleaks". Mention "18650" and they'll think you're telling them the time. Tell them you're about to spend $150 on a Surefire flashlight and they'll question your sanity, and then ask you what a Surefire flashlight is and what it does.
> 
> As I mentioned, pretty much all my buddies are workers, tree cutters, landscapers, carpenters, excavators, and the like. I'd be surprised if even one of them owned a fancy lithium light, and I would not be surprised one little bit if every single one of them owned a Maglite.
> 
> It's all about Maglite's target audience: Maglite is for Joe Lunchbox, all the tens of millions of him.


But there is a difference between supporting alkelines and actively not supporting other batteries.

I think most Mags still say on the packet not to use rechargeable batteries - wtf!!!!!

And while I don't object to how they offer regulation, it means that if you do use NiMh you don't get the performance benefit you should. In fact you'd be better off with a direct driven light.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 5, 2015)

Treeguy said:


> (I edited your post quote for space, hope you don't mind.)
> 
> I hear you and in some ways I agree. But if you go into the major tool stores around here, Canadian Tire, Home Depot, and the like, you will never see an 18650 battery. Ever. You will see 123s sometimes, and always at ridiculous prices.
> 
> It's all about familiarity and building on that familiarity. It's about the target audience. Maglite is for Joe Lunch box, not Frank Fladhaholic. If Frank buys a Maglite, great. But he is not who the light is being marketed to.


But NiMh are not rare and still not "supported" or promoted by Maglite for their wider range of lights.

And yes, while there is degree of what's on the shelf in a store. But lets not forget more and more people buy online these days. So for the vast majority of the developed world, there is easy, quick access to something better than an alkaline battery.

And lets not forget, mobile (cell) phones, laptops, tablets, digital camera's, vaping and a host of other modern technology are all bringing other battery types into people houses.

I suspect there are very few households that don't contain multiple examples of Li-ion and NiMh powered devices.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 5, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> I predict you will not be mailing any cups of coffee nor blueberry muffins.
> 
> So long as maglite can move product at satisfactory volumes with satisfactory profit margin, they're not going to do anything radically different; with their high fixed costs due to heavy automation, they probably can't afford to change too radically.


But at what point do you cross the line that you are no longer making satisfactory volumes or profit margin?

Companies that don't evolve generally go bankrupt, as they leave it too late to adapt, or just don't at all.

BTW - I'd have thought mass automation would make it ideal to introduce changes quickly and easily.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 5, 2015)

mcnair55 said:


> No doubt let me guess they sell there own brand Alkaline batteries. I can tell you straight off any Mag lite in my collection runs just fine on Eneloop type.


But wouldn't it be nice if it ran 'better' with Eneloops?

The the Mini Mag Pro + for instance. It is regulated to step down very quickly, I suspect mostly due to the batteries.

If you use NiMh you see no performance gain in regulation. This is a shame. As NiMh could offer far superior performance.







For me this is a purposely engineered compromised design. And one that makes me not want to buy one, in fact I don't.

If it had better NiMh performance, then I would own one.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 5, 2015)

mcnair55 said:


> A lot of these companies are heavily involved in making own label,supplying various trades and defence contracts.Many services will have lights made to a spec.Hobby lights have very high mark ups due to low volumes and non hobby buyers would not be attracted in the least.


I'm not sure this is true, not for all the other torch makers. Ok some may have defense contracts, but I can't believe they all do.

And they don't all have high markups either. You can buy a Convoy C8 with a good driver and LED for under £10-15. They have equal or better build quality than a Maglite and much higher performance.

There is no reason Maglite couldn't also makes lights like this and in the same way in addition to their current line up.


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## mcnair55 (Jan 5, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> I'm not sure this is true, not for all the other torch makers. Ok some may have defense contracts, but I can't believe they all do.
> 
> And they don't all have high markups either. You can buy a Convoy C8 with a good driver and LED for under £10-15. They have equal or better build quality than a Maglite and much higher performance.
> 
> ...





Sorry I have no idea what a Convoy C8 is apart from the name alone it sounds tat market budget which you say sells for £10-£15.The buying in price might be £3-£5 so the mark up is good.Taking an educated guess any hobby light will have approx 50% to 100% perhaps even more mark up on cost.

Defence contracts I agree will be only for certain makers who want to tender for that type of work


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 5, 2015)

mcnair55 said:


> Sorry I have no idea what a Convoy C8 is apart from the name alone it sounds tat market budget which you say sells for £10-£15.The buying in price might be £3-£5 so the mark up is good.Taking an educated guess any hobby light will have approx 50% to 100% perhaps even more mark up on cost.
> 
> Defence contracts I agree will be only for certain makers who want to tender for that type of work


If you don't know what a C8 is or who Convoy are, then I suggest to take a look. I think you'll be quite surprised. 

http://www.banggood.com/Convoy-C8-AK47-71358-8-Modes-white-light-LED-Flashlight-p-908245.html


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## nitedrive (Jan 5, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> But there is a difference between supporting alkelines and actively not supporting other batteries.
> *
> I think most Mags still say on the packet not to use rechargeable batteries - wtf!!!!!
> *
> And while I don't object to how they offer regulation, it means that if you do use NiMh you don't get the performance benefit you should. In fact you'd be better off with a direct driven light.





Chicken Drumstick said:


> But NiMh are not rare and still not "supported" or promoted by Maglite for their wider range of lights.
> 
> And yes, while there is degree of what's on the shelf in a store. But lets not forget more and more people buy online these days. So for the vast majority of the developed world, there is easy, quick access to something better than an alkaline battery.
> 
> ...


Maglite absolutely supports the use of NiMH batteries! The product manual ONLY warns against rechargeable alkalines. I challenge you to find where in the documentation the company says not to use rechargeables (other than alkalines). As for Li ion batteries, yes plenty in battery pack form. Virtually no house will have them without a protection circuit given the safety issues with the batteries. Li ions make for a great part of a battery pack but a very bad stand alone cell as we use NiCads and NiMH cells. Once you talk about built in batteries things are different. Then again Maglite has had rechargeables lights for a very long time. 



Chicken Drumstick said:


> Seriously, who here wouldn't consider a 1xAA Solitaire that would work well on NiMH or alkaline, with say 3 or 2 output modes?


I would! Really I think the 1aaa Solitaire is a great light and thanks to the beam focus it's low output reaches just as far as the 120 lumen Thrunite Ti3 I have (I also have the LED Solitaire). The down side to the Solitaire for me is the lack of a firefly mode. Still, the light has a great balance between run time and power and is very easy to use. For many I suspect it's a better trade off than the Ti3.

There are legit things to criticize the company for so why attack them for things that aren't true?


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## Treeguy (Jan 5, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> Seriously, who here wouldn't consider a 1xAA Solitaire that would work well on NiMH or alkaline, with say 3 or 2 output modes?



I'd buy it in a second. A high and a low would suffice.

The present AAA Solitaire fixed at 37 lumens for an hour and half does not blow warm air up my skirt.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 5, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> But wouldn't it be nice if it ran 'better' with Eneloops?
> 
> The the Mini Mag Pro + for instance. It is regulated to step down very quickly, I suspect mostly due to the batteries.
> 
> ...



IIRC these Mini Maglite Pro+ regulate the power to dim out over a course of 30 minutes or so, you have to shut the light off and turn it back on to go back to full power. I have one and though i hardly used the thing, it's quite an annoying feature to say the least, no option to shut it off to take advantage of the NiMH technology, but again this light was designed to run off alkalines so it's really better designed for that battery type so it increases the run time to make it seem like you were running with NiMH cells. I got the Mini Pro+ for $15 and came with a nice case which holds 2AA batteries as well so i'm not too disappointed with the light.


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## mcnair55 (Jan 5, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> If you don't know what a C8 is or who Convoy are, then I suggest to take a look. I think you'll be quite surprised.
> 
> http://www.banggood.com/Convoy-C8-AK47-71358-8-Modes-white-light-LED-Flashlight-p-908245.html



Sorry fella,not for me.


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## idleprocess (Jan 5, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> But at what point do you cross the line that you are no longer making satisfactory volumes or profit margin?
> 
> Companies that don't evolve generally go bankrupt, as they leave it too late to adapt, or just don't at all.
> 
> BTW - I'd have thought mass automation would make it ideal to introduce changes quickly and easily.



Only maglite knows when they've crossed the threshold that they need to change their ways.

I don't know the specifics of maglite's production process, but I suspect it's been narrowly tailored to fit the envelopes of their existing product line.... thus most of the new models are extensions of their existing lines.


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## ForrestChump (Jan 5, 2015)

Since no one can operate a phone . I think this thread would find this interesting. 

@ Nitedrive - With respect, Im not going to debate facts with you on this matter.

*ON THE PHONE WITH MAGLITE:*

In Regards to Maglite LED ( Not Mag-Tac ):
They *DO NOT* officially support any batteries other than Alkaline in their non factory rechargeable lights. *Nothing but Alkalines. *I enquired if it would be bad to run primary lithiums and was told some people do but It may burn out the light, the official response was reconfirmed as *NO RECHARGEABLES OR PRIMARY LITHIUMS OF ANY KIND ARE SUPPORTED OTHER THAN FACTORY RECHARGEABLE SETUPS. Alkalines only.

*In regards to the MAG-TAC: 
*CR123 Primaries only. *No rechargeables of any kind.

*I have confirmed this myself by email and phone, so I think it's safe to say the requirments in regards to battery options are very clear.*


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 5, 2015)

mcnair55 said:


> Sorry fella,not for me.


Any actual reason?


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## nitedrive (Jan 5, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Since no one can operate a phone . I think this thread would find this interesting.
> 
> @ Nitedrive - With respect, Im not going to debate facts with you on this matter.
> 
> ...



Again, it's not in the manuals. If it's official policy it should be in the manuals (ie that makes it official). If Maglite wanted you to not use NiMH why would they specifically mention rechargeable alkalines but not the far more common NiMH? Again, if this is an official policy then why are they not saying it?


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 5, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> Again, it's not in the manuals. If it's official policy it should be in the manuals (ie that makes it official). If Maglite wanted you to not use NiMH why would they specifically mention rechargeable alkalines but not the far more common NiMH? Again, if this is an official policy then why are they not saying it?



Sounds to me like they are saying it, if you call them and ask. Alkaleaks only. That way, they sell more replacement lights.


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## nitedrive (Jan 5, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Sounds to me like they are saying it, if you call them and ask. Alkaleaks only. That way, they sell more replacement lights.



Not really. In the manuals they don't say it. They are particular about not using the rechargeable alkalines but nothing about avoiding other rechargable batteries. I think the poorly worded caution against rechargeable alkalines is the reason people claim Mag says don't use them at all. 

The concern about the higher voltage of a Li primary, especially if you use them in say a 3 or more cell incandescent could be a problem but again, if it's not in the manual it's wrong to claim Mag says no. But hey, if misinformation helps people badmouth the company I guess that is what's important right?


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 5, 2015)

I distinctly remember from my very old AA minimaglite directions, it said to only use alkalines. Maybe they've changed that policy in some cryptic worded manuals now, but if their support people say "only alkalines", I'm more inclined to believe them than some obfuscated manual that may or may not say something about NiMH.


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## nitedrive (Jan 5, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I distinctly remember from my very old AA minimaglite directions, it said to only use alkalines. Maybe they've changed that policy in some cryptic worded manuals now, but if their support people say "only alkalines", I'm more inclined to believe them than some obfuscated manual that may or may not say something about NiMH.



I posted links to the current user manual for the AA LED Maglite.


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## ForrestChump (Jan 5, 2015)

@ nitedrive - I understand your position a little better now. The manuel is not gold. "Do not use rechargeable Alkalines", in my mind pretty much says that they don't really care about whats in the manual. Along with it being inaccurate, it is also out of date taking into consideration what Mag said and what you are stating is in the manuel ( I didn't / wont read it. No Lithiums no purchase so I don't really have a dog in this fight).

I started this thread with praise and will admit my tone has changed, no official support for lithium batteries is weaksauce and I am no longer interested in Mag as a company.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 6, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> Not really. In the manuals they don't say it. They are particular about not using the rechargeable alkalines but nothing about avoiding other rechargable batteries. I think the poorly worded caution against rechargeable alkalines is the reason people claim Mag says don't use them at all.
> 
> The concern about the higher voltage of a Li primary, especially if you use them in say a 3 or more cell incandescent could be a problem but again, if it's not in the manual it's wrong to claim Mag says no. But hey, if misinformation helps people badmouth the company I guess that is what's important right?


I suspect the wording may have changed over the years. That said no where does it say they DO support them. The absence of this is just as profound as saying don't use them.

And the very fact their regulation programs are specifically designed for alkaline and negate the benefits of NiMh speaks volumes for their intentions.


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## nitedrive (Jan 6, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> I suspect the wording may have changed over the years. That said no where does it say they DO support them. The absence of this is just as profound as saying don't use them.
> 
> And the very fact their regulation programs are specifically designed for alkaline and negate the benefits of NiMh speaks volumes for their intentions.


I suspect it might have. It's quite possible the incandescent lights might have bulbs that were carefully tailored to the alkaline cells but I've seen nothing like that in the LED setups. Your comment about the profile might be true but I don't think so. I suspect instead you are seeing a profile that is optimized for both runtime (as advertised) and to avoid over heating the LED. For example the CR123a powered Magtacs also have a somewhat similar profile. While the AA mini Mag LED has a profile that suggests a constant taper in output, the XL50 had a sharp drop in output that looked rather unlike an alkaline discharge profile. 

I believe the primary issue for Maglite is getting heat away from the LEDs through their pills which seem to be used in all of their lights. Since most of their stuff is targeted at consumers I'm sure they pay attention to the most common type of user replaceable battery in the market. That doesn't mean they do not want their customers to use other battery types. BTW, it also seems to me that they try to offer somewhat reasonable battery life with alkalines. Of course the big D cell lights have good battery life. It does help that they current limited them for heat reasons. But even the Solitaire has a nice combination of output and life. My Thrunite Ti3 certainly is brighter (120 lumens vs 37 claimed by each). However, the Solitaire actually can shine farther. Furthermore at full the run time is 1.5 hours vs .5. If the Solitaire had a firefly mode I would use it instead. 

Anyway, I think there are good reasons for people to wish more from Maglite (the Magtacs and XL50 shouldn't drop off in output so fast/much) but I think the claims that they don't want people to use non-alkalines are weak at best.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 6, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Since no one can operate a phone . I think this thread would find this interesting.
> 
> *ON THE PHONE WITH MAGLITE:*
> 
> ...



That doesn't really say much about whether NiMHs work in their lights, in which case they do. Mag probably can't validate it though because they would most likely have to do testing and they are not interested in doing so.


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## nitedrive (Jan 6, 2015)

Having taken a second look at some of the Maglite run profiles on LED-Resource, it looks like several of the lights are designed to work with the different output profiles of various cells. Look at the XL200. It shows clear regulation after ~15 minutes at ~50% output. It shows nearly identical runs for Li primary, NiMH and Alkaline for the first hour. After that you see the alkaline fall off with a presumed drop in voltage. That sort of regulation suggests the light would have no issues with any common cell type. It also suggests that at least in that case leakage is the concern. 

The current Mini Mag Pro shows a clear regulation profile. That profile might be based on heat or on run time, hard to tell. However, given how well it's regulated again I think it's safe to assume it's good with all battery types even if the output profile is as one claimed, tailored to the output profile of an alkaline. But that same logic doesn't seem to apply to the AAA lights which I would assume use a different circuit simply because they have to fit into a very tight package. 

If I were to get mad about anything it's that several of the lights, the XL-50 in particular, seem like they are tailored to have great initial output then drop way back to claim great run time. It provides near flat full output for perhaps 10 minutes then drops to 30% and after an hour it drops to just over 10% (ie just about end of test output). It then holds that 10% for hours. The MagTac charger does something similar and LED-R does call BS on that one. I think some level of drop is reasonable but much beyond 70% on a clearly regulated light and I think they are trying to cheat the run time spec.


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## ForrestChump (Jan 6, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> That doesn't really say much about whether NiMHs work in their lights, in which case they do. Mag probably can't validate it though because they would most likely have to do testing and they are not interested in doing so.



Agreed. NiMHs have been known to work for a long time. Im just passing along what was officially supported.


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## Stream (Jan 6, 2015)

Most stores in Sweden that have a descent selection of flashlights will also stock MagLites, but considerably fewer models these days compared to some years ago. Judging by what members from other countries have reported in this thread, the trend seems to be that MagLite is gradually losing shelf space in most brick & mortar stores. Even online the selection is dwindling. This must affect market share for MagLite. Being as big as they are, they can probably take the hit for a few years to come, but it looks like it's all downhill from here unless they change their formula. 

I don't know what it's like in the UK or the US, but here in Sweden incan. flashlights have been almost completely phased out. It's very rare to find an incan. flashlight at the store these days. Interestingly enough, one of the few exceptions would be MagLite, which still offers incan. models next to their LED models wherever Mags are sold. To me, this serves to illustrate just how far behind the times MagLite is. It's like still being analogue in a digital world. I also don't quite buy the "oh, but it's a flashlight for the masses, and not connoisseurs like us" excuse; Joe Average who simply wants a cheap light is going to pick the $2 9LED Chinese flashlight over the $20 Mag anyday. This is made even worse in markets outside the US where tariffs and seller markups put MagLites squarely in the premium segment, competing with the ubiquitous premium brand LedLenser which generally outshines MagLite products while also getting more shelf space in stores. Meanwhile, cheap brands offer lights of similar build quality and output to that of Mags at half the price. 

The way I see it, MagLite needs to choose which way they want to go: either revamp their products to make a dent in the premium segment, or outsource production to China and truly become the flashlight for the masses that Joe Average will pick up when he reluctantly parts with his hard-earned cash to buy a thing that will put out light. MagLite used to be a premium brand when there was no one else to compete with. The simplicity of their models worked for a few decades, but nowadays, they are eating the dust of both premium and cheapo brands.


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## idleprocess (Jan 6, 2015)

Stream said:


> The way I see it, MagLite needs to choose which way they want to go: either revamp their products to make a dent in the premium segment, or outsource production to China and truly become the flashlight for the masses that Joe Average will pick up when he reluctantly parts with his hard-earned cash to buy a thing that will put out light. MagLite used to be a premium brand when there was no one else to compete with. The simplicity of their models worked for a few decades, but nowadays, they are eating the dust of both premium and cheapo brands.



Don't know about your region, but classic incandescent maglites are no longer available in my region of the US. One can occasionally find a scattering of halogen C- and D- models, but otherwise they're all ground-up LED models. Looking at their revamped C/D products online, one could _good-naturedly_ accuse maglite of watching the modding scene here on CPF over the last decade and taking notes on what works and what doesn't. Perhaps they won't recover as much market share as they'd like at their current price points, but they're not certainly not standing still.


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## bdogps (Jan 6, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> Don't know about your region, but classic incandescent maglites are no longer available in my region of the US. One can occasionally find a scattering of halogen C- and D- models, but otherwise they're all ground-up LED models. Looking at their revamped C/D products online, one could _good-naturedly_ accuse maglite of watching the modding scene here on CPF over the last decade and taking notes on what works and what doesn't. Perhaps they won't recover as much market share as they'd like at their current price points, but they're not certainly not standing still.



Here in Australia, you can go to most chain hardware stores and find incan Maglites for 40 AUD. Ive seen their 3rd gen flashlights with the xm l2 cree, but they have not made their way to Australia. If you try to purchase one online they are about 50-80 AUD.


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## Stream (Jan 6, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> Don't know about your region, but classic incandescent maglites are no longer available in my region of the US. One can occasionally find a scattering of halogen C- and D- models, but otherwise they're all ground-up LED models. Looking at their revamped C/D products online, one could _good-naturedly_ accuse maglite of watching the modding scene here on CPF over the last decade and taking notes on what works and what doesn't. Perhaps they won't recover as much market share as they'd like at their current price points, but they're not certainly not standing still.



The models you will typically find here are MiniMags (LED and incan), Solitaires (I think only in LED), 2D Mags (LED and incan) and XL50s (obviously always LED). You will rarely find D cell mags bigger than 2D, probably because of the price point. Price may also be why incans are also on offer in many stores that stock Mags, as they are cheaper than the LED versions. But even the incans are beaten in value by cheaper LED lights from other brands. 

I agree that MagLite is not standing still in their development, but unfortunately I think it's a case of too little too late. The way it looks now, they are neither competitive in the premium market nor in the low-end market. I have no doubt that Mag can stick around for another decade or so, but unless they do something radical they will eventually disappear completely from the market


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## idleprocess (Jan 6, 2015)

Stream said:


> The models you will typically find here are MiniMags (LED and incan), Solitaires (I think only in LED), 2D Mags (LED and incan) and XL50s (obviously always LED). You will rarely find D cell mags bigger than 2D, probably because of the price point. Price may also be why incans are also on offer in many stores that stock Mags, as they are cheaper than the LED versions. But even the incans are beaten in value by cheaper LED lights from other brands.
> 
> I agree that MagLite is not standing still in their development, but unfortunately I think it's a case of too little too late. The way it looks now, they are neither competitive in the premium market nor in the low-end market. I have no doubt that Mag can stick around for another decade or so, but unless they do something radical they will eventually disappear completely from the market


They won't need the 4+ cell lights at all in the future since you can get so much LED runtime from 2-3 C/D cells. The number of _lumen-hours_ must be orders of magnitude better than incandescent sporting 2-3x as many cells.

In order to recapture market share with their new product line it may be as simple as getting their price closer to the point their incandescent line occupied for so long. They've got mass market name recognition like no other brand when it comes to flashlights (at least in the US) and an established distribution infrastructure ... wouldn't bet against them at least holding onto their existing market share.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 7, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> Don't know about your region, but classic incandescent maglites are no longer available in my region of the US. One can occasionally find a scattering of halogen C- and D- models, but otherwise they're all ground-up LED models. Looking at their revamped C/D products online, one could _good-naturedly_ accuse maglite of watching the modding scene here on CPF over the last decade and taking notes on what works and what doesn't. Perhaps they won't recover as much market share as they'd like at their current price points, but they're not certainly not standing still.


I think in the USA Mag probably still have a better standing. But in the UK and I'm guessing other parts of Europe, they simply don't have the shelf space they used too. And I've only seen Mag LEDS on the shelf from one shop, all other places sell the incan D series pretty much. And that's if you can find them.

Re: pricing and a product for the masses. Again this isn't true in the UK.

To put it in perspective, Tesco (a large supermarket chain) sell their own CREE 2D aluminium torch. Which actually isn't bad. Not as nice quality as a Maglite D cell, but it costs under £15 and you can find it on the shelf.

Other hardward (brick and mortar) stores carry other similar priced LED torches. Again not as nice as Mags, but well priced.

An incan Mag might be priced up at £20-30. Why on Earth would even the uninitiated opt for a torch costing twice as much, when even they can see it's not as bright as the budget offerings.

LED Mags are f'ing pricey if you do find them. EagleTac sort of money.


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## Stream (Jan 7, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> In order to recapture market share with their new product line it may be as simple as getting their price closer to the point their incandescent line occupied for so long. They've got mass market name recognition like no other brand when it comes to flashlights (at least in the US) and an established distribution infrastructure ... wouldn't bet against them at least holding onto their existing market share.



They're already losing their existing market share. And the price of their incandescent lights are already too high in foreign markets. Realistically, I think there's a good chance Mags will be almost completely gone from the market outside the US in a few years time. Domestically, however, I think they have a better chance of recovering or maintaining their existing market share. However, as you say, this could require that they bring the price point of their LED line closer to their incan line. The question, though, is whether they can do this without outsourcing production to China.


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## Stream (Jan 7, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> Re: pricing and a product for the masses. Again this isn't true in the UK.
> 
> To put it in perspective, Tesco (a large supermarket chain) sell their own CREE 2D aluminium torch. Which actually isn't bad. Not as nice quality as a Maglite D cell, but it costs under £15 and you can find it on the shelf.
> 
> ...



Here in Sweden you will also find lots of cheap CREE lights for half the price of the big incan Mags, and some of them even outperform the Mag LED lights. So there isn't much persuading buyers to fork out for any MagLite product these days. 

Having said that, I will be sad to see Mag go. Even though they have become largely irrelevant and overpriced, Mag was still my first encounter with a quality flashlight--everything prior had been disposable plastic lights. A black 2xAA MiniMag is what got me into flashlights. The beam was weak and yellow, but it was still the most awesome light I had owned. I suspect that Mag is what got many other flashaholics started on their hobby, not to mention all the mod potential. For that reason MagLite will always have a special place in many flashaholics hearts.

By the way, I had chicken drumsticks yesterday and they were delicious lol


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 7, 2015)

Stream said:


> The question, though, is whether they can do this without outsourcing production to China.



Keeping manufacturing in the US certainly isn't about quality. Every LED Maglite I have owned has been crap compared to almost every "made in China" light I have (even the cheap ones). I would take a "made in China" light from one of the well-known quality brands recommended on cpf, over a "made in USA" Maglite, any day!

Manufacturing in the US is about a false notion that "buying American" is somehow a good thing for the economy. It isn't. Free trade is what is good for the economy. Buy from where you get the best value for your dollar, wherever that is. In exchange, that country now has US dollars which it has to spend on goods purchased from the US. It buys US goods or services which are produced from the most efficient companies offering the best value.

Free trade not only gets consumers more value for their money, but it also encourages local businesses to become more productive. It's a win-win.

"Buy local" just rips off consumers and encourages businesses to be lazy. It has never worked in the history of civilization.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 7, 2015)

I just got their ML300L light. Needless to say i'm pretty conflicted. I'll first start with the negatives of the light..

The head does not screw off like most Maglites do.
The multimode is quite a bit of a headache, had they manage to get the head to come off they could have added a switch in there and made the whole process easier.
While i am tempted to try out lithiums, there's always the chance i could fry the light. Li-ions would really be more ideal for that kind of light so you can get full power mode, as full power not 80%, 60%.. it's like they are trying to build a light that was designed for li-ion batteries but instead change it so it only works well on alkalines. It really makes no sense considering you could be tapping into the full benefit of the light using li-ions but unfortunately these flashlights still depend on alkalines.

Pretty much the only redeeming part of this flashlight is the long run times on lower modes and even beats the regular LED maglite on full run time. The light is bright but i don't think it really reaches 625 lumens. Their 140 lumen light is only half the brightness of the ML300L, or maybe i need to refresh my Eneloops or just get real D NiMH cells but the flashlight should be around 4x brighter and it doesn't look like it to me. It lights up my living room but based on the lumens, i would assume there would be no to little darkness due to the light reflection.

Bottom line is, Mag is lagging behind the rest of the flashlight market. They won't take advantage of the li-ion technology and now i think they are exaggerating on their lumen levels. Funny thing is the AAA 9 lumen bulb Minimag outperforms some of the cheap lights, at least incandescent lights and some cheap LED lights. As i said the only redeeming feature of the light is the long battery life so it wasn't like i was wasting my money on it, but if you're looking for light performance, i find it pretty weak. But i guess to the average Joe hillbilly, "Dat darn Maglite is suure bright as the sun". And i found it to be pretty bright but it looks more like 320 lumens, i'm still kinda new to the whole lumen thing but i know 625 lumens should be a whole heck of a lot brighter than 140lumens.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 7, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> While i am tempted to try out lithiums, there's always the chance i could fry the light. Li-ions would really be more ideal for that kind of light so you can get full power mode, as full power not 80%, 60%.. it's like they are trying to build a light that was designed for li-ion batteries but instead change it so it only works well on alkalines. It really makes no sense considering you could be tapping into the full benefit of the light using li-ions but unfortunately these flashlights still depend on alkalines.



I suspect that have heat-sinking problems. They likely design their lights to use alkalines, so they don't overheat the LED and fry it. Other manufacturers have designed their heat-sinks with high power in mind, but Maglite probably is still using the same design they used when LEDs were only 50 lumens.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 7, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I suspect that have heat-sinking problems. They likely design their lights to use alkalines, so they don't overheat the LED and fry it. Other manufacturers have designed their heat-sinks with high power in mind, but Maglite probably is still using the same design they used when LEDs were only 50 lumens.



Ah so it's not the high voltages overloading the LED, it's more so likely that the heat sinks are not adequate enough?


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## nitedrive (Jan 7, 2015)

I wouldn't worry about trying 1.5V Li primaries should be fine since this is a regulated light. Li-ion would be another mater since that would way exceed the ~4.5V nominal the light is expecting. I suspect the lack of a rotating head is, as was mentioned, dealing with heat sinking. The moving bulb tower of the traditional Maglites, even the later LED ones, has got to make heat sinking rather difficult. Sadly, I suspect this new light will regulate down the output after 15 minutes or so. It will help the battery life but I think it's kind of cheating when they clearly cut power down to exhance run time (XL50). I get a tapered drop like the incandescent bulbs and the AAA lights. The drop to 11% then hold seems like an uncool way to claim a long run time.


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## idleprocess (Jan 7, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> I think in the USA Mag probably still have a better standing. But in the UK and I'm guessing other parts of Europe, they simply don't have the shelf space they used too. And I've only seen Mag LEDS on the shelf from one shop, all other places sell the incan D series pretty much. And that's if you can find them.
> 
> Re: pricing and a product for the masses. Again this isn't true in the UK.
> 
> ...





Stream said:


> They're already losing their existing market share. And the price of their incandescent lights are already too high in foreign markets. Realistically, I think there's a good chance Mags will be almost completely gone from the market outside the US in a few years time. Domestically, however, I think they have a better chance of recovering or maintaining their existing market share. However, as you say, this could require that they bring the price point of their LED line closer to their incan line. The question, though, is whether they can do this without outsourcing production to China.



Obviously, I can't say anything about the state of affairs in Europe, not having perused store shelves there anytime ever.

In the US, I can walk into a discount big-box retailer, hardware store, home improvement center, or sporting goods store and expect to see maglite on their shelves. So long as they can maintain that kind of presence and the associated distribution channels, they're going to be able to introduce new product - especially when said product is basically a LED version of what it's replacing.

Although reading other posts, I gather that they need to make some rapid design changes in addition to finding a sustainable price point if they're going to make it.



WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Keeping manufacturing in the US certainly isn't about quality. Every LED Maglite I have owned has been crap compared to almost every "made in China" light I have (even the cheap ones). I would take a "made in China" light from one of the well-known quality brands recommended on cpf, over a "made in USA" Maglite, any day!
> 
> Manufacturing in the US is about a false notion that "buying American" is somehow a good thing for the economy. It isn't. Free trade is what is good for the economy. Buy from where you get the best value for your dollar, wherever that is. In exchange, that country now has US dollars which it has to spend on goods purchased from the US. It buys US goods or services which are produced from the most efficient companies offering the best value.


No, it's not about quality since "made in the USA" is more often than not a marketing thing in the face of equivalent-or-better quality products from overseas for decades. But it's a marketing thing _that matters_ to a slice of the populace that I believe maglite counts as their core demographic. Would not be surprised if that same demographic also goes out of their way to buy made-in-the-USA Craftsman or Snap-On tools, domestic automobile brands _(where the "North American" components/assembly percentage is highly variable)_, etc. I suspect that it would greatly hurt maglite's brand image to outsource production overseas.


----------



## chadvone (Jan 7, 2015)

I think there doing fine.


----------



## idleprocess (Jan 7, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> The head does not screw off like most Maglites do.
> [...]
> The light is bright but i don't think it really reaches 625 lumens. Their 140 lumen light is only half the brightness of the ML300L, or maybe i need to refresh my Eneloops or just get real D NiMH cells but the flashlight should be around 4x brighter and it doesn't look like it to me. It lights up my living room but based on the lumens, i would assume there would be no to little darkness due to the light reflection.
> [...]
> ...


Their literature is pretty clear that one is not to remove the head on their newer products.

Our perception of light intensity is not linear, it's logarithmic. Doubling the intensity (or lumens) is not perceived as twice the brightness; quadrupling the intensity will appear roughly twice as bright. I have a Fenix PD35 that jumps from ~450 to ~900 lumens and the bump in output is noticeable, but clearly an incremental change.

625 lumens is more than a 40W incandescent would put out (~500 lumens), but less than what a 60W puts out (~850 lumens). Concentrated into a beam then bounced off the ceiling, a flashlight will not illuminate as well as a light bulb in an area-lighting fixture putting out similar lumens. If your sense is that high mode is only about double the low mode, that's about right.

I doubt that mag-lite's customers are interested in either proprietary integrated li-ion cells nor the ~$10-$20 a pop 18650/26650 cells that us _hobbyists_ use - at our own risk given the lack of clear standards and their somewhat volatile nature.


----------



## leon2245 (Jan 7, 2015)

> maglite missing some obvious tricks?



Probaby, but if mine did any more tricks, it wouldn't be as desirable for me any more. Wish joe six pack could just enjoy his manufacturers for the uninformed masses in peace. I've even had a half dozen surefires, then customs, high cri's, super HO's, LLL's etc. and the overall user satisfaction I still get from the latest minimaglite remains unmatched. Not everything has to be everything, and cheap lights these days already do too much of what I want for the money to justify anything more enthusiast than that anymore. Guess I'm no longer a true flashoholic, just can't stop checking in for no good reason.


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## maglite mike (Jan 7, 2015)

A Lot of Maglite bashing and mis information in this thread. Some of you would take a cheap Chinese light over a Maglite? Really? How cheap are we talking? Now Maglite is lying about the lumen out put? Ever hear of ANSI? Some of you really think Maglite is going out of business? Last I checked they are a billion dollar company and extremely profitable. Unfortunately for many of you, They aren't going anywhere in our life time. Now that's a fact.


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## thedoc007 (Jan 8, 2015)

maglite mike said:


> Last I checked they are a billion dollar company and extremely profitable.



How did you come by this information? Since it is a privately held company, my quick search yielded no significant financial information.


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## bdogps (Jan 8, 2015)

thedoc007 said:


> How did you come by this information? Since it is a privately held company, my quick search yielded no significant financial information.



http://elitedaily.com/money/entrepreneurship/billion-dollar-industries-started-garages/

It more like 400 million. Another stated more like 770 million. Interesting article of Maglite:
http://m.pe.com/articles/made-647733-company-maglica.html

Another lengthy article about Maglica and the family feud:
http://articles.latimes.com/2002/aug/13/local/me-light13


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 8, 2015)

maglite mike said:


> A Lot of Maglite bashing and mis information in this thread.


I don't think there has really been any bashing, can you point out anything specific?



maglite mike said:


> Some of you would take a cheap Chinese light over a Maglite? Really? How cheap are we talking?


There are loads of great quality budget lights these days. And that's part of the point.

In my part of the world LED Mags are expensive, e.g.

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/maglite-minimag-xl50-led-torch-p263306

An old gen XL50 with a retail price of £45 (ok you can get them for about £40 other places, ignore the discount price on this site, as it isn't as easy to buy it at the price as you think).

£45 is approx $71 USD

To put this in perspective an EagleTac D25LC2 Clicky XP-G2 is only £42 in the UK:
http://www.ledfiretorches.co.uk/eagletac-d25lc2-xpg2


I love Mags, but the XL50 seriously is not even close to the EagleTac and should be at least half the price or lower.


As for Chinese lights. Well and Olight or Thrunite can be had for the same or less than an XL50 in the UK. So even 'premium' grade Chinese lights are cheaper.

But things like XinTD's and Convoy's are fantastic bits of kit for only a fraction of the price.

The Convoy M1 and M2 are sub £20 lights and have HAIII anodising, superb machining, quality LEDs in a choice or bins and tints. A good driver with a choice of modes, regulation and high output. 800 lumens +

http://www.banggood.com/Convoy-M2-71358-2-Groups-35-Modes-White-light-LED-Flashlight-p-909341.html









maglite mike said:


> Now Maglite is lying about the lumen out put? Ever hear of ANSI?


I don't think they are lying about output, but their regulation tactics means it may well only be regulated just long enough to get the ANSI rating, before massively dropping in output.









maglite mike said:


> Some of you really think Maglite is going out of business? Last I checked they are a billion dollar company and extremely profitable. Unfortunately for many of you, They aren't going anywhere in our life time. Now that's a fact.


----------



## Treeguy (Jan 8, 2015)

Has anyone got a link to a review of the new D cell Maglites?

I haven't been able to find a review yet.


----------



## bdogps (Jan 8, 2015)

Treeguy said:


> Has anyone got a link to a review of the new D cell Maglites?
> 
> I haven't been able to find a review yet.



There is a video review by oldlumens, I hope it helps.
http://youtu.be/Fn0DMku2RZo


----------



## thedoc007 (Jan 8, 2015)

bdogps said:


> http://m.pe.com/articles/made-647733-company-maglica.html



Yeah, this article says Maglite has to sell $100 million per year to break even. And if the statement from the owner is correct, they are not making even that, and have lost $20 million over the last few years. Billion dollar company who is guaranteed to be around for our lifetimes? I don't think either part of that claim can be assured at all...


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## leon2245 (Jan 8, 2015)

maglite mike said:


> A Lot of Maglite bashing and mis information in this thread. Some of you would take a cheap Chinese light over a Maglite? Really? How cheap are we talking? Now Maglite is lying about the lumen out put? Ever hear of ANSI? Some of you really think Maglite is going out of business? *Last I checked they are a billion dollar company and extremely profitable*. Unfortunately for many of you, They aren't going anywhere in our life time. Now that's a fact.



[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Within every type of enthusiast community, there's always that one too popular manufacturer that's hated because how well known it is for the perceived quality/value, something about the company, stores it's sold in, unenlightened customers etc. whatever reasons, they just don't want you liking them. But it doesn't[/FONT] help matters when we make factually inaccurate claims- that's only going to fuel their anger man. Still I agree your username should be safe for a while


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 8, 2015)

bdogps said:


> Another lengthy article about Maglica and the family feud:
> http://articles.latimes.com/2002/aug/13/local/me-light13



He seems like quite a jerk. His sons went off to start their own company and hopefully innovate a bit, and rather than praise them for their entrepreneurial spirit, he sues them? I guess he'd rather his sons sit around and do nothing, while he hands them the keys to a decaying Maglite company.

With an attitude like that, it's no wonder why Maglite stopped innovating 20 years ago.


----------



## nitedrive (Jan 8, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> He seems like quite a jerk. His sons went off to start their own company and hopefully innovate a bit, and rather than praise them for their entrepreneurial spirit, he sues them? I guess he'd rather his sons sit around and do nothing, while he hands them the keys to a decaying Maglite company.
> 
> With an attitude like that, it's no wonder why Maglite stopped innovating 20 years ago.



It's really to think that but without knowing behind the scenes information you have no way to know if that is true. Think about this, those guys worked inside of Mag Industries. That means much of their knowledge and the people they know in the business ARE from the old company. That makes it very dicey legally. Having looked at and dealt with enough IP type law it's never as simple as it seems. Yes, you could be right but that could also be the reporter's spin on a far more complex situation. It's like I mentioned earlier in the thread with Mag and Bose suing small companies. There is a very good reason for them to do so and it's not because they are worried about the small fish.


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Jan 8, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> Their literature is pretty clear that one is not to remove the head on their newer products.
> 
> Our perception of light intensity is not linear, it's logarithmic. Doubling the intensity (or lumens) is not perceived as twice the brightness; quadrupling the intensity will appear roughly twice as bright. I have a Fenix PD35 that jumps from ~450 to ~900 lumens and the bump in output is noticeable, but clearly an incremental change.
> 
> ...






Chicken Drumstick said:


> I don't think there has really been any bashing, can you point out anything specific?
> 
> I don't think they are lying about output, but their regulation tactics means it may well only be regulated just long enough to get the ANSI rating, before massively dropping in output.





maglite mike said:


> A Lot of Maglite bashing and mis information in this thread. Some of you would take a cheap Chinese light over a Maglite? Really? How cheap are we talking? Now Maglite is lying about the lumen out put? Ever hear of ANSI? Some of you really think Maglite is going out of business? Last I checked they are a billion dollar company and extremely profitable. Unfortunately for many of you, They aren't going anywhere in our life time. Now that's a fact.



I don't think anyone is really Maglite bashing, the lumen output doesn't really make sense and considering in this graph quoted above the relative brightness shoots down right away making Maglites only producing 60-50% of their actual potential power. Essentially you're buying a light which was designed for alkalines in which case only operates half of what the light was designed for.

As for the lumen difference Idleprocess, that would make sense but according to the chart i quoted the brightness level is automatically reduced to about 50-60%. It might be to keep the light going longer on alkalines but you're losing the potential of the brightness of the light li-ion flashlights are capable of. It might be for the average Joe who has no interest in experimenting with other batteries but it doesn't address the idea of being able to tap into that unused power. Again Mag could give those people that option but they won't because it's not directing towards flashaholics? There's really no harm in giving people an alkaline flashlight that could run on li-ion batteries to give it the full light potential for those interested but i guess i'm not seeing the point :candle:.


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 8, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> It's really to think that but without knowing behind the scenes information you have no way to know if that is true. Think about this, those guys worked inside of Mag Industries. That means much of their knowledge and the people they know in the business ARE from the old company. That makes it very dicey legally.



I get the lawsuit. But I don't get the ethics of suing his own sons. Presumably, he wanted them to stay at Maglite and hand them the keys when he dies/retires. But instead they left to start their own company, so I presume he's just upset that they won't do everything their old man tells them to do, and he can't control them. Sounds like pure ego.

What's the point in wasting the family money on lawyers, when the plan was to give it all to his sons anyway?

As an aside, I think nepotism is a horrible way to run a company. His sons leaving Maglite is probably the best thing. Perhaps Maglite will turn itself around after he dies or retires, and fresh blood starts running things.


----------



## nitedrive (Jan 8, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> I don't think anyone is really Maglite bashing, the lumen output doesn't really make sense and considering in this graph quoted above the relative brightness shoots down right away making Maglites only producing 60-50% of their actual potential power. Essentially you're buying a light which was designed for alkalines in which case only operates half of what the light was designed for.
> 
> As for the lumen difference Idleprocess, that would make sense but according to the chart i quoted the brightness level is automatically reduced to about 50-60%. It might be to keep the light going longer on alkalines but you're losing the potential of the brightness of the light li-ion flashlights are capable of. It might be for the average Joe who has no interest in experimenting with other batteries but it doesn't address the idea of being able to tap into that unused power. Again Mag could give those people that option but they won't because it's not directing towards flashaholics? There's really no harm in giving people an alkaline flashlight that could run on li-ion batteries to give it the full light potential for those interested but i guess i'm not seeing the point :candle:.



With the run you quote remember that is the D cell light with the moving LED pill (moves for focus). I think the issue is heat rejection initially. I'm not sure about the 50%-40% drop but the 100 to 50% drop is almost certainly thermal management.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 8, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> With the run you quote remember that is the D cell light with the moving LED pill (moves for focus). I think the issue is heat rejection initially. I'm not sure about the 50%-40% drop but the 100 to 50% drop is almost certainly thermal management.


I know the Mag focusing system has been blamed for poor heat sinking in the past. But the latter gen Mag LEDs are redesigned. We get plenty of tiny AAA/10440 and AA/14500 lights which likely have less heat sinking than the D cell Mags and they manage fine.


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 8, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> I know the Mag focusing system has been blamed for poor heat sinking in the past. But the latter gen Mag LEDs are redesigned.



Did they manage to get good heat-sinking, as well as retain the focusability? So is the only reason why they step-down so much, to fool the ANSI FL1 tests?


----------



## nitedrive (Jan 8, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> I know the Mag focusing system has been blamed for poor heat sinking in the past. But the latter gen Mag LEDs are redesigned. We get plenty of tiny AAA/10440 and AA/14500 lights which likely have less heat sinking than the D cell Mags and they manage fine.



The plots on this page were from a light that still has the focus mechanism. I agree that lights such as the Xl200 don't have it (the Mini Mags and the AAA Mags still have a moving pill). I'm not going to say Mag isn't playing games for run time. It certainly seemed that way with the XL50 review!


----------



## idleprocess (Jan 8, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> As for the lumen difference Idleprocess, that would make sense but according to the chart i quoted the brightness level is automatically reduced to about 50-60%. It might be to keep the light going longer on alkalines but you're losing the potential of the brightness of the light li-ion flashlights are capable of. It might be for the average Joe who has no interest in experimenting with other batteries but it doesn't address the idea of being able to tap into that unused power. Again Mag could give those people that option but they won't because it's not directing towards flashaholics? There's really no harm in giving people an alkaline flashlight that could run on li-ion batteries to give it the full light potential for those interested but i guess i'm not seeing the point :candle:.


As others have mentioned, this seems to be a result of the drop-in LED modules that maglite has been making for years which have little heatsinking. It's also a design feature of some use for those that go immediately from a well-lit environment to darkness - the drop in lumens over a few minutes won't necessarily be missed as your eyes adapt to darkness. Naturally, it's also a problem if you need that steady max output for more than the few minutes it takes for the thermal regulation to kick in.

As far as lithium-ion cells go, I don't think there's much left to say. Short of integrating them into the light or producing a proprietary module, there's no easy path. The protected 18650's hobbyists buy from amazon, battery junction, etc aren't quite standardized consumer goods, are too expensive for the average consumer - _who has trouble coughing up for cheaper standardized NiMH cells_ - and a bit volatile to boot. Maglite will probably venture into the field only after the aforementioned problems have been thoroughly solved in the marketplace. If you really want to run li-ions, get one of the 3 cell drop-in modules and see how it handles the discharge curve of a single li-ion cell and report back.

I think you want maglite to be something *it's not and never has been* and might be better served by purchasing from another manufacturer.


----------



## ForrestChump (Jan 9, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> It's really to think that but without knowing behind the scenes information you have no way to know if that is true. Think about this, those guys worked inside of Mag Industries. That means much of their knowledge and the people they know in the business ARE from the old company. That makes it very dicey legally. Having looked at and dealt with enough IP type law it's never as simple as it seems. Yes, you could be right but that could also be the reporter's spin on a far more complex situation. It's like I mentioned earlier in the thread with Mag and Bose suing small companies. There is a very good reason for them to do so and it's not because they are worried about the small fish.



Good point, and for those interested in the other light:

Bison Light

Just found this too:http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/bison1.htm

Couldn't even run on Energizers!


----------



## bdogps (Jan 9, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I get the lawsuit. But I don't get the ethics of suing his own sons. Presumably, he wanted them to stay at Maglite and hand them the keys when he dies/retires. But instead they left to start their own company, so I presume he's just upset that they won't do everything their old man tells them to do, and he can't control them. Sounds like pure ego.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





WalkIntoTheLight said:


> He seems like quite a jerk. His sons went off to start their own company and hopefully innovate a bit, and rather than praise them for their entrepreneurial spirit, he sues them? I guess he'd rather his sons sit around and do nothing, while he hands them the keys to a decaying Maglite company.
> 
> With an attitude like that, it's no wonder why Maglite stopped innovating 20 years ago.



If you re read the article, you will read that it was his step-sons that started that torch company that failed. 

The reason for family feud was because of his then wife found out that he was going to leave his possessions and the company to his biological children. That is why his wife divorce him and got a cool 27 million from the settlement. 

Maglica is a stubborn man from the looks of it. Die hard republican, but it is great story of an immigrant making it big in the states.

His stepsons went on to create Bisons Sports torches. The funny thing in a court case, the jury could still see the "black hole" that bulbs made. So they really did not eliminate it. Luckily a company called Cree came along and changed the game.


----------



## Treeguy (Jan 9, 2015)

bdogps said:


> There is a video review by oldlumens, I hope it helps.
> http://youtu.be/Fn0DMku2RZo




Thanks!  Looking forward to seeing his runtime tests.

I love what he says at the end, _"I talked so much, I ran my mouth like a duck's butt." _


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 9, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> As others have mentioned, this seems to be a result of the drop-in LED modules that maglite has been making for years which have little heatsinking. It's also a design feature of some use for those that go immediately from a well-lit environment to darkness - the drop in lumens over a few minutes won't necessarily be missed as your eyes adapt to darkness. Naturally, it's also a problem if you need that steady max output for more than the few minutes it takes for the thermal regulation to kick in.
> 
> As far as lithium-ion cells go, I don't think there's much left to say. Short of integrating them into the light or producing a proprietary module, there's no easy path. The protected 18650's hobbyists buy from amazon, battery junction, etc aren't quite standardized consumer goods, are too expensive for the average consumer - _who has trouble coughing up for cheaper standardized NiMH cells_ - and a bit volatile to boot. Maglite will probably venture into the field only after the aforementioned problems have been thoroughly solved in the marketplace. If you really want to run li-ions, get one of the 3 cell drop-in modules and see how it handles the discharge curve of a single li-ion cell and report back.
> 
> I think you want maglite to be something *it's not and never has been* and might be better served by purchasing from another manufacturer.




If the light is regulated though, trying li-ions on at least on the 2D shown in that chart would be pointless. That would make sense, except Mag is trying to up the lumen levels on their Maglites but only for the alkaline user. I most likely have missed the point, but for those who don't know of li-ion lights but think Mag is at the top is misinformed that Mag is the leading flashlight maker. It is quite disappointing considering growing up and thinking there was no better flashlight manufacturer than Mag and seeing that they are falling behind in flashlight technology. And i definitely agree, you could get a better light from another manufacturer, provided that you would know about it. I do as well as the other members of CPF.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 9, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> If the light is regulated though, trying li-ions on at least on the 2D shown in that chart would be pointless. That would make sense, except Mag is trying to up the lumen levels on their Maglites but only for the alkaline user. I most likely have missed the point, but for those who don't know of li-ion lights but think Mag is at the top is misinformed that Mag is the leading flashlight maker. It is quite disappointing considering growing up and thinking there was no better flashlight manufacturer than Mag and seeing that they are falling behind in flashlight technology. And i definitely agree, you could get a better light from another manufacturer, provided that you would know about it. I do as well as the other members of CPF.



I still love my 4D and 4C incandescent Maglites. But they should have changed the design of their lights when they switched to LEDs, rather than just plop a LED in the same form factor as their incandescent lights. The crappy twist switch and flickering was expected in the old incandescent minimags because we were used to crappy lights from every manufacturer back then. But the same flickering is unacceptable in LED lights because the consumer has come to expect better. They should have changed the twist switch design to eliminate that flickering, as well as improved heat sinking to allow for brighter LEDs with consistent output.

I'm seeing less and less Maglite products in the hardware stores, as time goes by. The other offerings aren't much better, but they are cheaper. I think Maglite's best days are well behind it.

I don't think that good quality lights are going to show up in your typical hardware store, because the price point is too high for most of them. Joe Shmoe isn't going to pay $100 for a flashlight. But there's always going to be niche stores that sell them, and of course on-line sales are going to get more and more of the overall retail market.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 9, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I still love my 4D and 4C incandescent Maglites. But they should have changed the design of their lights when they switched to LEDs, rather than just plop a LED in the same form factor as their incandescent lights. The crappy twist switch and flickering was expected in the old incandescent minimags because we were used to crappy lights from every manufacturer back then. But the same flickering is unacceptable in LED lights because the consumer has come to expect better. They should have changed the twist switch design to eliminate that flickering, as well as improved heat sinking to allow for brighter LEDs with consistent output.
> 
> I'm seeing less and less Maglite products in the hardware stores, as time goes by. The other offerings aren't much better, but they are cheaper. I think Maglite's best days are well behind it.
> 
> I don't think that good quality lights are going to show up in your typical hardware store, because the price point is too high for most of them. Joe Shmoe isn't going to pay $100 for a flashlight. But there's always going to be niche stores that sell them, and of course on-line sales are going to get more and more of the overall retail market.



Yeah, wow i thought that flickering was due to my AA to D converters. Yeah i've been told that people are not going to be willing to pay for a good quality light but at the same time they use the same cheap format for a $70 light, a $20 2D or 2AA Mag is not a bad price, but that's about all they are worth these days. Heck, even a simple light like the Fenix E25 does better than the 2D Mags they got out there in both performance and battery life (at lower modes), not to mention it's pocket sized.


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## nitedrive (Jan 9, 2015)

bdogps said:


> There is a video review by oldlumens, I hope it helps.
> http://youtu.be/Fn0DMku2RZo



I wonder if the change in shape is in part to keep dishonest people from "buy-returning" their older Maglite for a new one. Several times I've seen returned -restocked Maglites where the person clearly returned an incandescent Maglite in the LED package. The old one doesn't fit in the new packaging making it harder to trick the store. 
Just a thought.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 9, 2015)

Was browsing youtube and found this.. LOL


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## Treeguy (Jan 9, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Was browsing youtube and found this.. LOL




:twothumbs

Fantastic!


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## leon2245 (Jan 9, 2015)

Hah that's awesome, exactly how I imagine most the anti maglite posters in these threads.

I ont care bout anyfing cept ow bright it look!


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## bdogps (Jan 9, 2015)

leon2245 said:


> Hah that's awesome, exactly how I imagine most the anti maglite posters in these threads.



I do not think anyone is being anti Maglite. I wish I could get their 3rd gen maglite, but they are not available in Australia. From what I have been reading, they want it to succeed, but they falling behind.


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## leon2245 (Jan 10, 2015)

No everyone here is definitely pro maglite, they just wish...

innit


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 10, 2015)

leon2245 said:


> Hah that's awesome, exactly how I imagine most the anti maglite posters in these threads.
> 
> I ont care bout anyfing cept ow bright it look!



Maglite produces nice lights but are specifically designed to run on alkalines, thats pretty much my only problem with them is their regulated alkaline lights don't take advantage of the NiMH or Li-ion technology. It's not marketed for them, but it would be nice to have.



bdogps said:


> I do not think anyone is being anti Maglite. I wish I could get their 3rd gen maglite, but they are not available in Australia. From what I have been reading, they want it to succeed, but they falling behind.



I wasn't that impressed by the 3rd gen/625 lumen light. It's mostly that the light is using more (and bigger) batteries than Fenix or Lenser. It's a nice light to have when you run out of AA cells and all you got are D's. Other than the form factor i don't really NEED a D cell, mostly because i haven't gotten some NiMh D cells. I at least figured out how to get the head off (or at least have an idea) so it appears the head is removable, i just have to figure out how to get it off of there without breaking the light. It's not a bad light but i don't think it's worth the $70. Might as well get a Lenser or a li-ion light with that money. Plus there are smaller lights that while may not have long run times, less batteries.. have several sets ready for the light and you could easily surpass the 117 hours the new 3D Mag has.


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## leon2245 (Jan 10, 2015)

Yeah I use NiMH anyway, not a problem for me.


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## bdogps (Jan 10, 2015)

Could it be the reason why Maglica only recommends alkaline D batteries because they made a deal with battery manufactures? They use to be or do they still supply maglite torches to police departments? That is a lot of batteries and a lot money to be made.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 10, 2015)

bdogps said:


> Could it be the reason why Maglica only recommends alkaline D batteries because they made a deal with battery manufactures? They use to be or do they still supply maglite torches to police departments? That is a lot of batteries and a lot money to be made.



I can't imagine many modern police departments still use Maglite, unless they still have some of those 4xD or 6xD Mag's they use as clubs. The cops I've seen all carry smaller lights. They have to carry around enough crap on themselves, who wants to also lug around a big Maglite on their belt?


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## Stream (Jan 10, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Was browsing youtube and found this.. LOL




That is hilarious . I love the childlike, and clumsy enthusiasm as he shows off his toys. I think most of us should be able to remember this type of excitement when we first discovered bright flashlights. Aside from being delightful to watch, I also think this video proves a point. Most of us here would agree that this guy is a bit of a novice when it comes to flashlights, and he doesn't appear to be aware of any other quality brands besides Maglite and LedLenser. And with LedLenser fast replacing Maglite as the premium brand in shops, more and more people like him are going to relegate Maglite to their junk drawers. Unless they start to innovate, I think Maglite will eventually go the way of dial-up modems.


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## Stream (Jan 10, 2015)

maglite mike said:


> A Lot of Maglite bashing and mis information in this thread. Some of you would take a cheap Chinese light over a Maglite? Really? How cheap are we talking?



No bashing, just an honest discussion. Like I've said before, I like Maglite, but their products are just too expensive and outdated for me to justify spending my money on them. So, yes, if I'm just looking for a cheap flashlight to throw in a drawer, bag, trunk or glovebox then I will grab some Chinese CREE budget light with a perfectly adequate build quality for less than half the price of a Mag.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 10, 2015)

Stream said:


> That is hilarious . I love the childlike, and clumsy enthusiasm as he shows off his toys. I think most of us should be able to remember this type of excitement when we first discovered bright flashlights. Aside from being delightful to watch, I also think this video proves a point. Most of us here would agree that this guy is a bit of a novice when it comes to flashlights, and he doesn't appear to be aware of any other quality brands besides Maglite and LedLenser. And with LedLenser fast replacing Maglite as the premium brand in shops, more and more people like him are going to relegate Maglite to their junk drawers. Unless they start to innovate, I think Maglite will eventually go the way of dial-up modems.



It's just so funny how he puts the light up to his face, the first time looked like he was blinding himself with the little lenser (not sure what model that one was). I think he must be a spokesperson for LedLenser or he just discovered it and got hooked on to it like any other person who would go for a single brand name. LedLenser is a very good contender to deal with Mag, though after visiting their site some of those lights are pretty expensive, including that light cannon he showed at the end.. want that light but it's a bit out of my price range.




Stream said:


> No bashing, just an honest discussion. Like I've said before, I like Maglite, but their products are just too expensive and outdated for me to justify spending my money on them. So, yes, if I'm just looking for a cheap flashlight to throw in a drawer, bag, trunk or glovebox then I will grab some Chinese CREE budget light with a perfectly adequate build quality for less than half the price of a Mag.



And this was my problem with the ML300L light that i bought, it seemed like it was an overpriced light that is only worth $30-40 (basic 2D Mags $20). I might be underpricing the ML300L but considering it's twice the light power and it's extra functions.. it's a light worth $40 but i wouldn't go any higher considering the bulky size. The smaller lights like the LedLensers are a bit more in the range and it's nice Amazon has a few of them at a discounted price.


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## renegade (Jan 10, 2015)

I started with Maglite and still have several, but I have generally gone to higher performance and models that use Li-ion or 123a batteries due to higher or longer output, or more compact form. I also believe that Mag is behind the curve on tech and that if they don't wake up, they will be a forever dwindling company.


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## nitedrive (Jan 10, 2015)

Personally I would rather stick with lights that use traditional battery types. That means alkalines or NiMH equivalents. I do have a MagTac (got a great deal) and ended up spending $25 to get the rechargeable CR123a cells and charger. Having worked with Li-ion cells in a professional capacity I will not use them without protection circuits. I do have a Li-ion Black and Decker LED spotlight. It's pretty cool and quite powerful. Most of the time I am quite happy using common, rechargeable cell types. Li-ions are great but I'm not sure how much I trust the ones that are designed to be used like a big AA rechargeable. Anyway, at the price point I'm willing to spend for a light I've found great deals on Maglites so I have a few (Solitaire LED, XL50, XL200, MagTac, 2nd gen 2D). I'm sure there are other good lights but really the XL200 is quite nice if you have a supply of NiMH batteries (and I do). I also really like the Solitaire as a single power AAA light. I think it's the perfect compromise for a single level light hence I'm happy to suggest them to others. For myself I carry a Thrunite Ti3 mostly because I do like the firefly mode quite a bit. 

Anyway, for many people the use of something other than batteries that we can, if we want, get at Target is a bad thing.


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## Stream (Jan 10, 2015)

leon2245 said:


> Probaby, but if mine did any more tricks, it wouldn't be as desirable for me any more. Wish joe six pack could just enjoy his manufacturers for the uninformed masses in peace. I've even had a half dozen surefires, then customs, high cri's, super HO's, LLL's etc. and the overall user satisfaction I still get from the latest minimaglite remains unmatched. Not everything has to be everything, and cheap lights these days already do too much of what I want for the money to justify anything more enthusiast than that anymore. Guess I'm no longer a true flashoholic, just can't stop checking in for no good reason.



A Minimag was the first quality light I ever owned. I still have it, and I've upgraded it to LED, but I never use it. I keep it for sentimental reasons, but there is just no way it can compete with the convenience, versatility and battery life of my PD35. I like to think of myself as pragmatic when it comes to flashlights, a light has fit my needs without being needlessly fancy or difficult to use. The Mag XL50 is what I would deem a needlessly fancy and complicated light that does too many tricks. If you're going to have multiple levels, and strobe, then you may as well go all out and design a well thought out light like the PD35 that has two switches: one for on-and-off, and one for mode selection. I hate one switch lights with multiple levels, they are often a hassle to use. In my opinion, the XL50 should have been a one mode light, or a two mode light where you loosen or tighten the bezel for low or high. And it should have been at least half the price it is now; that way it could have actually been a light for Joe Sixpack. 

The problem is that Maglite is not a light for the uninformed masses, nor is it a light for the more informed consumer. It's neither here, not there. Maglite needs to figure out which demographic to target, and then go for it! Either make a light for Joe Sixpack and lower the price point to compete with cheap Chinese flashlights, or make a run at the premium segment and develop products that will give LedLenser a run for it's money. Anthony Maglica may be a stubborn old man, but he needs to keep up with the times or continue to get left behind.


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## Stream (Jan 10, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> It's just so funny how he puts the light up to his face, the first time looked like he was blinding himself with the little lenser (not sure what model that one was). I think he must be a spokesperson for LedLenser or he just discovered it and got hooked on to it like any other person who would go for a single brand name. LedLenser is a very good contender to deal with Mag, though after visiting their site some of those lights are pretty expensive, including that light cannon he showed at the end.. want that light but it's a bit out of my price range.



I thought of that too, but I clicked through to Youtube to look at the video and there were no links to a store nor any mention in his video of where to buy them. In my experience, anyone promoting products on Youtube either has their own store or will at least tip you on where to buy, usually with affiliate links in their video description. From the looks of it, this guy is just an overenthusiastic 4x4 offroading hobbyist who has discovered (and overspent lol) on bright flashlights. The big light he holds up at the end looks like it is either an X21.2 or an X21R.2, in which case we are talking between 1500 and 3000 lumens--by no means "stupifyingly" bright (as he put it) compared to what else is out there. And, yes, it's funny how he just holds it up to his face, as if that will tell us anything. Even people commenting on Youtube said he should have pointed the lights at the treeline some 30m or so out so we could get a real sense of how much they light up. All we can see in the video is his face disappearing in a white light no matter which flashlight he uses lol 





MidnightDistortions said:


> And this was my problem with the ML300L light that i bought, it seemed like it was an overpriced light that is only worth $30-40 (basic 2D Mags $20). I might be underpricing the ML300L but considering it's twice the light power and it's extra functions.. it's a light worth $40 but i wouldn't go any higher considering the bulky size. The smaller lights like the LedLensers are a bit more in the range and it's nice Amazon has a few of them at a discounted price.



I agree, Mag needs to bring down their prices. Either that or make a true premium product line that can compete with LedLenser.


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## nitedrive (Jan 10, 2015)

I'm looking at a few random reviews on LED Resources's site. It seems that Maglite isn't the only one with massive and quick drops in output. 

400 to 40 lumens in less than 5 minutes. Yes, 400 lumens from one CR123A is impressive but it's clear that is a trick to get a high peak number. If you use this light for anything other than a burst it's actually a 40 lumen light. 
http://www.led-resource.com/2013/04/led-lenser-f1-review/

This M7XR drops to 40% output in about 10 minutes. 
http://www.led-resource.com/2013/02/led-lenser-m7rx-rechargeable-flashlight-review/

Here is a Dorcy that really can't handle Li Primary AAs. Not that Dorcy is a good brand.
http://www.led-resource.com/2013/02/dorcy-metal-gear-xlm-41-0435-led-flashlight-review/

This Inova X2 seems far more honest. It drops over time but not too badly. However it's "only" 150 lumens
http://www.led-resource.com/2012/09/inova-x2-led-flashlight-review/

Now it's interesting that when I compare the output at 1 hours of the Inova X2 to this Maglite Mini Pro they are actually very similar. The Inova is down to about 73% on alkalines or 110 lumens. The Mag doesn't look as good because it's down to about 43%. But 43% of 245 lumens is 105. Note the X2 does better on NiMH and Li primaries. It will produce about 120 lumens on NiMHs at 1 hour. The Mag's line for all battery types seems identical, as if time, not battery voltage is the driver. Either way, I guess the lesson is that extra bright doesn't come for free. At least the Mag is brighter for most of the hour
http://www.led-resource.com/2012/02/mini-maglite-pro-and-proplus-led-flashlight-review/

The Surefires on that sight do seem to do well in the output catagory but they also fall off just as fast as the Maglites. Of course if you start out at 500-600 for the 2xCR123A then that fall off is about the same as the MagLite's ~300 lumen peak output. The Mag also falls to about 50%. However, the trade off is the Maglite does run about 2x as long. Still, if maximum output regardless of runtime is your thing the Maglite is probably not the best pick. But I don't see anything in the Mag regulation that makes me think they aren't as good as the others. Also, while the MagTac isn't cheap at ~$60-70 on Amazon, it's cheaper than the Surefires which seemed to be over $100. 

Really it seems, based on those reviews, that most of the crazy bright lights are a numbers game. They are crazy bright but only for a few minutes. If you look at the reviews from just a few years back the peak numbers are much lower but the, lacking a better term, average output vs time seemed to be about constant (ie average lumens/run time). It seems the lights are at best only marginally more efficient. The high output comes for only a short time. The long run times are through dimming the output. Looking at most of those plots I can't see any reason to think more or less of Mag vs the others especially when we consider cost and the like.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 11, 2015)

Stream said:


> I thought of that too, but I clicked through to Youtube to look at the video and there were no links to a store nor any mention in his video of where to buy them. In my experience, anyone promoting products on Youtube either has their own store or will at least tip you on where to buy, usually with affiliate links in their video description. From the looks of it, this guy is just an overenthusiastic 4x4 offroading hobbyist who has discovered (and overspent lol) on bright flashlights. The big light he holds up at the end looks like it is either an X21.2 or an X21R.2, in which case we are talking between 1500 and 3000 lumens--by no means "stupifyingly" bright (as he put it) compared to what else is out there. And, yes, it's funny how he just holds it up to his face, as if that will tell us anything. Even people commenting on Youtube said he should have pointed the lights at the treeline some 30m or so out so we could get a real sense of how much they light up. All we can see in the video is his face disappearing in a white light no matter which flashlight he uses lol
> 
> I agree, Mag needs to bring down their prices. Either that or make a true premium light that can compete with LedLenser.



It would have made more sense if he pointed the lights at the treeline, but i think he doesn't know how to show people on video and figured it was his face. You're right he's more likely just an 4x4 offroading hobbyist. Yeah LEDLensers can be overly expensive, but at least he knows of brighter lights lol.



nitedrive said:


> Personally I would rather stick with lights that use traditional battery types. That means alkalines or NiMH equivalents. I do have a MagTac (got a great deal) and ended up spending $25 to get the rechargeable CR123a cells and charger. Having worked with Li-ion cells in a professional capacity I will not use them without protection circuits. I do have a Li-ion Black and Decker LED spotlight. It's pretty cool and quite powerful. Most of the time I am quite happy using common, rechargeable cell types. Li-ions are great but I'm not sure how much I trust the ones that are designed to be used like a big AA rechargeable. Anyway, at the price point I'm willing to spend for a light I've found great deals on Maglites so I have a few (Solitaire LED, XL50, XL200, MagTac, 2nd gen 2D). I'm sure there are other good lights but really the XL200 is quite nice if you have a supply of NiMH batteries (and I do). I also really like the Solitaire as a single power AAA light. I think it's the perfect compromise for a single level light hence I'm happy to suggest them to others. For myself I carry a Thrunite Ti3 mostly because I do like the firefly mode quite a bit.
> 
> Anyway, for many people the use of something other than batteries that we can, if we want, get at Target is a bad thing.



NiMHs are my ideal choice for battery types but i do want to experiment with some Li-ions and for Mag i don't want to risk damaging the light. Again though, there's other brands out there that take advantage of NiMH and Li-ion technology. I don't have much use for alkalines though so Mags are a dying brand name for me, they certainly have some uses but i like lights that will offer advantages by using rechargeables. I don't know how well that rechargeable Mag is but i don't want to be constricted to using a 'certain rechargeable battery' that is difficult to find replacements for. Li-ions sorta fall into that department but since i buy Eneloops online it won't hurt to get Li-ions there as well.


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## Stream (Jan 12, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> NiMHs are my ideal choice for battery types but i do want to experiment with some Li-ions and for Mag i don't want to risk damaging the light. Again though, there's other brands out there that take advantage of NiMH and Li-ion technology. I don't have much use for alkalines though so Mags are a dying brand name for me, they certainly have some uses but i like lights that will offer advantages by using rechargeables. I don't know how well that rechargeable Mag is but i don't want to be constricted to using a 'certain rechargeable battery' that is difficult to find replacements for. Li-ions sorta fall into that department but since i buy Eneloops online it won't hurt to get Li-ions there as well.



I used to prefer Ni-MHs too, and I mostly used 2xAA lights. But trust me, get a pair of quality 18650 batteries, a decent double bay charger along with a quality flashlight that takes 18650s, and you will never look back. You just get so much more power and runtime from Li-Ions that you will wonder why you ever bothered with Ni-MHs. 

I recommend protected AW Li-Ion batteries. I'm sure there are other quality brands that are just as good, but I have been buying AW cells for nearly 10 years and have never had a battery fail or malfunction, so I stick to what has worked for me. They cost around $21.50 a piece for the 3400mAh versions at lighthound. For your charger, I recommend Nitecore intellicharger i4; it has four charging slots, and it can take both Li-Ions as well as your Ni-MHs. It should cost you around $20 on eBay. My favorite 1x18650 flashlight (can take 2xCR123 primaries too if you prefer) is the Fenix PD35. It's bulletproof; the feel and build quality far exceeds that of any Mag I've held, and it is right up there with other quality brands. The runtimes are also excellent, you get about 8 hours at 180 lumens. It retails for around $69.95 at fenix-store. A Nitecore EC20 is also a good option, and it is a bit cheaper: typically retailing for around $44.95 online.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 12, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> NiMHs are my ideal choice for battery types but i do want to experiment with some Li-ions and for Mag i don't want to risk damaging the light. Again though, there's other brands out there that take advantage of NiMH and Li-ion technology. I don't have much use for alkalines though so Mags are a dying brand name for me, they certainly have some uses but i like lights that will offer advantages by using rechargeables. I don't know how well that rechargeable Mag is but i don't want to be constricted to using a 'certain rechargeable battery' that is difficult to find replacements for. Li-ions sorta fall into that department but since i buy Eneloops online it won't hurt to get Li-ions there as well.


This is slightly off topic, but also highlights what you can get and do.

If you want to try Li-ion, don't be afraid, they are no more dangerous than using petrol in a car or lawn mower. It is worth reading up on them and knowing a bit about them do. Also remember the HUGE hobby of RC planes, car, helis' and boats pretty much only use LiPO (very similar to Li-ion) these days and none of them are protected.

Get yourself a good charger, lots of choice although I personally like Xtar for price and performance.

Get yourself a Digital Multi Meter such as from ebay. £5/$10 tops is all you need to start with. Main use is to check battery voltage.

I like non protected IMR/INR cells. They are a safer chemistry than ICR Li-ion and usually offer higher discharge rates. Efest 3100mAh 20A purple (find them on ebay and other places) are a good start as are genuine Samsung 25R's. The Samsungs are lower capacity, but higher performance and will allow more amp draw.
http://www.banggood.com/2PCS-INR18650-25R-2500mAh-3_6v-20A-Rechargeable-Li-ion-Battery-p-941982.html


If you are in the USA you might want to check here:
http://www.mtnelectronics.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_88&product_id=289

As for the torch, well consider something like a Convoy C8 or a XinTD C8. The XinTD is higher quality and you have more options. But the Convoy is very very nice.

Go for an XM-L2 for output.
http://www.banggood.com/Convoy-C8-AK47-71358-8-Modes-white-light-LED-Flashlight-p-908245.html


Or XP-L
http://intl-outdoor.com/xintd-c8-v5-xml2-t6u2-multioption-18650-flashlight-p-308.html


You'll be astounded by the performance, compact size, throw and runtime. So much so, that you'll probably only go back to Mags for nostalgic reasons.

Also bear in mind you could buy a good quality C8, batteries, charger and a DMM including shipping for all of these, for less money than a modern current LED Maglite that offers less performance.


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## bdogps (Jan 12, 2015)

Thanks for the info chicken drumstick. I like you better when you are deep fried mate.


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## nitedrive (Jan 12, 2015)

Stream said:


> I used to prefer Ni-MHs too, and I mostly used 2xAA lights. But trust me, get a pair of quality 18650 batteries, a decent double bay charger along with a quality flashlight that takes 18650s, and you will never look back. You just get so much more power and runtime from Li-Ions that you will wonder why you ever bothered with Ni-MHs.
> 
> I recommend protected AW Li-Ion batteries. I'm sure there are other quality brands that are just as good, but I have been buying AW cells for nearly 10 years and have never had a battery fail or malfunction, so I stick to what has worked for me. They cost around $21.50 a piece for the 3400mAh versions at lighthound. For your charger, I recommend Nitecore intellicharger i4; it has four charging slots, and it can take both Li-Ions as well as your Ni-MHs. It should cost you around $20 on eBay. My favorite 1x18650 flashlight (can take 2xCR123 primaries too if you prefer) is the Fenix PD35. It's bulletproof; the feel and build quality far exceeds that of any Mag I've held, and it is right up there with other quality brands. The runtimes are also excellent, you get about 8 hours at 180 lumens. It retails for around $69.95 at fenix-store. A Nitecore EC20 is also a good option, and it is a bit cheaper: typically retailing for around $44.95 online.



I can see an advantage to an 18650 cell but I would never recommend an unprotected cell to anyone who doesn't REALLY know what they are doing. However, you did mention looking at protected cells. 
Now that said, I'm not sure I see how the Fenix is really any better than the MagTac other than allowing the use of 18650 cells (never tried one in the MagTac). Consider these two reviews:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-2xCR123A-RCR)-Review-BEAMSHOTS-RUNTIME-VIDEO
http://www.led-resource.com/2012/10/maglite-mag-tac-led-flashlight-review/
Especially look at the run time vs output graphs. I guess you get that really high output for less than a minute or something. After that the output drops and in no time the Maglite is actually brighter. If you look at the graphs the Magtac using CR123's is brighter basically until you get to 3.5 hours. It appears the boost mode is so short as to not show on the graph. Of course there is a big advantage to being able to use a rechargeable vs primary cell. The two lights have similar beam intensities but it's not clear if the Fenix's value is based on the really high boost mode or something less than that. If it's based on the boost mode then we can assume it's a more flood type light. I would actually like the Magtac to be a bit more spot than it currently is. 

The Fenix looks well built but I can't complain about the same for the MagTac. Certainly the Fenix isn't putting out 180 lumens for 4 hours. The plot shows that it drops to 160 in 5 minutes then to 90 after 40 minutes. The more I look at the run time graphs the more I don't believe the max output+long run time hype of many lights (Mag is not innocent here). Aside from (to the best of my knowledge) not working with 18650 cells I'm not really seeing how the Magtac is inferior. Different design choices yes, but not inferior.


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## thinkFlashlights01 (Jan 12, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> I can see an advantage to an 18650 cell but I would never recommend an unprotected cell to anyone who doesn't REALLY know what they are doing. However, you did mention looking at protected cells.
> Now that said, I'm not sure I see how the Fenix is really any better than the MagTac other than allowing the use of 18650 cells (never tried one in the MagTac). Consider these two reviews:
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-2xCR123A-RCR)-Review-BEAMSHOTS-RUNTIME-VIDEO
> http://www.led-resource.com/2012/10/maglite-mag-tac-led-flashlight-review/
> ...



This is getting so off topic! :tired:


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## nitedrive (Jan 12, 2015)

thinkFlashlights01 said:


> This is getting so off topic! :tired:



Not really. This is a thread about Maglites. People are saying Mag is behind the competition. I'm showing that, in my opinion and in this case the reviews don't seem to support this idea.

It's the same reason why I posted all the reviews a few posts up. I'm just not seeing this failure to keep up with the competition that others are talking about.


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## thedoc007 (Jan 12, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-2xCR123A-RCR)-Review-BEAMSHOTS-RUNTIME-VIDEO
> http://www.led-resource.com/2012/10/maglite-mag-tac-led-flashlight-review/
> Especially look at the run time vs output graphs. I guess you get that really high output for less than a minute or something. After that the output drops and in no time the Maglite is actually brighter. If you look at the graphs the Magtac using CR123's is brighter basically until you get to 3.5 hours. It appears the boost mode is so short as to not show on the graph. Of course there is a big advantage to being able to use a rechargeable vs primary cell. The two lights have similar beam intensities but it's not clear if the Fenix's value is based on the really high boost mode or something less than that. If it's based on the boost mode then we can assume it's a more flood type light. I would actually like the Magtac to be a bit more spot than it currently is.
> 
> The Fenix looks well built but I can't complain about the same for the MagTac. Certainly the Fenix isn't putting out 180 lumens for 4 hours. The plot shows that it drops to 160 in 5 minutes then to 90 after 40 minutes. The more I look at the run time graphs the more I don't believe the max output+long run time hype of many lights (Mag is not innocent here). Aside from (to the best of my knowledge) not working with 18650 cells I'm not really seeing how the Magtac is inferior. Different design choices yes, but not inferior.



YOU need to read the graphs again. The scale on the Y axis is not lumens...it is RELATIVE output. So if it starts at 900 lumens (260 on selfbuilt's scale), and drops to 80 on his scale, it is still doing about 275 lumens. And it continues to do that for over 4 hours. And that is with a start on turbo...if you turned in on in medium, it would be that much longer. And even more, that is with a 2200 mAh cell. If you use a 3400 mAh cell, you will EASILY get eight hours at 180 lumens. If you are going to use a graph to prove a point, you need to read it correctly.


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## sween1911 (Jan 12, 2015)

I saw this thread and immediately assumed it's the 9000th Mag thread and doomed for locking, but it seems we can still still salvage a good conversation about Maglites...

I still have a soft spot in my heart for the trusty Mag! We still have a bunch around the house. Back in the day, my dad's old school red 5D that was never far from his reach was considered the ultimate light around the house. Is Maglite they still making money from the masses? It appears so. They have their niche I suppose, providing what appears to the average person as an above-average light in a sea of lesser lights. For us flashaholics of course, they blend into the sea of mass market consumer trinkets and are pretty much invisible. 

But I can't deny their roots as the once esoteric light choice of the cognoscente.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 12, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> _...stuff about runtimes & performance...._



I don't deny any of your observations. However it's worth noting Selfbuilt uses quite an old spec 2200mAh ICR for runtime tests. Today you can get upto 3400mAh 18650's.

You also need to consider voltage sag, a newer high performance IMR/INR battery will sustain high output for longer as the voltage won't drop as much.

The charts Selfbuilt does are good for PEAK figures and profile curves, but don't take the stats too literally without considering battery types. :thumbsup:


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 12, 2015)

sween1911 said:


> I saw this thread and immediately assumed it's the 9000th Mag thread and doomed for locking, but it seems we can still still salvage a good conversation about Maglites...
> 
> I still have a soft spot in my heart for the trusty Mag! We still have a bunch around the house. Back in the day, my dad's old school red 5D that was never far from his reach was considered the ultimate light around the house. Is Maglite they still making money from the masses? It appears so. They have their niche I suppose, providing what appears to the average person as an above-average light in a sea of lesser lights. For us flashaholics of course, they blend into the sea of mass market consumer trinkets and are pretty much invisible.
> 
> But I can't deny their roots as the once esoteric light choice of the cognoscente.


I think for myself and one of the reasons I started this thread was quite simple.

I would like to buy and use new Maglites, but I have a real hard time finding something that fits my use at sensible money.

I do use my Solitaire LED a lot. And would love a scaled up AA version of one.

But I really like to EDC 18650 tube style lights. The MagTacs don't support 18650 and I'm not going to pump CR123a's through them, plus the purchase price is crazy high by comparison to other lights on the market. For instance today I'm EDC'ing a Klarus XT2C with an XM-L2. 725 lumens and great runtimes.

Yesterday I was EDC'ing a Convoy S4 with Nichia219B that I built for about £15 total cost.

The closest Mag can offer is the XL200, which I like and would like to own, but retail price is well over £50 in the UK and it only has 172 lumens and poor runtime on max. Plus it's physically bigger than 18650 tube lights.


If I'm going out across the fields I'll take more of a thrower light than a tube light, from a p60 to something C8 sized. All of these fit in my coat pocket. A Mag ML125 or D series doesn't. Fine as an emergency light maybe, but portability is a big issue these days. My old 6D Mag oozes cool factor, but the reality is, it just hangs on the wall these days. Which is quite sad really.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 12, 2015)

Stream said:


> I used to prefer Ni-MHs too, and I mostly used 2xAA lights. But trust me, get a pair of quality 18650 batteries, a decent double bay charger along with a quality flashlight that takes 18650s, and you will never look back. You just get so much more power and runtime from Li-Ions that you will wonder why you ever bothered with Ni-MHs.
> 
> I recommend protected AW Li-Ion batteries. I'm sure there are other quality brands that are just as good, but I have been buying AW cells for nearly 10 years and have never had a battery fail or malfunction, so I stick to what has worked for me. They cost around $21.50 a piece for the 3400mAh versions at lighthound. For your charger, I recommend Nitecore intellicharger i4; it has four charging slots, and it can take both Li-Ions as well as your Ni-MHs. It should cost you around $20 on eBay. My favorite 1x18650 flashlight (can take 2xCR123 primaries too if you prefer) is the Fenix PD35. It's bulletproof; the feel and build quality far exceeds that of any Mag I've held, and it is right up there with other quality brands. The runtimes are also excellent, you get about 8 hours at 180 lumens. It retails for around $69.95 at fenix-store. A Nitecore EC20 is also a good option, and it is a bit cheaper: typically retailing for around $44.95 online.



Wow, thanks guys (including Chicken Drumstick) funny thing i was looking at the Fenix PD35 and i'm assuming this would be a great starting pack, the Nitecore i4 2014 version. I was waiting until i got some extra cash to blow but i already saved these suggestions to my wishlist on Amazon.  Thanks again!

And there was a few comments on here about unprotected Li-ion dangers to someone like me who doesn't know anything about. I know there's topics about that so i've been reading up on all that .



sween1911 said:


> I saw this thread and immediately assumed it's the 9000th Mag thread and doomed for locking, but it seems we can still still salvage a good conversation about Maglites...
> 
> I still have a soft spot in my heart for the trusty Mag! We still have a bunch around the house. Back in the day, my dad's old school red 5D that was never far from his reach was considered the ultimate light around the house. Is Maglite they still making money from the masses? It appears so. They have their niche I suppose, providing what appears to the average person as an above-average light in a sea of lesser lights. For us flashaholics of course, they blend into the sea of mass market consumer trinkets and are pretty much invisible.
> 
> But I can't deny their roots as the once esoteric light choice of the cognoscente.



Yes, back to the original topic!


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 12, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> I think for myself and one of the reasons I started this thread was quite simple.
> 
> I would like to buy and use new Maglites, but I have a real hard time finding something that fits my use at sensible money.
> 
> ...



Yeah, don't get me wrong here they can be really useful in certain situations where you need D cells or AA, AAA cells and your other lights are not working or available. I still EDC the AA Mag incandescent version as i'd prefer to use my good lights for special reasons like walking out at night, camping or just messing around with the light in my apt at night. In fact i use some cheap plastic lights when i wake up in the middle of the night (mostly because they are powered by crap NiMhs and it's not too much light all at once letting my eyes adjust, even the mags can be too bright).


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## thedoc007 (Jan 12, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> I don't deny any of your observations. However it's worth noting Selfbuilt uses quite an old spec 2200mAh ICR for runtime tests. Today you can get upto 3400mAh 18650's.



You should deny some of nitedrive's runtime observations, because they are flat-out wrong. He did not interpret the graphs correctly.


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## nitedrive (Jan 12, 2015)

thedoc007 said:


> YOU need to read the graphs again. The scale on the Y axis is not lumens...it is RELATIVE output. So if it starts at 900 lumens (260 on selfbuilt's scale), and drops to 80 on his scale, it is still doing about 275 lumens. And it continues to do that for over 4 hours. And that is with a start on turbo...if you turned in on in medium, it would be that much longer. And even more, that is with a 2200 mAh cell. If you use a 3400 mAh cell, you will EASILY get eight hours at 180 lumens. If you are going to use a graph to prove a point, you need to read it correctly.



*You are correct!* Sorry, I had been reading so many graphs where Lumens was the dependent axis that I missed that the other one used relative output. Note, that my previous post I'm pretty sure used lumens in every graph. 

I do have a question about the PD35 specs. They give the peak intensity as 8600cd. Since they don't say what power level I have to assume that was in Boost mode. That suggests to me that we are dealing with a very floody light. The spec list on the packaging has to be incorrect because it shows the same peak intensity regardless of output. We of course know that if you cut the lumens in half the range/peak intensity is also cut in half. I know some will want a very floody light but for me, the fact that this light needs 800 lumens vs 310 to deliver almost the same peak intensity (8300 vs 8600). It looks like the MagTac would out reach the Fenix in just a few minutes. So again, depending on your needs the extra output may just be lost output. Note that I previously stated I would like the Magtac to be a bit more spot vs flood.

It would be interesting to see the Fenix output on CR123 cells. I would never feel OK suggesting 18650 cells to the average person. Anyway, while I added a disclaimer that the Fenix's poor reach would make it a bad choice for me (I'm not looking for a flood light), you are 100% correct that I misread the graph thus my post was wrong.


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## thedoc007 (Jan 12, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> I had been reading so many graphs where Lumens was the dependent axis that I missed that the other one used relative output.



No worries, we all make mistakes. I'm not sure why selfbuilt does it that way, but regardless, his reviews are outstanding - as far as I am concerned, the benchmark for how it should be done.



nitedrive said:


> I do have a question about the PD35 specs. They give the peak intensity as 8600cd. Since they don't say what power level I have to assume that was in Boost mode. That suggests to me that we are dealing with a very floody light. The spec list on the packaging has to be incorrect because it shows the same peak intensity regardless of output. We of course know that if you cut the lumens in half the range/peak intensity is also cut in half. I know some will want a very floody light but for me, the fact that this light needs 800 lumens vs 310 to deliver almost the same peak intensity (8300 vs 8600). It looks like the MagTac would out reach the Fenix in just a few minutes. So again, depending on your needs the extra output may just be lost output. Note that I previously stated I would like the Magtac to be a bit more spot vs flood.



As to the PD35, yes, it is quite floody. And yes, the peak intensity is measured on turbo, and will be dramatically lower on other mode. It has a GIANT hotspot, and plenty of spill...so it would definitely not be what you are looking for. I actually really like the huge hotspot, I do truck inspections, and it makes it easy to spot anything out of place, without having to wave it around excessively. But you have to match your lights to the job at hand, no question. If you want throw, look elsewhere.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 13, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> *You are correct!* Sorry, I had been reading so many graphs where Lumens was the dependent axis that I missed that the other one used relative output. Note, that my previous post I'm pretty sure used lumens in every graph.
> 
> I do have a question about the PD35 specs. They give the peak intensity as 8600cd. Since they don't say what power level I have to assume that was in Boost mode. That suggests to me that we are dealing with a very floody light. The spec list on the packaging has to be incorrect because it shows the same peak intensity regardless of output. We of course know that if you cut the lumens in half the range/peak intensity is also cut in half. I know some will want a very floody light but for me, the fact that this light needs 800 lumens vs 310 to deliver almost the same peak intensity (8300 vs 8600). It looks like the MagTac would out reach the Fenix in just a few minutes. So again, depending on your needs the extra output may just be lost output. Note that I previously stated I would like the Magtac to be a bit more spot vs flood.
> 
> It would be interesting to see the Fenix output on CR123 cells. I would never feel OK suggesting 18650 cells to the average person. Anyway, while I added a disclaimer that the Fenix's poor reach would make it a bad choice for me (I'm not looking for a flood light), you are 100% correct that I misread the graph thus my post was wrong.


PEAK intensity will only ever be at max output, I agree how they represent the info is misleading. But tbh who really cares about throw on lower modes? If you need more throw, crank it up to a higher output.

With regards to throw vs flood.

As a rule all small tube lights will be quite floody. This is simply because of the size of the reflector. For big throw you need big reflectors to focus the beam tighter.

The next biggest thing is emitter size in relation to the reflector.

e.g. if you have 2 identical sizes lights, but one with an XM-L2 (a large LED) and the other with an XP-G2 (a smaller LED), the XP-G2 will be more thrower with higher intensity, but lower lumen out.

The net result would be a smaller hotspot, but more intense, and less bright spill beam. But the ability to light objects up further away.


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## nitedrive (Jan 13, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> PEAK intensity will only ever be at max output, I agree how they represent the info is misleading. But tbh who really cares about throw on lower modes? If you need more throw, crank it up to a higher output.
> 
> With regards to throw vs flood.
> 
> ...



I get and already understand the points you made about chip size and reflector size and the like. One of the things I actually like about the Mag Solitaire LED is that because it uses such a small LED it actually has quite a bit more throw than my Thrunite Ti3 even though the Ti3 is rated at 120 lumens vs 37. 

I can see a reason to care about throw in the lower modes. While I agree if you need throw go for the high mode, you can't sustain the high mode. When say walking in the dark on a trail I would rather have a bit more throw the entire time the light is on, not just when I'm on boost. Anyway, if the objective is a floody type light as thedoc007 wanted I totally get wanting lots of lumens in a flood pattern. If the objective is to see something far off (which is typically what I want) then I would accept half the lumens for a better spot. There are some limits, I think my 2ng gen Mag 2D is too much of a spot... but it does have reach.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 13, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> I get and already understand the points you made about chip size and reflector size and the like. One of the things I actually like about the Mag Solitaire LED is that because it uses such a small LED it actually has quite a bit more throw than my Thrunite Ti3 even though the Ti3 is rated at 120 lumens vs 37.
> 
> I can see a reason to care about throw in the lower modes. While I agree if you need throw go for the high mode, you can't sustain the high mode. When say walking in the dark on a trail I would rather have a bit more throw the entire time the light is on, not just when I'm on boost. Anyway, if the objective is a floody type light as thedoc007 wanted I totally get wanting lots of lumens in a flood pattern. If the objective is to see something far off (which is typically what I want) then I would accept half the lumens for a better spot. There are some limits, I think my 2ng gen Mag 2D is too much of a spot... but it does have reach.



You're right that the old LED Maglites throw quite far, despite pathetic lumen output. However, I don't really find that too useful. The problem is that it creates extreme tunnel vision. It's worthless for trying to _find _an object far away, because you cover such a small area with the spot. It's only of marginal benefit when you know where something is, and it's a small target, and you care nothing about anything surrounding it.


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## Stream (Jan 13, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Wow, thanks guys (including Chicken Drumstick) funny thing i was looking at the Fenix PD35 and i'm assuming this would be a great starting pack, the Nitecore i4 2014 version. I was waiting until i got some extra cash to blow but i already saved these suggestions to my wishlist on Amazon.  Thanks again!



You're very welcome 



MidnightDistortions said:


> I still EDC the AA Mag incandescent version as i'd prefer to use my good lights for special reasons like walking out at night, camping or just messing around with the light in my apt at night.



Wow, really? I never thought I'd hear anyone on this forum still EDCing an incan Minimag! Why not the LED Minimag, at the very least? You live in the States, and I'm sure you can pick one up dirt cheap somewhere. And if you're really shopping on a shoestring, you can pick up decent AA LED lights from as little as $5 on dx.com. They ship from China, so it can take a while, but you get great bargains.


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## Stream (Jan 13, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> The Fenix looks well built but I can't complain about the same for the MagTac. Certainly the Fenix isn't putting out 180 lumens for 4 hours. The plot shows that it drops to 160 in 5 minutes then to 90 after 40 minutes. The more I look at the run time graphs the more I don't believe the max output+long run time hype of many lights (Mag is not innocent here). Aside from (to the best of my knowledge) not working with 18650 cells I'm not really seeing how the Magtac is inferior. Different design choices yes, but not inferior.



As thedoc007 has already pointed out, the PD35 (on medium) with a 3400mAh battery will easily give you 8 hours of 180 lumens. I can't say too much about the build quality of the MagTac as I've never owned nor held one, but by the numbers, the PD35 is much better value. In my opinion, the MagTac is very overpriced with a msrp of $95 while offering far less versatility and bang for your buck than the PD35 which has a msrp of $89.95. As far as I know, the MagTac is not compatible with 18650 batteries, and that is a big drawback in terms of runtime and affordability (CR123 primaries are expensive). Aside from the max output of 960 lumens, the PD35 also gives you over 3 hours at 460 lumens, which is brighter than the MagTac on max (only 320 lumens). Granted, it has a timed step down to medium after 30 minutes to prevent overheating, but all you have to do to get it back up to 460 lumens is to turn it off and on again. 

At only 320 lumens, I would have liked to see a flat runtime of 4 hours on the MacTac. The interface is also a hassle to use compared to the PD35: which has a separate mode switch with memory so you can select the level you want and simply use the tailcap switch for on and off without having to cycle through levels every time you turn it on. The lack of a tactical forward clicky with momentary on is also a big drawback with the MagTac considering it is marketed as a tactical light. It also has a plastic lens, which just seems kinda cheap compared to the sturdy glass lens on the PD35.

As for peak beam intensity, thedoc007 is correct that it is measured on turbo, and that the PD35 is a floody light with a large hotspot. Given that you prefer more throw, it is most likely not a good choice for you. I can, however, recommend that you look at the Nitecore EC2, which is a very small 1x18650 light with lots of throw. The EC2 along with the EC1 (1xCR123) will probably be my next purchase; they are very hard to beat in terms of size and throw ratio. They retail for around $66, so very good value as well. Depending on how much throw you want, you may also consider bigger lights with larger reflectors.



nitedrive said:


> I would never feel OK suggesting 18650 cells to the average person.



I don't see why you wouldn't feel OK with that. Most people already use Li-Ion batteries on a daily basis, i.e. anyone with a cellphone, tablet or laptop etc. I would recommend people make sure they get quality cells, and this applies to all devices using Li-Ion cells; there have been cases where faulty laptop batteries have burned down houses. However, one should be knowledgeable before using unprotected Li-Ion cells.


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## Stream (Jan 13, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> It would be interesting to see the Fenix output on CR123 cells.



My guess is that it would still get better runtimes than the MagTac. While I agree with your general sentiment that these super high and short turbo / burst modes are not terribly useful for most daily situations, and are mostly marketing hype geared towards people who want crazy high lumen numbers, one of the advantages of these large and very powerful LEDs is that they get great runtimes on the lower and more sensible levels, e.g. the 8 hours on the very useful 180 lumen medium level of the PD35.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 13, 2015)

Stream said:


> nitedrive said:
> 
> 
> > I would never feel OK suggesting 18650 cells to the average person.
> ...



Lithium-ion cells in a flashlight can be a grenade to someone clueless about proper care and use. Sure, if you're reasonably careful, they're pretty safe. Not as safe as a cellphone or laptop, because in those cases the manufacturer has control over everything (the batteries, the charging algorithm, the discharge limit, the physical storage, etc).

But, yeah, I'd never give an unprotected lithium-ion battery and a flashlight to someone that wasn't into batteries.


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## Stream (Jan 13, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Lithium-ion cells in a flashlight can be a grenade to someone clueless about proper care and use. Sure, if you're reasonably careful, they're pretty safe. Not as safe as a cellphone or laptop, because in those cases the manufacturer has control over everything (the batteries, the charging algorithm, the discharge limit, the physical storage, etc).



After using protected Li-Ion cells in flashlights for nearly 10 years, I have never had an issue. Nor have I taken any particular precautions or care besides making sure I recharge them when they need it, much like you would with a phone or laptop. However, it's important to buy quality cells and a quality charger.


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## CodyCash (Jan 13, 2015)

I can't speak to sales in the UK but in the US Mag does have a cultist following, especially amongst the baby boomers. Im just now getting edjucated on new technologies and advancements in flashlights myself and agree 100% that Mag is way behind the curve at this point, in every aspect you spoke of except for the fact that they reside on the shelfs of every big box store in the USA so even with seamingly non-existant marketing they remain a top seller.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 13, 2015)

Stream said:


> After using protected Li-Ion cells in flashlights for nearly 10 years, I have never had an issue. Nor have I taken any particular precautions or care besides making sure I recharge them when they need it, much like you would with a phone or laptop. *However, it's important to buy quality cells and a quality charger.*



And if they're unprotected, to make sure that the cells are still in good shape and the charger is working properly. I don't think many people that aren't into batteries will check the voltage, etc. And when it comes time to replace them, they may just buy a cheap battery and it could be trouble.

It's not worth the trouble or danger. Any non-flashaholics should stick with primary batteries, because they won't even want to be bothered charging safe NiMH cells. Alkalines is probably all they'll want to buy. Energizer lithiums or CR123 if they're rich. NiMH rechargeables if they're just getting into rechargeable batteries.

When they're ready, let them buy their own lithium-ion setup. That way, if they hurt themselves or burn their house down, you don't have to feel guilty.


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## Stream (Jan 13, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> And if they're unprotected, to make sure that the cells are still in good shape and the charger is working properly. I don't think many people that aren't into batteries will check the voltage, etc. And when it comes time to replace them, they may just buy a cheap battery and it could be trouble.
> 
> It's not worth the trouble or danger. Any non-flashaholics should stick with primary batteries, because they won't even want to be bothered charging safe NiMH cells. Alkalines is probably all they'll want to buy. Energizer lithiums or CR123 if they're rich. NiMH rechargeables if they're just getting into rechargeable batteries.
> 
> When they're ready, let them buy their own lithium-ion setup. That way, if they hurt themselves or burn their house down, you don't have to feel guilty.



To me it depends on the person, if it's a completely lazy scatterbrain that can't be bothered to pop some cells in a charger then I would always recommend alkaline lights. However, if it's a person that has shown enough interest to end up here asking questions then I have no trouble recommending protected Li-Ion cells. I personally have no experience with unprotected cells, so I leave that to others with more experience in that department. However, I always underscore the importance of using quality cells and a good charger, and I usually recommend the brands that have worked well for me. 

Recently I gave my old PD32 to my brother along with two AW 18650 (2600mAh) batteries and my trusty old two-bay charger. So far so good, he carries the light every day, and I know he is charging the batteries. I will be checking up on them from time to time to see that there is no danger of him burning his house down lol.


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## Stream (Jan 13, 2015)

CodyCash said:


> I can't speak to sales in the UK but in the US Mag does have a cultist following, especially amongst the baby boomers. Im just now getting edjucated on new technologies and advancements in flashlights myself and agree 100% that Mag is way behind the curve at this point, in every aspect you spoke of except for the fact that they reside on the shelfs of every big box store in the USA so even with seamingly non-existant marketing they remain a top seller.



What has been pointed out here in this thread from many users, both in the US and elsewhere is that Mag no longer occupies as much shelf space as they used to in hardware or big box stores, hence they seem to be losing market share. Part of that could be because they are so far behind the competition, which comes mainly in the form of very cheap CREE lights from China that offer decent quality and good output. Premium brands like LedLenser are also taking over in stores where Mag used to be the sole premium brand.


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## mcnair55 (Jan 13, 2015)

Stream said:


> What has been pointed out here in this thread from many users, both in the US and elsewhere is that Mag no longer occupies as much shelf space as they used to in hardware or big box stores, hence they seem to be losing market share. Part of that could be because they are so far behind the competition, which comes mainly in the form of very cheap CREE lights from China that offer decent quality and good output. Premium brands like LedLenser are also taking over in stores where Mag used to be the sole premium brand.



I think you nailed it,the big sheds are buying cheap Chinese lights way better in brightness terms than the Maglite and often at just a few dollars.Average Joe Punter is not interested as long as he has light,the Joe Punts who like decent kit will buy a brand such as Led Lenser etc.

Once Fenix go retail Maglite will be well and truly bewildered but if Maglite were to play the game all other makes would be in deep mire as the name alone is still a very valuable asset and is known world wide.

I would be first in line for a decent 2015 high spec Maglite :thumbsup:


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## 1DaveN (Jan 13, 2015)

mcnair55 said:


> I think you nailed it,the big sheds are buying cheap Chinese lights way better in brightness terms than the Maglite and often at just a few dollars.Average Joe Punter is not interested as long as he has light,the Joe Punts who like decent kit will buy a brand such as Led Lenser etc.
> 
> Once Fenix go retail Maglite will be well and truly bewildered but if Maglite were to play the game all other makes would be in deep mire as the name alone is still a very valuable asset and is known world wide.
> 
> I would be first in line for a decent 2015 high spec Maglite :thumbsup:



I've got five or six Mags that I bought in the 1970's or early 80's. They all work flawlessly (although not very brightly given the ancient technology). Given that level of quality, I'd be happy to keep buying them if I thought they were competitive with modern lights. I just went to see if I could use lithium primaries, and while it doesn't say on their web site, I found a vendor who says you should never use anything but alkalines in any Mag light. It seems to me that in today's world, that's just crazy.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 13, 2015)

Stream said:


> Wow, really? I never thought I'd hear anyone on this forum still EDCing an incan Minimag! Why not the LED Minimag, at the very least? You live in the States, and I'm sure you can pick one up dirt cheap somewhere. And if you're really shopping on a shoestring, you can pick up decent AA LED lights from as little as $5 on dx.com. They ship from China, so it can take a while, but you get great bargains.



Haha, well the incan bulbs are still working on them i could get the LED upgrade kit for it, i think they have it for a fairly decent price at the Bass Pro Shop here. I have an older AAA version too, but there's a metal piece that i assume it's some kind of ground or something that hooks from the bulb connection to the corner of the flashlight barrel. Tried fixing it with some wire but the darn thing wouldn't turn off, when it did it'll work for a day and then quit working so it's in my junk pile right now. It used to be my EDC. My EDC AA Minimag will eventually be upgraded, but for now since the incan bulbs work (got 2 lol) i'd prefer doing that once i get all the flashlights and battery chargers i want out of the way first .


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## nitedrive (Jan 13, 2015)

Stream said:


> As thedoc007 has already pointed out, the PD35 (on medium) with a 3400mAh battery will easily give you 8 hours of 180 lumens. I can't say too much about the build quality of the MagTac as I've never owned nor held one, but by the numbers, the PD35 is much better value. In my opinion, the MagTac is very overpriced with a msrp of $95 while offering far less versatility and bang for your buck than the PD35 which has a msrp of $89.95. As far as I know, the MagTac is not compatible with 18650 batteries, and that is a big drawback in terms of runtime and affordability (CR123 primaries are expensive). Aside from the max output of 960 lumens, the PD35 also gives you over 3 hours at 460 lumens, which is brighter than the MagTac on max (only 320 lumens). Granted, it has a timed step down to medium after 30 minutes to prevent overheating, but all you have to do to get it back up to 460 lumens is to turn it off and on again.
> 
> At only 320 lumens, I would have liked to see a flat runtime of 4 hours on the MacTac. The interface is also a hassle to use compared to the PD35: which has a separate mode switch with memory so you can select the level you want and simply use the tailcap switch for on and off without having to cycle through levels every time you turn it on. The lack of a tactical forward clicky with momentary on is also a big drawback with the MagTac considering it is marketed as a tactical light. It also has a plastic lens, which just seems kinda cheap compared to the sturdy glass lens on the PD35.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions. Since I already have three Magtac ($30 for the first and due to a shipping mistake I ended up getting two more for an additional $30 for the pair) I'm not looking at the moment. In the US you can order the Magtac for $55 from Amazon. The PD35 is $70 from Amazon. Not a huge difference but I wasn't interested in paying more than the $30 I actually spent so $70 was simply not going to happen. However, we also can't do fair comparisons based on a fluke Ebay price. 

The use of an 18650 cell really helps battery capacity. If we were to compare CR123 vs CR123 run times I would be interested to see the results. It seems very clear the longer run time is all related to the battery choice. I actually find the Mag UI to be just fine. It does have a momentary on though you can't flash it. Then again, I don't care about that feature. The longer run time could be useful. I use RCR123 cells and rarely do I need to leave the light on for more than an hour so the limited capacity is not as big a deal. Still, I wouldn't refuse the extra capacity of an 18650. 

I actually do have a light with a big reflector. I've got a Black and Decker Li-ion (2 18650 cells) rechargeable spot light that delivers about 750 lumens. Thanks to some impressive heatsinks it also maintains that output rather nicely. I thought I had found a plot that showed it was something silly like 80% or better vs peak output for the entire battery.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?339764-stanley-Fat-Max-XML-spotlight-!!!

Still, the EC2 looks nice. I assume the Li Ion cells are protected?

Speaking of Li-ion cells. I'm VERY familiar with them. My first patent was actually related to a Li-ion battery I designed. I'm also very familiar with the safety circuits we put on those cells, especially the 18650 cells I used in the battery I helped to design and the design rules we had for clearances etc to avoid a "vent with flame" incident. There is also a very good chance that at some point you have seen one of the devices that used at least one of the batteries I was involved with back in the past. So I actually really know what I'm talking about with at least the Li-ion cells that were available to manufactures a decade back. A protected Li-ion "cell" is basically a battery pack and thus I don't see any issue with it any more than I see with a camera battery (except they are bigger). My concern is using unprotected 18650 cells. I have some Li ion cells from back in the day. I've never used them in part because I don't want to design an over discharge circuit for them. At my current work we do experimental designs and we do have some of the big Lipo batteries. Again I'm very careful with those given the risk of both puncture as well as over charging. Anyway, I would NEVER suggest anyone use an unprotected cell unless they really know what they are doing. I would never personally use one in a flashlight for fear that I wouldn't turn the thing off before dropping under 3V per cell. I simply have enough respect/fear of the cells that I won't use them unless I know what I'm getting. I do recall just how bad the early BYD cells were. Total junk. I simply feel better using more stable chemistries when we talk about handling individual cells. I wouldn't assume that if I gave say an 18650 powered flashlight to a friend they would realize that, should they need a replacement cell, they should use only 18650s with a proper safety circuit. If there was an industry standard for such a battery pack I would change my tune.


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## nitedrive (Jan 13, 2015)

Stream said:


> My guess is that it would still get better runtimes than the MagTac. While I agree with your general sentiment that these super high and short turbo / burst modes are not terribly useful for most daily situations, and are mostly marketing hype geared towards people who want crazy high lumen numbers, one of the advantages of these large and very powerful LEDs is that they get great runtimes on the lower and more sensible levels, e.g. the 8 hours on the very useful 180 lumen medium level of the PD35.



It probably would since it uses a larger die and thus presumably is more power efficient with a trade off that you get a floody type light. I wouldn't want a light that was more floody than the Magtac given how I use it. Based on the PD35 needing 850 lumens to out reach the 310 lumen Magtac I'm going to guess I would find the 180 lumen reach to be disapointing. I find this a bit with my Thrunite Ti3 vs the Solitaire LED. Despite ~3x the lumens the Solitaire actually out reaches the Ti3. For a pocket light I don't mind a bit more flood but I would rather trade a bit of that peak 120 lumens for say 80 lumens and a narrower beam+longer run time. If I didn't use NiMHs in that light I would dump it's thirsty butt!


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## nitedrive (Jan 13, 2015)

Incidentally, short of a criminally bad design, there is very little to a Li-ion charger. Unlike a NiCd or NiMH quick charger, a Li-ion charger is pure simplicity. All you do is limit current to some save value (say .8C, safe is cell dependent of course) and limit voltage to 4.2V/cell (this voltage was different for a few cells but that was rare). Initially the cell takes the maximum current the charger will deliver. Once it gets to 4.2V the current naturally tapers off to hold the 4.2V. Finally you cut the current once it drops below some minimum value (say 0.05C) The exact value isn't too critical, nor is the max C rate. The critical part is the 4.2V. Not 4.25, 4.2. We used to bench charge cells/batteries by connecting them to the high end HP power supplies (rack mount units similar to the 6624A that could control voltage to 0.001V). Just set a peak current and peak voltage and come back in a few hours. NiMH was the hard one since it required a temperature sensor.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 14, 2015)

Stream said:


> Aside from the max output of 960 lumens, the PD35 also gives you over 3 hours at 460 lumens, which is brighter than the MagTac on max (only 320 lumens).


Isn't the MagTac using an XP-G not an XM-L2, if so it's not really valid to compare directly on raw lumen output.

That said I do agree with everything else, why Mag thought not supporting 18650's would promote sales beggers belief! Sure they could have promoted CR123a as the primary power source, but it would have cost next to nothing to also support 18650's, which in this class of light is an industry standard.

And price again...

Here in the UK you are looking at £90 for a MagTac ($142!!!). Remember a new Klarus XT2C which is even more tactically focused and higher spec is only £50-55 in the UK by comparison.

http://www.halfords.com/car-seats-t...anterns-tent-lights/maglite-mag-tac-led-torch


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 14, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> I actually find the Mag UI to be just fine.


You see, I think with the Mag-Tac this is another massive failure. Their idea of a good UI is to have two different models!!!!!   

Every modern high/highish output torch should have a low mode, but no, not with the Mag-Tac, you either have strobe or low :duh2:

And in the UK, some stockists such as Halfords don't even sell the plain bezel version.


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## Treeguy (Jan 14, 2015)

1DaveN said:


> I just went to see if I could use lithium primaries, and while it doesn't say on their web site, I found a vendor who says you should never use anything but alkalines in any Mag light. It seems to me that in today's world, that's just crazy.



It's crazy until you look at Maglite'target audience. I apologize for repeating what I said pages back, but Maglites are for the Joe Luncbox crowd; the guys who will buy their tools at Home Depot and maybe grab a flashlight while they are there. Maglite is recognizable and it's fine that they take alkalines because when you get to the checkout at Home Depot, there is is a wall of alkalines. Sometimes displays of alkalines in almost every aisle.This is not a mistake. This is for people who are not flashlight enthusiasts, never heard the term "alkaleaks", don't know what an 18650 is, and here's the crucial part - don't care. A Maglite and a big pack of Duracells is familiar, affordable, and leaves Joe Lunchbox, and even Soccer Mom, with the impression they has made a sound purchase. And in all truth they have.

And Joe Lunchbox outnumbers Frank Flashhaholic 100 to 1.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 14, 2015)

Treeguy said:


> It's crazy until you look at Maglite'target audience. I apologize for repeating what I said pages back, but Maglites are for the Joe Luncbox crowd; the guys who will buy their tools at Home Depot and maybe grab a flashlight while they are there. Maglite is recognizable and it's fine that they take alkalines because when you get to the checkout at Home Depot, there is is a wall of alkalines. Sometimes displays of alkalines in almost every aisle.This is not a mistake. This is for people who are not flashlight enthusiasts, never heard the term "alkaleaks", don't know what an 18650 is, and here's the crucial part - don't care. A Maglite and a big pack of Duracells is familiar, affordable, and leaves Joe Lunchbox, and even Soccer Mom, with the impression they has made a sound purchase. And in all truth they have.
> 
> And Joe Lunchbox outnumbers Frank Flashhaholic 100 to 1.


I don't have a problem with this and I don't think there is a problem with this. The odd bit is Mag's refusal and negativity to other battery types.

Supporting alternative batteries doesn't mean they can't still use alkaleaks.

And lets face it, how many of your " Joe Luncbox crowd" are actually going to look up reviews and find runtime charts and output charts for a Maglite before buying? Answer not many to none. And the few that do will likely become informed and end up buying something else anyhow.

So Mag could make all of their products perform better and support a wider range of batteries (and thus more sales and a stronger customer base) without actually affecting the current ability with crappy batteries.

ANSI FL1 only cares about output, what 90 seconds after activation and runtime down to 'x' lux. Supporting lithium primaries (and or lithium iron on some models) and NiMH would not affect these results on alkaline at all.


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## cpfyyz (Jan 14, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Haha, well the incan bulbs are still working on them i could get the LED upgrade kit for it, i think they have it for a fairly decent price at the Bass Pro Shop here. I have an older AAA version too, but there's a metal piece that i assume it's some kind of ground or something that hooks from the bulb connection to the corner of the flashlight barrel. Tried fixing it with some wire but the darn thing wouldn't turn off, when it did it'll work for a day and then quit working so it's in my junk pile right now. It used to be my EDC. My EDC AA Minimag will eventually be upgraded, but for now since the incan bulbs work (got 2 lol) i'd prefer doing that once i get all the flashlights and battery chargers i want out of the way first .



I never knew those kind of upgrade kits were available! I'll have to go to BassProShop next time.
My parents have a few Maglites at home with the old incan bulbs. Would make for a fun project!


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 14, 2015)

cpfyyz said:


> I never knew those kind of upgrade kits were available! I'll have to go to BassProShop next time.
> My parents have a few Maglites at home with the old incan bulbs. Would make for a fun project!



They're hard to find, most places will just sell the flashlights and not bother to carry the bulbs or the LED upgrade kits but yeah i found one at BassProShop during the fall, just hope your store carries them otherwise you might have to order them online.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 14, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> I don't have a problem with this and I don't think there is a problem with this. The odd bit is Mag's refusal and negativity to other battery types.
> 
> Supporting alternative batteries doesn't mean they can't still use alkaleaks.
> 
> ...



I think we're talking in circles here. I'm grateful that places like Target sells Mags and still have rechargeables on display. They give people a choice of what to buy, either stick with alkalines or go with NiMH cells. Some people who have dealt with alkalines will end up choosing NiMHs anyway at least that's what a few people have told me. I don't hear of too many people complain about alkaline leakage but continue using alkalines because they saw rechargeables in their local Target and decided to switch to NiMH cells. Most people that buy rechargeables have no idea what battery type the are either but they seem to like reusable AA/AAA's.

Mag sure could definitely start supporting other battery types and already their flashlights work with NiMHs they could be utilizing at least that technology while some people might be too afraid to use Li-ions or don't even know about it. But there's always some who swear that rechargeables are not cost effective and it's sad that articles like this are often misinformed when rechargeables are often the most cost effective in say, flashlights. Even if you don't need one all the time it's still there. And clearly the author of that article doesn't know of Eneloops. 

I think Mag still considers alkalines a marketing tool and probably think NiMHs will be phased out with something else. Li-ions are not perfect replacements either as it takes a bit more education to keep safe and unless you can keep the charge level 40-80% on a regular basis you'll be replacing Li-ions quicker than NiMHs. I see Eneloops as a good replacement for alkalines, but it's not doing so well due to the fact some people don't care or don't want to use anything but alkalines. It's even surprising that both Energizer and Duracell designed better chargers so you're not killing your batteries 100 cycles down the line which to me shows that even alkaline companies are trying to get people to switch over. The cost is definitely high at first but over time it pays in the end. People don't have to run out and buy 3 chargers with 100 NiMH cells to replace their stock of alkalines, that wouldn't be practical especially if you are not knowledgeable with them and don't know whether your device will work with them.

Anyway i kinda get the point why Mag doesn't really want to make lights for other battery types but in the end it becomes limiting for those who are looking for something better. And sometimes the best way to find that out is to give those people some options and educating them about it, instead of writing articles based on the idea that rechargeables are not cost effective.


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## hblock72 (Jan 14, 2015)

I'm new here and I'm a flashaholic in the making, but up until I recently started digging into this forum, I was only aware of lights I could either find in a big box store or order from a catalog like Bass pro shops or Cabelas. This pretty much limited me to maglights, streamlights, and in some cases Surefires could be found in some of the catalogs. Two weeks ago, I'd never even heard of Fenix or an 18650 battery. I probably fit perfectly into Maglites target demographic and in fact I do own several of them and have relied on them for years and really had pretty good luck with them. Even though I'm about to embark into the higher end class of flashlights, I will likely keep many Maglite's around for the reasons that have already been mentioned here. At $8.00 at wal-mart, the AA mini-mag is still a pretty decent light to have around. My wife and kids are all familiar with them, know where to find them in the house/car if needed, and can pull alkaline batteries out of the stash kept in the cuppard or from a tv remote/kids toys in pinch if needed. Also, even in the remotest places when hunting/working/traveling, I can walk into any country gas station, hardware shop, or feed store in the middle of nowhere and buy a replacement Maglite, or the batteries/bulbs I may need to get one going again.

Having said all this though, I recently bought a Terralux ministar LED upgrade for one of my oldest minimags. When I took it apart, the lens cracked. It ended up being cheaper to buy a new minimag than to order a replacement lens, so of to Wal-mart I go. While there, I noticed a Coast HP5 on the shelf beside the minimags on sale for $20 so it ended up coming home with me too. So the new Terralux upgraded minimag is far better then the original stock minimag, but the new Coast HP5 has really impressed me and is even better than the upgraded minimag and at $20 for the HP5 vs. $26 for the minimag+upgrade, it will be hard to buy anymore minimags. I do feel Maglite is being slow to innovate with any of their products, but that's probably not their core business. It would be nice to see them market some sort of "premium" line though, perhaps in parallel to their tried and true bread and butter line of lights.


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## nitedrive (Jan 14, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> You see, I think with the Mag-Tac this is another massive failure. Their idea of a good UI is to have two different models!!!!!
> 
> Every modern high/highish output torch should have a low mode, but no, not with the Mag-Tac, you either have strobe or low :duh2:
> 
> And in the UK, some stockists such as Halfords don't even sell the plain bezel version.



OK, I do agree with that. Given Maglite has some programmable interfaces I'm not sure why this light didn't get one. Mine are the versions with a low mode. Since I don't care about strobe I don't mind the as is interface.


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## nitedrive (Jan 14, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> I don't have a problem with this and I don't think there is a problem with this. The odd bit is Mag's refusal and negativity to other battery types.
> 
> Supporting alternative batteries doesn't mean they can't still use alkaleaks.
> 
> ...



Mag does support Li primaries in the LED lights. They also support NiMHs. What they don't seem to support is alternative cell types. I can see how, with the right driver, an 18650 could be used in a 2xCR123 light. I'm not sure why Mag would stop that other than they might be considered about liability. Even though they might say "don't use 18650s", it's possible their lawyers cautioned them against assuming a warning would save them in the event some idiot blew one up in the light. Since Mag is in the US they can't hide behind an importer when it comes to product liability laws. If Maglite said 18650s are OK how do they ensure you use only protected cells, not the unprotected cells? If they say "use only protected 18650s" and someone gets hurt when an unprotected 18650 blows up is Maglite liable? So they make the light incompatible with an 18650 to avoid the legal risk.*

*The above legal part is just a theory.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 14, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> Mag does support Li primaries in the LED lights.



Maybe unofficially. But in another thread on the battery forum, someone was complaining that he fried his Maglite when testing some NiZn rechargeable cells, which are 1.8v. Since lithiums are 1.7v, that's getting pretty close to the "fry" level.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 14, 2015)

And as far as I know Mag don't officially support these battery types for most of their range. Has someone got anything in writing from a manual or such saying so?

But it's not just this, the lights seem to be engineered around alkalines, so in many cases you see little or no performance improvement when run on NiMh or Lithium primaries. But they could retain the alkaline performance while getting better performance from other cell types. This is the bit that's the shame. 

Such as, Mag could sell the current D2 with D cells or with an AA carrier and some NiMH Duraloops and a charger. 6 AA's would give you good runtime still and performance. But allow for better flatter regulation. The driver could easily adapt and cope with either power source.


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## Stream (Jan 16, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> Still, the EC2 looks nice. I assume the Li Ion cells are protected?



I always use protected Li-Ion cells, and the EC2 takes 18650 batteries so I'm pretty sure that includes protected 18650s. If you do get the EC2, make sure it's the latest 410 lumen version, I see the old 310 is still on sale some places.




nitedrive said:


> It probably would since it uses a larger die and thus presumably is more power efficient with a trade off that you get a floody type light. I wouldn't want a light that was more floody than the Magtac given how I use it. Based on the PD35 needing 850 lumens to out reach the 310 lumen Magtac I'm going to guess I would find the 180 lumen reach to be disapointing.



The new version puts out 960 lumens, and presumably throws further than the old version om max. I have the 850 lumen version, and I mostly find the reach to be perfectly adequate. Recently I was checking the roof of my house after some stormy weather to see if any tiles were missing. I had to step back quite a bit to see the top of the roof, must have been distance of at least 50m (164ft). I had the light on 450 lumens, which is mostly what I leave it on unless I plan on using it for extended periods of time. It light up a very large section of the roof, and I could clearly see everything I needed to see. At this instance, the large hotspot was very useful in that I could quickly scan a very large section of the roof before moving on to the next. If I had needed even more throw I could have kicked it up to max, but that was not necessary at all. 

Depending on what your needs are, you may actually find the throw of the PD35 perfectly adequate too. But if you need more throw, Fenix has more throwy models that also run on 1x18650/2xCR123 batteries: such as the TK09, TK15, TK22 or TK32. The TK09, with 450 lumens and a max distance of 230m, would be the cheapest at about $60.



nitedrive said:


> I wouldn't assume that if I gave say an 18650 powered flashlight to a friend they would realize that, should they need a replacement cell, they should use only 18650s with a proper safety circuit.



No, you would have to educate them on the dangers of using unprotected cells. I never recommend unprotected cells. And as with laptop and cellphone batteries, it can be dangerous to buy cheap stuff, so I always recommend quality brands.


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## Stream (Jan 16, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> That said I do agree with everything else, why Mag thought not supporting 18650's would promote sales beggers belief! Sure they could have promoted CR123a as the primary power source, but it would have cost next to nothing to also support 18650's, which in this class of light is an industry standard.
> 
> And price again...
> 
> ...



I agree that the MagTac is overpriced, poorly designed, and lacks the versatility that comes with allowing the use of an 18650 battery, but I think the only reason Mag was “adventurous” enough to even design a small tactical flashlight in the first place is to recoup some of their loses within law enforcement after many departments in the US no longer allow the big D cell and rechargeable Mags—apparently because the big lights can be used as weapons while not being approved as such. Thus, I don't think Mag cares too much about making the light attractive to consumers as it was primarily designed for that specific niche: securing contracts with police departments. And it's not like a 2xCR123 light has a lot of mainstream appeal anyway. 

However, when you think about the fact that Mag also offers a charger system for the MagTac (presumably with RCR123s), they could have boasted way better runtimes with an 18650 battery. This would have looked even better in their presentations to police departments. But maybe it's just about who can offer the best bulk deals when it comes to selling to police departments, and the less design and production effort Mag puts into their lights, the cheaper their wholesale bulk rates.


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## Stream (Jan 16, 2015)

Treeguy said:


> It's crazy until you look at Maglite'target audience. I apologize for repeating what I said pages back, but Maglites are for the Joe Luncbox crowd; the guys who will buy their tools at Home Depot and maybe grab a flashlight while they are there. Maglite is recognizable and it's fine that they take alkalines because when you get to the checkout at Home Depot, there is is a wall of alkalines. Sometimes displays of alkalines in almost every aisle.This is not a mistake. This is for people who are not flashlight enthusiasts, never heard the term "alkaleaks", don't know what an 18650 is, and here's the crucial part - don't care. A Maglite and a big pack of Duracells is familiar, affordable, and leaves Joe Lunchbox, and even Soccer Mom, with the impression they has made a sound purchase. And in all truth they have.
> 
> And Joe Lunchbox outnumbers Frank Flashhaholic 100 to 1.



There is no reason Maglite can not support alternative battery types while also using alkalines, so that Joe Lunchbox can still grab alkies on his way out of Home Depot. And rechargeable options are not just for the Frank Flashhaholics, many people buy rechargeable flashlights because they want to save money or are environmentally conscious. The “Maglites are for the Joe Luncbox crowd” excuse no longer holds water because, as it happens, Mag is losing Joe Lunchbox. As you point out, Joe Lunchbox is not like us flashlight enthusiasts, and he is not going to spend any more than he has to on a flashlight. So when he sees a sturdy looking Chinese aluminum LED flashlight boasting lots of lumens for half the price of a Mag: guess which one he's going to choose. I've seen this happen. I once observed a Soccer Mom type pick out a flashlight with her 10 year old son. There were Mags, there were LedLensers and most importantly lots and lots of really cheap but decent Chinese lights. They walked away with an aluminum 3-C cell Chinese CREE flashlight that cost only a third of the similar Mags. 

So to repeat what I've said before, Mag either needs to start innovating and targeting the more common premium brands like LedLenser, or they need to outsource production to compete with all the cheap Chinese lights flooding the market.


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## Stream (Jan 16, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> Mag does support Li primaries in the LED lights. They also support NiMHs. What they don't seem to support is alternative cell types. I can see how, with the right driver, an 18650 could be used in a 2xCR123 light. I'm not sure why Mag would stop that other than they might be considered about liability. Even though they might say "don't use 18650s", it's possible their lawyers cautioned them against assuming a warning would save them in the event some idiot blew one up in the light. Since Mag is in the US they can't hide behind an importer when it comes to product liability laws. If Maglite said 18650s are OK how do they ensure you use only protected cells, not the unprotected cells? If they say "use only protected 18650s" and someone gets hurt when an unprotected 18650 blows up is Maglite liable? So they make the light incompatible with an 18650 to avoid the legal risk.*
> 
> *The above legal part is just a theory.



Lithium primaries can also blow up—there have been reported cases here on CPF of CR123 lithium primaries exploding inside lights. And besides primaries, the MagTac already supports Li-Ion batteries in the form of RCR123s, so it has nothing to do with legal considerations. Aside from driver changes, using 18650 batteries in the MagTac would require physically widening the tube to allow for the extra girth of 18650 cells. Maglite's motto when it comes to design seems to be “do the bare minimum of what is required”, so I would count my blessings that the MagTac even takes RCR123 cells.


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## nitedrive (Jan 16, 2015)

Stream said:


> Lithium primaries can also blow up—there have been reported cases here on CPF of CR123 lithium primaries exploding inside lights. And besides primaries, the MagTac already supports Li-Ion batteries in the form of RCR123s, so it has nothing to do with legal considerations. Aside from driver changes, using 18650 batteries in the MagTac would require physically widening the tube to allow for the extra girth of 18650 cells. Maglite's motto when it comes to design seems to be “do the bare minimum of what is required”, so I would count my blessings that the MagTac even takes RCR123 cells.



I dis agree with the idea that RCR123s are the same as the more traditional 18650 type Li. One of the big differences is that the RCR123s don't require a protection circuit. They are considered safe without that added measure. I agree that it would have been nice if they made the rechargeable version so it used an 18650 based battery but if I were them I would have designed that battery so an unprotected cell wasn't long enough to work. As someone who worked in batteries we were very concerned about such things. It would be interesting to know what Maglite's thoughts were on the subject. 

Anyway, I might suggest the EC2 (I'm going to look at their other lights as well) as a bike light. He is currently happy with a light that is about 110 lumens but the run time is just as hour (Energizer Lithium Ultimate 2xAA). I think something that provides ~200-300 lumens with a balance of throw and spot would work reasonably well. The extra 18650 run time is nice for his needs. For my needs I'm OK with the Magtac run time, even on the RCR123s since I have more than one set. I can change out the batteries easily when they run dry. That and I have the Black and Decker 2x18650 LED spot light when I go for max throw


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## thedoc007 (Jan 16, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> I dis agree with the idea that RCR123s are the same as the more traditional 18650 type Li. One of the big differences is that the RCR123s don't require a protection circuit. They are considered safe without that added measure.



http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...of-lithium-chemistry-failures-in-flash-lights

RCR123s, especially if you are running them in series, are MORE dangerous than a single 18650. Protection is not "required" with either type, and neither type is "safe" if you don't care for them properly, and especially if you don't buy quality. I have no idea where you got the idea that RCR123 are inherently safer, but that is definitely not true. If they have the same chemistry, they have the same risks.


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## nitedrive (Jan 16, 2015)

thedoc007 said:


> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...of-lithium-chemistry-failures-in-flash-lights
> 
> RCR123s, especially if you are running them in series, are MORE dangerous than a single 18650. Protection is not "required" with either type, and neither type is "safe" if you don't care for them properly, and especially if you don't buy quality. I have no idea where you got the idea that RCR123 are inherently safer, but that is definitely not true. If they have the same chemistry, they have the same risks.



The LiFePO4 batteries are significantly safer as individual cells (ie used as we use NiMH rechargeable cells) vs the LCO cells.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/explaining_lithium_ion_chemistries
Also see the bottom of page 5
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~rzhao/LFP_study.pdf
It's very clear that the industry has decided that LCO Li Ion cells require external protection circuits while LFPO cells do not specifically because they are inherently safer.

Do note that while they are both "Lithium" batteries they are not the same chemistry.


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## thedoc007 (Jan 16, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> The LiFePO4 batteries are significantly safer as individual cells (ie used as we use NiMH rechargeable cells) vs the LCO cells.



That is not at all what you said earlier, though. RCR123 is just a size designator...it doesn't tell you anything about chemistry. 

Furthermore, if you check the link I posted, you'll note that the very first incident listed was with 2xRCR123, LiFePO4 chemistry. If you think they are completely safe, and don't benefit from protection, you are mistaken. 

Why do you think so many hobby stores sell LiPO bags? Granted, they are often abused, but there are MANY examples of LiFePO4 cells catching fire, usually while charging.

I just realized we're getting off topic again...sorry guys!


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## nitedrive (Jan 16, 2015)

thedoc007 said:


> That is not at all what you said earlier, though. RCR123 is just a size designator...it doesn't tell you anything about chemistry.
> 
> Furthermore, if you check the link I posted, you'll note that the very first incident listed was with 2xRCR123, LiFePO4 chemistry. If you think they are completely safe, and don't benefit from protection, you are mistaken.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I was referring 3V rechargeable cells, not just the specific size. I didn't realize that wasn't clear from what I was writing. Regardless, it is clear from the links I provided that the LFPO is considered safe by those in the industry for use without protection circuits. LPO cells are not. That doesn't mean they don't sell them or that people don't use them without the circuits. At the same time a 9V battery (or say 200 in series) can also be dangerous but manufactures don't feel they need to include protection circuits.


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## Stream (Jan 17, 2015)

nitedrive said:


> Sorry, I was referring 3V rechargeable cells, not just the specific size.



An RCR123 battery is typically 3.7V, same as an 18650.


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## nitedrive (Jan 17, 2015)

Stream said:


> An RCR123 battery is typically 3.7V, same as an 18650.



Regardless, I was referring to the LFPO cells. They are the ones that work in the Magtac and should be substitutable in devices which were designed around 3V Li primaries. I should have been more clear about the chemistry types. After all, it was clear to me since I went out of my way to buy the LFPO versions


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## sween1911 (Jan 19, 2015)

Treeguy said:


> It's crazy until you look at Maglite'target audience. I apologize for repeating what I said pages back, but Maglites are for the Joe Luncbox crowd; the guys who will buy their tools at Home Depot and maybe grab a flashlight while they are there. Maglite is recognizable and it's fine that they take alkalines because when you get to the checkout at Home Depot, there is is a wall of alkalines. Sometimes displays of alkalines in almost every aisle.This is not a mistake. This is for people who are not flashlight enthusiasts, never heard the term "alkaleaks", don't know what an 18650 is, and here's the crucial part - don't care. A Maglite and a big pack of Duracells is familiar, affordable, and leaves Joe Lunchbox, and even Soccer Mom, with the impression they has made a sound purchase. And in all truth they have.
> 
> And Joe Lunchbox outnumbers Frank Flashhaholic 100 to 1.



This. So much this. 

I bought my first 4D incan Mag 25 years ago. 
People can and do still buy 4D incan Mags by the truckload that are by and large indistinguishable from the originals. 
That fact alone is a significant accomplishment for a company.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 19, 2015)

sween1911 said:


> I bought my first 4D incan Mag 25 years ago.
> People can and do still buy 4D incan Mags by the truckload that are by and large indistinguishable from the originals.
> That fact alone is a significant accomplishment for a company.



I still have, and use, my 4D incan Maglite. One of the few lights they made that were any good, and still hold up over time. I also have a 4C that I like, but I prefer the 4D.

All my other Maglites, :thumbsdow. They still see some use, but primarily by people I think might break my good lights.


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## thinkFlashlights01 (Jan 19, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I still have, and use, my 4D incan Maglite. One of the few lights they made that were any good, and still hold up over time. I also have a 4C that I like, but I prefer the 4D.
> 
> All my other Maglites, :thumbsdow. They still see some use, but primarily by people I think might break my good lights.



I still have my 2D Maglite. :twothumbs


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## ericjohn (Feb 13, 2015)

As I have stated on this forum before, I have used both Energizer Lithium Primariy and Rayovac, Energizer and Duracell NiMH batteries in an incandescent Mini Maglite. The Lithium batteries which were useless for my portable cell phone charger, but still produced a white and powerful beam. Granted, this was with the Krypton lamp and NOT the Xenon. I don't know if the Xenon lamp could handle that much power. Has anyone ever tried doing this. The NiMH batteries produced a powerful beam as well and the Krypton bulb lasted from late December of 2005 to late April of 2006, with daily use. So I am guessing it is all right to use NiMH batteries in the incandescent models, but I would risk using Lithium, unless someone has successfully done it before. Remember the Xenon bulbs have thiiner filaments because Xenon is a heavier gas. Though they are brighter, they cannot handle as much energy as their Krypton counterparts. I still use Maglite on a regular basis and I will as much as possible. I dread the day of Mr. Tony dying (he's going to be 85 if he isn't already) and Mag Instrument possibly shutting down or at least discontinuing their incandescent line. How then will one be able to get the bi pin bulbs used in their incandescent models? Is there even a third party bulb that could be used in the Mini Maglites? What about the Mag-Num Star 2 bulbs where could we get those is Mag Instrument shuts down?


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Feb 13, 2015)

ericjohn said:


> The NiMH batteries produced a powerful beam as well and the Krypton bulb lasted from late December of 2005 to late April of 2006, with daily use. So I am guessing it is all right to use NiMH batteries in the incandescent models, but I would risk using Lithium, unless someone has successfully done it before.



I think NiMH should be better for an incandescent bulb, than alkaline. The lower voltage of NiMH should make the bulb last longer, although it won't be quite as bright. I'd worry about using lithiums, because they are higher voltage than alkaline, and it could result in shortened bulb life.

Maglite's claims of not supporting anything but alkaline always seemed bogus to me. Probably either a deal they have with Duracell, or they're just too lazy to test anything else. Their target market is dummies, so sticking with alkalines likely doesn't hurt their sales at all.


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## MidnightDistortions (Feb 15, 2015)

ericjohn said:


> As I have stated on this forum before, I have used both Energizer Lithium Primariy and Rayovac, Energizer and Duracell NiMH batteries in an incandescent Mini Maglite. The Lithium batteries which were useless for my portable cell phone charger, but still produced a white and powerful beam. Granted, this was with the Krypton lamp and NOT the Xenon. I don't know if the Xenon lamp could handle that much power. Has anyone ever tried doing this. The NiMH batteries produced a powerful beam as well and the Krypton bulb lasted from late December of 2005 to late April of 2006, with daily use. So I am guessing it is all right to use NiMH batteries in the incandescent models, but I would risk using Lithium, unless someone has successfully done it before. Remember the Xenon bulbs have thiiner filaments because Xenon is a heavier gas. Though they are brighter, they cannot handle as much energy as their Krypton counterparts. I still use Maglite on a regular basis and I will as much as possible. I dread the day of Mr. Tony dying (he's going to be 85 if he isn't already) and Mag Instrument possibly shutting down or at least discontinuing their incandescent line. How then will one be able to get the bi pin bulbs used in their incandescent models? Is there even a third party bulb that could be used in the Mini Maglites? What about the Mag-Num Star 2 bulbs where could we get those is Mag Instrument shuts down?



There's an LED upgrade for the MiniMags, at least the AA ones. I have used some third party bulbs from Radioshack but they don't last nearly as long as the Maglite brand. If you really want to keep using the incan bulbs for your Minimags, you'll have to invest in buying a ton of them. Make sure to put them in bubblewrap as well. At this point i'm not even concerned about needing LED replacements, but wait in about 5 years and i'll be wanting LED replacements for my EDC or everyday usage LED lights.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Feb 15, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> At this point i'm not even concerned about needing LED replacements, but wait in about 5 years and i'll be wanting LED replacements for my EDC or everyday usage LED lights.



Why do you think you'll need to replace the LED in your lights? Unless the LED is being over-driven and/or improperly heat-sinked (in which case you'll want to replace your whole light anyway), the lifespan of LEDs is around 50,000 hours. And when I look at the testing reports from Cree, if you use medium or low modes, they should last almost forever.

50,000 hours is 6 years of continuous use, or 12 years if you only run it constantly at night. And that's on high, so you'll need to be changing batteries every couple of hours.

I think the chance that something else will fail in your light is higher than the LED failing. I think there's an even greater chance you'll want to upgrade your light long before the LED fails.


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## MidnightDistortions (Feb 15, 2015)

Unless Led circuitry doesn't last as long as incandescent lights do which I've seen many well built to last over 30 years. It might be true flashlights will be better by the time the LED wears out but LEDs might be far cheaper and you could probably give someone that needs a light.


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## Stream (Feb 16, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Unless Led circuitry doesn't last as long as incandescent lights do which I've seen many well built to last over 30 years. It might be true flashlights will be better by the time the LED wears out but LEDs might be far cheaper and you could probably give someone that needs a light.



Of all the things to worry about, this has to be very far down the list. I would rank it just above worrying about getting replacement LEDs for those little red, blue or green power indicators on your TV, laptop, phone or tablet etc.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Feb 16, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Unless Led circuitry doesn't last as long as incandescent lights do which I've seen many well built to last over 30 years. It might be true flashlights will be better by the time the LED wears out but LEDs might be far cheaper and you could probably give someone that needs a light.



LEDs don't really burn out. After tens of thousands of hours of use, they just gradually get dimmer. The "50,000 hours life expectancy" means the LED will be only 70% as bright after 50,000 hours of use, compared to when it was new. Manufacturers normally use the 70% brightness cut-off, because that's where it might start being noticeably dimmer. But they'll continue to work well beyond that. And, if you aren't using them at their rated power output (normally 1.5-3 amps for Cree LEDs), they'll dim much slower.

When I look at the testing results, it appears that heat is far more responsible for LED aging than output/current is. Ideally, keep the junction temperature less than 85C to get the 50,000 hours. If you keep it less than 55C, there's no aging at all (this would be medium or low modes).

Of course, an LED can fail completely, but that's a failure due to something else electronic or mechanical.


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## Stream (Feb 16, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Of course, an LED can fail completely, but that's a failure due to something else electronic or mechanical.



Some early Fenix lights had this issue. I've had one PD20 and two L2Ds fail after about 1-2 years of use due to faulty electronics, likely due to heat or bad soldering, but like you say it wasn't the LED itself that failed.


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## MidnightDistortions (Feb 16, 2015)

Ah, so really there's nothing to worry about, if the light starts to get above 55C just turn the lumen level down. Got it.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Feb 16, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Ah, so really there's nothing to worry about, if the light starts to get above 55C just turn the lumen level down. Got it.



More precisely, the junction point of the LED should be kept below 85C, or 55C if you want no aging at all. But, you won't really know what the junction point temperature is, because there's no easy way to measure it. If the LED is well heat-sinked (as it is with most decent lights), you can probably judge by how hot the body of the flashlight is.

But, (to get back to Maglites), Maglites have horrible heat-sinks (at least the old ones do). So, it's possible the LED is cooking away while the body is still cool.


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## MidnightDistortions (Feb 16, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> More precisely, the junction point of the LED should be kept below 85C, or 55C if you want no aging at all. But, you won't really know what the junction point temperature is, because there's no easy way to measure it. If the LED is well heat-sinked (as it is with most decent lights), you can probably judge by how hot the body of the flashlight is.
> 
> But, (to get back to Maglites), Maglites have horrible heat-sinks (at least the old ones do). So, it's possible the LED is cooking away while the body is still cool.



Yeah, it's best to go with what works the best. So far though, the 3rd Gen 3D 625 lumen Mag is never hot or even warm to the touch but then it's usually turned on in a colder climate. Don't have a problem with the other LED Mag i got. Even if it gets too warm i'll most likely shut it off or turn it to a lower setting. But yeah, if you have a light with a bad heat sink it won't really matter when the LED burns out.. better to get rid of the light and get one with a better heatsink.


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## davidmiller (Feb 17, 2015)

I completely disagree with that i have used many different maglites over the years they are aiming at simplicity. Some of there models have 4 or 5 modes. I only need 2 on and off. I have recently got the AA mini Mag Pro led the 272 lumen model the classic one. Its american built thats important to me however I have been reading about how people have dropped these Hong Kong and China flashlights once and the things never work right my new mag light has not taken a fall yet but I have a 4 D cell one i have dropped a hundred times and the thing still works like new. The li-ion cells are very dangerous and are prone to venting even under the best care. What is the longest-running flashlight in terms of years that anyone here has had on CPF that has some how not managed to break some how from normal use. Maglite in general is made to last a long time. for my uses and many other people here they don't need a 10000 lumina helicopter spotlight in their pocket.


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## MidnightDistortions (Feb 17, 2015)

> many other people here they don't need a 10000 lumina helicopter spotlight in their pocket.



funniest comment i've seen all day.




davidmiller said:


> I completely disagree with that i have used many different maglites over the years they are aiming at simplicity. Some of there models have 4 or 5 modes. I only need 2 on and off. I have recently got the AA mini Mag Pro led the 272 lumen model the classic one. Its american built thats important to me however I have been reading about how people have dropped these Hong Kong and China flashlights once and the things never work right my new mag light has not taken a fall yet but I have a 4 D cell one i have dropped a hundred times and the thing still works like new. The li-ion cells are very dangerous and are prone to venting even under the best care. What is the longest-running flashlight in terms of years that anyone here has had on CPF that has some how not managed to break some how from normal use. Maglite in general is made to last a long time. for my uses and many other people here they don't need a 10000 lumina helicopter spotlight in their pocket.



Anyway after i got the laughter out of my system, while Maglites are not bad flashlights i've moved on to Fenix lights and there's some LED Lensers out there that are good as well. There's plenty of great lights that can take a beating and they still use the traditional AA, AAA, D ect.. cell size. In fact i'm getting the Fenix TK41 next.. kinda holding off on a pocket sized "10000 lumina helicopter spotlight" for now but i will eventually buy one. Maglites are built pretty well, but they do lag in performance compared to the other lights i've seen that run on AA cells. I still use them for rugged use and the best one i got i think is the MiniMag Pro+ which has similar performance to my LED Lenser T7, though the MiniMag is a bit longer while the T7 is shorter but bulkier. Plus the MiniMag is a bit brighter. I however expected better performance from the main Mag models though they have a bit more flood and throw but i find my smaller lights more efficient and easy to swap out batteries. D cell NiMHs are pretty expensive so for now i have been using the AA>D adapters which i may as well just use the smaller lights.


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## leon2245 (Feb 17, 2015)

The more I use my aaa mini & look around at what else is available, the more certain I am it does more of the tricks I need it to do, and less of the tricks I don't, than anything else out there, at any price.

Best all round edc & general purpose light I've ever had.


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## Stream (Feb 17, 2015)

davidmiller said:


> I have recently got the AA mini Mag Pro led the 272 lumen model the classic one. Its american built thats important to me however I have been reading about how people have dropped these Hong Kong and China flashlights once and the things never work right my new mag light has not taken a fall yet but I have a 4 D cell one i have dropped a hundred times and the thing still works like new.



American made doesn't always mean better . If you have a look around this forum you will see there are many reported quality problems with Maglite as well. As for "Hong Kong and China flashlights", they come in many different shapes and brands. Like American products, the quality will vary depending on brand and price-range. Brands like Fenix and Zebralight are very rugged, and can take a beating without any problems.



davidmiller said:


> The li-ion cells are very dangerous and are prone to venting even under the best care. What is the longest-running flashlight in terms of years that anyone here has had on CPF that has some how not managed to break some how from normal use. Maglite in general is made to last a long time. for my uses and many other people here they don't need a 10000 lumina helicopter spotlight in their pocket.



I have been using li-ion cells in my flashlights for about a decade without a single issue, so I disagree that they are very dangerous. However, buying quality cells is important. Much like when you buy replacement li-ion cells for your phone or laptop, buying cheap generic cells can be dangerous.

And I would LOVE to have a 10 000 lumen helicopter search light that also fits in my jeans pocket! lol I really want to fast forward to a time when that is possible. However, as it is, many CPFers (myself included) carry around very small flashlights clipped to the inside of our pockets in the 500 - 1000 lumen range. Besides having crazy lumen output, the advantages to these bright LEDs is that they get amazing runtimes on the lower levels. For instance, the Fenix PD35 gets about 8 hours of flat regulated runtime at 180 lumens. That's brighter than some of the big D-Cell Mag LEDs on max. And the PD35 is built like a tank, it can take a real beating, I've even dropped it from a ladder at 10ft without any issues. I would say it is definitely built to last.

I think Mags are totally fine if you don't know what you are missing. But if you are willing to take the step to higher end lights, you won't look back.


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## Keisari (Feb 18, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Before visiting this forum i thought Maglite was one of the best light brands out there. Amazingly i've been proven wrong


Even if I'm new here, I can tell you're not the only one.  I know what you mean but if I were to intentionally misunderstand... and now I feel the urge to misunderstand and twist others' words, so bear with me.

Actually, Maglite still is one of the best light _brands_. I mean, Coca-Cola is one of the best _brands_ in its field or one of the best brands overall. Or Apple. I don't want to buy anything that Mag Instrument, Apple Inc. or the Coca-Cola Company have to offer, but they are going strong as brands. That's why they can sell pretty much anything and people will buy. Of course this is an unfair comparison, as Mag seems to be a fading company and the other mentioned are in no way threatened. Even then, it's not like people won't buy crappy flashlight by the dozen 30 years from now, "because its a maglight".

What am I saying here? Well, maybe Maglite are not missing some obvious tricks. They might be doing some of this on purpose. When a company and brand reach a certain treshold value, they don't need to be the best anymore. There are just too many people anyways saying "shut up and take my money". The Apple iPhone will sell for the next seventy generations of iPhones no matter how bad they will be in the future. And I'm not saying they are bad this far, they're just not any better than their competitors' products, and there is a large customer base who believes they are. Same goes with the Mag(except their products are already outdated). An average uneducated consumer with zero common sense and no technical knowledge will almost always pick a Maglite over a "weird chinese brand" like Nitecore.

One more thing to remember is that Maglites are not as cheap everywhere as they are in the U.S. Their brand is very strong in some foreign markets where middle class slobs with too much disposable income will gladly pay 50 Euros for a basic early generation LED flashlight that's worth maybe 10, just "because its a maglight".


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## MidnightDistortions (Feb 19, 2015)

Keisari said:


> Even if I'm new here, I can tell you're not the only one.  I know what you mean but if I were to intentionally misunderstand... and now I feel the urge to misunderstand and twist others' words, so bear with me.
> 
> Actually, Maglite still is one of the best light _brands_. I mean, Coca-Cola is one of the best _brands_ in its field or one of the best brands overall. Or Apple. I don't want to buy anything that Mag Instrument, Apple Inc. or the Coca-Cola Company have to offer, but they are going strong as brands. That's why they can sell pretty much anything and people will buy. Of course this is an unfair comparison, as Mag seems to be a fading company and the other mentioned are in no way threatened. Even then, it's not like people won't buy crappy flashlight by the dozen 30 years from now, "because its a maglight".
> 
> ...



It really depends on how you look at it. Higher end flashlights (that blow Maglite's top flashlight model out of the water and then some) are more expensive to get, within reason of course. Today i certainly wouldn't pay 50 Euros for a Mag when that money is well suited better for a better, more efficient light. I don't know how much foreign countries pay for a Fenix or any other high end light but Mags cost about the same here as any other well respected LED light manufactures, many of them have different modes and often times does better than the Mags. Maybe slightly, the only advantage the Mags have is longer run times on D cells (on the higher lumen settings) but the other lights do much better with low lumen outputs from AA batteries. But i would do just as well, ordering a 16 pack of Eneloops dedicated to the TK41 from Fenix and you got plenty of different modes that can shorten or strengthen your run times.

Of course Mag does provide good run times for their lights, but often times the quality is diminished when you want that extra light power other lights do much better at a very reasonable size. Not only that Mags first LED models had horrid heat sink problems rendering the lights of poor quality. I don't really know if they did fix their heat sink problems only because i don't leave the light running 24/7 but if they fail, i'll probably mod them or give them away if someone wants to fix them up. I'll keep the ones that still operate over time but i think my investments in Fenix and other flashlight manufacturers will continue to run over the years. Not only that my T7 LED Lenser, that runs on 4AAA cells produces the same (if not higher) lumens as the 2D LED Mag. The run times on that flashlight is pretty good all things considered. Those were alkaline cells but now i'm testing out NiMH cells to see how well they hold up to the challenge but it's a great light and i can EDC it! Heck, i can EDC my LD41 Fenix. It's a little hard and awkward to try to EDC a 2D Mag lol. I will admit though, their AA LED Pro+ probably the best light iv'e seen Mag produce but i can only hope the heat sink in that is good enough for the LED to survive over the years. If not i'll probably fix/mod that light. Got it for $25 too.

Li-ion built flashlights though might be on shaky ground, but mostly because of many folks consider li-ion cells to be dangerous. I still want one since they can do more than 1000lumens that i will probably never need but if you treat li-ion cells right, they can have a longer run time than regular AA alkaline/NiMH cells. I think Mag is missing some opportunities to build better flashlights but at this point i'm not too worried since there are other brands that do better and i can show off to others .


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## idleprocess (Feb 19, 2015)

Keisari said:


> Actually, Maglite still is one of the best light _brands_.



*Nobody* has mass-market flashlight brand recognition like Maglite. Sadly, this asset may not be sufficient to keep them going much longer unless they start to adapt faster and can regain their shelf space in said mass market.


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## Lynx_Arc (Feb 19, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> *Nobody* has mass-market flashlight brand recognition like Maglite. Sadly, this asset may not be sufficient to keep them going much longer unless they start to adapt faster and can regain their shelf space in said mass market.



I don't think Mag can recover the loss of shelf space that has occurred as other more interesting useful and competitive lights have supplanted them. Mag must come out with new products instead of reinventing the same old ones or coming out with gimmicky ones. I forsee mag being out of business in the next 10 years if they don't change fast, perhaps the brand will survive bought out by someone and used to sell chinese made flashlights. Imagine Fenix lights sold under the Mag label what would happen... mind blowing.


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## more_vampires (Feb 19, 2015)

Maglite should merge with Surefire and become *Magfire*.


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## Stream (Feb 19, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Maglite should merge with Surefire and become *Magfire*.



Oh man, that would be awful. Sounds like one of those countless cheap Chinese copycat brands! lol


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## more_vampires (Feb 19, 2015)

Stream said:


> Oh man, that would be awful. Sounds like one of those countless cheap Chinese copycat brands! lol



..but it would be a high MF quality light!  Those MF American lights, China just can't keep up!


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## Stream (Feb 19, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> ..but it would be a high MF quality light!  Those MF American lights, China just can't keep up!



Not to mention all the MF snobs


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## idleprocess (Feb 19, 2015)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I don't think Mag can recover the loss of shelf space that has occurred as other more interesting useful and competitive lights have supplanted them. Mag must come out with new products instead of reinventing the same old ones or coming out with gimmicky ones. I forsee mag being out of business in the next 10 years if they don't change fast, perhaps the brand will survive bought out by someone and used to sell chinese made flashlights. Imagine Fenix lights sold under the Mag label what would happen... mind blowing.



I think they could do OK with their largely evolutionary approach if they brought the price on the new L/LX models much closer to where the "classic" lineup sat, straightened out some of their apparent thermal issues, and corrected some of the weirdness on their UI I'm hearing about. Otherwise, I seriously doubt they're going to make up on margin the volume they're giving up.


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## Lynx_Arc (Feb 19, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> I think they could do OK with their largely evolutionary approach if they brought the price on the new L/LX models much closer to where the "classic" lineup sat, straightened out some of their apparent thermal issues, and corrected some of the weirdness on their UI I'm hearing about. Otherwise, I seriously doubt they're going to make up on margin the volume they're giving up.


I think if they don't do something that more and more stores will stop carrying Mag lights altogether. It could be that they make more money selling internationally than in the states. Let's face it... Mag could make a 2+ mode clicky 2AA model and start making multi mode 2D cell mag lites. They could even source a series 3AA adapter and put on it an extender and design a 2D mag to use 2 or 3 cells such that you don't have to buy D cells if you don't want to.


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## ForrestChump (Feb 19, 2015)

Out with the old.


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## GasganoFJ60 (Feb 28, 2015)

Being such a new member here I feel what I may say will not help me make any friends. But reading some of the ill-toned comments and replies in this thread, and others, makes me think I can get away with some of it and might even make a friend or two. 

I just read through this whole thread and couldn't help but chuckle most of the time.

First let me state I'm a Maglite fan and have used them for probably 20 years or so. I have more Mags than any other brand. I always come back to them because, well, other brands just flat out break or are too costly to maintain. 

I will agree, Maglite is a few years behind the times and that many of y'alls posts are justified. Id love to see Mag catch up and even pass the competition with redesigns and new designs. 

But some of y'alls comments about Maglite just a bit...off...to me. Just harsh in a tone as if Maglite owes you something. 2 or 3 comments had a tone of animosity to them as if the corporate entity Maglite used to bully you at school and stole your girlfriend. 1 had a spiteful rage that sorta hinted Maglite once ran over your dog and laughed at you in regards to it. Or maybe Maglite was that drunk uncle who used to visit you, unwanted, at night, and...and well....did bad things to you. 
What gives?

I fully understand this site is mostly enthusiasts and there is a good amount of biased involved but that is present in any niche circle. What makes that great is y'all have run all the tests, tried many options, and have a general idea of what does and does not work. 

Many comments had a sad tone to them. Bitter-sweet, almost. General "yeah, I love my old Mag but since they dont use THIS, THIS, or THIS(all VERY SPECIFIC fixs...I just cant go with them anymore."

I wish those people would email Maglite with their input. 
I bet a huge lack of user feedback may be part of the reason they've fallen behind. 
If Average Joe is content with the way Mags have been for the last few years, why would they have any innovate thinking to report back? They don't. Cause they're happy as is. If no one is telling them about issues falling short, why would they change something that appears to be working? No bad news is good news, right?
But some of y'all seem like some brilliant people with great ideas that are just wasted effort in the form of talking smack on a forum. 
Who knows, they might throw some free products or demos at you for testing? Longshot, but who knows?
Heck, you might even get a job offer. The worst they can do is nothing. 
In college I got offered a job from the University just by simply offering a good idea I had for a department. They said, "Hey, that's great, wanna do it for us? We'll pay you." Heck yes. 

I'm just saying. Its worth a shot. You've already taken the time to gripe about them down to the masses, why not complain upwards and perhaps see some results?


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## idleprocess (Feb 28, 2015)

GasganoFJ60 said:


> But some of y'alls comments about Maglite just a bit...off...to me. Just harsh in a tone as if Maglite owes you something.
> [...]


During the early days of CPF, Maglite had a history of litigating rather than innovating: after the Solitaire in 1988 it took until 2006 to take their first tentative steps into LED with their C/D LED drop-in modules and the mini-maglite LED; 2010 to introduce new LED-specific models. They have litigated far and wide, striking at smaller makes that dared to make anything that looked like their products, got anything close to their patents, or bore a passing resemblance to some of their absurd trademarks _(i.e. the solitaire which gave them "ownership" of a minimal cylinder big enough to encapsulate a AAA, switch, light source, optics)_. Much of this litigation was abusive and intended to harass small competitors with limited resources out of the market. While this behavior is an inevitability in the corporate sphere - _especially with regards to trademarks that must be aggressively defended in order to remain valid_ - it leaves a bad taste in the mouth of those who pay attention, especially in the enthusiast sphere where many of the small makers emerged from the community.

I suspect that maglite pays discreet attention attention to CPF since it's a big collection of flashlight enthusiasts, but I have yet to see them engage the CPF community directly.


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## GasganoFJ60 (Feb 28, 2015)

Well that explains it I reckon. 

Not to sound mean but isn't that just sour grapes?

You have to be very careful when producing products. 

Corporations sue each other all the time. Apple and Microsoft are always throwing hits at one another. Apple just a few days ago had to pay some small software company a couple hundred million for infringement. I'm sure they'll get sued again before the quarter is over with and they just might sue someone themselves. 
A quick search showed me that Surefire has sued other light companies as well. They still seem pretty well received around here. 
Why is that?
I'm not saying its right. I can see how it can be seen as bullying but a dog has to protect its porch. 
I'm all for the small business and supporting the little guy but if Maglite, or Surfire, whoever, does something first, that's that. 
If you want to compete, you gotta do better by improving or doing differently.


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## MidnightDistortions (Feb 28, 2015)

When there is little competition for Mag in brick and mortar stores like Target and Sears it's easy for some folks to think that Mag is the best. I wonder how would Mag do if Fenix (or other like manufacturers) lights were sold in the same stores. Mag seems to somewhat ignore flashlight enthusiasts, though i think they did really well with the AA MiniMag Pro plus. It offers similar lumen levels to their basic LED 2D light, while the 2D might be better, it's nice to have a good 2AA light.


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## idleprocess (Feb 28, 2015)

GasganoFJ60 said:


> Well that explains it I reckon.
> 
> Not to sound mean but isn't that just sour grapes?


Just giving my take on it as someone that watched some of it happen without being too involved.

One could argue that there are some troubling issues in the law around patents and trademarks that should never have been granted. Software is full of some of the most egregious examples where a company labors to develop something from their own brain trust and purse only to be sued by an entity with a patent that vaguely describes the same outcome - often without any real-world implementation that the defendant could have reasonably been aware of. Rather than protecting specific _methods_ that were painstakingly proven, patents are now allowing ownership of _outcomes_ by making incredibly broad yet vague claims. I believe this lies at the root of the some the angst against Maglite - some of their patent and trademark lawsuits have seemed without solid basis ... aimed not at protecting investment in innovation nor preventing consumer confusion so much using the legal system as a cudgel against smaller competitors with scarcely the resources to develop and produce, to say nothing of defend themselves from frivolous lawsuits.



GasganoFJ60 said:


> A quick search showed me that Surefire has sued other light companies as well. They still seem pretty well received around here.


Indeed. They arguably bled an up-an-coming competitor - PentagonLight - out of existence via a patent-infringment lawsuit and a false-advertising claim.

Unlike Maglite, Surefire makes what are generally considered to be excellent products, has continuously improved their offerings, and engages with the community.


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## bladesmith3 (Mar 1, 2015)

when I became a cop in 1980 the maglight was almost a legend. so strong and expensive. around $20


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## Stream (Mar 1, 2015)

GasganoFJ60 said:


> First let me state I'm a Maglite fan and have used them for probably 20 years or so. I have more Mags than any other brand. I always come back to them because, well, other brands just flat out break or are too costly to maintain.



Other brands can run on high capacity rechargeable li-ion cells with great runtimes, meaning very low cost to run and maintain. Other brands can be dropped from 12ft several times without any issues. Drop your 3D Mag from 4ft once and you could have a bad flickering problem. Even without dropping them, Maglites are often plagued with flickering and faulty switches, so I disagree that their quality is so outstanding and unsurpassed by other brands. I still have a few Maglites laying around the house, but I never find myself coming back to them simply because they have nothing to offer that would make them viable options for my daily uses. It has been 10 years since I EDCed a MiniMag, it was my first quality flashlight, and I still have it for sentimental reasons. However, since I started using high-end brands (such as Streamlight, Fenix, Zebralight etc.) I have never looked back. 



GasganoFJ60 said:


> I will agree, Maglite is a few years behind the times and that many of y'alls posts are justified. Id love to see Mag catch up and even pass the competition with redesigns and new designs.



This is what I have been saying. The problem with Maglite is that they are too expensive for Average Joe, who can now choose from a large selection of cheap Chinese lights that outperform Maglites for less than half the price in brick and mortar stores. While on the high-end side of the spectrum Maglite is fast losing shelf-space to LedLenser. And for people who buy their lights online, popular brands like Fenix and Nitecore are common choices. In short, Mag is a dinosaur that is doing too little too late in terms of innovation and competitive pricing.


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## GasganoFJ60 (Mar 1, 2015)

Stream said:


> Other brands can run on high capacity rechargeable li-ion cells with great runtimes, meaning very low cost to run and maintain. Other brands can be dropped from 12ft several times without any issues. Drop your 3D Mag from 4ft once and you could have a bad flickering problem. Even without dropping them, Maglites are often plagued with flickering and faulty switches, so I disagree that their quality is so outstanding and unsurpassed by other brands. I still have a few Maglites laying around the house, but I never find myself coming back to them simply because they have nothing to offer that would make them viable options for my daily uses. It has been 10 years since I EDCed a MiniMag, it was my first quality flashlight, and I still have it for sentimental reasons. However, since I started using high-end brands (such as Streamlight, Fenix, Zebralight etc.) I have never looked back.



Ive dropped my Mags plenty of times. My oldest 3D has a slightly bent lens cap ring from hitting concrete after falling off the roof of a lifted truck a friend and I were installing flood lights on. Still working when I picked it up off the driveway. The original incan bulb didn't even break. And I have several Mags, from minis up to a 6d, none of them flicker. 
I have a feeling the flickering reputation is spread by forums. Its one of those "1 light messes up the work/reputation of 100 good ones" issue. I see that happen quite a bit on automotive forums I'm a member of. One guy posts that he developed a strange oil leak or something and from then on everyone makes claims to be cautious of that particular Year/make/model care cause "its gonna leak on you."

Who knows. I'm just saying I haven't had that happen to me.

I have tried higher-end lights. In high school I got a Boker with a P60 and 123As. I've easily spent twice what I paid for the initial light on replacing the bulbs and batteries in the few years I EDCd it. 
I've received 2 Surefire G2s as gifts. Both of those burnt out before the first set of batteries were dead. Gave one away. Still have one for sentimental reasons. 
Ive been reading a lot of talk about Fenix on here so I checked out their site. After looking at their spec charts, mainly at the output vs modes vs run-time vs price to the newest MagLEDs I see Fenix only winning by a few points in some comparisons.
I will say I like the waterproof level claims of Fenix lights and the "SUPER ECO" modes(that drop down to about 5lms or so) is pretty neat and definitely to their credit. But who's to say Mag cant implement the same into their 4th Gen series of LEDs and still keep the prices the similar? 
How hard could it be?
Waterproofing for example; add thicker O-rings? Double-Up on O-ring count? 
I've done plumbing and irrigation work and Ive been surprised at the small size of standardized O-rings holding back 40-100+ PSI of water. It wouldn't be that hard for Mag to do the same, IMO.



I will say Ive been impressed by Fenix from what Ive been reading and may have to get me one in the near future, if someone can recommend a good one. But I know I'll more than likely be falling back to the Mags.


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## MidnightDistortions (Mar 1, 2015)

I have a flickering problem with one of my 2D Mags but it's only if it's bumped or moving around. If it's stationary it's all good. If Mag does a better job at keeping the max settings and offers lower lumen levels like a moon mode on their D sized lights they could outperform the Fenix lights on the lower settings, which on the TK41 specs (which has been updated with brighter/longer runtimes) at 10 lumens (the updated, U2 has 15 lumens) the light works for 240 hours. You probably won't get much out of the lumen levels, unless you just need some low level light to look through your bag in your tent or whatever but Fenix has some impressive lumens/runtimes for using AA cells.

Mags do offer more higher lumens with longer runtimes for the D cell form factor but still lacks in longer runtimes on lower settings which the Fenix offers. So far on 3D cells you get 117 hours for about 50 lumens which is yet, higher lumens but they could go to about 30 lumens which i think would be more comparable to the Fenix's lower lumen settings. One thing i will say Mags are good for is using them as candles and letting them sit on the counter or something when the power is out so you don't need to grab a flashlight every time you want to look for something in the room or want to read something and the smaller flashlight batteries will die out quicker when the light is left running. Even on 4AA (regular Eneloops) on a 2D Mag you get around 8 hours on peak level so that's a bit better than what the Fenix offers around the same range.


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## maglite mike (Mar 1, 2015)

I've dropped my 3d and ml 125 maglites dozens of times and never had any issues. when poop hits the fan there is no better light then the 3d led maglite. For only $20 or so on Amazon ,80 hr run time, one mode, durable, bright enough for most applications and common batteries. In disaster and emergency situations I like to KISS ( Keep It Simple Stupid) .


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## Keisari (Mar 2, 2015)

GasganoFJ60 said:


> I have tried higher-end lights. In high school I got a Boker with a P60 and 123As. I've easily spent twice what I paid for the initial light on replacing the bulbs and batteries in the few years I EDCd it.
> I've received 2 Surefire G2s as gifts. Both of those burnt out before the first set of batteries were dead. Gave one away. Still have one for sentimental reasons.


The lights from "Surefire era" were expensive to operate and I never had those. Incandescent Maglites were my choice back then.

Things have changed, and most of the time, expensive premium lights are not expensive to operate anymore as most of them are LED and li-ion based.


> Ive been reading a lot of talk about Fenix on here so I checked out their site. After looking at their spec charts, mainly at the output vs modes vs run-time vs price to the newest MagLEDs I see Fenix only winning by a few points in some comparisons.


It's not even necessary to look at premium brands like Fenix to beat Maglite, not to mention the really expensive names. Mags don't really challenge even $10 generic Chinese flashlights anymore.  Disclaimer: This opinion is exaggerated and based on the European prices of Maglites. 3D LED is 50€ locally.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Mar 2, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> Unlike Maglite, Surefire makes what are generally considered to be excellent products, has continuously improved their offerings, *and engages with the community*.



I have to say, this is something that also really strikes me about MagLite. Is it that they are so arrogant, or blinded that they don't part take in online communities such as CPF, BLF and others?


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## Stream (Mar 2, 2015)

GasganoFJ60 said:


> I will say Ive been impressed by Fenix from what Ive been reading and may have to get me one in the near future, if someone can recommend a good one. But I know I'll more than likely be falling back to the Mags.



The only reason you fall back to Mags is because they are familiar, and because you have limited experience with other brands. For your first Fenix, you may want to look at an LD41 since it runs on regular AA batteries. You can also run it on AA Ni-MH rechargeables. It costs $76,95 at fenix-store.com. If you want to move into Li-Ion territory, I can highly recommend the PD35 which runs on one 18650 cell. It gets fantastic runtimes, and has a turbo mode that will blast 960 lumens. It's small and easy to carry; it's shorter than a 2AA MiniMag, albeit fatter. It costs $69,95 at fenix-store. 

It's important that you get a good charger and quality 18650 cells. I would recommend AW or Fenix brand 3400mAh 18650 cells, and perhaps a Nitecore i4 charger--it has four charging slots and can also charge Ni-MH cells. A word of caution, though, be wary of the cheap 18650 cells with overstated capacities that you often find on eBay; they can be dangerous.


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## Stream (Mar 2, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> I have a flickering problem with one of my 2D Mags but it's only if it's bumped or moving around. If it's stationary it's all good.



I have the same problem with a 3D Mag with an XP-G2 dropin. I found this old thread from '07 that may have solved the issue:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-flickering-when-turning-head-any-suggestions

When I have more time I'm going to tinker with my 3D Mag, and see if this will work.


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## nitedrive (Mar 6, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> During the early days of CPF, Maglite had a history of litigating rather than innovating: after the Solitaire in 1988 it took until 2006 to take their first tentative steps into LED with their C/D LED drop-in modules and the mini-maglite LED; 2010 to introduce new LED-specific models. They have litigated far and wide, striking at smaller makes that dared to make anything that looked like their products, got anything close to their patents, or bore a passing resemblance to some of their absurd trademarks _(i.e. the solitaire which gave them "ownership" of a minimal cylinder big enough to encapsulate a AAA, switch, light source, optics)_. Much of this litigation was abusive and intended to harass small competitors with limited resources out of the market. While this behavior is an inevitability in the corporate sphere - _especially with regards to trademarks that must be aggressively defended in order to remain valid_ - it leaves a bad taste in the mouth of those who pay attention, especially in the enthusiast sphere where many of the small makers emerged from the community.
> 
> I suspect that maglite pays discreet attention attention to CPF since it's a big collection of flashlight enthusiasts, but I have yet to see them engage the CPF community directly.



The litigation is perhaps sad but understandable once you understand copyright and trademark law. There are two ways to defend against a trademark case. The first is to show that your product doesn't actually violate the trade dress of the competing product. The other is to show that your product is no different than a number of competing products that also violate the same aspect of trade dress. That is you show that Maglite wasn't willing to enforce their trade dress thus they gave it up. This latter case is why Ford went after Ferrari for the F150 race car, Bose went after Thiel for the 2.2 speaker (Theil is a very high end and small volume brand, like the Ford F-150 truck vs the Ferrari F150 F1 car no enthusiast will confuse the two products... but that isn't what the law says). Sadly, because of the way the law works sometimes small companies who really aren't a threat to the big guys are forced to change product names etc due to the threat of a law suit. At the same time the big companies might not actually be worried about a small company (say Maglite vs a small time vendor around here). However, if say Brinkman can show that Maglite didn't go after SolarPowerForceLites for their light, Brinkman can claim their similar light is also OK. The law often times has to treat all situations the same even if the whole picture isn't. To that end the court sees failure to defend against a small vendor proof that Maglite doesn't intend to defend against a big one.


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## wjv (Mar 12, 2015)

Many of the newer lights can survive a lot more than just "being dropped"

Fenix TK51 Torture Test (it's only ~50 seconds long, but is a GREAT video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIkObHBV_Cw


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## bdogps (Mar 23, 2015)

http://youtu.be/mT6M_9_OmWg


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## Stream (Mar 23, 2015)

bdogps said:


> http://youtu.be/mT6M_9_OmWg



Haha, "the best flashlight there is!" Even the reporter laughed when she said that, adding "she's still saying that after 37 years?" 

Maglica is an old man set in his ways, and unfortunately that is going to be the company's undoing. Mag became a success because it was an improvement over the similar Kel-Lite, but that was 37 years ago. Much has happened since then. Maglite's attempts at innovation have been too tentative, and have come too late. 

Today I noticed that Maglite was completely gone from the shelves of one of the big box stores here in Sweden. In its place remained LedLenser and a bunch of Chinese brands. Mag is a sinking ship.


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## maglite mike (Mar 23, 2015)

That Fenix tk51 torture test is impressive although that was not a true drop test as it was encased in a block of ice. There are a ton of Maglite torture tests that are similar. Watch the video from maglite above of a mack truck driving over the maglite. Also comparing a $160 fenix to a $20-$45 maglite isn't apple to apples.


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## MidnightDistortions (Mar 23, 2015)

Stream said:


> Haha, "the best flashlight there is!" Even the reporter laughed when she said that, adding "she's still saying that after 37 years?"




Well technically Mags in the USA might be still the top seller. Most of the other brands are plastic or people don't know enough about them so they stick to buying Mags. The Energizer lanterns look interesting though, i wanted to pick one of them eventually. Wish more brick and mortar stores carried LedLenser and Fenix brands, but i think consumers are sticking true to USA brand stuff.


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## Stream (Mar 24, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Well technically Mags in the USA might be still the top seller. Most of the other brands are plastic or people don't know enough about them so they stick to buying Mags.



Maglite's market share is dwindling, even in the USA. I disagree that most of the competition is plastic; that information seems a bit outdated to me given how extremely common aluminum body flashlights have gotten. Even the cheap $2 flashlights use aluminum/metal bodies these days. 

As for brand recognition, and loyalty to US made stuff: this is something that probably applies mostly to old people. Sort of like the sweet old lady at the plant who insisted Mag was the "best flashlight there is". Brand recognition can only get you so far. If you fall behind the times, and become obsolete, it won't take long for people to forget you. Remember cassette tapes? Did we ever think there would come a time when people wouldn't even know or recognize a cassette? Believe it or not, but there are young people today who have never seen one, and do not know what they are. And much like cassette tapes, the heyday of Mag was during the 80s and 90s. 

While I admire Anthony Maglica's commitment to domestic production, there is no doubt that his inability to keep up with the times has hurt the company. Their switch to LED came about a decade too late, and I wouldn't be surprised if Maglica thought for a long time that LED would simply be a phase. Sort of like the people who once believed (or still believe) that digital is just a phase, and that people would return to vinyl once they all came to their senses again.


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## maglite mike (Mar 24, 2015)

Stream, Although I agree with much of your statement about maglite waiting too long to jump into the LED race, I think they still have the name, decent market share (at least in usa) and there new product line is competitive and more then adequate for the Avg flashlight user. I think they lost some ground they may never get back but I also feel they are now doing enough to stay alive and well.


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## Stream (Mar 25, 2015)

Mike, I think their products are a little too expensive for the average flashlight user. Don't forget that Mag's success is based on the price point of their incan line. Had they gotten into the LED race ten years earlier they might have figured out a way to bring down their prices by now. As it is, flashlights costing less than half will often boast sturdy aluminum, water resistant bodies and sometimes twice the lumen output or more. But I honestly don't think the average flashlight consumer looks at more than the price tag. When it comes to being competitive, price is everything. So I disagree that their new product line is competitive.

I agree that Mag still has a large market share, and brand recognition, but my point is that this is shrinking both in the US and elsewhere. And in my opinion, Mag is not doing enough to keep their market share from shrinking even further. There isn't an abundance of information on this out there, but I found a couple of articles that confirm Maglite losing market share. 

The first article from NBC News confirms much of what has been observed by posters in this thread, namely that Mag is losing shelf space as many big retailers in the US devote more and more space to cheaper Chinese imports of increasing quality. It also mentions that Mag has almost entirely lost the professional and industrial market to a handful of US competitors who source some or all of their products overseas. 

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38025260/...ossible-be-all-american-company/#.VRKkTuFRLn8

The second, and most recent article (July last year), also mentions Maglite losing market share.

http://www.bizjournals.com/albuquer...er-shines-light-on-social-media.html?page=all


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## sween1911 (Mar 25, 2015)

To stay with the spirit of the thread, it seems we're hitting two DIFFERENT points that we should make clear:

1) The original question: "missing some obvious tricks"... could Maglite be doing a better job bringing their products inline with current technology? Sure. Using the old tower-spring-loaded-focusing mechanism and trying to run an LED with poor heatsinking is probably something that we see. A 3D Maglite up to today's standards should be throwing out 1000+ lumens given the XM-L2's we have today, heatsinked, efficient and bombproof, have multiple levels and multiple battery options in those giant tubes. There's lots of things they could do. No doubt about it. Given their substantial manufacturing process though, I'd imagine that's easier said than done. 

2) Are Maglites not "good lights"? Not at all. More and better technology exists, but something that was state of the art 20-30 years ago doesn't magically stop being decent just because there are other options available today. Today, you can pick up an incan 3D Mag and go to town in stock form and get the job done. Yes, there are more impact resistant, brighter lights with more levels, but I personally have changed tires, walked in the woods, gone on roadtrips, illuminated street signs, found my way through buildings with no power, investigated suspicious noises with an incan 3D/4D/5D Maglite and have never felt under-equipped. I've dropped them down concrete stairs and they haven't missed a beat. They're not perfect, but that doesn't mean they're not "good".


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## Stream (Mar 25, 2015)

sween1911 said:


> Today, you can pick up an incan 3D Mag and go to town in stock form and get the job done. Yes, there are more impact resistant, brighter lights with more levels, but I personally have changed tires, walked in the woods, gone on roadtrips, illuminated street signs, found my way through buildings with no power, investigated suspicious noises with an incan 3D/4D/5D Maglite and have never felt under-equipped.



I've done much of that with an incan MiniMag!  And I always felt like I had a bright light with me that was up for most tasks. Maybe it's lumen blindness, but today I can't figure out how I got by with that weak yellow beam, not to mention the constant bulb changes and rapidly dimming light as the batteries got weaker. I can't tell you how awesome it was when I got my first 3D Mag, that thing was super bright compared to my MiniMag. I still have both lights, the 3D has gotten an XP-G2 dropin, and the MiniMag has a Terralux TLE 5EX dropin.


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## sween1911 (Mar 25, 2015)

Stream said:


> I've done much of that with an incan MiniMag!  And I always felt like I had a bright light with me that was up for most tasks. Maybe it's lumen blindness, but today I can't figure out how I got by with that weak yellow beam, not to mention the constant bulb changes and rapidly dimming light as the batteries got weaker. I can't tell you how awesome it was when I got my first 3D Mag, that thing was super bright compared to my MiniMag. I still have both lights, the 3D has gotten an XP-G2 dropin, and the MiniMag has a Terralux TLE 5EX dropin.



Right there with you, my EDC back in the day (mid to late 90's) was a 2AAA Minimag with the clip superglued in the bezel-down configuration. Tres Chic!
And I also wonder how did I get along with that weak yellow ringy beam! And only one level! How did we survive?! Most of the Mags are relagated to support roles these days with the exception of a 4D/Terralux mounted just inside the basement door.


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## Stream (Mar 25, 2015)

Yes, how did we survive lol. A 2AA MiniMag (which is what I carried) is only 12 lumens, and a 3D mag is somewhere in the 20-30 lumen range. Very underwhelming by modern standards, but shockingly adequate for most tasks. Today I consider anything under 100 lumens to be very dim, but this is mostly due to lumen blindness. Prior to owning a Maglite, I had no experience with quality brands, so it takes me back whenever I hold one. There's something kinda charming about that ol' ringy and yellow beam. It almost makes me want to go camping with a bunch of incan Mags lol. Would make a fascinating experience for sure! And with the eyes already adjusted for the dark, they would probably seem like light canons .


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## more_vampires (Mar 25, 2015)

sween1911 said:


> Right there with you, my EDC back in the day (mid to late 90's) was a 2AAA Minimag with the clip superglued in the bezel-down configuration. Tres Chic!
> And I also wonder how did I get along with that weak yellow ringy beam! And only one level! How did we survive?! Most of the Mags are relagated to support roles these days with the exception of a 4D/Terralux mounted just inside the basement door.



We survived by taking a bath and intentionally plunging our flashlights into the hot bath water. In the 1980's, the Mags would survive. There wasn't much competition in that game from the regular stuff that you could get. My first true flashlight love was the AAx2 minimag, in the bath tub. In the shower with the lights out.

Sorry, Greta. I'm trying to keep it family oriented. Hope I didn't cross a line.

If you can take a hot bath with a cold flashlight, it might survive the clothes washing machine.


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## Stream (Apr 5, 2015)

So last night I tried an incan 2XAA MiniMag I had lying around. Indoors in pitch black it is perfectly adequate for most tasks, but as soon as I took it out to the backyard it was pretty much drowned out by any ambient light (mostly moonlight lol). Close up it was ok, but at a distance it washed out. Back in the day, I would primarily use a MiniMag for close up to medium distance tasks, which I guess is why it felt adequate. I had a rechargeable halogen spotlight as my big guns, later to be replaced by a Streamlight TL-3 xenon with a pair of Li-Ion AW 17500s :naughty:


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## maglite mike (Apr 5, 2015)

And now even the maglite solitaire will fulfill 90 percent of daily light needs. Maglite is back.


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## GasganoFJ60 (Apr 5, 2015)

maglite mike said:


> And now even the maglite solitaire will fulfill 90 percent of daily light needs. Maglite is back.





I can agree but I am really disappointed with the brief run time of the LED Solitaire. The incan, while its only 2 lumens, has a run time of 3hrs and 45min, according to Mags website. While its higher in lumens than a 2 C cell incan mag, that 1.5hr run time is a bit bad. I wish Mag would do some sort of a multi-mode on for 25% power as they have on the other models. 

Mag has replaced my Boker/Surefire lights as EDCs for sure. 
Im juggling between the standard 2 AA LED or the 2AAA LED.
Im also awaiting an XL200 in the mail to see how it fares.


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## Stream (Apr 5, 2015)

maglite mike said:


> And now even the maglite solitaire will fulfill 90 percent of daily light needs. Maglite is back.



The solitaire is the only maglite I would say was almost completely useless as an incan. I remember a friend had one on her key chain, it could barely light up your palm. Now as an LED light boasting 37 lumens it should indeed be more than enough for most daily tasks. Still, it doesn't beat the much smaller E05 with 85 lumens on max, and three levels to choose from. Both lights cost about the same.


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## GasganoFJ60 (Apr 5, 2015)

Stream said:


> The solitaire is the only maglite I would say was almost completely useless as an incan. I remember a friend had one on her key chain, it could barely light up your palm. Now as an LED light boasting 37 lumens it should indeed be more than enough for most daily tasks. Still, it doesn't beat the much smaller E05 with 85 lumens on max, and three levels to choose from. Both lights cost about the same.



I agree. 
I have an incan on my keychain for quaint/last resort situations. 
In a pitch black room, id be glad to have it. If one was outside with a full moon, it would be halfway drowned out by moonlight.


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## maglite mike (Apr 5, 2015)

Moon light mode would be a nice feature for the maglite solitaire led . The xl 200 is a great light. The acelerometer feature to control the brightness is awesome.


GasganoFJ60 said:


> I can agree but I am really disappointed with the brief run time of the LED Solitaire. The incan, while its only 2 lumens, has a run time of 3hrs and 45min, according to Mags website. While its higher in lumens than a 2 C cell incan mag, that 1.5hr run time is a bit bad. I wish Mag would do some sort of a multi-mode on for 25% power as they have on the other models.
> 
> Mag has replaced my Boker/Surefire lights as EDCs for sure.
> Im juggling between the standard 2 AA LED or the 2AAA LED.
> Im also awaiting an XL200 in the mail to see how it fares.


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## maglite mike (Apr 5, 2015)

The Fenix e05 looks like a nice light but it does cost 25 percent more then the maglite solitaire and weighs. 9 ounces vs the solitaire at. 2 ounces. Nice specs though.


Stream said:


> The solitaire is the only maglite I would say was almost completely useless as an incan. I remember a friend had one on her key chain, it could barely light up your palm. Now as an LED light boasting 37 lumens it should indeed be more than enough for most daily tasks. Still, it doesn't beat the much smaller E05 with 85 lumens on max, and three levels to choose from. Both lights cost about the same.


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## GasganoFJ60 (Apr 5, 2015)

maglite mike said:


> Moon light mode would be a nice feature for the maglite solitaire led . The xl 200 is a great light. The acelerometer feature to control the brightness is awesome.



I suggest emailing Maglite with your input. 
Do you register your lights with Maglite?
Every light Ive purchased in the last 6 months I have registered with Maglite and informed them of my input. I feel the more feedback they get, the better. I understand Maglite has fallen behind but Id like to see them come back with a vengeance. 

With the XL200, I eagerly await the its arrival. I got an ML300 and while it is super bright, the initial use of "playing" around with it, using Energizer rechargeables has left me without it in the last few weeks. The energizers only have 2500MAH and needless to say they didn't last long. 
Recently, Ive been getting home from work late and have been using my lights for tinkering with a project Jeep and Ive been putting lots of hours on them. 
I hope the XL200 9.08 day run time serves me better. 
Id like to make it an EDC but I got a deal with this one on Amazon and it doesn't with a clip. I hope maglite starts selling its XL and Magtac accessories as separate package instead with certain purchases. 
I guess Ill have to make a new leather sheath/pouch for it as I didnt my 2AA Minimaglite.


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## Stream (Apr 6, 2015)

maglite mike said:


> The Fenix e05 looks like a nice light but it does cost 25 percent more then the maglite solitaire and *weighs. 9 ounces vs the solitaire at. 2 ounces.* Nice specs though.



Not sure where you are getting that from, but they weigh exactly the same: 24 grams with one AAA alkaline battery. Not only that, but the E05 is 14.5 mm shorter, has multiple levels and much better runtime. It's hard to beat the 4 hours 15 min you get on the 25 lumen medium level of the E05. I hardly ever change the battery on that thing, despite using it quite a few times now and then. The price according to Maglite's website is $19.50, the E05 sells for $19.95 at fenix-store. I know the Solitaire can be found for less than $19.50, though. I have seen $13.58 on Amazon, if I can find a retailer that also has reasonable international shipping then I might consider getting one. What I like about the Solitaire is the throw, if only it had multiple levels and a more efficient emitter it would be perfect.


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## maglite mike (Apr 6, 2015)

I got the info from Brightguy.com. The specs could be off but the maglite is priced at $15.95 vs 19.95 for the Fenix, at least on bright guy.


Stream said:


> Not sure where you are getting that from, but they weigh exactly the same: 24 grams with one AAA alkaline battery. Not only that, but the E05 is 14.5 mm shorter, has multiple levels and much better runtime. It's hard to beat the 4 hours 15 min you get on the 25 lumen medium level of the E05. I hardly ever change the battery on that thing, despite using it quite a few times now and then. The price according to Maglite's website is $19.50, the E05 sells for $19.95 at fenix-store. I know the Solitaire can be found for less than $19.50, though. I have seen $13.58 on Amazon, if I can find a retailer that also has reasonable international shipping then I might consider getting one. What I like about the Solitaire is the throw, if only it had multiple levels and a more efficient emitter it would be perfect.


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## maglite mike (Apr 6, 2015)

The UI in the XL 200 is the best of any maglite I've used. It's my EDC. I wish they put the same UI in the 300 LX models. I have the ML 300LX in 2d and 3d and the run times seems to be more then adequate using D Alkalines. I also have 2 Ml 125s, it comes with a rechargeable battery but can also use C Alkaline. I have a ton more mags Inc the mag tac, mini pro plus, a few xl 50s and a ton of in cans sitting around. I should register then and will give some of my input. I like the nitize holster for thr mag tac and xl 200. It's a one size fits all from AAA to D sized lights. It needs a little tweaking with the smaller lights. I wrap some electric tape or rubber bands to keep it snug in the holster. 


GasganoFJ60 said:


> I suggest emailing Maglite with your input.
> Do you register your lights with Maglite?
> Every light Ive purchased in the last 6 months I have registered with Maglite and informed them of my input. I feel the more feedback they get, the better. I understand Maglite has fallen behind but Id like to see them come back with a vengeance.
> 
> ...


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## radiopej (Apr 6, 2015)

They're readily available on Australia, but they just cost so much - even for the incandescent ones. You could buy a brighter light for half the cost. I think their success is that most people imagine that shape when they think of a flashlight. I think they're a decent light, but priced too high here (I see in the US they sell bundled packs for ridiculously cheap). 

Yes, with that mass they should have better heatsinking and higher output, but nostalgia alone is enough to make me like them. I definitely think Maglica should be jumping on improvements rather than just tweaking it. The focus feature isn't very useful as it is. All these ugly rings. Just make a bright light that takes a beating and runs forever - essentially what they started in the beginning, but better.


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## Stream (Apr 6, 2015)

maglite mike said:


> I got the info from Brightguy.com. The specs could be off but the maglite is priced at $15.95 vs 19.95 for the Fenix, at least on bright guy.



I don't doubt the price; like I said, I even found one for $13.58 on Amazon. However, the manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP) for the Solitaire is $19.50, i.e. about the same as the E05 typically retails for. But even with the $4 price gap you mentioned, the E05 is still better value. As for the weight, maybe you're looking at the weight excluding battery. Sometimes they include the battery, and sometimes they don't. I got the specs from Maglite's homepage, and fenix-store.


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## Stream (Apr 6, 2015)

radiopej said:


> Yes, with that mass they should have better heatsinking and higher output, but nostalgia alone is enough to make me like them. I definitely think Maglica should be jumping on improvements rather than just tweaking it. The focus feature isn't very useful as it is. All these ugly rings. Just make a bright light that takes a beating and runs forever - essentially what they started in the beginning, but better.



I completely agree!


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## maglite mike (Apr 7, 2015)

The newest models really don't have the donut rings at all. I am including the XL 50, xl 200, ml 125, mag tac,mini pro and the new ml 300 series. The previous generation D model had the donut but those are the lower end model now. It seems like they are improving the heat sinking for sure. As far as brightness, these new mags are way more lumens then I need and the throw and long run time make up for a lesser lumens that I really don't need. I've read 1200 lumens with less throw is really not much different to the naked eye if you have a 600 plus lumen light with far superior throw. This is after a certain distance of course. Maglite still needs some catching up to do I guess but I like the simplicity and durability of the lights for several reasons.


radiopej said:


> They're readily available on Australia, but they just cost so much - even for the incandescent ones. You could buy a brighter light for half the cost. I think their success is that most people imagine that shape when they think of a flashlight. I think they're a decent light, but priced too high here (I see in the US they sell bundled packs for ridiculously cheap).
> 
> Yes, with that mass they should have better heatsinking and higher output, but nostalgia alone is enough to make me like them. I definitely think Maglica should be jumping on improvements rather than just tweaking it. The focus feature isn't very useful as it is. All these ugly rings. Just make a bright light that takes a beating and runs forever - essentially what they started in the beginning, but better.


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## Stream (Apr 7, 2015)

maglite mike said:


> I've read 1200 lumens with less throw is really not much different to the naked eye if you have a 600 plus lumen light with far superior throw.



Just wait until you see 1200, 2900, 4900 or even 10000 lumens with lots of throw!


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## Chicken Drumstick (Apr 7, 2015)

Stream said:


> The solitaire is the only maglite I would say was almost completely useless as an incan. I remember a friend had one on her key chain, it could barely light up your palm. Now as an LED light boasting 37 lumens it should indeed be


With people craving moonlight modes, I find such views almost comical.

BTW - the little Solitaire incan might be out matched today, but for it's INTENDED use it works perfectly fine. And when you consider what else was available at the time, it was more than bright enough. Anyone disagreeing with this is just deluding themself or wanting to use it for something it was never designed to do.



Stream said:


> more than enough for most daily tasks. Still, it doesn't beat the much smaller E05 with 85 lumens on max, and three levels to choose from. Both lights cost about the same.


I have both, the Solitaire LED is a much nicer light and more useful IMO.


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## Stream (Apr 7, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> BTW - the little Solitaire incan might be out matched today, but for it's INTENDED use it works perfectly fine. And when you consider what else was available at the time, it was more than bright enough. Anyone disagreeing with this is just deluding themself or wanting to use it for something it was never designed to do.



The irony of your statement is that even 10-15 years ago the incan Solitaire was outmatched by any half decent 5mm LED keychain light . I was big into Mags back then, but even I thought that the flat button cell light I got for free from Lighhound was way better! 



Chicken Drumstick said:


> I have both, the Solitaire LED is a much nicer light and more useful IMO.



I don't have both, so I can't comment. However, judging by the specs, it would be nice to see longer runtime from the Solitaire LED.


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## maglite mike (Apr 7, 2015)

Wait until the EPA starts regulating Our "Lumen Foot Print " ha ha


Stream said:


> Just wait until you see 1200, 2900, 4900 or even 10000 lumens with lots of throw!


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## Chicken Drumstick (Apr 8, 2015)

Stream said:


> The irony of your statement is that even 10-15 years ago the incan Solitaire was outmatched by any half decent 5mm LED keychain light . I was big into Mags back then, but even I thought that the flat button cell light I got for free from Lighhound was way better!


I think you are forgetting that the Solitaire was launched in 1988. I don't recall any LED keychain lights around at that time, or maybe even a decade later.

And the 5mm LED's might flood ok, but couldn't throw as well as the Solitaire and had much worse CRI & tint. And often non replaceable batteries and shorter runtimes. Not knocking them as I too have had a few of them over the years. Although none have survived, while the little Solitaires still keep on going.


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## Stream (Apr 8, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> I think you are forgetting that the Solitaire was launched in 1988. I don't recall any LED keychain lights around at that time, or maybe even a decade later.



And the LED version came out as late as 2013! This puts Mag at least a decade or two behind the competition. So it isn't just outmatched today, but it has BEEN outmatched for quite some time now.



Chicken Drumstick said:


> And the 5mm LED's might flood ok, but couldn't throw as well as the Solitaire and had much worse CRI & tint.



But for their INTENDED use they work perfectly fine . Maybe you want to use them for something they were never designed to do, but keychain lights are designed to keep you from fumbling in the dark. And in my opinion, the 5mm LEDs with their bright floody beams did that much better than the Solitaire. Who cares about throw when you are searching the floor one needle prick at a time! lol 



Chicken Drumstick said:


> And often non replaceable batteries and shorter runtimes. Not knocking them as I too have had a few of them over the years. Although none have survived, while the little Solitaires still keep on going.



My oldest Lighthound keychain lights have been around at least 5-8 years, and on the same batteries; a pair of flat lithium CR2016 batteries will last longer than you might think. Replacing the batteries is easy, but the lights themselves are so cheap that it was actually cheaper to just buy new ones. I have put them on the keychains of friends, family and relatives. And believe me, they have not always been treated well. Yet most of them survived many years, and came in handy quite a few times. The Solitaire is probably more sturdy, but the ones I have played around with were about as bright as moonlight reflected off a potato. Pretty useless, IMO.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Apr 8, 2015)

Tint plays a part for anything you do with a light. So intended use is to illuminate something.

I think you are also massively over estimating the lumen levels of these old 5mm LEDs.

Remember a reflector, bezel and lens will reduce out the front lumens. So the Solitaire might only make 2 ANSI FL1 lumens. But remove the head and it's probably a heck of a lot closer to the 5mm LED's in output.


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## Stream (Apr 8, 2015)

The tint is perfectly fine on the Lighthound 5mm keychain lights. I still have these lights, and I have previously compared them side by side with an incan Solitaire with a fresh battery. The 5mm is just much brighter, even if you removed the head of the Solitaire it wouldn't come close. And the even floody beam of the 5mm is just much more useful than the weak and ringy beam of the Solitaire.


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## WALLtech (Apr 9, 2015)

I'm leaning towards agreeing with this thread but the Maglite addicted youth and young adult I was wants too badly for it to be untrue.

To be fair to Maglite, their LED 2D torches are very decent for the money ($30-$40CAD). I received an XL50 as a gift and it hasn't been a bad light either. It hasn't seen much abuse yet but it has decent throw for 3XAAA. My issue is that I've been through four of their 2XAA Multi-Switch twist models. I think it's the switch that keeps failing, losing contact with the batteries or something...

I can always (literally) lean on my 6D and it's also kind of handy as a shovel in a bind too...

I think after the quick glance at their website I have to disagree though... Maglite has always offered a quality light at a decent price... They know their place in the market and they have earned that spot. I always check the shelf for a new Mag...

Thanks,

Wall


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## GasganoFJ60 (Apr 9, 2015)

I got my XL200 in the PO box today. 
Its quite the fancy gadget. 
Its a nice size and all its various modes, while Im still getting used to, are fun and can definitely come in useful in the right situations. 
I took it out to the pasture and it was lighting up trees in the distance that you could not see in the dark with the overcast we have tonight. 
I really like the LOW output setting. 
Just got gits and shiggles I compared it to an incan Solitaire and the output seems to be about the same. 
I decided to take the two into the barn. 
The barn is a steel building with no windows, lights, or even white walls. Once you close the door, its pitch black in there. 
The XL200s color seems to help it illuminate more but both are within the same league as far as not-so-bright-but-still-useful-lights go. 
But I like the LOW level on the XL because its just enough to see, not enough to draw attention or cause people in the room to wake up. 
I also like the memory function that saves the selected level of brightness for future uses and also is used on other modes. 

Another thing I just figured out; I have one of those old NiteIze Fiber Optic Adapters for the 2AA Mags and it fits on the XL. Bonus!

Im still learning/playing with it getting its functions second hand. I definitely like it a lot, I just wish I could find a clip for it. I know I can get a "tactical pack" but this one was such a good price I figured Ill cross that bridge later. Ill hopefully find a clip or just make a leather sheath for it like I have for others.


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## GasganoFJ60 (Apr 9, 2015)

WALLtech said:


> handy as a shovel in a bind too...
> 
> 
> Wall




Might be a dumb question, but do you have some sort of shovel attatchment for your 6D?
If so, where did you get it?
If not and it was just an expression, I think I may have a new shop project in mind for my 6D.


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## idleprocess (Apr 10, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> And the 5mm LED's might flood ok, but couldn't throw as well as the Solitaire and had much worse CRI & tint. And often non replaceable batteries and shorter runtimes. Not knocking them as I too have had a few of them over the years. Although none have survived, while the little Solitaires still keep on going.



Eh, tint on the solitaire wasn't anything to write home about. An alkaline AAA cell simply can't supply enough current at its ideal 1.5V to get that filament nice and hot - to say nothing about whatever voltage it sagged to. Throw was indeed better since it had some reflector to work with, but that didn't buy you much since the reflector was so tiny and the light so dim.


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## maglite mike (Apr 11, 2015)

Niteize has a one size fits all holster that works pretty well. Also did you know that you can actually adjust the strobe speed in addition to the brightness of every setting? There is also a lock out mode. Hold it in the on position aimed and the ceiling and quickly aim directly down. It will remain off until you repeat that procedure. This is useful if packing it away etc. It's the best UI of any light ive used. I wish Maglite offered models in the C and D line up with a similar UI as the XL 200.


GasganoFJ60 said:


> I got my XL200 in the PO box today.
> Its quite the fancy gadget.
> Its a nice size and all its various modes, while Im still getting used to, are fun and can definitely come in useful in the right situations.
> I took it out to the pasture and it was lighting up trees in the distance that you could not see in the dark with the overcast we have tonight.
> ...


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## GasganoFJ60 (Apr 13, 2015)

Yes Im aware of its various modes/levels/functions. 

Its become quite second-hand by now. 

Ive seen the NiteIze holsters but Id prefer to throw together a leather one. I prefer the feel. Plus, Ive managed to find the belt clip that comes with the "tactical pack" so Ill probably order on of those.


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