# Surefire Saint headlamp? (Part 2)



## Vermonter73 (Jun 6, 2008)

In the July 2008 issue of Outside magazine on page 112 they have a picture of a Surefire headlamp! It's supposedly called the Saint. They say 100 lumens in the blurb.

I can't find any info anywhere about this. Anybody know what's up?


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## Monocrom (Oct 1, 2009)

*Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?*

How bad is the lack of lube on the Minimus?

I once bought a Victorinox 2AA light that was bone dry. Head got hopelessly stuck when I tried to twist it in order to insert the batteries. Would rather not go through that same bull$#^% again.


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## bullfrog (Oct 1, 2009)

*Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?*

Mine came lubed up like all my other Surefires - the threads were definitely not dry - I did clean them and add nyogel, however. 

This seems to be a real workhorse of a light and I'm happy to add it to my line-up. Its getting a permanent place in my EDC bag along with my LX2 and Ra Clicky T-170. Between these three lights, I feel set for anything.

With that said, I'm a little frustrated with the beam quality and color... I usually dont give a crap but on high my minimus is very blue to me - the beam profile is also pretty gross - even outdoors I can still see a "cross-hair" looking square hotspot on most things that I point the beam at :green: Its distracting enough but I'm sure I'll get used to it.

My biggest qualm is that its very hard to dial into the lowest output setting - when it clicks on it is NOT at the lowest setting and I have to backwards dial very VERY carefully to get it to hit the lowest setting... its take some concentration to do this - too much and it clicks off - its frustrating... I wish there was a "divot" for the 1 lumen like there is for medium...

You guys notice this?


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## jch79 (Oct 1, 2009)

*Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?*

I question the 1 lumen rating of the lowest low - I was hoping it'd be close to a Titan low. 

The square artifact (square donut?) from the LED die is a bit distracting for reading, but outside, it's fine.

The "Breathe-O-Prene" pad seems a bit cheap and gimmicky. I'm not concerned about a few square inches on my forehead sweating, and after years of use, none of my headlamps are stinky or have slipping problems when I sweat. :shrug: YMMV. 

Like others, I wish it'd rotate a little smoother - going one way is fine, but when you twist downward, the battery tube likes to come unscrewed first.

Mine came half-ways lubed... I could care less either way, as I like my flashlights lubed the way I lube 'em! 

Overall, it's a great headlamp, and a nice first effort in the compact category from SureFire... but I think there are a few things they could improve upon on the Saint II. 

:thumbsup: john


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## kelmo (Oct 1, 2009)

Mine is waiting for me in my mailbox!


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## DimeRazorback (Oct 1, 2009)

Good to hear some criticism about the minimus!

From what I have read so far, the pros outway the cons... so it is still on my "To buy" list


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## bullfrog (Oct 1, 2009)

DimeRazorback said:


> Good to hear some criticism about the minimus!
> 
> From what I have read so far, the pros outway the cons... so it is still on my "To buy" list



Its definitely a great addition to any kit and I'm glad I purchased it.

Spoke w surefire earlier re the flickering on low levels - they said that turnaround might be a few weeks if I send it in (they are backordered) - they said to keep using it because some LEDs have a break-in period :shrug:


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## DimeRazorback (Oct 1, 2009)

:thinking:

Oh well... they told you to!

:laughing:


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## 276 (Oct 1, 2009)

Most of the recent issues i dont have at all. I will agree it's not that smooth to rotate all the way around but the battery cap on mine doesn't come off unless i hold it with two hands.


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## RobertM (Oct 1, 2009)

*Re: Surefire Saint headlamp?*



bullfrog said:


> Mine came lubed up like all my other Surefires - the threads were definitely not dry - I did clean them and add nyogel, however.
> 
> This seems to be a real workhorse of a light and I'm happy to add it to my line-up. Its getting a permanent place in my EDC bag along with my LX2 and Ra Clicky T-170. Between these three lights, I feel set for anything.
> 
> ...



Mine came bone-dry but it is nice now with Nyogel. I know what you mean about the lens--there are spots that look questionable on mine as well.

-Robert


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## kelmo (Oct 1, 2009)

I just got mine! It is an L4 for the forehead. Here's the nit picky stuff. The fit and finish is not quite up to par with there flashlights. At first glance it appears to be a SF knockoff. But it feels very solid and mechanically sound. Yes when white wall hunting you can see the image of the LED die. Mine rotates smoothly and is well lubed. The head band feels a little flimsy. But it puts out a ton of light. A little on the blue side but definitely not cat urine green like my KX2. I am overall very pleased with the light! Its big! 

kelmo


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## Daniel_sk (Oct 2, 2009)

If anyone wondered about a red filter, here is the reply from surefire : 
"_At this time, we do not offer a red filter for this unit. As for the future, there has not been any discussion in regards to a red filter_."


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## Daniel_sk (Oct 2, 2009)

That's what I am taking for today's night hiking trip :thumbsup:


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## manoloco (Oct 2, 2009)

Nice setup Daniel, perhaps a good opportunity for outdoor beamshots


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## Daniel_sk (Oct 2, 2009)

I would love to make some beamshots in the woods but my camera has only automatic exposure, so it's useless for beamshots :shakehead. My friends are taking a PT EOS and a Tikka XP (P4 mod), that would be great to see the difference... Maybe nextime I will borrow a better camera.


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## tnuckels (Oct 2, 2009)

Ok … so I already know this is going to go over like a led turd, but why be forced to carry two or more lights when there are headlamps that cover more of your lighting needs?

I’ve been following the Saint thread since its inception, though not overly closely. Since its release, I keep reading about folks that carry the Saint, and another SureFire light or two to meet their needs. I can certainly appreciate the quality aspects of the SureFire Saint/Minimus, and though there seem to be some execution flaws in this first attempt, there also seem to be shortcomings in terms of an all round headlamp solution.

Seems most of the reviews rank the Minimus as some sort of a Zebralight on steroids, though good for medium distance lighting as well, I don’t have a Zebra yet, as I am fond of more versatile solutions, and the Zebra seems like a one trick pony to me. So, why would so many seem anxious to jump on another more or less single task light?

I understand the build issues, interface issues, size issues, etc., but just understand the willingness to carry another light go compensate for the Saint/Minimus’ shortcomings, especially considering the steep asking price.

There are several lights that offer both spot and flood beams, that are quality built, equal or better runtime, equal or better output, and available for less money. So … why are so many willing to buy the Minumus, despite these contradictions?


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## bullfrog (Oct 2, 2009)

tnuckels said:


> Ok … so I already know this is going to go over like a lead turd, but why be forced to carry two or more lights when there are headlamps that cover more of your lighting needs?...



I have always carried a handheld light along with a headlamp when camping - a headlamp is excellent for handsfree night hiking and camp chores - but, I also like to carry a handheld light with a lot of throw to see FAR ahead or off in the distance that no headlamp can reach...

I think a lot of us also go with the adage "one is none." That is why I carry a backup and a backup for my backup (but I only carry one headlamp - my backups are handheld) 

Actually, I dont think I have ever met anyone who camps with JUST one light...

I chose to go w the minimus over other headlamps because I think surefire makes excellent, trustworthy lights that have always made me feel confident. I also didn't have any headlamps that used a CR123 and I think its a huge plus now that all my lights can share batteries.

Different strokes....


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## davidt1 (Oct 2, 2009)

tnuckels said:


> Ok …...
> Seems most of the reviews rank the Minimus as some sort of a Zebralight on steroids, I don’t have a Zebra yet, as I am fond of more versatile solutions, and the Zebra seems like a one trick pony to me. So, why would so many seem so anxious to jump on another more or less single task light?
> 
> .....



A Zebra light a one trick pony! Really? If what you really meant is it has less throw than the Minimus, then that is true. But I can assure you it's a very versatile light. I use can my H501 without a headband by clipping it to my shirt or belt. I can hide it my shirt pocket so it can be used anytime and anywhere. That, to me, is what versatility means.

I meant no disrespect to Minimus fans. Back to your regular programming please.


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## Daniel_sk (Oct 3, 2009)

I noticed a quite visible prismatic halo while wearing it in the woods, you can see a bright line in your peripheral vision - it's a bit distracting, especially in almost fully dark places (like in a forest), it makes you think that something is moving in your peripheral vision... It's not that bad but for a 139$ headlamp, I await a little more. The LED "image" in center of the beam is not visible.
The "breahe-o-pene" part on the forehead was somewhat uncomfortable, but maybe only because I wore it for the first time. 
The lowest setting is still enough to walk. 
I wouldn't describe the tint as warm, more like slightly cold white. Looks almost pure white in the woods, similar to my U2A tint.
The "click" at 50% isn't that noticeable, at least not on my minimus. Another thing is that you can't quickly shut off the light, it takes a while until you get to off especially from the highest level. I am missing a momentary "turbo" button, in case you just need to quickly check something and don't want to dial from off to high and then back again...
Sorry, no beamshots (old camera, but here is me with the saint minimus put down around my neck - there was enough light from the fire).


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## kelmo (Oct 3, 2009)

bullfrog said:


> I have always carried a handheld light along with a headlamp when camping...but I only carry one headlamp - my backups are handheld...headlamps that used a CR123 and I think its a huge plus now that all my lights can share batteries...



Excellent points bullfrog!


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## tnuckels (Oct 3, 2009)

For years we’ve been mucking about in the headlamp forum watching the slow and retarded progress of headlamp manufacturers, while handhelds have taken off. I recall several times someone new coming on board and asking, “Who makes the SureFire of headlamps?” So, when SF finally stepped up to the plate I was expecting a lot. This first go at making a headlamp hits a lot of points and seems very good … and yet somehow lacking.




bullfrog said:


> I have always carried a handheld light along with a headlamp when camping - a headlamp is excellent for hands free night hiking and camp chores - but, I also like to carry a handheld light with a lot of throw to see FAR ahead or off in the distance that no headlamp can reach...


Yes, I understand your point that a good handheld with a reflector will reach out and light where few headlamps can go. I suppose I am just disappointed that the Saint/Minimus beam lacks this ability. As *Daniel_sk* noted, there was some thought that it would have filters and perhaps a diffuser, somewhat like the UK Vizion, but maybe that was a CPF generated idea and never SF’s intention.




bullfrog said:


> I think a lot of us also go with the adage "one is none." That is why I carry a backup and a backup for my backup (but I only carry one headlamp - my backups are handheld) . Actually, I don’t think I have ever met anyone who camps with JUST one light...


I also carry multiple lights and pick the one according to task and capabilities, but my backups are just that, my last ditch effort so as not to be stranded or unduly exposed. The Minimus’ relative lack of distance lighting requires you to use your backups to fill-in for this shortcoming.




bullfrog said:


> I chose to go w the Minimus over other headlamps because I think surefire makes excellent, trustworthy lights that have always made me feel confident. I also didn't have any headlamps that used a CR123 and I think it’s a huge plus now that all my lights can share batteries.


While I am aware of a few other lamps that take CR123 batteries, I understand that warm and fuzzy feeling that you get from a trusted brand, and know the other offerings could not come close in those terms.




davidt1 said:


> A Zebra light a one trick pony! Really? If what you really meant is it has less throw than the Minimus, then that is true. But I can assure you it's a very versatile light. I use can my H501 without a headband by clipping it to my shirt or belt. I can hide it my shirt pocket so it can be used anytime and anywhere. That, to me, is what versatility means.


Zebra lights, for all their well known merits, are only useful for relatively short distance lighting. That’s not knocking the brand or its customers. In fact, I think that the Zebras are best at what they do and one of the most clever lights available. However, the fact that this pony can dance on your head, your belt, or from your shirt pocket doesn’t make the lighting it produces any more versatile or adaptable to other situations.


Back to the Minimus. I suppose I was waiting for SF to deliver the one headlamp to rule them all, and am just disappointed that I shall have to continue to wait.


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## Daniel_sk (Oct 3, 2009)

tnuckels, I agree with you on some points.
I would have preferred a some sort of double beam headlamp. Something like the Petzl Tikka XP with the sliding diffuser. Or maybe an LED for close-up work and some for the distance. The Saint (Minimus) is definitely not an universal headlamp, though it does light far enough for most of the tasks. 
With the Tikka XP I used the diffusing filter 95% of the time, but sometimes I just wanted to see what's in the distance - so I quickly slide the filter away from the optic and hit the "Boost" button. 
The lack of color filters is a bit disappointing - especially from Surefire, because they have color filters for every flashlight. SF replied to me that there aren't any plans for color filters yet. 

And why didn't they solve the prismatic halo? The developement took so long and the beam still has a distracting halo. The optic just needed to be about 2mm more recessed to catch the reflected line..

It's not a bad headlamp, but nothing groundbreaking. 
I'll continue to recommend PT EOS to my friends (which can be bought at 1/5th - 1/6th of the Minimus price) and performs quite similar in real use. I so wish there would be a 1x CR123A EOS version... 

I will test the headlamp more during next trips and report back.


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## crizyal (Oct 5, 2009)

Any body done any runtime tests yet? Maybe 50% brightness?


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## fleegs (Oct 5, 2009)

Interesting comments.

I like the Minimus. I bought it because of the user interface. I think the design it pretty neat. Only headlamp I have like it.

Zebralights are great. When comparing the Minimus to them I prefer Zebralights for closer use because of the smoother beam. I don't use the Zebralights for hiking. I am hoping the Minimus can handle that better. I currently use the Apex Pro for hiking. 

I am glad the Zebralights now come in neutral tint. Would love the minimus to have a nuetral tint model.

Next wait is for the Ra headlamp (been on the list for many years now, lol). New people will be asking, "What list"? There was a list when they were HDS before Novatacs. This was a joke I am sure Henry does not have a list still.


Rob


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## JNewell (Oct 5, 2009)

Daniel_sk said:


> I'll continue to recommend PT EOS to my friends (which can be bought at 1/5th - 1/6th of the Minimus price) and performs quite similar in real use. I so wish there would be a 1x CR123A EOS version...
> 
> I will test the headlamp more during next trips and report back.


 
Which one of the various models do you think competes best against the Minimus?


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## kwkarth (Oct 5, 2009)

JNewell said:


> Which one of the various models do you think competes best against the Minimus?



The Fenix HP-10 should ship today or tomorrow!!! I can hardly wait! Other than compactness, it should blow the doors off the Minimus.


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## Kiessling (Oct 6, 2009)

I don't think the intention of the Minimus is to blow something away or off. It provides a very good field of vision up to medium distances, it is a no-brainer to use and it is small and light weight.

I don't think more oomph would make it better, and I would not want a more focussed or throwy beam. 

I am curious how the non user serviceable switch will hold up under adverse conditions like dirt and mud in caves ...

bernie


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## prime77 (Oct 6, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> I don't think the intention of the Minimus is to blow something away or off. It provides a very good field of vision up to medium distances, it is a no-brainer to use and it is small and light weight.
> 
> I don't think more oomph would make it better, and I would not want a more focussed or throwy beam.
> 
> ...


I agree. I absolutely love my Minimus. You couldn't ask for a better light weight headlamp. I wouldn't want a throwy beam on one anyway. And you can't ask for a better UI. My only small complaint that I have found after using it allot is that I wish the low was a little lower.


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## Kiessling (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes, it is too bright for close-up tasks in total darkness. And the stiff tilting mechanism is a littel annoying, but that is a minor detail. 

In the end, I haven't seen anything like the Minimus and I have waited a long time for such a headlamp.

bernie


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## dcycleman (Oct 6, 2009)

I cant wait to buy one of these


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## DaFABRICATA (Oct 6, 2009)

As others have stated, I wish the low was lower.
As for the tilting being to hard....I lubed mine and it moves a bit easier but sometimes moves when I dont want it to when twisting the knob. I now wish I didnt lube it. I'd rather it be a little more difficult to mave than move when I dont want it to.


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## tnuckels (Oct 7, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> I don't think more oomph would make it better, and I would not want a more focused or throwy beam.





prime77 said:


> I wouldn't want a throwy beam on one anyway.


Err, umm, why?

Assuming you were stuck with ONLY a long distance spot beam, then yes, I can understand your feelings. However, with filters and diffusers you are not locked into a single mode beam. Heck, I can even partially deploy a diffuser to get a sort of mix of spot and flood that I want, not committing entirely to either.

You simply can not tell me that the option of more versatile lighting would not add to a headlamp’s desirability or preclude your purchasing it.

I want to be clear, that I think this is a nice headlamp. Though as long as it took, with SureFire’s resources and brain-power, and with a few seemingly simple tweaks, I just feel it could have been that much better … especially considering the premium pricing, though I suppose you could chalk much of that up to presumed quality.


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## kwkarth (Oct 7, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> I don't think the intention of the Minimus is to blow something away or off. It provides a very good field of vision up to medium distances, it is a no-brainer to use and it is small and light weight.
> 
> I don't think more oomph would make it better, and I would not want a more focussed or throwy beam.
> 
> ...


Frankly, the minimus seems incapable of much performance, so it is a good thing that that is what some people desire. It cannot be used as even a close range spot and it cannot go low enough to be used at close range in total darkness. It seemingly can not accept any filters or beam shapers.

If a $140 headlamp with a 1 hour battery supply that cannot be used for close work nor medium nor bright work is what you desire, then this is a great light!. For my $140, I desire much more versatility and adaptability from a premium headlamp. 

FWIW, I have found the pure flood beam shape from the SF T1A is so floody, that for most uses, I have to run the light at much higher brightness level than I would have to if it had any throw at all. This makes my battery use much higher than it should have to be, virtually all of the time.

Compared to any other EDC light I own, the T1A's battery life is the shortest because of the beam profile. Even my single AAA lights last longer per battery change because they have a more useful beam profile, which allows me to run them at a lower overall brightness and get the same work done. The T1A and the Minimus have many similar characteristics. The UI is very similar, but the adjustable brightness range for the T1A is much more versatile than it is for the Minimus. I wish I could understand what SF was thinking to intentionally design a beam profile like that. If that profile works for you, great. I'm not trying to trash the Minimus, neither am I blindly extolling it. I am trying to understand the value proposition that it brings to market.

It seems as though the useful working range for the Minimus is from 5 feet to 10 feet, and that's about it, no closer and no farther.


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## Kiessling (Oct 7, 2009)

Too many options make a complicated product. I like it really simple.

For me, a headlamp is there for close to medium range tasks, to allow doing work where I can use the field of vision my eyes can offer. The Minimus does that ... a very even illumination with great fiedl of vision and virtually no dynamic range in the beam ... no adjustment of the eyes and brain necessary. I can just pretend it was daylight and not concentrate on any hotspot. I don't even have to move my head, I can just move my eyes around in the fied of vision the lamp offers as it is so even.

Of course, depending on light pollution, this might cost some battery power to bring the needed lux onto the target. As the target is all the beam and not just a spot.

For indoor work the 10lm setting is just perfect, so battery life should be quite good. 

For spotting things I want real power. And I want that power in my hand and not on my head for safety reasons and for practicality ... being able to move my head while still illuminating at the distance with the light in hand. 

I guess this is why the Zebralilghts are such a success ... similar concept of beam distribution and a very small and light weith package on the head. Anything more and more powerful would make it heavier. 

The concept of such a beam has merit. McGizmo offers such lights, too, and very succesfully so. Such beams are not awe-inspiring, but they are really useful.

For me, that is 

bernie


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## kwkarth (Oct 7, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> Too many options make a complicated product. I like it really simple.
> 
> For me, a headlamp is there for close to medium range tasks, to allow doing work where I can use the field of vision my eyes can offer. The Minimus does that ... a very even illumination with great fiedl of vision and virtually no dynamic range in the beam ... no adjustment of the eyes and brain necessary. I can just pretend it was daylight and not concentrate on any hotspot. I don't even have to move my head, I can just move my eyes around in the fied of vision the lamp offers as it is so even.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that Bernie, it helps me understand the use profile and value proposition.
Cheers!
Kevin


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## Kiessling (Oct 7, 2009)

To each his own I guess  

I can understand that the Minimus is not everyones horse. For me though, it is what I wanted for ages.

Apart from the beam and UI, there's also the fact that it has no third head strap (which might be mandatory for others), that it uses CR123 and that it has no external battery pack and that it is easy to store and quick to deploy.

For all that, I like it. 

It does "feel" less "sophisticated" or "refined" for lack of better words, than other SF lights, e. g. the T1A, the closest relative. 

bernie


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## tnuckels (Oct 7, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> Too many options make a complicated product. I like it really simple.


A ¾ O, C shaped piece of tough plastic that snaps over the body of the light and rotates in a grooved track. The open portion of the C gives you an unaltered beam, rotating it gives you other options, the number of which is determined by how many can be fit in the space available, but I’m guessing at least 3. An aspheric, a diffuser, a red filter … maybe make them inserts so the owner can choose between an array of options. Damn, I need to patent this …




Kiessling said:


> The concept of such a beam has merit. McGizmo offers such lights, too, and very successfully so. Such beams are not awe-inspiring, but they are really useful.


To which the follow-up light added both a more traditional beam, as well as the ring of lights that produce an ambient wall of illumination, making it all the more versatile. The LunaSol, is it?

Honestly, the dual fuel battery pack of the Saint shows more time, effort, and creativity than some of the business-end details.:sigh:


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## Lightcrazycanuck (Oct 7, 2009)




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## Kiessling (Oct 7, 2009)

tnuckels said:


> A ¾ O, C shaped piece of tough plastic that snaps over the body of the light and rotates in a grooved track. The open portion of the C gives you an unaltered beam, rotating it gives you other options, the number of which is determined by how many can be fit in the space available, but I’m guessing at least 3. An aspheric, a diffuser, a red filter … maybe make them inserts so the owner can choose between an array of options. Damn, I need to patent this …


 
Very cool idea. Not for me though, don't need it and it would be another thing to break, scratch, collect dirt and add bulk. The idea *is* neat though. :thumbsup:
You'd need to add "tactical" somewhere. It won't sell otherwise.






> To which the follow-up light added both a more traditional beam, as well as the ring of lights that produce an ambient wall of illumination, making it all the more versatile. The LunaSol, is it?


No, the current offerings are the SunDrop (beam profile remotely like the Minimus) and the Haiku, a 3-level with one beam. Of course the LunaSol is more versatile, you are right. But it is a handheld, and for my uses (personally), that makes a difference. 

A headlamp illuminates where I look, and I need that in the near field. Also, I don't wanna fumble a lot on my head blindly. So it needs to be ultra simple.
A handheld however can point wherever my hand points it and this hand can quickly access its features, so a quick momentarya high makes a lot more sense (to me) than with a headlamp. Same goes for a throw beam, as I already pointed out in my post above.

But that might just be me and my needs. 






> Honestly, the dual fuel battery pack of the Saint shows more time, effort, and creativity than some of the business-end details.:sigh:


You have a point. The battery pack is really great. I just don't need or want it. I want it like the Minimus is. 

In the end, if you make an educated choice, you can't go wrong. Good times for flashaholics 

bernie


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## RobertM (Oct 7, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> Very cool idea. Not for me though, don't need it and it would be another thing to break, scratch, collect dirt and add bulk. The idea *is* neat though. :thumbsup:
> You'd need to add "tactical" somewhere. It won't sell otherwise.
> 
> 
> ...



It's not just you, Bernie. I agree with you that something attached to your head needs to extremely simple to operate and have a nice flood beam. In you hand is where your thrower should be, not on your head! 

-Robert


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## bullfrog (Oct 7, 2009)

RobertM said:


> In you hand is where your thrower should be, not on your head!



Definitely!

Though I wish Minimus had a lower low, it is near perfect for what I need a headlamp to do: camp chores and path illumination.

As I've been using it, its growing on me and I think the next generation will be perfection.


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## Kiessling (Oct 7, 2009)

Another thing is physiology. When working, or just when doing *something*, usually our eyes move and not our head. Our eyes do have 6 tiny muscles that are very very precise and quick, and they move the eyes around far quicker than the clumsy head could. Observe yourself, and you will see. Do you read by moving your head right and left or your eyes?
With this, we can quickly gather information in a far greater area than just the direction where our head points, we are faster, more effective and deadlier. We survive, the dinosaur dies. 

This means that I need a light source on my head that allow just that, not moving the clumsy head but letting the eyes move instead, which implies a broad beam profile, ideally without a badass hotspot that distracts and imposes a high dynamic range on our poor brain resulting in obfuscate instead of illuminate. 

If I must point a hotspot with my head in order to see a target I am giving up physiological movement and perception and I am at a disadvantage, meaning slower and less precise. 

Flood on the head is physiological for all work in close and medium areas. And a super simple interface is needed, too, as one must be able to use it blindly and in a awkward position. 

Minimus. Move your eyes, and not your head Be quick, be physiological 

I'll stop now ... good night, guys! 

bernie


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## tnuckels (Oct 7, 2009)

OKAY Bernard, vermache ich Ihnen das letzte Wort.


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## csshih (Oct 9, 2009)

Here are a bunch of images for you to judge with.
I was going to try to write a review but haven't had the time


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## vtunderground (Oct 9, 2009)

I have a BIG favor to ask...

Would a Minimus owner mind measuring the width & height of the beam at a set distance from the wall? (Doesn't matter what the distance is, as long as I know exactly how far away from the wall the Minimus was.) For caving, all I really care about it having a very wide beam, and I'd like to know in advance how the Saint compares to my current caving headlamps.

THANKS IN ADVANCE!!!


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## ElectronGuru (Oct 9, 2009)

Daniel_sk said:


> If anyone wondered about a red filter, here is the reply from surefire :
> "_At this time, we do not offer a red filter for this unit. As for the future, there has not been any discussion in regards to a red filter_."



It might help to know an inportant limitation. Filters don't create color, they remove it. Incans already produce a bunch of red, where a red filter takes out all that isn't red. LEDs have little natural red, so very little light would end up getting through. In this case, a red LED is the way to go.


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## Daniel_sk (Oct 9, 2009)

DaFABRICATA said:


> As others have stated, I wish the low was lower.
> As for the tilting being to hard....I lubed mine and it moves a bit easier but sometimes moves when I dont want it to when twisting the knob. I now wish I didnt lube it. I'd rather it be a little more difficult to mave than move when I dont want it to.


 
Now I wish I didn't lube it too . I sprayed some silicone oil on it, I hope it will dry out over time... It's not such a good design because it relies on fricton...



ElectronGuru said:


> It might help to know an inportant limitation. Filters don't create color, they remove it. Incans already produce a bunch of red, where a red filter takes out all that isn't red. LEDs have little natural red, so very little light would end up getting through. In this case, a red LED is the way to go.


 
Yes I know, but in my experience - there is still enough red coming through (on my Tikka XP). And I don't mind the lost power, it would at least provide a way to get a lower low (even though that's not an efficent way). A red led would be much better of course.


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## tpchan (Oct 9, 2009)

Received my Saint Minimus today, and I'm happy with it. In case it hasn't yet been answered in this thread, the Minimus seems to work just fine with a rechargeable 16340 as long as you have a small magnet to put on the positive end to make a firm contact with the light. I used an AW IMR 16340 and the Minimus is working fine with it. Same as the SureFire T1A for working with 16340 cells.


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## RobertM (Oct 9, 2009)

vtunderground said:


> I have a BIG favor to ask...
> 
> Would a Minimus owner mind measuring the width & height of the beam at a set distance from the wall? (Doesn't matter what the distance is, as long as I know exactly how far away from the wall the Minimus was.) For caving, all I really care about it having a very wide beam, and I'd like to know in advance how the Saint compares to my current caving headlamps.
> 
> THANKS IN ADVANCE!!!



I just did a quick measurement for you:

~1 meter wide beam = ~0.9 meters from wall
~2 meter wide beam = ~1.9 meters from wall

Hopefully this helps.

-Robert


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## crizyal (Oct 9, 2009)

tpchan said:


> Received my Saint Minimus today, and I'm happy with it. In case it hasn't yet been answered in this thread, the Minimus seems to work just fine with a rechargeable 16340 as long as you have a small magnet to put on the positive end to make a firm contact with the light. I used an AW IMR 16340 and the Minimus is working fine with it. Same as the SureFire T1A for working with 16340 cells.



I just read this in another thread


blidasabat said:


> It's not confirmed due to an RCR, but I've killed one. I have a dead Cree head that just went out after several hours running on RCR123. I measured it at 1.05 Amps, which seemed OK, but after a few weeks of ocassional use, it just blinked off once when I turned it on.
> 
> To be fair, I've been running several L1 heads on RCR123's, 14500's, and 17500's for a long time. Newer LEDs are coming out with lower Vf's, so the risk is going up for everything except K2's - they are tough and can take over 2 Amps.



Not sure that I want to risk it, though Surefires warranty would probably cover it.


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## Afraid-of-the-dark (Oct 11, 2009)

Daniel_sk said:


> If anyone wondered about a red filter, here is the reply from surefire :
> "_At this time, we do not offer a red filter for this unit. As for the future, there has not been any discussion in regards to a red filter_."


 
Thanks for the answering that question. That really bums me out. :mecry:

I guess I'll have to decide if the lowest setting will upset my night vision too much.


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## vtunderground (Oct 11, 2009)

RobertM said:


> I just did a quick measurement for you:
> 
> ~1 meter wide beam = ~0.9 meters from wall
> ~2 meter wide beam = ~1.9 meters from wall
> ...



Thank you very much!!!

This is a bit tighter than the spill beam from the Khatod 17mm reflector in my current caving headlamp... I was really hoping that the Surefire would have a wider beam. You just saved me a lot of money!


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## RobertM (Oct 12, 2009)

vtunderground said:


> Thank you very much!!!
> 
> This is a bit tighter than the spill beam from the Khatod 17mm reflector in my current caving headlamp... I was really hoping that the Surefire would have a wider beam. You just saved me a lot of money!



No problem at all. One thing to mention...there was still _some_ light outside of the beam I measured, but my measurements are where the beam _significantly_ drops off. I don't know if that makes a difference to you or not.

-Robert


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## mx125 (Oct 12, 2009)

Apologies if this specifically has been addressed . . but a question about READING with the minumus . . should I assume the beam is too focussed and a bit bright? 

I've seen comments that the minimus does not have enough throw for walking . . . while still having too much light on low for up close work in a tent without upsetting others/night vision . . but not sure how it fares as a reading tool. I love my Zebralight on low for that purpose and wonder how the minimus compares in specifically that use? I'd like an excuse to get one, but as 80% of my headlamp use is reading, I don't want to be completely frustrated. 

Thanks.


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## crizyal (Oct 12, 2009)

There is plenty of throw for walking, I use it for that purpose all the time. The low level is definitely brighter than the Zebralight's low and it has the die shaped artifact that might disturb your reading. It works for me though. I love this thing!


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## Jethro (Oct 12, 2009)

This light looks awesome. I want one. I have camped for the past two or three years with a Petzel e+lite rated for something like 14 lm. I like the adjust ability of the light and imagine it will be more than bright enough for me. Cool headlight!


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## DaFABRICATA (Oct 12, 2009)

I was able to use the Minimus while out in Colorado last week.
I climbed a small mountain in the dark and it worked great!
Overall, I'm glad I bought it.

I'm, also happy with how comfortable it is to wear for extended amounts of time.


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## kaptein america (Oct 16, 2009)

Would love to here some further impressions. 
I would love to have this light, but have concerns that the low is not low enough or not floody enough. Anyone diffusing the beam with a mod?


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## Kiessling (Oct 18, 2009)

tnuckels said:


> OKAY Bernard, vermache ich Ihnen das letzte Wort.



:nana:


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## zemmo (Oct 21, 2009)

tpchan said:


> Received my Saint Minimus today, and I'm happy with it. In case it hasn't yet been answered in this thread, the Minimus seems to work just fine with a rechargeable 16340 as long as you have a small magnet to put on the positive end to make a firm contact with the light. I used an AW IMR 16340 and the Minimus is working fine with it. Same as the SureFire T1A for working with 16340 cells.



Anyone else using RCRs? I just got my minimus last night, and it makes a great light for just walking around. Waiting to use it more to come to any overall conclusions. Would like to use rechargables if there's no reason not to. BTW, anyone have an online source (I'm in a real rural area) for a small magnet that would go on the (flat top?) 16340? TIA


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## grnamin (Oct 21, 2009)

I just got off the phone with Surefire and I was told that the Saint was supposed to be available to dealers today.


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## DaFABRICATA (Oct 21, 2009)

grnamin said:


> I just got off the phone with Surefire and I was told that the Saint was supposed to be available to dealers today.


 



Thanks for checking!!!

I guess we will all wait and see.
SF has been better with releases as of late hopefully they were listening to the complaints about putting products in their catalogs that are still WAAAY out in terms of actually being available.




On a side note, I pulled a dumb-*** move the other night...
I went to the garage to make a heatsink and was going to use the minimus to help with lighting...I turned it on and it would get bright then ramp down to very low and kept doing it.:thinking:
I figured it was a low battery as it has been used a lot with the same cell.
I opened my toolbox where I keep a spares carrier and put a fresh cell in it...Same thing...Bright then dim and up and down..:shrug:
At this point I thought I was going to have to send it in.
I checked the cell on my ZTS tester and it had 20% left
Found an _ACTUAL_ fresh cell and it worked as it should...I felt like a jack-***.

Moral of the story: If you're gonna put dead cells back in a spares carrier, flip them upside down so you know they are crap.:duh2::tinfoil:

*Has anyone else noticed this behavior when the batteries get low?*


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## SunDog (Oct 21, 2009)

mx125 said:


> Apologies if this specifically has been addressed . . but a question about READING with the minumus . . should I assume the beam is too focussed and a bit bright?
> 
> I've seen comments that the minimus does not have enough throw for walking . . . while still having too much light on low for up close work in a tent without upsetting others/night vision . . but not sure how it fares as a reading tool. I love my Zebralight on low for that purpose and wonder how the minimus compares in specifically that use? I'd like an excuse to get one, but as 80% of my headlamp use is reading, I don't want to be completely frustrated.
> 
> Thanks.



We just got back from a week of backpacking and camping in southern Utah and we both took our new Minumus headlamps. We loved them for reading on the very lowest setting and did so for up to a couple of hours every night.

The low is great for around camp in many situations or a bit more light for some. In the dark going cross country, the medium worked well but at times we dialed them up higher. On high they were plenty bright to see how to move through rugged terrain and we only needed that much light momentarily at times. We liked the simple design very much and the relatively light weight. They were very comfortable on the head for hours every night.

As much as we used them we never did have to put the spare batteries in. They ran all week long on one battery each. Low can preserve or blow your night vision depending on what you are doing. Around camp it was preserved fairly well but when reading, it would blow it at least to a degree.

We have used the Princeton Tec Apex Pro for the last couple of years and the Minimus comes in at 70 grams lighter and a whole lot more comfortable with a much better tint and no rings. It was easy to get used to rotating the beam after some use. It is good to have it hold tight and not move when you don't want it to move. The Apex Pro would move at times when not wanted. Operation of the light levels is very intuitive. They have a nice rugged build.

This is the kind of terrain we were camped in and traveled in for a week. We never needed or wanted another light in that time. It is very versatile for what it is.


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## DaFABRICATA (Oct 21, 2009)

SunDog,

AWESOME PICTURE!!!oo::huh:

I would LOVE to be able to do that in my lifetime!!

Thanks for the reveiw of how it did for you!

WOW!!, you've been a member for a Loooooong time and only 4 posts!:nana:

Good to hear from ya!:thumbsup:


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## RGB_LED (Oct 21, 2009)

tpchan said:


> Received my Saint Minimus today, and I'm happy with it. In case it hasn't yet been answered in this thread, the Minimus seems to work just fine with a rechargeable 16340 as long as you have a small magnet to put on the positive end to make a firm contact with the light. I used an AW IMR 16340 and the Minimus is working fine with it. Same as the SureFire T1A for working with 16340 cells.


Thanks tpchan, that's the info that I was looking for. 

Still, I'm on the fence about this light... I initially thought that, with the dual fuel option and peripheral vision / diffused beam profile (a la Zebralight), this would make an ideal headlamp. But, the things I'm reading now re: edge artifacts that appear distracting at night, no low-low, stiff switch mechanism now makes me pause. I'd like to hear more feedback from those who have gone camping / caving with this light as that would be my primary use...


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## carrot (Oct 21, 2009)

grnamin said:


> I just got off the phone with Surefire and I was told that the Saint was supposed to be available to dealers today.


That's EXCELLENT news. I look forward to seeing these.


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## Andrey (Oct 22, 2009)

I lent my new Minimus to non-flashaholic friend we frequently hike and camp with.
He was quite happy with the headlamp mostly due to simple intuitive interface. Not really low minimal level was not bothering him as much as myself. Neither he noticed beam artifacts until I specifically pointed him at them.

At the same time I find Zebralight H501W more comfortable than Minimus for following reasons:
- Warm tint.
- Lower low.
- More compact. You will not notice H501 in your pocket.
- Weigh less.
The above factors outweigh for me a really nice interface of Minimus.

Conclusion: I will wait for smaller headlamp with warm tint or replaceable LED and lower low.

Andrey


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## zemmo (Oct 22, 2009)

SunDog said:


> We just got back from a week of backpacking and camping in southern Utah and we both took our new Minumus headlamps. We loved them for reading on the very lowest setting and did so for up to a couple of hours every night.
> 
> The low is great for around camp in many situations or a bit more light for some. In the dark going cross country, the medium worked well but at times we dialed them up higher. On high they were plenty bright to see how to move through rugged terrain and we only needed that much light momentarily at times. We liked the simple design very much and the relatively light weight. They were very comfortable on the head for hours every night.
> 
> ...



That slickrock is big fun! Always enjoyed it myself. 

I have been using my minimus the last few days and do find it very comfortable. Personally, I would like a little more throw, but I supplement it with a flashlight when walking around at night. Good to be able to tell what those eyes belong to, be it cougar, coyote, javelina, fox, bear, or? All in all I am pretty pleased with the light, and I use a headlamp of some sort a lot.


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## Size15's (Oct 22, 2009)

RGB_LED said:


> But, the things I'm reading now re: edge artifacts that appear distracting at night, no low-low, stiff switch mechanism now makes me pause. I'd like to hear more feedback from those who have gone camping / caving with this light as that would be my primary use...


I used a Minimus on a weekend trip to hike up Snowdon.
I suggest that the 'edge artifacts' are not normal, and if the one I had had them I'd arrange to have it replaced.
The 'stiff switch mechanism' is also not normal.
I suspect isolated instances of this nature were the result of SureFire being a bit hasty when putting together the first batches - I am confident that lessons learned and assembly details have been worked.

The 'low-low' was something I was a little concerned about myself but the reality is that in use it was low enough.

I don't have time to go through all my feedback but the Minimus has retired my Princeton Tec EOS headlamps as my active use headlamp for camping, hiking and general use.


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## Woods Walker (Oct 22, 2009)

Size15's said:


> I don't have time to go through all my feedback but the Minimus has retired my Princeton Tec EOS headlamps as my active use headlamp for camping, hiking and general use.


 
That alone is high praise. Look forward to more reviews and feed back on this headlamp. I am thinking about the Saint.


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## kelmo (Oct 22, 2009)

I used mine at work quite extensively yesterday. I was chasing down a construction defect in a ceiling cavity for a couple of hours. It was quite literally urban caving. I had to crawl around pipes, ductwork, wiring, excetera all in a 2-3 foot tall space. I did not need the hand held I had with me. The nice smooth flood and 100 lumen high were perfect. The breathoprene piece acually worked pretty well. It was soaked when I took off the headlamp but it dried very fast.


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## grnamin (Oct 23, 2009)

My apologies to everyone. I called Surefire again just to see if their answer would change because I hadn't found any dealers that had the Saint in stock. The person I talked to said that the full version Saint won't be out until November 23rd and that dealers will get them two weeks prior. At this point, it's really anyone's guess when it will come out.


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## DaFABRICATA (Oct 23, 2009)

grnamin said:


> My apologies to everyone. I called Surefire again just to see if their answer would change because I hadn't found any dealers that had the Saint in stock. The person I talked to said that the full version Saint won't be out until November 23rd and that dealers will get them two weeks prior. At this point, it's really anyone's guess when it will come out.


 




Why doesn't that suprise me_ at all!!!_


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## hurricane (Oct 24, 2009)

DaFABRICATA said:


> Why doesn't that suprise me_ at all!!!_



Exactly! Brutal.

In a few days we'll hear "February 17th - 2010" ...


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## dcycleman (Oct 24, 2009)

I dont take anything seriose from surefire untill someone else on here actually has one.


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## dcycleman (Oct 24, 2009)

Well, I just pulled the trigger on the minimus, should be here by tuesday, kinda sucks, I'm going hiking tomorro, Mt Washington. Probly coming out in the dark. I'll have to make due with my old headlamp.


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## hurricane (Oct 25, 2009)

dcycleman said:


> Well, I just pulled the trigger on the minimus, should be here by tuesday, kinda sucks, I'm going hiking tomorro, Mt Washington. Probly coming out in the dark. I'll have to make due with my old headlamp.



Mt. Washington, NH? Awesome place. I've climbed it three times in winter ... one cold February night in 1997, I hit 150 mph gusts while hunkered down in a full-on mountaineering tent - just north of the summit and about 750' below the summit [enroute to climb the n. presidentials]. Survived, though the tent was fk'up [three broken poles and a ripped fly]. I remember I was using an old Petzl headlamp with alkaline batteries ... it was so cold, I'd get about 15 minutes out of the thing before the lamp would turn yellow and glow like a candle. I love that place, with it's crazy horizontal ice - totally extreme.

I'm sure you'll love the minimus and you can probably pick-up the "upgrade to a Saint kit" later ... have fun hiking in the White Mtns!


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## dcycleman (Oct 25, 2009)

thanks man, we had an awesomw hike, it was below freezing with 75 MPH gusts when we got above treeline. I had to keep rubbing the ice off my glasses. we got out before dark so no lights were needed.


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## dcycleman (Oct 27, 2009)

got the minimus in the mail today!!!!!


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## grnamin (Nov 2, 2009)

Alert! Tadgear has some Saints in stock. If it's not yet listed on their website, you'll need to call to order. Got one arriving tomorrow.


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## grnamin (Nov 3, 2009)

It's finally here!


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## DaFABRICATA (Nov 3, 2009)

grnamin said:


> It's finally here!


 




Ummm.. you can't just leave us with that!

Take that thing outta the box and lets see some pictures!!

I'd like a close up of the part that replaces the battery on the Minimus...please!

Also, Does it come with the battery cap that allows it to be converted to a Minimus?


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## grnamin (Nov 3, 2009)

Not to worry.  I only have my iPhone at work to take the first pic. I'll take more unboxing pictures when I get home (with a more decent camera). The red plastic thing in the box (in picture) is a cap that contains the small battery tube with a spring to convert to a Minimus. Hmmmm... Maybe an unboxing video instead.


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## DimeRazorback (Nov 3, 2009)

OMG OMG OMG!!



Oh man...

Not good for the paypal finger.

:shakehead


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## grnamin (Nov 3, 2009)

Unboxing a Surefire Saint and assembling it without reading the instructions 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SrKYuyef2s

Battery compartment details:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JORBRZTCg8s


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## PoliceScannerMan (Nov 3, 2009)

Sweet video Greg, thanks for sharing. My minumus should be here tomorrow. Like I needed it, I just couldnt help myself. 

I really dont have a use for a headlamp, but I am sure it will some in handy unloading the wifes 100's and 100's of pounds of Christmas decorations out of the attic. :sick2:


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## FrogmanM (Nov 3, 2009)

Thanks for the video Greg 

-Mayo


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## grnamin (Nov 4, 2009)

You're welcome.


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## grnamin (Nov 4, 2009)

Note to self: Disconnect battery pack from the headband first before installing the Minimus conversion cap. Otherwise, you'll end up with a battery pack wire looking like a phone cord.


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## RobertM (Nov 4, 2009)

grnamin said:


> Unboxing a Surefire Saint and assembling it without reading the instructions
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SrKYuyef2s
> 
> Battery compartment details:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JORBRZTCg8s



Whoa! The Saint not only comes with the means of using 3 batteries instead of one, but it comes with a SureFire sticker!!!  Man, I should have held out for the Saint instead of quickly getting the Minimus. :laughing:

-Robert


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## jimbosan72 (Nov 4, 2009)

Did anyone else receive their Saint yet. I preordered one from BatteryJunction.com and was curious to know. I think I have Saint fever and not swine flu.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Nov 5, 2009)

GOt my Minimus yesterday, I really like it! Tint is white, not cool at all, that was a suprise after what I read here. Also, no bright ring around the spill. This is a keeper! :twothumbs


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## Owen (Nov 5, 2009)

Greg, thanks for the video:thumbsup:
So, uh, why are you hiding in a closet and whispering, and what light were you using?


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## grnamin (Nov 5, 2009)

Thank you, Owen.  I was in my garage. Sounds like my digital camera didn't pick up what I was saying well enough. I wasn't whispering.  ...Or maybe I was trying to hide the fact that I got another flashlight from my wife. :naughty:


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## Peter Atwood (Nov 6, 2009)

I've been using mine in my shop for those times when I need extra light for closeup work. I'm very happy with it for the most part and the infinite output switch is just awesome.


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## carrot (Nov 10, 2009)

Heads up, the full size Saint has shipped to dealers. Knifecenter is now offering it, with availability listed as being "in stock"

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=SFHS1ABK


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## nzgunnie (Nov 10, 2009)

Mine is on it's way from OpticsHQ, 


I strongly recommend this dealer...


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## carrot (Nov 11, 2009)

nzgunnie said:


> Mine is on it's way from OpticsHQ,
> 
> 
> I strongly recommend this dealer...


+1
I'll be placing my order with OpticsHQ soon. I'm in no rush though.


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## Woods Walker (Nov 11, 2009)

Output: 

High: 100 lumens
Low: 1 lumen
Runtime: 

High Setting: 6 hours
Low Setting: 144 hours
Weight: 9.4 ounces with batt. Batteries:
Three 123A lithiums (included) or two AA Alkalines (not included)
Made in USA


I wonder if the low is 1 lumens as people have said it seemed brighter. I would also like to see runtimes from CPF users with 2XAA. Also looks like it can be used without a battery pack just like the Minimus so it seems like a better deal. I wonder what LED is used for both? Anyways after it is out for a bit and all the Saint reviews are in this headlamp is on my want list. I just wish my cash = the want list.


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## 7th_Day_Guy (Nov 14, 2009)

Received my saint Wednesday Nov, 11. From battery Junction:twothumbs. I liked the way it fits and rides nice on the head. Features and controls were fantastic. The prismatic halo thingy, sucks bad really bad actually! So is this it? Was this the finished product I paid for 10 months ago, and we all waited patiently and some not so patiently for? Really? Come-on surefire!:thumbsdow


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## nzgunnie (Nov 16, 2009)

Mine arrived in NZ today. Box went straight to the wife... wont see it again till Christmas!

Hopefully it will be worth the extra wait.


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## cave dave (Nov 16, 2009)

Mine arrived last week but I only had a few minutes to try it, before the girl friend caught me. I had to rush to pack the car to head down to NC for indoor skydiving in a vertical wind tunnel. (much cooler than flashlights  )
Thank gosh the wind tunnel is so far away. I'd would seriously have no money for flashlights.


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## DM51 (Nov 17, 2009)

cave dave said:


> Mine arrived last week but I only had a few minutes to try it, before the girl friend caught me. I had to rush to pack the car to head down to NC for indoor skydiving in a vertical wind tunnel. (much cooler than flashlights  )
> Thank gosh the wind tunnel is so far away. I'd would seriously have no money for flashlights.


LOL! 

Dave, when you get time off from the g/f and the wind tunnel, a review of the HS1 from an experienced caver such as yourself would be extremely useful - you cavers really put lights through their paces, and hard use must be what the HS1 is designed to tolerate.


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## cave dave (Nov 18, 2009)

So far I don't like the beam or prismatic artifacts so I will probably sell it without ever using it. It is unlikely I will put the HS1 through it paces.


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## Size15's (Nov 18, 2009)

It seems that occasionally these slip through with undesirable beams. I urge you to call SureFire and arrange to have it replaced.


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## jimbosan72 (Nov 19, 2009)

Ups brought me my Saint tonight. This is the moment i've been waiting for along time. initial thought is comfortable, lighter than it looks and great beam for night hikes. There is a thin line of bright light that doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the beam. That thin beam aims at my feet when light is pointed forward. I still love the headlamp. Btw thanks Batteryjunction.com I received it one day after you shipped it. Great service again. Jim


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## zemmo (Nov 25, 2009)

Is anyone using RCR's in the Saint or Minimus? I'd like to know for sure that Li-on is ok in my Minimus? TIA.


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## Patriot (Nov 25, 2009)

cave dave said:


> So far I don't like the beam or prismatic artifacts so I will probably sell it without ever using it. It is unlikely I will put the HS1 through it paces.




I had to opportunity to play with one locally at a great SF dealer and noticed the same thing regarding the "prismatic artifacts" which I think is a pretty good description. I suspected that it wasn't normal but then I read cave dave's post and saw csshih's pictures. Has anyone else seen this effect from the HS1? I'm just wondering if these are flukes are standard characteristics of the light.


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## Daniel_sk (Nov 25, 2009)

Patriot said:


> Has anyone else seen this effect from the HS1? I'm just wondering if these are flukes are standard characteristics of the light.


My Saint Minimus had the same artifacts. Not so noticeable at home, but it was really annoying in the forest - because you always had the feeling that something is moving in your peripheral vision. 
I returned to my old trusty Tikka XP (modded with Seoul) - I like the beam with the diffuser better and I have the choice between two beam patterns + color filters + instant access tu Turbo mode + ...


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## crizyal (Nov 25, 2009)

Mine has the "prismatic artifacts". The effect is minimal to me. I can see them if I look for them, though they have not bothered me in any way.


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## carrot (Nov 25, 2009)

I got to play with a friend's Saint Minimus and I didn't notice any weird artifacts. Either his is perfect, or you guys are noticing something I didn't. In any case, I was about to order one but then I saw Arc was having a sale... I will be getting one probably early next year instead.


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## yowzer (Nov 26, 2009)

What kind of throw does the Saint have? The Minimus I played around with a bit in REI didn't seem like it would have a whole lot of range -- more than a Zebralight, good for night hikes on trails, but not enough for serious route-finding or bushwhacking -- what I need in a high powered headlamp.


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## carrot (Nov 26, 2009)

If you need a lot of throw I don't think that the Saint will be for you. But it definitely has more throw than a Zebralight and seemed just about perfect to me. If I really need to see outside of the Saint's range, a handheld flashlight suffices.


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## yowzer (Nov 27, 2009)

carrot said:


> If you need a lot of throw I don't think that the Saint will be for you. But it definitely has more throw than a Zebralight and seemed just about perfect to me. If I really need to see outside of the Saint's range, a handheld flashlight suffices.



Like the Minimus, then (Unsurprising, considering they look like they share the same optics.) The flexibility of the Saint wrt to batteries, and the the dial-a-lumen make this light really appealing... maybe for christmas. The chromatic artifacts that quite a few people have mentioned as a negative is the only thing stopping the Saint from being a must-buy.

I pair up a headlamp with a handheld light now, which works most of the time, as long as you don't need both hands for something else. (Used to use a Black Diamond Icon, got sick of the 5mm leds. Been looking for a good alternative ever since. I suspect my ideal high powered throwy headlamp just doesn't exist, but the Saint and the HP10 sounded like the best bets.)


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## yowzer (Nov 28, 2009)

Found a store that had the Saint in stock and they let me play with it to the point of going into the stockroom and turning off the lights to use it in the dark. 

I like it. A lot. I almost bought it then and there, massive sales tax on top and all, but . Didn't notice any prismatic stuff going on, though the beam is funny shaped -- the spill area is rectangular, which I've seen before, but with concave sides. I don't think it'd be a big deal outdoors, but shining onto a wall, it's funky. Inside that square is a nice big normal shaped hotspot. The low is advertised as 1 lumen, but doing some quick comparisons with my D10, it's more like 3 or 4. The high of 100 lumens felt fairly accurate, maybe a bit understated but not to the levels Surefire is known for on the forum. 

The Saint looks to be an incredible medium-range light; able to do a Zebralight's job and more when the ZL just doesn't have the range. Wouldn't try skiing downhill with it, but for nighttime hiking, it'd be great. ZL still reigns supreme for around camp use because of the size and weight, but for trail use, I haven't seen anything else that comes close to the Saint in terms of general build quality and versatility. Now if only it had a warm tint LED...

I was going to get a SF Titan for Christmas, but I think Santa's going to be bringing a Saint instead.


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## Snow (Dec 3, 2009)

*So I bought a SF Saint (NOT Minimus) today*

I was driving across Missouri on my way to St Louis and saw a small store called Crane's Country Store just off the highway. On a whim I decided to stop, stretch my legs a bit, and see if they had any carbon steel Sodbusters. I stepped into a store that was much larger than it looked from the outside and PACKED with cool stuff. Lots of Carhartt and Filson. My eyes were quickly drawn to the packed SureFire display case. I looked in at the U2, M2, E2L, etc. and noticed a T1A. I thought it was unusual for a small store out in the middle of nowhere to have such an up to date and complete lineup of high end flashlights. 

My eyes drifted down to the bottom of the case where I saw a complete SureFire Saint in the box.  A gentleman came by and asked if I wanted to see anything. I said, "Sure! I'd love to see that headlamp. Nobody else has them yet!" He told me he had been waiting months for it and was glad to finally have it in stock.  He opened the box, handed me the light and proceeded to tell me the specs. Then we went to another room of the store and he turned off the lights so I could check it out in action. 

I slipped it on my head and dialed it on. A smooth beam of white light came out. Similar to a Zebralight but more focused. I looked for nasty tint, beam artifacts, or any flaws and found none.  I had been thinking of getting a Minimus to replace my faulty H501w but was still undecided. I started to tell the guy I would think about it and come back on my way back to Kansas City tomorrow when he offered me a _very _generous discount. I didn't even hesitate before agreeing. 

Unforunately, I don't have my camera, but I will be back home tomorrow and ready to post some pictures, including a comparison to the H501w. So far, I am very impressed with the Saint. I don't know if I'll use the full-sized battery pack much but it will be nice to have as an option. I still love the H501w and will probably send it in for repair and give Zebralight one last chance, but I any time I carry it, it will be playing backup to the Saint.


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## Launch Mini (Dec 3, 2009)

*Re: So I bought a SF Saint (NOT Minimus) today*

Awesome find
hopefully one will show up locally soon


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## Hugo2x (Dec 3, 2009)

*Re: So I bought a SF Saint (NOT Minimus) today*

I love seeing proper flashlights in brick and mortar store. So far all i've ever found is SF and Streamlight. I would freak out if I saw some Fenix's or Nitecores sitting in a display case.


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## joema (Dec 4, 2009)

yowzer said:


> ...I was going to get a SF Titan for Christmas, but I think Santa's going to be bringing a Saint instead.


I have a Minimus and T1A, and an quite dissapointed in the Minimus beam. It's quite greenish/yellow, with significant artifacts. See below images, taken with identical camera settings and fixed white balance.

Distance to white wall: 1 meter

These were captured as RAW on a Nikon D300 and converted to high quality jpg. Color-wise they mostly match the visual impression. No post processing except for slight cropping to center the beam.

Unlike many CPF'ers, I'm not very sensitive to tint. However in this case it's quite extreme. To the eye, the T1A beam pattern looks better than the pictures, and the Minimus looks worse than the pictures.

The Minimus beam has distinct dark square artifacts, probably the projected emitter die. I'm not a "white all hunter" and accept no beam is perfect. But the Minimus beam is such poor quality it's distracting to use. My less expensive Princeton Tec Apex Pro has a much better beam.

If this is typical of the Saint/Minimus beam, I'd suggest getting the T1A.

Surefire T1A:




Surefire Minimus:


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## yowzer (Dec 4, 2009)

joema said:


> I have a Minimus and T1A, and an quite dissapointed in the Minimus beam. It's quite greenish/yellow, with significant artifacts. See below images, taken with identical camera settings and fixed white balance.



The Saint I played with had a nice white beam. The LED tint lottery is alive and well with whatever SF's using (SSC?). For what it costs, if you don't like the tint, I'd exchange it for another until you get it right.


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## yowzer (Dec 4, 2009)

*Re: So I bought a SF Saint (NOT Minimus) today*



Hugo2x said:


> I love seeing proper flashlights in brick and mortar store. So far all i've ever found is SF and Streamlight. I would freak out if I saw some Fenix's or Nitecores sitting in a display case.



I was in a Fry's today and noticed that they had some Fenixes in stock along with the usual hordes of Maglights and LED Lensers. LD01, 10 and 20! Also saw some in a surplus store, along with a big selection of Surefires.


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## kwkarth (Dec 5, 2009)

yowzer said:


> The Saint I played with had a nice white beam. The LED tint lottery is alive and well with whatever SF's using (SSC?). For what it costs, if you don't like the tint, I'd exchange it for another until you get it right.



I would think for the price Surefire charges for their lights, they could and should be a lot more picky in choosing the LED's they ensconce in their goods.

This kind of sloppiness is going to catch up to, and hurt Surefire.

*WAKE UP SUREFIRE!!!!*


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## Woods Walker (Dec 5, 2009)

joema said:


> I have a Minimus and T1A, and an quite dissapointed in the Minimus beam. It's quite greenish/yellow, with significant artifacts. See below images, taken with identical camera settings and fixed white balance.
> 
> Distance to white wall: 1 meter
> 
> ...


 

I don't like it, not one bit. If I ever get a Saint I will go to a B&M shop and try before I buy.


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## Lightcrazycanuck (Dec 5, 2009)

Woods Walker said:


> I don't like it, not one bit. If I ever get a Saint I will go to a B&M shop and try before I buy.


 

+1


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## Woods Walker (Dec 5, 2009)

My PT Rebel EOS has a better beam and tint and I paid only 34 bucks. I mean they spend YEARS on this. Delay after delay.....Just sayin.....


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## nzgunnie (Dec 6, 2009)

....hmm, hope the one that came all the way to New Zealand will be better


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## Snow (Dec 6, 2009)

*Pics of the Saint...*

Well I finally found that my thread had been merged with this one. A courtesy PM might have been nice... Anyway, I know better pictures have been posted, but here are some of my Saint.






















I am very impressed with the construction quality. Parts are HA-BK aluminum and parts appear to be Nitrolon, of which I am a big fan. The entire battery pack is the Nitrolon type material and looks and feels very tough. Here are a few poorly taken beam shots.

Low (~1 lumen)





Medium (~10 lumens)





High (~100 lumens)





The low shot looks quite bluish, but I can't say it looks like that in real life. There also appears to be very little difference between medium and high, but again, that is not accurate. I don't have a very nice camera and my skills aren't up to par, so maybe that has something to do with it. Because of the lens, the outline of the die can be seen in the beam on a white wall, but I have not noticed it in real use. I will be able to post more impressions after a few weekends of using it while camping. Hope somebody finds this helpful.


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## sovereign (Dec 16, 2009)

tpchan said:


> Received my Saint Minimus today, and I'm happy with it. In case it hasn't yet been answered in this thread, the Minimus seems to work just fine with a rechargeable 16340 as long as you have a small magnet to put on the positive end to make a firm contact with the light. I used an AW IMR 16340 and the Minimus is working fine with it. Same as the SureFire T1A for working with 16340 cells.



This battery will work in the Saint box as well? I'm not up on the rechargeables.


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## sovereign (Dec 16, 2009)

Ordered a Saint. I'll see if I can figure out any recharge options down the road. I'm going to use it for winter commuting on a cyclocross bike. No high speed technical riding. If the beam is as bright as my old L2 it should work for the purpose. Plus, I can take it camping in the Minimus configuration.


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## nzgunnie (Dec 21, 2009)

Got my Saint yesterday.

The beam is a little uggly around the edges when white wall hunting, and the colour isn't the nicest on it's lower settings, but... I took it outside last night and you know what? It's fantastic once your actually using the thing.

Bright lights up an area bigger than my back yard with lots of flood. Low is plenty enough for finding your way around. Haven't tried reading with it yet so I'm no sure how good it will be for this, might do that tonight.

The form factor is very good, UI is good, but I'd prefer a more positive click to the off position, just to be sure.

Haven't tried it in minimus set up yet. So far I'm happy with it.


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## joema (Dec 22, 2009)

I'm definitely not happy with mine. I sent it back to Surefire, below is a beam shot of the "fixed" unit. It's hard to capture photographically the exact visual appearance. However this image is a rough approximation of how it appears under some conditions. Under other conditions, it's not this bad, in others it's worse.

Sometimes the dark inclusions in the beam pattern are so significant it interferes with use as an illumination tool. 

E.g, today I was looking for some stains on my carpet -- I often couldn't tell if the streaks and spots were on the carpet or just dark regions of the Minimus beam pattern. I finally gave up and used a headlamp with a higher quality beam pattern.


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## sovereign (Dec 27, 2009)

joema said:


> I'm definitely not happy with mine. I sent it back to Surefire...



Are you getting a replacement? Let us know how the replacement procedure works and if the new one is any better.


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## joema (Dec 27, 2009)

sovereign said:


> Are you getting a replacement? Let us know how the replacement procedure works and if the new one is any better.


The above pic IS the "repaired" light. I currently don't plan on sending it back a 2nd time within a couple of weeks.


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## kwkarth (Dec 28, 2009)

Apparently Surefire's standards have sunken pretty low. :sigh:


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## Edwood (Dec 29, 2009)

Is the lens in the Saint more of a Aspheric or TIR optic? 

It's typical for aspherics to have color change and artifacts in the beam from the center to the outer areas.

But TIR should be much more uniform than aspheric.

That said, I have a Saint on it's way. I played around with one at a store, and was very impressed with it's fit and finish and the rotary UI. 

I use a headlamp more for up close work, but I needed a bit more throw and runtime than my Zebralight.

-Ed


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## Lightcrazycanuck (Dec 31, 2009)

joema said:


> I'm definitely not happy with mine. I sent it back to Surefire, below is a beam shot of the "fixed" unit. It's hard to capture photographically the exact visual appearance. However this image is a rough approximation of how it appears under some conditions. Under other conditions, it's not this bad, in others it's worse.
> 
> Sometimes the dark inclusions in the beam pattern are so significant it interferes with use as an illumination tool.
> 
> E.g, today I was looking for some stains on my carpet -- I often couldn't tell if the streaks and spots were on the carpet or just dark regions of the Minimus beam pattern. I finally gave up and used a headlamp with a higher quality beam pattern.


 
BRUTAL,what else can you say.:shrug: :thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow


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## 007Runner (Jan 1, 2010)

*Surefire minimus*

Can this be reversed? So that the switch would be on the left side for a left handed person. Not easy being a southpaw in a right handed world.


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## John_Galt (Jan 1, 2010)

*Re: Surefire minimus*

I'm not quite sure how the mount works, but could you just flip it upside down?


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## 007Runner (Jan 1, 2010)

*Re: Surefire minimus*



John_Galt said:


> I'm not quite sure how the mount works, but could you just flip it upside down?


 
I don't know that is why I am asking. I do not own one to check this


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## Size15's (Jan 1, 2010)

*Re: Surefire minimus*

All you need to do it put it on the way round you prefer.
I suppose that would mean the headband logos are upside down but you can remove it and put it back on the other way.


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## MikeF (Jan 2, 2010)

*Re: Surefire minimus*



John_Galt said:


> I'm not quite sure how the mount works, but could you just flip it upside down?


 
Mine came without the headlamp and battery pack attached to the straps. The straps can be attached in either orientation as you attach the straps to the components. You might want to slide the cable management portion to the other side before assembly if it is important to you to have the strap's logos upright.
MikeF


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## MikeF (Jan 2, 2010)

Sorry I didn't notice that the thread had drifted from the original title. My comments above pertained to the Saint not the Minimus.  The Minimus does not have a cable management system since it doesn't have a battery pack. You can easily setup either headlamp for Right or Left handed operation.


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## NextLight (Jan 2, 2010)

The good news: My new Minimus works fine on "3V" RCR123As http://www.lighthound.com/3-Volt-RCR123a-Unprotected-Battery_p_30.htm Mine has now completed over 200 hours of testing. (about 14 battery cycles) The bad news: On the lowest setting, the light continues to run until the cell reaches 1.25V. This is NOT good for Li-ions. Run time to this point with these batteries is about 24 hours. On the highest S-O-S setting, the light will fall out of S-O-S mode at about 2.0V. Regulation in continuous mode is only fair. As others have said, some odd beam artifacts are present. The beam is not what I have come to expect from Surefire, but the light is still very useful for many hands-free low light tasks. Because of the wide beam pattern and artifacts, it is likely not the light for sprinting thru the woods, riding your mountain bike, or conducting an armed search of your back yard (the latter for many reasons besides beam pattern!) Mine has become a favorite task light for doing mechanical & electronic things in the dark. It is pretty comfy for extended wear, and is more stable than my other headlamp options. All in all, a worthwhile addition to my working collection.


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## dcycleman (Jan 3, 2010)

I took my minimus on night snow shoe hike last night. I gotta say I love it. I love that it has a dial I can use with heavily gloved hands, and I love that I can dial in 1 lumen. I was doing that constantly, most of the time you only want a little light. no taking gloves off, it fit verry comy over my winter cap. when I wanted to see the surronding areas I dialed up high and I think its perfect. the led outline that you see when white wall hunting is a complete non issue when in use. I was thinking of getting the battery pack for this but I dont know if I like the idea of three lithium batteries wired together strapped to my head. I think I may just keep on using it as the minimus.


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## IcantDo55 (Jan 15, 2010)

I really like my Saint! Went to the mountains last weekend in the dark outside it had an excellent beam and color looked good to me. Cam in the cabin and read a book in the dark, excellent. Run time was what I expected. Also like that all my lights now use the same battery. 

GOOD JOB SUREFIRE!


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## knf (Feb 12, 2010)

When you strip down the saint to use it as a minimus, is it possible to take the cable management clips off the strap, or are they permanently stitched on?

Thanks.


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## jp2515 (Feb 12, 2010)

knf said:


> When you strip down the saint to use it as a minimus, is it possible to take the cable management clips off the strap, or are they permanently stitched on?
> 
> Thanks.



The straps are permanently attached.


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## noahs (Feb 16, 2010)

jp2515 said:


> The straps are permanently attached.


Nope! They are in fact removable. It is hidden, but the plastic bar that the strap is attached to has a slit in the middle. Its a bit tricky to get on/off but I have done it. This allows you to get the wire holder off.


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## derangboy (Feb 16, 2010)

Cable management with the Saint is left side only. Two things prevent you from just flipping the lamp over as you would with the Minimus;
1) the top strap only clips into one side of the lamp assembly,
2) the battery box is asymmetrical and cannot be flipped.


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## WDR65 (Feb 22, 2010)

I just received my Minimus this last weekend. After trying it out inside saturday night I noticed the artifacts in the beam mentioned. Artifacts to me do not really matter much unless they actually interfere with the usability of the light.
Last night I had to replace some flashing on my back deck and decided to use the Minimus instead of my other headlamps. It worked great illuminating a large area in front of me so I could see where to nail the new flashing down. I didn't try it but I doubt my newer model PT Apex would have illuminated the area as well or as brightly throughout. 

While I still see myself using my Apex or EOSR in situations where I need throw I think that the Minimus will be my go to headlamp from now on. It is also the most comfortable headlamp that I have ever worn, surpassing Princeton Tec for the first time for me.


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## AndyStroup (Mar 7, 2010)

I have just got to get my two cents in here as I have a Saint and have used it for caving and hiking and pretty much everything else for that matter. Now let me start by saying that I have some very expensive headlamps that are much better. I like the weight and the battery options. The beam is rated at 100 lumens and the Surefire handheld LED rechargeable flashlight has the exact same rating and is much brighter. Maybe it's just because it has a big reflector and a clear lens. Really for a Surefire, the Saint and Minimus are not high dollar lights and maybe I have just bought enough lights to know that by design, this light would be best for low throw situations. If I want to see something a few hundred yards away, this light is not my first choice.


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## Quiksilver (Oct 26, 2011)

super bump

Thought I'd chime in.

Just got my SF Saint headlight the other day.

So far only used it for some running on the beach at night. I run barefoot so I have to keep a watch where I step for sharp stuff and dying but potent jellyfish. 

I enjoy this light, but I can see room for improvement. 

The comfort is 6/10 (its heavier than some of the plastic ones or a ZL H501.)
The UI is 9.99/10 (better UI than any ZL or other lights ive tried)
The build quality is 8/10. (rugged construction, nice HA aluminum).
The emitter is a 4/10. Its very large, seems old. I don't know what emitter it is.
The beam quality is a 5/10, compared to a 9/10 in the ZL H501. Like SF couldn't decide between a square beam or a circular beam. 

It's got good throw, but a frontmounted headlight is not supposed to be a thrower. I want peripheral vision. I don't like SFs philosophy of lateral (and not vertical) peripheral vision. I go hiking in jungles at night, and I have to keep an eye on my feet in case of snakes or other critters. At the same time I don't want to be bobbing my head up and down staring at my feet, which puts the strong part of the beam onto a close surface and deteriorates my night vision. I like the ZL H501 for this, but am unimpressed by the build quality of the H501. 

Overall it is a light I am confident with having as my only source of illumination. A niche light like the ZL H501 needs a thrower to compliment it as it has zero throw and that lends to a sense of claustrophobia in pitch-black jungles. The mediocre throw of the Saint counteracts this. 

I think the battery compartment and modularity is spectacular. 

I will reach for my Saint / Minimus instead of my ZL H501 (especially considering its faulty) in the future, when going to dark places. 

What would make me happier?

A beam like the ZL H501, and a newer emitter like an XM-L. The usual gripes with Surefire. 

However, the workmanship and UI has won me over.


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