# Multi-use Kennametal lathe tool ...



## wquiles (Sep 20, 2009)

I have a Kennametal lathe tool that is designed to work for turning, facing, and as a cut-off tool. Today I was making the Al plugs that I sell with my custom 1xD's, and I used my camera to take a video of the tool in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxe-JDL-u4o


Edit: I forgot the picture of the finished Al plugs:







Will


----------



## gadget_lover (Sep 20, 2009)

That was a nice video. 

I'd not noticed that tool before. I would not have thought that it would work that well, since the angles (relief as well as angle of attack) used for cut-off are usually different than what you would use for turning. Obviously, it works well for you.

The part you are doing is ideally suited for that tool. The facing cut is much like a parting cut. The stock removal as you turn the diameter is not real agressive.

I've used my parting blade in a similar manner when making a similar part. It worked OK but the 3/16 inch wide HSS blade was not quite stiff enough.

Do you prefer that tool over your normal AL style tools for general work?

Dan


----------



## Rothrandir (Sep 20, 2009)

Grooving inserts can actually do a decent job of turning under some circumstances. The side load on the insert/tool actually kicks the insert sideways just a bit and you end up with kind of a wiping action while cutting. Turning tools are better for turning of course, but there are certain jobs that benefit from using a grooving tool, especially in a manual machine such as this.


----------



## darkzero (Sep 20, 2009)

I would agree about the insert dislodging with side load when using a grooving/parting tool. I have this tool but in the 1/2" size using an iscar insert (sharper & cuts better than all the GTN inserts I've tried so far) & although the insert has grooves to seat in the blade holder I would never have thought to use it for a turning operation for that reason. However unlike the grooving/parting type tools in the link which are just "press fit", Will's holder is a clamp type so wouldn't it be somewhat safe for turning even if it's not designed to do so? I'm assuming the inserts on his holder should have the grooves for seating too. I know it would depend on the insert too. I'm curious......

Will, funny you should post this. I ordered a Kenametal holder for grooving that looks similar to yours (been eyeing it for a while, got a bonus Friday so I finally ordered it). It was only $45 new on ebay so I figured why not. A3SCR-0802-10. I'm sure yours is larger, mine is only 1/2" (as you know it's what I'm limited to). I haven't searched for what insert this takes. Is it the same type & if so what inserts does it take? Thanks & very nice BTW! :twothumbs


----------



## wquiles (Sep 20, 2009)

Dan - To answer your question, I normally use my CNMG 43x tool for turning and facing because I can be very aggressive with 6061 Al and easily cut 0.1" (0.2" total diameter reduction) per pass. For cutting off on metal, I normally use an Iscar Do-Grip blade/insert for cutting off (best I have tried - that was the one that I later modified with the carbide grinder wheel to give it an angle instead of being neutral). But for these Al plugs, this particular tool allowed me to do everything without any tool change, so it was just "convenient" since I was making 10 of them in this batch.

After making the small relief for the Neg battery contact, the cut that I make is 0.043" deep, and I do move left for about 0.360", before parting the piece. I have absolutely zero chatter, even when parting close to 2" away from the chuck. The Al piece is 6061 and it is 0.75" dia. Speed is the max for my lathe with the belts in "low", which is 1200 RPM. And you guys are right, I am not even pushing it - just a leisure cut which hardly loads the motor - the poor man's mister just makes everything easier 

According to Kennametal literature this is a piece for a CNC setup in which one tool can do several jobs, so it was actually designed for this multi-use role. That, and being on special with 10 inserts, was the reason I decided to try it. 

In my opinion, there are several reasons this particular design works so well for these lateral forces:
- the angles in the carbide insert are cut to allow these operations
- the insert appears also to be ground, rather than just molded - it feels very sharp compared to most carbide inserts.
- the insert/holder lip's each have matching grooves that lock the insert in place - since it is then clamped in place, it simply does not move on the lateral cuts
- the whole assembly is "very" stiff and solid - which is why I don't detect any chatter

Some close-ups of the actual tool (it was a 3/4" shank before I modified it for my 5/8" holders):
















Will


----------



## saltytri (Sep 20, 2009)

Will:

Can your give us the part number and source for the deal with inserts?

Is it available in 5/8 or 1/2 shank size?

David


----------



## precisionworks (Sep 21, 2009)

Here's a page from the Kenna catalog about the tool:

http://www.kennametal.com/e-catalog...romloc=srch&parentId=1806729&sid=120FFB0AE71B

And the MSC catalog page:

http://metalworking.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT??PARTPG=N2LMSI&PMXREF=Y&PMPXNO=16674101

The inserts are the A2 style. 

http://metalworking.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=684&PMITEM=80091952&PMCTLG=00


----------



## wquiles (Sep 21, 2009)

It is actually the A4, not the A3 series from Kennametal. Here is the original packaging:











Here is the link at the Kennametal site:
http://www.kennametal.com/e-catalog/ProductDetail.jhtml?XMLArg=4049.xml&MMNumber=1953179&fromloc=srch&parentId=1953179&sid=123DD08CAD3F


And my apologies as I did not mean to imply that this was a recent special. I bought this kit from MSC back in Dec/Jan - quite a long time ago. The kit with holder and inserts were like $80-90 if memory serves me 


Here are some images and macro close-ups on the actual insert - you can see the ground marks on the face. Note the releif on all sides:


----------



## KowShak (Sep 21, 2009)

The part of the tool that holds the insert isn't very thick on this sort of tool, so you've got to be careful when turning with it. There are "reinforced" type toolholders like the one precisionworks linked to, where there is an extra piece of metal that connects the blade of the parting tool to the body, it has a cylindrical cut taken out of it so that the tool can still get into some of the places that the un-reinforced tool can, although not all.

MirageMan provided a picture of the type of part of tool I'm trying to describe.






From this thread: 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/215747
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e163/wsanz/Lathe/parting_tool1.j


----------



## saltytri (Sep 21, 2009)

Thanks for the info, gentlemen! I've recently picked up an 8x12 to convert to CNC and this tool looks as it it might be very useful in that application. Heck, it could shape a complex light body and cut some nice cooling fins all with a single program and without tool changes. :thumbsup:

David


----------



## precisionworks (Sep 21, 2009)

> cut some nice cooling fins


It may work for that, depending on the width of the cut you want. The narrowest width in the A2 style cutter is .063", which may be wider than you want on a small light. A dedicated grooving tool will go much smaller, if you need that.


----------



## wquiles (Sep 21, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> It may work for that, depending on the width of the cut you want. The narrowest width in the A2 style cutter is .063", which may be wider than you want on a small light. A dedicated grooving tool will go much smaller, if you need that.



For a dedicated grooving tool, after lots of searching, including a cheap supply of new inserts in Ebay, I settled on the Kennametal Top Notch system. With this system, you have an extremely solid/rigid setup, which allows you to cut grooves, thread, etc.. In fact, it is so popular and cheap on Ebay that I now have lots of inserts, and two holders, one setup for a round bit, that I used for these grooves:






and another one for very narrow grooves. Here are both of my holders and inserts - I think I paid less than $0.50 each for those inserts!:
















Edit: Not the cheapest, but this is the same exact holder that I have:
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-LATHE-TOOL-KENNAMETAL-TOP-NOTCH-CARBIDE-INSERT-R462_W0QQitemZ360190085139QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53dd008813&_trksid=p4999.c0.m14

10 brand new inserts usually go for anywhere from $5 to $15 :
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-in-Box-10-pcs-KENNAMETAL-NG230RK-KC720-TOP-NOTCH-US_W0QQitemZ200386438362QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea7f664da&_trksid=p4999.c0.m14
http://cgi.ebay.com/5-NEW-KENNAMETAL-TOP-NOTCH-INSERTS-SIZE-4-L-H-180_W0QQitemZ230378780613QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a3a537c5&_trksid=p4999.c0.m14
http://cgi.ebay.com/10-NEW-KENNAMETAL-TOP-NOTCH-INSERTS-SIZE-4-185-LH_W0QQitemZ330360872584QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4ceb0ade88&_trksid=p4999.c0.m14

The only catch is that since it is so freaking popular, there are TONS of insert options, and sizes, so one must be SURE you are buying the right one, which go by size (2, 3, 4 going larger ...), and R for right hand and L for left hand, and the right/left hand are opposite for the boring bars (right hand cutting boring bar uses left hand inserts). Those two holders that I showed above are size 3, and are right hand. 

Will


----------



## saltytri (Sep 21, 2009)

Will:

The pictures may be deceptive but it looks as if the insert in your A4SMR120314 is neutral but, of course, it is a right hand holder. What gives?

Do you know the part number of the insert you're using.

It looks as if the A4SMR100214 may be a better bet for a small machine, as it has a 5/8ths shank.


----------



## wquiles (Sep 21, 2009)

saltytri said:


> Will:
> 
> The pictures may be deceptive but it looks as if the insert in your A4SMR120314 is neutral but, of course, it is a right hand holder. What gives?
> 
> ...



Right hand, as in a lathe cutting tool means that it starts the cut from the right side, and moves towards the chuck or towards the left. Left, right, or neutral, when talking about a cut-off tool/bit, refers to which side gets the "nub". It is perfectly "legal" to have a right hand holder with a left cut-off tool 

This is a right hand tool holder:
http://grizzly.com/products/G7028

This is a left hand tool holder:
http://grizzly.com/products/Lathe-Tool-Holder-Left-Hand/G7029

This is from the Kennametal site:
"Cut-Off Inserts:

Cut-off inserts are designed in neutral and right-hand or left-hand cut.

* Neutral inserts -- (cutting edge parallel with work piece) are used primarily in solid material and produce a center “stub“ on both the workpiece and the part when using solid material stock. Neutral inserts also reduce side deflection.
* Right-hand cut or lead inserts leave a center “stub“ or bur on the chuck side of the workpiece and produce a clean part.
* Left-hand cut or lead inserts leave a center “stub“ or bur on the part and produce a clean workpiece nearest the chuck side."


And yes, you are right. The insert I used is actually for cutting off, and it is in fact neutral: A4C0305N00CF02 (KC5025 grade)

Will


----------



## cmacclel (Sep 21, 2009)

wquiles said:


> I can be very aggressive with 6061 Al and easily cut 0.1" (0.2" total diameter reduction) per pass.
> 
> Will


 
Will with my Grizzly which is about the same as your lathe I could bury the whole carbide tip of a 1/2" shank ER style tool and you would just start to hear the motor work. .100 is not any where near aggressive on a lathe your size 

Mac


----------



## saltytri (Sep 21, 2009)

Thank you, Will. That's very helpful! 

David


----------



## wquiles (Sep 21, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> Will with my Grizzly which is about the same as your lathe I could bury the whole carbide tip of a 1/2" shank ER style tool and you would just start to hear the motor work. .100 is not any where near aggressive on a lathe your size



Thanks Mac. I honestly have not tried to see how big a cut I could take past 0.150" (total 0.3"). Now I have something to try :devil:

Will


----------



## wquiles (Sep 21, 2009)

saltytri said:


> Thank you, Will. That's very helpful!
> 
> David



You are welcome 

Glad to help spend "your" money. Now I know how Barry feels when he gives us advice 

Will


----------



## saltytri (Sep 21, 2009)

Actually, Will, you're no slacker when it comes to making others spend money. A 6" 6-jaw Bison took up residence on my lathe just yesterday and you're not exactly an innocent bystander. I promise not to give your name to my wife. :naughty:


----------



## wquiles (Sep 22, 2009)

saltytri said:


> Actually, Will, you're no slacker when it comes to making others spend money. A 6" 6-jaw Bison took up residence on my lathe just yesterday and you're not exactly an innocent bystander. I promise not to give your name to my wife. :naughty:



I know you will enjoy the Bison chuck as much as I do. Once you get it dial-in, you will see why I feel it is definitely the best purchase ever for my lathe 

Will


----------



## Atlascycle (Sep 25, 2009)

This tool is Awesome!!! Just tried it tonight turning a 13 degree taper on a .75" long piece of delrin, Plowing right through and then parting off, I'll try to get some pics up tomorrow.


Jason


----------



## Atlascycle (Sep 28, 2009)

I decided to make a little modification to the insert before I got started using it,







It sure is nice to have surface grinders on hand....

Jason


----------



## wquiles (Sep 28, 2009)

Jason,

I can't tell what you did to the insert


----------



## Atlascycle (Sep 28, 2009)

I ground the insert from neutral to right hand.


Jason


----------



## wquiles (Sep 28, 2009)

Atlascycle said:


> I ground the insert from neutral to right hand.
> 
> 
> Jason



Ahh - yes, nice mod. I recently did the same to an insert in my Iscar Do Grip cut-off tool:


----------



## Atlascycle (Sep 30, 2009)

Will,

have you done a lot of turning with this tool yet? how is the BUE?

Jason


----------



## wquiles (Oct 1, 2009)

Jason,

I don't use the tool often enough, plus when cutting metal I run my Kool Mist clone, so I don't have much BUE to speak off anyway:
Kool Mist Clone for 12x lathe


----------



## Atlascycle (Oct 1, 2009)

Thanks Will, 

I have been using the heck out of this cutter, I am cutting 6061 1.125" bar, the part has a taper on it, the finished piece is .75" tall, with a 13 degree taper and the large diameter is 1.060". I make 2 roughing passes and one finish pass.

I did however this morning find a misting coolant applicator in a bench drawer at work this morning, the problem is most of the time when i am making this parts the plant is closed and there is not any air available, Might have to figure out something to get this to work.


Jason


----------



## wquiles (Oct 1, 2009)

Atlascycle said:


> Thanks Will,
> 
> I have been using the heck out of this cutter, I am cutting 6061 1.125" bar, the part has a taper on it, the finished piece is .75" tall, with a 13 degree taper and the large diameter is 1.060". I make 2 roughing passes and one finish pass.
> 
> ...


I know what you mean by lack of air. I also did not had adequate air in my "shop", plus the compressor that I had was extremely loud/noisy, and recently got a nice, quality compressor from Eaton - now I am set for the time being :twothumbs
Eaton Air Compressor

Will


----------



## Atlascycle (Oct 1, 2009)

Will,

I have plenty of supply available, Around 600SCFM but we only run 2 shifts and shut down the air system at night and I come in to work in the tool room on personal projects before the system gets started up for the day. We do however have a 5hp compressor that supplies air to our Wire cut EDM's so they can run around the clock, might have to tap that supply to get the mister working,

Jason


----------



## precisionworks (Oct 1, 2009)

> Around 600SCFM


I worked at a factory that was spread out over 10 acres, and had 1000 scfm total. There was so much leakage that one of the two "little" 50 hp rotary screws ran 24/7 just to keep the system somewhat pressurized. The start up crew (me & one other mechanic) were responsible for bringing the 150 hp & the 100 hp online at 5:00 a.m. - so the shift that started at 6:00 would have ready air :thumbsup:

It was surely nice to run a 50 scfm die grinder with adequate air & zero moisture.


----------



## wquiles (Oct 1, 2009)

Cool - it looks like it would be possible then. My mister took a little while to fine-tune, and I even made a new couple of tips for it to get the pattern that I wanted. I also played with the air pressure being delivered, and settled on 40 psi, so I bought a $20-something in-line regulator just for the mister, and now I have a consistent pattern, while I run about 80PSI everywhere else in my "shop". With the adjustment screw in the block I can get anywhere from a light mister (what I normally use) to a heavier mist (typically for parting only), to a heavy and fast floor/stream (which I never had the need for!). 

I used to part/cut parts or bore the inside of Mag tailcap and the parts would get to hot that I could not pick up the part afterwards due to being so hot to burn my hand - now with the mister, everything stays MUCH more cooler, and so far never too hot to pickup with my bare hand. In fact, the modified tailcaps come out "cold" - colder than ambient!. So not only I have lubrication that makes the tool cut better, the edge last longer, to have less BUE, but also got an improvement from an ergonomic/usability point of view 

Will


----------



## Atlascycle (Oct 1, 2009)

Will

Which chipbreaker is on the insert that you are using?


----------



## wquiles (Oct 1, 2009)

Atlascycle said:


> Will
> 
> Which chipbreaker is on the insert that you are using?



The box with my A4 inserts reads:

A4G0300M03P02GMP KC5025

which is listed as their "Precision-Ground Inserts" with positive rake angle inserts at the MSC On-line catalog (when you click on the link, select the next page):
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=834&PMT4NO=71715118&PMT4TP=*ITPD&PMITEM=64924152&PMCTLG=54

Will


----------



## KC2IXE (May 1, 2010)

wquiles said:


> Thanks Mac. I honestly have not tried to see how big a cut I could take past 0.150" (total 0.3"). Now I have something to try :devil:
> 
> Will


Reading this old thread. .1 on your lathe? Trivial dude. I have a little 12" atlas, probably one of the lightest duty 12" lathes ever made (BUT it is the cabinet base which does help), and I regularly take .15 and more cuts in 6061 and 1000 RPM and the lathe doesn't even slow down (That's been with TPG-22x inserts - which have a neutral rake)

I'm just getting a larger holder for CNMG-43x inserts, so I'll be able to try deep cuts with a chip breaker - probably sometime next week...


----------



## wquiles (May 1, 2010)

KC2IXE said:


> Reading this old thread. .1 on your lathe? Trivial dude...


Yup, once I decided to try, I now regularly cut up to .2" to .25" (.4-.5" total dia reduction) on Al . It is amazing how much metal can be removed in a hurry :thumbsup:


----------

