# Wicked Lasers 445nm <1W Spyder III Pro Arctic Series



## herbicide

Just spotted this.

Do not obstruct beam with remaining... limbs?

Joking aside, that looks truly, intimidatingly scary.


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## StarHalo

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

And only $228?! This creates a whole new level of applications; it's definitely powerful enough to kill insects, for example..


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## Kestrel

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I found this part interesting:
Warning: Extremely dangerous is an understatement to the power of 1W of laser power. It will blind permanently and instantly and set fire quickly to skin and other body parts, use with extreme caution and only when using the included eye protection. [...]
Wow.


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## Per-Sev

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I can see it now a bunch of blind kids running around with no fingers and burn holes all over there body's. Just kidding but the way they advertise it if you break the beam with your skin it will burn you and you must where special glasses what about when you want to show your friends you would need glasses for everyone or you could blind them. They should include more than one pair of glasses with them just to be safe. I like it though I wonder how far away it will take out a fly?


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## TheFathomlessBlue

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I just ordered one. It will be stored in my gun safe, becasue it is about as dangerous as a hand gun. But I figure they can't be allowed to sell these long before a lawsuit suits them down. I will post when it shows up.


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## StarHalo

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



TheFathomlessBlue said:


> I just ordered one.









Get plenty of photos and burn test results, it'll be a very popular thread..


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## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



TheFathomlessBlue said:


> I just ordered one. It will be stored in my gun safe, becasue it is about as dangerous as a hand gun. But I figure they can't be allowed to sell these long before a lawsuit suits them down. I will post when it shows up.


A 1-watt laser won't kill anyone, it'll just (permanently) blind and cause small burns, and maybe cancer several years after exposure. The scary part is that reflections and even scattered light from this laser can overwhelm the retina and damage it.


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## TheFathomlessBlue

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Yeah but with a 1watt laser this cheap and availalbe some one will do something stupid and the next thing you know Sanjay Gupta will have a special on CNN about it and the feds wil shut Wicked down...

My 50mw unit I picked up a few years ago is a neat toy...

http://img532.imageshack.us/i/auction001am9.flv/http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/7126/auction001am9.flv

This thing is a freakin weapon. But it would be the buy of a century if it is what they claim it is.


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## SmurfTacular

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

*I JUST BOUGHT ONE

VIDEO REVIEW PENDING*


Omg, I can't wait.

Just last week I bought a 500mW 532nm (green) Viasho RPL. I would love to see how these two monsters compare.




StarHalo said:


> ... it's definitely powerful enough to kill insects, for example..




Insects? More like small rodents! :devil:


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## StarHalo

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Fun video idea: get a block of dry ice and see if the laser can cut it in half (outdoors), should be quite the volcanic show..


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## Tally-ho

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



AnAppleSnail said:


> maybe cancer several years after exposure


Especially if you light your cigarets with it.


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## crossliner67

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



SmurfTacular said:


> *I JUST BOUGHT ONE*
> 
> *VIDEO REVIEW PENDINGUpdates*
> 
> 
> Omg, I can't wait.
> 
> Just last week I bought a 500mW 532nm (green) Viasho RPL. I would love to see how these two monster compare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Insects? More like small rodents!


:huh:Updates please!


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## yuandrew

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

A search for the WickedLasers "Arctic" revealed the source of the diode was the Casio GreenSlim ultra-portable projector. Uses both blue lasers and red LEDs plus some fluorescent material on a color wheel that produces green light when exposed to the blue laser's radiation. Rated 2500ansi lumens. 

http://www.superslimprojector.com/features

The projector itself costs a grand but further reading found out that it doesn't just have one diode, it has an array of 24.

Now if you take the unit apart, tilt out the array, and bypass the interlocks.......


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## ejot

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

It really scares me that something this powerful so accessible. The word has spread very quickly, it's up on Gizmodo now, etc. Someone *is* going to get hurt. 

Showed one of my colleagues this morning and he immediately ordered two. :devil: 

I *think* I just ordered one but no email confirmation. Tried calling them to check on the order and, after 45min on hold, finally got to talk to someone who was able to tell me.... 




wait for it ....








" We're swamped. Our system is down. Can't tell you anything. Sorry. "


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## StarHalo

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



ejot said:


> " We're swamped. Our system is down. Can't tell you anything. Sorry. "



Somebody probably damaged their system with a 1-watt laser..


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## IdeaRat

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Also on order. Got 2 sets of glasses in case I'd actually like to show someone. (might want to put the glasses in front of the camera to be safe too ) Got the order confirmation email, so presumably it went through.

Didn't read until later that if you put in the coupon code WLSURVEY you can get 5% off. They give you the coupon code after your order.

Time to stock up on a gross of black balloons.


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## BenjiBot

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



TheFathomlessBlue said:


> I just ordered one. It will be stored in my gun safe, becasue it is about as dangerous as a hand gun.



This line featured in a free UK newspaper today, printrun of 1.3 million. Online version here: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/830936-powerful-lightsabre-on-sale-for-135

wow


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## W.Y.N.I

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Jesus, the Metro? Either they just googled lasers and found this place or someone on their staff is a closet flashaholic...

But seriously, its beginning to make national news here in the UK now, so its just a matter of time until it gets brought down by a media pressured legal case. Personally, I can see how peoples gut reaction would be to be scared at such an advanced and effective weapon being available so cheaply. However, there are many websites openly marketing and selling weapons for much less. I cant really foresee a day I arrest someone for carrying one of these, but before I retire I imagine I shall be finding many more swords, hatchets, knives, guns etc etc etc


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## jellydonut

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

People usually are neo-luddites if they don't allow themselves to think. People probably told the dudes who came up with fire, the wheel, the steam engine and the digital computer that what they were doing was too dangerous for man to handle.

In the mean time automobiles and kitchen knives continue to be vastly more lethal and maiming than this laser.


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## Mattmanic

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



BenjiBot said:


> This line featured in a free UK newspaper today, printrun of 1.3 million. Online version here: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/830936-powerful-lightsabre-on-sale-for-135
> 
> wow



Damn you!  I'd just taken a picture of the article in question, I'd forgotten that the Metro puts all their stories on their site...


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## was.lost.but.now.found

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



jellydonut said:


> In the mean time automobiles and kitchen knives continue to be vastly more lethal and maiming than this laser.


 
The difference is you need a license to drive a car, and a kitchen knife cannot blind or burn someone from who knows how far away, a 100 meters, a mile, more? For a knife to cause significant damage you, generally speaking, must intend to do that damage, not simply press a button.


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## hugodrax

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Word is Alqaida is ordering a bunch to do sabotage in the US.

Think about it, silent but dangerous weapon.

" At this level of irradiance, skin exposure to the intense blue laser light can possibly cause cancer. Do not allow bare skin to be exposed, including your face when wearing safety goggles, to light diffusely reflected from any surface closer than several inches. This laser is a thousand times stronger than sunlight on skin and any type of exposure should be avoided whether it be from the collimated beam or close exposure to its bright diffused reflections."

I predict after a batch of em are sold they will no longer be available.


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## bshanahan14rulz

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Old news :nana:

BTW, red LED, not LEDs. Talk to some of the GB headers, look like PL red large die. 

And I predict this is an intro offer to get these out in the public. Then they'll show up on youtube, but by that time, the intro price of 197 will be gone and it will instead be 1000, like all their other lasers.

Do you know that if you didn't want that 1W of blue but only had $200, you'd have to settle for 0.005W of blu-ray? That's like owning a gun store and saying "you can buy this here .177 Daisy Red Ryder, it's $200. We also just got a shipment of these .50 M82A1's for $200. Take your pick"


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## Per-Sev

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I just called Wicked Laser and she told me that they are about a week away from completion so when there website says in stock they are not according to the girl I spoke to. I did not have to wait long to speak to someone I guess they fixed the problem. I also asked if the safety glasses would fit over my glasses and she could answer that question she said call back later and talk to Jim in tech support.


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## RepProdigious

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Wow, someone is really going to use one of these in a irresponsible and dangerous way! People will get hurt!


Now ill go out and buy one myself, how friggin cool would i look lighting my cigar with one of these bouncing the beam between mirrors in my room


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## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



hugodrax said:


> Word is Alqaida is ordering a bunch to do sabotage in the US.
> 
> Think about it, silent but dangerous weapon.


There are better ways. It's not terribly easy to hit someone's eye at sabotage ranges. And the moment you cut it on, bright blue. Thank goodness *this *laser's in the visible range. UV lasers scare me.


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## paulr

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

This is crazy. It is MUCH more likely than a handgun to injure someone. A person can be blinded not only by direct exposure, but also by the beam reflecting off any shiny surface. What will they sell next--nerve gas? What is a legitimate use of a laser like this? Screwing around with it to light cigarettes is just nuts. I'm no lawyer but this device sounds like a recipe for what I think is called a "strict liability tort".


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## Kevin1322

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I've been reading along and following this too. I have a couple of questions perhaps somebody can answer for me: 

1. As asked before me, really, what would you use this for? So far I've heard: to show off, to light a cigar, and burn bugs...

2. Just how dangerous is it? Yes, it could permanetly blind you and burn your skin, but how quickly? Would the laser have to be placed less than an inch away for 10 minutes, or is more like instantainiously up to 100 yards? 

3. And this goes along with the other two, will it go through clothes or anything else? Would it be good for self defense?

Forgive me for my ignorance with lasers. I really do not know the answers to these questions. Being compared to a firearm and a cigar lighter are two quite different things. :thinking:


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## paulr

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Kevin1322 said:


> 2. Just how dangerous is it? Yes, it could permanetly blind you and burn your skin, but how quickly? Would the laser have to be placed less than an inch away for 10 minutes, or is more like instantainiously up to 100 yards?


 Instaneous (faster than the blink reflex, that's what makes these things so dangerous), essentially unlimited distance, including reflections off things.


> 3. And this goes along with the other two, will it go through clothes or anything else? Would it be good for self defense?


 Probably useless, like sticking a pin in the person. If you want a handgun, buy one and get proper training in using it.


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## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Kevin1322 said:


> 3. And this goes along with the other two, will it go through clothes or anything else? Would it be good for self defense?


You can instantly and permanently blind anyone whose eyes you can touch with the beam. I'd call that 'excessive force.' It puts 1 watt of heat on a small spot - I'm not sure exactly how fast that will burn, but I can feel the heat from a 3-watt flashlight if I touch the bezel to my skin.

It is probably not easy to hit someone with this. Also, it may not be instant blindness, but their retina will be damaged and they will go blind over the next dozen hours from momentary exposure.


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## IMSabbel

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



paulr said:


> Instaneous (faster than the blink reflex, that's what makes these things so dangerous), essentially unlimited distance, including reflections off things.
> Probably useless, like sticking a pin in the person. If you want a handgun, buy one and get proper training in using it.



Okay, working around x-ray and visible lasers, lets dissect this myth:

a) instantaneous: OK. That is true. For a localized spot on the retina. A drop of acetone hitting your eye could be worse.

b) faster than the blink reflex: Yes, if you aim it right through your pupil and then switch it on. Any other way might trigger the blink reflex before the main mode enters your eye

c1) Infinite range: Well, because maybe 15m it will be bigger than the pupil of the eye, so any further distance will reduce the power by r^2. At 150m its the level of a typical laser pointer at short range
c2) c1 requires a steady hold. Without a tripot, at longer distances the entering time of the eye by the laser is likely to be limited in the ms region, rendering it harmless

d) reflections dont matter: If you use polished, flat metal or a mirror. Any other way will fasten the dispersion enormously.

Yes, it is NO toy, and it should NOT be placed in the hands of children (as well as adults who think everybody can be used as "self defense weapon").
But everybody is working with MUCH more dangerout stuff everyday (especially since the unlimited range is bullshit). And what i find even more bewildering this agitation by americans who do not seem to have a single problem with having a gun instead?!.

By creating that image of the death ray thats more dangerous that a gun you will only draw the wrong people to such stuff. The ones that are bored if its not even sorching white paper and than try to aim it at their buddy.


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## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I sit very corrected - I'll spread the right stuff next time lasers come up.


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## nanomu

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



IMSabbel said:


> Yes, if you aim it right through your pupil and then switch it on.



Sadly, this is exactly how many people get hurt by lasers. :sigh:

I'm with most other commenters that this product is an accident and lawsuit waiting to happen. Assuming it comes with appropriate safety lockouts and WARNINGS, it's really the buyers/users own fault if someone gets hurt.

Regardless of how this is being marketed, a laser is NOT a self defence device or a toy.

To those who did order this and know what they're doing: be safe and enjoy your new "not a toy"! :twothumbs


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## Kevin1322

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Thanks everyone for the information.

paulr: *[off-topic content removed - DM51]* I would agree with you *[off-topic content removed - DM51]* 

IMSabbel: Great information, but *[remainder of off-topic rant removed - DM51]* 

Rant over.


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## NeSSuS-GTE

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



IMSabbel said:


> Okay, working around x-ray and visible lasers, lets dissect this myth:
> 
> a) instantaneous: OK. That is true. For a localized spot on the retina. A drop of acetone hitting your eye could be worse.
> 
> b) faster than the blink reflex: Yes, if you aim it right through your pupil and then switch it on. Any other way might trigger the blink reflex before the main mode enters your eye
> 
> c1) Infinite range: Well, because maybe 15m it will be bigger than the pupil of the eye, so any further distance will reduce the power by r^2. At 150m its the level of a typical laser pointer at short range
> c2) c1 requires a steady hold. Without a tripot, at longer distances the entering time of the eye by the laser is likely to be limited in the ms region, rendering it harmless
> 
> d) reflections dont matter: If you use polished, flat metal or a mirror. Any other way will fasten the dispersion enormously.
> 
> Yes, it is NO toy, and it should NOT be placed in the hands of children (as well as adults who think everybody can be used as "self defense weapon").
> But everybody is working with MUCH more dangerout stuff everyday (especially since the unlimited range is bullshit). And what i find even more bewildering this agitation by americans who do not seem to have a single problem with having a gun instead?!.
> 
> By creating that image of the death ray thats more dangerous that a gun you will only draw the wrong people to such stuff. The ones that are bored if its not even sorching white paper and than try to aim it at their buddy.



You are greatly under-emphasizing the danger this laser poses.

You say "...any further distance will reduce the power by r^2".
I wouldn't have said it that way but that's essential right. The power decreases by four times every doubling of the beam radius.

But you don't know what the beam divergence is. So how can you determine the beam radius at any given distance?? If you don't know divergence you can't calculate the power/cm^2 at a given range. So your distance/power estimates don't hold any value.

This Maximum Permissible Exposure graph is so telling about how fast damage can occur. This is a 1000mw (1 Joule/second) laser. Even with a beam area of 1 cm^2, we're talking about damage from exposure on a time scale of something like .001 seconds.

And don't forget this warning...
*
Blue-light Hazard is defined as the potential for a photochemical induced retinal injury resulting from radiation exposure at wavelengths primarily between 400 nm and 500 nm. The mechanisms for photochemical induced retinal injury are caused by the absorption of light by photoreceptors in the eye. Under normal conditions when light hits a photoreceptor, the cell bleaches and becomes useless until it has recovered through a metabolic process called the visual cycle. Absorption of blue light, however, has been shown to cause a reversal of the process where cells become unbleached and responsive again to light before it is ready. This greatly increases the potential for oxidative damage. By this mechanism, some biological tissues such as skin, the lens of the eye, and in particular the retina may show irreversible changes induced by prolonged exposure to moderate levels of UV radiation and short-wavelength light.*

Anyway, I have a 125mw PHR-803T laser from Jayrob and that's dangerous enough for me as it is. I am genuinely worried for the people who will be 'playing' with this laser. Really.


BTW.... Your comparison to American gun ownership is an opinion we're better off discussing elsewhere.


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## Juggernaut

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I’m not very familiar with lasers “only have a Wicked Lasers Core 5mw laser” how does the visibility of the beam on the Artic series compare to a green laser? I thought green lasers were the easiest ones to see of all the colors. How much less visible are blue laser VS. green lasers? For example how much brighter “visibly” is the 1 watt blue laser over say a 100mw green laser?


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## Mjolnir

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Other companies are producing lasers using the diode taken from this projector as well, like this one with a slightly more modest enclosure:
http://www.novalasers.com/NOVAstore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=14&idproduct=109

EDIT: The page for the 1 watt laser is no longer on the Novalasers sight, but If you go into the "portable lasers" section the "atlantis" 1 watt laser is still there. However, if you click on the link, there is no page for it.


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## Soul_Feast

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Ouch! Reflections don't matter!? Reflections off water with this is 3-5% that's still 30-50mW! Glass? Up to 12%, that's 120mW!!! Over 5mW has the possibility to blind you (I got that from LPF, and the >5mW blinding you I got from every laser site, and every laser source I've seen). Also, this specific BLUE light has been known to cause serious optical issues, it has been noted that people start to lose their sensitivity to green with the amount of blue exposure seen here, actually with much less power than this. That's why at hospitals they aren't using blue anymore. High levels of blue are dangerous, ESPECIALLY HERE!! 1000mW of blue! Also, about the 5mW thing, 1%, just 1% is still 10mW! So, for this to NOT blind you, you need to be 'recieveing' <0.5% of the light, to be under 5mW. That means, don't shine platic bottles, no glass, no metal, water, NOTHING at ALL reflective. So all you got...is wall left. And then you have the issue of all the blue light. Safety glasses aren't an option here, they are NECESARY!!! Do NOT go around 'showing it off'.


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## Fat Boy

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I'm confused, I thought Lasers of this class could not be purchased in the US. Was that law(restriction) changed?


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## yellow

Juggernaut said:


> I’m not very familiar with lasers “only have a Wicked Lasers Core 5mw laser” how does the visibility of the beam on the Artic series compare to a green laser? I thought green lasers were the easiest ones to see of all the colors. How much less visible are blue laser VS. green lasers? For example how much brighter “visibly” is the 1 watt blue laser over say a 100mw green laser?


Damn, Juggernaut beat me to that question 
(I planned to pose when back from work today)


*Q1*: is this more power in blue "better" than a "normal" higher power greenie (100 mW, or so)?
I mean, when burning something is the main purpose - which with a 1 W must be the main purpose - why not use a Laser in pure form?
When there is a diode that makes a wavelenght of X, which is then shortened by a crystal and another shortened by another crystal to receive red/green/blue/... in the end, why not use the "original" diode without any of the wavelenght-crystals?

*Q2:* is this something like with led?
newer laser diode, being more efficient and thus getting brighter and more rugged?


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## Isak Hawk

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

yellow,

Q1: This is a laser in "pure form", 445nm wavelength (blue) is what's coming straight out of the diode. Green lasers on the other hand, use infrared diodes (invisible) and send the beam through crystals to convert it into green.

Q2: Pretty much yeah. Casio needed this diode for their projector, so there was a significant financial motive to develop and mass produce them.


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## Juggernaut

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

After doing a little research, I have determined that while this laser produces around 1 watt of power the human eye will only perceive it as bright as a 50mw green laser, so as far as having a high intensity beam “for viewing” there are much better and cheaper alternatives. However it has much higher burning capability compared to a green laser, even a green laser of 1000mw power will not be even comparable to this monster. 

LOL, who changed the title to “Portable Deathray”?!


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## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Fat Boy said:


> I'm confused, I thought Lasers of this class could not be purchased in the US. Was that law(restriction) changed?



There are restrictions. Wicked Lasers follows them. They don't sell as "Laser pointers" and they have some safety system, presumably.


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## Advil

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Juggernaut said:


> However it has much higher burning capability compared to a green laser, even a green laser of 1000mw power will not be even comparable to this monster.



are you sure? i thought 1W = 1W no matter what wavelength?

i have a 150mW novalaser


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## Isak Hawk

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Advil said:


> are you sure? i thought 1W = 1W no matter what wavelength?



Many materials absorb different wavelengths at different rates. Blu ray for example, is much better for burning than green.


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## bshanahan14rulz

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Juggernaut said:


> After doing a little research, I have determined that while this laser produces around 1 watt of power the human eye will only perceive it as bright as a 50mw green laser, so as far as having a high intensity beam “for viewing” there are much better and cheaper alternatives. However it has much higher burning capability compared to a green laser, even a green laser of 1000mw power will not be even comparable to this monster.
> 
> LOL, who changed the title to “Portable Deathray”?!



Yeah, there are plenty of more visible and cheaper lasers out there, but what about blue? You might pay $500 bucks or so and still only get about 20mW of 473. Now you can get a shorter blue (diode, too) with higher output. I, for one, would love to have a blue beam as bright as a 50mW green!

By the way, Osram just built a green laser in the lab capable of 50mW!!!!


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## Kevin1322

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



IMSabbel said:


> And what i find even more bewildering this agitation by americans who do not seem to have a single problem with having a gun instead?!.


 
Since we are talking about self protection and whether or not this laser is a possibility. I think everyone has the right to protect themselves, whether it be a laser or a firearm. I don't understand passivists myself.


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## StarHalo

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



bshanahan14rulz said:


> By the way, Osram just built a green laser in the lab capable of 50mW!!!!



"Where do they get those wonderful toys.."


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## was.lost.but.now.found

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Kevin1322 said:


> Since we are talking about self protection and whether or not this laser is a possibility. I think everyone has the right to protect themselves, whether it be a laser or a firearm. I don't understand passivists myself.


 
What puts a laser in the same class as a handgun, yet a different class than say a grenade, rocket launcher, switchblade, or other forbidden weapon? I don't think a laser fits the bill for a reliable choice as a self defense weapon or for protection under the Second Ammendment to the US Constitution.

For the record I own three firearms including a handgun.


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## Kevin1322

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



was.lost.but.now.found said:


> What puts a laser in the same class as a handgun, yet a different class than say a grenade, rocket launcher, switchblade, or other forbidden weapon? I don't think a laser fits the bill for a reliable choice as a self defense weapon or for protection under the Second Ammendment to the US Constitution.


What put's it in the same class? I wouldn't say it is. Though certainly they both have to be treated with respect and with responcibility do to the harm they can cause.
A reliable choice for self defense? Doesn't sound like it is. I was wondering if it would be; thinking it might cause enough pain to stop some one without being leathal.
Protection under the 2nd Ammendment? No, certainly not.
Again, let me reiterate my ignorance. I don't know much at all about lasers; that is why I have asked the questions I have earlier.


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## Foxx510

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Made the news in Australia http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2010/s2929967.htm


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## ejot

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Soul_Feast said:


> ... That means, don't shine platic bottles, no glass, no metal, water, NOTHING at ALL reflective. *So all you got...is wall left. *... (emphasis mine)



There is potentially enough power in the diffuse reflection off a light colored wall to blind you, even a few feet away.  It is that level of _*unintuitive*_ danger that makes this sucker scary in untrained hands.

I've been trained in the lab on lasers with invisible beams powerful enough to instantaneously cut your fingers off. That, however, is in a highly controlled environment. Know the rules, follow the rules, and you're safe. This product with a much less powerful and much more visible beam, it scares me more.

Don't get me wrong though, I can't wait to get it. :rock:


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## TorchBoy

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



BenjiBot said:


> This line featured in a free UK newspaper today, printrun of 1.3 million. Online version here: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/830936-powerful-lightsabre-on-sale-for-135


Great stuff! They even corrected the typo. Thank you TheFathomlessBlue for having the sense it keep it locked away in your gun safe when not in use.

FWIW I'm one of those people who dare say they're more dangerous than guns, just less lethal.


----------



## csshih

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



StarHalo said:


> "Where do they get those wonderful toys.."
> 
> http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/4596/batman04xf9.jpg



lmbo (laughing my backside off)


----------



## RyanA

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Man, just thinking about it makes my eyeballs hurt.


----------



## erikschorr

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Who's ordered one and actually received it?

Who's ordered one and has been told it's been shipped?

I've got an art project that would really benefit from this 1W beast, but don't want to waste my time if it's still just vaporware. I've yet to find anyone on the net who's said they've received one of these from wickedlasers or any other specific seller.


----------



## GreyShark

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



was.lost.but.now.found said:


> What puts a laser in the same class as a handgun, yet a different class than say a grenade, rocket launcher, switchblade, or other forbidden weapon? I don't think a laser fits the bill for a reliable choice as a self defense weapon or for protection under the Second Ammendment to the US Constitution.
> 
> For the record I own three firearms including a handgun.



None of those weapons are "forbidden" but for some of them you have to pay an extra tax. People freak out about things they're unfamiliar with but a lot of this "dangerous" stuff is a lot more common than you think. In the case of this laser the more I read about it the more it seems over-hyped. There are definitely some user safety issues to consider but that goes for my arc welder too. Heck, many people have been found wrapped around the PTO shaft of their tractor. Safety first, last and always. There's no way the thing is a "death ray" though and it isn't a useful self defense weapon. If you want a non-lethal self defense weapon get some good pepper spray. I'm unclear on exactly how hot you could make something with this laser but I could see potential applications in non-ferrous hobby metalurgy, freehand engraving, holography, optics experimentation and similar applications. I think all this wild hype is a lot more dangerous than these lasers are.


----------



## Zike

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Sorry guyz but I need to ask.

Do you really believe that wickedlasers will dismount a $800 casio projector to resell the laser for $195 for each order ?

Unless they succeed to get/purchase the laser diode alone, you might wait a long time before receiving your laser...

Isn't this also weird that they didn't publish a video of the laser in working condition ? The only videos you will get are slideshots of the commercial pictures...

So instead of waiting a long time for someone to really receive it and make a video, here is one from a guy that actually made it using the same laser diode from the that same projector:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__5CpKlr4-4

Enjoy !


----------



## Thujone

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Zike said:


> Sorry guyz but I need to ask.
> 
> Do you really believe that wickedlasers will dismount a $800 casio projector to resell the laser for $195 for each order ?



From what i have read there are many modules in the projector.


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Kevin1322 said:


> What put's it in the same class? I wouldn't say it is. Though certainly they both have to be treated with respect and with responcibility do to the harm they can cause.
> A reliable choice for self defense? Doesn't sound like it is. I was wondering if it would be; thinking it might cause enough pain to stop some one without being leathal.
> Protection under the 2nd Ammendment? No, certainly not.
> Again, let me reiterate my ignorance. I don't know much at all about lasers; that is why I have asked the questions I have earlier.


 
And that's exactly my point; not unlike my disagreements with a certain firearms association (which I will not get into here because I don't want to make this about politics), I do not believe in defending an argument simply for the sake of winning. I believe on judging each case on its own merits, and I personally don't see the merits of members of the general public having unrestricted and unlicensed access to a laser of this power. I find it further ironic that members in this very thread are voicing very similar concerns, followed by "and I just bought one".



GreyShark said:


> None of those weapons are "forbidden" but for some of them you have to pay an extra tax. People freak out about things they're unfamiliar with but a lot of this "dangerous" stuff is a lot more common than you think. In the case of this laser the more I read about it the more it seems over-hyped. There are definitely some user safety issues to consider but that goes for my arc welder too. Heck, many people have been found wrapped around the PTO shaft of their tractor. Safety first, last and always. There's no way the thing is a "death ray" though and it isn't a useful self defense weapon. If you want a non-lethal self defense weapon get some good pepper spray. I'm unclear on exactly how hot you could make something with this laser but I could see potential applications in non-ferrous hobby metalurgy, freehand engraving, holography, optics experimentation and similar applications. I think all this wild hype is a lot more dangerous than these lasers are.


 
Can you kindly send me a link to where I could right now purchase a live grenade without a special permit?

An arc welder cannot blind someone from 200m away.

Can you state the danger of this "wild hype"? Where is the danger? What right do you risk loosing? Again, I'll restate my belief that no one has a legitimate use for a laser of this power without also being able to apply for a special needs permit.


----------



## Isak Hawk

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Zike said:


> Sorry guyz but I need to ask.
> 
> Do you really believe that wickedlasers will dismount a $800 casio projector to resell the laser for $195 for each order ?
> 
> Unless they succeed to get/purchase the laser diode alone, you might wait a long time before receiving your laser...



There are 24 diodes in each projector. $800/24 = $33.33 for each diode


----------



## Fat Boy

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

can someone make the converstion for me 1W = ???mW I don't fully understand this, thanks.


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Fat Boy said:


> can someone make the converstion for me 1W = ???mW I don't fully understand this, thanks.


 
mW is a milliwatt, or a thousandth of a watt. 1000 mW = 1W.


----------



## Fat Boy

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

thanks, that what I though but also thought that CAN"T be true. I probably should not have ordered this now that I realize its full power. I got to say I hope this shut this down. It is a little scary.


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Nova's site notes that the 1W laser can inscribe wood; definitely something one of you early adopters should test. Some other ideas aside from cutting a block of dry ice:

- See if it can boil water in a shot glass
- See if it can bore into and disable an inflated car tire
- Point it at a glow-in-the-dark object nearly long enough to burn it, then measure how long it glows

I'm also wondering about low-orbit applications; if, on a clear night, you pointed this laser at the International Space Station (~200 miles away, but only ~70 miles contain air), would they be able to see it? Is this the moment any common person can buy a single light source visible from space?


----------



## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



StarHalo said:


> I'm also wondering about low-orbit applications; if, on a clear night, you pointed this laser at the International Space Station (~200 miles away, but only ~70 miles contain air), would they be able to see it? Is this the moment any common person can buy a single light source visible from space?


I like math, so let's see if I still remember how to do it. Let's assume the atmosphere has no effect on the beam. With that assumption, we've got, essentially, a cone diverging at 1.5 milliradians and going for 200 miles. I get a circle with a radius of about 1600 feet up at the ISS height, or 1 watt per 1970110 square feet. That kind of spread seems to indicate that it would not be dramatically visible at that range. It's 0.000000508 waats per square foot.


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Wicked Lasers' website has been updated with new warnings and requirements for purchase. I wouldn't be surprised if they are worried about the fallout.


*Wicked Lasers Supplementary Class 4 Buyer Requirements*

Customers of Class 4 lasers are required to digitally sign a Laser Hazard Acknowledgment form stating they understand the proper handling, use and risks associated with such products
Customers of Class 4 lasers are required to provide government-issued photo ID for age verification purposes
Customers of Class 4 lasers are required to completely read and electronically acknowledge nine disclaimer passages
Customers of Class 4 lasers are required to be shipped at least one pair of certified laser safety goggles that meets minimum O.D. required for safe operation


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



AnAppleSnail said:


> That kind of spread seems to indicate that it would not be dramatically visible at that range. It's 0.000000508 waats per square foot.



Fair enough, but can you see a 0.000000508 watt per square foot light source against a completely black background, like a rural area on the night side of Earth?


----------



## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



StarHalo said:


> Fair enough, but can you see a 0.000000508 watt per square foot light source against a completely black background, like a rural area on the night side of Earth?



I dunno. That's a lower surface brightness than the dimmest a T1A Titan will go. I did the math mainly to be sure that nobody would be blinding our astronauts!

Edit: 0.000000508 watts per square foot works out to about that energy divided among 40,000 1.5mm-size sources due to the die size. So you'd be looking at, from the ISS, a 1.5mm object with a surface brightness of: 5.08*10^-7 divided by 40000 times 100 (lumens per watt) lumens. That's really tiny, something like a billionth of a lumen. Maybe I'm taking the math too far? It would be a very dim, striking blue point.


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



AnAppleSnail said:


> something like a billionth of a lumen. Maybe I'm taking the math too far? It would be a very dim, striking blue point.



Hm, that's very dim, but if it were all in a tiny point, I'd say that's a "just maybe".

It just fascinates me to think that last month, the idea of someone owning a light source visible from space would be ridiculous, and this month you can do it for ~$200..


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



StarHalo said:


> Hm, that's very dim, but if it were all in a tiny point, I'd say that's a "just maybe".


 
(I can't believe I beat you to this)

So you're telling me there's a chance... *YEAH!*


----------



## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



StarHalo said:


> Hm, that's very dim, but if it were all in a tiny point, I'd say that's a "just maybe".


Oh, I just remembered the other math to do. The human eye has trouble resolving tiny details - anything smaller than a certain angle will appear to be a dot. At 200 miles, a 1.5mm object is .000000233 degrees of arc. 20/20 vision can resolve detail of 1 arc-minute, and anything smaller will appear to be a perfect point. The laser's aperture at 200 miles would be about 150000 times smaller than the ability of human vision to resolve distinct objects. So given that the laser's brightness would not be much greater than a black background, and its tiny apparent size, I doubt that it would be particularly visible at 200 miles. Maybe on a perfectly clear pitch-dark night with no other light sources around and our spaceman has completely night-adapted vision.

Note: I could be doing the maths wrong.


----------



## matt304

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I have an 885mW laser I made from a 12X blu-ray drive.

It burns you, but if you sweep it across your skin at a little more than an inch per second, you won't really feel it much more than a warmth. It's when you stop moving that it quickly burns. If you set it on a table, it will burn your hand from 25 feet away if you stop in the beam.

These 445nm Casio diodes can be driven at much more than a watt. So far they have been tested at 1.5W and more. I have one showing up tomorrow.


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



was.lost.but.now.found said:


> So you're telling me there's a chance... *YEAH!*



lol, good one



AnAppleSnail said:


> Maybe on a perfectly clear pitch-dark night with no other light sources around and our spaceman has completely night-adapted vision.



I still think that's promising; I wonder if a 1W green would fare better? Did we resolve if the same wattage of different wavelengths make a difference?



matt304 said:


> These 445nm Casio diodes can be driven at much more than a watt. So far they have been tested at 1.5W and more. I have one showing up tomorrow.



Feel free to post burn test results/pics/videos, we're ready to see what it can do..


----------



## Advil

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

if this is really 1 watt and not an other underpowered piece of crap from wicked lasers i'm definitely getting one.


Looks like NOVA lasers is making one too!! their product is usually much better and OVERpowered!

http://www.novalasers.com/NOVAstore/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=2

other forums are reporting a 200 dollar pricetag as well!

ugly though


----------



## ejot

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

It doesn't look like that one is being offered any more? :shrug:


----------



## Advil

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

it's still being developed i think? not sure


----------



## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



StarHalo said:


> I still think that's promising; I wonder if a 1W green would fare better? Did we resolve if the same wattage of different wavelengths make a difference?


I don't know the optics to calculate wavelength comparisons. There just isnt' enough power going to the right places. It just needs better collimation. Our spaceman is really only going to see something like a billionth of a lumen's worth of light. One way to look at is is to divide the apparent brightness of the laser among the area the laser will occupy at 200 miles - the laser will be spread across 197000 square feet, and the diode was originally 7.607756x10^-5 square feet.

So you're cutting the laser intensity to one 38.6 billionth of its intensity, and it's probably at a size that your eyes just can't see unless it's rather brighter than the background. I suppose we'll hear from NASA soon enough, right?


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



AnAppleSnail said:


> I suppose we'll hear from NASA soon enough, right?



That'd be a pain to actually try to carry out the experiment - you'd need to mount the laser to one of those computerized telescopes that follows objects in the sky (and I don't know if they can follow low-orbit objects), and figure out some way to aim it..



ejot said:


> It doesn't look like that one is being offered any more? :shrug:



Yup, it's not on the site anymore, Google search just directs you to the dead page. I wonder what that's about..


----------



## mzil

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I call complete BS.

Burn flesh? No.
Burn bugs? No.
Burn or pop a car tire? No.
Boil a shot glass of water? No.
Pop a balloon? Black only, motionless, projecting the beam at exactly the same spot for a minute, _maybe_.

Cause blindness? Can't any $5 department store laser do that, or for that matter a cheap flashlight held to the eye? Isn't it just a function of how _long_ it takes?


----------



## TorchBoy

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I found myself wondering how powerful the lasers are that are used for lunar ranging. Answer: 2.3 W. They are *very* careful with the laser: http://www.physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/basics.html



> Is it safe?
> 
> It's all fun and games until someone shoots an eye out! Working with a powerful laser demands some attention to safety. We follow strict safety guidelines when working around the laser, wearing *protective glasses that only admit one ten-millionth of any laser light hitting them to pass through*. But once we have expanded the beam to fill the 3.5 meter telescope aperture, it is far less dangerous—almost eye-safe, in fact (far too weak to cause damage to anything but eyes or sensitive detectors). Nonetheless, we are diligent about not hitting aircraft, which, more than creating an eye-hazard would potentially startle pilots. Some have reacted in horror when we tell them that we are shooting a laser at the moon. "Why would you want to destroy the moon?" Rest assured that 2.3 watts of laser power spread over a 2 kilometer patch on the moon is nothing compared to the sun's 1380 watts per square meter. Not even enough to tickle.


So 2.5 W spread over the area of a 3.5 m telescope is "almost eye-safe".

Hm...


AnAppleSnail said:


> Let's assume the atmosphere has no effect on the beam.


A rough figure for sunlight at Earth's surface is 1 kW/m^2, so the atmosphere attenuates light by a factor of ~0.72. You could include that in your calculations, AAS.


----------



## andyw513

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Andy want. Andy want bad.


----------



## ejot

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



TorchBoy said:


> A rough figure for sunlight at Earth's surface is 1 kW/m^2, so the atmosphere attenuates light by a factor of ~0.72. You could include that in your calculations, AAS.



It's good to put a number on this but careful, atmospheric attenuation is very frequency dependent and relates closely to the absorption spectra of atmospheric gases. The averaged 0.72 for sunlight (many frequencies) is not necessarily true for monochromatic light @ the SpyderIII's ~67THz. Could be similar or a lot differetn...

Certainly someone could dig up this figure , I couldn't find it right away. :drunk:


----------



## Raccoon

*News Flash (for Newbies)*

*Power over Distance - a primer on "burning things at miles away".*

Now read this.

You *cannot* burn objects at miles away, or even hundreds of meters away, with *any* hand-held laser module; including any laser pointer from Wicked Lasers.

Here's why.

Specifications:

Beam Diameter: 1.5mm @ aperture
Beam Divergence: <1.5mRad

These are pretty typical values for any hand held laser module or pointer. Some may claim as low as 1.2 or 0.9 mRad, but this is typically a lie.

mRad? you ask.

Your beam starts off as 1.5 millimeters "thick" (diameter) when it exits the business end. However, as soon as you start walking even a short distance away from the laser, your target will notice that the beam gets much much wider and subsequently much less powerful. If you're the one holding the laser, you really can't tell the beam (dot) is growing in size.

After each meter, your beam at 1.5 mRad will expand another 1.5 mm in diameter. So after 1 meter distance, your beam is now 3mm thick... after 2 meters, 4.5mm thick... after 100 meters, 151.5mm thick (that is 1/2 foot)... after 200 meters it will become a full 12 inches. Airplanes fly at a cruising altitude of 30,000 ft, or about 9000 meters. By the time your beam reaches an airplane, it is 44 feet or 13.5 meters in diameter.

Naturally, the strength of the beam is much weaker when it's spread out over such a great area.

After 1 meter beam density is only 1/2 as powerful. after 2 meters the beam density is 1/3 as powerful... after 99 meters it's 1/100th as powerful... after 9000 meters, it's 1/9001th as powerful.

1 Watt of energy over 1.5 mm might burn the skin at a close distance, but after 100 meters that same 1.5 mm area is only as strong as a 10 mW laser. After 1000 meters, it's barely 1 mW, and after 9000 it's about 1/10th as powerful as a dollar store laser.

The only thing you're going to burn from 100 meters away is your popularity.

BTW. compared to the visibility of a 532nm green laser for a Dark Adapt eye, a 445nm blue laser is almost exactly 1/3 apparent brightness.

*People are asking if this 1W blue laser will be good for pointing at stars. It is about as bright as a 333 mW green laser.*


----------



## Shiftlock

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

The specs on Wicked Lasers for this laser says:

Output Power: <1W

That reads, "Output power: less than one watt." That's a useless spec. Every portable laser currently made is less than 1W. Considering Wicked Lasers has a history of exaggerating the output power of their products, I'm very interested to see exactly what one of these 445nm lasers measures on an accurate power meter.

If these 445nm diodes can currently be sourced for ~$33 per by cannibalizing a projector, then I suspect they will be available direct from China for less than half that price before the end of the year, and complete "1W" 445nm lasers will be on the market for under $50. At that point, everybody who wants one will have one (or five). This could mean bad things for laser hobbyists, if the power output is anywhere near what people are claiming. Time will tell.


----------



## Shiftlock

*Re: News Flash (for Newbies)*



Raccoon said:


> *People are asking if this 1W blue laser will be good for pointing at stars. It is about as bright as a 333 mW green laser.*



So then, the answer is "yes."


----------



## GreyShark

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



was.lost.but.now.found said:


> Can you kindly send me a link to where I could right now purchase a live grenade without a special permit?


 
That was my point, the weapons you mentioned aren't illegal in most US states, they're just usually subject to an additional tax stamp. Switchblades aren't in my state. I can legally own a switchblade without any special tax or permit as long as I avoid the ridiculous interstate commerce restrictions. That makes sense because there's nothing about a switchblade that makes it any more dangerous than any other knife and they are ponderously slow compared to any fixed blade knife and a few folding knife designs.



> An arc welder cannot blind someone from 200m away.


 
Sure, and the laser can't burn through steel like a hot knife through butter. We may as well be scared of 5 gallon buckets. Do you have any idea how many children drown in buckets each year? 200m? Ha! Buckets are _everywhere_ and anyone can buy them, even in huge quantities, with no government oversight at all. No permits required for filling them with water either.



> Can you state the danger of this "wild hype"? Where is the danger? What right do you risk loosing? Again, I'll restate my belief that no one has a legitimate use for a laser of this power without also being able to apply for a special needs permit.



These hyped up articles are playing to fears of this product being misused. If they would have left it alone it would have been a much smaller group of mostly enthusiasts who were even aware the product exists. Now they're giving it free global advertising and emphasizing its potential to be misused. That is just an example of poor judgment on the journalists' part if they were really concerned about the public safety angle but what's worse is the hype is wildly inaccurate and they attribute things to the laser that it just can't do. Of coursing getting the facts all wrong is nothing new and it's bad enough that at this point you can't honestly consider the mainstream media to be a credible source of information.

The other thing you said, about what right we risk losing, well that shows me you have a misunderstanding of how freedom works in the US. Our heritage of freedom flows from, among other things, our Constitution that acts as a white list on government powers. By default its our birthright as Americans to do what we please as long as it doesn't harm others unless for some exceptional reason legal restrictions have been put in place through specific due process. Yes, we do have a right to own powerful lasers and it would fall under not only this general principle but also the Tenth Amendment which reads,



> The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.



The federal government hasn't been given any legitimate special powers to control access to lasers and wisely so. An argument could be made that a given state or community could examine the issue and choose to restrict access to lasers. A total ban would go right out the window as soon as we're talking about a weapons grade laser which would be protected under the Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights. The military and law enforcement community have shown interest in lasers as weapons which according to supreme court case law strengthens the claim of lasers as protected arms and if this particular laser is actually as capable of blinding as the hype suggests than it would seem that it could indeed fall into the category of arms. Not exactly my top pick in personal armament but the more powerful and portable the laser gets the more likely possession is a protected right under our highest law.

It is your right under the First Amendment to loudly and publicly object to the availability of these lasers. While I disagree with your position I do believe it is important for you to exercise your right if for no other reason than all angles on any subject should be considered if we're going to have our society operate on any principle resembling reason. It's even your right to pursue a change in the law to prohibit the laser but it will have to be done in good faith through due process to be legitimate as the United States of America is a Republic and therefore our law is not subject to mob rule. That's also a good thing as it protects the little guys from the whims of the big guys.

Personally I don't think things should have come to the point we need to discuss stuff like this. The laser is neat but not for everybody, just like my lathe which could easily take your arm off if you made just one mistake. Or a five gallon bucket. The debate itself was inevitable though. Firearms, which have been well established as a legally protected class of weapon here in the US, are at heart an ancient technology dating back about 7 centuries. Some would and could argue much older. It was inevitable that just as guns eventually replaced the bow and arrow that directed energy weapons or other exotic technologies would eventually replace the firearm. That replacement is a good thing because eventually it will give rise to the proverbial phaser set on stun which I believe most of us would prefer to use for self defense once they are available, affordable and reliable. I don't know that this product will spur the debate on energy weapons in any significant way but it is a harbinger of things to come.


----------



## Isak Hawk

*Re: News Flash (for Newbies)*



Raccoon said:


> * after 100 meters, 151.5mm thick (that is 1.5 meters)... after 200 meters it will become 3 full meters around.*



No, 151.5mm is 15.15 centimeters. That is probably still enough power to cause eye damage, but it won't set fire to anything. Also, at 9000 meters the beam will be 13.5 meters wide and no longer able to damage eyes (although it could still startle pilots).

Edit: maybe it would be a good idea to change that part of your post, in case someone reads it and think they can start pointing their 1W laser at aircraft without startling the pilots


----------



## Raccoon

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Indeed. Someone else just pointed out the decimal error to me, so I corrected that statement.

My biggest point of the airplane rant is how these accounts of pilots being "struck in the eye by a laser beam" are inconsistent, and how several are fascinatingly science-fiction in nature.

"green dot in the cockpit that almost hit me in the eye"
"pilot hit in the left eye, co-pilot had to take over"
"seeing an eye doctor"

Seriously now. A 44 foot diameter "beam" isn't going to hit someone in the left eye, or miss the co-pilot.

Cockpits are not dark. Pilots cannot see outside below the horizon. Planes practically fly themselves (as if pilots are searching for dangerous obstacles to avoid?).

There have been some 300 documented incidences claims the FAA. And I'm not buying it.


----------



## Isak Hawk

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I think most of those incidents happened during landing/takeoff. During that time they are manually flying the airplane and I think they turn off the light in the cockpit to see the landing strip better (at night). 
Anyway, I just think pointing lasers at aircraft is a really bad idea (even if the danger should turn out to be blown way out of proportion).


----------



## Raccoon

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Considering that I've been using green lasers to point out stars since 2003, and have bought several for our campus astronomy club, I vehemently despise any exaggerated report that demonizes personal laser use.

Interestingly, nobody has ever bothered us, and I know at least a few students have nailed a plane now and then ("i think that's a satellite!").

It would really suck if false reports about sizzling eyeballs would cause judges to start convicting good natured back-yard astronomers with felonious acts of terrorism.

Seen the CSI episode from 2004/2005? The pilot's corneas were melted from a pointer! The public believes this poop!


----------



## TorchBoy

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

There are some posts in this thread that are a bit worrisome, including talk of pointing lasers at planes not being dangerous. Yes, we can quibble over the details about how intense the light is when a plane is however far away, but careless use of lasers can have permanent consequences - in the case of this blue laser, even from diffuse light reflected from objects with no specular reflection. Also, there's an ad on CPF that points out that aiming a laser at a plane is a felony.


----------



## Isak Hawk

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Raccoon said:


> Seen the CSI episode from 2004/2005? The pilot's corneas were melted from a pointer!



 
Where can I get these gigawatt pointers?


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: News Flash (for Newbies)*



Raccoon said:


> *People are asking if this 1W blue laser will be good for pointing at stars. It is about as bright as a 333 mW green laser.*



And Wicked's cheapest 300mW green unit is $1,300; to edge that out for only $200 could be one of the greatest bang-for-the-buck deals of all time..


----------



## Juggernaut

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*




> I think most of those incidents happened during landing/takeoff. During that time they are manually flying the airplane and I think they turn off the light in the cockpit to see the landing strip better (at night).
> Anyway, I just think pointing lasers at aircraft is a really bad idea (even if the danger should turn out to be blown way out of proportion).


 
Commercial airliners are not the only thing to worry about. Around were I live “it’s very rural, and there is a small airport near by”. Small planes are constantly flying around, none going much more then 2,000 feet up “I know I’ve been in them before”. At this height I could potentially strike them with some of my more high power flashlights, let alone lasers, I have to be very careful at night. Though to be fair, I don’t exactly think there is exactly a lot of laser collectors out here….


----------



## Juggernaut

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



was.lost.but.now.found said:


> Wicked Lasers' website has been updated with new warnings and requirements for purchase. I wouldn't be surprised if they are worried about the fallout.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Wicked Lasers Supplementary Class 4 Buyer Requirements*
> 
> Customers of Class 4 lasers are required to digitally sign a Laser Hazard Acknowledgment form stating they understand the proper handling, use and risks associated with such products
> Customers of Class 4 lasers are required to provide government-issued photo ID for age verification purposes
> Customers of Class 4 lasers are required to completely read and electronically acknowledge nine disclaimer passages
> Customers of Class 4 lasers are required to be shipped at least one pair of certified laser safety goggles that meets minimum O.D. required for safe operation


 
What kind of ID card do they want? I was thinking about giving them my FID, I figure they would understand someone who can handle a firearm can hopefully handle a Laser.


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

CNET columnist Chris Matyszczyk published a column today, damning this laser and the company that makes it: Working 'lightsaber' can set fire to your skin'.


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*




GreyShark said:


> That was my point, the weapons you mentioned aren't illegal in most US states, they're just usually subject to an additional tax stamp.


That's about as accurate as saying any Joe Blow off the street can shoot fireworks in excess of 500G simply by paying extra taxes. If you actually do your research, you'd see that both examples require special permission from the ATF. This is pretty much what I said about needing permits. Permits nor licenses are automatically awarded. You apply for them and you may or may not get it. After an individual goes to the effort to be granted one, they're not likely to do something stupid to get it revoked, which cannot be said about the public at large.



GreyShark said:


> Switchblades aren't in my state. I can legally own a switchblade without any special tax or permit as long as I avoid the ridiculous interstate commerce restrictions. That makes sense because there's nothing about a switchblade that makes it any more dangerous than any other knife and they are ponderously slow compared to any fixed blade knife and a few folding knife designs.


While I may have used a poor example as you are somewhat correct and I was mistaken that there are no complete bans on then, they are still heavily regulated as a whole with outright bans in many states. If they are such a poor choice for a weapon, than why were they historically a popular choice for street criminals?



GreyShark said:


> Sure, and the laser can't burn through steel like a hot knife through butter. We may as well be scared of 5 gallon buckets. Do you have any idea how many children drown in buckets each year? 200m? Ha! Buckets are _everywhere_ and anyone can buy them, even in huge quantities, with no government oversight at all. No permits required for filling them with water either.


Wat does this have anything to do with my statement, which is confirmed directly from Wicked Lasers' technical specification on this device, that the laser can cause eye damage from 200 meters away?



GreyShark said:


> These hyped up articles are playing to fears of this product being misused. If they would have left it alone it would have been a much smaller group of mostly enthusiasts who were even aware the product exists.


If you read the news you can easily find daily occurrences of people misusing lasers and directing them at airplanes and helicopters.



GreyShark said:


> That is just an example of poor judgment on the journalists' part if they were really concerned about the public safety angle but what's worse is the hype is wildly inaccurate and they attribute things to the laser that it just can't do.


Very interesting you say that since much of what the journalists in question were quoting was from this very thread.



GreyShark said:


> The other thing you said, about what right we risk losing, well that shows me you have a misunderstanding of how freedom works in the US. Our heritage of freedom flows from, among other things, our Constitution that acts as a white list on government powers. By default its our birthright as Americans to do what we please as long as it doesn't harm others unless for some exceptional reason legal restrictions have been put in place through specific due process. Yes, we do have a right to own powerful lasers and it would fall under not only this general principle but also the Tenth Amendment which reads,


No disrespect, but I have actually studied Constitutional law as well as Supreme Court case law and it is you who are mistaken about "how freedom works in the US". Our "rights" are those and only those which are enumerated in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and other Amendments. Your quote of the 10th Amendment, without getting into a history lesson, comes from two concepts: establishing the limited power of the federal government, and second, specifying in no uncertain terms that for something to be criminal it must be spelled out (this was obviosuly a problem with British rule which they were trying to correct). There is nothing which say states cannot nor should not create new laws when applicable to meet the evolving needs of society.



GreyShark said:


> The federal government hasn't been given any legitimate special powers to control access to lasers and wisely so.


When did I ever say lasers should be controlled by the Federal Government?



GreyShark said:


> An argument could be made that a given state or community could examine the issue and choose to restrict access to lasers. A total ban would go right out the window as soon as we're talking about a weapons grade laser which would be protected under the Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights.


Ahh, so by that rationale weapons grade plutonium is covered under Second Amendment protection (I think not).



GreyShark said:


> The military and law enforcement community have shown interest in lasers as weapons which according to supreme court case law strengthens the claim of lasers as protected arms and if this particular laser is actually as capable of blinding as the hype suggests than it would seem that it could indeed fall into the category of arms. Not exactly my top pick in personal armament but the more powerful and portable the laser gets the more likely possession is a protected right under our highest law.


Sorry you are just flat out wrong. You can read literally dozens of US Supreme Court cases (which I actually have done) which clearly limit the power of the Second Amendment to personal firearms, here's one example:
'We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of "dangerous and unusual weapons." '

Nowhere will you find the discussion of lasers because they quite simply are not protected by the 2nd Amendment. Arms = Firearms.



GreyShark said:


> It is your right under the First Amendment to loudly and publicly object to the availability of these lasers. While I disagree with your position I do believe it is important for you to exercise your right if for no other reason than all angles on any subject should be considered if we're going to have our society operate on any principle resembling reason. It's even your right to pursue a change in the law to prohibit the laser but it will have to be done in good faith through due process to be legitimate as the United States of America is a Republic and therefore our law is not subject to mob rule. That's also a good thing as it protects the little guys from the whims of the big guys.


I completely agree with you; never did I assert that I thought these were illegal at the current time. Quite to the contrary, my concern is rooted in the fact that they are legal.


----------



## gorn

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



was.lost.but.now.found said:


> While I may have used a poor example as you are somewhat correct and I was mistaken that there are no complete bans on then, they are still heavily regulated as a whole with outright bans in many states. If they are such a poor choice for a weapon, than why were they historically a popular choice for street criminals?



Switchblades have never been a popular choice for street criminals. Although some have used them. The anti switchblade laws came into effect as a result of idiot elected officials watching West Side Story and assuming that they were a common choice. Much like the freak out over martial arts weapons in the 70's when the Kung Fu movies were popular. I have never heard of a crime being committed by a shuriken wielding punk.


----------



## RyanA

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Is there a course that English majors take that teaches them why it's O.K. to cite out of context if its for the sake of sensationalism? It seems that most articles that I read now are just a jumbled pile of quotes from disparate sources arranged in such a way to insinuate some kind of sensational idea. Every where else this kind of thing is considered a non sequitur, but in journalism, it's brilliant!

"Sum guy on teh interenetz sez dis will shoot down teh space station" "Therefore it must be true!" "The world must know!"


----------



## matt304

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



RyanA said:


> Is there a course that English majors take that teaches them why it's O.K. to cite out of context if its for the sake of sensationalism? It seems that most articles that I read now are just a jumbled pile of quotes from disparate sources arranged in such a way to insinuate some kind of sensational idea. Every where else this kind of thing is considered a non sequitur, but in journalism, it's brilliant!
> 
> "Sum guy on teh interenetz sez dis will shoot down teh space station" "Therefore it must be true!" "The world must know!"



Journalism is on a slippery slope headed for disaster. They will all soon be replaced by web-bots which can scan Google for quotes at much faster rates.


----------



## GreyShark

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



was.lost.but.now.found said:


> That's about as accurate as saying any Joe Blow off the street can shoot fireworks in excess of 500G simply by paying extra taxes. If you actually do your research, you'd see that both examples require special permission from the ATF. This is pretty much what I said about needing permits. Permits nor licenses are automatically awarded. You apply for them and you may or may not get it. After an individual goes to the effort to be granted one, they're not likely to do something stupid to get it revoked, which cannot be said about the public at large.



Fireworks are not arms. Grenades, bombs, missiles and other such weapons are classified as destructive devices under NFA. State and perhaps even local rules in some jurisdictions may change the picture somewhat but the only significant difference between buying a conventional firearm through an FFL and buying an NFA weapon is the $200 tax stamp. Yes, a transfer in the NFA registry has to be recorded but that isn't a significant barrier to lawful purchase as compared to common firearms. Buying a non-NFA firearm through an FFL still requires a background check and in many areas there is a waiting period. The law was designed to harass and tax, not ban. Congress did not even feel it had the power to ban anything at the time. Even the Prohibition required an amendment to the Constitution.

Your last sentence there is exactly why these laws are ineffective at preventing crime. Criminals don't buy NFA weapons. Criminals get their machineguns from the same people who smuggle in billions of dollars of illegal drugs, they make their own, steal them from military arsenals or similar. Criminals still have inexpensive access to machineguns, it's law abiding shooters who pay tens of thousands of dollars and a $200 tax stamp for a legal example. Similarly there have been laws against murder since the dawn of history yet this outright ban has never been successful in stopping murders. Criminals don't obey the law by definition.



> While I may have used a poor example as you are somewhat correct and I was mistaken that there are no complete bans on then, they are still heavily regulated as a whole with outright bans in many states. If they are such a poor choice for a weapon, than why were they historically a popular choice for street criminals?



The only restrictions that affect switchblades "as a whole" are on the federal level and they deal with who can make, sell, transport and buy from who... through a wacky interpretation of the so-called commerce clause as so many other federal level laws attempt to use to find validity.

Gorn got it right, they never were an especially popular weapon for street criminals. Just like the dreaded "assault weapons" the criminals who used them were far and away most commonly fictional characters on tv or in movies. We all heard the dire predictions of "blood in the streets!" when the AWB sunset more than half a decade ago and it simply never happened. Shall-issue concealed carry laws prompted similar cries of "blood in the streets" almost two decades prior, yet it never happened. Similarly my state's legislators recently clarified the legality of making and owning switchblades after a period of time when judges were trying to "legislate from the bench" by citing a law pertaining to so-called "ballistic knives." Despite the clarified legality of switchblades once again there has been no "blood in the streets!" I sincerely doubt we will now be faced with "melted retinas in the streets!"

Historically speaking the switchblade style of lockwork was popular among common pocket knives, though not as common as slipjoint folders. There are examples of switchblades that are a couple hundred years old. As far as their suitability as weapons, criminal or otherwise, there is nothing especially deadly about them. The only difference between a switchblade and any other pocketknife is that the switchblade opens when you push a button or lever. While a neat gimmick there are currently many other gimmicks that can open a blade one handed as fast or faster that don't even rely on a spring to drive the blade. The balisong can do that as well and most balisongs have no springs at all. Slightly less well known is just about any pocketknife regardless of lockwork can be opened one handed as fast or faster than a switchblade via the inertia method.



> Wat does this have anything to do with my statement, which is confirmed directly from Wicked Lasers' technical specification on this device, that the laser can cause eye damage from 200 meters away?



It seems you're trying to sell the idea that the laser is especially dangerous. A great multitude of mundane objects do far more real damage. Perhaps in your ideal world everybody would live in a padded rubber room and be fed applesauce through a crack in the door but it just doesn't make sense to freak out about lasers when there are so many other much more dangerous items that go completely unregulated.




> If you read the news you can easily find daily occurrences of people misusing lasers and directing them at airplanes and helicopters.



I hear about it from time to time. I hear about vehicular manslaughter a lot more often. Are pilots more valuable than pedestrians?



> Very interesting you say that since much of what the journalists in question were quoting was from this very thread.



As others have pointed out they tend to take things way out of context.



> No disrespect, but I have actually studied Constitutional law as well as Supreme Court case law and it is you who are mistaken about "how freedom works in the US". Our "rights" are those and only those which are enumerated in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and other Amendments. Your quote of the 10th Amendment, without getting into a history lesson, comes from two concepts: establishing the limited power of the federal government, and second, specifying in no uncertain terms that for something to be criminal it must be spelled out (this was obviosuly a problem with British rule which they were trying to correct). There is nothing which say states cannot nor should not create new laws when applicable to meet the evolving needs of society.



No disrespect intended either, I bear you no ill will and I don't think badly of you, but if that's the impression you got you had a poor teacher. That wouldn't be surprising though since many universities these days teach an agenda rather than the facts. We both agree that the Constitution places limitations on government power, that is an explicitly stated purpose within the Constitution itself. The rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights are super-extra-especially protected but they aren't the only 10 rights Americans have. The Ninth Amendment explicitly states that.



> The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.



You may have merely forgotten this, it may have slipped the mind of your teacher, but it seems to me that a constitutional scholar should at the very least be familiar with the Bill of Rights. I believe all Americans ought to be able to recite the Bill of Rights from memory but that's another story.




> Ahh, so by that rationale weapons grade plutonium is covered under Second Amendment protection (I think not).



A gun owner using the nuclear strawman??? :thinking:




> Sorry you are just flat out wrong. You can read literally dozens of US Supreme Court cases (which I actually have done) which clearly limit the power of the Second Amendment to personal firearms, here's one example:
> 'We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of "dangerous and unusual weapons." '


 
Define "dangerous and unusual." You also left out something very important, the preceding sentence.



> Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those "in common use at the time."



This is interesting because in relation to lasers we will eventually be entering an era when directed energy weapons are "in common use at the time." Miller does seem to acknowledge that technology marches on as the chief objection in that case was that the weapon in question had a short barrel, not that it fired metallic cartridge ammunition. Miller is simultaneously ridiculous because there is no "common use" clause in the Second Amendment.



> Nowhere will you find the discussion of lasers because they quite simply are not protected by the 2nd Amendment. Arms = Firearms.



Oh boy. _I defy you_ to demonstrate that only firearms are arms. That goes against the entire etymology of the word "arms."


----------



## Shiftlock

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



GreyShark said:


> Oh boy. _I defy you_ to demonstrate that only firearms are arms. That goes against the entire etymology of the word "arms."



arm
–noun
1. Usually, arms. weapons, esp. firearms. 

It's usually used when referring to firearms, but not exclusively so, and exactly what the framers meant when they used the term "arms" is a topic that has been debated for ages, and probably always will be. The same goes for the terms "people,” and “militia” as they're applied in the 2nd amendment. There's no easy answer. It's possible that they left these terms purposely vague in order so that they may be applied in ways they knew they couldn't yet imagine.


----------



## Per-Sev

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Its only a hot beam of light that will burn you if you get it to close to your skin now you are comparing it to guns and switchblades whats next RPG's.


----------



## Stillphoto

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Ooh, here's one that does long distance damage...Plenty of good articles on it, chose this to show the scale. ABL


----------



## GreyShark

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Shiftlock said:


> arm
> –noun
> 1. Usually, arms. weapons, esp. firearms.
> 
> It's usually used when referring to firearms, but not exclusively so, and exactly what the framers meant when they used the term "arms" is a topic that has been debated for ages, and probably always will be. The same goes for the terms "people,” and “militia” as they're applied in the 2nd amendment. There's no easy answer. It's possible that they left these terms purposely vague in order so that they may be applied in ways they knew they couldn't yet imagine.



Among other non-firearm weapons pole_arms_ were still in use at the close of the 18th century and were in fact used by American forces during the revolution. I really don't see how anyone could argue that "arms" applies only to firearms.

"Militia" isn't really so vaguely defined. Like many others, my state's constitution explicitly defines who and what the militia are and it isn't the National Guard or any other force under federal control. In fact since the National Guard was federalized and is frequently deployed overseas nowadays quite a few states have created state defense forces that are not under federal control. There are people who wish that weren't so because they'd like to advance the idea that the Second Amendment does not grant an individual right but that matter has been laid to rest by the Supreme Court of the United States. The debate over the definition of "militia" is old news. Nowadays we're hashing out what "infringed' means. 



Per-Sev said:


> Its only a hot beam of light that will burn you if you get it to close to your skin now you are comparing it to guns and switchblades whats next RPG's.





It does sound ridiculous if you put it that way. I think we all recognize this laser can be potentially dangerous but isn't really anywhere near the same league as an RPG or even a switchblade. The point we're discussing, at least my point, is whether or not the right to possess a laser powerful enough to be dangerous could be protected under existing law, specifically the Second Amendment.

Another aspect of the discussion is whether or not public availability will prove to be a serious public safety issue. My point of view is people can't be hurt by what doesn't exist. Lasers do and will continue to exist so the potential is there for someone to be injured. Taken on the whole though I don't see how a laser ban would be any more effective than a murder or assault ban, things we already have. Even though the individual cases of injuries are/will be regrettable I don't believe there is a large enough or valid enough threat to warrant an extreme response to lasers. Five gallon buckets and swimming pools have done far more real damage than lasers ever have and I suspect that will remain the case even with the advent of this one watt blue laser. As is the case for buckets and swimming pools the dangers are outweighed by the utilitarian and recreational uses of lasers. At some point you just have to trust that everybody isn't out to get you.


----------



## TorchBoy

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Per-Sev said:


> whats next RPG's.


Hey, you leave my role playing games alone! 

And lay off the guns, huh guys? If you have a _burning_ need to discuss second amendments take it to the Underground.


----------



## GreyShark

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

We're discussing the legal status of lasers in the US.


----------



## Juggernaut

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



ejot said:


> Showed one of my colleagues this morning and he immediately ordered two. :devil:
> 
> I *think* I just ordered one but no email confirmation. Tried calling them to check on the order and, after 45min on hold, finally got to talk to someone who was able to tell me....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wait for it ....
> 
> 
> " We're swamped. Our system is down. Can't tell you anything. Sorry. "


 
Did this ever get resolved? I just ordered one too, and I didn’t get a E-mail confirmation eitheroo:? They also didn’t ask me for that digital signature, or age ID thing either, but everything else worked. Did you have to re-order:scowl:? Or what? 

[Oh, wait, the E-mail just came through, however it says it’s just a confirmation, and that Wicked Lasers has not officially accepted my order yet? Do I have to wait for another one of those E-mails too?]


----------



## ejot

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I received both order confirmation and payment confirmation emails later that night. They came at the same time. How did you pay?

Starting to think: Best case, it's a long time before anyone sees these. Worst case......... :shrug:


----------



## 65535

*Re: News Flash (for Newbies)*



Raccoon said:


> *Power over Distance - a primer on "burning things at miles away".*
> 
> Now read this.
> 
> You *cannot* burn objects at miles away, or even hundreds of meters away, with *any* hand-held laser module; including any laser pointer from Wicked Lasers.
> 
> Here's why.
> 
> Specifications:
> 
> Beam Diameter: 1.5mm @ aperture
> Beam Divergence: <1.5mRad
> 
> These are pretty typical values for any hand held laser module or pointer. Some may claim as low as 1.2 or 0.9 mRad, but this is typically a lie.
> 
> mRad? you ask.
> 
> Your beam starts off as 1.5 millimeters "thick" (diameter) when it exits the business end. However, as soon as you start walking even a short distance away from the laser, your target will notice that the beam gets much much wider and subsequently much less powerful. If you're the one holding the laser, you really can't tell the beam (dot) is growing in size.
> 
> After each meter, your beam at 1.5 mRad will expand another 1.5 mm in diameter. So after 1 meter distance, your beam is now 3mm thick... after 2 meters, 4.5mm thick... after 100 meters, 151.5mm thick (that is 1/2 foot)... after 200 meters it will become a full 12 inches. Airplanes fly at a cruising altitude of 30,000 ft, or about 9000 meters. By the time your beam reaches an airplane, it is 44 feet or 13.5 meters in diameter.
> 
> Naturally, the strength of the beam is much weaker when it's spread out over such a great area.
> 
> After 1 meter beam density is only 1/2 as powerful. after 2 meters the beam density is 1/3 as powerful... after 99 meters it's 1/100th as powerful... after 9000 meters, it's 1/9001th as powerful.
> 
> 1 Watt of energy over 1.5 mm might burn the skin at a close distance, but after 100 meters that same 1.5 mm area is only as strong as a 10 mW laser. After 1000 meters, it's barely 1 mW, and after 9000 it's about 1/10th as powerful as a dollar store laser.
> 
> The only thing you're going to burn from 100 meters away is your popularity.
> 
> BTW. compared to the visibility of a 532nm green laser for a Dark Adapt eye, a 445nm blue laser is almost exactly 1/3 apparent brightness.
> 
> *People are asking if this 1W blue laser will be good for pointing at stars. It is about as bright as a 333 mW green laser.*



I believe those numbers may be a bit off, using your figure of .1515mØ at 100m is a beam divergence of .0859rad (85.94mRad).

By my calculations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam_divergence) at 100m the beam gains .0026mØ, so the beam should be .0041mØ or 4.1mm.

I feel that's correct, though I would like someone to double check my work. It seems unlikely that at 100m the beam would be 150mm.

My calculations are in error, I was using degrees and not radians, always check your calculators mode people.


----------



## Shiftlock

*Re: News Flash (for Newbies)*



65535 said:


> I believe those numbers may be a bit off, using your figure of .1515mØ at 100m is a beam divergence of .0859rad (85.94mRad).
> 
> By my calculations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam_divergence) at 100m the beam gains .0026mØ, so the beam should be .0041mØ or 4.1mm.
> 
> I feel that's correct, though I would like someone to double check my work. It seems unlikely that at 100m the beam would be 150mm.



Are you saying that the beam will be 4.1mm at 100m distance? No way. It seems A LOT more likely to me that it would be 150mm. This is easy enough to check with any laser. From the perspective of the person operating the laser, the beam looks like it's very tiny, but that's because you're 100m away. Have someone else operate the laser, and look at the beam size from that distance. I bet you'll find it's close to 150mm.


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: News Flash (for Newbies)*



Shiftlock said:


> It seems A LOT more likely to me that it would be 150mm.



So at the range of just over a football field, the spot is half a foot across? You sure?


----------



## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



65535 said:


> I believe those numbers may be a bit off, using your figure of .1515mØ at 100m is a beam divergence of .0859rad (85.94mRad).
> 
> By my calculations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam_divergence) at 100m the beam gains .0026mØ, so the beam should be .0041mØ or 4.1mm.
> 
> I feel that's correct, though I would like someone to double check my work. It seems unlikely that at 100m the beam would be 150mm.



They post this information: Beam diameters at distances.

"Obviously beam diameter is just the diameter of a laser beam, measured in millimeters. Beam divergence measures how much the laser beam expands per meter. For example, a laser with a beam divergence of 1.0mRad will have a beam that expands 1.0mm per meter."

Using the beam divergence from wikipedia, I get:


Laser Beam Divergence = 2 arctan ( (D(f) - D(i)) / 2 L)
D(i) = Diameter at aperture, 1.5mm.
D(f) = final diameter, x mm.
L = distance between initial and final, assume 50 cm.
Beam Divergence is given, assume 1.5 mRad

1.5 mRad = 2* arctan((Xmm-1.5mm)/2L)
1.5 mRad = 2*arctan((Xmm-1.5mm)/1m)
.0015 Radians = 2*arctan((X-.0015)/1)
According to Wolfram Alpha (My calculator's 180 miles away)
x=3/2000+tan(3/4000) = .00225m or 2.25 mm at 50cm
That's almost what they state, with "1 milliradian of divergence equals one millimeter per meter of expansion."

So at 100 meters, it would be 1.5 mm + 100m*(1.5 mRad * 1 mm per millirad*meter) = 1.5+100*1.5 mm = 151.5 mm. Your answer is wrong, and maybe you made the same mistake I did. Let's try:

200 miles in meters is 321868.8. The beam would be, assuming no atmospheric disturbances, 1.5mm + 321868.8*1.5 mm in diameter, or482804.7mm = 1584 feet. I forget what I calculated earlier for a diameter, I'll edit this once I go check.

Edit: I was pretty close with my answer, where I treated it as a diverging angle. I'm not sure where your math went wrong. I converted milliradiants to degrees, halved that angle and did the cosine (200 miles times cosine of the angle) to get the radius, and then that's the beam size.


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Hm, that seems pretty broad.. I wonder if Nova's model will be able to do their usual <1.0mm beam/<1.2mm mRad..


----------



## Shiftlock

*Re: News Flash (for Newbies)*



StarHalo said:


> So at the range of just over a football field, the spot is half a foot across? You sure?



Yes, that sounds about right, even though it doesn't look it from the perspective of the person holding the laser. Try it for yourself, then come back and tell us what you've found. That goes for anyone reading this. Pace off the distance, lock your laser on, walk back, and measure the dot. I think you'll be surprised. What you thought was a small dot, I think you'll find is actually many inches across. Similarly, when you shine your laser at the side of a building a mile away, what you think is a small dot is actually many feet across. I've seen this by looking at the dot through a telescope.


----------



## Raccoon

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



AnAppleSnail said:


> So at 100 meters, it would be 1.5 mm + 100m*(1.5 mRad * 1 mm per millirad*meter) = 1.5+100*1.5 mm = 151.5 mm. Your answer is wrong, and maybe you made the same mistake I did.



All the math is correct. The reason you're getting 151.5mm instead of 150.0mm is the original 1.5mm diameter of the beam leaving the aperture.
The expansion due to divergence is 150.0mm, and add the original diameter gives you 151.5mm. Simple "off by one" error.



StarHalo said:


> So at the range of just over a football field, the spot is half a foot across? You sure?



Few people think of lasers as anything but 1 dimensional rays of light, so the public believes they retain their strength even over several miles.
Which is all the more reason why we need to discredit pilot reports of "laser beams dancing around the cockpit".

Lets not blow up the moon, either. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8iKRTGNUts#t=2m25s (_big bang theory_ episode)


----------



## DM51

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Reading through the last couple of days' contributions, I was about to close this, following a series of posts that dragged the thread way off topic with spurious discussion of switchblades, firearms etc. 

However, with the last few posts it now seems to be about back on track. If it fails to remain there, it will be closed.


----------



## 65535

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

That's what I get for leaving my calculator in degrees. Though that does seem like a pretty poor divergence, very disappointing in terms of laser power, but in terms of having these things in the public hand, a very good "safety net" so to speak.

I now concur with the 151.5mm at 100m.

Pretty disappointing IMO, but much much much much safer.


----------



## Juggernaut

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

To be fair 1.5 mRad isn’t that big in fact from what I’ve seen most lasers are all about the same via what I’ve seen on Wicked lasers and Nova web sites. Think even the low powered 5mw Core is 1.2 mRad. From use I’ve never seen the beam open up like most people are thinking. Sure it happens but compared to things like flashlights beams, well laser’s beams are well….like lasers!


----------



## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Raccoon said:


> All the math is correct. The reason you're getting 151.5mm instead of 150.0mm is the original 1.5mm diameter of the beam leaving the aperture.
> The expansion due to divergence is 150.0mm, and add the original diameter gives you 151.5mm. Simple "off by one" error.


Ah, I see now that I misread your post - I thought you were saying that it would be 1.51 (or maybe 15.1?) mm across at that point. No harm meant, and I realize I should have used less harsh language.



65535 said:


> That's what I get for leaving my calculator in degrees. Though that does seem like a pretty poor divergence, very disappointing in terms of laser power, but in terms of having these things in the public hand, a very good "safety net" so to speak.
> 
> I now concur with the 151.5mm at 100m.
> 
> Pretty disappointing IMO, but much much much much safer.



Much cheaper, too! Making a small divergence (You'd need to have it an order of magnitude less to make a real difference) requires a larger lens.


----------



## 65535

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

A beam divergence of 1.5mdegrees would be pretty cool, by my calculations.


----------



## Isak Hawk

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



65535 said:


> That's what I get for leaving my calculator in degrees. Though that does seem like a pretty poor divergence, very disappointing in terms of laser power, but in terms of having these things in the public hand, a very good "safety net" so to speak.
> 
> I now concur with the 151.5mm at 100m.
> 
> Pretty disappointing IMO, but much much much much safer.



It's actually pretty good (especially for a diode only laser). So good in fact, that I've seen some people speculate as to whether or not it's true. I sure hope it's true, 1.5mrad is as good as many DPSS lasers.

Edit: Also, even though the beam may be 15cm after traveling 100m, it can still cause severe eye damage.


----------



## senecaripple

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

had to jump on this before the ban. too bad DX was prohibited from exporting lasers but not the other companies.


----------



## Juggernaut

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



ejot said:


> I received both order confirmation and payment confirmation emails later that night. They came at the same time. How did you pay?
> 
> Starting to think: Best case, it's a long time before anyone sees these. Worst case......... :shrug:


 
All I’ve gotten is a “RBS WorldPay CARD transaction Confirmation” E-mail saying they have received my payment “via Master Card“, and they did take the money, so does that mean a go? Also, through the check-out, they asked for my age and reason for purchase, but not that _ID digital signature thing_. Did you have to do that?


----------



## ejot

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

I ordered before they started asking your age, so not sure on that. It sounds like you're all set though. Give them a call if you're not sure, I was able to talk to someone this morning by pressing 2 for "Sales". She said it would ship by the end of the month.


----------



## aml

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

The power of this, relative to the price, scares me. I worry about laser non-experts (such as myself) picking them up because of the attractive price, and not treating them with the respect they require for safe use.....

and to qualify this, i'm usually not scared of dangerous items....Im one of the wackos mentioned in this thread that owns class II NFA weapons....short barreled rifles, silencers....etc....


All of that being said....ya...I ordered 2 of them. :twothumbs


----------



## DM51

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



aml said:


> I worry about laser non-experts ... picking them up because of the attractive price, and not treating them with the respect they require for safe use.


This thread has bothered me from the start, and aml mentions just one very valid concern.

Another problem concerns the posts that have talked of burning things, injuring people, causing blindness and so on - none of this helped by a thread title that includes the word "deathray".

Much of this may be hyperbole, and it is possible the item is not as dangerous as some people make it out to be. I am not an expert on lasers and have no way of knowing; however it seems to me highly unlikely that it is harmless. 

There is one further concern, and that is the question of legality. Where a legal limit of 5mW is imposed by most countries on the sale of lasers, what is the legal position concerning the sale and/or ownership of a laser that is 200 times more powerful than that limit? 

We will listen to the submissions of members concerning this point. Submissions are to be kept polite, civil and on topic, or the thread will be closed (which I suspect will happen in due course anyway).


----------



## R11GS

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

While not specifically a laser expert per se, I am a photonic generalist professionally and have from time to time over the past decades reasons to work with laser devices in my line of work for a very wide variety of applications. IMO these are very dangerous lasers in terms of their potential for retinal damage. I don't see them as particularly dangerous from a burning standpoint; more a curiosity. From a risk analysis perspective the retinal damage risk makes the burn risk (either causing skin burns or setting fires) almost insignificant. I'd suggest that anyone present while they are operated indoors should have appropriate eyewear and the operator should treat it with a great deal of respect. Outdoor use with people not wearing appropriate eyewear is safe as long as the operator approaches the use with all due caution; i.e. the laser should not strike any object in the near field (I'll consider working out what that means, but it's probably at least 100-200m) and it should not be able to strike an object where a person may be nearby. Just my .02...

As far as the legal issues with ownership, I think that is an almost purely political discussion and I tend to avoid those on most internet forums that don't focus on politics like this one. So I'll pass on those comments!


----------



## Shiftlock

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Yes, those are all valid concerns, but the same concerns were made years ago when relatively powerful DPSSFD 532nm lasers became affordable. I recall the same things being said about cheap green pointers that could easily be modified to ~100mW, and again when Chinese DPSS lasers of more than double that became available. It's true that we're now talking about even more power, but I'm not certain these 445nm lasers are as dangerous as they're being made out to sound. For example, I suspect the divergence of these lasers will be greater than DPSS green lasers (regardless of listed specs). Also, as I've already said, I'm skeptical of the 1W power claims. Wicked Lasers lists the output as <1W (i.e. under 1 watt), and WL has been known to inflate stats. Another thing (that I don't know much about) which may play a factor is the correlation between frequency and eye damage. I could be wrong about this, but I suspect that retinal damage may be less at 445nm than it is at 532nm.

What I'm saying is that, while there's no question that these powerful 445nm lasers can be very dangerous, especially in the wrong hands, so are lasers that have been available for years. People were worried years ago that high power 532nm lasers would cause all the same problems people are now worried about with these new 445nm lasers. I can even remember back in the 1980's when affordable Class 2 red pointers came on the market, people had the same concerns about eye damage. However, the horror stories of mass eye damage never materialized. I think (and hope) that's how this will play out. You can be certain that in a few years we'll see an even more powerful, inexpensive laser of some sort, and these 445nm units will seem tame in comparison. Again we'll hear all the same concerns. Seems to be a cycle that's repeating itself. Only time will tell.

Which makes me think... What kind of pocket-size laser will we be able to purchase for a few hundred dollars in 25 or 30 years? If technology keeps advancing the way it has, portable lasers may literally become a "deathray." At that point, these concerns will certainly be valid.


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Hear-say is that as long as the portable laser has a few specific safety features, it can be sold legally. It must have keys, a shut-off mechanism, and a shutter at the aperature. It also shouldn't be advertised as a pointer.

1W isn't an immense amount of power for anybody who has messed with high-power lasers. If all you've had, though are the <5mW pointers, this thing will blow you away.

I think this particular diode has several emitters, causing the bar-shaped output. this transverse multimode operation of the diode results in a high divergence along that axis. If you are collimating with just a simple aspheric (and I doubt WL has anamorphic prism pairs in their Arctic), your divergence will be pretty crappy. It'll still be plenty dangerous, just it would be about as bad as a 200mW green DPSS at distance. Of course, that's plenty to "dazzle" a person's night-vision.

I wish that, instead of making this one available for $230, WL made their other, older technology lasers cheaper. I'd much rather have a 400mW green for 200 than a 1000mW blue for 200. Erm, well, now that I think about it.....


----------



## SmurfTacular

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



DM51 said:


> This thread has bothered me from the start, and aml mentions just one very valid concern.
> 
> Another problem concerns the posts that have talked of burning things, injuring people, causing blindness and so on - none of this helped by a thread title that includes the word "deathray".
> 
> Much of this may be hyperbole, and it is possible the item is not as dangerous as some people make it out to be. I am not an expert on lasers and have no way of knowing; however it seems to me highly unlikely that it is harmless.
> 
> There is one further concern, and that is the question of legality. Where a legal limit of 5mW is imposed by most countries on the sale of lasers, what is the legal position concerning the sale and/or ownership of a laser that is 200 times more powerful than that limit?
> 
> We will listen to the submissions of members concerning this point. Submissions are to be kept polite, civil and on topic, or the thread will be closed (which I suspect will happen in due course anyway).




Isn't that the stupidest law in existence? I currently own a Viasho 500mW 532nm green laser, a Wicked Laser 180mW Evolution Pro, and soon a 1,000mW 445nm blue. None of them are illegal. But I do own a 50mW chinese laser that is completely illegal .

The FDA is trying the best the y can to prevent retards from pointing them at aircraft.

All IIIb mst legally have a key as a killswitch. Here is a statement relesased from the FDA



> The FDA standard 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11) requires a warning label on Class IIIa and IIIb products. Class IIIb products must also have a key switch and connector for remote interlock. The products are also required to have identifying and certifying labels and instructions for safe use.




There are some other laws that go along with IIIb lasers. Like only aproved manufactures are allowed to make IIIb lasers.


----------



## SmurfTacular

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



bshanahan14rulz said:


> If you are collimating with just a simple aspheric (and I doubt WL has anamorphic prism pairs in their Arctic), your divergence will be pretty crappy.




Wicked Lasers is know for three things: Really cool looking lasers, really expensive and over priced lasers, and they all have really tight beams. This particular 1w WL has a beam divergence of just 1.5mrad as stated in there specifications 



> Name:	Spyder III Pro Arctic Series
> Size:	228mm x 35.8mm
> Weight:	378g
> Wavelength:	445nm
> Laser Body:	6061-T6 Aircraft-Grade Aluminum
> Laser Finish:	Mil-Spec Type III hard anodized in black
> Transverse Mode:	TEM00
> Output Power:	<1W
> Beam Divergence:	<1.5mRad
> Beam Diameter:	1.5mm @ aperture
> NOHD*	211 meters
> Required Eyewear O.D.	4.4+
> Power Consumption:	3.7V @ 1A
> Power supply:	Rechargeable Lithium Ion Battery Type 18650 (batteries and charger included)
> Battery Lifetime:	120 mins
> Switch: Push Button Constant On / Off, Lock-Out Tail Cap
> Duty Cycle:	Continuous
> Expected lifetime:	>5,000 hours
> Warranty: 3 months


----------



## aml

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

My thoughts on the price point is to hurry up and saturate the potential market, and make big profits as quick as possible before some sort of regulation is put into effect.

From a business perspective, each laser projector they purchase and disassemble commits them to 24 units, because there are 24 diodes per unit. If these came out at a start price of $2000, most of us would sit on our hands and wait to see Youtube vids, read reviews...before committing to a purchase.

At an introductory price of $200, Many of us buy one just because....such as myself...Im not even a laser guy...I have no real interest in these, other than the novelty of it. And i wouldnt even consider the purchase if they were $2000. But heck, i got 200 bucks......Even if i just throw it in the safe and sit on it. 

So, from a business standpoint, this is smart on the part of WL....They will have sold literally 100's (possibly thousands) of these before the first one is ever delivered. A quick nickle instead of a slow dime. 

Had they been in the $2000 range (which i expect them to be after the initial volley) They would be sitting on tons of these, waiting for people to justify the expense.


----------



## Raccoon

I understand DM51's concerns and inclinations to close/delete this thread. But I hope that doesn't happen.

First of all, the Lasers forum was created in 2005(ish) exactly for this reason. A place for this pseudo-legal "laser deathray" discussion without scaring the diapers off the tame flashlight folk.

Also, over the next few weeks, this thread will serve a very useful purpose. People will report on their purchase experiences, shipping/tracking times, and initial un-boxing reviews of the product when it finally arrives.

Deleting this thread will only cause a new one to pop up in its place. You can't stop people from discussing a new product on the market. You can prohibit it, but you can't stop it.

I suggest we rename the thread as simply "*Wicked Lasers 445nm <1W Spyder III Pro Arctic Series*". Moderators do have that ability.

If there are specific posts of unease, I'd recommend deleting those from the thread rather than removing the entire thread. Again, a new one will just pop up in its place, and there are already so many useful quality posts in this thread.


----------



## DM51

Raccoon, thank you for your very good post. I've changed the title as you suggest.


----------



## aml

I think that some of the most valuable posts in this thread are from the subject matter experts who are driving home the serious nature of a product like this, without demonizing it. I believe in freedom, and the freedom to own potentially dangerous products such as this...But i also believe that people should be acutely aware of the risks involved, and the safe handling procedures. 

When it comes to something like this, the point that it must be handled with respect, cannot be made too many times.

With all of that being said, and the previous mention of WL's sly business decisions, i think that a higher price point would eliminate the casual (and possibly more irresponsible) buyer. 

Even at $600, i think there would be less chance that these end up in the hands of misfit teenagers and the like.


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## Raccoon

With respect to your opinion, I am of the opinion that using price point as a discouragement tool is neither practical from a business sense nor legally justified in a free country touting a free market.

If we were to tax pointy sticks and 5 gallon buckets (filled with water) the same as we tax tobacco and alcohol, nobody would be able to afford to kill themselves.

Of course my example is saturated with sarcasm, but it speaks to the nature and absurdity of raising prices to protect the lower class from themselves. If anything, the lower class is much more accustomed and prepared in the handling of dangerous items than the cozy upper class.

Common sense and safety mindedness does not correlate with one's financial situation. The only purpose of raising the price of an item is to discourage the sale of that item. And if you cannot legally prohibit the sale of the item completely, then it should not be legal to discourage the sale by making it unaffordable.


----------



## R11GS

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Shiftlock said:


> ...I could be wrong about this, but I suspect that retinal damage may be less at 445nm than it is at 532nm...




My understanding has been that shorter wavelengths typically cause more retinal damage and that there is something physiologically different about how light in the 450nm region damages the eye. I have very good understanding of the physiology of visual perception (it's part of my job) but I am not that well versed in the physiology of retinal damage.

Personally I have a ton of respect for even 100mW @ 532nm but unless you take a direct (or specular) hit on the pupil I'm not overly concerned. It's to be avoided in my book however. I value my eyesight way too much and even doing damage that is below the perceptual level is something I definitely want to avoid. I'm old enough that everything's degrading on its own and I don't need to help it along!  Shorter wavelength laser at and order of magnitude more power concerns me quite a bit more - even a bright non-specular reflection _could_ cause some retinal damage albeit a far cry from blindness. Add to that that it will be perceptually much less bright which might decrease the natural aversion to the bright source.

Folks are right in that time will tell. More of these and brighter units will get out there and it's just a matter of how long and in how many hands. We'll see!


----------



## matt304

Is that Mel Gibson above me???

So guys, I just built a 445nm laser a couple of days ago. I am running the laser right near 1100mW at 1.2A current (Vf = 4.7V).

The beam is INSANE

I have a green laser that is over 400mW and this 1.1W of blue is still much brighter of a beam--I don't care what any of those vision charts say about the spectrum sensitivity. The dot is not brighter than the green dot, but the way the blue reflects off the air particles makes it something you have to see to believe.

Picture a blue neon tube running from your hand to the sky. That's the best way to imagine it.

You guys need to build one of these things and forget that Wicked Laser which won't come for weeks or months. I have one on order myself but couldn't wait. Get yourself a $30 driver, $50 host, $5 module, $55 aspheric AR coated lens, and a $35-50 diode. I can direct you to the parts if you want to build, PM me.

I'm going to run a new driver closer to 1.5A soon to max this thing out.

Don't even think about shining this indoors without eye protection. You will have enough fun pointing it at the sky.

The dot has a football shape and it's not very useful for burning. I always thought burning was overrated anyways.

R11GS, also about wavelengths, you are right that lower wavelengths damage tissue more than higher ones. If you take a 300mW red laser, you can press the lens against you skin and the wavelength won't burn you. The light passes the skin more easily. If you take 300mW of 405nm blue ray, you will not be able to pull your hand away fast enough if you attempt the same thing! Purple seems to stop right at the top of the skin, as if your clear skin becomes opaque to it. I would imagine you could apply somewhat similar theory to tissue on other parts of the body, such as inside the eye.


----------



## Raccoon

*Matt*: In your opinion, would you say that a blue module of these specifications would make an effective star pointing tool, especially with multiple viewers observing 20+ degrees from the angle of the beam? In side-by-side comparison, which is more comfortable to look at, and which one leads a more obvious path to the celestial object pointed at?


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found

matt304 said:


> If you take a 300mW red laser, you can press the lens against you skin and the wavelength won't burn you. The light passes the skin more easily.


 
How do you know you are not going to get a nice big patch of melanoma there 5 years from now? Just asking.


----------



## Shiftlock

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



aml said:


> Had they been in the $2000 range (which i expect them to be after the initial volley) They would be sitting on tons of these, waiting for people to justify the expense.



$2000? No way, they will only go down in price. They consist of nothing but a driver, a diode and a lens. They're vastly simpler than the green DPSS lasers we're all so used to. The diode is the only expensive part, and they're already available for under $40. You'll be able to get them in bulk from China for 1/4 that price within a year. I don't see how something you'll be able to put together for $30 could ever cost anywhere near $2000.



R11GS said:


> I'm old enough that everything's degrading on its own and I don't need to help it along!



Don't you hate the way that happens? I remember when I was younger, and there was no doubt in my mind that I was invincible. Doh! 



Raccoon said:


> Of course my example is saturated with sarcasm, but it speaks to the nature and absurdity of raising prices to protect the lower class from themselves. If anything, the lower class is much more accustomed and prepared in the handling of dangerous items than the cozy upper class.
> 
> Common sense and safety mindedness does not correlate with one's financial situation. The only purpose of raising the price of an item is to discourage the sale of that item. And if you cannot legally prohibit the sale of the item completely, then it should not be legal to discourage the sale by making it unaffordable.



Of course there are wealthy people who are reckless, but generally speaking, a higher price point means the purchase takes more of a commitment, and that makes it more likely to attract "serious" buyers who respect the safety of the item. A much lower price point makes the item attainable by people looking to "mess around" with a toy. That, and a lower price point simply means more of them will be purchased, which increases the chances that they will end up in unsafe hands. It's a numbers game. There's no question that a dangerous item is safer if it's more expensive (i.e. harder to get for most people), as opposed to when it's affordable by anyone with a few bucks. How can you doubt that?


----------



## Raccoon

Shiftlock said:


> Of course there are wealthy people who are reckless, but generally speaking, a higher price point means the purchase takes more of a commitment, and that makes it more likely to attract "serious" buyers who respect the safety of the item. A much lower price point makes the item attainable by people looking to "mess around" with a toy. That, and a lower price point simply means more of them will be purchased, which increases the chances that they will end up in unsafe hands. It's a numbers game. There's no question that a dangerous item is safer if it's more expensive (i.e. harder to get for most people), as opposed to when it's affordable by anyone with a few bucks. How can you doubt that?



I wont disagree with you there. But I will point out that the scenario is synonymous with attempting make something financially unattainable when it's impossible to outright prohibit -- which is a problem on two fronts. It not only harms the fundamentals of the free market system, but it causes the very problem you outline.

The reason there are fewer "serious buyers" out there who "respect the safety of the item" is because there were fewer buyers all along. The marketplace is only now opening up to a general public who can not only afford to purchase this particular product, but now they can afford to become serious hobbyists.

I'd like to point to a time when every household had a firearm, and every child between the age of 8 and 12 was fostered with training and respect for that firearm and all that it stood for. Now that we've become "civilized" as a society, children are no longer taught the fundamentals of firearms and only learn what they see in movies and rap videos.

This is pretty much the same thing with lasers -- and applies to any dangerous tool or instrument. We need to teach and foster respect for these dangers and the value of human life. That isn't going to happen when only 3 people own dangerous tools.


----------



## Juggernaut

matt304 said:


> The beam is INSANE
> 
> I have a green laser that is over 400mW and this 1.1W of blue is still much brighter of a beam--I don't care what any of those vision charts say about the spectrum sensitivity. The dot is not brighter than the green dot, but the way the blue reflects off the air particles makes it something you have to see to believe.


 
How well does it hit clouds? Not like the ones HID’s can hit, I mean the ones really high up in the atmosphere? I mean sure the beam can hit them, but can you see that from the ground:thumbsup:?


----------



## SmurfTacular

Im sure it can easily hit medium high clouds. I have a Viasho 500mW green that hits clouds with ease. And according to Matt, 400mW 532nm green is roughly equal to 1000mW 445nm blue.


----------



## Shiftlock

Raccoon said:


> I'd like to point to a time when every household had a firearm, and every child between the age of 8 and 12 was fostered with training and respect for that firearm and all that it stood for. Now that we've become "civilized" as a society, children are no longer taught the fundamentals of firearms and only learn what they see in movies and rap videos.
> 
> This is pretty much the same thing with lasers -- and applies to any dangerous tool or instrument. We need to teach and foster respect for these dangers and the value of human life. That isn't going to happen when only 3 people own dangerous tools.



Lasers for every child between the age of 8 and 12. I'm all for that! 

Seriously though, I don't want get off topic into the area of firearms, because that will get this thread closed, but I respectfully disagree with what you are saying. You're saying that if only "3 people" own a dangerous tool (say, a high-power laser), then the dangers of it aren't going to be respected? really? If only three people own a specific high-power laser, because only three people can afford it, you can be pretty darn certain that those three people are going to be professionals who understand laser safety issues. This seems obvious to me... Unless I misunderstood what you were saying. On the other hand, if the same laser cost $50, how many people are going to get a hold of it who don't understand or respect the safety issues?

Which is why these 1W 445nm lasers are a lot more dangerous at $200 than they would be at $2000. I'm not saying I want them to cost $2000, I just hope that when they drop to $50 in 12 months (which I expect), we don't hear horror stories of high-school kids using them in frivolous and dangerous ways. That's the danger of inexpensive high-power lasers. It would also cause authorities like the FDA to take notice, and create new regulations that will make them harder for anyone to get at any price point. These 1W 445nm lasers aren't even available yet, and there have already been stories about how dangerous they are in major news outlets like MSNBC, CNET, Fox News, and even the Wall Street Journal. Search Google News for "dangerous laser" and you'll see a bunch of articles that were published in the past week (http://bit.ly/azZCBG). All this public attention can't be good (unless you're the owner of Wicked Lasers).


----------



## SmurfTacular

Shiftlock said:


> Lasers for every child between the age of 8 and 12. I'm all for that!
> 
> Seriously though, I don't want get off topic into the area of firearms, because that will get this thread closed, but I respectfully disagree with what you are saying. You're saying that if only "3 people" own a dangerous tool (say, a high-power laser), then the dangers of it aren't going to be respected? really? If only three people own a specific high-power laser, because only three people can afford it, you can be pretty darn certain that those three people are going to be professionals who understand laser safety issues. This seems obvious to me... Unless I misunderstood what you were saying. On the other hand, if the same laser cost $50, how many people are going to get a hold of it who don't understand or respect the safety issues?
> 
> Which is why these 1W 445nm lasers are a lot more dangerous at $200 than they would be at $2000. I'm not saying I want them to cost $2000, I just hope that when they drop to $50 in 12 months (which I expect), we don't hear horror stories of high-school kids using them in frivolous and dangerous ways. That's the danger of inexpensive high-power lasers. It would also cause authorities like the FDA to take notice, and create new regulations that will make them harder for anyone to get at any price point. These 1W 445nm lasers aren't even available yet, and there have already been stories about how dangerous they are in major news outlets like MSNBC, CNET, Fox News, and even the Wall Street Journal. Search Google News for "dangerous laser" and you'll see a bunch of articles that were published in the past week (http://bit.ly/azZCBG). All this public attention can't be good (unless you're the owner of Wicked Lasers).




I think he might be referring to countries with nuclear weapons. If three people have them, there respected. But if everyone has them, nobody is intimidated.

maybe.

Oh, and I can't believe they used star wars as a metaphor to describe a Jedi as being a trained laser handler.

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2010/06/17/may-the-force-and-safety-goggles-be-with-you/


----------



## Lasernerd

I really hope you guys are wearing protective eyewear,,Don't even look at the spot on the wall without eye protection.

Man this talk about burning stuff in this thread is just silly


----------



## SmurfTacular

Lasernerd said:


> I really hope you guys are wearing protective eyewear,,Don't even look at the spot on the wall without eye protection.
> 
> Man this talk about burning stuff in this thread is just silly



I wouldn't say that it is silly; as long as you are wearing safety goggles of the correct wavelength, you should be fine


----------



## fabienne

So up until now, no one has received the shipment of this product since I haven't seen any actual review ? Seems that all the discussion is only based on the specifications released from WL website.


----------



## SmurfTacular

fabienne said:


> So up until now, no one has received the shipment of this product since I haven't seen any actual review ? Seems that all the discussion is only based on the specifications released from WL website.



yup. I ordered mine really early 6/11/2010. Once I receive it I will do beamshot comparisons between the 1W 445nm blue, and my Viasho 500mW green. The only problem is deciding witch safety goggles to wear


----------



## Isak Hawk

SmurfTacular said:


> yup. I ordered mine really early 6/11/2010. Once I receive it I will do beamshot comparisons between the 1W 445nm blue, and my Viasho 500mW green. The only problem is deciding witch safety goggles to wear



Get yourself a pair of these: 

http://store.oemlasersystems.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10_12&products_id=7

They block both of those wavelengths (and blu-ray too should you need it) with an OD rating of 7+ :thumbsup:


----------



## Flashanator

What a LOAD!!

Its from wicked lasers, I beat this thing's average output is miles below 1W & it's output which is prob all over the place probably falls very quickly & would overheat like crazy.

magnet for mischief


----------



## R11GS

was.lost.but.now.found said:


> How do you know you are not going to get a nice big patch of melanoma there 5 years from now? Just asking.




As much as I may sound like I lean towards paranoia with regards to the potential for retinal damage, cancer from non-ionizing radiation does not concern me in the least. Although I also believe there is both healthy paranoia (the kind that comes from survival instinct) and unhealthy paranoia (the kind that comes from those pesky voices in your head)!  On that old risk scale, an optical laser doing subtle changes to live cell DNA (i.e. potentially carcinogenic changes) and also not effect the surrounding material enough to just cause the cell to die seems extremely low. Ionizing radiation is very good at penetrating and just knocking small bits and pieces off of chemicals which is why it can be carcinogenic. I used to teach a short class on x-ray radiation (ionizing) safety about twenty years ago so while I am not that knowledgeable about the physiology of retinal damage, I have reasonable knowledge about the physiology of radiation hazards, albeit I'm far from being an "expert"....


----------



## Isak Hawk

Flashanator said:


> What a LOAD!!
> 
> Its from wicked lasers, I beat this thing's average output is miles below 1W & it's output which is prob all over the place probably falls very quickly & would overheat like crazy.
> 
> magnet for mischief



I don't see why, as it's just a diode (that's not made by wicked lasers). These diodes can easily run at 1W, and many people push them even harder. And really, even if it only has half the advertised output, $200 is still a pretty sweet deal 

As for overheating, I don't know. I would think it produces a lot less heat than something like a 400mW green for example. I don't believe wicked when they say it has a continuous duty cycle though :tinfoil:


----------



## Advil

Wicked is known to underpower and overprice their lasers though.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Flashanator said:


> Its from wicked lasers, I beat this thing's average output is miles below 1W & it's output which is prob all over the place probably falls very quickly & would overheat like crazy.






Advil said:


> Wicked is known to underpower and overprice their lasers though.



Woah woah, guys... Wicked Lasers may be freakishly over priced, but they do not under spec their lasers. I bought a 130mW Evolution pro, and they sent me one that averaged 145mW. And there was no heating issues at all even with the DPSS green. With a 1W direct blue non-DPSS diode I don't understand why you would think there would be any heat issues, especially considering how physically large the host is, and it has substantial heat fins around the diode.


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

<1.5mrad with a 1.5mm aperature beam? I'll believe it when I see it. These diodes are transverse multimode, and WL isn't going to do anything besides use a single aspheric. More likely, they will use the glass 3.lens aixiz. 

That said, it's not going to be a flashlight, it's not going to be any worse divergence than, say, a high-power red. Besides, divergence in a pointer is a good thing, IMO.

Thing about diode lasers is, you just can't beat their simplicity. Once you start getting inside the diode, that's when things get complicated.


----------



## SmurfTacular

I know, 1.5mrad is crazy. But I do not think its false advertising. WL has had crazy mrad readings in the past, and they don't seem to be inaccurate.


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

Well, with any luck, I should have a blue laser soon as well. Just nothing that looks as fancy as the arctic.


----------



## Raccoon

SmurfTacular said:


> I know, 1.5mrad is crazy. But I do not think its false advertising. WL has had crazy mrad readings in the past, and they don't seem to be inaccurate.



I hope you are aware that HIGHER value mRad ratings are WORSE than LOWER values like 1.2 mRad and 0.9 mRad. I cannot find a single laser sold on Wicked's site that exceeds 1.5 mRad (a pretty shitty value), because it wouldn't be much of a laser if the value got any higher.

So seriously, what's so "crazy" about 1.5 mRad? if they said 0.9, THEN I'd be skeptical.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Yes Im aware that the lower the better. I understand how mrad is measured. 
Im basing the fact that 1.5mrad is "crazy" because that is difficult to do with 1W of 445nm for some reason. I don't know exactly why, but I've been doing some reading, and people have been discussing that achieving 1W in 445nm is difficult.


----------



## Raccoon

Sure, people are contesting whether the 445nm diode can do 1W or not, but nobody really has an issue with the beam divergence of 1.5 mRad... though, some question whether you'll get a nice circle, a football shape, or a rectangle. There's nothing "crazy" about 1.5 mRad -- rather average actually.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Raccoon said:


> though, some question whether you'll get a nice circle, a football shape, or a rectangle.



God that would really suck; If it was not a circular beam


----------



## Isak Hawk

Raccoon said:


> Sure, people are contesting whether the 445nm diode can do 1W or not, but nobody really has an issue with the beam divergence of 1.5 mRad... though, some question whether you'll get a nice circle, a football shape, or a rectangle. There's nothing "crazy" about 1.5 mRad -- rather average actually.



According to people in the know, these diodes are transverse multimode (that means the dot is probably not circular SmurfTacular, it's likely a small line). It also means divergence will be pretty high, much higher than 1.5mrad. The only way wicked could get the divergence down to 1.5mrad (or get a circular dot) is if they use fancy optics. That's why some people (me included) are skeptical about wicked claiming a divergence of 1.5mrad, especially considering the price.

1.5mrad is pretty average for a DPSS laser (green lasers for example), but would be very good for a laser using this 445nm diode. 0.9mrad would be insane 

Also, getting 1W out of these diodes shouldn't be a problem. Some custom builders are running these at 1.5A which pushes the power over 1W


----------



## SmurfTacular

Isak Hawk said:


> According to people in the know, these diodes are transverse multimode (that means the dot is probably not circular SmurfTacular, it's likely a small line). It also means divergence will be pretty high, much higher than 1.5mrad. The only way wicked could get the divergence down to 1.5mrad (or get a circular dot) is if they use fancy optics. That's why some people (me included) are skeptical about wicked claiming a divergence of 1.5mrad, especially considering the price.
> 
> 1.5mrad is pretty average for a DPSS laser (green lasers for example), but would be very good for a laser using this 445nm diode. 0.9mrad would be insane
> 
> Also, getting 1W out of these diodes shouldn't be a problem. Some custom builders are running these at 1.5A which pushes the power over 1W



A small line???  It better not be, or i'd be extremely disappointed.

But realistically, I don't think WL would release a substandard laser of any kind. This laser has received so much attention, when they ship them out, so many people will say negative things about the laser; it would tarnish WL's reputation.


----------



## Shiftlock

Flashanator said:


> What a LOAD!!
> 
> Its from wicked lasers, I beat this thing's average output is miles below 1W & it's output which is prob all over the place probably falls very quickly & would overheat like crazy.
> 
> magnet for mischief



What I'm about to point out, I've already said, but many people still seem to be overlooking it. It's right in the subject title of this thread. The laser being discussed is advertised by Wicked Lasers as <1W (less than 1 watt), so even if it's "miles below 1W" nobody can complain. This laser could have an output of 50mW, and <1W would still be an accurate power description. Listing the power output of a laser with a "less than" sign is deceptive in my opinion, and I've never seen it done until now. This is why I'm very curious to learn what kind of numbers we see when someone measures the output of this laser with an accurate power meter. I could be wrong, but if I had to put money on it, I would bet it is indeed miles below 1W. I bet it's closer to 500mW. Can't wait to know for sure.

FWIW, I agree with your opinion of Wicked Lasers. Every DPSS laser I've tested from Wicked has measured lower than the claimed output, and has been very unstable. Could be just bad apples, but nevertheless, I don't hold WL in high regard. Just my opinion.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Shiftlock said:


> What I'm about to point out, I've already said, but many people still seem to be overlooking it. It's right in the subject title of this thread. The laser being discussed is advertised by Wicked Lasers as <1W (less than 1 watt), so even if it's "miles below 1W" nobody can complain. This laser could have an output of 50mW, and <1W would still be an accurate power description. Listing the power output of a laser with a "less than" sign is deceptive in my opinion, and I've never seen it done until now. This is why I'm very curious to learn what kind of numbers we see when someone measures the output of this laser with an accurate power meter. I could be wrong, but if I had to put money on it, I would bet it is indeed miles below 1W. I bet it's closer to 500mW. Can't wait to know for sure.
> 
> FWIW, I agree with your opinion of Wicked Lasers. Every DPSS laser I've tested from Wicked has measured lower than the claimed output, and has been very unstable. Could be just bad apples, but nevertheless, I don't hold WL in high regard. Just my opinion.




Keep in mind that WL doesn't manufacture their own laser diodes. They are literally harvested from a home theater projector. And the arctic series is classified as a class 4 laser, meaning it is above 500mW. So Id say that for it to not be considered false advertising, it'd have to be between 500mW and 1000mW. 

I realistically think that the actual output would be around 1W; 800mW ~ 1200mW. WL is in the media's lime light right now, and if they disapoint everyone they will tarnish their reputation. 
As I previously stated pages ago, I purchased a DPSS 532nm green 130mW Evolution pro and it tested at 145mW AVERAGE.


----------



## Isak Hawk

SmurfTacular said:


> A small line???  It better not be, or i'd be extremely disappointed.
> 
> But realistically, I don't think WL would release a substandard laser of any kind. This laser has received so much attention, when they ship them out, so many people will say negative things about the laser; it would tarnish WL's reputation.



Maybe small line is not the right way to describe it. Both my blu-ray and red cheapie are the same. I tried to find a picture to show you what I mean, but came up empty. I think most diode lasers are like that, and the only way to make it into a perfect dot is by using some kind of fancy optic. 

It's not really a problem, and you can only see it if you look at the dot up close. When shining the laser around it won't make any difference what the dot looks like, all you'll see is the beautiful beam  Well, if you're wearing the safety goggles you probably WON'T see the beam but...
This dot shape does decrease the up close burning power though, but with 1W of power I don't think that's going to be a problem 

What I'm trying to say is, don't worry, the dot shape probably won't mean anything as far as your satisfaction with this laser is concerned


----------



## Shiftlock

SmurfTacular said:


> I realistically think that the actual output would be around 1W; 800mW ~ 1200mW. WL is in the media's lime light right now, and if they disapoint everyone they will tarnish their reputation.
> As I previously stated pages ago, I purchased a DPSS 532nm green 130mW Evolution pro and it tested at 145mW AVERAGE.



Only a very small percentage of the people who buy one of these lasers will even know the difference between 500mW and 1W. Most probably wouldn't know the difference between 100mW and 1W. Considering the amount of advertising they do (major magazines and such), and the amount of free publicity they receive through the media, I'm sure the vast majority of their customers are technically ignorant when it comes to lasers. We laser enthusiasts make up the minority of their customer base, I'm sure. So it's hardly going to tarnish their reputation if this laser doesn't has an output well below 1W, and as long as they keep selling product (which they will with the amount of advertising they do), I'm not sure they care much about their reputation. Besides, why would they advertise it as <1W (under 1 watt) if it is actually ~>=1W (approximately greater than or equal to 1 watt)?

I understand you received a laser from WL with an output higher than what was stated. That makes you a satisfied customer, but a sample of one doesn't say much at all about the overall quality of their products as a whole. I've heard from a lot of people who received lasers from WL with power outputs lower than what was advertised, and I've measured a handful of them myself. I always got the feeling that WL cares more about aesthetics (super-futuristic-space-age-looking lasers with wild names like Spyder III Pro Arctic Series) than they do about the actual performance of their lasers.

There's only one way to know for sure what these lasers will do, and I'm patiently waiting until someone receives their order.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Isak Hawk said:


> Maybe small line is not the right way to describe it. Both my blu-ray and red cheapie are the same. I tried to find a picture to show you what I mean, but came up empty. I think most diode lasers are like that, and the only way to make it into a perfect dot is by using some kind of fancy optic.
> 
> It's not really a problem, and you can only see it if you look at the dot up close. When shining the laser around it won't make any difference what the dot looks like, all you'll see is the beautiful beam  Well, if you're wearing the safety goggles you probably WON'T see the beam but...
> This dot shape does decrease the up close burning power though, but with 1W of power I don't think that's going to be a problem
> 
> What I'm trying to say is, don't worry, the dot shape probably won't mean anything as far as your satisfaction with this laser is concerned











Are you refering to any of the following "dots"?























http://laserpointerforums.com/attachments/f44/17647-what-tem00-800px-hermite-gaussian.png


----------



## SmurfTacular

Shiftlock said:


> Only a very small percentage of the people who buy one of these lasers will even know the difference between 500mW and 1W. Most probably wouldn't know the difference between 100mW and 1W. Considering the amount of advertising they do (major magazines and such), and the amount of free publicity they receive through the media, I'm sure the vast majority of their customers are technically ignorant when it comes to lasers. We laser enthusiasts make up the minority of their customer base, I'm sure. So it's hardly going to tarnish their reputation if this laser doesn't has an output well below 1W, and as long as they keep selling product (which they will with the amount of advertising they do), I'm not sure they care much about their reputation. Besides, why would they advertise it as <1W (under 1 watt) if it is actually ~>=1W (approximately greater than or equal to 1 watt)?
> 
> I understand you received a laser from WL with an output higher than what was stated. That makes you a satisfied customer, but a sample of one doesn't say much at all about the overall quality of their products as a whole. I've heard from a lot of people who received lasers from WL with power outputs lower than what was advertised, and I've measured a handful of them myself. I always got the feeling that WL cares more about aesthetics (super-futuristic-space-age-looking lasers with wild names like Spyder III Pro Arctic Series) than they do about the actual performance of their lasers.
> 
> There's only one way to know for sure what these lasers will do, and I'm patiently waiting until someone receives their order.



This is true. We are the minority :mecry:. Witch is a really bad thing, because it seems as though that us minority are the only ones that fully respect laser safety. 

I do completely agree WL focuses way more on the physical appearance of their lasers as being futuristic. But IMHO they still do make above average lasers. Its like the company BOSE. They advertise more than other companies, and they have really appealing designs, but they still have above average sound quality.

If im not mistaken (and don't quote me on this) But I think the majority of WL's are just CNI lasers with a really cool looking host. And CNI has an impeccable reputation.

I still stick by my previous statement. The arctic series will be at least 800mW. But if it isn't please dont rub it in my face :laughing:.


----------



## Isak Hawk

SmurfTacular,

Maybe number 30 in the first picture, only without the spaces in between. Also, with a much, much dimmer perfect circle around it.

Here's a horrible photoshop I did that might give you some idea of what i'm talking about: 



You'll only see this at short range when studying the dot up close, and only when you're wearing protective goggles (looking at the dot up close without the goggles would be so blindingly bright you couldn't make out the shape of the dot at all, and then you would probably suffer eye damage  )

At long range it will probably be more of an oval shape, like an american football. And again you'll only be able to see this if you actually walk up to the dot. If you're 100 meters away, that 15cm diameter oval will look like a tiny perfectly round dot :thumbsup:


----------



## Shiftlock

SmurfTacular said:


> If im not mistaken (and don't quote me on this) But I think the majority of WL's are just CNI lasers with a really cool looking host. And CNI has an impeccable reputation.



Having been a CNI importer/dealer in the past, I'm pretty sure you are mistaken there. At least back when WL was starting out, I know for certain that their products had nothing to do with CNI. WL *may* have sold a CNI-based laser at some point, but I'm almost certain all of their lasers do not have CNI internals. Both being Chinese companies, though, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the parts come from the same manufacturers. After all, every green DPSS laser consists of the same basic parts. It's the quality of those parts and the precision with which they're assembled that makes all the difference, especially in a DPSS laser. That's obviously less of an issue with a simple diode laser like the 445nm unit this thread is referring to, so we'll see how it turns out.

BTW, while CNI may have been an innovator in the field of portable lasers, their products, too, are nothing I would consider spectacular. Although, it's been years since I was in the business and sold their products, so maybe they've improved. Back about five or six years ago, though, many of their high-powered 532nm PGL-III units were quite unstable and had serious quality-control problems. I once sat down and measured the output of 20 of them. I forget what the power output was supposed to be, but they ranged from 35mW to 380mW, and everything in between. I sold them here on CPF, and based the price on the measured power output.


----------



## Flashanator

The price is hilarious though, waiting for some reviews, measurements.

Good thing about this is, if it gets confiscated by police its not worth much.

I love the warnings WL put on their website, attract more ppl:naughty:


----------



## Raccoon

Shiftlock said:


> Having been a CNI importer/dealer in the past, I'm pretty sure you are mistaken there. At least back when WL was starting out, I know for certain that their products had nothing to do with CNI. WL *may* have sold a CNI-based laser at some point, but I'm almost certain all of their lasers do not have CNI internals. Both being Chinese companies, though, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the parts come from the same manufacturers.



If I recall correctly, WL was selling CNI lasers when his site was shut down and he fled the country (US) to China. Remember, it wasn't until he fled to China that he actually had real affiliations with Chinese manufacturing. In the US, he was doing the same thing as everyone else -- cherry picking green laser pointers (What's that pointer that Arthur still sells?) and just getting into CNI PGL-III's (or was it GPL or GLP?).

I'm curious. Does Tao (Wicked Lasers) still have an arrest warrant or other legal trouble preventing him from entering U.S. soil?


----------



## StarHalo

Raccoon said:


> If I recall correctly,



Too much drama.

Less soap opera, more photons burning sh*t.. :rock:


----------



## Shiftlock

Raccoon said:


> If I recall correctly, WL was selling CNI lasers when his site was shut down and he fled the country (US) to China. Remember, it wasn't until he fled to China that he actually had real affiliations with Chinese manufacturing. In the US, he was doing the same thing as everyone else -- cherry picking green laser pointers (What's that pointer that Arthur still sells?) and just getting into CNI PGL-III's (or was it GPL or GLP?).
> 
> I'm curious. Does Tao (Wicked Lasers) still have an arrest warrant or other legal trouble preventing him from entering U.S. soil?



I don't want to get into discussing Chris Tao and his legal problems, because it's off topic and I may say things that are better left unsaid. He has to live with the choices he's made in life. For someone who is so friendly in person, he sure has deceptive business practices. And that's all I'm saying about that.

He did have connections with Chinese manufacturers when he was living in Connecticut and attending UCONN, though.


----------



## Raccoon

Yes, but wouldn't it be *fun* if all the journalists reading our posts with bated breath were to dig into Wicked Laser's shady history? I digress. WL's FBI rap sheet is for another thread.


----------



## Flashanator

Any Aussies game enough to order this baby? What with our laws & possible fines.


----------



## Shiftlock

Raccoon said:


> Yes, but wouldn't it be *fun* if all the journalists reading our posts with bated breath were to dig into Wicked Laser's shady history? I digress. WL's FBI rap sheet is for another thread.



FWIW, I don't believe that Chris is affiliated with WL anymore. I believe he sold the whole thing. I don't know this for sure, but I heard rumors while back, and it's the impression I get by the way the company has changed. Oh well, who knows...


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

Raccoon said:


> Sure, people are contesting whether the 445nm diode can do 1W or not, but nobody really has an issue with the beam divergence of 1.5 mRad...


 Nobody is contesting whether the 445nm diode can do 1W or not. Everybody is curious about the beam divergence claim of 1.5mRad, though. This diode is transverse multimode, you will see a line of emission. Also, divergence will be crap on the fast-diverging axis.





SmurfTacular said:


> God that would really suck; If it was not a circular beam



This means bad for holograms. For a pointer, who cares. No sweat, Smurf, you'll like it. It'll be a line, but the line will be as wide as a dot if you were using a regular diode. 



Isak Hawk said:


> Here's a horrible photoshop I did that might give you some idea of what i'm talking about:


Leads me to believe there needs to be more efficient lenses to capture the entire emitting area



Raccoon said:


> If I recall correctly, (buncha stuff about WL owner)





Raccoon said:


> Yes, but wouldn't it be *fun* if all the journalists reading our posts with bated breath were to dig into Wicked Laser's shady (link)history? I digress. WL's FBI rap sheet is for another thread.



You are aware of the underground, raccoon? I think it would be a better fit for these types of posts. Besides, whose side are you on? I, for one, like light, especially light from semiconductors. It would pain me to know that I could have bought some 445nm 1W diodes, but that because of the media panic and a bunch of people on the intarwebs, they will have been banned and I won't have bought any in time. Let us all work together to keep monochromatic coherent light sources available to the public.


----------



## PhantomPhoton

I too am waiting for the product to ship to actual customers (+ reviews). Once I see that happening I may put in an order for one. Personally I'd be okay with the diode only running at 0.5W. But I don't like how wicked has put the <1W marketing crud out there when what I really want to know is the minimum output. Beyond power output I'm also waiting for a review on the divergence. 
Too good to be true was definitely my first thought, so I'm not jumping in without taking a look around first.


----------



## matt304

bshanahan14rulz said:


> Leads me to believe there needs to be more efficient lenses to capture the entire emitting area



Uh, no.

It is a MULTIMODE diode. It has nothing to do with lenses not capturing the entire emitting area. The lens easily captures the entire emission. The laser cavity emits an excited output shape of a 'slit'. Just like a squished football.

The way you correct this is with a lens assembly shaped like a half cylinder. Light enters the flat side and one axis stays the same while the other axis widens. Or, an anamorphic prism pair is used. I have found anamorphic pairs, but the stinking things are not coated for 400-500nm range light and are useless. They ain't cheap, either!

Someone asked me if my 1.1W laser will hit clouds. No, not really. The beam is super bright an visible, but laser beams mostly look the same because your eyes cannot determine the length of the beam. A 445nm beam actually terminates earlier in the air from the observers view than say, a 400mW 532nm green laser. Side by side, the observable difference would be a tiny amount up in the sky, but in reality that difference is in miles. The football shaped 'dot' from my 1.1W laser gets huge very fast. You can see the dot on buildings at maybe 1000 yards or more, but if it was a true dot with the divergence of the narrow axis of the beam now, that dot would be visible at 3000+/- yards.

The only thing cool about the 445nm laser, so far, is the beam. A blu-ray laser at 500mW will burn the skin and objects much better than 445nm due to a true dot shape with amazingly tight divergence.

If someone can correct the beam to a dot, and then focus it, problems will be solved and this laser will become truly amazing.

Oh, someone also asked about star pointing? I don't know, that pretty odd you would seek a 1W laser for star pointing. Of course it will point to stars. So will 50mW of green.


----------



## TheFathomlessBlue

Here it is boys and girls.....

The Arctic III does in fact exisit!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-SduY4A2kE


----------



## ejot

cool :rock:


----------



## StarHalo

TheFathomlessBlue said:


> Here it is boys and girls.....
> 
> The Arctic III does in fact exisit!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-SduY4A2kE



lol, blue neon indeed! It just looks like a long, thin Lightsaber.. And I'm definitely not concerned about the shape of the beam after seeing that, you'd need welder goggles just to see where exactly the beam is hitting..


----------



## Shiftlock

TheFathomlessBlue said:


> Here it is boys and girls.....
> 
> The Arctic III does in fact exisit!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-SduY4A2kE



Interesting. That video was posted by the YouTube account "wickedlasersvids". Is that Wicked Lasers themselves, or a customer? With the low price and all the media attention, WL has to have received a metric sh*t ton of orders for that unit, so I wonder how long it's going to take them to ship them all. They're going to have to cannibalize a ton of projectors, if that's where they're really getting the diodes. I imagine they've at least attempted to get the diodes direct from the manufacturer, though.

I'm still waiting for a video of some power measurements.


----------



## matt304

Based on all of the testing I have followed plotting these diodes and plotting myself, there should be no problem at all getting 1 watt out of the WL to meet their claim. Hell, I use a little heatsink for 1.1W and it gets warm, but that huge thing they are using should have no problem! That laser is way bigger than I had expected, or hoped for.


----------



## Shiftlock

matt304 said:


> Based on all of the testing I have followed plotting these diodes and plotting myself, there should be no problem at all getting 1 watt out of the WL to meet their claim. Hell, I use a little heatsink for 1.1W and it gets warm, but that huge thing they are using should have no problem! That laser is way bigger than I had expected, or hoped for.



Where did you get the diode, if you don't mind me asking?


----------



## matt304

Shiftlock said:


> Where did you get the diode, if you don't mind me asking?



A forum friend who bought a projector containing 24 of them.


----------



## Isak Hawk

That dot looks much better than I expected, small and round :thumbsup:

I wonder if it's just the video making it look better than it actually is or if wicked really solved the transverse multimode issue? Seems unlikely that they put anamorphic prisms and stuff in a $200 laser...

Anyway, that thing looks badass and I can't wait to get mine :naughty:


----------



## AnAppleSnail

Isak Hawk said:


> That dot looks much better than I expected, small and round :thumbsup:
> 
> I wonder if it's just the video making it look better than it actually is or if wicked really solved the transverse multimode issue? Seems unlikely that they put anamorphic prisms and stuff in a $200 laser...
> 
> Anyway, that thing looks badass and I can't wait to get mine :naughty:


:duh2:
It's a 1.5mm speck of burning fire, I doubt its shape is apparent in a youtube video...?


----------



## ejot

The dot shape is shown very clearly through a filter that blocks most of the radiation.


----------



## Raccoon

So much for the theory of a grossly football shaped dot. Though the beam shot video has to be around 20 feet, I see no indication of ugliness. Now if they would release a 100 meter beam shot video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-SduY4A2kE#t=2m15s

Now I'd like to know how much of that side spillage is camera bloom, and how much is actual side spillage (flashlight).


----------



## senecaripple

PhantomPhoton said:


> I too am waiting for the product to ship to actual customers (+ reviews). Once I see that happening I may put in an order for one. Personally I'd be okay with the diode only running at 0.5W. But I don't like how wicked has put the <1W marketing crud out there when what I really want to know is the minimum output. Beyond power output I'm also waiting for a review on the divergence.
> Too good to be true was definitely my first thought, so I'm not jumping in without taking a look around first.




by then the price may jump astronomically!


----------



## Isak Hawk

AnAppleSnail said:


> :duh2:
> It's a 1.5mm speck of burning fire, I doubt its shape is apparent in a youtube video...?



Did you watch the video to the end? The guy puts a filter in front of the camera so you can see the dot nicely, without the intense light and blooming 

Edit: oops, didn't see ejot's post


----------



## matt304

Raccoon said:


> So much for the theory of a grossly football shaped dot. Though the beam shot video has to be around 20 feet, I see no indication of ugliness. Now if they would release a 100 meter beam shot video.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-SduY4A2kE#t=2m15s
> 
> Now I'd like to know how much of that side spillage is camera bloom, and how much is actual side spillage (flashlight).



It looks like they may have actually used cylindrical lenses to correct the football shaped output of the diode.

It's hard to tell, though. The youtube quality sucks ***, and it almost appears there is a darker "line" through the middle of the dot. A high def video very close through a filter would work better.

Why would anyone hesitate to buy this? Reviews? Come on, you can't apply that tactic here. This is something too good to get away. Order the damned thing, it's $200 bucks. If it isn't up to your idea of quality for $200, which is almost impossible when you compare to any other laser, just sell the thing on the forums and get your money right back!


----------



## Bimmerboy

Most interesting, lively, and overall best laser thread in a good while.

Glad it stayed open! :thumbsup:


----------



## Raccoon

New thread including stills of the video's beam shots.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/280601

I'd encourage few postings on that thread, and more images as they come in. Less pages equals more quality.


----------



## Fat Boy

Anybody else notice that they raised the price of the 2 year warranty? I just called them to find out what is up and they said at least one more week till shipping. ?!?!


----------



## wyager

Fat Boy said:


> Anybody else notice that they raised the price of the 2 year warranty? I just called them to find out what is up and they said at least one more week till shipping. ?!?!


That's because even though these diodes can handle above 2 watts without dying, even at 1 watt the power output will drop over a few dozen hours of use, and on top of that since these lasers are so cheap someone with no laser experience will, say, leave it sitting on a table until the diode heats up too much, gets COD, heats up more, and BOOM 18650 explosion. There's just more risk with these I think.


----------



## Fat Boy

also they have taken my money about a week + but I still havn't gotten an email confirmation. I called and asked for the email to be sent again and I still havn't gotten it. I did verify that they have my correct email and address for shipping. Anybody actually get an email?


----------



## wyager

Fat Boy said:


> also they have taken my money about a week + but I still havn't gotten an email confirmation. I called and asked for the email to be sent again and I still havn't gotten it. I did verify that they have my correct email and address for shipping. Anybody actually get an email?


How much have you paid them, total? Just wondering because if you paid a while back they only charged you $200 but won't send you anything unless you pay them an extra $30 for shipping. If you paid about $230 you're good. Keep in mind they're totally inundated.


----------



## Shiftlock

Fat Boy said:


> also they have taken my money about a week + but I still havn't gotten an email confirmation. I called and asked for the email to be sent again and I still havn't gotten it. I did verify that they have my correct email and address for shipping. Anybody actually get an email?



They're too busy ripping apart projectors to answer the phone or send emails. 

Seriously though, with all the media and blog attention this laser has received, I could see Wicked Lasers selling 20,000 of these. If they make $100 profit on each one, that's a cool $2 million.

Will someone please tell me why I'm not the one doing this?!


----------



## Raccoon

Shiftlock said:


> Will someone please tell me why I'm not the one doing this?!



It's not too late, other people are already cashing in on this. One guy at LaserPointerForums is selling each diode for $35, and arrays of 24 for $550 ($23 ea), so he's making at least $12 to $20 profit per diode sold... and he's already sold 6 dozen diodes, plus numerous arrays. That's an earning of at _least_ $864 on the diodes, and as much as $1200 to $2000 profit total. In just 2 weeks.


----------



## wyager

Raccoon said:


> It's not too late, other people are already cashing in on this. One guy at LaserPointerForums is selling each diode for $35, and arrays of 24 for $550 ($23 ea), so he's making at least $12 to $20 profit per diode sold... and he's already sold 6 dozen diodes, plus numerous arrays. That's an earning of at _least_ $864 on the diodes, and as much as $1440 to $2500 profit total. In just 2 weeks.



BTW, those projectors cost $700 minimum. So it's not a huge profit, about $6 apiece. However, right up until recently they were selling for $50 apiece. And right before that, they were $30,000 apiece


----------



## Raccoon

wyager said:


> BTW, those projectors cost $700 minimum. So it's not a huge profit, about $6 apiece. However, right up until recently they were selling for $50 apiece. And right before that, they were $30,000 apiece



If they are spending $700 on the projector, then they are fools for selling arrays for $550. That's a $150 loss per projector.


----------



## SmurfTacular

I hope that you guys realize that each projector contains about 24 445nm 1W diodes, so buying a single projector for $700 and selling 24 arctics gives you a profit margin of 4,800 per projector. Ofcourse you would have to factor in the price of the host, lens etc. And if they sell 10,000 of these, they are currently dominating the 445nm laser market.


----------



## wyager

Raccoon said:


> If they are spending $700 on the projector, then they are fools for selling arrays for $550. That's a $150 loss per projector.


Keep in mind there are fans, lenses, MEMS, LEDs, and a lot more inside.



SmurfTacular said:


> I hope that you guys realize that each projector contains about 24 445nm 1W diodes


yes, we realize that....


----------



## dieselducy

I ordered mine today, I hope i get it before the end of the summer :duh2: OH and here is a STUPID question? is the thing waterproof??


----------



## wyager

dieselducy said:


> I ordered mine today, I hope i get it before the end of the summer :duh2: OH and here is a STUPID question? is the thing waterproof??




The FDA requirements render it not waterproof.... I think the safety pin hole is not waterproof. Wicked says it is "water resistant", but not submergeable.


----------



## TooManyGizmos

~
It's been mentioned on here that Lasers can scare birds away.

Can someone explain to me how they do that ?

~


----------



## wyager

TooManyGizmos said:


> ~
> It's been mentioned on here that Lasers can scare birds away.
> 
> Can someone explain to me how they do that ?
> 
> ~


This only works with some colors and some birds. Plus, this power level is WAY to high to use on birds. A:it's cruel and B:it's dangerous.


----------



## AnAppleSnail

TooManyGizmos said:


> ~
> It's been mentioned on here that Lasers can scare birds away.
> 
> Can someone explain to me how they do that ?
> 
> ~


Birds don't like bright lights, and probably see laser beams as objects near them. I think this one will permanently blind them too


----------



## TooManyGizmos

~

I don't wanna hurt em ..........

Just wanna make em fly away ..........

and stay OFF my pool cage .

( Storks - cranes & pelicans )

Also don't wanna burn either the bird .... or my screens .

What color works ? What power level ?

~


----------



## Isak Hawk

EDIT: nvm. I don't think we can discuss things like this here...


----------



## TooManyGizmos

~

I'm just tirda bangin metal trash can lids together.

~


----------



## SmurfTacular

I think a 50mW green would suffice.


----------



## TooManyGizmos

~

I guess I'll try the $25 , 50 mW green from LED Shoppe.

~


----------



## SmurfTacular

Yeah those are great lasers, they are usually over spec and they have great divergence. If you have not already used a 50mW green laser you will be blown away.


----------



## Shiftlock

Raccoon said:


> If they are spending $700 on the projector, then they are fools for selling arrays for $550. That's a $150 loss per projector.



So then he's obviously found a source for the diode sub-assembly without buying the entire projector, which is something I've been wondering about. Remember, when you're dealing with a Chinese electronics production/assembly company, there's very little that can't be negotiated, and usually for a surprisingly low price.

Keep in mind that Casio has to be making a decent profit with retailers selling the completed projector for $700, so the diode board itself must cost only a fraction of that to produce, especially at wholesale Chinese prices. I'm betting it can be had with all 24 diodes for under $300, probably in quantities of 20 or so. That's just a guess, but I also bet that someone reading this knows for certain and isn't saying anything. I would also bet that person just cracked a smile.


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

glad I didn't buy that $500 500mW blue diode a while back...


----------



## wyager

The diodes cost cents apiece to manufacture in this volume. All 24 of those diodes probably cost less than 10 dollars to make. Also, lasers suck at scaring birds away permanently. Get a potato gun or a shotgun or something.


----------



## Juggernaut

Fat Boy said:


> also they have taken my money about a week + but I still havn't gotten an email confirmation. I called and asked for the email to be sent again and I still havn't gotten it. I did verify that they have my correct email and address for shipping. Anybody actually get an email?


 
:shakeheadNo E-mail confirmation from Wicked Lasers, just that they got my money:sigh:……


----------



## Juggernaut

Juggernaut said:


> :shakeheadNo E-mail confirmation from Wicked Lasers, just that they got my money:sigh:……


 
Oh Good News after checking my E-mail account for like the millionth time, I decided to check the spam box, and what do you know….. There was another Wicked Lasers E-mail:thumbsup: “Guess this is the actual confirmation one:shrug:, I’d hope so at leastoo:!” Anyways everyone who didn’t get their second E-mail check you spam box, out of 750 E-mails I’ve gotten this year only 4 went to the spam box including this one!


----------



## senecaripple

i got an order number from wl, is there suppose to be another e-mail from them?


----------



## 65535

What happened to we won't charge your credit card until the product ships. Novel idea now?


----------



## ejot

65535 said:


> What happened to we won't charge your credit card until the product ships. Novel idea now?


Are you just saying that's what they _should _do, or did they actually promise this somewhere?


----------



## Illum

TooManyGizmos said:


> ~
> It's been mentioned on here that Lasers can scare birds away.
> 
> Can someone explain to me how they do that ?
> 
> ~



certain animals perceive different wavelength's of light differently, pigeons will fly from seeing red or green, cats loves red, not so much green...squirrels love green, not so much red...as far as blue goes I'm not entirely sure...but given how honeybees find nectar because hey reflect the near UV spectrum I don't want to find out


----------



## Apollo Cree

*Blindness*

I'll admit I'm afraid of a 1W laser. 

However, the media and others keep sensationalizing it by claiming it will blind you. 

If you did catch the beam of one of these things in the eye, wouldn't it burn holes in your retina, but not completely blind you? This is certainly a bad thing, but a lot less bad than complete blindness. Wouldn't you still have vision in most of your visual field, just not in a spot or two, or maybe blindness along a line where the beam swept across your retina as you reacted to the beam? 

Or is there some effect I'm not aware of where a laser flash will damage the entire retina, not just the point of impact?


----------



## Shiftlock

ejot said:


> Are you just saying that's what they _should _do, or did they actually promise this somewhere?



I'm not sure what he was referring to, but I do know that under Visa and Mastercard's merchant contract, a merchant cannot charge a customer's card before shipment unless the customer agrees to it in the terms of the sale (like a deposit or down payment situation). So, if Wicked Lasers has charged your card and hasn't shipped the item, that's not permitted under their merchant contract with Visa and Mastercard. American Express is different. A merchant can charge an American Express card as soon as the customer gives them the number, but if the item hasn't shipped by the time the AMEX bill arrives, the charge is put on hold while it's investigated.

At least, this is the way things were a few years ago. I doubt they've changed.


----------



## wyager

*Re: Blindness*



Apollo Cree said:


> I'll admit I'm afraid of a 1W laser.
> 
> However, the media and others keep sensationalizing it by claiming it will blind you.
> 
> If you did catch the beam of one of these things in the eye, wouldn't it burn holes in your retina, but not completely blind you? This is certainly a bad thing, but a lot less bad than complete blindness. Wouldn't you still have vision in most of your visual field, just not in a spot or two, or maybe blindness along a line where the beam swept across your retina as you reacted to the beam?
> 
> Or is there some effect I'm not aware of where a laser flash will damage the entire retina, not just the point of impact?



I've heard the eye is very sensitive to rapid thermal expansion... and considering your eye focuses a lot of the energy into one small spot, it's perfectly capable of heating that spot to well above boiling instantly and the whole eye at least a few degrees instantly. What you said is true for cameras, I think because they're not sensitive to heat, but the fact is 1 watt of laser power presents a lot more of an issue to weak human eye tissue. If you get this in your eye without goggles, or even a reflection of glass be prepared to lose your sight. What the media IS sensationalizing is the burning ability. They say it will light skin on fire, and while it stings very quickly it would take a 20 watt CO2 to set you on fire....


----------



## Shiftlock

*Re: Blindness*



wyager said:


> They say it will light skin on fire, and while it stings very quickly it would take a 20 watt CO2 to set you on fire....



Anybody have an opinion regarding whether or not that kind of power will ever come out of a pocketable diode laser? I've been thinking about the future concept of a diode-based laser personal-safety weapon. Remember that twenty-five years ago, a 1W diode laser emitting 445nm was laughable.


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Blindness*



Shiftlock said:


> Anybody have an opinion regarding whether or not that kind of power will ever come out of a pocketable diode laser?



It's inevitable; the idea of the computer you just typed that message on was laughable only a couple of decades ago..


----------



## wyager

*Re: Blindness*



Shiftlock said:


> Anybody have an opinion regarding whether or not that kind of power will ever come out of a pocketable diode laser? I've been thinking about the future concept of a diode-based laser personal-safety weapon. Remember that twenty-five years ago, a 1W diode laser emitting 445nm was laughable.



Keep in mind we are basically there. I'm pretty sure we already have 20 watt IR lasers in 12mm diodes (the same size as a standard laser module). The only problem is the heat. The current rule of thumb is that with a functioning diode, for every watt of light output you get 4 watts of heat. We're basically at the limit here for heat dissipation with 1 watt lasers. 2 watts is doable with a good heatsink and say, 30 seconds on 5 minutes off duty cycle. The next challenge is increasing efficiency, and this might actually happen as the industry is interested in super-portable high-powered projectors. My guess is the laser hobby will soon suffer the fate of government regulation, like the model rocket hobby experienced ever since a while back.


----------



## Raccoon

I'm just holding my breath for even more powerful laser video projectors like this one, so we can have our drive-in movie theaters back.

The main reason we don't see drive-in movie theaters very often anymore, is because they stopped making movies on the super-thick film required to withstand the heat of a super-bright outdoor projection bulb. And while we do have digital projectors that are capable of projecting on a drive-in theater screen, they cost more than most theaters would make in 10 years.

If we can ramp this Casio projector's power up 10x, we'd see outdoor drive-in theaters come back into fashion!


----------



## StarHalo

Raccoon said:


> If we can ramp this Casio projector's power up 10x, we'd see outdoor drive-in theaters come back into fashion!



200' WIDE 4K HIGH-DEF IMAX FM AUDIO CARHOP CONCESSION AIRPORT TARMAC :rock:


----------



## wyager

StarHalo said:


> 200' WIDE 4K HIGH-DEF IMAX FM AUDIO CARHOP CONCESSION AIRPORT TARMAC :rock:


----------



## TooManyGizmos

~

I'd miss the speaker trees ........

that always broke out your side window as you drove off .

~


----------



## PhotonWrangler

W/L is apparently in trouble with George Lucas over the whole Lightsaber thing...


----------



## Apollo Cree

*Re: Blindness*



wyager said:


> I've heard the eye is very sensitive to rapid thermal expansion... and considering your eye focuses a lot of the energy into one small spot, it's perfectly capable of heating that spot to well above boiling instantly and the whole eye at least a few degrees instantly..



No matter how well focused, it's only 1 watt. Blink reflex is going to kick in and keep eye exposure to a lot less than a second. 1 watt for 1/4 of a second is not going to significantly heat up more than a tiny volume of eye tissue. 

Rough calculations.
Assume the eye is about the size of a 2 cm cube. 
It's mostly water, so it's about 8 cc or 8 ml. 
8 ml weighs about 0.016 lbs. 
1 watt for 1/4 second is 1/4 joule. 
1/4 joule is about 0.00025 BTU
0.00025 BTU will heat 0.016 lbs of water by 0.015 degrees F. 

Yes, you may burn a small spot, but I don't see how you're going to heat up more than a small spot on the eye in the 1/4 second or so it takes to blink. 

1/4 Joule will only boil 0.00014 grams of water, so you're not going to cause much damage to a widespread area from steam. 

I will admit to the possibility that there is some other effect that might cause blindness over a larger area, but I haven't heard of it yet. 

Yes, I can easily believe damage to a small spot on the retina because it's focused on a tiny area. However, for widespread damage, 1 watt is simply not that much power in terms of causing heat damage over anything other than the tiniest area for such a short exposure time.


----------



## wyager

*Re: Blindness*



Apollo Cree said:


> No matter how well focused, it's only 1 watt. Blink reflex is going to kick in and keep eye exposure to a lot less than a second. 1 watt for 1/4 of a second is not going to significantly heat up more than a tiny volume of eye tissue.
> 
> Rough calculations.
> Assume the eye is about the size of a 2 cm cube.
> It's mostly water, so it's about 8 cc or 8 ml.
> 8 ml weighs about 0.016 lbs.
> 1 watt for 1/4 second is 1/4 joule.
> 1/4 joule is about 0.00025 BTU
> 0.00025 BTU will heat 0.016 lbs of water by 0.015 degrees F.
> 
> Yes, you may burn a small spot, but I don't see how you're going to heat up more than a small spot on the eye in the 1/4 second or so it takes to blink.
> 
> 1/4 Joule will only boil 0.00014 grams of water, so you're not going to cause much damage to a widespread area from steam.
> 
> I will admit to the possibility that there is some other effect that might cause blindness over a larger area, but I haven't heard of it yet.
> 
> Yes, I can easily believe damage to a small spot on the retina because it's focused on a tiny area. However, for widespread damage, 1 watt is simply not that much power in terms of causing heat damage over anything other than the tiniest area for such a short exposure time.


The part of the eye that isn't just jelly is VERY small, and able to heat up VERY fast when light falls on it... if that's not that much energy, explain to me why a hundred mW will still cause instant blindness (MUCH faster than you can blink). If you think a watt is no big deal, go ahead, use it without goggles. Just don't sue anyone when you hear that "pop" and the innards of your eye are destroyed.


also WTF is with george lucas suing wicked? Seriously? wtf....


----------



## Shiftlock

Raccoon said:


> I'm just holding my breath for even more powerful laser video projectors like this one, so we can have our drive-in movie theaters back.
> 
> The main reason we don't see drive-in movie theaters very often anymore, is because they stopped making movies on the super-thick film required to withstand the heat of a super-bright outdoor projection bulb.



That sounds like an urban legend. I recall the main reason given for the decline and eventual disappearance of drive-in theaters was economics. Land in most areas became too valuable to use for a drive-in theater, which in many parts can only operate in the warmer months of the year. Other factors were the widespread adoption of daylight-savings time, which limited showtime hours (particularly in the summer), and the invention of color television, which had people spending more time watching home entertainment. The shrinking interior-size of cars may have played a part, as well. All of these factors together made drive-ins unprofitable. 

Designing a projector with adequate cooling to prevent from melting film shouldn't be difficult. I'm sure modern IMAX projectors that display on screens up to eight stories high are many times more powerful than old-time drive-in projectors. Besides, an outdoor drive-in projector doesn't really need to be more powerful than an indoor projector. I remember drive-ins being a lot "dimmer" than indoor movies, so it wouldn't surprise me if they used the same projectors.

Unfortunately, I don't think anything is going to bring back the drive-in theater. The drive-in is a charming relic of a bygone era.


----------



## Apollo Cree

*Re: Blindness*



wyager said:


> The part of the eye that isn't just jelly is VERY small, and able to heat up VERY fast when light falls on it... if that's not that much energy, explain to me why a hundred mW will still cause instant blindness (MUCH faster than you can blink). If you think a watt is no big deal, go ahead, use it without goggles. Just don't sue anyone when you hear that "pop" and the innards of your eye are destroyed.



Try reading before posting next time. 

I agree that it might cause a pinhole burn in your retina. I don't see any effect that would cause intense light on one spot on the retina to spread out and cause heating across the whole of the retina. Even if you intensely heat up one small section of the retina for a very short period of time, I see no mechanism to rapidly spread the heat over the whole retina. 

I'm an engineer and do understand what a watt is, how much heat it generates, and how thermodynamics and heat flow works. 

Unless the fluid in your eye is liquid helium, it's not some sort of heat superconductor that's going to instantly spread the heat over the whole retina. Heat will flow outward in three dimensions through the tissue of your eye and the temperature will drop rapidly from the pinpoint spot heated by the laser. 

I've seen no indication that a few hundred mW will instantly cause blindness over the whole visual field. Yes, it may cause a pinhole burn in the retina. 

Remember, they use lasers all the time to reattach retinas or do other things in the eye. It burns a tiny spot on the retina, it doesn't magically spread over the whole retina and burn it. Yes, it may cause a small blind spot where the laser hits. It's like spot welding on the retina. 

Remember, I said it might damage the retina and leave a blind spot, so no, thanks, I'm not going to be willing to burn holes in my retina to prove you wrong. You're welcome to try and pop your own eyeballs if you want to. Buy a laser, get some cow eyeballs, and have fun. They won't pop with a few seconds of exposure. 

As far as something going pop, try reading again. Turning 0.14 milligrams of water into steam is not going to make your eyeball pop. 

However, after a little thought, I realize you might be able to blind the whole eye if you hit the optic nerve head and burned the head of the optic nerve. However, that's a very tiny target to hit. I suspect it would be hard to do that much damage that quickly. There were also some military laser rangefinders that were known to rupture blood vessels in the eye and cause blindness by filling the eye with blood. I believe they were very high power infrared lasers, though. 

Once again, in case you're STILL not reading what's posted here, *It's a really BAD idea to point one of these into your eye or use one without proper eye protection.* I think it's entirely possible to almost instantly end up with blindness in a small spot of your visual field, if not worse. Picture it like when a camera flash leaves a blind spot in your vision, but it NEVER goes away. 

I'll go further and say it's a bad idea for any of us "normal" people to use one of these 1 W lasers at all. Entirely too much chance to accidentally get a reflection off of something and damage someone's vision. 

As mom said, "It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Blindness*



Apollo Cree said:


> it's a bad idea for any of us "normal" people to use one of these 1 W lasers at all.



Oh we CPF folk are definitely covered then..


----------



## SmurfTacular

*Re: Blindness*

I just got an email from WL saying:



> Thank you for purchasing our Spyder III Arctic <1W portable laser.
> We sincerely appreciate your patience for bearing with us while we
> prepare to ship your order to you. We have an important
> announcement that will affect your order.
> 
> Due to the overwhelming popularity and media coverage of the S3
> Arctic laser, we are implementing an electronic switch upgrade to
> the laser for all customers, free of charge. This upgrade will
> enable the following functional and safety features on your S3
> Arctic laser:
> 
> 1) Adjustable Power Mode : Low power and high power modes are now
> selectable. Laser's default power mode is low power mode.
> 
> 2) Adjustable Wave Mode : Pulse mode and constant wave modes are
> now selectable. Laser's default wave mode is pulse mode.
> 
> 3) Secure Lock/Unlock Mode : The laser can now be locked and
> unlocked electronically to prevent unauthorized usage. Laser's
> default secure mode is locked mode.
> 
> 4) Training Lens : A replaceable training lens will be installed on
> each laser that reduces the power output by 80% to prevent
> accidents for new users. Once training is completed, user may replace
> the training lens with the included standard lens for maximum power.
> 
> Because our customers' safety and well-being is our highest
> concern, we feel it is our social responsibility to implement these
> features free of charge. This enables new users as well as
> experienced users to use our products with extra protection.
> 
> As one of the world's leading laser manufacturers, we feel as
> passionately about our customer's safety as advancing laser
> technology and paving the path towards the future.
> 
> We expect to begin shipments of the new S3 Arctic by July 15th,
> 2010, in 2 weeks time.
> 
> If for professional reasons you would like to receive the original,
> non-upgraded model with less functionality, please provide the
> following information with your order number to
> *[link removed - DM51]*
> 
> 1) Scanned government-issued photo ID card
> 2) Certificate of professional requirement that matches name on
> above ID card (IE: Law Enforcement, Scientific, Medical, Military
> license)
> 
> Thank you again for your patience and we look forward to serving
> you again soon.
> 
> P.S. Please disregard this email if you are not a S3 Arctic
> purchaser. Stay tuned for more important news and offers from Wicked Lasers.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> *[details removed - DM51]*


----------



## StarHalo

That's a lot of failsafes; the laser starts out locked AND low power AND pulse modulated AND lens-reduced.. I'm not sure what else you could do to protect the end user..


----------



## ejot

This is an exciting update. I don't have that email yet.... :shrug::sweat:

What do I do now? Low power modes seem like a great addition, but I kinda want an on/off version too.

edit: WHOOPS I suppose I don't have a certificate of professional requirement. Although I could use this at work... :thinking::naughty:




StarHalo said:


> That's a lot of failsafes; the laser starts out locked AND low power AND pulse modulated AND lens-reduced.. I'm not sure what else you could do to protect the end user..


Three fail-safes or three hundred.... you can't protect the end users from their own stupidity, er, or "igorance".


----------



## PhotonWrangler

*Re: Blindness*

Caution: if you provide a scanned driver's license as an ID, and your ID has your SSN on it, I strongly recommend blurring out at least six of the nine digits of the number before sending it to _anyone_, not just W/L. There are very few agencies that have the legal right to require your full SSN.


----------



## wyager

*Re: Blindness*



Apollo Cree said:


> Try reading before posting next time.
> 
> I agree that it might cause a pinhole burn in your retina. I don't see any effect that would cause intense light on one spot on the retina to spread out and cause heating across the whole of the retina. Even if you intensely heat up one small section of the retina for a very short period of time, I see no mechanism to rapidly spread the heat over the whole retina.
> 
> I'm an engineer and do understand what a watt is, how much heat it generates, and how thermodynamics and heat flow works.
> 
> Unless the fluid in your eye is liquid helium, it's not some sort of heat superconductor that's going to instantly spread the heat over the whole retina. Heat will flow outward in three dimensions through the tissue of your eye and the temperature will drop rapidly from the pinpoint spot heated by the laser.
> 
> I've seen no indication that a few hundred mW will instantly cause blindness over the whole visual field. Yes, it may cause a pinhole burn in the retina.
> 
> Remember, they use lasers all the time to reattach retinas or do other things in the eye. It burns a tiny spot on the retina, it doesn't magically spread over the whole retina and burn it. Yes, it may cause a small blind spot where the laser hits. It's like spot welding on the retina.
> 
> Remember, I said it might damage the retina and leave a blind spot, so no, thanks, I'm not going to be willing to burn holes in my retina to prove you wrong. You're welcome to try and pop your own eyeballs if you want to. Buy a laser, get some cow eyeballs, and have fun. They won't pop with a few seconds of exposure.
> 
> As far as something going pop, try reading again. Turning 0.14 milligrams of water into steam is not going to make your eyeball pop.
> 
> However, after a little thought, I realize you might be able to blind the whole eye if you hit the optic nerve head and burned the head of the optic nerve. However, that's a very tiny target to hit. I suspect it would be hard to do that much damage that quickly. There were also some military laser rangefinders that were known to rupture blood vessels in the eye and cause blindness by filling the eye with blood. I believe they were very high power infrared lasers, though.
> 
> Once again, in case you're STILL not reading what's posted here, *It's a really BAD idea to point one of these into your eye or use one without proper eye protection.* I think it's entirely possible to almost instantly end up with blindness in a small spot of your visual field, if not worse. Picture it like when a camera flash leaves a blind spot in your vision, but it NEVER goes away.
> 
> I'll go further and say it's a bad idea for any of us "normal" people to use one of these 1 W lasers at all. Entirely too much chance to accidentally get a reflection off of something and damage someone's vision.
> 
> As mom said, "It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."



I read your whole post. I thought I made it very clear in mine that the whole eye doesn't need to be heated... just a very small fraction of it. THE WHOLE RETINA IS DESTROYED at these powers. I'm not an ophthalmologist, I don't know the mechanisms through which it is destroyed but the fact is in a human eye exposure to a small part results in destruction of a lot more. And as for the pop-I never suggested your eye would physically pop-it's well known among laserists that destruction of retinal cells not only causes blindness, but a loud popping noise perceivable only to the person who just lost an eye. Once again, I'm not sure as to the mechanisms but this kind of violent stimulation manifests itself as a sound. And you must keep in mind the eye is NOT made of liquid helium, just as you said. Poor thermal conductivity in human tissue means that all of that heat stays in one small area rather than harmlessly dissipating throughout the whole eyeball. Even in relatively heat conductive mediums like water, if you put a piece of electric tape in a glass of water and shine a laser at the bottom of the tape, the water will boil. If the heat was distributed, you'd get a practically nonexistent increase in heat. But nonetheless, you still see boiling.


----------



## Apollo Cree

*Re: Blindness*



wyager said:


> I read your whole post. I thought I made it very clear in mine that the whole eye doesn't need to be heated... just a very small fraction of it. THE WHOLE RETINA IS DESTROYED at these powers.



Well, normally, I'd say you don't know what you're talking about, but SINCE YOU TYPED IN ALL CAPS, it must be true. 

Sorry, but you still have no idea what you're talking about. 

However, it's a really bad idea to shine one of these things into anyone's eyes. Some damage to vision is likely. 

As for boiling, remember, 1 watt laser, 1/4 of a second.


----------



## Isak Hawk

Well, this lasers aperture is 1.5mm. That's about as wide as the entire pupil in a lighted room. So even at extremely close range the beam is wide enough to cover everything it needs to make you 100% blind (in one eye anyway). After just 25 meters the beam will be wide enough to cover your entire eyeball, but still powerful enough to make you permanently blind in 1/100th of a second (I think the blink reflex is .25 seconds? ) So yeah, total blindness is what you're looking at with this thing, not a small "black spot"

The lasers they use for eye surgery are focused to an incredibly small dot size, and are running at much, much less power than this thing.


----------



## SmurfTacular

I think we can agree that it is bad to get this thing into your eyes. Whether not it is permanent is beyond me, and probably, beyond everyone here.

Anyway, I have had a 500mW green pointed at my face from about 400ft and I received no permanent damage (that I know of). It was a Viasho so it was IR filtered. I had it on a tripod and my dumbass friends thought it'd be funny to point it at me. Luckily this laser has quite the divergence.

Also I have always wondered, is there a difference between getting lased at night time or being lased at day time, as far as damages to your eyes go.





Isak Hawk said:


> The lasers they use for eye surgery are focused to an incredibly small dot size, and are running at much, much less power than this thing.





Really? I thought they where 50 Watts of Infra Red.


----------



## SmurfTacular

double post


----------



## Isak Hawk

SmurfTacular said:


> Really? I thought they where 50 Watts of Infra Red.



50 Watts!?!? Are you sure? wow 

This wikipedia article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LASIK ) talks about nanoseconds and femtoseconds of exposure though, which is much less than the 1/100th and 1/4 seconds we were talking about. And like I said, I'm sure they are focused to a tiny dot, instead of flooding the eye like the arctic would.


----------



## SmurfTacular

No, I'm not sure! Im not a doctor .

Im basing that on the fact that most industrial lasers of all kind are 50W IR lasers. The more I think about it, the more silly it seems of using a 50W IR laser millimeter away from somebody's eye. Probably not even close to 50W.


----------



## Isak Hawk

Also, it looks like they actually use UV lasers (193nm). This article says UV is largely absorbed by the cornea and lens: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety

So, those lasers are probably used specifically not to damage the retina.


----------



## jellydonut

PhotonWrangler said:


> W/L is apparently in trouble with George Lucas over the whole Lightsaber thing...


Haha, a cease and desist to a Chinese company.. Good luck with that I say.:fail:


----------



## Isak Hawk

jellydonut said:


> Haha, a cease and desist to a Chinese company.. Good luck with that I say.:fail:





Also, the only ones calling it a lightsaber are the news and sites like gizmodo. Not once has wicked said anything like that. And while it does kind of look like a lightsaber, the same can be said for a lot of portable lasers and even many flashlights.


----------



## AnAppleSnail

Isak Hawk said:


> Well, this lasers aperture is 1.5mm. That's about as wide as the entire pupil in a lighted room.





Isak Hawk said:


> I'm sure they are focused to a tiny dot, instead of flooding the eye like the arctic would.



I dunno, when I look at bulb filament, which is at least 1.5mm long and nearly 1.5mm wide (due to the spiraling), it doesn't 'fill my entire pupil' in any way. It's a very bright line in my vision. Given what little I know about the retina, this means that my eyes focused on the filament MUST be focusing the light onto a very small part of my retina. Deliberately defocusing my eyes can make a point source of light appear large and fuzzy - so in some situations you could have a light source you aren't focused on fill your retina - but if you are focused on it then it will appear to be its apparent size - by definition of the apparent size!

The blue laser won't have much effect on the lens and jelly of the eye - they use IR (oops, UV) lasers in surgery because the eyes are, unsurprisingly, nearly transparent to visible light. As long as you aren't focused on the bridge of your nose, the WL laser, like any other small source, will appear to be a point because it is focused by your eye onto a small part of the retina. If your eye didn't focus small things onto small parts of the retina, we wouldn't be able to see very well at all.


Lawsuit: In July 2001, LucasArts sued a medical company for calling a laser-guided device a Light Saber. LucasArts defends their copyright of the name "Lightsaber," and apparently things similar to it. But only reviewers have called the WL device a "lightsaber," I suspect WL knew of the pitfalls of using the Jedi weapon without having The Force. It's surprising though, how many unlicensed things are being sold on eBay and so on with the name 'Lightsaber.' I guess LucasArts did the math and figured out how much money WL will make from this. I can't find a particular lightsaber that the Arctic Pro is a copy of.

The article describing it "designed to look like a lightsaber from Star Wars." But I wasn't aware that any spiffy-looking cylinder (even one that emits light!) was an "Infringing device." Look out custom CPF makers, George might decide he wants to sample your work for free. Don't make 'em TOO nifty.







Who was it who made the giant-lens light with a 3 mRad divergence recently? It had about half a meter between the LED and the lens. Look out!


----------



## wyager

*Re: Blindness*



Apollo Cree said:


> Well, normally, I'd say you don't know what you're talking about, but SINCE YOU TYPED IN ALL CAPS, it must be true.
> 
> Sorry, but you still have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> However, it's a really bad idea to shine one of these things into anyone's eyes. Some damage to vision is likely.
> 
> As for boiling, remember, 1 watt laser, 1/4 of a second.


Alright, you know what? I'm tired of arguing with you. You've got your head up your butt, and refuse to realize some very simple medical truths because some basic math that only applies to general situations appears to say otherwise... And as for boiling, watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLO9NqE4Jxs . Oh look, the water's boiling in a small area even though the laser's only putting out enough energy to heat the whole glass a fraction of a degree! And imagine that, water probably has much better thermal conductivity than protein-filled vitreous humor... oo: big surprise, looks like a one watt laser has no problem boiling a small area, like the cornea!


----------



## StarHalo

Found on YouTube; *1W 445nm Blue Laser Burning Tests*: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__5CpKlr4-4

Features electrical tape, leather, wood, matches, an LED, some plastic. If you doubt that a 1W laser can really do much in the way of burning things, you'll definitely want to see this..


----------



## SmurfTacular

StarHalo said:


> Found on YouTube; *1W 445nm Blue Laser Burning Tests*: http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=__5CpKlr4-4&feature=related
> 
> Features electrical tape, leather, wood, matches, an LED, some plastic. If you doubt that a 1W laser can really do much in the way of burning things, you'll definitely want to see this..



^ That link is just taking you to YouTube.


----------



## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Blindness*



wyager said:


> Alright, you know what? I'm tired of arguing with you. You've got your head up your butt, and refuse to realize some very simple medical truths because some basic math that only applies to general situations appears to say otherwise... And as for boiling, watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLO9NqE4Jxs . Oh look, the water's boiling in a small area even though the laser's only putting out enough energy to heat the whole glass a fraction of a degree! And imagine that, water probably has much better thermal conductivity than protein-filled vitreous humor... oo: big surprise, looks like a one watt laser has no problem boiling a small area, like the cornea!



I don't want to argue, and I am concerned about laser safety. But if the eye's lens is designed to focus things onto the retina, it seems like a small apparent source - no matter how much of the pupil it illuminates - will resolve to a very small area of the retina. For example, a lightbulb filament illuminates my entire pupil quite uniformly. If the eye's lens didn't focus small things to small areas on the retina, it seems like we would be absolutely unable to see.

However, there is a mechanism that causes widespread retinal damage, and it seems to be similar to what you were talking about. WickedLasers acknowledges this type of damage, although I think they should emphasize it further. The energy from the laser, concentrated to a tiny point on the retina, can produce a pulse of pressure (some report hearing it as a _pop!_) that permanently damages a large area of the retina. Apollo Cree is right that neither the whole eye nor retinal surface are heated much, but that's not needed to damage the whole retina. I haven't been able to find an energy threshold leading to acoustic damage, but lasers in near-IR and visible light are of the right frequencies. UV light would mainly denature the cornea.


----------



## StarHalo

SmurfTacular said:


> ^ That link is just taking you to YouTube.



lol, it works in Firefox, but IE loads the video then goes to the home screen..

Here's the correct-for-everybody link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__5CpKlr4-4


----------



## Juggernaut

1) Adjustable Power Mode : Low power and high power modes are now
selectable. Laser's default power mode is low power mode. 




> That’s cool, I don’t mind that much:shrug:.



2) Adjustable Wave Mode : Pulse mode and constant wave modes are
now selectable. Laser's default wave mode is pulse mode.




> What does this mean? Like momentary mode and constant on:thinking:?



3) Secure Lock/Unlock Mode : The laser can now be locked and
unlocked electronically to prevent unauthorized usage. Laser's
default secure mode is locked mode.




> How do you electronically lock something? What do we have to like press the same button in some sort of cryptic pattern every time we need to use this thing? That will get very annoying very fast!



4) Training Lens : A replaceable training lens will be installed on
each laser that reduces the power output by 80% to prevent
accidents for new users. Once training is completed, user may replace
the training lens with the included standard lens for maximum power.




> This better not be like an internal lens we have to replace, or any thing technical, I’m not buying an assembly required product, I hope it’s just a simple lens cap on the end, or like the lens in a flashlight secured by the bezel:thumbsup:.





>




Because our customers' safety and well-being is our highest
concern, we feel it is our social responsibility to implement these
features free of charge. This enables new users as well as
experienced users to use our products with extra protection.

As one of the world's leading laser manufacturers, we feel as
passionately about our customer's safety as advancing laser
technology and paving the path towards the future.

We expect to begin shipments of the new S3 Arctic by July 15th,
2010, in 2 weeks time.




> This isn’t that big of a deal, but if this thing doesn’t have memory and we have to do some sort of cryptic button pushing, change to high mode, change to constant on mode-EVERY TIMER we want to turn this on it will really suck:hairpull:!


----------



## wyager

BTW wicked's new "pulsed mode" is only at 6 hertz- WTF?


----------



## ejot

*Re: Blindness*



AnAppleSnail said:


> I don't want to argue, and I am concerned about laser safety. But if the eye's lens is designed to focus things onto the retina, it seems like a small apparent source - no matter how much of the pupil it illuminates - will resolve to a very small area of the retina. For example, a lightbulb filament illuminates my entire pupil quite uniformly. If the eye's lens didn't focus small things to small areas on the retina, it seems like we would be absolutely unable to see.
> 
> However, there is a mechanism that causes widespread retinal damage, and it seems to be similar to what you were talking about. WickedLasers acknowledges this type of damage, although I think they should emphasize it further. The energy from the laser, concentrated to a tiny point on the retina, can produce a pulse of pressure (some report hearing it as a _pop!_) that permanently damages a large area of the retina. Apollo Cree is right that neither the whole eye nor retinal surface are heated much, but that's not needed to damage the whole retina. I haven't been able to find an energy threshold leading to acoustic damage, but lasers in near-IR and visible light are of the right frequencies. UV light would mainly denature the cornea.


 
Very nicely put, thank you for clarifying that purely thermal effects are not the sole contributor to retinal damage. The photoacoustic component is probably the dominant damage mechanism in this case, likely involving optic inertial cavitation. Essentially, the incident energy forms small bubbles that violently collapse, yielding highly localized areas of extreme temp and pressure (potentially thousands of degrees C and thousands of psi's over a very small area, and for a very short time). 

Cavitation damage creates nucleation sites for more bubbles, creating more cavitation damage, creating more bubbles, creating more damage..... I'm speculating here, but I suspect that is part of the reason why a small but intense projection onto the retina can end up destroying the entire thing. Likely it's also the source of the reported "pop". 

Google image "cavitation damage" to see what it can do to poorly designed mechanical systems. We actually _exploit_ a similar effect in the semiconductor industry to clean wafers, in fact I just finished designing such a system.


----------



## wyager

*Re: Blindness*



ejot said:


> Very nicely put, thank you for clarifying that purely thermal effects are not the sole contributor to retinal damage. The photoacoustic component is probably the dominant damage mechanism in this case, likely involving optic inertial cavitation. Essentially, the incident energy forms small bubbles that violently collapse, yielding highly localized areas of extreme temp and pressure (potentially thousands of degrees C and thousands of psi's over a very small area, and for a very short time).
> 
> Cavitation damage creates nucleation sites for more bubbles, creating more cavitation damage, creating more bubbles, creating more damage..... I'm speculating here, but I suspect that is part of the reason why a small but intense projection onto the retina can end up destroying the entire thing. Likely it's also the source of the reported "pop".
> 
> Google image "cavitation damage" to see what it can do to poorly designed mechanical systems. We actually _exploit_ a similar effect in the semiconductor industry to clean wafers, in fact I just finished designing such a system.



Very cool. I wasn't aware of the extremity of this effect, it sounds a lot worse than simple thermal damage.


----------



## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Blindness*



wyager said:


> Very cool. I wasn't aware of the extremity of this effect, it sounds a lot worse than simple thermal damage.



Research I've found suggest that acoustic effects seem to be dominate with short exposures around 10 microseconds - a quick sweep of the beam, for example. Rockwell Laser Industries' data suggests that with longer exposures the other damage types dominate. But once your retina exploded, I don't think you have as much to worry about until laser drilling starts.

Considering what dinky exposures have lead to injury in industrial and laboratory conditions, I can understand the reasoning of those who think that this laser is a very very bad idea - if I'm reading this research right, then a momentary direct exposure can cause permanent broad retinal damage, and momentary reflections permanent blind spots. One starts to wonder if wearing blue goggles constantly is going to be the only safe way through the next year. I hope buyers are responsible with this.


----------



## SmurfTacular

*Re: Blindness*

The more I read about this laser, the less fun you can have with it. I want a laser where I don't have to be constantly worrying if theres any people in the area where i'm shining it at, or if theres any reflective surfaces.

Why don't they release a 50mW version of this? Maybe in the form of a pen that takes two AAA.


----------



## R11GS

*Re: Blindness*



SmurfTacular said:


> The more I read about this laser, the less fun you can have with it. I want a laser where I don't have to be constantly worrying if theres any people in the area where i'm shining it at, or if theres any reflective surfaces.
> 
> Why don't they release a 50mW version of this? Maybe in the form of a pen that takes two AAA.



Fun is a relative term but IMO you should not use this indoors (at full power) if there is anyone present without eye protection and it should only be used outdoors if it never strikes any objects in the near field......

But that's just me...


----------



## wyager

*Re: Blindness*



SmurfTacular said:


> The more I read about this laser, the less fun you can have with it. I want a laser where I don't have to be constantly worrying if theres any people in the area where i'm shining it at, or if theres any reflective surfaces.
> 
> Why don't they release a 50mW version of this? Maybe in the form of a pen that takes two AAA.



If you want low power, use the training lens+low power mode. And on top of that, these things won't even lase below 250mA, which means nothing below 100mW or so.


----------



## ejot

Juggernaut said:


> How do you electronically lock something? What do we have to like press the same button in some sort of cryptic pattern every time we need to use this thing? That will get very annoying very fast!


 
Looks like you nailed it. Now on the site: 



WickedLasers said:


> The SmartSwitch™ prevents accidental and unauthorized activation of the laser by requiring a short sequence of clicks and click-holds to unlock the laser. ... Once the user is ready to experience maximum 100% power, it takes only 2 clicks to change the mode and mere seconds to replace the lens.


 
It always turns on at 6Hz/50% duty cycle of the LOW mode. No memory. I like having the option of low modes, but not being able to turn it on at full power? 


:shakehead :thumbsdow :fail::fail: :eeksign:  :eeew::hairpull:


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Blindness*



SmurfTacular said:


> The more I read about this laser, the less fun you can have with it. I want a laser where I don't have to be constantly worrying if theres any people in the area where i'm shining it at, or if theres any reflective surfaces.



I can't use my HID light indoors (or in a suburban area for that matter), but that actually makes it more fun..



ejot said:


> It always turns on at 6Hz/50% duty cycle of the LOW mode. No memory. I like having the option of low modes, but not being able to turn it on at full power?



I'd give it a couple of weeks, then there'll be instructions/links here on how to disable all the safeties and run it at ~2W...


----------



## wyager

you guys realize you don't HAVE to get the safety features, right? 
You can send them your ID and get the original laser.


----------



## ejot

StarHalo said:


> I'd give it a couple of weeks, then there'll be instructions/links here on how to disable all the safeties and run it at ~2W...


Excellent, we decided that extra warranty I paid for wasn't very good anyway, right? :lolsign:





wyager said:


> you guys realize you don't HAVE to get the safety features, right?
> You can send them your ID and get the original laser.


 
I don't think it's that easy though, don't they mean you have to provide both of the following:
_1) Scanned government-issued photo ID card_
_2) Certificate of professional requirement that matches name on_
_above ID card (IE: Law Enforcement, Scientific, Medical, Military_
_license)_ 

I'm not exactly clear what #2 means or who issues these certificates. I do have a legitimate scientific/professional use for this. Can I get the original one?

And I *still *haven't gotten this email announcing this. :thinking:


----------



## wyager

Wicked probably doesn't even really care if you have a license or not! Just send them an email...


----------



## ejot

I'm still really conflicted on this. Low power modes would be nice, but the implementation is awful. Actually, I think the new features make this _more_ dangerous. That probably sounds absurd but hear me out. 


When you're working with a very high power laser, you need to get yourself into a very focused state where you're always aware of _exactly_ what the beam is doing. It has to be first and foremost on your mind, even in a controlled optics-table setting. You may be doing research, but when you're executing a maneuver with the laser, you don't think about research. You focus on that operation only. Now on the Spyder, adding funny sequences of necessary clicks, taps, tap-holds, tap-dances, rub-belly-and-pat head motions just to turn on the thing, that takes away from your concentration on safety. 


If you think that kind of "simple" multitasking thought is intuitive and natural, ... well, it's usually not. Look at cell/texting while driving statistics. Try counting from 1 to 10 aloud while writing down a line you know from heart. The brain - just doesn't do two things at the exact same time very well. Think about the last awesome programmable light you ordered and excitedly tore into? How did you figure out the UI? Maybe you read a little bit and then grabbed the light and started tooling around with it: 
"Let's see here... triple click ... ah crap, didn't click fast enough. OK, let's do it again. Yup, got it, is that the lowest low? I think so... sweeeet."


Do you want to be "learning" or "feeling out" your laser's UI the first time you double click to power up a 1W laser beam? 


:shakehead




I'm not done yet. 




The other problem with baby-proofing this sucker is the complacency it engenders: A fake sense that the danger is removed. Now it is more likely that people will carelessly grab the laser and start walking down the street, lighting up street signs with their "harmless" 2mW, slightly flickery, large blue dot. And you know how people are. Your buddy's unimpressed ... "I thought it could set stuff on fire?" .... "Oh heck yes, here hold my beer and watch THIS!" (Okay I stole that line from Abtomat's opinion of recent SureFire models). 

Imagine a gun where, to shoot it, you have to pull lightly on the trigger three times within 2sec, then pull and hold for >2.5sec, release, and it's ready to go. Except it only fires the first bullet at 5% of normal velocity. On the second shot, if you want full velocity, you double tap the trigger again. 

Admittedly not a perfect analogy; a gun's role in self-defense precludes such operation first and foremost. But I submit that MUCH of the ridiculousness in the above example is exactly applicable to this laser. Both are extremely dangerous, therefore the firing mechanism is a poor platform for the interface. 



This is a bad move.



And now I'm done.


----------



## Juggernaut

ejot said:


> I'm still really conflicted on this. Low power modes would be nice, but the implementation is awful. Actually, I think the new features make this _more_ dangerous. That probably sounds absurd but hear me out.
> 
> 
> When you're working with a very high power laser, you need to get yourself into a very focused state where you're always aware of _exactly_ what the beam is doing. It has to be first and foremost on your mind, even in a controlled optics-table setting. You may be doing research, but when you're executing a maneuver with the laser, you don't think about research. You focus on that operation only. Now on the Spyder, adding funny sequences of necessary clicks, taps, tap-holds, tap-dances, rub-belly-and-pat head motions just to turn on the thing, that takes away from your concentration on safety.
> 
> 
> If you think that kind of "simple" multitasking thought is intuitive and natural, ... well, it's usually not. Look at cell/texting while driving statistics. Try counting from 1 to 10 aloud while writing down a line you know from heart. The brain - just doesn't do two things at the exact same time very well. Think about the last awesome programmable light you ordered and excitedly tore into? How did you figure out the UI? Maybe you read a little bit and then grabbed the light and started tooling around with it:
> "Let's see here... triple click ... ah crap, didn't click fast enough. OK, let's do it again. Yup, got it, is that the lowest low? I think so... sweeeet."
> 
> 
> Do you want to be "learning" or "feeling out" your laser's UI the first time you double click to power up a 1W laser beam?
> 
> 
> :shakehead
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not done yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The other problem with baby-proofing this sucker is the complacency it engenders: A fake sense that the danger is removed. Now it is more likely that people will carelessly grab the laser and start walking down the street, lighting up street signs with their "harmless" 2mW, slightly flickery, large blue dot. And you know how people are. Your buddy's unimpressed ... "I thought it could set stuff on fire?" .... "Oh heck yes, here hold my beer and watch THIS!" (Okay I stole that line from Abtomat's opinion of recent SureFire models).
> 
> Imagine a gun where, to shoot it, you have to pull lightly on the trigger three times within 2sec, then pull and hold for >2.5sec, release, and it's ready to go. Except it only fires the first bullet at 5% of normal velocity. On the second shot, if you want full velocity, you double tap the trigger again.
> 
> Admittedly not a perfect analogy; a gun's role in self-defense precludes such operation first and foremost. But I submit that MUCH of the ridiculousness in the above example is exactly applicable to this laser. Both are extremely dangerous, therefore the firing mechanism is a poor platform for the interface.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a bad move.
> 
> 
> 
> And now I'm done.


 

I was thinking the exact same thing, but didn’t bother posting because I didn’t think anyone else would understand, you summed this up perfectly! Some time to safe is just that, making things more complicated then they need to be = danger! I have been on the fire range before and seen guys pull the trigger = nothing happens they turn around with the gun pointing at me and ask their buddy how to turn off the safety! I’m honestly going to ask them to give me a “none safety version“, just because it frightens me! Ha I actually thought people were blowing this thing out of proportion with it’s danger, but this actually terrifies me more then the concept of a 1 watt laser, I can no longer even let my friends try it themselves in fear of the “fire range safety turnaround” just to much going on at once will be the problem:shakehead. 

Anyways, I asked earlier and no one commented, I’ll submit a request for a safety less version but I need to know how old do you have to be to buy this? I was going to give them my FID card “bit of demonstration of mature use of dangerous objects.


----------



## AJ_Dual

IMO, all the new "safety features" might help with getting an FDA Accession number. Assuming WL cares, or just does not fake one...

However, I strongly suspect they're having heat and duty cycle problems with any driver that's affordable to them in the economy of scale that they need. Running at 1W in CW is going to leave them with a problem with all those people who buy the extended two year warranty. 

WL is right on the brink with the Arctic. Intentionally or not, they've bet the whole company on this. 

Not telling anyone this is a pre-order. 

FDA Accession number status in question.

LOTS of press activity which may put US Customs (and other nations) on notice. 

WL's refund plus policy for intercepted lasers.

The possibility of diode death at the stated specs. 

Credit card/Worldpay/Bank fines for chargebacks and disputes if FUD reaches critical and people bail on their orders faster than WL can refund them. 

Damn I wanted one of these. However, now I think I'll wait for the diodes to trickle down to lesser known makers who aren't on the radar of the press, the .gov, or the masses who read Gizmodo...like O-Like, Novalasers etc.


----------



## ejot

Great posts. AJ you hit the nail on the head on all those points, I haven't even gotten into that. :sigh:

Somehow I'm still hopeful. And very patient.


----------



## wyager

AJ-the thing about accession numbers is that if wicked applies the day they ship, the FDA has to let all those lasers in. It's an innocent until proven guilty type thing, if you apply for an accession number it's fine to import UNTIL they evaluate the product and say it's NOT okay. That should give wicked a significant period when they can ship unhindered.


----------



## SmurfTacular

AJ_Dual said:


> IMO, all the new "safety features" might help with getting an FDA Accession number. Assuming WL cares, or just does not fake one...



I agree, WL could care less about safety features if it weren't for the FDA and FAA. As long as they could sell more lasers and make more money.

They did it for legality purposes.


----------



## DM51

*Re: Blindness*



SmurfTacular said:


> I just got an email from WL...


I received a message from a member who was concerned that SmurfTacular's post (#248) might be in contravention of Rule 12, which forbids the posting of PMs and other private correspondence. I'll clear this up now, as it is an important point for members to understand.

The answer is that SmurfTacular did NOT break the rule. The email he received from WL was a safety announcement for circulation to all customers. It was therefore not in any sense a private communication. I deleted the links to WL in the email as these were unnecessary, but it was perfectly in order for the remainder of the email to be quoted.

We won't enter into a further discussion of this point here; the purpose of this post is purely to clear up this single issue, not to start a debate on the matter.


----------



## jellydonut

AJ_Dual said:


> Damn I wanted one of these. However, now I think I'll wait for the diodes to trickle down to lesser known makers who aren't on the radar of the press, the .gov, or the masses who read Gizmodo...like O-Like, Novalasers etc.


It would seem Novalasers already has

http://www.novalasers.com/NOVAstore/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=2

They make the same claims WL does, down to 'world's most compact', even.:duh2: It does look more 'professional' than WL's lightsaber clone.


----------



## Isak Hawk

jellydonut said:


> It would seem Novalasers already has
> 
> http://www.novalasers.com/NOVAstore/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=2
> 
> They make the same claims WL does, down to 'world's most compact', even.:duh2: It does look more 'professional' than WL's lightsaber clone.



I think they decided not to make the atlantis after all, stating it was too dangerous or something... Not sure why it's still on their website, but if you click on it it just says "No products have been assigned to this category" 

EDIT: here's the official statement:



> After consulting with laser users as well as experts in the field of laser applications and safety we have decided to suspend production on the Atlantis-1 445nm <1W laser and will not be carrying this product at this time. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.
> 
> Please note that we do not regularly monitor the forums and any questions should be sent to [link removed]
> 
> Best Regards,
> Magdalena Gudzowska
> NOVALasers Inc.


----------



## jellydonut

Oh - I just assumed it was so new they hadn't gotten to making a page for it.

That sucks.:scowl:

Maybe someone should lecture them on the applications of fertilizer+diesel, or gasoline in a glass bottle with a rag stuck in it, before they knee-jerk at powerful lasers.

At this rate I'll have to buy the projector myself.


----------



## senecaripple

novalaser probably dropped or suspended the atlantis because of the problems wl is experiencing. nor could they compete with wl at that price. they'll wait and see how wl will handle this sale first before they commit.


----------



## wyager

jellydonut said:


> At this rate I'll have to buy the projector myself.


If you really want it now, make it yourself. You don't even have to buy the whole projector  It's cheaper as well, and with no chance of legal issues. $35 for a diode, $23 for a driver, $18 for a good AW battery, $41 for a basic host, $10 for a lens, $2 for an aixiz module, $8 for goggles. Factor in about $10 shipping and you're looking at around $150. Keep in mind these are the things I bought minus a few optional features. Plus you can set it to any power level you want below about 1300mW. Also, imagine how cheap wicked can make these things with mass production and bulk buying if we can make them cheaper than they're selling them.


----------



## StarHalo

wyager said:


> imagine how cheap wicked can make these things with mass production and bulk buying if we can make them cheaper than they're selling them.



Imagine how much profit there would be in it for a CPFer willing to build some and sell them here slightly cheaper than Wicked and with no safety features..


----------



## jellydonut

wyager said:


> If you really want it now, make it yourself. You don't even have to buy the whole projector  It's cheaper as well, and with no chance of legal issues. $35 for a diode, $23 for a driver, $18 for a good AW battery, $41 for a basic host, $10 for a lens, $2 for an aixiz module, $8 for goggles. Factor in about $10 shipping and you're looking at around $150. Keep in mind these are the things I bought minus a few optional features. Plus you can set it to any power level you want below about 1300mW. Also, imagine how cheap wicked can make these things with mass production and bulk buying if we can make them cheaper than they're selling them.


Where on earth did you find the diodes for sale?:naughty:


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

If only somebody somewhere made kits where all you have to do is provide battery and diode :laughing:

but yeah, I'm planning on making my own with at least two output levels.


----------



## Illum

> if someone hits me with a laser don't blame me for responding as if that laser was mounted on a weapon



if it goes down to this, then so be it:candle:


----------



## StarHalo

Illum said:


> if it goes down to this, then so be it:candle:



"There is a flip side to that coin.."


----------



## wyager

jellydonut said:


> Where on earth did you find the diodes for sale?:naughty:


Laserpointerforums. BTW the $35 price is for a group buy, and will take a lot longer. If you want it now buy it direct for $50. I bought mine from hakzaw1, it got here in two days. It's really simple if you know how to solder... and you can basically buy it assembled for a few extra bucks.


----------



## AJ_Dual

wyager said:


> AJ-the thing about accession numbers is that if wicked applies the day they ship, the FDA has to let all those lasers in. It's an innocent until proven guilty type thing, if you apply for an accession number it's fine to import UNTIL they evaluate the product and say it's NOT okay. That should give wicked a significant period when they can ship unhindered.



Well, someone on LPF has had correspondence with the FDA and they state they are aware of WL's newest product, they don't have an Accession number the one they're claiming is false.

Also it's unclear what the status of an Accession number application would be if it's from a company that's on the import watch list, and is flouting the import regs on all their other products at the exact same time. 

I don't know the rules for sure but I find it difficult to believe that the FDA would give them an Accession number with all the other ongoing violations.


----------



## wyager

good point AJ... I have no idea how being red-flagged affects accession protocols. And do digital "safety keys" count as safety keys to the FDA?


----------



## dieselducy

SOMETHING WEIRD!! the pending charge from WL on my credit card disappeared. i wonder what that means??


----------



## wyager

Have you guys seen the new pics from wicked? They removed the tailcap button and now they have a little green button up near the front.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Just noticed that today. I wonder what that means...


----------



## Illum

it just means that we paid our money, but the "final product" is still a prototype thats being continuously modified, by the time we receive what we bought it will have looked nothing like the picture it originally represented


----------



## Juggernaut

You guys are reporting a decline in out put with these lasers, due to the diode degrading over time. What causes that? Is it from over heating? Because if it is then why doesn’t the diodes in the projector degrade in a similar fashion? I would figure 24 of these laser diodes jammed into one housing will have less capability to dispense heat then a single one in a huge aluminum host. Or is it something else:shrug:?


----------



## Illum

if conventional lasers can sustain power over time and this thing can't using the same design...then it could be a thermal bottleneck somewhere thats causing the laser emitter to saturate in heat before the outer barrel could conduct. if so then the laser's life would be really short lived


----------



## alfiechip

Hello Everyone,

I was just wondering if anyone on here has received this laser. I ordered one almost a month ago & haven't even received a confirmation e-mail from WL that my order has been shipped. I was able to get through to them yesterday via phone & the lady I spoke with said they would be shipped out early this week.

Just wondering if ANYONE has gotten theirs yet.

Thank you.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Early this week? That's weird, because the email I received from them last week stated that they where going to begin shipping of the 15th.


----------



## Fat Boy

I also did not recieve an email. not in junk mail either. Last week I was told that shipping would be this week.


----------



## Juggernaut

It’s funny how people think this thing is so dangerous, you want dangerous? How about this! http://www.laserglow.com/GSS 
 
2 watts of IR laser power in a hand held package! That’s scary you wouldn’t even know someone was using it near you! Well at least it’s 10x more expensive then the Arctic.


----------



## StarHalo

The story about Lucas getting in a huff about the Arctic looking too much like a Lightsaber is now the #2 featured article of the day on CNN.com: http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/gaming.gadgets/07/06/light.saber.lucas/index.html?hpt=P1&iref=NS1

Here comes the _real_ backlog for Wicked..


----------



## TheFathomlessBlue

I just read that article and came here to post the link... ahh this is getting quite entertianing. Hmm I wonder if Lucas will sue bigfoot for looking too much like Chubaka.:fail:


----------



## Juggernaut

Hasn’t the Spider series been out for awhile? “In green of course” but they haven’t changed the body very much at all, so Lucas is being pretty stupid for bringing this up now. Also I to admit all this publicity is slightly frightening me. I mean I don’t care if a company sells a cube with 20x 5 watt IR lasers which fire off each side all the time with no safety features! As long as it’s made by some obscure company only I know about. The fact that so many people are finding out about this thing through “supposed news reports” troubles me. They are doing way more harm then good, and I think they know that. Next thing we know it, some dumb kid is going to do something stupid with one of these, and guess who will be first on the scene? The same News reporters who typed the article that introduced the kid to these lasers, that other wise he would never known about! The news rooms make trouble, just so they can have something else to write about, I mean it’s their Job! If some one like Nova Laser made this, and no news agency ever found out about it, I bet there wouldn’t be a single accident. On the other hand I’m truly worried that this could go very badly when these hit the streets…. 
 
I never worry about the safety of products it’s the people using them that scares me. Just the other night at 4th of July fireworks in Boston, I counted no less then 4 high power green lasers “me included” some of the user were shining them at boats, people across the river, EVERY Thing! It worries me that these same people could have this laser next year!
 
Example: _My mother and father_: “Hey next year you’ll have that laser you bought” Me: So? Them: you should bring it here… ME: Yea right! You know how dangerous that thing is! You can’t use it in a public place! Them: Nonsense! Just be careful with it. Me: You don’t understand it’s extremely easy to blind everyone around me with it! Them: I doubt it, just don’t hit anyone with it Me: This is why it’s not a good idea normal people get their hands on it:shakehead!
 
My Sister “later when I had my low power green laser”: Hey look at the person across the river, he has one of those lasers. Me: I noticed, Her: You should shine it at him. Me: That’s not very safe I could hit him in the eyes! Her: So What!, I do that all the time with mine when I’m driving. !!!!! “She was given one by her old boyfriend” I’m glad she lost it!


----------



## SmurfTacular

You saw four people with green lasers? I was the only person in the whole crowd with one. These lasers are becoming dangerously popular. I think the FDA should impliment permits in order to use one. That way it'd be very special to have one.


----------



## Juggernaut

SmurfTacular said:


> You saw four people with green lasers? I was the only person in the whole crowd with one. These lasers are becoming dangerously popular. I think the FDA should impliment permits in order to use one. That way it'd be very special to have one.


 
Yep 4x “Including me” Me and one other, on the left river bank. One directly across from me on the other river bank. Lastly what was really crazy was either someone was on a boat out in the harbor, or on the train bridge running over the harbor, with a very high power green laser “100mw +/- ?”, I’m not to familiar with different power levels but they were approximately 307 yards away from me “via Google earth” and they shined the laser straight up and you could see the beam going up for hundreds of feet into the brightly lit city sky, remember I’m 900+ feet away he’s pointing this thing 90 degrees straight up and It was clearly visible! After waiving it around for a few seconds, I didn’t see it again, I figured he was using it “pointing at things” on the other side of the bridge so I couldn’t see. My mother pointed out that someone on a passing boat had one as well, shinning it into the water but I didn’t notice it in time to confirm this:shrug:.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Im going to have to say that laser is probably way up there in the 400mW+ range. Its hard to see the beam of a laser when you are far away. I have a 500mW Viasho and I put it on my tripod in a park at night and let my friends play with it (bad idea). I ran as far away as I could (about 100 yards) and saw the beam in the night sky. It wasn't that visible from that distance, but if you where looking for it, you could see it. Also my friends thought it was a good idea to point it right into my face, luckily from that distance the dot was the size of a basketball and (hopefully) did no damage to my eyes.


----------



## Juggernaut

400+ mw?!?! How is that possible? I know for a fact he must have been at a minimum of 300 yards because only police boats are allowed before the bridge, and all the boats other then them are behind the bridge. So he was on the bridge or on a boat past the bridge. Thus 300+ yards. How many people have laser in that power class? Are they not seriously expensive? $500+ easily last I checked. I can sort of see this being possible because some of the boats are extremely nice “small yachts and cigarette racing boats, etc.” so I figure they have the money, but it’s just crazy to think of people having such things out in public.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Well my Viasho 500mW costs about $1600, I paid $500 used. But when I tested it at that park at night there where alot of lights out (street lights, full moon, city lights etc). So maybe that pointer you saw might have been about 100mW~200mW minimum, if it was pitch black. In order to see the beam from that far away takes some serious firepower


----------



## Juggernaut

SmurfTacular said:


> if it was pitch black?


 
Nope…Middle of Boston, light pollution like crazy, you could only see 2 maybe….3 stars at max, actually one of them was a planet I think……
 
Like I figured, must have been some really rich guy on one of the fancy boats.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Yeah from all that light pollution, the person wielding that laser was packing some serious heat.


----------



## aml

I emailed my scanned ID and professional license to WL today. Gonna have them send me one of each.

I mean, assuming any of this ever actually happens.


----------



## Raccoon

Mind you that 4th of July laser pointing is particularly popular due to all the sulfur smoke in the air. This may attribute to why a mediocre powered laser appeared brighter than usual. But I agree, from 300 yards away you will need a rather powerful output in order to view the beam at that distance and at a 90 degree angle.

$500.. no, sounds more like $4,000+.

PS. Juggernaut: I don't know if anyone else has mentioned, but coloring all your posts is really obnoxious and disrespectful. It's worse than typing your entire post in caps. I speak with respect and consideration to your post count; I'm asking nicely if you please wouldn't.


----------



## Juggernaut

A bit off topic, but I’ve been typing in all “dark red” for over a year and I’m sorry you find it “obnoxious and disrespectful”, but it helps me find earlier posts in a heart beat, and is sort of my signature. It’s not blue, Lime green, yellow, or even red. I don’t think it’s very disruptive, and I don’t use it for any sinister reason. I’m sorry if in someway it offends you, but it’s just how I post.


----------



## wyager

Raccoon said:


> PS. Juggernaut: I don't know if anyone else has mentioned, but coloring all your posts is really obnoxious and disrespectful. It's worse than typing your entire post in caps. I speak with respect and consideration to your post count; I'm asking nicely if you please wouldn't.


I hardly even notice it.... I don't think it's a problem. Anyway, back on topic the people I've heard from in contact with the FDA say the arctic accession number is BS. Also, to smurftacular, permits are an AWFUL idea. Like, incredibly terrible. You'd have to be over 18 to get anything better than a 5mW red, and probably fork over a lot of cash as well. It'd kill the hobby! :thumbsdow Model rocketry used to be totally awesome then they required a permit above a certain size and now it's a bunch of lame A sized motors in these tiny cardboard pieces of crap. The same would happen to lasers, you don't regulate something to make it "special".


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found

wyager said:


> I hardly even notice it.... I don't think it's a problem. Anyway, back on topic the people I've heard from in contact with the FDA say the arctic accession number is BS. Also, to smurftacular, permits are an AWFUL idea. Like, incredibly terrible. You'd have to be over 18 to get anything better than a 5mW red, and probably fork over a lot of cash as well. It'd kill the hobby! :thumbsdow Model rocketry used to be totally awesome then they required a permit above a certain size and now it's a bunch of lame A sized motors in these tiny cardboard pieces of crap. The same would happen to lasers, you don't regulate something to make it "special".


 
Can you point out in here exactly where you addressed the concern of safety?


----------



## R11GS

When it appears as though an activity has some level of abuse/misuse that creates enough nuisance that it will become regulated it really behooves the people participating in that activity to organize and "self-regulate" before outside agencies regulate that activity for them. Outside agencies are generally very heavy-handed and do not understand or even care to understand how to do it effectively beyond just regulating the activity out of existence.

I've been involved in past activities and sports that had these issues. We formed clubs or other organizations that interfaced with the interested agencies and the product manufacturers. It's pretty amazing what can be accomplished. For very small yearly "dues" to a non-profit organization (a "club") you can afford to purchase liability insurance policies if it is beneficial and self-enforce their own "regulations" that are appropriate to prevent the problems while fostering the activity. The agencies that would regulate the activity can have the simple regulation of requiring membership with the organization in order to participate in the activity. Regional "chapters" can interface with local agencies to address their concerns.

It works.....if enough people are willing to participate, put the effort forward to organize and abide by the results of that organization. Manufacturers are often willing to put time and actual monetary resources towards some of these efforts. After all, they have a vested interest.


To be more specific to this topic....as far a as laser hobbyists, many of the people involved seem to have enough dedication to their hobby to be able to organize like this. The FDA is probably the primary agency that this organization would need to interact with although there may be other's like the FAA and local law enforcement.


There is an interesting dynamic with the "hobby" laser manufacturers being primarily China based. But they still should have an interest even if this organization was just US-based.


The time to organize is before the outside agencies decide they need to take [excessive] action. Even if just to put forward some voluntary standards for equipment and usage for discussion. This board is probably not the best place to try and organize this effort but there are others I lurk on that are and I know there are people here that hang out in some of those.


Just sayin'....


----------



## wyager

was.lost.but.now.found said:


> Can you point out in here exactly where you addressed the concern of safety?


I didn't. However, I think R11GS is pretty spot on. We need to self-regulate before lasers get banned totally. It's basically our (the responsible peoples') duty to confiscate any laser being used irresponsibly. That's not to say keep it for ourselves, but we need to make sure people are following the proper legal channels. That means if some kid is shining a 100mW green around a nightclub, you need to send it to a certified radiation inspector. A "citizen arrest" type of thing. And at this point in time it's important to teach the ideas of laser safety just like gun safety, eg. It always has batteries in it, don't point it at anything you don't want to burn, use proper safety measures or you end up dead (or blind) etc. And honestly, I think high-powered lasers are the least of our concerns in today's society. There's no way in hell lasers will ever cause as much damage as cars, American eating habits, alcohol, street drugs, etc. and people shouldn't be concerned about them more than they're concerned about death by paper cut. An extreme guess would be that wicked sold 10000 lasers, and assuming that half were bought by americans and that they even make it through customs, and that they fall in to the hands of that idiot, and that you are within ~100 yards of that idiot, and that that idiot has the laser and is using it irresponsibly is so ridiculously low it's not worth thinking about. There might be one or two isolated incidents, but that's all. [/rant]


----------



## hank

> There might be one or two isolated incidents

Your faith in humankind impresses me.

Here's an expert's opinion about this specific laser:

"... the beam is reduced to the same intensity as a 5mW laser at the aperture at a distance of about 22 meters. Outside this range the laser is not exactly safe but it's unlikely to cause instant damage.

But this is sort of faint praise - a 20+ meter danger radius is Bad News for people who're buying this without the intention of being adequately safe ....

So I'm not taking sides. I'd just like to advise that if you're interested in one of these, be aware that it's very, very dangerous and if you're a laser hobbyist you ought to treat this in the same way a skydiving hobbyist treats a parachute. I'd really prefer you not touch Class 4 lasers unless you have dedicated safety equipment and training as well as plenty of experience on Class 3R and 3B lasers."

http://scienceblogs.com/builtonfacts/2010/06/the_laser_pointer_much_beloved.php

----------------
"the retina lacks pain sensory nerves."
http://www.dermweb.com/laser/eyesafety.html


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found

wyager said:


> I didn't. However, I think R11GS is pretty spot on. We need to self-regulate before lasers get banned totally. It's basically our (the responsible peoples') duty to confiscate any laser being used irresponsibly. That's not to say keep it for ourselves, but we need to make sure people are following the proper legal channels. That means if some kid is shining a 100mW green around a nightclub, you need to send it to a certified radiation inspector. A "citizen arrest" type of thing. And at this point in time it's important to teach the ideas of laser safety just like gun safety, eg. It always has batteries in it, don't point it at anything you don't want to burn, use proper safety measures or you end up dead (or blind) etc. And honestly, I think high-powered lasers are the least of our concerns in today's society. There's no way in hell lasers will ever cause as much damage as cars, American eating habits, alcohol, street drugs, etc. and people shouldn't be concerned about them more than they're concerned about death by paper cut. An extreme guess would be that wicked sold 10000 lasers, and assuming that half were bought by americans and that they even make it through customs, and that they fall in to the hands of that idiot, and that you are within ~100 yards of that idiot, and that that idiot has the laser and is using it irresponsibly is so ridiculously low it's not worth thinking about. There might be one or two isolated incidents, but that's all. [/rant]


 
I agree that R11GS made many good points. My concerns with your post were more to the point that you seemed to justify the need for teenagers in high school to be able to own 1W class IV lasers. A car can certainly cause more damage than a 1W laser, but more respect is given to a car that what is given to lasers (by some of course).


----------



## Shiftlock

was.lost.but.now.found said:


> I agree that R11GS made many good points. My concerns with your post were more to the point that you seemed to justify the need for teenagers in high school to be able to own 1W class IV lasers. A car can certainly cause more damage than a 1W laser, but more respect is given to a car that what is given to lasers (by some of course).



Just an example of how this laser can be dangerous in the hands of someone without laser experience. I have a neighbor who knows that lasers were a hobby of mine. After hearing about the 1W Arctic, he ordered one. As I was getting out my car in my driveway yesterday, he came walking over, and started a conversation. When I asked him what he planned to do with it, he said "Just mess around." Then he told me that after he's "bored with it" he's considering launching a helium weather balloon, with the Arctic swinging from it pointing down at the ground as a way to track the balloon. Apparently these balloons can reach altitudes of over 100,000 feet. I did my best to impress on him what an absolutely horrible idea this is. I think my message sank in, but it's exactly this kind of idea by people unfamiliar with laser safety that makes such an inexpensive, high power, portable laser so freakin' dangerous.


----------



## StarHalo

Shiftlock said:


> he's considering launching a helium weather balloon, with the Arctic swinging from it pointing down at the ground as a way to track the balloon.



lol, "and then I'm going to strap some swords on my dogs and let them run around the neighborhood.."


----------



## Juggernaut

Shiftlock said:


> Then he told me that after he's "bored with it" he's considering launching a helium weather balloon, with the Arctic swinging from it pointing down at the ground as a way to track the balloon. Apparently these balloons can reach altitudes of over 100,000 feet.


 
Well it could be worse….
Might as well have been:
 
_Oh I just bought a nice taser, figured it be great for lighting cigarettes…. _
 
_I just read a great book “The Kite Runner” it gave me inspiration to go kite fighting! I built an entire kite out of 28 gage aluminum and sharpened all the edges. I’m using a roll of razor wire for the string!, can’t wait to go test it out at the public park next to the petting zoo and the orphanage this weekend, I bet everyone will want a try!_
 
Well there goes any chance of this going over well:duck:…….


----------



## senecaripple

for those who can't wait http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_...ckType=G3&aff=Y&sid=KAx20050801x13xSlickdeals

http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_...ckType=G3&aff=Y&sid=KAx20050801x13xSlickdeals


should hold you over till the real one ships.


----------



## wyager

was.lost.but.now.found said:


> I agree that R11GS made many good points. My concerns with your post were more to the point that you seemed to justify the need for teenagers in high school to be able to own 1W class IV lasers. A car can certainly cause more damage than a 1W laser, but more respect is given to a car that what is given to lasers (by some of course).


Are you implying anyone needs a handheld 1 watt 445nm laser? There are next to no uses in a lab for this wavelength, and no industrial uses for the laser. On top of that, I'm a high school student but I think I've proven my responsibility, I built my own 1W 445nm and have owned >30mW lasers since middle school.... There's no reason anyone on this site is more qualified than I am to own such a laser (unless you're CDRH certified or something ).


----------



## Raccoon

*R11GS:* In regards to forming a _club_ organization, it's not a bad idea but I see it as another form of governing regulation versus self-regulation. The organization would start off with nice rules and eventually an entry exam and member dues, then state laws would mandate that amateur laser operators be a member of said club, giving power of authority over public laser access... AND eventually the club organization is given a 3 letter title beginning with F for Federal.

Consider the FCC.


*senecaripple:* Hehe! Is K-Mart is having a _blue light_ special?

*wyager:* Looking back 20 years from now, you too will agree that you and everyone else in Highschool are immature and unpredictable. Your 20 year from now self would sooner die in a fire than allow your present self to obtain a 1W laser.

By the by, the lab uses for 445nm are innumerable. I believe this particular diode will revolutionize water purity testing, replacing 10 thousand dollar equipment with a $5 home device. But I could be wrong.


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found

Raccoon said:


> *R11GS:* In regards to forming a _club_ organization, it's not a bad idea but I see it as another form of governing regulation versus self-regulation. The organization would start off with nice rules and eventually an entry exam and member dues, then state laws would mandate that amateur laser operators be a member of said club, giving power of authority over public laser access... AND eventually the club organization is given a 3 letter title beginning with F for Federal.
> 
> Consider the FCC.
> 
> 
> *senecaripple:* Hehe! Is K-Mart is having a _blue light_ special?
> 
> *wyager:* Looking back 20 years from now, you too will agree that you and everyone else in Highschool are immature and unpredictable. Your 20 year from now self would sooner die in a fire than allow your present self to obtain a 1W laser.
> 
> By the by, the lab uses for 445nm are innumerable. I believe this particular diode will revolutionize water purity testing, replacing 10 thousand dollar equipment with a $5 home device. But I could be wrong.


 
Outstanding points, though I can't help but notice that the common theme seems to be that everyone wants some level of regulation for the product, so long as it does not apply to them.


----------



## jellydonut

What strikes me is a kind of elitism rather than some kind of fear of the product or regard for safety. 'I'd rather have licensing so that only people like me can have it and not just some random person'. I saw this on a different forum though, not here thankfully.

Disgusting to read really.


----------



## R11GS

Raccoon said:


> *R11GS:* In regards to forming a _club_ organization, it's not a bad idea but I see it as another form of governing regulation versus self-regulation. The organization would start off with nice rules and eventually an entry exam and member dues, then state laws would mandate that amateur laser operators be a member of said club, giving power of authority over public laser access... AND eventually the club organization is given a 3 letter title beginning with F for Federal.
> 
> Consider the FCC.




I'm lost as to how anyone can think a non-profit private party organization (i.e. club) can even remotely be compared to a government agency and I can't think of any other way to self-regulate which is exactly what these user organizations can accomplish. I've seen it successfully time and time again.

Consider the FCC. There are amateur radio operators that self police very well and are granted a lot of latitude in how they do that. ARRL does a lot to keep the hobby going and operators have a great deal of freedom to operate. They pretty much "own" a lot of bandwidth and can operate with a lot of power when they ahve the proper privileges. They have access to closed private and public mountain tops in order to service their repeaters. And so on.

Consider R/C model aircraft and their organization the AMA and it's local chapters. I'm pretty sure that without the AMA the hobby would have been regulated to almost non-existence.

Consider Ultralights vs. the FAA. The FAA would be happy to just make them go away but between the EAA and USHPA they've managed to keep these almost completely unregulated (part 103 covering this only about one page out of the volumes of FAR's).

Consider off-roaders who don't do a very good job of organizing and then just whine when their land-use privileges evaporate.


Do people look upon the amateur radio operators, the ultralight operators and model aircraft operators as elitist? Maybe, but I doubt they care much since they're too busy engaging in their hobby! =]


If there are enough problems and/or publicity with an activity then it will get almost certainly get regulated. If the users don't organize and regulate themselves then the regulation will almost certainly be done by governmental organizations and it will be heavy-handed with no regard to the "health" of said activity because that's simply easier. I seriously doubt that simply crying "foul on my freedom!" will do much good...



Will any of this work with laser hobbyists? I don't know....


----------



## wyager

Raccoon said:


> *wyager:* Looking back 20 years from now, you too will agree that you and everyone else in Highschool are immature and unpredictable. Your 20 year from now self would sooner die in a fire than allow your present self to obtain a 1W laser.
> 
> By the by, the lab uses for 445nm are innumerable. I believe this particular diode will revolutionize water purity testing, replacing 10 thousand dollar equipment with a $5 home device. But I could be wrong.


I'm going to have to disagree with this, I try very hard to make sure I avoid an accident with this laser. There are now a minimum of 4000 people with no training or experience receiving the most powerful commercial visible diode laser ever made... I'm more concerned for them.

And as for lab uses, this diode is pretty useless for things like particle concentration or water purification testing. The multimode beam is not reliable at lower powers, and dangerous at high powers for some kinds of testing, as well as having a very unusual beam shape. It's not high frequency enough to induce free radicals or kill microbes like 405nm or UV does. I don't think there are even any medical dyes designed to fluoresce at 445nm. The only real use for this diode is in the entertainment industry, so I don't see why we can't be entertained by it outside of a projector


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

self-regulation is better than government regulation. Just because the government passes laws and regulations, do you think that means that they know more than the people who dedicate their spare time, or in many cases their lives and livelihoods, to lasers?


----------



## Raccoon

Regarding the projector these diodes are coming from; as I understand there are 24 blue diodes and 1 red diode. I assume if these blue diodes are powerful, then the single red must be... well... extremely powerful.

Does anyone have specs?


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

it is a phlatlight sst50 or 90, not a laser.


----------



## Raccoon

bshanahan14rulz said:


> it is a phlatlight sst50 or 90, not a laser.



does the phlatlight put out that much red line to compare to 24 class 4 laser diodes? If so, wouldn't it create such an intense heat against the color filter as to be, at very least, wasteful? Why would they design a laser projector that doesn't utilize red laser diodes?


----------



## hugodrax

So any of you actually get this Vaporware laser? (I suspect not)


----------



## Fat Boy

I have not been able to get through to WL for the last number of days. Does anyone have an update?


----------



## wyager

Raccoon said:


> does the phlatlight put out that much red line to compare to 24 class 4 laser diodes? If so, wouldn't it create such an intense heat against the color filter as to be, at very least, wasteful? Why would they design a laser projector that doesn't utilize red laser diodes?


It is a red LED-I don't know why they didn't use lasers, maybe to save money? Anyway, the red is totally washed out compared to the blue/green generated by the laser. Perhaps in the future we'll get >1W red diodes, and I know we'll see green diodes at about 515nm in these things.


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

wyager, it's only a matter of time before we'll find TVs and projectors with multiple 1W 445's, 515's, and 635's. 'tis a great world we live in today! I cannot wait for tomorrow!


----------



## StarHalo

bshanahan14rulz said:


> wyager, it's only a matter of time before we'll find TVs and projectors with multiple 1W 445's, 515's, and 635's. 'tis a great world we live in today! I cannot wait for tomorrow!



and then we can all go to the 200' WIDE 4K HIGH-DEF IMAX FM AUDIO CARHOP CONCESSION AIRPORT TARMAC :rock:


----------



## wyager

bshanahan14rulz said:


> wyager, it's only a matter of time before we'll find TVs and projectors with multiple 1W 445's, 515's, and 635's. 'tis a great world we live in today! I cannot wait for tomorrow!


Indeed! Imagine, for your next laser project you can simply head down to the second-hand shop and buy a $20 TV! :twothumbs On top of that, LEDs will probably become outdated and replaced with laser diodes! Super-duper-extra-throw flashlights anyone?


StarHalo said:


> and then we can all go to the 200' WIDE 4K HIGH-DEF IMAX FM AUDIO CARHOP CONCESSION AIRPORT TARMAC :rock:


----------



## Wakko

hugodrax said:


> So any of you actually get this Vaporware laser? (I suspect not)



Nobody has, they haven't started shipping yet.


----------



## LuxLoverr

doubt this laser will ship this week. best case scenario, early next week for those who ordered early. hope quality doesn't suffer from this massive undertaking.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Got this eMail from Wicked Lasers.



> Dear Laser Enthusiasts,
> 
> This announcement is to let the laser community know that our laser
> hobby is currently under attack. Last month, we received a cease
> and desist letter from Lucasfilm demanding that we discontinue,
> recall and modify our laser products they referred to as
> "lightsabers" or face imminent legal action.
> 
> CNN - 'Star Wars' creator says laser too much like lightsaber
> 
> Lasers are have a wide variety of applications in the scientific,
> medial, and industrial fields. We cannot allow George Lucas to
> threaten the livelihood and freedom of laser and flashlight
> technology. Science developed from decades of research should not
> be owned by science fiction.
> 
> Check out the eBay auction for your chance to win the original
> cease and desist letter, a piece of Star Wars history!
> 
> 
> Please help the cause by participating in the Lasers for Liberty
> community and by signing the petition to Lucasfilm.
> 
> Help keep laser technology free and thanks for reading this email


 
Basically, Lucasfilms is trying to sue Wicked Lasers because the Spyder III Arctic looks to much like a light saber. Lucas is taking to much credit for lasers. Its not like he invented them, he just put them in movies.

Please, everyone sign the petition so we can get our lasers!

As discssed earlier, this eMail was set to all Arctic customers, therefor is not a private eMail.


----------



## Juggernaut

We all know about the “lawsuit”, that’s last weeks news. We don’t have to sign any petition, that’s stupid, how is a Chinese petition going to help US based laws? And why would they need a petition if they are going to ignore lawsuits anyways:hahaha:? Lastly if petition was needed for us to get these lasers, that would be like a overseas company selling this new miracle drug, everyone buys into it and then the company is like “_Oh sorry about that drug everyone bought, but it just so happens to be illegal, and we need your help “the consumer, which has already paid” to go out and make it legal, sorry for any inconvenience_:fail:” If that was the case I think we are going to have some problems:thumbsdow:scowl::tsk:.


----------



## Raccoon

Juggernaut said:


> _... but it just so happens to be illegal, and we need your help “the consumer, which has already paid” to go out and make it legal, sorry for any inconvenience_” If that was the case I think we are going to have some problems.[/COLOR]



Like with cigarettes, beer, and guns... the public regularly petitions to keep these things legal. Without it, we'd still be experiencing prohibition, tobacco would be completely outlawed, and guns would be for police goons only.

I see nothing ridiculous about a company fighting for the legality of its products. Half of the products you own today have at some point seen a cease & desist, infringement lawsuit, and came out victorious. And every household has at least one product that was recalled at some point, which you are probably unaware of.

Edit:

Personally, I feel Wicked should just continue making them, start shipping them, and sell them on the website as "Recalled Collectors Item -- Genuine "LIGHTSABRE" product recall -- collectible." and charge $10 more bucks.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Yeah I'm sure Lucas would love that.

Correct me if im wrong, but doesn't a light saber beam have to stop at about 3 or 4 feet from the laser aperture? And wouldnt the beam diameter @ aperture be like 35mm instead of 1.5mm? Just thought I'd butcher the idea :nana:


----------



## DM51

SmurfTacular, I've removed the promotional links from the email you quoted.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Just when I thoght I was doing everything to the rules!

Wicked Lasers claimed that they will gaurentee shipping from China on the 15th. Today is the 14th in USA, its the 15th in China. So does that mean they're shipping today? :thinking:


----------



## DM51

SmurfTacular said:


> Just when I thoght I was doing everything to the rules!


It wasn't that you broke any rules in particular - it is just that we don't want CPF to be used as a conduit for protests, petitions or any other form of spam.


----------



## Shiftlock

Raccoon said:


> *wyager:* Looking back 20 years from now, you too will agree that you and everyone else in Highschool are immature and unpredictable. Your 20 year from now self would sooner die in a fire than allow your present self to obtain a 1W laser.



With all due respect to wyager, this reminds me of something my father said to me when I was in high school. I didn't take it as profound at the time, but looking back on it now decades later, it has new meaning. He was the kind of man who didn't say much, but when he spoke, it was worth listening. He said, "Just like you, I knew everything by the time I was your age. It took many more years before I realized I don't know sh*t."


----------



## Shiftlock

SmurfTacular said:


> Just when I thoght I was doing everything to the rules!
> 
> Wicked Lasers claimed that they will gaurentee shipping from China on the 15th. Today is the 14th in USA, its the 15th in China. So does that mean they're shipping today? :thinking:



I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid it's going to be a long time before anyone actually sees this laser (if ever). There's no question that WL received a lot more orders than they expected, and then had to implement additional safety mechanisms. They obviously started taking orders before the final design was even finished. Talk about jumping the gun! I don't suspect anyone will see this thing until the end of the summer at the earliest, and I think there's even a chance that this laser will never actually ship. It worries me that WL charged the credit cards as soon as the orders were placed, knowing they weren't even close to shipping, which they're not supposed to do. They do have a history of questionable business practices. This is the reason I didn't place an order myself. I would have ordered a few of them if I wasn't worried about the whole thing being vaporware. Like I said, I hope I'm wrong about this (it wouldn't be the first time), but if you start to see broken shipping promises and then a total lack of communication from WL, well, I wouldn't hesitate calling your credit card company. You can always place the order again if and when they're actually being received by people.


----------



## Raccoon

Shiftlock: I'll buy one for $200 if you make it.


----------



## Shiftlock

Raccoon said:


> Shiftlock: I'll buy one for $200 if you make it.



Obviously you're not alone! I'm guessing WL grossed about a quarter of a million dollars in orders for this laser in a few weeks. That's just a guess, so it could be way off in either direction, but in any case, it's a lot of money. I just hope they can deliver, but the more I think about it, the more unlikely it seems, especially as the weeks tick away. If they find they just can't get their hands on that many diodes in a reasonable time period, will they issue refunds? They may just be buried in orders with no possible way to make good on them. We'll see. The waiting continues...


----------



## Fat Boy

no email response, no voicemail callbacks, no phone answers in the last 10 days. Has anyone had a response? Has anyone tried to get their money back?


----------



## TheFathomlessBlue

No one has any info on these. Wether there are technical problems with the product, issues with customs or the FDA, or even a legal problem with Lucas Films, NO ONE has their arctic yet. Lots of people have cancelled thier orders, I don't know if anyone has gotten thier money back though.

Just wait it out. In a few months you'll get your laser or your money. WL is in the middle of a massive cluster %$#& right now. 90% of all the posts on other forums are complete crap, a bunch of kids ruuning around in a caffine and sugar induced rage waiting for Sanata to show up on their door step with thier "laser" so they can fianlly top getting beat up for thier lunch money....


----------



## Fat Boy

Funny, I just got an email reply and here it is. I think this is within the rules of the forum, if not please delete, sorry. I don't think they would've sent out a statment that some will be getting their lasers unless they feel they are really on track to completing this, I'm thinking possitive thoughts.



> "Arctics have began shipping on the 15th. Due to the high amount of orders received, customers who purchased first will receive priority status in the order of shipping. In order to avoid customs-related delays, we will not be providing tracking numbers for Arctic orders at this time. You will be notified when your order is shipped out and you'll receive the date when the package is scheduled to be delivered. Most current Arctic customers should receive their shipment notification emails sometime next week. If for any reason, you would like to receive a refund prior to shipping, please notify us immediately. We appreciate your patience and look forward to your business again."


 
I got this follow up email very quickly. It look like to me that we'll know pretty soon and start seeing videos and pictures. Again I'm thinking possitive thoughts.



> "From the time they get shipped it's usually 2-4 days."


----------



## Shiftlock

I guess that's good news, but I suspect that people here were some of the first to order (before the media blitz), and therefore should be among the first to receive the shipping notification. Nobody has as far as I know. The comment about tracking numbers and customs delays is also strange. I don't understand how providing a tracking number could cause a customs delay.

If they're on the level, then those who ordered should receive their lasers soon. If another week has gone by, and there's still no reports of anyone receiving a 445nm Artic, or even the mentioned shipment notification email, then there's no question WL is up to no good. It won't be long now before we know one way or the other.


----------



## Raccoon

Shiftlock said:


> I don't understand how providing a tracking number could cause a customs delay.



When the XYZ wants to prevent Wicked Lasers' products from entering their country, they monitor Wicked's outgoing emails for addresses and tracking numbers. And I hope nobody starts a debate about "big brother email snooping", all governments admit to monitoring their country's email traffic -- The USA even documents it in public record.


----------



## Shiftlock

Raccoon said:


> When the XYZ wants to prevent Wicked Lasers' products from entering their country, they monitor Wicked's outgoing emails for addresses and tracking numbers. And I hope nobody starts a debate about "big brother email snooping", all governments admit to monitoring their country's email traffic -- The USA even documents it in public record.



That can't possibly be what they were referring to. There's no way any government would bother intercepting email for tracking numbers to stop handheld lasers from entering the country. "Sir, the Echelon and Carnivore systems are hitting on inbound Arctic 445 tracking numbers from Wicked Lasers! We need to intercept immediately!" You've been watching too many episodes of 24. More likely they are just using a cheaper shipping method that doesn't get randomly searched as often as packages that have to get scanned for tracking, but that still doesn't make a ton of sense. Come to think of it, they probably have to declare the contents of the package when they use a shipping company (FedEx, DHL, UPS) with a tracking number, which is much more likely to trigger a customs search than a random nondescriptive box sent by regular air-post. Even more likely it's just nonsense they made up to hold off the sh*t storm of angry customers who are asking for tracking numbers. In any case, I'm sure it has nothing to do with government email interception. BTW, show me where the US government documents real-time email interception.


----------



## Raccoon

You act as if the FBI, FAA and FDA CDRH have never had interest in, investigated, charged, issued warrant, nor pursued Wicked Lasers (a previously American based company, fled to China) and held their products at customs before.

Perhaps you should look up the Bush administration’s warrantless surveillance program


> ... a surveillance program aimed at intercepting foreign correspondence as it passed through domestic internet switches. Such interception was previously illegal unless conducted with a warrant from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. After news stories revealed that the NSA was conducting such surveillance without a warrant, however, Congress legalized such collection activities last year in its passage of the FISA Amendments Act. (2009)


----------



## matt304

13 pages of rambling.

:shakehead


----------



## SmurfTacular

What else is there to do if the laser hasn't shipped yet...


----------



## matt304

I will will build each and every one of you a blue laser at more than a watt and you can have it soon, it will run on an 18650, and unlike the Arctic, it will actually fit it your pocket.

It sounds like you guys really want blue lasers.

$215 for each one. I've been doing it elsewhere, mine as well do it here.


----------



## Shiftlock

Raccoon said:


> You act as if the FBI, FAA and FDA CDRH have never had interest in, investigated, charged, issued warrant, nor pursued Wicked Lasers (a previously American based company, fled to China) and held their products at customs before.
> 
> Perhaps you should look up the Bush administration’s warrantless surveillance program



Oh, I'm more than aware of the atrocities of the Bush administration. God knows. Conducting an investigation of WL's illegal activity is not the same thing as investigating it to the extreme of intercepting email to search for single order tracking numbers. Even under Bush the US government wouldn't have done something like that. We're not talking about terrorism here. This is now off topic.


----------



## matt304

PM me for details if interested.


----------



## Raccoon

Shiftlock said:


> Oh, I'm more than aware of the atrocities of the Bush administration. God knows.



FISA Amendments Act is the Obama administration, not even 2 years old. And when you have a Google Search interface, as the Department of Homeland Security joint FBI/NSA/XYZ does, it becomes rather effortless to key in "UPS Tracking + Wicked Lasers" and return perfect collections of UPS tracking numbers. Dump them into a list, send to Customs for delay, and vaula. What do you think these computer geeks get college degrees for? It's not like there's a whole lot of legitimate "terrorists" out there; this is busy work. Spies don't sip margaritas from beach chairs.

This is how it's done, yaw.

Besides. Obama doesn't want a bunch of terrorists running the streets with megawot lazers blinding policemans.


----------



## Shiftlock

Raccoon said:


> FISA Amendments Act is the Obama administration, not even 2 years old. And when you have a Google Search interface, as the Department of Homeland Security joint FBI/NSA/XYZ does, it becomes rather effortless to key in "UPS Tracking + Wicked Lasers" and return perfect collections of UPS tracking numbers. Dump them into a list, send to Customs for delay, and vaula. What do you think these computer geeks get college degrees for? It's not like there's a whole lot of legitimate "terrorists" out there; this is busy work. Spies don't sip margaritas from beach chairs.
> 
> This is how it's done, yaw.
> 
> Besides. Obama doesn't want a bunch of terrorists running the streets with megawot lazers blinding policemans.



FISA was originally the Carter administration. It was signed into law in 1978. I actually remember when it was first proposed a year prior to that. The new FISA Amendments don't give US government agencies ultimate power to monitor whoever they want whenever they want. They require the permission of an FISA court to wiretap Americans. In an emergency situation, surveillance can start and proceed for one week without a warrant, but the FISA Court has to be notified. Handheld laser tracking numbers do not come even remotely close to meeting the requirements for such an emergency situation. It's not like there's a SuperUser-Root-Access-Google-Terminal in every FBI office. Seriously, this isn't CSI. 

I have a lifetime subscription to a magazine called "2600", which covers a topic closely related to this. I don't follow these issues like I used to, but I know the basics and I recognize Hollywood-inspired paranoia when I see it. 

This is seriously off topic now. If you really believe there's even a remote chance that a government agency out there is monitoring Wicked Lasers orders and pulling up tracking numbers on a MegaGoogle terminal in order to stop handheld lasers from entering the country, then let's just agree to disagree.


----------



## LuxLoverr

Wicked Lasers To show our loyal customers that we're very concerned about your full satisfaction we will be offering a one time $50.00 off discount for every Arctic customer that purchased their Arctic before July 10th. You must apply before July 31st. The discount is valid for orders of $200.00 (shipping not included) or more. Valid until September 31st 2010. Please send us an email with your full name and order number to apply!


----------



## FNinjaP90

LuxLoverr said:


> Wicked Lasers To show our loyal customers that we're very concerned about your full satisfaction we will be offering a one time $50.00 off discount for every Arctic customer that purchased their Arctic before July 10th. You must apply before July 31st. The discount is valid for orders of $200.00 (shipping not included) or more. Valid until September 31st 2010. Please send us an email with your full name and order number to apply!



I don't see anything about this.


----------



## LuxLoverr

FNinjaP90 said:


> I don't see anything about this.


 
on their facebook acct.


----------



## Fat Boy

LuxLoverr said:


> on their facebook acct.


Well they must have taken it down, I don't see anything either.


----------



## Raccoon

It's right there.

http://www.facebook.com/wickedlasers



Wicked Lasers said:


> To show our loyal customers that we're very concerned about your full satisfaction we will be offering a one time $50.00 off discount for every Arctic customer that purchased their Arctic before July 10th. You must apply before July 31st. The discount is valid for orders of $200.00 (shipping not included) or more. Valid until September 31st 2010. Please send us an email with your full name and order number to apply!



*One minor problem! The Arctic costs only $197.97 (shipping not included)! LOL




*


----------



## wyager

matt304 said:


> I will will build each and every one of you a blue laser at more than a watt and you can have it soon, it will run on an 18650, and unlike the Arctic, it will actually fit it your pocket.
> 
> It sounds like you guys really want blue lasers.
> 
> $215 for each one. I've been doing it elsewhere, mine as well do it here.


Have fun getting screwed by the FDA, selling completed lasers without being certified (even from the US) is illegal. Also, can I ask which host/driver/heatsink/etc you are using?


----------



## Raccoon

wyager said:


> Have fun getting screwed by the FDA, selling completed lasers without being certified (even from the US) is illegal. Also, can I ask which host/driver/heatsink/etc you are using?



"Diodes Sold Separately." -- It becomes completely legal if you simply include the diode in a different box, and sell the whole thing as a kit. Step 1. Remove diode from box. Step 2. Insert diode into driver. Step 3. Turn on.


----------



## Shiftlock

Raccoon said:


> "Diodes Sold Separately." -- It becomes completely legal if you simply include the diode in a different box, and sell the whole thing as a kit. Step 1. Remove diode from box. Step 2. Insert diode into driver. Step 3. Turn on.



That simple, huh?  If a federal prosecutor decides to disagree, I wouldn't want to be the one who tests it. This type of simple loophole does not work so great in an actual court room. Defendants have historically not been very lucky attempting to skirt the law with techniques like this. In fact, you would probably be hard pressed to even find an attorney who would suggest using it as an actual defense. I can think of one specific case where someone was indicted for possessing parts that *could* be used to make an illegal device (which at the time would have allowed a person to make free phone calls from a payphone), but which in and of themselves were not illegal to own. A "kit," if you will. That person (Ed Cummings a.k.a. "Bernie S") spent actual time in prison. Don't believe every simple "internet defense" you hear thrown around on forums. Most of them are not as simple as they sound, and not at all very useful when you're standing in front of a judge.


----------



## Raccoon

Yup. That simple.

The main thing stopping most laser enthusiasts from building their own, is simple knowledge and convenience. If you supply the body, batteries, charger, driver and head, then 99% of the work is done.

There's nothing illegal about creating a "flashlight" that can accept a range of perfectly legal bulbs. There are thousands of laser diodes that would fit. It's up to the customer to choose which diode they want to use.

Heck. Throw a 5mm white LED in there, and it's not even a kit anymore. It's a flashlight.


----------



## Shiftlock

Raccoon said:


> Yup. That simple.



Nope. From a legal perspective, it's the intent that matters. If you sell the parts as a kit knowing that every one of your buyers will snap them together in a few minutes and make a 1W laser, legally it's exactly the same as selling a 1W laser. I'm telling you, these loophole legal defenses are nothing but internet legend with very little basis in reality. Do you really think the law is that easy to circumvent? The ingredients to make crystal meth are legal and useful items in their own right, but go into business selling them together as a "Crystal Meth Kit" and see how long your business venture lasts. It's all about your intent.


----------



## Raccoon

There are two types of "intent"; Speculative, and Proven.

People often confuse these two types as one-and-the-same, but they are not.

Speculative intent is when someone says "I believe he intended to do something because his actions leading up to this point suggest that he may have been planning to do so. Other than that, we have no evidence."

Proven intent is when someone can claim "I can prove he intended to do something; because he admitted to it, or we have documents, witnesses and testimony to prove intent."

If you sell a product, specifically named and functioning as a legal device, then you intend to sell it as said legal device. What other people do to it is their business.

Hardware stores sell Shotguns and Hacksaws in very close proximity to one another, but there is no legal offense being committed. I've also seen duct tape, garbage bags and twine all sold in the same isle (i found this rather convenient).


----------



## StarHalo

This episode of Law & Order sucks.

Anyone get a shipping confirmation?


----------



## wyager

Raccoon said:


> "Diodes Sold Separately." -- It becomes completely legal if you simply include the diode in a different box, and sell the whole thing as a kit. Step 1. Remove diode from box. Step 2. Insert diode into driver. Step 3. Turn on.


Why would you pay over $200 for a laser if you could build it yourself anyway? If you can already put the diode in, you might as well do it yourself and spend less than $150 (if you play your cards right).


----------



## Shiftlock

Nobody would get away with selling a shotgun and a hacksaw together in the same package as a "kit," because the intent of the seller then becomes obvious. They are selling a sawed-off shotgun kit, which is absolutely illegal. Besides, this conversation arose specifically as a way to skirt the law. That *WAS* the intent. 

People have been indicted and convicted for this type of thing. It's in the case law. If you sell a product that can easily be assembled or modified into an illegal device, and you intend for your buyers to use it as such, then you are risking a grand jury indictment. You can explain the difference between "speculative intent" and "proven intent" to a judge/jury. You can explain that "I just sold the kit, what the buyers do with it is their business." There's no way these defense strategies will be successful.

Judging by StarHalo's post, this is not exactly interesting to most people here. It's not on topic here either, but there are law forums on the internet where it is. Those forums have users who are actual attorneys and legal experts. If you like, we could move this to one of those forums. I'm sure there would be people there who would be happy to explain it, and cite case law. Let me know if this interests you, and I'll find one.


----------



## Dave 300

Hi im new to joining this forum but have read many articles here and bought products on what you guys have posted , i too have paid for one of these from WL but ive just received another e mail saying there is a price restructure no im confused.
Dear Valued Customer,

The S3 Arctic will no longer be offered at the introductory pricing
of $197.97 effective on or before midnight July 23rd PST. The new
price will be $299.95. The increase has been carefully thought
through and it is only being taken to ensure continued quality. To
meet the high immediate demand we must step up our efforts and
budgets in dealing with expanded customer service and delivery
deadlines.

The shipping status of the S3 Arctic is as follows:

G1 (w/ smartswitch) is in stock and ready to ship within 24 hours
of purchasing, guaranteed.

G2 (w/o smartswitch) is not in stock and will be in stock in
approximately one week.


Wicked Lasers will begin shipping Arctic G1 lasers to customers
who email us and request this model in place of the G2 edition.
While we suggest customers wait for the improved G2 edition with
additional safety features, we recognize that some customers may
require their lasers immediately.

Please email [email protected] with your order number to
get your Arctic G1 laser shipped right away. Customers who do not
request the G1 edition will automatically receive the G2 edition
as soon as it is in stock.

We thank all our customers for supporting us and your patience.
We look forward to dealing with you again!
Best Regards,

Steve Liu
CEO
Wicked Lasers
(877)-WLASERS
http
Ps i dont know if iwas allowed to do this so erase it if im inbreach of any thing.


----------



## BDH925

Am I reading that right?
The G1 with the smartswitch, a safety feature is in stock ready to ship.
The G2 without the smartswitch will not be avail until next week.

But then they say the G2 will have more safety features, and they recommend waiting for it.

So which is it? G1 is safer or the G2?


----------



## Dave 300

But dose it mean that if we have already gone through the steps of paying we are at the old price or the new one ? but either way its not so clear..


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Maybe they're made from unobtanium.


----------



## Shiftlock

And the saga continues. I think someone else in this thread said it best when they called the whole Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W Arctic thing a total cluster f***. If some are shipping immediately, and it takes ~4 days for delivery (as quoted in a different WL email), then we should see someone screaming "I got mine!" by the middle of next week.


----------



## reptiles

Greetings, 

I'm wondering what are some of the non-frivolous uses of this laser? 

Is is possible to modulate the beam for long distance point-to-point communications?


----------



## AnAppleSnail

reptiles said:


> Greetings,
> 
> I'm wondering what are some of the non-frivolous uses of this laser?
> 
> Is is possible to modulate the beam for long distance point-to-point communications?



No. The laser doesn't have the collimation for that. At 100 meters it's 51.5 cm across. You can show your position to people within a mile or so at night.


----------



## wyager

AnAppleSnail said:


> No. The laser doesn't have the collimation for that. At 100 meters it's 51.5 cm across. You can show your position to people within a mile or so at night.


Right. It's not designed for scientific use... and @reptiles-what is the non-frivolous use of the excess of shelf queen flashlights we own? It's a hobby, it's like model car building or painting... basically pointless, but fun.


----------



## Shiftlock

wyager said:


> basically pointless, but fun.



Pointless? Pun intended?  Well, there are a few legitimate uses for high power portable lasers. I once sold a 532nm to a guy who worked in some sort of a large quarry. He was looking for a way to point out locations on the other side of the quarry in daylight. I also had an inquiry from a forest ranger who was asking about using it as an emergency backup signaling device in a mountainous region. Then there's always star pointing, for those who do astronomy demonstrations, and a 445nm laser might be well suited to that, since it won't disrupt your night vision as much as a green laser. I also heard about someone using a portable laser to put small holes in plastic for some sort of craft making, although I would think there are better methods. I suppose it could be used for simple etching or markings in plastic, as well. But you're right, most everyone on this forum is interested for one reason only, and that's as a fun hobby. There's nothing wrong with that either, and it's also a legitimate use.


----------



## Unforgiven

_This is not to be turned into a sales thread.

matt304,

If you want to sell items, it must be done in the appropriate sale forum, NOT here. _


----------



## Shiftlock

Unforgiven said:


> _This is not to be turned into a sales thread.
> 
> matt304,
> 
> If you want to sell items, it must be done in the appropriate sale forum, NOT here. _



Makes sense, but just so it's clear, can we discuss the design of matt304's laser and how it compares to the Wicked Lasers unit in this thread, or should that be done in the sales forum only? I assume that would be okay, and you just don't want him taking orders here, but I want to make sure before I ask him some questions I have in mind. Thanks.


----------



## wyager

Let's not discuss his design here, I think it's the wrong thread. Another thread should be made IMO... Anyway, I'm lolling at everyone who has to wait another 2 years to see any 445nm.....:nana:


----------



## Shiftlock

wyager said:


> I'm lolling at everyone who has to wait another 2 years to see any 445nm.....:nana:



Laughing out louding? 

Two years? According to WL, they're now shipping and many people will receive their 445nm Arctics next week. I wouldn't bet my house on it, but there's a chance this might actually happen. You never know.


----------



## ejot

Yeah, the thread's about the Spyder III, so let's discuss the Spyder III. 

Video just posted showing the UI :sick2:: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USQGkKS-R7g


----------



## senecaripple

just got this 10 min. ago.

Dear sam 

In my mail from yesterday, I made an error when I referred to the
G1 as w/ smartswitch, and G2 as w/o smartswitch. I apologize for
creating this confusion.

The G1 is the model without the smartswitch.
The G2 is the model with the smartswitch.

Again, sorry for the confusion.

G1 lasers are ready to ship immediately, and the G2 will be ready
in about one week In the meanwhile, please check out our smartswitch video 

explaining how the G2 smartswitch works. We suggest that our customers
wait for the G2 model that has extra safety functions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USQGkKS-R7g 


For our customers who still do not want the G2 model and want the
G1 without smartswitch instead. They can get their G1 shipped
immediately by emailing [email protected]. Our other
mailboxes are full and we are working hard to get our emails read
and answered, however, the for immediate processing of G1 shipping,
please email the [email protected] email address.

Please note that we will be unable to accept exchange requests for
customers who choose to receive their G1 without smartswitch laser
in place of the G2 with smartswitch.

We also regret that we will not be able to continue selling the Arctic at the
introductory price of $197.97 in two days. The new price will be $299.95.
Thank you again for your patience and we apologize for the confusion
caused by our last email.


----------



## senecaripple

ordered 2, so i opted for one of each. provided, they ship today or tomorrow!


----------



## Unforgiven

Shiftlock said:


> Makes sense, but just so it's clear, can we discuss the design of matt304's laser and how it compares to the Wicked Lasers unit in this thread, or should that be done in the sales forum only? I assume that would be okay, and you just don't want him taking orders here, but I want to make sure before I ask him some questions I have in mind. Thanks.





ejot said:


> Yeah, the thread's about the Spyder III, so let's discuss the Spyder III.
> 
> Video just posted showing the UI :sick2:: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USQGkKS-R7g





Like ejot posted, make a new thread in the appropriate forum if you want to compare lasers. Just be conservative about posting the links to the parts and not make it a pointer/advertising thread.


----------



## Raccoon

Does anyone know if this "Smart Switch" design and technology (components used) is new to any Wicked Lasers products, or has it been seen before and tested for bugs?

This product seems way too popular for sudden and immediate release of a new untested tech that was slapped together in 2 weeks. I hope WL knows what they're doing and there isn't a wave of failure and return.


----------



## senecaripple

Raccoon said:


> Does anyone know if this "Smart Switch" design and technology (components used) is new to any Wicked Lasers products, or has it been seen before and tested for bugs?
> 
> This product seems way too popular for sudden and immediate release of a new untested tech that was slapped together in 2 weeks. I hope WL knows what they're doing and there isn't a wave of failure and return.





looks looks like it's a new design in response to the FDA safety requirements. and looks to be still in the designing stage. they're still another week away from delivery, meaning a few more weeks, probably to get the kinks out.


----------



## matt304

Sorry, this thread seemed to be more about anything 445nm at random than the Wicked Lasers Arctic. I will start my own thread now.

I was one of the first people to order the Arctic. I ordered it on June 10. I still have received no shipping confirmation. Since it appears most of the people in here ordered after me, I can update the thread as soon as my tracking number is sent.

Ok, off to make another thread in this forum.


----------



## fabienne

So maybe you guys could give an idea on what to expect based on last email on our options to choose between G1 and G2 type ? Which would you prefer ? Just thinking that G2 with all those multimode output will be more useful rather than single mode G1. What do you think ?


----------



## matt304

What are you talking about now, multi mode and single mode?

Edit: Oh, sorry, nm. I just realized the switch allows for different modes. At first I thought you were talking about the diode.


----------



## senecaripple

fabienne said:


> So maybe you guys could give an idea on what to expect based on last email on our options to choose between G1 and G2 type ? Which would you prefer ? Just thinking that G2 with all those multimode output will be more useful rather than single mode G1. What do you think ?




because i ordered 2, i chose both. g1 is supposedly to be sent first. so, i chose the highest order # for g1, and hoping the g1 would most likely slip by customs in the event the feds want to play games.
and g1 will not be produced anymore, hence, i wanted 1 g1.


----------



## Juggernaut

As far as I can see a point has not yet been brought up. We all seem to agree too some extent that this laser will be extremely dangerous to all of these first timers:sigh:. There is however a second danger that I find could ironically cause more trouble then the beam from this thing. The 18650 Li-ion cell:shakehead…..

How many of these people will have no idea about it’s safety risks and proper usage and handling? Lets hope these things are protected because if they are notoo:…… Well lets just say this could be quite a disaster waiting to happen:duck:! Think about all these user leaving them charging while they sleep and are not home, or over discharging them “if none protected”. This scares me too, at least they won’t be a hazard to us:thumbsup:. 
 
Oh yea, some one bought the “CEASE AND DESIST LETTER” off e-bay for $3,850!! What a waist of money!


----------



## Raccoon

Juggernaut said:


> Oh yea, some one bought the “CEASE AND DESIST LETTER” off e-bay for $3,850!! What a waist of money!



They get $3,850 worth of Wicked Lasers merchandise. I suppose you could still call it a waste of money (if you are not fond of WL products), otherwise, I call it "free Star Wars collectors item with your next purchase of $3,850 from Wicked Lasers."


----------



## wyager

Wicked still hasn't shipped, and they're lying hardcore. They sent out a few shipping confirmation emails and then proceeded to post on facebook that not a single laser had shipped yet :thumbsdow LIES. And there's a 99% chance that even the G1 arctics aren't ready to ship, steve (wicked's CEO) made it very clear to a few people (myself included) that he wasn't going to ship them separately from the G2s. Perhaps he changed his mind, but I'm 99% sure he hasn't.


----------



## Shiftlock

wyager said:


> Wicked still hasn't shipped, and they're lying hardcore. They sent out a few shipping confirmation emails and then proceeded to post on facebook that not a single laser had shipped yet :thumbsdow LIES. And there's a 99% chance that even the G1 arctics aren't ready to ship, steve (wicked's CEO) made it very clear to a few people (myself included) that he wasn't going to ship them separately from the G2s. Perhaps he changed his mind, but I'm 99% sure he hasn't.



Can't say I'm surprised by this. What worries me is that they've already billed everyone's credit card, they seem to be stalling and stringing people along, and worse yet, they're trying to attract an influx of additional orders by saying the lower price is only good for a few more days. Isn't that the last thing they should be doing in this situation? Really sounds like they're up to no good. Exactly what is really going on at WL is anyone's guess.

I want to also say that this is all speculation. Maybe they're totally on the level, and everyone will receive their orders soon. I really don't know, I'm just speculating and giving my opinion about how the situation looks to me. As I've said before, I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## hugodrax

My prediction is no one gets any product, Wicked Laser closes shop and just like a Phoenix a new company arises from the ashes.

This will be the Bernard Madoff of Laserpointers.


----------



## Shiftlock

hugodrax said:


> My prediction is no one gets any product, Wicked Laser closes shop and just like a Phoenix a new company arises from the ashes.
> 
> This will be the Bernard Madoff of Laserpointers.



 I didn't want to say it, but I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking it. I believe WL already owns some domain names that it could use to reinvent itself (I'll look into this later when I have some time). All the orders from the extensive media coverage may just have brought in enough orders to take the money and run. Hope this isn't the case, but they do seem to be contradicting themselves, saying different things to different people, stringing everyone along, and inviting new orders at a time when they should be concentrating on filling the orders that are in the queue. All the signs are there. Let's just hope it's disorganization and bad management. That said, I'd be calling my credit card company if I had an order waiting. You can always order again later, although they've tried to discourage people from doing that by saying the price will go up $100 in a few days. Yikes.


----------



## Shiftlock

Starphaser.com and laserpointer.com appear to be owned by Wicked Lasers. If WL disappears, keep an eye on those.


----------



## wyager

In wicked's defense, they are still shipping other lasers (according to a few LPF members). They just appear to be fraudulently lying about the arctic.


----------



## Fat Boy

If you were planning to close-up shop and steal everyones money you would steal EVERYONES money you could get your hands on. I still believe that I will eventually get my order.


----------



## Dave 300

They must have so many orders its probably mindblowing ! Have faith not everyone is a rip off merchant.


----------



## Shiftlock

Fat Boy said:


> If you were planning to close-up shop and steal everyones money you would steal EVERYONES money you could get your hands on. I still believe that I will eventually get my order.



Perhaps, but at the same time you would want to make it look like you were still legitimate so the orders keep coming in, and so that people don't start canceling pending orders before they can run with the money. If you had inventory of other lasers, it would make sense to ship those orders. In the mean time, you would entice as many people as possible to place additional orders, like they did on 7/20 when they announced that the price would increase from $198 to $300 in two days (the price is still the same three days later). They've also been saying whatever it takes to appease people who have pending Arctic orders. The whole situation looks very sketchy to me.



Dave 300 said:


> They must have so many orders its probably mindblowing ! Have faith not everyone is a rip off merchant.



Faith? Everyone? This is the first time I've suspected ANY merchant was about to rip off all their customers. You can stick with "faith" if you like, but I prefer to judging the situation on FACTS, not "faith." I always try to remain positive, but burying your head in the sand isn't smart at all, especially when you're dealing with a Chinese company that's been contradicting itself, has been caught in lies, billed credit cards before they were permitted, is pushing for more orders when they already have more than they can handle, and has a past history of shady business practices (including fleeing to a foreign country to avoid legal responsibilities). I've said a number of times that I hope I'm wrong, and there is of course a chance that I am, but every day that goes by makes the situation look worse and worse. The mindblowing number of orders you mention is exactly what would tempt someone to run with the money and reopen under a different business name.

It doesn't worry you at all that they were billing people's credit cards for this product before they even had a prototype built? Before the design was even finished? Even in the best case scenario, they were still deceptive, dishonest with their customers, and violated their Visa/Master Card merchant agreement. You still want to rely on "faith?"


----------



## DM51

Shiftlock said:


> I really don't know, I'm just speculating and giving my opinion about how the situation looks to me... I hope I'm wrong.


If it is just speculation, your suspicions are very strongly worded, and come very close to the point where you are making direct accusations of dishonesty. You need to be very sure of your ground before you do that, and in any case such accusations do not have a place in this forum. We have C&J, and/or the Underground, for such purposes.


----------



## Fat Boy

> like they did on 7/20 when they announced that the price would increase from $198 to $300 in two days (the price is still the same three days later).


 
actually they do have the increase posted on the site but the shopping cart is not updated. I've called several times to try and order at the old price without success, so I am leaning that they would not want to walk away from this company when really they could be on a huge growth period. I am a business owner and even with the problems that they seem to have I wouldn't walk away from all that FREE publicity...it's just dump that they've allowed some of it to turn bad. I think a lot of people will forgive when they get this laser in their hands, I know I will.


----------



## Shiftlock

DM51 said:


> If it is just speculation, your suspicions are very strongly worded, and come very close to the point where you are making direct accusations of dishonesty. You need to be very sure of your ground before you do that, and in any case such accusations do not have a place in this forum. We have C&J, and/or the Underground, for such purposes.



Oh, there's no question they've been dishonest, that much is clear. I just hope I'm wrong about the whole thing being a ripoff. I do understand this isn't the place for discussion of it, so topic dropped. I'll end it by saying I do sincerely hope they're just backed up and everyone will eventually get what they ordered. That would obviously be the best outcome for everyone. Cheers.


----------



## Dave 300

Hey guys if it all goes wrong we all know someone on here who can sort us out with the real thing!!!


----------



## hugodrax

Shiftlock said:


> I didn't want to say it, but I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking it. I believe WL already owns some domain names that it could use to reinvent itself (I'll look into this later when I have some time). All the orders from the extensive media coverage may just have brought in enough orders to take the money and run. Hope this isn't the case, but they do seem to be contradicting themselves, saying different things to different people, stringing everyone along, and inviting new orders at a time when they should be concentrating on filling the orders that are in the queue. All the signs are there. Let's just hope it's disorganization and bad management. That said, I'd be calling my credit card company if I had an order waiting. You can always order again later, although they've tried to discourage people from doing that by saying the price will go up $100 in a few days. Yikes.



Think about it. Unbelievable product, Limited time hurry before prices go up, shipping other products (Remember Madoff was paying "Dividends"), excuses etc.. Anyhow thats how things turn out when something sounds too good to be true etc.


Think about it the story just sounds fishy, they are buying this huge lot of "Projectors cheap", taking it apart and removing the lasers, building this thing and all for under 200 bucks. And even a nice little story with pictures.
I wanted one myself but somehow my street sense told me to wait and see, it sounded too good to be true and with an incredible story and big media hype.

Anyhow this is not an accusation. Just my opinion on what I think could potentially happen.


----------



## Fat Boy

After looking at the latest pictures on facebook I am still feeling pretty good about ordering two units and getting the extra glasses and lens cleaner for free. If I get this by September 1st I'll be happy. In many cultures there is a built in fudge factor that they consider ethical and with the past dealings with wicked I believe that they feel honest because they intend to do things and then the target moves and they are OK with that. When I was in South America and Mexico for an extended time I can't tell you how many times I heard "mañana" but there was no way it was going to get done till next month. They still considered the term mañana as completely honest, where as I did not. I needed to learn ahead of time that it was always going to take a month no matter what I wanted, so I chilled. And if someone here is able to build one under 200.00 on a single proto-type basis what makes you think they can't out do that in China as a mass production???


----------



## matt304

I placed my order for my Spyder on June 11. I was immediately charged, told two times it would ship by the end of the month. It's now the end of the second month, and I haven't received some of the emails that other early customers did. This raised some suspicion.

I have now sent two emails within two weeks, one to customer service, one directly to Steve. I have received NO reply on the status of that order which I was charged for.

Want to hear the ironic thing? I sent them questions about purchasing other products from the same email account in between those emails, and the company had the time to respond to those. So, they respond when they can see a possible profit made from the response, while ditching the service to anyone else.

It isn't false skepticism anymore. It is to the point that WL has become careless towards their customers. There is no kind words that can relieve their actions for handling a matter such as mine in the matter that they have handled it.



Dave 300 said:


> Hey guys if it all goes wrong we all know someone on here who can sort us out with the real thing!!!



I will promise you that.


----------



## gsxer

This is really bad news I thought WL was a good business. I almost ordered one myself but a little birdy said wait for awhile glad I did. I hope it all works out soon and everyone gets there Spyder III.


----------



## hugodrax

Has anyone validated the facts surrounding the projectors they are using and that they actually contain that number of 445nm laser diodes?


----------



## Shiftlock

hugodrax said:


> Has anyone validated the facts surrounding the projectors they are using and that they actually contain that number of 445nm laser diodes?



Yes, there's no question about that. You can see them for yourself here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9aV9ziELDw

A real question is whether Casio even manufactured the number of projectors WL would need to fill the number of orders they received after the media frenzy. Although, I'm certain WL has at least attempted to get these diodes directly from the manufacturer, instead of ripping open thousands of projectors.


----------



## hugodrax

Shiftlock said:


> Yes, there's no question about that. You can see them for yourself here:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9aV9ziELDw
> 
> A real question is whether Casio even manufactured the number of projectors WL would need to fill the number of orders they received after the media frenzy. Although, I'm certain WL has at least attempted to get these diodes directly from the manufacturer, instead of ripping open thousands of projectors.



Wow that is so dangerous, I hope that guy wore the proper eye protection. Pretty scary that it is so easy for anyone to just remove this module with three screws.

I wonder if the diodes are easy to remove from that heatsink.


----------



## Shiftlock

hugodrax said:


> Wow that is so dangerous, I hope that guy wore the proper eye protection. Pretty scary that it is so easy for anyone to just remove this module with three screws.



Yes, it is scary. Here's another neat video demonstrating the power of one of these diodes when properly driven and focused. It blows my mind that this kind of energy is coming out of a single diode, and I've worked with multi-watt lasers of all kinds. These really aren't toys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e4Y4Ey5498

Here's someone else demonstrating a nifty little build:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxKXxo44LAw


----------



## TheFathomlessBlue

Shiftlock said:


> These really aren't toys


 

No they are not. They are serious business, and most people that have been in to the hobby for a while know that. The noobs out there are playing with fire...


I ordered my .... eh er.. I mean I PRE-ORDERED my Artic on June 11th, and man the mess that has ensued is epic. I placed this order full knowing it was a gamble and unfortunatly the dice are still rolling. At least with Lucas Films threatening to sue, and the rummors of FDA involvment and even Homeland security.... (seriously, home land security... really?) it has been entertaining. Wonder what next...

At this pont I think it is still about 50/50 that they pull it off and fill thier orders buy the end of August.


----------



## Fat Boy

> I will promise you that.


 
Matt,
I completely don't get your fuzzy logic. You just explained in a post above that "It isn't false skepticism anymore", why oh why would you not have canceled your order by now??? Then you throw on top of this that you can build one for others at $215.00 and make that a promise, which I am not doubting, but again why in the world have you not canceled your order....I don't get it, and not that it matters. :shrug: It just seems like rambling and bitching without really taking any action. I am not trying to attack you, I just really don't get it. Good luck.


----------



## Shiftlock

TheFathomlessBlue said:


> At least with Lucas Films threatening to sue, and the rummors of FDA involvment and even Homeland security.... (seriously, home land security... really?) it has been entertaining. Wonder what next...



What, you haven't heard about the aliens raiding the WL manufacturing plant? Those pesky little grays stole the entire first production run of 445nm Arctics, hence the long shipping delay! 

Seriously though, the _Wicked Lasers Arctic Scandal of 2010™_ has been nothing if not entertaining.  That said, it is getting tiring and the moderators have made it clear this isn't the place.


----------



## Apollo Cree

Shiftlock said:


> Yes, it is scary. Here's another neat video demonstrating the power of one of these diodes when properly driven and focused. It blows my mind that this kind of energy is coming out of a single diode, and I've worked with multi-watt lasers of all kinds. These really aren't toys.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e4Y4Ey5498



That's some scary stuff. Maybe we'll be better off if these aren't available to the general public. I know a lot of morons who'll hurt someone with stuff like this.


----------



## matt304

Fat Boy said:


> Matt,
> I completely don't get your fuzzy logic. You just explained in a post above that "It isn't false skepticism anymore", why oh why would you not have canceled your order by now??? Then you throw on top of this that you can build one for others at $215.00 and make that a promise, which I am not doubting, but again why in the world have you not canceled your order....I don't get it, and not that it matters. :shrug: It just seems like rambling and bitching without really taking any action. I am not trying to attack you, I just really don't get it. Good luck.



Fuzzy logic? You seem to have the fuzzy logic. Do you have any idea of where I stand financially? Since you have no clue where I stand financially, you could probably assume that my financial situation might be a bit different than yours. And in my differing financial situation, I may make decisions which do not agree with decisions you would make in your specific financial situation, right? So how is that fuzzy logic--everyone needs to think and act as you would, or they must have a screw loose?

The fact of the matter is, I want their product in my hands to examine it. Have I and can I build bigger and better lasers? Yes, but that does not mean I do not want to see that product and examine it. I have people I know who will pay me what it's worth when I am done with it.

In the end, the $227 I paid for the product is not what I am upset over, not at all. I am upset because I don't have the product which I am trying to get from them, and I am not receiving email responses which I know they are reading. I am passing this info on so that people in more delicate financial situations may indeed want to cancel their order, or just realize that this is the kind of respect from them you had better be prepared for if you want to deal with them.

My goal is to examine that product. Fuzzy logic would be me asking for my money back, and then still believing I would ever get to review that product. 

Might be a waste in the end even wasting my time over them, but as a manufacturer, it never hurts examining what your competition is up to.  And if you want to know, all I am going to look for primarily is if they managed to do anything special with the diode focusing arrangement.


----------



## RoDnSuE

SmurfTacular said:


> Got this eMail from Wicked Lasers.
> 
> 
> 
> Basically, Lucasfilms is trying to sue Wicked Lasers because the Spyder III Arctic looks to much like a light saber. Lucas is taking to much credit for lasers. Its not like he invented them, he just put them in movies.
> 
> Please, everyone sign the petition so we can get our lasers!
> 
> As discssed earlier, this eMail was set to all Arctic customers, therefor is not a private eMail.


 
I signed the petition with this....

"I support this petition. Lucasfilms is just being greedy and attacking anything that they want to. My wife owns an item that is similar in shape to a lightsaber that she keeps by the bed.  It even makes a humming sound similar to a lightsaber. Want rights to it too, Mr. Lucas?"

Boy I hope me wife never reads this:devil:


----------



## ParishMc

i ordered one on june 15 and am not too concerned.
i have already decided that if i don't get it by aug 1 i will dispute the charge as fraud with amex.


----------



## senecaripple

Not sure how much longer i can wait before i lose any recourse with my credit card refund.


----------



## Shiftlock

With all major credit cards, you have 60 days from the billing date to dispute a charge. After that, things get a lot more difficult, and often you're SOL and fully responsible for paying the charge.


----------



## ejot

My buddy just got a shipping notification for his order. Two G1's.


----------



## riquif

ejot said:


> My buddy just got a shipping notification for his order. Two G1's.



Buddy here. Here's a screencap of the email I got.


----------



## senecaripple

Congrats. You must've ordered the first day it came out.


----------



## senecaripple

Congrats on your shipping notice. Maybe there's still hope for us. I'll check my email. Doubt i'll get one.


----------



## Shiftlock

Wow. If your order actually arrives, please post pics/video of the laser in action. At that point, I'm man enough to admit that I was entirely wrong to suspect/accuse WL of fraud. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about something, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

Can you tell us when you placed your order?


----------



## riquif

I've kept my hopes low thus far, and they will continue to be until I have it in my hands.

Fingers crossed. I need it for work! 

I will definitely post pictures and video the second it arrives.

EDIT: Oh, and I ordered it about 3 days after it was announced.


----------



## Shiftlock

riquif said:


> Fingers crossed. I need it for work!



Do you mind saying what you need it for? I'm just curious, because I think it's safe to say that most people on this forum who ordered one did so without a specific application in mind, and some people have questioned whether it even has a legitimate use.


----------



## riquif

I'm going to be using them for quick 'n dirty holography. Yes, there are cheaper ways (these diodes are about $40 a piece on eBay), but none of those can be put in your (large) pocket and played with afterward


----------



## Shiftlock

riquif said:


> I'm going to be using them for quick 'n dirty holography. Yes, there are cheaper ways (these diodes are about $40 a piece on eBay), but none of those can be put in your (large) pocket and played with afterward



These diodes may turn out to be good candidates for holography, since they've been found to run single longitudinal mode when they're not pushed very hard. There's some info on using these diodes for holography here:

http://hololaser.wordpress.com/2010/06/12/blue-frenzy-hits-the-holographer-too/


----------



## PhantomPhoton

I am looking forward to people receiving their artic III's and reviews of them next week if the shipping is actually true.


----------



## photon1c

Does anyone know what the different "lens kits" are that are available with the Arctic III? It says

Training Lens Kit included
Basic Lens kit +$14.99
Expanded Lens kit +$24.99


What do these 3 options mean?


----------



## TheFathomlessBlue

Holy Cow, They are actually shipping. Some more beam shot pictues as well over on LPF. 


http://laserpointerforums.com/f65/w...sion-news-valid-points-only-please-53572.html

This is a G1 model that is full power only. The glasses look nice, not what I would call "goggles".


----------



## ejot

photon1c said:


> Does anyone know what the different "lens kits" are that are available with the Arctic III? It says
> 
> Training Lens Kit included
> Basic Lens kit +$14.99
> Expanded Lens kit +$24.99
> 
> 
> What do these 3 options mean?


 
Basic & expanded kit descriptions are @ Laser Accessories -> Optics on the WL home page. Training lens kit is explained in Sypder III description. 




TheFathomlessBlue said:


> The glasses look nice, not what I would call "goggles".


I didn't think this is the style that ships with the laser. Hopefully he just ordered those in addition. They wouldn't fit over my eyeglasses. :thumbsdow


----------



## Raccoon

photon1c said:


> Does anyone know what the different "lens kits" are that are available with the Arctic III?



These "lens kits" are available for purchase on every laser page. They are simply a collection of prisms and glass that make pretty shiny stuff happen when lased.
They are NOT in any way direct accessories to the Arctic. Eg, they are not attachments. The "lens kits" are what a middle school science teacher might use to demonstrate light refraction, focusing, etc.

Edit: Apparently WL did put out a special lens kit for the Arctic. Refer to riquif's post below.


----------



## hugodrax

I wonder how long before we get reports of people getting holes burned in retinas, kids and pets being maimed etc..

With the Unwashed masses buying this to play with it like any other laser pointer I expect to start seeing the following happen.

#1 A few Morons buy this to be play as it was a toy.
#2 Injuries begin to result from #1
#3 The Media coverage and panic sets in (Think of the Children, Terrarists!! Danger!!)
#4 Nanny laws get put into place.


----------



## Raccoon

Its when people like you start repeating this rhetoric, that gives power and motivation to politicians to take away your rights as "unwashed masses".

Go chew on a cattle gate or something. 
__________________

The most dangerous word in the English language is: *What-if.*


----------



## riquif

photon1c said:


> Does anyone know what the different "lens kits" are that are available with the Arctic III? It says
> 
> Training Lens Kit included
> Basic Lens kit +$14.99
> Expanded Lens kit +$24.99
> 
> 
> What do these 3 options mean?



Though WL will sell you a little boxfull of lenses and prisms, I think that these refer to the Spider III attachment lenses (i.e. focusing lens, "flashlight" lens, etc.) Here are links to the basic and expanded kits:

http://www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/Spyder_III_Basic_Lens_Kit-98-28.html

http://www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/Spyder_III_Expanded_Lens_Kit-99-28.html

If you're kicking yourself because the video you saw on LPF doesn't burn things fast enough, get the lens kit. I recommend getting it from thinklasers.com. They carry all of WL's stuff at the same price and they're already here in the US. And though their shipping costs are also crazy, they at least don't charge you $29.99 shipping for EACH ITEM you ship, like WL does.


----------



## hugodrax

This does not look too good. 20 feet. It is a line.


----------



## wyager

These beam specs are a lot worse than the worst (at cleaning the dot) lenses we DIY laserers use...


----------



## StarHalo

hugodrax said:


> This does not look too good. 20 feet. It is a line.



I'd be more concerned about those burn marks on my camera's CCD..


----------



## Shiftlock

hugodrax said:


> This does not look too good. 20 feet. It is a line.



I assume that's with the "training lens" that is included with the laser. I wonder what it looks like with the $15 "basic lens" or the $25 "expanded lens"?


----------



## matt304

Shiftlock said:


> I assume that's with the "training lens" that is included with the laser. I wonder what it looks like with the $15 "basic lens" or the $25 "expanded lens"?



Shiftlock, non of those lenses you are talking about attach to the laser. They are big prisms and beam splitters, things that would sit on a counter top to play with. They use tricky words with usually different meanings in the laser world, such as "expanded", in an attempt to confuse you.

Well, now I have seen it all. Wicked performs video tricks to instill mad excitement in all of the fans, while the actual product has a poorer beam than even the worst lens I have tested on the 445nm. I was hoping there was something possibly to be learned from WL in their lens design, but not so. Looks like I can cancel my order after all.


----------



## ejot

matt304 said:


> Shiftlock, non of those lenses you are talking about attach to the laser. They are big prisms and beam splitters, things that would sit on a counter top to play with. They use tricky words with usually different meanings in the laser world, such as "expanded", in an attempt to confuse you.


 
 Presumably you haven't even read the item descriptions? 



And yes, the rectangle is awful. I'm eager to see how the focusing attachment works.


----------



## matt304

ejot said:


> Presumably you haven't even read the item descriptions?
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, the rectangle is awful. I'm eager to see how the focusing attachment works.



ejot,

I have read the descriptions, it's just hard to keep up with WL descriptions that change on a weekly basis. Wicked just added those pictures recently. Before, they had the same "expanded" lens kits as they offered for other lasers, which consisted of prisms and such you would set on a table, because they had photos of it all laid out.

Non the less, those lens kits don't do anything to improve the beam quality. In fact all those lenses make the beam horribly worse. The "focused" beam is something you can do with any lens, simply by moving it a little further away from the diode by backing it out. All that does is bring the light to a pinprick, and the dot becomes huge at distance. The funny thing is, you cannot really focus a 445nm to a pinprick. When the wide axis is small, the small axis is wide, and vice verse. So it's more a gimmick that they try to sell you something that does just that.


----------



## jellydonut

Man, am I relieved I didn't order this thing. That's not a laser, it's a throwy blue LED flashlight.:nana:


----------



## Shiftlock

matt304 said:


> Non the less, those lens kits don't do anything to improve the beam quality. In fact all those lenses make the beam horribly worse. The "focused" beam is something you can do with any lens, simply by moving it a little further away from the diode by backing it out. All that does is bring the light to a pinprick, and the dot becomes huge at distance. The funny thing is, you cannot really focus a 445nm to a pinprick. When the wide axis is small, the small axis is wide, and vice verse. So it's more a gimmick that they try to sell you something that does just that.



The additional lenses WL is selling (which do attach to the laser and are not prisms that sit on the table) must do something to the beam, and I am still interested to see how they change it at various distances. I can't imagine they make it any worse, especially since they're calling them training, basic, and expanded, and charging incrementally more for each lens (free, $15, and $25, respectively). It has to be possible to collimate the beam to better than what appears (although it's hard to tell from the pictures I've seen) to be eight inches at 20 feet. That beam is spreading more than a Venezuelan prostitute.


----------



## ejot

There is only one focusing lens. Basic and expanded refer to the number of gimmicky attachments you get in your kit. 

And I agree it won't collimate the beam or focus to a perfect point. It must increase the intensity at the focal point somewhat, though.... ?


----------



## matt304

Shiftlock said:


> The additional lenses WL is selling (which do attach to the laser and are not prisms that sit on the table) must do something to the beam, and I am still interested to see how they change it at various distances. I can't imagine they make it any worse, especially since they're calling them training, basic, and expanded, and charging incrementally more for each lens (free, $15, and $25, respectively). It has to be possible to collimate the beam to better than what appears (although it's hard to tell from the pictures I've seen) to be eight inches at 20 feet. That beam is spreading more than a Venezuelan prostitute.



Then dude, if you are so interested and want to imagine the effects they have on the beam, why don't you click on the photo and see for yourself what they actually do?

Expanded kit:
http://www.wickedlasers.com/images/products/secondary/302.jpg

Just like I said, they do nothing for making the beam more collimated, and they all make the beam horribly worse.

It is entirely possible to collimate the beam better. You first have to understand the physics at hand. Light is diverging differently along two different axis. WL did nothing to fix that. They put an aspheric lens in front of the diode. That is the norm, it's just that DIYers have experimented and found better aspheric lenses. The DIY lenses don't correct the beam fully either, but they make the effect less pronounced.

The only true way to correct the beam is to shape it. That requires either a cylindrical lens followed by an aspheric, or an anamorphic prism pair followed by an aspheric.

The easiest method in my opinion would be to use a mounted prism pair, but they are like $300+. They don't have to be this much, anyone making optics could build them for very cheap. I just don't happen to make optics, and am still on the hunt for a set. I did find an unmounted set coated for 405nm, and I think it will work for 445nm pretty well. The problem is that set is still about $130.

The cheaper route would be a cylindrical lens, but you would need to buy a few of them, and a few aspherics, and test the combinations together to find the best beam. I myself am after cylindrical lenses as well, because I could make the mount pretty easily. It's just that the sources I have are not wallet friendly, and they want a ton of money for those little buggers.


----------



## Juggernaut

Sure, the “attached lens do adjusts the beam, but not to help at long range. As my extremely rudimentary diagram shows:
 



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The function of the different lens / and stock lens. The additional lens do not help long range beam focusing. Dragon Lasers sells a device that allows the user to adjust the beam from a short focal point burning setting, to a long range near infinite focus, such a device might help, but it will not fit the arctic. 
 
Just for reference my L.Y.L.L. Incandescent super thrower has a beam of 2.3 inches X 6.1 inches on a white wall 20 feet away. This is a flashlight…….., I’d hope no laser would be less focused then that……


----------



## senecaripple

looks lie wl rushed these lasers w/o any care for quality control.

may reconsider asking for a refund. or a chargeback, as i don't think they have me on record for the purchase.


----------



## Shiftlock

matt304 said:


> ...but they are like $300+...
> 
> The problem is that set is still about $130...
> 
> It's just that the sources I have are not wallet friendly...



Strange, I got the impression from this post that finances aren't an issue for you:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3466623&postcount=441

Where you said:



matt304 said:


> ...my financial situation might be a bit different than yours.
> 
> I may make decisions which do not agree with decisions you would make in your specific financial situation...
> 
> ...the $227 I paid for the product is not what I am upset over, not at all.
> 
> ...people in more delicate financial situations may indeed want to cancel their order...



Whatever, doesn't matter.


----------



## hugodrax

What a disaster. This is gonna be a very interesting few weeks. I wonder if the money from the orders was used to buy the projectors and parts to build and ship.

But the problem is if everyone tries to head for the exits, you will end up with a collapse like what happened to the people who gave Madoff money.


----------



## Juggernaut

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The average door is 30 inches across, it takes 3 hot spots to span the door, the hot spot is approximately twice as wide as it is tall thus the hot spot at 20 feet is: 10 inches X 5 inches. This equates out to a beam with a divergence of 2.4 degrees X 1.2 degrees. The Maxabeam short arc has a beam divergence of 1 degree. Again for a comparisons. Variables include how large the exact hot spot it, but the picture looks pretty underexposed, so I’d think the whole thing was it, and whether the beam shot was taken at exactly 20 feet. 
 
Just my 2 cents.


----------



## matt304

Shiftlock said:


> Strange, I got the impression from this post that finances aren't an issue for you:
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3466623&postcount=441
> 
> Where you said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever, doesn't matter.



You're building a quick reputation as a complete [email protected]!&.

You seem to be forgetting the fact that it's not what I am paying, it is what I am passing on to the customers for them to pay. Do you think my customers want to pay an extra $300 for a lens on their laser?

Get with reality.


----------



## Shiftlock

hugodrax said:


> What a disaster. This is gonna be a very interesting few weeks. I wonder if the money from the orders was used to buy the projectors and parts to build and ship.
> 
> But the problem is if everyone tries to head for the exits, you will end up with a collapse like what happened to the people who gave Madoff money.



Do you really think they sourced all those diodes from Casio projectors? Perhaps I guess, but with the quantity they needed to fill all the orders received, plus future orders, I'm assuming they at least contacted Nichia directly about a bulk order. I wonder what kind of price they would quote for a quantity of 50,000 diodes? Maybe around $1 million? I have no idea, but now that they're set up for mass production of these diodes, it can't cost very much to turn them out.


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

Juggernaut said:


> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> The average door is 30 inches across, it takes 3 hot spots to span the door, the hot spot is approximately twice as wide as it is tall thus the hot spot at 20 feet is: 10 inches X 5 inches. This equates out to a beam with a divergence of 2.4 degrees X 1.2 degrees. The Maxabeam short arc has a beam divergence of 1 degree. Again for a comparisons. Variables include how large the exact hot spot it, but the picture looks pretty underexposed, so I’d think the whole thing was it, and whether the beam shot was taken at exactly 20 feet.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.



I don't think it was focused correctly in that picture.... at 15 feet with just a run-of-the-mill aixiz acrylic it's a pretty sharp line.


----------



## DM51

matt304... Calling someone a complete fool is not acceptable. Please edit it out of your post, and keep this discussion CIVIL.


----------



## FNinjaP90

Juggernaut said:


> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> The average door is 30 inches across, it takes 3 hot spots to span the door, the hot spot is approximately twice as wide as it is tall thus the hot spot at 20 feet is: 10 inches X 5 inches. This equates out to a beam with a divergence of 2.4 degrees X 1.2 degrees. The Maxabeam short arc has a beam divergence of 1 degree. Again for a comparisons. Variables include how large the exact hot spot it, but the picture looks pretty underexposed, so I’d think the whole thing was it, and whether the beam shot was taken at exactly 20 feet.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.



It looks like the picture was taken from farther than 20 feet. You don't see the laser itself in the shot but it seems that the camera is pretty far away from that wall and door.


----------



## matt304

DM51 said:


> matt304... Calling someone a complete fool is not acceptable. Please edit it out of your post, and keep this discussion CIVIL.



You're shooting down what I have said, but not minding the guy who wants to sit there and target other peoples comments while contributing nothing.


----------



## Shiftlock

matt304 said:


> You're building a quick reputation as a complete fool.



I'm not going to let this turn into a childish game of insults, but regarding my reputation here, I was importing high power DPSS lasers and selling them to members of this forum almost two years before you were a member here. If you doubt it, those sales threads from 2004/5 still exist. I'm not new to lasers or this forum, so please don't condescendingly tell me what kind of reputation I'm building.

I typed out another paragraph, but I deleted it in the interest of preventing this thread from degrading into crap. I'll just say that there's often a fine line between being knowledgeable and being patronizing on an internet forum.


----------



## matt304

Shiftlock said:


> I'm not going to let this turn into a childish game of insults, but regarding my reputation here, I was importing high power DPSS lasers and selling them to members of this forum almost two years before you were a member here. If you doubt it, those sales threads from 2004/5 still exist. I'm not new to lasers or this forum, so please don't condescendingly tell me what kind of reputation I'm building.
> 
> I typed out another paragraph, but I deleted it in the interest of preventing this thread from degrading into crap. I'll just say that there's often a fine line between being knowledgeable and being patronizing on an internet forum.



And you choose to convey this long-standing knowledge by taking childish stabs at me and how you view my financial situation!

Sorry bud, ain't no way you are gonna take your low blows on me, and then turn around ranting about what you are at this place, acting as if I'm the only one who tangoed. You would have been better off not looking for something to start an argument over, but you did. That right there is enough documentation for me, without you pointing to clues I should look at to figure out who you are. Selling things on a forum is small potatoes towards character when you are portraying yourself differently with other behavioral methods.

I won't go any further than that, but you asked for it to begin with. I'll leave it alone from here on out.


----------



## Shiftlock

matt304 said:


> And you choose to convey this long-standing knowledge by taking childish stabs at me and how you view my financial situation!
> 
> Sorry bud, ain't no way you are gonna take your low blows on me, and then turn around ranting about what you are at this place, acting as if I'm the only one who tangoed. You would have been better off not looking for something to start an argument over, but you did. That right there is enough documentation for me, without you pointing to clues I should look at to figure out who you are. Selling things on a forum is small potatoes towards character when you are portraying yourself differently with other behavioral methods.
> 
> I won't go any further than that, but you asked for it to begin with. I'll leave it alone from here on out.



Unbelievable. What was I saying about being condescending, Mr. Large Potatoes?  Calm down, man. You may have the last word if you like. Go ahead and reply to this. Make it a good one, then the tiff is over, else this thread will no doubt be closed. No more out of me and my "small potatoes." Cheers.


----------



## Juggernaut

Arguing in CPF! What has this world come to? I’ve seen more debates in threads in the last few months then I’ve seen in years!
 
Anyways, back on subject, I to would agree the camera seems more then 20 feet away, and I don’t see the laser in the foreground, leading me to think that it is farther away, I’d love to know how much, I was only told 20 feet.


----------



## StarHalo

I'm pretty sure I mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread that you can't tell the shape of a beam from a standard photograph..


----------



## DM51

matt304... by arguing the toss with me, you are close to being in violation of Rule 8, to go along with your infractions of Rule 4. 

Shiftlock... your name-calling in your most recent post moves you into the same territory regarding Rule 4. 

I am warning both of you... keep the dicussion civil, or you will face corrective action. If you have a personal dispute, take it elsewhere.


----------



## Wakko

They can always Jello wrestle civilly! 

Where is that photo of the beamshot originally posted? I clicked the link, but the thread on LP was deleted.


----------



## DM51

Wakko said:


> They can always Jello wrestle


What happens if you lose at jello wrestling? You have to eat the jello? :green:


----------



## Shiftlock

DM51 said:


> matt304... by arguing the toss with me, you are close to being in violation of Rule 8, to go along with your infractions of Rule 4.
> 
> Shiftlock... your name-calling in your most recent post moves you into the same territory regarding Rule 4.
> 
> I am warning both of you... keep the dicussion civil, or you will face corrective action. If you have a personal dispute, take it elsewhere.



Understood. I was really just kidding around with the "large potatoes" comment, not trying to escalate the situation or name calling. I was just trying to make light of being called "small potatoes" so hopefully the situation would end with a smile.  Anyway, enough with the nonsense, back on topic...

So now that some people have received these units, has anyone measured the power output? I suppose it's still early to ask for input current measurements.


----------



## riquif

Haven't gotten mine yet...


----------



## hugodrax

So who here received one?


----------



## LuxLuthor

Juggernaut said:


> The average door is 30 inches across, it takes 3 hot spots to span the door, the hot spot is approximately twice as wide as it is tall thus the hot spot at 20 feet is: 10 inches X 5 inches. This equates out to a beam with a divergence of 2.4 degrees X 1.2 degrees. *The Maxabeam short arc has a beam divergence of 1 degree.* Again for a comparisons. Variables include how large the exact hot spot it, but the picture looks pretty underexposed, so I’d think the whole thing was it, and whether the beam shot was taken at exactly 20 feet.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.



I'm appreciating my MaxaBeam after seeing this thread.


----------



## FNinjaP90

_Baiting post removed_


----------



## matt304

_Baiting post removed._


----------



## ejot

It's a shame this situation brings out such bad blood all around. Look at what happened to (all) the Sypder III threads over at LPF. 
I really wish we could get this back on track so we don't lose our thread and the chance to start a new one. Someone here is expecting two of these early next week and it would be nice to have an avenue open on CPF to share the impressions. :candle:


----------



## TheFathomlessBlue

Hey this thread is nothing compared to LPF, the had three "discussion"threads on the arctic that were massive, 100-200 pages. There was NO information in them. There is a reason I have been a member here for three years and never joined over there...

So after thiniking it over I have infact bailed on my Arctic.

:fail:

I decided that givin this type of laser is becomming a common product with other manufacturers now sucessfully getting them produced and distributed. I will look elsewere... Like CNI for example. They have the PLG-III-C available with this diode. I would MUCH rather purchase form them. To my amazement it wasn't that much more expensive either.

I was infact amazed after trying to contact Wicked about about the G1/G2 issue and getting NO responce, as soon as I wrote an e-mail to cancel my order 47xxx I got a responce in minutes. A few minutes later rbsworldpay refunded me. As far as I am concered the Way WL has conducted business is simply just not acceptable.


----------



## Raccoon

*[size=+2]New Thread Rule.[/size]

All further discussion on this thread is prohibited; UNLESS
you presently have in your possession a [size=+1]Spyder III Pro Arctic[/size];
AND you are sharing [size=+1]new[/size] and [size=+1]unique[/size] information about the same;
AND you include at least 1 high-resolution [size=+1]image[/size] or [size=+1]video[/size] about the same;
AND you are [size=+1]not trolling[/size] or [size=+1]whining[/size] or [size=+1]attacking[/size] or breaking any other forum rules.
You may NOT post to this thread unless ALL of the above conditions are met.*


*[size=+2]If You Need To Get Something Off Your Chest[/size]

You are welcome to use any of the following [size=+1]Live Chat[/size] resources available to this forum and other laser forums.
[size=+1]Candle Power Forums Underground IRC Channel[/size]
--> (server: irc.slashnet.org | channel: #cpf)


[size=+1]Laser Pointer Forums Official IRC Channel[/size] --- http://laserchat.org/ (webchat)
--> (server: irc.ecnet.org | channel: #laserchat)


[size=+1]Laser Pointer Forums Underground IRC Channel[/size]
--> (server: irc.slashnet.org | channel: #lpf)

If you need to download an IRC client, you may try any of the following:

[*]Windows Software:
mIRC | XChat | ChatZilla (Firefox Plugin) | Pidgin | Miranda IM | IceChat | HydraIRC


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[*]Macintosh Software:
Snak | Ircle | ChatZilla (Firefox Plugin) | (Linux Software)

Visit Wikipedia for more information on IRC and other IRC Client options.
*

*[size=+2]Again ... This thread is [size=+3]Closed[/size] to
chatting, bickering, fighting, and all posts that
do not meet the criteria in the above rules![/size]*

End.


----------



## Shiftlock

Wow... just, wow... 

Can I make some "New Thread Rules" too? Or should we leave the rule making up to the moderators?  I think it's about time this thread be closed. I sense nothing good in it's future. Nothing at all. Going downhill fast.

"End."


----------



## StarHalo

The thread has been fine for those of us who have simply waited patiently. There isn't any need to fill the interim with endless speculation and rumor-based opinion and guesstimation and bickering. The first reviews will be in soon, there'll be stories and pictures, it'll be fun..


----------



## senecaripple

and there alot of folks here that is still waiting for their artics, like moi. and this keeps us posted on the current status of others. if many more decide to wait it out i may too, else, i too may be be canceling, depending on the consensus.


----------



## Shiftlock

Very good points. I stand corrected.


----------



## Flaptipulon

Hey all,

I’m kind of new at the participation thing in the forums here, but I can’t help but feel like it would be a shame for this thread to be closed right now. I agree that unfortunately this thread has had some issues with:

Continuity 

Politics being aired in an off-topic way

Arguing 

Useless jargon, etc.

But at some point the wait will be over and people will be (hopefully) receiving their orders, which will mean reviews, pics, etc. which is good for everyone here. And if I’m wrong and nobody gets their laser (or it just sucks) then well, the silver lining will be that the people who get short changed will post about it and help to inform others like myself who keep coming so close to pushing the button and then chickening out for fear of bad business, false claims/specs or whatever. 

Anyway, I still feel this thread is current and valid, at least for the time being, and I for one would like to see how this whole thing turns out in the end.


----------



## Apollo Cree

Raccoon said:


> *[SIZE=+2]New Thread Rule.[/SIZE]
> 
> All further discussion on this thread is prohibited; UNLESS*



Raccoon, I'm sorry, but your userid doesn't say moderator, your ID isn't highlighted like the other moderators, you're not listed as the moderator for this forum, as far as can tell, and I couldn't find a listing of moderators on this site. 

Are you a moderator or staff member for this site, Raccoon?


----------



## Turboman7

I will look elsewere... Like CNI for example. They have the PLG-III-C available with this diode. I would MUCH rather purchase form them. To my amazement it wasn't that much more expensive either.

I was infact amazed after trying to contact Wicked about about the G1/G2 issue and getting NO responce, as soon as I wrote an e-mail to cancel my order 47xxx I got a responce in minutes. A few minutes later rbsworldpay refunded me. As far as I am concered the Way WL has conducted business is simply just not acceptable.[/QUOTE]


Hey TheFathomlessBlue,

I might bail on my order as well. I tried a search for CNI and PLG-III-C, but I was unable to find anything. Who and where can I find any info. I might try to build my own, if not I might go your route.

Thx for any info.


----------



## senecaripple

close to the panic state for me if i don not hear from WL real soon.
how long does chase allow chargebacks? hope i wont be too late.


----------



## Juggernaut

I canceled my order a while back, it’s not that I’m inpatient, but I really needed it for a camping trip, and it’s to late now, I’ll probably just go down another avenue. There is plenty of things begging to get a hold of my limited funds. Also I had a very quick response to my canceled order and got my money back quickly. So that’s good:twothumbs.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Juggernaut said:


> ...it’s not that I’m inpatient, but I really needed it for a camping trip...



Eh? You needed a one watt laser for a camping trip? Please enlighten us... :tinfoil:


----------



## ejot

I'm not bailing, they'll come. Well, they'll get _sent_.:sweat:
And still worth the price despite the shortcomings. It was widely discussed that the specs were impossible from the very beginning so this is in line with what I was expecting. Sure the marketing is deceptive and it's a disguised prepay. That's unfortunate, but at least refunds are quickly going to those who request them. 

Hopefully the profit on the units that are shipping is sufficient to continue supporting these order cancellations. It's still not clear whether WL's big gamble will pay off. :shrug:


----------



## Wakko

One of the guys on another board I frequent has a friend that got his Gen1. He stated that the focus was terrible, as has been previously reported. It's a line at 50 feet.


----------



## TheFathomlessBlue

My choice wasnt based on waiting for delivery, I just prefer the other product.

The information i got form my correspondance with CNI sounds much more realistic than wicked. They claim a 5mm output at aperature form the diode but have the divergence at or less than 1.5mrad with output exceeding 1000mW and I would trust CNI to deliver what they specify. Plus the PGL-III-C host has been around for a long time and CNI builds good driver circuitry. I also prefer the Cr-123's since I have them around for my flashlights. We all know these diodes are inexpensive, we pay for the host and circutry to power the thing. Wicked has a nice looking product that is for sure. I just don't trust the QC on the Arctic.


----------



## ejot

Two G1's just showed up at work. :devil:
They come EMS. :thumbsup:
Unboxing now....


----------



## riquif

ejot said:


> Two G1's just showed up at work. :devil:
> They come EMS. :thumbsup:
> Unboxing now....



Like ejot said, they come EMS and took 6 days. These are G1s.

Here are some quick shots. No good light around here and I'm not going to get my flashes out, but you get the idea. They each come with an el-cheapo IMR (or at least what they claim to be IMR) and single cell charger. I'll post more details later (beam, etc.)

I hope my lens kit is on its way by now...


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

first power test I've seen shows a peak of ~750mW that steadily declines steadily by about 25mW/3 minutes as the host heats up. To be expected.

Also, "beam-corrective optics" = collimating lens


----------



## Juggernaut

PhotonWrangler said:


> Eh? You needed a one watt laser for a camping trip? Please enlighten us... :tinfoil:


 
I was going camping out on a way _out of the way_ spot on the edge of Cap cod MA. Only a small single lane dirt road to get to the place, the view was from a cliff 40 feet over the ocean, from it one could see the tip off the Cap 16 miles off, and in every direction small islands and shorelines doted the horizon from 5 miles away to the above 16 miles. The night skies were completely black, no electricity this far out. Literally the most perfect place for flashaholics and laser hobbyist alike.


----------



## Wakko

Updates?


----------



## senecaripple

Wakko said:


> Updates?




not from WL. :fail::fail::fail: may be calling cc for charge back by weeks end!


----------



## Wakko

No, not from WL. Obviously they're shipping, so I don't question that mine will arrive...it's just a matter of when. I'd like updates from the two folks on here that got them.


----------



## Fat Boy

I don't care if they take another month. I ordered 2-G2s and if they take more time to iron out the problems, then all the better for me.


----------



## hugodrax

Amazed that these things have shipped and yet not one proper review,hands on etc..


----------



## Raccoon

Very few people here actually have the literary skills to conduct a 'proper review'. There have been a smattering of pictures of beam shots and dot shots, but typical of average forum members, they lack any actual details or measurements.

It's still anyone's guess the actual divergence until someone takes a measured 100 meter distance shot, with x/y scale measurements of the target. This will likely never happen since people drop off the forum immediately after receiving theirs.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

In related news, Lucasfilm has rescinded their Cease & Desist order regarding this laser.


----------



## matt304

Raccoon said:


> Very few people here actually have the literary skills to conduct a 'proper review'. There have been a smattering of pictures of beam shots and dot shots, but typical of average forum members, they lack any actual details or measurements.
> 
> It's still anyone's guess the actual divergence until someone takes a measured 100 meter distance shot, with x/y scale measurements of the target. This will likely never happen since people drop off the forum immediately after receiving theirs.



No kidding.

I explained in another thread how simple it is to do.

1. Take a white paper with a 2x2" square printed on it.

2. Measure distance of 50 yards.

3. Place video camera in middle, up close to paper. Start video recording.

4. At 50 yards distance, rest laser, and shine the paper slowly all over its surface in and around the printed square.

5. Review video on computer frame-by-frame, look for frame showing dot in center of square.

6. Screen-shot ('Print Screen' button and paste) photo of dot and post it for beam size and shape documentation.

:thumbsup:


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found

Raccoon said:


> Very few people here actually have the literary skills to conduct a 'proper review'. There have been a smattering of pictures of beam shots and dot shots, but typical of average forum members, they lack any actual details or measurements.
> 
> It's still anyone's guess the actual divergence until someone takes a measured 100 meter distance shot, with x/y scale measurements of the target. This will likely never happen since people drop off the forum immediately after receiving theirs.


 
Wow, thanks for the insult you've directed at the majority of CPFers. Though, I can't even begin to agree with your premise. First you start with "literary skills" and then finish with details, beam shots, and measurements. The ability to string together big words in a gramatically correct fashion has nothing to do with the ability to operate a camera and load pictures to a picture hosting website; nor does it have anything to do with the fact of whether one does or does not own a light meter, a set of calipers, an integrated sphere, etc.


----------



## Wakko

:goodjob:


----------



## Raccoon

was.lost.but.now.found said:


> Wow, thanks for the insult you've directed at the majority of CPFers. Though, I can't even begin to agree with your premise. First you start with "literary skills" and then finish with details, beam shots, and measurements. The ability to string together big words in a gramatically correct fashion has nothing to do with the ability to operate a camera and load pictures to a picture hosting website; nor does it have anything to do with the fact of whether one does or does not own a light meter, a set of calipers, an integrated sphere, etc.



I'm afraid literary skill includes more than just the education to "string together big words in a grammatically correct fashion". It requires the gumption to actually sit down and write something meaningful. It includes the ability to conduct meaningful research, present the results in a meaningful way, and include meaningful reference to your work. I've observed only a handful of individuals on this site with those capabilities. I'm not saying those without are any less of a person; the numbers are probably consistent the American population in general, which reflects the majority membership of this forum.

My complaint is about people who ONLY possess the ability to operate a camera and load pictures to a hosting website. Even those who have used calipers to measure the width of the beam, and went out of their way to take photographs and share them, lack the simple foresight to measure the distance of the laser from the target so their measurement has some purpose. What's the point of posting half-cocked research, besides confusing everyone here?


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

May as well stop griping, every internet forum has a bunch of trash mixed in with the gems. You can see by my post count that I'm quite a litterbug :nana:

Reviews wouldn't be too useful yet. How are we to know that they reviewed a working unit and not a crap one? There have already been reports of these lasers coming with lens barrels that aren't tightened enough. This means that depending on how you shake the laser and how the 3 lenses align, your power output, divergence, beam pattern, all change. 

On a lighter note, more DIY builds and other sources for 445nm are starting to catch up.


----------



## Shiftlock

bshanahan14rulz said:


> There have already been reports of these lasers coming with lens barrels that aren't tightened enough. This means that depending on how you shake the laser and how the 3 lenses align, your power output, divergence, beam pattern, all change.



You gotta love that quality Chinese manufacturing.  Maybe this is another safety feature. You have to learn how to shake it just right before it will operate at maximum. Your buddy flips it on and gets a wide low-power beam. You grab it, give it two shakes and a quick flick to the left, and BAM, it's a monster!


----------



## hugodrax

I suspect we are not seeing proud reviews and pictures of this new toy because they got the laser and it is a disappointing product so no one wants to post about this laser.


----------



## R11GS

It looks like a lot of people have gotten the gen1 units. There's a lot of chatter about them [by the children] on LPF and lasercommunity. Plenty of reports about bad QC - particularly the lens assembly coming loose so that they defocus but it sounds like 99+% of the problems can be easily corrected by the users if they're willing and able to do some very basic tweaking. Forums tend to amplify the bad so it's probable that there are plenty of happy users but who knows.

There's been a few "reviews" where folks have put them to power meters and done some back-of-the-envelope divergence calculations but what I've seen were mostly done by people that aren't real good at doing a quality "review". Power seems to be typically in the 700's of mw's which is what a lot of folks expected from these and the divergence on the properly focused ones seems good...


----------



## WadeF

QC aside, I assume the units people are getting are capable of doing serious harm, at least to people's eye sight? It was brought to my attention that users on one of our forums have been talking about this laser. The word is certainly out there about this laser and its low price. I posted a few warning posts so if any of the "kids" on our forum get a hold of one of these they will hopefully be careful with it. 

Some posters were joking about them being used to shine at air planes, etc. I just hope someone doesn't blind a pilot, someone performing on stage, or at a sporting event, etc.  All we need is to see a baseball player's face light up blue and have them blinded for life.


----------



## Raccoon

WadeF: Spoken like a true FOX News anchor.

Thanks for the contribution.


----------



## Shiftlock

WadeF said:


> Some posters were joking about them being used to shine at air planes, etc. I just hope someone doesn't blind a pilot, someone performing on stage, or at a sporting event, etc.  All we need is to see a baseball player's face light up blue and have them blinded for life.



It can be dangerous, but it won't exactly blind someone for life at any distance. This has been discussed ad nauseam. Any idiot who points a laser at an airplane is risking arrest, and rightfully so. This is exactly the reason I stopped selling lasers years ago. There weren't many people selling high power DPSS lasers in the US back then, and I was contacted by an FBI agent in New Jersey who was investigating an incident of someone shining a laser at an airplane. He was demanding the names/addresses of everyone who had purchased a high power green DPSS laser from me. I didn't return his call, so he showed up at my doorstep in Connecticut early one morning. They take these incidents very seriously.


----------



## senecaripple

well, written to them 3 xs, no status. guess the next time i have a really bad day, i will call my cc co. and just make a charge back, if i'm not too late.:fail::shakehead


----------



## Tron2

*Re: latest shipping info*

Just received this email today. New to this forum, I ordered on July 9th after reading about it on Gizmodo. Just started looking around for forums and reviews and noticed this site. 

----------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:42:19 -0700
From: "Wicked Lasers - Sales & Customer Service" 
To: 
Subject: Re: order 
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-Autoreply: yes
X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.61 on 

Dear Wicked Lasers customer,

Arctics have began shipping on the 15th of July. Due to the last-minute
implementation of the SmartSwitch as well as a high volume of orders,
customers who purchased first will receive priority status in the
order of shipping. In order to avoid customs-related delays, we will
not be providing tracking numbers for Arctic orders at this time. You
will be notified when your order is shipped out and you'll receive the
date when the package is scheduled to be delivered. Most current
Arctic customers should receive their shipment notification emails
sometime next week. We did not expect so many orders and we feel that
the addition of extra safety features is a good idea even though it's
taking us longer.


If for any reason, you would like to receive a refund prior to
shipping, please notify us immediately by sending us an email with
"Cancel order [order number]" in the subject field.

G2 Arctic lasers (with the Smartswitch) are taking longer than
anticipated to manufacture and will be delayed for one week. G1 Arctic
lasers (without the Smartswitch) are ready to be shipped and all
emails requesting for G1 Arctics will be shipped in the order the
request is received. Most of our efforts are put towards the
production of the new G2 Arctic with the smartswitch technology.

If you wish to receive a G1 instead of a G2 please send us an email
with "Send G1 - Order [order number]" in the subject field.

The new Arctic's price ($299,95) will not affect customers who have
already purchased. The new $299,95 price is only effective for orders
placed after July 24th.

If your question was about a Pulsar or Lunar, we will be getting them
in stock this week and in consequence they will begin shipping next
week or sooner.

If you want to know why your payment hasn't been deducted from your
bank account it is most probably because we often don't capture
payments until we're ready to ship your order.

If your question was about the price difference between the Spyder III
532nm laser and the Arctic laser, it's because they have different
manufacturing processes. The Spyder III 532nm laser has crystals
inside that convert IR light (1064nm) to green light (532nm) thus
making the final product more expensive due to precision alignment of
the crystals.

Should you require further assistance don't hesitate to contact us.
We're very sorry about the inconveniences and delays. We appreciate
your patience and look forward to doing business with you again.

-- 
Best regards,
Wicked Lasers
Customer Service


----------



## wyager

Just so you know, these things have been failing left and right. After a day or two of use, the LEDs will still work but it won't lase.


----------



## Shiftlock

wyager said:


> Just so you know, these things have been failing left and right. After a day or two of use, the LEDs will still work but it won't lase.



From what I've heard, the max output is around 750mW, which should be easy for this diode. Assuming the diodes themselves aren't faulty, that would tend to indicate inadequate cooling in the design. Interesting, but not really surprising. I bet the diode isn't making adequate contact with the heatsink, along with not enough thermal mass or heat-dissipating surface area in/on the heatsink.


----------



## Tron2

wyager said:


> Just so you know, these things have been failing left and right. After a day or two of use, the LEDs will still work but it won't lase.



Can you show us your source of info? I didn't notice anything like your comment on the laserpowerforum. Those kind of comments are akin to those shots taken at Toyota. 10-15 cars with accelerator problems from millions of produced cars. And all Toyotas's are called crap. Even though none of the accelerator problems could be reproduced.

Speculation can be defined as reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition. Show us your sources or links for these lasers that are failing.

Don't we all hate exaggeration.


----------



## Dave 300

Do you think we could produce a good fix for heat sinking these or is it just a short matter if time before they pack up? I guess we could then fit our own 1 watters!!


----------



## wyager

Shiftlock said:


> From what I've heard, the max output is around 750mW, which should be easy for this diode. Assuming the diodes themselves aren't faulty, that would tend to indicate inadequate cooling in the design. Interesting, but not really surprising. I bet the diode isn't making adequate contact with the heatsink, along with not enough thermal mass or heat-dissipating surface area in/on the heatsink.



Most of us at LPF don't think this is the problem. It appears to be a case of a sh*tty driver.


----------



## hugodrax

Now I understand why I am not seeing people talk about the Spyder III pros they have received in the mail. The posts over at laserpointerforums are pretty negative in terms of QC and quality of the beam etc.. 

People having to take apart a 200+ pointer to repair poor QC


----------



## wyager

Tron2 said:


> Can you show us your source of info? I didn't notice anything like your comment on the laserpowerforum. Those kind of comments are akin to those shots taken at Toyota. 10-15 cars with accelerator problems from millions of produced cars. And all Toyotas's are called crap. Even though none of the accelerator problems could be reproduced.
> 
> Speculation can be defined as reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition. Show us your sources or links for these lasers that are failing.
> 
> Don't we all hate exaggeration.


Are you implying I'm exaggerating? Go look around, it's painfully clear these things aren't working properly. There are multiple threads with titles like "arctic broke on the first day".



hugodrax said:


> Now I understand why I am not seeing people talk about the Spyder III pros they have received in the mail. The posts over at laserpointerforums are pretty negative in terms of QC and quality of the beam etc..
> 
> People having to take apart a 200+ pointer to repair poor QC



Yep, most beam problems were easy to fix but a driver problem is unacceptable. Of course if we're lucky the problems are unique to G1, and whenever G2 ships most of them could be rectified.


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

Anybody here who gets one of these, pm me if you are getting rid of the battery that it came with for a higher-capacity battery. I'm not selling, but I'd like the low-capacity 18650 if otherwise you are just recycling it.
lovecpf


----------



## Shiftlock

wyager said:


> Most of us at LPF don't think this is the problem. It appears to be a case of a sh*tty driver.



(I thought I already posted a message last night similar to what I'm about to, but I don't see it, so here goes again.)

Huh... Interesting. There's nothing special about the driver on this laser, and a current-control driver should be a relatively simple circuit made from standard off-the-shelf parts. Unless they've used underrated components, which would be a dumb mistake, it shouldn't be a common point of failure. Does anybody know what exactly is failing on the driver? It should be easy to diagnose once the laser is disassembled and the driver is within reach, although maybe people are reluctant to do that if the laser is under warranty.


----------



## wyager

Shiftlock said:


> (I thought I already posted a message last night similar to what I'm about to, but I don't see it, so here goes again.)
> 
> Huh... Interesting. There's nothing special about the driver on this laser, and a current-control driver should be a relatively simple circuit made from standard off-the-shelf parts. Unless they've used underrated components, which would be a dumb mistake, it shouldn't be a common point of failure. Does anybody know what exactly is failing on the driver? It should be easy to diagnose once the laser is disassembled and the driver is within reach, although maybe people are reluctant to do that if the laser is under warranty.


People haven't been wanting to as dissasembly will violate the warranty... But I'll go look again on LPF in a while, if I remember


----------



## photon1c

FYI there is a post on the WickedLaser's forums on their site that suggests there were ~50,000 orders for the Arctic.

It doesn't quite make sense though because it assumes that the order numbers started with 0... yet wicked lasers was in business for many years before selling the arctic and I doubt they restarted their order system to start with order #0 when the first Arctic was ordered 

http://www.lasercommunity.com/viewtopic.php?t=19076&sid=1


----------



## wyager

Also, a new order number is made every single time someone makes a shopping cart, they don't even have to check out. Plus, wicked sells other things too.


----------



## Shiftlock

photon1c said:


> ~50,000 orders for the Arctic. It doesn't quite make sense though because it assumes that the order numbers started with 0... yet wicked lasers was in business for many years before selling the arctic and I doubt they restarted their order system to start with order #0 when the first Arctic was ordered





wyager said:


> Also, a new order number is made every single time someone makes a shopping cart, they don't even have to check out. Plus, wicked sells other things too.



According to the shopping cart, the current order is 877974. You can check this yourself. Go to the WL site, add something to your cart, then look at the page source and find the lines that say:

* <td name="qty" class="cartcenter"> 
<input type="hidden" name="allowed_oa_quantity[877974]" value="-"/> 
<input type="hidden" name="oa_inventory_control[877974]" value="No"/> 
<input type="hidden" name="oa_stock[877974]" value="-1"/> 
*

The number in brackets will advance if you delete the shopping cart cookie it saves on your system, and do it again. So the final order number is assigned separately from the number that the shopping cart is assigning, and it appears they're using a separate order number system specifically for the Arctic line. So yes, it probably started at 0.

I had suspected they received 40-50k orders for this laser, given the media publicity.


----------



## hugodrax

I thought a few here received shipment, why no posts regarding product experience.


----------



## Raccoon

hugodrax said:


> I thought a few here received shipment, why no posts regarding product experience.



nobody wants to admit they through away their money, or at very least, didn't get what they feel they paid for.


----------



## ANDREAS FERRARI

This is why I never buy _*ANYTHING*_ without positive feedback from my fellow CPFer's!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Fat Boy

this was posted by wicked lasers on facebook.


*Wicked Lasers* G2 lasers have started shipping, new order requests for G1 lasers will no longer be accepted.


----------



## Shiftlock

Fat Boy said:


> this was posted by wicked lasers on facebook.
> 
> 
> *Wicked Lasers* G2 lasers have started shipping, new order requests for G1 lasers will no longer be accepted.



So the quality of the G1 units is so poor that they're not even shipping them anymore now that the G2 units are available. Hopefully these G2 units will be everything everybody expected in the first place. This whole G1/G2 thing sounds like a classic case of "fast, good, cheap - pick two."

Hopefully WL will allow the customers who opted for G1 units that have now failed to exchange them for a G2, although return shipping to China may be a bummer.


----------



## was.lost.but.now.found

Shiftlock said:


> So the quality of the G1 units is so poor that they're not even shipping them anymore now that the G2 units are available. Hopefully these G2 units will be everything everybody expected in the first place. This whole G1/G2 thing sounds like a classic case of "fast, good, cheap - pick two."
> 
> Hopefully WL will allow the customers who opted for G1 units that have now failed to exchange them for a G2, although return shipping to China may be a bummer.



See post 391 (note they poster has the models switched). G2 has a safety switch added to get the gov't and press off their back.


----------



## wyager

According to some reading I just did-not only are the drivers failing, they are TOASTING the diodes! Like, DESTROYED. Some guy took apart a busted arctic, the diode wasn't even LED'd (eg destroyed by slight to moderate overload, which almost always happens when a laser breaks) but the diode appeared to not work AT ALL. No dim glow. I can't even think of how a normal driver would do such a thing... It would take amps of current to bust through the micro-filament wires connecting to the die.


----------



## senecaripple

some suggested at lpf the safety glass was reflecting the beam back and thus, burning the diode, driver. one removed the top glass and even boosted an additional 100mw.


----------



## wyager

senecaripple said:


> some suggested at lpf the safety glass was reflecting the beam back and thus, burning the diode, driver. one removed the top glass and even boosted an additional 100mw.


The problem with this theory is that the diode can easily handle the reflected 100mW, as back-reflection kills the diode by increasing the power density at the facet. But this diode could easily handle an entire watt being reflected back at it without breaking, as the maximum output is 2300mW (and even if you go over that, the diode will still be OK once you decrease the power level ) so these things are almost back-flash proof. Also, if the back-flash killed them, they would still emit a dim glow ("LED") as opposed to just doing nothing.


----------



## Shiftlock

wyager said:


> Also, if the back-flash killed them, they would still emit a dim glow ("LED") as opposed to just doing nothing.



Agreed, and this is the really strange part. I've burned out so many laser diodes over the years, and you always know they're toasted when you see that warm glow. With these Arctics, it seems almost as if the driver shorted and flooded the diode with direct battery current, but if that's the case, it's an incredibly bad design.

Are they doing anything remarkable when they die, like burning out with a bright flash?


----------



## wyager

Shiftlock said:


> Agreed, and this is the really strange part. I've burned out so many laser diodes over the years, and you always know they're toasted when you see that warm glow. With these Arctics, it seems almost as if the driver shorted and flooded the diode with direct battery current, but if that's the case, it's an incredibly bad design.
> 
> Are they doing anything remarkable when they die, like burning out with a bright flash?


Nothing remarkable. It seems to me like the driver must be pumping enough voltage/current through the diode to break the bonding wires, which is not easy.


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

Now we don't know for sure if the driver is over-amping and hence blowing the wires, or if it is something else. It is very strange for them not to be LED'd. Perhaps if that user could verify whether or not the bond wires are opened or not...

The driver was awful-looking. R8 and Q1, IIRC, were all off-kilter, and there was an "engineering fix" on the back-side.


----------



## Shiftlock

bshanahan14rulz said:


> Now we don't know for sure if the driver is over-amping and hence blowing the wires, or if it is something else. It is very strange for them not to be LED'd. Perhaps if that user could verify whether or not the bond wires are opened or not...
> 
> The driver was awful-looking. R8 and Q1, IIRC, were all off-kilter, and there was an "engineering fix" on the back-side.



Did someone post pictures of the driver on a different forum? If so, can you please point me to them?


----------



## wyager

bshanahan14rulz said:


> Now we don't know for sure if the driver is over-amping and hence blowing the wires, or if it is something else. It is very strange for them not to be LED'd. Perhaps if that user could verify whether or not the bond wires are opened or not...
> 
> The driver was awful-looking. R8 and Q1, IIRC, were all off-kilter, and there was an "engineering fix" on the back-side.


Yep, it was huge and poorly done. We have these drivers that are like 8*13mm that can pump out 1.2A without flinching, and wicked is wasting all this space for a huge ugly driver that doesn't even work properly 



Shiftlock said:


> Did someone post pictures of the driver on a different forum? If so, can you please point me to them?



Look around on LPF, there's a thread called "arctic disassembly" or something.


----------



## hugodrax

riquif said:


> I've kept my hopes low thus far, and they will continue to be until I have it in my hands.
> 
> Fingers crossed. I need it for work!
> 
> I will definitely post pictures and video the second it arrives.
> 
> EDIT: Oh, and I ordered it about 3 days after it was announced.



So hows your laser doing??


----------



## lensman137

Just got this from wicked:


From: "Wicked Lasers - Sales & Customer Service" 
Date: August 20, 2010 1:21:46 PM PDT
To: lensman137 
Subject: Re: Order status

Dear Wicked Lasers customer,

Arctic G2 Lasers have begun shipping. Due to the last-minute
implementation of the SmartSwitch as well as a high volume of orders,
customers who purchased first will receive priority status in the
order of shipping. In order to avoid customs-related delays, we will
not be providing tracking numbers for Arctic orders at this time. You
will be notified when your order is shipped out and you'll receive the
date when the package is scheduled to be delivered. Most current
Arctic customers should receive their shipment notification emails
sometime next week. We did not expect so many orders and we feel that
the addition of extra safety features is a good idea even though it
has taken us longer.
We are no longer taking orders for the Arctic G1, the version without
the smartswitch. *We will ship previous requests for the Arctic G1
however; we are hoping that those whom requested G1s would give great
thought to changing their order back to an Arctic G2 Smartswitch
Version. *You may do this by emailing us with “Change order back to G2
[order number]” in the subject field.
If for any reason, you would like to receive a refund prior to
shipping, please notify us immediately by sending us an email with
"Cancel order [order number]" in the subject field.
If your question was about a Pulsar or Lunar, we will be getting them
in stock this week and in consequence they will begin shipping next
week or sooner.
If you want to know why your payment hasn't been deducted from your
bank account it is most probably because we often don't capture
payments until we're ready to ship your order.
If your question was about the price difference between the Spyder III
532nm laser and the Arctic laser, it's because they have different
manufacturing processes. The Spyder III 532nm laser has crystals
inside that convert IR light (1064nm) to green light (532nm) thus
making the final product more expensive due to precision alignment of
the crystals.
Should you require further assistance don't hesitate to contact us.
We're very sorry about the inconveniences and delays. We appreciate
your patience and look forward to doing business with you again.


-- 
Best regards,
Wicked Lasers
Customer Service

To receive exclusive updates, follow us:

*[contact details deleted - DM51]*


----------



## senecaripple

two months later!
i haven't got that letter yet.


----------



## Tachikoma

I cancelled my Wickedlasers Arctic order a long ago and bought (and received in less than a week) a Dragonlasers Spartan...
According to someone the WL puts out only 750mw while the DL exceeds 1100mw!


----------



## Dave 300

Well ive had a mail my G2 will ship next week ! We will see . If it turns out a load of crap ill strip it out and build a good one and do it properly my self but we will see they might get better than the G1.


----------



## senecaripple

well, still no acknowledgment of my purchases from wl. and still queued for dragonlaser. wtf?


----------



## Dave 300

I have been trying to access the ticket page from a book mark and from email receipts and I can't now get in to view my order! Any body else with this problem?


----------



## hugodrax

Dave 300 said:


> I have been trying to access the ticket page from a book mark and from email receipts and I can't now get in to view my order! Any body else with this problem?



Maybe the order got lost in the system?


----------



## hank

aiee, perhaps everyone there has mysteriously gone blind ....


----------



## senecaripple

hank said:


> aiee, perhaps everyone there has mysteriously gone blind ....




must have forgotten to put goggles on when testing. confused with google!

well, i check my email everyday to see if they respond to my ticket. still nada, and no form letter either of the shipment of g2


----------



## Shiftlock

senecaripple said:


> must have forgotten to put goggles on when testing. confused with google!
> 
> well, i check my email everyday to see if they respond to my ticket. still nada, and no form letter either of the shipment of g2



If you have an automatic spam filter/folder, you should check it. I've heard that some people have had email from WL mistakenly labeled as spam.


----------



## senecaripple

Shiftlock said:


> If you have an automatic spam filter/folder, you should check it. I've heard that some people have had email from WL mistakenly labeled as spam.



unfortunately, i do check both and still nada.


----------



## Dave 300

Well in my boredom i ordered a Spartan 1watt laser from Dragon lasers only to find that there is a waiting time for those too but i reckon in the next two or so weeks one or the other will turn up!!! Ill get one one way or another..


----------



## senecaripple

Dave 300 said:


> Well in my boredom i ordered a Spartan 1watt laser from Dragon lasers only to find that there is a waiting time for those too but i reckon in the next two or so weeks one or the other will turn up!!! Ill get one one way or another..



ditto. mine may ship thursday???


----------



## Dave 300

I hope the G2's are a little better if it blows up ill replace its internals with some real power and reliability but im still waiting....:shakehead


----------



## senecaripple

got notice that my sparta shipped today and my arctic "will be shipped" on the 27th.


----------



## fabienne

I read in Facebook for Wicked Laser, one people with order no. 541xx already got their hands on G2, but I just checked that my order no. 535xx still have not got shipping notification. How about you guys ? What order no. have you got ?


----------



## Wiseguyzz_Inc_

fabienne said:


> I read in Facebook for Wicked Laser, one people with order no. 541xx already got their hands on G2, but I just checked that my order no. 535xx still have not got shipping notification. How about you guys ? What order no. have you got ?


 

Order 636xx here....btw check WL's page, they now have a shipping schedule up with dates... don't know how accurate it is tho....


----------



## Illum

the more testing is done, the more it becomes apparent that they can't safely sell this thing...then all of a sudden operations told productions they can't produce it, which then ticks off marketing and CS, etc...

Have we considered the fact that there might be a fistfight within WL?


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

illum, you are complicating the process. 

Standard business model:
Step 1: collect underpants.
Step 2: ...?...
Step 3: Profit!

But seriously, I doubt that they care if they can't "safely" sell it. They're already shipping "safety goggles" and "safety lenses" with the thing, I'm amazed that they even went THAT far...


----------



## Shiftlock

Let's not forget that WL is a Chinese company, and as such, they don't have to (and just plain don't) adhere to the safety laws that a US company would. More likely all the delays are simply due to sourcing the parts to make the things. Does anyone know how quickly Nichia is churning out these high power 445nm diodes? With WL reportedly needing 50,000 of them ASAP, that may make them the largest buyer. Certainly the second largest, behind Casio. So, that could be the entire problem right there.


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

That's not a bottleneck. Nichia has barely anything to do with these lasers. WL guts them out of casio projectors, just like the rest of us.


----------



## wyager

bshanahan14rulz said:


> That's not a bottleneck. Nichia has barely anything to do with these lasers. WL guts them out of casio projectors, just like the rest of us.



Yeah, 50,000 is NOT enough to warrant nichia producing diodes for wicked. Casio probably has a contract to buy millions of diodes in the next few years. WL has to wait for whole projectors or projector parts to become available in bulk. If wicked alone created enough of a demand, we could have had these diodes years ago. They actually have been available for quite some time, they just cost $30,000 apiece.


----------



## hugodrax

Just checking in, I guess nothing new. Folks still waiting, and no CPF members chiming in on their experience with the laser.

Will be back next month.


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

lpf has plenty of info on users' experiences with the arctic. Most of it bad. Remember, though, that the sample wasn't random, but relied on voluntary participation, so the data may or may not be skewed.


----------



## SmurfTacular

Order number 486**

Still no order confirmation :shakehead :thumbsdow


----------



## Fat Boy

I canceled my order 517xx and got my money back within 48 hours. I will buy a custom one that is better.


----------



## CKOD

Got mine in just now... figured Li-Ion batterys ship at 3.8 volts so I should be able to cheat and test it out for a little bit before charging the battery.
Put it in the laser and it wont even recognize it has a battery. Throw it on my Cellpro charger, and the cell voltage is 2.0V. They shipped the battery sitting in the charger cradle, presumably draining it :thumbsdow and its a cheap 1300 mAh 18650 too. Only loose 18650 I have around so I'll try and charge it gently, but if it fails I have some trustfire 2500 mAh's at a friends from working on projects there.


----------



## Kenom

I figured I'd post my figures over here of the Arctic G1 that I've got. You do have to take off the normal lens as it does drop the output power by over 100mw.


This was graphed with a Kenometer Pro using luminosity the software that comes with the Kenometers. Ophir thermalpile.


----------



## Shiftlock

Kenom said:


> I figured I'd post my figures over here of the Arctic G1 that I've got.



Now that you've given us an indication of quantity, tell us about the quality of the beam, which is more important in my opinion. Do those photons stick together?


----------



## Kenom

Shiftlock said:


> Now that you've given us an indication of quantity, tell us about the quality of the beam, which is more important in my opinion. Do those photons stick together?


 
The beam is pretty much what you expect a multimode laser diode to be. it's a wide beast. The width of the dot at aperture is about 5mm at it's thickest and 2mm at it's thinnest. [==] is what it looks like. Just gets wider as it goes out. The focus is adjustable if your willing to open it up and twist the lens.

I do want to say that my ONE laser out of the run is NOT an indication of the general quality of these lasers. They are breaking down left and right over at the other laser forum and folks are generally dissatisfied with the overall quality of the laser.

I've got some beam shots..

















A picture of the dot extremely DEFOCUSED.


----------



## photon1c

When you say 'extremely defocused' do you mean it comes like that, or you opened it up and defocused it on purpose?


----------



## wyager

photon1c said:


> When you say 'extremely defocused' do you mean it comes like that, or you opened it up and defocused it on purpose?



He moved the lens. But does it matter? Why would you buy an arctic given all the crappy feedback?


----------



## photon1c

Who said I was buying one? I just wanted to know if they came like that or he defocused it.
Plus, when it first went on sale,it was $199 and so far I don't know of any other company selling 1W blue laser that cheap (even Wicked increased their price). Even if it takes a little tinkering, that's not a bad price for a laser pointer that would have cost $1500 2 years ago.


----------



## wyager

photon1c said:


> Who said I was buying one? I just wanted to know if they came like that or he defocused it.
> Plus, when it first went on sale,it was $199 and so far I don't know of any other company selling 1W blue laser that cheap (even Wicked increased their price). Even if it takes a little tinkering, that's not a bad price for a laser pointer that would have cost $1500 2 years ago.



First-there are lots of companies that sell them for cheaper. Second, it would have cost many, many thousands years ago and wicked is too clueless to have done it. Wicked learned from LPF members how to make the 445nm lasers. Wicked isn't bringing you a good deal, they're capitalizing on a cheap laser with a cheap diode. It probably costs them $50 apiece to build (if that).


----------



## Shiftlock

wyager said:


> Wicked isn't bringing you a good deal, they're capitalizing on a cheap laser with a cheap diode. It probably costs them $50 apiece to build (if that).



You're right when you say "if that." I bet WL is getting these diodes right from Nichia for a few bucks per. Think about the price Casio must be getting them for to sell a projector for $600 wholesale that has 24 of them. With all the other parts, manufacturing/distribution costs, advertising, etc., in order to be turning a profit, they have to be paying well under $10 each for the blue diodes. With over 50k orders for these lasers, plus stock for future orders, WL must have purchased nearly as many diodes as Casio has, if not more, so they have to be getting the same deal. And, with the cost of Chinese manufacturing, they're probably turning out the hosts for a few bucks each as well. Overall, it wouldn't surprise me if their total cost is around $20/unit, and a good part of that is probably advertising, with the large ads for the blue Arctic that they've been putting in major magazines like Popular Science and Popular Mechanics.

You're also right about how WL set their price. It isn't based on their manufacturing cost, it's based on what the market will bear. In other words, how much people are willing to pay for these lasers. When the demand at $199 was so insane that WL couldn't keep up, they raised the price to $299. It's simple supply and demand economics.


----------



## photon1c

wyager said:


> First-there are lots of companies that sell them for cheaper. Second, it would have cost many, many thousands years ago and wicked is too clueless to have done it. Wicked learned from LPF members how to make the 445nm lasers. Wicked isn't bringing you a good deal, they're capitalizing on a cheap laser with a cheap diode. It probably costs them $50 apiece to build (if that).



I haven't seen any other sellers of 1W blue lasers at $199 or under but I am no expert. If we're allowed to post links to other sellers in this forum, I invite you to post some links.


----------



## wyager

photon1c said:


> I haven't seen any other sellers of 1W blue lasers at $199 or under but I am no expert. If we're allowed to post links to other sellers in this forum, I invite you to post some links.



Wicked is selling them for $299+shipping, I remind you... And with like 30 seconds of google searching I already found a reputable company selling them for only $239, and then there are many sellers in the US (not overseas) that sell them for $199. I won't post links here.

The wicked arctic is decidedly NOT worth the money (as we now know). It's a POS that breaks as often as it works. Better quality, smaller lasers can be had for much better prices.


----------



## Shiftlock

photon1c said:


> I haven't seen any other sellers of 1W blue lasers at $199 or under but I am no expert. If we're allowed to post links to other sellers in this forum, I invite you to post some links.



Yup, Wicked Lasers is now charging $299 for the 445nm Arctic. As Wyager mentioned above, as well as someone else back a few pages in this thread, Dragon Lasers has a 1W 445nm blue laser they call the Spartan for $239.


I haven't seen a review of this laser, but I bet it's better quality than the Arctic. Has anyone posted a review of the Dragon Lasers Spartan anywhere? I would love to see a side-by-side comparison of two lasers.


----------



## photon1c

Go back and re-read my previous post. I know WL has upped the price, as I mentioned in the post. That's not the issue. The issue is people with pending orders who paid $199. They might be persuaded to cancel their WL order and go buy another laser.. IF there was another company selling a 1W blue laser at $199 or less. Again, I'm no expert in laser pointer retailers, but I still haven't seen a link or evidence of another site selling a ~1W blue laser for $199 or less.


----------



## wyager

photon1c said:


> Go back and re-read my previous post. I know WL has upped the price, as I mentioned in the post. That's not the issue. The issue is people with pending orders who paid $199. They might be persuaded to cancel their WL order and go buy another laser.. IF there was another company selling a 1W blue laser at $199 or less. Again, I'm no expert in laser pointer retailers, but I still haven't seen a link or evidence of another site selling a ~1W blue laser for $199 or less.



I'm not posting a link here, both because of the rules and because I'd rather not draw attention to it, but I know of AT LEAST one seller who's selling them sub-$200, and if I wanted to expend the effort I could probably find more.


----------



## Shiftlock

photon1c said:


> Go back and re-read my previous post. I know WL has upped the price, as I mentioned in the post. That's not the issue. The issue is people with pending orders who paid $199. They might be persuaded to cancel their WL order and go buy another laser.. IF there was another company selling a 1W blue laser at $199 or less. Again, I'm no expert in laser pointer retailers, but I still haven't seen a link or evidence of another site selling a ~1W blue laser for $199 or less.



Assuming for a moment that there's no other company selling a 1W 445nm laser for $199 or less (which apparently there is according to wyager), the difference between $199 and $239 is relatively insignificant, especially when you factor in shipping from China. When you then consider the quality-control problems that people have been experiencing with the Arctic, anyone who is still waiting on their Arctic order would be stupid NOT to cancel it and order one from Dragon Lasers or elsewhere instead.


----------



## senecaripple

received the dragon laser 2 weeks ago, ordered it back in august. was about $275.00 shipped. have not tested it yet. still waiting for my arctic ordered back in june. crossing my fingers i'll get them.


----------



## photon1c

Can a mod chime in here? Is it appropriate to post links to other retailers of 1W blue lasers?

If not, please feel free to PM me with the seller info.

So far it went from "everyone has a sub-$199 1W blue laser" to "why don't you Google it?" to "I maybe know of one source, but I aint tellin".

PS: sounds like the DragonLasers model is $275 shipped, I think the WickedLasers original price with shipping was somewhere under $230?

What was that about a 1W laser costing $50 to build?

Edited to add:

I don't have any skin in the game. Personally, I'm going to stand by and pick up a 1W pointer in a year or two when they are cheaper. I've personally never been attracted to WickedLasers due to the pricing; I always got my high powered green lasers from DealExtreme. But in this case, it sounds like Wicked hit the sweet spot (at least originally, before they upped the price) when they came out with a 1W laser for $199. Not sure why there are so many Wicked Lasers haters here, maybe they feel like they missed the boat on the original $199 pricing. I've heard people say the Arctics got 'bad reviews from everyone' at 'the other forum' (I don't know what the other forum is.) One guy posts an ugly beam shot, but it's from an intentionally defocused laser. So there's not much here to go on.


----------



## wyager

photon1c said:


> Can a mod chime in here? Is it appropriate to post links to other retailers of 1W blue lasers?
> 
> If not, please feel free to PM me with the seller info.
> 
> So far it went from "everyone has a sub-$199 1W blue laser" to "why don't you Google it?" to "I maybe know of one source, but I aint tellin".
> 
> PS: sounds like the DragonLasers model is $275 shipped, I think the WickedLasers original price with shipping was somewhere under $230?
> 
> What was that about a 1W laser costing $50 to build?
> 
> Edited to add:
> 
> I don't have any skin in the game. Personally, I'm going to stand by and pick up a 1W pointer in a year or two when they are cheaper. I've personally never been attracted to WickedLasers due to the pricing; I always got my high powered green lasers from DealExtreme. But in this case, it sounds like Wicked hit the sweet spot (at least originally, before they upped the price) when they came out with a 1W laser for $199. Not sure why there are so many Wicked Lasers haters here, maybe they feel like they missed the boat on the original $199 pricing. I've heard people say the Arctics got 'bad reviews from everyone' at 'the other forum' (I don't know what the other forum is.) One guy posts an ugly beam shot, but it's from an intentionally defocused laser. So there's not much here to go on.



PM sent. Also, people hate wicked because the lasers break. Go read the horror stories at laserpointerforums.


----------



## elugelab

0-like has a 1W 445nm blue laser for $189.99


----------



## wyager

elugelab said:


> 0-like has a 1W 445nm blue laser for $189.99



I sent him that link


----------



## Athoul

Having questioned Wicked about the claims of lasers breaking etc, I have checked into this and was provided with the statistics indicating that less then 1% of the thousands of Arctics sold have had been RMA'd. Print out of database for items shipped vs items RMA'd.

Having recieved both a G1 and G2 (both in review process) I don't see any issues with the build quality. I have not yet metered the output so can't say anthing on that at the moment.

As many of the members on LPF are also sellers of lasers, I question some of the information that is represented there (my opinion only). The only real issues I can see are the long wait times due to mass ordering from the unexpected media that the Arctic received. Some have issues, but according to the database info, it is less then 1%, that's not bad at all.


----------



## wyager

Athoul said:


> Having questioned Wicked about the claims of lasers breaking etc, I have checked into this and was provided with the statistics indicating that less then 1% of the thousands of Arctics sold have had been RMA'd. Print out of database for items shipped vs items RMA'd.
> 
> Having recieved both a G1 and G2 (both in review process) I don't see any issues with the build quality. I have not yet metered the output so can't say anthing on that at the moment.
> 
> As many of the members on LPF are also sellers of lasers, I question some of the information that is represented there (my opinion only). The only real issues I can see are the long wait times due to mass ordering from the unexpected media that the Arctic received. Some have issues, but according to the database info, it is less then 1%, that's not bad at all.


Who gave you these stats? Wicked? Of course according to them these lasers work fine. They lied about plenty of other stuff... let's see-shipping cost, output power, lens quality, shipping time (like SIX TIMES), and you don't know the half of how the owner of wicked lied to the vets at LPF...


----------



## Athoul

wyager said:


> Who gave you these stats? Wicked? Of course according to them these lasers work fine. They lied about plenty of other stuff... let's see-shipping cost, output power, lens quality, shipping time (like SIX TIMES), and you don't know the half of how the owner of wicked lied to the vets at LPF...


 
I have access to the database info itself, not just something I was "told" by someone at Wicked. I know more then you may think, and have been around before LPF even existed. You seem disgruntled and bent on making Wicked look bad. I'm just offering some information stating that while there were/are some issues with the Arctics, it's certianly not representative of the majority. Those that have issues voice louder then those who do not, so of course you will hear about a bad unit.


----------



## wyager

Athoul said:


> I have access to the database info itself, not just something I was "told" by someone at Wicked. I know more then you may think, and have been around before LPF even existed. You seem disgruntled and bent on making Wicked look bad. I'm just offering some information stating that while there were/are some issues with the Arctics, it's certianly not representative of the majority. Those that have issues voice louder then those who do not, so of course you will hear about a bad unit.



And did you hack your way to this database? If not, chances are either the data is tampered with or you are in a position where it would be in your advantage to mess with the data. I'm not disgruntled, as wicked has never done anything to me personally. And I DO want to make wicked look bad, as they are a bad company that will scam their customers. I already showed you some reasons. Also, wicked also has absolutely no regard for the continued existence of the laser hobby in general. They marketed this laser as a weapon, that's undeniable. You seem pretty bent on supporting wicked in the face of evidence... with your access to their "database"... 

I suppose if you want to, you can support wicked all you want, but MY personal advice is to buy from a company that has a better reputation if you want a 445nm laser...


----------



## Athoul

The data was not tampered with, it's automatically entered. I have no way to alter it and it would take way to long and completely screw up the system for wicked to alter it. The reason I checked was so I could in good faith respond to your claims, nothing more. The fact is though that of the thousands sold, 5-10 people posting issues is not indicative of the majority.

You are zealously promoting Wicked to be bad, but have not had any personal dealings with them. If you delt with them then you could say they are good or bad from personal experience. Otherwise it is as if I were to say all Subaru's are bad because a few people have had bad experiences with them, even though I never ownded a Subaru for myself. I've had quite a few products from Wicked and only had an issue with one, which was replaced without much trouble. I'm not saying some people did not have issues with the Arctic or didn't recieve a bad unit, just that it is not the majoriy based on numbers I am seeing.

Also some of the so called vets and many of the members at LPF are also sellers of lasers, or sellers of DIY kits. Thus there is a level of bias inherent in the information presented (not in all cases of course).

I would advise taking what you read with a grain of salt in many cases, and this is universal you can apply it to even what I am writing if you like. The best way to see if a company is good or bad is to deal with them yourself, that way you have actual experience to back up your claims. I wonder, if you did order a laser from them and it turned out to be a good unit, would you think differently about them? Just saying.


----------



## wyager

5-10 people ON LPF said that the lasers were bad. They make up an incredibly small percentage of the buyers. And those aren't even the people who probably just returned the broken laser. And sure, the people on LPF might have a bias but I can tell you from an engineering standpoint that the driver used in the arctic is absolute [email protected] That's why they break. That doesn't really have anything to do with bias...
And I have a real hard time believing your "database" spiel. Either you work for wicked, this is public info offered by wicked, this is unreliable self-collected info, or you hacked their RMA database. Which is it?


Also, I have no problem with wicked's other lasers... however, I have lost respect for them as a company after they peddle a crappy $300+ laser to noobs who know no better, and damage the hobby in the process. I don't need personal experience with the company to develop an opinion, I just base it on all the lies and deceit from wicked.


----------



## Shiftlock

Athoul said:


> You are zealously promoting Wicked to be bad, but have not had any personal dealings with them. If you delt with them then you could say they are good or bad from personal experience.



Wicked Lasers has a long history of what many would call shady business practices, going back to the very beginning when Chris Tao operated the company from his college dormitory in Storrs, Connecticut, before he fled to China to avoid legal trouble. Granted, the company has come a very long way since then, but it's hard to shed a bad reputation.

Can you be more specific about what kind of data you have showing a return rate of less than 1% on Arctics? You said it's a "printout of database", but I don't know how to interpret that. Is it an image of a printout that was emailed to you, or something?

Another thing to consider is that many people have just received these lasers. Many of the people who have received them, haven't used them much yet. Even a lot of people with units that have failed probably haven't gotten around to RMA'ing them yet. Also, a good number of people probably won't even bother with return shipping to China for a broken laser at this price point. All of this considered, at this point I would expect the number of returns to be WAY, WAY under 1%. Very close to naught, in fact. I wonder what it will be like six months or a year from now.


----------



## Athoul

wyager said:


> the people on LPF might have a bias but I can tell you from an engineering standpoint that the driver used in the arctic is absolute [email protected] That's why they break. That doesn't really have anything to do with bias...


 
I am an engineer, though I have not personally disected one of these. Is this standpoint based on your own inspection or hearsay from someone else? Hopefully there are at least detailed pictures indicating this. The driver in their DPSS (532/473nm) Spyder III's was actually pretty good. You are right though you can have an opinion, but you are taking it further to an almost obsessive level. If you had a personal bad experience with them then what could I say, you would be justifiably upset, but without one I guess I don't understand why you have such a strong viewpoint which seems beyond just an opinion. I'm not trying to argue with you, just saying it seems a bit over the top. I can only speak for myself in that I've not had a bad experience with them ever.

I have two units G1 and G2 that I am reviewing currently (not finished), but other then a lack of AR coated lens, I see no aparent problem with the laser at this point...either of them. I have issues with the stock battery, but it has nothing to do with the device itself. Output can't be tested until the weekend due to my LPM on loan, but if I were to guess I'd say it's at least over 800mW based on experience. Offhand my G1 seems higher output then my G2... many possible factors though and I could be wrong.

As to the data, this was made available to me upon my request. It only indicates that a small fraction under 1% of orders were RMA'd. Shiftlock you are correct in that people are just receiving their lasers, the info is current; I have no idea what the percentage will be in six months honestly.


----------



## wyager

Athoul said:


> I am an engineer, though I have not personally disected one of these. Is this standpoint based on your own inspection or hearsay from someone else? Hopefully there are at least detailed pictures indicating this. The driver in their DPSS (532/473nm) Spyder III's was actually pretty good. You are right though you can have an opinion, but you are taking it further to an almost obsessive level. If you had a personal bad experience with them then what could I say, you would be justifiably upset, but without one I guess I don't understand why you have such a strong viewpoint which seems beyond just an opinion. I'm not trying to argue with you, just saying it seems a bit over the top. I can only speak for myself in that I've not had a bad experience with them ever.
> 
> I have two units G1 and G2 that I am reviewing currently (not finished), but other then a lack of AR coated lens, I see no aparent problem with the laser at this point...either of them. I have issues with the stock battery, but it has nothing to do with the device itself. Output can't be tested until the weekend due to my LPM on loan, but if I were to guess I'd say it's at least over 800mW based on experience. Offhand my G1 seems higher output then my G2... many possible factors though and I could be wrong.
> 
> As to the data, this was made available to me upon my request. It only indicates that a small fraction under 1% of orders were RMA'd. Shiftlock you are correct in that people are just receiving their lasers, the info is current; I have no idea what the percentage will be in six months honestly.



You're just as obsessed as I am here, LOL. You're defending wicked just as much as I'm offending it. The driver is awful because A)It's huge B)it has awful output filtering (BIG spikes) and C)there appears to be an inherent flaw that occasionally generates massive voltage spikes. I don't know of another driver that could possibly destroy a diode as badly as these drivers do.

And if the data was made available to you upon request, that means wicked could have messed with it! Your argument is really not holding up here-of course it can be tampered with if wicked provided it to you.

It sounds to me like you're being compensated somehow to say these things... I wouldn't put it above wicked.


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## Shiftlock

Athoul said:


> As to the data, this was made available to me upon my request. It only indicates that a small fraction under 1% of orders were RMA'd.



I'm still confused... What is this data? Is it something that was scanned, then emailed as an image file? Is it a spreadsheet? Is it a screenshot? An online database? Text in an email? In what format does this "data" exist?


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## wyager

Hey athoul...
you might wanna check this out...
http://laserpointerforums.com/f65/30-reasons-not-buy-wicked-lasers-arctic-s3-56289.html#post794342


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## Markus Unread

"B)it has awful output filtering (BIG spikes) and C)there appears to be an inherent flaw that occasionally generates massive voltage spikes."

Where was the posting with the info on this? Any scope pics? I'd like to know what kind of spikes were measured.


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## whirlysplat

I ordered 3x Arctic Spyder on 21st JUNE.

I have received numerous promises and appologies, but no lasers. Maybe that's a good thing given the reports of reliability problems.

Today I have cancelled my order.

WL is without any question the most useless company I have ever dealt with.

"Disgusted" seems inadequate.


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## Shiftlock

Markus Unread said:


> "B)it has awful output filtering (BIG spikes) and C)there appears to be an inherent flaw that occasionally generates massive voltage spikes."
> 
> Where was the posting with the info on this? Any scope pics? I'd like to know what kind of spikes were measured.



He may be saying that based on the fact that some Arctics have had blown diodes, to the point that the diode won't emit even a small bit of light. Usually when a laser diode is pushed to the point of damage, it will still emit a slight glow, but these Arctics are blowing diodes to the point that they make no light whatsoever. It takes a lot of current and/or voltage to damage a laser diode so completely.

It's true that this is only circumstantial evidence for "massive voltage spikes," but then he did say "there APPEARS to be an inherent flaw..." Or perhaps there's other, more direct evidence of this that I'm not aware of. In any case, some Arctics have had very blown diodes - there's no question about that.


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## wyager

Markus Unread said:


> "B)it has awful output filtering (BIG spikes) and C)there appears to be an inherent flaw that occasionally generates massive voltage spikes."
> 
> Where was the posting with the info on this? Any scope pics? I'd like to know what kind of spikes were measured.



As shiftlock said, these spikes can not be measured, only deduced, for the simple reason that they occur when you least expect them, and it appears they only occur once. :fail:


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## arrrx

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



Kestrel said:


> I found this part interesting:
> Warning: Extremely dangerous is an understatement to the power of 1W of laser power. It will blind permanently and instantly and set fire quickly to skin and other body parts, use with extreme caution and only when using the included eye protection. [...]
> Wow.


Maybe it should be treat as a weapon...mini sized and with low power.


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## glynnlock

I ordered 5 G1 models months back maybe in June or July preping for a gun show on the fisrt weekend of August and got them all in a few weeks time. Sold one and have 4 left and havent had a problem with any of them yet. I dont know why I bought 5, I guess I am really sick in the head. I used one for some time and demo'ed it at a gun show prior to selling it and didnt have any problems. I am going to go outside and play with one and see if I can kill it like people are saying they die. lol! Maybe I got ones before they were rushed into production?

I was waiting for my lasers for a couple weeks and sent an email and got a response quickly and they made it up to me for having to wait by sending an extra pair of goggles and a lens kit. 

I havent had a problem with WL yet. I sell High end US military night vision and high end IR illuminators and lights and just was intrigued with the WL Arctic. I know it isnt as nice as some of the really high end IR military laser designators I deal with but it is like a blue light pipe cannon going on for as far as the eye can see..

Glynn


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## andyw513

Mine came in a couple weeks ago, hence my absence from here. I have no complaints so far, other than having to wear the goggles while I burn stuff. (But you know, for purely scientific purposes 100% of the time)


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## senecaripple

anybody still waiting for there's that ordered back in june? I'm still forever waiting for my two. Called them a couple of weeks ago. said shipment wont resume til sometime in october.


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## Wakko

Yep, I still haven't got mine yet. I did get one from a buddy, and the damned charger didn't work. Laser works well though.


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## helios

Just got tracking info for mine. Its in Lousiville and listed as "Import Scan" right now. Hope it gets through Customs. I originally ordered back in June and called last week to get a shipping update. They told me the order went out three days ago. What a coincidence!


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## Wakko

I will contact them tomorrow to cancel my order. Either they ship it immediately or I'm done with it. They'll likely say "Oh, it just shipped!"


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## Notsure Fire

I hate it when they keep you hanging like that.


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## senecaripple

i finally got a shipping notice for my two. really hoping their not somebody's returns. And they've corrected all of their bugs.


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## hank

From an 'Arctic' review here:
http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/30/arctic.htm

this:

"... From a posting on the Laser Pointer Forums (and used with explicit written consent; not just implied oral consent) comes the following {no changes to spelling, syntax or grammar were made}:

Hello everyone as you may know I've had my Arctics for a little while now....
About an hour into charging I heard an explosion & large flash and awful burning smell from the room the charger & batteries where. Both my Fire Alarm & Burglar Alarm went off at the same time.

The WL 18650 battery had EXPLODED ...."


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## wyager

No big surprises there. Some chargers turned up broken.


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## Shiftlock

hank said:


> From an 'Arctic' review here:
> http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/30/arctic.htm
> 
> this:
> 
> "...
> About an hour into charging I heard an explosion & large flash and awful burning smell from the room the charger & batteries where. Both my Fire Alarm & Burglar Alarm went off at the same time.
> 
> The WL 18650 battery had EXPLODED ...."



I get the fire alarm, but how did it set off the burglar alarm? After exploding, did the battery tip-toe out of the charger and try to escape out the window?


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## AnAppleSnail

Shiftlock said:


> I get the fire alarm, but how did it set off the burglar alarm? After exploding, did the battery tip-toe out of the charger and try to escape out the window?



Lots of burglar alarms are meant to detect people messing with windows. They do this with a foil on the edge of the glass that will break if the window is broken. Perhaps the explosion damaged the foil.


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## wyager

AnAppleSnail said:


> Lots of burglar alarms are meant to detect people messing with windows. They do this with a foil on the edge of the glass that will break if the window is broken. Perhaps the explosion damaged the foil.



Windows will shake at even the slightest explosion-the foil or piezo based alarms will often be set off by, say, a gas oven failing to ignite and causing a small explosion.


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## Dave 300

Well mine turned up today after an order made back on june the 25th .How long was that and the funny thing is it arrived UPS and i had a handleing charge of another £16.64 since then i have recieved a spartan 1Watter a custom build 1.2 watt and a very good quality 635 200mw rafoss so now it dosent seem quite as special as it could have if it had arrived a bit quicker .
And just to let you know i have my charger chargeing outside.


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## Shiftlock

Dave 300 said:


> Well mine turned up today after an order made back on june the 25th .How long was that and the funny thing is it arrived UPS and i had a handleing charge of another £16.64 since then i have recieved a spartan 1Watter a custom build 1.2 watt and a very good quality 635 200mw rafoss so now it dosent seem quite as special as it could have if it had arrived a bit quicker .
> And just to let you know i have my charger chargeing outside.



I would be interested to hear how the Arctic compares to the other 445nm lasers you have there.


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## senecaripple

Dave 300 said:


> Well mine turned up today after an order made back on june the 25th .How long was that and the funny thing is it arrived UPS and i had a handleing charge of another £16.64 since then i have recieved a spartan 1Watter a custom build 1.2 watt and a very good quality 635 200mw rafoss so now it dosent seem quite as special as it could have if it had arrived a bit quicker .
> And just to let you know i have my charger chargeing outside.



same here. I too have received the spartan months ago. And have yet to fire it up, along with the other lasers ordered from other companies. In fact i hqve not posted at lpf in a long time. 
The thrill is gone. 
Have not been home. But i think my arctics have arrived.
How's ur arctic?


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## bshanahan14rulz

hank said:


> From an 'Arctic' review here:
> http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/30/arctic.htm
> 
> this:
> 
> "... From a posting on the Laser Pointer Forums (and used with explicit written consent; not just implied oral consent) comes the following {no changes to spelling, syntax or grammar were made}:
> 
> Hello everyone as you may know I've had my Arctics for a little while now....
> About an hour into charging I heard an explosion & large flash and awful burning smell from the room the charger & batteries where. Both my Fire Alarm & Burglar Alarm went off at the same time.
> 
> The WL 18650 battery had EXPLODED ...."



This is referring to the green "+ 18650 1300mAh -" cell.
WL has since chosen to supply what appears to be a 1400mAh MNKE LiMn cell.


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## Dave 300

Shiftlock said:


> I would be interested to hear how the Arctic compares to the other 445nm lasers you have there.




I had a quick go with my camera to get some pics of the Arctic , Spartan and the home build but i was getting alot of flash so i will post comparison pics soon as i get ten mins another day but as it goes the focusable home build at 1.2 mw has the best beam as it focusable the arctic has its g2 safety procedure which makes it quite unique and a fatter beam than the spartan but the spartan is mildly brighter than the arctic but has no charisma its just on off , at least the arctic is the one which really started it all off and wont be forgotten for a while even though it four months to the day to get here i kinda like it>>:thumbsup:


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## Shiftlock

Dave 300 said:


> I had a quick go with my camera to get some pics of the Arctic , Spartan and the home build but i was getting alot of flash so i will post comparison pics soon as i get ten mins another day but as it goes the focusable home build at 1.2 mw has the best beam as it focusable the arctic has its g2 safety procedure which makes it quite unique and a fatter beam than the spartan but the spartan is mildly brighter than the arctic but has no charisma its just on off , at least the arctic is the one which really started it all off and wont be forgotten for a while even though it four months to the day to get here i kinda like it>>:thumbsup:



Wow, what a sentence!


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## photon1c

Given that the lasers have a somewhat divergent, rectangular beam, has anyone started selling a drop-on solution to collimate these lasers?


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## bshanahan14rulz

There are coated single aspheric and multi-element lenses in standard "aixiz" lens barrels. Correcting for the different divergence relative to the axes is a bit more complicated, but can be done using external prisms or the right cylindrical lens.

fast axis collimation, anamorphic prisms, and beam correction are terms you can search for to get more information.


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## shintashi

are these guys at WL a bad business?
I've heard their products burn out in days, even minutes, and as many as 2 out of three have technical problems. Also saw a youtube video where the guy's arctic focus was way off. Also saw one compared to the spartan by dragon lasers and from what I saw, the WL burned brighter and more visible but the dragon cut through the target in half the time. 

Why is the WL so much more visible yet less hot? (sorry, I'm not an optics expert).


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## photon1c

I don't know if anyone still cares, 2 years and 20+ pages of discussion later, but...
After all the hub-bub I decided to buy one of these. That was many months ago and mine is still running strong and have had zero problems with the laser. I picked the earlier generation one, even though I was given the choice of the earlier generation or the later generation. To be honest, fiddling with the switch seemed to be a pain in the butt. I am glad I got the older version. I want to push a button and get the maximum beam immediately. 

However.

When I got it, I plugged in the charger and it POPPED loudly and quit working. I had to ask them to send a replacement. Also, I had to ask them twice to send the free laser glasses and lens cleaner pen they promised. When it looked like those items wouldn't come, I put in a complaint with my credit card company. 

Funniest part of the story- I got a full refund on the credit card, and a few weeks later all the stuff they owed me showed up. The laser has been working fine ever since, but I don't keep it on more than a minute or so at a time.

The beam is somewhat rectangular, but it's mostly just for showing off, not doing DIY holography :naughty:


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## Edwina

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

445nm，this may be able to wear out people's eyes.This sounds a little scary.What about the laser stage lihting?Should it not so big to human body damage.


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## AnAppleSnail

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*

Yes, this can destroy your eyes (detaching your retina instantly up close or by reflection). Stage lasers can damage camera sensors permanently, but usually trigger the human blink reflex in time. One concern is that cheap green lasers emit a lot of infrared light that does not activate the blink reflex but still heats the eye.


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## CDR_Glock

It's a nuisance to enter the code every time. I like the low power mode. It does SOS/Beacon/Strobe and continuous. The host looks nice. I doubt it's water resistant as claimed.

It's a decent one but I found mine used. For that price, I cannot complain.


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## StarHalo

*Re: Wicked Lasers 445nm 1W(!) portable deathray*



StarHalo said:


> I'm also wondering about low-orbit applications; if, on a clear night, you pointed this laser at the International Space Station (~200 miles away, but only ~70 miles contain air), would they be able to see it? Is this the moment any common person can buy a single light source visible from space?



UPDATE: Nine years later and we now have both rock-solid math plus solid evidence to answer this question:


----------

