# Review: ArcMania's new SMJLED2 PR2 SS review



## NewBie (Aug 12, 2006)

So, what is it?

This is the new, just released ArcMania SMJLED2 PR2 SS edition drop-in replacement bulb. It is beyond the older MJLED, the old four die SMJLED, and it is the brand new high output SMJLED2 PR SS edition.


Anticipation....


Freshly hitting the docks of The Sandwich Shoppe, this puppy was hot ticket rushed from their docks to my front door by none other than our very proud United States Postal Service, with a warm grin by my friendly Postman.


So, lets get down to the details.


Here we have the business end of the new, just released, ArcMania SMJLED2 PR2 SS edition drop-in:







.


The side-view of the new, just released, ArcMania SMJLED PR2 SS edition drop-in:






.


Okay, lets get this puppy installed, and see what roars under the hood:






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Well, what shall we use for comparision. Lets fire up the MagLED, and put it next to it. Not bad at all:






.


Lets unstop the light level a bit, and get the flood area into the picture, so we can check things out and see how this puppy really performs and where the light is going:






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Well now. Things are faring very well, so lets go grab a few other lights and see how things stack up. The contestants:






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Okay, this is where the rubber really meets the road, without further ado, lets take a look at how the apples fall:






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Lets once again, un-stop the camera iris a little, so we can start to see the flood area in live action:






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Finally, lets further un-stop the camera iris even more, so we can get a better idea of what the flood beam looks like:






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Not a bad little critter, especially for the dollar. It is good to figure in the shipping cost when considering the new SMJLED2 PR2 SS bulb, as it is a very real and important factor to take into consideration. I originally tried it in a few cheap plastic flashlights from Walmart, but the beam was so unfocused, I could not see it against the other flashlights, mostly being lost in the flood area of the other lights.

This is why I chose none other than the finest MagLite host for comparision.

I will be testing this little monster further, so stay tuned for more action with the latest version of the new ArcMania SMJLED2 PR2 SS in real live blow for blow action.


You can purchase one of these puppies at the infamous Sandwich Shoppe (ooh, I'm hungry now!):
http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.com/product_info.php?products_id=853


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As per request, here is the new ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS with a regular stock Krypton bulb (not a good Xenon-first thing to change in an incandescent flashlight) based Coleman 2D, and the regular MagLED:






.


Bracketed up:






.


And a highly over-exposed picture, showing the flood area of the various lights nicely, but the hotspots are over exposed badly and makes them all look the same brightness, see the previous shots for the center part of the beam :






.


---------------------------------------------


Here we have some real to life outdoor shots:






.


Bracketed up a bit:






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Bracket up even further:






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NewBie said:


> As per request, here is the new ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS with a regular stock Krypton bulb (not a good Xenon-first thing to change in an incandescent flashlight) based Coleman 2D, and the regular MagLED:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





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NewBie said:


> I did a little testing today, you can see here where I drilled in with a very small drill and stuck a K-type thermocouple underneath the reflector, on the lead. It was a bit cooler than the die was, it was at 70.1 degrees C (158.18F)at this point. The die was even a good bit warmer than that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




-----


Okay, folks are wondering what the various parts are that are in the ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS that is sold at The Shoppe.

I took the module and scrubbed all the flux and junk off it with acetone to make the parts more clear in the photograph.

I've pointed out what each part is, and the probable cost. However, these parts would be alot lower in cost over seas. For example, a 0.1 uF capacitor may cost 0.01 ea here in the USA. However, in Taiwan, where there is still a price markup over the cost in China, one would likely pay 0.0037 ea for these.

Also, this is not a current regulated switcher IC design, it is a simple single NPN transistor oscillator rigged up as a boost supply.







The other half of the product, digging deeper into how it is made:






Chevrofreak, with his eagle eye, has pointed out this product looks remarkably like the Sino Union NIGHT PEARL LED BULB (NPLB) device out of Hong Kong. The internal circuitry is remarkably similar, it uses the same transistor, a smaller schottky diode, one resistor value is slightly different, and the layout has been slightly modified.






An old picture of their first device from way back:




http://www.sinounion.com.hk/index1.htm


***Please be aware that I've witheld alot of additional information on this review on purpose, as I did not want to cast things into too much of a negative light. That was also the purpose of my colorful presentation, to detract from the performance aspect, until the seller had an opportunity to address things. I have still withheld information, so as a buyer, please beware, and make your choices accordingly.


-------


Okay, pulled out the oscilloscope, and took a look at a few waveforms that were on the module, with an input voltage of 2.503 Volts:















--------


Okay, here is some interesting stuff.

I took the module, and coupled it to a Luxeon QYOG emitter (extremely low Vf- 2.818V causes 0.212 Amps of current to flow). I did this to decouple the LED from the circuit performance. The Luxeon QYOG was attached to a large slab of copper to reduce the effects of heat.





















With a really good outstanding LED, this circuit, obviously not regulated, still would make for a decent hurricane emergency light.

Between 1.5 and 2.5 Volts, the circuit shows a somewhat respectable efficiency of 70-80% when using an underdriven, ultra low Vf, LumiLEDs Luxeon QYOG LED.

The LED that was used in the SMJLED2 PR SS, actually didn't turn on until after most LEDs (higher VF than my Nichia BS and CS LEDs). The high Vf does help to reduce the current pull, but as we all know, high Vf LEDs tend to be less efficient.

I might be tempted to take a turn off the inductor/transformer's output winding, to reduce the circuit's output for a longer runtime. It would also be alot easier on the LED.

The circuit continued to produce light ouput down to 0.2957V (rather dim), which is a characteristic of these common "Joule Thief" type circuits.


-----


I have purchased additional SMJLED2 PR SS bulbs, and I am seeing very little difference, if any at all, from the first one.

I went down and purchased a low cost host, which in this case was a Garrity AA Glo light. Several folks said this would be the type of flashlight they'd use this blub in.

During the Super Heavy Duty cell run, my light meter software had an error at ~140 and 7 hours, so everything after that was deleted.

The Alkaline cells were Energizer Max, just purchased, with date code 2010.

There are multiple lines for each cell, since Excel 97 does not like to plot 134,000 datapoints at once. (Yes, samples were taken, once each second) It still hollers at me, but it works (it doesn't like over 32,000 datapoints on a graph).

I have runtimes on NiMH and Lithium to go yet.







I believe it was Quickbeam that started the runtime definition, as time to 50% output. Using this definition:

Super Heavy Duty cells: 2.9 hours
Alkaline cells: 10.5 hours


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Christoph said:


> Looking for this




Hi Christoph.

I'm sorry this is taking so long.

The reason why it is taking so long, is that I found a problem with the SMJLED2 PR SS.

I had a file glitch on the first Lithium cell run, then the second time, the light meter cells went dead, so I am on my third run now.

But these issues allowed me to stumble on something else. Each time I found there was a loss of light output. It works out to be a 45% loss (for the initial peak during the run) by only the third set of Energizer e^2 Lithium AA cells.

The brown trace in interrupted due to the file glitch.

The medium blue trace is where the batteries went dead.

The green trace is the third lithium AA run.







I have a third ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS which I purchased that I will be doing a life runtime on, off a regulated power supply, to see if it is the Lithium cells that are killing it, or if it is just due to the drive to the LED.


-----


I took my third ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS, and connected it to a regulated 2.8V power supply. At the bulb, I added an 1,800 uF capacitor, so wire lengths would not affect things.

I chose 2.8V, as it is close to what a very lightly loaded NiMH does, and they discharge relatively flat, and is less than what lightly loaded Alkaline D cells would be.

It appears as though some of the light drop over time, that I'd originally considered might be due to the battery voltage dropping, is accentuated by the rapid lumen loss of the 5mm LED over time.


Okay, well it is time to put this one to rest.

The LED's light output has dropped by 20 times it's peak value in the begining.

Thus it has reached only 5% of its original light output level.

The final chart is below, as well as the actual data source file, if you'd like to download it and play with it a bit yourself.







Source data for download:
http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/smjled2.xls


Here you can see how the phosphor is now really dark over the die:






I took a Royal Blue LED, to excite the phosphor, and notice how the phosphor is no longer excited by the blue light over the die area:






Here is the die lit up, notice how there is very little yellow being produced above and near the die, and how it is darkish over the die:






Oh, and before I forget:
- The current draw by the bulb was 0.2A @ 2.8V, the same as it was at the beginning of the test.


And finally, we have the comparision beamshots against some low output flashlights I dug up, after ArcMania's SMJLED2 PR SS has had ~245 hours on it:






One of the many photos of what went wrong in the ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS, many more are shown later in this thread:






One of our cpf'ers asked me to cross-section one of the LEDs that hasn't burned itself up yet. Here is one of the photos, there are many more, towards the end of the thread:


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## 270winchester (Aug 12, 2006)

*Re: Review: ArcMania's new SMJLED PR2 SS review*

it's gonna be one long haul for the runtime test.


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## TinderBox (UK) (Aug 12, 2006)

*Re: Review: ArcMania's new SMJLED PR2 SS review*

I have yet to see a comparison with an standard SMJLED PR2.

regards.


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## adirondackdestroyer (Aug 12, 2006)

*Re: Review: ArcMania's new SMJLED PR2 SS review*



TinderBox (UK) said:


> I have yet to see a comparison with an standard SMJLED PR2.
> 
> regards.


 
I second that.  

If you could do a comparison against a standard SMJLED PR2, a stock 2D Mag, and maybe something else comparable.


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## MorpheusT1 (Aug 12, 2006)

*Re: Review: ArcMania's new SMJLED PR2 SS review*

Thanks for the Review 



Do you have any other more similar lights/leds to compare it to?
Seems a bit unfair to compare with Lux III and Contenders like the PD-III.


How about a comparison between the new and old smjled.
Both PR Versions in the same host/reflector for example.




Again thank you for doing this,
Benny


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## karlthev (Aug 12, 2006)

Let's play nice now.....


Karl


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## NewBie (Aug 12, 2006)

Sorry, MagLite's MagLED was among the lowest output lights I have, besides the Q3, besides those little tiny keychain lights that use button cells.

The MagLite is a little better host anyhow, since it has an internal metal barrel and the metal screw cap to help heatsink the new ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS, so it would do the very best it could in the review.


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## nerdgineer (Aug 12, 2006)

It would be nice to see some indication of SMJLED2 run time. Lots of lights are bright on fresh cells and then drop off in that typical (and annoying) alkaline runtime curve where most of the output is lost right away so the average output over the battery life is much lower.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 12, 2006)

Let's see one 84 cent 2AA with an "old" SMJLED PR against one with a "new" Arcmania PR LED. That to me would be the ultimate test!

Because with the exception of a Rayovac Swivel Head 2D, there ain't a better host!


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## ViReN (Aug 12, 2006)

I had thought that SMJLED is 4 die... isnt this a single die??


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## NewBie (Aug 12, 2006)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> Let's see one 84 cent 2AA with an "old" SMJLED PR against one with a "new" Arcmania PR LED. That to me would be the ultimate test!
> 
> Because with the exception of a Rayovac Swivel Head 2D, there ain't a better host!




Humm, well, at 11 dollars for the new special ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS, plus 2.43 for shipping, it puts you into it at the tune of 13.43, which is pretty close to the MagLED at 18.86 ea. 

Oh, btw, a little secret, you can open the MagLED, and increase the sense resistor value to underdrive it further.


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## ViReN (Aug 12, 2006)

NewBie said:


>



NewBie, a request, Could you compare this "SMJLED" with Coin Cell light? perhaps a PhotonFreedom or any Nichia CS based Coin Cell light...


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## LED Zeppelin (Aug 13, 2006)

Newbie,

I think you'll find that many of us are already owners of one, or several, (or a couple dozen) of the original SMJLED PR bulbs. 

We know it doesn't compare to the big boys, but take those same beamshots at 5 hour intervals for a week and that will tell the rest of the story. 

I'd also like to see beamshot and runtime comparisons for the original SMJLED PR bulb, the new SS version, and the stock host. I'm wondering if the runtime of the SS is sacrificed to achieve the additional brightness. If not, I'll be ordering some of these.

Thanks for doing this.


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## NewBie (Aug 13, 2006)

As per request, here is the new ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS with a regular stock Krypton bulb (not a good Xenon-first thing to change in an incandescent flashlight) based Coleman 2D, and the regular MagLED:






.


Bracketed up:






.


And a highly over-exposed picture, showing the flood area of the various lights nicely, but the hotspots are over exposed badly and makes them all look the same brightness, see the previous shots for the center part of the beam :






.


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## chesterqw (Aug 13, 2006)

wow... this really tell us that the mag's reflector is design for REALLY pure throw...

look at the size of that SMJLED's beam!!


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## NewBie (Aug 13, 2006)

chesterqw said:


> wow... this really tell us that the mag's reflector is design for REALLY pure throw...
> 
> look at the size of that SMJLED's beam!!




Yes, very true, it isn't as bright as the MagLED in the hotspot, and it covers less than 1/5th to 1/6th the area, even in the same reflector. Another very key thing is to look at the light in the flood area from each of the flashlights and compare them.


.


Here we have some real to life outdoor shots:






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Bracketed up a bit:






.


Bracket up even further:


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## Burgess (Aug 13, 2006)

Thank you for your time and effort, NewBie !







Any chance you can measure the Current Draw on this new bulb ?


You make a good point about price. With shipping, it's about DOUBLE
the cost of the previous SMJLED-PR bulb (sold by Lambda, and True Blue).


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## NewBie (Aug 13, 2006)

You are quite welcome.

Off of 2.945V(now used cells) I get 175mA, which happens to be 0.515 Watts.

In comparision, after the MagLED warms up, like it was in all the beamshots above, you are looking at about 1W draw.


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## karlthev (Aug 13, 2006)

When did you get this at the Shoppe? Is this the newest? I thought the upcoming latest were still in the works? 


Karl


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## LEDninja (Aug 13, 2006)

The PR2 version is available last week. (The Shoppe is on vacation Aug12-22)
http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.com/product_info.php?products_id=853
The bi-pin version for minimags will come 'soon'.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 13, 2006)

Nothing I've seen yet recommends this new Arcmania SMJLED over the M*gled.

But then you can't really put a M*gled in a dinky 2AA light....

Still wish to see side-by-side 2AA hosts with old and new beamshots!


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## NewBie (Aug 13, 2006)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> Nothing I've seen yet recommends this new Arcmania SMJLED over the M*gled.
> 
> But then you can't really put a M*gled in a dinky 2AA light....
> 
> Still wish to see side-by-side 2AA hosts with old and new beamshots!




This ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS is a PR bulb type unit, not the Mini-Mag Drop-in.

There is another thread somewhere here on CPF covering the MagLite 2AA drop-in.


Ah, here it is:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/127907&page=3&pp=40


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## TinderBox (UK) (Aug 13, 2006)

*Re: Review: ArcMania's new SMJLED PR2 SS review*

I quote my self, still no comparison with an SMJLED PR2.



TinderBox (UK) said:


> I have yet to see a comparison with an standard SMJLED PR2.
> 
> regards.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 13, 2006)

NewBie said:


> This ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS is a PR bulb type unit, not the Mini-Mag Drop-in.
> 
> There is another thread somewhere here on CPF covering the MagLite 2AA drop-in.
> 
> ...



I know full well what I was talking about and it wasn't a Minim*g LED.

I mean the 2,3 or 4 cell M*gled PRs. I don't see from anything shown so far to make the Arcmania SMJLED PR better than the M*gled PR.

But AGAIN, you can't put a M*gled in much of anything besides at least a 2C M*g.

The "old" SMJLED PR works GREAT in several 2AA hosts, the 84 cent "United-Outdoor" 2AA being among the best.

Therefor a beamshot or several of the new "Arcmania" SMJLED PR against an "old" SMJLED PR in the same type host will be the most telling. Should that host be the U-O 84 cent 2AA it would be all the better!


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## NewBie (Aug 13, 2006)

Ah, I see what you guys are saying.

You would like a the new SMJLED2 PR SS compared with the SMJLED PR.

Well, as chance would have it, I have none of the old SMJLED PR in order to do a comparision. Maybe Michael Jordan (ArcMania) or someone that would like to find out, could send one of these new super ones to www.flashlightreviews.com and Quickbeam could oblidge with a suitable review.


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## Ty_Bower (Aug 13, 2006)

:thinking: I dunno why, but the output of this thing looks a lot like my original Turtlelight.


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## Sigman (Aug 15, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Ah, I see what you guys are saying.
> 
> You would like a the new SMJLED2 PR SS compared with the SMJLED PR...


EXACTLY what was asked for in post #3...Guess I'm confused as to why you decided to compare it to unlike products?


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## NewBie (Aug 15, 2006)

Sigman said:


> EXACTLY what was asked for in post #3...Guess I'm confused as to why you decided to compare it to unlike products?



Please see post #25, three posts up from this one.




See also, post #7.


.


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## LEDninja (Aug 15, 2006)

ViReN said:


> I had thought that SMJLED is 4 die... isnt this a single die??


I listed all the MILED vaeiants I know of here:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=128865
MJLED - ISP 100mA die
SMJLED (inc. SMJLED PR*2*)- 4 die
SMJLED2 (inc.SS PR previously called SMJLED*2* PR) - Cree Xlamp die

EDIT Incorrect info deleted. See post 34


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 15, 2006)

I don't have all the test equipment, nor even a great digital camera. But I would do my best to do a head-to-head with an "old" SMJLED PR if someone sent me a "new" ARCmania SMJLED PR.

In the pictures at the top of this thread it seems to be a pinpoint throw monster...


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## abvidledUK (Aug 15, 2006)

Absolutely pointless.

New PR2 v Old PR2 SMJLED is the only comparison that matters.....

Output & RT.

My old PR2 SMJLED's RT=13 hours

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1419691&postcount=76

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1419873&postcount=84


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## Sigman (Aug 15, 2006)

Newbie - then the review is lacking important information. Apples to oranges - when we would like apples to apples...

Don't get me wrong - it's a GREAT start, just needs a little more info. I understand it takes time to put it all together and that's respected, but hate to draw any conclusions when it's compared to something that isn't really in the same aisle, eh?

Hopefully another member can contribute and make it all come together?


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## ViReN (Aug 15, 2006)

LEDninja said:


> I listed all the MILED vaeiants I know of here:
> http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=128865
> MJLED - ISP 100mA die
> SMJLED (inc. SMJLED PR*2*)- 4 die
> ...



hey thats a vast amount of information  

thanks for posting the thread... its so kind of you... its really appreciated.

ViReN


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## NewBie (Aug 15, 2006)

LEDninja said:


> I listed all the MILED vaeiants I know of here:
> http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=128865
> MJLED - ISP 100mA die
> SMJLED (inc. SMJLED PR*2*)- 4 die
> ...




The XLamp doesn't use a reflector that looks anything like that, the die is soldered on the flat ceramic backing. In otherwords, it doesn't have a reflector so to speak.


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## fieldops (Aug 16, 2006)

I picked up a new smjled2 PR2 SS from the shoppe and an original smjled from Lighthound. It was no brighter than the smjled from Lighthound. Maybe I got a bad smjled2? Dunno. I have ordered 2 more to test.


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## NewBie (Aug 16, 2006)

Here is what comprises the XLamp die, you can see how it is soldered on the ceramic substrate, underneath the ESD diode:







I also imaged the 5mm LED that is in the SMJLED2 PR SS in action:


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## LEDninja (Aug 16, 2006)

NewBie said:


> The XLamp doesn't use a reflector that looks anything like that, the die is soldered on the flat ceramic backing. In otherwords, it doesn't have a reflector so to speak.


I need new glasses. Editing my post.


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## LEDninja (Aug 16, 2006)

fieldops said:


> I picked up a new smjled2 PR2 SS from the shoppe and an original smjled from Lighthound. It was no brighter than the smjled from Lighthound. Maybe I got a bad smjled2? Dunno. I have ordered 2 more to test.


Got my SS PR.
Same brightness and beam pattern as the SMJLED PR from Lighthound.
The SS PR has a much warmer tint, halfway between my L1P and my Civictor. Do not know if that is typical of this bulb. The tint of my SMJLED PR is all over the place. 2 have the cool white of 5mm LEDs, 1 is out and out blue.
With the SMJLED2 PR in a Dorcy Gelbrite, I get a donut hole 12" from the wall or closer. The donut hole does not appear with the SS PR until about 8".


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## fieldops (Aug 16, 2006)

LEDninja said:


> Got my SS PR.
> Same brightness and beam pattern as the SMJLED2 PR from Lighthound.
> The SS PR has a much warmer tint, halfway between my L1P and my Civictor. Do not know if that is typical of this bulb. The tint of my SMJLED2 PR is all over the place. 2 have the cool white of 5mm LEDs, 1 is out and out blue.
> With the SMJLED2 PR in a Dorcy Gelbrite, I get a donut hole 12" from the wall or closer. The donut hole does not appear with the SS PR until about 8".



I didn't know that Lighthound had the new SMJLED2 PR. I didn't see it, I thought they only had the SMJLED PR. Thanks, I'll check it out as the Shoppe is on vacation until the 22nd.


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## NewBie (Aug 17, 2006)

I did a little testing today, you can see here where I drilled in with a very small drill and stuck a K-type thermocouple underneath the reflector, on the lead. It was a bit cooler than the die was, it was at 70.1 degrees C (158.18F)at this point. The die was even a good bit warmer than that.







Removing the outer PR base, one finds an aluminum sleeve, to aid in carrying the heat to the PR base, some thermal paste between this sleeve and the LED leads, internal contact mechanism as well as the PCB and inductor.






Here we have the torroidial "transformer", and converter circuit. The free bottom lead was soldered to the "base" of the SOT-23, and the upper free lead was soldered to the "collector" of the SOT-23. You will also notice the schottky diode at the bottom of the picture, as well as three capacitors and one resistor:






Here I have carefully removed the phosphor, you can still see some of the phosphor and epoxy mix at the bottom, in a thin layer, that makes things look grainy. This LED still uses the old epoxy phosphor mix that degrades more rapidly with heat, and causes lumen loss over a short period of time. I was hoping to find that the phosphor mix was of the long lasting silicone gel base, which can also deal with considerably more heat, and a much slower degradation rate. 

You will notice, * This LED (SMJLED2 PR SS) does NOT use a CREE XLamp die*






In another thread it was claimed the SMJLED2 PR SS used a CREE XLamp die, it is definitely not a CREE XLamp die.


A better close-up of the die that is not a CREE XLamp die:






Another shot of the SMJLED2 PR SS die (not a CREE Xlamp die):






Additional shots of the CREE XLamp die for comparision purposes:


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## LEDninja (Aug 17, 2006)

fieldops said:


> I didn't know that Lighthound had the new SMJLED2 PR. I didn't see it, I thought they only had the SMJLED PR. Thanks, I'll check it out as the Shoppe is on vacation until the 22nd.


OOPS!. Sorry.
Typo. I meant the 4 die SMJLED from Lighthound.
Post corrected.

Now you see how easy to cause confusion among the models of the MJLED. Put the 2 in the wrong place.



NewBie said:


> You will notice, * This LED (SMJLED2 PR SS) does NOT use a CREE XLamp die*


I better go fix my post in the other thread.

Thanks for taking the bulb apart fo find out more.
...and all the king's horses and all the king's men...
Do you think you can put SS PR back together again?


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## NewBie (Aug 17, 2006)

LEDninja said:


> Thanks for taking the bulb apart fo find out more.




You are very welcome.


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## ouchmyfinger (Aug 17, 2006)

Newbie,

I am continually amazed at your autopsies. You are truly CPF's own mythbuster. You mention some temperature measurments. Can you comment on what they mean; is that a reasonable temperature, or is it hot enough to degrade performance?


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## GeoffChan (Aug 17, 2006)

Wow, great pics Doug

Geoff


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## chimo (Aug 17, 2006)

Newbie, excellent dissection and great photos!

Paul


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## QuadMan (Aug 17, 2006)

Hi all!

Long time lurker, first time poster.

After looking at comments on this thread, including LEDninja's in post 38, I wonder if the PR2 SS is a newer version of the WPR2 that was being sold by TrueBlue on this thread (see halfway down post #1): https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/120800&page=1&pp=30 Note these characteristics: single die, smaller hotspot and warmer colors. 

I say newer version because the PR2 SS should have some kind of regulation as noted in posts 72 and 84 in this thread: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/127907&page=1&pp=40

NewBie, did you notice any signs of regulation in the build of the circuit while you were deconstructing the bulb? I know you show a close up of the circuit but I plead ignorance in this area.

Thanks to all for this wonderful website!!!






Don


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## NewBie (Aug 19, 2006)

This is the newer version, the bulb is even stamped SS, unlike the ones in that thread. You can see it in some of the pictures in the first post.

Haven't had a chance to do a regulation test. I'll do that on some of the next ones.


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## milkyspit (Aug 20, 2006)

fieldops said:


> I picked up a new smjled2 PR2 SS from the shoppe and an original smjled from Lighthound. It was no brighter than the smjled from Lighthound. Maybe I got a bad smjled2? Dunno. I have ordered 2 more to test.



Fieldops, same experience for me. Posted *over here *with some photos.


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## AlexGT (Aug 20, 2006)

Hi Newbie!

Very interesting thread!, I appreciate the hard hours you have put into this review, and all the findings you have made. :goodjob: 


My bottom line for getting yet another one of this bulbs (I have a few already) would be a comparison pic against the old SMJLED PR. If it's brighter and with same or close enough runtime to the old SMJLED PR I might just give my old ones as gifts and order a new set of bulbs.

Maybe I missed the comparison pic against the old SMJLED PR, this thread is long! Any one saw the post number where I can find it? If not available yet, I understand, this things take time.

Keep up the good work!

AlexGT


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## NewBie (Aug 20, 2006)

milkyspit said:


> Fieldops, same experience for me. Posted *over here *with some photos.



Very interesting news milkyspit! Two folks have now confirmed they have the same output.

Were your's also clearly greenies, like others have mentioned to me? Mine was like a strong luxeon X1 color bin.

If you get a chance, I'd much appreciate it if you could put both of them in some comparision photos, and drop it right here in this thread.


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## milkyspit (Aug 20, 2006)

Newbie, not sure if I'll have time to post side-by-side photos today, but if I have a spare moment I'll try.

In the meantime... and this comes with a HUGE disclaimer that I don't try to judge which color is "better" as my preference is no more authoritative than anyone else's... plus my estimate of tint bins is most definitely prone to error... really just an educated guess... here's what I see...

Original SMJ-PR gen1 bulb: looks noticeably dimmer than the other two bulbs... would call the tint YA... very cool with blue clearly evident.

Lighthound SMJ-PR gen2 bulb: looks to the eye about 50-100% brighter than the gen1 bulb and about equal to the Shoppe bulb... would call the tint XO... to my eye this one's closest to a neutral white of the three.

Shoppe SMJ-PR-SS bulb: looks to the eye to be about 50-100% brighter than the gen1 bulb and about equal to the Lighthound bulb, with a definite warm, faintly green tint... I would call the tint a V1, similar to Luxeon 1W SV1H.

Remember, anytime multiple tints of LEDs are compared there's the infamous mutual tint distortion effect! LEDs that might have looked white by themselves suddenly look blue, or green, or beige... they play off one another and reveal each others' imperfections. That's why it's difficult to do side-by-side LED comparisons! oo:


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## fieldops (Aug 20, 2006)

Ok, you got me to try it. I'm posting the beamshots between the SMJLED2 SS PR and the original SMJLED. Hope they came out ok, as they are my first ones. I think it clearly shows what Milkyspit and I have said on the beam description. I leave others to judge it. 

I used 2 cheap Energizer lights using 2AA alkalines.
















Not the best pics, but I hope you find them usefull

fieldops


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## TinderBox (UK) (Aug 20, 2006)

:huh2:

hello fieldops

have you got the picture mixed up, because the SMJLED looks better than the SMJLED2.

regards.


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## fieldops (Aug 20, 2006)

Unfortunately, that's the point. The SMJLED was better, at least that I've tried. I was quite surprised. I wish it was a mixup


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## Lit Up (Aug 20, 2006)

Think I may just stick with the previous SMJLED PR version.

The newer one looks whiter, but not necessarily brighter. And seems to have a smaller hotspot. And I already know the previous version gets insane runtimes.


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## NewBie (Aug 20, 2006)

fieldops said:


> Unfortunately, that's the point. The SMJLED was better, at least that I've tried. I was quite surprised. I wish it was a mixup




Great photos fieldops!!! Thanks alot, folks have been asking for exactly that.

It is unfortunate that ArcMania's new SMJLED2 PR SS didn't fare well against the older SMJLED PR. At least it matched the intensity of the old one, which is good.

I'm surprised at the tint difference between ArcMania's SMJLED2 PR SS and the old SMJLED PR.

Yours new SMJLED2 PR SS quite green, just like mine.

milkyspit, if you'd still like to contribute some beamshots, a second reference point would be much appreciated.

If you could, try and not saturate the hotspot as much, which washes out the true color.


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## john2551 (Aug 21, 2006)

Fieldops,

Can you kindly do a runtime test of both bulbs using those 2AA lights.

Thanks,

John


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## fieldops (Aug 21, 2006)

Yeah, I should be able to do that sometime this week John. It will be visual only, but that's how we use lights anyway. It will be done like I did with the Infinity Ultra/Inova X1 tests.

e.g. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/125921


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## QuadMan (Aug 22, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Haven't had a chance to do a regulation test. I'll do that on some of the next ones.


 
NewBie, that would be great if you could do some regulation tests. I'm really amazed and appreciative of your in-depth reviews, especially the Magled dropins!








NewBie said:


> This is the newer version, the bulb is even stamped SS, unlike the ones in that thread. You can see it in some of the pictures in the first post.


I should clarify my previous post. TrueBlue was selling 2 versions of the SMJLED PR(2) in this thread: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...00&page=1&pp=30

Post #1 of TrueBlue's thread shows a 4 die bulb (original SMJLED PR(2)) and a newer single die bulb (that TrueBlue calls WPR2) for sale.

Looking at the comments of people who bought the WPR2 it appears to be a single die led, with a warmer (greenish), smaller hotspot and similar brightness to the original 4 die bulb. 

From comments here, the SMJLED2 SS PR appears to be a single die led, with a warmer (greenish), smaller hotspot and similar brightness to the original 4 die bulb. 

My question is this: do the SMJLED2 SS PR and the WPR2 use the same (or similar) led?






Anybody have a WPR2 they would be willing to donate to NewBie to dissect for the sake of knowledge? Anybody?


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## NewBie (Aug 23, 2006)

I have no clue to the differences between the WPR2, and the ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS that is sold at the Shoppe. 

All I know, is the SMJLED2 PR SS is the new latest version, which only The Shoppe is supposed to have. 

Milkyspit and Fieldops posted a few beam shots that show essentially the same output between the old one and the new one, just the new one looks to have a greener output, like a Luxeon X1 bin. They were supposed to be alot brighter.

According to TrueBlue, these were CREE XLamp LEDs, but then ArcMania clarified and specifically said they have the CREE XLamp 1W die in them. It is quite clear they do not. I've asked in TrueBlue's thread where this was discussed, and I have not heard anything to date on the problem. It is possible that they are trying to figure out what went wrong.

Maybe the manufacturer goofed up, who knows...


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## fieldops (Aug 23, 2006)

I've started the visual runtime tests on the SMJLED2 SS PR and the original SMJLED. I used the same energizer 2AA lights that were in the beamshots earlier in this thread. Batteries were Duracell alkalines tested for voltage before intalling.

1. We just passed the 13 hour mark. Both lights are running well and appear about 70% of original brightness (I have a third identical Energizer light using SMJLED with new batteries for comparison). Both of the 2 lights are still near equal brightness of each other as they were during the start of the test. No changes in beam color have been notes. Next check at 24 hours.


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## QuadMan (Aug 23, 2006)

NewBie, thanks for the reply.

After reading your post it sounds like I should ask TrueBlue, possibly in his thread where he was selling the WPR2s.

However, I might wait awhile or be very careful how I frame my question. What with closed threads and all, it seems this topic has gotten rather HOT lately. Since I'm fairly new here I don't want to get on anyone's bad side.






My main interest here is in the evolution of this product family and figuring out all the variations (like LEDninja is doing in this thread: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1559159 ). 




My observation for today is this: whether for better or worse, all the variations of this product family that are "currently" for sale appear to be using a single die LED.






------------------


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 23, 2006)

Whatever else may be the case, the ones I got from TrueBlue and Lambda a few/several weeks ago are GOOD STUFF!!!!

One COULD ask for warmer tint... but it isn't REALLY a biggy...


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## Rommul (Aug 23, 2006)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> Whatever else may be the case, the ones I got from TrueBlue and Lambda a few/several weeks ago are GOOD STUFF!!!!
> 
> One COULD ask for warmer tint... but it isn't REALLY a biggy...



I plan to get quite a few of these despite all the axe grinding.


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## karlthev (Aug 23, 2006)

Thanks Playboy for the guts to say something positive here. I've been "Chicken Little" with any comments. 

I've been on the forum for some time and have a fair collection of some of the very best lights offered here I have been able to afford. All have attributes and compromises. I'm most often rather positive in my comments on virtually all of these lights and some may believe not as discerning as I should be. I find most all of what I have acquired positive in some way or another, all having limitations.

I can't think of one transaction of purchasing a light/part on CPF where I didn't get what I wanted (new or pre-owned) after I had the chance to actually use what I had gotten. There may have been a time or two when I felt there a need to have what I bought looked at by the seller but, all deals went through smoothly in the end.

I have had some of the fine folks on CPF go to some incredible lengths to assist me in spending my money (heh, heh!) by using their PayPal and then having me reimburse them. I had another fine individual be the middleman for a transaction which I was unsure about. Not a kink in the transaction rather a fun "story" to follow my light across the country. Nice guy to help--TrueBlue is his name.

As I said, maybe I was chicken to say anything so far but, for whatever happens, I have. I do not think that there has been any intentional deception, "snookering", lying or intended false claims here and I would hope that some of the honest evaluations will eventually prove both TrueBlue and Arcmania to be the honest folks whom I know them to be. 

I'll continue to be on here and comment...and buy...from time to time as my shrinking budget allows. My purchases will be from the many fine folks I have "met" here and I will trust them all until they prove me wrong, something I do hope will never happen. I'll try not to offend anyone in the future and do hope I have not here. I will welcome educational constructive evaluations and will continue to detest trashing. I hope and know I am not alone.

Thanks for the "listening".


Karl


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## QuadMan (Aug 23, 2006)

Rommul said:


> I plan to get quite a few of these despite all the axe grinding.


 
Yes, I too plan on getting at least a couple of these, strictly for testing purposes, heh, heh!





I was planning on waiting for more to appear on TrueBlues sale thread, but I'm getting that "itch" and I can't take it much longer!





I think I'll get one from Lighthound and one from the shoppe for starters. Now to start looking for good hosts to put them in.





Don

P.S. I just love using these little smilely guys!!


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## eebowler (Aug 23, 2006)

Thank you Newbie for the wonderful review and for updating your first post with new information and thanks to milkyspit and fieldops for the additional information and pics. :twothumbs to all of you!

Milkyspit, from fieldops' pictures, I'll guess that the SS SMJLED2 has an X1 tint. My RV1J LEDs have a much warmer tint with a sprinkle of yellow (all from the same batch.)

Newbie: From the pictues you've shown of the SS SMJLED2 die, how can I determine how many dies it has? (Pics I'm refering to are the last set in post 1 and the set in post 36.) I've taken a picture of the LED of a SL Enduro headlamp and it obviously has three dies in it. 

Thanks.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 23, 2006)

Thanks for that Karl!

Here is a rather crummy pic of two 84 cent 2AA lights and a Rayovac Swivel Head 2D with SMJLEDs from either Lambda or TrueBlue, but I know not which.
They were acquired some weeks ago, before the Arcmania stuff showed up!


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## fieldops (Aug 23, 2006)

*Re: Review: ArcMania's new SMJLED2 PR2 SS review: 24hr runtime update*

At 15 hours the new SMJLED2 SS PR2 began to fade noticeably against the original SMJLED with a very green color. At 18 hours the SMJLED SS PR2 was down to just a trickle of light. The original SMJLED was still going well with plenty of light. At 20 hours the new SMJLED2 SS PR2 was completely dead, the original still going strong. At 24 hours, the original is still going well, but down a bit. It is still, however, brighter than an Inova X1 (new type) with new batteries in it! I'm quite impressed! Remember, I'm talking about 2 AA batteries, NOT 2 D cells!

*Thoughts on the new SMJLED2 SS PR2:

*I have to admit, I'm dissappointed. If it were brighter than the original, I was expecting the shortened runtime. Since it was no brighter than the regular SMJLED, it was surprising. 

*Thoughts on the original SMJLED:

*Well, I have to say hear that this is a real winner! It puts out a real nice amount of light, it's cheap, and it runs a long time. My hat's off to the SMJLED, it's a GOOD product and one of the best ways to turn a junk cheap incandescent into a real nice LED light. It has to be one of my favorite picks for an emergency light for hurricanes, power outages etc. I will continue the SMJLED in its current test to see just how long it will last. As far as I'm concerned, every hour is just icing on the cake now! I will update the SMJLED as the test concludes.


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## BigusLightus (Aug 24, 2006)

Hey Playboy,

Did you have to mod your Rayovac swivel head to make the SMJLED work? I have four PR2's that work in everything except my swivel head. For some reason its just not making the connection. Thanks.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k88/biguslightus/400x426.jpg


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 24, 2006)

I have the batteries installed backwards Bigus. It has connections that allow for this easily. 

I know this because I fried an Everled in that light!!!


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## BigusLightus (Aug 24, 2006)

Thank you Playboy. Now it works great. This has been one of my all time favorite flashlights. Now, stoked with an SMJLED PR, it really kicks a**.





Thanks again.


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## fieldops (Aug 24, 2006)

The original SMJLED is now past the 38 hour test mark. It still has ample light to navigate, read, and work. This little critter is really something. Test still ongoing.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 24, 2006)

FAR OUT Fieldops! I MAY not need anything else but my 2D Swivel Head if another Rita shows up!

If 2AA is good for 38+ hours, 2D has to be a LOT more!!!

Good pic Bigus!!!!


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## fieldops (Aug 25, 2006)

the original SMJLED is now just a couple of minutes from 50 hours into the run test! It still has good enough light to navigate, read, and do work. This is very impressive indeed! Updates to follow...test still in progress.


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## fieldops (Aug 25, 2006)

*Conclusion of original SMJLED runtime test

*I have concluded the Original SMJLED runtime test. The test came to a conclusion at the_* 66 hour mark! *_This has been an outstanding result. At the end of the test, the SMJLED was still producing a dim hotspot and was good enough to navigate and read a newspaper with the light being 2-3 feet away. This shows me that the original SMJLED is quite the long runner and perfect for emergencies. Remember that this test only used 2AA alkalines and not C or D cells. Runtime with such cells would be astronomical. ( yeah, I'm thinking about doing another test withe D cells  The curve on the FLR test gave the hint that such runtimes were possible. Lets just say that its a long long way from the FLR 50% output down to the 20-10%% output number. I may still carry the Infinity Ultra in my pack for size, but at home the SMJLED in a cheap host is the King now.

*Final numbers to conclude using the Energizer 2 AA hosts with Duracell Alkaline batteries:

SMJLED2 PR2 SS runtime: 20 hours

Original SMJLED runtime: 66 hours 

Brightness of both LEDs at the start were about equal.
*


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## nerdgineer (Aug 25, 2006)

Very interesting. When I was testing my original Buckalite (CR123 driving a SMJLED PR bulb), my rough measurements suggested that the SMJLED PR bulb got about 3 times the efficency (i.e. total light output out of a CR123) as most typical 1xCR123 LED lights. By your measurement, the SMJLED2 PR2 bulb appears to deliver the efficiency of a regular LED light, i.e. about 1/3 what the old version produced.

I look forward to seeing an actual run time curve of the new bulb to see the payoff and efficiency cost of the new bulb's claimed current regulation more quantitatively.


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## xochi (Aug 25, 2006)

The Master strikes again! Great review and that ever so slight sardonic tone brought a smile to my face. Thanks for helping me make wise buying decisions, or perhaps I should say thanks for helping me wisely refrain from buying.

Keep it up Newbie!


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 25, 2006)

Hmm... the NiteIze module on 4D might not outlast a "normal" SMJLED on 2D....

VERY IMPRESSIVE!!!!


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## Lit Up (Aug 26, 2006)

Original PR-SMJLED summary:
It's bright enough for intended purposes, regardless of it's "bluish" tint. I can shine a neighbor's house across the other street with a neighbor between us with my 2D Coleman host. And it gets stupifying runtimes. And I hope the multi-cell versions utilize the same components as the original.

In short, don't try fixing what isn't broken to begin with.

If I need a whiter tint and shorter runtime, I have a 4d MagLED that fits that role already.


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## NewBie (Aug 26, 2006)

Okay, folks are wondering what the various parts are that are in the ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS that is sold at The Shoppe.

I took the module and scrubbed all the flux and junk off it with acetone to make the parts more clear in the photograph.

I've pointed out what each part is, and the probable cost. However, these parts would be alot lower in cost over seas. For example, a 0.1 uF capacitor may cost 0.01 ea here in the USA. However, in Taiwan, where there is still a price markup over the cost in China, one would likely pay 0.0037 ea for these.

Also, this is not a current regulated switcher IC design, it is a simple single NPN transistor oscillator rigged up as a boost supply.








The other half of the product, digging deeper into how it is made:






Chevrofreak, with his eagle eye, has pointed out this product looks remarkably like the Sino Union NIGHT PEARL LED BULB (NPLB) device out of Hong Kong. The internal circuitry is remarkably similar, it uses the same transistor, a smaller schottky diode, one resistor value is slightly different, and the layout has been slightly modified.






An old picture of their first device from way back:




http://www.sinounion.com.hk/index1.htm


***Please be aware that I've witheld alot of additional information on this review on purpose, as I did not want to cast things into too much of a negative light. That was also the purpose of my colorful presentation, to detract from the performance aspect, until the seller had an opportunity to address things. I have still withheld information, so as a buyer, please beware, and make your choices accordingly.


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## nikon (Aug 26, 2006)

NewBie.....Please don't take this as a personal attack, as it's not intended as such. You're a highly valued mamber and provide information that the rest of us would not otherwise have. 

Last night I read a thread started by McGizmo regarding calling it as we see it. So I'm calling it as I see it here. It's time to stop.

You may feel that you're doing us all a favor by exposing corruption wherever it rears it's ugly head, by being our very own Ralph Nader. It's a noble cause, but I do feel that you've gone way over the top. It almost appears as though you're on a personal vendetta. I opened this thread a few minutes ago and came away from your latest post with an upset stomach. I may not be the only one.

I honestly don't give a hoot what's inside the SMJ PR. It's a damn good product and well worth the money. I would think that we'd all be better served if you were to put your energy and expertise to use in designing an even better product than this one. I'd buy it.


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## Rommul (Aug 26, 2006)

nikon said:


> NewBie.....Please don't take this as a personal attack, as it's not intended as such. You're a highly valued mamber and provide information that the rest of us would not otherwise have.
> 
> Last night I read a thread started by McGizmo regarding calling it as we see it. So I'm calling it as I see it here. It's time to stop.
> 
> ...



Its politeness such as this that makes me love this place so much.

Great post and dead on.


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## karlthev (Aug 26, 2006)

This has gone way too far. Drop it!  



Karl


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## leukos (Aug 26, 2006)

Newbie is a force of logical, critical scientific fact that any advertiser of the next 'latest and greatest product' on CPF should reckon with.


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## eebowler (Aug 26, 2006)

nikon said:


> It almost appears as though you're on a personal vendetta. I opened this thread a few minutes ago and came away from your latest post with an upset stomach. I may not be the only one.
> 
> I honestly don't give a hoot what's inside the SMJ PR. It's a damn good product and well worth the money. I would think that we'd all be better served if you were to put your energy and expertise to use in designing an even better product than this one. I'd buy it.



Hi nikon. You've been here a long time and it isn't easy for me to go against your (and others) words but, if you really don't care about what's inside of the module, then the contents of this thread shouldn't bother you right?

It is MY OPINION that Newbie doesn't have a vendetta against anyone. With respect to his last post:


Newbie said:


> Okay, folks are wondering what the various parts are that are in the ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS that is sold at The Shoppe.


 it's apparent to me that the post was in response to numerous requests from fellow members.

I have ALWAYS been curious about the insides of flashlights and have dismantled many of mine for the sake of curiousity. I always appreciate when someone does the dismantling for me and Newbie has a great deal more knowledge than myself so when he does it, it's done properly. My previous post was not ment as 'thanks for revealing the truth Newbie' it is what it is; 'thanks Newbie for showing us the insides of the module.' I would be just as grateful if he did the same for any other module or light I was interested in.

I understand how hurt feelings can be generaged by this thread (by the last post in particular) especially if one bought the 'bulbs' but, in my opinion a fact is a fact and whatever is inside of the light, if it performs to your (you all) satisfaction, then buy it. If you don't like what you see, don't. For all who've bought the module before this review and was satisfied by its performance, I'm sure the review itself didn't change anything.

Maybe I'm too naive to read in between the lines. :shrug:



nikon said:


> if you were to put your energy and expertise to use in designing an even better product than this one. I'd buy it


 Put me down for one too.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 26, 2006)

I still believe the "old" blueish SMJLED PRs are the best things about lighting that I've gotten in 2006. Sure, my P1 is kewl....

But let a Rita sort of storm come through here again and I have lighting covered in SPADES thanks to the SMJLED!!!!


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## PEU (Aug 26, 2006)

nikon said:


> I honestly don't give a hoot what's inside the SMJ PR. It's a damn good product and well worth the money. I would think that we'd all be better served if you were to put your energy and expertise to use in designing an even better product than this one. I'd buy it.



I don't agree with this.

I like to know whats inside, the same way I want to know the color bin of a led and its brightness and forward voltage.
I also like to know, if we talk about converters, the efficiency, the regulation and all technical aspects that makes a converter shine.

I hope, if in the future, I make a converter of my own, that Newbie finds it interesting enough to do a review like he did on the SMJLED.


IMHO, if you don't have interest in the innards of something and can live happily without knowing, thats fine with me, but let the rest of us that are interested, to read and sometimes learn about how things are done, right or wrong.


Pablo


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## chimo (Aug 26, 2006)

I've got to chime in here as well. I'm very appreciative of the fact Newbie takes the time and effort that he does on many of the threads to which he contributes. Those who are not interested in reading what he has to say can feel free to ignore his posts. I, for one, enjoy reading them.


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## xochi (Aug 27, 2006)

nikon said:


> NewBie.....Please don't take this as a personal attack, as it's not intended as such. You're a highly valued mamber and provide information that the rest of us would not otherwise have.
> 
> Last night I read a thread started by McGizmo regarding calling it as we see it. So I'm calling it as I see it here. It's time to stop.
> 
> ...



I totally disagree with your statements as well. Calling it as I see it, that ranks up there with some of the most cerebrally flatulant posts I've read. 

First, a simple disclaimer isn't going to convince anyone that accusing Jarhead of a personal vendetta isn't a personal attack. You just attacked his motifs and his character. Come on, think. That's not nice. 

Second, Jarhead and the people that care about him value his time as much as you and yours. Jarhead spent alot of time and energy presenting the facts and I am grateful that he did. Jarhead/Newbie _always _has to put up with alot of poop when he "breaks it down" for the rest of us, yet he still does it *and we benefit. *We benefit because when push comes to shove the single goal of a dealer or manufacturer is to make money, the marketplace and the individuals in it determine just how far we will let them go to do it. Jarhead sends the message on behalf of all of us that , *we weren't born yesterday! *Yet, because his post might make us a little uncomfortable and might hurt some folks feelings, you would rather us all hide our heads in the sand and not face the reality that CPF is a huge temptation for many to exploit. 

Third, what about all the good and upfront dealers and manufacturers? Is it fair for all those hard working folks to invest time and energy in good products and good services yet be forced to compete for the same dollars with those who utilize hype and BS to sell their products? Duh, No it isn't. I don't want my money going to some pr*ck laughing his way to the bank because he BS'd me into donating a 40000% profit margin. That ain't cool. 

Fourth, Jarhead deserves the satisfaction that comes from his illuminating dissections. You may resent it because you only see it as joy at someones downfall but that is a totally unfair way of looking at it. As I mentioned above , Newbie should enjoy knowing that he's helped the manufacturers , the buyers, the sellers and basically all of CPF by pointing out the bad apple before rotten apples become the standard and only lightly decayed fruit establishes itself as Premium Grade. 

Fifth, not only is it not easy, technically, to do what Jar does, but If I had that kind of knowledge and saw crap being slung, I'd be damned intimidated to speak up . Go look at how much crap he takes. It is far from easy to put up with every yingaling that wants to protest even the slightest bit of negativity. At one point a few years ago , the internet was damn near a volcano of flame wars and since that time the pendalum has swung to the point that internet indoctrination adds the 11th commandment of "Thou shalt not disagree whilst online lest the Angels of Play Nice smite thee". Jarhead is way up there on the Angels of Play Nice' poop list and I am very thankful. 

Nikon, I've read alot of good stuff from you but if Newb deserves anything it's a big thanks.


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## vortechs (Aug 27, 2006)

This thread is quickly degenerating from its original intent to review the SMJLED2 PR bulb. Could we please keep it on the topic of the observable/testable qualities of the bulb and avoid the subjects of the personalities, motives, and/or business models involved? I'm sure there are more approriate places to discuss those other topics. Thanks.


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## AdamW (Aug 27, 2006)

leukos said:


> Newbie is a force of logical, critical scientific fact that any advertiser of the next 'latest and greatest product' on CPF should reckon with.



Yeah, what he said.

Newbie takes the time to dissect flashlight products and photograph the innards. WE ALL BENEFIT. His pictures are ahem, enlightening, and there are not a lot of folks with the gear and the willingness to create fine images such as his.

A good product that lives up to its advertising will survive this kind of analysis. The product will succeed or fail on its own inherent merits or problems. Newbie is just lighting the way...

Keep up the valuable work, and rip into any product you please.


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## Rommul (Aug 27, 2006)

xochi said:


> Third, what about all the good and upfront dealers and manufacturers? Is it fair for all those hard working folks to invest time and energy in good products and good services yet be forced to compete for the same dollars with those who utilize hype and BS to sell their products? Duh, No it isn't. I don't want my money going to some pr*ck laughing his way to the bank because he BS'd me into donating a 40000% profit margin. That ain't cool.



Are we now at the point where we think Arcmania, the Shoppe etc are a bunch of flim flam men?

If that is what people are saying and are praising this posters actions they should just come out and say it instead of dancing around the issue. If people don't want to be seen as finger pointers they shouldn't come near the issue. And if people come near the issue they really should just go all the way and finish it.

It is so easy to tear down people who actually build things while sitting on the sidelines and accomplishing nothing.

This really is a stomach turning thread.


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## Rommul (Aug 27, 2006)

vortechs said:


> This thread is quickly degenerating from its original intent to review the SMJLED2 PR bulb. Could we please keep it on the topic of the observable/testable qualities of the bulb and avoid the subjects of the personalities, motives, and/or business models involved? I'm sure there are more approriate places to discuss those other topics. Thanks.



With that thought in mind has there been any confirmation that Arcmania built these units?


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## AdamW (Aug 27, 2006)

Rommul said:


> With that thought in mind has there been any confirmation that Arcmania built these units?



These units were said to contain Cree X-Lamp dies. They do not. This was shown in this thread. I am glad that the claim was checked.

No one is dancing around anything; the Sandwich Shoppe and ArcMania offer great products and services. I will do business with them in the future.

Any and all products offered for sale are open to review and construction analysis. Opinions are likely to be posted as well. This is not a bad thing!

***Begin on topic***
I am interested in more comparisons between the old SMJLED and the new version. Post them if ya got 'em.
***End on topic***


----------



## fieldops (Aug 27, 2006)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> I still believe the "old" blueish SMJLED PRs are the best things about lighting that I've gotten in 2006. Sure, my P1 is kewl....
> 
> But let a Rita sort of storm come through here again and I have lighting covered in SPADES thanks to the SMJLED!!!!



The last part of your statement is the important part in my testing. Lights for such purposes are a serious matter to me. I think the original SMJLED is a super long term disaster light. The blue doesn't bother me either for this purpose. The point is that you got decent light for a long runtime. Pop one in a cheap Rayovac or Eveready incan host and your good for a while. 

On another serious note, I sure hope you don't need it in the next several days on the Gulf coast My thoughts are with you and all those who are still suffering a year later.


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## karlthev (Aug 27, 2006)

> the Sandwich Shoppe and ArcMania offer great products and services. I will do business with them in the future.



AdamW


I agree fully and I do hope this takes a turn for the positive. I am so depressed that it has been the way it has. I enter the forums for education....and enjoyment. I'm sorry to say there has been no "joy" in this thread for some time. I am in need of a change....I believe many are.... :sigh: 


Karl


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## NewBie (Aug 27, 2006)

As someone alreadly mentioned, please stay on topic.

A number of folks are turning this thread into an emotional and opinion based support fallout pillow for those involved in creating, producing, advertising, and selling the product under review.

If you got facts, like numbers, graphs, pictures, please feel free to post them.
Please keep photos to non-saturated beamshots, often folks saturate beamshots which hide the reality of things. Please, if you are doing comparisons, in beamshots, put the lights in the same photograph, this prevents errors introduced by a variety of means.

If you don't like my reviews, or don't have the stomach, nobody is forcing you to read them. Please turn the channel, or put me on ignore.

Lets keep emotional opinions, favorites, genuflecting, jockeying for favor, out of this thread.

You are free to go discuss this sort of thing in the cpf Underground, where things like this are done.


*Thank you for your consideration*


----------



## Rommul (Aug 27, 2006)

AdamW said:


> These units were said to contain Cree X-Lamp dies. They do not. This was shown in this thread. I am glad that the claim was checked.



You didn't answer my question.

I believe the claim was that the forthcoming mini-mag replacements contained X-Lamps. If there was a claim that the shoppe module contained X-Lamps I will gladly admit I missed it as soon as iot is pointed out to me.

Once again has there been any confirmation that Arcmania built these modules?



AdamW said:


> Any and all products offered for sale are open to review and construction analysis. Opinions are likely to be posted as well. This is not a bad thing!



No one said it was. But I would be more interested in a flashlightreviews.com since I think they are more objective.


----------



## Miciobigio (Aug 27, 2006)

1_ Congrats to Newbie ,i want to see review like this on some other lights  



2_ Use the CPF-Underground to


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## NewBie (Aug 27, 2006)

Rommul said:


> You didn't answer my question.
> 
> I believe the claim was that the forthcoming mini-mag replacements contained X-Lamps. If there was a claim that the shoppe module contained X-Lamps I will gladly admit I missed it as soon as iot is pointed out to me.



No, TrueBlue claimed the SMJLED2 was an XLamp. It is not, and ArcMania corrected him.

This module was said to contain the the new SMJLED, a.k.a. SMJLED2, as well as the new MiniMag module.

Actually, TB said the SMJLED2 LEDs were CREE XLamps. Then ArcMania said no, that the new SMJLED2 specifically contained CREE XLamp 1W die.

His quote is here:


ARC mania said:


> The new SMJLED2 is a custom made 5mm LED utilizing a 1 watt Cree die, same as in a XLamp. Dies can be purchased from many manufacturers including Lumileds.
> 
> ARC mania


https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/127907&page=1&pp=40


The new SMJLED2 contained in the SMJLED2 PR SS modules do not even contain CREE die, let alone a CREE 1W die.

If a person wishes to argue semantics, because they like to argue or whatever, please start your own thread and/or take it to cpf's The Underground. You are also free to take it up with the other person in PM.

*Thank you for your consideration*


----------



## Rommul (Aug 27, 2006)

NewBie said:


> No, TrueBlue claimed the SMJLED2 was an XLamp. It is not, and ArcMania corrected him.
> 
> This module was said to contain the the new SMJLED, a.k.a. SMJLED2, as well as the new MiniMag module.
> 
> ...



Well I believe they were talking about the minimag upgrade module. At nay rate Wayne pretty much admitted he was mislead about the specs in that other thread that was closed.



NewBie said:


> The new SMJLED2 contained in the SMJLED2 PR SS modules do not even contain CREE die, let alone a CREE 1W die.



We already know that from that other thread that got closed.



NewBie said:


> If a person wishes to argue semantics, because they like to argue or whatever, please start your own thread and/or take it to cpf's The Underground. You are also free to take it up with the other person in PM.
> 
> *Thank you for your consideration*



I don't see why you are being defensive. I am just asking questions. Neither one of us has any vested interest in this. I am in the market for products like this having lived through one minor blackout has opened my eyes to products like this (and others)

Any news on whether arcmania built these modules?


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## Bogus1 (Aug 27, 2006)

Rommul said:


> I don't see why you are being defensive. I am just asking questions. Neither one of us has any vested interest in this. I am in the market for products like this having lived through one minor blackout has opened my eyes to products like this (and others)
> 
> Any news on whether arcmania built these modules?



Newbie has nothing invested in this? I'd beg to differ. He obviously spent a lot of time preparing this review for the benefit of CPF. Trashing a review should be no different than trashing a sales thread IMO.

If you are interested in this as a product then perhaps the fact you know it's not an X lamp or regulated as claimed doesn't mean as much to you. For me the greatly shortened run times (over the previous model) without any increase in brightness and the tint were the part of the review that determined whether I would want these. 

Whether Arcmania built these he is welcome to tell us. Why is this on Newbie's plate? However I don't see how this is relevant. This review is about a product and not about a person. I'm interested to see how this thread develops in a technical sense and the real problem here is all the noise that is OT. It makes threads hard to read, literally.


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## cy (Aug 27, 2006)

attack the post not the poster....

all I see is a very_methodical disection of a product. 
why Newbie chose to do this has nothing to do with what's actually discovered. 

if you see something posted that incorrect, then by all means please point it out. 

when I post something incorrect. I take it as a favor, when someone corrects my error.


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## SMLLRisBTTR (Aug 27, 2006)

I've been following this with interest since I like the SMJLED PR's I originally bought from Lambda. Runtime is a big factor for me.

The tech info is great, the other stuff?? Well, I could do without it.

That said, I'm still somewhat confused about the different SMJLED's. If I wanted to purchase some of the "old" style, like the ones I got from Lambda (who sold out), where can I get them now at a good price.

Pardon my ignorance if this is not the right thread to ask this.


----------



## Rommul (Aug 27, 2006)

Bogus1 said:


> Newbie has nothing invested in this? I'd beg to differ. He obviously spent a lot of time preparing this review for the benefit of CPF.



That makes him a reviewer not a person with a vested interest in whether the product fails or succeeds.



Bogus1 said:


> Trashing a review should be no different than trashing a sales thread IMO.



Agreed and that should include the "trashing" (mods words) of Lambda's sales thread that ended up being closed as a result.



Bogus1 said:


> If you are interested in this as a product then perhaps the fact you know it's not an X lamp or regulated as claimed doesn't mean as much to you.



Never said it didn't (no need to put words in my mouth). Those are simply variables that need to be considered.




Bogus1 said:


> Whether Arcmania built these he is welcome to tell us. Why is this on Newbie's plate?



1. I didn't put anything on Newbies plate and I wish you would stop pretending I did. I also asked vortechs and AdamW the same question. Why are you not accusing me of putting it on their plate as well?

2. The thread title insinuates that Arcmania is responsible for the build of these bulbs (if he is not I think that may be relevant). If he is not perhaps the thread title should be amended.

3. I think it is important to understand where components are sourced before making a purchase. Newbie apparently feels the same way

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1565304&postcount=81

Why are you criticising me for wanting to know where components come from?



Bogus1 said:


> However I don't see how this is relevant. This review is about a product and not about a person.



Agreed. Which is why it is vitally important to know who is responsible for this modules construction. If we can't say with certainty who built it perhaps we shouldn't be attributing this product to anyone. 

Furthermore Wayne at the shop suggetsed that this a product he got from an offshore factory that had lower overhead cost as well as the ability to take advantage of economies of scale that he can't. That leads me to believe China or Taiwan (same as Newbie thinks) is the source of this module. I think Arcmania is in Japan.

I believe my questions are legitimate.


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## Rommul (Aug 27, 2006)

SMLLRisBTTR said:


> I've been following this with interest since I like the SMJLED PR's I originally bought from Lambda. Runtime is a big factor for me.
> 
> The tech info is great, the other stuff?? Well, I could do without it.
> 
> ...



Lighthound still has these I believe.


----------



## Kiessling (Aug 27, 2006)

Gentlemen, please stop the off-topic and on-person hick-hack. We do not want this thread to go south.
Thanx.
bernie


----------



## NewBie (Aug 27, 2006)

Okay, pulled out the oscilloscope, and took a look at a few waveforms that were on the module, with an input voltage of 2.503 Volts:


----------



## 3rd_shift (Aug 27, 2006)

This is a pretty darn good review imho.
Thanks for the long, hard work Newbie. :thumbsup:

Sometimes things just go kerplooey without a clear reason at 1st.
Many of us have had that happen in our lifetimes already. 
Maybe the smjled3 will be better.
I look forward to it's arrival if it ever comes to be. 

I also look forward to reading up on other reviews and overviews of other products as well Newbie.


----------



## NewBie (Aug 27, 2006)

Okay, here is some interesting stuff.

I took the module, and coupled it to a Luxeon QYOG emitter (extremely low Vf- 2.818V causes 0.212 Amps of current to flow). I did this to decouple the LED from the circuit performance. The Luxeon QYOG was attached to a large slab of copper to reduce the effects of heat.





















With a really good outstanding LED, this circuit, obviously not regulated, still would make for a decent hurricane emergency light.

Between 1.5 and 2.5 Volts, the circuit shows a somewhat respectable efficiency of 70-80% when using an underdriven, ultra low Vf, LumiLEDs Luxeon QYOG LED.

The LED that was used in the SMJLED2 PR SS, actually didn't turn on until after most LEDs (higher VF than my Nichia BS and CS LEDs). The high Vf does help to reduce the current pull, but as we all know, high Vf LEDs tend to be less efficient.

I might be tempted to take a turn off the inductor/transformer's output winding, to reduce the circuit's output for a longer runtime. It would also be alot easier on the LED.

The circuit continued to produce light ouput down to 0.2957V (rather dim), which is a characteristic of these common "Joule Thief" type circuits.

A typical joule thief circuit can be found here:
http://edusite10.tripod.com/led3/onetran/single_tran.html

A regulated version of the joule thief circuit can be found in this zipped file:
http://www.geocities.com/lemagicien_2000/elecpage/ledtorch/torch.zip

Folks have been fiddling around with them here on cpf for some time, an example is this one from 2001, just search for joule thief or satcure on google:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8638


----------



## vortechs (Aug 27, 2006)

So if I am reading the graphs correctly, the SMJLED2 PR2 SS bulb appears to be optimized for two NiMH cells, since the efficiency degrades significantly above 2.5V input. I assume the reduced circuit efficiency above 2.5V input means that using two 1.5V AA lithium primary cells, or one 3V lithium primary cell, would not be a good choice in a light equipped with a SMJLED2 PR2 SS bulb. 

I would be interested in seeing similar information about the original SMJLED bulb (the one that uses the 4-die 5mm LED). If Newbie is willing to generate similar information for the original SMJLED bulb, I'd be willing to donate a bulb for the cause.


----------



## vortechs (Aug 27, 2006)

Rommul said:


> I also asked vortechs and AdamW the same question.



Rommul, 

I'm sorry, I wasn't intending to ignore you. I just didn't realize that your question in post #94 was directed at me. I simply assumed it was a general question to all readers. 

I have no special knowledge of the SMJLED2 PR2 bulb or its designers/developers/marketers beyond what I read here on CPF. I think the appropriate person to ask about CPF member Arc Mania's involvement with this project would be Arc Mania himself. If you want to call his attention to this thread, a quick PM or email would be an appropriate way to do that.


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## Lit Up (Aug 27, 2006)

Some actual usage facts:

1. the SMJLED really throws when coupled with a proper host.

2. It has more than enough light for it's purpose.

3. I have dunked flashlights with them and no problems.

4. They have insane runtimes. I got over 20 hours on 2 Carbon Zinc AA's.

5. I have used them in all kinds of weather. Rain, clear night and early morning thick fog.

6. I could lift the LED off and find a dab of dogcrap used as the die and wouldn't care. They work, and they work for a long time.

7. Find me one that does better for the price. I won't hold my breath.


----------



## Rommul (Aug 27, 2006)

vortechs said:


> Rommul,
> 
> I'm sorry, I wasn't intending to ignore you. I just didn't realize that your question in post #94 was directed at me. I simply assumed it was a general question to all readers.
> 
> I have no special knowledge of the SMJLED2 PR2 bulb or its designers/developers/marketers beyond what I read here on CPF. I think the appropriate person to ask about CPF member Arc Mania's involvement with this project would be Arc Mania himself. If you want to call his attention to this thread, a quick PM or email would be an appropriate way to do that.



No apology necessary. 

It was directed at you and the forum in general, the same with AdamW.


----------



## Rommul (Aug 27, 2006)

Lit Up said:


> Some actual usage facts:
> 
> 1. the SMJLED really throws when coupled with a proper host.
> 
> ...



The beautiful thing about this hobby/obsession is that different people can take the same product and find many different applications for it.


----------



## 3rd_shift (Aug 27, 2006)

> Find me one that does better for the price.


I have what appears to be a 10mm in a pr dropin with a regulator good for 2-6 cells.
I lost the package to it, and don't remember the brand off hand. 
I found it at Fry's Electronics 3 weeks ago for $9.99.
It has a purplish, greenish tint.
It appears to be quite similar to the leds mentioned here in this thread.
Definitely not a Luxeon, Cree, or other higher powered unit.

I would have to get my hands on an smjled2 to compare this bigger apple to,
in order to find out more.


----------



## LEDninja (Aug 28, 2006)

SMLLRisBTTR said:


> I've been following this with interest since I like the SMJLED PR's I originally bought from Lambda. Runtime is a big factor for me.
> 
> The tech info is great, the other stuff?? Well, I could do without it.
> 
> ...



Take a look at all my attempt to catalog all the different types of MJLED/SMJLED:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=128865

Sandwich Shoppe carries most of the variants:
http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.com/index.php?cPath=48_52_82




3rd_shift said:


> I have what appears to be a 10mm in a pr dropin with a regulator good for 2-6 cells.
> I lost the package to it, and don't remember the brand off hand.
> I found it at Fry's Electronics 3 weeks ago for $9.99.
> It has a purplish, greenish tint.
> ...


You have the NiteIze PR bulb
http://www.niteize.com/productdetai...27&PHPSESSID=e7ba71c4bbe77c55501d88f0515f2585
SuperbrightLEDs sells a 1-3 cell version for $5
http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=LIGHTS
The problem is that the 10mm LED bulbs do not focus properly in a torch with a fixed focus reflector.


----------



## SMLLRisBTTR (Aug 28, 2006)

Quote:
[Sandwich Shoppe carries most of the variants:
http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.c...?cPath=48_52_82]

Unfortunately, the PR version at Sandwich Shoppe is the new SMJLED2. So I guess, for now, Lighthound is the only one that carries the old 4-die version.

I think I saw that Trueblue was supposed to get more in Sept? Were those the 4-die version also?


----------



## 3rd_shift (Aug 28, 2006)

> You have the NiteIze PR bulb



That's the one!
It's true that it does not do well in a nonfocussing flashlight. 
Works good in my 4D Maglite though. 

Anyways, hopefully smjled3 will be better.


----------



## nikon (Aug 28, 2006)

3rd_shift said:


> That's the one!
> It's true that it does not do well in a nonfocussing flashlight.
> Works good in my 4D Maglite though.
> 
> Anyways, hopefully smjled3 will be better.


Here's a link to a thread discussing the Nite_ze C/D drop in.....http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=114270&highlight=nite+ize_


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## NewBie (Sep 4, 2006)

I have purchased additional SMJLED2 PR SS bulbs, and I am seeing very little difference, if any at all, from the first one.

I went down and purchased a low cost host, which in this case was a Garrity AA Glo light. Several folks said this would be the type of flashlight they'd use this blub in.

During the Super Heavy Duty cell run, my light meter software had an error at ~140 and 7 hours, so everything after that was deleted.

The Alkaline cells were Energizer Max, just purchased, with date code 2010.

There are multiple lines for each cell, since Excel 97 does not like to plot 134,000 datapoints at once. (Yes, samples were taken, once each second) It still hollers at me, but it works (it doesn't like over 32,000 datapoints on a graph).

I have runtimes on NiMH and Lithium to go yet.








I believe it was Quickbeam that started the runtime definition, as time to 50% output. Using this definition:

Super Heavy Duty cells: 2.9 hours
Alkaline cells: 10.5 hours


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## fieldops (Sep 4, 2006)

This pretty much confirms my visual runtime tests. I like to have both types of tests for runtime. The metered version gives us a quantitative analysis. The visual represents how we use lights in everyday life. Thanks for doing this, Newbie. All of this has taught me one thing: The original SMJLED is quite a nice performer. It does far better than the new unit tested here. I started putting the original SMJED in several cheap hosts as emergency lights. You can't go wrong!


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## NewBie (Sep 4, 2006)

fieldops said:


> This pretty much confirms my visual runtime tests. I like to have both types of tests for runtime. The metered version gives us a quantitative analysis. The visual represents how we use lights in everyday life. Thanks for doing this, Newbie.




You are quite welcome.

I am glad the review has been of use to you.

Yes, it pretty much jives with what you reported.


The other tests are in process as we speak.


.


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## chevrofreak (Sep 4, 2006)

I did a runtime with the original SMJLED PR using some alkalines, but there was a loose connection in the light causing output to have some spikes. I ran it again with the connections all cleaned and tightened using some FujiNovel batteries, and when it was following the same curve I decided to abort the test since it was going to take a couple days to complete.







2500 minutes is 41-2/3 hours


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## NewBie (Sep 5, 2006)

Thank you for the graph of the old SMJLED chevrofreak.

They are very different.


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## NoFair (Sep 5, 2006)

Thanks NewBie and Chevrofreak!

I'm really happy I got the old one. 

I know some people don't like it, but it is these kind of reviews that make this place valueable. 

Thanks


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## vortechs (Sep 5, 2006)

To be fair to the SS SMJLED PR2 bulb, the runtime curve for it should also be done with NiMH cells. Since from the previous graphs it appeared that the converter in the SS PR2 bulb is optimized for approximately the voltage of 2 NiMH cells (around 2.4 volts). 

I must admit to being curious about the differences between the original SMJLED PR bulb and the SS version. Is the difference in runtime due to the different LED's, different converter efficiencies, or perhaps the input voltage the converter is optimized for?


----------



## NewBie (Sep 5, 2006)

As I mentioned, the other tests are in process.

Those include NiMH as well as Lithium.


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## Christoph (Sep 5, 2006)

Looking for this


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## NewBie (Sep 6, 2006)

Christoph said:


> Looking for this




Hi Christoph.

I'm sorry this is taking so long.

The reason why it is taking so long, is that I found a problem with the SMJLED2 PR SS.

I had a file glitch on the first Lithium cell run, then the second time, the light meter cells went dead, so I am on my third run now.

But these issues allowed me to stumble on something else. Each time I found there was a loss of light output. It works out to be a 45% loss (for the initial peak during the run) by only the third set of Energizer e^2 Lithium AA cells.

The brown trace in interrupted due to the file glitch.

The medium blue trace is where the batteries went dead.

The green trace is the third lithium AA run.







I have a third ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS which I purchased that I will be doing a life runtime on, off a regulated power supply, to see if it is the Lithium cells that are killing it, or if it is just due to the drive to the LED.


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## Christoph (Sep 6, 2006)

Thanks:rock:I appreciate what you are doing for us Newbie  keep up the investigations.
Chris


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## NewBie (Sep 6, 2006)

Christoph said:


> Thanks:rock:I appreciate what you are doing for us Newbie  keep up the investigations.
> Chris




Okay, the runtime is updated, showing the complete runtime of the ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS, on the Lithium cells (finished green plot). Keep in mind the Lithium cells rapidly cause the device's light output to degrade.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 6, 2006)

I'm still rather happy that I have all "old" SMJLEDs. Because we are in hurricane alley. And days beats hours!!!


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## vortechs (Sep 6, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Okay, the runtime is updated, showing the complete runtime of the ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS, on the Lithium cells (finished green plot). Keep in mind the Lithium cells rapidly cause the device's light output to degrade.



Based on these test results, hopefully the manufacturer/dealers will include some instructions with the SMJLED2 PR SS bulb that it should NOT be used with two AA-size 1.5V Lithium primary cells. 

That means using a single Li-Ion cell with this bulb is definitely out of the question. 

From all the data we are seeing here so far, it appears that this bulb is best suited for use with 2 NiMH cells. That is good information to know. 

Thanks NewBie.


----------



## NewBie (Sep 7, 2006)

I took my third ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS, and connected it to a regulated 2.8V power supply. At the bulb, I added an 1,800 uF capacitor, so wire lengths would not affect things.

I chose 2.8V, as it is close to what a very lightly loaded NiMH does, and they discharge relatively flat, and is less than what lightly loaded Alkaline D cells would be.

It appears as though some of the light drop over time, that I'd originally considered might be due to the battey voltage dropping, is accentuated by the rapid lumen loss of the 5mm LED over time.

Here is what I have for now, tests are on going.


----------



## chimo (Sep 7, 2006)

Great job, Newbie. 

Wow, that's a very quick drop! For a drop that rapid, it would seem like these LEDs are being seriously over-driven. Could the wrong LEDs have been installed in these?

Paul


----------



## vortechs (Sep 7, 2006)

Thanks NewBie, 

These results are very concerning. If the LED in the bulb looses brightness that quickly even with only a 2.8V input, there would appear to be a flaw in the design. It sounds like the 5mm LED cannot take the current that the converter in the PR bulb base is giving it. Perhaps the original SMJLED PR bulb did not have this problem because the 4-die LED in that design could handle more current without degrading. 

Do you have a good way to measure the voltage & current going to the LED? 

Just to be sure that there isn't some other factor involved, I would suggest that you should eventually turn off the power, let the bulb 'rest' for a while then turn the power back on and see if the bulb brightness returns to the initial line or starts where it left off. If the cause of the reduction is permanant rather than temporary, a 'rest' period would not affect the brightness. I am just trying to make sure all possiblities are covered.


----------



## NewBie (Sep 8, 2006)

Vortechs, there was a rest, where the brightness didn't return, refer to the three runs on Lithiums, and the graphs.

As far as current and the voltage to the bulb, estimate from here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1566798&postcount=111

The older four die design would at least spread the power between the four dies, or there would be 1/4th the power in each die, which would also spread it over a larger area, instead of having all of the power in a single point heatsource (single die).


It may also be, that since there were four dies, that the efficiency was higher. Due to lower current density in the dies, you would also increase the die efficiency and thus produce less heat in the first place, but this is would be speculation and not based on any sort of measurements or anything.


In reality, these may have been designed to operate just like they are, so I'm not sure if you could call it a design flaw. Without full specifications for the design lifetime and to what degradation point, as well as bulb case temps specified, it is pretty hard to figure whatever out.


----------



## NewBie (Sep 8, 2006)

Lifetime Graph has been updated with latest collected data.


----------



## chimo (Sep 9, 2006)

Wow, Newbie, that lumen maintenance curve is not a pretty site. The only conclusion that I can draw is that the LED used in the SMJLED2 PR2 is not even close to being able to handle the current it's being fed. At that rate of drop, it would not surprise me if the actual LED was only rated for 20mA. Thanks.

Paul


----------



## vortechs (Sep 9, 2006)

I agree, that lumen maintenance curve is not a pretty sight. It is rather dramatic. It would be nice to know exactly what is killing the LED. I assume it is current and heat. 

According to the graph in post #111, the current output of the PR base driver is 0.16 Amps (160mA) at 2.8V input. That is probably a bit much for any 5mm LED to handle without some lumen loss. In fact, the driver's output current hits 100mA at a 2.1V input. I thought 100mA was about the limit for the premium 5mm LED's. (These numbers may be off a bit since I don't know if the input voltage vs. output current graph in post #111 is completely applicable to the real LED, in case its Vf affects the results). 

I assume that if someone used a power source that limited the current to 20mA, the LED bulb would be a lot less bright but would not exhibit the lumen loss that we are seeing with a constant voltage input of 2.8V. According to the graph in post #111, the output is about 20mA at 1.25V input and about 30mA at 1.5V input, so I would expect that using a single NiMH or Alkaline cell would not kill the LED. 

At higher voltage (and current) levels, I wonder how much heating has to do with the lumen loss. If the bulb were in a metal socket and being cooled by a fan, rather than isolated inside a plastic host, would that reduce the rate of lumen loss (even though 5mm LED's in general have poor thermal characteristics). 

So many questions come to mind, but it appears that the SMJLED2 PR2 SS bulb may have a very limited lifetime when used in a typical 2 cell flashlight application. Now I am wondering about the lifetime of the original SMJLED PR bulb (with the 4-die LED).


----------



## NewBie (Sep 9, 2006)

If you take a look, carefully, at the time from 20.5 hours to 21.5 hours, you will see a kink in the curve. I was expecting someone to ask about it. I put a fan on it there, and you will notice that the slope of the curve changed... 

The body of the flashlight was not warm at all, to touch, so if one were to hold it, it might degrade quicker than what is shown on the chart, as you'd be warming the light. That, and batteries also produce extra heat as you use them.

I was a tiny bit surprised to see a fan had an effect on the curve, as the Garrity flashlight has a plastic body. Not totally surprised or anything, as plastic still serves as somewhat of a thermal transfer medium.

From what I saw with the fan, I'd be willing to bet that if you made a special hotlips to hold one of these, and put the hotlips into a D Maglite, you'd see a slower degradation rate.


----------



## vortechs (Sep 9, 2006)

NewBie said:


> If you take a look, carefully, at the time from 20.5 hours to 21.5 hours, you will see a kink in the curve. I was expecting someone to ask about it. I put a fan on it there, and you will notice that the slope of the curve changed...



Yes, I was curious about that kink in the curve. Thanks for explaining it. 

Another thing I was curious about was that in the first runtime curves, the bulb didn't seem to degrade much between the first test with the Garrity Super Heavy Duty cells and second test with the Alkaline cells. Perhaps the 7 hours of runtime on the Heavy Duty cells didn't degrade the LED enough to be noticable. It also didn't seem to degrade between the Alkaline cell test and first Lithium cell test, since both tests start at about the same brightness. However, perhaps the LED had degraded during the Alkaline cell test and the higher initial voltage of the Lithium cells hides the difference.


----------



## chimo (Sep 9, 2006)

Oddly enough, it looks like the slope gets steeper after the fan was placed. I would have though it would have gotten more shallow.  :thinking:


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## vortechs (Sep 9, 2006)

It looks like the blue curve shallows out at 20.5 hours. This also happens to be where the horizontal green line marked "70% output" intersects the blue curve, so it can be a bit hard to spot that the blue curve does get shallower there. The blue curve gets steeper again at about 23.5 hours. I assume that is where the fan was removed or some other event occurred. I think we would need an expanded graph to see the details of what is occurring there.


----------



## NewBie (Sep 10, 2006)

Okay, here is the updated graph:


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## Christoph (Sep 11, 2006)

So much for longevity .Is there any way of making it last longer? Run on one cell?

Chris


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## NewBie (Sep 11, 2006)

Running it off of one cell would make it last much, much longer. Heatsinking the part with a hotlips in a metal body flashlight would also help some.


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## vortechs (Sep 11, 2006)

This was good information. We really should do a lifetime test like this on the original SMJLED bulb.


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## chimo (Sep 11, 2006)

That's a pretty drastic drop in output. 

This type of drop could be achieved after only a few battery changes. 

I am curious if these results are being investigated by the device creator and if there is an explaination (such as: the wrong LED was installed by the manufacturing plant).

Are these still being sold?


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## Christoph (Sep 11, 2006)

What happened to the 70% 50% and 25% lines!


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## NewBie (Sep 12, 2006)

Christoph said:


> What happened to the 70% 50% and 25% lines!




Oops, fixed in last update.

Enjoy!


----------



## NewBie (Sep 12, 2006)

Chris, 

Added a 10% line for you.


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## NewBie (Sep 13, 2006)

Okay, we are below the 10% output for lifetime test now (*THIS IS NOT A RUNTIME TEST!*). I was *very* surprised that the ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS degrades so rapidly, and had expected to start flattening out much sooner, and dwindle off much slower:







As I mentioned earlier, a host with better heatsinking looks like it would help a lot, and something like a 2D Maglite with a modified HotLips would help a lot.


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## chimo (Sep 14, 2006)

Well done on the thorough review! 

Wow, that is quite the nose dive. I take it this will not get your recommendation.  

Paul


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## nerdgineer (Sep 14, 2006)

Newbie, I'd heard that the original SMJLED PR bulb had a 50% lumen maintenance point in the hundreds of hours range when running off alkies. Do you have any information on the original SMJLED PR bulbs in that regard?


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 14, 2006)

I'm more glad than I EVER was that I have old SMJLEDs!!!!


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## Hondo (Sep 14, 2006)

I am curious what the input current was in this last test. From post #111, it looks like the LED is seeing around 200 ma at 2.8 volts in. Since this is a boost circuit, at the lower input voltage, the current should be even higher. I can only measure input current at the batteries on my lights, and I use NiMH's or not-too-fresh alkalines, and my lights range from 80 to only 120 ma on a ten amp scale. I was worried about just this phenomenon, and it had been my guess that I was keeping the LED significantly below the 100 ma rate at which the older MJLED's were known to degrade fairly rapidly. Thanks again!


Hondo


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## idleprocess (Sep 14, 2006)

Any speculation or real information about what exactly is degrading? Phosphor/die being killed by the heat? Trace UV from the die turning the package opaque? Driver components going bad?

I imagine you'd have to shut down the rig to determine this, so I guess it's just speculation.

It would be interesting to know how many hours it would take to degrade under a more realistic duty cycle of 25 or 10%, but I understand that this sort of (ultimately) destructive testing is expensive and time-consuming.


----------



## NewBie (Sep 14, 2006)

Hondo said:


> I am curious what the input current was in this last test. From post #111, it looks like the LED is seeing around 200 ma at 2.8 volts in. Since this is a boost circuit, at the lower input voltage, the current should be even higher. I can only measure input current at the batteries on my lights, and I use NiMH's or not-too-fresh alkalines, and my lights range from 80 to only 120 ma on a ten amp scale. I was worried about just this phenomenon, and it had been my guess that I was keeping the LED significantly below the 100 ma rate at which the older MJLED's were known to degrade fairly rapidly. Thanks again!
> 
> 
> Hondo




Keep in mind, these are completely un-regulated. As the voltage drops, the current drops, and the output drops.

Yes, this is completely non-regulated. So, as the input voltage drops, the input current does not increase, as it would do, in a regulated design.

You can make things look artificially regulated, if you use something like a Lithium cell (or even a NiMH), which have pretty flat discharge curves at these currents.

Regulation by definition means you are holding something in the output constant.

With regulation, something is held constant, like constant voltage or constant power, or constant current. Regulation results in a flat line with a drop off. There may be a very slight general curve to the line, depending on heatsinking and such, especially with non-current regulated designs.

There are a number of lights that claim to be regulated, but different cells result in different curves, different output levels with different cells, and other wierd things. Most of these are not even regulated, but just have a boost circuit to boost the voltage up. This product is a good example, as well as the Mini-Pro, which was ran wide open. Some folks have started using the term voltage multiplier for circuits like these. Some circuits do not even hold a constant multiplier.

Idleprocess, I took apart one of the ones that was degrading, and there is nothing wrong with the electronics, it is the LED dying from being blasted with too much current and voltage, which it cannot handle.

If the duty cycle was like an hour on, and four hours off, I would not expect that much of a slower degradation, there would be a very slight improvement- maybe a minute or two slower per hour of runtime.

I would expect one of the best things to do would be to buy one of those big solid aluminum hotlips (think they were like 30.00 dollars or so), modify it to accept the PR, and put it in a metal body light, like the 2D Maglite. The improvement would probably be significant at that point, but nothing spectacular.


Nerdengineer-
I have zero data on the earlier devices, nor the conditions the original device was specified at- which would influence the lifetimes that were specified.

Maybe somebody here on cpf tested them, and has the graphs of the test data, I actually don't follow the ArcMania/Michael Jordan stuff that close. Has anyone see it?

On this note, I will have to refer to the designer's expertise, ArcMania's a member here, so it would be best to defer these questions to the designer, who would be able to answer all of your questions and provide the test data for you.

Chimo-
As far as recommendations, I do not know how much each member values their investments. For some, money is hard to come by, and for others, it is easy to come by. As such, it makes it a difficult call. There are a number of new PR based devices on the market, but I do not have any of them for evaluation purposes. 

I do know, for myself, I've made a very simple modification to the MagLED, to create a long runtime device, which lowers the drive current to the LED. This also serves to increase the efficiency of the LED a lot, and puts out an amazing amount of light, for the little amount of power it draws. In this device, the thermal resistance from the LED die, to the PR body is much lower, and as such, it would create an underdriven Luxeon, which would extend it's lifetime towards the 50,000 hour mark to only 30% loss in output (70% line on the graph above). Sorry, I'm not going to do a 5.7 year runtime test, you will need to rely upon the data provided by LumiLEDs.


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## Hondo (Sep 16, 2006)

Thanks NewBie, the non-regulated behaviour is exactly what I observe. In fact, when the input voltage drops, input current also DROPS. NiMH's do give a fair psudo-regulation, at a lower brightness than lithiums, or fresh alkalines. What I was looking to do is take advantage of this situation by underdriving it a bit to a brightness still usefull to me. Since I am inputting less than 120 ma, and I am guessing that the input current at 2.8 volts in the test was much higher, I was hoping that I could expect a much better lifespan at lower brightness. While I would give up the near-Luxeon brightness, it is still good for 90% of what I reach for a light for, and I can grab a Luxeon light for the rest. Did you happen to record the current being delivered from the 2.8v source?


Hondo


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## NewBie (Sep 17, 2006)

Okay, well it is time to put this one to rest.

The LED's light output has dropped by 20 times it's peak value in the begining.

Thus it has reached only 5% of its original light output level.

The final chart is below, as well as the actual data source file, if you'd like to download it and play with it a bit yourself.








Source data for download:
http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/smjled2.xls


Here you can see how the phosphor is now really dark over the die:






Contrast that to this:






I took a Royal Blue LED, to excite the phosphor, and notice how the phosphor is no longer excited by the blue light over the die area:






Here is the die lit up, notice how there is very little yellow being produced above and near the die, and it is darkish over the die:






Oh, and before I forget:
- The current draw by the bulb was 0.2A @ 2.8V, the same as it was at the beginning of the test.

And finally, we have the comparision beamshots against some low output flashlights I dug up, after ArcMania's SMJLED2 PR SS has had ~245 hours on it (fyi, it doesn't really show up in photos against the beamshots of the earlier lights now):


----------



## idleprocess (Sep 17, 2006)

That phosphor-excitation shot says quite a bit...


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## NewBie (Sep 17, 2006)

Yes it does idleprocess.

I added the direct shot of the excited LED, and also some beamshots, but I had to go dig around for some really low output lights, it wouldn't show up against the lights I used before, anymore.


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## NewBie (Sep 17, 2006)

Well, I was asked to do a comparision against the Fenix P1, so it could be used as a reference from the early beamshots. I had to tweak the brightness adjustment in the photo program to make it show up. Yes, the P1 has an oversaturated beamshot now:


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## chevrofreak (Sep 17, 2006)

Holy crap, only 10 days of life :thumbsdow


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## vortechs (Sep 17, 2006)

What if the PR bulb was re-designed to make the LED easily replaceable? If there were tiny sockets to hold the 5mm LED in the PR base (like the PR-base bulb adapter for the TerraLUX MiniStar2), it would be possible for the user to change the LED if it started to loose brightness over time, or if better LED's are introduced. The 4-die 5mm LED's seemed to work better in the PR bulbs, probably because they could better tolerate the high drive current. 

What is the current that the LED is seeing from the driver in the bulb? From reading the posts in this thread it sounds like the bulb draws about 200mA at 2.8V from the power supply, but delivers less than that to the bulb due to the voltage increase and the losses in the converter.


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## Hondo (Sep 17, 2006)

I kind of like the idea of a "bi-pin" plug-in. I think it was mentioned elsewhere about the reliability of such a thing, and being able to be knocked loose in a fall. Given the hosts these are used in, I would not be using these in a life-threatening situation, and this would be as reliable as a MiniMag SMJ mod.

The current at the LED I believe can be determined from Newbie's fourth graph in post #111. It appears to be just over 0.16 amps at 2.8 volts input. This portion of the graph is puzzling, as it appears the LED would be driven harder at 2.6 volts than 2.8 volts. Efficiency is clearly dropping above 2.5 volts, but the dropping output current seems like an extreme result. What I had trouble finding was the input current at the power source - 200 ma, thanks Newbie!




chevrofreak said:


> Holy crap, only 10 days of life


 
Well, yes, when driving with 200 ma input current. It is only drawing about 100 ma from my AA NiMH's. I would be curious what this test looked like at that level of input. The "hottest" host I have one of these in is a 2-D Ray-O-Vac with alkalines resting at about 1.48 volts, and that measures 120 ma on the 10 amp scale. Fresh D's I recall giving in the high 100's, and I just tried a pair of E2 AA lithiums and got 200 ma. BTW, it was the brightest I have seen that unit, but no where NEAR enough brighter than one pulling 100 ma on fresh NiMH's to justify double the current, at a higher voltage, so well over double the power, and the resulting carnage to the LED. I think this all supports Newbie's findings on the huge drop in efficiency at high drive voltage/current. And at least for me, why I will use these with particularly tame batteries, and grab something other than a single 5 mm light when I need more light for a job.

For what some folks are looking for in these, I think I would like to see a circuit like Newbie's "tuned down" Mag LED drop-in, underdriving a 3W Luxeon, in a PR base that fits all of the hosts. At that level, the heat would not be an issue for the plastic lights, runtime would still be good, and the LED would last a loooong time.

Hondo


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## vortechs (Sep 17, 2006)

Hondo said:


> The current at the LED I believe can be determined from Newbie's fourth graph in post #111. It appears to be just over 0.16 amps at 2.8 volts input. This portion of the graph is puzzling, as it appears the LED would be driven harder at 2.6 volts than 2.8 volts. Efficiency is clearly dropping above 2.5 volts, but the dropping output current seems like an extreme result. What I had trouble finding was the input current at the power source - 200 ma, thanks Newbie!



I did think about post #111. However, the graphs in post #111 use a different LED than the SS SMJLED bulb uses, to separate the performance of the driver from the performance of the LED. I was not sure if the data in post #111 regarding the output current would be what the LED in the SS bulb would receive, since it has a higher Vf than the one used for those tests. I thought the data in post #111 was primarily just to show the efficiency of the driver circuit in the PR base. 

If the efficiency of the driver circuit at 2.8V is less than 50% and the input current to the SS PR bulb is 200mA, and the Vf of the LED in the bulb is greater than 2.8V, it seems the current the LED would receive would be less than 100mA (rather than 160mA).


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 17, 2006)

Glad!!! that I got my seven "old" 4 die SMJLED PRs when I did!

If I wern't so fumble fingered I would turn down a M*gled or two!


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## NewBie (Sep 18, 2006)

Okay, I decided to cross-section the LED, to see what happened. I was able to just take off the side of the internal reflector, and leave 99% of the leads intact, so it still operates fine:


Notice how the epoxy material over the die area burned black:
























Here I underdrove the LED die, because it thrashed the photo by overloading the camera:











































.


In this last photo, notice how the light is brighter at the edges and darker over the center of the die (where it is rather black now):








.


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## shiftd (Sep 18, 2006)

Ewwww, that looks nasty
Thanks for the nice pictures 


Looks like many tiny boogers 



So, how did you cut it that small and precise?

Can we see comparison photo with a good led die?


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## Haz (Sep 19, 2006)

great pics you have there, looks like something from National Geographics!, thanks for your efforts NewBie in this detailed review.


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## chimo (Sep 19, 2006)

Wow! Outstanding photos! Great job on the cut-away while maintaining function of the LED. Those energized photos are very telling as well wrt phosphor degradation. 

What did you use to file down the LED?

Paul


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## NewBie (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks fellas.

Paul-
Elbow grease.


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## NewBie (Sep 21, 2006)

And sandpaper.


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## chimo (Sep 21, 2006)

I have to re-iterate how well that was done. I tried a quick and dirty sand-down and my results were not nearly as good. Although the sanding grooves look "large" in the photos, they are not! Great job on the macro photos as well. What did you use for the extreme magnification?

Paul


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## NewBie (Sep 21, 2006)

I used a microscope.


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## ViReN (Oct 2, 2006)

One More reason NOT to overdrive LED's ...

they ALL do it (except Fenix E0 and Peak LED Standard power lights)

Be it HDS Systems or Arc.... Dorcy or Streamlight... everyone... 


Thanks to Fenix E0 & Peak LED Solutions for NOT overdriving LED's


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## Hans (Oct 2, 2006)

ViReN said:


> One More reason NOT to overdrive LED's ...
> 
> they ALL do it (except Fenix E0 and Peak LED Standard power lights)
> 
> Be it HDS Systems or Arc.... Dorcy or Streamlight... everyone...



Any quotes on HDS overdriving their LEDs?

Hans


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## Kryosphinx (Oct 2, 2006)

For luxeon LEDs with adequate heatsinking, it's not such a big deal. They're built with direct thermal relief, aka the metal slug, but small 5mm LEDs have little to no heatsinking. Any overdrive is certain death.


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## NewBie (Oct 3, 2006)

One of our cpf'ers asked me to cross-section one of the ArcMania SMJLED2 PR SS LEDs that hasn't burned itself up. 

For comparison, refer back to post 172. Here is one of them:







Here are the photos of still good ones, under a wide variety of lighting and self lighting conditions.


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## cy (Oct 3, 2006)

those are killer macro photo's! 

what camera are you using?


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## ViReN (Oct 3, 2006)

i think NewBie said it's a microscope +Camera .. its what i read some where on these threads...


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## NewBie (Oct 3, 2006)

Yes, it is an old beater camera that is nearly worn out, has been in for service three times, and an really old microscope. You just shoot thru the occular.


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## chimo (Oct 3, 2006)

Great comparison shots!


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## NewBie (Oct 3, 2006)

Thanks Chimo.

Cy,

And you hold *really* still.


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## NewBie (Oct 14, 2006)

I got to looking at some of the comparisons between the LED that burned up from use, and the one that didn't, and found a lot of interesting comparisions. An example:


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## vortechs (Oct 14, 2006)

I had been avoiding this thread for a while, to see what developed. 

There are a lot of interesting pictures that show the details of exactly how a 5mm LED loses brightness when overdriven, due to the phosphor degrading. I am suitably impressed with the information and pictures, although most users wouldn't care why an LED was getting dimmer over time, just that it was. 

It appears that the bottom line is that the 5mm LED in the SMJLED2 PR2 SS bulb is not capable of tolerating the current it gets from the tiny driver built into the PR base (for long). Has anyone else independently confirmed this result? A simple way would be to buy two SS bulbs and use one in a cheap host for a few sets of batteries and then comparing the brightness of the two bulbs. While I don't doubt Newbie's results, it is always good to have a second test, just to confirm that the test setup didn't somehow affect the results (however unlikely that might be). Can anyone else offer their experiences? 


It seems that we should also at least offer some suggestions about how to improve the design. The obvious one would be to use an LED that is capable of tolerating the drive current and/or modifying the driver to decrease the drive current. I don't know how the 4-die LED in the previous design performs in this regard, but it is possible that 5mm LED's simply are not a good choice for this application at higher current drive levels and an underdriven Luxeon-I or similar LED would be more capable of handling the current/heat. My other suggestion was to use a 5mm LED but make the 5mm LED easily replaceable. Since 5mm LED's are cheap, it would not be difficult to justify changing the LED every couple of battery changes. That isn't really all that much different from incandescent bulb, which need to be replaced fairly frequently. Does anyone else have any suggestions? 


I look forward to eventually seeing the improved design that has been thoroughly tested by an expert like Newbie and has proven to be reliable for at least 200 hours of operation (possibly including LED changes).


----------



## IsaacHayes (Oct 14, 2006)

Wow, very interesting thread! 

So if the led had silicone+phosphur would it not degrade as bad? How do nichia 5mm leds survive overdriving better than other brands?

A nichia CS led cut down would make an interesting replacement, and then see how it degrades!


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## Hondo (Oct 16, 2006)

I too have been following this, but cannot offer any additional test data. My take, however, on what can be done to get the maximum service from the current product lies in the batteries. Newbie drove the test unit with 200 ma of input current from the power supply. I get that when using AA lithiums. But with AA NiMH's or slightly used AA alkalines I get no more than 100 - 120 ma. D-cells deliver more current than AA's. So I try to load mine up with batteries that give me less than 120 ma input current, which in practical use I don't find all that much dimmer than what I get at 200 ma with lithiums. All I can say for sure is that my lights will last longer this way that driven at 200 ma constant. I too would like to see more info on this, but am not too worried about losing my investment in these bulbs the way I am using them.


Hondo


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## TMorita (Oct 17, 2006)

I've been playing around with one of these bulbs.

Basically, it seems to draw:

2.2v = 100 ma
1.5v = ~65 ma
1.0v = ~50 ma
0.6v = single-digit ma (but still barely lights)

This bulb would be great for a single cell flashlight since it emits a decent amount of light at 1.5v and works down to 0.6 volts!

Toshi


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## Sinjz (Oct 25, 2006)

nerdgineer said:


> Newbie, I'd heard that the original SMJLED PR bulb had a 50% lumen maintenance point in the hundreds of hours range when running off alkies. Do you have any information on the original SMJLED PR bulbs in that regard?



My head hurts and my eyes are blurry. :mecry: Sorry if I missed it, but was this question answered? Does this review reflect at all on the SMJLED PR bulbs I got from Lambda?


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## nerdgineer (Oct 25, 2006)

TMorita said:


> 1.5v = ~65 ma...


Can you get any kind of brightness or output measurement at 1.5V or comment on how it compares to, say, an Arc AAA or old style Dorcy AAA? 

It would be easy to cut down a cheap plastic 2AA flashlight to hold 1AA and drive it off a 1.7 V lithium. You might get 40 or 50 hours of run time out of such a set up if the output at 1.5-1.7V were reasonable.


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## greg_in_canada (Oct 25, 2006)

Thanks for the photos NewBie. I was the one asking (though there may have been others).

Greg


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## vortechs (Oct 25, 2006)

Sinjz said:


> My head hurts and my eyes are blurry. :mecry: Sorry if I missed it, but was this question answered? Does this review reflect at all on the SMJLED PR bulbs I got from Lambda?



This review is for the newest PR2 bulb that is marked "SS" on the side. 

It is not a review of the older 4-die SMJLED bulb. It probably does not apply to the ones you got directly from Lambda, since I do not believe he sold any of this version directly (though somebody else may know more than I do about it).


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## Sinjz (Oct 26, 2006)

Thanks for the reply vortechs. Hopefully someone else can confirm that the older 4-die SMJLED bubls aren't being overdriven to death.


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## Tronic (Oct 29, 2006)

I have started a test with the old SMJPR2 LED that is marked "2Cell" on the side.
The LED is connected to a regulated power supply that is set to 2.8V
The current draw of the LED is 0.15A @ 2.8V (remember the SS SMJPR2 have 0.2A @ 2.8V)

Start:.......

 (0EV)..........Camera settings: ISO100 / F4.0 / WB Indoor / exposure 1/125 / MeteringMode Spot
...............................................................I can also post EXIF data if you need it.

After 24h: I cannot see any decrease in output.
..............(I cannot measure lumen or lux, but my digital camera (that is set to fully manual) tell me that the brightness have not change. +/- 0EV)

After 48h: The center of the beam is a little bit less bright (-0.3EV on my digicam). But this is not noticeable by the eye. 

After 72h: No more decrease in output. 
...............

 (-0.3EV)

After 120h: A little more decrease (Note: The current is still 0.15A @ 2.8V)
...............

 (-0.7EV)

After 168h: 
...............

 (-1.0EV)

After 216h: (sorry no picture!) -1.0EV


Test terminated after 360h (15day):


 -2.0EV



15 day used SMJPR2 left / ARC-AAA Premium right



new SMJPR2 left / ARC-AAA Premium right



left:15day used / right: new



left:15day used / right: new

The tint change from a little blue to extreme blue!
The SMJPR2 is much better then the SMJPR2 SS but the LED life is still too bad for me.


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## EngrPaul (Nov 1, 2006)

Just so you guys know, I purposely purchased 2 PR2 bulbs from *Lighthound* because they have the SMJLED/PR2 advertized. What I received is two different shades in the same bag.

When I looked under magnification, I found that one has 4 wires bonded to the semiconductor, the other has two. This leads me to believe they *shipped one SMJLED, and one SMJLED2*. Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I have the feeling they are running out of the preferred 4-die version? 

The picture on their website for the SMJLED definitely has 4 wires bonded to the chip.

http://www.lighthound.com/sales/arcmania_led_upgrades.htm

Any advice?


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## EngrPaul (Nov 1, 2006)

I forgot to mention the color difference of the beams. The 4-die LED is white, the one with less wire bonds is greenish and slightly dimmer. I am using the same model host and same package of fresh batteries. They both say "2cell" on the side.


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## Tronic (Nov 15, 2006)

Post #199 updated with test results from the old SMJPR2.


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## EngrPaul (Nov 15, 2006)

Thanks for the info and pictures Tronic.

That PR2 is certainly fried in a very short period of time. 

So much for long-lasting solid state construction!


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## NewBie (Nov 18, 2006)

Tronic said:


> left:15day used / right: new
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow the old one degrades badly too. Thanks for the effort and your time Tronic!


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## Bearcat (Dec 14, 2006)

Crap!!!! I bought the PR2 led bulbs from Lighthound thinking I was getting the old version like the picture depicted; instead I got the new single die version.

Where can I get the old 4 die version and not be misled again?


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## NewBie (Jan 28, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> Crap!!!! I bought the PR2 led bulbs from Lighthound thinking I was getting the old version like the picture depicted; instead I got the new single die version.
> 
> Where can I get the old 4 die version and not be misled again?



The old 4 die version also has issues, check out the phosphor in his photos and how it turned black, see post 199:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1662916&postcount=199


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## nikon (Jan 29, 2007)

Let's keep in mind that a constant-run test using a power supply set at 2.8v bears virtually no resemblance to the use a light would get in real world terms.

I don't think any one of us is going to leave one of these bulbs running for 15 days straight (if I've left anyone out, please raise your hand). Normally a light is used for a few minutes at a time with occasional use for longer periods. And in the real worls a light is run on batteries, the power of which diminishes over time. I think it's safe to say that in normal use, one of these bulbs would last foir years. You'd probably have given it away or lost it long before you saw any decrease in brightness. The SMJ is a bargain for what it delivers.


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## KreAture (Sep 23, 2007)

Absolutely fabulous work ppl! Love knowing instead of guessing.
I am making a driver/booster for modifying store-bought flashlights and have been playing around with overdriving as well as arrays of up to 10 LED's in series. Now I understand why my light output have been decreasing! (I can drive 10x 3.5v LED's in series at 40mA from 2-3 cells btw.)

I wish I could get ahold of theese excotic LED's you are playing with.
Finally found some 7000mcd 30mA 3.5v white ones in 5-packs from a local EE/gizmo shop and in arrays they give me more light pr watt than my one Luxeon. They sure beat it in price too. Wish I could identify their actual make but they come rebranded.

Anyway, fabulous pictures and great info!
(Oh, and yes this is my first post a CPF.)


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## Burgess (Sep 23, 2007)

Hello KreAture -


Welcome to CandlePowerForums !



Let us know if you come up with 

any interesting KreAtions. 


_


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## bestcounsel (Sep 23, 2007)

interesting....i had a SMJED blow on me too...i put one in my old mini-mag and it just died....

I thought it was something i did....


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## KreAture (Sep 23, 2007)

Thanks Burgess
I created a thread in the modified forum about my little project. I posted pcb drawing and schematic there too.

On a sidenote (and a bit more on topic actually), to measure actual output can't one use a light sensor suited for the wavelength one emits?
It wouldn't be absolute, but if one lists the sensor used others can easily replicate the results or measure values that can easily be compared.
Maby using 3 sensors tuned for reg, green and blue respectively would be easiest?
Taos makes some...
TSLB257, TSLG257 and TSLB257 would match Red, Green and Blue.
All deliver an easily quantifiable voltage relative to illuminated power. Their drawback is price. I can get em for $7 a piece. They all cover IR though...
My EE shop has a datasheet here: http://www.elfa.se/pdf/75/07542186.pdf

Hamamatsu makes a lot of interesting sensors too
S9067-01 is interesting as it is designed to have same response as the human eye. It's also cheaper and I'd only need 1 of it. (Around $6 for pin mounted, $3 for surface mounted.)
Datasheet here: http://www.elfa.se/pdf/75/07522618.pdf
It has a very nice response but wouldn't give any readings on the component values of the light emitted.
They also made S9648 that is basically a S9067 in a diode capsule.
My favourite is the S9702, RGB color sensor!
It costs about $10 for me, but has 3 photodiodes one for each of R, G amd B. Actual sensor area is 1mm^2 divided by the 3 colors.
Found the datasheet here: http://sales.hamamatsu.com/assets/pdf/parts_S/S9702.pdf


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## hank (Jan 9, 2008)

I just had to say, I love this place.


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## Probedude (Jan 16, 2008)

hank said:


> I just had to say, I love this place.



Ditto here. Top notch FA by Newbie (who hasn't posted on CPF for a long time  ). He's done what I tend to do with everything I buy - take it apart and see what makes it tick.

I have a pair of LightHound's "* ArcMania Super MJ LED upgrade for Mini Maglight Flashlight" *on the way to me. Can't wait to get them.

Dave


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