# ZTS MBT-1 Battery Tester



## DownUnderLite (Jun 20, 2006)

Hi guy's(n' Gal's)

With all the hype over Li-ion cells exploding, I decided to purchase the MBT-1.
I figure that exploding cells will occur when multiple cells are unmatched.And will not occur with single cell appliances (In our case, that's flashlights!!)

This can occur via different rates of charge. ie when you use a partially used cell and combine it with a new cell. or not completely charging a cell and using it with a completely charged cell (RCR123's). Correct me if I am wrong or right. As this is only my opinion. What do you think?

Anyway, on first use of the MBT-1 on the 3 cells I've got in my SF 9P. I completely freaked out when 2 cells showed 80% and the third showed 20%(in the red danger! danger!!) zone!! What the...??






Decided to do multiple tests and the overall rates were that in fact all cells were actually 80%. So anyone contemplating purchasing one of these units,
My opinion is......"very good unit, easy to use and the wrapping doubles as a protective case (so long as you don't deystroy it when you first try to remove the unit) And don't forget to make multiple readings for each cell.

A good investment if you ask me.


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## Spudman (Jun 20, 2006)

I just got one too. I wish I'd waited one more day because Kevin at Battery Station is now selling them for the best price I've seen. I was getting inconsistent readings on my 123s to I searched cpf and someone said the MBT1 should have very clean contacts to work best. I used deoxit and progold on the buttons even though they looked fine. It seems to have improved the performance. I'm also making sure I have firm contact too, so that may be a part of it.

My only negative is the lack of a test for lithium AAs on my model. I read something about a modified version that tests them, but I don't know much about it. I bought 50 lithiums AAs a while back and would like to test them too.


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## wptski (Jun 20, 2006)

Unless something has changed since I got my ZTS MBT-1, it doesn't check RCR123 or rechargable 123 sized cells, only CR123A Lithium Primary cells.


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## HenryE (Jun 20, 2006)

wptski said:


> Unless something has changed since I got my ZTS MBT-1, it doesn't check RCR123 or rechargable 123 sized cells, only CR123A Lithium Primary cells.



That's right. The company advises that it's different chemistry (Li-ion vs. Li-mn), different software. Primary cells can be reliably tested, but not rechargeables. Our safest and best bet is to use rechargeable protected cells in pairs and keep them together, so I've numbered my pairs using magic marker.

We just got a ZTS tester and upon checking a bunch of cells found some problems, including one pair that was badly matched and several that were near end of life but we had no other way to know it. It was a very good purchase.

Henry


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## cue003 (Jun 20, 2006)

Anyone got a link to the actual page where these are listed on battery stations site?

Curtis


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## TinderBox (UK) (Jun 20, 2006)

cue003

towards the bottom of the page.

http://www.batterystation.com/cpf.htm

regards.


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## cue003 (Jun 20, 2006)

Thanks guys.

Curtis


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## Knight Lights (Jun 20, 2006)

ZTS can modify your unit to check AA Li cells, and I would think could also modify it to check LiIon cells, (I wonder if the different capacities have any effect on the test?)

There is a charge to do that, but from what I have heard it is reasonable.

Bill


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## ianb (Jun 20, 2006)

just a quick question...
can you use a good DMM instead to get accurate reading from you cells? I like the sound of the ZTS but already have a reliable multimeter and am not sure what else it(ZTS) offers?
thanks, Ian


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## spock (Jun 21, 2006)

downunderlite, i have the zts mini mbt and love it. tested 2 s/f 123 batteries out of my e1e. like you, one was 20% and one was 80%. read on the forum why that happens, but can't remember why. found another 123 bat. at 80% and the light works fine.


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## DownUnderLite (Jun 21, 2006)

IanB,

I too have a reliable DMM (I think!!). But a DMM will give accurate voltage only.
Unless you specifically know how many volts represent the capacity of the individual cell then this is very hit and miss. You will take big chances of overdischarging a cell. EG if your cr123 reads 3.2 volts, what does this represent interms of remaining runtime/capacity? 10%? 20%? Who knows? Are you going to risk guessing?
At least with the ZTS, you get a pictorial representation of what is remaining in you cells.


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## HenryE (Jun 21, 2006)

DownUnderLite said:


> IanB,
> 
> I too have a reliable DMM (I think!!). But a DMM will give accurate voltage only.
> Unless you specifically know how many volts represent the capacity of the individual cell then this is very hit and miss.




With no load on the cell, the voltage shown by a DVM/DMM means very little. Even with a constant load, the flat discharge curve of a primary lithium cell means a simple DVM won't do the job. According to the patent - and a peak inside the box - the ZTS tester does a much more complex test that provides more meaningful results. We can't use it for rechargeable cells, but for primary cells it's the best tool I've seen.

Henry


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## InfidelCastro (Jun 21, 2006)

These testers seem neat, but I would prefer something a little more accurate and of better build quality.


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## batterystation (Jun 21, 2006)

Just a heads up. I am working with ZTS to make a "new" tester that is more geared to us flashlight nuts. This is a GREAT cause and I hope they do it. It would check ions, Lithium AAs, along with the regular stuff. I will keep everyone posted on this hopeful event.


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## InfidelCastro (Jun 21, 2006)

batterystation said:


> Just a heads up. I am working with ZTS to make a "new" tester that is more geared to us flashlight nuts. This is a GREAT cause and I hope they do it. It would check ions, Lithium AAs, along with the regular stuff. I will keep everyone posted on this hopeful event.




That would be VERY cool. Please try to convince them to make it NOT look like it's made by Fisher-Price too.


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## TinderBox (UK) (Jun 21, 2006)

InfidelCastro

have you seen the ANSMANN ENERGY-CHECK.

it`s well made, and tests in 10% steps on it`s LCD display, it also shows the voltage.

regards.


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## InfidelCastro (Jun 21, 2006)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> InfidelCastro
> 
> have you seen the ANSMANN ENERGY-CHECK.
> 
> ...




Thanks, I'll have to check that out. This new ZTS tester sounds interesting too.

I wish there was a way I could use my multi-meters to check the capacity of lithiums. You can guess pretty well according to voltage with NiMh's and especially Alkies, but not with lithiums.


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## ianb (Jun 21, 2006)

InfidelCastro said:


> You can guess pretty well according to voltage with NiMh's and especially Alkies, but not with lithiums.



sorry to be stupid...but why is this?

So could you place the (Li)cell under 'load' and then use a DMM?(getting desperate here, just bought a DMM(not for this) and don't want to get a tester as well )

Ian


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## HenryE (Jun 21, 2006)

ianb said:


> sorry to be stupid...but why is this?
> 
> So could you place the (Li)cell under 'load' and then use a DMM?(getting desperate here, just bought a DMM(not for this) and don't want to get a tester as well )
> 
> Ian




A lithium (either manganese or ion) cell has a very flat discharge curve compared to other chemistries such as alkaline, lead, carbon-zinc, etc. It holds up with fairly constant voltage even with a load --- then falls like a rock. So with full capacity or half the remaining capacity or even less it might read about the same under load.

Henry


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## Sigman (Jun 21, 2006)

So should I hold off sending my current model in for mod/upgrade?


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## TENMMIKE (Jun 21, 2006)

THIS IS GOOD NEWS , CAN YOU FIND OUT IF THE FACTORY WILL RETRO FIT OLDER zts mbt-1?, ps i wish they would be more ansmann like in its execution as well(10% and voltage display)


batterystation said:


> Just a heads up. I am working with ZTS to make a "new" tester that is more geared to us flashlight nuts. This is a GREAT cause and I hope they do it. It would check ions, Lithium AAs, along with the regular stuff. I will keep everyone posted on this hopeful event.


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## Spudman (Jun 21, 2006)

Sigman said:


> So should I hold off sending my current model in for mod/upgrade?



I'm gonna hold off with mine. The upgrade is $35 plus shipping both ways. That is pretty close to the cost of the charger. I'd rather buy a second unit if the cost is comparable. 

Kevin,
Is there any timetable on the new model?


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## Sigman (Jun 21, 2006)

Spudman said:


> I'm gonna hold off with mine. The upgrade is $35 plus shipping both ways. That is pretty close to the cost of the charger. I'd rather buy a second unit if the cost is comparable.
> 
> Kevin,
> Is there any timetable on the new model?


:thumbsup:


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## DFiorentino (Jun 21, 2006)

Just tell me who to pay! I could care less if it looks like Fisher-Price, though I prefer Legos.

-DF


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## InfidelCastro (Jun 22, 2006)

Yea, a timetable would be nice. Just a guestamate if anything. Don't worry, we won't hold you to it.


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## DownUnderLite (Jun 22, 2006)

Arghh!! C'mon I just purchased one of these!! Don't tell me that!!

A new specially designed tester just for us. Hmm.... Wallet thinning again!!


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## voodoogreg (Jun 22, 2006)

some multi meters have a load function for batts. mine seem's to be pretty dead on, though limited to std primaries and nimh, plus gives a readout in volts. The ZTS looks cool, but i would like to see the a LCD readout. VDG


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## HenryE (Jun 22, 2006)

voodoogreg said:


> some multi meters have a load function for batts. mine seem's to be pretty dead on, though limited to std primaries and nimh, plus gives a readout in volts. The ZTS looks cool, but i would like to see the a LCD readout. VDG



With everything but lithium chemistry, a multimeter that loads the cell and reads in volts is sufficient. Voltage declines steadily from initial value to "dead", so is a reliable indicator of where you are on the capacity curve.

With lithium, however, voltage under load is a fairly straight line until a sudden drop - look at the various "shoot-outs" here on CPF. A multimeter/DMM/DVM even with a load will show that straight line right up to the end.

I just got the MBT-1 and tested all the new lithium cells around me, with surprises. All the Panasonic cells, still in in the wrapper until I tested them, were 20-40%. All the BatteryStation cells were 100%. Others varied. 

The used cells varied enormously, even though they were in the same drawer as "working". I could easily have put a 20% and 100% pair into the same light... but won't now. I made up a code and use a magic marker.

Henry


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## voodoogreg (Jun 22, 2006)

HenryE said:


> With everything but lithium chemistry, a multimeter that loads the cell and reads in volts is sufficient. Voltage declines steadily from initial value to "dead", so is a reliable indicator of where you are on the capacity curve.
> 
> With lithium, however, voltage under load is a fairly straight line until a sudden drop. A multimeter/DMM/DVM even with a load will show that straight line right up to the end.
> 
> ...



Yeah, i just wish mine had a dedicated lith setting. VDG


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## batterystation (Jun 22, 2006)

Spudman said:


> I'm gonna hold off with mine. The upgrade is $35 plus shipping both ways. That is pretty close to the cost of the charger. I'd rather buy a second unit if the cost is comparable.
> 
> Kevin,
> Is there any timetable on the new model?


I am not sure of a timetable but am supplying a bunch of ion samples and trying to help in any way I can. They did mention that upgrade for the lithium AAs.


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## voodoogreg (Jun 22, 2006)

batterystation said:


> I am not sure of a timetable but am supplying a bunch of ion samples and trying to help in any way I can. They did mention that upgrade for the lithium AAs.



that's will pretty cool kev! BTW I will need to call soon I about out of BS primary 123's! peace bro, VDG


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## wptski (Jun 22, 2006)

There is a rather long thread somewhere here about the ZTS MBT-1 Lithium AA terminal upgrade which I have! The results weren't very good either! It's a waste of money. I asked ZTS about the negative results, provided a link to join in but got no takers. They suggested that we don't know how to hold a cell with one hand and touch the end of the cell using the lead with the other, really!!


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## David_Campen (Jun 23, 2006)

> There is a rather long thread somewhere here about the ZTS MBT-1 Lithium AA terminal upgrade which I have! The results weren't very good either! It's a waste of money. I asked ZTS about the negative results, provided a link to join in but got no takers. They suggested that we don't know how to hold a cell with one hand and touch the end of the cell using the lead with the other, really!!


The results with 123 cells and NiMH cells have been similar. Some people argued the case that perhaps the MBT results at least give some indication of internal resistance of the cells and thus could be useful in matching cells for use in flashlights that run cells in parallel such as the Surefire M6. In most flashlights such as the Pelican M6, where the cells are not in parallel, I don't see the benefit of MBT testing.


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## wptski (Jun 23, 2006)

David_Campen said:


> The results with 123 cells and NiMH cells have been similar. Some people argued the case that perhaps the MBT results at least give some indication of internal resistance of the cells and thus could be useful in matching cells for use in flashlights that run cells in parallel such as the Surefire M6. In most flashlights such as the Pelican M6, where the cells are not in parallel, I don't see the benefit of MBT testing.


Actually, I had bad results testing Ni-MH and sent it back for that! They installed a more current profile but found a problem with the "voltage reference" and replaced. Those two changes made a big difference! I had the Li AA installed too.


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## cy (Jul 15, 2006)

could someone post the link? thanks,



wptski said:


> There is a rather long thread somewhere here about the ZTS MBT-1 Lithium AA terminal upgrade which I have! The results weren't very good either! It's a waste of money. I asked ZTS about the negative results, provided a link to join in but got no takers. They suggested that we don't know how to hold a cell with one hand and touch the end of the cell using the lead with the other, really!!


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## vortechs (Jul 15, 2006)

cy said:


> could someone post the link? thanks,



I'm not sure if this is the thead of interest, but the thread about testing the cheap Energizer L91's from Excess solutions is here: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=113483

I know it at least mentions the mod to the ZTS to test 1.5V lithium primary batteries.


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## GregWormald (Jul 16, 2006)

Anybody have an Ansmann as well as a ZTS? and done some comparison checking?
Greg


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## TheWalkman (Aug 4, 2006)

batterystation said:


> I am not sure of a timetable but am supplying a bunch of ion samples and trying to help in any way I can. They did mention that upgrade for the lithium AAs.


 
BatteryStation,

Any updates on how your project with ZTS is progressing?


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## David_Campen (Aug 4, 2006)

> BatteryStation,
> 
> Any updates on how your project with ZTS is progressing?


Kevin of BatteryStation does not post here any more. See his note near the bottom of the CPf Specials page, just above the shipping charges paragraph:
http://www.batterystation.com/cpf.htm
Send you appreciation to former CPF member Lunarmodule for a job well done.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 5, 2006)

Does anyone have a link to where I can buy the Ansmann battery-check LCD model? I can't find it on Yahoo!, Froogle, or eBay. The 10% steps sounds nice.

Lunarmodule (a.k.a. 808 Tradewinds) has such a huge Jeer thread...


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## SilverFox (Aug 5, 2006)

Hello Tigerhawk,

Due to patent infringements, the Ansmann tester is not sold or imported to the US. To get one you will have to get someone from Europe to purchase it for you and send it to you, and hope you don't get caught...

Tom


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 5, 2006)

Hey Silverfox,

Whose patent did they infringe - ZTS's? I already got an offer from someone across the pond, but found out it's pretty expensive, so I think I'll stick with the testers I have.


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## TinderBox (UK) (Aug 5, 2006)

I have the Ansmann battery-check LCD model.

I paid £30 for it in the UK.

I dont have the ZTS, but the Ansmann really Excellent Quality.

regards.


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## Geologist (Aug 5, 2006)

batterystation said:


> Just a heads up. I am working with ZTS to make a "new" tester that is more geared to us flashlight nuts. This is a GREAT cause and I hope they do it. It would check ions, Lithium AAs, along with the regular stuff. I will keep everyone posted on this hopeful event.



way cool Kevin - can't wait! ok I guess I will have to!


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## TENMMIKE (Aug 5, 2006)

iv got them both,very similar you get a 10% resolution as opposed to the 20% of the zts and you also get a voltage read out and a few more battery options, i had a brit friend send it to me. from a link i gave him


GregWormald said:


> Anybody have an Ansmann as well as a ZTS? and done some comparison checking?
> Greg


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## Anders (Aug 6, 2006)

I've just ordered the Ansmann ENERGY CHECK LCD tester from germany*, *nice with the 10 % resolution


Ansmann also have this combined charger and tester, anyone tried it?
http://www.ansmann.de/en/index.htm?tab=description&pid=698&pr2id=&appid=


Anders


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## Haz (Aug 10, 2006)

batterystation said:


> Just a heads up. I am working with ZTS to make a "new" tester that is more geared to us flashlight nuts. This is a GREAT cause and I hope they do it. It would check ions, Lithium AAs, along with the regular stuff. I will keep everyone posted on this hopeful event.


 
Any update on this new ZTS battery tester?, i'm keen to see this happen.


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## wptski (Aug 10, 2006)

Haz said:


> Any update on this new ZTS battery tester?, i'm keen to see this happen.


Sounds like a tester with less terminals or the ones used more by the CPF crowd. As far as the Li AA terminal goes, the results weren't good and like my post above states, ZTS suggest that our battery contacts are dirty or/and we don't know hold a battery properly!


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## flash99dark (Aug 10, 2006)

wptski....Thanks for the heads up on this...I was about to buy one.. ZTS......

I think I will try to get an Annsman through a Euro friend.....Great contributions


by all in this thread...William


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## David_Campen (Aug 10, 2006)

> I think I will try to get an Annsman through a Euro friend


My guess would be that the Ansman won't be any more accurate.


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## TinderBox (UK) (Aug 10, 2006)

anyone looking for an Ansmann ENERGY CHECK LCD you can buy one here.

send an e-mail first, mention that your a CPF member.

if your outside the EU, you should pay the VAT free price.

http://www.cellpacksolutions.com/Search_Data_Sheet.asp?ID=ENERGYCHECKLCD

regards.


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## flash99dark (Aug 10, 2006)

Thank You Tinderbox........Helping is what makes CPF great..William


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 2, 2006)

David_Campen, why is the ZTS MBT-1, and Amsmann not accurate. Is it that they are not accurate measuring primary Lithium batteries? Are they more accurate with other types of batteries? Is there a better way to measure the remaining capacity of batteries?

Bil


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## David_Campen (Oct 3, 2006)

> David_Campen, why is the ZTS MBT-1, and Amsmann not accurate. Is it that they are not accurate measuring primary Lithium batteries? Are they more accurate with other types of batteries? Is there a better way to measure the remaining capacity of batteries?


Empirical evidence is that the MBT is just not accurate with primary Lithium 123 cells, Lithium AA cells and NiMH cells. Since the Ansmann apparently uses the same technique as the MBT there is no reason to expect that it would be any different.

As to why; these testers are trying to use changes of voltage measured at different current levels to deduce the amount of capacity remaining in the cell. This probably worked OK with Carbon/Zinc and Alkaline cells that show a pronounced change in voltage at a given load as the cell is depleted but with Lithium primary cells this characteristic is not there - Lithium primary cells maintain voltage very well as the cell is depleted; they have a flat discharge curve. With Lithium primary cells variations between manufacturer or even manufacturing runs have as pronounced an effect on the voltage vs current as does the remaining cell capacity. To get useful values of remaining cell capacity from one of these testers it would need to be calibrated to a particular batch of cells (and the tester would need a spring loaded battery holder to minimize variations in contact resistance).


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## wptski (Oct 3, 2006)

When I first got the ZTS MBT-1, I found it to be inaccurate on Ni-MH cells. There was a new Ni-MH profile since I purchased mine. I returned it to be checked out and at least the new profile installed. They also found the "voltage reference" to be barely within specs and that was replaced, whatever it is! I also had the Lithium AA terminal installed too. The Lithium AA was a waste of money but the Ni-MH was vastly improved and compares to capacity measured with a Triton/ICE charger and a CBA-II. Somewhere in the past there is a thread where this has all been documented. I do not agree with David Campen when it comes to testing Ni-MH cells. I find that the ZTS MBT-1 does a great job of testing Ni-MH cells.

Can't say much about the CR123A as I don't use them that much and can only go by other tests done here.


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## InfidelCastro (Oct 3, 2006)

David_Campen said:


> Empirical evidence is that the MBT is just not accurate with primary Lithium 123 cells, Lithium AA cells and NiMH cells. Since the Ansmann apparently uses the same technique as the MBT there is no reason to expect that it would be any different.
> 
> As to why; these testers are trying to use changes of voltage measured at different current levels to deduce the amount of capacity remaining in the cell. This probably worked OK with Carbon/Zinc and Alkaline cells that show a pronounced change in voltage at a given load as the cell is depleted but with Lithium primary cells this characteristic is not there - Lithium primary cells maintain voltage very well as the cell is depleted; they have a flat discharge curve. With Lithium primary cells variations between manufacturer or even manufacturing runs have as pronounced an effect on the voltage vs current as does the remaining cell capacity. To get useful values of remaining cell capacity from one of these testers it would need to be calibrated to a particular batch of cells (and the tester would need a spring loaded battery holder to minimize variations in contact resistance).




So you're basically saying that a tester for all types of lithium CR123A primaries is not possible? It has to be calibrated to the batch?


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## dekelsey61 (Oct 3, 2006)

Wptski- Hi, How did you know if your ZTS MBt-1 needed to be updated for NIHM cells? What was it doing? I just bought one and how can you tell if the latest update is installed? I called to company and they said that it should have the most up to date update file in it. Thank you. Dan


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## wptski (Oct 3, 2006)

dekelsey61 said:


> Wptski- Hi, How did you know if your ZTS MBt-1 needed to be updated for NIHM cells? What was it doing? I just bought one and how can you tell if the latest update is installed? I called to company and they said that it should have the most up to date update file in it. Thank you. Dan


It was off compared to discharge testing on a Triton/ICE charger and CBA-II. So, I contacted them and as I remember, I purchased it in 12/05. They said that a new NI-MH profile was used starting sometime in 1/06. Don't know if that was the whole problem or the other just part of it.


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## TENMMIKE (Oct 7, 2006)

DAMN IT!!! what a friggin waste.


David_Campen said:


> Kevin of BatteryStation does not post here any more. See his note near the bottom of the CPf Specials page, just above the shipping charges paragraph:
> http://www.batterystation.com/cpf.htm
> Send you appreciation to former CPF member Lunarmodule for a job well done.


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## InfidelCastro (Oct 14, 2006)

InfidelCastro said:


> So you're basically saying that a tester for all types of lithium CR123A primaries is not possible? It has to be calibrated to the batch?




David Campen, I was wondering if you could answer this please?


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## cy (Oct 14, 2006)

David... I'm puzzled why you have repeatly posted information contrary to what folks that have tested loads of cells come up with. backed up with discharge graphs and charts. 

are you privy to information we have not been exposed to? if so please post information you are basing your beliefs upon. otherwise you are doing a dis-service to the cpf community. 

unless you have missed newbie's testing results for primary CR123 cells.... miss-matched lithium cells in series resulting in reverse charge is a primary requirement for a venting/explosive event to occur. 

ZTS testers may not match exactly remaining MAH as compared to a discharge test with triton or CBA. but ZTS testers successfully determinds cell condition to allow matching up of cells. 

Newbie is recommending a voltage reading in addition to ZTS readings for primary lithium cells. so the ansman tester if based upon same principals in addition to a voltage readout may be prefered. 

again unless you can prove proof to the contrary... miss-leading statements like below is doing a dis-service to the user community. 



David_Campen said:


> The results with 123 cells and NiMH cells have been similar. Some people argued the case that perhaps the MBT results at least give some indication of internal resistance of the cells and thus could be useful in matching cells for use in flashlights that run cells in parallel such as the Surefire M6. In most flashlights such as the Pelican M6, where the cells are not in parallel, I don't see the benefit of MBT testing.


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## InfidelCastro (Oct 14, 2006)

I can appreciate what he's saying regarding voltage matching of lithium primaries, that's why I would like it if he would elaborate. I've seen many CR123A primaries with different voltage readings in the same pack. Yet they can have relatively the same capacity remaining give or take a few percentage points.

He does seem to make a good point about this in my limited experience with these cells. But then again, I also think lithium is lithium so it has the same general voltage, but also different makers charge their cells with different capacities, so I really don't know what to think. Maybe there's less room for error with lithium cells, so that's a major factor?


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## David_Campen (Oct 15, 2006)

> David... I'm puzzled why you have repeatly posted information contrary to what folks that have tested loads of cells come up with. backed up with discharge graphs and charts.


Are you talking about Newbies thread???
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=124776
In that thread there were 14 tests of ZTS mismatched cells. Only 1 vented and that test also had one of the cells preheated. So, of 13 tests run with ZTS mismatched cells there was no venting This seems pretty good evidence that ZTS matching of 123 cells is worthless for predicting venting events.


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## vortechs (Oct 15, 2006)

David_Campen said:


> Are you talking about Newbies thread???
> http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=124776
> In that thread there were 14 tests of ZTS mismatched cells. Only 1 vented and that test also had one of the cells preheated. So, of 13 tests run with ZTS mismatched cells there was no venting This seems pretty good evidence that ZTS matching of 123 cells is worthless for predicting venting events.



Statistically, 14 is still a fairly small sample size, especially for uncommon events like cell venting.


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## David_Campen (Oct 15, 2006)

> Statistically, 14 is still a fairly small sample size, especially for uncommon events like cell venting.


Yes, it is not a large or comprehensive enough set of tests to conclusively prove that ZTS matching is worthless for preventing venting. I did not go into those details since I was simply countering the argument that there is evidence that ZTS testing is not worthless.


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## David_Campen (Oct 15, 2006)

> David... I'm puzzled why you have repeatly posted information contrary to what folks that have tested loads of cells come up with. backed up with discharge graphs and charts.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


BTW CY, while it doesn't really matter inasmuch as your fundamental premise of the value of ZTS testing is unsupported; I do want to point out that it is rather disingenuous of you to criticize a statement I made in June for alledgedly ignoring data from a thread that wasn't started until July.


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## cy (Oct 16, 2006)

nope, newbies tests has nothing to do with matching actual discharge capacity with ZTS results. 

what I'm referring to is Silver's and other's multiple posts concerning this topic. they provide loads of data on how results was arrived at. 

VS I've never seen what data you base your findings that ZTS are worthless in your multiple posts on this topic. 

further you posting indicates matching up cells in series lights like pelican is a waste of time. when pelican M6 has one of the highest incidence of venting of any light. 

general consenses is ZTS while doesnot match exactly discharge curve with triton and CBA does match up cells. which is really the more critical factor to avoid reverse charge situations. 

again... where is your data? not saying you don't have any, just that I would like to share it. you could have a very valid point. 

ZTS tester may not be even remotely close to ideal, but I know of no other product besides Ansman. that would take it's place. 



David_Campen said:


> Are you talking about Newbies thread???
> http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=124776
> In that thread there were 14 tests of ZTS mismatched cells. Only 1 vented and that test also had one of the cells preheated. So, of 13 tests run with ZTS mismatched cells there was no venting This seems pretty good evidence that ZTS matching of 123 cells is worthless for predicting venting events.


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## David_Campen (Oct 16, 2006)

> what I'm referring to is Silver's and other's multiple posts concerning this topic. they provide loads of data on how results was arrived at.


Then provide the links to these threads, the ones with the discharge graphs and charts that show that ZTS matching can prevent venting events.



> VS I've never seen what data you base your findings that ZTS are worthless in your multiple posts on this topic.


What I have said is that there is no evidence that ZTS matching is of any value.



> further you posting indicates matching up cells in series lights like pelican is a waste of time. when pelican M6 has one of the highest incidence of venting of any light.


This may be true about the Pelican but it has no bearing on the value of ZTS testing.



> ZTS tester may not be even remotely close to ideal, but I know of no other product besides Ansman. that would take it's place.


I certainly agree with the first part of that statement. As for the second part, I have a magical talisman that prevents venting events as well as protecting against tiger attacks and bullets; it should be as effective as ZTS matching.


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## cy (Oct 16, 2006)

do a search on silver's posts if you want to see. 

you are side tracking what was requested. which is where is YOUR data! that ZTS is worthless. what are you basing your opinions upon?

the only reason I mentioned the Pelican M6 is what you posted is completely different from data Newbie has come up with. 

one of the required elements for venting seems to be mulitple cells with at least one cell considerably more discharged than other cell(s) resulting in a reverse charge situation. 

but this has nothing to do with your opinion ZTS tester are worthless. again why do you think this?



David_Campen said:


> Then provide the links to these threads, the ones with the discharge graphs and charts that show that ZTS matching can prevent venting events.
> 
> 
> What I have said is that there is no evidence that ZTS matching is of any value.
> ...


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## vortechs (Oct 16, 2006)

*Keep the discussion professional please*



David_Campen said:


> As for the second part, I have a magical talisman that prevents venting events as well as protecting against tiger attacks and bullets; it should be as effective as ZTS matching.



This thread is beginning to devolve from a rational discussion into something else. I suggest reviewing the CPF rules.


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## David_Campen (Oct 16, 2006)

> do a search on silver's posts if you want to see.


I see, the data to support your position is doesn't exist and you aren't willing to admit it. There is no point in talking with you anymore.


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## InfidelCastro (Oct 16, 2006)

*Re: Keep the discussion professional please*



vortechs said:


> This thread is beginning to devolve from a rational discussion into something else. I suggest reviewing the CPF rules.





If you would like to be a moderator, I suggest you contact Sasha.


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## koala (Oct 16, 2006)

Just buy the product and test it yourself. It has 30-day money back guarantee.


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## HenryE (Oct 16, 2006)

We use so many cells that risk and testing are important. However, this thread has missed a point that can be easily checked.

We were worried about venting hazards, so went to an extreme. Using the tester, we deliberately mismatched cells and indeed were reasonably successful in causing venting. The chemistry or physics didn't matter. The precision didn't matter. What did matter is that the tester was (reasonably) consistent in its ability to pair cells that "worked" in a flashlight but were dangerous to use with each other. That was enough for us (and I'm an engineer). 

I would not consider putting multiple lithium cells in a flashlight without checking them on that tester, but would throw it away in a moment if something better came along. As usual, safety is #1 - and #2 is so far behind it's invisible.

Henry


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## cy (Oct 16, 2006)

huh..? 



David_Campen said:


> I see, the data to support your position is doesn't exist and you aren't willing to admit it. There is no point in talking with you anymore.


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## David_Campen (Oct 16, 2006)

> Using the tester, we deliberately mismatched cells and indeed were reasonably successful in causing venting.


Who did this, was the data published here?


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## HenryE (Oct 16, 2006)

David_Campen said:


> Who did this, was the data published here?



My tech did it, and the results weren't published either here or in a professional journal. However, our operational needs were met.

Anyone can replicate such results - it's trivial (though smelly).

Henry


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## cy (Oct 17, 2006)

seems you have no data to support your position...
do you even own a ZTS tester? 

there's plenty of posts like the one above. supporting ZTS does indeed work. cells containing simular charges should not reverse charge. taking away one of several key factors, for venting to occur. 

no one is remotely claiming ZTS is precise in it's results. but it's the best option that's currently available. 




David_Campen said:


> I see, the data to support your position is doesn't exist and you aren't willing to admit it. There is no point in talking with you anymore.


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## doctordun (Dec 14, 2012)

Is this still a good tested for Primary CR123's and perhaps the rechargeable 123's.
Is there a better option available?
I also have had a ton of the AA NIMH's.


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