# Led Lensers



## reeceh (Apr 13, 2010)

Hey guys im from australia,

im wanting to get maybe an p7 or m14, ive been told the m14 is better however i wana know is it much better or not worth it, or is there an even better led in the same price range??


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## Locoboy5150 (Apr 13, 2010)

If it were me, I'd avoid LED Lenser flashlights because they do not have regulation circuitry built into them. Regulated lights have constant brightness while with unregulated lights their light output goes down as the battery drains.

I'm partial to Fenix lights because of good experiences with them in the past, but there are lots of other good lights out there that have good regulation built into them. Just look around CPF for "what light should I buy" threads for suggestions. There also is a good flashlight selection guide that you can fill out and then post in order to get accurate recommendations from CPF members.


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## Gunner12 (Apr 13, 2010)

Unless you get them at a really large discount, then I wouldn't get them. They are good lights, but IMO, not worth their MSRP price.

They have an adjustable beam and throw well but lack spill, regulation, and multi AAA light are usually large for the capacity. 3 AAAs only have a bit more capacity then 2 AA battery. Also, their written runtime is deceiving.

A different and/or brighter LED does not mean a brighter light. The same LED can be drive harder for more output or less to be dimmer.

What will you be using the light for?
Price range?
Runtime?

:welcome:


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## Tuikku (Apr 13, 2010)

My first LED-light was Led Lenser. I'm quite sure now, that it will be my last Led Lenser...
You can get so much more with same price or same performance with superior quality.


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## Narcosynthesis (Apr 13, 2010)

I would have to agree with the others - While they seem solid lights, you can get better for the money.

The biggest downside for me is the fact that they are unregulated - so the light output directly relates to how full the battery is. You will get a great bright light at first, but it will steadily dim throughout the batteries charge - this is how they claim both the high output (measured on a fresh set of batteries) and long runtime (which is only that long if you can put up with hours of dim glow for the last while)

Compare this to a regulated light like Fenix which uses some circuitry to get a constant output from the battery, so when they claim you will get x lumens for y hours, that is what you will actually get.

I will add in another vote for Fenix as a good alternative too. They have a good range of lights so you should find something to suit, and every one I have gotten so far seems to be a solid and good value light.


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## kramer5150 (Apr 13, 2010)

Over priced for what they are.
Direct drive + alkaline only = FAIL

A direct driven / unregulated is not a bad circuit design (IMHO), provided its thoughtfully designed around cells that have a fairly linear discharge curve. Its the fact that Lenser does not recommend NiMH cells, that makes these lights real snoozers.

The P7 is $80. You can get a really GOOD light from any of the popular CPF manufacturers for that much dough.


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## JCD (Apr 13, 2010)

To be fair, while it's not nearly as bright, my LED Lenser Digitac I (single AA) provides a MUCH better quality (shape & color) beam than either of my Fenix lights (PD30, P3D). It's an outstanding light for the $12 or so that I paid for it.


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## kramer5150 (Apr 13, 2010)

JCD said:


> To be fair, while it's not nearly as bright, my LED Lenser Digitac I (single AA) provides a MUCH better quality (shape & color) beam than either of my Fenix lights (PD30, P3D). It's an outstanding light for the $12 or so that I paid for it.



$12 is a fair price IMHO. FWIW, the P5 is the only lenser thats really caught my attention. Its not cheap though, and for that much $$ there are better lights available.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 13, 2010)

I have a whole bunch of led lenser torches as well as a whole bunch of fenix, quark, eagletac, nitecore and the rest.

If you want a simple torch without flashing jingle bell modes then the led lenser P7 is up there with the best. In a year of every day carry and use mine proved itself tough, versatile thanks to the focussable head system and bright for a lonnnng time especially when I was using eneloop or imedion rechargeable batteries. It's a good long range torch and can see further than many other torches that have much higher lumen rates. It also takes a very simple easy to buy battery. 

People on here make a big thing of the lack of regulation but frankly when using rechargeable nimh I doubt anyone could spot the difference with their eyes until the end of the battery power. Despite quite a few led lenser haters on this site thinking otehrwise, being unregulated does not make a torch bad or lesser quality, just different. There are advantages and disadvantages to both systems. Best to make a judgement for yourself based on what you actually need.

As for getting indignant about the marketing hype, I'd not bother, I'd just read the review threads on here and other sites by people who have actually purchased the torches and see the facts and make a judgement for yourself based on how you see the torch fitting your needs.

The P14 is a fairly large torch and very long range. Works the same as the smaller P7. M14 is newer one that works a bit different. There's a thread here somewhere.


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## AmperSand (Apr 13, 2010)

Have any of you bothered to even look at the M14?
I know what some of the stuff you are saying rings very true to the P7. But the M14 seems to be completely different and a step in the right direction for LED Lenser. I'm not trying to hype LED Lenser up by any means, but a lot of what has been said so far is regurgitated information from years ago, being spat out without doing any additional research on any of the newer models produced by LED Lenser.

Even still, depending on what the usage of the flashlight is going to be, I don't think anything that takes AA batteries will come anywhere near the runtime/throw (and usable light) of the M14.


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## parnass (Apr 13, 2010)

JCD said:


> To be fair, while it's not nearly as bright, my LED Lenser Digitac I (single AA) provides a MUCH better quality (shape & color) beam than either of my Fenix lights (PD30, P3D). It's an outstanding light for the $12 or so that I paid for it.



You got a good deal. I think I paid $30 or $40 back in the day. My LED Lenser David 15 is still working well after several years. As I posted in another thread, the beam is much cleaner and the tint better than the Photon Proton Pro I owned. I power it with an Energizer lithium primary and haven't noticed any decline in output.

There are newer and brighter emitters available now, but the David 15 was a pleasant surprise.


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## Bullzeyebill (Apr 13, 2010)

If I was a novice I could live with the LL P7, especially if the light was not used much. I have one, did not buy it, and I am quite pleased with it, especially on low beam, which with night adapted eyes is plenty bright for walking around, and focuses down to a sharp bright beam. Very interesting light, and I do run it with 4 Eneloop AAA's. High is not driven that hard and I can see no real problem with NiMh's. I too would appreciate some kind of regulated circuit. Low level is the real winner in this light, and should not strain four Alkalines.

Bill


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## JCD (Apr 13, 2010)

kramer5150 said:


> $12 is a fair price IMHO. FWIW, the P5 is the only lenser thats really caught my attention. Its not cheap though, and for that much $$ there are better lights available.



My Digitac is the only exposure I've had to the LED Lenser lights. I wasn't all that impressed with it at first, when I was going through the "more lumens always means better" stage of flashlight collecting. But, after realizing that there's a lot to be said for smooth, warm beams, it has grown on me. I still like my Surefires better, though!


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 13, 2010)

AmperSand said:


> Have any of you bothered to even look at the M14?
> I know what some of the stuff you are saying rings very true to the P7. But the M14 seems to be completely different and a step in the right direction for LED Lenser.


It seems a bit obvious to me that most people here have responded based on their own prejudices by the fact that out of 10 responses, only one bothered to ask what the potential use of the torch is before either recommending something else or railing against the supposed downfalls of the LLP7.

I'm one who couldn't give a rats whether a torch has IC's or resistors or transistors or whatever inside. If the torch works for my usage then I'll recommend it. It seems to me that even if I wanted a ute for carrying rocks people here would tell me that a BMW 7 series is much better because it has cruise control and multispeed hazard flashers..............


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## Spartigus (Apr 13, 2010)

Hey!!!
I carry a Led Lenser P2 in my pocket as my backup light, or for when i dont want to carry my Fenix TA-21 lol. I really love her, she is small but powerful enough, compared to my similar sized MagLight, the P2 really is very bright. I did try out a few other Led Lenser torches at the shop, and they felt solid and were bright . 

I like the focusing on the lights, how it has the screw (on my P2) or the push/pull (on the larger model P range, cant remember exact model number).

I can see that on the P2, the light gets a bit dimmer as i use the battery, but for what i got the P2 for, it works very well , I am just using standard AA batteries. But for what i got the P2 for, she is perfect! She was my first serious flashlight, apart from my mini maglight (single AA batery). 

What i like about the P2, is that it has a pocket clip that is both inconspicuous, yet very functional. She clips onto my rear right jeans pocket, with plenty of room for my EDC knife (Benchmade Mini-Griptillian) to be quickly accessible.


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## AmperSand (Apr 13, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> It seems a bit obvious to me that most people here have responded based on their own prejudices by the fact that out of 10 responses, only one bothered to ask what the potential use of the torch is before either recommending something else or railing against the supposed downfalls of the LLP7.
> 
> I'm one who couldn't give a rats whether a torch has IC's or resistors or transistors or whatever inside. If the torch works for my usage then I'll recommend it. It seems to me that even if I wanted a ute for carrying rocks people here would tell me that a BMW 7 series is much better because it has cruise control and multispeed hazard flashers..............



I agree. I by far am not biased either way. I own a variety of different flashlights like yourself. Ranging from Nitecore extreme r2, Nitecore SR3, Nitecore D10, 2 x 4D aspheric maglites with XRE R2's, 4D mag with SSC P4 and standard SMO reflector, Ultrafire C3 SS Q5, Romisen RC-A4 with XRE Q5, Romisen RC-C6, 3AA Minimag LED, 3AA Minimag LED with SSC P4 mod, Led Lenser P14.

At the end of the day, I think if i were to run with one flashlight (like a normal person would) I'd prob have to pick the P14 out of what I have for the fact it uses 4 AA's, has the most throw out of all of my flashlights, (apart from the ashperic mags, although the P14 has much more usable light at the distance its thrown), easily produces more light in the real world (the others look fantastic on paper, however move into real world and the situation seems to change).
So yeah, given the M14 now uses a driver circuit, seems the M14 is a damn good upgrade from a P14.

Also for the usage of the flashlight, if it were a request for an EDC flashlight, M14 would be pretty silly, P7 is even pushing the boundries. For an EDC I'd definately look elsewhere.


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## CM2010 (Apr 14, 2010)

The P7 & M14 were my 2 first flashlight buys and before i bought these i didnt really know any different,since joining this place ive purchased a EagleTac T20C2 and a Olight m30.

I do find alot of snobbery around here regarding LED Lenser as i do still like the ones i bought,not sure i would buy another one tho!

Anyways the P7 & M14 are rather on the large side to be considered as a EDC the M14 is very chunky and weighty but it does seem to throw out alot of light and does light up objects further than my T20C2 & M30.


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## Blinding-Lights (Apr 14, 2010)

Stay away from LED Lensers. If your going to spend that much on a light you might as well get a Fenix or something. I have had a few in the past and none of them lasted more then a couple months.


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## Ozgeardo (Apr 14, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> It seems to me that even if I wanted a ute for carrying rocks people here would tell me that a BMW 7 series is much better because it has cruise control and multispeed hazard flashers..............


 
Well said JaguarDave but remember many of our CPF readers will not understand what a "ute" is (no it is not a female sheep on heat) LOL _translation Ute = Light Pick Up Truck_

Now also to be the devils advocate I notice that when ever Led Lenser is mentioned we always seems to get the same negative responses (plus a few positives).

Firstly Led Lenser is one of very few mainstream "torch" (_there we go again translation = flashlight) _manufacturers that get there product onto the shelves of stores down under and at reasonable prices I may also note.
I have seen many LL products cheaper in Australia than in equivalent USD ? Go Figure :thinking:
Names like Fenix, Olight, JetBeam etc are for the most part unknown except for us enthusiasts (although it is slowly changing).

Now AAA batts are generally considered by most enthusiasts as less than desirable but they do serve a purpose. I use AAA as power in many pieces of equipment in the field as I can have nearly all my power requirements covered by one size/chemistry of Batt which makes redundancy and interchangeability a desirable feature. When they start making common garden variety GPS's and other pieces of mission critical equipment with 18650's etc that will be fine but Lithium Ion's are not across the board yet and availability of AAA's (and AA) is a BIG deciding factor in the land down under.

I own a couple of LL products and have played with a P7 in the field.
I also own many dozens of other top end lights powered by all the various batt combos and given intended purpose/performance and cost/batt considerations yet alone availability then the P7 is probably a good reasonable choice for a new flashlight enthusiast down here :thumbsup:


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## Egsise (Apr 14, 2010)

Egsise said:


> I know this is old news, but I just tested the Led Lenser P7 vs. Fenix TK20.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Egsise said:


> I had a chance to borrow a LL P7 again, took some quick beamshots, it's snowing so no chance to take better ones, sry.
> That tree is about 75m or 250ft away.
> Led Lenser has a bigger hotspot, and the brown and green tree looks gray but thats about it.
> 
> ...


 


Egsise said:


> Actually it's the it's the 200 lumen version number 3.1, newest I could find from here.
> 
> 
> Yes it's nice, the scale is selected so that the output is very close to the same as advertised, TK20 starts from 150 and LL P7 from 170 lumens.
> ...


It would be interesting to see similar comparison between LL P14 and some 18650 Li-ion powered "real" flashlights.


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## GMLRS (Apr 14, 2010)

What bugs me about LED Lenser lights are the switches, if you put them in your pocket or touch them to anything they will stay on. I doubt they are very efficient, get something with a Cree LED. They just announced they have a 160 Lumens per watt LED. Just bought 2 Fenix LD20s, 2AA, 180 lumens. the new one is 205 or 210 lumens. I am very very happy with them, 71 hours at 9 lumens. 

ITP A6 Polestar, Cree MC-E, 6xAA, 700 Lumens. 80 US$

Get something with a Cree LED, or something as efficient and versatile. :shakehead :shakehead


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## AmperSand (Apr 14, 2010)

GMLRS said:


> What bugs me about LED Lenser lights are the switches, if you put them in your pocket or touch them to anything they will stay on. I doubt they are very efficient, get something with a Cree LED. They just announced they have a 160 Lumens per watt LED. Just bought 2 Fenix LD20s, 2AA, 180 lumens. the new one is 205 or 210 lumens. I am very very happy with them, 71 hours at 9 lumens.
> 
> ITP A6 Polestar, Cree MC-E, 6xAA, 700 Lumens. 80 US$
> 
> Get something with a Cree LED, or something as efficient and versatile. :shakehead :shakehead



Last time I checked all the current range of LED Lenser flashlights use Cree LED's.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 14, 2010)

GMLRS said:


> What bugs me about LED Lenser lights are the switches, if you put them in your pocket or touch them to anything they will stay on.


I put up with this issue in my P7 for about twelve months until I went exploring inside the tailcap. Turns out that one can adjust the tension of the pushbutton spring by removing the battery pack/switch to access the retaining ring for the pushbutton (which is in the tailcap, the switch itself is on the battery pack) and screwing the ring in further. My torch immediately ceased being easy to accidently activate. 

I may be naive in the way of modern torchaholicism, but for me the way my first generation P7 is put together and the obvious care taken with design and manufacturing of the general componentry within it gives me a feeling of assured quality that I just don't get with my fenix and quark torches (although my TK20 comes very close). 

For me, the quality of a torch has nothing to do with the number of features that it has, it's about the feel, the reliability and the way it's put together. I seem to carry that attitude across to life in general and that's perhaps why I still use a reel to reel tape recorder, compete using a side by side shotgun (ok, I'll admit it's custom made) and drive forty five year old Jaguars...............


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2010)

Locoboy5150 said:


> If it were me, I'd avoid LED Lenser flashlights because they do not have regulation circuitry built into them. Regulated lights have constant brightness while with unregulated lights their light output goes down as the battery drains.





Narcosynthesis said:


> The biggest downside for me is the fact that they are unregulated - so the light output directly relates to how full the battery is. You will get a great bright light at first, but it will steadily dim throughout the batteries charge - this is how they claim both the high output (measured on a fresh set of batteries) and long runtime (which is only that long if you can put up with hours of dim glow for the last while)




Those comments don't apply to the LED lenser P5*R*, the Lithium-Ion rechargeable cell would have a relatively flat discharge (compared to alkaline), the M series is promoted as having a constant regulated mode/option 

One of my co-workers picked up a P17 locally for about $140.00 AUD and is really happy with it, when you consider a stock 3D Maglight used to cost $80+ until recently $140.00 isn't a huge stretch for a B&M consumer, the only way to obtain something better here is if I build it OR they purchase something online :thumbsup:


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## McAllan (Apr 14, 2010)

*ALL THOSE WHINING ABOUT THE RESISTOR AND DIRECT DRIVE
*
Has anyone actually tried some of the newer *M-series?* And especially the *M14* which should have addressed many if not all if the criticism.
I agree that their past direct drives and partly their resistor driven as P14 are 

Price is always a personal question but reality is that there's no lights to my knowledge which was such unique lens system in contrast to a traditional reflector. If course that's a personal preference too. I have an M14 ordered as I want to try it out for myself. Unfortunately I haven't received it yet so can't comment it further.

In the meantime you whining folks might want to take a look at this site:
http://www.m-series.com.au/
A description of the M14 with all it's bells and whistles. Unfortunately not many objective data though.


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## Ragiska (Apr 14, 2010)

McAllan said:


> *ALL THOSE WHINING ABOUT THE RESISTOR AND DIRECT DRIVE
> *
> Has anyone actually tried some of the newer *M-series?* And especially the *M14* which should have addressed many if not all if the criticism.
> I agree that their past direct drives and partly their resistor driven as P14 are
> ...


you can order the same lights off-label direct from the factories in China for 1/4 the cost 

many of them are listed on DX or KD


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## McAllan (Apr 14, 2010)

Ragiska said:


> you can order the same lights off-label direct from the factories in China for 1/4 the cost
> 
> many of them are listed on DX or KD



Sure. Like you can get SureFire, Arc and MagLite there too 

I've not noticed any that come close to the real thing except KD which has a few older models of the real thing - at same price as locally. The closest was a Small Sun copy of a Led Lenser V6 power chip although with a Cree. Even got a LL belt holster. But was noticeable lower quality. Fit, finish, craftsmanship, non zoom TIR lens - _everything_ was lesser quality but output was great. Modded it with a proper driver and gave it away to a very happy receiver who's never seens such powerful light in a small package.

And you've not even addressed the driver question.


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## hyperloop (Apr 14, 2010)

well, personally i own a P5 and a P14 and they are great lights!! love the focusing ability! non regulation isnt a huge push factor for me at least there is still light being emitted. 

Have had some lights running on protected rechargeable cells and they just die off immediately once the protection circuit cuts in, so having a light that gradually runs down isnt a huge disadvantage.

end of the day, it all boils down to personal preferences and if you like the LED Lensers go for it


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## Egsise (Apr 14, 2010)

McAllan said:


> *ALL THOSE WHINING ABOUT THE RESISTOR AND DIRECT DRIVE
> *
> Has anyone actually tried some of the newer *M-series?*


M7 lol, now the circuit drops the output to 60%, lol.
http://translate.google.de/translat...nlampen-test.de/reviews/preview-led-lenser-m7

Any news about M14, is the circuit the same? :green:


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## Swedpat (Apr 14, 2010)

I have a P14 and like it. This will provide quite (perceived) even output some hour or so. But yes; I think it's a pity that such a high-tech-described company doesn't make their lights with a real heatsinking and regulation. They could then be way better and attractive for even more flashoholics! 
And I am sure more flashoholics would buy them though a higher price. But yes; fewer non-flashoholics would, and there may be the reason? We are in the minority among the flashlight buyers...

Regards, Patric


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## mcnair55 (Apr 14, 2010)

If you live in the UK Led Lenser are easy to buy off the shelf in many outlets,try buying another make with a decent choice you would find it near on impossible,you would have to go the internet route.Sports type places have the odd Gerber but Led Lenser supply the retailer with a decent glass display cabinet.
I have a P3 and a K3 and have no issues at all with them,they do a job for me and that is all I am bothered about.


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## McAllan (Apr 14, 2010)

Egsise said:


> M7 lol, now the circuit drops the output to 60%, lol.
> http://translate.google.de/translat...nlampen-test.de/reviews/preview-led-lenser-m7
> 
> Any news about M14, is the circuit the same? :green:



If you look here you can see that the M14 is supposed to have _two_ energy modes. (And here how to change the mode).
There's the supposed to be a constant current mode and an economy mode - the economy mode reminding of the old resistor method.
That sounds quite interesting. You have to click like crazy to change it though 

Odd if the M7 isn't the same as M14 except size and power source :thinking:


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## Egsise (Apr 14, 2010)

McAllan said:


> If you look here you can see that the M14 is supposed to have _two_ energy modes....


Didn't you read the article that I linked, the M7 _has_ two modes, just like M14?


> In addition to the various modes that will be described later still, the M7 has two modes cross-energy programs, from Zweibrüder as "Energy Saving Mode" and "constant current mode" means. ​ In the latter, the lamp starts with maximum brightness, which remains constant for a few minutes and falls in the next few minutes to 60 percent of the maximum brightness. ​ These 60 percent remain set until the batteries are empty. ​In this program, the brightness is regulated only through the built-in temperature-control unit. ​ In the energy saving program to start the lamp behaves exactly as though the brightness is turned down to 50 percent here and 25 minutes to 15 percent.


Like you said, it would be odd if M14 circuit isn't the same....constant current mode that drops the output by design...
I know that the average joe don't know or care about that, they are just happy that the battery lasts longer and now there is strobe etc.

Icon rogues, who remembers those..


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## kramer5150 (Apr 15, 2010)

McAllan said:


> *ALL THOSE WHINING ABOUT THE RESISTOR AND DIRECT DRIVE
> *
> Has anyone actually tried some of the newer *M-series?* And especially the *M14* which should have addressed many if not all if the criticism.
> I agree that their past direct drives and partly their resistor driven as P14 are



Nope, I certainly would like to though. 4xeneloopAA + regulation:thumbsup:

Its not exported to the US... its an Eu / Au model only AFIAK.


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## jimmy1970 (Apr 15, 2010)

It is true that in Australia, the best lights available in retail stores are generally going to be LLs. I had a look at the P7 etc and agree that they are nicely made with a very smooth finish.

Really, they seem to be more of a casual users type of light. According to my local camping shop, they do sell well. After showing him a couple of my lights (Quark AA2 Tactical, Fenix TK20), he agreed that the Fenix & Quark lights would sell better because of the standard AA battery configuration - he couldn't believe how powerful they were on only 2 AA cells. People just don't know what their missing when shopping retail. They probably don't want to know - torches and just for looking at stuff in the dark, right?

James....


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## Jash (Apr 15, 2010)

jimmy1970 said:


> It is true that in Australia, the best lights available in retail stores are generally going to be LLs. I had a look at the P7 etc and agree that they are nicely made with a very smooth finish.
> 
> Really, they seem to be more of a casual users type of light. According to my local camping shop, they do sell well. After showing him a couple of my lights (Quark AA2 Tactical, Fenix TK20), he agreed that the Fenix & Quark lights would sell better because of the standard AA battery configuration - he couldn't believe how powerful they were on only 2 AA cells. People just don't know what their missing when shopping retail. They probably don't want to know - torches and just for looking at stuff in the dark, right?
> 
> James....




Then we MUST do what we can to educate our unenlightened fellow Aussies.

I am showing ALL my friends and such as come in contact with me, my Fenix's, Nitecore and Quark (sorry, it was your day off, will be in soon) and none of them can believe what they see.

We here in the land of Kevin get shafted when it comes to quality lighting. And to top it off, most people still think an Eveready Dolphin is a bright light.

ARRGGGHHHH!!! WE NEED MORE LIGHT!!


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## McAllan (Apr 15, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Didn't you read the article that I linked, the M7 _has_ two modes, just like M14?
> 
> Like you said, it would be odd if M14 circuit isn't the same....constant current mode that drops the output by design...
> I know that the average joe don't know or care about that, they are just happy that the battery lasts longer and now there is strobe etc.
> ...



Perhaps not enough I guess 
Agree the stepped constant current sounds odd... At least if it steps down after only a few minutes - what's the purpose of that?
The optimal would one level for when batteries are full and the last one(s) to preserve some light long after they're practically empty (at least with alkalines that is). 

But I still miss some information. Would be nice if there were user manuals online to study. The light manufacturers could really learn something from the general electronics manufacturers. 

Oh well. We'll see what the M14 will be like when I finally receive it.


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## McAllan (Apr 15, 2010)

kramer5150 said:


> Its not exported to the US... its an Eu / Au model only AFIAK.



Perhaps it's just because it is so new :thinking:
And since LL is by brand German (!= where made though) then it occurs naturally for new models to come here first. Just like when M*g comes with new models in the US first etc.

Give it a month or two and I'm sure it'll be available most places.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 15, 2010)

jimmy1970 said:


> Really, they seem to be more of a casual users type of light. According to my local camping shop, they do sell well. After showing him a couple of my lights (Quark AA2 Tactical, Fenix TK20), he agreed that the Fenix & Quark lights would sell better because of the standard AA battery configuration - he couldn't believe how powerful they were on only 2 AA cells. People just don't know what their missing when shopping retail.


I would prefer my P7 ran on AA's instead of AAA's but I'd want it to stay the same size or it would just be the even better but far less pocketable p14.

I have all three torches you mention, had them all for a while now and frankly the P7 does a better job for me than either of the others. Unfortunately what it doesn't do is fit in my pocket as well as the AA2 tactical and it doesn't have a clip (TK20 is useless in that respect in my environment with its silly un-reversable bezel up clip).

My AA2 tactical is quite pocketable since I now run mine off a single 17670 but it can't see anywhere near as far in either R2 or R5 versions though the spill is wider than the P7 on flood.

I will admit to some bias here. I admit I can't stand beams that have a separately defined bright ball shaped central spot surrounded by a large much dimmer spill. That very distinctly separate central spot is one of the half dozen or so reasons I hate my Fenix TK20 (and my quark's turbos are little better) and I'm guessing it's also why I'm finding my new Eagletac p20c2 MkII so damned great, it throws reasonably and the spot fades so smoothly and progressivley into the spill that it's not like having two completely separate torches in the one beam that so many othe rtorches feel like. Great beam shape on the P20c2MkII but it still can't compete for amount of light on the target with my P7 though. The LLP7 manages its light extremely well that it lords it all over many other fancier brands who have much higher lumens ratings. I've had to buy a lot of torches to come up with one that works as effectively in my environment.


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## McAllan (Apr 15, 2010)

McAllan said:


> Oh well. We'll see what the M14 will be like when I finally receive it.



Got it today :twothumbs
However there wasn't a user manual for the M14 
They said it was a "known issue" with the UK package. I don't see a need to return it but I will try to see if I can hunt one - either English or German - either is fine with me.
Hey I even got a very low twin prime serial number! :naughty:

Haven't done any long tests to can't comment on that yet.
Flood is very nice. Spot is... well very spotty  Approx. the size of the spot in Fenix TK20 but much more intense as it's lens can direct most of the spill too. Can be I do some measurements in the near future when I get some time.

UI is quite nice too and rather unique. It's sort of a mix between forward and reverse click. From off press to momentary on (with 130%) and you may morse with it if you want. Press and click and it'll turn up in 100% mode. Actually subjective there's only a very thin hair of difference between 100 and 130% - just as expected. While on you can soft click like a reverse click to advance modes. When in 100% mode and you press and hold (still a soft click) the light fades slowly in and out between 100 and 15% or so. Release at the wanted level.
To sum up. Practically all the positives of both forward and reverse click almost without their drawbacks - very nice!

It uses PWM regulation for dimming. But at a very high frequency (tint don't change like PD20). My guess would be around 5-10 kHz based on the sound I hear by lighting on a solar cell connected to some earphones.

Just for fun I bought the M1 too. A simple single CR123A based one with 100%, 15% and strobe - only a little bit longer than the Fenix PD20 (Q5). Despite being rated lower lumen wise it's noticeable brighter than my Q5 PD20 (or LD20 as they're practically the same). Again nice flood to a tight spot. Although not as tight as the M14 naturally but still no problem out throwing PD/LD20.
The M1 is a forward click. Wonder why they chose that. It would have benefited more from a reverse click as it's driver is like the typical driver without memory - short power interruption to move to next mode.
M1 uses PWM regulation too. Not as high frequency but IMHO high enough not to be an annoying (unlike Fenix LD01/05, MiniM*g Rebel and many DX lights etc.).

So far I'm quite impressed with the lights. My only fear is the lenses is made of plastic not glass - wonder how's the best way to clean them when they get too dirty.


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## Egsise (Apr 15, 2010)

How is the M14 circuit protected agains water, is the driver in the battery tube where the water can get?

Lo-hi sequence would've been so much better, now it's still blinding 130% as first mode..


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## McAllan (Apr 15, 2010)

Egsise said:


> How is the M14 circuit protected agains water, is the driver in the battery tube where the water can get?


It's in the tailcap (or actually in the battery assembly in the tail cap) which seems very water tight - even tried put my mouth to the button and blow while battery assembly was unscrewed. Don't know about the head though but the circuitry seems to have no problem keeping water out.


Egsise said:


> Lo-hi sequence would've been so much better, now it's still blinding 130% as first mode..


We always can find one thing we don't like about a particular light can't we? 

If it starts on low some people complaint they have to click like crazy to ramp it up. On high other people complaint they get blinded. I guess that's just one of those things which there's no right or wrong. It's pure personal preference (and if starting on high you can just cover it while turning on - either pointing it to your stomach or covering by hand).


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 15, 2010)

McAllan said:


> If it starts on low some people complaint they have to click like crazy to ramp it up. On high other people complaint they get blinded. I guess that's just one of those things which there's no right or wrong. It's pure personal preference (and if starting on high you can just cover it while turning on - either pointing it to your stomach or covering by hand).


High brightness first for me. I'm by no means typical of people on this site but I look at it this way - if I really NEED very bright light I'll most likely need it "right now". In other instances when I only need dim light I've usually got the extra time to root about navigating a sequence to get to it.

One the reasons why I find my Quark "regulars" to be such a pain in the posterior is that they start low when I'd prefer they started high. It's got a lot to do with the fact that at night I mostly use my torch in outdoor open spaces and I also use it regularly in daylight.


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## Egsise (Apr 15, 2010)

Erm, Quark, bezel loose it starts from moon mode, bezel tight it starts with turbo...


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## mcnair55 (Apr 15, 2010)

McAllan said:


> Got it today :twothumbs
> However there wasn't a user manual for the M14
> They said it was a "known issue" with the UK package. I don't see a need to return it but I will try to see if I can hunt one - either English or German - either is fine with me.
> Hey I even got a very low twin prime serial number! :naughty:
> ...



If you get by in German there is a forum on the makers site all about there lights including your new ones,appears to be people who use LL rather than the makers themselves.

http://www.world-of-moppel.com/LL_forum/viewforum.php?f=11


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## LeifUK (Apr 15, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Erm, Quark, bezel loose it starts from moon mode, bezel tight it starts with turbo...



+1. It also takes about 1 second to switch from moonlight to max when the bezzle is loose. And one really nice feature is that once you set the low mode, you can tighten the bezzle to switch to turbo, and loosen it to go back to the previously selected level. Quick, easy, nice. 



JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> One the reasons why I find my Quark "regulars" to be such a pain in the posterior is that they start low when I'd prefer they started high.



May I suggest using your hand to grip the torch.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 15, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Erm, Quark, bezel loose it starts from moon mode, bezel tight it starts with turbo...


Erm, being able to switch instantly to turbo might indeed assist in those situations where one wants immediate access to full bright but it does nothing to solve the issue that the low-to-high order of the brightness modes on my Quark regulars (and my fenixes and my P7) is a pain in the posterior for me.

Based on my own experiences I single out the Quark because it's bottom modes are so low and useless to me. As I mentioned in the post in question, I use my torches a lot in the daytime and the quarks are so low in brightness at the beginning that I very often can't tell whether they've come on or not. I don't want to look down the barrel so then I'll have to shine them on my hand as I step up the brightness just to see each brightness state so that I can count the levels to ensure I don't overstep into lollipop flashing modes and have to go half way round again. I find that annoying when having the order reversed would mean I have none of that malarky to worry about. 

My comment in that earlier post was designed to re-inforce a poster's comment that different people have different preferences when it comes to brightness setting order. I have my preference, I have my reasons, and no amount of condescending "erms" is are going to change that. 

The fact that the Quark has direct access to turbo notwithstanding, I prefer to ramp down in brightness, not up and anything that doesn't is less than fully effective for me. I have a lot of less than fully effective torches due to having to compromise on some issues to get access to certain other desireable features.


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## Egsise (Apr 15, 2010)

Yes it's often a matter of personal preference.
But still I don't understand why not use the Quark(and similar) with bezel tight. One click for turbo, one click off.

If I need lots of light from my Quark or Fenix, what do I do?
Start bezel loose, halp press through low-med-high-uups sos-start from low again-med-hi-oh yeah now i need to twist for turbo.

Or do I just tighten the bezel and click once....if I need less light I just loosen the bezel.


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## jimmy1970 (Apr 15, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> I will admit to some bias here. I admit I can't stand beams that have a separately defined bright ball shaped central spot surrounded by a large much dimmer spill. That very distinctly separate central spot is one of the half dozen or so reasons I hate my Fenix TK20 (and my quark's turbos are little better) and I'm guessing it's also why I'm finding my new Eagletac p20c2 MkII so damned great, it throws reasonably and the spot fades so smoothly and progressivley into the spill that it's not like having two completely separate torches in the one beam that so many othe rtorches feel like. Great beam shape on the P20c2MkII but it still can't compete for amount of light on the target with my P7 though. The LLP7 manages its light extremely well that it lords it all over many other fancier brands who have much higher lumens ratings. I've had to buy a lot of torches to come up with one that works as effectively in my environment.


My most favoured light for quality of beam would be my Surefire U2A. Nice hot spot centre with a very gradual spread to spill - just awesome (very similar to my Ra Clicky 140Cn).

James.....


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 15, 2010)

Egsise said:


> But still I don't understand why not use the Quark(and similar) with bezel tight. One click for turbo, one click off.


Because battery life often dictates that I'm going to have to work using the brightness level that's next underneath turbo and sometimes the actual situation means I might instead even want the one just futher underneath that.

yes, it's logical to assume I could simply count the "half presses" and be sure of where I am but if I can't see the light changining as I do I can't actually be sure that I've half clicked strongly enough. If I don't see light when I expect it my automatic reaction is to press again and that's why I often overstep into kiddyland flashing modes. I find this uncertainty to be exacerbated by the fact that, with the quarks I have, almost every one of them has a different amount of travel (and pressure) in the switch before it does the "half press" action so I just don't feel sure the click has registered unless I look. It might be dead easy if I aways used the same tailcap but I don't. Another factor that can make it difficult to operate just by counting clicks with my ones is that if one half presses too fast the torch won't actually step the brightness so the count is out.


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## Turbo DV8 (Apr 16, 2010)

GMLRS said:


> They (LED Lenser) just announced they have a 160 Lumens per watt LED. Just bought 2 Fenix LD20s, 2AA, 180 lumens. the new one is 205 or 210 lumens.
> 
> ITP A6 Polestar, Cree MC-E, 6xAA, 700 Lumens. 80 US$


 

Oh boy, the "lumens" game again! May I play? I bought an A6 Polestar at Fry's, which has the MCE Cree. I returned it because the non-adjustable beam favored spill over throw, and the over-abundant spill actually interfered with the eye's ability to see farther into the throw by causing the pupils to contract. Basically, the lights spill was blinding me, and this was immediately apparent when going back to the P7 and P14 on spot mode. Yes, the A6 Polestar showed quite a bit more light output in a ceiling bounce, but in actual use (my use) the "700 lumen" A6 was outdid by the "lowly couple-a-hundred lumen" LED Lenser P7 and P14.


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## Egsise (Apr 16, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> Because battery life often dictates that I'm going to have to work using the brightness level that's next underneath turbo and sometimes the actual situation means I might instead even want the one just futher underneath that.


That doesn't make any sense, LL P7 runtime is just a little over an hour, just like 2xAA Quarks and Fenixes.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 16, 2010)

Egsise said:


> That doesn't make any sense, LL P7 runtime is just a little over an hour, just like 2xAA Quarks and Fenixes.


None of the things I say seem to make much sense to you. I'm obviously not writing them clearly enough. I was not making a comparison between a led lenser and a quark and I wasn't particularly referring to an AA2 Quark either. 

What I was doing was referring to why the low to high brightness order of the quark regular is a pain in the posterior to me. It's a pain in the posterior because I don't like it. I only put up with them because I like a couple of the other features of the lights.

As to the battery life thing all I was doing was trying to give a simpletonian example of why there are times when switching directly to turbo mode is not a way that I can use to avoid using the part of the interface that I don't like. Here's a real world example from last week. This time just play along with what I write, don't make up your own scenario to try to work around it.

Let's say that I'm using my Quark for a job that's going to take an hour but I've only got enough battery charge left for half an hour on turbo. Since I carry no spare batteries on me I'm going to have to find a setting to make it last that hour and that's obviously not going to be the turbo setting. It means I'm going to have to use the "loose head" setting and go through the low to high sequence. I already told you I prefer high to low and don't like low to high and I've previously explained quite clearly one reason I personally don't like it. 

It's my preference. It's not something worthy of pages of justification, just my own personal preference. That's what a preference is, my personal feeling as to what I like best. You can't argue that, my personal preferences simply do not fall within your bailiwick.

As I said, and will now say again for clarity for anyone else still listening in on this banal to-ing and fro-ing between us, I was merely trying to re-inforce another poster's point that the light companies will hardly ever please everyone because some will want a low to high interface sequence and others will want high to low.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 16, 2010)

and I did actually have one perhaps more relevant comment to make on the brightness sequence order of the Led Lensers that follows on from a discussion I had in another thread.

Despite my preference for high to low, I do see one very important reason why LL should be low to high and it's to do wiht the fact that with the LLP7 you have to cycle through all the modes to get to the off setting.

In the case of the P7 (or at least my earlier model), as one switches it off, the last mode before off will always be high. High is usually much easier to see in daylight even in the flood mode. Flood mode on low in these torches is quite hard to see in daylight, sometimes even when looking across the lens.

If the order was reversed to have low as the last mode before off, I could imagine after using it in bright mode flood setting in DDaylight, that it might look as though you've clicked it off even though it may actually have only reached low mode.


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## Egsise (Apr 16, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> None of the things I say seem to make much sense to you. I'm obviously not writing them clearly enough. I was not making a comparison between a led lenser and a quark and I wasn't particularly referring to an AA2 Quark either.


To me your opinions are not consistent, you prefer LL P7 because it has hi-lo sequence.
Other light has high or low selecteable by twisting the head, you don't like it because you need the modes from somewhere between.
But there are no modes between Led Lensers high and low either.

Comparing apples to oranges and sheeps. :thinking:

Anyway I agree that too low low makes things overcomplicated, that's why I like Fenix modes better, the low is not too low.
And I like preset levels, that way you know the runtimes for sure, ramping to the desired output leaves you guessing the runtime.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 16, 2010)

Egsise said:


> To me your opinions are not consistent, you prefer LL P7 because it has hi-lo sequence.


Actually if you read my words as I wrote them, rather than just jumping in and responding to something you've imagined I'm thinking you'll see that my opinion is quite consistent in regards to high low switching.

to the contrary of what you assert, I never said I prefer my P7 because it has high low switching. That would be because it doesn't actually have high low switching. It's the first generation and switches low high.

In fact, I actually said that I don't like the low high aspect of my P7, nor my fenixes. I also said I singled out the quarks for special attention because they have additional much lower low modes than the others which cause me even more trouble when using in daylight.

here, read what the post said again, I've underlined the pertinent bits.....
 


JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> the low-to-high order of the brightness modes on my Quark regulars (and my fenixes and my P7) is a pain in the posterior for me.
> 
> Based on my own experiences I single out the Quark because it's bottom modes are so low and useless to me. As I mentioned in the post in question, I use my torches a lot in the daytime and the quarks are so low in brightness at the beginning that I very often can't tell whether they've come on or not.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 16, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Other light has high or low selecteable by twisting the head, you don't like it because you need the modes from somewhere between.


I do admit that I occasionally desire a low mode in addition to the very necessary bright and medium and I now actually have the perfect torch for that. It's called the Eagletac P20C2 MkII. It comes on in my choice of high or medium and for those very rare occasions that I truly need low I can grab it by a simple twist-untwist and I never ever have to progress through any carnival merrygoround blinkies to change brightness levels. It's Perfect. It even comes with a clip which so much seals the deal that my P7 now lays on the gunsafe for emergency only though let me be the first to say that even though the eagle is just perfect for my usage, the LLP7 still throws further and has a brighter spill than the eagle MkII with XP-G.


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## Egsise (Apr 16, 2010)

Oh sry, that explains a lot, the old P7's throw better than the new ones don't they?


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## McAllan (Apr 16, 2010)

Turbo DV8 said:


> Oh boy, the "lumens" game again! May I play? I bought an A6 Polestar at Fry's, which has the MCE Cree. I returned it because the non-adjustable beam favored spill over throw, and the over-abundant spill actually interfered with the eye's ability to see farther into the throw by causing the pupils to contract. Basically, the lights spill was blinding me, and this was immediately apparent when going back to the P7 and P14 on spot mode. Yes, the A6 Polestar showed quite a bit more light output in a ceiling bounce, but in actual use (my use) the "700 lumen" A6 was outdid by the "lowly couple-a-hundred lumen" LED Lenser P7 and P14.



Wrote it somewhere. It's the same with the TK40 (really no surprise as they're both MC-E). And you really don't need a lux meter to convince yourself or others that the P14/M14 easily out throws the TK40.
Just point the two lights at the same spot on the wall. Put an object in the front and it'll cast two shadows. You can easily see which light has the darkest shadow. And then I haven't even tried to taken the bright "blinding" spill into account.

I can find many great uses for the TK40. It's not a bad light. It's a great bicycle headlight, walk the dog light, urban exploring, general lighting when mains power is out etc.
On the other hand the M14 is really great too. A nice flood when you don't need a blinding hot spot. While still having access to really great throw.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 16, 2010)

Egsise said:


> the old P7's throw better than the new ones don't they?


I haven't had much of a look at the new ones but I do know that things were a bit variable with the old ones too. Some focussed well, some were over focussed and a number of them that I've seen don't pull forward far enough to get the spot focussed well. 

There are two things that limit the head movement forward on the first gen p7's (I don't know if it's the same for the next ones). First thing is the little block that's screwed to the heatsink. It runs up and down in a slot in the body of the head (well actually the slot runs up and down on the fixed block). It's this block that stops the head spinning. This block and its relationship with the slot milled in the head limits forward movement of the head.

Secondly, there is also a step on the end of the torch barrel near the heatsink that ultimately would limit forward movement of the head if the little block were not there.

As mentioned, in some cases the little block stops the head movement a ways short of full focus and that was the case with mine at first so I filed down the block and extened the slot in the head to the point that the barrel step became the limiting factor and my torch fousses a lot better. I'd estimate that it added about 25 yards to the throw on momentary turbo, maybe more. By allowing it to pull further forward the better focus also dealt with a slightly duller area within the centre of my hotspot. I also made a little transverse slot so I could lock the head in full focus.


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## McAllan (Apr 16, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Oh sry, that explains a lot, the old P7's throw better than the new ones don't they?



Are you confusing the SSC P7 LEDs (SSC's version of Cree MC-E - a multi die emitter) with LED Lenser P7? :thinking:
LED Lenser P7 is just a name for the light (it's not using a P7 LED)


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## Egsise (Apr 16, 2010)

No I don't mean SSC P7, I mean old Led lenser P7 throws better than the new Led lenser P7.
Lux readings and beamshots:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/238619


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## McAllan (Apr 16, 2010)

Ah, thanks for clarification. Wasn't aware that there was more than one version.


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## Egsise (Apr 16, 2010)

The version that I tested was version 3.1 according the manual.


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## garden (Apr 16, 2010)

No I don't mean SSC P7, I mean old Led lenser P7 throws better than the new Led lenser P7.
Lux readings and beamshots:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=238619

No, I do not believe that that is true. I think that the reviewer didn't fully tighten the head of both the lights. LL is trying to compete with the (debatably) more technologically advanced brands Fenix, Olight, Quark, and the rest, therefore I doubt they would actually reduce the output.


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## Egsise (Apr 16, 2010)

The output increases, but the focus doesn't seem to be as tight as with the old versions.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 16, 2010)

Egsise said:


> but the focus doesn't seem to be as tight as with the old versions.


that certainly right in terms of the few new versions ones I've seen beamshoots of. Those ones were not as tightly focussed as my old version was even before I "tuned" it.


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## McAllan (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*

Hi

You're probably just as curious as I am. So to satisfy my curiosity I took a look at the driver in the M14. And to satisfy yours I took some pictures of it.

So here goes:






From the positive side of the battery one lead goes to the driver and the other to the LED.
So the LED is driven by controlling the negative connection.





A close up on the driver.

Yeah I know. Now we'll a bunch of whiners crying that there's no inductor which means regulation is linear. 
True - BUT let's do a bit of calculating. Nominal voltage of 4 NiMH is 4.8 v. Nominal voltage of 1 full driven (1 A) LED is 3.7 v. The voltage difference is burnt of by heat in the driver:
3.7 / 4.8 = ~77 % efficiency.
That's actually pretty good and competes quite well with most inductor based ones. 
And we haven't even taken into account that the LED is pulsed and the pulses might even be more than 1 A which only raises efficiency by an unknown amount.
The bad news is however that with primary lithiums a bit too much power may be dissipated in the driver. Haven't tried that since I don't got any and I'm a big fan of (LSD) NiMH (almost guilt free lumens )

Haven't taken a further look at the had assembly so can't comment that much. But a look into the barrel from the battery side suggests fine cooling of the LED. The M14 doesn't get very hot with prolonged use (tried running it for 30 min) at least not with NiMH. NiMH doesn't heat very much at 1 amp so a great part of the heat is coming from the LED. And the size of the M14 body means a large area for dissipation. And the black color helps too (yes that's true!).


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## Ragiska (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*



McAllan said:


> The M14 doesn't get very hot with prolonged use (tried running it for 30 min) at least not with NiMH. NiMH doesn't heat very much at 1 amp so a great part of the heat is coming from the LED. And the size of the M14 body means a large area for dissipation. And the black color helps too (yes that's true!).



not getting hot is an excellent sign that there is a poor thermal path between the emitter and exterior.


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## Locoboy5150 (Apr 16, 2010)

Thanks for posting the images McAllan. It is nice to see LED Lenser including regulation in their new lights. I hope that they do the same with all their older models, starting with the X21, the one that really needs it.

Speaking of batteries, does LED Lenser still only recommend the use of alkaline cells exclusively as in the past or has that changed with the new M14?


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## McAllan (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*



Ragiska said:


> not getting hot is an excellent sign that there is a poor thermal path between the emitter and exterior.



Lets say the LED get full 1 A at 3.7 v. Yes it might be a little different with PWM and everything.
But to take that number that's 3.7 w of power that needs to be dissipated. Some of it goes as light and some as heat.
Even if we count 3 w is going to heat (we hope not  and I believe it's less by a good margin) then the light still has a very large body. It's _not_ like you small 1 cell light with limited surface - yes they get hot.
So please look at realities. If you've ever made som electronics yourself like small kits and so on you'll soon realize that such a large area for 3 w will mean very limited temperature rise.

Then another thing. No matter what if the LED delivers X joule as heat then X joules needs to be dissipated. 30 min is plenty of time for the heat to stabilize (rate of dissipation from LED = rate of dissipation from light body). If there was no heat path from the LED to the body then it'll be so hot that you could easily melt aluminum which clearly isn't the case.

So please get your basic physics in place and look at realities.

EDIT:
Btw. I didn't say it didn't get hot. Just that temperature rise wasn't a problem.

EDIT again:
Take a look at this CPF post showing the heat path of a P7. I believe it's more or less the same in M14. Might take a look one day.
None the less you can always argue more is better but it's quite sufficient for 3 w keeping the LED temperature down.


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## McAllan (Apr 16, 2010)

Locoboy5150 said:


> Thanks for posting the images McAllan. It is nice to see LED Lenser including regulation in their new lights. I hope that they do the same with all their older models, starting with the X21, the one that really needs it.
> 
> Speaking of batteries, does LED Lenser still only recommend the use of alkaline cells exclusively as in the past or has that changed with the new M14?



Well. I don't think they'll upgrade their older models. But we can hope they'll come out with an MX21 

That ought to be a DIY project. Don't know if there's room in the head for a whole lot of AMC7135 - 2 or 3 pr. LED according to taste. Load it with 4 NiMH and it'll shine 

Don't know if they still say exclusively alkaline. As said earlier there's no manual with the UK packaging(!) 
But wouldn't surprise me. But I really don't see a problem. 4 NiMH is as said 4.8 v which is the voltage of 4 alkalines after some use. My only suspect is that lithiums _may _have too high voltage and so cause more heat in the driver. I believe the new NiZn batteries are a no go though as they're even a little higher (to my memory don't count me on it).


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## Ragiska (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*

and please check your thermodynamics for a led on a small pedestal.


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## McAllan (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*



Ragiska said:


> and please check your thermodynamics for a led on a small pedestal.



It's no worse than all those tiny waffers. And still it does not change a thing.
Look at this post for a P7. It's about 1 cm or less. Absolute no problem to dissipate 3 w sufficiently. PERIOD
Of course there'll be a little more thermic resistance compared if it was flat against the larger area but that should not translate to any increase in temperature which should be alarming by any means.

Fair enough if you don't like the light. But please either just say that or come with some real critics instead of trolling.


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## Ragiska (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*



McAllan said:


> It's no worse than all those tiny waffers. And still it does not change a thing.
> Look at this post for a P7. It's about 1 cm or less. Absolute no problem to dissipate 3 w sufficiently. PERIOD
> Of course there'll be a little more thermic resistance compared if it was flat against the larger area but that should not translate to any increase in temperature which should be alarming by any means.
> 
> Fair enough if you don't like the light. But please either just say that or come with some real critics instead of trolling.


how about objective observations instead of blind fanboyism?

the heat flux of their pedestal design is approximately 50% worse than a conventional heatsink design. alternatively, a conventional design is 100% more effective.


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## McAllan (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*



Ragiska said:


> how about objective observations instead of blind fanboyism?



I could say the opposite about you.



Ragiska said:


> the heat flux of their pedestal design is approximately 50% worse than a conventional heatsink design. alternatively, a conventional design is 100% more effective.



It's still quite sufficient for 3 w so what's your problem? *You don't need a 0.001 C/W heat sink for a 3 w LED.* 

Unbelievable :shakehead


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## Ragiska (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*

try measuring the temp of the led itself after having been ran for a while in LL's little oven. 

hint: it can easily reach >=130°F


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## McAllan (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*



Ragiska said:


> try measuring the temp of the led itself after having been ran for a while in LL's little oven.
> 
> hint: it can easily reach >=130°F



And you did measure it? No of course you haven't :thumbsdow

I did a test. Ran it for 15 minutes which should be enough to reach it's max temperature for a given body temperature. Not holding it and room temperature is here 25 C.
OK, ran it for 15 minutes and while on unscrewed the head. Turned it off and as quickly as possible I pointed my Fluke 561 IR thermometer direct at the LED and it read 40 °C (104 °F). By no means objective in any way. And even less Quarks or whatever you like - even holding it in your hand.
And yes - it has same temperature above as under - in fact if there's a difference it should be hotter above as that side is away from heat sink.
So come again


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## McAllan (Apr 16, 2010)

And especially for you, Ragiska.
It probably should be bended in neon that the reason to turn off the LED and then do the reading if because the extremely bright light will give false readings. And from off to measuring wasn't more than 1/4 of a second - not long enough for the surface to cool anything significantly.


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## Ragiska (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*



McAllan said:


> And you did measure it? No of course you haven't :thumbsdow



i have personally measured 138°F on the T7


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## McAllan (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*



Ragiska said:


> i have personally measured 138°F on the T7



Can't speak of that. Only the M14 
Unfortunately the plastics is secured with some torx screws and I don't have a torx that small so we can't take a look at what's under there yet.

138 F sounds a little on the high side. With a junction to solder side thermal path of 8 C/W according to data sheet that translates to a junction temperature of ~180 F. But as said earlier the 3 w heat dissipation is on the high side. Could be interesting to know it more exact for and XR-E run at 1 A (or perhaps I've just not read enough in the data sheet). And then there's also the issue of we don't know how much hotter the over side of the LED is compared to the under side. One thing for sure is that if temperature is different then it's hotter in a non ventilated area as there's not a heat sink at that side.
So yes it sound a bit on the high side. But still well within allowable limits according to data sheet as I see it.


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## DM51 (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*

Too much bickering here... keep it civil please...


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## Egsise (Apr 16, 2010)

> In addition to the various modes that will be described later still, the M7 has two modes cross-energy programs, from Zweibrüder as "Energy Saving Mode" and "constant current mode" means. In the latter, the lamp starts with maximum brightness, which remains constant for a few minutes and falls in the next few minutes to 60 percent of the maximum brightness. These 60 percent remain set until the batteries are empty. In this program, the brightness is regulated only through the built-in temperature-control unit. In the energy saving program to start the lamp behaves exactly as though the brightness is turned down to 50 percent here and 25 minutes to 15 percent.


McAllan, could you do a runtime graph with luxmeter, so that we would know is the M14 circuit similar as in M7?


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## McAllan (Apr 16, 2010)

Egsise said:


> McAllan, could you do a runtime graph with luxmeter, so that we would know is the M14 circuit similar as in M7?



Sorry I don't have the facilities to do an extended test and dedicated run time graph.
But I have played a little with my luxmeter while running it for the 15 and 30 minutes. And it does indeed seem to be the same behavior as the M7. That is for the first 5 minutes or so the light is a little brighter and then gradually fades a little where it stabilizes - the "constant current" mode. A quick on/off and it's back up to "normal". Even did that about halfway for the warm up for the temperature measurement.

Yes it's beyond me too to have a "constant current" mode that fades a little after some minutes of powered on. But the positive side is that unless you have a luxmeter you won't notice it. IMHO it had been better just to start at the "little lower stabilized" level. Then the "130% turbo touch" would also make more sense.

I don't say it's perfect. But none the less it's still a great improvement in the right direction over a simple resistor


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*



Ragiska said:


> not getting hot is an excellent sign that there is a poor thermal path between the emitter and exterior.


looks like all my Quark turbos have a poor thermal path then.

Then again if anything gets only so hot that it still doesn't affect the operation of the torch then I guess it must be just fine so LL probably does the whole design thing better since none of mine have ever been detrimentally affected by heat.


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## Egsise (Apr 16, 2010)

McAllan said:


> I don't say it's perfect. But none the less it's still a great improvement in the right direction over a simple resistor


Circuit that mimics a direct driven light...

Thanks for your tests!


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 16, 2010)

From my perspective as an Aussie bushie, it's an added level of complexity to provide a feature I just don't need.

Personally, I think the best "improvement" to the line that LL could have made would have been to change the instruction manual (and maybe anything else really truly necessary) to "permit" the use of NiMH and leave it at that.

The old P7 performs superbly on NiMH with a flat enough brightness curve to satisfy most non tech-head users like me who judge a torch by the light out the end rather than graphs.


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## Bullzeyebill (Apr 16, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> From my perspective as an Aussie bushie, it's an added level of complexity to provide a feature I just don't need.
> 
> Personally, I think the best "improvement" to the line that LL could have made would have been to change the instruction manual (and maybe anything else really truly necessary) to "permit" the use of NiMH and leave it at that.
> 
> The old P7 performs superbly on NiMH with a flat enough brightness curve to satisfy most non tech-head users like me who judge a torch by the light out the end rather than graphs.



+1. A lot of us CPF'ers tend to get caught up in the technical aspects of lights, and how this feature is better than the other, but when it comes right down to it, it is the user who needs to be satisfied with his or her light for the applications they need it for. One of our early modders/sellers, Wayne of Electrolumens, has always believed that the direct driven light is the most practical light for people who need and use light on a daily basis, and who are not interested in "features". 

Bill


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## don.gwapo (Apr 16, 2010)

Bullzeyebill said:


> +1. A lot of us CPF'ers tend to get caught up in the technical aspects of lights, and how this feature is better than the other, but when it comes right down to it, it is the user who needs to be satisfied with his or her light for the applications they need it for. One of our early modders/sellers, Wayne of Electrolumens, has always believed that the direct driven light is the most practical light for people who need and use light on a daily basis, and who are not interested in "features".
> 
> Bill


 
I agree with you on that. I think LL lights is for the "massess". All their lights are powered by ordinary, easy to find, get it anywhere batteries. And most of their light is just high and low and some with turbo with no strobe or sos whatsoever. Well, except for the M1, M14. LL is just keeping their lights as simple as possible for ordinary people. Not to mention they have a good optics.


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## Turbo DV8 (Apr 16, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> There are two things that limit the head movement forward on the first gen p7's (I don't know if it's the same for the next ones). First thing is the little block that's screwed to the heatsink. It's this block that stops the head spinning.


 
Both my new P7 and P14, and several others I have tried, all allowed their heads to spin. There were minor differences in where the head stopped, affecting the throw a small bit.


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## Turbo DV8 (Apr 16, 2010)

*Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver*



Ragiska said:


> The heat flux of their pedestal design is approximately 50% worse than a conventional heatsink design. alternatively, a conventional design is 100% more effective.


 
The speed rating of a 100 MPH tire is 50% worse than the speed rating of a 200 MPH tire, but on a car that tops out at 90 MPH, what's the difference?


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## McAllan (Apr 17, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Circuit that mimics a direct driven light...
> 
> Thanks for your tests!



No it's not 
Only to a very small degree. As said haven't done an extended run time test. But the little lower level is in the constant current mode supposed to stay there until batteries are depleted - just look at the fine mini review of the M7. Only then it'll fade out for good.

A full driven LED need as said 3.7 V according to data sheet. Then we need to take a minimum drop in the driver into account. Minimum voltage drop in the driver is probably in the order of 100-300 mV - an AMC7135 is 100 mV is I remember correct and it's a FET transistor with a circuit. Believe a FET driver here too - a bipolar would have a too big drop. That means it'll start to fade out for good when there's around 3.8-4.0 V available. Divided by four (as there's 4 cells) it translates to 0.95-1 v pr. cell. That's means in case of NiMH it'll start to fade after the constant constant current when cells are for all purposes empty. Like 98-99% or so if you calculate with an end voltage of 0.9 V.

The economy mode however mimics a direct drive if we are to believe the website. But a direct drive that get reset with a very fast on/off. Wonder who wants to use that mode :thinking: None the less who do not want "fresh batteries" in an instant just buy do a quick off/on?


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## Egsise (Apr 17, 2010)

To me the runtime of M7 looks very similar what runtime P7 with NiMH has.
It drops 25-35% in the first few minutes but stays quite flat until the cells are empty.
So the improvements are just the flashing modes.


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## McAllan (Apr 17, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> looks like all my Quark turbos have a poor thermal path then.
> 
> Then again if anything gets only so hot that it still doesn't affect the operation of the torch then I guess it must be just fine so LL probably does the whole design thing better since none of mine have ever been detrimentally affected by heat.



How big are they? Especially the AA has more surface area.
There's two very big considerations here and their ability to dissipate heat. Size and color. Black color radiates heat a lot faster than silver. Can't seem to find a good description online which I know some of you will demand. But take two identical objects except the color one white and one black. Heat them to same temperature in an oven. You'll notice the black one heats up faster. Wait for the white one to heat up too. Now take them out. Surprisingly you'll notice the black cools faster down too (yes we've even done that experiment when I was a school boy and seen it in a science quiz on TV - should be proof enough).

A light as the TK40 doesn't get objectionable hot either - when run on NiMH to eliminate most heat from the cells themselves. But it too got a very large surface for dissipation and radiation.
And the pattern is the same for LD20. It too has no trouble staying reasonable cool because of surface and probably also surface color. Where as my 1 cell stainless lights get on the edge of insanely hot if standing by themselves. A smaller silver colored surface just is inferior radiating heat compared to a larger black one.



Turbo DV8 said:


> The speed rating of a 100 MPH tire is 50% worse than the speed rating of a 200 MPH tire, but on a car that tops out at 90 MPH, what's the difference?



Exactly my point. Good analogy


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## McAllan (Apr 17, 2010)

Egsise said:


> To me the runtime of M7 looks very similar what runtime P7 with NiMH has.
> It drops 25-35% in the first few minutes but stays quite flat until the cells are empty.
> So the improvements are just the flashing modes.



But the P7 is not as flat as the M7 which you can see by his lux reading stabilizes dead flat. But you're right in reality it's not a big difference except for one thing - the P7 doesn't ramp up again if turned off then on halfway in a run time test.
And I'll bet the M7/M14 has way better regulation on alkaline compared to their older siblings P7/P14.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 17, 2010)

McAllan said:


> How big are they? Especially the AA has more surface area.


Yes, they both have plenty of surface area. My 2x123 turbo doesn't get hot and it's smaller than a P7 so I'm not at all surprised that my P7 doesn't get over hot given its even larger size and lower lumens count. To do as good a job as the usual torches the P7 simply doesn't have to push out huge lumens and the heat it does put out is obviously adequately dissipated or the torches would exhibit problems which they simply don't.

I'm quite satisfied that the designers have done all that's necessary to adequately handle the amount heat their led arrangement puts out. As expressed, there'd be no point having a two hundred mile an hour tyre on your one hundred mile an hour torch..........


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## Egsise (Apr 17, 2010)

McAllan said:


> But the P7 is not as flat as the M7 which you can see by his lux reading stabilizes dead flat. But you're right in reality it's not a big difference except for one thing - the P7 doesn't ramp up again if turned off then on halfway in a run time test.
> And I'll bet the M7/M14 has way better regulation on alkaline compared to their older siblings P7/P14.


In reality you don't turn your light off and on every 5 minutes to get 30% more output.
You can bet too that when regulation is flatter, the runtime will be shorter.

Hey, what happened to warranty?
http://www.lovingoutdoors.co.uk/out...-lenser-m7-micro-processor-led-torch-650.html


> 12 Months Manufacturers Warranty


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## McAllan (Apr 17, 2010)

Egsise said:


> In reality you don't turn your light off and on every 5 minutes to get 30% more output.
> You can bet too that when regulation is flatter, the runtime will be shorter.



Of course. 30% you won't notice.
My point is that the initial drop at 5-7 min is programmed and after that in constant current mode it stays stable and flat until batteries are empty. After that it'll fade out like a direct drive. Of course with NiMH you should turn it off at that point in order not to push the weakest cell into reverse but with alkaline you'll have some light for quite some time.



Egsise said:


> Hey, what happened to warranty?
> http://www.lovingoutdoors.co.uk/out...-lenser-m7-micro-processor-led-torch-650.html



Guess I've already invalidated mine  No big deal. Never seems to have use for it anyway. 
Now you don't tell where you live but in EU you have 6 months of warranty then 18 months of reclamation right by law. That is 0-6 month you have it repaired/switched without question. 6-24 month and you have to "prove" that you've not caused it to malfunction and that the error is not ordinary wear (like a bulb burnout etc.) - in practice not very hard to prove. The deal is between you and the retailer you've bought it from - no matter what warranty the factory decides to offer too. If he offers none then the warranty is on the dealer alone - which of course means that if he finds an item to malfunction too much and he can't get the cost covered by the factory then he stop selling that item.
So actually the 12 months factory warranty is better than required by law. Don't know if it has been better in the past if that's what you mean.


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## JCD (Apr 17, 2010)

Egsise said:


> In reality you don't turn your light off and on every 5 minutes to get 30% more output.
> You can bet too that when regulation is flatter, the runtime will be shorter.
> 
> Hey, what happened to warranty?
> ...



From Coast's Web site:

*Lifetime Guarantee*

COAST guarantees its COAST knives, tools and COAST LED Lenser Lights to be free of defects in materials and workmanship for the life of the original purchaser. …​
It appears that the retailer to which you linked made an error. It happens.


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## jupello (Apr 17, 2010)

Egsise said:


> In reality you don't turn your light off and on every 5 minutes to get 30% more output.
> You can bet too that when regulation is flatter, the runtime will be shorter.



I bet that turning the light off and then right back on again would not work. 
To me the higher output at the start of the graph looks like little added output that you might get with fresh/rested batteries while the battery voltage is high.
For example I don't think people that use Nitecore D10 with 14500's try to switch the light on/off in hopes for max output again after the light has faded a bit 

Seems that the discussion about Led Lenser's never change in here, always the same topics come up again and again.. even Marduke seems to have gotten tired of it


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## McAllan (Apr 17, 2010)

jupello said:


> I bet that turning the light off and then right back on again would not work.
> To me the higher output at the start of the graph looks like little added output that you might get with fresh/rested batteries while the battery voltage is high.
> For example I don't think people that use Nitecore D10 with 14500's try to switch the light on/off in hopes for max output again after the light has faded a bit



That's not the case with M14/M7. *Is by design*. Yeah you can discuss if it's stupid, fine with me as that's a pure personal point of view. At least if people will acknowledge that and accept the facts - only thereafter we can discuss the subjective personal opinions.
The drop after 5-7 minuttes or actually it fades slowly from 5 to 7 minutes. It's *NOT *caused of battery voltage dropping. With 4 NiMH voltage is *way* over the supply voltage if the LED. With a LiIon in the *D10* the DROP is because* it's direct drive* - which is is NOT in the LL. In the LL it'll go direct drive only when battery voltage drops so much they're depleted anyway. You cannot direct drive a 4 cell light with NiMH or alkaline (except the weak button cells) without ruin the LED.



jupello said:


> Seems that the discussion about Led Lenser's never change in here, always the same topics come up again and again.. even Marduke seems to have gotten tired of it


It's because there's a lot who has pre opinions regarding past lights that they assume is also true for the new M series. If only they would either open their eyes or at least state that their "knowledge" is from past lights. Geez it's a wonder how new inventions ever manages getting past the inventors garage in this world.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 17, 2010)

JCD said:


> From Coast's Web site:
> *Lifetime Guarantee*
> 
> COAST guarantees its COAST knives, tools and COAST LED Lenser Lights to be free of defects in materials and workmanship for the life of the original purchaser. …​It appears that the retailer to which you linked made an error. It happens.


I'm not sure that I understand the relationship of the American "Coast" company to the German "Zweibruder" company who claim to design and make Led Lenser torches. Does anyone here actually know?

Suffice to say that just because the American firm Coast warrants for "life" the Led Lenser items they retail might not necessarily mean that a seller in another country such as the UK (where "lovingoutdoors" seems to be) will give the same warranty period to those to whom it sells Led Lenser torches. Additionally, I'm guessing that both are likely to be a separate issue to whether Led Lenser torches carry some sort of manufacturer warranty to back up the retailer warranty.


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## McAllan (Apr 17, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> I'm not sure that I understand the relationship of the American "Coast" company to the German "Zweibruder" company who claim to design and make Led Lenser torches. Does anyone here actually know?
> 
> Suffice to say that just because the American firm Coast warrants for "life" the Led Lenser items they retail might not necessarily mean that a seller in another country such as the UK (where "lovingoutdoors" seems to be) will give the same warranty period to those to whom it sells Led Lenser torches. Additionally, I'm guessing that both are likely to be a separate issue to whether Led Lenser torches carry some sort of manufacturer warranty to back up the retailer warranty.



Agree it's "funny" that LL is Coast in US. Perhaps problem with the name? Or they might have outsourced distribution etc. and the distributor wan't their name to be on the lights? Pure guess work.

Anyway the warranty issue may also very well be that they've figured they might have been a little too generous in the past.
Even a company as MagLite does not have as much warranty on the LED lights as on the incan. In fact even write that their warranty does not cover LED burnout or LED module failure 
They do however also state that this "warranty" in no way reduces the warranty they (or your dealer) are required to maintain by law. That is in EU it's no problem to have a failure covered by warranty/reclamation right within the first 24 months. All you have to do is state that it has just been used as an ordinary flashlight not being on for 24/7 (or else failure is not because of natural wear for a LED light). That should be rather easy.


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## DM51 (Apr 17, 2010)

jupello said:


> Seems that the discussion about Led Lenser's never change in here, always the same topics come up again and again.. *even Marduke seems to have gotten tired of it*


Hmm... actually, I don't think he has...


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 17, 2010)

McAllan said:


> They do however also state that this "warranty" in no way reduces the warranty they (or your dealer) are required to maintain by law. That is in EU it's no problem to have a failure covered by warranty/reclamation right within the first 24 months. All you have to do is state that it has just been used as an ordinary flashlight not being on for 24/7 (or else failure is not because of natural wear for a LED light). That should be rather easy.


I forgot that UK is part of the EU.

In Australia we have some state sponsored consumer protection laws but nothing so well spelled out as those you describe in the EU. Ours relate more to goods being fit for the purpose sold for a "reasonable time" given the nature of the goods and some other factors. Very smudged at the edges.

and I did wonder if it was only Mr Marduke who got tired.


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## jupello (Apr 17, 2010)

McAllan said:


> That's not the case with M14/M7. *Is by design*.


Oh.. wonder why they made it that way, surely there must be some reason? 



McAllan said:


> It's because there's a lot who has pre opinions regarding past lights that they assume is also true for the new M series. If only they would either open their eyes or at least state that their "knowledge" is from past lights. Geez it's a wonder how new inventions ever manages getting past the inventors garage in this world.


Yep, I've noticed that too 



DM51 said:


> Hmm... actually, I don't think he has...



Haha, but it's already page 4 on this LL thread and no single post by him :laughing:


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## DM51 (Apr 17, 2010)

jupello said:


> Haha, but it's already page 4 on this LL thread and no single post by him :laughing:


You'd be surprised...


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## Egsise (Apr 17, 2010)

Mods see IP's...:tinfoil:


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## mcnair55 (Apr 17, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> I forgot that UK is part of the EU.
> 
> In Australia we have some state sponsored consumer protection laws but nothing so well spelled out as those you describe in the EU. Ours relate more to goods being fit for the purpose sold for a "reasonable time" given the nature of the goods and some other factors. Very smudged at the edges.
> 
> and I did wonder if it was only Mr Marduke who got tired.




Forget about EU warranty claims each country is different when it should be the same,lots of cheating going on here.UK you get a standard 12 month ticket on most items.If you buy from Aldi/lidl supermarkets in the UK you get a standard German 3 year ticket.

In the UK if item proves faulty within the first 30 days,it is the consumers choice for a refund/replace or repair,after that it becomes the sellers choice.


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## JCD (Apr 17, 2010)

Deleted


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## Turbo DV8 (Apr 17, 2010)

Directed to anyone who might be familiar with the M7 and/or M14...

My P14 has a wider beam than my P7 at full flood, but at the expense of a mildly annoying ring in the P14's beam, which is compeltely absent on the P7. The review for the M7 states that it's beam floods wider than the P7. My question is, does the M7 have that concentric ring in flood mode that my P14 does? Same question applies to the M14. I love my P14, but it irks me slightly that it's flood is not that flawless wall of light that my P7 provides, albeit slightly smaller diameter.


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## Turbo DV8 (Apr 18, 2010)

Anyone in the US even know where to buy a M7 or M14 in the US? I can't find any available.


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## tigervn (Apr 19, 2010)

Turbo DV8 said:


> Anyone in the US even know where to buy a M7 or M14 in the US? I can't find any available.


In the US, LL M series comming soon. M7 use AAA and M7R use 18650 bat.
http://www.coastportland.com/thumbnails.php?catid=12&mastCat=3


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## don.gwapo (Apr 19, 2010)

Check this: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3068097&postcount=1. Somebody have it already since last year.


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## wild thing (Aug 20, 2014)

*4 Years later (2014) !!! *and was just wondering peoples opinions on new LL torches? X series and .2's

Personally, I've had several Led lensers in the past, the Police Tech, P14, original M14, and now I have the new M14 (2014 updated version) and think its a great torch when in use. I especially like how well they throw and its brightness. I also purchased the new Nitecore EA41 a few weeks ago, and even though its rated to be 960 lumen compared to 300 of M14, the M14 doesn't seem to be that far behind in terms of brightness (by eye)

Also, I've found Led lensers aftercare support to be excellent. I inquired about a simple O-ring replacement, and they sent me a complete tail cap with battery cage straight away as the solution. No questions asked, Nice... Ive also had dealings with them in past, and they sent me a holster free of charge. All in all excellent


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## ven (Aug 20, 2014)

The latest lenser i have is the t7.2,find it a great light,like the lockable head so no movement on the zoom. 5yr warranty and the one time i needed it(few year back with t7 switch ) i got a free part sent out and received next day. Its took me longer to receive an email off fenix about a faulty e25 head(1 week for reply and 3 weeks on and still waiting for part) and as for klarus..........wow it took relentless emails to eventually getting one back a month later. Required a clip and in short would not send,told me of a shop/dealer in UK , £6 for clip and £4 delivery(about $16 total) for a p1a clip that snapped in 1st week ..........needless to say its my 1st and last of that brand,once bitten....

Everyone has different experiences,there are better flashlights,however not always better CS when needed..........just my experiences(so far)


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## mcnair55 (Aug 20, 2014)

ven said:


> The latest lenser i have is the t7.2,find it a great light,like the lockable head so no movement on the zoom. 5yr warranty and the one time i needed it(few year back with t7 switch ) i got a free part sent out and received next day. Its took me longer to receive an email off fenix about a faulty e25 head(1 week for reply and 3 weeks on and still waiting for part) and as for klarus..........wow it took relentless emails to eventually getting one back a month later. Required a clip and in short would not send,told me of a shop/dealer in UK , £6 for clip and £4 delivery(about $16 total) for a p1a clip that snapped in 1st week ..........needless to say its my 1st and last of that brand,once bitten....
> 
> Everyone has different experiences,there are better flashlights,however not always better CS when needed..........just my experiences(so far)



Led Lenser the worlds best seller and thanks Mr Ven,very pleased with my 7.2,makes a great farm building checker at dusk.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Aug 20, 2014)

well, four years on and a message comes to my email that someone has restarted this thread so I thought I'd come on over and see what's what.

Since I commented four years ago some things have changed, some things have stayed the same. I've tried a few different torches in the intervening years, here's a little list of what's happened to them all:

Eagletac P20C2 mkII- nice and bright and easy to use but the beam is not sharp enough to cut through fog or smoke and its contacts in the head require almost constant cleaning. A torch guaranteed to let you down the moment you really need it. You're fired.

Nitecore D10 - for around the house jobs was ok but failed early - You're fired.

Nitecore EA1 - Was very useful for working in the shed on cars etc but always found it turned on in my pocket and does odd things when battery gets a little low - You're fired.

Quark Turbo C2 - Still in my pocket for everyday use but the fact that it's regulated is very frustrating. As with most regulated torches there's very little time to indicate battery is low enough to shut off without warning. Dangerous and drives me mad and if it wasn't for the ease of fitment into my pocket it would be fired just because of that issue.

Led Lenser P4 RFS - sitting on my desk inside for fiddly jobs on electronics etc. Love the instant change to flood. Not very bright though.

Led Lenser P14 - Used three or four times a week. Huge battery life, great spot beam, I've used it to find burglars, shoot foxes, find horses and a bunch of other stuff. Still running on Duracell alkalines but only because I've never come across a good set of D cell rechargeables where I live. Had to cover it in grip tape cos it's a slippery thing without it, especially out in storms when wet.

Led Lenser P7 - I still use it multiple times every night. It has never failed or even flickered, great spot beam, very useful flood, I've stuck grip-tape around it to solve the slipperiness problem. This torch has survived work during floods, fires, car crashes and all sorts of real life dramas and if I know I need something totally reliable it's the one I grab. It gives you a very long time of indication that it's time for a battery change so you are never stuck with it going dark in the middle of its job so it's a very safe torch. I would still prefer a screw head adjustment rather than the push pull but that's about it, no other complaints. If the torch wasn't so fat it would be in my pocket day and night in preference to any other torch. It has now worked perfectly for about five years on nothing other than rechargeable batteries.

My tastes in torches have "matured", I now know that regulated torches are completely wrong for my real world uses. The sudden shut off of light can leave you stuck in the dark in the middle of nowhere and most of the "modes" are pointless gimmickry. On the other hand the supposed gradual reduction in brightness of a non-regulated Led Lenser torch has never presented any problematic issue to me, it's only when they get to near end of battery life that my lensers stop giving more light than I need.

I have come to the conclusion that my old well worn P7 is the most useful, reliable and practical torch I own. The best by a mile.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 20, 2014)

Ive got a couple of the V2 UV light models as well as the P3AFS and a few H,P,T7 series lights and a F1. Other than having to clean the pocket lint out of the head from time to time, they've been great lights. I wish that they were double A powered instead of triple A, but both cell types are cheap when purchased in bulk via the wholesale club.

The only Led Lenser light I now carry is the P3AFS clipped to my belt loop since it's small enough to be out of the way, yet gives off enough light for most close at hand tasks. Otherwise, my Surefire P6 with a 3 mode LED drop-in is my go to light.

Once one of the 7 series lights die, I'll use the body for a host and stick an 18650 inside with a XM-G led.


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## brickfollett (Aug 20, 2014)

reeceh said:


> Hey guys im from australia,
> 
> im wanting to get maybe an p7 or m14, ive been told the m14 is better however i wana know is it much better or not worth it, or is there an even better led in the same price range??



Always been impressed with the leatherman company, I own 3 of their multitools, wave, squirt and style PS. But I've always been disappointed with the specs of the Lenser...


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## breinrules (Aug 21, 2014)

I do hope they put the led lenser m3r circuitry into the a2 body and they have 
a serious contenter in the aaa category.


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## mcnair55 (Aug 21, 2014)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> well, four years on and a message comes to my email that someone has restarted this thread so I thought I'd come on over and see what's what.
> 
> Since I commented four years ago some things have changed, some things have stayed the same. I've tried a few different torches in the intervening years, here's a little list of what's happened to them all:
> 
> ...



It must be an age thing the sudden shut off is a real pain in the butt but LL 7.2 in my case is a real favourite and very much like your P7.


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## Kyrra (Sep 7, 2014)

I was looking at the M7R and noticed that there seems to be a 2.0 edition of it (though LL doesn't seem to be advertising it). On their main site ( http://www.ledlenserusa.com/880010.html ) it lists the M7R has being 400 lm, but everywhere that sells it in the USA lists it as being 210 or 220 lm. But searching around, there are stores in the UK and AU that have it listed as 400 lumens. Looks like a newer model of the M7R is on its way out?


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## Kyrra (Sep 9, 2014)

I followed up with LED Lenser asking about the M7R. Their customer support responded with the following:



> Thank you for contacting Leatherman Tool Group, Inc. The M7R has in fact been updated, even though it does not have the .2 on the end. It was what we call a running change, meaning we updated it without changing the name or branding of any kind. I am sorry for the confusion! At this time, we do not have an estimated time that the M7R will be available again in the US.


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## CelticCross74 (Sep 9, 2014)

Ive got a rack of Coast and LL lights and there is a lot to be said for the focusing feature. That being said the products offered 2012-current from any of the mainstays like Fenix are just flat out better buys. You want 400 lumens and an excellent beam for near and far pick up a Fenix TK15. The most convincing 400 lumens Ive ever seen lol. The step down levels are solid as well and it is cheaper than LL. Disappointed in LL last couple years they seem to have dropped the ball....


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## mcnair55 (Sep 10, 2014)

CelticCross74 said:


> Ive got a rack of Coast and LL lights and there is a lot to be said for the focusing feature. That being said the products offered 2012-current from any of the mainstays like Fenix are just flat out better buys. You want 400 lumens and an excellent beam for near and far pick up a Fenix TK15. The most convincing 400 lumens Ive ever seen lol. The step down levels are solid as well and it is cheaper than LL. Disappointed in LL last couple years they seem to have dropped the ball....



As an avid Fenix fan and collector i still find LL to have better buys in some lights over Fenix.A good solid usable light is the 7.2 runs for hours and hours and with no sudden switch off in power.LL as the worlds best seller means you also have an easier task of picking one up at a discount.


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## colight (Sep 10, 2014)

LL and surefire produce good torch,love them,but a bit expensive for me.


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## 500Nitro (Sep 17, 2014)

The Led Lenser P 7.2 is a great everyday torch. No shut off as stated, light levels just dropped. Brighter up close than my old P 17 but over distance even the old P 17 outshines it on spot (I'm assuming this is because of the size f the reflector).

Took the P 7.2 an the P 17 hunting. Both were great. Spotted a fox at 150 meters and was able to shoot offhand while holding the torch (no mount as of yet) and dropped it. No complaints about the torch as a every day carry! The holster it comes in is great! Bit fat for a pocket but just loop it on your belt and your good to go! Make sure your t-shirt covers it and you get no questions.

As a throw light I was looking at the p 17.2 but decided on a thrunite catapult v5! No complaints there! Can't really justify to the wife the spending of $600-800.00 on the x-21 series but at $200.00 she's a beauty.

I'm still a led lenser fan! Can't carry the v5 around but the smaller torches I would still say that led lenser have descent options and they are reliable (in my experience, you do hear horror stories everywhere though).

Anyway depending on what you want it for, they are a great option if you just want a run of the mill torch. Yes there are torches out there that are better in certain respects. Total output, throw, focus etc... Over all though led lenser do everything well, nothing spectacular. I hope that makes sense.

P 7.2 is still on my hip. 


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


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## mcnair55 (Sep 17, 2014)

500Nitro said:


> The Led Lenser P 7.2 is a great everyday torch. No shut off as stated, light levels just dropped. Brighter up close than my old P 17 but over distance even the old P 17 outshines it on spot (I'm assuming this is because of the size f the reflector).
> 
> Took the P 7.2 an the P 17 hunting. Both were great. Spotted a fox at 150 meters and was able to shoot offhand while holding the torch (no mount as of yet) and dropped it. No complaints about the torch as a every day carry! The holster it comes in is great! Bit fat for a pocket but just loop it on your belt and your good to go! Make sure your t-shirt covers it and you get no questions.
> 
> ...



Totally agree and as stated before a massive Fenix fan but the 7.2 is a good work horse.


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## Lord Flashlight (Sep 18, 2014)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> My tastes in torches have "matured", I now know that regulated torches are completely wrong for my real world uses. The sudden shut off of light can leave you stuck in the dark in the middle of nowhere and most of the "modes" are pointless gimmickry. On the other hand the supposed gradual reduction in brightness of a non-regulated Led Lenser torch has never presented any problematic issue to me, it's only when they get to near end of battery life that my lensers stop giving more light than I need.
> 
> I have come to the conclusion that my old well worn P7 is the most useful, reliable and practical torch I own. The best by a mile.



Have to say I'm starting to agree with this. Quite a few of the regulated lights I have I wouldn't use in some serious situations because of what you describe. Lenser are often criticised for not being regulated by some, but there's a very practical reason why they aren't. Having a light suddenly die on you with no warning can be dangerous.

I don't have a P7, I have an M5 Lenser, which is probably the most practical single AA light I own.


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## mcnair55 (Sep 18, 2014)

Lord Flashlight said:


> Have to say I'm starting to agree with this. Quite a few of the regulated lights I have I wouldn't use in some serious situations because of what you describe. Lenser are often criticised for not being regulated by some, but there's a very practical reason why they aren't. Having a light suddenly die on you with no warning can be dangerous.
> 
> I don't have a P7, I have an M5 Lenser, which is probably the most practical single AA light I own.



Thanks for the heads up on the M5 will track one down and have a thorough perusal with the view to buying one.


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## ven (Sep 18, 2014)

Have a look at the p5r.2 ,its a great light to have around the house with a base charger


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## mcnair55 (Sep 18, 2014)

ven said:


> Have a look at the p5r.2 ,its a great light to have around the house with a base charger



I got a Defender from Travis Perkins the builders merchants,2 modes plus the stupid poser strobe c/w 18650 battery and base charger and 12v charger for £30.


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## Lord Flashlight (Oct 2, 2014)

Decided to buy a P7.2 to add to my lensers. Like it so far and will use it as main light for a while. Did have a T5 but gave to a relative who was very grateful and loves it.


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## cullen.salisbury (Oct 3, 2014)

There here in portland or led lenser coast ,gerber,letherman ,Kershaw


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## mcnair55 (Oct 3, 2014)

Lord Flashlight said:


> Decided to buy a P7.2 to add to my lensers. Like it so far and will use it as main light for a while. Did have a T5 but gave to a relative who was very grateful and loves it.
> 
> Where did you buy your 7.2 and did you get a good discount. It is about time Argos started selling decent lights.


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## Lord Flashlight (Oct 3, 2014)

> Where did you buy your 7.2 and did you get a good discount. It is about time Argos started selling decent lights.



From amazon UK. I think it was at least £10 less than the price of some specialist retailers.


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## ven (Oct 3, 2014)

Be it a p7 or t7 i love the form factor,the size for me is about perfect in hand and still just pockatable(similar to the x3vn i have in size ). Still think the lenser zoom is up there and very useful and i am yet to go swimming with it regarding water proof :laughing:
Do like the mat anodizing too,think it looks the dogs danglies over the shinier older models

Congrats on the light,hope you enjoy it as much as i do my t7.2


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## Lord Flashlight (May 19, 2015)

Went into Maplins just to browse today and ending up buying the Lenser TT.




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I have to say I really like it. It's very lightweight in the hand. Smaller than the P7.2/T7.2. I like the anti-roll ring on the end (which can be taken off). There's no boost it's just High 280 and Low 25 lumens. There's no having to cycle through low mode before switching off either. Simple on and off. Perfect for a coat pocket when out walking, unlike the P7.2/T7.2 which is just a bit too big and heavy.


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## InspectHerGadget (May 19, 2015)

They certainly make nice lights. Practical.


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## D6859 (May 19, 2015)

My friend is looking for a 200+ lm flashlight. He's going to use the light during the summer rock festivals working with the security. Small size is one requirement and I think he's going to use primary batteries or maybe NiMH. I think for the purpose 2-3 mode 1-2 AA with good throw might work. 

I recommended some 2AA Eagtac light that was on sale but he wasn't convinced yet. I also tried to sell my Armytek Partner A1 to him, but he still wasn't convinced. I thought the original price tag was what scared him off but now that I took a quick look on the Led Lenser cataloque they're even more expensive and not even close to the specs offered by the A1.

He told that they might make some group order for Led Lensers, since he's has heard so much good about them from others. I'm afraid I can't get him buy my A1 so which LL model would you suggest?


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## InspectHerGadget (May 20, 2015)

He shouldn't consider LL if he is worried about price!

LL also tend to use their own cells once you get into 18650 cells such as the Armytek A1 has. The reason is that they are not enthusiast tools but made for the general public. In other words they need to be guaranteed to work using supplied or off the shelf batteries. 

I think more information is needed on size, runtime and other requirements.

I have the P5R.2 which is a small single cell rechargeable. 2 modes 60 and 290 Lumens. Comes with battery and charger. A great light, powerful and small and of course a focussing lens. This might be ideal but runtime on an 18650 would be much more.


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## Fireclaw18 (May 20, 2015)

My LED Lenser M3R arrived today.

I was unimpressed.
(1) Despite being a 1xAAA size light like the P3 AFS P, the M3R is quite a bit larger in both length and witdh. It's much closer in size to a small AA light... not good considering it's running a tiny AAA.
(2) The main feature LED Lensers have is their special lens. It's a single-piece optic comprising both a TIR and and an aspheric lens with a pocket for the LED to extend into. Unlike cheapie budget aspheric lenses, an LED Lenser optic doesn't loose half its lumens when cycling to spot mode. This is because the optic wraps around the LED at all zoom positions and captures light that in a cheapie aspheric is lost into the sides of the bezel. Because the optic needs to surround the LED, it's usually necessary for the LED to be mounted on a post rather than a completely flat star. The problem is in this case, the optic is so small, the plastic cover surrounding the LED is actually too wide to allow the LED to retract into the cavity into the optic.
(3) This design flaw prevents the optic from retracting as far back as it otherwise could. the result is spot mode is fine, but flood mode is incredibly narrow. So narrow its borderline useless.
(4) Unlike my P3 AFS P, the M3R does not accept flat top lithium ion cells.
(5) the P3 AFS P isn't designed for lithium ion cells, but it does run on them and drives them fairly hard (I think actually direct drive). On a lithium ion cell, the P3 AFS P is MUCH brighter, throws further and has a wider flood than the M3R (at least after I swapped the same emitter into both lights).

I tried a few simple mods on my M3R to see if I could improve it:
(1) swapped cool white XPE2 for neutral white XPG2.
(2) soldered a copper disk onto the bottom of the driver to allow the light to accept flat top lithium ion cells.
(3) filed off bottom of the bezel and edges of the emitter cover to allow the bezel to retract further for a slightly wider flood.

In comparison with my P3 AFS P, the only mods I did were:
(1) swapped cool white XPE for neutral white XPG2
(2) replaced 1.5v AAA cell with Efest IMR 10440.

Of these two modded lights, the P3 AFS P is clearly better. It's noticeably brighter, smaller, lighter, throws further and has a wider flood. The only advantage the M3R has is it has modes. I'm undecided if it's worth trying to do further mods on the M3R. Maybe replace the driver with a 12mm Mountain Electronics FET driver once they come back in stock. Or possibly see if I can shorten the tailcap to make the light more compact. In its current form it's just not bright enough to meet my standards.


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## Lord Flashlight (May 20, 2015)

Fireclaw18 said:


> My LED Lenser M3R arrived today.
> 
> I was unimpressed.
> (1) Despite being a 1xAAA size light like the P3 AFS P, the M3R is quite a bit larger in both length and witdh. It's much closer in size to a small AA light... not good considering it's running a tiny AAA.



The dimensions of the light are similar as the M5 which is a AA light. I don't think it would be wise to have 220 lumens coming from a light the size of the P3.


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## D6859 (May 20, 2015)

InspectHerGadget said:


> He shouldn't consider LL if he is worried about price!
> 
> LL also tend to use their own cells once you get into 18650 cells such as the Armytek A1 has. The reason is that they are not enthusiast tools but made for the general public. In other words they need to be guaranteed to work using supplied or off the shelf batteries.
> 
> ...



Actually that Partner A1 is, as name suggests, 1xAA flashlight. You can use alkalines, NiMH or 14500 Li-ion in it, though alkalines are not recommended. 

Size should be something in the same class with regular 3xAAA or 2xAA or 1xAA not so exact. I think he was referring to Maglites when he was talking about 30 cm flashlights being too big to carry. I afraid he's not familiar with the modern led flashlight technology. Runtime doesn't have to be long since it's used mainly for occasionally checking the dark spots in the area. 

P5R.2 looks like a decent flashlight, but as you said they're expensive. With the money it costs in Finland I was able to buy my Thrunite TN12, two 18650 batteries and a charger...


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## InspectHerGadget (May 21, 2015)

D6859 said:


> Actually that Partner A1 is, as name suggests, 1xAA flashlight. You can use alkalines, NiMH or 14500 Li-ion in it, though alkalines are not recommended.
> 
> Size should be something in the same class with regular 3xAAA or 2xAA or 1xAA not so exact. I think he was referring to Maglites when he was talking about 30 cm flashlights being too big to carry. I afraid he's not familiar with the modern led flashlight technology. Runtime doesn't have to be long since it's used mainly for occasionally checking the dark spots in the area.
> 
> P5R.2 looks like a decent flashlight, but as you said they're expensive. With the money it costs in Finland I was able to buy my Thrunite TN12, two 18650 batteries and a charger...



OK. Thought the Partner was 18650.

I have a TN12 also but then, as you say, you then have to buy batteries that will fit and a charger, all extra. 

My TN12 is also still in China being fixed, after an issue and it has been a month since I sent it away.

I really like the TN12 but the warranty and how it gets fixed is important. The Lenser warranty is 5 years and generally they just replace the light. I think you do get what you pay for and most enthusiast lights, although well made, the warranties are variable depending on country.

I also think that they look really good and yes it is nice just to walk in and come out with light, battery and charger.


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