# Basic lathe tools to get started



## BVH

Thought I'd post a separate thread since it's a different enough topic from lathe selection. Today, I'm leaning towards the PM 1236 with DRO and skipping a mill purchase until later. Tomorrow, who knows!

I'd like to pick up a nice set of carbide insert bits, a boring bar set, a good dial indicator, "0-1" mic, 1"-2" mic, a telescoping gauge set, a precision level for machine setup, maybe some threading tools, and would I need one of those very low geared test dial indicators - if I'm remembering that name correctly.

1. Bit set - Latheinserts.com hobby set?
2. Boring bar set - Have not done any research on this yet
3. Dial Indicator - No research yet.
4. Mics - New or used Starrett 796 or 734 electronic/digital off Ebay
5. Telescoping gauge set - Starrett off Ebay
6. Precision Level - My wallet says cheap import but maybe not the place to cost cut?
7. Test indicator - No research yet.

What have I missed to start making chips once a machine arrives? I'd appreciate any suggestions on any/all of the above.


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## precisionworks

> I'm leaning towards the PM 1236 with DRO


Lots of members here would kill to have that setup :thumbsup:


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## Morelite

I've been looking at the PM 1127 with large bore and DRO to replace my Cummins 7x12. I think you will be quite happy with the PM 1236.


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## Th232

Don't forget shims. Maybe just hacksaw blades you've cut up or similar, but they'll be good to have for getting the tools to the right height.

Depth gauge or some other means of measuring the depth of the hole you've just bored. I often just use some vernier calipers though.

I presume you've already got a good selection of spanners, screwdrivers and drill bits?


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## BVH

Th232 said:


> Don't forget shims. Maybe just hacksaw blades you've cut up or similar, but they'll be good to have for getting the tools to the right height.
> 
> Depth gauge or some other means of measuring the depth of the hole you've just bored. I often just use some vernier calipers though.
> 
> I presume you've already got a good selection of spanners, screwdrivers and drill bits?


 
I was in auto and heavy equipment repair for 15 years so yes, have more than enough basic and advanced auto repair industry hand tools. Drill bits from # drills for carb jets up to 1" by 64ths including all number and letter sizes. Good point on shims. I have .001, .002., .005 and .010" rolls of brass shim stock. Is this practical to use?

I should add some depth gauge tools to the list.


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## Th232

Sounds like you're all set for shims, just stack on top if you need to.

One bit of advice with the shims, store each set of shims with the relevant tool. Makes things easier when you have to switch tools often. Or just buy a QCTP once you've had enough of cursing the shims.


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## precisionworks

> just buy a QCTP once you've had enough of cursing the shims.


+1

Without a doubt, the best money you will ever spend on your lathe.


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## gadget_lover

While you CAN get by with a smaller lathe tool ( 1. Bit set - Latheinserts.com hobby set? ) you should be aware that one reason to buy the bigger lathe is that it is sturdier in all respects. 

A small lathe tool will be less sturdy than a proper sized one. That means that it will cost less, but you will see more chatter when doing deep cuts. 

The optimal tool shank will be the one that puts the cutting tip just below the center of the lathe axis. That means you measure the distance from the bottom of the slot in the tool-holder to the exact center-line of the chuck. You want it to be just a touch undersized so that you can shim it to the exact height. I suspect on a 12x36 the tool size will use a 3/4 or 1 inch shank. If you buy undersized tools you will have a stack of shims. If you buy too big you have to mill or grind it down to get the cutting edge at the right height.

Daniel


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## PEU

precisionworks said:


> +1
> 
> Without a doubt, the best money you will ever spend on your lathe.


 
+1

QCTP, one of these things you test once and then realize why on earth it took you so long to discover it


Pablo


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## Racebrewer

Hi,

If you are turning, boring aluminum, HSS will work better than carbide. And,,,,,, it'll be cheaper and easier to work with.

Carbide, etc, works better with steel at higher rpm.

John


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## BVH

This is the only description of the QCTP that comes with the 1236 so I don't know its' quality. Will, did yours come with one?

Wedge Type Quick Change Tool Post Set with 5
Holders


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## wquiles

Racebrewer said:


> If you are turning, boring aluminum, HSS will work better than carbide





Racebrewer said:


> Carbide, etc, works better with steel at higher rpm.




I know that is your own opinion/experience, but since we are trying to give advice to somebody starting with a lathe right now, given the technology available today, we should not give advice based only on what worked well in the past since we now have available new materials/inserts that make getting started with a lathe even easier.

Yes, HSS will work today, as it has done for 50+ years. But, given the advent of positive geometry Al-specific inserts (most of which come with built-in chip breakers), I feel that new users today should completely by-pass HSS and move straight into these new/current technology and Al-specific inserts instead, like the ones I show here:























After having used both HSS and Al-specific inserts, the Al-specific inserts work over a much wider RPM range, have basically zero maintenance (put a new one when needed), last MUCH longer and stay sharper than HSS, and I can cut Al, Copper, softer steel, and Delrin with the same insert!. These inserts worked great in my old 7x and 8x, and now in my 12x, regardless of the RPM used. Here is another post with even more Al-inserts:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?246303-Photos-of-inserts-for-Aluminum-...


I do however agree 110% with you that inserts (even from Ebay, since you still need a tool holder for each insert type) are much more expensive. Let me say it again: Inserts are more expensive. Absolutely. That is a serious trade-off vs. being able to grind your own HSS tools. Also, in terms of selecting inserts and getting started, yes, inserts are also far more complex to get the right insert for the job. That is in fact the biggest problem inserts have is that there are too many of them to chose from. Very, very confusing to start with. 

But the problem is not with the inserts, as they will work wonders for all of us. The problem with inserts is in how they are marketed. With few recent exceptions, inserts are not marketed for us in a home/small business. They are marketed for the large shop, for high volume operation. That being the case, inserts are selected for the exact, precise operation where the insert/material/speed/coolant/etc. will yield the lowest time/cost possible. BUT, for the home/small business, I don't need to have the theoretically "perfect" insert to work with Al, Copper, soft steel, Delrin (most/all of the materials we use in our smaller shop/business). All you need (and it took me several years and help from Barry and this forum to find out) is a set of just but a few holders and Al-specific inserts. Once you use these Al inserts once, you realize that for the type of work we do in our home shops/small business, you can pretty much do everything with just the one insert type. Nothing is easier to work with than these high geometry inserts and a QCTP. 

And the durability of inserts is not exaggerated - this one insert here in this photo has done 50+ threading operations and still going strong:











This one here has grooved more than 20+ heads and bodies and still leaving a mirror finish:
















Now-a-days, for somebody starting with a lathe, again, in my opinion from having gone through both HSS and now inserts, there is absolutely ZERO reason to even bother with HSS. New lathe users should go straight to inserts and forget about HSS tools for most/all operations. All that new users need today is to start with Al-specific inserts, which are so sharp they will cut through Al, softer steels, and Delrin like butter - then the new user can concentrate on really learning how to use the lathe, how to approach a cut, etc. - the insert (once initially set on a QCTP) will stay true, and in place until it is time to put another one in. And I am not even going to go into PCD inserts - those are even better/sharper for Al/Delrin. Perhaps another post ...

Again, my own biased opinion. I am not trying to start a religious-type discussion between HSS and inserts. Just trying to give the guy with the new lathe an alternate suggestion based on my own experience.

Will


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## precisionworks

> for somebody starting with a lathe, again, in my opinion from having gone through both HSS and now inserts, there is absolutely ZERO reason to even bother with HSS.


+1

Even thought most CPF members do not run a for-profit business, watching the tooling used by business owners is one way to tell what works (for them) and what does not. HSS tooling is simply never found today in any job shop, whether that shop is dedicated or independent. It is too costly, when adding in total tooling costs, to have a place in today's machine shop.

A few posts back, shims were mentioned, but shims are generally not needed when using inserted tooling. Clamp the tooling in the block, adjust the block to center for OD turning tools, or adjust is .010" above center for ID boring/threading tools, and that tool block is good to go. 

Will's post is an excellent summation of what is commonly in use today, and why 99.9% of the shops in the world run only inserted tooling. 



> I am not trying to start a religious-type discussion between HSS and inserts.


LOL :devil:

I sometimes post on a general shop board, where most members use lathes that are 50-100 years old, meaning a very slow maximum speed. If the max speed on your machine is 250-500 rpm, as it often is on a World War I machine, HSS may well be the best choice. Reading the history of machine tool development, as related to tooling, shows that the invention of HSS was a watershed moment, as speeds of up to 100 sfpm could be used. To put that into perspective, 50 sfpm was the upper cutting speed limit before HSS was introduced. If your machine cannot spin a part any faster than 100 sfpm, HSS is all you'll ever need. A piece of 1" round bar, turning at 400 rpm, has a surface speed of 100 sfpm. There are still lots of old machines in use from the early to mid 1900's that cannot go any faster. 

A patent application was commercialized by _Krups_ (in Germany) in 1926, for the sintering of tungsten carbide. In only 20 short years, about the time of WWII, carbide tooling was in widespread use in machine shops around the world. Because it would run at 200 sfpm, twice as fast as HSS, carbide was eagerly embraced.

Fast forward to 2011 where we can pick & choose from inserts in more shapes, sizes, substrates & coatings than one person can remember. It isn't difficult to find the geometry needed at a decent price, and speed ranges today are often 400-1000 sfpm, sometimes more.


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## unterhausen

I guess there are people out there that will teach you to grind a hss tool, but when I got my lathe not knowing how to grind a tool was a real frustration. I'm much happier now that I'm using inserts. That was a bit of a learning curve too, but it takes zero coordination to start cutting once you do have the tools. The fact that there are businesses selling tools that are aimed at the hobbyist makes things even better.


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## Davo J

Racebrewer said:


> Hi,
> 
> If you are turning, boring aluminum, HSS will work better than carbide. And,,,,,, it'll be cheaper and easier to work with.
> 
> Carbide, etc, works better with steel at higher rpm.
> 
> John


 
+1
I use HSS all the time unless I need to use carbide on hard steel, and the lathe I have is similar to Wills and will run to 2000rpm. When they bring down the price of a carbide tool with say 50 inserts to around $3-$5 I will start using them all the time. 

If I bought all carbide tooling with my lathe I wouldn't have been able to afford half the machines I have, nor start machining for a long time after I bought it. It's fine if you have a big bank account, but why waist money when you can just buy a cheap stick of HSS and shape it to what ever you want.
It is not hard to grind a tool, even the worst grinds work OK in aluminum.

We are only talking home shop lathes here, production shops are a different matter all together, as time is money to them.

Dave


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## precisionworks

Here's something I use many times each day. Not a tool, but rather an accessory ...

Start with 2" diameter solid Al round stock:






Thread internally and add an end cap:






Hang your favorite hearing protectors:






FWIW, those are David Clark Model 27, with the optional gel filled ear seals ... pure comfort 



> It's fine if you have a big bank account,


Dave, 

Certainly EBay works Down Under ... where inserts are cheaper than cheap. I will on rare occasion pay $5-$7 for a material specific insert & coating, like a high positive insert for aluminum or a super tough & heat resistant insert for titanium. Other than that, most inserts that I use are the common, cheap shapes that are so easy to find on eBay - CNMG, CCGT, TNMG, etc. 

Even when paying retail of $7 each, a square insert yields 4 cutting edges, so the cost per edge is $1.75. Triangles & trigons have six edges and cost even less. Running hard & fast, which is how I always run (peeling brown & dropping blue) an edge lasts 30 minutes to an hour in tough materials like 4140HT, and may last for days in easy metals like 1144 or 12L11.

I might run HSS if I were retired and my time was limitless.


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## BVH

That is indeed, a very nice hanger!

Picked up the Mitutomo DTI that you posted about. I'm thinking it will be used when setting up whatever lathe I get or checking for its' accuracy? The only pics of its' use I've seen so far in my limited reading, is one used to check the runout of a lathe spindle. Other than a finer scale/.0005", do these differ from a conventional dial indicator in any other way? Might sound kinda dumb but are they used just when an accuracy of better than .001" is needed?


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## precisionworks

> do these differ from a conventional dial indicator in any other way?


The primary differences are the method of mounting and the way that the contact point is linked to the indicator needle. 

An AGD indicator uses (for the most part) a mounting lug on the back side, the lug having a central hole through which a screw or bolt may be run. The DTI has a number of dovetails machined on the body, usually one on top, one on the bottom, & one on the back. Because the DTI is physically smaller than most AGD indicators, the dovetails allows mounting on a mill column (for tramming). 

Probably the greatest use for a DTI on the lathe is centering a part for least run out. In the photo below, the DTI is touching the bore of a light to determine TIR:






The next measurement (not shown) involves running the contact tip as far forward as possible, to make sure the TIR reading is at least as good at that point. An AGD, with the plunger mechanism, could never do this. Many point lengths are available, often in solid carbide, with ball tips of both small and large radius.

I first indicate the light by touching off the OD near the tail (my newer fixtures leave that area exposed). The chuck is adjusted until the needle swings under .0005" TIR, and readings of .0003"-.0004" are not difficult to obtain. The contact point is them moved to the factory bore to see if that is concentric with the OD. Some are, some are not, and I need to know where the "thin part" of the tube is located. Boring & reaming take enough out that even a non concentric bore presents little problem.


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## BVH

Great explanation and photo example. Thank you, sir!


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## precisionworks

You're certainly welcome 

I always verify centering on the Bison Set-Tru 3-jaw chuck before using it for anything but rough work. A 6" long piece of Thomson Linear Shafting is used, as it isn't horribly expensive & it's nearly perfect in roundness (Class L & S are .000080" TIR, while Class N is .000050"). Normally use whatever DTI is attached to the Noga base, as all of mine read .0005".

http://www.thomsonlinear.com/websit...nt/RoundRail_LinearGuides_Components_cten.pdf

You'll want a "regular" AGD indicator as well, something with a 2" face diameter & 1" range of measurement, with increments of .001". Mitu & Starrett both make a nice version.


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## BVH

The DTI wasn't the first tool I thought about buying but since it was really cheap and recommended by you, I went for it. Are the magnetic base AGD's the way to go? 

One thing I always shy'd away from when using the small lathe years ago was using the 4-jaw chuck. I didn't have confidence in my ability to get something centered correctly. Guess I'll have to start learning how.


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## precisionworks

> One thing I always shy'd away from when using the small lathe years ago was using the 4-jaw


It isn't hard to learn, and the more you use the 4-jaw, the faster & easier it gets. Mine is used often, easily as much or more than both the 3-jaw AND the 5C collet chuck.


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> It isn't hard to learn, and the more you use the 4-jaw, the faster & easier it gets. Mine is used often, easily as much or more than both the 3-jaw AND the 5C collet chuck.



In your shop you do a lot more non-flashlight work, so I will be the first to point out that the 4-jaw makes more sense - definitely more practical and versatile for your work. But for me, I have "never" used the 4-jaw in the 12x lathe 

Once I adjust my 6-jaw Set-Tru Bison chuck to less than 0.0005" TIR, I simply forget about it and "just use it". The quality and repeatability of this chuck is totally awesome - it makes my lathe work easy, painless, and fast. In fact I have been using the same chuck since when I have my 8x lathe, and almost every project (in my signature) has been done with the same chuck. At least for me, this chuck is "the" single best purchase for my lathe, hands-down


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## Davo J

precisionworks said:


> Dave,
> 
> Certainly EBay works Down Under ... where inserts are cheaper than cheap. I will on rare occasion pay $5-$7 for a material specific insert & coating, like a high positive insert for aluminum or a super tough & heat resistant insert for titanium. Other than that, most inserts that I use are the common, cheap shapes that are so easy to find on eBay - CNMG, CCGT, TNMG, etc.
> 
> Even when paying retail of $7 each, a square insert yields 4 cutting edges, so the cost per edge is $1.75. Triangles & trigons have six edges and cost even less. Running hard & fast, which is how I always run (peeling brown & dropping blue) an edge lasts 30 minutes to an hour in tough materials like 4140HT, and may last for days in easy metals like 1144 or 12L11.
> 
> I might run HSS if I were retired and my time was limitless.


 
Hi Barry,
I read most if not all your postings and understand for you it"s your bread and butter, but I am only a home shop doing it for a hobby. If I was to big get jobs coming through I would factor in the price of inserts and let the customer pay for it as well.

I am only 44 (so not an old guy) and bought my first lathe when I was around 24. I had 3 kids to feed and all the usual bills back then, so money was tight and HSS fitted the bill. Even though I have a small range of insert tooling today, I still prefer HSS over carbide unless it's hard material.

Down here we buy from the US as prices are too high locally. So what ever price you guys pay for inserts, we have to pay high postage on top and then wait. Below is a example of local prices for inserts. This is like a shars type shop over their.
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Turning-Inserts

As for 4 jaws, practice makes perfect. If you find it hard to do, just chuck something up, true it up, then take it out and do it all over again until you get you times down to around 5 minutes or less. You will be amazed at how quick you can get down to going off the dial indicator and halving the reading when adjusting it.

Regards Dave


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## precisionworks

> you do a lot more non-flashlight work


Sometimes lights are bored in the 3-jaw, as my latest fixture holds close to .0001" runout. Add that number to the runout of the chuck & TIR is still around .0003"-.0004". Problem is that some lights just will not center up well in the 3-jaw with the fixture, so out comes the 4-jaw. With it, there's no problem to get down to a dead still needle  

The four jaw can also be tightened more, which normally is not an issue with a flashlight but often is a concern on a "regular" job in steel or chrome-moly. With my Set-Tru, it is nearly impossible to get it tight enough to withstand the pushing force from the tailstock live center - the part slides backward as the live center is moved forward. Not a big deal if you notice this, but an aggressive turning cut will do the same thing, to the extent that the stock comes off the live center ... which is excitement I do not need, especially if the part is 4" diameter & 24" long 



> what ever price you guys pay for inserts, we have to pay high postage on top and then wait.


I can appreciate your situation, Dave. I buy low whenever possible, which is why so much tooling is eBay purchased. And you're right, it's easier to justify some expenses when the customer pays for them ... like the $100 twist drill (just one) and a 3MT-4MT adapter, but those will run for 24 total hours next week & had to be purchased TODAY. Keeping costs down is a challenge for a small business just as it is for the home shop machinist.


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## metalbutcher

Barry,

Nice hanger you made for your hearing protection. I'll be adding that one to my list of projects. And thanks for the info about the David Clark hearing protectors. I need a new one since my Peltor is getting quite old and is now relegated to use when I mow the lawn and when I use my table or miter saw. I need another one for my machine shop so I'll be getting one of the David Clark 27s.

A dumb question. How did you attach the hanger to the wall?

Ed


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## precisionworks

> I'll be getting one of the David Clark 27s.


You will enjoy them, Ed. Be sure to get the gel filled ear seals, as they add both comfort & additional sound damping. Many days while working in a noisy factory, these stayed on my head for 8 hours straight. 



> How did you attach the hanger to the wall?


The 2" (small rod) is threaded 1/2x13 from each end. A bolt goes through the cabinet door & into the back of the 2" rod. The 3.5" disc is also threaded 1/2x13, with the threads stopped just short of the front face. A short piece of all thread rod was screwed into the disc until it bottomed out, then screwed into the rod. It would have been faster to use exposed hardware, but I prefer the clean look of the faced off disc.


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## metalbutcher

Barry,

Thanks for the information on mounting the hanger. I'm going to mount mine on a wall but will just make a flange that bolts to the wall which has a 1/2-13 threaded stub sticking out to accept the hanger.

I just ordered the David Clark hearing protector. It was much cheaper to order it directly from their web site then going through a distributor.

Ed


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## precisionworks

> It was much cheaper to order it directly from their web site then going through a distributor.


+1

They have made high end ear protection, primarily for airline pilots & private pilots, since I first shot in NRA pistol competition - that was in the mid 1960's. Nice to see that an American company withstood the onslaught of cheap imports - cheap meaning horribly constructed, not just inexpensive.


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## KC2IXE

I WILL say there are still times where HSS tools make sense - usually custom form tools when you don't have CNC to cut the form for you (and yes, even though I haven't posted in a LONG time, I'm still lurking, just BUSY, and not in the shop )


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## BVH

I had a pair of DC's when I flew many years ago. They were the very best available. They make a great product.


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## precisionworks

> there are still times where HSS tools make sense - usually custom form tools when you don't have CNC to cut the form for you


+1

When a convex or concave radius is needed, or when a special shape needs to be formed, a ground form tool can work nicely. It is important to remember that form tools are usually ground and used as a scraping tool, as opposed to a shearing tool. As long as most of the waste is first removed, the form tool will do a nice job as a finisher.


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## BVH

Barry, you mentioned that I would need an AGD DI in addition to the DTI. Does the starrett 196 kit with the clamp, extensions etc. fit this bill or does it lack some of the capabilities


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## precisionworks

BVH said:


> Barry, you mentioned that I would need an AGD DI in addition to the DTI. Does the starrett 196 kit with the clamp, extensions etc. fit this bill or does it lack some of the capabilities



IMO, the 196 back-plunger is a more specialized tool than a conventional AGD bottom-plunger. The 196 has a range of only .200", compared to the 1.000" (or greater) range of most bottom plunger dial indicators. The 196 is a very nice tool to add when needed, but a 1" travel bottom-plunger indicator is the workhorse of the machine shop.


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## metalbutcher

KBC Tools has a nice Mitutoyo DI on sale for $88, regular price is $110. KBC item number is 1-808-2416S. Here's a link to the sale catalog page showing it.

http://kbctools.com/usa/Navigation/NavSFPDF.cfm?PDFSFPage=20

I'm tempted to get one myself at that price. 

Ed


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## BVH

The main reason I asked about the kit was that I've got the DTI coming and I'll get an AGD type but I don't have any mounting hardware, magnetic or otherwise and was assuming the mounting hardware in the 196 kit could be used, plus maybe buying a magnetic base.


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## precisionworks

BVH said:


> The main reason I asked about the kit was that I've got the DTI coming and I'll get an AGD type but I don't have any mounting hardware, magnetic or otherwise and was assuming the mounting hardware in the 196 kit could be used, plus maybe buying a magnetic base.



A Noga magnet base will hold both the DTI and the AGD indicators. There are lots of Noga knock offs, most as sturdy as overcooked linguine. The real deal is around $100 and will give a lifetime of service ... and never move .0001"


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## BVH

Thanks for the confirmation on the Noga. I stumbled into a couple of machine forum threads yesterday and the Noga was hands-down, the top recommendation. Now to try to find the best price! I love buying tools. It's fun but expensive!

Found the Noga mg61003 on sale for $94


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## metalbutcher

precisionworks said:


> You will enjoy them, Ed. Be sure to get the gel filled ear seals, as they add both comfort & additional sound damping. Many days while working in a noisy factory, these stayed on my head for 8 hours straight.



I got the David Clark hearing protectors today. I tried them on with the standard ear seals and they are about as comfortable as my Peltor. I tried putting on the gel filled ear seals and failed miserable so I gave up. After having a glass of wine I decided to try getting those buggers on again. No problem this time. I'm not sure what that means. :huh:

I can vouch for spending the extra $22 on the gel filled ear seals. They are so comfortable I think I could wear them all day without a problem. Many thanks to Barry for mentioning these. :thumbsup:

Ed


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## BVH

I was about to look into buying some DC hearing protectors. Sometimes, the solution is so easy that it goes unnoticed. I rarely fly commercially any more and consequently, forget I have the latest Bose noise-cancelling headset with audio input. Maybe I'll keep them in the garage and plug into the iphone when I need hearing protection.


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## wquiles

metalbutcher said:


> I got the David Clark hearing protectors today.
> 
> I can vouch for spending the extra $22 on the gel filled ear seals. They are so comfortable I think I could wear them all day without a problem. Many thanks to Barry for mentioning these. :thumbsup:


+1

I got mine yesterday. Once I expanded the metal band to fit my big head, they are really, really comfortable, specially with the gel pads


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## jialx

Maybe just hacksaw blades you've cut up or similar,i don't know


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## BVH

The Holdridge Radii cutter looks like a fun tool to have. In the back of my mind, though, I'm thinking it looks fun to a newbie but is one of those very expensive tools that's hardly ever used. To those who have them, do you use them?

https://hermes.web.com/mnt/files/4/S/4S 4D website page.pdfac503ec4.pdf


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## precisionworks

Hard to justify a grand for a tool like that, but easy to send off $79USD for a kit 







These were sold almost two years ago & I just snagged one of those on PM. Here's the old sales thread:



> I have some Radii cutter casting kits in stock. These are comparable to a Holdridge number 4. No prints or instructions provided. Board mounted and pattern poured castings provide ample machine stock.
> 
> One set of Rough castings 2 pieces, $79.00, delivered USPS prioroty.
> 
> This price is for cash or check. Thanks for understanding.
> 
> NO PM's
> [email protected]
> 330.502.0066
> 
> Thanks;
> Craig Donges


You may want to phone or email Craig & see if he has any left. NOTE: a rough casting kit like this means you'll need a mill & about half a day for completion into a usable tool.


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## darkzero

BVH said:


> The Holdridge Radii cutter looks like a fun tool to have. In the back of my mind, though, I'm thinking it looks fun to a newbie but is one of those very expensive tools that's hardly ever used. To those who have them, do you use them?
> 
> https://hermes.web.com/mnt/files/4/S/4S%204D%20website%20page.pdfac503ec4.pdf


 
I don't have a "real deal" tool but rather a smaller "home made" radius tool.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?310681-Radius-Turning-Tool-Post-For-PM1236











For months it sat in a drawer after making the knob for it but now I'm starting to use it more & more.

Here's a working Titanium Tippe Top that I just finished (still working on a new design).














Video: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHs2ft9_Ado


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## precisionworks

WOW, that Ti top goes forever 

I couldn't remember who had posted their ball turner tool & am glad to see yours again. It seems like I often need a ball handle but end up ordering from McMaster or Reid Supply ... when it would be faster to turn one up.


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## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> WOW, that Ti top goes forever


 
Actually, I'm not happy with it. In the video I have it spinning on a metal pan that doesn't have a nice smooth surface so it doesn't spin as well as it should. You can hear the friction & see the erractic movement

I originally made a steeper point on the post thinking it would spin better but it won't even flip up onto it. The end of the post has to be blunt & is what I'm working on to make it spin better. But at least it's working now, before I couldn't get it to flip over because of the weight differences than wood.

My previous Ti tops spin a lot better. On a smooth surface they can spin up to a couple minutes if you get a good spin on it (they're small) & if you do get a good spin on it, it'll spin so smooth that you can't even tell it's spinning.

Unfortuantely I don't have any pics other than some cell phone pics. The last one I made I gave away last minute to a co-worker, it was her birthday.





















precisionworks said:


> I couldn't remember who had posted their ball turner tool & am glad to see yours again. It seems like I often need a ball handle but end up ordering from McMaster or Reid Supply ... when it would be faster to turn one up.


 

For me it would probably be faster & cheaper to just order ball knob from Mcmaster or MSC. 

My Gibraltar ball knobs arrive the very next day & they're very inexpensive. Turning a ball is pretty time consuming since you have to thread the stock, make a mandrel for it (I have various mandrels ready made), then finish sand it when done. But steel & Ti balls look very cool & feel nice. I originally had a red ball knob on my radius tool but I like the steel ball so much better even though the textured Gibraltar had better grip.


----------



## BVH

dark, thanks for the link to your ball turner build based on Steve's cutter. I've looked and re-looked quite a few times at that tool on Steve's site and thought it would make a great beginning lathe and mill project for me. But I'm holding off a bit on the mill so don't have the means to make the whole thing. But in seeing your thread, looks like I could buy the cutter and make a base when I get a lathe. The sales site says it's good for 32mm. Couldn't a longer shanked cutting bit increase that somewhat?


----------



## darkzero

BVH said:


> The sales site says it's good for 32mm. Couldn't a longer shanked cutting bit increase that somewhat?


 
I very rarely do flashlight work anymore & even though I prefer to only work on smaller lights. I haven't had a need to use the radius tool for anything larger than 1.25"Ø, not yet anyway. A taller bit holder would allow you to work with a larger diameter but it would be best to make it beefier for rigidity. 

LMS carries a different style that will allow up to 1.75"Ø.
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2568&category=

Alisam also offers blanks that are already waterjeted & broached so you can complete the rest yourself. Allows up tp 2"Ø. He also sells on ebay, I've dealt with him before & he's a great guy who stands behind his products.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metal-lathe...172?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e6ac4544

But these two are designed to mount to the tool post.

Seems like all these tools & Steve Bedair's design are all mostly used/made for smaller lathes. For the larger lathes I have really only seen the type you & Barry posted used.


----------



## BVH

Not knowing what I am going to make in the future, would 6061 and 7075 be good Aluminum Alloys to have on hand?


----------



## wquiles

BVH said:


> Not knowing what I am going to make in the future, would 6061 and 7075 be good Aluminum Alloys to have on hand?


 
Even if you know how to use a lathe, you will need to learn things in your new lathe, so you will always need something to learn with. So either one will be fine although 6061 can sometimes be picky/finicky/gummy/etc. Another good option would be 12L44 "leaded" steel - easy to use, and very forgiving 

Close up of external threads on 12L44:


----------



## gadget_lover

BVH said:


> Not knowing what I am going to make in the future, would 6061 and 7075 be good Aluminum Alloys to have on hand?


 
The alloy is one decision. The other is what sizes?

Early on I discovered the folly of buying large pieces to make small things. I made a 3/4 inch diameter flashlight from a 1.75 inch diameter bar. It was only 4 inches long, but some math will tell you that I carved away about 4 cubic inches of aluminum. That led to 3 key learnings:

1) Keep stock as close as possible the finished size
2) If it will be hollow, start with tube when possible.
3) Design your dimensions to match the size of the stock on hand if the size does not matter.

Having said that, I've ended up with a couple hundred pounds of stock in various sizes and alloys. Even so I often find myself without a perfect size in the alloy that I want to use.

When buying at the local metal mart by the pound and a $30 minimum purchase it does not take long to add up to a big pile.

Daniel


----------



## precisionworks

> would 6061 and 7075 be good Aluminum Alloys to have on hand?


6061 is the most commonly used alloy in the USA, meaning that's what you'll most often find at the scrap yard. It mills nicely with high pos inserts, and turning isn't bad as long as you use aluminum specific high pos inserts. 

If you have to pay retail (anything above $1.50/pound) just order it as needed from McMaster. It will arrive within 24 hours of ordering, shipping costs are low, service is awesome. I used to buy from some of the other online metals stores, and their prices are usually a little lower than McM, but 7-10 days is the normal delivery time. Most of my customers wait until the last possible minute & then want their parts finished yesterday, so anything beyond a 1 day delivery will not cut it. I do try to inventory quite a bit of aluminum flat & round at $1.50/pound, as it helps with the "just in time" jobs. 

On specialty steels, the only thing stocked in my shop is 4140HT in rounds from 1/2" diameter to 2" diameter. Even the best suppliers have long lead times on that item, but it is high dollar.

1144 Stressproof has nearly the tensile strength of 4140HT & is much more easily machined.


----------



## BVH

Thanks for the input guys. I've picked up some 1 and 2' pieces of stressproof, from 1/4 to 1 1/4" by quarter inch jumps. Some 1' pieces of copper, brass and bronze in 1/2 and 1". 2' Delrin from 1/4 to 1 1/2" by quarters, about the same with PTFE, a token piece of Fluorosint (that I thought I was specifically going to use as a bushing around the Anode base of a military short arc - but since have learned that it, too, will not handle the 750C quartz temp) and a token 1' piece of Ti in 1", the 6Al-4V eli variety (just to see what a nice bar of Ti looks and feel like). A foot of 316L Stainless in 3/4 and 1". I bought from Amazon and Onlinemetals. I completely forgot about McM. They are a great source. I used to order in the evening and have it the next day, can't beat that! More suggestions for something I have not thought of?

Is there a good web site and/or a nice wall chart for learning about what inserts to use for what materials, cutting speeds, the difference between the negative and positive inserts you mention? I noticed some insert bits are more pointed/less than 90 degrees (negative?) and some are over 90 degree angles (positive?)


----------



## precisionworks

> Is there a good web site and/or a nice wall chart for learning about what inserts to use for what materials, cutting speeds, the difference between the negative and positive inserts you mention?


The newer issues of Machinery's Handbook are a great place to start, as quite a few pages are devoted to the characteristics of negative rake versus positive rake inserts. In the 27th Large Print edition look in pages 749-763.

Aluminum alloys machine best with Al specific inserts (hi-pos with polished rake face). Curt at LatheInserts carries quite a few shapes as does Vic at RaniToolCorp. 

High temp alloys & stainless steels run well with with inserts designed to handle lots of heat. Lots of choices from all the big name manufacturers.

Most plastics cut nicely using the Al specific inserts with all the speed/feed/DOC that your machine will handle. Plastics are not a slam dunk especially when taking large DOC roughing passes. 






Part above is 6.250" HDPE at 700 rpm (1150 sfpm). DOC set at .300", feeding as quickly as the handle could be turned. Plan to stop every five seconds or so to clear the unbroken curls before they wrap around the part. _*Never touch plastic shavings while the spindle is turning.*_ This looks deceptively easy but requires a lot of horsepower to take a big cut ... which produces a thick curl of surprising strength which can amputate fingers or hands in a heartbeat. _*Never touch plastic shavings while the spindle is turning.

*_Most steels will run OK with about any insert that you like. The best sfpm guide for steel is color & a chip that peels gold & drops blue means that you are at the top of the sfpm range - right where you need to be. Peeling with no color means you can speed up, peeling blue & dropping red means slow down NOW. 

A box of EBay cermet inserts is nice to have on hand. Conventional coated carbide inserts cut well only to 45 HRc, although you can force them to cut harder materials with dramatically shortened insert life. Cermets are designed to handle "hard turning" which covers the range from 45 HRC to 65 HRc. When someone brings in a hardened shaft that needs to be turned down, you'll appreciate the value of cermets.

EDIT: forgot to add this the first time around, but you should consider some form of lubrication. The simplest method is a sprayer bottle filled with water soluble lubricant. Next up the line is a mister, flood, or an air jet. The best lube applicator I've found (and the one used by Will Q) is the Accu-Lube by ITW. Tooling life is many times longer & surface finish is dramatically better.





















Seems like I won mine at eBay auction for $153 (retails around $1200). A gallon of the special vegetable based lube should last for years unless you run 24/7/365


----------



## BVH

Quick ? on the book. I can find a 28th, Large print ed for just a few more dollars than a used 27th. Is the 27th ed. still the better book to get?


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## precisionworks

BVH said:


> Quick ? on the book. I can find a 28th, Large print ed for just a few more dollars than a used 27th. Is the 27th ed. still the better book to get?


 
if you look around a little you maybe able to find the 27th for about $45 delivered as I did.


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## BVH

Was that new for $45?


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## precisionworks

BVH said:


> Was that new for $45?


 It was purchased on half.com which is an ebay site for used books. It had been sold as a college textbook but it had never even been opened. There is not a single mark anywhere in the book.


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## BVH

Ok, thank you. I've got time so I'll keep an eye out for it. Thanks for the tip on not clearing the plastic cuttings!

On my way to local Harbor Freight to pick up the 2-ton foldable crane so I can handle the 1236 when it arrives! This is getting exciting.


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## BVH

Just noticed your edit for the lube system. Looks like a great near-dry system. Milling use consumes 1-2 oz per 8 hr shift. Didn't know such systems exist. WOW, you got your cheap!


----------



## precisionworks

MQL isn't a brand new technology but many machinists are still unaware of it. For any machining op where the shear plane is exposed (OD turning, facing, milling, etc.) it's a superb way to keep the insert cool. Surface finish is almost always better with some sort of lube, as friction is reduced at the tool-work interface which eliminates or reduces the tendency of the insert to stick-slip. Generally speaking, any type of lubricant/coolant allows machining at least twice as fast as running dry. 



> WOW, you got yours cheap!


LOL 

They show up on eBay often and the two big names are Accu-Lube & Unist. Unist makes conventional misters as well as MQL but their MQL applicators are dead ringers for the Accu-Lube units. Unlike flood there's no sump full of liquid to deal with & they don't fog the air like a mister.


----------



## wquiles

I have a thread with a few photos on the near-dry machining:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?257169-Near-dry-machining-...


----------



## BVH

What's the hot tip for a set of center drills? Is HSS ok or would you recommend something better - carbide, cobalt?


A novice question...If I own a live and dead center, why or when would I choose to use the dead center? It seems like the live center would always be the better tool to use.


----------



## gadget_lover

Live VS dead...

First, a live center is usually used in the tailstock, and it provides a nice clean and easy way to support the far end of the work. It will always have some amount of runnout. It is, after all, based on a bearing. So in some cases a dead center will produce a truer reference point. I don't do any work that needs that much precision. . A good live center is also very expensive (hundred or so $$$) where a dead center is dirt cheap ($10).

Second, the dead center is often used on the headstock end in the spindle, where it rotates with the work. The dead center is meant to be reshaped while mounted in the spindle to ensure it is 100% concentric with the lathe axis. If used in the tailstock you need to use grease to keep the center from damaging the work, or even friction welding itself to the work.

Dan


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## BVH

Ahhhh...more precision and accuracy with the dead center. I should have thought of that!


----------



## BVH

What's a good brand & material for a center drill set and is #1-6 generally sufficient?


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## precisionworks

BVH said:


> What's a good brand & material for a center drill set and is #1-6 generally sufficient?



Keo is a brand often seen, made in USA, good quality & sometimes on sale at Enco/MSC. Other high quality names are Chicago-Latrobe and Cleveland.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=FG891-4348


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## BVH

My Starrett 796XFL-2 mic arrived today with no manual. Do Starrett tools come with manuals? I've searched quite a few times for online access to Starrett manuals with zero luck. Seems like a big, dark black hole with their manuals.


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## precisionworks

Phone & ask for Paul in the parts department. Paul has worked there for 25+ years (hopefully he hasn't retired).


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## BVH

Got lucky and picked up what looks to be a pristine copy of the Large print, 27th Edition of Machinerys' Handbook just now on Ebay for $43.95 shipped. Have lots of reading material now!


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## precisionworks

Good for you 

I've read about 1000 pages in mine so far. Amazing the things that have changed since the last (1970) edition.


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## BVH

Can someone recommend a very good to excellent quality boring bar set that I'll be able to use with a BXA QRTP and its holders? 

1. Should I consider thru-tool coolant types? I'll probably eventually have an Accu-Lupe type system.
2. What is the smallest size boring capacity bar I should consider? Is it reasonable to be able to bore to a finished 3/8" hole using a smaller diameter bar?
3. Want bars that accept indexed type bits.
4. Not sure what else I should be asking for.

I remember reading somewhere here that it's reasonable to bore to a depth around 3 times (not sure if this was the number or not) the diameter of the bar. Is this correct?


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## precisionworks

> Should I consider thru-tool coolant types?


If you have liquid flood or air to feed through the bar a through coolant bar is nice. MQL doesn't do well as the MQL applicator tip needs to be directly pointed at the insert instead of feeding into the bar from a distance away. 



> Is it reasonable to be able to bore to a finished 3/8" hole using a smaller diameter bar?


That's a BIG bore  



> Want bars that accept indexed type bits.


The choices are many and it can be tough to pick a good shape. CCMT (positive 80° diamond) is an awesome shape for a smaller bar. My Ultra-Dex solid carbide bar is .500"D and can bore .625"D minimum. My larger bars use CNMG-4xx. Vic at Rani Tool is one of the best sources I've found for boring bars, and that's where I bought the Ultra-Dex bar.



> it's reasonable to bore to a depth around 3 times the diameter of the bar


4D is the general rule with a steel bar, 8D with a solid carbide bar.

Here's an excellent short article from Cutting Tool Engineering: http://www.ctemag.com/dynamic.articles.php?id=187


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## BVH

Thank you sir! I have a flood system coming with the lathe but IIRC, Will Q didn't think much of it. If MQL doesn't work "thru-tool", then is flood mandatory for boring or can it be done dry as lots of people appear to do on outside cutting? (knowing that coolant cooling produces a better finish). I have a good supply of air so I could always use the thru-tool for clearing chips as you mention. 

Back to small boring. I've now seen some boring bars that can do .120" or smaller. At these small I.D.'s, are there internal threading tools made to cut threads or is a tap typically used? 

I'll go read the article now.


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## precisionworks

> is flood mandatory for boring or can it be done dry


Surface finish is better (usually) with through the tool coolant but lots of boring is done dry. I blow high pressure air through the bar to keep the chips cleared & that works really well. The closer the bar is to minimum bore size the more important it is to keep the chips cleared out.







> I've now seen some boring bars that can do .120" or smaller. At these small I.D.'s, are there internal threading tools made to cut threads or is a tap typically used?


Taps do a nice job on threads under 1" (25mm). Above that the taps can get expensive & it's usually more cost effective to single point thread.


----------



## darkzero

BVH said:


> What's the hot tip for a set of center drills? Is HSS ok or would you recommend something better - carbide, cobalt?


I've been using a cheap HSS China set from CDCO. I use them somewhat often on the lathe & drill press. As cheap as they were they still cut pretty well. Although #s 1-2 I only will only use with alumn or brass. I did break #2 in Ti which I then replaced with a Traver's branded solid carbide. I use #3 & up even in Ti.




BVH said:


> Can someone recommend a very good to excellent quality boring bar set


 


precisionworks said:


> The choices are many and it can be tough to pick a good shape. CCMT (positive 80° diamond) is an awesome shape for a smaller bar. My Ultra-Dex solid carbide bar is .500"D and can bore .625"D minimum. My larger bars use CNMG-4xx.


 
My very first two boring bars were solid carbide that use CCMT 21.5X that WillQ gave me a great deal on, a 3/8" & 1/2". So I'm spoiled & have no idea what it feels like to use steel bars. I then added a 5/16" solid carbide bar that also came from ebay. Eventually I sold the 1/2" & replaced it with pretty much the same thing but longer. I have been using Valenite CCGT 21.51 inserts in them (got a great deal of 30 inserts). What's great about these is that all three use the same size insert, CCGT are nice & sharp, & they can be found for cheap.

These solid carbide bars are found on ebay for around $50 depending on the size. (Usually sold by JTS Machinery under two different seller names. JTS is decent on ebay, go direct & they can have very bad customer service sometimes. Guess their ebay people are different then the website people?)







The larger one is a 3/4" solid carbide bar that uses CCGT 32.5X. Again this is nice cause I also use SCLC-R/L holders that use the same size insert. Again, these inserts can be had for cheap. I got a great deal on 50 Ingersoll/Taegutec CCGT 32.51 (AL specific) for $145. But I still haven't ran out of the TMX/Korloy inserts I got from Curtis @ latheinserts.com. In this boring bar I use Mitsubishi CCGT 32.52 (AL specific).





BVH said:


> I've now seen some boring bars that can do .120" or smaller. At these small I.D.'s, are there internal threading tools made to cut threads or is a tap typically used?


 
I think I might have showed you some of these but for even smaller than a 1/4" bar, Circle Machine solid carbide boring bars work great & are perfect if you ever you need to bore a very small accurate shallow hole. Unfortuantely my inside micrometer can't measure less than .2", I just check the bore with my calipers & with what I'm trying to fit. I paid full price for two of them but you can find them dirt cheap on ebay.

The tinniest one is just sitting in the holder for comparison.







For internal threading 1/2" is the smallest I'll go with my internal threader. Anything smaller than that and it's just easier to use a tap. I tried using a nice powedered metal TiCN 1/2"-20 tap & it took me 3x longer struggling to tap the damn hole, using plenty of tap paste, than it takes me to thread it with the internal threader. This is on Ti though BTW. 

For external threads I mostly use the external threader, The smallest I go regulary is 5/16". But for threading external threads for something you need quick, a TS die holder comes in handly. I was supposed to make one in shop class but never got around to it so I just bought a cheap one. It's does the job.


----------



## darkzero

One (or two) thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is a means of cutting stock...... 

Parting off on the lathe is fine & can be difficult on smaller machines, I hated parting with my 8x14. But with the 1236 I part off Ti quite often with ease, just need to find the right cutter that works for you. A parting tool should defintely be on your list.

But what I mean by cutting stock is a bandsaw of some sort if you do not already have one. Even a vertical bandsaw will do with the right blade. The very first couple of times I had to cut down some aluminum rods to length with a hacksaw, I knew there was no way I was going to continue on this way. You can always part off on the lathe but if you buy rods in 3 ft lengths you should use a bandsaw. No way in hell would I try to cut Ti down to size by hand. I can't live without my bandsaw even though it's such a small one

I picked up a Enco branded equivelent to the smaller horizontal bandsaw like the HF, Grizzy, Craftsman, etc for $100 local. It was practically brand new as it just sat in the corner of guy's garage for a few years. Even one of those portable bandsaws from HF will work nice & sure beats using a hacksaw.

It comes in handy for other things too. I was making another delrin collet similar to how Barry uses for boring flashlight bodies. The very first little one I made for my tops I cut it in half with a hacksaw. First I used a mini hacksaw, then a full size hacksaw, as easy as delrin machines, cutting it with a hacksaw can't get tougher whne it starts to heat up. Didn't come out too pretty. Then it occurred to me why I just didn't use the bandsaw. 

Here's a collet I made for a Ti rod that I knurled so the chuck jaws would not damage the knurling.







Which leads to..... A nice threading tool should be somewhere down lower on your list. 

The very first time I knurled something was on T6061, I thought man, this is easy! Then when I started experimenting with 303 & 6AL-4V in different sizes, knurling can leave you standing in front of the lathe with a hammer in one hand & cursing out the damn piece of metal that didn't come out right. :hairpull:

I've always wanted a nice cut knurler like WillQ's Dorian but with some practice & the right setup you can get some pretty nice form knurling even on Ti.

Here's a very fine fully raised knurl on 5/8" Ti 6AL-4V.











Which I made some fatty beads out of.


----------



## precisionworks

> I tried using a nice powedered metal TiCN 1/2"-20 tap & it took me 3x longer struggling to tap the damn hole, using plenty of tap paste, than it takes me to thread it with the internal threader.



Power threading on the lathe takes practice, but the lathe makes quick work of any internal thread for which you have a tap. Here's a short list of what I do:

Drill the tap hole to correct size & slightly deeper than needed. 

Chamfer the entry to about the OD of the tap or just a bit larger. The chamfer is critical to starting the tap.

Set the speed to your lowest setting. Any speed around 50-100 rpm works well. 

Squirt TapMagic into the hole & also use it to flood the tap.

With the tap gripped in a *keyed* chuck in the tailstock, push the unlocked tailstock forward until the tap starts in the hole.

When the tap reaches the bottom of the hole it will start to spin in the chuck. Stop the spindle, reverse it to back the tap out, all done.

I can't remember ever breaking a tap by doing this because the keyed chuck works as a slip clutch & allows the tap to spin. A good keyless chuck like Albrecht will self tighten as the tap spins which is not what you want. 

Pipe taps are tough to run in by hand but easy to use on the lathe. Try turning a 2" NPT tap by hand with a 36" tap wrench if you can't make it to the gym for a workout - according to Machinery's Handbook it requires 4.24 hp in cast iron & twice that in cast steel. Running the same tap in the lathe is easy work.



> This is on Ti though BTW.


Ti6-4 isn't bad on well fixtured _external _ops (turning, facing, milling, etc.). Internal work is a different story. Don't even try to size the hole for a 75% thread as you'll get nothing but trouble - a 75% thread in Ti6-4 requires almost double the torque of a 65% thread and is only marginally stronger. If the job allows, a 55% thread is even more easily tapped. For lubrication a heavy chlorinated & sulfurized oil beats everything else.


----------



## BVH

Will and Barry, thank you for all this great info!! I bought a Jet horizontal/Vertical bandsaw a few years ago so I'm set in that regard. I still need to figure out all of these ccgt, ccmt etc designations. I like the idea of interchangeable bits for boring and external cutting.


----------



## Th232

precisionworks said:


> With the tap gripped in a *keyed* chuck in the tailstock, push the unlocked tailstock forward until the tap starts in the hole.
> 
> When the tap reaches the bottom of the hole it will start to spin in the chuck. Stop the spindle, reverse it to back the tap out, all done.


 
Maybe I'm missing something, but if you tighten the chuck too much won't you score the tap (or have the chuck/arbor spin in the tailstock)? If so, how do you know if you've tightened things too much?


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> Power threading on the lathe takes practice, but the lathe makes quick work of any internal thread for which you have a tap.
> 
> With the tap gripped in a *keyed* chuck in the tailstock


 
I've never attempted to power tap Ti, don't think I ever will. :thinking:

The largest I have power tapped so far was 5/8". It was pretty interesting when I did the first one, the tail stock jumped when the tap engaged as I had the lever fully disengagaed. Never happened to me before on smaller sizes. Lesson learned.

I know you mentioned it before & I found out for myself why you say to use a keyed chuck. Luckily there was no mishap but I had one heck of a time trying to get the tap out of the chuck. Which reminds me, I should pick up a spanner wrench for it sometime.




precisionworks said:


> Ti6-4 isn't bad on well fixtured _external _ops (turning, facing, milling, etc.). *Internal work is a different story*. Don't even try to size the hole for a 75% thread as you'll get nothing but trouble - a 75% thread in Ti6-4 requires almost double the torque of a 65% thread and is only marginally stronger. If the job allows, a 55% thread is even more easily tapped. For lubrication a heavy chlorinated & sulfurized oil beats everything else.


 
Thanks for the tips on tapping Ti. :twothumbs
There's one of my problems. The strength of the threads & fit is not critical for the parts I was making so I will try a 55% if I decide to make more of them. The small batch I have now I already threaded with the internal threader.

Tell me about it, I still hate drilling anything smaller than 1/2" with depths more than 1.5" (but that is expected for those depths). And that's using solid carbide to do the initial drilling, then M42 to get where I need, & using my cold air gun for cooling. I only tend to buy solid carbide drills in the exact size I need if I know I will be making a number of what ever I'm making, otherwise I just use whatever I have on hand from all the cheap surplus I've been buying from local shows. For larger than 1/2", HSS does just fine for me blasting cold air. Any tips for this would be great! 





BVH said:


> I bought a Jet horizontal/Vertical bandsaw a few years ago so I'm set in that regard.
> I still need to figure out all of these ccgt, ccmt etc designations.


 
Sounds like you're off to a very well start! If you don't already have some, studying an Enco, MSC, etc catalog will quickly get you familar with inserts. But now that you have the Machinery's Handbook, it should teach you most everything you need to know. Nice tool box & bench.


----------



## precisionworks

> if you tighten the chuck too much won't you score the tap


Every tap that's used for power tapping now has a burnished shank. Both my Super Chucks have nearly new jaws that have yet to score a tap. It's hard to explain how tight the grip is, but it's enough to drive the tap to the bottom of the hole & let it slip when it bottoms out.



> (or have the chuck/arbor spin in the tailstock)


My tailstock has a positive engagement slot so it's impossible for the arbor to spin. My prior lathe lacked this feature but I addressed that by seating the chuck with a 5# solid copper hammer.



> I will try a 55% if I decide to make more of them.


65% is the number I normally drill for, but anything 60% or greater gives almost the same strength as 75%. If there is long thread engagement (more than 1.5D) 50%-55% is satisfactory.



> Any tips for this would be great!


You've heard this a million times already but slow the sfpm down & feed as fast as possible. At the very first sign of dulling immediately resharpen the drill, or better yet resharpen before it gets to that point. On a positive note, Ti6-4 is no worse than 316SS


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> 65% is the number I normally drill for, but anything 60% or greater gives almost the same strength as 75%. If there is long thread engagement (more than 1.5D) 50%-55% is satisfactory.


 
Ok, I'll try 60-65%. :thumbsup:




precisionworks said:


> You've heard this a million times already but slow the sfpm down & *feed as fast as possible*.


 
Actually, I have not....guess I wasn't paying attention on that part.

I never go faster than maybe the third lowest speed I'm set for for with the smallest sizes using cobalt. Most of the time I'm drilling using the two lowest speeds. But I never would have thought to feed faster. With carbide I can feel when I can feed faster but with cobalt I don't get that feeling often, depending on how much larger the hole that is getting opened up. I always assumed feeding faster generated a lot more heat. I've chipped carbide drills from feeding too fast, or so I thought that was the cause. I'll try playing with increasing feed. Thanks again Barry!


----------



## precisionworks

> I always assumed feeding faster generated a lot more heat.


With all the difficult metals there's a fine line where feed is optimum. Large diameter drills can be fed much faster than small diameter drills but the published speed-feed tables often omit this information. 

Imagine that the titanium part is clear & you can watch the chip being formed while the drill advances. A light or slow feed will produce a thin chip that partially fills the drill's flutes. A maximum feed will produce a thick chip that fills the flutes nearly 100%. The thicker the chip the more heat is being removed by the tool because there is almost zero rubbing of the cutting edges. 

Ti6-4 is easy to machine compared to AR400, since the hardness is 330 compared to 400. The shop I worked in had no carbide drill bits & only a few were cobalt, so every hole drilled in AR400 was a challenge. SFPM was normally 10-15 with as much feed as possible & heavy flood coolant was always used. Every job was started with a freshly sharpened drill & the tool was resharpened as soon as it showed any dullness ... which might be no more than half a dozen holes. 

Chipping would sometimes occur at the outer edge of the lip where there was a sharp transition to the flute. We would grind a small radius at that transition which helped a lot. You may want to have your resharpening shop do that & see if it reduces or eliminates chipping.


----------



## precisionworks

> if you tighten the chuck too much won't you score the tap


If the tap is a cheap import made of carbon steel the chuck jaws will score the tap since they are harder than the tap shank. I don't believe there's a single carbon steel tap in my shop.

If the tap is HSS from a good manufacturer (OSG, Balax, GTD, etc.) the shanks are as hard or harder than the jaws in my Jacobs Super Chuck. This means that even a high quality drill chuck never really gets a good bite on the tap shank.


----------



## Th232

Thanks for the info Barry, might have to get myself some better taps then.


----------



## precisionworks

> I've chipped carbide drills from feeding too fast, or so I thought that was the cause.


Carbide is certainly the answer for drilling abrasive products but isn't always the best choice for tough to machine metals. Carbide drills (like all things carbide) are inflexible & will chip or even break if overloaded. Most carbide drills have a normal thickness web as opposed to the very heavy web of a cobalt drill, and a heavily webbed drill can be fed faster. On top of all that, carbide drills have to be sent out for regrinding on a diamond wheel while cobalt drills are easily reground on a Borazon (CBN) wheel. 

We don't machine much Ti at the tool & die shop but we run lots of A2, D2 & 4140HT. The owner much prefers cobalt tooling over carbide tooling for all the milling operations (which are done on a Bridgeport type knee mill). Cobalt can't be run quite as fast as solid carbide but it is much more forgiving. You may want to compare a cobalt drill to the solid carbide drill & see how it does for you. FWIW my favorite brand in cobalt is Michigan Drill & both MSC and McMaster carry them.


----------



## BVH

Hit the micro Lotto today. That nice Ace Hardware Golden Rod oil can arrived. Opened the box and my eyes landed on the metal flex hose as it exits the can. It's ripped open like unraveling electrical flex. I email customer service and relate the info and say just a new hose is fine or a replacement product. They apologize and say to discard the product and they will send me a new one. Well of course I "discarded" it right away wanting to follow their instructions closely.

It's 1/4" pipe thread for the connection so I'll just pick up a grease gun type rubber/plastic hose and I'll have two oilers! Not a $200 1236 lathe but none the less, my lucky day.











Does the PM 1236 have ball check type oiler ports and if so,will this tip force oil thru it or do I need something more like a needle point used on a grease gun?


----------



## precisionworks

> will this tip force oil thru it or do I need something more like a needle point used on a grease gun?


The tip on the quart can is pretty big & works well for drizzling Vactra #2 on the ways & into the big oil buttons. You'll likely need a more pointed tip for the smaller buttons.


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> The tip on the quart can is pretty big & works well for drizzling Vactra #2 on the ways & into the big oil buttons. You'll likely need a more pointed tip for the smaller buttons.


 
Correct. I have the same exact quart can (great buy!) but it does not work on the small ball-check ports. I have a cheap one from HorrorFreight (I think) just for those small ports, and use my Golden Rod for squirting Vactra on the ways


----------



## BVH

OK, so one for Vactra and one with a smaller tip for the small ports.


----------



## darkzero

The lathe does come with a small squeeze bottle that will fit the ball valves. I use one of those "high pressure" oil cans. 








The red metal one the right I used to use worked perfectly fine but over time it would leak somewhere leaving some oil where ever it sat. One day I picked up one of those plastic ones from HF when it was on sale for $2 & it's been working great with no leaks at all. Only thing I did to it was add a fine stainless mess filter to the pick up tube but that's really not necessary since the oil going in is clean stright from the bottle anyway. The screw at the top of these style cans is to reduce pressure if you unscrew it, supposedly.

The silver mini grease gun on the left from Snap-On also fits the ball valves but it only holds grease which is used for all my air tools that have zerk fittings. HF now carries these too.

The carriage has ball valves on the right side for the ways but I rarely ever use them too. After using the lathe, I spray & wipe down everything with WD-40, then squirt Vactra directly onto the ways. I do use all the other ball valves though. Only down side I see to this is that it's best to make sure you wipe down the ways first so you limit any small debris that can get caught & passed under the wipers for the ways. Especially after machining cast iron or sanding if you don't cover the ways. Also good to remove the wipers occasionally & clean them too.

I have 2 or 3 of those red cans, not sure where I put the unused ones but your welcome to have the one pictured if you want. Just send me you address & I'll toss it in the mail.


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## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> Carbide is certainly the answer for drilling abrasive products but isn't always the best choice for tough to machine metals.


 
Thanks for all the feeding tips Barry! I think much of it has to do with the larger point angle on most of the carbide drills I have as opposed to the steeper point on my cobalt drills. So much more easier to drill with the carbides & seems to take a lot more heat than than the cobalts before they feel like they will start to seize up. But again, I only have these issue when drilling deeper than 1.5" for diameters smaller than 1/2".


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## BVH

Can't pass up a freebie! Thank you sir. PM incoming.


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## StrikerDown

I have two of those red ones from HF... right from the start the first one would drip from the handle, after a couple weeks started leaking more from the pump than it put in the machine. Poured the remaining oil into the second and the first finally stopped leaking! #2 did the same pattern. Went to Ace (walk in) to see if they had one like Barry uses... nope but I needed a new one so I picked up what they had, looked like the HF one with a flex hose, but it has worked 100%. $7.+-


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## BVH

Got the Machinery's Handbook today. Went right to the inserts area to start learning the different insert designations and then on to the turning feed and speed section. In just 10 minutes, I can get a feel for how indispensable this book is.


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## gadget_lover

In addition the the book, you will find it handy to create or download the charts that represent the same basic information. For example the RPM for turning cover a very broad range. I have a chart that lists the speeds for stock in various diameters and materials from .5 to 4 inches. It fits onto a 4x6 inch card. Twice the diameter is 1/2 the speed, so the chart covers up to 8 inches just by halving the speed. 

Daniel


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## precisionworks

> In just 10 minutes, I can get a feel for how indispensable this book is.



+1

It's almost always quicker to go to Machinery's Handbook or Metals Handbook than to Google for information. It doesn't hold all the answers but it probably covers 90% of what we do on a daily basis.


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## BVH

OK, the ol ticker's working good so it's time to get some tooling. Lathe should be here early next week. I thought I would do this later down the road but I want a really nice QCTP. If I buy a Dorian Super Series 30 BXA, I think, having read here, that many of you use other-than-Dorian or other-than-Aloris holders for cost reasons. If so, what tool holder brands are you using and are you happy with their performance?

I've got right-hand turning/facing, left-hand turning/facing, parting, OD lay down threading, and boring tooling on the way and need some holders. (all indexable)


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## precisionworks

Here's the 1/2" bar I use:







CCGT21.51 Alu-Pro insert from Vic at Rani Tools.


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## wquiles

Ebay is usually my first source for machining tools. I have a few M100 bars, so I feel one of these new M100 sets would be a great way to get started - I have purchased from these folks before and I have been happy:
http://stores.ebay.com/CUTTING-EDGE-TOOL/MICRO-100-CARBIDE-/_i.html?_fsub=1470695014&_sid=90419894&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322


Will


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## BVH

OK, looks like I used the wrong name in my earlier post.  What I was after was opinions of using non Dorian and Aloris wedge thingies that slide onto the QCTP and hold the 5/8" shanks.


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## darkzero

BVH said:


> opinions of using non Dorian and Aloris wedge thingies that slide onto the QCTP and hold the 5/8" shanks.



I remember Barry once saying something that once you use the American tool post holders you'll never go back or can tell the night & day difference. I do have a Dorian QCTP, my most used tool holders are made by Dorian, Manchester, Nickole, & Carmex but all these tool holders are held in China made tool post holders. But I do have a BXA oversized (1" capacity) Dorian tool post holder that holds my knurling tool & a Dorian parting blade holder, they are rock hard compared to the China ones & have a nicer fit & finish.

Although I would love to have all Dorian tool post holders, at full retail I don't even want to think about upgrading. I'm up to like 15 or so tool post holders now so I don't plan on upgrading from the China ones. The American made BXA holders don't pop up much on ebay or get snatched up often & I don't have the patience to keep an eye out for them although I watch for other stuff. 

I've tried a few different variations of the China holders & I'm happy using the China holders that I use (Same manufacterer that LatheMasters uses which I used on my 8x14). The ones I like I used to buy from WT (no China markings on them). They're were the same manufacturer that the ones Shars carries except they don't say Shars on them. But now they get them from Shars & since then I just buy from Shars since they're a tad bit cheaper & arrive quicker. However, on _every_ holder I get, I replace the set screws from Mcmaster.

But these China holders that I use are shorter in length than the Dorian holders (never had a Aloris here at home for comparison). The holders that came with the lathe are even longer than Dorian holders but use smaller set screws & are available on ebay.


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## precisionworks

If you want Aloris/Dorian used (meaning about the same cost as new Chinese) send an email to [email protected] or phone them at (248) 568-6824. Their website has only a partial listing of their entire inventory. If you find a few of what you want the owner (Jeff Dye) is always open to an offer & will combine shipping. 

That's where most of my three dozen blocks came from 

Or look on the website.


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## jcs0001

It appears you have decided on carbide and it's unlikely you'll need shims. However if shims are needed, feeler guages are a good source. I find them at local garage sales / flea markets cheap and they come apart easily.

As far as oil squirt cans, I have yet to find a new one that works well. Fortunately I've sourced some used North American made ones through garage sales and they work very well. Not sure if they are made here any more but the used ones seem very good.

One of the first things I made for my lathe was a carriage stop - it can accept a dial guage or various lengths of 3/8 in. rod. When using the lathe manually I find it very valuable (saves the risk of running the carriage into the chuck :naughty.

Good luck with the lathe - they are a lot of fun and indispensable for doing all sorts of repair work and of course mods of flash lights and all sorts of other things.

John.


----------



## las3r

all the tools listed above would they work good on solid copper ?


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## wquiles

las3r said:


> all the tools listed above would they work good on solid copper ?



If you use the very sharp Aluminum-specific inserts, yes, I have found solid copper is easy to work with


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## las3r

I read on another thread that this would be good also 


http://latheinserts.com/product.sc?p...&categoryId=82

http://latheinserts.com/product.sc?p...&categoryId=82

$72 gets the turning/facing tool plus inserts & the parting tool.

Mesa Industries is the place for boring & threading:

http://www.mesatool.com/index.php?ma...products_id=33

http://www.mesatool.com/index.php?ma...products_id=35

hope they work ok with the copper bar


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## precisionworks

> all the tools listed above would they work good on solid copper ?



That all depends on the alloy. Free machining copper (Alloy 145 aka Tellurium Copper) produces nice, small, broken chips and is easily worked. A 2" diameter rod 12" long is $200 from McMaster.

Ultra conductive copper (Alloy 101 aka OFE copper) produces long, unbroken chips & is far worse to turn than Ti6-4, 4140HT, or 316SS. I use it only for conductive parts. Price is the same as for free machining copper.


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## BVH

Travers sale has a pair of TTC brand "V" blocks - 7" x 4" x 3" on sale for $80. They also have a Starrett brand 123 block on sale for $100.00 Are these good enough sale prices to grab em - not really knowing all the uses they will provide me at this early stage of my novice machinist venture?


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## gadget_lover

Vblocks are often used to support cylinders for milling, drilling and measuring. The cylinder is self centering within the V.

With a precision ground, matched pair you can use the block surfaces as a reference point. I posted a video yesterday (link in the thread about my lathe) that showed using the blocks to ensure that the bearing seats on my lathe spindle were round and not tapered by spinning the spindle while it rested in the V. Note that I said round, and not concentric.  

I'm pretty sure that for many purposes the cheaper blocks will work as well, especially if they are matched. It all depends on how you intend to use it. Sometimes all that matters is whether the faces of the V are smooth, other times you want all sides to be perfectly aligned and of known dimensions.

Daniel


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## precisionworks

> Travers sale has a pair of TTC brand "V" blocks - 7" x 4" x 3" on sale for $80.


All my V-block sets are eBay items & I have at least half a dozen pair in different sizes. The most used pair is the smallest, made by Starrett, #278 ... over $200 retail but usually under $100 on eBay.



> They also have a Starrett brand 123 block on sale for $100.00


1-2-3 blocks don't need to be terribly precise unless you're using them to make a tall gage block set up. Mine often get used in milling set ups as a stand for an adjustable parallel or a jack, where a piece of mild steel flat bar would also work (but the blocks are always easy to find). Even the $10/pair Chinese blocks are sometimes OK - be sure to check all three dimensions with a micrometer that reads tenths.


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## BVH

I found a Dorian First Time Buyers set at what I think was a fairly good deal and bought it. Everything came in a Dorian tape sealed box with red Dorian plastic containers for all the holders and post. There are so many fake items now days, that I thought it might show up and be a fake. Everything looks genuine but the one thing that was surprising is that the tool post itself is not painted red. It's not painted at all but does have the official looking Dorian yellow round label. Anyone ever seen a non-red Super Quick Change tool post?


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## darkzero

Looks genuine to me. Mine doesn't say wedge lock on the name plate but some do & some don't. Does it have the laser engraving on top?

I wonder how that one slipped through QC. I think it's kind of cool, different. If you got a good price on it I would keep it.


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## wquiles

I personally would not worry at all


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## BVH

darkzero said:


> Looks genuine to me. Mine doesn't say wedge lock on the name plate but some do & some don't. Does it have the laser engraving on top?
> 
> I wonder how that one slipped through QC. I think it's kind of cool, different. If you got a good price on it I would keep it.



Yes, it's laser engraved with the following.






I don't mind the bare metal at all. I just wanted to be sure it is a true Dorian.


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## darkzero

BVH said:


> There are so many fake items now days, that I thought it might show up and be a fake.





BVH said:


> I just wanted to be sure it is a true Dorian.



I wouldn't worry on stuff like this. Just by looking at the quality & finish it looks like genuine Dorian along with everything else in the pics even down to the plastic wrap. And if it is fake, some spent a great deal of time knocking off this one even down to Dorian's packaging tape. 

I've actually called Dorian a few times & they have always been very helpful. One of the few companies I dealt with that actually let me talk directly to a product engineer (and not by request). Maybe try giving them a call to see if they have any info on why your's is bare? If there were to be an issue with anything they'd probably take care of it for you. It's just doesn't make sense how the person wrapping it in plastic & packaging it would not notice that it didn't have a color on it unless it was intentional or possibly done my machine?

Sure China makes immitations, but unlike electronics, I never seen an exact replica of a USA made tool down to the manufacturer's name & markings such as a tool post. It wouldn't make sense for them to try these days as customs is getting stricter. Why? It would be pretty hard for a shipment of Dorian tool posts marked Made in the USA coming from China to clear customs. Why would a large shipment of Made In the USA products be coming from China if they weren't knock offs? Maybe a few pieces might be able to clear without inspection but it's not worth them replicating it unless in large quantities

Now for products that are originally made in China, such as many electronics, it's much easier for them to make knock offs & sneak them through. Just this past week my boss showed me the latest shipment of Sony AC adapters we received. The labels are getting better & better every time & they even got the colors & text right this time. Cracked one of them open & found the internals to be half the size of the case with a long lead weight in it. Weight felt similar to a genuine adapter but because of how the weight was placed offset in the case due to the components the balance felt funny.


----------



## unterhausen

BVH said:


> Everything looks genuine but the one thing that was surprising is that the tool post itself is not painted red. It's not painted at all but does have the official looking Dorian yellow round label. Anyone ever seen a non-red Super Quick Change tool post?


yes, the machinist just got one at work. Ordered from MSC, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's genuine


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## BVH

That's good to hear, thanks!


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## darkzero

unterhausen said:


> yes, the machinist just got one at work. Ordered from MSC, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's genuine





BVH said:


> That's good to hear, thanks!



That's good to hear that it may have not been a "mistake". Never thought Dorian of all companies would run out of paint. 

Well at least you customize the color yourself, flourescent green or cameleon color comes to mind....or maybe even hot pink. Oh that may not be a good idea, then the wifey might want to use the lathe. 

JK of course. I' wondering if it might have some sort clear protecting finish on it if that's how they are made now.


----------



## Maglin

I use a Prolube oil can to oil my lathe. It comes with a hard and flexible spout and is a very good quality pump. It's actually a pump and not an upgraded squirt bottle. I picked it up at Enco for a decent price. I'll probably buy 2 more the next time I place an order with Enco. All my China cans leak. I couldn't figure out where all the oil was coming from on my bench and finally realized my can wasn't holding oil. I threw both my china can's away.

Thank you for the heads up for sourcing an Aloris second hand. I've been wanting to get a real Aloris for some time now. Hard to save up the $600 for it and the few tool holders. I really like their threading insert and also there indexable carbide holders. I think they are worth the money they want for them.


----------



## BVH

Found my problem a minute later. Tool post all of a sudden turned very, very hard. Didn't realize that this happened after I screwed in the handle. Turn the handle around!!


----------



## BVH

Before I damage any boring inserts, will a 3/8 Ultradex carbide bar with WCMT 21.51 UD21 inserts bore thru 1 3/8 ID probably mild steel tubing with an internal welding seam without damage to the tooling or is the welding bead to hard? If too hard, is there an insert designed for this? (I have a lot of scrap tubing that I ended up with when I chopped up my wife's old strider-glider exercise machine. I don't know why I saved it way back when)

Both 3/8 and 1/2 ultra-dex bars have built in downward angle when secured in a boring holder because of the flat bar tops. I assume that the actual cutting tip should be at dead center regardless of the downward angle? The 1/4 Ultra-dex carbide bar does not have a flat top so is it necessary to set the downward angle manually or should it be flat?


----------



## precisionworks

> will a 3/8" Ultradex carbide bar ... bore thru 1 3/8 ID probably mild steel tubing


It will but your extension is limited to 8X bar diameter (3" is as far as it should be extended). A 3/4" or 1" bar, even in mild steel, will do a much better job.



> with WCMT 21.51 UD21 inserts


The 1/64" corner radius may chip on an interrupted cut like seamed tube.



> the actual cutting tip should be at dead center regardless of the downward angle?


About .010" above dead center gives more clearance under the insert & works well in most materials.


----------



## BVH

Thanks Barry. I'm still learning a lot about inserts so....all other insert specs remaining the same, I could buy the same insert except for it's radius being 1/32" for example? (not saying I would use it for this particular "job"). 10-4 on the 8x's diameter extension of carbide bars. That would be measured from the contact point of the most forward set screw? (the type of set screw with the straight, blunt contact end, versus a typical inverse conical-ended screw)

Is carbide subject to fracturing easily? Is it easy to over-tighten the set screws to the point of fracturing it? 

How about the built-in downward angle on the 3/8 and 1/2 bars versus none built-in on the 1/4 bar?

10-4 on the +.010" above center. I'll do that.


----------



## precisionworks

> all other insert specs remaining the same, I could buy the same insert except for it's radius being 1/32" for example?


Exactly, Bob. Choose the nose radius best suited for the job.



> 8x's diameter extension of carbide bars. That would be measured from the contact point of the most forward set screw?


Measured from the last point of support which is the front face of the block.



> Is it easy to over-tighten the set screws to the point of fracturing it?


Not that I'm aware of & mine get tightened as much as possible with a standard length allen wrench.



> How about the built-in downward angle on the 3/8 and 1/2 bars


The down slope provides clearance under the tip of the insert. Not sure why the 1/4" bar has none.


----------



## BVH

Another ? With the blade and insert type of parting tool - for instance the Dorian Slot Grip setup, what is the best way to seat the insert without doing damage to it? I tried placing the flat face of the insert against a flat, immovable surface and pushing hard and steady but it's got another .025" to go before hitting the back seat.


----------



## precisionworks

> what is the best way to seat the insert without doing damage to it?


A firm push against a hardwood block works well. It may not seat all the way with hand pressure but it should move back to the stop as soon as the tool is used.


----------



## BVH

I don't have a mill yet, but...I bought the two edge finders that Barry linked to a couple days ago in another thread. Then I saw the "Laser Center/Edge Finder". It looks great in the video but is it all it's hyped up to be?


----------



## wquiles

BVH said:


> Then I saw the "Laser Center/Edge Finder". It looks great in the video but is it all it's hyped up to be?



I use it a lot on my knee mill - it works very well


----------



## precisionworks

> I saw the "Laser Center/Edge Finder". It looks great in the video but is it all it's hyped up to be?


The limitation on a laser dot is the size of the dot. The dot in Will's photo is probably .25mm (about .010"). How do you know when half that dot is on a sharp edge & half the dot is off the edge? 

A good mechanical finder like the Starrett or Fisher will give repeatable edge readings to better than .0010", and it isn't hard to repeat .0005" if the dial is turned slowly after the tip runs concentric. The laser (according to info on various websites) depends on the eyesight of the user & the diameter of the dot - with practice you may be able to get within .0020", without practice the error could easily be double that.


----------



## BVH

Thanks Will and Barry. I understand what is being said about the mechanical edge finder specs vrs the size and placement of the laser dot with regard to edge finding accuracy. For center finding, the laser looks to be a great tool. Is there something better?


----------



## precisionworks

> For center finding, the laser looks to be a great tool. Is there something better?



A mechanical edge finder :nana:

All kidding aside, finding center involves finding two edges & splitting the diff. If the mechanical edge finder is off .0005" on each side the center point can be off by .0010". For someone really good with a laser the error is .0020" + .0020" so the center point can be missed by .0040". If that's good enough for the job at hand it should be fine.

Most people think .004" (0.1mm) isn't much. If the part is large & has no visual reference an error of .004" may be no big deal. If it's a 1.5mm trit slot located in a highly visible part of the light body that much error is obvious to anyone with 20/20 vision, even if prescription glasses or contacts are used to achieve 20/20.

My tired old eyes immediately see a slot that's off by .0040". They cannot detect .0020" or less.


----------



## BVH

OK, I got it now. Find both edges. Note them on the DRO and divide by 2.


----------



## gadget_lover

The degree of accuracy needed depends on the job. If you need to put a groove or a shoulder .325 from the edge to mate with another part and you are off by .002 you may have to start over.

On the other hand, if you are just making sure the drill bit will be in the right area, lot's of things will work.

Daniel


----------



## BVH

OK, I'm making a heatsink for someone and I've got it all done except for parting it off. The few things I've made for myself were no more than 5/8" in diameter so parting was a snap with the two parting tools I have. This part is 3" in diameter so I've come up against a new problem. The 3mm parting tool is good for only about 3/4" depth because the tools' nose is 3mm but 3/4" back, it flares out to become the 5/8" shank. My Dorian Slot grip blade is 2mm and it can be move in and out of the wedge-type holder. But....how much? The blade is about 3 3/8" long. If I move it out to expose 1 5/8" of 2mm blade, then only 1 3/4" is left supported in the holder by only 2 of the 4 wedge screws. I would guess this is not satisfactory? What do others use to part large diameter parts?


----------



## gadget_lover

First of all, when parting deep you should make a wide slot so that the parting blade does not bind in the slot. You can do this by 
1) plunge the parting blade in 1/2 inch, using lots of lube and clearing chips as you go
2) move it over 1 blade width towards the scrap side
3) Plunge in the same depth.
4) move back to original position
5) go back to step 1 and repeat 

As an alternative, I've gone so far as to whittle down the scrap side with a left hand tool,tapering it like a cone for an inch or so till It was small enough for the parting blade to finish it off. The left hand tool is for cutting to a shoulder on the right side. 

Some folks just use a hacksaw WITH THE LATHE TURNED OFF or a band-saw and clean it up afterwards with a facing cut.


Daniel


----------



## precisionworks

> What do others use to part large diameter parts?


Use a sharp nosed tool to cut a witness groove located about 1/8" beyond the end of the part. Cut off in band saw, face to dimension in lathe.


----------



## tino_ale

Hey guys,
In preparation of buying a lathe in a few month (after years of wait I'm almost there...) I just ordered a test dial indicator as well as a magnetic arm.

These might sound really n00b questions but since I've ordered premium tools (Mitutoyo 513-424 and a DG61003 Noga arm) I prefer sounding silly than doing something wrong with them :
- how fragile is a test dial indicator ? meaning, is it okay to touch the lever, even if the one I'll have has only 0.5mm (0.02") of range ?
- what happens when you reach a full turn on the dial ? Does it come to a stop? is it damaged ? If there's no stop, hom many turns can you make before risking any damage ?
- consequently when setting-up the arm against a contact surface, is it the right move to lock the arm before the dial even touches the surface, and only use the fine adjustment to make contact ?
- how much contact is enough to get a reliable reading ?
- is there a way to zero the dial if the dial is not aligned when resting ?

Sorry for the obvious questions, just looking to do things right


----------



## precisionworks

Let me try to answer your questions (colored text below)



tino_ale said:


> - how fragile is a test dial indicator ? meaning, is it okay to touch the lever, even if the one I'll have has only 0.5mm (0.02") of range ?
> 
> I wouldn't say that they're tough as nails but neither are they fragile. Try never to drop one onto a hard surface but don't worry about full contact with the work.
> 
> - what happens when you reach a full turn on the dial ? Does it come to a stop? is it damaged ? If there's no stop, how many turns can you make before risking any damage ?
> 
> All have built in mechanical stops.
> 
> - consequently when setting-up the arm against a contact surface, is it the right move to lock the arm before the dial even touches the surface, and only use the fine adjustment to make contact ?
> 
> Totally your call. I try to move close enough to get the needle to midpoint in the bandwidth, lock the mag base, fine adjust for zero.
> 
> - how much contact is enough to get a reliable reading ?
> 
> 1/4 dial rotation is adequate.
> 
> - is there a way to zero the dial if the dial is not aligned when resting ?
> 
> Dials are designed to come to rest at the 9:00-10:00 (left side of 0) position. Preload the spring by bringing the dial to zero. Rotate the collar as needed.



Good information from Long Island Indicator.


----------



## tino_ale

THANKS!


----------



## precisionworks

You're welcome 



> These might sound really n00b questions but since I've ordered premium tools (Mitutoyo 513-424 and a DG61003 Noga arm) I prefer sounding silly than doing something wrong with them ...



Not silly at all. The best tools always cost the most money & your Mitu + Noga combo is as nice as can be found. Most set-up tooling (mag base, indicator, 1-2-3 blocks, fixed & adjustable parallels, etc.) is designed for shop floor use. Same goes for the majority of micrometers, calipers, and other measuring equipment. As long as they are protected when not in use, kept clean & not allowed to rust these items last for decades. 

A cigar smoking friend says that nothing is better than smoking a fine cigar. Or using fine tools.


----------



## tino_ale

precisionworks said:


> A cigar smoking friend says that nothing is better than smoking a fine cigar. Or using fine tools.


My feeling exactly! There must be something going really strong with my primitive brain :naughty:, when I'm using a great tool doing exactly what it's expected to do, I'm like a homo habilis drooling on his newly made stone cutter 

Besides any joke I know that I will eventually get the "real thing" sooner than later, so getting the knockoff first would be somehow a waste. Using a proper and flawless tool is already 50% of the happiness of doing anything with my hands.

Precision tool wise I "only" have a caliper and a micrometer so far, I'll have a lot to buy in the next year or so. I really appreciate the valuable help that can be found here :twothumbs

I will try to screen ebay for a Bison set-tru chuck, a Dorian QCTP and a drill chuck, but OUCH the price of these are no jokes :sick2: I might as well procrastinate on these since they usually come with the lathe.


----------



## precisionworks

> I will try to screen ebay for a Bison set-tru chuck, a Dorian QCTP and a drill chuck, but OUCH the price of these are no jokes :sick2: I might as well procrastinate on these since they usually come with the lathe.



If you work on 1" size lights (Surefire, McGizmo, Mac, etc.) you should consider a 5C collet chuck. Bison makes a very nice Set-Tru version & mine is used at least as much as either the 3-jaw or 4-jaw. Since a 5C is often used on the mill it makes a lot of sense to have one for the lathe.


----------



## tino_ale

The issue I have with collet is that they only accept very near dimension. I read collets typically accept only 0.005" less in diameter before you need to switch to a smaller size. That sounds like a PITA but I don't know how practical they are in real life.


----------



## precisionworks

tino_ale said:


> The issue I have with collet is that they only accept very near dimension. I read collets typically accept only 0.005" less in diameter before you need to switch to a smaller size. That sounds like a PITA but I don't know how practical they are in real life.


It normally isn't an issue. Mic the part & select the closest size. I have a Hardinge set by 64ths of an inch (0.4mm) and would not want a smaller set - every size is needed.


----------



## tino_ale

What do you guys think about the Multifix quick change tool post ?

The original euro version is said to be extremely expensive (actually, haven't found the price) but it's also said there are very nice chinese copies (createtool that pretty much offer comparable toughness and repeatability for a few hundreds.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Multifix-40...rk_Holding&hash=item2eba152921#ht_1243wt_1398

I'm having a hard time determining how practical 40 positions are versus only 2 for the Aloris/Dorian type of QCTP. When would 2 positions not be enough ?

Thoughts ?


----------



## wquiles

tino_ale said:


> What do you guys think about the Multifix quick change tool post ?
> 
> The original euro version is said to be extremely expensive (actually, haven't found the price) but it's also said there are very nice chinese copies (createtool that pretty much offer comparable toughness and repeatability for a few hundreds.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Multifix-40...rk_Holding&hash=item2eba152921#ht_1243wt_1398
> 
> I'm having a hard time determining how practical 40 positions are versus only 2 for the Aloris/Dorian type of QCTP. When would 2 positions not be enough ?
> 
> Thoughts ?



Just go with the wedge-type Aloris/Dorian type. Not only is a proven system, but you can much more easily (and cheaply) buy tool holders for it on Ebay 

Will


----------



## 350xfire

It's cool-looking!


----------



## BVH

With the 40 position I received with my PM1236, it had the ability to be turned 90-180-270-0 with the aid of a detent system. However, there was at least .050" wiggle movement in the post before tightening it down. So it would be only sheer good luck to end up with a precise 90 degree alignment angle of the tool post (or parallel with a boring bar and other tools) to the work axis.

Can someone explain the "40 positions"?


----------



## precisionworks

BVH said:


> ... Can someone explain the "40 positions"?


Sort of maybe:nana:

360/40= 9° of angular rotation per detent. 9X3= 27° which splits the diff between 25° (minimum compound threading angle) & 29° (the angle most often recommended along with 29.5°). 

Why the other 37 positions? :thinking:


----------



## BVH

precisionworks said:


> Sort of maybe:nana:
> 
> 360/40= 9° of angular rotation per detent. 9X3= 27° which splits the diff between 25° (minimum compound threading angle) & 29° (the angle most often recommended along with 29.5°).
> 
> Why the other 37 positions? :thinking:



Somehow, I knew someone would come back with a Smarte Comment!  Et Tu Brute? Maybe what I had was not a 40 position then, because it had detent holes for only the 4 Cardinal directions (as long as my lathe was aligned with True North, East, South or West. (Which it probably is within less than a degree of)


----------



## tino_ale

Some good info and thinking here :
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=39201

A review :
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/multifix-toolholder-clone-review-222390/

snips :


> I dialed in the 40 position
> with a dti for using boring bars, cut-off tools, and
> a jacobs drill chuck. It stays there permanently.
> 
> When I need a quick chamfer,
> sometimes a non-standard (45 degree edge break)
> lead in chamfer (for pressing in a bushing), it's
> a simple manner to take a standard tool, and kick
> it off at an angle.
> 
> At work, I (and every one else) was constantly
> loosening the main nut on the aloris to make a chamfer,
> then having to re-align for cut-off work.





> Mine is to use an Aloris QCTP and set it square to the spindle with a DTI and never move it. The tool itself designates the angle or shape of the cut. Most everything I do ends in parting off, so I actually indicate the tool post with the parting tool installed so the tool is perfectly perpendicular to the spindle axis. By doing this, one thing I don't seem to have is parting problems, which I see a lot of discussion about.
> 
> If I need to chamfer an edge, I use a tool ground to 45°, I don't rotate the tool post 45°. Droppping on a tool holder with a 45° tool is way quicker and more efficient than constantly rotating the tool post.





> You can always achieve the standard 0° or 90° position on the 40 position, and in manual lathework, there is often lots of advantage to cocking the tool one way or the other by one 9° increment to gain boring bar clearance while roughing a large bore (keeps chip clearance between the bar and the hole). Or you might need to get some special tool approach to undercut a facing cut, and one index increment will provide it.
> 
> And if you are making regular usage of a DRO, you do what you can to avoid disturbing the position of the toolpost, so those oddball tool positions can readily be achieved, while permitting you to return seamlessly to regular toolpositions for the rest of the job.



Conclusion : whatever works for you :shrug:

Plus :
- price compared to Dorian or Aloris
- great toughness and rigidity
- excellent repeatability (said to hold 0.0003" easily)
- many positions available without throwing off your tool post alignment (great to quickly chamfer with the same tool aligned differently, get a different tool angle, get some tool clearance etc)

Minus :
- can't make your own tool holders
- can't find dirty cheap holders off ebay
- cutoff tool holder isn't great apparently

availabe here :
http://www.createtool.com

I think it does really deserve our consideration.

I would add something else. In the wedge type QCTP design, the locking motion pushes the tool holder downwards. That puts pressure on the height setting screw. I've read that it's quite common to bend the adjustment screw on cheapo holders just locking them hard.
In fact, even on quality holders I'm surprised the tool height can repeat precisely. 
The Multifix design applies no force downwards while locking. It is entirely independent and I think it's a good thing.

Finally about the cheap holder one can find off ebay : does it make sense to use cheapo holders with premium tool posts like Aloris/Dorian ? I'm not sure. I see repeatability as a chain, and if one link is weak, the chain is broken. And quality holders are about the same price as the Multifix ones... so it might not be a deal breaker after all ? Additionnaly, the ability to easily set your tools by small increment might negate the need for some tools that would have been needed to adress those needs without moving the tool post.

Not there yet but I'll be seriously chewing on this QCTP choice. Tempted by both designs!!


----------



## precisionworks

tino_ale said:


> In fact, even on quality holders I'm surprised the tool height can repeat precisely.


Dorian claims a few millionths & it's so small I cannot see it on my tenths (.0025mm) reading indicator.


----------



## tino_ale

Regardless of the fit and finish and precision of both design, can you see the benefit of intermediate positions without changing the TP alignment or do you think it's a moot point ?


----------



## precisionworks

tino_ale said:


> Regardless of the fit and finish and precision of both design, can you see the benefit of intermediate positions without changing the TP alignment or do you think it's a moot point ?


I'm not sure one way or the other (shocking that I have no opinion on this  )

I don't move the TP more than a handful of times each year. The compound gets repositioned as needed & that happens more often. The reason that many people want intermediate TP positions is so that a shearing tool can be used as a scraping tool (aka form tool). That works OK in softer materials but not in anything 30 HRc or above unless it's just a tiny touch. 

Chamfers are often cut on lathe work & the easiest way (for me) to do this is to reverse the spindle & feed a boring bar tip through the far side of the part.


----------



## unterhausen

precisionworks said:


> Chamfers are often cut on lathe work & the easiest way (for me) to do this is to reverse the spindle & feed a boring bar tip through the far side of the part.


I don't see how this works off-hand, need a picture. I have been using my Mesa threading tool, but that only gives you a shallow chamfer


----------



## 49thdiver

Wow, I have just landed in this forum and I can not tell you how helpful this was. I have just picked up an old lathe, Not even picked out the spot for it in the shop yet, and I am amazed by how much wisdom is in this post and how much info there is on this site. The trouble now is going to be tearing myself away from reading here to start turning.

Thx Peter



wquiles said:


> I know that is your own opinion/experience, but since we are trying to give advice to somebody starting with a lathe right now, given the technology available today, we should not give advice based only on what worked well in the past since we now have available new materials/inserts that make getting started with a lathe even easier.
> 
> ........................ Again, my own biased opinion. I am not trying to start a religious-type discussion between HSS and inserts. Just trying to give the guy with the new lathe an alternate suggestion based on my own experience.
> 
> Will


----------



## gadget_lover

unterhausen said:


> I don't see how this works off-hand, need a picture. I have been using my Mesa threading tool, but that only gives you a shallow chamfer



I'm not sure WHY he's doing it this way, but as I see it...
Chamfer the tailcap end by putting the the body in the lathe with the head end sticking out. Set the compound to the desired depth and mount a right hand boring bar. This lets you run the lathe in reverse and cut the edge that is on the far side.

Personally, I just set the compound to the desired angle, then set a left hand tool on the front of the tool post and rotate it to the left so that the cutting tip is perpendicular to the cut. Then I just advance the compound to cut the chamfer.

I find the use of a mechanic's square makes it dead simple to align the compound again. I leave one by the lathe.

Daniel


----------



## precisionworks

gadget_lover said:


> I'm not sure WHY he's doing it this way,


Because nothing has to be moved :nana:

The compound is always set at 29° more or less. Cutting that angle with a boring bar requires running the spindle in reverse & feeding on the far side of the part. Habit I guess. Fast too.


----------



## darkzero

gadget_lover said:


> I'm not sure WHY he's doing it this way



I also chamfer this way 90% of the time. It's much more convienent this way & I just use that method naturally. Sometimes I even machine tapers this way too. Don't remember why or when I started doing it this way but I probably learned it from Barry if he mentioned the method in the past.


----------



## las3r

Does anyone no any good sales going on right now for any good lathe bits ? 

Mostly for cutting grooves and cutting mags


----------



## wquiles

las3r said:


> Does anyone no any good sales going on right now for any good lathe bits ?
> 
> Mostly for cutting grooves and cutting mags




The grooving tool to get (in my humble opinion) is the Top Notch system from Kennametal. TONS of cheap inserts on Ebay, specially the size #3. The same tool holder can use different inserts to do various styles of grooving (including threading), as seen here in this post:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?333154-best-grooving-tool&highlight=Top+Notch

Here is one on Ebay (for external threading/grooving):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-kenname...950?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cff7715d6


This top notch tool is what I use for grooving bodies/heads on my custom 1xD's.


Now you also say on sale "now". Just set up a search on Ebay and get notified daily. Eventually you will find a good one 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

las3r said:


> Does anyone no any good sales going on right now for any good lathe bits ?
> 
> Mostly for cutting grooves and cutting mags


The term "lathe bits" has many interpretations. One is a square bar of HSS with a ground edge. Another is a square bar of steel with a brazed on carbide tip. Probably what you want is a tool holder that uses carbide inserts (like those that Will referenced).

This one has a 3/4" shank & is too large for your tool blocks but it's the type to look for: Kenna Top Notch


----------



## BVH

While not for my lathe, do the quick change R-8 collet systems for mills provide decent accuracy - accuracy equal to individual draw bar type R-8 collets? There's one on Ebay for $350. ERF-38740-D - ER-40. Can't see a brand unless ERF is a brand. I forget what the ER40 and lower numbers mean? I would be using them on a small, not a mini, mill drill like the grizzly 0704.


----------



## darkzero

BVH said:


> While not for my lathe, do the quick change R-8 collet systems for mills provide decent accuracy - accuracy equal to individual draw bar type R-8 collets? There's one on Ebay for $350. ERF-38740-D - ER-40. Can't see a brand unless ERF is a brand. I forget what the ER40 and lower numbers mean? I would be using them on a small, not a mini, mill drill like the grizzly 0704.



You should be fine using R8 collets. The ER number is the size of the collets with ER 8 being the smallest & ER 40 being the largest. It's not exact but a ER 40 collet is close to 40mm in dia, ER 32, close to 32mm, etc. So each ER collet family will have a max size (shank), ie. 1"(?) for ER 40, 3/4" for ER 32, 3/16" for ER 8. ER collets also have a wider clamping range for each individual size collet compared to R8. I believe ER collets also have better clamping area compared to R8.

Using a collet chuck can make collet changes quicker & easier especially with larger full size knee mills like a BP where you would have to reach way up on top to loosen the drawbar, break the R8 collet loose, then proceed to unscrew the remaining of the drawbar to take the R8 collet out. But in theory with a collet chuck you would loose ridgity as a R8 collet, you're tool would be as close to/inside the spindle as you can get. But I don't know, I've never used a collet chuck in a vertical mill, only R8.

What's important is you have to think about the size of the collet type. An ER 40 might be too big for a smaller size mill. A collet chuck will also eat up valuable Z axis capacity on a smaller mill. The ER 40 might sound better cause you can go up to 1" but you also have to think about whether a small mill will benefit using a 1" tool or even run one at all depending on what it is. They make smaller sizes for a reason. I think ER 40 might be too large for a Grizzly 0704. You might be better off just using R8.


----------



## tino_ale

Hey guys,

As I am ordering a PM1236 so I need to build a shop list. I'm starting from scratch in the lathe business so I'm focussing on the must-have first.

Setting up, cleaning, break-in, lubes... :
- honda spray cleaner and polish or WD40 for cleaning
got it
- precision bubble level
- headstock oil to replace original oil after beak-in
- hard drive or strong magnet
got it
- mason feet or equivalent
- way oil
- ball "nipple" grease gun

Minimum cutting tooling :
- QCTP PM "kit" =RH and LH cutting tool + straight cutting tool + boring bar+ DCMT/DCGT Inserts or CCGT/CCMT
got it but don't know which inserts I should request
- another small boring bar for small ID boring
- parting tool
- threading tool for OD threading
- threading tool for ID threading
- center drill
- drill bits set
- steady rest, follow rest, drill chuck, 3-jaws and 4 jaws chucks, spindle plate, dead and live center, 
got it : all included in PM preferred package

Other tooling :
- magnetic base + dial indicator
got it
- 6" caliper and 0-1" micrometer
got it

Before I start asking questions on each piece I need to source, do you guys think this list is reasonably complete ?
Any help much appreciated


----------



## gadget_lover

In addition to the above... 

A dial test indicator (DTI) in .0005 or better for precision measurements of concentricity. The dial indicator usually has long travel of an inch or more. The DTI is frequently .100 inch movement.

The inserts have to match your tools. Matt should be able to tell you what sizes and shapes you need for the tools that you got. It is likely that there is a number like CCMT 32.50 somewhere in the packing. CCMT is the shape and 32.50 is the size. There are different grades of carbide, some of which are hard and sharp (but brittle) and others that are less fragile that can handle interrupted cuts. You'll have to figure out what you need to match the work you will be doing.

You'll also need cutting oil and tapping fluid.

Dan


----------



## tino_ale

What I have is a DTI, what I don't is a dial indicator (my bad). I don't feet I'll need a DI immediately, in fact, I'm not sure I'll need it at all.

Thanks for the other info.:thumbsup:


----------



## gadget_lover

tino_ale said:


> What I have is a DTI, what I don't is a dial indicator (my bad). I don't feet I'll need a DI immediately, in fact, I'm not sure I'll need it at all.
> 
> Thanks for the other info.:thumbsup:



You will want a dial indicator (with various tips) for centering parts in a 4-jaw. It also works better on rough pieces or pieces with slots that will snag the DTI's probe.

A depth gage is also nice for checking how deep you've cut a pocket. 

A large part of machining is a matter of measuring parts and marking parts. For instance if you want to duplicate a flashlight you will need to measure lengths, depths, angles, threads, bores and diameters. If you are making a flashlight from plans you will need to measure the same things to ensure that your parts agree with the plans.

Dan


----------



## tino_ale

Can you recommend a lathe operation handbook ?


----------



## gadget_lover

tino_ale said:


> Can you recommend a lathe operation handbook ?



Many recommend the southbend "how to run a lathe" which is available online via PDF. I searched google and found this: http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/3789.pdf . The book is 100 years old (copyright 1914 ) but the same basic processes still work.

I learned a lot about working a lathe by reading the US Army's online training manual. The section on lathes is fairly up to date. At one time the manual was publicly available directly from the Army web site. Security concerns shut that down but copies are available from other sources. A copy is available at http://metalwebnews.com/machine-tools/fmt.html .

It's a lot of reading.  After all that reading I looked long and hard for videos. There were not too many available 10 years ago. The MIT metal working series had some of the best videos. Start at http://techtv.mit.edu/videos/142-machine-shop-1. 

The way I look at learning is that first you need to see what's going on without understanding it. That gives you a point of reference to attach to the knowledge. Then you need to read about it and learn the "what" and "why". Videos can help there. Then you test the knowledge by attempting the skills, studying any aspect that did not go exactly as you expected. The objective is to be able to confidently approach a task with an expectation that there will be no surprises.

Daniel


----------



## tino_ale

Excellent ! That should be enough to keep me busy for years


----------



## gadget_lover

It's really much less complex than it seems. You will learn quickly.

It's my opinion that metalworking is a science, not an art. That means that if you know what the metal is and follow the proper procedures you should get the same results every time. This is the cornerstone of modern manufacturing. 

On the other hand, metalworking is much more forgiving than one would expect from reading the manuals. That's where the art comes in. As an example, while there is a perfect speed to turn a 2 inch bar of 6061 aluminum, you can do it successfully over very wide range of speeds. That's why most lathes have only 6 to 12 spindle speeds. Most small lathes with variable speed don't have a way to measure the RPM so you set it to a speed that is "about right". 

You'll find that after a while you will get to know the lathe that you are using and set the speeds and feeds without thinking much about it.

Daniel


----------



## precisionworks

Speed (SFPM) is the easiest variable.

Aluminum - top speed on the machine.

Mild steel & alloy steels - chips should peel off brown & drop blue. No color means too slow, peeling blue or red is too fast.

Titanium (6-4) 100 SFPM more or less for turning or boring, 50 SFPM for drilling, 25 SFPM for reaming. All the feed the machine will handle. Using full flood allows running up to twice as fast where the tool is fully exposed.


----------



## tino_ale

Ok, I'm really having a hard time picking up my cutting tools!
Thanks to this page, I get how the codes can be read, but that doesn't mean I know what to choose :shrug:.

I would really appreciate a "set", if no a whole set, at least a set of boring tools, a set for facing/turning, a set for threading (int/ext) then a parting tool. Buying each individual tool and inserts is going to drive me nuts.
I would appreciate solid carbide tools is the price is not outrageous. I really don't want to buy those things twice, I want to get it right the first time.
I would really appreciate if I could use the same inserts on different tools, at least where applicable.

I've noticed Kennametal "top notch" system, it seems good but I'm afraid of the proprietary system. Should I stay with the standard tool system ?

For each tool I will need aluminimum specific inserts for Al and delrin, and other stronger inserts for titanium and harder materials.

What a mess ! oo:


----------



## gadget_lover

> Minimum cutting tooling :
> - QCTP PM "kit" =RH and LH cutting tool + straight cutting tool + boring bar+ DCMT/DCGT Inserts or CCGT/CCMT
> got it but don't know which inserts I should request



It sounds like you already have a "set".  The best bet is to reach out to Matt and ask him what he sent you. The next best is to decode what you have. That's a bit more tricky.

But first a word to reassure you. You do not NEED to use a specific insert for each type of metal. Some just work a bit better than others. Some give a better surface finish or last longer in certain circumstances. In reality, the humble triangular insert without coating has been used by millions of home shops to do just about everything. The super-duper inserts that Will and Will favor will work really well, but you can still do a good job with a super cheap and basic set like this one: http://www.shars.com/products/view/2752/12quot_Indexable_Carbide_Turning_Tool_Set which uses triangular inserts for all 5 tools.


Now back to your problem. The main problem is to figure out what size fits your holders. Each holder is designed for a specific shape (match what you have to the carbide depot site) with a specific way to mount (beveled hole, strait hole, no hole, etc) and a specific thickness. Last but most confusing is the "size" which is measured as an "inscribed circle". All of these are on that page that you pointed to at carbide depot.

An inscribed circle is the largest circle that is totally within the outline of the insert. The size is represented in steps of 1/8 inch, so all you need to do is find the largest circle that fits on an insert and convert that to eighths.  I don't have a good way to do that. I have a template for drawing circles that has many circles, so I can lay it on an insert to see what size fits within the outline of the insert. A 1/4 inch inscribed circle is a "2".

The thickness is represented as the number of sixteenths. That's just to confuse the innocent. A 1/4 inch thick insert is a "4".

The clearance angle is the slant on the side. You need a good protractor and a good eye to figure out the angle on a small insert.  There are suggested angles for aluminum, plastics and steel. You can get away with being "close". 

The rest of the specifications basically are fine tuning. There's a thread or two here that go into those in detail. 

Dan


----------



## tino_ale

Thanks for the insight.

In fact I am considering getting my tools separately and not the one supplied by Matt. I haven't decided yet. My thinking is I don't want to get some "okay" tools now and buying them twice because after a month I realize I can get something really nicer at an acceptable cost. That would leave me with some unecessary paperweights and unused inserts. I hate unused tools !


----------



## gadget_lover

Getting them separately can be a good thing. You know how to find the maximum shank size for your lathe and tool post, right?

I suspect that you will get used to having unused tools. You will find that sometimes that 3/4 inch shaft on your favorite tool will not fit into the place you need to reach, so you will pick up some with smaller shafts. Sometimes you'll need to grind a tool to make that precise groove, or to trepan a groove for a spring. Then there will be that itty bitty flashlight that needs a 1/4 inch diameter solid carbide boring bar. 

As you can see, the list will go on and on.  

May I suggest that you not worry about "OK" vs "the best" tools? The difference is not as apparent as you might think when you are doing work at a home shop. In many cases a proper insert makes much more difference than the tool that it mounts in. The different sizes and shapes are mainly to maximize production rates. Home shops don't need to worry about making 7.5 parts per insert. 


Daniel


----------



## tino_ale

Hi Daniel,
I've done some more reading and searching (it's insanely time consuming, but part of the deal!). Indeed, most people seem to be happy with chinese cheapo tools. Some do complain though about soft tools offering poor insert holding capabilities, poor holding screws and rapidly degrading insert pocket.
So it seems as long as I stay away from the cheapest tools I should be okay.

In the 5pc. set you linked I can't envision any use for the two tools on the right.
The 7pc. set has a nice picture showing how each tool is to be used, and it has a ext. threading tool and a parting tool... hum maybe a good start. C*** D*** and W*** inserts shape all seem to be very common, if not the most common in hobbyist shops. The page linked also provide some guidance to buy the correct inserts, that's a plus.

According to Matt the maximum tool shank size I can fit on the PM1236 is 5/8", and since I don't have access to a mill, I hope that is without the tool holder bottoming out. Do you think I should stick with 1/2" just to be safe ?

Cheers


----------



## BVH

Stick with BXA/5/8" tooling. The larger, the better for rigidity. I've had no issues with 5/8" and nothing is bottom'd out.


----------



## gadget_lover

tino_ale said:


> In the 5pc. set you linked I can't envision any use for the two tools on the right.



The two on the right are your normal turning tools. Use a different nose radius for finish and roughing. The far right I use to turn from right to left. Because they are cheap I have several sets with different radius and different inserts mounted. All I have to do now is to remember which shape and coating is to be used for which task.  I have several boxes of T- inserts to fit them.



tino_ale said:


> ]
> The 7pc. set has a nice picture showing how each tool is to be used, and it has a ext. threading tool and a parting tool... hum maybe a good start. C*** D*** and W*** inserts shape all seem to be very common, if not the most common in hobbyist shops. The page linked also provide some guidance to buy the correct inserts, that's a plus.



I have this set also for my other lathe. It works fine but I need all those different insert shapes to use it efficiently.



> According to Matt the maximum tool shank size I can fit on the PM1236 is 5/8", and since I don't have access to a mill, I hope that is without the tool holder bottoming out. Do you think I should stick with 1/2" just to be safe ?
> 
> Cheers



There is no need to guess. Put a holder in the toolpost and set it as low as it will go. Measure from the center of the spindle to the 'floor' of the holder. This dimension is the absolute maximum size of the shank of any tool that you can use. Any larger will put you above center. If you measure a bit more than 5/8 then you will be fine with 5/8 tools. If it is exactly 5/8 you should go down to 1/2 shank. 

I don't think you get any extra stiffness from a 5/8 tool if you have to mill 1/8 off the bottom of the holder. While you gain stiffness in one area you loose it where it's clamped. 

Besides, I see BVH has that lathe and agrees that 5/8 works for him. 

Daniel


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## tino_ale

BVH said:


> Stick with BXA/5/8" tooling. The larger, the better for rigidity. I've had no issues with 5/8" and nothing is bottom'd out.


Thanks for the confirmation !
I'll stick to 5/8" tooling for now.


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## precisionworks

Duplicate


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## precisionworks

the best tooling in the world can be purchased on ebay for about the same price as Chinese tooling.


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## tino_ale

Ok, this is a draft list of a Shars order :
- turning set
- boring bar set
- internal threading bar
- precision level
- 1/4 spotting drill
- 3/8 spotting drill

I have read mixed feedback on shars tooling. :shrug:

I do not plan to get a kurling tool for now, that one I know costs a lot and I need to get it right the first time. Haven't searched enough yet. I am focussing on the basics for now (though I do hope I get decent tools for these too).

If you think I'm about to waste my hard earned $ (actually €  ) or if you just think I could make more from my money if I buy from another source, please do tell.
I know it's possible to score high end tooling from ebay for a bargain but to do this you need to know quite well what to look for, and keep an eye on auctions for a while until the tool you're looking for is spotted. I don't think I can do that for now.


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## gadget_lover

I don't see any HSS bits for grinding specialty cutters. You can start here:
http://www.shars.com/product_categories/view/21807/Square__Rectangular

You might also need to look at solid carbide boring bars if you are doing precision deep boring. Steel boring bars start chattering if the stickout is much more than 3.5 times the bar diameter. A 5/8 bar is good for a 2.5 inch hole. Much beyond that and you need a bigger bar or one made from carbide.

I've had no complaints about Shars. I don't expect fancy packaging. 

It seems to me that the functional difference between cheap and expensive tools would be the fit of the insert in the pocket and the hardening of surfaces that may need it. For example I have a set of 1/4 inch tools from Harbor freight that work well enough that I bought a second set. The screw hole on one holder (out of 10) was poorly tapped and the screw broke as I tried to remove it. 

Daniel


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## tino_ale

I have decided to get a Dorian first time buyer set , it's not cheap but the value is there and I think it's a good starting point to say the least.
The included tools are all interesting and cover the basic operations nicely. The inserts type they use are easy enough to source it seems.

Finally I really like the 2-in-1 OD+ID threading tool.


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## wquiles

+1

Not cheap, but a great starting point on very high quality parts


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## precisionworks

tino_ale said:


> I have decided to get a Dorian first time buyer set , it's not cheap but the value is there


+1

Bought that set back when I ran the little South Bend, sold it for almost what it cost & bought the CXA set for the current machine. The Dorian SQCTP is the absolute best available IMHO. Great choice. It will spoil you


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## BVH

+2 - I bought that set right out of the gate.


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## tino_ale

According to this page the Dorian turning tool provided in the set (the one on top) is only good for turning, not for facing.

I am wondering why the triangle insert doesn't have a larger lead angle (say 10°), wouldn't that allow both turning and facing operation with one tool ? I don't get the advantage of keeping one side of the insert parallel (or almost parallel) to the shoulder (or the OD in the case of the facing tool).

Can someone enlighten me ?


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## precisionworks

That insert & holder do a nice job facing from the center feeding outward (the reverse of "normal" facing direction). Works only if the part has a depression or hole in the center, something like a center drill hole is perfect. 



> ... the Dorian turning tool provided in the set (the one on top) is only good for turning, not for facing.


Good thing I didn't read the instructions


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## tino_ale

Good thing to know that it can be done! I suppose it also works when facing from the OD towards the centerline of the work ?

One more question. I need to buy inserts for my tools. I'll be machining 6061, 7075 Al as well as 6-4 titanium.
I guess ideally I should have an insert for :
- roughing Al
- roughing Ti
- fine finish on Al
- fine finish on Ti.

That's four different types of inserts, I'll would be very often swapping inserts on my tools.

Can I lower the number of inserts ? For example :
- roughing Al + fine finish on Ti
- roughing Ti
- finishing Al

Or even (?) :
- one for finishing Al
- one for roughing Al, roughing Ti, finishing Ti

Of course I'm trying to lower the number of different inserts type I should get but it has to work decently...

Your input is much appreciated :thumbsup:


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## precisionworks

tino_ale said:


> Good thing to know that it can be done! I suppose it also works when facing from the OD towards the centerline of the work ?



The tool only cuts in the direction shown by the arrow:







That means it either cuts from right to left (toward the headstock) or from center to outside.


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> The tool only cuts in the direction shown by the arrow:


Good thing I don't follow instructions - I would have no problem using that tool to face a part from the outside towards the inside. Heck, I have more than once used a boring bar to face a part from the inside to the outside :devil:


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## wquiles

tino_ale said:


> Good thing to know that it can be done! I suppose it also works when facing from the OD towards the centerline of the work ?
> 
> One more question. I need to buy inserts for my tools. I'll be machining 6061, 7075 Al as well as 6-4 titanium.
> I guess ideally I should have an insert for :
> - roughing Al
> - roughing Ti
> - fine finish on Al
> - fine finish on Ti.
> 
> That's four different types of inserts, I'll would be very often swapping inserts on my tools.
> 
> Can I lower the number of inserts ? For example :
> - roughing Al + fine finish on Ti
> - roughing Ti
> - finishing Al
> 
> Or even (?) :
> - one for finishing Al
> - one for roughing Al, roughing Ti, finishing Ti
> 
> Of course I'm trying to lower the number of different inserts type I should get but it has to work decently...
> 
> Your input is much appreciated :thumbsup:



You don't need that many inserts. I would say you need only two:
- Aluminum-specific insert: for Aluminum, brass, Delrin, and finishing of Titanium. Look at my started threads in this sub-forum - a couple of thread cover these Al-specific inserts in great detail (and plenty of photos!)
- Titanium-specific insert: for medium/heavier cuts on Titanium and steel. Then finish with insert above.

Now, if you were running a business, and had CNC equipment which you want to maximize production (minimize time) and extend the life of the inserts, then yes, I would see the desire for more job-specific inserts. But as a hobby/small business, specially on a manual lathe, I would bet those two insert types above will cover 95%+ of all of your hobby machining needs.

Just my two cents, and pretty much verbatim what I do myself


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## gadget_lover

precisionworks said:


> The tool only cuts in the direction shown by the arrow:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That means it either cuts from right to left (toward the headstock) or from center to outside.



That particular tool ( based on the drawing and the description )has very little clearance if you are trying to face with it. In this picture you will note that the insert does not extend across the top of the tool. Trying to face off anything more than a few 1/1000 would rub against the holder. Note that the other holder "STFP" locates the insert so that the top of the tool is covered by the insert. 

When I face a part it is often to clean up an angled cut from sawing a piece off of a bar. In one revolution the depth of cut may go from 0.0 to .025 inch. 

There are better ways to have said all this, but words are not my friend today. 

Dan


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## precisionworks

gadget_lover said:


> ... When I face a part it is often to clean up an angled cut from sawing a piece off of a bar. In one revolution the depth of cut may go from 0.0 to .025 inch.



Center drilling delrin bar both for drill starter & for tool clearance:





Touch insert tip to part to establish zero setting:





Position insert in starter hole, move carriage forward .025":





Start spindle, engage cross feed:





Total clearance under tool tip is around .030" more or less. 



> ... Trying to face off anything more than a few 1/1000 would rub against the holder.


It's a good thing that this tool doesn't know what it cannot do :nana:


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## gadget_lover

OK, I'll bite.

Since I have several tools that do a great job of facing in the conventional way, what's the advantage that makes this your go to tool for facing?

I always do the facing before drilling, based on the simple assumption that drilling into a surface that is slanted will stress the drill more. Once it's faced both flutes of the drill will cut equally.

Dan


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## precisionworks

gadget_lover said:


> ... what's the advantage that makes this your go to tool for facing?



I have no favorite facing or turning tool & usually pick one out of half a dozen likely looking candidates. The best tool is usually the one that has a sharp insert that doesn't need to be changed out 

The images were taken to answer Tino's question:



> I am wondering why the triangle insert doesn't have a larger lead angle (say 10°), wouldn't that allow both turning and facing operation with one tool ?


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## edgar

I will receive my first lathe next week , and i want to work on some small brass parts , what tool or insert should i use for thise metal ?
i got a tool pack with insert coming with the lathe and bought an AL insert on ebay also .(CCMT) .


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## wquiles

edgar said:


> I will receive my first lathe next week , and i want to work on some small brass parts , what tool or insert should i use for thise metal ?
> i got a tool pack with insert coming with the lathe and bought an AL insert on ebay also .(CCMT) .



An Aluminum-specific insert should work great on brass. Free-machining brass is very easy to machine:












Will


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## edgar

Thanks for the advice Will


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## edgar

For the drill bit , one need some special short one ? because i noticed my regular drill bit is flexing some when it touch the part to be drilled.
I mean i do the center hole , but still the bit want to move a hair sideway.

I had to drill a part with OD 8mm with a 7.5mm hole ,in brass , took me 3 try to get it right lol.


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## BVH

You need to pick up a Center Drill set. Something like:

w.globalindustrial.com/p/tools/Drills-Drivers-Bits/Bits-Metalworking/3-piece-center-drill-set-2-25-and-315-mm?utm_source=google_pr&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Bits-Metalworking-google_pr&infoParam.campaignId=T9F&gclid=CPLwvLjfo7kCFYZ_QgodshAAxg


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## edgar

I have the centerdrill , it came with the lathe , my question is about the regulal drill bit that flex a bit .
Is there some special drill set made for lather use , and maybe shorter than regular one ?


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## brickbat

edgar said:


> ...maybe shorter than regular one ?



Over here, they are called screw machine drills. They are my go-to drill bits for the mill and lathe...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_bit_sizes


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## precisionworks

A lathe live center has an included angle of 60° & a center drill has the identical angle. Use a center drill to make a hole that matches the live center.

A twist drill can have 118°, 135°, 142°, etc. included angle. Use a spotter with an angle that matches the drill. When the point angle & the spot are identical the point cannot walk, even when the drill bit is 300mm long. Shorter drills (aka screw machine drills) are better & flex less but are sometimes too short to drill all the way through a part.






A 120° set works well if most of your drills are 118° (standard point angle)


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## tino_ale

It seems many people use a center drill as a spotting drill, with good results, but the center drill is for centers, a spotting drill to start a hole prior to using a regular drill.


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## precisionworks

The best thing that can be said is that spotting with a center drill is better than not spotting at all. But the angles are way off ...


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## edgar

Great , i need to get one of those spotter bit now

Iam addicted , and turning brass is so smooth , i like it .

My second part , not done yet btw .


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## wquiles

edgar said:


> Great , i need to get one of those spotter bit now
> 
> Iam addicted , and turning brass is so smooth , i like it .




Awesome to hear - congrats :thumbsup:

Brass and (to a lesser extent) 6061 Alu are easier to machine/learn with, BUT they can also cause you to get away with less than perfect machining methods/process. Later on, when you machine with steel and Titanium, you will refine and re-learn a few things as with these metals (Ti, specifically) not having the right surface speed and/or lubrication can get you in trouble quickly. So enjoy and learn on Brass/Al, but keep in the back on your mind that these are the "easy" metals


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