# At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?



## F250XLT (Jun 22, 2012)

I know this has been discussed in the past, but I wanted to hear some fresh feedback regarding this topic...

IMO a custom light is one made by hand in small quantities, born from an original design. But I think there comes a point in time when that light is no longer a custom. Once it has been produced by automated machining multiple times, and is basically in "in stock" item, do you think it is still a "Custom" light? Why should lights be any different from knives? If the major components were made by the hands of the designer, it is a custom. If it was all machine made, it is a production run...no matter what the qty is. 

Also, a manufacturer that offers "options" when ordering is not a "Custom" light IMO. It is a light that is customized, but definitely not in the same category as a custom. 

Perhaps we should have a sub-forum called "Machine Made Original Designs" :laughing:


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## aau007 (Jun 22, 2012)

You are getting granular with the word "Custom". 

In my dictionary, "Custom" is make to order. Does not matter it is hand or machine made. "In stock" options are not "Custom" to me, they are just, Options, like when you buy a new car and select options. Custom can be all original from the ground up or can be modified from existing, as long as make to order and not on a ready to order option list.


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## shelm (Jun 22, 2012)

hds is custom and all hds related discussion belongs to custom section.


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## F250XLT (Jun 22, 2012)

shelm said:


> hds is custom and all hds related discussion belongs to custom section.



HDS has never been a custom.


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## fishndad (Jun 22, 2012)

aau007 said:


> You are getting granular with the word "Custom".
> 
> In my dictionary, "Custom" is make to order. Does not matter it is hand or machine made. "In stock" options are not "Custom" to me, they are just, Options, like when you buy a new car and select options. Custom can be all original from the ground up or can be modified from existing, as long as make to order and not on a ready to order option list.



Yep! As soon as you alter from or ad to the basic form that is offered you have made it a Custom light.
Sounds trivial but thats it.
I would say that there are custom lights that are built with an incredibly high level of craftsmanship (HDS).
But they are no more custom than a Solarforce with a surefire drop-in.
There just better.


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## F250XLT (Jun 22, 2012)

fishndad said:


> Yep! As soon as you alter from or ad to the basic form that is offered you have made it a Custom light.
> Sounds trivial but thats it.
> I would say that there are custom lights that are built with an incredibly high level of craftsmanship (HDS).
> But they are no more custom than a Solarforce with a surefire drop-in.
> There just better.



Adding anything to a stock light only makes it a Modified version of the same stock light. I am talking about a true custom, not a lightly pimped stock light. And again, HDS is not a custom light.


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## fishndad (Jun 22, 2012)

F250XLT said:


> Adding anything to a stock light only makes it a Modified version of the same stock light. I am talking about a true custom, not a lightly pimped stock light. And again, HDS is not a custom light.




I got this from Websters.
Custom Made=made to fit the needs or requirements of a particular person 

So, looks like your right if you are refering to having a light Custom Made for you.
Otherwise a custom loght doesnt really exist.
If you bought a custom light that was made for someone else.
Is it still custom?


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## F250XLT (Jun 22, 2012)

fishndad said:


> I got this from Websters.
> Custom Made=made to fit the needs or requirements of a particular person
> 
> So, looks like your right if you are refering to having a light Custom Made for you.
> ...




Not really caring what it states in a dictionary, looking for opinions from CPF'ers.


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## fishndad (Jun 22, 2012)

F250XLT said:


> Not really caring what it states in a dictionary, looking for opinions from CPF'ers.



You have gottin 3 CPFers replys. it just doesnt seem you agree.
You did say (IMO a custom light is one made by hand in small quantities, born from an original design).
Its just thats not what custom means. You dont have to get upset.


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## scout24 (Jun 22, 2012)

Small or one person shop, original design, premium materials, the product of sweat, obsession, and passion for what they do. Be it parts or a complete light. That's my definition, yours obviously differs. In the end, i'm curious as to your motivation for asking...


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## F250XLT (Jun 22, 2012)

fishndad said:


> You have gottin 3 CPFers replys. it just doesnt seem you agree.
> You did say (IMO a custom light is one made by hand in small quantities, born from an original design).
> Its just thats not what custom means. You dont have to get upset.




What gives you the slightest idea I am upset :laughing:, please don't start making assumptions that are way over the top. Again, I am looking for opinions, and thank you for sharing yours.


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## F250XLT (Jun 22, 2012)

scout24 said:


> In the end, i'm curious as to your motivation for asking...




I have no motivation other than being bored at work, and trying to get some back and forth going...Everyone is going to have their opinion, and it doesn't sound like mine differs much from yours.


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## fishndad (Jun 22, 2012)

OK
Yea i would agree that custom is handcrafted vs assembly line machining goes.
There are brands like HDS or Peak that i would still keep in the catigory of custom.They seem to put the Quality and detail
into there products that would be expected from a custom producer.
Using an autocad design and programming it into a machine, coming back from lunch and you got 20 bodies doesnt mean its not custom.


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## ChrisGarrett (Jun 22, 2012)

F250XLT said:


> I have no motivation other than being bored at work, and trying to get some back and forth going...Everyone is going to have their opinion, and it doesn't sound like mine differs much from yours.



Well, since 'words' are defined by their context, I guess it 'can' mean different things to different people.

I'm going with you though, on the 'made to order' definition, be it machine made, or hand made.

Somebody paints a picture by hand, it's a picture, not a custom picture.

You pay somebody to paint your family's portrait, it's a 'custom' portrait.

'Made to order' = custom in my mind, whether by machine, or by hand.

Chris


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## Jimbo75 (Jun 22, 2012)

F250XLT said:


> I know this has been discussed in the past, but I wanted to hear some fresh feedback regarding this topic...
> 
> IMO a custom light is one made by hand in small quantities, born from an original design.
> 
> Perhaps we should have a sub-forum called "Machine Made Original Designs" :laughing:



Since we are dissecting the word custom, what are your thoughts on the term made by hand...

Also if a factory torch has been customised by a custom maker to specifically suit a persons needs, does it become a custom....or are you just a customer of a custom maker....


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## brighterisbetter (Jun 22, 2012)

BIB's .02

In my vernacular, "custom" is synonymous with "unique" or "one-of-a-kind". If they're two-of-a-kind identical specimens, then it's a grey area whether they're "custom" or "production" - irregardless whether they were both made by hand by the same person. Limited runs also are a grey area as well, for instance....prototypes. Are they "customs"? Or is a prototype a class all to itself? What would a McGizmo Ti 27LT proto (4 pcs made if memory serves correctly) classify as?

I think by definition, any of PhotonFanatic's one-off's are undeniably "custom" whereas CoolFall's Spy's and Tri-V's...while certainly drool-inducing and highly sought after and in limited quantities...are "production".

In the end, I think your OP is a thought-provoking one, and opinions are surely to differ from one individual to the next. In the meantime, I'm sure the mod's will do a great job making their own determinations which sales threads belong in which sub-forums and which threads will get moved to somewhere more appropriate. Would be interesting to hear some of their inputs here as well.

For the record, in my opinion doing an emitter swap hardly qualifies the light as a custom.


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## nfetterly (Jun 22, 2012)

scout24 said:


> Small or one person shop, original design, premium materials, the product of sweat, obsession, and passion for what they do. Be it parts or a complete light.



Yep I agree with this one.


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## nfetterly (Jun 22, 2012)

brighterisbetter said:


> For the record, in my opinion doing an emitter swap hardly qualifies the light as a custom.



What about a McGizmo AL PD with Grey HA, PEU trit bezel and a emitter swap to neutral XM-L with amperage bump.

FWIW I consider the Spy series custom as I consider McGizmos customs. PhotonFanatic's one off's are just out of this world.



I was wishing I knew how to do multi quotes - then after replying here I saw the multi quote button....


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## brighterisbetter (Jun 22, 2012)

nfetterly said:


> What about a McGizmo AL PD with Grey HA, PEU trit bezel and a emitter swap to neutral XM-L with amperage bump.


If those characteristics make it a one-of-a-kind then yes I would agree that is a custom light. I was more or less getting at seeing an EagleTac or something in the B/S/T thread with a HighCRI emitter swap, instead of on the Marketplace where I think it would be more suited.


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## brighterisbetter (Jun 22, 2012)

Curious to everyone's thoughts on how they'd classify Malkoff products. Whether they started off "production", then evolved to "custom" and finally matured into "production"....and at which pivotal points/products would signify those distinctions. 



I'm starting to favor scout24's definition more and more


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## F250XLT (Jun 22, 2012)

Jimbo75 said:


> Since we are dissecting the word custom, what are your thoughts on the term made by hand...
> 
> Also if a factory torch has been customised by a custom maker to specifically suit a persons needs, does it become a custom....or are you just a customer of a custom maker....



Not trying to dissect a word here, trying to differentiate loosely used titles given to lights.



brighterisbetter said:


> BIB's .02
> 
> In my vernacular, "custom" is synonymous with "unique" or "one-of-a-kind". If they're two-of-a-kind identical specimens, then it's a grey area whether they're "custom" or "production" - irregardless whether they were both made by hand by the same person. Limited runs also are a grey area as well, for instance....prototypes. Are they "customs"? Or is a prototype a class all to itself? What would a McGizmo Ti 27LT proto (4 pcs made if memory serves correctly) classify as?
> 
> ...



I really think you are on the right track...Fred's lights are absolutely Custom, as custom as it gets IMO. And If you think a Tri-V is a production light, so is everything Don is doing these days...no? (I agree with this opinion BTW)



nfetterly said:


> What about a McGizmo AL PD with Grey HA, PEU trit bezel and a emitter swap to neutral XM-L with amperage bump.




I call that a modified production light.


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## nbp (Jun 22, 2012)

scout24 said:


> Small or one person shop, original design, premium materials, the product of sweat, obsession, and passion for what they do. Be it parts or a complete light. That's my definition, yours obviously differs. In the end, i'm curious as to your motivation for asking...



Sounds good to me! 

My McGizmos, Muyshondts, Mac, BitZ are not 1 of 1, but the above characteristics make them all Customs in my book. Maybe a machine did some of the work on the body tubes, so what? Each one of those lights was put together by one set of hands, tested by those hands, packaged by those hands, addressed to me by those hands, and all the while those same hands typed emails or PMs to me to discuss their product and answer my questions and concerns. That's Custom to me


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## ElectronGuru (Jun 22, 2012)

F250XLT said:


> Once it has been produced by automated machining multiple times, and is basically in "in stock" item, do you think it is still a "Custom" light? Why should lights be any different from knives?



Its a tricky comparison. Good knives are forged, and require a hammer to take their final shape. Mass produced vs custom knives will be whether that hammer is attached to a machine or someone's arm. I can't even imagine what a forged flashlight would take to make, so machine cutting actually requires less resources. The only question then, from a pure manufacturing standpoint is if a hand was turning the knobs and levers or if it was programmed. The main obstacle to automated/programmed milling is batch size. It may take 1000 pieces just to break even on the setup chargers.


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## brighterisbetter (Jun 22, 2012)

*I'm starting to think the difference lies in "custom" versus "personalization"*. A BTO (build to order) configuration offered on Macbook computers is a way to tailor it to the user specification prior to or in tandem with the sale transpiring. However, the sheer magnitude of Macbook computers sold and having few BTO options available means that there will be multiple iterations of the same configuration sold to the public. Would you consider those laptops customs? I would not.

My classification of McGizmo's being non-custom doesn't make them any less special in my eyes. So to anyone reading my post, please don't misinterpret as such. I just think that "custom" and "unique" are absolutely mutually inclusive terms. "Personalizing" a light certainly makes it unique, as is the case with serial numbers, and splash anodizing, and etching/signing clips, etc. But at the core of those procedures is still a light underneath that does not differ from others offered by same vendor within the same product category. *A "custom" is one that is built from scratch to the customer's unique requirements*, *not one that is built to order by the simple swap of one or two or three components of an otherwise semi-production unit.*


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## F250XLT (Jun 22, 2012)

Saying a McGizmo isn't a custom in no way lessens what it is, a fantastic, well thought out product. But it is certainly a production light at this point IMO.


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## brighterisbetter (Jun 22, 2012)

nbp said:


> Each one of those lights was put together by one set of hands, tested by those hands, packaged by those hands, addressed to me by those hands, and all the while those same hands typed emails or PMs to me to discuss their product and answer my questions and concerns. That's Custom to me


+1


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## the_guy_with_no_name (Jun 22, 2012)

This is a really great question!
Very custom indeed 

It does seem everyone has their own opinion.

CPF policy has its own definition in terms of whats allowable in the custom builders & modders section, but in the truest sense, perhaps a custom is a light where each is either individually made or individually modified so that it is "customized" in a way different to the run-of-the-mill version.

Its common to see "custom edition" cars or other mass produced products, but perhaps when it comes to flashlights, it would seem that custom implies more of a "unique" or "craftsman" type of meaning than the context used for such mass produced products.

So interesting to see so many varied opinions and interpretations of the same words 

Just imagine how much variance there might be if we ask "How do you define bright?"

tgwnn


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## brighterisbetter (Jun 22, 2012)

(my stupid post deleted sorry)


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## F250XLT (Jun 22, 2012)

the_guy_with_no_name said:


> CPF policy has its own definition in terms of whats allowable in the custom builders & modders section, but in the truest sense, perhaps a custom is a light where each is either individually made or individually modified so that it is "customized" in a way different to the run-of-the-mill version.




I guess that is where I see a true difference, custom vs customized. I am speaking of a true custom from the get go, not some tweaks to a production light. Just because something is assembled by hand, does not make it a custom. If that were true, we'd be paying a lot more for many "custom" items in our everyday life.


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## the_guy_with_no_name (Jun 22, 2012)

F250XLT said:


> I guess that is where I see a true difference, custom vs customized. I am speaking of a true custom from the get go, not some tweaks to a production light. Just because something is assembled by hand, does not make it a custom. If that were true, we'd be paying a lot more for many "custom" items in our everyday life.



Sure, that makes sense.
I visualize what you are saying as something akin to a sword maker, where each item is forged by hand (whether pre-ordered or not) and each is a unique masterpiece.

I guess the more specific the wording, the more concise of an image/definition it creates.

Perhaps in CPF, keeping it somewhat broad allows room for flexibility but you could easily differentiate:
custom
customized
custom-made
made-to-order
individually-made (crafted/machined)

Even then, there may be some ambiguity in deciding where to draw the line?
Using a mass produced led is ok, but not a mass produced body, how about the reflector, lens, switch, etc?

Something to think about

tgwnn


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## F250XLT (Jun 22, 2012)

the_guy_with_no_name said:


> Sure, that makes sense.
> I visualize what you are saying as something akin to a sword maker, where each item is forged by hand (whether pre-ordered or not) and each is a unique masterpiece.
> 
> I guess the more specific the wording, the more concise of an image/definition it creates.
> ...



It's all about the host, I don't know anyone who currently produces their own LED...do you? I know some have machined reflectors from scratch, and others have designed new switches. Let's not even start wondering who is making custom windows.

And yes, the term Custom is a very broad one here on CPF...and that's okay.


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## F250XLT (Jun 22, 2012)

Duplicate


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## the_guy_with_no_name (Jun 22, 2012)

F250XLT said:


> It's all about the host, I don't know anyone who currently produces their own LED...do you? I know some have machined reflectors from scratch, and others have designed new switches. Let's not even start wondering who is making custom windows.
> 
> And yes, the term Custom is a very broad one here on CPF...and that's okay.



Thanks for the reply 

I had spec'ed making a custom led for the CoreTi, though it would have been a few thousand so that would have become a production led.
I didn't end up doing it because the spec wasn't going to be near where it needed to be.

I know that Michael at OMG (DEFT) works, test and calibrate's each unit by hand, and although the body's are pre-made (mass), at least to me, those are very very custom.

Nice to have so many opinions and viewpoints 

tgwnn


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## ElectronGuru (Jun 22, 2012)

the_guy_with_no_name said:


> I know that Michael at OMG (DEFT) works, test and calibrate's each unit by hand, and although the body's are pre-made (mass), at least to me, those are very very custom.



Examples are tricky too. Henry works, tests, and calibrates each unit before shipping. And few would argue that FiveMega isn't custom, with many items produced 50+ at a time. 

Bottom line, one of a kind (true custom) lights are $1000+. There has to be some degree of volume/parts uniformity, to be affordable enough for most (or even many) members.


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## nbp (Jun 22, 2012)

So if we take the purest form of the word Custom: I contact builder X, tell him what I want that doesn't already exist/isn't available/is one of a kind, he builds me one and ships it, then there aren't really very many true Custom Builders around actually. Who would you guys say fall into that category?


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## ElectronGuru (Jun 23, 2012)

Mirage Man comes to mind


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## Obijuan Kenobe (Jun 23, 2012)

Fred, Brian, and maybe Scott if you can get him.

Custom has come to mean alot it does not as a result of knives and lights and cars.

I believe this word is going in the same direction as tactical...toward meaningless awesomeness.

I don't use the word unless I am selling something.

obi


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## F250XLT (Jun 23, 2012)

Oh gosh, don't get me started on "tactical" :laughing:


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## F250XLT (Jun 23, 2012)

nbp said:


> So if we take the purest form of the word Custom: I contact builder X, tell him what I want that doesn't already exist/isn't available/is one of a kind, he builds me one and ships it, then there aren't really very many true Custom Builders around actually. Who would you guys say fall into that category?



As mentioned, Fred & Brian...Don't forget JHanko & TB


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## nbp (Jun 23, 2012)

Obijuan Kenobe said:


> Fred, Brian, and maybe Scott if you can get him.
> 
> Custom has come to mean alot it does not as a result of knives and lights and cars.
> 
> ...



Fred is PhotonFanatic. Who's Brian? Scott (Milky?) Forgot about MM and JHanko, though JH makes some ridiculously cool stuff. 

It seems then that there were more true Customs years ago then, hey? Weren't people like TranquilityBase, Morelite, Erin, etc doing a lot of one-off bodies and heads? Who else does that stuff now?


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## F250XLT (Jun 23, 2012)

nbp said:


> Fred is PhotonFanatic. Who's Brian? Scott (Milky?) Forgot about MM and JHanko, though JH makes some ridiculously cool stuff.
> 
> It seems then that there were more true Customs years ago then, hey? Weren't people like TranquilityBase, Morelite, Erin, etc doing a lot of one-off bodies and heads? Who else does that stuff now?



Brian is MM, but I wouldn't include Milky in the conversation....And yes, there were more true customs produced in past years.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jun 23, 2012)

_The only thing missing from this great thread (Thanks Tim) are pictures. 

Jason, aka archer6817j DBA Dark Sucks referred to this as a One-off of a limited edition. 
~ Hat-Tip to owner/photographer easilyled. ~ _:thumbsup:






_Custom, or not? I vote custom.

Formerly owned by yours-truly. __Oveready "customized" Surefire C2 Centurion & 6P. The colors are Oveready HA "Custom Black", and "Custom Orange". Both were bored for an 18650 battery, had McClicky hard press tail switches, SS bezels, and numerous "Custom" drop-ins. _





_Custom or customized? I vote customized. 

_lovecpf_~ Chance _

_'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself. 

~ William Shakespeare ~ 
1400 AD_


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## fishndad (Jun 23, 2012)

I think the hand crafted lights are worthy of the $$$$ they bring in.At least the ones ive seen in CPFers pics.
But i wouldnt call them custom.
And i dont think the word custom carries anything special to it.
Hand crafted to me carries more value than custom.I also think a factory light can be moded to meet the special needs
of someone making it custom but not handmade.


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## griff (Jun 23, 2012)

is this custom:


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## fishndad (Jun 23, 2012)

griff said:


> is this custom:



Its beautifull. did you make it and if so did you have a specific need in mind?


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jun 23, 2012)

_Griff, 

I'm going to need more information about the custom flashlight pictured in my new desktop background. Please provide a link. 

Thank you, 

~ Chance _oo:


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## Obijuan Kenobe (Jun 24, 2012)

The Scott to which I was referring is the Scooter that is TranquilityBase. Scott and Fred are my favorite host cutters hands down, and I am currently working with Fred on the next one. I am also waiting on my 2nd Mac light, and the wait has been a long one. Hopefully it will pan out, as the last TriEDC I had was very very nice. 

I have a single mule head by MirageMan that I have fancified to make a very nice aspheric flood ala the XRU, but with better wider optics. I run an XML or a Nichia 119 in it and the beam is flawless. I bother Brian with an email every once in a while about making another, but so far it hasn't happened. This head runs on a McClicky pack and counts for me as a McGizmo in this sense. 

I did indeed forget Jeff. I have one light from Jeff, and have had more. I can't seem to completely let his work go. The 3D tail design is just so cool, it seems I will always need to have one in house. 

Still, my McGizmos (Ti PD, PD Mule, UV mule, and the special MM mule) are those that ride EDC the most. The rest are special events.

obi


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## F250XLT (Jun 24, 2012)

Thanks for sharing your opinions guys...


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## easilyled (Jun 25, 2012)

The CPF distinction between Custom and Non-custom lights seems to be that of _scale of production_ and _reach_ of the manufacturer.

In other words, if the manufacturer's aims are to sell large volumes of its lights and to reach the general public, their lights would be regarded as Non-custom as far as CPF is concerned.

If the aim of the manufacturer is to sell limited numbers of lights and to tailor their audience to people who tend to be more knowledgable and selective (such as CPF'ers), then their lights would be regarded as Custom.

Personal definitions will obviously vary since the non-CPF meaning of the word "custom" is subjective at best.
There will be as many interpretations as there are people offering up opinions.


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