# Any ideas about the Muyshondt Beagle?



## Lemurian (Apr 23, 2017)

He posted a nice new art print for the "Beagle" on instagram and a teaser image of what may be part of a flashlight with clip on fb. A bright torch for exploration? It looks like a fatty.


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## jonwkng (Apr 24, 2017)

Hi *Lemurian*!

Best to keep your eyes peeled on the social media posts. 

Looks can be deceiving. Not a fatty. Plenty bright. 
⚓


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## wimmer21 (Apr 24, 2017)

Go ahead and show us your proto already. 


EDIT: Yeah I'm jealous. Click on his lights and see why.


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## xdayv (Apr 24, 2017)

When both of you are in line... how can we score one? LOL. :mecry:


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## jonwkng (Apr 25, 2017)

xdayv said:


> When both of you are in line... how can we score one? LOL. :mecry:



Hey *xdayv*,

Nice to see a fellow flashaholic from around the region! :wave:

Do follow Muyshondt Flashlights on social media, if you have not already done so.

As always, there usually is ample supply on Enrique's site once the production lights are released, so do not fret. More information and details to follow, from the man himself, of course...
⚓


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## usdiver (Apr 25, 2017)

I remember many years ago when Surefire started and I thought they wanted silly money ... till I got one several years later... then I understood. I then advanced to HDS when Surefire started discontinuing the good stuff because they wanted to advance... now Surefire isn't my primary though still good, marketing and I believe forgetting what's important to the customer could possibly be the reason. I bought my first Muyshondt Aeon then waited and waited over a year as it was over in the states. I tried to sell it... nobody was interested even with the huge discount. I m happy nobody wanted it because I finally got it sent over and I can see the thought and quality that went into it. It's not my primary but it's my ace in the hole so to speak. Now I ve got an Aeon Mk III in Titanium and hoping to see my ti Flieger soon. 
I m not one to follow the normal crowd and I don't care much for bragging rights though I used to. I wanted a really good pocket thrower and the Flieger was impressive. Now look [emoji102] king to see more on the Beagle. I can't afford all the things I want so I look to get the best I can for what money I do spend. Patience patience we will see.


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## xdayv (Apr 25, 2017)

jonwkng said:


> Hey *xdayv*,
> 
> Nice to see a fellow flashaholic from around the region! :wave:
> 
> ...



Yeah, I can drop by your beautiful country to check out your treasure chest haha!


@usdiver -- you have a fine taste for great quality and craftsmanship, I bet you are in good hands with the Muyshondt electric torches!


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## usdiver (Apr 26, 2017)

@xdayv-- I do have good taste and know what I like. Doesn't do me any favors though. I m hard to please but I at the same time if I was going to build something then you'd definitely get the best I could make. I appreciate good quality but at the same time there are many custom jobs that don't do it for me. Kinda like a good woman, they can be beautiful but if they are too much hard work then better to do without. Just a bit iffy on that xp-l and hoping it out performs my expectations. In saying that I ve not had much to compare it with.


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## craniotes (May 7, 2017)

I haven't had a whole lot of time with it yet, but even so, I've got a feeling that this one is gonna go down in the books as a classic.





The secret weapon:





Regards,
Adam


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## mk2rocco (May 7, 2017)

Are those​ 5mm?


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## Vernon (May 9, 2017)

Awesome. Need more info? Are those 5mm or something else? Output? LED type? Tint?

Can't wait for this one.


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## K2-bk-bl-rd (May 10, 2017)

There is some great info on Enrique's Facebook group, about this light! Lots of great pictures too! Definitely worth checking out. I've been wanting a McGizmo Lunasol 20 for some time, (particularly, DaFABRICATA's LS20.3) so I'm curious how this light will compare.


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## kaichu dento (May 21, 2017)

mk2rocco said:


> Are those​ 5mm?





Vernon said:


> Awesome. Need more info? Are those 5mm or something else? Output? LED type? Tint?


Neither apparently.






Output: (1/15/70 lumens flood + 165/435 lumens flood + throw)

Both of the Beagle's beams are produced by high output, high Color Rendering Index (CRI) LEDs at 4000K (Neutral White) color temperature. The flood ring is 90+ CRI and the high beam is 80+ CRI, giving you rich, accurate colors at all light intensities.


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## scout24 (May 21, 2017)

They are a sweet neutral timt, as is the center emitter. Three levels of flood, two higher levels of throw with the flood emitters still on. Reverse clicky, Functionally and asthetically, a very nice light. As mentioned, check out the Muyshondt Facebook group.


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## xdayv (May 23, 2017)

Beagle details available now at its official website... looks like a winner!!


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## kaichu dento (May 23, 2017)

Not much information yet but at least the Beagle MkI has its own page now.


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## xdayv (May 23, 2017)

kaichu dento said:


> Not much information yet but at least the Beagle MkI has its own page now.


you can click on the product shot, and it will bring you to the product details and specs.


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## kaichu dento (May 23, 2017)

[h=1]Beagle Mk. I Electric Torch
Copper[/h] [h=5]Small. Powerful. Capable.[/h] [h=5]The most electronically and mechanically sophisticated Electric Torch we've ever created.[/h] [h=6]Available for Pre-Order.
Expected delivery late August/September 2017.
Use code "BEAGLE" at checkout for pre-production pricing.[/h] 




​ *Come Away With Me*​ Named after the HMS Beagle, a British Royal Navy vessel which carried a young Charles Darwin aboard during the expedition where he recorded his observations that would lead to his Theory of Evolution, the Beagle Electric Torch is designed as a tool for exploration.​ 
 *Sophistication, not Complication*​ The Beagle is capable of two distinct beam types, and comes equipped with the new Calibre 1116 Light Engine – the latest generation in Muyshondt design drawing on over a decade’s worth of experience in crafting high-efficiency, high-performance electronics for Electric Torches.​ Operation is simple: Five intensities (1/15/70 lumens flood + 165/435 lumens flood + throw) are accessed by clicking the tailswitch for each mode change. The Light Engine handles the rest, powering the LEDs efficiently, and without complication. A smooth, high-CRI flood provides a hotspot free wash of light for any close range tasks, and the central high beam provides an extra measure of power to view things at a distance – all within a single Electric Torch.​ 


 
 




​ *Well Versed in Versatility*​ Two beam types to illuminate the world up close, and far away.​ Five intensities to give you the light output you need for any situation.​ Capable of running for hours on CR123s, Rechargeable CR123s, MPC-18350I cells, and Protected 18350 Lithium Ion cells.​ All of this in a package 25mm in diameter and 85mm long, with a unique, monocoque case design crafted for superior durability and thermal performance.​ 
 *Nothing but the Best*​ There is no substitute for quality.​ Our clips are machined from a block of titanium. Our heatsinks are made of solid copper, then polished and gold plated to create a superior thermal juncture to the copper core LED board. Our electronics are crafted with gold plated circuit paths, using carefully selected components to maximize performance at every level. Our lenses are made from synthetically grown sapphire crystal that is covered with an anti-reflective coating on each side to maximize light transmission. Our LEDs are high CRI where possible – 90+ on the flood ring, and 80+ on the center beam.​ With a Muyshondt Electric Torch, every little detail spanning electronic minutiae inside, to the user interface, and to each individually mill-cut pyramid on the grip, is considered and accounted for, and the Beagle continues in this tradition.​ 

 
 


 ​ *Explore*​ From the urban jungle, to the actual jungle, the Beagle is intended to be your companion on whatever adventure you find yourself in. It is small, bright, and capable – made from some of the finest materials on Earth and to uncompromising quality standards, and designed to help you remove darkness in any situation you find yourself in. See better, together, with a Beagle Electric Torch at your side.​ 
[h=1]Features[/h] *Copper Construction*​ Made from Copper and available in two finishes - Polished and Relic. Polished is, well - polished - a beautiful mirror sheen that will patina over time unique to your uses. Relic come with patina built in - a dark sort of "copper and rust" finish with a great depth of character that is different to each Electric Torch, it will show contrasts with wear which will darken and change over time.​ *Monocoque Case*​ The Beagle uses a monocoque case design, created to optimize thermal conductivity and strength. There is no "head" on this design, and the only removable part is the tailcap. What results is a more even distribution of heat across the torch body - allowing for higher light output without overheating - as well as improved strength.​ 
 *Dual Beam*​ The Beagle produces two distinct beam types - providing both a smooth flood of light, and a long distance high beam, all within a single Electric Torch.​ *Calibre 1116 Light Engine*​ The Calibre 1116 Light Engine is the culmination of over a decade's work in designing high efficiency, high performance Electric Torches. Light output is controlled simply: Click on, half-push to switch between modes. Click off. Each intensity level across both flood and throw beams are is fully regulated, with light outputs of 1 (100 hours), 15 (22 Hours), 70 (4 Hours) lumens flood, and 165 (2 Hours), and 435 (45 Minutes) lumens flood and throw.​ 
 *Double-AR Coated Sapphire Crystal Lens*​ Sapphire Crystal. Extremely scratch resistant, coming in at 9 on the Mohs Scale (diamonds are 10), synthetically grown, cut, and polished, then coated on each side with an Anti-Reflective (AR) coating to become the lens on your Beagle.​ *Machined Clip*​ Cut from a solid block of titanium, the Beagle's clip is designed with just the right amount of tension to allow for secure attachment to any pocket. The clip is sculpted to fit perfectly along the curved body of the Electric Torch, and each edge is carefully chamfered on all sides, and completed with a stonewashed finish.​ 
 *Gold Plated Electrical Contacts*​ Highly conductive and highly inert, gold plated electronics ensure good electrical connections in all parts of the light, making sure more energy is converted to light instead of heat.​ *O-Ring Sealed, Water Resistant*​ Custom O-Rings seal all junctures of the torch - keeping everything inside secure.​ 
 *Pushbutton Tailswitch*​ Capped with a titanium pushbutton and easy to activate, the tailswitch on the Beagle conveniently and effectively allows you to operate the light one-handed.​ *High CRI Output*​ Both of the Beagle's beams are produced by high output, high Color Rendering Index (CRI) LEDs at 4000K (Neutral White) color temperature. The flood ring is 90+ CRI and the high beam is 80+ CRI, giving you rich, accurate colors at all light intensities.​ 
 *Versatile Power Plant*​ The Flieger Light Engine is capable of accommodating dual battery types - a single CR123 cell, or an MPC-18350I cell (available from Muyshondt).​ *25mm Diameter by 84mm Long, 174 Grams*​ 0.984 in Diameter by 3.31 in Long, 6.14 Ounces​


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## Croquette (May 23, 2017)

I must say the darkwell titanium is very tempting and it has no real alternative speaking of 18350 reflector titanium or copper high qulaity flashlight.


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## Random Dan (May 23, 2017)

The dual beam looks sweet, and the runtimes for it are impressive. I also really like the the fact that it will take 18350. The lack of a good rechargeable option is what turned me off of the Aeon. Definitely one of the most well thought out lights I've seen in a while; every detail looks perfect. Sadly, I think it is a little too much money for me. Maybe there will be an aluminum model some day?


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## xdayv (May 23, 2017)

Will it run safely on an IMR 18350 (thinking AW)?


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## Croquette (May 23, 2017)

Yes I think it's the recommended cell by Enrique.


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## nbp (May 23, 2017)

I really, really, really, really want one of these!


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## kaichu dento (May 23, 2017)

nbp said:


> I really, really, really, really want one of these!


I'm thinking that a Muyshondt Menagerie may be in the making. I've already got a Maus and now I can't wait to get a Beagle. :duh2:


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## Ozythemandias (May 23, 2017)

Random Dan said:


> The dual beam looks sweet, and the runtimes for it are impressive. I also really like the the fact that it will take 18350. The lack of a good rechargeable option is what turned me off of the Aeon. Definitely one of the most well thought out lights I've seen in a while; every detail looks perfect. Sadly, I think it is a little too much money for me. *Maybe there will be an aluminum model some day?[b/]*


*

Hoping for this*


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## xdayv (May 23, 2017)

+1 on aluminum!


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## kaichu dento (May 24, 2017)

xdayv said:


> +1 on aluminum!


If it's going to be aluminum, raw 7075 would be perfect.


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## PoliceScannerMan (May 24, 2017)

Ordered a turned Ti Beagle. Cannot wait, as I loved the LunaSol, but each light (flood and throw) was only one level. This has multiple levels and CRI, what a time to be alive.


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## KuanR (May 24, 2017)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> Ordered a turned Ti Beagle. Cannot wait, as I loved the LunaSol, but each light (flood and throw) was only one level. This has multiple levels and CRI, what a time to be alive.


I ordered a dark rolled (stone wash) version right when it was released.

I feel the exact sentiment. This is what a modern Lunasol should be: high cri, warm tint, multiple levels for all led, 18350 powered.

Add to that a machined clip and titanium button and it's a winning combination. I can't wait to get this! This will replace my Tri-V3 and Hanko LF2XT that have found new homes.


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## PoliceScannerMan (May 24, 2017)

KuanR said:


> I ordered a dark rolled (stone wash) version right when it was released.
> 
> I feel the exact sentiment. This is what a modern Lunasol should be: high cri, warm tint, multiple levels for all led, 18350 powered.
> 
> Add to that a machined clip and titanium button and it's a winning combination. I can't wait to get this! This will replace my Tri-V3 and Hanko LF2XT that have found new homes.



Agreed this should be a great EDC.


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## Ozythemandias (May 24, 2017)

I think the UI can be improved with shortcuts to flood and throw vs scrolling through modes


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## InvisibleFrodo (May 27, 2017)

So I understand that the first 3 levels of output will be flood/mule only at 1/15/70 lumens... What is unclear is that if the 4th and 5th levels are 165/435 lumens of flood/reflector combo, does that mean the flood stays at 70 lumens? Meaning setting 4 is 70 lumens flood and 95 lumens of "high beam"? Or will the flood beam get brighter than 70 lumens in setting 4 and 5.

This light is absolutely begging for user programmable output levels. The combinations are virtually limitless if for each output level the user could choose to use either the flood, the reflector, or both, and set the output of each individually...

I'm dreaming a bit here. But I feel the lights concept, design, and execution are great. I love that more "standard" sized batteries are being embraced by Muyshondt. I honestly feel the greatest limitation is the pre-set brightness intensities and run times...


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## scout24 (May 27, 2017)

The flood stays on high, 70lm, when level 4 and 5 are chosen.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Jun 7, 2017)

Bumping this thread, cannot wait to receive my Beagle!


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## Vernon (Jun 18, 2017)

Any new info or general thoughts on this light? Can't wait for mine!


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## usdiver (Jun 19, 2017)

Aaron Tippin hit the nail on the head when he did People Like Us.. in saying that I personally have no need for the Beagle. The size is great. The flood is debatable. Throw and runtime kills it for me and so I ll stick to my Fliegers. A review will be coming when I get em over to the U.K. However in saying that it truly is a gorgeous design.


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## Ozythemandias (Jun 30, 2017)

Visible PWM on mode 4 of my prototype unit:







Hopefully this gets addressed for the production units


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## PoliceScannerMan (Jun 30, 2017)

Only on mode 4?


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## Ozythemandias (Jun 30, 2017)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> Only on mode 4?



Correct. I imagine this means it's on the center emitter.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Jul 1, 2017)

Ozythemandias said:


> Correct. I imagine this means it's on the center emitter.



That's what I was thinking too.


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## LogicalBeard (Jul 31, 2017)

So the flood stays on high, 70lm for level 4 and 5. Does that mean level 4 will have 70 lumens flood and 165 lumens throw for a total of 235lm? Or, does that mean 70 flood and 95 throw?


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## LogicalBeard (Jul 31, 2017)

Is the flood exactly like a mule or very similar? On the U.I. is there mode memory or will it always start in 1 lumen? Any rough guess on throw distance?


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## Ozythemandias (Jul 31, 2017)

I emailed in to Muyshondt regarding the flicker, they said there is no PWM on any mode and the perceived flicker is a result of circuit noise. They've been aware of the issue and production units will not have PWM or flicker. Great news!

LogicalBear: Flood ring is similar to a mule but not exactly. Personally I don't like mules and sold my McGizimo Mule, I love the Beagle flood pattern. 

Re throw, I didn't take any measurements yet but I plan on. Judging by eye, it's not as throwy as expected.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Jul 31, 2017)

Ozythemandias said:


> I emailed in to Muyshondt regarding the flicker, they said there is no PWM on any mode and the perceived flicker is a result of circuit noise. They've been aware of the issue and production units will not have PWM or flicker. Great news!
> 
> LogicalBear: Flood ring is similar to a mule but not exactly. Personally I don't like mules and sold my McGizimo Mule, I love the Beagle flood pattern.
> 
> Re throw, I didn't take any measurements yet but I plan on. Judging by eye, it's not as throwy as expected.



Very pleased to hear that!!!


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## LogicalBeard (Aug 1, 2017)

Sounds good. I think I'm going to pull the trigger. What finish do you have? I was leaning towards the relic copper. On the measurements he lists the titanium and copper as the same grams/ounces. Are the weights really the same between both the titanium and copper you think? I agree about the UI. I think at least something like a triple click for high and maybe a quadruple click for some sort of voltage/battery check would be awesome. Or how about some sort of variation like, double click for high flood, triple click for high flood + throw?


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 1, 2017)

I went turned Ti, the copper has to be heavier. Turned Ti is gorgeous, check out Enrique's instagram pic from yesterday.


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## jon_slider (Aug 1, 2017)

Ozythemandias said:


> I emailed in to Muyshondt regarding the flicker, they said there is no PWM on any mode and the perceived flicker is a result of circuit noise.


Thank you for taking the time to share what you learn.

Yes, Constant Current Circuit Noise or Ripple is not PWM, its another form of fluctuating brightness. Zebras also use Constant Current with Circuit Noise Ripple, so do EagleTac and Manker.

We can no longer rely on the term NoPWM to mean flat regulated output. In fact, runtime graphs will often reveal wavy output, that a naive user will be unaware of. Our eyes are not that sensitive to brightness changes.

IF the production units do not have circuit noise that would be great to hear. Or you can adopt the popular refrain, "I don't notice in actual use" 

I started a thread to collect some of the lights that have Ripple
Its not PWM its Constant Current Circuit Noise Ripple


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## LogicalBeard (Aug 3, 2017)

I grabbed a polished copper one. My only concern is that it might be a little heavy for EDC. :shrug:


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## xdayv (Aug 3, 2017)

LogicalBeard said:


> I grabbed a polished copper one. My only concern is that it might be a little heavy for EDC. :shrug:


copper is definitely heavy, but you just gotta love how it patina's quickly and... uniquely.


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## LogicalBeard (Aug 4, 2017)

Ozythemandias said:


> I emailed in to Muyshondt regarding the flicker, they said there is no PWM on any mode and the perceived flicker is a result of circuit noise. They've been aware of the issue and production units will not have PWM or flicker. Great news!
> 
> LogicalBear: Flood ring is similar to a mule but not exactly. Personally I don't like mules and sold my McGizimo Mule, I love the Beagle flood pattern.
> 
> Re throw, I didn't take any measurements yet but I plan on. Judging by eye, it's not as throwy as expected.



I have a Foursevens Atom AO that doesn't have a parabolic reflector. Is that the same as a mule?


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## Ozythemandias (Aug 4, 2017)

LogicalBeard said:


> I have a Foursevens Atom AO that doesn't have a parabolic reflector. Is that the same as a mule?



It depends, I believe some of the Atoms have an aspherical lens, in which cash I wouldn't consider it to be a mule. 

A mule is simply flashlight without a reflector, the McGizmo Mule being the archetype. The Beagle differs in that the mule emitters are right up against the lens, as opposed to most mules where's there is a short distance between lens and LED. I found the difference to be the perimeter of the beam, on a mule the pattern shows up as a very flat, perfectly round circle, the Beagle flood is more gradual and no sharp distinction. 

I'm writing a Beagle review, have to take some beamshots and measurement, I'll let you know when it's complete.


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## LogicalBeard (Aug 5, 2017)

Ozythemandias said:


> It depends, I believe some of the Atoms have an aspherical lens, in which cash I wouldn't consider it to be a mule.
> 
> A mule is simply flashlight without a reflector, the McGizmo Mule being the archetype. The Beagle differs in that the mule emitters are right up against the lens, as opposed to most mules where's there is a short distance between lens and LED. I found the difference to be the perimeter of the beam, on a mule the pattern shows up as a very flat, perfectly round circle, the Beagle flood is more gradual and no sharp distinction.
> 
> I'm writing a Beagle review, have to take some beamshots and measurement, I'll let you know when it's complete.



That's exactly what I was wondering. I don't think you could have described it better. I'm looking forward to your review!!


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## LogicalBeard (Aug 25, 2017)

I'm writing a Beagle review, have to take some beamshots and measurement, I'll let you know when it's complete.[/QUOTE]

Hey Ozy, any status update to report on throw numbers or the review? I tried to get an IPx rating out of them along with if they were using Nichia or Cree emitters to no avail. Any guesses on either one of those subjects?


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## Flash-O-Maniac (Oct 31, 2017)

I received my Mk. 1 Turned Titanium Beagle today. I have to say there are a couple of things that are troublesome for me about the light, and the only reason I want to post them here is to find out as people receive their lights, is anyone else having the same perceptions as I am. I am a collector of over 300 flashlights, with many of the high end lights such as McGizmos, Tains, Prometheus, Luters, TNCs, Tranquility Base, 4 other Muyshondts (some also titanium), etc. I always considered Muyshondt lights to be at the upper end if not the pinnacle of quality both in machining and electronics. At least that is what Muyshondt seems to be shouting from the mountain tops with their advertising and the literature that comes with the light. 

Sorry for the long intro - now to the issues. I charged the battery that I ordered with the light and took off the tail cap, inserted the battery, and ran the light through its 5 modes. Nice beam combos with the light and pleasant tint. But the reverse clicky seems ultra sensitive. You depress the button till it clicks to turn on the light, then slightly (ever so slightly) press the button to change modes with an audible squeak from the internals of the switch, but even with being somewhat experienced with the other 300 lights I own, I accidentally pressed a hair too far and clicked the light off on several occasions. This seems way too sensitive to needing the button barely pressed in and at least for me resulted in numerous mis presses and turning the light off. More than on any other light I own.

The second issue I noticed is the super easy possibility of cross threading the threads when twisting on the tail cap. On any new light I am super careful to be very ginger with the turning force, and try to be just as super careful to properly angle the tail cap so that cross threading is avoided. I'm very sensitive about messing up threads and have never done it on a light yet. If I notice the slightest possibility of cross threading I immediately back the cap off and restart. But on this light the first time I took the battery out and wanted to wipe down the light I started to put the tail cap on and gave it a few twists while I thought I was holding the cap perfectly square to the body, the cap went on a couple of twists and then seemed like it hit a stop way before it was even a quarter of the way on. I backed the cap off and tried again and was able to properly tighten the tail cap all the way. I took it off again and this time tried being even more careful to properly twist it on without cross threading, and the same thing happened again. While I am able to properly tighten the tail cap most of the time, there are just too many times where as careful as I am to keep everything square and gingerly twist it on, the threads get cross threaded - or so it seems. I thought there was possibly a burr or something on either part of the threads, but I can't see or feel anything, and when it goes on properly there doesn't seem to be any burr scraping, I would assume a burr would be detected with every attempt. And when I look at the threads with a bright light and magnifying glass I don't see anything that could be causing this.

I realize I am not perfect, and there is a possibility that I am just plain not threading the tail cap on properly on the occasions when I have these problems, but like I said I don't have this problem with any other of the high end lights I own. In fact the Prometheus Blue Label light is famous for Jason's unreal smooth threads (I realize the material is aluminum VS Titanium on the Beagle with titanium almost always having more gritty threads) but I don't think I could cross thread that light even if I tried to. Extremely unlikely to cross thread any of my McGizmo lights. Same goes for all of the other high end manufacturers I listed earlier.

I'm really not interested in returning this light because there is the possibility that it is a defective user as opposed to a defective light. But I would be interested in hearing if anybody else has found the same issues as I did and if this disappointed them also.


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## LogicalBeard (Oct 31, 2017)

Flash-O-Maniac said:


> I received my Mk. 1 Turned Titanium Beagle today. I have to say there are a couple of things that are troublesome for me about the light, and the only reason I want to post them here is to find out as people receive their lights, is anyone else having the same perceptions as I am. I am a collector of over 300 flashlights, with many of the high end lights such as McGizmos, Tains, Prometheus, Luters, TNCs, Tranquility Base, 4 other Muyshondts (some also titanium), etc. I always considered Muyshondt lights to be at the upper end if not the pinnacle of quality both in machining and electronics. At least that is what Muyshondt seems to be shouting from the mountain tops with their advertising and the literature that comes with the light.
> 
> Sorry for the long intro - now to the issues. I charged the battery that I ordered with the light and took off the tail cap, inserted the battery, and ran the light through its 5 modes. Nice beam combos with the light and pleasant tint. But the reverse clicky seems ultra sensitive. You depress the button till it clicks to turn on the light, then slightly (ever so slightly) press the button to change modes with an audible squeak from the internals and boot, but even with being somewhat experienced with the other 300 lights I own, I accidentally pressed a hair too far and clicked the light off on several occasions. This seems way too sensitive to needing the button barely pressed in and at least for me resulted in numerous mis presses and turning the light off. More than on any other light I own.
> 
> ...





Sorry to hear about your issues. I have the polished copper version. No audible squeak. The travel on the button seems good to me. However, I have the opposite problem with my switch. I have a very light touch and can press the button so lightly that every once in a while when I press the button the light interrupts/turns off, but doesn't go up a mode and just stays in the same mode/level. I've got my muscle memory trained now to use the correct amount of force. It sounds to me like you are saying the "travel" is out of whack? 
The threading is really smooth on my copper. However, it is very hard to know if it is lined up properly when you start to screw it on. So do the threads feel gritty? I make sure I turn it a hair counterclockwise first and then press down a little when I thread it. I don't think I have cross-thread it yet. 
I'd be interested to hear other peoples experiences.


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## Rstype (Oct 31, 2017)

I have a titanium beagle (Darkwell to be exact) and don't experience any squeaking on my switch's button. It is I believe not bad when it comes to switching modes. Never experienced shutting it off when trying to switch modes. Just a light press does the trick.

when it came to the tailcap being installed again , I do a quarter turn as well so that it will seat properly in the inner threads. I think the double o-ring( the first one to be exact) throws off the feeling of being able to tell if you catch the threads correctly right away. I know it took a little getting used to for me.Over all though it's been a good light.


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## murrydan (Nov 1, 2017)

I have a 'darkwell' Ti as well, my switch did have a bit of a scrape but it has smoothed out over the past few days. 

For me, the light functions well, I'm not a huge fan of reverse clickys but I can live with it. My issue was the finish. The 'darkwell' was grossly misrepresented on Muyshondt's website. Also, my mokuti clip is much more subtle than expected, it is almost lavender instead of the high contrast silver/gold/blue he had on the site.

However, I believe the pros outweigh the cons and this is a decent substitute for those of us that missed out on Don's Lunasols.


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## TimeOnTarget (Nov 1, 2017)

I have the turned Ti.

My switch feels fine with no travel issues. I agree that the double o-ring makes replacing the tail cap feel a bit odd. I am just careful and it threads properly.

I would describe the five perimeter LEDs as Mule like creating a very smooth flood. 

It is an interesting, high end light. Is is worth it? I don't know as it is all so subjective.

I have several Convoy host lights from Adventure Sports and PFlexPro that I really enjoy and use routinely. We are so spoiled for choice in this modern first world...


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## thenikjones (Nov 1, 2017)

I have had a prototype (Frosted Ti) since about June. The switch is sensitive but got the feel for it now. Helps if you commit to using the beagle and not bounce around a range of torches. 

The tail cap is great - stiff due to O rings but never a hint of cross-threading. Not as smooth to screw as a Haiku or Mule but maybe that is down to the finish, they are not stonewashed?


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 3, 2017)

Does anyone have the capability or inclination to give a rough guess on what throw numbers would be? I don't have a lux meter.


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## scout24 (Nov 3, 2017)

No guess on lux numbers, but it's a 75 yard light in my world. Anything past that and you'd need a Fleiger.  Shallow reflector, not beating the heck out of the emitters with overdrive, it's meant as a mixed beam, up-close edc light in my opinion.


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 3, 2017)

scout24 said:


> No guess on lux numbers, but it's a 75 yard light in my world. Anything past that and you'd need a Fleiger.  Shallow reflector, not beating the heck out of the emitters with overdrive, it's meant as a mixed beam, up-close edc light in my opinion.




Very helpful. I think he made the right call on the floodier center beam. This way you get a light that is perfect for up close and mid distances without any compromises. Then one can switch to a dedicated thrower if the situation will need it.


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## trojansteel (Nov 5, 2017)




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## LogicalBeard (Nov 12, 2017)

Battery question: On their proprietary 18350 battery it says not to discharge below 2.75 volts. Is this the resting voltage or voltage under load? The reason I ask is that Muyshondt representatives say that the Beagle falls out of regulation at 2.7 volts. So when the Beagle drops out of regulation, that means one has discharged the battery below Muyshondt's 2.75 recommendation. This doesn't seem right to me. What would be the point of that? It would make sense to make the regulation drop out at say 2.8. That way, the end user could be positive they didn't over discharge the battery past 2.75 if they turned it off immediately. Could someone shed some light on this for me?


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## jon_slider (Nov 12, 2017)

LogicalBeard said:


> Could someone shed some light on this for me?


see:
https://shop.muyshondt.net/products/18350-power-cell
"They are unprotected lithium ion cells with an IMR chemistry cathode, meaning that extra caution must be utilized when operating any device with them, and they are not recommended for inexperienced users. (Read more about Lithium-Ion Safety Here - If in doubt, use lithium primary CR123A cells in your devices.)"


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 12, 2017)

Hey. Thanks for the reply. I think you have some good general advice. However, I'm unclear if you answered any of my questions. Specifically, the battery says not to go below 2.75 yet the light won't cut off until it gets to 2.7. I hypothesised that the 2.75 on the battery refers to resting voltage. What are your thoughts on this?


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## archimedes (Nov 12, 2017)

LogicalBeard said:


> Hey. Thanks for the reply. I think you have some good general advice. However, I'm unclear if you answered any of my questions. Specifically, the battery says not to go below 2.75 yet the light won't cut off until it gets to 2.7. I hypothesised that the 2.75 on the battery refers to resting voltage. What are your thoughts on this?



I am not familiar with that particular battery, beyond the statement on the wrapper that it is an IMR18350.

However, speaking generally, I would not be comfortable keeping any cell that has stayed below 3.0V for any significant duration, and do not intentionally discharge cells of this type below 3.5V .... In fact, I specifically try to avoid this type of overdischarge.


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 12, 2017)

I frequently top my batteries off too. I like to keep them in the 40-80 range. When you reference 3.0, and 3.5, you are talking about resting voltage, right?


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## archimedes (Nov 12, 2017)

Yes, open circuit voltage (no load)


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## jon_slider (Nov 12, 2017)

LogicalBeard said:


> I hypothesised that the 2.75 on the battery refers to resting voltage.



I agree


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 13, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> yes I agree it refers to resting voltage. The beagle accepts both Primary Lithium and Rechargeable LiIon, but has no built in LiIon protection.To me this suggests the Beagle can't tell a CR123 from a LiIon, which would be necessary if there was to be built in LiIon protection, like HDS has, and still retain the ability to run a CR123 down below 2.7v.I think I read recently that Zebralight has abandoned dual chemistry circuits, with built in protection, because they wanted to reduce the size of the electronics.. Like HDS, Zebras could detect whether the cell was Primary or LiIon, and enable or disable protection automatically.. (I hope I got that right)I wonder if there is a protected cell that fits the Beagle, as an option for those times when protection is a priority, for example when lending the light to granny, who might fall asleep while it is in candle mode  (probably safest to not lend out unprotected LiIon lights, maybe lend them loaded w non-LiIon instead)Other lights, like the Reylight Pineapples, are similar to the beagle in that they are dual chemistry, without built in protection.






No protection but the light falls out of regulation at 2.7 volts. They advertise that one can use protected 18350's. So when the light falls out of regulation at 2.7 volts, is that violating the warning on the 18350 battery that says not to discharge below 2.75 volts?


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 13, 2017)

archimedes said:


> Yes, open circuit voltage (no load)




Considering the warning label on the battery says to not discharge the battery below 2.75 volts. When the light falls out of regulation at 2.7 volts, does that mean I violated the warning label on the battery?


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## archimedes (Nov 13, 2017)

I have neither this particular flashlight, nor this particular battery, so I don't really have further info for you beyond what I've already posted ... :shrug:


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## jon_slider (Nov 13, 2017)

LogicalBeard said:


> They advertise that one can use protected 18350's. So when the light falls out of regulation at 2.7 volts, is that violating the warning on the 18350 battery that says not to discharge below 2.75 volts?


I suggest you contact Muyshondt directly.


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 13, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> I would not intentionally use a LiIon at 2.7v, so "falling out of regulation" at that voltage is not something I would be wanting to experience anyway.
> 
> If you get a protected LiIon, it also will not run down below 2.75, because protection will have kicked in, hopefully sooner (I do have some protected cells that shut off at 2.75v, but I think others shut off sooner)
> 
> ...




I searched for some protected 18350 batteries and the ones I found had a 2.5 voltage shutoff. The only reply I can get out of Muyshondt is on their FB group. The reply was, "When the Beagle falls out of power regulation, operating dimly and not providing full brightness, you should recharge or replace the batteries. The Beagle does not regulate below 2.7 volts." I will try and send them another email. It's like pulling teeth to get a straight answer out of them sometimes.


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 13, 2017)

archimedes said:


> I have neither this particular flashlight, nor this particular battery, so I don't really have further info for you beyond what I've already posted ... :shrug:



If you did have the battery and light, what info would you be looking for? Since I have both, I could run some tests or read info from the battery or light that you would do if you had them.


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## archimedes (Nov 13, 2017)

LogicalBeard said:


> If you did have the battery and light, what info would you be looking for? Since I have both, I could run some tests or read info from the battery or light that you would do if you had them.





jon_slider said:


> ....*
> We are just guessing here, I suggest you contact Muyshondt directly.*





archimedes said:


> *I have neither this particular flashlight, nor this particular battery, so I don't really have further info for you beyond what I've already posted ... :shrug:*



I don't care to speculate, but I do think you've been provided info that may be useful in making your own decisions.

If you want *definitive* guidance, I agree with Jon ... you should contact the manufacturer.


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## jon_slider (Nov 13, 2017)

LogicalBeard said:


> It's like pulling teeth



Sorry for your pain.


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 13, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> Maybe do a test.. Do you have a light meter and a volt meter?
> 
> I have an unprotected 18350 IMR in one of my lights, that has no built in OverDischarge protection.
> 
> ...




Nice. I have a voltmeter but no light meter. However, I trust their info that the light will fall out of regulation at 2.7 volts. What I really want to know is if at that exact moment it falls out of regulation, if that is below the 2.75 warning on the battery. Thanks for trying to help. I love the Beagle. I don't remember, do you have one?


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 14, 2017)

archimedes said:


> I don't care to speculate, but I do think you've been provided info that may be useful in making your own decisions.
> 
> If you want *definitive* guidance, I agree with Jon ... you should contact the manufacturer.



No worries. I thought you were implying that if you had the "particular flashlight" and battery, you would have further info. To be clear, I don't want anyone to speculate. What specific "info" are you referencing that I was provided that is useful in determining whether the proprietary battery is below the 2.75 volts warning label when the flashlight falls out of regulation? I have contacted the manufacturer a week ago with no response. Thanks for trying to help.


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## scout24 (Nov 14, 2017)

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. You've got 10 or 11 posts on this page alone, and have received comments back from several members. If your light dims, take the cell out and recharge it. Or run primaries if you're that concerned or run protected cells. Or sell the light, and find one you're more comfortable using. Maybe Li-ions aren't for you. This is a small run light from a boutique maker, designed for enthusiasts. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but fully 2/3 of your posts here on CPF have been about this light...

At the end of the day, battery safety falls squarely in the lap of the end user. You and nobody else are responsible for the proper safety, storage, and use of unprotected cells. They're unprotected. There are plenty of hot rod lights that don't offer low voltage protection, it's a risk we all accept here, some use them and some don't.


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 14, 2017)

scout24 said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. You've got 10 or 11 posts on this page alone, and have received comments back from several members. If your light dims, take the cell out and recharge it. Or run primaries if you're that concerned or run protected cells. Or sell the light, and find one you're more comfortable using. Maybe Li-ions aren't for you. This is a small run light from a boutique maker, designed for enthusiasts. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but fully 2/3 of your posts here on CPF have been about this light...
> 
> At the end of the day, battery safety falls squarely in the lap of the end user. You and nobody else are responsible for the proper safety, storage, and use of unprotected cells. They're unprotected. There are plenty of hot rod lights that don't offer low voltage protection, it's a risk we all accept here, some use them and some don't.




Hmmmm maybe I'm being inarticulate. What I'm trying to "accomplish" is the answer to the question; Considering the warning label on the battery says to not discharge the battery below 2.75 volts. When the light falls out of regulation at 2.7 volts, does that mean I violated the warning label on the battery? 


I'm sure you saw that my other posts were about the Manker E14 and that I'm perfectly comfortable using Li-ions. I would classify that light as a hot rod. 

Maybe people thought I wanted general safety info on batteries because I didn't ask my question well enough and they are getting frustrated because I keep asking. It sounds like everyone is saying only the manufacturer knows the actual specific answer. I was hoping for a scenario where maybe the warning label on the battery always applies to resting voltage etc. Or they could suggest some way of testing it like as soon as the light drops out of regulation at 2.7 volts, take the battery out and test it to see if the resting voltage comes back over 3 volts and that means it is good to go etc. Sorry if I've caused consternation. I love the light and for me it's the best light that has ever been made.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Nov 15, 2017)

Okay, let's make this really easy. The cutoff of regulation being set at 2.7 is violating the manufacturer warning. 2.7 is less than 2.75. It doesn't matter much anyways. Those cells should not be discharged down that low. If you bring them down that low, you will greatly reduce cell cycle life. You should probably be recharging the cells before the voltage gets below 3.5 or 3.4 volts. I recharge at 3.8 or 3.7 volts. The cells have no memory. Recharge more often whenever possible and your cells will last much longer and provide better output.


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 15, 2017)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> Okay, let's make this really easy. The cutoff of regulation being set at 2.7 is violating the manufacturer warning. 2.7 is less than 2.75. It doesn't matter much anyways. Those cells should not be discharged down that low. If you bring them down that low, you will greatly reduce cell cycle life. You should probably be recharging the cells before the voltage gets below 3.5 or 3.4 volts. I recharge at 3.8 or 3.7 volts. The cells have no memory. Recharge more often whenever possible and your cells will last much longer and provide better output.



I agree with everything you said. Thanks for the reply. I feel like I have hijacked this thread long enough. On anther note, the light is just amazing. Really nice tint and CRI plus the spacing is great. I'll try and add some pics soon. I have the polished copper version and I haven't seen too many pics of that version.


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 18, 2017)

[/IMG]



[/IMG]


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## InvisibleFrodo (Nov 19, 2017)

Does anyone have any idea what emitters are being used in the beagle? I have a polished copper coming in the mail and I can’t wait to try it out.


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 21, 2017)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> Does anyone have any idea what emitters are being used in the beagle? I have a polished copper coming in the mail and I can’t wait to try it out.



[FONT=&quot]Im curious as well; Muyshondt is keeping it a secret. Regardless, the tint and CRI look fantastic to me. You are going to love it and the finish as long as you don't mind the extra ounces on the copper. Please check back in when you get it and let me know what you think. [/FONT]


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## trojansteel (Nov 21, 2017)

Tint compared to my 219c equipped Boss. Beagle to the right.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Nov 21, 2017)

“Houston, the Beagle has landed”.
I used my new polished copper Beagle last night after charging its new Muyshondt battery to 4.1 volts. I can almost certainly say that it is already my favorite light, and now I’m questioning if there is even a point to buying the Brass Boss combo and the Aluminum Bronze Flieger. The tint is beyond pleasant. I spent a fair amount of time doing A-B-A-B comparisons with several other lights using a bouquet of flowers that I bought for my fiancé as the subject I was illuminating. The colors that the Beagle’s flood ring showed in the flowers really appeared more vivid and more “alive” than any of my other lights including My AA Maratac with the Nichia emitter and the 47’s Atom A0 candlepower anniversary light also using a Nichia emitter. Even my beloved Spy 007 with a high CRI XPG2 didn’t show the colors as well. And the flood ring gives a much broader beam than a typical mule flashlight which have circular beams with a sharply defined edge. The light would actually make an excellent home defense light in my opinion because when the flood beam and the “spot” beam are on together, it gives the user incredible situational awareness. None of the “tunnel vision” that can occur when a light has to be pointed back and fourth in order to illuminate an entire room.
The light is an absolute tank in copper. It weighs more than my Alpha custom, which is a significantly bigger light. I’m assuming with all that thermal mass heat will never be an issue. My only concern is a slight squeaking/rubbing sound between the titanium tail switch and the copper body when they rub past each other. I’m hoping it will smooth out over time and stop making sound. That and I wish the pocket clip had a little bit more tension because of how heavy the light is.
I’m honestly not a fan of reverse clickies, I prefer the ability to turn the light on without clicking it on when wanted, but the switch works, and it works well. 
Trojansteel, how do you feel about the Boss vs the Beagle as far as tint, beam pattern, color rendering and brightness?


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## Tixx (Nov 22, 2017)

I keep on wanting one. I love the concept! The weight of these just tells me I will catch and release it though.


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## usdiver (Nov 22, 2017)

My question is why ain’t anyone wanting the Flieger Mk I, cause it’s older, or cause it’s not two level? Trust me the Flieger will outperform and outlast the Beagle. 

Like the Aeon 2 Stage vs three stage. I spent 425 dollars for a three stage titanium and sold it for 300 dollars cause the led had more flood than throw... nicer tint but still not as useable for me. 

I think the Beagle is for those who don’t have to worry about real life situations... it does look pretty. I have two Fliegers and the runtime of the Beagle puts me off.

Thoughts? To each his own I guess.


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 22, 2017)

usdiver said:


> My question is why ain’t anyone wanting the Flieger Mk I, cause it’s older, or cause it’s not two level? Trust me the Flieger will outperform and outlast the Beagle.
> I think the Beagle is for those who don’t have to worry about real life situations... it does look pretty. I have two Fliegers and the runtime of the Beagle puts me off.



I would love a Flieger. They both excel in their intended uses and don't necessarily compete against each other but instead fulfill different roles. My estimation is that the Flieger is king when the situation demands more power, more throw, and benefits from those amazing runtimes where as the Beagle shines when up close to midrange tasks will be the majority of illumination duty and shorter runtimes are a good tradeoff for pocket-ability. I'd love to see a pic of those Fliegers in action....


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 22, 2017)

trojansteel said:


> Tint compared to my 219c equipped Boss. Beagle to the right.




Awesome beam shots!! I've been creeping those Boss's for a while now. I would love a brass model. Unfortunately, my Manker E-14 sort of fills that niche; minus the cool features and top notch build quality.


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## xdayv (Nov 22, 2017)

usdiver said:


> My question is why ain’t anyone wanting the Flieger Mk I, cause it’s older, or cause it’s not two level? Trust me the Flieger will outperform and outlast the Beagle.



One of the wishlists for Flieger is to have a pocket clip... so this might explain one of the reasons to prefer the Beagle. At least for me, that's how I look at it, YMMV.


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## usdiver (Nov 22, 2017)

LogicalBeard said:


> I would love a Flieger. They both excel in their intended uses and don't necessarily compete against each other but instead fulfill different roles. My estimation is that the Flieger is king when the situation demands more power, more throw, and benefits from those amazing runtimes where as the Beagle shines when up close to midrange tasks will be the majority of illumination duty and shorter runtimes are a good tradeoff for pocket-ability. I'd love to see a pic of those Fliegers in action....



Keep an eye in my channel you tube sdsteveb


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## usdiver (Nov 22, 2017)

xdayv said:


> One of the wishlists for Flieger is to have a pocket clip... so this might explain one of the reasons to prefer the Beagle. At least for me, that's how I look at it, YMMV.



I ve actually been thinking about a design regarding the clip... should be easy


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 22, 2017)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> “Houston, the Beagle has landed”.
> I used my new polished copper Beagle last night after charging its new Muyshondt battery to 4.1 volts. I can almost certainly say that it is already my favorite light, and now I’m questioning if there is even a point to buying the Brass Boss combo and the Aluminum Bronze Flieger. The tint is beyond pleasant. I spent a fair amount of time doing A-B-A-B comparisons with several other lights using a bouquet of flowers that I bought for my fiancé as the subject I was illuminating. The colors that the Beagle’s flood ring showed in the flowers really appeared more vivid and more “alive” than any of my other lights including My AA Maratac with the Nichia emitter and the 47’s Atom A0 candlepower anniversary light also using a Nichia emitter. Even my beloved Spy 007 with a high CRI XPG2 didn’t show the colors as well. And the flood ring gives a much broader beam than a typical mule flashlight which have circular beams with a sharply defined edge. The light would actually make an excellent home defense light in my opinion because when the flood beam and the “spot” beam are on together, it gives the user incredible situational awareness. None of the “tunnel vision” that can occur when a light has to be pointed back and fourth in order to illuminate an entire room.
> The light is an absolute tank in copper. It weighs more than my Alpha custom, which is a significantly bigger light. I’m assuming with all that thermal mass heat will never be an issue. My only concern is a slight squeaking/rubbing sound between the titanium tail switch and the copper body when they rub past each other. I’m hoping it will smooth out over time and stop making sound. That and I wish the pocket clip had a little bit more tension because of how heavy the light is.
> I’m honestly not a fan of reverse clickies, I prefer the ability to turn the light on without clicking it on when wanted, but the switch works, and it works well.
> Trojansteel, how do you feel about the Boss vs the Beagle as far as tint, beam pattern, color rendering and brightness?




Nice comparisons on the tint. The Spy and the Prometheus are on my wishlist. I'm bummed to hear about the squeaking. Someone else, I think in the Facebook group, reported the same thing. Are you leaving your thumb on the button after half pressing when cycling through modes? If I lift my thumb off of the button while cycling I get sort of a soft clacking sound. Sort of like a speaker giving a lecture who has cotton mouth. Otherwise it is silent when I keep my thumb in contact through the travel of the button press. I'm guessing Muyshondt would find a solution if you wanted to go that route. I'm wondering the same questions about the Boss vs the Beagle. Those Boss's look great.


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 22, 2017)

usdiver said:


> Keep an eye in my channel you tube sdsteveb



Subscribed.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Nov 22, 2017)

xdayv said:


> One of the wishlists for Flieger is to have a pocket clip... so this might explain one of the reasons to prefer the Beagle. At least for me, that's how I look at it, YMMV.



This is my biggest gripe about the Flieger. The Aeon Finally got a pocket clip. The Beagle has a pocket clip. For me, the Flieger is too big to just go in the bottom of a pocket. I don't really like using a holster, I find them cumbersome, and most people think it looks a little silly in my experience.

Also, I think of the Beagle as a general purpose light. 90% of the use I find for flashlights when I'm not at work consists of brief periods of use and almost always at relatively close range. I find that the Beagle's second brightest output actually works very well, and is very bright. Its runtime of 2 hours is plenty in my opinion, especially when the battery has no memory, and can be charged whenever needed. The flood ring puts out a flawless wall of light, and the color rendering is probably the best I've ever seen in my opinion.

I haven't had the chance to try a Flieger, but I would like to. Has anyone been able to use a Beagle and a Flieger side by side? I'm curious how the beam patterns, tints, and colors rendered compare between the two.


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## usdiver (Nov 23, 2017)

I m in England so the Flieger vs Beagle is a no brainer in the sense if I could I would. 
But if you care to have a look at my YouTube channel sdsteveb and let me know what you think I d appreciate it...

To be honest The runtime on the Beagle put me off... I need throw and runtime...and I hope he’s reading this. Put a clip on the Flieger and you’ll sell loads.
I have a proto and production model. If he’s not reading dont worry guys cause I m thinking what to do with that Flieger non clip... even if it means buying a Fenix Clip or some sort... but we don’t want to mess up the finish especially on a $600 Light!Folks, now is the time to tell the company what YOU want..Not what you should accept cause that’s what they want you to have!
The Black proto operates flawlessly...18650 eagletac battery no wiggle or movement... can’t get the Muyshondt batteries to England... bit sh** if you ask me!!! They should offer surface shipping!


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## kaichu dento (Nov 23, 2017)

Tixx said:


> I keep on wanting one. I love the concept! The weight of these just tells me I will catch and release it though.


I want one in 7075 with the only copper being in the heatsinking areas.


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 23, 2017)

kaichu dento said:


> I want one in 7075 with the only copper being in the heatsinking areas.



If you didn't know, the titanium model has a "solid copper heatsink that is[FONT=&quot] polished and gold plated to create a superior thermal juncture to the copper core LED board". [/FONT]​


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## InvisibleFrodo (Nov 23, 2017)

kaichu dento said:


> I want one in 7075 with the only copper being in the heatsinking areas.



I wonder if the reflector is machined out of copper to aid in heatsinking as it is in the Aeon flashlight. He doesn't say it is on his website, but the light is so heavy. I love it. I would get a Flieger in Aluminum Bronze.

Why is 7075 so popular for flashlights these days? I realize that 6061 doesn't seem to sound as flashy or as "prestigious"- 7075 is more expensive and more difficult to machine. It is harder and tougher and stronger. Hence the bragging rights. But 6061 is lighter weight, has greater electrical conductivity and greater thermal conductivity.

In my mind, the flashlight body and head materials are there to conduct electricity, pull heat off the electronics, and protect the inside of the light. A Beagle or a Flieger made from 6061 would be more than strong enough to park a car on top of and have the light be okay except for some little dents where it was up against concrete. It wouldn't look museum quality anymore, but I bet you it would still function 100%.


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## kaichu dento (Nov 23, 2017)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> Why is 7075 so popular for flashlights these days? I realize that 6061 doesn't seem to sound as flashy or as "prestigious"- 7075 is more expensive and more difficult to machine. It is harder and tougher and stronger. Hence the bragging rights. But 6061 is lighter weight, has greater electrical conductivity and greater thermal conductivity.
> 
> In my mind, the flashlight body and head materials are there to conduct electricity, pull heat off the electronics, and protect the inside of the light. A Beagle or a Flieger made from 6061 would be more than strong enough to park a car on top of and have the light be okay except for some little dents where it was up against concrete. It wouldn't look museum quality anymore, but I bet you it would still function 100%.


Additional durability is why many of us are liking their light made from 7075, and remember, titanium looks terrible on paper for conductivity of both heat and electricity , but performs just fine in the real world. 
Bragging rights are overrated and while they matter much to some, not at all to others like me and I'm not as interested in parking my car on top of my lights as I am about the integrity of their finishes.


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## trojansteel (Nov 25, 2017)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> Trojansteel, how do you feel about the Boss vs the Beagle as far as tint, beam pattern, color rendering and brightness?



I actually returned my beagle, but, as you can see in the picture, the beagle was significantly warmer. I’m not an expert as to color rendering. 

The boss at max is significantly brighter than max beagle. I also thought the first three levels of Beagle flood were redundant. And Levels 4 and 5 too close in brightness. I prefer the Boss’s 3 distinct brightness levels following amber. (Of course the boss is fully programmable too).

As for beam pattern.... the moonlight (L1) mode on the beagle is essentially flawless. Especially when compared to my Boss with the stainless steel bezel. The boss moonlight emits from an off center amber, so the bezel actually alters that beam pattern. Some might care about this, but in practice, I feel a jacked up amber moonlight beam pattern is much better than a perfect white pattern.

I think the boss beam pattern has more flood than the Beagle since the peripheral ring of lights don’t do much after several yards. The Boss has way more flood than an HDS.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Nov 25, 2017)

trojansteel said:


> I actually returned my beagle, but, as you can see in the picture, the beagle was significantly warmer. I’m not an expert as to color rendering.




How come you returned the Beagle? I thought the spread between setting 4 and 5 is quite a step up in brightness. That central emitter jumps from 95 lumens up to 365 lumens. For me, the Beagle is literally all about the flood ring and the fact that it is essentially two flashlights rolled into one. It's an excellent mule and a traditional reflector light in one.

You mentioned the boss being brighter than the Beagle. Are you running the Nichias in the Boss? Any idea what the runtime is at those settings or do you know what you have the wattage set at for that brightness setting? Also one last thing, any idea how long it takes for the thermal protection to start bumping the brightness down, or if it does at all at that setting? Okay one more question, since you where talking about beam pattern, what optic is in the boss?

I'm still very interested in how the boss compares and contrasts with the beagle. I think they could make a pretty slick pair.


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## trojansteel (Nov 25, 2017)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> How come you returned the Beagle? I thought the spread between setting 4 and 5 is quite a step up in brightness. That central emitter jumps from 95 lumens up to 365 lumens. For me, the Beagle is literally all about the flood ring and the fact that it is essentially two flashlights rolled into one. It's an excellent mule and a traditional reflector light in one.
> 
> You mentioned the boss being brighter than the Beagle. Are you running the Nichias in the Boss? Any idea what the runtime is at those settings or do you know what you have the wattage set at for that brightness setting? Also one last thing, any idea how long it takes for the thermal protection to start bumping the brightness down, or if it does at all at that setting? Okay one more question, since you where talking about beam pattern, what optic is in the boss?
> 
> I'm still very interested in how the boss compares and contrasts with the beagle. I think they could make a pretty slick pair.



I can’t answer all your questions. I bought both at the same time knowing I would return one of them. My boss has triple 219c.

I felt the beagle just had too many modes. There’s never a real situation where L2 preferable to L3, or L4 vs L5. The 5 levels seem redundant. In reality, I feel I only need a distinct moonlight, medium, high. 

The boss has the ultimate moonlight with the red or amber. And the Boss Low is basically any other lights medium, the Boss medium basically a high. I seldom use the Boss on max. I know the Beagle is electronically very impressive, but from a practical standpoint, I just prefer the boss.

Ergonomically, I also really didn’t like the beagle clip; The four corners are very sharp.

The threads on the boss are sooo robust, and so smooth on my brass example.


----------



## LogicalBeard (Nov 26, 2017)

trojansteel said:


> I canÂ’t answer all your questions. I bought both at the same time knowing I would return one of them. My boss has triple 219c.
> 
> I felt the beagle just had too many modes. ThereÂ’s never a real situation where L2 preferable to L3, or L4 vs L5. The 5 levels seem redundant. In reality, I feel I only need a distinct moonlight, medium, high.
> 
> ...




Great input. Sounds like the Boss is a grail for you! I’m the opposite on my preferences. L1 is a great moonlight for me when I’m in the car or around the house to preserve night vision or reading. L2 is a great step up for some more light navigating or looking for stuff in dark rooms/spaces. L3 is another nice bump for maximum flood; in truth, I would like a tad more lumens on L3 but I’m guessing they would be overdriven/inefficient any higher. Then L4 is another nice punch to view stuff farther away yet still provide good run-times. And then of course L5 to see even farther. I have a use for every mode and couldn’t give up a single level. Heck, I would even add a 30 second turbo for L6! I use mine indoors mostly. For throw I have a Manker Mk35 that makes a great team. Sounds like you use Boss/flashlights outdoors a bit? Has anyone tested one with an integrated sphere yet?


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## InvisibleFrodo (Nov 27, 2017)

trojansteel said:


> I felt the beagle just had too many modes. There’s never a real situation where L2 preferable to L3, or L4 vs L5. The 5 levels seem redundant. In reality, I feel I only need a distinct moonlight, medium, high.
> 
> 
> Ergonomically, I also really didn’t like the beagle clip; The four corners are very sharp.
> ...



I have to agree completely about the pocket clip. It is pretty angular and the corners are still almost yes, sharp.

As far as level 4 versus level 5 on the Beagle, it's a big runtime difference. Level 4 gets 2.66 times the runtime of mode 5. To be honest, if I'm not outside in the open, I find level 5 to be excessively bright especially for indoor use. And I feel a 45 minute runtime is just too short. As such I tend to treat level 5 as sort of a "turbo" mode and it only gets used in relatively short bursts.

Are your settings on the boss stock, or did you set them yourself?


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## trojansteel (Nov 27, 2017)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> Are your settings on the boss stock, or did you set them yourself?



Stock RLMH


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## LogicalBeard (Dec 2, 2017)

Has anyone done any runtime tests? I did some quick and dirty amp readings with a Fluke 117 and the Beagle battery at 4.16 volts. 
Level one: 12 mah 
level two: 49 mah
level three: 230 mah
level four: 407 mah
level five: 1217 mah


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## thenikjones (Dec 2, 2017)

I have a Beagle and am in the UK. Got the Muyshondt battery too - the red AW is higher capacity and a lot cheaper. 

Got my prototype in June and it compared well with Spy and Haiku. Now the proper dark is here, it is not as good. I have had it as my EDC for the last months and it is too smooth, not as nice as the Haiku. 5 levels controlled for a button is far inferior to the control knob on the SPY. The Beagle runtime is not great, for a 75 minute run I needed to change batteries. I think level 4is best as you get the full flood and a bit of throw - cycling between 3 and 4 is a royal PITA so stick with level 4, which drains the cell faster. Getting GITD on the Beagle is a pain too, the rubber cover of the Haiku is easy to get a Glow version off, the SPY has tritium slots milled into it by default. 

Never considered a Beagle vs Flieger as I already have a SPY so why get a Flieger? I am thinking of getting a BOSS so will be interested in comparing it. The built in Glow o ring is a nice feature.

EDIT the Beagle reverse clicky is an awful feature. If I am on level 3 or 4 and want a quick boost, I then have to cycle through the modes to get back to 3 or 4 again. With a forward clicky I could lightly press to get the boost and not fanny around through the stages. When out running, this cycling is another royal PITA. It is also a surprisingly dense lump of metal in the hand. Solid and small, but heavy.


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## LogicalBeard (Dec 2, 2017)

thenikjones said:


> I have a Beagle and am in the UK. Got the Muyshondt battery too - the red AW is higher capacity and a lot cheaper.
> 
> Got my prototype in June and it compared well with Spy and Haiku. Now the proper dark is here, it is not as good. I have had it as my EDC for the last months and it is too smooth, not as nice as the Haiku. 5 levels controlled for a button is far inferior to the control knob on the SPY. The Beagle runtime is not great, for a 75 minute run I needed to change batteries. I think level 4is best as you get the full flood and a bit of throw - cycling between 3 and 4 is a royal PITA so stick with level 4, which drains the cell faster. Getting GITD on the Beagle is a pain too, the rubber cover of the Haiku is easy to get a Glow version off, the SPY has tritium slots milled into it by default.
> 
> ...




[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Thanks for the comments. I have a few questions:[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The prototype was better in what ways?[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Too smooth as in the texture of the production model is too slippery?[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Which Spy model do you have?[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The BOSS is such a different animal but I would love a comparison. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]What forward clicky flashlight light do you have that you were describing? [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]My favorite UI is the Toykeeper firmware on the Manker E14. Same UI/reverse clicky as the Beagle except a long press lets you go back a level. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Do you use your flashlights mostly indoors, outdoors, or an even mix?[/FONT][/FONT]


----------



## InvisibleFrodo (Dec 2, 2017)

I'm also confused about the mode cycling comments you made.

The way I understand, you're saying you can press the button momentarily to momentarily increase brightness?

On my forward clicky lights like the Haiku, if I'm in mode 2 and I want to get to mode 3, I have to click the light, so it can be turned off, then a brief off cycle to switch modes. With the Haiku, I have no choice but to go through mode 3 in order to get to mode 1 from mode 2.

With the beagle, if I'm in mode 4 and I want to get to mode 3, I can go through 5, 1, and 2, but I don't have to. More often then not, I will lightly hold the clicky for about 2 seconds which will make light go straight into mode 1 from mode 4 (or any other mode) then it's two quick bumps up to 3.

Yes, doing something like switching back and forth between setting 3 and 4 is easiest with a rotary knob like the spy. I can't disagree with that.


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## thenikjones (Dec 2, 2017)

The prototype is the one I have. The shape is a simple tube. The knurling is nicely done, but it is still basically a cylinder. The Haiku is far nicer to hold, and the flared end makes a cigar hold very comfy

The SPY is XM-L2. It is the last of the engraved ones Data sold. 6 modes you can program as you wish -the more modes you have, the more useful programming is. 

If the Beagle was a forward clicky then I would lightly press the button to get the higher mode, then release to go back to the current mode (I assume). As it is, I am doing a lot of cycling. Gets very wearing. Casually going between, say, modes 3 and 5 is not fun. 

Use is a mix of indoors and out. For indoors, the dim modes are critical and the Beagle has as bright a dim as I want -the Haiku is too bright. For outside use, the Beagle is not as good a thrower as the XP-G2 Haiku and the SPY is not a thrower but 3300mA generates a wall of light that goes further than the Beagle level 5 does. 

Around the house, anything will do. My niche use is running in the dark, a torch in the hand is a good adjunct to a headlamp. For this the SPY would be ideal except for long runs, where battery changes are a PITA (the Vault cap would help here). The Haiku outlasts the Beagle, I fancy trying a BOSS to see how it compares.


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## archimedes (Dec 2, 2017)

thenikjones said:


> ....
> If the Beagle was a forward clicky then I would lightly press the button to get the higher mode, then release to go back to the current mode (I assume)....



This is not how forward clicky switches work.


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## staticx57 (Dec 2, 2017)

You’re describing a two stage switch not a forward clicky. Forward clicky cycles through modes while the light is off by momentarily turning it on. Reverse clicky cycles through modes while on while momentary turning it off. Neither would accomplish a momentary turbo.


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## thenikjones (Dec 2, 2017)

My apologies. It is not really a momentary turbo I want, it is the ability to access the next level with a press, then release to stay at same level. I am sure it is not impossible. If you regularly want to switch modes - which I do when outside - then the Beagle is awkward. 

If Indid not have a SPY then maybe this would be less of an issue. I do, though, and that control knob is fantastic.


----------



## archimedes (Dec 2, 2017)

I am still having trouble understanding precisely what you are describing for UI ... could you give a specific example of a flashlight (make and model) with this exact user interface ?


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## LogicalBeard (Dec 2, 2017)

thenikjones said:


> The prototype is the one I have. The shape is a simple tube. The knurling is nicely done, but it is still basically a cylinder. The Haiku is far nicer to hold, and the flared end makes a cigar hold very comfy
> 
> The SPY is XM-L2. It is the last of the engraved ones Data sold. 6 modes you can program as you wish -the more modes you have, the more useful programming is.
> 
> ...




[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]I think I understand better now. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]By “proper dark” you mean it gets dark sooner and you are able to make a better comparison. Muyshondt has a “darkwell” finish I thought you were referencing. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]While running you don’t like the cylinder shape. A lanyard around the clip might work if that was your only grievance. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]I’m guessing you have the 005 model? I was wondering if you had the tri with the aspheric. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Ah you were just describing a UI you would like in theory. If a light press would give you a momentary boost, what method would you like to cycle through modes? Maybe a full quick click? Sounds interesting. Somebody should write the program for that. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]What mode do you use the Beagle in while running? 4? If so, does it last the stated two hours?[/FONT][/FONT]


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## LogicalBeard (Dec 3, 2017)

I tested level 4 with an AW IMR 18350 700mAH starting voltage 4.17. Started dimming at 2 hours on the nose. This was one continuous run without shutting the light off. I'm very pleased with the results.


EDIT: The battery used for testing is about a year old and has seen use. I'm not sure how significant that is in terms of potential available capacity but if anything it hurt the runtimes.


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## thenikjones (Dec 4, 2017)

LogicalBeard said:


> [FONT="][FONT="]I think I understand better now. [/FONT][/FONT]
> [FONT="][FONT="]By “proper dark” you mean it gets dark sooner and you are able to make a better comparison. Muyshondt has a “darkwell” finish I thought you were referencing. [/FONT][/FONT]
> [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
> [/FONT]
> ...



Sorry, my stream of consciousness is not helping. 

Yes, proper dark = late autumn, early winter. Testing 9pm now is more revealing than 11am late July. As it happens. I have the Frosted finish - nice but I would go polished next time. 

The Haiku has ribbing and contouring which does help. I feel the Beagle needs the lovely knurling - and it is very nice - up around the smooth head, where my thumb and forefinger grip it. 

I was describing what I would like to have -apologies to Archimedes for very poorly describing this. Maybe the Double Tap that the Prometheus Alpha (I think)has? 

I hope to be out Wednesday night and will keep at Level 4, will let you know the duration I get.

EDIT: I have a 007, XM-L2 from before Data introduced the current Ultra model. To change batteries you need to push a little button - a PITA in the middle of nowhere. Would love to get one with the Vault cap but spending another $1800-ish just for the Vault cap? A bit too extravagant, even for me...


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## archimedes (Dec 4, 2017)

thenikjones said:


> Sorry, my stream of consciousness is not helping....
> 
> I was describing what I would like to have -apologies to Archimedes for very poorly describing this. Maybe the Double Tap that the Prometheus Alpha (I think)has? ....



No worries, but I just couldn't understand what you were wanting ... a "SureFire tactical" type switch (forward press for more light, release for less, twist for lock, no click) , or an HDS type e-switch with press-hold (momentary high) vs click-press-hold-release (locked high) , or forward vs reverse clicky, or something else altogether :thinking:


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## LogicalBeard (Dec 5, 2017)

thenikjones said:


> Sorry, my stream of consciousness is not helping.
> 
> Yes, proper dark = late autumn, early winter. Testing 9pm now is more revealing than 11am late July. As it happens. I have the Frosted finish - nice but I would go polished next time.
> 
> ...




As long as level 4 for has enough throw for you. I would be interested in your runtimes. 

The Prometheus Alpha seems like it would have a good beam profile for your application but I can't say since I'm only going on reviews and what little I have seen from Jason's videos. 

I love those spy's but I will probably never have one. It would be hard to change the batteries in the dark with that little bead I suppose. If you know how long your runs usually are, seems like you could program your output to match up pretty well. Does your spy get the most use?


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## thenikjones (Dec 5, 2017)

I want a way to quickly access the next level, but not permanently switch to it. Not sure how to do this - I have an old Fenix with a bezel ring which might work, the SPY knob is perfect. The issue I have with the Beagle is cycling through 5 levels is a PITA. It is a 1st world problem, I accept. Overall, the positives outweigh the negatives.


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## thenikjones (Dec 5, 2017)

I would love an Alpha but spent enough this year - have his pen and the AAA light so I know it’ll be a work of art in the hand. If money grew on trees I’d be getting a McGizmo Aqua, too. 

My SPY is dialled in pretty well, although modes 4 and 5 are rather close - something to tinker with over Christmas. It is not cheap but if you can play with one, I am sure you’d love it. I would love to have a Tri-V but $4500 is too rich for meI’d find it a bit of a faff - the 007 with 6 levels for one emitter is great. 6 levels for a mix of 3 emitters seems a bit limiting. I’d need to live with one for some time to make the choice and that will never happen. 

My SPY is my most used torch, the size is perfect, doesn’t roll, stable as anything. Settings from about 2mA to 3300mA. My flexible friend.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Dec 7, 2017)

I'm surprised nobody has said anything about the new copper finishes.
The new frosted finish is interesting, he doesn't have any information on what exactly they did to the copper.
And the new version of the relic finish seems to be much darker than it was before. Almost black. Looks to me like maybe it's now being heat treated to achieve the super dark color.


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## xdayv (Dec 13, 2017)

So what's the verdict guys? It seems to me there have been some (early) issues but are they resolved by now? probably isolated cases.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Dec 13, 2017)

xdayv said:


> So what's the verdict guys? It seems to me there have been some (early) issues but are they resolved by now? probably isolated cases.



What are those? I'd like to be aware of what to watch for...


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## xdayv (Dec 13, 2017)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> What are those? I'd like to be aware of what to watch for...



Based on my limited readings (take note I don't own one; these are unverified, so please take it lightly):

-pwm or circuit noise on 4th level (from a proto) 
-cross threading at the tailcap
-sensitivity of the reverse clicky


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## LogicalBeard (Dec 16, 2017)

xdayv said:


> Based on my limited readings (take note I don't own one; these are unverified, so please take it lightly):
> 
> -pwm or circuit noise on 4th level (from a proto)
> -cross threading at the tailcap
> -sensitivity of the reverse clicky



And squeaky noise when operating the tail switch.

No issues on mine.


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## LogicalBeard (Dec 16, 2017)

xdayv said:


> Based on my limited readings (take note I don't own one; these are unverified, so please take it lightly):
> 
> -pwm or circuit noise on 4th level (from a proto)
> -cross threading at the tailcap
> -sensitivity of the reverse clicky



And squeaky noise when operating the tail switch.

No issues on mine.


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## LogicalBeard (Dec 16, 2017)

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I did some testing with SF12-BB surefire CR123As. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When the current can’t sustain level 5, level 3 is also the dropped. In practice when cycling through modes you get level 1, (normal rated output), level 2 (normal rated output), level 3 (same output as mode 2), level 4 (normal rated output), and level 5 gives you the same output as level 4. Next, level 4 will decrease in brightness until finally the center emitter shuts off. Then one can cycle back through to turn on the center emitter again with level 4 until finally it gives up. However, if the light stays on level 1 or 2 for a while, the battery voltage will come back up and, presto, you can get the center emitter to give a little output again. It’s like the Energizer Bunny.[/FONT]


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## xdayv (Dec 17, 2017)

@LogicalBeard - how are you liking the Beagle so far?


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## Ozythemandias (Dec 17, 2017)

PWM on level 4 was only on prototype as far as I’m aware. And not really PWM but circuit noise 

My main question is where are these manufactured????? I’m fairly confident they are made in China and that is glossed over due to negative connotations


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## LogicalBeard (Dec 18, 2017)

xdayv said:


> @LogicalBeard - how are you liking the Beagle so far?



I love it. Anything specific you wanted to know?


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## LogicalBeard (Dec 18, 2017)

Ozythemandias said:


> PWM on level 4 was only on prototype as far as I’m aware. And not really PWM but circuit noise
> 
> My main question is where are these manufactured????? I’m fairly confident they are made in China and that is glossed over due to negative connotations



You might be right. My cursory search couldn't find a "made in" reference. Do you think even the CNC work and assembling is done in China?


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## InvisibleFrodo (Dec 18, 2017)

LogicalBeard said:


> You might be right. My cursory search couldn't find a "made in" reference. Do you think even the CNC work and assembling is done in China?



Chinese manufacturing has some bad reputation, but a lot of high end products are made in China. However, that can just mean that it is assembled in China. Often the materials and components will come from all over.

For whatever it's worth, often companies will specify that materials cannot come from China. I've worked for a company that has built equipment for NASA, and they have a list of countries in their contract that the raw materials cannot come from. It sounds like alloys made in China aren't necessarily the same as the equivalent alloys made in the US or Austria or Japan, etc.


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## xdayv (Dec 18, 2017)

LogicalBeard said:


> I love it. Anything specific you wanted to know?


How's the:

1. Build Quality
2. UI


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## InvisibleFrodo (Dec 18, 2017)

I have now had the beagle turn on twice while clipped to my pocket. I only mention it because the only other nicer lights I have that have issues with turning on in my pocket are the 47's Preons (which also have a reverse clicky) and The Cool Fall Spy 007. My lights that use McClickies (Surefire P6, Prometheus Alpha, McGizmo Haiku) don't ever seem to turn on in my pocket.

I'll say that to me the build quality is about as good as it gets.

The user interface is very simple and straightforward. No mode memory so it always starts at the lowest setting if the light has been off for about 2 seconds or more. I would say that I prefer forward clickies, but the beagle is the first reverse clicky that I've really really liked. It makes me question which switch style I truly prefer... I can't even explain why exactly, but I prefer the reverse clicky of the Beagle to the reverse clicky of my Preon P2.


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## Ozythemandias (Dec 18, 2017)

How can it turn on accidentally if the switch is located outside of the pocket, and recessed below the level of the tail? 

Not doubting you, just has to be some oddly specific circumstances to get that to happen. 

With regards to China and low build quality, i learned a while ago to disassociate any correlations. I’m in manufacturing and if you know what you’re doing (and paying the right price) you can get extremely high quality goods out of China. I’ve long since come to the conclusion that country of origin is meaningless with regards to quality.


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## xdayv (Dec 18, 2017)

Thanks @InvisibleFrodo


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## LogicalBeard (Dec 19, 2017)

xdayv said:


> How's the:
> 
> 1. Build Quality
> 2. UI



Build quality seems top notch. A few nitpicks: the polished copper on mine had a few imperfections that you couldn’t see unless you really looked under good light. The right torx screw had to be tightened. Otherwise, the machining is perfect, the threads are super smooth, the titanium switch is great, the individual CNC knurling looks cool and feels great; it feels very premium. 

The UI is also great. All 5 light output levels serve a useful and irreplaceable purpose. The tail switch has a very nice click both sound and feed back when turning on. Half presses cycle through modes. Holding in the switch or turning the light off for 3 seconds will reset you back to moonlight. 

Wishlist: 30 second turbo, battery check, option to cycle backwards through levels with long presses. I understand the philosophies for leaving features like these out. 


I expected a review from somebody by now. I’d write one but it would be my first one, I’m not good with beamshots, and I don’t have a light box or light meter. 

I’d be happy to answer any other questions.


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## xdayv (Dec 19, 2017)

@LogicalBeard, thanks for the feedback, appreciate it. Curious about this:

"Holding in the switch or turning the light off for 3 seconds will reset you back to moonlight. "

Holding in the switch - meaning if I press an hold the switch, it will go back to moonlight? 

Cool. [emoji106]


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## LogicalBeard (Dec 19, 2017)

xdayv said:


> @LogicalBeard, thanks for the feedback, appreciate it. Curious about this:
> 
> "Holding in the switch or turning the light off for 3 seconds will reset you back to moonlight. "
> 
> ...



Have you had a light where a half press cycles you through modes? The trick is to half press just like you would to cycle to the next brightness, but instead of letting go quickly, you hold it in for 3 seconds. This tricks the flashlight into thinking you have turned it off. It’s a trick you can do with any reverse clicky. Just a nice trick when you want to go back to level one without clicking the flashlight off.


Edit: despite the amount of times I used the word “tricks”, I am not planning on opening up a magic shop.


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## xdayv (Dec 19, 2017)

Cool trick! But I guess it won't work for a reverse clicky with mode memory?


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## LogicalBeard (Dec 19, 2017)

xdayv said:


> Cool trick! But I guess it won't work for a reverse clicky with mode memory?



Yeah. Won’t work with mode memory.


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## xdayv (Dec 19, 2017)

LogicalBeard said:


> Yeah. Won’t work with mode memory.


Thanks. BTW do you notice signs of cross threading at the tailcap as previously reported by a user? Should I be extra cautious when winding down?


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## Ozythemandias (Dec 19, 2017)

I don’t see how cross threading is possible with these large square cut threads. I wouldn’t overly worry about it, the threading is better quality than almost all lights out there


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## xdayv (Dec 19, 2017)

Ozythemandias said:


> I don’t see how cross threading is possible with these large square cut threads. I wouldn’t overly worry about it, the threading is better quality than almost all lights out there


Good to hear that! Thanks.


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## nbp (Dec 20, 2017)

thenikjones said:


> I want a way to quickly access the next level, but not permanently switch to it. Not sure how to do this - I have an old Fenix with a bezel ring which might work, the SPY knob is perfect. The issue I have with the Beagle is cycling through 5 levels is a PITA. It is a 1st world problem, I accept. Overall, the positives outweigh the negatives.



I would check out HDS as Archimedes mentioned. You can easily do just this. Press and hold from a lower mode to get "fullblast" then release the button to return to the selected mode.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Dec 27, 2017)

nbp said:


> I would check out HDS as Archimedes mentioned. You can easily do just this. Press and hold from a lower mode to get "fullblast" then release the button to return to the selected mode.



I agree that HDS would be the way to go. If you think that the SPY knob is the ideal system, then the HDS rotary might be even more your speed.turn it one way to turn the brightness up, turn it the other way to turn the brightness down, and the button turns the light on and off. And I think there might still be a shortcut to full power.


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## kaichu dento (Dec 27, 2017)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> I agree that HDS would be the way to go. If you think that the SPY knob is the ideal system, then the HDS rotary might be even more your speed.turn it one way to turn the brightness up, turn it the other way to turn the brightness down, and the button turns the light on and off. *And I think there might still be a shortcut to full power.*


Yes, full power shortcut works on the Rotary, and drops back to the selected setting when you let go of the button.


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## DellSuperman (Dec 27, 2017)

Owner of copper Beagle here.
One of the screw hole for the clip seem to have been thinned or damaged.
My clip will loosen every now & then, only to find that 1 of the screw hole/thread is damaged.

I removed the clip 2 times & both times i did not feel anything wrong when screwing the clip back on. And i did not over tighten the screws either. 

So im kind of curious on the issue 

I hv wrote in to them & they suggested that i send the light back to them to see if it can be fixed.


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## xdayv (Dec 27, 2017)

@DellSuperman - thanks for the report, pls keep us posted. 

Happy holidays to all.


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## DellSuperman (Dec 27, 2017)

xdayv said:


> @DellSuperman - thanks for the report, pls keep us posted.
> 
> Happy holidays to all.


Yes, definitely.

Other than the clip issue that i am facing, the light has been pretty awesome. 

The modes are very well spread out & the no memory is something that i prefer (pretty subjective for everyone though)

The level 1 to 3 are very useful in my close up work & i hv only used 4 & 5 a few times.


1 thing that i noticed on my copy is that the gasket above the glass has some free-play.
I found this out when i was trying to clean the glass & the red gasket shifted out. I was able to move it back into place without much issue but it makes me question the tightness of the seal.

Does anyone else faces this problem?


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## Rstype (Dec 28, 2017)

DellSuperman said:


> Yes, definitely.
> 
> Other than the clip issue that i am facing, the light has been pretty awesome.
> 
> ...



I have a titanium beagle , the clip itself has held very well. Never noticed it to shift or move. I have both pocket carried the light and clip it to my pants.

with the issue of the gasket above the glass I also haven't had any issues. Tried to forcefully have it move by using my finger and is holding well.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Jan 3, 2018)

Can anyone comment on how the Muyshondt Flieger compares to the Beagle as far as tint? Muyshondt calls it warm white, but that can mean many things. Has anyone been able to compare them side by side? Is the Flieger warmer, cooler, similar?


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## DellSuperman (Jan 4, 2018)

xdayv said:


> @DellSuperman - thanks for the report, pls keep us posted.
> 
> Happy holidays to all.


Hello all, after exchanging a few emails with Natalie from Muyshondt. This is what was happened:

Offered for me to send back the light for them to access with shipping at my own cost. 

Given the kind of damage, the offered method of fixing is to permanently adhere the clip/screw in place. However effectiveness of this fix is not guaranteed to work (i quote: "may or may not work" according to her) 

Warranty is 'voided' because clip was removed & the screw hole was deemed to be damaged by me.

All in all, i rejected the offer as they cannot guarantee the fix. Im disappointed with what happened about the clip because the light is pretty awesome for me & without a functional clip, i dont see myself using it much.

I'll try to find some options for the clip so that i can continue using the light.

Cheers
DS


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## carpdiem (Jan 6, 2018)

If the problem is just that your clip screws sometimes get loose, it might be solvable with something as simple as some lock tite on the threads. You could use the red version if you want something more permanent, or the blue if you want it to be easy to remove in the future.


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## DellSuperman (Jan 6, 2018)

carpdiem said:


> If the problem is just that your clip screws sometimes get loose, it might be solvable with something as simple as some lock tite on the threads. You could use the red version if you want something more permanent, or the blue if you want it to be easy to remove in the future.


The lock-tite will work if there is threads in the screw hole but mine is almost bare so i dont think it will work
There is no pressure on the clip to the body to ensure the tension.

Anyway i have found an alternative which is to use a spare Surefire Z41 based clip & filling the screw holes with epoxy to retain the water-tightness.


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## xdayv (Jan 6, 2018)

Thanks for the update DS.... hope that fix is good enough for now.


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## nbp (Jan 6, 2018)

Could someone like Precision Works drill the holes slightly larger and re-tap them and put new screws in? This might be more work than it’s worth, I dunno.


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## kaichu dento (Jan 7, 2018)

*unnecessary post deleted*


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## scout24 (Jan 7, 2018)

nbp said:


> Could someone like Precision Works drill the holes slightly larger and re-tap them and put new screws in? This might be more work than it’s worth, I dunno.



I don't think so, the recess in the clip where the heads of the screws sit is very narrow, bigger screws with bigger heads would likely necessitate machining the slot in the clip bigger and there's not much to work with there...


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## DellSuperman (Jan 7, 2018)

nbp said:


> Could someone like Precision Works drill the holes slightly larger and re-tap them and put new screws in? This might be more work than it’s worth, I dunno.


Im not too sure about taping larger holes since the 2 screw holes are pretty close to each other & it will leave very little wall thickness between the 2 screw holes.


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## Ozythemandias (Jan 7, 2018)

Devin (thetasigmas) posted a bushing he made to fit oveready loop style clips, might want to reach out to him.


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## nbp (Jan 7, 2018)

Ahh that’s right, the screw heads don’t sit on top of the clip they nest inside it. You’d need a whole different clip. That’s too bad.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Jan 7, 2018)

The one year warranty period is scary enough to me, because I feel that a one year warranty is pretty short lived. But if they don't stand behind the product, that's even scarier. I appreciate the way they tried to offer a solution, I just wish there would have been a better way to resolve the issue on such an expensive product.

I can't speak for everyone's light, but on my light, the holes for the screws go all the way through the sidewall of the light. And the threads are tapped all the way through. But the screws are short and only go about half way through the sidewall. Meaning there is unused thread past the ends of the screws. Maybe a combination of longer screws to take advantage of the remaining threads and some locktite while trying really hard not to overnight end since you won't be threaded no into much material...


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## InvisibleFrodo (Jan 7, 2018)

So I was out visiting my dad tonight when I looked inside my pocket, and the Beagle was on. But something was strange. The light was flickering. So the battery came out, and I checked the voltage. 2.05 volts. I never discharge below 3.7 or 3.6 volts. This is upsetting. This is the3rd time this light has come on in my pocket. And with no way to lock out the light, this is a problem I can’t avoid. Now I might have ruined the battery, and it’s not like it was from negligence. I’ll be charging at 100 mah starting when I get home in about 10 minutes. Even if everything works out now I’ll be wondering if or 
how badly I’ve damaged the cell and or shortened its life expectancy.

For you guys to know, the light did not cut off at 2.5 volts. It didn’t cut off.


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## Thetasigma (Jan 7, 2018)

For what it is worth, a solution to a loose clip or unsatisfactory clip tension, is to use an OR universal clip with a bushing to fill the space between the clip and OD of the tailcap.

*It is important to note however, that anything other than swapping batteries VOIDs their 1-year, 1st owner warranty.


*Example of an OR clip installed on my secondhand Beagle (hence no warranty anyway).


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## xdayv (Jan 7, 2018)

looking good @thetasigma thanks!


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## InvisibleFrodo (Jan 8, 2018)

May I ask why you are using the OVEREADY clip? Are your screw holes stripped?


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## scout24 (Jan 8, 2018)

Thetasigma- Pics of the spacer if you'd be so kind???


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## DellSuperman (Jan 8, 2018)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> May I ask why you are using the OVEREADY clip? Are your screw holes stripped?


He did mention that he isn't a huge fan of the clip's design


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## xdayv (Jan 8, 2018)

Is there now a caveat not to use the the default clip as this will eventually be problematic?


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## jon_slider (Jan 8, 2018)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> I looked inside my pocket, and the Beagle was on... I checked the voltage. 2.05 volts. ... This is the3rd time this light has come on in my pocket. And with no way to lock out the light, this is a problem I can’t avoid.
> ...
> For you guys to know, the light did not cut off at 2.5 volts. It didn’t cut off.



correct, the Beagle has no built in overdischarge protection, and the Muyshondt 183501 IMR has no protection circuit. 
It would we safer to *use a protected battery*.

here is the info from Muyshondt's site:
_Capable of running for hours on CR123s, Rechargeable CR123s, MPC-18350I cells, *and Protected 18350* Lithium Ion cells. (Power Cell not included)

Re MPC-183501 cells:
For Electric Torches and*Specialized Devices
These power cells have been created specifically to operate inside the Beagle*Electric Torch. *They are unprotected* lithium ion cells with an IMR chemistry cathode, meaning that extra caution must be utilized when operating any device with them, and they are not recommended for inexperienced users...

Re: Lithium-Ion safety:
the end user must exercise caution when using any lithium device, including a Muyshondt Power Cell.
•	If you let a cell drain below 2.7 volts, you can cause permanent damage to the cell that will at best greatly reduce the life of the cell, and at worst cause thermal venting.
•	If you ever discharge a cell below 2.7V, or are ever in doubt about cell damage, stop using the cell and dispose of it properly through a local battery recycler._

I suggest you only use Protected cells in lights like the Beagle that have no built in overdischarge protection in the light. fwiw, most lights that are capable of using both rechargeable and disposable cells, do not have built in protection in the light. They rely on the user choosing to buy protected cells, or use disposable cells.

It is more complex to design a circuit that will let a CR123 run below 2.5 volts, while protecting a 16340 from going below 2.5v. HDS has circuitry that can recognize the difference between a CR123 and a 16340. So HDS can run unprotected 16340, relying instead on the overdischarge protection built into the light. 

The Beagle does not have built in overdischarge protection, and no lockout function. 
Since it can come on accidentally in a pocket, *it would be safer to use protected cells, or disposables.*


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## Thetasigma (Jan 8, 2018)

I changed my clip because I don't like the stock clip, the holes are fine.

The bushing is literally just a little ring a smidge thinner than the clip


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## nbp (Jan 8, 2018)

That’s actually a pretty elegant solution. Well done!


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## Ozythemandias (Jan 9, 2018)

Regarding protection, Enrique does not like it and does not include it on any of his lights. This is not a design flaw, it’s a philosophy. I’m assuming that his reasoning is somewhere along lines that he’d rather damage battery then be left without a light when it’s needed. 

Devin and some others inspired me to attempt an emitter swap on my Beagle, I only had a 219b on hand so in it went. Anything is better than the gross XPL2, no clue why he chose that one. Even the lower output 219b out throws the XPL2 due to the smaller die, with amazing tint to boot. 

Something interesting to note is that my light is a prototype, the pill was threaded. It seems that production lights don’t have a threaded pill, it just slips in. I can’t imagine any reason Enrique would make the conscious decision to remove threading (an obviously superior design) other than cutting costs. For someone that goes on and on about attention to detail and quality uber alles, here’s an example of maybe cost savings uber quality. In a $500 light.


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## DellSuperman (Jan 9, 2018)

So is there a way to remove the head of a production light? I would assume to heat it up to soften the adhesive before pushing it out?


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## Ozythemandias (Jan 9, 2018)

DellSuperman said:


> So is there a way to remove the head of a production light? I would assume to heat it up to soften the adhesive before pushing it out?




The Bezel is threaded, once you remove that the pill slips out


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## Thetasigma (Jan 9, 2018)

*Note for the following: Doing literally anything to a Muyshondt light but changing the battery, voids the warranty and service.
*
I have some photos of the clip as well as the engine in the Beagle if you like.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/IfybhEoKnhoMCEgy1


There wasn't any glue that I could see, but it was quite tight and has very little surface to grip. I used my vise with rubber jaws I use for soldering to get a firm grip and loosen the inner bezel ring enough to twist it out with my fingers. Some leather lined channel locks might work too, but again surface area is problematic.
The production design itself is a smooth, thermal paste covered, pill which houses the driver and main LED. There is also a second set of wires coming from the pill that runs through the reflector and into the underside of the board housing the flood LEDs. The reflector itself has a set screw of sorts that indexes with the bezel ring and a slot in the pill to prevent the assembly from turning freely apart. There is of course a centering ring around the LED. Given the board shape the easiest thing to do was to reflow onto the stock board, but others could be modified to fit. Easiest method of re-assembly is to assemble the engine stack into the bezel right-side up, and then carefully flip the stack upside down and set the body down on top for re-assembly.

It is unfortunate that the production Beagles use a smooth pill instead of threaded pill of the prototypes which was a thermally superior design. However, the current levels employed shouldn't be sufficient to make the difference notable, just cheaper to produce, and probably easier to assemble.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Jan 9, 2018)

If the pill isn't threaded into place, can that give the light a greater chance of damage or issues from being dropped/ exposed to shock/ vibration?


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## Thetasigma (Jan 9, 2018)

I don't think so, the stack is pretty well compressed by the bezel ring.


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## LogicalBeard (Jan 12, 2018)

Thetasigma said:


> *Note for the following: Doing literally anything to a Muyshondt light but changing the battery, voids the warranty and service.
> *
> I have some photos of the clip as well as the engine in the Beagle if you like.
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/IfybhEoKnhoMCEgy1
> ...






Those pictures and info are great. What type of led is the center emitter and flood emitters? On the pill, is it really polished and gold plated? Why does a threaded pill make for a thermally superior design? Is it because it creates a tighter fit? I would think a press fit would have more points of contact. Lastly, the tail cap o-rings design seems unusual to me in that the seal is metal to metal? What do you make of this design and do you think the light is worthy of an ipx-7 or 8 rating?


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## IDprints (Feb 2, 2018)

I've owned a Beagle for for maybe 6 months and I've got to say that I absolutely love it.

One of my favorite things is that the Muyshondt 18350 cell can be removed and replaced with a CR123 on the go (it comes with a tube for proper fitment).

Probably my favorite EDC light to date.


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## LogicalBeard (Feb 10, 2018)

IDprints said:


> I've owned a Beagle for for maybe 6 months and I've got to say that I absolutely love it.
> 
> One of my favorite things is that the Muyshondt 18350 cell can be removed and replaced with a CR123 on the go (it comes with a tube for proper fitment).
> 
> Probably my favorite EDC light to date.




So you must have gotten a prototype then. This is bar none my favorite EDC light. 

I'm surprised there isn't more buzz around this light. What do you make of that? Too expensive? People prefer more hot-rod/programable lights like the BOSS?

My perfect solution was getting a KeepPower 1200mAh protected battery. When I messed around with a CR123 battery to check it out, I found I didn't have any rattle or issue and didn't need the tube.


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## Thetasigma (Feb 10, 2018)

LogicalBeard said:


> So you must have gotten a prototype then. This is bar none my favorite EDC light.
> 
> I'm surprised there isn't more buzz around this light. What do you make of that? Too expensive? People prefer more hot-rod/programable lights like the BOSS?



Price, warranty, customer service, not a novelty barn burner, etc...


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## thenikjones (Feb 11, 2018)

LogicalBeard said:


> So you must have gotten a prototype then. This is bar none my favorite EDC light.
> 
> I'm surprised there isn't more buzz around this light. What do you make of that? Too expensive? People prefer more hot-rod/programable lights like the BOSS?
> 
> My perfect solution was getting a KeepPower 1200mAh protected battery. When I messed around with a CR123 battery to check it out, I found I didn't have any rattle or issue and didn't need the tube.



I have a prototype and like it a lot, but hardly touched it since getting a BOSS late December. The main reasons are:

1. I love the BOSS Amber LED - I was a big fan of the SF filters and Amber is a lovely colour (no need to get an Aviator now)

2. My BOSS is aluminium and I love the low weight. Titanium offers no real benefit to me

3. The tail of the BOSS makes it lovely to hold. The tube shape of the Beagle is a let down. The knurling is fantastic but it is at the wrong end

4. The Beagle is hard to attach a lanyard too. The hole in the BOSS clip allows one to be threaded through easily. 

I like the Beagle but love the BOSS. Appreciate not everyone can buy multiple torches to spend a decent amount of time with though.


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## LogicalBeard (Feb 12, 2018)

thenikjones said:


> I have a prototype and like it a lot, but hardly touched it since getting a BOSS late December. The main reasons are:
> 
> 1. I love the BOSS Amber LED - I was a big fan of the SF filters and Amber is a lovely colour (no need to get an Aviator now)
> 
> ...





I really like the BOSS lights but I just can't make a compelling argument to myself that the beam pattern or tint is better for me. 

I prefer not have an amber mode. I would rather have the one lumen super floody Hi CRI better; at least I think I do. 

I'm assuming the titanium weight vs aluminum would be negligible; but maybe not. I actually EDC the copper beagle  

Knurling is essentially for looks on any flashlight if you ask me. That notwithstanding, I have zero issues with the beagle being slippery. I have to assume the BOSS does have better ergonomics though. But when I cigar hold lights, I don't choke up on the tail end. As a result, the cylinder shape of the beagle works great for me. 

When it comes to a lanyard, I never use one on any light so that is a non issue for me. 

Everyone I've seen on the forums that have both a beagle and a BOSS seem to prefer the BOSS. My theory is that they use their light for midrange distances a fair bit. Is this true in your case? 99% of my EDC flashlight usage is under 10 feet and I don't think the BOSS wins in that contest: at least if the only criteria we are using is beam pattern. But then again, I suppose if you don't like the ergos, you'd rather have an amber tint, and you like a lanyard, having those 3 things versus not would be huge. 

Interested in your thoughts.


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## thenikjones (Feb 12, 2018)

LogicalBeard said:


> I really like the BOSS lights but I just can't make a compelling argument to myself that the beam pattern or tint is better for me.
> Just tried them both outside (Beagle modes 1-3 only as my unit has an issue currently). Considering that the BOSS has no reflector, it has much more of a hot spot than the Beagle ring does. The Beagle is a lovely pattern, and a nicer tint (my BOSS is the XP-L).
> 
> I prefer not have an amber mode. I would rather have the one lumen super floody Hi CRI better; at least I think I do.
> ...



I still think the SPY has the best ergos and control method than either the BOSS or the Beagle.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Feb 13, 2018)

I’m surprised that with the comments about cigar holds, nobody else seems to think that the beagles knurling seems in the perfect spot for making a cigar hold feel very stable.

My only gripe about the Spy’s ergos is that when holding the light at eye level in an overhand position, I have a very difficult time finding a comfortable way to adjust the brightness with the hand holding the light...


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## thenikjones (Feb 13, 2018)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> I’m surprised that with the comments about cigar holds, nobody else seems to think that the beagles knurling seems in the perfect spot for making a cigar hold feel very stable.
> 
> My only gripe about the Spy’s ergos is that when holding the light at eye level in an overhand position, I have a very difficult time finding a comfortable way to adjust the brightness with the hand holding the light...



Trying to think, I don’t think I’ve ever held my SPY in an overhand grip. Is this when holding a handgun too? Not something you commonly do in the UK. 

I like a flared end for a cigar grip. My Surefire E1 Outdoorsman - one of my oldest LED torches - is better for having the tail cap switched from the stock version to one with a noticeable rim (Z68). It helps lock it in place. Shame it is only available in black, it jars with the rest of the torch.


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## archimedes (Feb 13, 2018)

thenikjones said:


> Trying to think, I don’t think I’ve ever held my SPY in an overhand grip....



Interesting, that hadn't really occurred to me either, given its ergonomics in underhand use.



thenikjones said:


> I like a flared end for a cigar grip. My Surefire E1 Outdoorsman - one of my oldest LED torches - is better for having the tail cap switched from the stock version to one with a noticeable rim (Z68). It helps lock it in place. Shame it is only available in black, it jars with the rest of the torch.



How about an RPM E-series tail ?


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## thenikjones (Feb 14, 2018)

archimedes said:


> Interesting, that hadn't really occurred to me either, given its ergonomics in underhand use.
> 
> 
> 
> How about an RPM E-series tail ?



I tried last night and can adjust using ring or little finger but not ideal. As you say, the underhand grip suits the SPY so well that I just always use it that way

Will have a look at RPM, not heard of them before. Thank you.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Feb 14, 2018)

I pretty much use the spy underhand as well. But I notice that casts little shadows on the top of things I'm viewing because the light is coming from an angle lower than my eyes.
Whenever I'm using the Beagle, Haiku, Alpha, 6P, or any other light with a tail clicky, I'm activating using my thumb and holding it at eye level.
I prefer overhand in real world use...


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## archimedes (Feb 14, 2018)

thenikjones said:


> I tried last night and can adjust using ring or little finger but not ideal....



I thought about trying that out, too 



thenikjones said:


> Will have a look at RPM, not heard of them before. Thank you.



He makes these, in a variety of materials and finishes ...







The Aleph McTC would be another option, but those are discontinued and tough to find for a while now ...


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## thenikjones (Feb 14, 2018)

^^^ they look nice, thank you.


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## archimedes (Feb 14, 2018)

thenikjones said:


> ^^^ they look nice, thank you.


Cheers, I hope you can find something that works well for you, in the finish you'd prefer.


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## nbp (Feb 14, 2018)

Dang Don, that little mule is nice! I need to cobble together something like that.


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## archimedes (Feb 14, 2018)

Thanks buddy


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## scout24 (Feb 14, 2018)

At the risk of continuing the off topic chatter, I like the way you think, Arch...  Some more Mule style...


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## archimedes (Feb 14, 2018)

scout24 said:


> At the risk of continuing the off topic chatter, I like the way you think, Arch...  Some more Mule style....



Hahaha, nice !


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## LogicalBeard (Feb 15, 2018)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> I’m surprised that with the comments about cigar holds, nobody else seems to think that the beagles knurling seems in the perfect spot for making a cigar hold feel very stable.
> 
> My only gripe about the Spy’s ergos is that when holding the light at eye level in an overhand position, I have a very difficult time finding a comfortable way to adjust the brightness with the hand holding the light...



Hmmm maybe because I have the heavier copper? Or more likely because my cigar grip isn’t on the tail. I hold it like a cigar but I choke up on the front end so that my index finger rests on the front knurling(right in front of the clip). Likewise, my ring finger rests on the front knurling as well, underneath. In fact, having zero knurling would probably not make any difference for this grip. I’ll have to post a picture when I get home.


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## LogicalBeard (Feb 15, 2018)

thenikjones said:


> I still think the SPY has the best ergos and control method than either the BOSS or the Beagle.



Beagle vs the BOSS-
1.) If the Beagle was in the same form factor as the BOSS; Same weight and dimensions, would you still prefer the BOSS? And why?
2.) So you use your BOSS/Beagle for mid to long distances?


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## InvisibleFrodo (Feb 16, 2018)

LogicalBeard said:


> Hmmm maybe because I have the heavier copper? Or more likely because my cigar grip isn’t on the tail. I hold it like a cigar but I choke up on the front end so that my index finger rests on the front knurling(right in front of the clip). Likewise, my ring finger rests on the front knurling as well, underneath. In fact, having zero knurling would probably not make any difference for this grip. I’ll have to post a picture when I get home.



Mine is copper as well. It's a tank.


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## xdayv (Feb 16, 2018)

IMHO, can't compare the BOSS and the Beagle... they are bit different in my eyes. While I prefer the BOSS, the Beagle has a solid round built, minimalist and has also that retro feel. Both are nice, use both haha.


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## LogicalBeard (Feb 17, 2018)

xdayv said:


> IMHO, can't compare the BOSS and the Beagle... they are bit different in my eyes. While I prefer the BOSS, the Beagle has a solid round built, minimalist and has also that retro feel. Both are nice, use both haha.



In what type of situations do you prefer the BOSS? I think the only time I would prefer the boss is when I would need throw. However, since I don’t need more throw than the Beagle has 99% of the time, I can’t see the appeal for my situation. I have a dedicated thrower for when the occasion arises. Would you prefer the BOSS around the house or for things under 15 feet away?


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## scout24 (Feb 17, 2018)

For me, Beagle indoors where tapping through a mode or two to get where I need to is no big deal. Big, soft flood. No blinding getting up in the middle of the night. BOSS 35 if I'm heading out and can preset a high level up front. Still has nice flood but has nice reach, too. Sometimes both since there's battery commonality and both can run primaries.


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## thenikjones (Feb 23, 2018)

LogicalBeard said:


> Beagle vs the BOSS-
> 1.) If the Beagle was in the same form factor as the BOSS; Same weight and dimensions, would you still prefer the BOSS? And why?
> 2.) So you use your BOSS/Beagle for mid to long distances?



1. For a torch, yes, I would prefer the BOSS. Trying to think of an analogy and best as can think of is my shooting days. In the UK, many members had a .22” semi-auto rifle. EVERYONE else had a Ruger 10/22 as it was a solid choice and there was a huge system of options around it. You could discard everything bar the breech and replace with custom options. Being contrary, I bought a Marlin 7000T. It was what it was, no extras available (well, not in The UK). I loved it. Heavy, but perfect for what I wanted. 

The Beagle is the Marlin. The BOSS is the Ruger. If the Beagle does what you want then it is very good - maybe unique currently. If you want lots of options then the BOSS is the one to go for. 

If I could have borrowed both torches and used for a few weeks then I would have bought the BOSS. Fortunately I can keep both and it is nice to have a smooth flood with the option of adding some throw. 

2. I use my torch for navigating to the toilet during the night, to walking to the car, to night running. Short, medium and long range. For medium/short range the Beagle beam pattern is very nice, maybe perfect. At longer ranges it suffers due to the small reflector - my Haiku certainly out throws it. When it is repaired I will compare it side by side with my BOSS. 

I just received the e-series compatible Oveready head in 219 which is a better comparison I think - it is on a single cell body and will have a better tint match.


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## LogicalBeard (Feb 24, 2018)

scout24 said:


> For me, Beagle indoors where tapping through a mode or two to get where I need to is no big deal. Big, soft flood. No blinding getting up in the middle of the night. BOSS 35 if I'm heading out and can preset a high level up front. Still has nice flood but has nice reach, too. Sometimes both since there's battery commonality and both can run primaries.



How often do you run primaries?


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## LogicalBeard (Mar 3, 2018)

thenikjones said:


> 1. For a torch, yes, I would prefer the BOSS. Trying to think of an analogy and best as can think of is my shooting days. In the UK, many members had a .22” semi-auto rifle. EVERYONE else had a Ruger 10/22 as it was a solid choice and there was a huge system of options around it. You could discard everything bar the breech and replace with custom options. Being contrary, I bought a Marlin 7000T. It was what it was, no extras available (well, not in The UK). I loved it. Heavy, but perfect for what I wanted.
> 
> The Beagle is the Marlin. The BOSS is the Ruger. If the Beagle does what you want then it is very good - maybe unique currently. If you want lots of options then the BOSS is the one to go for.
> 
> ...




Thanks for taking the time to answer; exactly the information I was wondering about. Since I don't have a long range need, the Beagle's beam pattern is perfect for me. If I was running, I would also prefer a beam pattern like the BOSS: I'm guessing my Manker e14 approximates it. I would love some side by side beam pattern shots when you get the 219c.


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## scout24 (Mar 6, 2018)

I'll be off topic for a moment, but to paraphrase Arlo Guthrie, we're going to wait for it to come back around. I had a house fire here on Feb. 23rd, everyone got out safely. We did lose our cat, but she was 15 and had lived a long, spoiled life. The house was a complete loss. I've been going back into what's left of the house to dig for some items that were important to my Wife and I. Slim pickings, to be sure. Today, I found one of my HDS Rotaries, and my Beagle after a bunch of digging. Enrique, as well as Henry, have offered to see if either is salvageable and see what can be done with them to bring them back into service. Huge, huge props to both gentlemen for their kind service. Thank you both... Hogo posted pics for me on the HDS Facebook group of both lights, if anyone's interested. I just have my phone for the time being, and can't play nice with Tinypic. Again, my thanks to both Enrique, and Henry.


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## K2-bk-bl-rd (Mar 6, 2018)

So sorry to hear that man, you will be in my prayers! Hopefully your lights can be repaired. I just received a beagle yesterday, and I'm loving it! Excellent utility light!


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## thenikjones (Mar 10, 2018)

Sorry to hear that Scout, hope Enrique can work his magic on getting the Beagle repaired. Sorry to hear about your cat too


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## djans1397 (Sep 5, 2018)

I know This is an old thread, but I’m contemplating getting a nicely priced beagle but I am up in the air as to whether I should get the boss. From what I’ve seen the beam shot of the beagle is awesome, but I don’t really like the reverse clicky or shorter run times and limited lumens. Can anyone with experience on either of these lights give me some input? I’m assuming the boss has quite a bit more throw.

Thanks so much and advance!


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## archimedes (Sep 5, 2018)

djans1397 said:


> I know This is an old thread, but I’m contemplating getting a nicely priced beagle but I am up in the air as to whether I should get the boss. From what I’ve seen the beam shot of the beagle is awesome, but I don’t really like the reverse clicky or shorter run times and limited lumens. Can anyone with experience on either of these lights give me some input? I’m assuming the boss has quite a bit more throw.
> 
> Thanks so much and advance!



Glad to address any BOSS questions, but I have no experience with the Beagle, sorry.

I, too, do not care for reverse clicky switches. Those are usually a deal-breaker for me.

The BOSS has massive power, but is not anything I would consider using when I specifically wanted or needed "throw"

In terms of output versus runtime, the BOSS is easily and fully programmable. Mine is never set for max possible output, and most of my usual settings cluster in the lower levels (and typically include one secondary color output mode)

Hope that's helpful ....


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## thenikjones (Sep 5, 2018)

I have both, I don’t think the Beagle has significantly higher throw. Get a BOSS on 2 cells and the throw is better than that of the Beagle - I tested that last weekend using a 219 BOSS head. Might be seen as unfair comparison but the ability to have both 35 and 70 bodies quite cheaply is something to be kept in mind. 

The Beagle is unique and certainly worth a try, but having both, I prefer the BOSS.


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## moshow9 (Sep 5, 2018)

I've yet to own a BOSS, but have owned a Beagle and a Minion. The flood ring is nice and unique on the Beagle, but I feel there is much more you can do with BOSS. I vote for the BOSS Dan.


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## djans1397 (Sep 5, 2018)

I’m not a Nichia guy and prefer the XPL actually. I’d actually want an aluminum one for the wt savings and price point. True u can use both the 35 and 70 body, but I’d only prob ever run the 35 for size factor. So does the set up on the 35 throw AS FAR as the Beagle? I do like a combo of both if possible And figured with the high output on the Boss it would make up for any lack of reflector that the beagle has in terms of throw

Any input?

thanks SOOOO MUCH all for the help!


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## archimedes (Sep 5, 2018)

You might be surprised between the 35 and 70 .... Of the two, I actually find the 70 preferable for EDC.


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## Thetasigma (Sep 5, 2018)

An update for me, I no longer own a Boss or Beagle but having owned both I'll throw two cents in. 

The Beagle is throwier than the BOSS, where the BOSS sort of makes of for that, is in much higher drive current which allows it to brute force for a short range, but at the expense of very short battery life and high heat.

Ergonomics, the BOSS feels better in hand, particularly with the 70 body which is actually pretty damn compact for a rear switched 18650 setup, the problem here being that the Beagle is essentially a straight tube, there isn't much aside from the clip for retention in the hand, and while the knurling is nice, it doesn't help as much in grip as I would have liked.

Clip, the BOSS uses OR's SS clip which I absolutely love, and will say it is the single best clip available today, great tension, smooth, slick look on most anything, and cheaper than most any of the other standard offerings. The Beagle clip is well...atrocious at best IMO, stock they are too weak for such a chunky light, sharp-*** edges, and poorly finished, especially the optional Timascus offering that were just roughly milled, bead blasted, and heated for a finish and color selection that looks more like mud than usually colorful Timascus. With an appropriately sized bushing, you can use an OR universal clip for much better retention, but doing anything to your Muyshondt light besides changing the battery, voids the warranty...

Battery selection, they can both strictly speaking handle 18350s, 16340s, and CR123s, though the BOSS requires some programming to achieve that.

UI, BOSS is programmable but is essentially up to 4 modes with an auxiliary color LED option, the Beagle is not programmable but is KISS with a simple 5 mode selection from low to high with the first couple modes being strictly the flood ring.

Warranty, hands down the BOSS is the better light to own in this respect.

Now, don't get me wrong, I love the concept of the Beagle, I just think as it is implemented it is mediocre. A proper dual beam light in the custom area is something that just doesn't exist aside from the long discontinued Lunasol, the problems with the Beagle IMO, are bland/slick host design, poor clip, too small of a center reflector, use of an XP-L2 in the center instead of something throwier and/or with better tint, and a loosely fitted engine, the pill is fitted loosely into the head with some thermal paste, no threading on the production lights. I hope to see a better revision or version of the Beagle concept as it has promise.


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## djans1397 (Sep 6, 2018)

Thanks thetasigma, Arch and all! Glad u mentioned the Timascus clip as the one I’m looking at has that. I’m not one for sharp edges on my clips. As much as I’d like to try the Beagle, I think I’m going to wait on that perfect used aluminum BOSS model after reading through this thread and everyone’s input. 

Thanks again all for the input! That’s why I love this place, great help all around!


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## gunga (Sep 6, 2018)

I was curious about the beagle too. Thanks for the great info guys. I'll pass on this one.


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## thenikjones (Sep 6, 2018)

djans1397 said:


> I’m not a Nichia guy and prefer the XPL actually. I’d actually want an aluminum one for the wt savings and price point. True u can use both the 35 and 70 body, but I’d only prob ever run the 35 for size factor. So does the set up on the 35 throw AS FAR as the Beagle? I do like a combo of both if possible And figured with the high output on the Boss it would make up for any lack of reflector that the beagle has in terms of throw
> 
> Any input?
> 
> thanks SOOOO MUCH all for the help!



My BOSS is XPl HI and pretty warm, prefer it to my XML2 SPY007 tint 

I was on a sea wall at 10:30pm last week doing my annual torch test. I had the following

1. SPY 007
2. 219 e-series version of the BOSS head
3. Beagle
- did not have my actual BOSS with me. 

The SPY showed the furthest rocks, followed by the e-BOSS on 2 cells. The e-BOSS on 1 cell and Beagle had similar throw - there were rocks the Beagle just did not reach out to. The Beagle is a single cell, to be fair, but it is bulky. 

The Beagle is a great torch for working around the house but doesn’t last me an hour on throw settings which the SPY has. I tried it on night runs multiple times and the BOSS 70 lasted longer. 

Just my experiences, YMMV etc etc


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## LogicalBeard (Sep 7, 2018)

I have never owned a BOSS but three things you said would make me recommend a BOSS to you:

1.) The weight and form factor. I'm assuming this is going to be your EDC and the lighter weight would probably make a noticeable difference. I think an aluminum BOSS is half the weight of a Beagle.

2.) The Beagle is a reverse clicky and you don't like those. 

3.) You don't like Nichia's. 


Reasons I like the Beagle better: Theoretically, since I have never gotten to try out a BOSS.

1.) 5 modes vs 3 modes with a secondary mode. I'm not big on a low red/amber mode so it would make the BOSS a 3 mode light for me. I know some people prefer less modes but I have no problem getting to my preferred mode for the task at hand in under a second. I actually prefer the 7 mode setup on my Manker E14. 

2.) I prefer Nichia emitters. The Beagle's flood mode is amazing. I click the button and this wash of warm high CRI magic envelops my surroundings. The beam pattern has more flood than a traditional mule and I can still use mode 4 and 5 when I need to see farther. This accomplishes 99% of my tasks. 

Side notes: 

Testing runtime on mode 4 got me into 2 hours before it fell out of regulation with a 700 mAh battery. I now use protected Keeppower 1200 mAh batteries for even longer runtimes. 

I have zero problem with the ergonomics. 

My only issue with the clip is that it is rough on my pants. Mine doesn't poke me or cause me any other problems. 

If you haven't already, you should join the "Control the Dark" Facebook group.


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## archimedes (Sep 7, 2018)

Just a couple additional comments regarding the BOSS ....

Modes are fully programmable, up to 4 modes total, in each of two banks (4 + 4) , as well as an optional "bounce" mode. If you want less than 4, or none of them to include red / amber (except for bounce) , that is easy to set up.

Emitter options have varied among the "waves" of light engines, but have usually included both Cree and Nichia as choices.


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## LogicalBeard (Sep 7, 2018)

"If you want less than 4, or none of them to include red / amber (except for bounce) , that is easy to set up." 

Nice to know. I thought you had to use the secondary as one of the levels. Has it always been like that? 

How do you switch between the "banks"?


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## archimedes (Sep 7, 2018)

LogicalBeard said:


> .... Nice to know. I thought you had to use the secondary as one of the levels. Has it always been like that?



No, all levels are fully selectable. Yes, I believe that has been the case, at least since the start of the web/optical programming system was first available.



LogicalBeard said:


> How do you switch between the "banks"?



Each bank is selected automatically, based on voltage detected (one cell vs two cells)


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## scout24 (Sep 7, 2018)

It's amazingly versatile. Want red, and three other sub- 25lm modes on a single RCR cell? With one and only flamethrower mode on two RCR's? DONE!


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## djans1397 (Sep 8, 2018)

Awesome info guys! So appreciated. I’d love to get them both, but have decided to wait on the next drop and get an aluminum combo in XPL, if itsoffered. Now to decide on amber vs red secondary.


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## scout24 (Sep 9, 2018)

I'm deleting your post as heresay and a violation of Rule 4. And stirring up controversy just for the heck of it. Enough, please.


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## fyrstormer (Nov 13, 2018)

Ugh. I wish I'd read this thread before buying my Beagle. Such a great concept, ruined by having no mode-memory and having a reverse-clicky switch. The clip doesn't bother me, I could round-off the edges myself using a whetstone and a sanding sponge, but there's nothing I can do about the deficiencies in the driver.

Sure, the original Aeon and Nautilus didn't have mode-memory, but they also didn't require repetitive motion to select the desired brightness setting -- just tighten the head and stop when you reach the brightness you want. There is no clicky-switch equivalent for the progressive-twist UI, and Muyshondt should've known that. At the very least, for $600 I would expect UI settings to be somewhat customizable. Even McGizmo, king of the "simple and durable" titanium flashlight, offers user-programmable drivers nowadays.

Also, it surprises me how difficult it is to go back to a reverse-clicky switch after spending several years using forward-clicky switches exclusively. I keep unlatching the switch when attempting to change modes, and relatching the switch requires releasing it completely and turning off the light. If I accidentally unlatch a forward-clicky, I can just relatch it without having to turn off the light.

I'll have to return it. $600 is too much money to spend on something that doesn't work exactly the way I expect.


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 13, 2018)

While I prefer the no mode memory and the reverse clicky, I'm with you on the programing. 

If I understand his position correctly, he thinks a user shouldn't have to worry about programing the levels. But this doesn't make sense to me because if they don't want to mess with them, they would't have to; just like on a BOSS. But maybe I am missing something. :shrug:


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## fyrstormer (Nov 14, 2018)

I wasn't even thinking about programming the brightness of each level. Given the complexity of having multiple emitters running at multiple brightnesses simultaneously, I wouldn't even want to try programming the brightness settings anyway -- at least not using blinky-codes. A bluetooth wireless interface would be an effective, though unforgivably geeky, way of allowing advanced configuration without needing a USB port built into the driver, but again, I wasn't thinking of anything that complex. I was only thinking of basic user preferences, like enabling or disabling mode-memory. It might also be nice to include a forward-clicky switch in the box, or offer it as an optional accessory. After all, switch type and mode-memory are both hotly-contested design choices among flashaholics.

And let's be honest here, _the market for the Beagle is flashaholics._ It doesn't matter if Muyshondt is trying to design fancy flashlights for the average person, because the average person is not going to spend $600 on a damn flashlight when they could buy a really good smartphone with a flashlight app for the same amount of money. (or, you know, pay their rent for the month.) The market Muyshondt is targeting doesn't exist, but the flashaholic market does exist, and his design choices should reflect that. He can't be the Apple of flashlights, because Apple has already claimed the $600-easy-to-use-premium-flashlight market niche -- it's called the iPhone.

(this post was not sponsored or endorsed by Apple, Inc., and the poster received no compensation for it.)


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## LogicalBeard (Nov 14, 2018)

I suppose at the end of day, he doesn't feel like there is a sufficient need to justify the hassle of adding in the option to program mode memory, turbo mode, or providing a forward clicky to switch out the tail cap like one of my foursevens lights did. Maybe he thinks just giving people the option to change these things confuses people and takes away the elegance of the product. But I like options and there is always something I could tweak to make it perfect for me; I'm sure you are the same way.


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## fyrstormer (Nov 14, 2018)

I used to be less persnickety about my tools than I am now. The more I use them, the more I understand what makes them work really well for me. Anyone who's reached the level of proficiency at operating a flashlight that they can justify spending $600 on one is probably going to have a pretty good idea of how it should be set-up to work just-right for them. It's the same reason all the various "easy to use" versions of Linux keep dying off -- anyone who's proficient enough at operating a computer that they would actually consider running Linux on a daily basis is not going to need, or want, a simplified version of Linux. It's a corollary to the Dunning-Kruger Effect (i.e. people lacking competence are also incapable of judging other people's competence): People who don't know what they want also don't know what they could have, while people who do know what they want also know what they could have _and they want it_.


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## GoVegan (Nov 14, 2018)

I find it very surprising how anyone could order a 600 dollar flashlight without first confirming if the UI is what they want.

FWIW I hate memory modes, as I'd never remember what mode I last used, or It would be the wrong mode next time I went to use the light.

BTW re Linux, Debian user here.


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## fyrstormer (Nov 14, 2018)

It _is_ surprising, isn't it? Silly me, I made the mistake of trusting my satisfaction with the Muyshondt lights I've bought in the past, and I didn't notice what the product page _neglected_ to mention. It never occurred to me to ask, because I can't think of another high-end boutique flashlight I've bought that _didn't_ have mode-memory. (well...I guess there was a LuxRC Triple drop-in that I used to have, but I sold it years ago when the newer version with mode-memory was released.)

Having the wrong setting saved in my light generally doesn't bother me. I usually EDC a light with a rotary dial, so I can see (or feel) what position it's in before I turn it on. For multi-click lights like the Beagle, if I'm somewhere dark and I need to protect my vision, I always turn-on the light against my hand first. That isn't an inconvenience, because I used to do the same thing with lights that didn't have mode-memory. Sometimes it's so dark that even the dimmest setting on a cheap light will be too bright, and I'll need to dim it down by shrouding the beam with my hand. So I already have the habit in-place to avoid blinding myself if my light turns-on too bright. When blinding myself isn't an issue, I want the light to turn-on at the same setting I was using a few seconds before. When I look away from whatever I'm illuminating, even if only for a couple seconds, I shut the light off by habit, because letting _any_ power tool continue to run when you're not looking at where it's aimed is a Very Bad Idea. Having to re-cycle through the modes to get back to the one I was using before is irritating as hell.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Nov 14, 2018)

How do you like the beams fyrstormer? 

I love my beagle. It is unlike any light in my collection, which is what I try to do these days when I buy a new light. Find something different.
I am also not a huge fan of a reverse clicky, but for the beagle I am used to it. Light press when on changes level. I wish I could put a different clip on it though. Not a fan of the clip, but it does look cool I must say.


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## fyrstormer (Nov 14, 2018)

The beam is fantastic. It's what the Lunasol could've been if McGizmo had more resources for designing and building his flashlights. That just makes my dissatisfaction with the UI all the more bitter, because I'll have to return one of the nicest pocket flashlights I've ever seen.


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## scout24 (Nov 14, 2018)

I wonder if the ten year difference in release times may also have something to do with the differences in those two platforms? The available tech, and emitters, weren't where they are today. I think beam wise the LS-27 is closer to the Beagle than the LS-20. Agreed, the UI and switch on the Beagle are not my preferred, but it has a useful place in my collection.


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## fyrstormer (Nov 15, 2018)

I have a LS27 and I absolutely agree it is dated in several ways compared to the Beagle. It would be crazy to argue otherwise. Rather, I meant that the Beagle essentially represents what the Lunasol series could've become had it continued to be produced and refined rather than having been discontinued in 2009. Now I wish _even more _that it hadn't been discontinued in 2009, because the Beagle proves the flood+spot combo is still a great idea. My sole complaints are regarding the electrical properties of the shiny little button on the tailcap, and the method by which it interacts with the driver circuit. Everything else about the Beagle is pretty much perfect, though the casing is a _teensy bit_ too overbuilt, but I could overlook that pretty easily if the UI didn't drive me nuts.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Nov 15, 2018)

Perhaps the Beagle Mk II will be programmable with a new clip and forward clicky LOL.


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## fyrstormer (Nov 15, 2018)

Not likely. Enrique Muyshondt builds things the way he thinks they should be and everyone else can take it or leave it. There's something to be said for trusting your instincts and expertise, but only in moderation. I work as a software engineering consultant, and if I completely disregarded my clients' design requests and delivered the very-expensive custom-built software _I think_ they should want, I'd be fired pretty much instantly. It is my job to use my expertise to meet as many of my clients' needs as possible, the best way I can. If I want to fulfill my own dreams, I can do that during my off-hours.

- - -

The Beagle was sent back today. They're going to charge me 10%, or $60, as a restocking fee to pay for the hard physical labor of opening the box, examining the light for scratches, and then mailing it out to the next customer. (whoever ends up getting it, don't worry, it's in 100% new condition. I even wiped-off my fingerprints before putting it back in the box.) The customer service representative at Muyshondt Enterprises, Inc. is "unable" (i.e. unwilling) to make any exceptions to the restocking fee, even though I clearly stated the only reason I was returning it is because their website hadn't given me all the information I needed to make an informed purchase in the first place. Yes, I should've assumed that even a prestigious boutique manufacturer wasn't fully representing the specs of their products, and I should've gone looking for more information first, so responsibility for my purchasing decision ultimately falls on me, but this will be the last time I buy something from Muyshondt nonetheless. It's not just because of this single incident, it's also because of his supercilious attitude. In that respect, he actually reminds me a lot of Peter Gransee in the waning days of his leadership at Arc Flashlight, LLC.

By contrast, my new McGizmo Makai has a bezel with a minor defect that is essentially purely a cosmetic flaw, something which McGizmo does not explicitly warranty, but he is mailing me a replacement bezel _and offering to pay the return shipping_ for the bezel I already have. Now _that_ is $600-flashlight-grade customer service. (and no, I'm not trying to provoke competitive urination between McGizmo and Muyshondt fanboys, I'm just conveying an anecdote about a concurrent experience with a different brand. if you want to fight about brand loyalty with each other, do it via PMs, not in replies to this post.)

Oh well, at least I have two Aeon Mk.2's. Those are awesome little lights. I hope they last forever.


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## nbp (Nov 15, 2018)

Seems to me that before dropping $600 on this light, you should have fired off a quick email to the maker or posted on the Flashlight forum you’ve been a member of for nine years to see what kind of switch and UI it utilized. Btw, in post 14 of this thread, from 1.5 years ago, the switch was revealed to be reverse clicky, and a discussion of UI followed shortly thereafter. I realize this research would have deprived us all of a good fyrstormer rant, so thankfully you didn’t take the time, but as you are a seasoned flashaholic who has owned many high end lights the onus is really on you to know what you’re buying.


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## fyrstormer (Nov 15, 2018)

Someone has already pointed that out, and I agreed with them.

As I have already acknowledged multiple times: Yes, I should've done more research first. I made the mistake of trusting my experience with Muyshondt lights I've bought in the past, every single one of which I was happy with. I am 100% guilty of allowing myself to believe that past results would indicate future results. Also, I hadn't been on CPF more than a couple times a year for the past 5 years or so; I'd been focusing on different hobbies during that time, and it was no longer my habit to double-check manufacturer specs and user reviews for flashlights. Out of the blue I remembered the name Muyshondt, so I went to their website and saw a cool-looking new light. I bought it because I didn't see anything objectionable in the product description, and because I'm out-of-practice I failed to notice there were important things that hadn't been mentioned at all. Mistakes happen from time to time. It would've been nice if Muyshondt had at least been a little more forgiving, and I absolutely would've said nice things about them if they had done so. But instead I'm out $80 between the cost of two-way shipping and a "restocking fee" which is indisputably punitive and deterrent in nature, and in no way reflects the actual cost of restocking. Some people perhaps think I deserve that $80 penalty for my momentary carelessness; obviously I have slightly different expectations regarding the extent of personal responsibility in civilized society than they do, and there is no way to reconcile that difference of belief.

Anyway, I'm done in this thread. Talk amongst yourselves.


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## usdiver (Nov 16, 2018)

fyrstormer said:


> Ugh. I wish I'd read this thread before buying my Beagle. Such a great concept, ruined by having no mode-memory and having a reverse-clicky switch. The clip doesn't bother me, I could round-off the edges myself using a whetstone and a sanding sponge, but there's nothing I can do about the deficiencies in the driver.
> 
> Sure, the original Aeon and Nautilus didn't have mode-memory, but they also didn't require repetitive motion to select the desired brightness setting -- just tighten the head and stop when you reach the brightness you want. There is no clicky-switch equivalent for the progressive-twist UI, and Muyshondt should've known that. At the very least, for $600 I would expect UI settings to be somewhat customizable. Even McGizmo, king of the "simple and durable" titanium flashlight, offers user-programmable drivers nowadays.
> 
> ...



I too WAS a fan of Muyshondt starting off with the Aeon (wish I could still get one in titanium) bought the Aeon 2 too flood, got the Flieger proto AND the production brushed titanium, had huge hassle from Muyshondt to get batteries (I’m international but have a US address also) then saw the Beagle and though the outer ring looked cool, specs and runtime didn’t trip my trigger. Then sold the proto for about half of what I paid for it second hand, figured the built in memory function for a Clicky of this nature isn’t as useful as the start from 1 click to get 5...I prefer rotary lights but in this case wound up keeping the titanium (Just for the cool factor and the beautiful beam it provides) and ok with it not having memory BUT a light of this caliber and price SHOULD have a programming option. 
The whole experience with the “exclusiveness” and arrogance attached to Muyshondt enterprises, plus the emails which basically say WE are the maker, YOU are just the customer as if i m small and insignificant has made me not even want to try the Beagle nor anything else from the company. 
I have 2 favorites but due to fear of getting into trouble by distracting or veering off this thread I ll keep quiet.
Good luck to those who love the Beagle but at this point even if it what I wanted how I wanted, the above facts would prevent me from spending my money there and I d go somewhere else. There are many other very pleasant people to deal with who will give you what you want AND appreciate your business.


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## desert.snake (Jan 5, 2019)

I will not say that my eyesight is very sharp, it is not sharp, but the reverse button looks 1 in 1 with a Convoy or Eagtac button, the only difference is that on the rotary ring, which it presses, there is the name of the manufacturer. Button like https://www.aliexpress.com/item/lighted-switch-for-convoy-flashlight/32843122324.html

Those who have already lost the warranty in 1 year, can unscrew and show us what is inside the button?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lAfK7PepMo

Here they were replaced on forward clicky
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/61860


Only problem is that it is small and must be looked for. I had a Eagtac d25a ti, its reverse button broke 2-3 hours after receiving, I was sent a new button and she came to me after 2 or 3 months. At this time I was trying to find a replacement for a button with a forward click and soldered. I did not find a direct equivalent in size, the one I found required the trimming of the pusher, but it was too sensitive. I received a factory part, installed and presented a flashlight to my friend. For several years now he has been using it without problems.


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## Subfanatic (Apr 7, 2019)

Hi everyone, I just ordered a Beagle Mk I Turned Ti. I’ve sold pretty much everything else and my fingers are crossed I will love this one.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Apr 7, 2019)

fyrstormer said:


> Not likely. Enrique Muyshondt builds things the way he thinks they should be and everyone else can take it or leave it. There's something to be said for trusting your instincts and expertise, but only in moderation. I work as a software engineering consultant, and if I completely disregarded my clients' design requests and delivered the very-expensive custom-built software _I think_ they should want, I'd be fired pretty much instantly. It is my job to use my expertise to meet as many of my clients' needs as possible, the best way I can. If I want to fulfill my own dreams, I can do that during my off-hours.
> 
> - - -
> 
> ...



I gotta chime in here with my experience. I purchased a Beagle in polished copper. When it arrived, there were some pretty major machining flaws on the pocket clip. One side was rounded, and not even flat as it should be, and several of the chamfers were missing, or would taper off from one end of the pocket clip to the other meaning they were basically “half there”. And the tumbled finish step was skipped completely, as the machining marks are present like the prototype lights in the early photos of the Beagle.
I contacted Muyshondt and sent pictures. They offered to send me a new pocket clip provided I would send back the original. Okay, good deal.
When the replacement pocket clip arrived, I immediately noticed a big chunk missing from the end of the clip. It literally looked like a chipped tooth. And the chamfers? Present on one side, and missing on the other.
Now I had 2 pocket clips in a row that should have never passed QC. The second ones defects were even more obvious than the first.
So I contacted Muyshondt again. I sent detailed pictures again. I got a response saying they no longer send out replacement parts, and now it is my responsibility to pay for shipping and insurance to ship the entire light back to Muyshondt for inspection and repair. Of course in my mind I’m imagining the possibility that they will either send the light back saying nothing is wrong, or replace the pocket clip with another one that has clear machining defects, and then what? Pay to send the light back again?
I already paid to have the light shipped to me. Now I have to pay to ship it back. So I’m looking at almost $40 in shipping costs alone just to get a light that doesn’t have manufacturing defects.
Some sick part of me still wants an Aeon MK. III, and part of me is worried I’ll have a similar experience. I want to ask Muyshondt if they would give me a store credit for all the hassle, but I’m kinda guessing they will tell me to sit and spin...


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## staticx57 (Apr 7, 2019)

Id be asking for a full refund as you are yet to recieve what you paid for. Or I'd be contacting my credit card company if they don't refund in full.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Apr 7, 2019)

Between the back and fourth E-mails, the replacement coming in, more E-mails which Muyshondt never responded to, and then having to resend the E-mails, and now my current hesitation to send the light in for fear I will either get it back with a pocket clip that is even worse, or no replacement at all, or Muyshondt saying they want me to pay for something else, my warranty period is now technically expired.


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## alphaBRAVO (May 25, 2019)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> Okay, let's make this really easy. The cutoff of regulation being set at 2.7 is violating the manufacturer warning. 2.7 is less than 2.75. It doesn't matter much anyways. Those cells should not be discharged down that low. If you bring them down that low, you will greatly reduce cell cycle life. You should probably be recharging the cells before the voltage gets below 3.5 or 3.4 volts. I recharge at 3.8 or 3.7 volts. The cells have no memory. Recharge more often whenever possible and your cells will last much longer and provide better output.



I recognize this post is ancient, but could someone kindly point me to a battery primer on what all this means, e.g., what terms of art like “protected,” and “regulated” mean, best practices, the best way to verify voltage, consequences of improper use (compromises life of cell?, will ruin torch?, fire
risk?). 

Thanks so much.


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## alphaBRAVO (May 25, 2019)

LogicalBeard said:


> My perfect solution was getting a KeepPower 1200mAh protected battery. When I messed around with a CR123 battery to check it out, I found I didn't have any rattle or issue and didn't need the tube.



Sorry, novice here. What precisely is this a solution to, and given the age on your post has your solution held up, which is to say, you still going this route or another?

Thanks!


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## lion504 (May 25, 2019)

alphaBRAVO said:


> I recognize this post is ancient, but could someone kindly point me to a battery primer on what all this means, e.g., what terms of art like “protected,” and “regulated” mean, best practices, the best way to verify voltage, consequences of improper use (compromises life of cell?, will ruin torch?, fire
> risk?).
> 
> Thanks so much.



Here's a good starting point. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...1-General-Li-ion-safety&p=3826472#post3826472


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## lion504 (May 25, 2019)

alphaBRAVO said:


> I recognize this post is ancient, but could someone kindly point me to a battery primer on what all this means, e.g., what terms of art like “protected,” and “regulated” mean, best practices, the best way to verify voltage, consequences of improper use (compromises life of cell?, will ruin torch?, fire
> risk?).
> 
> Thanks so much.



Also, several very good stickies at the top of the Flashlight Electronics subforum here. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?9-Flashlight-Electronics-Batteries-Included

You probably want to check out
-  Simple guide to using a DMM for measurements
- Using Li-ion cells in LED flashlights safely


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## lion504 (May 25, 2019)

alphaBRAVO said:


> Sorry, novice here. What precisely is this a solution too, and given the age on your post has your solution held up, which is to say, you still going this route or another?
> 
> thanks!



I didn't look at the post you quoted, but here's what I think logicalbeard meant:

Some newer single-cell lights (like the Beagle) have a wider bore diameter to accomodate larger, higher capacity li-ion rechargeables. The beagle will take either a 16340 or a 18350. Both run at 4.2v (when fully charged), but are different dimensions and mah capacity. The 16340 is 16mm in diameter and 34mm long, usually about 700 mah capacity. The 18350 is 18mm in diameter and 35mm long, and the bigger size allows a capacity closer to 1200 mah. 

NOTE: CR123 primaries (single use, non-rechargeable) are the same size as a 16340 but with 3v lithium chemistry. They have a capacity more similar to an 18350 (1200-1400 mah). The Beagle will accept CR123s, or 16340s, or 18350s. 

In the body/battery tube of lghts like the Beagle, the difference in battery length (1mm) is negligible because of the spring contacts - they just compress a little more to accomodate the longer battery. 

But the diameter of the battery tube must obviously be rigid/fixed. Some older lights like the HDS Executive or Rotary only accept 16mm cells, precluding the use of 18350s and the longer runtime. But the Beagle's diameter is purposefully wider to provide the user the option to use either 16mm or 18mm cells. But if the user then inserts a 16340s or CR123 (16mm diameter) into the larger diameter battery tube, then sometimes the smaller battery will rattle around inside the 18mm compartment (this is the "problem" he was solving). To prevent this rattle, some manufacturers will include a 2mm battery "sleeve" into which the battery is inserted to make a tight fit and prevent rattle. Sounds like Muyshondt includes this sleeve with the Beagle for tight fitment.

Finally, many 18350 or 18650 lights actually have a inside diameter of closer to 19mm, because battery manufacturers don't exactly adhere to the standard (their batteries are chubby as they compete with their competitors to eke out a few more mah) and flashlight vendors want to make sure these chubbier non-spec batteries will work to keep the customer happy. So even true 18mm cells will rattle inside many a flashlight body (i.e. Convoy S2+, BOSS 70, HDS 18650 tube, etc). My solution is to wrap some blue painters tape around the battery as a DIY sleeve to make up the differnence.

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me will chime in if I got any wires crossed. Hope this helps.


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## alphaBRAVO (May 28, 2019)

lion504 said:


> Here's a good starting point.





lion504 said:


> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...1-General-Li-ion-safety&p=3826472#post3826472



Thanks so much.


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## alphaBRAVO (May 28, 2019)

lion504 said:


> Also, several very good stickies at the top of the Flashlight Electronics subforum here. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?9-Flashlight-Electronics-Batteries-Included
> 
> You probably want to check out
> -  Simple guide to using a DMM for measurements
> - Using Li-ion cells in LED flashlights safely



Really appreciate it. Thank you.


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## alphaBRAVO (May 28, 2019)

lion504 said:


> I didn't look at the post you quoted, but here's what I think logicalbeard meant:
> 
> Some newer single-cell lights (like the Beagle) have a wider bore diameter to accomodate larger, higher capacity li-ion rechargeables. The beagle will take either a 16340 or a 18350. Both run at 4.2v (when fully charged), but are different dimensions and mah capacity. The 16340 is 16mm in diameter and 34mm long, usually about 700 mah capacity. The 18350 is 18mm in diameter and 35mm long, and the bigger size allows a capacity closer to 1200 mah.
> 
> ...



Wow. Thanks for your time in crafting this detailed explainer. You've even managed to supply enough info to address questions I didn't yet know I had, but surely would have asked down the line.

So for a Beagle: Until I'm better versed on safety and best practices, might this be fairly idiot-proof?

1. A protected 18350 like the KeepPower 1200mAh 18350 P1835C2 protected li-ion rechargeable battery (http://www.keeppower.com.cn/products_detail.php?id=566) together with 

2. Xtar Dragon VP4 Plus Li-ion/NiMH/11.1V 3S Charger and Battery Analyzer (https://www.illumn.com/xtar-dragon-vp4-plus-li-ion-nimh-11-1v-3s-charger-and-battery-analyzer.html)

Am I correct that this protected battery will shut off to protect itself and the torch when voltage drops below critical levels? 
Will this charger (and most other reputable, well-made chargers) have circuitry to shut of charging once batteries have reached capacity?

Finally, for non-protected cells, like Muyshondt's 18350 (https://shop.muyshondt.net/products/18350-power-cell) how do users stay safe? From experience does one observe a visible drop-off in beam intensity? Do users typically keep batteries topped up and just have a "feel" based on time used or other factors? Certainly doesn't seem practical to pop batteries out of one's torch all the time to test voltage.

With great thanks again for your reply and help!


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## jon_slider (May 28, 2019)

alphaBRAVO said:


> for non-protected cells, like Muyshondt's 18350



sent you a PM with more info


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## lion504 (May 28, 2019)

alphaBRAVO said:


> So for a Beagle: Until I'm better versed on safety and best practices, might this be fairly idiot-proof?
> 
> 1. A protected 18350 like the KeepPower 1200mAh 18350 P1835C2 protected li-ion rechargeable battery (http://www.keeppower.com.cn/products_detail.php?id=566) together with
> 
> ...



I had a lot of these same questions!

Ref the charger: the VP4 Dragon is a good charger according to HKJ. His review here: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...3-Test-review-of-Charger-Xtar-VP4-Plus-Dragon. I have the VC4 and like it a lot. Yes, the charger will stop charging the battery when voltage reaches the max of 4.2. The bay indicate light will turn green and display "FULL" on the display at this point. I don't hover over the charger, but check periodically when I'm using it. As soon as I see it's full/green, I take it out. Sometimes that's not until the next AM if I'm charging at night.

My rule of thumb is to use unprotected batteries with lights that provide low voltage protection (i.e. PFlexPro or Oveready).

I insist on using protected (or primary) batteries in lights without low voltage protection (like my Surefire Z2 with Malkoff M61). I don't have a Beagle, but my understanding is that it doesn't provide low voltage protection. So I think you're smart to use the protected cell. There's some good discussion earlier in this thread where @scout24 and @archimedes weigh in on this (starting around post 64).

But my understanding is that relying on either form of battery protection is more of disaster avoidance, and not a good practice. Many of the more experienced flashaholics seem to recommend recharging when no-load voltage drops to like 3.5v. How to avoid reaching this level or know when you have? Here's what I've been able to figure out:
(1) recharge really often just to be safe 
(2) pull the cell out of the light and test it on a DMM (not the most convenient)
(3) a lot of experience using and testing the cell which gets you to the point that you just kinda know it's low (not the most precise, and not practical for newbs like us)
(4) realizing when the cell drops out of regulation and output starts to dim (but this will probably be a lower discharge than the 3.5v ideal though, and thus not the best option)
(5) and finally, my preferred - using the voltage check feature provided by some drivers to tell you the voltage without load (again, Oveready and PFlexPro provide this feature - for example, 8 half presses gets you 1 blink for every .12 volts above 3 with Randy's AP driver; similarly, OR has the 111 PIN for batt check) - but unfortunately I don’t think this is a feature of the Beagle.

Hopefully you'll get some more detailed comments..


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## lion504 (May 28, 2019)

Here is some useful info from Jason's website at darksucks.com:
https://darksucks.com/collections/battery-chargers/products/xtar-vc4-multi-charger

*>> BATTERY CARE:*
In my personal use, I will put the battery on the charger if I've used it for more than 10-20 minutes. At this level of shallow discharge the battery will top up in 40-80 minutes. 
DO NOT leave the battery in the charger for an extended period of time. Overnight is fine. The MC1 has a safety feature to prevent over-charge, but best practice dictates that you should remove the battery when the charge cycle is complete.
The Xtar VC4 has a "charge checking" feature that will periodically check the battery voltage if it's left in the cradle. When the voltage drops below 4.0V the charger will proceed to fill the battery back up to 4.2V. The VC4 will not begin a charge if the battery is above 4.0V.
If you put a battery on the charger and the LED stays green, this means your battery is above 4.0V and ready for use.
Please note, deeply discharging a li-ion battery also reduces its life span.
Unlike other chemistries, li-ion has no "memory effect" so you can charge it any time without loosing capacity. In other words, it's best for battery health to recharge frequently rather than waiting till the battery is "dead."


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## alphaBRAVO (Jun 4, 2019)

Thanks so much for your thoughts and insight. This is tremendously useful information. I've been working my way through your suggested reading, but wanted to say thank you in the meanwhile.



lion504 said:


> I had a lot of these same questions!
> 
> Ref the charger: the VP4 Dragon is a good charger according to HKJ. His review here: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...3-Test-review-of-Charger-Xtar-VP4-Plus-Dragon. I have the VC4 and like it a lot. Yes, the charger will stop charging the battery when voltage reaches the max of 4.2. The bay indicate light will turn green and display "FULL" on the display at this point. I don't hover over the charger, but check periodically when I'm using it. As soon as I see it's full/green, I take it out. Sometimes that's not until the next AM if I'm charging at night.
> 
> ...


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## alphaBRAVO (Jun 4, 2019)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> So I was out visiting my dad tonight when I looked inside my pocket, and the Beagle was on. But something was strange. The light was flickering. So the battery came out, and I checked the voltage. 2.05 volts. I never discharge below 3.7 or 3.6 volts. This is upsetting. This is the3rd time this light has come on in my pocket. And with no way to lock out the light, this is a problem I can’t avoid. Now I might have ruined the battery, and it’s not like it was from negligence. I’ll be charging at 100 mah starting when I get home in about 10 minutes. Even if everything works out now I’ll be wondering if or
> how badly I’ve damaged the cell and or shortened its life expectancy.
> 
> For you guys to know, the light did not cut off at 2.5 volts. It didn’t cut off.



What do you use to charge at 100 mah? I'm assuming that's safer and better for the battery? Given I'm still learning, were my Beagle to discharge that low because it accidentally turned on, I'd toss it. My charger uses optional 0.5A/1.0A/2.0A charge currents, and I've been using 0.5A.


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## alphaBRAVO (Jun 4, 2019)

scout24 said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. You've got 10 or 11 posts on this page alone, and have received comments back from several members. If your light dims, take the cell out and recharge it. Or run primaries if you're that concerned or run protected cells. ...





jon_slider said:


> correct, the Beagle has no built in overdischarge protection, and the Muyshondt 183501 IMR has no protection circuit.
> It would we safer to *use a protected battery*....




You both suggest primary CR123As are a safe(r) alternative to non protected 18350s. With that in mind, I bought a handful of them both as a long-term storage/emergency option as well as for travel without worry of dealing with chargers. Then I found this terrifying thread:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?340028-Flashlight-Explosion

Might protected 18350s be safer than CR123A disposables? You both believe CR123As are safer than (unprotected) IMR/INR/NMC/LiNiMnCoO2 cells?


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## lion504 (Jun 5, 2019)

Single CR123s are considered safer because they are designed to be used (safely) until completely empty. No need for a protection circuit, because it will never be recharged. Contrast this with rechargeables, where the user has to (somehow) monitor voltage to avoid overdischarge, because the cell WILL be recharged/used again. 

HOWEVER... the thread you linked to describes the danger of using multiple primaries in series, where the voltages/capacities are mismatched. In this situation, when batteries are in series and one battery drains before another due to different capacities, energy is still being forced through the dead battery. The result is that the dead battery experiences a reverse charge. My understanding is this is similar to putting a primary CR123 in a battery charger. The likely/worst case result in both cases would be venting with flame, which I believe is what happened to @JNieporte.

Personally, I never use multiple cells in a light if it can be avoided. For example, I always use a single cell (18650 or 16650) in my BOSS 70, 6p, Z2, S2+, etc, even if the driver supports > 4.2V.

If you do use multiple cells in series, most recommend to use same brand, purchased at same time, charged to same voltage, etc. In other words, always keep/use as a matched pair.

But the good news is that your Beagle is single cell only, so you can confidently use a solitary 123, knowing it is safer than the Li-ion (16340 or 18350) alternative.


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## alphaBRAVO (Jun 6, 2019)

So helpful. Thanks!



lion504 said:


> Single CR123s are considered safer because they are designed to be used (safely) until completely empty....


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## archimedes (Jun 6, 2019)

alphaBRAVO said:


> So helpful....



Hi and welcome to CPF @alphaBRAVO ....

During a discussion thread, there is no need to "requote" sizable prior posts in their entirety, especially if the original is just a few posts away.

This makes threads very difficult to read, especially on mobile devices.

If it is obvious from context to what you refer, no quotation is needed. If it might not be clear, a brief quote is fine, but please limit it to a small partial "clipping" instead.

I have provided an example, above 

Thanks for understanding, and cheers.


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## alphaBRAVO (Jun 7, 2019)

Thanks for the warm welcome. And thanks to everyone for their patience, insight, and humor.


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