# Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries? (for lights and more)



## Poppy

Let's say there is an extended power outage 5-7 days, and you are a family of four. Two adults, and two children ages 5 and 10.
Let's say that you can recharge your batteries each day, (either using your car's battery and alternator for power, or by driving to a location that still has power). OR if you use alkalines, how many will you need for a week?

Please consider, 
Which rooms, and how many rooms would you like to have light;

How many lumens, you would like in each room;
would there be enough light to read or play a board game without a supplemental headlamp?

What kinds of, and how many batteries would you need to be able to supply sufficient energy for five hours each night.

Additionally would each person also have a light? If so why? To use intermittently, to go to the bathroom? or to supplement a relatively low level of light (perhaps use a headlamp for reading) What would be their power needs?

How many alkalines would you need?

How many batteries would you have to charge each day?
Eneloops AAAs, AAs,
18650's
others?
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EDIT
As I write this, the thread is at post 95.
Overall, I'd say we did a nice job presenting what many people would be comfortable with. For the most part, we stayed away from particular lights, and spoke in generalities. That was my hope... I didn't want it to be another SHTF zombie thread. I wanted/hoped it would be instructional.

Well, we have gone beyond batteries for lights, to include, batteries for other power failure needs, although we only touched on them lightly, but things such as battery operated cooling fans, sump pump back-ups, and as a means to power one's furnace in the winter. We touched on using the car's alternator, or a small generator to charge a 12v deep cell battery/s.

Please enjoy reading through this thread, and make your contribution, if any at the end.
Thanks for reading this far!


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## ^Gurthang

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I'll speak from my own experience. I have all 18650 powered lights, 6 [at present] single cell and 3 [email protected] conversions. The [email protected] use XRE or XPG emitters @ 1A and will give plenty of light for a typical 14 x 14 room and last ~ 3hrs so I'd want a dozen cells for them 6 in use, 6 in reserve. The single cell light are all multi-mode w/ the low output ranging from < 1L to 25L. All will go a full 6 hours easily, the lowest will last 18 hours. I'd want another dozen, 1 in each light + 1 spare each. If I was forced to use the car to charge cells I'd want a good 6 or 8 cell hobby charger that could charge at a full 1A / cell, that way I could charge a dozen cells in <6 hrs. 

For the kids I'd buy several single cell AAA lights w/ 5 mm LED along the line of the Fenix E-01, rugged, cheap and basic plus tough enough for either a 5 or 10 yr olds' abuse, just give one to yourself and one to the wife for EDC. Give them to the kids when the outage occurs.


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## StarHalo

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

- The family will most likely be together in the family or dining room since there are no electronic toys to distract individuals; a ceiling-bounced ~100 lumens is plenty for this setting, our family has dined and played board games under this very scenario during a few Earth Hours. 

- There's no need to light rooms no one is in if everyone has a flashlight, otherwise you're just wasting batteries. Each person needs a light that's bright enough to ceiling-bounce illuminate a bathroom or their own room, so ~25 lumens max is adequate, with a low mode for reading.

- Since flashlights are only used for bathroom breaks during the day, only the waking hours of the evening see real battery use, and most people go to bed early without electronic toys. You're looking at only 4-6 hours of constant lighting at modest levels, so only a handful of primary batteries will easily last the week, no recharging needed.

- The biggest drain on batteries isn't lights at all; you're going to want a source of news and information on at all times, or at least a morale boost when news isn't on - your *battery-powered radio* will be on nonstop for roughly 16 hours a day regardless of all other conditions, and at that rate most digital radios will need a battery swap every other day.


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## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Last year, my wife and I cheated during Earth day, and watched TV. I recall commenting that 100 lm in the kitchen did a pretty good job.
Perhaps later tonight I'll try it again as a reminder. 

When Superstorm Sandy hit I was fortunate. I have a generator. We lost power for 3 1/2 days. I never really had to test my family's ability to handle low levels of light. We also had DVDs and video games, for entertainment. So I can't relate very well.

However, while most of my neighbors felt that they did pretty well, some stated that by the third day, that some nerves were getting a little frayed. I'm thinking (but really don't know) that lighting the main room at 600-800 lumens, and an adjacent room or two at 100 lumens each would work wonders alleviating the "closed in" feeling. 

Some friends charged their cell phones in the car and played games on them at night. 

We had one power failure that lasted a few hours at night, and my generator was 20 miles away, so we relied on battery powered light. I brought out the 12 w compact spiral florescent lantern rated at 720 lumens, and we were pretty comfortable in the living room. The grandkids were able to do some creative playing. That lantern will burn for 5 hours on a charge. It takes a 6v 4.5 Ah SLA battery that can be charged from the car cigar lighter.


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## StarHalo

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> I'm thinking (but really don't know) that lighting the main room at 600-800 lumens, and an adjacent room or two at 100 lumens each would work wonders alleviating the "closed in" feeling.



Those numbers are serious overkill; the goal is not to light the room similar to how it looks when the power is on, rather, to light the room enough to complete tasks (even if that's just a board game) and not feel like you're sitting in the dark. You'll find once your eyes are dark-adjusted, a living room lit by a ceiling-bounced ~100 lumens is entirely comfortable, and anything brighter would just be putting more light on what you can already see (which therefore speeds battery discharge.) The ~100 lumen number for big rooms and ~25 lumen number for small rooms isn't some sort of utilitarian minimum, it's where the "create a relaxing environment" and "conserve battery use" lines intersect.

Lighting adjacent rooms would only be necessary if you're not sure where they are; if everyone has their own light, they can go where they please, but most people would prefer to be with their family and the radio.

I mentioned using primary batteries because recharging would be yet another item to add to your to-do list, and you want to keep that list as short as possible once the power's out. When your kids are complaining about being bored, and your wife is wondering how to prepare a meal, and you're trying to work out how to heat/cool the room, and calculate the capacity of the water heater in days, etc - you're not going to want to work out an expedient and orderly battery charging method in the middle of all this. Just toss and replace the dead battery, continue with your task at hand. With sane output levels, this won't happen very often, and will save you a lot of time and extra effort.


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## Badbeams3

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Indeed, both my chargers have 12 volt adapters so...

As far as lumen go...50 to 100 is comfortable. Could get by with less...might want several of them in different rooms. In reality, if the power was expected to be out for a day or more I have a couple inverters (just start my truck every once in a while) and all my lamps are either florescent or led...so...that would be set up. Lol...along with my TV and wi-fi stuff...I don`t care to suffer.


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## think2x

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

My son has a Quark AA2 that he uses on moonlight or low most of the time. My daughter has a Thrunite Ti moonlight. My wife carries a PD22. Out of the three of them, my daughter's lights lack the most flexibilty. To make up for that I also have a PD32, SF U2 ultra and a Maelstrom G5 which all have plenty of flexibility (low/runtime vs. high output)

EDIT: How many batteries: I have 15-18 cr123's left in my pelican case, 12 spare NiMh LSD AA's charged and sitting at any given moment, a 3 AW16340's, 2 AW17670's, 3 Redilast 18650/2900's and half a dozen salvaged 18650 netbook cells.

I also have an 18V Porter Cable shop light modded from florescent to 3-XML's driven @ 1 amp with 2 packs.


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## Echo63

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

My Ryobi one+ area light will do "up to 16hrs" on the big batteries, of which I have 4. 
I think it does 5-6 hours in high, which is still plenty for a night, and the light has plenty of output to play a board game or read.
My Pelican RALS does 4hrs on low (500 lumens) and is perfect for tasks that need a bit more light (cooking etc) and has two batteries, so with light use (for cooking, and other tasks needing lots of light) should only need one recharge per battery for the duration

everyone would be using a low output/long runtime light, I'm not sure which, but I do keep a stock of CR123 primaries - which should keep us going for the duration.
My Surefire Minimus Vision would probably be on my head - it's a great light for power outages - and doesn't use much juice from a CR123 on the lower levels.
The wife would probably have her SWM V10R - which would go through a few cells (she would run it a lot higher than I would)
I am going to have to get a few AA lights, I have a massive stock of AA cells, at last count I had 4x packs of 30 cells, but I have used quite a few, so I'm probably down to 60 AA, 10 CR123 (almost everything runs Rechargeables) and 4 CR2 (for my Aeon and 47s miniCR2)


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## Slewflash

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I've got 34 18650s. 
12* Trustfire Flames 2400mAh
12* Sanyo UR18650FM 2600mAh
10* Panasonic NCR18650A 2900mAh

I'd probably use them in my TN30 and just keep it at or under 100 lm each. If other people needed light I'd bring out the Shocker, then TN31 and finally my L2M.

Just surviving on the TN30 is 75hrs on 45 lumen mode, and 10 hrs on 422 lumen mode. Definitely enough to survive for more than a few days. I'll be using them roughly 8 hours a day at night, so that'd run me 3 18650s every 9 days.
But seeing as there's no light pollution I _might_ be able to get away with the 1.2 lumen low mode which is 1200 hrs run time.


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## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> However, while most of my neighbors felt that they did pretty well, some stated that by the third day, that some nerves were getting a little frayed. I'm thinking (but really don't know) that lighting the main room at 600-800 lumens, and an adjacent room or two at 100 lumens each would work wonders alleviating the "closed in" feeling.





StarHalo said:


> Those numbers are serious overkill; the goal is not to light the room similar to how it looks when the power is on, rather, to light the room enough to complete tasks (even if that's just a board game) and not feel like you're sitting in the dark. You'll find once your eyes are dark-adjusted, a living room lit by a ceiling-bounced ~100 lumens is entirely comfortable, and anything brighter would just be putting more light on what you can already see (which therefore speeds battery discharge.) The ~100 lumen number for big rooms and ~25 lumen number for small rooms isn't some sort of utilitarian minimum, it's where the "create a relaxing environment" and "conserve battery use" lines intersect.



I did a little test last night and the 720 lm lantern didn't light a room as well as my TK35 ceiling bounced at 350 lm. Also 800 lm ceiling bounced is probably brighter than what we normally light a room (at least with night adjusted eyes.) So, I'll have to agree that my original numbers are a bit overkill. My idea of lighting adjacent rooms, even if they aren't being used, is just to give a more spacious feeling (why do we buy larger homes than we actually need?) A single 18650 light will give 80-100 lm for 7-10 hours, or 40 lm for 40 hours so if you can see the kitchen from the family room, then why not put a light out there? Yeah, in one respect it might be wasteful, but aren't we energy wasteful all the time? It would allow a member to go to the cooler without having to bring his flashlight.

You see my thought is that for the first day or two, dining by candle light might be nostalgic and romantic, but after a few days of living out of a cooler, maybe dealing with no heat, or AC, lack of TV, etc. nostalgic may become stressful. if I can give "normalcy" with some additional light, then why not? I'm thinking now, that my Xtar WP6II, plugged into the cigar lighter of my car, can do 6 18650's at a time, so I might just as well burn through them and light up the house.

My TN30 with three 18650s will run for 10 hours @ 350 lm. Each of the remaining three 18650s could power other lights @ 80-100 lm for about 8 hours.


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## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

For those who may be concerned about running the car battery down to recharge 18650 batteries, I did some calculations in another thread. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...d-flashlight&p=4255094&viewfull=1#post4255094

I estimate that the average car alternator has a 940 watt hours/hour extra capacity, beyond what it takes to run the engine itself. That relates to 15.77 watt hours/ per minute.
I estimate that six 18650 batteries have a capacity of 70 watt hours.
Therefore the average alternator, can replace the energy, taken from the car battery to charge six 18650s, in about 5 minutes.


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## MatthewSB

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

The word "need" implies that you couldn't get by without it. Very few people that I know "need" to be doing much during dark hours, other than navigate to the restroom, maintain whatever is heating a house to keep the members inside from freezing, or tend to an emergency. We've had plenty of outtages, everybody goes to bed early, or we hang out in the dark chatting. I enjoy it  

My EDC light, a Surefire E1B, has 30something hours of power on low mode, which is plenty bright enough to get around in the dark. If I use the light for an hour a night, I have a month of light, so the battery in the light and a pair of spares in a carrier should do.

I have a quality light, and a spare, for everyone in our family. We also have 50+ CR123 batteries for "just in case". I buy lots of lights and batteries not because I think I'll need them for any one disaster, but because you never know when there will be an interruption in supply, for any reason, that could cause them to get very expensive very fast.

For a weeklong power interruption, I could make do with any top shelf (durable and reliable) light with a functional low mode and a 4 spare lithium cells. 

If something unlikely happened and we had to leave the property (lolBugout), lots of light could be very important. My E1B, dual mode P2X Fury, and a 12 pack of batteries would be ideal. I'd probably end up bringing 6 or so lights though, and 25 or more batteries, because there's plenty of room in the 4x4.



Poppy said:


> How many alkalines would you need?



Not a single one.

Quality lights get quality batteries - lithium.

Alkalines are a messy, light ruining disaster waiting to happen. Using them in any light, that I might depend upon, doesn't make sense to me.

Lithiums last 10+ years on the shelf, and can't leak and destroy a light. After about 5 years I sell them to a friend who goes through a ton of them and doesn't care about the timestamp and I replace my stock with fresh ones.

I tried rechargeables, but for the hassle and initial expense, combined with the incredible efficiency of modern lights, it didn't make sense for me. It takes me a month or more to use up the battery on my EDC light, and it costs $1 for a new one. I do have a dozen LFP123s and a charger though, in case there is a very long term interruption in supply (very unlikely).


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## RobertM

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

It amazing that among all of the expensive flashlights that I own, it's the cheaper Black Diamond Apollo lantern that get most used during power outages. It works great for setting on a table, countertop, or bathroom sink to light up the room. I run it on Eneloop AA cells and in real use, even with extended power outages, I haven't needed to recharge them in the middle of the outage. 

At my house, everyone tends to carry around a small, personal flashlight for navigating around the house and then use LED lanterns (we have two Black Diamond Apollo and two Black Diamond Orbit lanterns) for activities in a certain room. 

I know that there generally isn't much talk on CPF about lanterns, but they are incredibly useful (along with LED headlamps!). 

Admittedly though, we also use a propane converted Honda generator for outages lasting more than a few hours.  It will run the refrigerator, propane furnace, and lights and power outlets in select rooms.


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## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Yep, for week long outages, it doesn't really take much to be comfortable.

I've been through several 5 day outtages in the middle of winter (darned ice storms that take out power lines). While in college, everyone else in the apartment building moved out for the week to stay at friends' or hotels. My roommate and I elected to stay. All we needed was a couple of flashlights (which I had handy), for bathroom use (fortunately the water heater was gas powered, so we still had hot water to shower with). Aside from that, we went to bed early. Over the 5 days till power was restored, the apartment's interior temp continued to drop till it reached the low 50's fahrenheit. We just put on more clothes.

The last ice storm a few years ago, I once again lost power for several days. This time though, I had numerous power backups to recharge devices so I could use my phone etc. I also used an inverter off the vehicle to power the propane heater to heat the house (evidently, this house has worse insulation than the apartment in college as interior temps dropped faster over 24 hours). Had far more lighting available than needed with my current collection of lights AND the ability to recharge them in a vehicle, or with the solar charger.

I'd say in an outage, 100 lumens to light up a living room where everyone would be is definitely sufficient. My preference is for everyone to have their own flashlight without needing to light up rooms that no one's in. Flashlights with low modes and tailstand capability are invaluable in power outages. If tailstanding capability is an issue, just leave a glass or something simple to place a non-tailstand capable light in in each room where it would be handy. Headlights are extremely useful as they put light where it's needed, allowing the user to have both hands free AND enabling the use of lower levels which means better runtimes.

These days though, with LED lights, the decent ones have such good runtimes on lower modes that battery life is no longer the issue it used to be compared to the incans of old, with a 1-3 hour runtime on fresh batteries. 3 lumens in a dark house is more than enough to navigate, and even a 1xAAA LED light will run for hours upon hours at that level. 100 lumens to illuminate a room via ceiling bounce provides enough lighting to be comfortable and a single 18650 light can provide that for anywhere from 7-14 hours. My TM26 will go for over 1000 hours at 3 lumens and 50+hours at 95 lumens.

Pak-Lites would also be convenient as they have tailstand capability, will run for ridiculously long times and are light and easily pocketable. The Pak-Lite Ultra in low mode is certainly enough to navigate with and can be left on constantly in low mode for a couple of months. In High mode, it's enough to adequately illuminate a room via ceiling bounce and will still run ~80 hours on a single Lithium 9v. In a pinch, you can also pop any alkaline 9v from any household smoke detector and run the Pak-Lite for hours upon hours off it. Folks have tested 'dead' 9v batteries (ones that trigger the smoke detector's low battery beeping) and run the Pak-Lite in low mode continuously for weeks on these 'dead' 9v batteries.




Max


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## NeedMoreLight

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

12 volt deep cycle battery, some extension cords, few cheap yard sale lamps and 12 volt marine light bulbs will do the trick. I lived off grid for several years and learned to live the TEOTWAWKI type life. Add a couple extra batteries and have a 12 volt TV, truck type 12 volt fans, add inverter to power laptop, cell phone charger etc.
I finally bought some solar batteries and turned the entire place 12 volt with propane to heat, cook and run the propane fridge.


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## StarHalo

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> it might be wasteful, but aren't we energy wasteful all the time?



Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Comfort during a power outage will not come from more light, it will come from knowing that you can do several more days without issue; more light/more battery use will reduce your comfort in this instance.

All these recharging scenarios assume everything is going smoothly and you're flush with free time and energy to sort and maintain batteries. Anyone who's done more than a day without power will give you a long list of tasks they had to do and things they wish they could have had completed that do not include babying batteries. And the 12V socket in your car is good for maybe 200 watts, if a fuse or breaker doesn't catch it much over that, the hobby-grade wire most car manufacturers use to wire the socket will simply heat up and catch fire. This all assumes you can just drive down to the station to get more gas, which isn't always how it works in an outage, particularly lengthy ones.


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## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



StarHalo said:


> Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.


I agree!!!! 
At the lumen level I mentioned above, would require six 18650s a day. Certainly if recharging becomes an issue, I can cut it back to one a day. And we do have candles.  Regarding reserves, I have sixteen or eighteen 18650s, five 6v 4.5 Ah SLAs, twenty AA duraloops, another dozen AA NiMH, a fist full of AAA NiMH, a box full of various sizes alkalines, and four cars with fully charged batteries. AND a 5KW generator. 

I checked the owner's manual for my van and the front and rear cigar lighters are on different circuits, each on a 20 amp fuse, so you're right about 240 watts each. My Xtar WP6-II says that it's input is 12v 2.0 amps. that's only 24 watts, and should be very safe. Of course, when I first got it I had to fill it up with batteries and try it out in the car. It worked without a problem.

Regarding not having time to fool with charging batteries. I guess if you have to be out on the roof with a chain saw getting that tree out of your living room, then yeah... batteries would be kinda low on the list of priorities. Certainly power outages are often the result of unusual weather. Fortunately for me, we rarely have outages, and when we do they are usually for 1-3 hours. Sandy caused a 3 1/2 day loss for us and up to a couple of weeks for others in my area. 

Obtaining gasoline was the biggest challenge, and generators are HUNGRY for fuel. 

I filled both the Bronco 34 gal tank, and the windstar 25 gallon tanks, and parked them. I don't quite recall, but I think that I used 10-12 gallons a day in the generator. I figured out how to jumper the fuel pump relay and pump gas out of the fuel test port on the fuel rail into a gas container so that I didn't have to stand in line with five gallon cans.

Fortunately for me my to-do list was rather short, and included a lot of sitting around and reading 
We still had gas and water, and the weather was moderate enough that we didn't need heat or AC.


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## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



StarHalo said:


> Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Comfort during a power outage will not come from more light, it will come from knowing that you can do several more days without issue; more light/more battery use will reduce your comfort in this instance.
> 
> All these recharging scenarios assume everything is going smoothly and you're flush with free time and energy to sort and maintain batteries. Anyone who's done more than a day without power will give you a long list of tasks they had to do and things they wish they could have had completed that do not include babying batteries. And the 12V socket in your car is good for maybe 200 watts, if a fuse or breaker doesn't catch it much over that, the hobby-grade wire most car manufacturers use to wire the socket will simply heat up and catch fire. This all assumes you can just drive down to the station to get more gas, which isn't always how it works in an outage, particularly lengthy ones.


That's where planning ahead comes in. If you've got all your crucial amenities covered (water, food, shelter, heat, light etc.), what is there to fill up the day? Aside from reading, I end up looking for activities to occupy my time.

As for vehicular inverters, I have a 400watt inverter that uses alligator clips to connect to the battery. The CLA type are limited due to the wiring, but I've seen inverters up to 750w (or higher?) that hook up straight to the battery (require the engine to be running).


Max


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## reppans

*Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I'm always on the extreme low end of these threads, but a single AA Eneloop or 14500 per week for my son and I would be fine in our QAAXs with DIY lantern and "neck band" accessories. We kinda like using the brightish moonlight and 3 lm low mode the most with fully dark-adapted eyes and they're good for ~200/50 hrs respectively. Guess it's counterintuitive, but we can see a lot more (of our environment) with full night vision and that makes the a dark world feel a bit less scary. Wifey likes more though - she'll go through about 8 Eneloops per week with my 4xAA camping lantern.

We lost power for nearly a week 4 times in the last 3 years, the last being Sandy. I have a small RV with a generator that could easily sustain us and the generator saved our house fridge/freezer food throughout the outages and also charged laptops (for DVD movies), tablets, smartphones and Eneloops. Through wireless services, we had the internet through most it. All my portable camping/travel/emergency electronic gadgets are based around Eneloops and wall, car, solar chargers, which have been thoroughly tested, but were not required for these outages. 

For primaries, I have a few dozen 3v CRAAs lithium primaries which I like since they're also useful (w/a dummy cell) to power all my 2xAA devices, and of course alkaline blister packs. One of the reasons I really like AA devices is that you can also power them with AAAs and 9Vs in a pinch so there's a lot of household scavenging options (and 9Vs remained a available in store throughout all of the Sandy outage). I like having as many power options as possible.


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## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



bluemax_1 said:


> As for vehicular inverters, I have a 400watt inverter that uses alligator clips to connect to the battery. *The CLA type are limited due to the wiring,* but I've seen inverters up to 750w (or higher?) that hook up straight to the battery (require the engine to be running).
> 
> 
> Max



I guess the CLA type stands for Cigar Lighter Accessory? 
I have one of those smaller inverters that plug into the cigar lighter. One year I drove to Florida from NJ without a radio in my motor home, singing the same song, over and over in my head all the way, because in preparation to leaving my daughter plugged the house vacuum cleaner into the inverter and blew the fuse for the cigar lighter. I didn't know we had no radio until we were underway, and I didn't want to stop to troubleshoot.

The type that can connect directly to the battery can supply much more current.


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## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



reppans said:


> I'm always on the extreme low end of these threads, but a single AA Eneloop or 14500 per week for my son and I would be fine in our QAAXs with DIY lantern and "neck band" accessories.



Good morning reppans!
No power failure thread would be complete without your participation. 
Please post a link or picture of your DIY lantern, it's really cool.


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## reppans

*Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> Please post a link or picture of your DIY lantern, it's really cool.



Here ya go Poppy...

clicky and clicky


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## yliu

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I think a 3D LED Maglite (or Fenix TK60 if u can afford) with 2 sets of batteries would be enough for a week to light up a room. You could use them when the family is together.
I would mainly use AA format lights. Such as the Fenix LD series. I think 2 set of batteries can also get you through the whole week.

Get a couple diffusers/lampshade or just do ceiling bounce.

Most importantly, try to use the lowest setting possible and take in account that our eye can adjust to low light conditions. Most of the lights should be able to make it through the week without battery swap if u really use it very sparingly. 

If you are in an emergency situation, you might as well have a high powered light in case u need to go outdoors.


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## cland72

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I have a 47 mini123 that, on low, will give just enough illumination (in tailstand mode) to navigate a dark room with dark adapted eyes. It will run for approx 6 days in this mode. That would likely be my primary light to use in the event of a power outage. 

As backup, I also have a Surefire U2 (175 hours on low) and a Surefire Minimus (50 hours) for hands free needs.

If the power were out for a week, I estimate I'd go through maybe 10 CR123 batteries.


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## wjv

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I have a couple Fenix diffusers and a couple Fenix "camp light" caps that fit on the ends of various flashlights. I'd run them at 2-30 lumens. depending on which light it is and what its lowest setting is.

I also have a crank lantern (freeplay) and a crank radio (eaton) plus a couple of LED lanterns and shoe boxes full of batteries plus all my rechargeables.

1) $5 Walmart lantern, with parchment paper added to enhance the diffusing effect.
2) FreePlay Indigo, 6 LED, Wind up or USB charge lantern
3) Brunton Polaris 3C cell, 3 LED, 50 hours on high (3 Watt - ~90 lumen)
4) Rayovac Sportsman 3D, 72 hours on high, 150 hours on low (4 watt - 300 lumen)







Here is a review I wrote a while back with some "beam shots" from these lanterns

http://pullig.dyndns.org/practicalpreps/forums3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1229&hilit=


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## Jimson

*Concentrating on the kids*

Any kids in my house would already have their own flashlight. When young relatives hit 3-4 years, I buy them a 2-AA light with a push-button in the switch. That's what the child uses, for I use a dab of glue to deactivate the slide part of the switch. This worked well even in the old incandescent bulb days. With a low-draw LED, battery leakage would be the main problem. The ten-year-old would have graduated to his/her 2-C Maglite, the "C" part being good for smaller hands. Again, the light is fitted with a low-draw LED PR-flange bulb. A frill on this one is a couple of adapters so the light can use AA batteries if need be. I can't foresee kids needing a bright flashlight.


----------



## trialt

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I think the simplest and most reliable setup would be to have a malkoff M61LL which will give you about 100 lumens for 10 hours if you used it in a SF 6P or similar light. I like using mine in a G2. I would use this to light up the living room (ceiling bounce, just put your light in a mug to tail stand). You could also have 1 or 2 extra M61LLL (I think about 30 lumens for 20 hours) for personal use of family members or alternatively gets Malkoff's MD2 body with a switch so you can use the M61LL in a high or low mode.


----------



## Samy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

In my experience lanterns are great for outside use, where you have no ceiling to bounce light from. Inside, a lantern can't compete with a decent white ceiling to bounce light from. 

I've had a few power failures at home and at work in the last 2 years so i've converted to decent tailstanding lights, amassed a small army of eneloops and setup a small 12 volt solar recharging station at home. I also try to keep a dozen+ spare fully charged eneloops for emergency situations. My 8 bay eneloop charger takes 2.5hrs to charge a full set of 8 eneloops via my deep cycle 12 volt battery. 

The best power failure light i have is my TK 41, yes it uses a whopping 8x AA eneloops but it gets 27 hrs at 110 lumens (that's 6+ days at 4hrs per night) or if i want to really light up the house it gets 7.5 hrs at 350 lumens. The superbright spotlight which the TK 41 emits performs just like the normal ceiling AC bulb. It works really well.

I also use zebralight headlamps, a few low lumen single AA lights (quark, V10a), my Zebralight SC600 during outages but it has failed (just out of warranty) and i also use my Klarus ST20 but it doesn't tailstand on it's own. But that TK 41 is perfect for lighting up the house. I'm so impressed that i plan to buy another to store purely for power failures. 

cheers


----------



## jimboutilier

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

We've pretty much standardized our emergency gear on AA cells and keep a mixture of Alkaline and Lithium primaries as well as rechargable NiMh and LiOn batteries ready to go. As we buy in bulk our low stock level is usually around 24 of each so we have plenty of primaries for days or weeks. And with a few solar generator setups from Goal Zero, keeping things going on rechargables for months would be no problem. 

For utility use we keep a number of 1, 2, and 4 AA celled Nitecore EA series lights around. Everyone has a single AA EDC and another 2 or 4 cell nightstand light. While the blinking "find me" lights on the EA series do use some power, they are very comforting during power outages and make the lights easy to find in the dark. For storage we use the tail cap lockout so the batteries don't drain, but when ready for use the blinkies are on. 

For a few day outage we likely wouldn't have to break into spare batteries at all with the lights we have around and our frugal use. But on an ongoing basis figure maybe 2 batteries a day per person.


----------



## Theron

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Most of my lights can use CR123As, and I have enough Panasonic primaries to keep the entire house nicely lit for at least 250 days. Probably closer to 500 days considering sunlight and sleeping hours. 

Nothing better for emergencies and quite cheap in bulk. 

We have typhoons and earthquakes, so everyone always carries lights and whistles.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



wjv said:


> I have a couple Fenix diffusers and a couple Fenix "camp light" caps that fit on the ends of various flashlights. I'd run them at 2-30 lumens. depending on which light it is and what its lowest setting is.
> 
> I also have a crank lantern (freeplay) and a crank radio (eaton) plus a couple of LED lanterns and shoe boxes full of batteries plus all my rechargeables.
> 
> 1) $5 Walmart lantern, with parchment paper added to enhance the diffusing effect.
> 2) FreePlay Indigo, 6 LED, Wind up or USB charge lantern
> 3) Brunton Polaris 3C cell, 3 LED, 50 hours on high (3 Watt - ~90 lumen)
> 4) Rayovac Sportsman 3D, 72 hours on high, 150 hours on low (4 watt - 300 lumen)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a review I wrote a while back with some "beam shots" from these lanterns
> 
> http://pullig.dyndns.org/practicalpreps/forums3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1229&hilit=



Bill,
Thanks for sharing your pictures, and the link to the beam shots of your lanterns.

I agree... there isn't much discussion about lanterns here at CPF, frankly I'd like to see more, and comparative "beam shots" like your's would be wonderful.





Samy said:


> In my experience lanterns are great for outside use, where you have no ceiling to bounce light from. Inside, a lantern can't compete with a decent white ceiling to bounce light from.
> 
> I've had a few power failures at home and at work in the last 2 years so i've converted to decent tailstanding lights, amassed a small army of eneloops and setup a small 12 volt solar recharging station at home. <SNIP>



Samy,
I'd say that was a pretty astute observation. I have to agree with you that lanterns are great for the outdoors. I also tend to agree that ceiling bounced lights are better, for the most part. However, lanterns that take 6 or 12 volt SLAs can have a higher output for a longer period of time, due to the higher capacity of the battery, they would take fewer battery changes. Depending upon the situation, there may be an advantage to that.


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> I agree... there isn't much discussion about lanterns here at CPF, frankly I'd like to see more,



Because there's no innovation by the manufacturers when it comes to lanterns, especially compared to flashlights. The only lanterns I've been interested in over the last few years include only the warm Favourlight and a few of the custom mods CPFers have thrown together.


----------



## Sub_Umbra

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Interesting comments. I agree with many of them.

I would add a couple points to consider when trying to calculate how many hours of light must be provided per night in an emergency:

First of all if you live in a place where the climate *or your health* requires AC and the grid is down you may be forced to do many tasks at night when it is a bit cooler than it is in the daytime without AC. This may add hours and hours of runtime per night which should be taken into account in your planning.

Secondly, if the grid down event is of wide enough scope and duration and is such that law enforcement and _society itself begins to break down_ you may find yourself switching some tasks from day to night for *OPSEC* reasons. As above, more night time tasks equals more runtime per night.

The thing to take away from this is that if the situation is bad enough you may actually be *kicked out of your normal daily routine.* Include that possibility in your planning.

While it may seem counterintuitive to most, I've personally been through *both* of the above scenarios.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Sub_Umbra said:


> Interesting comments. I agree with many of them.
> 
> I would add a couple points to consider when trying to calculate how many hours of light must be provided per night in an emergency:
> 
> First of all if you live in a place where the climate *or your health* requires AC and the grid is down you may be forced to do many tasks at night when it is a bit cooler than it is in the daytime without AC. This may add hours and hours of runtime per night which should be taken into account in your planning.
> 
> Secondly, if the grid down event is of wide enough scope and duration is such that law enforcement and _society itself begins to break down_ you may find yourself switching some tasks from day to night for *OPSEC* reasons. As above, more night time tasks equals more runtime per night.
> 
> The thing to take away from this is that if the situation is bad enough you may actually be *kicked out of your normal daily routine.* Include that possibility in your planning.
> 
> While it may seem counterintuitive to most, I've personally been through *both* of the above scenarios.


Thanks for your input. The thread in your sig should be required reading. Your preparedness considerations are not only extremely comprehensive, they've also been tried and tested.


Max


----------



## filibuster

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I've been interested in the portable lantern side of emergency lighting for some time and need to get around to updating my lantern beam shots with some new models that have recently become available.

Like wjv I do like the Rayovac 3D LED lantern and think it's probably the best bang for the buck light source around. There are some new 18650 lanterns becoming available as well but the manufacturers are sealing the batteries inside the units and making them rechargeable instead of being able to replace them.

Here's a link to the lantern (and some flashlight) beam shots and their output comparison:
http://www.getpreparedstuff.com/led-lantern-review

Now I just need an automated way to do a runtime comparison.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



filibuster said:


> I've been interested in the portable lantern side of emergency lighting for some time and need to get around to updating my lantern beam shots with some new models that have recently become available.
> 
> Like wjv I do like the Rayovac 3D LED lantern and think it's probably the best bang for the buck light source around. There are some new 18650 lanterns becoming available as well but the manufacturers are sealing the batteries inside the units and making them rechargeable instead of being able to replace them.
> 
> Here's a link to the lantern (and some flashlight) beam shots and their output comparison:
> http://www.getpreparedstuff.com/led-lantern-review
> 
> Now I just need an automated way to do a runtime comparison.



Very Nice! How long does the Rayovac run in the real world (I don't trust manufacturer specs on most off the shelf common store items)?


Max


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



filibuster said:


> I've been interested in the portable lantern side of emergency lighting for some time and need to get around to updating my lantern beam shots with some new models that have recently become available.
> 
> Like wjv I do like the Rayovac 3D LED lantern and think it's probably the best bang for the buck light source around. There are some new 18650 lanterns becoming available as well but the manufacturers are sealing the batteries inside the units and making them rechargeable instead of being able to replace them.
> 
> Here's a link to the lantern (and some flashlight) beam shots and their output comparison:
> http://www.getpreparedstuff.com/led-lantern-review
> 
> Now I just need an automated way to do a runtime comparison.



Nice job! Thanks for adding those comparisons to the conversation. One point that it makes is how well a ceiling bounced light performs. 

One of the drawbacks of lanterns, is that if you happen to look in the direction of the light, your iris might step down, making your eyes, less "dark adapted".


----------



## ledmitter_nli

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I like the best of both worlds lantern/flashlight and just use a diffuser over a warm LED dropin.

The Xeno diffusers in particular can stand.


----------



## reppans

*Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> One of the drawbacks of lanterns, is that if you *happen* to look in the direction of the light, your iris might step down, making your eyes, less "dark adapted".



If you "happen" to look...? 360 degree lanterns are designed TO look at, I guess in a comforting campfire sort of way. If you use a lantern off to the side so as not be directly within your peripheral vision, you are wasting lumens and battery power (esp outside without bounce back). But I agree with you - yet another reason I gave up on camping lanterns in favor of the flashlight and directional bounce diffusers.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



reppans said:


> If you "happen" to look...? 360 degree lanterns are designed TO look at, I guess in a comforting campfire sort of way.<snip>



LOL...yeah, I didn't quite know how to write that 

I have two lanterns, one a 12w spiral florescent (Northwest Territory Rechargeable Lantern ) 6v SLA battery
and a Coleman with two 6watt 9 inch florescent tubes.

the NW territory gives a bright white light, that is good for doing work in the kitchen, but may get annoying for sitting and chatting. It also somewhat causes one to look at it, adn you have to purposefully look away from it.

The Coleman on the other hand, has a warmer soft white light, not quite as good for doing kitchen work, but it does give more of that "campfire" feel; certainly more comfortable for sitting around chatting. With two tubes, it has a high and low setting, (one tube or two). It runs on two 6v alkaline batteries. I bought a pair of SLAs that I can swap in, before I was introduced to 18650 LiON batteries and better flashlights.


----------



## subwoofer

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

May sound a bit flippant, but buy a bag of 100 tea lights and pack of disposable lighters. Total outlay <$10 and you have a good couple of weeks of romantic off-grid light.

It is amazing how little light you actually need if it gets really dark and it can be fun to see how we used to live 

Though the above is actually quite serious, I think you are over thinking this. One unknown is how long the power will be off. A friend of mine lived in a remote village where they lost power for 8 weeks. The roads were cut off, so running a car engine to recharge batteries was limited by the lack of being able to drive to fill up with fuel. Weather was bad so solar was not much of an option. In the end the choice was limited to candles as a source of light.

Another option is to try it out for your required test period. Working in IT we say that an 'unverified backup is no backup at all', meaning that unless you actually try out your backup you won't know if it actually works. So pick a couple of weeks and switch off the mains power at the consumer unit and live your scenario. You can report back and tell us how many batteries you needed.


----------



## Sub_Umbra

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



subwoofer said:


> May sound a bit *flippant,* but buy a bag of 100 tea lights and pack of disposable lighters. Total outlay <$10 and you have a good couple of weeks of romantic off-grid light...


 Emphasis mine.

I would advise people to avoid candles at all costs during an outage when the fire department may be stressed out or nonexistent... When our power is out after a storm I walk around to all of my closest neighbors and make sure that they have flashlights. If they don't I will lend them one (with batteries) so they won't have to burn candles next to MY house. I stock candles for trade goods but I wouldn't trade them to anyone who lives within a couple hundred feet of me...

A 9v Pak-Lite and two lithium batteries will provide 2,000 hours of runtime. Very few have put by enough fuel, food and water to take them through the runtime that a Pak-Lite and a spare battery will deliver.

To deliberately plan to use an open flame for light when there may be no fire department or even water to put out a fire would seem flippant, especially when there are so many affordable alternatives in the 21st century.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



subwoofer said:


> <snip> I think you are over thinking this. One unknown is how long the power will be off. A friend of mine lived in a remote village where they lost power for 8 weeks. The roads were cut off, so running a car engine to recharge batteries was limited by the lack of being able to drive to fill up with fuel. Weather was bad so solar was not much of an option. In the end the choice was limited to candles as a source of light.




I estimate that a single 18650 battery will supply 80-100 lumens for 7-10 hours, and 40 lumens for 40 hours.
Most here seem to feel comfortable sitting in a room lit @ 100 lumens (or less), so that is one 18650 a day, or less.

I estimate that my car burns 2-3 gallons of fuel per hour at 50-72 MPH ( I get 25 mpg)

I estimate that the average car alternator has a 940 watt hours/hour extra capacity, beyond what it takes to run the engine itself. That relates to 15.77 watt hours/ per minute.
I estimate that six 18650 batteries have a capacity of 70 watt hours.
Therefore the average alternator, can replace the energy, taken from the car battery to charge six 18650s, in about 5 minutes.

In other words the engine would have to run about a minute for each battery. 
If we do the math, and extrapolate out, 7 X 8= 56 days times 1 battery / day= 56 batteries, and 56 minutes of engine running - burning between 2-3 gallons, and in my car that is 1/8 to 3/16ths of a tank.

In two months, I would hope that I was able to make a few trips to the grocery store, or HUNGER will be my bigger concern. While going for groceries, I would be recharging the car battery.



> Another option is to try it out for your required test period.


No thanks... I'd rather do the math.


----------



## subwoofer

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

deleted


----------



## Etsu

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Sub_Umbra said:


> To deliberately plan to use an open flame for light when there may be no fire department or even water to put out a fire would seem flippant, especially when there are so many affordable alternatives in the 21st century.



Fair point. Use a flashlight if it's available. But I think you're overstating the danger of candles. They've been used for thousands of years, and I don't think they were any more dangerous than the electrical stuff we use in our homes today. Keep a candle away from combustibles, preferably in one of those tea-light lanterns, and it will be fine. As with anything that gets hot (stove, oven, toaster, BBQ), don't leave it unattended (not a problem if you're using it for light).

If a neighbor approached me and asked me not to use candles, I might think that he's telling me I'm stupid.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Etsu said:


> Fair point. Use a flashlight if it's available. But I think you're overstating the danger of candles. They've been used for thousands of years, and I don't think they were any more dangerous than the electrical stuff we use in our homes today. Keep a candle away from combustibles, preferably in one of those tea-light lanterns, and it will be fine. As with anything that gets hot (stove, oven, toaster, BBQ), don't leave it unattended (not a problem if you're using it for light).
> 
> If a neighbor approached me and asked me not to use candles, I might think that he's telling me I'm stupid.



I think the problem these days is that very, very few people use candles aside from birthday cakes and romantic dinners.

I recall my parents using them during blackouts when I was a child, and some of the things they did make a lot of sense from an analytical point of view. For instance, they'd usually use those long white candles that you could get in a 6-pack and place these on a tuna can set in the middle of a light colored basin half filled with water.

An old trick their parents taught them, they said. The light colored basin and the water reflected more of the light upwards for a ceiling bounce and I realized if a candle fell over or was knocked over, it immediately went out when it fell in the water.

Although it only takes a little common sense to use candles safely, the lack of common usage these days means many folks may not think to take enough precautions. I've been to other friend's houses when their parents brought out candles during a blackout who would place them in places where they obviously didn't consider the risk especially if there are animals and small children in the house.

With sufficient precautions and common sense, yes, tea lights could be a cheap alternative, but as Sub Umbra mentioned, when the fire department may be overburdened or non functioning, why take the risk when there are so many reasonably priced options for long running electric lighting these days?

Back in the day when using candles in blackouts was much more common, any extended blackout usually resulted in news reports of home fires begun by careless usage of candles.


Max


----------



## filibuster

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Etsu said:


> Fair point. Use a flashlight if it's available. But I think you're overstating the danger of candles. They've been used for thousands of years, and I don't think they were any more dangerous than the electrical stuff we use in our homes today. Keep a candle away from combustibles, preferably in one of those tea-light lanterns, and it will be fine. As with anything that gets hot (stove, oven, toaster, BBQ), don't leave it unattended (not a problem if you're using it for light).


With small children around a candle would be a liability to have burning inside and something that I wouldn't want them to use by themselves unattended. 

The brightest candle light output is on par to even the the dimmest LED lantern. Shown on the light output comparison page are a couple of "bright" candles for reference, with the "100 hour candle" giving off the most light. Even so, at $5-$6 each for a "100 hour candle" I could buy six D cell alkaline batteries which would give me over 100 hours of high mode light (much much brighter than a candles light) using a Rayovac 3D lantern or close to 200 hours if I run the lantern on low, which is still much brighter than a candle. 

Sure I have to buy the lantern too but in doing so I get a safe and very usable light source with no fumes, fire danger or the need for matches to start my light source. Plus any child can take the lantern and easily use it as needed to study, work or whatever without my supervision. In an emergency I'll likely have many more pressing concerns and having to worry about the kids burning down the house won't be one of them ;-)


----------



## mesa232323

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

L3 ILLUMINATIONS L10 quantity: 3
AA Eneloop quantity: 4

Moonlight mode lasts for days nonstop. In a 5 day period, I may never need to recharge.


----------



## Redhat703

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Power was out last night for about 3 hrs. I used 2 LED lanterns both in medium mode in kitchen and dining room. The MD3 with M91W was put in tail-stand low mode in bedroom gave out enough light.
I use mostly li-ion for my lights. For backup, AA lithium and alkaline, D size alkaline, CR123.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



StarHalo said:


> - The family will most likely be together in the family or dining room since there are no electronic toys to distract individuals; a ceiling-bounced ~100 lumens is plenty for this setting, our family has dined and played board games under this very scenario during a few Earth Hours.
> 
> <snip>
> - The biggest drain on batteries isn't lights at all; you're going to want a source of news and information on at all times, or at least a morale boost when news isn't on - your *battery-powered radio* will be on nonstop for roughly 16 hours a day regardless of all other conditions, and at that rate most digital radios will need a battery swap every other day.



I just tested two different radios that I have.
One, is one of those little 2x4 inch transistor radios. It takes 3 AAs and draws 17 milliamps at 4.5 volts. or 0.0765 watts
The other, is a small boom-box, it has two 3 inch speakers, it runs on 8 C cell batteries and draws 80 milliamps, at 12 volts. or 0.96 watts.

In other words, the larger radio draws 12.5 times as much current as the smaller radio. 

If my math is correct, 
The smaller radio may run for 100 hours on three eneloops,
The larger radio only 25 hours on eight eneloops.

I offer this as a comparison, so that you might take this into consideration


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> The larger radio only 25 hours on eight eneloops.



Yeah, boomboxes are a bad idea for emergency radio use; some of the smaller, more efficient options out there will give you over 200 hours on a pair of larger cells, a welcome reprieve when you're days into a power outage and you've never had to consider changing batteries for your radio..


----------



## LightWalker

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

A boombox would be about as efficient if you plug in some headphones/earbuds.


----------



## Spin

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

You can also use earbuds on the smaller radio to increase battery longevity.....Boombox a very poor emergency radio.


----------



## Sub_Umbra

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

One of the problems with ear buds in an emergency is that only one person may listen at a time. I greatly prefer even something like a $13-15 Sony IFC-F10 with a speaker and 200 hour runtime over anything with ear buds for nearly all grid down situations.

Anyone contemplating an emergency radio would be well served by reading the *"Small Portable Radio's?"* thread.


----------



## davyro

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

i'd have a box of 24 surefire cr123a primaries & all 4 of us would have an hds light each,of course they'd all be on a very low lumen setting to save energy & basically we wouldn't need seering brightness to light up our rooms as our night time vision would be very sensitive & used to the dark,i'd also have my little 2xaa sony radio which batteries last for at least 6 weeks when its in use for 8hrs a day


----------



## creyc

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

We had almost a full days power outage not too long ago, and I can fairly confidently say I would definitely NOT make it through a week long outage.

Between the 4 of us living at the house we went through (6) 18650s, (3-4) 18350s and (4) AA Eneloops in about 24 hours. I've since decided I should start stockpiling many many more cells than I currently own, and to buy a generator. I was pretty surprised by how ill-prepared we all were, just for a single day.

The Pak-Lite suggestion is a good one, and I think I will order up a few. I assume the Pak-Lite Super is the way to go, with its 600-hour low mode?


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

creyc,
I am guessing that if you went through that many batteries in 24 hours, that you, and your family members like a good amount of light.
I don't think that pac-lights throw a lot of light, but rather throw a small amount of light for a long time. I'g guessing, like a single candle. You might look at the comparisons in the link posted above for lanterns. Considering the amount of light that you used, I don't think that you'd be overly happy with the small amount of output of pak-lights.

If you bought a couple of spare 18650s and had a car charger for the lot, you'd be good to go, even if the outage lasted a week.

Do you know how many lumens each of your lights put out?
I'm curious to know how many lumens you felt that you needed to be comfortable.
Did you light one room or a multiple of rooms?


----------



## creyc

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> creyc,
> I am guessing that if you went through that many batteries in 24 hours, that you, and your family members like a good amount of light.
> I don't think that pac-lights throw a lot of light, but rather throw a small amount of light for a long time. I'g guessing, like a single candle. You might look at the comparisons in the link posted above for lanterns. Considering the amount of light that you used, I don't think that you'd be overly happy with the small amount of output of pak-lights.
> 
> If you bought a couple of spare 18650s and had a car charger for the lot, you'd be good to go, even if the outage lasted a week.
> 
> Do you know how many lumens each of your lights put out?
> I'm curious to know how many lumens you felt that you needed to be comfortable.
> Did you light one room or a multiple of rooms?



Poppy,

Yes we did illuminate the house quite brightly. Truth be told I wasn't too concerned with trying to conserve power and if I thought about it I definitely could have cut back on most of the lights. The outage was very localized, and I had friends and family with power nearby so it was more a camping feeling than a survival experience.

That said, the primary battery consumer was the Blackshadow Terminator, set on medium and left to illuminate a very large room via ceiling bounce. Rated output for this mode is around 1500 lm, I believe. The room was quite well illuminated and everyone seemed happy with it. I would have dropped down to low if the PWM wasn't as noticeable, but I am very sensitive to flickering. On (4) 18650s this light lasts right around 2 hours on medium.

During most of the chores I had a Zebralight H502w strapped to my head, which ate about half of those AAs. I also carried a Thrunite Ti but didn't use it a whole lot. Additionally we passed around a Jetbeam RRT-01 on 18350s, usually turned up fairly bright, a ShiningBeam S-Mini and an EagleTac D25A for personal use. Lastly a Surefire 6P with triple Nichia 219 mule was used for flooding the kitchen and then bedroom.

Most of the time we had multiple lights on in multiple rooms, which is probably why we devoured so many lumens that day. Personally I felt like 100-200 lumens well bounced off the ceiling was plenty for my own comfort and well being.


----------



## RedLED

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

A couple of years ago, Southern California, and a huge part of the southwest US want dark, I think it was September 2011?

I went to the back of the house, and said 'what the hell is that bright beam on the wall'. It was coming from a white PAL light I put on top of a cabinet and forgot about. However, in that darkness it was very bright.


----------



## N8N

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Things are obviously different now than when I was a kid, but I think I would still go with the plan that we used back then, have kerosene lanterns stashed around the house in most rooms where people are likely to congregate. then you only have flashlights on each person for walking around, using the facilities in the middle of the night, etc. Obviously flashlights are cheaper to run today than they were back in the day but kerosene lantern is still more practical, unless you have a generator. Fill them with "lamp oil" if you don't like that kerosene smell, then refill with kero if the outage lasts so long that they run dry.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



N8N said:


> Things are obviously different now than when I was a kid, but I think I would still go with the plan that we used back then, have kerosene lanterns stashed around the house in most rooms where people are likely to congregate. then you only have flashlights on each person for walking around, using the facilities in the middle of the night, etc. Obviously flashlights are cheaper to run today than they were back in the day but kerosene lantern is still more practical, unless you have a generator. Fill them with "lamp oil" if you don't like that kerosene smell, then refill with kero if the outage lasts so long that they run dry.


Hmmm... I remember my dad using kerosene lamps, as well as Coleman lanterns during power outages.


Max


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



N8N said:


> Things are obviously different now than when I was a kid, but I think I would still go with the plan that we used back then, have kerosene lanterns stashed around the house in most rooms where people are likely to congregate. then you only have flashlights on each person for walking around, using the facilities in the middle of the night, etc. Obviously flashlights are cheaper to run today than they were back in the day but kerosene lantern is still more practical, unless you have a generator. Fill them with "lamp oil" if you don't like that kerosene smell, then refill with kero if the outage lasts so long that they run dry.



Wow N8N, you really surprise me! 
Yeah, I have a lamp oil lantern that I fill with citronella oil that I use outside on the concrete patio, it gives light, and more importantly keeps the bugs away, but NO... that doesn't come in the house.

lol... are you trolling for flames? Pun intended. 

I remember hearing the story of Mrs. O'Leary's cow kicking over an oil lantern and causing the Great Chicago Fire!



> [h=1]Great Chicago Fire[/h] From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> The *Great Chicago Fire* was a conflagration that burned from Sunday, October 8, to early Tuesday, October 10, 1871, killing hundreds and destroying about 3.3 square miles (9 km2​) in Chicago, Illinois.[1]​ Though the fire was one of the largest U.S. disasters of the 19th century, more...


----------



## Sub_Umbra

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



creyc said:


> ...The Pak-Lite suggestion is a good one, and I think I will order up a few. I assume the Pak-Lite Super is the way to go, with its 600-hour low mode?


The groovy thing about the *Super* is that the High is brighter while the low is the *same output* as the low on the Original, which makes it the best of both worlds in an emergency. I like the Supers.


----------



## Sub_Umbra

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I have used kerosene lanterns to great effect in decades past but that was in colder climates than I live now. I wouldn't consider them for a grid down situation in the sub-tropics unless it was winter and even then I would have the same reservations I have with candles...

Don't get me wrong, they may both be used safely if common sense is employed -- but common sense doesn't seem to be so common in the 21st century...


----------



## N8N

Yes, I grew up in PA and it seems like the usual cause of power going out was a winter storm... my parents still heat with wood so I guess I'm more comfortable than most with stuff being on fire inside the house.

Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk 4


----------



## Samy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

We lost power for 4 hrs earlier this year (the longest we've lost power in 6 years...) and i put my TK41 in the living room on High (335 lumens, 7hrs runtime) and it lit up our house very brightly. I left a small SC51 in the bathroom area on low to provide some dim lighting down that end of the house for safety. My family just read books & played ipad etc keeping busy. I went for a walk around the street which is on a ridge so i can see other houses some distance away. Most houses were either pitch black or there was a faint flickering of candles. Occasionally there would be a dim yellow incandescent or dim angry blue cheap led flashlight dart about in some houses. All my neighbours had candles burning and in some cases (my next door neighbour) about 5+ candles burning, and it was still very dim in their house. This just reinforced to me that a decent long lasting modern LED flashlight is the safest, brightest way to light up the house. You just have to be prepared with batteries.

cheers


----------



## Devildude

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I am currently without power for two hours. Got the EA8 on ceiling bounce for room illumination and the TK41 on hand for room to room movement. Also have a v11r and a quark AA on hand as back ups. Failing that I have another 100 or so to serve if the need arises.


----------



## Etsu

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Sub_Umbra said:


> I have used kerosene lanterns to great effect in decades past but that was in colder climates than I live now.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, they may both be used safely if common sense is employed -- but common sense doesn't seem to be so common in the 21st century...



Yes, we used to use kerosene lanterns during power outages, growing up. They worked fine, and we never burned the house down.

I don't think people lack common sense nowadays (any more than they used to). I think we're just paranoid about everything now, and consider safety to trump everything. Look at how we wrap our kids in bubbles in order to put them in the car. When I was growing up, nobody even wore seat belts, and as kids we usually just laid down in the back of the station wagon with out feet hanging out the back window. Do that today, and it would get you arrested.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Etsu said:


> Yes, we used to use kerosene lanterns during power outages, growing up. They worked fine, and we never burned the house down.
> 
> I don't think people lack common sense nowadays (any more than they used to). I think we're just paranoid about everything now, and consider safety to trump everything. Look at how we wrap our kids in bubbles in order to put them in the car. When I was growing up, nobody even wore seat belts, and as kids we usually just laid down in the back of the station wagon with out feet hanging out the back window. Do that today, and it would get you arrested.



Yeah, we do seem to be over-protective, until we see a kid get hit in the chest by a baseball and die, or hear that a neighbor's 12 y/o son was ejected from the passenger seat of their pick up and got killed in an otherwise survivable crash. Personally I was opposed to seat-belt laws when they first came out. I thought that education was the way to go. I proposed, to my state representative, that he sponsor a bill, that each time a person buys a vehicle that he view an educational video on driver's safety, and seat belt use. When you see depictions of kids being ejected through the rear window of a station wagon (because they didn't have seat-belts on) in rear end crashes, and then get run over by the striking vehicle - That makes an impression!

Yeah, I'm old enough to remember that as a kid we did a fair amount of camping, and we used the "white gas" pump up Coleman style 2 mantle lanterns. I don't know if they have been outlawed but I know that scout camps don't allow them anymore. I do recall a couple of "exciting" instances of gasoline and fire.

Still, when I am in Walmart or K-mart and see a two mantle *propane lantern* for less than $20 I hesitate and consider picking one up. I like being "prepared" and flexible. Even if I did get one, I would only use it out-doors.


----------



## Sub_Umbra

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Lighting with white gas or candles was very common when I was a kid in the 50s. The big difference between now and then is that we did not have to learn everything about it *during an emergency.* That is a key point. Like never driving a stick shift many today have never used these lighting devices before. In that sense knowledge about candles and white gas lanterns is far *less common* today than it was sixty years ago. These devices were not only used for camping but also fishing and other nightly activities where I grew up. People were very familiar with their use and their hazards.

I think its reasonable to assume that anyone who has forced themselves into the fall back position of using an open flame for lighting during an emergency probably has not used the technology as much as people did in the past -- and even in the past when people had more experience some of them still burnt their houses down _even when the fire department was up and running._


----------



## cland72

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I'm going to change my answer here - I had previously posted I would use my Foursevens mini123 and Surefire U2, but I just got a M61LLL 219 and put it in my yellow G2 - this is now my go to emergency light.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Sub_Umbra said:


> Lighting with white gas or candles was very common when I was a kid in the 50s. The big difference between now and then is that we did not have to learn everything about it *during an emergency.* That is a key point. Like never driving a stick shift many today have never used these lighting devices before. In that sense knowledge about candles and white gas lanterns is far *less common* today than it was sixty years ago. These devices were not only used for camping but also fishing and other nightly activities where I grew up. People were very familiar with their use and their hazards.
> 
> I think its reasonable to assume that anyone who has forced themselves into the fall back position of using an open flame for lighting during an emergency probably has not used the technology as much as people did in the past -- and even in the past when people had more experience some of them still burnt their houses down _even when the fire department was up and running._


Precisely.

This is the same thing I said several posts back. People are a lot less used to using these items these days and typical safety practices that everyone who regularly used kerosene and other flame type lanterns aren't common practice these days. And as we've both stated, something that needs to be emphasized is that even when usage of those items was far more common, fires caused by accidents or inappropriate usage of them still occurred with uncomfortable frequency.

The biggest change here is that back then, there really were no other options that put out that much light for that long. Heck, even 10-15 years ago, there really weren't many other options that put out as much light for equivalent runtimes. 10 years ago, LEDs were still a new thing. Getting 100 lumens out of one wasn't too common, and those that did would drain a maximum capacity 18650 in 60 minutes. We all know how quickly incandescent options ate batteries.

These days, we have SO many safe electrical options available that will run for far longer than those flame type lanterns AND are MUCH safer. With the exception of folks who are destitute, these options aren't exactly bank breaking expensive (eg. all the reasonably priced battery operated LED lanterns).

My Eagletac G25C2-mkII will run for 12-14 hours at ~125lm on a 3400mAh 18650. The TM26 will run even longer on 4x18650's in the 95lm mode. For folks who want to be even safer, there are numerous AA or other NiMH powered options available with great runtime when you don't need the higher output the 18650 lights are capable of (and 100lm is a lot of light when everything's completely dark).


Max


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Sub_Umbra said:


> <snip>
> First of all if you live in a place where the climate *or your health* requires AC and the grid is down you may be forced to do many tasks at night when it is a bit cooler than it is in the daytime without AC. This may add hours and hours of runtime per night which should be taken into account in your planning.
> 
> <SNIP>.


I have a generator. I'm not sure if it can power my central AC unit. I THINK it can, but it won't be able to do it and the two refrigerators. I also have a small window AC unit that I can put in one room and close the room off.

Recently I saw a 10 inch 12 volt fan for $20. IIRC the power supply was rated at 12 volt 1 amp.
So if you put 3-4 18650's in series, I guess you would get 3-4 hours run time.

How long would something like this run on a car battery? Not a deep cycle marine battery.

Someone also mentioned using inverters.
I wonder... how long would a 110v 20 inch box fan run on a car battery, hooked to an inverter?


----------



## creyc

Poppy said:


> I have a generator. I'm not sure if it can power my central AC unit. I THINK it can, but it won't be able to do it and the two refrigerators. I also have a small window AC unit that I can put in one room and close the room off.
> 
> Recently I saw a 10 inch 12 volt fan for $20. IIRC the power supply was rated at 12 volt 1 amp.
> So if you put 3-4 18650's in series, I guess you would get 3-4 hours run time.
> 
> How long would something like this run on a car battery? Not a deep cycle marine battery.
> 
> Someone also mentioned using inverters.
> I wonder... how long would a 110v 20 inch box fan run on a car battery, hooked to an inverter?



If you use an average size ~70-80AH car battery and don't let it go below around 50% (since it's not a marine/deep cycle), after inverter losses you should get around 2 hours runtime on a roughly 200 watt 20" box fan.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



creyc said:


> If you use an average size ~70-80AH car battery and don't let it go below around 50% (since it's not a marine/deep cycle), after inverter losses you should get around 2 hours runtime on a roughly 200 watt 20" box fan.



Oooo... ouch!!!
That is very disappointing. 

I just tested a 5.5 inch 12 volt oscillating fan that I bought for my camper. It is certainly much smaller, but it only draws 0.55 amps @ 12 volts. 
That converts to 6.6 watts, and with your numbers for an average car battery depleted to 50% (420 watt hours) I should get about 63 hours. 
Now, that's some useable run-time. Even a small fan coupled with misting or a damp towel can make miserable, bearable.


----------



## zespectre

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

the other problem with running car battery->inverter->standard house fan is that the fan is going to run a little slow and it may seriously shorten the motor life due to the wave form of the A/C coming from the inverter.

I've tested this sort of thing in the past and I have two fans that work fine and one that hums really loud and runs at about half speed (regular box fans). So on the whole I would say get the 12 volt stuff for emergencies.


----------



## Burgess

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Very interesting thread here !

lovecpf


Just wanna' state, as a point of reference . . . .


A standard Candle is said to produce about 13 Lumens.



( Gives us a baseline to work with here )


:candle:
_


----------



## Sub_Umbra

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

To figure out the best way to run a fan off a 12v battery one should study two groups: people with sailboats and people who use teardrop trailers for recreation.

These groups are fascinating to me because they have opted into very small systems, so their solutions to problems are interesting and often economical.

The teardrop trailer folks often use 12v fans from computers connected to deep cycle batteries, charge controllers, and small PV panels to move enough air to cool them while they sleep. Instead of using wasteful rheostats they tend to change the number of fans turned on to vary the output.

Check out these guys at the *Teardrops n Tiny Travel Trailers Forum:*

http://www.tnttt.com/

They have a subforum called *Electrical Secrets* that has helped me a great deal on small solar and more generalized electrical prepper projects. Their take on fans is interesteng.

That's where I got turned on to *HandyBob's Blog:*

http://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/

Opinions differ on HandyBob but I found his advice on PV to be very down to Earth and I ended up reading the whole site.

I've also looked into a *nautiical* solution to the fan problem that is very simple and is appropriate for some preppers. Some years ago I found a kit for people who live on sailboats. Since electricity as a scarce commodity on a sailboat this kit just consisted of three things that were very well matched to each other. There was a small PV panel with a built in charge controller, a 12v deep cycle battery (probably an AGM SLA) and a small fan with a very efficient 12v motor. The panel was just big enough to charge the battery during the daytime and the battery was of sufficient capacity to power the carefully chosen fan all night long so you could get some sleep.

Unfortunately I cannot source the above kit at this time. On the positive side, I think this type of fan project is far more doable today than it was years ago when I first looked into it. AGM SLA 12v batteries for wheelchairs, scooters and bicycles are everywhere and may be had at reasonable cost in many, many form factors and capacities. PV panels are cheaper, too.

If you bone up on the sites linked above you should be able to cobble something together without it costing an arm and a leg.


----------



## scout24

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

In response to the thread title: You can have too many lumens, but never too many batteries...  Your best friend for figuring out electrical draw is a Kill-A-Watt meter. Plugged in between your load and the power source, you get a running consumption rate. Invaluable when trying to size components in an emergency system. The amp rating stickers are not always accurate on appliances, etc. Sub- Cool link to the teardrop site! Thanks.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



scout24 said:


> In response to the thread title: You can have too many lumens, but never too many batteries...  Your best friend for figuring out electrical draw is a Kill-A-Watt meter. Plugged in between your load and the power source, you get a running consumption rate. Invaluable when trying to size components in an emergency system. The amp rating stickers are not always accurate on appliances, etc. Sub- Cool link to the teardrop site! Thanks.


The Kill A Watt is great especially because it's cheap, but if folks are interested in checking the draw on items like small refrigerators, medical respirators and such, I'd advise a step up to a Watts Up Pro.

The WUP can log and also measures maximum current draw, minimum current draw, max and min voltages and the duty cycle of the attached item among many other things. It can show maximum inrush current for a device's turn on (will tell you if a particular generator can provide enough power to turn on a device like a sump pump or a/c or refrigerator or electric motor from a fan or anything else).

You can use it to see how much power a Nitecore Intellicharger I4 draws when on 120v. In a power outage situation, it's more efficient to run items like the I4 off 12v power.


Max


----------



## Sub_Umbra

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I use a Doc Wattson and it works very well for comparing DC devices.


----------



## TMedina

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

On the subject of tea candles, you can buy the UCO "micro candle lantern" - comes with a wind shield and tip over safety. UCO also sells reflectors if you want to enhance the candle experience.

If you don't mind the open flame, put the tea candle in a shallow, polished stainless steel bowl. The curved, polished sides will act as a reflector and direct more of the light upward.


----------



## AMD64Blondie

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Anyone know where to find lithium (non-rechargeable) D batteries?

1.2 to 1.5V are what I'd need.(wondering if I could find a non-alkaline D battery for my Lightwave 4000.)


----------



## N8N

I don't know that they're made, but if you want to use them for long term storage/emergency use, you could always use the AA to D adapters and AA lithiums. I've ordered some but don't have them yet so I can't comment on construction/metal gauge

Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk 4


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I'd like to mention that power outages, are often accompanied by rain, and lot's of it.

I am amazed/shocked at how many people, I have met, who have sump pumps in their basement, and do not have a 12v battery back-up system. It's my understanding that most home-owner's insurance policies do not cover "ground water" damages. A person must obtain flood insurance as a separate policy, or as a rider. 

A 12v back-up system, (with a pump, switch, battery box, and alarm) can be had for about $150 and the battery for another $150, more or less.

I guess depending upon the demands on a person's sump pump in a "typical" storm, and what the demands are on the system for a "severe" storm a person might want to consider adding a 12v marine/deep cell battery, (or two hooked up in parallel), to his list, of battery needs. Two in parallel, may give the advantage, of allowing one to be removed to be charged, while the other is still protecting the premises. 

Again, although it wouldn't be ideal, a car alternator with jumper cables, can be used to charge a discharged battery.

I don't have a sump pump, and thankfully, don't need one, but just for giggles, I picked up a 12v bilge pump at walmart for less than $25. I found that it'll push water about 7 feet high. Not quite high enough to get it out of my basement (I'd have to use a larger one my dad gave me), BUT, it could make it in two lifts. If I put a 25-30 gallon container on a bench or table, it could make the 4 foot lift, and then from there make a second lift up and out the window.

I'm sure that we could come up with a number of reasons to have a fully charged deep cell marine battery in reserve.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> I'd like to mention that power outages, are often accompanied by rain, and lot's of it.
> 
> I am amazed/shocked at how many people, I have met, who have sump pumps in their basement, and do not have a 12v battery back-up system. It's my understanding that most home-owner's insurance policies do not cover "ground water" damages. A person must obtain flood insurance as a separate policy, or as a rider.
> 
> A 12v back-up system, (with a pump, switch, battery box, and alarm) can be had for about $150 and the battery for another $150, more or less.
> 
> I guess depending upon the demands on a person's sump pump in a "typical" storm, and what the demands are on the system for a "severe" storm a person might want to consider adding a 12v marine/deep cell battery, (or two hooked up in parallel), to his list, of battery needs. Two in parallel, may give the advantage, of allowing one to be removed to be charged, while the other is still protecting the premises.
> 
> Again, although it wouldn't be ideal, a car alternator with jumper cables, can be used to charge a discharged battery.
> 
> I don't have a sump pump, and thankfully, don't need one, but just for giggles, I picked up a 12v bilge pump at walmart for less than $25. I found that it'll push water about 7 feet high. Not quite high enough to get it out of my basement (I'd have to use a larger one my dad gave me), BUT, it could make it in two lifts. If I put a 25-30 gallon container on a bench or table, it could make the 4 foot lift, and then from there make a second lift up and out the window.
> 
> I'm sure that we could come up with a number of reasons to have a fully charged deep cell marine battery in reserve.


One of those small Honda or Yamaha generators can be invaluable. They're much quieter than typical gennies which is a good thing because in an extended outage, the desperately unprepared will be looking to steal from the more well prepared.


Max


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



bluemax_1 said:


> One of those small Honda or Yamaha generators can be invaluable. They're much quieter than typical gennies which is a good thing because in an extended outage, the desperately unprepared will be looking to steal from the more well prepared.
> 
> 
> Max



Yes, those inverter generators are VERY quiet. They are typically lower output generators, at 1000-2000 watts. Some can be hooked together for a higher combined output. 
They are small enough, and light enough, that someone could feasibly pull up in a car, grab it, run across your lawn, and get away before you realize that your lights went back off. So if you get one, IMO you definitely want to chain or cable it to something (like maybe your left leg  ) 

Cabella's was selling some 3,500 watt "Champion" generators. A neighbor of mine had one during Sandy, and it was surprisingly quiet. If I recall correctly, I read that they are yamaha clones.

I don't think that the larger honda (over 5,000) generators are much more quiet than their competitors. My 5K Coleman generator is loud enough that I had to put it inside it's own fan ventilated, insulated box. I chained it to a fifty pound concrete footing.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Last year, after Sandy, I went to a local snow-blower, lawnmower, repair shop to see if I could buy a better muffler for my noisy generator. It seems that much of the noise is from the engine itself, not necessarily from the exhaust. At any rate, he mentioned that another local shop does a good amount of business, rebuilding carburetors for generators, including hondas, yamahas, and their clones. He said the carbs don't do too well with 10% ethanol. He suggested turning the fuel off, and running the carb dry (running the engine until it runs out of gas). He said that most people don't do that.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> Last year, after Sandy, I went to a local snow-blower, lawnmower, repair shop to see if I could buy a better muffler for my noisy generator. It seems that much of the noise is from the engine itself, not necessarily from the exhaust. At any rate, he mentioned that another local shop does a good amount of business, rebuilding carburetors for generators, including hondas, yamahas, and their clones. He said the carbs don't do too well with 10% ethanol. He suggested turning the fuel off, and running the carb dry (running the engine until it runs out of gas). He said that most people don't do that.


Yes, before storage, that is the correct practice, otherwise, as the remaining gas evaporates over time, the additives left behind leave a gummy residue that will mess things up.

To get this back on track, one of these small Honda/Yamaha inverter gennies can charge a 12v battery much more efficiently (using less gasoline) than a typical vehicle engine. The 12v battery can then be used to charge a lot of batteries before it needs recharging. This is a better approach than using the running gennie to charge the flashlight batteries as using a 12v vehicular battery (especially a deep cycle type) will allow a lot of silent covert charging while the gennie is only run for shorter periods occasionally (unless you need it to run a sump pump or refrigerator or medical equipment.

Between my vehicle with 12v adapters and inverters, solar, plus a gennie, keeping lights running isn't going to be one of my main concerns.



Max


----------



## cland72

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Let me do some math:

My G2 equipped with M61LLL 219 will run for 15 hours until the output drops. A box of 72 Surefire primaries will give me 36*15=540 hours, or 22.5 days, of straight runtime.

Not bad...


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

*Heating:*

*Pellet stove:*
I don't have a pellet stove, but took a look at them and it seems that they require blowers, and a mechanism to automatically feed them. One unit that I looked at stated that it required less than four 100 watt bulbs to run. *It could also run on batteries*. I don't really have any additional information. Would anyone like to expand on this?

*Natural Gas Steam heat:*
I had two homes with natural gas steam heat. They didn't require a circulator pump, but they did require electricity to keep the gas valve open. I assume that different systems may run on different voltages, but it just so happens that both of mine used a step down transformer to convert 110 volts to 12 volts. I never had to do so, but *I always imagined that if I needed to, I could power the thermostat, and gas valve with a car battery*. I have no idea what the demands on the battery would be. Therefore I have no idea, how long it would last.

*Natural Gas Forced Air:*
During Sandy, generators were unavailable. My dentist's son (an electrician) installed an inverter to power their furnace and its blower. I am pretty sure that they had to have the car/truck running when they had the heat on. I guess it would be one of those things... heat up the house, turn it off... heat up the house, turn it off. 

*Oil heat:*
I have no idea


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

^
You might want to start a separate emergency/extended power outage preparedness thread as this is definitely getting off topic.


Max


----------



## reppans

*Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I picked up a Kifaru folding/backpacking wood burning stove (and tent for camping/BOB) for a little emergency heat... enough for heating a room, just need to fashion a chimney seal for a window.


----------



## Launch Mini

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Our cabin has no electricity. It is rustic. We do have a propane light, propane fridge and 12V for lighting & for the water pump.
When we use it in the fall/winter, it gets dark early, so probably similar situation to a power outage.
We only light the room we are in. Evening that is the living room/kitchen. My SPY on level 3 is enough to give us light, so we can walk around, get things, without knocking stuff over. Each have a headlamp for reading.
When playing cards at night, the SPY is aimed at the table, and our headlights on low illuminate our cards etc. 
For reading, headlights are the cats pajama's ( assuming the ipad is dead and we are using an old fashioned book).
Early to bed also is a factor.
We don't use the propane light that much, and rarely use the 12V lights as we save the battery for water ( flushing, bathing, dishes).
You can get by on not very much light at all, and still be very comfortable.
We also provide any quests with a cheap light so they can find their way around.

As for charging stuff, we do have a generator that we fire up every other day. Recharge the cabin main batteries, ipads, etc.


----------



## scout24

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Poppy- I have run my Quadrafire Castille pellet stove off of an Optima marine battery and a 400w inverter. 6 hours was no problem, jumper cables to my locked running car's battery for a couple hours was enough to top it back off. Reppans- Northern Tool & Equipment (Used to be Northern Hydraulics) catalog/ website sells through-the-wall chimney kits for wood and pellet stoves. My plan involves opening a window and fitting a pre-built section of "wall" in the opening with their collar/sleeve installed. Run some pipe, you're good to go.  Cland- That Malkoff M61LLL is awesome. Mine lives in a G2.


----------



## reppans

Thanks Scout, but no permanent fixtures for me... I'm also going through a window and have some extra Kifaru fireproof fiberglass(?) fabric for the chimney cover. Basement is the bug-in room - never seems to get colder than 50 or warmer than 70 year-round.


----------



## Poppy

Apparently there can be significant differences in 6 volt spring top lantern batteries. Wikipedia lists their capacity ranging from 12ah-26Ah.

Not only can there be a difference in battery chemistry, but the size of the cells within can be different. Some are composed of 4xD cells, and others of 4x F cells. D cells are 60mm high, and F cells 86mm high.
Here is a discussion http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?52407-Capacity-of-6-volt-lantern-batteries

Rayovac lists the two different batteries on their site, and sells them for the same price!
http://www.rayovac.com/Products/Lantern-Batteries/6-Volt-Spring-Terminals-Alkaline-F-Cell.aspx
http://www.rayovac.com/Products/Lantern-Batteries/6-Volt-Spring-Terminals-Alkaline-D-Cell.aspx


----------



## Poppy

*Automatic ON Emergency lighting:*

In my opinion, this is something that is Extremely important, especially for two classes of people; the young, and the old.

When the lights suddenly go out, children can be startled, and frightened. 
Let's face it, MOST people do not carry a flashlight on their person at ALL times.
Anyone could trip and fall, in the dark, while going to get their flashlight, or lantern. This can be hazardous for anyone, but for a senior citizen, it can be life threatening.

Having a couple of power failure lights that come on automatically can therefore be a life saving device, or in the least calm the children while you set the house up with additional lighting.

Here are a couple of CPF threads that discuss different styles/types:

This one is primarily focused on plug into an outlet, auto-on flashlights.

This one is primarily focused on commercial emergency lighting

*How many???*
Which rooms?
I think ALL rooms that are normally occupied during wakeful hours, should be lit directly, or indirectly (from another room that is lit). For example, I have a commercial unit that I modified to use one of those 35 lumen, flying saucer looking, tent lights, instead of the two 7w bulbs. It is sitting on top of the entertainment unit in the living room in a ceiling bounced position. It will light the living room, entrance foyer, dining room, the stairs to the bedrooms, and to a lesser extent, the kitchen and family room. With the modification it'll run for about 20 hours instead of the 90 minutes using the incans.

I think there should be at least one, auto-on emergency light, on each floor, including the basement.

I think that it is a good idea to have enough of them, strategically located, so that each room of the house gets SOME light.

So in my house I have:
1. the centrally located light mentioned above.
2. a plug in flashlight type in the family room, and garage
3. a plug in type in the central bathroom upstairs
4. a centrally located modified commercial unit in the basement
5. a plug in type in the basement laundry room (not really necessary)

With these lights, only the bedrooms will be in total darkness, unless the doors are open.


----------



## bluemax_1

Very good points.

It's the reason I now carry a light on me at all times even in the house. Had a blackout and even though I had many lights scattered through the house and new where each one was, none were in arms reach. In the few steps it took to reach the closest light, I stubbed my toe on something I wasn't expecting to be there on the ground.

I thought it was pretty stupid to have so many lights available during a blackout and STILL manage to injure myself (my pride more than any physical damage) in an unexpected blackout, so I began carrying a flashlight on me in the house as well (I always have several lights on me when leaving the house).


Max


----------



## cland72

I have one of these in my bedroom. Came in handy when the power went out in the middle of the night about 3 weeks ago. Not a great light by any means, but at least indicated we had lost power without me having to get out of bed and try a light switch.

My U2 lit my way when I got up to check things out.

http://www.energizer.com/flashlights-lighting/flashlight/Pages/compact-rechargeable-led-light.aspx


----------



## bandits1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Echo63 said:


> My Ryobi one+ area light will do "up to 16hrs" on the big batteries, of which I have 4.
> I think it does 5-6 hours in high, which is still plenty for a night, and the light has plenty of output to play a board game or read.


How is the quality of light from that Ryobi Workshop Light? I've read it's a little on the bluish side, but those comments could have been made by someone whose last lantern was fueled by kerosine. So, white or slightly bluish?

I recently bought a Ryobi ONE hybrid string trimmer and before I invest more into their ONE line, I'd like to know how their other products perform, starting with the most practical: an area lantern.


----------



## Gatsby

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I live in hurricane territory - not prime strike zone but still we've had enough sweep through that the risk, along with ice storms, for power outages is my most likely and most frequent disaster situation. I lived in eastern NC for a number of years where hurricanes were a very real and realized threat. 

To level set I have a small generator and fuel supply. It is sufficient to keep the refrigerators running every few hours or so to prevent loss of food. It can run a small heater as well if necessary for a period of time. I can also, if needed, charge batteries but that is not something I rely on - that is a last ditch issue.

As far as lighting goes - my time spent out in the woods backpacking and camping with my son has demonstrated how little light I need most of the time so my lumen expectations are probably pretty low by comparison.

I don't have everyone on one battery type - probably should but have made do with some lights I already have for example to meet certain needs. Kids both have Petzl headlamps - my sons is always in good shape due to backpacking/camping. Daughter and son both also have small AA flashlights. My wife will use whatever I hand to her. So the kids trips to bathroom etc.. are with their lights.

For room lighting I have three maglites with LED bulbs installed - two with regular Mag upgrades, one with the Niteyze PR bulb that runs forever (30 hours I think). All are sufficient to light up a room more than sufficiently -and are used actually somewhat sparingly when a lot of light is needed. I keep 8 fresh D cells to backup these lights (2 - 3D lights; 1 - 2D light) 

I have two headlamps which get used on the lowest setting mostly - a Zebralight H30w for me and a Surefire Minimus for the wife (she can run the UI on the Surefire no problem!). They'll last for some time on low - and I have a couple spare batteries for both as backups. Another pack of AA and AAA's for kids lights and headlamps.

My primary outage light is a modded HDS era Novatac 120P. Has a trit bezel so I can find it and it runs for lots and lots of hours on low which is more than enough light to move around with dark adjusted eyes. Days straight on low. I think it is literally 40 days on a primary - a bit less on an RCR I suppose but if I need more than that I suppose I better have some zombie plans ready to execute 

As you can tell - my strategy is really based around more very low level lights - each person having one - than a few high lumen lights. I keep a few 18650 lights around in case I need to inspect parts of the house or really light up the back yard or something - but they are truly spot use lights and not primary lights.


----------



## Gatsby

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

As an aside - it is interesting how my lights change a bit when the emphasis shifts to the lowest light I need and efficiency. The Novatac 120P does have a K2 TVOD in it - so on high it is probably around 180 or so lumens (compared to stock 120) - but the selection of levels, trit bezel and ridiculous runtimes on lower levels make it still a great all around emergency, camping and sometimes EDC light despite being, at this point, gosh 5-6 years old maybe? I have a couple newer and nicer lights - but that 120P still gets a quick reach for certain scenarios... 

It may also be comfort - I had an Arc4 back in the day - then used a cracked HDS B60 for years when the Arc4 went on the fritz. Replaced that with an 85P and then the 120P - and haven't had a reason to upgrade from the 120 to the newer HDS generations really. So the UI is like an old friend - the feel - ease of use, etc... also matter in an emergency setting. It is nice to not be thinking "Is this the light that uses x versus y clicks?"

I also have a Milky light that I use as a sometimes EDC that, in mizer mode, really is a great emergency light.


----------



## yearnslow

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

No problems here.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



yearnslow said:


> No problems here.



Here you go yearnslow


----------



## FourBin Labs

I work part time IT part time sales at my job. The IT parts allows me any old electronics that we no longer use. My boss gives me any old UPS unit that the battery goes out in. The best part of this, is that we are a tractor dealership, we sell batteries and recycle the cores. Any time i need a battery, I just start testing the cores that come in till I find a marginal one. It might not start a 6 cyl diesel tractor anymore, but it's still way more than a brand new UPS battery would supply (I get pretty excited when an 8D battery shows up).

The best part, it's all free. Any time a battery get's weak, I just bring it back to work and swap it out for one of the newer cores. I have some batteries that have been in use for a couple years, and still last a long time. everything I have in my bedroom will run for a couple hours after the power goes out. The only problem... I need to take some of the UPS units apart and disable the beepers. I have 4 units in my bedroom alone and you can't actually sleep with them going off.

Flashlight wise, I've even managed to get around in the dark with the 1 lumen moonlight mode on my light. It's plenty to get up and use the bathroom if you have been sleeping and your eyes and well adjusted to the dark. This thread has gotten me thinking about looking for an 18650 12v charger though. My trucks got an Odyssey AGM in it, so I wouldn't think twice about charging all of my 18650's in there during an outage.


----------



## yearnslow

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Many thanks. 


Poppy said:


> Here you go yearnslow


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



yearnslow said:


> Many thanks.



LOL... that looks like it could get you through ledmitter_nli's 67 days of night
Can you give a little detail on that setup, and what it supplies?


----------



## yearnslow

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> LOL... that looks like it could get you through ledmitter_nli's 67 days of night
> Can you give a little detail on that setup, and what it supplies?



Well, obviously it's a solar system. We are completely off-grid here. 16, 6v batteries linked as a 48v system, at 30amps, which is capable of delivering 3000w. Each battery is capable of 350+ ah. The panels generate approx.1900w per hour in full sunlight, that is converted to AC with a grid inverter to come to the house (less resistance in the wires with AC), on reaching the house it is converted back to DC for the batteries, the remainder being sent to the house as 240v AC at 13 amps. At night, obviously the inverter converts DC battery power to AC power. It runs our house, including fridges, freezers, lights, washing machine, electric iron, toaster etc etc. At present usage, we could last ten days approx. without any sunshine, and carry on normally. If for some bizzare reason we had to cut everything out except essentials, it may very well run to 67 nights. we will never know though, unless there's a natural disaster that blocks out the sun, which is unlikely here.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I'm curious, how many square feet of solar collectors do you need to supply a system like that?


----------



## Echo63

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



bandits1 said:


> How is the quality of light from that Ryobi Workshop Light? I've read it's a little on the bluish side, but those comments could have been made by someone whose last lantern was fueled by kerosine. So, white or slightly bluish?
> 
> I recently bought a Ryobi ONE hybrid string trimmer and before I invest more into their ONE line, I'd like to know how their other products perform, starting with the most practical: an area lantern.


It's on the bluer end of "cool white" but not too bad, but it's also cheap (providing you have the batteries and charger) and looks pretty easy to mod (4 screws to take off the top, 2 screws and 2 soldered wires to get the LED out) 
I haven't modded mine yet, it is something I want to do though (with a nice neutral or warm white LED)

I will do some pictures and a review when I get a chance, it might be a while though.

And the 35w Xenon light is worth getting too - lots and lots of light, I ran mine for 6 hours a day for about 3 days straight when I was doing the tiles at my house (taking the old tiles up and getting the glue off the floor) literally running batteries full to empty, then throwing them back on the charger and doing it again (I have 6 battery's)

From what I have seen of the ONE+ line, the tools are well made, and work pretty well, although most are smaller than a mains powered unit,

I have the ;
Circular saw (good for pine, may struggle a bit with hardwoods when cutting thick pieces)
Jigsaw 
Mitre Saw 
Planer (good, but not really super precise - worked ok when I used it to trim some doors though)
Reciprocating saw
Drill
impact driver (great for driving screws, I rarely use a proper screwdriver anymore)
Impact wrench (1/2" drive, mine lives in the car - I can do a 4 wheel rotation (6tyre changes) in 15 mins, using it)
Area light 
Xenon spotlight (has an odd beam colour as it warms up, once warm (a minute or so) its much better, but still has artifacts, throws well, and puts out a lot of light)
chainsaw (actually pretty useless, the reciprocating saw with a long wood blade is better, also the chain lube system just plain sucks)
hedge trimmer (works well, haven't had any issues, except on hard dried twigs that we're up towards the max thickness it could fit in the blades.
Angle grinder (great, but chews through batteries very quickly - 8-10 mins or so)
both sanders (broke the triangle one, but it was caked with spakfilla dust, and it was run till it was too hot to hold a few times, the circular one is good so far, but pretty new to me)
fan (great for blowing away dust, or keeping you cool, runs for ages)
multitool (handy, used mine a lot with a tungsten carbide blade for cutting up grout on the old tiles)

6 bay charger (only charges one battery at a time, but automatically switches to the next pack when it's full)
single bay charger (came with the drill) (this one will cook the batteries if you leave them on it, take them off when they are charged)
12v charger (great, except it's lighter plug doesn't play nice with my vehicles sockets, I will eventually change it for an Anderson plug, when I mount it to the cargo barrier)
And maybe a few others I have forgotten


----------



## Jash

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

100 lumens is plenty to light a room using ceiling bounce. Given the supply of AA and D cells in my kit, I'd guess I could keep a couple of rooms lit up for 2-4 hours a night for perhaps a year or so. That's if I couldn't recharge any eneloops.

5-7 days you'd simply need a couple of quarks (regular for tail standing) and a couple of eight packs of lithium cells.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I hope this is pretty accurate. It seems that there is a geometric relationship to lumen output, and battery demand. I put this list together based on manufacturer claims (not mentioning battery capacity) and Selfbuilt's time graphs for a 2200 mAh 18650 battery for the same flashlight, I calculate that these Lumen/Time rates are what can be expected from XML emitter, (note: XM-L2's will give 20% more lumens for the same amount of time) powered by a 18650 battery.

____________________________________________
From a 2400 mAh 18650 battery

Firefly: 0.09lumen. 695 hours.
low: 30 lumen: 65 hours.
mid: 95 lumen: 9 hours. 
max: 705 lumen: 72 minutes

____________________________________________
From a 3400 mAh battery one might expect:

Firefly: 0.09lumen. 984 hours.
low: 30 lumen: 92 hours.
mid: 95 lumen: 12.7 hours. 
max: 705 lumen: 102 minutes


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I'm not too familiar with AA lights.
Would someone please list what one could expect in run-times for various chemistries, at various lumens?
Thanks,
Poppy


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

You can't assign a runtime to an emitter; different drivers and configs will give varying levels of efficiency and thus different runtimes. Otherwise all flashlights of similar battery type would have the same runtime.


----------



## smokinbasser

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I have two 6v lanterns and approx 70 spare batteries from AAA,AA, D 123, CR2. 1 hand crank combo light radio. I am not about to take an inventory of working flashlights but enough for most situations short of an EMP. But I do have quite a few emergency candles for just in case. 60 years of scouting plus 10 years military reduces surprise outages.


----------



## reppans

Poppy said:


> I'm not too familiar with AA lights.
> Would someone please list what one could expect in run-times for various chemistries, at various lumens?
> Thanks,
> Poppy



Yeah sure... I'm accumulating a decent selection AAs, have looked into the numbers for sometime, and have run a number of side-by-side tests with a light meter and stop watch, including trying to reconcile to Selfbuilt's numbers. 

First a couple of caveats. I use a conservative Foursevens/Eagletac lumen scale (QAAX/D25A) to calibrate my light meter. This closely matches ti-force's calibration who claims:

"My sphere's have been calibrated using lights that were measured in a professional lab sphere, so my lumen results are very accurate."

We are in the range of 20-25% more conservative than Selfbuilt's lumen scale. SB doesn't claim accurate lumen estimates, just consistent relative comparisons, with which I completely agree. 

Next, I'll go to 50% output in a runtime test, not 10% as allowed under ANSI - same as SB. 

OK, all that said, my general smell test for an efficient AA is something in the 150-200 lumen-hour range per 2000 mah Eneloop (ie, 150 lms for 1 hr, 3 lms for 50 hrs for a 1xAA) with the highest and lowest modes a bit less efficient than the middle modes. Multi-cell formats run more efficiently since they operate closer the the Vf of the LED and require less from the boost driver. I think my D40A was around 210 lm-hrs (per AA), the most efficient light I have, but it's also my only 4xAA (sub-lumen fan).

So take a look at some examples. The SC52 and LD12 both claim ~ 300 lumen-hrs across most of their modes (to be fair, the LD12 is really 240 lm-hrs adjusted for a 2000 mah batt, in the fine print) while the Quark AAX (interpolated from the 2AAX) and D25A-X spec below 200 lm-hrs. Well, I have run the SC52, QAAX, and D25A side by side (don't have the LD12, but SB just reviewed it) and I find the three about to even on a lumen-hr basis. 

On max the SC52 was 25% brighter than the QAAX throughout, but also petered out about that much faster. The SC52 108 lm mode metered equal to the D25A 75 lm mode and both hit 50% at 2.5 hrs (same as what SB got for the SC52)... But specs wise (108lms x 3hrs)/(75lms x 2.5hrs) = 1.73, or ZL claims are 73% higher than ET for the same performance. The SC52 claims 2-3x the runtime/efficiency of the QAAX on the same 0.3 and 3 lumen modes.... Well this is how... clicky (the Quark lumen specs are accurate). My glance of SBs review of the LD12 seem to indicated it falls similarly short of its output/runtime spec claims, adjusted for a 2000 mah battery (if SB finds the LD12 specs are 15% understated, I'll find it 10% overstated). 

On the different battery chemistries, just compare watt-hrs (V x Mah) of energy and extrapolate (use HKJs capacity tests if you really want to be anal). Well except for Alkalines of course which capacities vary widely on load.. I personally consider them a wash though - worst performance on highest modes, but the best performance on lowest modes. 

So bottom line is that I find that the top 1xAA lights of these 4 manufacturers to be very close in terms of lumen-hrs of efficiency, indistinguishable without equipment really, but the manufacturer claims in the specs sheets differ by up to a factor of 2x. That just pisses me off... (Sorry for the long rant).


----------



## Poppy

reppans said:


> Yeah sure... I'm accumulating a decent selection AAs, have looked into the numbers for sometime, and have run a number of side-by-side tests with a light meter and stop watch, including trying to reconcile to Selfbuilt's numbers.
> 
> <SNIP>
> Next, *I'll go to 50% output in a runtime test, not 10% as allowed under ANSI - same as SB. *
> 
> OK, all that said, my general smell test for an efficient AA is something in the 150-200 lumen-hour range per 2000 mah Eneloop (ie, 150 lms for 1 hr, 3 lms for 50 hrs for a 1xAA) with the highest and lowest modes a bit less efficient than the middle modes. <BIG SNIP>.



Thanks reppans!
You did a great job! 

It's a shame that ANSI doesn't include a 50% runtime test and require that it be reported.
If I want/need 100 lumens for a job, 50 lumens MIGHT be sufficient, 10 lumens, certainly would NOT. Whatever time it takes to run down from 50-10 is useless time (when the light would not be capable of doing the job it was bought for.)

How long would a single AA power a light at 15-25 lumens?


----------



## Biker Bear

Interesting thread! As I live alone, I'm not really in a position to comment on the original proposition of a 4-person family, but I have a few points that might be worthy of note. As preface, let me state that I love to tinker, and I do realize most of these are more "last resort" than first-line for most people. First-line for me is going to be my AA/14500/123 EDC lights, with my bright 18650 light held in reserve for when I need lots of lumens. Given my stocks of primary and rechargeable cells - I'm going to have all the light I need for any reasonably foreseeable period of electrical grid failure.

I have one of those 3-AA disc tent lanterns with 48 LEDs - they work as well turned upwards as a bounce light as they do the other way hanging from the top of a tent. I have had a thought - is it more efficient (given a common matte-white ceiling) to bounce a lower intensity of light off a wider area, as with the disc lantern, or a higher intensity in a smaller area? If one is using a fairly tight beam - might it improve the effect noticeably to tape a piece of bright white paper on the ceiling at the center of the beam?

I've also got some cheap LED flashlights that were designed to use 3 AAA's in a carrier, but which I created a spacer for so they can use 18500 LiFePO4 cells. (These are great lending flashlights because most people have no idea what to do but return it when the battery runs down....)

I posted some years ago about a trail-marker light I'd come up with based on the LED "throwie" - CR2032 coin cell, white LED, "bingo chips" as insulators, all held together with a binder clip. Since I've got the parts, I can crank out a lot of these and they'll produce a decent amount of light (to dark-adapted eyes, at least) for a week, running 24/7. Great for places like the bathroom. And larger coin cells (e.g., CR2450) will of course run longer, though they're less cost-efficient. As I live in an apartment building - I'd be handing these out to neighbors as a way to (hopefully) keep them from using candles or the like to reduce the previously discussed fire risk. There's all sorts of ways to put these things where you want them - magnets, pushpins, wedging the binder clip handles into crevices, etc. 

I've got spare flat lithium cells from deceased cell phones and such; with the right wires, one of those can sub for a pair of AA's in one of those two-AA phone booster units; if you too have cells that won't fit in your current device, this is a way to make the power they hold useful. (Do note that this might over-discharge them if you aren't paying close attention as the boosters are generally designed to work with alkalines or NiMH cells, so this isn't something to do with a lithium ion cell that's more useful to you.) And if you've got alkaline D-Cells that are depleted beyond the point some other device can use them, you could run 3-4 of them in series into a booster that normally takes 2 AAs and get a little more use out of them. I attach wires with alligator clips to the contacts in the booster, and from there you've got all kinds of options to feed it power. The booster units I use include two 5mm LEDs and I made brighter LED attachments for them; obviously they can also power smartphones and other such devices in a grid outage.


----------



## Sub_Umbra

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I've got a couple of 1D vampires that Wayne at EL made for me after Katrina. If I tail stand one with a fresh alky in the bathroom it'll light the whole room *24 hours a day for a week.* 

They have P4 emittters from 2006 and Micropucks. Even though they are a bit long in the tooth they are great to have in extended grid down events. Since I had them built we have had two major outages -- one for five days and one for two weeks. They performed very well.

When we first got them I did an experiment. I took a D cell from a three cell set that was so dead that they would not even make the filament glow in a M/\G light and slipped it into one of my EL 1Ds. Each 'dead' cell produced *hours* and *hours* of very usable white light.

Of course one could build even better 1D lights for grid down events with the emitters available today. Highly Recommended.


----------



## Poppy

Biker Bear said:


> I posted some years ago about a trail-marker light I'd come up with based on the LED "throwie" - CR2032 coin cell, white LED.



Biker Bear,
Your Trail Marker lights are great little MacGyver-isms!

I have about 20 rare earth neodymium magnets stuck to the side of my tool chest. They are great for MacGyver-ing batteries together into series and connecting alligator clipped jumper wires to them to make "on the fly" battery packs/adapters.

During one power outage, I used my 12V cordless drill battery to power my 8C radio. The kids drained the batteries, and used up my spares.


----------



## Poppy

Biker Bear said:


> I posted some years ago about a trail-marker light I'd come up with based on the LED "throwie" - CR2032 coin cell, white LED.



Biker Bear,
Your Trail Marker lights are great little MacGyver-isms!

I have about 20 rare earth neodymium magnets stuck to the side of my tool chest. They are great for MacGyver-ing batteries together into series and connecting alligator clipped jumper wires to them to make "on the fly" battery packs/adapters.

During one power outage, I used my 12V cordless drill battery to power my 8C radio. The kids drained the batteries, and used up my spares.


----------



## Biker Bear

Poppy said:


> Biker Bear,
> Your Trail Marker lights are great little MacGyver-isms!



Thank you - though I'm not sure I'd have come up with them without the LED "throwie" to inspire me into thinking about a more easily reusable version. I dislike being wasteful and while the little plastic zip-bags eventually need to be replaced and the bingo chips - being rather brittle - don't last forever, I do like being able to re-use them at least a few times.



> I have about 20 rare earth neodymium magnets stuck to the side of my tool chest. They are great for MacGyver-ing batteries together into series and connecting alligator clipped jumper wires to them to make "on the fly" battery packs/adapters.



Oh, yes - I do this too. It's what I was thinking of when I remarked earlier in the thread about chaining together depleted D-Cells, but I failed to be clear about it. (Of course, one can also use masking tape or the like, but the magnets are easier.) For some kinds of interconnects, "micrograbber" jumper wires work better than alligator clips. Having both is a nice convenience.



> During one power outage, I used my 12V cordless drill battery to power my 8C radio. The kids drained the batteries, and used up my spares.



Oops. Dare I presume that led to Having A Talk?


----------



## Treeguy

Living in rural Quebec, where the weather can be fierce, fiercely cold, and the power outages measured in days and weeks, I play by the KISS principle. Don’t be fancy – just be prepared.

For me, that means AA is best. A have several Rayovac Indestructable AA lights - 100 lumens High, 18 Low - and a drawer full of brand new batteries. Simple, cheap, and effective. With several sets of batteries for each light, I’m good for hundreds of hours. The only change I might make this year is to buy lithium batteries for the flashlight I keep in my tool bag. I work outdoors doing emergency tree removals after storms, and if it’s -20 outside, so is my flashlight. They say lithium batteries are best for the cold, so I’ll keep them in my work light from now on.

At all times I keep: a small generator to run electric heaters, full, with spare fuel, and gas stabilizer in both; propane bottles (1lb and 20lb) to cook with and for the lantern; a ridiculously useful USB battery good to charge an iPhone several times; food that is fast to cook and has lots of protein; a good attitude. 

It doesn’t have to cost a lot to be prepared. And having lived and worked through major storms and power outages, I know that keeping it simple, cheap, and effective is the way to go. When things get fuzzy, be Jed Clampett, not Buzz Lightyear. That’s my two-cents.


----------



## mongogeek

Well, I'm a big fan of 18650 batteries (12x or 15x), so I have several throwers and several lanterns. The lanterns range from the cheap walmart brands (2x) to a nice Kelty lantern (1x), all take D batteries, but I've decided to build custom 18650 packs that I can drive the laterns with. So, I can swap out packs when needed, recharge them and store them for later. Call me a prepper, but rarely do I have to use these for actual power outages. I'm in the Atlanta, GA area where we almost never have power outages.

Currently playing with a 15 watt solar cell and some solar recharging configurations. If it works out, then I'll be all set.


----------



## bluemax_1

Well whaddya know... I was out of town for the last few days, heard about the storm that rolled through the Midwest. Just got back home (MI) and the power's out. Neighbor's tree took out the power line.

And Lo and Behold, what's waiting for me in my mailbox? My pre-order Zebralight H52W. That's pretty good timing. Using it right now while making lunch on my Esbit alcohol stove cookset. I've got plenty of AA's, NiMH, Lithium and LiIon, plus the TM26, G25C2-mkII, quite a few charged 18650's, a GoalZero Sherpa 50 power pack (plus a Nomad 27 solar cell), that single 18650 charger/adapter that allows me to use an 18650 cell to power a USB port to charge the phone etc.

It's 49f in the house which isn't too bad, plus I have lots of thermal cold weather gear, and if I need to, a forced air propane heater that I can run off an inverter hooked up directly to the truck's battery.

Doubt I'll need most of it though, as I just spoke to a Consumers Energy guy and he said they'd try to get the power back on if not by tonight, then by tomorrow. Nowhere as inconvenient as 3 years ago when the ice storm hit in February. After several days without power, the house got cold enough that I worried about the pipes freezing even with all the taps trickling.


Max


----------



## reppans

bluemax_1 said:


> ....the house got cold enough that I worried about the pipes freezing even with all the taps trickling.



This is something to worry about. We've had three 5-day long outages in the past 4 yrs and one in the winter. I had a drain valve installed in the basement at the low point of our water system and so can pretty much clear the pipes in a long outage. Don't forget to keep a few gallons of RV anti-freeze to sprinkle around the various sink/tub/toilet P-traps. 

As a last resort, my basement would make a good retreat.... Never seems to get above 75 or below 50 down there, no matter what the weather and I have a wood burning backpacking stove which could take the edge off the cold (run the chimney out a window). Plants and kids pets are another matter.


----------



## bluemax_1

reppans said:


> This is something to worry about. We've had three 5-day long outages in the past 4 yrs and one in the winter. I had a drain valve installed in the basement at the low point of our water system and so can pretty much clear the pipes in a long outage. Don't forget to keep a few gallons of RV anti-freeze to sprinkle around the various sink/tub/toilet P-traps. As a last resort, my basement would make a good retreat.... Never seems to get above 75 or below 50 down there, no matter what the weather and I have a wood burning backpacking stove which could take the edge off the cold (run the chimney out a window). Plants and kids pets are another matter.


Yes, I recall your post mentioning the drain valve. It's definitely a good idea.Max


----------



## Poppy

Hi Max,
I see that your power is out, but you still have internet. :thumbsup:

Please explain.


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> I see that your power is out, but you still have internet. :thumbsup:
> 
> Please explain.



It's CPF, we know how to prepare; there were guys here live updating from Manhattan during Hurricane Sandy..


----------



## reppans

Cellular + iPad & iPhone. RV generator for laptop (nightly DVD movies) and iPad and keeping fridges from spoiling. Solar > AA Eneloops > iPhone, if in a pinch.


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> Hi Max,
> I see that your power is out, but you still have internet. :thumbsup:
> 
> Please explain.



Yep, we're definitely a bunch of tech junkies and preparedness nuts here. No CPF'er has to worry about available light in power outages and some of us have even more prep.

As for the internet, my phone is still getting reception and I have numerous ways to power and recharge it, from the vehicles, to my Sherpa 50 power pack, the GoalZero Nomad 27 solar panel (charges the Sherpa 50 and can directly power a USB port with even overcast sunlight). I also have one of those single 18650 charger/adapters that you can get at FastTech for $8 that can recharge a single 18650 from a USB port AND has a built-in USB port of its own, allowing me to use any 18650 to power/recharge USB devices. Plus, there's the generator.

Truth is though, I've been powering/recharging the phone with my winter jacket (yep, tech geek). It's the Columbia Electro Interchange. Has 2 batteries that charge off USB and power the jacket's heating elements. The 2 batteries each have USB input AND output ports, so charged batteries can be used to power the jacket OR power USB devices. The jacket has actually been recalled due to a potential short circuit in some of them, but aside from trying it once (no, it doesn't feel like an electric blanket/heating pad, it just creates a mellow warmth), I don't use the powered heat (the jacket itself is very warm), but I do love the emergency backup power convenience.


Max


----------



## markr6

I could be shooting myself in the foot here, but I never worry about AA availability around home. When I think of the number of stores that sell them and the quantity they carry, it's pretty hard to imagine them selling out. Then again, not much going on weather-wise in my neck of the woods so something major would have to happen.

No matter what, I could have light for days or weeks just using the AAs from my TV/DVD/etc. remotes and L10 Nichia 219s!


----------



## FourBin Labs

We also got hit by the storm that rolled through over the weekend. We were lucky, only lost power for less than a day due to them having to turn off the power in order to do a repair further down the line.

First thing I did when I got home was take my Atom A0 with an Energizer Ultimate Lithium battery and hang it from the light over the dining room table. I set it to low, then took a few flashlights from my closet and set them on the table. The A0 should last for a several days on low. So at any point someone needed a light, they could get to this table and grab one.

I find other than going into the basement to flip breakers and getting the generator running out in the pole barn, we really didn't use our lights too much. Even after the generator was going, we left all of the lights off. It's a 10k generator, but we wanted to use as much juice as possible to run fridge/freezers, water heaters, and other things like that. We just ended up hanging out in the family room around the fireplace most of the night, then went to bed.

My APC SUA-1500 died during this outage. After getting the generator going again in the morning I came inside to smoke rolling out from under my desk. Not sure why this happened, as I always had the unit off while the generator was running. I've only had this refurbished unit for a month, so the place I bought it from is already sending a replacement :thumbsup:


----------



## zespectre

Y'all got me wondering so I set up a test in the back room of our house which is a 200 sq/ft space with white ceiling and dark paneled walls.

The candidates were;
Sunwayman D40A (with 4xAA NiMH Tenergy [blue label] 2600mAh cells) with and without a clear diffuser.
Nitecore EX11.2 (1xCR123 primary [Surefire brand])
PowerTac E3 (1xAAA [1000mAh PowerEX brand NiMH])

Essentially the results were that any/all of these lights, on their lower or lowest settings, were adequate for at least minimally illuminating a room such that it could be safely navigated and at those levels of illumination the uninterrupted duration ranged from 30hr all the way up to 60hr. When I stepped the light up to a level comfortable for reading a regular print book, the runtimes weighed in from 1hr (the E3 only has low and high) to 31hr 22min for the D40a.

So presuming a regular dark period of 9 hours, sleeping with the "firefly mode" of the most efficient light, and assuming intermittent use of the smaller lights, it seems reasonable to me that 4xAA, 1xCR123 and 1xAAA batteries could get me through a blackout of more than 5 days. 

Huh. At that rate I currently have enough batteries in the house to light my world for somewhere around 130 days (and that doesn't even count my kerosene lantern collection <grin>)


----------



## Poppy

zespectre said:


> Y'all got me wondering so I set up a test in the back room of our house which is a 200 sq/ft space with white ceiling and dark paneled walls.
> 
> <SNIP> When I stepped the light up to a level comfortable for reading a regular print book, the runtimes weighed in from 1hr (the E3 only has low and high) to 31hr 22min for the D40a.
> 
> <SNIP>



The D40A states ... High: 550 Lumens (1.7hrs) Mid: 220 Lumens ( 4hrs ) Low: 30 Lumens (31hrs)

I understand that 220 lumens may be more than is needed, but is 30 lumens, ceiling bounced, really enough to read a book? I am pretty sure that I need more than that. Certainly my night vision is not what it was before I was called Poppy  . My TN30 has a 38 lumen setting, I can try that later tonight, or later this week.

Thanks for doing some testing and participating.


----------



## zespectre

Poppy said:


> The D40A states ... High: 550 Lumens (1.7hrs) Mid: 220 Lumens ( 4hrs ) Low: 30 Lumens (31hrs)
> 
> I understand that 220 lumens may be more than is needed, but is 30 lumens, ceiling bounced, really enough to read a book? I am pretty sure that I need more than that. Certainly my night vision is not what it was before I was called Poppy  . My TN30 has a 38 lumen setting, I can try that later tonight, or later this week.
> 
> Thanks for doing some testing and participating.



I was using a clear diffuser on the Sunwayman and it was tailstanding on the headboard of my bed right over my head as I read. It was fine for me, some may want more light. If the Sunwayman had been aimed AT my book I think 30 lumens might have seemed a bit much actually.


----------



## braddy

For book reading, I want a headlamp.

There are very long running headlamps for that purpose, my HP25 does 4 floody lumens for 204 hours with 4 AAs.


----------



## bluemax_1

braddy said:


> For book reading, I want a headlamp.
> 
> There are very long running headlamps for that purpose, my HP25 does 4 floody lumens for 204 hours with 4 AAs.


Yep, book reading doesn't require lighting the rest of the room so a headlamp is really convenient. I really like this ZL H52W. Small and light so I can practically forget it's there.


Max


----------



## Poppy

zespectre said:


> I was using a clear diffuser on the Sunwayman and it was tailstanding on the headboard of my bed right over my head as I read. It was fine for me, some may want more light. If the Sunwayman had been aimed AT my book I think 30 lumens might have seemed a bit much actually.



Last night I finally got around to doing some testing. I don't have a light meter, so have to rely on manufacturers ratings. My TN30 has a 38 lm setting, and my 1400ma driven Convoy S2 @ 5% low (that I calculated to be about 40 lm, seems to be a little less, so I guess 30-35 lm). Admittedly, my night vision is not what it was 20 years ago, but ceiling bounced, I could just about read with either light. Just about. However, placed on the head-board, with a paper or cardboard reflector/diffuser (our friend reppans style)


reppans said:


> Here ya go Poppy... pocket diffuser
> clicky and clicky


 would allow two people to read without headlamps.

So my friend, I fall into the "some may want more light" category.
Thanks for sharing.
:thumbsup:


----------



## Poppy

Poppy said:


> Biker Bear,
> Your Trail Marker lights are great little MacGyver-isms!
> <snip>
> 
> During one power outage, I used my 12V cordless drill battery to power my 8C radio. The kids drained the batteries, and used up my spares.





Biker Bear said:


> Thank you - <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> Oops. Dare I presume that led to Having A Talk?


LOL... Yeah, we had a little talk, but talking doesn't always work :shakehead
So I got a little sneaky  don't tell the kids.
I put fresh batteries in the radio, and placed a little piece of cardboard at the ends by the connectors. Now, if they want to use the radio, they'll think the batteries are still dead, and will plug it into an outlet. :devil:

This way, I have fresh batteries stored IN THE UNIT.

Actually, I might have used a small piece of plastic which would add a little extra protection against alkaleeks.


----------



## reppans

zespectre said:


> ......to 31hr 22min for the D40a....



Interesting..... sounds like a true 30lm/30hr mode. My D40A sample happens to test in at 15lm/60hrs (2000 mah Eneloops), which as a low lumen/runtime enthusiast, I am very happy with. 



Poppy said:


> ....My TN30 has a 38 lm setting........However, placed on the head-board, with a paper or cardboard reflector/diffuser (our friend reppans style) would allow two people to read without headlamps.



Poppy, if you use aluminum foil tape (found in any hardware store) on the other half of the card to retain a focused beam, you'll be able to double-triple your runtime with the same reading illumination. Clicky. My family uses this method to illuminate board games and the dining table during blackouts... sometimes throwing the lumens everywhere works, sometimes more specific illumination works.


----------



## bluemax_1

reppans said:


> Interesting..... sounds like a true 30lm/30hr mode. My D40A sample happens to test in at 15lm/60hrs (2000 mah Eneloops), which as a low lumen/runtime enthusiast, I am very happy with.
> 
> 
> 
> Poppy, if you use aluminum foil tape (found in any hardware store) on the other half of the card to retain a focused beam, you'll be able to double-triple your runtime with the same reading illumination. Clicky. My family uses this method to illuminate board games and the dining table during blackouts... sometimes throwing the lumens everywhere works, sometimes more specific illumination works.


That's a great suggestion with the foil tape and with it on only half the card, you can swap sides based on your needs and the foil still produces some diffusion compared to the bare beam.


Max


----------



## reppans

bluemax_1 said:


> That's a great suggestion with the foil tape and with it on only half the card, you can swap sides based on your needs and the foil still produces some diffusion compared to the bare beam...



Thanks, but it's not a new suggestion, it's always been part of the diffuser/reflector. Anyone notice the wire twisty ties taped down on the back? That allows you precisely aim the light with about ~45 degrees of angle adjustment. Also, I keep 2 small plastic film discs (red and yellow) taped to back which I can drop on the lens for colored light. In combination with a strobe function, it can serve as an roadside emergency flare. I lost a good friend that was struck and killed by car as he was assisting a broken down motorist :-(


----------



## Poppy

reppans said:


> Interesting..... sounds like a true 30lm/30hr mode. My D40A sample happens to test in at 15lm/60hrs (2000 mah Eneloops), which as a low lumen/runtime enthusiast, I am very happy with.
> 
> 
> 
> Poppy, if you use aluminum foil tape (found in any hardware store) on the other half of the card to retain a focused beam, you'll be able to double-triple your runtime with the same reading illumination. Clicky. *My family uses this method to illuminate board games and the dining table during blackouts..*. sometimes throwing the lumens everywhere works, sometimes more specific illumination works.




Holy crap! Your dining room is more utilitarian than mine  Clicky. How do you hold that light while using that room as a Reading Room? LOL... maybe I really don't want to know?


----------



## reppans

Poppy said:


> Holy crap! Your dining room is more utilitarian than mine  Clicky. How do you hold that light while using that room as a Reading Room? LOL... maybe I really don't want to know?



Touche! 

Actually Poppy, you really ain't that far from the truth - for a few months out of a year, I really could be cooking my dinner from the "reading room." Clicky.


----------



## Poppy

reppans said:


> Touche!
> 
> Actually Poppy, you really ain't that far from the truth - for a few months out of a year, I really could be cooking my dinner from the "reading room." Clicky.





Very nice!

During the summer cooking inside heats up the cab VERY quickly, due to that fact, we'd often cook outside on a coleman stove. Many times though, I have used a George Forman style electric grill (one that cooks both sides at the same time) and that works well, without throwing as much waste heat into the cab.

I'm thinking that if you were looking at an extended outage, the family would be planning a "road trip" :thumbsup:


----------



## reppans

Poppy said:


> ...Many times though, I have used a George Forman style electric grill (one that cooks both sides at the same time) and that works well, without throwing as much waste heat into the cab...



Absolutely, those things are great and one lives in my rig (mine's billed as a panini press, but is essentially the same thing), although I'm not concerned with cab heat (my rig is so small, the ceiling fan can replace the cab air every 60 secs). I love them out of sheer laziness - cooks in <5 mins, easy clean-up, grease splatter stays outside.


----------



## tonijedi

This is just my opinion, and I know this is a "light" forum so please don't burn me alive :duh2:
In a power outage having light wouldn't be my greatest concern. If I can have everything else (food, water, perhaps heating) what do you need the light for? Just do your things day time and sleep in the night (and do other interesting things in bed too). "Oh but there is an emergancy" so ok, you should have your flashlights prepared like in any other occasion.
It's like hiking for several days, use the daylight and sleep when it gets dark. If there is a long power outage I think there are worse problems than lighting.


----------



## DoubleA

I know this thread is about flashlights mainly, but since extended power outages was the big focus, I'd like to chime in about what I have deemed as necessary for myself (just one person).

My way of thinking is that a single candle can take care of my general lighting needs in the room I'm in. Flashlights would be used when a candle is not safe or bright enough, such as when I'm moving around alot or going outside. For that, I believe that my use for a flashlight would be very intermittent, and 10 minutes total use per night would be needed. A light that can last 5 hours per battery change would last a month at this rate. Of course, more batteries could easily be stocked, but not a huge number is needed. 

That's the beauty of candles: they don't age, don't need aging batteries, tealights are super cheap for the amount of time you get from them (150-200 hours per bag of 50). Flashlights can have their problems, especially with electronics and batteries, so I like the idea of a candle for lighting the room I'm in, and that's what would require the bulk of my lighting needs.


----------



## braddy

tonijedi -- If you have a family then you should know the importance of light during an emergency.

Being unable to see for up to 12 hours is incredibly bizarre, disorienting and dangerous. People have much to do after dark, fetching firewood, cooking, treating an injury or wound, or illness, checking security outside or even inside the house, comforting a child, making repairs on equipment and gear, bathroom activities.

The idea that on a moonless winter day, that everything from cooking to eating, to using the toilet, must be done by 6pm, not to be restarted until 6am, is not ideal, especially with a house full of children to contend with.

In pioneer days, nighttime was a period of much work and activities that were best done while sitting, or inside.

Life doesn't cease when the sun goes down, and you won't catch me camping and unable to treat a wound or injury, or secure a downed tent in a storm, or identify a noise, or locate my gun, because I don't have a means of light.

I question whether you were being authentic in your question.


----------



## braddy

DoubleA-- Candles are fine, and part of the mix.

Flashlights don't cause fires, and lights that run for a 100 hours on a single AA, or for hundreds of hours on a single 18650, make good lanterns when used with a diffuser.

Some of us here have flashlights that will produce 10 lumens for 140 hours on a single battery. Using that light for 5 hours a night, gives you a month's worth of a switch on, switch off, lantern, clean and simple, and cooler for hot climates, also more versatile.


----------



## tonijedi

I was by no means saying you don't need a flashlight, but as others said meanwhile you can have many hours of burntime with a decent flashlight. When I go hiking (my maximum was only 10 days in the woods) I obviously do take flashlights (usually the setup is 1 headlamp per person and 1 handheld flahlight per tent). Presently I EDC 3 flashlights (usually just 1 AAA and 1 Photon but as lately I need to carry a backpack why not throw a Fenix LD10 and an extra battery?).
What I was trying to say is that you don't really need a pile of batteries. And I have some hand cranking flahlights and lanterns that work just fine for indoors or if used with care not to break. And my girlfriend loves candles.


----------



## braddy

tonijedi said:


> This is just my opinion, and I know this is a "light" forum so please don't burn me alive :duh2:
> In a power outage having light wouldn't be my greatest concern. If I can have everything else (food, water, perhaps heating) what do you need the light for? Just do your things day time and sleep in the night (and do other interesting things in bed too). "Oh but there is an emergancy" so ok, you should have your flashlights prepared like in any other occasion.
> It's like hiking for several days, use the daylight and sleep when it gets dark. If there is a long power outage I think there are worse problems than lighting.




I didn't even see any mention of batteries.


----------



## tonijedi

It mentions flashlights and most flashlights run on batteries. So yeah, if you know how to use a flashlight you should have batteries.
You go to the knife forum and the plan is:
1 tuna fish can
1 water bottle
1 flashlight
20 knives

You go to the radio and comm's forum and it is:
1 tuna fish can
1 water bottle
1 knife
20 two way radios

Here it's 20 flashlights and 200 batteries... nothing wrong with flashlights (I have plenty, running on AA's, AAA's, 18650, 123, solar, hand cranked) but there's (much) more besides it.
So, my opinion on the main question of the thread is:
a - 1 headlamp per person
b - 1 flashlight with diffuser for each room
c - Enough batteries to run the lights for 3 days * 6 hours = 18 hours with a lumen output just enough to cook, use the toilet, eat.


----------



## Poppy

tonijedi said:


> It mentions flashlights and most flashlights run on batteries. So yeah, if you know how to use a flashlight you should have batteries.
> You go to the knife forum and the plan is:
> 1 tuna fish can
> 1 water bottle
> 1 flashlight
> 20 knives
> 
> You go to the radio and comm's forum and it is:
> 1 tuna fish can
> 1 water bottle
> 1 knife
> 20 two way radios
> 
> Here it's 20 flashlights and 200 batteries... nothing wrong with flashlights (I have plenty, running on AA's, AAA's, 18650, 123, solar, hand cranked) but there's (much) more besides it.
> So, my opinion on the main question of the thread is:
> a - 1 headlamp per person
> b - 1 flashlight with diffuser for each room
> c - Enough batteries to run the lights for 3 days * 6 hours = 18 hours with a lumen output just enough to cook, use the toilet, eat.



A Jedi, comments NOT with scarcasm, yes? 

Here in part is the OP's scenario


> Let's say there is an extended power outage 5-7 days, and you are a family of four. Two adults, and two children ages 5 and 10.


So tonijedi's proposal is to have four headlamps, and perhaps three flashlights, (living room, kitchen, toilet) and enough battery power for three days. I guess days 4-7 will be spent in darkness? 

OK... yeah I was sarcastic, but I am NOT a Jedi. 

IMO this has been an intelligent discussion of power needs or wants to live comfortably in one's home, for perhaps a week's duration. It has taken into consideration that some individuals prefer low lumens, and others prefer more. I don't recall any posts recommending an over-abundance of lights (other than to lend some out to others).


----------



## tonijedi

Well, I even have more headlamps and flashlights than what I "recommend"  I don't think it would be a problem for most people on this forum.
Besides that, I really find it pratical to have a light in each room (taken in consideration everyone knows where it is).

The thing is, when you start the scenario you don't know if it's going to be 1 hour, 3 days or 7 days of power outage. It's easy to empty a bunch of batteries if you use the high modes of the flashlights so I find the idea of having hand-cranked and solar flashlights a good one even though they are not indestructible, require work or sun, can have poor durability, are quite fragile, make noise (hand cranked)...


----------



## braddy

tonijedi said:


> It mentions flashlights and most flashlights run on batteries. So yeah, if you know how to use a flashlight you should have batteries.
> You go to the knife forum and the plan is:
> 1 tuna fish can
> 1 water bottle
> 1 flashlight
> 20 knives
> 
> You go to the radio and comm's forum and it is:
> 1 tuna fish can
> 1 water bottle
> 1 knife
> 20 two way radios
> 
> Here it's 20 flashlights and 200 batteries... nothing wrong with flashlights (I have plenty, running on AA's, AAA's, 18650, 123, solar, hand cranked) but there's (much) more besides it.
> So, my opinion on the main question of the thread is:
> a - 1 headlamp per person
> b - 1 flashlight with diffuser for each room
> c - Enough batteries to run the lights for 3 days * 6 hours = 18 hours with a lumen output just enough to cook, use the toilet, eat.




Is that what you do, go to forums and post like you did on this one, and then argue with people and contradict yourself?


----------



## Poppy

braddy said:


> Is that what you do, go to forums and post like you did on this one, and then argue with people and contradict yourself?


 braddy, he is but a young jedi apprentice and needs yet to learn the ways of the Force/Forum.  He is still awaiting the delivery of his first 18650 power cells.



tonijedi said:


> Well, I even have more headlamps and flashlights than what I "recommend"  I don't think it would be a problem for most people on this forum.
> Besides that, I really find it pratical to have a light in each room (taken in consideration everyone knows where it is).
> 
> *The thing is, when you start the scenario you don't know if it's going to be 1 hour, 3 days or 7 days of power outage.* <SNIP>..



Yes my young apprentice, perhaps you can now see the theme behind the thread, and the reason for asking the original question. Hopefully it will make one THINK about what his lighting desires are, not only for himself, but for those in his immediate care. While one may be comfortable with 4-10 lumens, other family members may need 80-120 lumens to be comfortable, maybe more. This thread, hopefully makes one consider what the power demands would be to supply the desired amount of light, and how he may supply that power for a week. Rechargeable batteries are a recurrent solution.

Regarding the duration of the outage, while it is true, one can't predict exactly how long it will be, if he has a radio, he might be able to make a reasonable approximation. For example, if there are multiple volcanoes erupting, concurrently with earth quakes, and continental land masses colliding, one, might assume that the power will be out for a very long time. OTOH, if one heard a crash, and half of his block lost power, he might assume that the power will be returned within three hours. 

If one is prepared for seven days, one can typically extend that for a month. If his plan includes a way to recharge rechargeables, then he might go on for years.


----------



## jimboutilier

tonijedi said:


> It mentions flashlights and most flashlights run on batteries. So yeah, if you know how to use a flashlight you should have batteries.
> You go to the knife forum and the plan is:
> 1 tuna fish can
> 1 water bottle
> 1 flashlight
> 20 knives
> 
> You go to the radio and comm's forum and it is:
> 1 tuna fish can
> 1 water bottle
> 1 knife
> 20 two way radios
> 
> Here it's 20 flashlights and 200 batteries... nothing wrong with flashlights (I have plenty, running on AA's, AAA's, 18650, 123, solar, hand cranked) but there's (much) more besides it.
> So, my opinion on the main question of the thread is:
> a - 1 headlamp per person
> b - 1 flashlight with diffuser for each room
> c - Enough batteries to run the lights for 3 days * 6 hours = 18 hours with a lumen output just enough to cook, use the toilet, eat.



Don't forget once you've been to all the forums it's
20 tuna fish cans
20 water bottles
20 knives
20 two way radios
20 flashlights
20 guns
.....
Well, you get the idea. For us overly prepared, there's no such thing as overly prepared - lol


----------



## tonijedi

Party on guys!
During a 10 days hiking me and my girlfriend hardly used half an AA. We were prepared with a lot more lumens and runtime in case we needed, but we didn't have any emergency.
Same philosofy goes for home in case the power is out: respect your biological clock and you'll do fine.


----------



## braddy

So now you are back to your original post.


----------



## tonijedi

I'm so sorry braddy that I can't make myself more explicit, it's probably due to my language skills. My first post and the following are not conflicting with each other: I do advocate less light use (respect your Circadian rhythm), but I also say you should have lights ready for when it's needed. I won't argue more about this, it's just my opinion, I have the various lights and candles to do it according to it if I may ever need and that's it. If it ever happens to me it's my skin in the game, not yours.


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## Poppy

Gentlemen,
This discussion is no longer contributing to the purpose of the thread. If you feel a need to, please continue by way of PMs.
Thanks

Poppy.


----------



## braddy

Yes, the thread sure got taken off topic.


----------



## LlF

------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## Poppy

LlF said:


> i have a 3 D dorcy that's suppose to have 200lm, with 3 aa in adapters, bouncing from ceiling most of the time.
> and I have to say the big baton like 3D light with the lightweight of lithium feels great in hand, I'm seriously considering the olight baton now... If I survive this.
> *btw with 3D it has 20h runtime, how long can I expect with 3AA?*


wikipedia lists the capacity of alkaline D cells at 8000 ma and AA cells at 1800-2600 ma. and lithiums at 2500-3400 ma. therefore on average the alkie AA's have approx 25% capacity, and lithium AA's have approx 35% of D's. Your run-time would be cut to about 5 - 7.75 hours depending.


----------



## Lampbeam

Well, I would have to use my Fenix TK15 with its 18650s along with a Zebralight SC52w with its 14500 battery. I would use the SC52w sparingly. Then I would have to resort to tearing open a package of eight alkaline D cells to run my Maglite. I should probably stock up on some AA lithium batteries because I have several AA lights. I think I would get through it even though I'm not all that well prepared. I do have a 12 volt 48 amp marine battery with a converter off of which I could charge things for a while. But something tells me light might not be my priority.


----------



## Superdave

We keep plenty of real candles, lots of the LED tea lights, many, many flashlights and ungodly amounts of vampire-worthy 123's.. best guess would be 3-5 weeks worth of light during the dark hours, maybe more if i harvested the battery from my Nova.. lol

I'd probably keep my U2 going for the most part on low, kids have their own 2AA LED lights that last for weeks on batteries (I find them turned on under the couch all the time).




Heat is always my worry this time of year, I hate the thought of running a Kerosine heater inside the house but we keep one just in case. Supposed to be -11 tonight, even with new windows and good insulation it won't take long to get cold in here.


----------



## r-ice

Was in a huge ice storm, storms done but the damages to hydro is still on going. Currently only aa's and aaa's. I also have that lantern from energizer and it works great. I bought 96 Kirkland batteries along with my regular components of rechargeable's about 20 or so aa and aaa's.


----------



## BriteGeek

For my wife and I 50-200 lumen depending on task. Based on past outages, MINIMUM number of batteries for our Quark mini 123s would be one CR123A battery per day. Preference on the other hand is 200 lumen, plus 50-100 to get around, so we break out the rechargeable flashlights that can be recharged from the car, deep cycle AGMs, or generator(s). (should I count the lanterns that take "D" batteries?) One time my wife had to work in a building that was running on its generator for over 30 hours. Darn designer forgot to include the bathrooms on the emergency lighting circuit. She LOVED the Quark mini I had bought for her to keep in her purse! She only used one CR123 during that time.

What we keep on hand is two rechargeable batteries for each flashlight that takes a rechargeable, plus six changes of non-rechargeables for each flashlight (where applicable). It may be considered overkill, but when it comes to emergency preparedness, there is no overkill, just over-budge!


----------



## riccardo

jimboutilier said:


> Don't forget once you've been to all the forums it's
> 20 tuna fish cans
> 20 water bottles
> 20 knives
> 20 two way radios
> 20 flashlights
> 20 guns
> .....
> Well, you get the idea. For us overly prepared, there's no such thing as overly prepared - lol



....

20 bottles of beer
20 box of cigarettes
20 lighters

... estote parati..!!

;-)


----------



## RI Chevy

Very interesting thread. I really like it!  I would have to add that I diversify my lighting. I have flashlights, candles, hurricane lamps that run on oil, etc. If used properly, and with respect, candles and oil lamps will run for a very long time when you have no light at all. I think most of us flashaholics have enough lights and batteries to supply our neighborhoods.  

Interesting that I did not see anyone mention the little lantern adapters that will screw onto the bezel end of a P60 type host. I have the Solarforce lantern and run it on 18650's with a M61LLL. I like it. I also use diffusers, and have many Malkoff drop ins. Some high powered, and many LL, LLL and LLLL versions.  

Living in hurricane alley as well, one can never be too prepared. Not only with lights and power, but also with food and drink. I thank the members for some very valuable and useful information in this thread. :thumbsup:


----------



## RetroTechie

tonijedi said:


> What I was trying to say is that you don't really need a pile of batteries.


True, but "do everything in daylight" just doesn't cut it. In a long-lasting blackout you may find yourself with lots of (unforeseen?) jobs, and nighttime hours will be needed for some of those. It's more a matter of "how many lumens, and where" than "go to sleep when it's dark". A few lumens can go a long way when all you need is navigating some rooms, cook food etc. So a few flashlights with low modes, good runtimes and some spare batteries (or charger + backup power source) will help a lot.



> c - Enough batteries to run the lights for 3 days * 6 hours = 18 hours with a lumen output just enough to cook, use the toilet, eat.


Who says power will be back in 3 days? Granted, that's long in western world but week-long or longer outages aren't unheard of in some places. Better prepare for a few weeks or longer, and if it doesn't last that long, good for you. Candles seem fine in that mix, as long as they're used safely.


----------



## TMedina

markr6 said:


> I could be shooting myself in the foot here, but I never worry about AA availability around home. When I think of the number of stores that sell them and the quantity they carry, it's pretty hard to imagine them selling out. Then again, not much going on weather-wise in my neck of the woods so something major would have to happen.
> 
> No matter what, I could have light for days or weeks just using the AAs from my TV/DVD/etc. remotes and L10 Nichia 219s!



I helped a buddy drive through Louisiana after Katrina rolled through. We stuck to the outskirts and periphery, but I could very easily see stores selling out of batteries PDQ.

And see people turn around and either 1) horde them or 2) re-sell them with a substantial markup. Supply and demand meets price gouging.


----------



## TMedina

DoubleA said:


> I know this thread is about flashlights mainly, but since extended power outages was the big focus, I'd like to chime in about what I have deemed as necessary for myself (just one person).
> 
> My way of thinking is that a single candle can take care of my general lighting needs in the room I'm in. Flashlights would be used when a candle is not safe or bright enough, such as when I'm moving around alot or going outside. For that, I believe that my use for a flashlight would be very intermittent, and 10 minutes total use per night would be needed. A light that can last 5 hours per battery change would last a month at this rate. Of course, more batteries could easily be stocked, but not a huge number is needed.
> 
> That's the beauty of candles: they don't age, don't need aging batteries, tealights are super cheap for the amount of time you get from them (150-200 hours per bag of 50). Flashlights can have their problems, especially with electronics and batteries, so I like the idea of a candle for lighting the room I'm in, and that's what would require the bulk of my lighting needs.



Candles are very practical, but they also have limitations. They absolutely suck in wind and rain. You can buy a UCO micro hurricane lantern for a tea candle - I have one stashed with my emergency tea candle pack. But even then, in a high wind or heavy rain, you're still at risk for sputtering out. And there's the added risk of an open flame, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread.

By all means, keep some on hand - you won't regret having them. In some cases, candles are superior. In some cases, flashlights are - the trick is to always evaluate each tool on its own strengths and weaknesses and use it accordingly.


----------



## TMedina

On the subject of knife forums means 20 knives, radio forums means 20 radios, etc. That's a good point to remember. Here, we're flashaholics and we do love our hobbies. And we likely don't need 20 flashlights and 200 batteries.

That said, buying batteries in bulk is cheaper - especially if you know you're going to use them. I have half a 24-pack of Surefire CR123s that I bought in 2007 in a box. I still bought a 12 pack of CR123s from Malkoff last month. Why? Because if push comes to shove, I'm not going to regret having extra batteries lying around. And in that same vein, in the unlikely event one of my Malkoff lights dies, I won't regret having a spare, or three. This doesn't mean I plan to haul all 20 lights around with me in an emergency, nor would I recommend to anyone to buy 20 lights -> although I would certainly recommend buying more than one. (three, at a minimum, with one for every member of the house).

If I can conduct all by business with a single flashlight and no more than half an AA for a week, cool. But it's plain irresponsible, if not downright reckless to assume that it will be that way every time. Especially in an emergency where you can't predict how often you might have to use a light, or for how long. Which is why you have spares - a spare flashlight in case your primary breaks, and spare batteries in case you drain a battery more than you expected.

Plan for the worst and everything else is a pleasant surprise.


----------



## TMedina

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Sub_Umbra said:


> I've got a couple of 1D vampires that Wayne at EL made for me after Katrina. If I tail stand one with a fresh alky in the bathroom it'll light the whole room *24 hours a day for a week.*
> 
> They have P4 emittters from 2006 and Micropucks. Even though they are a bit long in the tooth they are great to have in extended grid down events. Since I had them built we have had two major outages -- one for five days and one for two weeks. They performed very well.
> 
> When we first got them I did an experiment. I took a D cell from a three cell set that was so dead that they would not even make the filament glow in a M/\G light and slipped it into one of my EL 1Ds. Each 'dead' cell produced *hours* and *hours* of very usable white light.
> 
> Of course one could build even better 1D lights for grid down events with the emitters available today. Highly Recommended.



I just sent Wayne an email about these - if anyone is interested, I'll pass along what he has to say.


----------



## r-ice

TMedina said:


> I just sent Wayne an email about these - if anyone is interested, I'll pass along what he has to say.



Ooh I am interested!! Do they come I. Other battery sizes?


----------



## TMedina

We'll find out. They're not specifically listed on his website, so it might have been a custom order. If so, he might not be interested in doing another run.

And even if they only come in D-cell sizes, you can get D-cell adapters for other battery types. Like running an AA in a D-cell adapter. 

But we'll see - I sent the email this morning, so I'd be surprised if I hear anything back before next week.


----------



## TMedina

Actually, he just replied to my email.

The price quoted was $80 for a hand-made 1-D cell light using a "Cree XML LED in it, about 240+ lumens. Runs seemingly forever from a single D cell."

When I say hand-made, I mean the man machines all the parts himself. Based on the picture he sent, I think you could run over it with a HMMWV and it would still work.

If anyone is interested, I'll pass along the email and contact info.


----------



## Poppy

TMedina said:


> Actually, he just replied to my email.
> 
> The price quoted was $80 for a hand-made 1-D cell light using a "Cree XML LED in it, about 240+ lumens. Runs seemingly forever from a single D cell."
> 
> When I say hand-made, I mean the man machines all the parts himself. Based on the picture he sent, I think you could run over it with a HMMWV and it would still work.
> 
> If anyone is interested, I'll pass along the email and contact info.



TMedina,
I'm not sure of my math, but if I read the graphs for a Cree XML correctly, it will output 260lm @ 700ma @ 2.9 volts. 
If a D cell has 8000 ma (wikipedia) 
1.5v * 8000 ma = 12 watts /hours per D cell
2.9 v * 700 ma /1000 milli watts / watt = 2.030 watts/hour
the D cell would power the light for less than 6 hours.

I'd be interested in seeing what he is offering.


----------



## TMedina

The crux of the email is this:



> In the past I have made a real simple !D design before, simple twist on/off/momentary switch. Have to dig up a photo of it to send you. Recently I designed a Bruiser-1D, basically same thing but looks closer to Big Bruiser in design. I've only made one as a special request. See attached photo (tail cap not on it) Has a Cree XML LED in it, about 240+ lumens. Runs seemingly forever from a single D cell.
> 
> Price would be $79.99. I would need to machine all the parts myself, which I could do when I get back from vacation January 1.



I'm not about to challenge him on the claims because I'm not an electronics geek and I've heard enough good things about his work that I'm willing to take it at face value. But if you'd like to chew the numbers with him, his email is: w a y n e j a t e l e k t r o l u m e n s d o t c o m. 

The "Big Bruiser" he references can be found on his website, here: http://elektrolumens.com/Big-Bruiser/BigBruiser.html


----------



## Diesel Pro

I have generators (both whole house and portable) so I am not overly concerned, but if I were to be prepared without a generator I would have a solar charge station and I would also have some nice oil lamps. Worked fine for many years before electricity...

For basics a Honda EU 1000 or better yet EU2000 with an extended run fuel tank would run chargers or direct to the lights. The EU 2000 will run up to 15hrs on a gallon of gas. It's what I use at our off grid cabin.


----------



## Poppy

We are looking at single digit F temperatures and less, in large portions of the US, this coming week. I'm thinking that power failures may occur, and water main breaks may occur. I read through Sub_Umbra's Water Emergency Epiphany thread and was comfortable that I could always get water from our community detention pond, or a nearby reservoir, if needed for nothing more than flushing the toilet. Just today, it dawned on me that both of my "emergency water sources" might be frozen over! With deep freeze conditions, it is not uncommon to hear of water main breaks. I'm thinking that I might put a couple of barrels of water in my garage, just in case.

I'd like to suggest that everyone read through his epiphany thread. You never lose by gaining knowledge.


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> We are looking at single digit F temperatures and less, in large portions of the US, this coming week. I'm thinking that power failures may occur, and water main breaks may occur. I read through Sub_Umbra's Water Emergency Epiphany thread and was comfortable that I could always get water from our community detention pond, or a nearby reservoir, if needed for nothing more than flushing the toilet. Just today, it dawned on me that both of my "emergency water sources" might be frozen over! With deep freeze conditions, it is not uncommon to hear of water main breaks. I'm thinking that I might put a couple of barrels of water in my garage, just in case.
> 
> I'd like to suggest that everyone read through his epiphany thread. You never lose by gaining knowledge.


Yes, that's a GREAT thread. If more folks read threads like that one, more of them might be a little more prepared.


Max


----------



## ChrisGarrett

I've got the Sawyer Squeeze 1 with gravity drip buckets and a couple of LifeStraws and even a new LifeStraw GO water filter bottle.

Being in Miami, frozen pipes aren't a problem, but I live on a lake and canal, so water to drink using appropriate filters, isn't a problem.

Chris


----------



## bluemax_1

ChrisGarrett said:


> I've got the Sawyer Squeeze 1 with gravity drip buckets and a couple of LifeStraws and even a new LifeStraw GO water filter bottle.
> 
> Being in Miami, frozen pipes aren't a problem, but I live on a lake and canal, so water to drink using appropriate filters, isn't a problem.
> 
> Chris


I think you posted this in the wrong thread. You might have meant to post this in the Emergency Water Epiphany thread.


Max


----------



## BriteGeek

*What did you use the last time the lights went out (and why)?*

This morning the lights went out. It was 4:30 and pitch dark outside. And I was about to step into the shower. So I very carefully walked the 6’ to my dresser and turned on my EDC (Quark Mini 123). That was enough light to briefly appease my wife and to let me walk safely to my side of the bed to retrieve the light I keep there (PowerTac Warrior Reloaded) which I then turned on, and set on its tail cap.

Fortunately the lights came back on within 5 minutes, so I didn’t have to start dragging out more light sources. But it got me thinking. My EDC is inevitably the closest, and what I’d start with, but without fail, unless it was the only thing available to me, I’d use it only long enough to get me to something bigger. In another post I commented on how “I” could get by with just a few lumen, but that “WE” would prefer 200+ to get around with.

Taking this train of thought one step further, I wondered what others used the last time their lights went out, and just as importantly, why? I know this thread parallels others, but here I’m more curious of what people DID use during the first few minutes of an outage, not what they had planned to use, or did use after the lights had been out for some time. And, of course, the all important why "that" flashlight (or those flashlights)?


----------



## Launch Mini

*Re: What did you use the last time the lights went out (and why)?*

Tri-V2. Actually use this plenty at the cabin where we have no electricity.

WHY?
With the dual emitters, it really illuminates the rooms nicely via ceiling bounce. The combo flood & reflector really works well together.


----------



## cland72

If I'm stuck without power for an undetermined period of time, I'm going to need three types of light (for the most part): 
1. Navigation/task completion in the dark (10-20 lumens: 40ma)
2. Room illumination (100 lumens, most likely tailstanding: 150ma )
3. Situational awareness lighting. Think searching around the house, confronting a thief/criminal, etc. (200-500 lumens: 1.5a)

I'd estimate that you'd see use spread among those levels as follows:
1. 70%
2. 20%
3. 10%

I think I'd need an average of 3 hours of light per day (depends on time of year of course). I did a weighted average calculation of the mAh draw of the three modes based on amount of usage, and I figure if you use a 2,000 mAh 18650, you'd get approximately 42 hours of light if the assumptions above are true.

Divide 42 by 3 hours per day, and that gives you 14 days of light from one fully charged 18650. Deduct 25% as an arbitrary margin of error, and you're still sitting pretty at 10 days of light from one battery. 

Determine the # of individuals who need their own light source, and the number of days you wish to have light, and you'll know how many lights and batteries you'll need to accomplish the goal.

Of course, this is all dependent on you being able to have a P60 pill or other light custom built with these exact brightness levels.


----------



## TMedina

In a normal light outage, whether planned or not, I function on anything between .9 to 13 lumens worth of light. I keep a couple of E01-style lights by the bed, in addition to my "bump in the night" light. When I wake up in the morning, I grab an E01 or similar to find my clothes and get ready to start the day without waking anyone else up. Although lately I've been using the HL10's 3 lumen setting - same effect as the E01, but not as bright and every bit as functional.

That's more than enough light for me to see what I'm doing, avoid stubbing toes or tripping, and conduct daily life in my apartment.

If you're talking about outdoors, depending on the task, I have lights ranging from 35 to 325 lumens.


----------



## cland72

I cannot remember the last time the lights went out, but I can tell you the progression would probably look like this:

Take out my EDC (also a Quark Mini 123) and use it to get the following:
Quark Pro for tailstanding/room lighting
Surefire C2-HA with Malkoff M61L 219 for those moments I need a ton of light immediately
Surefire Minimus Vision for hands free needs


----------



## mbw_151

When the power goes out I grab the closest light and then use it to round up my AA and 2AA Quarks and AA Zebra headlamps. I then remove the Energizer E2(s) and put in Costco alkalines which do fine on medium output (about 20 lumens). I always have al least 20 AA alkalines in the house and it's way cheaper to burn these than E2s or CR123s. I still have other high power lights if needed, but the Quarks and Zebra headlamps provide plenty of light for almost all tasks.


----------



## Light Mage

typically i carry at least my sc52w and often an 18650 could be either sc600 mk2, alpha blue lable, or pd32ue. my 10 year old always has an sc52 on her (bringing her up right as a young flashaholic, wife not so happy though). My 13 year old has a ld10 and if the wife needs a light there is a spare pd 31in the kitchen at all times or in the office is a quark 123 pro her choise depending on where she is when we loose power.


----------



## ChrisGarrett

bluemax_1 said:


> I think you posted this in the wrong thread. You might have meant to post this in the Emergency Water Epiphany thread.
> 
> Max



Yep, sorry.

Chris


----------



## buds224

I had a TK41, LD20, and TA21 with me during the Big Southwest power outage of 2011. We were in between PCSing from SD to Yokosuka, Japan, so we were temporarily shacked up in a tiny apartment complex in a ghetto part of I.B. ***Poof*** Everything shut down.

It was the day before we were to leave anyway, so I decided to drop off my wife and kids at my parent's until our flight out. During packing out, darkness set in really well; no light pollution at all (gas stations/stores/everything inoperable). It was D-A-R-K!!!

I could see that the houses around the complex were ill prepared. Maybe 1 candle for every 5 houses. The entire apt complex was paralyzed, no lighting, electric stoves down.

1 unit, our unit, shined brightly through the entire pack out. TK41 tailstanding with a diffuser on Max. It became a little nerve racking as my LD20 and TA21 had pretty tight beams and people actually caught me off guard, sneaking up on me, unintentionally, asking if I'd be willing to sell my flashlights. San Diego was obviously not prepared for disasters.

Arrived at my parent's home without incident and lit their house for the rest of the night.

The following day, when checking out from the apartment, the manager inquired about the lights and took heavy notes.

Haven't had a fulfilling flashlight experience like that since. The power is too reliable here in Japan. :scowl:


----------



## Poppy

ChrisGarrett said:


> Yep, sorry.
> 
> Chris



No problems Chris. This thread has wandered around a bit... its all good :thumbsup:


----------



## reppans

buds224 said:


> *1 unit, our unit, shined brightly through the entire pack out*. TK41 tailstanding with a diffuser * on Max*. It became a little nerve racking as my LD20 and TA21 had pretty tight beams and people actually caught me off guard, sneaking up on me, unintentionally, asking if I'd be willing to sell my flashlights. San Diego was obviously not prepared for disasters.
> 
> Arrived at my parent's home without incident and lit their house for the rest of the night.



Curious what your battery stores/recharge options were like at the time? When a power outage hits, I get pretty darn conservative with batt. power, and I'm already a low lumen/runtime guy with decent battery stores/solar charge options. I couldn't imagine burning batts using max for general area lighting without knowing when the power will return. Max for search and rescue or something else serious, sure. 

Also, if walking out among the general unprepared population, I'm very thankful to have low-/sub-lumen lights which would be the least appealing to the unsavory masses. It sounds like the SW 2011 outage only lasted a day, but had it gone much longer, I have a feeling that a well lit apartment, or walking around with bright light, might attract and invite the unsavory to relieve you of your preparations without compensation... esp. in the "ghetto."


----------



## TMedina

buds224 said:


> It became a little nerve racking as my LD20 and TA21 had pretty tight beams and people actually caught me off guard, sneaking up on me, unintentionally, asking if I'd be willing to sell my flashlights. San Diego was obviously not prepared for disasters.



It isn't often you get a first-hand example of the danger of over-emphasis on throw without spill - you're blind as a bat to things outside of the hotspot, especially in close quarters.



> The following day, when checking out from the apartment, the manager inquired about the lights and took heavy notes.



Heh. At least someone has seen the light.


----------



## Etsu

reppans said:


> When a power outage hits, I get pretty darn conservative with batt. power, and I'm already a low lumen/runtime guy with decent battery stores/solar charge options. I couldn't imagine burning batts using max for general area lighting without knowing when the power will return.



When we get a power outage, I use most of my lights on high for general illumination. They'll last for at least a couple of hours on high, and I have a drawer full of batteries if I need to replace them. If, after one night the power was still out (only happened once), then I would step-down to medium (which would last a few evenings). Only after several days would I consider going down to low modes.

Why deprive ourselves of light, when it's one of the things that might boost spirits when it's really needed? It doesn't take very many batteries to keep lights going for a long time. I'm not looking to survive for a year, just a few hours or days at most.

I'm not worried about people trying to steal my lights. Way too many people with generators going that make far easier and more lucrative targets.


----------



## Poppy

reppans said:


> Curious what your battery stores/recharge options were like at the time? When a power outage hits, I get pretty darn conservative with batt. power, and I'm already a low lumen/runtime guy with decent battery stores/solar charge options. * I couldn't imagine burning batts using max for general area lighting without knowing when the power will return.*



reppans,
LOL... he may not have known when the power will return, but he did know when HE would be OUT of the POWER Failure AREA, because on the following day, he was "  _leaving on a jet plane_  " to Japan 

You do however make a good point of reasons to, in other words, Not be a Show Off with your lights.

Etsu,
I'm pretty much in line with your thinking, that I want to use as much light as is necessary to keep everyone comfortable. I wouldn't need to put all of my lights on high, perhaps a few on medium, and low. In my family, it is possible that *I* am the one who wants the most light. 200-300 lumens in a nice sized room, and even I would be happy. 100 lumens and I could be satisfied. I have enough stored capacity in my 16x 18650 batteries that I could do 300 lumens 5-6 hours a night for 8 nights without a recharge. Or 100 lumens for ~30 nights. 

Certainly we can modify the rate of our battery usage/drain based upon what we estimate the duration will be. If the lights on my side of the street are out because a transformer blew, then I can be pretty confident that power will be restored in a couple of hours. If 1,000 miles of coastline was destroyed because of continental shift, that's a different story.


----------



## reppans

To each his own, of course, I personally like low lumens and using my night vision - makes me feel like camping in the house. My son is the same, wifey likes brighter though - she uses all the batts up. I'm not worried about theft in my suburban neighborhood, but the guy mentioned being in the "ghetto." Also, me thinks if the state of CA is out of power, airports (even with their emergency generators) will not be running normal operations.... just saying


----------



## buds224

reppans said:


> Curious what your battery stores/recharge options were like at the time? When a power outage hits, I get pretty darn conservative with batt. power, and I'm already a low lumen/runtime guy with decent battery stores/solar charge options. I couldn't imagine burning batts using max for general area lighting without knowing when the power will return. Max for search and rescue or something else serious, sure.
> 
> Also, if walking out among the general unprepared population, I'm very thankful to have low-/sub-lumen lights which would be the least appealing to the unsavory masses. It sounds like the SW 2011 outage only lasted a day, but had it gone much longer, I have a feeling that a well lit apartment, or walking around with bright light, might attract and invite the unsavory to relieve you of your preparations without compensation... esp. in the "ghetto."



At the time I had x2 packs of x16 AA Alkaleaks on me. Of course I've since switched over to eneloops. So I felt fine using the TK41 on max as I did. I'm one of those bogeyman people where complete darkness scares me. So it was comforting to have plenty of light at the time.

Moving around, I of course didn't use my LD20/TA21 on max, once I realized it was messing with my night vision. I was of course pre-flashaholic status at the time and still learning. And yes, that ghetto neighborhood was scary when silent and dark. One guy wanted to buy a flashlight off me so he could continue searching through a trash dumpster; of course, $15 for an LD20 is not enticing even in daylight, LOL. I booked it as soon as I was packed.


----------



## bluemax_1

reppans said:


> Also, if walking out among the general unprepared population, I'm very thankful to have low-/sub-lumen lights which would be the least appealing to the unsavory masses. It sounds like the SW 2011 outage only lasted a day, but had it gone much longer, I have a feeling that a well lit apartment, or walking around with bright light, might attract and invite the unsavory to relieve you of your preparations without compensation... esp. in the "ghetto."


Yep, I would do the same. Use the low/dim modes to attract the least attention. Reserve the BRIGHT modes for emergencies. As has been mentioned before, when everyone else is in the dark and you're the only one(s) with a whole lot of light, the unsavory types will also wonder what other preparations you might have that they don't, that they could relieve you of.

Of course, this all depends on your location and how much you trust your neighbors.



TMedina said:


> It isn't often you get a first-hand example of the danger of over-emphasis on throw without spill - you're blind as a bat to things outside of the hotspot, especially in close quarters.



Yes, there's a reason I prefer the lights I do. Unless they're for a specific purpose, I tend to prefer lights that have both a decent hotspot for throw AND a nice wide spillbeam that illuminates a wide swath.


Max


----------



## Etsu

bluemax_1 said:


> Yep, I would do the same. Use the low/dim modes to attract the least attention. Reserve the BRIGHT modes for emergencies. As has been mentioned before, when everyone else is in the dark and you're the only one(s) with a whole lot of light, the unsavory types will also wonder what other preparations you might have that they don't, that they could relieve you of.



Excuse my naivety, but is that common in most U.S. cities and towns? I see many people on this board talking about using flashlights for self-defense, etc. Where I live (small town Canada), I can honestly say I've never felt even remotely threatened regardless of where I am, what time of the night it is, what I'm carrying with me, etc. (At least, not by people.)

I know every country has bad areas (there are places in Toronto I wouldn't hang out at night), but people give the impression that many/most areas of the U.S. are places where you have to be careful. On my visits to the U.S., I've never felt that way, but perhaps I was ignorant, or just was lucky enough to stick to nice areas. (Only once did I make a wrong turn and drive into a section of town where I thought... uhoh!)

I like knowing that when I go for a walk in a park at night, I'm the most dangerous guy around for miles because I'm carrying a can of pepper spray to use against coyotes or stray dogs! If I lived in a neighbourhood where civilization went to hell whenever the power went out, I'd definitely move.


----------



## jimboutilier

Etsu said:


> Excuse my naivety, but is that common in most U.S. cities and towns? I see many people on this board talking about using flashlights for self-defense, etc. Where I live (small town Canada), I can honestly say I've never felt even remotely threatened regardless of where I am, what time of the night it is, what I'm carrying with me, etc. (At least, not by people.)
> 
> I know every country has bad areas (there are places in Toronto I wouldn't hang out at night), but people give the impression that many/most areas of the U.S. are places where you have to be careful. On my visits to the U.S., I've never felt that way, but perhaps I was ignorant, or just was lucky enough to stick to nice areas. (Only once did I make a wrong turn and drive into a section of town where I thought... uhoh!)
> 
> I like knowing that when I go for a walk in a park at night, I'm the most dangerous guy around for miles because I'm carrying a can of pepper spray to use against coyotes or stray dogs! If I lived in a neighbourhood where civilization went to hell whenever the power went out, I'd definitely move.



I think crime or the threat thereof has a lot to do with population density. Having lived in both the US and Canada in various sized towns and cities, I don't think the threat level between the two countries in areas of similar population density generally differs a lot (although there are individual exceptions). But there are a lot more areas of higher population density here in the US so a lot more "big cities" like Toronto. And a lot more people to share their safety concerns on forums and such. 

Just my opinion.


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## bluemax_1

Etsu said:


> Excuse my naivety, but is that common in most U.S. cities and towns? I see many people on this board talking about using flashlights for self-defense, etc. Where I live (small town Canada), I can honestly say I've never felt even remotely threatened regardless of where I am, what time of the night it is, what I'm carrying with me, etc. (At least, not by people.)
> 
> I know every country has bad areas (there are places in Toronto I wouldn't hang out at night), but people give the impression that many/most areas of the U.S. are places where you have to be careful. On my visits to the U.S., I've never felt that way, but perhaps I was ignorant, or just was lucky enough to stick to nice areas. (Only once did I make a wrong turn and drive into a section of town where I thought... uhoh!)
> 
> I like knowing that when I go for a walk in a park at night, I'm the most dangerous guy around for miles because I'm carrying a can of pepper spray to use against coyotes or stray dogs! If I lived in a neighbourhood where civilization went to hell whenever the power went out, I'd definitely move.


As I said, it really depends on your location.

Is it common in the US? I guess that would depend on your viewpoint. In just about ANY city in the US larger than the size of a small town, there are areas I would prefer not to be in. I've lived in various neighborhoods both good and not so good and as such have come to err on the wary side of things. In some neighborhoods, the average populace is respectful and courteous to everyone else. If they needed some help/items in an outage, they would ask. In other areas, the types of mentalities there are more prone to taking whatever they need/desire, especially under the cover of darkness.

I grew up in a neighborhood where I didn't worry about anything like that. I recall a power outage lasting a few days in the summertime when I was about 7-8. My dad brought back one of the generators from work so we could use it to have power. On my street, between 1/2 to 1/3 of the houses had generators running, and my Dad took no precautions to prevent the theft of the generator. There are other neighborhoods where anyone with a generator in a power outage would likely be the only one on their block. In some neighborhoods, you could leave the generator unprotected. In others, a generator running outside unprotected in a power outage may not be there by the next day.

I've lived in neighborhoods (like my current one) where the neighbor leaves his nice barbecue grill outside the garage all summer long. I've also lived in neighborhoods where a neighbor was mowing the lawn. He went inside to take a break (it was hot that day), and came out 30-50 minutes later to find his lawnmower gone.

In addition, no matter where I live, I've come to realize that the more desperate people get, the less they care about anyone else, so I prefer to err on the side of caution. If the power is out for an extended period, you never know how desperate some people will get.


Max


----------



## Poppy

Etsu said:


> Excuse my naivety, but is that common in most U.S. cities and towns? I see many people on this board talking about using flashlights for self-defense, etc.



Etsu,
You can feel absolutely safe and comfortable in *most US cities and towns*. As already stated there are sections of some cities that you should stay away from, but that is the same all over the world. We have cities that have a larger population than some entire countries. New York City has a larger population than more than 50% of the countries on the planet. It has 25% of all of Canada. Certainly when in densely populated areas you need to maintain a higher situational awareness than if out on a farm, but most tourist areas have more police and are safer. There are entire countries that are more dangerous than the worst sections of some of our cities!

Regarding... "I see many people on this board talking about using flashlights for self-defense, etc." 
First of all, people on this board are from all over the world, including Toronto, Canada, Norway, Australia, Germany, Poland, the United Kingdom, and other countries. Certainly they can't all be talking about using flashlights for self defense when they travel to the US! 
Secondly, now this is just my opinion, but I'd bet that *most people* who are asking: "Recommend me a flashlight for self defense" have no training in hand to hand combat, or in martial arts, and if they tried to use it as a weapon, may find it shoved up where the sun doesn't shine, but their new light will. In other words, people talk [email protected]#$, but don't have the ability or training to back themselves up. 
I try to ignore those people.


----------



## TMedina

Etsu said:


> Why deprive ourselves of light, when it's one of the things that might boost spirits when it's really needed? It doesn't take very many batteries to keep lights going for a long time. I'm not looking to survive for a year, just a few hours or days at most.



I find I like low lumens because 1) it's enough light to get the job done and 2) conserves battery life. Even with packs and packs of batteries, "waste not, want not." 

As a fringe benefit, your eyes shift back and forth from low lumens to night adapted, and back faster than they do with super bright lights.


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## Poppy

Gentlemen:
Yesterday, I changed out a standard 40W household bulb, with a LED. I noted that it listed the 40W as 465 lumens on the bulb. That got me thinking about this thread again.

There are those of us who make a good point for the use of low lumens, reppans and TMedina come to mind. 


> Low lumens preserves night vision/night adapted eyes, it essentially allows one to see more, in part because he can see more in his periphery.
> As a fringe benefit, your eyes shift back and forth from low lumens to night adapted, and back faster than they do with super bright lights



I'm wondering... those who prefer low lumens, are low lumens a way of life? I.E are all of the house hold bulbs 40 watts or less? OR low lumens are prefered only with flashlight use?, or something in-between?


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## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> hose who prefer low lumens, are low lumens a way of life? I.E are all of the house hold bulbs 40 watts or less?



This whole notion of lighting up your living space like daylight is still a very new concept nature-wise; man was primarily living by firelight until roughly the 1930's, so it's what you're evolved to see by. A single power outage (or Earth Hour) under ~100 ceiling-bounced lumens will show you plainly that most modern lighting is overkill, and you can have a perfectly productive and/or enjoyable evening using only what is considered medium mode on most flashlights to light your area.

My living room setup is a single 24 watt CFL, I would prefer multiple low-output warm LEDs, but this is what's frugal for now.


----------



## braddy

Poppy said:


> Gentlemen:
> Yesterday, I changed out a standard 40W household bulb, with a LED. I noted that it listed the 40W as 465 lumens on the bulb. That got me thinking about this thread again.
> 
> There are those of us who make a good point for the use of low lumens, reppans and TMedina come to mind.
> 
> 
> I'm wondering... those who prefer low lumens, are low lumens a way of life? I.E are all of the house hold bulbs 40 watts or less? OR low lumens are prefered only with flashlight use?, or something in-between?




Excellent question, I doubt it. Mankind has always preferred sun light, and when it isn't available at night, man strove for the best he could get in trying to replace it.

I don't use up resources trying to make it bright during emergencies because I want to get by with little, so as to stay prepared in case the blackout lasts a long time, but if I had a family, I would prefer at least one bright, cheery room for the wife and kids.


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## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> Gentlemen:
> Yesterday, I changed out a standard 40W household bulb, with a LED. I noted that it listed the 40W as 465 lumens on the bulb. That got me thinking about this thread again.
> 
> There are those of us who make a good point for the use of low lumens, reppans and TMedina come to mind.
> 
> 
> I'm wondering... those who prefer low lumens, are low lumens a way of life? I.E are all of the house hold bulbs 40 watts or less? OR low lumens are prefered only with flashlight use?, or something in-between?


I think for some folks, low lumens IS a lifestyle choice.

Although we can get by with pretty low light levels, it obviously depends on what you need the light for. Certain tasks or activities are better served by brighter light levels whilst other activities require less. And the amount of light that is optimal to avoid eye strain depends on the activity and individual.

I DO notice that in general, while I have my house comfortably lit to me, that other folks tend to have their houses quite a lot brighter, ESPECIALLY if they have small children, and they would likely consider my house quite dimly lit.

My kitchen has a fixture with incandescent bulbs and a dimmer switch. I haven't changed the bulbs in years because I have the dimmer set to its lowest possible setting, which apparently doesn't stress the filaments much (the 40 watt bulb in the hallway has been changed numerous times even though the total runtime over the years is less than the kitchen light which is on far more).

The main bathroom also has a dimmer switch usually on its lowest setting or close to it.


Max


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## TMedina

Heh. I fall somewhere inbetween.

I don't mind bright lighting in its place - I actually installed two 40w LED bulbs in my desk lamp and by bedside lamp. And I have brighter bulbs in the overhead lighting in various spots throughout the house.

The "low lumen lifestyle" isn't something I embrace as a philosophy. It's just the best tool to fit the situation: why deplete batteries trying to keep indoor lighting to "bright" levels when you have a limited supply of batteries and an unknown duration of power outage?

Quite literally, it's a case of "don't waste it, and you won't be empty-handed when you need it."


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## reppans

I'm also somewhere in between - for me, the low lumens thing is primary driven by battery conservation and night vision preservation for the outdoors. 

Indoors using AC power, I have no problem with bright lights, my eyes will stop down to adjust just fine. But on DC, I prefer using just enough light to accomplish a given task, and for me that means letting my eyes dark-adapt and using 0.3 and 3 lms (not ZL lumens though), aiming the beam/hotspot where necessary. I don't find it eye straining or gloomy at all - I actually like it a camping/man cave sort of way. It's partially due to sheer laziness (I just don't like charging/changing/carrying spare batts) combined with my preferred battery config of 1xNiMh/CRAA/14500 (for EDC size and compatibility with my other AA gadgets). As another example, my tablet and smartphone rarely see above 25% screen illumination.

Outdoors (DC by definition), night vision preservation is critical to me. For one, I just enjoy the outdoor night experience more when I feel I'm part of it, as opposed to trying to stamp it out with bright light. Also, just as importantly, it's much less scary to me when I can sense motion in my peripheral vision and there's just less inky black surrounding me on three sides. Add camping (assume backpacking) into the mix where I'll use a flashlight continuously every night, and it's the combination of battery conservation and night vision preservation.

All that said, every night I will happily admit to sneaking away from the family for flashlight playtime where I prefer using the dimmest AC lamps in the house, or only flashlights, to keep my eyes dark-adapted. It's winter, and I consider it camping/SHTF practice .


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## jimboutilier

I tend to choose a lighting level I consider most appropriate to a given task and I guess I'm on the outside of in between. By that I mean if the average person considered 100lm appropriate to a given task, I'd likely want a light source that offered 25-400lm. 

My AC and DC lighting choices reflect this. At home all rooms have ample overhead lighting (mostly on dimmer switches), often supplemented with variable output mood or task lighting. So each room has a wider than normal range of lighting. My flashlights tend to be the same way, with a variety of output levels over a higher than normal range. 

The task and situation dictate the light level. Finding the cat takes less light than finding a cactus needle. You might choose less light for a given task if resupply was unavailable like in a power outage. You might choose more light for a given task if the outcomes were more critical as in walking a sidewalk at night vs a cliff side mountain trail.


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## StarHalo

jimboutilier said:


> (mostly on dimmer switches)



Not an option for us radio folk, unfortunately; most dimmer switches are like in-wall electronic countermeasure devices when in comes to radio listening..


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## Poppy

I guess I am on the high side.
My kitchen has 7 high hat fixtures, each with a 65 watt equivalent fluorescent with a lumen output of 600 lumens so that's 4200 lumens.
My family room (with my desk) has two lamps each outputting 500-600 lumens. There is also ornamental lighting that I won't count.
The living room has a 2 bulb four foot florescent fixture that gives 52000 [edit... 4360 ]recessed ceiling bounced lumens, and two incandescent lamps @60 watts each approximately 2*800 lumens
My Garage has 2 four foot fixtures 52000 * 2= 104,000 lumens! [edit... should read.. 2180 * 4 bulbs = 8,720 lumens]

[edit... corrected totals]
Kitchen 4,200 lumens
Living room 5,960 lumens
Family room 1,200 lumens
garage 8,720 lumens

hmmm, considering the above, it's incredible that I could be comfortable with just a couple of lights putting out 100 lumens each. 

I think I might try to see if I can get my family to practice a couple of nights with flashlights, and reduce our overall power consumption. LOL... wish me luck!


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## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> hmmm, considering the above, it's incredible that I could be comfortable with just a couple of lights putting out 100 lumens each.



The trick is the _aesthetic_ of the light, not just low output. Think about some of the nicer restaurants you've been in, museums, cabins; the cozy atmosphere, just enough light just where it's needed, letting the light make the statement together with the space as opposed to just blasting everything with laboratory lighting..


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## moldyoldy

Ref the light where it is needed: My desk lamp is a 3watt Ikea goose-neck lamp for $10. My Netbook 10" screen is set at about 1/2 brightness. I do not have a large 21"+ monitor hooked up to my laptops. My largest laptop is a (fast) Portege with a 13.3" screen. There is another 3watt Ikea lamp providing the walk-thru light for the living room, or maybe a 14watt CFL in a single lamp if my wife turns it on. My wife uses a 16watt CFL for her desk lamp. 

Yes, I have lights scattered around the house for in-case-of. I cycle thru all of them at some point, thereby refreshing the cells. the Mains power does fail, and sometimes for days! I do not have an outside generator.

However, my kids have grown up and flown the homestead. They would not have tolerated my level of light. My long-suffering wife would not either, but she is learning, slowly....Being married to an engineer is difficult as it is. 

Conversely, when I walk thru the house on those inevitable nocturnal bio-breaks, I dare not use barely enough light to avoid bumping in to something. The cats rather routinely leave some "present" for me, the semi-clear stuff cannot be easily seen, and cleaning off your foot in the middle of the night is rather disruptive to any sleep. There is also the matter of cleaning up the cat litter box and all of the litter scattered around by the cat paws. (3 cats involuntarily!) No 'standard' room light will suffice. I lay a high-output flashlight (800-900 lumens) down on the floor to see the litter particles to ensure that I vacuum them up - remember where they came from and maintaining hygiene!

Finally, age catches up with all of us. The lens in the eye yellows and does not pass the light like it used to. The rods and the cones are not as sensitive as they used to be. What was plenty of light as a young adult is dim to this old man. All this talk of sub-lumen levels is, well, amusing. wait a few years....

However I do agree with the understanding of - if you need light, let there be light, no artificial constraints. Otherwise pay attention to the KWH consumption!


----------



## RetroTechie

Poppy said:


> The living room has a 2 bulb four foot florescent fixture that gives 52000 recessed ceiling bounced lumens,


Say what?  Even at ~100 lm/W (high end LED lighting) that would use >500W continuous per fixture. More if some other light source like CFL or halogen is inside.

Even 1/10 of that (5200 lumens) is a good amount of light for a living room, comparable with a halogen bulb in 200~300W range. Unless those lights are high-end LED *and* you use them as space heaters too, I suspect those numbers got fudged somehow. :thinking: The other numbers you mentioned, look more in normal range.


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## Etsu

RetroTechie said:


> Say what?  Even at ~100 lm/W (high end LED lighting) that would use >500W continuous per fixture. More if some other light source like CFL or halogen is inside.
> 
> Even 1/10 of that (5200 lumens) is a good amount of light for a living room, comparable with a halogen bulb in 200~300W range. Unless those lights are high-end LED *and* you use them as space heaters too, I suspect those numbers got fudged somehow. :thinking: The other numbers you mentioned, look more in normal range.



Yeah, it's gotta be 5200 lumens. That's about right for two 4-foot 40 watt florescent tubes.

Me... I like rooms bright when lit with lamps. Living room has about 6000 lumens in total lighting, but it's a moderately large room. When I'm just using a flashlight to light it up (tailstanding), I'll use about 150 lumens. Anything dimmer and I can't see stuff very well, unless my eyes are dark adapted.


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## Poppy

Ooops! What a difference a zero makes eh!? 

I guess I should have checked more than one site. This is more in line. I'll edit above.

Brand SYLVANIA - Wattage _40_ - Bulb Type F40T12 - Color Temperature 6500 - CRI 88 - Length 47.78 - Life Hours 20000 - _Lumens_ (Initial) 2180


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## dss_777

As I get older, I want more light in task-heavy areas, like the kitchen or garage. While mindful of the rising cost of electricity, more is generally better, IMHO. 

In an emergency, I'll settle for much, much less. Area lighting/general livings space doesn't have to be bright at all, but I reserve the right to throw a high-intensity spot on something when needed.


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## jamesmtl514

In my kitchen i have 9 recessed ceiling lights, 2 sconces, 6 under cabinet lights, 2 lights under my range hood..and....while all on my Hellfighter outshines the lot :devil:


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## davis19942003

I am new to this forum, if say something stupid, please kindly correct me.

We seldom have power outage in Hong Kong, but if I had power outage, I would just light some candles in the living room because I live in a small house
I will need a headlamp when I cook. The output should be around 50-100 lumens. May be I will need a good big maglite for backup.
In situation like these, I think the run time is more important than the output.


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## StarHalo

davis19942003 said:


> I think the run time is more important than the output.



Yes, you have that right. For a headlamp in total darkness, 2 lumens is plenty. 100 lumens is what you'd use to light a large living room area for more than one person.


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## RetroTechie

davis19942003 said:


> I am new to this forum, if say something stupid, please kindly correct me.
> 
> We seldom have power outage in Hong Kong, but if I had power outage, I would just light some candles in the living room because I live in a small house


Given how many people live there in a small area, I assume "small house" will refer to "high rise apartment" for many HK residents. If that high rise has, say, 200 apartments, would you feel comfortable knowing that (multiple?) candles are burning in most of those 200 apartments when a blackout hits?

I'd think not. Better go for a ceiling-bounced flashlight, LED lantern or something like that. And not become the place of origin for a high rise fire. 

2nd question: if small house = something like ground floor + 1st floor, does that change anything to the above? Again, I'd think not. Candles are fine when used safely & supervised *AT ALL TIMES*. But for lighting purposes I'd keep them only as backups when all else fails.



> I will need a headlamp when I cook. The output should be around 50-100 lumens.


Good plan. Or some light above pots + where you cut up your meat & veggies. Local lighting, only where needed, and when needed.


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## davis19942003

I have forgotten my Favourlight LTC-20E4AA lantern LOL
[h=1][/h]It claims it can run up to 45 hours on low mode. In a power outage,I think it will be enough for lighting up the room in total darkness.

What about the maglite? Are maglites good backup light?
I don't own a maglite but I always want one. I don't know which one to buy as they have many models. 
I would love the big ones like 5 or 6 C cells as they look rigid.


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## TMedina

They're not bad - assuming we're talking about the Maglite LED C or D cell lights. 

But 5 or 6 cell lights are ridiculous, in my opinion. They're awkward, they're heavy, and are, ultimately, a pain to haul around for any length of time. As incandescent flashlights, they're also very inefficient in terms of output and run-time versus battery consumption.

For the same size and weight, I'd invest in a basic Fenix E01 (and a pack of AAAs), a decent x2 AA light (and a pack of AAs). Those two lights, with replacements, will last you through almost any blackout. Toss in a headlamp for hands-free use and, because this is a flashlight forum, a backup light or two, and you're set.

If you absolutely need a large, heavy blunt object, get a hammer.


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## Poppy

TMedina said:


> If you absolutely need a large, heavy blunt object, get a hammer.



Very funny! 

I had a three D cell LED maglight. I gave it to my dad with three fresh batteries, and an additional 6 batteries in their blister packs. It is my understanding that it'll drop about 20% in output in the first hour of use, but then it levels off for a long time. Mag claims 85 hours, so I'd figure half that at a decent output level. Still forty hours at 65 lumens or so, is decent. If you go that route, be sure to get spare batteries beforehand because D sized batteries disappear from the shelves quickly.


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## reppans

Poppy said:


> ...... Mag claims......



ANSI standards are a wonderful thing  clicky


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## TMedina

Poppy said:


> Very funny!
> 
> I had a three D cell LED maglight. I gave it to my dad with three fresh batteries, and an additional 6 batteries in their blister packs. It is my understanding that it'll drop about 20% in output in the first hour of use, but then it levels off for a long time. Mag claims 85 hours, so I'd figure half that at a decent output level. Still forty hours at 65 lumens or so, is decent. If you go that route, be sure to get spare batteries beforehand because D sized batteries disappear from the shelves quickly.



Which is very cool - keyword is LED. As far as I know, Mag has not put out a 6 D-cell LED light - which means it's very likely an incandescent. Your 3 D-cell MagLED will outperform the 6 D incandescent Maglite in almost every way. And it'll be a lot easier to haul around as well.

If you go that way, stock up on D-cells and buy an LED lantern that takes D-cells as well. They'll last for hours and hours of runtime and be better room-lighters than the Maglites.


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## Monocrom

Tactical lights are nice. But in a Blackout, it's the battery vampires that really "shine."


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## RI Chevy

Monocrom said:


> Tactical lights are nice. But in a Blackout, it's the battery vampires that really "shine."



I agree 100%! You need long run time, not necessarily extreme brightness.


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## bluemax_1

RI Chevy said:


> I agree 100%! You need long run time, not necessarily extreme brightness.



The great thing is, with LED tech these days, you don't necessarily have to choose either or anymore. It's possible to have both in one light; an ultra bright, "What was that noise?" mode AND a multiple week capable low mode.


Max


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## TMedina

Which is true, but I believe that multi-mode lights have more to go wrong than single mode lights. I freely admit that it's a personal bias, but I'd prefer three separate single-mode lights rather than one "all-in-one" flashlight.

If nothing else, you have backups to cover down on a failure in your primary.


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## buds224

TMedina said:


> I freely admit that it's a personal bias, but I'd prefer three separate single-mode lights rather than one "all-in-one" flashlight.



How about x3 multi-mode lights? It's like carrying all three no matter which one you happen to pick up.


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## TMedina

You skipped over the "I believe multi-mode lights have more to go wrong than single mode lights" part of my post.

As utility lights, multi-modes are great tools. In an emergency situation, I favor reliability over utility. A Fenix E01, a perennial favorite, has only one mode and has very, very few points of failure. Which is not the same as saying *nothing* can fail, but chances are skewed in favor of the single mode light not failing.


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## RI Chevy

I agree wholeheartedly on the one mode lights. The Malkoff single mode drop ins are completely bombproof! AND the voltage range is excellent with many different options. With that said, I also have the M361N for a multi purpose every day go to light.


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## TMedina

It's funny you mentioned the Malkoff drop-ins. I was debating mentioning a Malkoff single-mode combined with a physical "multi-mode" option like the high/low ring.

The high/low ring works on the principle of adding a resistor to the circuit - the external resistor in the high/low ring might fail, but I think it's less prone to failure than a more complicated circuit designed to adjust lumen output based on a cycling power input (tap - change mode, tap - change mode, etc.)


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## Burgess

to Davis19932004 --


Welcome to CandlePowerForums !


:welcome:
_


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## parnass

A break in the electrical power company's neutral conductor left us without power for 9 hours last January when the outdoor temperature was 11 degrees F. There was deep snow on the ground at the time and we were without heat and water during that period, as well.

We used lanterns, actual candles, flashlights, and headlamps for close range work, e.g., less than 20 feet. The most useful flashlights were ones which had lots of spill. Tightly focussed lights, e.g., those with TIR optics, were poor performers for use indoors.

The break occurred underneath the road, in the wire between our house and the power company's pole. The unbalanced voltages on our home's electrical circuits destroyed several wall warts and surge supressor power strips, and damaged several appliances. But that's another story.


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## braddy

Making a diffuser, or merely placing your tightly focused lights inside of a white plastic bag, would make for some good lighting as a lantern.


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## Monocrom

braddy said:


> Making a diffuser, or merely placing your tightly focused lights inside of a white plastic bag, would make for some good lighting as a lantern.



Just seems easier to buy a good lantern. Every true flashaholic should have a lantern.


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## buds224

TMedina said:


> You skipped over the "I believe multi-mode lights have more to go wrong than single mode lights" part of my post.
> 
> As utility lights, multi-modes are great tools. In an emergency situation, I favor reliability over utility. A Fenix E01, a perennial favorite, has only one mode and has very, very few points of failure. Which is not the same as saying *nothing* can fail, but chances are skewed in favor of the single mode light not failing.



I'm in a unique situation....I could have x30 failures and still have x30 lights left. To date, I've only had 1 failure, and it was a Thrunite single mode light. Not to say that I have any bias either way, but just pointing out that failures can happen in any light, multi-mode or single mode.


----------



## TMedina

Can happen, yes. But this goes back to my first post on the subject - I *believe* that adding more features results in more things to go wrong and a higher probability of failure. Whether that is statistically true or not, I have no idea. But I believe it enough to let it impact my buying habits and recommendation choices.

Furthermore, I have found that people tend to buy the minimum needed to get the perceived job done - i.e. just one flashlight in advance of an emergency. While thrifty, it also leaves the user with a single point of failure in that instance - one light to rule them all is cool, until it fails. Generally speaking, single-mode lights tend to be cheaper than their multi-mode counterparts, with a much (much) simpler UI.

Clearly, your experiences and opinions are different from mine - more power to you.


----------



## TMedina

Monocrom said:


> Just seems easier to buy a good lantern. Every true flashaholic should have a lantern.



Heh. I don't disagree, but field expedient diffusers aren't bad either.


----------



## blah9

I've been disappointed with lanterns though. I don't like the glare they create. I much more prefer ceiling-bouncing lights or some other technique of situating flashlights so they don't point at my face. And I also seem to do better that way because then the light is often pointed more toward the things I want to be illuminated rather than in 360 degrees. I guess my real favorite is a headlamp now that I purchased one I am very happy with though. This has drastically reduced my annoyances with glare.


----------



## Monocrom

Not all of them create glare. I've actually gotten good results with the non-LED, older, flat-sided lanterns from Energizer.


----------



## blah9

Ah, yes, perhaps I should take a look at some of those. I also don't remember having that trouble with kerosene lanterns, although I haven't used one in quite a few years.


----------



## braddy

Monocrom said:


> Just seems easier to buy a good lantern. Every true flashaholic should have a lantern.



That poster already had lanterns, but didn't seem to have found a use for his focused lights. Personally, I have dropped the idea of lanterns and think in terms of long running flashlights and diffusers.

For instance an E01 with a 2 liter bottle diffuser does fine for the bathroom, and I can easily charge the single AAA with my solar charger.


----------



## cland72

As soon as I can get over the urge to save money, I'm pretty sure I'll be ordering a Streamlight Seige. I've read great things about it on this forum.

I agree that single mode lights (Surefire 6P with M61LLL, for example) are going to be more reliable than, say, a FourSevens QPL, but with moon mode available on the 47 light, that would be my primary light, whlie the 6P stayed in reserve in case the 47 failed. It's pretty hard to hold a 6P in your mouth while you work with both hands.

I'm also really digging the diffuser that came with my EDC+ Triple - makes a lantern out of your favorite P/C/Z series Surefire.


----------



## chaosdsm

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I think I'm pretty well set. In a multi-day power outage situation, & totally ignoring the generator which I would use to mainly run the refrigerator & water pump, I can hook up a car battery to the solar cells powering my attic fans for charging purposes. 

Battery wise, I have:
> 8x Eneloop XX 2500mAh 1.2V NiMH lsd AA
> 10x Powerizer 10,000mAh 1.2V NiMH D-Cells (had 12 but two won't charge anymore)
> 6x Tenergy "900"mAh (yea-right...) 3.0V LiFePO4 RCR123A (still need a good charger for these)
> 2x Panasonic 3,400mAh Li-Ion Protected 18650
> 24ct pack Duracell Quantum AA Alkaline
> 24ct pack Duracell Quantum AAA Alkaline
> 12ct pack Duracell Coppertop D-Cell Alkaline

Chargers:
Powerex C808M 8-bay AAA - D-Cell charger with conditioning & slow-charge cycles
Powerex MH-C9000 WizardOne 4-bay AA/AAA charger/analyzer
Nitecore i4 Intellicharger 4-bay multi-cell charger (Tenergy is selling a rebadged version with an added 3.7V/3.2V selector switch for charging their 3V LiFePO4 cells... yet the cutoff voltage is 3.6V, seems a bit high for a 3V cell???)

I can run all of the chargers simultaneously at max capacity durring the day & still charge the 12v battery as long as there's no cloud cover. One solar cell normally powers one 18" 1/4hp attic fan at around 1,200 - 1,400 RPM, have 2 cells & 2 fans & the cells can easily be connected in series or parallel. With the solar setup, I can pretty much run indefinitely without power.

Lights to go with those batteries:
> Maglite 5x D-Cell flashlight with 3-4 cell LED drop in: about 190 lumens on NiMH (6V) and about 240 lumens on alkalines (7.5V). >70 hours continuous runtime to 50% output on a set of NiMH's.
> Mini-Maglite Pro AA flashlight: rated at 226 lumens with 2x AA alkaline, closer to 240 lumens with the Quantum's.
> Nitecore SRT-7 flashlight: rated at 0-960 lumens I think it's closer to 860 lumens but hits right at 3hrs runtime in turbo mode on a single 18650 battery. About half lumens gives more than enough light when bounced off the ceiling to read by in any part of the 242 sq ft living room.
> Coleman MAX 3xAAA focusable LED flashlight: about 180 lumens with 3x AAA Quantum
> Rayovac Industrial single LED 3xAAA headlamp: rated for 60/100 lumen 
All of these flashlights are strong enough to provide readable light when bounced off the ceiling nearby

If anyone has wondered about the new Duracell Quantum - They make all lights run brighter when new so I'm certain they're delivering more voltage than standard alkaline's, but seem to have about the same battery life. Couple shots that show this difference in action: camera settings = ISO100, aperture f/8, shutter speed 4 seconds, focal length 84mm, white balance auto

Coleman MAX with 3 brand new Duracell Ultra AAA batteries on full-flood 






Coleman MAX with 3 brand new Duracell Quantum AAA batteries on full-flood 





For reference, here are my local targets in daytime:





And the Nitecore SRT-7 on Turbo mode with 2x RCR123A 3.0V LiFePO4 batteries: For this shot, focal length shortened to 67mm to show more of the spill & ISO was 160 (I had been doing other shots that day & forgot to set it back to ISO100) - definitely enough light to light up almost any room in almost any house.





Haven't had a chance to re-shoot the SRT-7 now that I have 18650 batteries.


----------



## TMedina

cland72 said:


> As soon as I can get over the urge to save money, I'm pretty sure I'll be ordering a Streamlight Seige. I've read great things about it on this forum.



The Siege is on my short list too.



> I agree that single mode lights (Surefire 6P with M61LLL, for example) are going to be more reliable than, say, a FourSevens QPL, but with moon mode available on the 47 light, that would be my primary light, whlie the 6P stayed in reserve in case the 47 failed. It's pretty hard to hold a 6P in your mouth while you work with both hands.



Not for nothing, but that's why I also have headlamps. Although push come to shove, I have a couple of multi-mode lights lying around with moonlight and firefly modes - I just refuse to carry one as a stand-alone unit because of my (perhaps irrational) fear of reliability, as well as variable power consumption.

With a single mode light, as long as you're tracking (more or less) how often you're using it, you know (roughly) how much battery life you have. With a multi-mode that you're flipping back and forth, you run the risk of powering out because you didn't realize just how long you were running in high, or even medium.

But, at the end of the day, there isn't a right answer, except for the one that works for you.


----------



## LowLumen

blah9 said:


> I've been disappointed with lanterns though. I don't like the glare they create. I much more prefer ceiling-bouncing lights or some other technique of situating flashlights so they don't point at my face. And I also seem to do better that way because then the light is often pointed more toward the things I want to be illuminated rather than in 360 degrees. I guess my real favorite is a headlamp now that I purchased one I am very happy with though. This has drastically reduced my annoyances with glare.



I'm with you. I had a few too many power out nights with blinding spots from lanterns. I much prefer a fully shrouded light and to keep the source completely out of the field of view. I still have some low power lanterns but at the culmination of this attitude I ripped the top off of the 4 & 8 D cell Coleman lanterns and retro-fitted goose neck desk lamps with neutral XM-L2. Very nice. (and stylish too) My other favorite for indoor power outage is the (shrouded) mule light, hanging over the table, kitchen counter, etc.


----------



## Romanko

I live in Ukraine, Kiew. And I hope that I won't need all of this. Some of you know what is heppening in Ukraine, Crimea. Russia forces are everywhere in Crimea.
I would buy some more batteries and flashlights but at this situation I would better buy some more food.
I've got this.
Rechargeable:
3x NCR18650B 3.7V Li-Ion 3400 mAh
4x AW RCR16340
8x Sanyo Eneloop XX 2550 mAh (UWXB)
3x Sanyo Eneloop 2000 mAh
4x VARTA Ready2Use
2x Ansmann but they are very old and doesn't work well

Primary batteries:
51x AA Duracell procell
8x VARTA LONGLIFE EXTRA
10x mix of used AA batteries but they work on low mode.
3x AAA batteries
12x CR123a SUREFIRE
4x CR123a that were used in camera
3x cr2 out of date


----------



## callmaster

Romanko said:


> I live in Ukraine, Kiew. And I hope that I won't need all of this. Some of you know what is heppening in Ukraine, Crimea. Russia forces are everywhere in Crimea.
> I would buy some more batteries and flashlights but at this situation I would better buy some more food.
> I've got this.
> Rechargeable:
> 3x NCR18650B 3.7V Li-Ion 3400 mAh
> 4x AW RCR16340
> 8x Sanyo Eneloop XX 2550 mAh (UWXB)
> 3x Sanyo Eneloop 2000 mAh
> 4x VARTA Ready2Use
> 2x Ansmann but they are very old and doesn't work well
> 
> Primary batteries:
> 51x AA Duracell procell
> 8x VARTA LONGLIFE EXTRA
> 10x mix of used AA batteries but they work on low mode.
> 3x AAA batteries
> 12x CR123a SUREFIRE
> 4x CR123a that were used in camera
> 3x cr2 out of date



What the hell is going on with the world? How bad is it over there?


----------



## Romanko

callmaster said:


> What the hell is going on with the world? How bad is it over there?


Some of russian politics think that Crimea is a russian land. And they want Crimea to enter Russia. Russian helicopters are flying over Crimea and russia forces block ukrainian bases. Happily nobody is shooteng each other. But there could be provocations if somebody will be shot down and poop will hit the fan.


----------



## davis19942003

I said I seldom have power outage last week, but there will be one on 19th March because of annual electricity checking
that inspection will be in the day time. 

I love headlamps more than lanterns, but I am still a newbie so I want to try more headlamps and lanterns
I can see many stores sell Energizer 4D LED folding lantern. Is it useful in a power outage?

I hope the situation in Crimea will get stable soon.


----------



## TMedina

Romanko said:


> Some of russian politics think that Crimea is a russian land. And they want Crimea to enter Russia. Russian helicopters are flying over Crimea and russia forces block ukrainian bases. Happily nobody is shooteng each other. But there could be provocations if somebody will be shot down and poop will hit the fan.



Good luck - keep your head down.


----------



## StarHalo

Romanko said:


> I live in Ukraine, Kiew.



Do you have power outages often there?


----------



## Romanko

StarHalo said:


> Do you have power outages often there?


At the moment everything is OK. There were no outages.


----------



## blah9

LowLumen said:


> I'm with you. I had a few too many power out nights with blinding spots from lanterns. I much prefer a fully shrouded light and to keep the source completely out of the field of view. I still have some low power lanterns but at the culmination of this attitude I ripped the top off of the 4 & 8 D cell Coleman lanterns and retro-fitted goose neck desk lamps with neutral XM-L2. Very nice. (and stylish too) My other favorite for indoor power outage is the (shrouded) mule light, hanging over the table, kitchen counter, etc.



That's a great idea! Perhaps I should do a project like that as well. If I don't do anything except extend the wires to fit the internals into a different package then it shouldn't be too hard of a job. (I haven't done any light mods before so this might be a good introduction project).


----------



## blah9

Romanko said:


> At the moment everything is OK. There were no outages.



Good luck and be safe.


----------



## Monocrom

callmaster said:


> What the hell is going on with the world? How bad is it over there?



On the brink of a violent and bloody Civil war breaking out at literally any minute. My mother is Ukrainian, and one of my aunts and cousin still live there. Mom has been in touch. Thankfully the two of them are not at ground zero of where the tensions are flaring up. But they're close enough to where if things do break out, they'll need to flee the area. 

Hopefully cooler, more rational heads will prevail.... Though more likely, some vodka-soaked idiot with a gun is going to just open fire and trigger a bloody mess.


----------



## Poppy

Monocrom said:


> Hopefully cooler, more rational heads will prevail.... Though more likely, some vodka-soaked idiot with a gun is going to just open fire and trigger a bloody mess.


Certainly that has happened many times throughout history. Let's pray that cooler heads prevail.

Without making this a full blown prepper discussion, please consider, what aspects of your life may be affected if there is a prolonged power failure. 

Consider that you may have advanced warning that a power outage may occur (such as a meteorological forecast of an impending storm, or a Russian invasion of your homeland), what steps might you take to prepare?

For example, we recently had a number of winter storms including record-breaking low temps, and inches of snow. I had read Sub_Umbra 's water epiphany thread, and always felt comfortable with the fact that I live a short distance to a large detention pond, and within 1/2 mile to a small reservoir. It recently struck me that they are both currently frozen! I lined a couple of 32 gallon garbage cans with plastic liners, and filled them with water, and put them in the garage. If the water lines break due to the frigid weather, or electricity fails, and for some reason they can't pump the water to my elevation, we'll be OK for a while.

Additionally, I made sure all cars' fuel tanks were topped off, including the van we rarely use, and the portable fuel containers for the generator. I also topped off the batteries in my 18650 flashlights, and the spare batteries that I keep at 80% charge in the refrigerator. 

What did I miss? What would you do?


----------



## bluemax_1

Regarding battery storage: Does anyone have a link I can read that shows some testing about battery storage temperatures vs longevity? I know that high temps (over 80-90f?) aren't good for battery longevity, but is there empirical evidence that shows that storing batteries at significantly below room temp (~70f) leads to significantly better battery life/longevity? Because as everyone has noticed, battery performance tends to suffer at colder temps, which means batteries stored cold would need to be warmed up to get maximum performance out of them. I DO recall way back in the day (LOL), buying 35mm film when it was on sale and storing it in the refrigerator because it prevented deterioration better when unused for long periods if it was kept cold.


Max


----------



## Poppy

Max,
I keep my extra batteries in the refrigerator at 80-90% charge. They'll last longer... have a longer shelf life if I kept them at a lower charge, but I want them ready to go if I suddenly need them.

Here is where I got the temperature information.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_store_batteries


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> Max,
> I keep my extra batteries in the refrigerator at 80-90% charge. They'll last longer... have a longer shelf life if I kept them at a lower charge, but I want them ready to go if I suddenly need them.
> 
> Here is where I got the temperature information.
> http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_store_batteries


Thanks for the link. Bookmarked it. According to that site, it appears that there are advantages (for battery longevity) to storing the batteries down to freezing temps.


Max


----------



## StarHalo

bluemax_1 said:


> it appears that there are advantages (for battery longevity) to storing the batteries down to freezing temps.



It's not worth the effort; you're looking at a low-single-digit difference from room temp storage, and then when you take the battery out of cold storage, it'll be wet with condensation, so you'll have to carefully dry it and then allow it to come up to room temp before attempting to put it in your device. That's not "ready to go" compared to just grabbing a loose cell from a drawer somewhere and slapping it in.


----------



## bluemax_1

StarHalo said:


> It's not worth the effort; you're looking at a low-single-digit difference from room temp storage, and then when you take the battery out of cold storage, it'll be wet with condensation, so you'll have to carefully dry it and then allow it to come up to room temp before attempting to put it in your device. That's not "ready to go" compared to just grabbing a loose cell from a drawer somewhere and slapping it in.


A valid point too. I suppose it would only really be a consideration for long term storage cells that aren't really going to be used (I've got some new SureFire Lithium CR123 cells that are ~10 years old that I haven't used since switching to 18650s. I recently tested a few on a digital multimeter and in some lights and they still work fine. I guess those might be OK in the fridge since they tend to work pretty decent in cold temps too).


Max


----------



## Poppy

StarHalo said:


> It's not worth the effort; you're looking at a low-single-digit difference from room temp storage, and then when you take the battery out of cold storage, it'll be wet with condensation, so you'll have to carefully dry it and then allow it to come up to room temp before attempting to put it in your device. That's not "ready to go" compared to just grabbing a loose cell from a drawer somewhere and slapping it in.



Maybe I don't understand the data presented in the table at batteryuniversity, but here's my take on it.

Stored at 100% charge at freezing (or just above it in the refrigerator) in three months the battery will lose 4% of its charge.
Stored at 100% charge at room temps it'll lose 15-20% of its charge in the same three months.

Perhaps the information is poorly written, but it would seem that they infer that the battery will lose that much capacity, but we know from experience, that can't be true.

Regarding condensation, If you store the batteries in a zip lock bag and get out as much air as possible before storing them, you can pull them out and let them come up to room temperature, any condensation that occurs, will occur on the outside of the bag.


----------



## StarHalo

Beer n' popcorn


----------



## Monocrom

No microwave?.... No problem. 

(Nice popcorn hack, S.H.)


----------



## LGT

StarHalo said:


> Beer n' popcorn


----------



## Poppy

StarHalo said:


> Beer n' popcorn



StarHalo,
Making a popcorn popper out of a beer can is quite clever :thumbsup:

I suppose in an all electric apartment, and in a power failure situation, a person could make a "penny stove" out of another beer can, and have a party!


----------



## Poppy

@StarHalo Geeez, I hadn't seen a single reference to this year's 2014 Power Outage Practice until I actually did a google search for "Earth Hour" I'm a little upset that I missed it this year.

It seems that YOU have been vigilant in posting this annual event, I guess in the Cafe section of the site. Would you please consider posting an annual link in this thread to your announcement?


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> It seems that YOU have been vigilant in posting this annual event, I guess in the Cafe section of the site. Would you please consider posting an annual link in this thread to your announcement?



Yeah, I didn't get an Earth Hour thread up this year until the night before the event, so there wasn't much of a reminder for folks who weren't aware of the date. If this thread is still alive next year, I'll link it.


----------



## StarHalo

Power outages were up a full 15% from 2011-2012; around 2,169 power outages were reported in 2008 compared to 3,236 blackouts reported last year. Other stats:

- The state with the most blackouts in 2013 was California, where 464 power outages were reported.

- Nine states reported more than 100 blackouts in 2013

- The average power outage lasted 197 minutes, a little over three hours.


----------



## Poppy

Hooked on Fenix has been updating a thread on increased earthquake activity 
I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea to check your power failure readiness every once in a while.


----------



## LGT

Poppy said:


> StarHalo,
> Making a popcorn popper out of a beer can is quite clever :thumbsup:
> 
> I suppose in an all electric apartmeelectricand in a power failure situation, a person could make a "penny stove" out of another beer can, and have a party!





StarHalo said:


> Power outages were up a full 15% from 2011-2012; around 2,169 power outages were reported in 2008 compared to 3,236 blackouts reported last year. Other stats:
> 
> - The state with the most blackouts in 2013 was California, where 464 power outages were reported.
> 
> - Nine states reported more than 100 blackouts in 2013
> 
> - The average power outage lasted 197 minutes, a little over three hours.


Excellent post. Until about three years ago, electric companies were cutting their forces thinking they could just call in contractors to help with restoration after a serious storm. But, as I've thought, if a hurricane bounces up the East Coast making landfall in multiple locations, there just aren't going to be enough lineworkers to repair the damage. Have enough lighting for at least one week.


----------



## LanthanumK

We are a family of eight (six kids). During Hurricane Sandy, we lost power for 5 days. We did have an inverter that we used to power the refrigerator, stove, and fluorescent lamp occasionally. Normally, it was off to conserve fuel. Without the lamp, we each used handheld flashlights. None of us had any good headlamps at the time. At the time I had a huge collection of homemade and dollar store flashlights. Personally, I used one of those forever shake flashlights with a capacitor inside and a 5mm LED and aspheric in front. It put out less than 1 lumen but was enough to light the way most of the time. I had my SK68 clone and halogen spotlight ready if additional light was needed. Most others used the 3xAAA 9 LED 25 lumen flashlights with the included heavy duty batteries. If room lighting was needed, we had a crank 19-LED "spotlight" from Harbor Freight, with a very floody beam and about 40 lumen output. That was enough for bathroom use and similar tasks.

After the hurricane, we purchased a crank lantern from Harbor Freight (not recommended) and the Rayovac Sportsman lantern. Lanterns really light up the whole room, and the Rayovac is very compact and runs a long time on a set of D cells.

I would recommend getting a Streamlight the Siege lantern for its great runtime. Keep it stocked with fresh alkalines. As much as I dislike alkalines, it is still a great choice. Also get a crank/shake-powered capacitor-based device. Batteries degrade after sitting on the shelf for several years, capacitors always charge right up. The disadvantage is shorter runtime. Use it if there is reason to suspect that the battery supply is running low.
Get a headlamp. A cheap Petzl will do. The Tikkina 2 has great runtime on 3xAAA lithium. This is useful for working in the dark.
Get a high powered LED flashlight that can run on AA. Keep it stocked with AA lithium. The selection is huge.
Get a multitude of AA/AAA-based single mode lights for the kids. Be sure the runtime is long enough. Keep them all over the house. Use alkaline if necessary.


----------



## StarHalo

LanthanumK said:


> During Hurricane Sandy



We were all hanging out here; a legendary thread if you want to see how CPF handles a weather disaster/mass outage.


----------



## Poppy

LanthanumK said:


> We are a family of eight (six kids). During Hurricane Sandy, we lost power for 5 days. We did have an inverter that we used to power the refrigerator, stove, and fluorescent lamp occasionally. Normally, it was off to conserve fuel. Without the lamp, we each used handheld flashlights. None of us had any good headlamps at the time. At the time I had a huge collection of homemade and dollar store flashlights. Personally, I used one of those *forever shake flashlights with a capacitor inside and a 5mm LED and aspheric in front.* It put out less than 1 lumen but was enough to light the way most of the time.<SNIP>.



I don't know if the FOREVER brand is any better than the ones that I have had, but IIRC the run-time was measured in the seconds, not even minutes, and that it took more energy than it was worth, except, I guess in extreme circumstances.


----------



## braddy

The nightstar 3rd generation is the real deal in shake lights. It will produce a tiny amount of light for up to a couple of hours, and will hold some charge for over a week.

"Shaking the light for 30 seconds will charge the capacitor and give the user up to 20 minutes of usable light from the StarCore 5mm LED inside the housing. This new iteration of the light includes several improvements which we will discuss.
(snip)
the new NightStar (as of January 2005) is using a new LED called the StarCore LED. This LED produces about 2.5x the amount of light of the second generation Nightstar. 
(snip)
Important things to note: The runtime statements by the manufacturer have changed dramatically since the original Nightstar came out. Originally they said you would get 5 minutes of runtime on 30 seconds of shaking. Now the instructions say you will get 20 minutes of usable light on 30 seconds of shaking."

The review http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/ait_nightstar2sc.htm


----------



## Poppy

National Hurricane Preparedness Week 2014 runs from May 25th through May 31st.

History teaches that a lack of hurricane awareness and preparation are common threads among all major hurricane disasters. By knowing your vulnerability and what actions you should take, you can reduce the effects of a hurricane disaster. more...


----------



## Poppy

LanthanumK said:


> Personally, I used one of those forever shake flashlights with a capacitor inside and a 5mm LED and aspheric in front.* It put out less than 1 lumen* but was enough to light the way most of the time. I had my SK68 clone and halogen spotlight ready if additional light was needed.





braddy said:


> The nightstar 3rd generation is the real deal in shake lights. It will produce a tiny amount of light for up to a couple of hours, and will hold some charge for over a week.
> 
> the instructions say you will get 20 minutes *of usable light* on 30 seconds of shaking."



I would be very hard pressed to put one of those shake lights into action. One lumen is not enough to make me comfortable.


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> I would be very hard pressed to put one of those shake lights into action. One lumen is not enough to make me comfortable.



Yep, 1 lumen isn't much at all, but I suppose for folks who haven't stored enough batteries and/or a way to recharge their rechargeables, it's better than nothing and still usable to carefully get around in the dark.


Max


----------



## Monocrom

bluemax_1 said:


> Yep, 1 lumen isn't much at all, but I suppose for folks who haven't stored enough batteries and/or a way to recharge their rechargeables, it's better than nothing and still usable to carefully get around in the dark.
> 
> 
> Max



A lit candle likely puts out more than 1 lumen.


----------



## braddy

Poppy said:


> I would be very hard pressed to put one of those shake lights into action. One lumen is not enough to make me comfortable.




I don't know that the third generation Nightstar is 1 lumen, or how much light it takes to make you comfortable for emergency use, but for a forever light that actually works, it is phenomenal, it is a truly post apocalyptic flashlight that needs zero, support, it can go into a cave and remain usable for decades.

Here is an old review. http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/ait_nightstar2sc.htm


----------



## inetdog

My early shake light still generates and the LED works, but only in "shake/strobe" mode since the super capacitor was the life limiting factor.


----------



## bluemax_1

braddy said:


> I don't know that the third generation Nightstar is 1 lumen, or how much light it takes to make you comfortable for emergency use, but for a forever light that actually works, it is phenomenal, it is a truly post apocalyptic flashlight that needs zero, support, it can go into a cave and remain usable for decades.
> 
> Here is an old review. http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/ait_nightstar2sc.htm





inetdog said:


> My early shake light still generates and the LED works, but only in "shake/strobe" mode since the super capacitor was the life limiting factor.


Yep. The capacitors which hold the temporary charge eventually die too. The Seiko Kinetic that I had years ago lasted about 6-7 years before the capacitor died rendering the watch inoperable.


Max


----------



## Burgess

Just for comparison --


I saw (previously) on CPF this statement:


* Wikipedia claims a candle gives off about 13 lumens of visible light while burning 40W of energy.*


. . . . of course, it isn't focused very well !


_


----------



## braddy

bluemax_1 said:


> Yep. The capacitors which hold the temporary charge eventually die too. The Seiko Kinetic that I had years ago lasted about 6-7 years before the capacitor died rendering the watch inoperable.
> 
> 
> Max


Do you guys even know about the Nightstar? People don't seem to addressing it specifically

“What is the shelf life of NightStar and LightStorm flashlights?”
"The shelf life of every NightStar and LightStorm flashlight is limited to the capacitor – and the capacitor’s lifetime is driven primarily by the average storage temperature. In hot environments where the average year round temperature is 80ºF (27ºC), such as Phoenix, Arizona the capacitor will reach the 85% storage capacity point after approximately 19.7 years. By comparison, the capacitor will reach the same point after 78.8 years if subjected to the average year round temperature of 45ºF (7ºC) common to Minneapolis, Minnesota. In fact, the expected service life will double for every 10ºC reduction in temperature, as predicted by the Arrhenius Equation given by 2(70 – x)/10, where x is the average temperature in degrees Celsius . "


----------



## Poppy

I got this from their site: appliedinnotech dot com


> *NightStar jP No Battery Flashlight Technical Specifications*
> 
> 
> 
> LED Illumination Range = 50 feet (15m)
> LED Beam Diameter = 12 feet (3.6m)
> Lumen Output = 15 lm (laser collimation)
> LED Power = 0.10 watt
> Charge Time = 30 seconds
> Light Duration = 15 minutes
> 
> Panasonic 1.5 farad gold film capacitor holds an electrical charge for months.


----------



## braddy

What are we supposed to be learning from it?


----------



## Poppy

I don't think those shake lights are particularly good.
From - how stuff works: "a 1-farad capacitor can hold 1 amp-second of electrons at 1 volt." There's NOT a lot of energy stored in that little 1.5 farad capacitor.

A single AAA battery has 1 amp HOUR @ 1.5 volts. The AAA battery has about 3,600 times as much energy!

I thought that I had a capacitor based shake light, but perhaps it was one with dead batteries, and it was so worthless I threw it away. At any rate, after shaking it, it turned on (perhaps at 15 lumens) and rapidly declined to little more than a glow. It's my understanding that capacitors release their energy rapidly (in a flash) that's why they are used in a camera flash/strobe. I guess with resistors, the energy release can be spread out a bit.

I still have a few cheap shake lights, and I took one apart last night, to discover that the "capacitor" was really a pair of CR2023 batteries. 

With the batteries removed, as long as I shook the light, it generated perhaps 15 lumens of light, (maybe less) so 30 seconds of shaking gave 30 seconds of 15 lumens. I suspect that with a capacitor for storage, you might get 5 lumens for a few minutes, and one lumen for a bit longer. Vigorously shaking the light takes too much energy, for too little reward. 

IMO a dynamo light that has replaceable rechargeable battery would be a better recommendation.


----------



## BloodLust

The house is already 100% LED. Even my circular lights are LED inside instead of a circular fluorescent tube.

For cooling, I have a rechargeable desk fan with a SLA inside with LED nightlights. It can run off AC or the battery.
I also have some smaller USB fans which I can plug into a USB powerbank for some personal cooling.

For cooking, a single burner propane stove,a propane camp stove and an Esbit stove for backup.

For emergency lighting, I have a small 3x or 4x AA Coleman camping lantern in each room.
Lately though, I'm enjoying the output and tint from the Energizer Light Fusion 2-in-1 that the wife gave me. 100 lumens from the side panel. pretty even lighting. Adjustable output as well and simple interface. I might end up replacing or adding these to each room.
The bathrooms have a 2x AA LED flashlight for power failures and my daughter's bathroom has a plug-in rechargeable flashlight

I keep a pack of AA and AAA from costco for backup.
Some Eveready D-Cells for the 3D Maglite.
I have Eneloops and Goal Zero LSD AAs and AAAs which I can charge with a Goal Zero Guide 10 Plus and Nomad 7 solar panel.

For personal lights, I EDC a Klarus XT11 820 lumens and am thinking of getting the lens kit for it and a Fenix LD10 with the diffuser wand attachment in case I need a lamp. I just tail stand in or hang it via lanyard.
Wife has a Fenix E01 for EDC and am thinking of replacing it with an LD02. Still small but with a clicky for easier 1-hand operation then the E01 will be her backup.
I got everyone else in the household an Eveready 1x AAA flashlight with wand light with each person having a different color. Only $4.99 in Target near the camping section. It's like a glow stick but runs on AAA rather than expensive coin cells. The flashlight part, I used a frosting spray to diffuse the beam to make it more usable since it did not have any spill. Now, it's just right for indoor use. The wand function makes it a lamp if needed.

The stairway has a socket with an emergency light plugged in which automatically lights up during power failures.
Will be switching these with the industrial emergency lamps so it's more robust and has a longer runtime.


----------



## braddy

I own a Nightstar 3rd gen., and as far as I know, it is the only serious shake light ever made.

With 20 minutes of light from 30 seconds of shaking, and producing some small amount of light for up to two hours and with a shelf life of many decades , it is a heck of a post-apocalypse light.


----------



## braddy

braddy said:


> I own a Nightstar 3rd gen., and as far as I know, it is the only serious shake light ever made.
> 
> With 20 minutes of light from 30 seconds of shaking, and producing some small amount of light for up to two hours and with a shelf life of many decades , it is a heck of a post-apocalypse light.



Correction, after more than 4 hours, there is still enough light coming from it to identify a key and the key lock, after the light having sat for a couple of years, I had given it the full three minute shaking to fully charge the capacitor.

6 hours later the beam still faintly covers the width of a door at 8 feet, and now at 13 hours, the capacitor still shows about a 50 cent size circle on a wall from a few inches of distance.


----------



## Poppy

BloodLust said:


> The house is already 100% LED. Even my circular lights are LED inside instead of a circular fluorescent tube.
> <BIG SNIP>
> The stairway has a socket with an emergency light plugged in which automatically lights up during power failures.
> *Will be switching these with the industrial emergency lamps so it's more robust and has a longer runtime.*



It looks like you have your house very nicely set up for a power outage. :thumbsup:

I like to gift out those emergency auto on flashlights. Before you switch them out for more industrial strength, you might want to take a look at the industrial strength run-times. Most of them are only 90 minutes. I thought for sure that the LED units would give MUCH more run-time than their incan predecessors, but they put smaller batteries with fewer mah in the LED units resulting in similar run-times.

I converted a few incans to run LED tent lights instead of the 2x4 watt incan bulbs (or whatever were in there) and they'll get 8 hours run-time, or more, but now that I know of 18650 batteries and lights, it was too much effort to do the mods. IMO the plug in the wall flashlights that come on automatically are enough, when strategically placed, to allow the occupants to safely navigate the house and obtain whatever lights are a part of the larger strategy.


----------



## BloodLust

Poppy said:


> It looks like you have your house very nicely set up for a power outage. :thumbsup:
> 
> I like to gift out those emergency auto on flashlights. Before you switch them out for more industrial strength, you might want to take a look at the industrial strength run-times. Most of them are only 90 minutes. I thought for sure that the LED units would give MUCH more run-time than their incan predecessors, but they put smaller batteries with fewer mah in the LED units resulting in similar run-times.
> 
> I converted a few incans to run LED tent lights instead of the 2x4 watt incan bulbs (or whatever were in there) and they'll get 8 hours run-time, or more, but now that I know of 18650 batteries and lights, it was too much effort to do the mods. IMO the plug in the wall flashlights that come on automatically are enough, when strategically placed, to allow the occupants to safely navigate the house and obtain whatever lights are a part of the larger strategy.



Having grown up in a place with constant power outages, I had to adapt.
My mom always gave me flak when I was a kid and kept playing with lights. A few years ago, a major typhoon crossed paths with a tropical monsoon. Heavy rains with severe thunderstorms and over cat 3 hurricane winds (it reached cat 5 before it hit landfall).
We were out of electricity for at least 4 days to a week. I had enough lights to supply the household. I gave my mom a Fenix E05 as a gift after that and it's been on her keychain ever since.

There hasn't been much or long power outages lately. Just last month but for only about 30mins.

Regarding the industrial lights, I'm getting the LED ones. The ones for office building corridors. Stated runtime is 16hrs.

You're right about the newer ones or a lot of the models having smaller batteries. I've been seeing a lot with just a 2hr runtime.

I'm already planning a small solar array and just expand when I have more funds. Even just to run the fridge so I won't have to worry about food spoiling especially since we travel a lot for work. I don't want to arrive at home to spoiled food.


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight

braddy said:


> Correction, after more than 4 hours, there is still enough light coming from it to identify a key and the key lock, after the light having sat for a couple of years, I had given it the full three minute shaking to fully charge the capacitor.
> 
> 6 hours later the beam still faintly covers the width of a door at 8 feet, and now at 13 hours, the capacitor still shows about a 50 cent size circle on a wall from a few inches of distance.



Is it a capacitor, or a battery? Most hand-powered lights I know use a low-capacity battery in them to store charge. If it's really a capacitor, then the shelf-life of the light is probably decades or longer. If it's a battery, it may no longer hold a charge after more than a decade.

I have a couple of crank lights and radios, but I would not consider them reliable enough for a power outage, specifically because I can't really trust the battery will still be good. Far easier and more reliable to keep a supply of fresh batteries handy. My power-outage lights are the same as my EDC lights. At low power, and with a large supply of Eneloops ready to go, I'll be dead long before my lights run out of batteries.


----------



## braddy

It is a capacitor in a $40.00 shakelight, and this morning when I walked past it in the hall, I noticed that it was still putting out out a faint (non-usable) light against the wall 3 or 4 inches from it, after being on for 37 hours. The led is still glowing after 42 hours when I look directly at it.


----------



## bluemax_1

braddy said:


> It is a capacitor in a $40.00 shakelight, and this morning when I walked past it in the hall, I noticed that it was still putting out out a faint (non-usable) light against the wall 3 or 4 inches from it, after being on for 37 hours. The led is still glowing after 42 hours when I look directly at it.



How long have you had this particular light?


Max


----------



## braddy

Hard to say, I bought it at a garage sale, several years ago.

Here is a review of it. http://www.shake-flashlights.com/nightstar-review.html


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight

braddy said:


> It is a capacitor in a $40.00 shakelight, and this morning when I walked past it in the hall, I noticed that it was still putting out out a faint (non-usable) light against the wall 3 or 4 inches from it, after being on for 37 hours. The led is still glowing after 42 hours when I look directly at it.



Since voltage falls off as the capacitor discharges, assuming the light is unregulated it could stay lit as long as the capacitor has the ability to hold some charge. Self discharge will eventually drain it, even if the the light is off, but that may take several days for it to be completely drained. Probably self-discharges half the capacity every 15-30 minutes, which may be more than the LED actually uses.


----------



## braddy

Like most here I have an incredible array of long running flashlights, rechargeable batteries, and charging options.

I would be fine for years with flashlights and headlamps if we lost electricity, but it is neat having a true post apocalyptic flashlight, it would be great to sit for decades as a basement or shelter light.


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight

braddy said:


> I would be fine for years with flashlights and headlamps if we lost electricity, but it is neat having a true post apocalyptic flashlight, it would be great to sit for decades as a basement or shelter light.



Ah, you want to be the guy from the Twilight Zone episode called "Shelter Skelter".


----------



## bluemax_1

braddy said:


> Hard to say, I bought it at a garage sale, several years ago.
> 
> Here is a review of it. http://www.shake-flashlights.com/nightstar-review.html



Looks like the Nightstar JP is the current model at $55 - $60.

What little I could find about long term user reviews seems like they continue to function after several years which is a good sign. Wonder how many folks have one that is 10+ years old and still functioning normally (company has been selling shakelights since '97 apparently).


Max


----------



## KITROBASKIN

bluemax_1 said:


> Looks like the Nightstar JP is the current model at $55 - $60.
> 
> What little I could find about long term user reviews seems like they continue to function after several years which is a good sign. Wonder how many folks have one that is 10+ years old and still functioning normally (company has been selling shakelights since '97 apparently).
> 
> 
> Max



I'm guessing my two NightStar flashlights are about 6-7 years old. Rarely used but still function fine for emergency use. Not sure if it is a very useful light level past 5-10 minutes though, like reading. But it really does not take much to shake it back to full brightness (maybe 3 to 5 lumens: I have a larger one and a smaller one)

The Pak-Lite deserves mention. I use 9 volt batteries for other reasons and must change them out yearly regardless of state of charge, so... 


Sent from my iPad using Candlepowerforums


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## braddy

I own a Pak-lite and think that all beginner preppers should start with one or two of those as their first prepper light for sustained blackouts.

I keep a couple of fresh 9 volt batteries, but I save all of my old 9 volt batteries.

There will always time in the future to throw the old 9 volts away if I never end up needing to vampire their remaining juice.


----------



## bluemax_1

KITROBASKIN said:


> I'm guessing my two NightStar flashlights are about 6-7 years old. Rarely used but still function fine for emergency use. Not sure if it is a very useful light level past 5-10 minutes though, like reading. But it really does not take much to shake it back to full brightness (maybe 3 to 5 lumens: I have a larger one and a smaller one)
> 
> The Pak-Lite deserves mention. I use 9 volt batteries for other reasons and must change them out yearly regardless of state of charge, so...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Candlepowerforums





braddy said:


> I own a Pak-lite and think that all beginner preppers should start with one or two of those as their first prepper light for sustained blackouts.
> 
> I keep a couple of fresh 9 volt batteries, but I save all of my old 9 volt batteries.
> 
> There will always time in the future to throw the old 9 volts away if I never end up needing to vampire their remaining juice.


Yep, I've got Pak-Lites. In an extended blackout, no one else is looking for 9V batteries, even if you run out of vampiring all the available 9Vs in the house.


Max


----------



## reppans

I'm sure I've mentioned it earlier in this thread, but absolutely, the 9V is an important emergency cell. During the week-long Superstorm Sandy power outage around here, I made it point of checking battery availability in stores before, during and after. Everything was quickly wiped out, and stayed that way, except small button cells and 9Vs, which remained available thoughout. 

That said, I'm not a big fan of the Pak-lite (and I have a few) since any decent sub-/low- lumen AA light can run on the AAs, AAAs, and 9Vs (6xAAAAs) found in the myriad of household devices. AAA>AA adapters make it really easy, but in a pinch, a piece of tinfoil and $-bills make fine battery spacers too. Pak-lite specs 600 hrs with an unregulated ~0.4 lms, and I've tested my AA pocket EDC on a regulated 0.3 lm @ 360 hrs (well, 1xAAAA @ 60 hrs). 

At home, I have RV generator/12v/solar rechargeable options, so it would be long long time before I would need to resort to the 9V for emergency power, but I were to be caught away from home, it would be a totally different story. Still, a Pak-lite is not something I would ever EDC, so for me, a wide voltage (0.9-4.2v) "AA" flashlight that can not only run on AAA/9Vs, but also any cell between a CR123 and 18650 is the way to go.... and, of course, that piece of MacGyver tinfoil in my wallet .


----------



## TMedina

Which makes me wonder about the viability of a recharger powered by 9Vs. Or creating a better-regulated LED light system with a 9V.

Hmm...maybe a DIY project for an Altoids tin...


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight

TMedina said:


> Which makes me wonder about the viability of a recharger powered by 9Vs. Or creating a better-regulated LED light system with a 9V.



Why? As reppans suggests, just cannibalize a 9 volt for the AAAA cells in it, and use them along with some paper and tinfoil in your AA light. By the time you're that desperate, you're probably cannibalizing your neighbours for real, so you may as well snack on their delicious batteries as well.


----------



## reppans

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Why? As reppans suggests, just cannibalize a 9 volt for the AAAA cells in it, and use them along with some paper and tinfoil in your AA light. By the time you're that desperate, you're probably cannibalizing your neighbours for real, so you may as well snack on their delicious batteries as well.



Well, truth be told, a AAAA is only going to be able to efficiently power up to ~3 lms. Beyond that, the current drain on the tiny alkaline really starts killing the cell capacity, so you kind of need to be a sub-/low-lumen, night-vision fan to appreciate it.... like me . Then again, if we're really at the point of scrounging for 9Vs, then I suspect there will be very few sources of light pollution to impair our night vision .


----------



## markr6

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> By the time you're that desperate, you're probably cannibalizing your neighbours for real, so you may as well snack on their delicious batteries as well.



LOL! I pretty much think this every time I see this thread. There's a TON of overthinking here IMO, but like they say...you can't be TOO prepared. Just not something I'm going to spend a lot of time on. My current gear can last me a month without even trying. Actually, make that MONTHS. 2 cars in garage with battery, charger, etc...seems like it would get me by forever.


----------



## TMedina

Heh. Overthinking keeps me awake at work.

As long as I'm sporting a Pak-Lite and another 9V flashlight, I might as well daydream contingency plans for optimizing 9V usage. I'm still toying with the idea of gator-clipping a 9V to one of my longer-running Malkoff drop-ins. For proof of concept, naturally. 

As for a charger, I was thinking more along the lines of a phone charger fueled by 9V batteries (another nod to Sandy and the availability of 9Vs and not much else).


----------



## reppans

TMedina said:


> Heh. Overthinking keeps me awake at work.
> 
> As long as I'm sporting a Pak-Lite and another 9V flashlight, I might as well daydream contingency plans for optimizing 9V usage. I'm still toying with the idea of gator-clipping a 9V to one of my longer-running Malkoff drop-ins. For proof of concept, naturally.
> 
> As for a charger, I was thinking more along the lines of a phone charger fueled by 9V batteries (another nod to Sandy and the availability of 9Vs and not much else).



Well said.... 

TM and I are also EDC(F) enthusiasts which implies being away from home only prepared with whatever is on your person or in your bag. I've been stuck in Manhattan for both 9/11 and the Northeastern Blackout of 2003 contemplating loonngggg walks home so now I like to overthink my power options when on foot with limited supplies (including while backpacking).

Interesting to hear the 9V commonality. Most of my portable camping, travel, emergency and EDC gadgets are AA Eneloop based, and I do EDC a 2xAA > USB charger for my smartphone. One of the primary functions of my flashlights is to be a spare battery container for my other gadgets. Off grid backpacking, for example, I'll run a 3V CRAA in my 1xAA EDC, which gives me ~400 lumens/hours output/runtime yet can also singly power any of my other 2AA gadgets. I just think it's great how a flashlight can regurgitate the high octane fuel required by the smartphone yet still be sufficiently useful on breadcrumbs (AAAAs).... or any other cell I can scrounge up, 18650 or smaller, in size.


----------



## BloodLust

A few insights on my preps:
I have lots of flashlights but not enough lanterns. I have the small cheap handheld ones and an
Energizer Light Fusion 2-in1 flashlight/lantern at 100 lumens but it's barely adequate if doing
some intensive work. Will be getting a higher lumen lantern when I head to the US this month.

USB power banks are the greatest! I have a small USB desk fan that's plugged into one and has
been going for more than 2 hours. Charging my electronics with the other power bank.
I have the Goal Zero Guide 10+ and Nomad 7 solar panel but it's my last resort so I don't have to
burn through my AAs. I'm reserving my rechargeables for my lights.

Since we just moved into this house a few months ago and it only started raining recently, it
showed me some leaks I have to fix.


For extended power outage, lights aren't a problem. My problem is food spoilage though.
Our place is a really small townhouse with only outdoor parking so no garage.
I want to get a small portable generator for emergencies at least just for the fridge and charge
lights and devices.
Where do I put it though? How about gasoline storage? I don't want to keep gas inside the
house.
One idea of mine is that I can run out and get gas in cans/containers only when there is a storm
warning and just pour whatever isn't used into the car.
I use unleaded 91 octane Euro IV gas with no bio-ethanol in the car and people say this is good
for generators as well. The station is just 5 mins from my place.


-------

Typhoon Ramusen just passed with over 100 mile per hour winds.
Storm passed quickly. It's really just the power outage that's troublesome.
Going on 47hrs no electricity in our place. Most areas have been restored though. I'm at my folks place with my kid. My sister's place is still without power as well so their
kid is here as well. At least they get to have playtime. Since my folks already have power, air-conditioning is a godsend.

One thing were watching out for right now is a low pressure area that could turn nasty and follow the same path as the
previous typhoon with similar intensity. Hopefully it doesn't form.

-------

Since my message didn't post, I'll just put my additional insights here.

I have lots of flashlights around the 100 lumen range. Fenix LD10, MC11, HL21 and my XT11UG on medium. Next step though straight to 800+ lumens on the XT11. I do not have anything in between.
If alone, I can live on lower light outputs but having a kid (and a picky wife.. hehe!) makes things more interesting.
Bathrooms and stairwells have to be lit up more.

Even though my LD10 can handle it, it was the most used light due to the usefulness of the diffuser wand. Running it on max though was eating through my Eneloop stash.
Wasn't getting enough power to charge them well via solar because it was heavy overcast.
This showed that I would really need 200-300+ lumen lanterns in D-cells for power and runtime. Will use the AA lanterns for small areas and as backup.

Already found the industrial emergency light I was looking for to put in the hallway/stairwell. 30 hours life with SLA battery that automatically comes on during power outages.

I'll be looking at battery backup sources when I head to the mall later. There's a shop that specializes on just batteries and chargers. I get my Eneloops and other batteries from him. Will be looking at his large SLA setups.


----------



## Cinder

BloodLust said:


> A few insights on my preps:
> I have lots of flashlights but not enough lanterns. I have the small cheap handheld ones and an
> Energizer Light Fusion 2-in1 flashlight/lantern at 100 lumens but it's barely adequate if doing
> some intensive work. Will be getting a higher lumen lantern when I head to the US this month.
> 
> USB power banks are the greatest! I have a small USB desk fan that's plugged into one and has
> been going for more than 2 hours. Charging my electronics with the other power bank.
> I have the Goal Zero Guide 10+ and Nomad 7 solar panel but it's my last resort so I don't have to
> burn through my AAs. I'm reserving my rechargeables for my lights.



A flashaholic in the Phils! Wish we were neighbors! 

Fortunately, Typhoon Ramusen didn't affect us here in the Visayas, but we've had our fair share of power outages. I have 3 lights: Olight M10 Maverick, Fenix TK22, and Thrunite TN12, with the Thrunite being the most used one because of it's awesome range (0.3 lumen to 1050 lumens) and ability to tail stand. Power outages don't last more than 2 hours nowadays, and in the past 5 years the only time power was out longer than that was during Typhoon Haiyan. Still, it's good to be prepared so I'm thinking of getting one of those crank lights or rechargeable LED lanterns from Handyman.

On my wish list is the new Fenix TK 32, but for the past few weeks I've been trying (and probably failing) to convince myself why I don't need this one. Do I really need the massive throw it offers? The colored LEDs seem cool but I already have a Thrunite with 0.3 lumen firefly mode for low light needs. UGH must... resist...


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Looks like Typhoon Rammasun is hitting the Hainan province of China around the city of Haikou. For those in the area, here's some advice:

Run from hurricane
Go find shelter right away
Have lots of flashlights.


----------



## BloodLust

Cinder said:


> A flashaholic in the Phils! Wish we were neighbors!
> 
> Fortunately, Typhoon Ramusen didn't affect us here in the Visayas, but we've had our fair share of power outages. I have 3 lights: Olight M10 Maverick, Fenix TK22, and Thrunite TN12, with the Thrunite being the most used one because of it's awesome range (0.3 lumen to 1050 lumens) and ability to tail stand. Power outages don't last more than 2 hours nowadays, and in the past 5 years the only time power was out longer than that was during Typhoon Haiyan. Still, it's good to be prepared so I'm thinking of getting one of those crank lights or rechargeable LED lanterns from Handyman.
> 
> On my wish list is the new Fenix TK 32, but for the past few weeks I've been trying (and probably failing) to convince myself why I don't need this one. Do I really need the massive throw it offers? The colored LEDs seem cool but I already have a Thrunite with 0.3 lumen firefly mode for low light needs. UGH must... resist...



Kamusta Kabayan?

Where were you able to get your Thrunite?
The TK32 really is tempting. Good throw and I like the dual tail switch since getting my XT11.
But am saving up for Vinh's SLUT (Sky Lumen SL1)


-----------

Due to the power outage, I got 1 more emergency fan and more LSD batteries.
Still computing the wattage needed for a backup generator.
Solar is moving in the list of priorities.


----------



## RobertMM

Hey brothers from the PHL, I guess we have the same experiences.
Power to my area only got restored an hour ago, so almost 4days total.
I kept neglecting the need for a decent lantern because flashlights are more fun, but a day before the storm hit I got myself one of those "Luci" inflatable solar lanterns, waterproof and 12hr runtime at around 40 lumens. This was my last minute prep before the storm, and running with only solar power gave a bit more peace of mind.
Like most I keep a stash of batteries in two pelican cases to feed my lights(which I limit to under a dozen, so I have time to use and enjoy each one). This is a mix of around 72 CR123, 20 AA L91, 50 AA Alkaline, only 4 3400 mAh 18650s, 2 17670s 4 IMR 16340s and 2 14500s though.
I keep these with all lights in an ammunition can I lined with rubber, three or four lights are always on me or nearby.
The moment power was cut I turned my solar lantern on and left it running til morning(every night for 4days). If I wanted to light up brighter I would tailstand my Solarforce M9 on 125(personally tested over 35 hours runtime), 440 or 1020 lumens. 
I live alone, and my house was always lit while neighbors lit candles and used smartphone flashlight app light and generic 5mm multi emitter lights. 
Lights most used were Surefire L1, E1e with Tana Singled, Quark QTA XPG2 and the Solarforce M9. SF LX2, G2L, G2 with custom low output 3V LED dropin, stock incan G2, G3, 6P(bored, with 500 lumen 3 mode dropin)and Minimag Pro+ didn't even get out of the can. Doing daily tasks and playing around, I didn't even get to use any primaries. I can stretch my meager lithium ions alone to last for weeks. 
I also have an Ipad size solar panel(stores 3000mAh, full in 3.5 hours of sun) for smartphones and a 13200mAh powerbank. 
All in all, worry free.


----------



## Cinder

BloodLust said:


> Kamusta Kabayan?
> 
> Where were you able to get your Thrunite?.



Mabuti! 

I got my Thrunite from Amazon. Had it sent here via forwarder. That is actually how I've been ordering my lights. Shipping could get expensive ($20 on average) so I only order lights once or twice a year. I like your solar setup. Is that iPad sized panel something you built on your own or is that store bought?


----------



## TweakMDS

Wow, I'm really starting to appreciate the Dutch power grid when reading all of your experiences. The longest power outage I can remember was about 1 hour... Great insight on needing lanterns though. A bag of ping pong balls can be very handy as a diy solution provided the light doesn't run too hot. I used one inside a tent on top of a D25A a while ago, but only on low and medium. You can even give it some direction with a bit of tin foil. Shiny side in of course.


----------



## BloodLust

Cinder said:


> Mabuti!
> 
> I got my Thrunite from Amazon. Had it sent here via forwarder. That is actually how I've been ordering my lights. Shipping could get expensive ($20 on average) so I only order lights once or twice a year. I like your solar setup. Is that iPad sized panel something you built on your own or is that store bought?




I have a Goal Zero Nomad 7 panel with the Goal Zero Guide 10 Plus battery bank/charger which charges my AAs and AAAs. A bit pricey but good support and availability. (In the US at least, but I'm there often.)

I used my battery banks to power CD-R King USB fans. Got several hours of use out of them.

I'm actually tempted to get the CD-R King Solar kit just to see if it will hold up. About P3k with 20 or 30W solar panel, a 3W 12V LED light plus a battery bank with 2x USB output. DC output as well.

----------

RobertMM:
You have more batteries than I do. I'm lacking in lithium AAs and rechargeable Li-Ions since I only have 1 18650 light. I'm streamlining my camping and emergency gear to run off AAs since I can charge them via the solar panel and AA availability when traveling. Plus I can pull batteries off other gear to power fewer lights.
Fenix LD10, MC11 angle light and HL21 headlamp. LD10 as EDC and MC11 and HL21 in bugout bag.

Besides my Xtar VP2, I recently got an Xtar MC1 single bay Li-Ion USB charger. I can now charge my Li-Ion batteries via solar as well.

3 days no electricity but did not touch my Alkaline backups. Finished my power banks and Eneloops though.

----------

Tweak:
One of my earlier attempts at modding was that I used a white translucent 35mm film canister which I put on a cheap 3x AAA 5 LED flashlight and sealed it with a glue gun. Instant lantern for cheap.


----------



## Poppy

Earlier in this thread (I think posts 19-40) we discussed (and had beam shots) of lanterns vs tail-standing flashlights, including reppans EDC diffuser/deflector pocket lantern.

Overall, *I think* the consensus was that INDOORS a tail-standing flashlight was better than a lantern. Lanterns may well be better for outdoors. I am a little surprised at the desire to get more lanterns. 

Yet, honestly, when there was an impending serious storm, I made sure that the batteries for my lanterns were fully charged. Perhaps I was replaying "old tapes" in that lanterns is what we would have used as a kid.


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

I really like this thread, thank you all for it.

Where I live we get hit with power outages from moderate to heavy rainstorms. So let me recommend the Energy Bar (available in various configurations) at aspectsolar.com-- it is a LiF04 [Lithium Ion Phosphate] battery that can recharge from the wall and also from one of their solar panels. 

It will come in handy to recharge various devices including battery chargers, and if need be, should it become depleted, it can be recharged from the sun during an extended outage (though it can recharge devices while attached to the solar panel). 

In the meantime, though, as much as I love an 18650-powered light, I am stocked up on AA's for lights requiring them.
- LetThereBeLight!


----------



## BloodLust

Poppy said:


> Earlier in this thread (I think posts 19-40) we discussed (and had beam shots) of lanterns vs tail-standing flashlights, including reppans EDC diffuser/deflector pocket lantern.
> 
> Overall, *I think* the consensus was that INDOORS a tail-standing flashlight was better than a lantern. Lanterns may well be better for outdoors. I am a little surprised at the desire to get more lanterns.
> 
> Yet, honestly, when there was an impending serious storm, I made sure that the batteries for my lanterns were fully charged. Perhaps I was replaying "old tapes" in that lanterns is what we would have used as a kid.



Reminiscing could be part of why lanterns are still appealing.
I must reiterate that the most used light during a 3 day power outage was my Fenix LD10 with wand diffuser either on tailstand or hung via lanyard. It gave out much more "usable" light than a typical projected beam of a flashlight.
However, it being on turbo at 100 lumens, it ate through batteries. I myself don't mind a lower output but my wife and kid appreciated it and were happy to do tasks normally like eat and play.
Could we make do with less? Yes we could, but the comfort and convenience that sufficient light brought is also important.





(Diffuser for TK shown. I have for the LD/P series)

My needing more lanterns is that it's easy for me to get a supply of D-Cell batteries since the office subsidizes a big part of that for our work lights. I can get a pair for 1/3 the retail price.

I recently purchased a GE lantern from Costco for $20 before taxes. 350 lumens with 3 brightness levels. Runs for 175hrs with 4 D batts or 350hrs with 8 D batts on low which still gives out a lot. Gives a lot of usable spill light due to large surface area.
For a small flashlight to put out as much light, I would have to get the more expensive lights and they would step down due to heat issues. They would also eat through batteries.
Rather than having a dedicated flashlight for ceiling bounce to leave at home for emergencies, a lantern is hard to lose, would rarely tip over and roll someplace and no diffuser to fumble with. My kid can easily work the large single button switch. Press to turn on high, then successive presses to cycle through the next 2 levels then off. Once on, the room illuminates with a 3W LED household bulb equivalent. No looking for a sweet spot or trying to balance certain lights for ceiling bounce.
It's not something to lug around but for home use and price, it's a winner!


----------



## Poppy

BloodLust said:


> <snip>
> 
> My needing more lanterns is that it's easy for me to get a supply of D-Cell batteries since the office subsidizes a big part of that for our work lights. I can get a pair for 1/3 the retail price.
> 
> I recently purchased a GE lantern from Costco for $20 before taxes. 350 lumens with 3 brightness levels. Runs for 175hrs with 4 D batts or 350hrs with 8 D batts on low which still gives out a lot. Gives a lot of usable spill light due to large surface area.



You might want to put a set of batteries in there and give it a run test, before you rely on it in an emergency. I believe that they are unreliable lumens and runtimes. Of course you must consider that ANSI is to 10% of original output.
Please consider this run-time graph of a 4 cell LED maglight. It starts at 131 lumens, drops to about 60% of that within the first 15 minutes, and then runs between 65 and 78 lumens for about 43 hours. it then drops down to about 20 lumens for another 30 hours.

With all that being said... the GE unit can not start out higher and run longer, unless it drops lower than the mag quicker than the mag.
Unless you were citing a low setting for a long runtime, which will likely be fewer lumens than your 100 lumen flashlight.


----------



## Bmccue1964

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I would keep on hand several Energizer Folding LED Lights that use 4 "D" batteries each. They provide a great amount of light for easily over 100 hours. I have a couple and use them all the time. In addition, I'd also have a two Maglights (LED) 2 "D" cell sizes for Mom & Dad and two cheap Everready LED 1 "D" cell flashlights from Home Depot (Like $4 for 2 pack). Toss the non-alkaline "D" cells in the kids lights in favor of alkalines. Keep a complete replacement set of batteries for each lanter/light. 

Dedicate one of the folding LED lanterns as one that you'd run all night to illuminate a hall/bathroom and stick it in the window so it sheds light outside as well. hese folding lanterns have a folding reflective back for 180 degrees of light or it can be flipped up for 260 degrees of light.

Also consider getting a radio that runs on "D" cells as well and run it at a low volume so it will run longer. Keep a replacement set of batteries for it as well. Battery fan as well ("D" cell size as well).

With this scenario, you would literally have weeks of light and radio.


----------



## BloodLust

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> You might want to put a set of batteries in there and give it a run test, before you rely on it in an emergency. I believe that they are unreliable lumens and runtimes. Of course you must consider that ANSI is to 10% of original output.
> Please consider this run-time graph of a 4 cell LED maglight. It starts at 131 lumens, drops to about 60% of that within the first 15 minutes, and then runs between 65 and 78 lumens for about 43 hours. it then drops down to about 20 lumens for another 30 hours.
> 
> With all that being said... the GE unit can not start out higher and run longer, unless it drops lower than the mag quicker than the mag.
> Unless you were citing a low setting for a long runtime, which will likely be fewer lumens than your 100 lumen flashlight.



How much is the 4-D LED Maglite? Lights that I have seen that puts out 100 lumens or even a bit less for decent runtime is more expensive than the lantern.
I test and use my equipment. I haven't finished yet but so far 10 hours on high and it's still putting out at or near max in my eyes. Will continue to observe.
The Energizer Light Fusion 2-in-1 has a 100 lumen area lamp via side panel. It was the next most used light. Unregulated but lasted quite a while on 4x AA. To be really useful, I would have to change the batteries every d to 1.5 days. With the GE lantern, I don't have. worry about it for a longer time, which is a huge plus because it won't be me who will be using it. I could change batteries of multi-cell, different configuration lights in the dark but I don't expect my family to perform at like me and I want them to have an easier time than I do and have something less to worry about.
Being unregulated in their particular situation is actually a plus in my book as they can see or perceive when they want to change the batteries via light output and still have enough usable light rather than have a well regulated light lower rapidly or suddenly shut down.
I don't have a light meter to use for review. Which is why I don't do reviews because I purchase gear which is very specific to my needs. Also there are a lot of others more qualified to do so. Kudos to the scientific reviewers here on CPF as they are pretty objective and consistent. I just personally don't have the patience and time.

The GE lantern isn't for carrying. I bought it for specific use for a good (to me) price.
Ease of use, brightness, stability. It's a household item that the rest of the non-flashaholic members can use. Its size makes it easily seen and found. I'll be putting GITD sticker/tape on it as well.
It's for lighting up rooms and it's safe enough to be left lit. My young daughter can work it easily.
I can leave it by the stairway landing and it lights up the whole stairwell. No need to point a flashlight at a wall or try to stabilize it to point at a ceiling.
Transferring the light and carrying it by my side, it lights up the area well and consistently too see where I'm going especially if there are other people with me. Carrying a flashlight pointed at the ceiling to light up an area, I have to keep it above eye level since I hate the glare of seeing the LED or reflector. Carrying it that way throughout the house gets tiring. If I carry it that way and cross over to a different room with a different height or colored ceiling, the intensity will shift. It will even become glarey(?) for a moment just crossing over to another area because the beam will hit the door sill which is lower than the ceiling.

It may not be a solution for everyone, but if it works for me, then all is good and I still think it was worth it.


----------



## bandits1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



BloodLust said:


> The GE lantern isn't for carrying. I bought it for specific use for a good (to me) price.
> Ease of use, brightness, stability. It's a household item that the rest of the non-flashaholic members can use. Its size makes it easily seen and found. I'll be putting GITD sticker/tape on it as well.
> It's for lighting up rooms and it's safe enough to be left lit. My young daughter can work it easily.
> I can leave it by the stairway landing and it lights up the whole stairwell. No need to point a flashlight at a wall or try to stabilize it to point at a ceiling.
> Transferring the light and carrying it by my side, it lights up the area well and consistently too see where I'm going especially if there are other people with me. Carrying a flashlight pointed at the ceiling to light up an area, I have to keep it above eye level since I hate the glare of seeing the LED or reflector. Carrying it that way throughout the house gets tiring. If I carry it that way and cross over to a different room with a different height or colored ceiling, the intensity will shift. It will even become glarey(?) for a moment just crossing over to another area because the beam will hit the door sill which is lower than the ceiling.
> 
> It may not be a solution for everyone, but if it works for me, then all is good and I still think it was worth it.


Yup, same reasons I still invest in LED lanterns. My 98 year old grandma can work a lantern. Put it where you want it, press the "ON" button and you're done. It's wide base makes it stable. I recently purchased a couple of UST 30-Day Lanterns, tested them and they went safely past the equivalent of 30+ days on low power -- we ran them 7-8 hours a night for 3+ months before dimming to an unusable level.


----------



## reppans

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Here's a Black Diamond Apollo 4xAA lantern (pretty highly rated lantern AFAIK) against my 1xAA EDC with wallet diffuser, both on low (pix is a bit over exposed). The BD spec for this output is an unregulated 60 hrs, and I've personally tested my EDC at this output for a regulated 40+ hours. The flashlight can go much brighter (w/ higher highs), or run much longer (having a lower low), not to mention PWM, versatility, portability, etc. 






During blackouts, I always use my flashlights (as lanterns, headlamps, and of course flashlights) for their exceptional efficiency, but my wife does prefer using the Apollo. Guess who's responsible for running the generator and charging/changing batteries .





BloodLust said:


> I don't have a light meter to use for review.



If you have a smartphone, you can download a free light meter app and objective measure output (at least changes and differences). Just tape a sheet of paper against the wall, and measure the small sample of reflected/ambient light in a consistent way.... it's not the finest instrument you can use, but it's far better than what your eyes can perceive. You can even calibrate it at the max lumens starting point (say 100 lms for example), and the meter will tell you when you've hit 80, 50, 25 lumens etc.


----------



## BloodLust

Thanks reppans. Will check out the app.


----------



## bwDraco

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I keep lots of AA batteries, both alkaline and NiMH, on hand. I have a USB AA/AAA charger which can be be used with a high-capacity Anker USB battery if required. However, I am not equipped to charge 18650s from USB, so I would be more inclined to use my LD20 (rather than my SRT7) during an extended power outage unless very bright light is required.

--DragonLord

*Edit:* Just ordered an XTAR MC1 USB Li-ion charger, so this should no longer be an issue.

*Edit 2:* Order has shipped, but may take up to a week to arrive (it's coming from California via USPS First Class Mail Parcel).


----------



## BloodLust

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

DragonLord: I use the MC1 when traveling and a VP2 at home. I'll be getting an XTAR XP1 Hummingbird so I can charge single AA's and 16340/18350 cells via a Goal Zero Nomad 7 solar panel. I do have the Guide 10 Plus to charge multiple AAs but I EDC a single AA LD10 and my bugout/emergency gear are already streamlined to run off single AAs such as my 1AA Energizer Tactical and Fenix HL21 headlamp.
The XP1 will make battery rotation/turnover easier since I don't have to wait for 4 AAs before I can charge them.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



BloodLust said:


> How much is the 4-D LED Maglite? Lights that I have seen that puts out 100 lumens or even a bit less for decent runtime is more expensive than the lantern.
> I test and use my equipment. I haven't finished yet but so far 10 hours on high and it's still putting out at or near max in my eyes. Will continue to observe.


HI BloodLust,
I don't know what 4D mags cost, 3D mags are about $40 (twice the cost of your lantern)
LOL... @ just $20 for that GE lantern, I'd have to restrain myself from picking one up 

I mentioned the maglight run-time curve/graph as an example of an unregulated LED light powered by 4D cell batteries. 
I'd expect that the GE lantern would have a similar output curve, whereas it starts out high, rapidly drops off, and then runs for a long time at a much lower level of output. 10 hours without an appreciable drop off is already impressive.

I'd really be interested in seeing an output graph/chart of your lantern.


----------



## BloodLust

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Poppy,

I would like to see actual output numbers as well. Unfortunately, I don't have e equipment to do it.
Just real world observations which are not very objective.
All I can say is that despite my daughter playing around with it and forgetting to turn it off, it still puts out a lot of usable light. Even if I cut everything in half like runtime and output, I would still be very happy with it.

Here are the ANSI specs:
With 4 batteries:
175 Hrs on low
125 hrs on med
40 hrs on high
Double those hours for an 8 battery configuration.

So even with half those numbers so that it goes down to 50% rather than 10%, at 5 hours a night, that's 4 days on 4 D cells and over a week on 8 D cells.
Low and med are very usable as well. It's not low low and reading, eating, even playing board games wouldn't be a problem. One of the best lanterns I've used (admittedly, I've only used a few) especially for the price.

I frosted some of my cheaper lanterns' globes with a frosting spray/dull lacquer to give uniform light and cut down the glare. With the GE, I didn't have to do that.

Right now, I keep playing around with it more than my other lights.
My wife had to put on make-up for work during a power outage and out of all my lights, she chose the GE lantern. We know how OC/meticulous people can be when putting on make-up. Coming from a non-flashaholic who may have a different perception or perspective when it comes to lights, she really appreciated that I got it despite raising an eyebrow when she saw that I bought a huge light. The "Whadda ya need that for?" look. Then she had a change of heart because of its usefulness and ease of use.
There may be other lights there that are more powerful and have more features but it's hard to beat for the price. I didn't want to spend a lot for something that sits there that may or may not be used often. If it gets used, well and good. If it doesn't get used often, it's no big deal as well.
I would hate to spend a lot for a light and end up a closet queen.
Most of my lights are workhorses and have a specific use.
Quite happy with it.


----------



## DoubleA

Poppy said:


> Earlier in this thread (I think posts 19-40) we discussed (and had beam shots) of lanterns vs tail-standing flashlights, including reppans EDC diffuser/deflector pocket lantern.
> 
> Overall, *I think* the consensus was that INDOORS a tail-standing flashlight was better than a lantern. Lanterns may well be better for outdoors. I am a little surprised at the desire to get more lanterns.
> 
> Yet, honestly, when there was an impending serious storm, I made sure that the batteries for my lanterns were fully charged. Perhaps I was replaying "old tapes" in that lanterns is what we would have used as a kid.



I'm sure glad you mentioned this! I just got a 4AA LED lantern that was on sale at Menards. It's my first lantern, and I thought it would be kinda neat to have for a power outage (which seems to never happen here, dang it!). It has 12 LEDs; 3 sets of 4 facing 3 directions. I tried it out in my living room and noticed how it lights up the room. I also also noticed that if I put it near the middle of the room, it's hard not to be looking at it or having it shine right at me, which is not comfortable. If I position it up higher, such as hang it somehow near the ceiling, the light shines to the sides, but not downward very well. 

Then I tried something as a comparison. I took the bezel off my ROV Sportsman Extreme which uses only 2AA batteries and has 1 Luxeon LED and puts out 40 lumens for about 5 hours. I laid it sideways on my TV in the front of the room. It lit the room almost better than the lantern. Even leaving the bezel on and tailstanding (in an improved way) does about the same job. To me, this seems to indicate that the flashlight is more versatile. It can be a flashlight while doing the job of a lantern in way better than the lantern can. Using fewer LEDs, the flashlight might even do it more effeciently too.


----------



## uski

Hi

I'm new here (been browsing the forum for years, but posting only recently), so my opinion might be a bit different than hardcore lamp enthusiasts.

I live alone and I carry :
- 1 3-mode LED headlamp using 3 AAAs
- 1 dollar store light using 3 AAAs
- 2 USB battery packs (18650 inside) with a Ikea JANSJÖ USB LED light (10lm)

I keep the USB battery packs permanently charged (and I use them regularly to charge my phone on the go when I forget to charge it), and I always have at least 12 AAA alkalines. I rarely use the LED lights on my usual life, they're only for emergencies and the few camping trips every year.

The headlamp is good if I need to focus on doing something (reading, using some tools, ...) and I need my two hands.
The dollar store light is a backup.
And the USB battery packs can either power the Ikea light (which is OK as room lighting) or charge the phone or talkie-walkies (which is very useful in an emergency).

I live in town so I don't really need a long-range light. I'd get one if I was living in less densely populated areas. Also I do not expect any outage to last more than 5 days (off topic: I keep 2 gallons of water in small plastic bottles + some cans of food + survival blankets + swiss army knife + AAA fm radio and that is all for my preparedness gear).

As most of you already carry 18650 batteries I highly recommend that you get one or two $2 "18650 to USB" case (eBay...), which will allow you to easily charge your 18650 from a USB source, and easily power anything that uses a USB port for power or charge.


----------



## StarHalo

What a storm power outage in a 1.2 million square foot warehouse is like: Copious, redundant fluorescent lighting and the constant noise of conveyors, fans, and air conditioning instantaneously turns to complete pitch black and dead silence. Then a chorus of several thousand people shouting "WHOOOOO, YEEEAH," as workers begin navigating towards exits in total darkness using scan guns, then after about thirty seconds backup power kicks in and every eighth or so light comes on, security moves down isles with flashlights directing everyone to the front of the building. Everyone hangs out for a while, some opting to stand under awnings outside to watch the storm (where they're treated to an extremely rare event in this area; cloud-to-ground lightning,) and after an hour when even the clocks in the building have given up and turned off, everyone is sent home in hopes power will return for the next shift. 

And that's how I spent my afternoon.


----------



## TMedina

Heh. Navigating by the light of a scan gun is a new one for me.

What kind of flashlights did security have? Make my morning complete by saying "2-D incandescent flashlights".


----------



## xdayv

I think a good long running low output lumen light will be vital for this kind of situation.

I'm considering to add a lantern, looking at the Ultimate Survival Techonologies 30 day lantern, aside from having to rely on the flashlights. I think this will be a good combo?


----------



## StarHalo

TMedina said:


> "2-D incandescent flashlights"



100% correct sir; they have the magnetic sides and are affixed to unused emergency exits around the warehouse, plus one of the security guys had an armful of new ones still in boxes.


----------



## leaftye

I think I'm at about 50 thousand lumens. I have to update my spreadsheet to make sure, and even then I might forget about a few lights.

Over 200 18650's, and may be approaching 300. Over a dozen 26650's, a 32650, and a couple dozen smaller sizes. I believe I have over 50 AA Eneloops and Duraloops, plus about a dozen nimh AAA's. And there's more...

No power shortage outside of a zombie apocalypse is going to leave me in the dark, and that wouldn't even be enough since I have enough solar to keep me going indefinitely.


----------



## peterscm

Some interesting light

http://www.uyled.com/productEn.asp?id=699

*UY-Q6 Portable Lamp*
LED Portable Lamp
Rechargeable 
Easy to carry 
4 levels brightness. The 5th step is flash mode
Internal battery: can continues work about 4~80 hours. It will different in using different brightness.

Bought 1 from aliexpress. Tested on lowest brightness which last up to 56 hours instead of claimed 72 (80) hours.


----------



## blah9

I think I now have plenty of 18650's to go along with my lights. I have 22 18650's, so that is plenty for using a few single-18650 lights for an extended period of time, even including some periods of high-illumination tasks. At first I wasn't fully on board with them and wanted to stick with AA eneloops, but now I have more 18650 lights than AA lights.


----------



## Lit Up

reppans said:


> To each his own, of course, I personally like low lumens and using my night vision - makes me feel like camping in the house. My son is the same, wifey likes brighter though - she uses all the batts up. I'm not worried about theft in my suburban neighborhood, but the guy mentioned being in the "ghetto." Also, me thinks if the state of CA is out of power, airports (even with their emergency generators) will not be running normal operations.... just saying



Ask Sub Umbra what his choice of light was during Katrina. Was a bluish Gerber Infinity Ultra if memory serves correct. I'm in his camp of thought; Sometimes it's good not to draw attention. Remain as invisible as possible. For the record, my Gerber is red.


----------



## Lit Up

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Bmccue1964 said:


> I would keep on hand several Energizer Folding LED Lights that use 4 "D" batteries each. They provide a great amount of light for easily over 100 hours. I have a couple and use them all the time. In addition, I'd also have a two Maglights (LED) 2 "D" cell sizes for Mom & Dad and two cheap Everready LED 1 "D" cell flashlights from Home Depot (Like $4 for 2 pack). Toss the non-alkaline "D" cells in the kids lights in favor of alkalines. Keep a complete replacement set of batteries for each lanter/light.
> 
> Dedicate one of the folding LED lanterns as one that you'd run all night to illuminate a hall/bathroom and stick it in the window so it sheds light outside as well. hese folding lanterns have a folding reflective back for 180 degrees of light or it can be flipped up for 260 degrees of light.
> 
> Also consider getting a radio that runs on "D" cells as well and run it at a low volume so it will run longer. Keep a replacement set of batteries for it as well. Battery fan as well ("D" cell size as well).
> 
> With this scenario, you would literally have weeks of light and radio.



Everyone on this board should own a couple of those cheap 1D lights. make decent ceiling bouncers for not twisting an ankle and you only need to find one cell to be in the rodeo. 1 cell lights are king in these scenarios. As far as D cell radio: Sony ICF-F10. Takes only two cells, pure analog and cheap to acquire. Get a couple D to AA adaptors to extend its usefulness.


----------



## buds224

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I've posted about the USB LED lights previously, but found an awesome way to use them for automated emergency lighting.

These have light sensors to activate during low or no lighting. It ramps up as light is needed.






Then there are these Universal chargers I purchased in the past. They are capable of AC charging to power the USB port and also charge various batteries. They can even use batteries to power the USB port, which is the key to making it work.







Now when the lights go out, the USB LEDs take over, whether there is power to the AC or not since the 18650 will take over if there is a power outage. The light activates instantaneously without any lag/delay.





This is my lighting solution during a power outage at 80lumens, warm, and floody enough to light the entire room.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



buds224 said:


> I've posted about the USB LED lights previously, but found an awesome way to use them for automated emergency lighting.
> 
> These have light sensors to activate during low or no lighting. It ramps up as light is needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then there are these Universal chargers I purchased in the past. They are capable of AC charging to power the USB port and also charge various batteries. They can even use batteries to power the USB port, which is the key to making it work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now when the lights go out, the USB LEDs take over, whether there is power to the AC or not since the 18650 will take over if there is a power outage. The light activates instantaneously without any lag/delay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is my lighting solution during a power outage at 80lumens, warm, and floody enough to light the entire room.



That's a great emergency setup! Can you PM me with details on where I can find those items?


Max


----------



## sgt253

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

If you wouldn't mind... I would love to know as well. PM great, here great. Really interested. Thanks. All the best.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



buds224 said:


> I've posted about the USB LED lights previously, but found an awesome way to use them for automated emergency lighting.
> 
> These have light sensors to activate during low or no lighting. It ramps up as light is needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 80lumens, warm, and floody enough to light the entire room.



I've seen them at fasttech for a couple of dollars, and wondered about them.
They actually are on my "to buy" list for the next time I place an order with them.

I was thinking that they may be good loaner lights with a cheap power bank that people could recharge in their car (from a USB port) each day of an outage.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I also thought that this: at fasttech for about $3
1.2W USB Powered 8*5152 180LM 5800K Neutral White LED Light

plugged into something like the Miller 102 universal smart charger for about $6 might work well. 
I'd expect to get about 8 hours from an 18650b


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> I also thought that this: at fasttech for about $3
> 1.2W USB Powered 8*5152 180LM 5800K Neutral White LED Light
> 
> plugged into something like the Miller 102 universal smart charger for about $6 might work well.
> I'd expect to get about 8 hours from an 18650b


Love the Miller charger. Now if they'd just make them with a micro USB instead of mini USB port.


Max


----------



## markr6

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Great ideas! Fun to look at all this stuff on FastTech. I noticed a lot of their power packs that come WITH 18650 cells appear to be unprotected. Running 2, 4 or even 6 at a time! Dangerous? Or am I brainwashed from reading all the usual Li-Ion talk.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



bluemax_1 said:


> Love the Miller charger. Now if they'd just make them with a micro USB instead of mini USB port.
> 
> 
> Max


Yeah, and if they would take protected cells.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



markr6 said:


> Great ideas! Fun to look at all this stuff on FastTech. I noticed a lot of their power packs that come WITH 18650 cells appear to be unprotected. Running 2, 4 or even 6 at a time! Dangerous? Or am I brainwashed from reading all the usual Li-Ion talk.


mark,
I don't know, but I think that most of the issues occur with cells in series, I don't think they are as much of a problem when they are in parallel.


----------



## markr6

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> mark,
> I don't know, but I think that most of the issues occur with cells in series, I don't think they are as much of a problem when they are in parallel.



Ahhh I was going to mention that since I thought it may be a factor...but didn't want to look stupid if that had nothing to do with it. Thanks!

I have some decent 2000mAh cells pulled from a laptop with absolutely no use. I figured a 2 or 3-cell power pack would be something fun with one of these USB LED chips and the spare cells.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> Yeah, and if they would take protected cells.



KeepPower 18650's are a tight fit, but they DO fit (sort of. Well enough to function anyway). I like the Xtar version too, but it needs a wall wart (allows up to 2A fast charging) but loses the ability to charge via USB, although it can still be used with an 18650 to charge other USB devices.


Max


----------



## buds224

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

The USB LED light I got from fasttech.com is SKU#1741604; this seems to be the only model with the built in light sensor. Unfortunately, the charger is something I got from Amazon and I just discovered it's not on there anymore. I had purchased x2 of them 3 years ago and didn't find a practical use for them until now. I wanted to get more and it looks like they're discontinued. I'll check other sites and update you all if I find them anywhere.


****UPDATE: the universal charger can be found at dx.com under item#151738


----------



## sgt253

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Thanks. I found them both. 


Regards.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I've long been an advocate of automatic ON Emergency lighting.

I have a number of questions about THIS particular setup. 

1. it seems that the led is lit whenever it is dark in the room, regardless of whether there is AC power to the outlet. If so, it might not be good as a bed-room night light, but great for the kitchen, garage, or basement.

2. Once the battery is fully charged, does the charger shut down? IE is there a danger of overcharging the battery? IE is it ok to leave a battery on charge in this unit for months/years at a time?

3. If one uses a protected battery with overcharge protection, and the protection trips, what happens?

4. If a cell phone battery is inserted, will it power the USB port?


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



buds224 said:


> The USB LED light I got from fasttech.com is SKU#1741604; this seems to be the only model with the built in light sensor. Unfortunately, the charger is something I got from Amazon and I just discovered it's not on there anymore. I had purchased x2 of them 3 years ago and didn't find a practical use for them until now. I wanted to get more and it looks like they're discontinued. I'll check other sites and update you all if I find them anywhere.
> 
> 
> ****UPDATE: the universal charger can be found at dx.com under item#151738


Thanks! Found and ordered both to test. At ~$5 for 5 of the USB lights and ~$5 for the charger it's worth experimenting with.


Max


----------



## buds224

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> I've long been an advocate of automatic ON Emergency lighting.
> 
> I have a number of questions about THIS particular setup.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. it seems that the led is lit whenever it is dark in the room, regardless of whether there is AC power to the outlet. If so, it might not be good as a bed-room night light, but great for the kitchen, garage, or basement.
> 
> I have this setup in the living room. I basically have it in the room(s) where we spend our evenings in. The winter storms in Japan have proven to cause rolling to full blackouts. This setup is awesome for rolling blackouts. The kids are never worried since it never gets completely dark.
> 
> 2. Once the battery is fully charged, does the charger shut down? IE is there a danger of overcharging the battery? IE is it ok to leave a battery on charge in this unit for months/years at a time?
> 
> The charger does terminate at 4.2v for lithium batteries. The indicator light blinks between green and red and once the battery is fully charged, the indicator stays a solid green.
> 
> 
> 3. If one uses a protected battery with overcharge protection, and the protection trips, what happens?
> 
> Obviously, if the protection kicks in on a protected battery, this setup is essentially shutdown without any AC power. Although, I have used this charger to wake up tripped batteries, so I'm not exactly sure what would happen in this particular charger.
> 
> 
> 4. If a cell phone battery is inserted, will it power the USB port?
> 
> I hadn't thought of that scenario so I decided to test it. YES! A camera/cellphone battery does power the USB port as well. As a side note, NiMh batteries do not have enough voltage to send power to the USB port. The charger is also capable of charging battery to battery without AC; in a test case I did, I can use an 18650 to charge a rectangular camera battery; which came in handy during one of my outings. There is a side-switch to select the flow of the charge.




Hope this helps!





bluemax_1 said:


> Thanks! Found and ordered both to test. At ~$5 for 5 of the USB lights and ~$5 for the charger it's worth experimenting with.
> 
> 
> Max



Free shipping to boot!


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

buds224,
Thanks for the response, and for posting in this thread.

As I said, I am a huge advocate of auto on emergency lighting. If I wasn't already set up with auto on lights, I'd get a few sets. I already set up my in-laws, and my dad too.

I'm guessing that one of these will run on a 3100 ma 18650 for about 24 hours. 80 warm lumens for 24 continuous hours! That would be hard to beat. :thumbsup:


----------



## buds224

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> buds224,
> Thanks for the response, and for posting in this thread.
> 
> As I said, I am a huge advocate of auto on emergency lighting. If I wasn't already set up with auto on lights, I'd get a few sets. I already set up my in-laws, and my dad too.
> 
> I'm guessing that one of these will run on a 3100 ma 18650 for about 24 hours. 80 warm lumens for 24 continuous hours! That would be hard to beat. :thumbsup:



I'm glad you have an idea on the runtimes. I have no clue on how to calculate that and haven't actually run a test yet. I'd already be happy with 8hrs continuous, any more than that is gravy!


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



bluemax_1 said:


> Love the Miller charger. Now if they'd just make them with a micro USB instead of mini USB port.
> 
> 
> Max



Max,
Here is a mod to the Miller charger ML-102 so that it takes both, protected, and unprotected cells, AND it can get charged by way of a mini, or micro, USB port.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> Max,
> Here is a mod to the Miller charger ML-102 so that it takes both, protected, and unprotected cells, AND it can get charged by way of a mini, or micro, USB port.


Fascinating! Happen to have a link to the mod(s)?


Max

P.S. whoops, just saw the link. Very nice!


----------



## KITROBASKIN

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Poppy, Thanks again. You are a great resource. Just picked up the ML-102 from Fasttech today. Tried it with a 15 watt solar charger. Worked great until the clouds rolled in. We'll see. Not being a person that solders... Sure would like to figure out a way to charge longer batteries. Even the 2250 mAh Kinoko's are too long.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



KITROBASKIN said:


> Poppy, Thanks again. You are a great resource. Just picked up the ML-102 from Fasttech today. Tried it with a 15 watt solar charger. Worked great until the clouds rolled in. We'll see. Not being a person that solders... Sure would like to figure out a way to charge longer batteries. Even the 2250 mAh Kinoko's are too long.



I realized my GZ Sherpa 50 and Nomad 27 panel both have vehicle Cigarette Lighter Adapter sockets. With that in mind, I think I'm just going to get an Xtar SP1. It takes a 12V input (and the charger comes with a CLA AND 120v wall wart), and has the ability to take all sizes of batteries including up to 26650 down to 10440 without needing spacers/adapters. I like the fast 2A charge capability too as who knows how long I might have access to power or clear skies? Charging a 3400mAh 18650 would take 4 times as long with a 500mA output.

BTW, I wonder why GZ discontinued the Nomad 27? Works fine for me and it's way more portable/packable. I see that prices are climbing for places that still have old stock of the Nomad 27 panels.


Max


----------



## KITROBASKIN

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



bluemax_1 said:


> I realized my GZ Sherpa 50 and Nomad 27 panel both have vehicle Cigarette Lighter Adapter sockets. With that in mind, I think I'm just going to get an Xtar SP1. It takes a 12V input (and the charger comes with a CLA AND 120v wall wart), and has the ability to take all sizes of batteries including up to 26650 down to 10440 without needing spacers/adapters. I like the fast 2A charge capability too as who knows how long I might have access to power or clear skies? Charging a 3400mAh 18650 would take 4 times as long with a 500mA output.
> 
> BTW, I wonder why GZ discontinued the Nomad 27? Works fine for me and it's way more portable/packable. I see that prices are climbing for places that still have old stock of the Nomad 27 panels.
> 
> 
> Max


 
Got my Boulder 15 Goal Zero from Emergency Essentials (beprepared.com) when it was more than 50% off but you have to act quick. I could not get my Nitecore i2 (not the newest model) to charge LiPo's even though it would charge NiMh AAA's from the panel. (Pig-tailed a 12 volt receptacle to one of the connections). Please, Max, Let us know how the SP1 works. Xtar has a great selection of chargers.

By-The-Way, You were one of the experts I listened to regarding the NiteCore TM26 (a fine light for power outages). Right now, I am charging the battery pack for the TM36 (30% off from the fine people at illumn.com). It is taking a long time, and I'm curious to see its suitability for grid failure. Any thoughts?


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



KITROBASKIN said:


> Got my Boulder 15 Goal Zero from Emergency Essentials (beprepared.com) when it was more than 50% off but you have to act quick. I could not get my Nitecore i2 (not the newest model) to charge LiPo's even though it would charge NiMh AAA's from the panel. (Pig-tailed a 12 volt receptacle to one of the connections). Please, Max, Let us know how the SP1 works. Xtar has a great selection of chargers.
> 
> By-The-Way, You were one of the experts I listened to regarding the NiteCore TM26 (a fine light for power outages). Right now, I am charging the battery pack for the TM36 (30% off from the fine people at illumn.com). It is taking a long time, and I'm curious to see its suitability for grid failure. Any thoughts?


I contemplated the battery pack for the TM26. While it works to balance out the 36, it deprives the 26 of one of it's main benefits of its small size.

In addition, there are several downsides to it when NOT used with a TM36:
1) It makes a TM26 bigger than it has to be.
2) the TM26 already can't handle the thermal load of Turbo for very long without stepping down unless the ambient temperature is below 50f. This makes the added capacity of less value since the TM26 can already run for very long periods at the lower levels.
3) the cells used in the NBP52 battery pack are NOT 3400mAh cells. The actual capacity increase over 4 x 3400mAH batteries is more like 35% than 100%. I can use the individual 18650 batteries in several 1x18650 lights vs using the NBP52 in only the TM-series lights. Even if I only had one 1x18650 light, a 1x18650 light at lower lumens will probably be more efficient running 1x18650 at a time for 100 lumens than 4x18650 in a TM26 for that lumen level.
4) I can get 8x18650 3400mAh batteries cheaper than 1 NBP52.

For me, without a TM36, the ONLY reason to get the NBP52 for the 26 is if I absolutely needed that 35% added runtime, AND opening the light to swap out 4 fresh batteries is out of the question.


Max

P.S. I opened my Sherpa 50 and it looks like it isn't difficult to swap the 6 x 2600mAh 18650's for 6 x 3400mAh 18650's. That should produce a Sherpa 65 ☺


----------



## BloodLust

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



bluemax_1 said:


> I realized my GZ Sherpa 50 and Nomad 27 panel both have vehicle Cigarette Lighter Adapter sockets. With that in mind, I think I'm just going to get an Xtar SP1. It takes a 12V input (and the charger comes with a CLA AND 120v wall wart), and has the ability to take all sizes of batteries including up to 26650 down to 10440 without needing spacers/adapters. I like the fast 2A charge capability too as who knows how long I might have access to power or clear skies? Charging a 3400mAh 18650 would take 4 times as long with a 500mA output.
> 
> BTW, I wonder why GZ discontinued the Nomad 27? Works fine for me and it's way more portable/packable. I see that prices are climbing for places that still have old stock of the Nomad 27 panels.
> 
> 
> Max



I have the Xtar MC1 and VP2. Trying to look for another source of the XP1 locally since the shop I go to ran out. The XP1 can also charge AA/AAA.
The MC1 runs off micro USB. I don't mind charging just 1 cell since my bugout lights are all 1xAA and my tactical light is a 1x18650.

Will be testing charging 18650 with my GZ Nomad 7. I need a bigger panel. Even a not so portable one for the house.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



BloodLust said:


> I have the Xtar MC1 and VP2. Trying to look for another source of the XP1 locally since the shop I go to ran out. The XP1 can also charge AA/AAA.
> The MC1 runs off micro USB. I don't mind charging just 1 cell since my bugout lights are all 1xAA and my tactical light is a 1x18650.
> 
> Will be testing charging 18650 with my GZ Nomad 7. I need a bigger panel. Even a not so portable one for the house.



Have you tried to use the MC1 and VP2 directly from your solar panel? I'm thinking they do not get enough power...


----------



## BloodLust

KITROBASKIN said:


> Have you tried to use the MC1 and VP2 directly from your solar panel? I'm thinking they do not get enough power...



Just about to. It's hurricane season so no sun and I've only tested the Nomad 7 panel to charge a 12k mAh USB battery bank. These usually have 18650s inside. No sun, I only got around 4% for a day of charging, stuck to a window though only facing the afternoon sun.
haven't tried it in direct sunlight for either the power bank or the Xtar chargers.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Got the Miller ML-102 to charge protected 3400 mAh EagTac and ZebraLight 18650's. Cutting those two plastic protuberances on either side of the negative spring helped. I'm not going to force the 3400 AW protected though.


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I have a patio canopy, and can "ceiling bounce" a flashlight off of it. 

Outdoors, light isn't bouncing off of the ceiling or four walls as it is, when indoors. During an outage where you may be more comfortable outside for awhile, how would you light the area? How many lumens? Would you use multiple lights, or lanterns and place them around the property to "spread out the light"?


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> During an outage where you may be more comfortable outside for awhile, how would you light the area?



I wouldn't; you can see the stars best in a blacked-out neighborhood..


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



StarHalo said:


> I wouldn't; you can see the stars best in a blacked-out neighborhood..



LOL... oh sure, it would take someone with Star in his username to think about Star_gazing! 

So... let's set the scene, where a storm caused the outage, the sky is still overcast, and there are no visible stars out tonight. Further, there is a slight breeze, but it is still hotter inside than outside.

Would you care to light up the great outdoors? If so, how, and by how much?


----------



## cland72

My streamlight siege on low would be perfect for sitting in the front yard enjoying the breeze


----------



## Poppy

cland72 said:


> My streamlight siege on low would be perfect for sitting in the front yard enjoying the breeze



cland72,
Thanks for responding, I'm glad that you did! It got me thinking about how I would handle the next outage.

Sitting in the FRONT yard, where neighbors could SEE me, might be a great idea. Last outage I had the generator out front... and it was LOUD! Now I moved it to the back, and put it in a sound deadening ventilated box. We could sit in the back yard, and I don't think it would be too bad. 

Back there, we have a fire pit and of course BBQ grills, I suppose I could invite more neighbors over for a BBQ. Last time I invited a few neighbors over to my lighted house, and they all refused, choosing to stay at home with a flashlight, a bottle of wine, and some had a fire-place. IDK.. I get the sense that it was in part that they wanted to stay to PROTECT the homestead... just in case.

Perhaps sitting out front, where people could also keep an eye on the front door of their houses, would be a bit more welcoming.


----------



## Taz80

Thats when a lantern would come in handy, although once the sky clears its nice to take advantage of the lack of light pollution for some star gazing. And seeing what 3000lms looks like with only the stars for ambient light. Unfortunately by the time I get home from work after a storm like that all I want to do is sleep.


----------



## HighLumens

Here we are discussing the number of batteries needed for flashlights and headlamps. But I'd like to ask you guys what other electrical equipment we should stock up batteries for as to trying to standardize on a battery size or two at most. I can think of radios and walkie talkie (sorry, I don't know the exact name, maybe they are called pmr radios). Is there any other device I'm forgetting to consider (probably there is a lot)?


----------



## bluemax_1

HighLumens said:


> Here we are discussing the number of batteries needed for flashlights and headlamps. But I'd like to ask you guys what other electrical equipment we should stock up batteries for as to trying to standardize on a battery size or two at most. I can think of radios and walkie talkie (sorry, I don't know the exact name, maybe they are called pmr radios). Is there any other device I'm forgetting to consider (probably there is a lot)?


As far as walkie talkies (PRS Personal Radio Systems operating on the FRS and/or GMRS bands *note GMRS bands require a license/permit), while I don't deny their usefulness as communications tools (I have several sets myself), aside from a large farm where the usual chores must still be done even during power outages and being able to maintain communications out of talking/shouting distance is a good idea, what scenarios do you foresee a typical household needing walkie talkies for?

In addition, the vast majority of the commonly available FRS/GMRS radios these days have their own proprietary LiIon rechargeable battery packs. Can't recall recently seeing radios that weren't from the toy department that use AA's or anything like that.

For extended power outage prep, aside from flashlights/lanterns, the only other common electronic item I would recommend is a small, portable AM/FM radio. One of those can be handy for maintaining contact with the outside world and getting updates on the general situation plus weather alerts or other public broadcast emergency alert messages. Earlier in this thread, I think there was mention of some AM/FM radios that have built-in hand cranks so the batteries can be charged that way if needed.

Of course, there are also certain cases where folks have special needs like CPAP machines etc. and I would certainly hope that they have contingency plans to keep those items running.


Max


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> Perhaps sitting out front, where people could also keep an eye on the front door of their houses, would be a bit more welcoming.



That could possibly the one instance I'd want a standard fuel-burning lantern; something warm in the 1000 lumen range that would light up the immediate area in front of the house like a light bulb.



HighLumens said:


> Is there any other device I'm forgetting to consider (probably there is a lot)?



Nope, light and radio pretty much covers it, been through many an outage and Earth Hour on those alone; we have a radio thread if you're interested in seeing what's out there. Better to consider non-obvious non-electrical items you'll want, like baby wipes, disposable dinnerware, board/card games..


----------



## Poppy

bluemax_1 said:


> As far as walkie talkies (PRS Personal Radio Systems operating on the FRS and/or GMRS bands *note GMRS bands require a license/permit), while I don't deny their usefulness as communications tools (I have several sets myself), aside from a large farm where the usual chores must still be done even during power outages and *being able to maintain communications out of talking/shouting distance is a good idea,* what scenarios do you foresee a typical household needing walkie talkies for?
> 
> In addition, the vast majority of the commonly available FRS/GMRS radios these days have their own proprietary LiIon rechargeable battery packs. Can't recall recently seeing radios that weren't from the toy department that use AA's or anything like that.
> 
> Max



I have a pair of older motorolas that take a rechargeable 3.6V NiMH pack, OR 3x AAs.
And another pair that only take 3-AAs.

When the twin towers went down, there was very limited cell coverage, whatever was left, was overwhelmed. I had been to an Apple Fest, essentially craft show/food fair, on a beautiful fall day. Nothing happened, but there were so many people using cell phones that the towers were overloaded and couldn't carry the capacity. Texting could get through, but calls could not. 

There may be senior neighbors who won't want to leave their homes, that you may want to stay in touch with. Just knowing that I have the ability to reach out a few hundred yards if necessary makes me feel better.


----------



## ForrestChump

LOVE THESE THREADS. IM ADDICTED.


That said Surefire E1DL 47 hour low, tail stand, 5 lumens. 12 CR123.

Throw in a UCO lantern and a few packs of candles and you're good.


----------



## MoBait

For me it depends on the reason for the outage. And how large of an area is affected. If it's just my block, I'm not worried about using too much light, as I can go to a friend's house to recharge... 

On the other hand, if it's city or region-wide, I'd be using as little light as possible. Probably less than 20 lumens. If power is out and it is not know when it will be back up, many unprepared people will panic. Many criminals will be more willing to conduct their business. In my mind, more light in the house = better target for pillagers. 

That said, I have a 100 Aa, 100 AAA, and 20 CR123A primaries on standby


----------



## bluemax_1

MoBait said:


> For me it depends on the reason for the outage. And how large of an area is affected. If it's just my block, I'm not worried about using too much light, as I can go to a friend's house to recharge...
> 
> On the other hand, if it's city or region-wide, I'd be using as little light as possible. Probably less than 20 lumens. If power is out and it is not know when it will be back up, many unprepared people will panic. Many criminals will be more willing to conduct their business. In my mind, more light in the house = better target for pillagers.


That's what Castle Law is good for.

As has been postulated in this thread (IIRC), looters are far more likely to break into a house that looks like it might be unoccupied (potentially putting everyone involved in a bad position).

I'd rather have the house look occupied. I'm not talking about lighting up the house so it's visible from outer space, but I'm not trying to hide the fact that I have lights.


Sure, some folks might wonder what other preparations I might have other than lights. I also want them to wonder just how many thousand rounds I might have stockpiled too. Difference in opinion I guess.



Max


----------



## ForrestChump

bluemax_1 said:


> That's what Castle Law is good for.
> 
> As has been postulated in this thread (IIRC), looters are far more likely to break into a house that looks like it might be unoccupied (potentially putting everyone involved in a bad position).
> 
> I'd rather have the house look occupied. I'm not talking about lighting up the house so it's visible from outer space, but I'm not trying to hide the fact that I have lights.
> 
> 
> Sure, some folks might wonder what other preparations I might have other than lights. I also want them to wonder just how many thousand rounds I might have stockpiled too. Difference in opinion I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> Max



Interesting!

Always thought lower is better, maybe not? Any other opinions here?


----------



## MoBait

bluemax_1 said:


> That's what Castle Law is good for.
> 
> As has been postulated in this thread (IIRC), looters are far more likely to break into a house that looks like it might be unoccupied (potentially putting everyone involved in a bad position).
> 
> I'd rather have the house look occupied. I'm not talking about lighting up the house so it's visible from outer space, but I'm not trying to hide the fact that I have lights.
> 
> 
> Sure, some folks might wonder what other preparations I might have other than lights. I also want them to wonder just how many thousand rounds I might have stockpiled too. Difference in opinion I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> Max



That's a good point, Max. I was applying the, Out of sight, Out of mind philosophy to the scenario (which may not be appropriate). You've also made me realize I need more bodies at my home to use the available tools. I'm not worried about the standard issue, opportunistic looter as much as an organized group of armed individuals who are trying to become king of the hill.


----------



## bluemax_1

MoBait said:


> That's a good point, Max. I was applying the, Out of sight, Out of mind philosophy to the scenario (which may not be appropriate). You've also made me realize I need more bodies at my home to use the available tools. I'm not worried about the standard issue, opportunistic looter as much as an organized group of armed individuals who are trying to become king of the hill.


The organized group of armed individuals scenario, while possible, is much less likely unless we're talking about an extremely extended outage coupled with a severe breakdown in infrastructure TEOTWAWKI type incident (or unless we're talking about governmental/military 'appropriation' of resources/supplies).

Even in a widespread power outage lasting a couple of weeks (or over a month?) such as occurred with hurricane Katrina, you get the opportunistic looters, but not so much the roving bands of armed marauders.

In the case of... I can't believe I forgot his screen name, but he started the Emergency Water supply Epiphany thread. The guy who bugged in during Katrina. He DID hide the fact that they stayed (and took steps to hide evidence of their presence in the home) because the authorities were forcing evacuation.

IIRC, he mentioned that in that particular case, many more civilians were shot and killed by local authorities than by any criminals/looters/burglars (assuming you don't group the authorities in the same league after they come and take away your legally registered firearms as they did in that case).


Max


----------



## Archangel

bluemax_1 said:


> In the case of... I can't believe I forgot his screen name, but he started the Emergency Water supply Epiphany thread. The guy who bugged in during Katrina. He DID hide the fact that they stayed (and took steps to hide evidence of their presence in the home) because the authorities were forcing evacuation.



You're thinking of Sub_Umbra.


----------



## bluemax_1

Archangel said:


> You're thinking of Sub_Umbra.


That's it!


Max


----------



## SDM44

I have a few Pak Lights around the house, and tested on a standard alkaline 9V battery on the low setting, it has easily gone for 15-17 days (8-9 hours a night, as a night light for the baby) before being far too dim and needing another 9V. I mainly did this to test the length/life of how long these would last.

Depending on the room size, the low setting is enough lighting to be able to see what's going on in the shower inside a bathroom, or have plenty of ambient light in a bedroom. On the brighter setting, it's plenty enough in our dining room area for eating and in other larger rooms. Granted, our eyes are adjusted to the darkness by then but still it's plenty of light to easily see what you're doing and what you're eating.


Otherwise, I have lots of AA & AAA batteries (both fresh akalines and rechargeable eneloops), CR123 batteries and 16340 batteries, and a bunch of spare 18650 3100mAh Eagle Tacs that I picked up when on sale awhile back. Most of my flashlights use a single 18650 (or 2 x CR123's) so I can get by for weeks with what I have. Not to mention the rechargeable ones all charge pretty fast (except for the large 18650's) with my portable Nomad solar panel.

In a power outage situation, I'm not worried at about with the lighting I'll have. I'd be more worried about other resources (for a family of 4, with a 2 and 5 year old)


----------



## ForrestChump

SDM44 said:


> I have a few Pak Lights around the house, and tested on a standard alkaline 9V battery on the low setting, it has easily gone for 15-17 days (8-9 hours a night, as a night light for the baby) before being far too dim and needing another 9V. I mainly did this to test the length/life of how long these would last.
> 
> Depending on the room size, the low setting is enough lighting to be able to see what's going on in the shower inside a bathroom, or have plenty of ambient light in a bedroom. On the brighter setting, it's plenty enough in our dining room area for eating and in other larger rooms. Granted, our eyes are adjusted to the darkness by then but still it's plenty of light to easily see what you're doing and what you're eating.
> 
> 
> Otherwise, I have lots of AA & AAA batteries (both fresh akalines and rechargeable eneloops), CR123 batteries and 16340 batteries, and a bunch of spare 18650 3100mAh Eagle Tacs that I picked up when on sale awhile back. Most of my flashlights use a single 18650 (or 2 x CR123's) so I can get by for weeks with what I have. Not to mention the rechargeable ones all charge pretty fast (except for the large 18650's) with my portable Nomad solar panel.
> 
> In a power outage situation, I'm not worried at about with the lighting I'll have. I'd be more worried about other resources (for a family of 4, with a 2 and 5 year old)




+1


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## reppans

SDM44 said:


> I have a few Pak Lights around the house, and tested on a standard alkaline 9V battery on the low setting, it has easily gone for 15-17 days (8-9 hours a night, as a night light for the baby) before being far too dim and needing another 9V. I mainly did this to test the length/life of how long these would last.



Interesting runtime info - that's less than 200 hrs (spec 600hrs) at what I measure to be ~ 0.6 lms at the start (fresh cell). Someone here did a Paklite runtime test and got ~3000 hrs on an Alk 9v IIRC, but I guess 90% of that run must have been very dim. I know the Pak-lite is unregulated, but I originally thought it would test better than moonlight mode flashlights... but maybe not.

I tested a D40A over 250 hrs @ 0.7lms and both an Quark XML and Malkoff MDC AA over 350 hrs @ 0.3-0.4 lms on a 9V Alk (well actually on 9V AAAAs extrapolated)... Reglutated output throughout the run, of course.

But I agree with the output level, anything around 0.5 lumens is enough to live by if you just let your eyes dark adapt a bit - a great compromise between bright enough, and crazy long runtimes.


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## Poppy

reppans said:


> Interesting runtime info - that's less than 200 hrs (spec 600hrs) at what I measure to be ~ 0.6 lms at the start (fresh cell). Someone here did a Paklite runtime test and got ~3000 hrs on an Alk 9v IIRC, but I guess 90% of that run must have been very dim. I know the Pak-lite is unregulated, but I originally thought it would test better than moonlight mode flashlights... but maybe not.
> 
> I tested a D40A over 250 hrs @ 0.7lms and both an Quark XML and Malkoff MDC AA over 350 hrs @ 0.3-0.4 lms on a 9V Alk (well actually on 9V AAAAs extrapolated)... Reglutated output throughout the run, of course.
> 
> But I agree with the output level, anything around 0.5 lumens is enough to live by if you just let your eyes dark adapt a bit - a great compromise between bright enough, and crazy long runtimes.



I imagine that if it is specked to run 600 hours, that at 200 hours, it's probably at 50% which would only be 0.3 lumens, maybe less. I don't have a 0.3 lumen light, but again I imagine that if one comes from a well lit living room with the television on, and walks into the baby's room lit with a mere 0.3 lumens, or less, it would be pretty much useless (until your eyes became dark adjusted) LOL... mine may never adjust well enough for 0.3 lumens


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## Daekar

This thread has reminded me how much I enjoy power outages when I'm not afraid that the pipes in my house will freeze. I think I'm going to wander around without turning on the lights sometime soon.


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## StarHalo

Daekar said:


> I think I'm going to wander around without turning on the lights sometime soon.



Don't forget to join us for Earth Hour.


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## MidnightDistortions

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I got a weather radio that requires 3AA batteries (also has a hand crank), so maybe 6-9 Eneloops for that. I also live by myself so 32AA Eneloops is probably all i will ever need. Right now i only got a 2AA battery to D converter for my LED Maglite, but i plan on ordering the 3AA to D one so i can get more than 8 hours out of the Maglite, need at least 12 Eneloops for that. So 32 Eneloops sound about right for extras. I still need an AA battery charger for my car, some decent solar panels for recharging the batteries and i'd like to get a hand crank to keep some Eneloops charged ready to go, it's something to do too when all the power is out.

During the day, opening the shades is enough unless i need to use the bathroom or the sky is extra cloudy. Otherwise i only really need a flashlight running about 2-3 hours a day.


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## Treeguy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Great thread. 

Getting cold here, snow on the way in a few days, going to grab one of those 32xAA Energizer packs on sale ($20) at Home Depot today and get some fresh gas and gas stabilizer for the generator. Maybe start the winter stock up for emergency food.

Far as I'm concerned, two things are written in stone concerning emergencies: (1) It's infinitely more likely you'll have to bug in than bug out. (2) Follow H.D.Thoreau's advice, "Simplify! Simplify!"


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## Telly

We survived 4 days without electricity on around 16 AA and 8 AAA rechargeables. 1 ceiling bounce light in the living room, one lantern in the kitchen one all around "carry" for bathroom trips and one light reflected in a CD case dome'










Kids survived by annoying each other with old lights and GID loombands


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## kaichu dento

Telly said:


> We survived 4 days without electricity ... and one light reflected in a CD case dome'


This is great and might even be worth attaching a couple of non-EDC lights to them for this express purpose!


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## StarHalo

Telly said:


> one light reflected in a CD case dome



Put a mirror in the bottom of it, and use a warm light next time, kitchens look awful in cold light..


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## Poppy

Telly,
Thanks for posting. I'm glad that you and the kids survived 

What is that lantern in the back-ground over the kitchen sink? It looks like a nice warm tint.


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## Rod911

When I was doing a list of lights that I have, I also did a battery count. Before you know it, I was also listing types of LED, tint, bins, etc. ANY WAY, I think I have around 40,000 lumens (on maximum) and have at least 141 different batteries (14500, 18650, 26650, AA, AAA) that can be used. All this is divided among 32 different light sources (torches and lanterns). 

Along with the lights, I do have at least three different powerbanks that can be used to power up USB devices (ie. smartphones and whatnot).


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## Poppy

Hi there Rod911,
You have a lot of light and batteries. 

How would you answer this question? The purpose of the answer is to be instructional/educational to someone who only has an old 2D incan light and wants to be prepared for a 7 day outage.



> Let's say there is an extended power outage 5-7 days, and you are a family of four. Two adults, and two children ages 5 and 10.
> Let's say that you can recharge your batteries each day, (either using your car's battery and alternator for power, or by driving to a location that still has power). OR if you use alkalines, how many will you need for a week?


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## Rod911

Assuming the two children share a bedroom together, thus, a two bedroom house in a suburban setting, I'd say four. However, from the lights that I have, it would be the following:

1. Zebralight SC6330vn - high lumens when needed, but has the ability to hit the lower settings as well. It does this with good efficiency. Requires 3*18650, will need another 3*18650 as spares.
2. Sunwayman D40A with a diffuser. I have previously used this combo as a lantern/night light at moon mode and it gives good area lighting. Its main purpose will be used as a lantern, but, with the removal of the diffuser, it's a flashlight again. Uses 4*AA, will keep another 4*AA as spares.
3. Zebralight SC52w. Versatile light. Uses both 14500 or AAs. I use a 14500 because if I need the 500 lumens, I'll have it on tap. The efficiency on it is nearly the same for both 14500 or AA. Also, at its lower settings, you can use alkalines with relative easiness of them not leaking. For cells, it uses 1*14500, but keep 1*14500 and 2*AA as spares.
4. Klarus P2A. It has a simple interface. Something that I would be comfortable giving to the kids. Its low mode of 33 lumens and burning for 33 hours is plenty bright and great run time, especially if you were to only use the light when it gets dark. It uses 2*AA, but I'd like to keep 4*AA as spares.

So all up, in terms of cells, 6*18650s, 2*14500 and 16*AA. As for the charger, it'll have to be a Nitecore D4 as it handles all the sizes and chemistries along with the fact that it can be run off a 12V source.

However, having said all that, to make things a little bit more simpler, I could simply go for a straight up 18650 only setup. I have yet to have these lights in my hand, but getting 3 BLF Eagle Eye X6 would replace all the AA torches. Its head is around 39mm, so the diffuser that I linked to fits. It has very usable modes, with the exception of no moon mode available. Also, these things are comparable in size to a typical P60 or C8 light.

On top of the above, to keep the kids entertained, and I guess, myself included, get yourself a powerbank of some sort to keep your smart gadgets up and running. I've got one of these and that uses up 4*18650 cells. I currently use NCR18650A (3100mAh), so it has a total of 12,400mAh in capacity. However, it is happy to be fed with laptop pulled cells, just as long as said cells are unprotected as protected cells are a very, very tight squeeze.


----------



## Poppy

Rod911 said:


> Assuming the two children share a bedroom together, thus, a two bedroom house in a suburban setting, I'd say four. However, from the lights that I have, it would be the following:
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> So all up, in terms of cells, 6*18650s, 2*14500 and 16*AA. As for the charger, it'll have to be a Nitecore D4 as it handles all the sizes and chemistries along with the fact that it can be run off a 12V source.
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> On top of the above, to keep the kids entertained, and I guess, myself included, *get yourself a powerbank of some sort to keep your smart gadgets up and running*. I've got one of these and that uses up 4*18650 cells.<SNIP> .



Rod911,
Thanks for the very reasoned response. I agree, I'd probably use the capacity of 1-2 18650s a day ((either 1-2 18650s, or 6-8 duraloops) to light the main room) and another couple of duraloops for extraneous lighting, each day. The recommendation of having a means to recharge smart gadgets is difficult to understate. Access to the internet can keep one informed about the goings on, when television is otherwise interrupted. 

I also agree, that a charger that can run off of a 12V source is KEY.


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## bluemax_1

StarHalo said:


> Put a mirror in the bottom of it, and use a warm light next time, kitchens look awful in cold light..



Really like the CD case idea. Innovation is awesome. Go MacGyver! And a simple solution to the mirror is to simply flip a CD over. Not quite as reflective as a real mirror, but handily available and fits perfectly.

Not sure if I mentioned it in this thread, but in the old days before battery efficient LED lights, during blackouts, my parents would use those typical long white candles on a soup/tuna can placed in a white enamel basin half-filled with water.

It served a dual purpose of reflecting more light at the white ceilings AND ensuring that the candles weren't a fire hazard if they inadvertently fell over.



Max


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## bright star

If the power goes out around my neighborhood my Fenix LD 41 680 lumens will more than surfice. If the power outage is bigger I can of course draw on my Jetbeam BC 40 900 lumens excellent all-around light. :laughing:


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## Poppy

bright star said:


> If the power goes out around my neighborhood my Fenix LD 41 680 lumens will more than surfice. If the power outage is bigger I can of course draw on my Jetbeam BC 40 900 lumens excellent all-around light. :laughing:


Wow! You are using a LOT of light!  I like light too! 
The LD41 has a run time of 75 minutes with 4AAs, and the BC40 3.9 hours with 2*18650s.
How many batteries will you need for a family of four, two of which are children (ages 5 and 10), for a week long outage?
Here's the original question/scenario.


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## Telly

Poppy said:


> Telly,
> Thanks for posting. I'm glad that you and the kids survived
> 
> What is that lantern in the back-ground over the kitchen sink? It looks like a nice warm tint.



It's an old incan Eveready Sport gear - 10 years and still helpful



> Put a mirror in the bottom of it, and use a warm light next time, kitchens look awful in cold light..


@Starhalo
It has a foil dome at the bottom. and we had to use what we had.. The warm light was on ceiling bounce at the living room since we were always there


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## Treeguy

Well, the snow is on the ground and the nights are in the -10 zone already, so it's winter preparedness time. _Again. _

One thing for sure, there ain't no buggin' out going on around these parts when things get dark and cold and weird. It's buggin' in, all buggin' in, and nothing but buggin' in. The only time anyone would need to bug out is because they didn't spend ten-minutes planning for a bug in. Odds are we're going to have a good power outage this winter the way the weather is getting funky. And when the power goes out we'll face: blizzard conditions, impassable roads, pitch dark at 5PM, roofs that need emergency shovelling lest they collapse, and the inevitable cold snap that will follow the storm or breakdown. So as soon as the storm is over and you`re cleaning up, the sky will clear and it will to drop to -20 in a heartbeat and stay that way. And the power will still be out for days. Happens every time. Add to this at least two to three-days of no to low gasoline availability, no to low propane tank availability, and a crappy drive in crappy weather on crappy roads to get it if you can find it.

How many lumens and how many batteries? The way I see it, low to medium lumens in lights that take standard and standardized batteries. I have my lights and batteries for the season, just filled the generator with gas (treated with stabilizer) and gave it a test run to keep it happy, and now I have to grab some emergency food and shove it to the back of the cupboard. And have to be conscious of keeping the car gassed up and the roof cleared. You have no idea how many ******* dimwits around here let several feet of snow build up on their roof, refuse to have it cleared because they`re cheap and want to wait until there`s enough up there to "make it worthwhile" to pay someone to shovel it, and then scream and cry and beg, all of them, all at once, when the power goes out and the trees crash down and then two or three feet of snow falls in the space of a day or two. 

Morons. Seriously. Every year it`s the exact same thing. Grrrrrrr!

My rule: Keep it simple, keep it practical, and keep it affordable.

Kinda fun to be a caveman and plan for a bug in.


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## silvercookie

Oh man this is going to take a bit. As of late i have been trying to only buy lights that used rechargeable 18650's just so i know i can always swap batteries around if need be.
When i get home from work i will have to write up a list and take pictures of my collection.

This one is my my all time favorite though. Got it on ebay for $12 about 3 years ago. Never had a problem or let me down. Pretty sure it is a ultra-fire but can't remember.
5 mode. I believe on high it is ~400 lumens iirc. 

I carry it with me everywhere i go.


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## think2x

First I have a Surefire LEGO running a Malkoff M31LL (40-50 lumens)that can be configured to run from 1xcr123, 1xAA or 1xAAA. For this set up I have roughly 12-16 depleted cr123's which this light gladly runs on, half a dozen alkaline AA/AAA, 6 AAA NiMh and 8 AA NiMh.




Second I have a Safe-Lite Palight and a couple of 9V batteries for it.

Third I have just put this set up together since I'm not currently using the host. 
Fivemega P60 4.2V 2x18650(parallel) Maglite with Malkoff M61LLL (50 lumens) and 2-Redilast 2900ma 18650's.
Should be good for around 55 hours on the 2-Redilast's or 65 hours if I run it on my Keepower 3400's










These are lights I have on hand in case the need arises, I have other lights for EDC purposes. While sometimes brighter would be better for room lighting I feel these 50 lumen modules put out an "adequate" amount of light for most tasks in an outage scenario. This time of the year it is dark enough to need a light by 6pm so my family of four would need roughly 4-5 hours of light a night. I feel that the dual 18650 light itself would last the entire week. Using the Surefire LEGO as a secondary light so we wouldn't have to stay together 100% of the time I feel like 6 fresh CR123 primaries would be enough for a weeks worth of 4-5 hours/night of light.


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## C-130

I have two Fenix LD20's that I've had for years now and they really came in handy during power outages.I just set them on low and had plenty of light.


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## Telly

Living in a part of the world where earthquakes, cyclones, storm surge, volcano eruptions are normal - We have learned that disasters(power outages included), are like marriage - No matter how much you think you're prepared - You are never prepared well enough

BUT

Being prepared is always better than not prepared


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## Treeguy

I'm into hour 12 of a power failure right now. Big winds. The generator is hooked up keeping the freezer frozen and things charged, I run it for an hour at a time. I figured I'd go on the net for a few minutes. Pretty comfortable power failure so far. 

Only one gas station open close by, two of the pumps weren't working, but I got there and grabbed twenty liters of premium for the generator and the saws right before the lineup went from five cars to twenty, so good timing. Should have done that days ago, shmuck that I am.

And of course the AA lights have been the star of the show.:thumbsup:


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## StarHalo

Treeguy said:


> And of course the AA lights have been the star of the show.:thumbsup:



That's how it usually plays out for me too, can't beat the format that has _all_ the chemistries..


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## Philip2

Poppy said:


> Let's say there is an extended power outage 5-7 days, and you are a family of four. Two adults, and two children ages 5 and 10.
> Let's say that you can recharge your batteries each day, (either using your car's battery and alternator for power, or by driving to a location that still has power). OR if you use alkalines, how many will you need for a week?
> 
> Please consider,
> Which rooms, and how many rooms would you like to have light;
> 
> How many lumens, you would like in each room;
> would there be enough light to read or play a board game without a supplemental headlamp?
> 
> What kinds of, and how many batteries would you need to be able to supply sufficient energy for five hours each night.
> 
> Additionally would each person also have a light? If so why? To use intermittently, to go to the bathroom? or to supplement a relatively low level of light (perhaps use a headlamp for reading) What would be their power needs?
> 
> How many alkalines would you need?
> 
> How many batteries would you have to charge each day?
> Eneloops AAAs, AAs,
> 18650's
> others?



IMO each person needs his own battery light in a long term power outage. And disaster preparation should better be for much harsher situations like a flood or nuclear fallout scenario. So don't count on recharge possibilities, since your car might be stolen or vandalised, or out of gas, etc. 

I would suggest to give each person his own lightweight and compact headlight that runs on one AA battery. AA batteries are widely available for money or barter. A headlight offers handsfree operation which is very important in emergencies, especially if you must act fast like in a rescue operation, roof repair, etc. 

Choose a headlight with different brightness levels, including 0.5 or even 0.1 lumens. 0.5 lumens is IMO enough for many household tasks, since your eyes quickly adapt to low light conditions. And in case you have to evacuate on foot with camping/survival gear in a backpack, you can carry only a few batteries, since they are heavy, and you need also (heavy) drinking water etc. 

Water resistance is important for a headlight. Automatic SOS mode and slow strobe are benefits.


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## ForrestChump

Philip2 said:


> IMO each person needs his own battery light in a long term power outage. And disaster preparation should better be for much harsher situations like a flood or nuclear fallout scenario.* So don't count on recharge possibilities*, since your car might be stolen or vandalised, or out of gas, etc.
> 
> I would suggest to give each person his own lightweight and compact headlight that runs on one AA battery. AA batteries are widely available for money or barter. A headlight offers handsfree operation which is very important in emergencies, especially if you must act fast like in a rescue operation, roof repair, etc.
> 
> Choose a headlight with different brightness levels, including 0.5 or even 0.1 lumens. 0.5 lumens is IMO enough for many household tasks, since your eyes quickly adapt to low light conditions. And in case you have to evacuate on foot with camping/survival gear in a backpack, you can carry only a few batteries, since they are heavy, and you need also (heavy) drinking water etc.
> 
> Water resistance is important for a headlight. Automatic SOS mode and slow strobe are benefits.



I've said it before and will say it again, pack primary lithiums accordingly, use sparingly. This is the only fail safe sans something strong enough to fry them.


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## Poppy

From the energizer site:
*Specifications: * 

Size: AA (L91 Model) Lithiums
Dimensions: Diameter 14.5 mm(0.6") x Height 50 mm (2.0")
Voltage: 1.5V (1.72V initial peak)
*Capacity: 3000mAh* Ultra High Capacity; twice run-time compares to normal AA Alkaline battery


Duracell Rechargeables:
Actual capacity testing by CPF users show the Duarcells to have a 2400ma capacity.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ell-Ion-Core-AA-amp-AAA&p=4502719#post4502719

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do keep some L91s in my car, but not in the house.

I also stock up annually on some alkalines, but more and more my gadgets are loaded with Duracell rechargeables. 

If society breaks down to the point that someone vandalizes my car; they won't get mine, and all of my neighbor's cars. IF there are many around, but out of gas, well, their batteries will still be charged.


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## Romanko

StarHalo said:


> Do you have power outages often there?


There were already some outages. In my area were no outages, maybe because I live in the capital. But it was in other towns almost all over country. We have an energetic crisis, because of war, can't mine coal in the area where it is.


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## jmpaul320

I have 50+ eneloops that are charged and a number of aa lights... I also keep around 20 18650s 85% charged in storage (they are 4.35v cells that i keep at 4.2v on the shelf)


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## kj2

Received 50 Duracell CR123's last week. Put those in a yellow B&W Outdoor case, so I can easily spot my battery-case 
Always have 14x AA Eneloops and 8x AA Duracell ready to be used. And next to that I've 4x Eagletac 3100 and 3400 18650 batteries. And have 4x D-cell Tenergy 10.000mAh.
Should have light for at least a week.  (or more)


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## Berneck1

I think with little children the battery type is important. 9V batteries can give them a good shock if they put them in their mouth. I've read about the dangers of Li-ion batteries, but have never had issues myself. So, if I had to recommend something, I would probably avoid Li-ion if kids are involved. Which leaves common battery types AA, AAA, C and D. I personally use Eneloops or primary lithiums, as they are not prone to leaking the way the alkalines are. I've had "emergency" flashlights in the past ruined by leaking alkalines.

I have a couple of LED lanterns. The latest is the 60-Day lantern by UST. It uses six D batteries, and the run times are excellent. It can run on the 18 lumen low for over sixty days straight! While not very bright, it is very useable light when it's dark. At the high of 500 lumens it runs for three days straight, and can illuminate an entire room. It is an impressive lantern. I use the Tenergy LSD D-Cells. Lanterns are a good option that I think many people overlook. 

As far as flashlights, there are some good multi-AA lights with increasingly impressive run times due to the improvements in LED efficiency. There are a ton to choose from. One of my favorites is the Thrunite Neutron 2A V2. It can put out 800 lumens on two AA batteries! Of course the lower levels are what you'll need in a power outage. I don't consider this light an EDC because the switch is too easily activated in the pocket. However, it's a great household light.




Sent from my iPad using Candlepowerforums


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## reppans

Berneck1 said:


> I think with little children the battery type is important. 9V batteries can give them a good shock if they put them in their mouth.



hehe... I used to give my kids 9Vs to break them of the habit of putting things in their mouths.


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## kaichu dento

reppans said:


> hehe... I used to give my kids 9Vs to break them of the habit of putting things in their mouths.


I used to love 9volt batteries for that very reason, and still do because they're the quickest and easiest of all batteries to test!


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## Berneck1

reppans said:


> hehe... I used to give my kids 9Vs to break them of the habit of putting things in their mouths.



Lol love it


Sent from my iPad using Candlepowerforums


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## Taz80

I just picked up a Milwaukee led lantern for my M12 batteries. It's 400 lumens on high with a medium, low and slow strobe. The lantern is 180 or 360 with what Milwaukee calls true color, a nice neutral to slightly warm tint. It's going to be a work light, but will double as a power outage light and since I have quite a few M12 batteries it will supplement my flashlights very well. It also has a USB charging port.


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## ForrestChump

Berneck1 said:


> I think with little children the battery type is important.* 9V batteries can give them a good shock if they put them in their mouth.* I've read about the dangers of Li-ion batteries, but have never had issues myself. So, if I had to recommend something, I would probably avoid Li-ion if kids are involved. Which leaves common battery types AA, AAA, C and D. I personally use Eneloops or primary lithiums, as they are not prone to leaking the way the alkalines are. I've had "emergency" flashlights in the past ruined by leaking alkalines.
> 
> I have a couple of LED lanterns. The latest is the 60-Day lantern by UST. It uses six D batteries, and the run times are excellent. It can run on the 18 lumen low for over sixty days straight! While not very bright, it is very useable light when it's dark. At the high of 500 lumens it runs for three days straight, and can illuminate an entire room. It is an impressive lantern. I use the Tenergy LSD D-Cells. Lanterns are a good option that I think many people overlook.
> 
> As far as flashlights, there are some good multi-AA lights with increasingly impressive run times due to the improvements in LED efficiency. There are a ton to choose from. One of my favorites is the Thrunite Neutron 2A V2. It can put out 800 lumens on two AA batteries! Of course the lower levels are what you'll need in a power outage. I don't consider this light an EDC because the switch is too easily activated in the pocket. However, it's a great household light.



I used to chew on Alkaline batteries every once in awhile when I was young. Tongue shocks on 9V were fun. Im still here, sort of.... 

All not kidding aside, keep cells in high, dry places especially around kids.


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## bright star

as one flashlight retailer told me ( you can never have to many light;s) lol.. turn;s out he was right....


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## ForrestChump

Romanko said:


> There were already some outages. In my area were no outages, maybe because I live in the capital. But it was in other towns almost all over country. We have an energetic crisis, because of war, can't mine coal in the area where it is.




Hey Romanko,

Good luck to you. I hope things improve for you quickly.

Take care of yourself and your family.

Best wishes.


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## blah9

Thought we were going to have an outage today because the lights were flickering. They managed to hang on though so I didn't have to use my stash of 18650 lights. I have way more lights and batteries than are really necessary for most outages, but if I wanted to use the lights on their highest modes I would need more batteries or a solar charging solution.


----------



## Poppy

Berneck1 said:


> I have a couple of LED lanterns. The latest is the *60-Day lantern by UST. It uses six D batteries, and the run times are excellent*. It can run on the 18 lumen low for over sixty days straight! While not very bright, it is very useable light when it's dark. At the high of 500 lumens it runs for three days straight, and can illuminate an entire room. It is an impressive lantern. *I use the Tenergy LSD D-Cells*. Lanterns are a good option that I think many people overlook.




I have been fooling with a 3D cell lantern, and am waiting for parts to come in to modify it, but I have learned that D cell alkalines are pretty crappy under heavy loads, but under low loads, they have a similar capacity as an 18650. I think that pretty much any 3D LED lantern that has a 40 lumen or lower setting will run at that level for about 170 hours. Many lanterns emit a lot of glare at higher outputs anyway.

Berneck1, would you say that the Tenergy cells do a much better job at running the lantern on high when compared to alkaline cells?


----------



## ForrestChump

Poppy said:


> I have been fooling with a 3D cell lantern, and am waiting for parts to come in to modify it, but I have learned that D cell alkalines are pretty crappy under heavy loads, but under low loads, they have a similar capacity as an 18650. I think that pretty much any 3D LED lantern that has a 40 lumen or lower setting will run at that level for about 170 hours. Many lanterns emit a lot of glare at higher outputs anyway.
> 
> Berneck1, would you say that the Tenergy cells do a much better job at running the lantern on high when compared to alkaline cells?




Still looking for that perfect lantern?

Have you seen the Fenix CL20? Takes AA or CR123.


----------



## Berneck1

Poppy said:


> I have been fooling with a 3D cell lantern, and am waiting for parts to come in to modify it, but I have learned that D cell alkalines are pretty crappy under heavy loads, but under low loads, they have a similar capacity as an 18650. I think that pretty much any 3D LED lantern that has a 40 lumen or lower setting will run at that level for about 170 hours. Many lanterns emit a lot of glare at higher outputs anyway.
> 
> Berneck1, would you say that the Tenergy cells do a much better job at running the lantern on high when compared to alkaline cells?



I haven't tested it enough to really know. There have been some reviews that attest to the excellent run times of these lanterns using alkalines. I use the Tenergy cells because there is a lower likelihood of leaking. I had some D cell alkalines leak in the past. However, I have read where the Tenergy cells are better at heavier loads compared to alkalines, so I would expect a somewhat better performance. 


Sent from my iPad using Candlepowerforums


----------



## Berneck1

ForrestChump said:


> Still looking for that perfect lantern?
> 
> Have you seen the Fenix CL20? Takes AA or CR123.



I can't really refer to that as a perfect lantern. They are really designed for camping in a tent. The runs times are nothing compared to the UST lanterns. However, that's to be expected since one takes 6 D cells and the other is 2 AAs. Not sure if there's a way to compare the performance. 

I think in a house, I would prefer the more powerful UST lanterns. They are just more versatile, in my opinion. Also, it's not a bad I idea to have light sources that take different battery types. The AAs always sell faster than the Ds or Cs in an outage. So, both lanterns would serve a purpose. It's just that the UST will last A LOT longer before you have to change the batteries.




Sent from my iPad using Candlepowerforums


----------



## reppans

I'm into multi-purpose EDC pocketability - here's my new 2/20/80 lumen, current-regulated, D-cell, "keychain lantern".... (Well, minus the D-cell on the keychain, of course ).


----------



## Berneck1

reppans said:


> I'm into multi-purpose EDC pocketability - here's my new 2/20/80 lumen, current-regulated, D-cell, "keychain lantern".... (Well, minus the D-cell on the keychain, of course ).



Haha nicely done


Sent from my iPad using Candlepowerforums


----------



## Jas29

Just had a power outage that lasted 24 hours. I found that candles were much more useful inside the house than a flashlight. Used a since AA flashlight which was a thrower rather then floodlight to go to my neighbors house to drop off some candles.

Had 1 AA flashlight favour brand I think (Only 1 that was used)
Ratcheting flashlight that you can spin the lever on if the battery dies
Mini maglite
Olight s20r under the christmas tree (Dads xmas gift)


----------



## Treeguy

ForrestChump said:


> Still looking for that perfect lantern?
> 
> Have you seen the Fenix CL20? Takes AA or CR123.



Just checked it out. Kinda neat. Not sure about the $45 price tag, but if it's well made, so be it.

Still waiting for Home Depot to stock the Rayovac Indestructible lantern. They are very slow to stock the new stuff.


----------



## thinkFlashlights01

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

For that situation, I would think that the adults would have a bright flashlight with a low mode that can last a long time. (Maybe a Fenix ld60?) the kids would have smaller, cheaper lights. (Coast hp5?) And if you are going 10am to 6pm for the blackout, The Fenix light would last 18 days! (On Eco mode) and the coast (assuming 24 alkies for each child) would last 18 days on low mode. They would need extra batteries for each child because of normal differentiating things with batteries.:candle: Or how about a dollar store light?


----------



## ForrestChump

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Finalized roster as my collection is now closed after an exhausting search. This will also be my BOB setup. 

HDS 120

P3X

Tikka

24 Spare CR123

3 spare lithium AAA.


----------



## Discman

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Wow, how long can you actually store those CR123s before it expiry?


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Discman said:


> Wow, how long can you actually store those CR123s before it expiry?



10 years at least. I have some SureFire CR123 batteries that I bought in 2003-2004 that still work fine. I don't use CR123s in my lights these days, so those are just leftover spares.


Max


----------



## Poppy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Discman said:


> Wow, how long can you actually store those CR123s before it expiry?


Energizer lists, their AA Advanced Lithiums @ 10 years, and AA Ultimate Lithiums @ 15 years shelf life.


----------



## ForrestChump

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Poppy said:


> Energizer lists, their AA Advanced Lithiums @ 10 years, and AA Ultimate Lithiums @ 15 years shelf life.




Just checked the rack at target "Energizer Ultimate Lithiums" 20 years their advertising now! Like you said it was just 15 a few seconds ago! Not sure how much of that is marketing?


----------



## ForrestChump

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Discman said:


> Wow, how long can you actually store those CR123s before it expiry?



Yeah, that breaks down to ruffly 3,180 Hrs. Thats over 4 hours of light per night for 4 years using the HDS and just 2 sets in the petzl.

I think I'll be aight.


----------



## MidnightDistortions

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Discman said:


> Wow, how long can you actually store those CR123s before it expiry?





bluemax_1 said:


> 10 years at least. I have some SureFire CR123 batteries that I bought in 2003-2004 that still work fine. I don't use CR123s in my lights these days, so those are just leftover spares.
> 
> 
> Max





Poppy said:


> Energizer lists, their AA Advanced Lithiums @ 10 years, and AA Ultimate Lithiums @ 15 years shelf life.



Would be nice to know the manufactured date or expiration dates, i end up only buying what i need and have no spares so they are operating in use instead of slowly depreciating in storage. I got 4 devices running on the 2032s i only got a couple on CR123s. Sometimes i get 2032s from old desktop PCs that still work so i'm not too worried of running out of those cells when the main ones die off.


----------



## Poppy

reppans said:


> I'm into multi-purpose EDC pocketability - here's my new 2/20/80 lumen, current-regulated, D-cell, "keychain lantern".... (Well, minus the D-cell on the keychain, of course ).



Dear reppans,
You know... I am a McGyver junkie. 
A single D cell has, what? 4 to 12 times the capacity of a AA or AAA battery?

Please share with us, HOW you did this.


----------



## C.M.S

Are those Energizer lanterns from Walmart or Target any good in the event of a long term power outage ?


----------



## reppans

Poppy said:


> Dear reppans,
> You know... I am a McGyver junkie.
> A single D cell has, what? 4 to 12 times the capacity of a AA or AAA battery?
> 
> Please share with us, HOW you did this.



Hey Poppy, just based on Energizer's datasheets, it seems ~ 7x to 17x. You have a PM


----------



## Poppy

C.M.S said:


> Are those Energizer lanterns from Walmart or Target any good in the event of a long term power outage ?



Typically, lanterns don't do really well for indoor lighting because they typically create a lot of glare, and ceiling bounced flashlights do a better job. But when you are out-doors, ceiling bouncing is not often an option 

Energizer came up with a way to reduce glare to a minimum by bottom lighting a diffused light panel. They call it "Light Fusion Technology"

zespectre wrote a nice "Real World Review" of the 300 Lumen Energizer Folding Lantern with light fusion technology.
The high points are: it is a regulated light, runs on 4, OR 8 AA batteries/eneloops, it is electronically dim-able, (300 high, 30 lumens low, and anywhere in-between), 180 or 360 degree output, and manages glare extremely well, even at high output. The tint appears to be a neutral white. I liked it so much that I soldered a USB cable to it so that I can run mine from an 18650 power bank. I then had to try out it's little brother the 150 lumen Pop Up Lantern.

I wrote a brief review of the Energizer 150 lumen Pop Up Lantern
It is also regulated, handles glare very well, is compact, is electronically dimmable 150 to 15 lumens, and everywhere in-between, and it has a NW tint. It runs about 8.5 hours on high, and about 75 hours on low, on four duraloops. It is currently only $15 online at Target, and they honor the online price at the store, thereby eliminating the shipping charges. IMO, a super deal. 

I also wrote a review of the Walmart "Ozark Trail 300 Lumen Lantern" 
It is a low cost ($14.97) single Cree XB-D emitter and runs on three D cells. 
It has a high and low and just uses two different resistors. 
It has a CW tint, but not a terrible blue. For a couple of dollars I picked up a warm/NW XB-D and it was very easy to swap it in.
A little more challenging was to remove the inner diffuser and swap in one that was a little better.
What really impressed me with this lantern was how long 3 D alkaline cells can power an LED lantern under low loads. I imagine that just about any 3D cell lantern that starts at 50 lumens or less, will run for 7 hours a night for a month. In other words, each D cell (under low loads) will have a similar capacity to a 18650 cell.


----------



## bluemax_1

Thanks for the info Poppy. I have the Siege and UST 30-day lanterns and the much cheaper Ozark lantern is interesting. I'll have to pick one up at Wally World.

That Energizer lantern is even more interesting. Might be just the ticket for working on the car.


Max


----------



## ryukin2000

i finally had a change to play with one of these energizer lanterns at a friends place. pretty neat. its peaked my interested since Poppy did a short review of it. but its too bad target sells it over here in Canada for $25. $30 for the bigger one. 

as to reppans mod. its ingenious. someone or even foursevens needs to make a D cell body that will fit the low voltage Quark heads. i would be all over it. sure it make look funny but the practicality of it is awesome.


----------



## Treeguy

Good post and good review, Poppy. 

I like those lanterns but I'm still holding out for the Rayovac Indestructible lantern. Unfortunately no one carries it yet. Home Depot has a great flashlight wall, best around here, tons of stuff, but it's like a 2013 greatest hits list.


----------



## Poppy

bluemax_1 said:


> Thanks for the info Poppy. I have the Siege and UST 30-day lanterns and the much cheaper Ozark lantern is interesting. I'll have to pick one up at Wally World.
> 
> That Energizer lantern is even more interesting. Might be just the ticket for working on the car.
> 
> 
> Max



Max,
This is what jmsodpc had to say...


jmsodpc said:


> so i bought the ozark lantern today from walmart for $15....i tried it out and i like it. i have two siege lanterns and think they are nicer and have some nicer features (the hooks for hanging are nicer, the led lit on switch is nicer, and the fit and finish is nicer). that being said..*this ozark lantern cost half the price...i dont think the siege is twice as good*...overall i think its a good purchase and think it will be just fine in a black out.



martinaee did a nice review of the Streamlight Siege with some run-time/out-put pictures of it running Tenergy NiMH D cells.

From what I have read, the Favourlight Lanterns (Siege, UST, Rayovac S3D) appear to have PWM in the lower settings. So they use some kind of a driver, I would like to see a run-time/out-put graph of them running 3D alkalines. So that they could be compared to the Ozark Trail. 

Certainly we have seen different regulated graphs, I'd like to know what the Siege ones look like.


----------



## maxaman1981

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I'd just have Nightsearcher Trio on each (three) floor that does come on in the event of a power outage. A small adjustment upon activation and they will stay on for 14 hours at half power. I agree that there is not much use in lighting rooms that people arn't in so I light up each hallway with said lights to walk around house rather than indvidual rooms and then I'd do both the streamlight sidewinder compacts with instruction to keep it on the lowest red led for maximum battery life for the two kids, and the ordinary sidewinder for the other adult, again to be kept on the lowest red led and then possibly for me it would have to be my Nightsearcher commander on low mode, as I know how to operate it and get it to that mode and it will get 120 hours per each two battery. But I do rather like the idea of my Streamlight sidewinder (double AA) for me during an outage, due to the 200+ hours of battery life for the red led on low. And the fantastic design of the light making it far easier to change batteries in the dark.


----------



## C.M.S

Poppy said:


> Typically, lanterns don't do really well for indoor lighting because they typically create a lot of glare, and ceiling bounced flashlights do a better job. But when you are out-doors, ceiling bouncing is not often an option
> 
> Energizer came up with a way to reduce glare to a minimum by bottom lighting a diffused light panel. They call it "Light Fusion Technology"
> 
> zespectre wrote a nice "Real World Review" of the 300 Lumen Energizer Folding Lantern with light fusion technology.
> The high points are: it is a regulated light, runs on 4, OR 8 AA batteries/eneloops, it is electronically dim-able, (300 high, 30 lumens low, and anywhere in-between), 180 or 360 degree output, and manages glare extremely well, even at high output. The tint appears to be a neutral white. I liked it so much that I soldered a USB cable to it so that I can run mine from an 18650 power bank. I then had to try out it's little brother the 150 lumen Pop Up Lantern.
> 
> I wrote a brief review of the Energizer 150 lumen Pop Up Lantern
> It is also regulated, handles glare very well, is compact, is electronically dimmable 150 to 15 lumens, and everywhere in-between, and it has a NW tint. It runs about 8.5 hours on high, and about 75 hours on low, on four duraloops. It is currently only $15 online at Target, and they honor the online price at the store, thereby eliminating the shipping charges. IMO, a super deal.
> 
> I also wrote a review of the Walmart "Ozark Trail 300 Lumen Lantern"
> It is a low cost ($14.97) single Cree XB-D emitter and runs on three D cells.
> It has a high and low and just uses two different resistors.
> It has a CW tint, but not a terrible blue. For a couple of dollars I picked up a warm/NW XB-D and it was very easy to swap it in.
> A little more challenging was to remove the inner diffuser and swap in one that was a little better.
> What really impressed me with this lantern was how long 3 D alkaline cells can power an LED lantern under low loads. I imagine that just about any 3D cell lantern that starts at 50 lumens or less, will run for 7 hours a night for a month. In other words, each D cell (under low loads) will have a similar capacity to a 18650 cell.



sounds like I'm going with a few Ozark trail 300's :thumbsup:

Although if Streamlight makes there lanterns as durable as there flashlights I may consider the Siege AA .


----------



## StarHalo

Don't forget the Coleman Table Lantern; *warm emitter behind diffuser, *100 lumen high mode, 4 D cell power (or CPX6 power pack), $19.


----------



## chrisbfu

I have a couple fenix e01's that are great for night use. they run forever and AAA batteries are easy to come by.


----------



## an_abstraction

I recently bought on of those Energizer pop-up lanterns (150 lumen high, dims down to 15 lumens) from Target. Probably the best $20 I've spent on a light. It sits by my bed stand and gets used nightly. Lights up a whole room, even on low.

Most of my other lights are AAA Arc's and Fenix's that get long runtimes off of lithium cells. Plus they can sit indefinitely without the worry of battery leakage.

Low lumens and long runttime always wins for extended power outages.


----------



## Wiggle

Oddly enough I may use my super thrower (k50vn) as my preferred power outage room lighting. It has tons of runtime on medium brightness thanks to 4 x 18650 and it is very stable to tail stand. The narrow beam pattern does not seem to matter on all the ceilings I've bounced it off. It also can direct charge by USB without removing cells so I can use my solar panels or USB battery backup to charge it.


----------



## LedTed

For me, two rooms would normally be lit at about 150 lumens (lm) ceiling bounce for five hours (hrs) a night; living room and bedroom. Two flashlights would be expected to move around the house with their owners. 

Two Single AA led lights: each loaded with one lithium primary AAA (L92) and with four L92s at the ready
8 lumen / 6.00 hrs
85 lm / 0.50 hrs
Shortest combined run times 4 hrs

Four NiteCore (NC) D11.2s: each loaded with one 14505 and with four like 14505 s at the ready
3 lumen (lm) / 100.00 hours (hrs)
145 lm / 1.50 hrs
Shortest combined run times 24 hrs

Cat character flashlight: with two C size batteries installed and two C back up batteries
30 lm and decreasing / 4.00 hrs
Shortest run time 8.00 hrs

Lantern: with four C size batteries installed and four C back up batteries
60 lm and decreasing / 6.00 hrs
Shortest run time 16.00 hrs

Total shortest combined run times 52.00 hrs


All the above plus one NC SRT7: with its two 18650s all on reserve for emergencies
Sub 1 lm / 120.00 hrs
960 lm / 1.25 hrs
Shortest combined run times 2.50 hrs


----------



## Poppy

We are supposed to get 24-30 inches of snow, with wind gusts up to 60 mph in the next 24 hours. This got me doing a little preparation.  

Gas in all the cars, check
Extra gas for the generator, check
top off back up batteries, check
top off laptops, cell phones, tablets, and other toys, check
Food run... extra snacks... bottled water... etc
Pharmacy run needed? Are we good for a week?
Called my Dad, who is in the same storm path, to tell him, to charge his phone, and be sure that he knows where his charger is; that he can plug into his car.
Made sure that all the "auto ON" emergency lighting units are in place, check

I picked up some "fun things to do" with the grand-kids materials, like the ingredients for making a variety of cookies, and cheese cake. Maybe we will start on their Pine Wood Derby cars.

At any rate, I am sitting here looking at six power banks, and knowing that I have only one light/lantern that can plug into one. I modified the lantern, by adding a USB cord to it. I am thinking that it would be a good thing to have more USB powered lights. Maybe I could alter a USB cord, in such a manner, so that it could connect to the terminal positive and negative poles in a four pack AA, AAA, C, or D battery box.


----------



## Grijon

Poppy, glad to hear that you're prepared! Thanks for sharing with us and I'm sure I'm not the only one wishing you the very best during this storm; you rock, sir!


----------



## more_vampires

Poppy said:


> I am thinking that it would be a good thing to have more USB powered lights. Maybe I could alter a USB cord, in such a manner, so that it could connect to the terminal positive and negative poles in a four pack AA, AAA, C, or D battery box.



There is a cheap laptop accessory, a usb plug with a bendable gooseneck cable terminating in a little LED (usually 3 or 5mm.) They're cheap, compact, and run off any hot USB spec port. I saw a guy make a table lamp out of a USB hub and these things.


----------



## Poppy

Thanks Grijon! 



more_vampires said:


> There is a cheap laptop accessory, a usb plug with a bendable gooseneck cable terminating in a little LED (usually 3 or 5mm.) They're cheap, compact, and run off any hot USB spec port. I saw a guy make a table lamp out of a USB hub and these things.



I have been meaning to order a five pack of these USB lights ever since buds224 posted about them.


----------



## thedoc007

Poppy said:


> I have been meaning to order a five pack of these USB lights ever since buds224 posted about them.



I did just that, and they are pretty neat. Would recommend them.


----------



## JerryM

I ran across this thread, and thought I would see what I have. I live in southern NM so it is not a big problem here. I have a lot of camping equipment and gas lanterns, but I remembered I had an emergency light for the road that used D cells, and had clear, red, and yellow lights. I looked at the batteries. They were 4 Energizers that expired in 2007. There was no leakage, and the voltage was 1.52 V.

Even though we have very few power outages, and they are very short, I decided to check out the WalMart lanterns and buy some more D cells just for fun.

Jerry


----------



## StarHalo

JerryM said:


> the voltage was 1.52 V.



That would be the straight multimeter reading; for the more accurate measure you need to load test - alkaline cells, especially ones that have sat unused for long periods of time, will show full voltage under no load, then die completely when a load is applied.

If you're going to store your batteries for that long, you should move to lithium primary cells, as they can manage decade-plus stretches of rest as part of their normal operation.


----------



## JerryM

StarHalo said:


> That would be the straight multimeter reading; for the more accurate measure you need to load test - alkaline cells, especially ones that have sat unused for long periods of time, will show full voltage under no load, then die completely when a load is applied.
> 
> If you're going to store your batteries for that long, you should move to lithium primary cells, as they can manage decade-plus stretches of rest as part of their normal operation.



I did not intend to store them, I just put the light away and forgot it. However, I would not pay the price for lithium batteries.
Thanks,
Jerry


----------



## Grijon

I think lithiums are worth the price for a true, emergency-only, intentionally-forget-about-it light.

I also think that Eneloops are so incredible that you can't go wrong with them on an annual checkup/charge strategy in lieu of lithium.

I read a user on here uses both; he keeps his emergency lights loaded with Eneloops, with a pack of lithium stored with the light. - and I think _that_'s the ultimate!


----------



## Poppy

Poppy said:


> Thanks Grijon!
> 
> 
> 
> I have been meaning to order a five pack of these USB lights ever since buds224 posted about them.





thedoc007 said:


> I did just that, and they are pretty neat. Would recommend them.


lol.... so doc, guess what Poppy has coming in the mail?

It'll be like adding five little power outage lights to my collection of loaners. Can't wait to get them, to try them out  Will I ever grow up?

Somewhere along the line my Convoy S2 disappeared, so I ordered a S2+ replacement, but this time with the 4C tint.


----------



## reppans

I think I'm really warming up to Poppy's love of the D-cell for home emergency use. 

This cell easily has 50% more energy than an 18650 at the "lantern" outputs I would typically be using it and it's easy enough to rig for use with my existing EDC AA flashlight collection - I could litter the house with them. No need to buy anything (but the batts) and I'd have better efficiency, nicer tints, more mode selection, and current regulation (hate PWM). Don't even care if the cell leaks as it will be out of body. They store for 10yr and are barely over $1 a piece online. All that said, I need more batts like a hole in the head.


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> lol.... so doc, guess what Poppy has coming in the mail?
> 
> It'll be like adding five little power outage lights to my collection of loaners. Can't wait to get them, to try them out  Will I ever grow up?
> 
> Somewhere along the line my Convoy S2 disappeared, so I ordered a S2+ replacement, but this time with the 4C tint.



I actually bought that whole setup and it works great!

Just a little FYI, the little USB lights have a light sensor (which is how they work as emergency/night lighting. They go off when there's ambient light, turn on when it's dark). This also means that it's possible to increase the runtime by placing anything reflective near the light. For example, I have one of these setups permanently plugged in to an outlet in the main bathroom. The outlet is located underneath a shelf over the toilet. The reflection of the light off the bottom of the white shelf is enough to dim it, which incidentally, works perfectly for night bathroom trips without blindingly bright light.

In a power outage, I'd leave the one in the bathroom, but could use the other ones with a white paper reflector for area/room lighting while the paper would also make the light dimmer and run longer.



Max


----------



## ForrestChump

Man this sucker is still going strong. One thing is for certain. CPF LOVES Power Outages / Disasters & the potential for Societal Collapse. 

That said, I've switched up my blackout mojo from my previous post: HDS 325 - 12 Pack of CR123 - *60 Continuos Days OF Bullet Proof Emergency Lighting.*


----------



## Grijon

With my current setup I have enough AA NiMH emergency power for nearly three weeks of lighting, assuming that my wife and I are each using a light on medium (50-120L per light).

If we take the same situation (5 hours per day per person) and use the lights on low (8-15L per light) then we have enough AA NiMH emergency power for over 23 weeks of light.

With that being said, the longest power outage I've personally experienced was 3 hours...


----------



## ForrestChump

:hahaha:



Grijon said:


> With that being said, the longest power outage I've personally experienced was 3 hours...


----------



## more_vampires

ForrestChump said:


> Man this sucker is still going strong. One thing is for certain. CPF LOVES Power Outages / Disasters & the potential for Societal Collapse.



Yep!



ForrestChump said:


> That said, I've switched up my blackout mojo from my previous post: HDS 325 - 12 Pack of CR123 - *60 Continuos Days OF Bullet Proof Emergency Lighting.*



 If it's really pitch black you can get away with much less light than if there is some ambient light pollution. Eyes are interesting things.

1. Program Armytek Predator to firefly mode for ~120 days continuous run time off of one 18650 lion.
2. 12 pack of 18650 lions.
3. ???
4. Profit!


----------



## ForrestChump

more_vampires said:


> Yep!
> 
> 
> 
> If it's really pitch black you can get away with much less light than if there is some ambient light pollution. Eyes are interesting things.
> 
> 1. Program Armytek Predator to firefly mode for ~120 days continuous run time off of one 18650 lion.
> 2. 12 pack of 18650 lions.
> 3. ???
> 4. Profit!



Yeah, I'v broken out of my USA comfort zone and am looking at the Viking 1010...... 300 meters of throw.

Im not worried about firefly, the HDS is very unlikely to give me any trouble in any condition.


----------



## JerryM

Grijon said:


> With my current setup I have enough AA NiMH emergency power for nearly three weeks of lighting, assuming that my wife and I are each using a light on medium (50-120L per light).
> 
> If we take the same situation (5 hours per day per person) and use the lights on low (8-15L per light) then we have enough AA NiMH emergency power for over 23 weeks of light.
> 
> With that being said, the longest power outage I've personally experienced was 3 hours...



If you are without power for 23 weeks you should watch some of the Alaska programs, and see how it is to live off the grid.
Hope you don't have to do that.
Jerry


----------



## Poppy

StarHalo said:


> That would be the straight multimeter reading; for the more accurate measure you need to load test - alkaline cells, especially ones that have sat unused for long periods of time, will show full voltage under no load, then die completely when a load is applied.
> .



StarHalo,
I recalled reading this in another thread.


UnknownVT said:


> <snip>
> ... try to measure the voltages under-load say about 1 Amp -
> use a 1 ohm 10 watt resistor between the terminals and then measure the voltage -
> this is the voltage under load at about ~1.2 Amps.


Method:
I used small magnets to hold a pair of jumper wires to each end of the battery. I then shorted the battery with the resistor, and took a voltage measurement. This was compared to the voltage without the resistor.

Here are some numbers:
A healthy NiMH AA duraloop fully charged measured 1.387 V, and under load dropped to 1.375 V
A lightly used AA alkaline 1.515 V dropped to 1.453 V under load
A fresh D alkaline measured 1.596V and under load dropped to 1.523V
An OLD Alkaline D cell Energizer -Use By 2008 - measured 1.574V and under load 1.473V.
A somewhat depleted D Carbon-Zinc 1.402 V dropped to 1.09 V under load!


----------



## more_vampires

Great post, Poppy. Post #492 is a book in one post.  Here's my book in one post. I hope you enjoy my partial biography.



Grijon said:


> With that being said, the longest power outage I've personally experienced was 3 hours...


Week and a half without power after Katrina for me, some areas much longer than that. People were driving an hour or more to find ice, gasoline, and chainsaws. *The irony, driving to find gasoline and reaching for a chainsaw in an emergency.* The stores were open in daylight, but wouldn't let you inside. Cash only, ATMs failed. It ran on long enough that many fell back to candles and oil lamps. People began getting up at dawn and settling down at dusk. No D cells, no AA cells, everyone begged for them. Kerosene, you name it... it was unavailable.

Food processing facilities failed. Food cold storage failed. Canned good supplies were vanishing. Store shelves were bare. Emergency supplies were inbound, but nobody knew where to go.

Water systems failed as the pumps couldn't run and they lost pressure. Even running those on generators was a boil water notice that *nobody could receive* and capacity couldn't keep up with drain.

Gas pumps were running off of gennies with prices at roughly 2x-3x, there was gouging. Some places were dipping directly from the tank with a can and a rope. 3 am Gasoline theft became rampant.

My group donated generators and chainsaws. We gave a generator and drained the gas from my relatives motorcycle to keep a generator running for an oxygen concentrator for a bed ridden woman nearby. It kept her alive, but it was a close call. I ran the extension cord myself.

I was a runner, a volunteer. Handing out lights and batteries, man. The first priority was clearing the roads to the linemen could do their job. This means telling the chainsaw men which roads were blocked, but I could get through the downed trees because of what I was driving... The phone systems and internet died, even where the lines weren't down. *ARRL* mobilized, activating emergency communication systems. Repeaters went live, digital radio to internet to email gateways went live. "...spot or a call to action."

I rocked a 12 volt 250 cc motorcycle and endured. Might as well charge while making an ice run. Lots of people I know only have 1 vehicle that gets 8-15 MPG due to work requirements. If I keep it under 50 mph, I get 80-90 MPG with no fairing, depending on conditions and stopping requirements. See also: *Vetter economy challenge.* *Craig Vetter is like the Vinh Nguyen of gas mileage.* If I'd tricked my 250 like Craig Vetter, I'd have been getting 120-175 mpg. It's something to consider for the next disaster. The bike is laid up right now, waiting for the next emergency. The battery failed, so a new one without the acid filled yet sits next to it. Carbs are clean, tank is empty. *Yes, I have an emergency escape vehicle.* To give you an idea, I can transport something the size of 8 full cases of beer, no sweat. It's a tiny bike. Cargo straps and net (I recommend "Rok Straps.") One time, I took off my belt to tie more junk to the bike. It was like a scene from the 3rd world and it only took us a week and a half to get there.

"*When all else fails...*" Amateur Radio Relay League is something I think CPF would also be interested in. When I think back on it, typing this brings a tear to my eye. We saw the best and worst of human nature. You don't need a "scary license" to help, besides they removed the Morse code requirements mostly. I helped most by knowing some loggers and sawmill folks. It was the critical need to restore power. I directly and personally saved someone's life in the aftermath of Katrina, and I did it for free.

The worst part was the beer was warm, really killed the ice quickly in my insulated backpack. Just between us, *I actually enjoyed it.*  The chainsaw crews appreciated it too. Deck of cards and a candle. :candle:

I felt like a hero, and this is coming from a former hazmat response guy.


----------



## more_vampires

Well guys, what do you think? In the next emergency, there is someone like me. Care to join us?


----------



## ForrestChump

more_vampires said:


> The worst part was the beer was warm, really killed the ice quickly in my insulated backpack.



This is heartbreaking. I held strong until the end and then just broke down in tears at this point.

Kidding aside, sounded like quiet the adventure, so much loss it's almost incomprehensible. If I am ever in a financial position to do Search & Rescue or anything related to Disaster Relief that would be a real honor to be apart of. I bet it would be unbelievably humbling.


----------



## Grijon

ForrestChump said:


> :hahaha:



LOL!


----------



## Grijon

more_vampires said:


> Week and a half without power after Katrina...



Incredible story, more_vampires, with incredible stuff; thank you for sharing.

I am truly intrigued by disaster response and such - I feel like that really matters, as opposed to the first world problems I 'deal' with every day working with the general public. I am truly grateful for such a peaceful, safe, convenient and luxurious life, I just get tired of Joe Shmoe taking it for granted. I do feel that I would genuinely enjoy doing the kind of work you describe.

Hats off to you, sir, for your fine work! Thanks again for sharing with us, that is awesome.


----------



## more_vampires

ForrestChump said:


> This is heartbreaking. I held strong until the end and then just broke down in tears at this point.



Yeah. Hurricane Katrina made our beer warm.  Ice from an hour and a half away to the rescue! It was like the old Roman days where they'd send a runner to go get snow from a mountain, then squirt berry juice on it.



ForrestChump said:


> If I am ever in a financial position to do Search & Rescue or anything related to Disaster Relief that would be a real honor to be apart of. I bet it would be unbelievably humbling.



I felt a change in mindset, a cognitive shift. Day to day, I'm pretty tame. When the balloon went up, I would have run into harm's way to protect someone I didn't know for $0. As far as the money, I probably spent less than $200 helping after Katrina as I already had stuff on hand and paid for. We got our chainsaws and generators back, eventually. The big deal was knowing this guy or that guy, knowing who to ask. Yes, I can get your message out to your aunt in Kentucky. I know the local hams. With basic prepping already out of the way, you can help others very easily. I have shelf stable dry goods and water treatment. I was not suffering or in need. Need a sealed #10 can of nitrogen purged rice? It's not that expensive, and I am glad to do it. Check out Augason Farms or Honeyville. You don't have to buy a lot at once, perhaps just a case of #10 cans once in a while. If the emergency doesn't happen, you can just eat the stuff. Some of it will keep for 25+ years under proper storage conditions.

We must already be prepared ourselves to help others. It's a mind set, a daily routine. If you decide to drop money and do it all at once, it will be quite expensive if you don't have any prepping experience. You'll get the wrong stuff or something you don't need.



Grijon said:


> Incredible story, more_vampires, with incredible stuff; thank you for sharing.


:thumbsup:



Grijon said:


> I am truly intrigued by disaster response and such - I feel like that really matters, as opposed to the first world problems I 'deal' with every day working with the general public.



ARRL volunteers really don't have a strict hierarchy. It isn't like the military or whatever. I took orders from nobody as an ARRL volunteer. A piece of paper doesn't transform you into Mr Search and Rescue. You must make your own decisions and it hinges upon what you know, who you know, and what you decide to try to do.

There isn't really even an instruction manual for this.

*ARRL: We are a herd of cats.*


----------



## reppans

Grijon said:


> Incredible story, more_vampires, with incredible stuff; thank you for sharing.
> 
> I am truly intrigued by disaster response and such - I feel like that really matters, as opposed to the first world problems I 'deal' with every day working with the general public. I am truly grateful for such a peaceful, safe, convenient and luxurious life, I just get tired of Joe Shmoe taking it for granted. I do feel that I would genuinely enjoy doing the kind of work you describe.
> 
> Hats off to you, sir, for your fine work! Thanks again for sharing with us, that is awesome.



Well said, +1 from me.... great work More_Vampires 



> No D cells, no AA cells, everyone begged for them.



Katrina was a long, long time ago. Now that you've become a flashlight expert, I assume your future services will become that much more important and useful. Hope some of those battery MacGyvering tips and tricks we've shared will come in handy for you and those that you assist .


----------



## more_vampires

reppans said:


> Katrina was a long, long time ago. Now that you've become a flashlight expert, I assume your future services will become that much more important and useful. Hope some of those battery MacGyvering tips and tricks we've shared will come in handy for you and those that you assist .



Yeah, my flashlight EDC at the time was an AAAx3 5mm showerhead light.  Looking back, knowing what I know now, I could have helped even more.

For anyone who doesn't know what Reppans is talking about, a CPF search is in order... battery hacks! I absolutely love that stuff! I can't read enough of it.

BRB: Time for a new thread about this!


----------



## KITROBASKIN

Emergency Essentials (beprepared dot com) is selling 15 watt Goal Zero glass face, aluminum frame solar panels about a third off. ($80) They can charge 12 volt batteries and also have 5 volt USB output. I cut off one plug of mine and made an adaptor to use 12 volt car receptacle and my home 12 volt DC interface.

Having previously grown up in the New Orleans area, pre-Katrina, I spoke with family who still had friends there. Some of the friends took their bass boats and cases of water to help those in need. The first day they were accosted by armed thugs. The friends chose to no longer help for fear of their safety. 


CandlePowerForums App


----------



## more_vampires

Best and worst of human nature.  I was fortunate to be northeast of NO when it really started cooking. At the time, I had no concern for my own safety, but the thought of what happened in NOLA is terrifying. I was there before it started.

I have family in that city.

My family NE of NOLA sheltered refugees in their own homes and drove people to Mississippi and Texas. Perhaps for every angel there's a demon.


----------



## Poppy

I'd like to offer this to anyone who wants to be a part of an "official" response to an emergency.

Many communities have a CERT Community Emergency Response Team, that operates under the direction of the OEM Office of Emergency Management. CERT may be organized by community or by County. 

My local CERT team had a dozen or so evening classes, some home-work reading, and a couple - half day training exercises. It was a "wooded area Search and Rescue" exercise that brought me to CPF. I found that my lights were totally inadequate.

As a member we get minimal training and practice using radio communication, and a number of the members are active HAM operators. A separate radio club has been established. We work hand in hand with OEM, and the local Police.


----------



## ForrestChump

KITROBASKIN said:


> Emergency Essentials (beprepared dot com) is selling 15 watt Goal Zero glass face, aluminum frame solar panels about a third off. ($80) They can charge 12 volt batteries and also have 5 volt USB output. I cut off one plug of mine and made an adaptor to use 12 volt car receptacle and my home 12 volt DC interface.
> 
> Having previously grown up in the New Orleans area, pre-Katrina, I spoke with family who still had friends there. Some of the friends took their bass boats and cases of water to help those in need. *The first day they were accosted by armed thugs. The friends chose to no longer help for fear of their safety. *
> 
> 
> CandlePowerForums App



*R A G E
*
I do not like this part.

It makes Forrest very upset.

Someone hand me a paddle.


 

:whoopin:


----------



## ForrestChump

Poppy said:


> I'd like to offer this to anyone who wants to be a part of an "official" response to an emergency.
> 
> Many communities have a CERT Community Emergency Response Team, that operates under the direction of the OEM Office of Emergency Management. CERT may be organized by community or by County.
> 
> My local CERT team had a dozen or so evening classes, some home-work reading, and a couple - half day training exercises. It was a "wooded area Search and Rescue" exercise that brought me to CPF. I found that my lights were totally inadequate.
> 
> As a member we get minimal training and practice using radio communication, and a number of the members are active HAM operators. A separate radio club has been established. We work hand in hand with OEM, and the local Police.




Interesting post. I have entertained this before but never presented myself the opportunity. I should really buckle down and check it out.


----------



## more_vampires

ForrestChump said:


> *R A G E* I do not like this part. It makes Forrest very upset.




...and this, my friend, is why some of us Angels get a CCW permit. People like me cannot be ordered off the job or told to leave. Herd of cats, man. Warm, fuzzy cats. The bad almost always hits the news. The good often goes unnoticed because the problem was solved and nobody got hurt.

I'm certainly not looking for a fight, but I will not stand by and watch something like that. I live in a "Good Samaritan Law" state.

Laws will not disarm criminals as they are already breaking the law anyway... thus criminals. The Founding Fathers knew that the only real solution for a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. It's deterrence. Those thugs thought they could get away with it or they were so desperate they felt there was no recourse. Desperation and lack of planning is no excuse to hurt and rob your fellow humans. Doing it because you like it is not excusable.

I'm not going to say it, but I know what I would have done in that situation.

Meow.


----------



## ForrestChump

more_vampires said:


> ...and this, my friend, is why some of us Angels get a CCW permit. People like me cannot be ordered off the job or told to leave. Herd of cats, man. Warm, fuzzy cats. The bad almost always hits the news. The good often goes unnoticed because the problem was solved and nobody got hurt.
> 
> I'm certainly not looking for a fight, but I will not stand by and watch something like that. I live in a "Good Samaritan Law" state.
> 
> Laws will not disarm criminals as they are already breaking the law anyway... thus criminals. The Founding Fathers knew that the only real solution for a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. It's deterrence. Those thugs thought they could get away with it or they were so desperate they felt there was no recourse. Desperation and lack of planning is no excuse to hurt and rob your fellow humans. Doing it because you like it is not excusable.
> 
> I'm not going to say it, but I know what I would have done in that situation.
> 
> Meow.



Im not touching that one.  

You and I seem to have this magic mojo to derail a thread without realizing it. Im making a concise effort to "think before I type" Im not perfect but Im getting a tiny bit better.

*Back on track......*

@ 17 pages we got a lot of info here, very cool. It's all been done before but it's always nice to refresh the question every few months, as light technology and preferences change.

HDS 325 - a dozen CR123 - a case of water - and 1 paddle for Forrest. 

All set! What more could possibly be added to this thread? Not a rhetorical question, still reading for good ideas.....


----------



## bluemax_1

KITROBASKIN said:


> Having previously grown up in the New Orleans area, pre-Katrina, I spoke with family who still had friends there. Some of the friends took their bass boats and cases of water to help those in need. The first day they were accosted by armed thugs. The friends chose to no longer help for fear of their safety.
> 
> 
> CandlePowerForums App



I had friends who took time off their jobs/school to go down and volunteer to help out the victims who came back extremely discouraged.

They were assigned to the Astrodome (?) stadium that had been converted with makeshift cots to house a huge number of the refugees who'd fled from the flooding.

They said that these folks refused to help out, leaving trash and litter everywhere and expecting all the volunteers to clean up their mess.

Instead of being appreciative of all the people and businesses offering help and goods for no compensation out of kindness and the goodness of their hearts, these folks just took things for granted and would complain about getting the same food 3 days in a row.

I don't know how some folks were raised, but the way I was brought up, after losing everything I had in a flood and being forced to flee my home, I would be greatful for any assistance provided, especially from folks who aren't obligated to do so but are simply trying to help.

We've seen the aftermath of communities hit by massive tornadoes where everyone pitches in to clear debris and help each other and themselves. How can people feel so entitled that they won't even bother to clean up after themselves and tell volunteers, "That's your job"?

Another observation in calamities around the world, is that although the goodness in some folks shines through, we also inevitably see the darkness. It appears to be human nature for folks to take things from others by force when they think their need is great.

I guess that's why some folks advocate stockpiling lots of ammunition alongside their other preparations.

I have enough lighting to not have to worry about that during an extended power outage, between having lots of lights and batteries as well as the ability to recharge them in numerous ways including solar.

Earlier in this thread folks discussed using minimal lighting to hide the fact that they have supplies stockpiled. I'd rather have enough lighting that anyone curious would wonder what ELSE I've got stockpiled to not be afraid of showing it.



Max


----------



## Poppy

Gentlemen:
We have been wandering off topic for the past week or two.

Please, let's pretty much stay on topic of power needs, either by way of battery, or generation, for a power outage lasting about a week. Maybe more.

Please refer to the original post, that lays out the scenario of a family of FOUR, NOT an individual who'll run sub-lumen for a week on ONE battery.

If you have enough batteries to run for 50,000 hours, no one cares except you.

Let's keep this informational, and try to keep our posts, "value added" posts.

Thanks.

Poppy :thumbsup:


----------



## ForrestChump

Poppy said:


> Gentlemen:
> We have been wandering off topic for the past week or two.
> 
> Please, let's pretty much stay on topic of power needs, either by way of battery, or generation, for a power outage lasting about a week. Maybe more.
> 
> Please refer to the original post, that lays out the scenario of a family of FOUR, NOT an individual who'll run sub-lumen for a week on ONE battery.
> 
> If you have enough batteries to run for 50,000 hours, no one cares except you.
> 
> Let's keep this informational, and try to keep our posts, "value added" posts.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Poppy :thumbsup:




+1


----------



## bluemax_1

Back to the original thread, one of the things I've personally found is that I like mules for indoor wide area lighting. Whether it's the Zebralight mule headlamp or something like the Thrunite Scorpion where the head/reflector assembly is easily removed to expose the bare emitter.

That's also one of the versatile attributes of the Siege and UST 30-day lanterns; you can remove the top leaving the emitters in the base free.

When hung from the ceiling (eg. from a ceiling fan in the living room) even at lower output levels, it provides a nice amount of light for things like playing board games etc.

And of course, you can put the top on for outdoor lighting if needed.


Max


----------



## scout24

My family and I were without power for a week in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy. I didn't really use nearly the amount of batteries I thought I would. Granted, I still store a ton of lithium primaries in AAA, AA, and 123 sizes, but we didn't really use many. Everyone had (and still does) an E01 running on Lithium AAA. There were a few ceiling bounced brighter lights in the early evening and when we gathered to eat. (Low-power Malkoff modules in MD2's, my 007...) Sleep patterns became everyone getting to bed earlier. I relied on my edc with rechargable 123's, as did my wife. Our biggest problem was keeping a comfortable reserve of gas for the EU2000i that ran nonstop. It kept our fridge and pellet stove going for the whole week. It also ran my Pila charger, cellphone chargers, and laptops.


----------



## ForrestChump

scout24 said:


> My family and I were without power for a week in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy. *I didn't really use nearly the amount of batteries I thought I would. *Granted, I still store a ton of lithium primaries in AAA, AA, and 123 sizes, but we didn't really use many. Everyone had (and still does) an E01 running on Lithium AAA. There were a few ceiling bounced brighter lights in the early evening and when we gathered to eat. (Low-power Malkoff modules in MD2's, my 007...) Sleep patterns became everyone getting to bed earlier. I relied on my edc with rechargable 123's, as did my wife. Our biggest problem was keeping a comfortable reserve of gas for the EU2000i that ran nonstop. It kept our fridge and pellet stove going for the whole week. It also ran my Pila charger, cellphone chargers, and laptops.



I think this is the most over looked detail for us flashaholics. We ARE NOT going to run out of juice, water maybe, but we will have light!


----------



## MidnightDistortions

Ready for the snowstorm here in IL tonight into Monday. Got plenty of supplies and got enough batteries to last several weeks in case of a power outage .


----------



## ForrestChump

MidnightDistortions said:


> Ready for the snowstorm here in IL tonight into Monday. Got plenty of supplies and got enough batteries to last several weeks in case of a power outage .



Well.......


Lets hear the full breakdown....


----------



## scout24

"An Emergency Water Epiphany" by member Sub Umbra is well worth the search here, and the time to read. He knows what he speaks.


----------



## sgt253

MidnightDistortions said:


> Ready for the snowstorm here in IL tonight into Monday. Got plenty of supplies and got enough batteries to last several weeks in case of a power outage .



You and me both...


----------



## ForrestChump

MidnightDistortions said:


> Ready for the snowstorm here in IL tonight into Monday. Got plenty of supplies and got enough batteries to last several weeks in case of a power outage .





sgt253 said:


> You and me both...




DETAILS! WE WANT DETAILS! Thats what this thread is about, how many people, how many cells!?


----------



## MidnightDistortions

ForrestChump said:


> DETAILS! WE WANT DETAILS! Thats what this thread is about, how many people, how many cells!?



lol just myself and my cat. I got 16 regular AA Eneloops, 4 Duracell 2400 (Duraloops), 4 Energizer 2300mAh, 4 GoalZero 2300mAh, 8 AAA Eneloop Pro, 7 older Energizers, and 4 AAA La Crosse cells. And the snowstorm turned into a blizzard, it's a whiteout outside my window.


----------



## more_vampires

Anyone keep vehicle batteries around for emergencies? I keep four, about 14ah each. 2 SLA, 2 lithium iron.


----------



## Poppy

maxaman1981 said:


> I'd just have Nightsearcher Trio on each (three) floor that does come on in the event of a power outage. A small adjustment upon activation and they will stay on for 14 hours at half power. I agree that there is not much use in lighting rooms that people arn't in so I light up each hallway with said lights to walk around house ...<snip>....





Poppy said:


> I have been meaning to order a five pack of these USB lights ever since buds224 posted about them.





bluemax_1 said:


> I actually bought that whole setup and it works great!
> <big snip>
> Max



I am such a proponent of "auto on" Emergency lighting, that I wanted to bring attention to buds224's solution/suggestion, for the late comers to the thread who may not have read the thread all the way through. If you don't have auto on emergency lights, when a power failure hits, you might be instantly, in cave like darkness. Just a few units giving off just five or ten lumens each strategically placed can make your home safe so that you can get to your lighting supplies without tripping, or the kids panicking.


----------



## Tachead

Poppy said:


> I am such a proponent of "auto on" Emergency lighting, that I wanted to bring attention to buds224's solution/suggestion, for the late comers to the thread who may not have read the thread all the way through. If you don't have auto on emergency lights, when a power failure hits, you might be instantly, in cave like darkness. Just a few units giving off just five or ten lumens each strategically placed can make your home safe so that you can get to your lighting supplies without tripping, or the kids panicking.



The EDC light that never leaves my pocket(even in the PJ's on the couch) should cover this nicely. Auto on emergency lights are overkill for me personally and I dont need the extra expense of the batteries in them myself(maybe if the power went out very frequently). Its just darkness guys, its not like you will shrivel up and die if you dont get a light on instantly. Your eyes will just adapt in a couple of minutes and you will be fine seeing your way to the desk drawer.


----------



## jorn

Always have some candles. If the power goes under a blizzard, the house gets cold if you only use flashlights


----------



## Poppy

Tachead said:


> The EDC light that never leaves my pocket(even in the PJ's on the couch) should cover this nicely. Auto on emergency lights are overkill for me personally and I dont need the extra expense of the batteries in them myself(maybe if the power went out very frequently). Its just darkness guys, its not like you will shrivel up and die if you dont get a light on instantly. Your eyes will just adapt in a couple of minutes and you will be fine seeing your way to the desk drawer.



Tachead, with all due respect, your response suggests that you are a young man in your prime, and that you are thinking of YOUR situation, not that of the original scenario presented in the original post. Suggestions for a "Family of FOUR, with TWO young children"

It also suggests that you have never experienced "cave like darkness". In a cave, when the lights are out, you can not see your hand in front of your face. 

A couple of nights ago, I looked out into the back yard, and thought that I had left the rear porch light on. The moon was so bright, that it cast a shadow of my house onto the snow. 

Often a power outage is caused by bad weather that blocks out the moon and stars. If the outage is wide spread, there is no light pollution adding ambient light. When even the little LED clocks go out, you might experience "cave like darkness". 

When thrown into sudden "cave like darkness" children may become frightened.

Perhaps the greatest health hazard to seniors is having a fall. 

Both situations can be avoided with a simple auto-on emergency light. They don't have to be fancy, I have a number of less than $10 plug in the outlet lights around the house.


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight

Poppy said:


> It also suggests that you have never experienced "cave like darkness". In a cave, when the lights are out, you can not see your hand in front of your face.



Meh. I have certainly experienced "cave like darkness", and you can't see anything. But if you're inside your own house, you should be able to feel your way to a drawer where you keep a light. It's only a couple of minutes. You don't have to suddenly get up and run around like a chicken with its head cut off.

Just keep a few lights in well-known places. Everyone will get through a couple of minutes of darkness without dying.


----------



## chazz

EDIT
Deleted: Was just joking, but thought better of it. Sorry... Carry on...


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight

chazz said:


> Maybe not if you misjudge where the stairs are... :duck:



Good way to weed out the stupid genes in your family.


----------



## scout24

"A" for effort, Poppy. Just clicked the link, those are pretty cool.


----------



## chazz

Poppy said:


> Perhaps the greatest health hazard to seniors is having a fall. Both situations can be avoided with a simple auto-on emergency light. They don't have to be fancy, I have a number of less than $10 plug in the outlet lights around the house.



Agreed, I got a couple of those for my 70+ yo mothers house, also got her a 47s Quark Pro 2xAA that she now keeps beside her bed. (she likes the moonlight mode for if she wakes up and needs to walk around at night)


----------



## Tachead

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Meh. I have certainly experienced "cave like darkness", and you can't see anything. But if you're inside your own house, you should be able to feel your way to a drawer where you keep a light. It's only a couple of minutes. You don't have to suddenly get up and run around like a chicken with its head cut off.
> 
> Just keep a few lights in well-known places. Everyone will get through a couple of minutes of darkness without dying.



+1 and an EDC in your pocket can eliminate even having to find a light at all.

As for "cave like darkness" been there done that many times. Even been 1 hour deep into the worlds second biggest cave system in Mexico as well as a bunch of cenotes. Your right, its dark but, the chances of your house ever getting to that level in a split second are very slim. 

You are right though in some circumstances, like with really young children or the elderly in the house, auto on lights could be beneficial. Our house is void of both of those though so I prefer the stashed lights around the house/EDC option myself.


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> I am such a proponent of "auto on" Emergency lighting, that I wanted to bring attention to buds224's solution/suggestion, for the late comers to the thread who may not have read the thread all the way through. If you don't have auto on emergency lights, when a power failure hits, you might be instantly, in cave like darkness. Just a few units giving off just five or ten lumens each strategically placed can make your home safe so that you can get to your lighting supplies without tripping, or the kids panicking.



Yep, auto-on lights (just as they are in commercial buildings) are a safety measure.

I can't recall if it was in this thread, but I remember reading a post about someone learning to sleep with a tiny flashlight on a chain around their neck because they woke up in a blackout during an earthquake and the flashlight they kept on the bedside table was nowhere to be found.

A simple power outage with only one younger person who only has to care for themselves is a different scenario.

When there are younger children or the elderly involved, safety measures are a greater necessity.

I've also learned to keep a flashlight in my pocket at all times in the house (and of course, several when I leave the house LOL), after stubbing my toe in the dark on something on the floor I wasn't expecting to be there when the power was knocked out.

Even though I had flashlights stashed all over the house and knew exactly where the closest one was, I stubbed my toe in the 6 steps it took to reach it.

There could be many reasons for a power outage and you and your family may need to move quickly. Having auto-on emergency lighting can help ensure that they can do so safely, to get what they need to get and/or get where they need to go.



Max


----------



## ForrestChump

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Meh. I have certainly experienced "cave like darkness", and you can't see anything. But if you're inside your own house, you should be able to feel your way to a drawer where you keep a light. It's only a couple of minutes. You don't have to suddenly get up and run around like a chicken with its head cut off.
> 
> Just keep a few lights in well-known places. Everyone will get through a couple of minutes of darkness without dying.




You would be surprised how much pitch black changes as you get older. I am not "older" by most standards, but lets just say when I was younger I gave my cognitive health a beat down and then some, and am now paying the price. I feel about 60 and have stumbled down the stairs WITH a light more times than I can count. Add young kids in the mix and Im with Poppy on this one. The spirit of the thread is 4 people 2 kids. 

So to answer the original question of 4 with 2 younger. I'd go with 1 headlamp each kid 3 Lithium AAA, and a stack of 21 Primaries. For the older folk 1 tailstanding CR123 - 1 cell - 300LM handheld each and also a stack of 24 primaries.

Depending on your light (HDS) and headlamps running 3 AAA @ 100+ Hrs I'd say that would cover everything short of a complete power grid collapse.

4 People - 4 Lights - 50 Lithium Primaries - for Forrest.


----------



## Poppy

bluemax_1 said:


> I've also learned to keep a flashlight in my pocket at all times in the house (and of course, several when I leave the house LOL), after stubbing my toe in the dark on something on the floor I wasn't expecting to be there when the power was knocked out.
> 
> Even though *I had flashlights stashed all over the house and knew exactly where the closest one was, I stubbed my toe in the 6 steps it took to reach it.*
> 
> There could be many reasons for a power outage and you and your family may need to move quickly. Having auto-on emergency lighting can help ensure that they can do so safely, to get what they need to get and/or get where they need to go.
> 
> Max


Ouch!!! 

EscapeVelocity started a thread that compared some of the Plug into an Outlet Power Failure lights.
Some of the things to look for are:
If they can function as a night light (go off in the day light) 
do they have replaceable batteries
some have two sets of emitters, that can be selected... to shine up or down, OR straight out the front.
Do they cover BOTH outlets of the receptacle?

I'd like to make one additional comment. I wanted one on top of the entertainment unit in the living room, so I used an extension cord. The point being... it doesn't have to be plugged directly into an outlet.



ForrestChump said:


> You would be surprised how much *pitch black changes as you get older*. <SNIP>
> 
> 
> So to answer the original question of 4 with 2 younger. *I'd go with 1 headlamp each kid 3 Lithium AAA, and a stack of 21 Primaries*. For the older folk 1 tailstanding CR123 - 1 cell - 300LM handheld each and also a stack of 24 primaries.
> 
> Depending on your light (HDS) and headlamps running 3 AAA @ 100+ Hrs I'd say that would cover everything short of a complete power grid collapse.
> 
> 4 People - 4 Lights - 50 Lithium Primaries - for Forrest.



I think that ForestChump makes a good point in recommending headlamps for the kids. I don't think that it has been mentioned in this thread that a headlamp CAN be used as a flashlight, or a lantern. It doesn't HAVE to be worn on the head.

Oh... and regarding getting older and night vision going South.  I can vouch for that!


----------



## thinkFlashlights01

Poppy said:


> We are supposed to get 24-30 inches of snow, with wind gusts up to 60 mph in the next 24 hours. This got me doing a little preparation.
> 
> Gas in all the cars, check
> Extra gas for the generator, check
> top off back up batteries, check
> top off laptops, cell phones, tablets, and other toys, check
> Food run... extra snacks... bottled water... etc
> Pharmacy run needed? Are we good for a week?
> Called my Dad, who is in the same storm path, to tell him, to charge his phone, and be sure that he knows where his charger is; that he can plug into his car.
> Made sure that all the "auto ON" emergency lighting units are in place, check
> 
> I picked up some "fun things to do" with the grand-kids materials, like the ingredients for making a variety of cookies, and cheese cake. Maybe we will start on their Pine Wood Derby cars.
> 
> At any rate, I am sitting here looking at six power banks, and knowing that I have only one light/lantern that can plug into one. I modified the lantern, by adding a USB cord to it. I am thinking that it would be a good thing to have more USB powered lights. Maybe I could alter a USB cord, in such a manner, so that it could connect to the terminal positive and negative poles in a four pack AA, AAA, C, or D battery box.


 That 60 mph wind sounds like a mini hurricane! :sick2:


----------



## bluemax_1

Thanks for the link to the power failure lights thread Poppy. Interesting read. One of the things I really like about the charger + USB light already linked to is that I can also use it to charge USB items in a pinch (eg. Cellphones) and it means I have spare 18650s around if I need them for the 18650 lights.


Max

P.S. and the setup will run longer than 60 minutes


----------



## braddy

Tachead said:


> The EDC light that never leaves my pocket(even in the PJ's on the couch) should cover this nicely. Auto on emergency lights are overkill for me personally and I dont need the extra expense of the batteries in them myself(maybe if the power went out very frequently). Its just darkness guys, its not like you will shrivel up and die if you dont get a light on instantly. Your eyes will just adapt in a couple of minutes and you will be fine seeing your way to the desk drawer.


True, in your own home you should be able to put on a blind fold and find your way around well enough to reach a flashlight or cell phone light.


----------



## Poppy

buds224 said:


> Then there are these Universal chargers I purchased in the past. They are capable of AC charging to power the USB port and also charge various batteries. They can even use batteries to power the USB port, which is the key to making it work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now when the lights go out, the USB LEDs take over, whether there is power to the AC or not since the 18650 will take over if there is a power outage. The light activates instantaneously without any lag/delay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is my lighting solution during a power outage at 80lumens, warm, and floody enough to light the entire room.





bluemax_1 said:


> Thanks for the link to the power failure lights thread Poppy. Interesting read. One of the things I really like about the charger + USB light already linked to is that I can also use it to charge USB items in a pinch (eg. Cellphones) and it means I have spare 18650s around if I need them for the 18650 lights.
> 
> 
> Max
> 
> P.S. and the setup will run longer than 60 minutes



One thing that I find appealing to "universal" chargers, is they typically have moveable pins and some type of holder so that: phones, cameras, or other LiIon powered items with removable batteries can be charged. If they otherwise require a unique charger because of a non-standard charge port, and the battery is removable, a charger like this might work. 

I like the fact that it adds flexibility. 

It's a long story, but I actually used LEGO pieces, springs from pens, rivets, and jumper wires to my Xtar charger to charge some dumb phone batteries. The McGyver-ing actually worked pretty well, but LOL... this would be much easier.


----------



## MidnightDistortions

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Meh. I have certainly experienced "cave like darkness", and you can't see anything. But if you're inside your own house, you should be able to feel your way to a drawer where you keep a light. It's only a couple of minutes. You don't have to suddenly get up and run around like a chicken with its head cut off.
> 
> Just keep a few lights in well-known places. Everyone will get through a couple of minutes of darkness without dying.




Also if you have low lighting, your eyesight will be better to adjust to the dark quicker than with full brightness.


----------



## dss_777

In the 1994 Northridge earthquake, the power was knocked out at 4:30 am in large areas of the city. Waking rather abruptly to a total blackout, we had to navigate through all the stuff thrown onto the floor. Everything that WAS in the cabinets, on the shelves, or attached to the walls (in some cases) is now on the floor.

There was a lot of broken glass in certain areas, bookcases knocked over, doors blocked or jammed shut... even if you knew where everything was BEFORE things started rocking and rolling, it was now new terrain.

Maybe it goes without saying, but not all blackout scenarios are going to be benign. In a situation like above, you really need a light immediately at hand if you want to be able to quickly assess the situation, get to the kids, move around safely, or get out ASAP (think gas leak, fire, or collapsing buildings).


----------



## blah9

You guys have really opened my eyes to this type of thing. I am not in an earthquake-prone area, but I may begin to clip a small light to my shorts pocket while I sleep just to make sure I can always get to it even if a severe disaster occurs. Leaving things on my nightstand might not be good enough. I'm sure I wouldn't mind doing so, and it could be very useful one day.


----------



## bluemax_1

blah9 said:


> You guys have really opened my eyes to this type of thing. I am not in an earthquake-prone area, but I may begin to clip a small light to my shorts pocket while I sleep just to make sure I can always get to it even if a severe disaster occurs. Leaving things on my nightstand might not be good enough. I'm sure I wouldn't mind doing so, and it could be very useful one day.



Hence why I mentioned the poster sleeping with a tiny flashlight on a loop around their neck. Anyone who wears anything around their neck (I know some folks can't get used to having anything at all around their necks) could probably clip on something like a Photon or Nano/Pico light without being bothered by it.

If there are other folks living with you though, the emergency auto-on lighting in key areas can be extremely helpful (in an earthquake zone with the setup pictured in Poppy's post above, I'd tape/secure the battery and USB light in place so they can't separate from falling or being shaken in an earthquake).



Max


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> One thing that I find appealing to "universal" chargers, is they typically have moveable pins and some type of holder so that: phones, cameras, or other LiIon powered items with removable batteries can be charged. If they otherwise require a unique charger because of a non-standard charge port, and the battery is removable, a charger like this might work.
> 
> I like the fact that it adds flexibility.
> 
> It's a long story, but I actually used LEGO pieces, springs from pens, rivets, and jumper wires to my Xtar charger to charge some dumb phone batteries. The McGyver-ing actually worked pretty well, but LOL... this would be much easier.



Lol, MacGyverisms. Folks who can MacGyver solutions have much greater ability to adapt to circumstances than the ones whose minds don't work that way. It was definitely one of my all time favorite shows in the 80's (so much so that I bought not one but TWO DVD sets of the entire series because the first set was so poorly packaged).

I do enjoy seeing some of the homemade solutions people come up with like a rubber band and bent white business card to create a diffuser/reflector for a tailstanding flashlight.


Max


----------



## Poppy

bluemax_1 said:


> Lol, MacGyverisms. Folks who can MacGyver solutions have much greater ability to adapt to circumstances than the ones whose minds don't work that way. It was definitely one of my all time favorite shows in the 80's (so much so that I bought not one but TWO DVD sets of the entire series because the first set was so poorly packaged).
> 
> *I do enjoy seeing some of the homemade solutions people come up with like a rubber band and bent white business card to create a diffuser/reflector for a tailstanding flashlight.
> *
> 
> Max


I soldered a USB cable into the battery box of my two Energizer lanterns. They take 4 AA batteries, IE up to 6 volts. They run fine on the 5V output of battery banks.

The KING of McGyvering flashlights is our friend reppans.
With some tinfoil, a dollar bill, and a paperclip, he can run an AA light on a C or D cell.
The MASTER, he is :bow: :twothumbs:


----------



## more_vampires

bluemax_1 said:


> I've also learned to keep a flashlight in my pocket at all times in the house (and of course, several when I leave the house LOL), after stubbing my toe in the dark on something on the floor I wasn't expecting to be there when the power was knocked out.



I did the same thing, woke up in the middle of the pitch black night with a dire need... except when I stubbed my toe on the door frame, my instinct was to bend forwards yelling "OWWW!!!"

The result is not only did I break off a toenail, but split open my forehead by headbutting the door frame in a pitch black room. This happened about 10 feet from my shelf of junk/budget lights. 6 feet from my edc pile. *3 feet from the light switch.* Didn't matter if the power was out or not if you don't turn the switch on.

Fortunately, I managed to limp to the bathroom and contain myself until that time. It was bad, but could have been worse. Slightly.

Something to be said for nightime EDC. I bled over this once.



Poppy said:


> I soldered a USB cable into the battery box of my two Energizer lanterns. They take 4 AA batteries, IE up to 6 volts. They run fine on the 5V output of battery banks.
> 
> The KING of McGyvering flashlights is our friend reppans.
> With some tinfoil, a dollar bill, and a paperclip, he can run an AA light on a C or D cell.
> The MASTER, he is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :



Poppy and Reppans are my role models.


----------



## broadgage

For a long term power failure at home I have found a home made light to be most useful for a bright, long running light at low battery cost.

You will need a battery holder for 6 D cells, some twin lamp cord, an in line switch as used on a desk lamp, a miniature screw base (E10) lamp holder and a good quality multi voltage LED flashlight bulb.
Connect a couple of feet of wire between the battery holder and the switch, and then perhaps six or ten feet of wire from the switch to the bulb holder making certain that the positive wire goes to the centre contact of the bulb.

The claimed light output is 100 lumens or more and unlike a heavy lantern, the very lightweight bulb may be hung safely from an existing fixture.
The battery pack and switch may be placed wherever is convenient for ready operation unlike the switch built into a lantern.
The multi voltage bulb will give full light down to a very low voltage thereby fully utilising the energy in the D cells.
With good alkaline D cells the full brightness run time should be about 100 hours, or at least 2 weeks of evening use. When the cells are effectively spent, the bulb will remain lit at a much reduced output for many hours, no sudden darkness.
If the cells leak as they may when so deeply discharged, only a cheap battery holder is at risk, not an expensive lantern.

Flashlights will still be needed of course, but a light as described will light a main room very effectively at low running cost for many hours.


----------



## dc38

Maglite 4ever mod running lithium l92


----------



## MidnightDistortions

more_vampires said:


> I did the same thing, woke up in the middle of the pitch black night with a dire need... except when I stubbed my toe on the door frame, my instinct was to bend forwards yelling "OWWW!!!"
> 
> The result is not only did I break off a toenail, but split open my forehead by headbutting the door frame in a pitch black room. This happened about 10 feet from my shelf of junk/budget lights. 6 feet from my edc pile. *3 feet from the light switch.* Didn't matter if the power was out or not if you don't turn the switch on.
> 
> Fortunately, I managed to limp to the bathroom and contain myself until that time. It was bad, but could have been worse. Slightly.
> 
> Something to be said for nightime EDC. I bled over this once.




One time i woke up with the need to use the bathroom and in darkness i ran my knee into a computer tower i had left in the hallway (bad place for it) and i was doing this for about 5 minutes.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buHv1EvUHj0

Thankfully now i carry around a flashlight at night so instead of bumping into things hurting myself i now use a nighttime EDC.


----------



## Poppy

dc38 said:


> Maglite 4ever mod running lithium l92


What is a maglite 4ever mod?

EDIT:
thanks 5S8Zh5 
I googled 4ever, not forever, that's why my search failed.


----------



## 5S8Zh5

lmgtfy .....


----------



## Poppy

Thanks guys, for making my case for auto-ON emergency lighting... honestly I found myself laughing at your calamities, (sorry).

Not living in an earthquake zone, I hadn't considered the possibility of the room being totally disheveled nor broken glass on the floor. Pretty scary stuff.

I modified a couple of those stair-way emergency lights to turn on more efficient lighting than the incan bulbs they were designed for. One turns on a little 4 inch 6 volt florescent bulb, the other, one of those 24 LED satellite tent lanterns. They'll now give about 40 hours of 30 lumens of light vs the 90 minutes originally, and they now have an OFF switch (so the batteries can be spared during daylight hours). They have 4.5 AH 6 volt SLAs. Others now come with LED bulbs, but run on NiMH low capacity batteries and still only run for about 90 minutes.


----------



## kaichu dento

dss_777 said:


> In the 1994 Northridge earthquake, the power was knocked out at 4:30 am in large areas of the city. Waking rather abruptly to a total blackout, we had to navigate through all the stuff thrown onto the floor. Everything that WAS in the cabinets, on the shelves, or attached to the walls (in some cases) is now on the floor.
> 
> There was a lot of broken glass in certain areas, bookcases knocked over, doors blocked or jammed shut... even if you knew where everything was BEFORE things started rocking and rolling, it was now new terrain.
> 
> Maybe it goes without saying, but not all blackout scenarios are going to be benign. In a situation like above, you really need a light immediately at hand if you want to be able to quickly assess the situation, get to the kids, move around safely, or get out ASAP (think gas leak, fire, or collapsing buildings).


I've been wearing a light on a neck lanyard for several years now and though I seldom use it there have been a handful of times that made me very glad to have the always-there light.



bluemax_1 said:


> Hence why I mentioned the poster sleeping with a tiny flashlight on a loop around their neck. Anyone who wears anything around their neck (I know some folks can't get used to having anything at all around their necks) could probably clip on something like a Photon or Nano/Pico light without being bothered by it.
> 
> If there are other folks living with you though, the emergency auto-on lighting in key areas can be extremely helpful (in an earthquake zone with the setup pictured in Poppy's post above, I'd tape/secure the battery and USB light in place so they can't separate from falling or being shaken in an earthquake).


+1


----------



## MidnightDistortions

Emergency lighting is useful if done correctly, but i don't think it should be an excuse not to carry a light with you wherever you go. EDC'ing a light will be able to help you navigate through any dark areas. Heck, the other day i pulled mine out because the walk in freezer at my store is really dim and can't really see much of anything without a flashlight.


----------



## jorn

The power went out today. The only thing i saw was some glowing trits on the table. My keychain light the tain preon p0 to the rescue, did not need any more light than the 20-30 ish lumens.


----------



## bluemax_1

Thanks for bringing that 8 AA Energizer lantern to my attention. I finally got around to ordering one and here are my initial impressions:

- It wasn't as large as I thought it would be (a good thing)
- It's only a fraction of an inch longer/taller than the height of a Siege or UST 30-day lantern, but being flatter, it's easier to stuff in a pack (though as yet, I don't know how tough/resistant to cracking or breakage it is)
- It's a little lighter with 8 Eneloops than the Siege or UST with 3 D-cells.

The BIGGEST advantage of the Energizer lantern though, is that it creates SIGNIFICANTLY less glare than the other lanterns (as long as you don't position it so the bottom edge of the acrylic diffuser is aiming at your eyes).

With either of the D-cell lanterns positioned next to the sink or on a kitchen counter, the lantern itself is a bright light source that you need to avoid looking at to limit its effect on the irises.

With the Energizer lantern, the diffuser works so well that it lights up the kitchen equally well, but looking at the lantern itself, it doesn't appear as bright/glaring as the smaller concentrated light source of the D-cell lanterns.

The flip up diffuser also allows 'aiming' the light to throw more light on a specific area.

One thing I noted was that the Energizer lantern produces a textured wall of light (no doubt due to the acrylic diffuser), but I only really noticed this on the white walls as the light is being moved. When it's stationary, I don't really notice it, but the Siege and UST lanterns don't really exhibit these 'textured' artifacts as much.

The Siege lantern does of course, have the advantage of being waterproof and submersible to 1 meter (and it will float in water in its complete form). It also has the red LED (although the usefulness of that will depend on the individual).

All in all though, if anyone is thinking about getting a lantern for emergency/area lighting especially indoors (or anywhere submersion is not a factor. Energizer claims the lantern is water resistant and will function fine in the rain), I would definitely recommend considering the Energizer lantern.

If you have other AA lights, the Energizer lantern's ability to run on either 4 or 8 AAs makes it an even more attractive option as you could use the spare AAs wherever they're most needed.


Max


----------



## more_vampires

EDIT: I have the flip-up Dx4 Energizer "Weather Ready LED" folding lantern. Flat for what it is, multi-mode, but my favorite feature is odd (because I'm odd.)
http://www.energizer.com/flashlights-lighting/weatheready-led-folding-lantern

The yellow "locator beacon" is a useful (to me) firefly/moonlight with 100% night-adapted vision. Strangely, I've used this locator for light more than any other mode it has. The result is I'm still on the original set of batteries. They're still 90+%-ish after probably a year of playing with it.

It's rapidly becoming one of my favorite lanterns as it's the only lantern I've got with a firefly mode that I like. Wonderful diffuser, low glare in any mode.

I rarely turn on the white flood modes.

Edit: Sorry, forgot to say what it was! Maker says it can run on 2 or 4 D batts, but I've never used up the first set!


----------



## Poppy

bluemax_1 said:


> Thanks for bringing that 8 AA Energizer lantern to my attention. I finally got around to ordering one and here are my initial impressions:
> 
> - It wasn't as large as I thought it would be (a good thing)
> - It's only a fraction of an inch longer/taller than the height of a Siege or UST 30-day lantern, but being flatter, it's easier to stuff in a pack (though as yet, I don't know how tough/resistant to cracking or breakage it is)
> - It's a little lighter with 8 Eneloops than the Siege or UST with 3 D-cells.
> 
> The BIGGEST advantage of the Energizer lantern though, is that it creates SIGNIFICANTLY less glare than the other lanterns (as long as you don't position it so the bottom edge of the acrylic diffuser is aiming at your eyes).
> 
> With either of the D-cell lanterns positioned next to the sink or on a kitchen counter, the lantern itself is a bright light source that you need to avoid looking at to limit its effect on the irises.
> 
> With the Energizer lantern, the diffuser works so well that it lights up the kitchen equally well, but looking at the lantern itself, it doesn't appear as bright/glaring as the smaller concentrated light source of the D-cell lanterns.
> 
> The flip up diffuser also allows 'aiming' the light to throw more light on a specific area.
> 
> One thing I noted was that the Energizer lantern produces a textured wall of light (no doubt due to the acrylic diffuser), but I only really noticed this on the white walls as the light is being moved. When it's stationary, I don't really notice it, but the Siege and UST lanterns don't really exhibit these 'textured' artifacts as much.
> 
> The Siege lantern does of course, have the advantage of being waterproof and submersible to 1 meter (and it will float in water in its complete form). It also has the red LED (although the usefulness of that will depend on the individual).
> 
> All in all though, if anyone is thinking about getting a lantern for emergency/area lighting especially indoors (or anywhere submersion is not a factor. Energizer claims the lantern is water resistant and will function fine in the rain), I would definitely recommend considering the Energizer lantern.
> 
> If you have other AA lights, the Energizer lantern's ability to run on either 4 or 8 AAs makes it an even more attractive option as you could use the spare AAs wherever they're most needed.
> 
> 
> Max


blueMax_1,
Thanks again for a terrific post!

Regarding that Energizer "300 Lumen folding lantern with light fusion technology", it does have a "lifetime" warranty, but I question how well it might handle a fall if the diffuser was open at the time. Otherwise, I think it appears to be fairly durable.

One consideration about relying on AA batteries for a power outage, is their somewhat limited capacity, and whether or not a person has enough charging slots to recharge all that are used each day. For example, my nitecore intellicharger i4 takes 6 hours to charge 4 eneloops, that would be 12 hours, to recharge the 8 eneloops that could possibly be used up each day if this lantern was set on HIGH (300 lumens) for 8 hours or so. 

I have two four slot chargers, and a two slot charger, that can be plugged into my car (or neighbor's car) considering that I may be loaning batteries, and lights out to others.


----------



## more_vampires

Poppy said:


> Regarding that Energizer "300 Lumen folding lantern with light fusion technology", it does have a "lifetime" warranty, but I question how well it might handle a fall if the diffuser was open at the time. Otherwise, I think it appears to be fairly durable.



I quit using an old Energizer AAx4 flip-up lantern because I loaned it to my wife, who used it for bed reading until the flip-up wouldn't stay flipped up any more. The switch started getting flaky. I didn't know at the time that they had a "lifetime warranty" and it was retired for other options. Man, that thing kept going and going! Checking the Energizer site, they don't offer that model anymore. Too bad, it was pretty good.

What with their aversion to model numbers on their website now? It makes it hard to talk about them. Will the new model be called "Energizer lantern that makes light?" Right.


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> blueMax_1,
> Thanks again for a terrific post!
> 
> Regarding that Energizer "300 Lumen folding lantern with light fusion technology", it does have a "lifetime" warranty, but I question how well it might handle a fall if the diffuser was open at the time. Otherwise, I think it appears to be fairly durable.
> 
> One consideration about relying on AA batteries for a power outage, is their somewhat limited capacity, and whether or not a person has enough charging slots to recharge all that are used each day. For example, my nitecore intellicharger i4 takes 6 hours to charge 4 eneloops, that would be 12 hours, to recharge the 8 eneloops that could possibly be used up each day if this lantern was set on HIGH (300 lumens) for 8 hours or so.
> 
> I have two four slot chargers, and a two slot charger, that can be plugged into my car (or neighbor's car) considering that I may be loaning batteries, and lights out to others.



Good point. That's one of the benefits of a selectable charge current charger like the Maha C-9000 (I think that's the model). I can set it to charge at 2000 mA and since it charges each cell individually, it can charge 4 AA's much faster than the i4.

Under those conditions, I'll take the slight hit in overall battery life vs the quicker charge times.

It's also why I have the Xtar single-bay charger (SP1 or SP2?). Where the i4 and many chargers can only charge at ~500 - 750 mA, the Xtar can be set to a 2A charge current. Useful for fast charging the single 18650 lights I have, AND it has the USB port allowing me to use an 18650 to charge a cellphone or other USB powered device. It's basically an amped up version of the other white colored single Li-Ion charger available through Fasttech.

I figured that charging a 3800mAh 18650 with a 500mA current would take far longer than I'd prefer in anything other than leisure situations.


Max


----------



## more_vampires

Ummm... speaking of chargers, my favorite lion charger is about 50 ma and works without breaking spec of any USB...

...just saying. I like battery life and tend to keep a batch of NiMH for over a decade unless I give them away. I have yet to discard a lithium ion because I treat my cells like supermodels: Gently, darling. It's the best way.

"Patience? Yeah, yeah, yeah, how long is that going to take?"
Ed Gruberman, The Frantics, _Boot to the Head_, 1987.


----------



## Poppy

bluemax_1 said:


> Good point. That's one of the benefits of a selectable charge current charger like the Maha C-9000 (I think that's the model). I can set it to charge at 2000 mA and since it charges each cell individually, it can charge 4 AA's much faster than the i4.
> 
> Under those conditions, I'll take the slight hit in overall battery life vs the quicker charge times.
> 
> It's also why I have the Xtar single-bay charger (SP1 or SP2?). Where the i4 and many chargers can only charge at ~500 - 750 mA, the Xtar can be set to a 2A charge current. Useful for fast charging the single 18650 lights I have, AND it has the USB port allowing me to use an 18650 to charge a cellphone or other USB powered device. It's basically an amped up version of the other white colored single Li-Ion charger available through Fasttech.
> 
> I figured that charging a 3800mAh 18650 with a 500mA current would take far longer than I'd prefer in anything other than leisure situations.
> 
> Max


I'm not all that informed about different chargers, it is nice to know that some can be set to higher charge rates. 

It's true, MOST of our charging situations, are leisure situations, I thought that it was important to drive home the fact that in an outage situation, (especially if you are helping others) the we may not have the charging capacity to keep all our cells fresh. 

My Xtar WP6-2 can do 6 - 18650 cells at a time, and will be finished in about 7 hours, but considering that each cell has about 3-4 times the capacity of an AA Eneloop, that's equivalent to 18-24 cells!

Recently I picked up about 5 6600mah power banks, they were on sale locally. What I like about them is that most people now have cars, that have a USB output, and if I loan it out, they can charge it themselves. I have so far, modified three 6V lanterns (by adding a USB cable) so that they can run off of a battery bank's 5V USB output.

I like flexibility.


----------



## Lord Bear

If only for power outages Hand out Fauxtons. Because...
...in a power outage a Fauxton becomes a portable personal light switch.


----------



## MidnightDistortions

I prefer going out to buy some new NiMH cells then to subject them to higher currents. I don't mind doing it once or twice but once i end up having to recharge them quickly it's time to buy some new cells or more chargers if my dead batteries start getting backed up. Most of the time i'll recharge the cells when they are at 50-60% anyway so there's little to no need for me to cook my cells trying to get them charged up quickly.


----------



## Poppy

MidnightDistortions said:


> I prefer going out to buy some new NiMH cells then to subject them to higher currents. I don't mind doing it once or twice but once i end up having to recharge them quickly it's time to buy some new cells or more chargers if my dead batteries start getting backed up. Most of the time i'll recharge the cells when they are at 50-60% anyway so there's little to no need for me to cook my cells trying to get them charged up quickly.



The exercise of the thread is to determine what your lighting (and other power needs may be) for a family of four, and how many batteries you'll need for a week. If you plan to use rechargeables, then you should have them on hand before the outage hits, AND have as many chargers that may be necessary. Don't you think, to plan to go out and buy some new NiMH cells during an outage, is a plan to fail?


----------



## MidnightDistortions

Poppy said:


> The exercise of the thread is to determine what your lighting (and other power needs may be) for a family of four, and how many batteries you'll need for a week. If you plan to use rechargeables, then you should have them on hand before the outage hits, AND have as many chargers that may be necessary. Don't you think, to plan to go out and buy some new NiMH cells during an outage, is a plan to fail?



I think you misunderstand me here. I wouldn't purposely strand myself without enough batteries. I have batteries that will last me upwards of 700hours, that's a month for using cells 24/7 on the stuff i'd need and provided i manage them well that's all i would ever need. My point here is i should not need to slowly kill my cells in order to recharge them. If i run into that problem then that's when i need to get more batteries or chargers in the future to avoid using high recharging rates. I care more about longevity by getting the amount of batteries i need for emergency usage or even daily usage, enough so i can recharge them properly and do not need the batteries charged quicker. I also keep a bare minimum stock of alkaline cells and those are first up used in an emergency in cheap lights. That's even if they work, i usually get them for free but not all battery manufacturers date them.


----------



## Poppy

Poppy said:


> Recently I picked up about 5 6600mah power banks, they were on sale locally. What I like about them is that most people now have cars, that have a USB output, and if I loan it out, they can charge it themselves. I have so far, modified three 6V lanterns (by adding a USB cable) so that they can run off of a battery bank's 5V USB output.



Power Banks to lend out:
Not all car's power ports/cigar lighters/USB ports are always hot. Many actually require the engine to be running! 

Earlier in this thread it was discussed how to hot wire a power port IE, make it always hot. In preparation for an outage, you may want to check and modify, if necessary, your car's power port. For those friends, neighbors, and family members, a fully charged power bank may be used to recharge their cell phones so that they can stay in touch.


----------



## more_vampires

Poppy said:


> Power Banks to lend out:
> Not all car's power ports/cigar lighters/USB ports are always hot. Many actually require the engine to be running!
> 
> Earlier in this thread it was discussed how to hot wire a power port IE, make it always hot.



Cigarette plug wired to bare vehicle battery sitting on a table. Requires no automobile!


----------



## Poppy

more_vampires said:


> Cigarette plug wired to bare vehicle battery sitting on a table. Requires no automobile!



Yes, a deep cycle battery would be better than a typical car battery, but either could help one stay indoors keeping a low profile, or out of the weather.

----------------------------------------

Another thought on the use of battery banks as a power source:
They deliver a constant current 5 volts.
That could make a cheap, unregulated 6Volt lantern a regulated lantern.

In a power outage situation, which would you prefer?
*Constant current regulation*, where the light remains at it's set brightness, but the batteries drain faster when set on high, OR
*Direct drive regulation*, where the light continues to dim as the batteries deplete, but runs longer on "high", because as the batteries deplete, high becomes dimmer and dimmer (demanding less and less from the battery).


----------



## chazz

Poppy said:


> Yes, a deep cycle battery would be better than a typical car battery, but either could help one stay indoors keeping a low profile, or out of the weather.



I might suggest that if you are going to buy a battery for such a purpose, that you opt for a sealed AGM type. Much safer if you are going to use it inside.


----------



## chazz

Poppy said:


> In a power outage situation, which would you prefer?
> *Constant current regulation*, where the light remains at it's set brightness, but the batteries drain faster when set on high, OR
> *Direct drive regulation*, where the light continues to dim as the batteries deplete, but runs longer on "high", because as the batteries deplete, high becomes dimmer and dimmer (demanding less and less from the battery).



Depends on if the light has low modes or not to have long run time, if not maybe a hybrid where it is regulated down to a certain voltage and then direct. Something like the Fenix E01, I think is this way? I think most decent quality lights are like this at least to a small extent. Most will dim, or only the low modes will work etc. I can't think of any that will regulate a constant brightness until the battery just dies.. Then you would have no warning at all, the light would just be working and then it wouldn't, not ideal  

This is just another reason why it is nice to see the run time graphs on lights, I wish more manufacturers would do this. At least we have some good reviewers to test most of the popular lights.

This leads me to another question. In most emergency/power outage situations, is it more important to have a light with a low mode and really long run time. Or, a light with a lot of lumens but only like 2 hours or less run time? 

I know most people will say we need both (not a bad idea), but for me, most of the time I think I would edge toward longer run times. At least you have some light then vs. if you have a bright light for a couple hours then nothing...


----------



## buds224

more_vampires said:


> Cigarette plug wired to bare vehicle battery sitting on a table. Requires no automobile!



Funny you mentioned this......I just finished building and testing this rig I just built. Solar & AC in, 2 Nomad7 panels daisy chained, x2 8Ah (for a total of 16Ah) Deep Cycle Batteries in Parallel 12V, and a DC 12V out into an old Ammo Can.


----------



## reppans

buds224 said:


> Funny you mentioned this......I just finished building and testing this rig I just built. Solar & AC in, 2 Nomad7 panels daisy chained, x2 8Ah (for a total of 16Ah) Deep Cycle Batteries in Parallel 12V, and a DC 12V out into an old Ammo Can.



That's a nice rig .... are you charging through a window? 

FWIW I found GZ's N7 to lose ~75% of its efficiency charging through windows, where Powerfilm's thin-film can double its efficiency (equiv surface area). However, outdoors, perpendicularly tracking direct sunlight, efficiency reverses with the monocrystalline panels doubling the efficiency of thin-film.


----------



## buds224

reppans said:


> That's a nice rig .... are you charging through a window?
> 
> FWIW I found GZ's N7 to lose ~75% of its efficiency charging through windows, where Powerfilm's thin-film can double its efficiency (equiv surface area). However, outdoors, perpendicularly tracking direct sunlight, efficiency reverses with the monocrystalline panels doubling the efficiency of thin-film.



Thanks, I haven't used it heavily yet, but it is my backup power source in case of a bad power outage.

Not so bad with 2 daisy chained, but yes, the efficiency is affected by the windows which is why the windows are opened and this normally gets setup in the outdoors regularly anyway. Getting these two panels at a heavy discount was also a factor. x2 for the price of half of one ; couldn't resist.

Also, it's not quite done. I plan on adding x4 USB ports; hopefully I can find/build something retractable. I want to add strong magnets to the ends so that I can stretch and mount the USB ports to the underside of the cover. Then I can attach sensored USB LEDs into them and they can act as auto-on emergency lighting in rolling blackout conditions.


----------



## more_vampires

Beautiful rig, Buds. I'm jealous.


----------



## Poppy

Very nice Buds224 
You might consider adding a 12-14V DC input so that you could charge it from your car's cigar lighter while you make grocery runs. Just in case the solar can't keep up with your demands. Perhaps there will be prolonged grey days.


----------



## buds224

Great idea. The cable connecting my rig to the panels is a male DC cigarette lighter plug, so I'm assuming that would work too. 12v to 12v shouldn't overload my solar controller.......I hope. LOL. (need to confirm that).


----------



## zipplet

kaichu dento said:


> I've been wearing a light on a neck lanyard for several years now and though I seldom use it there have been a handful of times that made me very glad to have the always-there light.
> 
> +1



Scary stuff. This thread is making me rethink what preparations I should take. Thankfully there has only been one large earthquake since I moved here and it didn't even knock the power out.

I always leave a light on the night stand but that would vanish during an earthquake. The night stand has a drawer with a Fenix LD40 and Jetbeam PA40 in it with charged eneloops - very good power outage lights. For now I'm hoping that they will stay in the drawer even during a big earthquake...


----------



## reppans

zipplet said:


> Scary stuff. *This thread is making me rethink what preparations I should take*. Thankfully there has only been one large earthquake since I moved here and it didn't even knock the power out.



Do you have a BOB locked and loaded? I know someone (grew up in the same neighborhood) that was smack in the middle of the 2011 Fukushima disaster, but managed to get out with his BOB relatively safely and unscathed, but lost everything else he owned in his apartment. Riveting story of luck and coincidence, but over a few days, he managed to hop a train, make it to an airport, took a flight back to the US, and that was it - never went back.


----------



## blah9

reppans said:


> Do you have a BOB locked and loaded? I know someone (grew up in the same neighborhood) that was smack in the middle of the 2011 Fukushima disaster, but managed to get out with his BOB relatively safely and unscathed, but lost everything else he owned in his apartment. Riveting story of luck and coincidence, but over a few days, he managed to hop a train, make it to an airport, took a flight back to the US, and that was it - never went back.



Wow, that's a crazy story. I do have an extra backpack, and I've been reading for a while about various things related to preparedness, but I really don't have a true BOB. I need to get get in gear on this. Thank you for sharing.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

zipplet said:


> Scary stuff. This thread is making me rethink what preparations I should take. Thankfully there has only been one large earthquake since I moved here and it didn't even knock the power out.
> 
> I always leave a light on the night stand but that would vanish during an earthquake. The night stand has a drawer with a Fenix LD40 and Jetbeam PA40 in it with charged eneloops - very good power outage lights. For now I'm hoping that they will stay in the drawer even during a big earthquake...



Just wondering if a person living in an earthquake prone area might install an eyebolt screwed into a wall stud on the wall behind their bed or to the bed frame itself; then, using a lanyard or some other quick-connect method, attaching their flashlight to the eyebolt. Seems like one should be able to get to their torch that way.


CandlePowerForums App


----------



## bluemax_1

KITROBASKIN said:


> Just wondering if a person living in an earthquake prone area might install an eyebolt screwed into a wall stud on the wall behind their bed or to the bed frame itself; then, using a lanyard or some other quick-connect method, attaching their flashlight to the eyebolt. Seems like one should be able to get to their torch that way.
> 
> 
> CandlePowerForums App



That's a good idea, but if I was living in an earthquake zone, I'd stick to the lanyard around the neck so I'd know I always have the light with me, even if things suddenly go south while I'm on a midnight visit to the bathroom etc.


Max


----------



## BloodLust

I'm thinking of ordering a UV Paqlite which I'll wall mount near or on top of the doors in each room or at least the bathrooms.
I do have small emergency lights in the bathroom when the power goes out but that's always plugged in. I want something that doesn't use electricity when there's nobody using the bathroom.

There's a Matlite that's a whole solid piece and the reviews on it are generally positive.


----------



## StarHalo

Powdered alcohol has just been approved by regulators; it will be sold under the name Palcohol and will be available initially in vodka, rum, cosmo, and margarita. It's about to get a whole lot easier to pack hooch in your outage kit/bug out bag.


----------



## Taz80

StarHalo said:


> Powdered alcohol has just been approved by regulators; it will be sold under the name Palcohol and will be available initially in vodka, rum, cosmo, and margarita. It's about to get a whole lot easier to pack hooch in your outage kit/bug out bag.



And now your Teenagers will have a reason to raid your bug out bag.


----------



## Poppy

StarHalo said:


> Powdered alcohol has just been approved by regulators; it will be sold under the name Palcohol and will be available initially in vodka, rum, cosmo, and margarita. It's about to get a whole lot easier to pack hooch in your outage kit/bug out bag.


That sounds a bit scary to me. I hope that we don't see a lot of kids dying of alcohol poisoning.

Hmm, I wonder... could it be used as a water purifier, instead of iodine?


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> That sounds a bit scary to me. I hope that we don't see a lot of kids dying of alcohol poisoning.
> 
> Hmm, I wonder... could it be used as a water purifier, instead of iodine?



If the alcohol content is high enough, yes. Back in ye olde times, as far as bacteria was concerned, it was safer to drink alcoholic beverages than water for that reason.

Tastes better than iodine too I'll bet.


Max

P.S. Funny anecdotal story about that; my mechanic's wife was telling me about a trip they made to Mexico some time ago. They went with an old friend of my mechanic's and she said the entire trip, both of them drank nothing but alcohol while she drank soda pop.

They all ate the same food the entire trip but she was the only one who got hit by Montezuma's Revenge. Since she never drank the water, she surmised that it might have been the water used to wash the veggies in the salads (all the other food they consumed was cooked and served hot).

Although her husband and his buddy also ate the salad, she thinks all the alcohol they were guzzling might have killed the bugs in their guts before they could multiply.


----------



## Poppy

bluemax_1 said:


> Although her husband and his buddy also ate the salad, she thinks all the alcohol they were guzzling might have killed the bugs in their guts before they could multiply.


hmmm, interesting thought.

When I get a sore throat, I sometimes coat it with 2 ounces of Drambuie. It burns a little, but I figure that it is killing the bugs. I might follow with another 2 ounces. Then either the bugs are dead, or the back of my throat is numb (drunk), or I am smiling, and don't really care


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> hmmm, interesting thought.
> 
> When I get a sore throat, I sometimes coat it with 2 ounces of Drambuie. It burns a little, but I figure that it is killing the bugs. I might follow with another 2 ounces. Then either the bugs are dead, or the back of my throat is numb (drunk), or I am smiling, and don't really care



LOL. I recall that application being termed 'Grandpa's cough medicine'. Although I'm teetotal now, back when I used to still drink, when I had a sore throat, a double shot of Johnnie Walker Black Label neat would burn going down, but allow me to talk for a period of time after, where I couldn't before. When the effects wore off, I'd simply take another dose of medication


Max


----------



## StarHalo

Tornadoes down in Tulsa, OK; power flashes everywhere, anyone in the area with a report?

Live coverage on local radio KRMG AM 740, can be heard on iHeartRadio


----------



## Poppy

Did we miss Earth Hour again this year?


----------



## Phlogiston

I think it was yesterday. The BBC had a news item _afterwards_ - how useful...


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> Did we miss Earth Hour again this year?



Put the thread up at the start of the week..


----------



## Poppy

> Originally Posted by *Poppy*
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that YOU have been vigilant in posting this annual event, I guess in the Cafe section of the site. Would you please consider posting an annual link in this thread to your announcement?





StarHalo said:


> Yeah, I didn't get an Earth Hour thread up this year until the night before the event, so there wasn't much of a reminder for folks who weren't aware of the date. *If this thread is still alive next year, I'll link it*.



Sorry StarHalo, I haven't been watching the Cafe' section, and missed your announcement, I thought that I would see an announcement in this thread, which I do keep an eye on.

Oh well... I can set up a practice date at any time. It's just nice to be a part of the larger picture.


----------



## StarHalo

Ah ha, good catch; I try to avoid cross-posting so the mods won't be annoyed, but I should mention/link here, you're right. There are other folks in that thread who also missed the date, you could set up a second one just for the CPFers who need a redo..


----------



## mega_lumens

20 pages of good info and it's still hard for me to set-up a logistically smart system. Questions like is 2 weeks of light supply enough or strive for longer and for how much longer? How many lumens is really enough...I think 30 at minimum. And my never ending dilemma is which battery platform to rely on? What if cr123s run out before your apocalypse emergency? I rely on Zebralight or multiple output and long run times but my zebra is 18650 platform and what if they run out before the emergency ends? How many of 18650s to stock up on without going bankrupt? So does this make AA platform lights the ultimate emergency light because AA is widely available and can be recharged by solar ( virtually don't run out) But once 18650s run out, you're stuck cause solar can't charge them.


----------



## thedoc007

Unless there is a prophet out there, no one can say for sure what method is best. Better to pick one and get something going than to obsess over which is best, and end up doing nothing. I went with 18650s for general use...I have enough of them to last quite a while. If for some reason I can't get to a charger in a timely fashion, I have a small quantity of CR123s as well as backups. Gives me a lot of flexibility. 

18650s can be charged by solar power, so that isn't a qualitative difference between the two types. http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...Solar-Powered-amp-USB-Chargers-2-panels-added

I would go with the type you like to use on a regular basis. If you prefer to EDC an AA light, go with that. If, like me, you don't mind carrying a larger light, so with 18650. Remember that one modern 18650 has equivalent energy to four quality AAs...you'll definitely need more batteries if you go with the smaller form factor. With that in mind, cost is not much different either way.


----------



## reppans

mega_lumens said:


> ... But once 18650s run out, you're stuck cause solar can't charge them.



Sure you charge 18650s with solar, just like anything else - might need more surface area or more time, but you have the same solar, 12V, or generator options (all of which I have at home). My concern is if caught while away from home (eg, NYC at work during the great NE blackout of '03), for that, I now EDC a light that can run efficiently on ANY battery I can scavenge .


----------



## bluemax_1

reppans said:


> Sure you charge 18650s with solar, just like anything else - might need more surface area or more time, but you have the same solar, 12V, or generator options (all of which I have at home). My concern is if caught while away from home (eg, NYC at work during the great NE blackout of '03), for that, I now EDC a light that can run efficiently on ANY battery I can scavenge .



Yep, even though I EDC a single 18650 light (lots of lumens when needed, or much longer runtimes at medium lumen levels eg. 3-100 lumen levels), I always carry my 4/7s QPA. Runs on 1AA or 2AA with the extender, or 1x14500 (which is what it's loaded with for Maximum lumens with the short 1-cell configuration), or even 1xAAA or 1xAAAA with a little creative MacGyvering.

Lots of flexibility in emergencies.

For home, extended outages, I have lots of options from single to multiple 18650 lights to single to multiple AA lights, super long runtime 9v PakLites, lanterns, etc. AND multiple ways to recharge them all, from solar, to vehicle 12v power (or 12v vehicle batteries) or gasoline power gennies.

In an extended outage, lighting isn't going to be the issue and I suspect the same holds true for more than a few CPF'ers.

For a start though, 2 weeks of lighting without requiring recharging is a great place to start. Beyond that point, most folks aside from the hardcore serious preppers are going to start having more pressing concerns than the ability to have light sources after dark.


Max


----------



## reppans

Fixed 



bluemax_1 said:


> ... I always carry my 4/7s QPA. Runs on 1AA or 2AA with the extender, or 1x14500 (which is what it's loaded with for Maximum lumens with the short 1-cell configuration), or even *1xAAA/9V/C/D/CR123/10440 through 26650, etc, etc... *with a little creative MacGyvering.
> 
> Lots of flexibility in emergencies...


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

mega_lumens said:


> 20 pages of good info and it's still hard for me to set-up a logistically smart system. Questions like is 2 weeks of light supply enough or strive for longer and for how much longer? How many lumens is really enough...I think 30 at minimum. And my never ending dilemma is which battery platform to rely on? What if cr123s run out before your apocalypse emergency? I rely on Zebralight or multiple output and long run times but my zebra is 18650 platform and what if they run out before the emergency ends? How many of 18650s to stock up on without going bankrupt? So does this make AA platform lights the ultimate emergency light because AA is widely available and can be recharged by solar ( virtually don't run out) But once 18650s run out, you're stuck cause solar can't charge them.



Any battery, including a 18650, can be recharged with solar so may I suggest you look into either one of Suntactics' chargers or any by Aspect Solar?

You won't be disappointed. On a related note I am not looking forward to recharging my Eneloops because I am disappointed in their short run times. Full disclosure: I have more research to do on them, despite charging them for 5 hours, hence my frustration.

LetThereBeLight!


----------



## MidnightDistortions

mega_lumens said:


> 20 pages of good info and it's still hard for me to set-up a logistically smart system. Questions like is 2 weeks of light supply enough or strive for longer and for how much longer? How many lumens is really enough...I think 30 at minimum. And my never ending dilemma is which battery platform to rely on? What if cr123s run out before your apocalypse emergency? I rely on Zebralight or multiple output and long run times but my zebra is 18650 platform and what if they run out before the emergency ends? How many of 18650s to stock up on without going bankrupt? So does this make AA platform lights the ultimate emergency light because AA is widely available and can be recharged by solar ( virtually don't run out) But once 18650s run out, you're stuck cause solar can't charge them.



I prefer using AA's as they are pretty common and you could either get some lithium AA's or stick with alkalines. At this point i don't trust li-ion cells in an emergency, you would first have to figure out how to use them properly and safely so you can keep the lifespan of the cells good while keeping the home or workplace safe. Whenever i get money i'll most likely get one set of 18650 with a good light, but for now i got enough AA/AAA NiMH cells and a few alkalines at the ready in case and have enough for months on end. I would be more concerned in finding lights that can produce low lumens and having a few lights that can run for a long time on D cells or if not there's some AA ones.

If a post-apocalyptic world were to happen i wouldn't want to be walking cross country and a li-ion light blow up in my pack, chances are you won't have time to keep tabs on the charge levels and you would most likely be relying on solar to recharge your batteries.



LetThereBeLight! said:


> Any battery, including a 18650, can be recharged with solar so may I suggest you look into either one of Suntactics' chargers or any by Aspect Solar?
> 
> You won't be disappointed. On a related note I am not looking forward to recharging my Eneloops because I am disappointed in their short run times. Full disclosure: I have more research to do on them, despite charging them for 5 hours, hence my frustration.
> 
> LetThereBeLight!



I'm surprised that people even have trouble with Eneloops, i've only been using them for a year but they last pretty well for me. It could be your device or your charging device/habits that is causing frustration. Eneloops don't like being overcharged for one and there are chargers out there that will undercharge your cells giving you a reduced capacity. Some other factors might apply like the environment they are subjected to and the other thing that could be an issue is you might need more capacity so i suggest looking for Duracell Ion Core (2400mAh), Amazonbasics or the Eneloop Pros. They have a shorter lifespan depending on if you use them constantly, but they most likely will give you the extra power you need.


----------



## buds224

My portable solar generator has undergone its final upgrade. It's now an emergency lamp as well as a DC power supply. Warm LEDs running off of x2 12V 8AH in parallel. Should last a long time on a single charge.


----------



## mega_lumens

thedoc007 said:


> Unless there is a prophet out there, no one can say for sure what method is best. Better to pick one and get something going than to obsess over which is best, and end up doing nothing. I went with 18650s for general use...I have enough of them to last quite a while. If for some reason I can't get to a charger in a timely fashion, I have a small quantity of CR123s as well as backups. Gives me a lot of flexibility.
> 
> 18650s can be charged by solar power, so that isn't a qualitative difference between the two types. http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...Solar-Powered-amp-USB-Chargers-2-panels-added
> 
> I would go with the type you like to use on a regular basis. If you prefer to EDC an AA light, go with that. If, like me, you don't mind carrying a larger light, so with 18650. Remember that one modern 18650 has equivalent energy to four quality AAs...you'll definitely need more batteries if you go with the smaller form factor. With that in mind, cost is not much different either way.


 Thanks for clarifying this. I'm completely technical illiterate when it comes to solar set-ups. I would definitely focus on 18650 as main platform but also AA eneloops. I will now need to read up more and figure out which solar set-up will work best for my needs. Is Cottonpickers the best solar set-ups out there right now?


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

mega_lumens said:


> Thanks for clarifying this. I'm completely technical illiterate when it comes to solar set-ups. I would definitely focus on 18650 as main platform but also AA eneloops. I will now need to read up more and figure out which solar set-up will work best for my needs. Is Cottonpickers the best solar set-ups out there right now?



I really know nothing about Cottonpickers but products from either Suntactics or Aspect Solar I think you will find are very simple and cost-effective. Each presents two different but effective ways of recharging either a battery or a rechargable light.

LetThereBeLight!

Edit: I apologize, I neglected to mention that each unit recharges a device with the same capacity as a wall charger. So my understanding is that either device will power your battery recharger &/or rechargable light through the power of the sun no less than a wall charger.


----------



## MidnightDistortions

Power went out here, got the batteries and flashlights out. Got enough battery power to last a month, 16 aa eneloops, 8aaa eneloop pros and a bunch of other aa/aaa cells.


----------



## Poppy

I noted that you posted every day 4/1-4/10, and not since your power went out.
My thought with all of your AA batteries, I wouldn't have enough power for a month, unless I could recharge them. Honestly, I am counting on being able to recharge my rechargeables so that I can freely "share the wealth" with my neighbors.

At any rate I am looking forward to you sharing your recent experience with us, and your thoughts about power needs/wants, and any improvements you plan.


----------



## Grijon

Poppy said:


> At any rate I am looking forward to you sharing your recent experience with us, and your thoughts about power needs/wants, and any improvements you plan.



+1


----------



## StarHalo

Just realized another advantage of the ceiling-bounce method of lighting: You can briefly hold your beer bottle over the light to check crucial fluid levels..


----------



## RetroTechie

:laughing:

In developed world, power outages don't last long enough to please affected members of the CPF crowd. 

Lesson learned: when a power outage hits, light up your house like a Xmas tree! And your neighbor's houses too! By the time the first batteries run empty, power will be back on.


----------



## markr6

StarHalo said:


> Just realized another advantage of the ceiling-bounce method of lighting: You can briefly hold your beer bottle over the light to check crucial fluid levels..



The less light passing thru, the better the beer. Please no fizzy yellow urine beer for me


----------



## dss_777

markr6 said:


> The less light passing thru, the better the beer. Please no fizzy yellow urine beer for me



Oh, now you've done it.

There are plenty of very pleasing amber lagers with your name on them, if you're able to see the beer though the bottles...


----------



## RobertMM

Have finally gotten myself a solar setup with a 100watt panel, 50AH 12volt deep cycle battery, charge controller with several 12v output ports and a usb port,and built in 100watt inverter for AC appliances with light loads. 

At this time I have hooked 2x 7watt LED bulbs wired to the livibg room ceiling and dining room/kitchen, a 12volt DC15watt electricfan and a 12v output jack to power my Xtar chargers. 

The Xtar with 2 18650s doesn't even make the big battery's voltage drop a bit. 

Suddenly my loads of batteries and lights are feeling a bit redundant, but they'll still be here as backup in case my primary power system fails.


----------



## Poppy

Last month we went through about 1,300 kilowatt hours of electricity. We certainly weren't playing the minimalist game, but I am wondering, how many watts we might go though if we needed to conserve, and how big a solar collector we might need.

Any ideas?


----------



## RobertMM

Some people in my facebook solar enthusiasts' page are getting by off grid with 3x200Ah batteries, 1000watts of solsr panel, a decent charge controller and a 2-3Kw inverter. 
For such a setup you can run pretty much all the LED bulbs in the house, a small refrigerator, LED TV and two or three electric fans, plus all the chargers for batteries. Not that you're going to need so many batteries, with such a set up. No need to even conserve.

Heck, I live alone and run my solar system all of the time, and I'm anxiously waiting for my next power utility bill. I wouldn't be surprised at what I see though. Right now only my fridge is consuming grid power, and when I upgrade my solar setup even that fridge is going to run exclusively on solar.


----------



## eh4

As long as each family member has their own light with an efficient moonlight and low, it seems like you could get by fine with say one AA battery per person per week. 
Say if each family member had an L3 L10 4 mode AA twisty light for instance. 
This is more like a backpacking frame of reference, there's no attempt to simulate ordinary grid tied light usage. You would tend to go to sleep earlier, or maybe just read. 
You can cook simple meals just fine with a moonlight mode, clean the pot, bathe, get ready for bed, move around safely, etc. 
I'd want a couple of higher powered lights for emergencies or sorting out problems, but I'd try to avoid needing to use them and stick with the night adapted eye efficient modes.


----------



## 1DaveN

Poppy said:


> I am such a proponent of "auto on" Emergency lighting, that I wanted to bring attention to buds224's solution/suggestion, for the late comers to the thread who may not have read the thread all the way through. If you don't have auto on emergency lights, when a power failure hits, you might be instantly, in cave like darkness. Just a few units giving off just five or ten lumens each strategically placed can make your home safe so that you can get to your lighting supplies without tripping, or the kids panicking.



In direct response to this comment from back in February, I got my parents (84 and 90) a pair of auto-on emergency lights. Dad was impressed with them and got several more, so they're all over their house. The other night, my Mom called to tell me she had been walking through the upstairs when the power went out, and the emergency light let her navigate safely to bed (and potentially kept her from falling down the stairs).

I've gotten a lot of useful information from CPF, but this is a real example of how the forums' shared wisdom improves people's lives and safety. Thanks, Poppy - and by the way, my nieces and nephews call my Dad Poppy too


----------



## ForrestChump

OP -

"Let's say there is an extended power outage 5-7 days, and you are a family of four. Two adults, and two children ages 5 and 10.
Let's say that you can recharge your batteries each day, (either using your car's battery and alternator for power, or by driving to a location that still has power). OR if you use alkalines, how many will you need for a week?"

I commented before but opinions change and it's a fun topic. For 7 days / No budget - 2 Adults (2) Malkoff Turnkey MD2's M61 Hi / Low & 4 Fenix CL20's for the rooms----- 2 young children - 2 Petzel Tikkina Headlamps with AAA Lithiums. 

Adults - 50 CR123'3 - Kids - 18 AAA Lithiums. The kid rule is no touching any batteries or CL20's and being careful with the headlamp beam and not blinding each other. ( relatively low anyway ) - That be more than plenty without any careful power management.


----------



## Poppy

1DaveN said:


> In direct response to this comment from back in February, I got my parents (84 and 90) a pair of auto-on emergency lights. Dad was impressed with them and got several more, so they're all over their house. The other night, my Mom called to tell me she had been walking through the upstairs when the power went out, and the emergency light let her navigate safely to bed (and potentially kept her from falling down the stairs).
> 
> I've gotten a lot of useful information from CPF, but this is a real example of how the forums' shared wisdom improves people's lives and safety. Thanks, Poppy - and by the way, my nieces and nephews call my Dad Poppy too



1DaveN,
Your kind words warm my heart! 

THANK YOU for letting me know of your mom's experience. I am delighted! 

All smiles.... I Love Poppy as a nick-name :thumbsup: Your Dad must be special!


----------



## 1DaveN

Poppy said:


> 1DaveN,
> Your kind words warm my heart!
> 
> THANK YOU for letting me know of your mom's experience. I am delighted!
> 
> All smiles.... I Love Poppy as a nick-name :thumbsup: Your Dad must be special!



You're welcome  And thank you for pointing out something I should have been able to see for myself.


----------



## Poppy

Amazingly, cigar lighter power ports are OPTIONS on some cars! USB ports too! 

My dad's car, a 2015 Altima, if it has the option, it is only live, when the engine is actually running, and with a push button starter, and remote key, there is no accessory on, switch position.

Happy Father's Day! I plan to install a 12V power port, and two USB ports, one a 1.0A, the other a 2.1 amp port, that are always hot, fused of course.
This way he can charge his phone, and batteries from his car, in the event of an outage.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251973092961


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> Happy Father's Day! I plan to install a 12V power port, and two USB ports, one a 1.0A, the other a 2.1 amp port, that are always hot, fused of course.
> This way he can charge his phone, and batteries from his car, in the event of an outage.



You'll only need two 12V plugs and one of these.


----------



## MidnightDistortions

StarHalo said:


> You'll only need two 12V plugs and one of these.



Just added this to my 'save for later' cart collection. It looks like a good USB car adapter, i was always afraid to get a USB car adapter that would damage my cellphone battery but that looks reliable enough to charge lithium-ion batteries with.


----------



## Grijon

Poppy said:


> Amazingly, cigar lighter power ports are OPTIONS on some cars! USB ports too!
> 
> My dad's car, a 2015 Altima, if it has the option, it is only live, when the engine is actually running, and with a push button starter, and remote key, there is no accessory on, switch position.



Hi there Poppy,

On most cars with keyless ignitions, like your dad's '15 Altima, you can activate the accessory on 'position' by pushing the start button without pressing the brake pedal. So it's like you're starting the car, but without using the brake pedal.

Check it out!
Grijon


----------



## Poppy

Grijon said:


> Hi there Poppy,
> 
> On most cars with keyless ignitions, like your dad's '15 Altima, you can activate the accessory on 'position' by pushing the start button without pressing the brake pedal. So it's like you're starting the car, but without using the brake pedal.
> 
> Check it out!
> Grijon



Grijon,
Thanks! I'll see him tomorrow, and check it out.

I don't know why, but I am still sometimes SURPRISED at the collective knowledge of the people here at CPF. 

I had called a Nissan dealership, and spoke to: either parts, or the service manager. One would THINK that either would know. 

My daughter has a Mazda push button, and my dad the Nissan. I can't wait to try them both! 

Thanks Grijon!


----------



## Grijon

Poppy said:


> Grijon,
> Thanks! I'll see him tomorrow, and check it out.
> 
> I don't know why, but I am still sometimes SURPRISED at the collective knowledge of the people here at CPF.
> 
> I had called a Nissan dealership, and spoke to: either parts, or the service manager. One would THINK that either would know.
> 
> My daughter has a Mazda push button, and my dad the Nissan. I can't wait to try them both!
> 
> Thanks Grijon!



You're very welcome and I look forward to hearing how it goes! lovecpf


----------



## Poppy

Grijon said:


> Hi there Poppy,
> 
> On most cars with keyless ignitions, like your dad's '15 Altima, you can activate the accessory on 'position' by pushing the start button without pressing the brake pedal. So it's like you're starting the car, but without using the brake pedal.
> 
> Check it out!
> Grijon



Hey Grijon, that worked great!!! I found that I needed to have the remote key with me, to turn the accessory ON and that it stayed active even if I moved the key 50 feet away. 

Thanks so much!


----------



## blah9

Awesome, thank you guys for the tip! That's good to know.


----------



## Grijon

Poppy said:


> Hey Grijon, that worked great!!! I found that I needed to have the remote key with me, to turn the accessory ON and that it stayed active even if I moved the key 50 feet away.
> 
> Thanks so much!



You are most welcome!


----------



## Grijon

blah9 said:


> Awesome, thank you guys for the tip! That's good to know.



lovecpf


----------



## Rick NJ

*Poppy, it was interesting reading your experience with Sandy from northern NJ. * I am probably just around 20 miles from you, but we had very different experience. This is an interesting thread. I have not done electronics for ages. It was preparing emergency lights that got me restarted in doing some electronics again.

You said you were out of power 3 days or 4. I am at the border of Somerset and Hunterdon county in the more rural area of NJ (near the Balloon festival). I was out 8-11 days (forgot exactly, but it was >8 and <11). Just yards from me, they were out > 14 days! That side of the road came from different distribution lines and took > 14 days to get power! I was on the road between Rt22 and Califon NJ, some where still out of power a month after. (As determined by the total darkness and the occasional light-ed house coupled with the sound of power generator). 

*For over a week, we had no gas - none!* Along route 22, one gas station I frequented was open and some customers fighting for gas. One dead, one injured. Roads were flooded and blocked by tree-branches. It was by day 2 or 3 that we can even get to route 22 about 2 miles away (where stores/shops are) but none were open anyhow.

First day, I can hear a near-by gas powered generator. Second night, some sound for a while. Beyond second night that power generator was quiet probably because there was no gas anywhere. By day 4 or 5, we got to a town 10-15 miles west (coffee shop = power). The coffee shop was jammed with people charging their phones/laptops, and sharing info. A stranded motorist was calling (no gas). AAA (auto club) was saying *nearest place they can confirm gas availability was on the PA side 40 miles west of Clinton NJ*. We could use a power outlet for less than an hour.

Our natural gas came from underground pipes and they were ok. HVAC doesn't run without electric power, so I have hot water, cooking gas stove, but no heat. 

About 4-5 days into the outage (day after coffee shop), I was able to get to a library (Bridgewater ~ 14 miles) where we can do some more charging. Due to time limit and outlet limit, we were not able to full charge anything. Due to no gas, we were not able to get to Bridgewater library more frequent. So, around day 6 or 7, we drove to my in-laws, get gas-up in PA, and charged all we can charge (most important being the two SLA car jumper batteries, they were our main power source). My in-laws were out of power for a while too initially but by then restored. They had a power generator but due to improper storage, it didn't work.
*
Sandy was the second time we were out for > =7 days in two years. A couple of years before Sandy on Halloween weekend (recall that Halloween storm?) we were out 7 days.

So, my criteria for emergency lights are based on those two experiences:*

*- Forget power generators for major storm.* Apart from those without gas (and there were many), the "neighborhood chit chat" was many other instances of no-go: generators needs to be stored drained and cleaned. When it wasn't, it just doesn't work when you "pull it out from the garage with the tank half filled a couple of years back".

*- It is not just the "no light to read or eat". The persistent darkness is hard to deal with. * So I cooked up what I called "forever light": LED ballasted to run below 10mA at LOW and about 40mA at HIGH with 3AA. This will avoid total darkness "practically forever" with just two sets of 3AA (of course not really forever, min 200 hours with 2000mAH Eneloops. But as the volt drops, the 10mA will drop but some light will be there - I stopped testing after 3 weeks ON and it was still giving out lights). Set on HIGH (40mA), the light is bright enough to read. Each family member (3 of us) each has his/her own set of this "forever light". When outage does occur, the plan is to start with the 15 or so AA NiMH from our WII remote and other things. Since with Sandy we were caught off-guard with practically all the batteries near totally drained, each family member has 2 sets of 3AA (Eneloop) fully charged on reserve.

*- RV lights:* 1 to 3W 12x5050SMD LED for RV dome light. The 12V power came from three SLA's. Three lights (one for each): Two car jumper boost batteries (5 and 7AH), and one extra 7AH 12V SLA battery with carrying strap. These lights deploys at discretion of the assign-to person. So when we are together, all three can be in the kitchen and we have more than enough light for cooking, eating, or whatever. 
*
- Three more of these RV lights each connected to a boost.* The boost-in connector fitted for 1x18650 or the 3xAA "forever light" power-out plug. These three 18650-RV lights serve as mobile lights for activities such as bath room to wash face or nature calls. Intended to use 18650's but when run by the 3AA pack on boost, the RV lights will work for about 1 hour and it will still leave enough juice left to run the 10mA LED for a few more days.

The three 3AA battery packs's power-out connectors are set up in a way that they can serial - for quick charging with all 9 AA's in serial. My experience from charging at the library (or coffee shop) is: overcharge is not a worry. We were time-limited there. From that experience, my set up for the future coffee shop "power visit" is a 800mA 14.5 volt power-brick to pump what it can into the 9AA's in serial with the limited time we were allowed to stay.

*- The SLA's have "un-intrusive looking" jumpers.* One lesson is that my "lab table" setup to charge (bread board, cc/cv board, TP4056 or LM317 controlled by an Arduino) cannot be taken to the coffee shop or the library. They would freak out if I use my normal battery charging set up. So, apart from having consumer-style chargers to put them at ease, I have other tricks.

(CLA = cigarette lighter adapter)

My three SLA's has CLA connecting them in parallel somewhat invisibly to a single 3A 15V laptop power brick for fast charging and small CLA volt-meter to monitor progress. Testing show in it takes over 1 hour to bring them (3 parallel SLA's) from near empty to near 13.6V. If I do bring them to 14V, I will switch to 1A 14V power brick to prevent gassing - that is the reason I equipped that setup with a CLA volt meter. At the library or coffee shop, outlets are at a premium. My laptop bag "power-visit alternate setup" is now equipped with hidden power strip that no one can see. So, in what appears to be just charging my laptop, I am also charging my SLAs (3Parallel). Again, over-charging is not a concern in the hour or two we were allowed to stay. My AA charger and the recently acquired 18650 charger can both be hidden in the laptop bag. I have to get a CLA adapter for my 18650 charger yet. With everything connected, I am pulling about 150-200watts only so I am not a power hog. But I have to minimize the number of connected power-bricks (and make them less visible with wire bundles after bundles) so I wont makes the store nervous.

*- "Jumper cables!" * Why drive to the library or coffee shop? Big jumper cables to customized little ones and charge my SLA by the car idling on the drive way. The gasoline I used to get to and from the library could have charged my SLA's for 1 hour. With an inverter, I am also charging my AA's. This would be a better bet when there is wide area outage (coffee shop/library full so time limited visit). So my solutions are geared towards Car-to-SLA, then SLA-to-AA/18650 as well. My AA charger has CLA adaptor. My 18650 charger has CLA too but I will need to remake it (the adaptor runs too hot - the spring is not 3A capable for extended duration). 

*- While gas powered generator has its draw backs*, I am still thinking about them on and off. Last winter (no power outage), it was -10F some nights and no-heat would have been very hard. The generator is useless to the HVAC heating unless house wiring to the HVAC is changed to accept occasional generator used. For insurance reasons alone, it must be done by licensed electricians. That the generator needs to be drained and cleaned before storage means it is not as much of a "put away until emergency" solution. That is on my mind, but likely I won't do anything until after the next big outage to change my mind.

*With Sandy, I was caught with my pants down* with practically all my batteries in near-empty state. Since Sandy, we have had a couple of 1-2 days outage. The lighting solution I had was exercised and worked very well. I didn't have to touch my Eneloop reserves, and hardly needed to recharge my SLAs, but charging tests give me comfort and confidence that one 2 hour charge using my set up would give me 3-4 days of light normal and 7-10 days conservative use. All other charge time can be use to power entertainment (laptop movies) to keep us sane in powerless nights. Gas stove heating was inadequate for comfort but adequate for survival. It is dangerous so heating is something I must look into for extended power failure in the winter.


----------



## reppans

What a great write-up on your Sandy experience Rick - thanks for sharing it .

Sandy was the third major 5-day power outage for us in ~ 3yr period - the Halloween snowstorm, and one other late winter storm I don't recall, were the others. I have a small class B RV (campervan), so between its generator and propane fridge/stove, we can maintain a reasonably normal life for bug-in or bug-out. I just need to make sure I top-off the tanks (water/propane/gas) based on weather forecast and warnings. I'm more concerned about a prolonged mid-winter outage - although I have a few plans for that, I don't think my family will be up for "roughing" that out at home.

The gas situation was the one surprise from Sandy for us. Although we had topped off our vehicles prior, and our town had their pumps rolling in a couple days, we bordered the NO GAS zone and our town's roads where BADLY gridlocked by the out-of-state hoards lining up for fuel. It was scary, even trying to turn into a driveway or side road started screaming matches as people just assume you were trying to cut the gas lines - I started packing heat for those days.

Good points on failing generators ... yes, you need to either exercise them monthly, stabilize the fuel, or empty/clean-out the tanks/carbs. The other ridiculously stupid thing I kept seeing (hearing) were the folks that run them continuously once the outage starts, and then run them out of fuel quickly. Duh... be conservative if you don't know when the power will be return - cycle the generator just enough to keep the fridge from spoiling, and use batteries to bank the power for flashlights/gadgets during the periods in between. Same goes for burning 100 lumen modes with a limited battery supply. I consumed ~1 gallon/day keeping our 2 house fridge/freezers from spoiling, and all electronic gadgets/flashlights charged, and the van has a 30gal tank. For transportation fuel conservation, we have a ~50 mpg hybrid car, and motorcycle, but I do need to learn/practice how to defeat modern vehicle's anti-siphon/roll-over protection safety valves to shift fuel between vehicles.

In the scheme of SHTF, these outages were relatively minor events (well except to coastal NY/NJ), the outages were reasonably localized and the commercial districts were brought up quickly, so food and clean water were rarely issues. As an backpacker and bicyclist, and with several solar charging set-ups, I can take another large step down from comforts of RV life and make due without electricity, fuel, or public water.... but if the food supply/deliver chain broke down, it would catch up to me pretty quickly .


----------



## Rick NJ

No need to thank me but you are welcome. It is fun sharing experience - particularly one as traumatic as Sandy.*

The lack of gasoline took me by surprise also.* If I recall right, it was the one-two punch of refineries damaged and the flooding taking out gas stations. So the few remaining functional stations ran out of gas very soon and resupply did not come due to the damaged infrastructure.

*The lesson I took from Sandy is, first I need to judge how wide the outage is*. If it was like Sandy, the library and coffee shop was so filled that not all "power visits" resulted in plug-in time - (too many people in line, etc). If that is the case next time, we need to go into deep conservation mode early. In this case, *the budget for duration between visits is 1/2 what I can fill with one visit*. So, if the next visit results in no plug in time, I am not left in darkness.

*The second lesson is, plan not base on what I have but what I can refill in an hour* - it is all how much I can pump into the storage (SLA, NiMH, Lithium...) So, chargers are critical. The stock 1A charger and stock 300mA charger for my car jump/boost SLA's are useless for this purpose. Solution is the 15V 3A laptop PSU to pump directly into the SLA via CLA till 14V with CLA volt monitor, then switch to 14V 1A power brick. The slow charging NiMH consumer chargers is useless. Even the BC700 (700mA 4AA) is not enough. Solution is the additional serial 9xAA serial "charger" (plugs in my three 3xAA light) via 800mA 14.5V power-brick to supplement.

For a 1-2 hour "power visit" with approx 1 hour plug in time:
- My laptop PSU charging 3 SLA's in parallel (30WH in, storing 20WH). That is 20 hours of 1W RV dome light for cooking and washing. Good for almost a week if I run single 1W verses multiple. The SLA will charge the phones, so I don't really have 20WH just for lights.
- My serial 9xAA charge method and my pair of AA charger charging a total of 21 AA's. Estimated 500mAH stored in each. That is 7 sets of 3AA each at 500mAH. That would run my so called "forever light" at LOW for over a month or HIGH (3AA at 50mA) for 70 hours. So while not bright, I would not be in total darkness. for a week. I can even put it in my ultra high mode (80mA) if I feel I can be lavish.
- My 18650's supplement are new, so I have not tested them under that plan. I could pump in 1A for four 18650's resulting in around 500mAH to 700mAH stored. That would be mobile 1W RV light for a few hours. (Via boost, I would be drawing about 600mA @ 3.7V to drive ~ [email protected])

So light-wise, I am ok for a week with one "power visit", and I am in very good shape if I can have two "power visits" in a week.* Deep winter cold without heat - that really is the big problem.*


----------



## braddy

Since we can charge our batteries in the car, why not just get a large enough solar, car battery panel, to keep it full as you run the battery chargers from the cigarette lighter?

How about a sine inverter for your car, to top off the house refrigerator, 2 or 3 times a day?

For a cold house, I would want the plumbing adapted so that I could drain it if I was unable to keep it from freezing. I would want a small camping Propane heater, that puts out 3,000 btu or less, that would take the edge off of one small room, and I would be prepared to move all my canned goods, and liquid household goods into that room, along with any other freeze sensitive goods, and prefer to have lots of candles for lighting, during winter.


These ideas work for people with little money, someone with some money to spend can easily solve any of these problems.


----------



## eh4

Good thoughts braddy.


----------



## StarHalo

braddy said:


> How about a sine inverter for your car, to top off the house refrigerator, 2 or 3 times a day?



That would handle the ~1200 watt kick when it starts?


----------



## bluemax_1

For folks considering a propane heater for emergency heating during a cold weather outage, just bear in mind the carbon monoxide dangers with indoor use. Make sure the house, and ESPECIALLY the room has properly functioning CO detectors. In fact I'm a strong advocate of low-level CO detectors like the Aeromedix.

When I had a winter outage (ice storm took out power lines all over the state), I used a forced air propane heater placed so it blew into the house, but the unit was outside. Even the smaller units can warm things up very quickly. Heat the room up till it's uncomfortably warm and it takes longer before it gets cold enought to need to fire it up again.

I have a number of portable solar panels now that can charge the vehicle batteries (and spare car batteries), not to mention the Li ion packs.

I also have numerous options to charge cellphones from USB outlets in the car, to the GoalZero Sherpa 50 & 100 packs to the Xtar SP1 and the other cheap 1x18650 charger that also allow you to use an 18650 to power a USB charging port (along with a stash of 18650s that get used, charged and rotated).

I also have a stash of Eneloops and AA and AAA lithium primaries for the AA and AAA powered lights.

Light is no longer an issue.

2 Sawyer purifiers + the Sawyer filter cover emergency water needs as long as I have access to water sources (several ponds/lakes and a river nearby).

It's the food supply that I'm working on building now, bit by bit.


Max


Max


----------



## braddy

I was speaking of a tiny heater like this, that with an adapter, will use the larger propane tanks on the BBQ. It is safe indoors.

Keep yourself warm indoors or outdoors with the Mr. Heater Little Buddy Heater. The item comes handy when you are out camping, hunting or picnicking. You can also keep it around the house to stay prepared in case of power outages and natural disasters. Each one connects to a disposable propane cylinder to provide 3,800 BTU per hour. The heater starts with a single button ignition and heats up a 100 sq ft area. Enhancing the safety of this Little Buddy propane heater is its automatic low oxygen shut-off system. It also comes equipped with an accidental tip-over safety shut off provision. The Mr. Heater Little Buddy Heater offers a clean and odor-free operation.


----------



## bluemax_1

CPF members to the rescue again! (at the expense of my wallet/bank account). I like that series of heaters with the oxygen depletion sensors. I would still recommend ensuring that there's a fully functional CO sensor in whichever room this heater is in though.

That said, I added a Mr. Heater Big Buddy to my Amazon cart and will monitor it for the typical Amazon price fluctuations. It's a lot simpler for emergency heating than setting up my forced air heater and I can use those propane tanks for this.


Max


----------



## Poppy

Rick NJ said:


> No need to thank me but you are welcome. It is fun sharing experience - particularly one as traumatic as Sandy.*
> 
> The lack of gasoline took me by surprise also.* If I recall right, it was the one-two punch of refineries damaged and the flooding taking out gas stations. So the few remaining functional stations ran out of gas very soon and resupply did not come due to the damaged infrastructure.
> 
> *The lesson I took from Sandy is, first I need to judge how wide the outage is*. If it was like Sandy, the library and coffee shop was so filled that not all "power visits" resulted in plug-in time - (too many people in line, etc). If that is the case next time, we need to go into deep conservation mode early. In this case, *the budget for duration between visits is 1/2 what I can fill with one visit*. So, if the next visit results in no plug in time, I am not left in darkness.
> 
> *The second lesson is, plan not base on what I have but what I can refill in an hour* - it is all how much I can pump into the storage (SLA, NiMH, Lithium...) So, chargers are critical. The stock 1A charger and stock 300mA charger for my car jump/boost SLA's are useless for this purpose. Solution is the 15V 3A laptop PSU to pump directly into the SLA via CLA till 14V with CLA volt monitor, then switch to 14V 1A power brick. The slow charging NiMH consumer chargers is useless. Even the BC700 (700mA 4AA) is not enough. Solution is the additional serial 9xAA serial "charger" (plugs in my three 3xAA light) via 800mA 14.5V power-brick to supplement.
> 
> For a 1-2 hour "power visit" with approx 1 hour plug in time:*...<SNIP>.*



About a week into the outage (Sandy) I had to travel down to East Brunswick to work for the day. I was surprised that the traffic lights were still out, on highway 18, all the stores were closed, (including all of the gas stations), and there was very little traffic on this otherwise, very busy highway. It was eerie. MOST of the intersections were jug handled traffic controlled with traffic lights, so the police blocked them off with traffic cones. I had to travel miles in the wrong direction until I came to a clover-leaf intersection with an over pass before I could make a U-turn to travel back North.  I hadn't considered that as a possibility.

I think that your observation that FAST CHARGING power storage units may be a necessity. I personally had not considered that "public" recharging stations may limit the time each is permitted to USE the station, but rather that the number of outlets may be limited, and that I would want to bring a power strip, to convert one outlet to many. (Of course there is a limit to the number of power strips one can daisy chain together before the circuit breakers begin to trip.)

I'd like to reiterate my calculations that an average car alternator has a surplus of approximately 900 watts beyond what it takes for the engine to run, that can be used to recharge the CAR battery, if the car battery is used to charge other batteries, or the alternator is used to charge other batteries directly. Therefore, in your case, if you are pulling 200 watts per hour, then your alternator can replace those 200 watt hours in about 15 minutes.

I have four or five 6Volt 4.5 Ah SLA batteries, that I wanted to FAST Charge from my car cigar lighter port, rather than take the 12 hours it would take with the charger that came with my 6V lantern, for each 6 V battery! Someone who knows MUCH MORE about electronics than I, said that I should jumper two of the 6V SLAs together to make 12V, and calculated that I should use a 25W 27 ohm resistor in line with the cigar lighter plug, to reduce the rate at which the power would flow into the SLAs to prevent gassing.

So the concept of being able to FAST charge some batteries so that they can be used to slow charge others is not lost on me. In fact, one may want to consider that using the car battery to slow charge phones, batteries, and power banks, and then running the car engine for short periods of time, as one travels to the food store, or wherever, that the car battery will be FAST charged by the alternator. Even as you mentioned earlier, that running the engine in the driveway may expend less gas than it took to get to a PUBLIC charging station.


----------



## reppans

Do any of these library/coffee shop outlet hogs use multi-outlet extension cords? When I used to lug a laptop around, I found folks hogging airport outlets were always willing to share as long they weren't being put out. You can daisy chain these things for a long time before any amperage issues with today's USB devices. [EDIT... Poppy covered the same as I was typing ]. Anyways lighting is the least of my concern - as a night vision junkie, 0.3/3 lms already represents ~45/45% of my flashlight usage, and a single AA can last me a week's backpacking trip, same for my son (although the Mrs. definitely requires more charging )

Agree on the plumbing, I already installed a drain valve at the low point of my water system, see post #127. 

I have several solar panels that charge my batts directly, output to USB, and to battery banks, so no need to tie a car up in the middle of that, and you really want to minimize the number of conversions. Also have the same thought as StarHalo, does a car batt even have enough start-up power for a home fridge compressor? Still, a 12V solar system would be a good option with one of those 12V car cooler/fridge things, but you'd be much better off using a deep-cycle RV battery for that. 

I also have a Mr Heater Buddy for my camper, and can tap it to my propane system or 20# barbecue tank. I'm not worried about oxygen depletion, but the CO risk still gives me the willies - after all, it is still an open flame in relatively unvented living space. Yes, my RV has a CO detector, but I don't rely my Li-ion protection circuits either - I just can't bare to use it on a longer term basis, but that's just me. Also, propane is still a finite resource like primary batteries, so I'm looking to match my infinite solar/electric rig.

My own thoughts for winter space heating is to set-up camp in the basement - my house interior has hit the upper 30s on one of these outages, but IIRC the basement never got below 50 (and for that matter, in a summer heat wave, it stays cool). Then I have a winter camping tent with a wood burning stove, that I would just use the stove with the flue running out the window, and I have fireproof fabric to seal the window around the flue. I should upgrade to a more substantial stove though, for LT use and larger so it wouldn't need to stoked as often, but I don't want a permanent installation. Wood is an infinite resource around here. 

Sawyer filters are great, and I supplement it with Steripen UV treatment (4AA), and I also have access to streams and lakes. None of my outages have disrupted town water though, although I do admit to filling one bathtub before Sandy hit .

It's very hard for me to stockpile consumables/perishables like food, fuel or water. To build up a decent inventory, minimize the PITA, yet not waste anything (simultaneously), you should cycle it back into use (well, at least food/fuel) on a near expiration basis, and I just don't like consuming "old" food or fuel. I suppose food would be the least burdensome to cycle on a shorter/fresher cycle, but the Mrs. owns the kitchen/pantry real estate and she already thinks preppers are lunatics . Ah, what the heck, I got firearms, hunting bows, air rifles and a deer/small game infestation around my neck of the woods.... we'll do OK .


----------



## Rick NJ

braddy said:


> Since we can charge our batteries in the car, why not just get a large enough solar, car battery panel, to keep it full as you run the battery chargers from the cigarette lighter?
> 
> How about a sine inverter for your car, to top off the house refrigerator, 2 or 3 times a day?
> 
> For a cold house, I would want the plumbing adapted so that I could drain it if I was unable to keep it from freezing. I would want a small camping Propane heater, that puts out 3,000 btu or less, that would take the edge off of one small room, and I would be prepared to move all my canned goods, and liquid household goods into that room, along with any other freeze sensitive goods, and prefer to have lots of candles for lighting, during winter.
> 
> 
> These ideas work for people with little money, someone with some money to spend can easily solve any of these problems.



With money, you can have a winter home and a summer home in different geographic areas. For most normal working-stiff, trouble with planning for emergency is - those are *money spend on things that you hope you will never use!* That is why rather than purchasing a lot of stuff, I use stuff at hand with minimal purchase.

*Solar is unlikely to work for winter storms*. In the winter, there was little sun to begin with. In a storm big enough to bring down the power, the sun is not going to be seen for days.

Then, there is the bigger problem:ice and snow. During the Halloween storm, the "fight" against the elements to get home was memorable so I recall well. There was at least 6 inches of snow on my roof on top of an inch of ice. The snow and ice will cover up roof top solar panels if any. *Roof top ice takes weeks to months to melt away* and it is rather common that new ice build up on top of old layer. I don't recall how the ice was for Sandy.

What I do consider is a small (1-2 feet square) portable solar panel *stored inside the house* to take out during emergency. That I can be rather sure it will be ice free and movable to capture the limited winter/storm sun.

*This one below is not light related but useful experience to share. I did not know and I ignored it for a few hours while damage grew.
*
I actually forgot about one 3-5 days outage post Sandy 2014 season (Oct 2013 to March 2014). I don't need a propane heater since I had gas oven for cooking - or survival heat. But without HVAC, oven heat is not enough to prevent *pipes from freezing* (and then burst) in the basement.

Good and bad thing was, water does not rush out the burst until you have heat - to melt the ice blocking the burst pipe. *Since it was post power/heat return, It did not occur to me what happened at all!*

It was after the outage, on a warm 40F day 5pm when the ice in the pipe melted enough for water to rush out. BANG and then the sound of water. Well, I though someone dropped something in the bath room, and then flushed the toilet. I actually ignored it and dozed off.

I finally realized what occurred. I shut off the main valve and hunt for the burst. *The nail/pipe/wire detector from HomeDepot got me to the wrong spot*. After opening the wall, there was no pipe there!! It took me a moment of thought and it occur to me to try my DMM to determine relative moisture - least relative resistance at wettest spot. *My UT61E got me to the main burst within 2-3 inches*. After capping the big one, I found the other smaller bursts - three total. I was able to cap and isolate the burst by the end of the next day. It took me till late (last) summer to fully trace and repair all the pipes and found good spots to install additional stop valve for winter. 

So, two lessons here to share:
*1. Pipe burst may not be realized much later!
2. DMM is rather useful in determining where the burst could be.*


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## braddy

It was the small charger that I was talking about. ""Since we can charge our batteries in the car, why not just get a large enough solar, car battery panel, to keep it full as you run the battery chargers from the cigarette lighter?"" i use them in my cars that sit for a long time.

Look at the post above you about installing a drain **** in the basement.


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## Rick NJ

Poppy said:


> About a week into the outage (Sandy) I had to travel down to East Brunswick to work for the day. I was surprised that the traffic lights were still out, on highway 18, all the stores were closed, (including all of the gas stations), and there was very little traffic on this otherwise, very busy highway. It was eerie.
> ...
> I'd like to reiterate my calculations that an average car alternator has a surplus of approximately 900 watts beyond what it takes for the engine to run, that can be used to recharge the CAR battery, if the car battery is used to charge other batteries, or the alternator is used to charge other batteries directly. Therefore, in your case, if you are pulling 200 watts per hour, then your alternator can replace those 200 watt hours in about 15 minutes.
> ....
> 
> So the concept of being able to FAST charge some batteries so that they can be used to slow charge others is not lost on me. In fact, one may want to consider that using the car battery to slow charge phones, batteries, and power banks, and then running the car engine for short periods of time, as one travels to the food store, or wherever, that the car battery will be FAST charged by the alternator. Even as you mentioned earlier, that running the engine in the driveway may expend less gas than it took to get to a PUBLIC charging station.



*Eerie is a good word to describe the atmosphere, isn't it.*

I too came to the conclusion car charging is the way to go. Thus, in my initial post' I wrote "Why drive to the library at all... I could idle on the drive way for less time than driving to/from the library and charge the SLA's..."

In my post-Sandy "do better next time" analysis, I took a quick "looking into". My alternator can pump out extra 50A easy (based on Air Conditioner power use alone), and car start-boost SLA's is designed to do well over 100A. I called this my "*open hood charging method*". (I give names to my method to organize my thought). 

In weeks after Sandy, my experimentation (using the starter-boost pack's 5-level LED battery guage) 30 minutes of that open hood charging beats 1 hour on the wall plug at 3A. Calling this "open hood method" in my planning reminds me that it cannot be used until rain stops. Besides making those 3AA "forever lights" after Sandy, I also made a 10AWG 3feet long jumper for my 400W UPS to charge that as well. (That UPS' inverter doesn't have enough heat sink to give me 400W continuous, however, I can have a quick max 10 minute burst of 400W if needed, and wait till it cools).

That said, a two hour "power visit" is prefer when wall plug is available. Apart from internet availability there, I can charge my 5 laptops+phone at the same time but just one in the car. The quick hi-mA stuff gives me good supplement to my SLA and AA's. I got "good" by the third power-visit: Start the car, plug in the inverter to the 8AA charger, plug in the CLA phone chargers to begin charge in the car... all before I even pull out of the drive way to the library...


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## Rick NJ

braddy said:


> It was the small charger that I was talking about. ""Since we can charge our batteries in the car, why not just get a large enough solar, car battery panel, to keep it full as you run the battery chargers from the cigarette lighter?"" i use them in my cars that sit for a long time.
> 
> Look at the post above you about installing a drain **** in the basement.



Naa.. solar wont work. You probably missed my other reply that "a storm enough to cause power outage likely will not leave you with sunny days immediately." White-ice (snow+refrozen snow) covers my roof top for weeks after each >3" snow fall so roof top solar wont work. Smaller solar will not be enough to run HVAC for heat. Open-hood charging (use car to charge the car-starter-booster SLA) is quick and efficient and more than adequate for lights.

As to "installing a drain **** in the basement", great minds think alike. One of the reason for the long repair was tracing the pipes too add stop valves and drain caps, and I have thermometer installed in few places in the basement. I got it "all worked out" and next long outage will test my theory.

I am lucky that natural gas supply is underground has not failed - not once. So, next long outage, when basement hits 32F, I will use the hot water more liberally. Take more showers, fill up the bath tubs with hot water in late evening... Using hot water kicks on my natural gas water heater, and that natural gas burning warms the basement. I think once a day tub fill would be enough but I'll know next long-outage. It is wasting water. For both the Halloween storm and Sandy (and even lesser snow storms), local flooding was a cause of concern and a problem. It is silly to worry about wasting water during a flood.


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## eh4

Rick NJ said:


> *Eerie is a good word to describe the atmosphere, isn't it.*
> 
> I too came to the conclusion car charging is the way to go. Thus, in my initial post' I wrote "Why drive to the library at all... I could idle on the drive way for less time than driving to/from the library and charge the SLA's..."
> 
> In my post-Sandy "do better next time" analysis, I took a quick "looking into". My alternator can pump out extra 50A easy (based on Air Conditioner power use alone), and car start-boost SLA's is designed to do well over 100A. I called this my "*open hood charging method*". (I give names to my method to organize my thought).
> 
> In weeks after Sandy, my experimentation (using the starter-boost pack's 5-level LED battery guage) 30 minutes of that open hood charging beats 1 hour on the wall plug at 3A. Calling this "open hood method" in my planning reminds me that it cannot be used until rain stops. Besides making those 3AA "forever lights" after Sandy, I also made a 10AWG 3feet long jumper for my 400W UPS to charge that as well. (That UPS' inverter doesn't have enough heat sink to give me 400W continuous, however, I can have a quick max 10 minute burst of 400W if needed, and wait till it cools).
> 
> That said, a two hour "power visit" is prefer when wall plug is available. Apart from internet availability there, I can charge my 5 laptops+phone at the same time but just one in the car. The quick hi-mA stuff gives me good supplement to my SLA and AA's. I got "good" by the third power-visit: Start the car, plug in the inverter to the 8AA charger, plug in the CLA phone chargers to begin charge in the car... all before I even pull out of the drive way to the library...



-a high charge rate LiFePO4 battery would be ideal for this. So now I'm thinking that putting the brackets and terminals in the trunk would be good. You might carry one around all the time, but in an extended power outage put several on charge in the trunk at the same time.


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## Rick NJ

eh4 said:


> -a high charge rate LiFePO4 battery would be ideal for this. So now I'm thinking that putting the brackets and terminals in the trunk would be good. You might carry one around all the time, but in an extended power outage put several on charge in the trunk at the same time.



Yeah, but as I said in earlier reply - emergency stuff are stuff you hope you never use. So I don't want to spend much $ in it. My first choice is use what I got at hand and adapt it for emergency.

Another thing, I am chicken! I do not have a comfort factor with high-current lithium cells yet. I want something familiar and perhaps more forgiving particularly when I am under higher stress and disoriented. Those severe storm and outage tends to have that very effect on people. As far as lithium cells go, using my recovered 18650 cells for single cell lighting is where I stop for now.


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## Norman

Rick NJ said:


> I am lucky that natural gas supply is underground has not failed - not once. So, next long outage, when basement hits 32F, I will use the hot water more liberally. Take more showers, fill up the bath tubs with hot water in late evening... Using hot water kicks on my natural gas water heater, and that natural gas burning warms the basement. I think once a day tub fill would be enough but I'll know next long-outage. It is wasting water.



During the last winter power outage, the local paper carried a story about somebody who ran hot water through a garden hose from a basement faucet, and snaked the hose around the house and drained elsewhere to keep the place livable. I presume you wouldn't have to have the water running at a very high rate, so you likely wouldn't use a massive amount of water this way.

Also, by filling the tub with hot water, then soaking yourself once it cools down a bit would also be a nice way to keep the body warm too. Btw, don't let the house go down to freezing before taking action, as the colder spots in the house could already be below freezing by that time. Oh, and this may not help the cold water lines, so don't forget to drip a cold water faucet or two.


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## braddy

Actually I did miss that this was only about winter, in harsh conditions, I didn't realize that Hurricane sandy cut off the sun for so long. Where I grew up in hurricane country on the gulf, we would still have gotten some benefit from having a solar charger to help maintain the car battery, while we were charging batteries out of the cigarette lighter plug.

The flashlight battery charger doesn't draw much, and the solar helps make up for what it is using, if it wasn't, then running the car a little bit would help keep the car battery healthy.

For you guys who have natural gas water heaters, all you have to do for heat, is screw a fitting onto the line supplying your water heater, and pick up a natural gas space heater, either new for $100.00, or get a used one off of Ebay. That is much better than wasting all that water, and stressing your water heater, and sending so much wasted heat out of the water heater vent.


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## rpm00

Natural gas space heater... That's an idea I hadn't thought of. I have a natural gas fireplace but without electricity it doesn't do much since there's no blower.


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## LetThereBeLight!

For what it's worth, the solar chargers that Suntactics makes (there are three) charge up even it is cloudy and their website explains how they accomplish this. I own one and can attest to it. But the panels have to be of a certain high quality, which Suntactics' chargers are. (By the way, I have no fiduciary relationship with them or Aspect Solar. Like everyone else here, I praise products that I find to be noteworthy, reliable, more than decent quality.)


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## braddy

rpm00 said:


> Natural gas space heater... That's an idea I hadn't thought of. I have a natural gas fireplace but without electricity it doesn't do much since there's no blower.




So you could have a NG space heater for the basement for dire emergencies, where it was terribly cold, and you could also have a space heater and an extra gas flex up in the living room, that you could run off of the fireplace gas connection, buy a 72 inch gas flex so that you could set the heater down on the living room floor.


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## Rick NJ

braddy said:


> So you could have a NG space heater for the basement for dire emergencies, where it was terribly cold, and you could also have a space heater and an extra gas flex up in the living room, that you could run off of the fireplace gas connection, buy a 72 inch gas flex so that you could set the heater down on the living room floor.



Ventilation is a major issue as CO could be deadly.

With the basement, I can a small heater with the ventilation connected to the gas water heater's chimney. That is on my "todo" should winter outages gets really bad (frequent).


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## AVService

Well I have had an interesting week with my power going out on 3 separate occasions 3 nights in a row.
I had just bought several Lanterns earlier on Sunday and then that night we had big storms that knocked power out for a day.
This repeated for the next 2 days as power was restored only to be knocked out later during new storms!

The Siege worked great on low and I also really like the Red mode for being in the dark but the big surprise for me was that I really found it more useful in the house to just TailStand my 2AA MDC and bounce off the ceiling every time.

The lanterns work as they should but the light is really distracting and glares from all around the light. Even if I hung them from the ceiling the lantern output was just distracting and ruined my low light vision the whole time too.

The bounced light though was entirely diffused and just lit the room but the light itself was never annoying or distracting at all.
I used it n LowLow which is supposedly 3 Lumens and it was plenty of light for me to do everything I had to do.

Lots of food for thoght!


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## bluemax_1

AVService said:


> Well I have had an interesting week with my power going out on 3 separate occasions 3 nights in a row.
> I had just bought several Lanterns earlier on Sunday and then that night we had big storms that knocked power out for a day.
> This repeated for the next 2 days as power was restored only to be knocked out later during new storms!
> 
> The Siege worked great on low and I also really like the Red mode for being in the dark but the big surprise for me was that I really found it more useful in the house to just TailStand my 2AA MDC and bounce off the ceiling every time.
> 
> The lanterns work as they should but the light is really distracting and glares from all around the light. Even if I hung them from the ceiling the lantern output was just distracting and ruined my low light vision the whole time too.
> 
> The bounced light though was entirely diffused and just lit the room but the light itself was never annoying or distracting at all.
> I used it n LowLow which is supposedly 3 Lumens and it was plenty of light for me to do everything I had to do.
> 
> Lots of food for thoght!



Yep, for folks living alone, converting to becoming a low-light junkie works well. It almost becomes addictive to see how little light you can get by on.

The issue is when you have little children and/or the elderly. Old eyes don't tend to be as light sensitive and young children are comforted by higher average lumen levels. And with both, potential safety issues with lower light levels is also a consideration.


Max


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## Rick NJ

AVService said:


> Well I have had an interesting week with my power going out on 3 separate occasions 3 nights in a row.
> I had just bought several Lanterns earlier on Sunday and then that night we had big storms that knocked power out for a day.
> This repeated for the next 2 days as power was restored only to be knocked out later during new storms!
> 
> The Siege worked great on low and I also really like the Red mode for being in the dark but the big surprise for me was that I really found it more useful in the house to just TailStand my 2AA MDC and bounce off the ceiling every time.
> 
> The lanterns work as they should but the light is really distracting and glares from all around the light. Even if I hung them from the ceiling the lantern output was just distracting and ruined my low light vision the whole time too.
> 
> The bounced light though was entirely diffused and just lit the room but the light itself was never annoying or distracting at all.
> I used it n LowLow which is supposedly 3 Lumens and it was plenty of light for me to do everything I had to do.
> 
> Lots of food for thoght!



Regarding diffusion:

I use the bulb with 12 5050-SMD, each SMD has 3 LED, so the "bulb" has 36 LEDs total and the light came out rather well diffused. I don't have an issue with diffusion with these, but when looking at it "head on" it will disrupt "night vision". Now there is also the 15 smd5050 version which would have 45 LEDs.

The ones I use look like this: (note, this is just to show bulb type and is not an endorsement. This may be a good seller, or not. I simply don't know the seller)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4X-12V-cool...960?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d534c1688

The flatness of these kind of bulbs allows me to "install" by taping it on the wall during emergency. I generally tape it up at just above head level and a long "speaker" wire connects the bulb to the car starter/booster SLA's CLA output. I use the G4 because it is the same pin spacing as regular PCB jumper pins.

There is also the 3528-SMD with lot more SMDs but each SMD has only 1 LED. I prefer the 5050's compactness.

Rick


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## more_vampires

bluemax_1 said:


> Yep, for folks living alone, converting to becoming a low-light junkie works well. It almost becomes addictive to see how little light you can get by on.
> The issue is when you have little children and/or the elderly. Old eyes don't tend to be as light sensitive and young children are comforted by higher average lumen levels. And with both, potential safety issues with lower light levels is also a consideration



Excellent point, sir. A single individual can become night adapted with his particular light and setup, but only under the proper conditions for that setup.

Many a slip between cup and lip.

Myself, I am a fan of low, "low-low," firefly and moonlight usage. Simple fact is if you change the dynamics of the situation, a different lighting solution is required. Though the minimalist milliamphour usage is quite effective in going months and months between recharge, the fact of the matter is groups will have massive wattage sinking into area lighting. The needs of the individual can easily be addressed, vampire style, in the early 21st century.

Where the real games begin, I think, is in both the minimums and the maximums possible while retaining flexibility.

As an old Italian physicist friend and I used to converse, the interest is in the extreme points possible. Maximum draw, certainly. Never forget maximum efficiency, capacity, or other design elements. "Where are you going to get more?" ...so to speak?

Many designs comprimise safety for the "biggest and best." One must know which and why in a universe where all things are possible.

My humble opinion, ladies and gentlemen.

Me, I just like awesome flashlights. Oh well.


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## Poppy

Regarding the use of a generator during an outage, and one that requires HEAT for the house.

Please be aware, that I am NOT an electrician, nor am I particularly knowledgeable about building and construction codes.

Unfortunately, during outages, many people have generators that have not been properly installed to power their house, and use a dangerous, and illegal method of back-feeding their electrical panel. I am here to advocate against that. 

Those who have a whole house generator, that starts automatically when the power goes out will have a "transfer switch" installed. This will be installed by a licensed electrician, and will provide a pretty seamless/automatic switching from the electric company power to your generated power. You can google "Generator Transfer Switch Kits" they are available at lowes and homedepot to get an idea of costs, and options. Some are manual, others automatic.

There are also manual switches available that are less costly to buy and to install, but are not automatic. Here is an example of a Panel Interlock Kit.  I believe that these are UL listed and meet electrical code requirements, but I don't know for sure. Be sure of code requirements in your area.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Regarding how to power a furnace during an outage.*

I have seen a number of youtube videos showing how to break the power feed line to the furnace, turn it into an outlet, and then install a short 14 gauge extension cord and male plug into the furnace. Then one keeps the furnace plugged into the very nearby outlet. IF the power goes, out, then one can unplug the furnace from the outlet and plug it into an extension cord powered by the generator.

This seems reasonable to me, and safer than back feeding the panel, but according to this linked poster even this is technically a violation of the electrical code. He claims though that it is a violation that is often overlooked. I don't know. But if something goes wrong, I suppose that there is a good possibility that insurance claims may be denied. 

After Sandy hit, my generator traveled around the state to four different locations, helping one family and then the next. Fortunately there wasn't a need for heat.

However in a SHTF situation, during winter months, I can only imagine that a 12 gauge or 14 gauge pigtail will travel with my generator.


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## markr6

Dang this stuff is confusing! I'd probably just load my backpack and go "camping" in my back yard no matter the time of year


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## AVService

bluemax_1 said:


> Yep, for folks living alone, converting to becoming a low-light junkie works well. It almost becomes addictive to see how little light you can get by on.
> 
> The issue is when you have little children and/or the elderly. Old eyes don't tend to be as light sensitive and young children are comforted by higher average lumen levels. And with both, potential safety issues with lower light levels is also a consideration.
> 
> 
> Max



I never said I was alone nor was this my point in any way?
The idea I was trying to get across was that indirect light seems to me a lot more comforting and easy to live with than the glare at any level from a point source of light in my eyes.

It turned out that the difference between the 3 lumen setting and the 25 lumen setting of the MDC bounced off the ceiling was pretty minimal and I will always pick a lower output if workable to conserve battery.
Contrast that with any level from the lanterns just blinding me if I looked in that direction ad mostly with colder color crushing light too.


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## more_vampires

Lantern glare has been a design flaw since the advent of lanterns. It bugs me too. You are not alone, sir.


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## StarHalo

AVService said:


> indirect light seems to me a lot more comforting and easy to live with than the glare at any level from a point source of light in my eyes.



Ceiling-bounced warm tint, ~100 lumens for the room, ~25 lumens for a couple, ~2 lumens if it's just you, that's the life..


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## bluemax_1

AVService said:


> I never said I was alone nor was this my point in any way?
> The idea I was trying to get across was that indirect light seems to me a lot more comforting and easy to live with than the glare at any level from a point source of light in my eyes.
> 
> It turned out that the difference between the 3 lumen setting and the 25 lumen setting of the MDC bounced off the ceiling was pretty minimal and I will always pick a lower output if workable to conserve battery.
> Contrast that with any level from the lanterns just blinding me if I looked in that direction ad mostly with colder color crushing light too.



Yes, glare from lanterns is an unfortunate side effect I've had to accept and deal with from back in the day when my dad used Coleman lanterns for camping and power outages. Now THOSE puppies would really blind you for some time if you looked directly at them.

Hmmmm... maybe that might be why I'm not bothered too much by the glare from most newer LED lanterns? They tend to try to make some concessions to reducing direct glare. That coupled with the habit of not looking at the lantern ingrained from years of using Coleman lanterns possibly makes a difference person to person.

I also really like that square/flat Energizer 8xAA lantern posted in this thread. That thing is even better than the round Siege and UST style lanterns when it comes to controlling\reducing glare.

While I also like ceiling bounced flashlights and think they work great indoors with light colored ceilings, if I look at the flashlight pointed upwards, it has glare too, and is potentially a brighter point source for the same average lumen levels as the newer LED lanterns with the diffusers. I've simply learned not to look at those either, but I certainly wouldn't say that one is a source of glare while looking right at it and the other is not. 

When using a lantern, I prefer placing them higher up as they cast light over a wide area. In fact, hanging them upside down from existing light fixtures works just fine. I don't look directly at the bulbs in the lighting fixtures when the power is on so not looking at a lantern in the same location is 2nd nature.

Likewise, I prefer putting a ceiling bounced flashlight above seated eye level (eg. not on the coffee table where I'd be looking in the general direction anytime I wanted to pick something up from the table).

The point I meant to make though, is that 3 lumens ceiling bounced is a little low for most young children to be comfortable in for extended periods of time, and is also potentially too low for older folks who have reduced night vision acuity.

There are also many other factors that come into play. How long is the power outage? Hours? Days? A week or more? What season is it and how much sunlight are we getting? If we're experiencing bad weather (and/or it's winter) with extended hours with very little daylight/sunlight, while low lumens could be a 'fun' experience for small children for a few hours or even a day, extended darkness and gloominess tends to have a greater effect on them than adults, so I have enough lighting to take that into consideration (as well as considering the night visual acuity of any elderly).

In the summer time, and with ample sunlight, it's possible to get by with hardly any artificial light at all with just opening the blinds and letting daylight in anytime between 6 a.m. to 9 p.m. and just going to bed earlier.

On my own though, even under conditions with little natural light due to weather, or season, all I would need is a headlamp as that would light up only what I need, thus conserving power. With either the very young or old as well though, I find that higher total lumen levels tend to have a greater safety and comfort factor.


Max


----------



## more_vampires

bluemax_1 said:


> When using a lantern, I prefer placing them higher up as they cast light over a wide area.



Oh yes, this. Very much. With a crew of 4 people in a primitive camp with wooden picnic bench on a still Louisiana night at Tickfaw state park, a single tea candle did all that we needed. The trick was placing it on top of a post (about 7 feet tall) nearly perfectly next to the picnic bench.

There was zero ambient lighting where we were staked on an overcast night. We had worse problems with the mosquitoes, except for those that believed me on the 100% DEET spray.

Great runtime, neutral tint (as far as candles go.) One of them brought some overkill blasters and said he'd probably need to recharge. Nah. Tea candle. One of them.


----------



## reppans

more_vampires said:


> Lantern glare has been a design flaw since the advent of lanterns. It bugs me too. You are not alone, sir.



Yup, me too.. Put a lantern off to the side so it's not in your immediate view and you waste half the lumens behind you. That's what I like about using directional diffusers.


----------



## AVService

All true and some things I didn't really consider until the power went out for real and I had to get light right away.

I had bought a few of those Everedy Fusion lights the week before in both the telescoping 4aa version and the flooding bigger 4-8aa version and earlier thae day of the outage I had brought both versions of the Siege home so my timing was as good as it could have been I guess?

So I did try all 4 lanterns before switching to the MDC bounced off the ceiling and mainly just so I could of course. The lanterns were all up above eye level either hanging or o top of some giant speakers and there is of course a lot of wasted light depending on where they are placed.

I also remembered the Coleman Lanterns of my youth at the time but at least these new lights are quiet and run cool to the touch!

The next day I snagged a UST 30 Day Lantern and was able to try that one that night when the power went out again and much to my surprise and excitement the UST is actually a warm tint lantern!
So I far prefer the UST if using white light to the others but the Siege was terrific when using Red which I had never really tried before in a setting this big.

The Fusion lights are interesting as they do dim over a pretty decent range and allow for longer run time which is great but I find the Fusion panels not as nice to have around as the Siege or UST method of diffusing the light.

I guess a Lamp Shade is really what it would take to make the lanterns like more what we are used to inside but I can imagine further obvious issues trying to get that working too.

Anyway I do think I was the only one having fun during the 3 nights power was out and my Neighbors did ask why they kept seeing different colors and shadows the entire time too?

Wha!?!:shakehead


----------



## more_vampires

Sir, i eagerly wait the next outage....

We can do a lot of good.


----------



## Poppy

*Power tool batteries as a power bank, light or radio source*
A couple of weeks ago I bought a drill with two lithium battery packs. They are 18V (20.35V fully charged) so they must have 5- 18650s in them. The high capacity ones would have 10! So with all that stored energy, I wanted a way to USE it in the event of an outage. 

Fortunately, Ryobi, Milwaukee, Makita, and many of the other major tool manufacturer brands make a line of lithium powered tools that run on their batteries. I bought the Ryobi One+ LED Lantern $20. I am sure that they each have a lantern, or at least a flashlight (or radio) that'll run on their respective batteries. The Ryobi radio $40 has a USB output port that can be used to charge phones, etc. Millwaukee, has a USB port adapter $29. I modified my lantern by adding a USB port $1.50 

*McGyvering a USB port*
With a pair of jumper wires, some electrical tape (or some rubber bands) you can connect one of those "plug into the car's 12V cigar lights/power port" USB adapters to your power tool battery. You just clip onto the positive and negative inputs for the adapter, and come up with a way connect the other end of the jumpers to the battery. 

The Ryobi batteries have the connectors on the outside, so rubber bands or electrical tape would work. The Milwaukee, and Makita batteries are different, and maybe bending bare wires around the edge of a match book cover (piece of cardboard) or piece of plastic, and then shoving the wire into the connector would work. I suppose that you could actually get a spade, crimp on, connector, the right size, and make a prettier connector.


----------



## more_vampires

Poppy said:


> I suppose that you could actually get a spade, crimp on, connector, the right size, and make a prettier connector.



I sell those: 1 male/female for $1.15 retail. They come in different sizes, mine won't fit all spade terminals as they're for a specific application.


----------



## Poppy

more_vampires said:


> I sell those: 1 male/female for $1.15 retail. They come in different sizes, mine won't fit all spade terminals as they're for a specific application.




LOL... yeah I have them in a couple of different sizes. idk... it seems that I rarely have the size that I need  

At any rate, I tested one of those USB adapters that I got, at the dollar store for $1.50 and it states 12V to 24V input. And son of a gun, it dropped the 20.35 volts from my battery down to 5.05 volts.

They're available as multi-port units, and in 1 amp and 2.1 amp outputs (apple compatible or not).


----------



## Taz80

Milwaukee has a lantern and a speaker, (for mp3 players etc.) for their M12 system that have a USB port for charging stuff. I've used it to charge my RS20, it seems to work well.


----------



## braddy

Rick NJ said:


> Ventilation is a major issue as CO could be deadly.
> 
> With the basement, I can a small heater with the ventilation connected to the gas water heater's chimney. That is on my "todo" should winter outages gets really bad (frequent).



There are plenty of vent-less natural gas space heaters. Here is an example, "Mr. Heater 30,000 BTU Natural Gas Blue Flame Vent Free Heater".


----------



## eh4

Taz80 said:


> Milwaukee has a lantern and a speaker, (for mp3 players etc.) for their M12 system that have a USB port for charging stuff. I've used it to charge my RS20, it seems to work well.



I'd really like to know the meaning of the Milwaukie Electric battery contacts, I believe there are 5 of them. 
A circuit diagram would be nice, I've looked unsuccessfully.
I've got their M18 hammer drill with two batteries, great tool, highly recommended.
I'd like to understand how the protection circuit works, how to draw current from the battery without damaging it or accidentally triggering a fail safe.


----------



## WarRaven

braddy said:


> There are plenty of vent-less natural gas space heaters. Here is an example, "Mr. Heater 30,000 BTU Natural Gas Blue Flame Vent Free Heater".


Works like a charm, hard to find in stock.
Love love mine.


----------



## braddy

Some of us grew up in bedrooms with one of these old style space heaters sitting on the floor, with open flames, and a rubber hose pushed onto the gas **** at the wall, and pushed onto the heater itself, not screwed on, but simply pushed on, and of course being in the way, they were moved around a lot.


----------



## BloodLust

My Hello Kitty Eneloops!
Testing a 2nd gen Xtar XP1 charger. It should put less stress on the solar panels than the 4 bay Guide 10 Plus.
Will try the solar panels on 16340 and 14500s since the XP1 can charge both NiMh and Li-Ions.


----------



## more_vampires

BloodLust said:


> My Hello Kitty Eneloops!



LOL! <3


----------



## WarRaven

more_vampires said:


> LOL! <3



What are you, jealous like the rest of us?


----------



## more_vampires

There was a fanimutation video (translation: super bizarre flash video) claiming Hello Kitty was a natural renewable energy source. (The Jamez Bond video.)

LOL IT ARE TRUE!


----------



## BinDerSmokDat

We've been lucky, approaching 16 years in our house and the longest power outage was 9 hours...from 10pm to 7am the next day.
We called it a night and the power came on just as I finished cooking breakfast outside on the gas grill the next morning.
Maybe in total we've had 8-9 power outages in 16 years, with 90% less than an hour.
We didn't even lose power during SuperStorm Sandy.
But we do camp and spend time outdoors at night.

I will posit that you don't need anything more than a few inexpensive hand held flashlights, a brick of tea lights and a brick of alkalines.

Even for extended power outages a brick of alkalines will handle much your lighting duties.
Their long shelf life means no "D'oh" moment when the lights go out and you realize you didn't charge your batteries.
A bulk pack of tealights is also a no brainer. You can get 100 for $40. The wife must have a few dozen in various forms.
You can scatter them all over the house for cheap, including setting them on things like the ottoman/stool/corner of the bed so you don't stub your toe.

Also, I get that coupon for a FREE LED light from Harbor Freight every so often, so I have like 8-9 of them things around the house/garage.
Even on cheap non-name batteries they stay lit for more than 24 hours straight.
On good alkaline batteries the perform even better and provide "mood lighting" for up to 60 hours.

We have about 2 dozen solar outdoor lights of various types in the yard that keep the walkways lit and add some security.
In a pinch they could be brought indoors at night and charged outdoors during the day.

Or in other words, I wouldn't need to do anything different than I do right now.
I won't be able to light up something suspicious at 300 yards with this approach, but it's simple and incorporated into my everyday life.
No prep needed.


----------



## braddy

Most of us prefer better quality flashlights, which is why we are members of this forum, and most of us were happy to get away from alkaline batteries that leak and ruin our flashlights and cameras, and other electronics.

I would prefer to be not be working on things/boarding up windows/making repairs/, reading, and cooking, with nothing but that free flashlight and candles.

Some of us have endured 12 day blackouts from hurricanes, and have had the need for better flashlights/headlamps/lanterns during the storm, and feel better having flashlights that are better than the cheap, bare minimum available that I consider even inadequate for our car flashlights, it is why we signed up here at this flashlight forum.


----------



## more_vampires

Agree braddy. Well said! The right tool makes all the difference.


----------



## bluemax_1

braddy said:


> Most of us prefer better quality flashlights, which is why we are members of this forum, and most of us were happy to get away from alkaline batteries that leak and ruin our flashlights and cameras, and other electronics.
> 
> I would prefer to be not be working on things/boarding up windows/making repairs/, reading, and cooking, with nothing but that free flashlight and candles.
> 
> Some of us have endured 12 day blackouts from hurricanes, and have had the need for better flashlights/headlamps/lanterns during the storm, and feel better having flashlights that are better than the cheap, bare minimum available that I consider even inadequate for our car flashlights, it is why we signed up here at this flashlight forum.



Not to mention the earlier discussions of the hazards of having fire sources like lit tea lights scattered all over the house.


Max


----------



## Rider57

Ive been reading through the posts and thinking of my preparness level. I think BinDerSmokDat has a very good strategy. 

I have a solar panel and 2 usb li-ion chargers, in an emergency i would be able to keep my good lights charged. The past 3 days here its been cloudy, rendering my solar panel useless. If this was an emergency i wouldnt be able to rely on my panel and rechargable batterys, instead id rely on lights with alkaline batterys. This problem becomes even more apparent for people in hurricane zones as their lights might go out and stay cloudy for days at a time. AAs are dirt cheap in bulk and with Panasonics 10 year powerlock they make a good "reliable" backup. 

Candles and tea lights are great to have around as well, conserves your batterys for outdoor use and a few light up a room just fine. Imho putting your trust in just a couple high end lights can prove to be foolish in an extended emergency situation. 

I think the differences in tactics and opinions span from the differences in comfort level when it comes to the amount and type of light we need. I am perfectly comfortable lighting a few candles and saving my batterys, where others would feel better with 400 lumen light on a ceiling bounce position. 

I dont see the difference between reading with a 1 AA flashlight putting out 1 lumen or reading with a Nitecore MH20 on low putting out 1 lumen. 

In the end if it works and gets you through it then its great. 

As for me heres what i would have in an emergency (stuff i currently own) 

20w solar panel
4 powerbanks (32,000mah total) 
2 3AAA ultrafires
3 SK68s
1 coast hp1
Nitecore MH20 and EA11
Candles
GE 400 lumen lantern
4 AA lantern 1$
Glow sticks

Id like to have some good 2AA lights in my inventory just havent found any i like yet(need to ask here for recommendations)


----------



## braddy

I will always prefer quality flashlights over junk, and prefer the options of suiting the light to the need whether hand held, headlamp, or lantern, and I prefer rechargeable batteries to leaky, one use batteries. If an emergency stretched into weeks, then I can recharge with solar, or take my house battery chargers out to the car, since some of them use 12v cigarette lighter plugs, or even charge in areas that have electricty.

Candles are fine during winter and I keep some, but in hot climates who wants to use candles when the AC and fans are off? There is also danger with using candles, not to mention they are only good indoors. besides, it's just as easy to have batteries, as it is to have candles.

I do keep alkalines, just as I also have some cheap led flashlights, but those are loaners and giveaways to non-CPF member neighbors during blackouts, not for me.

I also want a flashlight that is adequate for the security needs of protecting my property, and the free flashlight from HF, isn't it


----------



## Poppy

> Also, I get that coupon for a FREE LED light from Harbor Freight every so often, so I have like 8-9 of them things around the house/garage.
> Even on cheap non-name batteries they stay lit for more than 24 hours straight.
> On good alkaline batteries the perform even better and provide "mood lighting" for up to 60 hours.



I remember when those 9 led lights came out. Oh boy, did I think, they were "The cat's meow!" I bought a few of them, and more to give away. Eventually, they all failed with very little use. 

One of the reasons I started this thread is so that people would evaluate their own needs, and actually determine how many alkaline batteries they will need and/or how many rechargeables they will need to recharge, and how often, for any particular amount of time, and by which means will they use to recharge them. Personally I like redundancy. As braddy already mentioned, some 110v-120v chargers can plug into a car cigar lighter/power port. While I don't have solar, I do have a generator, and a few cars; so I have two means to recharge my batteries.

I'll agree that alkalines, (stored OUTSIDE of electronic components) may well be a part of one's power plan. I just checked, and I have 16 D cell alkalines stored next to my two D cell lanterns. Each three or four D cells will deliver between 140-40 lumens for a week of 7 hour nights, or there-abouts. They'll typically start out high, and drop down, this is dependent upon the driver. At any rate, each D cell has the same capacity as about 12 AAA batteries! Therefore, one lantern with 3 D cells has the capacity of about 36 AAA batteries. 

I quoted the above portion of the above post, because I don't think that the run-times stated are accurate. Or if they are... the lights would be single digit lumens, and then sub-lumen. I'd like to suggest that each person does a run-time test, of any light that he considers a part of his outage plan, so that he can better estimate how many batteries he should have on hand.

BenDerSmokDat made a good point of bringing outdoor solar lights into the house if needed. That shows flexible thinking... I like that  It seems that he is happy with a few low lumen lights. That's fine, it just doesn't work for everyone, so, again, you need to see how many lumens it takes to make EVERYONE in your family comfortable, because ONE unhappy camper can ruin the experience for everyone!


----------



## eh4

I can't understand the insistence of Paklite to continue to sell their little cracker jack lights for so much money, otherwise I'd have bought Dozens for friends and family. As it is I bought One, a few years ago. 
Even so, one of their lights, plus a nearly dead, retired smoke detector battery (good idea to have a spare? ) will easily see any family through an extended power outage. -for the regular household needs; you still need other lights for momentary emergencies and for personal missions, to the bathroom, outside, etc. But the long duration, getting along and functioning in a family room needs for lighting could be managed with a Paklite or two and a few old batteries.


----------



## AVService

eh4 said:


> I can't understand the insistence of Paklite to continue to sell their little cracker jack lights for so much money, otherwise I'd have bought Dozens for friends and family. As it is I bought One, a few years ago.
> Even so, one of their lights, plus a nearly dead, retired smoke detector battery (good idea to have a spare? ) will easily see any family through an extended power outage. -for the regular household needs; you still need other lights for momentary emergencies and for personal missions, to the bathroom, outside, etc. But the long duration, getting along and functioning in a family room needs for lighting could be managed with a Paklite or two and a few old batteries.



I got several SafeLites just exactly for this reason a few years ago and I bet they are out of business now as they were not pricey enough?
They are the same basic idea as the Paklite using 9v cells for crazy long run times.

I really like them and though the light is just putrid and ancient that comes from them they work well as a tool for outages and all 6 of mine have been working every day for years and still do.

One model stays lit at a low level all the time and has never gone dark since I got them!


----------



## FRITZHID

Power outage? I simply lack this. If after 10 hrs when my UPS fails, I have NG/LP back up gen... IF that should fail, I find that several 100lm lights are plenty. 3 1k lumen lanterns. 7 5500lm Handsun HID lights, 24 random hand held 300-1200 lm lights, solar charger, 7 oil lanterns, and about 30 candles.


----------



## Rick NJ

Interesting that there are two distinct "emergency light" needs. One is the short outage (few hours max) where emergency light's power consumption is hardly a concern. The other is for very long extended outage where every mAH or even uAH counts.

Perhaps the best is to experiment what is the minimum needed lighting. I did that measurement and planned from that. My RV lights running off 18650 (boost) and 12V-SLA are my lavish lights during early stages of power out. And if outage gets extended, I know from my measurements (using my 3AA pack with 4xLED ):
- 1x80mA is what I need to take a shower, do kitchen cooking, washing, and eating.
And per-person in my family:
- 1x10mA is enough to walk around as well as to avoid panic in total darkness.
So, I know if extended emergency hits, I know how long I will last once I dip into our reserved fully charge Eneloops (6 Eneloops per person).

Now I approach potential power outage with some claim instead of "what now".




braddy said:


> There are plenty of vent-less natural gas space heaters. Here is an example, "Mr. Heater 30,000 BTU Natural Gas Blue Flame Vent Free Heater".



Vent-less is not the same as CO-less. It still emit the CO, just absent a vent to vent it away.

If I am to buy one, I would get one with vent and try to find a way to connect the vent outside somehow. I doubt I would actually buy one. Of course, the next power outage in deep winter will make me think again and kick myself for not doing so sooner.


----------



## braddy

I don't know how many times the CO concerns can be repeated, but hopefully, anyone smart enough to be on this forum, and capable of buying and connecting a natural gas space heater to their water heater gas line, or tapping into their fireplace line, can figure out to get a safe one, and how to use it in an emergency down in the basement or by the fireplace,

They have low oxygen sensors built into them also, and most people have Carbon monoxide detectors. Personally, I would have a couple for power outages, if my winters got harsh enough.


----------



## Poppy

Rick NJ said:


> My in-laws were out of power for a while too initially but by then restored. They had a power generator but due to improper storage, it didn't work.
> *- Forget power generators for major storm.* Apart from those without gas (and there were many), the "neighborhood chit chat" was many other instances of no-go: generators needs to be stored drained and cleaned. When it wasn't, it just doesn't work when you "pull it out from the garage with the tank half filled a couple of years back".
> 
> <SNIP>
> *- While gas powered generator has its draw backs*, I am still thinking about them on and off. Last winter (no power outage), it was -10F some nights and no-heat would have been very hard. The generator is useless to the HVAC heating unless house wiring to the HVAC is changed to accept occasional generator used. For insurance reasons alone, it must be done by licensed electricians. That the generator needs to be drained and cleaned before storage means it is not as much of a "put away until emergency" solution. That is on my mind, but likely I won't do anything until after the next big outage to change my mind.
> 
> <SNIP>
> Gas stove heating was inadequate for comfort but adequate for survival. It is dangerous so heating is something I must look into for extended power failure in the winter.



I'd like to suggest that powering a properly vented furnace eliminates the CO concerns.

A friend that I offered my generator to after I didn't need mine anymore, was one of those who had a generator that wouldn't start or run properly. He had to take it to a small engine repair shop. Since Rick_NJ also made mention of this being an issue, *I'd like to suggest that each person with a generator, add a can of Gumout Carb and Choke cleaner to your "generator" supplies. 
*
Personally, I try to test my generator about twice a year. I disconnect the gas tank, fill an in-line filter with gas... about an ounce... start her up, and run the carb dry. This way I don't have to worry about stale gas gumming up the carb, and I ensure that a spider didn't get in there and clog stuff up. 

I have a power washer that I got for free, because if you pored gas in one end, it pored out the other. The float in the carb was stuck to the bottom of the bowl. I dropped the bowl, and used a little carb cleaner, and now, I have a perfectly running power washer, that I share with neighbors and friends :thumbsup:


----------



## Grijon

Poppy said:


> I'd like to suggest that powering a properly vented furnace eliminates the CO concerns.
> 
> A friend that I offered my generator to after I didn't need mine anymore, was one of those who had a generator that wouldn't start or run properly. He had to take it to a small engine repair shop. Since Rick_NJ also made mention of this being an issue, *I'd like to suggest that each person with a generator, add a can of Gumout Carb and Choke cleaner to your "generator" supplies.
> *
> Personally, I try to test my generator about twice a year. I disconnect the gas tank, fill an in-line filter with gas... about an ounce... start her up, and run the carb dry. This way I don't have to worry about stale gas gumming up the carb, and I ensure that a spider didn't get in there and clog stuff up.
> 
> I have a power washer that I got for free, because if you pored gas in one end, it pored out the other. The float in the carb was stuck to the bottom of the bowl. I dropped the bowl, and used a little carb cleaner, and now, I have a perfectly running power washer, that I share with neighbors and friends :thumbsup:



This post is excellence.


----------



## BloodLust

more_vampires said:


> Lantern glare has been a design flaw since the advent of lanterns. It bugs me too. You are not alone, sir.




Same here. I hate looking at bare LEDs and those that are in the bluish range of tints. It doesn't have to be a warm tint per se but I really don't like the ones that look blue. Also those that have a low rate of PWM. I notice the flicker.


One solution on some cheap lamps that I bought ( I also used this o some headlamps and my Luci inflatable solar rechargeable lamp.).

- I used a matte or frosting spray to frost the lenses of some lights and headlamps. I lose a few lumens but I get much more useable light with a lot less glare.

- I used it on my daughter's flashlights so in the even of a power failure, she has a diffused spread of light which makes it easier for her to walk around since she sees more things and the floor rather than trying to point a spot of light.

- I also sprayed the Energizer 2x 2032 mini headlamps with clips in our BOBs since they will be used for walking or closeup tasks. If I need more distance, I have 1xAA tactical lights in there as well. This is besides the ones I have on me.
(I use 2032 since they don't leak. Also they are really cheap here. I can get Energizer ones for about US$1 for a pair. Lithium primaries like AA, AAA and 123s are overpriced here.)


(Posted this in another thread.)
I recently got an Xtar XP1 single bay charger. Charges both Ni-Mh and Li-Ions upto AA/14500 in size. I still have to test the setup but the single bay should put less stress on the solar panel and be easier to charge rather than a the 4-bay Guide 10 Plus.


----------



## more_vampires

BloodLust said:


> One solution on some cheap lamps that I bought ( I also used this o some headlamps and my Luci inflatable solar rechargeable lamp.).
> - I used a matte or frosting spray to frost the lenses of some lights and headlamps. I lose a few lumens but I get much more useable light with a lot less glare.


On diffusion, those cheap thin white disposable grocery bags work well for a diffuser, if you can slip a piece under the lens. I also fold up one to place over a compact, but painfully glaring lantern.


----------



## Poppy

I snipped this from post #462


Poppy said:


> I also wrote a review of the Walmart "Ozark Trail 300 Lumen Lantern"
> It is a low cost ($14.97) single Cree XB-D emitter and runs on three D cells.
> It has a high and low and just uses two different resistors.
> It has a CW tint, but not a terrible blue. For a couple of dollars I picked up a warm/NW XB-D and it was very easy to swap it in.
> A little more challenging was to remove the inner diffuser and swap in one that was a little better.
> *What really impressed me with this lantern was how long 3 D alkaline cells can power an LED lantern under low loads. I imagine that just about any 3D cell lantern that starts at 50 lumens or less, will run for 7 hours a night for a month. In other words, each D cell (under low loads) will have a similar capacity to a 18650 cell*.



I recently used HKJs data to make a comparison of an alkaline D cell to a Panasonic 3400mAh 18650 cell.

If you look at HKJs measured tests, of a D cell alkaline, 
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batterie...%20D%20UK.html

and compare it to one of his tests of a Panasonic NCR 18650B...
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batterie...n%29%20UK.html

The D cell at 0.200 amps delivers 17.429 wH
The 18650 at 0.200 amps delivers 12.123 wH

@ 0.50 amp the D cell delivers 12.792 wH
@ 0.50 amp the 18650 delivers 11.714 wH

@ 1.00 amp the D cell delivers 8.750 wH
@ 1.00 amp the 18650 delivers 11.254 wH

------------------------------
@ 3.00 amps the D delivers only 3.7 wH
@ 3 amps the 18650 delivers 10.7 wH

---------------------------------------------------------------
I guess that at about 600ma they are about equal in deliverable watt hours. Below that, the alkaline D cell is up to about 1.5 times better, and above that the 18650 can be up to about 3 times better.


----------



## Poppy

I added the Amazon Basics AA 2500ma (Eneloop)

I also added the tensai 8000ma D cell NiMH
The D cell at 0.200 amps delivers 17.429 wH
The 18650 at 0.200 amps delivers 12.123 wH
AA NiMH... 3.075wH
D NiMH... 11.409 wH

@ 0.50 amp the D cell delivers 12.792 wH
@ 0.50 amp the 18650 delivers 11.714 wH
AA NiMH... 2.997 wH
D NiMH... 11.141 wH

@ 1.00 amp the D cell delivers 8.750 wH
@ 1.00 amp the 18650 delivers 11.254 wH
AA NiMH... 2.914 wH
D NiMH... 11.077 wH

------------------------------
@ 3.00 amps the D delivers only 3.7 wH
@ 3 amps the 18650 delivers 10.7 wH
AA NiMH... 2.690 wH
D NiMH... 10.576 wH


----------



## Poppy

I was wondering how 3AA NiMH eneloops inserted into a D cell adapter would compare.
Considering each of the three AAs would have to deliver only 1/3rd of the amperage as each D cell, each's load would be less and they would be able to deliver a slightly higher number of watt hours. I used the above information and 1 amp loads for the AAs and 3 amp loads for the D cells. I also used 0.2 amp loads for the AAs and 0.5 amp loads for the Ds. 

For a lantern/light that pulls 3 amps, the alkaline D cell can deliver 3.7 wH, and the 3*AA adapter can deliver 8.7 wH.
For a lantern/light that pulls 0.5 amps, the alkaline D cell can deliver 12.8 wH, and the 3*AA adapter can deliver 9.2 wH.

So once again, this demonstrates that a D cell under low load (I'll define that as less than 500ma load) will outperform NiMH cells, but under higher loads, (IE if you want more light) then NiMH (even 3*AAs in an adapter) will outperform alkaline D cells.


----------



## Poppy

Last week we had a heat wave, and a rolling power outage was a possibility.

I have five gallons of gas for the generator. I put them into my car's gas tank, then topped off the car's tank and put fresh gas in the containers for the genny. 
I called my dad, and told him to fill his car's tank, and to lower the temp setting on his thermostat a couple of degrees. This way if the power goes out, he'll be comfortable longer. He typically keeps it a little warmer and uses fans.

What do you do to prepare for a brown-out in the summer?


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> Last week we had a heat wave, and a rolling power outage was a possibility.
> 
> I have five gallons of gas for the generator. I put them into my car's gas tank, then topped off the car's tank and put fresh gas in the containers for the genny.
> I called my dad, and told him to fill his car's tank, and to lower the temp setting on his thermostat a couple of degrees. This way if the power goes out, he'll be comfortable longer. He typically keeps it a little warmer and uses fans.
> 
> What do you do to prepare for a brown-out in the summer?


I tested these SPECIFICALLY for power outages in the summer
http://www.wholesalemarine.com/minimax-port-battery-fan-4-5.html?gclid=CJP55ZW5vccCFZU2aQodZgoNxw

On the Tenergy LSD D-cells, they'll run 10 hours a day for about 7 days at half power, which provides a decent breeze with the fan placed 2-3 feet away.

That and a wet towel/bandanna/handkerchief etc works well for preventing overheating in hot weather with no power. Haven't tested them with alkaline D-cells.

I also like Columbia's Omni-Freeze material. It's a synthetic material that supposedly sucks up heat when it gets wet (i.e. even sweating supposedly activates it). Evaporation dissipates the heat.

I also like sticking these in the freezer https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00V9ITMYC/?tag=cpf0b6-20
They can stay frozen for several days in a freezer or cooler for camping etc. without the mess from melting ice.

Depending on the size of the freezer/fridge and how full it is, it's also an option to freeze more of those and put a few in the fridge.


Max


----------



## Rick NJ

Poppy said:


> Last week we had a heat wave, and a rolling power outage was a possibility.
> 
> ...



This turned out to be a big nothing. I recalled once having driven on Rt22 and temperature reads 104F, last week at the same spot at during the hottest time of the day, I didn't even get triple digit. 98F was the worst.

That said, it was hot --- this six in New Jersey has a wonderful idea in cooling themselves down... *five cute bears and mommy bear* took over a pool from a family - in Rockaway Township NJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77dtqOOaGLo


----------



## StarHalo

Not just for outages, but summer in general; the evaporative cooling towel. We own a few of these and they're magic, the yoga-mat material really does stay wet and cool for hours, and it's like air conditioning with the tiniest breeze. I will sometimes wear one of these in the car when doing errands on 100+ degree days, highly recommended.


----------



## Min Min

Poppy said:


> .....What do you do to prepare for a brown-out in the summer?


Summer months in my region it’s high bushfire risk, brown/blackouts are frequent during this time. We have batteries, gensets, pumps all at the ready. One thing that is a great backup that I have setup for camping are 12 volt inverters. Mine are 1800w pure sinewave fixed to my vehicle in which I fitted a dual battery system (primarily to run a winch & fridge)....most people wouldn’t need this setup as it costs some decent coin, yet the same inverters are portable.
It’s just a case of attaching it to your car battery with the jumper leads and you’re up and going. Pure sine wave inverters over modified sine wave are more practical for equipment with sensitive electronics and lower wattage output inverters don’t cost a great deal.

..... and my Grandkids call me Poppy too!


----------



## Poppy

bluemax_1 said:


> I also like sticking these in the freezer https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00V9ITMYC/?tag=cpf0b6-20
> They can stay frozen for several days in a freezer or cooler for camping etc. without the mess from melting ice.
> 
> Depending on the size of the freezer/fridge and how full it is, it's also an option to freeze more of those and put a few in the fridge.
> 
> 
> Max


Hi Max,
We buy bottled water by the case, and I often put 6 - 12 bottles in the freezer and will use them as ice in a cooler. When they melt, they are still cold water, and they don't make the mess of melted ice cubes. I hadn't considered packing the freezer with them in preparation of a possible outage.

Even in one of those cheap vinyl insulated bags, a couple of them will stay partially frozen for a good part of the day even in a hot car in the sun.


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> Hi Max,
> We buy bottled water by the case, and I often put 6 - 12 bottles in the freezer and will use them as ice in a cooler. When they melt, they are still cold water, and they don't make the mess of melted ice cubes. I hadn't consider packing the freezer with them in preparation of a possible outage.
> 
> Even in one of those cheap vinyl insulated bags, a couple of them will stay partially frozen for a good part of the day even in a hot car in the sun.



The fuller the freezer is with completely frozen items, the longer it stays cold. So yes, packing the freezer with bottled water while you still have power, in preparation for a potential power outage, can help keep the freezer cold a good bit longer.

When I was a kid, we always had a few freezer packs in the freezer at any given time. It made it convenient for just grabbing and tossing them in a cooler on a whim for impromptu, spur of the moment picnics/outings. Apparently, my dad was also savvy to the fact that keeping a few in the freezer at any given time would help keep food frozen for several days in the event of a sudden power outage.

One of the cool (cold?) things about those freezer gel packs is how cold they get. If you take a couple frozen bottles of water and stick them in a cooler with other bottles of room temperature water, the frozen bottles will make the room temperature bottles cooler, but the room temperature bottles will start thawing out the frozen bottles.

The gel packs get cold enough that they'll freeze the water in room temperature bottles placed in the cooler in contact with the freezer packs. That they get that cold is the reason they can keep the freezer (or items in a cooler) colder for a longer duration than regular (not dry) ice.

Freezing bottled water is a great and inexpensive option though. I would advise folks considering trying the bottled water option to make sure that they get 'good' bottles though. There are lots of companies with bottled water and not all the caps are created equal. I've had some bottles that cracked/broke/popped the cap when the water froze from leaving it in the SUV in winter. Off the top of my head, I know the caps on Aquafina bottles have no problems due to the water freezing (I have a habit of leaving a case of water in the SUV)


Max


----------



## Rick NJ

bluemax_1 said:


> The fuller the freezer is with completely frozen items, the longer it stays cold. So yes, packing the freezer with bottled water while you still have power, in preparation for a potential power outage, can help keep the freezer cold a good bit longer.
> 
> When I was a kid, we always had a few freezer packs in the freezer at any given time. It made it convenient for just grabbing and tossing them in a cooler on a whim for impromptu, spur of the moment picnics/outings. Apparently, my dad was also savvy to the fact that keeping a few in the freezer at any given time would help keep food frozen for several days in the event of a sudden power outage.
> 
> One of the cool (cold?) things about those freezer gel packs is how cold they get. If you take a couple frozen bottles of water and stick them in a cooler with other bottles of room temperature water, the frozen bottles will make the room temperature bottles cooler, but the room temperature bottles will start thawing out the frozen bottles.
> 
> The gel packs get cold enough that they'll freeze the water in room temperature bottles placed in the cooler in contact with the freezer packs. That they get that cold is the reason they can keep the freezer (or items in a cooler) colder for a longer duration than regular (not dry) ice.
> 
> Freezing bottled water is a great and inexpensive option though. I would advise folks considering trying the bottled water option to make sure that they get 'good' bottles though. There are lots of companies with bottled water and not all the caps are created equal. I've had some bottles that cracked/broke/popped the cap when the water froze from leaving it in the SUV in winter. Off the top of my head, I know the caps on Aquafina bottles have no problems due to the water freezing (I have a habit of leaving a case of water in the SUV)
> 
> 
> Max



Frozen water has the added advantage of being able to be a cold drink to help cooling a person down. But if you are interesting in merely "storing more coldness" to keep things frozen longer, old milk/pop-drink bottle with salt do nicely. Since the water in there is not for drinking, road-salt is a good way to get cheap concentrated salt.

The salt-water makes a good "make-shift gel packs" even in the winter. I put them outdoor to get as cold as possible overnight, then put them in my "powerless" freezer. That helps keep food cold enough not to be spoiled.


----------



## reppans

Poppy said:


> I have five gallons of gas for the generator. I put them into my car's gas tank, then topped off the car's tank and put fresh gas in the containers for the genny.....
> 
> What do you do to prepare for a brown-out in the summer?



This.... (also for the genny).


reppans said:


> .... For transportation fuel conservation, we have a ~50 mpg hybrid car, and motorcycle, but I do need to learn/practice how to defeat modern vehicle's anti-siphon/roll-over protection safety valves to shift fuel between vehicles...


----------



## Poppy

This whole gel pack VS ice idea has me thinking, and having to look stuff up, to refresh what I learned in chemistry, back when Edison was inventing the light bulb hehe  . 

First. The definition stated backwards: A calorie is the amount of heat that a gram of water can absorb that raises itself one degree Celsius.
Second: a kilogram of water can absorb 1000 calories for each degree it warms Celsius. A kilogram of water is about one US quart.
Third: When water changes state, IE from frozen solid to liquid, it absorbs 80 calories per gram, or 80,000 calories per kilogram/quart.
Fourth: Normally a domestic freezer is best set to −18 °C (0 °F) or colder

From what I have read, it seems to me that these gel packs, and frozen salt water, can not absorb more calories than a similar amount of water, (and they can't get colder than ice, but rather can only get as cold as the freezer is set at) but both, shift the temperature of the change of state, from solid to liquid to lower temperatures than regular ice. 

Temperatures of change of state:
Pure water freezes at 32F/0C
Salt water freezes at (depending upon the concentration) 22F/ -5.5C
The gel packs that Max pointed to freeze at 18F/ -7.8C

Given all the above information, it seems to me that if you wanted to keep things frozen, such as in your freezer, then you would do well to use the frozen salt water, or frozen gell because their "boost" of heat absorption (temperatures of change of state) will occur below the freezing point of water. OTOH, if your goal is to keep food/drinks cold, but not frozen, such as in the refrigerator, or in a cooler, then you may be better served by using frozen water, that boosts its heat absorption when the inside temp reaches 32F ( the recommended fridge temp is 40F or lower).

I believe that the conduction of thermal energy, is greater with an increased temperature difference across the insulative barrier, in other words, the colder it is inside the fridge, the quicker it will absorb calories from the outside.

Regarding camping, and using a cooler:
Perhaps a blend of both technologies may work well. Ideally, any foods that you plan to put in the cooler, you should bring to nearly freezing in the home refrigerator first.


----------



## Poppy

reppans said:


> This.... (also for the genny).





> Originally Posted by *reppans*
> 
> 
> 
> .... For transportation fuel conservation, we have a ~50 mpg hybrid car, and motorcycle, but* I do need to learn/practice how to defeat modern vehicle's anti-siphon/roll-over protection safety valves to shift fuel between vehicles...*


Modern, and not so modern cars/trucks with fuel injection, have an electric fuel pump in the gas tank. If you send power to the pump, and can capture the gas from somewhere along the fuel line, you can use the pump to get the gas out of the tank. 
Most, if not all pumps will be powered by a relay. If you look at the relay, and it has four pins, two will be larger, and two smaller. If you jumper the larger pins, that will power the pump. 

Two places that may be convenient to open the fuel line will be at the fuel filter, or at the fuel rail. You will probably need a specialty tool to disconnect the fuel line, but they are very inexpensive. Most, if not all have a fuel pressure test port on or near the fuel rail. You may have to google its location for your particular engine, but for Fords, it is usually very visible and it looks like a bicycle tire valve. I googled toyota, and it appears that theirs is not as easy as a Ford, and you may need a specialty connector hose. But for my Fords, I used a bicycle hand pump's hose, screwed it onto the test port connector, and easily/fairly quickly filled a one gallon container, multiple times. I couldn't get a larger container within reach of the relatively short hose, but connecting and disconnecting the jumper wire for the relay to the pump was as easy as flipping a switch on and off.


----------



## Rick NJ

Poppy said:


> This whole gel pack VS ice idea has me thinking, and having to look stuff up, to refresh what I learned in chemistry, back when Edison was inventing the light bulb hehe  .
> ...
> ...
> Regarding camping, and using a cooler:
> Perhaps a blend of both technologies may work well. Ideally, any foods that you plan to put in the cooler, you should bring to nearly freezing in the home refrigerator first.


Poppy, your description is great.. I too learned my Physics in ancient times, but since I majored in Physics, I kind of feel obligated to pipe in. So, if I may...

*EDIT*: *Holy smoke! My physics left me.* My initial reply here was incorrect.

Poppy gently reminded me "if I recall correctly, latent heat is about 0.1cal/gm" is wrong. It is around 80cal/gm. I came up with this way during a power out based on this incorrectly recalled figure, and I never went back to recheck. So, I deserve a kick in the bud, which I will go administer the punishment shortly.

I edited out the incorrect part so I don't suggest others doing dumb things as I did.

Thanks for the reminder! Poppy.

Rick


----------



## BloodLust

I can't remember where I read it but the squarish/blockich 1 gallon Crytal Geyser bottles stack well due to their shape. Even upright and side by side, they stick together and don't have dead air space so they act as a bigger block of ice.
Would be nice to put in a larger cooler when heading out.
I'm not sure how the bottle or cap will handle freezing. Seems ok though just judging by it's looks and material.
I'd like to test it but it's not available where I am. It's what I buy when I travel to the US and stay at hotels though but the hotel room refs won't have a freezer compartment big enough for it.
I just might check-in an empty one sometime and bring it across the world just to test it.


----------



## Poppy

Rick NJ said:


> Poppy, your description is great.. I too learned my Physics in ancient times, but since I majored in Physics, I kind of feel obligated to pipe in. So, if I may...
> 
> *EDIT*: *Holy smoke! My physics left me.* My initial reply here was incorrect.
> 
> <SNIP>


Thanks Rick!
Your initial response had a lot of good information in it, was well explained and was well thought out.
I look forward to your future posts. :thumbsup:


----------



## rpm00

Had a 4 hour power outage tonight due to a lighting strike in the area. Observations and lessons learned:
- need to get some kind of night lights for the kids rooms that run off batteries. I ended up just tail standing my SC62w and SC600 which worked ok, but would prefer something more dedicated to the task 
- kids normally sleep with white noise MP3 playing... Need to get some little battery powered thing for this. They had trouble going down because of this. Maybe a little radio tuned to static would do the trick. 
- my UPS that powers my NAS, router, wifi died after about an hour. Damn AGM batteries. Need something much better than that. 
- caught in the evening with cell phones around 25% which wasn't good at all. I have three portable power banks so we were ok. But I feel exposed here. 
- wife complained it was hot because the AC was out... Not sure I can do anything about that other than a full home genny.


----------



## bluemax_1

rpm00 said:


> - wife complained it was hot because the AC was out... Not sure I can do anything about that other than a full home genny.



Several posts above (698 and 700), there were links to cooling towels and battery powered fans.


Max


----------



## etc

bluemax_1 said:


> Several posts above (698 and 700), there were links to cooling towels and battery powered fans.
> 
> 
> Max




4d Mag with low powered Nite-Ize module from Walmart.

Need to give away that miserable thing during the next power outage.


----------



## Rick NJ

rpm00 said:


> Had a 4 hour power outage tonight due to a lighting strike in the area. Observations and lessons learned:
> - need to get some kind of night lights for the kids rooms that run off batteries. I ended up just tail standing my SC62w and SC600 which worked ok, but would prefer something more dedicated to the task
> - kids normally sleep with white noise MP3 playing... Need to get some little battery powered thing for this. They had trouble going down because of this. Maybe a little radio tuned to static would do the trick.
> - my UPS that powers my NAS, router, wifi died after about an hour. Damn AGM batteries. Need something much better than that.
> - caught in the evening with cell phones around 25% which wasn't good at all. I have three portable power banks so we were ok. But I feel exposed here.
> - wife complained it was hot because the AC was out... Not sure I can do anything about that other than a full home genny.



How about a small room air-conditioner? If you have a 2kw range generator, it should run a 15A-110Volt small room AC and you have a "retreat" place to get cool down for a bit.


----------



## 1DaveN

rpm00 said:


> Had a 4 hour power outage tonight due to a lighting strike in the area. Observations and lessons learned:
> - need to get some kind of night lights for the kids rooms that run off batteries. I ended up just tail standing my SC62w and SC600 which worked ok, but would prefer something more dedicated to the task
> - kids normally sleep with white noise MP3 playing... Need to get some little battery powered thing for this. They had trouble going down because of this. Maybe a little radio tuned to static would do the trick.
> - my UPS that powers my NAS, router, wifi died after about an hour. Damn AGM batteries. Need something much better than that.
> - caught in the evening with cell phones around 25% which wasn't good at all. I have three portable power banks so we were ok. But I feel exposed here.
> - wife complained it was hot because the AC was out... Not sure I can do anything about that other than a full home genny.



Opportunity knocks 

This is your chance to try out a Fenix CL25R lantern, which at its lowest setting might make a great night light for the kids, while also being useful for many more functions in a power failure as well. And you might even have other lights that can share 18650's.

I've found a number of situations where power banks save the day (and they'll power the CL25R on its two lowest settings).


----------



## Poppy

rpm00 said:


> Had a 4 hour power outage tonight due to a lighting strike in the area. Observations and lessons learned:
> - need to get some kind of night lights for the kids rooms that run off batteries. I ended up just tail standing my SC62w and SC600 which worked ok, but would prefer something more dedicated to the task


Thank you for sharing your observations.

I have been a proponent of "auto-on" emergency lighting, I believe that I first suggested it here, and there was a bit of follow-up discussion of it.
I have a few that plug into an outlet, and have a light sensor so if the room is dark enough, it'll come on. If the power fails, they'll come on, but only if the room is dark enough. This saves the batteries when the outage occurs during the daylight hours. I'd like to suggest that you pick up that style for the rooms that it would be appropriate.


----------



## Treeguy

NM

Sorry.


----------



## Treeguy

Poppy said:


> Thank you for sharing your observations.I have been a proponent of "auto-on" emergency lighting, I believe that I first suggested it here, and there was a bit of follow-up discussion of it.I have a few that plug into an outlet, and have a light sensor so if the room is dark enough, it'll come on. If the power fails, they'll come on, but only if the room is dark enough. This saves the batteries when the outage occurs during the daylight hours. I'd like to suggest that you pick up that style for the rooms that it would be appropriate.



Hey Poppy, :wave:

Wanted to say hello, hope you are doing well, and mention I _finally_ got my hands on a Rayovac indestructible lantern.

280 hours on low, which is bright enough to function with, but perhaps not read comfortably. And though the three bars/supports on the glass do interfere with the cleanliness of the light pattern, the lantern itself is a tank! Very heavy, very solid, it definitely has an _"Ì`m here for ya!" _attitude_. _I have a dozen Duracells for it and I think that takes care of my portable house lighting come storm time. 

No more tail standing my flashlights.


----------



## Poppy

Treeguy said:


> Hey Poppy, :wave:
> 
> Wanted to say hello, hope you are doing well, and mention I _finally_ got my hands on a Rayovac indestructible lantern.


Hi Treeguy! :wave:

I'm glad to see that you finally got one of those lanterns. If you find that you want to run it on high, then you may want to look into some Tenergy NiMH D cells. I saw one review that stated average battery life is only five hours.

I think that you'll still be tail standing some of your Indestructible 2AA lights.  I guess time will tell, eh?


----------



## sidecross

The idea of having no power should be considered for beyond just a few days. If your power will be out for more than 7 to 10 days the quantity of batteries is no longer a good solution. You must consider what your needs will be and try to supply those needs with the simplest solar solution that fits your budget.


----------



## StarHalo

rpm00 said:


> - need to get some kind of night lights for the kids rooms that run off batteries. I ended up just tail standing my SC62w and SC600 which worked ok, but would prefer something more dedicated to the task
> - kids normally sleep with white noise MP3 playing... Need to get some little battery powered thing for this. They had trouble going down because of this. Maybe a little radio tuned to static would do the trick.
> - my UPS that powers my NAS, router, wifi died after about an hour. Damn AGM batteries. Need something much better than that.
> - caught in the evening with cell phones around 25% which wasn't good at all. I have three portable power banks so we were ok. But I feel exposed here.
> - wife complained it was hot because the AC was out... Not sure I can do anything about that other than a full home genny.



- Pak-lites if they can work with that low level of light, would definitely avoid li-ions around the kids in the future

- Battery powered fans, cooling and white noise

- UPS strips are just for giving you enough time to finish up whatever you're doing and shut down everything normally

- Not-entirely-portable power packs can hit 20,000 mAh, which is many full recharges for any phone

- More battery powered fans, and don't forget the evaporative towels; these make even a lousy fan feel like good air conditioning


----------



## rpm00

Lots of good ideas here. Need to find some battery powered fans and those towels.


----------



## StarHalo

rpm00 said:


> Need to find some battery powered fans and those towels.



Bluemax provided the link for the fans, which he has tested and recommends. I provided the link for the towels, which I have tested and recommend.


----------



## Treeguy

Poppy said:


> Hi Treeguy! :wave:
> 
> I'm glad to see that you finally got one of those lanterns. If you find that you want to run it on high, then you may want to look into some Tenergy NiMH D cells. I saw one review that stated average battery life is only five hours.
> 
> I think that you'll still be tail standing some of your Indestructible 2AA lights.  I guess time will tell, eh?



The lantern I got was brand new but not in the box. It was a leftover from a charity raffle at a choir concert my wife sang it. For the life of me I cannot find any specs on the light other than 400 lumen high and 280 hours low. That's it. I might just turn it on high and see how long the included Rayovac batteries last. My guess is not very long. 

I'll probably skip rechargeable D cells and just use the Duracells I have. But you never know. (I did finally get some AA Eneloops and a charger, so I'm not a total Neanderthal.) I figure if I only run the light on medium, which is a very comfortable level, I'll get plenty o'time out of the Duracells I have.

As for my AA Indestructible, I'll just keep throwing it down the street until it dies. :laughing:


----------



## bluemax_1

There are several pros and cons to rechargeable D's to consider:

Cons:
- greater initial cost of rechargeable batteries AND a charger
- no advantage over disposable alkalines at low current draw levels.

Pros:
- increased runtimes over alkaline cells at high draw levels
- reusable over and over, which ends up recouping the initial cost vs disposable alkalines especially in any device that is used regularly
- the MOST important pro to me; unlike alkalines (especially if left in any device that sees infrequent usage, eg. emergency lighting), rechargeable NiMH don't have a tendency to leak. If you have a power outage, the LAST thing you want is to find your emergency lighting messed up and non-functional because the alkaline batteries in it leaked and corroded everything inside.

For the last reason, I have low self-discharge rechargeable D's in my lanterns (and battery operated fans). I know that even if they haven't been used in a while, they're ready to go AND I won't find a corroded mess from alkaleaks.


Max


----------



## StarHalo

I ran across one of these in the warehouse today: a 5" fan powered by 4xAA batteries OR USB cable OR A/C. Run it off regular Eneloops or alkalines, or plug it into a cellphone power pack, or plug it into an inverter/genny line, or rig a battery pack for a DC in plug. As mentioned all the time over in the radio thread, a good power outage radio has lots of power options in case anything goes wrong with any particular power source; it's nice to see a fan that follows that same emergency preparedness design. ~$10 with color options.


----------



## Rick NJ

sidecross said:


> The idea of having no power should be considered for beyond just a few days. If your power will be out for more than 7 to 10 days the quantity of batteries is no longer a good solution. You must consider what your needs will be and try to supply those needs with the simplest solar solution that fits your budget.



Actual experiences from the Halloween Storm (7+ day outage ) and the Sandy Storm (11+ day outage, no gasoline) were not encouraging for solar based solutions.

Storm is not often associated with nice sunny days. Depending on local weather, solar panels may be under inches of ice and snow. That problem was rather evident during the Halloween storm a couple of years before Sandy - days of snow with 6 to 8 inches of snow followed by ice covering everything. Granted, it is better than nothing, but probability of sunless days after storm is high.

I arranged my emergency lighting based on SLA's charged using my car, plus portable stuff that I can use car cigarette lighter adapter to charge, or take to the local library to recharge. The storm Sandy has local public facilities (library and coffee shops) well experienced with setting up for near-by citizens going there for recharging. I ensured I also have very low power LED lighting so it can last over a week - low power but some light to avoid total darkness. Those are based on Eneloops and LiIon cells and I am equipped with car-adaptor chargers.

My main "unaddressed issue" really is heat - HVAC (gas-heat) doesn't work without electricity. I am considering some kind of portable heaters, but thus far I have been dragging my feet on that.


----------



## H-Man

Poppy said:


> Thank you for sharing your observations.
> 
> I have been a proponent of "auto-on" emergency lighting, I believe that I first suggested it here, and there was a bit of follow-up discussion of it.
> I have a few that plug into an outlet, and have a light sensor so if the room is dark enough, it'll come on. If the power fails, they'll come on, but only if the room is dark enough. This saves the batteries when the outage occurs during the daylight hours. I'd like to suggest that you pick up that style for the rooms that it would be appropriate.


I'm a propent of always on lights. I have a light dim enough I get a year of run time out of 2AA cells, I'll eventually wedge an XP-E2 or XPC into it with a resistor providing a low current switch bypass.


----------



## bluemax_1

StarHalo said:


> I ran across one of these in the warehouse today: a 5" fan powered by 4xAA batteries OR USB cable OR A/C. Run it off regular Eneloops or alkalines, or plug it into a cellphone power pack, or plug it into an inverter/genny line, or rig a battery pack for a DC in plug. As mentioned all the time over in the radio thread, a good power outage radio has lots of power options in case anything goes wrong with any particular power source; it's nice to see a fan that follows that same emergency preparedness design. ~$10 with color options.



That looks like an interesting option. I'd be curious to see how long it could run on 4xAAs. The one I tested ran on 4 D-cells which hold a LOT more juice. That and the difference in the fan blade shapes. The Caframo Minimax (the model I tested) also has the ability to run off a power adapter, but the power adapter isn't included.

For $10 though, someone should definitely try this one out.


Max


----------



## Treeguy

Rick NJ said:


> Actual experiences from the Halloween Storm (7+ day outage ) and the Sandy Storm (11+ day outage, no gasoline) were not encouraging for solar based solutions.
> 
> Storm is not often associated with nice sunny days. Depending on local weather, solar panels may be under inches of ice and snow. That problem was rather evident during the Halloween storm a couple of years before Sandy - days of snow with 6 to 8 inches of snow followed by ice covering everything. Granted, it is better than nothing, but probability of sunless days after storm is high.
> 
> I arranged my emergency lighting based on SLA's charged using my car, plus portable stuff that I can use car cigarette lighter adapter to charge, or take to the local library to recharge. The storm Sandy has local public facilities (library and coffee shops) well experienced with setting up for near-by citizens going there for recharging. I ensured I also have very low power LED lighting so it can last over a week - low power but some light to avoid total darkness. Those are based on Eneloops and LiIon cells and I am equipped with car-adaptor chargers.
> 
> My main "unaddressed issue" really is heat - HVAC (gas-heat) doesn't work without electricity. I am considering some kind of portable heaters, but thus far I have been dragging my feet on that.



+1

When the power goes out here, odds are there is a blizzard outside, soon to be followed by clear skies and a sudden and drastic drop in temperature. Not to mention winter daylight is short and nights are loooong. During winter outages, solar charging is less than efficient, to say the least. A healthy stock of alkaleaks for devices that function on standard batteries is, on the whole, a good option. 

One thing I know well from much experience with winter power outages - Simplify! Simplify! Simplify!


----------



## rpm00

Rick NJ said:


> I arranged my emergency lighting based on SLA's charged using my car, plus portable stuff that I can use car cigarette lighter adapter to charge, or take to the local library to recharge. The storm Sandy has local public facilities (library and coffee shops) well experienced with setting up for near-by citizens going there for recharging. I ensured I also have very low power LED lighting so it can last over a week - low power but some light to avoid total darkness. Those are based on Eneloops and LiIon cells and I am equipped with car-adaptor chargers.
> 
> My main "unaddressed issue" really is heat - HVAC (gas-heat) doesn't work without electricity. I am considering some kind of portable heaters, but thus far I have been dragging my feet on that.



Can you tell us more about this SLA solution? 

Check out the Big Buddy for heat.


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## Rick NJ

rpm00 said:


> Can you tell us more about this SLA solution?
> 
> Check out the Big Buddy for heat.



I don't know how deep you want me to go. If you want more details (such as why this, why that), let me know. These solution are designed for extended (week long and longer) outage.

*The lights (6 of them) are RV/boat ceiling lights* using 12xSMD5050 "flat-bulbs" with G4 connection. Each SMD is 3 LED, so 12xSMD5050 is 36 led for each "flat-bulb." They are a mix of 100-160LM bulbs and draw 100mA-120mA (1AH give me 8-10 hours for one bulb).

My 5050SMDx12 flat bulbs looks like this one listed on eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2W-G4-LED-L...-Home-Garden-DC-12V-Cool-white-A/151806763055


The six bulbs are divided into 3 pairs with each pair *powered via a CLA (cigarette lighter adaptor)*. One bulb directly connects to the CLA and the other connected via a 5.1mm plug to the CLA. So, I can either use single or both bulbs in the pair as needed.

They are not permanently connected. In the "emergency light storage box" is a roll of painter's masking tape. Great for taping the light and wire to the wall. A pair of 100lm taped high on the wall or ceiling in the kitchen is not as bright as my normal lighting, but more than enough for cooking/eating/washing.

*Power is from three SLAs*. Two from my pair of *car booster/jumper packs* I have at hand (5AH and 7AH). These boost/jumper batteries is equipped with CLA socket, cradle, and battery level LED indicators, etc. Third one is a high-drain UPS battery with added CLA socket and carrying cradle.

*For fast replenishment, I use what I called "open hood method."* When it is not raining, I start the car, open the hood, and connect the jumper/booster’s clip-cable directly to the car as if I am jumping the car. Since the car is already running, it pumps charges into the battery. For the UPS battery, I charge it via the CLA socket. According to the jumper/booster's battery level indicator, in less than 15 minutes, it will top up a half-discharged jumper/booster.

*Second way is just drive to the library* to recharge, there, I can charge my laptop/phones as well (and of course also charging other things along the way with the CLA inside the car). This I called my "power visits" I begin charge using converted laptop power bricks pumping in 3A into one and 4A into the other. When it gets near 14V (I have a pair of CLA plug volt meters), I switch back to the stock 1A charger that came with the jumper/booster pack.

From Sandy and the Halloween storm, I found total darkness really really really gets me. So besides the SLA based RV lights, I have some Eneloop (3xAA) based low level lights. They are just simple LED with ballast to (low) 5mA-8mA and (high) 70-80mA. Since the CLA's were savaged from old car cell phone charger, they all have a KA or MC 34063A based buck board which I took out. With these basically useless buck boards, I converted them to adjustable boost boards so the 3xAA can also power those RV lights in a pinch. I use the same buck parts for boost. So with poorly matched parts, efficiency is just around 60%. But if/when in a pinch, the 3xAA+boost can power the RV lights.

Of course, my phones, NiMH/LiIon charger has a CLA as well, so as needed, I can cross charge my AA's and cross charge other devices with power in the SLAs.

After my initial "design" I have since recovered some 18650 from old laptops. In a pinch, 3x18650 can power those RV lights or 1x18650 with boost. But these are kind of 5th wheel and untested under real power-out situations. I am playing around with the mix and also added some cheapo 18650 flashlights recently.

Apart from the 18650 based stuff, the above was real world tested in a 3 to 5 days power outage. I found them adequate.


----------



## Poppy

StarHalo said:


> Bluemax provided the link for the fans, which he has tested and recommends. I provided the link for the towels, which I have tested and recommend.


I have seen those towels, or similar ones advertised. Do they really work better than a simple cotton towel?
If so, are they made of some kind of polyester material? Is the material hydrophobic, and does it somehow promote evaporation of the water (more than cotton) so that it gives a more rapid cooling effect?

Snapping the towel sounds like a marketing gimmick to me. Any thoughts?

LOL... inquiring minds want to know


----------



## Rick NJ

Poppy said:


> I have seen those towels, or similar ones advertised. Do they really work better than a simple cotton towel?
> If so, are they made of some kind of polyester material? Is the material hydrophobic, and does it somehow promote evaporation of the water (more than cotton) so that it gives a more rapid cooling effect?
> 
> Snapping the towel sounds like a marketing gimmick to me. Any thoughts?
> 
> LOL... inquiring minds want to know



I was in Florida in a veggie market some years back. An open air area size of three to five basket ball court (no walls) but with roof. They have *fans with a "water in"* connection and these fans blow water mists along to cool the place. Evaporation works better than I anticipate, but I add a lot more humidity into the air.

Don't know about yours, with *NJ summer humidity*, my carpet have bulk up with a hump - like a long 1 inch high mountain range across the carpet. I have two such "mountain ranges" at home. It goes away (mostly) when the air gets dry.

Since my solution is SLA based. I just go to the car and get the pair of 12V in-car fan to run indoor - without water to avoid adding more humidity (unless we are near heat stroke).


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> Do they really work better than a simple cotton towel?



Yes, orders of magnitude better, no-comparison better. It's yoga mat material, PVA, so once it's wet, it stays that way for hours, like a sponge. There have been triple-digit degree days my wife has been out on errands with her cooling towel for hours, and on coming home I'll take her towel and go out - still wet, still works. Any tiny movement of air instantly feels like a stray breeze from an air conditioner, just walking does it. I've spent lots of days with one of these on my neck all around town, can't recommend it enough if you have to contend with heat.


----------



## reppans

Evaporative cooling works really well in dryer climates like out West. On the Eastcoast, if it's hot, it tends to be very humid (ie, 90+ percent humidity) - there's no where for the water to evaporate to. As a motorcyclist, I've tried evaporative vests to stay cool, but it mostly felt like wearing a clammy (insulating) blanket .


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

reppans said:


> Evaporative cooling works really well in dryer climates like out West. On the Eastcoast, if it's hot, it tends to be very humid (ie, 90+ percent humidity) - there's no where for the water to evaporate to. As a motorcyclist, I've tried evaporative vests to stay cool, but it mostly felt like wearing a clammy (insulating) blanket .



Agreed. I took some on a trip to the Northern Frontier of Bolivia. 100 degrees and 90% humidity. Total fail.


----------



## rpm00

Rick NJ said:


> I don't know how deep you want me to go. If you want more details (such as why this, why that), let me know. These solution are designed for extended (week long and longer) outage.
> 
> *The lights (6 of them) are RV/boat ceiling lights* using 12xSMD5050 "flat-bulbs" with G4 connection. Each SMD is 3 LED, so 12xSMD5050 is 36 led for each "flat-bulb." They are a mix of 100-160LM bulbs and draw 100mA-120mA (1AH give me 8-10 hours for one bulb).
> 
> My 5050SMDx12 flat bulbs looks like this one listed on eBay.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2W-G4-LED-L...-Home-Garden-DC-12V-Cool-white-A/151806763055
> 
> 
> The six bulbs are divided into 3 pairs with each pair *powered via a CLA (cigarette lighter adaptor)*. One bulb directly connects to the CLA and the other connected via a 5.1mm plug to the CLA. So, I can either use single or both bulbs in the pair as needed.
> 
> They are not permanently connected. In the "emergency light storage box" is a roll of painter's masking tape. Great for taping the light and wire to the wall. A pair of 100lm taped high on the wall or ceiling in the kitchen is not as bright as my normal lighting, but more than enough for cooking/eating/washing.
> 
> *Power is from three SLAs*. Two from my pair of *car booster/jumper packs* I have at hand (5AH and 7AH). These boost/jumper batteries is equipped with CLA socket, cradle, and battery level LED indicators, etc. Third one is a high-drain UPS battery with added CLA socket and carrying cradle.
> 
> *For fast replenishment, I use what I called "open hood method."* When it is not raining, I start the car, open the hood, and connect the jumper/booster’s clip-cable directly to the car as if I am jumping the car. Since the car is already running, it pumps charges into the battery. For the UPS battery, I charge it via the CLA socket. According to the jumper/booster's battery level indicator, in less than 15 minutes, it will top up a half-discharged jumper/booster.
> 
> *Second way is just drive to the library* to recharge, there, I can charge my laptop/phones as well (and of course also charging other things along the way with the CLA inside the car). This I called my "power visits" I begin charge using converted laptop power bricks pumping in 3A into one and 4A into the other. When it gets near 14V (I have a pair of CLA plug volt meters), I switch back to the stock 1A charger that came with the jumper/booster pack.
> 
> From Sandy and the Halloween storm, I found total darkness really really really gets me. So besides the SLA based RV lights, I have some Eneloop (3xAA) based low level lights. They are just simple LED with ballast to (low) 5mA-8mA and (high) 70-80mA. Since the CLA's were savaged from old car cell phone charger, they all have a KA or MC 34063A based buck board which I took out. With these basically useless buck boards, I converted them to adjustable boost boards so the 3xAA can also power those RV lights in a pinch. I use the same buck parts for boost. So with poorly matched parts, efficiency is just around 60%. But if/when in a pinch, the 3xAA+boost can power the RV lights.
> 
> Of course, my phones, NiMH/LiIon charger has a CLA as well, so as needed, I can cross charge my AA's and cross charge other devices with power in the SLAs.
> 
> After my initial "design" I have since recovered some 18650 from old laptops. In a pinch, 3x18650 can power those RV lights or 1x18650 with boost. But these are kind of 5th wheel and untested under real power-out situations. I am playing around with the mix and also added some cheapo 18650 flashlights recently.
> 
> Apart from the 18650 based stuff, the above was real world tested in a 3 to 5 days power outage. I found them adequate.



This is one of the best posts I've ever seen on this site. Thank you! Lots of great info and ideas here. 

A few comments:
- I ordered a few different kinds of those 12v lights you mentioned from dx. There are tons on there. I want to make sure I get one with nice tint and then can order more. Also ordered some plugs for those to wire them up and some CLA adapters with alligator clips. 
- I haven't yet figured out what I want to do in terms of batteries. Thinking of two things:
1. Some lithiumion booster packs like you suggested. 
2. One or two deep cycle AGM batteries. I have a 110v car battery charger/maintainer which I think I can leave plugged in to a 12v all the time which will keep it charged. And then when the power goes out I have something to use. And then just jumpers to charge off the car when it's running? 

Not sure about your fast charge at the library. The reclaimed laptop strategy is a little too advanced/risky for me. Maybe I'll look for a small 12v fast charger for the same purpose. 

Any chance you could take some pictures of your setup? Very interested to see how you've laid it all out. . Thanks again!!


----------



## Rick NJ

rpm00 said:


> This is one of the best posts I've ever seen on this site. Thank you! Lots of great info and ideas here.
> 
> A few comments:
> - I ordered a few different kinds of those 12v lights you mentioned from dx. There are tons on there. I want to make sure I get one with nice tint and then can order more. Also ordered some plugs for those to wire them up and some CLA adapters with alligator clips.
> - I haven't yet figured out what I want to do in terms of batteries. Thinking of two things:
> 1. Some lithiumion booster packs like you suggested.
> 2. One or two deep cycle AGM batteries. I have a 110v car battery charger/maintainer which I think I can leave plugged in to a 12v all the time which will keep it charged. And then when the power goes out I have something to use. And then just jumpers to charge off the car when it's running?
> 
> Not sure about your fast charge at the library. The reclaimed laptop strategy is a little too advanced/risky for me. Maybe I'll look for a small 12v fast charger for the same purpose.
> 
> Any chance you could take some pictures of your setup? Very interested to see how you've laid it all out. . Thanks again!!



Thank you for the kind words! I spend a good bit of time considering options, so I am glad my solution is reused.

re: "*- I ordered a few different kinds of those 12v lights you mentioned from dx...*"
- Some nifty things about the *G4 connector,
* -- you can easily soldered wire directly onto the pins so you can skip the socket altogether.
-- G4 pin and spacing is also the same as *regular jumper-pins *like those on a PC motherboard. G4 can plug into the female jumper pin-headers - 3 pins-holes female with the center one skipped. The jumper pin sockets make a good G4 socket if you don't mind it being shorter.
-- The "floppy power plug" from an old PC power-supply (4pins) is also a perfect socket for it. Test your light with a 9V battery first to see if yours support polarity reversal (lights either way), and mark your plus if it does not. 6 of mine supports reversal and 2 does not. You just plug the G4 into the *yellow & black* skipping over the red and black. If your's doesn't support polarity reversal, make sure the + is on the yellow and you can use your floppy power out as a "light socket" for *light inside your PC case* when needed. Great when you are messing around with plugging in cards.

re: "*...to wire them up and some CLA adapters with alligator clips.* "
Suggestion to keep in your stock, cardboard paper like the ones in the back of a writing pad.
- Cut a 1inch by 2inch strip and hole-punch a hole at either end each about 1/2 inch to the edge. So the two holes are about 1 inch apart.
- When clipping lighter weight wires, just loop the exposed part of wire through the hole and clip it to the cardboard.
The _*cardboard paper holes keeps the gator-clips an inch apart and prevents them shorting*_.

For heavier wires:
- Cut out a 2inch square sheet
- on one side, lets call that the top-side, use paper hole-punch and punch *two holes*. One on the upper left and the other upper right each about 1/2 inch to the corner.
- Fold the bottom half toward the top so the sheet now looks like a *90-degree angled bar*.
- feed your wire looping once through the holes and then alligator clip.
The 90-degree folded angle (folding top-bottom) prevents the cardboard from folding in on itself left-right. It thus prevents the gator-clips from folding in on each other and shorts. The weight of the wire will pulling them together without the 90 degree fold.


re: "*- I haven't yet figured out what I want to do in terms of batteries...*"

First of all, UPS (uninterrupted power supply, not the shipper). UPS typically lists their recharging time on their spec sheet and it is typically 24hrs+. So even though they can be brought to the library for the "power visits", you can forget that one for fast charging. The juice it took in is small unless you plan to sleep at the library.

I choose to use "car starter/booster" because they can be clipped to cars. "Open-hood charging" is just about the fastest way I can think of recharging the SLA's. Auto battery is the best (Glass Mat or gel) since I know for sure I can car-charge them. I have to accept that the SLA's in the starter/booster is whatever kind they put in and may not be the deep-discharge kind. So, *I am using the battery up each time I deep discharge* them.

That said, I always keep a pair of car starter/booster batteries fully charged since car with dead battery is not so uncommon. Forgetting to turn off the interior light is my biggest offense. But since I always have the pair of car starter/booster batteries fully anyway, I am always ready for power-out in that manner.

re: "_*Not sure about your fast charge at the library. The reclaimed laptop strategy is a little too advanced/risky for me. Maybe I'll look for a small 12v fast charger for the same purpose.*"_
For lithium, I have 12V capable chargers (opus BT-C3400) and I have LaCrosse BC700 for NiMH (CLA adapter), both can recharge as my SLA is re-juicing from the car. I do not fast-charge lithium (beyond what the BT-C3400 does). For NiMH, I do fast-charge when they are very low. I serial 9 of them (three packs of 3xAA) so I am pumping 800mA to each at the same time. I don't even worry about overcharge because my library visits is too short to overcharge.

re:* "1. Some lithiumion booster packs like you suggested."
*_Booster is very inefficient. I use it only "in a pinch" like when I need to do a shave at the bath-room. It made sense when I had the 3xAA battery packs supporting my supplemental dim minimal lights. Now that I added 18650 flashlights, the booster+RV_light is kind of like a 5th-wheel.

re: "__*Any chance you could take some pictures of your setup? *"
__As soon as I figure out how to post pictures. This site doesn't allow me to post pictures and I don't have a photo-site account, so I will find a way around that._


----------



## Rick NJ

[ So, I added this as a discussion in EEVBlog so I can add pictures, and re-posted the post here ]

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/minimalist-lighting-for-long-duration-power-outage/
I had to rehash my set up so it doesn't seem so odd there, but we can continue our discussion here. Over at EEVblog, they likely will talk more about the electronics than the lighting.
- - - - - -

This was originally a discussion from another forum about emergency light for power outage. A forum member there asked me to show some photos of my extended outage set up. Since they do not allow photo upload, so I decide to take the conversation about the photos over here to this forum.


Attached are the pictures of my minimalist set up for long duration power outage emergency lights. The lights are not for "normal" few hour long power out, but for survival lights in long outages like the storm Sandy (11+days, no gasoline, no stores, roads closed for days) and the Halloween storm a couple of years before Sandy (8+days outage with 6-12 inch snow/ice). Sandy caused >30 days outage in some areas within 1/2 hour drive from my house. My solution is from my experience of Sandy and the Halloween storm. The solution is not high-tech but *minimalist set up for endurance*.


*[Photo 1]*






I have three people in my family, so my set up has three-count for everything. As these are for emergency, and I hate to put a lot of money into something that I hope I never touch, so they are mostly done with existing stuff I have at hand. The advantage is that since most are stuff I have at hand and are in used, so I know most of the stuff are in a working state.


Along with lab bench testing, the solution was "field tested" with a 3-5 days outage and another outage of the couple-of-days type. 


*(1) Eating/Cooking/Cleaning lights*


On the top right (photo1) are three RV/boat G4 ceiling lights wired to CLA (cigarette lighter adaptor) using 8 feet of speaker-wires. Note that they are "recovered" CLA from cell-phone chargers. I have a couple of splitters to allow 2 G4's to be connected to a CLA socket.


Power come from a pair of typical car-starter/booster SLA packs each with built in CLA out, jump cable clip, and LED power indicator. The third one is a UPS type battery with CLA (5amp) attached.


For "installing", I use painter's masking tape and tape it high up on the walls. Painter's tape gives me a very firm tape-down but can be easily removed with residue. Just one of this RV lights is adequate for cooking/cleaning/eating, but I usually use two to reduce shadows.


*(2) Since what gets me during the long outage is the total darkness*, I what made I called my "*Forever Lights*". They are on the right of photo 1 -- Calling it Forever Light is easier than telling my wife to bring me that two-box-thing with the white plugs. They are on the right side of the photo - the ones with a pair of 2xAA case (with switch) Velcro back-to-back and with four LEDs wired as two pairs of two so it can aim in multiple directions.


*[Photo 2]*




Photo 2 has a better view of the inside of a "forever light" - and the *Toshiba laptop power bricks* for rapid charging.


The "forever lights" are simple 3xAA ballasted to <10mA on low and 70-80mA on high switch selectable. Using a pair of 2xAA battery case velcro back to back, it takes 3xAA and the 4th slot is used for the ballast (trimpot/VR). The switch on the box with VR is On/Off and the switch on the other 2AA box is for Hi/Low. I keep 2 sets of Eneloop on stand-by for each of the 3 "Forever Light" - that is 18 cells in reserve. The silver batteries shown (in photo2) are Eneloop Glitter edition. At the start of an outage, I will be on my 20+ Energizers. I can afford to be lavish and set the LOW higher at 20mA. When I reach for my reserved Eneloops, that is the time when I lower the LOW to 10mA or below.


Unlike store-purchased stuff, this is tuned for *endurance*. No led driver or anything fancy. No power wasted except to the ballast. Just a pair of these on HI would be adequate for cooking/cleaning/eating incase my SLA's are pooped. On 10mA LOW, a set of 3AA (2000mAH) would last at least 200 hours (current draw lowers as battery drains).


*(3)* Since the CLA were recovered from phone chargers, the existing buck boards were remade (bottom of photo 2) as *boost for the 3xAA packs to power the RV lights* in without dragging around the SLA's. This was initially targeted as (better than 2AA minimag) lighting for connecting up the SLA RV lights and for connecting the SLA for charging. But I found it useful for "in a pinch" or during early parts of an outage when I can afford to be lavish - making shaving a bit easier. I have since changed that to LM2577 boost, and housed them in clear (CamCorder) video tape box. This boost solution is kind of a *5th wheel* just to give me options. *Boosting is awful inefficient* but I kept it as option since it is already made. I have since added 18650 battery holders to them so I can use 18650 or my 3xAA. Recently I purchased some 18650 flashlights as replacement for my three 2xAA MiniMags. The 18650 flashlights will likely displace my boost solution is making less and less sense other than it is kind of fun to use. I like that wide spread light better than the battery's narrow beam. Very useful when I have to check under the hood of the car or look for something misplaced inside the car.


*(4)* For no-rain no-snow fast-recharge, I use what I called *"open-hood method"* - I connected the two car-starter/booster jumper cable to the car AFTER the car is started and let it run for 15-20 minutes. That is enough juice to light the 6 G4's for a few days. While the car is running, all my CLA chargers can be working; and the CLA-to-CLA cable can charge my 3rd SLA from the CLA on the car jumper/booster pack.


*[photo 3]*






*(5) For fast charging during rain or snow* (can't do the open-hood), I do what I called a "*power visit*". I drive to the library or coffee shop few towns away with power, or drive to the in-laws. I use my 15V 3Amp (and 15V 4Amp) *Toshiba laptop power bricks converted to a CLA Vout* plug and 5.1mm Vout seen in photo2. I can pump 3A into the SLA with the power bricks, and with a CLA volt meter, once the battery is back up to 14V (1-2hours depending on how low), I switch back to slow charging with the stock charger. At the in-laws, I use my CC/CV with my 19.5V brick and I can pump in 3A unattended. At the library, I cannot use my CC/CV boards (makes them nervous). I also don't use a DMM but instead a CLA volt meter for the same reason.


The *white cable is a CLA* with both a male and female 5.1mm plug. The 5.1mm are used for RV/G4 as light splitter or as power-in for charging. You can see the CLA volt meter sitting on the white cable.


To fast charge the 3xAA "forever light", I installed a power-out (white CPU fan socket/plug). When I am at a power-visit, I use my *3xAA serial charge cable* (lower right hand corner of photo 3, *red+purple cable*). They serialize all three packs and inside the pack, 3xAA serial. I use my 13.5V 800mA power brick to charge the 9AA in serial. Proven to be able to pump 600-800mA into the AA's. The "power visits" are shorter than the three+ hours it takes to fully charge an empty cell, so over charging is not a concert.


*(6) Lastly, both of my "normal" battery chargers are CLA enabled*. The LaCrosse BC700 for NiMH, and the Opus BT-C3400 (Lithium, NiMH). I can connect them in the car while I am doing my "open hood" charging, or cross charge them from my SLA's.


----------



## Poppy

Rick NJ said:


> To fast charge the 3xAA "forever light", I installed a power-out (white CPU fan socket/plug). When I am at a power-visit, I use my *3xAA serial charge cable* (lower right hand corner of photo 3, *red+purple cable*). They serialize all three packs and inside the pack, 3xAA serial. *I use my 13.5V 800mA power brick to charge the 9AA in serial. * Proven to be able to pump 600-800mA into the AA's. The "power visits" are shorter than the three+ hours it takes to fully charge an empty cell, so over charging is not a concert.


That's a pretty clever McGyvering of items that you had lying around the house. I suppose if you had a 20V power supply, you could put 12 or 13 AA batteries in series. When I don't have battery boxes and I want to put batteries in series, I'll use little neodymium magnets to hold them together, and use a couple more to hold jumper wires with alligator clips to the ends. I can vary the number of batteries to vary the final voltage output. I hadn't considered putting them in series to charge them. The problem is that one could over charge some cells while others may not yet be fully charged.


----------



## Rick NJ

Poppy said:


> That's a pretty clever McGyvering of items that you had lying around the house. I suppose if you had a 20V power supply, you could put 12 or 13 AA batteries in series. When I don't have battery boxes and I want to put batteries in series, I'll use little neodymium magnets to hold them together, and use a couple more to hold jumper wires with alligator clips to the ends. I can vary the number of batteries to vary the final voltage output. I hadn't considered putting them in series to charge them. The problem is that one could over charge some cells while others may not yet be fully charged.



The serializing 9AA to charge is really a result of needs from those "power visit" experiences. After long waits at the library for an AC plug at the library, I still cannot use it for long. So the ability to pump as much in as possible is a requirement. Design with in mind "power visits" are short and my cells are low, so I have no worry about overcharge. During normal times, I wont charge that way.

I already configured my 3AA box with 3pin PC fan plug (white) as outlet for the boost-RV light, so making a cable with jumper-pin to serialize the 9pin became an easy thing. I even use oversize shrink tubing (black hood) at the 2pin plug to use as a cover-hood. I put a jumper on the 2pins to short any of the pairs so I can serial 9, 6, or just 3.

I make a lot of low-power connectors using those jumper pins/pin socket headers. They are cheap, and easy to plug in. When needed, I can key them to ensure polarity. Great for those rarely plug/unplug type contacts.


----------



## Poppy

Rick NJ said:


> The serializing 9AA to charge is really a result of needs from those "power visit" experiences. *After long waits at the library for an AC plug at the library,* I still cannot use it for long. So the ability to pump as much in as possible is a requirement. .


Do they allow you to bring a multiple outlet power strip? Or do they limit you to the use of ONE outlet regardless?


----------



## BloodLust

I just bought 1 of those evaporative snap towels. Haven't tested it yet. Though our climate is very humid so it might have less than stellar results.

For cooling, I have a rechargeable fan with a built in SLA battery. It's a good size too with it being around 9-10 inches. Not just a small 4-5inch portable fan. Will be getting a larger one in the 12 inch range.
It also has a few white LEDs that can act as a night light or a low output area light.

I have a few USB power banks. The good news is that USB devices have come a long way and almost everything runs off USB: cell phone and tablet charging, USB fans, LED lights, etc.
So I just keep my power banks topped up.
I have 2 USB powered fans where 1 can also run off AAs.

Just came from Hong Kong on vacation and brought my daughter to Disneyland. Since it was hot, their Disney fans that run off AA and have a water sprayer were buy 1 get 1 free so we got a couple.

I'll try to get some pictures up on here.


----------



## Poppy

braddy said:


> Most of us prefer better quality flashlights... especially when ... working on things/boarding up windows/making repairs/, reading, and cooking...


I think that braddy makes a good point, that power outages are often accompanied by storms that damage property. There may be a need to make immediate emergency repairs. 

Years ago, I bought a black and decker battery powered leaf blower, I don't recall if it was a powered by a 6v sla or 12v sla, but in either case the battery was pretty well shot after a few years, a similarly powered weed whacker faired even worse. I also, over the years had a couple of different NiCad powered drills. When new, they were good for small tasks, but as the batteries aged, the tasks had to be smaller and smaller. So when I saw that each of the major construction tool manufacturers started adding circular saws, reciprocating saws, multitools, sanders, etc, to their line of battery powered tools, I imagined that they would be good for really small jobs. I shrugged my shoulders and shook my head. Since I already have all of those tools, and more, in the 110v variety, I was not too ready to get any.

I recently had the opportunity to work on a couple of projects using a combination of 110v saws, and 18v LiIon saws, drills, impact drill/drivers, and a multi-tool. I was absolutely impressed with how well the batteries held up, and how well the tools functioned. I can definitely see how battery powered tools might be included in a power outage preparedness plan.


----------



## bykfixer

I don't mind living like Thomas Jeffersons generation did for a few days. 

We have flashlights scattered about to provide enough light to find the candles and hurricane lamps.


----------



## Rick NJ

Poppy said:


> Do they allow you to bring a multiple outlet power strip? Or do they limit you to the use of ONE outlet regardless?


 Depends. Regarding number of power-strips, the library/coffee shop employee walking around are not the technical types. Only once was there a coffee shop employee concern about the danger of current overdraw. The rest of the time, they don't care.

Bridgewater library had many table setup immediately post Sandy, but clearly not enough outlets. Coffee shops did nothing different than a normal day, so wall outlet was really difficult to get to with the library or coffee shop. In both cases, it is at least strip plug into another strip at the minimum. Mostly, it is strip to strip to strip or more. It is not so much that they stop you, it is the other customers demanding/complaining/grumping about you using up 3 outlets (on your own strip), you should allow them to use the 4th and 5th.

So before I go, I put my power-strip into my laptop bag. Visibly, they see I am using only one plug. All my battery charging "power bricks" stayed in the laptop bag. My NiMH is charged in the bag (with top open to keep it cool). Visibly, my SLA car booster packs looks like they are sitting by my other bag waiting to be plug in.


----------



## Poppy

Rick_NJ,
Thanks for bringing attention to the fact that if one goes to a coffee shop, or elsewhere, where he can plug into AC current to charge batteries, that there may be a time limit, perhaps an hour or less, and that it may be prudent to be able to fast charge batteries with as many watts as is prudent in an hour. Your solution is, for the most part, to fast charge 12v SLA batteries, and then bring them back to slow charge other batteries, or to use them to directly power some low drain, low output lights. I can see how that could work.

If I recall correctly, it has been said in the battery section of this site that many LiIon batteries can take a 1C charge. An example of a 1-Capacity charge is: "1C is 1 X the capacity of the battery. If you had a 3000 mAH battery 1 X C (3A) would be a 3 amp charge rate." Although the recommended "fast charge rate" at Battery University is 0.8C I guess it is OK to slightly stress the battery when time is of the essence! It's my understanding that they CAN be FULLY charged in an hour. My chargers however take 4-6 hours to fully charge my batteries. Except for my Ryobi 18V 50 Watt battery charger for their One+ system of tools/batteries. It'll fast charge a 5 cell battery pack in less than an hour. A 10 cell high capacity pack may take an hour, or a little more.

This was posted in the battery section:


Isaiah6113 said:


> Greetings,
> 
> 
> Was walking through Home Depot yesterday and paused at this great Milwaukee Tools display. Wonderful stuff.
> 
> 
> There was also a cutaway of one of their 18V battery packs. Here for your viewing . . .
> 
> 
> Battery Pack Innard 1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Battery Pack Innard 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's it, just a little voyeuristic fun . . .
> 
> 
> M.


----------



## Poppy

You can see in the above post that the 18V LiIon battery pack holds 5-10 cells, and as stated will charge up in an hour or less depending on the battery capacity, and level of charge. If a person had to travel to a coffee shop to obtain battery energy (by plugging into an outlet), and he wanted to maximize the number of watt hours he can get out of the wall to bring back home, fast charging a tool battery pack is one way to do it.

As mentioned above, these batteries can be used to power tools, but more than that, they may power fans, radios, lanterns, lights, and can be connected to a rigged USB output, and used as a power bank to charge other devices, such as cell or smart phones, tablets, or other batteries. One ten cell, high capacity battery is equivalent to about 30 AA eneloops.


----------



## Rick NJ

Poppy said:


> Rick_NJ,
> Thanks for bringing attention to the fact that if one goes to a coffee shop, or elsewhere, where he can plug into AC current to charge batteries, that there may be a time limit, perhaps an hour or less, and that it may be prudent to be able to fast charge batteries with as many watts as is prudent in an hour. Your solution is, for the most part, to fast charge 12v SLA batteries, and then bring them back to slow charge other batteries, or to use them to directly power some low drain, low output lights. I can see how that could work.
> 
> If I recall correctly, it has been said in the battery section of this site that many LiIon batteries can take a 1C charge. An example of a 1-Capacity charge is: "1C is 1 X the capacity of the battery. If you had a 3000 mAH battery 1 X C (3A) would be a 3 amp charge rate." Although the recommended "fast charge rate" at Battery University is 0.8C I guess it is OK to slightly stress the battery when time is of the essence! It's my understanding that they CAN be FULLY charged in an hour. My chargers however take 4-6 hours to fully charge my batteries. Except for my Ryobi 18V 50 Watt battery charger for their One+ system of tools/batteries. It'll fast charge a 5 cell battery pack in less than an hour. A 10 cell high capacity pack may take an hour, or a little more.
> 
> This was posted in the battery section:


It is usually more than an hour but less than two when they begin to bug you. "They" could be other customers or employees at the place. It is a good idea to have a power-strip with reasonable length (10feet+). It is even better if you can put the strip into your brief case along with all the power-bricks (laptop, NiMH/LiIon charger...) to avoid others thinking it belongs to the facility and demands you share it.

Indeed, for the library, my "fast charge" solution at the library is only to serialize my three 3xAA packs into 9xAA and power-brick (800mA) charge it, expecting that the hour or so would pump in about 500mA-600mA per hour so overcharge is not a problem. SLA's charging at 3A/4A are not so "fast" but better than the stock 1A-ish.

My super fast solution is my "open-hood method" which is recharging SLA by my car. It was the need during Sandy forcing me to think of an alterative. I use a pair of car jumper/booster packs (SLA inside). But even a typical low-cost car battery has 40AH and can be charged using a typical car-jumper cable. With the defroster/air-conditioning off, the car has at least 50Amp to spare. 30 minutes of that would pump in 25AH (storing 1/3 = 16AH). At 16000mAH, I can power a lot of 100mA to 150mA RV/boat ceiling lights.

Some fast-charge solution for LiIon is a good idea. I don't have LiIon for emergency when I initially worked out my solution. The three 3xAA battery-packs were what I relied on for when SLA RV/boat lighting went dry. Now that I have added LiIon 18650's, the SLA-RV/boat ceiling lights would still be my primary, my secondary may shift to 18650 based solutions. I do rely on cross-charging them from my SLA at this time.


----------



## RickZ

Poppy said:


> Let's say there is an extended power outage 5-7 days, and you are a family of four. Two adults, and two children ages 5 and 10.
> Let's say that you can recharge your batteries each day, (either using your car's battery and alternator for power, or by driving to a location that still has power). OR if you use alkalines, how many will you need for a week?
> 
> Please consider,
> Which rooms, and how many rooms would you like to have light;
> 
> How many lumens, you would like in each room;
> would there be enough light to read or play a board game without a supplemental headlamp?
> 
> What kinds of, and how many batteries would you need to be able to supply sufficient energy for five hours each night.
> 
> Additionally would each person also have a light? If so why? To use intermittently, to go to the bathroom? or to supplement a relatively low level of light (perhaps use a headlamp for reading) What would be their power needs?
> 
> How many alkalines would you need?
> 
> How many batteries would you have to charge each day?
> Eneloops AAAs, AAs,
> 18650's
> others?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> EDIT
> As I write this, the thread is at post 95.
> Overall, I'd say we did a nice job presenting what many people would be comfortable with. For the most part, we stayed away from particular lights, and spoke in generalities. That was my hope... I didn't want it to be another SHTF zombie thread. I wanted/hoped it would be instructional.
> 
> Well, we have gone beyond batteries for lights, to include, batteries for other power failure needs, although we only touched on them lightly, but things such as battery operated cooling fans, sump pump back-ups, and as a means to power one's furnace in the winter. We touched on using the car's alternator, or a small generator to charge a 12v deep cell battery/s.
> 
> Please enjoy reading through this thread, and make your contribution, if any at the end.
> Thanks for reading this far!



Cars are unreliable. It would just be impractical to rely on charging. Primary batteries are a necessity and flashlights that run off of them (low voltage requirement) either lithium on offs, or alkaline or compact alkaline.

I use rayovac 6 volt lantern/spotlight floating flashlights and they work unstoppably, 120 hours at 80 lumens is great for emergency power, shining of the ceiling I can do any indoor activity, for $6 plus $6 per battery I can run off of them for an entire year if I only use one light 5 hours per day, and 4-5 batteries. No other flashlight can compare to 6 volt lanterns and that is a fact. 

Then for personal lighting, value bright rayovacs are pretty good. 1.30 each last 40 hours on alkaline 2xAA. I would have 8 extra pluss the Hd Zink carbon that come with the four flashlights, alternatively, there are many AA flashlights, which are ideal if they work well with alkaline batteries (require low voltage) and have a lumen range of 50-100, ideally carrying 2+AA and tbh, c cell and d cell flashlights are even better, the best lumens I see are 80, plenty for anything indoors, and in a black out, enough for walking around outside if there is no light. 

Frankly I would come back to 6 volts. 120 hours at 80 lumens is tough to beat, even if it means having to lug around something 1.6 lbs in weight.

Shakable and crank flashlights can be nice too, but I don't need to spend extra effort on such things. I know this is for flashlights, but your food in this situation is critical. That much time without power could be the end of some people's food. be sure to have food that needs no cooking or refrigeration, or a generator, or cooking and refrigeration that needs no electricity.


----------



## Rick NJ

RickZ said:


> Cars are unreliable. It would just be impractical to rely on charging. Primary batteries are a necessity and flashlights that run off of them (low voltage requirement) either lithium on offs, or alkaline or compact alkaline.
> ...
> ...


You are right about it being unreliable - particularly after a storm. Cars charging requires you keep the hood open. Water and other things can get inside the engine compartment. But open-hood method really can pump a lot into an auto-battery or high-discharge SLA (using car jumper cables built into the car booster/jumper battery).

So, when appropriate, I go for the "power visits" where I can also charge all my laptops. Late at night or like gasoline-less Sandy when I just don't have that much gasoline for a 40 minute drive round trip, open-hood charging is a good thing to do.


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## RickZ

Let me clarify, if something is wrong with your car, or if you simply get a squirrel, or something, that disconnects the charge of any type, admit, you would be at a huge loss without primaries, not to mention the one shot performance of alkaline/lithium batteries out performs all rechargeable options.


----------



## sidecross

RickZ said:


> What about your battery running out. Could that system last for a whole week? Maybe on a 12v, but, not 2 weeks, not a year. If a solar event becomes enough to kill transformers, the country will be without an electric grid for a year or more. It isn't that primary batteries have to be the only reliance, but that charging things in a pinch can be rather unreliable. The marines and coast guard understand this. It's one reason I like flashlights that run on AA, or AAA, so I can use either rechargeable or primary, and not for the premium that lithium batteries cost.


Any disaster lasting longer than 2 to 3 weeks batteries and lights will become very low on the list of your needs.


----------



## braddy

Not for me, as the weeks go by, the batteries would become more important for me. I also would use the car cigarette plug for my chargers, along with starting the vehicle occasionally, and using the solar trickle chargers to keep the car's battery topped off.

I have low power solar to charge my batteries, but the car would be easier and quicker in many cases, and I would need it for my 18650 batteries and probably my Ds as well.

After a couple of weeks of no electricity, I would want my throwers for security, and I would want my Nimh to light my night time chores of food preparation, repairs, and other chores, and reading, and music, and radio, etc.

Since I live in a close to desert climate, most of the year I would want to do my hours of cooking and canning (beans and wheat and such) after dark, while spending the daytime reading and limiting most activity.


----------



## Rick NJ

RickZ said:


> What about your battery running out. Could that system last for a whole week? Maybe on a 12v, but, not 2 weeks, not a year. If a solar event becomes enough to kill transformers, the country will be without an electric grid for a year or more. It isn't that primary batteries have to be the only reliance, but that charging things in a pinch can be rather unreliable. The marines and coast guard understand this. It's one reason I like flashlights that run on AA, or AAA, so I can use either rechargeable or primary, and not for the premium that lithium batteries cost.



re: "*What about your battery running out.*"

Ah, *you missed something* in my original description of "open hood method" in reply#732 (bold and underlined below). The car is running, so the car's generator/alternator is charging the portable battery. The cars battery is not being drained.

"*For fast replenishment, I use what I called "open hood method."* When it is not raining, *I start the car*, open the hood, and connect the jumper/booster’s clip-cable directly to the car as if I am jumping the car. *Since the car is already running*, it pumps charges into the battery. For the UPS battery, I charge it via the CLA socket. According to the jumper/booster's battery level indicator, in less than 15 minutes, it will top up a half-discharged jumper/booster."


----------



## RickZ

sidecross said:


> Any disaster lasting longer than 2 to 3 weeks batteries and lights will become very low on the list of your needs.



Updated comment. Please know that electricity going out in the electric grid will almost only effect homes, other than refrigeration, you don't need to be worried about that much other than flashlights. Btw it will probably happen in the next 100-150 years. When it does there are systems in place for grocery stores and etc. But homes will be the last to regain energy. In fact electronics are the only thing that will be affected by the solar event, so water, food, gas stoves and heating, and guess what battery powered devices, will not be compromised. So you won't be able to get on the internet. Believe it or not, people would survive just fine, though driving in some cities will get stalled since some places in some city's cross light's systems will go down, so cars OF ALL THINGS, will be undrivable. Any gas you have will be the gas you get. This is also what happens in a black out, so be aware that driving becomes extremely dangerous and you will get singles in mpg.


----------



## Poppy

RickZ said:


> Cars are unreliable. It would just be impractical to rely on charging. Primary batteries are a necessity and flashlights that run off of them (low voltage requirement) either lithium on offs, or alkaline or compact alkaline.
> 
> I use rayovac 6 volt lantern/spotlight floating flashlights and they work unstoppably, 120 hours at 80 lumens is great for emergency power, shining of the ceiling I can do any indoor activity, for $6 plus $6 per battery I can run off of them for an entire year if I only use one light 5 hours per day, and 4-5 batteries. No other flashlight can compare to 6 volt lanterns and that is a fact.
> 
> Then for personal lighting, value bright rayovacs are pretty good. 1.30 each last 40 hours on alkaline 2xAA. I would have 8 extra pluss the Hd Zink carbon that come with the four flashlights, alternatively, there are many AA flashlights, which are ideal if they work well with alkaline batteries (require low voltage) and have a lumen range of 50-100, ideally carrying 2+AA and tbh, c cell and d cell flashlights are even better, the best lumens I see are 80, plenty for anything indoors, and in a black out, enough for walking around outside if there is no light.
> 
> Frankly I would come back to 6 volts. 120 hours at 80 lumens is tough to beat, even if it means having to lug around something 1.6 lbs in weight.
> 
> Shakable and crank flashlights can be nice too, but I don't need to spend extra effort on such things. I know this is for flashlights, but your food in this situation is critical. That much time without power could be the end of some people's food. be sure to have food that needs no cooking or refrigeration, or a generator, or cooking and refrigeration that needs no electricity.


Rick7,
Thank you for participating in our thread. You brought forward some interesting points, but you speak in absolute terms, and I have been corrected often enough when using absolute terms, such as (using the adverb always), that I try to NOT speak in absolute terms. 

You mentioned the "Rayovac 6V floating lantern" they don't have one listed on their website, so I couldn't check their lumens/runtimes specifications, but the Energizer one lists 50 lumens, 100 hours runtime ANSI specs. I suppose that it is possible that the Rayovac is using a more efficient emitter, but if not, then their specs are questionable. I vaguely recall the 3D Maglight specs at about 80 hours. ANSI specs, cut off the run-time when the light output drops to 10% of the original light output, so at the end of the runtime, the lantern would be putting out 8 lumens, not 80. The statement that they put out 80 lumens for 120 hours, is a mis-understanding.

When you said that you could run for an entire year on 4-5 batteries, I'd like to correct that statement so that others are not mislead, and underestimate their needs. Checking your math, we find that 5 hours a day, divided into 120 hours of light per battery = 24 days of light per battery. 24 days times 4-5 = 96 nights - 120 nights, which is 3-4 months, just about 3 seasons short of a year.

Also the little 2AA Rayovac $1.50 lights, ( I still have a few model EVB2AALED-B) are rated at 12 lumens, and 23 hours, by Rayovac. (Not 40 hours). I bought a bunch of rechargeable duracell AAs and didn't have enough lights to put them in, so I bought a few. They are good for the reasons that you stated. I keep them around for those reasons, or to give away to others during an outage.

The 6V batteries are made with either 4 D cells, or the about 20% longer 4 F cells. I have recently been impressed by the capacity of D cell alkalines when drained under low load. Your enamoration of the 6V cell is not lost on me. However, I gave away my 6V lights that take the coil spring 6V batteries. I found that it wasn't too long before they dropped off in brightness and that they ended up being too big a light for too little light. Also the cells were not rechargeable. OTOH, 40 lumens tail standing in an otherwise dark room can be very comforting. FWIW, in comparison I have a Convoy S2 driven at 1400ma, that'll output 40 lumens for about 40 hours, on a single 18650 battery.

Not too long ago I posted calculations based on HKJ's capacity graphs of various batteries, that showed how well the D cells perform when under low load. A 6V battery has four of them in series, and it should be expected to perform well, under low load. Under high load, however, it will perform as poorly as the other alkaline cells.


----------



## braddy

I just found a high quality Dorcy "6V floating lantern" at a thrift shop in a rich area and it uses the 4D holder. 

I don't follow how it could produce 120 hours at 80 lumens, but since mine had 4 D batteries in it that were dated good until May of 2011, I decided to replace the bulb with a Dorcy 40 lumens, 4.5v to 6v led, and see what the run time would be.

The D batteries started at 1.46v, dated use by May 2011, and I turned them on, on September 23rd, they are still running fine on October 9, and most non-flashlight people would consider the light pretty good, being very narrow with dim flood, but good throw, which is a less bright version of it's normal self.

I get enough ceiling bounce that I have to move it from on top of the refrigerator (to catch when it dies) every night , to keep it from annoying me back in my bedroom, down the hall.


----------



## Treeguy

Poppy said:


> Rick7,
> Thank you for participating in our thread. You brought forward some interesting points, but you speak in absolute terms, and I have been corrected often enough when using absolute terms, such as (using the adverb always), that I try to NOT speak in absolute terms.
> 
> _(Edited to save space.)_



Hey Poppy, good post.

Hit the freezing point here this morning, and it's time for winter prepping.

Fresh gas and stabilizer in the generator and a run every weekend with a load to keep it happy. And I bring home an extra food item every day or two and stuff it in the back of the cupboard. Waiting for the wife to notice and ask why we have so much peanut butter and oatmeal, and why there are twenty cans of tuna fish piled up back there. 
_
"Because I love you dear, that's why." _

Off to Home Depot this morning for a few items, and maybe some AAs. I have some Eneloops, but good to have some Duracells too.


----------



## braddy

I have a Pak-lite that runs on a 9 volt battery at a claimed 600 to 1200 hours depending on if the battery is Alkaline or lithium, I can also run it on AAs using these AA holders.

How long would a Pak-lite run at high, and low, using 6 Alkalines, or 7 (or 8) Eneloops?

These come in 6 or 8 cell versions, the 8 is good for using a dummy AA to moderate the voltage of freshly charged NiMH.


----------



## bluemax_1

Folks have tested those Pak-Lites and the runtimes are pretty ridiculous (6+months constant on low). I have a few myself. The price for what they are is also a little ridiculous, but not when I take into account what they can do, and they're excellent battery vampires. 

IIRC, I read about someone testing one to run constantly for over a week on low on a 9 volt that was drained enough to trigger a smoke detector's low battery beep.

I can't recall how long they'll run on High mode though, but I'm sure Google could pull up real world runtime test results.


Max


----------



## Rick NJ

Darn! A thought just occur to me.

With electric cars becoming more common, there goes my "open hood charging" using the car's alternator! And simple outage would mean no driving the next day!


----------



## Poppy

I don't know what the run-time is for the Pak-Lites, but the AA battery has about 2500mah capacity, and the 9V has about 600mah. Six AA's should have about 4.16 times the capacity of the 9V and should power the pak-lite 4.16 times as long as the 9V.

An interesting fact is that alkaline batteries recover a little bit when permitted to rest. Therefore you would get more run time out of your batteries, and lights if you only run them when needed, and not 24 hours a day. 


braddy said:


> I have a Pak-lite that runs on a 9 volt battery at a claimed 600 to 1200 hours depending on if the battery is Alkaline or lithium, I can also run it on AAs using these AA holders.
> 
> How long would a Pak-lite run at high, and low, using 6 Alkalines, or 7 (or 8) Eneloops?
> 
> These come in 6 or 8 cell versions, the 8 is good for using a dummy AA to moderate the voltage of freshly charged NiMH.


----------



## reppans

9V's are an important emergency cell. I mentioned this earlier in this thread, but I made a point of checking battery available during the week-long Sandy power outages, and only 9Vs and button cells remained readily available in stores throughout. 

However, I prefer good moonlight AA flashlights over my Pak-Lites, and of course, I EDC them anyways. I have a few that should match the lumen-hours of the unregulated PL, and on a 9V (6xAAAAs). I know the PL will "run" a lot longer than its 600 hour spec, but I suspect at unregulated outputs so dim, a tritium vial might be a better alternative. 

The advantage of the AA moonlight flashlight, other than being a proper flashlight of course, is that it is easily rigged to run on any single 9V, AAA, C, and D cell you can scavenge, at least in a tail-standing lantern mode. Throw in a well regulated 0.9-4.2v boost/buck driver (eg, Quark) and you can add all the lithium-based cells too - I think that covers all cylindrical batteries. I'll have to concede button cells to the PL though, a 1.3ma draw on 3x3v in series, is a lot more viable than a 4ma draw on a single 3v button cell. 

Poppy sold me on the virtues of the D-cell as an emergency battery, it has over 5x the watt-hrs of energy as the 9v, costs ~$1 a cell, and has a 10yr shelf life. Top it with an efficient AA moonlight flashlight head, and you can have 2000+ hour, regulated, "PakLite" lantern.


----------



## braddy

I like the D battery as well, and the light described in post 759 is still running pretty strong, and has been on continuously since September 23rd.

I have 20 Tenergy D cells of two types, and D cell flashlights ranging from the old Lightwave 4000 that advertised a 1 month run time, to my Fenix TK70, to Fulton Army lights and decades old flashlights that all have Dorcy 3volt led bulbs in storage for them, The Dorcy 6 volt lantern in post 759 will be a nice, long running, thrower.


----------



## Poppy

braddy said:


> I just found a high quality Dorcy "6V floating lantern" at a thrift shop in a rich area and it uses the 4D holder.
> 
> I don't follow how it could produce 120 hours at 80 lumens, but since mine had 4 D batteries in it that were dated good until May of 2011,* I decided to replace the bulb with a Dorcy 40 lumens, 4.5v to 6v led, and see what the run time would be.
> *
> The D batteries started at 1.46v, dated use by May 2011, and I turned them on, on September 23rd, they are still running fine on October 9, and most non-flashlight people would consider the light pretty good, being very narrow with dim flood, but good throw, which is a less bright version of it's normal self.
> 
> I get enough ceiling bounce that I have to move it from on top of the refrigerator (to catch when it dies) every night , to keep it from annoying me back in my bedroom, down the hall.


Braddy,
I am interested in seeing how long this baby runs.
I have one of those 4.5 - 6V dorsey or equivalent bulbs, and if memory serves me correctly, I put it into my 3D mag, and at 4.5 V it wasn't any brighter than the incan bulb I pulled out, of course it would give extended run times in comparison, but otherwise it was quite unimpressive. I added another battery, so that it was at 6V and was pleasantly surprised at the marked improvement in brightness. IMHO it is OK for a 4D light/lantern, but instead of using it to upgrade a 3 cell light, the money would be better spent getting a new light.


----------



## braddy

I spent $4.08 on my Dorcy led bulb, so getting 500 to 800 hours of run time out of this 4D thrower gives me a nice backup light to my preferred Fenix, Nitecore, and Olight flashlights, and I don't mind running old Alkalines in it or lending it out in emergencies with the Alkalines in it. I very much wanted one of these style of lights, and this is the best looking, best made version of one that I have ever seen, and it cost me $2.00, the battery holder inside of the plastic housing also means that an Alkaline leak is no problem for me, especially since I have extras of that 4D cell/6volt battery adapter, I don't want to use Alkaline D batteries in my Lightwave 4000 or TK70, or my 300 Lumens Ultra Bright LED Lantern w/ Built-in Flashlight (Nitefighter).

The Dorcy light/bulb/battery combination far exceeds my expectations, but I will be putting the incandescent bulb back in it, and putting the tiny Dorcy led bulb with my EMP protected gear. This light was intended to sit on a shelf.


----------



## StarHalo

Battery-powered fan update: I got a copy of the O2Cool 5" fan, the higher-rated non-USB one (the USB model had ratings that were simply too low.) Airflow is good for roughly three feet like a desk fan, but unlike a desk fan, there's not much to hear - it sounds like the exhaust fan on a cash register or recent PC case, a mild hum with a touch of white noise and that's it. My earlier recommendation for a battery powered fan for sleeping background noise is nil, this fan doesn't provide it. Power is provided by 2D cells, I am of course using *2xAA Eneloops in D sleeves*; I was enthused to provide a runtime number, but I'm *currently on hour five* of steady RPM and I have to sleep at some point, so full runtime testing will have to wait until next weekend. Overall, I'm not sure how I lived without one of these before, and this is only the first night I've used it. I made dinner on the stove this evening, and having a fan right there on the counter proving a cool jet of fresh air was so helpful and obvious that it would seem silly without it now.


----------



## braddy

I will be buying one of those, it could become important during a summer blackout.


----------



## Poppy

October 19, 2015

Ladies and Gentlemen of CPF,
Please excuse this little bump, but I have been waiting for this for a few weeks: This thread has just passed 100,000 views.

I am sure THAT means nothing to anyone but me, but for some silly reason, it feels like an accomplishment. 

Thanks to all who have followed this thread and have contributed to it. You have made it place on the top page of google, when-ever someone googles power outage. 

I think I'll celebrate tonight by practicing a mini-power outage tonight at home. 

Thanks, to all! :thumbsup:

Poppy


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

+1 for practicing mini-power outages!


----------



## Burgess

:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs


:grouphug:


:goodjob:


lovecpf
_


----------



## braddy

A couple of attempts to get a beamshot of my Dorcy 4D floating lantern light that has been running since September 23rd.


This doesn't do it justice, I tried to put it into a corner to show the flood along with the center.





This is one with me shining it up at an angle, trying to show the extremely wide flood, outside of that tight center beam, the flash went off in this one.






Here is another one about 18inches from the ceiling, and close to the wall.


----------



## BloodLust

Poppy said:


> Braddy,
> I am interested in seeing how long this baby runs.
> I have one of those 4.5 - 6V dorsey or equivalent bulbs, and if memory serves me correctly, I put it into my 3D mag, and at 4.5 V it wasn't any brighter than the incan bulb I pulled out, of course it would give extended run times in comparison, but otherwise it was quite unimpressive. I added another battery, so that it was at 6V and was pleasantly surprised at the marked improvement in brightness. IMHO it is OK for a 4D light/lantern, but instead of using it to upgrade a 3 cell light, the money would be better spent getting a new light.



I have 1 installed in my 3D Maglite and 1 in an old Petzl Saxo Aqua dive light with 4x AA.
The Maglite is just there in the kitchen.
Since I don't dive as much, and don't do much night diving, I didn't see the need to spend on a new dive light so I just bought the LED module and put it in the Petzl.
It's a decent backup light. It also converts into a headlamp so it can be a loaner.

----------

Congratulations, Poppy.
This is one of my favorite threads here. Especially since it hits close to home being in a hurricane/typhoon prone area during the season.

Just a few days ago, there was a 5.4 earthquake smack in the middle of a cat.4 hurricane.
When it rains, it really pours... and shakes!


----------



## RickZ

Poppy said:


> Rick7,
> Thank you for participating in our thread. You brought forward some interesting points, but you speak in absolute terms, and I have been corrected often enough when using absolute terms, such as (using the adverb always), that I try to NOT speak in absolute terms.
> 
> You mentioned the "Rayovac 6V floating lantern" they don't have one listed on their website, so I couldn't check their lumens/runtimes specifications, but the Energizer one lists 50 lumens, 100 hours runtime ANSI specs. I suppose that it is possible that the Rayovac is using a more efficient emitter, but if not, then their specs are questionable. I vaguely recall the 3D Maglight specs at about 80 hours. ANSI specs, cut off the run-time when the light output drops to 10% of the original light output, so at the end of the runtime, the lantern would be putting out 8 lumens, not 80. The statement that they put out 80 lumens for 120 hours, is a mis-understanding.
> 
> When you said that you could run for an entire year on 4-5 batteries, I'd like to correct that statement so that others are not mislead, and underestimate their needs. Checking your math, we find that 5 hours a day, divided into 120 hours of light per battery = 24 days of light per battery. 24 days times 4-5 = 96 nights - 120 nights, which is 3-4 months, just about 3 seasons short of a year.
> 
> Also the little 2AA Rayovac $1.50 lights, ( I still have a few model EVB2AALED-B) are rated at 12 lumens, and 23 hours, by Rayovac. (Not 40 hours). I bought a bunch of rechargeable duracell AAs and didn't have enough lights to put them in, so I bought a few. They are good for the reasons that you stated. I keep them around for those reasons, or to give away to others during an outage.
> 
> The 6V batteries are made with either 4 D cells, or the about 20% longer 4 F cells. I have recently been impressed by the capacity of D cell alkalines when drained under low load. Your enamoration of the 6V cell is not lost on me. However, I gave away my 6V lights that take the coil spring 6V batteries. I found that it wasn't too long before they dropped off in brightness and that they ended up being too big a light for too little light. Also the cells were not rechargeable. OTOH, 40 lumens tail standing in an otherwise dark room can be very comforting. FWIW, in comparison I have a Convoy S2 driven at 1400ma, that'll output 40 lumens for about 40 hours, on a single 18650 battery.
> 
> Not too long ago I posted calculations based on HKJ's capacity graphs of various batteries, that showed how well the D cells perform when under low load. A 6V battery has four of them in series, and it should be expected to perform well, under low load. Under high load, however, it will perform as poorly as the other alkaline cells.



a 6 volt battery, does not have d cells, it has f cells, which are almost twice the capacity. The energizer flashlight runs on carbon Zink six volts, so with alkaline you can expect to double that, plus, you have to understand multiple emitters are way more efficient than a single emitter.

Further, the value bright are also rated off of carbon zink, I find it cute you enjoy breaking things down, but please do so with actual results not just some pathetic poking around on Google.

I could continue to make statements but what I'll leave it at is that, for me, these flashlights make the most sense. If you have lots of money you want to spend on emergency flashlights, then you can buy whatever you want. If you are limited to 20-50$, then by all means these flashlights and similar outperform the competition completely.


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

Rick NJ said:


> No need to thank me but you are welcome. It is fun sharing experience - particularly one as traumatic as Sandy.*
> 
> The lack of gasoline took me by surprise also.* If I recall right, it was the one-two punch of refineries damaged and the flooding taking out gas stations. So the few remaining functional stations ran out of gas very soon and resupply did not come due to the damaged infrastructure.
> 
> *The lesson I took from Sandy is, first I need to judge how wide the outage is*. If it was like Sandy, the library and coffee shop was so filled that not all "power visits" resulted in plug-in time - (too many people in line, etc). If that is the case next time, we need to go into deep conservation mode early. In this case, *the budget for duration between visits is 1/2 what I can fill with one visit*. So, if the next visit results in no plug in time, I am not left in darkness.
> 
> *The second lesson is, plan not base on what I have but what I can refill in an hour* - it is all how much I can pump into the storage (SLA, NiMH, Lithium...) So, chargers are critical. The stock 1A charger and stock 300mA charger for my car jump/boost SLA's are useless for this purpose. Solution is the 15V 3A laptop PSU to pump directly into the SLA via CLA till 14V with CLA volt monitor, then switch to 14V 1A power brick. The slow charging NiMH consumer chargers is useless. Even the BC700 (700mA 4AA) is not enough. Solution is the additional serial 9xAA serial "charger" (plugs in my three 3xAA light) via 800mA 14.5V power-brick to supplement.
> 
> For a 1-2 hour "power visit" with approx 1 hour plug in time:
> - My laptop PSU charging 3 SLA's in parallel (30WH in, storing 20WH). That is 20 hours of 1W RV dome light for cooking and washing. Good for almost a week if I run single 1W verses multiple. The SLA will charge the phones, so I don't really have 20WH just for lights.
> - My serial 9xAA charge method and my pair of AA charger charging a total of 21 AA's. Estimated 500mAH stored in each. That is 7 sets of 3AA each at 500mAH. That would run my so called "forever light" at LOW for over a month or HIGH (3AA at 50mA) for 70 hours. So while not bright, I would not be in total darkness. for a week. I can even put it in my ultra high mode (80mA) if I feel I can be lavish.
> - My 18650's supplement are new, so I have not tested them under that plan. I could pump in 1A for four 18650's resulting in around 500mAH to 700mAH stored. That would be mobile 1W RV light for a few hours. (Via boost, I would be drawing about 600mA @ 3.7V to drive ~ [email protected])
> 
> So light-wise, I am ok for a week with one "power visit", and I am in very good shape if I can have two "power visits" in a week.* Deep winter cold without heat - that really is the big problem.*




Rick, I think to solve all my power outage problems maybe I can buy the house next to you, or the one next to Poppy! hehe

Really enjoy the contributions the both of you make to this thread, and a few others here.

I wish I was as technically talented as you and Poppy, but I am learning, and appreciative.

- LetThereBeLight!


----------



## rpm00

I've been building up a similar system. I got my 12V 76Ah AGM battery. It's on a BatteryMinder trickle charger 24h. Just ordered a few of those car 12v lights that were described above. Got a couple cigarette plugs with switches on them that I can wire up to the little led lights. Now to put it all together. 

I also just ordered the biolite nanogrid because it looks intriguing. Will let you know how it is.


----------



## Poppy

RickZ said:


> a 6 volt battery, does not have d cells, it has f cells, which are almost twice the capacity.


 Energizer lists two 6 volt lantern alkaline batteries; 528-4D, and 528-4F. The 4F is about a third heavier than the 4D... 885g vs 665 grams. Please see...http://data.energizer.com/QuickSearch_Action.aspx?group=1&name=Energizer Alkaline


If the 4D, and the 4F batteries have the same chemical composition, then using simple math, one can determine that the Fs have about 1/3rd more capacity, not double the capacity.


Something I found interesting is that at the Rayovac site, http://www.rayovac.com/batteries/lantern-batteries.aspx 
they sell their 4 D-cell lantern battery, and 4 F-cell lantern battery at the same price. 


Rayovac Alkaline D-Cell 6-Volt Spring Terminals
Lantern Batteries
6 Volt Spring Terminals Alkaline D Cell
$6.99


Rayovac Alkaline F-Cell 6-Volt Spring Terminals
Lantern Batteries
6 Volt Spring Terminals Alkaline F Cell
$6.99



> The energizer flashlight runs on carbon Zink six volts, so with alkaline you can expect to double that, plus, you have to understand multiple emitters are way more efficient than a single emitter.
> 
> Further, the value bright are also rated off of carbon zink, I find it cute you enjoy breaking things down, but please do so with actual results not just some pathetic poking around on Google.


I'll agree that the rayovac value lights are PACKAGED with carbon zinc batteries, however I have not read anywhere that the advertised run-times are calculated with carbon zinc batteries. Can you please site a reference that confirms your statement? In the meantime, I'll continue to believe that the advertised run-times are based on alkaline cells. That is based on run-time tests I have performed on the rayovac 2AA indestructible light, and the Ozark Trail 3D lantern.

I bought a 3D cell Ozark Trail lantern with a single high efficiency Cree emiter. I wanted to see how well the lantern performed with both alkaline and carbon zinc D cells. I measured raw data, and calculated lumen output based on the energy used, and the cree data sheet for the XB-D emitter.
Here is the raw data, you can draw your own conclusions.

Advertised run-times 57 hours high... 191 hours low. 300 high / 65 low outputs.

With C-Zn batteries, the output was less than 3 lumens in less than 40 hours on high. Alkalines did much better, and may actually prove the advertised run-times to be accurate. They however will perform with a typical initial rapid decline in output, and then a more gradual decline as the batteries become depleted.

My conclusion based upon the above study is that it *may* be possible to get 200 hours with a 4F cell 6V alkaline battery if it starts at 80 lumens. However the output will have declined to 8 lumens at the end of the test, and a good part of the run-time will be at the 10-30 lumen range. That's why I stated earlier that 30 lumens in a darkened room can be comfortable.



> I could continue to make statements but what I'll leave it at is that, for me, these flashlights make the most sense. If you have lots of money you want to spend on emergency flashlights, then you can buy whatever you want. If you are limited to 20-50$, then by all means these flashlights and similar outperform the competition completely.



Hey... I never said that they were a bad choice, but simply that some of your statements, and especially your math was wrong/misleading. I threw away two multiple emitter dorsey 6V lights/lanterns when the emitters died one after another. I gave away an energizer single emitter one, that was more reliable, but IMO, was really better suited for power outage lighting than for general purposes.

When you said... 


> you have to understand multiple emitters are way more efficient than a single emitter.


my first thought was ... hmmm, really? Those 9 led dollar store lights are more efficient than an Eagletac with a single Cree in it? Then I thought about the comparison that I made between the Energizer folding lantern with 6 surface mounted leds, and a "satellite" lantern with 24 leds, and the 6 led energizer is MUCH more efficient than the 24 led satellite. Is that because the energizer has a better quality driver?. better quality LEDs?, or because 6 is better than 24? I don't know. It does show however, that more does not necessarily mean better.

Please share with us some "real life experience", not some "pathetic poking around on Google," that (with lights putting out 80 lumens or less) multiple LEDs are more efficient than a single LED.


----------



## Rick NJ

LetThereBeLight! said:


> Rick, I think to solve all my power outage problems maybe I can buy the house next to you, or the one next to Poppy! hehe
> 
> Really enjoy the contributions the both of you make to this thread, and a few others here.
> 
> I wish I was as technically talented as you and Poppy, but I am learning, and appreciative.
> 
> - LetThereBeLight!




Thanks for the good words. We just got hit by Sandy (Poppy and I are both in NJ) so we had a little time to think about it before.





rpm00 said:


> I've been building up a similar system. I got my 12V 76Ah AGM battery. It's on a BatteryMinder trickle charger 24h. Just ordered a few of those car 12v lights that were described above. Got a couple cigarette plugs with switches on them that I can wire up to the little led lights. Now to put it all together.
> 
> I also just ordered the biolite nanogrid because it looks intriguing. Will let you know how it is.



Unless you plan to do a fix install, dont forget to keep some painter's masking tape in the emergency supply - great to tape the emergency lights and other things using painter's masking tape - they hold well and will not leave any residues.


----------



## Grijon

A most excellent response in post #779, Poppy.


----------



## Poppy

rpm00 said:


> I've been building up a similar system. I got my 12V 76Ah AGM battery. *It's on a BatteryMinder trickle charger 24h. * Just ordered a few of those car 12v lights that were described above. Got a couple cigarette plugs with switches on them that I can wire up to the little led lights. Now to put it all together.
> 
> I also just ordered the biolite nanogrid because it looks intriguing. Will let you know how it is.


A friend of mine keeps his batteries topped off and avoids over charging them by putting his charger on a timer so that it goes on for a few (maybe 15) minutes a day.



Grijon said:


> A most excellent response in post #779, Poppy.


Thanks for the props Grijon :thumbsup:


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Looks like power outages are going to be very likely in the future. The EPA has passed a Clean Power Plan that will basically shut down all coal fired power plants and likely all natural gas plants as well. This is in order to reach the government's impossible goal of reducing CO2 emissions from existing power plants by 32% by 2030. This can only be done by closing all fossil fuel power plants (gas, coal, natural gas) and switching over to solar and wind. Even then, at night, you can't depend on solely wind to keep the lights on. This law requires new and existing coal plants to reduce CO2 by 7% and natural gas plants to reduce by 22%. To comply with the deadlines, power companies would have to shut down a mimimum of about 11,000 Megawatts of coal fired plants by 2016. California runs on natural gas power plants mainly. Yes, there is some solar and wind power in the mix, but imagine what it would cost to replace all those fairly new natural gas plants to solar and wind and how long it would take to do it. Prepare for brownouts, because there is no way to replace the amount of power lost by shutting down these plants in the time allotted. We don't have to wait for a coronal mass ejection from the sun or an emp from our enemies to destroy the grid. Our government is dismantling our electric grid as we speak. Here's a news article about what is happening. 
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-on-epas-clean-power-plan-rule/?intcmp=hplnws
24 states are suing the EPA over this, but the damage could already be done before they even get a day in court to fight it.


----------



## more_vampires

Oh well. I'm ready for it. There's just one problem...

StarHalo, how are we going to keep the beer cold?  Just switch to Guiness? 

Seriously though, wouldn't it be better to just mandate that all residences have an off-the-grid power requirement? It would cause fewer lawsuits. :shrug:

Most people don't seem to understand power generation. You can't just shut down all the nuke plants AND shut down all the fossil fuel plants. There'll be next to nothing left in most areas. Not in my backyard? That's going to be a poorly lit backyard if we shut down all power generation.

Hydroelectric, contrary to popular belief, is one of the more dangerous power generation methods.

From 2013
http://www.ibtimes.com/dangers-relying-hydroelectric-power-brazils-lesson-1056722


> Newspapers had already been screaming in headlines that Brazil would have to ration electricity as it had threatened to do in 2001, the last time water at dams had reached such critical levels. Back then, the government told consumers that they would be fined and could have their power cut off if they consumed too much electricity. Panicked Brazilians rushed to buy compact fluorescent light bulbs to replace their inefficient incandescent bulbs.



Brazil is about 80% hydroelectric. Good for them, but a serious draught leads to catastrophe. Also, CFL bulbs are like a bandaid on an artery bleed. A true solution is going to take a little more than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banqiao_Dam


> The *Banqiao Reservoir Dam* (simplified Chinese: 板桥水库大坝; traditional Chinese: 板橋水庫大壩; pinyin: _Bǎnqiáo Shuǐkù Dàbà_) is a dam on the *River Ru* in Zhumadian City, Henan province, China. Its failure in 1975 caused more casualties than any other dam failure in history. It was subsequently rebuilt.
> 
> The Banqiao dam and *Shimantan Reservoir Dam* (simplified Chinese: 石漫滩水库大坝; traditional Chinese: 石漫灘水庫大壩; pinyin: _Shímàntān Shuǐkù Dàbà_) are among 62 dams in Zhumadian that failed catastrophically or were intentionally destroyed in 1975 during Typhoon Nina.
> The dam failures *killed an estimated 171,000 people;[1]​ 11 million people lost their homes.* It also caused the sudden loss of 18 GW of power[_citation needed_]​, the power output equivalent of roughly 9 very large modern coal-fired thermal power stations.



Any power generation can fail, the catastrophe does not need to be measured in human lives. Something as simple as the 2009 Sayano-Sushenskaya power station accident could cause blackouts, brownouts, and problems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Sayano–Shushenskaya_power_station_accident

Note that when it happened, they switched to... you guessed it... fossil fuel power generation.

We're hooked worse than any addict on fossil fuels, when we need a fix... guess what we'll go back to. The EPA is simply trying to take away options that may very well be needed.

Even solar is vulnerable to something like a major volcanic eruption (nuclear winter.)

Power generation is not and can not be one single technology, but the full spectrum of human knowledge and experience.


----------



## MAD777

How about stationary bicycles hooked up to generators in every home. Think of the side benefits: practically eliminate obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc. And anyone can have all the power they are willing to work for.


----------



## Grijon

MAD777 said:


> How about stationary bicycles hooked up to generators in every home. Think of the side benefits: practically eliminate obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc. And anyone can have all the power they are willing to work for.




I LOVE this!


----------



## more_vampires

Lol, M7!

Ever actually tried it? The visitor's center of a nuke plant I visited had an exercise bike hooked to a panel. You could choose to drive a 30 watt, 60 watt, and 100 watt incan bulb. Man, did that get old fast!

It really puts power in perspective when you're trying to use your breakfast via your leg muscles to light a room. HVAC? Forget about it! No way.

It's always kind of amused me to think about gyms with their fleets of exercise bikes trickling into the power grid though. 

America's New Energy Policy: No work, no electricity. Get up off the damned couch!


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

MAD777 said:


> How about stationary bicycles hooked up to generators in every home. Think of the side benefits: practically eliminate obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc. And anyone can have all the power they are willing to work for.



How about we pass a law stating that any new law only applies to the people who passed it for the first 30 days. After that, they can decide to repeal it before citizens suffer or let it go through if it's actually positive for the people. In this case, Most of Congress would have heart attacks and be replaced by smarter people who would overturn the law.

By the way, I heard a rumor that there was an explosion at the world's largest coal fired power plant (Plant Bowen in Georgia) today and that the plant is shut down. If you live in the area, let us know if you need that bike generator right now. The rumor is from here: http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=410277


----------



## more_vampires

> By the way, I heard a rumor that there was an explosion at the world's largest coal fired power plant (Plant Bowen in Georgia)


I think someone reposted a story from 2013, this is assuming that it didn't happen again.

http://www.power-eng.com/articles/2...rted-at-georgia-coal-fired-power-plant-e.html
http://www.power-eng.com/articles/2...r-plant-explosion-caused-by-worker-error.html

I smell hoax. Bowen is nowhere near the largest coal burner on the planet. It was only 3166MW when it last blew in 2013.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_power_stations_in_the_world#Coal

RankStationCountryLocationCapacity (MW)Ref1.Taichung Taiwan




24°12′46″N 120°28′52″E5,500[29]​[30]​2.Bełchatów Poland



51°15′59″N 19°19′50″E5,420[34]​3.Tuoketuo China



40°11′49″N 111°21′52″E5,400[35]​4.Guodian Beilun China



29°56′37″N 121°48′57″E5,000[36]​3.Waigaoqiao China



31°21′21″N 121°35′54″E5,000[37]​5.Guohoa Taishan China



21°52′00″N 112°55′22″E5,000[38]​6.Jiaxing China



30°37′46″N 121°8′49″E5,000[39]​7.Paiton Indonesia



7°42′43″S 113°34′48″E4,870[40]​[41]​8.Yingkou China



40°18′17″N 122°06′17″E4,8409.Mundra India



22°49′25″N 69°33′00″E4,62010.Shengtou China



39°21′51″N 112°33′04″E4,600


----------



## MAD777

more_vampires said:


> ... The visitor's center of a nuke plant I visited had an exercise bike hooked to a panel. You could choose to drive a 30 watt, 60 watt, and 100 watt incan bulb. Man, did that get old fast!
> 
> It really puts power in perspective when you're trying to use your breakfast via your leg muscles to light a room. HVAC? Forget about it! No way....



I look at it this way. Imagine pushing a 4000 pound automobile a distance of 25 miles. One gallon of gas will do that. Picture that much energy in a milk jug. And, as I remember, a car engine is only about 30% efficient!

To replace that kind of energy isn't easy. But we need to be working harder on it than we are. Because somewhere down the line, our descendents aren't going to have a choice.


----------



## sidecross

MAD777 said:


> I look at it this way. Imagine pushing a 4000 pound automobile a distance of 25 miles. One gallon of gas will do that. Picture that much energy in a milk jug. And, as I remember, a car engine is only about 30% efficient!
> 
> To replace that kind of energy isn't easy. But we need to be working harder on it than we are. Because somewhere down the line, our descendents aren't going to have a choice.


Engine efficiency has been ratted at a loss of at least 62.4% at the engine and 80% loss or more by the time energy is applied at wheels and tires.


----------



## markr6

MAD777 said:


> I look at it this way. Imagine pushing a 4000 pound automobile a distance of 25 miles. One gallon of gas will do that. Picture that much energy in a milk jug. And, as I remember, a car engine is only about 30% efficient!



And 100% more fun than actually having to push yourself!


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

more_vampires said:


> I think someone reposted a story from 2013, this is assuming that it didn't happen again.
> 
> http://www.power-eng.com/articles/2...rted-at-georgia-coal-fired-power-plant-e.html
> http://www.power-eng.com/articles/2...r-plant-explosion-caused-by-worker-error.html
> 
> I smell hoax. Bowen is nowhere near the largest coal burner on the planet. It was only 3166MW when it last blew in 2013.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_power_stations_in_the_world#Coal
> 
> RankStationCountryLocationCapacity (MW)Ref1.Taichung Taiwan
> 
> 
> 
> 24°12′46″N 120°28′52″E5,500[29]​[30]​2.Bełchatów Poland
> 
> 
> 
> 51°15′59″N 19°19′50″E5,420[34]​3.Tuoketuo China
> 
> 
> 
> 40°11′49″N 111°21′52″E5,400[35]​4.Guodian Beilun China
> 
> 
> 
> 29°56′37″N 121°48′57″E5,000[36]​3.Waigaoqiao China
> 
> 
> 
> 31°21′21″N 121°35′54″E
> 5,000[37]​5.Guohoa Taishan China
> 
> 
> 
> 21°52′00″N 112°55′22″E5,000[38]​6.Jiaxing China
> 
> 
> 
> 30°37′46″N 121°8′49″E5,000[39]​7.Paiton Indonesia
> 
> 
> 
> 7°42′43″S 113°34′48″E4,870[40]​[41]​8.Yingkou China
> 
> 
> 
> 40°18′17″N 122°06′17″E4,8409.Mundra India
> 
> 
> 
> 22°49′25″N 69°33′00″E4,62010.Shengtou China
> 
> 
> 
> 39°21′51″N 112°33′04″E4,600



Sorry, I was using the words from the guy's post on Survivalistboards.com. You're right, it isn't the largest coal fired plant in the world. It is the largest operating coal fired plant in the western hemisphere. I couldn't find the link myself when trying to go back to it. It seems you need to be a member of that forum to access it. I also haven't found it yet by going back to that website. This is why I posted it as a rumor. I couldn't find any current articles to substantiate the claim. Only time will tell if that post was from someone working there with firsthand knowledge of the incident or if it never happened. Soon, if it did happen, you should hear about the plant closure in the news. I would expect people in the area might complain about brownouts if that plant was a significant portion of their energy mix. If OSHA is involved, there is an investigation and the site would be closed until the investigation is over. I had seen one news article about the event, but it denied there was an explosion.


----------



## more_vampires

@HoF:
If Bowden really did blow again, methinks the Fed ERC is going to say they're over done. Note these guys supercede OSHA in cases like that.

https://www.usa.gov/federal-agencies/federal-energy-regulatory-commission

Stuff like this can easily cause power outages and "rolling blackouts."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_blackout
This is when some areas are shut down and the shut down is rotated around an area. It's like a "regularly scheduled power outage." Not too common in the USA, outside of California.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/california-power2.htm


> When California's power supply dips, the California Independent System Operator (Cal-ISO), who manages the state's power grid, notifies the California utilities that there must be a load reduction on the statewide power system. The individual utilities than determine how the load reduction will be accomplished. Usually, it's done by blacking out certain blocks in their area for hours at a time.
> 
> California ISO is an independent agency charged with managing the flow of electricity along the long-distance, high-voltage power lines that make up the bulk of California's transmissions systems. It also has the task of safeguarding the reliable delivery of electricity. The Cal-ISO does not, as some reports have stated, order black outs. Only local electric suppliers have the ability to do that.
> Rolling blackouts are typically used only in severe cases, and are designed to prevent a complete collapse of the state's power system. It signals that the state's operating reserves have fallen below 1.5 percent.



Please note that *blackouts can happen due to corruption!

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis


> California had an installed generating capacity of 45GW. At the time of the blackouts, demand was 28GW. A demand supply gap was created by energy companies, mainly Enron, to create an artificial shortage. Energy traders took power plants offline for maintenance in days of peak demand to increase the price.[9]​[10]​ Traders were thus able to sell power at premium prices, sometimes up to a factor of 20 times its normal value. Because the state government had a cap on retail electricity charges, this market manipulation squeezed the industry's revenue margins, causing the bankruptcy of Pacific Gas and Electric Company (PG&E) and near bankruptcy of Southern California Edison in early 2001.[11]​
> 
> The financial crisis was possible because of partial deregulation legislation instituted in 1996 by the California Legislature (AB 1890) and Governor Pete Wilson. Enron took advantage of this deregulation and was involved in economic withholding and inflated price bidding in California's spot markets.[12]​
> The crisis cost between $40 to $45 billion.[13]​


----------



## MrJino

I'm single, but have at least 5 or 6 lights, including a cheap usb hand crank lantern which doubles as flashlight.

Few e01s hanging around
Few cheapo lights (aa)
Qr beta on my keychain
Ready made in backpack 
Cheapo in my car center console
Toolvn in the mail
Sl2 soon to be ordered 

I have a few aaa and aa eneloops around, usb charger tucked in backpack with solar panel. (They take little space).
Also have 2 kinds of 18650s. AW and samsung. AW seem a bit longer and won't fit my vaporizers.
Also have some 10440s coming from efest for the toolvn.
Main charger is the vtc4, it takes many sizes of battery and shows the voltage, which comes in handy.
Solar panel is by ravpower, which I tested during a 2 week camp trip, it works fairly well for the price. At 15 watts, you better find intense sun though. Also two 16000 mah battery banks and a few micro usb cords, it charges everything that I have plus some.


----------



## Rick NJ

MAD777 said:


> How about stationary bicycles hooked up to generators in every home. Think of the side benefits: practically eliminate obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc. And anyone can have all the power they are willing to work for.



That is, assuming you did not die of a heart attack while charging your first set of battery...


----------



## Poppy

Last week I planned to practice a mini-power outage, but I fell asleep instead  but when I woke up in the morning, it was still dark out. I tried tail standing lights in different locations and using a lantern. Once again, I found that for indoors, I prefer tail standing lights to lanterns. So I tried different strategic locations for the lights, and I think that one of the better locations is to place it on the floor, a couple of feet away from each of two walls in a corner. It spreads out the diffusion of the hot spot, further on the ceiling, and the spill is spread out on the walls.

Something I found interesting, (I think it was StarHalo who mentioned it first), was that having a radio was very comforting. I have a small 2"x3" transistor radio that runs on 3* AA batteries. I keep it in a cardboard sleeve, inside a mylar bag that a computer hard-drive came in to protect it from EMP, just in case. I keep three AA batteries with it but outside of the unit. I can swap in fully charged duraloops if needed.

If you don't have a small radio in your power outage supplies, I think that you should.


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

+1 on the Transistor radio-- I lost a flashlight that a radio built into it.


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> I have a small 2"x3" transistor radio that runs on 3* AA batteries. I keep it in a cardboard sleeve, inside a mylar bag that a computer hard-drive came in to protect it from EMP, just in case.



That's how you test the EMP resistance of an enclosure - set a portable radio to your strongest local station and set it inside; if the station is replaced with static, your enclosure is properly shielding. 



LetThereBeLight! said:


> +1 on the Transistor radio-- I lost a flashlight that a radio built into it.



All-in-one devices like that are usually not good at any one thing they do. If the power is out for a while, the radio may be your only source for news and information; definitely not the time to count on the $10 drug store all-in-wonder. My recommendation for an emergency radio is the remarkably capable CCrane Solar Observer.


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

I have a competitor's equivalent in my emp-proof galvanized steel trash can, can't remember the name, was same price.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

Too much light at night will attract attention, in a life of death situation you need to keep yourself to yourself and safeguard your resources from those who did not have the forcite to prepare, it seems selfish but with overcrowding the land will only support a small proportion of the current population, that's why I belive that the population should be no higher than the land can support, in WW2 the UK population would most likely have starved without the ships from the US, and today our population is most likely double what is was then.

I know this is a bit off subject to but I just had to vent a bit (feel better now) 

John


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Too much light at night will attract attention, in a life of death situation you need to keep yourself to yourself and safeguard your resources from those who did not have the forcite to prepare, it seems selfish but with overcrowding the land will only support a small proportion of the current population, that's why I belive that the population should be no higher than the land can support, in WW2 the UK population would most likely have starved without the ships from the US, and today our population is most likely double what is was then.
> 
> I know this is a bit off subject to but I just had to vent a bit (feel better now)
> 
> John



Hey John, currently, the earth has the capacity to feed 10-billion people; our current population is 7.5 billion. We are still trying to understand how the birthrate recedes or declines when the quality of life in a country becomes improved. If, however, some catastrophic event or series of events interrupt the deliveries of food by ship, truck, etc., than all of us will be relegated to whatever food and preps we have.

At any rate, whatever happens or does not happen, it's good that all of us here have a 'decent' supply of flashlights and batteries!


----------



## MidnightDistortions

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Too much light at night will attract attention, in a life of death situation you need to keep yourself to yourself and safeguard your resources from those who did not have the forcite to prepare, it seems selfish but with overcrowding the land will only support a small proportion of the current population, that's why I belive that the population should be no higher than the land can support, in WW2 the UK population would most likely have starved without the ships from the US, and today our population is most likely double what is was then.
> 
> I know this is a bit off subject to but I just had to vent a bit (feel better now)
> 
> John





LetThereBeLight! said:


> Hey John, currently, the earth has the capacity to feed 10-billion people; our current population is 7.5 billion. We are still trying to understand how the birthrate recedes or declines when the quality of life in a country becomes improved. If, however, some catastrophic event or series of events interrupt the deliveries of food by ship, truck, etc., than all of us will be relegated to whatever food and preps we have.
> 
> At any rate, whatever happens or does not happen, it's good that all of us here have a 'decent' supply of flashlights and batteries!



Probably a good reason to have a flashlight with less than 50 lumens at night, enough for you to see but not enough that you'll be a beacon light. Would be much safer indoors from predators, so you don't need that much light anyway.

As for food supplies. Unless a good portion of of the world stocks up for at least a year there won't be much food. The stuff on the store shelves alone won't feed an entire city for very long, back then when it was still common to grow or supply food within local places may have done better than what we have now. If all food shipments were delayed a month, there wouldn't be anything on the shelves. Plus a portion of this food is either refrigerated or frozen and won't last long if the power went out. If a catastrophic event were to occur most of humanity would be at risk to starvation. Only the ones that are prepared for such a collapse would most likely survive.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

Sorry, but that is an idea situation, and we all know that just does not happen in reality, without pesticides, reliable irrigation, and mechanical harvesting can we really feet 10 billion people.

John. 



LetThereBeLight! said:


> Hey John, currently, the earth has the capacity to feed 10-billion people; our current population is 7.5 billion. We are still trying to understand how the birthrate recedes or declines when the quality of life in a country becomes improved. If, however, some catastrophic event or series of events interrupt the deliveries of food by ship, truck, etc., than all of us will be relegated to whatever food and preps we have.
> 
> At any rate, whatever happens or does not happen, it's good that all of us here have a 'decent' supply of flashlights and batteries!


----------



## RickZ

Poppy said:


> Energizer lists two 6 volt lantern alkaline batteries; 528-4D, and 528-4F. The 4F is about a third heavier than the 4D... 885g vs 665 grams. Please see...http://data.energizer.com/QuickSearch_Action.aspx?group=1&name=Energizer Alkaline
> 
> 
> If the 4D, and the 4F batteries have the same chemical composition, then using simple math, one can determine that the Fs have about 1/3rd more capacity, not double the capacity.
> 
> 
> Something I found interesting is that at the Rayovac site, http://www.rayovac.com/batteries/lantern-batteries.aspx
> they sell their 4 D-cell lantern battery, and 4 F-cell lantern battery at the same price.
> 
> 
> Rayovac Alkaline D-Cell 6-Volt Spring Terminals
> Lantern Batteries
> 6 Volt Spring Terminals Alkaline D Cell
> $6.99
> 
> 
> Rayovac Alkaline F-Cell 6-Volt Spring Terminals
> Lantern Batteries
> 6 Volt Spring Terminals Alkaline F Cell
> $6.99
> 
> 
> I'll agree that the rayovac value lights are PACKAGED with carbon zinc batteries, however I have not read anywhere that the advertised run-times are calculated with carbon zinc batteries. Can you please site a reference that confirms your statement? In the meantime, I'll continue to believe that the advertised run-times are based on alkaline cells. That is based on run-time tests I have performed on the rayovac 2AA indestructible light, and the Ozark Trail 3D lantern.
> 
> I bought a 3D cell Ozark Trail lantern with a single high efficiency Cree emiter. I wanted to see how well the lantern performed with both alkaline and carbon zinc D cells. I measured raw data, and calculated lumen output based on the energy used, and the cree data sheet for the XB-D emitter.
> Here is the raw data, you can draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Advertised run-times 57 hours high... 191 hours low. 300 high / 65 low outputs.
> 
> With C-Zn batteries, the output was less than 3 lumens in less than 40 hours on high. Alkalines did much better, and may actually prove the advertised run-times to be accurate. They however will perform with a typical initial rapid decline in output, and then a more gradual decline as the batteries become depleted.
> 
> My conclusion based upon the above study is that it *may* be possible to get 200 hours with a 4F cell 6V alkaline battery if it starts at 80 lumens. However the output will have declined to 8 lumens at the end of the test, and a good part of the run-time will be at the 10-30 lumen range. That's why I stated earlier that 30 lumens in a darkened room can be comfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey... I never said that they were a bad choice, but simply that some of your statements, and especially your math was wrong/misleading. I threw away two multiple emitter dorsey 6V lights/lanterns when the emitters died one after another. I gave away an energizer single emitter one, that was more reliable, but IMO, was really better suited for power outage lighting than for general purposes.
> 
> When you said...
> 
> my first thought was ... hmmm, really? Those 9 led dollar store lights are more efficient than an Eagletac with a single Cree in it? Then I thought about the comparison that I made between the Energizer folding lantern with 6 surface mounted leds, and a "satellite" lantern with 24 leds, and the 6 led energizer is MUCH more efficient than the 24 led satellite. Is that because the energizer has a better quality driver?. better quality LEDs?, or because 6 is better than 24? I don't know. It does show however, that more does not necessarily mean better.
> 
> Please share with us some "real life experience", not some "pathetic poking around on Google," that (with lights putting out 80 lumens or less) multiple LEDs are more efficient than a single LED.



to begin, I didn't understand you weren't trying to be offensive.

Why do LED lights have more effective efficiency when in parallel? Before we answer that, lets ask, what's more efficient with direct battery terminals touching the LED, (please don't be ridiculous enough to call out 5mm LED sas being testable against the latest CREEs) one 5mm at 80 lumens consumes an exponentially higher amount of energy than 20lumens, as a basic guesstimate, 1,000 ma vs 180.
so, even though it isn't much smaller than the proportionate(250ma for 20lumens, [plus keep in mind the same voltage]) there is a difference in power. Having 5x180=is less than 1,000, so frankly I don't know if you learned about LEDs in college, but yes, the brighter they are the less efficient for their brightness. If you read about how they work, it will simplify why. otherwise, all flashlights would use an advanced version of XML. So, you need to chill about higher end LED lights being compared with 5mm and whatnot. A single 5mm LED is also not capable of pushing 100s of lumens, a cm the wattage would simply overload. Just like the most expensive LEDs can't get over 2000 lumens alone so you use multiple LEDs, hence why people think of LED lights being more floody than HID and etc.

So yes, multiple LEDs are more efficient, as are newer or more advanced.


----------



## RickZ

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Sorry, but that is an idea situation, and we all know that just does not happen in reality, without pesticides, reliable irrigation, and mechanical harvesting can we really feet 10 billion people.
> 
> John.



Let me correct you two. The world is producing enough food right now to-day, to feed 11,000,000,000 people, but we are only feeding 6billion. The left over food is going to those who eat extra, and pets. Dogs, and cats. So yes, we could feed the world, but we are not. 250,000,000 people of food for a day is thrown out every day, 280,000,000 is waisted through unknown, and another 150,000,000 is estimated to go to pets, the remaining is extra food for fat people, not kidding, 5,000,000,000 people of food to fat people. Those fat people? They include those who horde food as prep for disasters.


----------



## braddy

Uh, sure.


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

RickZ said:


> Let me correct you two. The world is producing enough food right now to-day, to feed 11,000,000,000 people, but we are only feeding 6billion. The left over food is going to those who eat extra, and pets. Dogs, and cats. So yes, we could feed the world, but we are not. 250,000,000 people of food for a day is thrown out every day, 280,000,000 is waisted through unknown, and another 150,000,000 is estimated to go to pets, the remaining is extra food for fat people, not kidding, 5,000,000,000 people of food to fat people. Those fat people? They include those who horde food as prep for disasters.


Hey Rick, try to get ahold of Dr. Suzanne Toton's book, "World Hunger" and any of France's Moore Lappe's books on the subject. It's beyond the scope of CPF for me to address or refute myths, misconceptions, and the like on this topic, and what I earlier stated is based on solid research. My pms are open & good luck to you & everyone as well as we all try to strategize tactics here to defeat possibilities of long term darkness!


----------



## Poppy

RickZ said:


> to begin, I didn't understand you weren't trying to be offensive.
> 
> Why do LED lights have more effective efficiency when in parallel? Before we answer that, lets ask, what's more efficient with direct battery terminals touching the LED, (please don't be ridiculous enough to call out 5mm LED sas being testable against the latest CREEs) one 5mm at 80 lumens consumes an exponentially higher amount of energy than 20lumens, as a basic guesstimate, 1,000 ma vs 180.
> so, even though it isn't much smaller than the proportionate(250ma for 20lumens, [plus keep in mind the same voltage]) there is a difference in power. Having 5x180=is less than 1,000, so frankly I don't know if you learned about LEDs in college, but yes, the brighter they are the less efficient for their brightness. If you read about how they work, it will simplify why. otherwise, all flashlights would use an advanced version of XML. So, you need to chill about higher end LED lights being compared with 5mm and whatnot. A single 5mm LED is also not capable of pushing 100s of lumens, a cm the wattage would simply overload. Just like the most expensive LEDs can't get over 2000 lumens alone so you use multiple LEDs, hence why people think of LED lights being more floody than HID and etc.
> 
> So yes, multiple LEDs are more efficient, as are newer or more advanced.


Rick_Z
I am tired of your abrasive posts. I take offense to your suggestions that my posts are ridiculous, and that I need to chill, when I simply made factual statements.

I did some, as you have called it, "pathetic poking around on google" and found what I believe to be fairly accurate information.
1. Cree 5mm round white LEDs are about 30 lumens per watt efficient
2. Cree surface mount LEDs are about 65 lumens per watt efficient
3. Cree XM-L2 LEDs are about 116 lumens per watt efficient even when driven at 3 amps!

You said that I "need to understand that multiple emitters are more efficient than a single emitter"
Yes, I knew that to be true, when we are talking about lights over 800 lumens or so, however, YOU are talking about a 80 lumen 6V $5 lantern that perhaps has multiple cheap LEDs. And your suggestion is that makes it more efficient.

As I said, I am done.
By the way, what do Trolls like to eat these days?


----------



## more_vampires

Poppy is my friend!



> Why do LED lights have more effective efficiency when in parallel? Before we answer that, lets ask, what's more efficient with direct battery terminals touching the LED, (please don't be ridiculous enough to call out 5mm LED sas being testable against the latest CREEs)



Quite simple. As the battery voltage approaches that of what's needed to drive an LED, efficiency can be higher. To buck or boost the current invokes losses.

5mm led can be extremely efficient. 3 alkalines are approximately the right voltage, a limit resistor between 10 and 300 ohms is all you need. Direct drive (with or without limit resistor) is extremely efficient. The only downside is diminishing output as the drain continues.

One of the most efficient lights ever made, the Pak Lite super 9v 2 mode, uses 5mm. It is direct drive/limit resistor. It gets 1 year of continuous runtime on an Energizer Ultimate Lithium 9v. 1 year of runtime off of a fairly low capacity battery tech not efficient enough for ya?  The two mode version of the Pak Lite has two resistors. Low mode uses the largest combination of the two. Though some power is sunk across the limit resistor, it's still quite efficient.

In general, power != efficiency. High power stuff tends to sacrifice efficiency in the name of output.



> By the way, what do Trolls like to eat these days?


Unicorns.


----------



## rpm00

Easy guys. This is one of my favourite threads on CPF and don't want to see it go to sht. 

Back on topic...

I picked up a new Aukey 20k maH battery pack today which I think is 6x18650. Nice and heavy.  I can charge this over the cigarette adapter from my spare 12v or from the car of course. I think I'm set for a while for basic flashlights and cell phone charging. 

Now to think about heat... Winter with no power is no fun in Toronto.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

No more off topic discussion re the world population and food. Start a thread in the Cafe, and be polite. 

Bill


----------



## more_vampires

rpm00 said:


> Back on topic...
> I picked up a new Aukey 20k maH battery pack today which I think is 6x18650. Nice and heavy.


Wow, haven't run across a 6 battery USB pack. I love USB packs. That thing must be huge!

I keep one (a 2-port) in my kitchen with a pair of floody Soshine USB plugin light modules. Those things seem to run forever on the lowest mode, though you have to unplug them when not in use due to parasitic drain. It is dynamite in the shirt pocket (Silent Hill 1 Flaslight) or sitting on the counter for an area directional lamp. I love the fact that I can aim it and never get glare back in my eyes. If the lowest mode is still too much, turn one module off and put a white plastic shopping bag over it.

It holds a charge very well. I top it up once every couple of months. It will recharge my Nitecore Tube more times than I can count... on one charge.

It's one of my favorite power outage toys. It can charge my phone a time or two, and revitalize my USB chargable lights (like my Nitecore P25 Smilodon.) I need a bigger stack of the modules to play with, they're fun.

Even non-flashaholics seem to immediately understand and appreciate the USB modules, I've gifted several to non-flashies and they went on the keychain without resistance.



> Winter with no power is no fun in Toronto.


I keep trying to think of HVAC solutions for outages. I keep coming up with nothing.  It's my main weakness at this time as far as preparation.


----------



## Poppy

more_vampires said:


> I keep trying to think of HVAC solutions for outages. I keep coming up with nothing.  It's my main weakness at this time as far as preparation.


You can get a really small generator, or a large inverter to run off of your car. Here's how to make it work.


----------



## rpm00

more_vampires said:


> Wow, haven't run across a 6 battery USB pack. I love USB packs. That thing must be huge!


This one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RJQB4IU/?tag=cpf0b6-20



> I keep one (a 2-port) in my kitchen with a pair of floody Soshine USB plugin light modules. Those things seem to run forever on the lowest mode, though you have to unplug them when not in use due to parasitic drain. It is dynamite in the shirt pocket (Silent Hill 1 Flaslight) or sitting on the counter for an area directional lamp. I love the fact that I can aim it and never get glare back in my eyes. If the lowest mode is still too much, turn one module off and put a white plastic shopping bag over it.


This sounds interesting. Which one? 



> I keep trying to think of HVAC solutions for outages. I keep coming up with nothing.  It's my main weakness at this time as far as preparation.



I think I know what I need to do. I have a natural gas fireplace. It gets pretty hot but does distribute heat much. I need to find a blower for it which should make a big impact. But need to find one that's 12V because the 110v + inverter uses too much power. I'm hoping if I can find one that uses low enough power I could last for a week like this. 

Of course this assumes natural gas is still flowing. If that stops then it's likely a major event like EMP and we're all gonna die anyway...


----------



## more_vampires

rpm00 said:


> This one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RJQB4IU/?tag=cpf0b6-20
> This sounds interesting. Which one?


The Mophie Juice 2 port output. They've more than one model.
http://www.mophie.com/shop/universal-batteries

Mine:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UJOT670/?tag=cpf0b6-20

Mophie Powerstation Duo. Hands down, top fave powerbank becase of shirt pocket properties when combined with USB plugin light modules. Mine is Elite Rebel Alliance White. Unfortunately, it's the same white as the Stormtroopers wear.  Oh well. No darkside in my power bank! 

You're going to have a hard time making me switch. It fits too nicely! 



rpm00 said:


> I think I know what I need to do. I have a natural gas fireplace. It gets pretty hot but does distribute heat much. I need to find a blower for it which should make a big impact. But need to find one that's 12V because the 110v + inverter uses too much power. I'm hoping if I can find one that uses low enough power I could last for a week like this.
> 
> Of course this assumes natural gas is still flowing. If that stops then it's likely a major event like EMP and we're all gonna die anyway...



Oh yeah, blowers rock for flame based heating. My dad worked with a custom chimney with air ducts between the bricks and a two outlet air blower system for a brick/wood fireplace chimney? Absolutely awesome. Get it up to temp and you need aux fans to move the heat to other places in the house. It was all-pro.

My conundrum is something past a window unit AC running on a genny.  It doesn't get cold here, so much as miserably hot. Very sad about my lack of HVAC comfort prep in the next Power Outage Zombie Apocalypse (where they drive around looking for D alkies for incan Dx2 lights with a runtime of 30 minutes. END OF WORLD!!!)


----------



## Poppy

rpm00 said:


> I think I know what I need to do. I have a natural gas fireplace. It gets pretty hot but does not distribute heat much. I need to find a blower for it which should make a big impact. But need to find one that's 12V because the 110v + inverter uses too much power. I'm hoping if I can find one that uses low enough power I could last for a week like this.
> .


Heat-a-lators can work on convection, can't they? 
Some of those fan powered blow up lawn decorations for various holidays run on a full sized 110V fan. Others run on a 12 volt transformer. The small ones run at 1 amp, the larger ones 1.5 amps. I'd imagine that the smaller one at 1 amp would suffice.

Another thought, is that you might use an 18V leaf blower that is a part of a set of interchangeable cordless power tools. You'll probably get relatively short run-times, but the batteries, typically charge up quickly (like in an hour).


----------



## more_vampires

I also am the proud owner of a Banana 18650x1 USB pack. The stem of the banana pops off to allow access to the ports.

With the addition of the USB plugin light modules, you have a ridiculous and possibly custom flashlight to show off during the Power Outage Apocalypse. 

My only remaining doubt is which 18650 to put in there. I'm leaning towards legit high-cap protected as the max drain is pretty low.

I'm still assembling a stack of module chips. I've been digging stuff in this style for USB modules.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PU7NQ2M/?tag=cpf0b6-20

They don't need a current boost. The ones I have, when you cycle them to lowest then highest, get plenty hot plenty quick. They tend to pick weirdness when first powered on and cycled to high. In my experience with the Soshine modules so far, they want to be turned on and see max and min. They're available in various tint/color configs.

They use SMD led.

They're compact, versatile, and pretty sweet. You'll just never get any throw out of them. All in all, I give them top marks for fun.


----------



## Led Astray

rpm00 said:


> I think I know what I need to do. I have a natural gas fireplace. It gets pretty hot but does distribute heat much. I need to find a blower for it which should make a big impact. But need to find one that's 12V because the 110v + inverter uses too much power. I'm hoping if I can find one that uses low enough power I could last for a week like this.
> 
> Of course this assumes natural gas is still flowing. If that stops then it's likely a major event like EMP and we're all gonna die anyway...



Why use power? I have recently got hold of a Stirling cycle fan that will run as long as there is sufficient temperature difference between what it is sitting on and the top of the fan's cylinder. It spins pretty well and shifts a lot of air around the room so all you need to do is sit it on top of your fire and away you go.
Alternatively there are thermoelectric fans which use a similar principle of temperature difference to generate current which is used to turn a fan, but these are lower temperature and from what I can gather less robust.
Just a thought.


----------



## Poppy

Wow! Very clever!
What can be said about thermo-electric battery chargers?


----------



## Led Astray

It's pretty cool (no pun intended). It'll shift up to 250 CFM and at up to 400 rpm (at 450c I believe). Being heat-powered, they are pretty much independent of fuel source, as long as there is heat generated - could be solar, nuclear, wood, gas, diesel, whatever. It also looks great - cranks, pistons, whirling bits, it appeals to the unrequited engineer in me.

Dunno about the thermoelectric fans, they need to operate at lower temperatures and I haven't investigated them as a charging source. I am aware of a gimmicky water heater that has a thermoelectric-powered USB port so you can charge your phone whilst boiling water using twigs, but I am not convinced it is terribly practical.


----------



## rpm00

Those are a great idea but unfortunately I wouldn't have anywhere to put it. My fireplace looks like this: http://yyzhvac.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/napoleon-GD33-277x300.jpg


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## Poppy

rpm00,
something like this might work for you.

Gemmy Replacement .5a Fan With 12v/.67a Adapter
http://www.yardinflatables.com/Gemmy-Replacement-5a-Fan-With-12v67a-Adapter_p_1862.html


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## Dr. Tweedbucket

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

I'd be going lithium batteries in storage just to save time wasted cranking the car up for a charge or running to a power source. I'm thinking 10 lumen or less lights would be good. ... maybe power some of those off some crazy 3500 mAh 18650s so they last several days. I'd have to supplement my light with some candles and oil lamps as well, sorry I know that's not what peeps here want to hear, but hey, they add a nice ambience and you gotta be versatile. Oh, and what the heck, a little generator to help out with the fridge and furnace.


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## Poppy

_




Originally Posted by *Poppy* 


I have a small 2"x3" transistor radio that runs on 3* AA batteries. I keep it in a cardboard sleeve, inside a mylar bag that a computer hard-drive came in to protect it from EMP, just in case.

_



StarHalo said:


> That's how you test the EMP resistance of an enclosure - set a portable radio to your strongest local station and set it inside; if the station is replaced with static, your enclosure is properly shielding.



LOL... so here I was, walking around with my chest all puffed out, so proud of the fact that I had my radio EMP protected.  For giggles, though, I decided to use StarHalo's test for EMP enclosures. I pulled the radio out, put batteries in it, turned it on to the strongest AM station and put it in the bag. To my shock and surprise, there was no difference... for two years, my radio was only protected from moisture! I then put it into the micro-wave... again no difference! How about the refrigerator? nope (although it was a little more quiet.)

I switched it to FM, and the mylar bag worked, as did the micro-wave. I didn't test the refrigerator  

I wrapped it in aluminum foil and I got static both AM, and FM. 

Since mylar works for FM, but not AM, is that enough EMP protection? Or just make believe?


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## braddy

I wrap my electronics in aluminum foil to what I think is full protection, and then put them inside cookie tins, or another metal box. that I "think" offers EMP protection.

This is a good use for electronics that you are finished with, for instance 1 amp USB chargers that you have replaced with 2.4 versions, or garage sale transistor radios that you have no current use for, old style battery chargers that you have replaced with better ones, or outdated but long running led flashlights that you have put away and don't use, (remember that you only have to protect the head of the flashlight).


With incandescent flashlights, you only need to EMP protect your aftermarket led upgrade bulb, which means you are wrapping and storing something the size of a book of matches.

Even people who think it is too much trouble to invest in EMP possibilities in a major way, might find it OK to use the Aluminum foil/plastic bag wrapping as a way to put away some of their old electronics, while also participating in EMP protection in an easy, almost zero cost way.


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## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> Since mylar works for FM, but not AM, is that enough EMP protection? Or just make believe?



It should block both frequencies; this is just a rudimentary test to check the integrity of your enclosure, there are no guarantees in the event of a solar monster or orbital nuke, since there may be far more energy/frequencies you could test for. But you have to at least establish that your enclosure is a complete shielding circuit and does what it can.

A fridge has non-conductive seals between the door and body, so it won't shield. If you want an appliance that will demonstrate radio shielding well, look to the microwave.


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## Poppy

Braddy, what a great idea for those pretty cookie tins, that I hate throwing away!

I tried the microwave, and the AM radio still worked. Perhaps it isn't as good an EMP protector as people think? I really have no idea.

Can I just throw stuff into a tin, or do they have to be protected (from the tin) with non-conductive material, like a plastic bag, or wrapped in paper?


----------



## braddy

You don't want a connection from the items to the tin, they have to be insulated from each other. the tin is an outer shield, it is the same with the aluminum foil wrapping

I wrap my electronics in plastic, then cheap aluminum foil, plastic, then foil, then plastic, and then put them inside the cookie tin, and I also sand off/brush off the paint or coating from where the lid and body of the cookie tin meet, when closed.

I use Saran wrap or the air filled bags that the retailers use to fill the empty space in boxes when shipping us stuff, I just cut off one end and use it as a free bag, I also save bubble wrap and the padded shipping envelopes to protect more delicate items, and the cheapest aluminum foil, as far as I know, it is the sealed shield that protects, not the thickness. Putting them wrapped, in the cookie tin, or even nesting them with a small tin, inside of a larger tin, are my way of reaching the 100% protection, in a simple, easy to understand way.

My way is not sophisticated but I think it is super effective, cheap, convenient, and easy to do for the non-technical, and frankly, the more official ways seem complex to me, sometimes a little costly, or too troublesome, and frequently I doubt their effectiveness, for instance I just don't have the space or the interest in loading up a huge galvanized garbage can, and I don't trust that method anyway, unless I first wrap the items in plastic and foil layers.

I label the outer layer of each with a magic marker, and almost nothing that I EMP store is anything that I need to see again anyway, it is almost entirely my old electronics that would be sitting in a forgotten storage box, or trashed, or given to the thrift shop, even a couple of old solar garden lights. I'm preparing for minimalist living and recovery, for an event that will probably not happen, so I am not shopping for new things and investing large sums of money as though I was preparing for a factual and certain alternate future, I am hedging my bets, and survivors should be minimalists anyway.


Although EMP was an annoying weight issue to us in the Army during the Cold War (IE heavy recon radios compared to our NATO recon counterparts who didn't use EMP shielding in their radios), I don't have any science knowledge, or expert knowledge of it, but I have gotten the impression that every little bit helps, for example a cookie tin isn't a perfect seal and it varies from tin to tin, but it helps reduce what is reaching the items inside, so storing your tin foil wrapped cheapo solar battery charger inside of one, increases the margin of safety a little, that is why nesting a small tin that doesn't block your radio and phone signal, inside of a larger tin that doesn't block your radio and phone signal, sometimes does result in the signals being totally blocked, every little bit helps.

Put your radio and cell phone in the microwave, and then try the cookie tin, and then try it with the cookie tin inside of the microwave, then try the aluminum foil alone, try the aluminum foil loose, and then tightly sealed (remember to isolate the metal on the radio and phone from the foil), what results do you get?


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## moldyoldy

One aspect of a power outage, or brownouts, that has not been adequately addressed is that of power that does not meet the standards for 110-120VAC @ 60Hz or 220-240 @ 50Hz. Most silicon foundrys have to dump their developing product if the power even fluctuates. Southern CA is well known for rolling brownouts. 

Perhaps a brief history to explain my experiences: It seems that most of my life has had power failures from a few hours to days. As a kid, every storm meant a power failure and kerosene lanterns in the kitchen/dining room. Only the old 2-D flashlights were allowed in the bedrooms. Skipping on to summer/fall work in the USFS in northern Idaho, power in remote ranger station was to turn on the big diesel generator for the cook shack to make breakfast, then at about 1900 or so when the cooks were done, the packer walked out into the horse pasture and flipped the kill switch. Flashlights until the next morning. Life in the military during the Cold War could be very quixotic. In the military, we could be running on civilian power for parts of the base, but ops was usually powered by an on-base motor-gen set, or off-duty we had flashlights. The smaller generator sets usually had lots of spikes since their lines were not 'stiff' enough to prevent major sags and spikes when other devices powered up or down. Our power source in Japan was a great test for the lower end of voltage and frequency - down to 80VAC and frequency down to 45-46Hz. Continental Europe may have a good stiff system for the cities, but the hinterlands in the mountains saw voltages down to ~180-190VAC @ 50Hz. What did all that mean? Displays would flicker and show only partial digits even if the basic digital part functioned.

My first job as an engineer was to take a power analyzer (Dranetz, 1phase or 3 phase) to the plant power and decide whether a better UPS system was needed. :huh: I never realized that a 60Hz cycle could look so bad!

My point is: what happens to all of our nice chargers when the voltage drops? What happens to the chargers when the AC line disappears for several cycles? 

A possible response to an outright power failure or major fluctuations would be to favor the USB charging from a USB power bank. Then use Solar power to charge the USB power bank. 

Note: I was in Syracuse NY for the major East Coast power failure back in the '60s. It was sobering to watch the city go black with only a few islands of light for the hospitals.


----------



## sidecross

moldyoldy said:


> A possible response to an outright power failure or major fluctuations would be to favor the USB charging from a USB power bank. Then use Solar power to charge the USB power bank.


This is my solution for my flashlight batteries and other similar small power devices.


----------



## HKJ

moldyoldy said:


> My point is: what happens to all of our nice chargers when the voltage drops? What happens to the chargers when the AC line disappears for several cycles?



This depends on the design of the charger. Models without microprocessors will probably work without any problems.
With microprocessors it depends on how well it is done. If functions like brownout protection and watchdog is enabled in the microprocessor it may reset, but will continue to run the charger. Without these functions enabled there is a small risk the microprocessor may lock up and this can be bad.


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## moldyoldy

HKJ said:


> This depends on the design of the charger. Models without microprocessors will probably work without any problems.
> With microprocessors it depends on how well it is done. If functions like brownout protection and watchdog is enabled in the microprocessor it may reset, but will continue to run the charger. Without these functions enabled there is a small risk the microprocessor may lock up and this can be bad.



Most of my working life was in R&D (Relax & Dream), and mostly in a defense company - the military-industrial complex that Gen Eisenhower warned us about. Over 1/2 of the Navy electronics failures were because of power supplies, and primarily because they could not deal with the many power fluctuations on-board a ship. In civilian life, a computer power supply is usually designed to 'hold' thru a 50ms dropout. Longer than that and you are at the mercy of the designers. Those numbers are from the '70s & '80s. Not sure if power supply design has improved wrt to hold time. No matter whether analog or switching power supplies, large capacitors ($$ & space) (or possibly large inductors) are key to the 'hold' time. Otherwise VAC input spike protection meant using diodes with a PIV of at least 400V PIV if not 1000V PIV ($$+). The cheapie power supplies in some consumer electronics would use rectifying diodes of only 200V PIV, which is not much above the peak voltage of a 120VAC sinusoidal cycle - ergo usually a very short life span!

In one R&D job, one of my tasks was to run random power cycles on new circuit designs. For creating glitches, I could not do better than NSP (now Xcel Energy) did whenever it switched it's big capacitor banks at around midnight to a different phase compensation. Some of my experiments would always fail - lock up - whenever NSP made that switch. Supposedly the switch was supposed to be zero crossing on the sine wave, but YMMV! 

My response to what I learned? I always employ a good power line spike & noise filter on any line used for electronics. All of my consumer electronic failures stopped. I used to have a UPS on my cable modem and wireless router. with retirement, my online 'needs' have reduced significantly.


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## Poppy

The two chargers I use most often can run from AC or from the car's 12V dc port. In a real power outage, I'd charge from the car so I am not too concerned, but in preparation for a failure, perhaps when current is fluctuating, I might use the house current.

My chargers:
Xtar mp6-2 has a transformer for input listed as 100-240V 50/60 Hz 0.6A
or 12V DC 2000ma

Nitecore Intellicharger i4 100-240V 50/60Hz 10W
DC 12V 10W

Are these chargers capable of handling fluctuating inputs?

Do they have brownout protection, and ?watchdog? ?


----------



## moldyoldy

Poppy said:


> The two chargers I use most often can run from AC or from the car's 12V dc port. In a real power outage, I'd charge from the car so I am not too concerned, but in preparation for a failure, perhaps when current is fluctuating, I might use the house current.
> 
> My chargers:
> Xtar mp6-2 has a transformer for input listed as 100-240V 50/60 Hz 0.6A
> or 12V DC 2000ma
> 
> Nitecore Intellicharger i4 100-240V 50/60Hz 10W
> DC 12V 10W
> 
> Are these chargers capable of handling fluctuating inputs?
> 
> Do they have brownout protection, and ?watchdog? ?



Poppy, I no longer open up the cases on chargers to see what the designers did, unless some operating characteristic makes me curious. The firmware is inscrutable (sic). IOW, How any of the commonly available chargers function under questionable Mains conditions is unknown to me. 

I prefer to protect my chargers by utilizing a good surge/noise filtration outlet extension box. Some design clues are the let-thru voltage (lower is better), and the EMI/RFI noise filtration (higher is better).

An actual example: 3020 Joules for surge energy rating. EMI/RFI Noise rejection (100kHz to 10Mhz) of 70dB. let-thru voltage spike of <400V. The box is not small!

Note the EMI/RFI noise rejection of 70dB! That is achieved by a 3-stage RLC network. By comparison, a winding-isolated Topaz Isolation Transformer on 120VAC has some 120dB of isolation! 

IOW, what you are looking for in a surge/noise/EMI/RFI protection outlet box is a high noise rejection dB and a low let-thru voltage. I happen to like the APC line, but remember to look for the noise rejection numbers. The highest I have in my apt is 80dB. no more electronics failures!


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## Bowman1

While flashlights and battery powered lanterns are great, I would want some liquid fueled Diets lanterns around for an extended power outage. While they don't provide a lot of light, they can provide enough to get by. In the winter, they also provide something more important: heat. My furnace went out during a blizzard in 2010, but I kept the house warm with a couple of lanterns. A couple of pressurized "petromax" globe type lanterns would be a good idea as well.


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## Poppy

moldyoldy said:


> I prefer to protect my chargers by utilizing a good surge/noise filtration outlet extension box. Some design clues are the let-thru voltage (lower is better), and the EMI/RFI noise filtration (higher is better).
> 
> An actual example: 3020 Joules for surge energy rating. EMI/RFI Noise rejection (100kHz to 10Mhz) of 70dB. let-thru voltage spike of <400V. The box is not small!
> 
> Note the EMI/RFI noise rejection of 70dB! That is achieved by a 3-stage RLC network. By comparison, a winding-isolated Topaz Isolation Transformer on 120VAC has some 120dB of isolation!
> 
> IOW, what you are looking for in a surge/noise/EMI/RFI protection outlet box is a high noise rejection dB and a low let-thru voltage. I happen to like the APC line, but remember to look for the noise rejection numbers. The highest I have in my apt is 80dB. no more electronics failures!


I'd say that all this is Greek to me, but then I could use google translate. 

Considering that I have a 5K generator, not a 1-2K inverter gennie, I assume that it puts out "dirty" electricity. Should I put some kind of filter inline somewhere? If so... what kind of labeling should I look for on the package?


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## more_vampires

> I assume that it puts out "dirty" electricity.


Maybe, maybe not. My honda gen has one of the output plugs labelled "computer."

Guess it depends on your particular gen.

Also: Power stabilizer
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i:aps,k:voltage stabilizer


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## braddy

Bowman1 said:


> While flashlights and battery powered lanterns are great, I would want some liquid fueled Diets lanterns around for an extended power outage. While they don't provide a lot of light, they can provide enough to get by. In the winter, they also provide something more important: heat. My furnace went out during a blizzard in 2010, but I kept the house warm with a couple of lanterns. A couple of pressurized "petromax" globe type lanterns would be a good idea as well.



Bowman1, if you live in Iowa, then you should be taking blackouts during winter pretty seriously, which it sounds like you do.

Some things that I would consider are that regardless of one's income, they need to be prepared to drain their water pipes and the water heater, if they can hire a plumber to show them how, and add a valve or two, then great, but if not, they still need to investigate how to do that themselves.

They also need to have a last ditch room and/or master closet, where the family can stay in warmth, if they lose heat for a prolonged period of time, that room is also where they would need to move all their canned goods, kitchen and other liquids from around the house, bathrooms and garage, that would be lost.

I've lived in Wisconsin and Minnesota, when the temperature drops to zero and worse, and stays there for weeks, a house without heat, gets destroyed if it isn't prepped.


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## moldyoldy

Poppy said:


> I'd say that all this is Greek to me, but then I could use google translate.
> 
> Considering that I have a 5K generator, not a 1-2K inverter gennie, I assume that it puts out "dirty" electricity. Should I put some kind of filter inline somewhere? If so... what kind of labeling should I look for on the package?



If you use one of the Honda generators, and especially any generator with a 'computer' output, an additional regulator is probably not necessary, except for utilizing the usual surge arrest-type of outlet box.

The links above normally refer to an electronic regulator. The most expensive of these utilize a switcher and then a regulating circuit to provide a smoother output, hopefully a true sinusoidal output wave and not a stepped approximation thereof as is found in most UPSs.

If you have the money and the space and a very dirty Mains line, as well as a stable frequency, then a CVT is the choice. A CVT = Constant Voltage Transformer and uses primarily a huge transformer/inductor plus a huge capacitor in a ferroresonant 'tank' circuit. A CVT runs rather warm since the loop current is high. 

The primary advantage is that a CVT is very simple and will tolerate a lot of electrical abuse from the Mains line. Another advantage is that even large line spikes and sags cannot make it thru that 'tank' L-C resonant circuit. Notably a ferroresonant system can regulate up to +-40% of the nominal input voltage (impressive!). 

A primary disadvantage is that a CVT has trouble with motor starting loads because that tank circuit uses an inductor which naturally resists any current change, and therefore cannot supply the inrush current of a larger motor. The other disadvantage of the CVT is that it is very sensitive to the incoming line frequency. 

For the consumer with limited money and space to de-spike the average generator output, start with a good surge suppressor outlet strip. Then if the outlet strip wipes itself out periodically, add an electronic regulating controller, but just for the computers and electronics chargers, nothing else.


----------



## Poppy

braddy said:


> Bowman1, if you live in Iowa, then you should be taking blackouts during winter pretty seriously, which it sounds like you do.
> 
> Some things that I would consider are that regardless of one's income, they need to be prepared to drain their water pipes and the water heater, if they can hire a plumber to show them how, and add a valve or two, then great, but if not, they still need to investigate how to do that themselves.
> 
> *They also need to have a last ditch room and/or master closet, where the family can stay in warmth*, if they lose heat for a prolonged period of time, that room is also where they would need to move all their canned goods, kitchen and other liquids from around the house, bathrooms and garage, that would be lost.
> 
> I've lived in Wisconsin and Minnesota, when the temperature drops to zero and worse, and stays there for weeks, a house without heat, gets destroyed if it isn't prepped.



I read two books by Cody Lundin, the bare foot guy from "Dual Survivor". They are light reading but gives you something to think about as you pass the time. At any rate, I think it was in... *When All Hell Breaks Loose: Stuff You Need To Survive When Disaster Strikes.*

*by Cody Lundin *
That he wrote about things that you can do to help keep the house warm or cold, that you wouldn't do normally, such as use mylar emergency blankets on the walls, or windows to reflect the heat back in, or OUT. I got the book from my library.


----------



## Xaios

I'll start by saying that I skimmed the last couple pages, but aside from that I haven't read any of the rest of the thread.

You'd think that living in a place as remote as the Yukon, power outages would be a serious consideration. But honestly, living in the core of Whitehorse, they're really not that bad. Given that I live in the middle of town, we're always the first to have power restored in the event of an outage. I've lived here for 11 years now, and power outages have never lasted more than a few hours. At one point they did occur with annoying frequency, but that has abated in the past few years. Our buildings also have excellent insulation, so I can reasonably expect that the temperature in my residence won't drop more than about 1 degree Celsius per hour, even if it's something like -20 degrees Celsius outside.

More regular outages are something that people living on the outskirts and out in the boonies (a popular way of life here) do have to contend with, but they're well equipped to do so. Their houses are also very well insulated. Most have generators they can use to power their furnaces with while the power is out, and practically all of them have good sized wood stoves in case they're in for a longer spell.

As far as light goes, I've got my trusty Fenix PD35 (2014 UE) in the bedroom, along with 6 charged 18650 batteries (1 in the light, 5 bagged up in my nightstand). Every couple months I'll throw the battery I keep in the light into the charger just to ensure that it's topped up even if I haven't used it. Granted, I don't need to do that from May through August because we get so much daytime that flashlights are hardly necessary. Also, while I've never had cause to test how true this is, the spec sheet for this thing says that it will get 150 hours on Eco mode (14 lumens). Given that I've got 6 3200mAh batteries ready to go while I believe Fenix uses 2300mAh batteries to come up with their figures, I think I'll be fine.


----------



## Swedpat

In Sweden power outages are very rare. At least in cities. One outage per 10 years or so and they last half an hour or shorter. Therefore I have not had reason to think about this issue. But I confess that I wish there would be more power outages and for longer times...


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## braddy

Having been a part of NATO forces during the Cold War, and seeing how things are there today, and how things look for the future, if I were European, I would be a prepper and be thinking of EMP threats, cyber-threats, military threats and the possibility of grid problems in the future.


----------



## etc

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Too much light at night will attract attention, in a life of death situation you need to keep yourself to yourself and safeguard your resources from those who did not have the forcite to prepare,
> 
> John




+1

I think 15 lumens is about max in a TSHTF situation. Even that may be too much at times. You have two agendas that may not exist during normalcy:

1. Not attracting attention to yourself -- when nobody has light, and *you* do, they will wonder what's up with that.

2. Extending your supply to the max. Not draining it with pocket rockets. Make a dozen 123s last a year kind of thing.


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## reppans

3. blow away your night vision, and everyone/everything can see you, but you won't be able to see them .


----------



## Poppy

A few nights ago we had a power outage. Yahoo!!

I was home alone with the dogs, had just turned on the grill and was preparing to make dinner, when the lights went out. Instant darkness, except for the fact that I could still see. Ah... the emergency power outage light in the living room reflected enough light into the dining room, and from there into the kitchen where I was standing, that I could still see around somewhat. Also the light in the bath-room in the adjacent family room was emitting a little reflected light into that room. 

Although I had a practice power outage a few weeks ago, I didn't realize how little light would reach the kitchen, so I am going to get another power outage light and put it on top of the refrigerator (I'll have to use a short extension cord). It is surprising how much light the little LED indicator lights, clocks, etc throw into a room, that I didn't account for when doing my little practice run. 

The sky was very overcast, so there was no moonlight, stars, and no local light pollution (because they lost power too), and without the little light from the clocks, TV, computer monitor, it was very dark. I looked outside, and all of my neighbor's houses were dark, I didn't see even a flicker of lights in any of them. So I went to my garage, and grabbed my Ryobi lantern, and defiant Super Thrower. I put the lantern on the front porch, so my neighbors could see that I had light to spare and would congregate by my house if they wanted to. I then shown my thrower into the windows of the houses across the street, and up the block. That might give them a little light to get themselves oriented so that they could get to their own flashlights.

I then grabbed a few 18650 lights and went door to door to make sure that each was alright, and offered them one of the lights if they needed one, and to come to my house if the outage lasted any amount of time. I'd fire up the generator if needed.

One neighbor wasn't home, so we called her, to tell her that we had an outage, and she might visit with her kids before coming home. 

Another couldn't get into her house because she didn't carry a house key. She always entered through the garage but the electric garage door opener wasn't working. She was particularly concerned because it was time to take her dog for a walk. oops!

I gave one neighbor a Convoy S2+ he was holding a 3D maglight. And he pointed out to his wife... see how much brighter Joe's light is compared to mine. He must have spoken to her about it some time in the past. I am sure that he has some 18650s in his future. Christmas is coming eh?

All this to say, that I surprised myself that I thought to shine my lights into my neighbor's houses to give them some ambient lighting so that they could get to their own lights.

When the power goes out, what do you do?


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

Poppy, you embody the spirit and soul of a true Flashlight lover: generous, kind, considerate.

Wish I could buy the house right next to you! 

As to your question, I've made sure my elderly father is equipped with two lights downstairs and at least one upstairs on his bedroom dresser. If the power goes out, I'll call or drive to his place to make sure he is ok.

If you had asked what do I FEEL when the power goes out, it's elation-- knowing that I'm 'equipped' to defy the darkness!

Always enjoy reading your posts, Poppy.

- LetThereBeLight!


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## ven

+1
Very well said LTBL, everyone wants poppy as their neighbor


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## LetThereBeLight!

Thanks, Ven. If anyone knows how to DEFY the DARKness, it's you and Poppy, and a few others here!


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## Poppy

LetThereBeLight, and ven,
Thank you very much, and I'd like to add, that I would be delighted to have you two as neighbors, too! 

LetThereBeLight,
Truth be told, ven can defy the darkness at much greater distances, and with MUCH more authority, than I. :grouphug:


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## Rick NJ

Bowman1 said:


> While flashlights and battery powered lanterns are great, *I would want some liquid fueled Diets lanterns around for an extended power outage.* While they don't provide a lot of light, they can provide enough to get by. In the winter, they also provide something more important: heat. My furnace went out during a blizzard in 2010, but I kept the house warm with a couple of lanterns. A couple of pressurized "petromax" globe type lanterns would be a good idea as well.



RE: "I would want some liquid fueled Diets lanterns around for an extended power outage."

It would be very hard for "liquid fueled Diets lanterns" to beat a low power LED. My 3xAA ballasted to about 80mA beats out a candle and will run for 24 hours continuous (2000mAH/80mA=25hours, and it will actually go lower power and stay on longer as the voltage sags). My real world comparison done during a power outage, the 80mA put out a lot more light than my wife's "hurricane lamp" and without the fume. If I should have a hissy-fit during a storm, I can even throw my LED lamp on the window curtain without concern of a fire. So, the LED is a good hit more hissy-fit friendly.

I think for small light (<100mA), it is hard to beat an LED with small ballast. For brighter light (>100mA), a 18650 Cree XP-G/G2 type seem better. I am testing those out.

For low (below 100mA), I prefer not to use 18650's. I have three different kinds (brand) of battery protection circuit. All three cut off at 2.4V - that is an over-discharged cell right there on low drain. It is fine at high drain (1A+) : when protection circuit cuts in at 2.4V, (with voltage sag of the high drain), the battery will recover to 3V or above once load is removed. With a low 100mA drain, the voltage sags very little. When protection circuit cuts in and remove the load, it recovers to a much lower "just above cut off" voltage.


----------



## Poppy

I asked... "When the power goes out, what do you do?"



LetThereBeLight! said:


> <snip>
> As to your question, I've made sure my elderly father is equipped with two lights downstairs and at least one upstairs on his bedroom dresser. If the power goes out, I'll call or drive to his place to make sure he is ok.
> 
> - LetThereBeLight!


That's great LetThereBeLight!
Trips and falls can be deadly for the elderly. Therefore I am a strong advocate for instant on emergency power failure lights. They're only about $10 from walmart or homedepot. Just plug them into an outlet, or short extension cord, and you're done.

When the power went out in my house, I was in the kitchen with way more lumens than were necessary, and it went to instant darkness. Actually it wasn't total darkness, but it seemed that way for a second or two, until my irises opened up and my eyes adjusted to the limited light. God forbid there was a person (especially an elderly person) standing on a step stool or ladder at that particular moment.

Christmas and Hanuka is coming, you might consider setting him up with a couple "power failure lights" if he isn't already set up.


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

Poppy said:


> I asked... "When the power goes out, what do you do?"
> 
> That's great LetThereBeLight!
> Trips and falls can be deadly for the elderly. Therefore I am a strong advocate for instant on emergency power failure lights. They're only about $10 from walmart or homedepot. Just plug them into an outlet, or short extension cord, and you're done.
> 
> When the power went out in my house, I was in the kitchen with way more lumens than were necessary, and it went to instant darkness. Actually it wasn't total darkness, but it seemed that way for a second or two, until my irises opened up and my eyes adjusted to the limited light. God forbid there was a person (especially an elderly person) standing on a step stool or ladder at that particular moment.
> 
> Christmas and Hanuka is coming, you might consider setting him up with a couple "power failure lights" if he isn't already set up.



You know, that's a real good idea, Poppy, thank you!

But there's just one problem: he's stubborn. The other day he exclaimed, "What do I need all these lights for!" 

I replied, "Well you had a power outage the other week, and it could happen again." (He was away a few days when it happened, though.)

I think I will get one for his upstairs bathroom, only because knowing him, he won't go for more than one in the house, he would remove it, so I gotta go slow.

Thanks again, Poppy, for your wise suggestion.


----------



## Poppy

If you get an auto on emergency light that you plug into an outlet, be sure that you get one that doesn't cover both sockets! I can't believe that so many of them are manufactured that way.

Also, if your dad has only one outlet in the bathroom, then a light plugged into one socket may be taking up too much important real-estate, unless you also get him an outlet multiplier. I'm thinking that a short extension cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator and then the light sitting on top of the frige might be a good place to start... kinda "out of sight, out of mind." If he balks at that, give him a quarter, and tell him that you'll pay the energy bill for it for the first year.

Good luck!


----------



## StarHalo

"Maintenance power outage, Monday 8AM-3PM." Weather should be just fine, getting the large Tupperware containers ready to go into the freezer to make fridge-saving ice blocks. Got a Kmashi 15000 mAh power pack so the kids can carry on with their tablets and no worries with cell phone use, we'll see how it goes..


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

Poppy said:


> If you get an auto on emergency light that you plug into an outlet, be sure that you get one that doesn't cover both sockets! I can't believe that so many of them are manufactured that way.
> 
> Also, if your dad has only one outlet in the bathroom, then a light plugged into one socket may be taking up too much important real-estate, unless you also get him an outlet multiplier. I'm thinking that a short extension cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator and then the light sitting on top of the frige might be a good place to start... kinda "out of sight, out of mind." If he balks at that, give him a quarter, and tell him that you'll pay the energy bill for it for the first year.
> 
> Good luck!



These are good ideas, thank you for them.


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## StarHalo

Power went out just after eight as advertised, time for a cool breeze and some Coltrane..


----------



## MidnightDistortions

Something to keep in mind when having intermittent power where you may have power but lose it for a few seconds. It would be enough if you were to attempt to recharge batteries, the power may cause your charger to restart. Can't be good for the batteries or the charger so especially during storms its best to charge them before hand.

I noticed this when I was routinely charging a set of D cells in my C9000


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## Poppy

I only recently upgraded to a smart phone, so I have no experience with them during an outage.
Please compare and contrast, the following questions:
1. during your daily life, and;
2. during a power outage.
How heavily do you rely on your smart phone for news, radio, television, entertainment, advisories?
How quickly does the battery drain down, and how do you re-supply it?
Do you have back-up power specifically for your phone?


----------



## Grijon

Poppy said:


> Please compare and contrast, the following questions:
> 1. during your daily life, and;
> 2. during a power outage.
> How heavily do you rely on your smart phone for news, radio, television, entertainment, advisories?
> How quickly does the battery drain down, and how do you re-supply it?
> Do you have back-up power specifically for your phone?



During daily life I use my smartphone as a phone (text and calls), a radio at work (Pandora, my only downloaded app) for perhaps 4 hours average a day, a calculator, and an occasional browser (Chrome) for perhaps an average of 5 minutes a day. I usually go through about 20-30% of the battery per weekday and I charge it every one to two days.

On the weekend the phone basically sits on standby; I don't use it much at all except for the occasional calculating or as a phone. Under this usage the battery hardly moves. I estimate it at about 7% per day.

So in an outage I would turn my screen to 0% brightness, turn off data completely and not touch the phone except to place NEEDED calls. I believe that it'd be safe to estimate 5% battery use per day under such usage and I'd like to think that it'd be much lower than that (maybe ~2%?) - but I like to plan for things to be worse than I actually expect them to.

Under regular life I use my smartphone for news, radio, entertainment and advisories when I don't have an internet-connected PC at hand.
In an outage...I'd do my best to stay off of it because I do NOT have back-up power for my phone, which I simply charge via its included USB cable with its AC-to-USB wall wart adaptor.


----------



## StarHalo

The phone is 99% of everything, TV is just a dumb monitor for the Internet, all things flow through the phone..

Srs tho, once you get your phone set up properly with news (Breaking News) and weather alerts (Storm), free radio apps (TuneIn/iHeartRadio), etc, it pretty much replaces everything. And it keeps going without skipping a beat once the power goes out. Best to not only have a battery pack, but if you're in an outage-prone area, use that power pack to charge your phone overnight (which keeps the pack in service anyway.) My $20 pack will recharge this phone roughly seven times before it needs power.


----------



## Grijon

StarHalo said:


> My $20 pack will recharge this phone roughly seven times before it needs power.



Very cool; do you have a link?


----------



## sidecross

StarHalo said:


> The phone is 99% of everything, TV is just a dumb monitor for the Internet, all things flow through the phone..
> 
> Srs tho, once you get your phone set up properly with news (Breaking News) and weather alerts (Storm), free radio apps (TuneIn/iHeartRadio), etc, it pretty much replaces everything. And it keeps going without skipping a beat once the power goes out. Best to not only have a battery pack, but if you're in an outage-prone area, use that power pack to charge your phone overnight (which keeps the pack in service anyway.) My $20 pack will recharge this phone roughly seven times before it needs power.




A smart phone or cell phone depend on computers, cell towers, electricity, and band width. A break down of one of the parts will leave any phone of not much use. 

Any emergency will have everyone trying to use mobile devices at the same; it will not be easy to make connection. Having a power bank to keep your phone charged is just part of a solution.


----------



## StarHalo

Grijon said:


> Very cool; do you have a link?



This guy here, but be aware that lots of power packs get discounted for Black Friday/holidays, a good time to look for one.


----------



## Poppy

sidecross said:


> A smart phone or cell phone depend on computers, cell towers, electricity, and band width. A break down of one of the parts will leave any phone of not much use.
> 
> Any emergency will have everyone trying to use mobile devices at the same; it will not be easy to make connection. Having a power bank to keep your phone charged is just part of a solution.


We were once upstate NY at an "apple fest." There were thousands of people in attendance and apparently, the cell traffic was overwhelming the system. I couldn't get a call through to either of my kids, but they were able to text each other.

Are there "low bandwidth" options?


----------



## sidecross

Poppy said:


> We were once upstate NY at an "apple fest." There were thousands of people in attendance and apparently, the cell traffic was overwhelming the system. I couldn't get a call through to either of my kids, but they were able to text each other.
> 
> Are there "low bandwidth" options?


From my understanding in an emergency cell phones main ease of use, if possible, will be text messaging. This information is a few years old, and does not factor in the increased sales of cell phone and whether the infrastructure has kept up with this increase.

Any emergency or plan for a future event will always include unforeseen problems. The best tool we can have is a clear and innovative thinking mind after we have planned.


----------



## xzel87

sidecross said:


> From my understanding in an emergency cell phones main ease of use, if possible, will be text messaging. This information is a few years old, and does not factor in the increased sales of cell phone and whether the infrastructure has kept up with this increase.
> 
> Any emergency or plan for a future event will always include unforeseen problems. The best tool we can have is a clear and innovative thinking mind after we have planned.



I don't think infrastructure has kept up well. Maybe in terms of coverage/area availability, but as far as I'm concerned better coverage does not always mean increased bandwidth. I remember in my city back in July during a Charity run sending a text message out during the peak of the event (before run) took almost 10 minutes and the message kept failing to be sent out and kept in the phone Outbox. Internet was all gone, only EDGE was accessible and even that was unstable. This was a crowd of maybe 7 thousand runners. Now imagine a disaster


----------



## sidecross

This exactly what I was trying to explain. It is always easier to plan for an emergency than to to experience one.

One of the first problems is face contingencies that were not expected.

This is where clear thinking can help deal with the unexpected problems that will appear even with the very best planning and forethought.


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## Rick NJ

sidecross said:


> From my understanding in an emergency cell phones main ease of use, if possible, will be text messaging. This information is a few years old, and does not factor in the increased sales of cell phone and whether the infrastructure has kept up with this increase.
> 
> Any emergency or plan for a future event will always include unforeseen problems. The best tool we can have is a clear and innovative thinking mind after we have planned.



With the super-emergencies like Sandy or 911, phone(s) may not be available at all.

During 911, when the twin tower went down, the antenna on the top of the World Trade Tower went with it. The phone company facilities were disrupted both in downtown and elsewhere. I think one of the phone company's facilities were at the lower floors of one of the Towers at the time.

With less-than-911 emergencies like Storm Sandy, flooding from Sandy also caused phone outage. Apart from phone company facility flooding, cell towers may be using local power lines.

The most reliable phone would *likely be the old land-line phones*. Not the fancy ones but those classic phones without a wall-wart. They are powered by the phone line itself. So, as long as the phone company facility has power, you are good to go.


----------



## sidecross

Rick NJ said:


> With the super-emergencies like Sandy or 911, phone(s) may not be available at all.
> 
> During 911, when the twin tower went down, the antenna on the top of the World Trade Tower went with it. The phone company facilities were disrupted both in downtown and elsewhere. I think one of the phone company's facilities were at the lower floors of one of the Towers at the time.
> 
> With less-than-911 emergencies like Storm Sandy, flooding from Sandy also caused phone outage. Apart from phone company facility flooding, cell towers may be using local power lines.
> 
> The most reliable phone would *likely be the old land-line phones*. Not the fancy ones but those classic phones without a wall-wart. They are powered by the phone line itself. So, as long as the phone company facility has power, you are good to go.


Many people have cancelled their landline phone and only use cell phone or smart-phone. This will part of the reason for dropped calls or no calls at all.

I continue to keep my landline phone operational.


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## Taz80

One of the problems they had with cell towers in the country during Irene, Sandy and the October snow storm was accessibility. Many towers are at the end of long dirt driveways that were blocked. There was no way to get fuel to the generators. Cell service in some areas was down altogether and in others very spotty. Landlines tend to be the most reliable as the central offices have back up batteries and generators and are more accessible for fuel drops. As long as your line is on copper from the office. Otherwise you are relying on a 6 to 8 hour battery backup ,if you are lucky and the batteries are new, and the phone co. dropping off and hooking up a generator and keeping it fueled. And then there is always some fool who sees a generator on the side of the road and decides it would look better next to their garage. Anyway texting is the way to go because it takes very little bandwidth and is more likely to go through with poor or overloaded service.


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## Poppy

Back in the day, when Al Gore was still creating the internet :snicker:, around 1989, I created a public web page. Eventually a few of us got together and built it into a website. We ran our own RedHat 5.0 server, and the site on Apache. We used a "high speed" modem, @ 28.8K bandwidth. Eventually we got a DSL line with IIRC a 128K bandwidth. With dial-up, I would sometimes get a 3K or a 5K connection. 

To maximize the number of concurrent connections, and data/information through-put, we settled on "Black on white" text pages, with few low resolution, if any at all, images. 

Just this morning it was mentioned on the news that fewer and fewer homes have hard wired phones, (other than internet VOIP phones) and that more and more are cell phones only. 

I don't travel the net as much as I once did, but again... back in the day, sites would have a splash page and offer HIGH bandwidth, and LOW bandwidth options for their site. I don't recall seeing that in quite a while.

Are sites that are smart phone friendly, inherently LOW bandwidth?


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## Grijon

A Google search resulted in a Verizon Wireless page that claimes that 4G LTE has speeds between 2-12Mbps under regular use and download capability for 50Mpbs. It also says that that is 10 times faster than 3G, which would of course then imply that 3G is 200-1200Kbps.

I can say from my own smartphone web use (AKA "mobile web use" to include things like tablets) that mobile websites are built to fairly modern standards. For example, Wikipedia's mobile pages look quite similar to its desktop ("full") pages.

Does that help answer your question at all?


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## Poppy

Grijon,
Thank you for trying, but no, while your post was informative, it didn't help, ... at all!  but you get 2,000 points for trying  :thumbsup:

I realized that my preamble wasn't clear enough after I posted it, so I apologize. My bad.

When Sandy hit, I had a generator, so I had electricity, and cable lasted for maybe a day, but then it went out. I didn't have a smart phone, nor internet, and didn't think to turn on the radio for news. I lived in a bit of a bubble. Now I have a digital antennae, so I'll still be able to get broadcast news.

However, I am thinking that many will rely on their phone to get broadcast news. BUT live feed videos, are bandwidth HOGS! The network station internet servers, may not be able to supply the demand. Will they cut the bandwidth needed to view the video by decreasing the resolution? switch to a slide show? with narration? or slideshow, with text? OR do nothing at all, and we will suffer with little connection, choppy and dropped video feeds.

So I am thinking that perhaps there are news stations that will be, or are, text based, with perhaps a photo here and there, that will be more reliable in low band width situations.


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## Grijon

Ah ha ha, jolly good - I can't help with that. I will say that I personally have never owned a landline telephone. I turned 18 in 2003 and got a cell phone, and have never felt any need for a landline - and I don't know anyone my age who has ever had one themselves, either.

Unrelated, I would like to say that I LOVED the trip down memory lane with this:


Poppy said:


> Back in the day, when Al Gore was still creating the internet :snicker:, around 1989, I created a public web page. Eventually a few of us got together and built it into a website. We ran our own RedHat 5.0 server, and the site on Apache. We used a "high speed" modem, @ 28.8K bandwidth. Eventually we got a DSL line with IIRC a 128K bandwidth. With dial-up, I would sometimes get a 3K or a 5K connection.
> 
> To maximize the number of concurrent connections, and data/information through-put, we settled on "Black on white" text pages, with few low resolution, if any at all, images.





> ...back in the day, sites would have a splash page and offer HIGH bandwidth, and LOW bandwidth options for their site.


Old-school internet - what memories!


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## StarHalo

When we got our last apartment, the landline was not connected, so I paid for phone service bundled with my internet provider - turns out they just install a phone router device and the phone goes through the Internet, no copper involved, so it of course dies when the power goes out, which defeats the purpose. So in that instance, going all cell makes more sense; I'm not sure if anyone does landline installation anymore, I don't even know if the house we're in was built with/ever had a standard phone line.



Poppy said:


> perhaps there are news stations that will be, or are, text based, with perhaps a photo here and there, that will be more reliable in low band width situations.



The Breaking News app; sends you alerts for big breaking news, only displays news as a chronological list of single-statement events, sometimes a small pic or vid that will only load if you click, and you can always click to go to the full article from the original source. A fast and light program, but very powerful, it's a must have on any phone I own.


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## jmwking

Phone copper is available pretty much everywhere. Whether it works through weather is a different story. Way back when, I was tasked with finding our New Orleans folks after Katrina. I found most of them via SMS texting. Everything else was down...


----------



## Poppy

StarHalo said:


> The Breaking News app; sends you alerts for big breaking news, only displays news as a chronological list of single-statement events, sometimes a small pic or vid that will only load if you click, and you can always click to go to the full article from the original source. A fast and light program, but very powerful, it's a must have on any phone I own.


Thank you StarHalo,
I was hoping that you would see this and respond.

I looked for that app, and found a number of them for major network news stations, and our local cable network news. I think I'll download and install them on my phone now, while I have full bandwidth (that's the prepper in me, eh?)
-----------------------------

When Sandy hit, for the most part we didn't know where there were open gas stations, with gas. The natural assumption was to go further north and inland, to search for it, because the storm came from the south and the East. My brother traveled an hour North West in search of fuel, but if he had gone 10 miles South West he would have found some. That information was not widely available.

I wonder if there is a reporting network that would give that kind of information?


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Poppy said:


> Thank you StarHalo,
> 
> I wonder if there is a reporting network that would give that kind of information?



Buy a radio that picks up the two-meter ham band. During emergencies the two-meter ham people provide the best communication network, and are relied on heavily by authorities. C Crane has a radio that picks up two-meter frequencies.

Bill


----------



## Rick NJ

Poppy said:


> ...
> When Sandy hit, for the most part we didn't know where there were open gas stations, with gas. The natural assumption was to go further north and inland, to search for it, because the storm came from the south and the East. My brother traveled an hour North West in search of fuel, but if he had gone 10 miles South West he would have found some. That information was not widely available.
> 
> I wonder if there is a reporting network that would give that kind of information?
> ...



Poppy, I think that information will be difficult. Non-storm related similar app (around 2009): when gas was hitting over $5/gallon, there was some web app that list the lowest price station, but too often they are out when folks got there. In a situation like Sandy, I think it would have been much worst. Station with gas at 8am would be gone by 10am.

My in-laws are in PA, they called me when they saw gas station opened with gas. I would like to see such a website also, but I fear it will be of little use.


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## TMedina

Pretty much this. When a radio station advertises a local gas station selling at a really low price, how long does it stay available? And that's under normal conditions.


----------



## markr6

TMedina said:


> Pretty much this. When a radio station advertises a local gas station selling at a really low price, how long does it stay available? And that's under normal conditions.



I love the gas thing. Around me, people freak out and go out of their way if another station is $0.15 cheaper. 15 cents!! 10 gallons later you "saved" $1.50. I couldn't care less.


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## herektir

Trying to bring this back to more on topic. I have a fenix tk22, quark aa2(and 1aa body), olight i3s, fenix e01, l3 illumination l10 219b and a loaner 20$ 2aa cabelas light. If in a long power outage for light needs i use sublumen to about 80 lumens trying to only use as much as i need as a single person. Between 8 nimh aa rechargables, 2 18650s, 4 nimh aaa, and about a dozen each of alkline backups i have about half a year worth of light easily. So really the other problems such as food, water, and heat are more important and wont have to think about light.


----------



## Archangel72

My emergency lighting now includes the following

1 Goal Zero Nomad 100 watt portable solar panel
1 GZ Nomad 20 watt PSP
1 GZ Nomad 7 watt PSP

1 GZ Yeti 150 "Solar Generator" 150W 14k mah power supply with 2 USB ports one 12v ac car style plug and one 110 AC plug

3 GZ light a life 350 LED lights
1 GZ lighthouse 250 Lantern

Flashlights
1 Coast HP550
1 Coast HP7
1 Fenix TK75
1 Fenix PD35 Tac
1 Fenix PD40
1 Fenix E25 UE

Batteries Im low on but improving

9 18650's
11 26650's
10 AAA Eneloop Pros (japan)
8 AA Eneloop Pros (japan)
4 eneloop D size Spacers


Chargers
The panasonic AA/AAA charger that came with the Eneloops (4 batteries
1 Fenix Single for the 26650's
1 Nightcore 2 slot smart charger came with the Fenix product
1 Nightcore 4 slot smart charger came with the Fenix product
1 Opus BT-C3400 charger (because it was recommended by CPF'ers ) =)


So.. Its a good start but I really need to get more batteries


----------



## Poppy

Bullzeyebill said:


> Buy a radio that picks up the two-meter ham band. During emergencies the two-meter ham people provide the best communication network, and are relied on heavily by authorities. C Crane has a radio that picks up two-meter frequencies.
> 
> Bill


I know too little about ham radio, but I have heard that they can sometimes reach half way around the world. Do they operate on certain frequencies to report on more local issues? Would they communicate information, such as which communities are most affected by the outage, so that one may plan to head in one direction or another to more quickly get to a unaffected zone?


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## braddy

Archangel72 said:


> Chargers
> The panasonic AA/AAA charger that came with the Eneloops (4 batteries
> 1 Fenix Single for the 26650's
> 1 Nightcore 2 slot smart charger came with the Fenix product
> 1 Nightcore 4 slot smart charger came with the Fenix product
> 1 Opus BT-C3400 charger (because it was recommended by CPF'ers ) =)




Nice set up, as long as you can recharge your batteries then your lighting is pretty secure, even if you don't own a lot of batteries.

With that list of quality chargers you may have quit using your basic Panasonic that came with your Eneloops, if so, then remember that it can be wrapped for EMP protection before you put it away, over time, if one of your lessor Li-ion chargers gets bumped to a storage drawer, then you can do the same with it.


----------



## Poppy

braddy said:


> Nice set up, as long as you can recharge your batteries then your lighting is pretty secure, even if you don't own a lot of batteries.
> 
> With that list of quality chargers you may have quit using your basic Panasonic that came with your Eneloops, if so, then remember that it can be wrapped for EMP protection before you put it away, over time, if one of your lessor Li-ion chargers gets bumped to a storage drawer, then you can do the same with it.


Yes, I thought the same thing.
I'd also like to suggest that you have the adapter so that you can power your chargers from the car's power port. I think for the nitcore chargers the adapters are an option.


----------



## Archangel72

Poppy said:


> Yes, I thought the same thing.
> I'd also like to suggest that you have the adapter so that you can power your chargers from the car's power port. I think for the nitcore chargers the adapters are an option.




Thanks guys, I had not thought of storing any of them but as all my batteries and chargers were VERY recently new I charged them all up to make sure they were topped off and well tested out all the chargers to make sure they were working.

I do want a better handle on my batteries Id really like 3 times as many as I can use at one time to ensure a decent back up supply.
I do have the car chargers for the Nitecores and the one single hitter for the 26650 is USB so it will work in a car as well.

On that thought of storing I will probably park the 2 bay nitecore and the panasonic


----------



## braddy

Which Nitecore chargers do you have, don't they charge 26650s?


----------



## Rick NJ

Having the CLA (cigratte lighter adaptor) is a good thing. Bare in mind one thing, if your charger is not 12VDC-in, the CLA may buck down or regulating it down and you waste some juice there. Buck down would waste a lot less, but to find out for sure how it converts one has to open it up. I suppose I can hook it up to a scope and see if one can discern the switching noise that a Buck would create, but I have not tried that.

*Is +12VDC*
The *Nitecore D2 according to spec* is 12VDC.
The *Opus BTC3400 is 12VDC* (I have one).

*Is Not +12VDC*
My *2yr ago version Lacrosse BC700* (appears to be a rebranded OpusBTC700 then) is 3VDC. The CLA is 12-24VDC convert to 3VDC.
I don't know about the newer grey color OpusBTC700 without the slot-select buttons like the older ones. HKJ has a review and he reported it has the 5.1mm 12Volt input jack (without label) but did NOT confirm the actual voltage. The older model also has the same jack and is also not labeled. The manual saids 3VDC. The power-brick is a 3VDC power brick.
http://lygte-info.dk/review/Review Charger Opus BT-C700 UK.html

If you have a charger, perhaps you can list yours so others know if it is 12VDC or not. Others may benefit from knowing.

By the way, some are concerned about the car generator having have high transient voltage, but I plan to charge my lithium/NiMH from my car-charged SLA so high transient is not a concern in that mode.


----------



## HKJ

Rick NJ said:


> HKJ has a review and he reported it has the 5.1mm 12Volt input jack (without label) but did NOT confirm the actual voltage.



I would expect this curve from the review confirms the voltage:






Notice the 12V in the title, that means I run the charger on my own 12V power supply while measuring the current drain. For chargers with 5V or 12V input I usual do that type of test.


----------



## Poppy

I think that a car/truck/s alternator is typically regulated to put out 13.4 to 14.4 volts. Can chargers that accept a 12V input accept the slightly higher voltage when the engine is running? Or should they only be used with the engine off (where the battery voltage will typically be 12.66 volts (fully charged)?

OR do the cigar lighter adapters have built in regulators to reduce the voltage to 12V?


----------



## braddy

To piggy back onto Poppys question.

When we get a (12v) wall wart, do we want the output to say 12volts dc, or 13 volts dc?


----------



## Rick NJ

A while back, per request, I posted what I use for emergency light with SLA. I have something I called a "forever light" which is 3xAA ballasted with 4 superbright white LED. I run it at 10mA during emergencies so I can avoid total darkness for extended duration.

Some suggested with the 18650 flashlight and a good driver under moonlight mode could be better. I have some info, or "user feedback" if you will.

I use the Nanjg105c. Rather than using a downloaded firmware, I wrote my own custom driver so I can select my own lighting level. As a result (not the intend) I can specify/manipulate the level of light for moonlight to match my "forever light" (8mA to 10mA) using a (presumed to be latticebright fake) XML2-U2.

Current measurement is done using a 0.1ohm 1% current sensing resistor made in Taiwan. For mV measurement across the current sense, a UT61E is used. The UT61E is "calibrated" using Voltage Standard's DMM Check Plus @5V and then using the resisters of DMM Check plus as voltage divider, indirectly confirmed that mV range is within 1%) This calibration was really unnecessary. The numbers are very rough since the room temperature and the LED temperature (as it warms up) changes the current significantly (10% range within my measurement periods).

Without LED, the Nanjg105c draws:
@3.75V 2.7mA. (0.27mV on the current sense)
@3.50V 2.3mA (8.05milliWatt consumed)
@3.00V 1.7mA
@2.60V 1.4mA
@2.20V 1.0mA (this is without LED, 2.2V is the lowest voltage my LED lids)

With LED at 3.5V (approx low-bound when one should recharge if it is not under a power outage)
At 5/255 (2%), the LED self-lid (see it light up but not enough to project out)
At 7/255 (3%), there is light and it is at 5mA
At 9/255 (4%), it draws about 10mA (35milliWatt, @3.5V, the driver use 8.05mW, so 23% power used by the driver).

As expected, the LUX meter is not useful in measuring since the direction projection between the lights are not the same. With ceiling bounce, the 10mA light level is too low for the LUX meter to have meaningful reading. So this may really be *my perception* and thus may be personal taste rather than facts:
- The flashlight single LED with Nanjg driver at 10mA produce brighter light but limited projection.
- The light is adequate to "ceiling bounce", but the bounced light is way dimmer that the 4-LED direct lighting.
- The 4-LED "foreever light" at 10mA lid up the room a lot better but doesn't produce any brighter circular lighted area. It appears to be about twice as bright as the flashlight at 10mA ceiling bounced. The LUX meter is not useful at this low level.
- The 4-led with ballast will run until the battery go dry. At 3x1.2V, even very low battery will exceed the led's Vf. So I have the option of trading the batteries' life for another few hours of light.
- I understand that the Lithium ICR type will not go below 2.6V until death. With protected batteries, I don't have the option of trading it for a few more hours of light. I will have to use the unprotected types. (Yes I have revived a below 1V 18650, it does take a big hit on self-discharge, so I did not use a real lithium for test this time.)
- I turned to using an adjustable PSU to similate battery. The Nanjg will operate down to 2.2V producing some light, but below that, the Vf is not enough for the LED to light. So if the lithium do go below 2.6V, you could trading the life of the battery for another few minutes of light just as with the 3xAA.
- *At 10mA, hand down no contest*, if I am looking for something, I use the flashlight; if I am lighting the room, I use the 3xAA with 4 generic LED.

I also use 12Volt RV lights (12x5050smd at about 1Watt) for emergency. If I boost a 18650 to run the RV lights, I need to draw about 350mA-500mA. The RV lights produce better lighting than the Flashlight at 350mA bounce or not. At 500mA however, the 18650 flashlight ceiling bounce would produce better light, but of course the battery life will be a lot shorter than the 12Volt SLA being drawn at 100mA. So for a fresh battery (higher volts), the 18650 boost solution for RV lights works well or comparable but at high waste. As the battery drains, it needs to draw more current to maintain the boost and the 18650 in the flashlight works better.


----------



## Rick NJ

HKJ said:


> I would expect this curve from the review confirms the voltage:
> 
> ...
> ...
> 
> Notice the 12V in the title, that means I run the charger on my own 12V power supply while measuring the current drain. For chargers with 5V or 12V input I usual do that type of test.



Ah! Thanks! I missed the obvious connection there.

I do have the talent to make myself look more stupid than I really am...


----------



## Rick NJ

braddy said:


> To piggy back onto Poppys question.
> 
> When we get a (12v) wall wart, do we want the output to say 12volts dc, or 13 volts dc?



It depends if it is a regulated wall wart or not. The regulated 12V wall wart should pump out +-5% of 12V. The unregulated relies on the load bringing it down. At no-load, it could go way over 12V. I unrelated 6V wall wart pumping out over 10V no-load. 




Poppy said:


> I think that a car/truck/s alternator is typically regulated to put out 13.4 to 14.4 volts. Can chargers that accept a 12V input accept the slightly higher voltage when the engine is running? Or should they only be used with the engine off (where the battery voltage will typically be 12.66 volts (fully charged)?
> 
> OR do the cigar lighter adapters have built in regulators to reduce the voltage to 12V?



Those CLA putting out less than 12V like 9V, 5V, etc, will for almost for sure have a regulator or more likely a buck converter. All of the CLA I pull apart (over 10) uses the MC34063A type buck converter.

For CLA putting out 12V, you have to open it up. It is unlikely they have a regulator because with a regulator, there will be some voltage drop however slight. I pull apart only one 12V CLA and it doesn't any electronic in it - just a fuse.

As to if higher voltage would work (should engine be running), typically, +-5% is no problem. Once the voltage settled to 12.6V-ish, it is fine. *The wall-wart it came with is a good source of info*. If the equipment come with a regulated supply, probably it would be risky beyond +-5%. For example, the OPUS BT-C3400, the 12V wall-wart is a regulated wall-wart. Some will say it on the label, this one doesn't say it on the label, but it measures 12.3V no-load so it is regulated. So, the BTC3400 using the regulated wall wart would likely expect the input to be 12V at +-5% (safe) to +-10% (some risk).

Again, with the Opus 3400 as example. I didn't open up the OPUS BT-C3400 beyond the bottom. Looking at posted tear-down photos on the web, I don't see a "main regulator". Each charge channel and the CPU has its own regulators. Some chips has the markings removed. So one would have to guess how high can those go. So I would not put in much over 12.6V. I am quite sure 13.6V for this one would be fine but I am not certain. But at up to 12.6V, I know it would be fine. 

Why "I am quite sure 13.6V is ok (but not certain)?" Typically, it would be very bad practice to use the 12V rated components for 12V input. But you never know how close to the margin they are playing.


EDIT (Rant added):

Darn it, unplugging my NANJG105c flashlight driver testbed with the DMM connected so as to measure the BTC3400 wall wart, I reconnected the 12V wall wart to my 3V to 5V NANJG105c! ByeBye ATTINY13A. Device Signature 00000 now! Arrgh.

I guess I will have to upgrade to the ATTINY85v. I couldn't decide why I would need the extra resource from an ATTINY85v. I was going to wait till the cheapie ATTINY85 (non-V) come, so I can test it out before deciding if upgrade the NANJG to ATTINY85V. I guess now the decision is made. I need the ATTINY85V now.

I suppose it is a good thing. I have been very indecisive.


----------



## braddy

My wall wart reads 13.36 volts with my Sears meter, and is printed with 13 volts, 1.3A, level 3, efficiency level IV.

It is an Operatingtech switching adapter. Am I safe in using that as a normal (automobile 12+ volts) 12v wall wart do you think? For instance with my hand held CB?


----------



## braddy

My wall wart reads 13.36 volts with my Sears meter, and is printed with 13 volts, 1.3A, level 3, efficiency level IV.

It is an Operatingtech switching adapter. Am I safe in using that as a normal 12v wall wart do you think? For instance with my hand held CB?

It seems that we can't delete a double post.


----------



## Rick NJ

braddy said:


> My wall wart reads 13.36 volts with my Sears meter, and is printed with 13 volts, 1.3A, level 3, efficiency level IV.
> 
> It is an Operatingtech switching adapter. Am I safe in using that as a normal 12v wall wart do you think? For instance with my hand held CB?



Typical margin is 5%. So a 12V thing is going to expect 12V+-0.6V. You have to decide if it is safe for your equipment

With wall warts being dirt cheap, I would not risk it with equipment I value. Then again, I am just a hobbyist and I am no electronics expert.

*EDIT:

* I was reluctant to be the one causing you to blow your hand-held CB, so initially I took a very conservative stand. On second thought, I decided to give you more info so *you can decide if you want to take the risk and try*. I know how frustrating it is looking for something that fits.

If you are just using the 13V one for convenience and the original 12V can be found, check and see if it is a regulated one. If the original is an unregulated 12V, the 13V should be fine.

If the original is regulated, it may expect 12V. 13Volt at 1.3Amp is within the 10% of the 12V required. In all likelihood, it should work fine, but it could fail also and perhaps even fail in a very bad way - 1.3Amp is lot of juice so bad way can be rather bad. *Most equipment is not as picky as dying at 10% delta*. But there are odd balls that will die if you go just a little bit over. I have an IC (ADS1115) that is at 5.5v max and it means 5.5V. And *there may be stuff in there that is already off-spec and thus already pushing the limit of tolerance. So, that extra 1V could be the camel's hair*.

So understand *while it likely will work, there is a risk in using 13V power-brick for 12V*. There is a risk whenever you use another power-brick other than the one supplied. There is no way to know for sure unless one opens up the equipment and studies the inside.

If you do decided to risk it, the first few tries, make sure you are around to monitor it. It will run a bit hotter. Monitor it carefully particularly since I suspect since it is a CB, the external power it is to charge the battery inside. Charging is good and bad. Charger means almost for sure there would be internal circuitry to manage the charge voltage, but then again it may not be a tolerant one. The circuitry could fail because
(a) it cannot take the extra 1V or
(b) it cannot dissipate the extra heat or
(c) as a result of the extra volt, it passes the delta down steam (such as using the input, dividing it down...) and of course
(d) something I didn't think off and there is plenty of those.

If you post some photos of the inside, at least we would know more about the likelihood of that failing or not. Not knowing that, *this suggestion is a blind one based on typical other equipment behavior. Monitor it carefully. You don't want to save $10 and risk burning the down your house in the process.*

_*In all likelihood, it would work. But it is your risk to take and your decision on taking it or not.*_

Typical $64000 question: *would I do it*? Well, I would do it with a twist. I would monitor how much current it is drawing. 1.3A is enough juice to do real damage. (_*If I don't have a load of high wattage resistors*_...) I have some car incandescence bulbs always in the trunk in case one burns out. I would find a 24W car light and put it in serial as a *current limiter* to give me some protection and bonus is, it is also a charging indicator.
PowerBrick+ -> LightBulb -> CB -> PowerBrick-
A 24W bulb would be 6 ohm, if the thing draw 1/2 amp, it would take down 3V's leaving 10V to the CB, it that works, great. If the 24W bulb took it down too much, I would use a pair of 24W (in parallel) or a single 48W bulb (3 ohm). Trouble with using light bulb is, it starts off with very low resistance and increases as it warms up. So, I would have to lid the bulbs to warm it up first.

After a while, familiarity breeds contempt. I would get tired of doing that and just risk the bloody thing directly anyway. Such contempt is what caused me to blow my TINY13A last night. I should have just disconnect the clip as well (rather then relying on think the push button switch is off already).

Immediately *after Sandy and when power returned intermittently*, I wanted to charge up all my SLA's really really quick while there was power. Back then, I had more SLA batteries than I had chargers. I use a pair of *24W bulb with my 16Volt Toshiba laptop power brick*. That gave me 13.5 to 14V to the SLA... As a make-shift emergency solution, it worked like a charm, but I had to monitor it to know when to adjust it - when the battery gets near full, current decreases which leads it to the light bulb drop less volts (which leads to over-volting the SLA). So, at the point, I switch off the "turn signal" and just use the "parking light" to continue charging.

As I return more to the electronics hobby, now I have more charge-able PSU's than I have dust in the house.


----------



## Poppy

When there is a week long, or longer power-outage, at least here in the US, that would be caused by a catastrophic event. It probably affects a large area. SuperStorm Sandy brought home the fact that large areas of my state were without electricity, and gasoline was not only in short supply, but many stations didn't have the electricity to power their pumps, despite the fact that they had gas in their tanks.

While the news stations continually showed images of destruction caused by the storm, they didn't delineate very well, which areas of the state were relatively unaffected. A friend of mine in Southern NJ said they were unaffected, they had no unusual gas lines at all.

In this thread it has been mentioned that copper land lines are a good form of communication, but communicate with who?
Two meter Ham radio is good, but do they typically report local and regional information? Would they typically disseminate which towns have electricity and fuel? Not necessarily specific gas stations (that might get overrun). 
Are there cell phone apps, that are low bandwidth, that would report more localized information, not world events?


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## Taz80

With emergency services, also if your Internet is supplied over those same copper land lines and you have back up power you will have access to the Internet. I believe the power Co. had maps showing the power outage areas. I don't really remember because all I did was sleep and work, but didn't the local radio and TV stations have that kind of information?


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## Treeguy

Freezing rain alert here. Might get a decent amount. Everything is charged and the generator is in a good mood with extra gas on hand.

And yes, Poppy, I have lots of peanut butter. :wave:


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## ElPablo

I pack multiple 6p clones with l2s, with some spare emitters, running 18650s, and a couple spare 18650s in a battery case, cr123s in a surefire carrying case, pd35, and an olight s15 with eneloops, and 4 extra eneloops, in my jump in the storm shelter bag. Also have a c cell later that also contains a weather radio. Living in tornado alley, I want a lights with a moonlight mode while in the shelter, then some throw for looking any search/rescue after a tornado passes.

For regular power outages, I have flashlights in most rooms and battery led night lights that come on when power is lost in all bathrooms, hallways, and family rooms.


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## Archangel72

braddy said:


> Which Nitecore chargers do you have, don't they charge 26650s?



Yes they do but if I want to charge 4 batteries at once I would rather just use the single for that as I only have one flashlight that uses the 26650


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## Treeguy

We had some heavy winds and the power has been out for about six-hours. Don't know when it will come back on.The generator is going and we're fat and happy.

So far my Archer A2V2 has been my go to light, and my Rayovac Indestructible lantern is being very cooperative.


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## Poppy

Treeguy,
I hope you made it through that outage without incident. 

Going back to low bandwidth during emergencies, and outages, I found this link
http://www.howtogeek.com/181567/how-to-reduce-data-usage-when-browsing-the-web-on-a-smartphone/

but can't find how to change settings on my android asus phone to use low bandwidth settings.
Does chrome always go through their compression server?


----------



## bykfixer

Thanks for the link Poppy.

Holy cow that sure did speed up my phone in lousy signals....

Do you have an app called 'network'? 
That's how I change the radio receiver on my htc.
My wifes samsung is kinda locked into prompting to lte first.

Mine is set to 3g (cdma) with auto prl search only because of our overcrowded towers nearby.

Plus we have a tower close so most of what's left goes past us. So my phone snatches 3g stuff, and 1x when all the 3g cdma stuff is siphoned away.


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## Poppy

I did a little more looking into using my smart phone's browser during power outages, or when there is an emergency, and the networks might be overloaded.

With an android using chrome as the browser, there is a setting within chrome to reduce data usage (data compression with the use of google's servers).

http://drippler.com/drip/how-manage-and-reduce-mobile-data-usage-android

idk, if Apple's I-Phone can use chrome.


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## Nuppet

The Chrome's data compression is very nice, and I use it myself for general WWW browsing on Android.

Another trick is to disable Javascript as that will reduce the amount of ads loaded. Unfortunately, on Chrome (Android) that is a bit of a hassle to enable Javascript only on the sites you want it for, but the effect on browsing is quite positive as well increased security.

Edit: Note that the Chrome data compression is disabled for https and incognito tabs.


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## Norman

I use Opera Mini (Android). With Data Savings set to Extreme, which compresses everything (including https), it's showing 89% savings. It does cause errors on some sites though. For those sites (and those that require a login), I use Chrome (which shows 27% savings).


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## Poppy

Winter storm Jonas, has snow and high winds. About 35,000 are without power here in NJ, and the high winds are delaying restoration efforts. 

Wind chills make it feel like 5F, so my bigger concern would be heat, vs lights if we lose power. I filled my cars with gas, and have about 8 gallons for the generator, which will power my furnace blower, if needed.

If I go anywhere, I'm going to add a sleeping bag to my car's winter driving kit, due to Braddy's suggestion for car SHTF safety kit.


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## Grijon

Sounds like you're ready, Poppy - best wishes.

Thanks for the link; I haven't seen that thread and it's definitely one I want to read.


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## dmattaponi

As of today we have 15 inches and counting. Unfortunately the power is still on ;-) We did put in a supply of firewood and kerosene for heating, lighting, and cooking, but all I've done for my flashlight needs is stock up on AA batteries. I've been trying to wean myself from CR123 and CR2 batteries by switching to AA. I have a 12 pack of eneloops, and some a bunch of Duracell. Last time a major storm hit the power went off in the area for 6 days. With the efficiency of modern led flashlights my 12 pack of eneloops would be more than enough for each of my family members to keep a personal flashlight going for the duration of a something similar.


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## Rick NJ

Roads are closed (NJ/NYC) NJ state police: over 200 spin outs... stay home...

I just cleared a bit over 2 feet of snow off the deck (to prevent collapse due to over-loading), and it is still coming down at 1 to 2 inches per hour.

Fingers crossed, power still on.


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## Taz80

Had the batteries all charged up, the flashlights and lanterns ready to go, plenty of gas for the generator, (ran it for an hour last weekend) and not even a flicker. But thats all good because dragging the generator out in the snow and hooking it up is a drag.


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## dmattaponi

In the scenario described at the beginning of this thread, I'd be more than satisfied if each member of my family had a single cell AA flashlight with a decent low anywhere from .5 to 10 lumens, with a minimum runtime of 30-50hrs, and a 4 pack of batteries each. There would be no reason to try to light any room that we weren't occupying. We'd congregate for most of the time, so no need to keep all the lights running, and each person would have their own personal flashlight for portability.


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## Rick NJ

Well, our power stayed on this time! (NJ) We had around 3 feet of snow.

Now that we (people) are ok, and snow cleared off the driveway and such, we are recovered from the storm, sort of. My mind is on the cats. Some years ago, I felt so bad seeing a homeless cat looking for food in the winter, I started feeding the homeless cats.

The one that made me start feeding homeless cat, that one is a lucky fellow. When I was out for my regular exercise walk, I saw this jet-black cat sleeping by a storm run off regularly, and I started saying hello everyday when I walked by. The lady near the storm run-off said it used to belong to the family next to her, but one day, they just moved and left the cat behind. That was probably about 8 years ago, and his turf was a good 1/2 mile away. I begun feeding him about 4 years ago when I realize my house is within his search-range for food. He is lucky because last fall, he started wearing a collar - meaning someone adopted him. He rarely comes out these days but he does drop by to see what I am serving up.

When I first started leaving food for the black cat, a patchie color (calico) cat, a year old at most, was always hungry. She is is still homeless. I saw her grew from kitten to adult, all without the love an owner would give. I talk to her as much as I can, but she is not very trusting. She "ate and run" leaving as quickly as she can. All told, I have 3 or 4 cat visitors.

I know under the deck (close-to-ground balcony) is where they hide to avoid rain and such. I know such heavy snow could block them in under the deck. Ice is even worst.

Years ago, I made a quick-and-dirty hook up. My laptop with an USB cam takes time-lapse photo. My Arduino (PIR) detects motion, logs the time of visit, and tell the laptop to keep the photos while the PIR is seeing motion. But my laptop died, so I just have my Arduino logging cat visits. I know one made it. There was a single visitor, and the food was gone. But lacking photo, I don't know who came by.

Well, I will feel much more comfortable when I know all my cat friends are AOK as well.

Excuse the rambling. This really is not the forum for it - these cats don't have flashlights and unlikely to buy any. But they are just on my mind...


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## Grijon

Well, *this* flashaholic was glad to hear it, Rick NJ.


----------



## Rick NJ

Hey, in less than an hour after I wrote my last post, the calico cat came by and had some food. Having been feeding her since kitten-hood, I am glad she made it through the storm ok. She isn't really hungry even. She just dropped by for a snack.

The other cats, they are occasional visitors so I may not see them for a week or two yet. Unlike the Calico, she really depends on food here and I feel most close to of my cat friends. So I am actually very pleased she is ok. Now I feel "all is good."

Ah, since this is afterall the candlelight forum, I must add, looking at or looking for cats are one of the main reason I got my 18650 flashlight; and, the outdoor cat food-bowl is lid by an LED controlled by an Arduino. I am actually thinking of changing that to an XPG LED. I like to be able to see if the cat food bowl is full or not which my current generic LED is too weak to show.


----------



## Grijon

:twothumbs


----------



## bykfixer

Frankly I was glad we didn't need the flashlights, generator, or any of the other stuff for power outages.

I have neighbors who feed stray cats. 

We have bird food and peanuts stashed for when it snows. Squirrels and jays love the peanuts, woodpeckers and insect eaters love the suets and the general seed eaters wear out the safflower seeds. Seems sunflower seeds breed territorial issues and little birds like chicadees get left out. 

When the ground becomes exposed again the birds n squirrels are on their own.

We keep several low draw flashlights to go with the collection. Tail stander types.


----------



## Poppy

I didn't pay real close attention, but one report indicated that there were 90,000 households that had lost power in NJ during Jonas. At 2.7 people per household that is nearly 250,000 people. Ouch! I hope that they had a means to bring heat into the house because with 17 degrees F, they'd have frozen pipes.

It pays to be prepared. :thumbsup:

Regarding feeding feral cats:
I understand that one can get a good feeling about it, yet certainly one can argue that unless the cats are taken in and spayed/neutered, that the feeder is perpetuating what may be a nuisance.

My community outlawed feeding feral cats, although it probably is not enforced, unless they get a complaint. My neighbor has a cat house on his front porch, and feeds them daily. They drive my dogs crazy, cause they can't get at them. Their barking drives me crazy, but I am not going to file a complaint. 

At an earlier, house, we had feral cats in our neighborhood, and some took to mating and general co-horting around in my driveway, they sounded like crying babies. It was really annoying. Also, they decided to "mark" my garbage cans as their property. Ever try to get that stink off of your hands? It is almost as bad as skunk spray!

I don't know if it is a state law, or a community ordnance, but a friend of mine who lives in California told me that where he lives, strays are not permitted, and the local game warden will deliver "have a heart traps", and then collect the animals as a part of their business. Also, just as dog walking requires a leash, so does cat walking.


----------



## Rick NJ

Yeah, Poppy, I understand what you are saying. I know I may be taking some risk as my neighborhood may have similar ordinance about feeding feral cats.

I am typing this as my Arduino is beeping = my PIR is triggering, and I can see the feral calico cat eating. I just love cats too much to see them suffer. So, my thought is, hell with them. If they want to issue me a summons, so be it. So far, 4 years+, my bowl of cat food is out there for the hungry ones.


----------



## braddy

Call a vet and ask if he knows of a feral cat care organization, in some areas they will supply you with food, and they will have the cats fixed and treated when needed.


----------



## Rick NJ

There is one (animal humane organization) within a mile. Trouble is, unless I agree to adopt the cat, they will take over. Once they take the cat, the cat's day will be numbered literally. If the cat doesn't get adopted relatively soon, they don't end well. My wife and my daughter each has a cat, so it would be difficult for us to squeeze another cat or two in.

I've had two cats and both were unwanted cats that I adopted. I got my wife into cats and she has in total five. My daughter has one. All but two of our cats are adopted from ASPCA type organizations.

We know if we call those places, the cat is in deep doo-doo...

Yeah, the cats do make a ruckus - but far less than the neighbor's kids, and ar less than the wild turkeys during mating seasons.


----------



## braddy

New Jersey Feral Cat Organizations 

http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/maps/feral-cat-groups/feral_cats_list.html?state=NJ

http://www.spaynj.org/feral-cats/feral-cat-friendly-practices-nj/


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## bykfixer

My neighbors trapped them, took 'em in to be 'fixed' then set them back outside...
Our local spca will issue a coupon at the local dog pound and a few local vets participate. 
Costed my neighbors like $35 a cat and it ensures there isn't a million/billion unwanted cats killing all the song birds and bunnies.

Looking into lanterns after Jonas. Room lighting battery sippers.


----------



## Albert_

Those umbrella type 60 LED camping lamps put out farily good light for smaller areas. Run on one 18650 or 3 x AAA batteries.

Lumens is approx. 235 on high ( three output settings of low, medium and high. ) Lumen output responds to how many volts the battery is putting out. e.g. Supply voltage of 3.7 volts the LEDs won't be as bright as when supplied with 4.2 or 4.5 volts.

Each lamp has a charging port (dc male barrel jack), for a lithium 4.2 volt charger. I have modded these with a USB TC4056 module that enables USB supply voltage (lamps operate without battery) or with 18650 battery installed, light output plus lithium charging.

With this mod lanterns can be powered via a USB 5 volt supply without battery installed.

There is a small circuit board inside that is part of a push button switch and DC input jack, that doesn't drive or regulate the LED voltage. Only switches between three sets of LEDs for low, med. and high. I'm not certain what the maximum current and voltage rating for the LEDs. The lantern worked when connected to a 9 volt battery. I'm not certain of the LED specs possibly to a maximum 9 or 10 volts at lower currents? Too high of a current and voltage might possibly burn out the PCB switch.

Current requirements - ~90mA to ~310mA

(Capacity of battery / draw in mA ) x (0.7)= runtime

(5000mah)/(310mA) x (0.7) = 11.3hrs (hi)
(5000mah)/(215mA) x (0.7) = 16.3hrs (med)
(5000mah)/(85mA) x (0.7) = 41.8 (low) 

These lamps are not designed for large areas. Each lamp is good for smaller areas such as the size of average size tent or smaller rooms. For larger areas and areas outside (less reflection) will require more than one lamp for the lanterns to reach their full potential.

There are also other versions of this lantern. One uses two batteries instead of one, while another includes a small solar panel.


----------



## ewhenn

I keep the following ready:


16 NiMH AA's - Mix of Eneloop and Powerex Imedion - stored at full, refreshed yearly/as used.
8 NiMH AAA's - Tenergy Centura - stored at full, refreshed yearly/as used.
4 18650 Panasonic NCR18650B - stored at 50%, checked every 2-3 months.
2 14500 Nitecore IMR - stored at 50%, checked every 2-3 months.
24 AA Alkaline Primary
24 AAA Alkaline Primary


----------



## braddy

That is an excellent supply of batteries, a car charger for them would be a nice touch, and many of the quality battery chargers will plug into your car's cigarette lighter . 

I keep a similar supply of Alkalines that I only store and don't use, but the real heart of my emergency batteries is similar to yours, NiMH and some 18650s.

LSD rechargeables are the way to go for emergencies. Whether one has solar, or a generator, or a charger that also works in the car, or has to go to a library or a National Guard battery charging center, or whatever, one needs to have some NiMH to recharge.


----------



## Poppy

braddy said:


> That is an excellent supply of batteries, *a car charger* for them would be a nice touch, and many of the quality battery chargers will plug into your car's cigarette lighter .
> 
> I keep a similar supply of Alkalines that I only store and don't use, but the real heart of my emergency batteries is similar to yours, NiMH and some 18650s.
> 
> *LSD rechargeables are the way to go for emergencies.* Whether one has solar, or a generator, or a charger that also works in the car, or has to go to a library or a National Guard battery charging center, or whatever, one needs to have some NiMH to recharge.



I agree... rechargeable batteries and a means to do so, are the way to go for emergencies, especially when you can't predict how long it will be. Being able to recharge batteries allows one to use them up... stress free!

One of the things that I hadn't considered when I started this thread was that smart phones, eat up batteries like crazy! I am thinking that when the power goes out, and we lose TV, internet, and land lines (connected to the cable company) that there will be more demand on our smart phones, than usual. Currently, my family has three smart phones, and they are topped off daily. 

I am looking at six 6600mah power banks on my desk. Each will fully recharge a phone three times, so they should carry the three of us for a week.

I remember how stressful it was when my daughter was stranded in an airport, her charger was in her checked luggage, and her phone battery was just about dead. I don't think she'll ever make that mistake again, and when traveling, she also packs one or two power banks.


----------



## StarHalo

Eneloops, check.


----------



## AMD64Blondie

Think that qualifies as bulk batteries.


----------



## StarHalo

Qualifi_ed_. Took the pic on the Saturday before last, as of Friday afternoon the space is now an empty wooden pallet, sold out. The word is definitely out about Eneloops..


----------



## LeanBurn

I have been making a point the last few weeks to try to limit the tasks that I do with 30 lumens ceiling bounce. I am surprised that I can do nearly anything I usually do, from reading to games, food prep and dining. There really isn't that I can't do using my modded Maglite 2D with the 30Lm Dorcy bulb...and the batteries just go on and on.


----------



## Poppy

I did a quick review of the Defiant 150 lumen Extended Run time lantern HERE

Today, I noticed that they are on a closeout sale until the end of this month for just $8.40
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Defiant-3D-Cree-Extended-Runtime-Lantern-99037/205937843

The site says that they are out of stock online, and are not sold in stores, but I had already bought two in a store last month, and just bought the last two in a store near me. I had to take it to the customer service counter to get the online price.


----------



## Poppy

We just had a 24 hour storm run through the East coast states, and there were thousands of power outages.

Our power went out a couple of times... not long, but enough to cause me to have to reset my clocks all over the house. 
Fortunately, though they did give me the opportunity to see that all of my auto on power failure lights went ON as planned, and that they were properly strategically located. :thumbsup:

This morning I called a friend who has a auto on whole house generator. They lost power, and the generator kicked on... after a bit, the power returned, and the generator sensed that and turned itself off, however, the controlling module, failed to switch the house back to "mains" power, and the house went dark!

I had intended to gift them some auto on power failure lights, but didn't because I thought that they were protected with the generator... who'd a thunk?


----------



## seery

We have 4 of the Fenix CL25R lanterns and a dedicated box of 50 Battery Station CR123's that we use for power outages. 

We were recently out of power for 8 days and they served us well.


----------



## Grijon

seery said:


> We have 4 of the Fenix CL25R lanterns and a dedicated box of 50 Battery Station CR123's that we use for power outages.
> 
> We were recently out of power for 8 days and they served us well.




May I ask how many of those 50 CR123's you went through?


----------



## seery

Grijon said:


> May I ask how many of those 50 CR123's you went through?



26 batts total in 8 days. 

They mostly lived on medium (50 lumens) but were adjusted up/down as needed.


----------



## magellan

Poppy said:


> We just had a 24 hour storm run through the East coast states, and there were thousands of power outages.
> 
> Our power went out a couple of times... not long, but enough to cause me to have to reset my clocks all over the house.
> Fortunately, though they did give me the opportunity to see that all of my auto on power failure lights went ON as planned, and that they were properly strategically located. :thumbsup:
> 
> This morning I called a friend who has a auto on whole house generator. They lost power, and the generator kicked on... after a bit, the power returned, and the generator sensed that and turned itself off, however, the controlling module, failed to switch the house back to "mains" power, and the house went dark!
> 
> I had intended to gift them some auto on power failure lights, but didn't because I thought that they were protected with the generator... who'd a thunk?




We have the same kind of generator except it's not quite whole house, but it does all the important stuff, and it's come in very handy over the years. I lived in California for 40 years, and I would get a power failure maybe once in 3 years (the cables were underground), but now that I'm on the east coast it's probably 12 times a year and some of those are hours to days.

Sounds like a problem with the transfer switch electronics.


----------



## Woods Walker

No power right now. Used 4 D cells for the propane heater. 2 more for the battery powered fish tank air pump. Still on the same AA lithium ion for the headlamp. Second night without power after freak storm. It was nearly 70 or at least it felt like it and now sub freezing and expected to hit the singles to Friday. Running the gas generator but it isn't hard wired (that one broke) so have the new one powering the refrigerator and a single lamp. Phone charged with battery pack.


----------



## Grijon

seery said:


> 26 batts total in 8 days.
> 
> They mostly lived on medium (50 lumens) but were adjusted up/down as needed.




Thanks for the info!


----------



## Poppy

Woods Walker said:


> No power right now. *Used 4 D cells for the propane heater. 2 more for the battery powered fish tank air pump. *Still on the same AA lithium ion for the headlamp. Second night without power after freak storm. It was nearly 70 or at least it felt like it and now sub freezing and expected to hit the singles to Friday. Running the gas generator but it isn't hard wired (that one broke) so have the new one powering the refrigerator and a single lamp. Phone charged with battery pack.



Gee.. I wonder how many fish end up swimming in the "Great pond" due to lack of aeration? It's been years since I last had a fish tank, I wonder if I would have thought of getting a battery operated aeration pump?

What are the batteries for with the propane heater?


----------



## Archangel72

Added to my stuff (below)

BTW Poppy just wanted to say grants for starting a great thread that's been around over 2.5 yrs!!!





Archangel72 said:


> My emergency lighting now includes the following
> 
> 1 Goal Zero Nomad 100 watt portable solar panel
> 1 GZ Nomad 20 watt PSP
> 1 GZ Nomad 7 watt PSP
> 
> 1 GZ Yeti 150 "Solar Generator" 150W 14k mah power supply with 2 USB ports one 12v ac car style plug and one 110 AC plug
> 
> 3 GZ light a life 350 LED lights
> 1 GZ lighthouse 250 Lantern
> 
> Flashlights
> 1 Coast HP550
> 1 Coast HP7
> 1 Fenix TK75
> 1 Fenix PD35 Tac
> 1 Fenix PD40
> 1 Fenix E25 UE
> 
> Batteries Im low on but improving
> 
> 9 18650's
> 11 26650's
> 10 AAA Eneloop Pros (japan)
> 8 AA Eneloop Pros (japan)
> 4 eneloop D size Spacers
> 
> 
> Chargers
> The panasonic AA/AAA charger that came with the Eneloops (4 batteries
> 1 Fenix Single for the 26650's
> 1 Nightcore 2 slot smart charger came with the Fenix product
> 1 Nightcore 4 slot smart charger came with the Fenix product
> 1 Opus BT-C3400 charger (because it was recommended by CPF'ers ) =)
> 
> 
> So.. Its a good start but I really need to get more batteries




added 3 more lights 

A Toolvn
A SGN3vn
and a jet beam RRT02
along with more 18650's
and 4 IMR10440's for the TOOLvn.


----------



## Woods Walker

Poppy said:


> Gee.. I wonder how many fish end up swimming in the "Great pond" due to lack of aeration? It's been years since I last had a fish tank, I wonder if I would have thought of getting a battery operated aeration pump?
> 
> What are the batteries for with the propane heater?



The batteries power a fan in the heater but it's not 100% needed and have a battery powered pump with box filters. Maybe a thread on this and the lights would been good as I took photos at the time flashlight people love blackouts. Yes we do.


----------



## Poppy

woods walker,
I love your stories, why not add it here?


----------



## Poppy

A few weeks ago, we were talking about getting news with our phones in the event of an outtage.
This morning my local news station reported on an outtage in Denver, and how their local news station lost power and did their broadcast on facebook!
http://kdvr.com/2016/02/18/fox31-news-at-5-broadcasts-live-on-facebook-after-power-outage/


----------



## StarHalo

I get the news on my phone when the power's on..


----------



## StarHalo

Power outage practice TONIGHT, join us..


----------



## pblanch

A bit of a repost http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...I-just-built&p=4863162&viewfull=1#post4863162

Although I have a stock of AA, AAA and CR123's for my lights I saw a video of a guy reviewing the nitecore D2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNJq7x53R7k 12:42) and just hooked it up to a 12V battery. It was a Eureka moment as most people have batteries in the car.


----------



## Poppy

StarHalo said:


> Power outage practice TONIGHT, join us..


Each year, StarHalo reminds us of Earth Hour.

Did you run a practice outage?
What did you learn?
What was your experience like?


----------



## Poppy

Yesterday, I noticed a sign in front of our Fire House.
Daylight Savings Time:
Change the battery in your smoke detector.



> When we change our clocks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the *United States begins Daylight Saving Time at 2:00 a.m. on the second Sunday in March and reverts to standard time on the first Sunday in November. In the U.S., each time zone switches at a different time.*
> *In the European Union, Summer Time begins and ends at 1:00 a.m. Universal Time (Greenwich Mean Time). It begins the last Sunday in March and ends the last Sunday in October. In the EU, all time zones change at the same moment.*



Twice a year, I blow my clothes dryer duct out, and at least that often I start my generator.

I'd like to suggest that now is a good time to top off any SLA batteries that you have, go through your emergency supplies, check your stockpile of batteries, and check the status of whatever you keep in your car.

It might be a good time to rotate out any fuel that you have stored for your generator. Personally, I don't use stabilizer, but at least once a season, I pour the generator gas into my car's tank, and replace it with fresh gas.


----------



## mcnair55

Poppy said:


> Yesterday, I noticed a sign in front of our Fire House.
> Daylight Savings Time:
> Change the battery in your smoke detector.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twice a year, I blow my clothes dryer duct out, and at least that often I start my generator.
> 
> I'd like to suggest that now is a good time to top off any SLA batteries that you have, go through your emergency supplies, check your stockpile of batteries, and check the status of whatever you keep in your car.
> 
> It might be a good time to rotate out any fuel that you have stored for your generator. Personally, I don't use stabilizer, but at least once a season, I pour the generator gas into my car's tank, and replace it with fresh gas.




Sounds like top advice,thanks Mr Poppy,half way through mine now so Eneloop type batteries charged for the show queens and fresh Alkies in common used lights,also did a quick wipe down and re lube.


----------



## braddy

I use terrorism to remind me to charge my batteries, check my water supplies etc.. twice a year.

In the weeks before July 4th, and December 25th, I am reminded that those are prime days for the terrorists, so it is easy for me to remember them as preparation dates.


----------



## Berneck1

braddy said:


> I use terrorism to remind me to charge my batteries, check my water supplies etc.. twice a year.
> 
> In the weeks before July 4th, and December 25th, I am reminded that those are prime days for the terrorists, so it is easy for me to remember them as preparation dates.



I think it's great that you use those dates as a reminder, but I don't recall any major attack happening on those dates. In fact, it may be less likely because people/law enforcement tend to be more vigilant at those times. The reality is, any day is a potential day and no more or less than any other. The World Trade Center was attacked twice. February 26th and September 11th. I was there both times. They are both dates with no significance that I am aware of. They will attack when you least expect it. 

I guess all I'm saying is, don't be any less vigilant just because a particular time or date doesn't have any significance to you.


Sent from my iPad using Candlepowerforums


----------



## braddy

They are the days that Muslim terrorists would most like to do their biggest hits, and they are easy days to remember, and there are always some terrorist reminders around those two dates to jog the memory.

They aren't special dates for vigilance, but 6 month intervals for bi-annual checking of stocks and battery recharging, replacing store tap water, etc.

A lot of other people would have other ways to create a bi annual pattern that works for their memory.


----------



## Poppy

Power outages can happen anywhere. Are you prepared even when you are not at home?

Yesterday we went to CamelBack Resort in the Pocono mountains in Pennsylvania. The Pocono's are known for their multitude of tourist attractions. This one has one of the largest indoor water parks in the nation.

We had to check out by 11:00 AM this morning, but our pool passes were good for the rest of the day. So I had Valet pull the car up, load it with our stuff, and re-park it. We were going to continue to play! My cell phone was dead. It died while in the safe, but fortunately I had a battery pack that I could charge it from.

No sooner had we done that, that there was a region wide power failure. The extra flashlight I brought was packed in the car, and my EDC a CooYoo keychain light was with the Valet, with my car keys.

Fortunately the place had either battery power, or backup generation for the lights, but nothing else worked. Also it was during daylight hours, and there were a lot of windows to let light into the large areas.

The outage only lasted a few hours, but if they weren't so prepared, and I was without my flashlight, and if it was dark out, it could have been a different experience.

Are you somewhat prepared when you are away from home?


----------



## braddy

All I keep in the car (van) aside from my EDC Fenix LD01 and Fenix PD35 which are always with me are,

A Photon Proton AA for looking at maps, my Nitecore HC50 headlamp for work or emergency, My Fenix HL21 AA headlamp stashed away along with a AAA PF03, and a Gerber task light AA, as deep road backup, a cheap AA "Police" light and a few alkalines to gift to people with car trouble on the road, and a SK68 hanging in the back of my van for an area light, a couple of transistor radios and a selection of NiMH batteries, 2 quality battery chargers for house or car, a small solar battery charger, and a selection of diffusers for the various lights.

It isn't that I'm nutty enough to not recognize all the overkill redundancy, but as we know, when you have been into flashlights a while, you have to keep them somewhere, so keeping some in the vehicle makes sense, especially if you do impromptu outdoor stuff with friends, you can pull out some extra lights.

I wouldn't need to worry about lighting for years in a breakdown, or as long as the rechargeables would keep recharging.


----------



## bluemax_1

Having been caught in city/region wide outages AND learning firsthand just how dark corridors and some buildings can be when the emergency lights fail, is the reason my EDC includes a minimum of 4, and usually 5 flashlights (not including my cellphone which would be #6).

I have 3 on my keychain. 1 AAA Klarus Mi10, a Streamlight Nano and a UST Pico. I also always keep a 4/7's QPA loaded with a 14500. The 5th these days has been a Thrunite TN11S.

Aside from multiple redundancy, I don't mind giving the Nano and Pico away to folks needing a light source (which is exactly what happened in the last power outage).

I used to carry photon lights as the emergency spares, but I found that the squeeze type lights inevitably got squeezed in my pockets and would be DOA when I needed them. No such problems with twisties.


Max


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Looks like those of us in California are probably going to experience about a month or more of blackouts this year due to the Porter Ranch methane leak. Officials are saying that the leak at the Aliso Ranch gas storage facility, the largest natural gas facility in the western U.S., and the subsequent shutdown and testing of the remaining underground gas wells will reduce this year's supply of natural gas in California to an extent that over 14 days in the summer and up to 18 days in the winter could have blackouts.
Here's the news article: www.foxnews.com/us/2016/04/05/gas-leak-may-cause-blackouts-in-california-officials-say.html?intcmp=hplnws
Here's California Independent System Operator's action plan: www.energy.ca.gov/2016_energypolicy/documents/2016-04-08_joint_agency_workshop/Aliso_Canyon_Action_Plan_to_Preserve_Gas_and_Electric_Reliability_for_the_Los_Angeles_Basin.pdf
Skip down to page 18 for risk assessment, Table 6 on page 23 gives you their findings on the number of days we will be short on gas (and electricity)
Remember, according to CA ISO, 58.8% of our power in California comes from natural gas: www.caiso.com/informed/Pages/CleanGrid/default.aspx
If you live in California like I do, now is a good time to stock up on supplies if you haven't already.


----------



## mcnair55

bluemax_1 said:


> Having been caught in city/region wide outages AND learning firsthand just how dark corridors and some buildings can be when the emergency lights fail, is the reason my EDC includes a minimum of 4, and usually 5 flashlights (not including my cellphone which would be #6).
> 
> I have 3 on my keychain. 1 AAA Klarus Mi10, a Streamlight Nano and a UST Pico. I also always keep a 4/7's QPA loaded with a 14500. The 5th these days has been a Thrunite TN11S.
> 
> Aside from multiple redundancy, I don't mind giving the Nano and Pico away to folks needing a light source (which is exactly what happened in the last power outage).
> 
> I used to carry photon lights as the emergency spares, but I found that the squeeze type lights inevitably got squeezed in my pockets and would be DOA when I needed them. No such problems with twisties.
> 
> 
> Max



Crikey you take no chances.


----------



## braddy

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Looks like those of us in California are probably going to experience about a month or more of blackouts this year due to the Porter Ranch methane leak. Officials are saying that the leak at the Aliso Ranch gas storage facility, the largest natural gas facility in the western U.S., and the subsequent shutdown and testing of the remaining underground gas wells will reduce this year's supply of natural gas in California to an extent that over 14 days in the summer and up to 18 days in the winter could have blackouts.



I saw that, summer heat in inland California means desert and 110 and 115 degrees, and of course no lights and spoiled food, in 1960 when people were sitting in air conditioning and with central heating, with the thermostat set at 72 Degrees, they could never have imagined that first they would be told to set their thermostats to uncomfortable in both winter and summer, and then would be dealing with dozens of days of no electricity at all, in the 21st century.


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

Hooked-on-Fenix, although I was disappointed in my two Luci lanterns, others have had better luck with them so consider purchasing a few ($15. each).

The WakaWaka Power is both a light and a recharger and would be ideal for anyone who has been informed power outages are 'definitely' gonna happen! It is about $70.


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> My cell phone was dead. It died while in the safe, but fortunately I had a battery pack that I could charge it from.



No car charger?


----------



## Tre_Asay

bluemax_1 said:


> Having been caught in city/region wide outages AND learning firsthand just how dark corridors and some buildings can be when the emergency lights fail, is the reason my EDC includes a minimum of 4, and usually 5 flashlights (not including my cellphone which would be #6).
> 
> I have 3 on my keychain. 1 AAA Klarus Mi10, a Streamlight Nano and a UST Pico. I also always keep a 4/7's QPA loaded with a 14500. The 5th these days has been a Thrunite TN11S.
> 
> Aside from multiple redundancy, I don't mind giving the Nano and Pico away to folks needing a light source (which is exactly what happened in the last power outage).
> 
> I used to carry photon lights as the emergency spares, but I found that the squeeze type lights inevitably got squeezed in my pockets and would be DOA when I needed them. No such problems with twisties.
> 
> 
> Max


I carry right now two flashlights, one is a headlamp. I also carry a spare battery that is always charged.
I am planning on carrying 4 flashlights everyday as soon as I can figure out which ones. :thinking:
For me I am pretty much always ready for an outage as I have all of my current flashlights on my person on in my bag. 
I imagine that I have 3+ weeks of useable light with all of the spare batteries I keep.


----------



## Tre_Asay

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Looks like those of us in California are probably going to experience about a month or more of blackouts this year due to the Porter Ranch methane leak. Officials are saying that the leak at the Aliso Ranch gas storage facility, the largest natural gas facility in the western U.S., and the subsequent shutdown and testing of the remaining underground gas wells will reduce this year's supply of natural gas in California to an extent that over 14 days in the summer and up to 18 days in the winter could have blackouts.
> Here's the news article: www.foxnews.com/us/2016/04/05/gas-leak-may-cause-blackouts-in-california-officials-say.html?intcmp=hplnws
> Here's California Independent System Operator's action plan: www.energy.ca.gov/2016_energypolicy/documents/2016-04-08_joint_agency_workshop/Aliso_Canyon_Action_Plan_to_Preserve_Gas_and_Electric_Reliability_for_the_Los_Angeles_Basin.pdf
> Skip down to page 18 for risk assessment, Table 6 on page 23 gives you their findings on the number of days we will be short on gas (and electricity)
> Remember, according to CA ISO, 58.8% of our power in California comes from natural gas: www.caiso.com/informed/Pages/CleanGrid/default.aspx
> If you live in California like I do, now is a good time to stock up on supplies if you haven't already.


I just picked up an old but good kerosine lamp, maybe I should stock up on some oil for it.


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

Poppy said:


> Power outages can happen anywhere. Are you prepared even when you are not at home?
> 
> Yesterday we went to CamelBack Resort in the Pocono mountains in Pennsylvania. The Pocono's are known for their multitude of tourist attractions. This one has one of the largest indoor water parks in the nation.
> 
> We had to check out by 11:00 AM this morning, but our pool passes were good for the rest of the day. So I had Valet pull the car up, load it with our stuff, and re-park it. We were going to continue to play! My cell phone was dead. It died while in the safe, but fortunately I had a battery pack that I could charge it from.
> 
> No sooner had we done that, that there was a region wide power failure. The extra flashlight I brought was packed in the car, and my EDC a CooYoo keychain light was with the Valet, with my car keys.
> 
> Fortunately the place had either battery power, or backup generation for the lights, but nothing else worked. Also it was during daylight hours, and there were a lot of windows to let light into the large areas.
> 
> The outage only lasted a few hours, but if they weren't so prepared, and I was without my flashlight, and if it was dark out, it could have been a different experience.
> 
> Are you somewhat prepared when you are away from home?



Poppy, I admit I'm 'light' crazy.

In my left pocket (in a rosary case all by itself along with a spare AAA battery) is an Olight S-1.

In my right pocket is the Lumintop Tool with a 10440 in it and a D25A with a 14500 in it (& a rosary case with a rosary). And also in that pocket is that new Olight AAA light-- it's actually in a smaller pocket in that pocket-- and there is my spare car key which is attached to a Mecarmy SGN3 (which I might delete because of way too many accidental activations!)

On a lanyard is a Tube.

In my iPad bag is a regular Tool, a D25aaa, and a Fenix PD-35, and spare batteries for each.

(if I were away from home, I probably would not have that bag with me but would along take spare batteries.)

Upon reflection, I need to EDC (in a pocket) a spare AA battery as well.

The S-1 is never ever used as I consider it my down to the wire or (last) emergency EDC means of illumination if everything else I carried failed or expired or went dead. 

Yes, I check it from time to time and position the clip over the off button to avoid it being turned on (felt it get very hot in my pocket once and addressed that issue right away, lol.)

Why do I keep fantasizing of being the only 'illuminater' in the valley of the dark? 

Well, we all want to be Light Heroes (or Sheroes), right? 



Yes, I know I might need my head examined but my name is LetThereBeLight! and I am a Flashaholic because SOMEONE has to chase away the dark! 

Because dark just SUCKS and there's way too much of it! 


Something strange...
In the neighborhood--
Who you gonna call?
"DarkBUSTERS!!!"


So show that dark slime  who's REALLY boss! :candle::candle::candle:


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

I have about a half dozen Luci lanterns. I prefer the Luci Lux and the other newer ones that charge faster and have the battery tester. I also have a Hybridlight solar lantern and an Olympia Solar lantern which don't charge as fast with solar, but charge devices via USB. Trust me, I'm well prepared for the lights going out. I'm not a fan of going without air conditioning or running water, or being near large groups of people that go nuts when the power goes out. Our town water supply depends on pumps run by electricity. When we lose power, the water runs downhill and takes awhile to get back after we get power on. Backup generators were diesel last I checked and thanks to the EPA, they aren't allowed to be used after a certain number of days. After so long, they aren't even allowed on site. They were trying to force them to switch to natural gas generators which would be absolutely worthless in this scenario. If I need to, I can light up my house better with flashlights and lanterns than I could with the power on, but lights are definitely not my only concern. Think about a house with two diabetics and limited refrigeration (refrigerator on generator until gas runs out. Gas stations run on electricity). Think about four families on one property in the dark (have to provide lights and batteries for them to keep them from using candles and burning down the place). Think about how many people will use candles and start accidental fires (remember, no electricity, no water). I live at ground zero for the Cedar and Witch Creek fires (the two largest in state history). The ironic thing is that we have solar. Unfortunetely, it's a grid tied system. When the power goes out, our panels are shut off so they don't backfeed the grid and kill someone working on the lines. I wonder if the people running the grid realize that when they shut off the power to reduce the load on the grid, they can cut off all the solar systems on people's homes from feeding the grid. Sounds like a horrible new sideeffect to rolling blackouts. We might have more days of rolling blackouts than we were told. Not to mention, with diesel generators being frowned on in this state, backup generators are natural gas which is useless when the grid goes down because there's no natural gas. This is going to be an interesting year.


----------



## braddy

Tre_Asay said:


> I just picked up an old but good kerosine lamp, maybe I should stock up on some oil for it.




I got a couple of solar pool lights that are like the solar garden lights except better made and with a 7 foot cord to the charging panel, they came with decent NiMH batteries of 800mAh, but I also bought a couple of Eneloop lite batteries (5000 charges and 1000mAh), those will serve as my odorless lanterns, with the cord run out of a window and will run all night.


----------



## Poppy

Wow, a lot of interesting posts since I last posted.

lol... braddy, when I read your post of how many lights you have in your car/van, I wondered if you live in your van 
Yeah... I have a lot in my car too, but none of my better lights.

Yes Star Halo, I have a single 18650 cell charger that runs off of a USB input in my car glove compartment. And a two cell NiMH charger for AA or AAA batteries. I also have a cigar lighter port splitter that will turn one into two, and a pair of cigar port to USB adapters, so I can have up to four usb ports running at the same time.

I also keep a 6600 mah power-bank in the car. On this trip, we also packed an extra two.

"Cave like darkness", is darkness that is so dark, that you can not see your hand, if you held it out in front of your face. During the after math of SuperStorm Sandy, I entered a condo building that was similar to a hotel, where there were long hallways with doors on both sides, and NO Windows. The emergency batteries for the lighting were dead, and the halls were in a state of "Cave like darkness". Many hotel corridors are like that, (windowless). In the future, when ever I have my car valet parked, I'll pull my EDC from the key chain. I think I'll get a chain to put around my neck, for when that is the best way to carry.


----------



## bluemax_1

^^^
Yup, that was what I was talking about when I mentioned how dark some corridors (and buildings) can get in a power outage when the emergency lights fail (and most of them only have battery power for evacuation, i.e. 45-60 minutes. By 90-120 minutes, most emergency backup lights are dead.

Of the 3 lights on my keychain, the Nano and Pico unclip easily, and the Mi10 is on a detachable ring with my house key so I can remove that from the car keys etc. 

On top of that, my wallet always sits on the 4/7s QPA in my pocket. Even if I hand all my keys to someone else for whatever reason, if I have my wallet, the QPA will also be in that pocket, even if the belt carried EDC and keychain are absent. 

And that still doesn't count the light on the cellphone which would be the absolute last resort as I'd rather save the battery on my comms device for emergency communications than drain it for lighting or playing games, videos and surfing the web as I watched many people do in the last blackout I was in. Without knowing how long the outage would last (in that case, about 7 hours) more than one person drained their cellphone flat, using them for entertainment, eventually necessitating borrowing someone else's phone to make calls. 

Even worse were the ones panicking because their phone was now dead and they hadn't memorized key numbers. Lucky for those folks, I had my work bag with the 1-cell 18650 charger which can use a charged 18650 to power the built-in USB port to give their phones enough of a charge to make their calls.

I also recall someone in an earthquake zone mentioning that they'd learned to sleep with a tiny light around their neck (like a Nano or Photon) after being tossed out of bed into darkness and chaos by an earthquake.

As they put it, the lights/things on the nightstand were no longer on the nightstand and there was glass on the floor, hence groping and fumbling around in the darkness was even more dangerous.

If I'm ever back in earthquake territory, I'll have to remember to keep a light around my neck even while sleeping.


Max


----------



## Tre_Asay

I used to neck carry a thrunite t10. In fact I am planning on doing so again starting next week.
It was not too big and I forgot that I was wearing it under my shirt until I needed it.
I like the neck carry because it will stay with you even if you dump out your pockets.
I have come to realize that it is importaint to always have access to a usefull light. If I have to take off all of my flashlights for sports or swimming I will put one on moonlight mode to light up the location of my stuff.


----------



## jrmcferren

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Looks like those of us in California are probably going to experience about a month or more of blackouts this year due to the Porter Ranch methane leak. Officials are saying that the leak at the Aliso Ranch gas storage facility, the largest natural gas facility in the western U.S., and the subsequent shutdown and testing of the remaining underground gas wells will reduce this year's supply of natural gas in California to an extent that over 14 days in the summer and up to 18 days in the winter could have blackouts.
> Here's the news article: www.foxnews.com/us/2016/04/05/gas-leak-may-cause-blackouts-in-california-officials-say.html?intcmp=hplnws
> Here's California Independent System Operator's action plan: www.energy.ca.gov/2016_energypolicy/documents/2016-04-08_joint_agency_workshop/Aliso_Canyon_Action_Plan_to_Preserve_Gas_and_Electric_Reliability_for_the_Los_Angeles_Basin.pdf
> Skip down to page 18 for risk assessment, Table 6 on page 23 gives you their findings on the number of days we will be short on gas (and electricity)
> Remember, according to CA ISO, 58.8% of our power in California comes from natural gas: www.caiso.com/informed/Pages/CleanGrid/default.aspx
> If you live in California like I do, now is a good time to stock up on supplies if you haven't already.



Get some battery operated fans and lots of Batteries for them. Amazon stocks AmazonBasics Brand Alkalines in bulk if you need them, they are also prime eligible.


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## braddy

People should also think in terms of first aid for heat, and that battery powered fan helps with that, people affected should freshen up on the basics for heat treatments, a single day of unexpected heat could become a medical issue in their home or the home of a neighbor.

I'm savvy about heat but I did buy one of those fans and a Frogg Togg cooling towel as part of my desert first aid kit.


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## RickZ

Propane generators aren't very efficient but you don't have to rotate the fuel.


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## pblanch

bluemax_1 said:


> ^^^
> 
> And that still doesn't count the light on the cellphone which would be the absolute last resort as I'd rather save the battery on my comms device for emergency communications than drain it for lighting or playing games, videos and surfing the web as I watched many people do in the last blackout I was in. Without knowing how long the outage would last (in that case, about 7 hours) more than one person drained their cellphone flat, using them for entertainment, eventually necessitating borrowing someone else's phone to make calls.
> 
> Even worse were the ones panicking because their phone was now dead and they hadn't memorized key numbers. Lucky for those folks, I had my work bag with the 1-cell 18650 charger which can use a charged 18650 to power the built-in USB port to give their phones enough of a charge to make their calls.
> 
> Max



Last thing I would be doing would be using my phone to catch up on movies ect. I have no idea why anyone would waste their battery like that in an emergency. 

Damn, it annoys me when I turn up to an emergency scene at night and the other Emergency services officers want to borrow my torch (and yes I have seen 1 get out his iphone and have a look at an scene at night!). I usually tell them no ...I am using it... and they usually get angry with me, but I usually bite back so as to stop them in their tracks as it usually isn't the time to get into an argument. Especially in front of others.


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## Lynx_Arc

pblanch said:


> Last thing I would be doing would be using my phone to catch up on movies ect. I have no idea why anyone would waste their battery like that in an emergency.
> 
> Damn, it annoys me when I turn up to an emergency scene at night and the other Emergency services officers want to borrow my torch (and yes I have seen 1 get out his iphone and have a look at an scene at night!). I usually tell them no ...I am using it... and they usually get angry with me, but I usually bite back so as to stop them in their tracks as it usually isn't the time to get into an argument. Especially in front of others.


I don't blame you in that the one time that they forget to give you back your $50+ torch they think nothing of it but you are out the cost of it and the hassle of getting another one (if you have to order it and wait for the mail.) I don't loan expensive stuff to people that I'm not sure will get it back to me or I can't get ahold of to get it back or would be responsible for loss or damage to it.


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## bluemax_1

Lynx_Arc said:


> I don't blame you in that the one time that they forget to give you back your $50+ torch they think nothing of it but you are out the cost of it and the hassle of getting another one (if you have to order it and wait for the mail.) I don't loan expensive stuff to people that I'm not sure will get it back to me or I can't get ahold of to get it back or would be responsible for loss or damage to it.



Lol, hence why I carry convenient cheap spares as 'loaners'. The 4-5 light minimum that I listed is just my EDC and I have those on me anytime I leave the house with my wallet and phone.

The ONLY time I don't have those with me is if I go out WITHOUT my wallet (eg. running/biking), in which case, I just have my ID just in case (with a couple of $20 bills), and the house key with the Mi10.

When I have my work bag, I also have a Zebralight headlamp, a TM26 and I also have more Pico lights on the zipper pulls of the bag, including a UST LR44 (slightly smaller than thumb sized, but bigger than a Pico and brighter with more run time, so that adds 5 more lights (with 3 more cheap spares for a total of 5 'loaners' I wouldn't be fazed about never getting back).


Max


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## ajl

braddy said:


> People should also think in terms of first aid for heat, and that battery powered fan helps with that, people affected should freshen up on the basics for heat treatments, a single day of unexpected heat could become a medical issue in their home or the home of a neighbor.
> 
> I'm savvy about heat but I did buy one of those fans and a Frogg Togg cooling towel as part of my desert first aid kit.



I recall from my past experience that pushing hot air around (above 100) doesn't do a whole lot of good. Rather a cooler wet towel or clean wet washrag on the neck or head, and taking a cool shower before trying to sleep helped. Out West, cooler water will probably be the key, assuming you still have running water.


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## braddy

That would be the Frogg Togg cooling towel mentioned in the suggestion, any wet cloth works abut the Frogg Togg is specifically made for evaporation cooling, and of course a bathtub if needed.


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## reppans

My base system is similar to Bluemax's - a low voltage Quark Pro, but I'm running a 16650. The Quark's low lumen mode spacing, wide voltage regulation, and efficiency make the most versatile and long running light in my arsenal. I can run AAA/AA/CR123s of any chemistry in the tube with easily made tinfoil spacers, but the head can run on any battery with a paperclip. Also EDC a tiny USB battery charger/bank that handles both NiMh and Li-ion cells, so my phone can be juiced up from my 16650 or Eneloops from my radio. Course, I have other back-ups too.


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## reppans

Evaporative cooling works well in the drier climates of the desert and the West, but feels pretty clammy/nasty in the humidity of the East. Our basement would be the extreme temperature haven here - during long power outages, the interior of our home has seen the 30s and 90s, but the basement never got below 50 or more than 75.


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## braddy

Because of the announced up to 32 days of blackouts for Southern California, I think we are currently focused on the desert and semi-desert climate here.

I was born and raised in Houston, I know humidity, but in So. California that isn't much of an issue.


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## reppans

So how about basements? Do they have them out there?


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## ajl

To return to the subject of lights, I purchased two Energizer LED folding lanterns that uses either 4 or 8 AA's a few years ago. I took the batteries out for storage, and have never needed to use them, but they do a nice safe job in lighting up a room.


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## braddy

Not many, but some do have very large crawl spaces under their houses, some portions which are large (the ground is often inclined) enough that they could use the space if they wanted to, some do for the furnace, and storage.

When I first moved from the beach to where I am now and ran into 113 degree temps, I went down to the tiny creek/(city drainage ditch) 100 feet away, and checked the temps under the bridge, it was about 10 to 12 degrees cooler, I figured that in an emergency we could take the elderly there and have them sty cool.


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## StarHalo

braddy said:


> I'm savvy about heat but I did buy one of those fans and a Frogg Togg cooling towel as part of my desert first aid kit.



Anyone who lives in an area with hot summer days at all should have a Frogg Togg and a battery-powered fan just for daily convenience; these are items that once used seem immediately indispensable and you won't know why you didn't have them before. Under $20 _for both_. My review of a battery powered fan earlier in the thread is here.



pblanch said:


> Last thing I would be doing would be using my phone to catch up on movies ect. I have no idea why anyone would waste their battery like that in an emergency.



I would have agreed to minimal phone use a few years ago, but so many services are available now that it may make more sense to take advantage of the information it can provide. My phone notifies me of emergency broadcast system alerts, local breaking news, aside from the news and weather apps, the apps that can play local news radio, going to utility sites and checking outage maps, etc. It's important to have the really helpful tools at hand when the power goes out, and the phone is about as helpful as it gets; better to have a battery pack ready to keep it up and running than to be left in the dark.


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## braddy

It was your review which led me to buy that fan.

But you never completed your run time report. :mecry:

I have a bunch of Tenergy Ds and Alkaline Ds.


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## Grijon

Two quick notes on emergency cell phone use:

When you learn that you don't know when you'll next be able to charge your phone you can turn your screen brightness all the way down and turn off everything that the phone allows you to; this will dramatically extend your battery life. Examples to turn off would include Bluetooth, WiFi and active location. Restarting the phone might extend battery life, too, by clearing the phone's slate of active apps.

Some phones have a built-in battery-extending program that turns on when the phone reaches 20% of remaining charge. These settings/programs/apps usually allow you to turn them on manually and/or set at what percentage they will activate; if you're in an emergency situation and don't know when you'll get your next charge you can tell the phone to go to "eco" mode to get the most out of the charge that you have.


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## Poppy

Grijon said:


> Two quick notes on emergency cell phone use:
> 
> When you learn that you don't know when you'll next be able to charge your phone you can turn your screen brightness all the way down and turn off everything that the phone allows you to; this will dramatically extend your battery life. Examples to turn off would include Bluetooth, WiFi and active location. Restarting the phone might extend battery life, too, by clearing the phone's slate of active apps.
> 
> Some phones have a built-in battery-extending program that turns on when the phone reaches 20% of remaining charge. These settings/programs/apps usually allow you to turn them on manually and/or set at what percentage they will activate; *if you're in an emergency situation and don't know when you'll get your next charge you can tell the phone to go to "eco" mode to get the most out of the charge that you have*.


Is eco mode the same as *airplane mode*?


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> Is eco mode the same as *airplane mode*?



Not exactly. Eco mode shuts down a lot of processes and usually dims the screen as well. It cuts the power draw to a minimum.

On the subject of wasting power on cellphones, what's with the idiots who turn on the setting so the phone's flash LED is on bright the entire time they're talking on the phone? They've got the phone to the side of their face so it isn't as if they're lighting up anything they're looking at. They're just blinding other folks.

Is it an insecurity thing? I.e. "Look at me! Look at me! I'm on my phone! Aren't I cool? Pleeease look at me!"

????


Max


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## pblanch

bluemax_1 said:


> On the subject of wasting power on cellphones, what's with the idiots who turn on the setting so the phone's flash LED is on bright the entire time they're talking on the phone? They've got the phone to the side of their face so it isn't as if they're lighting up anything they're looking at. They're just blinding other folks.
> 
> Is it an insecurity thing? I.e. "Look at me! Look at me! I'm on my phone! Aren't I cool? Pleeease look at me!"
> 
> Max



I have never seen it myself but seems it would be the case. Although they would justify it somehow.


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## MidnightDistortions

bluemax_1 said:


> Not exactly. Eco mode shuts down a lot of processes and usually dims the screen as well. It cuts the power draw to a minimum.
> 
> On the subject of wasting power on cellphones, what's with the idiots who turn on the setting so the phone's flash LED is on bright the entire time they're talking on the phone? They've got the phone to the side of their face so it isn't as if they're lighting up anything they're looking at. They're just blinding other folks.
> 
> Is it an insecurity thing? I.e. "Look at me! Look at me! I'm on my phone! Aren't I cool? Pleeease look at me!"
> 
> ????
> 
> 
> Max



I use battery defender and battery widget pro. They work pretty good for the most part and if you also shut down any and all apps (some will start up with the phone) you shouldn't lose much if any power like 1-3% loss within 10-20 hours. I never understood the need to have a light on while you are talking on the phone. I didn't have a flashlight on me one time but had my cellphone so it's light came in handy. If there was a power outage and couldn't charge my phone (i do have the Goal Zero usb charger with 4AA's) i would probably just turn the phone off, especially if someone else is around that has one.. i always let them use up their battery life first lol. But i generally keep a charging cord and a portable usb charger so that way i always got some way to recharge my phone if needed.


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## Poppy

I have multiple power ports and usb ports and chargers in my car.
I also usually have a power bank in there.

The beauty of having a power bank is that you can use it to charge your phone while "on the go". When needed, I carry my phone in my back pocket, and the power bank in my shirt pocket. OK captain obvious... so what!?

There are times that we may go out to dinner, and there isn't an outlet near our table, and we need to charge up. I much prefer having my inexpensive power bank being charged out of my sight, than my phone.

Even at an airport, I may not always be able to get a seat next to an outlet. I am comfortable charging my power bank 30 feet away, and casually keeping an eye on it, and have my phone in my hand. lol... so I guess this is not a true power outage... just a personal outage :laughing:


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## jrmcferren

The best way to extend smartphone battery life (and some models have this automated with a super eco mode) is to disable WiFi, Bluetooth, Location, and Mobile Data. Also dim the screen to the dimmest tolerable. This will allow you to make/receive phone calls and send/receive SMS text messages, but not MMS messages. In the event of rolling blackouts keeping a few of those inexpensive USB power banks around and charged is more than enough to get you through a rolling blackout even if you are using the phone heavily.


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## LeanBurn

My Samsung Galaxy 5 has ultra battery mode where it shuts everything down except for critical functions...battery goes from 2 days to a week easy.

When power goes down tho..my phone becomesy last priority..I would shut it off unless I absolutely needed to use it. I am not technologically attached like most are and can do without easily.


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## Hooked on Fenix

jrmcferren said:


> Get some battery operated fans and lots of Batteries for them. Amazon stocks AmazonBasics Brand Alkalines in bulk if you need them, they are also prime eligible.



I'm covered for fans as well. I have a couple Isun Battpacks (uses and charges 10 AAs or AAAs) that have a 12 volt socket to run a couple 12 volt car fans. I also have the solar panels for them as well. I have several USB fans (clearanced at Walmart for 50 cents each) and several USB battery packs to run them as well as the USB ports on my Milwaukee 12 and 18 volt lanterns. I have a couple evaporative cooling towels I got recently for $5 each. I have a Ridgid 18 volt fan and plenty of tool batteries for it (it's the best battery powered fan there is as far as I'm concerned). I also have a Goal Zero USB fan on order (The flexible USB fans don't last long. Either the fan burns out from using it too long or there it a short developed in the flexible neck.) Thanks for the reminder to check my preps though.


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## Poppy

Hooked on Fenix said:


> <snip> *Think about a house with two diabetics* and limited refrigeration (refrigerator on generator until gas runs out. Gas stations run on electricity). Think about four families on one property in the dark (have to provide lights and batteries for them to keep them from using candles and burning down the place). <snip>
> 
> *The ironic thing is that we have solar. Unfortunetely, it's a grid tied system. When the power goes out, our panels are shut off so they don't backfeed the grid* and kill someone working on the lines. <SNIP>



Considering your family's special needs, I am wondering if there isn't a way to harness the power of your solar panels when they are cut off so as not to back-feed the grid?


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## Gryffin

Well, we lost power for 9½ days during Superstorm Sandy, so I have some firsthand experience on the topic. I used to live in Los Angeles, too, where I lived through earthquakes, wildfires and "civil unrest," so I already had some experience and some planning in place. 

The Love O' My Life's son was living with his father at the time, so it was just me, her, and One-Eyed Jack, our dog. I'm sure preparation is a bit more complicated if you have children and/or the elderly to deal with, but our needs were fairly simple.

In our case, loss of electricity also meant loss of heat. Since the fireplace is in the living room, that became our primary living area. It was drafty, but with warm clothes and blankets it was tolerable. For the first few nights, at least… 

As a true flashoholic, I had lights staged, with freshly charged cells, and plenty of backups, including alkaline and lithium primaries. :thumbsup:

I had on hand a few lanterns for area light, a big Rayovac Sportsman 3xD, plus smaller Coleman and Rayovac 3xAA ones, and a weird, flat Energizer one. Turns out, the 3D was MAJOR overkill; even the "low" mode was far more light than we needed. We used the Coleman in the living room, to augment the light from the fire; the smaller Rayovac was kept in the kitchen for extra ambient light while prepping food. The Coleman is rated for 6 hours on High, but we got about three nights out of each set of batteries on Low. the Rayovac was used more intermittently, so I never had to change the batteries the whole time. The Energizer was kept in the bathroom, although we rarely used it.

What were far more useful were headlamps; she used the inexpensive Energizer one we kept by the door for walking the dog, I used my Zebralight H401, both kept in Low mode almost all the time. This took care of personal lighting for room navigation, reading, food prep, bathroom trips, just about everything. Hers ran on 3xAAA Eneloops and required two battery changes, mine ran on 1xAA Eneloop and required one battery change during the blackout.

I had some flashlights ready, too: a big 4D Maglight with Malkoff drop-in and LSD NiMH cells, my usual EDC 1xAA light in my pocket, and a few others I thought we'd need; turns out, between the lanterns and headlamps, we didn't have much need for regular flashlights at all. 

I used the Maglight only once, right after the winds subsided, to walk around the outside of the house and the neighborhood to inspect the damage. After that, I ditched it for my Thrunite Scorpion v2. This was before moonlight and truly low modes on big lights were common, the Scorpion was the only one I had at the time that could run low enough to use around the house in the dark *and* throw serious lumens if needed, *and* had a UI that didn't require cycling through modes I didn't need. I set the user-programmable mode to the lowest it would go, ~30 lumens, and that got the most use by far; I carried it whenever I went outside the house.

(It earned it's keep one night. I was walking Jack around the block, using the low mode as usual, and as we approached a group of parked cars, I noticed some movement. So did Jack. There were a few kids – teen to 20's – messing with the door of one of the cars. Their movements were furtive, were looking all around and trying to talk very quietly, and hence appeared to be up to no good. Cool thing with the Scorpion, you can change mode settings without actually changing modes, so I switched to Max and left the low mode running. As we got closer, I shined my 30 lumens of light in their direction, and asked "Can I help you?" One of the males turned around and started towards us; Jack snarled, I bumped the Scorpion's switch and hit him in the kisser with 800 lumens, the kid was so startled he lost his footing and fell down, Jack did his best Cujo impersonation, and all the kids scattered like cockroaches. 

I might have newer, fancier lights, but the Scorpion is still on my nightstand. :thumbsup

Anyway, back to the topic...

Phones *were* a problem. Our landline was VoIP through the cable company, so it was out for the duration; cell service was almost nonexistent, but we found we could (usually) send and receive texts to keep in touch with family. iPhone didn't have a dedicated Low Power Mode then, but we rationed power as best we could; kept the screen brightness waaaaaay down, and only checked for messages hourly or so; still, we were only getting a couple days out of a charge. I had an external battery pack, but it was only good for 2 recharges, and we had two phones. Then I got the idea to recharge the external pack out in my truck, bring it in the charge the phones, then put the pack back in the truck to recharge. (I didn't think of it at the time, but switching to Airplane Mode except for hourly checks would've kept the phones from wasting energy trying to hunt for cell towers, and we might've gone a week on each charge. D'OH!)

Anyway, final tally of batteries used: a half-dozen AAAs, maybe a dozen AAs, and 1 18650, all recharged soon after the lights came back on. No primaries required. Not bad for almost ten days!

---------------------

Other, non-flashlight-related notes:

*Water:* 
I'd stocked up ~10 gallons of drinking water before the storm hit, although since the water was still running, that wasn't really needed. In hindsight, it could've backfired: not only didn't I anticipate being almost ten days without power, it didn't occur to me that there could've been a water main break or something that could've cut off the water, or made it undrinkable. If I were to do it again, I would've filled up one of the bathtubs with water before the storm, just in case.

*Food:* 
I got our Coleman propane camp stove out of storage before the storm, so we could do some limited cooking: coffee, of course; egg sandwiches and/or oatmeal for breakfast; leftovers, grilled cheese sammiches, canned soup, hot dogs, burgers or canned stew (see below) for lunch and dinner.

As soon as the power went out, we grabbed whatever perishables we thought we'd need out of the kitchen refrigerator, and into the other fridge in the garage. It was quite a bit cooler out there, especially after a day with no heat, so I figured everything would keep pretty well. For a couple days, it worked pretty well, although some stuff in both freezers was starting to thaw; it also turned cold about four days in, which helped slow the thawing. By day 6, though, I was out scavenging for bags of ice to throw in the freezers to keep everything from spoiling; by day 8, we gave up on the fridge, and loaded what perishables we had left into a chest cooler half-full of bag ice. In retrospect, we should've done that on day 1, and only opened the fridge every couple days to replenish the cooler. As it was, though, we made it through, although we lost most of what was in the freezers. :shrug:

As for non-perishables... The Love O' My Life used to tease me about keeping a half dozen big cans of Dinty Moore Beef Stew in the back of a cabinet. It was a habit I picked up in California, after a neighbor pointed out that A) it was cheap; B) it contains meat, potatoes and veggies, a pretty well-rounded meal; C) kept forever at room temp; and D) could _in extremis_ could be eaten cold, if you have no way to heat it up. In other words, the best survival chow this side of MREs. She may never want to eat Dinty Moore Beef Stew ever again, but we had just one can left when it the lights came on, it was there when we needed it!

*Heat:
*As I mentioned, a cold snap hit day 4, making the next few nights pretty miserable. Our dinky little living room fireplace was designed for show, or for romantic evenings sipping wine, not for heating the house, or even the living room for that matter. The living room is open to the dining room, which has a cathedral ceiling to the second floor, so the heat mostly just dissipated upstairs, and drew cold drafts into the downstairs. If I'd known it was gonna be almost ten days, I might've tried nailing some comforters and blankets up to isolate the living room from the rest of the house.

*Security:*
We live in a large townhouse complex in a "good neighborhood," but still took precautions. Jack might only have one eye, but he has two ears; he barked at plenty of "false positives," but it was clear nobody was getting near the house without us knowing about it. That said, I kept "Thumper" (Mossberg 590 Marine) cozy and warm next to the fireplace, and when I ventured out at night, well let's just say Jack and the Scorpion weren't my only protection.


----------



## sgt253

Thanks for sharing. Real world experience can't be duplicated. I've learned much. Best.


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## Hooked on Fenix

Poppy said:


> Considering your family's special needs, I am wondering if there isn't a way to harness the power of your solar panels when they are cut off so as not to back-feed the grid?



Might work with a transfer switch, but I don't know if that would work with a smart meter in place. Might be able to keep power from going back on the grid and shocking the linesmen working on it with a transfer switch so it would be safe to use the panels, but the power company could probably still cut off our power from the panels to the house remotely via the smart meter.


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## eh4

At this point I think my daily carry is good for an extended power outage:

-AT P Pro V3 (one 18650) 
with good 100 day, 16 day, 2 day, and 8 hour levels. 

-ZL H600 W Mk II (one 18650) 
with good 2-5 month, and 2 week, 1 week, and 30 hour levels. 

-L3 Illumination L10, 4 mode Nichia (one AA) 
with good 1 week1, 1 day+, and 3 hour levels..
-That's 3 hours to find your shoes and pants and get your act together, and figure out where you put your essentials. Shouldn't even need a minute or two, so figured ten minutes with a 10-20x margin.


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## eraursls1984

Gryffin said:


> Other, non-flashlight-related notes:
> 
> *Water:*
> I'd stocked up ~10 gallons of drinking water before the storm hit, although since the water was still running, that wasn't really needed. In hindsight, it could've backfired: not only didn't I anticipate being almost ten days without power, it didn't occur to me that there could've been a water main break or something that could've cut off the water, or made it undrinkable. If I were to do it again, I would've filled up one of the bathtubs with water before the storm, just in case.


Look into the water Bob. It's about $20 and is a bladder for your bathtub.


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## bluemax_1

eraursls1984 said:


> Look into the water Bob. It's about $20 and is a bladder for your bathtub.



Read the reviews for the Water Bob and Aquapod (similar concepts/products). I ended up getting the Aquapod.


Max


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## braddy

Long ago, the first rule of an emergency was, fill the bathtub.

In recent decades it is almost never emphasized in general population emergency discussions.


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## Gryffin

eraursls1984 said:


> Look into the water Bob. It's about $20 and is a bladder for your bathtub.



My name isn't Bob, but I'll take a look. Thanks!


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## eh4

The Water Bob is cool, I'm glad it's priced appropriately and not unnecessarily pricy. 
Another good, basic bit of kit is a Sawyer Micro filter. They don't filter virus or chemicals but take care of all microbes, the same tech is used in dialysis. They can be rigged as gravity filters as well, and they're threaded for standard pop bottles. Very light, inexpensive, and versatile.


----------



## bluemax_1

eh4 said:


> The Water Bob is cool, I'm glad it's priced appropriately and not unnecessarily pricy.
> Another good, basic bit of kit is a Sawyer Micro filter. They don't filter virus or chemicals but take care of all microbes, the same tech is used in dialysis. They can be rigged as gravity filters as well, and they're threaded for standard pop bottles. Very light, inexpensive, and versatile.



Sawyer actually has two versions (filtration levels), the standard Sawyer filters microbes (bacteria, giardia, parasites etc) at 0.1 microns. The other filter goes down to 0.02 microns and DOES filter out viruses.

Important note is that the viral filter is much slower. 

For home use(due to the dimensions, this isn't a great pack option), another option is the Lifestraw Family (usually around the $60 range on Amazon). It also filters down to the virus level (there's a video of one of the top guys in the company using the Lifestraw Family in a village in Africa to filter water that has deliberately had a dollop of fresh cow manure added to it, then drinking it).

Also important to note is that none of these filters I've listed remove dissolved solids or chemicals. They do nothing to remove lead contamination, fuel etc.

One of the more complete solutions for extreme cases (aside from hoarding bottled water) is to triple up with a prefilter to filter bigger particles that will clog the filters, then either use an activated carbon filter next followed by a viral filter, or some prefer having the viral before the carbon.

GAC (Granulated Activated Carbon) is available online in quantities, allowing you to make (or refill) your own activated carbon filter. Get the food grade GAC.

Alternatively, ZeroWater filters do the best job of filtering dissolved contaminants of the commercial filters at medium price points. Berkey filters have tested equally effective at removing contaminants to the same level of effectiveness, but are significantly more expensive and potentially more problematic.

My home backup/emergency water purification setup consists of coffee filters for pre-filter media + a Sawyer viral filter and Zero Water filters. I also have the Sawyer kit in my BOB Frankensteined with the Platypus gravity system and a GAC inline filter.


Max


----------



## bluemax_1

Double post


----------



## RobertMM

Poppy said:


> Considering your family's special needs, I am wondering if there isn't a way to harness the power of your solar panels when they are cut off so as not to back-feed the grid?



There are newer systems now like grid tied with battery bank backup, with auto switches that prevent feeding power to the grid. 
Some people in the FB page in my country have such systems, with outages in their areas so common. 1Kw of panels, five 200Ah deep discharge batteries and all-in one inverter+solar controller+intelligent switch enables seamless power generation during the day and instant kick in during outages, with the option to use the batteries as generators during the night or purely as battery backups during outages.

Not having that sort of dough and living alone anyway, I settled on a small off-grid system which is basically a huge power bank, but able to run lights, electric fans, TV and all the gadgets or batteries I need to charge.


----------



## Burgess

Very interesting and useful thread here !


Slightly off-topic, 
but please allow me to ask a dumb question:


Would any of those above-mentioned water filters
be useful with Sea Water ? ? ?


Or is a " solar still " the only solution ?


Thank you .


----------



## braddy

Saltwater is a different thing entirely, are you on the coast or is it for a boat?


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Found out using the solar panels for a grid tied system isn't even an option. Not only is using the panels during a blackout to run the house violating the contract with the solar panel company, it's downright dangerous. Grid tied panels use microinverters that are designed to always provide power when on grid. When power is cut off, the panels are shut off. This is to prevent catching the roof on fire. You see, microinverters don't have a neutral or grounded conductor (a return path for the unbalanced/unused load/power). This means that if you were to somehow use the panels to power the house directly, any unused power would have nowhere to go. It would build up as heat on your roof, overheat the wires and burn your house down. Using too much power at any given time would cause brownouts and would likely damage some equipment. Alternatively, if you have a large bank of batteries to use the excess power for charging and use the batteries to run appliances to avoid using more power than the panels take in at any given time, it would solve your problems, but at a high cost for batteries. The only way we can actually use our panels is to charge up batteries while we have power and run things on the batteries when the power is turned off. Kind of a lame setup if you ask me. I am wondering if the people running the grid had considered: 1. Nearly 60% of the state's power comes from power plants run on natural gas. 2. Thanks to the EPA and the current administration, there are very few coal fired power plants (no alternative fuels to use) and all diesel backup generators have been replaced with natural gas ones (no backup power for emergency services). 3. Grid tied solar systems and wind generators on private property will be shut down and useless for producing power during a blackout compounding the problem. 4. Hydroelectric generation in the Los Angeles area is a joke. Water leaving a dam producing power during peak daytime hours requires more power to pump it back into the lake at night during off peak hours. Basically, it's a money making sceme that doesn't work anymore with a total net loss of power.


----------



## Grijon

lovecpf

You guys are awesome.


----------



## Grijon

Poppy said:


> Is eco mode the same as *airplane mode*?





bluemax_1 said:


> Not exactly. Eco mode shuts down a lot of processes and usually dims the screen as well. It cuts the power draw to a minimum.



Max has it: Airplane mode is trying to eliminate radio interference, not save power, so it disables your device's radio transmissions - which means no more communication.

Eco modes tries to save power by turning off everything except voice and text, and dimming the screen - and these are all things you can do manually, too, if that's easier!


----------



## Poppy

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Found out using the solar panels for a grid tied system isn't even an option. Not only is using the panels during a blackout to run the house violating the contract with the solar panel company, it's downright dangerous. Grid tied panels use microinverters that are designed to always provide power when on grid. When power is cut off, the panels are shut off. This is to prevent catching the roof on fire. *You see, microinverters don't have a neutral or grounded conductor (a return path for the unbalanced/unused load/power). This means that if you were to somehow use the panels to power the house directly, any unused power would have nowhere to go.* It would build up as heat on your roof, overheat the wires and burn your house down. Using too much power at any given time would cause brownouts and would likely damage some equipment. Alternatively, if you have a large bank of batteries to use the excess power for charging and use the batteries to run appliances to avoid using more power than the panels take in at any given time, it would solve your problems, but at a high cost for batteries. The only way we can actually use our panels is to charge up batteries while we have power and run things on the batteries when the power is turned off. Kind of a lame setup if you ask me.


I'd imagine that another controller could be wired in, and then switched on, to allow direct use of the solar energy, maybe a car battery or two might be used as a buffer, and any excess energy can be wasted by shorting it to ground... a cable attached to a grounding rod buried into the ground(earth).

I realize that this would be inefficient, because some produced power will be wasted, but being cut off completely, is a total loss of potential power.

I am only imagining this, because, I sometimes make things up in my mind. I don't know anything about solar energy. I'm thinking that if we can use small panels, through a controller, why not large ones?


----------



## Poppy

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Found out using the solar panels for a grid tied system isn't even an option. Not only is *using the panels during a blackout to run the house violating the contract with the solar panel company, it's downright dangerous*. Grid tied panels use microinverters that are designed to always provide power when on grid. When power is cut off, the panels are shut off.


I am so happy that this was brought up.

I casually consider adding solar to my house, but haven't looked seriously into it. I know there are pluses and minuses. I NEVER considered that I may not be able to use it during an outage. I always assumed that I could!

Looking ahead, I would insist on having a setup where I could run the house during an outage, if necessary, before I would sign a contract.


----------



## bluemax_1

Burgess said:


> Very interesting and useful thread here !
> 
> 
> Slightly off-topic,
> but please allow me to ask a dumb question:
> 
> 
> Would any of those above-mentioned water filters
> be useful with Sea Water ? ? ?
> 
> 
> Or is a " solar still " the only solution ?
> 
> 
> Thank you .



What you're looking for is called a desalinator. None of the previously mentioned setups will make seawater drinkable. In theory, the ZeroWater pitchers remove all TDS (total dissolved solids) and in fact, one of the methods of testing the TDS meters is by using calibrated saline (salt water) solutions.

The ZeroWater pitchers with new filters can produce water with a zero '0' TDS reading (hence the name), but desalination is not its intended usage and I don't think it would work very well for that purpose for very long.

It does pose an interesting experiment for someone on the coast with a ZeroWater pitcher though. The filters in bulk cost about $10ea. If I lived by the coast, I would definitely sacrifice one of the filters to see if it can desalinate seawater, and how many cups/gallons/liters a new filter can desalinate if it can even do it. Would be good info to know.

As for getting a purpose built desalinator, they're expensive. The smallest, cheapest emergency desalinator by Katadyn (who of course, also make water filters for backpacking) is about $950 - $1000 and takes a lot of manual pumping to produce the drinkable water. For a household, the next bigger model produces more water, but doubles in price.

I wouldn't bother with a solar still. While it can produce 'some' water. You're not going to want to rely on it.

By far, the cheapest practical method to produce a decent amount of drinkable water from seawater, if you have some fuel source (whether it's gas, wood etc.) is to build a steam distillery, but it's going to eat up fuel.

If I lived on the coast, I'd get a desalinator for that huge source of water.


Max


----------



## kilogulf59

Gryffin said:


> Well, we lost power for 9½ days during Superstorm Sandy, so I have some firsthand experience on the topic. I used to live in Los Angeles, too, where I lived through earthquakes, wildfires and "civil unrest," so I already had some experience and some planning in place.
> 
> The Love O' My Life's son was living with his father at the time, so it was just me, her, and One-Eyed Jack, our dog. I'm sure preparation is a bit more complicated if you have children and/or the elderly to deal with, but our needs were fairly simple.
> 
> In our case, loss of electricity also meant loss of heat. Since the fireplace is in the living room, that became our primary living area. It was drafty, but with warm clothes and blankets it was tolerable. For the first few nights, at least…
> 
> As a true flashoholic, I had lights staged, with freshly charged cells, and plenty of backups, including alkaline and lithium primaries. :thumbsup:
> 
> I had on hand a few lanterns for area light, a big Rayovac Sportsman 3xD, plus smaller Coleman and Rayovac 3xAA ones, and a weird, flat Energizer one. Turns out, the 3D was MAJOR overkill; even the "low" mode was far more light than we needed. We used the Coleman in the living room, to augment the light from the fire; the smaller Rayovac was kept in the kitchen for extra ambient light while prepping food. The Coleman is rated for 6 hours on High, but we got about three nights out of each set of batteries on Low. the Rayovac was used more intermittently, so I never had to change the batteries the whole time. The Energizer was kept in the bathroom, although we rarely used it.
> 
> What were far more useful were headlamps; she used the inexpensive Energizer one we kept by the door for walking the dog, I used my Zebralight H401, both kept in Low mode almost all the time. This took care of personal lighting for room navigation, reading, food prep, bathroom trips, just about everything. Hers ran on 3xAAA Eneloops and required two battery changes, mine ran on 1xAA Eneloop and required one battery change during the blackout.
> 
> I had some flashlights ready, too: a big 4D Maglight with Malkoff drop-in and LSD NiMH cells, my usual EDC 1xAA light in my pocket, and a few others I thought we'd need; turns out, between the lanterns and headlamps, we didn't have much need for regular flashlights at all.
> 
> I used the Maglight only once, right after the winds subsided, to walk around the outside of the house and the neighborhood to inspect the damage. After that, I ditched it for my Thrunite Scorpion v2. This was before moonlight and truly low modes on big lights were common, the Scorpion was the only one I had at the time that could run low enough to use around the house in the dark *and* throw serious lumens if needed, *and* had a UI that didn't require cycling through modes I didn't need. I set the user-programmable mode to the lowest it would go, ~30 lumens, and that got the most use by far; I carried it whenever I went outside the house.
> 
> (It earned it's keep one night. I was walking Jack around the block, using the low mode as usual, and as we approached a group of parked cars, I noticed some movement. So did Jack. There were a few kids – teen to 20's – messing with the door of one of the cars. Their movements were furtive, were looking all around and trying to talk very quietly, and hence appeared to be up to no good. Cool thing with the Scorpion, you can change mode settings without actually changing modes, so I switched to Max and left the low mode running. As we got closer, I shined my 30 lumens of light in their direction, and asked "Can I help you?" One of the males turned around and started towards us; Jack snarled, I bumped the Scorpion's switch and hit him in the kisser with 800 lumens, the kid was so startled he lost his footing and fell down, Jack did his best Cujo impersonation, and all the kids scattered like cockroaches.
> 
> I might have newer, fancier lights, but the Scorpion is still on my nightstand. :thumbsup
> 
> Anyway, back to the topic...
> 
> Phones *were* a problem. Our landline was VoIP through the cable company, so it was out for the duration; cell service was almost nonexistent, but we found we could (usually) send and receive texts to keep in touch with family. iPhone didn't have a dedicated Low Power Mode then, but we rationed power as best we could; kept the screen brightness waaaaaay down, and only checked for messages hourly or so; still, we were only getting a couple days out of a charge. I had an external battery pack, but it was only good for 2 recharges, and we had two phones. Then I got the idea to recharge the external pack out in my truck, bring it in the charge the phones, then put the pack back in the truck to recharge. (I didn't think of it at the time, but switching to Airplane Mode except for hourly checks would've kept the phones from wasting energy trying to hunt for cell towers, and we might've gone a week on each charge. D'OH!)
> 
> Anyway, final tally of batteries used: a half-dozen AAAs, maybe a dozen AAs, and 1 18650, all recharged soon after the lights came back on. No primaries required. Not bad for almost ten days!
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> Other, non-flashlight-related notes:
> 
> *Water:*
> I'd stocked up ~10 gallons of drinking water before the storm hit, although since the water was still running, that wasn't really needed. In hindsight, it could've backfired: not only didn't I anticipate being almost ten days without power, it didn't occur to me that there could've been a water main break or something that could've cut off the water, or made it undrinkable. If I were to do it again, I would've filled up one of the bathtubs with water before the storm, just in case.
> 
> *Food:*
> I got our Coleman propane camp stove out of storage before the storm, so we could do some limited cooking: coffee, of course; egg sandwiches and/or oatmeal for breakfast; leftovers, grilled cheese sammiches, canned soup, hot dogs, burgers or canned stew (see below) for lunch and dinner.
> 
> As soon as the power went out, we grabbed whatever perishables we thought we'd need out of the kitchen refrigerator, and into the other fridge in the garage. It was quite a bit cooler out there, especially after a day with no heat, so I figured everything would keep pretty well. For a couple days, it worked pretty well, although some stuff in both freezers was starting to thaw; it also turned cold about four days in, which helped slow the thawing. By day 6, though, I was out scavenging for bags of ice to throw in the freezers to keep everything from spoiling; by day 8, we gave up on the fridge, and loaded what perishables we had left into a chest cooler half-full of bag ice. In retrospect, we should've done that on day 1, and only opened the fridge every couple days to replenish the cooler. As it was, though, we made it through, although we lost most of what was in the freezers. :shrug:
> 
> As for non-perishables... The Love O' My Life used to tease me about keeping a half dozen big cans of Dinty Moore Beef Stew in the back of a cabinet. It was a habit I picked up in California, after a neighbor pointed out that A) it was cheap; B) it contains meat, potatoes and veggies, a pretty well-rounded meal; C) kept forever at room temp; and D) could _in extremis_ could be eaten cold, if you have no way to heat it up. In other words, the best survival chow this side of MREs. She may never want to eat Dinty Moore Beef Stew ever again, but we had just one can left when it the lights came on, it was there when we needed it!
> 
> *Heat:
> *As I mentioned, a cold snap hit day 4, making the next few nights pretty miserable. Our dinky little living room fireplace was designed for show, or for romantic evenings sipping wine, not for heating the house, or even the living room for that matter. The living room is open to the dining room, which has a cathedral ceiling to the second floor, so the heat mostly just dissipated upstairs, and drew cold drafts into the downstairs. If I'd known it was gonna be almost ten days, I might've tried nailing some comforters and blankets up to isolate the living room from the rest of the house.
> 
> *Security:*
> We live in a large townhouse complex in a "good neighborhood," but still took precautions. Jack might only have one eye, but he has two ears; he barked at plenty of "false positives," but it was clear nobody was getting near the house without us knowing about it. That said, I kept "Thumper" (Mossberg 590 Marine) cozy and warm next to the fireplace, and when I ventured out at night, well let's just say Jack and the Scorpion weren't my only protection.



I would like to personally thank you for sharing this. Your commentary is interesting and highly informative in that it comes from someone who has really been there and literately done that and not some self-marketing motivated blog jockey.

By the way, I always thought headlamps could be useful on the job however, until I read your commentary, I never gave much thought to them in a crisis situation.

Thanks again and may you never have to go through that again.


----------



## braddy

I think a quality headlamp for blackouts is indispensable, whether nailing a board over a window in high winds or grabbing blowing lawn furniture, or working on the generator in the garage, in many blackout situations you need a rock solid waterproof headlamp to do difficult chores. 

For inside the house just sitting around talking or playing cards, you want a super light headlamp that has very dim settings and that you can just keep on your head the entire time, and Fenix has one that is perfect for that, the Fenix HL05, it has a setting low enough that you and the wife can sit in the living room with them, without bothering each other's eyes, also adequate for reading and preparing food. 

High: 8 Lumens for 50 hours
Low: 3 Lumens for 90 hours
Red: 0.2 Lumens for 75 hours


----------



## reppans

FWIW, I wouldn't spend money on those Water BOB things.... the money would be better spent on spare Sawyer Squeezes (Mini's clogs much faster) - just clean your tub before filling it, and filter your drinking water as needed (wouldn't even bother filtering cooking water). 

Filling bathtubs as a precautionary measure is great, and we did that for Sandy, and a few other bad storm forecasts, but in the end, our public water supply never failed, although power had for several 4-5 day stretches. So we just pull the drain plug after the emergency passed, and were back to normal. If we had filled a Water BOB each time, they would have just been throw-aways, since there's no way to dry it out and ready it for next time.


----------



## Poppy

I've never tried it, but wonder if my drain plug would hold water for 3 or 4 days, or more.

I guess we don't really need a water BOB, and could just use a couple of black garbage bags. OF course we wouldn't try to lift the bag out with water in them, but three or four should fill the tub, and if they are side by side, each would hold the other up.


----------



## bluemax_1

Poppy said:


> I've never tried it, but wonder if my drain plug would hold water for 3 or 4 days, or more.
> 
> I guess we don't really need a water BOB, and could just use a couple of black garbage bags. OF course we wouldn't try to lift the bag out with water in them, but three or four should fill the tub, and if they are side by side, each would hold the other up.



If you trust the garbage bags not to leach any unwanted chemicals into the water that simple water filters don't remove. There are reasons why some plastics are rated food-grade and some are not.

For $20 and knowing that there isn't some soap residue or other chemicals etc in the water, I'll just go with the Aquapod, but preferences vary. I do recall the result of drinking water that had a bit of soap contamination as a kid, and having diarrhea on top of power/water outages isn't my idea of a good time.

As far as reusing them, folks have mentioned doing it by rinsing out the bag with a bleach solution then rigging up a hairdryer, but again, opinions vary, but $20 a pop for storing a large quantity of water in an emergency... Some folks spend way more than that on more flashlights and batteries than they'd need for 2 weeks. I can live 2 weeks without flashlights, it doesn't work so well without water.


Max


----------



## Gryffin

bluemax_1 said:


> but $20 a pop for storing a large quantity of water in an emergency... Some folks spend way more than that on more flashlights and batteries than they'd need for 2 weeks. I can live 2 weeks without flashlights, it doesn't work so well without water.



Good point. This is the thing you use once in a blue moon, at $20 it's cheap, disposable insurance.


----------



## reppans

Poppy, don't trust your tub drain to hold water, mine wouldn't last 2 days. Use a thin rubber or silicone disk or pad and the water pressure seals it up tight. 

Not sure batteries are comparable to Water Bobs - any primaries I stock are only a back-up to my rechargeables/RV generator/solar, and will last decades of potential emergencies. 

That said, agree we all have different risk tolerances and experiences. As a backpacker that regularly filters water from the wild, a home bathtub, even uncleaned, is the least of my worries. I actually only bother with the bathtub routine since I'm too lazy to haul buckets up from the streams/ponds down the street. My Sawyer filters + AA/NiMh Steripen have never give me a stomach problem, and I've pull water from frog swamps - lol, realized later after hiking up-stream.

And of course, as mentioned somewhere above, simply draining your hot water heater, toilet tanks, and home water pipes to a low point faucet, will yield enough good drinking water for a week or two.


----------



## bluemax_1

reppans said:


> Poppy, don't trust your tub drain to hold water, mine wouldn't last 2 days. Use a thin rubber or silicone disk or pad and the water pressure seals it up tight.
> 
> Not sure batteries are comparable to Water Bobs - any primaries I stock are only a back-up to my rechargeables/RV generator/solar, and will last decades of potential emergencies.
> 
> That said, agree we all have different risk tolerances and experiences. As a backpacker that regularly filters water from the wild, a home bathtub, even uncleaned, is the least of my worries. I actually only bother with the bathtub routine since I'm too lazy to haul buckets up from the streams/ponds down the street. My Sawyer filters + AA/NiMh Steripen have never give me a stomach problem, and I've pull water from frog swamps - lol, realized later after hiking up-stream.



Oddly enough, I have fewer issues with safe water in the wild than in industrial or built-up areas.

The one exception was while canyoning in Utah where the park ranger told us not to filter drinking water in the canyons as the filters couldn't remove heavy metal and chemical contaminants from mine tailings far upriver, or pesticide contamination from farms upriver.

We had to pack all our drinking water in, even though we were wading up to waist deep in running water at times.

Good filters/purifiers can handle most biological contaminants, but the backpacking kind aren't made for chemical contaminants, eg. the Sawyer and Lifestraw filters/purifiers, while great at removing microbes, bacteria, parasites (and even viruses for the purifiers) wouldn't have helped matters in the recent debacle in Flint with the heavy lead contamination. 

At the most, they would have filtered out the larger suspended particles, potentially lulling the users into a false sense of security. Lead poisoning is a difficult medical issue.

Another example of recent issues with household tap water was the incident in Toledo with microcystin contamination due to the cyanobacteria bloom in Lake Erie. These filters can't remove microcystin contamination (or the lead contamination in the Flint water), but proper treatment with GAC can (one of the ingredients used in larger quantities by water treatment plants in Toledo).

That's also one of the reasons I advocate GAC filtration capability in addition to microbial filtration in emergencies. It's the stuff we can't see that's most dangerous.

ZeroWater and Berkey type filters use GAC and independent lab testing has shown that they do a great job at eliminating things like lead, fuel, pesticide contamination and a host of other dissolved contaminants etc.

As I said, it's also possible to buy GAC in bags/tubs/buckets from suppliers (and cheaper for the quantity of activated carbon you're getting) and build your own GAC filter out of food grade buckets (and coffee filters for pre-filtering larger particles as well as post-filtering any carbon dust) and combining it with microbial filtering.



Max


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

Grijon said:


> lovecpf
> 
> You guys are awesome.



SUPER awesome!


----------



## Gryffin

bluemax_1 said:


> Another example of recent issues with household tap water was the incident in Toledo with microcystin contamination due to the cyanobacteria bloom in Lake Erie. These filters can't remove microcystin contamination (or the lead contamination in the Flint water), but proper treatment with GAC can (one of the ingredients used in larger quantities by water treatment plants in Toledo).



And "GAC" is...?

(Yes, I tried googling it already)


----------



## reppans

bluemax_1 said:


> Oddly enough, I have fewer issues with safe water in the wild than in industrial or built-up areas.



Make sense... fortunately for me, I reside and backpack on relatively high ground, despite living in a suburb of a major city on the Eastcoast, so hopefully most of my local wild water sources are fed primary from rain water and natural springs, with minimal human contamination/pollution. 

Anyways back on topic, I'm not worried about my bathtub adding nasty biological/chemical/metal contaminants to my public water supply that my backpacking filters/UV purifiers won't take care of. A quick cleaning of a tub with dishwashing liquid, followed by a hose down, can't be any worse than drinking out of the hand-washed cups from our kitchen.


----------



## bluemax_1

Gryffin said:


> And "GAC" is...?
> 
> (Yes, I tried googling it already)



Oops, my apologies. I mentioned it in an earlier post but got too lazy to keep typing it out.

GAC = Granulated Activated Carbon
http://www.buyactivatedcharcoal.com/product/granular_activated_charcoal/coconut/12x30_mesh


Max


----------



## Gryffin

Gryffin said:


> Well, we lost power for 9½ days during Superstorm Sandy, so I have some firsthand experience on the topic. I used to live in Los Angeles, too, where I lived through earthquakes, wildfires and "civil unrest," so I already had some experience and some planning in place.



*Update: a few additional thoughts*

*Light:* 
My circumstances aren't your circumstances. I had little need for a "big light," the Scorpion could easily light up the houses in front and behind like daylight, but I'm in a townhouse; if you have a rural/larger property, a good thrower, like that big heavy Maglight of mine, would be very useful to keep an eye on the fences/property lines. But again, when the lights are all out, you probably don't need near as much OOMPF as you might think. 

Also, my California emergency supply list included 4–6 novena candles. You've probably seen them in the grocery store in the hispanic section: tall glass cylindrical candles, about 2½" in diameter and about 9 inches tall. They're dirt cheap, and intended to burn for nine days; back before the LED revolution, they were a GREAT source of emergency light. Due to the glass container, they're highly unlikely to start a fire if knocked over, but seriously, good LED lanterns are cheap enough that you shouldn't have to bother. If money really is that tight, though, they're still a viable option.

*Water:*
In retrospect, I got VERY lucky: the water main on the main road nearby as burst *twice* just this winter, once due to a brutal cold snap, the other for reasons unknown. As pointed out in responses, filling a bathtub with fresh water *before* the possibility of losing water supply, is a VERY good idea. I know I considered it at the time, but like a lot of my planning, it was based on the false assumption that outages would only last 3–4 days, which is the longest we'd ever experienced before Sandy. Your usual bathtub stopper won't hold water for days on end; either add extra sealing in the form of cling wrap from the kitchen, plus duct tape across the top; or look into an emergency bladder like a Water Bob or Aqua Bob. (I have an Aqua Bob on order, even though there's no storm in sight, it's cheap insurance.)

*Security:*
One-Eyed Jack was a great watchdog, but I realize not everyone has a dog. I'm probably more paranoid than most, having had a front-row seat to the Rodney King riots in El Lay; you'll have to decide how much security you think you need based on your neighborhood. Setting up a 24-hour watch schedule is probably overkill unless you live in an actual high-crime area. If you have the misfortune to live in that sort of neighborhood, consider reaching out to "good guy" neighbors to help cover each other, there's safety in numbers. 

(A little-known anecdote about the King riots: the black community harbored long-standing resentment towards the Koreans who ran most of the bodegas in their neighborhoods, so when the rioting started, a mob headed towards Koreatown. They were surprised to find barricades on the streets, manned by Koreans armed with everything from baseball bats and tire irons to semi-auto rifles. Unlike surrounding neighborhoods, Koreatown was unscathed as a result. A visible presence of even a few determined Good Guys will deter just about any miscreants.)


----------



## Gryffin

bluemax_1 said:


> GAC = Granulated Activated Carbon
> http://www.buyactivatedcharcoal.com/product/granular_activated_charcoal/coconut/12x30_mesh



Ah! I thought it was something like that. Thanks.


----------



## Burgess

braddy said:


> Saltwater is a different thing entirely, are you on the coast or is it for a boat?




Neither one !


Just a question, that's all . . . .


Let us assume one is on the Coast.


Thank you for any input you can provide.


----------



## bluemax_1

Burgess said:


> Neither one !
> 
> 
> Just a question, that's all . . . .
> 
> 
> Let us assume one is on the Coast.
> 
> 
> Thank you for any input you can provide.



See post #1020


Max


----------



## bluemax_1

Burgess said:


> Neither one !
> 
> 
> Just a question, that's all . . . .
> 
> 
> Let us assume one is on the Coast.
> 
> 
> Thank you for any input you can provide.



See post #1020


Max


----------



## braddy

Burgess said:


> Neither one !
> 
> Just a question, that's all . . . .
> 
> Let us assume one is on the Coast.
> 
> Thank you for any input you can provide.



I lived for many years 70 feet from the Pacific in San Diego, and I had a big pressure cooker and a 60'coil of stainless steel tubing to make a still from, and I also kept the materials to make a large flat solar still in case natural gas wasn't available, I even tried my pressure cooker by going out and using a 5 gallon bucket to get my salt water and running it through a batch.

What I kept looking for was a used Katadan salt water hand filter, although that was years ago and I don't know what all is available today. 
Katadyn Survivor 06 Desalinator
Katadyn Survivor 35 Desalinator


If someone is a hardcore prepper and in a sunny place, they can purchase what they need for a solar still, but it is always best to test plans that you have never tried before, especially if you aren't used to making things.

Heck you can always just use the cheapo solar still of a hole in the ground, a sheet of plastic and instead of drawing moisture from the ground or vegetation that you throw in there, put in saucers of salt water and let the sun distill it.

In a situation where you have brackish or salty, or dirty water, and are in civilization, you can ALWAYS make drinking water, just google some ideas, pick up the cheap materials and do a practice run or two.

Remember that you can make a big box solar still with glass and wood that produces on a steady basis, will drain neatly into a container and that all you have to do is pour in some water periodically.


----------



## Gryffin

Burgess said:


> Neither one !
> 
> Just a question, that's all . . . .
> 
> Let us assume one is on the Coast.



Salt Lake City, perchance?


----------



## Lynx_Arc

What does filling a bathtub full of water have to do with batteries and lumens and lights?


----------



## Gryffin

Lynx_Arc said:


> What does filling a bathtub full of water have to do with batteries and lumens and lights?



Part of the "big picture" of dealing with prolonged power outages. Man doth not live by lumens alone.


----------



## braddy

Lynx_Arc said:


> What does filling a bathtub full of water have to do with batteries and lumens and lights?



It would be pretty unusual for flashlight people to not be interested in blackouts.


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc

This thread has been running for nearly three years now, and in the first 100 posts or so, we had pretty well covered batteries and light for lighting purposes.

At that time I asked one of the mods if it was acceptable to open it up a bit more, and change the title to ... "lights and more"
He said yes, that would be fine.

It was at that time that I added this edit to the OP.

As I write this, the thread is at post 95.
Overall, I'd say we did a nice job presenting what many people would be comfortable with. For the most part, we stayed away from particular lights, and spoke in generalities. That was my hope... I didn't want it to be another SHTF zombie thread. I wanted/hoped it would be instructional.

Well, we have gone beyond batteries for lights, to include, batteries for other power failure needs, although we only touched on them lightly, but things such as battery operated cooling fans, sump pump back-ups, and as a means to power one's furnace in the winter. We touched on using the car's alternator, or a small generator to charge a 12v deep cell battery/s.

Please enjoy reading through this thread, and make your contribution, if any at the end.
Thanks for reading this far! 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
So now that we are beyond post number 1,000. We have started to cover prepping in some other areas.
I think that is the natural evolution of a thread such as this and it has been done it a respectful, professional, and orderly manner.

I hope that you continue to contribute.
Thanks
Poppy



Lynx_Arc said:


> What does filling a bathtub full of water have to do with batteries and lumens and lights?


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Poppy said:


> Lynx_Arc
> 
> This thread has been running for nearly three years now, and in the first 100 posts or so, we had pretty well covered batteries and light for lighting purposes.
> 
> At that time I asked one of the mods if it was acceptable to open it up a bit more, and change the title to ... "lights and more"
> He said yes, that would be fine.
> 
> It was at that time that I added this edit to the OP.
> 
> As I write this, the thread is at post 95.
> Overall, I'd say we did a nice job presenting what many people would be comfortable with. For the most part, we stayed away from particular lights, and spoke in generalities. That was my hope... I didn't want it to be another SHTF zombie thread. I wanted/hoped it would be instructional.
> 
> Well, we have gone beyond batteries for lights, to include, batteries for other power failure needs, although we only touched on them lightly, but things such as battery operated cooling fans, sump pump back-ups, and as a means to power one's furnace in the winter. We touched on using the car's alternator, or a small generator to charge a 12v deep cell battery/s.
> 
> Please enjoy reading through this thread, and make your contribution, if any at the end.
> Thanks for reading this far!
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> So now that we are beyond post number 1,000. We have started to cover prepping in some other areas.
> I think that is the natural evolution of a thread such as this and it has been done it a respectful, professional, and orderly manner.
> 
> I hope that you continue to contribute.
> Thanks
> Poppy


I see no need in continuing to read this thread as I have no interest in uber long term water disaster preparation as I live in an area that our only concern is tornadoes and our whole city could be flattened by one and within a day there would be tons of water being rolled in to the city from the endless lakes and reservoirs nearby.


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc said:


> I see no need in continuing to read this thread as I have no interest in uber long term water disaster preparation as I live in an area that our only concern is tornadoes and our whole city could be flattened by one and within a day there would be tons of water being rolled in to the city from the endless lakes and reservoirs nearby.


Ok. Stop in now and then, perhaps at some point we'll be discussing using lights in SAR operations after a tornado. Or something else that will strike up your interest.


----------



## eh4

Good Thread! 
As a tangent, I stored some of my possessions in the unheated, uninsulated attic space of a relative's garage. 
I went up there recently and found a previously opened, expired jar of Jiffy peanut butter.... it had been freezing and simmering in that garage for two years mind you. 
It seemed fine, I scraped off the top 1/8" for luck and ate it, first just a little, and then the next day I finished it. -I told a relative too in case I died, but I put faith in my taste buds and there were no problems. 
Perfectly fine. 
If it had tasted off I would have quit, maybe even made myself throw up, but all was well. 
I really can't imagine putting a survival ration through a worse test.
Preservatives, whatever. Everytime I worry a bit about the future I pick up another jar of peanut butter.


----------



## braddy

Today I was thinking of how just a big bowl of cooked rice with a cup of hot water and a tablespoon or two of peanut butter is a pretty good survival meal in an emergency.


----------



## Wilburforce

Actually cooked rice is a surprisingly dangerous food to let lie around...
Bacillus cereus can lurk in there. As well as C. botulinum... You definitely need to reheat it past 140F thoroughly... so it's far better to just cook fresh for the next meal.


----------



## Gryffin

eh4 said:


> Good Thread!
> As a tangent, I stored some of my possessions in the unheated, uninsulated attic space of a relative's garage.
> I went up there recently and found a previously opened, expired jar of Jiffy peanut butter.... it had been freezing and simmering in that garage for two years mind you.
> It seemed fine, I scraped off the top 1/8" for luck and ate it, first just a little, and then the next day I finished it. -I told a relative too in case I died, but I put faith in my taste buds and there were no problems.
> Perfectly fine.
> If it had tasted off I would have quit, maybe even made myself throw up, but all was well.
> I really can't imagine putting a survival ration through a worse test.
> Preservatives, whatever. Everytime I worry a bit about the future I pick up another jar of peanut butter.



You're braver man than I!  :sick2:  :toilet: 

Seriously, though, peanut butter has a lot going for it: it's dense, keeps well, and packed with calories, proteins and electrolytes. I wouldn't want it to be my *only* survival ration, but you could certainly do worse.


----------



## Gryffin

Wilburforce said:


> Actually cooked rice is a surprisingly dangerous food to let lie around...
> Bacillus cereus can lurk in there. As well as C. botulinum... You definitely need to reheat it past 140F thoroughly... so it's far better to just cook fresh for the next meal.



Didn't know about the risk, although I guess any warm starchy stuff would be an ideal breeding ground. Fresh is definitely the way to go. All it takes is boiling water; heck, half the world relies on it as a staple.


----------



## Sphinxxx

I have thought about this just briefly and accidentally. My backpacking kit is set up for long periods without power. I have 6 watt and 2 watt Voltaic solar panels (highly recommend) with micro USB tips that can directly charge my MH20 and MecArmy SGN3 or can work with my Klarus 1 bay charger/power bank for my headlamp battery and backup power. Those little panels can also keep up with my little bluetooth speaker and MP3 player. That should have me covered for an extended period of time. The MH20 is a good light for bouncing off the ceiling to light a whole room, even on medium. Plus i find that 1 lumen headlamp is plenty for most tasks in a completely dark house. And that will last for weeks. If it were weeks on end i would definitely be sleeping more when its dark. 
So i only have three 18650s, two of them in lights and one in the Klarus, plus the MecArmy light as a backup. And solar to keep them charged. I can count on some decent sun here in high desert Nevada, even in the winter.


----------



## bluemax_1

Wilburforce said:


> Actually cooked rice is a surprisingly dangerous food to let lie around...
> Bacillus cereus can lurk in there. As well as C. botulinum... You definitely need to reheat it past 140F thoroughly... so it's far better to just cook fresh for the next meal.



Yes, and because it's moist, stuff grows on it very quickly.



Max


----------



## eh4

Wilburforce said:


> Actually cooked rice is a surprisingly dangerous food to let lie around...
> Bacillus cereus can lurk in there. As well as C. botulinum... You definitely need to reheat it past 140F thoroughly... so it's far better to just cook fresh for the next meal.



Good to know. 

I remember now, hearing that during the Vietnam War, rice that was brought in to feed people who's lives were disrupted by the war was cooked before being handed out. The rationale being that dry rice would find its way to the opposition, while cooked rice had to be eaten before it spoiled.


----------



## braddy

Carrying rice balls was a common field staple for the Vietnamese.

Sometimes our own deep penetration teams would carry rice balls as field rations.


----------



## reppans

Sphinxxx said:


> I have thought about this just briefly and accidentally. My backpacking kit is set up for long periods without power. I have 6 watt and 2 watt Voltaic solar panels (highly recommend) with micro USB tips that can directly charge my MH20 and MecArmy SGN3 or can work with my Klarus 1 bay charger/power bank for my headlamp battery and backup power..



Yup, backpacking gear is a great cross-over for power outage and EDC preparedness. I've been chasing UL backpacking gear lately (due to a knee injury) and have started EDCing some of it. My ~10lb/L messenger bag just needs a ~1lb sleeping bag, and ~1lb freeze-dried, to be a reasonably comfortable 3-season, 72-hr bag (incl. tent, stove, rain gear, ground pad). 

That Klarus CH1 is part of it too, even powerbanks NiMhs from my radio to my phone. I don't EDC or backpack solar though - either too big/heavy, or too slow/stationary - rather just pack, cannibalize, or scavenge batts. No 18650 lights either since I want to run any type alkaline in a pinch... however, I do run my "AA" light on a 16650 .


----------



## Poppy

reppans said:


> No 18650 lights either since I want to run any type alkaline in a pinch... however, I do run my "AA" light on a 16650 .


Oh sure... a 16650 tube running AA batteries, THAT doesn't beg an explanation


----------



## Gryffin

Poppy said:


> Oh sure... a 16650 tube running AA batteries, THAT doesn't beg an explanation



Have I been under a rock? I *never* heard of that size until very recently. Never seen one in the wild, either. Not sure why it exists; traditionally the single-cell alternative to 2x16340 was a 17670. Are 2xCR123 lights running THAT tight now?


----------



## eraursls1984

Gryffin said:


> Have I been under a rock? I *never* heard of that size until very recently. Never seen one in the wild, either. Not sure why it exists; traditionally the single-cell alternative to 2x16340 was a 17670. Are 2xCR123 lights running THAT tight now?


The highest capacity 17670 is still quite a bit lower than the highest 16650. I've only been into Li-Ion lights for about 5 years, but that's been the case since I first looked into the best option for a Foursevens QP2L-X.


----------



## Gryffin

eraursls1984 said:


> The highest capacity 17670 is still quite a bit lower than the highest 16650. I've only been into Li-Ion lights for about 5 years, but that's been the case since I first looked into the best option for a Foursevens QP2L-X.



That's right, I forgot those 47's were notoriously tight. Which is why I never got one.

Higher capacity from a smaller cell… that tells me, manufacturers are neglecting 17670s. Pity, I have several 2xCR123A lights that run nicely on 17670.


----------



## Gryffin

GAH!! Double-tap. Ignore. Move along people, nothing to see here…


----------



## Sphinxxx

I still think 18650s would be my doomsday batteries. Not much shelf life but pretty easy to charge solar, and one can last weeks on a low setting with minimal usage. It's not all that practical for my backpack. My backpacking solar panel weighs 4oz, so i could have 2 or 3 batteries instead. But i like the idea of not packing dead batteries. And i love the idea of turning daylight into nightlight. 
Lighting is the least lightweight thing in my pack. It's almost entirely unnecessary overkill. My sleep/shelter system (hammock, tarp, sleeping bag, pillow) is 25oz, and my lighting (HC30, MH20, MecArmy SGN3, 2w panel, klarus charger/bank, three 18650s) is 17 or 18oz. But i also use the panel and bank to run MP3 player and tiny bluetooth speaker. Actually i doubt the 2w can keep up with the additional lights i got for this year, so I upgraded to 6w solar and i should have a cushy amount of power. If i was not so blesses with amazing sunshine everywhere i have lived, i would reconsider.


----------



## eh4

Re: "doomsday batteries".
I'd like to see XEUS lights get the CPF and BLF treatment, they've got a very good idea which could be tweaked with newer components and ideal emitters. 
Something the size of an 18650, maybe a little longer for optics, which would passively charge in a week or two to give an hour or so of Bright light (thrower on one end, flood on the other), but would also give an hour of moonlight for each hour of ambient light charging... multiple output levels and a third red led as well. Maybe a photo cell as well for an option to turn itself on at dark -might be really handy for finding the thing after leaving it somewhere to charge all day. 
Permanently retained magnetic rings, nothing to lose, better solar, best quality ultra caps, a high CRI LED (flood?) and an extreme efficiency, low forward voltage one (spot?).
I'd pay a pretty penny for one that was done just right.


----------



## Poppy

Gryffin said:


> You're braver man than I!  :sick2:  :toilet:
> 
> Seriously, though, peanut butter has a lot going for it: it's dense, keeps well, and packed with calories, proteins and electrolytes. I wouldn't want it to be my *only* survival ration, but you could certainly do worse.


Well of course not... you'd need some Ritz crackers to go with it!


----------



## Poppy

Hurricane Preparedness Week: May 15-21, 2016

Hurricane Preparedness Week (May 15-21, 2016) is your time to prepare for a potential land-falling tropical storm or hurricane. Learn how with the related links...


----------



## BloodLust

I have 2 of these. Not this exact model but similar specs and from the same manufacturer.
12" 2-speed fan with a 4-5 LED light. it oscillates too.












I also have a handheld fan powered by 1x 18650. To make it safer, I charge the batteries externally on my Xtar charger and I use protected 18650s.






I have 2 flexible neck fans that I plug into USB ports. Also have 2 flexible neck LED lights that are USB powered too. The lights and fans are pretty decent. The lights are diffused and are a good reading light without much glare if at all.
The company fave out power banks with their logo on it for its anniversary giveaways. I use these just for the lights and fans since I already have my EDC one for my phone.










Plus I have 2 USB powered 4-inch tabletop fans where one has a base that 4x AAs can be inserted and powers the fan.


----------



## Poppy

BloodLust said:


> I have 2 flexible neck fans that I plug into USB ports. Also have 2 flexible neck LED lights that are USB powered too. The lights and fans are pretty decent. The lights are diffused and are a good reading light without much glare if at all.
> The company gave out power banks with their logo on it for its anniversary giveaways. I use these just for the lights and fans since I already have my EDC one for my phone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus I have 2 USB powered 4-inch tabletop fans where one has a base that 4x AAs can be inserted and powers the fan.



How well do these usb fans work?

How many batteries do you need for a 12 hour day?


----------



## BloodLust

Hi Poppy. They are actually not bad. Much better than the typical 2AA battery ones usually sold in travel or general merchandise stores. I used it for a 3 hour power outage. IIRC, it only used 1000mAh for the 2-3 hrs. I'm just basing this off the percentage from my power bank. No real scientific measurement or study from my part.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Poppy said:


> How well do these usb fans work?
> 
> How many batteries do you need for a 12 hour day?


I have a few of the right angle USB fans that have a micro USB slideout adapter in them that I believe draw about 500ma I'm guessing these fans draw about the same amount of current and power banks I estimate give you about 70% of the mah of the battery out as 5VDC due to step up conversion and losses so a 2600 power bank should power one for about 4 hours?
I measured the current the other fan that takes an 18650 from the battery and got about 800/600/400ma draw from it roughly I think it was more like 830/570/370. I also have a collection of various USB LED lights from 2 SMD LEDs to dimmable 6 SMD LEDs but my USB current meter cannot measure some of them well it only reads down to 0.01A or 100ma I have another USB meter coming that should measure to 0.001A or 1ma that cost me about $9.


----------



## BloodLust

That's much better info than I could give.
I don't have a USB meter. I also have one of those right angle fans with the pop-out micro USB.
Which USB meter are you getting Lynx_Arc?


Lynx_Arc said:


> I have a few of the right angle USB fans that have a micro USB slideout adapter in them that I believe draw about 500ma I'm guessing these fans draw about the same amount of current and power banks I estimate give you about 70% of the mah of the battery out as 5VDC due to step up conversion and losses so a 2600 power bank should power one for about 4 hours?
> I measured the current the other fan that takes an 18650 from the battery and got about 800/600/400ma draw from it roughly I think it was more like 830/570/370. I also have a collection of various USB LED lights from 2 SMD LEDs to dimmable 6 SMD LEDs but my USB current meter cannot measure some of them well it only reads down to 0.01A or 100ma I have another USB meter coming that should measure to 0.001A or 1ma that cost me about $9.



----------

Since I'm streamlining my emergency gear to run off AAs, I looked into 1x AA flashlights that convert into a lantern. These are more for bugout bag and travel use rather than home use.
For home, I have th rechargeables with SLA batteries, D-cell lanterns and I particularly like using the Energizer Light Fusion ones from Target.

I picked up some lights from REI to test which one would go into my daughter's emergency bag. I'm leaning more towards the Nite Ize based on my mini review up ahead.

Nite Ize 3-in1 Mini
10 lumens low. 80 lumens high.
Good output for 1xAA. IPX4 water resistance. Under $12.
The lantern surface could have been a bit larger but it still puts out decent enough light. It could have done away with the Red LED flasher/marker since it's output is too weak to be of much use. Amber would have been better as it can be used as a nightlight as well. If they did away with the flasher, the light would be shorter and slightly lighter as well.
I would prefer the Green body since the black switches are barely seen against the blue or dark red body. I assume it was intended to be some sort of emergency light as well because of the red flasher, so I would prefer switches which are high contrast to the body.
Starting on low would have been better as well.






UCO Leschi
Large lantern surface. Nice colors. Orange tailcap switch. Under $15. IPX5 rating.
Has a bungee strap on the side which can be wrapped around a 1.5 inch diameter tube or branch.
112 lumens high, 34 lumens low. Strobe. A lower low would have been nice.
Such a promising lantern if not for it's WEIRD memory mode!
I don't mind a memory mode but this is the only light I've come across that stars in the NEXT mode that it remembers. So if you use it on high, it will always come on in strobe. Very disorienting. If this is addressed, I would prefer this over the Nite Ize.






I'm still contemplating if I should return the UCO Leschi for another Nite Ize Mini, but I really do like the large lantern surface and color of the body and tail switch.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

BloodLust said:


> That's much better info than I could give.
> I don't have a USB meter. I also have one of those right angle fans with the pop-out micro USB.
> Which USB meter are you getting Lynx_Arc?


 I currently have a KCX-017 meter that cost me about $4 off ebay. But it had trouble reading the current of the USB mini fan I have apparently the design pulses in a way the makes the display cut out not sure why. I looked around to try and find a meter with better resolution or rather lower current measuring ability and found this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-bit-OLED-USB-Charger-Doctor-Capacity-power-Current-Voltage-Detector-Tester-/181716860976?var=&hash=item2a4f2b4030:m:ma81eQEiGjY7t4CQF5sHUSw 
I ordered it about 10 days ago and lately mail from China has been pretty quick I'm thinking I may get it this week. I have several LED usb lights that the other one cannot measure as they fall below 100ma current like the dimmable soshine modules and a dimmable 10 LED bar light. 


> ----------
> 
> Since I'm streamlining my emergency gear to run off AAs, I looked into 1x AA flashlights that convert into a lantern. These are more for bugout bag and travel use rather than home use.
> For home, I have th rechargeables with SLA batteries, D-cell lanterns and I particularly like using the Energizer Light Fusion ones from Target.
> 
> I picked up some lights from REI to test which one would go into my daughter's emergency bag. I'm leaning more towards the Nite Ize based on my mini review up ahead.
> 
> Nite Ize 3-in1 Mini
> 10 lumens low. 80 lumens high.
> Good output for 1xAA. IPX4 water resistance. Under $12.
> The lantern surface could have been a bit larger but it still puts out decent enough light. It could have done away with the Red LED flasher/marker since it's output is too weak to be of much use. Amber would have been better as it can be used as a nightlight as well. If they did away with the flasher, the light would be shorter and slightly lighter as well.
> I would prefer the Green body since the black switches are barely seen against the blue or dark red body. I assume it was intended to be some sort of emergency light as well because of the red flasher, so I would prefer switches which are high contrast to the body.
> Starting on low would have been better as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UCO Leschi
> Large lantern surface. Nice colors. Orange tailcap switch. Under $15. IPX5 rating.
> Has a bungee strap on the side which can be wrapped around a 1.5 inch diameter tube or branch.
> 112 lumens high, 34 lumens low. Strobe. A lower low would have been nice.
> Such a promising lantern if not for it's WEIRD memory mode!
> I don't mind a memory mode but this is the only light I've come across that stars in the NEXT mode that it remembers. So if you use it on high, it will always come on in strobe. Very disorienting. If this is addressed, I would prefer this over the Nite Ize.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still contemplating if I should return the UCO Leschi for another Nite Ize Mini, but I really do like the large lantern surface and color of the body and tail switch.



I've actually gone the opposite way from using AAs to 18650s and power banks as I came across a bunch of used battery packs from laptops and tool batteries and been buying power banks from ebay that you just stick the cells in and use them. I find these colored metal round ones and a dimmable soshine LED module a perfect mini lantern for about $1.25 or so for the module and usually under $1.50 for the power bank and supply any 18650 and you have a mini lantern. I've found even using 1300mah 18650s when you put the dimmable LEDs on the lowest setting they run for weeks if used 8 hours a night. One thing I've done is bought USB extension cables (Male to Female) and also USB power switches and wired them up hanging cables from the ceiling or clipping them under a table or whatever and using an USB light and you have a lantern. You can buy various USB LED "bulbs" and stuff to get light output from about 30-40 lumens to perhaps 500 lumens. A 400-500ma LED bulb puts out about 300 lumens or so not the most efficient but when you have a half dozen readily charged power banks of all sizes you can swap them out when one goes dim and don't have to open up lights/lanterns and swap cells in/out and put in chargers and take out of chargers these power banks you just plug in a micro USB power cable and wait for them to say they are charged fully.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Oh BTW the "next mode" memory problem has to do with the circuitry in the driver holding a charge on the mode memory too long. I read a post in a forum that told me how to fix the problem using a normal pencil. If you can get to the driver SMD components what you do is one by one you run the pencil across the SMD capacitors and try the light. If you rub too much the light may act up then you can just wipe off the graphite and start over. If you get enough the "lead" will act as a resistor across the cap to drain the charge on them. I took a 1AA zoom light I got from China that always went to the next mode when turned on and did the pencil trick and now after about 10 seconds "off" it goes to high mode from any mode (start).


----------



## BloodLust

Lynx_Arc said:


> Oh BTW the "next mode" memory problem has to do with the circuitry in the driver holding a charge on the mode memory too long. I read a post in a forum that told me how to fix the problem using a normal pencil. If you can get to the driver SMD components what you do is one by one you run the pencil across the SMD capacitors and try the light. If you rub too much the light may act up then you can just wipe off the graphite and start over. If you get enough the "lead" will act as a resistor across the cap to drain the charge on them. I took a 1AA zoom light I got from China that always went to the next mode when turned on and did the pencil trick and now after about 10 seconds "off" it goes to high mode from any mode (start).



Awesome! Thanks for the tip.

I do have 18650s and a Klarus XT11. Xtar VP2 and Xtar MC1 for my 18650s. Plus 2x 3000mAh! 1x 12000 mAh, 1 5000mAh (this is a flat lithium polymer power bank by Sony) power banks.
I just didn't want the rest of the family, especially my kid having to deal with lithium ions like 18650s.
I went the AA route because I have some Sanyo AA/AAA chargers, which are plug and charge. Goal Zero Nomad 7 solar panel, Guide 10 Plus power bank that runs off AA and is also used to charge AA via mini USB or solar.

Thise lights are more for leave in the bugout bag and forget. Bugout bag gear have lithium primaries in them to avoid leakage. An extra set of Eneloops plus a set of Alkalines as backup.
I also get the bulk AA batteries from Costco.
On the go, my Xtar XP1 which is a single bay li-ion/nimh charger via USB. I can use this to charge 1 battery if needed or if the sun is too weak to charge 4 AAs from the Guide 10 Plus.

For my personal lights, I have a mix of 18650s and AAs.
Why I went the AA route, it's really just more of a safety, convenience and familiarity issue for the rest of the family.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

BloodLust said:


> Awesome! Thanks for the tip.
> 
> I do have 18650s and a Klarus XT11. Xtar VP2 and Xtar MC1 for my 18650s. Plus 2x 3000mAh! 1x 12000 mAh, 1 5000mAh (this is a flat lithium polymer power bank by Sony) power banks.
> I just didn't want the rest of the family, especially my kid having to deal with lithium ions like 18650s.
> I went the AA route because I have some Sanyo AA/AAA chargers, which are plug and charge. Goal Zero Nomad 7 solar panel, Guide 10 Plus power bank that runs off AA and is also used to charge AA via mini USB or solar.
> 
> Thise lights are more for leave in the bugout bag and forget. Bugout bag gear have lithium primaries in them to avoid leakage. An extra set of Eneloops plus a set of Alkalines as backup.
> I also get the bulk AA batteries from Costco.
> On the go, my Xtar XP1 which is a single bay li-ion/nimh charger via USB. I can use this to charge 1 battery if needed or if the sun is too weak to charge 4 AAs from the Guide 10 Plus.
> 
> For my personal lights, I have a mix of 18650s and AAs.
> Why I went the AA route, it's really just more of a safety, convenience and familiarity issue for the rest of the family.



I see nothing wrong with that myself. I'm hoping to one day finish my incan prodigy lantern project I started. It will be a 4x1860 XML2 power bank lantern with mulitimodes perhaps even a low low mode that I can leave on all the time. I only need to figure out the heatsinking requirements and lumens/current output levels that I think will be the most useful for me.


----------



## ajl

I'm in Jacksonville, Florida where we just had a "rain event" tropical storm pass though just to the North of here. Didn't lose power, didn't see any down trees locally. Enjoyed the rain! Generally when trees fall, so goes the power. I did have multiple flashlights and two battery lanterns on standby. The light I most like is a 2AA modified Surefire G3 with a Malkoff M31LLL light engine. Gives enough light, about 15 lumens I believe, and the two batteries lasts a very long time. (If I needed a searchlight, I always had a Malkoff modified 3D Mag-Lite. But that is not something I would reach for first when the lights go out. Way overkill.) Come to think of it, my portable radio uses AA batteries also. 

I do hope Florida goes another year without a hurricane landfall. They are fun when you are small, but not so much when you are a homeowner.


----------



## bwDraco

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Nearly two years have passed since I last posted in this thread and while my illumination tools haven't changed much, I have more charging equipment, including an Anker solar charger (PowerPort Solar 21W), another Anker power bank (PowerCore 20100), and a Nitecore UM10 charger for my SRT7, so I'll never be in the dark. I've not had any major outages lately but I'm pretty sure I'm prepared for pretty much anything that could realistically happen around here.

_Draco_


----------



## pblanch

No problems with charging batteries now. 

Just hook up to the car battery directly.


----------



## braddy

I'm set up for that as well and I have a little trickle solar charger to keep the battery topped off when not in use.

Something that I would like is a small panel that can keep my battery fully charged when using it to charge a lot of batteries, even though I don't have gasoline to run the engine.

When I bring that up everyone always drifts off into marine batteries and solar systems etc. , designing a system, rather than focusing solely on the already existing car battery.

My vehicle is already there, in a weeks long emergency when I just want to charge my flashlight batteries, I would like to know what size panel I need to take out of the trunk and connect to my car battery, to keep up to my demands.


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

braddy said:


> I'm set up for that as well and I have a little trickle solar charger to keep the battery topped off when not in use.
> 
> Something that I would like is a small panel that can keep my battery fully charged when using it to charge a lot of batteries, even though I don't have gasoline to run the engine.
> 
> When I bring that up everyone always drifts off into marine batteries and solar systems etc. , designing a system, rather than focusing solely on the already existing car battery.
> 
> My vehicle is already there, in a weeks long emergency when I just want to charge my flashlight batteries, I would like to know what size panel I need to take out of the trunk and connect to my car battery, to keep up to my demands.



Not being very technically minded, I think you'll find the folks at Aspect Solar to be helpful to answer your inquiry, if you care to look them up. Good luck to you with that, Braddy.


----------



## Poppy

braddy said:


> I'm set up for that as well and I have a little trickle solar charger to keep the battery topped off when not in use.
> 
> Something that I would like is a small panel that can keep my battery fully charged when using it to charge a lot of batteries, even though I don't have gasoline to run the engine.
> 
> When I bring that up everyone always drifts off into marine batteries and solar systems etc. , designing a system, rather than focusing solely on the already existing car battery.
> 
> My vehicle is already there, in a weeks long emergency when I just want to charge my flashlight batteries, I would like to know what size panel I need to take out of the trunk and connect to my car battery, to keep up to my demands.


braddy,
I would also like to know the answer to this question, but in order for anyone with the knowledge to do so, would need to know, what your needs will be? In other words, how many watts of energy will you use daily, so that they will know how many you will need to replace?

I imagine, that I would temper my demands, depending upon my ability to replace them. 

Regarding using the car's battery instead of getting a deep cell marine battery, I fully agree. At least for me, the likelihood of actually having a week long outage is pretty slim. I would probably have to replace the marine battery every seven years, without it being used even once.


----------



## braddy

i was thinking of a situation of a long term 6 months long blackout when I won't be using the car and don't want to run the engine, but will want to use my flashlights, lanterns, and transistor radios, freely and on high settings at night, so I might want to charge a few AA, AAA, D cell, 18650, 26650, batteries frequently, so I might want to run a battery charger as much as 12/14 hours a day.

For instance, perhaps charging 2 18650s and 4AA batteries per day, or 4 D and 4AA batteries (as a typical day), all with no fear of ruining or draining your battery, perhaps with a caveat that you take a break every 3rd or 5th day to make sure that your car battery is topping off.


----------



## LeanBurn

A 25W solar panel could charge the batteries during the day for use at night, using the pieces of equipment on thread #1076


----------



## kilogulf59

LeanBurn said:


> A 25W solar panel could charge the batteries during the day for use at night, using the pieces of equipment on thread #1076



OK, for us non-tech folks, what is the equipment shown below??? And just type "25W Solar Panel" into Amazon??? Does everything just plug in???



pblanch said:


> No problems with charging batteries now.
> 
> Just hook up to the car battery directly.











OK...for us


----------



## bluemax_1

braddy said:


> i was thinking of a situation of a long term 6 months long blackout when I won't be using the car and don't want to run the engine, but will want to use my flashlights, lanterns, and transistor radios, freely and on high settings at night, so I might want to charge a few AA, AAA, D cell, 18650, 26650, batteries frequently, so I might want to run a battery charger as much as 12/14 hours a day.
> 
> For instance, perhaps charging 2 18650s and 4AA batteries per day, or 4 D and 4AA batteries (as a typical day), all with no fear of ruining or draining your battery, perhaps with a caveat that you take a break every 3rd or 5th day to make sure that your car battery is topping off.



GoalZero has the equipment specifically for this. The Guardian 12v Plus chargd controller can be hooked up to any of their solar panels and panels can be daisy-chained.

How much panel you need will be determined by how much you'll be draining/charging the battery vs how much sunlight you'll be getting (i.e. AZ sun in the summer vs cloud covered WA in winter etc.)

I've got the Guardian and the ability to daisy-chain 2 x 27watt panels (all bought at significant discounts on sale). GZ can be pricey.

As far as 12v batts go, you can use a deep-cycle batt (doesn't necessarily have to be marine). Folks used to use Optima Yellows for carshows on cars with lots of audio. I used to have one and it had lots of deep discharge cycles on it before needing replacement.


Max


----------



## bluemax_1

kilogulf59 said:


> OK, for us non-tech folks, what is the equipment shown below??? And just type "25W Solar Panel" into Amazon??? Does everything just plug in???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK...for us



That's a Nitecore charger (charges LiIon, LiFePO4, NiMH & NiCad) + the 12v CLA cigarette lighter adapter + an alligator clip to cigarette lighter socket adapter.

If you have a car with a cigarette lighter, you can just plug the Nitecore with 12v adapter into it to charge the flashlight batteries. The alligator clip to CLA socket is so you can hook it up to any bare 12v battery.


Max


----------



## LeanBurn

Quick and dirty: Take the two leads red(+) and black(-) connect the clamps to the corresponding leads plug in to the socket, plug in the 12V cig adapter to the charger put in the batteries. All of the solar energy goes to the battery charger to charge the batteries. Very easy. You can even get multiple 12V sockets to work 2 chargers if you wish.

You upgrade to a 40W panel, you could run a 4 bay battery charger off one 12V socket and then off the other run a 4 port USB 12V plug in you would run on a car and you could charge 4 different USB chargeable flashlights or lanterns easily.


----------



## kilogulf59

:thanks: fellas...now I believe I have it!


----------



## Poppy

I recently spent two weeks in Florida's heat and humidity. 96F with a 106F heat index (in the shade).
The first week was mainly indoors in AC, or the hotel pool. The second week, in and out of AC in Disney.

When not in AC, the heat was brutal. One member of our party was a walking impaired but otherwise healthy 90 y/o in an electric scooter. Keeping him cool and comfortable was my main concern. lol... me too! 

I picked up a O2 USB / 4AA fan for $10.88
http://www.homedepot.com/p/O2Cool-5...r-USB-Operated-Fan-in-Black-FD05003/206685909
And one of those sprayer bottles with a 2AA fan attached.

Also three polyester hand towels at the dollar store.

The O2 fan got tossed into and out of the basket attached to the scooter, and a number of times I found that the switch had gotten jostled so that it was ON when not in use. So I can't give an accurate run-time. But I think it will chew through alkalines somewhat quickly. When outdoors, it didn't give much of a breeze, much of a cooling effect unless it was held inches from the face. I wanted to run it the following day on a USB power bank, and couldn't find the power cord. It doesn't take a micro usb input. I plan to modify it so that it does.

The polyester towels worked pretty well. Being made of polyester, they tended to be hydrophobic, thus promoting drying/evaporation. The evaporation of the water lends to the cooling effect. Wiping my face arms and legs off with the relatively cool towel, and having the water evaporate off of my extremities helped A LOT! When I draped a towel around my neck, and used it to frequently wipe my face, and ears, that also helped a lot. Since I wrung the towel out, it didn't carry a lot of water, and it didn't make the collar of my shirt very wet which made that more comfortable than it would have been if I used a wet cotton towel, BUT because the poly towel didn't carry a lot of water, it dried somewhat quickly, therefore it would be important to have a ready source of water to rehydrate it through out the day.

With the sun and heat beating on the macadam pavement, it felt a little soft to walk on. The pavement radiated the heat back up from the ground up, and with the sun beating down, I imagine that the heat index (while in the sun) must have been more like 120F. I found that using an umbrella was much better than a hat. That combined with a cooling towel kept me much more comfortable than those who used nothing. I could see many people who looked like the walking dead, dragging themselves along, perspiration freely flowing. I wore a hat for the first few days, and the perspiration of my brow, and head just didn't feel very cooling. With the umbrella, it was allowed to evaporate more readily.


----------



## camelight

Well my best light for this is my streamlight siege lantern it runs on 3 d cells and has a great runtime on low mod it can run 12 days!!! But i would buy another set of betteris so i would be able to use it in higher modes when nided 
I would use my klarus g30 on low mod it can run 9-10 days! On midiom 18 hours i have 2 sets of betterys for it
So it could be useful for long time as well without charging the betteris
I have 4 3 aa lanterns they are cheapos but very nice and simple
I would at list buy 24 aa betteris 2 sets for each lantetn
I would buy 6 aaa for 2 sets of my headlight
I think it wolud be enough i don't think that those aa lanterns would get use all the time


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## Grijon

Informative post, Poppy, thank you


----------



## RickZ

2 more power outages in my neighborhood since my last post. Both times my rayovac $1 lights were fun to loan out to people (%75 return rate each time) and my coast hp550 held up great too good to take a shower in high mode and cook (gas) with as well-things I need 1000 lumens for. In both emergencies the high mode ran for over 2 hours on a used charge.


----------



## Poppy

I'm going a little off topic here regarding power requirements during an outage, but there are things that you can do to reduce your power requirements. What are they?

I think it was in Cody Lundin's book, (the guy who walked barefoot in dual survivor), "When All Hell Breaks Loose" that the author spoke of methods to stay warm in the winter or cooler in the summer, in your house. Layers of newspapers are good insulators, I suppose just as a pile of leaves. One of the biggest things I took out of his book is that the reflective properties of mylar can greatly reduce heat gain, or heat loss from a room.

Ideally the evaporator coil in a central air conditioning system will be located in the attic. Of course, in my house it is in the basement. My bedroom is the farthest from it, and it suffers as the warmest room in the house. It has two windows that face SW. One gets diffused light due to a tree in the way, but the other gets direct sunlight. When we were running 95+ temps, I decided to try what Cody suggested. I taped a HeatSheets emergency blanket to the window that gets direct sunlight, and what was left of it to the wall. Despite the fact that I have storm windows, and insulated glass windows, It really made a significant reduction of the amount of heat in my room. 

So in short, in dire emergencies, consider taping those emergency blankets that you keep in your BOB, or your car, over windows, (to prevent heat loss during the night), or heat gain during the day, depending upon your circumstances. OR if you have created a "safe room" you might want to put the reflective properties of them in the right direction.


----------



## BloodLust

It worked for me when I taped those cheap reflective blankets to my tent. Temps dropped when we were camping and the blanket made it comfortable enough since it trapped most of the cold in between the tent wall and the blanket.
Didn't have a problem with condensation despite it raining and highly humid.


----------



## besafe2

RickZ said:


> 2 more power outages in my neighborhood since my last post. Both times my rayovac $1 lights were fun to loan out to people (%75 return rate each time) and my coast hp550 held up great too good to take a shower in high mode and cook (gas) with as well-things I need 1000 lumens for. In both emergencies the high mode ran for over 2 hours on a used charge.


Maybe I'm crazy, we've had a couple power outages & I used the cheap lights. Worked fine for me.


----------



## besafe2

RickZ said:


> 2 more power outages in my neighborhood since my last post. Both times my rayovac $1 lights were fun to loan out to people (%75 return rate each time) and my coast hp550 held up great too good to take a shower in high mode and cook (gas) with as well-things I need 1000 lumens for. In both emergencies the high mode ran for over 2 hours on a used charge.


Maybe I'm crazy, we've had a couple power outages & I used the cheap lights. Worked fine for me.


----------



## StarHalo

besafe2 said:


> Maybe I'm crazy, we've had a couple power outages & I used the cheap lights. Worked fine for me.



There are no "cool lights" once the lights go out, just the ones that are there/work and the ones that don't. 

I see Rayovac updated their box-store standard 1D x 2 pack lights with some sort of power LED, I wonder how those compare to the original..


----------



## Lynx_Arc

StarHalo said:


> There are no "cool lights" once the lights go out, just the ones that are there/work and the ones that don't.
> 
> I see Rayovac updated their box-store standard 1D x 2 pack lights with some sort of power LED, I wonder how those compare to the original..


Energizer has put SMD type LEDs in their cheap plastic lights now instead of 5mm LEDs which IMO are mostly junk in tint and output (beam) and longevity. I'm not sure of the longevity of SMD LEDs as there are a dozen or more different types of them from built in heatsinking or not.... more efficient or not... higher output or not I see arrays of these SMD LEDs or COB LEDs in lights (sort of jammed together SMDs) now and they work surprisingly well.


----------



## Poppy

besafe2 said:


> Maybe I'm crazy, we've had a couple power outages & I used the cheap lights. Worked fine for me.


It's been said before... batteries are more important than lights. In other words once you run out of batteries, lights of any sort don't work and are useless.

Some people prefer to have only a few lumens, and prefer to have their eyes dark adjusted, and others prefer lots o lumens.
Not everyone has a preference in tints, but those who do, typically prefer neutral tints. Cheap lights, more often than not, have cool white, and even blue white tints, but they still throw light.

So how long did the outage last, how many lumens do your lights put out, and how many batteries did you go through?

Regarding being crazy? Maybe you are, maybe not, you might ask the people around you.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Poppy said:


> It's been said before... batteries are more important than lights. In other words once you run out of batteries, lights of any sort don't work and are useless.
> 
> Some people prefer to have only a few lumens, and prefer to have their eyes dark adjusted, and others prefer lots o lumens.
> Not everyone has a preference in tints, but those who do, typically prefer neutral tints. Cheap lights, more often than not, have cool white, and even blue white tints, but they still throw light.
> 
> So how long did the outage last, how many lumens do your lights put out, and how many batteries did you go through?
> 
> Regarding being crazy? Maybe you are, maybe not, you might ask the people around you.



I agree if you do get a decent assortment of lights you will easily cover most outages. I think that the main thing is people have gotten used to having low modes on lights now last power outage I didn't have a powerful LED area light but then LEDs were nowhere near as efficient as they are now in 2007 you may have gotten 60 lumens/watt now 100-120 is I think the average and lights have more efficient drivers too with low modes that didn't exist plus batteries are cheaper and better. 

I think also unless you need to brightly light up the world during an outage it doesn't take a lot of lumens per person to operate daily. Even using CCFL technology I charged about 4 sets of nimh AAs over 4 days and didn't use up any alkalines at all and had plenty of light to do everything because I had an assortment of dim LEDs to do some things and the CCFL to play cards by and 5mm LED headlamp to read by and navigate the house. 
A single person now could almost last a week on a handful of batteries without a charger vs having a shoebox full of them in the past.


----------



## BloodLust

Just found a light for my kid's bugout bag. It's the Energizer one. Simple. Just 2 modes (torch and lantern). 2xAA in which I use Energizer lithium primaries so they don't leak. I just keep a set of alkalines as backup.. Not too expensive at $8.99 in Target.
It seems that it pulls 3V because it's dimmer with 1.2V rechargeables but still usable.







Although so far, my most used light/lantern at home is the Energizer Fusion 2-in-1. I use it with Eneloops. 4xAA gives decent power with decent runtime. I really dislike odd numbered batteries so I don't get lights and headlamps that use 3xAA or 3xAAA anymore.


----------



## Repsol600rr

My longest time without power was 8 days during hurricane Irene while visiting family. It was an anomaly for the area as pretty much everyone but the street we were on got power in around 3 days or less. We were postulating a microburst hit the street as well over 20 trees had fallen (13 on my uncles and his mothers properties combined). Luckily they only hit powers lines and punched a relatively small hole in the detached garage roof but didn't do any major damage to houses cars or people. This was before I became a flasholic. So my uncle had a few d cell lights a couple aa lights all Incan. My uncle had hurricane lamps which provided the majority of area lighting. The flashlights really didn't get used a lot Becuase had had at least 6 hurricane lamps. Phones were charged from car batteries in the truck as we hauled away bits of tree as gas was available nearby which also was needed for the chainsaw. We spent 7 of the 8 days pretty much waking up whenever we did usually around 8-9 and working all day with that small chainsaw to cut apart the trees and remove them. We had to cook all our meals we didn't buy on the grill. Then we would go to bed not that long after dark because we were exhausted. It was august so the days were still fairly long. To cool the house we just opened all the windows on opposite sides and let the lake breeze roll through. I actually didn't mind the whole experience. But it would be done a lot differently now. I have some solar capability on the roof with some batteries and inverters to charge whatever I want. I have tested this and have no problem charging enough batteries for this purpose. If I dedicated them all to lighting would be a lot (30+ plus aa's 8 aaa 5 18650 2 16650 4 16340) as well as computers and phones and whatever. So I could easily run a light in every room at over say 25+ lumens for the duration. But I'm fairly comfortable in the dark. So I'd probly just be walking around with my edc zebras and maybe a headlamp and I could tail stand light any room at whatever brightness I wanted. Should I need more (to take care of the hypothetical family) I have over 100 Alkie aa and aaa as well as over 30 123s and dozens of c and d cells. I don't have a good lantern yet but will most likely buy one of the seiges. Baisically I have it set up were not a lot would change lighting wise. I'm not at the point where I can run a fridge or my ac(and this thread has reminded me I forgot about my sump pump battery backup plan) but I will still be able to cook some food and make some tea and relax for a while.


----------



## StarHalo

It's here: RAVPower 27,000mAh battery pack with *100 watt AC outlet*; plug in your laptop and carry on, $120.


----------



## Going_Supernova

StarHalo said:


> It's here: RAVPower 27,000mAh battery pack with *100 watt AC outlet*; plug in your laptop and carry on, $120.



Is there a DC outlet? Using a DC to AC inverter wastes power if you are just going to convert it back to DC.


----------



## StarHalo

Going_Supernova said:


> Is there a DC outlet? Using a DC to AC inverter wastes power if you are just going to convert it back to DC.



Two 2.4 amp USB ports and a USB-C port.


----------



## BloodLust

StarHalo said:


> It's here: RAVPower 27,000mAh battery pack with *100 watt AC outlet*; plug in your laptop and carry on, $120.



Oooh! That is nice! I'm currently considering a larger capacity power bank for home standby.


----------



## terjee

You guys might find some of these products interesting as well:
http://www.aspectsolar.com/products/portable-power.html

No experience with them (yet!), but they've gotten a couple of recommendations from various sources. They come up a couple of times if you search the forum for them.


----------



## MidnightDistortions

Poppy said:


> It's been said before... batteries are more important than lights. In other words once you run out of batteries, lights of any sort don't work and are useless.
> 
> Some people prefer to have only a few lumens, and prefer to have their eyes dark adjusted, and others prefer lots o lumens.
> Not everyone has a preference in tints, but those who do, typically prefer neutral tints. Cheap lights, more often than not, have cool white, and even blue white tints, but they still throw light.
> 
> So how long did the outage last, how many lumens do your lights put out, and how many batteries did you go through?
> 
> Regarding being crazy? Maybe you are, maybe not, you might ask the people around you.





Lynx_Arc said:


> I agree if you do get a decent assortment of lights you will easily cover most outages. I think that the main thing is people have gotten used to having low modes on lights now last power outage I didn't have a powerful LED area light but then LEDs were nowhere near as efficient as they are now in 2007 you may have gotten 60 lumens/watt now 100-120 is I think the average and lights have more efficient drivers too with low modes that didn't exist plus batteries are cheaper and better.
> 
> I think also unless you need to brightly light up the world during an outage it doesn't take a lot of lumens per person to operate daily. Even using CCFL technology I charged about 4 sets of nimh AAs over 4 days and didn't use up any alkalines at all and had plenty of light to do everything because I had an assortment of dim LEDs to do some things and the CCFL to play cards by and 5mm LED headlamp to read by and navigate the house.
> A single person now could almost last a week on a handful of batteries without a charger vs having a shoebox full of them in the past.



I prefer flashlights with variable outputs so you can use the high for when you need to brighten a room up and still have enough power to use the low modes when the batteries are nearly depleted. In essence i'd like to have 4 lights with the batteries already in them plus extras for all the lights. Also i don't think its completely necessary to use the bright settings unless it's an emergency or something where you need to see more of the area. In the case of a tornado, the aftermath at night you need more light in order to navigate better in the debris.


----------



## Loomun

I have a 500 Lum LED Lantern in the main room of the house and one on each end of the house and a flashlight in every room of the house of different Lumens and so many spare batteries to count that it would take a long time to run out.

To put a number on what would be needed is really a preference of how long one may think they are going to be without power, it`s better to have too many than not enough.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

MidnightDistortions said:


> I prefer flashlights with variable outputs so you can use the high for when you need to brighten a room up and still have enough power to use the low modes when the batteries are nearly depleted. In essence i'd like to have 4 lights with the batteries already in them plus extras for all the lights. Also i don't think its completely necessary to use the bright settings unless it's an emergency or something where you need to see more of the area. In the case of a tornado, the aftermath at night you need more light in order to navigate better in the debris.


While I think it is good to have multiple levels on lights, it isn't needed on every light you have sometimes 2-3 levels is more than adequate and sometimes even 1 mode is fine as long as you have other lights with differing outputs easily available. I like the idea of both modes and variable output both as having modes you can estimate runtime while the variable output you can adjust output up and down from those "knowable" modes to save a little more power (hopefully). 
I think when it comes to outages most folks here in the forum can cover lower level light outputs using low to medium modes on lights and lanterns. While it is a lot more efficient to have uber low modes on lights (1 lumen or less) 10-25 lumen lights sip batteries slow enough that one can easily manage even an extended power outage using them. I think the issue had grown more to focus on high output lighting and lanterns plus other non lighting devices. 

To put it simply we could go the extra mile to save a few mah of power by getting a light with lower modes and blow them away in a heartbeat operating a smartphone or tablet during an outage for an hour.


----------



## Treeguy

Just came off about nine-hours of a power failure. It snowed last night and that was enough to send a tree somewhere into the lines and _"Poof"_. :candle:


The most usable lumens were moonlight and something in the 15 range from my AA lights. Had to find my way around the house, make breakfast on the Coleman gas burner, and clean off the wife's car. Moon and 15 were perfect. That said, I'm ordering more Eneloops today and maybe another AA Thrunite as a backup to my backup. 

As Henry Thoreau said: _"Simplify! Simplify!" _


----------



## Grijon

Right on, Treeguy; I've been using 15- and <15-lumen modes almost exclusively all October and haven't had any needs for more.

24 Eneloops will last a long, long time in an outage, if used wisely.


----------



## Treeguy

Grijon said:


> Right on, Treeguy; I've been using 15- and <15-lumen modes almost exclusively all October and haven't had any needs for more.
> 
> 24 Eneloops will last a long, long time in an outage, if used wisely.



You have 24 Eneloops? I'm jealous. I have 8 and I think I'll get 8 more. I have four white for the "normal" lights and four Pro in the TN4A HI.

I think I could just own AA Thrunites and I'd be happy. And as far as power failures go, it's a winning formula. Simple, efficient, and inexpensive. Works for me.


----------



## StarHalo

Treeguy said:


> Simple, efficient, and inexpensive. Works for me.



Don't forget the battery-powered radio..


----------



## dmattaponi

Currently 

AA flashlights (#5 Thrunite TN4A, #3 Thrunite Archer 1Av2-3, #2 Thrunite T10). These range from .02 lumens up to 1150 lumens. 

#5 power banks of various capacity for cell phones
#32 rechargeable Eneloop AA batteries
#16 rechargeable Eneloop Pro AA batteries.

#12+ kerosene lamps.
#2 solar AA battery chargers (charge 4AA each)
#1 10w Anker solar panel charger


----------



## Treeguy

StarHalo said:


> Don't forget the battery-powered radio..



You are exactly incredibly correct. Going to get a nice little AA Sony.


----------



## Treeguy

dmattaponi said:


> Currently
> 
> AA flashlights (#5 Thrunite TN4A, #3 Thrunite Archer 1Av2-3, #2 Thrunite T10). These range from .02 lumens up to 1150 lumens.
> 
> #5 power banks of various capacity for cell phones
> #32 rechargeable Eneloop AA batteries
> #16 rechargeable Eneloop Pro AA batteries.
> 
> #12+ kerosene lamps.
> #2 solar AA battery chargers (charge 4AA each)
> #1 10w Anker solar panel charger



We're all coming to your house when the power goes out. :wave:


----------



## dmattaponi

Treeguy said:


> We're all coming to your house when the power goes out. :wave:


----------



## Lexel

If they come to my house I got still a chainsaw to scare them away


----------



## Treeguy

Lexel said:


> If they come to my house I got still a chainsaw to scare them away



What model?


----------



## braddy

Lexel said:


> If they come to my house I got still a chainsaw to scare them away





Chainsaw flashlight (gas engine powered spotlight) 
http://www.instructables.com/id/Cha...light/step3/Design-and-configure-the-machine/


----------



## Treeguy

Well, the wind blew, the trees fell, and the power is off. I'm at the coffee shop right now, they have a generator and wifi.

My generator? I broke the pull handle cord. :mecry:I'll have to get another tomorrow. At least it's not cold out and the power will be on in a few hours.

Lumens? So far, again, the 20 range is my best friend. Glad to have my TN4A, the 17 lumen low will last for days and days. Also have my Archer A2V2 with me. I'm such a nerd. But it's fun walking around my small town and the whole place is pitch black.


----------



## StarHalo

Treeguy said:


> Well, the wind blew, the trees fell, and the power is off.



There a weather event going on up there?


----------



## Treeguy

StarHalo said:


> There a weather event going on up there?



Just a windy day. A tree must have taken down the high tension somewhere and it took out about half the town. But the power is back now.

I'm buying a small AA radio tomorrow. I noticed right away that having the radio only through the wifi is *not* a good thing.


----------



## StarHalo

Treeguy said:


> I'm buying a small AA radio tomorrow. I noticed right away that having the radio only through the wifi is *not* a good thing.



CCrane Solar Observer :thumbsup: (or if that's too rich for your blood, join us over in the Small Portable Radios thread..)


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

We reside in Parkland and are served by Parkland Light and Water. It was established in 1914, making it the nation's oldest mutual utility company. We're [FONT=Verdana, Tahoma]definitely not an upper class town, but all our utility lines are underground.[/FONT] 17 years ago I purchased a Honda generator, and had a friend install a transfer switch. Since then I've had occasion to use them twice. :sigh: Lumens, I got. Power outage, not so much. 

~ Chance


----------



## LetThereBeLight!

I just started a thread on what I think is the most creative flashlight of this year, and maybe of any I've ever seen.

I think it will be a good power outage light, especially for the elderly. It's Nebotools' "Flip It" light which is simply a light made from a light switch! Now if this light does not have a calming effect, I don't know if any other could!

It's 215 lumens and powered by 3 AAA batteries. At $15. I think it's priced reasonably and they come two to a package. As I mentioned in the other thread this is the light I will be gifting at Christmas. (Last year it was the Tube.)

This light cracks me up because who would have ever imagined a light-switch light? Can't wait to get the ones I ordered, lol.

- LetThereBeLight!


----------



## StarHalo

The Anker PowerHouse is on sale today; 400Wh/120,000mAh, *Li-Ion cells*, *9 lbs*, 160W max so laptops/flatscreen TVs/mini-fridges are all possible, could be quite the game changer at the campsite..


----------



## Lynx_Arc

StarHalo said:


> The Anker PowerHouse is on sale today; 400Wh/120,000mAh, *Li-Ion cells*, *9 lbs*, 160W max so laptops/flatscreen TVs/mini-fridges are all possible, could be quite the game changer at the campsite..


As long as you don't need 2 of them to last an outing for that price of two you are getting into the honda generator price range
This generator looks like it could well compete with the Anker
https://www.amazon.com/WEN-56200i-Starting-Generator-Compliant/dp/B00SMNLF4M/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1480963721&sr=8-16&keywords=yamaha+generator


----------



## eh4

Lynx_Arc said:


> As long as you don't need 2 of them to last an outing for that price of two you are getting into the honda generator price range
> This generator looks like it could well compete with the Anker
> https://www.amazon.com/WEN-56200i-Starting-Generator-Compliant/dp/B00SMNLF4M/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1480963721&sr=8-16&keywords=yamaha+generator



I've always wanted one of these... 


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005ND19AE/?tag=cpf0b6-20


----------



## Lynx_Arc

eh4 said:


> I've always wanted one of these...
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005ND19AE/?tag=cpf0b6-20


I used to want one of them but they aren't cost effective for my uses and to be honest neither is the Anker or the Yamaha clone generators as I have the bases covered for everything but heating, AC, and frozen food storage which requires a larger generator solution and leans towards the cart based generators even though they are less efficient for lower power use you can buy a lot of gas for the extra ~$1400 cost in a pair of Honda/Yamaha generators plus harness. I would have to have be needing a generator almost a week a year from now on or a portable generator often enough that renting one wouldn't be more cost effective vs owning one.


----------



## mckeand13

Lynx_Arc said:


> I used to want one of them but they aren't cost effective for my uses and to be honest neither is the Anker or the Yamaha clone generators as I have the bases covered for everything but heating, AC, and frozen food storage which requires a larger generator solution and leans towards the cart based generators even though they are less efficient for lower power use you can buy a lot of gas for the extra ~$1400 cost in a pair of Honda/Yamaha generators plus harness. I would have to have be needing a generator almost a week a year from now on or a portable generator often enough that renting one wouldn't be more cost effective vs owning one.



The trouble with the renting method is that there are only so many rental generators available. When many people are without power in an area, they go quickly. Been there done that......

Now I have a little Honda EU2000 to use with the fridge during short term outages and a larger 7500W 240V to run the house longer term.

I understand that it's not a small investment but I got sick of the scramble every time the lights flickered.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

mckeand13 said:


> The trouble with the renting method is that there are only so many rental generators available. When many people are without power in an area, they go quickly. Been there done that......
> 
> Now I have a little Honda EU2000 to use with the fridge during short term outages and a larger 7500W 240V to run the house longer term.
> 
> I understand that it's not a small investment but I got sick of the scramble every time the lights flickered.


I used to have a UPS on my tv/dvr/vcr and alarm clock as we had power go out a half dozen times a year till they cut the trees way back. I think if I were to get a stationary generator I would probably get one set up to run off natural gas as I think it would make it a lot easier to take care of no gas sitting around going stale and a lot lower cost plus unlimited runtime before refueling.


----------



## Going_Supernova

Lynx_Arc said:


> I used to have a UPS on my tv/dvr/vcr and alarm clock as we had power go out a half dozen times a year till they cut the trees way back. I think if I were to get a stationary generator I would probably get one set up to run off natural gas as I think it would make it a lot easier to take care of no gas sitting around going stale and a lot lower cost plus unlimited runtime before refueling.




Depending on the manner of the emergency, natural gas may be turned off. After a nearby tornado hit a bunch of houses, the local authorities forced the gas company tech on-scene to shut off all the gas in an entire neighborhood--you don't want to be doing USAR with the risk of fire and explosion. 

This was a long-track tornado that went diagonally completely through the small rural town, and destroyed the high school, elementary school, middle school, school district office, two churches, a funeral home, a convenience store, and lots of houses. The gas company tech did not want to turn off the gas, because they ( gas co. techs) would have to go back later house-to-house turning the gas on and lighting furnaces and stoves. Only after the LEO on-scene threatened to have him arrested did he give in and turn off the large pipes. So, if the water doesn't wash out the pipes, or an earthquake break the pipes, or whatever other catastrophe interrupt the gas, you could simply just have it shut off. IMO, best SHTF generator fuel would be either LP or diesel--most likely diesel for its availability and storage safety.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Going_Supernova said:


> Depending on the manner of the emergency, natural gas may be turned off. After a nearby tornado hit a bunch of houses, the local authorities forced the gas company tech on-scene to shut off all the gas in an entire neighborhood--you don't want to be doing USAR with the risk of fire and explosion.
> 
> This was a long-track tornado that went diagonally completely through the small rural town, and destroyed the high school, elementary school, middle school, school district office, two churches, a funeral home, a convenience store, and lots of houses. The gas company tech did not want to turn off the gas, because they ( gas co. techs) would have to go back later house-to-house turning the gas on and lighting furnaces and stoves. Only after the LEO on-scene threatened to have him arrested did he give in and turn off the large pipes. So, if the water doesn't wash out the pipes, or an earthquake break the pipes, or whatever other catastrophe interrupt the gas, you could simply just have it shut off. IMO, best SHTF generator fuel would be either LP or diesel--most likely diesel for its availability and storage safety.


While it is possible for this to happen if it is winter and the gas gets turned off it people without woodburning fireplaces would freeze. I've never seen the gas go nor the phones in power outages here and I do keep some gas on hand for the lawnmower that would suffice for a day or two if that were to happen. BTW I live in the heart of the city here if we lost gas half the city would freeze in the winter they would have it back on very fast I figure even if they had to temporarily put the pipes above ground for awhile.


----------



## Poppy

I have a 10 hp 5,500 watt generator.
I considered modifying it to run on natural gas, but was surprised at how large a diameter the feed pipe needed to be, to power it. 

A friend in the after math of Super storm Sandy lost power for a month. She ran her whole house generator on natural gas and was a bit shocked at the $2,000 gas bill she got that month.

I did a little calculation, and found that a 20K gennie running at 1/4 load (5K watts) takes about 157 CU ft of gas/hour.
Running at 1/2 load (10,000 watts) takes about 188 Cu ft of gas/hour.
http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Natural_Gas_Fuel_Consumption.aspx

Using $14 per 1000 cu ft, 5-10K watts would cost about $2.10-$2.80 and hour. Times 24 hours, $50-$67 a day.
As you can see, it can add up quickly.

With an unlimited supply, one may be tempted to just let that baby run.

With the hassle of obtaining gasoline, one might be more considerate of generator run-times.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Poppy said:


> I have a 10 hp 5,500 watt generator.
> I considered modifying it to run on natural gas, but was surprised at how large a diameter the feed pipe needed to be, to power it.
> 
> A friend in the after math of Super storm Sandy lost power for a month. She ran her whole house generator on natural gas and was a bit shocked at the $2,000 gas bill she got that month.
> 
> I did a little calculation, and found that a 20K gennie running at 1/4 load (5K watts) takes about 157 CU ft of gas/hour.
> Running at 1/2 load (10,000 watts) takes about 188 Cu ft of gas/hour.
> http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Natural_Gas_Fuel_Consumption.aspx
> 
> Using $14 per 1000 cu ft, 5-10K watts would cost about $2.10-$2.80 and hour. Times 24 hours, $50-$67 a day.
> As you can see, it can add up quickly.
> 
> With an unlimited supply, one may be tempted to just let that baby run.
> 
> With the hassle of obtaining gasoline, one might be more considerate of generator run-times.


Natural Gas here is cheap.... about $4 per 1000CF. The reason you need large diameter pipes for natural gas is that it is rather low pressure on the lines I think about 3-5 lbs of pressure normally so they have to use larger pipes to increase the volume delivered. I would suggest if you find yourself having many long term power outages a smaller inverter generator could pay for itself in fuel costs be it either natural gas or gasoline. I'm guessing a 2kw or 3kw inverter generator could get by on half load average of less than 100CF an hour or about 2.4MF and that would cost about $10 a day here if my math is right to run 24 hours or about 40 cents an hour?

But we are straying a bit off topic.... this thread is about lights/batteries in power outage.
For me it is more about recharging batteries during outages as I don't stock much in the way of alkalines etc for power outages now that I have invested in rechargeable batteries and charging solutions. A portable generator just puts the exclamation point on the "no need to buy batteries" when you can recharge them.
I guess with a generator you don't need as many lights either as you can hook up a few lights to the generator instead of burning lanterns.


----------



## iamlucky13

I'd be comfortable with 1 x AA light per person and a battery per day, plus a couple 1 x AAA lights scattered around convenient locations when needed. In past outages, I've found a flashlight pointed at the ceiling putting out 10-20 lumens is plenty of light to safely walk around a room, and I use high modes for shorter periods of time for specific tasks.

What I actually have is ample for a week or more, which is over twice as long as the worst outage I've seen in 30+ years living in this region.

Lights
---
1x Thrunite Archer (1 x AA)
1x Armytek Tiara (1 x AA)
3 x Fenix AAA lights (1 x AAA)
Probably 5-6 cheap LED flashlights and headlamps (3 x AAA)
1 x Coleman fluorescent camp lantern (4 x D)
1 x 18V halogen tool light (Ryobi 18V)
Assorted candles

Power
---
2 x 14500 (state of charge varies, but usually kept fairly high)
4 x Eneloop AA's (kept charged in my camera bag for my flash)
8 x Eneloop AAA's (state of charge varies, used in various lights and gadgets and available when needed)
4 x Alkaline AA's minimum (kept on hand for general use and emergencies)
4 x Alkaline AAA's minimum (ibid)
2 x Ryobi 18V tool batteries
1 x Automotive jump starter (204 Wh nominal. Can be used with 12v-USB adapter and XTar charger for dozens of 14500 recharges)

I'm also going to get a small solar panel and basic charge controller to keep my riding mower battery topped up over the winter. In a pinch, it would top off the jump starter battery for a couple 14500 charges worth per day as long as the overcast isn't too dark.

I toy with the idea of getting an inverter generator to keep the fridge and woodstove blower running. I've heard of guys who use the Honda EU2000's daily in construction work who have gotten over 10,000 hours use with no maintenance except scheduled oil and spark plug changes. Based on that, I'm pretty comfortable giving the cheaper Champion or Yamaha models a try. They're both extremely popular with RV'ers.


----------



## Swedpat

A few days ago it was a power outage in my city. Usually it's several years between these occasions and usually they don't last more than half an hour or so. But this time it lasted 50min. It started when I was walking home from the job. The pedestrian street in the city became very dark and some portable light was really justified. Some people used their mobile phones. I had as well 4Sevens MMU-X and Nitecore EA41 NW in my pockets. I took the Nitecore and shined up my path among the people. 
It's fascinating how bright 580 lumens is in a city without any lights on! But it felt unnecessary bright in the crowd so I used the 160lm level. 
Power outages is fun because then I can use my flashlight without feeling that people will think "what's that nerdy guy playing with a flashlight?"
But I know some people find it unsafe with power outages because they are afraid of being robbed or so.


----------



## NH Lumens

See link in my signature.


----------



## brightex

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

As a manufacturer of flashlights we would like to assist by shedding some light on the issue of lumens and batteries.
For power outages it is important to have a flashlight that is both powerful and can last a long time in order to achieve this you need two important things:

· A high lumens flashlight
· A high capacity lithium battery

*Real Lumens Output*
Regarding lumens unfortunately most of the lumens claims by flashlight manufacturers are far from accurate. We have even tested 5 popular “high lumens” flashlights at *Underwriters Laboratories (UL)* and the average lumens of the XML T6 type led flashlights (when tested with a fully charged 18650 battery) *was only 335 lumens*. See the bellow picture for some of the test results.






Click here for the Full test results and additional detailed information

You should also be aware that according to CREE web site an XML T6 LED with 1000mA current (which is the common current among flashlights) will give you a *maximum of 388* *lumens* and even at 2000mA (which is far above the standard current) the maximum lumens output is *only 692 lumens*.
So if you want a truly high lumens flashlight, make sure that any lumens claim is backed up by a reputable independent test lab.

*Recommended Battery*
For all uses but particularly for power outages you need a high capacity battery that will give you sufficient light for many hours. For this reason we recommend that you purchase a flashlight which has works also with the high capacity 26650 battery.
Make sure your battery is a protected battery, so you won’t damage it if you accidentally reverse charge it.
As is the case with lumens also the capacity of the batteries is in many cases exaggerated by the manufacturers, so make sure to verify that the capacity of the battery has been tested, such as we have done on our 26650 battery. The rated capacity is 4800mAh and the tested capacity is as can been seen is 4864mAh.


----------



## LeanBurn

Treeguy said:


> You have 24 Eneloops? I'm jealous. I have 8 and I think I'll get 8 more. I have four white for the "normal" lights and four Pro in the TN4A HI.
> 
> I think I could just own AA Thrunites and I'd be happy. And as far as power failures go, it's a winning formula. Simple, efficient, and inexpensive. Works for me.



I know that plan works for me !


----------



## Treeguy

StarHalo said:


> The Anker PowerHouse is on sale today; 400Wh/120,000mAh, *Li-Ion cells*, *9 lbs*, 160W max so laptops/flatscreen TVs/mini-fridges are all possible, could be quite the game changer at the campsite..



I want it. 

I don't care if I don't need it - I want it.


----------



## irongate

Treeguy said:


> I want it.
> 
> I don't care if I don't need it - I want it.



For the price it better be nice!


----------



## BloodLust

Just came off a 3 hour power outage. Some tree branches snagged on some lines. This was during midday at that too.
It's not light that's a problem where I live. It's the heat and humidity. Our current winter temps are quite hot at high 80's F and real feel in the high 90's with over 90% humidity.
Good thing I have 2 recargeable emergency fans powered by lead acid batteries. 2 USB mini fans powered by my power banks or Goal ZeroGuide 10+ and Nomad 7 solar panel. Plus 1 portable fan powered by 1x 18650 (I should get 1 more of these.).

It was tolerable for the duration but an extended outage would be quite an inconvenience. Went through a 3 day outage the other year due to a storm and solar couldn't keep up since there was no sun.
I'll probably make a swamp cooler soon just to know if it's feasible.

The problem now is we have a baby on the way and stop-gap measures just won't cut it.

Will have to replan my power outage strategies and also my bugout plan.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

BloodLust said:


> Just came off a 3 hour power outage. Some tree branches snagged on some lines. This was during midday at that too.
> It's not light that's a problem where I live. It's the heat and humidity. Our current winter temps are quite hot at high 80's F and real feel in the high 90's with over 90% humidity.
> Good thing I have 2 recargeable emergency fans powered by lead acid batteries. 2 USB mini fans powered by my power banks or Goal ZeroGuide 10+ and Nomad 7 solar panel. Plus 1 portable fan powered by 1x 18650 (I should get 1 more of these.).
> 
> It was tolerable for the duration but an extended outage would be quite an inconvenience. Went through a 3 day outage the other year due to a storm and solar couldn't keep up since there was no sun.
> I'll probably make a swamp cooler soon just to know if it's feasible.
> 
> The problem now is we have a baby on the way and stop-gap measures just won't cut it.
> 
> Will have to replan my power outage strategies and also my bugout plan.



Lucky You , and i mean it we have only had about 30min of power outage in the last 10 years, Well it`s back to walking around the house with the lights off again, At least it`s winter and it get`s dark at 4pm, I hate the summer.

John.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Lucky You , and i mean it we have only had about 30min of power outage in the last 10 years, Well it`s back to walking around the house with the lights off again, At least it`s winter and it get`s dark at 4pm, I hate the summer.
> 
> John.


We went from having power outages 8 times a year averaging an hour and a half to 2 power outages a year averaging 30 minutes. I've found 2 hours or less power outage here almost a teaser in that by the time you get things sorted for an extended outage in form and mindset the power comes back on and you end up having to put everything back up.


----------



## StarHalo

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Lucky You , and i mean it we have only had about 30min of power outage in the last 10 years, Well it`s back to walking around the house with the lights off again, At least it`s winter and it get`s dark at 4pm, I hate the summer.



Don't forget Earth Hour, a full hour-long power outage and you even get to prepare..


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

Power Cut`s during the day, What a waste 

John


----------



## StarHalo

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Power Cut`s during the day, What a waste



Earth Hour is at 8:30PM your local time; Parliament, Buckingham Palace, Big Ben, Brighton Pier will all go dark..


----------



## Lynx_Arc

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Power Cut`s during the day, What a waste
> 
> John



I've had outages during the day, and it does make you realize that you need radios and fans and entertainment possibly battery powered tvs and dvd players even. After the 2007 ice storm here that had half the state without power for close to a week I invested in a portable dvd player which I have never used for power outages because there hasn't been a long one since then but I did use it traveling when I was out of town for a few days at a relatives house that didn't have any decent tv or dvds.


----------



## adnj

I regularly see two scenarios: loss of power for a few hours or loss of power for a few days. For a few hours, AA NiMH batteries in lights that throw about 50 lumens is great. They last long and you can replace with alkaline backups batteries that you probably have lying around in remote controls. One flashlight per floor is what I stash plus two in the kitchen. 

For a few days, rechargeable cells and a way to charge them. You'll also need brighter lights just in case of maybe 250 lumens. You will need a way to keep a cell phone and tablet charged and working, too. I use 18650 LiIon batteries. I keep a spare for each light and some CR123 primaries, just in case. 

The biggest problem is keeping the refrigerator going. The only way is a generator. Run it it in for about 3 hours, twice each day and you should be fine. 

Charge your batteries, turn on the TV and sit in front of the fan while it's on because the refrigerator only pulls about 600 watts after start up. 

If it's cold outside, your problem is keeping warm and being able to get hot water for bathing. A woodstove or fireplace and an outdoor grill or firepit solves most of those problems.


----------



## Treeguy

adnj said:


> I regularly see two scenarios: loss of power for a few hours or loss of power for a few days. For a few hours, AA NiMH batteries in lights that throw about 50 lumens is great. They last long and you can replace with alkaline backups batteries that you probably have lying around in remote controls. One flashlight per floor is what I stash plus two in the kitchen.
> 
> For a few days, rechargeable cells and a way to charge them. You'll also need brighter lights just in case of maybe 250 lumens. You will need a way to keep a cell phone and tablet charged and working, too. I use 18650 LiIon batteries. I keep a spare for each light and some CR123 primaries, just in case.
> 
> The biggest problem is keeping the refrigerator going. The only way is a generator. Run it it in for about 3 hours, twice each day and you should be fine.
> 
> Charge your batteries, turn on the TV and sit in front of the fan while it's on because the refrigerator only pulls about 600 watts after start up.
> 
> If it's cold outside, your problem is keeping warm and being able to get hot water for bathing. A woodstove or fireplace and an outdoor grill or firepit solves most of those problems.



I've lived though - and worked in - countless winter outages, some of them quite long. _(I also spent a year in a cabin with no running water or electricity.)_ You tend to sleep early and get up early. A few necessities are hot food, hot drinks, and decent lighting due to the early winter sunsets. These keep the morale going, and in a protracted power outage, you really need to keep your spirits up. You can survive eating cold food sitting in the dark, but that's no fun. If you have a bad attitude, everything is a pain in the keester. Gotta get into the camping mode and have a positive attitude. And patience.

Something I've noticed with winter power outages, with myself and with others, is that it is Day Three where the fun ends. By that time even a well insulated house is going to be very cold if you have no secondary heat source, or an inadequate one. By Day Three the fun of indoor camping is a lot less fun. That's where being prepared becomes solid gold. Anyone can sit under a few blankets and eat cold canned soup for two days and kind of laugh it off, but by Day Three, it ain't funny anymore. Pipes freezing becomes a real worry, and getting supplies become more and more problematic. Winter power outages usually happen during a blizzard or ice storm, and once the trees are down on the lines and everything is a total mess and the roads are impassable, the blizzard moves on, the skies clear, and the temperature plummets. Happens every time. Then you are left cold in the dark with a mess to clean up and it's -20. That's the Day Three scenario. That's where being prepared really kicks in.

As for bathing, you can wash with one gallon of hot water. Meaning if you can boil a half gallon and mix that with a half gallon of cold water, you can get clean, comfortably. With two gallons of more, you're fat and happy. You sit on a milk crate in the bath - because the bathtub is cold - pour a few cups of warm/hot water over your head to get soaped up, and all the rest for a good rinse. I've done it a hundred times and more. 

One thing for sure with plans for winter outages, follow what Henry David Thoreau said: _"Simplify! Simplify!" _

Sorry for the speech, but I have a lot of experience with living in the dark and the cold.


----------



## StarHalo

Treeguy said:


> If you have a bad attitude, everything is a pain in the keester. Gotta get into the camping mode and have a positive attitude. And patience.



^This. It sounds silly to read it if you've never been in a prolonged outage, but you have to _keep morale up_; limited utilities day in and day out isn't much fun, maintaining a basic eating/tasks schedule and living orderly suddenly becomes a whole lot more important. That's why I so often bring up using warm lighting and having a battery-powered radio on hand for morale, these are the kinds of details you don't really think about until they're needed. 

I also recommend having a supply of alkaline batteries ready to go, as trying to keep track of which rechargeable cells are charged or empty, how to charge cells, which devices have rechargeables in them is time and mental-process consuming when you need to figure out how to keep the heat source going and what's for dinner and etc - skip all that, pop out the dead battery and pop a new one in from the pile, on to the next task.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Treeguy said:


> Then you are left cold in the dark with a mess to clean up and it's -20. That's the Day Three scenario. That's where being prepared really kicks in.
> 
> As for bathing, you can wash with one gallon of hot water. Meaning if you can boil a half gallon and mix that with a half gallon of cold water, you can get clean, comfortably. With two gallons of more, you're fat and happy. You sit on a milk crate in the bath - because the bathtub is cold - pour a few cups of warm/hot water over your head to get soaped up, and all the rest for a good rinse. I've done it a hundred times and more.
> 
> One thing for sure with plans for winter outages, follow what Henry David Thoreau said: _"Simplify! Simplify!" _
> 
> Sorry for the speech, but I have a lot of experience with living in the dark and the cold.



Around here heating is mostly done by natural gas and hot water tanks operate fine as long as the water is available some houses even have non powered (blower free) heating or you can turn on a gas stove or burners it isn't efficient but a 4 day outage we heated the whole house with 4 kitchen burners on and when we got too cold hot showers were good to take.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Speaking of power outages..... we could have an ice storm ahead of us in a few days here not sure where the freezing line is going to be but lots of rain plus below freezing is a recipe for power outages. I'm glad I have a new battery in my car this year I could end up charging a bunch of stuff from it in a few days if the weather goes sour.


----------



## Poppy

Treeguy said:


> A few necessities are hot food, hot drinks, and decent lighting due to the early winter sunsets. These keep the morale going, and in a protracted power outage, you really need to keep your spirits up. You can survive eating cold food sitting in the dark, but that's no fun.
> 
> Something I've noticed with winter power outages, with myself and with others, is that* it is Day Three where the fun ends*. By that time even a well insulated house is going to be very cold if you have no secondary heat source, or an inadequate one. By Day Three the fun of indoor camping is a lot less fun. That's where being prepared becomes solid gold. Anyone can sit under a few blankets and eat cold canned soup for two days and kind of laugh it off, but *by Day Three, it ain't funny anymore*. .



Yes
Treeguy, I have noticed the same thing. We have been very fortunate regarding outages. When SuperStorm Sandy hit, we lost power for three and a half days. I had a generator, and for some reason my neighbors didn't want to leave their homes. Maybe afraid of looters. But it was the third day, that people were really getting stressed. If not one person, that person's spouse, which ultimately stressed the rest of the house.

We didn't have freezing temps, so we didn't have to worry about pipes, but yeah... without some form of heat, it started getting chilly inside. After the power came back on at my house, my gennie moved to three different locations, a day, here, a day there, and a few days somewhere else. Being prepared can go a long way.


----------



## adnj

Treeguy said:


> Gotta get into the camping mode and have a positive attitude. And patience.
> 
> Something I've noticed with winter power outages, with myself and with others, is that it is Day Three where the fun ends. By that time even a well insulated house is going to be very cold if you have no secondary heat source, or an inadequate one. By Day Three the fun of indoor camping is a lot less fun. That's where being prepared becomes solid gold.



So much excellent survival info here and the posts above. A positive attitude is a must. 

During winter outages, we were able to find work and fun things to do during the day to keep up the spirits. Twenty inches of snow and near zero degrees is still great wood chopping and dog walking weather (if the dog is willing). 

I'm in the Caribbean this winter and the biggest problem her is cold beer during a power outage. Most of the people I know that live here have no concept of freezing to death in your sleep during a power outage.


----------



## Treeguy

Poppy said:


> Yes
> Treeguy, I have noticed the same thing. We have been very fortunate regarding outages. When SuperStorm Sandy hit, we lost power for three and a half days. I had a generator, and for some reason my neighbors didn't want to leave their homes. Maybe afraid of looters. But it was the third day, that people were really getting stressed. If not one person, that person's spouse, which ultimately stressed the rest of the house.
> 
> We didn't have freezing temps, so we didn't have to worry about pipes, but yeah... without some form of heat, it started getting chilly inside. After the power came back on at my house, my gennie moved to three different locations, a day, here, a day there, and a few days somewhere else. Being prepared can go a long way.



Hey Poppy,

Been out shovelling roofs the last few days. We're getting a ton of snow and it's going to rain later tomorrow, so everyone is freaking out thinking their roof is going to collapse. One more part of being prepared: shovel your ******* roof *BEFORE!* it's three-feet deep and it's going to start raining. Everyone waits until the last minute thinking it's best to get their money's worth by having as much snow on the roof as possible before it gets shovelled. That kind of thinking is what gets people in a lot of trouble. They are so worried about saving $1 they risk $1000. 

Drives me bonkers.


----------



## Grijon

Excellent posts, Treeguy; thanks for sharing!

StarHalo, that's a really profound point about primaries that I hadn't thought of - thanks!


----------



## Poppy

Hi Treeguy,
I'd think that people, up there in your part of the world, would have very steep roofs, so that the snow wouldn't build up.
If you go up there, be sure to tie yourself off with a safety line.


----------



## Treeguy

Poppy said:


> Hi Treeguy,
> I'd think that people, up there in your part of the world, would have very steep roofs, so that the snow wouldn't build up.
> If you go up there, be sure to tie yourself off with a safety line.



Evening,

Even a steep roof will hold the snow. Often as not, even a steep metal roof will hold the snow far more than you would think. I try not shovel metal roofs, it totally absolutely sucks. As for the shingle roofs, haven't needed a safety line yet. But I do tend to shovel "tactically", always keeping a curb of snow at the edge of the roof for good footing to avoid that last doozy of a step. 

At least the rain stopped, and no collapsed houses yet.


----------



## watt4

there are several youtube videos about removing snow from roofs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Po-qpUZ6pE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0D1fTvy5qw


----------



## StarHalo

The Anker Powercore Fusion battery pack/wall charger, $25. Two-outlet USB wall charger with 5000mAh battery pack; plug in your phone to charge overnight and the power goes out - no problem, the battery pack continues charging your phone without skipping a beat, you wake with a fully charged phone regardless of the power being on or off.


----------



## Treeguy

StarHalo said:


> The Anker Powercore Fusion battery pack/wall charger, $25. Two-outlet USB wall charger with 5000mAh battery pack; plug in your phone to charge overnight and the power goes out - no problem, the battery pack continues charging your phone without skipping a beat, you wake with a fully charged phone regardless of the power being on or off.



Neat. I might grab one for the wife to take to work and keep in her purse.

I bought the 20,100mAh Anker power pack ($45) so we can charge all the phones and tablets if we have/want to. Or just charge one device over and over and over. 

Now I have to get a USB charging flashlight.


----------



## vicv

I may be raining on the parade here but if I need it if the power goes out at night and I wake up and need power now I need about 20 lumens and one cell for the five minutes it takes me to go outside and throw my transfer switch and start my generator. Then I let that run until power comes back on. It uses half a gallon of diesel/wmo mix an hour. I heat with wood but I'm on a well so need power for water and I shut it off at bedtime


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

I have been trying to find some 1D flashlight`s in the UK, But without success, they look like a great emergency light.

John.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

TinderBox (UK) said:


> I have been trying to find some 1D flashlight`s in the UK, But without success, they look like a great emergency light.
> 
> John.


The 1D lights aren't bad as you can use cheap heavy duty batteries in them and with adapters anything from AAA to C cells also but to be honest these days with the increasingly efficient LEDs and low levels 1 and 2AA lights and 18650 based lights do well enough so as to not have to buy D cells to fuel emergency lighting.


----------



## braddy

vicv said:


> I may be raining on the parade here but if I need it if the power goes out at night and I wake up and need power now I need about 20 lumens and one cell for the five minutes it takes me to go outside and throw my transfer switch and start my generator. Then I let that run until power comes back on. It uses half a gallon of diesel/wmo mix an hour. I heat with wood but I'm on a well so need power for water and I shut it off at bedtime



You can google how to make one of these from PVC pipe, for your well, just in case. https://www.lehmans.com/product/lehmans-own-galvanized-well-bucket/pump-parts


----------



## vicv

Thanks. I have two wells on my property and the other one has a hand pump on it. Water is 150' deep so it's a lot of works but in an emergency it'll get me water


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

We recently experienced our third power outage in the last 17 years. ............ it was during the day. :sigh: 

~ Chance


----------



## cp2315

Pretty sure some in Northeast will have no power tonight due to the high wind. Good luck!


----------



## PiperBob

Treeguy said:


> What model?




I have an MS 311. Wish I had more call to use it!

On the original topic, with 1170 posts (yes, I read through them all!!!) I still have something to add. First, I'd say that in my 50 years, I've probably been through 100 or more power outages, but most are only minutes in length. I've been through three our four that lasted days -- all due to ice storms.

I camp for 10 days every summer, so I have a bunch of lights and batteries and a lot of practice using them. I don't know what I'd need exactly for a five day outage, but I'm sure I have plenty. In the past when we have had multi day outages we have always used candles for background light. We have some of those that are in jars. We'll set one on the counter in the kitchen, one on the fireplace hearth, and one on the counter in the bathroom. That done we can walk around the house safely. Since we're not talking about an ongoing emergency, but simply a lack of power, there are no real safety issues. Since we have a fireplace, there is an ABC extinguisher handy in the living room.

I enjoyed reading about the Maglite forever mod, and I plan on working on something like that soon.

So here are the a few things that I feel like haven't really been covered that I can add to the discussion:

1) I have a car jumpstarter that I use for starting my riding mower in the spring. It's a SLA battery with jumping cables. It also has a USB port and a CLA. It's 10 amp hours. One of those USB laptop lights would probably run for a year on 10 amp hours.

2) When the power is out we play music. Reading music requires light. In the past I've had to set up multiple lanterns to get enough light on the music stand. My wife recently bought a LED music stand light for gigs that runs off of either a wall wart or three AA batteries. Problem solved!

3) A 3xAA set of white Christmas lights provides nice general illumination for eating.

4) I have an Energizer 55 lumen 3xD battery lantern (discontinued). It's waterproof to 2m. It has a built in hook on the bottom, so you can hang it. We use it camping over the table and it provides nice light for playing cards or whatever. We used it for a week last time on one set of old, previously used D cells. In a power outage I could hang it from a ceiling fan for lighting a room. 

There was some discussion a few pages back on how to get information in an emergency situation. My parents were just outside the evacuation area when hurricane Matthew hit Georgia. Both cell and land lines were down. I was able to get information about their area though, because the police department was on facebook and city hall was on twitter. I also found that just searching FB for the name of their town provided lots of pictures of the damage to the area. The point here is that even though their cell phones were out, others in the area had them, and FB and twitter were useful.

Back to our general situation -- our house is set for heat because we have a wood stove and at least two years of wood (hence the chain saw  ). We have gas hot water. I have a propane grill, and also a propane wok burner, so 2x20lb propane tanks. I have some bottles of water in the basement to last at least a few days, but we live within 100 feet of a 30 sq mi lake. I keep a bottle of Clorox with the EPA dilution for sterilizing water written on it. We live close enough to city hall and the police station that I can walk there to get information if things go on for more than a few days. Where we live the greatest potential threat the nuclear plant. We need to be able to either shelter in place or evacuate, as instructed.


----------



## PiperBob

Oh, one more idea that comes from camping. I have some cheap solar landscape lights that I use for marking tent ropes. They're 1.2 lumens or something. They have a NiCd AA in them. They run a long time on a charge (supposedly 8 hours on a 400mAh battery), and have an on/off switch. In a power outage they would be handy for providing background light in a room or hallway, especially with a better battery.


----------



## Tachead

irongate said:


> For the price it better be nice!



Yeah, the Powerhouse is way too much. 

You can get a 100+amp hour sealed cell deep cycle pure lead AGM battery along with a USB charger, a 12V socket adapter, and a small inverter and still have $100 left over for the price of the Powerhouse. Plus, the Pure Lead AGM battery will likely last considerably longer(PL AGM has a cycle life up to 900 cycles), has double the warranty, and when it dies you don't have to throw out all the accessories like with the Powerhouse. You just buy a new battery and you are good to go again. For the price of the powerhouse you are getting into the price range of a 1000 watt inverter generator as well. 

The Powerhouse is nice and it is definitely compact and light compared to other options but really, if you need this much capacity you are going to be carrying it by car or leaving it in a stationary place anyway. I personally don't think this is a very good option for a large capacity reserve power source unless you need the lightest and most compact option and have money to burn.


----------



## BloodLust

PiperBob said:


> Oh, one more idea that comes from camping. I have some cheap solar landscape lights that I use for marking tent ropes. They're 1.2 lumens or something. They have a NiCd AA in them. They run a long time on a charge (supposedly 8 hours on a 400mAh battery), and have an on/off switch. In a power outage they would be handy for providing background light in a room or hallway, especially with a better battery.



I switched mine out to Ni-Mh AAs.
I can swap them with rechargeable or alkaline AAs if I need to use them for extended periods.


----------



## filibuster

BloodLust said:


> I switched mine out to Ni-Mh AAs...



For long term use one thing to understand about NiMh cells compared to NiCd in this type of application is that a NiMh cell is more prone to damage because of high heat situations. NiCd cells are primarily used in the solar lights because they can endure the higher heat conditions for longer periods without as much decline in their performance.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

filibuster said:


> For long term use one thing to understand about NiMh cells compared to NiCd in this type of application is that a NiMh cell is more prone to damage because of high heat situations. NiCd cells are primarily used in the solar lights because they can endure the higher heat conditions for longer periods without as much decline in their performance.


Not to mention most of those cheap solar landscape lights can't charge up more than a nicad anyway especially in the winter on cloudy days.


----------



## BloodLust

Thanks! That's good to know.

I'm near equatorial so solar is a good option. Always full sun if it's not raining. Downside of living in a tropical country, it's hot and humid! In terms of cold vs heat, it's easier to layer up than to keep cool in a power outage. Especially an extended one. Shelf life of food is also shorter.

It was about 20-21C/70F for the previous week (that's our winter temp in the city) and people were already complaining. A lot were getting sick too. I crave the cold and I still had my air conditioner turned on. Which is why I'm in Canada, US, Japan and Korea almost every month. I look forward to the winters. ⛄❄


----------



## Lynx_Arc

BloodLust said:


> Thanks! That's good to know.
> 
> I'm near equatorial so solar is a good option. Always full sun if it's not raining. Downside of living in a tropical country, it's hot and humid! In terms of cold vs heat, it's easier to layer up than to keep cool in a power outage. Especially an extended one. Shelf life of food is also shorter.
> 
> It was about 20-21C/70F for the previous week (that's our winter temp in the city) and people were already complaining. A lot were getting sick too. I crave the cold and I still had my air conditioner turned on. Which is why I'm in Canada, US, Japan and Korea almost every month. I look forward to the winters. ⛄❄


I agree as it gets hot and humid here a power outage in the heat of the summer can be very deadly to some as we have had temperatures in excess of 110 on rare occasion. A few years back the LOW temp at night was in the 90s luckily the humidity wasn't up adding much to the heat index. Even solar panels and battery banks can't handle the power requirements of central AC here in the summer so when the power goes out you are stuck using water and battery fans and buying ice for ice chests.

Personally LEDs are so much more efficient on lighting that unless you need wireless powered lighting it makes little sense to invest money in solar powered lights they tend to underperform and not last very well in use.


----------



## BloodLust

I have a 1hp inverter air-conditioner and I'm checking the wattage. I have to do more of the math but I might be able to run it off a portable generator.

Evaporative coolers only really work if there's someplace to evaporate to.

It's still a bit hard to justify a generator purchase for the off chance of a power outage but when you need one, you really need one!


----------



## PiperBob

Lynx_Arc said:


> Not to mention most of those cheap solar landscape lights can't charge up more than a nicad anyway especially in the winter on cloudy days.




Some of mine have on-off switches, so one could have several charging for multiple days.

In the context of the thread though, people are hacking together low lumen lights for general illumination. The solar lights are already made -- just keep one in the cabinet next to a pack of alkaline batteries.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

PiperBob said:


> Some of mine have on-off switches, so one could have several charging for multiple days.
> 
> In the context of the thread though, people are hacking together low lumen lights for general illumination. The solar lights are already made -- just keep one in the cabinet next to a pack of alkaline batteries.


I agree. A dim solar light used primarily for a power outage of reasonable (not extreme length) the solar charging is not really needed if you have cheap alkalines or other batteries to toss in it as the nicads are usually from 400-800mah to run half the night while an alkaline AA has 2800mah or so should run for half a week or so maybe a week.
I have several Energizer 1D accent lanterns (outdoor garden lights) that run for 100-200 hours off a single D cell with earlier generation 5mm LEDs in them probably todays 5mm LEDs are twice as efficient. 

To put it bluntly... single 5mm LEDs can run a LOOOOOOOOONG time off batteries such that having to recharge a battery to power such a light in a power outage often is probably not needed.


----------



## markr6

Had a power outage from storms at 2:30am this morning. Normally that wouldn't matter but my 2 year old was scared and woke up. So we came down and played for a while. Used the MX25L3C Nichia to ceiling bounce some light. Perfect!

It lasted 25 minutes, which is the longest I can remember in 36 years...other than one other time but I was out of town then. So being crazy prepared is still not a top priority for me.


----------



## Hugh Johnson

This is going to sound blasphemous on a flashlight site but candles are also great to have around during an outage.


----------



## BloodLust

PiperBob said:


> Some of mine have on-off switches, so one could have several charging for multiple days.
> 
> In the context of the thread though, people are hacking together low lumen lights for general illumination. The solar lights are already made -- just keep one in the cabinet next to a pack of alkaline batteries.



Mine have the switch.
I have these. They can stand on their own without the stakes and they make nice table lamps.









Hugh Johnson said:


> This is going to sound blasphemous on a flashlight site but candles are also great to have around during an outage.


I discourage open flame indoors in our household. Plus it will add to the heat. I do have a stash for emergencies though. I'm also getting a UCO candle lantern.


----------



## ZMZ67

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Sub_Umbra said:


> Emphasis mine.
> 
> I would advise people to avoid candles at all costs during an outage when the fire department may be stressed out or nonexistent... When our power is out after a storm I walk around to all of my closest neighbors and make sure that they have flashlights. If they don't I will lend them one (with batteries) so they won't have to burn candles next to MY house. I stock candles for trade goods but I wouldn't trade them to anyone who lives within a couple hundred feet of me...
> 
> A 9v Pak-Lite and two lithium batteries will provide 2,000 hours of runtime. Very few have put by enough fuel, food and water to take them through the runtime that a Pak-Lite and a spare battery will deliver.
> 
> To deliberately plan to use an open flame for light when there may be no fire department or even water to put out a fire would seem flippant, especially when there are so many affordable alternatives in the 21st century.



I thought this post from Sub Umbra ,who had experience with hurricane Katrina IIRC, was worth reposting. With all the LED options available I can't see much reason to use a flame producing device indoors for lighting unless you are in cold weather without heat.The fire potential isn't really worth the risk IMO. If you want the additional heat that candles will provide because you are in a cold weather environment I would suggest a lamp or lantern of some sort where the flame is at least enclosed. 

Pak-Lites still represent an easy and reliable light source for power outages. They will run a long time even on alkalines and 9V batteries will probably be easier to find in stores (in the U.S. at least) than basic AAA,AA,C and D if there is a run on emergency supplies.


----------



## gravelmonkey

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



ZMZ67 said:


> I thought this post from Sub Umbra ,who had experience with hurricane Katrina IIRC, was worth reposting. With all the LED options available I can't see much reason to use a flame producing device indoors for lighting unless you are in cold weather without heat.The fire potential isn't really worth the risk IMO. If you want the additional heat that candles will provide because you are in a cold weather environment I would suggest a lamp or lantern of some sort where the flame is at least enclosed.
> 
> Pak-Lites still represent an easy and reliable light source for power outages. They will run a long time even on alkalines and 9V batteries will probably be easier to find in stores (in the U.S. at least) than basic AAA,AA,C and D if there is a run on emergency supplies.



+1. I'm trying to put together some 5mm 'candle flicker LED' lanterns for my parents. The LED's are available on ebay under various descriptions, whole assembly should be so cheap that I don't mind storing alkalines in them indefinitely.

I also like battery operated fairy lights. I've a string of warm white, running on 3 or 4 AA's from Ikea that gives really comfortable "background lighting".

The other thing I've come across recently are cheap, battery operated PIR sensor lights (from banggod etc). I figure they will be useful for supplemental lighting in bathrooms or staircases etc. automatic nature means there's no stumbling around in the dark, they don't need to be left switched on in unoccupied rooms and people won't forget to turn them off once they leave the room.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



gravelmonkey said:


> +1. I'm trying to put together some 5mm 'candle flicker LED' lanterns for my parents. The LED's are available on ebay under various descriptions, whole assembly should be so cheap that I don't mind storing alkalines in them indefinitely.
> 
> I also like battery operated fairy lights. I've a string of warm white, running on 3 or 4 AA's from Ikea that gives really comfortable "background lighting".
> 
> The other thing I've come across recently are cheap, battery operated PIR sensor lights (from banggod etc). I figure they will be useful for supplemental lighting in bathrooms or staircases etc. automatic nature means there's no stumbling around in the dark, they don't need to be left switched on in unoccupied rooms and people won't forget to turn them off once they leave the room.


You may be able to find candle flicker type LEDs at stores like Dollar Tree.
As for the PIR lights I bought a cheap one and it doesn't work right and is not adjustable. It turns off about 10 seconds after it is tripped and then hard to turn back on again. It operates off 1AA battery. PIR lights have a constant current drain on them which often isn't listed that will slowly drain the battery even when not tripped.


----------



## ZMZ67

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



gravelmonkey said:


> +1. I'm trying to put together some 5mm 'candle flicker LED' lanterns for my parents. The LED's are available on ebay under various descriptions, whole assembly should be so cheap that I don't mind storing alkalines in them indefinitely.
> 
> I also like battery operated fairy lights. I've a string of warm white, running on 3 or 4 AA's from Ikea that gives really comfortable "background lighting".
> 
> The other thing I've come across recently are cheap, battery operated PIR sensor lights (from banggod etc). I figure they will be useful for supplemental lighting in bathrooms or staircases etc. automatic nature means there's no stumbling around in the dark, they don't need to be left switched on in unoccupied rooms and people won't forget to turn them off once they leave the room.



I use several Dorcy Motion Sensor Night Lights (model # 41-1076) around the house. They produce plenty of light to see my way around and output is warm on the ones I purchased. They are a little pricey at $14.99 but I bought them on sale for a bit less.They are cheaper than Pak-lites, work reliably and battery life seems to be pretty decent using L91 lithiums. I may try eneloops the next time I replace the batteries and see how they work. Alkalines are a no go for me as they just leak to often. I don't know if the current models are still warm as they appear to be cooler white in the picture on Dorcy's site. Forgot about them in my earlier post because I am used to their presence and they really don't get any attention until the batteries give out.


----------



## gravelmonkey

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Lynx_Arc said:


> You may be able to find candle flicker type LEDs at stores like Dollar Tree.
> As for the PIR lights I bought a cheap one and it doesn't work right and is not adjustable. It turns off about 10 seconds after it is tripped and then hard to turn back on again. It operates off 1AA battery. PIR lights have a constant current drain on them which often isn't listed that will slowly drain the battery even when not tripped.



Ah yes, good point about the constant drain, I'd forgotten about that! I don't think I've the gear/knowledge to test standby current draw but will look into it. Thanks!


----------



## Lynx_Arc

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



gravelmonkey said:


> Ah yes, good point about the constant drain, I'd forgotten about that! I don't think I've the gear/knowledge to test standby current draw but will look into it. Thanks!


If you have a decent ammeter (VOM) you can create the gear to test it by taking two thin pieced of metal and making a sandwich by putting a non insulating thin piece between then to connect to ammeter leads when slide between a battery terminal and one of the batteries.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

PM to StarHalo.

Bill


----------



## gravelmonkey

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Lynx_Arc said:


> If you have a decent ammeter (VOM) you can create the gear to test it by taking two thin pieced of metal and making a sandwich by putting a non insulating thin piece between then to connect to ammeter leads when slide between a battery terminal and one of the batteries.



Whoops forgot to report back! I received the Arilux AL101N (it's a white plastic, PIR warm-white LED light that throws light down against a plastic reflector) and measured 38.4mA when LED activated, and 0.06mA on standby. Not the most sensitive DMM in the world so I don't have micro amps setting.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



gravelmonkey said:


> Whoops forgot to report back! I received the Arilux AL101N (it's a white plastic, PIR warm-white LED light that throws light down against a plastic reflector) and measured 38.4mA when LED activated, and 0.06mA on standby. Not the most sensitive DMM in the world so I don't have micro amps setting.


60uA isn't bad for standy drain it would take perhaps drain about 5ma a month at that rate which is fine even a AAA battery has 800ma or more it would probably self drain faster than that. It is when you get up past 0.1ma drain that it starts to be noticeable. I had a 4AA tap light with electronic switch with a 4ma standby drain on it that after I figured that out took it out of service and gutted the circuitry it would drain a set of batteries in a week or two without ever turning it on.


----------



## Kd5jha

This is the best that I have found for that application. If you put a rechargable pak in the base it will run for ages. Or do like I did and mod yours so it can be plugged into a car battery or smaller SLA rechargable. Since I have a 2kw Honda generator that can charge 12v DC batteries I never have to worry about topping off my emergency battery bank. 

http://www.coleman.com/coleman-quad-led-lantern/2000024041.html

Another thing that I want to mention that people never think of when the powers out, is that they own a golf cart,boat or a scooter that has deep cycle batteries in it that have been on the charger that they could easily use them to power emergency needs... My dads golf cart had (6) 6v deep cycle heavy duty batteries. Lots of juice for running lights, fans, a radio or travel tv. Or powering an inverter.


----------



## concor

Just had a blackout a few nights ago that lasted for 5 hours. The thing about power outages is that it gets very dark very quickly. 

That means that your eyes will soon become dark adapted, which means you don't need much light indoors. I like to bring the light with me everywhere as I walk around so I clip on a right-angle headlamp to waist or shirt (either a AA or CR123) that has moonlight and low modes. Sometimes use a headlamp as well. Plus, at low output the batteries will last a heck of a long time. 

And flashlights that tailstand are great to light up a room, especially bathrooms. 1xAA and 1xCR123 tailstanders are excellent for that.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

concor said:


> Just had a blackout a few nights ago that lasted for 5 hours. The thing about power outages is that it gets very dark very quickly.
> 
> That means that your eyes will soon become dark adapted, which means you don't need much light indoors. I like to bring the light with me everywhere as I walk around so I clip on a right-angle headlamp to waist or shirt (either a AA or CR123) that has moonlight and low modes. Sometimes use a headlamp as well. Plus, at low output the batteries will last a heck of a long time.
> 
> And flashlights that tailstand are great to light up a room, especially bathrooms. 1xAA and 1xCR123 tailstanders are excellent for that.



I had a 3 hour blackout about a month ago here and like you said once your eyes adapt unless you are actually working on something todays very efficient LED lights and low levels like you said lights can run for days without changing batteries so with just a few sets of batteries in a few lights a weeks worth could be had. What was something is when all the street lights are out you don't need a powerful light to see things only 1/3 to 1/2 the lumens to get around outdoors if even that. You do need however to have a constant light with you or lights spread out over the house as there is no stray light from other sources at all to compensate. In an outage 5 lumens is huge and 50 lumens is almost enough to do everything but throw a block. 
I remember the days when a power outage of over a day I would pump up the unleaded gas lantern as it was cheaper than running down a 6V lantern or my 6D flourescent light which I had to switch to incan mode to see more than about 30 feet away. The most efficient lighting at that time didn't throw well at all so you ended up swapping from incans to fluorescent and at times gas lanterns. 
I'm beginning to wonder if anyone even uses gas lanterns these days much at all with rechargeable technology and LED efficiency unless you actually need 1000 lumens all the time with 18650s you can do 500 lumens for several hours with modern LEDs.


----------



## dmattaponi

Storms went through area last night. A couple of tornados reported in area. Knocked power out for a while. Thrunite TN4A tail standing on low lit the room very nicely. Thrunite TH20 headlamp for moving about and reading. Rechargable Eneloops in both. Only got to use them for a.couple of hours before power came back on, but it made for a fun little test.

The first words out of my daughter (who had previously teased me about my headlamp), was to ask for her own after this experience.


----------



## BloodLust

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Power outage for 6hours last night. Blown transformer near the area.
Fortunately, I wasn't home and was at work.. Unfortunately, my wife and kids were. I brought the car and we had a 4 month old at home.
Tropical country and rainy season just after summer right now. 90-100% humidity.

My older kid didn't have a problem with light. Having a baby again, it showed that I need even more area lighting and more fans and power banks.
The GE lantern from Costco was awesome as usual but I only had 1 of those so I might be picking 1 up soon.
Being lent a neutral high CRI quad Nichia floody flashlight just recently, I'm now seriously looking into neutral and warm high lumen lanterns. 1st choice is the Fenix CL30R. I didn't consider this model earlier due to lack of moonlight but for our situation, power is more important. Diaper changes, feeding, bathing, etc. I'll reserve moonlight for my personal lights.

Due to the heat and an additional member of the family, my emergency fans were almost depleted. Even my USB fans that pluginto powerbanks because the power banks were run down as well just to keep cool.

So I'm setting up a home emergency kit that's not part of the regular rotation that we use and keep it in a transparent utility box.
I'll put in a 20,000 mAh powerbank, USB fan, USB light, charging cables for electronics, and possibly a Fenix CL20 since it runs on AAs. Will be put beside a larger rechargeable emergency fan. I'll be keeping lithium primaries and a pack of bulk alkalines in there as well together with a backup powerbank that runs on 4xAA. Since I may not be home when it happens, I wouldn't want them fiddling with lithium-ions.
Small investment for much comfort during power failures.

I'm still studying the cost and safety of having a generator. I live in a small townhouse (but think of it as similar to apartment type living) so I wouldn't know where to put it. Or rather, run it where it wouldn't be exposed.

Having numerous failures and subpar performance in plug-in emergency lights, I'm investing in UV Paqlites/Matlite for the interior bathrooms. Much safer too. It's just to have something that will give me enough light to finish the task at hand and not leave me itt complete darkness. Plus it will lead me to my lights.

Life was much easier single. 😅
All my lights and things were just for me and I wasn't as picky.
Hehe! Anything for family! 👪


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



BloodLust said:


> Tropical country and rainy season just after summer right now. 90-100% humidity.



A GoalZero could work well for you if you want generator power without the generator, it's just a big battery pack, so no emissions or worrying about it around kids; there's enough wattage there for a full-size box fan if you'd like. 

Definitely prefer warm emitters for power outages, not so much lanterns which glare and are very rare in warm variants; look instead to ceiling-bouncing warm emitter flashlights, which will give you exponentially more choices and without the glare..


----------



## BloodLust

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Been looking at the Goal Zero ones. I have the Nomad 7 panels and Guide 10 Plus in my BOB.
The lanterns are more foolproof for the family. Just let them put it wherever they wish. I have a few lights set up and they still forget to do some things or that the lights are even there. The huge GE lantern is hard to miss.
Been happy with the GE Enbrighten so far. It's not as cool as other lanterns. The other members are happy as well.

I ceiling bounce with my lights. Am picking up an Astrolux S41S 5000K Quad Nichia soon + 18650 tube. Also a triple neutral XPG Convoy S2+ that's been modified for long runtimes and not too much draw also to limit the heat.


----------



## Grijon

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



BloodLust said:


> Also a triple neutral XPG Convoy S2+ that's been modified for long runtimes and not too much draw also to limit the heat.



Ooo, modified how?

In power-out/emergency situations I think runtime is so much more important than high lumens, but I seem to hear so much less about it.


----------



## LeanBurn

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Grijon said:


> In power-out/emergency situations I think runtime is so much more important than high lumens, but I seem to hear so much less about it.



In a power outage there is no artificial light anywhere so your eyes would be adapted to lower light levels already, thus requiring lower lumens to meet lighting needs. I too feel lower lumens and longer run times are the most important factors. You can read and do almost anything with 30L or less. Most of the time I do things with 20L down to 0.05 lumens, anything from reading a book to playing a board game...none requiring more than 30L.


----------



## 5001craig

I'm kind of late to this thread but I'll give my .02.

I love flashlights just like everyone else on here and I use them when the power goes out. But mainly just to hook-up my Honda EU2000i generator (my headlamp is my go to in this situation). Then all the lights come on in and outside the house (actually this does just about everything in my house except 220V items which I shut-off at the breaker box prior to hooking-up the generator so no air, water, clothes dryer, etc...). I have converted all lights inside and out to LED's. And this generator is an inverter type so we can use computers and TV as well as charge batteries that may need it. 

I have a six gallon aux tank for extended runs. Sometimes I grab this generator instead of a drop-cord. Had it with me today as I was told there would be a power outage at a customer and this is great for safety lighting.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



LeanBurn said:


> In a power outage there is no artificial light anywhere so your eyes would be adapted to lower light levels already, thus requiring lower lumens to meet lighting needs. I too feel lower lumens and longer run times are the most important factors. You can read and do almost anything with 30L or less. Most of the time I do things with 20L down to 0.05 lumens, anything from reading a book to playing a board game...none requiring more than 30L.



+1 on this.... in 2007 we had a huge ice storm I was without power for 4.5 days and back then I had feew luxeon based LED lights. The main light I used was an Energizer double brite CCFL/LED and the CCFL was propped up and I played cards on a coffee table. I used a 3x5mm LED 3AAA headlamp a lot of the time to navigate. 
Today if I had a power outage I could light every room of the house for a week at light levels as good as the flourescent light that I had to change batteries every 5 hours.


----------



## dmattaponi

Power got knocked out by another storm the other day. Was out from 2:30pm until after midnight. Obviously not long enough for a serious test, but enough time.to play around. My findings...headlamp most useful indoors. Also 15 to 30 lumens, more than adequate for everything I needed.


----------



## BloodLust

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



Grijon said:


> Ooo, modified how?
> 
> In power-out/emergency situations I think runtime is so much more important than high lumens, but I seem to hear so much less about it.



1 of the local modders where I'm from limited the current.
More practical for me as it will be more of a task and navigation light where flood and high CRI is much better suited.
Mostly for home/urban use so I just need a few hundred lumens max. Saves batteries and doesn't heat up as much so it sustains the output constantly.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

dmattaponi said:


> Power got knocked out by another storm the other day. Was out from 2:30pm until after midnight. Obviously not long enough for a serious test, but enough time.to play around. My findings...headlamp most useful indoors. Also 15 to 30 lumens, more than adequate for everything I needed.



In an outage you need the following:
1) A headlamp of 15+ lumens with a low mode of 5-30 lumens for runtime and to not totally destroy your night vision
2) A throwing flashlight of 80-300 lumens (or more) for checking out your "area" so you can see down the block or look around at power lines/poles.
3) A decent 30-150 lumen lantern to light up your "meeting" area (or several of them perhaps)
4) A few ~1-~10 lumen area lights just to light up things enough to get around like to the bathroom and hallways so those who don't like to carry headlights and flashlights can operate without them. 
5) A few cheap throwaway LED lights good enough for 4+ hours of 10-30 lumens that you can give away or forget about when away from home that you can also throw junk heavy duty or alkalines in and not worry about leakage.
6) A small pocket LED light so if you have a battery go out or malfunctioning light you still have light.

I think the uber 500+ lumen lights in an outage end up being "idled" on low modes instead of run normally as you just don't need a lot of light in an outage if you aren't working on something. With recharging technology and vehicle batteries a trip to local stores for alkaline "refills" is unneeded. The last big outage I had 10 years ago I had about a dozen AA alkalines in stock and never used even one of them instead I had a dozen energizer 2300 nimh AAs and a rayovac 1 hour charger with a car adapter cord that I recharged about 32 batteries with (about 2 sets of 4 per day). I recharged the battery in my truck when I was out running down ice and food and visiting people that had power never needing to just run the engine in the driveway.


----------



## BloodLust

I'd want a sustained 300 lumens though. This would more likely come from a light with a 700 or 1000+ lumen high or turbo.
Rather than have a 300+ high or turbo which will either step down or have heat issues.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

BloodLust said:


> I'd want a sustained 300 lumens though. This would more likely come from a light with a 700 or 1000+ lumen high or turbo.


I'm curious as to what you would be doing to need that many lumens in a power outage.


----------



## BloodLust

Lynx_Arc said:


> I'm curious as to what you would be doing to need that many lumens in a power outage.



Not really for me but for family. If I was alone, I could do with little light comfortably.
A good ceiling bounced neutral 300 lumen (maybe even 200+) I find that it gives a decent semblance of normalcy.
Tasks done will be kids activities (drawing, reading, playing), feeding, diaper changes (very important), etc.

We've done a lot with much less but it was usually a chore. I'm just trying to make them comfortable.
It's 1 less thing to worry about since the most annoying thing we have to deal with is the heat and humidity since we live in a tropical country. I have them stay in 1 place with rechargeable fans. It's bad enough to contend with the heat so having a good area light lessens the stress on them..and that is what my preps are for - to lessen stress in situations.
This will be a bedside light as well since my emergency and bugout gear is packed and streamlined.
I have the Energizer Light Fusion 2-in-1 flashlight/lamp currently on my bedside and it's ok for most tasks. I just want 1 a bit stronger and neutral. The Energizer will then be the backup.


Storms can take out power for a number of days. My longest is 10days or I think 2 weeks. The storm had 150mph wind gusts and took out a lot of power lines. Most recent was a 5hr power outage.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

BloodLust said:


> Not really for me but for family. If I was alone, I could do with little light comfortably.
> A good ceiling bounced neutral 300 lumen (maybe even 200+) I find that it gives a decent semblance of normalcy.
> Tasks done will be kids activities (drawing, reading, playing), feeding, diaper changes (very important), etc.
> 
> We've done a lot with much less but it was usually a chore. I'm just trying to make them comfortable.
> It's 1 less thing to worry about since the most annoying thing we have to deal with is the heat and humidity since we live in a tropical country. I have them stay in 1 place with rechargeable fans. It's bad enough to contend with the heat so having a good area light lessens the stress on them..and that is what my preps are for - to lessen stress in situations.
> This will be a bedside light as well since my emergency and bugout gear is packed and streamlined.
> I have the Energizer Light Fusion 2-in-1 flashlight/lamp currently on my bedside and it's ok for most tasks. I just want 1 a bit stronger and neutral. The Energizer will then be the backup.
> 
> 
> Storms can take out power for a number of days. My longest is 10days or I think 2 weeks. The storm had 150mph wind gusts and took out a lot of power lines. Most recent was a 5hr power outage.


I would recommend something that has a decent diffuser that you can hang near the ceiling with less lumens vs a ceiling bounce 300 lumen light myself... perhaps 2-3 150-200 lumen output lanterns. I've tinkered with USB power banks and USB LED lighting and using USB cords and adapters you can literally wire up lighting to suit yourself.


----------



## BloodLust

Lynx_Arc said:


> I would recommend something that has a decent diffuser that you can hang near the ceiling with less lumens vs a ceiling bounce 300 lumen light myself... perhaps 2-3 150-200 lumen output lanterns. I've tinkered with USB power banks and USB LED lighting and using USB cords and adapters you can literally wire up lighting to suit yourself.



That's one of my options. Possibly some Fenix CL20's
When I set up our new bedframe, I'll see what are the other possible options.
The bedframe has long steel posts so magnetic base lights and lanterns would be another option.
I'll see after I set it up.


----------



## PaladinNO

When I find myself in need of portable lighting over several days, I always bring both a second flashlight and spare batteries.
Unless I know for sure there is electricity, a (working) generator or reliable solar-power where I'm going, I'm bringing all I will need myself.

Considering I already got multiple battery backup solutions installed at home (in an area where we get a blackout 3-5 times a year - mostly whenever scheduled maintenance is occuring), when it comes to portable lights, I got it like this:

-Bathrooms: Compact, easy to use, double-AA Fenix E21's hanging from small wallmounts. ~150 Lm.
_Found myself required to have _something_ there, because going on the potty downstairs (small room; no windows), relaxing with a Donald Duck pocket, and then having the lights go out was not the most entertaining of experiences._

-Livingrooms/general areas: 3x 3-D cell Maglite whatever. No idea about its output, and frankly I dont care to know. Its single-output mode is giving out light everytime I give it a testrun, in case the automatic, roof-mounted battery-driven light decide it doesn't want to work.
The Maglites are only there to provide mobility in terms of where the light is needed.

-Workareas: 2x Octa-AA Fenix TK45's placed within easy reach on shelves, one on each floor. 
Top tip: they can _tailstand_, which is a highly(!) recommended feature when bringing some portable light to the family cabin where there is no electricity. 
Multiple modes, ranging from 8 to 760 Lm (232 to 2 hours runtime).

-Cars: Double-CR123 Streamlight Poly-Tac in high-visibility yellow. Single output, only for emergency uses.

-General portability: Single-18650 headlight, in my case, the Nitecore HC90. Stored in a tray in the foyer. With a spare battery placed in a box right next to it.
Several output modes.

-End of the world: Octa-18650 Fenix TK76 (with battery extender). 450 Lm for 32 hours, or 25 Lm for 520 hours.

Generally speaking, during a blackout, I would not want nor need more than 2 rooms lit at any single time. Granted, our familiy is smaller than 4 people, but under a prolonged blackout, I'd A) want several batteries ready-charged already, so I can keep whatever lights I decide to bring with me lit for pretty much any duration (battery preservation would be a given, naturally, considering I likely wouldn't know for how long I'd had to go without being able to recharge), and B) having smaller lights around for both access to illumination (as opposed to just a little light) and redundancy, in case my main light failed me for whatever reason.

Having as many as possible of the lights work on the same sort of battery would also be a good idea.

TL;DR: I'd have 2x double-AA lights for "just a little light" (100-150 Lm), plus 1x quad-AA light for illumination (500-1000 Lm) for (technically speaking, hopefully brief) social periods. 
I'd bring rechargable - and recharged (having messed than one up once!) - spares for them all, plus one 4-pack of alcalines, just in case and as a last resort.


----------



## BloodLust

Used 1 candle power to take a bath... hehe!
Used a tea light for lighting and just a bucket of water to take a bath to simulate a power outage and water shortage.
Highly doable for me. I wouldn't suggest it to my family members though. Maybe 10-15 lumens for kids. 100 lumens if giving the baby a bath.


----------



## StarHalo

Amazon now has a Storm Preparedness section, quite a selection..


----------



## h_nu

I check the charge on the Eneloops in my TK40 every spring and have lanterns, headlamps, 2 AA flashlights, and many others. Lighting is covered. I also have lots of Eneloops, Lithium AAA, AA, and 9v batteries, USB power packs, car chargers, inverters, and 3 computer UPSs. This and only two power outages longer than a few minutes in over 20 years.

Better to have it and not need it..


----------



## BloodLust

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Testing some of my area lighting & emergency gear.
Streamlining most of my gear to run of AA (single cell if possible since this also makes it easier to weed out a bad cell) due to accessibility of power source, ease of charging, and safe chemistry. Good balance of output and runtime as well.

• GE Enbrighten Lantern - 350 lumens in CW but closer to neutral tint. (I like this light so much that I'm picking up the newer 600 lumen version.) 8xD but can run on 4xD at half the runtime. I have AA->D Eneloop adapters.
• Energizer Light Fusion 2-in-1 flashlight/lamp 4xAA (Cool white but not bluish white.).
• Energizer 2-in-1 lamp 2xAA. (The lamp LED is almost neutral but the next one I bought was cool white.)
• UCO Leschi extendable flashlight/lantern 1xAA.
• Nite-Ize 3-in-1 extendable flashlight/lantern/beacon 1xAA.
• Fenix LD10 with diffuser wand (my pocket EDC) 1xAA.
• Coleman flashlight/wand in Red & Green. 1xAAA.
• Olight UC magnetic Ni-Mh/Li-Ion charger. (My EDC and bugout gear charger)
• Goal Zero Nomad 7 solar panel.
• Goal Zero Guide 10+ batter charger & power bank.
• Axing 4xAA power bank.
• Klarus XT11 Upgrade is peeking from the left side (my bag EDC)


----------



## pblanch

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



BloodLust said:


> Testing some of my area lighting & emergency gear.
> Streamlining most of my gear to run of AA (single cell if possible since this also makes it easier to weed out a bad cell) due to accessibility of power source, ease of charging, and safe chemistry. Good balance of output and runtime as well.
> 
> • GE Enbrighten Lantern - 350 lumens in CW but closer to neutral tint. (I like this light so much that I'm picking up the newer 600 lumen version.) 8xD but can run on 4xD at half the runtime. I have AA->D Eneloop adapters.
> • Energizer Light Fusion 2-in-1 flashlight/lamp 4xAA (Cool white but not bluish white.).
> • Energizer 2-in-1 lamp 2xAA. (The lamp LED is almost neutral but the next one I bought was cool white.)
> • UCO Leschi extendable flashlight/lantern 1xAA.
> • Nite-Ize 3-in-1 extendable flashlight/lantern/beacon 1xAA.
> • Fenix LD10 with diffuser wand (my pocket EDC) 1xAA.
> • Coleman flashlight/wand in Red & Green. 1xAAA.
> • Olight UC magnetic Ni-Mh/Li-Ion charger. (My EDC and bugout gear charger)
> • Goal Zero Nomad 7 solar panel.
> • Goal Zero Guide 10+ batter charger & power bank.
> • Axing 4xAA power bank.
> • Klarus XT11 Upgrade is peeking from the left side (my bag EDC)



Just in case you didn't know. The goal zero battery charger and power bank has an standby current drain. It will run your batteries that you leave in it flat in about 6 months. I store the batteries seperate.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



pblanch said:


> Just in case you didn't know. The goal zero battery charger and power bank has an standby current drain. It will run your batteries that you leave in it flat in about 6 months. I store the batteries seperate.


That is one thing that is truly important.... knowing what devices drain batteries sitting in storage. It is a wasted effort if when you do have an outage nothing works because of poorly designed electronic circuits in things.

Speaking of power outages there were a few around here from the tornadoes a few days ago and a storm that came through. There wasn't very many people without power though and in this muggy weather I'm glad to have AC.


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Jackery Powerbar; 20,800mAh @ 85 watts constant, just plug in your laptop or fan. Arriving next month for $200, current but limited Indiegogo preorder price is nearly half that.


----------



## KhazukX

BloodLust said:


> That's one of my options. Possibly some Fenix CL20's
> When I set up our new bedframe, I'll see what are the other possible options.
> The bedframe has long steel posts so magnetic base lights and lanterns would be another option.
> I'll see after I set it up.



I'm curious on how the set up worked out for you. Since we're in the middle of the typhoon season (I'm from the Philippines too), I'm thinking of setting up a similar system using Nitecore's LR30 but did some reading on the CL20's and it sounds like it might work out better for me given the option of using AAs.


----------



## glockboy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Why not buy the "UPS Battery Backup"(If you don't already have a few) ,add a car battery if you want longer run time, cheaper too.



StarHalo said:


> Jackery Powerbar; 20,800mAh @ 85 watts constant, just plug in your laptop or fan. Arriving next month for $200, current but limited Indiegogo preorder price is nearly half that.


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



glockboy said:


> Why not buy the "UPS Battery Backup"(If you don't already have a few) ,add a car battery if you want longer run time, cheaper too.



UPS strips are heavy SLA affairs that have generally poor battery life and reliability, this is a light and lithe Li-ion pack that's roughly the size of a coffee creamer can/1.5 lbs. It also has USB/USB-C/QuickCharge 3.0, and the pack recharges via the USB-C port for speed, plus there's an available solar panel accessory you plug directly into the charger if you'd prefer to recharge that way.


----------



## Treeguy

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

Every year at this time, when the nights start to get longer, it's time for me to stock up. As Poppy knows, that means a lot of peanut butter. Also oatmeal, canned food high in protein, and the meals-in-bags that are all over the grocery store these days and require no refrigeration. Every time I'm at the store, I buy one or two items, maybe $5 worth. If it's just me and the wife, I'm good for two-weeks at the moment. If the kids are home, half that. But that's just the emergency food, not the regular food we have on hand anyway. But I want at least a solid two-week supply for four people. This year I'm also keeping a big container of good quality protein powder on the side as well. That stuff is very handy. 

And I'm buying more Eneloops and another power bank from Anker. Maybe a USB rechargeable light as well.

The real beauty of all this is how little it actually costs to be well prepared. Keep it simple and buy stuff on sale.


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*

This couple who teaches photography has a live-streamed Youtube show every Thursday I like to watch; they live in the Northeast and were part of the widespread blackouts that took place there a couple weeks ago - but they fired up their generator, readied the studio, and *proceeded with the live show in the middle of the blackout*. They admitted to losing the food in their fridge, but short of that it's pretty amazing when non-prepper folk can out prep the preppers..


----------



## reppans

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



StarHalo said:


> This couple who teaches photography has a live-streamed Youtube show every Thursday I like to watch; they live in the Northeast and were part of the widespread blackouts that took place there a couple weeks ago - but they fired up their generator, readied the studio, and *proceeded with the live show in the middle of the blackout*. They admitted to losing the food in their fridge, but short of that it's pretty amazing when non-prepper folk can out prep the preppers..



Wonder why they lost their fridge if they had a generator? We've had three 4-5 day power outages (last being Sandy) and didn't lose our fridges (two of them) with an small RV generator.


----------



## StarHalo

*Re: Power Outage, How many Lumens, How many batteries?*



reppans said:


> Wonder why they lost their fridge if they had a generator? We've had three 4-5 day power outages (last being Sandy) and didn't lose our fridges (two of them) with an small RV generator.



They only fired the genny to do the show, a couple days after the blackout started.


----------



## terjee

I’m wondering how much was in the fridge.

I mean, if i were in their shoes, I’d probably go into conservation mode, because it would either be needed, or - much more likely - be a fun and educational experience.

Unless there was a significant amount of food in there, simply letting it go would quite possibly be a better choice than running the generator for it.

Freezer? Sure. Fridge? Probably not.


----------



## dmattaponi

Lynx_Arc said:


> In an outage you need the following:
> 1) A headlamp of 15+ lumens with a low mode of 5-30 lumens for runtime and to not totally destroy your night vision
> 2) A throwing flashlight of 80-300 lumens (or more) for checking out your "area" so you can see down the block or look around at power lines/poles.
> 3) A decent 30-150 lumen lantern to light up your "meeting" area (or several of them perhaps)
> 4) A few ~1-~10 lumen area lights just to light up things enough to get around like to the bathroom and hallways so those who don't like to carry headlights and flashlights can operate without them.
> 5) A few cheap throwaway LED lights good enough for 4+ hours of 10-30 lumens that you can give away or forget about when away from home that you can also throw junk heavy duty or alkalines in and not worry about leakage.
> 6) A small pocket LED light so if you have a battery go out or malfunctioning light you still have light.
> 
> I think the uber 500+ lumen lights in an outage end up being "idled" on low modes instead of run normally as you just don't need a lot of light in an outage if you aren't working on something. With recharging technology and vehicle batteries a trip to local stores for alkaline "refills" is unneeded. The last big outage I had 10 years ago I had about a dozen AA alkalines in stock and never used even one of them instead I had a dozen energizer 2300 nimh AAs and a rayovac 1 hour charger with a car adapter cord that I recharged about 32 batteries with (about 2 sets of 4 per day). I recharged the battery in my truck when I was out running down ice and food and visiting people that had power never needing to just run the engine in the driveway.



That's a good list. Thanks


----------



## Treeguy

The power is out here now. I'm at the coffee shop for an emergency espresso on the way to grab some chips. The power should be back on in a few hours.

No question that lots of low lumens are what is needed. Carrying my Thrunite 2xAA Archer with Eneloops right now. It's my workhorse go-to light when things are dark.

At least it's not -20. Actually it's raining. Must be freezing rain just north of here that mucked up the power.


----------



## Poppy

Hey Treeguy!
At least you didn't have to goto your stash of peanut butter, or did you!?

I'm on a crazy diet that doesn't allow peanuts, and heaven forbid, Ritz crackers! Man... of all the things I can't eat, I miss them the most.
hmmmm peanut butter on Ritz 

We had an outage a couple of weeks ago, for no apparent reason, probably someone took out a utility pole. Power was out for an hour or so. 
I was able to assess my auto on light system in our new house.. I need another one in the basement, and could use another one in the living room.

Although both sets of neighbors were home, their houses stayed in what appeared to be total darkness. I shined a light into each of their homes through their window, from across the street, to give them some light so that they could safely find their flashlights. Neither said thanks, maybe they didn't realize what was going on. At any rate, I plan to get each, one of those $10 plug into an outlet emergency power outage light.


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## Taz80

Had a power outage from about 10:30pm last night to 7:00 pm tonight. It was pretty warm last night so I didn't bother getting out the generator. This morning I broke out the generator to keep the freezer frozen and make some toast and coffee. It was still well above freezing and we were going to work so I didn't bother with the heat. Tonight it started to get cold quick. I had to do some rewiring to get the furnace powered up, I connected the generator and we had heat. If I had known that's all I had to do to get the power back on I would have done it last night. Yup, fifteen minutes after I got the furnace working the power came on. As far as lights go my milwaukee M12 series lantern with usb charger and usb charger worked out very well, also used were the CL20, CL25R Tk47, LD60, H600fw, HC30 and HL50. The CL20 is very nice the CL25R worked well but has a irritating inductor whine on every level but low. The tail light of the TK47 makes a nice lantern, the LD60 is a nice stable light for tail standing. I wasn't quite as putout by the power outage as the rest of my family:devil:


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## ArazelEternal

A situation like this is where I feel like my family and I are kinda lucky. We heat our house with wood, a wood burning stove sits in our living room. That has absolutely zero reliance on electricity so as long as we have wood (right now we are at least 3 years ahead of what we really need for the winter) we stay warm. We also have a 9000W generator that would be used to keep the chest freezer and refrigerator running in a power outage, plus a couple lights in the living room. Of course I always make sure to have a couple charged 18650's, 8 or so charged NiMH AA and AAA, and a handful of lithium and alkaline primaries just in case. Honestly though, it would have to get pretty bad for us to get down to that point.


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## kalel332

I live in Puerto Rico, I think I know a thing or two about power outages [emoji23]. When where hit by hurricane Maria our generator had recently died and couldn't get replacement parts for it. For the first 3 weeks our power consisted on 2 anker 21w solar panels and a cheap10 w. I used it to charge my power banks and with that a charged my batteries, phones (which didn't because all cell towers basically disappeared, but a I had a few movies on it), tablets (which also had movies) and lantern s. We also had 2 d cells lantern and we had a few 8 batteries packets. Every time we went out we. made sure to use every outlet on the car to charge our stuff too.
For flashlight I had :
Klarus Xt11s 
Klarus XT12GT 
Olight M3XS-UT 
Armytek Wizard Pro usb
ThruNite TH20 
Olight R50 Pro 3200lm version 
and a few led lenser headlamps had gotten on Costco
and few other light and can't remember. 

We didn't have to bother for because we live in Puerto Rico.
And we have gas stoves. and plenty of gas to last 3 months. Thankfully we where of the lucky ones that where out of electricity for only a month. Hurricane Maria was on September 20th and still a lot of people don't have electricity and some don't even have running water. If you ever bored go on YouTube and search for Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico. Also search for Yunque National Forest after Maria.


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## Taz80

I don't have enough room in my yard to store one years worth of wood never mind three, which is ok because I have no interest in heating with wood. A 9000W generator seems like a little over kill for a freezer, refrigerator and a few lights. My Honda EU3000is was running two refrigerators a charger and the furnace with no trouble, During the day it was mostly the fridges. It ran for twelve hours and used about two and a half gallons of gas. Which is one of the reasons I bought the Honda, the other is noise. The Honda is very quite compared to my old 5500w.


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## Poppy

Wednesday March 7, 2018, we got hit with, (I estimate) 14-17 inches of very heavy, wet snow.
Many Tree branches bent until they touched the ground, and many couldn't take the strain, and snapped. As trees toppled, and branches snapped, they sometimes took out power lines, and blocked roads. A LOT of people in New Jersey lost power. Fortunately, we were not among those unfortunate ones.

This past Christmas I gifted a dozen or so of those plug into the wall, flashlight/night light/ auto ON Power Failure lights. One went to my boss. Last week I noticed that it was in a closet at the office. I smiled, shrugged my shoulders, and said to myself, "I guess he didn't see the value in it." 

Yesterday, my first day back at work, he told me: he lost power for a day, and doesn't have a back-up generator.
I just chuckled, and said, I noticed that you left the "auto on power failure light" I gave you, in the closet.

I noted that when he was leaving for home, that the light was with his coat.

LOL... he's just like me... sometimes he has to learn the hard way. :thumbsup:


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## StarHalo

Power outage practice, Saturday March 24th. Join us..


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## geepondy

*Just survived a three day power outage and the light I used the most...*

We had heavy wet snow here in New England Wednesday night which resulted in a three day power outage for my neck of the woods. The light I used the most while home at night was by far and away my Fenix HL-26R headlamp. I realize a rechargeable lamp is not the best choice during a power outage but I rarely had it set above the low level except when I walked outside and around the neighborhood. Such a stalwart. I had a several year old Black Diamond pocket sized collapsible LED lantern that I used but that died suddenly on me the second night. No problems though, I just set the Fenix headlamp face up and used the side LED "wide" setting and it made a suitable makeshift replacement. After the second night of heavy use, the LED battery meter had finally dropped a level so I brought it into work with me on Saturday to recharge it but the power came back on that afternoon.

Other lights I used was my little Nitecore Tip, again will go forever and a day at levels other than high and my Olight singe A light, forget the model but has a magnet that sticks to the refrigerator.

In the early part of the decade I was an early adapter to many of the latest and greatest lights at the time but now there are so many affordable lights that offer great runtime vs output, the lights I have purchased a few years ago are still more than adequate. The Fenix HL-26R is a new 2017 purchase as I wanted a headlamp for nighttime walks and runs that could also double as general use. And it looks like I will be looking for another small LED lantern.

I have a CCrane CCradio which takes 4D batteries. I have no idea how long the batteries had been sitting in the radio but the radio also held up fine during the course of the outage.


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## Imon

*Re: Just survived a three day power outage and the light I used the most...*

Sounds rough - hope conditions weren't too bad.
Yeah, I've come to the realization after years and years of flashlight use that headlamps have become my go-to lights. I find myself using my Zebralight headlamps for virtually all flashlight needs over my other lights. Having your hands free is just too useful to forgo in a real lighting situation.

As far as lanterns go I used to use the Rayovac Sportsman lantern, which was once very popular on CPF, but I switched to the Fenix CL25R about three years ago and have been satisfied with its performance.
The CL25R isn't super bright but it is quite compact, is micro USB rechargeable, has a magnetic base, and most importantly is 18650 powered which I have been trying to standardize towards.


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## PartyPete

*Re: Just survived a three day power outage and the light I used the most...*

Thankfully it's been well over a decade since I've experienced New England type outages, which can be long, frequent and cold...however now that I've moved much further south they aren't nearly as bad; maybe one or two every few years, less than 12 hours typically. 

Headlamps really do help so I end up using my Fenix HL10 quite a bit. Any of my 18650 lights with a super low mode are nice too, but you can't beat hands free when you are focused on a task.


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## Poppy

*Re: Just survived a three day power outage and the light I used the most...*

From a man who has been around the block, I would appreciate your comments and thoughts in the power outage thread.
Poppy


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## StarHalo

*Re: Just survived a three day power outage and the light I used the most...*

The Fred Trevelamp lantern style phone diffuser; it's just a silicone form you strap onto your phone, $14:


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## flatline

*Re: Just survived a three day power outage and the light I used the most...*

I keep a stash of the Eveready 1D led flashlights. During a long power outage, I'd set them up around the house to provide ambient light. I currently use them as night lights (one "dead" AAA cell will power the light all night long at between 1 and 2 lumens), so I'm not really worried about keeping too many spare cells around. The D cell they come with would last a whole week of 8 hours a day operation.

But seriously, even if I didn't have these lights, I have enough AA and AAA lights (and enough cells for each) to go months before I run out of light.

--flatline


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## aginthelaw

If these nor’easters keep up I’m going to have to stock up on alkalines again. I used my streamlight stingers during the last outage a few weeks ago. They’ve been neglected since my retirement (8 years ago!). My wife knew better. She turned on my tn36ut on turbo so she could pack a bag. I turned it down to medium to conserve batteries and prevent a forest fire. I walk out the room and I could read in the kitchen by the light, which was back on turbo again. I compromised and put it on high until she was done. I felt bad for the abuse my light sustained and tested the batteries. They were at 4.12v. I still hid the light from her for the rest of the outage.

A flashaholic she is not but she knows a good light when she sees it


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## StarHalo

aginthelaw said:


> She turned on my tn36ut on turbo so she could pack a bag.



No li-ion lights around non-flashaholic folk; all she has to do is set it nose-down somewhere for a moment on the bed or some papers, and you've got yourself a quick and easy house fire..


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## aginthelaw

StarHalo said:


> No li-ion lights around non-flashaholic folk; all she has to do is set it nose-down somewhere for a moment on the bed or some papers, and you've got yourself a quick and easy house fire..



I’m the idiot that did that. That’s why SHE knows better


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## bykfixer

I turned off a minimag with a Yuji 5mm bi pin LED after 57 hours since it had dimmed to about half the output. I didn't try one in an ML25 (3C) or a D sized light. But suffice to say, the 5-7 focusable lumens in a minimag was plenty.


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## LeanBurn

I should test my minimag 2AAA for run-time. I am on my second set of batteries in a year, so the Yuji is a serious vampire light.


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## bykfixer

Yes it is LB. Now the bulb it came with is way brighter on new cells. Much brighter, but not very long. It dims noticeably after 15-20 minutes. The Yuji was nearly as bright 24 hours later as it was in the beginning and in true darkness put out plenty of light. Make ya squint if you aim it at yourself. 

I used a reflector from a Nite Ize kit after reading folks were having trouble drilling the minimag reflector without either shiney stuff peeling near the new hole or cracking the reflector. The Nite Ize has a hole in it large enough for the Yuji and like the Nite Ize it is still able to focus. Focus very well as a matter of fact. Pure flood (without the hole) or nice pencil lead beam (without artifacts) or a nice fat spot with lots of spill. 

If you can find one the plastic 2xAA Rayovac bi-pin Industrial is also a great candidate. Bright Star made a mini mag clone that used a bipin along with early Brinkmann minimag clone. They used a T1 type bulb that had a much larger globe than the minimag bulb so the reflector already has a 5mm hole.


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## LeanBurn

I have drilled out a couple of reflectors with no issues using a hand held drill. You just need to step up the drill bit size slowly and don't use much pressure and keep the speed reasonable. I know its a faux pas, but when I drilled I held the reflector with my fingers, that way I could better sense when the bit catches and release the reflector from my grip and allow the reflector to spin down freely, then start again. Patience is key, but has great rewards. I also drill from the back side of the reflector.


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## bykfixer

Good info LB.


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## StarHalo

Getting ready for tonight! Come turn out your lights with us!


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## Poppy

StarHalo,
Thank you once again for reminding us of Earth Hour, where we get to practice a power outage.
During Earth Hour, only my one grandson and I were home.
I told him that I was going to turn off the power and we would practice. He asked me to wait 15 minutes so he could watch the end of his show. When I killed the power, my emergency lights came on. He calmly walked to my bedroom, grabbed a flashlight and tail stood it on his dresser.
There he proceeded to get changed into his PJs, and went to bed!  

Ten minutes later he was asleep, I was essentially alone in the house, not in the dark, and I was done testing the radio. I turned the power back on.

It reminded me, that more often than not, when the power goes out, people may go to bed sooner. :tired:


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## Devildude

Been almost 2 hours with no power. I finally got to test some of my new lights. Most are cob LEDs, they seem to work well for the situation most are AA powered. Easy to use eneloops to keep it rechargeable. Soon I will break out the 8000 lumen BLFGT that I have on hand for truly dark situations.


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## StarHalo

Don't know if you guys have seen one of these, but I ran across it today; the Biolite Solarhome Off-Grid Solar Lighting System - included is a base/charger/radio/MP3 unit, three lights with their own three-mode switches (one has a motion sensor,) and a solar panel, with 18 foot cables to interconnect everything:






So basically you open the box and you have a complete self-sufficient small space electrical system; a shed, cabin, tent, camper, now has full lighting and entertainment plus charging/power for USB devices with nothing else required, $150. Very promising..


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## Devildude

After a round of thunderstorms I lost power again. Might have to look into those solar lights. I got to try out my inverter generator, it worked well. As the linemen were working on the lines I thought I would show off my 8000 lumens BLFGT with some cloud bounces away from where they were working, so as to not blind them. I also brought out my TN42 to see how it stacked up for cloud lighting.
I spent a lot of the dark ranging around with a TN12 on the second level. Not really sure on how many lumens for that level but it worked quite well for what I needed. I also had a quark neutral white on about 100 lumens that worked out well, AA for the battery. I should have broke out the Eagtac D25A with the nichia C emitter to see how it faired.


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## ZAWatchman

StarHalo said:


> Don't know if you guys have seen one of these, but I ran across it today; the Biolite Solarhome Off-Grid Solar Lighting System




Than you, that looks very helpful.


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## ZMZ67

Thought it might be worth posting some easy relatively low cost home lighting options again with Florence hitting the East coast.

I very much prefer ceiling bounce over area lanterns for indoor use as long as you have a typical white ceiling.Fairly basic 30-60 lumen flashlights give nice area lighting without necessarily burning through a lot of batteries or overheating and damaging the light. My favorite is 6V Dolphin style lights with an LED drop-in but there are many options.

There are quite a few battery powered motion sensor LED lights available now. I use the Dorcy model # 41-1076 Motion sensor Night Light for in home use.The 41-1076 provides enough light for home navigation and some tasks without producing unwanted glare. In the auto mode it lasts a long time on 2AA Energizer lithiums and it works fine with AA eneloops as well. I keep one in the kitchen all the time and it is very convenient as it turns on and off automatically negating the need to turn on the main light all the time. In a power outage these type of lights are great.They turn on when you walk into a room and preserve their batteries by turning off automatically when no motion is detected.

Pak-lites are your freind. A simple two-level design that must be close to 20 years old now, they have a proven track record of reliability and well documented long run time on low output.Not going to rival your prized light in output and beam quality but very convenient around the home. The new 4K model is especially nice offering better quality light IMO than the standard cool white model. Some people balk at the price but they are better quality than most of the lights I typically see in B&M stores and are well worth the $20-$25 price. I lost count of how many I have now but 2 or 3 would be plenty for most people.


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## kilogulf59

Thanks for the info, very helpful. Those night lights sound very useful. The Pak-Lites are an attractive device, however, I'm going totally rechargeable (using NiMH AAA & AA units) and would rather not stock 9v. 

Some personal input here; a year, or so, ago, I experienced my first power outage using a headlamp. It was magnificent! If I had to choose only one type of light for an emergency situation it would be a headlamp.

*CAUTION*: Do not use a headlamp in a security situation for obvious reasons. If it's the only light you have remove it from your head and use it like a flashlight.


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## tokaji

Sometimes we have a power outage here in Hungary for the whole night. I living in rural area/village. E2L-A with 5 lumen is more than enough to navigate around inside and outside. When taking a shower, we light one candle and that is also works surprisingly well.


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## ZMZ67

kilogulf59 said:


> Thanks for the info, very helpful. Those night lights sound very useful. The Pak-Lites are an attractive device, however, I'm going totally rechargeable (using NiMH AAA & AA units) and would rather not stock 9v.
> 
> Some personal input here; a year, or so, ago, I experienced my first power outage using a headlamp. It was magnificent! If I had to choose only one type of light for an emergency situation it would be a headlamp.
> 
> *CAUTION*: Do not use a headlamp in a security situation for obvious reasons. If it's the only light you have remove it from your head and use it like a flashlight.



I really don't like wearing headlamps but I admit they have some obvious advantages that I could have used several times in the past. I have a few around nowdays but haven't had a power outage long enough to necessitate their use recently.

I have no experience with 9V rechargables to say how they would work with Pak-lites but it probably wouldn't be worth the bother them considering how long the Pak-lite can run on primaries. You really don't need to stock much in the way of batteries for Pak-lites 2-4 extra lithium 9V would give you a lot of run time and have a long shelf life. Even if you are going all rechargeable it is a good idea to have a few lights with primaries as back ups. Lithium batteries will hold up better under extreme temperatures than NiMH,like if you were storing a light in a car.


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## kilogulf59

I don't like wearing them either, however their utility is fantastic.

I have a friend who purchased a clip-on type and uses it for night fishing, clipping it to the bill of his cap.


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## Macka17

We get them regularly here. Mainly Cyclones.
For the last 18 yrs or so.
I just use the 3.5KVA Generator I have for caravan, (1.8 kva Prior. But it didn't run Air cond).

I have plenty of lights. Normally ceiling bounce them. 18650 and 26650. if just a short blackout.

This genny runs complete home. large split air cond. Pool pumps. frifges. Everything.
No Aircond using. I plug in next door and it runs both of us. Both 2 Storey homes.

Overnight ok for torches. But we get 4 to 6 days and more, out when a decent one comes through.
Torches would drive you mad.
Check around. SOME Chinese Generators run HONDA Motors in them.
This one is used regularly in caravan and home. cost $470AUD Del and is 7 or 8 yrs old this yr.
Change oil. Change plug each yr NO STALE PETROL That's it so far.


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## kilogulf59

I don't want to turn this thread so I can take this private if the moderators feel that's appropriate.

I don't know anyone who uses a generator frequently so your commentary caught my attention Macka17.

3.5kva (2800 watts if my conversion is correct) doesn't seem like much to power an entire house, however everyone's needs are different and if it's working, then great. We're rural, have a well, everything in the joint is electric except the furnace, which is LP and the pellet stove though do both have electric blowers. I figured I'd need about 6 to 6.5kw.

Here comes the questions...



Approximately how much gasoline do you use a day?
How much do you stock?
What do you use to keep is fresh, swap it out or use a fuel stabilizer?
Do you run it, periodically, throughout the year and, if so, for how long?
How difficult (and expensive) is it to hook up to the house circuit-breaker panel?

Any further information or suggestions would be helpful and much appreciated Macka17.


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## JohnnyBravo

I've got 3 lights for power outage duty:

Nitecore EC4SW (2000 lumens)
Coast HP550 (1075 lumens) and
Coast HP450 (1400 lumens).

Plenty of charged Eneloops and 18650s around, and I just tail stand them to ceiling bounce.


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## scout24

Kilogulf- I'll try to give a bit of insight based on recent experience here. It's within code where I live to use what's called an Interlock Kit on your panel- you have to kill main power before energizing the line coming in from outside. It cost me $600 to have it professionally done, running about 60 feet of 10/3 wire and the proper receptacle on the outside of my house. This allows picking and choosing what you want to run, rather than a dedicated transfer switch and panel. I run either a Honda EU2000i or EU7000i depending on my need for 220v power. 2000i runs all day on 2.5 gallons under a light load, 7000i runs a 5 gallon can plus per day which is why I try to limit it's use. The enemy of fuel storage is ethanol pump gas. We have several stations locally that sell non-ethanol, which is good for a year plus in a good fuel can. I store 40-50 gallons in various sized cans and rotate it through my yard equipment through the year. 30 minutes of runtime every three months and dumping the oil once a year has served me well. If using them steadily, I change oil every 100 hours. (4 days.) Each unit has a bit over 1000 hours on it, the 2000 is about 20 years old, the 7000 is 3 years old. Selective running can greatly stretch fuel stores... If exposed to air, any ethanol pump gas will pull moisture in from the atmosphere regardless of additive. Non-ethanol is the way to go...

Edit-My 2000i was enough to run my pellet stove and refrigerator 24-7 after two big storms here, a week without power both times. Well pump needed 220 which is why I bought the 7000i. That, and it's QUIET! And sips fuel on ecothrottle...


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## Grijon

I don't have one because I so completely and utterly don't need one, but I've enjoyed spending many hours reading and planning and figuring and writing out pages of possibilities about generator use (LOL, I'm sure y'all understand) - so THANK YOU for the real world information about them here, especially you scout24 about the Hondas.


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## Poppy

How do you guys like those battery powered fans that run on 18V tool batteries? We're in a heat-wave and the AC is a little challenged. IF the power went out, the place would get uncomfortably warm pretty quickly.


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## scout24

Talk about timely- same question! I am sitting in the same heat, and was going to head to Home Depot this morning to see if they stock any 18v fans from Ryobi. I've got a couple of their tools and batteries.


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## AVService

Poppy said:


> How do you guys like those battery powered fans that run on 18V tool batteries? We're in a heat-wave and the AC is a little challenged. IF the power went out, the place would get uncomfortably warm pretty quickly.


I have a Milwaukee fan as I have their batteries already and it has sure come in handy for me!

I have used it on hot job sites as well as when camping and the batteries last a surprisingly long time to me.

I am tempted to try the big Ryobi too and the battery eco system for them is pretty cheap for sure which is huge as it would be another new battery system to invest in as well.

Right now I use Milwaukee and Makita Tools so having the batteries is obvious but with Ryobi I am not sure that I would try anything aside from the big fan?

I also have a few Milwaukee lights and they have been great as well.


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## bykfixer

My home in the urban jungle was plaqued with a failing climate control system that would konk out at the darndest times. It quit cooling again due to another burnt out blower fan right about the time mother nature changed to Jack Frost season. We put up with being hot for a few days with fans and a window unit. An older system with an issue plaqued blower fan motor meant the fan was hard to find at any price. US motors had a universal option so I scored one and installed it while mother nature was cooling the house down. It was that period at the end of summer where days and nights in the mid-atlantic region are perfect temperatures and humidity. 

Then it began to turn cold. Well my blower fan worked great. The heater portion…… konked out……again. Home Depot had radiators that worked well during the chilly period. Part after part, my heater would work a few days then fail. Always a different part and more expensive each time. I was working out of town and would order said part and install it on the weekend. Things would be warm and toasty for Mrs. Fixer for a day or two until. By now Thanksgiving had arrived and the house was kept warm via three tower heaters from Home Depot. The final straw was when the thermo-coupler failed and the new one did not make things better. The heat exchange kept throwing a code in the system. Turns out a mouse had made a home inside the exhaust manifold. While removing the nest a rusty spot developed a hole. That was that. Time to replace this thing. 

Mr. Contractor installed a new system and mother nature played another joke on us. Power outage. Yup, 6 hours later we had no power thanks to a mini blizzard. 12 hours later the house was in the 60's… low 60's. Next morning in the low 50's. By noon in the 40's. We have gas water heat and a gas stove. I conceived a cacoon to keep Mrs. Fixers chamleon alive next to a pot of simmering water. My company had just issued me a new 4x4 truck so navigating to Home Depot in 3 feet of snow was easy. I picked up a Honda 2200i generator and while hooking it up the power came back on. 

We used 3 Maglite ML series flashlights on eco mode to ceiling bounce enough light in 3 locations to navigate the house and provide enough light to read by in the evenings until climbing into a bed covered with about a foot thick of blankets and a down comforter. I chose the 2200i from experience at work knowing it sips fuel, runs real quiet and can power a 600 watt heater or 5000btu window unit. We don't rely on the refrigerator/freezer to stay alive but think of it as a modern convenience instead. A week without power means we cut into the stash of food stock meant for such times. I learned a long time ago how to live like the old days before the all night generator was invented. 

2 weeks in an all electric apartment without power in a town where I knew nobody was a valuable lesson. Back then an elderly gentleman with no family to turn to was the only person besides me in the whole complex who stayed. At the time I did not know that. Then one day we met in the laundry room where we ended up sharing stories and ideas. He mentioned things learned from his youth like down comforters and radiational heating while the sun wasavailable. I mentioned things available in modern times like cooler in the shade keeps frozen things frozen and aa powered lanterns when every C and D battery is gone from store shelves. Turns out we both lived off of mostly canned tuna and potato chips. 

In one hurricane event Mrs. Fixer and I were set with everything but cigarettes. That was the year I learned to keep enough cash on hand for a weeks groceries. Stores were open but computers were down so plastic money was no good. We kept the all electric neighbors coffee'd up thanks to a gas stove and thermos's during that one. And shared LED flashlights. Before I became a member here I had a few extra multi-LED flood lights for lighting up the engine bay of my vehicles and a stockpile of batteries. But none of my neighbors smoked. So we scrounged up enough coins to acquire a few packs of smokes to last until the world returned to normal in our little bubble. Now that I vape that is no longer an issue either. 

But the Maglite 300 lights provide plenty of useable light for a bunch of hours if the power goes out again.


----------



## kilogulf59

scout24 said:


> Kilogulf- I'll try to give a bit of insight based on recent experience here. It's within code where I live to use what's called an Interlock Kit on your panel- you have to kill main power before energizing the line coming in from outside. It cost me $600 to have it professionally done, running about 60 feet of 10/3 wire and the proper receptacle on the outside of my house. This allows picking and choosing what you want to run, rather than a dedicated transfer switch and panel. I run either a Honda EU2000i or EU7000i depending on my need for 220v power. 2000i runs all day on 2.5 gallons under a light load, 7000i runs a 5 gallon can plus per day which is why I try to limit it's use. The enemy of fuel storage is ethanol pump gas. We have several stations locally that sell non-ethanol, which is good for a year plus in a good fuel can. I store 40-50 gallons in various sized cans and rotate it through my yard equipment through the year. 30 minutes of runtime every three months and dumping the oil once a year has served me well. If using them steadily, I change oil every 100 hours. (4 days.) Each unit has a bit over 1000 hours on it, the 2000 is about 20 years old, the 7000 is 3 years old. Selective running can greatly stretch fuel stores... If exposed to air, any ethanol pump gas will pull moisture in from the atmosphere regardless of additive. Non-ethanol is the way to go...
> 
> Edit-My 2000i was enough to run my pellet stove and refrigerator 24-7 after two big storms here, a week without power both times. Well pump needed 220 which is why I bought the 7000i. That, and it's QUIET! And sips fuel on ecothrottle...



Scout24, I just noticed your reply (above) to my query of 09-18-2018 post #1264 and I apologize for not responding sooner and for not thanking you for all the in-depth advice. I assure you no slight or insult was intended. Thank you very much sir.


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## AVService

I also can "Bug-Out" to the driveway as needed and I will just say that it is a lot easier to keep comfortable in this than in the house when I need to!

My Honda 2000 can easily do everything that I need here and will run the AC if needed and I have Propane for Heat so am mostly self-contained with this.

I have 150ah of battery on board and the Hinda charges these pretty quickly too.

Water is about 6 feet away on the side of the house for Summer use and I can live in this indefinitely by myself if I need to.

It also can make a terrible situation actually almost a fun adventure for me but of course YMMV as they say.


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## bykfixer

Nice. 
Me want one of those AV.


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## scout24

Kilogulf- No worries! I hope some of it was at least topical...  AVService- What size AC unit do you have on your camper?


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## AVService

scout24 said:


> Kilogulf- No worries! I hope some of it was at least topical...  AVService- What size AC unit do you have on your camper?


Mine has Polar Cub 9k which I don't think is made anymore?
This was the sweet spot for the Casita size trailers because it will start from the 2k genset easily unlike the more common 13k units which are more than I really need anyway.
It is also smaller and lighter weight than the bigger models.

Its great in use too the cold air just falls down on top of me while sleeping!

There is also a mod to only keep the fan running when the thermostat calls for cooling which I need to make and it should run even more efficiently than now.


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## scout24

Good info. I'm semi-looking for a second small rooftop unit for our camper that will run off the eu2000i if needed. It won't fire up the 13.5k that's on there now. I'm a firm believer in redundant redundancy even when it drives my Wife crazy...


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## jfak7670

I always have problem of power outages during winter storms, so I had to buy a genny to survive such freaks of nature. Decided to purchase a dual-fuel one for its versatility. Now I feel safe when the lights go off. :rock:


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## Poppy

Yes, dual fuel gennies are nice. During superstorm Sandy it was noted that although there were long lines and often rationing of gasoline, LP gas was much more easily obtained.


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## Poppy

Hurricane/Tropical storm Isaias swept through the East coast Tuesday and Wednesday this week, and left nearly 3 million homes without power. I think this is second only to Hurricane/Super Storm Sandy, regarding power outages.

https://weather.com/storms/hurrican...cts-power-outages-flooding-carolina-northeast

I just moved, and don't have a backup generator. Although we didn't lose power, as many in my community did, lighting would have been my least concern. Well yeah, I am amply prepared for loss of light. BUT, we have been having a sustained heat wave, temps in the 90's with high humidity, and the loss of AC would have been devastating. 

I do have a Ryobi battery operated fan, and half a dozen batteries, and a car charger for the batteries, and although that would have helped a lot, I would not have been a happy camper. I'm sure that generators are currently in short supply, so when things calm down, I'll pick one up.

I'd love to get one of those Honda 2K inverter generators, because they are so quiet. But I think they only put out 110V and my AC is certainly 220V.


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## Katherine Alicia

without using my solar panel for charging and just using my existing flashlights as they are right now, I could keep us going for a month quite easily (I have about 70 lights all with batteries and fully charged always). with my solar panel I could keep us going forever. I have a generator as well but I would never use it in SHTF scenario because it makes too much noise and would attract too much attention.
I have over 1000 wax candles as well, not to mention several oil/parafin lamps and heaters (and a couple of gallons of parafin), a couple of gas lanterns with a case of 24 gas tanks. 

if it makes Light, I`v probably got one somewhere! LOL


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## CSG

I live in rural Idaho. When I first moved here, outages were too common. Now, not so much. We have a 4 Streamlight Seige AA lanterns which use three AA batteries (we use rechargeables), have an assortment of flashlights, and a Honda 2000g generator. We keep spare food, water, etc. I have battery back-up for the wi-fi/router (good for 6-8 hours). We also have the usual stash of candles. It seems our occasional outages are consistent at no more than three hours. We also own a house in town about 15 miles away where power almost never is out at the same time so there's that as an alternative.


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## thermal guy

Nothing like having a backup house 😁


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## kilogulf59

CSG said:


> I have battery back-up for the wi-fi/router (good for 6-8 hours).


I never thought of that. I didn't even know such a critter existed. Do you have more info on this and any recommendations? Perhaps a separate thread would be in order?


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## Lynx_Arc

kilogulf59 said:


> I never thought of that. I didn't even know such a critter existed. Do you have more info on this and any recommendations? Perhaps a separate thread would be in order?


I have one that I bought from a thrift store for a few dollars that I'm not sure if it works or not since it uses a lead acid battery that was dead. It is a 12v setup with a DC plug on the end of the cord you plug it into the router/modem and plug it into the wall using it like a UPS.
IMO unless you can buy one of these cheaper than a small UPS I would rather have a small UPS instead as you could plug other things into it perhaps a radio or something.


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## CSG

kilogulf59 said:


> I never thought of that. I didn't even know such a critter existed. Do you have more info on this and any recommendations? Perhaps a separate thread would be in order?



I bought it at Costco. Called a CyberPower uninterruptible power supply. Can't tell you much other than it works and also acts as a surge protector.


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## Katherine Alicia

I have a UPS in the studio, it helps keep line noise down (better for recording) and lsats long enough to finish a recording is the power ever went out during a session, it`s 24V (2 12v SLA) and runs a good half hour (if I`m not using the PA gear).
The wi-fi router I have doesn`t have mains in directly but uses a wall wart (not sure of the voltage) but it would be a fairly trivial issue to make a battery backed PSU for it and not even have to think about inverter circuitry!


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## Lynx_Arc

I just looked at mine.... Belkin battery backup unit Rev B. It uses a 12V 7A battery (standard size). It seems to have good ratings on Amazon but I don't think you can buy it any more new and any UPS older than a few years will in the near future most likely have the battery go bad on it and SLAs aren't cheap to buy locally about $25-$40 for one. I used to buy them for $10 each but then the lead mine owners did an OPEC type thing and the price of lead went way up and has never come down.


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## CSG

Lynx_Arc said:


> I just looked at mine.... Belkin battery backup unit Rev B. It uses a 12V 7A battery (standard size). It seems to have good ratings on Amazon but I don't think you can buy it any more new and any UPS older than a few years will in the near future most likely have the battery go bad on it and SLAs aren't cheap to buy locally about $25-$40 for one. I used to buy them for $10 each but then the lead mine owners did an OPEC type thing and the price of lead went way up and has never come down.



My unit is at least 6-7 years old and seems to be working fine, so far. As we both work at home, it's been a lifesaver. While we have cell phones with hotspot capability, we're pretty remote and rely on wi-fi calling for solid connections. Point being, I need a battery back-up other than running an extension cord from my Honda 2000 into the house.


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## Lynx_Arc

CSG said:


> My unit is at least 6-7 years old and seems to be working fine, so far. As we both work at home, it's been a lifesaver. While we have cell phones with hotspot capability, we're pretty remote and rely on wi-fi calling for solid connections. Point being, I need a battery back-up other than running an extension cord from my Honda 2000 into the house.


Good quality SLAs can last 10-12 years but no guarantee they will last 5 even. The one thing that is good about any UPS that uses 1 battery is in an emergency you could remove a large battery from a vehicle or boat and connect it in place of the small SLA.


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## CSG

Lynx_Arc said:


> Good quality SLAs can last 10-12 years but no guarantee they will last 5 even. The one thing that is good about any UPS that uses 1 battery is in an emergency you could remove a large battery from a vehicle or boat and connect it in place of the small SLA.




I'd rather run my generator.


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## Lynx_Arc

CSG said:


> I'd rather run my generator.


For smaller loads a lead acid battery is cheaper than a lot of gas to keep a generator running. You can use the battery for hours and not have to run the generator all the time.


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## Poppy

During hurricane/Super storm Sandy, it took a LOT of gas to keep my gennie running. Yes it is true that those little 2K Hondas sip fuel, but they do need to be fed.


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## Lynx_Arc

Poppy said:


> During hurricane/Super storm Sandy, it took a LOT of gas to keep my gennie running. Yes it is true that those little 2K Hondas sip fuel, but they do need to be fed.


We don't get hurricanes here other than a football team but I did get a 12v tv set and 12v blu-ray player so I can run them off a car battery if needed.


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## kilogulf59

CSG said:


> I bought it at Costco. Called a CyberPower uninterruptible power supply. Can't tell you much other than it works and also acts as a surge protector.


Thanks you. Much obliged.


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## Poppy

In the book by Cody Lundin ( 1/2 of the dual survivor team) titled:
98.6 degrees The Art Of Keeping Your *** alive.

Spoke of creating a micro climate in one room rather than try to heat the entire house/apartment, or car for that matter.

One of the many things he suggested is to use those cheap mylar emergency blankets to block sunlight, and reflect heat back outdoors, during the summer, OR to reflect heat back into the house in the winter.


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## jtr1962

Having a gas stove helped somewhat during the four days we were without power after Sandy. I kept two big pots of water boiling all the time, refilling as needed. This humidified the air, making it feel warmer, and kept the house in the 60s at least when it was 30s outside. Not sure how great that would work if it's 0°F outside.

The best longer term solution is better insulation, which reduces heating and cooling bills anyway. Our house naturally holds 15° to 20° F above the outdoor temperature. So we really don't need heat until it gets into the high 40s/low 50s. I'd like to increase that delta to 40 degrees or more if possible so we don't need heat until it gets under about 30. Problem is retrofitting a 1950s house with better insulation is problematic. The new windows we got in 1994 helped a lot but we still lose quite a bit through the walls. I would imagine today's windows would do even better.

EDIT: Boredom is as much a problem as keeping warm when the power is out. We use electricity in literally every facet of our lives. I was bored out of my mind during those four days. In fact, since I know I can get surplus batteries really cheap, like for $100 or less per kW-hr, online, I might look into getting an inverter and having a whole house battery backup. That will let me keep the central heat on, although I would need a huge battery bank to keep the AC going in the summers for any length of time. Climate control is really the single biggest use of energy anyway. Everything else we need probably uses well under 1 kW, with the fridge being the biggest user at maybe 50 kW-hr/month. I noticed on days when we need no heating or cooling our base power use is around 8 or 9 kW-hr per day. I could probably cut that to under 5 in an emergency. 20 kW-hrs of batteries would be good for up to 4 days then. I don't think we've ever had the power out longer than that. With solar panels and battery back up it should be possible to ride through power outages of any length.


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## Shooter21

We lost power for 3 weeks during hurricane Sandy. Luckily we had a generator otherwise I would have gone crazy. I have lots of batteries and lights so lighting wasn’t an issue.


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## Lynx_Arc

I just got notified by the power company here that they are going to start rolling outages for about 2 hours as the grid cannot keep up with the demand due to record cold in this region. I hope it happens mid day instead of late at night when it starts to drop down into the single digits again as I don't have any working heating source that doesn't require power. When I get my own house I will make sure and put in either a generator system and switch so I can power the house when we have a major outage and/or separate heaters that don't need fans that can keep the house warm enough to not need to leave. I am prepared for everything in an outage but extreme cold weather that requires massive heating.


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## kilogulf59

Lynx_Arc said:


> I am prepared for everything in an outage but extreme cold weather that requires massive heating.


We live in rural west-central Wisconsin. It was 19° below zero yesterday morning and 22° below the other day. We've gotten into the 30's below in the past. We go for several weeks, at this time of the year, with below zero lows (sometimes highs too). We have an LP furnace, a pellet stove (in the finished basement where the bedrooms are, which gets it warm down there and helps (can) heat the entire house), and a wood burning fireplace on the first floor. In the almost 16-years that we've lived here we rarely get power outages however, when we do, they never last for more than a few hours. If we did get frequent and/or long term outages, I'd get a battery backup for the pellet stove and consider a fancy generator hookup. My advice is, if you live in a cold climate, have at least two sources of heat, one which doesn't require electricity, and a seasons worth of fuel for it. A wood burning stove is a great backup and much more efficient than a fireplace. Many folks up here have them and use them as a primary heat source with their furnace as the backup (free firewood in the North Woods). We keep enough pellets (5-tons) on hand to heat the whole house with all winter if need be. Additionally, we stock several cords of wood. We like a fire in the evenings anyway and it saves on LP and NOTHING beats a wood fire for warmth.


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## Lynx_Arc

kilogulf59 said:


> We live in rural west-central Wisconsin. It was 19° below zero yesterday morning and 22° below the other day. We've gotten into the 30's below in the past. We go for several weeks, at this time of the year, with below zero lows (sometimes highs too). We have an LP furnace, a pellet stove (in the finished basement where the bedrooms are, which gets it warm down there and helps (can) heat the entire house), and a wood burning fireplace on the first floor. In the almost 16-years that we've lived here we rarely get power outages however, when we do, they never last for more than a few hours. If we did get frequent and/or long term outages, I'd get a battery backup for the pellet stove and consider a fancy generator hookup. My advice is, if you live in a cold climate, have at least two sources of heat, one which doesn't require electricity, and a seasons worth of fuel for it. A wood burning stove is a great backup and much more efficient than a fireplace. Many folks up here have them and use them as a primary heat source with their furnace as the backup (free firewood in the North Woods). We keep enough pellets (5-tons) on hand to heat the whole house with all winter if need be. Additionally, we stock several cords of wood. We like a fire in the evenings anyway and it saves on LP and NOTHING beats a wood fire for warmth.



We rarely get even in the single digits in winter here and only ice storms have upset the power for more than half a day so the cold is a lot less an issue but temps here are I think about 25-30 degrees below average this week. In the city few burn wood these days as natural gas is cheap and plentiful our state produces it. The power grid however is interconnected to Texas and I think Missouri at the least and Texas is gobbling up a lot of power in this outage I'm not sure they have natural gas to heat with if it is electric heat pumps like many smaller cities and suburbs the electric consumption skyrockets. I'm not going to like my gas bill next month probably be over $100 more than usual this time of year even though I've dropped the thermostat to 62 I had to raise it up higher as the pipes started freezing I hope the extra heat will make a difference but I'm thinking that even though I have the vents shut off in the foundation the cold is still slowly sneaking in and is like an ice box that may take days to thaw out. 
This time of year it is usually about 18 to 25 at night and when it snows often hovers close to freezing such that in the daytime the snow melts some and a few days after the snow all the streets are clear. I expect by Tuesday next week the only snow left will be piles of it in the shade as we will be around 60 degrees and around freezing at night.


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## Poppy

Regarding freezing pipes:
The back door to my father's basement was not tightly sealed, and cold air seeped in at where a water pipe was routed. After it froze, we discovered it and sealed it up.
I had a bathroom in my house, and the plumbing for it was on an external non-insulated wall. Whenever the temps dropped to 16F or less, I would let the water drip, and I never had a problem. Then one year, I punched a hole in the wall, and filled it with foam sealant. No more problem.

Letting the water drip really helps.


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## Burgess

Today is National Battery Day !

https://nationaldaycalendar.com/nat...medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark


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## xxo

kilogulf59 said:


> We live in rural west-central Wisconsin. It was 19° below zero yesterday morning and 22° below the other day. We've gotten into the 30's below in the past. We go for several weeks, at this time of the year, with below zero lows (sometimes highs too). We have an LP furnace, a pellet stove (in the finished basement where the bedrooms are, which gets it warm down there and helps (can) heat the entire house), and a wood burning fireplace on the first floor. In the almost 16-years that we've lived here we rarely get power outages however, when we do, they never last for more than a few hours. If we did get frequent and/or long term outages, I'd get a battery backup for the pellet stove and consider a fancy generator hookup. My advice is, if you live in a cold climate, have at least two sources of heat, one which doesn't require electricity, and a seasons worth of fuel for it. A wood burning stove is a great backup and much more efficient than a fireplace. Many folks up here have them and use them as a primary heat source with their furnace as the backup (free firewood in the North Woods). We keep enough pellets (5-tons) on hand to heat the whole house with all winter if need be. Additionally, we stock several cords of wood. We like a fire in the evenings anyway and it saves on LP and NOTHING beats a wood fire for warmth.



Wood stoves are great, much better than a fireplace with a open front, which is only good for around 20 degrees; after that a fireplace will suck in cold air faster than it will heat it. 

One thing that most people who have stoves don't realize is how much wood you burn if your stove is your only heat source. I used to heat a house exclusively with wood for many years and I would go through at least 10 cords of oak (oak gives off much more heat than most other types of wood) for a small house in a mild winter. The stove I had was an old one and not super efficient but you are going to go through a bunch of wood in a cold winter even with the best stove – the good thing is firewood warms you twice, once when you cut it, split it and stack it and again when you burn it.


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## Poppy

Sunday evening we had a power outage, fortunately it occurred just after dinner came off of the stove.

Torrential rain, thunder and lightening came through for about an hour, and we were without power for about 1 1/2 hours. I am visiting at my Father, and Sister in Florida, and their house is all electric. Earlier that day, I was considering getting them a small inverter generator, but decided against it. They are waiting for a particular model in a particular adult community to become available, and they are going to move. Therefore they want to eliminate things, not buy more things before the move. Also, it is possible that the new house may have a whole house generator already installed. 

At any rate, I had recently bought a pair of (GE 3-in-1 LED Power Failure Night Light, Plug-In, Rechargeable, Light Sensing, Auto On/Off) power failure lights and placed one in the center of the house, and the other in the garage. 30 lumens each throw enough light to navigate without stumbling on anything, even before your eyes get dark adjusted.

We had company who were pleasantly surprised at the auto-on feature.
Two more are arriving today (so says prime).

It is tough when you have two homes, in that you may need duplicates of many things. Up North they have natural gas, barbeque grills, and at least one camping stove. Down South, all electric, and no propane stoves or cook tops. Not all tools travel with them, so many are missing down south, and the Ryobi 18V lantern that will run on the 18V rechargeables, and can be a power bank for cell phones, was left up north.

I'm glad that I had this little experience with them, so that when they do finally get to make the move, I can help them be better prepared.


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## RamBull

I just the new version of Lumintop BLF LT1 in black. Such a wonderful lantern with great battery life and ability to adjust brightness and temp. Great late Father’s Day gift for my pops. [emoji106][emoji106]


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## fuyume

Two adults, two children? That’s easy. I’ll take four Fenix HM23 headlamps and four Fenix E12 flashlights. That’s a total of 8xAA, and on low mode, the HM23 is rated to go 100 hours @ 4 lumens, while the E12 is rated to go 70 hours @ 5 lumens. 

That means even if I conservatively allocate one battery per week per device, I won’t need to replace or recharge any batteries, at all, for a power outage of 5-7 days (which, since today is the anniversary of the 2012 superderecho storm that knocked down millions of tress in my county (at the time, Atlantic County, NJ, US, where Hurricane Irene made landfall the year before and Hurricane Sandy would make landfall in virtually the exact same spot just a couple of months later) and left us without power for a week, I know very well can easily happen). But of course I will still have a spare battery allocated for each, anyway, because I always do.

What I actually used during that time was my Leatherman Serac S3, which is rated to go 36 hours @ 7 lumens on 1xCR123A, and probably a Petzl Tikka or Zipka.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2012_North_American_derecho


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## fuyume

During Hurricane Irene and the June 2012 superderecho power outages, I was living with my mother after my divorce, and she was an on-call supervisor for a home nursing company. My mother uses a power wheelchair, so I used a couple of old U1 batteries that were no longer useful for her chair, but still had some life in them. I hooked up a couple of 12 V lighter outlets to charge our cell phones and also used the batteries to power my Yaesu FT-100 ham radio set to listen for NOAA Weather Radio updates. 

My stepfather was able to purchase a generator in Delaware, so we were able to keep the refrigerator and chest freezer running, at least.


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## Silly Rabbit

Bump so easy for me to find


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## KITROBASKIN

Hey Silly Rabbit. You found a useful thread. I wanted to see what you wrote. Perhaps next time, at the top of the thread, sort of on the right above the posts, is a clickable function that will put it on your Watch list. This is what I do when I have nothing to say but want to be able to get back at it or read what other members have written.
Best to you


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## Silly Rabbit

Thank you KITROBASKIN, the watch list is now clicked, following. I too think this thread is very useful, and very important.


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## Repsol600rr

Well since this is here might as well add a couple cents worth again. I have plenty of lights and batteries for whatever duration of normal power outage. My primary concern isn't that, but rather the sump pump and the fridge. The last outage we had was 2 full days because of some strong storms(which toppled a large tree in the back yard smoking the upstairs ac unit). I had been experimenting with solar and inverters and such so I had a 100ish amp hour deep cycle battery and a 1500 watt inverter already charged with a 100 watt panel on the roof. I normally use this battery to power a 12 volt fridge that I keep near the couch and the inverter was specifically to power stuff if i had no "shore power". So I decided to see if they could power the sump pump. And it did. So I hooked the sump pump and fridge up to the inverter and let it run. The battery did manage to last the night. So the next morning when the power wasn't back and I knew it was gonna be a while still based on reports of the progress they were making I went a bought another of the deep cycle batteries. I am a volunteer firefighter and the station has a natural gas generator so had power. I brought the battery that had been running overnight to the station to charge and hooked up my charger. So began the rotation. When battery 2 died I brought it to charge and the other battery kept the sump from overflowing and the fridge from getting too warm. After it was over I realized I had a generator buried under a bunch of crap in the garage. My system now is the 2 batteries in parallel running the loads and 55 amp rv converter charger to charge them off the generator. This should allow me to run the generator when I get home from work till I'm ready to go to bed and then shut it off and have power for the essentials until I get home from work the next day. No hauling stuff. Eventually I want more solar and a lifepo4 battery for this position but it works fine as is for my needs. I have ethanol free premium (20+ gallons) on hand and it's about an hour total drive to get more should the outage last a real long time.


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## Repsol600rr

Also a few days ago we were getting brown outs which lasted just long enough to flicker the lights and keep shutting the TV off which got annoying. So I plugged the TV and internet and such into the inverter and had them run smoothly while the power flickered every now and again for the next hour or 2. So even without total power failure the system still came in handy.


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## Sabrewulf

I've got a dozen flashlights, small to large.
Extra batteries, chargers, and means to charge the batteries in a blackout.
Jackery 500 and ecoflow delta2, 100 watt solar panel, and 220 watt solar panel. Both can be charged via DC (jeep).
I would last indefinitely with my 320 watts of solar, I would have way more than I need.


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## KITROBASKIN

Sabrewulf!
How long have you had your Ecoflow Delta 2? (it has LFP batteries)
Tell us about it.


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## Sabrewulf

KITROBASKIN said:


> Sabrewulf!
> How long have you had your Ecoflow Delta 2? (it has LFP batteries)
> Tell us about it.


I've had it about 2 months.
I use it mainly for camping, to power my fridge but also serves as backup power in case power goes out.
Jackery 500 is back up to my back up.
I love the delta2, I can use the app to do many functions, it's wifi and bluetooth, a very handy feature.


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## KITROBASKIN

So nice, and you are able to connect more LFP battery capacity if you wish. How would you describe the sound of the fan in a quiet area? Noticeable but not really distracting? Quite loud?


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## Sabrewulf

KITROBASKIN said:


> So nice, and you are able to connect more LFP battery capacity if you wish. How would you describe the sound of the fan in a quiet area? Noticeable but not really distracting? Quite loud?


Yes I can connect more batteries to expand the watts, which I may in the future. For now this is more than plenty for my needs.
I keep it in the back of my jeep, and have holiday lights on my roofrack, powered by the delta. I can turn on the lights with my ecoflow app. I can turn off my fridge if I wanted.

The fan is not loud, but it is not quiet, hard to explain. In no way is it bothersome.


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