# How many lumens?



## ADDICTED2LITE (Jun 19, 2007)

How many lumens does one of those cheap 1 million cp rechargeable spotlights put out? :thinking: I was just wondering how it compares to the M6 and ROP. Its hard to describe how bright a light is when you tell somebody its 800 lumens, and they go, thats not much, I have a blah,blah 1 million cp rechargeable light right here. They probably don't realize how bad the runtime is and how enormously heavy that thing is. I had one and after 20 mins it looked like a yellow 2D flashlight with a 10lb battery.


----------



## defusion (Jun 19, 2007)

can't compare them like that.
candlepower is the brightest spot in a beam.
lumens is total output.


----------



## ADDICTED2LITE (Jun 19, 2007)

How about a candlepower measurement from the ROP and M6? I know they are different measurements, I just thought someone had a way to measure them on the same scale.


----------



## defusion (Jun 19, 2007)

i suggest looking into lux readings. they can be more easily measured and compared. it measures how much light falls onto a surface at a certain distance from the light.
http://www.flashlightreviews.com does this for every of the tested lights

basically if the light can focus it's light onto one spot, lux readouts will be higher, but if you look at the shape of the beam, combined with the lux readouts, you have a fair assessment of the lights capabilities.


----------



## robm (Jun 19, 2007)

The 'x' million candlepower on most 'value' spotlights is based on made up 'marketing' numbers.

However to give you an idea of lux at 1m beam intensity (throw) and relative output (based on my rough measurements):

Generic 1 million candlepower spotlight - 9600 lux at 1m (approx 100m throw), 150 approx 'lumens' output.
Terralux 6EX in Mag2D w/6AA - 10,000 lux (~100m), 110 'lumens'
ROP low - MOP reflector - 12000 lux (~110m), 250 'lumens'
ROP high - FM 2.5 Reflector - 45000 lux (~210m), 600 'lumens'
Power-on-Board 35w HID  - 500000* lux (~700m), 3000 'lumens'

*measured at 4m and converted to 1m equivalent


----------



## mdocod (Jun 19, 2007)

the way I look at it..

They are under-driven off-road automobile bulbs..

most of the 1mcp versions have a 55W H3 lamp (IIRC)...

The M6 HOLA is more like a 33W lamp...

The difference is, the M6 lamp is being driven good and hard, to the tune of about 25-28 lumen/watt or so, and about 3300+K, so you get a nice high white-point, and about 600+ "true" torch lumens.

The "1mcp" 55W automobile light is being under-driven to the tune of more like 45W.... since it was originally designed with the alternator voltage in mind. the bulb sees something like 11.5V, instead of the 13.5V or so it ought to see to be decent, the result is a reduced white point (~3050K), reduced efficiency, (~20lm/w), and about 500-700 torch lumens.

So actually... yes... in terms of raw lumens, there are quite a few 1MCP spotlights that are in the same category as an M6... But obviously, the M6 is a purpose built product, with a much more useful beam pattern and color temperature than any $10 spotlight.


----------



## ADDICTED2LITE (Jun 19, 2007)

Well said mdocod. Thats what I was looking for.


----------



## robm (Jun 19, 2007)

robm said:


> The 'x' million candlepower on most 'value' spotlights is based on made up 'marketing' numbers.
> 
> However to give you an idea of lux at 1m beam intensity (throw) and relative output (based on my rough measurements):
> 
> ...



Doh - forgot about my Thor! 

Thor-X - low - 16000* lux (130m), 350 'lumens'
Thor-X - high - 270000* lux (520m), 1500 'lumens'

So if you can, get a Thor or a Power on Board (Sam's club) on close-out, then compare to a 'cheapo' rechargeable


----------



## mdocod (Jun 19, 2007)

robm

lux doesn't not convert to lumens like that, those lumen numbers are totally out of wack.. the thor on low is actually fairly close in total lumens to a thor on high. Both situations are in the ballpark of about 1500 torch lumens. One is just more focused than the other.

The generic 1MCP spot you tested, and came up with 150 lumens for, is probably just because it has a wider beam full of artifacts... It's closer to 500 lumens for most of em..

If you want to be able to test overall output with a lux meter and find total lumens from applying ratio formulas.. you need to change your test method..

stand the lights up pointed at the ceiling in a small room, like a bathroom, leaving the lux meter on the counter of the bathroom to pickup the overall lighting that the room is getting... do that with all the lights and compare. This is a much better way to approximate lumen comparisons between lights.


----------



## ugrey (Jun 20, 2007)

Addicted, This is the same question I had before I bought my M6. I already had a 1 million CP spotlight, so I wanted to know what I was getting in the M6. They put out a very similar amount of light to my eyes. The spotlight beam is narrower and very ringy. The M6 (500 lumen bulb) may not throw quite as far, maybe 10% less. The M6 has a wider, smooth "SureFire" like beam. I much prefer to grab my M6, if possible. The M6 will fit in your back pocket, unlike the spotlight. Also the primary batteries in the M6 will not self discharge like the spotlight's rechargeable. When the M6 batteries die, just pop 6 more in. When the spotlight's battery dies, it is time to recharge for several hours, if the power has not gone out. In the last 10 years I have lived through two 10 plus day periods of no power. (wind storm+ice storm) The M6 will make all the rest of your non rechargeable lights look dim.


----------



## ADDICTED2LITE (Jun 20, 2007)

Sounds like I need to start stockpiling batteries


----------



## jnj1033 (Jun 20, 2007)

My Vector 2mcp claims about 1300 lumens. It's probably an inflated number, but I wouldn't be surprise if it was close to 1000. I bought it as a pizza delivery light, but it's too bright, and the hotspot on a house tends to blow my dark adaptation.

Knowing that you can't convert candlepower to lumens, I would still estimated (pulling numbers out of my rectum) about 500 lumens for a decent 1mcp and 1000 for a decent 2mcp.

One of these days I'll buy a light meter. Maybe after I recover from the P2D I just ordered.


----------



## PhantomPhoton (Jun 20, 2007)

jnj1033 said:


> My Vector 2mcp claims about 1300 lumens. It's probably an inflated number, but I wouldn't be surprise if it was close to 1000.




While I can not test this, I'd be willing to bet that this is 1300 emitter lumens. (and only that high for the first few minutes of the charge)
Realistic torch lumens would be under 800 lumens. And even that is being optomistic because the Vectors I have don't ahve precision reflectors and anti-reflective glass in them.


----------



## robm (Jun 20, 2007)

mdocod said:


> robm
> 
> lux doesn't not convert to lumens like that, those lumen numbers are totally out of wack.. the thor on low is actually fairly close in total lumens to a thor on high. Both situations are in the ballpark of about 1500 torch lumens. One is just more focused than the other.
> 
> ...



I know the difference between lux and lumens :nana:

The lux and 'lumens' measurements are from different tests. Normally I 'measure' output with a Quickbeam style lightbox - however these are obviously too big for the hole, so a ceiling bounce test was used.

I can give you my full testing process if you like? 

As for the unexpected light output for the rechargeable and the Thor on low - these number confirm my observations - the rechargeable light is poor (and yellowy) - not all 1MCP spotlights are created equal. I will test again though following a clean of the battery contacts, and a recharge (doesn't get much use this one). And my Thor (which may be different to yours) has much less output on the 5 million candlepower (low) to the 10 million (high). Again I will test this again, after leaving the bulb 'hotplate-thingy' to warm up for longer.

Would you agree that the 6EX, ROP low, high and the Power-on-board figures are 'reasonable' (and so the testing process internally consistent)?

Rant over


----------



## mattchase (Jun 20, 2007)

I did some measurements of my Dorcy 1mcp spotlight and ROP HI, and the ROP came out similar to robm's measurements for peak lux. My ROP has a FM 2.5" throw head and is running on 6 AA Eneloops. Our lumens measurements differ though, Robm how did you go about figuring your lumens? I used the overall output from milk carton test and equations per flashlightreviews.com.

Dorcy 1mcp - 23,000 peak lux from the hotspot **see below**
- 15,000 peak overall (15,000 / 100 x 1.62 = 243 lumens) **
ROP HI - 43,900 peak lux from the hotspot
- 40,000 peak overall (40,000 / 100 x 1.62 = 648 lumens)

**Because the Dorcy doesn't project a round hotspot, it was hard to get a good peak reading on it. From eyeball beam comparisons, I would say it may be 25%-30% brighter than the peak lux measurement above indicates. I also tried doing overall measurements with the Dorcy but my milk carton tester isn't big enough to get accurate measurements. The overall reading I was able to get is probably 30%-40% less than it's actual brightness.

Perhaps the most telling is this. I did some eyeball comparisons last night of the beam on my wall, about a 30' distance. The Dorcy spotlight shines a bright, oblong spot about 5' wide, with a visible but very dim, almost useless spillbeam. The ROP HI shines a smaller but noticably brighter hotspot, round in the middle with a slightly dimmer oblong hotspot around it (making it more usefull than the larger but oblong Dorcy spot), and the spillbeam from the ROP HI is much brighter and very usefull. The hotspots of the two I would rank as similar in real world performance, with the edge going to the ROP HI because it is more pleasing (slightly brighter, and round)...but the spillbeam is where the ROP HI blows away the Dorcy spotlight. It is just so much better, it is like a wall of light coming out of the ROP HI, the Dorcy is just a small (but bright) beam. Also, for those who don't want to invest in a custom made throw head I also compared the ROP HI with a standard Mag sized MOP aluminum reflector. The hotspot was not quite as bright as the Dorcy (though close), and again it was nice and round and the spillbeam was many times brighter and more usefull.

Conclusion: my 2D size ROP HI with FM 2.5" throw head is brighter, has a much better beam profile (spot to wide), and weighs a mere 1lb 11oz compared to the 5lb 12oz of the Dorcy 1mcp spotlight. Even with a standard sized MOP reflector I would take the ROP HI over the Dorcy anyday, it may not throw quite as far but is a much more usefull light in every other respect (and I'm sure throws plenty far!). The one other thing to consider is runtime, and while I haven't compared the two I would say the edge might go to the Dorcy being that it has a big heavy battery (I might be wrong though). BUT...given that I have AAs in the ROP HI, I can have it recharged in a matter of about 1 hour (assuming I don't already have an extra set of batteries ready to go), whereas the Dorcy battery is built in and takes up to 12 hours to recharge.


----------



## robm (Jun 20, 2007)

mattchase said:


> I did some measurements of my Dorcy 1mcp spotlight and ROP HI, and the ROP came out similar to robm's measurements for peak lux. My ROP has a FM 2.5" throw head and is running on 6 AA Eneloops. Our lumens measurements differ though, Robm how did you go about figuring your lumens? I used the overall output from milk carton test and equations per flashlightreviews.com.
> 
> Dorcy 1mcp - 23,000 peak lux from the hotspot **see below**
> - 15,000 peak overall (15,000 / 100 x 1.62 = 243 lumens) **
> ...




To work out the 'lumens' for the 'big-head' lights, which don't fit the hole in my lightbox (and so miss a lot of reflected light) I did a ceiling bounce test, effectively as described by *mdocod*:



mdocod said:


> stand the lights up pointed at the ceiling in a small room, like a bathroom, leaving the lux meter on the counter of the bathroom to pickup the overall lighting that the room is getting... do that with all the lights and compare. This is a much better way to approximate lumen comparisons between lights.



I also did the same for some lights that do fit the lightbox, and have been 'calibrated' to approximate lumens (by using figures tested elsewhere).
By comparing the 2 values, lightbox to ceiling bounce, I get conversion ratios for ceiling bounce to lightbox, and ceiling bounce to very approximate lumens. 
I don't have the actual figures with me, but the results were quite consistent. I can dig these out later if these would help.

As with any 'homebrew' light measurements there is quite a margin for error and 'lumens' is very loosely used. This is why I quote 1 or 2 significant figures - 600 lumens, for instance, rather than 614 lumens (not actual values btw!)
Also the lux reading in the ceiling bounce were very low figures - less than 20 for most of the low output lights - as the lightmeter only shows whole lux, there is at least another +-5% there (+-10% for values less than 10).

Given your readings as well as *mdocod*'s estimates it does look like my rechargeable light is a bad one  I will see if I can rebuild/repair it tonight!


----------



## robm (Jun 20, 2007)

Update:
I also double checked the Thor - and the output is still about 4x higher on high vs low - this appears to be the same as mine: http://sunforceproducts.com/english/details.asp?id=53
The details claim it has a 1000000 cp low setting, which looking at my lux reading for 'throw' (16000 vs 260000) seems reasonable.

I have also a look at my rechargeable lamps, and it doesn't get any better  - I think the candlepower ratings are just plain made-up!

I have 2 lamps, but both use 6V SLA batteries NOT 12V, although both use 12V car chargers. 
This may explain the very poor output:
One has a 55W 6v lamp (claims 2MCP not 1MCP as I thought), and the other a 35W 6V lamp (claiming 500000cp). The '150' lumens above is from the 55W lamp, the 35W only gives about 90 lumens!
So in my case, at least, the rechargeable lights (apart from the Thor, and the HID ) are rubbish.


----------



## mdocod (Jun 20, 2007)

robm, sorry I jumped to conclusions about your method... at the time, the results made me think that it was the only possible explanation for the bizzare numbers showing up... I've got some different ideas now..

i forgot... the way they wire the low setting on a lot of thors is funny... they wire it all back-a$$-ackwards using the high filament as a resistor of sorts to drive the low filament, it's really goofy and causes really dim output... I remember now that I rewired mine... so it's 100W on low and 130W on high (aprox, probably a lot less after voltage sag)... but what ends up happening, is that the low setting is drawing less amps, so it gets more voltage (less sag) so it has about the same overall output as the high setting...


I think the reason they wire it that way, is to make it impossible to run high and low simultaneously on models with separate switches. 

For the little 6V versions, the poor performance is probably a combination of things... for 1 thing, they are probably not matched to the batteries well at all, the bulbs were probably selected and slapped in an H3 base because they were "close enough" but could be 7.2V bulbs for all we know. The little dinky 6V SLAs have a hard time too, probably sagging a lot. I think the number one reason that some of these spotlights are so underperforming, is the wiring, since copper is practically gold these days, they skimp on wiring and switches, going with 18 or 20 guage garbage, which has a much more profound effect on the lower voltage systems (a 1V drop is common from wiring in these things, on a 6V system, that's ~17% loss, which by itself cuts the output at the bulb in ~half). On a 12V system, the common 1V drop is only about an 8% effect on voltage, which equates to about a 25% loss instead.. I rewired my thor with some good heavy gage cheap speaker wire and noticed a huge improvement, I suggest anyone serious about their spotlights take the time to do the same, upgrade to some nice toggle switches while you're at it. Go with the biggest wire you can fit or afford, 10gage would be nice.


On the other hand, I've got a buddy with a vector twin beam, and he hasn't modded a thing on it, it seems to perform quite well right out of the box, surprisingly decent color temperature.


----------



## robm (Jun 21, 2007)

Thanks for the response *mdocod
*


----------

