# Wicked Lasers Being Confiscated Upon Entering US



## SuperBert (Apr 27, 2005)

Im not trying to start a cheers n'jeers thread here, so plz keep this on topic...

I have heard from a few people now that >5mw lasers ordered from Wicked have been confiscated... has anyone had this problem or heard about this? Do you think its due to the fact that there arent safety measures equipped on the wickedlasers as there are on the PGLIII's? Buyer beware I guess


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## Kreso_Bukvic (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I do not really know. Well Croatia is a great country. With connections and money to pay goverment tax you can import nuclear misslie from Russia no quesions asked /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


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## SuperBert (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

A nice touch to this.... I posted the same thing over in the forum at wicked.. Im now banned from their forum. You all know how they delete everything negative thats posted... guess mine was too much for them... now, back the the original topic!


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## Changots (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

they better not be confiscating them grrrr


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## bootleg2go (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Two people have posted over at wickedlaser that their lasers were siezed by the FDA and is warning that no one in the US should place an order for a wicked unit as it will also be siezed by the FDA and not allowed entry or be returned to WL.

Jack


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## gecko991 (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

They have really turned brown over at Wickeds site,so much for there credibility. Watch how fast your post vanishes as soon as someone replies with the usual. They won't be.


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## PhotonWrangler (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

You've really got to wonder why they can't stand up to scrutiny or negative posts. That's a huge red flag. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif


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## SuperBert (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I agree, and on top of all of it, they banned me for my statements, just to shut me up for good. I really think this is childish on their part, and it really shows their true colors. Theyre in the business for nothing but the money, and thats too bad, as they have some unique products to offer (even though some of them do crap out after 1 days use). Im really interested in having Wicked post here, but theyve already shown themselves to be too afraid to confront issues. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif


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## Raccoon (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Wicked will only post to these forums when he releases a new screen saver.

Good to know about the FDA seizures. Thanks for the tip.

I think you should rename the topic of this thread accordingly. "FDA seizures of orders from Wicked Lasers"


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## The_LED_Museum (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Well, I hope the Laser Gestapo doesn't come and kick my door down because I have several Wicked Lasers products.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif :toliet: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


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## trident (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

do you guys think WL would give up their customer list?


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## PhotonWrangler (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

There are many high powered lasers that are used responsibly by laser show operators. These units go way beyond the power of anything that can fit in your pocket and they're routinely used in public by licensed professionals. My point of course is that higher power does not automatically indicate malevolent intent. I would hope that level-headedness and calm will prevail if they wind up going through this stuff.


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## bootleg2go (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Since WL is not in the USA, they do not need to give up any information, however since all these pointers passed through customs all pointers coming into the USA are documented as to who they were shipped too. All the FDA has to do is look in their database for all items coming from wicked laser and they will be able to see each person or company who bought one in the US.

Jack


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## SuperBert (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Wow am I glad to be able to say that I havent, and will never do business with them. I really wouldnt care to be on any list of the governments, most especially when they are investigating lasers recently. How can it be legal for them to still do business to Americans when they know what will happen? Something really should be done about this. Only those that belong to this and other smaller forums will be informed about the confiscations... but those who are clueless, not by any fault of their own, will end up getting screwed out of a potential few hundred dollars... its just not right.


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## bootleg2go (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Hi Bert, sorry to burst your bubble but your already on a government list as you did buy a PGL unit and it did come through customs. In fact I had bought my 1st laser, a Jasper from Bigha; it did not even go through customs. About a week after I bought it, someone in my neighborhood or area called the authorities(police or whoever) about someone pointing a green laser at their home and cars passing in front of their home. I'm located about 1/2 mile from this house and not line of sight from my house even, but I got a call on my private "pay as you go" cell phone that was bought with cash, unlisted number and all to protect my privacy...And these guys call me to ask what I'm using my laser for and general harrasement in my opinion. So all of you who think big brother doesn't know you have a laser are wrong, they do know and your on their list. Unless you buy it at a fleamarket, or on Ebay 2nd hand from someone and not the dealer himself..or snuck one into the US without customs knowing about it, your a documented owner.

I don't think anyone is going to come knocking on your door asking for you to turn it in, unless things get a lot worse. On the other hand, if anything laser related happens near your home, you and any other laser owners will be on the list of suspects to be sure.

Jack


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## LaserMod (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I too saw them warning posts basically saying "Customs have my laser - hope WL will issue a refund. Do not buy if in US!" - they certainly seem to be going out of their way to make sure no-one reads them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif


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## Raccoon (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Best we can hope for is that their website becomes inaccessable for some reason, preventing new orders from being placed. Let us pray.


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## gecko991 (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Something needs to be done about there general additude towards customers as well as members of there forum because they are quickly going down the toilet. We all are on a number of special Gov lists as potentials upon the purchase of these products. The actions of a few irresponsible individuals lacking any common sense will have a very destructive effect on this interesting hobby for the many credible enthusiasts left holding the bag. Wicked values money more then anything and like so many other Companies may soon meet there end as a result of there own behavior. I would avoid them like the plague.


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## Kreso_Bukvic (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Raccoon said:*
Best we can hope for is that their website becomes inaccessable for some reason, preventing new orders from being placed. Let us pray. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I can easily do that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif, but it would not be fair /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif..

Krešo


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## sharkeeper (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Hello!

What did you expect?

A turnkey product with no accession number is illegal, PERIOD. All this talk of burning stuff, popping balloons, etc. is bad.

Sure we've been burning stuff, pierced razor blades with a high power ruby 20 years ago, etc. in a lab under tightly controlled and safeguarded environment!

A laser that turns on without warning with a simple push of the button, no shutter, no interlock, no soft start (delay, etc.) is just plain dumb. How long before someone gets hurt, a child loses sight in one eye or even a pet gets harmed? This is ridiculous folks!

I have a 5mW jasper and it's fun (and safe) to play with. At night I can see the beam go through the mist from the bow wave like a light saber. No hazard at all.

If I need power to burn something or do other experiments, I have legal laboratory lasers to do such research. These lasers are much more stable and have beam quality better than any portable lasers including the overrated PGL-III.

Anyways, I drifted off course here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

To sum things up, these hopped up POINTERS are going to get the wrong kind of attention and cause more hardship for legitmate users and hobbyists alike. It only takes one serious accident and/or lawsuit. You would think the airplane incidents were enough of a wakeup call. Apparently not. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif


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## jtice (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

"""""If I need power to burn something or do other experiments, I have legal laboratory lasers to do such research. """

OK, while all that you said is very true, and you have very valid points...

lets get real, no you wouldnt, that would cost a crap load of money.
And you woudlnt do it cuz you would just be wanting to do it for fun.

Which is why 90% of us buy high powered lasers.
Like any of these pointers are being put to scientific use.

I do alot of experiments with mine, but I wouldnt concider them to be super scientific.

Point is,,, a high powered laser is just one more dangerous item that we are allowed to buy, that if you are not careful, will hurt or maybe even kill someone.

Guess I better write a letter to wal mart and tell them to stop selling kitchen knives.
oh, wait! they sell... GUNS also! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Anything can be dangerous if some idiot starts using it in a way he or she shouldnt.
The responsible ones shouldnt be punished for the things idiots do.
Guns have less safty features than these properly built lasers, wth is going on in this crazy world. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

~John


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## Lasernerd (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

little off topic ,,what is easier to get a high powered laser or automatic firearm?


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## jtice (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Lasernerd said:*
little off topic ,,what is easier to get a high powered laser or automatic firearm? 

[/ QUOTE ]


Well, to tell you the truth,, NOW? Id say the firearm is easier to get.
I KNOW I can get one today if I wanted to. Theres always your local bulletin board sale items.
The laser, well, seems thats getting hard to get now.
Granted I still can, without background checks etc. But the way things are going that will change soon.

I just get pissed when ppl start being BABIES about an item that can cuase harm, and go nuts, wanting them banned etc.
Every time I hear about this, the item is never something that is truely high on the danger list.

What would you rather be attacked with? A 50mW laser, or a shaprened pencil?

Its just like when they banned NAIL CLIPPERS on airplanes. you got to be kidding me ppl.
I can take 57 pencils on a plane, no problem,,, but noooo , no Nail Clippers !!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Yes, lasers are ... sorta,,, dangerous, they should be treated with great repect, they are not toys.
But I can name a million other things that are more dangerous, that you dont hear all this fuss about.
I think thats becuase ppl tend to PLAY around and do stupid things with lasers, more than pencils etc.
Again, the responsible, being punished for the idiots actions.

~John


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## Lasernerd (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

The times they are changing..
gov.hoopla!


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## Kiessling (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Why are you crying, guys ... you knew this would come. And IMHO this is just the beginning of the end of high-powered pointers in the USA and soon after in the rest of the world, too.

Fact is ... everyone knows a gun is dangerous. Few have a clue about lasers, but a not-too-insignificant number of people play with them. Thus ... lasers are dangerous to the public because of a lot of idiots being part of the public. And as the modern state is a control-freak and babysitter ... there you are.

bernhard


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## Lasernerd (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Bernhard,may I ask if you are German?
curious i spent a few years over there,,
i super enjoyed the BMW museum


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## xenophobe (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

You're NOT on some government list just because you bought, or tried to import a high-spec laser. That's just paranoid BS. If you REALLY think the government is that well organized, you're seriously mistaken.

Customs goes through many packages, mostly from countries and regions where goods are made that don't strictly adhere to government regulation... i.e. Mexico, China, Indonesia, Africa, South America... 

If you try having anything with ivory, certain species of wood, non-FDA drugs, meat, fruit or vegitables... any number of things, Customs will confiscate them without warning. If you're importing endangered species parts, or ivory, you're going to be in a lot of trouble. 

If you think the government is really worried about you committing terrorist actions with a laser pointer, you've got delusions of grandeur. They're simply confiscating them because they do not meet import requirements for their power levels. You can manufacture one domestically just like them without restriction, you may not sell them though.

Right now other than FDA regulation, there is no real control on the sales of green pointers. I really don't doubt that sales in certain places will become banned, just like switchblades or throwing stars, but you're not going to be put on some government terrorist-watch list having them sent to you.


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## noah (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

In my dealings with the various federal authorities, I haven't sensed any wish to ban <5mW lasers. I know the FDA wants to shut down people who sell what they claim are lasers greater than 5mW on the web and eBay and are actively pursuing information on such sellers. That's why I won't touch that market period. I'm trying to do a lot more than just green lasers and don't need the headache of a federal inquiry to slow me down. I'd rather drop the whole Jasper thing than go through that.

For the record, we don't release any customer info to anyone, even if they offer to buy it from us. So I don't know how anyone would have gotten your number. The only customer related question I ever answered was to the FBI, who asked "Did David Banach purchase from you?" Of course, they already knew the answer because he told them and the name is on the side of the laser.

A few weeks later they called to ask for names of customers within a specific zip code. I told them I'd feel more comfortable if they gave me a specific name to confirm or deny, and I never heard back. I did not feel any sort of pressure and they were very nice.

Also, I don't think anything shipped within the US will ever have to go through customs. Only if something is entering/leaving the country.


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## Kiessling (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Lasernerd ... yepp, German. And never been to the BMW museum ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyhow ... it seems the FDA is getting serious now, and it should be quite difficult to pursue this hobby in the near future to your satisfaction. If I were you (meaning a laser guy) I'd rather be a little too paranoid and make damm sure not to violate any regs and/or offend any neighbour or common sense.

bernhard


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## bootleg2go (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I could not agree more with what Kiessling said. I know that Bigha/Noah did not give anyone my phone number as it was unlisted and only given to close friends. Also believe that he did not give out any personal info. I do know the the government has it's ways of getting any info they want if it is not just given to them when they ask. I'm sure they could have just gone into the banking system and searched to see who had transactions with them in the price range of their laser product. No big deal, I've learned your not going to hide much from big brother in todays world.

Jack


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## Raccoon (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

You're not supposed to know about the Bank Secrecy Act.

Conversly, anonymous banking and money transfer systems are illegal in the US. Go figure.


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## sharkeeper (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
No big deal, I've learned your not going to hide much from big brother in todays world. 

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not what you do it's who you know. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## xenophobe (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
*jtice said:*Guns have less safty features than these properly built lasers, wth is going on in this crazy world. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.


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## rscanady (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

im gonna have to agree about the gun safety thing, the primary safety first and foremost for any tool is the person using it. What safeties does these lasers have. Many guns these days have up to 3 safeties builit into them.

Ryan


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## Raccoon (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

By regulation, the PGL-III has:
- a key-on switch
- an emergency off "blind man's" wrist dongle
- a safety aperature shutter
- a 2 second power-on delay
- a nifty little warning sticker

But I agree. The only safety feature that really counts is the operator himself.


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## gadget_lover (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I would think part of the problem with high power pointers is that people don't percieve them as being more dangerous than a low power red pointer. This is an education problem, but it's still a problem.

Kids aren't allowed to buy guns because they often lack the judgment necessary to use one properly. Kids should not be buying high power pointers either. There has to be a way for high power pointers to be distributed safely without getting into privacy issues.

I don't know what that method would be.

Daniel


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## xenophobe (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Firearms purchases must be accompanied by a background check, and in California, handgun purchasers are tested for basic common sense and must demonstrate safe handling before the weapon is delivered to them. This insures the owner is at least aware of safety issues and concerns. Anybody with a criminal record or someone without common sense can buy a high-powered laser on ebay.

On a typical firearm, there is a firing pin block/striker or hammer block, grip safety or trigger safety. With a high powered laser pointer, there is nothing. 

PGL-IIIs aren't being confiscated by customs and aren't really on-topic in this conversation, because they meet FDA regulations for import and sales in the US, whereas high-spec laser pointers, like WL offers, don't.


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## gecko991 (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I here Wicked was about to start selling PGL-IIIs in the near future in addition to there high powered pointers like the Nexus. That may be there saving grace now that they moved distribution to China over by CNI though there high powered Nexus importing days may be over to the U.S. Things are not looking good these days for WL


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## Lasernerd (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
*xenophobe said:*
Firearms purchases must be accompanied by a background check, and in California, handgun purchasers are tested for basic common sense and must demonstrate safe handling before the weapon is delivered to them. This insures the owner is at least aware of safety issues and concerns. Anybody with a criminal record or someone without common sense can buy a high-powered laser on ebay.

On a typical firearm, there is a firing pin block/striker or hammer block, grip safety or trigger safety. With a high powered laser pointer, there is nothing. 

PGL-IIIs aren't being confiscated by customs and aren't really on-topic in this conversation, because they meet FDA regulations for import and sales in the US, whereas high-spec laser pointers, like WL offers, don't. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I don`t know about that!
people who do gun crimes usually get them off the street.
heck i had a kid want to sell me a AK wrapped in paper with the original gun storage grease! 250$
Way less than a high power laser!


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## jtice (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
*xenophobe said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*jtice said:*Guns have less safty features than these properly built lasers, wth is going on in this crazy world. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I can name many reasons a properly built laser is WAY safer than a Glock Pistol.
- Laser has a shutter. heh, dont see anything on a gun blocking bullets from flying out.
- Laser has an led indicator saying its active, 90% of guns dont show you they are loaded.
- Theres a key needed to activate the laser, well unless you have a gunlock on your pistol, no key.
- Glocks dont really even have ANY saftey at all, that little lever on the trigger itself doesnt count, and is quite stupid.
If you accidentally hit the trigger, odds are you are hitting that "safety" at the same time.
- There is no way to "uncock" or put a Glocks hammer down. (this is just plain stupid) 

[ QUOTE ]
*xenophobe said:*
*Firearms purchases must be accompanied by a background check*, and in California, handgun purchasers are tested for basic common sense and must demonstrate safe handling before the weapon is delivered to them. This insures the owner is at least aware of safety issues and concerns. Anybody with a criminal record or someone without common sense can buy a high-powered laser on ebay.

*On a typical firearm, there is a firing pin block/striker or hammer block, grip safety or trigger safety.* With a high powered laser pointer, there is nothing. 



[/ QUOTE ]

WRONG.
Though I do agree the regular pointers dont have any saftey.

I cant remember the last time someone I knew bought a gun with a background check.
most ppl here buy firearms from individuals, from listings in local news papers, and bulletin boards.
You meet the guy, hand him some cash, and you have a gun.
Now, you are supposed to then register the gun under your name, since it changed owners. But no one ever does that.

Cali. is much differnt, they are lucky to own a pistol at all. Things are watched alot closer there.

Point is...
- Guns are WAYYYY more dangerous, and have the same, or sometimes less saftey features,
- Im tired of being punished for other morons mistakes.
- Why the hell is it illegal for me to own a laser that at most can blind a person in one eye, yet, I can go buy guns that can blow a hole through your house ?

~John


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## Kreso_Bukvic (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Hy,

i gues you do not mind if i jump into this argument too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.
Guns and laser are simple machines (guns) or optoelectric component (laser).
Guns and lasers do not have a brain and cannot think. Gun and laser
isa harmless tool if treated propery it are the stupid people that put
shame on this hoby /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif.

I see a solution, they should forbidden >1 mW lasers, for higer one
you would need to ask a permit like for a weapon. The same situation is 
with airrifles you didnt need permit for them until kids started to
shoot at people /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif. After few eyeballs and othere injuries were done that was soldved /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif.

My dad is weapon colector, he has alot of firearms and all possible permits. In past ~30 years his guns never did hurt anyone. They are nicely stores in a locker with unbreakable glass and keylocks. 

So i do with my lasers, all are stored in a metal case with a keylock, i also put a keylock on my lasers and store the keys in other place /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif.

The main point is guns do not kill and lasers do not blind people do.

Im sory that few stupidones can make somuch damage to us responsible hobists. The WL deal is also important because that laser has no safety. Just push a button and lase with >90 mW, i cannot imagine this stupidity /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif.

Thanks

Krešo


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## SuperBert (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

glad to see I started a nice political thread /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif


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## senecaripple (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

a firestorm!


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## gecko991 (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

This is becoming yet another poop storm though very entertaining. The individual holding the gun or a laser is the real potential weapon. The environment that allows the individuals mental condition to influence his or her behavior is the trigger.


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## xenophobe (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]

I can name many reasons a properly built laser is WAY safer than a Glock Pistol.
- Laser has a shutter. heh, dont see anything on a gun blocking bullets from flying out.
- Laser has an led indicator saying its active, 90% of guns dont show you they are loaded.
- Theres a key needed to activate the laser, well unless you have a gunlock on your pistol, no key.
- Glocks dont really even have ANY saftey at all, that little lever on the trigger itself doesnt count, and is quite stupid.
If you accidentally hit the trigger, odds are you are hitting that "safety" at the same time.
- There is no way to "uncock" or put a Glocks hammer down. (this is just plain stupid) 


[/ QUOTE ]

You use the term "properly built". You are referring to a PGL-III or similarly FDA approved Class IIIb laser device, NOT the type of device that is being discussed in this thread. The discussion at hand are Wicked Laser IIIb devices that do NOT meet FDA specifications.

A Glock is not a recreational self-defense or target grade firearm, it is a combat semi-automatic firearm. It is primarily designed and marketed for Police and Tactical applications and it's lack of a user selectable safety is PART of it's design. If it were as unsafe as you seem to think it is, there wouldn't be so many police and government agencies that issue this pistol. The pistol is designed to fire when loaded and when the trigger is pulled. Saying that it does not have any safties that YOU like or you think is stupid is opinion and not factual. Lets stick with facts, okay?

A Glock DOES have three safties. One is a block that prevents the striker from impacting a primer unless the trigger is specifically pulled. Another is the trigger safety, it will only activate if it is pulled. The third is a drop safety. All three work in conjunction. This prevents misfires from situations where dropping the firearm could result in accidental discharge. 

The Glock also comes with a manual that outlines saftey, in case the purchaser is clueless and can read.

A WL does not come with any safeties. All it takes is a press of a button. As far as I know, no green laser comes with a manual that describes safe handling either. The lasers we're discussing don't have any, and are being confiscated by customs because they do not have FDA issued safties for their power rating.

[ QUOTE ]

Point is...
- Guns are WAYYYY more dangerous, and have the same, or sometimes less saftey features,
- Im tired of being punished for other morons mistakes.
- Why the hell is it illegal for me to own a laser that at most can blind a person in one eye, yet, I can go buy guns that can blow a hole through your house ?


[/ QUOTE ]

1) Laser pointers are generally considered by just about everyone to be novelties or toys and do not associate laser pointers as being dangerous. This is starting to change because of the media and because the number of mischevious misuse of these pointers is growing.

2) Why are law-abiding firearms owners persecuted for the illegal and negligent use by criminals? I own dozens of firearms, they've never hurt anyone or accidentally discharged at any time and never will, but because a bunch of mentally unstable people shooting up schoolyards, I'm required to register my firearms because they've been banned?

3) It is NOT illegal for you to own a laser that you can put someone's eye out. If you want a 5 watt green monster that'll burn holes through your house, your neighbor's house, and a few houses past that, go build or buy one. Just don't expect to import one that does not meet FDA Approval.

Congress is considering putting more regulations on owning laser pointers. Currently, there are no state or national regulations regarding the ownership of high powered lasers, there ARE regulations regarding the use of them though. 

That's not the same thing.


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## Kiessling (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Wouldn't it be more productive and on-topic to discuss the possible implications and consequences of those new events than to rant against the perceived stupidity of the regs? After all, you won't change them, but you will be judged by them, or at least loose some money upon ordering a WL.

All the firestorm about guns vs. lasers is completely in vain. True, guns should be more dangerous, but so what? Is that an argument to allow laserpointers just because there is something more dangerous out there? The argument isn't even related to the question, it is more or less a distraction, a fallacy.

It is very dangerous to drink household cleaners, you will die when doing it. But ... does that justify to legalize Absinth again? Just because it is less dangerous when ingested? No, it doesn't. At least I do not see why ...

bernhard

EDIT: xenophobe, this isn't meant as a reply to your post above, you were typing faster than me ...


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## Empath (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

There was a time that the general public could acquire and use x-ray machines. You even found them in shoe stores. You could walk up to them, put your feet into the slot, and look through the viewer at the bones in your feet, and how your feet fit in the shoe. Kids, of course, delighted in them. They'd made several trips to the x-ray machine when they'd go to the shoe store.

X-ray machines aren't safe for that type of use, and restrictions eventually removed them from ready access. I doubt that it took too much to convince the citizenry that restricted access was too much of an infringement on "rights".

The hazard aspect of lasers, and the power that can be contained in a concentrated and aligned beam of light is quickly being realized and developed. As the technical difficulties involved in channeling more and more energy into the beam is overcome, the more hazardous they'll become. Restrictions are a reasonable expectation.

I'd look for restrictions on both acquisition and research, with such being allowed only by the qualified.


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## senecaripple (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

i'm some wannabe politician who wants to make a name for myself. or a loser news producer who needs a good story. well here it is. all the reasons to outlaw lasers. hand this thread to dan rather. let him report this on his 60 minutes. hillary our carpetbagger who plans on running for potus in '06, legislate we register lasers> 5mw. confiscate any who cannot prove the use of lasers for their livelihood. and next year lasers will be like the x-ray, handguns, seatbelt and helmet laws. laws will dictate how we decide, as we as individuals are not intelligent enough to decide for ourselves.


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## Kiessling (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
we as individuals are not intelligent enough to decide for ourselves

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately this seems to be too true. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

However, I think you miss the point. This is not about what you decide for yourself, it is about what you decide for me ... meaning you want me to trust you (and all the others, too, btw) to be able to judge wisely how you will use your high-powered laser, possibly putting me into danger.
Well, I do not trust you on this matter, nor anyone else. I do not want the general public playing with those things where I walk, live and look around.

I do not like an abundance of regulations. I feel threatened and severely restricted by many laws and modern inforamtion technology. However, in this case, I welcome them.

bernhard


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## Empath (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

We're not intelligent enough to decide for ourselves. Whatever made you think we were? Since you include x-ray, do you think using them as a tool for fitting shoes, and entertaining kids was showing enough "intelligence to decide for ourselves"?


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## gecko991 (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Some extremely valid points expressed within this thread. I still think Wicked Laser is becoming rather Brown in there absense of responding to this whole situation.


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## senecaripple (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

that's why we have dan rather and hillary to decide for us. and i guess lasers will be the next x-ray. as it does emit radiation.


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## bootleg2go (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Hi Gecko,
I don't want this to get into a cheers/jeers thread, but I do agree with you that if WL is not responding to these issues it does make them look bad. I posted in the WL forum a couple of days ago asking WL to comment on these rumors/ messages flying around the internet about them. I told them that their silence on the matter does hurt them as when people only hear one side of the story and not anything to the contrary, what do you think they believe. This post I made was not derogatory in any way, just asking for information them. Well, my post got deleted. That goes a long way toward answering many of our questions on the matter....very sad.

Jack


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## Raccoon (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Everything is perfectly fine. Do not be alarmed.

*delete*

--

As far as the general consensus by the moderators here that laser technology ought be removed from the public's hands, just as radioactive technology has... I have to wonder where is the line drawn?

What other technology do we find in our daily use that causes similarly profound and adverse effects on human lives as those bone-boxes did?

Certainly you can name a few... but so dependant you have become on that technology that suggesting it be removed would be akin to blashemic rantings from Timothy Mcvey (the philosophical thinker of our time-- the Unibomber ).


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## gecko991 (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
*bootleg2go said:*
Hi Gecko,
I don't want this to get into a cheers/jeers thread, but I do agree with you that if WL is not responding to these issues it does make them look bad. I posted in the WL forum a couple of days ago asking WL to comment on these rumors/ messages flying around the internet about them. I told them that their silence on the matter does hurt them as when people only hear one side of the story and not anything to the contrary, what do you think they believe. This post I made was not derogatory in any way, just asking for information them. Well, my post got deleted. That goes a long way toward answering many of our questions on the matter....very sad.

Jack 

[/ QUOTE ] Many of my posts as well as others here have been squashed there as well for exsposure and your right. They are finished in my book.


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## gorn (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
*senecaripple said:*
i'm some wannabe politician who wants to make a name for myself. or a loser news producer who needs a good story. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but without the halfwit who can't control themselves with a laser there would be no opportunity for the politician or new producer to make a name for them self using lasers.


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## senecaripple (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

there are plenty of halfwits around, as there are opportunists around that would sensationalize for their gain! 15 minutes of fame or longer!


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## SuperBert (Apr 30, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

What does everyone think will happen with the sales of PGLIII's to the States? I have a strong feeling that our US government will start enforcing new laws, written or unwritten, simply to take these out of "the potentially wrong hands". Its funny to me how many think we are the most free country in the world, when really we are simply the most regulated. 

As for Wicked, they will be over soon; they know it just as well as all of us. Unless they find some amazing way to get a PGLIII type laser through our strict customs at an AMAZING price, they are finished. In speaking with CNI as well as Dimitry Federov (owner of LaserGlow), I have found that a contract has never been signed for the production of PGL's for Wicked. They never came to an agreement on pricing and availability, and Wicked wanted too much for what they were willing to pay (all of this info is coming from CNI themselves). In speaking with Chris Tao via AIM, he failed to mention any of this, and he messaged me every so often to tell me that CNI would be done with his soon. Im sick of the lying, and Im sick of them manipulating their customers. 

Does Wicked really think that a password will stop the misuse of their lasers? It takes nothing more than a little lie (something wicked is GREAT at) to get the password from them to order the higher powered units. As far as Im concerned, thats like putting a rocket launcher into a Super Soaker... too much power, with no safety whatsoever, in something that looks harmless. A PGLIII looks nothing like an ordinary pen, and it has several safety measures incorperated in its design to boot. 

Im glad to see some of the posts here, and Im glad to see that people are realizing not only about the shadiness of that company, but most especially the danger and ramifications of the misuse of lasers, no matter what the output. This really shows how bad a couple of ignorant people are making it for those who care for the hobby. 

Sorry if my long rant was a bit off topic, I just had some things to say. I really hope Wicked finds the courage to post here, but even my PGLIII knows that wont be happening. 

Like I said in a post on the forum @ Wicked (of which I was banned)... Karma is coming back to haunt them for the way they run things and the way they treat people.


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## SuperBert (Apr 30, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Its great to see that this thread has stayed open. Theres some great points being made here, and Im sure more to come. It's sad that things had to come this far with the trouble caused by lasers... it doesnt help us one bit. I am a firm believer that those who commit crimes like this should be punished, and perhaps even made examples of. Im sick of things getting ruined for others, when its just a couple of immature morons who break it for the rest of us. 

WOOHOO!!! 250 POSTS!!!


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## bootleg2go (Apr 30, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I agree Bert,
When someone misuses a laser either by pointing at or near so as to startle a vehicle, person or animal, the punishment should be swift and stiff. If it's a 1st offense they should get 60-90 days in jail to think about it and then 1,000 of community service to finish it off. Of course if it's an aircraft or someone or some animals vision is damaged the penalty should be much greater. They really should make them all legal and just really crack the whip with no mercy on those that misuse them.

Jack


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## xenophobe (Apr 30, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
*SuperBert said:*
What does everyone think will happen with the sales of PGLIII's to the States?

[/ QUOTE ]

Until there is Federal legislation banning or requiring permits to import >5mW lasers, you'll be able to continue ordering PGL-III models that are FDA compliant and shouldn't have any problems with customs. 

Even if some states were to ban >5mW lasers, US Customs would still allow the units to be shipped, because when importing things, YOU must comply to local and state laws, and determine for yourself if you are breaking any laws.


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## gecko991 (Apr 30, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Hopefully we will not see any more incidents involving the lasing of mass transportation devices or people and animals but I seriously doubt it. Our own individual Civil Liberties allow every person within the U.S. to choose the course of his or her own actions and when we act in a careless manner without regard our own Gov can use for example extensions of the Patriot Act to remove those very same liberties providing the actions in question adhere to the exact criteria set by law provided concrete proof is obtained as well to justify the penalty. Unfortunately I currently reside within 20 miles of David Banache and ever since that incident I will not even consider bringing any of my Lasers outside for some fresh air . Any Laser greater then 5mw requires a variance permit to be used outside here and at least for a while forget about shinning it up into the sky without the potential of a visit from the Men in Black.


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## xenophobe (Apr 30, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Join an astronomy club. Apply for a variance for star pointing. The most they can say is no.


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## bootleg2go (Apr 30, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Belonging to an astronomy club is no reason for a variance. In fact lately many clubs are banning the use of laser pointers at their parties all together, and pointers with >5mw output have never been welcome at star parties as their output is too high and they ruin night vision. You can get a variance for laser light shows, however you need to pass certification classes and have everything your going to do in your show documented and choreographed.

True, the most they will say is no, and that is what they will say unless you have the documentation of your training.

Jack


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## gecko991 (Apr 30, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I have no desire to join an Astronomy club at this time just to use those credentials as my defense in the event of a visit by local authorities asking about green lights in my backyard.


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## Raccoon (Apr 30, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

>5mW lasers at star parties do not ruin night vision.

We have used a >100mW green laser at a star party, and no night vision was disturbed in the slightest. It simply produced a line visible from all angles and not just people standing right next to the pointer. In fact, unless it's a perfectly new moon (no moon), a <5mW pointer is very difficult to see at all.


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## sharkeeper (Apr 30, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Yes it's all fun until someone gets hurt!


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## gecko991 (Apr 30, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
*sharkeeper said:*
Yes it's all fun until someone gets hurt! 

[/ QUOTE ] Excellent!


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## Surefire_Rocks (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

good one


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## gecko991 (May 4, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Its all just smoke and mirrors.


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## nagognog2 (May 7, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I can tell you this about Wicked Lasers: They will never place another ad in Astronomy Magazine in the USA again. The fact that US Customs is seizing shipments and Mr. Tao will not address the loss of people's money and deletes any "negative" posts on his forum was enough. Could they be done for? Yup.


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## PhotonWrangler (May 7, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

CPF is still runing a banner ad from Wicked. I wonder if this is still appropriate considering recent events.


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## Kiessling (May 7, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

If there is truly something unethical going on, please feel free to contact CPF admin / mod to discuss teh issue.
However, biased moderation of their message board and them not responding to posts about their lasers being confiscated upon entering US-space won't really fit in that category, I am afraid /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
After all, you know the risks associated when buying such a laser ...

bernhard


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## PhotonWrangler (May 7, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Kiessling said:*
After all, you know the risks associated when buying such a laser ...

bernhard 

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my point - someone seeing the banner ad might not know the risks. This board is primarily aimed at U.S. users, and if there's a high probability that a buyer in the U.S. is going to lose his/her money to a confiscated laser, that's an issue.


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## gecko991 (May 7, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I totally agree and the risk associated with Wicked at the present is perhaps a little greater then most others.


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## PhotonWrangler (May 7, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Especially since there's some censorship of negative details going on.

If it seems unfair to single out Wicked, then place a disclaimer on ALL banner ads for lasers.


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## Kiessling (May 8, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
This board is primarily aimed at U.S. users, and if there's a high probability that a buyer in the U.S. is going to lose his/her money to a confiscated laser, that's an issue. 

[/ QUOTE ]

CPF won't get involved in private transactions between a vendor and a member. It is your responsiblity to make sure you buying habits comply with the legal regulations in your country. Being uninformed about what one does isn't an excuse.

CPF is a US-based international board and there are lots of members who can buy from Wicked without the risk of having their laser confiscated.

However, since you are all insisting on this matter, I'll bring it in the committee of mods and admins and we'll discuss the issue.

bernhard


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## PhotonWrangler (May 8, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Thank you.


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## Raccoon (May 8, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Let it be known that we really do insist. Please. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sponsor banners have always, and will always be, an endorsement of one's product. Just as Nascar racers are covered in product endorsements, so is this website.

If you endorse a product, you are naturally encouraging your _followers_ (the members of this forum) to purchase from said sponsor. As 99% of your members are located in the US, you can expect 99% of the purchases will be from these members.

*Knowingly* encouraging US customers to purchase items which may be illegal to them, and that are actively being confiscated from them, is ... well, we all know what it is.

There's a reason we don't see cigarette commercials in childrens' cartoons anymore. Children can't buy cigarettes.


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## Kiessling (May 8, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

CPF isn't encouraging anyone to buy anything at all. We are not endorsing any business. We simply do provide banner-ad space for those dealers who wish to take this opportunity.

Even if the majority (not nearly as much as 99% btw /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) is US-based, this is an international group nevertheless, and CPF staff can never check all the offers from sponsors (and B/S/T too) if and where they are legit or not. This part is the responsibility of the customer.
I am not allwoed to buy a gun, yet a lot of sponsors sell'em. Whose responsibility is it to make sure I do not make a mistake by clicking the "buy me now" button?

However, if something truly unethical should be found out about a sponsor, the ultimate decision lies in the hands of the forum owner.
It seems that no such issues have been clearly identified so far /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif. 
We will see about it soon, I'll let you all know.

bernhard


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## Kiessling (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Wicked Lasers is no longer a sponsor of CPF and the banner-ad will be removed from the selection.
bernhard


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## LaserMod (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I've had enough.

Wicked Lasers


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## Data (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Well with the barring of WL banners it looks like you all got your witch... oops I mean wish.

BTW, where is the person(s) on our CPF forum who has stated WL owes them a laser and did not eventually received it? Why have they not posted here?


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## SuperBert (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

the people who claimed they did not recieve their lasers were over on the Wicked Forum, not cpf. The posts made about it, were of course deleted... when I tried to warn people after seeing these threads and their deletions, I was banned from the boards.


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## Empath (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Discussion of the problems with confiscations is okay. Discussions of the WL forum is off-topic, as is a jeering theme. The thread can continue if you get back on track.


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## gecko991 (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I have heard of one individual who actually got a high powered nexus here within the U.S. but most people are left with the smoke and mirrors act.


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## PhotonWrangler (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Data said:*
Well with the barring of WL banners it looks like you all got your witch... oops I mean wish.


[/ QUOTE ]

The purpose of this discussion was not a witch hunt; it was to protect CPF members. Considering that those devices don't come cheaply, I think it's a worthwhile discussion.


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## Data (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

All people should know that a forum that is sponsored by a manufacturer is biased by its vary nature. The purpose of WL forum is to talk tech and help sell their products.

And yes one purpose of this discussion is to protect CPF members and to that end I personally am in agreement with you. WL has lousy customer support and a biased forum and that sucks. However, the risk of purchasing a laser that is >5mW from ANY manufacturer outside the USA is that you may have to wait a while to get it if US customs catches it. If you have proof that WL is screwing people than we would all love to see it. US customs is only doing their job. It is all importers of high-powered lasers task to get around the import restrictions if they can. It is looking more difficult all the time.


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## SuperBert (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

It shouldnt be a priority of anyone to try and outsmart the government... It can only cause problems, for the importer that tried to find the loophole, and for the rest of us in the hobby. It makes us all look bad. Its sort of like those that play paintball. When someone shoots a car or another person just out of anger or fun, it simply makes the sport look bad for all of us... like nothing but a bunch of irrisponsible jerks running around with dangerous weapons. Same thing applies here. When people shine lasers at planes, it makes it look bad for the rest of us. If someone tries to get around the restrictions, it makes it look like they are trying to do something wrong with it. 

Sorry to get off topic above... just trying to prove my point.


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## wintermute (May 16, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I have four words to say...

I told you so. 

I told everyone Wicked and Chris Tao were shady, and you all got mad at me for it. Now, 3 months later, everyone gets it. I am glad, and I just hope that not too many more people lost money, or got crappy products from them.


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## Kiessling (May 16, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

For the record: CPF staff did get annoyed not because of your opinion of WL, but because of the way you were conducting yourself on this forum. And btw ... we do not share your opinion, we don't share it now and we didn't share it then.
bernhard


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## AJ_Dual (May 17, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Hmmm. The WL board is gone.

Interesting.

I'm glad I got my Wicked Professional (15-20mW) last Feburary when the getting was good.


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## notoatmeal (May 17, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I ordered a 55mw last month, and it came very quickly. I was initially worried just after I placed the order, as there was a lot of concerns about WL.

The laser was as promised, but after a few days, it lost power. It took about 4 emails to get WL to respond, and another 2 to convince him to issue an RMA.

I sent it to the address he provided, and it was returned to me two weeks later as "incomplete address" from the postal service in china. 

Another several unanswered emails to WL later, I call 2CO and ask for a refund. They told me that he has been suspended for too many fraudlent actions, and customer dissatisfaction.

fortunately, I got my purchase refunded, so I'm only out $30 for the shipping to china.


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## andyz (May 17, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I just ordered a 55mw this morning. I suppose I will have to wait and see


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## SuperBert (May 17, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

I dont understand why someone would give these people more money after everything that has gone on and all of the bad reports that have been made? There site was down for a couple of days... Im willing to be that their site host dropped them too... just an assumption though. Now the forum is gone, so no one can make bad statements about them over there any more. Maybe this is the wrong place for all of this, but jeez..


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## andyz (May 17, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Also I ordered 2 Leadlights from Ebay. If Everything arrives I will be happy


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## gecko991 (May 17, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Things are not looking good for them.


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## Kiessling (May 17, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

Last reminder not to turn this into a Cheers'n'Jeers thread as this forum is indeed the wrong place for such activities.
bernhard


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## Laserman380 (May 17, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

After reading the comments here, it almost seems like CPF is defending Wicked Lasers...as to why this place isn't a good place to warn people about a defective product, is beyond me...

All I will say is my laser turned defective after a few weeks of use and they will not return any emails to dissatisfied customers. Absolutely intolerable and inexcuseable. I hope they disappear soon so that nobody else gets ripped off.


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## Kiessling (May 17, 2005)

*Re: Could They Be Done For?*

OK ... closed.

Laserman380 ... as I can see you registered today and have one post so far... how can you be so arrogant to judge what place CPF is and is not? Where does your impression come from that we (CPF) defend WL?

As I can clearly see that some things on earth are beyond you, let me explain it in easy terms:
- There is a place for everything ... and bad business experiences are made public in the Cheers'n'Jeers forum
- A thread shall stay on topic in order not to pollute the data base and thus making the search function a useful tool
- WL isn't a paying sponsor any more. 
- CPF won't get involved in private transactions between members and dealers ... we don't defend anyone nor do we condemn anyone, it simply isn't our business
- You do not rant about the rules or moderation in public or be banned
- etc.

You made a very bad entry to this place. I hope your style will improve over time or this will be a short visit for you.
Read the rules. Heed the rules.

bernhard


----------

