# How do you measure outside of part?



## mototraxtech (Apr 20, 2010)

This is going to sound crazy but how and what tool do you use to measure the outside of a part that you are lathing down.

I have been using a digital caliper and it works great when the part is unchucked but I can not get it to read very accurate when the part is chucked to the lathe. It also is pretty accurate when I do inside diameters as well. I can get it pretty close if I work at it for about 5 minutes but that is way to much time. Its been taking me about an hour to make some small spacers. Is there a better why or tool to make it faster and more accurate. I have already wasted about a foot of material trying to make a spacer that needs to be +- .001 and I know the lathe can do it but I cant get an accurate measurement when the part chucked and I keep taking off to much material.

Any ideas would be great.

Thanks!


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## tino_ale (Apr 20, 2010)

I don't have a lathe (yet) so I can't speak of experience but I don't see why it seems to be a problem measuring a part on the lathe. Not as convenient, maybe need to twist your neck a bit, but still doable ?

Anyway, a micrometer should provide you a more accurate OD measurement than a caliper. A digital caliper will typically offer a +/-0.02mm precision, a mic about 10 times better.


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## Per-Sev (Apr 20, 2010)

I was a machinist for 16 years and a outside micrometer is what you want and to measure the I.D. use a inside mic or a bore gauge depends on how much money you want to spend, cailpers can work if they have a fine adjustment like the master Starretts do or there is a pie tape that measures the circumfrence and then reads out in a vernier gauge reading I had one and it was good to +/-.001 but its for bigger diameters mostly.


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## mototraxtech (Apr 20, 2010)

Its because the part in solid mounted so you have to get the caliper exactly 90 degrees to the part and still be able to see it. If the part is off the lathe you can let it fall straight down and let gravity get it mostly right then just put a little more pressure on the caliper to close and it will adjust to the +- one degree that you are probably off.


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## mototraxtech (Apr 20, 2010)

Anybody know of a good and relatively cheap place to get a mic. Or just give me an idea of one to look for and I keep looking on ebay.


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## Per-Sev (Apr 20, 2010)

Check craigslists if you live in the states. Or here in Michigan we have some pawn stores that carry used tools also.


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## gadget_lover (Apr 20, 2010)

Micrometers are available for very little. Even cheap ones are accurate enough for +-.001
They come is different sizes. Each size uses about the same mechanism but has a bigger opening. The mechanism only extends about an inch.

An example of one such set is http://www.shars.com/products/view/1915/06quot_Solid_Metal_Frame_Micrometer_Set

Daniel


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## KC2IXE (Apr 20, 2010)

mototraxtech said:


> Anybody know of a good and relatively cheap place to get a mic. Or just give me an idea of one to look for and I keep looking on ebay.



Geez - wish you had asked a week ago - a friend of mine had to buy a lot of 10 mics to get 1 he wanted (a particular model) - he gave away the rest, and I gave one to a friend who has little use for it

I ONLY have 3 1" Mics - my "normal" one, my one that has a ground down spindle I use for keyways, and the one in my shooting box


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## wquiles (Apr 20, 2010)

Most everything I do is down to 0.001". I know it is an overkill for most everybody else, specially for internal parts/fit that nobody will ever see, but that is how I build everything - pretty much everything is fitted.

For OD, for quick measurements to 0.001" (90-95% of what I do) I use calipers. I started with regular digital calipers, then nicer digital calipers, and then a very nice dial caliper from Mitutoyo with carbide tipped in/out jaws:












But as nice as the Mitutoyo caliper was, in my humble opinion none had the repeatability I needed/wanted - they all seem too sensitive to pressure on the item you are trying to measure, so to me the repeatability was not there - too much flex for me.

Thanks to Barry I learned about the 50 division vernier master calipers (model No. 123) from Starrett, and I have never looked back ever since. It is the "best" caliper I have ever used, and I can consistently measure down to 0.001 every single time - no guess work. Due to their adjusting pressure wheel I get really consistent measurements - much more consistent than any other caliper I had before. Part of this consistency is simply due to the massive weight and construction of these master calipers - they are much stiffer than other calipers, and they stay in calibration (I regularly check mine against my 0.00005" Mitutoyo QuantuMike Micrometer and the master gauges they come with). I got various of them, in inch/inch, and in the very rare inch/metric, which gives me direct reading on both inch and metric. Yes, they are "slow" and need a consistent technique to read (directly from above and with good lighting), but once you nail the technique, it is easy - I actually take pleasure and pride in taking measurements with these "old school" measuring tools, which still to this day are "more" accurate than dial calipers (I think Barry had the link to the analysis that proves this objectively):
















I know it is a little bit "sacrilegious" but I did cut my larger inch/metric model to a more "handy" size/weight, and this is the one I now use like 90%+ of the time:






I also have (thanks to Barry again) a special version from Mitutoyo that has much deeper jaws or "long jaws" for special cases where my Starretts can't take the measurement:







For OD, for really accurate measurements to less than 0.001" (usually trying to hit 0.0005") I get out the 0-1" or 1-2" Mitutoyo QuantuMike Micrometers since my Master Starrett Calipers can't accurately distinguish those smaller variations:











For measuring ID, like most I started using the calipers, but again they are not (in my humble opinion) not good enough and nor repeatable enough for measuring ID. Instead, thanks to Barry, I purchased a very nice set of inside telescoping gage set (usually aroung $100 for a good set - stay away from the cheap sets!) to take the measurement, and then read that value directly on my Starrett Master Caliper, or my QuantuMike Micrometer if I need more accuracy (again 90-95% of the time the Starrett Vernier caliper gives me enough). You can see one of these gauges being used here:






This is the exact set that I got:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=22507921&PMAKA=327-2795


Sorry for the long post on "tool porn" .....


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## darkzero (Apr 20, 2010)

Very nice Will! Especially that QuanatuMike......I've been eyeing one out for a while now & they don't pop out too often on ebay. I'll probably just end up buying one new. Does the quick feed for thimble really make a nice a difference?

I'm a sucker for Mitu tools even long before I came across this machining hobby & buy Mitu whenever I can.


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## wquiles (Apr 21, 2010)

darkzero said:


> Does the quick feed for thimble really make a nice a difference?


Yes, it certainly does. I have some old school vernier micrometers and I hate the very slow action. These are definitely the way to go. Like you I have been looking at these for a long time, so I waited until one of those 30% off at Enco some time last year and got both the 0-1" and the 1-2" Mics.


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## precisionworks (Apr 21, 2010)

> ... how and what tool do you use to measure the outside of a part that you are lathing down ... I have been using a digital caliper ...


Most calipers (digital, dial, slide, etc.) are at best a rough measuring tool, good only for getting to within the final .010". At that time a precision measuring tool is needed. As Will mentioned, the very best mechanical calipers are the Starrett 123 or the Mitu look alike - my 12" Starrett & 18" Mitu are two of the most used tools in the shop. The reason these work well and consistently produce readings accurate to +/- .0005" is the 50 division vernier coupled with the thumb wheel slide advance (the black knurled ring attached to the threaded rod, lower right):











About $600-$1000 at retail, or as low as $25-$100 on eBay 

Mics allow measurement of large round surfaces that are too large for the relatively short jaws of the caliper. You'll need a mic that measures one decimal past the tolerance that is called for (call out). If the call out is .0010" you need a mic that reads .00010". Tenth reading mics cost little more than those that read one decimal less, but the tenth reading mic is much more versatile. All twelve of my Mitu mics were Ebay purchased for not a lot of money, and will easily last a lifetime or two.

A decent set of mics plus a 50 division vernier (or two) will do most everything you need. Walk into any production machine shop in the world, manual or CNC, and those are the tools you'll see in use on the shop floor. Pull out a digital caliper & the old timers will throw rocks at you


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## Per-Sev (Apr 21, 2010)

I agree that the Starrett 123 vernier calipers are the best out there. After I became disabled I had to sell all my precision tools and they were all Starrett's but the one tool I kept and still own are the 123 calipers. I have had other style calipers but when you work in a shop and you are setting your tools down around where you are machining and chips are flying around the calipers with gears don't last long the Starrett 123 are like a McGizmo light made to last a lifetime. And I did work with old timers and there were no digital anything in there tool boxes or mine.


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## precisionworks (Apr 21, 2010)

> ... there were no digital anything in their tool boxes or mine.


The best use for any digital caliper, IMO, is for pulling round stock off the rack. Fast & easy to tell if a 20' stick of 1144 Stressproof is 1 9/16" or 1 5/8". Really irritating to bring the bridge crane to the stock rack, lift the bar out, set it on the infeed table to the band saw, cut a dozen 6" long pieces, and then find out that they are all 1/16" too small to be used :mecry:


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## mototraxtech (Apr 21, 2010)

I would really like to get a digital one as I like to be able to just read the number. I found two on ebay that are under 100 for both but I dont know how good they are.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390183462750&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360253985641&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


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## Per-Sev (Apr 21, 2010)

mototraxtech said:


> I would really like to get a digital one as I like to be able to just read the number. I found two on ebay that are under 100 for both but I dont know how good they are.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390183462750&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
> 
> ...



If I was buying a mic I would want to see it in person and try it out they are not all created equal. Those look nice but when they don't say who made them then the quality is usually not up to par. Is there a Production tool supply co near you. If you are doing a lot of machining then you might want to go with a set of mics but if you want digital spend your money on something that will last like a Starrett or Mitutoyo.


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## precisionworks (Apr 21, 2010)

No brand name means that the lowest bidder got the contract to build those mics. If or when they stop working, they make a decent C-clamp 

IMO, three brands of digital micrometer are the ones to look for ... Mitu, Mitu, or Mitu. Batteries last for years, they are repairable if needed, and they never lie to you. They cost at least double the cost of the Best of China 
mics, and are easily worth four times that.

86 are listed today on this search:

http://business.shop.ebay.com/i.htm...odkw=mitutoyo+micrometer&_osacat=12576&bkBtn=


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## mototraxtech (Apr 21, 2010)

is it ok to buy a used one or should I look for a new one/s.


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## mototraxtech (Apr 21, 2010)

I also found this

http://www.msi-viking.com/detail.asp?masterid=3734xfl-1

it is starrett though:naughty:


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## precisionworks (Apr 21, 2010)

I love everything Starrett ... with the exception of digital anything. Get a bunch of spare batteries, as Starrett's are well known battery eaters.


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## Per-Sev (Apr 21, 2010)

I have no experience with digital anything so if precisionworks says that they eat batteries then buy a Mitu. All my tool were Starrett I had inside outside mics, dial indicators, depth mics, height gages, gage blocks, calipers up to 24'' masters, pie tape, just about every tool Starrett made but they were all vernier scale reading. I would only buy used if you can try it out first don't buy used through ebay with a lot of people out of work you should be able to find some nice used tools for sale on Craigslist. Do you live in the US?


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## Tom Anderson (Apr 21, 2010)

It depends on the diameter of the workpiece and the tolerances required, but I usually like using one of these.







Most of my electronic digital gages are Mitutoyo.

It's nice because they can do the math for you.


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## precisionworks (Apr 21, 2010)

> Most of my electronic digital gages are Mitutoyo.


Mine too. All the Mitu digitals take the same battery, and have used that same battery type for at least 10-15 years. 

In fairness to Starrett, I just looked at their web site and they now state that the current Model 797 has >3500 hours battery life - identical to Mitu. Watch what model you buy & quiz the seller on batt life.


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## tino_ale (Apr 22, 2010)

I have the solar panel 0-6" Mitutoyo caliper :nana:


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## Tom Anderson (Apr 22, 2010)

Here's a photo of the gage drawer at my lathe:






I keep a variety of indicators, micrometers, and calipers handy. These are the ones I use most at the lathe. (I have drawers filled with other measuring tools elsewhere in the shop that I've acquired over the years based on various needs.)

Since so much of what I measure is 1.2" or less, the most used tool is the Mitutoyo Quickmike.






It has a non rotating spindle that moves .400" per revolution (based a glass scale measuring system  )

I like it so much that I actually bought a back-up the other day. I'm a bit of a gage geek!


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## KC2IXE (Apr 22, 2010)

Like that digital unimike


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## mototraxtech (Apr 22, 2010)

Ok so I have decided that I will buy the two quantumikes in the 0-1 and 1-2 range from msc the next time they have a 40% or more sale. I would buy them now but I went racing last weekend and now I'm broke. Interesting thing the the older model mitu that look the same and are not quite as featured cost less retail but you get such a larger discount on the quantumikes that for both of the micrometers its only $15 more to get the new model. Thats when the same discount is added to both. Must mean they cost less to produce and they have a larger profit range. Interesting


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## tino_ale (Apr 22, 2010)

mototraxtech said:


> Ok so I have decided that I will buy the two quantumikes in the 0-1 and 1-2 range from msc the next time they have a 40% or more sale.


I'm like you but haven't decided yet if the quick 2mm spindle feed is worth the extra bucks compared to the more classic 293-344 model.

I find the 293-344 mic for $125 new on ebay, sounds like a good price ?


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## mototraxtech (Apr 22, 2010)

MSC is having a 40% sale today and the new quantumike is only $131.59
The older one with the same part number you listed is also only $102.20 sale only last two days though.


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## tino_ale (Apr 22, 2010)

PM sent


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## darkzero (Apr 22, 2010)

mototraxtech said:


> MSC is having a 40% sale today and the new quantumike is only $131.59


 
Thanks but I just happened to search ebay again last night & found one that was just listed. Sent my offer & got accepted for $120 brand new in box. Finally!


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## wquiles (Apr 23, 2010)

Here is a better picture of the ID gauges that I use along with my Starrett caliper:


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## cmacclel (Apr 24, 2010)

I use the same carbide jawed verniers that Will uses. I have a 1-3" set of Fowler Digi micrometers that I have never used. I have no problems accurately measuring parts (.001) mounted in the lathe chuck. It all comes with experience I guess  

Mac


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## precisionworks (Apr 24, 2010)

> It all comes with experience I guess


+1

The reading on a mic is totally dependent on the pressure applied to the spindle, which is transmitted to the contact tip faces. Take a piece of ground stock like TGP shafting & mic it a dozen times - if the tip pressure is identical each time, the readings will all be the same. If some readings are too low or too high, keep working on technique until all readings are the same, or at least within +/- .0001".

I like the Mitu ratchet spindle & use it by clicking it three times for each & every reading. Some people don't trust a ratchet & prefer to rely on their fingertips, which can work better than any mechanical helper IF those fingertips have the experience to apply identical pressure each time.


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## gadget_lover (Apr 24, 2010)

Click it three times? That's like a torque wrench, tightening till it clicks. I never thought of doing it that way. It makes perfect sense.

I have always done it the wrong way; spin the thimble till it touches and then spin the little knob through a few rotations. That's obviously the wrong way. I wish the instructions had mentioned the right way to use it.

Thanks!

Daniel


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## darkzero (Apr 24, 2010)

gadget_lover said:


> Click it three times? That's like a torque wrench, tightening till it clicks. I never thought of doing it that way. It makes perfect sense.


 
I read about the three click method too & is what I do. A bit different from a torque wrench though. When I was a mechanic I was taught to stop after the first click. I've seen lots of other who click twice & sometimes I can see an extra bit of movement on that second click especially if oil or some type torque grease is not used. Well in my case I don't have clicks, I get beeps & vibrating so there's not mechanism to stop the wrench from overtightening.


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## gadget_lover (Apr 25, 2010)

While it may seem obvious to some folks, the reading of the 1/10000 portion of a micrometer (from the vernier) takes a little practice till it becomes natural.

I found this set of javascript demos on the subject. One is for reading the main scales, the second for reading the vernier. 

Main: ( to .001) 
http://www.stefanelli.eng.br/webpage/en-dial-indicator-inch-graduation-001-in-simulator.html

Vernier ( to .0001 - ten thousandths) 
http://www.stefanelli.eng.br/en/aka-micrometer-caliper-outside-inch-ten-thousandths.html

Daniel


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## PEU (Apr 26, 2010)

wquiles said:


> I know it is a little bit "sacrilegious" but I did cut my larger inch/metric model to a more "handy" size/weight, and this is the one I now use like 90%+ of the time:





> About $600-$1000 at retail, or as low as $25-$100 on eBay



Veeery nice vernier calipers, just searched ebay and not a single one available in the metric or metric/inch version (0-6" / 150mm) within Barry prices, I would purchase one for $25 anytime 


Pablo


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## wquiles (Apr 26, 2010)

I have bought and sold various of them, and I could never find a "good" one or "keeper" for $25 either. The better ones worth using seem to always sell closer to or slightly above $50, with prices closer to the $100 for the really nice, mint ones still in their original, fitted, wood boxes. New ones can still be found on Ebay, but I have yet to see one sell for less than $100 (again, for a new unit). Here we are talking about their standard length units (6" range) - longer ones are even more. Pricing here is for the more common/plain inch models (no letters after the 123). Metric models (M after the 123) do come up from time to time, but not as often. 

The most rare of all, the "combined" inch/metric ones (EM after the 123) - those seem to always command the higher prices on Ebay. The only "gotcha" with those is that you can only do OD with those, since the top scale (normally used for ID) is measuring OD in Metric (you can still measure ID but you have to add the thickness of the nibs in your head instead of it being a direct measurement). The 12" 123EM model that I trimmed in the photo above is one of those rare English/Metric models, and the one I use most of the time. The 12" model is heavier, sturdy, with even larger/thicker bearing surfaces, and it is my favorite of them all. Although still heaver than regular dial/digital calipers, my 6" 123 master caliper still feels wimpy next to my "trimmed" 12" model :devil:

Quick intro to the No 123:
http://www.starrett.com/download/62_123_caliper.pdf


More details, with all of the available models:
http://www.starrett.com/download/246_p108_114.pdf


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## PEU (Apr 26, 2010)

Thanks for the explanation Will, well... when I say 25 I can move a little over that too  but in metric/metric, obviously im not in a hurry, if you guys see one let me know.

Trim this one http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370278849123 to the size I want (and price it proportionally) and we are talking 

Thanks


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## precisionworks (Apr 26, 2010)

Sold yesterday for $50
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Star...Z220592007053QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools

Sold last week for $63
http://cgi.ebay.com/STARRETT-14-INC...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23067f199a

Sold two weeks ago for $76 *in 24" length
*http://cgi.ebay.com/Starrett-Model-...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cee968c05

OK, so I remember the good old days when $25 was high ... now $75 is high  More out there than any shop has room for.


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## PEU (Apr 26, 2010)

already entered a search at myebay for "starrett 123m" will see hows the fishing for the model 

is there a mitutoyo equivalent for this model? or Starrett is THE ONE?


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## precisionworks (Apr 26, 2010)

Mitu also makes a nice vernier ... looks like a dead copy of the 123 

Try this link: http://www.auto-met.com/mitutoyo/caliper/Vernier_Caliper_160_534.htm

And this one: http://www.auto-met.com/mitutoyo/caliper/mitutoyo_caliper_O-32-34.pdf


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## wquiles (Apr 26, 2010)

PEU said:


> already entered a search at myebay for "starrett 123m" will see hows the fishing for the model
> 
> is there a mitutoyo equivalent for this model? or Starrett is THE ONE?



I am not trying to disagree with Barry as he is one of my main advisers/mentors, but like with Ice Cream, we all have our own preferences. I have both the Starrett and the Mitu vernier calipers, and although the Mitu is good, I still like the Starrett "much" better, and find it easier to read - again purely subjective. The only Mitu vernier that I kept was the one with the long jaws since Starrett does not make one, otherwise I would only have the Starretts


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## precisionworks (Apr 26, 2010)

> I have both the Starrett and the Mitu vernier calipers


Same here 

Both are superbly made, tightly constructed and had fitted. My Starrett is the 12" version so it gets used for anything under that dimension, or where the feature is within the reach of the jaws. The Mitu is 18" & has long reach jaws, so it might get used to measure a 1" bore set back from the face.

Another plus for the Mitu is that the name lacks some of the prestige of Starrett, meaning that most anything Mitu sells for less than the equal item from Athol, Massachusetts. If I told you how little the 18" cost, you would laugh ... 

You be the judge


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## wquiles (Apr 26, 2010)

Your Mitu vernier caliper is in "great" shape - certainly looks better than the used one I picked from Ebay. Nice photos Barry :thumbsup:


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## precisionworks (Apr 26, 2010)

Thanks, Will. One of those eBay items that turns out to be truly "like new". Other than replacing the felt inside the case, that's just the way it came.


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## precisionworks (Apr 27, 2010)

Here's one to put on your "do not buy" list ... the SPI 13-610-1






On sale from MSC for about $20, including a hard plastic case. How could anyone go wrong with this?

It eats batteries for breakfast, lunch, dinner & dessert. Even turned off, batt life is <6 months. Guaranteed that when it is most needed for a measurement the batt is dead or dying:sick2:

Rant over


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## saltytri (Apr 27, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Here's one to put on your "do not buy" list ... the SPI 13-610-1
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or, you could buy the same piece when it comes up on sale at HF for half that and then buy a bunch of batteries with the difference. :laughing: 
Then, again, you might want do the smart thing and buy a Mitutoyo on sale for somewhere around $90 and use it for the rest of your long and happy life.


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## tino_ale (Apr 27, 2010)

Before I got my solar Mitutoyo, I had a cheap digital caliper that would NOT turn itself off after a while. If you forgot to turn it off, or it it was turned on by accident in your drawer, it would eat the battery away in no time. :shakehead


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## StrikerDown (Apr 27, 2010)

I have that caliper from HF, Batt lasts about a week with the unit turned off! The batt lasts much longer out of the Caliper! Bought the same size in Starrett uniform and the original batt is going strong for over a year now.

What do you guys think about a Micrometer set like this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130384688703&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


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## tino_ale (Apr 27, 2010)

Without the part numbers, you don't know what you're buying :shrug:


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## StrikerDown (Apr 27, 2010)

tino_ale said:


> Without the part numbers, you don't know what you're buying :shrug:



True, All I can tell is they are series 293. Was hoping someone new about Mitu's. Looks like they are sold now anyway.


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## PEU (Apr 27, 2010)

Barry, do you know the european brand Wolpert? they are known also as Wilson Wolpert (catalog www.ditoma.com.ar/instrumentos.pdf) 
The caliper model 105.20I looks like the starrett, but I know nothing about the quality. Thanks!


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## precisionworks (Apr 27, 2010)

I have no experience with Wolpert-Wilson, but found this on the PM site:

_The Wilson Wolpert's are a good quality import, I do not believe any of them are made in the Netherlands, that's just were the main part of the company is located, I believe. I am pretty sure they are made in China, as is most of their tooling, but as I said before, it is a top quality Chinese made tool. W/W set's their standards higher than places like Harbor Frieght!. I have bought and sold W/W tools and have several for personal use, I am pleased, but they are not the quality of a Mititoyo, B&S or Starrett!. The main thing that I don't like is the lettering/numbering is light and hard to read, whereas a Mit, B&S or Starrett is quite highlighted and easy to read. But for some tools that are not used often, they are fine. Of coarse with a digital readout, you will not have to worry about ease of reading!. Basically, watch the price and figure they are equivalent to a Fowler at the least, just don't pay much more than a Fowler!

_


> What do you guys think about a Micrometer set like this one?


Those are the oldest set of new in box Mitu digitals I've ever seen ... Mitu hasn't made that style in over ten years IIRC. The new ones have better ergonomics & probably a better-faster-more precise encoder, but the quality is still there, no matter the age.


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## PEU (May 12, 2010)

Purchased this lot http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270498351417 and received it today, not sure if I will keep them. But locally selling one of the larger ones (300mm/12") will fetch more than what I paid for the whole lot 

These look like new, not a single scratch. They arent as smooth as a mitutoyo, maybe some deoxit would help.


Pablo


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