# No more nitecore for me.



## dontfearthereaper_20 (Aug 2, 2015)

Both my ea4 and ea8 stopped working and this is not the first time. Both lights I had to send back once already, they are nice lights but the quality is not good. I just ordered a fenix tk41 and fenix e41 to replace the nitecores.


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## Badbeams3 (Aug 2, 2015)

dontfearthereaper_20 said:


> Both my ea4 and ea8 stopped working and this is not the first time. Both lights I had to send back once already, they are nice lights but the quality is not good. I just ordered a fenix tk41 and fenix e41 to replace the nitecores.



I don't blame you. I had my SC600 quit with only light use (pun intended). Giving Zebralight one more chance with my SC5...but if that fails, no more.


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## markr6 (Aug 3, 2015)

For some reason I don't completely trust Nitecore. I don't know why. I have an EA4, EA4w and most recently a TM16. No problems yet, so we'll see.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 3, 2015)

markr6 said:


> For some reason I don't completely trust Nitecore. I don't know why. I have an EA4, EA4w and most recently a TM16. No problems yet, so we'll see.



I don't have any Nitecores, but it seems to be the #1 brand that people complain about on these forums.


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## Stefano (Aug 3, 2015)

Perhaps only some models have reliability problems ?
I have donated many MT21A/MT2A (and are used very frequently) none of these lights had still problems



Now I have purchased 3 Nitecore P12 (different tints) time will tell if they are reliable


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## drmaxx (Aug 3, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I don't have any Nitecores, but it seems to be the #1 brand that people complain about on these forums.



They are probably also one of the brands that are most bought by members of these forums. Additionally, they are thriving on the notion of always having the latest and greatest in light technology. This means that they constantly bringing novel stuff on the market that excites people without having really the time to improve on the mistakes. Once the lessons from the first generation is in there is already a new development in the pipeline and a second improved generation is cold coffee. No wonder we are hearing about a lot of issues - this is the price to pay for this innovation game that we all so excited about. And frankly - it can not be too bad as many people seem to be happy about their product.


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## 18650 (Aug 3, 2015)

dontfearthereaper_20 said:


> Both my ea4 and ea8 stopped working and this is not the first time. Both lights I had to send back once already, they are nice lights but the quality is not good. I just ordered a fenix tk41 and fenix e41 to replace the nitecores.


 What symptoms did you have? Press the power switch and the LED only glows at a firefly level while voltage indicator starts flashing?


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## HEDP (Aug 3, 2015)

Stefano said:


> *Perhaps only some models have reliability problems ?*
> I have donated many MT21A/MT2A (and are used very frequently) none of these lights had still problems
> 
> 
> ...





Funny you said that. When I was looking at flatscreen tv's Consumer Reports said it mattered what size you got even if it was the same model.


Like the Sony VX1 in 54" would be fine but 56" would have reliability issues. Strange.


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## HotWire (Aug 3, 2015)

None for me, either! My EC20 died last week. Not replaced it yet.... Not looking at Nitecore. That flashlight got very little use....


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## Stefano (Aug 3, 2015)

HEDP said:


> Funny you said that. When I was looking at flatscreen tv's Consumer Reports said it mattered what size you got even if it was the same model.
> 
> 
> Like the Sony VX1 in 54" would be fine but 56" would have reliability issues. Strange.



The lights are not all equal.
Same brand but different projects (even different components)
There are models more reliable, some not.
This can also happen in the automotive industry


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## LeafSamurai (Aug 3, 2015)

I have had one Nitecore light fail on me and they replaced it with a brand new light within two weeks. They seem to be the most popular and most talked about brands on most flashlight-related forums so it's not a surprise to hear that there are more stories about their light failing or not working. I will still buy Nitecore as they have proven themselves with their CS when dealing with me, but YMMV. It's your money so it's up to you if you still want to buy from them or not.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 3, 2015)

Oh, sure, I have my fourth piece of Nitecore gear coming in tomorrow and now you tell me. I am soooooooo hosed.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 3, 2015)

I probably own 15 Nitecore lights and about the same number of lights from Fenix. I don't purchase the entry level lights, so I think that the manufacturers take more care in building a $100 light than a $40 light. I'm not making excuses for the manufacturers, but the build process on low cost lights isn't conductive to the highest of quality.

The only light that I have that failed was a Surefire M952TVN, but that was my fault when the hand guard that it was mounted to went splat onto the concrete.

I think the majority of problems with any of the name branded lights is cold solder joints. One low level drop is usually enough to break the connection, and it don't work anymore.


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## chaosdsm (Aug 3, 2015)

HotWire said:


> None for me, either! My EC20 died last week. Not replaced it yet.... Not looking at Nitecore. That flashlight got very little use....



Sad to hear... My mom has used her EC20 about 20 - 30 minutes every day (sometimes more) since January & no sign of problems so far. I've owned the SRT7 for more than a year & also use daily, sometimes draining two 3400mAh Panasonic's in a single day. I've dropped it in dirt, dropped it in a puddle of watter, stepped on it, froze it, & its still going like a champ.

Even Surefire has lemons...


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## ForrestChump (Aug 3, 2015)

They have a long history of spotty reliability.

Their parent company Sysmax is flaky as well.

Stick with Fenix.


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## T-roc87 (Aug 3, 2015)

I know when i was considering an EA8 the nail in the coffin was seeing a very thin piece of metal that the emitter sits on which brought up proper heat sinking concerns. Though i believe it was found to be sufficient. Still, i went with tk41 and have been very happy. I also had an orginal ea4 that i replaced with a sunwayman D40a after the whole ballooning switch problems. Been happy with the D40a as well. I only have a mt21 now which seems like an ok light overall.


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## CelticCross74 (Aug 4, 2015)

ah the older Nitecore problems still rear their ugly heads! Ive had a love hate relationship with their gear. Ive had it with their BS marketing claims which they are notorious for and do my research here before I buy. I do admit I have not had one fail on me. Ive had the SRT7 since it first came out and have used the hell out of it and its still fine. I like how using 2xRCR in my 6 and 7 adds 100 lumens each and changes the dynamics of the beams. The only thing that has changed is that the smart ring on my 7 has actually gotten smoother with use. If anything at all Nitecore needs to revamp the entire SRT line with the latest HI and HD or U3 emitters...a SRT7 XP-L HI sounds like itd slay...Id buy it


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## Jash (Aug 4, 2015)

Well, I've had 100% of the Nitecores I purchased die. Two even after being 'fixed' by Nitecore. I own 26 Fenix products and only had one fail on me. It was an EO5 that got dropped so many times I don't know how it lasted so long. The final blow was a 12 foot drop onto concrete. It actually still worked, but only put out a few lumens.

I don't even look at Nitecore anymore.


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## pjandyho (Aug 4, 2015)

Nitecore has been pretty crappy for me. Many of my purchases died just a few times of using it and I don't even drive my lights on max all the time. My EA8w which was less than a year old died for no reasons too and would only come on in firefly mode no matter what I did to it. Nitecore said they will charge me for shipping and handling since I had purchased it from the U.S. and not through my local distribution channel. What a piece of BS! It is a product made by them and they should honor it. I don't care if I purchased it from Mars or Venus, as long as it is branded Nitecore then they fix it free. It is now a paperweight sitting at home. I just purchased a TM16 and I hope this model will not undergo cheap quality standards just like all their other cheapies. The TM series IHMO has been pretty well made across the board and we shall see about the TM16.


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 4, 2015)

T-roc87 said:


> I know when i was considering an EA8 the nail in the coffin was seeing a very thing piece of metal that the emitter sits on which brought up proper heat sinking concerns. Though i believe it was found to be sufficient



It was the tear down that had me concerned too. It made the decision between that and the D40A easy. Sure it worked but you never know how much damage it was doing in the long run. Lazy was my thought on the matter.

That said, haven't given up on them


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## CelticCross74 (Aug 4, 2015)

never thought Id say this but Im gonna throw down for the new gen Nitecores (2015). My MH20 has been the best Nitecore I have used or had. Its perfect from end to stubby end and output claims seem to be dead on and I love the switch. It made my P12 obsolete. Im hoping for revamped SRTs and for this new school seeming QC continue from them


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 4, 2015)

CelticCross74 said:


> ...but Im gonna throw down for the new gen Nitecores (2015).



The forth piece of the new generation (???) Nitecore product arrived today. Currently charging the batteries.


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## AZPops (Aug 4, 2015)

Nevur mind ... Off topic.


Pops


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 4, 2015)

Save the aggravation and look here. http://www.ebay.com/itm/361174838913?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT.

Well made cord that uses vulcanized cables instead of shrink wrap over the 18 gauge cables used by Nitecore.


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## CelticCross74 (Aug 4, 2015)

thats for the chargers I take it? The cords that came with my i4 and d4 were fine. Shrink wrap? Man Nitecore has really hosed a lot of people


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 4, 2015)

I checked. Both ends. Our cable is a very well made cable. This is the type of cable you buy by the case and throw into the box along with the charger.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 4, 2015)

Hey, they're Chinese, they're used to cheap.

I priced a similar cable set used by Nitecore on Alababa. Can't say 100% sure, but they were less than 30 cents each purchasing 10,000 or more.

The cable I linked to is a well made fine strand copper fully molded. I've got atleast 8 devises that all use the same cable. I like them due to construction as well as length (6 footers).

Having extra power cables are like having extra BNC cables, you never have too many.


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## 100eyes (Aug 4, 2015)

I abandoned Nitecore when my old EA4 had the swelling button issue. Nitecore thought I should pay all shipping to have the light fixed, so to the dump it went.

Recently after receiving a faulty Olight M3XS and terrible customer service from Going Gear, I'm questioning getting further into this hobby at all.


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## LowFlux (Aug 4, 2015)

100eyes said:


> I'm questioning getting further into this hobby at all.


Check out Vinh and Oveready. You pay more than an inexpensive consumer light but you get what you pay for.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 4, 2015)

CelticCross74 said:


> never thought Id say this but Im gonna throw down for the new gen Nitecores (2015). My MH20 has been the best Nitecore I have used or had. Its perfect from end to stubby end and output claims seem to be dead on and I love the switch. It made my P12 obsolete. Im hoping for revamped SRTs and for this new school seeming QC continue from them



Don't do it. 

They are the same company they have always been. 

Their QC is no different. Save youself some time and money.

Get a Fenix.


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## JoeSW (Aug 5, 2015)

This is disconcerting. I'm using an MH20 as my EDC and a TM16 and tube light are on their way. I'm hoping I'll have better luck than some of you guys.....


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## snoop75 (Aug 5, 2015)

Concerning indeed. After a couple of years of not buying lights I finally convinced myself to purchase the MH20 yesterday, only to read this thread today. I've been using Fenix, SWM & Convoy (budget light) without any problems over the last few years.

Here's hoping for no issues with the MH20.

Bugger!!!


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## lightfooted (Aug 5, 2015)

Well my P20UV is working just fine after nearly a year on the job. The power cable that came with my charger is also of good quality. I would wonder if some of the poor quality cables people received were the result of someone in the supply chain deciding they wanted to swap out their old crappy cable.


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## markr6 (Aug 5, 2015)

I guess it's a mix of luck, QC and maybe even the specific model you buy.

I'm sure there are people that bought one of the BMWs that caught fire awhile back. They probably have it in their mind that BMW sucks and will never buy another.


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## blackwatch (Aug 5, 2015)

I haven't been on the forum in awhile, but came back because my Nitecore DX10 seems to be failing. It blows through batteries in what feels like seconds. I was going to try cleaning it all up (it's not really dirty or beatup), but maybe it's dying instead

Now the question is - what to get next (oh, a terrible question to have)? I'll go read a bunch of threads. Sorry to hear the brand isn't terribly reliable.


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## WarRaven (Aug 5, 2015)

The only one I'd chance, just because I like ATR, is the MH20.
P12 with charger and battery is on sale for less then last year's pd35, still wouldn't touch it.

Forrest, ironic you said that to CC74, he's already a Fenix fan, amongst others ☺

Another I won't touch is Thrunight or however it's spelled. Too many instances of Turbo getting flaky across their line up.
One light had production halted completely as others have had similar issues as seen on these forums.
Just a bit too common IMO.


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## more_vampires (Aug 5, 2015)

The only Nitecore product I've had fail on me was an i4 charger.

I EDC a Nitecore Tube and have a P25 sitting next to me as I type this. I keep nitecore stuff handy.


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## jjp888 (Aug 5, 2015)

snoop75 said:


> Concerning indeed. After a couple of years of not buying lights I finally convinced myself to purchase the MH20 yesterday, only to read this thread today. I've been using Fenix, SWM & Convoy (budget light) without any problems over the last few years.
> 
> Here's hoping for no issues with the MH20.
> 
> Bugger!!!


I too just ordered an mh20.From all the initial reviews this flashlight seems to be a well built nitecore.Although dont know how it will cope up in future.Just hoping it will be a game changing one 
from nitecore.


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## jjp888 (Aug 5, 2015)

what happened!another cable issue or what?


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 5, 2015)

snoop75 said:


> Concerning indeed. After a couple of years of not buying lights I finally convinced myself to purchase the MH20 yesterday, only to read this thread today. I've been using Fenix, SWM & Convoy (budget light) without any problems over the last few years.
> 
> Here's hoping for no issues with the MH20.
> 
> Bugger!!!



From reading hundreds of Amazon reviews, pretty much, one can expect 15%-20% (one/two stars combined) negatives for most products. Unfortunately, stuff happens.


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## more_vampires (Aug 5, 2015)

Lol, "I ordered the wrong thing. One star! Amazon should be crucified! How dare they ship me the wrong thing when that's what I ordered!"


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## markr6 (Aug 5, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Lol, "I ordered the wrong thing. One star! Amazon should be crucified! How dare they ship me the wrong thing when that's what I ordered!"



LOL pretty much what I was going to say in so many words. But I've ranted enough on that in other threads, so I'll just give this a 1+


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## 18650 (Aug 5, 2015)

markr6 said:


> I guess it's a mix of luck, QC and maybe even the specific model you buy. I'm sure there are people that bought one of the BMWs that caught fire awhile back. They probably have it in their mind that BMW sucks and will never buy another.


 I don't think it's a matter of QC but more of a matter of either poor design or sourcing of components when multiple models (EA4, EA8, EC25, plus others) all fail while exhibiting exactly the same symptoms.


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## markr6 (Aug 5, 2015)

18650 said:


> I don't think it's a matter of QC but more of a matter of either poor design or sourcing of components when multiple models (EA4, EA8, EC25, plus others) all fail while exhibiting exactly the same symptoms.



The ballooning switch is a good example of that. I haven't had the problem on either of mine...but I never use them anymore so I guess I don't care much.


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## Sherbona (Aug 5, 2015)

For this tier of companies, I think a problem can come up regardless of the brand, but should be much less than budget ones. I've had no problems with any of my Nitecores, SRT7(x2), Chameleons (CR6, CB6, CU6, CG6), P36, TM26, HC50, HC90, Tube and MH20. This is despite the SRT 7s and Chameleons having been dropped at speed onto pavement or cement several times from my bicycle. Given my success with Nitecores I certainly see no reason to avoid. I also have many Fenix lights too, no problems except for one (BC30, the 'burst' mode no longer works, but that alone doesn't mean I should avoid future Fenix purchases). No problems yet with my Klarus RS-20s either.


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## WarRaven (Aug 5, 2015)

If you were the only person to experience the issue, yup could overlook that as a one off.
Multiple instances not so much.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 5, 2015)

Sherbona said:


> For this tier of companies, I think a problem can come up regardless of the brand, but should be much less than budget ones. I've had no problems with any of my Nitecores, SRT7(x2), Chameleons (CR6, CB6, CU6, CG6), P36, TM26, HC50, HC90, Tube and MH20. This is despite the SRT 7s and Chameleons having been dropped at speed onto pavement or cement several times from my bicycle. Given my success with Nitecores I certainly see no reason to avoid. I also have many Fenix lights too, no problems except for one (BC30, the 'burst' mode no longer works, but that alone doesn't mean I should avoid future Fenix purchases). No problems yet with my Klarus RS-20s either.




Luck of the draw on this one. Happy they work for you as advertised. 8 years reading CPF a very nice chunk of Nitecore users have problems.

_Hypothetical:_ It's possible to have 10 Fenix lights & 10 Nitecores. All 10 Nitecores function flawlessly while 3 of the Fenix's are lemons. While a very unlikely scenario, electronics by their very nature are prone to failure, no brand is excluded.

That said, *Fenix overwhelming has the better track record for reliability over Nitecore*. 

For those of you that are unnerved, my sympathy. It's all part of the hobby and if your that bothered, sell it instead of driving yourself nuts as us flashaholics have a tendency to do.....:tinfoil:


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## LowFlux (Aug 5, 2015)

Another consideration - how many flashaholics buy a flashlight, use it for a few days/weeks/months and then replace it with another? Is this site a good representation when there are people here who have more flashlights then there are hours in the night? Sure the shelf-queen Nitecore worked well for the couple of weeks they used it and then they bought a different light and it became their EDC while the Nitecore sits idly by.

I think it's hard to "take a sample" of failures from this forum for that reason.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 5, 2015)

LowFlux said:


> Another consideration - how many flashaholics buy a flashlight, use it for a few days/weeks/months and then replace it with another? Is this site a good representation when there are people here who have more flashlights then there are hours in the night? Sure the shelf-queen Nitecore worked well for the couple of weeks they used it and then they bought a different light and it became their EDC while the Nitecore sits idly by.
> 
> I think it's hard to "take a sample" of failures from this forum for that reason.




Excellent point. I have also pondered this as well.


Although, there are a fair bit of "users" out there.... Fenix and Nitecore are pretty popular.... enough for me to know which one I would buy.


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## more_vampires (Aug 5, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> That said, *Fenix overwhelming has the better track record for reliability over Nitecore*.


Okay, okay. There's only one way to fix this. Everyone send me all of your Nitecore products. If you don't want them, don't throw them away. I'll take them.

MORE NITECORE FOR ME!


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## WarRaven (Aug 5, 2015)

I'll take a donated MH20 in s heartbeat too!!!
But ask me to drop $100 on it or a Fenix or Olight, 
and it's going to one of the other first.

When I'm good and covered with lights, then I'll hit up NC.
Maybe couple in between, but no big dollars.


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## Sherbona (Aug 5, 2015)

LowFlux said:


> Another consideration - how many flashaholics buy a flashlight, use it for a few days/weeks/months and then replace it with another? Is this site a good representation when there are people here who have more flashlights then there are hours in the night? Sure the shelf-queen Nitecore worked well for the couple of weeks they used it and then they bought a different light and it became their EDC while the Nitecore sits idly by.
> 
> I think it's hard to "take a sample" of failures from this forum for that reason.


Other peoples' nitecores may be shelf-queens. Mine sure aren't. The SRT 7s and Chameleon lines have been superb despite coming off my bike handlebars at speed, hitting pavement or cement sidewalks and curbs etc... The MH20 is too new but seems good so far.


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## Sherbona (Aug 5, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Luck of the draw on this one. Happy they work for you as advertised. 8 years reading CPF a very nice chunk of Nitecore users have problems.
> 
> _Hypothetical:_ It's possible to have 10 Fenix lights & 10 Nitecores. All 10 Nitecores function flawlessly while 3 of the Fenix's are lemons. While a very unlikely scenario, electronics by their very nature are prone to failure, no brand is excluded.
> 
> ...



Fixed it for you.  (FWIW, I like my nitecore and fenix lights, both make good products albeit at non-budget prices)


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## LowFlux (Aug 5, 2015)

Sherbona said:


> Other peoples' nitecores may be shelf-queens. Mine sure aren't. The SRT 7s and Chameleon lines have been superb despite coming off my bike handlebars at speed, hitting pavement or cement sidewalks and curbs etc... The MH20 is too new but seems good so far.


I'm discussing how it might not be easy to say "I see more failures from brand X" when a lot of people here might only use their brand X flashlight until the next new light comes along.


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## WarRaven (Aug 5, 2015)

Ambiguities a stay I suspect?


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 5, 2015)

Reliability is a high priority to me. 

As a newbie to this game, I researched hard, and then purchased the *Nitecore P36*. My intention had been to buy a Zebralight H600Fw, but as a walk-in at Illumn in San Jose, I was disappointed to learn that their stock of the Zebralight models I asked about was zero.

No problem. I had also researched a second choice, the P36. There was no chance I was going to keep the money in my pocket. 

The P36 is a wonderful flashlight that hits on almost everything it was designed for. 


A great neutral-white MT-G2 emitter. 
Ten well-spaced modes ranging between a nominal 2 and 2000 lumens. 
A splendid user interface that uses a simple mode dial to select any output level. 
Direct access to low, high, and strobe from off. 
Direct access to strobe from any mode when on. 
Good runtimes on 2x 18650. With 10 levels, you have great control over battery life. 
The P36 is a fine general purpose flashlight with a wide hot spot and good flood characteristics. On its highest output levels, it also has decent throw. ANSI FL 1 ratings are 22,300cd and 300m. The only issue I have right now is its high parasitic drain. Selfbuilt measured standby current at ~2.5mA. 

That leaves only one big question: reliability. I'll just have to wait to find out about that. Hope I don't have the same bad luck some of the posters here have described!


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## CelticCross74 (Aug 5, 2015)

I have been a Fenix customer and fan just about as long as they have been in business. My new 2015 TK35 is phenomenal the beam is perfect for a mid sized high output general purpose light kinda like how I feel the Olight SR52 has a perfect beam for a large sized general purpose high ouput LED light. Have 7 Eagletacs and love them all. Have the bigger Javelots, R40A and SR52 and have been blown away by them all. Got a couple Jetbeams which are built like tanks the new XP-L WL-S1 is also amazing. SRA40 has a beam nearly as good as the SR52. Only have 1 Sunwayman in the D40A but its been a delight to own. As for Nitecore I had a bad habit of falling for their BS marketing. I remember counting the days down till the SRT7 came out. Got it the day it became available. Something always seemed off. It wasnt as bright as most of my lights despite the 960 lumen claim. The smart ring is perfectly designed and built in my copy and is one of my most used lights over the years. Then I read the SRT7 review by the great Selfbuilt and had a lot of my questions answered. Out went an order for some 700mah Orbtronic 16340's once I got them charged them up and dropped them in the 7 to my eyes the dynamics of the beam changed totally. Now it throws further on top of being noticeably to my eyes brighter. As an experiment I ordered a couple more 16340's for my SRT6 and got the same impressive result. Selfbuilts numbers are actually pretty accurate Ive read through his lightbox set up etc. still even adding 100 lumens with RCR's on the 6 and 7 still doesnt bring them close enough to their advertised numbers for me. You advertise 960 lumens I expect either 960 OTF lumens or within + or - 12 percent.


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## 18650 (Aug 5, 2015)

LowFlux said:


> Another consideration - how many flashaholics buy a flashlight, use it for a few days/weeks/months and then replace it with another? Is this site a good representation when there are people here who have more flashlights then there are hours in the night? Sure the shelf-queen Nitecore worked well for the couple of weeks they used it and then they bought a different light and it became their EDC while the Nitecore sits idly by. I think it's hard to "take a sample" of failures from this forum for that reason.


 My EA8 was basically a "shelf queen" but it still died. That mirrors the story given by others.


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## Tesla (Aug 5, 2015)

I don't think there's any statistically meaningful reason to believe Nitecore is better or worse than any comparably priced product. 58 anecdotal posts (not all of which report issues)....out of thousands of flashlights sold. I'm sure if someone posted something negative about Fenix, others would join in....pack mentality.


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## CelticCross74 (Aug 5, 2015)

NC CS has been useless to me. The chintzy cheap plastic "tactical ring" on my SRT7 broke in half a long time ago have been in contact with NC CS multiple times for a replacement only to end up never hearing from them again until I email them again. Sheer BS the SRT7 isnt cheap. Of course some have great NC CS stories but my own is pathetic. As for Fenix CS Ive only had 1 Fenix ever fail on me out of dozens of Fenix Ive owned over the years it was a beaten to death PD35 the low stopped working and the next two modes would flicker out. I contacted Fenix CS they sent me an address in New York to send the light to and quoted me 4-7 weeks for turn around time. Less than 14 days later I had my PD35 back and working perfectly no me having to pay for a single thing either way.


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 5, 2015)

18650 said:


> My EA8 was basically a "shelf queen" but it still died. That mirrors the story given by others.




What are some of the common causes of this sort of failure?

Oxidation that impedes an already flakey connection somewhere, perhaps in a switch?

Standby operation leading to a circuit failure somewhere?


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## CelticCross74 (Aug 5, 2015)

from what I have read its just bad soldering and weak connections


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## scs (Aug 5, 2015)

I speculate that the frequency of Nitecore product failures is getting blown out of proportion. Despite seemingly having a less than stellar reputation, Nitecore is still in business. Thriving it appears! In addition, Nitecore continues to be a popular brand on CPF. If Nitecore quality is really that bad, why are people still buying their lights? Why is Nitecore still in business? Are people really that dumb, irrational, or loyal to the brand? Maybe Nitecore is really no better and no worse.


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## scs (Aug 5, 2015)

In case they ARE that bad, then c'mon guys, do everyone a favor, everyone on CPF, fellow flashaholics, fellow consumers in general. Stop buying Nitecore. Don't keep feeding bad businesses.


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 5, 2015)

CelticCross74 said:


> from what I have read its just bad soldering and weak connections




That sounds plausible, but what I don't get is how a bad solder joint could suddenly crack or break in a non-moving flashlight. Wouldn't that usually require some sort of motion, if only the normal operation of the flashlight? Obviously, an impact could crack a solder joint.

The light "18650" was talking about was just sitting on a shelf!


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 5, 2015)

KeepingItLight said:


> That sounds plausible, but what I don't get is how a bad solder joint could suddenly crack or break in a non-moving flashlight. Wouldn't that usually require some sort of motion, if only the normal operation of the flashlight? Obviously, an impact could crack a solder joint.
> 
> The light "18650" was talking about was just sitting on a shelf!



You can place blame on your local environmentalist for RHoS legislation. 

For those that don't know, RHoS is the reduction of hazardous substances act. Until 10 years or so, solder was lead, and a small amount of tin or antimony. 

Lead is now a dirty word. Lead was replaced by tin based solders which are environmentally good. Unfortunately tin solder exposed to moisture grows whiskers. When the whiskers touch, circuits short out. The only way around this issue is to conformal coat the soldered joints. 

Production soldering is done via flow coating. If the temperature of the solder is off just a little bit, the solder doesn't have the duct ability and it cracks. 

A few years back, either Play Stations or Xboxes had this problem. Some nVidia graphics cards also suffer this problem. The problem can be temporally fixed by reheating the devise to reflow the solder. The only sure fix is repair by lead based solder.


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## 18650 (Aug 5, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> You can place blame on your local environmentalist for RHoS legislation. For those that don't know, RHoS is the reduction of hazardous substances act. Until 10 years or so, solder was lead, and a small amount of tin or antimony. Lead is now a dirty word. Lead was replaced by tin based solders which are environmentally good. Unfortunately tin solder exposed to moisture grows whiskers. When the whiskers touch, circuits short out. The only way around this issue is to conformal coat the soldered joints. Production soldering is done via flow coating. If the temperature of the solder is off just a little bit, the solder doesn't have the duct ability and it cracks. A few years back, either Play Stations or Xboxes had this problem. Some nVidia graphics cards also suffer this problem. The problem can be temporally fixed by reheating the devise to reflow the solder. The only sure fix is repair by lead based solder.


 That's an easy scapegoat but it's a level playing field and none of my other RoHS compliant lights have failed in such a way. Do we actually know it's poor soldering that does the Nitecore's in?


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## 18650 (Aug 5, 2015)

scs said:


> I speculate that the frequency of Nitecore product failures is getting blown out of proportion. Despite seemingly having a less than stellar reputation, Nitecore is still in business. Thriving it appears! In addition, Nitecore continues to be a popular brand on CPF. If Nitecore quality is really that bad, why are people still buying their lights? Why is Nitecore still in business? Are people really that dumb, irrational, or loyal to the brand? Maybe Nitecore is really no better and no worse.


 I personally have only the EA8 as one. I bought it because I was looking at the TK41 but the neutral emitter of the EA8 won me over. I suspect the lower pricing may have won others over. The EA8 vs the TK41 for example is almost 25% lower in upfront cost.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 6, 2015)

Here are some simple FACTS that people don't like. Im going to use a little OT to make my point. For example, I don't like my fat gut, doesn't mean its not there.

FACT:

Nitecore makes flaky lights - 8 solid years of CPF research backs that up. A lot of CPF will back that up. There are many instances of crap warranty experiences as well. They also have stolen from CPF members. The waters may be murky here, but if so desired I can provide other examples.

FACT:

SureFire, through great effort, is now a *solid* hit or miss manufacturer who dumps heaps of money into marketing. Their R&D seems feeble at best and their QC appears non existent. Then they let the very friendly a good natured folks in tech support clean up the mess. They have not produced a single model in the past 2-3 years ( PK time? Not sure?) that has not had significant and widespread reliability and functionality issues. Many seem to go unresolved for months and in rare cases, years.


These are facts we don't like. The proof is in the Google. Just because I don't like brussel sprouts doesn't make them disappear off my plate ( Likely contributing to the gut that I don't like, but is still there, despite the fact I don't like it. ) I get a little tired of the excuses when you can simply use your keyboard and invoke a little free thought into your fact gathering to form a more well rounded opinion. 


Don't tell me it's a numbers game. There are manufactures out there with thousands of lights in service with next to nothing of reported failures. There are also ones that have 0 warranty complaints. ZERO.


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## snowlover91 (Aug 6, 2015)

Fwiw I haven't had any issues with Nitecore failures with my oldest light being a 2009 Nitecore D10. Gave an EA41w to a buddy who uses it on camping trips every few weeks and his is working fine also. My favorite lights they made were the PD series; these did have a lot of QC issues for some members here but if you got one that worked well out of the box then it will last a long time. They've done better in recent years to up their QC similar to how Zebralight seems to have upped their game as well.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 6, 2015)

snowlover91 said:


> Fwiw I haven't had any issues with Nitecore failures with my oldest light being a 2009 Nitecore D10. Gave an EA41w to a buddy who uses it on camping trips every few weeks and his is working fine also. My favorite lights they made were the PD series; these did have a lot of QC issues for some members here but if you got one that worked well out of the box then it will last a long time. They've done better in recent years to up their QC similar to how Zebralight seems to have upped their game as well.



Had 2 D10's

Hardly used, 

I don't doubt there were solid designs behind those lights and some have potential to work for years, the consistency was the problem...you older CPF folks remember the ones that were snapping in half? ha...


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## ForrestChump (Aug 6, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Okay, okay. There's only one way to fix this. Everyone send me all of your Nitecore products. If you don't want them, don't throw them away. I'll take them.
> 
> MORE NITECORE FOR ME!



Nope, Im sending you Brussel sprouts, only they may not exist, because I don't like them.


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## WarRaven (Aug 6, 2015)

I've been seeing some here, having to use that Zebra light warranty, that's alarming to me.
Not so to many here though, given the terrain are these bumps overlooked too I wonder.


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## CelticCross74 (Aug 6, 2015)

go as far back on CPF as you can and the overwhelming result are NC complaints out of all brand complaints. Why are they still in business? Because not all high output LED buyers are flashaholics they just equate LED lights with being very bright and then may consider form factor at most. The AR coating on my first P12 stopped halfway across the lens it drove me up the wall but it still works. MH20 and the other 2015 models seem to be a new gen of NC that for now seems to have gotten many manufacturing kinks out of the way


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## snowlover91 (Aug 6, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Had 2 D10's
> 
> Hardly used,
> 
> I don't doubt there were solid designs behind those lights and some have potential to work for years, the consistency was the problem...you older CPF folks remember the ones that were snapping in half? ha...



Ah yes I remember the issue of some of them having a thin wall and snapping in half. I also remember the issues some had with using 14500 batteries which fried the circuit board of some lights as well as the piston switching issues. Their QC back then was pretty bad and was really put in the spotlight with the PD series. However the ones which worked did work well and all my PD lights in my collection work great even now. My D10 I've used about 6 years straight and finally retired it from EDC use after breaking the glass lens. The consistency was definitely the problem back then but the good ones without the switch issues/thin wall were solid and work quite well. 

Although Nitecore has had a history of QC issues if you look at their overall progress you will see they are upping their QC control and consistency as well. The lights I've bought from them in the past 2 years have all been excellent with no problems. My SRT5, EA41W given to a friend, Ex11.2, and D11.2 lights all work great with no switch or QC issues. I believe if you look on the forum you'll find that 2015 has been a significant step up with their consistency and quality control vs previous years, especially 2008-2012 which seemed to be the worst years for them with things gradually improving thereafter.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 6, 2015)

snowlover91 said:


> Ah yes I remember the issue of some of them having a thin wall and snapping in half. I also remember the issues some had with using 14500 batteries which fried the circuit board of some lights as well as the piston switching issues. Their QC back then was pretty bad and was really put in the spotlight with the PD series. However the ones which worked did work well and all my PD lights in my collection work great even now. My D10 I've used about 6 years straight and finally retired it from EDC use after breaking the glass lens. The consistency was definitely the problem back then but the good ones without the switch issues/thin wall were solid and work quite well.
> 
> Although Nitecore has had a history of QC issues if you look at their overall progress you will see they are upping their QC control and consistency as well. The lights I've bought from them in the past 2 years have all been excellent with no problems. My SRT5, EA41W given to a friend, Ex11.2, and D11.2 lights all work great with no switch or QC issues. I believe if you look on the forum you'll find that 2015 has been a significant step up with their consistency and quality control vs previous years, especially 2008-2012 which seemed to be the worst years for them with things gradually improving thereafter.





Hey bro, I don't know who you think you are with your rational and thoughtful response...  

That said, I have stood corrected before in the QC department with out of date research of ZebraLight....So the Forrest of Gump, at the suprise of many CPF members, _may _not be totally infallible_. _You might just have a valid observation on _very current_ QC.

That said, you steal from CPF members, you steal from me..... no soup for you!


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## Crazyeddiethefirst (Aug 6, 2015)

I can only base my experience with Nitecore on the 7 or 8 lights I own. The EC11 & EA11 have been in the EDC rotation since purchase and so far they are flawless. I also like to Lego the body from my EC20 & the head from the EC11 so I have 960 lumens and 18650 runtimes. I bought my Sunwayman D40 after I read about the switch issues with the NiteCores, but all of their new stuff reflects a solid response to a previous lack of good QC. As of today, I have no qualms recommending NiteCore. Just my 2 cents based on my actual use of their products, not based on anyone else's experience...


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## campingnut (Aug 6, 2015)

I have used my D11 every night for the past five years with zero issues. I use it as a night light next to my bed. I turn it on, tail stand her up to bounce off the ceiling, then read in bed for 30-60 mins. Sometimes I fall asleep and she runs all night. I also knock it off my nightstand onto the hardwood floors quite often. I know this is anecdotal, but this light has been solid.


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## xzel87 (Aug 6, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> You can place blame on your local environmentalist for RHoS legislation.
> 
> For those that don't know, RHoS is the reduction of hazardous substances act. Until 10 years or so, solder was lead, and a small amount of tin or antimony.
> 
> ...



I had to stick my laptop motherboard into the oven at 350 degree celcius for 15 minutes to get it fixed. Didn't believe the method when I read it on the Internet, but I tried it anyway and it actually works. It's been baked for 3 times now in the past 2 years so I guess it's not a permanent solution and whatever problem it was having is getting more severe.

After some research, the original problem was that due to repeated heating (expand) and cooling (contract) of the solder points/joints micro cracks are formed in the solder itself and the cracks might get large enough to cut connections. Baking it reflows the solder and reestablishes connection.

I guess this could also happen to flashlights, with repeated heating and cooling through normal usage (extended turbo runs maybe?). Perhaps this is why potted electronics fare better?

The only NC product I have is the MT21A and it is still working fine almost 10 months usage.


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## CelticCross74 (Aug 6, 2015)

A good source of NC technical info is on Vinhs page of the forum. Dig deep enough and youll see examples of shoddy soldering and cheap as possible components in almost all NC's save for the Tiny Monster series that hes done. Only now is he cracking open NC lights regularly they are all 2015 models.


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 6, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> Lead was replaced by tin based solders which are environmentally good. Unfortunately tin solder exposed to moisture grows whiskers. When the whiskers touch, circuits short out. The only way around this issue is to conformal coat the soldered joints.
> 
> Production soldering is done via flow coating. If the temperature of the solder is off just a little bit, the solder doesn't have the duct ability and it cracks.





xzel87 said:


> After some research, the original problem was that due to repeated heating (expand) and cooling (contract) of the solder points/joints micro cracks are formed in the solder itself and the cracks might get large enough to cut connections. Baking it reflows the solder and reestablishes connection.





CelticCross74 said:


> A good source of NC technical info is on Vinhs page of the forum. Dig deep enough and youll see examples of shoddy soldering and cheap as possible components in almost all NC's save for the Tiny Monster series that hes done. Only now is he cracking open NC lights regularly they are all 2015 models.



Thanks, guys. This is good information.


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## xzel87 (Aug 6, 2015)

KeepingItLight said:


> Thanks, guys. This is good information.



My experience is only with my laptop motherboard though . Can't say the same for Flashlight circuits...to that effect I've never had any lights fail on me yet,had Water enter my t10s reflector but that was due to poor oring placement,easily fixed.


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## thedoc007 (Aug 6, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Luck of the draw on this one. Happy they work for you as advertised. 8 years reading CPF a very nice chunk of Nitecore users have problems.
> 
> _Hypothetical:_ It's possible to have 10 Fenix lights & 10 Nitecores. All 10 Nitecores function flawlessly while 3 of the Fenix's are lemons. While a very unlikely scenario, electronics by their very nature are prone to failure, no brand is excluded.
> 
> That said, *Fenix overwhelming has the better track record for reliability over Nitecore*.



If you are going to make a statement like that, you better have information to back it up. While I agree that anecdotal evidence is not ideal, often it is all we have. You can check my signature to see my Nitecore lights...more than any other brand, some have been used for years, and not a single problem. Whereas I've had many fewer Fenix lights, and yet more problems. Do I think that proves Nitecore is more reliable than Fenix?...no. But neither should you claim that you know much about the reliability of either brand if all you have to go on is self-reported anecdotal evidence from a forum.


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## more_vampires (Aug 6, 2015)

Tesla said:


> I don't think there's any statistically meaningful reason to believe Nitecore is better or worse than any comparably priced product. 58 anecdotal posts (not all of which report issues)....out of thousands of flashlights sold. I'm sure if someone posted something negative about Fenix, others would join in....pack mentality.


I'd wager that NC has moved a few more than "thousands," sir. 



ForrestChump said:


> There are manufactures out there with thousands of lights in service with next to nothing of reported failures. There are also ones that have 0 warranty complaints. ZERO.


Hit a search engine and you find stuff. You'll find complaints against Maglite. This is what happens when you move not thousands, but millions of units.

Someone, somewhere will get their panties in a wad and start screaming on the internet.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 6, 2015)

I don't put a lot of faith in anecdotal reports, because you do tend to get unhappy people posting, and a large company will have more reports than a small company. However, I do like to use the following ratio

_fanboys : haters_

With that ratio, I can estimate how good a product really is, without falling too much in to the anecdotal trap.

From what I've seen, this ratio doesn't show Nitecore in a good way.


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## snowlover91 (Aug 6, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Hey bro, I don't know who you think you are with your rational and thoughtful response...
> 
> That said, I have stood corrected before in the QC department with out of date research of ZebraLight....So the Forrest of Gump, at the suprise of many CPF members, _may _not be totally infallible_. _You might just have a valid observation on _very current_ QC.
> 
> That said, you steal from CPF members, you steal from me..... no soup for you!



Haha I'll put it this way, I haven't seen many issues on our forums this year with the Nitecore lights compared with back in the day I remember seeing posts almost daily about the PD series having switch issues, thin walls, going poof, etc compared with this year seeing the occasional thread where a light stops working. 

Then there was balloon gate a few years ago with the rubber switches that would balloon up randomly, the opposite of deflate gate and the Patriots with deflated footballs haha.


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## more_vampires (Aug 6, 2015)

snowlover91 said:


> Then there was balloon gate a few years ago with the rubber switches that would balloon up randomly, the opposite of deflate gate and the Patriots with deflated footballs haha.


That sounds like a little bit of cell venting. Where else does the gas pressure come from?


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## RedForest UK (Aug 6, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> That sounds like a little bit of cell venting. Where else does the gas pressure come from?



It was only in hot temperatures. The air inside the light would expand at the same time as the plastic button getting softer, allowing for it to inflate like a balloon.

A new, more silicone like material, fixed the problem.


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## markr6 (Aug 6, 2015)

I kept my EA4 (both old and new version) in my Jeep for over 8hrs on a summer day to test. I don't remember the temp but I think it was 90°F...so easily over 110 inside. No issues.


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## SCEMan (Aug 6, 2015)

I have an EA4W from the original run, and an EC25W - I use both regularly with zero button or other issues. Used to have an IEF2 that also functioned fine. And I live in a hot climate (91°F today). 

Maybe I've been very fortunate.


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## WarRaven (Aug 6, 2015)

I still intend to get a few NC down the road. Though very select few. The others I've no interest in the style,
or wish to deal with locking out to preserve cells.
No go.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 6, 2015)

CelticCross74 said:


> from what I have read its just bad soldering and weak connections



Weak Sauce


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## CelticCross74 (Aug 6, 2015)

ty for all the nice pics Forrest that was actually pretty interesting! Allow me to correct myself-ahem-judging by the amount of CPF FORUM POSTS I have read through over the years is what I should have said. NC builds and sells lights in the hundreds of thousands now per year I dont have their actual sales numbers its just a rough guesstimate. That being said for the amount of lights NC sells vs. bad NC forum posts on CPF NC's QC is actually very good. I freaking love my new MH20 its the nicest NC Ive had or seen. It is also my most used light next to my UC35. I have been one of the super holic nerds that always has CPF running and am next to always on scanning for the next great thing and reports of whats out there.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 6, 2015)

CelticCross74 said:


> ty for all the nice pics Forrest that was actually pretty interesting! Allow me to correct myself-ahem-judging by the amount of CPF FORUM POSTS I have read through over the years is what I should have said. NC builds and sells lights in the hundreds of thousands now per year I dont have their actual sales numbers its just a rough guesstimate. That being said for the amount of lights NC sells vs. bad NC forum posts on CPF NC's QC is actually very good. I freaking love my new MH20 its the nicest NC Ive had or seen. It is also my most used light next to my UC35. I have been one of the super holic nerds that always has CPF running and am next to always on scanning for the next great thing and reports of whats out there.




Got ya, the numbers thing is always a question mark. I however see them as more of a regular quality complaint than other lights in the same class, Fenix for example.

The fact of theft still remains and if that even happens once regardless if they are "inspired" by other major manufacturers or _especially_ longstanding CPF memebers, that is an automatic lifetime ban for me.

The Chinese are nothing short of spectacular manufacturers. The tolerances, feature sets and runtimes are simply amazing. The simple matter of fact is there are many overseas brands that plain steal and I won't have it.

If I pick up an overseas light it's from the legit ones I look at ( 4Sevens / Olight / fenix / Armytec ect..) who come out with original designs. I would also wager integrity in design has some bearing on the final quality of a product. If X company is willing to steal from other manufacturers or custom builders, what is their incentive to produce a long lasting quality product with an honorable warranty? If we bend at the knee to false marketing and we keep buying these questionable brands it only enables theft down the road, and thats something Im admittedly am against. Not to mention no fiscal inspiration for improvement.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 6, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> The fact of theft still remains and if that even happens once regardless if they are "inspired" by other major manufacturers or _especially_ longstanding CPF memebers, that is an automatic lifetime ban for me.



Not sure what you mean in your above as just saying, pretty much everybody has copied the BMW X3 SUV body design, not to mention everything from jetliners and architectural design to pots-n-pans to the point where one can't tell where one manufacture leaves off and another begins.

What am I missing or not understanding?

My latest few purchases have been Nitecore products filled with Orbtronic batteries so you don't have to worry about me being a member of any "knock-off" club other than who can tell the difference between a TM16 and other lights of a similar design look. The point, at a certain time and point, everybody's design begins to run together.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 6, 2015)

Parrot Quack said:


> Not sure what you mean in your above as just saying, pretty much everybody has copied the BMW X3 SUV body design, not to mention everything from jetliners and architectural design to pots-n-pans to the point where one can't tell where one manufacture leaves off and another begins.
> 
> What am I missing or not understanding?



( CRAP, post disappeared so this one is a little skinnier. )

Do lights come close sometimes at random? Im sure they do, however a lot of this stuff is straight up theft.

Steal then lie:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...iteye-Zip-20&p=3994435&viewfull=1#post3994435

Theft:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...t-comparison&p=2968347&viewfull=1#post2968347

Im sure there are many others from other China competitors.

At least they paid Don for the PD design....


In regards to China:

*FENIX , OLIGHT, 4 SEVENS, NEXTOURCH, SUNWAYMAN, SPARK, ARMYTEK & ZEBRALIGHT are the brands Im aware of that 
have integrity in their design coming up with their own unique intellectual property.*

I don't know everything, so there may be 1 or 2 I missed, but if it's a known CPF brand and not on the list, chances are at some point I have found information that suggests blatant ripoffs. I know of one instance where a very popular manufacturer with CPF stole a design _before it was even made public. _Most my information comes from people I believe to be 100% credible. For obvious reasons I don't disclose who, so you'll just have to take my word for it. If not, thats fine also. I have no dog in this fight, but I would like CPF to support companies that don't steal.


Im OT now, bring it back in somebody.....


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 6, 2015)

I have no reason to doubt the veracity of your comments nor do I challenge any of your sources.

My apologies for dragging you OT as I do try to go with the flow of the conversation. I truly do not know or understand how the politics (patent rights/intellectual content) of the flashlight business works. From my end, between SureFire, JETBeam and Nitecore (currently a Nitecore fanboy), company name aside, for the most part, everybody's lights are looking the same. And then there's the whole battery scene to consider.

Thank-you for the reply.


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## xzel87 (Aug 6, 2015)

For what it's worth, I feel that generally people on the Internet are more prone to report/complain of a problem than to compliment. This is observable for any products or services.

I think it's how the mind works maybe. Personally, when I buy something and if the product/service does not have an easily accessible review section, I would not take extra effort to write up a blog, or a facebook post etc. to compliment it, unless it had great impact or impression.


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## WarRaven (Aug 6, 2015)

Six hours is down the road some... 
So I bought my first Nitecore a little bit ago.
It had my attention, was getting high praise and being at a decent price, it bumped others down my buy list.


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## KITROBASKIN (Aug 6, 2015)

My son and I went to the REI store in Albuquerque today. Although I did not look at the torches in blister packages in the aisle, the endcap had, presumably their 'better' lights. In a nice display case, there were four Fenix lights and EIGHT NiteCore lights...

Money talks; not that I'm saying most of the posts in this thread are inconsequential, because they are, and sound valid (Well, maybe not the 'NiteCore broke sitting on the shelf'- maybe the maid had been playing with it) and I do have 4 NiteCore lights that have not really been worked hard. The NiteCore Tube is on my keys everyday and the TM36 is considered by a popular modifier here on the forum, as a complicated light. He also showed and described to us some of the construction features that he thought he was the only one to employ. Intellectual theft? Hopefully he is flattered.

I am truly sorry to read about the defective NiteCore lights these last couple of years of reading CPF, but also believe, as a previous member mentioned, that NiteCore likes to come out with inventive lights at a competitive price, then is off on another inventive light when customers are clamoring to get their earlier faulty lights made right. At least that's how I see it.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 6, 2015)

xzel87 said:


> For what it's worth, I feel that generally people on the Internet are more prone to report/complain of a problem than to compliment. This is observable for any products or services.



Working with your above, one only needs to look at reviews on Amazon to get a good idea of what the negatives are for most products. I think I'm doing great if I get a product with a combined one and two star rating that's under ten percent. Normally I expect +10% when one and two stars are combined. Do I like this fact? No. But what's a consumer to do?

TrueNite TN32. 10% combined, one and two stars.

NiteCore HC90. 00% combined, one and two stars.

The HC90 is the last light I purchased and the TN32 "May" be the next light I purchase.


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## LowFlux (Aug 6, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Steal then lie:
> 
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...iteye-Zip-20&p=3994435&viewfull=1#post3994435



Actually ForrestChump, Sysmax is probably are correct in what they are saying. At one time Jetbeam and Nitecore were both Sysmax companies (both were separate flashlight companies previous to their merger). Then Jetbeam started claiming intellectual theft and created Niteye - there were public signs of an internal pissing match (like what was in the thread you linked). They (Niteye, Jetbeam) eventually split from Sysmax and took their name back but Jetbeam hasn't really recovered whereas Nitecore has flooded the market with lights. The intellectual theft of the Spy007 was purely Jetbeam/Niteye.

Wasn't the piston-drive Nitecores part of a design suggested by 4sevens? Pre owning his own flashlight company David was a Fenix dealer and put Nitecore on the map by co-designing the PD lights. Which is how the royalties got paid.

Unfortunately you can't really pin either of these claims on Nitecore.


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## CelticCross74 (Aug 6, 2015)

Patent and intellectual claims in China are a train wreck of a process its nothing like protected patents etc in the west. In China you can basically make whatever you want no matter whose ideas you are using


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## pjandyho (Aug 7, 2015)

CelticCross74 said:


> Patent and intellectual claims in China are a train wreck of a process its nothing like protected patents etc in the west. In China you can basically make whatever you want no matter whose ideas you are using


That's why I laughed when I read the laser inscription "China patent pending" on my Nitecore TM26. What patent do they honor in China? Really?


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## ForrestChump (Aug 7, 2015)

@ Lowflux - What about the Aeon? Like I said Im sure if I dig I can find many others. All these companies stealing from each other and Nitecore is squeaky clean? The blatant theft of the Aeon aside and without pouring over a bunch of old lights I highly doubt it. In closing: I don't care for their lights and their are enough of reports on CPF for me to remain uninterested. I just don't trust them. I guess it is what it is without going round and round.

@ Thread, this is by far the most popular template of a thread besides Zombies & AA vs CR123:

Person 1: X light sucks, heres what happened.

Person 2: Yeah me too I've had X light poop out on me many times.

Person 3: I received one that was DOA and X light did nothing. Poop. 

Person 4: WHOA! WHOA! Lets not get carried away here, considering how popular X light is don't you think there will be a few complaints?

Person 5: Yeah P4 is right I had an X light from 1920 and it still hums along fine, not even a bulb.

Person 6: I dropped My X light from 2 feet onto a pillow, works fine, whiners.

Person 7: Of course your perception of X light is wrong. People only give feedback when they're angry.

Person 8: X light sucks, heres what happened.


Rinse and repeat, some of these I've read so often and mean nothing I literally get a little nauseous reading them for the billionth time.

Person 4 & 7 being my least favorite. ( No offense, I have no idea who is person 4 or 7 is nor do I care enough to reread the thread. Im sure your great people. )


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## andrew2 (Aug 7, 2015)

Maybe you should contact with the company,not your dealer.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 7, 2015)

I remember when the D10 was CPF flashlight of the year or something along those lines if memory serves me correctly. How times have changed. The only Nitecore I considered buying in years was the USB keychain model. Other than that maybe possibility no thanks but to each their own.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 8, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> I remember when the D10 was CPF flashlight of the year or something along those lines if memory serves me correctly. How times have changed.



Yup, but if I was gonna give it to one light...... Quark....NON STOP QUARK QUARK QUARK QUARK QUARK!!!!

"I think you'll be happy with a Quark".

"Have you heard of the Quark? by far my favorite EDC".

"When the zombies come, QUARK!"

"Just got my Quark, Love it!"

"Quark is the best light ever1111!!!!!!"

"Has anyone licked a Quark? There're sort of sweet, I bet they add honey to the ano!"


----------



## pjandyho (Aug 8, 2015)

Well? Quark is dead. You can't lick it no more and you can't Quark the zombies no more bro.

Back to Nitecore, I remember those early days when I got myself some D10 and EX10. Oh I was a big fan of Nitecore then. They are pretty nice lights and at that time Nitecore was just Nitecore, not under Sysmax.

Got quite a few pieces from 4sevens then and I really liked them a lot. Occasionally I will clean and oil the piston to ensure it is problem free. Had one with an XR-E Q5 in my pocket for a few years and the grey anodizing was all worn till it looks like silver. Sold or gifted them all away when LED technology progresses over the years, but the wife still have one till today. She uses it almost everyday and hers just recently stopped working last month, or the month before. All in all, it lasted about 9 years of frequent usage. Dropped, kicked upon, and submerged. Pretty impressive I would say.

Years later, under Sysmax, they offered a revamp of the D10, the D11. Purchased a D11.2 and it is just horrible. The lowest output is too bright, and there is a horrible parasitic drain which drains up my battery in a matter of hours even when it is off. The D11.2 felt warm throughout while in my pocket. Gave up on it and exchanged it for another Nitecore light, the IFE1. Well, it is problematic as well so changed it for another Nitecore model again, and again, and then again, and was never happy. There was always one problem after another. I decided to give up on Nitecore once and for all.

3 years back when they came up with the TM26, I was kind of drawn to the switch and the UI it has and I decided I will give Nitecore another chance so I bought it. I was impressed with the TM26, even till today. I liked it since day one of ownership.

Then I thought I will give the EA8w a try since I have tons of Eneloop lying around. It worked great for awhile and died for no reasons.

I just recently bought a TM16 and I hope it survive. If this TM16 fail me, Nitecore would be completely out of my books.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 8, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Yup, but if I was gonna give it to one light...... Quark....NON STOP QUARK QUARK QUARK QUARK QUARK!!!!
> 
> "I think you'll be happy with a Quark".
> 
> ...



But now....

"4/7s doesn't care about the Flashaholic market."

I think the following makers are probably responsible for most compalints around these parts.

1. Nitecore.
2. Armytek
3. ZL.

It seems ZL might be cleaning up it's act but Nitecore not so much. Also I don't buy into the fanboy logic of happy buyers don't post, only those with problems. Dang most of this forum is a love nest for one light or another. Even ones that suck but no need to go into that crappy can of worms. Happy people do post just look at the malkoff thread. I agree with you. The bottom line is if there are complaints after complaints it's because there is something wrong.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 8, 2015)

Considering the hundreds of thousands of flashlights that are created each year, what is a reasonable complaint/fail record?

Auto recalls. Baby seat recalls. Political recalls. Congressional approval rating. The point, recalls are part and parcel to manufactured products and dislike is part of life. The point, are our expectations too high or are my expectations to low? FWIW, I've never had a JETBeam, SureFire or Nitecore fail to work. I have about fifteen lights.

Disclosure: currently a Nitecore fanboy.

Amazon reviews; "Nitecore". For my purpose, what ever the product being purchased, I apply the total of the lowest, one and two star reviews and consider the product a winner if less than a total of 10% and consider the product questionable (no go) if over 20%.

For comparison, out of fairness, random known flashlight manufactures listed below:

Fenix.

ThruNite.

EagleTac.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 8, 2015)

I don't trust amazon reviews. Many are either initial impressions reviews or just shills IMHO. I would trust the views of experienced people here much much more.


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## WarRaven (Aug 8, 2015)

Think I've been to Amazon once or twice. 
I don't use it either at all.
CPF is generally all I need.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 8, 2015)

I'm new here, I'm ignorant, it's okay. Just sharing a different POV.

Based on online reviews alone, like many, annually I purchase a large number of items online and so far, over many years of online purchasing, these reviews that I'm so dependent on have never failed me. And yes, admittedly, I'm currently a Nitecore fanboy and yes, to a point, I'm a flashlight ignorant and by no stretch of the imagination am I any sort of expert on the subject.

It's understood, when posting a comment like mine, to expected a doubting sort of reply. I'm good with that point. That's why I mention political approval ratings and product safety recalls as a sort of real life balance. What we're suppose to believe, CPF is a bottle and the real world doesn't count? I'm giving a neutral response, hence why I included several flashlight manufacture's reviews as opposed to a simple Nitecore centric opinion, consisting of a single fanboy.

Example: GM recall information.

..............Ford F-150 complaints.

..............Child Seat Recall.

..............Presidential Polls 2015.

The point, I understand the need for cynicism but aren't we told not to box our thinking in? What am I missing?


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 8, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> But now....
> 
> "4/7s doesn't care about the Flashaholic market."
> 
> ...



Zebralight used to have a lot of complaints, but the past year or so they seem to have fixed most of the problems people were complaining about (inventory problems, tint, etc.) Fanboys (I'm a convert to a fanboy over the past year or two) seem to outnumber the complainers by a wide margin.

Armytek, not sure if there's that many valid complaints about them. Most of the complaints seem to be that they aren't really Canadian (who cares?), and that they removed a very detailed programming mode from the Predator line (this just simplifies things to where most manufacturers are, so it's not really a negative compared to others). OTOH, there doesn't seem to be much of a fanboy following with Armytek, which I find surprising since they offer very well made lights with good tint offerings, all at a very reasonable price compared to others of similar quality.

As with all Chinese companies, most of the real complaints are about warranty service if/when you require it. It takes a long time, for obvious reasons.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 8, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> But now....
> 
> *"4/7s doesn't care about the Flashaholic market."
> *



Yeah. people are funny. David Chow is involved in much more than just 4 Sevens.... His support and contributions to the CPF community have been plenty and consistent over many years. My guess is this sentiment is from the whole no neutral tint option thing..... Always a good business idea to produce something that doesn't sell...../s
He's a stand up dude with 4 Sevens having one of the best warranties in the industry. Have they been a little slow after the big Qurak hit....Maybe... but we now have 4-5? new lights to the lineup not to mention the other models, while few, sell plenty. * Im waaaaaaaay OT now.*

Don't be dissin 4Sevens nobody, lest you get the Forrest!


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## AZPops (Aug 8, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> Save the aggravation and look here. http://www.ebay.com/itm/361174838913?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT.
> 
> Well made cord that uses vulcanized cables instead of shrink wrap over the 18 gauge cables used by Nitecore.




Glad I checked back to this thread! .... Thank you very much! ... :thumbsup:


Pops


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## snowlover91 (Aug 8, 2015)

I have to disagree that Amazon reviews should be thrown out, they do have value and can be quite helpful in many cases. Sure some of them may be initial impressions or from a short time of using the light but they can be useful to give an idea of out of the box quality. Take for example Thrunite, they make decent lights but you can read many recent reviews of switch issues out of the box with some of their models and the reviews reflect that very well. I say all this to say that while CPF is definitely the #1 resource you can't just throw other sources like Amazon reviews out.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 8, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Yeah. people are funny. David Chow is involved in much more than just 4 Sevens.... His support and contributions to the CPF community have been plenty and consistent over many years. My guess is this sentiment is from the whole no neutral tint option thing..... Always a good business idea to produce something that doesn't sell...../s
> He's a stand up dude with 4 Sevens having one of the best warranties in the industry. Have they been a little slow after the big Qurak hit....Maybe... but we now have 4-5? new lights to the lineup not to mention the other models, while few, sell plenty.



I used to be a big 4sevens fan, and have several of their lights. But, the past year or more, they have gone backwards. IMO, they want to sell to Joe Sixpack, not flashaholics. I don't fault them for that, but I certainly don't support them. The Quark redesign is a huge step backwards from the old design. They've gone with proprietary-only batteries in other designs. Dumb switches in others. CR2 batteries?!? And, yes, the absolute refusal to have anything to do with neutral white LEDs is just pig-headed behaviour. They never gave neutral tints a fair try, making them difficult to order and more expensive.

I still watch what 4sevens is doing, holding out a small hope that they'll return to former glory, but I fear we've lost a good maker to the boring mass-market crowd.


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## pjandyho (Aug 8, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I used to be a big 4sevens fan, and have several of their lights. But, the past year or more, they have gone backwards. IMO, they want to sell to Joe Sixpack, not flashaholics. I don't fault them for that, but I certainly don't support them. The Quark redesign is a huge step backwards from the old design. They've gone with proprietary-only batteries in other designs. Dumb switches in others. CR2 batteries?!? And, yes, the absolute refusal to have anything to do with neutral white LEDs is just pig-headed behaviour. They never gave neutral tints a fair try, making them difficult to order and more expensive.
> 
> I still watch what 4sevens is doing, holding out a small hope that they'll return to former glory, but I fear we've lost a good maker to the boring mass-market crowd.


Totally my sentiments!


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## matrixshaman (Aug 8, 2015)

I've got lots of Nitecores since way back and all have been top quality. I did have one problem with one of the newer Headlights. Sent it back to Nitecore overseas and it took a while but it came back (new one I believe) and all was good. Just don't trust that people selling them on eBay are really certified dealers as the one I got that headlight from was not according to Nitecore and I could not even get a response from them. Buy from known dealers as they can replace Nitecore lights without having to send it overseas.


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## reppans (Aug 8, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> .... The Quark redesign is a huge step backwards from the old design...



Fortunately for 47s we all have different opinions and preferences - for my needs, the new Quark Click will bump my HDS 325 if I could only have 2 lights (a Pro is #1). For me, it also beats out my Quark Tacticals, SC52, Prime Pro, V11R, MDCs, D25As, Neuton V2, etc. 

That said, I realize it's not a popular CPF light/brand.... now where's my six-pack


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## ForrestChump (Aug 8, 2015)

A question of taste, and the absolute possibility to go after the larger market. It seems most people who countered me have their pulse on the current lineup. I'll admit I haven't owned one.....

However, Im not sure if you guys heard of this company, they make some great lights and are _heavily_ associated with someone who is often perceived as no longer a CPF centered vendor.

Olight. I heard they put out some pretty neat stuff.....


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 8, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> A question of taste, and the absolute possibility to go after the larger market. It seems most people who countered me have their pulse on the current lineup. I'll admit I haven't owned one.....
> 
> However, Im not sure if you guys heard of this company, they make some great lights and are _heavily_ associated with someone who is often perceived as no longer a CPF centered vendor.
> 
> Olight. I heard they put out some pretty neat stuff.....



Yeah, I can tell. They only make 'em in cool white. :fail:


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## ForrestChump (Aug 8, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Yeah, I can tell. They only make 'em in cool white. :fail:




:shrug:


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## tarrow (Aug 8, 2015)

My ea8 is still going strong. I bought one within a few months of it coming out. I use it for about 20 min. a day in the summer and a couple hours a day in the winter. It is looking pretty beat, I have dropped it in chicken manure a few times, snow countless times, lost it in a feed bucket for a week once and have thrown it at a fox once. The button thing happened in the 2nd month I owned it and I made a fix out of a bit of innertube with a small glob of silicone and a cloth bandaid. I wish cellphones were this simple and durable.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 8, 2015)

Parrot Quack said:


> Just sharing a different POV.



That's 100% ok. Share on brother.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 8, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Zebralight used to have a lot of complaints, but the past year or so they seem to have fixed most of the problems people were complaining about (inventory problems, tint, etc.)



Yup. That's the reason why they're back on my radar. Reliability is high on my personal preference requirement list.


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## tab665 (Aug 8, 2015)

the only experience with nitcore ive had was with an i2 charger. gave it to a coworker after his i4 blew its plug off. a couple months later the i2 i gave him also blew off its plug. theres a thread in the batteries and chargers section that another member started when his charger blew its plug. i wont buy another nitcore product after that. reliability and performance is one thing, a concern about saftey is a whole different ball park.


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## superroo (Aug 10, 2015)

My TM26 got salt water in it due to me removing it from from the holster & the rubber tab protecting the charging port peeling open as I pulled it out.I realised this when it was too late to stop the damage as it deteriorated over time.I contacted the manufacturer directly & sent it to them at their request.A new one was sent to me no questions asked.I now keep a strip of electrical tape over the charging port to stop the rubber cap opening & have had no problems.If they have issues send them back,it worked for me & I learnt a bit as well.


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## pjandyho (Aug 10, 2015)

Oh shucks.. Guess I have been too vocal about my experiences with Nitecore. Sysmax sent me a PM offering to service my EA8W for free. Now I am impressed! Let's see what is gonna happen next.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 10, 2015)

pjandyho said:


> Oh shucks.. Guess I have been too vocal about my experiences with Nitecore. Sysmax sent me a PM offering to service my EA8W for free. Now I am impressed! Let's see what is gonna happen next.



The arrival of a one-way, all expenses paid, ticket to N.Korea?  Congratulations.


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## pjandyho (Aug 10, 2015)

Parrot Quack said:


> The arrival of a one-way, all expenses paid, ticket to N.Korea?  Congratulations.


And it will return with uranium installed. Woohoo!


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 10, 2015)

A battery that will outlive you.


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## richbuff (Aug 10, 2015)

pjandyho said:


> ... *Let's see what is gonna happen next.*





Parrot Quack said:


> The arrival of a one-way, all expenses paid, ticket to N.Korea?  Congratulations.





pjandyho said:


> And it will return with uranium installed. Woohoo!





Parrot Quack said:


> A battery that will outlive you.


Better yet: Merciful closure of an iffy dumping ground topic?


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## pjandyho (Aug 10, 2015)

richbuff said:


> Better yet: Merciful closure of an iffy dumping ground topic?


I do hope so. Some have claimed that after servicing, the EA8W is still exhibiting problems but we will see. At least Nitecore or Sysmax is willing to make things right.


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## more_vampires (Aug 10, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> "Has anyone licked a Quark? There're sort of sweet, I bet they add honey to the ano!"


...I admit. When you posted that, I looked at my Quark... and thought about it.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 10, 2015)

pjandyho said:


> I do hope so. Some have claimed that after servicing, the EA8W is still exhibiting problems but we will see. At least Nitecore or Sysmax is willing to make things right.



If they're smart, they'll give you a new/equivalent unit and call it a day.


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## Bizill (Aug 11, 2015)

This thread sounds disheartening. I just placed an order for a Nitecore MH20. Here's to hoping it performs and lasts like a champ!


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## markr6 (Aug 11, 2015)

Bizill said:


> This thread sounds disheartening. I just placed an order for a Nitecore MH20. Here's to hoping it performs and lasts like a champ!



Use it and enjoy it; I bet it will be just fine!

I think if we created a single thread for every manufacturer and told people to share their negative feedback, 9/10 of those threads would start filling up with pages of sob stories.


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## WarRaven (Aug 11, 2015)

Bizill said:


> This thread sounds disheartening. I just placed an order for a Nitecore MH20. Here's to hoping it performs and lasts like a champ!


I agree with Mark, it ought to be just great.
I ordered same light, expecting it today as a matter of fact.
There's some from each OEM I'm not into or would touch, even from my favored OEM.


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## Bizill (Aug 11, 2015)

Thanks guys. Hopefully I will not be revisting this thread...:wave:


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## snowlover91 (Aug 11, 2015)

Bizill said:


> This thread sounds disheartening. I just placed an order for a Nitecore MH20. Here's to hoping it performs and lasts like a champ!



Wouldnt worry too much I've never had a problem with them and their QC is much better.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 11, 2015)

Some people have all the luck and some people have no luck. Me? I have excellent luck with stuff that I buy. OTOH, my father-in-law has zero luck with anything that has a cord or batteries. Who should you listen to?


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## snowlover91 (Aug 11, 2015)

Bizill said:


> Thanks guys. Hopefully I will not be revisting this thread...:wave:



We hope to see you post how it works out for you and how well the light works!


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## ForrestChump (Aug 12, 2015)

Omitted.


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## chaosdsm (Aug 15, 2015)

JoeSW said:


> This is disconcerting. I'm using an MH20 as my EDC and a TM16 and tube light are on their way. I'm hoping I'll have better luck than some of you guys.....



Those who have problems, are always (rightfully) the most vocal, and are often referred to as the "vocal minority", but that does not make a bad product. There's always a minimum failure rate no matter who makes what. Be it cars, televisions, phones, computers, flashlights, et.al. there are lemons in all technologies. Ferrari's that break down months after purchase, a friends 4 month old Surefire that stopped working after a 2 foot drop (kitchen table onto ceramic tile), computers that don't turn on when you get them home / finish build or develop BSOD's within days or weeks of purchase / build. 

One of the most popular computer hardware manufacturers has about a "20%+ failure rate".... *IF you were to believe the submitted ratings available at dozens of online shops to be accurately indicative of their failure rate.* In actuality, when compared to the actual sales numbers, the real failure rate is only about 1 out of every 2,500 sold products over the life of the warranty period, even though I personally have experienced 5 failures out of 28 products from that manufacturer. That's what we're seeing here in this thread for Nitecore a perceived failure rate instead of an actual failure rate. I seriously doubt that any flashlight manufacturer can boast a failure rate as low as 1 in 2,500 & I would be surprised if even Surefire could beat 1 in 1,500. I've seen just as many complaints for Fenix and ThruNite as I've seen for Nitecore, far fewer from Zebralight, 4Sevens, & Surefire, but no flashlight manufacturer is failure free.

*I'M NOT SAYING TO IGNORE THE COMPLAINTS, MANY OF THEM ARE PROBABLY ACCURATE, AND DEFINITELY SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION BEFORE PURCHASE. * What I am saying, is that ALL high production rate products ARE subject to the same failure probability. I would also say that you should look for failure patterns in specific models you're interested in which may be indicative of a problem at the plant that model is manufactured/assembled in.


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## 18650 (Aug 15, 2015)

chaosdsm said:


> Those who have problems, are always (rightfully) the most vocal, and are often referred to as the "vocal minority", but that does not make a bad product. There's always a minimum failure rate no matter who makes what. Be it cars, televisions, phones, computers, flashlights, et.al. there are lemons in all technologies. Ferrari's that break down months after purchase, a friends 4 month old Surefire that stopped working after a 2 foot drop (kitchen table onto ceramic tile), computers that don't turn on when you get them home / finish build or develop BSOD's within days or weeks of purchase / build. One of the most popular computer hardware manufacturers has about a "20%+ failure rate".... *IF you were to believe the submitted ratings available at dozens of online shops to be accurately indicative of their failure rate.* In actuality, when compared to the actual sales numbers, the real failure rate is only about 1 out of every 2,500 sold products over the life of the warranty period, even though I personally have experienced 5 failures out of 28 products from that manufacturer. That's what we're seeing here in this thread for Nitecore a perceived failure rate instead of an actual failure rate. I seriously doubt that any flashlight manufacturer can boast a failure rate as low as 1 in 2,500 & I would be surprised if even Surefire could beat 1 in 1,500. I've seen just as many complaints for Fenix and ThruNite as I've seen for Nitecore, far fewer from Zebralight, 4Sevens, & Surefire, but no flashlight manufacturer is failure free. *I'M NOT SAYING TO IGNORE THE COMPLAINTS, MANY OF THEM ARE PROBABLY ACCURATE, AND DEFINITELY SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION BEFORE PURCHASE. * What I am saying, is that ALL high production rate products ARE subject to the same failure probability. I would also say that you should look for failure patterns in specific models you're interested in which may be indicative of a problem at the plant that model is manufactured/assembled in.


 Failure patterns is right. Many lights across lines failing in a similar manner is certainly more worrying than hearing about say a lens letting in water, usb port coming loose, or switch failing even if those are of the same maker.


----------



## 100eyes (Aug 16, 2015)

chaosdsm said:


> look for failure patterns in specific models you're interested in





18650 said:


> Failure patterns is right. Many lights across lines failing in a similar manner is certainly more worrying than hearing about say a lens letting in water, usb port coming loose, or switch failing even if those are of the same maker.



:shrug:


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## delus (Aug 16, 2015)

Excuse me while I get off the floor from laughing at this thread's title.
A pair of Nitecore failures in three months is what first brought me to this forum, searching for reliability. They just can't take an impact. or a drop of water, or being overdriven by their own electronics, or just about anything. You get what you pay for. I'm sure their most expensive lights have higher build quality, but I never got past their midrange.

I got extremely lucky to reach this forum at the exact moment Elzetta was releasing the AVS Head. I didn't even know it was "The New Thing" until after I ordered. 
Now it's the exact opposite. Every single aspect has been designed for extreme ruggedness. It's hard to imagine any normal-use situation that would kill one of my El-Z's. 
I started buying cell tubes from OverReady, shaved to fit an 18650 battery, and now I could not imagine a more perfect light for the rigors of the construction biz. 
I have one for home, one for work, and one for the car. 

Occasionally I'll throw one as far as i can down the street just to show off. I've done that at least twenty times with the El-Z I use at work. Concrete marks the anodizing worse than asphalt, but only once did I need to file off a burr. Try that with your nitecores, I dare ya.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 16, 2015)

delus said:


> Occasionally I'll throw one as far as i can down the street just to show off. I've done that at least twenty times with the El-Z I use at work. Concrete marks the anodizing worse than asphalt, but only once did I need to file off a burr. Try that with your nitecores, I dare ya.



Well, at least Pittsburgh has the Steelers.


----------



## Sherbona (Aug 16, 2015)

delus said:


> --- snip ---
> Occasionally I'll throw one as far as i can down the street just to show off. I've done that at least twenty times with the El-Z I use at work. Concrete marks the anodizing worse than asphalt, but only once did I need to file off a burr. Try that with your nitecores, I dare ya.
> --- /snip ---


I have Nitecores that have gone through the equivalent many times, without any problem (except for marks of course). I typically ride my bike with two nitecores, SRT7s or two from their chameleon line, using handlebar flashlight mounts. I had accidentally stretched out my mounts with some 26650 lights and when going back to 18650 lights they were on a little looser. During that time the lights 'jumped for their freedom' many times when going over bumps at speed. All still work perfectly. I noticed the same thing, concrete does indeed scratch/mark worse then asphalt.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 16, 2015)

I don't know about flashlights and purposely skittering them across the concrete. Going back into the 50's, I never found need to throw my flashlights across the room, let alone shoot them with a shotgun, drop them out of a high flying helicopter or like a stone on a frozen lake, purposely skitter them across concrete.

More power to those who find need to do so. Me? I don't understand, nothing more.

I'm the kinda guy who washes dust off his shovels and breaks a handle only when the shovel handle has become old and I'm tired of looking at it getting older and less useful.

It's a good thing I don't apply these same standards to me.


----------



## ForrestChump (Aug 16, 2015)

chaosdsm said:


> Those who have problems, are always (rightfully) the most vocal, and are often referred to as the "vocal minority", but that does not make a bad product. There's always a minimum failure rate no matter who makes what. Be it cars, televisions, phones, computers, flashlights, et.al. there are lemons in all technologies. Ferrari's that break down months after purchase, a friends 4 month old Surefire that stopped working after a 2 foot drop (kitchen table onto ceramic tile), computers that don't turn on when you get them home / finish build or develop BSOD's within days or weeks of purchase / build.
> 
> One of the most popular computer hardware manufacturers has about a "20%+ failure rate".... *IF you were to believe the submitted ratings available at dozens of online shops to be accurately indicative of their failure rate.* In actuality, when compared to the actual sales numbers, the real failure rate is only about 1 out of every 2,500 sold products over the life of the warranty period, even though I personally have experienced 5 failures out of 28 products from that manufacturer. That's what we're seeing here in this thread for Nitecore a perceived failure rate instead of an actual failure rate. I seriously doubt that any flashlight manufacturer can boast a failure rate as low as 1 in 2,500 & I would be surprised if even Surefire could beat 1 in 1,500. I've seen just as many complaints for Fenix and ThruNite as I've seen for Nitecore, far fewer from Zebralight, 4Sevens, & Surefire, but no flashlight manufacturer is failure free.
> 
> *I'M NOT SAYING TO IGNORE THE COMPLAINTS, MANY OF THEM ARE PROBABLY ACCURATE, AND DEFINITELY SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION BEFORE PURCHASE. * What I am saying, is that ALL high production rate products ARE subject to the same failure probability. I would also say that you should look for failure patterns in specific models you're interested in which may be indicative of a problem at the plant that model is manufactured/assembled in.



If they sell more lights to the public, thats fine. But there are plenty of CPF members that have just as many Nitecores as they have Fenixes for example. I bet you the failure rates are significantly higher for Nitecores. This isn't a "perception" problem. The "vocal minority" thing is fine. Everything you said is dandy.


The fact of the matter is Nitecore has been churning out hit or miss lights for the past 8 years I've been reading CPF going all the way back to the D10. They also have essentially a crap / non existent warranty unless you have a fantastic dealer. if your purchasing a name brand light for reliability, Nitecore should be dead last on your list.


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## L.N. (Aug 16, 2015)

I'm don't agree that Nitecore has bad warranty. I bought my MH20 from a Chinese vendor, which wasn't an authorised dealer. The light has a malfunctioning switch and they agreed to replacing or repairing it without charge. Of course I had to pay for the delivery to China, but I had to pay that anyway if I would sent it back to the seller.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 16, 2015)

L.N. said:


> I'm don't agree that Nitecore has bad warranty. I bought my MH20 from a Chinese vendor, which wasn't an authorised dealer. The light has a malfunctioning switch and they agreed to replacing or repairing it without charge. Of course I had to pay for the delivery to China, but I had to pay that anyway if I would sent it back to the seller.





ForrestChump said:


> If they sell more lights to the public, thats fine. But there are plenty of CPF members that have just as many Nitecores as they have Fenixes for example. I bet you the failure rates are significantly higher for Nitecores. This isn't a "perception" problem. The "vocal minority" thing is fine. Everything you said is dandy.
> 
> 
> The fact of the matter is Nitecore has been churning out hit or miss lights for the past 8 years I've been reading CPF going all the way back to the D10. They also have essentially a crap / non existent warranty *unless you have a fantastic dealer.* if your purchasing a name brand light for reliability, Nitecore should be dead last on your list.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 16, 2015)

Just saying, when any of my lights have crapped out in the past, I went into the hardware store and bought new flashlights. Since dealing with LED lights, I've never had to buy a replacement light. Well, except for the one I crushed in the workings of a recliner chair. And that was because I couldn't handle the crushed bezel look that didn't affect the performance, one bit.

Now, being fair, I have had to replace a few televisions and I have had to turn an AVR back over to Marantz for replacement and because I dropped a statue and a LCD computer monitor, I have had to learn to ignore man made flaws that I was responsible for. I have had bushings wear out on auto related water pumps, under-sink garbage disposals and after many years, washing machines. The point, things wear out and sometimes it's the user's fault.

I love my lights for what they do, not what they are.

Let's see, a delivered rechargeable Nitecore MH20 that was purchased on Amazon, costs $88.00 (USD). It falls out of my pocket and into a wood chipping machine, somebody steals it or worse, I lose it. A new replacement light, runs me $88.00 and when compared to other high priced lights, I still have money left over.

How much do I have left over if my high priced light falls into a chipper, gets stolen or heaven forbid, gets lost or forgotten on a store counter after paying for some gas?


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## ForrestChump (Aug 16, 2015)

Parrot Quack said:


> Just saying, when any of my lights have crapped out in the past, I went into the hardware store and bought new flashlights. Since dealing with LED lights, I've never had to buy a replacement light. *Well, except for the one I crushed in the workings of a recliner chair. And that was because I couldn't handle the crushed bezel look that didn't affect the performance, one bit.*
> 
> Now, being fair, I have had to replace a few televisions and I have had to turn an AVR back over to Marantz for replacement and because I dropped a statue and a LCD computer monitor, I have had to learn to ignore man made flaws that I was responsible for. I have had bushings wear out on auto related water pumps, under-sink garbage disposals and after many years, washing machines. The point, things wear out and sometimes it's the user's fault.
> 
> I love my lights for what they do, not what they are.







Im not into abusing lights either. Honestly, I don't even own most of them long enough to show wear. However, I am a shovel breaker on a bad day...

What I do do though is compulsively read. 8-10 hours a day easy, you would think I would have better typing skillz. I also have a wickd case of OCD. I noticed this quite young, when I had a Ninja turtle named Raphael.... I was playing with him on a wooden deck, one of his dagger things fell between a crack. Complete dread.....Raphael has 2 daggers not 1! I went into a frenzy, and ultimately he was no longer a whole turtle without his other dagger.... The same day he was buried at the beach as I just couldn't bare the fact that he was half the turtle he used to be.... This has morphed into a compulsive habit of evaluating every detail of of objects of interest or the information I can gather. Im not always 100% correct and thats often because I get an initial impression and fail to inquire further on said brand, sometimes for years. Recently to my surprise stood corrected on Zebralights gains in reliability...


Now, LED lights are leaps and bounds more reliable then past generations of portable lighting. But with my compulsive reading, lack of tolerance of all things whole and my other hobby, data gathering, it is abundantly clear not all lights are created equal and not all companies are interested in manufacturing reliable lights in the interest of quantity over quality. I would say after 8 years of reading, looking at members that have been around awhile, what they like, what they own, and sometimes what they are willing to overlook to stay loyal, gives an excellent picture on respective light brands and how they perform. Not to mention my own hands on experience.

That said, there is also Google: n-i-t-e-c-o-r-e


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 16, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> I went into a frenzy, and ultimately he was no longer a whole turtle without his other dagger....



I do hope you had the good sense to keep the half of the turtle that did have a dagger. :naughty:

Google "Nitecore."


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## ForrestChump (Aug 16, 2015)

Parrot Quack said:


> I do hope you had the good sense to keep the half of the turtle that did have a dagger. :naughty:
> 
> Google "Nitecore."



HAHA^^^ cheater!

Nitecore Charger

Nitecore Flashlight 

2 quick and dirties for you......there are a multitude of posts dating back a decade with different search terms. *YES I do understand these 2 links are not the be all end all*, but they are a good start. Gathering good data takes LOTS of time.


I guess it all boils down to what you want to do? 

Want a potential house fire? Buy a charger.

Want a light to poof out randomly? Buy a flashlight.

This really isn't a debate.....it's all out there.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 16, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> This really isn't a debate.....it's all out there.



This is a debate?

There's no debate. I love my Nitecore D4 and haven't complaint one about any of my other Nitecore purchases. I love all of my flashlight purchases made in the last six years. What's to debate?

OTOH, every single car I've owned has needed repair work done on it and other than recalls, I've had to pay for every single repair. What's with that? Why should I have to pay for diagnostic work done at the dealership? They should do everything for free. Reads fair to me.

And one has to love the genius who decided that hiding a fuel pump inside the gas tank was a good idea.

And to think the 49ers allowed Harbaugh to get away and Pittsburgh's defense is going do so good this year. Now that's a debate. :devil:


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## ForrestChump (Aug 16, 2015)

Parrot Quack said:


> This is a debate?
> 
> There's no debate. I love my Nitecore D4 and haven't complaint one about any of my other Nitecore purchases. I love all of my flashlight purchases made in the last six years. What's to debate?
> 
> ...




Sorry, general statement. We are not debating, just exchanging info and having fun.


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## TeaSipper (Aug 16, 2015)

I have a P36 and so far, great flashlight. Reading this thread makes me wonder just how bad Nitecore can be. From my experience with the P36 it's all solid. I guess only time will tell.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 16, 2015)

TeaSipper said:


> I have a P36 and so far, great flashlight. Reading this thread makes me wonder just how bad Nitecore can be. From my experience with the P36 it's all solid. I guess only time will tell.



What I think is going kill you, Nitecore releasing the EC4S which looks to be a replacement for the P36. Don't worry, I'm on the other side of the equation as I recently purchased an EC4. :shrug:



ForrestChump said:


> ...just exchanging info and having fun.



Does that mean I have to recant my love of Nitecore products? 

I like having fun online. Currently having fun watching the Giants crush the Nationals. Your team winning ='s fun.


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## QuantumSam (Aug 16, 2015)

You can't rely on the negative reviews alone - people with no problems are less likely to post responses.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 16, 2015)

Parrot Quack said:


> Does that mean I have to recant my love of Nitecore products?
> 
> I like having fun online. Currently having fun watching the Giants crush the Nationals. Your team winning ='s fun.



Yes, you must recant and pledge you're allegiance to a different manufacturer. PM me for suggestions. 

I used to LOVE hockey ( Avalanche Vs Redwings 97-98" Draper injury aside, Claude Lemieux, favorite player ever. He signs stuff but dude is a blank tank when I met him.)

But now, not so much.... I only do computers, NO Television.:sick2: 

"My only moral is no sports." - Marilyn Manson


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## ForrestChump (Aug 16, 2015)

QuantumSam said:


> You can't rely on the negative reviews alone - people with no problems are less likely to post responses.



With respect, I've read this well over 100 times on CPF, it has also been covered in thread. What about the manufacturers that MANY CPF people own and you barley hear a peep about a glitch here or there? Nitecore failures are a weekly event.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 16, 2015)

ForrestChump,

I must not be a typical Nitecore purchaser. I own close to 18 Nitecore lights. Besides the jacket pull Tubes, my cheapest Nitecore is the EC25. Couple of P20's, and P20UV, P25, a couple SRT7's the P36' and off of the Tiny Monster lights besides the new TM 16 and the original TM11. Multiples of all of these lights. No failures. 

I try not to abuse my lights, but there are times that they do get dropped or banged into something. 

I've had two led lights fail, a Surefire that went splat onto concrete and a Led Lenser that failed to light. Dads LL P3 had a alakleak puke and kill his light. 

I blame the moon.


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## snowlover91 (Aug 16, 2015)

I have 8 Nitecore lights going back to 2009 with the original D10. I had a great copy out of the box (many of the PD series had QC issues) and it still works great to this day, even swapped the LED out to a high CRI one and it works excellent. Have several other PD lights by them like the D11.2, EX11.2 and D20 as well as their SRT5 light and a EA41w I gave to a friend for camping. My sister has their SENS AA light which also works great. 

As someone who is familiar with the QC of Nitecore going back from 2009 to the present I can honestly say they have dramatically improved QC especially in the past few years. The past 1-2 years especially they have significantly upped their QC and refined their lights. I remember in their early days back in 2008-2010 you would see multiple threads DAILY. Now I see one every 1-2 months, far better than they were. Definitely not where they need to be but a vast improvement and their lights are good quality for the price.


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## 100eyes (Aug 16, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Yeah. people are funny. David Chow is involved in much more than just 4 Sevens.... His support and contributions to the CPF community have been plenty and consistent over many years. My guess is this sentiment is from the whole no neutral tint option thing..... Always a good business idea to produce something that doesn't sell...../s
> He's a stand up dude with 4 Sevens having one of the best warranties in the industry. Have they been a little slow after the big Qurak hit....Maybe... but we now have 4-5? new lights to the lineup not to mention the other models, while few, sell plenty. * Im waaaaaaaay OT now.*
> 
> Don't be dissin 4Sevens nobody, lest you get the Forrest!



One of the worst customer services I've ever received is from 4Sevens for my Ti Preon. Was my first and last light from them.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 17, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> I blame the moon.


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## pjandyho (Sep 29, 2015)

pjandyho said:


> Nitecore has been pretty crappy for me. Many of my purchases died just a few times of using it and I don't even drive my lights on max all the time. My EA8w which was less than a year old died for no reasons too and would only come on in firefly mode no matter what I did to it. Nitecore said they will charge me for shipping and handling since I had purchased it from the U.S. and not through my local distribution channel. What a piece of BS! It is a product made by them and they should honor it. I don't care if I purchased it from Mars or Venus, as long as it is branded Nitecore then they fix it free. It is now a paperweight sitting at home. I just purchased a TM16 and I hope this model will not undergo cheap quality standards just like all their other cheapies. The TM series IHMO has been pretty well made across the board and we shall see about the TM16.





pjandyho said:


> Oh shucks.. Guess I have been too vocal about my experiences with Nitecore. Sysmax sent me a PM offering to service my EA8W for free. Now I am impressed! Let's see what is gonna happen next.


Guess what? I got my EA8w back from Nitecore today! Didn't take too long to get it back from them considering the shipping time to and fro. What can I say? I am impressed! Not sure if they sent me a new light or they repaired mine but it came in a box just like new with all the accessories and instruction manual inside. This shows their willingness to make things right and it gives me great encouragements to want to continue trying out their products. I am glad I decided to send it in to Nitecore for servicing since I was about to throw it away. Great job Nitecore!


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## Parrot Quack (Sep 29, 2015)

Congratulations to both you and Nitecore.


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## snowlover91 (Sep 29, 2015)

Thanks for the update! This confirms Nitecore is taking necessary steps to both improve customer service as well as turnaround time! Glad to see this and it confirms my earlier thinking that Nitecore is taking steps to improve both their quality as well as customer service.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Sep 29, 2015)

My first and last Nitecore light was the D20. It was a novel design and the light was built like a tank, but the switch operation was twitchy and unreliable, and the light would spontaneously turn itself on for no readily apparent reason. No more Nitecore for me.


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## Overclocker (Sep 29, 2015)

all i can say is that nitecore's quality has gone up starting from about a year ago


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## pjandyho (Sep 29, 2015)

I wrote to Nitecore to thank them for the great job done and received a reply from Li Liang. In it he said he would like to make things right for me after such a long wait and for that he sent me a new replacement. Well I wasn't expecting that and I am real pleased that he took the initiative and did above and beyond for me. My faith in Nitecore has been restored.


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## PartyPete (Sep 29, 2015)

OP: how do you like the TK41 and E41 in comparison? 

Sorry if this was mentioned already, but this thread is huge...


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## NoNotAgain (Sep 29, 2015)

PartyPete said:


> OP: how do you like the TK41



If you're interested in a TK41 you'd probably ought to get one now as the last Fenix catalog no longer has the TK41 listed. 

The EA8 in Nitecore is probably as close as you're going to get.


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## phosphor (Sep 29, 2015)

I used to avoid Nitecore like the plague....the MH20 has inoculated me.


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## akhyar (Sep 29, 2015)

I just hope few years down the line, Nitecore will still honour their 5 years warranty for flashlight as what can be seen right now, a lot of users here and BLF are buying their Nitecore's products through group buy or discount code from the big online retailers in China, and totally bypassing their local authorised dealers. Mind you, we're not talking about 5-10% discount, but up to a whopping of 45% discount off the retail price for newly launched flashlights.


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## phosphor (Sep 29, 2015)

akhyar said:


> I just hope few years down the line, Nitecore will still honour their 5 years warranty for flashlight as what can be seen right now, a lot of users here and BLF are buying their Nitecore's products through group buy or discount code from the big online retailers in China, and totally bypassing their local authorised dealers. Mind you, we're not talking about 5-10% discount, but up to a whopping of 45% discount off the retail price for newly launched flashlights.


....to your point, for the little amount I spent on the MH20 using the "whopping" discount code, I won't be too distressed if the light goes belly-up and Nitecore withdraws support. What does concern me is being stranded with a belly-up Nitecore in a critical situation that requires light.


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## akhyar (Sep 29, 2015)

Seems like their newly released lights are not plagued with problems, unlike their earlier models few years back, so hopefully we won't be stranded with a belly-up Nitecore with their latest lights.
The only complaint that keep on surfacing is on the high parasitic drain on some of their new models, which can be perceived as a problem to some users, and a non-issue to some.


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## snowlover91 (Sep 29, 2015)

pjandyho said:


> I wrote to Nitecore to thank them for the great job done and received a reply from Li Liang. In it he said he would like to make things right for me after such a long wait and for that he sent me a new replacement. Well I wasn't expecting that and I am real pleased that he took the initiative and did above and beyond for me. My faith in Nitecore has been restored.



Thats great customer service and a good sign! Thanks again for sharing this with us.


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## teacher (Oct 1, 2015)

Hmmmmm, maybe I'm just lucky but I have had no negative issues with any of my Nitecore's. I have several and the best I remember the oldest one was bought a couple of years ago and the newest one got here a week ago. I use my lights but rarely abuse them on purpose... I treat them as I attempt to treat my firearms.
I guess time will tell, but so far I am 100% with Nitecore's.... 100% Positive feedback. :thumbsup:
I'm  on Nitecore........


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## Prepped (Oct 2, 2015)

I see brands across all types of product lines go through this cycle of good/bad manufacturing / quality control. It's just a matter of keeping track to see who is still bringing their 'A game' to the market. There was once a time that too speak badly of SF quality was blasphemy, but from what I'm seeing that's no longer the case. I have an old E1l that I'm pretty sure will still be here after a nuclear holocaust.


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