# Does water spoil?



## Sinjz (Mar 28, 2004)

I've been keeping boiled water in 2 liter Coke bottles. They are there purely for emergencies, so the water does not get changed. Do I need to worry about the water going bad? I used two bottles during the NE blackout, without problem, but a couple of those bottles have been sitting there for nearly 2 and a half years now. Thanks for the info. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## BlindedByTheLite (Mar 28, 2004)

i'd think boiled water wouldn't spoil, but i have heard stories of bottled water developing strange growths after very longterm storage..

in my opinion tho, water doesn't go bad.. if i need water i'll drink it! haha


----------



## Marty Weiner (Mar 29, 2004)

Most bottled water shows a "use by" date of 2 years but researchers claim that water doesn't have to be used for at least 10 years or longer.

My sister has a 55 gallon drum of water that's she's had for 27 years and I'd die of thirst before I would drink it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Marty


----------



## Greta (Mar 29, 2004)

I've heard that the plastic of the container starts to break down after a certain period of time... I believe that's why there is an expiration date on bottled water. So the water doesn't really go "bad" but the packaging does. And if the plastic is breaking down, it's gotta go somewhere.. into the water?!?!? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif


----------



## raggie33 (Mar 29, 2004)

i never drink water i mean never ever well it may be in stuff i drink i like milk gateraide pepsi


----------



## DougNel (Mar 29, 2004)

I have had some experience in the bottled water business so think I can answer your question. No, water does not "spoil" per se. But I think you are asking the wrong question. It should be "After extended storage, will this water (as you have described) be safe to drink?"

The answer to that question is "Yes, if you have taken care to store it properly". Water can become contaminated from both organic and inorganic sources. Since you have boiled the water, it should not have any source for organic growth in it. But what about the container. Was it sterilized, too? If not, that could be a problem (especially if it previously contained a sugar based liquid). Also, how was it sealed? Is it airtight? If not, that could be a possible source of contamination. Also, it should not be stored in sunlight, which promotes organic growth as well as deterioration of plastic. A problem would be evidenced by organic growth in the water.

The other possible problem is that molecules from a plastic container _will_ leach into the water over time. Nothing you can do about that. The good news is that this is primarily a taste issue (the water will taste bad). I doubt you will be drinking enough of it to make it a health issue. The rate of leaching is dependent on the type of plastic. You described "2 liter Coke bottles". These use a fairly soft plastic with a relatively high leach rate. Depending on the environment, these types of bottles are also prone to deteriorate and leak. They really are not suitable for long term storage.

The best medium for long term storage is glass (which is why you can still drink 50 year old wine). Glass is easily broken, however, as well as being heavy. A good compromise would be a polycarbonate plastic bottle. Polycarbonate is a high quality, relatively hard (and thus expensive) plastic. It is used for making car bumpers and eyeglasses, for example. The larger the bottle, the better, as that maximizes the amount of water for the surface area of the plastic. The bottled water industry uses both 3 and 5 gallon polycarbonate bottles, and those are what I would recommend to you for your storage.


----------



## paulr (Mar 29, 2004)

General advice is to put in a drop or so of clorox per gallon of water, and rotate the water every 6 months. In fact I posted a week or so ago about some water I'd left in a 1 liter Lexan bottle for about 3 years; it smelled and tasted fine (small sample) but I wasn't about to drink the whole thing without a good reason. I have some even older PET(?) 1 gallon bottles full of tap water that I'll get around to testing I guess.

Fancy emergency kits these days generally include purified water sealed in foil pouches (4 ounces) or aquablox (8 ounces). These are sterile containers with 5 year expiration rather than 6 months. The easier maintenance makes up for the expense, I guess.


----------



## _mike_ (Mar 29, 2004)

I have to agree with DougNel and paulr on this. If you take their advice you will be in good shape! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Mike


----------



## jtice (Mar 29, 2004)

Good advice guys.,

I say, if you boil the water, and make sure the container is CLEAN, you should be fine.

If you plan to store it for years..
Boil the water, and the glass bottle.

If its in a clean glass bottle, it should be fine for years if kept in a dark place.


----------



## _mike_ (Mar 29, 2004)

My wife does canning, guess you could can water the same way. Ok, they call it "canning" but you use jars, don't ask me why ..... I'm just sayin'. You don't need any fancy equipment to do this.

Anyhow, boil the water and boil (sterilize) the jar, clean the lids. Pour the boiled water into the jar, pop on the lid. As it cools, a vacuum is created which pulls the lid down (you should hear a pop) which creates an air tight seal. That should keep water good for a very long time.

Mike


----------



## ledlurker (Mar 29, 2004)

Plastic also allows oxygen to pass through to get in the water. If Oxygen can get through I wonder what else can. I use 3 and 5 gallon glass carboys to make wine because plastic imparts odd tastes and the oxygen oxidizes the wine. I have a 5 gallon batch my dad made before he died in 87 and it is still fine (as long as I remember to keep pumping the air out after sampling).


----------



## Sub_Umbra (Mar 29, 2004)

I use and would recommend a *KATADYN* filter. They are highly respected and have made water filters for over 50 years. Their filters do not require electricity.

I would disenfect some *stable* containers and then filter the water before sealing it up in them. This first filtering would be a simple way to retard growth of bacteria during storage. I would not consider this, by itself, to be enough.

If worse comes to worse, when it's time to use the water, *filter it again*, aerate it by pouring it back and forth a few times between two containers, and it should be safe and tasty.

Katadyn

We have been using the *Katadyn Drip Filter* for years to filter all of our drinking/cooking water as municipal water quality has been going downhill throughout the States for 35 years. *This trend will continue*. Bottled water does not test out any better in the lab than tap water.

Trying to keep water pristine in storage is *way* too dificult. Just filter it, put it in a clean container for storage and to be on the safe side, filter it again before you use it.

Also, having the filter on hand in an emergency is cool because in addition to your stored water you can use any water you can find.


----------



## Aten_Imago (Mar 29, 2004)

Based on my 3 year experiment properly bottled- tap water can keep at least 3 years with no dicernable aftertaste. The facts;
1- 8, 2 liter bottles (4 empty plastic Sprite & 4 empty OJ bottles)
1.1 Emptied and thouroughly rinsed
1.2 1- Drop of diluted chlorox (1+20) was dropped into 1/2 of the bottles
2- Each bottle was then filled to the brim with cold tap water.
2.1 The chlorinated bottles were filled with water through a fresh PUR faucet flter
2.2 1/2 of the unchlorinated bottles (2) were filled with plain cold Maryland tap water and the remaining (2) ones with PUR filtered tap water.
3-All bottles were 'tapped' to release air bubbles
3.1 All bottles were 'sqeeze' evacuated to increase vacuume pressure
3.2 a clean piece of saran wrap (2"X2") was placed over the mouth of each bottle prior to closing them with thier respective caps.
Results- After 3 years, the filtered waters tasted the same and had 'no' taste at all. The 2 bottles of plain unfiltered tap water had percipitated a fine layer of brown sediment and tasted slightly foul to undrinkable. Testing of all the waters revealed a substantian amount of Iron & Lead in the Unfiltered tap water and some micro-organisms in the unfiltered water and filtered un-clorinated waters alike. I did not try boiling any of the waters. I would have no problem drinking the chlorinated/filtered water even a year or two from now. One drop of 1+50 chlorox seems to be the ticket to dissinfecting the contents. The Saran Wrap ensures that a tight seal is made,preventing any air from entering. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif


----------



## _mike_ (Mar 29, 2004)

Actually, we are on our own well with a 500 gallon holding tank and a 120 gallon pressure tank. When the power goes out, I run my generator (runs on LP) to operate the pumps so we always have water.

But I still keep 2-3 gallons in the fridge. We rotate it out regularly cuz we drink it instead of running the tap to get the water colder.


Sooooo ...... everyone go dig their own well, sink a pump, setup a holding tank, get a generator. You'll be all set! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Mike


----------



## Topper (Mar 29, 2004)

I swap it out every 3 months or so. Also be careful what you store it around not just in. Paint kerosene other nasty things will leech through the plastic soda bottles and cause it to taste bad long before it becomes undrinkable. We have bad weather at times (tornados) and we are on a fault line so I try to keep a few things up just in case.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## PhotonWrangler (Mar 29, 2004)

The plastics used on water and soda bottles have a hardness rating that's usually stamped into the bottom of the bottle in the form of a single-digit number. I belveve, as someone else said here, that the softer plastics will leach into the water sooner than the harder ones. I believe the higher the number, the softer it is, thus the most food-safe bottle would be a # 1, while a #7 would be junk in terms of suitability for food or water storage.


----------



## Sinjz (Mar 29, 2004)

That's why I love this site, sooo many smart people. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Let me see if I got this straight. The Coke bottles are not ideal, BUT will work. The plastic leeching into the water will only affect taste, but is not hazardous. If in a pinch, I can drink and cook with this stuff with no ill affect. Is that right? The polycarbonate bottles and filters are more expensive options I'd prefer to skip for now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif

I did clean the bottles reasonable well before I filled them. Even did a quick swish with some boiling water. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I keep them sealed tight and in a corner covered by plastic bags. I'd do the chlorine thing, but my Clorox has that garden smell and I'm not sure how to break "a drop per gallon" down for a 2 Liter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Also afraid the chlorine would do something to the cheap plastic. Aten, did you have any such problem? Guess I'll force myself to work the boiled water into my water rotation, but it's hard waiting for the water to cool over night before pouring it into the bottles!

I checked my Coke bottle and on the bottom it has three arrow forming the corners of a triangle. Inside this triangle is the number 1 and under it is the word "PETE". Is this the food-safe bottle rating? Does this mean it's great for storage?!?


----------



## BuddTX (Mar 29, 2004)

If you are talking about building up a storage of hundreds of gallons, I would do some serious research to find the answer that you need.

BUT,

If you are talking about a couple of gallons, or enough for several people for several days, keep a supply (to be determined by you) of your favorite botled NON CARBONITATED water around and "label date" it. Use it up after one year, and replace the supply.

I would think that sealed, distilled water would keep the longest, but distilled water, does not taste very good, it has a flat taste to it. Distilled water has no impurities, just solid H2O. The minerals and other "finishing" techniques of bottled water give it a good taste.

My favorite bottled water, BTY, is SAMS'S CHOICE 20oz Purified Drinking Water.

I find that it is consistantly very very good. I have had other bottled water that I swear tasted worse than my tap water.

Also, your technique of boiling water and storing it in a clean container would be a great way to keep water around for washing and cleaning and rinsing etc.


----------



## BuddTX (Mar 29, 2004)

ALSO . . .

I do know that carbonated water does go bad.

I noticed that my SAM'S CHOICE 20 oz bottled water has a:

Produced Date 01-16-04
Exp Date 01-16-06

Never noticed that before.

Oh, and the stuff costs 2.50 for 12/20 oz bottles.


----------



## Flatscan (Mar 30, 2004)

*OT: Recycling codes*

PETE (standard clear bottled-water plastic) supposedly leaches dangerous chemicals into stored liquids over time and with repeated washings. Of course, this is from an article that also implies that polycarbonate (Nalgene) leaches dangerous amounts. I'll find the link sometime.

OT: I don't know anything about bottling or storing water, but I do know my plastic recycling codes. These are the numbers inside the triangular recycling symbol, usually with a short acronym descriptor.

1 - PETE: polyethylene tetra-something?
2 - HDPE: high-density polyethylene
3 - V?: PVC?
4 - LDPE: low-density polyethylene
5 - PP: polypropylene
6 - PS: polystyrene
7 - (none) "other"


----------



## Kristofg (Mar 30, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*BuddTX said:*
I would think that sealed, distilled water would keep the longest, but distilled water, does not taste very good, it has a flat taste to it. Distilled water has no impurities, just solid H2O. The minerals and other "finishing" techniques of bottled water give it a good taste.

[/ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I remember that drinking distilled water in large quantities wasn't exactly healthy due to osmosis as your cells start absorbing the water and without trace elements and minerals they just keep on expanding (in the way a cherry pops open when you leave it in a glass of water) Distilled water has a warning on over here as being "not suited for drinking".


As to how to preserve water, does anybody have one of those MSR waterfilters like the miniworks? I'd assume that that would turn almost any water into drinking water?


----------



## Aten_Imago (Mar 30, 2004)

Details on Storing Water in Plastic Bottles ( Please see my methodology-elsewhere in this thread).
1)Type of Bottle I prefer- 'Simply Orange' Brand - PETE 1- looks and feels like Nalgene™ and like Nalgene, seems dimensionally stable. I like this bottle because A) It's got a nice wide mouth and rock solid cap B) The orange juice that's sold in it is the best IMHO.C)The plastic is crystal clear and stable.
2) How I dilute household Chlorox. A) Buy a small 6-8 oz bottle of Spring or Distilled water B) with a sterile dropper, put 10 drops of chlorox into the freshly opened bottled water.C) reseal and turn upside down 3-4 times 
3) Now you can add 1 drop of that 1-50 diluted chlorox water to your 'storage' containers of 2 litres.
4) I have yet to notice any damage to the plastic inside of bottles of water sanitized in this way.
* Some points...
1) If you pour boiling water into store-bought soda bottles- it may do more harm in releasing plasticizers than dirty water possible could!?
2) If you let the water cool before pouring it into the storage bottles, then when it reaches a temp of less than 150º- it will be open season for micro-organisms to establish themselves.
3)Filtering does more than remove micro-organisms, it removes city water chlorine taste (much more in unfiltered water than in my home-bottled water), Lead, Iron, Mercury, Silt,and more!
4) My PUR faucet filter cost me $25.00 in 1996, each of the two included filters cleans about 100 Gallons so that's $12.00 /per 50 Gallons. You can't buy bottled water for that little -even at CostCo!
5) Finally- for those wondering about the safety of drinking personally-chlorine-disinfected and purified water. I secretly drew 4 oz of water from the middle of my local pool 2 days ago and tested it against my personally-chlorine-disinfected and purified water...The _*Heated *_pool's water had nearly 300 times the chlorine in it. According to my buddy in FDA- about 250 times that of chlorinated city water. That might explain why I can't swim in that pool anymore- it's like soaking in battery acid! Whew! sorry for the long diatribe. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif


----------



## Muppet (Mar 30, 2004)

I have an MSR water filter, and it works pretty well - but you wouldn't want to use it for doing large batches!

The big issue with ceramic filters like the MSR is clogging - if the water is contaminated with tannins (think: lake water in many cases) it will clog the filter. The rule of thumb seems to be "beware brown water". 

Larger particulates can be got rid of with a prefilter like a cotton bandana (old silk is even better) or by allowing the water to settle for an hour or two before filtering, and only taking from the middle of the settling container.

Also, filters don't touch viruses - for that you need purifiers, which have a chemical step. Take a look at the MIOX filter, or the Stelilite Pen for alternatives if that's a worry where you are.


----------



## Sub_Umbra (Mar 30, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
Muppet:
Also, filters don't touch viruses -

[/ QUOTE ] 
Filters that employ the *reverse osmosis* technology do. They will remove down to 0.1-0.3 micron particles -- which will get viri. I think that they will even take salt out of water, but I'm not sure.

I don't like the reverse osmosis filters because they must be plumbed into the system and they require electricity for periodic flushing. Both of those requirements make them much less desireable for emergencies -- and out of the question for apartment dwellers.


----------



## PhotonWrangler (Mar 30, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Sinjz said:*
I checked my Coke bottle and on the bottom it has three arrow forming the corners of a triangle. Inside this triangle is the number 1 and under it is the word "PETE". Is this the food-safe bottle rating? Does this mean it's great for storage?!? 

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the spot! Yes, it looks like you have a good storage bottle there in terms of minimum leaching of plastic. I dunno who "Pete" is though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


----------



## Aten_Imago (Mar 30, 2004)

reverse osmosis - My parents have a pool with that kind of filter - Pain In The Neck to Clean!


----------



## Atomic6 (Mar 31, 2004)

I have had 250 Gallons stored in 55 gallon plastic water drums since 1999 (Y2K Scare). It is now time for a purge and re-fill. That will be a big job and I'll do it this summer. I had used pure bleach product made for water stoarge. They said to expect 5 years storage life. These drums have been stored indoors. I'll see what I've got when I open them up in a few months.


----------



## JonSidneyB (Apr 11, 2004)

The boiling will do nothing for inorganic materials and some organic toxins are poison when dead. Boiling will kill what is alive in there but nothing more. Here is my thought on the subject. 
Start with clean water, store in a suitable container. Learn what the molecule that will be leached into the water is and hope that it is a large molecule. Get the appropriate filter. This filter should last along time because your only contamination will be the container leaching. I do not know if this is best or not but it sounds good to me.


----------



## stockwiz (Apr 11, 2004)

You can also use food grade hydrogen peroxide 35% grade to purify water, 3 to 5 drops to the gallon. This is by far the healthiest way to purify water because hydrogen peroxide can be consumed completely safely in small amounts, (the human body makes it's own hydrogen peroxide to fight anaerobic pathogens) and hydrogen peroxide through oxidation can destroy not only pathogens but pollutants and toxins as well. Hydrogen peroxide is present in minute amounts in all natural water sources like lakes and rainfall, and purifys the water and soil, just like ozone purifys the air.

You don't want to use 3% hydrogen peroxide available in stores to do this, because chemical stablizers are added. It must be 35% "food grade"


Hydrogen peroxide is a proven, cost-effective solution for a variety of water, soil, and toxic air emissions. Refineries, chemical plants, paper mills, municipalities, soil remediators and many other types of operations use hydrogen peroxide. With it, they treat or control aldehydes, phenols and other aromatic compounds, reduced sulfur compounds, chlorine, cyanides, NOx, SOx, BOD, COD and several other pollutants.

Chemical Synthesis

Hydrogen peroxide and its in-situ derivatives are powerful oxidizing agents that are environmentally attractive, yet capable of oxidizing a wide range of organic compounds. Hydrogen peroxide is widely used in epoxidation and hydroxylation reactions and it is an excellent choice in oxidative cleavage reactions and for oxidizing ketones, aldehydes, alcohols, organic nitrogen and organic sulfur compounds. Hydrogen peroxide can also be used in a variety of solvent systems since it is soluble in water, many organic solvents or the substrate itself.


----------



## Sub_Umbra (Apr 11, 2004)

stockwiz, Very interesting post.

[ QUOTE ]
stockwiz: 

You don't want to use 3% hydrogen peroxide available in stores to do this, because chemical stablizers are added. It must be 35% "food grade"


[/ QUOTE ] 

Where's the best place to buy it, what does it cost, how do you use it?

Does it keep well?

Thanks


----------



## Luminessence (Apr 11, 2004)

Here is a site that shows what to do about emergency water supplies. I keep a bottle of regular bleach on hand and as well as a 7 gallon jerry container of water. It is not that difficult to keep it "fresh" by changing it every month or so. Emergency Water Purification


----------

