# Most reliable: Fenix, Nitecore, Olight, or other?



## HEDP (Nov 27, 2016)

I have a New Nitecore TM and an Olihjt Jacelot. Both initially had a one time problem where they wouldn't work. I haven't had that problem since. But it was troubling. I could be wrong but I was under the impression that Fenix, Nitecore, and Olight are the big 3 of flashlights, similar to Ford, Chevy, and Dodge. Am I right?

Im thinking about getting a new flashlight and was looking at a Fenix in hope of not having any reliability issues to worry about. I was thinking something like the Fenix FD41. 


*Most reliable: Fenix, Nitecore, Olight, or other?*


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## DMS1970 (Nov 27, 2016)

I've only owned 4 nitecore lights and I had issues with 3 of them. Tons on Nitecore bashing threads on here. I still can't bring myself to buy another one. I do have over 12 Olight flashlights and have only had 1 issue. The rubber switch cover popped of an S1. I'd put zebralight near the top, but no manufacture is without the occasional issue.


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## PartyPete (Nov 27, 2016)

The FD41 is a new model and a unique one at that, so it's hard to say what the longevity will be like. It's quite a different design for them.

I will say, my humble layman's opinion here is Fenix quality is pretty good and I've never had any issues with their lights. People, for whatever reason, sometimes have a chip on their shoulder with Fenix, maybe being a more mainstream brand but they are solid lights. 

Most common complaints that I see? Nitecore. I've returned two myself.


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## AVService (Nov 27, 2016)

Fenix here too probably. I have many and had zero issues so far.

I have also had great luck with Olight but they do not seem as tough in general to me but they do offer true Moonlight modes which is reason enough to choose over any Fenix for many of us.


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## Treeguy (Nov 27, 2016)

I love my Thrunites. They just... work.


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## Enderman (Nov 27, 2016)

Probably fenix for best quality. I have seen several complaints about olight.
I think the reason people see so many complaints about nitecore is because they sell like 10x more flashlights than their competitors, you can even see just by looking at their product list that they have a ton more variety too.
So it makes sense that more sales = more complaints.


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## LightWalker (Nov 27, 2016)

There are several other more reliable lights but they are considerably more expensive.
My Fenix lights have served me well the last 5-7 years.


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## LeanBurn (Nov 27, 2016)

Treeguy said:


> I love my Thrunites. They just... work.



yep


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## Bdm82 (Nov 27, 2016)

Didn't nitecore also go through a significant quality shift (for the better) about 2-3 years ago?

I still don't think they're quite as soundly / consistently made as Fenix, but the bashing threads I've noticed were on lights made a while back. (The TIP lockout issue being a recent exception.)


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## Tachead (Nov 27, 2016)

HEDP said:


> I have a New Nitecore TM and an Olihjt Jacelot. Both initially had a one time problem where they wouldn't work. I haven't had that problem since. But it was troubling. I could be wrong but* I was under the impression that Fenix, Nitecore, and Olight are the big 3 of flashlights, similar to Ford, Chevy, and Dodge. Am I right?
> *
> Im thinking about getting a new flashlight and was looking at a Fenix in hope of not having any reliability issues to worry about. I was thinking something like the Fenix FD41.
> 
> ...



Not really. Fenix, Nitecore, and Olight are more like Kia, Hyundai, and Fiat. Medium quality imported brands that are reliable sometimes. Malkoff, Elzetta, and Surefire would be a better analogy as they are reliable US brands. If you want high quality, reliable offshore brands with good warranty, then I recommend Zebralight or Armytek.

To rate the three you listed from best to worst, I would say Fenix then Olight then Nitecore.


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## LightWalker (Nov 27, 2016)

The Malkoff MDC series is the way to go if reliability is high on your priority list, unless you are bothered by PWM.


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## archimedes (Nov 27, 2016)

Peak is extremely reliable too.

Malkoff, in addition to rock-solid reliability, has unsurpassed customer service.


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## Capolini (Nov 27, 2016)

I have a combined total of 12 [7 Fenix/5 Olight] Fenix /Olight lights. Seven are modded by Vinh.

I have NOT had One issue w/ any of them. They are between 2 and 4 years old. No complaints whatsoever! :twothumbs


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## Onthebrightside (Nov 27, 2016)

I have 9 fenix without a hitch one is a Vinh.... Even better, but have been on a nitecore kick lately 6 of them with no problems as of yet and want to try an olight.


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## LeafSamurai (Nov 27, 2016)

I have 3 Nitecore lights and have to return 2 of them for service issues. So yea, no more Nitecore for me until I'm sure that they have improve their QC. They do sell more lights but that's no excuse for the multiple complaints. It should be the other way round, with more lights sold and less needing servicing as they improve their production and QC issues.


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## HEDP (Nov 27, 2016)

LightWalker said:


> The Malkoff MDC series is the way to go if reliability is high on your priority list, unless you are bothered by PWM.




What is PWM?


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## gurdygurds (Nov 27, 2016)

Malkoff.


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## Newlumen (Nov 27, 2016)

Eagtac. Fenix.


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## LeafSamurai (Nov 27, 2016)

HEDP said:


> What is PWM?



PWM = Pulse Width Modulation. For more in depth explanation, refer to this link: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...t-is-it-How-does-it-work-and-how-to-detect-it


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## wvdavidr (Nov 27, 2016)

My least reliable: Fenix. I have reliability issues, which couldn't be resolved without returns or returns to China. Runner up: Eagtac.

Best for me: Olight. I have a bunch of them and no troubles so far. After posting this, they'll probably all fail!!


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## Woods Walker (Nov 28, 2016)

My gut says Fenix is the most reliable of the listed but all 3 are ok IMHO just based on my actual field experience. If I really really need a light to work aka out in the dank dark woods I pack two. Also think the single mode M61(pick your Ls, tint and LEDs) combined with a SF (G2, G2Z, 6p, C2 etc etc) host using a twisty tail cap is probably the most reliable light possible. Just thinking that cuz there isn't much to go wrong. No clicky to click out. Potted electronics. Simple electronics. I can get easier field access to the bezel than MD2 for an engine change should the crazy unlikely happen and I need to pull it. But is that level of durability and reliability really needed for everyone all the time? Some of these makers off options which are rather compelling. Some of their offering are probably more durable and reliable than others. They make a bunch of models.


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## vadimax (Nov 28, 2016)

Treeguy said:


> I love my Thrunites. They just... work.



+1. Not a single failure, switch malfunction or whatever.


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## zs&tas (Nov 28, 2016)

Enderman said:


> Probably fenix for best quality. I have seen several complaints about olight.
> I think the reason people see so many complaints about nitecore is because they sell like 10x more flashlights than their competitors, you can even see just by looking at their product list that they have a ton more variety too.
> So it makes sense that more sales = more complaints.



Thats exactly what i was thinking, honestly they are all much the same. I dread to think what your postage costs are in the usa but i have sent three lights to china for replacement or repair, one was a thrunite.... And it did not cost much at all.


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## HughJorgan (Nov 30, 2016)

Prometheus is pretty reliable, though also niche.


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## Newlumen (Nov 30, 2016)

I own 1 thrunite tn36ut about 9 months old. the switch is not reliable. Its start to fail... hopefully i can replace it myself.


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## Phil2015 (Nov 30, 2016)

I have had a Nitecore EA41 for the last 3yrs, I have used it almost every evening for 5-10mins at a time, sometimes longer and havent had a problem with it so far.. Also a few weeks back I used it as a lantern for a constant 2-3hrs on medium setting because we had a powercut. It makes a great lantern standing upright so the beam bounces of the ceiling. 

I have just bought my dad the LED LENSER P14.2 for xmas and I hope that will be as reliable as my EA41


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## vadimax (Nov 30, 2016)

Just got Elzetta Bravo. Checking if its reliability is true


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## Impossible lumens (Nov 30, 2016)

Treeguy said:


> I love my Thrunites. They just... work.


+1


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## Impossible lumens (Nov 30, 2016)

PartyPete said:


> The FD41 is a new model and a unique one at that, so it's hard to say what the longevity will be like. It's quite a different design for them.
> 
> I will say, my humble layman's opinion here is Fenix quality is pretty good and I've never had any issues with their lights. People, for whatever reason, sometimes have a chip on their shoulder with Fenix, maybe being a more mainstream brand but they are solid lights.
> 
> Most common complaints that I see? Nitecore. I've returned two myself.


FD41 is successor to FD40. I have an FD40 and like it. It's not the brightest but you get a perfect wall of light for flood and the zoomed in throw is more akin to a reflector style throw as opposed to the classic zoomie "tunnel". 

FD40 has been reliable for me. I use it in flood for a bike light and one time it fell off when I was going pretty fast on the pavement, no change in function, only a few dents and nicks.

As for reliability between the three mentioned manufacturers? I don't have an opinion between Olight and Fenix but definitely put Nitecore last. I've had about 12 each of Nitecore and Olight with zero defective Olights and three defective Nitecores. Not sure how to chalk that up to Nitecore just producing more quantity other than they lose track of QC. However, the luck of the draw is the luck of the draw and you never know when, that one, lemon might show up.


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## flashlight chronic (Dec 1, 2016)

I have one Nitecore and several Fenix lights w/ no issues from either brand. But like Treeguy and some other members here, i do love my Thrunite.


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## hiuintahs (Dec 1, 2016)

HEDP said:


> I have a New Nitecore TM and an Olihjt Jacelot. Both initially had a one time problem where they wouldn't work. I haven't had that problem since. But it was troubling. I could be wrong but I was under the impression that Fenix, Nitecore, and Olight are the big 3 of flashlights, similar to Ford, Chevy, and Dodge. Am I right?
> 
> Im thinking about getting a new flashlight and was looking at a Fenix in hope of not having any reliability issues to worry about. I was thinking something like the Fenix FD41.


I would also consider Eagletac, Sunwayman, Thrunite and others that I am forgetting to be in with that bunch too. That said, I have more Fenix and Nitecore than any others. For me I don't look at what may be the most reliable but that which simply has the features I'm after........then I just take my chances. For the most part, these brands seem reliable considering how many are sold.


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## Snipe315 (Dec 1, 2016)

I have many flashlights from Surefire, Fenix, 4Sevens, Eagletac, and OLight among others.

The most reliable have been the Surefires. Second would be the Eagletac and then OLight. I've had issues with a couple of my Fenix lights and with the 4Seven Quark.


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## Mkduffer (Dec 1, 2016)

I've several Nitecores (HC20, MT10A), a few Thrunites (TN20..) Olights (S1, S10RII), a few Xtars (H2, WK42), some Klarus, Convoys, etc..

Haven't really had much problems with any of them, but I'm careful not to drop them, use lanyards/leashes with quick disconnects, etc.. The Thrunites are well built, but I can see myself having issues down the road with the TN20. Just basic common sense. When something has more moving parts, it's more likely to have a failure. I also have a few Jetbeams and a Tank007, both twisties. Not my favorite UI, but because of simplicity, I'm not expecting them to fail, and truth be told, if they do, not like they set me back a ton of dough.

Both the HC30 and MT10A rotate into my EDC, in fact, the MT10A is one of the lights that rarely leaves my EDC. Everything that I have from Nitecore has been rock solid. The Olights are nice too, and smaller thinks can be relatively less likely to break.

Recently received the new 2016 Fenix HL10 and I'm really liking it, although the rotating diffuser is bogus. Can hardly notice the difference. Also have a Skilhunt H15. I like it, but it feels somewhat less polished. Not sure that's a bad thing, though.

The only light I've had problems with is a Klarus Mi7 which has ridiculously high parasitic drain. Pretty sure it's a lemon. I'm not a fan of Klarus's warranty service.


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## CREEXHP70LED (Dec 3, 2016)

I went through several Nitecores, never owned a Fenix yet, and 6-7 Olights. I never killed an Olight until I wanted to see how deep and for how long it could survive in the bottom of an 8 foot swimming pool. the Nitecore went first, then another brand (I can't recall the brand), The Olight lasted for about an hour and didn't actually completely die until the next day. If my life depends on it then Surefire is my light. The tail cap switch on the Olight M3SX-UT feels nicer than Surefire clickies. Surefire better get it in gear and stop charging $1,370 for 2,400 lumens those days are over. (I was a Surefire fanboy). Now all I have are the Titan, Titan Plus, PX2 Fury, PX3 Fury, and weaponlights like the Scout 600 lumen. Surefire could make two lights to knock it out of the park and get people interested in their lights. I know we are a niche client, but a 10,000 iumen flood light and a 2,000 lumen thrower, people would take note. 

Well, I actually say you get what you pay for unless it is a Ford, Dodge or Chevy. (The big three doesn't mean they are the best, otherwise Maglight would be in the light category.)


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## HEDP (Dec 7, 2016)

Snipe315 said:


> I have many flashlights from Surefire, Fenix, 4Sevens, Eagletac, and OLight among others.
> 
> The most reliable have been the Surefires. Second would be the Eagletac and then OLight. I've had issues with a couple of my Fenix lights and with the 4Seven Quark.




What type of issues?


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## BushcrafterAU (Jul 25, 2018)

Tachead said:


> Not really. Fenix, Nitecore, and Olight are more like Kia, Hyundai, and Fiat. Medium quality imported brands that are reliable sometimes. Malkoff, Elzetta, and Surefire would be a better analogy as they are reliable US brands. If you want high quality, reliable offshore brands with good warranty, then I recommend Zebralight or Armytek.
> 
> To rate the three you listed from best to worst, I would say Fenix then Olight then Nitecore.



I’m glad you said Olight is more similar to Fiat... you do have to remember that Fiat is the parent company of Ferrari!!


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## etc (Jul 25, 2018)

Other:

Malkoff Devices


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## Gadgetman7 (Jul 25, 2018)

If price doesn’t matter, I’d say HDS, Oveready, Malkoff, Elzetta then Surefire.


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## TA_ls1 (Jul 25, 2018)

I can't speak on Fenix because I only owned a PD35TAC for a few months, but I never had an issue. I've owned about 6 Nitecores and have issues with at least half. At least their customer service was good when I sent it into their US location. I've owned closer to 10 Olights and have only had one issue. I really like Olight. 

I agree the more expensive lights like the ones mentioned above (Surefire, Malkoff, etc) are generally more reilable, although that has not been 100% true for me. I have both a Malkoff and HDS. I haven't had the Malkoff long, but so far it's great and I haven't seen anyone with issues with Malkoff. The HDS is another story. I've had it for several years, and twice now I've had to send it in for warranty service. The first time I waited for a month to get it back. This time we'll see, I just sent it. I do find it upsetting that a light that I originally paid over $250 for has failed twice.

Edit: I forgot Zebralight somehow! The SC600w HI and SC62 have been 2 of my favorite and most used lights and have always been reliable.


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## marinemaster (Jul 26, 2018)

Only had Fenix from the list and they have always been crap. I have about four or five E05 that no longer work and some older E models that take 123 also no longer work. Fenix does NOT honor they warranty !!! 
The only Fenix that still works is E01 which is a copy design of Arc AAA.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Jul 26, 2018)

HEDP said:


> *Most reliable: Fenix, Nitecore, Olight, or other?*


I vote "other". Specifically, HDS.


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## LED_Power_Forums (Jul 27, 2018)

marinemaster said:


> Only had Fenix from the list and they have always been crap. I have about four or five E05 that no longer work and some older E models that take 123 also no longer work. Fenix does NOT honor they warranty !!!
> The only Fenix that still works is E01 which is a copy design of Arc AAA.



All 4 - 5 E05 failed? :thinking: Just curious, in what way they all failed to light up? Because I have 2 older version of E05 dated back from 7 - 8 years ago and they both still work fine till this day. Most of my light are Fenix and none have failed so far, though my newer E05 had failed to light up twice and was remedied by just simply off and on it again.


Mean while, I only have one Nitecore which uses AA battery format since negative review I've read mostly are coming from the built-in rechargeable Li-ion(failed to charge, hold charge etc). One age old Eagtac still lights up, and two OK Lumintop. The only one failed me so far is...Zebralight. The SC51c I had just refused to light up at random due to electronic problem I guess.


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## majid (Jul 28, 2018)

BushcrafterAU said:


> I’m glad you said Olight is more similar to Fiat... you do have to remember that Fiat is the parent company of Ferrari!!



Ferrari was spun off in 2016.


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## roach1492 (Jul 28, 2018)

I have had good luck with my Convoy lights,only 1 Fenix and no problem Zebra lights no problem. Ordered a Sunwayman last year had problems with the switch right off,didn't like the build quality got my money back.Had the tail spring come off my Manker EO2h,Jetbeam 1MK had to send in for service.


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## Climb14er (Jul 28, 2018)

My Olight M30 Triton, since 2008/9, my bedside and road travel defense light... the tailcap clicky finally gave out. I called Olight, explained what happened, they sent me a refurbished clicky, no charge. KUDOS AND VERY NICE OF THEM. First malfunction of any Fenix, Eagletac, Zebralight, Surefire... I've ever had! Fortunate to have picked good models and designs.


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## PartyPete (Jul 28, 2018)

marinemaster said:


> Only had Fenix from the list and they have always been crap. I have about four or five E05 that no longer work and some older E models that take 123 also no longer work. Fenix does NOT honor they warranty !!!


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## INFRNL (Jul 29, 2018)

Do you guys realize that you brought back a thread from over 2 yrs ago?


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## PiePuncher (Aug 2, 2018)

marinemaster said:


> Fenix does NOT honor they warranty !!!
> The only Fenix that still works is E01 which is a copy design of Arc AAA.



Fenix has been great with communications every time I have contacted them. 
I recently had an issue with a light and they offered to send me a new light out immediately. In my opinion, their customer service is top notch!


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## CelticCross74 (Aug 2, 2018)

MOST RELIABLE LED(non custom)

1. TIE-FENIX+Eagtac. Fenix is and has been the high output high feature LED Chinese made LED light standard for overall quality since they began really. Fenix is now overhauling their entire catalog to IP68 rated. I have had so may Fenix lights I lost count. The new IP68 rated Fenix models are built tight as a drum. Waterproof, dustproof, shockproof from a good height. 

Eagtac. Despite not yet having followed both Fenix and even Nitecores lead of overhauling their catalogs to IP68 rated lights I have had just as stellar luck with my near THIRTY Eagtacs over the years. They are IPX8 so very good just not completely dustproof or watertight for as long. The ONLY downside to most of my Eagtacs is most of mine have their head twist UI. ANY head twist UI light must have its contact points in the head that change the modes cleaned on a regular basis with DeOxit Red. Do that and you are golden. Eagtacs are some of the MOST HIGH FEATURE high output lights there are. I still do not know of any other LED light maker that offer so MANY accessories for most of their catalog. I have noticed quite well over time that all my Eagtacs have EXTREMELY GOOD and well made electronics/drivers. Arguably some of the best non potted in the industry.

2. Maglite! Of COURSE they are the high value and reliable LED C and D cell King! The recent XML2 overhaul in their C and D cell big lights also have a stellar driver designed to run best off cheap alkalines. I must have every single new gen XML2 big Mag they have now. You want reliability and SUPER MEGA RUN TIME? How does 15+ hours at 600 ish lumens out of either the 3 cell C and D XML2 Mags BEFORE they start stepping down. I even have the new XML2 6 D Mag! I have yet to need a flashlight for THAT LONG A PERIOD OF TIME to even TELL when this 6 D cell XML2 hammer steps down. Made in the USA and cheap!

As for "Fenix does not honor their warranty" I have used their warranty service a few times on some VERY out of warranty beat up old Fenix lights and every single one of them was covered for free parts and labor. I only had to pay cheap shipping TO their surprising NEW YORK STATE repair shop. So Idk.

3. Olight! I have several Olights. They are actually about the most well made IPX8 LED lights I have yet seen. None of them has ever given me a single issue.

4. Nitecore-NC has come an EXTREMELY long way vs say 5 years ago. I used to DETEST NC. My first NC was the first P12. It drove me nuts! The lens only had the AR coating applied to HALF of it. The first issue NC P12 fried on me in about a month. Have had several more NC's with okay luck.

5. Sunwayman-What happened to Sunwayman? At one point several years ago when their still outstanding D40A 4xAA "shorty" came out their designs were well respected. The couple of Sunwaymans that I have had after that were just very dissappointing and very badly made(V11R and P25C).


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## jabe1 (Aug 3, 2018)

Of the three you named, probably Fenix is most reliable.
that said, I personally would not pick one of them for reliability unless you talk about the fenix e01, the cockroach of flashlights.
the only truly reliable lights will have twist switching and be fully potted. Peak, or Malkoff are my choices for a " bomb proof" reliable light.


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## Boris74 (Aug 3, 2018)

Olight then nitecore. Fenix feel cheaper and never seen one with run times equal to the nitecore and Olight. My S1A runs significantly longer on the 200 lumens mode than my LD09 does with the same exact cell. Gave it to my wife and a week later it went into the junk drawer. Her reason, it dies too quick. She’s constantly stealing my S1A.


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## king2penn (Aug 5, 2018)

We sell all 3. Have to put Olight first, Fenix closeby behind & Nitecore in 3rd throughout our 10 year history of selling lights.


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## campingnut (Aug 5, 2018)

Fenix E01 is nearly indestructible. If you are asking about absolute reliably, you must look at HDS, SUREFIRE, OR MALKOFF. I know others will recommend McGizmo, although I have no personal experience with his lights, although it is on my bucket list...


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## seery (Aug 5, 2018)

Over the years, I’ve had the following lights fail on me...

HDS (Ra Twisty and Novatac 120P)
Fenix (TK35UE)
Malkoff (Wildcat)
Surefire (X300 and Saint)
Nitecore (TM16GT)
Imalent (DX80) 

But never an Acebeam or Olight.

So from my personal experience owning many lights, Acebeam and Olight are the most reliable.


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## etc (Aug 6, 2018)

1. Malkoff
2. Malkoff
3. Malkoff

Sorry, but the customer is not always right.


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## precisionworks (Aug 6, 2018)

archimedes said:


> ... Malkoff, in addition to rock-solid reliability, has unsurpassed customer service.


 +1

Gene Malkoff is a rock star both for manufacturing an American-made light & for top notch customer service.

I've had problems with Nitecore headlights but not their flashlights.

Olight is my current favorite in a production light. The M2R Warrior is a great EDC light, 18650 with mag charging dock. The R50 Pro Seeker is my "avoid black skunks while walking the dog" light. We have an abundance of skunks & often see 3 or 4 every night. The R50 runs for hours on the 1500 lm setting & the 3200 lm Turbo Mode is nice for extra reach. 

YMMV.


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## Simonbilodeau (Aug 7, 2018)

I bough 2 nitecore , problem with both, and they never answer or refound....fenix are very good, reliable but :candle:zebralight , just the best or the best!


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## roach1492 (Aug 9, 2018)

Must agree with Simonbilodeau Zebralight.


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## markr6 (Aug 9, 2018)

I like a lot of the ideas from Nitecore, but just can't trust them. The TM10K behemoth just announced...wow. Not touching that one


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## Fireclaw18 (Aug 9, 2018)

markr6 said:


> I like a lot of the ideas from Nitecore, but just can't trust them. The TM10K behemoth just announced...wow. Not touching that one



Yeah that TM10K looks nice. Flat rectangular shape. Fairly small. Looks small enough to easily fit in a pocket actually, though probably still too big for pocket EDC.

And incredible output! 10,000 lumens max from 6x XHP35... from a SINGLE cell light. The cell it comes with is very nice too (Samsung 48g... one of the best 21700 cells). The only other lights that hit that level of output tend to be much larger multi-18650 coke-can lights.

The downsides?
Costs $400! YIKES!!!!
Samsung 48G is built-in and not replaceable (at least not without desoldering the battery).
10,000 lumen turbo only lasts 7 seconds!!! I wonder if you can override the rampdown by holding the button down like you can with the Concept 1?

Even with the 7-seconds of turbo I'd still have been interested in buying this light, but $400 for a single light is way outa my price range.


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## markr6 (Aug 9, 2018)

I wonder if they will repost that thread. I don't want to start a new one and steal their thunder.

I love the comments so far on reddit, BLF and elsewhere though. Mostly negative, and I would have to agree.


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## specv510 (Aug 9, 2018)

I have two Nitecore, six Olight and a couple Fenix. No issues with any of them.


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## CelticCross74 (Aug 12, 2018)

I FINALLY got some Surefire lights after over 20 years of collecting and despite being built as tough as a framing hammer I just cannot really put a reliability number on Surefire yet as I have only had mine a few months now. Why the HECK does SF NOT list basic info like emitter type and other BASIC info like near all other makes anyways? They sure are EXPENSIVE. Then again my 1500 lumen Duel Fuel Fury and my near impossible to find 1500 lumen and Intellibeam Duel Fuel version of this Fury are AMAZING! But...they cost THAT much and ...not even a HOLSTER??? COME ON MAN!! Still when SF says 1500 lumens BOY do they mean it..the design of the 1500 lumen Furys is one of the BEST mid size high output LED designs I have ever seen or had. It is very specific to the top dog duel fuel 1500 lumen retina blaster. I have yet to mix them up with my other Furys lol. Everything is supposedly fully potted as well....

But of course they do not mention it gosh darn it!


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## Nimitz68 (Aug 12, 2018)

CelticCross74 said:


> I FINALLY got some Surefire lights after over 20 years of collecting and despite being built as tough as a framing hammer I just cannot really put a reliability number on Surefire yet as I have only had mine a few months now. Why the HECK does SF NOT list basic info like emitter type and other BASIC info like near all other makes anyways? They sure are EXPENSIVE. Then again my 1500 lumen Duel Fuel Fury and my near impossible to find 1500 lumen and Intellibeam Duel Fuel version of this Fury are AMAZING! But...they cost THAT much and ...not even a HOLSTER??? COME ON MAN!! Still when SF says 1500 lumens BOY do they mean it..the design of the 1500 lumen Furys is one of the BEST mid size high output LED designs I have ever seen or had. It is very specific to the top dog duel fuel 1500 lumen retina blaster. I have yet to mix them up with my other Furys lol. Everything is supposedly fully potted as well....
> 
> But of course they do not mention it gosh darn it!


I understand your pain. I have been using/collecting Surefires for more than 20 years (back to the original 6P/3P/9P) and Surefire has never published that kind of information. Perhaps they consider it proprietary, and the fact they have been the industry leader for so many years has ingrained this in their minds. The one thing you will ALWAYS get from Surefire is accurate outputs. If anything, they have the tendency to undervalue/underestimate the performance of their lights. That is the major reason I have used them for so long. And you're correct - the new Fury DFT is a beast. I am very impressed with mine. Good buy at about $150 for 1500 lumens.


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## CelticCross74 (Aug 12, 2018)

Industry leader due to MASSIVE US Gvt. Contracts and crates upon crates of SF brand CR123 cells of course. I am VERY impressed with my Surefires thus far. Lets see here 4 Fury's, 3 have the Intellibeam feature. I will go ahead and say it...the Intellibeam feature, which is basically a very small light collecting tube connecting to a sensor, built in like that is one of the most impressive features I have ever seen in any light. It actually works for my eyes at least. My DF IB Fury. The only way it does NOT devour fresh cells like the NON IB DF Fury I have is BECAUSE of the IB feature. Thus far it is worth the slight shadow the light collecting tube cast in the beam profiles. Gosh darn it! They are VERY well built wow! This Fall and Winter will see their use a lot. They HAVE to be using the Cree XHP35HD emitter...

I have so MANY lights I have holsters from other brands that fit all I have perfectly but still. Lets see I have 7 Surefires now...I will hold at that for a good while. Maglite is made in the USA too..


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## Nimitz68 (Aug 12, 2018)

I'm glad you like the Intellibeam feature so much. I do not, as I do not want my flashlight deciding how much light it's going to put out. I have recently started buying and using Malkoff products. These are excellent and made in the USA as well. However, they do not come with holsters either. I think the only lights that come with holsters are those made overseas. If that is the choice I would have to make in order to get a free holster, then no thanks. I am very happy and satisfied with my Surefires (50+) and Malkoffs (8).


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## maglite mike (Aug 12, 2018)

I have a bunch of Malkoffs and a fe elzettas for weapon mounts. For my daily beaters , night stand , vehicles, and edcs I use Maglites. All made in USA. That's a must for me.


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## Boris74 (Aug 13, 2018)

CelticCross74 said:


> I FINALLY got some Surefire lights after over 20 years of collecting and despite being built as tough as a framing hammer I just cannot really put a reliability number on Surefire yet as I have only had mine a few months now. Why the HECK does SF NOT list basic info like emitter type and other BASIC info like near all other makes anyways? They sure are EXPENSIVE. Then again my 1500 lumen Duel Fuel Fury and my near impossible to find 1500 lumen and Intellibeam Duel Fuel version of this Fury are AMAZING! But...they cost THAT much and ...not even a HOLSTER??? COME ON MAN!! Still when SF says 1500 lumens BOY do they mean it..the design of the 1500 lumen Furys is one of the BEST mid size high output LED designs I have ever seen or had. It is very specific to the top dog duel fuel 1500 lumen retina blaster. I have yet to mix them up with my other Furys lol. Everything is supposedly fully potted as well....
> 
> But of course they do not mention it gosh darn it!



They are great lights. I was a surefire user (not a collector) for just over 20 years and I never got more than 5-6 years of use from any of them. When my Backup took a dump, that was it, can’t spend money like that every 5-6 years no matter how much I pay for a warranty, and that’s what it felt like. 

When the backup died and got tossed an olight S1R replaced it. The original cell has over 200 to dead to full charge cycles of in light charging. Put in a spare cell and stored it with another S1R spare cell for a few months. Two days ago I checked both. 4.17V on both. So the original cell will be tested again when it hits 400-500 charge cycles from completely drained to completely full. It’s a fraction of the back ups price and destroys it in function and reliability. In just over a year it’s saved me about $400.00 in battery cost too. Just that one light alone. Looking back on the backups use hours, the S1R has equaled it and more than likely has surpassed it with hours being run. 

Good lights they are, not at the price point. Yup, R&D, USA made and the rest of the list, but I’m not too thrilled when I hear “oh but that warranty”. Yup, I used to be one of them and I have come to realize I want to buy flashlights, not a warranty. My nitecore MT10A is 10x the light the backup was at a fraction of the cost and is about the same size and it’s taken the same abuse the backup did. 

When olight released the M1T that was it. Just like the backup and all the other surefire I owned it’s going to be used (not collected) until it breaks. Going by how well the S1R holds up, it’s going to be much longer than 5-6 years.


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## mickb (Aug 15, 2018)

I'll never own enough flashlights to be a great judge on quality as I use the same few for work and hunting and don't collect. This industry is an arms race at the moment, which usually means technological possibilities are often outrunning workplace practicalities, being another thing that the market is dominated by light enthusiasts over work users, and battery capacity advances are a bit behind everything else. On the above brands my take is Fenix seem to be popular here for everyday and mainstream use and in performance/hunting lights olight is well represented. Of course malkoff, elzetta etc are a different level but their rarity in the volume of camping, remote work and night hunting done is a fairly good endorsement for the chinese lights being 'not too bad'. Australians tend to be very critical of gear performance , you will even see it on youtube reviews. its a cultural necessity with our weaker dollar, distance and lesser product support options we can't afford to ship things if they don't work. North Americans have the most experts and detailed analysis but you will have to pick the good unbiased reports.


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## XR6Toggie (Aug 16, 2018)

Nimitz68 said:


> I'm glad you like the Intellibeam feature so much. I do not, as I do not want my flashlight deciding how much light it's going to put out. I have recently started buying and using Malkoff products. These are excellent and made in the USA as well. However, they do not come with holsters either. I think the only lights that come with holsters are those made overseas. If that is the choice I would have to make in order to get a free holster, then no thanks. I am very happy and satisfied with my Surefires (50+) and Malkoffs (8).



In my experience a lot of belt holsters that come with flashlights are all very similar and don’t stand up to much wear and tear. Any pouch that is velcro fastened is no good to me. You are much better off sourcing a pouch/holster from someone like Bianchi or 5.11 anyway.


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## markr6 (Aug 16, 2018)

XR6Toggie said:


> In my experience a lot of belt holsters that come with flashlights are all very similar and don’t stand up to much wear and tear. Any pouch that is velcro fastened is no good to me. You are much better off sourcing a pouch/holster from someone like Bianchi or 5.11 anyway.



They're literally just scratch protectors to me. For throwing a bunch of flashlights in the same bag and not coming out looking like they went thru a tumbler.

The only exception I've seen was from Eagletac. Some of them I had in the past were very beefy holsters with a snap.


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## XR6Toggie (Aug 16, 2018)

markr6 said:


> They're literally just scratch protectors to me. For throwing a bunch of flashlights in the same bag and not coming out looking like they went thru a tumbler.
> 
> The only exception I've seen was from Eagletac. Some of them I had in the past were very beefy holsters with a snap.



That’s a good use for them. I only use belt holsters in a work context and every velcro-fastened belt pouch I’ve used has become useless after a few months due to being ripped open and rubbed against the car seat as I get in and out all the time.


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## bykfixer (Aug 16, 2018)

Other....


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## NH Lumens (Aug 18, 2018)

Just like any other consumer item, "reliability" is governed primarily by design, build quality and quality control of production.

Products are designed for specific kinds of use. For example, a power hand drill designed for full time professional contractors is going to be designed differently than one intended for occasional home owner use;


The build quality of the professional-use drill is going to use heavier, more durable parts (metal gears instead of plastic) and those parts will be housed in a more robust case to hold the parts in proper alignment during hard use
The pro-use drill will also have stricter QC measures in place during production and post-production inspection to ensure reliability
Of course, the price point between the two will be different as well

*So how about flashlights? *

The same applies: those designed for hard use, _especially those used in life-threatening situations such as fire fighting and LE_, are going to be designed and constructed differently than those intended for hobby/enthusiast expectations and those intended for more casual use.

*Design and build quality are observable*. Once way for a consumer to observe these qualities is to disassemble the item and take a look. Here is the tale of two lights;







A Foursevens Quark on the left, a Malkoff VME/MDC on the right. The Quark weighs 2.4 ounces, the Malkoff 4.0 ounces (both with battery inserted).






​
The Quark disassembled as far as I care to without risk of damaging it (I still carry this light in the glove box of my car). I can observe the following;


The circuit board is "tacky-glued" to a plastic disc in the bezel and be easily lifted off
There is little-to-no heat sinking, the aluminum reflector has minimal contact with the PC board
Not seen in the photo, the flip side of the PC board (with contact spring) is exposed on the battery side
Overall construction is very light and feels more fragile








The Malkoff disassembled as far as it can be (other than the McGizmo clicky switch and carry clip);
​


[*=left]The "drop-in" is a single piece with a heavy brass housing that encases the PC and reflector
[*=left]The PC is potted inside the brass housing for shock resistance and thermal transfer to the brass casing (heat sink)
[*=left]The PC is fully protected on the battery side
[*=left]​Overall construction is heavier and more robust

Another view;

​





If the light is dropped bezel first, the cell will impact the potting, not the PC board. The larger the cell, the more inertia it will have when it impacts. Without a mechanical stop in the body, an 18650 cell slamming into an unprotected PC board will result in damage to the PC board pretty quickly. 

So in terms of flashlight reliability, with a little disassembly one can usually observe how the light was designed and constructed. Quality of construction is generally a good indicator of how well the light will hold up over time to being left on and getting really hot, _repeatedly_ dropped on hard surfaces, being subjected to the shock of using the light as an impact tool, exposure to heat, cold and moisture, etc. I would also expect that lights with more moving parts (multiple switches, flood-to-spot adjustable bevels, pivoting heads, etc.) and complexity of operation are going to be more prone to failure than those with fewer parts and simpler user interfaces.

I have not had the opportunity to inspect the lights mentioned in the OP, but my guess is that they're all pretty similar based on their advertised specs and feature sets. _If ruggedness and long-term reliability were my ultimate concerns_, I'd be more inclined to limit my list to lights with known robust build quality, such as Elzetta, Malkoff and HDS.

Just my 2-cents and FWIW...


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## Crazyeddiethefirst (Aug 19, 2018)

NH Lumens, a well thought out presentation, with excellent photos, & excellent logic. However, Having used a lot of Four Sevens products over the years, as well as Surefire, Malkoff and all of the lights listed in the OP, the failure rate of Four Sevens is negligible compared to Surefire “in my experience”. This seems to defy logic. Except when you discuss the impact of an 18650 cell into a circuit board as opposed to potting the example is incomplete: the 18650 body by FourSevens has an end piece between the head of the body tube and the head of the light. I agree that a potted light is superior and should be used whenever used in conjunction with a fire arm and known severe conditions. As a Chief Flight Nurse I always carried both Surefire and Four Seven’s lights(usually because of the High CRI LEDs), but the difference in failure rate was negligible. I agree in premise that when in life threatening circumstances the better built light should be primary, I just did not see the end result as it would seem to logically appear to be. The only other comment I would add is that even the best designed light requires maintenance: clean electrodes, well lubed O rings, proper battery care and storage, etc.


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## NH Lumens (Aug 19, 2018)

Crazyeddiethefirst said:


> However, Having used a lot of Four Sevens products over the years, as well as Surefire, Malkoff and all of the lights listed in the OP, the failure rate of Four Sevens is negligible compared to Surefire “in my experience”.



That is why I did not include SF in my list above. Though I've never had any issues with the ones I've owned, they are not IMO built as well as Malkoff lights.

The original Quarks are an amazing value and great performers. The light shown in the photo of my previous post is run on an IMR 14500 cell and is a rocket considering its form factor. Other than a switch failure, that particular Quark I've had no issues with. 

But I did run into other issues with the Quarks. I began buying spare bodies, tail caps, etc. when production came to an end due to the SF lawsuit and I found that some body-head combinations did not function correctly. It seems the contact between the head and body was inadequate in those cases and due to what appears to be dimensional issues, did not allow the head to be programmed. A head that worked fine on one body did not on another. This all goes back to QC which unfortunately is not a strong point of many products made in China...and as you pointed out, an issue with some recent Surefire products as well.

FWIW, over the last few years all I buy is Malkoff and I've had zero issues with them. Add on top of that amazing build quality, the ability to Lego to my heart is content, simple no-nonsense UI and the Malkoff's dedication to customer service, I truly have no reason to look anywhere else. I'm also an advocate of supporting American companies and manufacturing, especially small businesses like Malkoff.

If I could only own one light, it would _without a doubt_ be a Malkoff...the only struggle would be deciding _which one_.


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## pomah (Aug 19, 2018)

Just to chip in. How good or bad the customer support of a certain company is has nothing to do with the reliability of the light, I could not care less if Gene answers the phone they day after my light broke in a life and death situation, reliability is just that, the light will turn on and give you the amount of light you need, always.

It is not told for what the reliability is needed here but as I see it it is more or less for those situations that will endanger you if the light will not function. In those cases it is important to think about the way the light functions. E.g. some situations will require the light to always be turned on in moon-light mode or similar, while others will cause lethal outcome if the light is not turned on i "high" mode. So make sure to choose a light that is designed for rugged use and also has the interface/functions that is required by your user-case.

I have been using foursevens for years, both privately and in LEO work, we have had around 10 lights for several years, Quark tactical turbo 2AA versions, not a single of them broke so that the ligth did not function but we had other issues:

1) On one light the glass broke after it was dropped repeatedly...
2) Leaking alkaline batteries made a few non functional and required cleaning
3) People sit and twist the head and "re-programme" them

I have been using a QT2L-X for over 5 yearrs with 0 issues, it has been dropped and it all beaten up and just beautiful to look at.

But moving forward I will be using something different, I just bought my first Malkoff and I can see the difference, it could be a possible solution and way forward. We will now move away from the programmable lights and go to a single mode lights, high only.


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## NH Lumens (Aug 19, 2018)

pomah said:


> 3) People sit and twist the head and "re-programme" them



One night I handed my Quark to my wife to take the dogs for their evening walk. I demonstrated how to tighten the bezel for high (turbo mode) and loosen for reduced mode, which I had set for 60 lumens.

She came back with the light blinking in some SOS mode and hands it back to me apologizing that she broke it. Evidently she was switching back and forth as I had showed her to do but got it into programming mode. 

So much for _my_ interest in programmable lights...


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## maglite mike (Aug 19, 2018)

NH Lumens said:


> One night I handed my Quark to my wife to take the dogs for their evening walk. I demonstrated how to tighten the bezel for high (turbo mode) and loosen for reduced mode, which I had set for 60 lumens.
> 
> She came back with the light blinking in some SOS mode and hands it back to me apologizing that she broke it. Evidently she was switching back and forth as I had showed her to do but got it into programming mode.
> 
> So much for _my_ interest in programmable lights...


I've had the same issues that's why the single mode Maglites are my favorite choice for around the house lights.


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## Crazyeddiethefirst (Aug 19, 2018)

NH Lumens, just to be clear, I love Malkoff products, and hands down one of the finest products on the market. I also have a number of VME heads to use Malkoff drop-ins in other form factors. I also am very pleased with the Malkoff work ethic and customer service. I did not start using Gene’s products until I was no longer working in the field. My comments were more in defense of Four Sevens and that disassembly of components alone did not tell the entire story. One other point I probably did not make clear is that I always carried a minimum of 3 lights, usually more, and on purpose from differing manufacturers. One companies weakness may be another companies strength. Ironically the most dangerous thing I do lately is to get in a car in Southern California, and yet I always have more lights than I could possibly need. I could point out strengths and weaknesses of most of the lights available, yet I enjoy having multiple lights from multiple makers in multiple configurations. The light that meets your need, is dependable as the circumstances call for and fits your budget is the right one, but I always recommend multiple layers of redundancy(two is one and one is none). I meant no offense & hope none was taken by my response to your post. I love CPF and that we can have intelligent discussions and present varied points of view-the answer to the question of reliability usually comes down to those points based upon circumstance: the LEO who is in a dark warehouse and being shot at has a much different need than the teacher in an interior classroom during a power failure-neither persons answer of what is best is necessarily right or wrong. I found your logical approach in your post to be very well presented, and had you used a number of different manufacturers other than Four Sevens I would have probably been 100% in agreement with you...


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