# ELE II Battery Holder & Switch Melting...help



## choppers (Sep 17, 2008)

Hi Guys, 

I set up my ELE II today with 8 Emoli cells running the Osram 64657 Lamp with a Hi temp KIU socket. Since there was space at the top of the battery holder I use 3 Nylon washers to fill the gap. Got everything secure and put in the holder + batteries, put on the tail-cap and turned on the light. Instantly it burned my finger and began to smell. I instantly turned it off. I took off the tail-cap and this is what I found:

















Any ideas of what went wrong??
Was it the nylon washers?
KIU Socket?
Should I have been using an AW Soft start switch?

Any help/advise/recommendations would be appreciated. 

Thanks in advance guys,

Tony


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## sylathnie (Sep 17, 2008)

Are you using the stock mag switch core?


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## choppers (Sep 17, 2008)

sylathnie said:


> Are you using the stock mag switch core?


I am not sure what you mean...I am using a KIU Hi-temp socket...


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 17, 2008)

Sounds like too much current for the switch to handle. What is the current draw from the batteries?

Bill


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## sylathnie (Sep 17, 2008)

If you are using the stock mag switch core it can't handle that sort of current. I just turns into a small heating element. 

Take a look at this thread for some tips on how to soup up your switch.

Take this as a nice warning as to how much power you are playing with and be careful :thumbsup:


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## choppers (Sep 17, 2008)

sylathnie said:


> If you are using the stock mag switch core it can't handle that sort of current. I just turns into a small heating element.
> 
> Take a look at this thread for some tips on how to soup up your switch.
> 
> Take this as a nice warning as to how much power you are playing with and be careful :thumbsup:


Would using a AW soft start switch solve the problem? I am not sure I can perform the modification to the switch you suggested...


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 18, 2008)

I have had some issues with the design of the Ellie-II, and I am not exactly sure what caused this instance, Chopper. 

I have expressed my findings previously in PM's to FiveMega, but I am now concerned about this as a safety issue that your instance raises. I am making this post with absolutely no intention to impugn or demean Fivemega's reputation/quality. FiveMega remains my favorite modder.

My major issues were the inside ridge that blocks using a KIU/Mag D switch (above switch hole), and the top battery holder plate makes contact with narrow body (below switch hole). 

FM told me that this Ellie was designed primarily to work with the AW Soft-Starting multi-level switch, which uses the ridge, and isolates the battery holder top. _However, AW's switch is only rated to work with 150W which is easy to exceed with overdriving 90-100W bulbs--so many would need to use KIU setup with 4s or higher Li-Ion setups.

_In addition, FM's sales thread says the Ellie-II will "accomodate *this* type_ (AW)_ switch *or stock M*g "D" switch*." (which is a part of the KIU assembly that you used, Choppers). To use the KIU/stock switch you have to Dremel grind out the inside ridge (just above the switch hole). 

*With this design, the FM Ellie-2 battery holder top contact plate (& Modamag's quad-wide 18650 as well) is too wide*. If you slide an empty quad-18650 battery holder inside of an empty Ellie-II, you will see that *the cap makes metal on metal contact with the narrow neck of the body*, below the switch area. This will result in a dead short of the positive battery pack against the negative grounded body. I do not regard the HA inside coating as an adequate insulator for this high voltge pack.

Looking at your pictures, Chopper, I cannot rule out the possibility that you may have had a dead short created from this scenario. I do not believe a switch overheating would give such a damage pattern on the top of battery holder as you show. Obviously if the inside plastic of the switch is all melted, it may be from that. Look inside of the body to see if it appears the HA coating shows arc electrical damage to verify the cause. If there was an arc/dead-short, it may also have heated and melted the bottom of the Mag switch.

The safest resolution which would be to get a thin Delrin or Nylon washer that would insulate the top battery contact plate from the inside narrow body area. After brought to his attention, I feel FM should have sent a cheap, thin insulator washer out to everyone purchasing the Ellie, or redesigned the cap with the same kind of insulating plastic layer he provided in his 3x17670 M-6 Battery holder here. The voltage and current output of 4x18650 Li-Ion (especially Emoli/Sony-V) is no joke. Then there are the 8s & 12s holders with body extensions that could be downright dangerous.

Now in FM's defense, should the buyer/user have an awareness of these kind of issues before purchasing? Yes. Do they all? No. This is the first FM product (of which I have bought many--and praise his quality routinely) that I have had this safety concern, and people should be aware of it and careful.

The other non-safety item in the Ellie-II sales thread which is not correct is where he says the Ellie-2 "Can accept all FM3 heads, 3.5" and even M*g "D" head." In fact, none of the 6 x FM3H-2 heads I have will fit the threads of the Ellie-II. All other FM3 & 3.5" heads will fit the Ellie-2. Interestingly, my FM3H-2 heads fit the original Elephant threads. There is no easy way to resolve this, so I have accepted it, but sales thread should be corrected.


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## choppers (Sep 18, 2008)

Thanks for your feedback Lux. 

Looking at the inside of the body the "ridge" that the Battery Holder hits looks to be melted/removed. So your theory is correct I think about an arc/dead-short. 

So even is I get an AW switch...should I still get the thin Nylon layer to protect the top of the battery holder to eliminate contact?

Thanks again for your help/feedback,


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 18, 2008)

It is hard to be sure of parts integrity once this has occurred, so I would recommend you contact FM about this. Check your batteries too.


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## cmacclel (Sep 18, 2008)

I just checked the Elle II I have here and see the problem. 

The Brass contact on the battery holder does make contact with the body with the stock mag switch installed. The easiest fix would be to install a plastic washer but since the brass contact is cut tapered this may be a problem. To fix it correctly you would just need to make the upper brass contact a smaller diameter. 


If anyone (US only)wants this done before FM gets a hold of things they can send them to me for rework, just pay for return shipping and a $1 envelope. The upper contact weights under 2 ounces so First class should be cheap.

Mac


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## MorpheusT1 (Sep 18, 2008)

Awsome gesture Mac:bow:


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## Mettee (Sep 18, 2008)

I second that, very good gesture.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 18, 2008)

WoW, sending mine to you Mac. This was exactly what I asked FM to do with these tops...to no avail. So this is really nice and everyone should take note. Email sent...also about possibly doing Modmag's that have the same problem.



The *bottom of Mag D Switch measures 1.337" *so any larger battery top will contact metal around bottom of switch.


Original Elephant top contact measures *1.24"*


Ellie-2 top contact measures *1.495"*


Modamag 4x18650 holder top is *1.625"*

Sometimes a picture makes it clearer for people.


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## choppers (Sep 18, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> WoW, sending mine to you Mac. This was exactly what I asked FM to do with these tops...to no avail. So this is really nice and everyone should take note.


Agree Lux. Thank you Mac. Will be sending you a couple.

Thank you,


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## sylathnie (Sep 18, 2008)

Ahhh that makes alot more sense than a switch short. I couldn't figure out how that burn pattern was produced but I have seen shorts do stranger things.
I replaced my contact on the bottom of my mag switch with a copper rivet that stands about .25" away from the bottom of the stock switch. That must be what is saving me.
Excellent find Lux.


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## cnjl3 (Sep 24, 2008)

I have to admit that I am a little bit disappointed with FM's reply when I asked him if he was going to offer a solution to his V2 "Elle" design flaw which can lead to a "Dead Short." I notice FM has already edited his Version2 Elephant sell thread and his only words to me were to make sure that the MAG switch was not inserted "too far in." Lucky for me Mac did his magic on my V2 "Elle" battery carrier postive cap and now I feel 100% safe that my battery carrier wont end up shorting out and looking like Choppers. I notice that even Mac was thinking that FM would soon offer a fix (see Post#10). This is not the first FM battery carrier that I have had problems with. Previously I had a 12AA to 3D battery carrier that was bad from day one and FM eventually replaced it. I say eventually because by the time i noticed that the battery carrier was not working the run had ended and i had to wait for the next 12AA to 3D battery carrier run before FM replaced it - *BUT IT WAS REPLACED* and all I could think of was what a nice guy FM is to offer this world class service! So that is why I am a little bit disappointed. I wonder if there shouldnt be a cross post to this thread as a warning to all the loyal customers who purchased V2 Elle's before FM edited/corrected his sell thread? I say this only because before I shipped my brass positive cap to MAC for his "Fix" you could see the impression from the ridge around the MAG switch quite clearly because at least in my V2 Elle I notice that the tail cap/spring feels like it is really pushing hard on the battery carrier. 




LuxLuthor said:


> I have had some issues with the design of the Ellie-II, and I am not exactly sure what caused this instance, Chopper.
> 
> I have expressed my findings previously in PM's to FiveMega, but I am now concerned about this as a safety issue that your instance raises. I am making this post with absolutely no intention to impugn or demean Fivemega's reputation/quality. FiveMega remains my favorite modder.
> 
> ...


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## monkeyboy (Sep 25, 2008)

Mac's solution is definitely a lot better than backing the switch out. For those of us that don't have access to a lathe and want to do it themselves, reducing the diameter of the brass nut is fairly straightforward. All you need is a powerful drill and some coarse sandpaper. I used a 550W drill and 60 grade sandpaper.

-Clamp the brass nut tightly in the drill. The raised nipple is just long enough for a drill to clamp onto.

-Get someone to hold a strip of sandpaper on a table and sand away with the drill. Keep moving the drill so that you're not using the same spot of sandpaper.

It only took me about 10 mins to reduce the diameter to the right size but it would take a lot longer with a weak cordless drill. I was quite pleased with the results although the brass nut is no longer perfectly round.


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## choppers (Sep 25, 2008)

I sent my two ELE brass caps to Mac for his recommended fix. I have two ELE II's that I am running with the KIU Switch. One with the Osram 64623 Lamp with 4 Emoli's and have had no issues with that one. I still sent both caps to Mac to make smaller in diameter. I am thankful and appreciative to him for offering help correct the issue.


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## LuxLuthor (Oct 3, 2008)

Wanted to give a HUGE SHOUTOUT of THANKS to MAC who fixed all 4 of my Ellie FM-II caps, and all 3 of my Modamag caps. Plus he put nice cross hatch grips on the side like they had before he reduced their diameter. Now I can finally safely use my Ellie-II. :thumbsup:

*Thanks again, Mac !!!*


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## MorpheusT1 (Oct 3, 2008)

He is a great guy :twothumbs



But...
I am amazed that FM havent chimed in here...
He is the one who should have offered to do this.


Benny


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## chuck614 (Oct 3, 2008)

I, too, had a dead short with my Ellie II battery pack. The culprit was a screw inside the tail cap. When I installed the pack with four charged 18650's, the screw head grounded to the + pin in the center of the charging jack of the pack. Fortunately it didn't ruin my AW switch, but I lost four expensive 18650's AND the battery pack. I had to pay to replace the pack. This was clearly another design flaw with the Ellie II, but it was fixed by removing the screw.
What was that screw for, anyway?


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## cnjl3 (Oct 3, 2008)

The phillips screw is for the tail cap resistance fix as FM explains in post#58 here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2498840#post2498840
I also had to remove the screw from the tail cap because my battery pack 
does not work with the tail cap screw installed?
I remove the screw and my Elle lights up
I install the screw and "nothing.) 
"If" I needed a tail cap resistance fix I most likely would just solder a wire 
from the top of the spring to the bottom and not mess with FM's solution.


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## rolltide (Oct 10, 2008)

A big thank you to Mac for being willing to fix the tops. It is not just a generous offer of his time and ability, it is a genuine service for the safety of our CPF community. I sent him 3 tops and he has agreed to fix all three. I can't wait to get them back. I just got 40 18650's and I am anxious to try them out. 

Very Generous,

Roll Tide

PS Mac, for 3 Mag D switches and a little extra just to say thanks for fixing the battery carrier tops.


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## starfiretoo (Oct 31, 2008)

Thanks to Lux i just found this thread. I too destroyed a battery pack and 4 AW's.


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## brighterisbetter (Nov 1, 2008)

Well I think I have a similar problem. The battery holder that came with the Elephant II Quad P7 from Mac has what looks to be a turned down and re-knurled +ve contact. And the extra holder I ordered from fivemega has a larger one. I haven't had any fires yet though because, simply, the second holder won't even fit in the EleII body all the way. It protrudes out the end too much to thread the tailcap on. What's everyone's advice as to what they'd suggest I do?

original on left vs. replacement on right


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 1, 2008)

brighterisbetter said:


> Well I think I have a similar problem. The battery holder that came with the Elephant II Quad P7 from Mac has what looks to be a turned down and re-knurled +ve contact. And the extra holder I ordered from fivemega has a larger one. I haven't had any fires yet though because, simply, the second holder won't even fit in the EleII body all the way. It protrudes out the end too much to thread the tailcap on. *What's everyone's advice as to what they'd suggest I do?*
> 
> original on left vs. replacement on right



Obviously, this is all on FiveMega. He sold them, so he should make it right when there is a defect or safety issue. Not sure why after all of these posts there is not some pro-active/responsible steps taken by him. If Mac is fixing tops so they don't dead short at FM's request, that would be nice to know.

We all understand that unforseen things can happen with custom mods...but these legitimate problems have an effect on people when not addressed by seller....including the cost of ruined cells. :thinking:


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## choppers (Nov 1, 2008)

brighterisbetter said:


> What's everyone's advice as to what they'd suggest I do?


Well. I would definitely not use the one that has not been fixed. I had two, one working fine and the one you see here in the thread...I received a replacement from FM and sent them both to Mac and he fixed them for me. I am thankful that he is offering this service as no matter how bright I like my lights, nothing can replace being safe. It is just not worth taking the risk and if I were you I would get the 2nd one you have fixed.


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## choppers (Nov 1, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> Obviously, this is all on FiveMega. He sold them, so he should make it right when there is a defect or safety issue. Not sure why after all of these posts there is not some pro-active/responsible steps taken by him. If Mac is fixing tops so they don't dead short at FM's request, that would be nice to know.
> 
> We all understand that unforeseen things can happen with custom mods...but these legitimate problems have an effect on people when not addressed by seller....including the cost of ruined cells. :thinking:


I am in agreement. Thankfully my cells are OK. I checked them all with my DMM and all voltage readings were the same as before the incident. I don't know if it was because I turned the light off as soon as I realized there was a problem or just luck. Either way this incident could have been much worse and it seems to me that the right thing to do would be to have all these caps fixed.


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## cmacclel (Nov 1, 2008)

choppers said:


> I am in agreement. Thankfully my cells are OK. I checked them all with my DMM and all voltage readings were the same as before the incident. I don't know if it was because I turned the light off as soon as I realized there was a problem or just luck. Either way this incident could have been much worse and it seems to me that the right thing to do would be to have all these caps fixed.


 

The problem here is the fact the light does not have to be on to short out.

Mac


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## choppers (Nov 1, 2008)

cmacclel said:


> The problem here is the fact the light does not have to be on to short out.
> 
> Mac


Now that I am thinking of it, when I turned the light off it was still shorting. Wow, all the more reason that this needs to be corrected. Thank you again Mac for offering your time to fix these.


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## Chodes (Nov 2, 2008)

I'm going to trust myself much more in future - I was a bit suspect about the close proximity of the top brass disc on the battery holder to the Elle body , but assumed it must be OK , no one else mentioned anything...

I think the only thing that saved me was a faulty battery holder - there was an open circuit to the connecting rod , which is also the positive path to the brass plate. (no connection between the arrows)

I was trying (in vain) to assembe an Elle85.


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## fivemega (Nov 2, 2008)

*Above pictures show clearly that there is no physical contact between brass nut and body.
As you see, it is 100% functional with stock switch.
If you grind off switch stopper wall, switch may move forward and cause electrical short between brass nut and body. By doing this, you modify flashlight and void warranty. If your flashlight has any problem, contact me befor you use grinder, hack saw or hammer.
Remember, KIU switch is NOT a stock switch. It's a MODIFIED stock switch.*


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## brighterisbetter (Nov 2, 2008)

-


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 3, 2008)

In keeping with the "Any comment welcome" note at end of sales thread...I'm trying to figure out in my own mind, the logic of cross-sectionally destroying a perfectly good Ellie-II to demonstrate a very tiny gap between having a dead short, vs. the good will & minimal expense (since Mac did them for free) of reducing diameter of battery holder caps to make this a non-issue.

Perhaps my Mag switch bottom center spring & cup pushed in further by battery holder top, but I am 100% sure that mine made metal on metal contact when stock mag switch was placed in stock Ellie-II with ridge. I was concerned about this when I saw the larger diameter design with Modamags and Eliie-II holder cap, and specifically checked it, knowing I may use a 12s setup with 250+ Watts. Mac verified this in his post #10.

I also was not thinking that adding a KIU to a stock Mag switch was specifically prohibited, since the holders are designed and promoted to hold 4s, 8s, or 12s x 4.2 Li-Ions--clearly putting this design beyond the safe use of a stock Mag switch. It is also known that AW's 150 watt limit of his multi-level soft-starting D-Driver would not be adequate for this much amp/volt/watt setup. There is now a much clearer statement in sales thread not to use KIU than before this thread was started which is a good thing.

Whoever is right is less of a concern to me than users erring on the side of safety, and addressing the problem a number have had in this thread. As far as I am concerned, Mac came out the winner in this thread, and I would still recommend that people use his services to get a smaller diameter battery holder top. I made the same statement in Modamag's Colossus thread for the same reason. Of course, people are free to do what they wish.

Safety first. I wish no ill will towards FiveMega, and these are just one man's opinions.


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## rolltide (Nov 4, 2008)

Brighterisbetter,
I have the same issue with my light even with the tops that Mac fixed for me. If I simply wiggle the battery adapter a bit, mine will drop into place. I think the plastic edge of the negative end of the battery carrier is just catching the lip at the end of the square tube. Like I said, with just a little wiggle to align the carrier with the tube correctly, mine slide right in. I find that when you tighten the battery carriers, sometimes they get a slight "twist" so that the square top and the square bottom are not perfectly aligned. Twisting the end slightly as you wiggle it may be required, but when the ends align, they drop in.

Hope that helps.

Roll Tide



brighterisbetter said:


> Here's more of what I mentioned earlier. I know they're a bit out of focus and not taken from the exact same position (I don't have a tripod), but they do show that one holder fits in the body further than the other.
> 
> Original Holder (came from Mac with light)
> 
> ...


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## rolltide (Nov 4, 2008)

One other little thing I just discovered about the FM battery holders. They are designed to use the AW Protected 18650 which is actually longer that 65mm. If you use Emoli's or any standard size 18650, the 4cell holder has enough thread to use the shorter batteries, but when you go to 8 cell, 12 cell, or 16 cell configurations, your FM holder will not work unless you use magnets or some other device to "stretch" the length of the 65mm batteries. I bought 40 Sony VT18650 batteries before I discovered this little known fact. The way FM designed the battery ends to be totally enclosed in the plastic spacers, adding the magnets should be safe with no risk of accidental shorts once the holders are securely tightened together.

Roll Tide


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## choppers (Nov 4, 2008)

rolltide said:


> One other little thing I just discovered about the FM battery holders. They are designed to use the AW Protected 18650 which is actually longer that 65mm. If you use Emoli's or any standard size 18650, the 4cell holder has enough thread to use the shorter batteries, but when you go to 8 cell, 12 cell, or 16 cell configurations, your FM holder will not work unless you use magnets or some other device to "stretch" the length of the 65mm batteries. I bought 40 Sony VT18650 batteries before I discovered this little known fact. The way FM designed the battery ends to be totally enclosed in the plastic spacers, adding the magnets should be safe with no risk of accidental shorts once the holders are securely tightened together.
> 
> Roll Tide


You are correct..I use 2 nylon washers at the top them swrewed on the brass cap...perfect fit...they were designed for AW 18650..they are a little longer due to being protective cells


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## proline (Jan 30, 2009)

What happened to some of the pictures that used to be here??

Couple of months too long??

Thanks...


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## Icarus (Jan 31, 2009)

choppers said:


> .... Instantly it burned my finger *and began to smell*. ...


 
Hi Tony, I was wondering, :thinking: was it your finger or the light? 
Sorry, but I couldn't resist.  :wave:


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## Icarus (Jan 31, 2009)

fivemega said:


> ... If your flashlight has any problem, contact me befor you use grinder, *hack saw* or *hammer*..*.*


 
:thanks: for posting a picture of the light that got some hack saw surgery... 
Are you also going to post pictures of a light tortured by a hammer.... :thinking: :lolsign:


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## mrQQ (Mar 2, 2009)

after some (not every pleasant) experiences with high wattage setups, I started examining my EleII, and noticed metal melting around the edges of the brass where switch lies. And that is _with_ AW soft start switch. Since this is choppers Ele, it might have happened in his original incident, but how can I be sure now.. Need to reduce the diameter of top plate.


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## [email protected] (Mar 11, 2015)

Hello,

Do you have a battery holder 3x18650-11.1V

Regards!!


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