# Combat course & E1E....



## Robocop (Nov 7, 2008)

I just finished my semi-annual firearms qualification course as required by the state to keep my Police License. Every few months the Dept. will require us to do the course in darkness and being a flashaholic this is my favorite course.

This last course was different than usual as we had various run and shoot courses with those metal flip targets. The course included 3 mandatory reloads and this all had to be done while holding your light. I used my main duty light for the standard part of the course as this is simply lining up on a target from various distances and firing. In between strings of fire you have time to reload and the pace is not too bad.

Well the combat courses are much harder I found as I had no lanyard on my main duty light. I had to tuck the light under my arm while reloading and it slowed me down. I switched to my back up light at the time which happened to be my E1E and Lumens Factory EO drop in. This was the only light I had which had a lanyard and made reloading much faster as I did not have to worry about my light.....I just let go of it and it was easy to retrieve.

Well the point of this long story is to say that that little light made me look very good. I finished the course in record time and hit all targets. Some of the targets were at 25 yards and about the size of a pie plate. That incandescent drop in really amazed me as it was plenty bright for the 25 yard sections and had just enough spill to scan for threats while the throw allowed me to see well past 25 yards......Just wanted to say that this little combo is a good choice for a one cell incandescent back-up. It was such a success that about 20 co-workers made me write the web site down and they are ordering the same drop ins. They even agreed to buy the E1E host from our local supplier just to get the same set up as I used.

Great little light to say the least and I never realized the value of a good lanyard until using it with such a small light on such a fast course.


----------



## light_emitting_dude (Nov 7, 2008)

Neat story robo. I carry a SL microstream as a back up. It would work well on a lanyard also. I will try that. 
We also have a low light shooting course when we re-qualify. Last year I used my L4 and not only illuminated my target but a few others also. :laughing: I think I will use my L1 next time.


----------



## Robocop (Nov 7, 2008)

I usually always carry my TW4 as a back up and for some reason decided to use the VG1 body and swap the head for the Lumens Factory 90 lumen drop in. I planned to try it out on a few courses that were not timed or scored just to see how it performed. I was really impressed with the power to size ratio and it really did have that "wow" factor to impress my co-workers.

I also tried out the 13 Volt set up in my Raider using three R123 cells and it was easy to notice me on the firing line when standing beside other officers.....man that thing is impressive to say the least.... I was a little nervous with that set up as it was the very same set up that failed on me last year. It was simply a blown bulb and has not happened since however I hesitate to use it on scored events.

It is things like this that bring new life into many lights I have not used in a while....I am ordering a few more drop ins today and plan to keep a few and give a few more to co-workers who failed the course tonight....:laughing:


----------



## SureAddicted (Nov 7, 2008)

Cool story Robocop. There are a couple video's out on low light shooting, and they emphasize on how important a lanyard is, especially when you have to reload. It does make life so much easier, I just need to get into the habit of using one more often.


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Nov 7, 2008)

Great stuff!! People will never understand why we love our E1e's with the LF lamp assemblies... You really need to use one to get it.


----------



## Illum (Nov 7, 2008)

interesting, they specifically require you to have a hand out for the light?
It seems reasonable to have a weaponlight on your weapon :thinking:

how did you go about lanyarding the E1e? I want to lanyard mine


----------



## Robocop (Nov 7, 2008)

The VG1 body I use on my EIE has a lanyard attatchment and allows me to use a small wrist lanyard.....I recommend the VG1 body as it is just a nice combo for the E1E.

I carry an H&K USP-40 and have done so for 11 years now. I bought the leather duty holster and night sights however never did wish to use a mounted weapon light back then....If I changed to that system now I would have to buy new leather anyway. I like using a seperate light source and always have at least two good lights on duty. I never use a laser sight for the same reason....I do not want to become dependant on the laser or mounted light should they fail.

Just last night I saw 2 officers using weapon mounted lights that failed. I agree weapon lights are awesome and used correctly offer a big advantage over handheld secondary lights but.....In the case of the 2 failures I saw both officers froze when their light went out. They had a duty light on their belt but did not go to it for some reason. It seemed both had became so used to the weapon light that when it failed they simply did not know what to do.


----------



## IcantC (Nov 7, 2008)

You bring up a very great point with the lanyard!


----------



## JNewell (Nov 7, 2008)

Great report. I've never run through courses and evals with anything smaller than a 6Z/C2 sized light. I would have thought it'd be hard to control/aim a 1x123 light - guess not? Thanks.


----------



## Hogokansatsukan (Nov 7, 2008)

Robocop said:


> Just last night I saw 2 officers using weapon mounted lights that failed. I agree weapon lights are awesome and used correctly offer a big advantage over handheld secondary lights but.....In the case of the 2 failures I saw both officers froze when their light went out. They had a duty light on their belt but did not go to it for some reason. It seemed both had became so used to the weapon light that when it failed they simply did not know what to do.


 
They need to train more. I've seen officers on the line stop when they have a weapon malfunction... and they don't clear it! They stand there thinking the stovepipe will fix itself if given enough time. Aaaaahhhhh!

I've used the E1E and E2E for combat shoots at night and they work great. I much prefer the smaller lights. Just ordered a Tomahalk LE that should arrive Monday, so I'm itching to try that one out.


----------



## Lightraven (Nov 8, 2008)

Better to have those weaponlights fail in training than real life. Maybe the officers will be a little less statue-like the next time it happens.

There are too many advantages with a weaponlight, though. I used mine a couple months ago at night--had to hold my handgun and a light, while calling in my position and situation (report of 2 armed bad guys running towards me while I had two more suspects on the ground). Without the X-300, one of those things would have had to be put away--and it sure as hell wasn't going to be my gun.

I keep my X-300 in my pocket and attach as needed. I detach before holstering.


----------



## light_emitting_dude (Nov 8, 2008)

Very good point. We must clear weapon malfunctions when qualifying. When you have done it enough times and have been trained, it becomes second nature amd will so in a real life situation. 





Hogokansatsukan said:


> They need to train more. I've seen officers on the line stop when they have a weapon malfunction... and they don't clear it! They stand there thinking the stovepipe will fix itself if given enough time. Aaaaahhhhh!
> 
> I've used the E1E and E2E for combat shoots at night and they work great. I much prefer the smaller lights. Just ordered a Tomahalk LE that should arrive Monday, so I'm itching to try that one out.


----------



## ampdude (Nov 8, 2008)

JNewell said:


> Great report. I've never run through courses and evals with anything smaller than a 6Z/C2 sized light. I would have thought it'd be hard to control/aim a 1x123 light - guess not? Thanks.



Me too. I think I would have a problem holding a 1x123 light under those conditions.


----------



## Solscud007 (Nov 9, 2008)

Interesting. Have a look at SF institute's youtube video. Lowlight Technic 2. 

It shows how to hold the light in the SF GRIP. the SF Combat grip rings REALLY help with mag changes and racking the weapon. But the rings dont fit e-series lights. 

The ringed combat light stays on your finger when you let go of the light, to use your hand. very nice for my airsoft uses and should work very well for real world scenarios.


----------



## ampdude (Nov 9, 2008)

I prefer a lanyard. That way I can just drop the light when I need to, but it stays within reach.


----------



## Lightraven (Nov 9, 2008)

That is good shooting, Robocop. Hitting plates at 25 yards isn't easy especially holding a flashlight.

Do you wrap a lanyard on your wrist in the field? Does it have a breakaway capability?

I've expressed my opinion on flashlight retention in another thread, but I'm interested in the opinions of other LEOs.


----------



## Robocop (Nov 10, 2008)

My main duty light (D36 Raider) does not have a lanyard attatchment so I rarely use a lanyard in the field. My back up light does have one and I really grew to like using it on that course. Our past night courses were all single strings of fire with time to reload so the fast paced combat course was new and fun.......reloading on the run with the light posed a different challenge with what to do with your light while reloading.

I saw guys holding it under their chin while others fumbled with their clips and dropped their lights while trying to reload. One officer stuck his in his pocket while reloading however it was turned on and this is a bad habit as it allows the bad guy to track your movement.....he just follows your light trail. I like the idea of a lanyard now and am trying to find a way to attatch one to my D36 Raider.

As far as the shooting goes I grew up in a country town and spent much time shooting at cans and bottles. I have never been a hunter really however I have always had a natural ability to shoot. I have also became very familiar with my old USP-40 and shooting it almost seems second nature by now.....plus in my opinion the old H&K is just an easy shooting very nice weapon to carry.

Now back to the topic.....I was really amazed at how well one can navigate a night course with such a small light. I do know more light is always better and believe me I was prepared with my heavy hitters but the little E1E came out on top this time. Good tactics and a little more juice from the 1 cell drop in made me feel really comfortable with the light emitted from this combo.


----------



## Sabre (Nov 10, 2008)

> interesting, they specifically require you to have a hand out for the light?
> It seems reasonable to have a weaponlight on your weapon


I'm not completely sold on the weapon-light idea. The biggest problem I have with it is that bad guys shoot at the light. Why would I want to put it in front of my face?

I use the old hand-to-the-side FBI technique with the light. This was cemented one day in simunitions training when I pied off a corner in a dark building and ran into one of our role-player bad guys. When I pied the corner I had squatted as low as I could and held the light (a Streamlight Scorpion) up as high as I could. We spotted each other at about the same time. He was about 5 feet from me. When he saw me he started shooting. He was shooting right at the light, with me squatting well beneath it. The light blinded him in the pitch-dark building, and he couldn't see me. I didn't get hit because I held the light away from my body. Had it been a weapon-light, he would have been shooting right at my head.


----------



## Robocop (Nov 10, 2008)

Personally I like the Harries grip as it allows me to most closely copy a 2 handed grip for more stability. My dept. has no restricitions on qualifying and light position and say use whatever works for you but stick with that style only. I have played with the Keller grip for flashlight shooting and it is actually very stable but just a variation of the Harries technique....and like I said I do not want to change now as I am used to the Harries.

I have became very good at pulsing my light or as we say it 'on in your face off in your face" which simply means you do not want to run around with your light on the entire time during a crisis situation. This allows the criminal to track you and I believe if done correctly a properly "pulsed" light is as safe as any other situation can be. If I am on target at night my light is on and once I decide to move the light goes off before I lower my weapon. If practiced regularly this becomes second nature and does work.

I agree practice and repitition are the key regardless of grip used or size of light. I say that however see many officers who simply freeze up and the fact is probably 70 percent of us do not get enough practice in. This is the biggest reason I believe simple is best and low light shooting is no different. I want a simple single stage bright light that requires zero fine motor skills to work. I was shocked that the E1E / LF combo was so easy to hold and use however it is simplicity at its best and it worked like a charm.

On a side not here I have sent an E-mail to LF as I did not see anywhere on their site to order the E1E drop in lamps. As of yet I have not heard back however it is still the weekend. I did not see anywhere to order anything actually and am wondering if anyone knows if something has changed with their site.....Do we have to use a different dealer now and if so where can I find some? I checked Wolf-Eyes however they do not show the smaller lamps and only have the D26 and D36 versions????

EDIT... Ok I have found some of the E0 E1E lamps at Light Hound and I would just as soon order from there as I have had good luck from there in the past. I may have been mistaken however if I remember right I could have sworn I ordered direct from LF last time.


----------



## Solscud007 (Nov 10, 2008)

Sabre said:


> I'm not completely sold on the weapon-light idea. The biggest problem I have with it is that bad guys shoot at the light. Why would I want to put it in front of my face?




Yes very true. However I believe Surefire Institute teaches you different holding techniques. The FBI Modified works well to keep the light away from you, however this is a searching method and does not allow a two handed grip of your weapon.

If trained properly there are single handed shooters who shoot better with one hand. There is a school of thought that it is better to learn to shoot with one hand for many different reasons. in this case, holding a flashlight. 

However SF institute teaches the idea that for the long threat, you would switch to harries or the rogers aka SF grip for the two handed stable platform for shooting while simultaneously lighting your opponent.

Robocop: when you say Pulsing your light do you mean that you just turn your light on and off at will? or strobing your light? I prefer the Gladius as the strobing adds a little more disorientation and the large tailcap button is very easy to press with my palm in the Rogers/SF grip.


----------



## imfrogman (Nov 10, 2008)

For the average citizen(non-leo) a weapon mounted light is probably the stupidest thing you could ever do. It violates the basic principle of gun safety. NEVER POINT A WEAPON AT SOMETHING YOU DO NOT INTEND TO SHOOT. I'm sure I can come up with 100's of scenerios 
to point this out.


----------



## Robocop (Nov 10, 2008)

I have never used a strobe function and for personal reasons do not believe I ever will. By pulsing I am saying that I will often turn my light off and on in between searching rooms or whatever I am doing at the time. This keeps my light on for brief seconds only and does not allow a target to get a fix on my position.

When I raise my weapon up on target I only activate my light once I have the weapon level and ready to fire. After firing I have learned to shut my light off before I drop my weapon so as not to "track" my movements. This allows any hostiles to only see my light when I am firing or ready to fire and as I move I am under cover of darkness.


----------



## signal 13 (Nov 10, 2008)

Illum_the_nation said:


> It seems reasonable to have a weaponlight on your weapon :thinking:


 
It sure does, but unfortunately some departments like mine, don't allow them. They seem to think that SWAT is the only unit that ever has a need for a weaponlight. Nothing can be further from the truth.


----------



## werdnawee (Nov 10, 2008)

Great story and a great set-up indeed.

Even though I use mine for the house and nightwalking instead of with a handgun.


----------



## Lightraven (Nov 10, 2008)

I remember clearly what is the worst low light training I ever got a few years ago.

I was on the firing line, alone, back to the range, with a range officer. He says, "Turn around and solve the problem." Close to me were two bad guys with guns, and a third bad guy holding a hostage. I shoot bad guys 1 and 2, then 3 in the head. Further downrange is another target in darkness. I kneel and "take cover" and observe. The range officer says, "OK, do you have a flashlight?" "No," I said. At the time, I didn't always bring flashlights to training because we rarely needed them. 

"So what are you going to do?"
"I'll just watch from cover and see what he does, see if he moves into light where I can see him clearly or if he shoots at someone."
"Are you going to challenge him?" 
"No, I think I'll just observe for now."
"OK. Holster your gun. Let's walk downrange." He shines his flashlight on the target and as we get closer, I see the target holding a badge. Off duty/plain clothes cop, probably. Then, I start seeing bulletholes in the cop. Lots of 'em. Wow, I thought, our guys really screwed up.

During the debriefing, the range officer says, "Everybody did well on that last scenario. . .except you (nodding to me). You didn't shoot the last target. I know you forgot your flashlight, but you need to do something. Even though everybody else had flashlights, they either didn't see the badge or couldn't tell what it was or something, so everybody shot him. Good job, everyone (not sarcastic)." 

Wait, I don't shoot the cop, and I messed up? I was dumbfounded--I literally could not speak I was so amazed. I know, I should have a flashlight, but that wasn't what he was saying. Officers were being told to shoot someone they couldn't identify as a deadly force threat!

It brought home how important a super-bright flashlight is (because dirt, debris, water vapor and smoke may make the air cloudy) and how bad training can be worse than no training. I don't have 20/20 vision either, but that won't be much of an excuse for shooting an innocent.


----------



## SureAddicted (Nov 11, 2008)

signal 13 said:


> It sure does, but unfortunately some departments like mine, don't allow them. They seem to think that SWAT is the only unit that ever has a need for a weaponlight. Nothing can be further from the truth.



+1
Having a weaponlight can sometimes be a disadvantage, perps shooting at the light source isnt optimal for the user, and I have seen a lot of officer's keep the weaponlight on for extended periods. For training it's ok, but not in the real world. Ofcouse, this doesn't apply for all situations/applications.


----------



## one417 (Nov 16, 2008)

Surefire Institute's Low-Light combat courses are great. They do offer plenty of optional holds as well as pros and cons. I find myself using certain techniques as my default during combat stress scenarios. We teach users in my agency to use a handheld as a primary light for searching. But I have to say that sor our LCD's (lowest common denominators ), a weapon mounted light along with a two handed shooting grip serves them better in combat shooting drills. During our low-light quals, we have our students shoot with different techniques as a warmup then use the handheld technique of their preference during the qual. We also have them shoot with their weapon lights as well as laser sights as part of the low-light training. As far as I'm concerned, the low-light technique that one pratices with is the one that will ultimately work for them in combat......Pratic, practice, practice.


----------



## B'hamFAL (Nov 22, 2008)

Robocop said:


> .... Our past night courses were all single strings of fire with time to reload so the fast paced combat course was new and fun........


 
By far the best trip to the range I've had if you don't count rifle qualifications. And I say that even though I managed my worst score ever on one course. Shoot even the shotgun stage was good this time. We should be out there at least once a quarter for this stuff.

My 9p doesn't have a lanyard at the moment either. I just dropped it back in its' baton holder as usual instead of fumbling with it somewhere else. The light is the 2nd most used tool on my belt and I've even developed some muscle memory as far as deploying and storing it. Radio is first if anyone was wondering.


----------



## Mdinana (Nov 22, 2008)

Just an anecdotal story about "training like you fight." Probably 10+ years ago now, there was a CHP (California Highway Patrol) officer that got involved in a gun battle on a traffic stop. He was eventually found dead, where the stop was, with several bullet casings in his pocket, and an empty pistol.

Seems that normal training is that the CHP officers police up their brass. When he emptied his magazine, he habitually started picking up used brass, instead of reloading and continuing to address the perp. While cleaning up, the perp came over and shot him.

Anyway, back on topic... I never considered an E-series for a weapon course, but it's small size makes holding it potentially easier - interesting thought. I'll keep it in the back of my mind if I ever need to get qualified in real life!


----------



## Robocop (Nov 22, 2008)

I do like the night fire best and wish they would use many more of the running combt courses. I have a new found respect for the little lanyard and will try to find a way to attatch one to my D36 Raider now.


----------



## one417 (Nov 22, 2008)

Mdinana said:


> Just an anecdotal story about "training like you fight." Probably 10+ years ago now, there was a CHP (California Highway Patrol) officer that got involved in a gun battle on a traffic stop. He was eventually found dead, where the stop was, with several bullet casings in his pocket, and an empty pistol.
> 
> Seems that normal training is that the CHP officers police up their brass. When he emptied his magazine, he habitually started picking up used brass, instead of reloading and continuing to address the perp. While cleaning up, the perp came over and shot him.



The unfortunate scenario actually happened in 1970. Four CHP officers were killed during a shootout in Newhall, Ca. It was later found that the victim officers had expended casings in their pockets. Apparently, during the CHP's firearms training (at that time), the officers reloaded their revolvers by emptying the cylinders and placing the expended casings in their pockets before doing re-loads. This practice (many feel) was one that may had contributed to the officers losing the fight. 

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/05/local/me-chp5


----------



## Lightraven (Nov 22, 2008)

It has been widely reported on the "brass in pocket" of one of the dead officers. I've also read that is a myth of the fight, but the point is no myth, by a long shot: People under high stress tend to follow their instincts or their habits, whichever dominates.

During some more recent dynamic training (i.e. run and gun), I and others have bent down to pick up empty mags. Why? Because in most of my instructed training, mags are recovered before moving to a new position during typical shooting drills ("Now grab anything you dropped and move back to the 15 yard line.") So, I got scolded for it, yeah, yeah, yeah, but who's training me (in effect) to do that? The instructor.

Training is more realistic than 1970, but it still has a long, long way to go.


----------



## Robocop (Nov 23, 2008)

I honestly believe that repitition has much more to do with tactics than actual training. You can train a few times per year and believe me most people forget the training within the first few hours of finishing the class.....do something over and over again and it pretty much stays with you.

I saw a video of an actual police shooting where the officer was a highly trained veteran officer with 18 years of experience. He was also a competitive shooter with hundreds of wins to his name....so he could obviously shoot very well.

The problem was he spent so much time shooting competition courses it became second nature for him to shoot as if in competition. Many of the standard courses fired will be draw from the holster and fire 2 rounds then back to holster....draw again and fire two rounds....so on and so on.

The video showed this officer taking serious fire from a close range and he would fire two rounds and then holster his weapon....he would then draw again and fire two rounds each time and back to holster. He was actually shot twice and each time his weapon was holstered. He did survive and managed to kill the bad guy however he was hurt bad enough he had to retire.

My point is that in spite of all his training classes he actually used none of the special training....he did what he did most and that was draw...fire two rounds....back to holster. When later asked what he was thinking he replied I was not thinking....he said he did not remember any of it and it was simply instinct and repitition and not training he fell back on when under fire.

True story and an amazing video to watch....it was so shocking to see him getting shot and actually holstering his weapon up. Most people do not actually know what a true stress situation is. Sure you can have noise and distractions on the firing line when qualification comes around but this is nothing compared to a true survival situation.

Believe me when I saw fine motor skills are gone....period they are gone and no one can say otherwise. I know many will say train,train,train and you can remedy tunnel vision and stress reactions. Well you may can make them less of a problem but you will never totally remove them....again I am talking in a true under fire situation and not a simple high risk entry or felony stop but a bad guy throwing lead your way in a darkened alley type scenario.

Your hands go to mush....time really does slow to a crawl....yes it does feel like you are running in mud...and you do lose alot of your peripherial vision to focus more on the threat. It is not everyday I learn something however this type scenario and this thread about the E1E and lanyard has taught me something.....as what I thought myself to be an experienced officer I never had an idea a lanyard could be so important....holy smoke was I wrong about that and this is why I am trying to find a way to get my Raider up to speed with a lanyard.


----------



## B'hamFAL (Nov 23, 2008)

Makes you appreciate why they tell you to scan for other threats before dropping your weapon to the ready or reholstering.

Keep in mind with a lanard if your hand isn't already in it before it starts you're gonna have a hell of a time getting your hand in there under stress. I think I'll still get a lanyard ring for my 9p anyway.


----------



## Lightraven (Nov 23, 2008)

What about running a lanyard or length of coiled cord like telephone cord to an epaulet, belt, vest or some other part of the uniform, rather than your wrist?


----------



## rph (Nov 23, 2008)

I wouldn't do that. With any reasonably sized lanyard, this would limit mobility too much. A longer lanyard would increase the FU potential due to tangles or choking hazard.

At night, if I'm not driving (and I'm a trainer, so the probie is usually driving) the Surefire Aviator is usually hanging from my left wrist by a lanyard. When it's not there, it's in my back pocket.

I use the Aviator for initial contacts, given the two stages of light from the push button. A Fenix 2xAA is the backup/search light, for the cheaper batteries and increased flexibility. The Fenix is just too much work for the fast adjustment I need in initial contacts, though it's perfect for the detail work.

I was glad to see this thread. I've heard crap from the "pretty police" for a long time about lanyards and multiple lights. When you try to explain it to them, they don't listen. I stopped trying a while back. A good lanyard, with the right light, can make all the difference in the world in ugly situations.

So far as speed in securing the lanyard...I wouldn't worry about the lanyard if speed was the issue...

Of course, habits work in both directions. A few months back, facing a suicidal stalker, he was in the car, with the probie parked in the perfect position to take fire, and reported to have a gun. He refused to comply with orders, reached into the center console, and things started to move fast. Facing two pistols, with no chance to hit both (the probie chose poorly and was in a good line of fire...I'd moved further to the rear of his car and had both a good shooting angle and some cover), he gave up. He came out empty-handed and I took him down with the probie covering. Forgetting that I hadn't taken time to slip my wrist through the lanyard, I let go of the light and it landed by his head. 

"Uhh...nice light..."
"Thanks, Chief...you're under arrest..."

The probie got a laugh...right before the "you almost got shot" speech...

If it's on, I use it. If it's not and I have time, I put it on. If I don't have time, I try to handle the immediate threat (and then drop my light by his head, apparently)...


----------



## Sabre (Nov 24, 2008)

Mdinana said:


> Just an anecdotal story about "training like you fight." Probably 10+ years ago now, there was a CHP (California Highway Patrol) officer that got involved in a gun battle on a traffic stop. He was eventually found dead, where the stop was, with several bullet casings in his pocket, and an empty pistol.
> 
> Seems that normal training is that the CHP officers police up their brass. When he emptied his magazine, he habitually started picking up used brass, instead of reloading and continuing to address the perp. While cleaning up, the perp came over and shot him.
> 
> Anyway, back on topic... I never considered an E-series for a weapon course, but it's small size makes holding it potentially easier - interesting thought. I'll keep it in the back of my mind if I ever need to get qualified in real life!



Sounds like you're talking about the "Newhall incident"

A synopsis from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Highway_Patrol#Newhall_Incident


----------



## T3hk1w1 (Nov 25, 2008)

Ya, our CH instructor told my class about that incident as a reason to drop your mags when reloading at the range. Keeping this on-topic, I'd never really thought about the need to hold onto a light while reloading. Makes me rethink my nightstand setup...


----------



## Robocop (Nov 25, 2008)

We have 3 shifts in my department with days being 7am-3pm, evening shift of 3pm-11pm, and nights being 11pm-7am.....so in other words we have 2/3 of the entire department spending most of their shift in the dark. With the time change and winter months it gets dark faster and almost all of my shift is in the dark.

I also have never really thought of how important low light tactics are and am shocked at how little my department offers in the form of training for low light shooting. As a flashaholic I was already pretty up to speed on various lights and naturally able to shoot well at night....however I saw several co-workers who not only had crappy lights but more so did not know how to shoot properly under low light conditions.

Even though I have worked 3-11pm for 11 years now I never really thought about most of my shift is in the dark. The cool part is that I always have the better lights of any in a group and have taken it for granted many times. It is really sad to see so many co-workers using poor lights for duty.

I recently had a rookie in training and his first day he arrived on duty he showed me his light. He seemed so proud that he had a "fancy LED" as he called it. It was an LED allright however it was one of those 3-AAA versions with the multi 5mm LEDs in the bezel. It threw a beam maybe 10 feety at best and in a combat situation would be simply useless.....and the sad part is he actually thought this was top of the line in equipment.

He is one of many with horrible equipment but more so one of many with the mind set that a light is not really that important....


----------



## isc (Nov 25, 2008)

I undertook semi automatic 'control security risk using firearm' (read: shoot to stop the offence) training about 10 months ago. Several components needed to be done in low light. 

While I did manage to do it sans flashlight, I'm now thinking my SFs should've gotten a work out... and this is an excellent post. Until now, I hadn't really considered the logistics of dropping a Glock mag, whacking that mag home and racking the slide with a 6P in hand.


----------



## KeeperSD (Nov 25, 2008)

Good thread Robocop, one thing that i wish we would do more of (actually any would be good). 



Robocop said:


> and this is why I am trying to find a way to get my Raider up to speed with a lanyard.


Not sure how good you are with paracord, but this knot works very well for attaching a lanyard to lights 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constrictor_knot

Or maybe you could try and look at some of the new tail caps that Wolf Eyes are making with lanyard holes. Not sure if they are making them for the Raider though.


----------



## Robocop (Nov 25, 2008)

Keeper thanks for the links and I will surely look into the new tail caps. I had no idea Wolf-Eyes was offering a new design with a lanyard. 

I did try the constrictor knot as I found some photos from an old thread on a search. In theory it works pretty well however I was having trouble finding a way to actually carry it on my duty belt. The wrap and knot made it unable to fit my holster.

As of now the only way I can imagine attatching a lanyard would be to the bezel end as my light rides bezel up in my duty holster I actually have a light made by Peak (1st Responder) with a lanyard attatched to the bezel rather than the tailcap area. I actually like it better for some reason and it is very easy to "flip" the light up into your hand using the bezel attatchment....much more so than my other tailcap attached lanyards.


----------



## Mercaptan (Nov 25, 2008)

imfrogman said:


> For the average citizen(non-leo) a weapon mounted light is probably the stupidest thing you could ever do. It violates the basic principle of gun safety. NEVER POINT A WEAPON AT SOMETHING YOU DO NOT INTEND TO SHOOT. I'm sure I can come up with 100's of scenerios
> to point this out.




I respect your opinion, but my two home defense weapons humbly disagree.

You are violating one of the four firearms rules of safety, being "never point a weapon at a target unless you see fit to destroy it" - you are treating it as if it is loaded, yes, and you are keeping your finger off the trigger. But, truth be told, if I am willing to shine a light on something in my home for defense, I better be able to counter and respond to the threat just as quickly and appropriately. Hence, weapon-light.

To truly assess the foreground and the background of the target, you need to inherently point the weapon co-witnessed with the light. I don't know about you, but I'm not man enough to hold a 12 gauge one-handed and a light in the other while firing, let alone working the action.

I also sure as hell cannot perform a tactical reload with a handheld-light in one hand easily (takes two-three times the amount of effort, coordination and time). That being said, this is also with a handgun. With a rifle, it only gets harder, especially based on where your gear is strung. Certainly, a lanyard in this situation would be most helpful.

Anyway, I enjoy my weapon-lights. Make me feel all warm and cozy.

To Robocop, what weapon-mounted lights did you see fail, and do you know of any reason for their failure?


----------



## Robocop (Nov 25, 2008)

Mercaptan I am not sure however I believe one of my co-workers was using a weapon light made by Insight Technology that suffered a lamp failure while the other was using a TLR-2 I believe.

The second of the two was a battery problem I believe as his light did not shut off quickly it just went dim within a pretty quick time....it was however right in the middle of his qualification and he froze.

I am not against weapon mounted lights as they are surely a proven design and used correctly offer a great advantage. The problem I see is that officers become lazy and rely only on their weapon light. I see many officers using their weapon light for routine searches of cars or other trivial stuff that you should use your main light for. The problem here is exactly what happened to my co-worker with the failure on the line. He used his weapon light for everything and when he needed it the most it was almost spent.

He did carry a Stinger as a main duty light and was given a chance to use it on a second attempt. Yes you guessed it he had not used his Stinger for so long it was also almost spent and he had to borrow a light from another officer. He had grown lazy and used to his weapon light and in a real life situation this could easily get him killed.

I believe most of my problem is that I do not like change and have been trained for 11 years without a weapon mounted light. I simply believe for myself I do better without one as it is one less thing to worry about failing.


----------



## KeeperSD (Nov 25, 2008)

Robocop said:


> Keeper thanks for the links and I will surely look into the new tail caps. I had no idea Wolf-Eyes was offering a new design with a lanyard.
> 
> I did try the constrictor knot as I found some photos from an old thread on a search. In theory it works pretty well however I was having trouble finding a way to actually carry it on my duty belt. The wrap and knot made it unable to fit my holster.


I have only seen the lanyard tail caps available on the P7 Sniper or the Fox http://www.wolf-eyes.com/product/Fox-I%20detail.html not sure if they offer or it would work on the Raider. 

In relation to the constrictor knot, perhaps try taking the inner strands out of the paracord, makes it sit nice and flat when the knots are tied and you really shouldn't need to extra strength that it adds to hold the light. Should fit into your holster then.


----------



## Mercaptan (Nov 25, 2008)

Robocop said:


> Mercaptan I am not sure however I believe one of my co-workers was using a weapon light made by Insight Technology that suffered a lamp failure while the other was using a TLR-2 I believe.
> 
> The second of the two was a battery problem I believe as his light did not shut off quickly it just went dim within a pretty quick time....it was however right in the middle of his qualification and he froze.



Cool, I love getting more information about reliability issues. I cannot believe any patrol officer would have a weaponlight without a backup hand-held. That just seems silly. 

Some firearms instructors even have two (or more!) lights mounted to their carbines (backups for backups, even). 

Thanks for your service, and stay safe out there!


----------



## foxtrot29 (Dec 2, 2008)

Lightraven said:


> I remember clearly what is the worst low light training I ever got a few years ago.
> 
> I was on the firing line, alone, back to the range, with a range officer. He says, "Turn around and solve the problem." Close to me were two bad guys with guns, and a third bad guy holding a hostage. I shoot bad guys 1 and 2, then 3 in the head. Further downrange is another target in darkness. I kneel and "take cover" and observe. The range officer says, "OK, do you have a flashlight?" "No," I said. At the time, I didn't always bring flashlights to training because we rarely needed them.
> 
> ...



"they either didn't see the badge or COULDN'T TELL WHAT IT WAS OR SOMETHING, SO EVERYBODY SHOT HIM. GOOD JOB..."

Am I to understand that he was praising everyone for shooting at a target that was not identified as ANYTHING before hand? I don't know what the scenario was exactly, but part of my training was to always identify a threat before shooting at it. And not "well, i wasn't sure so I blasted away".

Wow.


----------



## foxtrot29 (Dec 2, 2008)

Mercaptan said:


> I respect your opinion, but my two home defense weapons humbly disagree.
> 
> You are violating one of the four firearms rules of safety, being "never point a weapon at a target unless you see fit to destroy it" - you are treating it as if it is loaded, yes, and you are keeping your finger off the trigger. But, truth be told, if I am willing to shine a light on something in my home for defense, I better be able to counter and respond to the threat just as quickly and appropriately. Hence, weapon-light.
> 
> ...



Agreed. I can't remember what the acronym for this is anymore, but there is some series of phrases we learned that goes something like this:

Finger on trigger, on target -- intent to shoot.
Finger off trigger, on target -- intent to cover.
Finger off trigger, off target -- assess.


----------



## Lightraven (Dec 2, 2008)

Foxtrot29,

I think you understand what happened as much as I do. It made no sense to hang a cop target in the dark (4th in a logical sequence of closest most obvious threats to furthest, least obvious threat) then tell everybody they were right to shoot it because. . .I don't know. I'm sure guys honestly didn't see the badge in their light beams with all the gunsmoke at 10-15 yards, but so what? If you can't see the badge, the gun isn't visible, either. 

Better instructors--which is to say, very experienced tactical officers both in their own shootings and in court for others'--have said as much. It's not that he doesn't expect officers to make mistakes--but he surely doesn't train them to make mistakes. "Be sure of your target and background." 

I'm still a little perplexed that anyone could say something so opposite of what you're supposed to be learning.

Two weeks ago, we shot something similar but not in the dark. This time, the targets were covered and quickly pulled towards us on a pulley. When they got close, the cover pulled away to reveal--a bad guy with a gun or knife, a fellow officer, or a guy with a cell phone. 

I didn't shoot the cop or the cell phone dude, of course--but a lot of my coworkers did. Lots of bulletholes, right through the guy with a big Police ID panel on his chest in bold letters. I actually watched one of my coworkers shoot everything that moved--the fellow officer, the cell phone guy, the bad guy. The range officers asked, "Why did you shoot this guy?" "Uh, I guess I messed up." I guess so. Talking to another officer, he asked if I shot the cop. "No," I said, "but I do a lot of training to hold fire until I'm sure of what I'm shooting at. Games, live fire, simulations. I've spent a lot of time doing this stuff."

That training isn't fun and games--I was in a real shooting, at night, in October.


----------



## foxtrot29 (Dec 2, 2008)

Lightraven said:


> Foxtrot29,
> 
> I think you understand what happened as much as I do. It made no sense to hang a cop target in the dark (4th in a logical sequence of closest most obvious threats to furthest, least obvious threat) then tell everybody they were right to shoot it because. . .I don't know. I'm sure guys honestly didn't see the badge in their light beams with all the gunsmoke at 10-15 yards, but so what? If you can't see the badge, the gun isn't visible, either.
> 
> ...



Yeah, at least that is how I was trained. I mean, if you shot the guy with the cell phone or police id, and were able to honestly articulate as to why you did so that is something else. But for the instructor to say the target should have been shot at because no one was sure what it was is just wrong. I don't care what the reasoning is.


----------

