# What the heck is a smoke cutting light?



## get-lit (Aug 1, 2010)

A friend says firemen use special smoke cutting lights, but he doesn't have any idea what makes them different. Anyone here know?


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## Burgess (Aug 1, 2010)

A very *Tightly-Focused Spot*.


Helps to reduce the back-scatter -- that is, light reflected BACK to you,
by the smoke particles.


Don't expect Miracles, however.


:candle:


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## jellydonut (Aug 1, 2010)

Google reveals;



> Unlike most lights, the UK4AA eLED Fire Light utilizes the company's patent-pending Projection Optical System, which generates a narrow smoke-cutting beam. This ensures there are no whiteouts, flarebacks, or reflective sidelights -- a critical benefit in smoke-filled environments.


http://flashlightnews.org/story76.shtml

Apparently it's just a fancy way for a flashlight company to say they have a narrow beam thrower.


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## jcw122 (Aug 1, 2010)

I imagine it would be a very, very warm light too.


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## get-lit (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks, those were my guesses.


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## jacktheclipper (Aug 2, 2010)

jcw122 said:


> I imagine it would be a very, very warm light too.


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## victory (Aug 2, 2010)

Many of the guys i know who have even bothered to update to something remotely modern have a polymer streamlight LED attached to their helmet and vulcans are on the trucks. Nothing spectacularly bright or high tech, just what is needed to get the job done.

For the longest time the most popular light was a cheap, disposable angled head incan wedged under a piece of inner tube stretched around the helmet.


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## PayBack (Aug 2, 2010)

Burgess said:


> A very *Tightly-Focused Spot*.
> 
> 
> Helps to reduce the back-scatter -- that is, light reflected BACK to you,
> ...



So a Tiablo A8 would fit the bill...


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2010)

PayBack said:


> So a Tiablo A8 would fit the bill...



In performance perhaps (just like any decent thrower) but it wouldn't be used due to it's power source, all the lights I see utilized are using "traditional" cells from Alkaline to NIMH (for obvious reasons ) :thumbsup:


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## Pekka (Aug 2, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> In performance perhaps (just like any decent thrower) but it wouldn't be used due to it's power source, all the lights I see utilized are using "traditional" cells from Alkaline to NIMH (for obvious reasons ) :thumbsup:


No, not really.


The smoke cutting lights (and also dive lights) as I see it, are generally not only built for really tight throw but also for minimal spill: recoil leds and TIR optics are tech you might see here. Also, they're real PITA to use in general duty because of those properties.


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## [email protected] (Aug 3, 2010)

Pekka said:


> No, not really.



The question I was answering related to the use of a Li-Ion cell (Namely the 18650) for SAR applications lithium lights would be excellent however entering fires zones with massive radiant heat (and the potential for flashovers & backdrafts) the last thing you'd want to worry about is whether the Lithium-Ion cell is going to go 

I also added the qualifier that the fire fighting personnel I regularly come into contact with are only using a multitude of Alk~NIMH powered lights (primarily Streamlight) YMMV :thumbsup:


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## csshih (Aug 3, 2010)

amber leds?


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## RWT1405 (Aug 3, 2010)

Thought, at first, that this was a thread about the old Smoke Cutter flashlights from L.A. Screw Products . I bought mine in 1982 and used it for years with my fire gear. 

My .02 FWIW YMMV


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## Chadder (Aug 3, 2010)

I had a buddy of mine, who was a fireman, refuse to convert over to LED's because of smoke cutting. Someone came to the fire department and told them that LED's can not cut through smoke like incans. I tried to explain that it was not incan vs LED but how the beam was focused, but he would not believe me. About a year later the same guy was talking about his new LED lights that he got at the fire department. Come to find out his expert was a salesman from a fire product company. I think the unaware consumer gets sold a bunch of bs so they pay more for the light!! Just my .02


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## 65535 (Aug 3, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> The question I was answering related to the use of a Li-Ion cell (Namely the 18650) for SAR applications lithium lights would be excellent however entering fires zones with massive radiant heat (and the potential for flashovers & backdrafts) the last thing you'd want to worry about is whether the Lithium-Ion cell is going to go
> 
> I also added the qualifier that the fire fighting personnel I regularly come into contact with are only using a multitude of Alk~NIMH powered lights (primarily Streamlight) YMMV :thumbsup:



Lithium batteries can handle sustained temps over 140F (and perform quite well at that temp) humans can't I doubt it'll really be an issue, if the cell gets hot enough to be dangerous the person using it was already dead.


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## alpg88 (Aug 3, 2010)

Pekka said:


> No, not really.
> 
> 
> The smoke cutting lights (and also dive lights) as I see it, are generally not only built for really tight throw but also for minimal spill: recoil leds and TIR optics are tech you might see here. Also, they're real PITA to use in general duty because of those properties.


 
sounds like GE 4515 would be perfect bulb for it.


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## alpg88 (Aug 3, 2010)

65535 said:


> Lithium batteries can handle sustained temps over 140F (and perform quite well at that temp) humans can't I doubt it'll really be an issue, if the cell gets hot enough to be dangerous the person using it was already dead.


actually humans can, (ever been to dry sauna??) sure you don't wanna be there for hours.
firemen with protective gear on, can ,for a short time, enter rooms that are a hotter than 140f. and survive.


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## PayBack (Aug 3, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> In performance perhaps (just like any decent thrower) but it wouldn't be used due to it's power source, all the lights I see utilized are using "traditional" cells from Alkaline to NIMH (for obvious reasons ) :thumbsup:



They would when it comes to the term "smoke cutting" thought. That's pretty much battery independant.


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 3, 2010)

Regarding Lithium Ion cells goingin a hot enviornment, no battery likes heat though primary Lithium cells handle it better. Most firemen are using plastic body lights and plastic will isolate the cells from the external heat and the flashlight body will be melting before the cells are compromised. I think that using Alkaline, and NiMh, or NiCd cells is more of a traditional thing, and firemen have not yet moved to Li-Ion cells. Look how long it took them to move to LED lights. God bless Streamlight for helping them move there. :thumbsup:

Bill


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## Hamilton Felix (Aug 3, 2010)

I don't believe for a moment that there's any such thing as a light that "cuts through" smoke or fog. 

A tight beam, with hemispherical filament shielding in a typical sealed beam, so there's no light scatter outside the beam, would help on light bouncing back at you, but NOTHING will magically cut through particles in the air. 

Fog lights try to get under the fog, using a low mounted light with no upward scatter. But they don't "cut through" anything. 

Get a tightly focused light, and live with the fact it's not magical.


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## Burgess (Aug 3, 2010)

Yep !


Kinda' what that wise and profound fellow wrote, back in post # 2.



_


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## [email protected] (Aug 3, 2010)

Yes Burgess you did :thumbsup:


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## victory (Aug 3, 2010)

alpg88 said:


> actually humans can, (ever been to dry sauna??) sure you don't wanna be there for hours.
> firemen with protective gear on, can ,for a short time, enter rooms that are a hotter than 140f. and survive.


 
With full PPE, you can get into rooms quite a bit hotter than that. Also, the light is mounted on the helmet, which is higher up on your body and therefore taking even more heat. I've seen melted flashlights. Moreso the cheap disposables than the streamlights which use a more thermally stable plastic.

If you guys are interested in seeing some standard firefighting lights, I'm at work right now so I can see if i can snap a few pictures with my cell phone and upload them.


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## [email protected] (Aug 3, 2010)

victory said:


> If you guys are interested in seeing some standard firefighting lights, I'm at work right now so I can see if i can snap a few pictures with my cell phone and upload them.



That would be great! :thumbsup:


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## [email protected] (Aug 3, 2010)

65535 said:


> Lithium batteries can handle sustained temps over 140F (and perform quite well at that temp) humans can't I doubt it'll really be an issue



With their protective outer layers briefly encountering such high temperatures would be plausible, perhaps I'm reading too much into this after all Lithium-Ion packs are used for almost all 2-way comm's gear these days, what concerns me is reading all the posts concerning Lithium cell failure with users accidentally mismatching cells & straight out venting, thus traditional cells still offer a higher degree of safety with a non-existent learning curve, TBH I'm not fully aware of the actual temperature Lithium-Ion cells become an issue quality/age would have to be determining factors but I never want to be the one to find out IRL


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## victory (Aug 4, 2010)

Standard disposable Garrity incan. strapped with a section of innertube. This is pretty standard. Terrible beam quality by forum standards and not very bright, but if you melt or break it, you're out $3






LED streamlight 4AA. Streamlight sells it's own band for their fire service flashlights to secure to your helmet. This is about as modern as it gets. Some of the newer ones might use Streamlight's C4 (Cree or similar) LED, this on is probably a Luxeon. Deep reflector gives a tight beam without much spill.






Angled head Streamlight Incan. Clips to the radio pocket on the front of your turnout gear.






Streamlight Vulcan. Incan with a very tight, focused beam. Some models have a pair of standard LEDs on the back, no so much for lighting anything but so it's easier to follow the person infront of you.

That's pretty much all you see around the firehouse other than the rechargable Stingers on the ambulance


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2010)

Thanks victory! :thumbsup:


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## Hamilton Felix (Aug 4, 2010)

Marduke pointed out to me that yellow wavelengths have some advantage in getting through smoke and dust. I wouldn't expect magic, but I do seem to see a bit better clarity or contrast when I use yellow fog lights. 

At the risk of reopening the endless argument of white vs yellow fogs, it would be fun to experiment with yellow lights in smoke, compare to whiter lights. The trick would be maintaining the same level of smoke during the comparison. Back in my VFD days, we were super low budget and used smoke bombs. If someone has one of those smoke generators for training, such a comparison might be feasible. 

Smoke is actually solid, opaque particles in the air, where fog is microscopic, refractive water droplets. The behavior would be different. 

"Inquiring minds want to know."


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## alpg88 (Aug 4, 2010)

Hamilton Felix said:


> Marduke pointed out to me that yellow wavelengths have some advantage in getting through smoke and dust. I wouldn't expect magic, but I do seem to see a bit better clarity or contrast when I use yellow fog lights.


there is something to it, i have yellow glasses for driving, even at night it shows things clearer and more contrast, even looks like it is more ambient light.

ping pong balls and tightly wound newspaper make very nice smoker, just have both lights in your hands and test. you also have a point about difference between fog or smoke, also few occasions i watched firefighters extinguish flames, i noticed, once they start pumping water, they get steam mixed with smoke


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## Foxfyre (Aug 4, 2010)

My old Mercury had those irritatingly yellow fog lights on the front. 

They really seemed to help on foggy mountain night trips.

They were also tight beamed and aimed down on the road close ahead. I can agree with a tight beam causing less backscatter and suspect the yellow somehow helped.

Now you have me looking through my lenses and hunting for yellow filters to break out with my flashlights on the next foggy night.:naughty:

Now, how to measure the difference in what may just be my perception?


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## victory (Aug 5, 2010)

As a note on heat resistance for the lights, I looked it up and the NFPA requires 30min at 500*F


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## PayBack (Aug 5, 2010)

Where's delete message?


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## PhillyRube (Aug 5, 2010)

There was a spotlight marketed a few years back that had a translucent paint applied to the lens, around the outside of the lens and a spot in the middle, supposed to cut fog and smoke. One of our ambulances has one on the portable spotlight that gets kicked around under the seat.


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## victory (Aug 5, 2010)

PhillyRube said:


> There was a spotlight marketed a few years back that had a translucent paint applied to the lens, around the outside of the lens and a spot in the middle, supposed to cut fog and smoke. One of our ambulances has one on the portable spotlight that gets kicked around under the seat.



Yeah, we had one of those on our ambulances ...i'm not sure if they're even still there is how little I ever used it. What do we use it for anyway? Finding addresses? My personal light, the stingers on the console or the scene lights on the box seem to work just fine for that anyway.

Well, at least we're not the only company who purchased one...though this is the internet and we're both around Philly, so for all I know we could work together. We'll probably find out on some dark scene where everyone is trying to spot the car in the woods with their vastly inferior lighting tools.


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## biffa (Oct 1, 2010)

anyone else have a yellow filter ?? my old station officer swore by them but that was in the days of a clunky D cell and standard filament bulb?


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## lawson4450 (Oct 2, 2010)

I use the vulcan led light as well as the stream light survivor light led and i also have on my helmet the foxfury 20 led helmet light that lights up the fireground. i love my led lights.


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