# Why all the headlamps output are so low?



## NickBose (Aug 22, 2008)

What's wrong with all the headlamps? While for handheld lights we are talking about 200+ lumens (not counting the SSC P7 lights here) I struggled to find a headlamp with output > 100 lumens.

Is the Energizer e2 the only one that can spits 140 lumens (only in burst mode of 30 seconds I think)? - forget exotic beast like Scurion, I'm not that rich.

I'm using a Zebralight H30-Q5 and while I'm quite happy with it, the output of 80 lumens for a Q5 LED is something I can't understand.

No, I can never understand. Somebody tell me: is it really that hard to get the head of something like this and stick it onto an elastic band with a battery holder somewhere and not selling at a ridiculous price? :thinking:


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## Illum (Aug 22, 2008)

Heat is the primary concern [if you ever tried to wear a solder gun on your ear you'd understand the nervousness], and heat has a direct relationship with output. In addition, field lighting requires very little especually in total darkness and runtime is often more important than output in these cases. 


I wouldn't say ALL headlamps as there are HID headlamps around.

EDIT:


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## hopkins (Aug 22, 2008)

The Petzl Ultra headlamp claims to give 350 lumens but its very expensive. link:
http://flashlightnews.org/story1192.shtml

Don't know why Fenix or Surefire has not made a headlamp version. Would seem
simple. I can imagine a combo flashlight kit that comes with a headband to convert the flashlight into a headlamp. The tube would become a remote battery
pack, wires going up to the headlamp. Just have to unscrew the head from the
tube, add some sort of adaptor for the wires. Not rocket science.


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## turbodog (Aug 22, 2008)

Illum_the_nation said:


> Heat is the primary concern [if you ever tried to wear a solder gun on your ear you'd understand the nervousness], and heat has a direct relationship with output. This goes for both LED and *incandescent*. In addition, field lighting requires very little especually in total darkness and runtime is often more important than output in these cases.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say ALL headlamps as there are HID headlamps around.



It's not as much of a problem with an incan. Other thing I can think of is battery weight and physical size.

Basically.... headlamps are constrained by your head.


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## Illum (Aug 22, 2008)

hopkins said:


> Don't know why Fenix or Surefire has not made a headlamp version.



go look up the surefire saint headlamp


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## Yucca Patrol (Aug 22, 2008)

Fenix is supposed to be working on a headlamp right now. I'm waiting for specs or the actual lamp to show up. 

I'm ready to buy a new one and for me it is a race between Surefire and Fenix to actually bring one to market since I'll probably buy the first one available.


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## jirik_cz (Aug 22, 2008)

There are some very powerful LED headlamps by Lupine, Fox fury or Mila. But they are all pretty expensive. Many traditional headlamp manufacturers announced new more powerful models on an Outdoor 2008 exhibition at Friedrichshafen. So the future is bright



NickBose said:


> No, I can never understand. Somebody tell me: is it really that hard to get the head of something like this and stick it onto an elastic band with a battery holder somewhere and not selling at a ridiculous price? :thinking:



What about this one? http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=182560

I have one coming from a different dealer. It has only Luxeon III (so only 85 lumens max.) but I will try to upgrade it with SSC P4 U2.


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## hopkins (Aug 22, 2008)

Surefire Saint HL is vaporware ...but it looks very nice and strong. And Batt-Junction says 18 free batteries will ship with it. 1-to-100 lumens dial control (the best feature!). 
...I still like the idea of a conversion kit from flashlight to headlamp that would be an option when buying the light.
...and it'd have that gadget factor we at CPF love so dearly!


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## ifor powell (Aug 22, 2008)

These are all fairly bright even the hallogens. They are very expensive thought.





As has been said heat is the problem. You need a metal housing to be able to turn the wick up a bit more and the mainstream manufacturers just have not biten the bullet and done it. Even the Petzel Ultra with 360 Lumens is way under the output it should be capable of with 6 leds.

Ifor


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## hopkins (Aug 23, 2008)

Hei ifor powell! Wow...that looks like a great store to visit on payday!
...are the battery packs for those monster headlamps hidden under the table because of their large ( I'm not carrying that brick!) size might affect sales ?

nickbose - suspect you've got to come up with the cash for one of those big
monster output headlamps or build your own. Don't know how I'd feel hacksawing the front end off a $100+ Surefire flashlight though...:mecry::mecry::mecry:


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## metlarules (Aug 23, 2008)

Generally speaking a headlamp is used for close to intermediate ranges and 200 lumens isn't needed at those ranges.Like I've said before you don't need 200 lumens to grab a beer out of the icechest at night while camping.


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## hopkins (Aug 23, 2008)

oh I agree. For dark adapted eyes a single 5mm LED is all thats needed.
But there are special cases like at that midnight accident scene, with lots of
response vehicles lights blazing and ruining your night vision you need an
equally bright headlamp to see stuff in the shadows.


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## LEDninja (Aug 23, 2008)

Elektrolumens Minimak 14500 with Nite-ize headband - SSC-P4, Fraen optic, 14500, cutdown [email protected]





The torch in the OP should also fit the Nite-ize headband. The Fenix L2T/D and P2/3D are fatter but will go into the loop with some pushing. It is preferable to use a 2 cell light as the hot parts are further away from the loop and your head.


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## serious sam (Aug 24, 2008)

Foxfury Pro headlamp are rated 300 lumens & 520 lumens...


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## scottaw (Aug 24, 2008)

The headlamp is for walking around and using your hands, that other light that should be in your hand is for spotting things... I NEVER use high on my PT apex.


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## Dung Beetle (Aug 24, 2008)

Lupine X Betty may be what you looking for, if you got $1100.00 It has an output about 1500 lumens. :candle:

Gretna bikes.com


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## surfinsmiley (Aug 24, 2008)

NickBose said:


> What's wrong with all the headlamps? While for handheld lights we are talking about 200+ lumens (not counting the SSC P7 lights here) I struggled to find a headlamp with output > 100 lumens.
> 
> Is the Energizer e2 the only one that can spits 140 lumens (only in burst mode of 30 seconds I think)? - forget exotic beast like Scurion, I'm not that rich.
> 
> ...




I`m hearing ya! I`ve been looking for a high power headlamp at a reasonable price for ages..... They don`t exist and I don`t understand why. Heat sinking is a lame excuse and easily overcome.

One SSC P7 and two 18650`s that`s completely waterproof should be easy to build and meet my needs perfectly. Is it to much to ask? I don`t think so!


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## Marduke (Aug 24, 2008)

surfinsmiley said:


> Heat sinking is a lame excuse and easily overcome.




Really now? Any exactly how do you propose they overcome the laws of physics to produce a brighter headlamp with either no added heat, or no added mass? With high output, you have two choices. You can either have a very hot, and self-damaging light sitting right on your forehead, or you can hang a big chunk of metal off the front of your forehead for heatsinking. There is a reason most headlamps either use reduced output from the start, or thermal throttling to keep the heat manageable.


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## PhantomPhoton (Aug 24, 2008)

First, when you're holding the ice axe in one hand and the rope which keeps you from falling off the mountain in the other... there's nothing left to hold a more powerful light with. A high power headlamp is needed now and again. Most of the time a full 500 lumens isn't necissary, however thre are times when it would help so much to have full illumination.

Second, we don't need thermal mass to heatsink the LED, just surface area. Designing a proper heatsink that will fit on the forehead is not a large problem. 

The major problem is most manufacturers still seem to have anal-rectal inversions - hence they keep bulding their headlamps out of plastic. Only a couple have made decent aluminum framed lights (like Stenlight). But when there's no significant competition, the prices stay high. And there is little variety to caer to different needs, preferences and uses.


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## Mark620 (Aug 24, 2008)

scottaw said:


> I NEVER use high on my PT apex.




Good thing...I have built some battery packs that can actually drive the PT Apex on high for an extended time and they shut down due to heat. After about 15 min they work again....


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## NickBose (Aug 24, 2008)

PhantomPhoton said:


> most manufacturers still seem to have anal-rectal inversions



:lolsign:


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## NickBose (Aug 24, 2008)

LEDninja said:


> Elektrolumens Minimak 14500 with Nite-ize headband - SSC-P4, Fraen optic, 14500, cutdown [email protected]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If used for close range (within 50cm), how easy is it to aim the light at the target? Side-mounting may not be very good for close-range illumination?


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## hopkins (Aug 25, 2008)

Just had a thought that we may have reached the level of technology of LED's
where active cooling is needed for putting out a lot of light for a long time.

...and to keep the headlamps weight down a tiny cooling fan might be the key...


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## TorchBoy (Aug 25, 2008)

Illum_the_nation said:


> Heat is the primary concern [if you ever tried to wear a solder gun on your ear you'd understand the nervousness], and heat has a direct relationship with output.


I've never had any of my homemade headlamps melting their own solder contacts, but I have had a melting plastic smell from a Luxeon K2.



metlarules said:


> Like I've said before you don't need 200 lumens to grab a beer out of the icechest at night while camping.


And the radiant light energy would be absorbed (particularly with dark coloured cans) which would heat up the beer. 

hopkins, that heatsink *rocks*. :tinfoil:

NickBose, is the new generation LED headlamp thread relevant?


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## chesterqw (Aug 25, 2008)

battery life matters too...

you don't want a light which you change batteries every hour...


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## abvidledUK (Aug 25, 2008)

It is only natural to look at someone who talks to you.

Having a very bright headlamp would not be wise.

However, I like these :









(Daleks, BBC Dr Who, UK)


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## NoFair (Aug 25, 2008)

Mark620 said:


> Good thing...I have built some battery packs that can actually drive the PT Apex on high for an extended time and they shut down due to heat. After about 15 min they work again....


 
I use mine with a 2X18650 pack and have used it on high for hours without any issues... :shrug:

It is often pretty cold here in Norway, but still sounds like your Apex might not be functioning 100%:thinking:

Mine are currently using Seoul emitters, but I ran them on high for long periods of time when they had Luxeon emitters as well..

Sverre


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## hopkins (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi Nofair - were you in windy conditions that helped carry away the heat
from the PT Apex heat sink?
When doing runtime tests at home I have used a small fan to cool the light
thinking it would be a more realistic test for hiking and avoid any LED life shortening the heat might cause..
-hopkins


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## NoFair (Aug 25, 2008)

hopkins said:


> Hi Nofair - were you in windy conditions that helped carry away the heat
> from the PT Apex heat sink?
> When doing runtime tests at home I have used a small fan to cool the light
> thinking it would be a more realistic test for hiking and avoid any LED life shortening the heat might cause..
> -hopkins


 
Some of the times I've been hiking or skiing (think cold to extremely cold), but other times I've been working on one of the cars or installing wiring (often used as a stationary light source off my head). 

The heatsink does get warm, and the casing does get warmish, but not very.. 

Sverre


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## hopkins (Aug 25, 2008)

got it! 
But for us CPF'ers down here in the hotter regions of the planet...

...I'm still laughing at the image of a cpu cooling fan attached to a headlamp!
Suppose you're already pumping 1.0amp into the LED why worry about
another 100mA for a cooling fan to prevent a thermal event? :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## abvidledUK (Aug 25, 2008)

hopkins said:


> ...I'm still laughing at the image of a cpu cooling fan attached to a headlamp!
> Suppose you're already pumping 1.0amp into the LED why worry about
> another 100mA for a cooling fan to prevent a thermal event? :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:



Use a solar powered fan ?

(Powered by the torch, not by the Sun, not much of that around at night ! )


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## uk_caver (Aug 26, 2008)

chesterqw said:


> battery life matters too...
> 
> you don't want a light which you change batteries every hour...



I think that's one of the main issues for a lot of the potential market.
People who use headlamps frequently use them for many hours at a stretch, whereas flashlights are often just used for short bursts.

For most practical purposes, a 100 lumen headlight lights most things up nearly as well as a 200 lumen light would, while having something like 3x the runtime on a given set of cells.

With my Zebralight, I don't mind the low duration on high, since it's only running off a single cell. However, I wouldn't really be interested in a ~3W headlight that only gave me 3-4 hours off a set of AAs, and (like a lot of people), I'm not currently interested in using li-ion power.


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## etc (Aug 26, 2008)

The output is not low. The tech as implemented is about 2 years behind the latest and greatest from the lab. By standard 2 years ago, these are very bright LEDs. Wait for 2 years and you will get something better. 

Having said that, I would love a custom made HL. Something a la Malkoff or Elektrolumens. Several hundred lumens, on 4xAA cells or even a C/D cell pack. I think I would prefer to contain all in one unit instead of having addition wires.


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## TorchBoy (Aug 26, 2008)

etc said:


> ... a C/D cell pack. I think I would prefer to contain all in one unit instead of having addition wires.


That might be a tad front-heavy. :mecry:


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## Woods Walker (Aug 26, 2008)

I mosty need runtime not 200 lumens. Thinking the same is true for others.


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## TorchBoy (Aug 26, 2008)

Woods Walker said:


> I mosty need runtime not 200 lumens. Thinking the same is true for others.


It's nice to have the option. I installed a "turbo" button in my favourite headlamp yesterday, for a momentary brighter light.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 26, 2008)

TorchBoy said:


> It's nice to have the option. I installed a "turbo" button in my favourite headlamp yesterday, for a momentary brighter light.


 

Here is my turbo button.


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## Jagge (Aug 27, 2008)

Not all. There is lots of headlamps with resonable output, 500-1500 lumens. Some of them are made for orienteering racing - you need lots of light to be able to run full speed in pathless forest without getting injured - and some are bike lights with head a band. 

Only budget versions of these high power lamps are missing. Out of curiosity I made headlamp out of a P7 flashlight just to compare how it performs compared to my primary race weapon, a 700$ headlamp. Some details can be found at homemade lights section of this forum. Most of the orienteering community worldwide is still using 20W halogens and are waiting for something like my homemade popping up at reasonable price.


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## NickBose (Sep 5, 2008)

There's a new Ultrafire on DX with a rating of 130 lumen. Although it's good to have a red LED, this only has one mode. About quality, I think Ultrafire is a good brand.

How do you think the output would compare to this one with 6 LED.


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## Marduke (Sep 6, 2008)

It would be at least 4 times brighter, but don't expect the quality to be much.


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## hopkins (Sep 6, 2008)

That Ultrafire headlamp pic looks a lot like the Smith&Wesson 3aaa Cree headlamp I bought at Big5 Sporting Goods last month. 

Don't think it can dump heat any better either with its all plastic body.

I almost suspect it'll melt if left on with fresh lithiums or NimH cells. The reason I installed another switch and resistor for a low mode in mine.


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## NickBose (Sep 6, 2008)

Marduke said:


> It would be at least 4 times brighter, but don't expect the quality to be much.



Which one is 4 times brighter and why do you think so?


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## Marduke (Sep 6, 2008)

NickBose said:


> Which one is 4 times brighter and why do you think so?



The Cree would whoop a silly 5mm showerhead headlamp. However, like I said, the quality on either is probably pretty crappy and not worth the money. For $25, you can get a much nicer Coleman headlamp at WalMart.


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## fluke (Sep 7, 2008)

LEDninja said:


> Elektrolumens Minimak 14500 with Nite-ize headband - SSC-P4, Fraen optic, 14500, cutdown [email protected]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What size is the head band ???
Not all heads are the same


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## Flashfirstask?later (Sep 7, 2008)

fluke said:


> What size is the head band ???
> Not all heads are the same


They are adjustable (velcro) but it certainly is not long enough for say a safety hardhat. The one thing I do not like about this is the side spill can get into what ever eye it is by if it is not forward enough.

For Canadians, the cheapest store I have seen them is the Mountain Equipment Co-op sores (www.mec.ca) at $4.25 and they also have the Nite Ize Stretch Lite Holster for $6.50 (clearing out AA size at $5.00) as it can be used at horizontal at waist level.


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## NickBose (Sep 7, 2008)

Marduke said:


> The Cree would whoop a silly 5mm showerhead headlamp. However, like I said, the quality on either is probably pretty crappy and not worth the money. For $25, you can get a much nicer Coleman headlamp at WalMart.



I doubt that the LEDs in the rechargeable 6-LED lamp are normal 5mm LED. There are 2 reviews on DX page and both said it's very bright, one estimated it to be around 80 lumens. It must not be the case if it's 6 5-mm LEDs.


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## Marduke (Sep 7, 2008)

5mm's can only be so bright. Definitely not 80 lumens for 6 of them.


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## t3h (Sep 8, 2008)

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15688

That's the more expensive of the two most recent ones. It features 6 LEDs, which are actually red, green and blue, not used for the white. The white is a P4. Would a Q5 or R2 just be a drop-in swap (well, with some soldering)?

The description says it's 5 mode - taking away 3 for red, green and blue must mean it's got a low mode? Or is the 5th mode something to do with the red *thing* on the back?


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## TorchBoy (Sep 8, 2008)

t3h said:


> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15688
> 
> That's the more expensive of the two most recent ones.


I checked it just half an hour ago. There are more products already! :tinfoil:


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## hopkins (Sep 8, 2008)

I read and reread the Ultrafire headlamps function description and it 'seems'
to use those 5mm red-green-blue LEDs with 4 legs each. So *all 6 5mm LEDs will be powered at the same time* but emitting
either red, green, or blue depending on which leg is getting the juice. 
The Cree will have one mode only -High! 
And a blinking 5mm LED 'red' mode.
So thats the 5 modes. 

Suspect thats a non powered reflector on that beautifully designed battery pack. I'd be very envious if I was following this headlamp on a trail knowing
how dull and ordinary the Myo battery pack looked on my head.

.......and it looks to be an enclosed plastic headpiece without any ability to dump 130lumens worth of heat. Or is that black metal?

This lamp is unusual to say the least.


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## TorchBoy (Sep 8, 2008)

There are no electrical contacts to the battery cover, and it looks like plastic to me.


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## hopkins (Sep 9, 2008)

Yup its plastic. Too bad. Think it needs a separate switch for the Cree.
Wonder how well the Cree is heat sinked inside and if it can be opened
for some clever modifications.


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## TorchBoy (Sep 9, 2008)

Looks like a couple of screw holes at the top of the back panel, so I'm guessing yes.


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## degarb (Sep 9, 2008)

To me, as a work task light, you need 8-10 hour run time. Currently 3 AA have about 9 watt hour recharegables. That mean 1 watt max for a full day and 1.5 watt allowable on 6 hour days. 

10 minutes down time for a change (inviting breaks for workers): 1 AA format every 2 hour or 40 minutes a day. Roughly, 1 hour in every 10, or 10 hours per 100 or 100 hours per 1000 hour large job. Thus, the push for full day duration.

A rebel 100 or r2, though please. With either a variable pot or many lower settings. Then one can get 13 or 14 hours with over 100 lumens when needed.

I usually mod the 3 AAA format to 3 AA. I found, so far,1 AA in front and 2 AA in rear of band, is best balance of life and comfort. I suppose 2 or 3 18650's or 6 cr 123a packs, would be better. But this seems a like a big jump, and not sure of practicallity for a small fleet of lights.


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## TorchBoy (Sep 9, 2008)

degarb said:


> To me, as a work task light, you need 8-10 hour run time. Currently 3 AA have about 9 watt hour recharegables. That mean 1 watt max for a full day and 1.5 watt allowable on 6 hour days.


Ever thought of changing your battery during lunch?

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say during your second paragraph. Changing a battery doesn't use up one tenth of a day.

Since you're modding, you could mod to six AA cells and use a suitable buck driver, but you might find people are happier taking a few seconds to change three cells half way through the day than wearing six the whole day. I guess it comes down to whether one watt is enough light to do the job effectively.


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## ahorton (Sep 10, 2008)

For a few months I've been reading through these forums but this thread has inspired me to post something.

My interest in lights comes purely from rogaining (24 hr orienteering) and I started making my own headtorches after being frustrated by what is currently on the market.

I wanted a light that had 2 settings,
1 - very low power and broad to look at maps and see my feet (no more than 5m vision.
2 - a very high and focused beam to find controls (300x300mm pieces of corrugated plastic) and work out subtle variations in the landscape.

I really have no need for anything in between.

So I researched and discovered high powered leds, cree and the aspheric lens.

I'm up to my 5th generation of lights but the general theme has been:

- Chunk of cpu or windowframe aluminium on the forehead.
- Cree Q5 or R2 behind an aspheric (30-50mm) 
- 4 5mm leds for low level
- 6 nimh (AA on the head or C in the backpack) or 2 lipo
- 3021 buckpuck for the Cree
- Small sliding switch to send power to 5mm leds or the cree.

Initially I had the aim of sending a thin beam of light as far as possible. Then I realised that at 350m, I can't see a 300mm control in broad daylight even though the torch could shine that far. So now I'm aiming for maximum beam width at 200m.


Somewhere in the mail are new lenses, 40 AMC7135s, 2 MCEs and other bits and pieces.

Thanks for this forum. I have learnt a lot and gotten hooked.


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## TorchBoy (Sep 10, 2008)

:welcome: ahorton! Your lights sound great. Do start a thread sometime about them, preferably with pics.


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## hopkins (Sep 11, 2008)

speaking of aluminum heat sinks in headlamps: I finally added a strip
of aluminum metal to the Smith & Wesson Cree 3AAA headlamp I bought
at Big5 Sporting Goods. After 5 minutes its very hot to the touch so at
least its taking heat outside the lamp body.

I just cut a slot in the body so the aluminum strip contacts the underside of the Cree LED assembly inside; helped by some thermal paste. Pictures:
note: sometimes you have to go back and click on these links again for the pic to appear...:thinking:
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx17Yt_0
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1jnao0
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1jncT9
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1jnmRJ


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## ahorton (Sep 11, 2008)

Many times I have considered cutting the back off a bought headtorch and increasing the heatsink that way. Every time I consider it I end up deciding to just make the whole head unit out of aluminium.

I'm really keen to hear how long you think it's safe to run that thing at high power at a particular ambient temperature.


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## hopkins (Sep 11, 2008)

My guess is without any wind at room temp that 10 minutes is a safe runtime.
But outdoors, at night, (duh!) with any breeze it would be ok for any runtime.

I ran it for 1hr 40minutes till it started to dim (aaa NimH batteries nearly empty
at 400mA beginning drain current). I confess to starting a little fan blowing on the heatsink
stub after 15 minutes as it worried me how hot it was. The fan cooled it
down (LED still on full blast) within 5 minutes till it felt cool to the touch for the 
remaining runtime.

There are a lot of documents to be viewed on the web about heat sinks.
Seems many people have devoted serious thought to heat and its mostly
in easy to understand form. Do a search for "heat sink".


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## NickBose (Oct 5, 2008)

I found this for those of us down under

http://electusdistribution.com.au/productView.asp?URL=index&ID=10962&CATID=21&SUBCATID=216

- 3 x AAA
- screw-lock battery case (? more durable than most others with a plastic snap)
- 2 separate switch: on/off and modes. 
- and battery indicator. those features are interesting
- Low is useless (not low enough I mean) 80 lumen vs Hi listed at 130
- Price: not ridiculous

:thumbsup:


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