# My case for the underrated, underloved Surefire M4



## ebow86 (Dec 3, 2010)

It just seems like everytime I did up an older thread discussing the Surefire M4 here there is one common theme I see get the M6, the M4 is just a stepping stone to the M6 or the M6 is a better setup than the M4 etc, etc. Time and time again I always see this. I promise you if you start a poll on the M4 vs the M6 far more people will choose the M6 over the M4, feeling its superior to the M4. So what I wanted to do is start a compairson thread between the M4 and the M6 to prove to myself (and anyone willing to listen) that even though the M4 doesnt get much love around here it is a worty competitor to the mighty M6 and is not inferior as many M6 users might think. Keep in mind this is a compairson between stock lights. Here we go...



Cost- Gotta give it to the M4, buying these retail the M6 cost $75 more. Winner M4



Cost to operate- Again, have to give it to the M4, 4 primaries vs 6 primaries. If running the lights stock those two extra cells will really add up over time. Winner M4



Ease of switching to Lithium ion rechargeable's- Kind of debatable abit, but I'm going to give it to the M4, no special battery carries needed, just slide in your cells and change the lamp, can't get simpler than that, most heavy modification you could do is bore the body to accept 18650's. Winner M4



Overall output- Have to give it to the M6 here. M6 is brighter, whiter, longer with both the LOLA and the HOLA. Keep in mind though that when running the LOLA lamps the MN60 has a much superior beam and hotspot than the M6's MN20, MN60's hotspot nice and round whereas the MN20 is more oblong, so you have to consider that. But being able to run the MN15 in the M6 pushes it over the edge here, so M6 wins, though I believe the M4 does hold it's own. Winner M6



Weight- M4 weighs 11.6 ounces where as the M6 weighs 15.9 ounces, which would be noticably heavier, Winner M4



Length- No brainer here, M6 is 7.9 inches long whereas the M4 is 9.2 inches long. M6 is easier to throw in a glovebox or backpack, etc. Winner M6



Handling- Have to give this catagory a tie seeing as it's a personal preference. Now, there are some like myself who like the longer thinner body of the M4 so for them the M4, whereas some like the shorter fatter body of the M6, so for this reason I'm giving them a TIE



Swaping batteries in the field- This is a big one that I never see mentioned here. M4 hands down. If one's using the M6 in the field and a quick battery swap is needed, unless you have 4 hands, or another person with you, you are crap out of luck. One would have to be very skilled to swap the batteries in the M6 in the middle of night, whereas the M4 is a simple operation. I feel this is a huge catagory for me, especially if one is using lamps with only 20 minutes burn time. Winner M4



Ability to switch to clicky tailcap- As far as surefire tailcaps are concerned, I don't believe the M6 has a clicky tailcap available, whereas you have a wide selection to choose from if you want one for your M4. There may be some type of mod out there to convert your M6 tailcap to a clicky, I don't know, but I have to give this catagory to the M4. Winner M4



So there you have it. The M4 is one truly underrated underloved light IMHO, especially when you compair it to the M6, so that's why I wanted to do this thread. So, IMHO, the M4 IS NOT a stepping stone to the M6. Agree or disagree, but this is my case for the underrated Surefire M4.


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## HotWire (Mar 17, 2011)

+1 on that! I have 2 M4s. One runs on WA 1111 with 17650 X 2, and one runs on IMR 16340 X 3 with Lumens Factory IMR bulb. Both have Surefire Fatty SW01 tailcaps.:devil:

EDIT: I like them so much that I bought another. This one is getting a SMO reflector, 1185 and three new batteries. A SW01 switch will come later (when I can find a good deal). 

Why do I like them? Great turbo reflector, bulb options, ergonomic twisty switch, and easy to lego.


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## angelofwar (Mar 17, 2011)

Mine's stock (most of my SF's are), but I will add this. the MN60 is one of SF's greatest bulbs. My M4 LOLA out throws my M6 LOLA by about 50' due to the tight beam the MN60 provides. Plus, the M4 is easier to carry with a lanyard. I Love mine, and will give up my M6 before I give up my M4. Just my$.02.


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## NotRegulated (Mar 18, 2011)

I am willing to listen! 

My M4 is a hybrid. It has a 2x18650 Leef tube rather than the stock M4 tube. I am running a Lumen Factory EO-M3T Extreme High Output 9V, 450 Lumen Lamp Assembly on 2 x 3.7V 18650 Rechargeable Battery's. It will also run the stock lamp assembly's with 4 CR123's but I usually don't run it this way.


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## Darien (Mar 18, 2011)

This will most likely be my next light, even though I have always hoped to one day own a M6. I think I can hold off on the M4 until I know the M3 well. AofW, you just sold me on the M4 first, I like a tight beam. Thanks for all the comments, I'm paying attention.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 19, 2011)

I love my M4's. My favorites! (tied with the M6 of cause )


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## Monocrom (Mar 19, 2011)

I love my M4.

Love it even more since it's a custom Leef-bodied M4


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## [email protected] (Mar 25, 2011)

When I bought my M4 there was a choice between it and the M6 for the exact same dollar as the shop seemed to be clearing them out. I went with the M4 for one of the reasons above, 4 cells and 225 lumens vs. 6 cells and 250 lumens. I don't have a M6 to compare to, but AOW's post reinforces my opinion that I made a good choice.


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## Paladin (Mar 25, 2011)

I don't consider my personal M4's as either underrated or underloved. The wife and I often hike at night in remote unlit areas, and have never said, "Gee, I wish this light was brighter". Americans in general tend to suffer from "magnumitus" and think that more is better. _Not in my world, which is based on reality in natural settings._

Paladin


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## Monocrom (Mar 26, 2011)

Paladin said:


> Americans in general tend to suffer from "magnumitus" and think that more is better. _Not in my world, which is based on reality in natural settings._
> 
> Paladin


 
This American chooses to ignore your reality, and substitute my own. 

In my world, the Sun comes out when you hit the tailcap switch.


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## Paladin (Mar 26, 2011)

Monocrom said:


> In my world, the Sun comes out when you hit the tailcap switch.


 
Just a minute. OK, my Raybans are on. Hiking at night wearing sunglasses kind of defeats the purpose on night hiking. Once the sun comes out all the night people and critters think it's time for bed.

Paladin


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## Monocrom (Mar 27, 2011)

True.

But I've never seen anyone look terrible in a nice pair of shades.


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## Tempest UK (Mar 27, 2011)

My preference is for the M6, but I like my M4s too. 

As for the ease of changing batteries "in the field" (that term leads me to suggest you're referring to military/LEO usage, which would make sense for the M6) then it will of course be pain to remove the cells from the MB20 and put six more in, especially in the dark, but the battery magazine itself is very quickly and easily swapped out for another pre-loaded one. Buying a $100 battery magazine just to make changing the batteries easier probably won't be worth it for a lot of people here, but if you're a situation where changing the batteries in your M6 quickly is really important, then you might be the sort of person who could benefit from it.

As I said, I still like my M4s, but the M6 edges it for me. Also, if I decide not to use my M6 and want something smaller/slimmer, I'm more likely to reach for an M3/M3T/M3LT than the M4.


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## NotRegulated (Mar 27, 2011)

HotWire said:


> +1 on that! I have 2 M4s.


 


DimeRazorback said:


> I love my M4's.


 


Paladin said:


> I don't consider my personal M4's
> Paladin


 


Tempest UK said:


> My preference is for the M6, but I like my M4s too.
> 
> 
> As I said, I still like my M4s, but the M6 edges it for me.




It warms my heart that that all these respondents have not one M4 but* several M4's*.


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## Fusion_m8 (Mar 28, 2011)

My favourite prawning light is the M4 with a HO-M3T lamp running off 2xAW17670s, gives me 60mins+ of runtime. If I need longer runtimes, I just swap the HO-M3T lamp to a MN15. With the MN15 I get over 90mins of runtime before noticeable dimming.


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## HotWire (Mar 29, 2011)

I see *nature* better when I twist on the M4. Incandescent light makes nature *pop.* Colors are more realistic and the sheer brightness makes burglars run faster!:devil:


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## computernut (Mar 31, 2011)

I use my M4 every time I walk my dog in a nearby wilderness park. I've always wanted an M4, to me it's the perfect shape/size/styling for a light. When I was on vacation I had the opportunity to try out an M3, M4, and M6 all in the same store and it solidified my love for the M4 so I eventually bought one. I like the length as I can easily shove it under my arm when necessary. I'll definitely be buying an M3 and M6 to keep the M4 company but I have the feeling the M4 will still be the first light I grab.


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## Tempest UK (Mar 31, 2011)

NotRegulated said:


> It warms my heart that that all these respondents have not one M4 but* several M4's*.


 
You never quite know if you like a light until you've bought a few of them


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## angelofwar (Mar 31, 2011)

Running into a little conundrum...Since I have an M4 and M6, but prefer the M4...is there any reason to keep the M6??? Help!!!


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## NotRegulated (Mar 31, 2011)

angelofwar said:


> Running into a little conundrum...Since I have an M4 and M6, but prefer the M4...is there any reason to keep the M6??? Help!!!


 
Yes!
They can both use rechargeable li-on cells and primary CR123's. 2x17670's in the the M4's tube or 2x17670's in the M6's in a 2x18650 battery adapter. You can run LF HO-M3T lamp assembly's in both or a MN15 LOLA with the 17670's. Of course with the primary cells, the stock lamp assembly's apply. One of the Turbo heads can act as a spare for the other if need be. You can put the M6 Turbo head on your M3 or your M961. And of all people, I know you know that they are both cool models in the Surefire line and you can never have too many cool lights!


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## computernut (Mar 31, 2011)

angelofwar said:


> Running into a little conundrum...Since I have an M4 and M6, but prefer the M4...is there any reason to keep the M6??? Help!!!


 
If I had an M6 I'd definitely take a look at the PhD regulated battery pack, the big handle of the M6 gives modders lots of room for putting regulation circuitry in that you just can't do on smaller tubed lights.


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## Monocrom (Apr 1, 2011)

angelofwar said:


> Running into a little conundrum...Since I have an M4 and M6, but prefer the M4...is there any reason to keep the M6??? Help!!!


 
Back-up for the M4 in case something happens to it. Redundant capability is extremely important.

2nd reason . . . You know you're going to regret it if you sell off your M6.


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## angelofwar (Apr 1, 2011)

Thanks for all the help guys...yeah, I definitely like having back-up parts...And I would eventually regret selling it...I have 7 "M-Series" compatible lights...but man...that Emerson C2-HA-BK in the MP is Soooo tempting...I can always get a M6 next tax return...Arghhhh......


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## Kestrel (Apr 1, 2011)

The M6 you currently have is way better than the M6 you _could_ have, LOL.

Seriously, I know I don't have much cred here in the */Incan/* subforum, but if I had one incan, it would be the M6. 
That PhD regulated battery pack for the M6 seems to be the finest incandescent achievement ever IMO.


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## ebow86 (Sep 7, 2011)

I can't believe all this time has passed and I _still_ don't own an M4, well ok, I sorta have one, not the real thing, but just as good. I hear ya AOW, ditch the frankenstein and get the real thing, I know, I know.







Hey wait a minute, who's that chubby fat little fellow showing his mug in this thread I have decicated to the M4? How dare he, well, I guess since he's only about 10 hours old in this house, I'll let him slide just this once


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## ebow86 (Sep 8, 2011)

Well, after owning my M6 for 2 days now I have to say I really like it a lot. The output is indeed superior to that of the M4's lamps, in regards to brightness and whiteness over the lifespan of the batteries, and it is the most solid feeling light I have ever held, however, I have to say that as much as I'm liking the M6, I still prefer the M4 or my M4 Frankenstein if you will. I feel I have at the very least slightly larger than average hand size and despite this, the M6 still feels quite large and bulky in the hands, and attempting to twist the tailcap for constant on with one hand is much more difficult to do on the M6 as it is on the Z41 on my M4 Frankenstein.

I think the longer, thinner body of the M4 feels much better and more comfortable than that of the M6. Also, as I pointed out in my OP, although the situation may never arise, I like the fact than if I ever require a battery change in field, I will have no issues doing so with the M4, whereas with the M6 your SOL. This in my mind is a huge advantage, especially depending on the line of work you may be in.

All in all, the M4 (or 9P Frankenstein if you will) and M6 are great lights, but even though I feel in the minority here, I still prefer the M4.

A real M4 Devestator is going to be my next purchase, I don't care how long a have to save and eat beans


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## Filip (Sep 8, 2011)

From time to time I add to my 9P/KT2 an 1 x CR123 extender + 1 x 18650 extender making this way a respectable rod of light (or super 9P Frankenstein if you will), as I use it to run HO-M6R on 3 x 18650. AW softstart makes it even better. Last autumn I used it to gather walnuts in our garden during late evening hours - not very practical ;-) but the FM24 diffuser creates such a nice warm wall of light. Great for relaxing and walking in the leaves .


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## PCC (Feb 18, 2012)

Fusion_m8 said:


> My favourite prawning light is the M4 with a HO-M3T lamp running off 2xAW17670s, gives me 60mins+ of runtime. If I need longer runtimes, I just swap the HO-M3T lamp to a MN15. With the MN15 I get over 90mins of runtime before noticeable dimming.


Looks like I'm going to have to see if I can get some MN15 or the HO-M3T LAs. Picking up a lightly used M4 with both the Z41 and an SW01 (or is it an SW02?) for a song real soon and this post has convinced me that this light should remain an incan.


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## ampdude (Feb 19, 2012)

The M4 is a great light. It is more efficient at 12 volts than the M6's 9 volt lamp assembly and a lot more slender. I like both lights though a lot so it would be hard to choose one over the other, but the M6 has a lot of aftermarket options for it.


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## jamesmtl514 (Feb 19, 2012)

I modded my M4 to be one of my grail lights. Because I've made it "perfect" I want to get another as a user.

There's still love for my M6 though.


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## angelofwar (Feb 21, 2012)

Still waiting for the right part so I can mount my M4 on top of my new Remington 700 :0)


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## Paladin (Feb 22, 2012)

angelofwar said:


> Still waiting for the right part so I can mount my M4 on top of my new Remington 700 :0)



If your scope body is 1", LaPoliceGear has what you need on closeout. The M35 Mount attaches to a 1" scope, then you need another 1" ring to hold the M4. Actually, a pair of mounts on your scope, and a pair of rings holding your M4.

Paladin

http://www.lapolicegear.com/surefire-m35-closeout.html


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## angelofwar (Feb 22, 2012)

Awesome! Thanks for the link Paladin!



Paladin said:


> If your scope body is 1", LaPoliceGear has what you need on closeout. The M35 Mount attaches to a 1" scope, then you need another 1" ring to hold the M4. Actually, a pair of mounts on your scope, and a pair of rings holding your M4.
> 
> Paladin
> 
> http://www.lapolicegear.com/surefire-m35-closeout.html


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## tobrien (Sep 21, 2013)

I recently got a mint M4 and it really is a truly phenomenal light. In fact, I don't think I'll even bother upgrading or modding it to LED because I just love it the way it is.

The beam is nice, focused, and round and doesn't have the weird, oval-like ellipse spot my M3 has (another M3 I had once did the same thing. intentional design from Surefire?).

it's so much more grippy than my M3 and the length is just right for me _and_ it uses an even number of cells (4) to power it up (I prefer to use cells in pairs if I can help it... am I weird?).

Barring me ever owning and evaluating an M6, I think the M4 is the perfect light for incandescent use in all honesty.

disclaimer: I have an M3 and it's awesome, too, especially with the MN11 bulb I will say. This post isn't trying to badmouth the M3. Different lights for different needs!


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## konig (Sep 21, 2013)

Try using it with 2x 17670 and a LF EO-M3T. Or the M3-head, 2x 17670 an LF LF HO-M3.


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## tobrien (Sep 21, 2013)

konig said:


> Try using it with 2x 17670 and a LF EO-M3T. Or the M3-head, 2x 17670 an LF LF HO-M3.



I may end up ordering the EO-M3T like you're suggesting. I did already order a Lumens Factory HO-M4A (12 volts, 550 lumens) from LightHound today though, so we'll see if it works well for me 

does the EO-M3T _have_ to be used with M3 turbo heads (when on an M3) or could one make it work on a regular M3?

(I have 2x 17500s I could use in my regular M3)


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## ASheep (Sep 21, 2013)

tobrien said:


> I may end up ordering the EO-M3T like you're suggesting. I did already order a Lumens Factory HO-M4A (12 volts, 550 lumens) from LightHound today though, so we'll see if it works well for me
> 
> does the EO-M3T _have_ to be used with M3 turbo heads (when on an M3) or could one make it work on a regular M3?
> 
> (I have 2x 17500s I could use in my regular M3)



The T in the lumens factory names denotes they are designed for the Turbo Head. If you want to use 2x 17500s in your M3 you'll need the HO/EO-M3 bulb. 

I run a HO-M3T in my M4, it provides a great balance between runtime and output. I actually sold my M6, because I found every time I wanted a throwy incan, I'd grab my M4 instead!

Cheers,
Alex


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## tobrien (Sep 22, 2013)

ASheep said:


> The T in the lumens factory names denotes they are designed for the Turbo Head. If you want to use 2x 17500s in your M3 you'll need the HO/EO-M3 bulb.
> 
> I run a HO-M3T in my M4, it provides a great balance between runtime and output. I actually sold my M6, because I found every time I wanted a throwy incan, I'd grab my M4 instead!
> 
> ...



oh nice! (particularly regarding you always choosing the M4 w/ HO-M3T over the M6 )

I don't have an M3 turbohead but I guess its socket for the bulb is a lot different than a regular M3 head then?

thanks for your post, buddy!


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## jamesmtl514 (Sep 23, 2013)

Yup, i have 3-4 M4 lights and it's among my favorite. It works remarkably well with a nailbender warm dropin and SW01.



WTB: anything, and everything SUREFIRE


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## cland72 (Sep 23, 2013)

tobrien said:


> oh nice! (particularly regarding you always choosing the M4 w/ HO-M3T over the M6 )
> 
> I don't have an M3 turbohead but I guess its socket for the bulb is a lot different than a regular M3 head then?
> 
> thanks for your post, buddy!



You have an M3 turbohead now! Just swap heads on the M4/M3...

Also, if you haven't checked out a M6, do it. At one time I had both a M6 and M4, and I sold the M4. I like the beefy M6, and was lucky enough to pick up a PhD-M6 battery pack so now I can run my MN20 as much as I want for free lumens.


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## tobrien (Sep 23, 2013)

cland72 said:


> You have an M3 turbohead now! Just swap heads on the M4/M3...
> 
> Also, if you haven't checked out a M6, do it. At one time I had both a M6 and M4, and I sold the M4. I like the beefy M6, and was lucky enough to pick up a PhD-M6 battery pack so now I can run my MN20 as much as I want for free lumens.



oh dang haha, I had absolutely no idea the M3T head was the M4 head lol

thanks for the info man! 

I do certainly still want an M6 whenever I can afford one. thank you bud!


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## Monocrom (Sep 23, 2013)

Both the M4 and M6 have rechargeable options. Though it's best to bore out the body of the M4 so it can take two 18650s. (If you track one down, you can use a Leef C-M 2x18650 custom body. Good luck finding anyone willing to part with theirs.' Mine definitely is not for sale.) Then just use the right rechargeable lamp from Lumens Factory. If you keep the body absolutely stock, you can use two 17670s instead.

If it ever got down to having to sell either my M6 and its rechargeable set-up or my Leef-bodied M4 and its set-up, I'd part with the M6 if I'm honest.


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## ASheep (Sep 23, 2013)

jamesmtl514 said:


> Yup, i have 3-4 M4 lights and it's among my favorite. It works remarkably well with a nailbender warm dropin and SW01.



Why oh Why did you have to mention that Nailbender LED dropin??? Now my wallet will have more reasons to cry... :laughing:
That's another great thing about the M4, the fact that you can use C/P/Z series tailcaps! It opens up more lego options, and also gun mount options! 

I wonder how funny a bored M4 would look with 2x cell extenders, running 3x18650 and a HO-M6R bulb... I think that's going on my list of stuff to try!



cland72 said:


> You have an M3 turbohead now! Just swap heads on the M4/M3...
> 
> Also, if you haven't checked out a M6, do it. At one time I had both a M6 and M4, and I sold the M4. I like the beefy M6, and was lucky enough to pick up a PhD-M6 battery pack so now I can run my MN20 as much as I want for free lumens.



M series Lego is fun! Put the M3 head on an M4 body with 2x17670 for longer runtimes, M4 head on M3 body for an M3T.
I loved my M6, but I just never used it. The hassle of having 6x 16340 fully charged was a bit of a downer for me. I had an AW 3 level softstart driver in my M6, medium mode was great with a HO-M6R_._ I think the PhD-M6 would be a great addon, gives you regulated incan goodness, AND less batteries to charge!



Monocrom said:


> Both the M4 and M6 have rechargeable options. Though it's best to bore out the body of the M4 so it can take two 18650s. (If you track one down, you can use a Leef C-M 2x18650 custom body. Good like finding anyone willing to part with theirs.' Mine definitely is not for sale.) Then just use the right rechargeable lamp from Lumens Factory. If you keep the body absolutely stock, you can use two 17670s instead.
> 
> If it ever got down to having to sell either my M6 and its rechargeable set-up or my Leef-bodied M4 and its set-up, I'd part with the M6 if I'm honest.



Mmmmmmmm Leef body.... I think you should ignore all the M4 love in this thread and sell me that inferior Leef bodied M4 and keep your bigger, better M6... :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Cheers,
Alex


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## Monocrom (Sep 24, 2013)

I put my Leef-bodied M4 together the wrong way. Instead of buying an M4 and then the body, I bought the body first. Then decided to just buy the parts I needed off of the CPF MarketPlace. Though I did get lucky that another member was parting out his M4 and I scored everything but the stock body, I still ended up horribly over-paying when everything was added up.

If you want it, I'd have to rip you off to an obscene degree on the price. I'm too nice of a guy to do that.


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## jamesmtl514 (Sep 25, 2013)

Did someone say 3x18650 M4?






WTB: anything, and everything SUREFIRE


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## cland72 (Sep 25, 2013)

jamesmtl514 said:


> Did someone say 3x18650 M4? http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/25/ujahenum.jpg
> 
> WTB: anything, and everything SUREFIRE



Oh, you suck.


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## kelmo (Sep 25, 2013)

I prefer the 12ZM for a stock incan.

My M4 has a SW02 and a MD60.

I also have an M4 tube+M3 bezel+MD10.

If you can get one, get a N62 LA. 500 lumens for 12 minutes!


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## ASheep (Sep 25, 2013)

jamesmtl514 said:


> Did someone say 3x18650 M4?



The Cavalry has arrived! I'm going to need some quiet time with that picture now... Your collection never fails to disappoint!

I prefer only having to charge 2 cells when I use my lights. That's what I'm going to keep telling myself... :laughing::laughing:

Cheers,
Alex


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## tobrien (Jan 9, 2014)

quick question for y'all regarding the M4 bulb options:

- Lumens Factory HO-M4A / 550 Lumens / 35 minutes

versus

- Surefire MN61 / 350 lumens / 20 minutes

is Lumens Factory *over*rating the HO-M4A bulb on runtime? I have the HO-M4A but don't have an MN61 so I can't _currently_ compare them directly. I'm assuming L-F rates at the bulb and not OTF? 

Why such a huge discrepancy in output/runtime between the SF and LF bulbs? Is the LF bulb more recent technology?


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## Monocrom (Jan 9, 2014)

Lumens Factory uses emitter lumens. SureFire uses out the front numbers.


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## tobrien (Jan 9, 2014)

Monocrom said:


> Lumens Factory uses emitter lumens. SureFire uses out the front numbers.



gotcha, thanks! but even if we take OTF on the LF bulb, it should probably be ~500 lumens right? there's a _huge_ difference between SF's and LF's offering on that regard


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## kelmo (Jan 9, 2014)

I have both and it has been awhile since I ran my M4/12ZM side by side but I do believe both beams are roughly equivalent in output when white wall hunting. The LF bulb puts out a more round beam as I recall. My only gripe about the LF product is the tolerances on the lamp posts. Sometimes you have to sand them down to get them to fit in the reflector assembly or SC2 spares carrier. 

kelmo


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## ampdude (Jan 9, 2014)

jamesmtl514 said:


> Did someone say 3x18650 M4?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I blew an MN60 awhile back with three fully charged AW IMR16340's. Good luck trying to run an MN60 on three 18650's.


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## Monocrom (Jan 9, 2014)

tobrien said:


> gotcha, thanks! but even if we take OTF on the LF bulb, it should probably be ~500 lumens right?



No. Rough estimate is that out the front numbers are going to be about 2/3 of stated emitter lumens. 

So that means that the output from the Lumens Factory lamp is (once again, rough estimate) about 367 lumens.


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## tobrien (Jan 10, 2014)

kelmo said:


> I have both and it has been awhile since I ran my M4/12ZM side by side but I do believe both beams are roughly equivalent in output when white wall hunting. The LF bulb puts out a more round beam as I recall. My only gripe about the LF product is the tolerances on the lamp posts. Sometimes you have to sand them down to get them to fit in the reflector assembly or SC2 spares carrier.
> 
> kelmo


ah okay, thanks for the input! I can't recall if I paid more than the MN61's MSRP for the LF bulb, but oh well. Thanks bud!


ampdude said:


> I blew an MN60 awhile back with three fully charged AW IMR16340's. Good luck trying to run an MN60 on three 18650's.


according to the link in his sig:
_M4 with SW01 Fatty and KT-4 CB with Nailbender Cree XP-G R4 Flux 5B2 Tint 1-lvl reg. drive 4-16v. max. Cerakote Armor Black_

it may be different now, but I'm assuming that may be it? I dunno lol


Monocrom said:


> No. Rough estimate is that out the front numbers are going to be about 2/3 of stated emitter lumens.
> 
> So that means that the output from the Lumens Factory lamp is (once again, rough estimate) about 367 lumens.



okay gotcha, thank you! so now we're still left with 15 min runtime. If I had to guess here, knowing that the output on both bulbs is pretty much similar now, maybe SF is quoting "tactical runtime" and LF's runtime is till the cells are totally dead you think?


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## Monocrom (Jan 10, 2014)

That could be a real possibility. But I just honestly haven't run any of my LF bulbs long enough to measure.


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## tobrien (Feb 23, 2014)

something I've noticed about my M4 versus M6: the M4 seems to have a tighter beam, at least with the LF HO-M4A. I haven't yet tried an MN61 because when I bought this "new old stock" M4, the MN61 didn't work, _but_ I swear this M4 has a tighter beam than my M6 with the MN21.

Has anyone else noticed this? Or is it like how it is with LEDs in that the smaller the emitting surface/area, the tighter the beam?

edit: I do realize they both use the KT4 head, but I can't be going crazy here. is it because the MN21 has that frosted appearance to it? maybe that diffuses the beam?


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## kelmo (Feb 23, 2014)

tobrien said:


> something I've noticed about my M4 versus M6: the M4 seems to have a tighter beam, at least with the LF HO-M4A. I haven't yet tried an MN61 because when I bought this "new old stock" M4, the MN61 didn't work, _but_ I swear this M4 has a tighter beam than my M6 with the MN21.
> 
> Has anyone else noticed this? Or is it like how it is with LEDs in that the smaller the emitting surface/area, the tighter the beam?
> 
> edit: I do realize they both use the KT4 head, but I can't be going crazy here. is it because the MN21 has that frosted appearance to it? maybe that diffuses the beam?



Place both lamp assemblies side by side. if the filament heights are not equal as measured from the base of the lamp post that maybe the answer.

kelmo


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## tobrien (Feb 23, 2014)

kelmo said:


> Place both lamp assemblies side by side. if the filament heights are not equal as measured from the base of the lamp post that maybe the answer.
> 
> kelmo


not too much of a difference as far as I'm able to tell:
(MN21 -- Lumens Factory HO-M4A -- MN60)


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## kelmo (Feb 23, 2014)

Could it be an optical illusion? The MN60 throws an oval beam and the LF HO-M4A beam is nice and round.


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## fivemega (Feb 23, 2014)

kelmo said:


> Could it be an optical illusion? The MN60 throws an oval beam and the LF HO-M4A beam is nice and round.


*Size and shape of beam may vary depending on length of filament, width of filament, winding of filament and position of filament to focal point of reflector.
It's also good to know that each reflector may have slight less or more texture compare to other reflectors even if they are all KT-4 and visually looks same.

My final word is: NOTHING CREATED SAME*


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## kelmo (Feb 24, 2014)

I love this place!


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## jamesmtl514 (Feb 25, 2014)

I have noticed that too.
M6 hotspot is tighter than M4.

Both are great!


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## tobrien (Feb 25, 2014)

fivemega said:


> *Size and shape of beam may vary depending on length of filament, width of filament, winding of filament and position of filament to focal point of reflector.
> It's also good to know that each reflector may have slight less or more texture compare to other reflectors even if they are all KT-4 and visually looks same.
> 
> My final word is: NOTHING CREATED SAME*


thanks for the explanation FM!


jamesmtl514 said:


> I have noticed that too.
> M6 hotspot is tighter than M4.
> 
> Both are great!



do you mean that the other way around? My M4's hotspot is significantly tighter than my M6...


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## python (Feb 25, 2014)

I love this place (2)
Thanks for the explanation FM! (2)


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## jamesmtl514 (Mar 5, 2014)

Let me clarify. From tightest to widest.
MN60, MN15, MN21, MN61


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## cland72 (Mar 5, 2014)

Interesting, I wouldn't have thought the MN60 would be the tightest of those. My money would've been on the MN15.


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## ampdude (Mar 5, 2014)

I'm replying to this thread so I remember myself to check this out. I'm going to examine the filament of the MN60 next to the MN15. I think the MN60 has a larger bulb though and is more efficient than the MN15, though they are both very efficient compared to their HOLA counterparts.


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## fivemega (Mar 5, 2014)

jamesmtl514 said:


> Let me clarify. From tightest to widest.
> MN60, MN15, MN21, MN61


*I hope above experience is based on single and same head/reflector in different hosts with mentioned bulbs or simply swap the heads and redo the test.* 



ampdude said:


> I think the MN60 has a larger bulb though and is more efficient than the MN15, though they are both very efficient compared to their HOLA counterparts.


*Why do you think some of mentioned bulb has better efficiency than others? 
Each bulb is designed to work with different voltage and configuration.*


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## tobrien (Mar 20, 2014)

I keep coming back to this thread because the M4 is just such a great light. Best yet, the OP did an awesome job with a fair and balanced approach in comparing the M4 to the M6.

I love my M4.

p.s.: beyond a Malkoff MD60 or Lumens Factory bulb, an 18mm bore, a McClicky, or a Ti bezel, what mods can be done to an M4 (asking out of curiosity)?


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## cland72 (Mar 20, 2014)

Not really a "mod", but I know a few people like using a MN15 with 2x17670.


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## tobrien (Mar 20, 2014)

cland72 said:


> Not really a "mod", but I know a few people like using a MN15 with 2x17670.



I never knew about that one, thanks man! I'm assuming, due to bulb size, the MN15 beam is tighter than the MN60?


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## cland72 (Mar 20, 2014)

tobrien said:


> I never knew about that one, thanks man! I'm assuming, due to bulb size, the MN15 beam is tighter than the MN60?



Yep, that's the word on the street. Just make sure you keep a dummy cell with you in case you need to switch back to primaries...


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## tobrien (Mar 20, 2014)

cland72 said:


> Yep, that's the word on the street. Just make sure you keep a dummy cell with you in case you need to switch back to primaries...



good thought!


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## Darien (Mar 21, 2014)

tobrien said:


> p.s.: beyond a Malkoff MD60 or Lumens Factory bulb, an 18mm bore, a McClicky, or a Ti bezel, what mods can be done to an M4 (asking out of curiosity)?



No mod needed for this;
I haven't tried it yet, but thought about throwing an N62 in mine, kind of like a 12ZM knockoff. Wish I could find a few more of these bulbs.:shakehead


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## tobrien (Mar 21, 2014)

Darien said:


> No mod needed for this;
> I haven't tried it yet, but thought about throwing an N62 in mine, kind of like a 12ZM knockoff. Wish I could find a few more of these bulbs.:shakehead



Do you think/know if the bulb would drop right in and fit correctly? 500 lumens OTF for the N62 bulb right (based on Google results)?

that'd be amazing IMO


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## Darien (Mar 21, 2014)

You gonna make me open one up and find out! :devil:


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## ampdude (Mar 21, 2014)

AFAIK the N62 was made for the non-shock resistant 2.5" SRT and 3" Turboheads. I doubt they will work in the KT4, but they might work in the KT1/KT2 turboheads. If you find they work in either, please let us know! I've never experimented with the N62.


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## cenz (Mar 21, 2014)

ampdude said:


> AFAIK the N62 was made for the non-shock resistant 2.5" SRT and 3" Turboheads. I doubt they will work in the KT4, but they might work in the KT1/KT2 turboheads. If you find they work in either, please let us know! I've never experimented with the N62.



N62 is not really perfect on 2.5" SRTH from my observe, having center dark hole at ~1M, but 15~20% sharper beam pattern (compare to KT1/2).

KT1/2 provides more soft beam pattern and no dark hole, but less thrower than SRTH. (I tried these 2 heads with MN16, the differernt is quite obvious.)

btw, I have no KT-4 and T62, so I don't know what is the perfect TH is for N62 (I think 3"T is the best cos of diameter..)


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## Darien (Mar 25, 2014)

Okay, I finally got around to trying the N62 in my stock M4 with 4 fresh CR123A cells. I can now positively say that it works great with the KT4 head and it is bright with a very round beam. Perfect in my eyes. Measured 3.75a at the tail which is pushing the primaries at roughy 2.5c. The reason for not being considered acceptable for usage in the shock resistant (KT4) head is because according to "Size 15's"; the outer spring is slightly shorter than the inner which could cause loss of contact. I can see the difference although not much. I carefully slightly stretched the outer spring and while running the bulb gave sharp blows against my hand with no loss of contact. Weapon mounted may be another story. 

If anyone finds a hoard of N62's I'll be glad to help reduce your count :devil:


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## cenz (Mar 25, 2014)

Darien said:


> Okay, I finally got around to trying the N62 in my stock M4 with 4 fresh CR123A cells. I can now positively say that it works great with the KT4 head and it is bright with a very round beam. Perfect in my eyes. Measured 3.75a at the tail which is pushing the primaries at roughy 2.5c. The reason for not being considered acceptable for usage in the shock resistant (KT4) head is because according to "Size 15's"; the outer spring is slightly shorter than the inner which could cause loss of contact. I can see the difference although not much. I carefully slightly stretched the outer spring and while running the bulb gave sharp blows against my hand with no loss of contact. Weapon mounted may be another story.
> 
> If anyone finds a hoard of N62's I'll be glad to help reduce your count :devil:



N62 is a beautiful lamp, sexy beam and current :devil: , which the beam quality is over mn21.


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## tobrien (Mar 25, 2014)

Darien said:


> Okay, I finally got around to trying the N62 in my stock M4 with 4 fresh CR123A cells. I can now positively say that it works great with the KT4 head and it is bright with a very round beam. Perfect in my eyes. Measured 3.75a at the tail which is pushing the primaries at roughy 2.5c. The reason for not being considered acceptable for usage in the shock resistant (KT4) head is because according to "Size 15's"; the outer spring is slightly shorter than the inner which could cause loss of contact. I can see the difference although not much. I carefully slightly stretched the outer spring and while running the bulb gave sharp blows against my hand with no loss of contact. Weapon mounted may be another story.
> 
> If anyone finds a hoard of N62's I'll be glad to help reduce your count :devil:



thank you for this!


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## stienke (Mar 25, 2014)

Or install a KL6 head on a M4, damm sexy...... , now I reed this I'm after N62 bulbs


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## MBentz (Mar 25, 2014)

I recently sold my two M4s and have since been regretting it. Last night I was on eBay and found a sweet deal for $160 for what appears to be a lightly used, older M4. It has no crenelations, however it does have the newer logo that came after the crosshair. It appears to have the old packaging. I Googled but didn't come up with too much information about the differences between the M4s.

Can anyone identify or provide any information for this particular M4? I hope the link works, if not please let me know.


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## tobrien (Apr 13, 2014)

cland72 said:


> Yep, that's the word on the street. Just make sure you keep a dummy cell with you in case you need to switch back to primaries...


cland72, thanks to you I bought an MN15 and it came in yesterday's mail... holy cow this does throw nicely! The ellipse-like beam really works nicely with such a throw.

I do actually have it running on 3x primaries and a dummy cell right now (when I wanted to try it out really bad last night, none of my 17670s were at the same charge level) and it's a champ.

IMO the MN15 is nicer for longer throw than the MN60 because of its concentrated ellipse hotspot, but the MN60 is amazingly awesome too.

Thanks man!


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## cland72 (Apr 13, 2014)

Glad to help!


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