# Help me think: 3rd world country lighting and charging solutions



## peripatew (Nov 1, 2015)

Greetings! 

Long-story short, I'm living in SE Asia and have the opportunity for someone to bring me some new gear. I'll be moving to a new location in the near future where power is much less reliable, and I'll be out "in the country" a lot more. So I'd like some help thinking through a few thing:*Battery Choice*, *New FlashLight*, and *Remote/Backup Charging Options*.

*Battery*
What's the best battery platform for me? I'm _really_ leaning towards AA/AAA. I already have several lights that use these (headlamps, ThruNite Ti3, Sunwayman v11R, LED panels), and they are the easiest to find here. Though most places just have cheap cheap AA/AAA's, finding some duracells is going to be hit and miss for me. I do have a small stash of CR123A's for my v11R, but will fall back to the AA adapter when those run out. I know that battery choice will decide what lights I have to choose from. I'm thinking of picking up a big number of Eneloop AA's and AAA's. I'm open to the idea of bigger, better batteries, but would need some convincing. I've NEVER seen any battery here "better" than a CR123A, and they are about $10-15 each when I can find them. That's one reason why I'm a bit hesitant to move to something like 18650. I could buy a ton of rechargable ones, but that's more of an upfront investment than the eneloops, which I'd need to get anyways for my other lights.
*
New Brighter Flashlight*
I want a brighter light that has a decent throw. Right now my v11R is my brightest light. It's perfectly adequate for EDC usage where I currently live, but when I end up in a much more remote area, I'd like to have a light that's up for the task. I don't want something that's pure spot, nor do I have an ideal distance in mind. Something of an all around light would be most practical for me. 

I'm _really_ liking the looks of the new *NiteCore EA81*. The turbo brightness is attractive, though I know I should think of it as a lower lumen light. It's brightness settings seem to be well balanced, and I really like the idea of it running off of just 4 AA's in a pinch (though probably would never use it). This isn't nearly as bright as the TM26 or similar lights, but seems to be the best multi-AA light out there right now. 

*Remote/Backup Charging
*This goes a bit beyond flashlights, but wanted to post for some feedback on charging systems. (I've got 220v where I'm at) Most of the time I'll have access to adequate power, though loosing power for 8 hours at a time will be common, potentially up to a few days_ in daily life. _But I'd like to be prepared for the worst case scenario. 

Generator
We'll likely have a small generator at home for essentials, I doubt we'll be able to afford a proper solar setup. Vehicle DC and AC inverter
I'll usually have my truck with me, so I've got DC power and a 110v AC inverter.

Solar
I'm checking out a local solar company today in hopes of finding a simple, portable solution. But I'm a bit doubtful. I'm looking at ordering the folding Anker 14w or RAVpower 15w panel from Amazon to be brought over the with new light and batteries. *So this means I'll need a USB AA/AAA charger.* I've got a few power packs for charging our phones on the go, so I'll use on of these to store power gained from solar. I've searched around and seen that there are a few options, but none that seem to rise to the top as the best. I'm looking at the SunJack or the Goal Zero Guide 10. (I have full sun most of the day where I'm at year round)

"other"
I'm very interested in a car battery based power pack similar to the ArkPak or the Thunder Weekender (or Goal Zero Yeti 1250), but they are expensive, and would be hard for me to acquire. But would offer more flexibility than just charging batteries. When out traveling I'm based out of my truck, so having a dual battery system would be ideal, and one of these would be great. I've seen several DIY guides, which I might look into, I'd just have to order most of the parts and put it together myself. 

SO.... sorry to be long winded. But wanted to be thorough to get the best feedback. THANKS. If I left something out, let me know.


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## LetThereBeLight! (Nov 1, 2015)

peripatew said:


> Greetings!
> 
> Long-story short, I'm living in SE Asia and have the opportunity for someone to bring me some new gear. I'll be moving to a new location in the near future where power is much less reliable, and I'll be out "in the country" a lot more. So I'd like some help thinking through a few thing:*Battery Choice*, *New FlashLight*, and *Remote/Backup Charging Options*.
> 
> ...




For general purposes, check out the WakaWaka Power-- a solar powered light & charger in one-- you'll be impressed.

Check out the smaller lithium ion & LiFO4 batteries at aspectsolar.com & their portable solar panels of varying sizes.

Also check out suntactics.com for their products.

For the heck of it also check out the Luci Lantern.

Good luck to you!

- LetThereBeLight!


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## peripatew (Nov 1, 2015)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> For general purposes, check out the WakaWaka Power-- a solar powered light & charger in one-- you'll be impressed.
> 
> Check out the smaller lithium ion & LiFO4 batteries at aspectsolar.com & their portable solar panels of varying sizes.
> 
> ...



Thanks for all those links! A local company has a similar product for around $15. But it's more of a night "dome light". I'm looking for a traditional flashlight that can offer more output than the solar lights. Perhaps as a final backup. 

My main want is a powerful flashlight, but I'm trying to think through the practical ways I can charge in the field and in an emergency.

In terms of solar panels, the RAV 15w seems to get the best reviews and power output (wirecutter), and even if it was a bit subpar, the price is a great entry point for me as a backup option.


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## Tre_Asay (Nov 2, 2015)

maybe get a flashlight that can use both 2x cr123a and 1x 18650 / 16650.
I don't have much experience with this sort of stuff but I like the idea of the 18650 flashlights because I can have just two charged 18650's with me and have weeks of constant light on low / moonlight modes and while there is some self discharge it is not something to really worry about as long as the light is used enough to remember to recharge every month or so.
Also they tend to be able to put out 800+ lumens on high for over 2 hours with decent batteries. The icing on the cake is that they can take cr123 batteries if needed as an emergency power supply.
I am looking at a Thrunite Archer 2c v2 as it has all of the features that I want but the Nitecore P12 also looks like a contender. 
I don't think that you are going to find the best flashlights using AA/ AAA batteries, just my opinion I don't like using the 3xAAA lights for the fact that they don't exactly have the most battery-volume ratio.


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## more_vampires (Nov 2, 2015)

> I'm very interested in a *car battery based power pack* similar to the ArkPak or the Thunder Weekender (or Goal Zero Yeti 1250), but they are expensive, and would be hard for me to acquire. But would offer more flexibility than just charging batteries. When out traveling I'm based out of my truck, so having a dual battery system would be ideal, and one of these would be great. I've seen several DIY guides, which I might look into, I'd just have to order most of the parts and put it together myself.


What I have for bulk emergency battery at home is a vehicle battery with the "cigarette adapter" plug hooked to the battery terminals.

From there, I plug in a 12v car USB 2-port outlet. Now I can charge all my USB stuff.

I also have the 12v cig adapter for my hobby chargers so I can charge that stuff as well.

As you mentioned solar you could go from the panel to the solar controller, from there to the battery in addition of the other stuff I mentioned.

Turnkey solutions tend to be expensive. You can just piece it together with parts and probably save money.


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## Poppy (Nov 2, 2015)

Once I read that you'll have your truck with you most of the time, the decision of which battery platform to standardize on became a no-brainer for me. I would standardize on the 18650. Estimate how many I would need on a heavy use day, and how many days I will typically be away from an electrical source (including my truck), and how many days I might be away in an unusual circumstance. Then get enough 18650 to cover those bases, and if there is an extreme difference between typical, and unusual, then I'd get a solar set up for back-up power.

You mentioned an increased initial outlay to go 18650, that however is not all that true.
An 18650 is about $10 and has about 3 times the capacity of a 2500ma duraloop. 
Duraloops can be had for about $10 for four. Therefore the 18650 is only slightly more expensive than the duraloops.

AA duraloops have about 3 times the capacity of AAA duraloops and the AAAs cost the same! Therefore.... they are out of the question (for me).

Rechargeables are undoubtedly the way to go, because, while they may be unobtainable, they won't need to be replaced for four years, or more.

I prefer to use single cell lights to multi cell lights. With multi cell lights you should use a digital voltmeter to match your batteries. OTOH a single cell light requires... put a battery in there and go! 

Let's say a week long excursion with one battery change a day of 18650s, you would need 14 batteries.
42 AA's
128 AAAs

They are only some of the reasons why I would go with 18650s

FWIW I agree with the sentiments of more_vampires, and Tre_Asay.


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## bykfixer (Nov 2, 2015)

Being in a "3rd world country" tells me the markup on items is tremendous at best. And the better the (as in the demand) the more the markup.

You say you can get plenty of eneloops. Nice. 

How about fuel for that vehicle? As in charging stuff with an invertor will run down the battery, so you'll need to run the engine....

Now if I ever find myself in your situation I'd be looking for efficient output vs pure, battery sucking lumens. 

A tail stander would be a must, and one that uses as few of my precious batteries as possible at one time. 

My 123's would be stashed with my coins and other precious commodities. 
I'd be looking at items that use easily found batteries. And if AA are easy to find yet do not cost a lot...single AA lights like the Klarus P1a that are bright enough to read by on low, yet gives you several dark nights on a single battery...

and the high/ low is mechanical in nature, the shell is military grade and waterproof...very reliable when it really matters. Plus Klarus is a kinda unknown name so mark up shouldn't be as bad as the more famous makers.


I like my Coast HP1 for it's battery sipping 220+/- lumens with a nice spot for a couple hundred feet, or a table lamp room lighter on tail stand mode. 
Those mini-mag LED's are battery sippers as well. 

And maybe have one night busting light for the times when only sunshine bright will do. 
One that uses your (probably expensive) 18650 or 123's wisely. 

But what brands you can get? Only you know that. But reliability should be your main concern.
I'd say Streamlight for it's durability at a much lower price than say...Sure Fire etc.


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## Poppy (Nov 2, 2015)

peripatew said:


> Greetings!
> 
> Long-story short, I'm living in SE Asia and *have the opportunity for someone to bring me some new gear.* I'll be moving to a new location in the near future where power is much less reliable, and I'll be out "in the country" a lot more. <SNIP>
> I've NEVER seen any battery here "better" than a CR123A, and they are about $10-15 each when I can find them. That's one reason why I'm a bit hesitant to move to something like 18650. I could buy a ton of rechargable ones, but that's more of an upfront investment than the eneloops, which I'd need to get anyways for my other lights.
> <SNIP>


bykfixer,
It seems that you missed the first sentence. 

Someone can BRING him 18650s, or RCR123s, or AA eneloops, etc.

While the AA batteries there are obtainable, they are real crap. Not as good as a carbon zinc battery, at least that is what I have been told.


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## jmwking (Nov 2, 2015)

A question for solar - will you be somewhere with sunlight? I live where the sun don't shine, or at least doesn't hit the ground - too many mature trees. Solar stuff really doesn't work here.

-jk


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## peripatew (Nov 2, 2015)

jmwking said:


> A question for solar - will you be somewhere with sunlight? I live where the sun don't shine, or at least doesn't hit the ground - too many mature trees. Solar stuff really doesn't work here.
> 
> -jk



We have unending sun . So I think solar is a decent option. But again, only as a backup to my backup. If I decided to go for something like the NiteCore EA81, which takes 8 AA's, I think relying on solar would be less than ideal. But in that situation, I think I'd be sticking with the lowest mode possible, unless I needed to throw some lumens. But, even an efficient 15W panel would get the job done. In my mind, if I would need to rely on the solar panel, I'd need to be mobile. So having something portable vs powerful would be best. If it's big and bulky I wouldn't have it with me.


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## peripatew (Nov 2, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> Being in a "3rd world country" tells me the markup on items is tremendous at best. And the better the (as in the demand) the more the markup.
> 
> You say you can get plenty of eneloops. Nice.
> 
> ...



Thanks for thoroughly thinking this through! Great recommendations, I'm going to research them.

In terms of availability here, there's really nothing. Just super cheap Chinese knock offs, a lot of which use C or D's. But I am able to have things brought over occasionally. That's why I'm posting for help, as I have an opportunity in less than 2 weeks for a small delivery. 

I feel pretty good about the lights I already have in terms of efficient single battery lights. But I don't have anything that would be useful for producing a large amount of light. I'd like to have something in the search/rescue/protection category for when things hit the fan. The roads here are terrible as well, so several times already I've been out in the country far later into the evening that I had planned because of difficult terrain. I found myself wanting a big torch when I needed to step away from the vehicle. I have some extra lighting on the vehicle itself too.

So, if I was to switch to 18650's, in looking at lights like the NiteCore TM16 or TM06s, etc... But, having to get 8 18650's seems expensive (I want a full backup set), since I'll be needed the Eneloops anyways for other lights. 

I don't mind the investment, but in terms of my situation, I don't know if I'd need the power of something like the TM16 more than what the EA81 can provide.


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## bykfixer (Nov 2, 2015)

Poppy said:


> bykfixer,
> It seems that you missed the first sentence.
> 
> Someone can BRING him 18650s, or RCR123s, or AA eneloops, etc.
> ...



Guess you missed the part about hesitant to go 18650

not trying to argue poppy...really but:
He's asking what lights to request as he seems to have decided what batteries are best for his situation...not yours n mine. Had he not said he was hesitant to go with those I'd handily agree...but either way.....

Yeah in a perfect world I'd say if there's about $200 to splurge a Malkoff Houndog Turnkey kit would be in order with a spare 18650. 
Hi/Lo for battery sipping, big ole nice n energy packed battery inside a small light with a not so big, yet mega brite head when need be. And a great charger. 

But in some 3rd world countries folks kill each other over toilet paper...so would it be wise to have 
such a nice flashlight around....

My only question is:
"What's a 2nd world country?"
It seems there are 'developed' and '3rd world'...


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## Threfeathers (Nov 2, 2015)

Thank you, I travel a lot and to some very smelly places, I appreciate this article


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## SA Condor (Nov 2, 2015)

Hello!


I live in a third world country too. The rare occasion I can find a Cr123, they cost around the $15 like where you live. I can get Duracells, but only in the cities and man! They are stupid expensive too! What is widely available are junk junk junk AAs. And as far as lights are concerned, they are ridiculously expensive and JUNK too! So I feel for you!


Everything I have has been brought to me or mailed via 'care package'. 


As far as Battery choice, I'd hold onto the small lights you have and go ahead and get the Eneloops. Keep those batteries and lights as backups and/or daily pocket carry. That being said, I would not be afraid to venture into the 18650 world. I 'risked' it, and I'll never turn back. Honestly, there's no need to buy a ton of them. Their capacity is awesome and if you use the light on a lower setting, you can get some crazy good runtimes!! I personally went with an Olight S30R II for my wife and I. You can use the light and slap it on its USB based charger base and it will keep the battery topped off. You can keep a spare (or a couple, IF you really feel the need) battery with it and your good to go for a long time. The really nice thing about USB charging is that it allows it to be charged via a wall socket, a computer, a solar panel (goal zero), your vehicle, and a battery backup generator (like goal zero yeti). So it's got super runtime, can be very bright if need be, and is versatile for charging. I risked it and am very happy with my choice.


I'm a fan of Goal Zero as that's the brand I went with. I've got a switch 10 kit, a yeti 400 kit (I really wanted the 1250 but it was too much$$), and a Lantern 250. As I mentioned before, I can charge the Olights via those. Our power is less then reliable too, so I understand!! Sometimes I charge in the vehicle, sometimes via wall socket, and many times via my Yeti 400.

Oh! I forgot to add that the Olight S30R II is a decent combo of throw and flood. Pretty balanced light.


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## bykfixer (Nov 2, 2015)

May I ask peripatew,

Are you on a mission trip?


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## SA Condor (Nov 2, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> May I ask peripatew,
> 
> Are you on a mission trip?



I don't know about him, but we are on a 'permanent' mission trip! We've been in Bolivia for almost 8 years!


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## peripatew (Nov 2, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> May I ask peripatew,
> 
> Are you on a mission trip?



We are missionaries here yes. But are committed here as long as we are needed. Our organization works with victims of child sexual exploitation here, and our family specifically with prevention and reintegration programs.


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## SA Condor (Nov 2, 2015)

peripatew said:


> We are missionaries here yes. But are committed here as long as we are needed. Our organization works with victims of child sexual exploitation here, and our family specifically with prevention and reintegration programs.



Nice! There's a huge need for that type of ministry there. 

We work with deaf people here.


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## peripatew (Nov 2, 2015)

SA Condor said:


> Hello!
> 
> 
> I live in a third world country too. The rare occasion I can find a Cr123, they cost around the $15 like where you live. I can get Duracells, but only in the cities and man! They are stupid expensive too! What is widely available are junk junk junk AAs. And as far as lights are concerned, they are ridiculously expensive and JUNK too! So I feel for you!
> ...



Thanks for the feedback! I LOVE goal zero stuff, but the price has been prohibitive for me. And I like piecing together my own kit. There are some DIY posts about building a Yeti 1250, so I'm considering that. But not sure I have the time/resources at the moment. 

I'll have to research USB chargeable lights some more. There are lots of USB AA chargers which was one reason I was leaning that way, but hadn't thought of lights that have this integrated. Are there any 2x18650 that have this?


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## SA Condor (Nov 2, 2015)

peripatew said:


> Thanks for the feedback! I LOVE goal zero stuff, but the price has been prohibitive for me. And I like piecing together my own kit. There are some DIY posts about building a Yeti 1250, so I'm considering that. But not sure I have the time/resources at the moment.
> 
> I'll have to research USB chargeable lights some more. There are lots of USB AA chargers which was one reason I was leaning that way, but hadn't thought of lights that have this integrated. Are there any 2x18650 that have this?



Yeah, a supporting church got the Yeti for us, it was a huge blessing. I'd still love to get a 1250 someday, but I think realistically a 150 would be a great pairing to the 400. FYI, my daughters are NOT a fan of the Goal Zero . . . When the power goes out, school should stop . . . not anymore!! The Yeti keeps them going 

As far as a 2x 18650 light, I'm not sure. We just each have the Olight. I'll be following along hear to see what anyone else might suggest. Your circumstances are very similar to my own!


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## Poppy (Nov 2, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> Guess you missed the part about hesitant to go 18650
> 
> not trying to argue poppy...really but:
> He's asking what lights to request as he seems to have decided what batteries are best for his situation...not yours n mine. Had he not said he was hesitant to go with those I'd handily agree...but either way.....
> ...


bykfixer,
We're on the same page, but interpreted this differently.


> I'm thinking of picking up a big number of Eneloop AA's and AAA's. *I'm open to the idea of bigger, better batteries, but would need some convincing.* I've NEVER seen any battery here "better" than a CR123A, and they are about $10-15 each when I can find them. That's one reason why I'm a bit hesitant to move to something like 18650.


I read this to mean that he has never been exposed to the benefits of an 18650 battery, so he doesn't know how much better they are. Also... he is thinking that if the CR123s cost $10-15 EACH, one can only imagine how much an 18650 would cost! 

peripatew,
You can get CR123s online for about $1 each. Last year I bought a ten pack at batteryjunction.
I'd suggest that you get 3-4 RCR123s for your sunwayman They're rechargeable, and are only about $3-4 each.
That light can be your EDC, or back-up, or both 

While you can get a 2000 lumen light, I wouldn't. If you happen to crank it up, you can go through a set of batteries, in 1 1/2 hours, with most lights. 

I'd suggest that you get two lights, a convoy S2+ driven at 1400ma, and a convoy C8 with an XM-L2 driven at 2800ma. 
The S2+ @ 1400ma


low: 35 -40 lumen: 40 hours.
mid: about 200 lumen: 6 hours. 
max: about 450- 500 lumen: 2.5 hours

The C8 @ 2800ma will give about 180% output for about half the time. So for example you'll get about 900 lumens for ~ 75 minutes on max.

Now... why two different lights?
Different lights for different purposes.
The S2+ is a nice general purpose light that has a broad hot-spot and generous spill which is nice for close up work and for general lighting out to 70 feet or so. Driven at only 1400ma, you get a nice balance of performance and run-time.

The C8 is a larger light, with a larger head and more focused hot spot. More of a thrower, which makes it not a general all purpose light, it's not great for up close work. It has a shorter run-time than the S2+ but it is pretty comparable to the Fenix TK35, and Thrunite Tn11 in throw.

Each, the S2 and the C8 are single cell 18650s. One can be a back-up for the other, and either can be considered a spare cell carier. Lumens are additive, so if you need more light that either light can supply, you can use them both simultaneously. You'll get a nice spill in the foreground, and a decent amount of reach.


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## bykfixer (Nov 2, 2015)

peripatew said:


> We are missionaries here yes. But are committed here as long as we are needed. Our organization works with victims of child sexual exploitation here, and our family specifically with prevention and reintegration programs.



Pm sent


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## LetThereBeLight! (Nov 2, 2015)

peripatew said:


> Thanks for all those links! A local company has a similar product for around $15. But it's more of a night "dome light". I'm looking for a traditional flashlight that can offer more output than the solar lights. Perhaps as a final backup.
> 
> My main want is a powerful flashlight, but I'm trying to think through the practical ways I can charge in the field and in an emergency.
> 
> In terms of solar panels, the RAV 15w seems to get the best reviews and power output (wirecutter), and even if it was a bit subpar, the price is a great entry point for me as a backup option.



Thank you for your courteous reply! To charge in the field, if it's a small device, the WakaWaka Power can do that if you check its specs. Unfortunately, the Luci Lantern lacks the capacity to charge devices. I suggest that while out in the field you also carry two backups (even if just spare batteries to your lights) with you.

Lastly, if you email Camille from WakaWaka (I forget his last name), you could describe your mission and he could likely send you WakaWaka Powers because when others here in First World countries buy one, it funds the purchase of a second which Camille sends at no charge to those countries. This assumes you have some need for a smaller device, as you research the bigger ones.


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## peripatew (Nov 3, 2015)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> Thank you for your courteous reply! To charge in the field, if it's a small device, the WakaWaka Power can do that if you check its specs. Unfortunately, the Luci Lantern lacks the capacity to charge devices. I suggest that while out in the field you also carry two backups (even if just spare batteries to your lights) with you.
> 
> Lastly, if you email Camille from WakaWaka (I forget his last name), you could describe your mission and he could likely send you WakaWaka Powers because when others here in First World countries buy one, it funds the purchase of a second which Camille sends at no charge to those countries. This assumes you have some need for a smaller device, as you research the bigger ones.



Thanks for the great idea! I think my need for this type of light is limited, but the poverty in the country-side here in Cambodia is dramatic and wide-spread. For the families that we work with, this might be an ideal first step. I'll email them once I have a bit more data gathered. 

Ideally, is like to help provide more sustainable power for the small communities, beyond what these small units can provide. But that's a much in depth research project, though I've already got a few emails sent out for some donation requests to get started building a demo kit.


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## peripatew (Nov 3, 2015)

SA Condor said:


> Nice! There's a huge need for that type of ministry there.
> 
> We work with deaf people here.



Have you found need for a larger light? Perhaps it's the gear-head side of me that's attracted to lights like the EA81, or even the massive NiteCore TM16.

Your suggested light seems very practical, something that fills the gap between what I currently have, and what I'd like (a light with a lots of throwy lumens).

If I didn't have my v11R, I think I'd definitely pick one or two up. The USB charger makes it reeeeeally appealing.


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## bykfixer (Nov 3, 2015)

A Coast HP7 with some eneloops headed your way sir.
Should help with run times when you need all 360.


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## TheShadowGuy (Nov 3, 2015)

Since you are invested in Eneloops already and continue to amass a collection of them, at least for now I would recommend just getting a charger that charges both NiMH and Li-Ions well so you can easily make the upgrade later. The Nitecore D2 Digicharger is the cheapest well-reviewed one I know of. If you can only get a limited supply of items each trip, I would assume you want to get the most out of each shipment. If you get a charger like that now, you can still get the ton of Eneloops you need and maybe get Li-Ions in a future pack.

As far as charging goes, I've seen power packs here that have an emergency crank in addition to regular wall charging. It's not efficient, but it would get the job done. A solar charger like the Anker one (I just got one of those 14W units actually) would work well for charging devices from a USB port, but you would need something a bit more robust to make a full system out of. A larger portable panel in the 50W range, a controller, an inverter, and a quality deep cycle battery will set you back quite a bit, but seems ideal for your purpose since you could then add more batteries or panels later, charge or run standard outlet devices (other battery chargers, laptops, what have ye). I don't know prices for where you are at or for where your care package is from, but I've seen some panels for under $100, controllers for under $40, and inverters are about $30.

The EA81 is a nice light but that's a lot of cells. I don't know the 8xAA format too well unfortunately, but I've heard nice things about that light. Just as another suggestion, you could get a 1000 lumen pop can style light like the Thrunite TN4A, which is pretty much half. Half the lumens, half the cells, half the price. Maybe in the future you could pick up an 18650 thrower like the Olight M3XS-UT Javelot if you pick up some 18650 cells down the line.


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## peripatew (Nov 3, 2015)

TheShadowGuy said:


> Since you are invested in Eneloops already and continue to amass a collection of them, at least for now I would recommend just getting a charger that charges both NiMH and Li-Ions well so you can easily make the upgrade later. The Nitecore D2 Digicharger is the cheapest well-reviewed one I know of. If you can only get a limited supply of items each trip, I would assume you want to get the most out of each shipment. If you get a charger like that now, you can still get the ton of Eneloops you need and maybe get Li-Ions in a future pack.
> 
> As far as charging goes, I've seen power packs here that have an emergency crank in addition to regular wall charging. It's not efficient, but it would get the job done. A solar charger like the Anker one (I just got one of those 14W units actually) would work well for charging devices from a USB port, but you would need something a bit more robust to make a full system out of. A larger portable panel in the 50W range, a controller, an inverter, and a quality deep cycle battery will set you back quite a bit, but seems ideal for your purpose since you could then add more batteries or panels later, charge or run standard outlet devices (other battery chargers, laptops, what have ye). I don't know prices for where you are at or for where your care package is from, but I've seen some panels for under $100, controllers for under $40, and inverters are about $30.
> 
> The EA81 is a nice light but that's a lot of cells. I don't know the 8xAA format too well unfortunately, but I've heard nice things about that light. Just as another suggestion, you could get a 1000 lumen pop can style light like the Thrunite TN4A, which is pretty much half. Half the lumens, half the cells, half the price. Maybe in the future you could pick up an 18650 thrower like the Olight M3XS-UT Javelot if you pick up some 18650 cells down the line.



Good thoughts on the NiteCore charger, though I might do the D4 for charging more at once. They have a 12VDC adapter so that will be good. I was trying to find a USB charger for AA's, and there are a few cheap ones, but having the 12VDC will be doable.

I may get the new Anker 15w to try out. There are a few similar panels that do 12-18VDC also, though it seems that is aimed at laptops.

I think we'll likely work towards a simple solar setup, 50-100W with a car battery based base. The more I read about the ArkPak's and Thunderer the more I like them.

I found a local company that makes their own battery boxes for deep cycle, but it doesn't have the the same functionality or portability.


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## Poppy (Nov 4, 2015)

peripatew,
You came here with the question:


*What's the best battery platform for me? *
You seem to be focused on AA.
Here are the responses. 


Tre_Asay : I like the idea of the *18650 flashlights *because I can have just two charged 18650's with me and have weeks of constant light on low / moonlight modes


Poppy : Once I read that you'll have your truck with you most of the time, the decision of which battery platform to standardize on became a no-brainer for me. *I would standardize on the 18650*.


bykfixer : (speaking to Poppy) Guess you missed the part about hesitant to go 18650


not trying to argue poppy...really but:
He's asking what lights to request as he seems to have decided what batteries are best for his situation...not yours n mine. Had he not said he was hesitant to go with *18650s I'd handily agree*


SA Condor : As far as Battery choice, I'd hold onto the small lights you have and go ahead and get the Eneloops. Keep those batteries and lights as backups and/or daily pocket carry. That being said, I would not be afraid to *venture into the 18650 world. I 'risked' it, and I'll never turn back.*


TheShadowGuy : The EA81 is a nice light but that's a lot of cells. <SNIP> Maybe in the future you could *pick up an 18650 thrower *like the Olight M3XS-UT Javelot if you pick up some 18650 cells down the line.


Do you see a trend?

If you want to look at a big multipurpose light, you might want to take a look at the (although I already made my light pair recommendations, at less than $16 each, that'll save you lots of money for batteries/charger, and USB Battery banks)
Fenix TK51
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-6xCR123A)-Review-RUNTIMES-BEAMSHOTS-and-more!


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## peripatew (Nov 4, 2015)

Poppy said:


> peripatew,
> You came here with the question:
> 
> 
> ...



Haha. Thanks for summarizing it for me. I do seem hung up on the AA's for some reason.

Digging into some 3x and 4x 18650 lights.


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## peripatew (Nov 4, 2015)

Though, is there any issue flying with 18650's internationally?


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## bykfixer (Nov 4, 2015)

Maybe you can send him some 18650's poppy.


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## LedTed (Nov 4, 2015)

peripatew,

Re: Your Discussion points. 
*
Battery*
I recommend you consider keeping with AA batteries. And, have at least two flashlights which can utilize anything from 1.2 – 3.2 V. But, all the way up to 3.7 V would be better.
*
New Brighter Flashlight*
I understand the wanting and need for brightness. I still hope you consider runtime over brightness. A 2 X AA solution could get you both increased brightness and runtime.
*
Remote/Backup Charging*
As with a flashlight; two is one and one is none. Besides spare batteries, I recommend you have at least two charging options. You already mentioned solar. And, you already mentioned your truck. Have you considered adding a second battery to you truck? That second battery could be charged by your truck and used as an independent supply.

With your near future move and user name, I wonder if you are naturally nomadic. But, that's none of my business.

Best of luck in your new home


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## broadgage (Nov 4, 2015)

I would keep it simple and stick to eneloops as the main power source, with a few expensive L91 lithiums as backup.
With a reasonable number of charged cells to hand, a power failure of a few days should be of little consequence, simply store discharged cells and recharge after the outage.

Just in case grid power is unavailable for longer, then have a backup charger that works of the truck battery. To avoid over discharging the truck battery, either plan charging for when you are driving the vehicle, or buy a solar panel to keep the truck battery charged.


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## Poppy (Nov 4, 2015)

peripatew said:


> Though, is there any issue flying with 18650's internationally?


I don't think so, your friend will have to check with his airline. I don't recall if they have to be in carry on, or checked baggage.

I would have him also pick up a couple of RCR123s, or your V11R will be relegated to a "never used" flashlight. Once you start using rechargeables, you'll never go back to paying $15 for disposable cells.


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## peripatew (Nov 4, 2015)

LedTed said:


> peripatew,
> 
> Re: Your Discussion points.
> *
> ...



Run time is definitely a consideration. The EA81 and most 2+ 18650's have a loooong runtime on lower modes. I very much like the options of the EA81:

-2150 lumens - 1 hour 45 minutes 
-1200 lumens - 2 hours 30 minutes 
-460 lumens - 7 hours 
-80 lumens- 32 hours 
-1 lumen- 810 hours

80 lumens is quite usable, and 460 is plenty of light, though I'd rather have 250-350. 

A secondary car battery is what I'm leaning towards. Something like this, which can be charged via solar, household, or DC adapter in the car:






Expensive, but I think all around the most flexible.


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## peripatew (Nov 4, 2015)

Poppy said:


> I don't think so, your friend will have to check with his airline. I don't recall if they have to be in carry on, or checked baggage.
> 
> I would have him also pick up a couple of RCR123s, or your V11R will be relegated to a "never used" flashlight. Once you start using rechargeables, you'll never go back to paying $15 for disposable cells.



I've added 2 RCR123's to go along with the D4 charger. 

After some quick researching, it seems they are fine to take, but need to be in the carry on if they are loose.


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## Poppy (Nov 4, 2015)

The below is snipped from faa.gov



> Rechargeable and non-rechargeable lithium batteries, cell phone batteries, laptop batteries, external batteries, portable rechargers
> Spare (uninstalled) lithium ion and lithium metal batteries must be carried in carry-on baggage only. When a carry-on bag is checked at the gate or at planeside, all spare lithium batteries must be removed from the bag and kept with the passenger in the aircraft cabin. The battery terminals must be protected from short circuit.
> This covers spare lithium metal and spare rechargeable lithium ion batteries for personal electronics such as cameras, cell phones, laptop computers, tablets, watches, calculators, etc. This also includes external battery chargers (portable rechargers) containing a lithium ion battery. _For lithium batteries that are installed in a device (laptop, cell phone, camera, etc.), see the entry for "portable electronic devices, containing batteries" in this chart_.
> 
> Size limits: Lithium metal (non-rechargeable) batteries are limited to 2 grams of lithium per battery. Lithium ion (rechargeable) batteries are limited to a rating of 100 watt hours (Wh) per battery. These limits allow for nearly all types of lithium batteries used by the average person in their electronic devices. With airline approval, passengers may also carry up to two spare larger lithium ion batteries (101-160 watt hours). This size covers the larger after-market extended-life laptop computer batteries and some larger batteries used in professional audio/visual equipment.


There is more info at the above link, but the short answer is there is no real problem with bringing LiIons overseas.
BTW... a 3400mah 18650 has 12.58 watt hours capacity, they are well below the 101-160 watt hours battery that are still allowed, but limited to two.


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 4, 2015)

Solar charging is ideal along with smart chargers. Eneloops (AA/AAA) are the longest lasting cells i have come across, one set will keep flashlights powered for many years. Lithium Ion cells i would recommend as secondary only because of the longevity factor, but if that's not one it's a good choice for some powerful lights that take up a lot of power. If you want a generator, the best ones are battery backups that are capable of being charged by solar and main power output.


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## MX421 (Nov 4, 2015)

If you aren't looking to have a whole lot of battery usage and charging them is also an issue, i don't think any multi cell light should even be considered. I have the non-rechargable model of the Olight S30 (and a few other lights in this class) and if i don't go to the high mode much, i can make those lights last a few days without changing out batteries for my needs, and most of my batteries aren't the best (reclaimed from "bad" tool/laptop battery packs). That class of light has enough throw for purposes of up to say 50 yards and plenty of spill for everything else. For extra throw, i have a TK75 that can blast a wall of light far, like the TM16 but in reality, i will more often turn to my Armytek Barracuda (with the one cell tube, but it also has a 2 cell tube like my older model) more than the huge TK75 for throw purposes. I hunt, so this long throw is important to me, but i bet something that throws a little less than runs on one 18650 cell would work fine for you and certainly blow away any AA light you may have. The recommended Convoy C8 above would work well for this, and its very cheap. Not sure what the distance this light will throw for comparison though, but i would expect it would be similar to something like a Armytek Viking or Predator. For a little more (okay a LOT more) than the C8 you can get an Olight M3X or a Armytek Barracuda which have around 700 meters throw. Anything with a lot of throw like that might get unwanted attention for your situation.

As far as chargers, there are plenty of USB chargers that will work in your car or the solar panel discussed above. I have a Klarus, and Xtar, and a D4 mentioned above and they all work very well and would run off the truck with the car adapter.

Hope this helps and keep up the good work.


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## Poppy (Nov 4, 2015)

MX421,
You echo my sentiments exactly!
May I say that I agree with you? 

Your recommendation of the Olight S30 (review here) is better than my recommendation of the Convoy S2+ except that it is double to triple the price, but with its extra flexibility of additional output levels, it may be worth the extra cost, especially if the budget allows. I really like that form factor for a general purpose light. Another in that class that many like is the Fenix PD35.

The Convoy C8 is probably between 30,000 and 40,000 cd meaning that it's throw is 350 - 400 yards to 0.25 lumens (ansi specs.)
I am sure that you know, but the OP may not know that 0.25 lumens is considered moon-light, but in reality, 0.25 lumens makes a difference at 20-50 feet, but at more than that it is make believe. So in reality, a light that is rated at 400 yards is only good out to 100 yards to SEE anything, unless it is reflective, like a big cat's eyes


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## moldyoldy (Nov 5, 2015)

Hallo Peripatew, Coming over here by request from the EA81 thread. 


Ref your light/cell/battery searches for remote surroundings with lots of Sunlight.

The 15/16W solar panels from Anker and RAVPower have a useful size and are still foldable/packable. Connect those solar panels to an Anker battery-based USB output pack with many different capacity options. Look at the Anker 2nd Gen Astro E5 with 2x USB outputs & 16000maH of capacity.

18650 lights:

I do not recommend any 3x/4x 18650 lights for your environment. Too bulky with unnecessary light output and too many 18650 cells to charge at once. About the only 2x 18650 light I could recommend would be the Fenix LD50. The key to the LD50 is that it can operate on 1 or 2 18650 cells since each LED is driven separately although controlled by a single switch.

For an 1x 18650 light, a good combo flashlight is the Nitecore MH20. uses a single 18650, and allows USB charging. very compact but with a good beam of ~1000 lumens. 

switching to AA/AAA lights:

For a 4xAA light, I happen to have and like the Nitecore EA41 or the Jetbeam SRA40. The SRA40 is pricey but has the longest throw of any 4xAA light.

For the longest-throw light, the EA81 is certainly a possibility, but I suspect that you would not use the output very often. Hence charging 8x AA cells does not represent a challenge. Not sure why you would need the distance except on a SAR mission.

A 2x AAA penlight would provide adequate distant personal light w/o running down as fast as a 1x AAA light would. This can still be held in your lips/teeth.

For a close personal light possibly around your neck: The famous Nitecore Tube! ~40 lumens at max output and USB chargeable. Difficult to beat this. I would favor the Nitecore Tube over the 1xAAA lights primarily because it is USB rechargeable. 

Chargers: 

An Anker USB battery pack covers any USB charging needs. For your situation it would be primarily charged by the Solar panels. 

For an AA/AAA NiMH charger (120/240VAC), check out the latest Panasonic BQ-CC17. The BQ-CC17 is an excellent compact NiMH charger - charges 1-4 cells with individual channel LEDs. The CC17 is currently discounted for ~$18 including 4x Eneloop cells (from A.) I have 3 of these. The only possible complaint is that the BQ-CC17 charges at a slower rate. The key is that the pulsed charge current is 1200ma, which means a good -dV/dT signal. no trickle charge.

For a combo charger of Li-IOn cells, including 18650s, that can also be used as a 5V USB source, look at the Xtar SP1. The SP1 accepts cells up to 26650 with charge rates from 0.5A to 1.0A to 2.0A. Most importantly the Xtar SP1 supports a 5V USB output, but not while charging. 

IOW, looking at your range coverage: The Nitecore Tube for a close personal light. 2x AAA penlight (longer-reach personal light) to the MH20 (balanced spill/spot) to LD50 (lots of long flood) to the EA81 (SAR light). The Tube is available from many sources for $9.90 with periodic discounting down to ~$7.

oops, almost forgot: If you want to measure the USB voltage/current levels, then there are several small combo USB meters available. I like the DROK USB meter with the pigtail USB lead to get the meter away from any USB port. The latest version will also briefly record the AH capacity of the USB output. This has 2 USB outputs from a single USB input. Very useful. also from A.


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## moldyoldy (Nov 5, 2015)

another 'almost forgot': If you want to be slightly geeky and super compact, then pick up some of these SMD lights as found on A. Several manufacturers: Drok, SoShine, Yitee, etc. They are nothing more than some number of SMD LEDs mounted directly on a PCB that plugs in to a USB port. Operating current is maybe 150ma depending on how many SMD LEDs are mounted. Some of those SMD lights even have variable output. Kinda neat really.


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## Poppy (Nov 5, 2015)

moldyoldy said:


> Hallo Peripatew, Coming over here by request from the EA81 thread.


Hi moldyoldy!
Nice to see you here 

Checking out the thread that you came from, I see that peripatew already ordered the EA81.
I agree with you that a 3 or 4 cell 18650 would not be used as frequently as he may imagine.

There's a light that you might want to take a look at, the Sunwayman D40C it has similar outputs, and similar throw to the EA81, but runs on two 18650s and is very compact in comparison.

Just as you had used two lights combined to get greater throw, I suggested that he get a Convoy S2, and C8. Combined they would give similar throw to the EA81, and also a nice amount of foreground flood. Cambodia has very thick vegetation. If he is out in the country, he may be better served with a more floody light. When I first came here, I was searching for a "wooded area SAR light" and was recommended a Thrunite TN30. Personally on a SAR mission, I wouldn't carry it... it is too big and bulky to carry all day and night for my own uses. BUT because most of the guys on the SAR team would have insufficient lights, I might carry it to supplement theirs. OTOH, we might do better with a five C8s.

Regarding recharging batteries, he'll usually have house power. Some outages may last a few days, but he'll almost always have his truck with him. Being close to the equator, in Cambodia, he'll typically have about 12 hour days meaning he may need a light for 4 hours a night on average; when he is out in the field, but not when at home, unless the power is out.

I don't know enough about chargers, but I have a Xtar WP6-2 that'll do 6 18650s at a time. It can run from a home outlet, or the car cigar port. It'll take up to six hours to fully charge fully depleted cells. A car's alternator can replenish the power taken from the trucks/cars battery at a rate of about 1 minute per each 18650 or four AA batteries. Therefore, unless gasoline is unobtainable I wouldn't stress too much about solar. Not that solar isn't good. But initially the OP was on a budget and couldn't afford solar. I also have a Nitecore Intellivision I4 charger that'll do 4 18650s or 4 AA NiMH, or a mix of the two, but it takes 4-6 hours to charge. eneloops! 6 - 18650s at 12 watt hours each is 72 watt hours, 4 eneloops @ 3 watt hours each is 12 watt hours. so depending upon how many watt hours he will need from his batteries, he may need to be sure that he has sufficient recharging capacity in his chargers.

I have a six cell AA light that is set up 3S2P. I tested it on 3AAs and it failed miserably, because one of the cells failed. Without a voltmeter, I wouldn't have known what the problem was, nor be able to pick out the bad cell. Maybe that left a bad taste in my mouth for multi-cell lights. Perhaps I should say... excessively multi-cells. I do like my 2 AAA and 2 AA cell lights. If I was going into an area where power MAY be a struggle to obtain, I'd carry a 2AA light more often than a 2 AAA light, because a 2450ma AA has 3 times the capacity of a 800ma AAA. The EagleTac D25a2 comes to mind as a nice, elegant 2AA light, that is not too bulky.


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## peripatew (Nov 5, 2015)

Poppy said:


> Hi moldyoldy!
> Nice to see you here
> 
> Checking out the thread that you came from, I see that peripatew already ordered the EA81.



Somewhat of a mixup actually. I had ordered it right before your 18650 summary post on here, in which I began to research some other options listed. But I wasn't able to cancel my Amazon order before it shipped out.  I am still looking at potential alternatives, but I'm not sure the people I've sent the items too will have the time or be able to return the Amazon stuff for me as it's arriving right before they leave.


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## Poppy (Nov 5, 2015)

When are they leaving, and from where?
You may have limited your options due to time constraints.
Fenix lights are sometimes available at upscale camping/outing stores. \
Goinggear and other small retailers may be able to overnight to them, if they have the item in stock.


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## MX421 (Nov 6, 2015)

Hey Poppy,

Yes, i think we agree on quite a bit. As you said, it all depends on budget. the Convoy S2+ is very cheap and built very well. In addition to the S30 i also have a Fenix PD35 you mention which is a very good light as well. I also agree that the additional modes are worth the additional cost. From the post above though all these recommendation may be pointless, unless your thought that a common light (like the PD35) can be found locally.

Best of luck peripatew!


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## radioshaq (Nov 6, 2015)

Well - this is a thread very close to my heart. i grew up in a developing country where in the worst of months (december / january) electricity is limited to about 5 / 6 hrs a day in the capital city! i have been lucky enough to be living in the US currently, but am going back for an extended period. this is what got me interested in researching for good flashlights (of which we have none back).

extrapolating from my experience, which i believe is similar to the type of environment you will be in - i think the best setup for the all around use (not for the bright light use) would be

*Olight s15r + the extended tube*

reasons:
1. it comes with rechargeable 14500 battery
2. it comes with a usb charger
3. you can use standard AA batteries to quite bright general purpose use
4. you can buy and extension tube to convert it to 2 X AA for an even brighter light when you need it
5. you can buy a white wand that goes over the head to convert it to a decent lantern (i believe you will find this very useful. i practically grew up with lanterns, during electricity outages)
6. it has a tail standing magnet

*the rechargeable light with battery + wand + extension tube can be had for about $30! 
*I don't know if one can name vendors in this forum, but you could google for olight s15r, and find them. I have a few I have on order. though I understand it can take some time for them to mail stuff over.


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## bykfixer (Nov 6, 2015)

^^ Welcome to the site.

Love, love, love that screen name Mr. Shaq.


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## moldyoldy (Nov 7, 2015)

Poppy said:


> Hi moldyoldy!
> Nice to see you here
> 
> Checking out the thread that you came from, I see that peripatew already ordered the EA81.
> ...



Hallo Poppy, Thanks for the greetings! I do follow your power-failure thread! I will post something there in a bit. Since moving after my wife finally retired, I have very little chance to read the threads on CPF, much less post anything.


Peripatew: 

Do not feel sad about the order going thru for the EA81. It is a nice light with a significant output AND runs on AA/AAAs. Use of a light like the EA81 depends a lot on your immediate surroundings. Regrettably I did not catch that you did not have the time for a more deliberate order. However, about the only recommendation that I would change is to favor the RAV Power solar panel rather than the Anker Solar Panel. The RAV with 3 solar panels is more effective at utilizing the Sun whereas the Anker with only 2 solar panels is picky. Said differently, I never could obtain the spec'd output from the Anker solar panel whereas the RAV solar panel reached it's spec easily - all in cloudless noontime bright sun, admittedly in early November. I used the DROK USB meter and the DROK USB resistive load (1A/2A).

My main miss in my light/battery lineup is that I gave away the Sanyo USB AA/AAA charger to a needy parent with kids & power-hungry toys. I never found an adequate replacement. Also, I have steadily shifted back to AA/AAA lights and chargers. In my effort to simplify & reduce my flashaholic affliction, I dropped all (R)CR123A cells and I dropped all of the 2000+ lumen multi-cell 18650 lights. Not justified in my changed environment, no matter in the US or Germany.


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## Poppy (Nov 7, 2015)

I look forward to your contributions to the power outage thread. :thumbsup:

I'd also like to give you a thumbsup for donating some of your lights in thedoc007's giveaway thread. :thumbsup:


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## braddy (Nov 7, 2015)

peripatew said:


> We have unending sun . So I think solar is a decent option. But again, only as a backup to my backup. If I decided to go for something like the NiteCore EA81, which takes 8 AA's, I think relying on solar would be less than ideal. But in that situation, I think I'd be sticking with the lowest mode possible, unless I needed to throw some lumens. But, even an efficient 15W panel would get the job done. In my mind, if I would need to rely on the solar panel, I'd need to be mobile. So having something portable vs powerful would be best. If it's big and bulky I wouldn't have it with me.



Whatever batteries you choose, buy a XTAR VC4 Charger for Lithium-ion and Ni-MH Batteries for your truck and/or house, it will charge your batteries in your vehicle, if you are traveling rough country, then you should have one in the truck anyway. 

If you have a long blackout, just charge your batteries in the truck.


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## radioshaq (Nov 8, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> ^^ Welcome to the site.
> 
> Love, love, love that screen name Mr. Shaq.



Thanks! there is an interesting history behind that screen name  and it has nothing to do with my basketball playing abilities, unfortunately, of which i have very little.


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## radioshaq (Nov 8, 2015)

braddy said:


> Whatever batteries you choose, buy a XTAR VC4 Charger for Lithium-ion and Ni-MH Batteries for your truck and/or house, it will charge your batteries in your vehicle, if you are traveling rough country, then you should have one in the truck anyway.
> 
> If you have a long blackout, just charge your batteries in the truck.



hmm - very interesting option to have a charger that can be powered in a truck. does it run off the 12V car battery directly? if so, then this could give even more options in a developing country like where i am from, where a lot of households keep 12V batteries for backup lights.


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## braddy (Nov 8, 2015)

You plug your USB adapter into the cigarette lighter, the one that you use for your cell phone or whatever, and then plug in the USB cord that the Xtar VC4 uses.

The same goes for inside of the house, you plug it into your USB wall adapter, or your laptop or computer USB, it charges faster with the newer 2.1, or 2.4 mah adapters rather than the 1.1 older versions.

Here is the review. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?400085-Test-Review-of-Charger-Xtar-VC4

HKJ describes it as


> Conclusion
> 
> The charger is very good at both LiIon and NiMH charging and keeps some impressive low cell temperature during charge (Like the VC2).
> For charging at full current the charger is fairly demanding of the used usb power supply. It is possible to use weaker supplies, but the charging will be slower or sometimes much slower. With the current dial it is easy enough to see when that happens and it is time to get a better usb power supply. I would have liked slightly better performance with weak usb power supplies.
> ...










If you are charging batteries for your entire neighborhood nonstop, then you can connect a solar battery charger to your truck, to maintain your truck's battery, but in normal usage, your truck battery won't notice it.

HKJ rates the Blitzwolf USB chargers as safe, and good, the ones for the house, and for the automobile.

BlitzWolf™ 9.6A 48W 4 Port USB Car Charger 

BlitzWolf™ 4.8A 24W Dual USB Travel Wall US Charger


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## peripatew (Nov 8, 2015)

braddy said:


> You plug your USB adapter into the cigarette lighter, the one that you use for your cell phone or whatever, and then plug in the USB cord that the Xtar VC4 uses.
> 
> The same goes for inside of the house, you plug it into your USB wall adapter, or your laptop or computer USB, it charges faster with the newer 2.1, or 2.4 mah adapters rather than the 1.1 older versions.
> 
> ...




Two questions. Does the DC4 have any advantages to the VC4, other than charging via USB? I ask as I ordered the DC4 w/ a car charger, as the USB options that I had come across didn't seem anything special. Missed this one somehow.

Second question, a bit bigger: How would I figure out the math for how much drain a charger would put on a car battery? I know for solar, I'd need a decent panel (50W minimum?) and a charge controller. But I'm just curious how much of an impact charging batteries would have on it. I'm sure it's highly variable based on charge draw and batteries.


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## braddy (Nov 8, 2015)

I would have to look up what HKJ says about the DC4.

HKJ has posted on using the car for charging without the engine running when asked about charging D cells, and 18650s.



> It is best not to discharge a car battery below 50%, with that in mind a simple guide is not to charge more Ah, than the car battery is rated. I.e. with a 60Ah battery, do not charge more than 60000mAh LiIon cells. I am a bit chicken and would stay well below that value.



I interpret that as meaning that charging a few batteries in between driving the vehicle is just fine, personally I have $20.00 trickle solar chargers plugged into my lighter receptacles because i sometimes don't use the vehicles for weeks at a time, so unless I start a battery charging festival for a week or two, I would be fine.


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## peripatew (Nov 8, 2015)

braddy said:


> I would have to look up what HKJ says about the DC4.
> 
> HKJ has posted on using the car for charging without the engine running when asked about charging D cells, and 18650s.
> 
> ...



Thanks!

Can you link to the post where he is talking about charging off batteries?


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## braddy (Nov 8, 2015)

What I quoted was it, he was asked a question but wasn't talking about it, and didn't elaborate, I'm hoping that someone will, on this thread. 

I'm very interested in using my existing car as the poor man's replacement for actual solar chargers and marine batteries, etc., when the need is for simply recharging a few flashlight batteries occasionally during long term blackouts.


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## HKJ (Nov 8, 2015)

I can elaborate a bit on the car battery:
A LiIon battery has about 4 volt and a car battery has about 12 volt, this means that a 100% effective charger would need 1000mAh from the car battery to charge 3000mAh into a LiIon battery, but no charger is 100% effective and for that reason I assumed 1500mAh from the car battery to charge 3000mAh LiIon.
With this assumption I uses half the mAh from the car battery, compared to what I charge into a LiIon battery, i.e. a 60Ah car battery can charge 120Ah or 120000mAh LiIon, but that would empty the car battery (And damage it). Using a 50% discharge limit I get the numbers from before: 60Ah car battery can charge 60Ah (60000mAh) LiIon battery using half its energy.

For this to work there are, of course, some conditions: 
The car battery must be fully charged before starting
The car battery must have full capacity
The LiIon charger must be disconnected when finished.
The car must recharge the battery within a few days or it will drain it too much.

The safest solution is having a voltmeter on the car battery, then you can see when it needs to be recharged.


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## moldyoldy (Nov 8, 2015)

peripatew said:


> Two questions. Does the DC4 have any advantages to the VC4, other than charging via USB? I ask as I ordered the DC4 w/ a car charger, as the USB options that I had come across didn't seem anything special. Missed this one somehow.
> 
> Second question, a bit bigger: How would I figure out the math for how much drain a charger would put on a car battery? I know for solar, I'd need a decent panel (50W minimum?) and a charge controller. But I'm just curious how much of an impact charging batteries would have on it. I'm sure it's highly variable based on charge draw and batteries.




Some data from the RAVPower 15W Solar Panel (3 panels): Using the DROK USB meter (dual V/A display) and the DROK USB resistive load (1A & 2A switchable) at solar peak (nominally noon in Wisconsin) in an early November Sun in a cloudless sky: I have demonstrated to myself that I can pull 1A and 2A while still maintaining 5+Volts output from the RAVPower 15W panel. The 16W Anker solar panel (2 panels) dropped to 4.6V-4.8V and 1.64A under the same conditions. However there is a 21W Anker solar panel available. 


A caveat to pulling 2A from a 5V solar panel: I connected the DROK USB meter directly to the output of the solar panel. Any USB cable has sufficient resistance in the small wires to drop the possible current from a 5V source to a load. The longer the USB cable, the less current. 

So far I am testing the 15W RAVPower solar panel by laying it on the dash of my car during road trips. The RAVPower 15W 3 solar panels do fit the top of the dash. The idea is that with the turns of the road I get a good idea of the effective output under moving conditions rather than a stationary optimum slant to the sun.

BTW, I like the DROK USB meter because it has a dual V/A display and 2 USB outputs, not the usual one found on many USB meters. 1 output for nominal output plus data, 1 output for high-current. There are several models of this unit, all look alike. at a slightly higher cost, I prefer the unit compatible with the Samsung high current charge. A nice plus is that in one of the several modes, the MAH is recorded as well. Sort of a self-contained data acquisition system.


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## Poppy (Nov 8, 2015)

HKJ said:


> I can elaborate a bit on the car battery:
> A LiIon battery has about 4 volt and a car battery has about 12 volt, this means that a 100% effective charger would need 1000mAh from the car battery to charge 3000mAh into a LiIon battery, but no charger is 100% effective and for that reason I assumed 1500mAh from the car battery to charge 3000mAh LiIon.
> With this assumption I uses half the mAh from the car battery, compared to what I charge into a LiIon battery, i.e. a 60Ah car battery can charge 120Ah or 120000mAh LiIon, but that would empty the car battery (And damage it). Using a 50% discharge limit I get the numbers from before: 60Ah car battery can charge 60Ah (60000mAh) LiIon battery using half its energy.
> 
> ...


I'd like to add to HKJ's comments.
Here is a nice chart and discussion on the "State of Charge" of 6V and 12V Lead Acid batteries, using both a digital volt meter, and better yet, the specific gravity of the cells.
One bit of information that is lacking, and I don't know the answer is "How low of a state of charge may one allow the car battery to get before it won't start the engine?"
So I personally wouldn't want to run the battery down below 12.25 volts. I do have two other vehicles that I can use to jump start mine, if I happen to go too low, but doing some math:
If an average car battery has about 60 AHours capacity, and we drain it to 12.25 volts we'll have used about 40% of that capacity, or 40%*60= 24A hours. 
24AmpsHours x 12 volts = 288 wattsHours
an 18650 battery has about 3.7V * 3400 mah or 3.7V x 3.4 AH = 12.58 wattsHours.

288 watts / 12.58 watts = 22.9 (18650 3400mah batteries)
can be FULLY recharged from dead. Before I would have to start my car to recharge the car's battery.

I did the math in the Power Outage Thread and determined that the average car's alternator can resupply the car's battery at a rate of about 12 watts a minute, or 720 watts an hour. 
EDIT: (Actually I calculated about 940 watts an hour)


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## bykfixer (Nov 8, 2015)

radioshaq said:


> Thanks! there is an interesting history behind that screen name  and it has nothing to do with my basketball playing abilities, unfortunately, of which i have very little.



I kinda figured it was a clever way to disguise your nerd side...
Kinda like 'that radio shack guy carries c4 in his backpack for kix n giggles' type of thing...


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## peripatew (Nov 8, 2015)

Poppy said:


> I'd like to add to HKJ's comments.
> Here is a nice chart and discussion on the "State of Charge" of 6V and 12V Lead Acid batteries, using both a digital volt meter, and better yet, the specific gravity of the cells.
> One bit of information that is lacking, and I don't know the answer is "How low of a state of charge may one allow the car battery to get before it won't start the engine?"
> So I personally wouldn't want to run the battery down below 12.25 volts. I do have two other vehicles that I can use to jump start mine, if I happen to go too low, but doing some math:
> ...



Thanks for the great info! From what I've been reading while rummaging the net, there's not magic voltage number in terms of what a car needs to be able to start in terms of a low end, as each alternator is going to be different. But, I want to avoid getting close to that personally so it shouldn't be a problem. I'm trying to source so 100+AH batteries here, but haven't found anything deep cycle yet.

My plan is to run a dual battery setup, each with a monitor, so I should be more than fine. But if for some reason fuel becomes an issue, I'm hunting for a good solar option.


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## peripatew (Nov 8, 2015)

moldyoldy said:


> Some data from the RAVPower 15W Solar Panel (3 panels): Using the DROK USB meter (dual V/A display) and the DROK USB resistive load (1A & 2A switchable) at solar peak (nominally noon in Wisconsin) in an early November Sun in a cloudless sky: I have demonstrated to myself that I can pull 1A and 2A while still maintaining 5+Volts output from the RAVPower 15W panel. The 16W Anker solar panel (2 panels) dropped to 4.6V-4.8V and 1.64A under the same conditions. However there is a 21W Anker solar panel available.
> 
> 
> A caveat to pulling 2A from a 5V solar panel: I connected the DROK USB meter directly to the output of the solar panel. Any USB cable has sufficient resistance in the small wires to drop the possible current from a 5V source to a load. The longer the USB cable, the less current.
> ...



Thanks for the info! I've got the DROK meter in my Amazon cart, waiting for my next possible delivery (maaaybe in December or January). The reviews for the RAV seem to be the best for the ~15W USB only solars, but what I don't like about it is that it can't connect to a car battery at all. I've seen a few that are in the 18-25W range that have a 12v-18v output as well, but these seem to be aimed mostly at laptop chargers. It seems to properly charge a car battery, a charge control will be necessary, especially if I start to upgrade things. If I do that I'd likely try to find a more capable solar panel. BUT, I'd love one that I could use for USB and topping off a car battery. But my lack of experience/knowledge is making that a bit difficult. I think I'm wanting too much from a solar panel that is designed to be ultra portable.


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## moldyoldy (Nov 8, 2015)

FWIW regarding lead acid cells commonly used in automotive applications: short bursts of high-ampere discharge followed by relatively long charge cycle. The car L-A battery has changed drastically from the '50s when I started paying attention. In the 'early days', the AH capacity was the primary selection criteria for a car - AH equated to what we now refer to as 'cranking power'. Unfortunately in those days that also meant a lot of lead! As the L-A car battery designs evolved to use less lead, the evolving plate designs offered a relatively high current discharge for a relatively low AH capacity. Hence the modern L-A battery for cars is designated by the cranking amps possible. While that may help lower the cost, it results in a car battery that is even less tolerant of being excessively discharged. Most high cranking amp car batteries fail via no output.

To comment on the chart referenced by Poppy: The reason for the 12.6 volt line is that the proper chemical H2SO4 mix results in a single lead-acid open-terminal full-charge voltage of 2.1V per cell. Hence the 6 cell car battery has a nominal open circuit voltage of 12.6 volts. Car voltage controllers will up the charge voltage to 14.5+ volts for ~-20C weather and only 13.6v for nominal temperatures. Hotter temps and the charge voltage is lowered. 

For further reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–acid_battery

------------extract-----------
These are general voltage ranges per cell:


Open-circuit (quiescent) at _full charge_: 2.10 V
Open-circuit at _full discharge_: 1.95 V
Loaded at full discharge: 1.75 V

-------------


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## bykfixer (Nov 8, 2015)

edited.

I don't know what brand truck you have, but you may consider asking the family to send you a spare (biggest outputyou can get to work) alternator, some new belts n hoses and some Royal Purple 'purple ice' to aid your precious coolant.

Also consider removing the ground wire when not using the truck to ensure no parasitic drain occurs and reduce 'sulfation'


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## SA Condor (Nov 8, 2015)

Ok! I just finished catching up on this thread. We were off grid for most of the last week. No cell connection and lots of remote travel. I've taken the info shared here and looked up a couple items myself! I really like the looks of that Thunder box thing on page 2. Does anyone have a link for that? That looks like a smart item to have in my truck for the type of trips I have to make.



peripatew said:


> Have you found need for a larger light? Perhaps it's the gear-head side of me that's attracted to lights like the EA81, or even the massive NiteCore TM16.
> 
> Your suggested light seems very practical, something that fills the gap between what I currently have, and what I'd like (a light with a lots of throwy lumens).
> 
> If I didn't have my v11R, I think I'd definitely pick one or two up. The USB charger makes it reeeeeally appealing.



Sorry for the delayed response! I've been in the middle of nowhere!

I'm not familiar with either of those lights, I'm going to look up the EA81 after I post here. I'm very happy with my Olight S30R . . . have I found a "need" for a larger light? . . . I don't know that I 'need' a bigger light, but I can definitely say I'd like a bigger light someday and I can see a use for it, I just haven't been able to get anything like that. I'd love something that combines a lot of flood and a lot of throw.



braddy said:


> personally I have $20.00 trickle solar chargers plugged into my lighter receptacles because i sometimes don't use the vehicles for weeks at a time, so unless I start a battery charging festival for a week or two, I would be fine.



What product are you referring to? I'd love to have a trickle charge setup.


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## Poppy (Nov 8, 2015)

bykfixer makes a good point, in that if you find that you are using your truck a LOT for recharging batteries, there can be a lot of variance in the out put of different alternators. I recall that my 1990 bronco had a 60, or 85 AMP alternator, my 1999 crown victoria had a 135 amp output, and the police interceptors had a 200 amp option.


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## Poppy (Nov 8, 2015)

Regarding getting a car battery as a power bank.
You already know that you would be better off with a Marine/deep cell battery. You mentioned that you haven't found a source for them near you.
It seems that car batteries don't typically list amp hour capacities, but I found this on another site that was interesting.

additionally, if you're trying to find out how long you car battery can sustain a particular load - 

instead of looking at CA or CCA, there will usually be a 'reserve capacity' rating (in minutes) - it rates how long the battery can sustain a 25 amp load before discharging to 10.5 volts (dead). so say you need to run your laptop, and it draws around 5 amps - if that's the only thing you have plugged in, you can do (25A/5A)*RC, which is 5*RC. so if your (brand new) battery has a 60 minute reserve capacity, you can estimate that you'll be able to run your laptop for 5 hours before your battery dies


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## peripatew (Nov 8, 2015)

SA Condor said:


> Ok! I just finished catching up on this thread. We were off grid for most of the last week. No cell connection and lots of remote travel. I've taken the info shared here and looked up a couple items myself! I really like the looks of that Thunder box thing on page 2. Does anyone have a link for that? That looks like a smart item to have in my truck for the type of trips I have to make.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Here's the ArkPak and here is the Thunder Weekender. They make the ArkPak with a 110v invert, but not sure about the Weekender. I'm talking with a battery company in Australia to see about importing one. They said the Weekender is a littler better, in that it has a better inverter. More watts and pure sine wave if I recall correctly. These are what I'm looking at in terms of making my own Goal Zero solar generator setup. MUCH cheaper than a Yeti 1250, but with potential for more amp hours depending on your battery choice. Pretty sweet. From googling, it seems the ArkPak is more known than the Weekender, so not sure about their reliability. The Weekender seems limited to Australia, but I think it's the one I'll go with. A bit bigger dimensionally as well.

I'll let you know about the EA81, should have it in a week. I was really tempted by the Olight S30R and the NiteCore MH20. I like the charging base of the Olight, but maybe like the MH20's micro USB charging port better? Anywho, I'm "stuck" with the EA81, but I'm ok with that. I think I'll really like it.


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## bykfixer (Nov 8, 2015)

Olights are cool.

Edit: 
I just realized I said that at a flash light hobbyest forum...somebody might think I was speaking in terms of beam... 

Olights are nifty.


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## moldyoldy (Nov 9, 2015)

Hallo Peripatew, Concerning your deliberations regarding solar panels and 12V vs 5V or a combo solar panel that has both 12V and 5V:

Short incoming synopsis: Solar power is highly overrated for actual output power (maH) in the course of a solar day at moderate latitudes such as US & Europe - maybe 50% of rating. Even in middle latitudes, good luck on 75% of rated output.

Jump to end of my soap-box musings for a recommendation. 

First, some possibly useful commentary on my deliberations for my portable power needs :

In my usual fit of enthusiasm for optional energy sources (ie: NOT the mains 120VAC or 240VAC sources in US/Europe) I tried out several of the small solar-based battery chargers available from REI and other outdoors outfitters. Nearly all of the chargers were simple, either all parallel or all serial, and none of the smallish solar panels had any hope of charging 4 NiCd or NiMh AA cells in a full solar day of ~12 hrs (sunrise to sunset). not going down that path again.

Enter the larger modern solar panels starting around 50 USD and above. Most of these are byproducts of development for roof-top solar panels that I see so frequently in Germany, Austria, Switzerland & rarely in the US. Retaining the understanding that solar cells need some sort of a controller, the output choices involve building the solar panel for a DC output of 12V or 5V, or additionally conceding the significant energy loss for a DC - VAC converter just to have an AC output for a household or remote cabin. 

The energy losses involved in a 12VDC - 120VAC converter in a _portable_ system were unacceptable to me - maybe 70% efficiency depending on the quality & cost of the DC-AC converter. 

That left the choice of a direct 12VDC or 5VDC output from the solar panel, or maybe both. Which voltage is the most needed? 12VDC or 5VDC? Since the energy from a running automotive engine is considered 'free', or RVs often have a gas-powered portable generator to charge the deep-cycle automotive-size batteries on-board, hobby/consumer battery chargers often have both a 120VAC and a 12VDC input. USB 5V power sources/sinks are mostly limited to 2A or less, Apple products notwithstanding. 

However, most _portable_ electronics now use a 5VDC input. Because car systems are normally 12VDC (trucks may be 48VDC), there are many buck converters available for dropping the 12VDC to 5VDC. Alternatively, Amazon offers several 5VDC to 12VDC boost converters with adjustable voltage. Look for the boost converters with heat sinks!

My choice for my needs: My portable power needs are primarily 5VDC and away from a vehicle. Hence I chose a solar panel with a 5V USB output and that could be draped across a backpack. 15W minimum. I have no real need for 12VDC away from a vehicle. I use several USB power banks of varying sizes to bridge the gap between charging opportunities.

note: My USB-only battery chargers are slow, but I am not bothered by 'slow charges'. The primary advantage to a 'slow' charge is a more complete charge and longer cell life. eg: 0.5A or less effective charge rate. Pulsed charging at an amp or better still averages to 0.5A or less. Pulsed charging provides the -dV/dT cutoff for NiMH cells. Nearly all of the in-light charging systems in currently available flashlights charge at 0.5A or less, no matter if the charging source is USB or an AC wall-wart, even for 18650 cells.

I will probably buy a higher-power 5VDC to 12VDC boost converter (w/heat sinks) just to explore operation with variable solar panel input to understand the design choices.

If I was going to set up a relatively stationary solar panel system, I would start with a solar panel of 100W or greater. Most of those offer a 12VDC output for charging a deep-cycle L-A battery.

A data point from Switzerland: a 5000 Euro solar panel feeding 2 deep-cycle 12V L-A batteries with 240VAC converter supplies a Swiss mountainside cabin sufficient power to run minimal but adequate AC lighting to about 3AM when the AC lights died. The cabin was beautifully finished inside and the beer was good! yes, a card game was in progress...


Final synopsis: For Peripatew's needs in SE Asia, I recommend a secondary deep-cycle battery on the vehicle. There are various isolation devices sold in the RV market to isolate the secondary L-A battery from the main L-A battery that is used in operating the vehicle. I jumped far too many dead car/truck batteries used to run peripherals beyond what the owner understood was happening. Skip solar cell charging for now....!

As always, YMMV!!


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## more_vampires (Nov 9, 2015)

On the topic of charging from a vehicle...


> Since the energy from a running automotive engine is considered 'free',


Still gotta source fuel and keep the tank filled.

http://www.streamlight.com/product/product.aspx?pid=259#tabs
Streamlight Solarstream vehicle auxiliary roof-mount solar panel. It's to keep the battery ahead of the massive draw of all the electronics and junk in the LEO-mobiles. If we're talking about charging from a vehicle, something like this might be a good addition?

Also: Streamlight. 5yr warranty.


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## SA Condor (Nov 9, 2015)

peripatew said:


> Here's the ArkPak and here is the Thunder Weekender. They make the ArkPak with a 110v invert, but not sure about the Weekender. I'm talking with a battery company in Australia to see about importing one. They said the Weekender is a littler better, in that it has a better inverter. More watts and pure sine wave if I recall correctly. These are what I'm looking at in terms of making my own Goal Zero solar generator setup. MUCH cheaper than a Yeti 1250, but with potential for more amp hours depending on your battery choice. Pretty sweet. From googling, it seems the ArkPak is more known than the Weekender, so not sure about their reliability. The Weekender seems limited to Australia, but I think it's the one I'll go with. A bit bigger dimensionally as well.
> 
> I'll let you know about the EA81, should have it in a week. I was really tempted by the Olight S30R and the NiteCore MH20. I like the charging base of the Olight, but maybe like the MH20's micro USB charging port better? Anywho, I'm "stuck" with the EA81, but I'm ok with that. I think I'll really like it.



Thanks for the links. Shipping to Bolivia isn't very fun either. Last item I had shipped from Australia got 'lost' in customs . . . There's a government vehicle driving around with my horn in it. I'll have to see what's available from the US.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the EA81 when it makes it there. I was looking at an Eagletac GX30A3D as a great multiple AA light. I have never pulled the trigger. Your input may sway me to make the purchase.


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## bykfixer (Nov 9, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> On the topic of charging from a vehicle...
> Still gotta source fuel and keep the tank filled.
> 
> http://www.streamlight.com/product/product.aspx?pid=259#tabs
> ...



Just saw that recently and thought "hmmmm"
Wonder if it could be used to keep up with a parasitic draw on the battery as dang near anything now comes with an alarm. Or can it keep a 4 bay charger going...that sorta thing.


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## more_vampires (Nov 9, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> Just saw that recently and thought "hmmmm"
> Wonder if it could be used to keep up with a parasitic draw on the battery as dang near anything now comes with an alarm. Or can it keep a 4 bay charger going...that sorta thing.


14 watts at best according to SL, assuming the panel is clean and undamaged.


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## moldyoldy (Nov 9, 2015)

Ref the Streamlight solar panel referenced in the link above. 

0. SL states that the panel was developed with law enforcement vehicles in mind. Although the panel is diode protected against draining the vehicle battery when the sun is down, the mounting/wiring process is not for the faint of heart.
1. The panel is provided with an adhesive backing to stick directly to the paint on the roof of the vehicle. Although SL recommends applying wax to the mounting area, I wonder about that adhesive and what it will do to the paint in the hot sun.
2. there is no controller. The output of the solar panel is 15-22 volts. It is intended for direct connection to the vehicle L-A battery. This is not really a consumer item!


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## Poppy (Nov 9, 2015)

moldyoldy said:


> Ref the Streamlight solar panel referenced in the link above.
> 
> 2. there is no controller. The output of the solar panel is 15-22 volts. It is intended for direct connection to the vehicle L-A battery. This is not really a consumer item!


15-22 volts!
Auto alternators are regulated to do 13.4-14.4 volts. Also Police cruisers may have higher than typical output alternators, for example the Ford Crown Victoria came with a 135 amp alternator, but the cruisers had a 200 amp option.


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## moldyoldy (Nov 9, 2015)

that is 15-22V open circuit. The resistance of the solar cells drops the voltage quickly when sinking current into the L-A battery of a vehicle. sort of self-regulating in a way.


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## peripatew (Nov 9, 2015)

SA Condor said:


> Thanks for the links. Shipping to Bolivia isn't very fun either. Last item I had shipped from Australia got 'lost' in customs . . . There's a government vehicle driving around with my horn in it. I'll have to see what's available from the US.
> 
> I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the EA81 when it makes it there. I was looking at an Eagletac GX30A3D as a great multiple AA light. I have never pulled the trigger. Your input may sway me to make the purchase.



I also really liked the looks of this light. Neat design for sure. I never could track down run times for the different modes though, so it was a bit hard to compare. And there was just something attractive about a 2000+ lumen light. I did look at several other lights in the 3x-4x AA range. selfbuilt has a fantastic round-up of 4x AA's (doesn't include the GX30A3D, but has the GX25A3).

Counting down the days until things arrive! Just hope I didn't order to many things, and have to make the decision of what to leave behind!


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## peripatew (Nov 9, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> On the topic of charging from a vehicle...
> Still gotta source fuel and keep the tank filled.
> 
> http://www.streamlight.com/product/product.aspx?pid=259#tabs
> ...



Interesting! Seems like a great design. Though for me: it's a bit expensive, I won't have any roof real estate once I get my roof rack fabricated, and I do ANYTHING possible to park in the shade. Home/work I have shade to park in. Too hot here!


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## peripatew (Nov 9, 2015)

moldyoldy said:


> Final synopsis: For Peripatew's needs in SE Asia, I recommend a secondary deep-cycle battery on the vehicle. There are various isolation devices sold in the RV market to isolate the secondary L-A battery from the main L-A battery that is used in operating the vehicle. I jumped far too many dead car/truck batteries used to run peripherals beyond what the owner understood was happening. Skip solar cell charging for now....!
> 
> As always, YMMV!!



Thanks for thinking outloud and sharing your experience. I think this is what I've settled on. The battery based "power packs" like the ArkPak/Weekender are capable of being charged via solar, 12vdc, or solar. I'm researching making my own, but if I'm at all able to get once shipping from Australia without breaking the bank (sans battery, I can find something here), I'll pick one up. They each have an AC inverter, which I want as an option. I'll likely keep it mounted in the truck with the 12vdc adapter. It will make using my multi-mount winch easier as well when I get it.

I think I was a bit to hopeful/naive in what charging power would come from a portable 15W solar panel. Batteries sure, but not "the big battery". I'll reassess my needs after experimenting with the power pack to see if a 110+W solar would be a worthwhile investment.


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## SA Condor (Nov 9, 2015)

peripatew said:


> I think I was a bit to hopeful/naive in what charging power would come from a portable 15W solar panel. Batteries sure, but not "the big battery". I'll reassess my needs after experimenting with the power pack to see if a 110+W solar would be a worthwhile investment.



For 15 months we lived in a place with zero electricity. I was able to buy a small kit that provided us a little power. I had 2 batteries, a 55w panel, a regulator, and an inverter. It was nice to have. Where we were living, there was actually very little sun, but it worked. Another missionary family had 4 55w panels, more batteries, and they could do a lot more with the power. I think you would be well served with a setup with at least 110w. Especially since you say there is plenteous sun!

The small 15w panel is a nice thing to have for an emergency type situation. I have a 20w folding panel and a 7w. Either one will slowly charge my phone or flashlight batteries in a pinch. They'll also suffice for trickle charging my truck battery with the regulator attached.

You tell me how the EA81 works out for you, and maybe/hopefully I'll be able to get the Eagletac someday and we can compare notes!


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## peripatew (Nov 9, 2015)

SA Condor said:


> For 15 months we lived in a place with zero electricity. I was able to buy a small kit that provided us a little power. I had 2 batteries, a 55w panel, a regulator, and an inverter. It was nice to have. Where we were living, there was actually very little sun, but it worked. Another missionary family had 4 55w panels, more batteries, and they could do a lot more with the power. I think you would be well served with a setup with at least 110w. Especially since you say there is plenteous sun!
> 
> The small 15w panel is a nice thing to have for an emergency type situation. I have a 20w folding panel and a 7w. Either one will slowly charge my phone or flashlight batteries in a pinch. They'll also suffice for trickle charging my truck battery with the regulator attached.
> 
> You tell me how the EA81 works out for you, and maybe/hopefully I'll be able to get the Eagletac someday and we can compare notes!



Are you're 20w/7w both Goal Zero? How did you attach them to the regulator and then to the battery?

I did order the diffuser for the EA81 as a "cheat" to get the coolness of the Eagletac's led diffuser. 

And kudo's for no electricity. That's hardcore mode. We're trying to transition in the family (3 young kiddos) easily... though it's likely that my wife and I would have the most trouble with it. We did just get a small hot water heater installed in a bathroom after 6 months. IT'S WONDERFUL. I'm going to research going full off-grid a bit, but doubt that we'll need to do that. But should be fun to learn about it. Not sure how practical a propane fridge is here.


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## SA Condor (Nov 9, 2015)

peripatew said:


> Are you're 20w/7w both Goal Zero? How did you attach them to the regulator and then to the battery?
> 
> I did order the diffuser for the EA81 as a "cheat" to get the coolness of the Eagletac's led diffuser.
> 
> And kudo's for no electricity. That's hardcore mode. We're trying to transition in the family (3 young kiddos) easily... though it's likely that my wife and I would have the most trouble with it. We did just get a small hot water heater installed in a bathroom after 6 months. IT'S WONDERFUL. I'm going to research going full off-grid a bit, but doubt that we'll need to do that. But should be fun to learn about it. Not sure how practical a propane fridge is here.



At that time we had a 2 ½ year old and a newborn! We have 3 now. I was surprised at how easy it was for me to adapt. I didn't have ANY nice lights back then, it would have been a fun place (absolute darkness) to have an awesome light to light up the night! My wife struggled a bit though, but hey, she had just delivered a baby in a third world country and was having to adjust to everything. Laundry by hand was no easy task! We did get a propane refrigerator after several months. Before that, we just made sure there was no leftovers. When I finally booked up a propane water heater, my wife was thrilled! Although most of the time our water pressure was too low to kick in on. Sticks and leaves frequently came out our faucet. But hey! At least we had water in the house and didn't have to walk to a watering hole (been there and done that too, but only a handful of times). The hot water was what made us smile the most too! So I agree, WONDERFUL!!!

The panels are both Goal Zero. Both gifts too! I plug them into a GZ guardian and hook the leads to my battery.


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## peripatew (Nov 9, 2015)

SA Condor said:


> At that time we had a 2 ½ year old and a newborn! We have 3 now. I was surprised at how easy it was for me to adapt. I didn't have ANY nice lights back then, it would have been a fun place (absolute darkness) to have an awesome light to light up the night! My wife struggled a bit though, but hey, she had just delivered a baby in a third world country and was having to adjust to everything. Laundry by hand was no easy task! We did get a propane refrigerator after several months. Before that, we just made sure there was no leftovers. When I finally booked up a propane water heater, my wife was thrilled! Although most of the time our water pressure was too low to kick in on. Sticks and leaves frequently came out our faucet. But hey! At least we had water in the house and didn't have to walk to a watering hole (been there and done that too, but only a handful of times). The hot water was what made us smile the most too! So I agree, WONDERFUL!!!
> 
> The panels are both Goal Zero. Both gifts too! I plug them into a GZ guardian and hook the leads to my battery.



Is the plug from the solar panel proprietary GZ?


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## moldyoldy (Nov 10, 2015)

Peripatew, a correction to one of my recommendations above:

Somewhere up above I referenced the DROK USB V/A meter available on Amazon. I believe I recommended the more expensive unit between the ~$10 and ~$13 units. I was wrong on the features allocated to each one. Both of them have the V/A readout (Red/Blue respectively). Only the $10 unit has the maH readout and other display possibilites. The $13 unit dropped the maH recording in favor of being able to supply the high-current charge rates as found in the Samsung S4, etc. On my laptop screen the Amazon-displayed products are identical. The correct $10 unit has the small button on the top right of the unit to select possible output options. 

Having said that, I really like the DROK unit viz-a-viz, say, the Portapower unit which I also have. However although I have a Samsung S4, I really do not need the high-current charging although that can be impressive for charging speed.

I discovered my mistake with my latest Amazon order. Apologies!


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## bykfixer (Nov 10, 2015)

moldyoldy said:


> Peripatew, a correction to one of my recommendations above:
> 
> Somewhere up above I referenced the DROK USB V/A meter available on Amazon. I believe I recommended the more expensive unit between the ~$10 and ~$13 units. I was wrong on the features allocated to each one. Both of them have the V/A readout (Red/Blue respectively). Only the $10 unit has the maH readout and other display possibilites. The $13 unit dropped the maH recording in favor of being able to supply the high-current charge rates as found in the Samsung S4, etc. On my laptop screen the Amazon-displayed products are identical. The correct $10 unit has the small button on the top right of the unit to select possible output options.
> 
> ...



Ya just never used to the shock of 70° water do ya?

In an all electric home without power due to a major hurricane late one summer...that was the only thing I didn't adapt to.

Don't know how in the world how in the world Cap't Winters stayed clean shaven at the battle of the buldge. Guess he sharpened his razor everyday.


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## braddy (Nov 10, 2015)

From the book 'Shifty's War: The Authorized Biography of Sergeant Darrell "Shifty" Powers '.


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## SA Condor (Nov 10, 2015)

peripatew said:


> Is the plug from the solar panel proprietary GZ?



I'm not sure. I've got everything packed up right now, tomorrow when I get home (or sooner if something happens in our road trip) I'll try and take a look. I don't own any of the other brand portable panels though to verify. We'll see!


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## etc (Nov 11, 2015)

They love AA and AAA cells in third world countries. 

Nothing exotic. No 123s, no Li-ions, no high-powered anything. A long-lasting 1xaa or 2xaa light or a headlight running on aa or aaa cells.


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## more_vampires (Nov 11, 2015)

etc said:


> They love AA and AAA cells in third world countries.
> 
> Nothing exotic. No 123s, no Li-ions, no high-powered anything. A long-lasting 1xaa or 2xaa light or a headlight running on aa or aaa cells.


Maybe skip batteries alltogether and go for a supercapacitor flashlight plus solar and vehicle charging options? Supercap lights charge wickedly fast, on the order of seconds/small minutes.


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## peripatew (Nov 11, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Maybe skip batteries alltogether and go for a supercapacitor flashlight plus solar and vehicle charging options? Supercap lights charge wickedly fast, on the order of seconds/small minutes.



Recommendation?


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## more_vampires (Nov 11, 2015)

Most supercap lights I've seen are homemade. There are very, very few factory options for SC lights, afaik.

One that comes to mind was made by 5.11, but they discontinued it. 

There's a ton of writeups at places like instructables.com and such. Perhaps give it an eye, it might be perfect.


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## SA Condor (Nov 12, 2015)

Hey peripatew, have you contacted wakawaka yet? I just sent them an email. I'll see how they reply. 

I made it back safely, LONG trip! The Goal Zero Guardian connects via their 8mm charging end. I do not know if that is compatible with other brands.


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## SemiMan (Nov 13, 2015)

-----


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## more_vampires (Nov 13, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> ... and they have zip in the way of run-time as the energy density of current supercaps is but a small fraction of current battery technology.
> 
> Given you can charge certain lithium battery technologies on the order of 50+ watts in something of the form factor of a flashlight, there really is no practical benefit to a supercap in a flashlight.
> 
> Semiman


Does that matter if it charges in 90 seconds, such as the 5.11 "Light for life"


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## SemiMan (Nov 13, 2015)

-----


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## more_vampires (Nov 13, 2015)

Ah, 90 minutes is 0. Got it.

I suppose this thing doesn't work, either.
http://inhabitat.com/15-year-old-develops-hollow-flashlight-powered-by-body-heat/


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## Poppy (Nov 13, 2015)

etc said:


> They love AA and AAA cells in third world countries.
> 
> Nothing exotic. No 123s, no Li-ions, no high-powered anything. A long-lasting 1xaa or 2xaa light or a headlight running on aa or aaa cells.





more_vampires said:


> Maybe skip batteries alltogether and go for a supercapacitor flashlight plus solar and vehicle charging options? Supercap lights charge wickedly fast, on the order of seconds/small minutes.


Since we had already discussed the fact that rechargeables is the only way to go because the AA cells that are available there are really crap, and that AAA batteries have only 1/3rd the capacity of AA batteries, when etc made his suggestion above, I thought that your's was a facetious response.

The OP wants a relatively high powered mid-range "search" light. I never heard of the 5.11. The only commercially made capacitor light I have ever seen was a shake light. There were a couple, and the best was a low lumen light that got reportedly long run-times that was sufficiently bright to find a key hole when holding the light an inch or two away.


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## more_vampires (Nov 13, 2015)

Hey, the way I see it is that a light is a light is a light. If you're in darkness, you light a light. Doesn't matter if it's a fire-on-a-stick. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...Fire-on-a-stick-Review-A-Layman-s-Perspective

The advantage of light is being able to see. A high powered mid-range search light and


> Nothing exotic. No 123s, no Li-ions, no high-powered anything.


 don't mix as far as I know. I'd love to see an alkaline superblaster, but didn't think there was such a beast. If one did, wouldn't it kill the batteries really fast? Alkaline isn't known for handling decent current drain.

As such, wouldn't we have to go for more practical solutions? Pak-lite super on low mode with 1 year of continuous runtime on energizer ultimate lithium? I hear these are pretty popular in the 3rd world.
http://9voltlight.com/

If you need light, get one and turn it on. That's the way I see it, at least.


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## SemiMan (Nov 13, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Ah, 90 minutes is 0. Got it.
> 
> I suppose this thing doesn't work, either.
> http://inhabitat.com/15-year-old-develops-hollow-flashlight-powered-by-body-heat/




Actually where the OP is going, no it would not work that well when it is hot out since it needs a differential between your surface body temp and the air temp in order for it to work.

What does 90 second, and 90 minutes have to do with anything? ..... are you even trying to understand what I am writing???

The very best supercaps are not even 1/10 the energy density per KG of the best batteries. When you look at practical and available, the range is more like 20:1 or worse. So you are suggesting carrying something that is 10-20 times heavier? ... and 10-20 times larger for a given amount of storage?

Please tell me the practical advantage of a supercap in a flashlight .... because fast charging is not an advantage when you have little storage capability. Whether you put 1000 joules into supercap or a battery, you still have 1000 joules to use and from a practical standpoint, you can put them just as fast into the battery as into the supercap (we are talking flashlights). Only difference is, for the same size and weight, the battery holds 20,000 joules if needed. On the other practical side, the battery has a flatter discharge curve which generally works better with electronics/LEDs. Disadvantage is the battery may have a larger internal resistance, but even that is not a given with a small high capacity super-cap. There is a trade-off between energy density and storage capacity.

Semiman


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## more_vampires (Nov 13, 2015)

> ..... are you even trying to understand what I am writing???


You're just logging in to disagree with people as usual. 



> Actually where the OP is going, no it would not work that well when it is hot out


The point was that the body heat light runs on a supercap. Also, you just said that thermoelectric doesn't work. So cool water and fire don't exist in the third world? What of the power generation and rechargeable lights that you put on a campfire?
http://www.instructables.com/id/Battery-Charger-Powered-by-Fire/



> What does 90 second, and 90 minutes have to do with anything?


You're being dismissive as usual.



> Please tell me the practical advantage of a supercap in a flashlight


I already have.



> because fast charging is not an advantage when you have little storage capability.


Fallacious. You pop it on the storage battery and you're ready to rock some more.



> Whether you put 1000 joules into supercap or a battery, you still have 1000 joules to use and from a practical standpoint, you can put them just as fast into the battery as into the supercap


Incorrect. You just said batteries charge as fast as supercaps and this is not so. I need an 18650 3000+ mah that charges in 90 seconds. Show me where it is and I'll buy it.



> So you are suggesting carrying something that is 10-20 times heavier? ... and 10-20 times larger for a given amount of storage?


Have you ever even LOOKED at any supercap light designs? None of them are as you describe. They are pretty much universally LIGHTER than battery lights.

Sigh. Semiman, you seem to hate me.  What did I ever do to you?

Do you think it's wise to callously discard possible options off-hand? I don't. I don't think that way.


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## etc (Nov 13, 2015)

I wasn't clear if the OP wanted a light for himself, or to bring to a 'third world country'. Maybe both.

I realize what his request is, but the customer is not always right. I think a good candidate light for such conditions is Gerber Infinity Ultra, or something similar to it. You can use alkalines and NiMH if you want in it, any AA chemistry. That is assuming finds its power sufficient, I realize there is a good chance he doesn't. in which case other good suggestions have been made in this thread.



> Since we had already discussed the fact that rechargeables is the only way to go



yeah, it's called Eneloops. Use it when you can, use alkalines or 'heavy duty' if you have to.


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## SemiMan (Nov 13, 2015)

Yes SIGH .... because you refuse to actually try to understand what is being written and just react without thinking and unfortunately that means spreading of false information .... period.

I log in to provide people with valuable and accurate information. That you have frequently and vehemently supplied inaccurate information is not my fault .. it's yours. I would rather the OP and others have accurate information on which to make decisions.

REALITY: From a practical standpoint, where a flashlight is concerned, the charge rate ... the only one that matters, joules per second, is going to be the same. I can reliably charge A123 18650's at 10A with good efficiency. Even 20A is possible. With a 2x18650, that means 70-150 watts charging ... for a small flashlight. High capacity supercaps in the size range of an 18650 are rated at about the same 10-20 amps. Again, practically no advantage.

REALITY: High capacity supercaps in the size of say an 18650 have similar ESR (or worse) than said A123. There are lower capacity supercaps with better ESR, and there are high capacity supercaps with worse ESR.

REALITY: Even at high charge rates, lithium batteries have good charge efficiencies and as above have similar ESR losses.

REALITY: I never said supercaps do not work, I said they are impractical and offer no real benefit. I never said that thermoelectrics do not work either .... I said that if it is hot outside, the flashlight linked ... will not work. Which is true. Cool water and fire? So I need to throw my flashlight in my precious cold water, then dump it in the fire to charge it? ... not very practical. A small solar cell would be far more useful.

REALITY: Self discharge on super caps is way higher than batteries.

REALITY: Energy density by weight and volume of batteries is 10-20X that of a supercap.

REALITY: They are lighter because they have no storage capacity. I can make a rechargeable coin cells lithium-ion flashlight .... how much lighter do you need?

REALITY: I am not callously discarding ideas, I am applying logic, knowledge, and engineering to analyze. Feel free to do the same to promote supercaps.

"Pop it on the storage battery and your ready to rock some more"? ... what storage battery? Why not just charge a high capacity battery directly so you don't need to "pop it on a storage battery". 

PLEASE CLEARLY ANSWER: What practical advantage does a super cap have over a well chosen battery in a flashlight .... because you may think you have told us, but you have not.


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## SemiMan (Nov 13, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> ---- double post deleted.


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## more_vampires (Nov 13, 2015)

I agree, etc. Eneloops and a Foursevens Quark, perhaps? Really efficient light, great low mode support. Nice long low runtimes. Unfortunately, nowhere near a search light. 



> REALITY: Energy density by weight and volume of batteries is 10-20X that of a supercap.


So? So what? Burning alcohol has less energy density than gasoline. It still burns. Whatever, man.



> "Pop it on the storage battery and your ready to rock some more"? ... what storage battery? Why not just charge a high capacity battery directly so you don't need to "pop it on a storage battery".


Apparently, you missed where we were talking about solar charging, vehicle charging, and storage batteries.

Cut the hostility.


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## HKJ (Nov 13, 2015)

I did include some supercaps in my battery test:

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Cooper 300F supercap UK.html
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Maxwell 3000F supercap UK.html

The last one has about the same energy as a eneloop, but is a bit larger:





You can charge and discharge it at above 200A


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## more_vampires (Nov 13, 2015)

HKJ said:


> I did include some supercaps in my battery test:
> 
> http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Cooper 300F supercap UK.html
> http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Maxwell 3000F supercap UK.html
> ...


That is awesome, sir.

2200 amps?!?? WOW! What kind of LED array would we drive with THAT?


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## SemiMan (Nov 13, 2015)

-----


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## Greta (Nov 13, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Cut the hostility.



Ditto! That goes for EVERYONE!!! Getting really tired of having to remind some of you over and over and over ad nauseum! Presentation is everything - LEARN IT!


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## HKJ (Nov 13, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> I believe this is their current state of the art production units: http://www.maxwell.com/images/documents/K2_2_85V_DS_3000619EN_3_.pdf
> 
> It's only a bit bigger ... 23.5 times the volume of the Green 18650 shown in the same picture.



It is exactly the same size as the capacitor in the picture, but has 13% more capacity (Cannot match a EneloopPro yet).


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## more_vampires (Nov 13, 2015)

HKJ, sir, as one of the most respected battery guys of CPF could you tell us offhand one of the fastest charging 18650 batteries and at what rate?

I know slow charging helps battery lifespan, but how hard can we put the pedal to the metal and on what battery? Safely?


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## Camo5 (Nov 13, 2015)

I would suggest the convoy s2+ or blf A6 (1x 18650) for your powerful light. Pick up a charger like the nitecore or xtar, they all work great. Make sure they can connect via ciggarette port or usb.

Definitely splurge on a $60 10-15 watt solar setup that can charge at 5-15v (direct to car battery) or go all out and put a sunpower 280w panel on your truck.
Get some rechargeable nimh for your other lights.

I don't have any experience with car battery banks, but 160 wh is average for a lead acid that size.


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## SemiMan (Nov 13, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> I agree, etc. Eneloops and a Foursevens Quark, perhaps? Really efficient light, great low mode support. Nice long low runtimes. Unfortunately, nowhere near a search light.
> 
> So? So what? Burning alcohol has less energy density than gasoline. It still burns. Whatever, man.
> 
> ...



Someone not agreeing with you and using sound logic and engineering to disagree with you is not being hostile.

I have been reading and following the thread from the beginning, and I am considering the ops requirements.

The typical usage for a flashlight: Charge it .... then use it somewhere where charging is not an option. Typical requirements are 
- meeting a given brightness level
- meeting a minimum run-time requirement at that brightness level
- being able to put enough charge into the storage system (battery, supercap, whatever) to meet that run-time requirement

From a practical standpoint:
- Size of the storage unit
- Available charging power at the appropriate voltage

... a supercap, for a flashlight does not offer and advantage. 1/20th to 1/10th the storage capacity is for most a huge show stopper. That is the difference between a useful 1 hour of run-time and 3-6 minutes of runtime. I don't think you want to run back to your storage battery every 3-6 minutes to charge your supercap. It's not very practical, is it?

Again, given roughly equivalent sizes, say that of an 18650, and picking state of the art lithium tech with a high capacity same size super-cap, I can't jam charge into the super cap any faster. If they are both on the charger 30 seconds, both will run my light at the same brightness and for the same amount of time. The difference is, I can leave the lithium on for 5 minutes, and go 10 times as long, or 10 minutes and go 20 times as long. I have that flexibility. Sure there are some supercaps that can charge really fast, maybe 10-15 seconds, but then I am at that 20:1 (or worse) ratio ... so 3 minutes of light in the same size. That is not very practical.

The supercap does have very high cycle life, but if you charge most batteries to only 10%, they have high cycle life too ....100K+ cycles with some lithiums.


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## more_vampires (Nov 13, 2015)

> I don't think you want to run back to your storage battery every 3-6 minutes to charge your supercap. It's not very practical, is it?


http://www.led-resource.com/2011/02/5-11-tactical-light-for-life-pc3-300-review/


> Output: 200 lumens peak, 70 lumens standard, 20 lumens low, 150 lumens strobe
> Runtime: 13min peak, 45min standard, 4h low, 2h 15min strobe
> Battery: Capacitors
> Length: 8.75″
> ...



I've decided I'm going to build a supercap light. I will giggle when I charge it on a campfire.

Better yet, I'll send it to Vinh and see what he can do with it.


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## SemiMan (Nov 13, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> http://www.led-resource.com/2011/02/5-11-tactical-light-for-life-pc3-300-review/
> 
> 
> I've decided I'm going to build a supercap light. I will giggle when I charge it.
> ...



Let's see ..... 8.75 inches long, 1.2" in diameter, 70 lumens, 45 minutes, 10 oz ......


I will take that, and raise you a Prion P1: https://www.foursevens.com/manuals/Manual_Preon Series_20120323.pdf

3 inches long, 0.55" in diameter, 70 lumens, 48 minutes, 1.1oz with the battery .....


For reference, that is 1/14th the total volume and 1/10th the weight approximately ... and yet the same performance. That sort of makes my case doesn't it. Feel free to show some practical numbers for a supercap flashlight the size of a P1.

Semiman


p.s. That review (and I assume the marketing information) are not accurate either. Their claim of "due to the fact that capacitors do not deteriorate over time and never need to be replaced" is not true. Supercaps most definitely degrade over time. That Maxwell cap loses 20% capacity at 25C after 10 years charged. At the rated 65C, that rapidly drops to 1500 hours, <0.2 years.


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## more_vampires (Nov 13, 2015)

> Feel free to show some practical numbers for a supercap flashlight the size of a P1.


I have an antique vehicle. It runs, it gets me places. Just because the BMW HP4 Superbike exists doesn't invalidate my antique. There's more to life than what you're admitting.

You're extremely closed-minded sir.

I can take wild game with a bow and arrow. That still works, though gunpowder was invented.


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## HKJ (Nov 13, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> HKJ, sir, as one of the most respected battery guys of CPF could you tell us offhand one of the fastest charging 18650 batteries and at what rate?
> 
> I know slow charging helps battery lifespan, but how hard can we put the pedal to the metal and on what battery? Safely?



I do not remember charge rates for the different cell, but look at high current cells.
Samsung INR18650-25R is rated at 4A rapid charging with 60 minute charge time.
A123 APR18650 1100mA can also be charged at 4A, but due to the low capacity the charge time is 15 minutes. (This cell has lower voltage than normal LiIon cells).

Using special algorithms (High current for the first XX percent charge), you can get even faster charge rates, but manufacturers do not publish these specifications.


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## SemiMan (Nov 13, 2015)

-----


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## more_vampires (Nov 13, 2015)

HKJ said:


> I do not remember charge rates for the different cell, but look at high current cells.
> Samsung INR18650-25R is rated at 4A rapid charging with 60 minute charge time.
> A123 APR18650 1100mA can also be charged at 4A, but due to the low capacity the charge time is 15 minutes. (This cell has lower voltage than normal LiIon cells).
> 
> Using special algorithms (High current for the first XX percent charge), you can get even faster charge rates, but manufacturers do not publish these specifications.


Thank you sir. According to the first link, you charged the supercap at 1 amp and it was done in about 8 and a half minutes on the Cooper cap.



> I only charge with 1A current, it is possible to charge considerable faster.


I find myself wondering how much faster, say at 4 amps like the Samsung INR18650-25r?

Do we know max charging rate for that example capacitor?


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## HKJ (Nov 13, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Thank you sir. According to the first link, you charged the supercap at 1 amp and it was done in about 8 and a half minutes on the Cooper cap.
> 
> I find myself wondering how much faster, say at 4 amps like the Samsung INR18650-25r?



Supercaps are not like batteries, you can basically charge it at maximum current until it is full, for the above 3000F capacitor that means 40 seconds at 200A to go from empty to full (You might have some trouble getting a 200A charge station and connection).
Compared to batteries the problems is much lower energy storage and a linear discharge curve.

For a flashlight it can be fine if you only want short runtime between (fast) recharges, i.e. it is place in a charge station in a car and you just grab it for a short look around, but if you need some more runtime a capacitor cannot match a battery.


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## SemiMan (Nov 13, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> You're extremely closed-minded sir.



You really need to stop with the personal attacks. It's getting tiring and only comes across as deflection from the real discussion, i.e. the practical validity of supercaps for a flashlight (especially for the ops requirements).

I have a bow as well, and a rifle. I don't hunt, but if I had to to eat, I would be taking the rifle, not the bow.

I also have a very high end turntable .... and use it every once in a while .... but really it's there for art. From a practical standpoint, and even an audio quality standpoint, pulling uncompressed digital off my server is far more convenient.

That said, I am not sure equating supercaps to a Model-T is a good way to advance your argument.

In my mind, a better equivalence, is the supercap is a dragster. Over a 1/4 mile, nothing is going to beat it. Unfortunately, that is all it does well. Alternately, it's a superbike, with a very small gas tank. Again, phenomenal for very short runs, but not practical for a long cross country trip where gas stations may be infrequent.

A high rate lithium flashlight would be the Porsche 918. Super fast when needed .. not dragster fast, but fast, yet still able to deliver pretty good fuel economy for what it is while carrying two in comfort and able to make long cross country trips.


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## more_vampires (Nov 13, 2015)

HKJ said:


> For a flashlight it can be fine if you only want short runtime between (fast) recharges, i.e. it is place in a charge station in a car and you just grab it for a short look around, but if you need some more runtime a capacitor cannot match a battery.


That's how the vehicle fast charge station for the 5.11 lights work. I hate that it got discontinued before I could get one. I could see it as one useful tool among a selection of equipment for the case of being in and out of the vehicle frequently.



SemiMan said:


> You really need to stop with the personal attacks.


Check my post history, you'll find I'm universally friendly. I'm convinced you're targeting me, 3 moderator warnings in a couple months? Drop it, man. We're trying to talk about technology.


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## SemiMan (Nov 13, 2015)

-----


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## SemiMan (Nov 13, 2015)

-------


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## Greta (Nov 13, 2015)

ENOUGH!!! more_vampires - YOU have received your share of warnings as well! One more "dig" by either one of you and you will BOTH be given some time off! BOTH of you are mucking up an otherwise decent thread where others are TRYING to share information! 

FINAL WARNING SEMIMAN AND MORE_VAMPIRES!!


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## SemiMan (Nov 13, 2015)

Have you looked at the large semi flexible solar panels? They don't completely bend like the Goal-Zero units, but they can take abuse like a bit of bending, indirect rock hits, etc. 

I am not up on who is selling them these days, but here is an example: http://www.sawtechnology.com/100w SemiFlexSlrpnl.html

I would assume you could order something tolerable out of China and likely easier for shipping than Bolivia?

The ones I linked have fairly high end cells, but something more cost effective will be out there. You will need a charge controller at these power levels. I used one a few years back on a project where vandalism (kids throwing rocks) was a concern. You can have some cracking of the cell and still maintain fairly high power as the contacts are distributed across the solar cell. If you want it flat, you could put it on a rack and have it semi-permanently on your truck ... maybe a sheet of polycarb for more protection.

There are a bunch on ebay at various cost points: http://www.ebay.com/bhp/semi-flexible-solar-panel

They are not as thin as a unit, but if you get one with a junction box and removable wires, but that would allow you to easily change wires, connectors, etc. 

The one's using SunPower cells are likely to be the smallest and are likely to take the most abuse due to the contact method. It looks like there are some reasonable prices on them.

Semiman


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## bykfixer (Nov 13, 2015)

Can we just delete the page 4 biggest fish story comments?

The man is in a 3rd world country situation where simplicity, and reliability are key.

The rest of us can meet in New Jersey or Oklahoma or somewhere the eternal generator is usually on. There we can discuss which deal does what. When done we can stop by a filling station to gas up our cars, get some coffee and go about normal life.

But periptaw is in a place where mosiquitos take prisoners and the eternal generator works part time. Apparently internet is spotty at best. So dude don't have time to read a debate. 
I say "you think he oughta use a cap, mail him one. You think he oughta have a BLF, mail him one." Then when he has both power _and_ internet he'll report back. 

Until then please debate through PM's so Greta doesn't have to boot two very informative members.

Please! With sugar on top.

Ps, I made a friend that way recently...about this thread...now I know where enquire about fixing broke down Ford cars n vans.


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## Greta (Nov 13, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> Until then please debate through PM's so Greta doesn't have to boot two very informative members.



Those two "very informative members" are the ones mucking everything up - so I'm not so sure how "informative" they are. The way I see it, they are more disruptive than informative. And no, I do not want to come back to this thread again. If I have to, it will be to ban a couple members and close the thread down.


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## peripatew (Nov 15, 2015)

Flashlights have left the USA and are on there way to me. Hopefully will have them in less than 24 hours! I'll post back after I've sufficiently nerded out. Thanks for all the help everyone. I'm still trying to source a car battery based power pack.


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## TheShadowGuy (Nov 15, 2015)

Glad to hear it peripatew! Hopefully it exceeds expectations.


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## peripatew (Nov 18, 2015)

Lights have landed! Thanks to bykfixer, my kids have been running around the has day and night with their new flashlights (he graciously donated several lights!). We've got all of our bases covered now.

And I'm _really_ enjoying the EA81. This is by far my largest flashlight, but it actually feels well balanced. It slips into my pants pockets (synthic pants, I don't wear jeans in this heat!) quick and easy with the head up. I purchased the NiteCore diffuser as well which gives me a perfect amount of throw when needed, and crazy flood at the same time. It will reach to the far far end of my street. I've picked up the NiteCore DC4, which is my first decent charger, and I'm quite happy with it. Part of me wishes I would have done with the XTAR VC4 so I could see the battery capacity, but I'm thankful enough for this charger. I also snuck in 2 RCR123A's, and my Sunwayman v11r is quite happy. 

I did also order some usb light bulbs to try out, but unfortunately they were delivered late and missed getting in the suitcase. Maybe they'll make there way over here in January. The LED light bulbs are available here, but not sure how to go about wiring theming for USB.

I'm also still trying to acquire the car battery based power pack. I've got a place in Australia that's willing to ship me one, but the shipping is $250  I got a clip-to-the-battery dc adapter for now, so I can charge phone/batteries/etc from the truck/other battery.

Woo for new lights! (I'm still very interested in trying out a 18650 light, either the MH20 or the S30R. But I just depleted my flashlight budget for the foreseeable future!)

Thanks so much for the information and recommendations!


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## Poppy (Nov 18, 2015)

peripatew said:


> Lights have landed! *Thanks to bykfixer*, my kids have been running around the has day and night with their new flashlights (*he graciously donated several lights!*). We've got all of our bases covered now.


:thumbsup:


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## bykfixer (Nov 18, 2015)

peripatew said:


> Lights have landed! Thanks to bykfixer, my kids have been running around the has day and night with their new flashlights (he graciously donated several lights!). We've got all of our bases covered now.
> 
> And I'm _really_ enjoying the EA81. This is by far my largest flashlight, but it actually feels well balanced. It slips into my pants pockets (synthic pants, I don't wear jeans in this heat!) quick and easy with the head up. I purchased the NiteCore diffuser as well which gives me a perfect amount of throw when needed, and crazy flood at the same time. It will reach to the far far end of my street. I've picked up the NiteCore DC4, which is my first decent charger, and I'm quite happy with it. Part of me wishes I would have done with the XTAR VC4 so I could see the battery capacity, but I'm thankful enough for this charger. I also snuck in 2 RCR123A's, and my Sunwayman v11r is quite happy.
> 
> ...



^^ cool! 
Having fun on a serious mission. Good on you bro.



Poppy said:


> :thumbsup:



Awe shux poppy, you're making me blush.


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## peripatew (Dec 26, 2015)

I thought I'd toss out an update. I am LOVING this flashlight. Just spent 2 days in the jungle, carving our own road through dense bush and fallen bamboo. I was with a team of vehicles, and this light was perfect for helping guide people through some difficult terrain. We drove until 12:30am, so it got used a lot! It's definitely not a 100% all rounder, as there where times where I needed my headlamp to have my hands free. But, I used it far more than anything else. Several vehicles had various lights mounted, but the flexibility of a hand cannon was much more beneficial. 

I keep the diffuser mounted and tethered to the wrist strap, which makes the light even better. Yes, it's a wee bit big, but it slips into my pocket just fine. 

I also was able to pickup the ArkPak battery system, which has been great as well. Runs lights and fans when the power is out, and comes with me into the jungle. I've used it to jump cars, run my air compressors, and charge some batteries too.


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## TheShadowGuy (Dec 26, 2015)

That's great to hear! Thanks for the update!


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## bykfixer (Dec 26, 2015)

Merry Christmas!!!

Glad you guys are doing well. 

It sounds like you are a guiding light...pun intended.


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