# Why are Wicked Lasers so much more expensive? - longish post, sort of.



## Comidt (Jun 7, 2007)

*Long Post Advisory: Do Not Read this post unless you want to, well it's not that long, no it's not long at all, or is it?*​ 
HI
A while ago, at a Laser Show, the presenter guy thing showed us a green 'lab laser' that could burn through a piece of cardboard, I was so impressed and when I got home, I immediately started looking at how much these cost. Then I stumbled accross Wicked Lasers, and man, I couldn't believe my eyes, I mean a laser that can pop a balloon, Wow 
That was like a year ago, but since over the last few months, joining all these kind of forums and stuff, I found out that there are many companies that offer lasers like that.
Now I wanted to know, why are Wicked Lasers so expensive? If you compare to others, they are at least $150 for the same thing (in higher power only though).

OK
An X-Series 125 from Nova Lasers is only $299
http://www.novalasers.com/NOVAstore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=3&idproduct=88

An Alpha Series 125 from Nova Lasers is only $369 and that has other cool things on it too, looks stronger
http://www.novalasers.com/NOVAstore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=7&idproduct=53

A Viper 125mW from Dragon Lasers is only $299
http://www.dragonlasers.com/viper

An Optotronics PPL 125, okay but this is like a 100% duty cycle laser is amazingly less than a Wicked at $489
http://www.dragonlasers.com/viper

And a 125mW Fusion from WL is $500, with a Evo 125 at $550
http://www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/Executive_Series-55-3.html

So what is up with WL, what makes them think they can charge so much more.
The Spyder is another whole thing I mean, check:

Dragon Laser Hulk 200-300mW is $849
http://www.dragonlasers.com/hulk

Optotronics RPL 260 is $1079
http://www.optotronics.com/r-lithium-ion.php

And Nova Series 250 is $1000
http://www.novalasers.com/NOVAstore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=4&idproduct=54

Guess What a Spyder GX is a whopping $1699
http://www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/Spyder_II_GX-26-21.html

Now for that price you can get a:

Nova Series 325mW and save $100
http://www.novalasers.com/NOVAstore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=4&idproduct=56

Optotronics RPL-325 and save $50
http://www.optotronics.com/r-lithium-ion.php

So now I ask you again, who the flip do Wicked Lasers think they are, what makes them so much better? What are these other companies like, is there just something dodgy about them or do Wicked Lasers just market better??

Once again sorry for the long post, I just don't understand why they charge so much more...
Thanks 
Jonno


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## Tropmonky (Jun 7, 2007)

First off, I don't own a WLaser but do own a few lasers myself ranging from 5mw on up to 100mw.

It seems that they have very high prices for a few reasons. I believe they do check their lasers more than many other vender's before they ship them out. But the biggest reason I personally see is they have inflated the prices so that massive discounts can be setup. They also do something called "Wicked Bucks" where you earn $ (wicked bucks) towards items they sell by using their forum and by forwarding online clicks to their website. Basically to help promote their products using their loyal fans, haha. 

Beyond that, they do seem to have a high level of quality, but figure all the prices you see on the site are super inflated because of the built in kickbacks.

Personally I just couldn't pay the $ they were asking for a 100mw greenie, so I purchased mine on ebay from a reputable seller for HALF the cost and have been VERY happy with the purchase. Now I'm looking for a VERY powerful red laser module (100mw-250mw).

Anyone else have anything to add to this?


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## Gazoo (Jun 7, 2007)

Yeah, and for $1,389.00 one can get a LaserGlow Hercules-300. The specs on that thing are just incredible.


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## Comidt (Jun 7, 2007)

I see.
Oh yeah, thats the name, Hercules, I was looking for that, but I couldn't remember the name.
tropmonky, why don't you make a Laser from a DVD Diode, as far as I know, they average at around 150mw?

Jonno


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## knot (Jun 7, 2007)

Once upon a time, electronic calculators started at $200.00. The initial cost was to cover R&D and tooling. 

HID technology is relatively new to the public but the prices are now dropping. One can buy one for less that a hundred dollars now.

Once something becomes mass produced by many competitors, the price has to come down or that company will go out of business - unless, of course, they continue to advance "cutting edge"


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## Aseras (Jun 7, 2007)

You are paying for name brand and coolness. functionality on the other hand doens't always work out to match the price.


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## TITAN1833 (Jun 7, 2007)

well i owned a 60mw wicked laser,now i regret selling it,they just seem to be so well made and the beam was flawless.it also popped ballons.but i did not use it for that.i used it for work.saying that i do own a 120mw i got of ebay about a year ago.and i have to be honest and say its holding out pretty well.oh and this one will burn your skin,but" disclaimer" not recommend :shakehead . i do think its a lottery if you buy a cheap one.


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## LiteTheWay (Jun 7, 2007)

Well, my EnVee 100 is also very well made, high quality etc ... and about half the price of anything from WL. And LucentOptics have great service whereas WL have been found wanting I am told.


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## picrthis (Jun 9, 2007)

7histology said:


> Well, my EnVee 100 is also very well made, high quality etc ... and about half the price of anything from WL. And LucentOptics have great service whereas WL have been found wanting I am told.


+1


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## SenKat (Jun 9, 2007)

I do not own any wicked products - the only Wicked laser I ever owned was purchased second hand from ebay - it was a CNI styled Nexus 95mw. That was a nice laser, and I regret ever selling it to continue my quest for more power ! I fell in love with the CNI styled lasers at that point - and I see no reason other than greed for Wicked's products to be priced as high as they are - their "Sonar" description even states that they SCAVENGE the Blu-ray diode from existing optical equipment in order to make the Sonar - why would I pay $2,000.00 for a "tossed together" product ? I can either make my own, or buy one pre-made on ebay from Huerrsciences for around $350.00 last I checked is what folks are b idding up his blu-ray/Dorcy mod pointers. The amount of mark up is ludicrous to say the least. There was recently a not posted by Wicked, asking people to leave out the "issues" part of posting on their forum - and to contact them directly instead of airing their dirty laundry. Check out their forum to see what I mean. I DO understand when a company pleases someone - that their happy customers stand behind them, defend them, and love them without exception - after all, I love NOVA Lasers specifically for that reason - they have GREAT products, and stellar service. I see why folks can love Wicked - I am not among them, as I have not purchased from them since I found the other companies selling competitive products, and not from Wicked. I am saving up my "Wicked Bucks" to buy one of their lasers - as I cannot justify spending that much of MY money on a product that is reported to be inferior in many ways.


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## Comidt (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks Senkat
I kind of thought that.
It seems like Nova Lasers sell some quality stuff. I like the Alpha Series. Good Prices too
I have seen on Laser Community, I've been there for a year or so now.
Thanks
Jonno


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## picrthis (Jun 16, 2007)

As I posted about this subject before, it's easy to sum up why with one simple word; GREED! :shakehead


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## chuck (Jun 16, 2007)

Not greed. The price is set at what the market will bear. In fact, I applaud them!

People are willing to pay for the Wicked LASERs. Consequently, they can charge the higher prices. Whether that price is justified, is immaterial...

Simple supply and demand.

-- Chuck Knight


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## picrthis (Jun 16, 2007)

chuck said:


> Not greed. The price is set at what the market will bear. In fact, I applaud them!
> 
> People are willing to pay for the Wicked LASERs. Consequently, they can charge the higher prices. Whether that price is justified, is immaterial...
> 
> ...


So that is why Gasoline is high right now too then, using your theory. It's what the market will bear, I think NOT in both cases.....it's still *GREED*.


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## SenKat (Jun 16, 2007)

I agree with both points, it is a mixture of greed, and of market demand. As we see more companies offering quality products, we will see the prices become more competitive !


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## Bimmerboy (Jun 16, 2007)

Exactly!... it's greed! Take BMW for example. They shouldn't exist to make as much profit as they can, based on people's free choice to buy or not. They should be there only to make me happy, and make as little profit as possible to stay in business. How dare they!

I just don't get it... you know... people trying to make money.


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## picrthis (Jun 16, 2007)

Bimmerboy said:


> Exactly!... it's greed! Take BMW for example. They shouldn't exist to make as much profit as they can, based on people's free choice to buy or not. They should be there only to make me happy, and make as little profit as possible to stay in business. How dare they!
> 
> I just don't get it... you know... people trying to make money.


Too funny, I wouldn't compare my BMW against a Ford; not even in the same league. BUT a WL compared against one sold by say Nova or others that sell CNI's is different. OK so wl makes their own now, so they claim; still pretty much a cni laser, except for the lower quality level. 

The Chinese are great at copying other products, they call them knock-offs; difference here is instead of a better price, they actually increased the price while lowering the quality. The whole thing is actually kind of funny to me, kind of reminds me of fleabay and how people will out bid each other to just win the bid, and in a lot of cases they simply could have gotten it cheaper elsewhere, and much safer too. I'm sure WL laughs each week when they do their bank deposits, I would.


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## Bimmerboy (Jun 16, 2007)

pic - Although I'd say your reply doesn't have a heck of a lot to do with the "greed" issue, _in and of themselves_, I agree with your points... all except for the very last sentence.

You make it sound as if WL is doing something slimy, sneaky, etc. Ultimately, the implication is *bad*. Bad, bad, greedy WL... hey, they're Wicked, right? "Laughing all the way to the bank", somewhat insultingly implies WL thinks everyone who buys their product is stupid, and they're just exploiting the sucker born every minute principle. I do have a different take on it.

Is WL the highest quality? No. Does WL offer the lowest price for what you get? No. But that's for the more educated consumer to know. What Wicked has done, in essence, is to bring a recognizable brand name to the green laser market. And the name does get around. I've personally heard people who know nothing about lasers, say the name "Wicked Lasers". It's catchy. They've also managed to get some degree of visibility through major channels (think: PC Mag, etc.).

Blah blah blah, long story short, they had a plan, took some risks, made a few correct moves, developed a brand, raised more awareness of green lasers to the masses than any another brand, and in the process helped competition to flourish to the point where the market now offers 30mW +, "bang for the buck" greenies for less than $30 USD.

This is bad? This is what sooo many people call "greed"? What of all the people that buy WL's? Are they all just idiots? The way I see it, not everyone has the freakin' time to learn all about lasers. The average person sees WL advertised somewhere, thinks it's cool, and buys one. Done deal, to mutual benefit... the seller gets paid accordingly to how cool the person thinks a green laser is, and what it's worth to him... another way of saying "what the market will bear".

To be quite blunt, Marxist class envy-speak is getting quite a bit tired by now, isn't it? Let's not beat around the bush, and call it straight, eh?

Edit: BTW, what Bimmer ya' got?... hehe.


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## chuck (Jun 17, 2007)

picrthis said:


> So that is why Gasoline is high right now too then, using your theory. It's what the market will bear, I think NOT in both cases.....it's still *GREED*.



Actually, there are several forces involved in the price of gasoline, not the least of which is the shortsighted nature of some politicians who have hindered the building of refineries, our refusal to drill for domestic sources, our near total dependence on middle eastern oil (political instability in the region affects production), our own government interference in the free market, etc. But, I'm not going to debate that...it's not relevant to this discussion.

The relevant part is, that people have not significantly (if at all) reduced their consumption of gasoline. In fact, its sale has increased in the more recent weeks, despite the higher price.

Much as I hate to say it (especially just having put $50 in my tank) we, as consumers, have decided that the higher price of gasoline is acceptable. We may complain about it, but we are still willing to pay it. The market *is* such that this price has not curtailed gasoline usage.

Same goes for Wicked LASERs. While some of us may not like it, WL has created a niche market for themselves, built a brand, and has a successful business based around selling LASERs at prices that are higher than their competitors.

It's not always the best thing, to be the lowest bidder.

I'll say it again, BRAVO for them. They're providing a decent product (not complete junk), at a higher price than comparable units, and their customers are HAPPY to pay it. Something they're doing, must be right...

WOW...maybe I need to copy their business plan! 

-- Chuck Knight


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## nero_design (Jun 17, 2007)

Wicked were one of the VERY first companies to offer such low prices for lasers. I found them when searching around in this forum here on CPF. Wicked also have a fairly loyal fanbase for their products, most being 'hobby-laserists' but they supply millitary and commercial interests whilst also selling similar products (*not the millitary ones) to the public.

As for pricing, Wicked often kept their pricing below that of the other manufacturers for a LONG time (years). Many of the other sellers of green lasers were "modding" their lasers to get them to output higher figures and the resulting "Modded/tweaked" lasers would be short-lived and prone to power fluctuations and self-destruction. Wicked gained a quick name for themselves by using OEM diodes (unmodded and therefore more stable and far longer lived) which was tough for the other manufacturers to beat for a long while.

Recently, the competitors dropped their prices which usually resulted in a drop from Wicked to undercut them although this was usually aimed only at suppliers trying to undercut in the first place. Many of these sellers would (and still do) make little profit in order to grab sales from Wicked. Wicked in the meanwhile had been building their own manufacturing facility and now produce their own lasers rather than buy units and diodes from CNI like almost all the other laser sellers were doing. 

The Spyder is waterproof. That's a pretty big deal all by itself. Beautifully made (in my opinion) for a portable self contained laser. It's SO LIGHT and very compact as well. Something that the competition is certainly not.
The first incarnation of the Spyders was rather amazing in it's day (about a year or two ago) and it was machined from a solid brass slug. Today's Spyder MK2 is so light that I thought the box was empty when it arrived. The quality of build, diode and function is really very nice.

I've dealt with many other suppliers and the simple fact remains that there's a LOT of garbage being passed on for merchandise and most of the suppliers have little or no after-sales service. Wicked have generated a nice reputation for themselves based on their product and their customer support. Some of the other suppliers ignored my original laser enquieries and others lied to me about their lasers capabilities. Some of the people I communicated with actually ignored my polite questions and I was buying for a legitimate use and application at the time.

Plenty of suppliers can (and will) sell you a 10mW lasers and stick a <50mW sticker on the laser unit. This is dishonest but technically they're not lying because the unit is still under 50mW (as stated). But I prefer to get exactly what I pay for and if there's an issue, I expect it to be dealt with. Many people forget that laser diodes are unfortunately prone to a high level of defective production (same as solar panels) and that many sellers simply don't care if you 'bought a dud'... that's why aftersales service is so important with these devices.: There's always a probablility that your unit may possess a defect and therefore, for the high dollars involved, you want to get the output stated plus immediate replacement i the unit shows any signs of defects.

There's a couple of GOOD suppliers you mentioned on your list - and a few not-so-good ones as well.... but each product (even with the same outputs) has pros and cons. Do your research before buying. And DON'T buy on EBay unless you trust the seller... some are even trying to sell off lasers using Wicked's product names but are in no way affiliated. This attests to the name od the company and how it's products are perceived by others.


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## Kiessling (Jun 17, 2007)

As usual we'd trefer it if politics were to be left out of this discussion. Thanx and carry on ...
bernhard


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## Comidt (Jun 17, 2007)

Isn't Nero_design the mod on Laser Community?


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## picrthis (Jun 17, 2007)

Yes he is, hence his long post.


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## Kiessling (Jun 17, 2007)

picrthis ... name calling and ad hominem attacks are not welcome on CPF. Please edit your post accordingly.
Thank you.
bernhard


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## jellyfish414 (Jun 17, 2007)

I've seen lots of folks on the WL forums claim to receive underpowered or defective lasers. I don't own any high powered lasers but would be curious to know who Nero thinks has worse QC or customer service than WL (this is not to say WL has poor QC or customer service, but he plainly stated that others are worse).

So far the main benefit to WL is that the Spyder is apparently waterproof. Please rase your hand if you have the burning desire to take your 200mw green laser under water?


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## nero_design (Jun 17, 2007)

jellyfish414 said:


> Please rase your hand if you have the burning desire to take your 200mw green laser under water?



Actually, I like the fact that fog-juice, water vapour, dust, dirt/lint & other airbourne residue cannot penetrate the Spyder casing. A few people have tested the Spyders underwater and the 30mW Blue Spyder is absolutely ideal (both in output and in wavelength) for scuba and snorkelling with fish and squid/octopus. Even if you're not an underwater photographer, an underwater laser is quite a useful tool. If you use lasers with no set duty cycle, the odds are that you will end up running them clamped to apparatus in a room filled with atmos (fog/smoke etc) and eventually, a film will build up on the aperture of the laser so there's logical benefits as well.

/Actually, WL is known very well for it's customer service. It's the reason I started buying from them myself. The only person I personally saw rejected by that service was a scammer who was trying to get a free laser after his original was delivered. I'm sure that this sort of situation would be the bane of any seller too. Folks, I came here to CPF to find out about lasers years ago. I modded my first laser from instructions I found here and I learned a bit about the new green DPSS portables which have only surfaced in recent years. I found Wicked Lasers through here as well.

/I've been asked to moderate a number of laser forums but politely declined the others due to prior commitments. Perhaps if I had accepted them all, I wouldn't be accused of bias "cheerleading"?


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## SenKat (Jun 17, 2007)

I believe the original question that started this thread has long ago been answered, hasn't it ? This thread will only degrade further into mud-slinging, name calling, and even more erroneous facts and claims if left open much longer. Sorry, I know my post doesn't do much to contribute, but to sum it all up - Wicked is more expensive because they are still paying off their R&D team, their marketing folks, and the people are willing to pay the price for the lasers that Wicked sells. That is pretty much it.

My $.02 (U.S.)


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## Comidt (Jun 18, 2007)

Yeah, my question has been answered, let's lock/close the thread...
Jonno


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## Kiessling (Jun 18, 2007)

I can understand the desire to have this thread locked, but the long term experience shows that there will be others just like it, so we will leave it open as long as it remains "civil". For now.

Unfortunately WL do polarize the laserist community to an extend that has disrupted this place more than we can tolerate.

bernhard


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## picrthis (Jun 18, 2007)

Kiessling said:


> picrthis ... name calling and ad hominem attacks are not welcome on CPF. Please edit your post accordingly.
> Thank you.
> bernhard


Ahhh a phrase in Latin huh? Didn't think anyone used phrases like that anymore......glad senorship is still alive and well.


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## picrthis (Jun 18, 2007)

nero_design said:


> Actually, I like the fact that fog-juice, water vapour, dust, dirt/lint & other airbourne residue cannot penetrate the Spyder casing. A few people have tested the Spyders underwater and the 30mW Blue Spyder is absolutely ideal (both in output and in wavelength) for scuba and snorkelling with fish and squid/octopus. Even if you're not an underwater photographer, an underwater laser is quite a useful tool. If you use lasers with no set duty cycle, the odds are that you will end up running them clamped to apparatus in a room filled with atmos (fog/smoke etc) and eventually, a film will build up on the aperture of the laser so there's logical benefits as well.
> 
> /Actually, WL is known very well for it's customer service. It's the reason I started buying from them myself. The only person I personally saw rejected by that service was a scammer who was trying to get a free laser after his original was delivered. I'm sure that this sort of situation would be the bane of any seller too. Folks, I came here to CPF to find out about lasers years ago. I modded my first laser from instructions I found here and I learned a bit about the new green DPSS portables which have only surfaced in recent years. I found Wicked Lasers through here as well.
> 
> /I've been asked to moderate a number of laser forums but politely declined the others due to prior commitments. Perhaps if I had accepted them all, I wouldn't be accused of bias "cheerleading"?


Speaking about my own recent experience on WL's, I'd have to say they have the worst "Customer Service" around bar none, or should I say a lack of it. I placed an order for 2 Core Lasers, got doubled charged for shipping, emailed them about it, 4 days later was told they credited the overage back to my CC. Next over a period of 3 weeks I waited & waited for the 2 day trip for my Lasers to arrive, which never happened. I was told several times in email, which I still have copies of, not to worry they will arrive someday and that they gurantee the arrive time, I was told that in 3 emails, plus transcripts in 3 chats I had with them. Plus I was lied to saying they sent it out UPS, but no tracking # given to them by UPS. Next I'm told sent out USPS, no tracking # given to them by USPS, 2 weeks later I'm told not to worry because of the gurantee, then I ask for tracking # yet once again and was told they don't use tracking #'s, bull!

I finally canceled the order after all the games they played with me. 4 Days after I canceled the order I get email from someone in the NY Office who said yes they do use tracking #'s & he checked and they somehow missed my order. He did offer to send it out then, but well over 3 weeks had went by & I then declined and told him to contiune with the cancel the order, that I had enough of this. I asked what happened to the gurantee they kept referring to, I was THEN told there is none, I sent them copies of their emails & transcript chats and asked why was I told so then, NO reply.

Now I get my CC statement in the mail, and what a surprise, 1st they never credited back the overage shipping charges as they said they did, 2nd I got charged for the whole entire order that they finally admitted they never really did ship. I emailed them 3 times what happen to the credits, no answer of-course; now they have to deal with my bank instead. I called my bank and they said there are no pending credits from them, it's been over a month now. 

So YES they are the worst as far as I'm concerned. I've moved on & purchased from AtlasNova, and had the product in hand, in 2 days flat & couldn't be happier. You can read on their own forums about alot of problems too, and recently their asking people not to post their dirty laundry, to send private email instead; I guess it's hurting sales when someone reads there is lots of problems. I'd stay clear of them like the plauge, and I do feel I'm entitled to my opinion here; nuff said I've moved for this subject.


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## jellyfish414 (Jun 19, 2007)

Funny how they make it sound like you're calling a huge company like Dell. So WL apparently has hundreds of employees and offices on every continent yet they can't even ship your order. 

Then you have Atlasnova, which is one guy and his wife who gets it to you in 2 days flat. Makes you wonder what those hundreds of folks at WL are doing exactly. My guess? There really isn't an army of WL employees - it's just act that allows the owner to take less personal responsibility.


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## picrthis (Jun 19, 2007)

jellyfish414 said:


> Funny how they make it sound like you're calling a huge company like Dell. So WL apparently has hundreds of employees and offices on every continent yet they can't even ship your order.
> 
> Then you have Atlasnova, which is one guy and his wife who gets it to you in 2 days flat. Makes you wonder what those hundreds of folks at WL are doing exactly. My guess? There really isn't an army of WL employees - it's just act that allows the owner to take less personal responsibility.


AMEN, Thanks for your positive comments.


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## Kiessling (Jun 19, 2007)

picrthis ... make yourself familiar with the rules, please, especially those dealing with the discussion of moderative actions and those about language and posting style on CPF.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but you will be required to present it in a acceptable manner for CPF. Failure to comply will result in the removal of your posting privileges.

bernhard


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## picrthis (Jun 19, 2007)

Kiessling said:


> picrthis ... make yourself familiar with the rules, please, especially those dealing with the discussion of moderative actions and those about language and posting style on CPF.
> 
> You are of course entitled to your opinion, but you will be required to present it in a acceptable manner for CPF. Failure to comply will result in the removal of your posting privileges.
> 
> bernhard


Got caught up in the moment, sorry about that.


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## nero_design (Jun 20, 2007)

*Picrthis*, not much I can say other than that I had the OPPOSITE results to your problem:

Re: Your Experiences...
Atlasnova was polite (he's VERY respectable) but unable (unwilling?) to supply me with anything remotely near the output of what I was after at the time - he offered me 18mW and I wanted 100mW+. Wicked were quick to answer my questions and sent me my first items immediately. They even talked me down to a lesser model than what I was prepared to buy. It certainly wasn't about the money to them. I'd like to make that quite clear because I bantered with them over this in detail. Dozens of shipments later spanning a few years, only *one* was delayed by a week or so and they emailed me to let me know of the delay. I have that same first-order item (<95mW green laser which outputs 120mW) in my pocket now and it's still working like a gem a couple of years later.

Re: Prices & Original Topic...
WL used to be (I haven't compared prices beyond what has been posted here by the OP) extremely well priced, hence so many people bought from them before there were more sellers in the field, although having worked in Retail years ago, it always amazed me how many people wanted to buy high end jewelery and pro-rated cameras etc for the price of a meal at McDonalds... figuratively speaking. EVERYONE wants the cheapest price made by the top manufacturers but ALL are first to bemoan their problems when the product doesn't live up to their expectations. You really do get what you pay for. 

* I purchased a cheap laser display system last week from China (random supplier) which literally came apart in transit due to the wrong screws being used to secure the internal transformer. I could afford the problem because it was inexpensive to begin with and I bought it solely for the purpose of determining construction quality alone as I would like to have passed some of these on to others. (It's up and working perfectly now but it was an interesting and potentially hazardous experience). In the end, it's always going to come down to 'money' for general consumers and 'quality' for collectors & legitimate users/industrial applications (ie, not shining it around the room and 'popping balloons' - how I hate that wretched theme - etc).

I can't explain how anyone costs their items nor how they determine their prices to begin with because I haven't been involved in the trade myself but the dollars we're talking about don't seem to be too contrasting when comparing sellers. They're all pretty much in the same ballpark to me. Especially when there's so many inferior products out there (be it parts, materials, life expectancy or overdriven issues). It's places like here at CPF where you can find this sort of information though so there's a lot of good that can be done by discussing the strengths and shortcoming of various sellers and manufacturers, let alone legitimate personal experiences. This is also where I started out when researching my first portables.


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## nero_design (Jun 20, 2007)

I found this quite by accident today... and it might answer the original poster's question about why Wicked's SPYDER series is more expensive than the competition:







I'm fairly certain that this Tesla feature is only on the Spyder models. It was not possible to capture/cut & paste the text from the pop-up so I've screencaptured it for you. Not your typical TE cooling I suspect.


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## picrthis (Jun 20, 2007)

nero_design said:


> *Picrthis*, not much I can say other than that I had the OPPOSITE results to your problem:
> 
> Re: Your Experiences...
> Atlasnova was polite (he's VERY respectable) but unable (unwilling?) to supply me with anything remotely near the output of what I was after at the time - he offered me 18mW and I wanted 100mW+.
> <snip>


 The fact that AtlasNova didn't have what you were looking for wouldn't have bothered me. He apparently told you he didn't carry that model/power and you move on. It would be like going to Sears, they don't have the model lawnmower you want, you leave the store and go down the street to Homedepot and you find they have the model you want & buy it, no big deal. He didn’t take you money and tell you he ordered it, and it never arrived. AtlasNova has proved themself's to be top notch in customer service to me.

In my case however WL did have the model I wanted, took my money, lied & lied, and after nearly a month of excuses and lies about guarantees, not to worry etc, and after I canceled; they finally admitted they never shipped, too little, too late. Yes they finally offered to ship 30 days later, which at that point I declined, after all the lies; could I trust they were really going to ship if I said yes?
Their track record with me for the last 30 days showed otherwise. Still to this day now, they won't answer my emails about my money; I was forced to turn the matter over to the Bank to resolve it. Buyer Beware, if your order goes wrong and you cancel; you'll have to fight to get your money back. I guess they feel I didn't take "their deal" so they kept the money, fortunately my Bank feels differently.

Remember this was all on a Domestic order, I shutter to think if this was an overseas order.

Looks like I'm not the only one who has ran into this same problem with WL trying to get a core from them.

Another fellow CPF'er appears to have the same problem with WL that I had. Read the post from *yaesumofo*;
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/164813&page=2


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## bootleg2go (Jun 20, 2007)

nero_design said:


> I found this quite by accident today... and it might answer the original poster's question about why Wicked's SPYDER series is more expensive than the competition:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know I may be a biased source. being a competitor and hope this is not taken as "stirring the pot", if so I apologize; but this picture alone only means that WL published this on their website, it is not a cause or reason for their higher sales price. 80% of people believe 98% of what they see & read that's posted on the web. Those who delve deeper by doing some world wide patent and patent application searches will learn differently about this and find out there are no "patents pending" on this, or at least none that have even been applied for as of yet.


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## stephenmadpotato (Jun 20, 2007)

Also they are completely IR free, and they rate their lasers power on the AVERAGE amount, not what they peak at. New Wish lasers are rated at their peak.


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## jellyfish414 (Jun 20, 2007)

Hey Bootleg2Go, they also claim a patent on their 5mw Core laser. If you check out USPTO.gov or Google Patents you'll find nothing under Wicked Lasers.

It is illegal to claim a patent where there is not one because it stifles competition. As a competitor in the same marketplace you could have justification to file suit against them.


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## picrthis (Jun 20, 2007)

bootleg2go said:


> I know I may be a biased source. being a competitor and hope this is not taken as "stirring the pot", if so I apologize; but this picture alone only means that WL published this on their website, it is not a cause or reason for their higher sales price. 80% of people believe 98% of what they see & read that's posted on the web. Those who delve deeper by doing some world wide patent and patent application searches will learn differently about this and find out there are no "patents pending" on this, or at least none that have even been applied for as of yet.


Your not stirring the pot in my opinion and I also went to the patent site and found nothing. I take almost everything with a grain of salt found on the internet, it's too easy to "publish" anything, doesn't make it true.


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## picrthis (Jun 20, 2007)

jellyfish414 said:


> Hey Bootleg2Go, they also claim a patent on their 5mw Core laser. If you check out USPTO.gov or Google Patents you'll find nothing under Wicked Lasers.
> 
> It is illegal to claim a patent where there is not one because it stifles competition. As a competitor in the same marketplace you could have justification to file suit against them.


Considering ALL of Wicked Lasers, Laser pointers are Illegal in the USA and many other countries, with possibly the exception of the Core; I haven't had the time to see IF they received approval from the FDA to market it in the USA yet; they would have been issued an approval number/certificate which will be on file with the FDA. Maybe they have who knows, I really haven't checked yet. However I would see no point in them getting a patent on products that are clearly illegal in their current configurations.
Thus the reason why WL purposely falsifies the Customs Declarations Form on their products shipped out of China. Sooner or later Customs will catch on to them, and will probably flag all shipments from them.


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## nero_design (Jun 20, 2007)

I anticipated that this would pan out to be another Wicked Bashing thread. The questions remains as to whether or not this was the original intention in the first place. I'd have to say that it was. 

/Yes, ALL class 3b portable lasers are restricted in the USA. No exceptions.


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## picrthis (Jun 20, 2007)

nero_design said:


> I anticipated that this would pan out to be another Wicked Bashing thread. The questions remains as to whether or not this was the original intention in the first place. I'd have to say that it was.
> 
> /Yes, ALL class 3b portable lasers are restricted in the USA. No exceptions.


Sorry you took it that way, I don't think the original intention of this thread was to bash. As for me, I have only stated in truth what has occurred with WL's and their dealings with my order, and I did respond to how they ship their product, again all of that was/is based on the truth.

I didn't accuse you of bashing AtlasNova when you didn't get the exact model you wanted simply because they don't carry them. The only reason I made the post that upset the moderator was, one I got caught-up in the moment, and two it seems anytime sometimes tells of their bad experience with WL, someone comes out of the woodwork to call it bashing, I guess the truth hurts; it usually does at first. However I was only trying to let everyone know it is not as rosey with WL as some may have you believe.

I have received a lot of supportive private emails for having the guts to tell my story, because most are afraid of getting banned from the forums. So they choose not to post about their bad experience, which isn't really fair to the average person looking around to purchase a Laser. A long time ago I felt different too about WL, until after a fair amount of time reading this forum and numerous others, including WL's own Forum, a different picture developed. Yet still I was caught up in it (marketing hype), I'm gonna try one anyhow and well I'm not gonna dig it up again; I wish I listened to my gut feeling, which usually is correct.

There is another side to WL that is not always being presented, and the person that presents it gets clobbered for it. It should not be one sided, it defeats the purpose of the forums.

Peace brother, I don't mean any malice towards you.


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## teaken (Jun 20, 2007)

picrthis said:


> I have received a lot of supportive private emails for having the guts to tell my story, because most are afraid of getting banned from the forums. So they choose not to post about their bad experience, which isn't really fair to the average person looking around to purchase a Laser. A long time ago I felt different too about WL, until after a fair amount of time reading this forum and numerous others, including WL's own Forum, a different picture developed. Yet still I was caught up in it (marketing hype), I'm gonna try one anyhow and well I'm not gonna dig it up again; I wish I listened to my gut feeling, which usually is correct.



Well said, and i've heard this same story on other forums told far less delicately . This sort of information needs to be made public regardless of the seller/retailer so others can avoid the same pit-falls.
There seems to be two distinct categories of internet retailers, the first being those who admit their mistakes and are transparent when it comes to owning up to them and making amends. This first group of sellers builds a reputation on their merits and through positive feedback on forums such as this. The second are those who won't admit to their mistakes and will do anything to avoid taking responsibility. These sellers build a reputation by deception and manipulation of the truth. I won't go as far as to place WL in either of these categories, i think this thread provides the information necessary for anyone to do that for themselves.
Unfortunately it isn't always obvious what sort of retailer you are dealing with thats why sharing information where others can have access to it is of benefit to everyone, I hope others continue to inform us of bad experiences regardless of the seller.


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## jellyfish414 (Jun 21, 2007)

Nero, I'm curious how you'd address the patent issue. You're the one who brought it up, saying it's what justifies the cost. Well these patents clearly do not exist. This portion of their marketing is purely fictional - a lie if you will.

How does pointing this fact out constitute unfair WL bashing? You're the one who inserted this talking point into the conversation.

For the record, I could care less what WL charges for their products. No product is overpriced when people are willing to pay for it.


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## Kiessling (Jun 21, 2007)

picrthis said:


> I have received a lot of supportive private emails for having the guts to tell my story, because most are afraid of getting banned from the forums.



I sure do hope no one fears trouble or even banning from the administration of this board for expressing their opinion !?!?!?!?!

We require non-adult language and good behaviour and always support the Golden Rule ... we have restrictive policies about the laser forum for legal reasons ... but we do not suppress opinions not do we ban because of opinions. 

It is partially true that this laser forum on CPF is a somewhat restrictive environment, but it is never a place of favoritism or censorship. If you feel otherwise, please contact a staff member addressing the situation at hand so that we can look into it.
We are not perfect and mistakes do happen. 

bernhard


P.S.: one thing ... discussion about the problems of other fora on the net is not welcome on CPF. Just to make sure ...


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## nero_design (Jun 22, 2007)

I'm not upset with anyone here guys. There's not a lot that happens these day that surprises me (other than waking up blind one morning... because I consumed too much sugar). I'm sorry if you had a bad experience *Picrthis*. I would also have found that situation with your WL order annoying at the least. I recommend Arnold quite a bit to certain people because he has a great reputation and it wasn't his fault if he couldn't help me at the time.

*Jellyfish414*, I believe the Patents are Pending which means the persons registering the patents are awaiting due process. I could be wrong but I don't think Pending Patents show up on public searches until they are processed, only Govt searches will reveal the Patents Pending so that other patent potentials can be advised against registration.

Also, if you're so fond of Patents in the USA, check out the guy who Patented "The use of a laser pointer to exercise a domestic cat" ---- I cannot believe the US Government allowed such a stupid patent to process. Yes it's real because I saw it myself when doing a Patent search about 3 years ago.


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## bootleg2go (Jun 24, 2007)

nero_design said:


> *Jellyfish414*, I believe the Patents are Pending which means the persons registering the patents are awaiting due process. I could be wrong but I don't think Pending Patents show up on public searches until they are processed, only Govt searches will reveal the Patents Pending so that other patent potentials can be advised against registration.



Hi Nero,

I've posted the link to the page where all patent applications can be searched as soon as they have been applied for. This form will search any patent application that has been applied for in any country.

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.html 

Below is the definition of "patent pending" courtesy of wikipedia.

"The expressions "patent pending" (sometimes abbreviated by "pat. pend." or "pat. pending") or "patent applied for" refer to a warning that inventors are entitled to use in reference to their product or process once a patent application has been filed, but prior to the patent being issued or the application abandoned. The marking serves to notify potential infringers who would copy the invention that they may be liable for damages (including back-dated royalties), seizure, and injunction once a patent is issued. Fraudulent use of the patent pending warning is prohibited by the law of many countries and inventors should be cautious when marking products or methods that may arguably not be covered by any pending patent application. In some territories, e.g. the UK, a warning notice should ideally mention the number of the pending application"


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## jellyfish414 (Jun 24, 2007)

Bootleg is correct regarding the difference between "patented" and "pantent pending." That Wicked Lasers claims to have any patent or patent patent pending seems to be a matter of pure fiction. Or more simply put - a bald faced lie.

I do a fair bit of work in the field of patents and have even worked as an expert witness in a few (alleged) patent infringement cases. From time to time people ask me my opinion on their patents and more often than not they are useless. It is fairly easy to have your patent issued; but it is another matter entirely for it to stand up in court. A patent only covers what it claims to in the application. If someone can create the same product using slightly different means or to accomplish a slightly different purpose than your patent covers, it is technically not infringing on your patent, even if the new product exists as a direct competitor to yours.

Creating a solid patent is expensive and time consuming; defending it in court is exponentially more expensive in time and money.

I really highly doubt Wicked Lasers has ever even applied for a patent. First of all, I don't believe the laser market is large or innovative enough to justify getting a patent. Second, WL does not appear on any patent or patent-pending database I know of; even on the paid services I subscribe to. Third, this "Spartec" thing which they claim to have a patent on sounds remakably like the APC feature that have been available on other branded lasers for at least a year or more. Why would they want to patent something which already exists in the marketplace? It would just be dumb.


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## nero_design (Jun 25, 2007)

Do you two know just how many subsidiary companies Wicked Lasers run? Furthermore, there's about 45-70 related patents by numerous applicants for specialized TEC Laser cooling related applications lodged in the US alone, some as recently as last year... feel free to take your pick. Have you actually bothered to contact Wicked to ask them yourself?

When filing patents for my father's companies years ago, we would choose specific companies to hold the patents depending on their intended future and current purpose (both company and product). The parent company's name (if it was a public face) was rarely applied to the patent. Usually the inventor's name and the chosen Assignee (registered business name) appeared on the application. The company manufacturing the devices, or even licensed to produce them, is often not listed in correlation to the patent registration. Fail is fail.

/Tastes like prawns. Nice trawl though.


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## Comidt (Jun 25, 2007)

Can I please ask people to stop attacking Wicked Lasers here?
All I wanted to know why they charged more, I now know and I don't understand why such a thread has turned into an ugly battle of the mod of LC and the members of CPF...
I know that WL has a cult and that people are willing to spend money to support their favourite company.
I don't know about the patents, I also couldn't find any info on either of them, but I DO NOT want to get involved.

Thank You
Jonathan Schmidt...


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## nero_design (Jun 25, 2007)

I agree that it's a bit of a shame. Part of the problem is that this forum is regularly trawled by different manufacturers hoping for exposure or to vulture the sales from individual customers so unfortunately it's getting harder to put forth or receive an unbiased opinion. Keissling (the CPF Laser Moderator) has always had to keep an eye on things here to prevent threadjacks etc. but they happen from time to time... as you can see. I'm a member here and have been since my first exploration into portable green lasers.

There's a few good sellers out there who have good products if you can just read around the spam and those who spread it around. I'd suggest talking to people who have owned the products that interest you and making your mind up based on their genuine experiences. It helps to take on board negative feedback on products though because if you ignore negative feedback from owners, you could end up disappointed when you eventually purchase something. I did a bit of research here on this forum before buying my first lasers and I might suggest you do something similar. 

All the best.


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## Kiessling (Jun 25, 2007)

I think the time for this thread has come. See you all in the next one.
Closed.
bernhard


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