# How do I quad bore Mag Tubes?



## Ogg Vorbis (Dec 20, 2007)

Hi, first let me introduce myself...

I've only been a member of CPF for a short while, and my interest in lights and grown and grown in the past few months and i've slowly began to build a nice little collection of lights. Numai Q3, Fenix P2D RB100, Fenix L0D rebel, Ultrafire Alpha C3, Mag 2AA with Nitize Drop in, to name a few. I recently bought a Mag 2D and 8AA to 2D battery holder from a fellow CPFer, this is now of course a nice ROP :naughty:

However, the battery pack is a rather tight fit in the tube as you can imagine, so i would like to quad bore it.

Now for the important bit... I am an apprentice mechanical engineer, training in milling and turning, so I am quite capable of the task and I’ve got support there when I need it. Plus I’m able to use the machines for personal use (occasionally). So my questions are:

1. Is it done by jig boring?

2. What pitch circle diameter are the holes done on?

3. What's the diameter/radius of the cutter/holes?

4. How far does the depth of cut need to be for a 2D mag?

I am however new to jig boring but I’ve got some great guys to turn to.

Any help would be great and just make the process easier, less trial and error really. So if anyone can help? Please feel free to post if you don’t mind sharing your secrets, otherwise PM me?

Kind Regards, and thanks

Daniel


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## will (Dec 20, 2007)

You should be able to answer your own questions by measuring the battery pack you have. The amount taken out of the Maglite body is not all that much and the measurements are not all that critical.

I don't have one here to measure, so I am not able to give you numbers.


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## Ogg Vorbis (Dec 20, 2007)

hmm good point... i guess it's just easier to ask sometimes...

i'll just have a measure later on then.

I wouldn't have thought the amount coming out would be much, the battery pack fits as is. Just hope it doesn't cut through the threads...


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## will (Dec 20, 2007)

The ones I have seen have cut through the threads.


(tri bores do --- thanks Mac)


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## cmacclel (Dec 20, 2007)

Tri-Bores cut through the threads quad's do not.

Mac


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## Ogg Vorbis (Dec 21, 2007)

Nice one, that'll make de-burring a little easier then :thumbsup:

I've had a measure, i figure maybe a depth of cut of around 0.5mm, giving an extra 1mm space for the batts. The wall thinkness of the mag tube is approx 2.5mm so there's plenty to play with.

Just got to wait untill the new year now... :sigh:

Thanks everyone!


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## Data (Dec 21, 2007)

Ogg

Please post pictures of your machining setup when you get it going. We would love to see it.

You should be able to bore the tube with a 4 jaw chuck and a boring bar.


Cheers
Dave


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## cmacclel (Dec 21, 2007)

Data said:


> Ogg
> 
> Please post pictures of your machining setup when you get it going. We would love to see it.
> 
> ...




Dave I know this can be done but how would you set it up? also how would you index the tube over 90 degrees after each bore?

Mac


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## Data (Dec 21, 2007)

Mac,

I just thought that Ogg may have a really big lathe available like mine with one of those really large four jaw chucks. He could indicate in the tube by hand and then loosen it up to index it around by just eyeballing it. 

I bet you have a super nice fixture made up don't you!  


Cheers
Dave


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## cmacclel (Dec 21, 2007)

Data said:


> Mac,
> 
> I just thought that Ogg may have a really big lathe available like mine with one of those really large four jaw chucks. He could indicate in the tube by hand and then loosen it up to index it around by just eyeballing it.
> 
> ...




I tri-bore mine in my lathe using it like a horizontal mill. I have a vise mounted to the crossslide. I index the bodies in with a 360 degree protractor.

Mac


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## Data (Dec 21, 2007)

Mac

My mini-mini HID is very nicely bored. :twothumbs

If it were me, I would just put it in my mill. If it is too long I just hang stuff off the edge of the table. I think I could do up to about a 9" tube before I would need to hang it off the edge.


Cheers
Dave


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 21, 2007)

I mostly send mine to FiveMega for him to bore.

Another quick mention of the KD Brake Hone which I use under a trickle of water in the sink to wash away the aluminum powder, & keep tube cool. Hone is used with an ordinary portable drill, and gives a nice, diffuse enlarged I.D.


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## Data (Dec 21, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I mostly send mine to FiveMega for him to bore.
> 
> Another quick mention of the KD Brake Hone which I use under a trickle of water in the sink to wash away the aluminum powder, & keep tube cool. Hone is used with an ordinary portable drill, and gives a nice, diffuse enlarged I.D.



how long does it take to do the job?


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 22, 2007)

Data said:


> how long does it take to do the job?



Depends on the length. Around 15 minutes for a 1D, and about 20 mins for a 2D. You switch directions on the drill. One time I wrapped coarse (50 grit) cloth-sandpaper around the tripod stones, and went in the direction of how the cloth was wrapped, and that went even faster.


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## Ogg Vorbis (Dec 22, 2007)

Thanks for your interest and help guys...

I had thought about doing it on a lathe with a great big 4 jaw chuck, but why do it the hard way? I've just completed an ecentric turning exercise where i had to do one off-set and it was a nightmare. Doing it this way would mean having to clock it true, then offset it in one direction, machine, re-clock it true, do another off-set at 90 Deg and hope it was at 90. Plus you wouldn't be able to grip that hard as it would totally destroy the tube and the finish... not to say it couldn't be done though...

The way i plan to do it would be to grip it in a chuck on a milling machine, clock the head to the centre of the tube, then either jig bore it with 4 holes equispace on a PCD (hence the questions in post 1) or to mill it with a great big end mill.

As for pics, i will do my best to take some. I won't be doing it till i get back to work in the new year though... so you'll have to sit tight!

Cheers,

Danny


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## wykeite (Dec 22, 2007)

How do you think clocking will help? It doesn't come up to the mark at an exact degree point. I could get better accuracy from a couple of pencil marks than a clock gauge.

Rule number 1 is think simple. You don't need the accuracy you are trying to achieve. You need some clearance. KISS


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## Data (Dec 23, 2007)

Please do take some pictures.

I would use soft aluminum jaws on the 4 jaw lathe chuck (just use two jaws) and bore them to the diameter of the tube.


Cheers
Dave


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## gadget_lover (Dec 23, 2007)

The neat thing about quad boring with a 4 jaw chuck on a big lathe, is you can set it up once and then just loosen two jaws, rotate the maglight and tighten the jaws again. It should stay close enough to center that you don't have to even measure the 2nd, 3rd or 4th one. A simple pipe center finder will let you locate each 90 degree measurement.

Dan


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## cat (Dec 23, 2007)

Thanks, Ogg Vorbis. This thread is needed. For one thing, I've learned that tri-boring cuts into the thread. 

LuxLuthor, if the stock wall thickness is about 2.5mm, how much do you / can you take off with the honing?


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## Ogg Vorbis (Jan 2, 2008)

Hi all, and a happy new year! 

I went back to work today and got stuck into the 'idea' of quad boring. My initial direction was to look for a long series milling cutter, either slot or end mill, which i planned to run down the inside of the tube to cut the 4 grooves. After searching the factory, all i could find was a slot drill in overall length of 150mm, which was too short as the depth of the cuts needed to be around 140mm. You can't grip on 10mm! I did however find a really long imperial reamer, so i thought i might be able to use that.

So i set the milling machine up, but i just couldn't get a rigid enough set up, the mag body was waving all over. It all just seemed like too much messing about. So this is where i let us down...

I ended up putting the body in a great big lathe and boring the inside out with a nice big boring bar! I took off about 0.75mm from the diameter. 

Now i know most of you know what a lathe looks like so i didn't take any pictures... but i did take a picture of the end result (please excuse the quality, I took it on my phone... don't own a fantastic super duper camera yet )







The surface finish wasn't the best ever, but i was able to use some silicone paper to smooth it out a little. Isn't exactly a work of art but the battery pack fits nicely now and thats the main thing :thumbsup:

I think the 4 jaw chuck would be the best alternative. Once set up it would be easy to do a number of bodies. You'd just need a great big boring bar for those 3D Mags!

Thanks for watching!

Danny


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 3, 2008)

cat said:


> LuxLuthor, if the stock wall thickness is about 2.5mm, how much do you / can you take off with the honing?



However much you want. Remember this is an option for those that don't have a lathe. It's cheap, easy, and works. I don't see any practical difference between having discreet tri/quad grooves, vs. diffuse I.D. boring. I have done it for quad AA's and tri 2/3A cells.


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## cmacclel (Jan 3, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> However much you want. Remember this is an option for those that don't have a lathe. It's cheap, easy, and works. I don't see any practical difference between having discreet tri/quad grooves, vs. diffuse I.D. boring. I have done it for quad AA's and tri 2/3A cells.




So you have honed lights and fit 2/3 A cells? A cells are 17mm Diameter and from my experience require tri-boring? To fit these cells the threads in the tri-bored area are removed?? Huh?

Mac


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## unnerv (Jan 3, 2008)

For tri boring for A sized cells, I made fixture for my tool post to hold the mag body and put a boring bar I made in the chuck and tailstock. I suspect my setup is similar to what mac does.

For AA stuff, since the diameter does not need to go into the threading, I just use a fat home made boring bar and just make the whole ID big enough to accomodate the cells.

Originally I tried to do the tribore by offset in the 4 jaw, but you have to offset too much to be able to use the thru hole in the chuck. With a 2d mag that leaves 6 or 7 inches sticking out. It just was not ridgid enough, even with my 12 inch 4 jaw.


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## Northern Lights (Jan 3, 2008)

MAG BORING-I BUILT MY OWN MILL-PICT!


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 3, 2008)

cmacclel said:


> So you have honed lights and fit 2/3 A cells? A cells are 17mm Diameter and from my experience require tri-boring? To fit these cells the threads in the tri-bored area are removed?? Huh?
> 
> Mac



Yes, although the threads needed a touch of a dremel sanding drum at 120 degree marks. That took 30 seconds. It works with shrink over 2/3A cell labels.


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## cat (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks, everyone. I think this thread provides the information that's been lacking for beginners looking for some alternative to unobtainable/expensive bored mags for NiMH applications.


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## EXPY (Jan 6, 2008)

Interesting. I never thought about honing. I have used a 3 jaw on a Clausing Metosa 13" for a CR123 sized bore and the biggest, cheapest, carbide boring bar I had that fit.


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## bc5000 (Jan 6, 2008)

I tried a brake hone on my Mag 4D. Then I found the *Flex-Hone* at a tool store. It is so much faster, covers alot more area. It's kind of shaped like a brush and each nylon bristle has a little ball shaped stone on the end. Prob a couple hundred total. The actual honing part is 3" long and the shaft is 5". They come in many different diameters. I got the 1 1/4" and it was a tight fit until it got a little wore down. I had to use an extension with my drill to get all the way down in the 4D.
I had first used some really course sandpaper on a little sanding drum to do some fast cutting before I switched to the Flex-Hone. The hone really smoothed the bore up nicely and the stones still look almost new, hardly any wear. Until I get my battery pack from Lux, I'm not quite sure how much material that I need to remove.
http://flex-hone.com/brushes.php?c1=1


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## cat (Jan 6, 2008)

That's interesting, I didn't think they would remove so much, being just for breaking the glaze on an engine cylinder. Easier to keep aligned, and longer, like you say. 
Sanding drum...a flap wheel would probably be better. 
Anyway, please let us know how it goes.


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## bc5000 (Jan 6, 2008)

I never thought of a flap wheel, but then I don't remember seeing any anywhere. The sanding drum was the only thing I could find and it's really too small, at only 1" dia. The next size is too big, at 1.5".


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 6, 2008)

I saw those Flex Hones, but prices looked to be almost 3 times as much as the KD hones. My biggest concern with anything that grinds Aluminum is how it clogs up the sanding surface....so it seemed hard to justify the pricy flex hones if they could only be used 1-2 times.

bc5000, where did you get yours, and what price was it? I also see they have many abrasion surfaces...some of the really coarse grits would likely be great if they don't clog.

I could not find any sanding flap wheels that fit the 1 3/8" Mag D size.

Actually, here is a good price for a 20 grit that might be good. I'll call these guys tomorrow and ask their advice.


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## bc5000 (Jan 6, 2008)

I gave $15 for mine which was also the price of the KD brake hone. I got the Flex-Hone from a local store called Clarks Tools. Neither my brake hone or the flex seems to be clogging at all, maybe because as it clogs it's wearing down a little each time. Mine looks like it could do quite a few more Mag 4D's. The bristles are still stiff and it still holds it's original shape. The only thing is you can't replace the stones like on a brake hone.
I almost got the 1 3/8" but decided to go with the 1 1/4". When I got home I stuck the flex-hone barely into the bore with my hand to check the fit, and I didn't think that I was going to be able to pull it out.
You have to get the thing spinning before you insert it in the bore.


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## cat (Jan 7, 2008)

The original Flex-Hone (which seems what you've found there, LuxLuthor) was originally much more expensive than the traditional cylinder hones. 

Flap wheels:
MAG D 1 3/8" = 35mm 
You can get 30mm flap wheels. Industrial suppliers will have them. 
I checked my Cromwell catalog and they've got a mini flap wheel set with 10, 15, 20mm wheels. o_k._ Dremel size. I'm going to get one. I found that the little drum wheel that came with the Proxxon, when you use the front edge, the sanding band gets pushed back. 

http://www.cromwell.co.uk/YRK2201530K
3mm Shank, 6mm shank
30mm Dia x 15mm Height

http://www.cromwell.co.uk/YRK2207000K
8 Piece Mini Flap Wheel Set
3mm shank 
10 x 10mm: P60
10 x 10mm: P120
15 x 15mm: P80
15 x 15mm: P120
20 x 10mm: P60
20 x 10mm: P120
25 x 15mm: P80
25 x 25mm: P80

They seem to have taken away the pdf catalog pages. Thank goodness I saved so many of them. 
Unfortunately, no Cromwell distributor in the USA. The Kennedy tools they do are _very_ good.


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 7, 2008)

I talked to Mike at Flex-Hone about what I wanted to do, asking even about the 20 grit, and surprisingly he did not recommend any of his flex-hone tools for this application. He said they do very little removal once the plateau surface is reached. *BC, when you get the quad pack, let us know if you did get adequate bored out diameter, because I agree it would be a lot handier to use one of those.* 

He actually recommended the KD hone or trying to find a flap wheel, but it would need to be larger than 1 3/8 diameter to get enough even outward centrifigal pressure to abade all sides evenly, & simultaneously. I think you would need one that is 36-38mm wide which I have never seen.

However, following your lead, BC, I'm gonna try their 1 3/8" in 20 grit (Silicon Carbide) & 60 grit (Aluminum Oxide). The 20g in AO which he said would do better with not clogging with Aluminum is backordered 2 weeks. He said it will work better to get the 1 3/8" since we want close to 35mm diameter.


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## cat (Jan 8, 2008)

Flex-Hone is for removing glaze, not metal, when installing new piston rings. But that is hard steel, this is aluminium. An engine cylinder hone can remove more metal. 

Flap wheels, I think the diameter is the maximum, so a 40mm would work. 

20 grit is extreme. I'd go over it with 120 to smooth it a bit.


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 8, 2008)

Yeah, I'll go over it with the KD Hone....true about the intended use of flex-hones....but when did us custom modders ever pay attention to little things like intended uses? I want some of this extreme 20 grit action!!!  I have already done this with the KD hone, so this is more of a fun experiment to see if it is faster.

I have my doubts about the flap wheels fitting evenly....getting the right diameter, keeping it aligned in middle, and mainly clogging up. My dremel sanding discs are worthless after a few seconds with aluminum. I try to use the dremel carbide cutting blades whenever possible which don't get blocked.


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## cat (Jan 8, 2008)

Yes, good point - about keeping the flap wheel aligned etc. The diameter is always more than the depth. They're meant for burr removal and weld cleaning and so on, not concentric. 

Those sanding disks...what diameter are they? The same as the cutting wheels, I suppose. hmm, I think they're just too big to stamp out with a hole punch. _Make_ a big hole punch to do it. The Dremel stuff is _such_ a rip-off. ok, big hole punch. And a template to mark the centers.  Easy, but too heavy for shipping. ..._I_ know, just find some steel tube the right diameter, and sharpen one edge. 

 ya, that's the second time I've like Dremeled this thread. Maybe needs to be transplanted to the dead Dremel attachment thread.


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 8, 2008)

Well when I say sanding discs, I really mean any sanding paper/cloth/disc when used on aluminum clogs up. That's why I want to see how the Aluminum Oxide holds up to clogging on the Mags....the Flex-Hone guy said it will do well (vs. other hone surfaces).

With Dremel, I was talking about those small 1" x 1/2" wide discs. Personally, I love Dremel. Been using it more than any tool I have ever used over the last 2 years. Never had one before joining CPF, and I love fiddling around with all their assorted bits and things. The grinding/cutting wheels & sanding drum discs wear out, but everything else shows no sign of wear.


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## cat (Jan 8, 2008)

Al oxide does clog less than anything else. Use water - if it's wet/dry paper - for less clogging; it makes all the difference. 

When you're used to the full size things, the prices of the little Dremel things is shocking. The cutting wheels, the wear is relative - although they probably wear a bit quicker, relatively, than the full size ones. The full size ones get used up fast in fabrication and construction and so on. The smaller /10mm sanding drums are sold in packs of 100 by industrial suppliers.


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