# Nichia released Super-Flux 160lm/W



## ToTo (Jul 15, 2009)

http://www.led-tech.de/en/Light-Emi...er-Flux-LED--1-Chip-Technic--LT-1533_1_7.html

id realy like to see a keychain light with this


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## bshanahan14rulz (Jul 15, 2009)

Nice! 20lm at 50mA while Cree P4 1.1lm at 30mA


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## EntropyQ3 (Jul 15, 2009)

Yup, the specs are really intriguing.


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## BentHeadTX (Jul 15, 2009)

New EO1 in the mix?
That would be sweet


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## Curt R (Jul 15, 2009)

The Lumen output is just slightly higher than a 0100 Rebel; 32 vs 35 @ 100 mA, 54 vs 60 @ 175 mA at max drive current for this type of package, while the Rebel can go to 700 mA or higher. The super-flux package will never see 1 watt power level, no thermal management.
And when the next higher power level of the Rebel 0110 is available the Lumen per watt will be the same.

The Seoul Z1 estimated specs:
50 mA @ 2.8 volts = 15.7 Lumens @ .14 watts.
100 mA @ 3.15 volts = 31.5 Lumens @ .315 watts.
175 mA @ 3.4 volts = 52 Lumens @ .60 watts.

The Rebel 0100 estimated specs:
50 mA @ 2.8 volts = 16 Lumens @ .14 watts.
100 mA @ 2.85 volts = 32 Lumens @ .285 watts.
175 mA @ 2.98 volts = 54 Lumens @ .52 watts.

The Nichia pwr70 estimated specs:
50 mA @ 3.15 volts = 20 Lumens @ .157 watts.
100 mA @ 3.4 volts = 36 Lumens @ .34 watts.
175 mA @ 3.8 volts = 60 Lumens @ .665 watts.

I don't see anything here to get excited about, sorry.

Curt


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## lolzertank (Jul 15, 2009)

R2 XP-E?


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## jtr1962 (Jul 15, 2009)

The Rebel 100 was getting about 145 lm/W at 20 mA in my tests. Yes, I'd say a Rebel 110 will about match the specs of this LED. But the superflux might be more cost effective if you only need a few tens of lumens.


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## Curt R (Jul 15, 2009)

I did not do any real testing, just looked at the data sheet graphs and estimated the results. The major thing with higher power flashlights is thermal management, we can see the results with the Nichia as the power level goes up the thermal rise hurts the light output. The Seoul Z1 problem is that it uses eight finger dies connected with very thin gold bonding wires to keep manufacturing cost down. This limits current handling and resistance builds as can be seen by the voltage rise as compared to the Rebel with thicker bonding wires. The major problem with the super-flux design is the lack of optics other than thermal management. The super-flux is a very low cost item for some applications, but not for quality flashlights. The Seoul Z1 is also low in cost at $1.00 each, the problem is the eight finger design is very hard to optically work with. 

Curt


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## Gryloc (Jul 15, 2009)

Do not forget that the Rebel does not actually use bond wires, as it is directly bonded to the alumina substrate (I think Newbie found it was soldered). This helps with the low forward voltage. The Rebel uses vias in the die to deliver current from the substrate to the die, and they also double as current spreaders...

BTW, the Rebel ES (guaranteed 100lm/W) supposedly has a lower average forward voltage than the typical Rebel 0100 emitters. I think I heard they were comparable to Cree's R2 bin. I wonder how they would compare to these Nichia emitters.

How much are these emitters? Where can you get the Seoul Z1 for $1 each?

Still, this is an interesting product. If prices were low enough, and these high flux LEDs do not have a terribly cold light output that I associate with those style of LEDs, then that would be great. It would be good news for those making low power flashlights, or giant arrays for fixed lighting (signage, but I do not know about residential). Will these emitters generally have a high color temperature and, therefore, a low CRI? Thanks for sharing!

-Tony


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## Jumi (Jul 16, 2009)

Keychain light with this led would not be so small and cheap like EO1 since the leds base is square and 8 millimetres wide so the head would need to be milled not drilled.

I would think that these are meant for automobile industry, Arrays for Daytime running lights, interior lights and reverse lights.

At 50mA it produces 20.63 lumens, color temp is 6365Kelvin and CRI 60.3

For EO1 I would like to have this: http://www.led-tech.de/en/Light-Emitting-Diodes/5mm-LEDs/Superbright-LED-LT-288_1_4.html
Warm white Nichia 510DS, now where do I get those cheaper.

Juha


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## EntropyQ3 (Jul 16, 2009)

Curt R said:


> The Lumen output is just slightly higher than a 0100 Rebel; 32 vs 35 @ 100 mA, 54 vs 60 @ 175 mA at max drive current for this type of package, while the Rebel can go to 700 mA or higher. The super-flux package will never see 1 watt power level, no thermal management.
> And when the next higher power level of the Rebel 0110 is available the Lumen per watt will be the same.
> 
> The Seoul Z1 estimated specs:
> ...



*Price*. At the referenced site, a fifth of what is asked for your competitors above.
Best in class efficiency while still at a fraction of the cost relative to the power-LEDs is rather compelling. If you want a small light with a moderate maximum output, (and there is a large market for that, lots of products and buyers), this is definitely a new contender for the emitter job. Once it is in deployment in products, we can start to assess it seriously. But would I buy for instance a $20 E02 two stage design (3/20 lumen) based on this emitter? Hell YES. 
Although I would guess that we'll mostly see single level lights set at fairly high drive currents (50mA or above ) with this emitter, it would be a bit of a pity. Today the market seems divided along the 5mm LEDs ($1-$15 typically) and the power LEDs (above $25 typically). For me, even though exciting in itself, the excellent efficiency is only half the story, the main thing with this emitter is that it allows less expensive designs to perform even closer to the more expensive power LED based lights. It is actually way more interesting than if it had been a power LED with traditional power LED pricing showing this efficiency, which is the frame of reference you seem to be using.


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## Curt R (Jul 16, 2009)

The Peak Eiger flashlight using the Rebel 0100 that is made in Phoenix is made in eight different power levels, from 30 candlepower to 200 candlepower using a single Alkaline AAA battery. 75 % of the power request have been #6 and higher. Only one #1, (30 cp) and one #2. Power level #3 equals the output of the latest Nichia 5 mm GS at 59 fc and 11 Lumens as made by brand A. 

Low cost throwaway lights from China would probably use a copy of the Nichia prw 70 and claim otherwise. We have been offered 1 to 3 watt LED lights imported and packaged for sale at our cost of $48.00 per dozen using a claimed Luxeon III LED. That cost of $4.00 each includes a completed light ready for use including the AA Alkaline battery delivered in a blister package. One importer that I know complaines that he has to test every light and sends back up to 20% of the new lights because they do not work. He constantly flys to Hong Kong to complain, they nod and say yes-yes-yes, and nothing changes. You get what you pay for. If the low cost light fails and you drive down to the wallyworld to get another, what is the total cost of the light.

The Nichia prw 70 might find its way into a head lamp light or some other application instead of a hand held flashlight. Time will tell as I am somewhat biased as to quality and reliability instead of low cost. A more expensive light may cost less than a cheeper one if it lasts years instead of months. It is not only the cost of the LED but also the quality of the electronics and other parts that make up the light.

Curt


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## bshanahan14rulz (Jul 16, 2009)

This LED package will have more success in the automotive industry than in the flashlight/illumination sector. Just think, now I can fit the same number of LEDs into my domelight as I have right now, but have almost 20x more light!?! Lucky for me I incorporated a dimmer (just PWM, but whatever, I made it). 

Not to mention making aftermarket tails, pnp bulbs for interior lamps (though I admit, most companies that make aftermarket pnp bulbs use the cheapest they can find), even OEM might start using these. for a while most backup lights were using high-powers


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## EntropyQ3 (Jul 16, 2009)

There is a number of areas this LED can be used if we broaden our perspective beyond flashlights. At low cost, record-breaking efficiency, and at least 2.5 times the current capability of 5mm LEDs, I can see this part being *very* interesting for a host of applications.

I'll say it again, if this had been a new higher efficiency bin of our current power LEDs, it would have been good. But in a product a fraction of the price, even with compromised power capability, makes it a whole lot more interesting. Of course, if you need power LED current capability, this is not a suitable product. Efficiency/price/current capability is the story.

With all due respect Curt, the Eiger is nice and all (hell, I've seriously considered it myself), but using it as a source of statistics? The one figure that might be useful is the ratio of E01 vs LD01 sales during the last couple of months after the initial sales rushes. But that still only takes what's essentially enthusiast lights into accounts. This LED is inexpensive enough that it might find its way into lights sold at supermarkets, gas stations et cetera.
And I find your attempt to associate the LED with low quality lights a bit odd. The much lower end Nichia 5mm LEDs are used in a number of very nice lights, as I'm sure you are aware.


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## Curt R (Jul 16, 2009)

For the higher priced lights most seem to want power no matter what the size of the light. The Peak Matterhorn standard power did not sell, less than 3% of the total sales over five years. The high power about 30% and the rest ultra power. The Nichia prw70 will find a very wide application in many areas. However the China flashlight manufacturers if using the prw70 in a flashlight will tell you that it is a Nichia but will use a counterfeit look-alike. They have been doing that for years. Sometimes they are good LEDs and sometimes not so good. They look at bottom line cost and not what the end product is, because they know that the buyer at wallyworld will look at a $5.00 light and a $6.00 light and buy the lower priced one. We have made over 8000 lights and our returns for service have averaged less then two per month. There are good reasons for buying low cost lights, generaly for non-professional applications. If you need to rely on a light, buy any good quality brand.

I have seen so much junk out there sluffed off on the the public that it upsets me and it comes out in my postings. To me its a waste of good hard earned money.

Curt


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## EntropyQ3 (Jul 16, 2009)

Curt R said:


> For the higher priced lights most seem to want power no matter what the size of the light. The Peak Matterhorn standard power did not sell, less than 3% of the total sales over five years. The high power about 30% and the rest ultra power.


For "expensive" lights, the preference for brightness is probably true. The AAA Arc is an anomaly.
Also, generally speaking, I'd say that enthusiasts prefer high brightness, something to make them, or at least their polite friends, impressed. I'd guess that pretty much all enthusiasts have more flashlights than they need, so sales to them is based on "new, shiny" more than any other particular merit so items like a slightly higher flux bin, a tritium capsule, an unusual material, uniqueness or high brightness are all factors that make sales. 

For lights that see more practical use however, reliability is imperative.
One aspect of reliability is that the battery is able to drive the light at the time when you actually need it and for as long as you need it, so for practical use efficiency/battery life is important. For flashlight enthusiasts, not so much, outside the satisfaction of owning a light that is well engineered. 



> The Nichia prw70 will find a very wide application in many areas. However the China flashlight manufacturers if using the prw70 in a flashlight will tell you that it is a Nichia but will use a counterfeit look-alike. They have been doing that for years. Sometimes they are good LEDs and sometimes not so good. They look at bottom line cost and not what the end product is, because they know that the buyer at wallyworld will look at a $5.00 light and a $6.00 light and buy the lower priced one. We have made over 8000 lights and our returns for service have averaged less then two per month. There are good reasons for buying low cost lights, generaly for non-professional applications. If you need to rely on a light, buy any good quality brand.
> 
> I have seen so much junk out there sluffed off on the the public that it upsets me and it comes out in my postings. To me its a waste of good hard earned money.


I can completely sympathise.
Counterfeiting could be made more difficult though. Would it kill Cree for instance to actually mark their LEDs with the bin they belong to? I have a strong feeling not all R2s are quite what they are made out to be. 

(However, actually I've lost more money buying supposedly reputable brands than cheapos - when a cheap light disappoints, at least you didn't put too much money on the table in absolute terms. And as in all things the more handcrafted pieces cost exponentially more since you not only pay for the quality assurance but also for small series and inefficient production. It's the nature of the beast.)

None of this however is any worse for the Nichia than for any other emitter. Given its low price, even the borderline honest can't profit much by going with alternatives, so they would have to be both in desperate need of small money and completely uncaring of their reputation to bother with shortchanging the customer in this case. I would be far more worried if I got what I paid for buying the current top Cree bin....


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## Curt R (Jul 16, 2009)

Yep

Curt


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