# Newbie: Best home defense flashlight?



## coclimer (Jun 14, 2010)

I'd like direction for a handheld light, used with a handgun, in the home, at night. I figure "something bright, floody, easy to hold, and it needs a very fast and simple switch", LED, approx 5-7 inch, 65 lumens min, AA or CR123, cap-switch (although both cap and slider in the same light would be nice), $50-$100, flashlight would get me in the ballpark. 

Would like to avoid side-bar discussions and only discuss hardware, kind of like:
- Fenix TK-11
- Eagletac P20C2
- Olight M20 S
- SureFire G2L and 6PL
- 6P host with a M60F or Malkoff MD2 with a M61

Suggestions would be appreciated.


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## rebelproud (Jun 14, 2010)

I'm going to give you the best advice that I can possibly give. 

Set your alarm for 2 a.m. to stimulate you being suddenly awoken by the sound of an intruder making their way toward your bedroom. Now, take that 100 + lumen flashlight of yours and shine it at the doorway of your bedroom. Be prepared for pain, loss of your own night vision, and temporary blindness. You're not going to be able to see a thing. And, if you were in a real life situation, you will have just tipped the odds largely in favor of your attacker.

That is not to say that there are not situations when you could use a weapon light. There are indeed plenty. But, you must practice as you train, and you must know when to use it and when not to use it. I would recommend a good filter to keep on it at most times for being startled in the middle of the night, and to pop the filter off if you are already awake, alert, and you are deciding to investigate or clear the house.

My bed stand light is a surefire kroma set to low red. Anything brighter or whiter destroys my night vision and temporarily blinds me. I would not use a weaponlight coming out of a dead sleep unless it had an equivalent filter on it. And, I would take into consideration the tactical disadvantage of advertising my position if I were not using the light properly, according to the tactical demands of the situation.


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## Kestrel (Jun 14, 2010)

Hi there, and :welcome:
To start with, you might find this thread very interesting.

Just an FYI, "home defense" is a tricky topic around here, you might want to have multiple lines of research:

Flashlight with characteristics X, Y, & Z
Techniques on using a flashlight with a handgun (I've seen some good threads on CPF, the one I linked to above is the first one I came across which appeared to be satisfactory.)
Have you thought of looking into a low-light handgun training course such as this one?
(In case you're curious, here's a link to a related review that GreenLED did a while back.)


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## Sgt. LED (Jun 14, 2010)

These threads never go well but I wish you the best of luck.
I'd want something bright, floody, easy to hold, and it needs a very fast and simple switch.


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## Egsise (Jun 14, 2010)

coclimer said:


> I've searched here on CPF for home defense flashlights, but get discussions on lights mounted on handguns.
> 
> I'd like direction for a handheld light, used with a handgun, in the home, at night. .


Prepaid cellphone.

Or any other light source will do to mark you as target.


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## shipwreck (Jun 14, 2010)

I'd recommend the Eagletac P20C2 Mk II. I think I paid $68 shipped for it. I liked it so much that I also ordered the tactical version for $84.

However, I find the flood capability on the P model to be a little better. And although the "T" throws a little further, it's not by much. I was SUPER impressed with the 300 lumen out the front output of the P20C2 Mk II (400 lumens actual). 

For the money - $68, it's a fantastic deal on the P20C2 Mk II. You can also change the setting to 60 lumens, and get 13 hours of of it instead of the 1.7 hours at the 300 OTF lumens.

I haven't seen a higher lumen output from a name brand flashlight for that amount of money anywhere else.


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## coclimer (Jun 14, 2010)

...Have you thought of looking into a low-light handgun training course such as [URL="http://www.oregonfirearmsacademy.com/courses/nightfire.htm" said:


> this one[/URL]?



Thank you Kestrel for the site to that school. I never knew so much could be discussed about flashlights! I've lurked for awhile and am gaining an appreciation for the subject. The search ideas you suggest is appreciated; I'll try them.

Thanks Sgt. LED. "I'd want something bright, floody, easy to hold, and it needs a very fast and simple switch." I'll screen on those attributes.

And thanks shipwreck. I'll study the Eagletac P20C2. P for flooding sounds good (per Sgt. LED) and being inside a house, I won't need much throw.


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## daf3m (Jun 14, 2010)

coclimer said:


> I've searched here on CPF for home defense flashlights, but get discussions on lights mounted on handguns.
> 
> I'd like direction for a handheld light, used with a handgun, in the home, at night.
> 
> ...



Guns and MUI are not good idea..so have a look on TK11 - 2 modes low-high, cr123 with good throw and spill(R5) .


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## coclimer (Jun 14, 2010)

daf3m said:


> Guns and MUI are not good idea..so have a look on TK11 - 2 modes low-high, cr123 with good throw and spill(R5) .


Thanks, daf3m (is that your password?). Sgt. LED said to keep it simple, too. I searched "MUI" and got "Mechanical User Interface" and a little about "Piston Drive". I gather that all means, keep it simple. 

The TK11 is more simple than the TK12, TK20, LD20, and TA20? It appears to have fewer modes. What I cannot tell is if the TK11 is also easier to operate. Is that why you recommend it?


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## shipwreck (Jun 14, 2010)

I almost went with the TK11 over the Eagletac P20C2 MK 2. The eagletac does have a low 5 lumen mode, SOS, beacon and strobe - but I like that they are hidden a bit. You don't even have to get into them if you don't want to. 

I think the T20C2 and the TK11 probably are very similiar in throw. 

I've still thought about getting the TK11 just because I go overboard when I get into something - but for now, its too similar to what I already have. The next light I get will be a very, very bright one.


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## daf3m (Jun 14, 2010)

Multi User Interface i suppose fits ok. 
TK11 uses a straight forward clickie with momentary function .240 lumens on high (R2 emitter) with good throw or 285 lumens (R5 emitter) with good spill .I suppose indoors good spill is usefull.
You turn the head around 10 degrees and you get low which is ~65 lumens. 
Also it's size is perfect for my hand .I suppose the same would be for yours.

TK20 is a warm tint flashlight but it is bulkier (2AA) and it is not so well balanced.No way to use it with a gun effectively. Same goes for TA20.

TK12 is a TK11 multi-moded(ok with some exterior differences) .But what happens if you needed on high and it is on low .Then you must follow the protocol and change mode .You lose seconds at a critical moment.

Further more i like simple things.The less chips included the better.


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## carrot (Jun 14, 2010)

I'll just copy my reply here from your other thread:


Look at the Quark 123-2 Tactical or AA-2 Tactical. You can set two output levels so that there is no fiddling later. One lower level for indoors and a higher output level for outdoors. It has a momentary switch as required of a room clearing light and also can click on for constant output if you so require.


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## cm_mtb (Jun 14, 2010)

Simplicity is required for a HD flashlight. I would suggest only one mode, and a momentary-only tailcap switch. It is very easy to accidentally "click" a light on in a stressful situation when you only wanted a momentary burst of light.

Check out the SureFire G2L and 6PL. The 6P meets your criteria for an aluminum body, but the Nitrolon (polymer) body of the G2 is still extremely durable. The LED in these lights is rated at 80 lumens. SureFire recently released a LED bezel upgrade for the above lights that puts out 120 lumens. Keep in mind that these are out the front ratings, not the inflated ratings of many other manufactures. 

Another option is to watch the marketplace for a G2L host (just body and bezel, with no LED), and buy a Malkoff M60 or M60L on the marketplace as well. This is a very durable and popular LED dropin.

Take into account that anything over 100 or so lumens will appear _very_ bright after waking up in the middle of the night, and you can potentially blind yourself, not just the BG, for at least a few seconds from the back scatter of the light reflecting off walls, windows, etc.

As others suggested, look into some low-light training with a flashlight.


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## robe619 (Jun 14, 2010)

I use a Fenix TK11 for duty use. I'm very satisfied with it.


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## shipwreck (Jun 14, 2010)

I was using my Inova T2-MP - which was super simple with just 1 level all the times... 140 lumens. I was satisfied with its brightness until I got the Eagletacs.

However, with just the 1 level, i found it was TOO bright for indoor use when you first wake up and grab the light to see something. AFter a couple times of that, I decided to get something with at least two brightness levels. The P20C2/T20C2 MK 2 also goes from 300 to 60 by just turning the head. I leave the one in my nightstand set at 60 lumens by default. 

And the one I EDC is set to 300 lumens by default.


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## coclimer (Jun 14, 2010)

Rebelproud... I missed your post above; posts have been coming fast, and I'm trying to read up on each suggestion at the same time. Appreaciate yours and others comments about the need for low light. This was not obvious to me; seemed like more was better. BTW: I hope this thread stays on track about flashlights only... and avoids the "how to clear a room" and "the castle-doctrine", etc. info.

Kestrel... I read the "Flashlight to complement a handgun" thread you recommended. Good info. Also looked at the website for classes. 

Dropping TK12, TA20 

Reading up on Eagletac P20C2 MK 2 now.

Reading next: Quark 123-2 Tactical or AA-2 Tactical, SureFire G2L and 6PL, then TK11.


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## alpg88 (Jun 14, 2010)

6d mag, and don't put it on


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## petersmith6 (Jun 14, 2010)

i second to 6d maglite..and its eco friendly..you can hit them again ..and again..and again..as for loosing your night vision...well as Your the one with the on/off switch ..just shut you eyes when you give them a quick blast.700 lumins should bugger ther night wision up abit..


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## yalskey (Jun 14, 2010)

*[off-topic content of post removed - relevant part remains. - DM51]*

'nuff said.


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## Noctis (Jun 14, 2010)

I would recommend a Stanley HID. Forget destroying your own night vision, your target will be blind for life. Wouldn't hurt to keep some sunglasses next to it either:devil:.

But realistically, I hope none of you guys have family members or cats in the same house as you. If you have a big dog, I doubt the possibility of an intruder should concern you.

Still, it's interesting how nobody mentioned the Malkoff M61. The hotspot is more than enough to blind someone at close to mid range, and the spill is perfect for lighting up a room.


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## Linger (Jun 14, 2010)

Welcome coclimer 
I'm going to say thank-you for taking the time to compose your post.
If your 3rd sentence,"I'd like direction for a handheld light, used with a handgun, in the home, at night" was moved to the first line of your post, then the hover-text (when a person mouses over, deciding if they should click into your post or not) would be very informative.
But again, thanx.

I'll come at this cross-ways to Rebel and Sgt's: get something that could do low output from off. If you awaken and hear someone moving, presently at a distance but coming closer you could 1/2 shield the light and flick it to low - bleaching your rods a bit and lessening that dark adaptation. You'll see more when you go to full power moments later vs. pitch dark -> blind yourself.


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## Kestrel (Jun 14, 2010)

*Hey folks, check out the OP's request:*


coclimer said:


> I'd like direction for a handheld light, used with a handgun, in the home, at night.
> 
> I figure an aluminum, LED, approx 5-7 inch, 65-200+ lumens, AA or CR123 [etc]


*Where in post # 1 does he ask about "self-defense techniques"?*
(let alone some of the other suggestions and contributions above)

My post #3:


Kestrel said:


> Just an FYI, "home defense" is a tricky topic around here


I mentioned this relatively early in the thread as a recommendation to watch out for this topic, I suggested a more relevant thread for that route of inquiry, also suggesting a route to inquire regarding low-light training, but outside of this thread. I guess my well-meaning suggestion should have been more explicit in that regard.

As usual, Sgt. LED communicated this potential issue possibly more effectively, but with far more brevity & efficiency than I did:


Sgt. LED said:


> These threads never go well but I wish you the best of luck.
> I'd want something bright, floody, easy to hold, and it needs a very fast and simple switch.


 
This thread may possibly expire now that some of the usual lines of thought have been expressed. Good luck and good night,
K


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## Noctis (Jun 14, 2010)

Actually having read the OP's posts again, I find no mention of any "blinding" or any other things like that.

So I would recommend a floody light with a warm tint.

Any P60 host with perhaps a Nailbender Warm Tint XP-G modified to use a 60 degree optic sounds pretty nice.

The idea would be to try and get a beam profile like the Malkoff MC-E Warm, mostly because it's hard to get ahold of. A spill that's extremely wide and evenly lit.

The warm tint will give you better color rendition and will let you know whether you're pointing your weapon at an intruder or the family cat:huh:.


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## sjmack (Jun 14, 2010)

cm_mtb said:


> Simplicity is required for a HD flashlight. I would suggest only one mode, and a momentary-only tailcap switch. It is very easy to accidentally "click" a light on in a stressful situation when you only wanted a momentary burst of light.
> 
> Check out the SureFire G2L and 6PL. The 6P meets your criteria for an aluminum body, but the Nitrolon (polymer) body of the G2 is still extremely durable. The LED in these lights is rated at 80 lumens. SureFire recently released a LED bezel upgrade for the above lights that puts out 120 lumens. Keep in mind that these are out the front ratings, not the inflated ratings of many other manufactures.
> 
> ...




I agree with this post wholeheartedly. 6P host with a M60F would be my choice.


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## daf3m (Jun 14, 2010)

Mates,our friend limited the cost at $50-$100 .Don't forget that..


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## Zatoichi (Jun 14, 2010)

As we aren't allowed handguns in the UK I'm not speaking from experience, but I can't help wondering if a twisty/momentary on like the 6P would be my first choice. It does indeed prevent you from accidentally switching the light constantly on, but should you wish to do that, you can't without having to fiddle around twisting the tailcap, which might be awkward while also holding a gun? 

I think I'd prefer a forward clicky with momentary on, as long as the switch is a good one (not a sloppy, mushy feeling one). Just a point to think about. As I said I don't speak from experience.


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## coclimer (Jun 14, 2010)

Thank you "sjmack". I have to look at the 6P with a M60F; you're the second to mention it.

I am very thankful for all of you who have helped me with what flashlight to buy. 

This forum and all the technology with flashlights is an eye-opener... I never knew of the depth of this subject! Thank you all.


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## coclimer (Jun 14, 2010)

Zatoichi,
I also have not had experience, but had the same thought as you about switches. I hoped a flashlight might have two switches. I will look at the 6P with your comment in mind.


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## ToNIX (Jun 14, 2010)

robe619 said:


> I use a Fenix TK11 for duty use. I'm very satisfied with it.



Same for me, until I got my hands on my Malkoff MD2/M61  The TK11 is now in the bag.


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## Templar223 (Jun 14, 2010)

My advice:

Get some training on using a gun for home defense and at the conclusion of said training you'll know exactly what YOU need.

For most (trained) people, 60 lumens is plenty and then some for indoor tactical/home defense use. Momentary on is good.

Outdoors is a different animal, but not germane to your topic.

John


ETA:



yalskey said:


> As a violence survival / self-defense instructor
> 
> 'nuff said.




Good to see other instructors here. Lots of good info I snipped from Yalskey's post.


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## kengps (Jun 14, 2010)

Wow,....just wow......Not a single mention of the flashlight built for self-defense, works well while holding a hand-gun, holding cell phone, the dog, etc. The Surefire Z2. Second....Floody my butt. I want a thrower with some weak side-spill. You want to illuminate your target of interest, and not illuminate yourself. You want them blinded, and left with Zero night vision, not you. The Malkoff M60 has been the standard for that for a number of years now. Buy a cheap Surefire Z2 incandescent, replace the bulb with a M60 or the newer M61 drop-in. Perfection.

Find a thread on CPF or a flashlight thread on a forum where lots of Law Enforcement hangs out. There is only one name you will see a rabid dedication to. Gene Malkoff. Here's one. Over 1200 post so far.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/261283


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## JCD (Jun 14, 2010)

cm_mtb said:


> Check out the SureFire G2L and 6PL. The 6P meets your criteria for an aluminum body, but the Nitrolon (polymer) body of the G2 is still extremely durable. The LED in these lights is rated at 80 lumens. SureFire recently released a LED bezel upgrade for the above lights that puts out 120 lumens. Keep in mind that these are out the front ratings, not the inflated ratings of many other manufactures.



Actually, the newest versions of the lights you mentioned come with the 120 lumen head installed, according to the SureFire Web site.

I agree with your recommendations and your reasoning.


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## Mike 208 (Jun 14, 2010)

I would suggest that you check out the Surefire "Z" series lights, which are specifically designed to be used with a handgun. A G2ZL can be purchased new for $115.00 (a little over the $100.00 cap, but not by too much). I would also suggest getting the FM34 diffuser ($32.00). The G2ZL (as well as the incandescent G2Z - $69.00) is available in "Desert Tan" color (the lighter tan color makes the light easier to find in a dark room during an emergency). If you get the older version of the G2ZL (or the incandescent G2Z), you can change the stock LA with a Malkoff (et al) LED, if desired.

I will also strongly suggest that you get the proper firearm and low-light training, as well as to keep a wireless telephone nearby to call in the troops.

Hope this helps.


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## coclimer (Jun 14, 2010)

Thanks "kengps", "JCD", and "Mike 208",

I was just reading about P6L on the Surefire website, and about Madcoff M61 drop-ins at his website. Had no idea about modular parts. Interesting. I may get in more trouble in this forum than I imagined.

I've shot everything for a very long time, however, Mike 208, you are the third to suggest low-light training. I will look into that. (Have the wireless in the safe-room already; that's where we will stay once our daughter is safely shepherded in.) 

I'll look at the Surefire Z lights now. Tan color makes sense for night.

Thanks.


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## Search (Jun 14, 2010)

My duty light is a 6P with an XPG drop-in. It's bright, it's simple, and it works. Nothing else matters when your experiencing a lot of unwelcome stress, period.

Try not to over complicate your flashlight selection, because I'll tell you from experience that if said even took place, your flashlight would become far less important.


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## Noctis (Jun 14, 2010)

kengps said:


> Wow,....just wow......Not a single mention of the flashlight built for self-defense, works well while holding a hand-gun, holding cell phone, the dog, etc. The Surefire Z2. Second....Floody my butt. I want a thrower with some weak side-spill. You want to illuminate your target of interest, and not illuminate yourself. You want them blinded, and left with Zero night vision, not you. The Malkoff M60 has been the standard for that for a number of years now. Buy a cheap Surefire Z2 incandescent, replace the bulb with a M60 or the newer M61 drop-in. Perfection.
> 
> Find a thread on CPF or a flashlight thread on a forum where lots of Law Enforcement hangs out. There is only one name you will see a rabid dedication to. Gene Malkoff. Here's one. Over 1200 post so far.
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/261283


If the intent is to blind someone, I personally find that the hotspot of the M60/M61 to be a tad small for that. For one thing, when it's pitch black, you don't know where the head is at. This is why I feel that deliberately attempting to blind an attacker with a laser is somewhat stupid given how difficult it would be to try and nail someone in the eyes with that tiny tiny dot while they're moving straight at you.

I somewhat doubt that a floody light would be more blinding to the user than a light with a focused spot and weak spill. For example, if you point your light at the wall and move closer to it until the head is almost touching it, you'll notice that it's harder to stare at the hotspot and pretty soon it'll leave a flashing spot in your vision.


I also don't want to sound like the blind man leading the blind, but wouldn't you still be at an advantage given that the other guy is staring directly at the emitter of your light while you're merely looking at the light bouncing off of him and expecting it as well? I simply don't understand why the bouncing light would prevent you from deducing the guy's precise location, point the gun at his chest and pull the trigger.


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## Search (Jun 14, 2010)

Noctis said:


> I also don't want to sound like the blind man leading the blind, but wouldn't you still be at an advantage given that the other guy is staring directly at the emitter of your light while you're merely looking at the light bouncing off of him and expecting it as well? I simply don't understand why the bouncing light would prevent you from deducing the guy's precise location, point the gun at his chest and pull the trigger.



The point is when your clearing something you never keep your light on constantly. If your light is too bright, when you flash it on and off, you will degrade your night vision and you wont be able to see in the dark. 

To be honest though, it's never been a concern that's been brought up through any of my training. Only on the internet have I heard it. Now some departments or agencies might look at things differently, but when you are clearing a structure it's fast paced. You flash your light so you know where to go. We don't rely on night vision.

People need to be more worried about seeing in the dark than trying to be tactically sound. It happens too fast to be focused on such little things.

Edit: Oh yea, if someone breaks into your house, a flashlight has one and only one purpose: to help you line the front sights with the rear. Flashlight have never been, are not, nor will be a self defense tool in itself. If I broke into your house and I wanted you, I promise you no amount of light is going to stop me.

Now, this discussion needs to shift away from personal defense and back to a good light to keep in case the SHTF. We all know the rules here.


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## coclimer (Jun 14, 2010)

Noctis... your comment: "Try not to over complicate your flashlight selection, because I'll tell you from experience that if said even took place, your flashlight would become far less important"... is well taken.


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## lightfooted (Jun 15, 2010)

Now that things have settled down a bit...I think there was definitely some good advice proffered there and just wanted to add to it somewhat.

Olight has a new model M20S that is about the same size as the TK11. It has a tactical momentary tail switch and a secondary switch on the side of the tail cap to change the brightness. The secondary switch also activates the strobe feature momentarily when the light is otherwise off. This model may in fact be my next purchase after my M21.

Something else...the new batch of Surefires that is advertised on Battery Junction also have newer, brighter LEDs so would definitely be on par with the rest of the field of tactical lights.


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## Search (Jun 15, 2010)

coclimer said:


> Noctis... your question to "yalskey":
> ...is a good one. I'm sure "yalskey" never read my original question, and just dumped his cut-n-paste boilerplate in this thread (and many others) as a form of free advertising.
> 
> Your other comment: "Try not to over complicate your flashlight selection, because I'll tell you from experience that if said even took place, your flashlight would become far less important"... is well taken.
> ...



When I had a TK-11, it was one of the best lights I ever had. The throwy hotspot hit the far off areas well and the massive amount of spill it had was good for the tight areas. The fact that the low mode doesn't get in the way of simple on/off is a very big plus. You can't concentrate on the job at hand if every time you turn it off and on it does something different.

However, I'm Search


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## Search (Jun 15, 2010)

lightfooted said:


> Now that things have settled down a bit...I think there was definitely some good advice proffered there and just wanted to add to it somewhat.
> 
> Olight has a new model M20S that is about the same size as the TK11. It has a tactical momentary tail switch and a secondary switch on the side of the tail cap to change the brightness. The secondary switch also activates the strobe feature momentarily when the light is otherwise off. This model may in fact be my next purchase after my M21.
> 
> Something else...the new batch of Surefires that is advertised on Battery Junction also have newer, brighter LEDs so would definitely be on par with the rest of the field of tactical lights.



You will find the M20S holds more value as looking the part vs. being the part. Yes, having a switch on the side is a nice idea. However, being in line with the original post, you will either hit it accidentally or never use it at all.

When buying lights to be prepared for the worst, you should be focused on one thing: Making sure that it comes on the way you wanted it to, every time.


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## coclimer (Jun 15, 2010)

Hi Search,
I meant to say something earlier... I appreciate your comments. They have a bit of wisdom in them. I can use that now that I'm considering home defense, and flashlights.
Thanks,

Looking at Olight model M20S next!


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## Solscud007 (Jun 15, 2010)

im too lazy to read all the replys here. But I would recommend that if you are going to use a light during a time of crisis, you want the best. dont go cheap. 

however you dont need the most expensive thing. I would recommend a Surefire. 

The A2 aviator or the new A2L would be a good candidate. you could get them with red leds. that way you can navigate while retaining night vision. They are designed to turn on the color leds first and then if you keep pushing the tailcap further, you get full white light. 

the Kroma also does the same but more variety.

You dont want anything that takes two hands to operate. 

You might want to look into the Firstlight Tomahawk. real good to grip with handgun. they have a kroma like version with a ring of color LEDs surrounding the main white LED.

Also you might want to try shooting one handed with the handheld light in a more natural position. 

As my carbine instructor said, if you didnt train to do it, you wont do it when you need to. there is no magic way that you will know what to do when the time comes. people revert to how they practiced and trained. 

If you dont practice shooting with a handheld light, you arent going to do it when your adrenaline is pumping and you are fearing for your life. emergencies statistically end after a few seconds. rarely do they drag on. prolonged shoot outs are something of Hollywood and fiction.

even worse you will have VERY little warning You want a light that is with the handgun for said emergency. best to have a light mounted on the pistol that way you dont need to think or look for a light, it is right there.

anyway think of it this way. you will wake up late at night, your vision will be adapted to the darkness. the perp may or may not have night adapted vision. So a bright light will affect him or her also. target identification is crucial.


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## Noctis (Jun 15, 2010)

Search said:


> The point is when your clearing something you never keep your light on constantly. If your light is too bright, when you flash it on and off, you will degrade your night vision and you wont be able to see in the dark.
> 
> To be honest though, it's never been a concern that's been brought up through any of my training. Only on the internet have I heard it. Now some departments or agencies might look at things differently, but when you are clearing a structure it's fast paced. You flash your light so you know where to go. We don't rely on night vision.
> 
> People need to be more worried about seeing in the dark than trying to be tactically sound. It happens too fast to be focused on such little things.


I expect the reason why nobody brought it up in your training is because nobody expected you to have something other than the standard issue lights that are low enough in output for that to not be an issue.



> Edit: Oh yea, if someone breaks into your house, a flashlight has one and only one purpose: to help you line the front sights with the rear. Flashlight have never been, are not, nor will be a self defense tool in itself. If I broke into your house and I wanted you, I promise you no amount of light is going to stop me.
> 
> Now, this discussion needs to shift away from personal defense and back to a good light to keep in case the SHTF. We all know the rules here.


True, but I'd say it's a fairly good aid for the more timid of us who avoid firearms like the plague. Not that the crime rates around here are bad enough to justify a firearm in every household.

I still believe a good flashlight bestows a simple gift:
To provide you with information while denying the same to someone else.

You can see who they are so you don't end up shooting your friend who was sleeping over and had you mistaken the sound of a dropped dish to the sound of a broken window.

You can also see whether it's an armed drug addict or your neighbor's punk kid before you go trigger happy.

Because crimes involving firearms are so rare here, if a burglar ever broke into my house, saw me with the light and tried to tackle me, he'd be impaling himself on that knife he didn't see me holding because the light was the only thing he saw.


Still, as far as any defense goes, lights should just be picked to find and identify someone so that you know that your gun is pointed squarely at their chest, and that the chest doesn't belong to anyone you know.


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## cm_mtb (Jun 15, 2010)

Zatoichi said:


> As we aren't allowed handguns in the UK I'm not speaking from experience, but I can't help wondering if a twisty/momentary on like the 6P would be my first choice. It does indeed prevent you from accidentally switching the light constantly on, but should you wish to do that, you can't without having to fiddle around twisting the tailcap, which might be awkward while also holding a gun?
> 
> I think I'd prefer a forward clicky with momentary on, as long as the switch is a good one (not a sloppy, mushy feeling one). Just a point to think about. As I said I don't speak from experience.



It takes less than half a turn of the tailcap to go from momentary to constant on. On my E2e, I can easily accomplish this using my thumb and index finger. I'm sure a G2, etc would be the same. Besides, one wouldn't be going to constant on in the middle of an SD situation.


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## Noctis (Jun 15, 2010)

cm_mtb said:


> It takes less than half a turn of the tailcap to go from momentary to constant on. On my E2e, I can easily accomplish this using my thumb and index finger. I'm sure a G2, etc would be the same. Besides, one wouldn't be going to constant on in the middle of an SD situation.


Unless of course you don't want to divide your attention by keeping your finger on the clicky with enough pressure to keep the light on when the SHTF. In which case, I love my forward clicky.


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## stallion2 (Jun 15, 2010)

KISS...keep it simple, stupid (not directed towards anyone)

something relatively wide angle and it doesn't even have to be that bright (unless you have a really big bedroom or living room). just get something that can flood an adversary's field of vision w/out having to be right on the mark and doesn't impair your own vision too much. if your beam is too narrow then you may not have it right on their face when you turn it on...this gives them time to turn away or close their eyes before your light has been given the chance to buy you any real advantage. i find that my G2 w/ P60 incan fits these requirments better than nearly all my other uber bright/expensive/complicated lights.

i would also suggest a relatively big light...something easier to grab onto in the dark. you might even consider glueing tritiums to it so its easier to find in the dark.

however, there is no replacement for a good ol' muzzle flash


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## Egsise (Jun 15, 2010)

*[ :green: - DM51]*


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## DM51 (Jun 15, 2010)

Despite the efforts of one or two members to drag this thread off-topic, it has survived so far by a whisker. Some credit for that must go to the OP, who has maintained his involvement and kept it largely on track.

To echo the advice given above by Kestrel in post #22, I would remind members that the OP asked for advice about which light would be most suitable for his purposes. He did *NOT* ask for advice on self-defense techniques. 

Some off-topic posts have therefore been edited, and others removed. There are to be no further diversions into self-defense in this thread; it is not a proper topic for this forum.


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## funkymonkey1111 (Jun 15, 2010)

To me, it begins and ends with the Malkoff M61/MD2. Easy to operate, incredibly bright, and bulletproof operation. Its $107--$7 over your budget, but $7 is worth it in this instance. 

Buy it, forget the others, and you will not be disappointed.


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## Zatoichi (Jun 15, 2010)

cm_mtb said:


> It takes less than half a turn of the tailcap to go from momentary to constant on. On my E2e, I can easily accomplish this using my thumb and index finger. I'm sure a G2, etc would be the same. Besides, one wouldn't be going to constant on in the middle of an SD situation.



I'm not being picky, and it was just something to consider, but I find half a turn of my 6P's tailcap (I didn't see the E2E mentioned and have never handled one) quite fiddly with one hand. Under stress while holding/aiming a firearm, probably moreso. If _you_ would never use constant on in a home defense situation then it's a moot point I suppose. Personally I can envision circumstances where I might want to have the light on constantly for periods of time without having to hold the button down. I'd at least like the option.

My TK10 would be my flashlight of choice if I needed a light for this kind of use, so I'll humbly go along with the TK11 recommendations.


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## Splunk_Au (Jun 15, 2010)

Sgt. LED said:


> These threads never go well but I wish you the best of luck.


 
Agreed, kinda tell-tale of how CPF has changed.


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## yalskey (Jun 15, 2010)

coclimer said:


> Noctis... your question to "yalskey":
> ...is a good one. I'm sure "yalskey" never read my original question, and just dumped his cut-n-paste boilerplate in this thread (and many others) as a form of free advertising.



I never saw that Noctis asked me a question. Did I miss it somewhere?

Also, I take offense to you statement that I didn't read the OP and I had some "cut-n-paste boilerplate" that I posted for advertisement purposes. I typed every word of my post specifically to help the OP and other readers out. It's an issue that comes up every couple of weeks here on CPF and I feel a certain duty as a violence survival instructor to lend my experience / knowledge on the subject I've studied for so long. I'm not selling ANYTHING... not a product and not a service. I don't even have a website or podcast anymore... not that I sold anything with those anyway.

I'm sorry some people couldn't see the value in my post. I'm also sorry that CPF is in the tough position its in with the whole "flashlights for self-defense" issue. It's a shame that good / responsible information needs to be moderated due to the general maturity level of the people on this forum. (Not my words... paraphrased from a CPF moderator).

Bottom line is that what you said about me and my post was dead wrong and hurtful when I was only trying to help in the best way I know how. I had the OP's best interest at heart... unfortunately people won't be able to see that with my post deleted.


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## sappyg (Jun 15, 2010)

an interesting thread....
i think in a lot of ways the OP could just as well asked the question 'what is a good, basic, general purpose flashlight for house use' and gotten some similar responses. to that end who can deny the G2L and 6PL he mentioned in the OP?
i would like to add the G3 to the mix as well here. slightly longer than the G2/ 6P and less fiddly in my view. anyone can learn to use it in about 5 seconds and definately able to spit out lumins gallore. i particularly like malkov's M60LF for this question in particular. it will not blind you from a hot spot or wall bounce which is more important than blinding someone else IMHO.this may go a little over the budget but we are considering the BEST. more than one stage sounds good on the surface but i think it's more of a compromise when things get tense.


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## Noctis (Jun 15, 2010)

Keeping it simple sounds like a plan.

That said, I like my Surefire 6P bored with a Malkoff M61. A McClicky switch turns the twisty into a simple on/off clicky.

I suspect that the light is going to be the least of the complications.

In a typical family household, I'd be more worried about having the gun in a place where the kids can't get at(locked up sounds like the best option), yet still quickly accessible in case of an emergency.


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## uffstuffson (Jun 15, 2010)

Templar223 said:


> My advice:
> 
> Get some training on using a gun for home defense and at the conclusion of said training you'll know exactly what YOU need.
> 
> ...


 
Alot of people (not just on here) have a very rigid view of what YOU need. I am a reserve police officer and we all train the same for the reason that we have to work together and need to have a good idea what our partner is about to do in most situations while the poop is hitting the fan. However if you are working alone in your dark bedroom jumping up from a dead sleep you need to learn, practice and modify a technique to work for YOU. A rigid set of techniques sacrifices each person's natural reactions for learned ones in an attempt to keep multiple person's actions fluid. A good, thorough self defense handgun course will discuss and practice different techniques and theories that you can modify after you've practiced and perfected them. I would take most of the advice about what YOU need and try them but when it comes down to it the best thing would be to work with what is natural to you and perfect those techniques. I am not that experienced in the flashlight world but I do know different peoples eyes are going to react differently to different lights in different situations so you may be blinded by the reflected 60 lumes of the T20C2 MKII while I can handle it. I'm not sure I would turn the light back off once I've turned it on at any point though. Just the act of reaching for the flashlight may highlight you as a target and once you've flashed it the other person can see you as well as you can see them (unless you hit them in the eyes with the beam) in which case I'd want my (new!) T20C2 MKII on turbo. It might blind me a little right away but he's going to be in much worse shape than I am in a couple seconds. My opinion would be to look into a handgun course that is run by professionals to get the basics down and then you can perfect them with what is natural to you. Make sure you practice the technique you've decided to use though. Remember, if you don't use it you loose it! It's better to know you don't know how to do something than to get into a situation, try a technique and realize you forgot how to do it mid execution! These are just my observations and opinions, do what is right for you!


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## Search (Jun 15, 2010)

yalskey said:


> I'm sorry some people couldn't see the value in my post. I'm also sorry that CPF is in the tough position its in with the whole "flashlights for self-defense" issue. It's a shame that good / responsible information needs to be moderated due to the general maturity level of the people on this forum. (Not my words... paraphrased from a CPF moderator).



Herein lies the problem. Your right, everyone is wrong.



Noctis said:


> I expect the reason why nobody brought it up in your training is because nobody expected you to have something other than the standard issue lights that are low enough in output for that to not be an issue.



Department issued weapon lights are 200 + lumens. It's because it's irrelevant.


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## coclimer (Jun 15, 2010)

Progress to date:

I'm part way through reading reviews and user comments on Fenix TK-11 (like it because it has 2 modes only; and partly for the looks!), and both the EagleTac P20C2 Mark II and Olight M20S (2 modes; others "hidden"). Will read Malkoff MD2/M61 (very simple to operate) next. 

Played with a couple of Surefires today and was able to operate the temporary switch and the twisty on/off switch single handed, but think, with so many other flashlights out there, I will just look at lights with temporary and on/off switches at the cap.

I'm torn between a more purpose designed house-light I now think should be two modes, ~10 lums and ~60 lums for getting all the family members into our safe-room (I never intend to go sweeping my house)... and a light with lots of modes and ~250 lums for playing with. HAVE I REALLY CAUGHT IT? In only a couple of days??? The gotta buy MORE than ONE?!

_Good advice from a couple of you, "Templar223" and "Uffstuffson", e.g. take the low-light shooter's course and then decide which to buy. As of now, none in the city where I live in. Will look into it more, later._
_But please, per "DM51" moderator in post 49 above... this thread is about hardware, and not training, home defense, or the safe way to bear arms, etc. TIA_


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## coclimer (Jun 15, 2010)

Search said:


> Herein lies the problem. Your right, everyone is wrong.


Search, you are terrible


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## Search (Jun 15, 2010)

coclimer said:


> Search, you are terrible



It's honestly a reason he and many others share. People think they are exactly right and when someone else has a different view it turns into an argument. No one can discuss why they feel that way.

If we all got on here and had a civil "talk" about where we are coming from these discussion would be different.


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## sappyg (Jun 15, 2010)

coclimer said:


> Progress todate:
> 
> I'm torn between a more purpose designed house-light I now think should be two modes, ~10 lums and ~60 lums for getting all the family members into our safe-room (I never intend to go sweeping my house)... and a light with lots of modes and ~250 lums for playing with. HAVE I REALLY CAUGHT IT? In only a couple of days??? The gotta buy MORE than ONE?!


 
i can't tell you how much i am enjoying your thought process here. very engaging. it seems the question has branched out a little bit and you're looking for utility as much as anything. 

yeah... you got it alright. :nana:

the only advise i can give is to go with your gut feelings and don't get caught up in lumin #'s. flood is under rated and lumins IMHO are over rated in so much as they make a light more desireable in some way.


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## coclimer (Jun 15, 2010)

sappyg said:


> i think in a lot of ways the OP could just as well asked the question 'what is a good, basic, general purpose flashlight for house use' and gotten some similar responses.


Hi sappyg,
I included the part about "handgun use" because flashlights and guns can be held in different ways. Six of several are: http://www.gunlight.org/2010/handgun-flashlight-techniques/ Knowing the intended use might help the poster consider factors like grip, for example. I should have spelled out earlier I need the light only to gather my family and not go looking for the bad guy. (And thanks for your comment above.)

All others,
The biggest help this thread had provide me so far: simple, lower light than I first thought, skip the strobe and blinding light. Why? Because assuming I can't get the bad guy to go away from our safe room with a call to 911 and threat of a gun, the light's primary role is to light up the subject to confirm he's a bad guy, and to provide light to line up the gun's sights; if the bad guy charges, it's aiming the gun first, not blinding light. 

I believe a low mode is good to gather the family, and the low or medium good for when using the gun. I looked a bit at less expensive options to do those two roles, but, "for only a little more" the lights suggested here (and listed in #1 post of this thread) are worth it, in reliablility, pride of owership, in ability to do other stuff as long as they can be "hidden" or at least won't get in the way. 

I may have gotten all the info I need... [thank you all]... but will let this run a bit more just in case. 

(Got to figure out how to close a thread... help?)


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## sappyg (Jun 15, 2010)

you can't close the thread until you tell us what you chose.... with pics of course.


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## Unforgiven (Jun 15, 2010)

Closed - OP request


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