# EagleTac 18650 or AW 18650?



## LitFuse (May 19, 2009)

I am looking to purchase about a half dozen protected 18650 cells for use in my new EagleTac M2 and M2X. 

Is there a consensus on the forum regarding the quality of the EagleTac 18650s? I've done some searching, but am not coming up with much info on them. Has anyone done any testing to see if they compare favorably to the AW 18650 cells? The extra 200 mah isn't a big concern for me, I'm just wondering about the overall quality of the cells.

I'm tempted to go with the tried and true AW 18650, but if the ETs are as good, I wouldn't mind saving some $ and getting them instead.

Any information would be appreciated. TIA. :wave:

Peter


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## mdocod (May 19, 2009)

They're pretty new but I did read one positive review on them over at PTS IIRC...

Honestly, if you buy them you are going to be the one telling us how good they are rather than the other way around as I doubt very many people have them at this time. 

If you are willing, I would ask that you buy a half dozen of each and give em a whirl for awhile and maybe you can let us know how they work out for ya....

It would be an interesting study to do some external tear-downs of an AW, Eagletac, TrustFire, Solarforce, Spiderfire, Ultrafire, Pila, and Wolf-Eyes cells, to see if some of them don't maybe share the same source of origin and could be more trusted... They are ALL chinese cells but some chinese cells seem to be better than others.

A search through a global trade website results in many brands, some more familiar than others, the name DLG pops up and they may be one of the better ones (pure speculation here). Others like KS and Shenzhen I've never heard of...


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## Toaster (May 19, 2009)

I saw a test of them here where they performed favorably compared to an AW 2200mAh 18650. AW 2600mAh 18650s are supposedly coming in late May which may be another option worth waiting for.


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## LitFuse (May 19, 2009)

Thanks for the replies guys. :thumbsup:

*mdocod*- If I had the time and equipment (and $) I would certainly take you up on your suggestion to buy a half dozen of each and go crazy... 

Unfortunately, that's not a possibility at this time. I do agree that unwrapping some of these cells would be a worthwhile endeavor.

*Toaster*- Thank you very much for the link! Wow, those EagleTacs really seem to kill the AW cells in that test. So much so, that it would seem that the capacity ratings on one (or both) of those brands are not accurate. I don't understand how the EagleTac cells could go almost a full hour longer than the AWs with only 200 mah more? It would seem that these cells would probably hold their own even against the upcoming AW 2600 cells?

I've never visited that site before, but while there I also came across this thread. Granted, the thread does not really offer a comprehensive review of the "other" cells tested, the author does seem to offer a very favorable opinion of the EagleTac 18650s. 

In the back of my mind I had pretty much decided that I would go with the AW 18650s because of their CPF track record, but the info Toaster provided has me thinking that I may give the EagleTac cells a try.


Peter


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## Black Rose (May 19, 2009)

Toaster said:


> AW 2600mAh 18650s are supposedly coming in late May which may be another option worth waiting for.


Aww crap...I just bought another AW 2200 mAh 18650 that should be here tomorrow. Oh well.


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## DHart (May 19, 2009)

Toaster said:


> I saw a test of them here where they performed favorably compared to an AW 2200mAh 18650. AW 2600mAh 18650s are supposedly coming in late May which may be another option worth waiting for.



WOW... the test results surprise me. I say that because I would have expected the capacity of the other lesser-revered brands to be overstated... but apparently the capacities are somewhat reasonably rated. If the Ultrafire 18650... a cell brand I always thought of as being low performing/low quality, can last so long, I would certainly expect AW to step up to the long capacity level. I'm sure there's more to the cells than that test reveals, but perhaps AW isn't the only game in quality town.


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## Black Rose (May 19, 2009)

I've got some of the black 2400 mAh Trustfire 18650s on the way (should have them in a few days according to tracking data) that I am going to test with my pair of Solarforce L2 lights and see how the cells compare.

Lermite confirmed they do in fact meet and/or exceed their 2400 mAh capacity rating depending on the current draw.

AW wins on the safety and "guaranteed to fit" aspects for sure. I have no complaints with the AW 18650 (and other sizes) cells I have.


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## DHart (May 19, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> AW wins on the safety and "guaranteed to fit" aspects for sure. I have no complaints with the AW 18650 (and other sizes) cells I have.



Agreed.. all my AW protected cells, 18650 and otherwise, have performed very well for me. In fact all of my Li-Ions were AW until I recently bought some Solarforce L2 lights from the solarforcestore which were supplied with no-brand, blue 18650s. And I recently bought a protected Ultrafire 14500 just on a whim. I haven't tested it's runtime against my AW protected 14500 cells though... there is a rating difference between them, IIRC.

But it's nice to see that some higher capacity 18650 cells are available. I wonder if they will hold up for as many cycles as an AW, or be as safe as AW. Such information isn't easy to come by.


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## LitFuse (May 20, 2009)

It looks like the link that Toaster provided has been updated with runtime data from the Pila and Wolf Eyes 18650s.

They both were better than the AW and Kai cells, but the EagleTac is still the clear winner. 

These are interesting results indeed...


Peter


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## vio765 (May 22, 2009)

i just broke in a set of eagletac 18650s and it is beating out my AW18650s in runtime tests. i ran my new Eagletac M2CX with the AW's. then i performed the same runtime tests with the ET18650's the ET18650's beat all AW's in all four settings about about 9% in time. not surprising to me, 2400mah is about 9% more capacity than 2200mah.


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## maxilux (May 23, 2009)

I have much of the EagleTac 18650, no problems, very good runtime, in my opinion one of the best 18650 you can buy in the moment. EagleTac said to me, they are based on Sanyo cell, what do you want more.


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## Black Rose (May 23, 2009)

maxilux said:


> EagleTac said to me, they are based on Sanyo cell, what do you want more.


Now that is a good bit of information right there :thumbsup:


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## LitFuse (May 23, 2009)

Yes, Sanyo has an excellent reputation as a battery manufacturer.

I ended up ordering 6 EagleTac 18650s from 4sevens. I got them yesterday along with 2 Yoho-122 chargers from Batterystation. Looks like I'm all set for those guilt-free lumens.

Peter


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## lrp (May 23, 2009)

I like AW's cells and have never had the first problem with any of them and been using them for several years and several different sizes!!


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## DHart (May 23, 2009)

It's great to see more options for quality batteries these days. Good on EagleTac and Ultrafire.


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## mdocod (May 24, 2009)

maxilux said:


> I have much of the EagleTac 18650, no problems, very good runtime, in my opinion one of the best 18650 you can buy in the moment. EagleTac said to me, they are based on Sanyo cell, what do you want more.



If these were in fact Sanyo cells with PCBs these would be the best bargain in flashlight oriented LiCo cells since, ever.... The concept of being "based on" probably means that the Sanyo design was the chosen design to "rip-off" by some chinese cell manufacture, but I can't say for certain either way... This just tends to be the more likely scenario...


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## maxilux (May 24, 2009)

I think the battery is from Sanyo and the protection is from EagleTac.


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## Greg G (May 24, 2009)

I can't find these on 4Sevens site. Anyone have a link?

Thanks.


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## wapkil (May 24, 2009)

Greg G said:


> I can't find these on 4Sevens site. Anyone have a link?



They are listed in the EagleTac-Store but not on 4sevens.com :shrug:


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## Black Rose (May 24, 2009)

mdocod said:


> If these were in fact Sanyo cells with PCBs these would be the best bargain in flashlight oriented LiCo cells since, ever.... The concept of being "based on" probably means that the Sanyo design was the chosen design to "rip-off" by some chinese cell manufacture, but I can't say for certain either way... This just tends to be the more likely scenario...


Without peeling the wrapper off and hoping to find Sanyo info on the bare cell, there is probably no way of really knowing.

EDIT: I found a photo of the EagleTac 18650 cells on another site. Cropped and rehosted the photo.
No need to peel the wrapper off, but there are no tell-tale signs of who makes it either. 
Doesn't seem to match photos of Sanyo 18650 cells I found.


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## Greg G (May 24, 2009)

Thanks wapkil. 

I hope verification of these being Sanyo made comes out soon. I'll buy them if they are and liquidate all my chinese made Li Ion's.


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## LEDAdd1ct (May 25, 2009)

I would like to see a fight between the Eagletac and the upcoming AW 2600 maH cell.


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## maxilux (May 25, 2009)

What is AW, i know no factory in the world called AW, what is AW really ? What is in it ? Panasonic? Sanyo? NoName? I think it is the same like EA, one brand in it an PCB on it and a new name on it, ready is AW


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## Lite_me (May 25, 2009)

Do the EagleTac's have a + nipple?


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## Monocrom (May 26, 2009)

DHart said:


> It's great to see more options for quality batteries these days. Good on EagleTac and Ultrafire.


 
Can't comment on Eagletac, but I do know that Ultrafire 18650s are about as predictable as the sanity level in a mental ward. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, sometimes they do but won't take a charge, etc.

As for me, I'll be sticking with AW 18650s. Those cells have been around long enough to have earned an excellent reputation. The handful that I own have never let me down.


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## DHart (May 26, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> Can't comment on Eagletac, but I do know that Ultrafire 18650s are about as predictable as the sanity level in a mental ward. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, sometimes they do but won't take a charge, etc.
> 
> As for me, I'll be sticking with AW 18650s. Those cells have been around long enough to have earned an excellent reputation. The handful that I own have never let me down.



Is it possible for a not-so-great-quality 18650 (like a no-name blue label cell) to cause erratic behavior in a programmable light? Even when the charge is adequate? I ask because I am trying one of the no-name blue label specials in my Jet III M and all of a sudden, the light is erratic in it's levels. :thinking: I've been using AW prior to this and never had this erratic behavior with the light.

ETA: I switched in an AW 18650 and the erratic behavior has not re-occurred. I guess a "cheap" cell can cause erratic behavior in a programmable light.


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## Varriano (May 26, 2009)

maxilux said:


> What is AW, i know no factory in the world called AW, what is AW really ? What is in it ? Panasonic? Sanyo? NoName? I think it is the same like EA, one brand in it an PCB on it and a new name on it, ready is AW


 
AW is the CPF handle. You can find the batteries in the Dealer section along with peoples experiences. I probably have about 24 of his PCB protected batteries ranging from 10440 (AA size) to C size. Never had a problem and always arrived from Asia in the US rapidly. I highly recommend the batteries. Check out others opinions.

V


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## Monocrom (May 26, 2009)

DHart said:


> ETA: I switched in an AW 18650 and the erratic behavior has not re-occurred. I guess a "cheap" cell can cause erratic behavior in a programmable light.


 
Looks like it's definitely possible. Yet another reason to avoid the cheap stuff, when it comes to rechargeables. I tried the cheap route only once, then took everyone's advice by getting AW cells. And all was good.


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## DHart (May 26, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> Looks like it's definitely possible. Yet another reason to avoid the cheap stuff, when it comes to rechargeables. I tried the cheap route only once, then took everyone's advice by getting AW cells. And all was good.



I agree on buying the good stuff. THe no-name blue label 18650s I have were "throw-ins" that came with the Solarforce L2 18650 lights I bought from the Solarforce store, so being free, what the heck. I guess they're worth what I paid for them.


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## csshih (May 26, 2009)

DHart said:


> Agreed.. all my AW protected cells, 18650 and otherwise, have performed very well for me. In fact all of my Li-Ions were AW until I recently bought some Solarforce L2 lights from the solarforcestore which were supplied with no-brand, blue 18650s.



solarforce*store*
isn't a reputable seller..... they actually sometimes provide fake solarforce products to save on costs... and in this case.. the 18650s.

solarforce actually makes their own protected 18650s.. I have 3 and they perform very well compared to the 1 AW 18650 I have.

you can buy them from a fellow cpf member, Jake25, at solarforcelights.com


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## DHart (May 26, 2009)

csshih said:


> solarforce*store*
> isn't a reputable seller.....



I have not found that to be the case in my dealings with them. Your comment is a serious accusation.



csshih said:


> they actually sometimes provide fake solarforce products to save on costs... and in this case.. the 18650s.



The 18650s they threw in with the $25 L2 flashlights were NOT represented to be Solarforce-brand cells... they were merely added in to sweeten the deal on the L2, which, btw, would have been incredibly sweet even without the free no-brand cell. My choice to buy the L2 flashlights had nothing to do with the fact that an 18650 cell would be included with each one... I took the freebie cell to be a "throw-away" if it didn't perform well... without any bad feelings at all. I bought the Solarforce L2 flashlight, not the 18650 cell.



csshih said:


> solarforce actually makes their own protected 18650s.. I have 3 and they perform very well compared to the 1 AW 18650 I have.



I'm quite happy sticking with AW brand cells at this point; they have a long and well-established reputation among some very particular flashaholics around here... not a small consideration!


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## Black Rose (May 26, 2009)

csshih said:


> solarforce*store*
> isn't a reputable seller.....


There are a lot of folks here that have dealt with them that would argue that point.

Anyway, that's not the point of this thread....back to EagleTac vs AW in the 18650 arena.


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## 1dash1 (May 26, 2009)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> I would like to see a fight between the Eagletac and the upcoming AW 2600 maH cell.


 

*Upcoming AW2600?* They are here.


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## phantom23 (May 30, 2009)

Toaster said:


> I saw a test of them here where they performed favorably compared to an AW 2200mAh 18650. AW 2600mAh 18650s are supposedly coming in late May which may be another option worth waiting for.



Mev updated his thread with 2600mAh AWs and black Trustfires. Results are interesting...


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## Black Rose (May 30, 2009)

Nice to see some more data on those new black TrustFire cells.

They are a good deal, but we'll have to wait and see if capacity loss creeps in over time & cycles. 

I get the impression these new cells from TrustFire aren't like the old grey or blue ones.


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## DHart (May 30, 2009)

WOW.. the red label Ultrafire 3000 mAh looks like a great performing cell - nice long life including the tail. The new AW 2600 mAh is looking good too. These are making the older AW 2200 mAh cells look pretty much "yesterday's cell".


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## phantom23 (May 30, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> They are a good deal, but we'll have to wait and see if capacity loss creeps in over time & cycles.
> 
> I get the impression these new cells from TrustFire aren't like the old grey or blue ones.



All Li-Ion cells get older, Trustfire or AW are not exceptions.

Grey/Blue Trustfires are fine too...


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## MiniLux (May 30, 2009)

DHart said:


> The new AW 2600 mAh is over twice the price of the AW 2200 mAh.


 
$14.75 vs $12.00 ... twice the price? 

MiniLux


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## DHart (May 30, 2009)

MiniLux said:


> $14.75 vs $12.00 ... twice the price?
> 
> MiniLux



... no, I was looking at the wrong pricing originally. You've got it right at $14.75 and $12. Definitely worth the extra $2.75! :thumbsup:


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## Greg G (May 30, 2009)

Well I went with 6 Eagle Tac 18650's. For me the extra 200mah of the new AW 2600 18650 isn't worth paying over 50% more per battery.


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## DHart (May 30, 2009)

Wow... two of those Trustfire 2400's can be had for $10 including shipping vs. two AW 2600 mAh for about $34 including shipping. At more than a 3-to-1 price difference, those Trustfires are looking like a _*really*_ sweet deal... even if longevity isn't nearly as good (and in fact, I get the feeling that longevity isn't likely to be radically different.) Are the AW cells demonstrably worth 3X the price?


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## Black Rose (May 30, 2009)

phantom23 said:


> All Li-Ion cells get older, Trustfire or AW are not exceptions.


That was more of a comment on jirik_cz note about the *fire cells losing 10-30% capacity after 6-12 months use.


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## Black Rose (May 30, 2009)

DHart said:


> Wow... two of those Trustfire 2400's can be had for $10 including shipping vs. two AW 2600 mAh for about $34 including shipping.


I've got a pair of those 2400 mAh TrustFire 18650s here. 
2 for $10 for protected 2400 mAh 18650 cells is a great deal. 
CPF/DX member Lermite confirmed through discharge tests that they are actually slightly over 2400 mAh depending on the load.



> Are the AW cells demonstrably worth 3X the price?


That's a hard question to answer.

I have no major issues with the AW cells I currently have, but I also purchased 2 TrustFire 16340 & 2 TrustFire 18650 cells in order to have sufficient quantities on hand. ($40 vs $15 for the same number of cells). It's a gamble that may or may not pay off - only time will tell.


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## Monocrom (May 31, 2009)

DHart said:


> Are the AW cells demonstrably worth 3X the price?


 
If they perform like his other cells, I'd have to say "yes."


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## phantom23 (May 31, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> That was more of a comment on jirik_cz note about the *fire cells losing 10-30% capacity after 6-12 months use.



There's no such thing like *fire cells. Ultrafires are cr*p, Trustfires are great (especially for the price). Capacity loss is normal for intensively used Li-Ions, Mev's AWs lost their capacity in a few months as well. 

RCR123 are even more fragile, after 10 full charge-discharge cycles they have noticeably lower capacity than new ones.


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## DHart (May 31, 2009)

Since all of these cells wear out sooner rather than later with lots of use, even a cell which wears out a little more quickly than another, if priced significantly lower, might be a reasonably good choice. :thinking:

I've been happy with the AW protected 18650s I've bought (and the 18500s, 17500s, 17670s, 16340s, and 14500s). They're a good choice for sure.

But I have heard a lot of positive comments about Trustfires... might as will give 'em a try. I'm going to venture out a little bit farther and try a pair of those Trustfire 18650 2400 mAhs for $10. At $5 ea., I think they're definitely worth a try.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 1, 2009)

That review of the new AW 2600 vs. the EagleTac caught my attention. Not intending to cast negative aspersions (who me?), but do we know how Light-Reviews did the details of their comparison? That graph doesn't say much about the load used, or tester setup used. Maybe I'll get a few of the Eagle's and have a little look-see of my own.

Anyone sort through the maze of light models they have there for the "keepers?"


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## Tohuwabohu (Jun 1, 2009)

I have tested some of the new 18650s at 1A discharge current.







When you only look for capacity per $ the black Trustfires ar hard to beat.
But I don't know if the Trustfires have the same safety features as the AWs.
Mechanical build quality of the AW batteries seems better.
One detail: they have a metal disc as negative contact an not only a piece of pcb as the Trustfire and Ultrafire cells.

The new AWs have a flat top and don't work in Flashlights with mechanical reverse polarity protection as for example the Eagletac T100C2.

The Eagletac 18650s are slightly bigger than all other 18650s I have.
They are a very tight fit im my Jetbeam Jet-III Pro and they are so long that some force has to be used to screw the tailcap down to make contact with the body tube.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 1, 2009)

Tohu, thanks for showing that graph, but it is hard to read with such slight color variations of curves, and small size legend. What program did you use to run these tests?

I would want to test mine at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Amps. I have a CBA-II and Competition Electric CE-35 with battery cradle & graphing program.


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## Tohuwabohu (Jun 1, 2009)

I use an ELV ALC 3000 PC charger to record the data and OpenOffice Calc to plot the graphs.
I removed the Ultrafire 3000mAh data, changed some colors and the font size of the legend.
I accidentaly had saved the previous graph as jpg, I am using gif now.
It should be easier to read now.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Jun 1, 2009)

Nice! That graph is easier to read.


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## jirik_cz (Jun 1, 2009)

Here are my tests with CBA II. Looks like my AW 2600 are slightly better.


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## phantom23 (Jun 1, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Not intending to cast negative aspersions (who me?), but do we know how Light-Reviews did the details of their comparison? That graph doesn't say much about the load used, or tester setup used.



EagleTac T100C2 pulls 0,85A as long as the battery voltage is higher than emitter Vf. 
About all these graphs I think Mev's one is better, more practical, I can see not only runtime but also how it behaves near the and - sudden or gradual drop (sudden death is really unpleasant thing). It's not theoretical, with DD discharge curve (how many 18650 lights are totally unregulated?).


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## Tohuwabohu (Jun 1, 2009)

phantom23 said:


> EagleTac T100C2 pulls 0,85A as long as the battery voltage is higher than emitter Vf.


The emitter is driven at 0.85A as long as the battery voltage is high enough.
Current draw from the battery is lower for most of the time because of the buck curcuit.
At the point where the light drops out of regulation emitter current and current drawn from the battery both are 0.85A. 



> About all these graphs I think Mev's one is better, more practical, I can see not only runtime but also how it behaves near the and - sudden or gradual drop (sudden death is really unpleasant thing). It's not theoretical, with DD discharge curve (how many 18650 lights are totally unregulated?).


It's even better to have both types of graphs .
I have done runtime plots with my Eagletac T100C2 with 3 different 18650s. I took the best one of each type: AW2600, black Trustfire 2400 and Eagletac 2400.
The results are exactly what I expected from my 1A discharge graphs.

The AW 2600 stays in regulation only some minutes longer than the black Trustfire.

The Trustfire shows the steepest drop after the regulated period.

The Eagletac has the lowest voltage under load and therefore drops out of regulation quite early and has the longest tail.
And it's the only one that shuts off because the overdischarge protection is triggered.






The problem with these graphs is that they are only valid for my T100C2.
The could look different with another T100C2 with an emitter with a different forward voltage.
With other flashlights with different drivers the graphs would look completely different.
With an Eagletac T10L for example, which has a buck-boost circuit, all of the batteries would give a perfectly regulated output untill the protection curcuit triggers and shuts the light off without any warning.

Constant current discharge graphs can be produced with different type of equipment and still give comparable results.


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## metlarules (Jun 1, 2009)

Can one of you run a test of the Aw 2600mah at .2c(520mah)? This is where the cell was tested to get it's 2600mah rating. So far these new Aw's seem to be a winner.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 1, 2009)

Tohu, thanks for additional graphs. Much easier to see the lines without my eyes going :duh2:

Phantom, I get your point....but....IMHO, the proper way to test and present batteries for a useful review is to document their performance with a range of loads applied by a reliable discharge device. It also makes a big difference how the connections are made in the testing platform, as some methods introduce a falsely elevated amount of resistance.

While I have some LED Buck/Boost setups, I'm also looking at 18650 cells from a direct drive incan setup such as with this 3A Carley 1794 1000L bulb here.


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## vincebdx (Jun 1, 2009)

I create this graph to compare:




Data: http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2870/tableauj.png


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## metlarules (Jun 1, 2009)

vincebdx said:


> I create this graph to compare:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Now do a similar chart except this time do it as quality/dollar. I bet AW cells would come in at or near the top.


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## vincebdx (Jun 1, 2009)

Yes but is difficult, example, when i see 86 votes with 4/5 stars and ~56 positive reviews i can think Trustfire blue label are top quality too.

Be carefull the Trustfire2500 and AW2600 have got the same physical compatibility problem with some flashlight.


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## Sgt. LED (Jun 1, 2009)

This thread has fully convinced me to get the EagleTac batteries. 3 of them arrived here Saturday actually, I'm just a bit late posting this.

Low cost, good performance, and no compatablity issues. They are a tiny bit longer than my AW cells but the fit is just fine in all of my 18650 lights.
:thumbsup:


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## LitFuse (Jun 1, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Low cost, good performance, and no compatablity issues. They are a tiny bit longer than my AW cells but the fit is just fine in all of my 18650 lights.
> :thumbsup:



I just got an L-Mini II today. The EagleTac 18650s won't fit, they're too long. They actually stick out about a mm past the L-Mini's body tube.

Has anyone else had any fitment issues with the ET 18650s?


Peter


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## Sgt. LED (Jun 1, 2009)

I guess your EagleTac cell is longer than my 3. I'd guess them to be about 1mm longer total VS AW on these here. 

I wonder if trimming the spring down a bit would make it work?


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## LitFuse (Jun 1, 2009)

I have 6 of them, they are all between 68.40 and 68.50mm. I don't have any other protected cells to compare them with.

I am going to try removing a section of the spring to get them to fit.


Peter


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## DHart (Jun 1, 2009)

Man... I just keep hearing more good things about Trustfire batteries... a brand that was totally off my radar until now. Looks like a good bet on those!


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## Tohuwabohu (Jun 1, 2009)

LitFuse said:


> I just got an L-Mini II today. The EagleTac 18650s won't fit, they're too long. They actually stick out about a mm past the L-Mini's body tube.
> 
> Has anyone else had any fitment issues with the ET 18650s?
> 
> ...


As I wrote in post #48 they are a very tight fit im my Jetbeam Jet-III Pro and they are so long that some force has to be used to screw the tailcap down to make contact with the body tube.
Here is a photo showing 4 different types of 18650s in my Jetbeam Jet-III Pro IBS (no spring at the postive contact of the driver).
AW 2600mAh flat top - black Trustfire 2400mAh
red Ultrafire 3000mAh - Eagletac 2400mAh


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## metlarules (Jun 2, 2009)

Judging by the pictures I would stick with the AW's. They would seem to fit the largest number of lights without fitment issues. Quality,fitment,and now capacity I'll stick with the AW's. Keep in mind that AW cells also will light up high drain incandescent bulbs on the 1st click. Some of the other brands need multiple clicks to light.


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## gswitter (Jun 2, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> I would want to test mine at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Amps. I have a CBA-II and Competition Electric CE-35 with battery cradle & graphing program.


I'd very much like to see this as well. Maybe even .5A and another lower draw or two as well.


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## johnny3073 (Jun 2, 2009)

I've needed to buy some good 18650s for about 3 months now. I keep waiting for one of our dealers to score some of these Panasonic 2900mAh NCR18650s. 

From every test I've seen they run all over everything else out there. IIRC the tests looked something like this:

.5A ~ 3000 +/- mAh
1A ~ 2900 +/- mAh
2A ~ 2800 +/- mAh

Unfortunately they seem to be harder to find than a leprechaun :shrug:.


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## Sgt. LED (Jun 2, 2009)

metlarules said:


> Judging by the pictures I would stick with the AW's. They would seem to fit the largest number of lights without fitment issues. Quality,fitment,and now capacity I'll stick with the AW's. Keep in mind that AW cells also will light up high drain incandescent bulbs on the 1st click. Some of the other brands need multiple clicks to light.


 Aren't the new AW cells flat tops? Won't that be an issue with many lights? If you add a button top to it or a thin magnet then won't they be as long as the EagleTacs?


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## Black Rose (Jun 2, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Aren't the new AW cells flat tops? Won't that be an issue with many lights? If you add a button top to it or a thin magnet then won't they be as long as the EagleTacs?


Unless the lights have a spring attached to the light engine like P60 drop-ins do, the new AW cells will be a problem.


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## Juggernaut (Jun 2, 2009)

Were is the best place to get the $5 black label 18650 TrustFires:thinking:?


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## DHart (Jun 2, 2009)

Juggernaut said:


> Were is the best place to get the $5 black label 18650 TrustFires:thinking:?



Here ya go.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20392

I think this is the sweet deal in 18650 cells these days.


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## jtsgalaxy (Jun 2, 2009)

johnny3073 said:


> I've needed to buy some good 18650s for about 3 months now. I keep waiting for one of our dealers to score some of these Panasonic 2900mAh NCR18650s.
> 
> From every test I've seen they run all over everything else out there. IIRC the tests looked something like this:
> 
> ...


 
The cell now avaliable at ebay or here, sorry no 0.5A but 1-2-3A test. It has a small button top about 0.2mm on the positive side,
will reach their maximum capacity after 3-4 break-in cycles.


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## Sgt. LED (Jun 2, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> Unless the lights have a spring attached to the light engine like P60 drop-ins do, the new AW cells will be a problem.


I thought so.


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## DHart (Jun 2, 2009)

jtsgalaxy said:


> The cell now avaliable at ebay or here, sorry no 0.5A but 1-2-3A test. It has a small button top about 0.2mm on the positive side,
> will reach their maximum capacity after 3-4 break-in cycles.



Wow... kind of surprising that a cell like this from a manufacturer as major as Panasonic has only one retail outlet, a seller in Hong Kong who has practically no proven track record as a seller.  Not to discredit jtsgalaxy by any means, but it is amazing that other retail outlets aren't readily accessible.

On further investigation, it looks like Panasonic only sells li-ions to companies that assemble the cells into packs (for laptop computers and such) with added protective circuits in the packs. Evidently, the individual cells from jts are not protected cells.


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## TAIGERSX (Jun 2, 2009)

Anybody knows if EagleTac 18650 can fit inside charger WF 139 ?


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## johnny3073 (Jun 2, 2009)

jtsgalaxy said:


> The cell now avaliable at ebay or here, sorry no 0.5A but 1-2-3A test. It has a small button top about 0.2mm on the positive side,
> will reach their maximum capacity after 3-4 break-in cycles.


 
Thanks! That's exactly what I've been looking for .


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## vincebdx (Jun 2, 2009)

Trustfire blue label at 4.5$ per 18650


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## jirik_cz (Jun 2, 2009)

vincebdx said:


> Trustfire blue label at 4.5$ per 18650



looks like these are unprotected.


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## wapkil (Jun 2, 2009)

jirik_cz said:


> looks like these are unprotected.



How do you tell which are which? The package looks identical to me...


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## vincebdx (Jun 2, 2009)

jirik_cz said:


> looks like these are unprotected.


I dont think, unprotected have flat top and the comment say "I like that the cell is protected".


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## bewshy (Jun 3, 2009)

TAIGERSX said:


> Anybody knows if EagleTac 18650 can fit inside charger WF 139 ?



They do. I had no problem charging my single ET 18650 in my WF 139.


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## jirik_cz (Jun 3, 2009)

wapkil said:


> How do you tell which are which? The package looks identical to me...



There is nothing about protection in the description and there is no protection circuit visible on the pictures. But if the guy in the comment says they are protected...


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## harddrive (Jun 4, 2009)

Has anyone had problems with the Eagletac 18650 making contact in a T100C2? A friend of mine emailed saying he can't get them to work but they work fine in another light with a P60 style drop in. (His T100C2 does work with a AW 18650) It sounds like the positive end is not making contact. Does the Eagletac battery has a realy small button top or something?


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## DHart (Jun 4, 2009)

Given all the presented data on runtimes, fitment issues, price, performance, etc. I'm totally sold on the Trustfire Black 2400 mAh cells at two for $10.. and a little surprised at choices for some of the competing cells, given the various issues that are being brought up. For the record, I did put my money on the black label Trusties... ordered a pair from DX for $10... can't wait to get 'em!


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## MiniLux (Jun 11, 2009)

jtsgalaxy said:


> The cell now avaliable at ebay or here, sorry no 0.5A but 1-2-3A test. It has a small button top about 0.2mm on the positive side,
> will reach their maximum capacity after 3-4 break-in cycles.


 



jtsgalaxy said:


> The cell now avaliable at ebay or here, sorry no 0.5A but 1-2-3A test. It has a small button top about 0.2mm on the positive side,
> will reach their maximum capacity after 3-4 break-in cycles.


 
I ordered a batch of these, got them two days ago, charged ...
As I don't have a suitable discharger, I did a runtime test on Legion 2.

Runtime (max) on Panasonic NCR18650 2900mAH (1st charge):
2h52 starts blinking
2h55 shuts off

As a comparison:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2975299&postcount=45
Runtime (max) on 18650 AW 2600mAh (1st charge):
02h32 shuts off


MiniLux


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## brightnorm (Jun 11, 2009)

Because I survived a high-rise fire I tend to be very conservative and safety-oriented when it comes to LiON rechargeables. I'm sure that many other batteries are fine but I stick with Pila LiONs and charge them only in Pila's proprietary late generation charger. The batteries (in Pila chargers) have proven themselves over several years to be safe and very reliable.

Because of the Pilas vitually flawless record over the years I'm willing to spend a little more on these 2200mah batteries, even though there are others with more capacity and possibly just as safe.

Brightnorm


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## metlarules (Jun 11, 2009)

brightnorm said:


> Because I survived a high-rise fire I tend to be very conservative and safety-oriented when it comes to LiON rechargeables. I'm sure that many other batteries are fine but I stick with Pila LiONs and charge them only in Pila's proprietary late generation charger. The batteries (in Pila chargers) have proven themselves over several years to be safe and very reliable.
> 
> Because of the Pilas vitually flawless record over the years I'm willing to spend a little more on these 2200mah batteries, even though there are others with more capacity and possibly just as safe.
> 
> Brightnorm


 I use the Pila charger also. However, I've had excellent service and quality with AW's batteries. But I know what you mean.


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## richardcpf (Jun 11, 2009)

This means no offense to AW and his products, but I did the test and:

None of my 2 AW 2200ma 18650 protected the cell when they were at low voltage.. I did a full discharge with my TK11R2 and the readings were around 2.7v, however, I could keep draining them. My trustfire cells did not kick in neither.. My tenergy 18650 protected the battery at 2.9V.

Answering those people who wants to know if AW are worth a so much higher price, my answer would be *No*. His costumer service and support is nice, but speaking about the product, performance-wise, is not that good. Capacity is lower than my trustfires and tenergy, and protection circuit did not act like I expected.

This is just my personal opinion, and again, means no offense.

Those trustfires with fire wrapping looks nice, I wonder how long will their protection circuit last. I got 4 grey trustfires and one has a broken protection circuit, not a big issue for me, as long as you know how to take care and mantain li-ion cells, there are almost no difference between protected or not.

*I found a link for Panasonic 2900ma 18650* According to graphs this is the best performing 18650 cell in the market. :twothumbs


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## DHart (Jun 11, 2009)

richardcpf said:


> This means no offense to AW and his products, but I did the test and:
> 
> None of my 2 AW 2200ma 18650 protected the cell when they were at low voltage.. I did a full discharge with my TK11R2 and the readings were around 2.7v, however, I could keep draining them. My trustfire cells did not kick in neither.. My tenergy 18650 protected the battery at 2.9V.
> 
> ...



In several tests I've seen here and there, protection circuits in cells that claim to have them have not worked. From that, it's pretty clear to me that the Li-Ion user should really treat even protected li-ions as if they were unprotected. I do. And the more I read reports such as yours the more I realize that one just needs to understand the usage and charging requirements of non-protected li-ions and treat ALL li-ions, protected included, with the same respect.

Still eagerly awaiting my (two for $9.99) black & red label Trustie protected 18650 2400 mAh cells from DX. I think they're going to be great cells at a bargain price. And I'm going to basically treat them as though they are unprotected.


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## Black Rose (Jun 11, 2009)

DHart said:


> Still eagerly awaiting my (two for $9.99) black & red label Trustie protected 18650 2400 mAh cells from DX. I think they're going to be great cells at a bargain price.


Those cells perform great due to their low internal resistance. 

I did a run time test with one of mine over the weekend with my modified 3-mode regulated Superbright R2 drop-in: 
2 hours 26 minutes @ 1A before the circuit dropped to low mode by design.

True 2400 mAh (actually a little more) for basically $5.00 a piece. 

Regarding the protection circuits triggering or not triggering, it depends on the current draw. If your light doesn't have that current draw or higher, it won't trigger the protection circuit. That applies to AWs cells as well as others.


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## DHart (Jun 12, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> Regarding the protection circuits triggering or not triggering, it depends on the current draw. If your light doesn't have that current draw or higher, it won't trigger the protection circuit. That applies to AWs cells as well as others.



Interesting... I didn't know that. So, it is likely that the majority of reported failed protection circuits are simply due to the draw not being enough? In either event, looks like it makes a lot of sense to treat a protected cell like a non-protected cell.


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## wapkil (Jun 12, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> Regarding the protection circuits triggering or not triggering, it depends on the current draw. If your light doesn't have that current draw or higher, it won't trigger the protection circuit. That applies to AWs cells as well as others.



What is the minimum current required for the overdischarge protection to work? 

I remember seeing the protection triggering at the currents below 5mA. That would translate to something around a single lumen or two emitted by an LED. Where did you get the information about the current requirement from?


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## wapkil (Jun 12, 2009)

richardcpf said:


> This means no offense to AW and his products, but I did the test and:
> 
> None of my 2 AW 2200ma 18650 protected the cell when they were at low voltage.. I did a full discharge with my TK11R2 and the readings were around 2.7v, however, I could keep draining them. My trustfire cells did not kick in neither.. My tenergy 18650 protected the battery at 2.9V.



Different protection circuits can have different cutoff voltage settings. Some of them as high as 3V some as low as 2.4V. I think AW's batteries are set on the lower end of the scale. They won't cut off at 2.7V, more like 2.5V - have you tried to go that low?


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## Black Rose (Jun 12, 2009)

wapkil said:


> What is the minimum current required for the overdischarge protection to work?


It depends on the protextion circuit being used.



> Where did you get the information about the current requirement from?


From the 18650 shootout thread on light reviews.


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## wapkil (Jun 12, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> It depends on the protextion circuit being used.
> 
> From the 18650 shootout thread on light reviews.



I think it must be some kind of misunderstanding. Out of 8 batteries that Mev tested in this shootout, he reported the protection circuit working in only a single one. I suspect the circuits work correctly, but at lower levels than he expects. 

Mev finished his AW battery test at 2.71V and AFAIK that's not the cutoff voltage for AW batteries. I tested that they cutoff at 2.47V - 2.50V. Andrew (AW) answered me in this thread that "most ICs are set to 2.45V". Indeed, in the protection ICs datasheets that I read the level was typically set to 2.3V-2.5V. 
I would also love to hear what for the overdischarge protection circuit could possibly require the external current - never heard about it before :shrug:


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## brightnorm (Jun 12, 2009)

DHart said:


> ...it's pretty clear to me that the Li-Ion user should really treat even protected li-ions as if they were unprotected. ...I realize that one just needs to understand the usage and charging requirements of non-protected li-ions and treat ALL li-ions, protected included, with the same respect.


Could you please summarize the specifics of this approach. I think I'm quite safe with my Pilas/Pila chargers, but any additionl information would be helpful.

Brightnorm


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## DHart (Jun 12, 2009)

brightnorm said:


> Could you please summarize the specifics of this approach. I think I'm quite safe with my Pilas/Pila chargers, but any additionl information would be helpful.
> 
> Brightnorm



Brightnorm... well... I'm definitely not the expert on this topic by any means, but I've read a lot of the li-ion use primers available on this forum and heard a number of the horror stories about venting, etc. I treat protected and unprotected li-ions the exact same way. While most of my li-ions are protected, a few are not. I never rely on the cells IC protection circuit to prevent a problem. It's just nice to know that the IC *may* help prevent a problem. I can boil down what I've learned to these things... for both protected and unprotected li-ions this is what I do, in a nutshell:

1) when charging, be around and aware enough to notice when the charger gives the green light and pull your cells off then! Don't charge if you're going to leave the house or go to sleep for the night.

2) immediately following charging, do a voltage test to confirm the charge isn't over "around" 4.19-4.2. There is no magic number here, just a guideline. And consider the inaccuracy potential of your DMM as well. That considered: 4.10 to 4.19 seems to be the "sweet" zone. Much over 4.2, like 4.25 or more, can damage the cell/cause bad things to happen. Check that the cells aren't getting too warm when charging as well.

3) don't use a charger which has a tendency to over charge. 

4) make sure your charger is on a fire-proof base so if a melt down should occur, a fire is less likely to happen. (I use a 1/3" thick, 12"x12" granite tile as a base for my chargers. Some go so far as to use a fire-proof box to contain the charger.) 

5) don't allow Li-Ions to over-discharge. Apparently going as low as about 2.7v may be ok if NECESSARY, but 3.0v to 3.2v is generally considered to be drained. I always top off my li-ions well before getting anywhere near that level. Li-Ions don't have a memory, so you can recharge/top-off anywhere in the working range (let's say that the proper working range is 3.4v to 4.2v). Typically I top off my Li-Ions when they get down to about 3.7 or so. Li-Ions require some conscientious attention... or don't use 'em!

6) in the event of a "venting event"  do what you can to avoid inhaling any fumes!!!! Ideally, get the "event" out of your house. The fumes can be very hazardous to breathe.

7) Li-Ions should only be used by those who will learn the do's and don'ts of Li-Ions and strictly adhere to them... otherwise nasty things can (and DO) happen. Using Li-Ions ain't like your grandpa's alkalines! Be AWARE.

8) Li-Ions are an incredible powering technology offering tremendous potency to flashlights. Don't fear Li-Ions, there is no need to fear them if you understand what you're doing. Use them and enjoy their amazing power!

========

Note... Lithium-Ions (Li-Ions) are not to be confused with lithium primaries, Li-Ions are rechargeable and lithium primaries are not. Lithium primaries have their own set of dangers, however... they are safest when used singly. When used two or three together, cell matching is extremely important with lithium primaries... using two lithium primaries (CR123) which are mismatched can cause nasty venting events as well. To be safest, NEVER use two lithium primaries together in the same light at the same time unless you are sure they are well matched.

My preference in flashlights, mostly for safety reasons and also for convenience, is to use a single cell to power them whenever it is possible to do so. I also prefer to use Li-Ion cells in my lights whenever possible, with NiMH as a secondary source. I only keep primaries for back-up/emergency/long term storage use. I have a couple of lights/lamps which require two cells, but most of my lamp assemblies run happily on a single cell, whether it be a lithium primary or a 10440, 14500, 16340, 17500, or 18650. It's just a little simpler and somewhat safer that way.


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## Burgess (Jun 12, 2009)

Excellent job, DHart.


:thumbsup:

_


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## richardcpf (Jun 13, 2009)

If the protection circuit triggers only when the current reaches a certain number, then it fails to protect the cell.

*I can discharge them at lets say 50ma and slowly kill the battery, the protection circuit will not cutoff?* There is no point to adding "protection" since almost no flashlight will do a high current draw at those low voltages.

I'm buying panasonics 2800ma unprotected from now.


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## DHart (Jun 13, 2009)

richardcpf said:


> I'm buying panasonics 2800ma unprotected from now.



Actually, not really a bad idea, richard :shakehead , if (as I do) you tend to treat all Li-Ions as unprotected cells. :duh2:


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## brightnorm (Jun 13, 2009)

Thanks DHart. Very informative and helpful

Brightnorm


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## DHart (Jun 13, 2009)

I'm very happy if my post can be helpful or informative to anyone. Thank you.


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## picard (Jun 13, 2009)

Does Eagletac have long run time ? 

I am concerned about the low 2400mAH compare to Tenergy 3000mAH. 

Does 2400mAH mean it produce less juice?


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