# High CRI XML.....does it exist?



## Brasso (May 7, 2011)

Anyone? 

I have a dream...


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## DM51 (May 8, 2011)

Let's try this in the LED (emitters) section. It's a better place for it anyway.


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## dirtech (May 8, 2011)

As the recent owner of two high cri xpg lights, I hope so. The xpg is excellent.


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## mvyrmnd (May 8, 2011)

Yes, they do, but it's not your standard XM-L. It's actually multi-die.

The XM-L Easy White has a minimum 90-CRI version

http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp_xml_ezw.asp


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## Brasso (May 8, 2011)

Can someone forward this to Mr. Malkoff? If only...


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## ElectronGuru (May 10, 2011)

Brasso said:


> I have a dream...


 
Just remember, by the time the ultimate XML is ready to ship, it will be lumenarily obsoleted by the next great LED, which in turn will start with cool white only.


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## kaichu dento (Jun 16, 2011)

Anyone got their hands on one of the high CRI XM-L's yet? I really want one for my V10R Ti, and probably a couple other lights come to think of it...


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## mvyrmnd (Jun 16, 2011)

Nope, but I have a project for 3 of them, if I can find someone willing to wield their soldering iron on my behalf.


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## Colorblinded (Jun 16, 2011)

I'd be putting high CRI XMLs in everything if their CCT was in the neutral white range.


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## bbawkon (Jun 16, 2011)

mvyrmnd said:


> Nope, but I have a project for 3 of them, if I can find someone willing to wield their soldering iron on my behalf.


 
I can solder them with an iron for you, or put down some solder paste and run them through the re-flow oven. Up to you, and for 3, I'm happy to do it for the friendly price of free...

Ben


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## morelightnow (Jun 17, 2011)

ElectronGuru said:


> Just remember, by the time the ultimate XML is ready to ship, it will be lumenarily obsoleted by the next great LED, which in turn will start with cool white only.


 
I'm waiting on this specific emitter because of the die size. I like wider beams in my lights.

I don't think it's in production yet, but when it is, I'm going to stuff one in an hds clicky.


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## jasonck08 (Jun 18, 2011)

Highest CRI "normal" XM-L you'll find is Cree's Warm White XM-L. It's about 80 CRI.

Easywhite XML (the 4 Die XML's) have vF's of 6-12v, so won't be good for most flashlights.



Colorblinded said:


> I'd be putting high CRI XMLs in everything if their CCT was in the neutral white range.



Do all your lights run off 6-12v+? If not, High CRI XM-L's will not be an option. Check the datasheets. Your best bet is warm white ~80 CRI XM-L.


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## Colorblinded (Jun 18, 2011)

jasonck08 said:


> Highest CRI "normal" XM-L you'll find is Cree's Warm White XM-L. It's about 80 CRI.
> 
> Easywhite XML (the 4 Die XML's) have vF's of 6-12v, so won't be good for most flashlights.
> 
> ...


 my point was the product I want doesn't seem to exist yet


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## LEDAdd1ct (Aug 14, 2011)

Any updates on these? LEDAdd1cts want to know. 

Or, any updates on that "next great LED?"


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## mvyrmnd (Aug 14, 2011)

I'm currently negotiating with a modder to fit one in a Jetbeam M1X. It has a 2S2P MC-E, and the 6v XM-L EW should be a compatible upgrade. I'll post updates when the mod is done.


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## Microa (Aug 14, 2011)

I am interested in your XML EW mod. Looking forwards to your updated post.


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## qwertyydude (Aug 15, 2011)

I think the High CRI XM-L will have to be multi-die to prevent the hard to manage color separation where you get a warmer tint out the sides vs directly in front where it'll be cooler.


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## maxspeeds (Nov 23, 2011)

Is 80 CRI still the highest for XML's?


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## maxspeeds (Mar 23, 2012)

Still hoping for a high cri XML at 4500k to 5500k. Any news on Cree updating the XML?


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## flashflood (Mar 23, 2012)

ElectronGuru said:


> Just remember, by the time the ultimate XML is ready to ship, it will be lumenarily obsoleted by the next great LED, which in turn will start with cool white only.



Sadly, it's been almost a year since you posted this, and nothing has changed. The brightest Cree LED is still the XM-L, the highest flux bins are still T6 and U2, and there aren't even rumors of U3, much less of a true next generation. After several years of breathtaking progress, it seems like the whole LED world has stalled. Not just Cree, but everyone else too. There have been all kinds of great developments in the labs, and supporting innovations like remote phosphor and multi-emitter packages, but no evident progress toward a brighter single emitter. I want my XQ-Z!


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## THE_dAY (Mar 23, 2012)

It might take more work to get the XML into high CRI territory since the Cool white version has a lower CRI (65 typ) when compared to the XPG, XPE, and XRE which have a CRI of 75 typ.


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## maxspeeds (Mar 23, 2012)

The "best" XML I have right now is the warm white variety, which are 80CRI @ 3500k. They're not bad, but I want moooore! :nana:


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## Got Lumens? (Mar 23, 2012)

Aside from the Vf 6-12, There is a bright spot  the easy white 4 die XM-Ls are pretty warm with a narrower angle of 115 degrees than the standard 125 degress XM-L we see in flashlights now. I too would like to see some :naughty:


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## kaichu dento (Apr 27, 2012)

Now with the RRT-01/TC-R1 I'm really hoping to see a breakthrough, either from Cree with a XM-L equivalent to the hCRI XP-G, or from Nichia, who recently released their XP-G replacement version of the hCRI 119, called the 219.

Maybe they could call it the Nichia hCRI 319, and I would predict a lot of excitement here on CPF at very least, but also for custom home lighting market as well.


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## psychbeat (Apr 27, 2012)

kaichu dento said:


> Now with the RRT-01/TC-R1 I'm really hoping to see a breakthrough, either from Cree with a XM-L equivalent to the hCRI XP-G, or from Nichia, who recently released their XP-G replacement version of the hCRI 119, called the 219.
> 
> Maybe they could call it the Nichia hCRI 319, and I would predict a lot of excitement here on CPF at very least, but also for custom home lighting market as well.



werrrd^^^^

I think I might replace the neutral (4c) XML in my bikes helmet light with a triple 219 module.
Ive already got a dual 90+CRI XPG for flood but wouldnt mind a higher CRI in my spot too.

not sure a triple 219 [email protected] can keep up with an [email protected] in a smooth reflector.

until there is a hiCRI XML AND in a decent tint the triple 219 is going to be the closest thing probably..
or the multi die EZwhite of course which has that 6-12v VF problem for me.

POPCORN indeed.


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## Got Lumens? (Apr 27, 2012)

psychbeat said:


> werrrd^^^^
> 
> I think I might replace the neutral (4c) XML in my bikes helmet light with a triple 219 module.
> Ive already got a dual 90+CRI XPG for flood but wouldnt mind a higher CRI in my spot too.
> ...


I know what you mean. There would be nothing worse than having to strap a large 12V gelpack to your belt .
GL


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## jjziets (Apr 28, 2012)

Is high CRI lights better for sport like cycling? i found Magicshine MJ880 4000K bicycling light on ebay. It seems like everyone is using the very high efficiency LEDs but with low CRI +6000K LED.


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## psychbeat (Apr 28, 2012)

jjziets said:


> Is high CRI lights better for sport like cycling? i found Magicshine MJ880 4000K bicycling light on ebay. It seems like everyone is using the very high efficiency LEDs but with low CRI +6000K LED.



I prefer neutral and HiCRI for night riding and all outdoor activities. 

It helps to see mud, roots & rocks. 
The cool tints tend to wash these things out.


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## psychbeat (Apr 28, 2012)

jjziets said:


> Is high CRI lights better for sport like cycling? i found Magicshine MJ880 4000K bicycling light on ebay. It seems like everyone is using the very high efficiency LEDs but with low CRI +6000K LED.



I prefer neutral and HiCRI for night riding and all outdoor activities. 

It helps to see mud, roots & rocks. 
The cool tints tend to wash these things out.


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## Got Lumens? (Apr 28, 2012)

I did some poking around, and Cree's XM-L binning and labeling document version #5(03/30/2012), 
Now lists 80, 85, and 90 High CRI ordering codes and fluxes 

Of Course that does not mean that any light manufacturers have ordered and are using them :shrug:


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## morelightnow (Aug 27, 2012)

Yes, it does exist. Nailbender is making P60 dropins with these in the custom B/S/T section. I have not seen them for sale separately yet. I hope Illumination Supply can get a reel soon.


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## Anders Hoveland (Sep 1, 2012)

I too would like to see white LED's with good color rendering ability (I do not believe CRI is a good indicator of actual color rendering ability), which still have overall high efficiencies.

I would like to see some spectral graphs of these new high-CRI white LED's, to see how "full spectrum" they actually are. 

White LED's have the potential to be even better than halogen in the quality of their light, but unfortunately that is just not the case right now. Typical white LED's do not have any bluish-purple frequency light, are very deficient in deep red frequency light, and also have a small deficiency in the blue-green (indigo/cyan) part of the spectrum. For some reason, it is just difficult for me to read under current LED lights. I like the cool white LED's (although they seem a little harsh for relaxing unde), but the warm white LED's seem to have an eery off-color yellow tint to me, that I just do not like. It is not the same as a incandescent/halogen.

I have heard good reviews about the Nikken KenkoLight Full Spectrum LED Desk Lamp, but have personally never tried it. The power would probably be too low for me anyway.

And I just *hate* all flourescent lights, even the "full spectrum" ones. I just want to smash all those awful CFL's everywhere I go, but don't because it would just release more poisonous mercury into the environment. Apparently I am one of those rare people with some skin sensitivity to fluorescent lights (because of the mercury vapor inside, they give off a higher proportion of violet light and leaked UV). So for me, all LED's are far better than any fluorescent lamp.


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## sqchram (Sep 3, 2012)

Anders Hoveland said:


> I too would like to see white LED's with good color rendering ability (I do not believe CRI is a good indicator of actual color rendering ability), which still have overall high efficiencies.



Maybe I'm missing something but CRI stands for color rendering index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index

Ahh - you must mean this: "Ohno (2006) and others have criticized CRI for not always correlating well with subjective color rendering quality in practice, particularly for light sources with spiky emission spectra such as fluorescent lamps or white LEDs."


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## Anders Hoveland (Sep 4, 2012)

Yes, the actual phenomena of color rendering is a little too complex to be conveniently indexed by a simple rating. Different light sources can have good color rendering in _different ways_. And obviously some light sources will give better color contrast in certain situations than others, regardless of CRI.

My personal opinion is that good color contrast tends to be a mix of filling in gaps in the spectrum, and proper color balance (red, green, blue/violet). If there are gaps, it is better to have them spread out across the spectrum than concentrated toward one part of it.


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## morelightnow (Sep 7, 2012)

> And I just *hate* all flourescent lights, even the "full spectrum" ones. I just want to smash all those awful CFL's everywhere I go, but don't because it would just release more poisonous mercury into the environment. Apparently I am one of those rare people with some skin sensitivity to fluorescent lights (because of the mercury vapor inside, they give off a higher proportion of violet light and leaked UV). So for me, all LED's are far better than any fluorescent lamp.



So, you must love the movie Joe vs the Volcano. I think of that part with the lights frequently at work. We have what looks like the very first flourescent lamp fixtures, and everyday a new one is flickering or dying.

I agree CRI alone does not make a good light source. I'm just happy that leds are going in the right direction. Will they ever be perfect? Nobody knows, but I try not to worry too much about it. I tell myself to just go enjoy the lights I have.


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## Anders Hoveland (Sep 8, 2012)

morelightnow said:


> I agree CRI alone does not make a good light source. I'm just happy that leds are going in the right direction. Will they ever be perfect? Nobody knows, but I try not to worry too much about it. I tell myself to just go enjoy the lights I have.


I just resent the fact the certain governments are taking away consumer choice.

The sulfur lamp has a really good spectrum, and may actually be less expensive than LED when scaled up. The best application would be in large buildings, with the sulfur lamp housed outside, and a network of light pipes to bring the light into the building. It would require special architectural design, probably one of the main reason sulfur lamps are not more popular. This is probably the same reason natural (sun) lighting is not more popular. Architects usually do not put much thought into the lighting of the building even though this is one of the most important things. Far simpler to just stick fluorescent lights in. 

But for commercial buildings and schools, I think perhaps the government *should* take away choice and force them to use LED's or more natural lighting. Since it is not the people making the choices that are actually using the building.


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## yellow (Sep 8, 2012)

please (once again) someone explain that "High CRI" to me?

I am sitting here with 2 P60 XM-L inserts, one High CRI (and 3.200 K) and another one in my preferred 5.000 K ...
Granted, the High CRI give colors more sunlight-like, than the "low CRI" one. But with the 5.000 K neutral one, all colors also do appear ...
And that incan like beam from the high CRI is visibly (and technically) less bright.
In short: I dont prefer it to the neutral and am wondering what kind of use is "necessary" to "need" it?
You all are professional product photographers?

... seems it is a totally individual thing ... 
:thinking:


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## SemiMan (Sep 9, 2012)

Anders Hoveland said:


> I just resent the fact the certain governments are taking away consumer choice.
> 
> The sulfur lamp has a really good spectrum, and may actually be less expensive than LED when scaled up. The best application would be in large buildings, with the sulfur lamp housed outside, and a network of light pipes to bring the light into the building. It would require special architectural design, probably one of the main reason sulfur lamps are not more popular. This is probably the same reason natural (sun) lighting is not more popular. Architects usually do not put much thought into the lighting of the building even though this is one of the most important things. Far simpler to just stick fluorescent lights in.
> 
> But for commercial buildings and schools, I think perhaps the government *should* take away choice and force them to use LED's or more natural lighting. Since it is not the people making the choices that are actually using the building.




I don't think you will here many people refer to it as a sulfur lamps so most will not know what this is. It is generally referred to as a plasma lamp. 

Putting one outside the building and using light pipes would incur significant losses in light transmission that would probably eliminate any benefit. The best plasma on the market right now, Luxim, is perhaps 100-120 lumens/watt and that is at the "bulb". Their published fixture efficiencies are 80-90 lumens/watt. They announced higher quite a while ago, but nothing commercially has come about. 

With the low cost, long life, and high efficiency of linear fluorescent, it would be hard to justify light piping though perhaps mixing this with a parabolic tracked light harvester may be of interest.


Plasma looks like it may be on the same track as induction fluorescent. A technology whose time came and went quickly as it was steamrolled by LED as LED gets better and better. With the quick advancements in LED and strong theoretical performance roadmap, it is difficult to justify investments in plasma lighting as it does not appear that that corresponding road map exists. 

Currently luxim seems to go up to about 50,000 lumens at 500 watts. Equivalent efficiency I am talking perhaps 70 XML, but that is today, and I would not be surprised to see that drop to 50 next year with a new die revision. That said, the market for 50,000 lumen lamps is comparatively limited. Hence right now this is a niche product. They are getting sales, but it has to be tough for them and getting tougher as LEDs improve.

Semiman


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## blasterman (Sep 10, 2012)

Plasma / Sulfur has a lot of the same functional and application limits as daylight halide. Basically you have a lot of energy coming from a very small source, and a lamp that has to be placed some distance from the work source because of all that energy and heat being generated and consumed. Plasma / sulfur is simply not practical in terms of general commercial lighting which is increasingly being distributed given that Plasma doesn't scale down too well. T5 / T8 does a better job with distributed lighting and LED even better so.

Otherwise, I'm actually surprised we don't see more Plasma because not all solutions are best fixed with fluorescent. Grocery stores in particular benefit from as 'sunlight' looking source as possible and ones in my area currently use mixed HID - a perfect solution for Plasma. Horticulture has also started embracing Plasma because it's inherently full spectrum while halide and fluorescent sources being marketed more than fact. Architecturally unique applications like airports or malls that want to keep an environment that looks as much like daylight as possible. Lots of places where a super high CRI point light source at ~500 watts works great . Lots of applicatiosn where it doesn't work either.


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## SemiMan (Sep 10, 2012)

blasterman said:


> Plasma / Sulfur has a lot of the same functional and application limits as daylight halide. Basically you have a lot of energy coming from a very small source, and a lamp that has to be placed some distance from the work source because of all that energy and heat being generated and consumed. Plasma / sulfur is simply not practical in terms of general commercial lighting which is increasingly being distributed given that Plasma doesn't scale down too well. T5 / T8 does a better job with distributed lighting and LED even better so.
> 
> Otherwise, I'm actually surprised we don't see more Plasma because not all solutions are best fixed with fluorescent. Grocery stores in particular benefit from as 'sunlight' looking source as possible and ones in my area currently use mixed HID - a perfect solution for Plasma. Horticulture has also started embracing Plasma because it's inherently full spectrum while halide and fluorescent sources being marketed more than fact. Architecturally unique applications like airports or malls that want to keep an environment that looks as much like daylight as possible. Lots of places where a super high CRI point light source at ~500 watts works great . Lots of applicatiosn where it doesn't work either.




I am not sure the reasons, but the high CRI versions of the plasma lights seem to have inherently less life. Still tolerable (30K+ hours), but not as good as the lower CRI versions.

That is one of the disadvantages and/or advantages of LED. You can tune the color for what you want and the applications.


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## Illum (Sep 10, 2012)

mvyrmnd said:


> Yes, they do, but it's not your standard XM-L. It's actually multi-die.
> 
> The XM-L Easy White has a minimum 90-CRI version
> 
> http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp_xml_ezw.asp



Yep... Csshih almost bought some to stock up illuminationsupply.com with but there was too little interest. This is mainly because the Easy White has a forward voltage of about 12V


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## kaichu dento (Sep 12, 2012)

Anders Hoveland said:


> I just resent the fact the certain governments are taking away consumer choice.
> 
> But for commercial buildings and schools, I think perhaps the government *should* take away choice and force them to use LED's or more natural lighting. Since it is not the people making the choices that are actually using the building.


I completely agree with your first statement and firmly disagree with the last.

However, government meddling is not part of the topic and as such should not be discussed here.


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## Led_Blind (Sep 12, 2012)

yellow said:


> please (once again) someone explain that "High CRI" to me?
> 
> I am sitting here with 2 P60 XM-L inserts, one High CRI (and 3.200 K) and another one in my preferred 5.000 K ...
> Granted, the High CRI give colors more sunlight-like, than the "low CRI" one. But with the 5.000 K neutral one, all colors also do appear ...
> ...



CRI means is colour rendering index, that how many colours can be perceived. This does not mean how many colours can be rendered accuratly. 

I find that most current generation Hi CRI 3000-3500 leds are far too warm, though they put out more colours the skew of the spectrum emmited is toward the red end. There are some with a 4500 or 5000k output that seem to be the most sought after, but are not made by the Cree's of the world.


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## WeLight (Sep 13, 2012)

Illum said:


> Yep... Csshih almost bought some to stock up illuminationsupply.com with but there was too little interest. This is mainly because the Easy White has a forward voltage of about 12V



not quite correct, comes in 6V, 12V


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## Anders Hoveland (Sep 21, 2012)

Here are the spectrums for the very latest technology of high CRI LED's







They are already being is used for spotlights in some TV studios, but right now are very very expensive (4700 US dollars).
http://www.mole.com/moleled/pages/12pack/12pack.html


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## Sniperboy (Oct 8, 2012)

Sorry for the gravedigging and asking what could very well be an elementary question...

I have read some posts that use "HI CRI" to describe TINT and associate it with "warm tint". Is this accurate? 
I ask because I have a McGizmo running a Nichia 119 "HI CRI" and the only way I can describe it is that it is between warm and neutral tint but more on the neutral side (and quite pleasant).

Lets say hypothetically for this discussion, I regard "warm" as an incandescent bulb running at say 3500k and if a neutral light is say at 4500K (OK my numbers may be all wrong but I use it only as an imaginary gauge), the Nichia 119 HI CRI I saw would rank at 4300K. Definitely not in between but more neutral.

From my headsplitting reading on the issue it seems that HI CRI is independent of tint and is not a measure of tint.
*In other words, is it correct to say that HI CRI lights need not be "warm" and not all warm lights are "HI CRI"?*


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## RoGuE_StreaK (Oct 10, 2012)

Sniperboy said:


> *In other words, is it correct to say that HI CRI lights need not be "warm" and not all warm lights are "HI CRI"?*


Yep, it's just that at the moment the high CRI ones _tend to be_ warm. Possibly something inherent in the current implementation.

Warm does not automatically mean high CRI, and cool does not necessarily mean low CRI. After all, CRI is based on a relative comparison to "daylight", and daylight is classified perhaps somewhere between "cool" and "warm", tending more towards cool.


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## Sniperboy (Oct 10, 2012)

Thank you very much for the reply.. it lays my question to rest.. it was really racking my brain for a while. : )


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## ICUDoc (Oct 11, 2012)

RoGuE_StreaK said:


> Yep, it's just that at the moment the high CRI ones _tend to be_ warm. Possibly something inherent in the current implementation.
> 
> Warm does not automatically mean high CRI, and cool does not necessarily mean low CRI. After all, CRI is based on a relative comparison to "daylight", and daylight is classified perhaps somewhere between "cool" and "warm", tending more towards cool.


One nice exception to the rule you sensibly described, RoGuE StreaK, is the Nichia 219 which is high-CRI but can be had in a nice 4000-4500K colour....I haven't seen any others that high in CRI


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## whateatsrabbits (Dec 21, 2012)

Has anyone seen a hi cri xm-l2 yet? if so pm me I want one in my mac edc.


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## jasonck08 (Dec 22, 2012)

whateatsrabbits said:


> Has anyone seen a hi cri xm-l2 yet? if so pm me I want one in my mac edc.



Don't think they are out yet, but according to cree, there will be a 90 CRI XM-L2.


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