# 285 Lumen Mag 2C



## lemlux (Oct 10, 2002)

I have posted how I bored out an 11/16 hole in a section of 1" dowell to place 3 @ CR123's into a Mag 2c to overdrive a Carley 6.0 V 1.7 A Krypton Star at somewhere between 180 design voltage Lumens and 220 Lumen.

I tonight discovered that if I remove the spring and scratch off the anodizing on the bottom of the endcap that I can fit 4 @ CR123's into a Mag 2C with a little tin foil wad on the bottom.

This is the battery perfect battery combination for my special-ordered ceramic PR base-potted #808 Carley 9.6 V 1.2 A 285 Lumen 20-hour life T-2 1/2 Xenon bulb that cost me $8.64. I figure the bulb has somewhere between 9.4V and 9.6 V delivered to it. This light draws between 11 and 11.5 volts which is as hard as I want to drive Mag's 320 degree F Polycarbonate reflector.

I think I am somewhere between design voltage and 97% of design voltage with a close to 280 L light that will run for about an hour. This is a brighter, cheaper poor man's M4 in a very attractive and comfortable package.

I'm able to put my DB lights with lots of CR123's away as very bright emergency lights. This light feels so nice that I'm afraid I'll burn up lots of batteries in it. This is really fun!


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## lemlux (Oct 10, 2002)

FWIW, 4 '@ CR123's require 4 * 34 mm or 136 mm.

This means the Mag 2C can also be driven by 3 @ 43 mm long 4/5 A cells totaling 129 mm with a spring or a thicker aluminum foil wad.

I have enough 2000 mAh 4/5 A cells from some surplus battery packs to drive 8 @ 2C flashlights. Three 4/5 A NiMH cells could also drive my 3.7 V Carley ceramic-potted PR base 3.7 V 1.6 A 5.9 V 146 Lumen #805 Xenon for over an hour.

If you haven't held a Mag 2C do so. It is very seductive.


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## Monsters_Inc (Oct 10, 2002)

You could also try to pass it off as a standard Mag 2C in a 'who's got a bigger light' competition you know all guys engage in at sometime or other.


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## lemlux (Oct 11, 2002)

Onyx:

I'm not a LEO, but I think your Crocidile Dundee "That's not a knife" suggestion might resonate with Mr. Bulk. He has been on a quest to build the ultimate 2D Maglight driven by up to 8 alkalines. He won't use rechargeables but he's willing to play with lithiums. I can imagine him sandbagging by limping into the squad room with his "li'l ole 2C."

The problem is that by now everyone will know Charlie's sandbagging.


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## MR Bulk (Oct 11, 2002)

Clark, I think I'm gonna just go with 5 or 6 AAs in the 2D, and pump'em through a 5W white Luxeon when I get one. This 8AA/2D business is killing me trying to find the right fit...unless I invest in a lathe...


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## Wits' End (Oct 11, 2002)

Lemlux said--I have posted how I bored out an 11/16 hole in a section of 1" dowell to place 3 @ CR123's into a Mag 2c to overdrive a Carley 6.0 V 1.7 A Krypton Star at somewhere between 180 design voltage Lumens and 220 Lumen.
---
I couldn't find this do you have a link to the thread?


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## lemlux (Oct 11, 2002)

witsend:

I can't find the thread, but there isn't much more to report. Since 3 @ 34 mm long CR123's are essentially the same length as 2 @ 50.5 mm long C or A or AA cells the only trick is to allign the batteries so they have good contact and don't rattle.

I've found that even the dowell pieces that split when I drill them are good enough for this purpose as long as I have 240 degrees of circumference or so.


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## revolvergeek (Oct 11, 2002)

VERY interesting... So I could cheaply hotrod my Maglite 2C with a Maglite 6-Cell bulb and 3 123s? Anybody have any idea what runtime would be like on that?


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## lemlux (Oct 11, 2002)

I would guess that the stock Maglite 6 cell bulb draws in the neighborhood of 0.85 Amp. 123's are 1.2 to 1.4 AH. I would guess you'd get between 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 hours. The 1.0 A bulb for the E2 is rated at 1 1/4 hours run time.


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## Mr. Blue (Oct 11, 2002)

What is the runtime on the 285 lu. baby?


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## lemlux (Oct 11, 2002)

The 285 Lumen 9.6V light is 1.2 A. It should run brightly for a little under an hour. 

By comparison:

The Legend LX bulb and MN 20 are each also 1.20A
The P90 is 1.15 A
The Scorpion and P60 bulbs are each 1.10 A
The E2 is 1.00 A

The P61 is 2.30 A
The P91 is 2.35 A

The P91 and P61 are each rated at 20 minutes run

The 1.7 A Krypton Star should be good for 35 to 40 minutes on 3 123's.


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## revolvergeek (Oct 11, 2002)

Thanks for the info. I think that I am going to go stop by the police supply on my lunch this afternoon. I knew that there was a reason that I was keeping that little 2C cell around. 

Guess that I am goning to have to get in on the next Carely group buy now.


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## Mr. Blue (Oct 11, 2002)

ok...how is the beam quality? would write wright melt?


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## lemlux (Oct 11, 2002)

Beam Quality is standard mag. That topic has been beaten to death.

Writewrite seems OK on the Mag and DB plastic lenses I've used with bulbs of this wattage. Although I bought a few of Mag Charger tempered soda glass lenses for my Mags from BriteGuy, I haven't really needed tham. 

I did notice once on a Mag that a little air bubble under the film heated up and caused the WW to baloon out until I repositioned the writeright.


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## kz1000s1 (Oct 24, 2002)

This is indeed interesting enough that I went and got a 2C to mod. For a battery tube I used 1/2" PVC pipe with a strip of duct tape around each end for a snug fit in the light. The bulb is a Radio Shack 6 cell krypton. Next I will try to overdrive a 5 cell bulb. 

It works very well, quite bright, and beam is much smoother than my d-cell mags.


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## lemlux (Oct 24, 2002)

[No message]


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## lemlux (Oct 24, 2002)

kz100s1

I have no idea why your 2 C beam is smoother than your 6 D beam with the same bulb. The C and D mags use the same reflector.

To put brightness in perspective, The R/S KPR118 7.2 V 0.6 A bulb is rated at 66 Lumen. My guess is that the relatively light 0.6 A draw on the CR123's means that you're probably slightly overdriving it already at somewhere between 7.5 V and 7.9 volts. That overdriving means you're probably getting around 85 Lumens or so. 

I knew that Sub C cells that are wider than 3/4" fit snugly into 3/4" PVC pipe. Sub C = 23 mm diameter and 3/4 " = 19.1 mm. Unfortunately, my 3/4" PVC pipe won't fit into a C body.

I also knew that C cells that are wider that 1" fit loosely into 1" PVC pipe. C = 26 mm diameter and 1" = 25.4 mm. 1" PVC pipe fits into a D body.

It didn't occur to me to check and see if 17 mm wide CR123's would fit into nominal 1/2" pipe that should be only 12.7 mm ID. That sounds a lot easier than my dowell approach.


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## BugLightGeek (Oct 29, 2002)

kz1000s1-
How'd it go overdriving a 5 cell bulb?
I'm interested to know so I know whether or not I need to keep my eye open for a 2C maglite. I already know I need to get a 2D one to do the 2D/3C mod.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 29, 2002)

I passed up a silver 2C at Home Depot today in search of a 3C.....

May just have to go back and get that, and some pipe!


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## kz1000s1 (Oct 29, 2002)

Lemlux-

I don't know either why the 2C is smoother. The reflectors are indeed the same. Perhaps the greater intensity of light fills in the rings somewhat. They are still there, just not as noticeable. 

The pipe I used came from Home Depot and is marked as 1/2" drinking water pvc. Actual dimensions are: I.D.-17mm, O.D.-21mm, my Surefire 123's measure 16.5mm. I cut the pipe to 95mm long, and wrapped a 1" wide strip of duct tape around each end to a diameter of 25mm to support the pipe.

One other problem is that the end of the tailcap spring is too large in diameter to make good contact with a 123 cell. For now I just stuck a small wad of aluminum foil in the end of it. I'll come up better solution later.

ChrisM-
I just put in the KPR112 5 cell bulb tonight. Only used it for about 10 minutes so far and it's still working. Slightly brighter than the 6 cell bulb. It can light up the trees at the end of my street 525 ft. away. I've had good luck overdriving RS krypton bulbs. A Craftsman tool light 4AA with a 3 cell, still going, and a AA minimag with an RS krypton and lithium cells lasted 2 months even after dropping it twice on concrete.


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## BugLightGeek (Oct 30, 2002)

Coooollll....


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 30, 2002)

I think as far as beam smoothness goes there are three possible things at work. A: Quality Control is letting some very nice and very not nice reflectors out. B: Bulbs have widely variable specs. (I mean I have looked at some bulbs that have the filament NOWHERE NEAR the center).
C: When you overwhelm a refector with light (Example Brinkmann LX) it just gets smoother.

It's FUN to stuff more batteries in a light!!!!


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## lemlux (Oct 30, 2002)

KZ100S1:

I used the aluminum foil wad in both the 3 * CR123 and 4 * CR123 setups. I feel no need to change. The batteries are firm in each. 

The main concern is not to put so much foil into an unsprung flashlight that the battery terminal ends get pushed in. A minor secondary concern is they system electical resistance added by the two additional aluminum foil junction contacts.


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## StoneDog (Oct 31, 2002)

Now that you mention it, my standard Mag 3D with Radio Shack's Xenon bulb (the 3-cell version, forgot the #) is noticeably smoother than the crappy bulb it came with. The bulb itself has a more truncated shape vs the std bulbs slightly tear-drop shape. 

I think bulb quality/shape has a lot to do with it.

Jon


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## BeamChucker (Oct 31, 2002)

Lemlux,

How did you get your ceramic PR base-potted #808 Carley 9.6 V 1.2 A 285 Lumen 20-hour life T-2 1/2 Xenon bulb? Was it a group buy or can anyone get one from Carley? Is there a next best thing?

StreamChucker


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## lemlux (Oct 31, 2002)

StreamChucker:

I purchased a lot of bulbs and reflectors from Carley that became a partial group buy with a small number of bulbs for Ake and Klaus.

Carley currently has no minimum order requirement on direct purchases. They do have a 5-bulb minimum requirement for potting.

I think it would be a good risk to buy the # 808 T-2 1/2 bipin bulb along with a #912 bipin to PR base adapter. This adapter is not ceramically potted (it is plastic filled) and is only rated to 1.0 Amp. Patty Taylor at Carley advises, however, that many customers report that they have run 1.1 A and 1.2 A Carley bulbs in this # 912 adapter without problem. This adapter has a $3.35 single unit price.

The problem, were it to occur, is that the plastic would soften and deform from the heat running through the pins, not the heat of the filament in the glass envelope.

I potted other bulbs that were in the 1.6 A and 1.7 A range so I had the #808 potted.

A less aggressive and commercially available 9.6 V option would be to buy some Makita 9.6 V PR base bulbs. I think they are either Krypton or Xenon and are about 0.60 A. You could probably get these at a tool store or at Home Depot.


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## BeamChucker (Oct 31, 2002)

Thanks Lemlux,that's very helpful. I was wondering if the #912 adaptor would work. 

Would you use the 3 or 4 cell mod for the Makita bulb?

StreamChucker


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## BeamChucker (Oct 31, 2002)

Also,what would be best choice of lamp for the 2D to 3C mod? Thanks.

StreamChucker


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## lemlux (Nov 2, 2002)

Streamchucker:

The Makita 9.6 V bulb appears to be 0.60 A based on the 2 hour run time on 1.2 Ah or 1.3 Ah battery packs. I'd use 4 @ CR123's and expect to overdrive at about 10.2 to 10.4 V. This should shorten bulb life by around 50% and increase brightness by around 20% to 25%.

Are you going to run alkalines or NiMH's with 3C's, regardless of what light you put them in? I'd use the Xenon star for 3 Alkalines for alkalines. Your best run-time / brightness bet for NiMH's is probably the #805 3.7V 1.6 A Xenon T-2 1/4 bulb potted into a PR base. If you use the #912 base, You probably should use the 3.7 V 1.2 A Xenon #804 bulb. This bulb uses 75% of the wattage of the 805 but only delivers 59% of the lumens. I use potted 804's in my 3C applications. I use potted 3.5V 2.30 A Halogen bulbs both with 3 sub C's that have very little voltage drop under load and with 4AA's which experience voltage drop down to the 0.95 V to 1.0 V range at 2.30 Amps which = roughly 1.3 * C.


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## Nerd (Nov 2, 2002)

Lemlux... assuming I have wired up the DB6AA in series like the last time you taught me to, and I insert 8 CR123A cells inside.... what bulb do you recommend me to use?




Such that the reflector won't melt..... I wanna push the limits on wattage.... run time is not an issue, it's mainly used for pin pointing long range stuff.... or for blinding people......


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## lemlux (Nov 3, 2002)

Nerd:

W/A only makes S-based bulbs that fit the DB up to 14 Volts. You only want to run 9 watts max anyhow. So, running a 24V setup wouldn't accomplish anything that is immediately obvious to me.

In parallel, my nicest non-rechargeable DB6AA's use 3 @ CR123's and 1 @ lithium AA in each barrel. I run a W/A 01278 9.0 V 1.10 A 244 Lumen bulb, and figure that it pulls a tiny bit over 9.0 V. The 0.55 A per cell allows for > 2 hours of run time.

In serial, you can run 5 @ NiMH AA's with a dummy and a W/A 4.8V 1.95 A 204 Lumen #01319 bulb. This should run at about 5.0 volts (1.0 V per cell)and 234 Lumen. 1800 mAH NiMH's should run this for 45 minutes, although I wouldn't run it for too long for heat reasons.


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## Nerd (Nov 3, 2002)

Ah... time to find a new torch with a alu reflector..... and do some really crazy mods.... it's just not enuff lights some times... be it for fun or for work....



... of cos it's always not enuff cash......


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## moraino (Nov 3, 2002)

Lemlux & Nerd,

I saw the lamp module sale for $13 at Tigerlight website. That make me think if that would fit in the Mag C or D haed.

I can alway stuff in 6 AA or 6 A in the tube and modify the switch if the module will fit the Mag head.

And even if that works out, I wonder how does it compare to the 5W LS mod in terms of brightness and throw...

Henry


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## X-CalBR8 (Dec 29, 2002)

I’m very curious about this mod and am seriously considering doing it, but I was wondering if there is not a cheaper and more easily obtainable bulb to use than the Carley #808. $8.64 is a lot to pay per bulb and the fact that you have to order a minimum of 5 bulbs in order to get them potted is more than a bit extravagant. With shipping, that would come to same as $50.00 just for the bulbs to do this mod. That is the reason that I’m posting is to ask around because there must be an equivalent bulb made by some other manufacturer that is less costly and more easily obtained. So what do you guys think? Is the Carley bulb pretty much all there is to get this level of light out of this mod? What about Radio Shack? Has anyone checked there yet? Thanks in advance for any info or ideas. This mod sounds very exciting.


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## Nerd (Dec 30, 2002)

Not many places stock up high power bulbs.

Tigerlight lamp module ought to be much brighter than any 5 watt LS mod and throw much furthur because it's much higher in wattage...


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## kalengkong (Dec 30, 2002)

anyone knows how to get those Carley bulb in australia?

Carley's web page?






Oh.. i live in a far away continent. 
Thanks for any info.


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## Ross (Dec 30, 2002)

What about any help for us in the UK? I can source a magcharger bulb fairly cheaply and I was wondering how this would work with the set-up described above? Can anyone help?


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## Illuminated (Dec 30, 2002)

Kalenkong & Bowser,

Try this Link:

www.carleylamps.com

or call

[EDITED#] - Telephone: 001(310)325-8474 (Torrance, CA, USA)

Talk to: Patricia Taylor (She's very helpful)

Good luck!

John


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 11, 2003)

In regard to the questions of why the reflector on the Mag 2C seems to be better than the reflector on the 2D, I found something interesting to add to the conversation. I ran across this as part of a Mag sales pitch when I was searching the net to try to find the cheapest place to buy a Mag 2C. Here is the paragraph that I’m referring to:

“Unlike other companies, Mag takes the extra step to plate their contacts with the finest metals to enhance conductivity, reduce oxidation, and increase durability. Every reflector is computer designed to work with a specific lamp and power supply to achieve maximum brilliance and efficiency.”

According to this sales pitch, it appears to be saying that there should be a difference between a C and a D Mag reflector. Perhaps the angle is so subtly different that the eye does not notice it but it is still enough to change the beam quality. What do you guys think?


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## Nerd (Feb 11, 2003)

The strange part is that they sell the same reflector for the C M*gs and the D M*gs at my area.


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## BeamChucker (Feb 12, 2003)

The replacement part number for the reflector is the same for both the C and the D.

StreamChucker


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 12, 2003)

Strange. Enough evidence there to make you think that their sales propaganda is nothing more than a line of BS, huh? Either that or they think there are so few C Mags out there that they would never notice if they were sold a D Mag reflector instead. Saves businesses from having to stock 2 different reflectors for both C & D. Either Mag is lying about the reflectors being specially designed around the power supply and bulb or they are forcing people with C Mags to buy a D Mag reflector. Any way you look at it though, the customer is getting shafted. Perhaps there is more reason to dislike Mag here than simply their shifty legal practices.


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## lemlux (Feb 12, 2003)

My take is that Mag's C and D bulbs are designed for alkaline batteries. The common reflector is easily capable of handling commonly available 0.8 Amp 6 alkaline cell XPR, HPR, and KPR wattages. I am not at all bothered by the interchangeability of lens covers, lenses, reflectors, and threaded PR retainer rings. In fact, I much prefer that commonality than I do the incompatibility of those Nordic 2C, 3C, and 3D parts which are standardized at Mag.

The aluminum reflectored Mag Charger is designed for rechargeables capable of handling 1.6 Amps and will easily go beyond that current.

I find nothing deceptive in Mag's comments. When I asked us how far I could push the wattage on a Mag C or D light they said that the first point of failure would be the plastic reflector on a wide flood. They claimed not to have done distructive testing that would determine the deformation point for the 320 degree F tolerant Polycarbonate reflector. In fact, they invited me to advise them what I determined the failure wattage to be. (CPF'ers seem to be doing OK at up to 11 Wwatts but not at 15 Wwatts.)


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 12, 2003)

Lemlux: Thanks for the info on how much heat these reflectors can handle. I was concerned about this when contemplating doing this mod. Do you happen to know if the aluminum reflector will fit the 2C Mag? It would be nice to have a little extra insurance against meltage when dealing with these borderline wattages. That brings up another related point. Do you happen to know of a better quality 3rd party reflector that is a perfect fit for the Mag? I hear a lot of people complaining that the stock Mag reflector does not throw enough spill light so I thought I would ask if there was something better that I may not have heard of yet. Thanks for any advice.


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## lemlux (Feb 12, 2003)

X-CalBR8:

The Mag Charger reflector is incompatable with the Mag C and D lights.

The Mag C and D heads have a lot of aluminum on the inside that keep most reflectors from fitting.

See this link:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=001077#000000


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## X-CalBR8 (Feb 12, 2003)

Lemlux: Hmm... I was afraid of that. Thanks for getting back to me.


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## BuddTX (May 5, 2003)

Very interesting Thread!

Somehow I missed this one, so I thought I would bump it up!


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## snake (May 5, 2003)

hi hi lemlux

seems that those flashlight maker always joking with us...

if those light you can change the bulb , it come with a plastic reflector.. so too much current you melt your reflector.

for those come with AL reflector.. you can't change your bulb .. it comes with module ...

so only a few light in the market have AL reflector and you can change the bulb.. e.g. Mag charger..


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## PaulW (May 6, 2003)

I'm glad to see that you did bump this thread, BuddTX. I have been studying it closely, along with a number of other related threads. I'm glad to see the subject taken up again because I'm doing the mods suggested and would sure like some company, because although I think I know what I'm doing, I could well be wrong. I certainly welcome all comments and questions.

Today I ordered a batch of Carley 808 bulbs to do the 285 lumen mod with 4 x SF123. I also ordered some 611s and some 612s to experiment with 3 x SF123 mods at around 180 to 200 lumens. BTW, Carley has changed its policy back to requiring a minimum order. It's now $50.

What has spurred me on has been a 3 x SF123 mod (a simple one, my first one) using a KPR-112 bulb from Radio Shack. It gives about 100 lumens, but with a very tight beam, even tighter than a SureFire M3T. So I'm guessing that the 4 x SF123 mod with the Carley 808 will rival the throw of the SF M4 (operating somewhere between the 225 lumen low output lamp and the 350 lumen high output lamp). Of course, it will be poorer in terms of the larger size of the Mag 2C and its sloppier beam with artifacts. Nonetheless such a flashlight for less than $30 is a real bargain.

In about a week I'll know if all this will work. I'll post the results.

Snake: I don't think there's any reason for concern about the reflector melting. On this thread, lemlux tells us (in message #125297) that running this mod, which puts out about 11.5 watts, will not reach the 320 degrees F required to affect the reflector.

There's also more in the Carley Sockets thread and in the Possible New Lamp From Carley thread. Information about Carley is here.


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## paulr (May 6, 2003)

I think there's enough interest for a group buy of the appropriate Carley bulbs, and maybe even some discussion with the machinists here about making some replacement aluminum reflectors for the Mag?


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## BuddTX (May 6, 2003)

I think Carley makes reflectors also.

While I really like the 5 Watt LED's, you can't throw out a almost 300 lumen light for about 50$

If we could standardize on the Light, the bulb, and the reflector, I am in on a group buy.

1. Mag 2c with 4, 123a Lithiums (with a little tin foil on the bottom)
2. PR base-potted #808 Carley 9.6 V 1.2 A 285 Lumen 20-hour life T-2 1/2 Xenon bulb 
3. Optional Aluminum Reflector for the Mag (but not necessary)


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## BuddTX (May 6, 2003)

Question: Is there any better alternative to a bit of Aluminum Foil in the bottom of the Mag?

OR, is there any reason to look for something better? Is the Aluminum an efficient enough conductor?


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## BuddTX (May 6, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*lemlux said:*
If you haven't held a Mag 2C do so. It is very seductive. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Lemlux is right! The 2C is a VERY VERY NICE form factor! My Space Needle and Space Needle 2 are 2C Mags, and they are incredible! 

I know that we have all taken turns putting down Mag, but the 2C is a REALLY NICE physical body for mods!


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## BuddTX (May 6, 2003)

Oh, if someone wants to do a group buy, and wants to collect the money before hand, that is fine with me.

I would not mind at all pre-paying.


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## Ginseng (May 6, 2003)

Paul_W,

I'm keeping an eye on your work /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Needless to say, I'm going to be trying something like this as well. In the mean time, I've got a Mag 4C coming in for some more fun.

Budd,

I'm new here but would not mind conducting the group buy. I've successfully run $20K worth of automotive tuner parts GBs on my car club site. Let's see if we can zero in on a selection of parts. That way we could almost assemble a "kit" for easy construction.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 6, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*BuddTX said:*
Question: Is there any better alternative to a bit of Aluminum Foil in the bottom of the Mag?


[/ QUOTE ]

I have cut off the plastic bottom of the SF123 to expose the outer metal shell of the battery. There should then be no need for foil. Moreover, the cap can be screwed on further. However, the tightness of the cap against the body of the flashlight would be critical because there would be no spring. The danger would be crushing the batteries. I don't have a bulb yet to see if this would be a problem in practice, but I would guess the situation might be somewhat like using a twistie cap on an Arc LS.

A group buy is a good idea, if you can get enough people. Unfortunately I won't be participating because I already have the right amount of bulbs. On another thread Ginseng stated a passing interest in Carley 808s. You may want to send him a PM directing him to this thread. Also, I think that if you start a new thread for a group buy you would find additional interest (but you've probably already thought of this). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## PaulW (May 6, 2003)

Whoops, I see that Wilkey (Ginseng) has already weighed in. I guess we don't need to PM him.

Wilkey, I'm delighted to see you're here and getting a little more adventurous. This is fun stuff!

I like the idea of a kit. Maybe it would include a flat A-shaped spring thingey to place against the cap?

What in the world do you plan to do with a Mag 4C? Don't tell me you're going to cram six or seven 123s in there!


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## paulr (May 6, 2003)

You know I wonder whether this mod can work with the Brinkmann Nexstar 2C light, the one Mr. Bulk uses for the Nexneedle. It's a lot smaller than a Mag 2C. The Mag is reasonably portable but compared with most 2C lights it's enormous.


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## lemlux (May 6, 2003)

paulr:

The Nexstar can only handle [email protected] CR123's. The tailcap is not hollow like that of the Mag 2C.


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## Ginseng (May 6, 2003)

paulr,

The Nexstar is definitely smaller than the Mag 2C, but the feel and balance of the Mag 2C are something special I think. It grips nicely, is a good length and looks well proportioned. But then again, I'm partial to the Mag 2C and D form factors. I'd say the 2C is almost elegant while the 2D is stout and no-nonsense. 

Paul_W,

I'm going to try a KPR144 14V bulb and probably a KPR180 18V in the 4C @ 6xCR123s. If that idea bombs, I can always run it with a 5W LS and BB750 + 30mm optic. I might even pick up a 3C so I can run the Carley 808 with 4xCR123 and a spacer (or 717 Xenon Star). Alternatively, the Carley 716 Xenon Star lamp might work well in the 2C.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 6, 2003)

Ginseng. Wow. You have a lot on your plate. Please do keep us informed of your progress.

Paul


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## Illuminated (May 6, 2003)

I experienced some bubbling of the reflector surface near the lamp on a Mag reflector with the Carley #805 (I think?) 3.7V/1.6 A potted lamp while doing a run time test on a 2D with 3 x 1/2D NiCads and Borofloat lens. It was fine at first, but I laid it down for a few minutes while carrying it around the house, and then the damage was done.

That's nowhere near the 11+ watts Lemlux and others have pushed this reflector with, so I guess the the thing is fine for intermittent use - but perhaps not for extended running.

It definitely can't take the heat from pushing the 6V #1057 at 7.2V at about 15-16 watts for more than just a couple of minutes...

John


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (May 6, 2003)

What do y'all figure the voltage drop on 4 CR123s driving a 6 cell Mag bulb? I can tell you it's BRIGHT! But I keep expecting it to flash....

Incidently this is in a 2D Mag.


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## flashlightlens (May 8, 2003)

Here are a few pictures of my version of the 2C to 3x123 mod:

This first picture shows a disc that I turned down inserted into the stock 2C tailcap. A press fit ensures reliable operation. I cut the disc to accept a highjacked Kroll spring.







The second image shows the battery adapter tube - PVC with latex rings. The latex provides a nice quiet and shock resistant (not that shock resistance is really needed) installation.


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## Illuminated (May 8, 2003)

Nice Job Chris!

Can the slug be made smaller to fit into the bottom of the tail cap for an extra 123? Or is there just not enough room depthwise for a spring and 4 x 123's?

I have not explored this mod yet as I have others in progress /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif but this 2C to 3 or 4 x 123 thing looks awfully tempting...

John


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## flashlightlens (May 8, 2003)

I have a plan for the 4x123 mod. I need to get some smaller springs and then see just how much I can shave off the back end of the tailcap. I think there's enough metal so I can have room for the batteries (allowing the tailcap to screw all the way on without having to removing the shrink from the cell) and to incorporate a spring so there's no concern about reliability.


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## lemlux (May 8, 2003)

I find it helpful to use a naked dissassembled 223 battery as the 4th and last battery in the 2C mod. (Actually, I cover the outside in thin packing tape.) The naked bottom makes cathode / tailcap contact very easy. It makes the compressed foil approach reasonably reliable.

For Mag D battery mods, the original Mag C spring fits nicely in the Mag D tail.

The rubber hose battery holder makes it easy for a lazy person to use dissassembled 223's. The lazy person must still figure out how to store naked dissassembled 223's without shorting them.


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## PaulW (May 9, 2003)

My biggest concern at the moment is how to fit 4 cells comfortably in the Mag 2C.

---------------------------------------------

lemlux

I'm using a peeled 123 battery for the 4th battery in the 2C mod. I just slice the wrapping off the bottom to expose the metal end. I don't know how well it will work because I will not receive the 808s from Carley until early next week. It appears, however, from what you say that using the compressed foil is better than going bare battery-to-tailcap. I will also try a small wad of large-texture steel wool.

I'm glad you're back on this thread with us. We have learned a lot from your posts and those of others from last year on this subject. I hope you'll continue to share what you have learned.

--------------------------------------------

flashlightlens.com

I notice that you seem to want to avoid removing the shrink from the battery. Is that because the resulting electrical connection is not reliable, or because you don't want to have to be slicing the bottom of every fourth cell?

BTW, I ordered some UCLs for the first time. It seems that such a lens is a good fit for this mod.


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## flashlightlens (May 9, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*Paul_W said:*
I notice that you seem to want to avoid removing the shrink from the battery. Is that because the resulting electrical connection is not reliable, or because you don't want to have to be slicing the bottom of every fourth cell?


[/ QUOTE ]

Paul,
I want it to be a mod that will be easy to operate for the person who owns the light. Also, the whole idea of not having spring tension on the batteries seems like a recipe for problems. If your tailcap loosens up just a bit, you could lose connectivity. When you initially compress the Al foil installation it will probably work great - however, if you drop the light, it may cause further compression, resulting in an intermittent connection. Maybe you'll have to retighten the tailcap every so often. Having a battery with no shrink seems "iffy" also - mainly because there's even less material to actually compress to make the connection - all the pressure when you tighten that tailcap is directly on the ends of the batteries. This is actually true with the foil also - regardless of having shrink or not. The metal on the batteries has no real "give" and will therefore bend. Once again, this adds up to an unreliable conneciton for me.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts - I figure I've got the lathe and I can get the springs, so why not? And besides, isn't it fun to take a REALLY easy mod and just make it as complicated and expensive as possible...??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Plus, I really like a challenge. I think I need some therapy....???


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## PaulW (May 9, 2003)

What you say makes a great deal of sense and causes me also to think about how to extend the length of the 2C battery compartment. Even now I can feel the thoughts about getting a lathe creeping around in my head . . . just a little lathe . . . I have used one in the past . . . and this is only aluminum . . . .

And there I go. Yup, I think a lot of us would benefit from just a tad of gentle help from a kindly man with a couch. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## MR Bulk (May 9, 2003)

When I get home I am going to try a very flat LEAF spring in the cap bottom w/four 123s (just a shallow inverted V-shape)...of course I won't have any kind of BULB with which to test the resultant 12V source, but at least I can get the spacing down...


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## X-CalBR8 (May 10, 2003)

Hi guys. I did this mod a couple of months ago and learned some neat tricks for dealing with the various problems that you will likely encounter when doing this great mod so I thought I would take the time to share what I innovated that I've not seen mentioned anywhere yet.

One of problems that you will encounter is the contact problem in the tail cap. There are a couple of ways to tackle that one that I've found. The easiest way is to use sand paper, or better yet, a Dremel Tool to grind off the anodizing on the bottom of the end cap where the negative post of the battery touches. At this point you can either use aluminum foil (as has already been mentioned) to make contact between the battery and the end cap or you can braze, weld or solder on a washer to the bottom center of the end cap that fits the inside diameter of the battery perfectly so that the negative post of the battery will simply sit on top of it. I've not seen anyone mention this method so I thought I would include it in case anyone wants to give it a try. It is on my to-do list but I've not actually tried it yet. I think it would have some reliability advantages over the aluminum foil method.

The other issue that you will run into with this mod is getting the end cap to make electrical contact with the rest of the body of the flashlight because you will not be able to screw the end cap quite all the way down unless you are fortunate enough to have a lathe or have some other method to grid down the end cap. There will be a very slight gap between the end cap and the rest of the flashlight body when using 4 123s. I've found a few ways of dealing with this issue so far. Here is the easiest way by far to deal with this if you can get lucky enough to find one. There are keyrings like go on keychains that are the exact perfect diameter to use as a spacer between the end cap and the flashlight body. Just check around and you are likely to find one that will work or maybe I just got very lucky. The one that I have fits so perfectly that you would almost think that it was designed for the purpose. The stainless steel keying that I'm using makes it look a lot like a mini Mag Charger which is very cool. Another thing that I tried before that was to use one of those very thick paper clips and I fashioned it into a perfect circle that would fit the gap. That worked very well, functionally, but ascetically it did not look nearly as professional as the keyring trick. One other idea that I had was to take a washer with an outside diameter that is the exact same as the outside diameter of the Mag and use a grinding tool on a Dremel to hollow it out to the point that it would fit over the threads. This method would work, but would be tricky to get just right without using a lathe, which unfortunately I don't have access to. I do have a washer with the perfect outside diameter though so I'm positive that it would be possible to do this.

I’ve also come up with an easy an inexpensive way of making this mod waterproof. All you have to do is find a wide black rubber band that is the right diameter and put it over the gap. Problem solved and it looks rather nice to.

While I'm sure that there are much better ways to do this mod, this is a quick and easy way for a poor fellow, such as myself, to accomplish what would normally require some very expensive machinery to accomplish. Well, this post is getting a bit long so I suppose I will end it here. I hope that these ideas will help others that are embarking on this very remarkable mod. Have fun! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Ginseng (May 10, 2003)

Here's another idea for a tailcap contact which is very similar to MR Bulk's suggestion. Solder a small strip of steel or brass shim stock bent into a "C" or "V" shape. This would be very thin and still allow a slight amount of spring pressure to maintain contact with the battery. The solder spot would keep the spring in place.

I like the keyring idea. I'm going to try and dremel out the inside of the tailcap though. See if I can buy the 1.5 mm without going through the back of the tailcap. 

Wilkey


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## Illuminated (May 10, 2003)

My 2C tailcap is very thin on the bottom-not much more than 1mm...

John


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## flashlightlens (May 10, 2003)

I think it's in the neighborhood of about 1.65mm.


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## Kill-O-Zap (May 11, 2003)

I just happened to have a 2D Mag apart for a mod last night, and noticed that the positive contact to the switch assembly is acutally a small SPRING. I don't know if the C mag also has a spring there. If it does, it is possible that the spring is surrounded by enough plastic to allow only the tip of the C battery to push into the spring; I don't remember exactly, but that appeared to be the case on the D Mag. I also suspect that the tip of the 123 battery does not compress the spring completely before the top of the battery hits bottom against the plastic of the switch housing. SO... assuming I'm right in all these assumptions, maybe if you sand/dremel away one or two millimiters off the the rear part of the switch assembly, you might end up with BOTH the extra couple of millimiters you need for the tailcap to screw in completely, AND spring rather than battery compression, for reliablility. 

Sorry, I don't have a C mag to test this theory out on, but am looking forward to someone confirming or denying this.


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## Pellidon (May 11, 2003)

Just checked, New 2C's have the "traditional" flat contact. They also have the old school spanner nut retainer infront plus the set screw down the switch for ground connection.


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## Illuminated (May 11, 2003)

Pre- "D"-Prefix serial # Mag D's had a larger barrel ID and a different switch assembly that had a flat bottom and flat tab for battery contact.

Newer D-prefix serial # Mag D'd have the switch with recessed spring spring for + battery contact.

The 2C Mag I purchased recently for a mod had a flat-bottomed switch with flat metal tab for +batt, similar to the early Mad D's.

I'm not certain whether there are variations in the C-size Mag switches or not. I recall someone posting about differences in the rubber switch covers, as one was like the D-size cover and a replacement (like my 2-C) had a different one made to fit a different switch and/or barrel machining.

Hope this helps - John

[EDIT] - My 2C purchased less than 6 weeks ago does NOT use the threaded retainer ring - it has circlip and set screw, and is removed from the rear...


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## Kill-O-Zap (May 11, 2003)

Dang. Oh well, it would have been good. Thanks.


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## Illuminated (May 11, 2003)

Seems there are significant variations in the C-size Mag-Lites...

John


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## PaulW (May 15, 2003)

A lot has happened to me since I last posted here about a week ago. Let me start in the middle (just like a movie). I received the Carley Lamps 808 (CL808), but found that with 4 fresh 123s they immediately flash up and are destroyed. I didn’t believe it when it happened. So what did I do? I put another one in. It flashed also. Two $7.81 bulbs gone in less than 5 minutes.

But to explain, let me do a flashback (if you'll forgive the pun), back to Tuesday, two days ago.

I was delighted to find the bulbs I ordered in a well-packed box from Carley. The bulbs are a little different from others. The glass at the end is extra thick, creating a lens at the tip. This was going to be beautiful.

Before doing anything else, I wanted to test the bulbs. I had earlier constructed a breadboard mounted with batteries, meters, cables, and alligator clips. It had allowed me to test the lamp assemblies for all the lights I have. With it I can read the voltage applied to the lamp and current through it at the same time. I wanted this because the internal resistance of batteries is high enough that connecting them directly to lamps results in voltages that drop as current increases.

I first ran the CR808 on one SF123. Then 2; then 3; then 4. It was *really* bright. The meters read 10.40 volts and 1200 mA for four 123s. That’s 12.5 watts. The batteries at this point were not fresh, but almost.

For the next day and a half, I did a lot of playing with it -- enjoying it. In my nighttime wanderings it seemed that the Mag 2C with 808s was about as bright as my SF M3 with turbo head. The beam was different. The Mag 2C gave a narrower beam with an obviously brighter and smaller hot spot.

So today seemed right for taking objective comparison measurements using my light meter. To do proper measurements, I reasoned, I should have fresh batteries and then take about three measurements for each light, swapping out batteries. Nice plan, I thought. But when I turned on the Mag 2C the lights flashed and were dead. End of flashback.

So, I really screwed up. Two expensive bulbs gone. What to do? I decided to eat lunch and try to forget for a while. Came up with an idea. Try out the Carley CL612s that I had also ordered. I had almost forgotten about them. (Lemlux had mentioned them in the first post of this thread.)

To make a long story short -- and if you’ve gotten this far I’ll bet you are glad to hear this -- I tested a CL612 with 3 SF123s on my breadboard. It performed very well. I measured 7.50 volts with 1880 mA on three cells. That’s 14.1 watts, about the same power consumed as the CL808s. Keep in mind though that 14 watts is the initial power draw, on fresh batteries. I would guess from what I have observed that the power would drop to less than 12 watts in just a minute or two, so I see little problem with overheating the reflector, based on what I have read earlier in this thread.

Light meter tests showed that the overall light flux (lumens) is about the same as the M3T. Bouncing light off the ceiling with the meter looking upward, I measured 69.0 lux for the Mag 2C CL612 light and 72.1 lux for the M3T. Keep in mind that these are only _relative_ levels -- useful only for comparison.

Center of beam measurement showed the Mag 2C CL612 to be 17140 lux, compared with the M3T’s 10450 lux. These are true measurements, taken at a distance of 1 meter.

Well, I now have an alternative to the CL808. The CL612 has the following *advantages*:
<ul type="square">[*]The cost is lower -- $4.14 vs. $7.81 [*]The problems associated with using a fourth 123 batteries are gone. No grinding. No bits of aluminum foil. [*]I think it may be brighter. [*]The bulb works without having to first drain the batteries partially. It can take the full voltage. [*]There are fewer unpleasing artifacts in the beam, perhaps due to the thick lens at the tip of the bulb.
[/list]
The *disadvantages* of using a CL612 are:
<ul type="square">[*]A shorter run time. It draws 50 per cent more current. I haven’t done a run-time measurement yet, but I would guess it would run 35 minutes, as compared with an estimated 60 minutes for the CL808. Of course, when you replace the batteries it’s only 3 instead of 4. [*]Gosh, I can’t think of any others! . . . except that I have only three CL612s . . . I’ll have to buy more.
[/list]
I have now talked myself into believing that the CL612 is a better option. I would like to hear what the rest of you think. I am particularly interested in hearing from those old-timers who have put together CL808 configurations. Did you have trouble with the bulbs flashing out? Is my analysis correct, or am I making some obvious, silly mistake.


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## Ginseng (May 15, 2003)

Good gosh. There was no mention from those who did this mod regarding blowing out bulbs. Thank god I didn't place my order yet. Based on this account, I'm going to pass on the 808s.

Wilkey


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## Ginseng (May 15, 2003)

Interesting, I'm actually surprised the 612 didn't blow with 3X123s. But it certainly seems to be a good option for the Mag2C.

I was thinking about running the 809 in a 4X123 configuration. Its spec rating is for 10.5V @ 1200 mA. This puts it right on target based on your breadboard measurements. This should deliver a spec 310 lumens with the full filament life. 

The other option I was considering was to parallel supply the 1057 bulb. That one is a 6V @ 2000 mA delivering 12 W and 236 lumens. I've been tinkering with a 2 X ( 3X123) configuration in the 6-cell Mag 4C body. But based on your findings, I think I might throw the 612 in there instead. The 1057 is nice in that it offers 200hr bulb life as opposed to the 20hr of the 808 and 809. 

Thanks for reporting on this Paul. And thanks for taking the flash for us other thinkerers. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 15, 2003)

Yes, the bulb-blowing thing was a startling surprise to me. I'm glad you didn't order either. I'm hoping that those who went before may shed some light on this.

The CR809 indeed sounds interesting. I suspect, however, that the 1047 would have problems. Fresh SF123s have a volt-ampere characteristic such that, when 3 123s are connected to a bulb, the voltage across a bulb will be equal to

V = 9 - 0.888 * I, (V in volts, I in Amps)

This is based empirically on my measurements for various bulbs. For example when I connected the SF MN16 250-lumen HOLA to 3 x 123s, I measured 6.8v & 2.48A. When I connected the KPR-112, I measured 8.3v & 0.79A.

So, getting back to the 1047, a lamp drawing 2.0 A would draw the voltage of the 3 123s down to:

V = 9 - 0.888 * 2.0 = 9 - 1.776 = 7.224 volts

But that is substantially more than the 6.0 v it's rated for. And, with over driven voltage, the current would also be more - more than 2.0 Amps. That's why I think there might be problems.

Ouch. This stuff makes my head ache. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm getting to like what the CR612 does. The throw of this bulb in the 2C far surpasses the M3T, although the spot is small. (BTW, my M3T tests are with the SF MN16 250-lumen HOLA.)

My big concern, as I think about it, is how long the CR612 bulb will last. It's rated for 6.0v & 1.7A. On fresh batteries I'm running it at 7.5v & 1.88 A. That's quite a large overdrive. Time will tell. I'll keep track of how much time I put on the bulbs. If the typical CR612 will last through ten or so battery changes, it's worthwhile to me, because it is such a bright kick-butt light. 

------------------------------------------------

E D I T

For more discussion of the bulb voltage equations, please look here.


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## kubolaw (May 15, 2003)

I've been running the Carley 808's for a while now, and have also experienced the rapid bulb failure (just one, though). Nice clean filament break through a pretty new bulb. Basically an overvoltage break that's always going to be an issue when running the lamp on a higher-than-design voltage. But then again, that has been my only failure after about 20 batteries.

But it's also enough of a concern that I've also been looking at that 809 lamp that Ginseng mentioned.

John


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## soloco (May 15, 2003)

I'm currently using their 716 with 3 123s in a 2D. It's one of my favorite combinations. Also very bright.


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## Ginseng (May 16, 2003)

Paul,

You think _your_ head aches. I'm a chemical engineer, I avoided electricity classes in college /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif In any case, thanks for the clarification. Oh, it's the "1057" bulb, BTW. I still think the parallel 3X123 configuration would have value with the 612 though. Wouldn't that roughly double the runtime? Plus, the length of the 4C makes a much more useable baton. Still, a significantly sub-20 hr bulb lifetime gives me pause as it does you. 17KLux, outstanding!

Kubolaw,

The 809 would run with a nice margin of safety in a 3X123. It might run on 4X123 if the batteries were not especially fresh. What do you think? Let me know if you are interested in picking up a few. I wouldn't mind splitting the cost on a batch of lamps. 

All this discussion of incandescents is so far from the LED world. My ab 5W Mag 2D makes 150 lumens max and its life is considered short at "only" 1000 hours or so. Of course its color is much nicer to the eye, but the flexibility one can access with the variety of bulbs out there is just staggering.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 16, 2003)

Wilkey,

Right, 1057. Thanks for the clarification.

By parallel 3x123 configuration with the 612, do you mean 6 cells yielding 9 volts nominal, as in the SF M6? If so, it would give a little more than double the run time. "More" than double because the cells would be less strained and would give more total energy (mA-hours). But with the parallel configuration, the effective resistance would be about half and increase the overdrive, decreasing the bulb life further.

If you plan on a group buy I would like to participate. I'd like to try the CR809. But I'd also like to get some more CR612s if my tests over the next week indicate they give sufficiently long life.

I want to repeat an idea for any one else so that it won't get lost. 

[ QUOTE ]
*Paul_W said:*
I would like to hear what the rest of you think. I am particularly interested in hearing from those old-timers who have put together CL808 configurations. Did you have trouble with the bulbs flashing out? Is my analysis correct, or am I making some obvious, silly mistake.


[/ QUOTE ]


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## Ginseng (May 16, 2003)

Paul,

I will offer to handle the group buy. The "612" bulb, suitable for 3X123 is $3.11 (+ a potting fee of about $1.80). The "808" and "809", suitable for 3X123 is $7.89, potted. The "716" and "717", suitable for 3X123 is $5.39 There is a total $50 minimum order and I believe you must order at least five of each type that is to be potted. I'll assemble an "at a glance" comparison table so people can understand the attributes of each bulb. As of this moment, the "612" looks to be the best value with the "809" looking like the most robust, high output option. 

That's right, 6-cells 9-volt nominal. I'm working on a CR123 carrier tube insert for the 4C that should allow you to run two 3X123 stacks in parallel. I had not considered the drop in resistance but if that is the case, a 1-ohm resistor should do the trick, don't you think?

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 16, 2003)

Wilkey,

For my recent order from Carley Lamps the 612s were $4.14 each. The 808s were $7.81 each. The 612s come in a PR base. Carley already had four 808s; there was no minimum number.

Nice of you to offer to draw up a comparison table and handle a group buy. Thanks.

The internal resistance of a stack of three fresh 123s in series, in my tests, turned out to be 0.89 ohms. Putting two banks on parallel would give half that (0.45 ohms). Adding another 0.45 ohms in series with the whole battery configuration would result in an effective resistance of ~0.89 ohms. The current through the bulb would equal what it would have been with just 3 cells in series. For the CL612 bulb, then the current would be 1.88 A, the power consumed by the resistor would be P = I^2 * R = 1.88 * 1.88 * 0.45 = 1.59 W. A 0.47 ohm, 2 Watt resistor would be appropriate.

If, however, you want to drop the current, more resistance would be good. To drop it to 1.7 A (the rated value for the bulb) a rough calculation says to add an additional ) 0.4 ohms. So, yes, it appears that the 1 ohm you suggest would operate CL612 very close to spec. The required wattage would be P = 1.7 * 1.7 * 1 = 2.89 watts. I guess you'd need a 5 watter. The downside is that 20% of your power would be going into the resistor.

I guess that's far more than you wanted to know about whether "a 1-ohm resistor should do the trick." I could have just said "yes." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif 

----------------

John,

Thanks for sharing your experiences about only one failure in 20 batteries.


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## PaulW (May 16, 2003)

A thought just occured to me. Perhaps differences in experience with bulbs flashing has to do with what brand of 123s are being used.

Some of the threads about batteries say that SureFires are more robust. It could be that SF batteries would cause flash-ups in situations where other brands with a lesser high-current capability would not be so energetic.

I use SureFires. Wouldn't it be weird to discover that they don't work as well because "they work so well"?


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## Ginseng (May 16, 2003)

Thanks for the further clarification. Now, what did you just say? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

On the batteries, have you ever done a side-by-side with the SF123 versus any other type? I've used Energizer and Duracell CR123s as well. 

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 16, 2003)

Nope. I'm a SureFire man, all the way. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## Illuminated (May 16, 2003)

FWIW,

I had a 1057 potted in a PR base to do some testing. With it's 200 hour rating at 6V, it can also deliver some 451 lumens at 7.2V for a calculated life in excess of 20 hours. Nice and bright with excellent color temperature, but the Mag reflector can't take it for more than a few minutes at a time. It does kick @$$ though, for a PR-based lamp. 

If anyone else would like to experiment with this PR-based 1057 - it's available...

Due to the reflector problem, I made my own PR-base adapter and installed a TigerLight lamp. I like it.

John


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## LEDmodMan (May 17, 2003)

Will the Carley reflectors fit into a Mag head? I know there'e s a lot of meat in the mag head, just wondering. How big are those things? Didn't see it on the webpage. Anyone tried this?


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## Ginseng (May 17, 2003)

I would like to know that as well. Patty told me that the reflectors do not fit. But I assume that's as a drop-in. The 2" diameter should allow some milling to make it fit. Also, the back of the Carley reflectors are pretty well cut away. As for the meat in a Mag head, there is a large "shelf" that can be significantly milled out and still maintain screw-down. I just wish I had a mill to take down a head with. Roth, how about a hand?

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 17, 2003)

Seems like I’m spending more time on this than I ever intended. But I’m chugging along and thought it would be good to give a report.

*Run-time tests.*

I have had the time to do some run tests of the CL612 bulb in the Mag 2C. So I finished using up the first set of batteries.

------------------------------------

Test 1. Using second set of fresh 3 x SF123. Showing time in minutes and relative reflected light level. Flashlight horizontal on hot pad.

000 turn on flashlight
.25 1960
.50 1830
.75 1810
1.0 1820
1.5 1830
2.0 1840
2.5 1830
03 1810
04 1790
05 1750
06 1720
change scale
08 1687 
10 1620
12 1553
14 1464
15 1415 turn off

At 15 minutes I turned the light off because the reflector was clouding a little around the edge. The handle was hot, and the head was hotter. I decided to continue the test with a 15-on and 15-off protocol, not disturbing the positions of light and meter.

30 turn on flashlight
.25 1531
.50 1475
31 1394
32 1301
33 1239
35 1162
37 1114
39 1065
41 1009
43 953
45 877 turn off

60 turn on
.25 1255
.50 1193
61 1101
62 953
64 750
66 600
68 454
70 341
72 262
75 185 turn off

The clouding on the reflector edge was no worse than it was after the first 15 minutes. But when I picked up the light, I saw that the reflector had bubbled (more like dimpled) in a small central area just above the bulb. Neither the integrity of the reflector nor the beam shape were harmed.

------------------------------------

Test 2. Using third set of fresh 3 x SF123. This time the reflector head is left off.

000 turn on flashlight -- bulb flashes

Ughh. Replace bulb and try again.

000 turn on flashlight
.25 823
.50 785
1.0 784
1.5 790
2.0 794
2.5 795
3.0 795
3.5 794
04 791
05 785
06 777
07 768
08 758
10 737
12 709
14 666
16 639
18 613
20 588
22 562
24 536
26 509
28 480
30 444
32 411
34 374
36 330 turn off. It took almost the entire 36 minutes for the handle to get hot. When I took out the batteries, which were encased in a section of rubber hose, they were _very_ hot.

------------------------------------

Test 3. See if the bulb flashes on a new set (fourth) of batteries.

It works okay; no flash.

------------------------------------

*A few observations.*

Two bulbs were used for four sets of batteries. Battery cost = $15.00. Bulb cost = $8.28 =~ half battery cost. The cause of such short life for the first bulb may have been that I ran down the batteries until they were very dim. Size15s has said that this practice shortens bulb life.

Run time for Test 1 was 27 minutes (before the light intensity was reduced to half). For Test 2 it was 32 minutes. The batteries lasted longer when the flashlight was left on continuously. Hmmmm.

The bubbling of the reflector might actually be advantageous. The dimpling that results, particularly near the center of the reflector tends to smooth out the beam and hide nasty artifacts. I have experimented using lambda’s sputtering technique, which involves spraying a clear heat-resistant clear paint on the reflector. It has been somewhat successful. I find that I prefer what it does to the beam when I mask the reflector so that the clear spray is applied only to the center half of the reflector.

But if you feel that bubbling the reflector is not really such a good idea, it can probably be avoided by turning off the light when it gets hot to hold. Be aware though that the head gets much hotter than the handle, indicating that the heat is flowing from the head to the handle.

*Always more questions.*

What now? I guess I’m going to relax a bit and see what happens if I let all this sink in. I’ll also be watching to see what ideas some of you come up with.

That Carley 809 is looking better and better.

Illuminated. I’d like to know more about the 1057. Where is it available? When you say 451 lumens at 7.2V, is this the open-circuit battery voltage or the voltage applied under load? Do you know what the current is under these conditions? What is the current at the rated 6 volts? A lot of questions. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I’d be grateful for whatever answers you might have access to.

Paul


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## Illuminated (May 17, 2003)

Paul,

I had purchased several custom-potted lamps directly from Carley Lamps some months ago, including (1) #1057.

The 1057 is rated at 6 volts/2 amps/ 12 watts/ 19 mscp (238.76 lumens)/2900 deg kelvin/200 hours avg life.

Using the re-rating formulas from the Welch-Allyn site (walamps.com), running this lamp at 7.2 volts (6 1.2 volt high capacity NiCads or NiMHs) should perform something like this:

7.2 volts/2.21 amps/15.9 watts/35.97 mscp (451.96 lumens)/>2900 deg kelvin/22.43 avg life

This would represent the lamp voltage under load, or while connected to the battery(s). The NiCads I used actually showed higher voltage with a fresh charge, and then maintained above 1.2 volts/cell throughout the duration of discharge. I wouldn’t use AA’s for anything above 1 watt per cell as the voltage drops quite a bit under higher current loads.

I initially tested the 1057 lamp in a Mag 4D using (6) Powerstream 1/2D high-capacity NiCad cells. The stock reflector started bubbling near the lamp in just a couple of minutes. It was impressive, though.

I had a dead Tigerlight lamp assembly (aluminum reflector) so I removed the lamp and filed down the stub tube on the rear of the reflector until I obtained good focus. I used a 0 .005” stainless focusing ring with the lamp to provide a smooth surface for the reflector tube to push against. (These are the same spacers that Carley includes with their Xenon Star lamps for flashlights.)

The TL reflector tube simply pushes the lamp/lampholder down as the head is screwed on, as opposed to the way the stock reflector pushes against the Mag’s reflector cam follower. There is no adjustable focus using this setup, as the focus is determined by the length of the reflector stub tube relative to the lamp filament height. I filed mine down a little shorter than optimum, and then added a second focusing spacer to bring it back to optimum focus.

FWIW - I even bubbled a Mag reflector while doing a runtime test using the Carley 805 lamp (3.7 volt/1.6 amp). While the bubbling doesn't render the reflector unusable, I am not comfortable with the notion that it might deteriorate further with continued use.

It's interesting to hear that you spattered the reflector only in the area nearest the lamp. I've been meaning to try that since the beginning of the year and just haven't gotten around to it.

I've also been meaning to try similar things (partial coverage) using flat white. I've experimented with white before and noted that it reflects well and disperses evenly. I'm hoping to find a combination that produces more side spill without obliterating the center spot.

Hope this helps - John


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## Ginseng (May 17, 2003)

You know, 

Upon rereading some of the latest postings here, I realized that all this work, while fun, is like trying to make a Triumph TR7 do 72mph in the slalom, the quarter mile in 12 seconds and survive the Safari Rally. It's challenging, but just a bit absurd don't you think? Anyway, nice work Illuminated and Paul on the runtime. 

Wilkey


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## Illuminated (May 18, 2003)

Aw, c'mon Wilkey!

It's just a hobby - you know...a bit of a brain tease to take our(my)mind off the stressful and important stuff everyday life bombards us with. It is for me, anyway.

Even if we (I) could afford to buy that Porsche/Viper/HumVee/whatever...ya know we'd be surfin the net for the hottest tips & stuff to modify it and make it better/faster/cooler/whatever...It's in our nature to not be contented with things just the way they are. We somehow feel the need to always try and push that envelope.

I'm just having some fun finding out what works and what doesn't. I also have been enjoying reading here about what others have learned doing same.

That old Mag-Lite's never gonna be a Tigerlight, any more than my old '82 VW pickup's ever going to be a Porsche...even though their performance today is far superior than when new. BTW, I bought the TigerLight, but I think the Porcsche is out of the question /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif

Just havin' some fun - John


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## Icebreak (May 18, 2003)

What was that jeepish looking '80s VW? The "Thing"? Maybe Vincent Price was the spokesperson? I know it wasn't Ricardo Montavon because the "Thing" didn't have rich Corinthian leather.

That's gotta be worth something. There have been many ugly vehicles built, but that one can not only take the cake but can haul several cakes. Of course there was the Pacer. Don't laugh too hard. Lots of cars now a days seem to want to be a Pacer.

But an '82 VW pick-up? In dusty chartreuse? That's gotta hurt. Well, I would really like one with a Porsche transmission running a 10 cyl. Viper on a Hum Vee frame whilst I wield an over-amped, Mag...vehicle and light both steaming. I mean, how creative is a black Corvette and a black C3?


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## Ginseng (May 18, 2003)

John,

You're right of course. I guess recent events have been on my mind. Let the modding continue. After all, I am just the sort of guy to try putting a $1.36 plastic connector in my turbo blowoff valve line to try and get an extra 0.5 PSI of boost. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wilkey

PS. Let me know if you've got any more dead TL lamp/reflectors, I'll buy one off you to try some things.


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## flashlightlens (May 18, 2003)

Wilkey - I just found a dead one yesterday - I'll send it out to you.


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## Illuminated (May 18, 2003)

Icebreak,

Ya know - I had on of those "Things" in high school. Yes, it *was* ugly. People used to ask be if it was home-made or something. It was all I could afford at the time, and it was actually a fun vehicle. One would probably would be worth something today if rust free (ahh-that's the rare part...)

As for the pickup - well that too was had cheap and is still driven daiy. It's not pretty, starting to rust, paint is looking horrible, but after a few tweaks - it rocks! 

That old truck is a sleeper - 110+mph, scratches tires in 3 gears, handles like a go-kart, and consistently gets 30+mpg.

Kind of like that favorite old pair of sneakers that you still wear no matter how bad they get ot what they look like.

Alright, back to the topic...keep those ideas coming...

John


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## Ginseng (May 18, 2003)

Well,

My first car was an Olds Cutlass Supreme. Weighed about 5,000 pounds with an anemic 5L V8 and was, hmm, interesting to drive and stop the one time I'd inadvertently worn the front discs down to the metal backing pads. 

Ahh, the Thing. A vehicle with true character...unlike the modern day analog, the Pontiac Aztek. That thing is just plain fugly. 

I'm compiling a list of Carley bulbs and specs just to try and pull things together. Should be up later today.

Wilkey


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## Ginseng (May 18, 2003)

Mr. FLens,

Thanks a bunch! I apologize for not recalling your name. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 18, 2003)

John (Illuminated),

Thanks. Yes, what you say _does_ help. I appreciate your posting all of this information.

I am tantalized by your reference to re-rating formulas from the Welch-Allyn site. I checked them out, but got lost in their site. I found out about their Fed Tax ID # and such, but nothing about re-rating formulas.

I came upon the idea of sputtering only in the area nearest the bulb when I noted that some commercial flashlights are faceted only near the bulb. I then spent time playing with the beam and observed the results of blocking out certain areas on the lens. It seems that light from the center of the reflector contributes mainly to the outer fringes of the center beam. Light from the edge of the reflector contributes mainly to the very center of the beam. 

So then, sputtering near the center of the reflector should disperse light at the edge of the center spot, thus smoothing it and making it more circular. Sputtering around the outer edge of the reflector should disperse light from the beam center (making it weaker) and markedly increase side spill. I used this reasoning to decide where to place my masking tape before spraying and have found that it holds true in practice.

Wilkey (ginseng),

Regarding the absurdity of trying to soup up a Mag 2C -- sometimes a challenge is enough in itself. But here there's more. I want a flashlight as bright as my SF M3T, that throws further, that I can afford to keep in my _old_ car, with another in my _old-beat-up_ car, and maybe a few more for here and there around the house. I can do it with this mod. I can have six of them for the price of a M3T.

So I have the M3T for beauty-of-beam, ruggedness, reliability, and show-off value. And I have the 2Cs as workhorses. If they get beaten up or stolen, the loss is small.

And I agree with John -- we're learning and "havin' some fun." But then, Wilkey, you know all that already, huh? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif 

Paul


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## Illuminated (May 18, 2003)

Thanks for that useful reflector info Paul, I'm on my way out to get some flat white spray paint to play with. You've given me the info I think I was after, and that should help steer me in the direction I want to go with some modified reflectors.

I'd like soften the edges of the main center spot some, but create more side spill on one side only for a bike light mod. I need the one-sided side spill to lay down more light directly in front of the bike, but still maintain a well-blended center beam for throw. This should be interesting...

Sorry for dragging this thread off-topic a bit /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twak.gif

Paul, I can't recall exactly where the WA application info was on their site, but I can look for it again later and get back to you. I think I still have a copy of the file on my desktop if nothing else.

Wilkey, are you considering a Carley group buy now that they're back to a minimum order requirement? If so, I might have interest in couple of lamps to try...

Thanks - John


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## Illuminated (May 18, 2003)

Paul,

I think this should take you to the WA Electrical Characteristics PDF:

http://www.walamp.com/Product_Pdfs/isl297b.pdf 

John


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## PaulW (May 18, 2003)

John,

Whoa! Are you sure you want *white* paint? It will tend to absorb more of the light than a clear paint. I use clear engine paint in a spray can from Pep Boys. It's heat resistant. I can't guarantee what will happen with other finishes.

I hope you get to read this before go out to get the paint.


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## PaulW (May 18, 2003)

John, thanks for the link to WA. The idea of creating more side spill on just one side is intriguing. Perhaps this would be done by spraying two spots diametrically opposite at the edge of the reflector??? You could do trials without paint by applying tape temporarily. Although it would absorb some of the light and decrease the total output, it would block reflection from that part of the reflector and might give you an idea of how the center beam would change. Similarly, two opposite spots of tape near the center should make the center beam oval. Just a thought. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wilkey, I also am interested in buying more Carley lamps.


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## Illuminated (May 18, 2003)

Paul,

While white does probably absorb more than the clear, it still reflects well with *lots* of dispersion. I've texturized several reflectors with a uniform application of the clear sputtering, and wanted to play a little with the white. Besides, I've got a couple of those bubbled reflectors to play with, so I've nothing to lose.

I once had to build a graphic display panel for an inustrial machine that utilized a masked silkscreened overlay with colored, smoke-tinted translucent windows with lights positioned behind them. I used plastic cups to prevent light from spilling into adjacent windows, but the smoke tint (which made the windows dissappear when off) made the colored windows look pretty dim and uneven when lit. Applying bright silver paint inside the cups made no difference I could detect. Applying flat white made a remarkable difference. So, you see, this is why I'm thinking that strategic application of white could be of some use for diffusing/shaping the reflected beam...or not -I'll find out as time permits.

John


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## Ginseng (May 18, 2003)

Ok, here is a table with the Carley Xenon bulbs that have been discussed in this monster thread. I transferred the information from Carley's website. I've also included simple tables of battery configurations and Mag 2C body battery capacities. 

I have sorted the bulbs by voltage. I've also applied the formula that Paul_W has determined from his empirical testing of SF123 batteries. The end result is an analysis of the bulbs by battery configuration and their over/underdrive level. I finish up with recommendations. Bulbs with "PR" suffix come in a PR base. All others must be potted for a fee of approximately $1.80.

*Bottom line:* The Carley stock xenon line, surprisingly, does not have a good, very high brightness option for the 3xSF123 battery configuration. Their economical Xenon Star bulbs for 6 and 7 cell flashlights are the best option in terms of a balance between longevity and output. The over/underdrive means that they both will likely yield very similar lumens. The 4xSF123 configuration has one clear winner, the 809. It is mildly overdriven and will produce nearly as many raw lumens as the MN61 HOLA for the SF M4. The ability to focus the Mag head means an insane amount of lux at the hotspot. The 926, 999 and 801 also appear to be good options. After running this analysis, I'm going to be ordering a Mag 3C body and some Carley 809 bulbs for it. I'll also be getting some 805's for my 3D torches.

*Bulb_Volts_Amps_Watts_Candles_Lumens_Life_Batts_Vcalc_Over/Under*
724_____3.7___1.50___5.5____9.5___119___20 
805_____3.7___1.60___5.9___11.8___148___20 
1047____3.7___1.70___6.3____9.5___119___15 
611PR___6.0___1.50___9.0___12.0___150___??___2____4.67___-1.33
612PR___6.0___1.70__10.2___14.5___182___??___2____4.49___-1.51
1057____6.0___2.00__12.0___19.0___238__200___2____4.22___-1.78
716PR___7.6___0.77___5.8___10.3___129___??___3____8.32____0.72
1168____7.6___0.80___6.1___10.5___131___25___3____8.29____0.69
717PR___9.1___0.78___7.1___14.2___178___??___3____8.31___-0.79
1169____9.2___0.80___7.4___14.4___181___25___3____8.29___-0.91
808_____9.6___1.20__11.5___23.0___289___20___3____7.93___-1.67
809____10.5___1.20__12.6___25.0___314___20___4___10.93____0.43
926____11.5___0.83___8.5___15.9___199__400___4___11.26___-0.24
801____12.0___1.00__12.0___20.0___251___25___4___11.11___-0.89
999____12.0___1.00__12.0___15.0___188_1000___4___11.11___-0.89
762____13.7___0.63___8.6___13.5___169__200___5___14.44____0.74

Life is in hours, vcalc is Paul_W's calculated voltage pulldown, batts is number of SF123 batteries and over/under is the volts over or underdriven.

*Over/Underdrive Legend*
+ or - +/- <0.50 volts, mild
++ or --	+/- 0.51-1.00 volts,	moderate
+++ or ---	+/- 1.01-1.50 volts,	severe
++++ or ----	+/- >1.51 volts, extreme (likely to flash)

Important: The lumens delivered are at the spec voltage and current. Overdrive will increase this number and shorten the bulb life. Underdrive will have the opposite effect. The lumens are calculated by multiplying MSCP (candlepower by 12.57).

*For 3xSF123 Configuration*
716PR___129 lumens	++ (recommended)
717PR___178 lumens	-- (recommended)
1057____239 lumens	+++
611_____151 lumens	++++
612_____182 lumens	++++
808_____289 lumens	----

*For 4xSF123 Configuration*
809_____314 lumens	+ (highly recommended)
926_____200 lumens	- (recommended, long life)
999_____189 lumens	-- (recommended, extra long life)
801_____251 lumens	-- (recommended)
808_____289 lumens	+++

*For 5xSF123 Configuration* 
762_____170 lumens	++ (recommended)

Several bulbs could have been analyzed with an alternate battery configuration. For example, the 611PR, 612PR and 1057 when driven with 3xSF123 results in the extreme overdrive situation. Of course, driving them with the next fewer number results in severe underdrive. 

*Mag "C" body tube capacities*
size__# of SF123
2____3, +4
3____4, +5
4____6, +7

The "+" rating means the tailspring must be removed and an alternate contact method made.

Comments and critique are invited. Forgive the crazy underscoring.. apparently I don't know how to get tabs working in UBB. As for a group buy, log your interest in this thread and we'll see what we can do.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 18, 2003)

John,

Great. Looks like you know all too well what you're up to. I'll be anxious to hear what conclusions you may draw from your work.

Wilkey,

Wow! What can I say? What a massive effort. Thanks. I'm going to copy it to MS Word and give it some intense study tomorrow.

I'd do it tonight except that I've gotten myself involved in some run-time tests. I have to jump up every three minutes to record volts, amps, and lux. When doing these tests, I find I can't concentrate on anything else. If I were planning to do a lot of these in the future, I'd get a computer interface as some of the others in CPF have.

I like the work you've done on over/underdrive. I don't understand it yet, but it appears at first blush to be exactly what I need to sort out all the information that's available.

Underscoring. Yeah, that's a good way to line up the columns. I had problems with that and no solution.

Paul


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## Illuminated (May 18, 2003)

Wilkey, Nice going! Good summarization...

BTW, one of the lamps I wanted to try is one of the T1 Xenon's Carley has - might be an alternative to the Nexstar for 2AA's - I posted an inquiry on it previously and apparently no one has ever tried it.

I've been using the 805 in my 2D with 3 x 1/2D Powerstream battlebot batts and a UCL. Decent improvement over the stock 2D.

Be advised: the 805 (and any other lamp of the same form factor) was too long to focus properly in the Mag. I had to relocate the reflector cam roller about .100" higher than its original position by drilling and tapping a new hole in the lampholder body. This allowed the Mag reflector cam to push the lampholder assembly down far enough to focus tightly.

Paul, Might take a litte while before I have results to report (forgot the paint today /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twak.gif) Was in a rush to mow my acre of jungle B4 the next monsoon...

[EDIT] Also, note the statement from WA that the re-rating formulas are a generalization based on ideal conditions, and that the greater the deviation from the lamp design voltage - the greater the error. I use the old TI-30X calculator 'cus it has 3 memories and the y to the x power key you'll need to run those re-rating calculations. Generally speaking, you'll not want to overdrive a given lamp by more than roughly 10% higher voltage, a pay attention to the lamp life...it can get awefully short.

Keep it coming! John


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## paulr (May 19, 2003)

I'm surprised at the low crossover between this thread and the discussions of monstrously powerful Welch-Allyn bulbs for the Magcharger. Have folks here considered both options?

There was a Magcharger/Powerstream/WA setup that sold for $90 on BST a few days ago... I didn't buy it but remain interested in that combo. The Magcharger is 3D sized, not all that much bigger than a 3C Mag, and the WA bulbs are supposed to be very long lasting. The rechargeable batteries make operating costs a heck of a lot lower than using 123's. And the WA's light output is even higher than the Carley's under discussion here, apparently. Finally, the bulbs cost a little over $2.00 each, not bad at all except for the $100 minimum order (group buy!).

I think a 285 lumen Mag 2C is interesting but if the host has to be a 3C then the Magcharger/WA starts looking better.


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## Ginseng (May 19, 2003)

Paul_W,
Let me know what you think of the post when you are done digesting. 

John,
If we were to do a Carley group buy, I think it would be worthwhile to try and get some of the stainless steel spacing rings as well. That would hopefully eliminate the need for any milling of the Mag innards.

paulr,
I missed that thread in BST. Could you relate the specifics for those of us who are attention-challenged? I think it would be useful to do a materials vs operating cost comparison for the two setups. Of course the SF123 option would be cheaper at first, but exactly where those two curves intersect would be helpful in making the buying decision. Also, there is already a high-powered rechargeable which doesn't require any mods at all, the Tigerlight. And the TL has the benefit of a NiMH powerpack.

Regards,
Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 19, 2003)

Stainless steel spacer rings: When I ordered 9 bulbs from Carley, they sent me 14 spacers. I believe this is automatic.

Rechargeable vs. 123s: Yes, there would be a tradeoff in costs and ease of use. I believe it depends on frequency of use. Very light use (my case) would favor 123s. Heavy use, rechargeables.

Paulr -- thanks for weighing in here. We can use all the ideas and critique anyone is willing to bring.


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## PaulW (May 19, 2003)

I have digested the comprehensive post that analyzes bulb and battery combinations. Again, many thanks for your work, Wilkey. Your charts speak for themselves. Thus, there’s not much for me to say, but you’re probably getting to know me well enough to realize that I’ll be saying something anyway. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I put the info on a spread sheet to play with. I notice that you expanded on the formula for V.calc to include the number of cells:

V.calc = ~ 3 * (number.cells – R.batt * amps)

Where R.batt = 0.296 ohms. It’s good to keep in mind that the formula is based on a model of a 123 battery which is comprised of a perfect 3 volt battery in series with internal resistance, R.batt. When a battery is fresh, R.batt (from calculations derived from observation) is assumed to be about 0.3 ohm and to increase as the battery discharges. So, the amount of under- or over-drive that it predicts is for when the batteries are fresh. (I am assuming that bulb specifications apply to fresh battery conditions. If I'm wrong, I hope someone will speak up.) In any event it's important to remember that the formula *is only an approximation*, but it should work fairly well as long as the overdrive or underdrive is not too large.

BTW, I did a breadboard test to determine how R.batt increases with discharge. Here are some of the data from a test of a SF MN03 lamp for the SF E2e (time in minutes; R.batt in ohms, calculated; Light intensity, relative).

Time_R.batt__Light
.25___0.36___250
01___0.48___216
15___0.51___207
30___0.65___174
45___0.86___136
60___1.39___066
69___2.07___024

I have also found that battery life is in somewhat inverse proportion to the current consumed. I don’t know precisely what that relationship is, but a comparison of measured initial current with the advertised battery life for various SureFire lamp assemblies is:

Lamp assem.___Amps__minutes
MN03 in E2e___1.10___75
MN15 in M3T___1.20___60
MN16 in M3T___2.48___20

My choices for lamps in the group buy will be two: (1) the 809 for the 2C body with 4 x 123 to keep in the car for occasional high-intensity (289 L) use and battery life of about 60 minutes, and (2) the 762 for a 3C body with 5 x 123 for use at home for longer medium intensity (169 L) use and battery life of about 2 hours.

I’m guessing that the cost will be about $8 each (not including S&H). Right? It looks like we’ll get to the $50 minimum easily. I just have to figure out how many of each I want.


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## paulr (May 19, 2003)

Magcharger BST thread is here 

The threads about the WA lamps that it links to are also informative. The Magcharger/WA combo is supposed to blow away the Tigerlight. The Mag is also more waterproof and the charging system is nicer, from what I understand. The light is bigger/heavier though.

The Battlebot cells are 1/2D Nicad with stupendous current capacity.

As for these 2C lights, it might be worth looking into some smaller hosts than the Mag 2C. The 2C NexStar that Mr. Bulk used for the NexNeedle might be a good candidate.


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## Ginseng (May 19, 2003)

Thanks for the additional analysis Paul_W. I also noticed the inverse relationship with current. In fact, current seems to be as strong if not stronger a predictor of lumens than the voltage. I wonder why? Those WA bulbs pull around 3.5 amps. That would never fly in a plastic reflector light. I like the choice of the 762 bulb. However, since I have three 3D's lying around, I'm going to go for the 805 and get 150 lumens out. This should exceed even the overdriven KPR112 in the present 3x123 in 2C configuration and with much longer runtime. I'm planning on ordering a Mag 3C from Zbattery. Are you all set?

The intermittent use I'd get from this light would lend itself well to the 2CxSF123 setup. My Illuminator and 5W on NiMHs get the heavy and constant usage. 

Paulr,
Thanks for the link. After I posted, I dragged my lazy butt over to the forum and found it myself. I can say this, the WA site sucks to navigate. The Carley site is so much more straightforward. I'm just not into the Nexstar body. I like the svelte-ness of the Mag "C" bodies. Maybe it's just me. 

Wilkey


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## paulr (May 19, 2003)

Ginseng, you might like the Coleman 2AA body that Mr. Bulk's colleague bored out to take 123 cells for the Mr. Bulk SGK. Since it involves machining it's a more difficult mod than these 2C sleeve things though.

Someone is selling an SGK on Ebay, by the way. It will probably go for a lot. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


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## Ginseng (May 19, 2003)

Any info or pics on that Coleman mod paul?


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## PaulW (May 19, 2003)

Wilkey,

Current is a good way to estimate battery life, because it measures rate of energy loss per cell, whereas voltage depends on the number of cells and the resistance of the bulb. This is hard to explain for me. So, I'm going to go out on a limb and tell a story.

A number of cells get together to throw a party. One particular cell, let's call him "George," doesn't know how many other cells there are or how long they can all party before they are tired out. He just knows how much energy he has and how much he can keep going. He knows that the wilder the party, the faster energy is sucked out of him (higher current), and the sooner he'll get tired and have to leave the party. How long that takes doesn't depend on how many others are there or what the total effort is, just how wild it gets for him. Of course the others, Sam, Pete, etc. all have the same perspective. If they all party equally hard, they all keel over at once.

This story may not work for you, but maybe someone else can tell another story. I'd love to hear it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I also have a Mag 2D. Perhaps I could afford to buy one of the 805s, too. In answer to your question, I am all set for flashlights. I have a bunch of 2Cs saw a Mag 3C at a little hardware store a few miles from here. I'm going to get it.

----------------------

Paulr,

I've only seen pictures of the Brinkmann NextStar 2C. Haven't seen any 3Cs. I question how well one could fit 4 x 123 into a 2C, and I want to do that. Also, the diameter of the reflector looks smaller than the Mag, and I want good throw. But mostly, like Wilkey, the appearance leaves something to be desired -- looks kinda clunky to me. I appreciate the suggestion, though.

----------------------

All,

My bulb buying thoughts now (tentative) are that I'll get 1 x 805, 2 x 762, and 3 x 809. But that comes to just about $50 on its own doesn't it? Hmmmmmm. How 'bout the others here (tentatively)?


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## Ginseng (May 19, 2003)

3 x 809
3 x 805 

The story sorta works. I just remember the admonition, "current kills". So that must be where the oomph is.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 20, 2003)

Yeah. The voltage is like water pressure, and the current is like water flow. It's the flow that empties the reservoir.


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## PaulW (May 20, 2003)

I bought that Mag 3C today. I loaded in a PVC pipe instead of the rubber hose I have been using in the 2C. I like it a lot more.

I also did some spring fitting, cutting the standard Mag helical spring into two pieces -- a wide one and a narrow one. I curled in the narrower end of the wide one so that the end would make contact with the middle of the 123. It fits a 3 x 123 configuration perfectly in a Mag 2C without the excessive force that the complete spring exerts. (This is what Mr Bulk does to the Space Needle II.)

I found that I could lengthen the narrow half by stretching it and then curl in the narrower end, again to the center. It's possible to stretch it to the right length so that it fits in the end cap nicely for a 5 x 123 config in a Mag 3C. My only tools for all of this were a channel lock and a pair of pliers.

I wanted to see if I could light up the 5 x 123, but don't have the 762 bulbs yet. But I do have a DeWalt 18 volt rechargeable lantern -- the one that uses their 18 v power pack. I pulled out the extra bulb and stuck it in the 3C with the 5 x 123 and it lit up moderately brightly, even though severely underdriven.

Wilkey, I mention this in case you may want to mess around with your 4C before you get your bulbs from Carley. The DeWalt bulb might put out a lot of light with 6x. Are you brave enough to try 7x -- 21 volts? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif The base is inscribed with "BLC 600018X JAPAN."


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## Ginseng (May 20, 2003)

Hahaha, 

Paul, there isn't a bulb I'm afraid to flash /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Now that you mention it, I did see that the local Home Depot carried 12V, 14.4V and 18V bulbs. Between $6-9 per pair. Pretty steep. I didn't pick any up because I have some KPR144 14V bulbs on order. The capsules looked positively huge! Roomy with a large filament inside. Do you know what they're filled with?

I found I liked the PVC pipe a lot better as well. Very nice idea about cutting the spring. I still think it's way stiffer than needed but at least this way, you relieve some of the free length and reduce the pressure. You could probably bend the part that makes battery contact into a smaller spiral so it doesn't gouge the wrapper. 

Think there are any bulbs that we could stuff in a 10 x 123 Mag 6C body? I think we're in MR16 territory at that point. Hmmm, Benny's has 25W MR16 halogen bipins for $4.00, I wonder /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 20, 2003)

Wiley, you have become fearless -- perhaps too fearless!

With all this power, I think the limit is what the reflector will stand until it melts and runs down the side of the flashlight. At this point the trade-off is the number of Watts the bulb can put out versus the maximum safe time it can be left on. My experience tells me that the 612 running at 14 Watts will start to melt the reflector in less than 15 minutes. So there's one coarsely-defined point on the trade-off curve. Do you have any to contribute? How many minutes for that 25 Watter? Hum . . . Too bad there's not a decent inexpensive aluminum body with an aluminum reflector. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mecry.gif

KPR-144 gas? As I understand it "KPR" means Krypton and a PR base. BTW, "XPR" indicates Xenon, which is purported to allow a higher temperature. I think that means more lumens per Watt.

About cutting the spring -- the credit for that idea goes to Mr Bulk, AFAIK. He cuts the spring and bends the end into a tighter spiral. It's easy to get good ideas just from inspecting his work.


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## Ginseng (May 21, 2003)

Sorry, are the DeWalt bulbs KPR as well? The KPR bulbs I ordered are from LightBulbDepot.com. 

I agree regarding the reflector meltage. When I get the spent Tigerlight reflector from Flashlightlens, I'll investigate. I'd also love to investigate the Magcharger reflector. Even though people say it doesn't fit, I'd like to see exactly where the interference with the Mag head internals is. If it is that "shelf" on the inside, It can be ground or machined away to allow the reflector to seat and still maintain focusability, potentially. I think this would be the best option.

Another option would be the 2" collimating reflector from Carley. It appears to have a stub at the end like the Mag and it's the right diameter and roughly the right length. They have models with and without set-screw and for the T2.5 form factor of the 809 bulb. I'm thinking of the model 2102. While the ream will allow the lamp capsule to poke through, the stub would have to be cut, drilled out or otherwise manipulated to accept the 0.78" diameter of the mag lamp pedestal/PR base. Maybe a JB-welded on piece of 3/4" copper tubing or some other like extender. 

Wilkey


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## Ginseng (May 21, 2003)

My mistake,

Looking at the Magcharger diagram, the reflector looks significantly different from the regular reflector. I don't know how it could be made to work.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 21, 2003)

Wilkey,

I don't know if the DeWalt bulbs are Krypton. They are, of course, PR.

What you suggest for the Carley reflector takes more skill and courage than I have. But I'd love to hear about your adventures with it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Illuminated (May 21, 2003)

Wilkey,

Been very busy, and I gotta drive 3-1/2 hours Friday and work 'till late Monday (bummer...) but I'm still interested in some Carley lamps as soon as I re-evaluate and re-rate to determine which ones I want to try. If you decide to do a mini group buy or something - count me in.

Thanks...gotta get some sleep...John


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (May 21, 2003)

I think I should like a couple 809s...

How do we work it?


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## Ginseng (May 21, 2003)

Ok,

John, let me know by early next week what you would like.

Joe, give me a count of what you'd like by replying to this thread. 

If you haven't checked out the "Custom Buttcap" thread, take a look there. We're working with DSpeck to build us a special extended buttcap to use with the Mag 2C. It will allow 4 x 123 in a 2C without compromise. Of course, if you don't mind going to the 3C, you won't need this buttcap. Details are in that thread.

Once I get a count, probably by mid next week or so, I will email Patty at Carley for a quote, post here and then solicit funds. I'm thinking Paypal but Postal money order would save you the 3%.

Wilkey


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (May 22, 2003)

2 each 809 (pr based). 

Money order will be sent.

Plan to use a 3C M*g so no other mod neccesary!!! 

(and I am an extremely short term intermitent user, so 123s work great for me.)


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## PaulW (May 22, 2003)

I have been thinking about the costs of using some of the configurations we've been discussing here. Shown below are the characteristics that help determine the different uses that each configuration would be best for. The lower wattage with longer life would be a good around-the-house flashlight, while the higher wattage with shorter life would be the choice for a glove-compartment super-bright flashlight to use for short durations to avoid reflector melting.

Bulb _________ 805 _____ 762 _____ 809
Host ________ Mag 3C ___Mag 3C __ Mag 2C
Battery ______ 3xC _____ 5x123 ___ 4x123
Watts ________ 6.4 _____ 9.1 ______ 13.1
Drive Level ___ +9% ____ +5% _____ +4% voltage overdrive
Est Bat Life ____ 3.5 _____ 2.4 ______ 1.1 hours
Watt-hours ____ 22 ______ 22 _______ 14
Batt Cost ____ $2.25 ____ $6.25 ____ $5.00
Cost/hr. _____ $0.64 ____ $2.60 ____ $4.54

*EDIT: Above chart changed to reflect corrected numbers for battery life, watt-hours, and cost/hr.*

I have not included a 3xD configuration, which would run at about half of the 3xC cost per hour. The amount of overdrive would be more, but I don't know how much -- no D cells here to test for internal resistance. But if the internal resistance is half of that for the C cell, the amount of overdrive on the 805 bulb would be 20%, resulting in a very short bulb life.


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## paulr (May 22, 2003)

How about some bulbs to use in a Mag 2D with a 6AA battery holder (available from Elektrolumens) and six NiMH AA's? That would have no battery costs to run, and the 2D host is maybe comparable in size to the 3C.


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## PaulW (May 22, 2003)

paulr,

I'm not aware of what might work. I haven't done any experiments with AAs so that calculations for overdrive/underdrive (as in previous posts) can be made.

I can see no advantage to using AAs, unless you just happen to have them on hand. In that case, you're in for a lot of work. First, you'd have to measure the internal resistance of fresh batteries, then select candidate bulbs from the Carley site, and then make the calculations to determine the suitability of each bulb. If you want to do this and you have specific questions, feel free to e-mail me. Please note, however, that I may not be able to answer immediately -- going out of town for the weekend.


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## paulr (May 22, 2003)

The advantage to using rechargeable AA's is avoiding spending a fortune on 123's if you use the light much. The NiMH cells have very low internal resistance so if there's six of them we'd have 7.2 volts, probably just a tad less than we'd get from three 123's under similar load.


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## Ginseng (May 22, 2003)

Paul, nice analysis...you're swinging me back in the direction of the 805 again!

If we assume the 6 x AA are roughly equivalent to 3 x SF123 (my gut tells me this is a bad assumption), then we're talking about either the 716PR or 717PR as the closest viable options. Now, it's true that if there is heavy usage, the rechargeables are going to be the far better value in terms of battery costs. However, consider that the high output bulbs we're discussing here are relatively expensive and have filament lifespans in the 20-25 hr range. My guess is that because of this factor, heavy usage will eventually propel the bulb cost out of the reasonable range. So, it seems to me either way, the bucks are going to come. 

My usage is going to be very similar to Paul_W's in that it will be sporadic, intermittent. In that case, the lithium cells fit the bill. Don't get me wrong, I love the 2D/6 x AA NiMH configuration. It's what I use to drive my 5W LS mod. But that emitter has a lifespan measured in the thousands of hours making its contribution to operating costs almost negligible. 

Good discussion. Let's keep it rolling /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 22, 2003)

As I reread paulr's earlier post I see that indeed the rechargeables have a big advantage for frequent use. (I prefer the lithiums for infrequent use and freedom from recharging duties.)

It seems to me that there might be some bulbs that would work. It's just a matter of getting the voltage and current to work out. That's why I suggested using Wilkey's method (from his post here of 5/18/03 09:13 PM). The formula used to calculate Vcalc won't work, though. It would need to be changed, based on the rechargeable's internal resistance. I suppose you could say it's so low that you can assume it's zero. Don't know how well that would work.

If the bulbs cost $8.00 each and last 20 hours, they're 40 cents per hour -- perhaps still feasible even for some folks who are heavy users.


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## Elnath (May 22, 2003)

If you go ahead with the Carley group buy, I'd be interested in the following:

3x 809 (potted in PR base)
2x 612 PR
2x 999 (potted in PR base)
2x 717 PR

I'd like to get my share of spacer rings as well. I'll paypal you the total when you are ready.


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## Ginseng (May 22, 2003)

Elnath,

I think we're looking at getting firm pricing by the middle of next week. I hope that's ok for you.

Wilkey


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## Elnath (May 22, 2003)

Works for me


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## Illuminated (May 22, 2003)

Ok Wilkey,

I'll try to determine my lamp list by Tuesday evening - OK?

BTW - Take another look at the 1057 6V/2A/200 hour lamp - should run about 315 lumens at about 6.5 volts on 3 x CR123 - my best guess. Run time should be a *slightly* better than a SF P91 if my calcs are close - and no fear of bulb flash. The stock reflector should hold up for intermittent use (few minutes at a time). I always recommend the UCL lens to reduce heat build-up and get 7-9% more pass-thru.

THX - John


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## soloco (May 22, 2003)

This is a great discussion guys! I have been working on something with Carley products for a little while. It might help or not. I am using the 1940 reflector. I'm not using the 1909, because the REAM on the 1909 ended up being too narrow. This reflector fits perfectly in the head of a Maglite. I have the Xenon Star 716 (6 Cell) bulb in the stock 2D Maglite base. The problem is that it is that the bulb's filament is not in the focus of the reflector. I'm working to machine down the base of the relector about 1/4". This will focus the light, but it won't be spot/flood adjustable. This doesn't really bother me, because I don't really like the spread I get as a flood anyway. Also powered by 3 123s.


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## Ginseng (May 22, 2003)

John,

That's fine. I'll wait to hear from you before going ahead. Just let me know if your plans change. I'm still not sure about the 1057. At first glance, it seemed like a good option, however, the degree of overdrive and current pulled give me pause. 

Soloco,

Excellent. I was hoping someone had taken this up. The 2" 1940 would be the correct reflector to put in the Mag head. The focal point is 0.20 inches from a point just below the apex of the reflector. Is the lamp filament too far down in the well of the reflector? I guess that would make sense if you have to machine down the stub in back. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif What exactly is the back of the stub pressing down against? The PR flange of the bulb or the Mag lamp pedestal? Did you get any special finish on the reflector or did you just stick with the hand polished surface? Now the important question...how much was the 1940? 

If we can hammer this out, I sense that I might want to pick up a 1940 to play with. Of course, once we solve the reflector meltage dilemma, the switch assembly becomes the next weakpoint. However, I don't suppose we'll have to worry about that until we get up into the 500 lumen Welch Allen bulb territory. 

Thanks a ton for chiming in /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif,
Wilkey


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## soloco (May 22, 2003)

Ginseng~
_Is the lamp filament too far down in the well of the reflector?_
Yes.
_What exactly is the back of the stub pressing down against? The PR flange of the bulb or the Mag lamp pedestal?_
Good question. I originally had some experiments with the reflector pushing up against the flange, but I had contact problems with the bulb. I am now planning to butt the base of the reflector against the collar that holds the bulb in. In fact ... I might have to shave more that 1/4" off the base of the reflector now. I don't think I calculated the collar thickness.
_Did you get any special finish on the reflector or did you just stick with the hand polished surface? _
Just the basic polished surface. I did have some problems with getting a tight smooth beam with these reflectors; the bulb/filament has to be pretty near pefectly centered. On a somewhat related mod I solved this beam issue by using a frosted bulb. It really made a wonderfully smooth light while still having a nice bright hotspot. The mod was a 3D Maglite, 12V 20W Halogen bipin bulb, Carley 912 PR socket for G4 base, and 2 rows of 5 123s.
_... how much was the 1940?_
I honestly don't remember. I purchased 3 of these reflectors a long time ago. I'll check my POs and post the price later for that and all the bulbs I've purchased in the past.

Aloha


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## PaulW (May 22, 2003)

As soon as I saw soloco's first post, I knew there were questions I had to ask. But Wilkey beat me to it. Said just about what I wanted to.

Thanks for typing it for me, Wilkey. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Paul

P.S. I just discovered something while trying to figure out how the Carley spacers might help position the bulb in the reflector. (Thirteen of them add up to 1/8 inch thickness.) 
As it turns out the inner diameter of these little washers is smaller than the metal base. They're meant to be slid over the glass envelope. But that ain't the way the Mag is built. Inserting spacers would not affect how the bulb is seated. I wonder if Carley has spacers that slide over the metal base?


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## Ginseng (May 22, 2003)

I didn't realize that the spacers fit on the envelope side of the bulb. Of course I looked back at the Carley page I printed out and there it is. A picture with the spacers on the glass side of the PR lamp. Doh! I guess it's back to Home Depot again to look through their washer drawers. I have this love-hate relationship with that place. I love 'em because I bought my purple 2C there but I hate em' cause they keep taking my money.

If I were to guess, a neighborhood hardware shop might stand a good chance of having a decent washer selection. Do you think it might be feasible to cut open one of the spacers and spread it so it fits around the metal base?

Now, here's an even more radical ideal...what if instead of stacking fixed washers under the PR flange, we use a small metal spring? I don't now if this is feasible but it might have benefits.

There is one problem though, the metal plunger inside the lamp pedestal only goes up so far. I looked at a 3D I have apart and it looks like you can only lift the bulb about 1.2 mm before it loses contact with the plunger that touches the center contact of the PR base. So, you couldn't stack much behind the bulb anyway.

Ok, I'm going to bed. I'm spending way too much time thinking about this stuff. 

Soloco,
One more question if I may. What is the outside diameter of the stub behind the 1940 reflector? The ream is 0.377" but I'm wondering what the wall thickness of the stub is.

Wilkey


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (May 22, 2003)

Oh dear! 

Okay, try to figure me for 2 809s PR Potted (as I stated in an earlier post), and a 1940 reflector (to toy with). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## TOB9595 (May 23, 2003)

Boy O Boy!
2- 809
2- 762
I'm not sure how the 762 comes but I want them to be pr, potted if need be.
Thanks for the immense info.
Tom


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## Ginseng (May 23, 2003)

The 762 is a T2.5 bipin base like the 809. It would have to be potted.

Wilkey


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## TOB9595 (May 23, 2003)

Thanks Wilkey,
Potted it is. I believe I saw enough to make the minimums on these.
Tom


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## Ginseng (May 27, 2003)

Here is the bulb count so far as of 5:04 PM 5/28/03

User________809_762_612p_717p_999_805_1057_1940
TOB9595_____2___2___________________________1
PBJoeShm____2_______________________________1
Illuminated
Elnath_______3________2____2____2
PaulW_______2____2_________________2________1
Ginseng______3_____________________3_________1 


_Edited: Paul_W and TOB9595 added 1940 reflector_


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## PaulW (May 27, 2003)

Wilkey,

Thanks for hosting this buy for us. If it's not too late, I'd like to change my order to 2 each of the 809, 762, and 805. 

I'm possibly interested in the 1940 reflector, but I can't find any reference to its price. Do you know what it is?

Paul


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## Ginseng (May 27, 2003)

I just put up the bulb count based on interest already expressed in this thread. It's completely fluid as I have not asked Carley for a quote yet. I was hoping soloco would write back with what he paid but I'll email Patty to get a price.

Wilkey


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## Illuminated (May 27, 2003)

OK, I'm back now...

Wilkey, I'd like the following:

(2) 706 T-1 xenon 
(2) 803 T-1 xenon

I'll take them w/uncut leads if there's a charge for lead cutting.

I wanted to try these against the Nexstar's. That's all I need for now - I still have lamps from my last order.

BTW - Took the 2D Mag w/3 x 1/2D NiCad/805 lamp/UCL lens outside again tonight, and tightly focused - it easily throws 300+ feet (I paced it off...). Not exactly a barn-burner, but *much* better than stock.

Funny thing, though...I am convinced that somehow the Mag-C reflectors are better than the D's. I can't explain why - but they do exhibit a noticeable improvement.

I still have that potted 1057. I'll try it in a 2C w/3 x 123's as soon as I can get it together.

Thanks Wilkey -

John


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## Ginseng (May 27, 2003)

Just checking,

Both the 706 and 803 are sub-3V mini lamps with under 20 spec lumens. You want them non-potted, 1" bare leads.

Hmm, I'd have expected the 805 in a 3x config to be pretty bright. Driven at spec, it's supposed to about as bright as a 7-cell Mag Xenon. About 150 lumens. That should be quite a bit better than even the KPR112 in a 3x123 setup. Gonna go for the 1057 again eh? I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope it doesn't flash /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Wilkey


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## Illuminated (May 28, 2003)

Wilkey,

That's correct on the 706 & 803. If given a choice - I'd prefer non-lens end.

As for the 1057, I ran it for a bit of testing on 6 x 1/2D NiCad - no problems except for reflector heat damage...but that was at around 15.9 watts/450+ lumens (estimated). It was bright - but the TigerLight LA proved to be superior at that voltage/current level.

If not mistaken, the SF P91 draws 2.35 amps at 6.25 volts from 3 x 123's, so I'm guessing that the 1057 would be around 2.1 amps at 6.5 volts - give or take a little. Remember...the 1057's a 200-hour lamp, so it can be pushed a little harder compared to the 20-25 hour life lamps.

It should do fine on 3 x 123's. I'll find out as soon as I can build it...

John


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## Illuminated (May 28, 2003)

BTW - I might be underrating that 805/3-cell NiCad setup a bit - it's really quite nice for a 2D - and probably is brighter than a 6D. I didn't want to exaggerate on this and give anyone a false impression.

It's just hard to call it bright with a Tigerlight in my other hand...ya know what I mean?

John


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## Ginseng (May 28, 2003)

Ok,

I understand now. 

I have a blown TL lamp assembly in my hands now. Been thinking about how to harvest the reflector. Looks like I will have to grind out the ceramic potting, cjip out the bulb and cut the back end of the reflector off with a Dremel cutoff wheel. 

Now if I can just get someone to send me a Magcharger reflector. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If I could get the formula right, I'd love to run a slightly overdriven Welch Allyn 01185 bulb on 4x123 and make 900 lumens. Somehow, I don't think 123's would last long at 9.6V and 3.15A. What's more realistic to do is run their 01125 on 6x123 in my 4C. 20 minutes or better of nearly 600 lumens. Maybe the Carley 1940 reflector will be the ticket to paradise.

Wilkey


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## Illuminated (May 28, 2003)

Wilkey,

I eased my dead TL lamp out by using a small drill bit between my thumb and finger. The potting is fairly soft, and once you make some room by "drilling" alongside the lamp, it'll come out with most of the remaining material.

Hope this helps - John


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## soloco (May 28, 2003)

Okay. Here's all my Carley info. The 1940 has a stub wall thickness of 3/8". The base is 1" in diameter. Here's the costs of everything I've purchased.

912 3.64
712 5.39
713 5.39
714 5.39
715 5.39
716 5.39
717 5.39
1909 6.06
2127 6.06
999 6.16
1940 6.43
1965 1.2

I hope that helps you guys out.


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## Ginseng (May 28, 2003)

*ALL PARTIES INTERESTED IN THE CARLEY BULBS DESCRIBED IN THIS THREAD, PLEASE RE-CONFIRM YOUR BULB COUNT ONCE I HAVE POSTED PRICE QUOTES FROM CARLEY.*

John,

Did you drill from the pin side or the bulb side? I would think it'd be much safer to drill from the pin side. I'm a bit of a spastic butterfingers so that would be the best be for me. Did you keep the whole stub end intact? if you do, it looks like a regular flashlight bulb will not fit through the channel, however, a narrow lensed-end bulb will. I think.

Soloco, 

Thanks a bunch for all the information. Those must be the bare leads pricing (except for the #71_x_)? I appreciate it. So it looks like the #912 PR base adapter and #1940 collimating reflector are pretty inexpensive. Shwing!

Paul_W,

Should I put you down for a #1904 as well?

Wilkey


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## flashlightlens (May 28, 2003)

Ginseng - When I've removed the bulb from a TL reflector in the past, I just chucked a short drill bit in my Dremel and "poked" away at the pin side. Eventually, you'll remove enough material and the bulb and potting will come loose. Hope this helps!


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## Ginseng (May 28, 2003)

Thanks...Chris? Forgive me, I'm not sure I know your name. I'll give that a try. BTW, can you recommend a way to clean the UCL lens? I've found that the coatings give it sort of a greasy feel that is hard to clean well.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 28, 2003)

Wilkey,

Yes, I would like a 1940 reflector if it's only $6.43 or thereabouts. Seems like a real bargain -- good to have even if I find I can't use it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## soloco (May 28, 2003)

I very highly recommend the Carley reflectors, especially because of the price. They are very solid aluminum with a nice polished finish. On a side note, I spoke to my contact at Carley and he said that they can do frosted bulbs. I'm going to go this way for my project to smooth out my beams. Some of you might want to try this as well. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the results.


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## PaulW (May 28, 2003)

soloco: a great option.

Frosted bulbs are a neat idea, but they might end up giving us less throw. I'd be willing to experiment -- to get half my bulbs clear and half frosted.

However, the problem is that it makes a bookkeeping headache for Wilkey. It would be perfectly reasonable for him to say he prefers not to do this.


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## flashlightlens (May 28, 2003)

Ginseng - I like the Sima Lens Pen for lens cleaning. I use it exclusively for my photo and video products and the soft brush is excellent for cleaning reflectors. I had a few to sell a while back and might get some more in the future.


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## soloco (May 28, 2003)

That's true. If throw is the goal, then frosted is out. For everyday use though, I use my frosted bulbs. That way I don't have to mess with trying to texture my own reflectors.


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## Ginseng (May 28, 2003)

There just aren't enough participants and bulb volume to go after frosted variants. Although if there is enough interest, I'm not averse to handing over the reins. 

I've emailed Patty for a quote. I'll post as soon as I get some info.

Wilkey


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## TOB9595 (May 28, 2003)

Wilkey, please add a reflector to my wish list if there's still time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 
Thank you for handling the group buy
Tom


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## Ginseng (May 28, 2003)

Tom,

I've added a reflector to your count.

Wilkey


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## Ginseng (May 28, 2003)

Here is the bulb count so far as of 5:04 PM 5/28/03

User________809_762_612p_717p_999_805_1057_1940
TOB9595_____2___2___________________________1
PBJoeShm____2_______________________________1
Illuminated_____(2x706, 2x803 bare leads)
Elnath_______3________2____2____2
PaulW_______2____2_________________2________1
Ginseng______3_____________________3_________1 


_Edited: Paul_W and TOB9595 added 1940 reflector, Illuminated's bulb pics_


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## Ginseng (May 28, 2003)

Guys,

Here is the pricing I just received from Pat at Carley. The #912 is a bipin adapter for use with bare lead bulbs but is only recommended up to about 1.1 to 1.2 amps. These babies aren't cheap, but the first time I whip out my 2C and blast out a laser sharp beam from a 300+ lumen lamp...I suspect I'll consider it worth it. Just a note, this level of light output would put it in the theoretical range of a "Y" flux bin 5W LS. Considering that the highest I've seen is a "W" and the "X" is still as rare as unicorn nuts, this gives you an idea of the class of light output we're talking about.

CL 809 - $7.89 each
CL 762 - $7.89 each
CL 612 - $3.11 each
CL 717 - $5.39 each
CL 999 - $7.89 each
CL 805 - $7.89 each
CL 1057 - $6.16 each

RF# 1940 - $6.43 each
CL 706 - $5.41 each
CL 803 - $5.41 each
CL 912 - $3.64 each

Please confirm your interest and bulb quantities by 5:00 PM Thursday, May 29. PM me if you are unable to do so. I am thinking about adding a flat rate of $4.00 delivered to your door. This would include the shipping from Carley and my repacking and shipping to you. If you would like to pay by PayPal, I'm afraid I'm going to ask you to cover the 3% fee since I am not the vendor, just the middleman. I will also accept US Postal or bank money orders. I'm not looking to make a penny, just not lose money.

Wilkey


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## TOB9595 (May 28, 2003)

OK since I'm the most lame here let me ask an embarrassing question.
Do we need to get the 912 bi pin adapter because the bulbs are not pr base or potted for pr base?
Is the 912 needed for all the above referenced bulbs?
Probably just the ones I want /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 809 and 762. of course the most expensive bulbs also. Sigh.
Well it's for a good cause. As someone had or has in their sig. "I want to see the dark"
Tom


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## Illuminated (May 28, 2003)

Wilkey,

I confirm your listing for my lamps and cost. I have no problem with covering the 3% PayPal fees - fair is fair. when would you prefer payment?

BTW - Thanks for going to all this trouble for us...

As far as removing the lamp from the TL reflector - I pretty much did what Chris described - working from the pin side with the reflector down. Just go easy - it's not really too difficult. Afterwards, I carefully filed-down the stub tube with a regular flat file and kept testing in the light until I got what I thought was good. The alum is pretty soft and files easily.

Later - John


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## Illuminated (May 28, 2003)

Forgot to mention that I've frosted my own bulbs (no jokes, please!) using a sandblast cabinet. I didn't like the lense-end lamp I had, so I masked it off and just lightly frosted the tip.

I also experimented with some others and found that it does reduce light output some, and the degree of etching makes a difference. This type of etching may produce different results than Carleys' process - I don't really know. Say...doesn't the A2 lamp have a frosted tip?

Bye - John


----------



## Elnath (May 28, 2003)

wow...a bit more than I was thinking, but I'm only going to wuss out a bit...

Final answer:
3x809
2x999
2x717

$4.00 is fine, I'll paypal (+3%) when you are ready.

Thanks for setting this up!


----------



## Ginseng (May 28, 2003)

Tom,

You don't need the #912 adaptor because the plan was to get the bulbs ceramic potted. That way, they can go anywhere you want. And potting, included in the costs of the bulbs as detailed above, is cheaper than the adaptor unless you want to use just one adaptor with a whole different bunch of bulbs. In other words, with the #912, you could use bare lead bipin bulbs from Carley or Welch Allyn or whomever makes this size. The potting is the cleaner solution. Does that help? I just added it in case anyone wanted one for their own experimentation.

John,
Let me post an update once I get the list together and then I'll ask you all to send funds. Another way to frost bulbs would be to paint on a little of the etching solution glass crafters use to etch patterns in glass. It's hydrofluoric acid and so pretty dangerous, but potentially less physically stressful than a media blast. To control the beam quality, I plan on using the Surefire FM24 holographic dispersion beam shaper. It's a tip up filter that fits (with a spacer) onto the head of a Mag and allows one to go from full spot to a uniform flood quickly. I use the F04's on my Minimags and the FM34 on my 9P and love them.

Wilkey


----------



## Ginseng (May 28, 2003)

Here is the bulb count so far as of 10:56 PM 5/28/03

User________809_762_612p_717p_999_805_1057_1940
TOB9595_____2___2___________________________1
PBJoeShm____2_______________________________1
_Illuminated_____(2x706, 2x803 bare leads)_
_Elnath_______3_____________2____2_
PaulW_______2____2_________________2________1
_Ginseng______3_____________________3_________1_

Italicized CPF members have confirmed their bulb counts.

Wilkey


----------



## TOB9595 (May 28, 2003)

Thank you, My count is good to go
Tom


----------



## Sproing (May 29, 2003)

If its not too late to join in this buy, I'd like a couple.

I want:

2x 809
2x 805
1x 1940

Thanks!


----------



## PaulW (May 29, 2003)

Wilkey,

The bulb count is correct for my part of the order, but please see my e-mail.

Paul


----------



## Ginseng (May 29, 2003)

Here is the bulb count so far as of 9:10 AM 5/29/03

User________809_762_612p_717p_999_805_1057_1940
_TOB9595_____2___2___________________________1_
PBJoeShm____2_______________________________1
_Illuminated_____(2x706, 2x803 bare leads)_
_Elnath_______3_____________2____2_
PaulW_______2____2_________________2________1
_Ginseng______3_____________________3_________1_
_Sproing______2_____________________2_________1_

Italicized CPF members have confirmed their bulb counts.

Wilkey 

_Edit: added Sproing to the buy list._


----------



## PaulW (May 29, 2003)

Wilkey,

I'm ready to paypal when you're ready to receive.

Paul


----------



## Ginseng (May 29, 2003)

Here is the bulb count so far as of 11:30 AM 5/29/03

User________809_762_612p_717p_999_805_1057_1940
_TOB9595_____2___2___________________________1_
PBJoeShm____2_______________________________1
_Illuminated_____(2x706, 2x803 bare leads)_
_Elnath_______3_____________2____2_
_PaulW_______2____2_________________2________1_
_Ginseng______3_____________________3_________2_
_Sproing______2_____________________2_________1_

Italicized CPF members have confirmed their bulb counts.

Here are the running totals for each CPF member:

*Member________Bulbs______PayPal______Shipping_____Total*
TOB9595_________37.99_______1.14__________4.00_________43.13
PlayboyJoeShmo__22.21_____________________4.00_________26.21
Illuminated_______21.64_______0.65__________4.00_________26.29
Elnath___________50.23_______1.51__________4.00_________55.74
PaulW___________53.77_______1.61__________4.00_________59.38
Ginseng__________52.31_________________________________52.31
Sproing__________37.99_______1.14__________4.00_________43.13

*Total Merchandise Value: $276.14*

Wilkey 

_Edit: Confirmed Paul_W_


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (May 29, 2003)

Confirm!

I can actually afford $26.21!!!!!


----------



## Ginseng (May 29, 2003)

Here is the final bulb count as of 4:43 PM 5/29/03

User________809_762_612p_717p_999_805_1057_1940
_TOB9595_____2___2___________________________1_
_PBJoeShm____2_______________________________1_
_Illuminated_____(2x706, 2x803 bare leads)_
_Elnath_______3_____________2____2_
_PaulW_______2____2_________________2________1_
_Ginseng______3_____________________3_________2_
_Sproing______2_____________________2_________1_

All CPF members have confirmed their bulb counts.

Here are the final totals for each CPF member:

*Member________Bulbs______PayPal______Shipping_____Total*
TOB9595_________37.99_______1.14__________4.00_________43.13
PlayboyJoeShmo__22.21_____________________4.00_________26.21
Illuminated_______21.64_______0.65__________4.00_________26.29
Elnath___________50.23_______1.51__________4.00_________55.74
PaulW___________53.77_______1.61__________4.00_________59.38
Ginseng__________52.31_________________________________52.31
Sproing__________37.99_______1.14__________4.00_________43.13

*Total Merchandise Value: $276.14*

*Instructions for payment and ordering*
Please transfer the indicate "Total" amount to my Paypal account, [email protected], by end of business Friday, May 30 to lock in your order. If you wish to pay via money order, you may leave out the PayPal 3% fee. At that time, I will call Patty at Carley and place the order. I've been advised that all items are in stock but the potting could take over a week.

Wilkey 

_Edit: Confirmed PlayboyJoeShmo, finalized all counts and prices_


----------



## hideo (May 29, 2003)

Ginseng--

I just PMed you with an addition to the group buy if it's not too late--sorry for the last minute, but had to check the finances

thanks

hideo


----------



## Ginseng (May 29, 2003)

Here is the updated bulb count as of 7:59 PM 5/29/03

User________809_762_612p_717p_999_805_1057_1940
_TOB9595_____2___2___________________________1_
_PBJoeShm____2_______________________________1_
_Illuminated_____(2x706, 2x803 bare leads)_
_Elnath_______3_____________2____2_
_PaulW_______2____2_________________2________1_
_Ginseng______3____________1________2_________2_
_Sproing______2_____________________2_________1_
Hideo_______1________3____2________1____1____1

Italicized CPF members have confirmed their bulb counts.

Here are the running totals for each CPF member:

*Member________Bulbs______PayPal______Shipping_____Total*
TOB9595_________37.99_______1.14__________4.00_________43.13 *PAID*
PlayboyJoeShmo__22.21_____________________4.00_________26.21
Illuminated_______21.64_______0.65__________4.00_________26.29
Elnath___________50.23_______1.51__________4.00_________55.74
PaulW___________53.77_______1.61__________4.00_________59.38
Ginseng__________57.70_________________________________57.70 *PAID*
Sproing__________37.99_______1.14__________4.00_________43.13
Hideo___________48.48_______1.45__________4.00__________53.93

*Total Merchandise Value: $342.33*

*Instructions for payment and ordering*
Please transfer the indicate "Total" amount to my Paypal account, [email protected], by end of business Friday, May 30 to lock in your order. If you wish to pay via money order, you may leave out the PayPal 3% fee. At that time, I will call Patty at Carley and place the order. I've been advised that all items are in stock but the potting could take over a week.

Wilkey 

_Edit: Added Hideo, marked TOB9595 as paid in full, Ginseng removed one 805 and added one 717p_


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## TOB9595 (May 29, 2003)

Paypal sent
Thanks again
A WONDERFUL POST /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Tom


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (May 29, 2003)

Of course either through Email or PM I WILL need to know where to SEND Money Order....

Sounds GREAT!


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## PaulW (May 30, 2003)

Paypal sent -- $59.38


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## hideo (May 30, 2003)

peanut butter and crackers next week ... Paypal sent

hideo


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## Sproing (May 30, 2003)

Paypal sent.
Thanks for putting this together!


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## Ginseng (May 30, 2003)

*This Carley Bulb Group Buy is Now Closed*

*THIS GROUP BUY IS NOW CLOSED*
Here is the final bulb count as of 9:47 AM, Friday, 5/30/03
All participating CPF members have confirmed their bulb counts.

User________809_762_612p_717p_999_805_1057_1940
_TOB9595_____2___2___________________________1_
_PBJoeShm____2_______________________________1_
_Illuminated_____(2x706, 2x803 bare leads)_
_Elnath_______3_____________2____2_
_PaulW_______2____2_________________2________1_
_Ginseng______3____________1________2_________2_
_Sproing______2_____________________2_________1_
_Hideo_______1________3____2________1____1____1_

Here are the final totals for each CPF member:
*Member________Bulbs______PayPal______Shipping_____Total*
TOB9595_________37.99_______1.14__________4.00_________43.13 *PAID*
PlayboyJoeShmo__22.21_____________________4.00_________26.21 *Money Order*
Illuminated_______21.64_______0.65__________4.00_________26.29 *PAID*
Elnath___________50.23_______1.51__________4.00_________55.74 *PAID*
PaulW___________53.77_______1.61__________4.00_________59.38 *PAID*
Ginseng__________57.70_________________________________57.70 *PAID*
Sproing__________37.99_______1.14__________4.00_________43.13 *PAID*
Hideo___________48.48_______1.45__________4.00__________53.93 *PAID*

*Total Merchandise Value: $330.01*

*Instructions for payment and ordering*
Please transfer the indicate "Total" amount to my Paypal account, [email protected], by end of business Friday, May 30 to lock in your order. If you wish to pay via money order, you may leave out the PayPal 3% fee. At that time, I will call Patty at Carley and place the order. I've been advised that all items are in stock but the potting could take over a week.

Wilkey 

_Edit: Elnath as Paid_


----------



## Ginseng (May 30, 2003)

*Re: This Carley Bulb Group Buy is Now Closed*

I have emailed Patty at Carley and placed the order. I hope to be able to advise on delivery date sometime this evening (they are in California). 

Just one last thing...

Ohboyohboyohboy! Can't wait for the fun to begin!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Ok, so who's in for a Welch Allyn group buy? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif How does 850 lumens at 10V 3.15A sound /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


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## PaulW (May 30, 2003)

*Re: This Carley Bulb Group Buy is Now Closed*

But, but, but . . . .

I don't have anything to put a 31 Watt bulb into. That would melt my Mag in about 4.7 seconds. Maybe I missed some earlier posts.

Oh Wilkey. I get it. Sometimes I get too serious. I'm thinkin you're funnin us. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

BTW, that's good news about getting the order out. Maybe they'll work on the weekend for us, huh?


----------



## Ginseng (May 30, 2003)

*Re: This Carley Bulb Group Buy is Now Closed*

Funnin' you guys? Never! 

The Welch Allyn bulb #1185 is rated to make 817 lumens at 9.6V and 3.15A. I figure a 3D or 4D body, direct wiring from the switch to a jury rigged bulb holder and a Makita 9.6V stick nicad battery pack. Of course, you could go the way of an MR16 like soloco did. Mmmm, 1500 lumens. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Alternatively, the WA 1125 puts out a leisurely 553 lumens at 14V and 1.79A. That might actually be doable in a 5+ configuration in a Mag 3C. 

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 30, 2003)

*Re: This Carley Bulb Group Buy is Now Closed*

Oh, I see now. You must be already thinking about using the Carley aluminum reflector. Making _these_ bulbs work is something that I *really* want to hear about. If you can figure out how to do that in a Mag you'll be a minor superhero. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## Ginseng (May 30, 2003)

Darn it all!

I just called Carley to pay for the order and found out that they are only open 'til 11AM PDT on Fridays. Ugh. I'll call first thing on Monday. Sorry guys.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (May 30, 2003)

Thanks for the update. I can wait. And I suspect Carley would only have laughed had you suggested they work on our order over the weekend. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (May 30, 2003)

That's cool Wilkey!

You can't possibly see my money order before Tuesday or Wednesday anyway.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 1, 2003)

Update Wilkey!

Got the Money Order just now. Just filling it out and stuffing it in an envelope for going out in the Monday mail.

So you will probably see it Thursday or Friday.

I'm very much looking forward to a VERY bright 3C M*g!!!


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## Ginseng (Jun 1, 2003)

Sounds good Joe. I'll be calling in the order tomorrow afternoon. 

I've been playing with my 3C with overdriven KPR112 and am wondering how a lamp with 3X the light output is going to look /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wilkey


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## Illuminated (Jun 2, 2003)

Wilkey,

Did you get my PayPal last week? Initials on account name "CW" - the wife's. Last name "as in marriage".

John


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## Ginseng (Jun 2, 2003)

John,

I got your PayPal last week. In fact, I updated one of my postings on page 10 of this thread to reflect that. All participants are paid up. 

Everyone,

I spoke with Patty this afternoon and the bulbs are all paid for. I'm waiting for an email back as to when all the items will be pulled together. When they're ready, they'll be coming to me via 3-day air and then I'll repack and get them out to you guys. As I understand it, quite a few of the bulbs were pre-potted _in anticipation of_ this group buy. I guess it was a good thing that I gave her a heads up even before the totals were finalized. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif She sounded pretty pleased about the order and looks forward to further opportunities to help out the members of the CPF community.

I will be back to post an update when I get an ETA from Patty. Oh, and she'll be providing plenty of stainless steel spacer rings for us to play with. I don't know exactly how many, but enough to experiment. 

Wilkey


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## Ginseng (Jun 2, 2003)

Paul,

I got your mailing. Thanks /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif They look absolutely perfect.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (Jun 2, 2003)

Wonderful. I hope the springs work for you.

If they work for you, they work for me. And then I can tell the other tailcap buyers their dimensions. In fact, since you have a camera, you could add a picture.


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## hideo (Jun 2, 2003)

psyched--just canked the bulb socket from an old folding sylvania flashbulb holder and am eyeing the battery packs for my Porter Cable 19.2 V cordless tools with a critical eye . . .

W-A 31 watts you say?

hideo


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## Ginseng (Jun 2, 2003)

Oh yeah!

I fact, I found a G4 bi-pin bulb socket that should take over 3.5 amps at 14V (50W!) so for the super-high output lamps like the 01185, it's suitable. Can you imagine over 1,100 lumens overdriven at 10.5V and 3.5A? The nice thing about this socket is I think it can be manipulated via a simple setup to fit right over the top of the Mag lamp holder post. We're talking direct wired to the switch. At this point, the battery pack becomes the main limitation...assuming the switch does not go up in a puff of smoke. I'm thinking the 01318 bulb (9.6V 1.93A 534 lu) is the max we can run on 4x123. It's a shame they don't make a 10V 2.3A bulb. I'm estimating something like that would make over 700 lumens on 4x123!! Of course, the 1940 aluminum reflector would be an absolute must. I'm hoping someone will discover the correct specification for milling out the back of the stub on the 1940 to make this work. I think Lemlux was blazing this particular trail.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (Jun 3, 2003)

Wilkey,

After reading about all those lumens, you may not be interested in this less-bright topic anymore, but here goes anyway. It applies to all who ordered Carley 805 bulbs -- you, Sproing, and me.

Earlier in this thread we talked about using a Carley 805 with 3Cs or 3Ds. I told you that my experiments indicated that the amount of overdrive would be 9% or 20%, respectively. I may have to eat those words because of something electrolumens said about his Triple-30 project, namely that the max current capacity of the D cells is 1.5A. If true, we may find that 3D is better than 3C for the 805 (which requires 1.6 A to attain rated voltage). 

I only now read your post about your interaction with Carley. (Funny how I missed that before.) Thanks for being our spokesman. I'm sure it'll make future interaction with them easier for both us CPFers and them.

Paul


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## Darkcobra (Jun 3, 2003)

Wow, I've pretty much read the entire thread! Though not all of it sunk in /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif
I was wondering if you guys could help me out with your findings? Using a Mag 2C with 3X123's.
Which Carley bulb would give me the brightest output (Safely, without the risk of flashbulbing with new batteries)? Runtime is sort of irrelevant to me at this point, I just want bright. Any quick tips and info would be greatly appreciated. I don't mean to insult you guys asking for a quick tip/summary after you guys have the done all the leg work, this newbie is appreciative of any help that he can get /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks!
Joel 

Sorry, I guessed I missed it? Ginseng already has the table for best results with 3x123's:
For 3xSF123 Configuration
716PR___129 lumens ++ (recommended)
717PR___178 lumens -- (recommended)
1057____239 lumens +++
611_____151 lumens ++++
612_____182 lumens ++++
808_____289 lumens ----
Price (Group buy is over, but just to give an idea of cost for others):
CL 809 - $7.89 each
CL 762 - $7.89 each
CL 612 - $3.11 each
CL 717 - $5.39 each
CL 999 - $7.89 each
CL 805 - $7.89 each
CL 1057 - $6.16 each


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## PaulW (Jun 3, 2003)

Darkcobra,

Welcome to the party. We've been having a lot of fun with this, as you have been discovering. If you want a 3 x 123 configuration, you're pretty much stuck with what Wilkey recommends -- the 716PR with 9% overdrive, or the PR717 with 9% underdrive.

My personal opinion is that a little bit of overdrive is okay, and 9% is as much as you should go. Underdrive will result in yellowing early. BTW, zero overdrive means that the bulb is projected to be driven at exactly the rated voltage when the 123s are *new*. So, it's only in the first minute or so that there is a lot of risk.

I didn't like any of the 3x123 configurations and opted for myself to try three others, as I wrote here:

---------------------------------------------------
Re: 285 Lumen Mag 2C
#243906 - 05/22/03 11:55 AM 
I have been thinking about the costs of using some of the configurations we've been discussing here. Shown below are the characteristics that help determine the different uses that each configuration would be best for. The lower wattage with longer life would be a good around-the-house flashlight, while the higher wattage with shorter life would be the choice for a glove-compartment super-bright flashlight to use for short durations to avoid reflector melting.
Bulb _________ 805 _____ 762 _____ 809
Host ________ Mag 3C ___Mag 3C __ Mag 2C
Battery ______ 3xC _____ 5x123 ___ 4x123
Watts ________ 6.4 _____ 9.1 ______ 13.1
Drive Level ___ +9% ____ +5% _____ +4% voltage overdrive
Est Bat Life ____ 3.5 _____ 2.4 ______ 1.1 hours
Watt-hours ____ 22 ______ 22 _______ 14
Batt Cost ____ $2.25 ____ $6.25 ____ $5.00
Cost/hr. _____ $0.64 ____ $2.60 ____ $4.54
--------------------------------------------

I have since come to believe that the drive for the 3 x C will be much less than shown in the chart. The 5 x 123 and the 4 x 123 are still very appealing to me. The latter is a very tight fit in the host, but the former is quite comfortable with just a clip of the tail spring. 

Perhaps some of the rest of this group will have some other thoughts you will find useful.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 3, 2003)

3 x 123A driving a KPR112 or M*g 5 cell bulb and with Writeright is a pretty awesome light! I have had decent bulb life and they are commonly available and don't cost too much!

I got in on the group buy for a 4 x 123A blinder! (Carley 809) But the 3 ain't bad!


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## PaulW (Jun 3, 2003)

Playboy,

I forgot about the KPR112. Thanks. I tried it and took some measurements. It gives out 12700 lux, about twice that of the Space Needle II. That's due to its narrower beam. In terms of overall light, it's about 3/4 as much as the SN2 -- ,my guess is 100 lumens. It's great for a $25 light, and the bulbs are at Radio Shack.


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## lemlux (Jun 3, 2003)

Those of you who have purchased Carley #912 PR base sockets can also play with W/A bulbs in your mods.

My current 3 * 123 favorite is the W/A 01315 which is rated at 6.27 V 1.42 A 178 lumen and 125 hours. I interpolate from Brock's and W/A's tables that it probably draws about 6.90 v and 1.50 A at which power it delivers about 249 Lu and a 40 hour life. This is considerably gentler overdriving of this bulb than its initial claim to fame in a DB4AA with 3 * 2 123's in serial, parallel. We'll see how long it takes me to melt one of my 912 sockets at 1.50 Amps. (The trick to focusing W/A bulbs in 912 adapters in Mag Lights is to drill a small center hole in the adapter to accept the conical glass tail of the W/A bulbs between the Bi-Pins.) 

The main drawback of the bulb is that it has a lensed tip that focuses and projects a sausage-shaped beam with ziz-zag "grin" impressions of the filament. (This "grin-wurst" artifact would otherwise be dissipated as outermost sidespill.)

It's also a favorite because it provides greater battery life and longer expected bulb life than using the 6.0 V 1.70 A Carley 20 hour 851 bulb. The 851 beam is prettier, though, in that it doesn't come with a grin-wurst. 

I'm almost through procasticanating and will soon ask Carley to ceramically pot a few W/A 01148 bulbs. This 6.30 V 1.95 A 264 Lu 140 hour bulb life rating will probably put out about 6.70 V 2.01 A 324 Lumen and 70 hour bulb life when powered by a pair of 17 mm diameter 68 mm long Pila 1400 mAh li-Ions. The 01148 W/A bulb is longer than most of their T 2 1/4 bulbs, so I will probably use it in a 2C 2D, or 3C Mag or Nordic light that has a bored-out Carley or SF reflector epoxied to the PR bulb retainer ring.

In fact, I am very close to asking Carley to ceramically pot (at $1.65 per bulb) several of the following W/A bulbs I've been sitting on:

01319 rated 4.80 V 1.92 A 204 Lu 35 hours.
(Now Used in my UKE 4D as low beam)
01183 rated 4.70 V 3.85 A 411 Lu 75 hours
(Now Used in my UKE 4D as high beam)
01160 rated 5.00 V 3.45 A 327 Lu 500 hours
rerated 5.50 V 3.64 A 456 Lu 175 hours
(Now Used in my Mag Charger with 1/2 D Powerstream Cells and in a modded SL-35X LA with my SL-35X)

01274 rated 7.20 V 2.77 A 553 Lu 40 hours
(I'm delinquent in doing two of these for Mr. Bulk and may do some for myself. I plan on overdriving this bulb with 7 sub C's in a Nordic 3C extended with a second Nordic 3C body and a Carley aluminum reflector.)


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## Ginseng (Jun 3, 2003)

Hi Paul,

I had planned to use the 805 with my 3D Mags. I've just got a bunch of those lying around. As for the 3C body, Carley doesn't have a compelling 5x123 bulb. The 762 will make maybe 190 lumens on 5x in that body for a nice long bulb life. I picked the 999 to run 5x highly overdriven at around 230 lumens or more. Of course, it might flash. I picked up a 717 as my 3x/4x swing bulb. 

DarkCobra,
The KPR112 is a five-cell krypton bulb and it is pretty pushed by 3x123 but seems to be holding up well to intermittent use in my 2C. It is pretty darn near to my 5W LS driven by 6AA NiMHs so I can only imagine the fun to be had with the 809. In fact, it is the only bulb combo I've got on hand that makes a bright enough spill corona to work with. The 3D mags certainly do not. I have to agree with PlayboyJoeShmoe, the KPR112 in a 2C 3x123 is most definitely a nice combo, and cheap too! I pay $1.89 per bulb at Radio Shack.

Lemlux,
Well, he's in another league. I'm happy enough to be clutching $50 worth of bulbs that'll run on regular CR123s. Ah well, The real trick that's going to break this wide open is finding out the proper machining for the Carley #1940 reflector. That opens things up for us duffers.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (Jun 3, 2003)

Wilkey,

I agree about lemlux. He knows more about this than I'll ever be able to comprehend. After reading his post, I have to admit that I'm not knowledgable enough to even comment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Lemlux,

Keep posting. Even if I can't use your arcane ideas, I can at least learn a little here and there. And, you are the creator of this thread. That "full circle" thing is satisfying.

Paul


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## Ginseng (Jun 3, 2003)

Update,

I spoke with Patty and a few bulbs _will_ have to be hand potted. She thinks they will ship to me either this Friday or next Monday. Figure three days to get to me and then another day to get it back out in the mail you guys. So, end of next week at the earliest. This means there is still time if any of you want to pick up a #912 PR base adapter to try some of the things that Lemlux is talking about. The WA 01315 is the bulb that I wish Carley offered. 

Wilkey


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## PaulW (Jun 3, 2003)

Sorry Wilkey, I must have become dazed while reading some of the earlier posts. I don't understand what is meant by a #912 PR base adapter. . . . Wait, I just found it in an old post. Wow, there are a lot of them

As I understand it, Carley sells (for $3.64) the 912 to allow use of bi-pin bulbs such as the WA 01315 bulb in a Mag 2C. Am I correct? If so, are you saying that each of us can still order one?

And the WA 01315 . . . my search told me that lemlux's post tonight was the first time that showed up in this thread. It would draw 1.5 A from 3 x 123 at 6.90 volts? (Note that Carley recommends 1.1 to 1.2 A through the 912.) My question here is where do I get the WA 01315 and how much does it cost? If you don't have the answer, I'll search for it, but if you do have it I won't. (I think I'm getting sleepy.)

I do hope I haven't opened the old worm can with all these questions. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif


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## Ginseng (Jun 3, 2003)

WA specs the 01315 at 6.27V, 1.42A. It'll pull a little more from 3x123. I have searched and have not found a place that stocks the WA 01xxx series bulbs. Plenty of places stock their medical bulbs for endoscopes and stuff like that, but no one I can locate stocks their T2.25 G4 bulbs. 

I think $100 minimum order is the only way to go with those guys. Unless Lemlux has a lead. However, based on this Carley GB, there just might be enough interest to support a WA GB. 

I've done a cursory analysis of the WA mini halogen bulbs and aside from the 01171, 01116, 01306, 01191, 01115 and maybe the 01315, I don't see any others that would lend themselves to a 912 PR adapter. If you step up to a potting and aluminum reflector, then a few nice ones pop up (like the 01318 and 01125). If you step up further to high current nicads and aluminum reflectors, then the really good stuff like 01185 becomes accessible. 

How's that?

Wilkey


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## lemlux (Jun 3, 2003)

Paul:

The 01315 may draw too much current through the 912 socket. I will play with one. The most current I've run through a 912 for any time so far is 1.35 amps. This is with a relatively inexpensive $2.17 W/A #01116 6.00 V 1.35 A 163 Lumen 50 hour bulb that I'm driving in a Brinkman 2D light powered by a pair of Lithium 3V 7500 mAh D cells that I've disassembled out of government surplus radio and weather baloon battery packs.)

These D cells are a little too fat for the newer Mag D flashlights, but they fit snugly in the larger ID Brinkmann D light. (The voltage drop with the lithium cells makes the bulb more satisfying in a Brinkmann 3D with two of the lithiums plus a rechargeable 1.2 V D cell. No, nothing leaked or exploded in that configuration.)

The 01315 amd 01148 bulbs are by far the most expensive W/A T-2 1/4 bulbs.

(All prices were effective for my December 2002 buy)

01315 $7.18
01148 $5.76

All other W/A T-2 1/4 bulbs I've bought are between $1.63 @ and $2.17 @.

01307 $1.63
01319 $1.70
01183 $2.11
01116 $2.17
01111 $2.10
01274 $2.12
01278 $2.04
01185 $2.04
01318 $2.12

The other sizes, when potted by Carley, are cheaper than Carley bulbs potted by Carley. 

W/A, as you may know, has a $100 minimum order. I have bulbs sitting around waiting to be potted, etc. from my most recent buy in December because of that minimum.


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## lemlux (Jun 3, 2003)

For those who are following the posts on this thread, I'll tell you what applications I have for the W/A bulbs that I haven't already commented on today.

01307 4.80 V 1.10 A 104 Lumen 20 hours.
(With fresh batteries in a DB8AA this delivers 5.28 V 1.16 A 146 Lumen with a 6 hour expected life. This is considerably brighter than a Surge.)

01278 9.00 V 1.1 A 244 Lumen 25 hours.
(I put 3 @ 123's plus a lithium AA in each side of a DB6AA with this bulb. I figure it draws 9.36 V 1.12 A 279 Lumen with an expected 16 hour bulb life and a run time of about 2.5 hours. this is my preferred long run time DB configuration. Each AA lithium will last twice as long as a 123, so I reuse them with a second load of 123's.)

01171 9.60 V 1.33 A 314 Lumen 30 hours.
(I drive it fairly close to spec in a DB6AA with 4 @ 123's and a 17 mm spacer in each barrell. This has a run time of about 1 3/4 hours, but the wattage is too high for extended runs. -- Mr. Bulk prefers to run the brighter, gigher wattage 01148 combination in a DB4AA with 3 * 2 123's)


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## PaulW (Jun 4, 2003)

Ginseng and Lemlux,

Thanks for all the answers. I know that tomorrow it will have a lot of meaning for me. But it's a lot of information -- more than I can begin to accommodate tonight. However, I do have two questions, one for each of you.

Ginseng - do I have a day or two to request a 912 for $3.64?

Lemlux - what is DB6AA and DB4AA? It's the DB part that mystifies me.


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## Ginseng (Jun 4, 2003)

Paul_W,

You have until Patty calls me back and tells me the order is shipping. I'd say that is Friday to be safe. The "DB" designation refers to a double-barrel battery compartment such as the Underwater Kinetics Sunlight 6, 6C or the Pelican Stealthlite, 4AA.

Wlkey


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## Darkcobra (Jun 4, 2003)

Paul and Ginseng,
Thanks for the info regarding the Radio Shack KPR112. There is no longer a D-celled battery in the house! I love the output out of those bulbs at a very inexpensive price. I was hoping that with the same 2C and 3x123 configuration I would be able to get more output from the Carley lamps... I'm hesitant on stepping up to the 4x123 as it seems battery placement is a bit of work, I'd like the lights to be so simple my wife would be able to dig up some fresh batteries and "easily" replace the batteries. I'm also trying to avoid the use of the 2D, just like the 2C better. I'm hoping that maybe Dspeck or any others out there can make an extension for the 2C to fit 4x123's easier...
I'm still going to get some Carley lights to play with, $50 minimum is steep... I may order and just sell the others in B/S/T.

Thanks!
Joel


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## PaulW (Jun 4, 2003)

Wilkey,

I'll let you know before then. In case I don't get back to you in time, assume I don't want a 912.

I'm going to do some research on this and try to catch up with you and lemlux.

Paul 

P.S. That Underwater Kinetics Sunlight 6, 6C already looks really mean as is. Thanks for the links.


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## Ginseng (Jun 4, 2003)

Darkcobra,

The Carley 716 and 717 should both make at least 30% more output than the KPR112 in a 3x setup. Of course, one under and one over driven. I'm sorry to say that DSpeck is already in the process of making an extended buttcap for the 2C so it can accomodate a fourth CR123. The sorry part comes about because he's making five and only five. They'll be nice too, knurled, O-ringed, HA3 finish and a snug inside bore to hold the fourth battery. Just pop in a small spring like Paul_W was able to find in a hardware store and away you go...4x123 in a 2C body with only 15mm extra length from the custom buttcap. I agree, the 2D is really beefy.

Paul_W,

No problem.

Wilkey


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## lemlux (Jun 4, 2003)

Paul_W

The DB is CPF short hand for "Double Barrelled" and usually refers to the energizer aluminum barrelled double barrelled series. The 6AA and 8AA sized lights have AA battery caddies that slide in and out of A (read CR123 sized) aluminum chambers. This is part of what makes the lights interesting.

Each of these lights is designed in a serial / parallel configuration to reduce issues of alkaline battery internal resistance.


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## PaulW (Jun 4, 2003)

Darkcobra,

Glad you're having fun with these mods. I understand the concern of how easily a mod can be operated and maintained by a non-flashaholic. The 4x123 with 809 does not fit the profile. But it is bright.

In case you're tempted, earlier in this thread there is talk of a tail cap extension that DSpeck is making for us. Unfortunately, he already has as many orders as he can handle. But who knows what arrangement he might be willing to engage in? You'll find more info here. 

Paul


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## PaulW (Jun 4, 2003)

Wow. We're all talking at once. 

Added later:
Or is it that we all finally got out of bed at the same time? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## lemlux (Jun 4, 2003)

I have determined that the bored out 2" Carley reflectors do fit into the Mag D and C heads. The inside reflecting surface is equivalent to the Mag surface but the aluminum is thicker. This makes the Carley reflector nestle into the narrowest Mag head inner cylinder a little farther forward than the Mag reflector. The net result is that the bezel can only be partly screwed down to within about 3 mm of its normal position.

The Carley 1940 reflector focuses at least as tightly well with standard filament height bulb as does the Mag reflector. It will remain to be seen if some of the taller filament height lamps will focus well without doing something to force the bulb piston downward without the Mag reflector's bottom cam. I'm encouraged, but this solution would appear to be less water resistant than stock at the bezel - head junction.

Hopefully the 3" reflector will also nestle into the head in a satisfactory orientation. If so, I can epoxy the reflector into the head and permanently epoxy a 3" lens to the front of the reflector. I'll report after the 3" reflector is returned to me. I'm hoping that the focus will be even tighter for a longer throw.


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## Ginseng (Jun 4, 2003)

Dremel! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Could you give us the specs on the RF1940 mill down, Lemlux?

Wilkey


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## lemlux (Jun 4, 2003)

If you look at the Carley drawings the 2" reflector has a straight conical outside edge with a a slight cylindrical lip at the top. The 3" reflector has a parabolic outside.

The only mod I've done is to bore out the internal ream hole to 3/4" which allows it fo envelop the Mag ring retainer, the Nordic ring retainer, and the W/A ceramic pig tail socket. If you only intend to use it on Mags, you only need to open the reflector up to something like 11/16".


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## Darkcobra (Jun 4, 2003)

Well, I've re-encarnated (sp?) the mag extension thread in the hopes that someone else out there might be willing to make another "small" production run. I'm not holding my breath though.
For the time being I may make the order for Carley 716, 717 and possbily some 809's if an extension comes into my future /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

Thanks again for all the info.


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## PaulW (Jun 4, 2003)

Darkcobra,

Good luck on the modded tailcap reincarnation. Maybe someone will have mercy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif However, the 4x123 configuration is quite possible without the modded tailcap. It's explained way earlier in this 285 thread, in fact I think near the beginning. It requires some scraping of the anodizing off the threads and such. There's a lot of interchange about various ways to do it. I played around with it and was able to get a 4x123 going within about an hour, and I don't have a huge array of tools. Our quest for a modded tailcap is really only an attempt to perfect what we're doing.

Wilkey,

Well, I have taken the time to wind my way through the labyrinthine paths that Welch Allyn calls their web site. Thanks to you and lemlux for your help in my struggle to understand. I found the places where the good info is. I checked out the list of candidate bulbs you furnished and looked for some of my own as well so that I could enter the candidates on my spread sheet.

I have found three WA bulbs that I might like to have someday: 01315, 01171, and 01314. The last one hasn’t been mentioned by anyone that I can determine. I like the 01314 (10,2 v, 0.98 A) because it’ll give a longer run time than the 01315 (4x123 instead of 3x123), reduces the current thought the 912 adapter, yet is about the same wattage but with a little less overdrive.

So, yes, I would like to get some 912 adapters. I think three is the right amount to get, in case I end up destroying one (or two). Please let me know me the amount to paypal you.

Everyone,

You know, I think the problem I have been having is getting a handle on what has turned out to be a mountain of possibilities. There are too many options in battery configurations, in bulbs, and in housings. Well, I now have all my options on a spreadsheet. That's my way of dealing with it. Now I'm going to decompress for a while. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Paul


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## lemlux (Jun 4, 2003)

Paul_W

A spreadsheet is, indeed, the only way I can really absorb the possibilities.

I find it curious how many mature CPF'ers I've communicated with directly still choose to remain unconversant with spreadsheet software.


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## PaulW (Jun 4, 2003)

I think it's because the first time you use it, it's very difficult.


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## hideo (Jun 4, 2003)

I'm running the KPR 112 and for $1.29, one really can't whine too much--no flashes yet, even with the overvoltage and new Surefire 123s

hideo


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## hideo (Jun 4, 2003)

paulw is right--everyone is on this thread at once ... hence, my slightly dorky attempt at conversation

hideo


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## Illuminated (Jun 4, 2003)

Reflectors in the D-cell Mag heads...I've used one of those swivelling cutter hand-held deburring tools to chamfer the inside opening to allow reflectors to seat deeper and accept the lens ring properly. I did this with my Tigerlight Lamp mod.

If the Carley reflectors you guys are referring to have interference with the metal "shelf" deeper inside the head (D-cell only, C's don't have this), then I think this deburring tool can also chamfer that edge and allow the reflector to seat more deeply.

I didn't have to do any chamfering to get proper fit with the TL LA in a C-cell Mag mod currently in progress (appearing soon - hopefully...) - it seated perfectly without modification to the head.

I bought my tool from Harbor freight years ago, but they're commonly available from most industrial supply houses for less than $10. They're made for hand-deburring holes and such, and work very well on aluminum, and can also be used on steel, plastics, etc.

Happy modding....John


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## lemlux (Jun 4, 2003)

Illuminated:

I think that the interference is actually beneficial because it allows the bulb to focus with a standard PR bulb at a mid point on the head to body threading. This leaves some room for the W/A bulbs with taller filament heights to focus without having the head almost ready to fall off. It would be nice not to have to jury rig a device to compress the bulb cylinder inward.


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## Illuminated (Jun 4, 2003)

Lemlux,

How about replacing the stock cam roller on the side if the bulb cylinder with a socket-head screw and washer to lock it down? It would still be adjustable in height as needed for a given filament center length...

John


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## lemlux (Jun 4, 2003)

Illuminated:

I've never taken the switch / socket assembly apart. I do note that two separate cylinders appear to telescope. Does your suggestion deal with only one of these cylinders or both?

I had also reluctantly contemplated epoxying a pipe extension onto the Carley reflector that would look similar to the cam base of the mag reflector. A replacement set screw might be cleaner.


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## Ginseng (Jun 4, 2003)

Illuminated, 

What you suggested about replacing the cam roller should work. I would probably see if I could find a split ring washer or one of those lockdown washers to get some more grip on the outside of the lamp pedestal. If that doesn't provide the proper adjustment, some of the top of the plastic lamp pedestal itself could be ground off.

Lemlux,

The cam roller screws onto the outer metal sleeve inside the pedestal, the one that the PR base is screwed down against. I have thought about J-B Welding a custom length pipe extension to the back of the Carley, Mag or Tigerlight reflectors. If the bottom end is cut slanted, it should still follow the cam and allow focusing. If the tube is longer that the stock Mag tube, you could get focus with the longer WA bulbs.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (Jun 4, 2003)

Wilkey,

You may have missed my post about the 912 adapters. I'd like two (changed from 3). Tell me how much to paypal to you.

Paul


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## Ginseng (Jun 4, 2003)

Speaking of spreadsheets, I wanted a graphical look at what I perceived to be a hole in the Welch Allyn G4 T2.25 bulb lineup, specifically, the lack of good options for the 3x123 configuration. By this, I mean a bulb that in conjunction with the Carley #912 PR base adapter makes a nice amount of light and falls in the right voltage and current range. Here's a picture of the chart I made. The X-axis is spec voltage, the Y-axis is spec current and the size of the bubble is proportional to the lumens produced. 

The red spot shows the voltage and current range that would be ideal for the range of juice 3x123 provides and where there are no bulbs with this spec range.







Just above the red spot would be the range for a potted bulb. What I really wanted to do was to do a regression for voltage and current to see if I could come up with a formula to custom design a bulb for V and I. Alas, the baby has not been sleeping well and I didn't get back from class until 8:00 PM so I've run out of brain power.

Wilkey


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## Ginseng (Jun 4, 2003)

Paul,

Paypal me another $6.50 for the two #912 adaptors.

Wilkey

The 01314 does look pretty useful.


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## Illuminated (Jun 4, 2003)

Lemlux,

The reflector cam roller is actually a shoulder-screw with the roller on the end, and is threaded into the metal bulb cylinder through the slot in the bulb cylinder guide. The cam roller and bulb cylinder are free to move up and down as there is clearance between the slot and the shoulder of the cam roller screw.

The cam roller screw can be removed using the same size hex wrench as that used for removing the switch from the body. It could be removed without removing the switch if you grind or cut the hex wrench short enough to insert with switch installed.

Remove the cam roller screw and the bulb cylinder assembly slides right out. Inside the metal cylinder is a plastic insert, and inside that there is the hollow metal bulb tip contact. There is also a spring, and a shallow metal spring seat that sits atop the switch.

I've repositioned the tapped hole for the cam roller to allow the use of lamps with longer filament lengths such as the potted 805's. Now the reflector cam pushes the lamp cylinder down far enough to focus properly with the longer bulb. There is a limit, however, to how much farther the bulb cylinder can be pushed down.

If you replaced the cam roller screw (roller/screw is all one assembly) with a short socket-head screw of the same thread size, along with a flat washer, it could be used to tighten against the O.D. of the plastic bulb cylinder guide and lock the cylinder in place. Loosen the screw to reposition the bulb cylinder, then tighten the screw again to lock it. Lamp height adjustment would be trial and error, but you only need to get into the ballpark for the head adjustment to work properly.

Hope all of this makes sense - It's really not as complicated as I probably make it sound.

John


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## PaulW (Jun 4, 2003)

Wilkey,

Paypal sent for 2 of the 912 adapters. Thanks for letting me do this add-on.

Paul


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## lemlux (Jun 4, 2003)

Ginseng and Illuminated:

Thanks for edifying me on the cam roller adjustment potential and technique.

Ginseng:

Your graph showing holes in the ideal lineup of battery bulb combinations is very nice. It shows considerations that I had just juggled mentally.


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## TOB9595 (Jun 4, 2003)

Wilkey, if not too late: I paypal'd for 2 912 adapters. You all have me salivating on WA now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Tom


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## Ginseng (Jun 5, 2003)

TOB9595 and Sproing,

Please send me an additional $1.00 through PayPal if you want the two adaptors. That price was good for Paul_W alone because he bought and sent me some springs so he had a modest amount of credit. Your cost is $3.62 x 2 + $0.22 = $7.50. All other pricing is as outlined in my prior posts.

Patty has OK'd the additions to the order. 

Wilkey


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## TOB9595 (Jun 5, 2003)

Sorry about that Wilkey.
Paypal'd
Tom


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## Sproing (Jun 5, 2003)

Wilkey,

Paypal sent for the extra amount.

Thanks again


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## Ginseng (Jun 5, 2003)

The Mag switch is actually a pretty straighforward design. Its heart is based on the same clickie mechanism as found inside ballpoint pens. There has been some discussion recently about the internals of it but I've found that a picture is worth a thousand words...so here it is. Three pictures follow. 

*Picture 1: Mag Switch Completely Broken Down*
The parts are as follows:
A: Flat contact spring for battery negative - from body to PR retaining ring collar
B: Retaining screw for entire switch assembly, makes switch body-battery negative contact
C: Lamp base plunger for battery positive - direct to switch core
D: Switch body
E: PR base retaining ring, pedestal/collar and insulator
F: Cam follower bolt for focusing
G: Switch core lower body
H: Battery positive switch contacts
I: Battery positive switch contactor (contact with "H" closes the circuit)
J: Switch core upper body







*Picture 2: Mag Switch Partially Assembled*
The switch core with contacts has been assembled but not plugged into the switch core lower part. The PR retainer/pedestal assembly has been assembled but not inserted into the main switch body. I left out the battery negative flat spring because I mangled it screwing around with the bits. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif






*Picture 3: PR Pedestal Range of Adjustment*
I pressed the plunger down with my finger. Total useful range of adjustment is 11.5 mm.






Hope this helps.

Wilkey

Note: TOB9595 and Sproing, I got your additional PayPals, you're all set.


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## PaulW (Jun 5, 2003)

Wilkey,

It sure does help! Your pictures and explanations are great. What helps me especially is to have a name for each of these little components and see what each looks like by itself.

And the exploded views. With this, I might get brave enough to disassemble one of mine. Thanks.

Paul 

P.S. And maybe get capable enough to reassemble it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Illuminated (Jun 5, 2003)

Lemlux,

You're welcome - and thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge here with us.

FWIW - the thread size for the cam follower screw is #4-48, and I used a .092" diameter drill bit for that tap size.

John


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## Ginseng (Jun 5, 2003)

PlayboyJoeShmoe,

Got your money order. You're all set.

Wilkey


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## Ginseng (Jun 6, 2003)

I just spoke with Patty this Friday morning. She expects the bulbs to be finished potting on Monday. If they ship that same day, they'll get to me by Thursday. I plan to get your packages out before the end of the week so that you'll all get them by the following Tuesday, June 17th. I know it seems like a long way off but hang in there. I'm just as anxious as you are.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (Jun 6, 2003)

I had a new thought last night about the Carley 809 bulb mod, although it may be old to others. I believe I can fit all 4 123s into a 2D flashlight, although it's tight and may not work in the cheapie 2Ds. But I'm sure it would work in a Mag 2D. It's not as sleek as the 2C, and the PVC tubing or its tape wrapping might have to be different, but it looks like the fit will be good. And no special tailcap is needed.


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## Darkcobra (Jun 6, 2003)

I was just debating that issue of putting an 809 into a 2D cell as no special tail cap modification would really be needed. I'm just not too happy with the use of a 2D flashlight as non flashaholics automatically think that a D cell flashlight is super bright anyways! Now seeing brightness from a 2C is a whole other issue /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Called Carley today at noon and they are closed! I forgot about reading Ginseng's info about there times of operation. I guess I'll call in next week. If anyone needs a lamp, PM me... I'm not getting any special orders, I'm getting some 716 and 717 for my 3x123 projects. Until I can figure out how to get extended tailcaps I'll hold off on the 809 project.
Have you guys seen this site? Don's bulbs.
http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/b.pl/cl716-carley.html
He supposedly has the Carley 716 for $13.00 each plus $6.00 shipping, no minimums. . . I'd rather get them cheaper through Carley and sell any extras later on. I just thought it was cool that someone might actually stock these bulbs.

Joel


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## PaulW (Jun 6, 2003)

Joel -- Yes, I had visited Don's Bulbs long ago. I had forgotten about him. I remember going there just for the purpose of researching. As I recall, he has a very nice search engine. Now, after all the talk on this thread, I'm going to go back to him later this weekend to see what I can find that's not available at Carley.

Regarding the Mag D bodies. I also discovered that an old aluminum 3D that I have accommodated *123s side-by-side*. I have been puzzling about an adapter to fit in a 2D that would hold six (2x3x123s) or one for the 3D that would hold eight (2x4x123) or ten (2x5x123). That offers a new range of bulbs because the effective battery resistance is lowered.

As an example, I have found one interesting combination using a WA01125 bulb (14.0v, 1.79A). With 5x123, the voltage applied would be about 12.35 volts, a 12 per cent underdrive. But with 2x5x123, the voltage applied would be 13.67 volts, because each cell would be providing only half the current. 

This, BTW, would be a 24-watt configuration and uses the series-parallel idea that the SF M6 does. An adapter with series-series could provide 18, 24, or 30 volts. But we're talking BIG lights. The Mag reflector definitely wouldn't take it. Perhaps other components would fail, too. Remember, it's only an example. The idea is to *get more 123s in a short light*. Six 123s in a 2D appeals to me.

There are two challenges: (1) design the adaptor, and (2) find a host that can handle the load. Regarding the latter, I have looked at some of the chrome plated steel ones from the 40s and 50s being sold on eBay. Not too expensive -- and with metal reflectors, some of which are not tarnished. What prevents me from buying one of the ones in nicer condition is that I suspect the switches are not up to the task and I don't know what kind of bulb socket is used. As I recall, lights of that era used screw-in bases. It might be necessary to redo the socket, requiring a metal shop.

Okay. These are only some musings -- not meant to be blueprints for anything, but just a mix of good and bad ideas. I'd appreciate any comments or further ideas.


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## Ginseng (Jun 6, 2003)

Paul,

That's actually not a bad idea about going to the 2D. It should easily hold 4x123 in length. I know my 3Ds will hold 123s side by side...I tried it some time ago. As for the adaptor, I think someone posted a little while back using just a couple of 3/8" dowels and big washers to make a parallel serial setup in a Mag D body. I just wish I remembered where I saw that thread. How about 2 x 4 x 123 in a 2D body driving an 809? The overdrive would go up somewhat but so would the runtime.

I designed a setup to allow the running of 2 x 3 x 123 in a linear stack in a 4C body. I actually prefer the baton-like profile of the long Cs. in fact, the 5C should easily hold 2 x 4 x 123 in a parallel serial setup. 

I would like to try the 01125 in a 4C in 6 x 123. But I wouldn't dare until I could get an aluminum reflector in there. I'm sure 25 watts could melt a plastic reflector pretty quickly. 

Paul, your idea just triggered an idea in my brain...along the lines of Elektrolumens and his 3-to-D adaptors, what if we could have made 2-to-0.67C adaptors? These would allow you to stick in two CR123s in parallel. Stack three of these together and you would have a 2 x 3 x 123 parallel serial! You could also have a serial 2-to-0.67C adapter that would allow high voltage in a short stack. The idea here is a sort of Lego-approach to battery carriers allowing one to build the desired voltage and current profile. 

I've thought about investigating the Brinkmann ProMax D lights and Legend C lights. They look pretty nice but I am not sure what type of reflector they have. More than likely plastic.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (Jun 6, 2003)

Wilkey,

That thread you mentioned. I searched and searched and searched. And here it is: MR-16 3D Maglight Mod Finished by Soloco. I'm not sure I understand how all that hardware fits together, but I'm going to puzzle it out. It appears that the adaptor has no structural integrity in itself, but relies on the sides of the host to keep it all together. I suspect it's almost impossible, in the space available, to insert a self-contained magazine such as the SF M6 has.

I like the 6x123 for the WA01125. I hadn't thought of that one. I'm entering it in my spread sheet with light blue background. (That means something to try out, someday.)

Your Lego-pairs idea fascinates me. I'm thinking maybe duct tape to help on this one? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif It's a young idea -- plenty of room for growth

I'm glad to see you're intrigued by the double-barrel-in-a-D idea. Soloco, in the reference thread made it work. So can we. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Paul


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## Darkcobra (Jun 9, 2003)

I'm making a small order to Carley and need to find homes for a few more PR based bulbs.
I'm just ordering in stock items, no special stuff as the 716 and 717 are in stock (those two bulbs are what I'm ordering) and ready to ship.
I need to find homes for 5 more lamps, your choice of 716 or 717 which is your best bet with running 3 - CR123 batteries. I'm in California, so I get taxed, so each bulb will cost $3.90 each plus shipping to you.
Example 5 bulbs = $19.50 plus about $2.00 shipping First Class. You can just buy 2-3 lamps and I guess I can keep what's left over. Hopefully though we can find some people looking for some easy mods.
Please PM me if interested.

Thanks,
Joel


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## PaulW (Jun 9, 2003)

Joel,

And here's something for someone who is willing to take on a slightly more-than-easy mod. The 717 is slightly underdriven with 3 x 123. This allows it to be a perfect candidate for using a parallel-serial configuration of 2 x 3 x 123 in a Mag 2D using the double-barrel technique shown HERE. The amount of drive should be very close to optimum, resulting in an output of 6.8 watts with each battery supplying 390 mA for a life in excess of 2.5 hours.

Thanks for making your extra bulbs available.

Paul


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## Darkcobra (Jun 9, 2003)

Oh no! Another Carley bulb and CR123 quick mod!
I'll have enough Carley bulbs on hand to start playing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I only need to find homes for 3 more bulbs possibly. 
I should be making the order by about Wednesday regardless if the orphan lamps are taken or not.


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## larryk (Jun 9, 2003)

Joel, if you still want to sell 3 bulbs I'll take 2 716 bulbs and 1 717 bulb. Larry.


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## soloco (Jun 9, 2003)

Hey guys! It's interesting to have a post of mine referenced here. I like to go with the double barrel 123s so as to keep the voltage drop down under load. I do use 3/8" dowels in my 2D and 3D mods. Currently 5 x 2 123s for my MR-16 and 3 x 2 123s for the Carley 716. I'm going to experiment with other bulbs, but 4 x 2 is kind of an awkward fit. The 809 will probably need 4 123s because the voltage drop will be pretty severe with 1.2A. You'll probably have better luck with the 808 and the 4 123s. I'm going to try the 801 with 5x2 123s. This might be overdriving it a bit, but that just means extra brightness, right? Hehehe. About the reflector: definitely get the Carley 1940 or 1909 reflector to replace the Mag one. It'll probably melt with these blubs. I have a mod with that under a different thread, but I'll post it on my website just the same.


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## Ginseng (Jun 9, 2003)

*Update:*

[ QUOTE ]

09 June 2003

Hi Wilkey,

Your potted lamps are in the final stages now. The cement used has a drying
time of 48 hours, so I think they'll be done today for tomorrow's shipment.
I'll confirm this later though.

Should you have any questions, please advise.

Thanks again for the order. I hope every one enjoys the lamps.

-Patty

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not receive a follow-up confirmation but I still expect to receive and ship the bulbs out by the end of this week. 

Wilkey


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## soloco (Jun 9, 2003)

just finished the quick page.
http://www.jerrykco.com/lights/2DX123.htm


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## PaulW (Jun 9, 2003)

Soloco,

2D x 123 Mod is a great page. That's going to help me a lot. I'm going to have to figure out how to get that reflector reamed out. I have no drill press (nor any friends who do). Perhaps I can rig something with what I do have. Thanks.

Paul


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## larryk (Jun 10, 2003)

I'm new to modding lights, but after reading this thread I went out and bought a 2 C Maglite. Changed it to use 3 123's and put in a Radio Shack KPR 112 bulb. Works very nice. My question is what benefit would you get using a Carley 716 or 717 bulb. Larry.


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## Ginseng (Jun 10, 2003)

Hi Larry,

The only real benefit I see is brightness. The 716 will be slightly overdriven by 3x123 ( I base this on Paul's actual load measurements of SF123s). Since it's already rated at 129 lumens, it might make in the neighborhood of 140+. That's roughly 40% greater than the KPR112 overdriven. Of course, this is all just eyeballing. I don't think anybody has really deemed it worthwhile to do actual lux measurements of such a modest mod. 

I bought some 717s because they'll be underdriven at 3x123 to make over 120 lumens and they can be overdriven by 4x123 to make an estimated 200+ lumens. Yeah!

Wilkey


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## Darkcobra (Jun 10, 2003)

Larryk PM sent.
My small group buy is now closed. . . .
I've got enough homes for all bulbs
Just need confirmation from larryk, the order is going in today. 

Thanks,
Joel


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## larryk (Jun 10, 2003)

Hi Wilkey, brightness is a good thing, especially when it's inexpensive. Larry.


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## Darkcobra (Jun 10, 2003)

Alanl, Elnath, Larryk
I ordered the bulbs from Carley.
Should ship out today or tomorrow, which should come to my door by about Friday. In turn I'll ship out to you guys Monday by First Class Mail. You should have your bulbs by mid-week. PM sent with my mailing address and your totals. Thanks for not letting me buy $50.00 worth of bulbs, hehehe. Happy Modding and also thanks to everyone in this thread that has been gracious enough to spread the wealth of knowledge. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Thanks!
Joel


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## Darkcobra (Jun 11, 2003)

Elektrolumens is close to completing the 3toD adapters.
How about an 18V Maglite?


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## Ginseng (Jun 11, 2003)

*UPDATE*

[ QUOTE ]
11 June 2003

Dear Wilkey,

I just received the potted lamps. This order will ship out tomorrow via UPS
Orange.

Thanks & let me know if you have any questions.

Take Care - Patty

[/ QUOTE ]

A few days late but at least they'll be on their way tomorrow. Now what the hell is UPS Orange?

Wilkey


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## Ginseng (Jun 11, 2003)

Oh well,

Orange is Three-Day after all. Looks like the bulbs won't be in my hands until Monday. I apologize for the delay. I guess the potting took a little longer than carley estimated. I'll still get them out as soon as I can thereafter.

Wilkey


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## PaulW (Jun 11, 2003)

Wilkey,

Thanks for keeping us informed.

Paul


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## Darkcobra (Jun 20, 2003)

I've finally recieved and tested my Carley bulbs last night. I ordered the PR based 716 and 717 bulbs and tried them out in my Mag 2C with UCL lens powered by 3xCR123's.
717 - When I installed the 717's, it was wierd, this would be the bulb that is a bit UNDERdriven. When I turned on the light, I could actually see the wound up coil filament casted up on the wall that I was shining the light on. Sorry, no pictures available, I wish I had some though as it looked funny /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif. 
716 - I tried the 716's with the same setup as above which is the bulb that is a bit OVERdriven. The light output was great! Super bright and Super white! Though I think its more the fault of the Maglite reflector than the bulb, the output had some artifacts present. I'll try some of the Focusing Spacers to see if I can improve the beam. Usefulness? I set the maglite for flood, went into the backyard and "Holy Cow" I lit up the whole backyard! I was waiting for one of my neighbors to come out and look for a UFO or something....

Thanks!
Joel


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## PaulW (Jun 20, 2003)

Darkcobra,

Joel,

Thanks for reporting on the fun you are having.

I don't think that the spacers will help with artifacts, because the reflector is already adjustable. What might help is sputtering some clear acrylic on the reflector. This will give a texturizing effect.

But don't put too much on. There is an art to it. I believe lemlux talks about it much earlier on this thread and elsewhere. I recommend you search the words "sputter" *and* "reflector" over the past year.

Paul


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## TOB9595 (Jun 20, 2003)

Chris @ flashlightlens.com in the dealer forum has textured reflectors that he has pre done. I've not tried them but there are many threads about it.

DarkCobra, Did you have the kpr112 in your mag with 3x123? If so how did the 716 compare to it?
Tom


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## Darkcobra (Jun 20, 2003)

Hello Tom,
Yes, I did have the KPR112 and 118 in the 2C setup prior to the 716. I'm still trying to setup another 2C so that I can put them up for comparison. To my naked eye, it seems that the 716 cranks out a bit more white light than the KPR112.

Joel


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## Sproing (Jun 20, 2003)

Joel,
is the beam pattern on the Carley bulbs worse than the KPR112? I think the KPR112's beam is pretty ugly already...

Also, I have a texturized reflector on one of my 5W Luxeon mags. While the texture makes the beam totally clean, a lot of the throw is lost also. There is a significant difference in throw so it depends on which is more important for you.. Long throw or a clean beam


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## Darkcobra (Jun 20, 2003)

I wasn't too impressed with the Carley beam pattern, this is just me though. . . I'm more into throw, rather than beam pattern, so the Carley wins in that department. Again, I'm working on having two identical test beds, one with the KPR112 and one with the 716.
I sent everyone their bulbs yesterday, so we should slowly see some more thoughts in here soon. Plus, Ginseng's order should be getting delivered too. I'm pretty sure that different lamps will be tested in here also. . . Maybe with some better results than mine along with tips on improvements.

Joel


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## soloco (Jun 20, 2003)

I DON'T like the Carley beam pattern of their bulbs at all. That's why last batch of bulbs is frosted. I'll let you know when they come in and I can test them.


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## PaulW (Jun 20, 2003)

Soloco,

I have found that different bulbs have different patterns. It depends on the filament size and the way the lens on the end of the bulb projects the image of the filament. The 808 had a strange artifact that looked like the zig-zag smiley that other have described. The 612 that I'm using until my new bulbs arrive from Carley doesn't have this problem and gives me a beautiful beam.

I have also found that the orientation of the bulb with respect to the reflector affects artifacts. Sometimes just removing and reseating the reflector will change the beam.

I'm very interested in how your frosted bulbs will do. I look forward to your findings.

Paul


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## Darkcobra (Jun 20, 2003)

That's what I got in my beam pattern, a Zig Zag smiley pattern off to the side of the main beam on the 717. I wonder if my other 717's will do that to? My one 716 that I did install is pretty decent.

Joel


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## lemlux (Jun 20, 2003)

DarkCobra:

The "zizag smiley pattern off to the side" is hard to escape with bulbs that are lensed in the front.

As the pattern is sausage shaped, I call it the "grinwurst". I don't think we CPF'ers find this an appealing feature.


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## Ginseng (Jun 20, 2003)

Check the new "9000" thread for Carley bulb info. I though it'd be wise to break it out into an entirely new thread since this one is just too huge.

Wilkey


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## Alan_L (Jun 21, 2003)

I received my Carley lamps from Darkcobra yesterday. My experience with the 716 is similar to his, and I wasn't too impressed with the beam. With a KPR112, I can get a irregular shaped but fairly round, well defined beam that I can focus into a tight spot. With the 716 bulb, it is hard to focus the beam into a nice spot without having an annoying dark spot in the middle of the beam. If I focus it tight enough to get rid of the dark spot, then I get a badly defined beam shape with the filament pattern projected across it. But I think it is slightly brighter than the KPR112, and overall puts out more light.

I also got some 604 bulbs to put into my PrincetonTec TEC40 with NiMH AAs. This bulb is great! Compared to the 3 cell Mag Krypton Star I had in there before, the beam spot is bigger and much brighter! Even compared to the 716 bulb, the color is whiter and almost as bright! lemlux said that I might have a short bulb life with the 604s, and time will tell. But for right now, I love the light output of this setup!


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## larryk (Jun 21, 2003)

Has anyone tried the 717 bulb with 4 123's ?
Larry.


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## Ginseng (Jun 21, 2003)

Yes,

I've tried the 717 with 4x123. It is quite bright. Very nice. Only problem is the lens on the front of the lamp capsule refocuses the image of the filament on whatever you shine it. I find it distracting, but since this straight ahead light is not captured by the reflector, it does not seem to affect the brightness of the hotspot. I like it alot.

Wilkey


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## larryk (Jun 22, 2003)

I got my 716 and 717 bulbs today, (thanks Joel)and I agree with the others on the 716 bulb, not much different than the KPR 112. I put one of the 716's in my Makita 9.6 volt light and it works out great, much better than the 7.2 volt bulb that I had in it. But the 717 with 4 123's is the best, very white and bright. I used WrightRight on the lens and it smoothed the beam out quite nice. Also for the 4 123's in a 2 c Maglite I found using fine steel wool in the end cap works great.
Larry.


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## soloco (Jun 22, 2003)

Really?! Damn. I flashed my 717 with 4 123s.


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## Darkcobra (Jun 23, 2003)

Alan and Larry - Thanks for the heads up!
With Alan's finding, I think a PT40 with 604 bulbs will be in my near future!
I've got a few 717 bulbs in my possesion, I'm going to try the 4x123 setup one of these nights. I hope mines work as well as larryk's and not flashbulb like soloco's /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mecry.gif .


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## Darkcobra (Jun 24, 2003)

I spoke to someone out at Carley regarding the zig zag filament in the beamshot. They said that it is caused by the focusing lens on the bulb and there is nothing that they or we can do about it. . . . /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
At about $4.00 per bulb and all the bright white light it cranks out, its something that I can live with I guess.
Luckily, not all bulbs seem to have this problem?

Joel


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## PaulW (Jun 24, 2003)

I have tried only the 808 and the 612. The 808 projects zigs; the 612 does not.


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## Ginseng (Jun 24, 2003)

The 717 does. I would expect the 716 to do so as well. Frankly, I cannot understand the need for the front lens. It seems to do nothing good and confuses the spot with that distracting filament image. 

Wilkey


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## soloco (Jun 24, 2003)

Yes. The lens is so very irritating. I think I'll ask for on my next order if I can do without it.


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## X-CalBR8 (Jun 24, 2003)

The 808s that I got were without the lens. I guess that's why I don't seem to be having the problems that everyone seems to be having here, right?


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## Ginseng (Jun 24, 2003)

Guys,

You might want to try a small disc of Write-Right right in the center of the flashlight lens. Just cut it big enough to diffuse the projected filament image. Should not interfere with the hotspot.

I'd tell you how big a spot to cut but since the filament position varies, you're gonna have to custom fit it. 

Wilkey


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## lemlux (Jun 24, 2003)

WriteRight can shmush the fearsome GrinWurst but it can't tame it. 

The teeth just look like they haven't been flossed recently.


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## Ginseng (Jun 24, 2003)

haha, 

Well put Lemlux. BTW, I couldn't recall if you'd ever done any work with the WA 01318 bulb.

Wilkey


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## lemlux (Jun 24, 2003)

Ginseng:

I run the 01318 in my UKE 1200. This is a discontinued 8 * D cell dive light.

I have 8000 mAh NiMHs in this light and this 9.6V 1.93 A bulb is perfect for it. The more powerful 30 watt 01185 bulb will melt the lens in the bezel unless it's under water.

After PowerStream responds to my inquiry of yesterday about voltage drop at 2, 3, and 4 amp loads with their 9C rated 1500 mAh AA NiMHs, I'm inclined to have Carley pot 2 of my 3 spares to use in a Mag 3D with one of my Carley 2" reflectors reamed out to 3/4" and 3 of Elektrolumens 3AA to D adapters. I won't know whether to run 8 cells and a dummy or nine cells until I hear from PowerStream. I'm guessing that 9 cells will modestly overdrive the 35 hour bulb to between 600 Lumen and 700 lumen.


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## Ginseng (Jun 25, 2003)

Hmmm,

That sounds pretty good. I was thinking that the 01318 might be a good fit for the 2C in a 4x213 configuration. Non-rechargeable and shorter runtime but quite compact. Of course, my Carley reflector would have to be used.

Thanks,
Wilkey


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## lemlux (Jun 25, 2003)

Ginseng:

The voltage drop with 4 * 123 would be excessive with a 9.6V 1.93 A bulb.

The W/A 9.6 V 1.35 A bulb is not particularly impressive in my my DB6AA with 2 * (4 123's + 17 mm spacer) so what you propose would be even more underdriven.


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## PaulW (Jun 25, 2003)

Lemlux,

Based on my observations of voltage on fresh 123s, 4 of them putting out 1.93 amps would drop in voltage to 9.71. This makes for a 1% overdrive [(9.71-9.6) / 9.6].

But then, that's for fresh. The voltage would drop to the underdriven region within a few minutes, so I can see what you're saying. How much overdrive (for fresh cells) do you think one should shoot for?

Paul


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## lemlux (Jun 25, 2003)

PaulW:

It's hard for me to extrapolate because the switch mechanism in the DB flashlights appears to be relatively high resistance.

I would probably try using 4 @ 123's plus either an AA NiMH or an AA Lithium with that bulb. It's just awkward enough that I prefer the high current multi AA NiMH pack approach I discussed.

Or, as I also reported, it works great with 8 high capacity rechargeable D cells.


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## Ginseng (Jun 25, 2003)

Ok Lemlux,

How about this then:

Powerstream sells 2/3AA nimh, 0.6Ah, 15C discharge for $104/100. You could pack 9 of them in one of the old style 6AA holders like Elektrolumens sells. That would get you 10.8V, 5.4Ah capacity and presumably a descent current capability. This would get the 01318 into a Mag 2D body and give you decent but not great runtime and reasonable voltage drop. Am I missing something?

Wilkey


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## lemlux (Jun 25, 2003)

Wiley:

Powerstream Reports that the 2/3 AA cells are only 28.7 mm long -- less than 2/3 of the 50.5 mm length of an AA. Thus, they will fit with a spacer.

Their limited 600 mAh capacity is what leaves me unexcited -- not only about this battery but with any of the shorter than AAA, AA, or A cells I've seen. The only use for which I'd personally consider them for is in a direct drive 2AA 1W LS light or to drive a Brinkmann Legend 3AA bulb in a Brinkmann 2AA or MiniMag 2AA.

An 18.5 mm 68mm long Li-Ion delivers 9 times as many watt hours in a package that is only a little more than twice as long. A 16.5 mm 68 mm Long Li-Ion delivers 7 times as many watt hours.


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## Ginseng (Jun 25, 2003)

68mm length doesn't seem to multiply well into the AA length. Doesn't that make it about the same length as 4/3AA? If so, then three of those Li-Ion packs could replace 4xAA. I guess two+spacer could replace 3xAA.

Wilkey

PS, Whose Li-Ions do you use?


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## lemlux (Jun 25, 2003)

There are also 50 mm Li-Ions.

I have both Pila's and Copia's which are really same battery with different labels. Note that the smallest of these have a 16.5 mm diameter which is A or 123 diameter, not the 14.2 mm AA diameter.

The fatter NiMH's have an 18.5 mm diameter which compares to 23 mm on Sub C and 25 mm on C.


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## this_is_nascar (Sep 28, 2003)

OK, I've read this entire thread a couple times.

1. My eyes are all crossed, watery and hurting right now.
2. I've determined I must be the "slowest" person on the board.

I am currently using the RS-KPR112 in the 3-123 cell configuraton in a 2C MAG. The question is, which Carley lamp can I get which would allow the light to be even brigher, without the need to replace the reflector? Please let me know if I'd need one of those PR base sockets too.


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## PaulW (Sep 28, 2003)

That's some endurance to go through this thread even once. The way you state your question is interesting and perplexing. The only Carley bulb that comes close to the critera is the 612PR. The "PR" means that Carley pots it in a PR base. If you get a 612, you have to use the 912 adaptor. I don't know how much help this is to because of two problems:

1. The reflector is assured of being okay for only 10 minutes.

2. The bulb is seriously overdriven and has a short life.

Since you have narrowed the criteria, there technically is no Carley bulb that will do it. Lemlux's 285 lumen bulb was the 808, but that requires 4x123 and also has the two problems mentioned above.

Maybe I'm all wrong about this; I hope so. Maybe there's a Carley bulb I'm not familiar with. Maybe someone else can chime in and be able to give a helpful answer. Sorry I can't.

Paul


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 28, 2003)

I have this to say...

Why waste money on Carley bulbs? You aren't going to get a difference that your eyes can see unless two lights are running side by side.

I have one 2C with 3x123 and a M*g Whitestar 5 cell bulb. It is bright, IF you don't turn on my 2D with 3x123+1AA lithium driving a 5 cell Whitestar. Which is Bright, IF you don't turn on my 3C with 4x123+1AA lithium driving a WA01318 bulb in a Carley 1940 Reflector. Which is BRight, IF you don't turn on my 4D with 7x123 driving a 20W MR16 bulb to insane brightness!!!

Find a 5 cell Whitestar (Krypton) bulb and try it first.


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## this_is_nascar (Sep 28, 2003)

Thanks again guys. Time for some more research.


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## soloco (Sep 29, 2003)

I agree. I've spent hundreds of dollars on Carley and Welch Allyn bulbs. For your request go with the Magnum Star 5Cell Xenon. It's the best for your buck. Easy to find bulbs.


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## TOB9595 (Sep 29, 2003)

PB Joe
Where do you get a 20W MR16 bulb?
And what are the downsides?
Runtime
Heat
Bulb base
Tom


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 29, 2003)

Downsides...

Runtime. I figure this will eat 123s like candy. 

Heat. I don't think I dare have it on more than seconds at a time, However the MR16(or MR11) is desgned to run with no further heatsinking, so I don't think heat will be an issue.

Bulb Base. I have two of the Carley 912 PR to Bi Pin Adapters. I tried MANY ways to get power to the MR. In my case the lense holds the MR against the PR adapter, so I'm not getting a real solid connection. 

I just turned it on again... hee hee hee!!!

It came from Lowes. It's a Sylvania bulb. It came in a box rather than a bubble pack. And it was like $4.99.

But in a 2C M*g, 3x123 and a Whitestar Krypton 5 cell is about as good as it gets.


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## this_is_nascar (Sep 29, 2003)

Playboy, you prefer the Whitestar over the KPR-112? Is is the beam quality, brightness, runtime or a combination of these that make you prefer the WS?


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 29, 2003)

To be totally honest, I've never had a Radio Shack KPR112 to try. I have always had, and buy more from time to time of the Whitestars. 

Beam quality is cured by Writeright or Acrylite. They have proven to be plenty robust on 3x123.


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## this_is_nascar (Sep 29, 2003)

Child Alert: Don't do a GOOGLE search for "Acrylite" by itself.


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## bimemrboy318 (Sep 20, 2006)

Some historic reading for anyone interested!


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