# The Titanium revolution. Why I don't like it.



## Hallis (Dec 5, 2013)

I'm not sure whether or not this belongs in general custom discussion or in the materials section. But as it was related to mostly a specific material I decided to post it here and the Mods can move it as they see fit. 


As some of you may know i've been a member of CPF for almost 10 years now but have spent the last few years on a break pursuing other hobbies. And now it seems as though the hobby that I have come back to has seen a large shift from the traditional materials such as aluminum, to titanium. This is especially true for the custom light machinists who make their own production runs of complete units and accessories. 

I see the many reasons for making offerings in titanium such as weight, strength, corrosion resistance, etc. But the question I have is why nobody seems to offer anything made out of aluminum anymore (except for Fivemega whom seems to have more time than God to make everything under the sun).

Is it not worth the time? My main trepidation is that in the old days a lot of custom complete light runs were offered in several materials. For instance Mr. Bulk ran his stuff in aluminum (bare and annodized), brass, Stainless, damascus, and I think there may have been some Ti in there somewhere. Lummi ran Aluminum, Titanium, Nickel Steel, etc. The big advantage to that is that with the different options in materials there was a HUGE range of price, from the inexpensive bare aluminum all the way up to the expensive as hell damascus. Meaning that a lot more people could get in on it as they might be able to afford the ~$185 aluminum light but not the $500 titanium or damascus light. (And yes i realize that the added cost of certain materials plus difficulty of machining is what commands the price).

It just seems to me that everybody has a Titanium fetish now and that it's pricing a lot of great lights out of the range of the less financially fortunate. I'd really like to hear back from the custom light makers on this. Does everybody just no longer care about the lower/mid range budgeted flashlight enthusiast anymore? Is the return on investment not worth it to work in aluminum? Is the ability to get a lot of these things done in aluminum still there and just by individual request only? 

Sorry if this sounds like a little mini tirade but I just need to know why things are the way they are. 

-Shane


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## easilyled (Dec 5, 2013)

Mac's Customs, Peak Solutions, OMG Lumens, PhotonFanatic, Prometheus Lights (Dark Sucks), Oveready, TNC Products, tgwnn and Vinhnguyen54 *all* offer lights in materials that are not exclusively Titanium and as far as I know they are all offering Alumnium lights. Seems like quite a good choice to me.


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## precisionworks (Dec 5, 2013)

Hallis said:


> ... the question I have is why nobody seems to offer anything made out of aluminum anymore ... Is it not worth the time?


That's the bottom line. Custom designers like McGizmo spend untold hours developing an idea or concept into a product that can be built & sold for a profit. None of the custom designers are getting wealthy on Ti lights but those lights produce enough profit to make it worthwhile, pay the bills & open the shop doors tomorrow.



> ... a lot more people could get in on it as they might be able to afford the ~$185 aluminum light but not the $500 titanium or damascus light.


There are more aluminum lights in the $200 & under price range than I can count. Not much financial reason to go there unless the light is made in China* & can be produced in large quantities for a reasonable profit margin. 

(*China or any other country with low labor costs & good manufacturing technology.)


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## Z-Tab (Dec 5, 2013)

I think only McGizmo, Muyshondt, and Tain are Ti only. McGizmo seems to use Ti for practical reasons, as his uses expose his lights to salt water, and Muyshondt said that doing Aluminum versions of his lights just wasn't worth it. I don't know if Tain has a specific reason why he does Ti, but his lights are very reasonably priced, considering the level of quality you get.

I forgot Cool Fall. The Spy 007 and Tri-V are Ti only. I don't have any understanding of his costs and it would change the hobby a lot if he could offer a relatively low cost alternative.


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## HarryN (Dec 16, 2013)

The engineering time and development cost dominate most small run lighting projects. While materials costs are significant, for volumes under 100, and possibly 1 000, time and prototyping costs are still a very large chunk of the project cost.

Personally, I am a big fan of 7000 series Al for these types of projects, but with so many (quite good) commercial Al lights on the market, it is pretty difficult to differentiate yourself on a lighting project anymore.

Look at how complex the user interface and electronics dimming requirements have become, and frankly, just how picky (OCD) the buyers of custom lights are about what they receive. I am not saying they are wrong, but most buyers of custom lights under appreciate the effort that goes into bringing them to market. The last drop-in project I worked on (as a hobby) I had over $ 2K just into the electronics design and proto build up, and still had a ways to go before it was ready for customers. My intention was to sell the drop-ins more or less just above materials cost so others could share in the hobby, and it would still have been $ 150 + each.

If kickstarter had been around back then, more projects would have been viable, as the development risk could have been spread out a little more, than just on the back of the original hobby developer.


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## Lightning Bub (Dec 17, 2013)

I am not a fan of titanium either. While titanium weighs more than aluminum, less titanium can be used and still equal the strength of aluminum. This means items made of titanium can be extremely thin. Personally, I prefer a little more "girth" with no sacrificed weight increase. Give me aluminum any day! (I have large hands.)


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## archimedes (Dec 17, 2013)

PhotonFanatic said:


> ....So, Tungsten, Magnesium, and Niobium are all worth looking into.
> ....



I would like a superconducting niobium flashlight ...


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## scout24 (Dec 18, 2013)

I have lights made from Nitrolon, aluminum, brass, etc. For work lights, I prefer Ti because it requires no special care. I can get solvents, oils, dyes, etc on it with no worries. A quick wipe with some glass cleaner and I'm good to go. It takes a beating as well, without showing the effects. Strong, light, inert for my purposes, and impervious to most of what I throw at it. Yes it's expensive, but it lasts...


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## idleprocess (Dec 18, 2013)

Hallis said:


> I'm a huge fan of Tungsten just in principal. I've never owned anything made out of it. All I know is that it's incredibly dense and heavy compared to steel.



At a CPF get-together many years ago I handled a custom light made out of tungsten - was about the size of a roll of dimes _with the same heft_. The density was an amusing novelty, but I'm not sure it had any other benefits ... suspect a fall from waist height onto a hard surface would damage it badly.


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## dbleznak (Dec 18, 2013)

There is a point at which the utility of an item becomes out-weighed by other factors. I would think that most of CPF would fall outside the mainstream average Consumer. That's what makes us special. It's more important for me to buy the "right" item the first time, instead of trying to save money and cutting corners only to be left with something that will break in a year.

Look at HDS and Novatac. I drive my Yukon Denali over my HDS just for fun. The Novatac is basically a sanctioned "knock-off". Which light is better?


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## easilyled (Dec 18, 2013)

dbleznak said:


> There is a point at which the utility of an item becomes out-weighed by other factors. I would think that most of CPF would fall outside the mainstream average Consumer. That's what makes us special. It's more important for me to buy the "right" item the first time, instead of trying to save money and cutting corners only to be left with something that will break in a year.



Exactly, which is why I value my Tain lights so highly, amongst others like my McGizmo, TranquillityBase, Mirage-Man, Cool-Fall. 

Steve Ku lights are very highly prized too on CPF and sell on the B/S/T sometimes for about ten times the amount they cost originally. Care to comment on that?


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## Kestrel (Dec 18, 2013)

It's a shame that some folks can't have a discussion on this very pertinent topic without it becoming such a disagreement with regards to its content & subject matter.

I'm closing this thread, not because there isn't any hope of redemption for this discussion, but merely because the OP has requested it.




Hallis said:


> Indeed. As a matter of fact i'll do the honors and request it.



Happy Holidays,


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## Norm (Dec 18, 2013)

Further to Kestrel's actions all xenophobic off topic posts and replies have been deleted, you guys know these sort of posts belong in the underground. - Norm


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