# Liner Lock or Frame Lock? Where do I fit in?



## Search (Jun 29, 2009)

I've got a knife on my radar: The Zero Tolerance 0200.

It's got a liner lock. I know what that is. I have seen some that are really strong and some that aren't.

The more expensive 0300, 0301, 0302 have frame locks. I don't know what that is to be honest. I've heard they are the strongest.

The 0200s price and features are good for me. It's going to be my duty knife so I needed a really strong one. I don't want a possibility of it folding back on me because if I ever use it, there is a chance it will be a life or death situation.

No chance of me getting a fixed blade. So I'm wondering if the liner lock on the 0200 is going to be STRONG? OR should I go ahead and get a frame lock. With the price tag of 200+ it will be a while longer until I can afford.


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## flip (Jun 29, 2009)

Take a liner lock knife and hold it in your hand. Look at the liner lock and imagine it is much thicker. Know imagine that knife with the much thicker liner lock and without a scale or handle on that side. That is a frame lock knife.


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## PG5768 (Jun 29, 2009)

Framelocks are considered to be stronger than linerlocks. However, there are knives with linerlocks that are almost as beefy as some framelocks. Here is a picture of my Tyrade, which is a linerlock.







The blade is 5/32nds and the liner is between 2 and 3/32nds. The ZT linerlocks are at least equally beefy.


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## PG5768 (Jun 29, 2009)

Here's a pic of the ZT 0350 linerlock with some paracord for scale:


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## Kato (Jun 29, 2009)

The ZT knives are pretty substantial with strong locking mechanisms. I own a 0400 and the linerlock is very secure. :thumbsup:


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## souptree (Jun 30, 2009)

A liner lock is basically a frame lock with a second scale on the lock side.

The reason why some people consider a frame lock to be stronger (or at least more secure) is because when it is locked open and being held in the hand, you are actually providing redundancy in the system by holding the lock in place with your fingers via the natural squeeze of your hand. The fingers pushing against the lock act to prevent the lock from sliding off the blade, allowing the blade to close unexpectedly (on your fingers).


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## NotRegulated (Jun 30, 2009)

ZT makes very high quality knives. Other highly praised knives like Emersons are liner locks and Emerson knives have a thinner liner lock than the ZT 0200. I think that you would be happy with the 0200 because it is a quality knife. Most likely, you will not abuse it enough day in and day out to substanitially weaken the liner lock. Use it for what it was intended, cutting. Don't pry with it or incessantly flip it open to lock it out unless you absolutely have to and the knife should be fine. I think it is one of the best duty ready folders on the market today.

Here is a pic of the 0200 liner lock.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n202/giantsfan3342/ZT0200Review005.jpg


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## tundratrader (Jun 30, 2009)

The ZT knives are very, very sturdy knives. The frame locks are strider/hinderer design and strong as hell. They are beefy big frame knives. The liner lock models are quite nice as well. I would not hesitate to buy one. My only complaints are that I am not into the flippers that these all have and I am not the biggest fan of torsion spring assisted knives. But kershaw does both of those very well. 

Zach


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## PhantomPhoton (Jul 1, 2009)

I generally save myself a lot of money because there are so many (nice) knives that use linerlocks. In other words I don't trust linerlocks and I won't buy them anymore. I've had a couple liner locks fail on me, one of which was a very high quality brand name, expensive knife. However in the end ymmv, it all depends on the job you plan to use the tool for. If you're just buying it for EDC and general use, it isn't much of an issue. A quality liner lock like that from ZT should be perfectly acceptable. However, if you're planning on using a professional tool and pushing the mechanical structure of the blade to its limits; working with it in a wet, dirty environment; or need a folding blade that can be almost as strong as a fixed blade, skip the liner lock.


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## Search (Jul 1, 2009)

I've never encountered a situation while using my knife that could cause the blade to close. 

The frame lock knives are very expensive but if they are that much safer, I am probably just going to save for a couple more weeks and get one.

I've got a cheap liner lock knife that will fold up with the easiest push of the back of the blade. From what everyone has said, this will not be a problem with a ZT knife.

However, one of the reasons I plan on having it is for a last ditch life or death situations. Where I've dropped my gun or it's malfunctioned and I needed deadly force. 

With that in mind, it would be very bad to have the lock fail and tear my fingers up. If this situation ever occurs and the lock does fail, I'm in a bad position.


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## souptree (Jul 1, 2009)

Sounds like you have made your decision! :thumbsup:

Let us know what you wind up getting and how you like it.


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## PG5768 (Jul 1, 2009)

When you do get it, pictures, please! :twothumbs


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## Robocop (Jul 4, 2009)

I have always enjoyed both liner and frame lock knives however the liners I carry around town while the frame locks are used on duty. Most of the better liner lock knives are pretty costly and the way I lose knives on duty I try to keep my choices to about 50 dollars or less. I actually like the frame locks better for many reasons and they seem to be easier for me to function with one hand.

I also carry a fixed blade inside my vest and the way our vests are designed it is very easy to reach and comfortable to carry. Our bullet proof vests have a trauma plate in the front. It is simply a large pocket where you slide an extra panel inside to give you added protection. It is about 6x6 inches and I also keep a CRKT K.I.S.S. fixed blade inside the pocket along with the trauma plate. It is very easy to reach straight down the front of my shirt and grab the handle and with your uniform on you can not feel or see it......try it if you have a trauma plate on the front of your vest.


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## Search (Jul 5, 2009)

Meh, no vests.

Just regular uniform with soft bullet proof vest underneath.

SRT is the only ones with vests.

It seams that liner locks are strong enough for most things. I've played with some that are pretty tough.

For duty use Robocop, do you think a ZT liner lock is sufficient. I mean, how many things could you do on duty that COULD cause the lock to fail. I've never used my Griptilian in a fashion that could cause the blade to fold. I could use this sucker without a lock at all.

I don't jab it into hard things ever. Just cut. Someone once said if you stab someone who is attacking you and hit a bone hard enough it could be enough force to cause it to fold back if the lock fails.

However, when thinking of the odds of the only situation I can think of, and the odds of hitting a bone, and the odds of hitting it hard enough, and the odds of it actually failing, are very very very very slim.

I'm arguing because I don't have the income to afford a 250 dollar knife.

I'm trying to move out with my soon to be wife with a new kid in between temp layoffs while spending all my extra time training to be a cop. Even then my income will only be 2 dollars an hour more. 

It's a luxury I don't have to afford the 250 dollar ZTs. I'm just trying to find out if, with my available budget, the liner lock they make is good for duty work.

Robo I know you've seen enough to give a good opinion here.


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## Robocop (Jul 6, 2009)

I wear a regular uniform with a vest under my shirt and it is very easy to carry an average fixed blade (kneck type knife) inside my trauma plate pocket. As you can see from this pic my uniform is kind of tight (ok very tight..LOL) however it is still very easy to reach my fixed blade...(I am the shorter one in the pic) If you look close you can see the outline of my vest and the vest pocket is just under the first shirt button....very easy to reach.





As for your question the ZT is an awesome knife and in that price range you will find many good choices. Honestly I very rarely use my folder on duty for anything more than cutting zip ties off of prisoners or maybe a seatbelt every now and then. I once carried a Benchmade auto that I broke on duty and had it replaced. I also lost a very expensive folder in a foot pursuit jumping fences. It did not take long for me to realize that for the limited use I gave a folder on duty I could get by with several in the 40 to 50 dollar range.

If I were to ever find myself in a situation where I had to resort to a knife for defense I would much rather it be a fixed blade than any folder. Easier to deploy under stress and no fear of closing. You will find that in patrol you should have several options before you should ever have to depend on a knife in a bad situation.....I have never seen that happen to any officer.

If you do get an expensive folder I suggest at least keeping a lanyard on it and attatch it to your belt keeper with a keyring loop. I have my back up light attatched this way and if it falls off my belt it will stay put however if I pull it hard enough it will unsnap the keeper. Great insurance for anything expensive kept on your duty belt. If you can afford it an expensive folder is great however you can easily get by with an average folder in the 40 to 50 dollar range.

I myself am looking at a Boker Trance that I believe is about 40 dollars. AUS-8 blade and frame lock plus it is just small enough for pocket carry on duty. I carried CRKT folders for a while however moved away from them to try the frame locks. I liked the frame locks better just out of my personal tastes and right now have a Kershaw Vapor that was about 35 dollars. Many of my co-workers like the Kabar folders and from what I have seen they are pretty decent frame locks and sturdy. I believe they go for about 50 dollars also.

If you can find a way to carry a small fixed blade and an average folder I believe you should be pretty well set up for general patrol duties. I use my small fixed blade for many more things than I do my folder.....By the way good luck with your training as well as the hiring process as I remember it can be hectic trying to jump through all the hoops it takes to get hired.


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## PhantomPhoton (Jul 6, 2009)

Off-topic but I can't stay silent...
Wow Robo, that is a tight shirt!  You must work out now and then.

On topic...
I'd agree on using not-so-incredibly-expensive knives for on duty _tools_. They get lost and abused all too easily and you find yourself later on saying... 

As for last ditch self defense options I don't have much that is appropriate for CPF other than this: 
My previous comments and post were for the use of the knife as a tool not as a self defense weapon. While incredibly unlikely, the possibility of self defense with a knife does exist. Therefore should you have the opportunity, seek proper training for it (the generic, obvious reply). Techniques learned and used may disqualify certain folding lock types from being used safely. In the end a fixed blade is the most foolproof in an in-close situation where one may be grabbing, struggling, slamming into stuff and/or rolling about on the ground.


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## Search (Jul 6, 2009)

My god Robo. It's people like you that make me feel my workout attempts are fruitless. However, I know how much time you've put into that  I'll catch ya one day.

Thanks for the input, I know while in a fight for your life there is no way to pull a folder and open it. Even find the little auto open button.

This make me happy, I no longer have to spend 250 dollars. The 128$ ZT 0200 will be just fine. Just need to keep it in a place where I can get to it, but it isn't finding a new home.


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## Robocop (Jul 6, 2009)

Well my shirts are a little less tight these days however I still like a "snug" fit as I believe it is safer. Sounds weird however in a struggle it is much harder for a suspect to grab your clothing and hold you if your uniform fits snugly.....kind of like a snake slipping out of your grip......Well thats what I tell myself to feel better about my crazy tight shirts.... I will be 41 years old soon and hope to be healthy enough to retire in 7 more years.

Good genetics play a big part and yes some time in the gym. At only 5 foot 8 and 190 lbs I am really not that big compared to most. It does help to look the part as I would trade it all to be 6 foot 2 like my old partner in the photo. I miss that guy (we were a great team)) as he has left patrol for other assignment within the dept. 

Good luck with your knife decision and keep us posted on your set up when you get it. I forgot to add as far as fixed blade goes I very much like something I can use my own cord wrap design on the handle. A basic neck type knife can be had pretty cheap if you go with a bare type handle and supply your own cord....plus they are usually thinner to allow easier carry on duty while concealed. I am thinking of changing out my trusty K.I.S.S. by CRKT to one of the Benchmade Instigators. I like the Benchmade design and it is about 35 dollars at Knife Center.


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## Search (Jul 7, 2009)

Robocop said:


> Well my shirts are a little less tight these days however I still like a "snug" fit as I believe it is safer. Sounds weird however in a struggle it is much harder for a suspect to grab your clothing and hold you if your uniform fits snugly.....kind of like a snake slipping out of your grip......Well thats what I tell myself to feel better about my crazy tight shirts.... I will be 41 years old soon and hope to be healthy enough to retire in 7 more years.
> 
> Good genetics play a big part and yes some time in the gym. At only 5 foot 8 and 190 lbs I am really not that big compared to most. It does help to look the part as I would trade it all to be 6 foot 2 like my old partner in the photo. I miss that guy (we were a great team)) as he has left patrol for other assignment within the dept.
> 
> Good luck with your knife decision and keep us posted on your set up when you get it. I forgot to add as far as fixed blade goes I very much like something I can use my own cord wrap design on the handle. A basic neck type knife can be had pretty cheap if you go with a bare type handle and supply your own cord....plus they are usually thinner to allow easier carry on duty while concealed. I am thinking of changing out my trusty K.I.S.S. by CRKT to one of the Benchmade Instigators. I like the Benchmade design and it is about 35 dollars at Knife Center.



I feel you on the shirt thing. Even though my experience is from the mass training, and what little an pre-21 almost Reserve can do (which is surprising), I've felt like more comfortable when my clothes fit.

At 6"1 I feel sometimes I would trade that in to get where I want faster. Right now I'm trying to incorporate some Calisthenics into my weight lifting to try to get some different results.

It will be some months before I'm able to purchase a knife. I just brought this question up because it was the last big one I had. I'm going to watch the new product until next April, which is when I'm officially hitting the street. Money is too tight right now trying to save for a baby. 

I've heard some good things from LEOs about the Kabar TDI so I'm going to wait and see what my belt ends up looking like and I might add that and holster to it. If not, I'll check into other things.

At the time being, I only know what the Dept policy is on folding blades, not fixed.

Thanks for the input. Whilst I would rather have a frame lock, I do feel with my needs and limited budget, a liner lock is better suited until I have more income and money sorted out.


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## stockae92 (Jul 7, 2009)

PhantomPhoton said:


> However, if you're planning on using a professional tool and pushing the mechanical structure of the blade to its limits; working with it in a wet, dirty environment; or need a folding blade that can be almost as strong as a fixed blade, skip the liner lock.



what would be your recommendation for a folder?


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## PhantomPhoton (Jul 8, 2009)

stockae92 said:


> what would be your recommendation for a folder?



Depends on the task. I believe in using the right tool for the right job. I'm not a fan of any one blade style, lock type, company or steel chemistry. I tend to EDC lockback spydercos the most. I seem to use a liner lock One Hand special edition SAK Trekker the most lately. My favorite general lock type is an Axis lock as imho it will hold reliably with forces being applied from all sorts of andles on both the blade and the handle.
:shrug:


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