# Mag ROP, Help!



## rockz4532 (Apr 1, 2009)

I've been doing some research, and I've decided to 
make a ROP 2d mag in the next month. Problem is that I barely know how to. Here are my questions:
1: Does the stock switch need to be modded, and if so, how?
2: Which batteries work best for the ROP Hi, and where can i get them? (i can't seem to find the CPB1650's)
3: What adapter should I use?
4: Where can i get a cheap, but usable metal reflector for the Mag?
5: Can I use the Mag glass lens i got from DX? Is it suffice for the ROP?
6: Is there any other Mag hotwire mods around the same price, with more brightness?
7: Could I use Li-ions for the same price? Is it going to work well?
8: Do any other parts need to be modded?

Any Idea of the total cost minus the Mag?
Does any store sell all of the parts?
Is there any precautions or warnings I should know before using/building the light?

Any answers appreciated, and if anyone wants to sell some ROP parts to me, drop me a PM (though I am still researching a bit.)


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## supasizefries (Apr 2, 2009)

I think this LINK and this LINK will answer all your questions.


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## Badger_Girl (Apr 2, 2009)

1. I did not, and mine works fine. A mod might help though.
2. Eneloops work fine, but try the Elite 1700 from CPB as a replacement for the CPB1650's
3. FM 
4. FM
5. Sure. Glass is fine.
6. Mag85??
7. Not sure.
8. Nope. But resistance mods might help.


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## rockz4532 (Apr 2, 2009)

Ok. Thanks for the information, my parts list so far is:
6x2450mah Energizer's from lighthound (Will this work?)
1x Borofloat lens from lighthound
1x ROP bulbs

Possibly reflector and adapter from CPFMP. If not, I will use this adapter. 
Has anyone had experiance with this adapter?


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## supasizefries (Apr 2, 2009)

rockz4532 said:


> Ok. Thanks for the information, my parts list so far is:
> 6x2450mah Energizer's from lighthound (Will this work?)
> 1x Borofloat lens from lighthound
> 1x ROP bulbs
> ...



I have that very same adapter and it works fine for the ROP. I'm using AA Sanyo Eneloops because of their low self discharge rate.


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## Benson (Apr 2, 2009)

rockz4532 said:


> 6x2450mah Energizer's from lighthound (Will this work?)



For those batteries, see SilverFox's NiMH shootout -- if those are the same thing as the 2500s he tested, they're not bad; they won't hold voltage (and brightness) _quite_ as well as Eneloops, but mighty close, and longer runtime.

I'd tend to go with the Eneloops anyhow, because you can leave the light on a shelf and come back a month later and get full brightness out, but if you can take the time to charge it before each use (or can't let it sit a week between using it ), they look pretty good.


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## gswitter (Apr 2, 2009)

rockz4532 said:


> 6: Is there any other Mag hotwire mods around the same price, with more brightness?


With your proposed set-up. You can add a bi-pin adapter from FM (or others) and you'll have other bulb options - WA1111 (not quite as bright as ROP Hi), Philips 5761 (brighter than ROP Hi), etc.


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## rockz4532 (Apr 2, 2009)

Everybody, thanks for the replys.
As for regarding the batteries, I am changing my plan. Eneloops are what i decided on, but there are none in any of the B&M stores around, so do you think ROV Hybrids would do fine with the Hi bulb? Would it be matched or slightly less runtime&lumens? Would it provide the ~4 amps needed? 

ROV hybrids are on sale at my local sears for 5 bucks for 4 batteries, so it is just a cost-saving choice. Of course, if it doesnt drive the bulb well enough, I will use eneloops (or duraloops)

supasizefries,
does the adapter work stock with no modifications? Also is it well built for ~$20?

Any other recommendations before I start ordering?

Also, is there any cheap (~$20) reflectors I can get that will fit the ROP Hi? The camless M2 reflector from the sandwich shoppe does not fit the hi bulb, and is a little bit pricey.


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## DaddyCool (Apr 3, 2009)

Here is my question: When modding to ROP Hi, it's necessary to change the original socket, isn't it? (but not for ROP low, eh?)


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## supasizefries (Apr 3, 2009)

rockz4532 said:


> supasizefries,
> does the adapter work stock with no modifications? Also is it well built for ~$20?



The adapter works in the 2D MAG, no mods needed. I can't complain about the build quality.



DaddyCool said:


> Here is my question: When modding to ROP Hi, it's necessary to change the original socket, isn't it? (but not for ROP low, eh?)



I'm using the original socket for the potted ROP hi bulb, no mods needed.


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## AKDoug (Apr 3, 2009)

I have flashlights with the adapter from Sandwich Shoppe, MDOCOD and fivemega. The Sandwich Shoppe one works good but it is easier to charge the ones from MDOCOD and fivemega with an RC smart charger. This way you charge the whole pack at once and it takes less then two hours. You can buy just about everything from fivemega and then you end up paying less in shipping.


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## Badger_Girl (Apr 3, 2009)

IMO, fivemega has the best adapters and sockets and reflectors...

you can get almost everything you need from him.


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## Illum (Apr 3, 2009)

Assuming your build is for a 2D/C maglite

1: unless your going to a high current build [50W+] your don't going to need to work with the switch
2: Eneloops, Elite 1700s [www.thomasdistributing.com for Eneloops]
3: depending on what you have available, FM's 6AA-2D work fine, Mdocod's 6AA-2D work fine, If you managed to find a few 6AA-2D magamod's adapters, they will work as well. 
4: Check with Litho123 to see if has any reflectors left, if not, contact FiveMega [FM], while his MOP Cammed reflector works very well...its a bit on the expensive side
5: if its glass, chances are it will work. Many where would consider UCL for higher light transmission, personally I use Borofloat [Boro-silicate] window obtained from lighthound, its more temperature resistant and prevents shattering as I use my mag hotwires in the rain occiasionally. 
6: Aside from the Mag ROP, theres the Mag11, Mag61, Mag85, Mag64, Mag623 [or USL, aka paper burner], Mag625...etc. The 3D Mag85s has slightly more parts than a ROP: WA1185 bi-pin lamp, G4 bi-pin to PR adapter from fivemega, and if your using NiMH in a stock maglite: 9AA to 3D adapter. 
7: Sure...if you can stuff 2 18650s in your mag in series it should work. Any other variants may not be able to maintain the proper output because the lamp current consumption is too far above the batteries ability to provide [asuming we are talking about protected cells here, I'd keep the max output in terms of amps to be around 2C, C = capacity in AH of the cell]
8: You have the option of cutting down resistance using a gold spring, or simply a jumper from the tip of the spring down to the bottom, removal of anodizing in the tailcap. Modding the tailcap to use a MOSFET switch, replacing the lamp tower with a softstarter...etc.
* But for a basic ROP mod...the only thing you need is:*
A new window [Lighthound, $6]
A new reflector [FM, $25]
A new lamp [comes in a set of high and low lamps, keep the low under the spring as a spare, lighthound, $10]
A set of 6AA identical brand NiMH cells [$10/4, so it works out to about $15]
A battery holder [FM 6AA-2D, link here, $37]
FM will include a male charger plug to use with the built-in charger port in his adapter. 
I recommend this charger for your eneloop pack [Battery junction, $26], When you recieve the adapter, choose a connector accessory you don't use and cut the end off, solder on FM's included adapter plug (CENTER IS POSITIVE) and you are set. [I've snipped my Male Tamiya to Mini Female chord for this particular mod, because I can use the alligator clips for other uses]

and it should work as intended for as long as the batteries/lamp lasts.
It works to about $120 before tax, shipping, etc...excluding the maglite...not bad in terms of price really. 

Good luck on your build:twothumbs


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## bguy (Apr 5, 2009)

I wanted to try out a ROP, but I wanted to do it on the cheap. I got a reflector from KD for $10. I picked up the bulbs from a Pelican dealer in LA for less than $8 a set. And I used a couple protected 18650s that I use for other lights. Then I made a spacer from wood. Works, but I have to triple click the hi bulb due to the protection circuit on the batteries.

I still have the plastic lens, but it's ok if the light isn't on for too long.

Bradley
http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=5633


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## KiwiMark (Apr 5, 2009)

bguy said:


> I still have the plastic lens, but it's ok if the light isn't on for too long.



Why stick with the plastic lens, the glass lens from flashlightlens.com or the one from KD are very cheap.


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## ampdude (Apr 6, 2009)

I agree, and pick up a few in case you break one.


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## greenLED (Apr 6, 2009)

Anybody tried a ROP Low bulb with some older Pila 18650's?

I'm wondering whether their rather conservative protection circuit will power that bulb or if I need AW cells.


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (Apr 7, 2009)

It's too bad AW can't offer his C-size Li-ions anymore-decent runtime and no double clicking.Although it took forever to charge them up!


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## KiwiMark (Apr 7, 2009)

ANDREAS FERRARI said:


> It's too bad AW can't offer his C-size Li-ions anymore-decent runtime and no double clicking.Although it took forever to charge them up!



His new IMR ones should be available in a few days.


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## bguy (Apr 7, 2009)

I do plan on replacing the plastic lens with glass. I just haven't done it yet. I don't know about Pilas, but I have protected DX 18650s, and they can do the ROP low on the 1st try. 

Bradley


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## ElectronGuru (Apr 8, 2009)

KiwiMark said:


> His new IMR ones should be available in a few days.



+1

Half the difficulty with most hotwires seems to be with the batteries. You have to buy 6+ cells and an adaptor or fit special tubes inside or cut the spring or add extender rings or buy a longer model and cut it down.

Having just built an IMR powered 9P with an 1185 bulb, I'm a huge new fan of AW *RED*! Get a Mac 2C, add a pair of IMR26500 (C) cells, and just a few changes to the head: bulb/reflector/glass. Just add a charger. No cutting, no regulation, no double clicking.


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## ampdude (Apr 8, 2009)

> "Having just built an IMR powered 9P with an 1185 bulb,"



Are you using three of the 16340's and a FiveMega socket?

That's sounds badass, I never even thought of that before.. :devil:


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## ElectronGuru (Apr 8, 2009)

ampdude said:


> Are you using three of the 16340's and a FiveMega socket?
> 
> That's sounds badass, I never even thought of that before.. :devil:



Yes and YES. I don't want to distract from this thread, so I've posted some early pics here:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2910695


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## rockz4532 (Apr 12, 2009)

Ok, sorry, I haven't been catching up with my project too well.
So far, I've changed my plan to use 2x 17670 or 18650's.
I have built my li-ion adapter for 2D, and it fits almost perfectly. The Mag does not have a spring anymore, so I will have to compensate for the ~2 inch gap.
I will post pictures later today.

I am ordering the cells today or tomorrow, but lighthound is out of aw protected 18650's, so would the 17670's work well for the Hi bulb? Could I use the IMR 18650s? I see they are capable of tremendous current, and with no protection, so I do not want to  my cells if a short happens in the testing.

Thanks for all replys!


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## ElectronGuru (Apr 29, 2009)

ElectronGuru said:


> Get a Mac 2C, add a pair of IMR26500 (C) cells, and just a few changes to the head: bulb/reflector/glass. Just add a charger. No cutting, no regulation, no double clicking.



I need to update here. The 26500's have very little voltage sag and a now proven tendency to blow bulbs that have been relying on the kindness of sag from lesser cells (including smaller IMRs). The IMR26500 will blow the standard 6 volt (3854) ROP high. I have learned of a special 7.2 volt (3853) ROP high bulb and have one on order to try.

-EG


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## exodus125 (Apr 29, 2009)

I would get the adapter from mdocod, thats the one thing you dont want to cheap out on. 

You can get everything else from Kaidomain for cheap, But id recommend getting the pelican bulbs from lighthound.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Apr 29, 2009)

ElectronGuru said:


> I need to update here. The 26500's have very little voltage sag and a now proven tendency to blow bulbs that have been relying on the kindness of sag from lesser cells (including smaller IMRs). The IMR26500 will blow the standard 6 volt (3854) ROP high. I have learned of a special 7.2 volt (3853) ROP high bulb and have one on order to try.
> 
> -EG


Even with the AW Softstarter??


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## ElectronGuru (Apr 29, 2009)

Unfortunately, I don't have one of those. My testing also does not include any resistance fixes, so normal switch, normal body, and normal spring. Regulation, however, is looking increasingly attractive!


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## KiwiMark (Apr 29, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Even with the AW Softstarter??



I have blown a ROP high from 2 protected D-Cells (around 4 - 5 Ah) - I have 2 AW soft-start switches, but they are bi-pin and the ROP bulbs are potted. I had no resistance fixes, just standard stuff. I would expect the voltage drop with IMR 26500 cells would be no worse than with protected D cells, probably less drop with no protection circuit to add resistance.


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## rockz4532 (Apr 29, 2009)

Well, so far my low and high are working fine on 2x17670's, but I wont be using the high since it draws over 2C.


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## Chrontius (Apr 30, 2009)

Never had my Kai lithium Ds flash a bulb, and those have to be capable of some current. Or they were, before the protection circuit went bad.


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## KiwiMark (Apr 30, 2009)

Chrontius said:


> Never had my Kai lithium Ds flash a bulb, and those have to be capable of some current. Or they were, before the protection circuit went bad.



Maybe I just got unlucky? My protected D Li-ions are from KD.


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## ElectronGuru (May 2, 2009)

ElectronGuru said:


> The IMR26500 will blow the standard 6 volt (3854) ROP high. I have learned of a special 7.2 volt (3853) ROP high bulb and have one on order to try.



Another update:
2x freshly charged IMR26500's will NOT blow the special 7.2 volt (3853) ROP high


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## lctorana (May 3, 2009)

ElectronGuru said:


> Another update:
> 2x freshly charged IMR26500's will NOT blow the special 7.2 volt (3853) ROP high


Never in doubt.

Now, do you have a "standard" (e.g. 6AA) RoP to compare it to? Just wondering about brightness & colour temperature.


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (May 3, 2009)

lctorana said:


> Never in doubt.
> 
> Now, do you have a "standard" (e.g. 6AA) RoP to compare it to? Just wondering about brightness & colour temperature.



+1 :thumbsup:I would like to see how these bulbs(3853) handle being overdriven-say 8-8.5v.Would there be a significant improvment from the regular ROP-High?


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## mdocod (May 3, 2009)

Sorry I didn't catch this sooner RockZ,

17670s should not be used for powering up an ROP high. That's ~3C discharge rate and will wear them out quickly, with an increased likelihood of internal shorts developing which could lead to fire/explosion during charging.


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## ElectronGuru (May 3, 2009)

mdocod said:


> I'm working on a photographic technique to show color temperature. When ready, I'll add profiles for all my bulbs (and a few LEDs) to my incan guide.​
> Sweet






lctorana said:


> Now, do you have a "standard" (e.g. 6AA) RoP to compare it to? Just wondering about brightness & colour temperature.






ANDREAS FERRARI said:


> +1 :thumbsup:I would like to see how these bulbs(3853) handle being overdriven-say 8-8.5v.Would there be a significant improvment from the regular ROP-High?




Here's a rough attempt at showing the color differences between bulbs. The Malkoff is running off 2 black label AW C's. All 4 ROPs are on the same pair of IMR26500's, sitting in a Mac 2C. The lights were a foot away, pointed directly at the lens. I ran down the cells a bit before running the H bulbs so the 6.0 volt H would not poof. Voltage values shown are spec, not actual.

Light is blurred on the way into the camera, so each square is the actual complete photo recorded by the camera. Images were recorded straight into JPG with sRGB color space. All are taken with the settings fixed on F11 (aperture) and *5000K* (a theoretical color temp of white). Shutter speed was light metered so every sample would have the same brightness, leaving color as the remaining variable:







I'm still working on the color averaging, but this at least gives you an idea. I think next time, I will set the camera to achieve lighter results, these seem overly dark/exaggerated.

BTW Andreas, the 3853 bulb is technically less overdriven, but combined with the 26500's its one heck of a beautiful combination. Unfortunately, while I have all the bulbs, I don't have a standard host/cell setup to drive (or know that I'm driving) the 3854 bulb normally.


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## greenLED (May 3, 2009)

...all I see are 6 boxes of different colors, with bulb names and voltages


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## ElectronGuru (May 3, 2009)

Sorry G,

I got so caught up in the technique, I forgot to give context. This is radically new, so it will take a bit of explaining. What you are seeing (correctly) are 5 photographs. Not of bulbs or beamshots or even bounceshots. These are photos of the actual color of the actual light being projected. 

Have a look at this spectrum:





This is the spectrum of color, between red and blue that we see by. Not the color of objects but the color of the light that illuminates objects. Look at a red chair outside at noon, then put the same chair inside with a 100watt bulb. It will look more red. The closer to "white" a given light source, the easier it is to see the true colors in the space we are viewing.

LEDs tend to be blue. The older/cheaper an LED is, the bluer it tends to be. The holy grail of LEDs is to be as white as possible. Incans tend to be red/yellow. The lower the power, the yellower they tend to be. The holy grail of incans is to be as white as possible. Looking at the complete spectrum above, there is but one point in the middle, one white that both technologies are trying to reach - true white.

While there is little agreement on the exact K of white, setting my camera to 5000k is pretty close. In absolute terms, each square in post 37 shows how far off white (5000k) a given bulb is. In relative terms, each square shows how far away the color of every bulb is from from the color of every other bulb. In this case, you can see how yellow a given bulb is (at the voltage in my light when I took the picture). You can see how blue my example LED is and see how much more blue it is relative to the entire ROP family.

Have a look at the CCT column on the Welch Allyn bulb site:
http://www.walamp.com/lpd/webstore/searchbylamp.tpl?SKU=17345948104771&cart=12413984541267753​
CCT (Correlated Color Temperature) is a specific measurement form of Kelvin, in this case, the color temperature of a specific bulb at the standard voltage. See how most of the CCT values are in the 2500-3500 range? Notice how this correlates to the yellow section of the spectrum above. Driven at their spec voltage, this is the color each bulb will put out. But as we know, overdrive the bulb and it will become more white, closer to - but still far from - 5000.

My hope is to develop this technique to the point that we can map the colors of popular emitters (LED and incan) in popular configurations. Imagine, being able compare the colors of two popular bulb choices (at your preferred voltage) or to see how much less blue a given 'warm LED' actually is.

Does that help?


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## greenLED (May 3, 2009)

ElectronGuru said:


> Does that help?


:rock: :rock: 

Looking forward to more of your color comparisons. Very interesting concept.


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (May 4, 2009)

That's a very interesting project you have going ElectronGuru-you may want to start a new thread.One thing I have to ask-you keep saying that white (5000K) is the optimal color range.Humans have evolved with two light sources-the Sun and fire-both in the low 4000 range.Most members here claim better color rendering when using incans as apposed to LED's.Why are you proposing 5000K?


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## Benson (May 4, 2009)

ANDREAS FERRARI said:


> Humans have evolved with two light sources-the Sun and fire-both in the low 4000 range.


While the Sun itself, viewed through the atmosphere, may be as low as 4kK, or even lower, depending on time of day, the total solar spectrum outside the atmosphere is best matched by something between 5.5 to 6 kK. Rayleigh scattering causes the sun itself to look redder, but the blue light still shows up from the rest of the sky, so after scattering and absorption, daylight ranges from 5 to 6.5kK, nothing like "low 4000 range".


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (May 4, 2009)

Benson said:


> solar spectrum outside the atmosphere is best matched by something between 5.5 to 6 k .



I don't currently reside outside the atmosphere!!!


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## ElectronGuru (May 5, 2009)

Thanks for the encouragement Guys.

This is a healthy dialog. There are two challenges here:

1) There is no true-true white, measured or otherwise. What looks white to people is only white because our eyes have been looking at the sun for thousands of years. If our sun had been 1000 kelvin bluer for the last 100,000 years, 6000K would be an ideal.

2) This isn't like the boiling point of water at sea level or the atomic weight of X element. As much as we try to control this with fancy measures, it comes down to simple perception.

The spectrum I referenced above shows 5500K as center white. 

This page shows 5000K as center white:
http://www.greenpassion.org/f22/light-kelvin-temperature-name-chart-3663/

This page shows 5000-5400K as center white
http://www.3drender.com/glossary/colortemp.htm​

In my case, rather than basing this on incan or LED ideals, I'm trying to select a single point that can represent both with a single, common scale. In other words, look at a finished sample and say "yea, thats what my light output looks like" and know that the other samples are good predictors of what _that_ light will look like. When I have time for more testing, I'll try several example packs calibrated to different white points. Then ask myself "which point represents what I'm seeing."

I like the idea of making a thread for this. I'll see about that when I have the methodology down. Sneak preview: I may have a way to measure and include the actual K of each light source.


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## ElectronGuru (May 10, 2009)

...moved to its own thread...


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