# Undisciplined, spoiled brat teenagers...



## Jumpmaster (Dec 4, 2005)

So I've become an instructor in the National Guard -- we prepare the new enlistees to ship to basic training or return to AIT. The goal is to prepare them mentally and physically for the training environment they'll be in at the training installation.

Turns out, some of them don't like me too well!  They're angry with me because I tell them to do things like...I don't know...TURN THEIR CELL PHONES OFF DURING FORMATION AND LIGHTS OUT! Or...for telling them not to move or talk at the position of attention. Or for telling them to be quiet when they come into the room talking loudly while people are trying to sleep already. You know...pretty basic things. (BTW, they are not allowed to have cell phones at all during basic training...under penalty of UCMJ. If it were up to me, it'd be the same way here -- they need to focus on training -- not flirting with their recruiter over the phone.)

If they hate me now, they will have quite the awakening once they ship to basic training. I noticed this a lot when I was in basic training and AIT. The vast majority of the 17-21 year-olds I was in training with were just the most undisciplined, spoiled brats you've ever seen -- but that was corrected during the first week or so of basic. 

Maybe I'm old-fashioned (or just OLD) but when I misbehaved as a child, my dad beat my $## with a belt -- and I turned out fine. Never smoked, drank, touched drugs, etc. These kids get pissed over just about anything! I guess people's parents just let them get away with anything now?

Not all of them are this way...just most of them.

I think I'm just going to quit asking nicely and just start PT'ing the crap out of them from now on when they're disrespectful. That seems to be the only thing they understand. We are not drill sergeants and we do not act in that role...but I have been tasked as the "disciplinarian"...to keep them in line...

Sorry...just ranting...I'm trying to help these people and they don't seem to give a crap about anyone else but themselves.

JM-99


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## Grox (Dec 4, 2005)

Hey JM, I agree with you here. My parents didn't use corporal punishment on me as a child but I agree with you that today there are many teenagers who have not have grown to value moderation and humility. Many are selfish and lack common courtesy. There seems to be a moral decay evident in many of today's kids. I put this down to poor parenting and the impact that society has on today's teenagers. 

To be fair to these kids, they are still growing up and still maturing. I am sure that we all remember those of our friends who were faster or slower than us to reach the enlightenment of adult thinking.

I honestly think that parenting is the problem here. If parents would raise their children in the right way, and show and teach them upright values, we would have fewer problems.


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## Saaby (Dec 4, 2005)

I'm 19 and just graduated High School this summer so...

Obviously I think I'm perfect of course  but I agree with you! It's ridiculous, and it all comes down to a lack of respect. Plain and simple.


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## cobb (Dec 4, 2005)

Id treat them like a DI, I hate misbehaving, rude kids.


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## Jumpmaster (Dec 4, 2005)

cobb said:


> Id treat them like a DI, I hate misbehaving, rude kids.



Oh you don't know how badly I wish I could...In fact, they are starting a new program where National Guard soldiers can become drill sergeants...when this opportunity is a reality, I am going to apply. Not sure if I'll get it though...the slots will be limited and I'm sure there are E7's and such that will get it as a "reenlistment gift"...

It's kind of complicated...sometimes, our hands are tied...these people (most of them) haven't shipped to basic training yet. We have to try to instill *some* discipline in them (where there is currently NONE) and at the same time not scare them to death making them not ship to basic...apparently, there is a big enough problem with them having signed a contract and not shipping without me scaring them...

But...I'm starting to not care -- I will be the leader and they can be the followers. I am losing my patience for disrespect and lack of adherence to rules.

There are some good ones and they do make an earnest effort to do their best and abide by the rules. Those do not have a problem with me...and I don't have a problem with them. They're good kids. But the others! Whew!

JM-99


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## NewBie (Dec 4, 2005)

Have you given them any reason to respect you?


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## Jumpmaster (Dec 4, 2005)

NewBie said:


> Have you given them any reason to respect you?



You mean besides setting an excellent example (making sure myself and my uniform adhere to military standards and that I provide accurate information...and not talking down to them...) and not asking anything of them that I would not do or have not done myself? And my rank? No...guess not...

You know what...even if they don't respect the person, they had better damn well learn to respect the rank. I cannot wait for them to ship to basic training...will the drill sergeants have given them any reason to respect them on day one? Except for a bunch of yelling?

JM-99


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## Sigman (Dec 4, 2005)

Jumpmaster said:


> -- we prepare the new enlistees to ship to basic training or return to AIT. JM-99


Geesh! This is just unheard of - perhaps the Army did this back in 1975 when I joined the Air Force - I don't know.

I didn't get any "prep" for basic training. I realize there are indeed necessary differences which apply to the different missions of each specific service...but I pretty much took some tests, signed up, was fortunate enough to get a guaranteed job, and then on the bus/plane to Lackland AFB, Texas.

No "transition" for us - it was all or none/night & day/adapt NOW!! I miss those days! Maybe I was raised differently than the way kids are now days. I grew up saying "yes sir, no mam, please, thank you, etc...", practiced respect & courtesy, knew I had to follow orders!!

I knew what I was getting into, a close friend of mine joined and already had me in the "frame of mind". We didn't have too many "failures" in my Flight/Squadron/Group.

I wish you the best of luck and the best of times! These kids just don't realize (yet!) that what you can do for them is save their life!!


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## jtr1962 (Dec 5, 2005)

This thread reminds me of how I would so love to be a teacher and run my class like a drill sergeant. First day of class, I would come and mutter something like "It had to happen to me, what a bunch of sorry a$$es!"  After that of course would be the gratutious "The first and last words out of your filthy holes will be sir, _do you get me_?". And of course there would be the usual "hit the deck and give me 20". It would be fun, for the whole day it lasts. I'm sure the school board would kick me right out for hurting these poor kids' self-esteem, among other things.

Imposing discipline nowadays seems to be a dying art. Parents don't want to because they want the child to like them and be their "friend". Schools don't want to for fear if they overdo it the parents will get on their backs. Small wonder the vast majority of today's graduates lack self-discipline.


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## LifeNRA (Dec 5, 2005)

Maybe we parents should get back to raising our children instead of working for material goods. That big house or new car will not be our legacy. Those children who we avoid raising and turn to daycares, preschools, and public schools to raise because we want to keep up with the Jones' are our legacy. 

The above is not a knock on anyone who has children in daycare. I do not pretend to walk in anyone else's shoes. I am talking about those parents who work for material goods and put those goods ahead of raising their children. I guess I am just old fashioned.


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## nemul (Dec 5, 2005)

they just need a good a$$ whoopin


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## sniper (Dec 5, 2005)

NewBie said:


> Have you given them any reason to respect you?



Hell, yes, he has given them reason to respect him! His rank and his uniform. He has at least as much education as they do, is older, knows what he is doing, ( That's called experience.) has an assignment that he is trying to fulfill, and has likely looked into the eyes of the Doom *****, and survived. Not that any of the pimply-faced, slack jawed intellectuals he deals with would know or care. MOMMY! He YELLED at me!

The self-centered, juvenile, coddled, louts he is in charge of would make the Pope himself utter a vulgarity, a profanity, and a blasphemy, not necessarily in that order. 
When I went into the service, I heard "Young Hero, give your Soul to Jesus, because your *** belongs to me!" And it did, but I made it! 

Hang in there, Jumpmaster; This too, shall pass!

Thank you for your service, Sir!


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## Jumpmaster (Dec 5, 2005)

sniper said:


> Hang in there, Jumpmaster; This too, shall pass!
> 
> Thank you for your service, Sir!



Thanks for the thanks and the understanding, everyone! When I come home from a weekend like this, I sometimes get discouraged...it just makes me scratch my head and wonder how they got to be 17+ without someone already beating their $%% a few times with their attitude...

I am not there to be their friend, so I don't really care if they "like" me or not. You all are correct in saying that this (instilling discipline) is the first step to making sure they don't get themselves or their buddies killed in combat. So this is not a popularity contest...they can hate me if they want to as long as they start learning how to take orders that in the future may keep them alive.

JM-99


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## Sigman (Dec 5, 2005)

It's kind of funny looking back. At first I had to wonder why the Drill Instructor was teaching us to fold our underwear to an EXACT width of 6" and then accepting ABSOLUTELY NO MORE or NO LESS - folded EXACTLY in the manner he taught us!! This was just one of a countless list of fun things we got to think about and perform!! (beat dodging bullets, under barbed wire, crawling through mud - yes my AF squadron & flight got to do some of that fun stuff as well. It was still the "Vietnam Era"!)

"The ability to follow orders" - duh!! They taught us well and we appreciated it!


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## Lightraven (Dec 5, 2005)

Huh, well, my mom n dad split up when I was about three years old, so I had somewhat of an attitude myself at 18-19 years old (and I still do in some respects.)

Hooking up with the Army benefitted me and society. Still, it didn't happen overnight and both the Army and I were frustrated over each other's "attitude." I realized when I threw up during my first APFT two mile run that I was thinking of myself as an "elite" without having earned it.

The best instructors respected my capabilities and didn't take themselves overly seriously. The worst were just bullies who got off on abusing people.

Hopefully, the important things--teamwork, safety, combat drills, technical competence--will win out over the less important--uniformity, shiny boots, popularity with superiors. Some of the "attitudes" will change--due to maturing, peer pressure, competitiveness, or just a sense of responsibility and not necessarily from a beating (which I was occasionally threatened with, but never received.)

The best thing the Army could do is not smack people into obedience--it doesn't help for complicated skills that many soldiers have to master--but to recognize and reward those who are doing a good job. Some losers will always stay losers. Best for the Army if they are shown the door.

By the way, I have NO problem at all with PT'ing the crap out of people. It was my favorite punishment to receive cause I knew I was getting stronger and faster the more I got.


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## KevinL (Dec 5, 2005)

I used to think all those complaining about "kids these days" were overreacting somewhat, but I'm starting to believe them now. 

I was just having a discussion with someone twice my age (and I'm mid 20s), and he was telling me that I'm not completely off in my observations. More and more teens these days don't have the slightest sense of politeness. I was getting a drink at a fast food joint a couple of days ago, and I had six rowdy kids plow themselves down at the table next to mine - AND SIT DOWN AT MINE (each table seats 4) while completely pretending I was not there. They could have taken any set of empty tables adjacent to each other and they specifically had to choose mine. There were more than enough tables around to seat six side by side and they simply ran me off mine. 

I turned to the guy next to me and told him "I'd be very glad to let you have the table, but next time, please ask first."

Unfortunately I deal with them and their kind on a daily basis, and I have never seen anywhere near close to that lack of manners, decency, and ability to get some work done. This is a big problem because many of them are entering the workforce shortly. If I was their boss.. God help me. I swore to my boss that if any of these people showed up at our doorstep, I would make *DAMN* sure they never got hired. I have never seen people this 'don't care' before. Guess what, they're made to work in teams as well. I KNOW damn well that these people will end up getting each other killed if it was a life or death situation. Nobody cares to take the initiative, nobody wants to do anything.. the list goes on. 

But one thing I do believe is that the armed services are a good wake up call. Ask me how I know..  (though I wasn't one of the problem kids who went in - there were many far worse) some of the things I learned there would later serve me well, whether in the corporate world, or otherwise. Whether or not these people like it, very soon they are going to be *GIVEN* that responsibility and *MADE* to carry it.


PS: In all fairness, this is directed only at those creating problems. There are probably plenty more good kids out there that should not be unfairly tarred with the brush of some of their far more irresponsible peers - just as we ourselves would not want to be.


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## Bradlee (Dec 5, 2005)

I'm right in that age category you're describing, and I feel the same way. , although I find it's usually only a select few who have no respect. Sadly, without *real* punishment (read spanking, physical repremendation) I don't think the next generation will grow up to be any better.

I think the real problem is in this new philosophy that a child should be punished by taking away certain privillages. Although I realize that this can sometimes work, I remember quite clearly my fellow students (when I was in elementry school) being sent to their rooms when they were bad. The problem - their rooms had TV's, Computers, Game systems, etc. Kids just don't seem to be facing real consequences for doing bad things these days, and as a result they grow up without learning from their mistakes; they still show disrespect, etc, that should have been *beaten out* when they were young. :shrug:

-Brad


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## SJACKAL (Dec 5, 2005)

The human race grows weak, in the west or east, we face the same situations.


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## NewBie (Dec 5, 2005)

NewBie said:


> Have you given them any reason to respect you?





Jumpmaster said:


> You mean besides setting an excellent example (making sure myself and my uniform adhere to military standards and that I provide accurate information...and not talking down to them...) and not asking anything of them that I would not do or have not done myself? And my rank? No...guess not...
> 
> You know what...even if they don't respect the person, they had better damn well learn to respect the rank. I cannot wait for them to ship to basic training...will the drill sergeants have given them any reason to respect them on day one? Except for a bunch of yelling?
> 
> JM-99




That was exactly my point. 

Think about this from their side of things:
So what if you uniform looks sharp, so you are a neat freak, big deal.
Respect your rank, heck even Clinton abused his position, and TV tells us cops are as crooked as heck.
Yelling, they have no idea.

I've done exactly what you are doing, 13 years ago, preparing our young men and ladies for bootcamp, as they would one day become Marines. I didn't fluff them at all, but started off showing them the Full Metal Jacket movie and we progressed from there. Then I explained to them that bootcamp was much worse, and it was my job to do everything I could to prepare them for this. I told them that I wanted them to be at the top of their class, in order that they would earn a promotion by the end of bootcamp, and that it would also mean more pay and responsibility for them. Once a week they'd come down to the office for several hours of training. Each week they'd have to memorize additional general orders, code of conduct, immediate action for the M16A2, the parts of their rifle, and many more things, just like you would in bootcamp. They were given a civilian "uniform" description they'd have to wear, as well as personal hygiene standards, and we'd have a standard formation inspection. If they failed, they'd be doing pushups, situps, etc. Then we'd march over to the local high school field in formation, with one of the senior poolies barking out the marching commands. There we'd do the typical warm-up exercises, and we'd go do formation runs around town (complete with road guards and guides who carried the guidon). Once a month, we'd take them out for treetop rope drills, confidence course, rifle simulator, live fire, tour a local unit, and bring in Marines from different MOSes to explain what they did, and to relate their experiences. A couple of times a year, we'd have field meets, with the poolies from all the stations within an RS, or basically under one entire MEPS station.

All their recruiters were there with them, to aid during the training, and participate in the event.

We even got most of the young Marines returning from bootcamp, approved to stay with us for a month. They'd participate in the above mention stuff, and often, the poolies knew them from three months before, when they'd left for bootcamp. We'd have these young Marines stand up in front of them during meetings, and let them take questions and relate their personal bootcamp stories to the poolies.

Over time, they'd start to respect themselves, each other, and especially those in uniform much more, once they understood. Their level of motivation would vastly improve, and for the first time for- some of them, someone actually cared about them- and they responded. We even had a few that would come in for a couple of hours daily, asking for more knowledge, training, etc. They even started looking out for each other at school, including helping each other out when studying for tests, at school, or even getting together to cover first-aid during lunchtime.

I'd actually been approached by teachers more than once, who were bewildered by the improvement in our poolies, as students in their classes. One teacher related to me a story about how some students were goofing off in class, and how our young poolie, all of a sudden stood up and went off on the kids, and then explained how school was important to him and the other students- and they were there to learn, and how much of a bunch of worthless dumbasses they really were, messing things up for everyone else. Then he calmly sat down. The teacher had tears over the whole thing, as she herself had often wanted to do the very same thing, but couldn't.

I even had two of my own poolies graduate as company honormen in bootcamp, as well as a few platoon honormen. We had a very low number of them return from bootcamp, and most of those were due to something unfortunate, and we'd get them recuperated, and send them back.

No, I don't agree with the fluff and treating them with kit gloves, as I saw the recruiters from other branches doing. Well, maybe for the Air Force, that might be okay there, since their basic training mainly prepares them for life in the Air Force and how to basically wear a uniform, which is an entirely different ball of wax.

Right, I have been there and done that, thats why I'd asked...and I fully understand your problem. Hopefully a few things I related will help a little in your endeavors and preparing our young men and women for preparing to serve our great Nation.

Semper Fidelis
1986-1998


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## xochi (Dec 5, 2005)

Bradlee said:


> The problem - their rooms had TV's, Computers, Game systems, etc.
> 
> -Brad



Personally, I believe that pop culture and the amount of time that people spend wallowing in unrealistic, marketing inspired bullshi* is the prime culprit. I also wouldn't limit this to just young people but everyone who spends more than 20 minutes a week subjecting themselves to the messages whose prime goal is manipulation of our hearts and minds. When our society is engineered by individuals with profit as their prime motivation we shouldn't be surprised when we turn out individuals who are massively self involved and undisciplined. Fortunately there are still alot of people who recognize the situation and make an effort to avoid compromising core values for the sake of 'fitting in' .


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## Bradlee (Dec 5, 2005)

True enough, xochi.


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## _mike_ (Dec 5, 2005)

Jumpmaster, in some cases your simply fighting an uphill battle with some of these kids. What you are telling them to do is foreign to them. I'm not saying to be understanding or go easy on them, just understand that it's a different world from where we came from. They NEED what you are puting them through, keep going. They enlisted, and now don't want you "hassling" them. Interesting isn't it?

In any case it's a complicated issue, with no single or easy answer. Show me an undisciplined young person and some possible causes could be (but not limited to):

1) Parents who don't parent, want to be their kids friend rather than their parent, coddle too much, make excuses and live in denial that their kid is or has a problem, parent/parents are passive and let the kid abuse them, work too much, are abusive, single, selfish, not around, spoil the child, a mix of all of the above, etc, etc, etc.
2) Long history of never teaching the child accountability and responsibility.
3) Continually being rewarded for poor behavior. 
4) Luck of the draw and the kid is just a dud of a human being.
5) Schools that pass failing students just to get them out of their school.
6) Under funded, under staffed after school and other programs such as: drug prevention, tutoring, mentoring, adult supervised activities.
7) Lack of community support in both dollars and volunteers for the above mentioned programs.

Good luck to you, I know it's not easy. But thanks for doing the job.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 5, 2005)

xochi said:


> Personally, I believe that pop culture and the amount of time that people spend wallowing in unrealistic, marketing inspired bullshi* is the prime culprit. I also wouldn't limit this to just young people but everyone who spends more than 20 minutes a week subjecting themselves to the messages whose prime goal is manipulation of our hearts and minds. When our society is engineered by individuals with profit as their prime motivation we shouldn't be surprised when we turn out individuals who are massively self involved and undisciplined. Fortunately there are still alot of people who recognize the situation and make an effort to avoid compromising core values for the sake of 'fitting in' .


Truer words were never spoken. My thoughts exactly. I personally try to avoid as much exposure to pop culture as possible. In the end it just warps your values. I don't care if I'm up on the latest trends or not. It's really sad that all schools and society are doing is preparing children to be the next generation of consumers.


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## bexteck (Dec 5, 2005)

As a 19 year old college student I definitely have seen my share of "Undisciplined, spoiled brat teenagers". IMHO the cause of this is a lack of parenting from a very young age. I was raised in a very conservative home, and am better off because of it. I was taught to respect my elders, and what is and what is not appropreate behavior. Most of the things I see these people do have never crossed my mind before, they just aren't an option.

On the military note, I have been a boy scout since 2nd grade, and I realize that the things our leaders made us do during training had a purpose, just as the development of disipline in basic training is done for a reason. I do have a good idea of what is appropreate for a superior to ask of me, and figured out a long time ago that all the whining and complaining is a waste of everyone's time, and it is far better to do what is asked of me without questioning it.

I think that if every young person had to go through an experience similar to basic training, we would have a much better behaved and much more useful generation of young people. It also might help America's growing waistline as well.

If I could spare the time, I would definitely go to boot camp or basic training even though I am not planning to enter the military. Unfortunately, engineering is a harsh mistriss and I barely have enough time for sleep as it is.


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## mccavazos (Dec 5, 2005)

I too am a 19 year old engineering student. The majority of my peers seem to fot the exact description that the title of this thread....but not all of them. What I don't understand is why older people hate undisiplined kids so much whne there are tons and tons of undisiplined adults out there as well. I have come across many older people that are unbelivably rude. I was at Fry's on saturday looking at the thumb drives when an elderly man walked up an mentioned under his breath that he was looking for the $20 512MB thumbdrive that they had on sale. I found it and handed it to him. He took ot very curtly, and asked how he was suppossed to get the rebate. I told him very nicely that he would get it at the checkout counter. He walked away saying "Damn kids won't mind their own buisness." under his breath. I would like to know where this hostility comes from. I too cannot tolerate undisiplined teens, but I neither can I tolerate adults of the same type. Just a quick note: this is not directed at ANYONE on this forum, you have all been very nice and very helpful when I have needed it  , and I have tried to be the same way back. I just would like to know why there is such hostility between adults and younger people, when there is an equal amount of disrespect on both sides. :shrug:

Chris


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## Jumpmaster (Dec 5, 2005)

mccavazos said:


> What I don't understand is why older people hate undisiplined kids so much whne there are tons and tons of undisiplined adults out there as well.



Right...so...let's have a thought exercise -- how do you think the "tons and tons of undisciplined adults" got that way?? Do you think they were fine until they turned 18 and then turned into a rude, arrogant sacks of horsesh#$ right there on the spot? No...they started out as undisciplined children.

THAT'S why I hate undisciplined teens...one day, I may find myself on the battlefield with one of them (now, the undisciplined adult) and they could get people killed. One can only hope that basic training will scare some sense into them...I was hoping that, but then I got to AIT and they were all back to their same "back on the block with my 40oz" mentality...trying to get away with whatever they could...pushing the rules...testing authority. The drill sergeants were about 100 times more strict on demanding respect at AIT -- they had to be because of those people testing them constantly.

Funny story...the recruiters told me they would get letters back from their recruits saying the drill sergeants were telling them they would ALL be deployed sooner or later...scaring them silly! They (the recruiters) were saying this to me in disbelief. I said, "And? It's true, Sergeant...they will be deployed..." I can't lie and tell them they won't...basic training will at least be a wakeup call in that respect. They told us this often and told of stories they'd seen...pretty graphic ones that I won't repeat here -- in order to let the less-serious among us know that this is no game and it ain't about the bonuses and college money.

JM-99


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## Malpaso (Dec 5, 2005)

I had Catholic nuns as teachers, starting with kindergarten. I would have preferred a DI instead. Corporal punishement was a given, and somehow my parents knew what I'd done before I even got off the bus going home. Then they doubled the punishment, unlike now when the parents would sue the school system.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 5, 2005)

Malpaso said:


> I had Catholic nuns as teachers, starting with kindergarten. I would have preferred a DI instead. Corporal punishement was a given, and somehow my parents knew what I'd done before I even got off the bus going home. Then they doubled the punishment, unlike now when the parents would sue the school system.


My mom went to a Catholic school taught by nuns. Being rapped on the knuckles with a ruler was quite common from what I understand. Also, we she came home and complained to her mother that the teacher hit her or yelled at her, her mother replied "Good, you probably did something to deserve it". You're right, nowadays the parents would probably sue the school. I don't see corporal punishment as a panacea, but used sparingly it works where all else fails.


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## Sinjz (Dec 5, 2005)

Bradlee said:


> I'm right in that age category you're describing, and I feel the same way. , although I find it's usually only a select few who have no respect. Sadly, without *real* punishment (read spanking, physical repremendation) I don't think the next generation will grow up to be any better.
> 
> I think the real problem is in this new philosophy that a child should be punished by taking away certain privillages. Although I realize that this can sometimes work, I remember quite clearly my fellow students (when I was in elementry school) being sent to their rooms when they were bad. The problem - their rooms had TV's, Computers, Game systems, etc. Kids just don't seem to be facing real consequences for doing bad things these days, and as a result they grow up without learning from their mistakes; they still show disrespect, etc, that should have been **beaten out** when they were young. :shrug:
> 
> -Brad



:whoopin:


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## Icebreak (Dec 5, 2005)

mccavazos -

What an exquisite question. It transcends this thread, yet is completely applicable. I've some immediate responses to it but want to reflect before considering responding. I just thought it was important to point out the high value of the question.

JM-66 -

Some of my buds returned from foreign deployment as Guardsmen a little while back. A few were in command postions. Some of the things they told me...

Thank you for your service.

------------------

- Jeff


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## Sinjz (Dec 5, 2005)

To answer mccavazos's question very simply.

I can say and do things to adults I can not to someone else' child. Look at a kid cross-eyed and thier parents will sue you for abusing thier child and want millions.


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## Icebreak (Dec 5, 2005)

Trying to remember. When I was sixteen I'm at a parts counter at a big VW dealership. Total stinky ******* with box-o-parts slides laterally though two lines of customers and physically jacks my young butt out of his way. I was po'ed at him for doing it and felt powerless to whip him for doing it. Can't whip an adult, right? I remember being more po'ed at the dude behind the counter for acknowledging the ******* and discounting my existence than I was at the stinky *******.

Maybe from the teenager's point a view it can be rights/responsibility thing. They are given heavy responsibilities but receive a disproportionate amount of rights.


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## tvodrd (Dec 5, 2005)

USMC induction, c1967: Outta the bus, feet on the painted yellow footprints on the pavement, prior to being run through the #0 buzz haircut. Into a large room to box-up everything including your wristwatch, and have it shipped home at your expense. Into a line for getting "issued" some boots, a yellow sweatshirt and some "utiility" trousers that sorta fit. Next, meet your DIs/"mothers" for the next 3 months! Zero sleep the first night! It was all downhill from there! 

It serves a purpose- You realize what can be tolerated and some personal disicipline you either didn't know you had, or learned rather quickly! Those who failed to learn _paaid!_

You get taught stuff that, ultimately, improves the chances of survival for yourself and friends in mortal combat.

Things have changed today, and we didn't have the "crucible." I have no doubt that basic training today is as good as it was then! (Political correctness aside!)

Larry


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## mccavazos (Dec 6, 2005)

Sinjz said:


> To answer mccavazos's question very simply.
> 
> I can say and do things to adults I can not to someone else' child. Look at a kid cross-eyed and thier parents will sue you for abusing thier child and want millions.




Hahaha thats great and true. :laughing: 
Too bad though, in most cases.

Anyway, just a few more comments. We went to the rainforest cafe for a friend of mines brithday. Me and two other friends (his brothers) arrived there 10 minutes before him and his parents. His parents had instructed us to get our reserved table so that we would meet the time of the reservation. THey told us that we could not be seated because there was only three of us, and the reservation was for eight. This is total BS, they only said that because we looked like a bunch of kids (I suffer from baby face syndrome (19 and still no facial har)) . I realize that I am only 19 and do not have the experience and wisdon of the older folk, but I see myself as an adult, and I try my best to get peoples respect. Anyway, when his parents arrived the three of them went up without us, to the same guy and were seated. It happens all of the time to us, trying to take stuff back to Best Buy, they told me that they could not accept it without a reciept even thoigh it was still in the original packaging and in the shrink wrap with their price sticker on it. They even tried to tell me that it wasn't the shrink wrap that they used, and I had bought it there myself. My dad went up their to the same register and had store credit in 5 minutes, when I had spent 3 hours arguing with the guy earlier that day. Off rant for now: I think that the majority of these bratty disrespectful kids, are just that. But there are probably many of them that are just treated like crap by people that assume that they are all that way. Now this is in no way an exuse for that kind of behavior, but it is a probable cause. I am honostly tired of being treated like I am a punk-a**hole kid, when I have done nothing to deserve that. I honostly try to help people when I can. Sorry for changing topic, I just felt the need for a vent.


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## offroadcmpr (Dec 6, 2005)

I think the parents have a lot to do with it. I grew up in a relatively wealthy neighborhood where kids were really spoiled. It wasn't uncommon for a parent to buy his sone or daughter a new BMW or mercedes when they turned 16. When they crashed it, some of them would get a new one! Or the girl that started crying because her parents bought here a white new ford explorer instead of a silver one! It drove me nuts. None of them would take responsibility for themselves.

Another big problem is that they will in no ways admit that they are wrong. Their idea of a good teacher is one that has no regards for the rules. If a teacher enforces school rules in class, he is considered the worse teacher they have and start cussing him or her out. Even when they are acting up in class, doing things that they are not supposed to be doing and get caught. "I didn't do anything and my teacher gave me detention" They think that they did nothing wrong, and the teacher is horrible for doing that to them.

Or I hate how some people could not be quiet if their life depended on it. They go over their limit on their cell phone, which had hundreds of minutes to start out with. When the teacher is trying to get everyone to quiet down in class, it just does not seem possible for them to shut their mouth for two minutes! 

I think a lot of them are in for a real shock when they live on their own. One of my teachers used to really upset some of the people in our class my doing a little project. They would tell him what they wanted to do when they were done with school. He would then find out the average salary and determine that with expenses, they would not even be able to live in our city, even in the cheapest apartments, let alone eating out every day, having a closet full of $180 pairs of designer jeans and so on.

I think there are a lot of people that could use a good boot camp to make them realize that they are not the center of the universe.

Sorry for the ran
(by the way I am 18)


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## KevinL (Dec 6, 2005)

Some good points made by all. 

I agree with the two posts above mine that it's hard to live in a world and play nice when your kind is stereotyped because others are tarring you with that brush. 

I think what Jarhead/Newbie (far from a newbie actually) is trying to say is that while on their end, they need to wake up their idea, we need to find new ways of engaging them. I've looked at what I do and I realize part of my frustration comes from not being able to engage these people and help them to see the light. Many times it isn't a fair exchange, we do the legwork to help them, but in the long run it achieves the results we are after. I respect you, because when you had every right to give it to them the hard way, you chose not to - that would have been the easier way - but you found a much better way, something not many others can do, myself included.


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## newo (Dec 6, 2005)

Jumpmaster said:


> I The vast majority of the 17-21 year-olds I was in training with were just the most undisciplined, spoiled brats you've ever seen -- but that was corrected during the first week or so of basic.
> JM-99



JM - I spent a number of years earlier in life as an active duty, regular officer JAG, much of it overseas. I tried, as prosecution or defense counsel, approximately 300 courts-martial, and more administrative discharge boards than I can count. In short, for part of my professional life I dealt with some of the system's "failures" - or at least those whose stupidity and lack of discipline didn't get them killed or crippled, that is. And these were people who had survived basic, and whatever other follow-on training their career field dictated.

Based on that experience, I have a couple of observations. 

The purpose of basic training is to take undisciplined boys, turn them into men, and then turn those men into disciplined soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen. 

It is done in the way that it is because history has shown us that this is what works. And until such time as the little villains that you are babysitting are subjected to that process, you are stuck with a bunch of undisciplined boys. (Probably some girls, too, who frequently are worse.) Expecting these children to behave, and comport themselves, like disciplined troops is, therefore, expecting too much.

You have for whatever reason been condemned, for the time being, to serve in the role of herding turkeys, and it would probably help to think of it that way. Helping get your miscreants into better physical shape before they go to basic is probably going to be the best, and most constructive, thing that you can do to, and for, them at this point. And it will keep them occupied.

Try to not let this make you crazy. This period shall pass, and better duty no doubt awaits you down the road. 

Think of all of this as paying your dues. Good luck. 

And thank you for your service.


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## Sinjz (Dec 6, 2005)

mccavazos said:


> Hahaha thats great and true. :laughing:
> Too bad though, in most cases.
> 
> Anyway, just a few more comments. We went to the rainforest cafe for a friend of mines brithday. Me and two other friends (his brothers) arrived there 10 minutes before him and his parents. His parents had instructed us to get our reserved table so that we would meet the time of the reservation. THey told us that we could not be seated because there was only three of us, and the reservation was for eight. This is total BS, they only said that because we looked like a bunch of kids (I suffer from baby face syndrome (19 and still no facial har)) . I realize that I am only 19 and do not have the experience and wisdon of the older folk, but I see myself as an adult, and I try my best to get peoples respect. Anyway, when his parents arrived the three of them went up without us, to the same guy and were seated. It happens all of the time to us, trying to take stuff back to Best Buy, they told me that they could not accept it without a reciept even thoigh it was still in the original packaging and in the shrink wrap with their price sticker on it. They even tried to tell me that it wasn't the shrink wrap that they used, and I had bought it there myself. My dad went up their to the same register and had store credit in 5 minutes, when I had spent 3 hours arguing with the guy earlier that day. Off rant for now: I think that the majority of these bratty disrespectful kids, are just that. But there are probably many of them that are just treated like crap by people that assume that they are all that way. Now this is in no way an exuse for that kind of behavior, but it is a probable cause. I am honostly tired of being treated like I am a punk-a**hole kid, when I have done nothing to deserve that. I honostly try to help people when I can. Sorry for changing topic, I just felt the need for a vent.



Well for the resturant, its common not to seat you unless your whole party is there (or at least the large majority of it), especially if it's a busy resturant. Are you sure the parents didn't give the same last name and the hostess didn't recognize that name and knew several people of that party were already here? Even if they were being dumb, I would think it has more with weather or not you look like you can put down a nice tip than if you were a kid or not. I suspect if Hillary Duff walked in, instant table. If a 50 y/o bum walked it, he'll get escorted out. Obvious extremes examples, but I think you may be taking slight where there may not be any. Not for the reasons you think anyway. How were you dressed? As for the Best Buy example, you're not suppose to be able to return stuff without a receipt. I bet your father just overwhelmed the guy with logic like how the BB sticker was still on it.  I doubt he got all pissy or bratty with the guy. How do they know you didn't just grab it off the shelf and took it up to the customer service desk for a return? Again how were you dressed? Of course customer service at these type of stores usually suck regardless.... 

I think it all comes down to what bradlee said; There are no consequences for most of these kids. They get away with being stupid, so they stay stupid.

Anybody remember that story, I think a year ago, where some kid (8 y/o?) was being disruptive in school , even hitting and spitting on a teacher. She was so unruly and uncontrollable , the cops were called. The cops come in and put the kid in handcuff to keep her from hitting people while they figure out what's going on. The parents got the cops got fired.  If she were an adult going crazy in school, the cops could of thrown her down and hog tied her and the teacher could of sued her for assault....


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## mobile1 (Dec 6, 2005)

When I was young we never wore helmets when riding a bike or skiing, we simply just were kids. Today things are a bit over protected to my opinion... and as a result you end up with kids like that.


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## mccavazos (Dec 6, 2005)

Sinjz said:


> Well for the resturant, its common not to seat you unless your whole party is there (or at least the large majority of it), especially if it's a busy resturant. Are you sure the parents didn't give the same last name and the hostess didn't recognize that name and knew several people of that party were already here? Even if they were being dumb, I would think it has more with weather or not you look like you can put down a nice tip than if you were a kid or not. I suspect if Hillary Duff walked in, instant table. If a 50 y/o bum walked it, he'll get escorted out. Obvious extremes examples, but I think you may be taking slight where there may not be any. Not for the reasons you think anyway. How were you dressed? As for the Best Buy example, you're not suppose to be able to return stuff without a receipt. I bet your father just overwhelmed the guy with logic like how the BB sticker was still on it.  I doubt he got all pissy or bratty with the guy. How do they know you didn't just grab it off the shelf and took it up to the customer service desk for a return? Again how were you dressed? Of course customer service at these type of stores usually suck regardless....
> 
> I think it all comes down to what bradlee said; There are no consequences for most of these kids. They get away with being stupid, so they stay stupid.
> 
> Anybody remember that story, I think a year ago, where some kid (8 y/o?) was being disruptive in school , even hitting and spitting on a teacher. She was so unruly and uncontrollable , the cops were called. The cops come in and put the kid in handcuff to keep her from hitting people while they figure out what's going on. The parents got the cops got fired.  If she were an adult going crazy in school, the cops could of thrown her down and hog tied her and the teacher could of sued her for assault....



THe resturant thing may have been that way, but We gave the name Deb, and they his Dad gave the last name. As for Best BUy, My dad didn't say anything other than he wanted to take it back. I had just come in town from college, and had to give apresntation, so I was in a nice shirt and slacks. When we walked in teh store the guy at teh door gave us a pink sticker that indicated that we had walked in with the software so as to be evidence that I did not steal it. At teh resturant I was just wearing khakis and a tshirt. I guess that I could be just over exagerating things in my head. Oh well. Thanks for the insight, and yess all return policies blow. Except for target, they have always been very nice to work with.

THanks,
Chris


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## Sigman (Dec 6, 2005)

newo said:


> ...The purpose of basic training is to take undisciplined boys, turn them into men, and then turn those men into disciplined soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen.
> 
> It is done in the way that it is because history has shown us that this is what works. And until such time as the little villains that you are babysitting are subjected to that process, you are stuck with a bunch of undisciplined boys. (Probably some girls, too, who frequently are worse.) Expecting these children to behave, and comport themselves, like disciplined troops is, therefore, expecting too much.
> 
> ...


Well said!! Love the turkey analogy! :thumbsup:


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## matt_j (Dec 6, 2005)

So they do their basic than go home for however long and than go back to AIT? or AIT follows basic just like in RA?


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## Jumpmaster (Dec 6, 2005)

matt_j said:


> So they do their basic than go home for however long and than go back to AIT? or AIT follows basic just like in RA?



Well...the National Guard (AFAIK) is the only service that has this program. When National Guard enlistees sign up, they're in the NG right then and there. They attend these drills with other enlistees and get paid for their weekend...even before shipping to basic training.

As far as doing basic then going home and going back to AIT, yes...that's called "Split Option" and any component (RA, NG, or Reserve) enlistee has this option...it's usually restricted to high school students though so they attend basic between their junior and senior year...then AIT after they graduate high school.

Most people go straight through from Basic to AIT. Sometimes, basic and AIT is combined and you will be with the same soldiers (and Drill Sergeants) throughout training. This is called One Station Unit Training (OSUT). Only certain MOS's have OSUT.

Confused? 

Thanks for the support, everyone!

JM-99


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## PEU (Dec 6, 2005)

I have an almost 4 kid (the one right to my name ). 

You start noticing that you do good job in early education when other parents notice the differences between your kid and theirs. 

For example since age 3ish my kid knows and uses the word Please and Thank you, and believe me if it werent unpolite I would take a picture of the other parents faces when they hear that 

A kid in his early years must MUST MUUUUST know the meaning of the word "NO" and know what things are OK and what are off limits, if you don't teach that, then Im sure you will have kids as described in previous posts.

I dont agree with parents being friends of their kids, maybe on adulthood, but when child it does more harm than good.

The kids must learn to understand limits, for example, they must know they can't have all the toys they see on TV or the ones their friends have, some yes, not all.

I think that if you give them all that they want, they learn not to value anything, and thats a safe route to be a problem when teenage.

Anyway, Im sure this toughts of mine aren't native of Argentina, but are universal, all the parents know them, but only a portion applies them too...


Pablo


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## Arkayne (Dec 8, 2005)

xochi said:


> Personally, I believe that pop culture and the amount of time that people spend wallowing in unrealistic, marketing inspired bullshi* is the prime culprit. I also wouldn't limit this to just young people but everyone who spends more than 20 minutes a week subjecting themselves to the messages whose prime goal is manipulation of our hearts and minds. When our society is engineered by individuals with profit as their prime motivation we shouldn't be surprised when we turn out individuals who are massively self involved and undisciplined. Fortunately there are still alot of people who recognize the situation and make an effort to avoid compromising core values for the sake of 'fitting in' .



You took the words right out of my mouth. Preach on!


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## tvodrd (Dec 8, 2005)

:thumbsup: Pablo!

Larry


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## Santelmo (Dec 8, 2005)

Jumpmaster said:


> So I've become an instructor in the National Guard -- we prepare the new enlistees to ship to basic training or return to AIT. The goal is to prepare them mentally and physically for the training environment they'll be in at the training installation.
> 
> Turns out, some of them don't like me too well!  They're angry with me because I tell them to do things like...I don't know...TURN THEIR CELL PHONES OFF DURING FORMATION AND LIGHTS OUT! Or...for telling them not to move or talk at the position of attention. Or for telling them to be quiet when they come into the room talking loudly while people are trying to sleep already. You know...pretty basic things. (BTW, they are not allowed to have cell phones at all during basic training...under penalty of UCMJ. If it were up to me, it'd be the same way here -- they need to focus on training -- not flirting with their recruiter over the phone.)
> 
> ...



From someone who was never able to enter the military academy because of his bad eyes (the admissions of officer took one look at my glasses and said: "With those eyes?! Hell no!") but later on became "Cadet of the Year" at ROTC ---

GOOD ON YA, SIR! (Then gives a snappy cyber-salute, chest out, gut in)


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## ikendu (Dec 9, 2005)

Jumpmaster said:


> ...And my rank?



In the military, this has to be enough. Period. Can't work any other way.


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