# Need some Basic 18650 advice



## tubed (Aug 30, 2012)

I would really appreciate some help with a few questions about 18650s. I don't use my lights too heavily and therefore been sticking with cr123 primaries as the initial start up cost and complexity of 18650s has seemed excessive. I'm now thinking of taking the plunge on 2 18650s and a charger. I would use them for 3 different lights (possibly). 
1. my Sunwayman T40cs
2. thinking of getting Sunwayman C20c and 
3.a cheap (but powerful) Romison RC-T60 from SB.

I"ve found many of the small but powerful lights I'm interested in lately only seem to reach their potential with rechargeables (esp Sunwayman products).

Questions:
1. The most recommended battery is the AW but it comes in several different "mah" (2300, 2900, 3100) Which of these should I get?
2. Given how little i will use them would I be ok with less expensive ones (i.e Tenergy or Jetbeam)?
2. Although Pila chargers seem the best recommended- the recently reviewed Nitecore intellicharger seems quite good and is less expensive, thoughts?
3. If not used frequently, how much do they lose their charge over the months? Any storage concerns?
4. "protected" 18650s seem recommended, yet I don't even see those sold on most of the sites i'm going to (Goinggear,BatJunc) at least it doesn't say protected in the product description. Is that really necessary for a non-heavy user (trying to avoid even more expense).

Lastly - given that one Nitecore Intellicharger and 2 AWs will run me over $60 should I even bother? or just stick with CR123s


----------



## Shadowww (Aug 30, 2012)

tubed said:


> Questions:
> 1. The most recommended battery is the AW but it comes in several different "mah" (2300, 2900, 3100) Which of these should I get?


Currently best value is provided by 2600mAh ones (by the way, compared to 3100mAh ones they hold higher voltage and therefore offer flatter regulation in single-cell lights)


tubed said:


> 2. Given how little i will use them would I be ok with less expensive ones (i.e Tenergy or Jetbeam)?


You can get pair of Intl-Outdoor Store 2600mAh batteries for $18, they perform a bit better than 2 times more expensive AW's:







tubed said:


> 2. Although Pila chargers seem the best recommended- the recently reviewed Nitecore intellicharger seems quite good and is less expensive, thoughts?


If you want a good CC/CV charger, I'd recommend Xtar SP2. It is both cheaper & better than Pila IBC.
It also supports very-high 2A charging current, which can be quite useful for IMR 18650's, 26650's, and normal 18650's if you're in hurry (but don't use it with normal 18650's often, it'll wear them out. Normally they should be charged at 1A).


tubed said:


> 3. If not used frequently, how much do they lose their charge over the months? Any storage concerns?


High-quality Li-Ion will retain over 80% (and sometimes even 90%) of charge after year of storage.


tubed said:


> 4. "protected" 18650s seem recommended, yet I don't even see those sold on most of the sites i'm going to (Goinggear,BatJunc) at least it doesn't say protected in the product description. Is that really necessary for a non-heavy user (trying to avoid even more expense).


In multi-cell lights, protected cells are a must, in single-cell lights you can get away with using unprotected ones if you have good quality charger, and your light has low-voltage cut-off.


tubed said:


> Lastly - given that one Nitecore Intellicharger and 2 AWs will run me over $60 should I even bother? or just stick with CR123s


Pair of Intl-Outdoor Store 2600mAh's + Xtar SP2 will run you $50, or pair of same batteries + Xtar WP2 II (very good charger, too) would run you just $35.


----------



## rustlerdudr987 (Aug 30, 2012)

1. mah stands for Milli-amps and hour so that is basically how long they will last so its up to you on that one.
2. yes it really doesn't matter which ones to use but make sure they have some sort of protection circuit in them.
3. really hard to say because it depends on the battery (ie. quality and capacity).
4. it is STRONGLY recommended to get protected i found a couple on goinggear that are good and cheap that are protected so i will pm you the link as im not aloud to link to outside sales.
5. i will pm you some decent cheap but quality batteries and chargers.


----------



## tubed (Aug 30, 2012)

Thanks very much Shadoww!

So- are those AW batteries i'm seeing on GoingGear, etc protected ones or not?
What is being protected? the light or the battery?
I'll check out those chargers.


----------



## rustlerdudr987 (Aug 30, 2012)

tubed said:


> I'll check out those chargers.



the battery from being over-discharged or overcharged and i believe they are protected because the label says protection built-in


----------



## tubed (Aug 30, 2012)

Thanks rustlerdudr.


----------



## rustlerdudr987 (Aug 30, 2012)

did you check your private messages?


----------



## tubed (Aug 30, 2012)

Just did - thanks. 
Funny - those Eagletac batteries look just like the AW batteries - they're like half the price
I could do your whole setup (2 eagletacs, 1 Xtar charger) for almost half of what i was looking at
I still might go with the Nitecore charger (only a few bucks more) b/c it can charge all sorts of other batterie. time to charge is not an issue for me
appreciate the help


----------



## rustlerdudr987 (Aug 30, 2012)

yeah no problem and by the way those Eagletac batteries are really the Panasonic cells just relabeled. and the charger charges *14500/ 14650/ 17670/ 18500/ 18650/ 18700/ 10440/16340 *but i dont believe it does cr123a if that is what you were thinking of.


----------



## Shadowww (Aug 30, 2012)

tubed said:


> Just did - thanks.
> Funny - those Eagletac batteries look just like the AW batteries - they're like half the price


That's because they're not overpriced.
AW batteries are like Apple laptops.. not better, just more expensive.


----------



## rustlerdudr987 (Aug 30, 2012)

Shadowww said:


> That's because they're not overpriced.
> AW batteries are like Apple laptops.. not better, just more expensive.


I love that analogy :twothumbs


----------



## CamoNinja (Aug 30, 2012)

Go with the eagletac 3100's. No need to spend AW's high prices. I personally use the Pila charger but the Xstar seems to get good reviews.


----------



## sidecross (Aug 30, 2012)

I have two Nitecore i4 version 2 chargers and 10 Eagletac 3100mAh batteries; I like the lower charge current current of the Nitecore and have enough batteries to allow for the slower charge rate.

I would also recomend checking voltage on any rechargable battery for longer life span of the battery. Voltage drop below 3.5 volts will shorten the life of rechargable batteries.


----------



## tubed (Aug 31, 2012)

sidecross said:


> I have two Nitecore i4 version 2 chargers and 10 Eagletac 3100mAh batteries; I like the lower charge current current of the Nitecore and have enough batteries to allow for the slower charge rate.
> 
> I would also recomend checking voltage on any rechargable battery for longer life span of the battery. Voltage drop below 3.5 volts will shorten the life of rechargable batteries.



Thanks - do you think the bar-style lights on the charger would be sufficient to (somewhat) check voltages?
Also - Is it bad to partially discharge then recharge these lights? I've heard that for some batteries (like computers, cell phones) it's good to have periodic full discharges to recondition the battery. Does that apply to these? Sounds like the answer is no.


----------



## tubed (Aug 31, 2012)

As a side note- i came across thread on this sub forum last night that was a bit creepy. Its about a guy who had some primary CR123s blow up on him. I currently use a lot of those batteries and, in my Sunwayman T40, i have 4 of them. I've since read up on all the safe things to do to try to prevent that stuff. 

I'm left a bit disappointed (i'm relatively new to these lights/batteries). I thought one of the great things about lithium batteries was their long shelf life and lack of leaking (unlike Alkalines) Now I learn that they have their own set of problems and need for changing, etc. I have several lights that sit around for long times unused and thought i could just forget about them until needed. 

I'm not going back to Alkalines but, frankly, I 'd rather have a battery leak then explode.

Any thoughts from anyone on the best battery type for leaving in a light for a long time period?


----------



## MaStAViC (Aug 31, 2012)

*Where can I get two 18650 batteries and a charger?*

Hello, I hope you are doing well.

I am looking for two 18650 batteries and a charger for them. Can someone recommend an inexpensive set that is of decent quality? Thank you.


----------



## Mr.Sun (Aug 31, 2012)

Very, very interesting . Last week I was doing some forum searches and got some bits of this same info, sorta scattered though  . 

Great group and lots of very knowledgeable folks !!


----------



## sidecross (Aug 31, 2012)

tubed said:


> Thanks - do you think the bar-style lights on the charger would be sufficient to (somewhat) check voltages?
> 
> Also - Is it bad to partially discharge then recharge these lights? I've heard that for some batteries (like computers, cell phones) it's good to have periodic full discharges to recondition the battery. Does that apply to these? Sounds like the answer is no.


 
I use an inexpensive digital voltmeter to check my battery voltage.

Yes, your deduction is correct 18650 should never be fully discharged. Protected 18650 cut off at 2.5 volts, but many feel this is to low a voltage to obtain the best value of the 18650 battery.


----------



## Shadowww (Aug 31, 2012)

tubed said:


> Also - Is it bad to partially discharge then recharge these lights? I've heard that for some batteries (like computers, cell phones) it's good to have periodic full discharges to recondition the battery. Does that apply to these? Sounds like the answer is no.


Periodic full discharges are harmful to ANY modern devices such as notebooks and cellphones. They have Li-Ion cells inside, to which such thing as "reconditioning" doesn't applies.


----------



## Changchung (Aug 31, 2012)

Check the battery section, a lot of info there, a lot a thread like yours... Good luck...


SFMI4UT


----------



## HotWire (Aug 31, 2012)

*Re: Where can I get two 18650 batteries and a charger?*

Also... check the MarketPlace. Batteries and chargers are usually available there.


----------



## Jhovorka (Aug 31, 2012)

*Re: Where can I get two 18650 batteries and a charger?*

I've just started using EagleTac 18650's, been happy so far. For a charger I'm using the JetBeam Intellicharger, just because I'm pretty new to the rechargeables and it can handle most of them. It's worked fine for me so far but like I said I'm pretty new so I'll update if any issues arise.


----------



## Flashlight Dave (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: Where can I get two 18650 batteries and a charger?*

Believe it or not Bass Pro carries them. They had 18650s and 18500s. I would not recommend them. Maybe Battery Junction AW brand.


----------



## Monocrom (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: Where can I get two 18650 batteries and a charger?*

Lighthound.com

Well-earned reputation for absolutely excellent customer service.


----------



## LAB (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: Where can I get two 18650 batteries and a charger?*

I bought this set and am well pleased. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004FOUNWW/?tag=cpf0b6-20


----------



## jmpaul320 (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: Where can I get two 18650 batteries and a charger?*

inexpensive good cells are sanyo 2600mah from intl outdoor, hank also sells a charger for around ~3 or 4$ i think that will charge them... so you could get 2x batteries and a charger and registered shipping for about ~20$ from there

if you want higher capacity cells ric sells panasonic 3400mah cells for like $21 a pair on cnq quality goods

both of those cells are unprotected and are shipped from overseas

if you want something from the usa check out lighthound or orbtronic but be prepared to pay a little more


----------



## lwknight (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: Where can I get two 18650 batteries and a charger?*

You said , " inexpensive and descent quality" The ultrafire 2400 and 2600mah cells are pretty good stuff at around $9.00 each or less. Avoid the ultrafire 3000 like a plague ( at 2 for $4.95 on Amazon what do you expect). 
You can get really good protected cells for just a little more like Eagletac 3100 I think $15.00 at goinggear or illuminationgear.com
The Xtar wpII is only a few bucks more than the so-so chargers and its highly recommended.
also batteryjunction.com is a good place to bargain shop.


----------



## roadkill1109 (Sep 2, 2012)

tubed said:


> I would really appreciate some help with a few questions about 18650s. I don't use my lights too heavily and therefore been sticking with cr123 primaries as the initial start up cost and complexity of 18650s has seemed excessive. I'm now thinking of taking the plunge on 2 18650s and a charger. I would use them for 3 different lights (possibly).
> 1. my Sunwayman T40cs
> 2. thinking of getting Sunwayman C20c and
> 3.a cheap (but powerful) Romison RC-T60 from SB.
> ...



Answers: (just sharing)
1. AW's are like the Rolls-Royce of 18650's. Its up there in terms of build quality. What capacity depends on the current drain of the lights you own. For the T40CS, the 3100's would have the best runtime for this light. C20C's okay with lower capacity, but if you can, get the highest one for better runtime. Same with the Romisen.
2. Well, since its an investment, dont get too cheap cells, you almost always get what you paid for. These cells have exceptionally long LSD (low self-discharge) so storing them for long periods would result in very minimal drop in voltage. But you should try to avoid letting them stagnate in storage, they need the "exercise" too. Good drain-charge cycles from time to time keep them in tip-top shape and ready for when you need them in an emergency.
2. Any charger will do, the more expensive ones have more features, some have USB charging capabilities, etc.
3. I've seen drops of about 0.02 0.01 over a period of three to four months, and these are cells which are plugged into flashlights, so there's a bit of a parasitic drain when left inside the lights. Store them in a cool dry location, no temperature extremes.
4. Protected are usually recommended if you'd like to pay little attention to the battery and just run them til the protection kicks in. For regular unprotected 18650's you just have to be constantly aware that if you run the light to drain the 18650's power to below 2.75 volts, you run the risk of bricking your battery and it wont charge anymore.

I think that unprotected 18650 cells have the lowest self-discharge of all due to the fact that there's no "circuitry" hanging on to the light which could cause minor load to the cell and drain it a little bit over a period of time. (but that's just my idea of the matter)


----------



## mauiblue (Sep 3, 2012)

*Re: Where can I get two 18650 batteries and a charger?*

Pila charger has only two bays which is perfect for your needs. I like to use Redilast or Callie Customs for my 18650 needs. I know you said inexpensive but in my opinion it is worth paying extra now.

If you want cheap, Ultrafire and whatever the charger they match it with on Amazon is the way to go.


----------



## 45/70 (Sep 3, 2012)

roadkill1109 said:


> These cells have exceptionally long LSD (low self-discharge) so storing them for long periods would result in very minimal drop in voltage. *But you should try to avoid letting them stagnate in storage, they need the "exercise" too.* Good drain-charge cycles from time to time keep them in tip-top shape and ready for when you need them in an emergency.



Hi roadkill. While I agree that cells should be used, rather than stored , the idea that they should be "exercised" to keep them in good condition is an idea which is a leftover from NiCd/NiMh maintenance practices, and does not apply to any Li-Ion cell chemistry. There are no benefits to deep discharging, or exercising Li-Ion cells, nor is it necessary. It only results in adding more wear to the cells. Here is an excerpt pertaining to prolonging Li-Ion cell longevity from Battery University.



> Similar to a mechanical device that wears out faster with heavy use, so also does the depth of discharge (DoD) determine the cycle count. The shorter the discharge (low DoD), the longer the battery will last. If at all possible, avoid full discharges and charge the battery more often between uses. Partial discharge on Li-ion is fine; there is no memory and the battery does not need periodic full discharge cycles to prolong life, other than to calibrate the fuel gauge on a smart battery once in a while.



As mentioned, it may be necessary to more or less, fully discharge a "smart" Li-Ion battery pack, used in a consumer device, so as to recalibrate the "fuel level" gauge in such devices. However, deep cycling, or exercising Li-Ion cells, or batteries for any other intended purpose only serves to wear the cells out, as nothing is gained from doing so.

Dave


----------



## roadkill1109 (Sep 3, 2012)

so you mean rotating the lithium ions cells will not prolong their life but just let them get worn out at the same time? so its best to just use one cell over and over until it dies?


----------



## sidecross (Sep 3, 2012)

I am learning about these new batteries and their workings and it is from my current understanding that the number of 'reserve rechargeable batteries’ would depend on how long your use would be. 

If no ability to recharge due to no electrical power due to a power outage then having an amble number of batteries in reserve becomes a concern to think out.

I have 10 Eagletac 18650 3100mAh batteries as back up and will check their voltage every three months with the hope that every six months would be the time to recharge the ones that have not yet been used in rotation.

I still have 48 123 Surefire batteries stored in ideal conditions.


----------



## roadkill1109 (Sep 3, 2012)

well, i rotate 5 14500's with my Quark AA. I usually go through all 5 in rotation in a period of about two weeks, sometimes three, where the latest spent one gets charged immediately when i get home, then goes at the back of the line in the rotation.

It was my belief that if you spread out the charging of the cells over all your stash of cells, you'd make your batteries last longer as you dont just keep charging just one over and over every couple of days.

It is true that lithium-ions are different animals to niMH and NiCd, but isnt the concept the same to extend the lifespan of your batteries? Coz on paper they are just good to about 500 charging cycles each, right?


----------



## 45/70 (Sep 3, 2012)

roadkill1109 said:


> so you mean rotating the lithium ions cells will not prolong their life but just let them get worn out at the same time? so its best to just use one cell over and over until it dies?



I wasn't addressing cell rotation. Any of us with a large amount of cells, do that. My point was that the practice of deep cycling cells occasionally, or "exercising" them to keep them in "tip-top shape" only applies to NiCd/NiMh cells. Applying these maintenance functions to Li-Ion cells is unnecessary, and serves only to add wear to the cells, without any benefit.

Also, if you are going to store Li-Ion cells, it's best to not recharge them before storage, unless they are deeply discharged. There is a chart on the Battery University page I linked to previously, showing the effects of storing Li-Ion cells fully charged vs. partially charged, and at different temperatures.

I store my unused Li-Ion cells at 35-40F in the Fridge at an approximate 40% state of charge. I have cells that are 7 years old that still hold voltage well under load, charge to 90% of their original capacity, and have minimal self discharge, utilizing this practice. Of course, for those that only have a few cells for their lights, these storage practices may not be practical.

Dave


----------



## roadkill1109 (Sep 4, 2012)

ok ok! i stand corrected. happy?  hahaha...

But you are inaccurate with the Lacrosse charger about the discharge rate, if you set it to charge/discharge it will discharge at half the rate you set it to charge. So if its at its lowest at 200 charging, it will discharge at 100. on 500, 250 on 700, 350. If i need to fast charge a battery i use a different fast charger (also small and easily pocketable, but the cool thing about this faster charger is that it has a built-in fan in the base of the charger which cools the cells which are fast charging (because fast charge/refresh are the only functions it has) That's why when i discharge my 2800mAh AA cells, it takes about three days for a full discharge prior to charging it (for almost two days). Plus when the cycle finishes it shows the actual load capacity left on the old cell, nifty feature.  Lastly, I normally just charge at the minimum 200 level, for a smooth, gentle charge. The cells hardly get any warm. hehe

road out!


----------



## 45/70 (Sep 7, 2012)

roadkill1109 said:


> But you are inaccurate with the Lacrosse charger about the discharge rate, if you set it to charge/discharge it will discharge at half the rate you set it to charge. So if its at its lowest at 200 charging, it will discharge at 100. on 500, 250 on 700, 350.



Hi roady. I think maybe you actually meant to post this in this thread, So I'll keep it as breif as possible.

Both the La Crosse and Maha chargers utilize PWM when discharging cells. The La Crosse chargers utilize a 500mA base discharge current, and the C9000 a 1000mA base current. This means that when a cell is discharged at a 200mA rate, the La Crosse is discharging the cell at 500mA, 40% of the time, and the C9000 at 1000mA, 20% of the time. Due to this difference, the La crosse chargers will actully more completely discharge cells at lower discharge rates. This was my point, favoring the La Crosse chargers.

Also, I would be carefull charging AA cells at a 200mA rate, in a charger that relies primarily on -dV charge termination. While a 200mA rate _should be OK_ (typically ~ 0.1C for AA cells), I've noticed cells get quite warm in the La Crosse when -dv termination is missed. This is likely due to the cells being so close together. IMO you'd be better off charging at 700mA minimum, so as to provide a stronger -dV signal. I've had this charger miss termination once charging AAs at 500mA, but it did work most of the time, but I would definitely avoid the 200mA rate, when charging AA cells.

Dave


----------



## FenixFan1996 (Sep 17, 2012)

*What is your recommended rechargeable battery and charger for the fenix tk21?*

Hey guys,

N00B question. What rechargeable batteries and charger would you recommend for a tk21? 

Thanks


----------



## TEEJ (Sep 17, 2012)

*Re: What is your recommended rechargeable battery and charger for the fenix tk21?*



FenixFan1996 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> N00B question. What rechargeable batteries and charger would you recommend for a tk21?
> 
> Thanks




Did you plan on running it on one 18650, or 2 RCR123A's? (Do you already have any cells, etc?)

And, would you use it a lot, so that run time is important....perhaps how many hours a day or at a time would help.


----------



## Redhans (Sep 17, 2012)

*Lotsa thoughts for one who needs help*

You need to find your own bargains. I like Ebay. Other posters mentioned some good sites too. But I shall digress on brands, both online and “big box”.

Personally, I buy with confidence ANY cell/ cell charger from reputable companies: XTAR, Jetbeam, Fenix, Nitecore. These companies have a stellar reputation as flashlight manufacturers and so their cells/chargers are undoubtedly a consistent, quality product. I would be happy with ANY cheap-a$$ XTAR charger, simply find the one you like.

There are a number of manufacturers that have a reputation for quality: AW, Callies Kustoms, Intl-Outdoor, Keeppower, Orbtronic, Redilast, AmpMax, EagleTac, Enerpower, 4Greer. From what I have read of others experiences, these companies have a very consistent, quality product (just like the major manufacturers listed in the above paragraph).

Thats a lot of choices for good protected cells. There are also Soshine cells, which I think are okay but about which I know little. Same with Tenergy. They may be good, but I don’t know. Also, Yezl is an intriguing bargain brand but I simply have too little knowledge to recommend any of these cheap-o cells. Perhaps you can find out and report back? :naughty:

Stay away from the Trustfires and Ultrafires because ALL of them are mislabeled with impossible capacities. For example there is an Ultrafire BRC18650 4000mAh cell. No one has yet invented a 4000mAh cell in the 18650 size. I will NEVER do business with a company that uses deception like that. Same story with Trustfire, written about all over the ‘net. No one has ever gotten 3000mAh out of a Trustfire 3000mAh cell, even when new. I don’t have time to play 3-card Monty with these companies, and suggest you follow suit.

I have personally owned protected pairs of Eagletac, Redilast, Keeppower, and… Bass Pro. They perform similarly to what others have experienced, came with a proper storage charge and each pair holds exactly the same voltage at maximum charge to the nearest hundredth volt. That’s my definition of high quality.

Here’s some of my local experiences to help you in your real-world pursuit of 18650 cells:

Batteries Plus had never heard of an 18650 Li-ion cell. Don’t waste your time with these guys.

I bought a set of XPS 18650 cells from Bass Pro. I have to agree with Flashlight Dave (Post #5). There are much, much better ones available for the high price, but they are of a decent quality. I did NOT buy the XPS Charger that cost half a bill. :thumbsdow What a rip!

I will have a comprehensive review of these Bass Pro cells with pictures as soon as I get my account activated.

Happy Hunting,
Redhans


----------



## FenixFan1996 (Sep 17, 2012)

*Re: What is your recommended rechargeable battery and charger for the fenix tk21?*

Well thats what I'm here to ask you guys, 

I currently running it on tenergy CR123A's. As it will be a EDC for me I will probably be using it up to an hour a day at most, well unless the power goes out. lol

On a camping trip, etc it could be used for a very long time.

So whats the best rechargeable solution for me? Since those CR123A's are not that cheap. 

thanks


----------



## CamoNinja (Sep 17, 2012)

*Re: What is your recommended rechargeable battery and charger for the fenix tk21?*

Eagletac 3100mah 18650 cell and either a Pila charger or xstar charger.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Sep 18, 2012)

*Re: What is your recommended rechargeable battery and charger for the fenix tk21?*

Keeppower 3100s, Redilast 3100s, AW 3100s (if buttonless works for that light,) International-Outdoors 3100s, Orbtronics 3100s, EagleTac 3100s, CalliesKustom 3100s, Xtar 3100s. All of these use the NCR18650A Panasonic cells.

I use the Xtar WP2 II and EagleTac 3100s, along with a couple of unprotected Pannie NCR 3100s, in single cell lights.

Works for me and not a lot of cash.

Chris


----------



## gopajti (Sep 18, 2012)

*Re: What is your recommended rechargeable battery and charger for the fenix tk21?*

Charger: *XTAR WP2 II* (strongly recommended)
Battery: *Fenix ARB-L2, 2600mAh* (use BAK cell)

other (not overpriced) good quality protected batteries:

- XTAR 18700, 2600mAh (Sanyo cell)
- Keeppower cells (use Sanyo, Panasonic etc)
- Intl-Outdoor 2600 or 3100mAh (Sanyo and Panasonic cell)


----------



## thomast77 (Sep 18, 2012)

*18650 batteries and charger*

So who makes the best quality 18650 batteries and chargers? The charger should be able to charge one cell at a time. And it should charge each battery individually. It should detect the battery voltage and use that to know when to stop charging. In other words it should not be a timed charger. Thank You in advance for your input


----------



## rustlerdudr987 (Sep 18, 2012)

There are so many threads about this on this forum you can simply look for your self and find your answer.


----------



## Rafael Jimenez (Sep 19, 2012)

*Re: 18650 batteries and charger*

I Believe that the. AW brand is very good for batteries. Chargers i dont now yet.


----------



## Joe Talmadge (Sep 19, 2012)

*Re: 18650 batteries and charger*



thomast77 said:


> It should detect the battery voltage and use that to know when to stop charging.



Actually, you don't want that at all. You want a charger that follows the proper algorithm -- so it should detect the current and use *that* to know when to stop charging, while holding voltage steady   Okay, carry on....


----------



## FenixFan1996 (Sep 19, 2012)

*Re: What is your recommended rechargeable battery and charger for the fenix tk21?*

Thanks guys I think I will use the Xtar WP2 II and EagleTac 3100s, just wondering where I can buy these?


----------



## Shadowww (Sep 19, 2012)

*Re: What is your recommended rechargeable battery and charger for the fenix tk21?*

Quite a lot of dealers offer these.
Where do you live? USA/Canada, Europe, Australia or somewhere else?


----------



## Shadowww (Sep 19, 2012)

*Re: 18650 batteries and charger*

For charger: that depends on your budget and needs - for ~$20 - Xtar WP2 II, for $35 - Xtar SP2.
For batteries: check http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650Summary UK.html
For single-cell lights best deal would be Intl-Outdoor Store UR18650FM 2600mAh's, for multi-cell lights - Keeppower 3100mAh's, Eagletac 3100mAh's, Xtar 3100mAh's or Intl-Outdoor Store 3100mAh's (depending on which ones you can get for least price).


----------



## 1215 (Sep 19, 2012)

*Re: 18650 batteries and charger*

Pila IBC is regarded as one of, if not the best plug and play lithium ion charger . Excellent charge characteristics if you want to look after a large amount of expensive batteries. 
Can sometimes be hard to order though.


----------



## Shadowww (Sep 19, 2012)

*Re: 18650 batteries and charger*

It was one of the best, it's not since release of Xtar SP2, which is both cheaper & better than the IBC.


----------



## Joe Talmadge (Sep 19, 2012)

*Re: 18650 batteries and charger*

Okay, more seriously ...

First, Li Ion technology is safe with proper care and handling, but badly handled, can lead to a life-changing experience (not in a good way). It doesn't take much to educate yourself on the basics, but I suggest you do so -- the fact that you think charge is terminated by voltage means you're missing some really fundamental basics. That's not meant as a criticism, but honest advice to keep you safe. 

Okay, on to batteries. The proven, high quality, premium-priced battery brands are AW, Redilast, and Kallie's Customs. A year ago, these were the no-brainer choices, despite the premium prices. These days, there are a bunch of lower-priced brands that use the same high-quality cells and have tested really well here on CPF.. names like Orbtronics, Eageltac, etc. Read through CPF 18650 reviews and make a decision on which way you want to go.

On chargers, Pila is the proven high quality name. The Xtar SP2 is another solid choice. If you're willing to go with no-bay open-lead chargers, Cottonpicker's amazing little chargers (complete with voltmeter!) are a fantastic choice.


----------



## FenixFan1996 (Sep 19, 2012)

*Re: What is your recommended rechargeable battery and charger for the fenix tk21?*

Canada.


----------



## Shadowww (Sep 19, 2012)

*Re: What is your recommended rechargeable battery and charger for the fenix tk21?*

Take a look at http://hidcanada.com/store/ , they're taking the whole battery business very seriously.
This is how they prepare their rechargeables prior to shipping, for example: http://hidcanada.com/store/index.php?main_page=page&id=28

And, if you decide to go with them, check out their "in-house brand" Dark Matter for 18650 batteries - their 3400mAh version is $16, just $1 more than 3100mAh Eagletac.


----------



## march.brown (Sep 19, 2012)

*Re: 18650 batteries and charger*

Check this out for a good cheap charger.

Really cheap true cc/cv usb charging board

It needs a one amp mains (plug-in) 5V USB power supply unit (for 18650's) ... There are plenty available on Ebay.
You only need to solder two leads (with croc clips attatched) to the board ... Make sure that the croc-clips are soldered to the leads as some are crimped badly ... These croc-clips can "stick" to the battery by using magnets.

It is a true CC/CV charger ... Ebay sells four for about £5 ... It is already set for one amp which makes it perfect for 18650's.

Should you wish to reduce the charge rate (for smaller batteries) , then a single resistor has to be changed ... The power supply into the charger board is using the mini-USB that is fitted onto the charger board , so you need a short USB to mini USB cord. 

I use these all the time , though I have made up a 5 volt power supply unit that has four USB sockets fitted ...I can charge up to four 18650 cells at a time at one amp each.

As for batteries , it depends on the current that your torch needs ... I have opted to use Panasonic 3100mAh batteries as my standard 18650 battery ... I used to use Ultrafire batteries till I "saw the light".
.


----------



## Monocrom (Sep 20, 2012)

*Re: 18650 batteries and charger*



Shadowww said:


> It was one of the best, it's not since release of Xtar SP2, which is both cheaper & better than the IBC.



Cheaper? Yes.

But still too new to have the proven track record of the Pila. Only time will tell.


----------



## Norm (Sep 20, 2012)

*Re: 18650 batteries and charger*



Shadowww said:


> It was one of the best, it's not since release of Xtar SP2, which is both cheaper & better than the IBC.


Definitely yet to be proven.

Norm


----------



## Shadowww (Sep 20, 2012)

*Re: 18650 batteries and charger*



Norm said:


> Definitely yet to be proven.
> 
> Norm



Already is


----------



## Norm (Sep 20, 2012)

*Re: 18650 batteries and charger*



Shadowww said:


> Already is


Not sure how you come to that conclusion reading just that review, I can't see any comparison with Pila. 

A head to head review is needed to reach any meaningful conclusion.

Norm


----------



## Shadowww (Sep 20, 2012)

*Re: 18650 batteries and charger*

Well yeah, one of problems with Pila is there aren't any high-quality reviews of it like there are of SP2 (the one by HKJ). People just *assume* that it's good because it always terminates at 4.2V etc.


----------



## Norm (Sep 20, 2012)

*Re: 18650 batteries and charger*



Shadowww said:


> People just *assume* that it's good because it always terminates at 4.2V etc.


That's not the case the Pila will analyse the battery status and charge accordingly, if a charger is terminating at 4.2V every time you have a problem.

From here


> Another point I'd like to make is that the "fully charged" state of any chemistry of Li-Ion cell, as pertains to charge termination, is determined not by the OC voltage of the cell, but at a predetermined level in the declining charge current rate, during the CV stage. This is why used, or older cells should terminate charge with a lower OC voltage than newer, less used cells, when a proper charging algorithm is used. This prevents unnecessary oxidation of older, or well used cell's electrodes. The actual OC cell voltage of a cell being charged is irrelevant, as pertains to charge termination. This should not be confused with charging circuit voltage, which should be 4.20 +/- 0.05 Volts during the CV stage, for lithium cobalt cells.



You may find these threads interesting.

Xtar WP2 and MP1 (18650 Chargers) Review: Comparison to Pila, DSD, DX.6105 Chargers 

Pila IBC Charger Review 

Norm


----------



## thomast77 (Sep 20, 2012)

Thank You all for your input. I have read every post and appreciate the info.


----------



## FenixFan1996 (Sep 20, 2012)

Like wise, And to the staffer that merged the thread thanks, some quality info here.


----------



## moldyoldy (Sep 20, 2012)

45/70 said:


> Hi roadkill. While I agree that cells should be used, rather than stored , the idea that they should be "exercised" to keep them in good condition is an idea which is a leftover from NiCd/NiMh maintenance practices, and does not apply to any Li-Ion cell chemistry. There are no benefits to deep discharging, or exercising Li-Ion cells, nor is it necessary. It only results in adding more wear to the cells. Here is an excerpt pertaining to prolonging Li-Ion cell longevity from Battery University.
> 
> As mentioned, it may be necessary to more or less, fully discharge a "smart" Li-Ion battery pack, used in a consumer device, so as to recalibrate the "fuel level" gauge in such devices. However, deep cycling, or exercising Li-Ion cells, or batteries for any other intended purpose only serves to wear the cells out, as nothing is gained from doing so.
> 
> Dave



+1 on the last paragraph! Some manufacturers of laptops and other electronic devices will state that directly, some simply recommend a monthly discharge but do not give a reason. Even the iRobot 532 series has a mode to reset the battery fuel gauge - on a NiMH battery pack!

it is also important to recharge any deeply discharged battery/cell relatively soon after use. Leaving a secondary cell or battery pack in a fully (or near) discharged condition is rather detrimental to the life expectancy of that pack. That usually leads to one cell weakening permanently thus reducing the run time of the entire pack.


----------



## Ualnosaj (Sep 28, 2012)

Shadowww said:


> Take a look at http://hidcanada.com/store/ , they're taking the whole battery business very seriously.
> This is how they prepare their rechargeables prior to shipping, for example: http://hidcanada.com/store/index.php?main_page=page&id=28
> 
> And, if you decide to go with them, check out their "in-house brand" Dark Matter for 18650 batteries - their 3400mAh version is $16, just $1 more than 3100mAh Eagletac.



If you've ever tested the sheer number of batteries that go through the shop, you'll know never to trust any battery even if they have the same label from the same batch. Without testing, there re no guarantees. Here's a few 16340 AW that are going through one of the analyzers now...












Having said that, AW or a high quality Panasonic based cell will minimize the "lottery" risk of getting an underperforming battery.




________________
Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse the brevity of this message.


----------



## loquutis79 (Oct 7, 2012)

I started out with AW's and Pila based on all the reviews here on CPF. Top dollar items for sure and yes, good product. But while I was waiting on the mail man for delivery of said products I was just starting to see the reviews and comments about the Xtar chargers, and just after recieving my Pila came the Intellicharger i4 V2. At half the price or less, these chargers were getting some pretty good reviews and still are. If I had to buy again I would go with one of these over the Pila as I find my Pila only charges to 4.13V with my AW's. [I had some conversation about this a while back and never really found an answer to my satisfaction. I can message you with further details if you so choose.]
As for the li-ion's, yes AW is a very good battery. I started off with 3100mAh 18650's. Great battery but why do they only charge to 4.13V all the time?? Then based on reviews of the Eagletac batteries I figured I would give some a try. Well let me say at half the price of AW's and then seeing these charge right up to 4.18 - 4.19v on the same Pila charger, I was sold. Same charger...different results with two brands of batteries. [Pause for effect!]


So to recap:
Charger - Pila 1st, if you have the dollars. Xtar or Intellicharger if on a budget but still want a proper charger.
Batteries - I am sticking with Eagletac for now, or until all the rave here makes them double the price. :]


----------



## thomast77 (Oct 7, 2012)

I think the consensus is that the Eagletac (Panasonic) 3100mah are very good batteries. I think that is what I am going to try. I like the usb output option of the Xtar wp2 II. The reviews seem favorable and the price is right. I like that it also has a CLA which is compatible with my foldable solar panel. Thank You all for the input


----------



## Cnote (Oct 11, 2012)

So where is the best value for the Eagletac (Panasonic) 3100mah or Panasonic branded protected cell?

Xtar SpII have advantages over the WP2 II?


----------



## Shadowww (Oct 11, 2012)

Cnote said:


> So where is the best value for the Eagletac (Panasonic) 3100mah or Panasonic branded protected cell?
> 
> Xtar SpII have advantages over the WP2 II?


SP2 has higher charging current (2A) which is more suitable for 26650-sized batteries (and IMR 18650 batteries).


----------



## anonymoususer (Oct 15, 2012)

*Which 18650 should i get and how should i care for them?*

It's been a while since i read up about lights and batteries and a lot of the information i found in search is old. 

I just bought a new Surefire C2 light with XM-L drop-in in addition to a couple other Surefire lights with XP-G drop-ins. I would also like to upgrade my arsenal of 18650 batteries and charger since i noticed one of my xxxxfire batteries starting to bulge. Just to give you a little background the typical use my lights see is an occasional burst for a few minutes while i'm looking for something or working on the car and some times i may take them on a long hike. Other than that my lights generally don't get very much use. The main reason i bought these lights are for emergency black-out situations such as Tsunami or Hurricane (I live in Hawaii) so the batteries may see extended storage. 

Off the top of my head i am inclined to buy a AW 3100mAh and Pila charger but do you folks have any other recommendations? I read in the past lower storage temps usually mean less self discharge rate. And i remember way back in high school my electronics teacher telling the class to store Alkaline batteries in the refridgerator for a longer shelf life. Can i store the Li-Ion battery in the refridgerator for extended storage? Will storing at 100% cause irreversible damage to the battery?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Joe Talmadge (Oct 15, 2012)

*Re: Which 18650 should i get and how should i care for them?*

AW 3100 and Pila are pretty no-brainer, but pricey, options. Definitely can't fault you for that.

The other interesting options for chargers: Cottonpicker's chargers are tiny, and if you're only charging one cell at a time (actually, for the price of the Pila, you can buy 2), you can end up with a really tiny covenient charger that can run off a USB port, and has a built-in voltmeter. I use these almost exclusively. If you ever think you might get rechargeable batteries that are RCR or 14500 size, this charger can be ordered with options that make it a better option than the Pila. In terms of chargers with bays, the Xtar SP2 is less expensive than the pila, seems to use a good algorithm, and again is more suitable to the Pila for smaller cells.

There are even more interesting options for cells. Aside from the "big-name" premium priced cells -- AW, Redilast, Callie's Kustoms -- a number of much less expensive brands have appeared that use the same really high quality cells. Names like Orbtronic, Eagletac, Keeppower, etc. We don't know if there's a difference in the quality of the protection circuit. We do know those other cells are much less expensive and behave about the same.

In short, AW with Pila is a blue-chip choice. If you think you'll ever run smaller cells, look at Cottonpickers (especially if you like the idea of USB charging) and Xtar. If you want to try out less expensive cells that are made with the same great Panasonic cell as AW but cost less, there are a slew of options

Storing at 100% will cause the battery to age prematurely, especially if you're doing it months at a time. For lights that don't get much use, I favor primaries if the light will run that way. They make more sense than rechargeables for me, the "don't store at 100%" one of the big reasons.


----------



## pobox1475 (Oct 15, 2012)

*Re: Which 18650 should i get and how should i care for them?*

I went with the Pila IBC charger and AW protected cells from the get go. No regrets what so ever.


----------



## anonymoususer (Oct 15, 2012)

*Re: Which 18650 should i get and how should i care for them?*

Thanks for the recommendation and insight, fellas. I'll probably just go with the AWs, it's only $7 more with the free shipping over the Callies Kustoms for 4. 

What are your thoughts about storing in the 'fridge? Of course i will not charge or discharge at those temperatures.


----------



## Norm (Oct 15, 2012)

*Re: Which 18650 should i get and how should i care for them?*



anonymoususer said:


> What are your thoughts about storing in the 'fridge? Of course i will not charge or discharge at those temperatures.



A quick search of CPF using the google search box at the top of the page will answer most questions for you.

Norm


----------



## ncnative (Oct 15, 2012)

Not trying to hijack thread but what are the advantages of using a 18650 cell versus two AW c123's. Will it make my Surefire with a Malkoff drop in brighter or run better?


----------



## Norm (Oct 15, 2012)

ncnative said:


> Not trying to hijack thread but what are the advantages of using a 18650 cell versus two AW c123's. Will it make my Surefire with a Malkoff drop in brighter or run better?



See this thread, post your query there if you wish.
Do not take this thread off topic. - Norm


----------



## Lonely Raven (Oct 16, 2012)

*Old Skooler needs an update - Need Batteries and Charger*

OK, I've been away from the forums for a long while. Work keeps me away from my hobbies unfortunately. So I'm looking for some help updating my batteries and charger. 


Long story short, my EDC 18650 light was stolen from my desk at work one day (I forget it *one* day and someone walks off with it), and I replaced it with the new Olight S10 Baton which I really like. And my fiance bought me a big Sunwayman M60 I think it is, that uses 3 18650 with the charging station and magnetic ring power switch and all that. 

I'm finding that all my Tenergy RCR123 and old skool AW RCR123 are no longer taking a charge, and I think the inexpensive chargers I have (probably a half dozen different ones) are just killing them off. 

So, being out of the loop for so long, I need the quick and dirty as to what are great, top of the line 18650 and RCR123 batteries and a good charger that will keep them functional as long as possible. I hate tossing out Li-on batteries because a charger cooked them. 

I tried skimming through the forums, and even with my past knowledge and experience, this forum can be a bit overwhelming with how fast the technology had advanced in the past few years! I see you guys have discovered hobby chargers and the LED are just light years of where they were 3-4 years ago! That's awesome! But I need some guidance!

Suggestions?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Joe Talmadge (Oct 16, 2012)

*Re: Old Skooler needs an update - Need Batteries and Charger*

Chargers: Pila is still the top of the line production charger, but its charge rate is arguably higher-than-ideal for 16340s. For charging both 16340 and 18650, Cottonpicker's chargers are tiny, and if you're only charging one cell at a time (actually, for the price of the Pila, you can buy 2), you can end up with a really tiny covenient charger that can run off a USB port, and has a built-in voltmeter. I use these almost exclusively. If you ever think you might get rechargeable batteries that are RCR or 14500 size, this charger can be ordered with multiple charge rate options options that make it a better option than the Pila. In terms of chargers with bays, the Xtar SP2 is less expensive than the pila, seems to use a good algorithm, and again is more suitable to the Pila for smaller cells. We now have a lot of testing done on chargers, and have a good idea which have good algorithms and which have unacceptable ones -- no excuse for going with a charger that charges at too high a rate, doesn't terminate properly, etc. 

Batteries: For 18650, aside from the "big-name" premium priced cells -- AW, Redilast, Callie's Kustoms -- a number of much less expensive brands have appeared that use the same really high quality cells. Names like Orbtronic, Eagletac, Keeppower, etc. We don't know if there's a difference in the quality of the protection circuit. We do know those other cells are much less expensive and behave about the same, though based on HKJ's tests there appear to be some efficiency differences (likely based on the protection circuit, since the base cells are the same). For 16340, AW is the best game in town.


----------



## Ken2step (Oct 17, 2012)

*Digital Volt meter recommendations anyone?*

After reading this thread I feel I want to invest in a meter now so I can monitor and learn my batteries. Anyone got any recommendations for me?

thanks,
Ken


----------



## Norm (Oct 17, 2012)

*Re: Digital Volt meter recommendations anyone?*



Ken2step said:


> After reading this thread I feel I want to invest in a meter now so I can monitor and learn my batteries. Anyone got any recommendations for me?
> 
> thanks,
> Ken


Ken your question is beyond the scope of this thread.

Cheap Multimeter 

Good cheap multimeter?

This thread is also extremely helpful Simple guide to using a DMM for measurements 

Norm


----------



## THE_dAY (Nov 15, 2012)

Shadowww said:


> Currently best value is provided by 2600mAh ones (by the way, compared to 3100mAh ones they hold higher voltage and therefore offer flatter regulation in single-cell lights)



I've read a few threads where this is mentioned about the 2600 but am having a hard time understanding some of the 18650 graphs.

For a 2.6A (2.8v - 6v) drop-in running off a single 18650, which one would give me the longest runtime at 2.6A, the 2600 or the 3400?

Would the 2600mAh be a better choice for me and the 3400 be a better choice only in multi-cell setup?

Thanks


----------



## Shadowww (Nov 15, 2012)

THE_dAY said:


> I've read a few threads where this is mentioned about the 2600 but am having a hard time understanding some of the 18650 graphs.
> 
> For a 2.6A (2.8v - 6v) drop-in running off a single 18650, which one would give me the longest runtime at 2.6A, the 2600 or the 3400?
> 
> ...


In single-cell light, 2600mAh batteries would provide higher brightness for ~1 hours, but then brightness will "fall off a cliff". 3400mAh batteries will quickly start dropping brightness, but will provide much higher runtime than 2600mAh batteries - around 2 hours (because current draw will drop together with voltage, as soon as voltage of battery is less than Vf of LED + voltage wasted on driver).


----------



## HKJ (Nov 15, 2012)

Shadowww said:


> In single-cell light, 2600mAh batteries would provide higher brightness for ~1 hours, but then brightness will "fall off a cliff". 3400mAh batteries will quickly start dropping brightness, but will provide much higher runtime than 2600mAh batteries - around 2 hours (because current draw will drop together with voltage, as soon as voltage of battery is less than Vf of LED + voltage wasted on driver).



That is correct for some single cell lights, but not for all.
The Quark (not mini) will basically have constant brightness for the full runtime. 
The ThruNite TN11 needs 4 volt for full brightness on high, i.e. it will start dropping immediately.

But on most single cell lights you will get higher brightness with a 2600mAh cell, at least some of the time.


----------



## THE_dAY (Nov 15, 2012)

Regarding the 3400 brightness drop, is it something like 10-20% drop which would be basically unnoticeable or something significant?

~2hr runtime would be very attractive if the drop is only slight, a lot better than the 2600's ~1hr at full brightness.

If the output after an hour from 3400 is down to 50% then it I might just stick to the 2600.

Thank you both for your input!


----------



## ObserverJLin (Dec 5, 2012)

*Charger enquiry*

Hello,

For charging AW 18650 batteries. What is the difference between NITECORE Intellicharge i4 - Version 2 and Pila IBC Charger? I am concerned because Pila is twice the price of NITECORE Intel i4 v2.
Thx


Regards
John


----------



## Shadowww (Dec 5, 2012)

*Re: Charger enquiry*

Advantages of i4:


4 bays instead of 2
multi-chemistry (NiMH & Li-Ion)
charging status indicator (although it's precision is not very high)
supports many battery sizes (16340, 14500, 16650, 17670, etc)
 Advantages of Pila IBC:

seems to have "better track record" according to some CPFers, whatever that means


----------

