# Cree SC5 platform, XHP LED's



## Hoop (Oct 24, 2014)

Cree has announced their SC5 platform and XHP LED's.

"The first available family of XHP LEDs is the XLamp® XHP50 LED, delivering up to 2250 lumens at 19 watts from a 5.0 x 5.0-mm package. At its maximum current, the XHP50 provides twice the light output of the industry’s brightest single-die LED, the XLamp XM-L2 LED, at a similar lumens per watt and without increasing the package footprint. By leveraging Cree’s latest reliability innovations, the XHP50 is designed to maintain L90 lifetimes above 50,000 hours even at high temperature and current. " -Cree Press Release

Details are sparse. Looks like the new LED's will be 6v and/or 12v and have the same footprint as the XM-L2 package.


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## mds82 (Oct 24, 2014)

Still waiting for some sort of datasheet. besides for that press release there's nothing available yet


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## Vanishing (Oct 26, 2014)

*New Cree Led incoming...*

http://www.cree.com/LED-Components-and-Modules/SC5

Does this mean 2000 lumen single 18650 flashlights are coming soon? :O


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## degarb (Oct 26, 2014)

"the XHP50 provides twice the light output of the industry’s brightest single-die LED, the XLamp XM-L2 LED"

Are not the 8k lumen 100 watt leds single die? (or do they mean brightest at 1 to 20 watts?


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## NoNotAgain (Oct 26, 2014)

*Re: New Cree Led incoming...*

Looks like household lighting not battery operated units.


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## martinaee (Oct 26, 2014)

*Re: New Cree Led incoming...*

The future looks bright!


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## GordoJones88 (Oct 26, 2014)

*Re: New Cree Led incoming...*



Vanishing said:


> Does this mean 2000 lumen single 18650 flashlights are coming soon? :O



No.


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## SimulatedZero (Oct 26, 2014)

*Re: New Cree Led incoming...*

Most of Cree's LED's weren't designed for flashlights, people just got nifty ideas and put two and two together. An LED like this would be perfect for something like the Fenix TK61. Or, a nice new side project for me involving extra lights on my SUV.


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## JAS (Oct 26, 2014)

*New Cree Led Incoming...*



Vanishing said:


> http://www.cree.com/LED-Components-and-Modules/SC5
> 
> Does this mean 2000 lumen single 18650 flashlights are coming soon? :O



That would be pretty sweet, though!


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## kuna (Oct 27, 2014)

*Re: New Cree Led Incoming...*

Hmm 2200 lumens from a 5 x 5mm die? Same footprint as the XM-L2? Sounds like pretty good news to me. I'm sure these will be replacing the XM-L2s in the not-too-distant future. They will also be great for most lights that use XM-L2s, not just the Tk61


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## RoGuE_StreaK (Oct 27, 2014)

Hoop said:


> Looks like the new LED's will be 6v and/or 12v


If this is correct, that kinda rules out the single 18650, unless there are some fancy boost systems out there.

Picsorban, Cree!


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## StandardBattery (Oct 27, 2014)

Hoop said:


> Cree has announced their SC5 platform and XHP LED's.
> 
> .... Looks like the new LED's will be 6v and/or 12v and have the same footprint as the XM-L2 package.





RoGuE_StreaK said:


> If this is correct, that kinda rules out the single 18650, unless there are some fancy boost systems out there.
> 
> Picsorban, Cree!



Yes, looks like an MT-G2 replacement for both home lighting applications ... and of course flashlights. Looks like Fenix will need to update the TK-35 UE.... not sure what replaces the "Ultimate" ... maybe the "Dream" edition.


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## SimulatedZero (Oct 27, 2014)

Notice that they never stated a boost in efficiency with this die. It may be that they built one that's designed to handle that much more power for raw output. There are already enough problems with thermal management and dropped outputs for extended runtimes.


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## 880arm (Oct 27, 2014)

SimulatedZero said:


> Notice that they never stated a boost in efficiency with this die. It may be that they built one that's designed to handle that much more power for raw output. There are already enough problems with thermal management and dropped outputs for extended runtimes.



Exactly, it has about the same efficiency as the XM-L2. It gets its boost in output due to running up to 19W with its higher voltage.

I don't know what they are doing about heat but it does boast a pretty impressive 50,000 hour L90 lifespan (until output drops to 90%).


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## RoGuE_StreaK (Oct 27, 2014)

There wasn't any mention of die size was there? Just 5x5 footprint. I'm guessing it's like the XP-L, where the die is almost the size of the footprint (XM-L die in a XP footprint), so a bigger die in the same XM-L footprint, at the same efficiency etc., so more total light. Which _could_ then mean it will be the same Vf as the XM-L2, just a bigger slice of the same die?


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## kuna (Oct 27, 2014)

The total die size will probably be a little bit larger than the current XM-L2. The XHP-50 is also a four-die led, probably running in s2p2. Maybe they will make a single die version soon. The LED will also be able to operate at up to 105c and still maintain a 50,000 hour l90 lifespan I hear also.


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## SimulatedZero (Oct 28, 2014)

I would have to disagree with that assertion, unless you happened to have some literature on this diode that I haven't been able to find yet. Other XH lamps are single-die discrete diodes on Cree's site. To me the XHP is going to be a scaled down version of the MT-G2. So far everything I have been able to find points to almost identical electrical characteristics as the MT-G2 in a smaller 5mmx5mm area instead of a 8.9mmx8.9mm diode. 

That being said, a more compact version of the MT-G2 would make for some fairly exciting multi-18650 lights.


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## mds82 (Oct 28, 2014)

Mashables posted this picture the day it came out. I'm not sure if its accurate but it looks like something cree would make for sure. it shows a 4 die setup


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## Mr. Tone (Oct 28, 2014)

This is from a post in vinhnguyen54's subforum.




texas cop said:


> Looks like a quad LED with built in 2s2p or 4s options





texas cop said:


> http://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/components/led-lighting/crees-powerful-5mm-led-2014-10/


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## SimulatedZero (Oct 28, 2014)

I stand corrected. Interesting design for sure. I wonder what the actual phosphor foot print is then. It's not quite the full 5mmx5mm board, but it might be a bit larger than an XM-L2?


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## easilyled (Oct 29, 2014)

Quad-dies in the past like the Seoul-P7 and Cree MC-E have presented a challenge in terms of throw due to a central donut in the beam which often needs to be smoothed by using a stippled reflector. If this is the case for this XHP, then it might not necessarily be a better choice for use in flashlights than the MT-G2 despite the die-area being smaller.


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## RoGuE_StreaK (Oct 29, 2014)

Looks like they've essentially stippled the dome (if that's a real pic) in an effort to alleviate that side-effect?


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## Mr. Tone (Oct 29, 2014)

I, too, wonder if that diffused looking dome will make a difference. The close up pics I have seen of the XP-L dome look similar to that.


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## saabluster (Nov 28, 2014)

RoGuE_StreaK said:


> Looks like they've essentially stippled the dome (if that's a real pic) in an effort to alleviate that side-effect?



The texture on the dome is to help extract light. Acts as a sort of "AR coating" reducing the light's propensity to bounce back at the boundary layer.


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## mds82 (Dec 3, 2014)

I was able to meet with my rep today and he had a bit of a show and tell. This is a pic of the initial lineup of the XHP series. The XHP70 on the right contains the same die as the XL-P and is capabale of emitting over 4000 lumen which having a higher junction temperate rating of around 100C - 120C. Pretty cool..


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## Mr. Tone (Dec 3, 2014)

^

I am guessing that the XHP70 is about the size of the MT-G2 based on that pic.


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## mds82 (Dec 4, 2014)

I believe it is a 7x7 footprint


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## bigchelis (Dec 4, 2014)

I like the 6V inputs as of lately.

I bet that new emitter would do wonders direct driven off 2 IMR type cells.

bigC


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## phantom23 (Dec 5, 2014)

Eagletac is quick:

http://www.eagletac.com/html/mx25l3xhp50/features/index.html

XHP50 appears to be slightly throwier MT-G2.


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## Hoop (Dec 5, 2014)

Call me a skeptic but I doubt that that 1m white wall shot of the Eagletac is... "accurate. "


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## phantom23 (Dec 5, 2014)

Who said it's accurate? Brightness and runtime are basically the same but has tighter(5.7° vs. 7.5°) and more intensive (61klux vs. 45klux) spot.


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## easilyled (Dec 5, 2014)

Its worth trying out a light with one of these at some stage to compare it with my MT-G2 lights. I find it amusing that Eagtac claims that the XHP 50 version can produce a maximium 2800 lumens. It seems that they had to find that extra 50 lumens for the spec-sheet to justify its use over the MT-G2 which can "only" produce a maximum of 2750 lumens according to the specs!

Maybe the smaller die-size does enable the XHP-50 to throw further and if so, then that will be an advantage. Although if the reflector needs to be stochastic (ie orange-peeled) to tame the notorious quad-die donuts, then that may well nullify the advantage.


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## phantom23 (Dec 5, 2014)

I think HHP50 may work well with smooth reflector, it has 4 chips indeed but they're fairly close to each other and than covered with the frosted dome.


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## easilyled (Dec 6, 2014)

phantom23 said:


> I think HHP50 may work well with smooth reflector, it has 4 chips indeed but they're fairly close to each other and than covered with the frosted dome.



If you happen to come across this combination at some point, please let us know in this thread.


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## degarb (Dec 6, 2014)

If my calculator is doing math correctly, 4357 candela 200 lumens for 20 hours. Seems impresive to me. Does eagletac have flat regulation?


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## HumanLumen (Dec 18, 2014)

Datasheet now available!


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## HumanLumen (Dec 18, 2014)

HumanLumen said:


> Datasheet now available!


....and, for the same min 70CRI bin 5000K and modified for 25 deg C, the J2 bin works out at aprox 931 compared to 920 for the MTG2 P0 bin, but with a slightly lower Vf for the XHP50


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## HumanLumen (Dec 18, 2014)

HumanLumen said:


> Datasheet now available!


........but if you go up to 5700K at 70min CRI J4 BIN XHP50A-00-0000-0D0BJ40E2, YOU CAN GET 1002 lumen compared with 920 for the MTG2. Choices choices.


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## clemence (Dec 20, 2014)

Had anyone here tried to use the XML base to solder XHP50? I see minor differences in the footprints



XHP50 bottom side dimension




XML bottom side dimension





This little XHP50 is an excellent candidate for those already using the XML2 Easy white (6V) as the 6V version of XML2 suffers from lower efficiency compared to the low voltage version. I plan to upgrade my motorcycle DRL lights using XHP50 soon!!


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## RoGuE_StreaK (Dec 20, 2014)

clemence said:


> Had anyone here tried to use the XML base to solder XHP50? I see minor differences in the footprints


I'm not seeing any differences except the separator dividing the two pads into four? So if running as 6V, to me it should work fine, as long as the soldermask and flux successfully keeps the solder to defined pads rather than bridging. Even then, not sure if a bridge from eg. anode to the thermal pad would be an issue, as theoretically the thermal pad is electrically isolated. Though of course if it's a direct path to the star (sinkpad etc) with good connection to the body then it may well provide a short path...:thinking: 
So to be on the safe side, lay down four dedicated pad solder strips rather than two, or lay down two and get a toothpick and make a break in the middle. Maybe.


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## clemence (Dec 20, 2014)

Well, I guess so too. It should be straight forward just use less solder at the anode and cathode. I never use anything other than Sinkpad or Noctigon theses days. I'd rather make my own direct copper MCPCB than to use the dielectric MCPCB.


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## Joys_R_us (Dec 22, 2014)

I do not understand why CREE says "at similar watts per lumen" compared with XM-L2 and the table here shows 123 vs 81/109 lumens per watt ???


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## clemence (Dec 22, 2014)

Joys_R_us said:


> I do not understand why CREE says "at similar watts per lumen" compared with XM-L2 and the table here shows 123 vs 81/109 lumens per watt ???


Well, it's better than before right? I'll complain if it's the opposite


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## Joys_R_us (Dec 22, 2014)

I don't complain, I just don't understand. A company with a better product (sometimes even without) would use it as a marketing argument...unless I am overseeing something in the technicalities and the new LED is not more efficient.


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## clemence (Dec 22, 2014)

Joys_R_us said:


> I don't complain, I just don't understand. A company with a better product (sometimes even without) would use it as a marketing argument...unless I am overseeing something in the technicalities and the new LED is not more efficient.



Yes, somehow I feel it too. Why they don't use this advantage to their marketing. I remember the last time they use 85C as their new binning standard temperature (started when they launch XT-E if my memory serves me right). During that time the XT-E reaches 139 lumen per watt at 85C when the top XP-G was only 139 lumen per watt at 25C. And they didn't really boast it that much.


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## degarb (Dec 22, 2014)

Why doesn't the chart show sub 700 ma for the xhp 6V?


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## RoGuE_StreaK (Jan 14, 2015)

Just got an email from Sinkpad saying they're making direct-to-copper (or -aluminium) boards for both the XHP50 and XHP70. No idea on price or availability.


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## vestureofblood (Jan 22, 2015)

Sinkpad is in fact making boards for both the XHP 50 and 70. I have some samples on the way and intend to stock the 70 size boards. The rep from sinkpad I spoke with says that the 6 volt 50 size emitters will work with XML sinkpads, but the 12V will NOT hence they are making a special board for it


If any one is interested LCK-LED is NOW *SHIPPING* the XHP*70*. Its not a top bin though IIRC it was like one down from the top I think. 
I can't swear to it, but I believe this emitter will also work on an MK-R mcpcb.

Cutter Electronics is also showing the XHP70 on a copper star *IN STOCK* in the N4 bin.


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## clemence (Jan 22, 2015)

vestureofblood said:


> Sinkpad is in fact making boards for both the XHP 50 and 70. I have some samples on the way and intend to stock the 70 size boards. The rep from sinkpad I spoke with says that the 6 volt 50 size emitters will work with XML sinkpads, but the 12V will NOT hence they are making a special board for itIf any one is interested LCK-LED is NOW *SHIPPING* the XHP*70*. Its not a top bin though IIRC it was like one down from the top I think. I can't swear to it, but I believe this emitter will also work on an MK-R mcpcb.Cutter Electronics is also showing the XHP70 on a copper star *IN STOCK* in the N4 bin.


It's good that my unused XML sinkpads are not wasted. Matt, thx the shipment has arrived faster than I thought. I need to order 50-100pcs XP 10mm and several (dunno yet, probably 20ish pcs) 16mm XM next month. Do you think you'll have them?


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## vestureofblood (Jan 23, 2015)

Yes, I think I will. I hope to reorder sinkpads in February, I just have to wait until I pay another large bill for some CNC work I am having done first


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## marc.collin (Jan 24, 2015)

for the XHP70,


*Size (mm x mm)*7.0 x 7.0*Product options	*6-V, 12-V, high-CRI
*Maximum drive current (A)*4.8 (6-V), 2.4 (12-V)*Maximum power (W)*32*Light output*Up to 4022 lm @ 32 W*Typical forward voltage (V)
*5.8 @ 2100 mA (6-V), 11.6 @ 1050 mA (12-V)*Viewing angle (degrees)*120*Binning*85°C, ANSI White, 2-, 3- & 5-Step EasyWhite®
*Thermal resistance (°C/W)*0.9*Reflow-solderable*Yes – JEDEC J-STD-020C-compatible*RoHS and REACH-compliant*Yes*UL-recognized component*Yes – Level 4 Enclosure Consideration



is there any advantage to run it at 6v instead of 12v?

both will use anyway 28Wh (4.8 * 6)

with a 22650 battery like a keep power 5200mhA 3.7 v(normal) max 4.2 max volt, we get 19wh (3.7 x 5200), so we more then one.

my calculation is ok?

what driver can support it?


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## Jakefreese (Jan 24, 2015)

marc.collin said:


> for the XHP70,
> 
> 
> *Size (mm x mm)*7.0 x 7.0*Product options*6-V, 12-V, high-CRI
> ...


I can't wait to get some of them. I think they will be better to work with than some of the high lumen cob due to the lower Vf. I would look into the Texas instruments driver solutions, I'll look tonight if I get a chance.


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## marc.collin (Jan 24, 2015)

Jakefreese said:


> I can't wait to get some of them. I think they will be better to work with than some of the high lumen cob due to the lower Vf. I would look into the Texas instruments driver solutions, I'll look tonight if I get a chance.




if i take this del
LCOB50-30W030XXER80-0960​ from cob​
​it's power it's 30w,
960ma, and it's vf it's ​30V-34V​http://www.cob-led.com/ceramic-cob-led-module/High-CRI-LCOB50-30W030XXER80-0960.pdf

vf is higher then xph


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## Mr. Tone (Feb 10, 2015)

vinhnguyen54 has modded a light with the XHP70 now. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?397180-Got-XHP70

I am looking forward to seeing more lights with this, particularly with flood type beams.


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## jason 77 (Feb 10, 2015)

Anyone know where I can buy the xhp50 and xhp70 that is closer to the USA, I really don't want to pay more for shipping than the leds are gonna cost from places like cutter and lck-led?


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## jason 77 (Feb 13, 2015)

I'll answer my own question, mouser has some of both the xph50 and xph70 bare LEDs, the ones I bought are on order so we will see how long it takes for me to get them. Mountain Electronics has what look like really nice MCPCB for both LEDs. I will post pics once I receive them.


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## jason 77 (Feb 16, 2015)

Well the sinkpad MCPCB's arrived already! They look nice, just waiting on the actual LEDs to get here now...


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## thijsco19 (Feb 21, 2015)

easilyled said:


> If you happen to come across this combination at some point, please let us know in this thread.


I've mod a convoy L5 host with a XHP50 led. It has a smooth reflector and yes there is still a 'dark spot' in the middle of the hot spot.
I'm not sure if that's because I couldn't focus the led properly or because it's just the quad die layout itself.


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## easilyled (Feb 21, 2015)

thijsco19 said:


> I've mod a convoy L5 host with a XHP50 led. It has a smooth reflector and yes there is still a 'dark spot' in the middle of the hot spot.
> I'm not sure if that's because I couldn't focus the led properly or because it's just the quad die layout itself.



Thanks for the feedback. I guess that we'll have to wait for further lights using these emitters to be able to draw firm conclusions but your results are interesting.


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## thijsco19 (Mar 23, 2015)

Here's a beamshot I took couple days back, pointing at the ceiling from about 1.5meters away.
It's my first beamshot so I'd took it with the auto setting on the camera.

It's a XHP50 mounted in a Convoy L5 host with a smooth reflector.
As you can see, there is a dark spot in the middle of the hotspot. In real life you can see it better and if I hold the light further away the dark spot becomes more visible.


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## easilyled (Mar 23, 2015)

Thanks, thijsco19. It seems that smooth reflectors should not be used with these emitters then.


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## Epsilon (Mar 23, 2015)

Have you tried to change the focus Thijsco? Or is this the best result you got from the led/ reflector combo?


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## vestureofblood (Mar 23, 2015)

thijsco19 said:


> I've mod a convoy L5 host with a XHP50 led. It has a smooth reflector and yes there is still a 'dark spot' in the middle of the hot spot.
> I'm not sure if that's because I couldn't focus the led properly or because it's just the quad die layout itself.





easilyled said:


> It seems that smooth reflectors should not be used with these emitters then.





Here is my 2 cents. After having used a handful of XHP-50 and 70s it does appear that the nearly forgotten doughnut has reared its ugly head a bit once again. 

I first noticed it when I started mocking up the Copper P60 XHP-70. I use a OP reflector in this which has always delivered an exceptional beam with any of the modern emitters. However with this I did notice a slight dark spot in the middle.

I also made a 3x XHP-50 set up with a deep set of SMO reflectors and the result was significantly *worse*. 

For this set up I used some of the typical XML LED isolators to set the height. The ones with the little square cut in them that look sort of like a bow tie ( which focus XML perfectly). 

Here is the beam profile with that setup.




I thought that was pretty nasty for a multi emitter set up. It was a fairly small doughnut but quite dark and noticeable I thought.

I had previously discovered with the OP reflector that changing the height was an effective fix for this. Here's the thing though. Often in times past to change focus moving the reflector OUT from the emitter was the thing to do. In the case of the P60s and the 3 XHP the opposite was true. 
*
In order to remove the doughnut with a reflector made for an LED with XHP emitters you need to move the emitter DEEPER INTO THE REFLECTOR.*

I spent some time machining off the base of the reflectors, in both cases this fixed the problem.

Here is a profile shot of the 3x XHP-50 light with the reflector shortened.







As you can see its still not MT-G2 quality, but in real life to my eyes it looks like about an 85% gain.


With the XHP-50s in my small single reflectors I found that simply *setting the reflector down flat around the emitter* was a usable solution ( not perfect, but better, a little higher is better than this). That is not possible for the 70s but with the removal of between .020 and .040" from the base to lower the reflector I get a usable beam from any of the XHPs with any reflector I have tried ( which is only a few at this point).

Happy modding friends!


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## easilyled (Mar 24, 2015)

vestureofblood said:


> .... Here is my 2 cents. ...... !



Thanks for all the learned info. A lot more valuable than 2 cents!

It does make me wonder whether there is much to be gained by using these XHP emitters in flashlight applications when they have to be effectively defocussed in order to eliminate a donut that is not present in the other emitters currently used. 

Sure they are currently the brightest in a single package, but not really much more efficient than the other emitters as far as I know. The brightness comes at the expense of extra energy expended.

So perhaps it would be better just to use multiple XM-L2s or MT-G2s to achieve the same brightness but without donuts when such a high level of brightness is required?


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## vestureofblood (Mar 24, 2015)

I would say that the key advantage to XHP-50 is that it sits directly on the foot print of an XML MCPCB. For me this has proven to be an easy way to pack more punch into many existing templates. As far as beam quality the MT-G2 still by far reigns supreme.


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## Epsilon (Mar 24, 2015)

Thanks vestureofblood for the in depth feedback!

Not the news I was wanting to hear, I'd rather had heard that the weird looking dome on the LED was doing its job and there was no donut  .
Well, we'll see. Have two coming my way at this moment and a smooth reflector that works beautifully with an MT-G2 so I can compare those two.

Cree better make a 3*3mm2 die (SST-90 size) LED in this formfactor .


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## thijsco19 (Mar 26, 2015)

@Epsilon. Nope, I am planning to do so, thnx to vestureofblood I now know what I need to do .

A nice vid of showing the beam pattern of the XHP70 (not mine vid)


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## mcfarlie6996 (May 4, 2015)

clemence said:


> This little XHP50 is an excellent candidate for those already using the XML2 Easy white (6V) as the 6V version of XML2 suffers from lower efficiency compared to the low voltage version. I plan to upgrade my motorcycle DRL lights using XHP50 soon!!



Where do I go to find this graph/chart?


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## mds82 (May 5, 2015)

mcfarlie6996 said:


> Where do I go to find this graph/chart?



http://pct.cree.com/dt/index.html


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## dkemppai (Aug 14, 2015)

Epsilon said:


> I'd rather had heard that the weird looking dome on the LED was doing its job and there was no donut  .



FWIW, This may be a little late. I can confirm the Eagtac MX25L3 with XHP50 does have a donut. It's not horrible, but is present at medium ranges. Close up it isn't detectable, and is harder to see at long distances. For me, the throw combined with total amount of light at 300+yds make up for it.

Dan


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## tex.proud (Apr 27, 2016)

Came across this old thread while searching for info on the XHP after noticing that ArmyTek is getting in on the action.

https://www.armytek.com/be-the-first-to-say-wow.html

I was looking for a headlamp. Guess I found the one I want.


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