# SureFire AA?



## e2x2e (Jan 23, 2008)

Will SureFire ever make a flashlight with AA batteries? Have they ever said anything about this? I would love to have a SureFire quality flashlight with AAs, and I think others would also.


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## greenLED (Jan 23, 2008)

PK showed us a proof of concept a couple of years ago at SHOT. No plans to ever produce one, IIRC.


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## defloyd77 (Jan 23, 2008)

I would love to see an aa version of the E1L with a warm tinted beam.


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## Hitthespot (Jan 23, 2008)

I'm going to go out on a limb and say we will see a Surefire AA or (14500) light within the next 24 months. Wonder if Al knows anything?

Bill


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## Kiessling (Jan 23, 2008)

I hope not. Who needsd AAs except remote controls? :nana:


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## NotRegulated (Jan 23, 2008)

I'm using a Tranquillitybase 3x123 tube with 2 AA's running a KL1 head. Works great.


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## KeyGrip (Jan 23, 2008)

You could also use TnC AA tubes.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jan 23, 2008)

Kiessling said:


> I hope not. Who needsd AAs except remote controls? :nana:


+1

That's my kind of guy!


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## Numbers (Jan 23, 2008)

Are there any benefits of AA batteries over 123's , other than availability and price (if they are actually cheaper per unit of energy held) ?


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## tussery (Jan 23, 2008)

AA's have their place. For example, if you wanted a 3000 bLM Maglite sized light no lithium battery can handle that kind of amperage load safely. Thankfully there are AA NiMH's that can handle 10A loads safely.


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## e2x2e (Jan 23, 2008)

AA's are standard, cheap, available almost everywhere, and safe.


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## p1fiend (Jan 23, 2008)

Surefire should buy the rights to the Nitecore Defender Infinity.

Slap a "Surefire" logo on it, a $100 price tag, and it would sell like hotcakes.


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## Numbers (Jan 23, 2008)

p1fiend said:


> Surefire should buy the rights to the Nitecore Defender Infinity.
> 
> Slap a "Surefire" logo on it, a $100 price tag, and it would sell like hotcakes.


Hmm...
Until now there was no way I would ever agree with that statement but
Based on the LOOKS (only) of the E1B, recently shown on the SF website and now removed, I, for one, may have cause to pause.


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## FlashCrazy (Jan 24, 2008)

p1fiend said:


> Surefire should buy the rights to the Nitecore Defender Infinity.
> 
> Slap a "Surefire" logo on it, a $100 price tag, and it would sell like hotcakes.


 
Absolutely. I was actually thinking earlier today that if you told me the Nitecore DI was made by Surefire, I wouldn't doubt it for a second. 

As for the thread topic, I think Surefire would do well with a AA based light. They're targeting more of the masses by selling the G2L and 6PL in Lowes, and many of those people don't really want a CR123 based light.


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## Monocrom (Jan 24, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> AA's are standard, cheap, available almost everywhere, and safe.


 
I have 2 cases of Surefire cells in a cabinet. That's not counting all of the CR123 cells that came with each of my Surefires and other lights that use those cells. I have had no problems with any of them. Just a few basic rules are needed to stay safe.

1 - Only use Made in America cells.

2 - Never mix and match cells of different brands.

3 - Never mix and match old and new cells in one light. 

4 - Visually inspect cells for any problems that might develop.

Instead of AAs, a better alternative to using CR123 cells would be using 18650 or other rechargeable cells.


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## NoFair (Jan 24, 2008)

I've tried 2 AAs in my C2 with a detonator extender. Works with a LED drop in, not so well with a P91

So any 3 cell Surefire should be able to use 2AAs if you find a suitable bulb/drop in. 

Most military use would stick with lithium AAs anyway so the gain might not be that big by switching from cr123s.. 

Sverre


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## boosterboy (Jan 24, 2008)

p1fiend said:


> Surefire should buy the rights to the Nitecore Defender Infinity.
> 
> Slap a "Surefire" logo on it, a $100 price tag, and it would sell like hotcakes.




Nitecore lights are so tactical, they turn on by themselves, you don't even have to do anything


Surefire's design philosophy revolves around a practical UI.

I will say, the nitecore's machining, fit, and finish is very good, they just need to simplify the UI, cause it's too tactical, not enough practical.


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## mossyoak (Jan 24, 2008)

i wouldnt mind a 2xAA body to work with a kx1 head.


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## MikeSalt (Jan 24, 2008)

One good reason to not enter the AA arena is that it is possible to avoid poor-performance chemistry. The worst CR123 lithium cells are still significantly better in terms of performance than the worst AA cells. By using CR123As exclusively, Surefire ensure that no-one uses 'Super Heavy Duty Carbon-Zinc' cells, which would lead to poor output power, which could lead the ignorant to believe that the flashlight has poor output. Wouldn't do your reputation any favours.


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## Monocrom (Jan 24, 2008)

boosterboy said:


> I will say, the nitecore's machining, fit, and finish is very good, they just need to simplify the UI, cause it's too tactical, not enough practical.


 
The light is a perfect example of how the word "tactical" gets tossed around with little regard to what is needed in a true tactical light. I'm not knocking the light or anything about it.... other than the fact that's it's not an example of a true tactical light. If it was, it would have a simple, reliable as Hell momentary / twist constant-on tailcap switch. 

If it was truly tactical, you wouldn't have to read any instructions on how to use it, or view Wade's instructional vid on youtube....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daFqQjRYgMs


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## Numbers (Jan 24, 2008)

I could not even get through the entire video, for me that is an absolutely ridiculous UI. Also I had never looked at beam shots before (it's a reflector right?) there seem to be a lot of rings and artifacts in there.


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## LightJaguar (Jan 24, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> The light is a perfect example of how the word "tactical" gets tossed around with little regard to what is needed in a true tactical light. I'm not knocking the light or anything about it.... other than the fact that's it's not an example of a true tactical light. If it was, it would have a simple, reliable as Hell momentary / twist constant-on tailcap switch.
> 
> If it was truly tactical, you wouldn't have to read any instructions on how to use it, or view Wade's instructional vid on youtube....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daFqQjRYgMs


 
And this is a perfect example of people not knowing what “tactical” means. By your ignorant remarks I’m also guessing that you do not own a Nicore DI. 
Being the owner of both Surefire lights and a Nicore DI I can assure you that the DI works just like a Surefire straight out of the box. The switch is very simple to operate and you can leave it in the “on” position and use it as a twisty if you wanted to. The user can leave it as it is and the DI will work just like a SF. If the user wanted to use its other features then they *twist the head* and not mess with the switch. Now if a “tactical” user can't handle the DI then they should probably not be anywhere near firearms. 
I for one believe that there are too many Rambos out there and with the new Rambo movie coming out it will probably just get worse.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jan 24, 2008)

tussery said:


> AA's have their place. For example, if you wanted a 3000 bLM Maglite sized light no lithium battery can handle that kind of amperage load safely. Thankfully there are AA NiMH's that can handle 10A loads safely.





> AA's have their place



Yes, in remote controls, toys and Minimags.


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

AA's are excellent. Being the standard battery is priceless. With technology becoming more and more efficient, we are seeing flashlights that can do incredible things, even on a single AAA. Lets compare for a second...one of SureFire's popular lights, the G2 with a Fenix L2d Q5.

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/878/sesent/00

http://www.fenixtactical.com/fenix-l2d-q5.html

G2: 65lm-1hr
L2d q5: Turbo mode 180lm 2.4hr

Lets account for the fact that Fenix measures lumens at the emitter. I think it is fair to say that the Fenix is putting at least 140lm out the front in turbo mode. Let's not embarrass the G2 too much, and slice down that runtime too...say to 2hr. Lets review:

G2: 65lm-1hr
L2d Q5: 140lm-2hr

Look at that! The L2d Q5 is more than TWICE as bright and also has TWICE the runtime, if not more, than the G2! The L2d runs on AA's and the G2 runs on CR123's. You can clearly see how technology has evolved. A lot of people around here say that SureFire isn't trying to have the most up to date technology, etc. The G2 uses batteries that have 2x volatage of AA's and the performance is less that half of a AA light.

My point is: the technology exists to make a great light that runs on AA's. Many Chinese companies are doing it. Now let's see a solid manufacturer get into the action!


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## Carpenter (Jan 24, 2008)

Not a good comparision.

The G2 is an incan while the P2d is a cree. Of course the cree is going to run longer and be brighter than the incan. Use a comparision that compares apples to apples.


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

That is exactly my point. Technology has evolved and is still doing so.


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## Carpenter (Jan 24, 2008)

I'm not going to turn this into a bashing thread. SureFire lights are made for specific purposes. Fenix just makes lights that are bright. 

If SureFire gets enough requests to make a AA light, they will look into it. Right now, the people who buy their lights (LEO's, Military, Govt) aren't requesting it.

I honestly haven't heard of anyone attaching a Fenix to their assult rifle. Surefire, yep..


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> My point is: the technology exists to make a great light that runs on AA's. Many Chinese companies are doing it. Now let's see a solid manufacturer get into the action!





Carpenter said:


> Not a good comparision.
> 
> The G2 is an incan while the P2d is a cree. Of course the cree is going to run longer and be brighter than the incan. Use a comparision that compares apples to apples.



Then why is SureFire selling the G2? Most people would rather have a light that uses 20 cent batteries than, at the cheapest, $1.00 batteries. Especially if it has twice the performance in both brightness and runtime. (At least I do!)

Currently, you can get more brightness than runtime from CR123's than you can from AA's. But SureFire, the company that delivers reliability at the expense of new technology(hint: incandescent bulbs!!), has to milk CR123's (and your bank account, because guess who sells the batteries) to get decent performance-on their current product line?

How old is the G2? If they start now with a flashlight with L2d-like performance on AA's, I think they will still be selling them in a few years. I think.


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

Carpenter said:


> I'm not going to turn this into a bashing thread. SureFire lights are made for specific purposes. Fenix just makes lights that are bright.
> 
> If SureFire gets enough requests to make a AA light, they will look into it. Right now, the people who buy their lights (LEO's, Military, Govt) aren't requesting it.
> 
> I honestly haven't heard of anyone attaching a Fenix to their assult rifle. Surefire, yep..




I agree...kinda. People trust SureFire. I'm not saying SureFire should turn into Fenix. I think that SureFire should be able to offer Fenix-like performance on AA's. Just update and use AA's because you *can* get incredible performance out of them.


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## Carpenter (Jan 24, 2008)

I don't work for SureFire so I don't know why they actually make the G2. However, my guess is that there are still people that buy the G2. There are more than enough threads here as to why people love incans/LED. I'm not going to go into that.

Simply put, If you like Fenix or any other company because they offer something the competition doesn't, then buy from them. SureFire obtains more than enough business without you and everyone else who doesn't like SF because of _________. The people on this forum don't even make 1% of the total market share of the company. PK is a member of CPF and does review these posts, however until the SureFire marketshare tells them to turn in a different direction than they are already doing, it' just not going to happen.

Incan's - Again I am not a LEO even own a gun (different topic), but my guess is that it is easier to clear a building with a medium lit incan (65 or 120 lumens) than a 200Lumen top of the line cree where the guy behind the muzzle is as blind as the guy in front of it. Sometimes too much is just that. Fenix and Streamlight and many other companies make lights for different reason than SureFire.


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## Carpenter (Jan 24, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> I agree...kinda. People trust SureFire. I'm not saying SureFire should turn into Fenix. I think that SureFire should be able to offer Fenix-like performance on AA's. Just update and use AA's because you *can* get incredible performance out of them.


 
It's all based on marketshare. If I owned a business and 10 people out of 1 million told me they wanted AA batteries. It wouldn't happen. Sure I would lose 10 people (maybe), but the R&D to bring something out for 10 people wouldn't be worth it.

This is fun, but I'm tired of seeing these threads (once a week or every other week) with what SureFire should do to be more competitive. Get on their board of directors or become a shareholder if you as an individual want a voice in what SureFire should do in the future.


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

Carpenter said:


> Incan's - Again I am not a LEO even own a gun (different topic), but my guess is that it is easier to clear a building with a medium lit incan (65 or 120 lumens) than a 200Lumen top of the line cree where the guy behind the muzzle is as blind as the guy in front of it. Sometimes too much is just that. Fenix and Streamlight and many other companies make lights for different reason than SureFire.



Makes sense. So lets see some awesome runtime then


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## Carpenter (Jan 24, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> Makes sense. So lets see some awesome runtime then


 
Do you need awesome runtime when clearing a building with your unit? :thinking: Probably not.. 10-15 minutes is more than enough IMO. Again, it's all what the marketshare want.


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

Carpenter said:


> It's all based on marketshare. If I owned a business and 10 people out of 1 million told me they wanted AA batteries. It wouldn't happen. Sure I would lose 10 people (maybe), but the R&D to bring something out for 10 people wouldn't be worth it.
> 
> This is fun, but I'm tired of seeing these threads (once a week or every other week) with what SureFire should do to be more competitive. Get on their board of directors or become a shareholder if you as an individual want a voice in what SureFire should do in the future.



If I owned a company I would want to provide the best value to my customers, which I believe is 40cents worth of batteries putting out at about 150 lumens for over two hours.

As for the "fun" thread I created, a search of "Surefire AA" revealed nothing of the sort. Also, I am not trying to make SureFire compete with Fenix. I think that SureFire should have a product with cheap batteries and good brightness/runtime. That is value, at least in my opinion. As for telling me to but major stock in the company...I am just wondering why they don't use AA's. So far I haven't seen any good reason.

As for the ten in one million...heck, those ten might be right. Do you think that if SureFire offered a flashlight with L2d performance on AA's people would pass up and buy a G2? I wouldn't!


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

Carpenter said:


> Do you need awesome runtime when clearing a building with your unit? :thinking: Probably not.. 10-15 minutes is more than enough IMO. Again, it's all what the marketshare want.



Great idea, actually. How about the new SureFire line: 60lm for 20 minutes! I wonder how well that would sell...I am just thinking of buying a maglight for $20.


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## NoFair (Jan 24, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> Then why is SureFire selling the G2? Most people would rather have a light that uses 20 cent batteries than, at the cheapest, $1.00 batteries. Especially if it has twice the performance in both brightness and runtime. (At least I do!)
> 
> Currently, you can get more brightness than runtime from CR123's than you can from AA's. But SureFire, the company that delivers reliability at the expense of new technology(hint: incandescent bulbs!!), has to milk CR123's (and your bank account, because guess who sells the batteries) to get decent performance-on their current product line?
> 
> How old is the G2? If they start now with a flashlight with L2d-like performance on AA's, I think they will still be selling them in a few years. I think.


 
Hi performance flashlight don't run on alkalines or even worse Carbon-Zinc AAs. They need Lithium or NiMH AAs to perform at the level cr123s do.
These batteries are not that cheap or require a bit of care to maintain.. (NiMHs)

The L2D will not run happily for 2 hours using normal alkaline AAs. I'm not saying it is a bad light, I'm just saying many AAs are bad batteries for lights..

Alkalines also work very poorly when cold, so they aren't great for us Norwegians... 

Some of us prefer incans as well I run mine on Li-ions so runtime isn't really an issue..

Sverre


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## Carpenter (Jan 24, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> Great idea, actually. How about the new SureFire line: 60lm for 20 minutes! I wonder how well that would sell...I am just thinking of buying a maglight for $20.


 
See my posts above...:shakehead

To each their own..


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## SolarMan (Jan 24, 2008)

Here is your 1 good reason: AA batteries can leak!

Lithium batteries can sit in an un-used flashlight for 10+ years and be ready for action...AA batteries will have leaked and ruined the flashlight.

SureFire doesn't want people to grab a light in need and not have it work.

Also...how can they keep their superb warranty policy with lights that take leaky batteries?

AA's are JUNK.


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

Aha! Now I am seeing some good reasons:

1.) Alkalines have short shelf life
2.) Alkalines leak & ruin flashlights
3.) Alkalines can perform at the levels that lithiums do

Ok now I hear reason as opposed to ramble


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

I can't edit my above post for some reason but keep in mind: Lithiums batteries can *EXPLODE* if mixed...Alkalines won't be so dramatic.


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## Mercaptan (Jan 24, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> I can't edit my above post for some reason but keep in mind: Lithiums batteries can *EXPLODE* if mixed...Alkalines won't be so dramatic.



Define mixed? It's never a good idea to put two dissimilar brands or makes together with dramatically different voltages.

That's just common sense. 

If you buy good, CR123A lithiums made in the USA by a reputable company (Duracell, Energizer, Surefire, namebrand!) then you won't have an issue whatsoever. The problem here is that people buy the cheapest available (hello Chinese made CR123A batteries) and all hell breaks loose. Quality control on some of those sub-par batteries is non-existent.


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## ace0001a (Jan 24, 2008)

Just to chime in here: IMO, AAs are an excellent form factor that works well in flashlights. It's a shame some have to have the mentality that they only belong in remotes and toys. Even high end custom flashlight maker Arcmania has such a respect for AAs that he created the Maxlite line of flashlights...and being an owner of a $250 Maxlite Extreme, I can say that it is by far one of the best built flashlights I've ever owned...and it's a single AA flashlight.

Back on topic: I personally don't think it would hurt Surefire to bring out an AA based flashlight. I always felt that it would serve them well to simply bring out a line of affordable flashlights that they could sell at the big box stores that would actually bring their products to the masses. I think it's a joke that $80+ Surefires being sold at Lowes would be considered in that way. Most people wouldn't even blink at wanting to pay $80+ for a flashlight. And of course this is where the elitist will chime in and say something like "it's about the quality", "regular people don't understand" or "if they're not willing to pay, they don't deserve to own one" and I say that's stupid. I'm no business man, but common sense would tell me that if you could get your product to more people that you could increase your earning potential. I personally think it would be great to see a $20 to $50 Surefire flashlight hanging on a Target or Walmart shelf next to their Inovas, Dorcys and Maglites...


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jan 24, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> AA's are excellent. Being the standard battery is priceless. With technology becoming more and more efficient, we are seeing flashlights that can do incredible things, even on a single AAA. Lets compare for a second...one of SureFire's popular lights, the G2 with a Fenix L2d Q5.
> 
> http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/878/sesent/00
> 
> ...


He's comparing high-amp incadescent bulb's efficience with LEDs. Pure genius! Hey, now let's compare Nuclear power with fossil fuel burning plants, now that's a fair comparison...


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

PLEASE read what I have posted earlier. You are not hearing what I am saying. The technology exists to produce the same amount of lumens with much longer runtime from AA's than we could with the old technology used in the G2. Please re-read this thread, a similiar remark has already been made.

I will repeat myself: We can accomplish more brightness and better runtime with AA's now than the G2, which runs on CR123's. So why is SureFire still producing this light, why not make a light with better runtime and increased brightness using inexpensive batteries.


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## scottaw (Jan 24, 2008)

Alright, i usually ignore these threads, but this one i had to chime in....

How many times have you grabbed a AA light (or C or D...) and it sat too long unused, and the beam was about as useful as a penlight? A lot? me too. SUREfire means when you need it, it lights up....that means a long shelf life battery, the 123A.

Comparing a brand new tech P2D to one of surefire's oldest designs, the G2 is ridiculous. I'll keep it simple...P2D lets be generous and say 120 lumens out the front for 60 min. G2L puts out 80 (prob more like 100) for 12 hours. Oh, now we're looking a little better. Lets be fair and compare apples to apples.

Nitecore Di could be a surefire? You're kidding right? I sold mine 1 day after recieving it, i'll leave this discussion at that.

Now before anyone jumps me for this thread, i want to make it clear that I own 3 surefires, a fenix P2D, and owned a DI. So yes, i've had a chance to compare. And if my life was on the line, it would be a Surefire in my hand, Period. (but of course i wouldn't have just one light either....)


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jan 24, 2008)

ace0001a said:


> Just to chime in here: IMO, AAs are an excellent form factor that works well in flashlights. It's a shame some have to have the mentality that they only belong in remotes and toys. Even high end custom flashlight maker Arcmania has such a respect for AAs that he created the Maxlite line of flashlights...and being an owner of a $250 Maxlite Extreme, I can say that it is by far one of the best built flashlights I've ever owned...and it's a single AA flashlight.
> 
> Back on topic: I personally don't think it would hurt Surefire to bring out an AA based flashlight. I always felt that it would serve them well to simply bring out a line of affordable flashlights that they could sell at the big box stores that would actually bring their products to the masses. I think it's a joke that $80+ Surefires being sold at Lowes would be considered in that way. Most people wouldn't even blink at wanting to pay $80+ for a flashlight. And of course this is where the elitist will chime in and say something like "it's about the quality", "regular people don't understand" or "if they're not willing to pay, they don't deserve to own one" and I say that's stupid. I'm no business man, but common sense would tell me that if you could get your product to more people that you could increase your earning potential. I personally think it would be great to see a $20 to $50 Surefire flashlight hanging on a Target or Walmart shelf next to their Inovas, Dorcys and Maglites...


Do you think that Prada and Armani should be producing bargain clothing for the average cheap *** One-Dollar-Store customer? That would bring Prada to the masses too. You need to realize, that certain brands are not really interested in seducing the knuckle-dragging Wal-Mart shoppers . There is a brand for every niche in the market, SureFire is no exception.


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## cy (Jan 24, 2008)

used to be AA cells were inferior to CR123. hence Surefire's cell of choice was CR123. cost was and still secondary to performance for mission critical applications. 

just as we've recently benefited from an almost doubling of LED efficiencies. putting cheaper lights on equal footing with quality lights like surefire in terms of output. 

to it's credit, Fenix has slowly earned a reputation for putting quality lights. then backing it's products up with good local customer service. yes, Fenix is starting to overcome perception of cheap Chinese lights. 

cell technologies has also moved on. Lithium AA cells are becoming common. great performance at a fraction of weight of alk AA. 

got a two week backpacking trip coming up this summer at Philmont. will be counting grams to get pack weight down. got a zebra light Q5 enroute. I'm not so close minded that I'm not willing to look at new options. 

and yes... IMHO Surefire will offer a AA light. hopefully sooner, than later.


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## MSaxatilus (Jan 24, 2008)

> AA's have their place
> Yes, in remote controls, toys and Minimags.


 
 Couldn't agree more! 

Seriously though, I think we've been down this road before several times before..... actually, I posted this in another similar thread not that long ago:



> IMHO, I can't see Surefire EVER manufacturing a light that will use standard size batteries. Whether it be AA, AAA, C or D sized cells, common alkaline cells simply don't have the capacity or performance to keep up with a Surefire target market.... tactical operations.
> 
> It would be equivalent to Lamborghini building a new supercar around a Briggs and Stratton engine, because the parts are available and they are easy to fix.
> Just can't see it happening.
> MSax


 
There are plenty of other manufacturers (Fenix, Streamlight, etc.) that build really nice quality, durable and long running lights based upon the AA platform. I think you're better off looking at them because knowing Surefire's target market and their engineering philosophy, I just don't see the release of a stock AA based light anytime near future.

Then again, that's just my honest opinion. I don't work for Surefire.

MSax


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

Quote said:


> IMHO, I can't see Surefire EVER manufacturing a light that will use standard size batteries. Whether it be AA, AAA, C or D sized cells, common alkaline cells simply don't have the capacity or performance to keep up with a Surefire target market.... tactical operations.
> 
> It would be equivalent to Lamborghini building a new supercar around a Briggs and Stratton engine, because the parts are available and they are easy to fix.
> Just can't see it happening.
> ...



Then how are there AA lights that produce more lumens and greater runtime than CR123a lights? Please answer.


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## MSaxatilus (Jan 24, 2008)

> cell technologies has also moved on. Lithium AA cells are becoming common. great performance at a fraction of weight of alk AA.


 
Good point. Once they can make Lithium AA cells that compete with the voltage, performance and capacity of a 123, then we may see something from Surefire. Who knows.

Again, good point.

MSax


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

MSaxatilus said:


> Good point. Once they can make Lithium AA cells that compete with the voltage, performance and capacity of a 123, then we may see something from Surefire. Who knows.
> 
> Again, good point.
> 
> MSax



Why do we need more voltage? 2x1.5v batteries can generate 100lm easily for a reasonable amount of time. Why boost the voltage if you don't have to?


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## KDOG3 (Jan 24, 2008)

Whoa whoa whoa. Whats this about an "E1b" from Surefire? Whats that? Any pics?


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## KDOG3 (Jan 24, 2008)

Ok just scrounged up a little info. That looks hot. I may be VERY interested in that thing.


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

KDOG3 said:


> Ok just scrounged up a little info. That looks hot. I may be VERY interested in that thing.



Can you post a link? I want to see what it is. Thank you.

EDIT: Never mind, I found it. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2318278&postcount=170


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## Scorpionboy (Jan 24, 2008)

If I remember right... Surefire isn't targeting the masses as much as the military/law enforecement market... so I don't think they'll produce a AA light... "If it ain't broke, dont' fix it."

Surefire lights run great, and if you can afford one, you can obviously afford the CR123's that need to go with it(No hobby is without a downside.) If you want to buy one of these as a toy, then be prepared to pay the tag on the food they want. My step-father was recently deployed in Iraq and his issued 6p came back with him(Over the period he was there, me and my friend came across surefire, unknowing it was what he used.) It has scuffs, marks, the logo is worn off. But he said he wouldn't have any other brand on his rifle. With the military personell being supplied free CR123's I would assume policeman and like occupations would too.

I would see that being becaue these lights are deisgned for them, to keep them safe. Not particularly for us to buy and use as toys so again.. we have to bite the bullet and buy the more expensive batteries... I dunno, maybe I"m wrong. Just my thoughts.


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## ace0001a (Jan 24, 2008)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Do you think that Prada and Armani should be producing bargain clothing for the average cheap *** One-Dollar-Store customer? That would bring Prada to the masses too. You need to realize, that certain brands are not really interested in seducing the knuckle-dragging Wal-Mart shoppers . There is a brand for every niche in the market, SureFire is no exception.



I won't argue that what you said isn't a valid statement. I just simply said I didn't feel that it would hurt their business if they did sell a lower line at the big box stores. I think it's fine they keep their regular line at more specialized retail dealers. If it's brand naming that is a concern, why not have it be branded with another name even? Toyota has Lexus, Honda has Acura...something along that lines if you want to be elitist about it. And besides, I don't consider Surefire as a "Prada" or "Armani" type of product. I more consider them like a Banana Republic or Abercrombie & Fitch in that arena, which does sell premium "affordable" products. I put custom flashlight makers like Arcmania and his group up there as "Prada" or "Armani" level product makers. But back to topic, I still think it wouldn't be bad idea for Surefire to put out an AA based flashlight and/or lower line of affordable line and that's simply where my opinion stands.

Please people, lets not pick apart opinions here...after all, this is a discussion forum for flashlights and everyone should be entitled to their opinions without knee-jerk reactions. Peace Out! :wave:


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## MorePower (Jan 24, 2008)

scottaw said:


> Alright, i usually ignore these threads, but this one i had to chime in....
> 
> Comparing a brand new tech P2D to one of surefire's oldest designs, the G2 is ridiculous. I'll keep it simple...P2D lets be generous and say 120 lumens out the front for 60 min. G2L puts out 80 (prob more like 100) for 12 hours.



And now I have to chime in.

The G2L is 80 lumens for 12 hours? Our very own chevrofreak tells us that the G2L outputs about 60 lumens (after thermal throttling) for about 4.5 hours. Even if chevro's lumen estimate is off, there's no way 4.5 hours = 12 hours.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/176621


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## divine (Jan 24, 2008)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Yes, in remote controls, toys and Minimags.


Why did you separate toys and minimags?


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## MSaxatilus (Jan 24, 2008)

> If I remember right... Surefire isn't targeting the masses as much as the military/law enforecement market... so I don't think they'll produce a AA light... "If it ain't broke, dont' fix it."
> 
> Surefire lights run great, and if you can afford one, you can obviously afford the CR123's that need to go with it(No hobby is without a downside.) If you want to buy one of these as a toy, then be prepared to pay the tag on the food they want. My step-father was recently deployed in Iraq and his issued 6p came back with him(Over the period he was there, me and my friend came across surefire, unknowing it was what he used.) It has scuffs, marks, the logo is worn off. But he said he wouldn't have any other brand on his rifle. With the military personell being supplied free CR123's I would assume policeman and like occupations would too.
> 
> I would see that being becaue these lights are deisgned for them, to keep them safe. Not particularly for us to buy and use as toys so again.. we have to bite the bullet and buy the more expensive batteries... I dunno, maybe I"m wrong. Just my thoughts


 
Exactly!



> I won't argue that what you said isn't a valid statement. I just simply said I didn't feel that it would hurt their business if they did sell a lower line at the big box stores. I think it's fine they keep their regular line at more specialized retail dealers. If it's brand naming that is a concern, why not have it be branded with another name even? Toyota has Lexus, Honda has Acura...something along that lines if you want to be elitist about it. And besides, I don't consider Surefire as a "Prada" or "Armani" type of product. I more consider them like a Banana Republic or Abercrombie & Fitch in that arena, which does sell premium "affordable" products. I put custom flashlight makers like Arcmania and his group up there as "Prada" or "Armani" level product makers. But back to topic, I still think it wouldn't be bad idea for Surefire to put out an AA based flashlight and/or lower line of affordable line and that's simply where my opinion stands.


 
True, but again I think they are comfortable with their current niche serving special operations, military and police. I'm sure alot of this has to do with business as well. They are probably working on a comfortable profit margin serving their existing client base. If they were to shift gears the would likely have to build more, less expensive lights to earn the same profits. That takes capital to enter that realm. On top of that, that market is flooded with the likes of Mag, Dorcy, Energizer, a slew of Chinese manufactures, etc.etc.etc. From a business point of view, why would they want to enter that lions den, when they can continue to be the leader of the pack in a much smaller circle of competing companies?

Again, Lamborghini doesn't complete with Toyota. But I'm sure Lamborghini's profit margin per vehicle is much larger than that of Toyota on the sale of a Prius.

MSax


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## scottaw (Jan 24, 2008)

Ok, so chevro's graph says 4.5 hours (i totally believe him) but still i'll take an underestimeted 80 lumens for 4.5 hours versus the 120ish for an hour with the fenix. that's just me.

And since we're getting all huffy about batteries here, has anyone priced out lithium AA's? Don't complain about the price of SF123A's....They're very closely priced.


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## Monocrom (Jan 24, 2008)

LightJaguar said:


> And this is a perfect example of people not knowing what “tactical” means. By your ignorant remarks I’m also guessing that you do not own a Nicore DI.
> Being the owner of both Surefire lights and a Nicore DI I can assure you that the DI works just like a Surefire straight out of the box. The switch is very simple to operate and you can leave it in the “on” position and use it as a twisty if you wanted to. The user can leave it as it is and the DI will work just like a SF. If the user wanted to use its other features then they *twist the head* and not mess with the switch. Now if a “tactical” user can't handle the DI then they should probably not be anywhere near firearms.
> I for one believe that there are too many Rambos out there and with the new Rambo movie coming out it will probably just get worse.


 
My remarks were far from ignorant. I didn't know that blind men could use computers. How'd you pull off that trick? But more likely you just ignored the link I provided in my last post to Wade's well-made instructional video on how to use the light's U.I. The fact of the matter is, it is indeed a complicated U.I. that comes with the light.

Allow me to explain to you why that U.I. prevents it from being a true "tactical" light. Real tactical lights have no "extra" features built into them. Why? Simple really. This is done to make sure that there is less that can break down if a SWAT officer or soldier in Iraq needs to use his light on a regular basis. Notice I said SWAT officer or soldier in Iraq, not Rambo. (But thanks for showing your true colors and your bigotry with that statement in your post).

Simple lights = Less likely to break down than complex lights. 

That's basic common sense. I seriously doubt my buddy Wade would have taken the time to help everyone out with that instructional video if the light was as simple as you like to pretend it is. It's not a true tactical light. But there's nothing wrong with that. The light is an excellent example of a multi-mode EDC item that can easily come in handy for the average flashaholic. But, the average flashaholic is not "Rambo." :ironic:


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## MSaxatilus (Jan 24, 2008)

> And since we're getting all huffy about batteries here, has anyone priced out lithium AA's? Don't complain about the price of SF123A's....They're very closely priced.


 
...another good point.

MSax


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## Monocrom (Jan 24, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> That is exactly my point. Technology has evolved and is still doing so.


 
As a general statement, you are correct. But all I saw from your other post before you typed the above, was just another apples to oranges comparison of Surefire vs. Fenix. I'm far from being a fan of Surefire's business practices. But why turn this into yet another Surefire vs. Fenix thread?


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

I am not saying that SureFire should compete with Fenix. I am saying that SureFire should adapt modern LED technology as Fenix has done and produce a flashlight that is bright, has decent runtime and uses AA batteries.


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## Carpenter (Jan 24, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> I am not saying that SureFire should compete with Fenix. I am saying that SureFire should adapt modern LED technology as Fenix has done and produce a flashlight that is bright, has decent runtime and uses AA batteries.


 
Again. for what purpose?? Because you request it??


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## MSaxatilus (Jan 24, 2008)

> Again. for what purpose?? Because you request it??


 
Exactly. We're not trying to argue with you more than help you understand Surefire's role and mindset when it comes to building illumination tools.



> I am not saying that SureFire should compete with Fenix. I am saying that SureFire should adapt modern LED technology as Fenix has done and produce a flashlight that is bright, has decent runtime and uses AA batteries.


 
Two lights built on the exact same platform from two different companies? How would they "NOT" be competing over the available market?!?

Also, I beg to differ on your comment intimating that Surefire doesn't adapt modern LED technology as Fenix. They do, they are just much more careful about the components they use. Again, this gets back to their target markets. Fenix's market is CPF types and EDC folks. If my P3D doesn't light up, I grab another light. Surefire is focused on Special Operations, Police and Military. People "depend" on Surefire to work as advertised. If their light doesn't work (in certain situations of course) someone could get hurt.

For example..... I don't remember seeing a Surefire Rebel based light yet. 

MSax


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## MikeLip (Jan 24, 2008)

You guys may as well give it up, you know? No one ever wins an argument over the 'net or on a forum. Surefire will go AA or they won't (I doubt they will any time soon - it took them quite a while to start migrating away from Luxeons), and I doubt a debate here will change anything - they will do business as they please. Their market is not CPF, which fact seems lost on a lot of people. They seem perfectly happy with what they're doing.


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

So their lights are more efficient...why else??????????? They could then have longer runtime, and or be brighter. Of course people hardly ever use a flashlight for more than an hour, but for the famous "5%" SureFire is so proud to serve...there can be a situation where a light may be needed from multiple hours at a time.


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## Carpenter (Jan 24, 2008)

MikeLip said:


> You guys may as well give it up, you know? No one ever wins an argument over the 'net or on a forum. Surefire will go AA or they won't (I doubt they will any time soon - it took them quite a while to start migrating away from Luxeons), and I doubt a debate here will change anything - they will do business as they please. Their market is not CPF, which fact seems lost on a lot of people. They seem perfectly happy with what they're doing.


 
Your right Mike,

Most of the time I stay out of these arguements because they

Go nowhere (this one)
Get locked
Get someone banned
SF does not care about the people on CPF **EDIT**when making business decisions**/EDIT**, I personally care about SF because they make a good light that works everytime (except for the E series clicky ) I go to use them and they work how I want to use them. I personally believe there are several levels of flashaholics. Once a flashaholic sees that the brightest thing or newest thing isn't always the best, they move up a level IMO. Heck, I have a Mag623. If I want lumens.. I got that. Except it stays in it's Pelican case except for those times I need to start a fire :naughty:


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## MSaxatilus (Jan 24, 2008)

> You guys may as well give it up, you know? No one ever wins an argument over the 'net or on a forum.


 
Mike, you're so so so right!! I've made my points. Take em or leave em.

I'm tapping out..... 

We're still all friends though, I hope!!

MSax


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

Ok, I'd like to make one last statement(hopefully)

I know that SureFire makes flashlights that are meant to be reliable and always turn on. I think that is a great reputation to have. I am just wondering why(WONDERING, not trying to convince them to) they don't make an ultra efficient flashlight? So far in this thread people have just been defending SureFire...and not addressing my question. I don't have any problem with the company. I just wonder why they don't make a flashlight whose efficiency is up to par with other manufacturers. I am not trying to make them compete. Please understand. I think that when using a more efficient light emitter, the company has the ability to create lights with longer runtime and prominent brightness, both which I believe are important in a tactical situation.

So: I think that SureFire has one of three important elements down pat that a tactical flashlight should have. They have durability, which I think is the most important. Technology has made it easier for them to conquer the last two categories: brightness and runtime. So, I ponder, why haven't they done so?

I hope this clears things up.


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## Carpenter (Jan 24, 2008)

MSaxatilus said:


> We're still all friends though, I hope!!
> 
> MSax


 
Let's go get some cold ones later tonight.. ex2xe - Your invited too.. 

:grouphug:

:buddies:


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

Haha it is pretty funny how p*ssed people(including myself) get just talking about *FLASHLIGHTS*!!!


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## Carpenter (Jan 24, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> Haha it is pretty funny how p*ssed people(including myself) get just talking about *FLASHLIGHTS*!!!


 
Emotions can run high.. And emotions are one of the top reasons CPF's get in trouble here.


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## MikeLip (Jan 24, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> Ok, I'd like to make one last statement(hopefully)
> 
> I know that SureFire makes flashlights that are meant to be reliable and always turn on. I think that is a great reputation to have. I am just wondering why(WONDERING, not trying to convince them to) they don't make an ultra efficient flashlight? So far in this thread people have just been defending SureFire...and not addressing my question. I don't have any problem with the company. I just wonder why they don't make a flashlight whose efficiency is up to par with other manufacturers. I am not trying to make them compete. Please understand. I think that when using a more efficient light emitter, the company has the ability to create lights with longer runtime and prominent brightness, both which I believe are important in a tactical situation.
> 
> ...



*I* sure don't know. But what seems simple and obvious to you and me may not be quite so simple when it comes time to convince a steering committee, several layers of management, a financial group and various other layers found in most companies of even modest size today. That is just a wild a** guess, but who knows?


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## Monocrom (Jan 24, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> I am not saying that SureFire should compete with Fenix. I am saying that SureFire should adapt modern LED technology as Fenix has done and produce a flashlight that is bright, has decent runtime and uses AA batteries.


 
Like any business, Surefire needs to make profit in order to stay in business and to fund their R&D dept.

Demand is what drives any business. Why does Surefire not make a screaming bright AA light with great runtime? It's because their core customer base doesn't want one. Soldiers, LEOs, government agencies.... none are interested in such a light. There's not enough demand for Surefire to justify spending money on an R&D project to make such a light.


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## Kiessling (Jan 24, 2008)

p1fiend said:


> Surefire should buy the rights to the Nitecore Defender Infinity.
> 
> Slap a "Surefire" logo on it, a $100 price tag, and it would sell like hotcakes.



p1fiend ... now would be the time to re-think your posting style regarding SF. While discussing merits and flaws is acceptable, your agenda is not, as a review of your posting history and participation in latest threads reveal. Take this as a warning.
Thanx.
bernhard


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## defloyd77 (Jan 24, 2008)

I read all these posts talking about Surefire only making simple tactical lights and what not and then I can't help but to think of the Titan. Does that seem like the typical Surefire light? If they can do that, then I suggest they not go the Fenix like route, but how about an Arc like Surefire, tough as f***, long running and you will be able to scavenge batteries in an emergency situation. Can't quite say many can scavenge up lithiums from a tv remote or other common items that use aa cells. As far as storage, you can put a lithium aa in, but if you ask me an aa light would be a better off with you light that you'll use a lot and not have to worry about your next shipment of lithiums.


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

A good idea too.


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## Carpenter (Jan 24, 2008)

I think of the titan the same way as the black HA A2's. They are collectors items. 

There is no doubt AA's are easier to get, however SureFire doesn't sell their lights for those type of situations.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jan 24, 2008)

divine said:


> Why did you separate toys and minimags?


My bad!


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## defloyd77 (Jan 24, 2008)

divine said:


> Why did you separate toys and minimags?



Because toys are fun and worth their money


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## MSaxatilus (Jan 24, 2008)

> I know that SureFire makes flashlights that are meant to be reliable and always turn on. I think that is a great reputation to have. I am just wondering why(WONDERING, not trying to convince them to) they don't make an ultra efficient flashlight? So far in this thread people have just been defending SureFire...and not addressing my question.


 
e2x2e,

OK, maybe I'm just being thick headed now, but I'm confused. Please help me out. I thought that Surefire already has choices for ultra efficient lights:

A2 - 3 lumens for 20 hours 
E1L - 30 lumens for 10 hours
E2L - 45 lumens for 8 hours
L1 - 16 lumens for 10 hours
6P/G2L - 60-80 lumens for 4.5 hours
L4 - 100 lumens - 2.5 hours
U2 - 2 lumens - 40 hours

While these numbers are from SF and vary slightly from source to source, I think you get the point. They offer both blinding bright lights like the M6 or long reasonable brightness like the E2L. 

Simple physics limits you from having both in one light, barring a switching mechanism. Surefire even offers that in some lights. And how would going to a AA make it more efficient?

Just discussing. Corona's on me!!:twothumbs You bring the limes.

MSax


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

Efficient means it does a lot with a little energy. The lights you mentioned all use CR123 lithium batteries. That is like me saying that my kitchen light is efficient because it puts out 1200lm for hours on end-it uses a lot of energy! My idea of an efficient light is one that uses a little bit of power and makes it go a long way-brightness and runtime-wise. Two CR123's have a lot more power than two AA's, yet there are 2AA flashlights that have amazing performance. I just think that there is no reason to use CR123's in flashlights, we can do so much with AA's.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jan 24, 2008)

I may get a KX1 head and the first thing I would do is add a CR123 extension to one of my 2 cell E series bodies and make my own 2AA Surefire light. I will run Eneloop's and it will put out the rated lumens for the KX1 or better. Would be great if SF provided a nice 2AA body, but that place may freeze over before it happens. We CPF folks can do it, think positive, find a CR123 extension, or put pressure on one of our fine CPF modders to produce them for sale. This instead of lamenting the fact that Surefire isn't producing a 2AA LED light.

Bill


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

Argh I just made a whole long post and it didn't go through so I'll try to re-write it:

http://www.rayovac.com/flashlight/se1w2aa-b.shtml

This Ray-o-vac 1W Sportsman Xtreme gets 45lm for 5hr. The runtime should be 5hr in real life, because my 3W Sportsman Xtreme runs for the exact time stated on the package with no visible brightness decline. The Ray-O-Vac uses a Luxeon LED, which is old technology for LEDs. With a new LED, say a Cree for example, this light could easily put out 45 REAL lumens for 5hr, if not more. Now those specs(with my imaginary Cree emitter) are pretty close to the E2l. The runtimes may even be identical between the two if a Cree emitter is used. So, here's my point. Say we want to stick with the E2l concept-45lm and good runtime. I personally would use a Cree emitter and use AA's. As technology advances, the runtime gets longer and longer.

As a result, the operation cost drop dramatically.
2 AA=~45cents
2 CR123A=~$4(Bought online, so shipping was added to the estimated price)

I do see the opposite point though. The extra money goes to the reliability of Lithium batteries. I however would rather use AAs because they are pretty darn reliable and even after ten years you can still(I hope) buy them or take them out of a TV remote. But the Lithiums, when you gotta turn it on after ten years, will work-but if the light is empty and you NEED to use it...good luck buddy.


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## MSaxatilus (Jan 24, 2008)

> Efficient means it does a lot with a little energy. The lights you mentioned all use CR123 lithium batteries. That is like me saying that my kitchen light is efficient because it puts out 1200lm for hours on end-it uses a lot of energy! My idea of an efficient light is one that uses a little bit of power and makes it go a long way-brightness and runtime-wise. Two CR123's have a lot more power than two AA's, yet there are 2AA flashlights that have amazing performance. I just think that there is no reason to use CR123's in flashlights, we can do so much with AA's.


 
OK, I think I understand where your coming from now. You think that AAs can compete, if not out perform CR123s in certain situations expecially if you factor in cost of the battery (Lumens/$$$). So in certain configurations why use CR123s when you can get the same performance with AAs?? Totally makes sense and I completely agree with you.

That being said, IMHO your still not going to see a SF AA because it is pretty obvious that that Surefire has and continues to design their lights around battery sources that provide the most amount of energy in the smallest and most reliable package available. For whatever reason, they have determined Lithium CR123 size cell provides the best solution for size and replacement cost to meet their design goals. 

In addition, going back to Surefire's target market, if all of your lights can be powered from a single battery source, then its easier for the operating unit to share power supplies and carry more backups.

But for your case e2x2e I hope they do make a AA version for you and all the other AA fans out there. 

You do realize that there are alot of aftermarket accessories from various CPFers that will allow you to use alot of SF's heads off of AAs?

:buddies:

MSax


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## MSaxatilus (Jan 24, 2008)

> As a result, the operation cost drop dramatically.
> 2 AA=~45cents
> 2 CR123A=~$4(Bought online, so shipping was added to the estimated price)


 
Yeah, again Surefire isn't factoring this in. They assume anybody that's spending $150 to $300 or more for a flashlight can afford the $2 bucks a pop for a CR123.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jan 24, 2008)

MSaxatilus said:


> You do realize that there are alot of aftermarket accessories from various CPFers that will allow you to use alot of SF's heads off of AAs?
> 
> :buddies:
> 
> MSax



Exactly my point in post #87.

Bill


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## boosterboy (Jan 24, 2008)

LightJaguar said:


> And this is a perfect example of people not knowing what “tactical” means. By your ignorant remarks I’m also guessing that you do not own a Nicore DI.
> Being the owner of both Surefire lights and a Nicore DI I can assure you that the DI works just like a Surefire straight out of the box. The switch is very simple to operate and you can leave it in the “on” position and use it as a twisty if you wanted to. The user can leave it as it is and the DI will work just like a SF. If the user wanted to use its other features then they *twist the head* and not mess with the switch. Now if a “tactical” user can't handle the DI then they should probably not be anywhere near firearms.
> I for one believe that there are too many Rambos out there and with the new Rambo movie coming out it will probably just get worse.




No need for the holier-than-thou atitude, and please stop using the term Rambo, that was really uncalled for.

I've used both, but hesitated on Nitecore purchase (after playing with in a store).

Now it's true the nitecore does have a good momentary switch, but the programming for adjust custom brightness level is rather... complicated.

In a hostile situation, some people loose their cool and their fine motor skills, which effectively turns them into a caveman (hence you don't see people using a multi level light as a their primary weaponslight). they only have gross motor skills left so they can only use the nitecore momentary high.

Unless they drill everyday with a nitecore (and nitecore hasn't established a reputation yet), it's unlikely that the light will be considered tactical.

As of right now, i'm stil waiting for someone to dissect the nightcore before i buy it.


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## SilverFox (Jan 24, 2008)

SureFire has a motto floating around that goes something like

Smaller, Brighter, Better.

I think they should pass over the AA cells and go directly to CR2 cells... 

Tom


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

No, it was:
Smaller, brighter, more expensive


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## MSaxatilus (Jan 24, 2008)

> No, it was:
> Smaller, brighter, more expensive


 
..."More Expensive"?..... hey, consumers choice. If you think they are too expensive compared to the competition... go ahead buy the competition. If enough people do that, it may force Surefire to rethink their marketing strategy.

For me... I agree with Silverfox's statment, they are just..... "Better"!

But then again, I guess you could have figured that out by now.

Cr2s... I'd be into that. That's even "Smaller"

MSax


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

'Twas a joke


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## Khaytsus (Jan 24, 2008)

p1fiend said:


> Surefire should buy the rights to the Nitecore Defender Infinity.
> 
> Slap a "Surefire" logo on it, a $100 price tag, and it would sell like hotcakes.



$100?????   :laughing:


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## kongfuchicken (Jan 24, 2008)

Lithium cells, if made right and used right, are more reliable than alkaline cells.
They might explode if you do stupid things with them but those who use them usually don't do stupid things. 
Alkalines, on the other hand, might leak into your lights or die prematurely even if you don't do anything at all.

Now every surefire model (with the exception of the titan, hellfire and rechargeable models) use cr123s; that should tell you that they trust lithium cells' reliability enough to make it their standard.

As for the cheaper surefire argument, let me quote from SF's website directly:
Regular flashlights out there would probably work just fine for 95% of our users, but we don't build our lights to be "just fine". We build them to excel in the 5% cases where someone's very life could depend on his or her flashlight.


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## cy (Jan 24, 2008)

so long as electronics gives li-ion support. really don't care if it's AA, CR2, CR123, etc. 

speaking of technology marching on... it's not that long ago. consumer use of loose li-ion cells was very uncommon. now there's a proliferation of AA, CR2, R123, 17670, 17650, etc. in protected li-ion cells. 

before I purchase any 1x AA light, li-ion support is mandatory. not many circuits are available that will support 1x AA alk and li-ion. some type of buck boost board will be needed. 

closest was Fenix L1+ and L1-P v1 w/logo on head. those appeared very briefly and were gone. these few early fenix had buck/boost boards that didn't over drive emitter with 14500 li-ion and were able to light up with 1x AA akl. 

there's been sooo many new lights come out. it's hard to keep track of current status. really looking forward to seeing how Zebra light will perform with AA alk and 14500.


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## MSaxatilus (Jan 24, 2008)

> speaking of technology marching on... it's not that long ago. consumer use of loose li-ion cells was very uncommon. now there's a proliferation of AA, CR2, R123, 17670, 17650, etc. in protected li-ion cells.


 
Not really for main stream use though. Aren't these types of cells pretty much limited in use by the RC and flashlight hobbiest?

MSax


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## Carpenter (Jan 24, 2008)

Carpenter said:


> Let's go get some cold ones later tonight.. ex2xe - Your invited too..
> :grouphug:
> 
> :buddies:


 
Dang.. I was at the bar wondering where everyone was.. You guys are still hashing this out??


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

Haha I wasn't allowed in I'm underage


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## cy (Jan 24, 2008)

yep... but trickle down technology is happening all over. 

look at camera stores, R123 appeared there before flashlights. 
just a short two+ years ago, JS burley was still pioneering fabrication of protected R123 cells. 

now it seems like they are all over the place, with AA sized 14500, 17670, 18650, etc coming out in protected versions. 

sure cpf'er's are on the bleeding edge for loose li-ion batteries and light technologies. but trickle down is just around the corner. 



MSaxatilus said:


> Not really for main stream use though. Aren't these types of cells pretty much limited in use by the RC and flashlight hobbiest?
> 
> MSax


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## p1fiend (Jan 24, 2008)

p1fiend said:


> Surefire should buy the rights to the Nitecore Defender Infinity.
> 
> Slap a "Surefire" logo on it, a $100 price tag, and it would sell like hotcakes.





Khaytsus said:


> $100?????   :laughing:


 
If Edgetac sells it for $80 now, then $100 as a Surefire should be a good estimate. By all means, I'm not saying the light is worth $100. I would not buy the light for the normal retail price of $80 (mine was $50), even though I do like what it offers.




Kiessling said:


> p1fiend ... now would be the time to re-think your posting style regarding SF. While discussing merits and flaws is acceptable, your agenda is not, as a review of your posting history and participation in latest threads reveal. Take this as a warning.
> Thanx.
> bernhard


 
I was not knocking Surefire and my post was serious in nature. I see many features and quality that Surefire prides itself on in the NDI. Others do not, and I'll accept that. I had no intention of debating about Surefire or the NDI.

I don't enjoy being publicly warned on a public internet forum. I think all my pervious posts about Surefire are quite vaild: some may not value honest criticism.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jan 24, 2008)

I'm posting this at the end of the first page.

I could take or leave a Surefire AA. There are decent 1 and 2AA lights already.

Why AA? Hybrids/Eneloops/Kodak LSD NimH. Free lumens that are there when you need 'em!

EDIT: It practically takes an act of congress to get me any $1.00 123s. Or too much of ANYTHING online. 
But I can get Hybrids at Walmart on any shopping trip, no special reason like 123s.


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## this_is_nascar (Jan 24, 2008)

I didn't read the entire thread, but I'll answer the poster's question. SureFire made a CR2 based light, something none of use could have ever expected, so I'm not ruling out an AA based light down the road.


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## e2x2e (Jan 24, 2008)

I hope so.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jan 24, 2008)

NOW I've read every single post and I STILL could take or leave (but likely NEVER afford) a Surefire AA light.

A 1AA Cree at this time seems able to do pretty much what *I * need a light for.

I also carry a MUCH dimmer light (LOP SE) and a dimmer light (River Rock 1AA 1W). I mouth hold the LOP.

But I actually get out and USE the 1AA Cree the most.

AGAIN! I am NOT a tactical user. I freaking WORK for a living!


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## defloyd77 (Jan 25, 2008)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> AGAIN! I am NOT a tactical user. I freaking WORK for a living!



Not quite sure what you mean by that, but if you're saying those who truly NEED a tactical light don't work for a living you should be ashamed of yourself. I hope you're referring to wannabe Tac-men, so please clearify.


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## Nosedive4130 (Jan 25, 2008)

Let me start off by saying that I am not affiliated with any Light company.

I personally think that SF has a good thing going for the company in terms of profit by not producing a AA platform. This being that they generally target LEO/Military. 

The reason that I believe this has to do with the Reputation that SF has built for themselves. 

LEO/Military generally want the "BEST", and this includes batteries.

Basically, they Sell one unit for $X amount of money. With the set-up that they have now, they will still make profit on that Very same light for the remainder of that lights life, Because, the Market that has been targeted is using mainly SF branded batteries.

I am not saying that I personally wouldn't enjoy a SF AA. But I am saying that yes, they could possibly hurt themselves by putting a AA platform in the mix of things. 

This "hurt" as I have said, could be brought on by something as simple as one of the previously associated problems with the AA platform. I am sure that as a company with as good of a reputation that they have secured, that they wouldn't want any possibility of a spot on that reputation.

Once again, I am speaking about Profit from the Targeted Market. Not practicality, new technology, longer run-times. Heck, even Longer Run-Times could hurt them. I just wonder how much profit they make per week on Batteries alone.


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## Monocrom (Jan 25, 2008)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> AGAIN! I am NOT a tactical user. I freaking WORK for a living!


 
I too am a bit confused by this. To me, a tactical user would be a SWAT officer, an LEO who wants the best gear, and soldiers serving their country. These individuals all get paid to put themselves at risk. They too, work for a living.


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## MikeLip (Jan 25, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> I too am a bit confused by this. To me, a tactical user would be a SWAT officer, an LEO who wants the best gear, and soldiers serving their country. These individuals all get paid to put themselves at risk. They too, work for a living.



I think people are getting just a little too thin skinned here. Chill out!


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## Carpenter (Jan 25, 2008)

Geesh..

I was at the virtual bar until it closed last night waiting for everyone.. Nobody showed as they were still hashing this out. Give it a rest people and chill before somebody says something that causes a problem..


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## MikeLip (Jan 25, 2008)

Carpenter said:


> Geesh..
> 
> I was at the virtual bar until it closed last night waiting for everyone.. Nobody showed as they were still hashing this out. Give it a rest people and chill before somebody says something that causes a problem..



I'll join you! My favorite niece bought me a case of Presque Isle Pilsner. Great stuff. I'll have a cold one waiting for you.


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## Carpenter (Jan 25, 2008)

MikeLip said:


> I'll join you! My favorite niece bought me a case of Presque Isle Pilsner. Great stuff. I'll have a cold one waiting for you.


 
 

/me buys his virtual plane ticket for a virtual flight for a real beer..:thinking:


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jan 25, 2008)

I was/am referring to wannabe "Tactical" people.

I have no expectation of a light saving me in the sense of just being bright.

I go into some darn dark holes where pressure washers are stashed. Decent light that runs a while is most important.

Home clearing isn't in my job description.


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## LightJaguar (Jan 25, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> My remarks were far from ignorant. I didn't know that blind men could use computers. How'd you pull off that trick? But more likely you just ignored the link I provided in my last post to Wade's well-made instructional video on how to use the light's U.I. The fact of the matter is, it is indeed a complicated U.I. that comes with the light.
> 
> Allow me to explain to you why that U.I. prevents it from being a true "tactical" light. Real tactical lights have no "extra" features built into them. Why? Simple really. This is done to make sure that there is less that can break down if a SWAT officer or soldier in Iraq needs to use his light on a regular basis. Notice I said SWAT officer or soldier in Iraq, not Rambo. (But thanks for showing your true colors and your bigotry with that statement in your post).
> 
> ...


 
As I said before I actually own this flashlight plus a number of Surefires. I know how it actually works and performs. From my experience with the DI I can say with a good deal of confidence that its UI is pretty simple. I think this flashlight would be an excellent light to be used in combat. I for one think that the word “tactical” is more marketing hype then a true product. I have actually been in combat in Iraq and kind of have and idea of what I’m talking about. I apologize if I have offended your inner Rambo with my “bigoted” comments.
I for one think Surefire will do as it pleases because people will buy whatever they come out with. I’m one of them and since I already have a DI I really have no need for a SF that uses AAs.


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## [email protected] (Jan 25, 2008)

p1fiend said:


> I don't enjoy being publicly warned on a public internet forum. I think all my pervious posts about Surefire are quite vaild: some may not value honest criticism.



We don't enjoy having to warn... :ironic: Please take a week off for violating rule #6


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## MikeLip (Jan 25, 2008)

LightJaguar said:


> I apologize if I have offended your inner Rambo <snip>



 Sorry - "inner Rambo" just gave me the chuckles for the last 5 minutes. Don't do that when I'm drinking coffee! Or at least buy me a new keyboard.


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## Monocrom (Jan 25, 2008)

MikeLip said:


> Sorry - "inner Rambo" just gave me the chuckles for the last 5 minutes. Don't do that when I'm drinking coffee! Or at least buy me a new keyboard.


 
I must admit, I laughed at that comment as well. I find it fascinating that many folks look at the Rambo series as nothing more than gore & violence. They are movies, and they are not meant to be educational documentaries. But there's a message behind each one. Resentment from Vietnam Vets who are fed up with being treated like garbage, the lack of government activity in tracking down MIAs, the struggle of a culture against the Soviet Union (before they became America-hating terrorists), and the latest one, documenting the horrors going on in Burma. 

BTW, one of the most sadistic bad guys in the latest Rambo film was a torture victim in Burma. Who better to play such a sadistic character? He knows their mindset. But I'm sure LightJaguar meant his comments to be a bit of an insult. :thumbsup:

My inner Rambo tells me I want cake. I think I'll go M60 the fridge. :laughing:


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## greenLED (Jan 25, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> I think I'll go M60 the fridge. :laughing:


'zat the new brand of kitchen cleaner? :nana:


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## paulr (Jan 25, 2008)

I think it's inevitable that SF will eventually branch out into AA lights. They got a significant amount of Wall Street investment cash mid-last year (I don't feel like googling the press release again but it's been mentioned in other threads) and I take that as a sign that they are gearing up for an IPO, which means big expansion plans. That in turn means going after the market currently occupied by Streamlight and M*g. The new E1b is a stylistic change and I wonder if it's the initial fruit of a lower cost, higher volume (offshore?) manufacturing program than what we're used to from Surefire. If my theory is correct, we should see lots of new models and considerable diversification in coming months.


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## Hitthespot (Jan 25, 2008)

paulr said:


> I think it's inevitable that SF will eventually branch out into AA lights. They got a significant amount of Wall Street investment cash mid-last year (I don't feel like googling the press release again but it's been mentioned in other threads) and I take that as a sign that they are gearing up for an IPO, which means big expansion plans. That in turn means going after the market currently occupied by Streamlight and M*g. The new E1b is a stylistic change and I wonder if it's the initial fruit of a lower cost, higher volume (offshore?) manufacturing program than what we're used to from Surefire. If my theory is correct, we should see lots of new models and considerable diversification in coming months.


 
I completely agree. I smell something. 2+2 still equals 4. Investment Cash, different sales stratagy (Lowes is an example), Chinese competition pressure, a growing explosion in custom LED lights, and the list goes on. Hence the reasoning behind my post we would see an AA light in the next 24 months. Right now the mass market does not buy CR123 based lights. We might even see a C based light. I wouldn' begin to guess if they would go off shore for their mass market lights but who knows in todays world. Wether or not we want Surefire to change is irrelevant. Everyone knows the old saying in business by now. Change or die.

Bill


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## Numbers (Jan 26, 2008)

That might create a whole new dynamic around here. Imagine the threads pitting the SF USA fans against the SF China Fans against non-SF China fans. Ugghhhhh......


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## MikeLip (Jan 26, 2008)

paulr said:


> I think it's inevitable that SF will eventually branch out into AA lights. They got a significant amount of Wall Street investment cash mid-last year (I don't feel like googling the press release again but it's been mentioned in other threads) and I take that as a sign that they are gearing up for an IPO, which means big expansion plans. That in turn means going after the market currently occupied by Streamlight and M*g. The new E1b is a stylistic change and I wonder if it's the initial fruit of a lower cost, higher volume (offshore?) manufacturing program than what we're used to from Surefire. If my theory is correct, we should see lots of new models and considerable diversification in coming months.



I'm not entirely sure that's good news  I have no problem with offshoring as offshoring, but when a company goes public their focus tends to shift. Well, we'll see. I'd hate to see SF become another Maglite-ish company though. I like what they do now. But obviously what I want isn't going to matter a while lot. We'll see.


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## Size15's (Jan 26, 2008)

paulr said:


> I think it's inevitable that SF will eventually branch out into AA lights. They got a significant amount of Wall Street investment cash mid-last year (I don't feel like googling the press release again but it's been mentioned in other threads) and I take that as a sign that they are gearing up for an IPO, which means big expansion plans. That in turn means going after the market currently occupied by Streamlight and M*g. The new E1b is a stylistic change and I wonder if it's the initial fruit of a lower cost, higher volume (offshore?) manufacturing program than what we're used to from Surefire. If my theory is correct, we should see lots of new models and considerable diversification in coming months.


The E1B like all other SureFires is made in the USA. It's styling is different to other models in the E-Series for very clear reasons.

SureFire has already increased their manufacturing capability. The investment capital has been used to broaden SureFire's reach into more mainstream retail chains. SureFire carefully selected several models (G2L, 6PL) to represent their product range in this new retail market sector.

I see no evidence to support the opinion that SureFire is intending to take production to China (etc).

I see no evidence that SureFire is about to release an AA-powered flashlight, or diversify from the SF123A. I am also certain they will continue to discourage the use of aftermarket rechargeable batteries.


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## Hitthespot (Jan 26, 2008)

Size15's said:


> I see no evidence to support the opinion that SureFire is intending to take production to China (etc).


 
I personally hope your right.

My son wants that purple SF. Still have it?

Bill


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## MikeLip (Jan 26, 2008)

Size15's said:


> The E1B like all other SureFires is made in the USA. It's styling is different to other models in the E-Series for very clear reasons.<snip>



Only one thing to say to all that;

I WANT AN E1B!!!!


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## Flying Turtle (Jan 26, 2008)

This may be a bit off topic, but since it's been mentioned I've been wondering lately if all parts of a Surefire are manufactured in the US. Nowhere on the packaging for my L1 or the light itself does it actually say "Made in USA". I have always assumed it was made and assembled here using all US made parts. Seems like they would be trumpeting this on the packaging. Makes me wonder how much (circuit boards, emitters, aluminum stock) might actually be coming from elsewhere? Sorry if this has already been answered many times.

Geoff


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## Bullzeyebill (Jan 26, 2008)

Flying Turtle said:


> This may be a bit off topic, but since it's been mentioned I've been wondering lately if all parts of a Surefire are manufactured in the US. Nowhere on the packaging for my L1 or the light itself does it actually say "Made in USA". I have always assumed it was made and assembled here using all US made parts. Seems like they would be trumpeting this on the packaging. Makes me wonder how much (circuit boards, emitters, aluminum stock) might actually be coming from elsewhere? Sorry if this has already been answered many times.
> 
> Geoff



Not sure I see your point here. Surefire is using Seoul Semiconductor LEDs for their G2L, P2L, and G3L. That company is based in Korea. So I guess that they are using a non USA part and assembling it into some of their flashlights. Is there a problem that the Seoul emitters are "coming from elsewhere"?

Bill


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## Numbers (Jan 26, 2008)

I too hope SF does not change too radically in the future. One can only wonder what type of tension accepting outside capital may create. 
Since they put the E1B on their site along with all of their other current offerings, it seems for now at least that a new "value" priced line is not yet imminent.


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## Size15's (Jan 26, 2008)

SureFires are made in the USA. Of course some components such as SSC LEDs come from elsewhere. Not even Cree LEDs are 100% made in the USA.
SureFire have one of the best production facilities for CNC machining in the USA.


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## Flying Turtle (Jan 26, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Not sure I see your point here. Surefire is using Seoul Semiconductor LEDs for their G2L, P2L, and G3L. That company is based in Korea. So I guess that they are using a non USA part and assembling it into some of their flashlights. Is there a problem that the Seoul emitters are "coming from elsewhere"?
> 
> Bill



I guess if I'd thought a bit more I'd have recalled the use of Seoul Semi. LEDs. It just seemed kind of strange that the packaging and the light had no "Made in ?" mark. I know where they are made/assembled, but I guess the percentage of US made components is a trade secret. Do I care? Not particularly. Most of my lights (and most everything else) are made in China, and I've no problem at all with that, although some purely homegrown products would be refreshing. 

Geoff


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## Monocrom (Jan 26, 2008)

Flying Turtle said:


> I guess if I'd thought a bit more I'd have recalled the use of Seoul Semi. LEDs. It just seemed kind of strange that the packaging and the light had no "Made in ?" mark. I know where they are made/assembled, but I guess the percentage of US made components is a trade secret. Do I care? Not particularly. Most of my lights (and most everything else) are made in China, and I've no problem at all with that, although some purely homegrown products would be refreshing.
> 
> Geoff


 
Don't know about how lights are classified, but I do know that a knife only has to have 40% of it's components made in America to be legally called a "Made in the USA" product. (More of an issue with folding knives than fixed blades). 

I'm really hoping the percentage is much higher for lights to get that classification.


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## e2x2e (Jan 26, 2008)

I hope SureFire continues to produces its products in USA...would be a bad move to move to China in my opinion.


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## MSaxatilus (Feb 7, 2008)

After looking through the Shot Show reports and Surefire's 2008 Catalogs, it does not appear as though a Surefire has plans for a AA light again this year.

We'll see in 2009?

MSax


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## LukeA (Feb 7, 2008)

MSaxatilus said:


> After looking through the Shot Show reports and Surefire's 2008 Catalogs, it does not appear as though a Surefire has plans for a AA light again this year.
> 
> We'll see in 2009?
> 
> MSax



We'll see in 2009 that they still don't have any plans for an AA light.


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## MSaxatilus (Feb 7, 2008)

> We'll see in 2009 that they still don't have any plans for an AA light.



Agreed.

...pretty much the point I was trying to make.

MSax


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## Burgess (Feb 7, 2008)

Sigh . . . .


Yep, gotta' agree with you there.


SureFire won't even throw the *AA fans* a bone. :shakehead


:sigh:
_


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## CandlePowerForumsUser (Feb 7, 2008)

get a nitecore... closest AA you're get to an AA light made by surefire.

I have one and love it


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## MSaxatilus (Feb 7, 2008)

> get a nitecore... closest AA you're get to an AA light made by surefire.
> 
> I have one and love it



Me too!!! Awesome light. :thumbsup:

MSax


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## e2x2e (Feb 7, 2008)

I am getting a NiteCore. Just waiting for TADgear to get them in stock


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## Crenshaw (Feb 8, 2008)

e2x2e said:


> I hope SureFire continues to produces its products in USA...would be a bad move to move to China in my opinion.



Im going to go out on a a very unstable limb here and say i dont really see why....

Granted, yes, made in USA is a great marketing tool from surefire, but companies out of china have been making good products too..just sayin'
 but thats OT, so, dont take it to heart if you really feel that Surefire must must must be made in USA

Crenshaw


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## MikeLip (Feb 8, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> Im going to go out on a a very unstable limb here and say i dont really see why....
> 
> Granted, yes, made in USA is a great marketing tool from surefire, but companies out of china have been making good products too..just sayin'
> but thats OT, so, dont take it to heart if you really feel that Surefire must must must be made in USA
> ...



Not really - it sort of goes to the heart of the matter. China makes good stuff, and they make junk. Depends on how much you want to pay for it. You will closely note that the GOOD stuff coming from China isn't hugely less expensive than US made goods. There are of course the floods of ten-cent Fauxtons and junk $15 U2 ripoffs, but the really nice lights are getting fairly expensive.

The major problem with Chinese manufacturing from a purely practical perspective is keeping quality under control. Communications and monitoring are critical to good product manufacture, and that's harder to do if your factory is 6000 miles away and everyone there speaks a different language.

I'll avoid the political questions - that's an anthill I refuse to knock over


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## Federal LG (Feb 8, 2008)

MikeLip said:


> Only one thing to say to all that;
> 
> I WANT AN E1B!!!!



*+1, Mike! *


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