# Knife Sharpening



## bindibadgi

*Sharpening systems*

I'm at the point where I need a good sharpening system, especially for my kitchen knives. They are getting beyond where the steel can help.

I am intrigued by the EdgePro, but at that price, it's really gonna hurt. Is there anything else out there that would serve as a less expensive alternative? I have to say that I am a complete clutz and I will need something which stops me from ruining all the angles.

Unfortunately, I am also a perfectionist, so I want to be able to get something which will allow me to sharpen my carry knives and my "Educator" (just kidding, but I have a nice big army issue machete which has a few chunks out /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif ) to a really nice polished shaving edge. Of course I need variety in the angles, since some will need nice narrow angles, while the big chopper will need a pretty chunky angle on it.

Man, I'm hard to please, and I hate paying somebody else to do the job, even if it is cheaper than buying all the stuff.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif


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## chmsam

*Re: Sharpening systems*

I've got decades of experience with knives and sharpening.

For the super big stuff, I suggest you look at something like the Lansky Puck. It's a free-hand, hockey puck shaped hone for garden tools and the like. However, taking care of an edge with a chunk out of it is a lot of work unless you can have it ground for you -- but that's definitely not a job for first time users of grinders.

Bench stones are the most versatile sharpeners but take time to learn how to use well. They're the fastest and easiest to use once you have enough practice. No system will easily let you go from a pen knife to a machete. There are a lot set ups and adjustments to be made to let you do that range of blades.

I use a Lansky system and I like it, but I am used to taking time to set up and I usually group knives of the same size, bevel, and shape to do at one time. The EdgePro Apex system is very good but, yes, pricey. These systems are made for smaller knives (usually ~5 inch blade or less) and honing the really big stuff on them takes a bit of getting used to.


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## raggie33

*Re: Sharpening systems*

ive used the sharpmaker and i like it .took me a while to get the gist of it but i do pretty darn good now if ya ask me


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## Anglepoise

*Re: Sharpening systems*

If you are a perfectionist, as I am, get the EdgePro. That will be your last sharpening purchase for the rest of your life.
Period.

I have tried the rest over many years and the EdgePro, Apex or Pro, are the McGizmo of sharpeners.


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## Echo63

*Re: Sharpening systems*

i have used the lansky , smiths and spyderco systems
i find that the lansky and smiths systems are great for taking out chips and reprofiling edges but the sharpmaker (spyderco) is the best for getting a razor sharp edge on your knife 
out of the smiths and lansky systems i prefer the lansky as you can get a nice table top clamp for it or a post that screws to a bench - stops you having to hold the clamp

just a word of warning too - the lansky, smiths and apex systems cant be used to sharpen recurved or hawkbilled or serrated blades (as far as i know)

the spyderco system does do odd blade styles and serrations


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## greenLED

*Re: Sharpening systems*

Watch your fingers!! It seems like everytime I sit down to sharpen my knife, I cut myself /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif


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## Sigman

*Re: Sharpening systems*

I purchased a stone for the Lansky that does serrated. Never used it though! Matter of fact, a friend of mine is the only one who has used my Lansky a couple times. I should sell it! I'm in idiot when it comes to shapening blades - guess it's a coordination thing...some of us have it, some of us don't! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I bought a Sharpmaker some time ago...haven't used it yet either! From what I've read though, I should keep it.

I kept the Lansky for the same reasons Echo63 stated. I've got the screw in mount for a workbench or a piece of wood as well.


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## raggie33

*Re: Sharpening systems*

i bought a 1 buck knife from dollor store for cutting up my food it was dull as a stick lol after the sharpmaker it was scary sharp i was cutting up chciken for nugets and it was like it was warm butter i love my sharpmaker


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## bindibadgi

*Re: Sharpening systems*

I think I am going to follow raggie's advice on this one. I'd love to get the edgepro, but it's a little out of my reach at the mo. I am growing to like the sound of the sharpmaker, although as I said I am UNCO so I think I'll find it hard to hold the blade upright while sharpening (believe me, I'll have trouble lol), so we'll see how it goes. If I really really suck, even after practice, then I'll save for the edgepro. I'm sure I could always sell a sharpmaker anyway.

But it sounds like the sharpmaker will do me nicely. Let's just hope that I underestimate my abilities!


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## bjn70

*Re: Sharpening systems*

For a real dull knife, it seems that the Sharpmaker takes too long. Are any of the others faster at removing material?


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## Codeman

*Re: Sharpening systems*

EdgePro is nice, but the Sharpmaker 204, for the money, is the best buy.

I have two suggestions - put the 204 at a height that will allow you to keep your wrist and elbow locked. Consistency is the key. If you want sharp, pointy tips on your blades, do not drag the tip over the edge of the stone. Stop the stroke with the tip still in contact with the stone. If you pull the tip over the edge, it will slowly round it down.

For re-profiling (really dull edges), the diamond rods for the Sharpmaker are great.

The diamond rods are expensive, though. You can also use a flat DMT-style diamond hone with the 204. Simply lay the hone along one of the 204's stones. Either will quickly remove material.


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## bindibadgi

*Re: Sharpening systems*

Man, those diamond stones make it expensive! I think I'll wait and see if they are needed. I _have_ heard of people being able to sharpen S30V with the standard stones, but I assume it takes a long time. Since That is likely the hardest steel mine will have to touch, and I can be patient, I'll see how I go without shelling out for the diamond. I just hope that the hard steel doesn't wear down the coarse stones too quickly. The fine stones should never wear, being a closed cell synthetic structure. Unless I try to sharpen my wife's engagement ring on them that is. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif


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## bindibadgi

*Re: Sharpening systems*

Oh yeah, I obviously don't read very carefully. That's a good idea with the DMT. If I find a good, inexpensive diamond hone, that could be a very nice solution. Thanks Codeman!


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## bjn70

*Re: Sharpening systems*

[ QUOTE ]
The diamond rods are expensive, though. You can also use a flat DMT-style diamond hone with the 204. Simply lay the hone along one of the 204's stones. Either will quickly remove material. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I built a wooden stand to hold my coarse DMT stone. I cut the stand so it holds the stone at 2 degrees steeper than the sharpmaker. That way if I use the DMT to reprofile the edge, then finish it with the sharpmaker, I get a 2-angle edge that sharpens easier. Also my stand is fairly sturdy so I can use a little more force in the reprofiling.

However I wonder if a coarse natural stone will remove material faster than a coarse DMT.


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## bindibadgi

*Re: Sharpening systems*

I doubt it. Diamond stones are notorious for removing lots of metal, and doing it fast.

Nice idea on the wooden stand though!


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## Codeman

*Re: Sharpening systems*

Remember that, when you're using a diamond hone, don't use excessive force. Doing so doesn't speed us sharpening. It simply increases the chance that you'll knock some of the diamond off of the hone. I never use more than 1 lb of force. Getting an edge to be hair-popping, scary sharp is about finesse and consistency, not force. Let the hone do the work and be patient, you will be rewarded for it!

Having said that, a stable base is indespensible, IMO. If each stroke isn't at the same angle, a sharp edge is next to impossible to reach.


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## Hans

*Re: Sharpening systems*

[ QUOTE ]
*Codeman said:*
Having said that, a stable base is indespensible, IMO. If each stroke isn't at the same angle, a sharp edge is next to impossible to reach. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't quite agree here. I learned sharpening from my father who always sharpened his knives holding the stone in the right hand and the knife in the left. Last weekend I came across one of his old folders he doesn't use anymore. He must have sharpened it *years* ago, and the knife still shaved easily. Sure, when sharpening freehand it's impossible to keep the same angle, but slight variations in the angle result in a sort of "semi-convexed" edge which is easy to maintain and keeps really well under extended use.

Hans


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## Cmoore

*Re: Sharpening systems*

My recommendation is a Lansky with diamond stones for reprofiling and a sharpmaker for day-to-day sharpening


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## Geode

*Re: Sharpening systems*

I have owned an Edgepro and many other systems, but the one that is my mainstay is the Spyderco sharpmaker. After using any of these systems, even the Edgepro, you will likely find that your freehand sharpening skills are greatly improved. The Spyderco allows guided or free hand sharpening, is compact and easy to set up.


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## bindibadgi

*Re: Sharpening systems*

I found one place that will sell me a Sharpmaker system, the diamond inserts and the ultra fine stones for $130 shipped global priority to me in Australia. I think I will do it. That is a good price for the full system, brand new, all shipped global priority.

If anyone knows of a better deal, let me know, but that sounds pretty sweet to me. They also answered my email promptly, so that counts in their favour too IMO.


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## raggie33

*Re: Sharpening systems*

bindi i dont know how to convert usa money to aus money but did you try frogle.com its like a search engine like google but for prices but im not sure if they have good dealers on it or not froogle im not sure if this will help i sume since you are so far way it may cost more


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## bindibadgi

*Re: Sharpening systems*

Yeah, I Froogled it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The cheapest I could find the sharpmaker set for was ~$43. The cheapest I could find a pair of diamond stones was ~$62. The cheapest I could find a _pair_ of ultra fine stones (they are sold individually, unlike the diamond stones which come as a set of two) was ~18. That adds to $123, so this guy is giving me global priority shipping to Australia for about 7 bucks. That aint too bad.

Besides that, the best prices I could find (above) were not all from the same store. No store has a total as low as $120. That means that this guy (who only gave me a quote on the whole lot, not individual bits) is giving me quite a good price.


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## Codeman

*Re: Sharpening systems*

[ QUOTE ]
*bindibadgi said:*
Yeah, I Froogled it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The cheapest I could find the sharpmaker set for was ~$43. The cheapest I could find a pair of diamond stones was ~$62. The cheapest I could find a _pair_ of ultra fine stones (they are sold individually, unlike the diamond stones which come as a set of two) was ~18. That adds to $123, so this guy is giving me global priority shipping to Australia for about 7 bucks. That aint too bad.

Besides that, the best prices I could find (above) were not all from the same store. No store has a total as low as $120. That means that this guy (who only gave me a quote on the whole lot, not individual bits) is giving me quite a good price. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a very good price. I paid about the same for the 204, but the diamond rods were $90 and I think I paid about $45 for the ultra fine rods.

The diamond rods were more expensive because, at the time, they only did a small run. They had already been discontinued once, due to the cost, and they weren't sure they would be able to produce them for a reasonable price while maintaining a reasonable level of durability. Obviously, they did overcome the cost/quality issue, if they're availabled for $62.

You'll really appreciate having the full set. Just remember to not use a lot of force on the diamond hones, so that you don't knock the diamond off.

Do you know if the insructional video is being included? Once you get the hang of the 204, the video isn't much use, but Sal is a super nice fella and he's entertaining to see in the video.


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## Anglepoise

*Re: Sharpening systems*

[ QUOTE ]
*bindibadgi said:*
I found one place that will sell me a Sharpmaker system, the diamond inserts and the ultra fine stones for $130 shipped global priority to me in Australia.


[/ QUOTE ]

The Sharpmaker is an excellent product when thought of as a 'touch up' devise. For its under $50.00 US price, it is a bargain.

However it is NOT a sharpening system as it is has only two choices of angles to use.

And with the purchase of the diamond rods, you are now up to the cost of the EdgePro Apex, that IS a full sharpening system with infinite angle adjustment and your choice of sharpening hones with grits from 180 to 12,000.

Also the Sharpmaker is NOT as easy to use as some seem to think.
You have to be very alert to not wiping the blade tip off the end of the rods. I have seen the tips completely rounded over by mis use.

I have both units and if I had to have only one, it would be the EdgePro every time.


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## Grox

*Can\'t get shaving sharp with a lansky*

I can't get my vg-10 spyderco caly jnr to shaving sharpness with my lansky. Got the lansky a couple of days ago and I can't get it to cut hanging paper or to shave. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I've got the one with 1000, 600, 280, 120 and 70 grit stones. I've tried a few times... nothing seems to work.

Can anyone help?


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## dano

*Re: Can\'t get shaving sharp with a lansky*

The Calypso Jr can get a really (REALLY) sharp edge due to the flat grind. Unfortunately, with a fixed angle sharpening system like a Lansky (fixed meaning that you can only sharpen on the mount's predetermined angles), you'll probably have to reprofile the factory edge so it coincides with the Lansky's sharpening angles.

-dan


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## Grox

*Re: Can\'t get shaving sharp with a lansky*

I see.


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## chrisse242

*Re: Can\'t get shaving sharp with a lansky*

I can't get any knife razor sharp with the lansky. (only standard 3-stone set)
I use a small part of an old leather belt, glued to a piece of wood. Apply any kind of metal polish, and finish the blade freehand. Any blade will be razor sharp.

Chrisse


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## Anglepoise

*Re: Can\'t get shaving sharp with a lansky*

The reason you can not get it sharp is most probably because you are re profiling and not actually 'hitting' the edge.
Get a black 'Sharpie' felt tip and coat the edge.
Now you can see exactly where the hone is rubbing, or not.


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## MoonRise

*Re: Can\'t get shaving sharp with a lansky*

Well, the Lansky doesn't really get shallow enough for a real shaving sharp edge. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

That said, I've used my Lansky to put a really sharp edge on multiple blades. It works quite well.

Like David said, you might not have actually fully sharpened the edge yet. The "marker on the cutting edge" trick can help you see if you actually have gotten to the edge of the blade with the stones yet, or if you are still removing the metal that's behind the edge and still have a while to go before you even get to the edge.

Remember that you are trying to shape the blade so that two planes (or surfaces for those doing a Moran rolled edge) meet at a line. That line is the cutting edge itself, everything else on the blade is just there to enable the edge to be.


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## cy

*Re: Can\'t get shaving sharp with a lansky*

got no problems getting a razor edge with my lansky /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

but I need to qualify that statement. lansky is used to set profile for edge. there is no way I can maintain exact strokes each and every time to make a perfect bevel.

I find once desired bevel is set, lansky has a dificult time feathering a fine edge. so light pressure is needed towards end. 

further like moonrise pointed out, one cannot truely get a razor edge without going to a thin angle. 

if lansky is used as a starting base then work on towards finishing up your edge like Chrisse is doing with compound and leather strop. 

personally prefer a slight sawtooth, so don't usually do the leather strop step. 

these days once lansky has set bevel, finding myself hand sharpening. a few quick stokes and it's back in business.


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## Lurker

*Re: Can\'t get shaving sharp with a lansky*

One technique to get a good sharpening is to hone one side of the edge (call it side A) until you raise a burr on the other side (side B) along the complete length of the edge. Then hone side B until you have raised a burr the complete length of Side A. Then remove the burr and you are done.

Being able to detect the burr is a bit of a skill, but basically it should catch on your fingernail.


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## Grox

*Re: Can\'t get shaving sharp with a lansky*

Thanks for all the advice guys!

I've raised the burr and after that I tried to move to a finer stone. I then tried to progressively move to finer stones. 

Hmm... I'll try using the marker and stropping the blade. I guess it's just practice and experimentation /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## chmsam

*Re: Can\'t get shaving sharp with a lansky*

Okey, Dokey, this will be a little long, but here we go... 

I've been a user of the Lansky system for many years and have been able to get scary sharp edges on virtually any knife I've tried. Here's what I do:

Angelpoise has the first part correct -- mark the edge with a Sharpie marker. If the ink comes off at only the top or the bottom of the edge, you have not got the angle correct. If the ink comes off along the width of the edge completely (or close enough), write down the angle you are using for later reference. Not every knife has the same angle of grind. You need to establish the angle for each knife as it relates to the Lansky (or whatever system you're using). If the maker or manufacturer uses a 22.5 degree edge and the Lansky is set up for a 20 or 25 degree edge, you'll have to make the knife fit. The Lansky is not infinitely variable.

I use diamond hones. Yep, they are not as cheap as other hones, but they work faster. You can use any of their variety of hones. In fact, most of this will apply to any sharpening system, but since consistency is critical, use the Lansky. Remember, though, you really can take off too much metal, so pay attention to what you are doing.

Start with a coarse or extra coarse hone. Examine the edge of the hone under a bright light (Gee, where can we get one of those?). I use a jewelers loupe to get a close up view but some can "eyeball it" or use a magnifying glass. Check to be sure you are sharpening all the way down to the very edge. If not, keep going until you do. You need to establish the angle and that might mean taking off what seems like a bit more of the edge than you think. Be sure to hone the edge until you get the entire edge worked 'cause if you don't you won't ever get a sharp edge. This is where most people goof it up -- they aren't patient enough. You need to so this to get the edge established, but usually you only need to use as coarse a stone as this rarely after you do it the first time. 

Once you have the edge coarse honed, just repeat with progressively finer hones. Examine the edge as you go along to be sure that you are still maintaining the same angle.

Check for a "wire edge" or a burr that forms when the knife edge seems to become very sharp. What often happens is that the edge rolls over, forming a wire edge/burr. This is very shrap but quite brittle. If the knife seems to go dull very quickly, this is probably what has happened. Get rid of the wire edge by backing off the angle slightly (move the hone up one slot) and very lightly run the hone along the edge on both sides to remove the burr. Remember, you need only very light pressure and only one or two strokes to do this. Continue to hone or finish by stroping with a strop or a flat piece of cardboard to polish the edge if desired.

YMMV, but I use a fine diamond hone and then an extra fine hone (1000 grit). I finish with a Sapphire stone (2000 grit). Then I strop the blade with a leather strop that I only occasionally charge with a yellow strop paste (you do not need much). This is for an extra sharp edge.

If you don't use a lot of slicing cuts (paper, tomatoes, and the like), but use push cuts (rope, cardboard, and so forth), you do not need as sharp an edge as this. If that's the case, you don't need more than a medium fine or fine stone.

Now, as to checking how sharp the edge is, do not try to shave hair or see if it will catch your fingerprints unless you want to use up a few bandaids or get a stitch or two. Paper that you hold loosely in your free hand is much less painful. It's one of those "Don't do what I do, do what I say" things.

Remember, for safety's sake, you only need a knife that is sharp enough to cut what you need to cut. Most of us are not surgeons.

Here's some more advice, learn to use a steel and/or a strop, and you will sharpen a lot less often. Frequently knives need to have the edge realigned, and not resharpened. Why grind away your knife blade if you don't need to?

Hope this helps.


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## ZeissOEM2

*Re: Can\'t get shaving sharp with a lansky*

Have been used Lansky since 1983 and no problem to get it razeor sharp. chmsam have given the info to do it .I have only used the standard Lansky sharpen system +one fine diamond.,and the last finish is done with ceramic sticks and leather .


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## cy

*Re: Can\'t get shaving sharp with a lansky*

seems we are all saying the same thing. lansky is an excellent tool to sharpen with. 

it's only a guide, proccess to achieve razor edge is no different from free-hand sharpening or any other proccess. 

sharpen edge to generate a burr, then switch sides to gently remove that burr. past that it's your choice how fine you want to go. 2000 grit, leather strop etc.

some disadvantage of lansky: 

1. cannot do custom angles with lansky, so first use usually requires removal of lots of material
2. spot clamped determinds how lansky will shape your curve, possibly damaging blade. 
3. difficult to repeat exact angle set by lansky. so it's best to complete job, before removing clamp
4. clamp can scratch blade, so put several layers of masking tape on before clamping.

apex edge pro allows you to match up tool's angle with existing blade angle. but they sure are pricy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## RAF_Groundcrew

*Re: Can\'t get shaving sharp with a lansky*

Sometimes you don't really want a 'thin' edge, as it will be weak when used for heavy tasks, adn may chip or fold.

I have used a lansky kit for years, and have recently bought a second set, with additonal hones (sapphire included), as soe of the original hones were wearing hollow.

I have no problem getting a super sharp edge on my spyderco knives, but it will take time the first time, as there is more metal to remove in order to shape the edge to match the Lansky angles. I sharpen all but one of my spyderco knives on the 3rd slot from the blade, and this seems to give a good result. Sharpening one sided blades such as benchmade/ emerson 970 is difficult, so I adapted a LAnsky clamp with a longer slotted piece on one side, to give the asymmetrical angles needed (the standard clamp doesn't go 'steep' enough).

When I'm using the finer final grades, I use very litle pressure, but take more care. The final stones just polish the edge, so It can take hours !!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/touche.gif


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## chmsam

*Re: Can't get shaving sharp with a lansky*

As RAFgroundcrew said, thin edges will chip or break. However, that's usually a problem of trying to use the wrong tool for the job.

If you move the clamp up or down the blade, the Lansky will not damage a larger blade or change the curve. The vast majority of people don't do this, so for larger blades or curved edges there are perhaps better ways to sharpen.

The Lansky system is best used when yo want to maintain a consistant angle and, like myself, find that "muscle memory" doesn't work as well as you'd like to do that. YMMV, but I simply find that the time spent to set up the clamp and guide rods is less than the time I spend trying to get my grip on the knife just right for using bench stones.


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## Grox

*Re: Can't get shaving sharp with a lansky*

Thanks for all the advice guys! I'm still learning and when I get time I'm going to go back and slowly sharpen the knife 

When I look at the reflection of a light on the knife blade, I can see that my edge isn't perfectly smooth lengthwise and that there are still micro-serrations on the blade edge. I assume that the ideal edge would be perfectly reflective at one angle (to the light) only and that the edge would be perrrrrfectly smooth.

One thing I really would like to do would be to learn how to strop and to use steels. 

I'm just getting into knives now and I'm really loving them! My family and friends aren't into knives so its pretty hard having learn all this off just written materials on the net. I find that it's difficult for me to appreciate how to do things until I see them done and do them myself.

Cheers
Grox


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## murdock47

*Re: Can't get shaving sharp with a lansky*

I never could sharpen any knife worth beans until I picked-up a Spyderco Sharpmaker. Now I'm sharpening dull knives hair-popping sharp!

Murdock


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## Spidey82

*Sharpening Rods*

How about those free hand diamond sharpening rods?
Are they useful?
anyone get a shaving edge with those?
linfeng


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## racerx2oo3

*Re: Sharpening systems*

Well having just gone down this road, I can say that I think that using a traditional benchstone approach is going to be the most satisfying in the end. It does take some time to learn how best to use the stones, but once you do, you can pretty much sharpen anything with them. 

I'm a total cheapskate when it come to things like this. But what I ended up with was a Japanese 800 grit water stone that my wife bought me for christmas. This stone really does a great job on setting up the edge. I then picked up a very cheap ($6) Arkasas stone that I use to really finely sharpen the edge. This stone is very small, and knowing what I know now, I would probably go with a bigger one, however this does the job, it just takes a little more work. The final step and what now seems to me to be the most important in getting a really razor sharp edge is stopping the blade. Knive strops can be pretty expensive, they don't need to be. I went to Wal-mart, and picked up a nice wide ladies belt (rhinestone buckle optional). This belt had a 100% leather liner. I cut a good sized section and screwed it tauntly to a 2x4. I picked up a can a Turtle Wax Rubbing Compound and applied a small amount to the leather and stropped the blade almost flat on the leather. The result is an edge that you can shave with. My el cheapo Smith and Wesson Extreme Ops knife will shave the hairs off my arm. My swiss army knife that I've had for 8 years and never sharpened, is so sharp now that the hairs literally jump off. 

The best part is that once you learn the techniques involved you can pretty much use them on any knife.


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## SJACKAL

*Re: Sharpening systems*



racerx2oo3 said:


> Well having just gone down this road, I can say that I think that using a traditional benchstone approach is going to be the most satisfying in the end. It does take some time to learn how best to use the stones, but once you do, you can pretty much sharpen anything with them.
> 
> I'm a total cheapskate when it come to things like this. But what I ended up with was a Japanese 800 grit water stone that my wife bought me for christmas. This stone really does a great job on setting up the edge. I then picked up a very cheap ($6) Arkasas stone that I use to really finely sharpen the edge. This stone is very small, and knowing what I know now, I would probably go with a bigger one, however this does the job, it just takes a little more work. The final step and what now seems to me to be the most important in getting a really razor sharp edge is stopping the blade. Knive strops can be pretty expensive, they don't need to be. I went to Wal-mart, and picked up a nice wide ladies belt (rhinestone buckle optional). This belt had a 100% leather liner. I cut a good sized section and screwed it tauntly to a 2x4. I picked up a can a Turtle Wax Rubbing Compound and applied a small amount to the leather and stropped the blade almost flat on the leather. The result is an edge that you can shave with. My el cheapo Smith and Wesson Extreme Ops knife will shave the hairs off my arm. My swiss army knife that I've had for 8 years and never sharpened, is so sharp now that the hairs literally jump off.
> 
> The best part is that once you learn the techniques involved you can pretty much use them on any knife.




I gotta admit that I done about the same too 

What I did was that I used my weider weight lifting belt, it's wide and the liner is leather too. I used a mixture of oil and diamond power (my dad's, used for polishing jewellery and watches). Turtle Wax is something new. It is those turtle wax used for buffing out light scratches on automobile paintwork?


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## _mike_

*Re: Sharpening systems*

I have an EdgePro "Pro", though the Apex is cheaper. Here are a few of my observations.

Pros:
Relatively easy to use.
Infinite angle adjustments.
Reproducable results.

Cons:
Setup, unless you have a place you can leave it. Makes doing simple touch-ups kind of cumbersome.
Requires water (might not necessarily be a con to some folks)
Makes a little bit of a mess.

I find it's really great for our kitchen knives. For smaller pocket knives I have not yet perfected it, though I do get them sharp. Also, many smaller pocket knives have some interesting grinds, thumbstuds, and make it more challenging to lay properly on the blade rest/support. I prefer a bench stone for my smaller knives. Since I use my knives (not saying you guys don't) I don't care if I scratch the blades .... gives them character.

I have never used a Sharpmaker, but will probably get one simply for the ease of setting it up and less mess for simple touch-ups. However, if you eventually go this route (two different systems) note that the angles will probably not be interchangeable. In other words, you probably won't be able to go back and forth between an EdgrPro and Sharpmaker without making some minor adjustments to compensate for the small differences in angle between the two units.

If you have more time than money, go for a bench stone. Something like the Norton 175 anniversary fine/coarse 8" India oil stone for around $12.00 at Smokey Mountain Knife Works. With a bench stone you could shim one end until you get the desired angle and start in. Practice with cheap knives until you get good, doesn't take all that long really.


----------



## racerx2oo3

*Re: Sharpening systems*



SJACKAL said:


> Turtle Wax is something new. It is those turtle wax used for buffing out light scratches on automobile paintwork?



Yeah, it's the rubbing compound. They make two different varieties. One is more of a buffer and one (the Rubbing compound variety) is more abrasive and works great for getting a final edge on a blade. 

I can pretty much shave with either of my EDC knifes and niether one is anything special to start with.

Racer X


----------



## dbedit

*Knife Sharpening Techniques*

I thought I would start a thread where we can share our thoughts and techniques on how we sharpen our knives it seems many members enjoy and use both lights and Knives.

I use a Steel Lapping Plate and Diamond Paste to put the edges on my knives, and chisels. My lapping plate is a perfectly flat steel plate mounted to a hard maple block. I then put on various grits of diamond dust paste to achieve the desired result on the edge up to 20,000 grit for the polish. I have to admit on my more costy blades and chisels I use a honing guide to keep my angle rather than just eyeballing it.

I am really looking forward to how some of you sharpen a serated edge. I have neve done it.


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Knife Sharpening Techniques*

There are several other threads on sharpening that have been posted within the past few months, but most deal with various systems (Apex, Lansky, and the like). Free handing with stones, strops, and/or lapping isn't discussed very often, though. 

I generally use a Lansky system since I have pretty poor muscle memory, well for sharpening anyway. I do use a few different stones and DMT and Lansky diamond laps, and from time to time use a lapping setup I made from a piece of heavy plastic panel and various grits of sanding sheets. This is a setup I use mostly for chisel ground edges that I want topolish and not use a water stone.

Anyhow, I just try to come up with a consistant angle and that works for me, but I still fid that using a rig helps me a lot.


----------



## Echo63

*Re: Knife Sharpening Techniques*

i currently own a smiths sharpening thing 
a lansky setup (similar to the smiths one)
a spyderco sharpmaker 
a diamond stone and a long diamond steel
and 2x lansky/crock stick systems

the small crock stick system lives in my BOB
the sharpmaker lives on my desk for quick touch ups
and the lansky is used for heavy reprofiling, removing chips etc


----------



## AJ_Dual

*Shapening system - Gift Suggestion:*

I am getting the inevitable "What do you want for Christmas?" questions. One of the things I'd like to have is a sharpening system for my various knives. 

I do okay by hand with stones, the blades I've worked on may not be "shavin sharp" but will slice paper almost effortlessly. However, I know I can probably do better with a "system".

I've been doing some research, and am aware of various systems like the Lansky, and the Spyderco sharpmaker, and have read the threads discussing the pro's and con's of many, to the point of overload. From the standpoint of practicality, I've decided, that a sharpening system is probably better than no system, and it's not something I'm likely to buy for myself any time soon. 

So I want to look at it from the standpoint of a potential gift-giver.

- What systems are commonly availible in retail? My relatives aren't likely to go on-line. Wal-Mart, Dunham's, Sports Authority, Sportsman's Warehouse, and Gander Mountain, are in my area. I've been keeping an eye out, but haven't seen anything, and stores often "gear up" for hunting season, and may have items on the shelf I wasn’t seeing previously.

- Are any of them under $50, I don't like asking for things that are too expensive.

- Also, has anyone seen a mini-steel, or a ceramic touch-up rod at these stores? If the full-blown system isn't availible, or someone's looking for more "stocking stuffer" size things, these would be good.


----------



## nethiker

*Re: Shapening system - Gift Suggestion:*

Sounds like you are looking for the Spyderco Sharp Maker System. It's the one most recommended in this threat over at bladeforums.com and the price is about right.
Greg


----------



## Lee1959

*Re: Shapening system - Gift Suggestion:*

The two best I have found for the normal user to jump right into are the Spyderco Sharpmaker rods, and the Lansky type system. 

Of the two I would recomend personally the Lanskey for ease of use, and flexiblity to determine the edge bevel one wants for given tasks, IE: kitchen knives generally have a finer bevel, and field knives generally have a thicker bevel for harder use. If you get the Lansky, go the whole ten yards an dbuy the diamond hones set, with the finest stones also, plus you can buy a clamping system to hook it to a table if you do not want to free hand it. 

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?ttl=Lansky%20Clamping%20Systems&srch=eqCATE%20CODEdatarq%3Dls%26eqWWWCAT_4datarq%3Dclamp

Gatco also makes a "Lansky" style sharpening system, which is I beleive cheaper. http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?ttl=GATCO%20Clamping%20Systems&srch=eqCATE%20CODEdatarq%3Dga%26eqWWWCAT_4datarq%3Dclamp

The Spyderco is great also, and easy to use. 

My wife uses both, but prefers the Lansky on most knives. Another thing to do is invest and learn how to use a butchers steel or leather strop, your knives will love you for it.


----------



## MoonRise

*Re: Shapening system - Gift Suggestion:*

The Lansky kits are generally available in retail stores. IIRC, the basic kit should be under $50. And then you can also ask for some optional hones, like maybe some diamond ones (a coarse diamond hone would be nice for when you have to or want to reprofile a blade), or an extra fine hone, or ... you get the idea.


----------



## sniper

*Re: Shapening system - Gift Suggestion:*

Crock sticks like are available at any of the Sporting Goods stores you mentioned, or from AGRUSSELL.com , and will do anything you need, if the knife has a fairly stiff blade ~6 in. or less. It will put a shaving sharp edge on the blade. 

That will take care of 95% of the knives you're likely to want, and it is fast, easy, idiot proof and relatively inexpensive.


----------



## AJ_Dual

*Re: Shapening system - Gift Suggestion:*

One of my primary blades is a Benchmade CQC-7 with a single-bevel chisel edge, are "crock sticks" the two ceramic rods in a "V" formation?

I don't think that would work for my single bevel knives... But if they're inexpensive, I've got plenty of traditional double ground blades that would benifit.


----------



## sniper

*Re: Shapening system - Gift Suggestion:*



AJ_Dual said:


> One of my primary blades is a Benchmade CQC-7 with a single-bevel chisel edge, are "crock sticks" the two ceramic rods in a "V" formation?
> 
> 
> I don't think that would work for my single bevel knives... But if they're inexpensive, I've got plenty of traditional double ground blades that would benifit.



Yes, the "v" shape.

Not sure what a single-bevel blade is, but the sticks work well on most knives. For the straight scoop on what may or may not work best for the single bevel blades, go to knifeforums.com. The guys there are very knowledgeable and helpful. And they display photos of knives to make you drool.


----------



## bindibadgi

*Re: Shapening system - Gift Suggestion:*

The Spyderco Sharpmaker is one of those V-Type arrangements, but the sticks don't cross over near the bottom like other ones. That means it is perfect for single bevel blades, since you work on one side at a time anyway.

I would thoroughly recommend the Sharpmaker. I bought it along with the diamond and extra fine stones, but really, in hindsight, what comes in the standard box is all you need. You just need a little patience on a really dull blade; it can take some time. It does a fantastic job though!


----------



## AJ_Dual

*Re: Shapening system - Gift Suggestion:*

I've been seeing so much info about the Spyderco and the Lansky, I'll just ask for either. 

From what I can pull out of the "info overload" from my earlier searching is that any pro's or con's for either is getting into nitpicking territory compared to not having a sharpening system, and it gives my relatives two options to find one.

A single bevel blade has a profile like a chisel, flat on one side, and angled on the other. Instead of a "V" shaped profile, think of the blade edge having an, well uh.. an "N" shaped profile, but with the left vertical stroke not there, obviously...

You sharpen only the single side of the blade, leaving the flat side alone, other than stropping to remove the wire edge.


----------



## DimBeam

*Sharpening a Leatherman Micra scissors*

Is there a easy way to sharpen the scissors on my 9 year old Micra? Thanks


----------



## Solstice

*Re: Sharpening a Leatherman Micra scissors*

I wonder the same thing since that's the reason I stopped carrying my 8 year old Micra 4 years ago.


----------



## was_jlh

*Re: Sharpening a Leatherman Micra scissors*

Never tried it, but you may be able to do it on a Spyderco SharpMaker.


----------



## Lurker

*Re: Sharpening a Leatherman Micra scissors*

I agree, the sharpmaker has a very effective scissor sharpening mode that I have had good success with. I have never tried sharpening a micra, but it should work fine. 

Otherwise, any flat bench stone can be used if you know the technique.


----------



## SJACKAL

*Re: Shapening system - Gift Suggestion:*

I just gotten a standard set Lansky and used it, much more expensive for me to get it here as compared to ordering online. So far so good, perhaps I will get the plastic base too. I also just realised that I can do multi-bevelling of 1 degree differences with the Lansky system by a nifty trick of adjusting stone height with the rod cramp. Perhaps the blade can even be stropped into a slight convex edge thereafter.


----------



## cratz2

*Re: Shapening system - Gift Suggestion:*

I used to sharpen kitchen knives professionally, admittedly on a small level, and if I recall, my very first post on CPF was on knife sharpening. Anyway, I digress... 

I used to own the non-diamond Sharpmaker and it works very well, esp for many serrated or wavy kitchen knives and that is primarily what I used it for. For general straight edge kitchen knives, I always found the best thing was a few strokes with a steel to make sure the edge was relatively straight, then about 10 medium strokes per side then about 5 soft strokes per side with a small pocket diamond 'steel' - the one I use has a brass handle and the steel unscrews then screws back in the other way.

If the knife had taken somewhat of a beating or was used against something other than a cutting board, I used the large 8"x3" diamond stones. They are sold under various names but if they cost less than about $20 each, they probably aren't the same quality. I had a coarse and an extra fine. Obviously maintaining the same angle and not using too much pressure is key.

I learned to sharpen on Arkansas stones and can use them readily but diamonds are probably the way to go as long as you don't sharpen too often. If you're the sort of guy that likes to touch them up every 2 or 3 days, the diamonds might wear down the profile if you use uneven pressure. Having said that, I suspect most knife junkies are likely to replace their primary knife before the diamonds change the blade too radically.


----------



## Lee1959

Joe brought up an interesting point in a previous thread, it just begs the question. What kind of knife sharpening equipment do you use, and how do you use it. What kinds of edge bevels do you put upon an edge? Do youuse multiple bevels for different uses?

Personally I use various methods from stones, including japanese water stones for final finishing, to Lansky Type Sharpening Systems, to sanding belts to crock sticks, to folding diamond rods. I strop or steel a lot between sharpenings. 

I use a myrid of edge bevels depending upon the use I intend the knife to be put to. I prefer a completley flat ground blade from spine to edge usually (or partly down the spine depnding upon the width of the blade ) to any type of hollow ground or other type of grind like convex. This is just personal tastes derived from the years of using blades.


----------



## psimonl

The best I've used in 8 different kinds and the one I'm always coming back to...... Drum Roll...... The Spyderco 204 Sharpmaker... Ta daaaa...

Simon


----------



## psimonl

*Re: Shapening system - Gift Suggestion:*

The lansky is great.... Until you get the Spyderco Sharpmaker...

Not only you can get knives hair popping sharp, no wich what steel it is made of, but you can sharpens scissors, screw driver, wood chisels, darts, fish hooks,...

It really is all you need...

Simon

BTW, I'm a little bias by Spyderco. I just love everything they do...


----------



## chmsam

The best sharpening method is whatever works for the person using it. I know a lot of people who use Spyderco, Lansky, and Apex systems. I know quite a few more people who "free hand it" with stones. Whatever gets the job done best for you. 

Mastering the technique for any method is most important. Search out information on how to establish an edge, how to repair an edge, how to regrind an edge, and how to determine the proper angle. Get those down and you can handle just about anything.


----------



## Lee1959

*Ummm ok*

Ohh k, chmsam, can't argue with that at all . Was not asking for a debate over the best techinque or equipment, simply was asking what everyone uses to accomplish the task. Whatever works, for them...


----------



## bjn70

*Sharpmaker and DMT diamond stone*

I have a coarse DMT diamond stone, and a Sharpmaker.

I built a wooden base to hold the DMT stone at 18 degrees. I use it like a Sharpmaker for rough profiling, then I use the Sharpmaker at 20 degrees to actually put an edge on it.

Not sure if I'm impatient or just not doing it right, but I wish I had some coarser stones for the sharpmaker.


----------



## Lee1959

I believe they make diamond sleeves for the Sharpmaker rods which should help you perhaps.

Just looked and found them, they are not sleeves but entire rods, and they are a little pricey... but they do exist. 

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=SP204D


----------



## powernoodle

Sharpmaker here. I'd love to become an expert in sharpening, but its about #2409 on the list of things I'd like to do. So I stick with the Sharpmaker.


----------



## justsomeguy

Hi




,

The Spyderco Sharpmaker is probably the best choice for most people. Especially for kitchen knives.

There is one drawback. It will round over the tip. If you need to retain a needle sharp tip a Lansky or similar device is better.

Steve


----------



## Lee1959

My wife likes to use the Lansky for her kitchen knives as it allows her to put a finer edge on them easier than trying to adjust the angle on the hold while drawing down the Sharpmaker.


----------



## Anglepoise

I use an EdgePro for the following reasons.
Sharpening is all about selecting an edge angle and then being able to sharpen, and importantly….re sharpen, at that exact same angle, so one not only finishes up with a sharp edge but also an edge that has even bevels, both sides, and looks darn good.

The angle setting device should be infinitely variable and 100% repeatable so that all knives can be sharpened with the minimum of metal removal.

Grit size needs to be quickly changed for re profiling and varying degrees of sharpness. Some of my knives have mirror polished edges, arrived at with 6,000 and up grit.

Other blades, mostly used in the kitchen and requiring a little ‘tooth’ , get the 220 grit treatment. And sometimes I will use a combination of both, all on the same blade ( who needs serrations ).

The only sharpener system I know of that can do all this,
is the EdgePro. A truly remarkable sharpening system that will save you money as you won’t buy anything else afterwards.


Now a comment on the Sharpmaker 204.
The 204 does an excellent job on knives that match its angles, but it fails to be seriously considered as a 'full sharpening system'. For this, one should look for something with infinite variable angle adjustment at the very least.

The Sharpmaker is primarily a ‘touch up’ tool, that only works on two fixed angles, 15° and 20°.

If your edge is not at one of these two angles, you are forced to hold the blade tilted from vertical ( guess ), or re profile to 15° or 20°. Re profiling is not best suited to 'V' rod/triangle style sharpeners as it is very time consuming and really needs the expensive diamond rods to accomplish this. If you purchase these you are now up in price to the EdgePro Apex.

Also with the Sharpmaker, you must not let the blade run off the end of the rod during the sharpening stroke. If you do this more than a few times, you will round over the blade tip. Not desirable.


----------



## fasteddie

EZ Lap diamond stones (actually diamonds bonded to a precision milled steel plate), then a Lansky ceramic dog bone, then a leather strop. For angles, I match the angle put on by the knifemaker by feel and sound. For crappy mass produced knives, or knives that are in bad shape, I try to go 20 degrees. The most important thing is to keep a steady hand and a constant angle. Roll the edg and it will never get sharp.


----------



## SolarFlare

Lee1959 said:


> Joe brought up an interesting point in a previous thread, it just begs the question. What kind of knife sharpening equipment do you use, and how do you use it.


 
Just begs the question. Why do you sharpen your knives? seems to me like there's a lot of people with expensive knives, and expensive sharpening systems that don't actually use the knives they own for anything except cuttin their own thumbs on a sharpness test. 

You can spend as much money as you like on a "sharpening system" but if you can't feel your "edge" then you'll never achieve it. Buy a few crap knives an sharpen them for all they're worth, put an edge on an old butter knife. Use a stone or the system you chose. You get a "feel" for an edge, you'll know when you've got it.

Back to the point.......... why sharpen your knives if you don't actually use em?


----------



## guyg

*Re: Sharpening a Leatherman Micra scissors*

The Sharpmaker will be fine. I even sharpen the scissors on a Swiss Army Knife with it.


----------



## SJACKAL

Lansky, but I realised that the pre-set angles on the slots are not really true angles, the 25 degrees slot yields about 20 degrees on my knife in reality. Since the final true angle is relative to the distance which the edge is away from the Lansky's back versus the slot's height, I sort of plot out the diagrams on pencil and paper like a maths student and measures the angle before I starts sharpening. A little adjustment of a few millimetres on the stone height can change the angle by 1 or 2 degrees and a multibevel edge can be achieved.

Used to use waterstones, but never developed the skills for it and scratched many knives.


----------



## Lee1959

Solar, I dont have any knives I don't use. I may have too many to use at the same time, but they all get used. Some get used more than others, and they get sharpened more than the ones that do not get used often. I do not sharpen a blade until it is dull enough that stroping will not bring it back to hair popping sharpness. Not quite sure how you would get the idea they do not get used as I never once stated that.


----------



## was_jlh

*Re: Sharpening a Leatherman Micra scissors*

my niece left her leatherman last night for me to sharpen. the sharpmaker did a fine job on the scissors.


----------



## SolarFlare

It wasn't _pointed  _at you Lee it was a general question. I wondered what people used their knives for, does anyone put different angles on different knives for different tasks?. I was also curious about what people used their knives for.


----------



## parnass

Lee1959 said:


> Solar, I dont have any knives I don't use. I may have too many to use at the same time, but they all get used....



I am trying to follow the *same litmus test* when it comes to flashlights so I don't start collecting "shelf queens" as I did with pocket knives and lockbacks a dozen years ago.

I probably have about 100 knives, but haven't bought any more since the early 1990s.

My most common uses for folding knives has been cutting a vent slit in the plastic tops of frozen food containers before placing them in the microwave oven, cutting open bags of dog food and water softener salt, cutting the tape on shipping boxes, and cutting braided rope.

My other use for knives has been to give them as gifts to non-knife collectors. I've given away a few dozen knives to folks who have shown kindness or have provided good service.

For sharpening, I use a set of Cutlery World 2-stage crock sticks (sharpening rods held in a wooden base).


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## savumaki

I have nine knives in my kitchen block and I use them all, some more than others obviously.
For sharpening I use Gatco, ceramic sticks. ceramic block, various stones, diamond pocket sharpener (for my EDC pocket knife or whatever), leather strop and of course the steel.

I have no problem getting knives to a VERY sharp condition (and yes I use two angles on each blade). The kitchen knives largely share the same angle.

So whats my problem? Enter the good wife, who bless her soul can cook up a storm but has not the faintest concept how a knife should be sharpened, nor does she really care since she has me. She can make mixers, ovens, blenders, juicers, and whatever work to their fullest to produce the wonderfull delights she creates.

For her I would like to get a power sharpener, PLEASE, PLEASE, please, all you puriests don't cringe in the closet; after all there are among us persons who have the need but not the skill to sharpen knives.

You say , why not you; quick answer, NO TIME.

I have surfed far and wide to find only one sharpener, CHEF's CHOICE model 320, that would fit the bill. I do not want the aggressive first stage available on a lot of sharpeners.

I apologize if this is somewhat off the main tone of this thread ( and admin. pls start new thread if you deem it requires it)

I guess I answered part and asked another. :candle:

Karl


----------



## sniper

savumaki said:


> So whats my problem? Enter the good wife, who bless her soul can cook up a storm but has not the faintest concept how a knife should be sharpened, nor does she really care since she has me. She can make mixers, ovens, blenders, juicers, and whatever work to their fullest to produce the wonderfull delights she creates. :candle:
> 
> Karl



Yesssss! No problem. For the kitchen knives, I use a Chef's Choice two stage power sharpener, which my wife gifted me with a few Christmases ago. Fast, and works great for the kitchen and fillet knives. In fact, my daughter in law cut herself using one about a month ago. I wasn't there, so her stepdad, who is an engineer, complained to my wife the knives were "too sharp." My wife shut him down with the truism; "A sharp knife is safer than a dull one." Only if you use the sharp one properly, which wasn't the case, there. 

EVERYTHING else between the lengths of 2"-~6" with fairly stiff blades goes on the crocksticks. Angle? Whatever the sticks are set at works fine. Double angles? Waste of time, & PITA! Sharpmaker? Great product; had one, didn't like it. 

Hunter Honer: Light, handy, if both of my carry knives get dull dressing an animal. Small, crossed metal sticks, puts a good edge on most anything. One failure. I had a custom knife, and the blade was so tough, it wore flats on the sticks when I tried to sharpen it. 

Stones? Years of frustration B.C. (Before crocksticks) :hairpull:

For all other problems, which are darn few, there is this marvelous knife store in town, where they can put an edge on Jello for $1 an inch.


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## Lee1959

Actually, my father has arthritis in his hands and cannot sharpen knives like he used to, I was doing it for him and my mother but I could tell he kind of wanted to do it himself (hes one of those independent types  ), so I looked into electric knife sharpeners and picked the Chefs choice. I got him the 4 (I think it is 4, 3 or 4 top of the line model)stage model, with the "strop" last stage which is the reason I picked the top of the line. And he loves it. The knives do come out wicked sharp I have to admit, and as long as he does not overuse the first couple stages, and primarily uses the strop and fine stage it should not destroy his fine kinves, well fine being relative as I made them and they are mediocre at best. I have been keeping a close eye on them and so far, I see no undue wear to the blades edge, and it has been a year or better. 

In comparison, my sister used a can opener knife shapener, and destroyed her knives in less than a year. 

So, used in moderation with a bit of common sense, I see no reason she shouldnot be extremely happy with the electric model like the Chefs Choice.


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## savumaki

The knives do come out wicked sharp I have to admit said:


> That's why I would prefer the model that has two stages with strop the final. That I think I can convince her to use w/o abusing the blade
> 
> It's called a transfer of responsibility; I have enough to look after with my EDC and hunting knives
> 
> K


----------



## GarageBoy

*Re: Shapening system - Gift Suggestion:*

Sharpmaker is more versitile, but the Gatco/Lansky makes reprofiling idiot proof. (that can be done on the sharpmaker by wraping the rods in coarse alumnium oxide sandpaper)


----------



## GarageBoy

*Re: Sharpening a Leatherman Micra scissors*

Sharpmaker..normally on scissors, you have to adjust the set too (the overlap) but that's not an option


----------



## mahoney

*Re: Sharpening a Leatherman Micra scissors*

A diamond file or thin diamond hone works well if the scissors aren't "sprung" or too dull. Otherwise send it back to Leatherman, they can replace/refurbish the scissor blades (or the whole tool) if necessary. And on items that were worn out but not abused that were still under warranty (25 years) I have not been charged for this service.


----------



## Hondo

I am very old school, and lucky enough to have behind me thousands of edges on every type of sharp tool imaginable, along with quite a few fixed blades made from scratch. This has given me the ability to feel the flat of an existing edge I want to maintain, or visually set and hold an angle on a new blade which was not satisfactory. My tools now reflect a tolerance for new technology, as my medium and fine stones are DMT diamond stones, but I still use a coarse carborundum stone for major re-shaping of edges. Most re-sharpening begins on a fine, hard Arkansas stone belonging to my great grandfather, and it is the final stone for every job. I no longer prefer to oil the stone first, as it is not only messy, but pushes the nearly finished edge through the steel laced oil. Rather, I work it dry and oil it after each blade to float the steel from the pores of the stone, then wipe. The final step is always a red rouge charged strop, which I made many years ago. This will show visually in it's reflection any burrs left from the stone which do not come out after a few strokes, and a few very light trips back and forth to the stone results in a true polished edge that "leaves no survivors" when shaving the hair off the back of my arm. Many mistake a few hairs cut, but more left behind as a true shaving sharp edge. Please be carefull if you attempt this testing method, I only do it for show anymore as I can tell if the edge is going to pass without actually doing it.


I would not suggest that most people have the time to learn to do this, but once you do, you will fear no blade shape, material or condition at the start of a job. I have long forgotten the last time I laid a blade down on a pass and scraped the flats on the stone. If a new user did want to hone their skills on bench stones, I would suggest spending a lot of time on inexpensive kitchen knives and the like, rather than your new Benchmade Axis folder. 

Tips:

To sharpen fast - for abused/hard blades, just use a coarse enough stone with long strokes and plenty of pressure and you can get there reasonably quickly. Too fine of a stone for a big job will take FOREVER.

To make blades last - Only sharpen each portion of the blade on a given grade of stone long enough to turn a burr to the opposite side. Once this has been achieved on each side, move to the next finer grade stone, and don't skip any grades on the way down.


----------



## lymph

Great advice here. I use one of these knives: http://www.jonesdoublereed.com/images/123_large.jpg
daily. It is hollow ground on one side and bevelled on the other. Extremely easy to sharpen - just hold the flats against the stone. No lifting to specific angles necessary. I sharpen with a diamond stone (rarely - only if needed, which is not often), japanese water stones up to 8000 grit, and finally a leather strop with Flitz for a mirror polish.

Unfortunately, this knife has sort of spoiled me and I am not so good at sharpening things with curved blades like most pocket knives or kitchen knives. I can do double-hollow-ground blades, though, like straight razors. As long as they're straight.


----------



## SJACKAL

*Sharpening angle for BM710HS*

Owners of Benchmade 710HS M2, may I inquire what's your sharpening angle?

I read of people putting up to 15 deg angles on this blade, and also read of several putting 18 degs.

I am planning on doing it multi bevel at 16, 17 and finally 18 degs on mine. I guess the angle greatly depend on individual usage on the knife, but I guess I can only say I want to do it for a pocket knife doing general cutting chores.

If you have 18 degs or lesser, how does the m2 blade held up? Any problems with chipping or sever rolling say if you hit a staple while slicing down corrugated boxes?


----------



## jtice

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*

i have a spyderco sharpmaker, I think those are 25 degree?

Seems to do great on mine, I tend to be hard on knives, thats why I bought the M2 version 

The M2 will probably hold that angle fairly well, though I really dont think its needed,
unless all you cut is paper, cardboard, rope etc.
I hack up wood, plastic, hell debur metal LOL :devil:

~John


----------



## SJACKAL

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*

I read about it at zvis' site and got interested.

Anyway I already made the first mistake - not using diamond stones. It took me more than 3 hours to get the bevel done, and its just only one side, now I am feeling drained, maybe I will continue the other side another day :thinking:

Not good to work sharps when your tired...


----------



## jtice

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*

Whoa ! no dont try using none Diamond stones. oo:
Unless you are just doing a quick touchup on the edge.
I should have mentioned that. 
You really have to keep up on an M2 blade,
even though it will stay sharp a very ling time, 
it will also take a very long time to sharpen.

Also, maybe I am wrong, but I personally dont think its a great idea to do one side at a time.
I work alittle on each side as I go.
What sharpening system are you using?
I guess if you are using an edge-pro or Lanskey it would be ok.

What angle did you decide on?

~John


----------



## Spudman

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*

I have the sharpmaker and I plan to use it when my 710 needs sharpening. I've used it several times and it still hasn't needed a touchup. Should I be giving it a few strokes just in case? I sure don't want to spend hours sharpening the m2 steel.


----------



## jtice

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*

Really depends on how you are using it.
But it wont hurt.

The first time is gonna take you a while though,
so that the Sharpmaker can get its angle on the blade.
I forget what the 710 is from the factory.

But once you have it angled with the Sharpmaker, 
a few whipes here and there every week or so would be great.
With M2, its alot easier to just keep up with it.

~John


----------



## Joe Talmadge

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*

The whole reason to go with the tougher harder blade steel is so you can get increased performance -- and you get increased performance by reducing the edge angle! For most people, the 710HS will handle 15-degrees per side without breaking a sweat, and in fact will take several degrees below that. If you know you're using your 710 particularly hard -- batoning it through trees or something  -- you might go higher. But the vast majority will be happy running it at 15 degrees, and most would get away with less than that. I feel that if you're leaving a thick edge on this thing, you've wasted your money ... no reason to go with the tougher steel when 154CM/ATS-34 holds up to 18-20 degrees per side easily. 

Joe


----------



## wquiles

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*



SJACKAL said:


> Anyway I already made the first mistake - not using diamond stones.


Yes, once you buy a higher-performance steel, a diamond sharpener is a "must". A little more money than a regular set, but it last much longer "and" it sharpens the better/harder steels much faster as well . Like John said, it takes a little bit of time to "set" the initial angle, but after this, it is much faster to maintain the angle.





Joe Talmadge said:


> The whole reason to go with the tougher harder blade steel is so you can get increased performance -- and you get increased performance by reducing the edge angle!


When I learned this, I found what angle works by trying different angles with different steels on my Lansky (sp?) diamond multi-angle sharpening system.

Joe's excellent advice is exactly how I look at knives before I sharpen them. If the steel is better/harder, or if the blade will mostly be used for lighter tasks, I use a smaller angle for a fine cutting thin edge. But if you know the blade will get hard use (dare I say it, "abused"), then John's 25 degree would be more prudent, even with harder steel such as M2 


In my humble opinnion, I think the idea/goal is to get the "thinest" angle that you can get away with, given the intended use, and given the strength/quality of the steel being used, without getting so thin that you will chip/damage the edge while using it. I personally tend to be a little bit more conservative in this regard with "normal" steels and go more "agressive" (thiner edge) with the premium steels that I have tried (ATS-34, 154CM, BG42, S30V). 

After several years of EDC duty, I for one "really" love the BG42 of my small Sebenza - simply outstanding. Once sharpened, it "seems" to stay sharp for ever!. I have used my mini Ritter (S30V) very little and I have not even touched up the blade yet, but so far I am impressed . ATS-34 (my older Benchmade 710) is a very good steel, but from my personal use, not as good as BG42, since I had to sharpen it more often. 

My only 154CM is a Benchmade Presidio (model 520), and I expect it to be as good as ATS-34, maybe a tad better in edge retention. Will see with time how well it does in real use.

Thanks to John I recently got a Nimravus (plain edge, M2 steel), so based on Johns feedback I expect it to behave extremely well 

Will


----------



## Joe Talmadge

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*



jtice said:


> i have a spyderco sharpmaker, I think those are 25 degree?



If you have an old sharpmaker with just one angle, it's 20-degrees per side. IMO, WAY too obtuse for an M-2 blade, but I've ranted enough on that  

If you have the 204 sharpmaker, with two angles, there's a 15-degree slot and a 20 degree slot.

Joe


----------



## GarageBoy

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*

you can make it pretty damn thin, I know guys running at 10 degrees and under per side

cardboard is pretty much a reason you want M2 since its so abrasion resistant. And try not to hit staples, it doesn't matter what steel/angle it is, IT WILL chip/dent


----------



## SJACKAL

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*

Sorry guys that I posted the thread and disappeared, I was away for a few days, thanx to all who replied.

John, I used a lansky, so no problem. The good thing about it is that I can leave the knife clamped there and put away for a few days before I continue.  

Joe, you one of the famous guys on sharpening! I read your excellent article! Its hard to find it coz I dont have bladeforum membership and there are much broken links on google. Thanx for your reassurance about the angle. I plan to multi-bevel it approximately at about 16, 17 & finally 18 deg.

Anyway I had done both sides and I will do the rest of the angles later. The problem with the ceramic stone is that it gets clogged so it gets slower and slower, now my coarse stone is like the medium stone. Will get a coarse diamond stone for reprofiling in future.


----------



## Joe Talmadge

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*



SJACKAL said:


> Joe, you one of the famous guys on sharpening! I read your excellent article! Its hard to find it coz I dont have bladeforum membership and there are much broken links on google. Thanx for your reassurance about the angle. I plan to multi-bevel it approximately at about 16, 17 & finally 18 deg.



http://www.edcknives.com/vcom/knife_knowledge.php  

Although you're better off just getting a membership at bladeforums. It's free.

Joe


----------



## SJACKAL

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*

Done! I finished off with stropping on leatherback charged with diamond power. Didn't do it till mirror polish but its smooth enough


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*

Just to add my two cents worth, by marking the edge with a felt tip marker and then lightly running the edge over a hone, you can determine the proper angle. Too high off the stone and all you sharpen is the very tip. Too low and you rub off the ink away from the edge. Get it right and the edge gets cleaned of ink. This has been mentioned in other threads on thhis topic.

And as also can be found elsewhere, what you cut most often should determine the angle of the edge of the blade.

There's an article in the most recent issue of Blade magazine that has a few knife guru's reasoning behind how much and how often you should sharpen. It's worth reading.


----------



## cbxer55

*Re: Sharpening angle for BM710HS*

Both of the knives I edc are CPM steel. The Spyderco military has been around for a few years and seen much abuse. Mostly I just use the ceramic rods on a daily basis to keep it sharp. I only break out the Lansky kit if it gets chipped, which has happened once or twice. It is at 18 degrees. My other edc is the Benchmade Neil Blackwood with 4.5 inch S30V blade. I bought it about 6 months ago and have not had to sharpen it yet! When sharpening I work both sides evenly, unless it is a chisel grind. Chisel grinds you sharpen the beveled side only, then lightly rub the flat side on the hone to break the wire edge. Same goes for serrated edges. The only serrated edge I have on me is the second blade on the leatherman Charge, and it rarely gets used.


----------



## 2000xlt

*knife sharpening*

how is this?, i am looking at something to keep my knives i only have 4, razor sharp. i once saw a video where the guy sharpend his ax and shaved off a full beard with it, NOW THATS ....... SHARP!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Edge-Pro-Ap...ryZ43220QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## Bogie

*Re: knife sharpening*

The Edge Pro is consider the bbest system buy most of the knife community down side is the price around $300 retail. 

The CRKT Slide Sharp is another that gets High Reviews
CRKT 

I my self use a Lansky Pro System with Dimond Hones
Lansky 

Gatco makes a Lansky style system that can be had for less thats a good system for about $50
Gatco


----------



## magic79

*Re: knife sharpening*



2000xlt said:


> how is this?, i am looking at something to keep my knives i only have 4, razor sharp. i once saw a video where the guy sharpend his ax and shaved off a full beard with it, NOW THATS ....... SHARP!!!


 
You're right! And, the guy that shaves with an axe has a company that makes very, very good sharpening equipment, videos, and books. I bought several things from him a few months ago...good stuff and quick to ship.

http://www.razoredgesystems.com/

I've used the CRKT sharpener too, and at least in my hands, it's junk.


----------



## dniice87

*Re: knife sharpening*

I use the Spyderco Sharpmaker and i like it alot. One great thing about it is u can sharpen just about anything on it not just knives. You really cant beat if for the price ($46)


----------



## ghostrider

*Re: knife sharpening*

I use both the Lansky and the Sharpmaker. The Edge Pro is considered the best, but since I've never used one I can't compare them to what I have. I like the Lansky for heavy work with a diamond Extra Coarse hone, and the Sharpmaker can't be beat for edge maintenence. 

Just my $.02.


----------



## nzgunnie

*Re: knife sharpening*

I use the lanskey system, I find it works really well for smaller blades.


----------



## whiskypapa3

*Re: knife sharpening*

I still use my Grandfather's Novaculite stones from the 1890's. My father added manmade stones (AlOx. Carburundum etc.) during the 30's and I added diamonds to both collections. They taught me how to set a proper edge, well enough to sharpen my Uncle's scalpels, to carve a ham paper thin (thier trademarks) and to repair straight razor blades. Shaving with an axe was a piece of cake, did it many times as a Scout Master. Getting a good edge just takes practice and a bit of concentration, you can learn how to judge blade angles fairly quickly and the feel of the steel on the stone when you are doing it right. 

I just finished a couple of knives. The final edge work was done on 400, 1000 and then 2000 grit "Wet-r-Dry" glued on glass and honed off on 8000 mesh diamond on sole leather, my go-to setup for the last 35 years. Bee-you-tee-fulll!!


----------



## chmsam

*Re: knife sharpening*

As always, it just depends on what you want to cut. Showing off is one thing, but a razor sharp ax isn't what I'd actually want to use.

There are tons of sharpening hones, stones, and systems, and the debate can go on for a loooooonnngggg time.

Personally, I use a Lansky with diamond hones, a Crock Stick block, and a leather strop. I have one or two knives I run across the 4000 grit paper glued on a flat piece of plexiglass.

Testing the sharpness is the one almost universal thing I have seen people (myself included once in a while) do with almost a total lack of sense.

Dumb -- shave hair.
Dumber -- run across thumb.
Dumbest -- run against fingerprints (and you can just bet someone is gonna cut themselves trying this today, right?).

In a magazine article, A. G. Russell suggested using styrofoam peanuts and trying to slice them as thinly as possible. It takes a real sharp knife to get them thin enough to see through and it's a lot safer.


----------



## xochi

*Re: knife sharpening*

I'm not sure of the manufacturer but there is one of those lansky type sharpeners sold in wal-mart ...don't bother with it. Complete junk.

According to the Edgepro guy , diamond stones are mainly useful for sharpening extremely hard (ceramic) blades. His argument is that most blade steels , even premium stainless and tool steels, will tend to end up with the diamond material embedded in the steel and stripped from the stone. 

Chris Reeve knives recommends the Spyderco Sharpmaker for their knives. I own a sharpmaker and find it to be an excellent and extremely versatile sharpener. I use the Sharpmaker to maintain the edges of a bunch of different types of knives. Just today, *on the jobsite *with no convenient place to set up something like an edgepro or a lansky, I put a shave sharp edge (would have gone to Office depot to pick up styrofoam peanuts but I noticed the hair growing on my arm :nana: ) on a cable splicing knife that sees very hard use and had become about as dull as a butter knife. This knife was rusted , had the tip broken off, had uneven spots in the edge from cutting into copper and aluminum cable but the Sharpmaker (and knowing how to use it) still got it shave sharp. I've used the sharpmaker with a wide variety of steels in a wide variety of locales. The stones last a very long time and I've found that the waterless hand cleaner that we keep on the job does a great job of cleaning the steel out of the stones. The sharpmaker could be improved, but, IMHO there isn't a better sharpening system available once portability , versatility , ease of use and cost are factored in.

The Edgepro is probabally overkill for maintaining 4 knives and users tend to complain that setup is sort of a pain and generally a pemanent mounting place is preferred. There was a thread on the edgepro but it may be lost now. It certainly does a great job on most knives and is also good for "reprofiling" an edge since it can be used to set somewhat precise angles.

I'd love to learn the flat stone "knack" but after pricing decent stones decided against that route, however one great thing about learning 'stones' is that with creativity any sufficiently hard , flat , abrasive material can be used in a pinch.


----------



## cbxer55

*Re: knife sharpening*

I use one of two methods to test sharpness. Try cutting toilet paper sometime with a dull knife!! It takes wicked sharp to cleanly cut TP, especially on single ply against the grain. Anything will cut with the grain if it is somewhat sharp, but against the grain is another story.

The other methid is thumbnail. Hold thumb vertical facing down. Place knife blade on fingernail at about 45 degree angle, again facing down. Slowly slide blade across nail. Any dull spot and the blade will slide right off the nail. It should feel "bitey" as it goes across without sliding. If it does slide, it goes down off the end of your thumb, where there is nothing to cut.


CBXer55
Oklahoma City


----------



## chmsam

*Re: knife sharpening*

Don't get me wrong -- I've done all the bio-mechanical how-sharp-is-it? tests, and have the scars to prove it. It's just that I might finally be getting smarter, albeit less macho, with my methods of seeing how sharp the blade can get. That and the fact that I no longer carry all that many Band-Aids.

Pretty much the concept is whatever you are comfortable using, and will actually use, ends up being the best system.


----------



## Sturluson

*Re: knife sharpening*

If you learn to sharpen "free hand" - using skill and experience rather than a purchased sharpening system - you can sharpen your knives, axes, scissors, froes, pruning hooks and toenail clippers anywhere, anytime and with a minimum of equipment. Believe me, if you lose the sharpening stone in your pack while camping, you can use a fine-grained rock as a fair substitute.

Becoming less instead of more dependent on "systems" is an ideal worth striving toward.

(but the Sharpmaker does work pretty well....)


----------



## DimWatted

*Re: knife sharpening*



Bogie said:


> The Edge Pro is consider the bbest system buy most of the knife community down side is the price around $300 retail.


I think you're thinking of the price point on the “Professional” model. The "Apex Original Kit" goes for $135. 

I’ve had the Professional model for a few months and have been pleased with it. In retrospect I think the Apex model would have sufficed for my sharpening needs. Not that I’m complaining. 

Anyway, to add my two cents in answer to 2000xlt’s question, I think that were one to purchase the Edge Pro Apex, they would be happy with it and think it a good value. Given the price point it’s listed at on eBay and the seller’s limited rating, I might opt for buying directly from Edge Pro, but that’s just me. The Edge Pro website also has additional items you can spend money on, although right now the site is looking funky and is a little hard to navigate. http://edgeproinc.com/ 

Ironically, putting a razor sharp mirror finish on one of my pocketknives is one of the things on my list to do tonight but instead I’m looking at flashlights. Off to sharpen…


----------



## J_Oei

*Re: knife sharpening*

There is a sharpening contest going on:

link

The current leader is Ben Dale and his EdgePro.

I have one and have been getting hair-popping edges for a while.
My wife initially complained about the cost of the sharpening system, but 
since I keep all the kitchen knives really sharp, she doesn't complain any more.
In fact, she has been volunteering my services to our neighbors!


----------



## MScottz

*Re: knife sharpening*

After reading some of the "research" at the link posted, I don't have much respect for that type testing, it's not exactly scientific.


----------



## Anglepoise

*Re: knife sharpening*

I consider 'sharp' to be able to cut a 'hanging hair' or shave arm hair with the blade 1/4 inch above the skin.

The EdgePro Apex at under $130.00 can accomplish this with a small learning curve.

It is without question the finest manual sharpener available.


----------



## DimWatted

*Re: knife sharpening*



Anglepoise said:


> I consider 'sharp' to be able to cut a 'hanging hair' or shave arm hair with the blade 1/4 inch above the skin.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Oops. Just shaved off part of my fingertip while attempting to do the hanging hair test. Hand - eye coordination was never that good. Just a minor injury though. …off to apply pressure to wound.


----------



## mccavazos

*Re: knife sharpening*

I just bought a sharpmaker and I love it. Quick question: Can I use the 30 degree angle for my 557? It has 440C steel. WIll it hold that edge well?


Thanks,
Chris


----------



## bjn70

*Re: knife sharpening*

440C is pretty good steel so the 30 degree angle should be OK for that, depending on what you use the knife for. A blunter tip might be advised if you wanted to do mostly chopping but for general use I think 30 degrees is what is recommended.


----------



## RA40

*Re: knife sharpening*

In theory (To some extent my experience as well.) these pre-set angels get you close but the edge angle varies based on how the main bevel was gound, steel hardness and items being cut.

What may shave great may not perform well when cutting a harder material. An axe like edge will be great for chopping wood but slicing through your steak or fish will be a challenge. Like your lights, some edge bevels are better suited for specific tasks, which is why a multitude of knives are purposeful. 

Edge sharpening isn't rocket science so there is a good deal of variance in use. Last I measured my jig, 26 degrees or so was a nice compromise in edge bite and durability. My sharpening system is a bit different but it takes what I was able to adapt from the Lansky. A degree or so won't be obvious. 

My usual test for my edge bevels: roll up 20# laser paper to see if the edge will bite into it when held perpendicular and at an angle. Same motion as if steeling your kitchen knives. I don't shave arm hair or finger nails...too dangerous IMO.


----------



## RA40

*Re: knife sharpening*

Found a pic...

Any knife makers who may be challenged while sharpening on your grinder...this may be of some benefit. Main thing is consistency from tip to shoulder. None of those multi-angle edge grinds to throw off how sharp a knife is at certain points. Also the range on how aggressive or fine I want the edge. This is limited by the grit of abrasive, my usual is 320 or 400 but some I've done at 220 and 600. YMMV of course and this has worked well for me.

Buying a big belt grinder isn't practical but I thought I'd show how I did my sharpening. 







While I haven't used the Lansky in years, I keep the top clamp so that in the event I can use a ceramic guided stone.


----------



## mccavazos

*sharpening a tanto blade*

How do you sharpen a tanto blade? I've tried a couple of times and my point has gone down. I have the sharpmaker, and I have tried sharpening the edges individually, but I cant get the point back.


Chris


----------



## CLHC

*Re: sharpening a tanto blade*

I messed up my Benchmade/Emerson CQC7's Tanto point too! Looks like gotta send it in to the "professionals" for sharpening. . .


----------



## mccavazos

*Re: sharpening a tanto blade*

Thats what I was thinking. I just got my Benchmite 2 in the mail so I think I will send it to Benchmade. Oh well.


----------



## Thertel

*Re: sharpening a tanto blade*

I sharpen my emerson CQC-7 all the time and heres how to do it.

First off use freehand sharpening as opposed to on of the system style ones, they in my experience always round over the tip. I use waterstones personally starting at 800 grit working up to 30000 grit using Shapton stones.

Do the short edge first until a wire edge forms and then make a quick pass on the back to remove the wire. then repeat with the long edge. 

If you maintain your blade well and dont chip it a lot, you can actually start at a 2000grit stone then go to the 6000, then 8000, then 12000. however if you are Obsessive Compulsive like me about sharp blades you a daily touch up with 3 or 4 strokes from the 8000 up series will really keep you cutting. 

Otherwise the LifeSharp program is great, though there is nothing greater than the pride of knowing your blade that you sharpened cuts open someones finger about once a month when they "test" the edge.

Thomas


----------



## chmsam

*Re: sharpening a tanto blade*

You can sharpen a tanto edge pretty much like any other edge. The trick is to keep a consistant angle. To determine this angle, ink up the edge with a marker, wait a few seconds, and then lightly run the edge over te stone.

You'll have it right when most of the ink is removed. Too high and only the ink on the tip goes. Too low and the ink at the back of the edge is the only part removed.

This will also work on a chisel ground (single bevel for the edge) blade.

Just work up a sharp edge and then remove the wire edge -- a thin, false edge rolls over and has to be removed. If not, the edge feels real sharp, but only for a very short time until the thin, false edge breaks off. To remove the wire edge, simply run the back side of the edge very lightly on the stone at a slightly higher angle.

My Benchmade tanto blades come up very, very sharp on either free hand stones or even on a Lansky system.

Sharpen them as sharp as they need to be and you're good to go. Personally, I rarely use waterstones above 1000 or 2000 grit since for the uses I put my knives wouldn't be worth it. IMO, polish the daylights out of an edge you need for slicing fine items (paper, fine detail carving, etc.), but back off if you need to cut rougher things (cardboard, rope, etc.). You'll need to sharpen and touch up less often and the edge (and the knife) will last longer.


----------



## Lee1959

*Re: sharpening a tanto blade*

Can't add much to what has been said but I will say that if you strop on a leather strop frequently, or use a bitchers steel you will need to actually sharpen less often. 

You can even use the back of a legal pad as a field expeident "strop". Draw the knife in the opposite direction you would sharpen it pulling it on across the cardboard or steel. This will help maintain that edge for longer periods.


----------



## CLHC

*Re: sharpening a tanto blade*

I sure am learning quite some bit here. Thanks for those tips!


----------



## Bradlee

*Re: sharpening a tanto blade*

Thanks for all the great advice!


----------



## Thertel

*Re: sharpening a tanto blade*

chmsam brings up a valid point, with regards to how high you take the sharpening on a blade, also with that in mind, grit mearurement between a waterstone and a diamond stone is inconsistent a lot of the time especially at the 1000+ range.

another alternative to stropping your blade is a chromium impregnated rubber stone that is used like a strop.


----------



## 2000xlt

*who has the razor edge sharpening system*

who has the razor edge sharpening system, how do you like it, is it fool proof? opinions and comments on this pros and cons?

Thanks, i just got the brosure "sp" in the mail and considering it


----------



## Sigman

*Re: who has the razor edge sharpening system*

Merged threads - we've talked a lot about knife sharpening systems around these halls in the past. One really should take the time to dabble with the search function to see what's been said already (though not perfect - beats reposting what's already been posted).

I'm sure there's talk in the archives as well. 

The old Google *"searchstring" site:candlepowerforums.com* (without the quotes) trick works great as well.


----------



## 2000xlt

*Re: who has the razor edge sharpening system*

Ok thanks sigman

Buy the way i DID search, and saw this thread , but i was trying to entertain thoughts derived from people who have used this product, and perhaps others have used this or purchased it since i posted last


----------



## Rudi

*Re: who has the razor edge sharpening system*



2000xlt said:


> who has the razor edge sharpening system, how do you like it, is it fool proof? opinions and comments on this pros and cons?


I've used the Razor Edge system for over 20 years. It's a bit awkward to properly set the clamp/guide, but when properly done the result is a very sharp edge. With long blades, instead of sharpening part of the blade and then resetting the clamp, I use two clamps side by side. With this system my best kitchen knife, properly cared for, only needs resharpening about once a year, and just an occasional steeling in between.
The Edge Pro is also a very good product and a very good system.


----------



## Sigman

*Re: who has the razor edge sharpening system*



2000xlt said:


> ...but i was trying to entertain thoughts derived from people who have used this product...


Oops, I didn't realize it was a product name - I thought it was a generic system you were looking for that produced a razor edge! 

I can split your thread back out if you wish? Perhap if razor edge had been capitalized as in "Razor Edge" or if I was a little "more informed". Now I'll have to go look up "Razor Edge Sharpening System" and hope My Spyderco Sharpmaker fulfills my needs so I don't have to spend more $$$! 

(I'll tell my wife it's your fault!  )


----------



## 2000xlt

*Re: who has the razor edge sharpening system*

Hey sigman!! so did you buy the RAZOR EDGE SYSTEM??


----------



## Sigman

*Re: who has the razor edge sharpening system*

No don't have one...Right now - we're cleaning, smoking, & canning red salmon - while I'm also hanging in here moderating and haven't had a chance to look it up on the WWW yet.


----------



## 2000xlt

*Re: who has the razor edge sharpening system*

Sounds good now i dont mean to hijack my own thread well kind of, i have never had salmon but i did have smoked blackfish once that WAS good


----------



## afultz075

*Sharpening the Cutting hook on my Charge XTI*

I'm just wondering what method one would use to shapren the cutting hook that's on the top of a Charge XTI's serrated blade? I'm thinking a file would work, however, my needle file set is pretty course, and I'd think a finer file would work better.
-Andrew


----------



## Morelite

*Re: Sharpening the Cutting hook on my Charge XTI*

Hello Andrew, I'm right over the mountain from you. 

I have used a chain saw sharpening file on mine. It worked but I think there has to be a better way.


----------



## afultz075

*Re: Sharpening the Cutting hook on my Charge XTI*

Actually, now that I remember, I was checking out the new knives on Leatherman's site the other day and I remember one of them came with a diamond sharpening stick. I just wonder if it would be thin enough to get in there to sharpen the cutting hook. Unfortunately I don't know if they can be ordered separately.

Morelite: Aren't the mountains that separate us and all the state parks within just wonderful for playing with flashlights at night?


----------



## ACMarina

*Re: Sharpening the Cutting hook on my Charge XTI*

There are diamond sharpeners for serrated blades as well; that's what I use. It's kinda cone-shaped and it lets you get in there and sharpen the hook pretty well..


----------



## PolishSumgai

*Re: Sharpening the Cutting hook on my Charge XTI*



afultz075 said:


> I'm just wondering what method one would use to shapren the cutting hook that's on the top of a Charge XTI's serrated blade? I'm thinking a file would work, however, my needle file set is pretty course, and I'd think a finer file would work better.
> -Andrew



Get a Spyderco Triangle Sharpmaker $39 +/- on eBay. This set will sharpen anything , easy to use, you can't screw up the edge and you can take it anywhere.


----------



## [email protected]

*Re: Sharpening the Cutting hook on my Charge XTI*

Or the cheap way: A thin wooden stick with your choice of emerald cloth.


----------



## cdf

*Re: Sharpening the Cutting hook on my Charge XTI*

Leather boot lace loaded with jewlers rouge .

Chris


----------



## afultz075

*How are these sharpeners?*

Found an old sharpener in my drawer. It's older but appears to be in great shape. I'm thinking of putting this one in my car for sharpening when out and about if I need. I'm just wondering if these type of sharpeners are any good? I won't use it if it's a piece of junk that will do more harm than good.


----------



## cy

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

that one may work, but I've never seen one simular that was not junk. 

also I don't like sharpeners that if you slip... could send you to the hospital!

sorry but if that was mine, I'd pitch it in the trash can :green:


----------



## xochi

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

For the most part, I agree with Cy. Although it may not be a good sharpener for knives you really like, for "abusers" or work knives that end up in situations like cutting mud encrusted rope or tape from iron (situations I frequently encounter) a sharpener like that can be very nice to have around.


----------



## Anglepoise

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

The sharpener shown in the photo uses a 'carbide' groove and as carbide is harder than your knife blade , metal is removed. However it is scraped off and will damage a good blade. Just keep it away from your good folders. For old work knives,.... probably be fine.


----------



## afultz075

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

Glad I haven't used it on any good knives. Time for a sharpmaker.

Are there any good pcoket sharpeners kind of like the one in the photo that are any good?


----------



## mahoney

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

It will put a somewhat adequate edge on knives made from fairly soft steel. Cheap stainless steel paring knives for example. Oddly enough Aeromedix packages the S30V Ritter Griptillian with a similar sharpener. So YMMV when using it on a knife made of high quality steel. I'd at least give it a try as a test on a knife that was dull anyway, if it didn't work well, you wouldn't be much worse off.


----------



## Unicorn

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

I have this thing about actually scraping the edge as a means of sharpening. You'd get better results with a small diamond stone or rod. DMT makes some pretty compact sharpeners, some double side, that have folding handles. Smaller than the pictured "sharpener."


----------



## Sigman

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

I've got one of those, yes it shaves metal off of the blade. I keep it around to put a quick edge on an old camp knife. Wouldn't touch a good blade with it!


----------



## Planterz

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

Complete and utter junk that shouldn't be used on anything more valuable than a Chinese made kitchen knife you bought for $5 at Target. Same for the ones with ceramic rods in an *X*. The problem is that instead of sharpening each side, you're wedging the blade between 2 slabs of whatever, which hogs away way too much metal and will never sharpen beyond a certain point. Imagine a blade that has an actual thin, sharp edge. Now wedge it between 2 things that cross each other. The edge will be deformed in one direction, than immediately deformed in the other direction. Combine this with the fact that people think "harder is faster", and there's few ways to ruin sharp edge faster than using a sharpener like that short of trying to carve a cinderblock.

Get a Spyderco Sharpmaker 204, watch the DVD, and practice first on a couple cheap knives. You'll have bare arms in no time.


----------



## iamerror

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

I have never tried a sharpener like that... but I second the recommendation for the Sharpmaker, which has worked great for me.


----------



## Steve Andrews

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*



Planterz said:


> Get a Spyderco Sharpmaker 204, watch the DVD, and practice first on a couple cheap knives. You'll have bare arms in no time.


 :rock: 

I bought my Sharpmaker years ago and I haven't had hair on my left forearm since.


----------



## js

*Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Hi everyone,

Please don't tell me to do a search. I've done them, and read three or four relevant threads, including drizzle's (??? sp ???) nice review thread of the Apex.

My brain hurts. I need some direct, relevant help.

Here's the deal--here are a couple things I don't care about in my decision making process:

Cost no object. For the purposes of this thread, I don't care about how much I spend on a knife sharpening system, as long as it is under $200.

Fixed angles or infinitely variable doesn't matter. I don't consider the Sharpmaker to be inferior to the Apex simply because the SM can only do 15 and 20 degree angles.

However, here are some things I DO care about:

Convenience. I want the system to be easy to use and setup and store so that I am inclined to sharpen my knives more frequently.

Edge quality. I definitely want the system to put a really good edge on the knife. And what worries me about the SM is that it is said to round the tips of knives. Is this unavoidable? And exactly how does it "round the tips"? And can this be avoided with a different technique?

Edge coarseness/fineness. Despite what some may say, I have found that in many cases, you do NOT want a super _fine_ edge on a knife. I like my kitchen knives to have a very well done _coarse_ edge to them. i.e. I only use my 800 grit waterstone or coarse grade DMT stone to sharpen them. This makes cutting through tomatos very easy. So with that in mind, I'm guessing that I would need to get the diamond stones for the SM, right? But, what about the Apex? Will the coarsest waterstone be coarse enough? Because, as it is, I find my 800 grit waterstone to be way less preferable to my DMT for creating my favorite edge for the kitchen knives.

Versatility. I want the sharpener to be useful for a great many sharpening tasks, and not just a handful: long knives, short knives, plain edge, serrated edge, scissors, etc. I'd like to be able to handle them all, although I am mostly interested in being able to sharpen 2" to 8" plain and serrated knives, with scissors being the next highest priority. I use my waterstone and a jig to sharpen chisels and other woodworking tools, so that's a non-issue.

Longevity. I don't want to find that I've dished out my Apex water stones after only a dozen sharpenings and have to tediously flatten them (if it IS tedious to do this--I don't know). I want this sharpener to LAST A LONG TIME.

Portability. I want to be able to easily cart this around with me for trips and outings.

No stray marks! I don't want to scratch up the blade or handle as a natural consequence of sharpening my knives.

***

OK. So as you can see, my criteria seem to me to favor the Spyderco Sharpmaker system with additional diamond rods, right?

Or what do people think? And I'd especially like to know about the tip-rounding phenomenon of the SM? How big a deal is this? What's the deal?

Thanks in advance for any help you'all can give me.


----------



## VWTim

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Having only experience with knifes that were sharpened by others with the Apex I can't help much. But it did put a scary/nice edge on one of my old Spyderco's. I PM'd the friend in question to see if they can post their experiences with the Apex system.


----------



## Rudi

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

The tip rounding problem with the SM results from the unintended increased pressure when the tip slides off the sharpening rod. It can be avoided by ending your stroke AT the tip instead of PAST the tip. 

The blade-scratching problem with the EdgePro can be avoided by protecting the sides of the blade (with tape, for instance), or alternatively by frequently wiping the blade and the EdgePro's tool rest surface.


----------



## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Thanks, Rudi. That's helpful. How hard is it to get into the habit of ending your stroke AT the tip instead of PAST the tip? Or couldn't you START at the tip and push inwards and down? Does that work?


----------



## Rudi

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

To avoid the pressure that causes the roundingat the tip requires concentrating on it at every stroke, until it (may or may not) becomes automatic. No reason you couldn't start at the tip with a push stroke, but that makes it harder to maintain a constant angle.


----------



## kitelights

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

I can't see a push stroke - just isn't natural, but I've been using the Sharpmaker for a couple of years with no signs of rounded tips. Maybe it's b/c I usually end up on the flat edge of the stone with a downward stroke at the end.

My main comment is about the diamond stones. My perception is that the diamond sticks are most beneficial when you have to remove a lot of steel like when reprofiling the edge. If you simply want a coarse edge, then I think the standard sticks will do just fine - just use the 1st step and not the next 3 steps. 

If money is no object, then get the diamonds. Better to have them even if you only use them occasionally, then to need them and not have them at all. It's not fun reprofiling with standard sticks. 

That said, most of the specifics that you listed are met by the Sharpmaker. You sound like a heavy user, so the standard sticks won't last you forever, but you won't wear them out quickly either. I think most of us are mainly light to moderate users and will probably get a lifetime of use out of one set.


----------



## Josey

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Jim: The Sharpmaker is much easier to use. The EdgePro takes some setup and can be messy if you don't have a good spot.

However, the SM is limited to two angles: a 30-degree back bevel and a 40-degree edge. It's worthless for anything else, and some of the better steels (VG10, S30V, ZDP, D2 if you like a toothy edge, etc.) like and can take a more acute edge. Other knives for heavier duty need a less acute edge. You might want a more acute edge on your kitchen knives. And the SM is difficult to reprofile edges, which is sometimes necessary.

The EdgePro is way more versatile, lots of edges and lots of stones and easy to use on all types of knives. However, it works best with flat grinds. Knives with severe sabre hollow grinds, especially large knives, are not easy to use.

The best system is to use the EP for major resharpenings and to profile your blades to 30-degree edges (or 30-degree edges with a final 40-degree edge). The SM is great to keep the blade sharp after every use. 

But with either system, the key is to develop an even burr and gradually and gently sharpen it away. And you need a magic marker to make sure you're actually sharpening the edge.

If you want, I can loan you either or both systems to try. Just send them back when you're done.

Josey


----------



## Grubbster

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

The sharpmaker is actually a pretty versitile system. It is not limited to 15 and 20 degree angles. By simple experementation you can put thing under the base to change the angle. Diamond rods are also available to reprofile edges with a very agressive edge.


----------



## Josey

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*



Grubbster said:


> By simple experementation you can put thing under the base to change the angle.




OK, that's fair, but you can do the same thing with free stones, too. The EdgePro has many, many different stones and polishing tapes. I do like and use the SM, but the EdgePro gives you a far more precise angle because everything is locked into place. The SM requires you to hold the blade vertical. If you watch when you do it, the blade actually wobbles unless you are very practiced and very careful. Maintaining an edge is pretty easy with the SM, which is why I like it. But I've found that major resharpening and reprofiling is much easier and more accurate with the EdgePro.

I guess what I'm saying is to get both. Where have you heard that before?


----------



## Anglepoise

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

I own both. From your post the Sharpmaker 204 will be just what the doctor ordered. Perfect for you and your needs.


----------



## cernobila

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*



Josey said:


> OK, that's fair, but you can do the same thing with free stones, too. The EdgePro has many, many different stones and polishing tapes. I do like and use the SM, but the EdgePro gives you a far more precise angle because everything is locked into place. The SM requires you to hold the blade vertical. If you watch when you do it, the blade actually wobbles unless you are very practiced and very careful. Maintaining an edge is pretty easy with the SM, which is why I like it. But I've found that major resharpening and reprofiling is much easier and more accurate with the EdgePro.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is to get both. Where have you heard that before?




Funny that.......took the words right out of my gob...... I also use both, not the answer you are looking for, right?


----------



## greenlight

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

What do you do with the Magic marker?


----------



## Josey

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*



greenlight said:


> What do you do with the Magic marker?




Paint the blade edge bevel with the magic marker and then make a dry pass with your stone. If the angle of your stone is too wide, none of the marker will be scraped away. If the angle is too narrow, you'll scrape away the marker at the top of the back bevel, but not along the edge of the blade. You want the stone to be parallel with the edge bevel, meaning it scrapes away all the marker.

Once the stone angle is correct, you can sharpen until you raise a burr on the opposite side of the edge, then keep sharpening the burr away, moving your stone from one side to the other, with ever more gentle strokes until the burr is gone. Then your knife will be sharp. You can polish the blade after that or strop it for extra sharpness. But it all starts with the correct angle.


----------



## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Thanks everyone for the information!

It was very helpful. I think for now I will go for the spyderco sharpmaker with diamond rods, and then later get the edgepro.

Josey,

Thank you SO much for offering to lend me either system. I may check back with you in 2007 about the edgepro, but for now I'm good. I actually got to see LEDmodMan's spyderco sharpmaker when he visited me a couple years ago, so I know what that's like firsthand. And, come to think of it, he never mentioned the "tip rounding" effect.

Anyway, thanks again everyone.


----------



## Jvalera

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Get em both. At first I had the 204, perfect for my utility blades but then

for the pricey stuff its the EdgePro. Man I hate curvy blades...lol


----------



## Bob_G

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Stop screwing around and get the EdgePro. Actually get both, which you seem to be saying. They're not comparable, except that you can sharpen a knife with both.

The EP is a system that can do most anything a reasonable person might want to do. The SM is great for touch-ups, but a pain for rebeveling new or worn knives. You can integrate the two, using only 15 or 20 degrees for your secondary on the EP, then you're set for touching up with the SM (I touch-up by eye with a ceramic rod.)

The course stone of the EP is for rebeveling basically, the 220 is what you sound like you'd use for a goto stone. I use up to the 320 for kitchen, and 600 for folders with good steel. I strop everything with either 3 or .5 micron diamond on leather. 

The 320 and 600 should almost never need flattening, the 120 needs it a lot, but it's easy, just takes a couple minutes and I kind of enjoy it (just throw some sand on a cinder block.)

If I used them enough to be totally familiar, muscle memory wise, I bet there wouldn't be much difference in setup time if you discount the water with the EP. The EP is a lot easier to setup than people think, and you still have to fussy around with the SM if it's put up in it's case. I use the EP in the kitchen in a large Pyrex dish, no problem, no mess.

If you haven't already got it, I wouldn't waste money on the diamond sticks for the SM until you try it with the default ones. The diamond are basically for rebeveling, and that's masochistic with the SM. But really, if I know you like I think I do, you want the EdgePro.

Oh, the trick with the SM not to round the tip is to rotate your wrist forward and down as the tip nears the stick. In other words, you start with the blade basically parallel to the ground and end with it almost perpendicular. Tips are a pain for all but the true masters I think (well, that's what I tell myself.)


----------



## Owen

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

I agree with everything Bob G said, so no point reiterating it. 
I use the EdgePro for reprofiling and back bevels, the Sharpmaker for touch-ups. They're a great combination.
I typically use the EdgePro to produce a final edge or microbevel that is a bit lower in angle than one of the Sharpmaker settings, which makes realigning or touching up with the Sharpmaker a breeze.

IMO, rounding tips with the Sharpmaker comes from sharpening in a hurry using the corners of the stones. I rarely use the flats of the white stones, just finish with the corners, and have rounded a tip or four in my time
It's just as easy to screw up the tip with the EdgePro if you forget that the edge should be perpendicular to the stone, and don't reposition the blade accordingly.


----------



## jtice

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

I have the Sharpmaker, the Lansky Pro, and the EZE.

I have to say, that the Sharpmaker is my favorite.

Convenience and portability are going to make you lean toward the Sharpmaker.
Its super super easy to use, and seems to put a very sharp edge on my knives alot faster than any other sharpener.

I almost exclusively use the edges of the stones, not the flats.

Its not the best choice for re-profiling though.
But, even after using the EZE, I noticed if I make a couple swipes on the Sharpmaker, its Really sharp after that.

I need to pickup a new one, my stones are getting a bit warn,
but I have used it alot, even to sharpen machetes.

~John


----------



## Luna

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

JS, a sharpmaker and a cheapo harborfreight 1x belt sander is a great combo. The Sharpmaker (especially with the ultrafine stones ) will get as sharp as you could ever want. The belt sander is the best way to profile the edge, and do so quickly.

The cool think about the sharpmaker over the other 'gadgets' is that you don't have to feel like you are planning a vacation just to get setup to sharpen a blade. 

I also like cardboard wheels but you have to practice. It is the fastest way to get a sharp edge. You still want use a belt sander for profiling


----------



## ghostrider

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Lots of good replies here. I don't know about the Apex, but I do own the Lansky, and the SM. I use the Sharpmaker almost exclusively. It's easy to set up and take down, portable enough to fit in my daypack, and gets my knives hair poppin sharp. There's no need to get the diamond rods until you've tried the two grits that come with it. Then, you may or may not decide you need the diamond. I do use mine on occasion, but it depends on the knife, steel, etc... When you watch the video that comes with the Sharpmaker, you'll discover that the SM was designed to sharpen a multitude of tools other than knives and scissors (I even touched up my cigar poker on it  ). 



Like others have said, the Apex would be good for reprofiling the blade, and more acute angles. The Sharpmaker is convenient and works well for keeping the knife sharp.


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

I don't own the SM or the Apex, but I have a very extensive Lansky set, a CrockStik, and ceramic v-hone set. I have had a knife or two sharpened on the Apex and it does a really great job. The cost of the complete set has kept me from going for it though.

One thing that popped up here a few times was reprofiling an edge. I do that quite a few times. If you use your knives a lot, you'll end up eventually finding that the edges just don't hold up as long as they used to. The SM won't quite do that from what I've seen of it in use. Looks great for a quick touch up, but not quite as good for the heavier stuff.

So for myself, in a nutshell, for a quick touch in between using a steel, the SharpMaker looks good, and as easy to use than the ceramics I use now. For heavier stuff, I will keep using the Lansky until I can justify getting the ApexPro -- scissors are a whole 'nother thing to sharpen and a good friend is a hairdresser so that rig would get used a lot.

Another issue to consider is that if you are sharpening kitchen knives, you really should avoid honing oils with petroleum in them for health reasons. On clean stones food grade mineral oil would work, or use ceramics with no oils, or water stones.

Lots of information, tips, and good old know how shown in this thread. Some things here I have been trying to beat into the heads of a few people for over 25 years. Cool!


----------



## Jvalera

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

Just learn how to sharpen using stones. it took me 30 years. lol


----------



## jtice

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

arrrrrg :duck: i hate those things.
Damn near cut my thumb off once with one.

They dont put nice edges on a knife, rather grude edge.

Yes, buy a Spyderco Sharpmaker, and be done.
Super easy to use, gets knives super sharp !
The older style can be found for barely over $20
New style is about $45 to 50

~John


----------



## LawLight

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

Anyone have anything, good or bad, to say about the CRKT Slide Sharp?

Law


----------



## Mike Painter

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*



Jvalera said:


> Just learn how to sharpen using stones. it took me 30 years. lol


Seconded.
And I've found gadgets similar to the one pictured to give a very sharp edge. *ALL* sharpening devices remove metal.

I once had a student who made knives. You could not touch the edge with your thumb and not cut yourself.
When asked what kind of stone he used, he responded that he never used files to sharpen his blades.
He used jewelers rouge on a buffing wheel.


----------



## GarageBoy

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

Don't use those things... you'll peel the edges off your knives
Go with the stone route or the sandpaper belt, finished with buffing wheel =D


----------



## Trashman

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

I need one of those for work (Conroy's Flowers). The big chopper we used to cut flowers needs a good sharpening, and it's got a bunch of dips and chips in the blade. I think I could use one of those to remove enough metal that it'd eventually be even again. Sound like a possibility?

Anybody know anything about those sharpeners endorsed by Rachel Ray? http://cgi.ebay.com/FURI-OZITECH-Di...QQihZ013QQcategoryZ116005QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## Luna

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*



ghostrider said:


> Like others have said, the Apex would be good for reprofiling the blade, and more acute angles. The Sharpmaker is convenient and works well for keeping the knife sharp.




The price of the Apex for just reprofiling just isn't worth it when you can spend 35$ on the HF beltsander and reprofile a blade in just a minute.


----------



## GarageBoy

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

They wont remove chips, by the time you get that far down, the edge will be too thick.


----------



## Trashman

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*



GarageBoy said:


> They wont remove chips, by the time you get that far down, the edge will be too thick.




Hmm...I'll have to check. I don't know if you know what type of blade the flower chopper has, but I think it's like 5 or 6 inches wide (something like a reverse guillotine). Maybe, it can be sharpened down a little lower? You maybe be right, but I still want to try!


----------



## kitelights

*Re: How are these sharpeners?*

If the blade has chips in it, my experience shows that it makes it worse, not better.


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Using a grinder is certainly an option but only if you know how to use one. Not everyone takes shop classes these days. In untrained hands they can be quite dangerous. Learn how to use one and wear safety gear and a leather apron. A "wreck" is very painful.


----------



## afultz075

*Sharpmaker question*

I just got my sharpmaker in the mail today and boy do I love it. I'm just wondering, if i'm looking to do a very quick touchup on a knife, is it necessary to do all twenty strokes on both edges of both stones (coarse/fine), or will just using the fine stone using my best judgement on number of strokes be alright?


----------



## Grox

*Re: Sharpmaker question*

Using your judgement is fine. The key is to make sure the bevel is set before hand.

In fact, once you've set the bevel, following the instructions may not be necessary. You may only need a few swipes on the whites to bring your knife back to sharp.


----------



## ghostrider

*Re: Sharpmaker question*

It can't be stressed enough to watch the video/DVD. Everything you need to go on is in that and the booklet, including your question. Many people will watch the video again and again on occasion because there is so much information in it. 

A good way to check is to drag the edge accross you fingernail. If the edge grabs you finger nail then you can move onto step 2. I often times won't go past the gray flats just because I don't always need a polished edge. Sometimes even the gray corners are good enough.


----------



## Josey

*Re: Sharpmaker question*

The 20 strokes approach is wrong because it may be too much sharpening or not enough. 

Step 1: Make sure the angle of the stone matches the angle of the blade's edge. Paint the edge with a magic marker and make a dry pass with the stone. The marker should be scrapped off the entire edge if the angle of the stone matches the angle of your edge. If it doesn't, you need to either reprofile the edge or use an different sharpening system.

Step 2: Sharpen until you raise a burr ( a fine wire edge that is bent toward the opposite side of the edge that you are sharpenng). If you don't raise a burr with the first 5 strokes, start switching sides with your sharpening until you do raise a burr. You can feel the burr by lightly scraping the edge perpendicular to your finger tips. (Obviously, do this carefully, moving your fingertips so they don't dig into the edge, but pass away from the edge.)

Step 3: Remove the burr by pushing it from one side to the other with ever more gentle strokes until it is gone. If you leave the burr, you will have a wire edge that will quickly break off under use and leave you with a dull knife again.


Then, as rule, resharpen the edge after every major use. You'll just need the fine stone and only a few strokes, but you still have to watch the burr.

Josey


----------



## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Luna,

How would you keep a nice constant angle on the bevel, and also how would you avoid removing too much metal?

I've had rather too much experience with the dangers of using a belt sander as a sharpener. During my apprenticeship to be a piano tuner/rebuilder, my master didn't have any other sharpening device, not even a stone, and I've got to tell you that I was never even remotely happy with the results on any of our tools, especially the wood chisels. I acquired and cared for my own tools as fast as my wallet would allow for.

When I became a journeyman and worked in a shop here in Ithaca NY, we had a great many more sharpening devices, including a nice set of stones and a jig for holding a constant angle on a chisel. But my boss would often "touch up" a chisel on the belt sander. And it was always a bad job.

Perhaps a finer grit belt, or a different technique would have made the difference. I don't know.

But I would love to hear you elaborate and defend the use of a belt sander for reprofiling. My gut response is more or less: ARE YOU CRAZY? No freakin way.

Although, I HAVE had good luck using a belt sander for sharpening (not reprofiling) kitchen knives, but even there, I still perfer using a stone of some sort--it does a better job, just takes a bit longer.

Anyway, looking forward to hearing your detailed explanation.


----------



## Luna

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*



js said:


> Luna,
> 
> How would you keep a nice constant angle on the bevel, and also how would you avoid removing too much metal?



It isn't difficult and the choice of most knife makers I know. Being flat and horizontal, we can just establish the angle just like on stones. Since it is a simple motion, you only need to control the speed you pull across the belt.

All you use the belt grinder for the backbevel anyhow(under the pretense of this particular discussion). As long as the angle is less than the final angle, it makes no difference. Just develop a burr and the sharpmaker would be used for the final hone

For 35 dollars, you can get some old kitchen knives to practice on. After a few, you will become proficient and wonder why a fellow would spend 30min-hour doing a backbevel manually when it is just mere seconds on a belt. More info can be found on the knife/knife making forums around.

PS it also give you the option of a convex edge, try that with stones.


----------



## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Luna,

That was a very non-helpful post. Maintaining a constant angle with a stone is easily done with the finger as guide, or even with an actual little plastic angle guide.

That can't be done on a *MOVING* belt right? So how do you do it? By eye?

And I've spent a bit of time on BF and KF and I can't say that many people there use a belt sander for sharpening. A knife maker would necessarily need a good belt sander/grinder. Yes. But for somewhat different reasons, right? I mean, they NEED to remove a lot of metal after the tempering stage. "If you would make a blade that will win, forge thick and grind thin" as they say.

But look. I really, really (no---really) don't want this thread to degenerate into another js vs. Luna trainwreck, OK? So if you don't have any detailed practical instructions or links thereto, then I will just let you have your last word and not respond. Whatever. If a belt sander does it for you, great. At the moment, it's not my choice. But, I'm certainly willing to learn if someone is willing to teach.


----------



## Grox

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Jim,

Have a look at Mark Terrell's tutorial on belt sharpening: http://www.mtknives.com/beltsharpening.html

He doesn't use a guide.

I've seen a tutorial somewhere with guidance on how to mantain angles but I can't seem to find them at the moment. Maybe it was Chris Reeve? I can't remember. 

Mr. Terrell's guide ought to be a start at least.


----------



## Luna

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*



js said:


> Luna,
> 
> That was a very non-helpful post.
> ...cut
> But look. I really, really (no---really) don't want this thread to degenerate into another js vs. Luna trainwreck, OK? So if you don't have any detailed practical instructions or links thereto, then I will just let you have your last word and not respond. Whatever. If a belt sander does it for you, great. At the moment, it's not my choice. But, I'm certainly willing to learn if someone is willing to teach.



Now why in the world would my post elicit a response like this? 

Just for my sanity, yes belt sanding is used for final sharpening, after HT. 

Out of the first 10 posts I just looked at at bladeforums, 2 of them mentioned beltsanders for sharpening.


----------



## Luna

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*



Grox said:


> I've seen a tutorial somewhere with guidance on how to mantain angles but I can't seem to find them at the moment.



For a novice, I find cutting the backbevel with bs and finishing with a sharpmaker about the easiest task. Why the BS? Because the SM is not aggressive enough to quickly cut the bevel so the majority of newbs will be accomplishing nothing when they think they are sharpening.


----------



## thk

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

I'm extremely happy with my Edge Pro Apex. My friends too since I occasionally will reprofile their knives for them. Usually only use it when I really need it. Then I just touch up occasionally on a Sharpmaker.


----------



## Josey

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*



Luna said:


> Because the SM is not aggressive enough to quickly cut the bevel so the majority of newbs will be accomplishing nothing when they think they are sharpening.



The knowledge of how to sharpen is more important than the machine used to sharpen.


----------



## Luna

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*



Josey said:


> The knowledge of how to sharpen is more important than the machine used to sharpen.




Absolutely! However, most people won't fathom the idea of spending hours perfecting a blade freehand as some of use do (god knows how many weeks I've spent sharpening knives).


----------



## mcmc

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Do any of you folks use a sharpening steel (made for kitchen knives) on any of your folders?

I am still not sure why you use a downward slicing stroke on the sharpening steel, if you are just re-aligning the blade edge - wouldn't it make more sense to pull up (motion from spine to edge)?

I am a total knife newbie, but am trying to figure out the best way to keep my knives sharp w/o losing a lot of metal (not even sure if this is a real issue!) =) I have a sharpmaker, an RSK, a mini-grip, and a Buck 119...am thinking about getting a strop too, but not sure where to get a decent + affordable one (nor how to get he boron silicate or i forget what people use on the strop).

thanks!


----------



## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*



Grox said:


> Jim,
> 
> Have a look at Mark Terrell's tutorial on belt sharpening: http://www.mtknives.com/beltsharpening.html
> 
> He doesn't use a guide.
> 
> I've seen a tutorial somewhere with guidance on how to mantain angles but I can't seem to find them at the moment. Maybe it was Chris Reeve? I can't remember.
> 
> Mr. Terrell's guide ought to be a start at least.



Excellent. Thanks for the link. Yes. I just looked it over quickly and it looks as if it will be helpful. I certainly would like to be able to be proficient at using a belt sander as a sharpener


----------



## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*



Luna said:


> Now why in the world would my post elicit a response like this?
> 
> Just for my sanity, yes belt sanding is used for final sharpening, after HT.
> 
> Out of the first 10 posts I just looked at at bladeforums, 2 of them mentioned beltsanders for sharpening.



I don't know, Luna. Something about our writing styles seems to get in the way of cordial back and forth posting.

Sorry if I read the tone of your posts wrong. The main thing is that I wanted something like the link Grox posted. Something to give me a step by step approach to using a belt sander to sharpen knives.

Re-reading the posts now, my response does seem to be a little off kilter. I'll use the fact that I've just switched over to the graveyard shift as an excuse.

But, in any case, the BS suggestion really doesn't tally with my first post at all. It takes up a lot of space and is thus neither convenient, nor portable--two of the criteria I listed in the first post of this thread.

Although, you are correct: if the only reason to get an Apex EP were for its ability to re-profile, it wouldn't make sense when a $35 BS would do the trick. But, here again, I really have no place to set up, store, and use a BS at my apartment. Not a good place, anyway. So even just for the occasional re-profiling job, it would be a pain.

And, that's also why I would get the diamond sticks with the SM--they are agressive and make re-profiling easier. Or so I've been told by LEDmodMan.

Anyway, sorry for being pissy with you.


----------



## Luna

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*



js said:


> And, that's also why I would get the diamond sticks with the SM--they are agressive and make re-profiling easier. Or so I've been told by LEDmodMan.




The diamond sticks aren't cheap ($60-$80) and they still take a while to reprofile and longevity isn't the greatest with diamond 'stones' (the grit tears from the substrate). You also have to be very careful to not round the tip. The cheaper all SM reprofiling route is to wrap 80 grit paper on the stones. Still too cumbersome.

I've gone thru most of the gadgets and the Apex/Pro is at the top of the list but you have to deal with setup and all the other hassle plus the stones have to be flattened, etc.




So if you take good care of your tools, then you won't have to reprofile often and the SM is great. If you have a wife then you will have to reprofile often regardless of the constant badgering you give her to leave the good knives alone  In this case you will realize that the best solution is the fastest without compromising the edge. 
Since reprofiling doesn't require a perfectly consistant angle (just as long as it is less than the final angle and a burr/point is produced) you can reprofile without jigs and not pay a penalty. However you would be amazed at how perfect an angle you can hold a knife on a beltsander especially when using a grit that is coarse enought to only require a single swipe to bring the edge back into condition for sharpmaker use. Using this technique (belt +SM+UF or strop or even belt + paperwheels) will give you an edge that can top hairs but seldom is that type of edge optimal for use (push cutting only). 



I recommend trying a little belt sander plus it has many other uses.


----------



## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Thanks, Luna! I apreciate the suggestions. And yes, I do have a wife. And she has a mother and sister. And they have the habit of leaving my good knives POINT DOWN in the steel silverware drainer basket! LOL! They did that one time JUST after I had sharpened them, and put a noticeable dent in the edge. Crazy.


----------



## glockboy

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

JS
Try this http://www.texasknife.com/store/s-pages/TKS_MainframeStore.htm
I used this for all the knives, you can re edge any knives.
It's not cheap but worth it,tools and knives.


----------



## Luna

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*



glockboy said:


> JS
> Try this http://www.texasknife.com/store/s-pages/TKS_MainframeStore.htm
> I used this for all the knives, you can re edge any knives.
> It's not cheap but worth it,tools and kinves.




Bad link, which was it.


----------



## glockboy

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

click
http://www.texasknife.com/store/s-pages/TKS_MainframeStore.htm
and click on
Belt Sanding Equipment


----------



## Wolfen

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Check out this link. the Hsarpmaker and Edgepro as well as other methods are discussed.

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=26036


----------



## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Wolfen,

NICE LINK! Thank you so much! Great stuff and good discussions of the Apex and Spyderco. Just the link I had in mind.


----------



## PolishSumgai

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

1. Buy this book: Sharpening Made Easy 

2. Buy a Spyderco Sharpmaker - don't need any extra rods/sticks.

3. Paper Sharpening Wheels 


I have been sharpening knives for 50+ years and the 3 listed items will be all you need to sharpen just about everything you own.


----------



## liteMANIAC

*Water Stone for sharpening knives*

Hi all,

I go to culinary school and have a bunch of knives. However they seem dull. I tried those pull through sharpeners but they dont seem to be doing a good job. I am considering getting sharpening stones but dont know anyting about them and where to begin. I went to my local store and they were sellign for 130$!! What should I be looking for? Size, grit, water or oil stone and where to get one? Thanks for any advice. 

Patrick


----------



## highorder

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

unless you have the time and inclination to take up the art of micromachining (sharpening) I reccomend using a sharpening service for kitcken blades. around here, I can get all 3 of my kitchen knives done for $20.00 whilst I wait.

otherwise, I have several natural and synthetic stones, as well as DMT diamond hones that work wonders!

http://www.dmtsharp.com/

http://www.ind.nortonabrasives.com/Lineart/ShowLineArt.asp?catID=175


----------



## carrot

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

Water stones really are expensive, especially genuine ones. Synthetic ones should be cheaper. You're probably better off asking in Bladeforums what to do...

There's also this tutorial that explains a lot of sharpening technique and what to use... http://users.ameritech.net/knives/ward.htm


----------



## karlthev

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

Hmmmm...won't one of your professors--chefs--teachers show you how? I cook quite a bit---all of the cooking in my home for the past 30 years and, have become decent with a knife--use and sharpening. It's not so tricky as you may have heard but again--culinary school? Ask your experts, they're right in front of you!


Karl


----------



## cdosrun

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

I'm sure some others here wouldn't be too impressed, but I have one of the Global 5000 grit ceramic stones and it puts a lovely edge on my knives. The Shapton Stones professional series look very similar, and would probably a good bet.

I have 1000 grit and 5000 grit stones and would recommend the combination for keeping knives sharp. If you need to reshape them, a lower grit (coarser) stone might be helpful. Carrot has (helpfully as ever) given you a link to a very good instructional site, and I would concur that there are a lot of helpful people at bladeforums. If you learn the technique of using stones, it will probably be helpful throughout life (I know I have been sharpening knives for friends ever since I was old enough to hold one).

Andrew


----------



## mspeterson

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

You want the kind of stones used in this:

http://www.accuratesharp.com/detail.aspx?ID=296

It is not expensive, not when you consider that this is a complete kit w/ instructions and a video. Once you master its use, offer your own sharpening service to your fellow students. Then it will pay you!!!


----------



## GarageBoy

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

If you wanna make your life easy, get a DMT coarse ($20 from knifecenter.com) to thin down your edges and grab a sharpmaker from Spyderco. (around $40 f)

If you wanna learn freehand sharpening, a Norton India is fine (get it in medium/fine)

As you advance, you'll see what you like. 

A coarser grit leaves a better edge for slicing (though Norton india Fine, is still rather coarse)
A fine edge will push cut, read; shave better


----------



## carbine15

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

Use a sharpening service. Around here they are common in butcher shops. They charge me $0.20 / inch. I sharpened my katanas with their service. Some knife sharpening services go door to door and work out of trucks. A good blade should only need sharpening maybe twice a year unless you chip it and need a new edge. Using the steel before cutting is very important to hone the blade back to true.


----------



## RA40

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

I've wondered about using the steel. My thinking is this is fine for that wire edge and steels where the hardness may be softer so the edge will curl over. That said, I've used the steel to adjust some edges but generally, I don't find it performs well for my uses. A leather strop with a mild compound has been my choice lately. ??

As for the OP, your instructor should be able to give you a few tips to get you on the way. Then it is just practise.


----------



## HiKing808

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

no offence to anyone who gave their advice, but b4 you go out and spend any money on these expensive sharpeners, i'd go talk to your teachers. i work in a resturant and all the cooks and chefs sharpen their knives almost everyday, so i hope you don't think that you will go any amount of time in your profession without sharpening your knives. 

all they use is those regular sharpening rod looking things, don't know exactly what they're called but im sure you know them if your in cullinary school.

i think you can find them for like 10 dollars or something that might be all you need
if it's only for you cooking knives, don't know if they work as well with other types of blades.


----------



## twentysixtwo

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

If you're in culinary school you'll definitely want to ask your instructors.

My guess is they'll recommend some steels and some sort of water stone. You really should (almost) never stone your knives. I'd recommend an oval diamond steel. I haven't had to stone my knives in about 7 years. 

before that I stoned my knives regularly and nearly ruined my 6" chefs knife (most frequently used one)


----------



## liteMANIAC

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

Wow thanks for all the advice. There is alot to think about. At the moment I am on my Christmas break and cannot ask my instructors. I brought my knives home and wanted to get them razor sharp for when I return. I do have a steel and use it regularly, but the knives arn't performing as they once did. What I am leaning towards is to buy a combination stone 1000/4000 grit at Lee Valley for $34.50 and see how I like it.


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

Again, first and foremost, ask your instructors to show you how to sharpen and how to use a steel, or what sharpening service they use. Good knives that are well sharpened will hold an edge under restaurant use for up to six months if maintained and properly steeled. Learn how to use a steel and use it everytime before you use your knives.

Hones sharpen, steels reallign the edge. Learn what happens to the edge when you use your knives. Learn why you want to use as little effort/pressure with your knives. Good cutlery is expensive and the tools of your trade should last a lifetime if properly maintained. Your knives are going to be some of the most often used tools in your career. Learn everything you can about them -- care and maintenance, why there are different styles of knives, why there are different types of metals/ceramics for knives and the difference they make, etc.

Also, never use honing oil or any petroleum product with knives. Use only stones or a system that requires one of the following: no lube (ceramic or some diamond), water, or food grade mineral oil. Petroleum and food are not a good combination. Health departments do not like to see that.


----------



## MoonRise

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

Look through the CPF for 'sharpening', look through Blade Forums for 'sharpening FAQ', or do a google/whatever search for 'sharpening FAQ' and maybe also include "Joe Talmadge" in your search criteria.

Next, "razor sharp" is nice for a RAZOR, but that edge is usually too delicate for anything else. The sharpness capabilities of a knife depend a lot on the geometry of the knife, especially the edge geometry, and the steel/material in the knife. The 'proper' sharpness of a knife/tool depends a lot on the desired use of said tool.

Example time. If you sharpened an axe to 'razor' sharpness (very thin edge geometry, deeply hollow-ground, etc), then that edge won't stand up to being used like an axe is used (impact chopping of wood). If you sharpened a razor to an 'axe-type edge' (wider blade edge angle and not hollow-ground), then the razor would not shave too well!

So, all that out of the way, a steel is used to try and get the metal at the cutting edge of a knife back into line from -mildly- being misaligned. A stone/diamond/whatever is used to get the edge material into the geometry you want/need. Like maybe the edge material is chipped or dinged, the only way to get the 'edge' back is to sharpen the blade. Maybe the edge is just worn away and blunted, the only way to get the 'edge' back is to sharpen.

Just remember that sharpening REMOVES material from the blade. Over or improper sharpening can grind a blade away. Anything with abrasives, whether ceramic or stones or diamonds or whatever, is sharpening and removing material to some extent. Honing is using very fine abrasives to polish the material, but is still sharpening and removing material (albeit very-very-very little at a time!).

Next, some chefs or culinary people may have a clue about knives, sharpening, blade steel, sharpening steels, edge geometry, etc and some may not. You can certainly ask your instructors, maybe they actually do know about knives. Or maybe they just know about food and cooking and such (no major disparagement meant or implied, not everybody knows everything. I sure don't.)

Now knives do need to be resharpened, especially if they are used or used a lot. You can use many different methods to sharpen a knife. Some work better/faster than others, some take more operator skill and practice, etc, etc. If you don't know how to sharpen a knife yet, then probably the best answer to get your knives sharp now is to find a decent sharpening service and let them do it. Ask around (talk some some chefs in the area, etc) and get the job done.

And different knives may need to be sharpened slightly differently depending on their steel and the desired usage, as I said above. A cleaver certainly wouldn't be sharpened the same as a small paring knife which might not be sharpened the same as a general-purpose chef's knive used for chopping and dicing. Slicing may benefit from a thinner more delicate edge (if the steel in the knife can handle it!) while chopping needs a slightly sturdier edge to stand up to the impacts.

Skip the pull-though 'sharpeners' and pretty much any other sharpening 'gadget' (although the Chef's Choice 3-stage motorized sharpeners are decent but loud) and look up the Sharpening FAQ before buying things.


----------



## Joe Talmadge

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

If you don't know how to sharpen, my strong suggestion is to get a sharpening system that holds the angle for you. Spyderco Sharpmaker or Lanksy on the less-expensive side, Edge Pro Apex on the more expensive (but more flexible) side.

Joe


----------



## GarageBoy

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

BTW: if you use oil stones, use MINERAL OIL (its food grade)
Also, if you get a steel, get a smoooth one, not a grooved one (the groves tend to tear up edges)


----------



## BigHonu

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

I'd save the waterstones for later, after you have decided how much you want to get into the art of sharpening. The waterstones are more expensive, definitely require more prep, and more maintenance. 

If you just want instant results then do as Joe and others have mentioned. Just pick a system that holds the angle for you.

If you want to learn how to sharpen on a bench stone (which will require much more practice) then start with the longest stone you can afford. A longer stone is easier to work with. A fine grade stone should suit most kitchen knives.


----------



## JnC

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

I'd always heard this referred to as a whetstone. Wikipedia has a good description of sharpening stones .


----------



## guntotin_fool

*Re: Water Stone for sharpening knives*

Great service can be gotten using nothing but wet or dry sand paper from a body shop. I do not know the edge profiles on your blades some are convex some are concave, but the simple fact of getting the edge set back on the knive is one of keeping the angle correct and learning how to do that. once you set the angle a good knife should be able to stay sharp for a good long time with regular steeling.

If you are steeling properly and the edge is not working then the edge needs to be reprofiled by sharpening. I agree with asking the instructors at your school. I would also off to go grab some of your moms ok knifes and practice on them. mess up a 20 chicago cutlery before you mess up your hundred dollar + knives. 

Another is look in the phone book for a sharpening service near your home, drive over and ask the guy to show you how to do it. Most in the business are plenty willing to teach. 

Although water stones do a great job and some guys swear there is something magical about the edge they leave behind, under a 20X or 100X microscope, the edge is the same no matter what cuts it. I use diamond plates and sand paper as a woodworker/furniture maker, I can make big edges really sharp and I can tune up a plane or chisel blade in 5-10 minutes. Learn to keep your angles right and sharpening becomes muscle memory. The set ups that keep your angle set ar fine if you knife likes those angles, some like different angles so learning to hold them is really the best way. 

One thing to be leary of, MOST of the time, powertools used for sharpening anything finer than a lawn mower blade is unneeded...the rare exception is some carving tools where a hard felt wheel and chrome Oxide will pop an edge on there in seconds

I sharpen 8 inch joiner blades and 16 inch planer blades in a home made jig. I have no way of taking pics of it, but it is just a long clamp with parellel bars that are adjustable to hold the sharpening plate at the right angle.


----------



## 2000xlt

*Using a strop for sharpening*

Well after i just a lansky 5 stone system from sports authority for $26, i decided it might be beneficial to get a strop..Can somebody post a link to a video of someone clearly showing and describing the proper way of using a strop.

Thanks


----------



## turbodog

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*

If you went through all 5 stones, it should shave. If not, a strop will not help much. You should get sporadic shaving on stone 4, the fine one.


----------



## swampgator

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*



turbodog said:


> If you went through all 5 stones, it should shave. If not, a strop will not help much. You should get sporadic shaving on stone 4, the fine one.


 
Depends on the steel. On Buck's 420HC I can begin to shave arm hairs with the blue stone. On AUS8 I'm not shaving until into the yellow stone. 

$26 huh? I may go pick up another one. Paid $52 last year for the 5 stone, pedestal mount and the Sapphire stone. My father's day present to myself.

Anyway about a strop. The way I was taught to use one was after the edge had been sharpened draw the blade backwards (spine towards you) on the leather. The stroke should be at the same angle that the blade was sharpened and it should also sweep the entire blade's length. The stropping is only used to smooth the ultra fine burr that the stone will leave.

My strop is a 1 3/4" wide piece about 36" long. On the flesh (rough) side I have it loaded with polishing compound. The grain (smooth) side I left untreated. 

Good luck,
S'gator


----------



## springnr

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*

http://www.handamerican.com/Ihone.html


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*

That looks like just about the right info in the link. Check out the shaving FAQ on one of the larger knife store websites, too (The Knife Center has some good info and products).

There are different types and varying levels of quality for strops. Usually they are either mounted on a board or they are straps with a method of attaching to something so you can pull them tight with one hand and strop with the other. 

Tips to remember: never roll the edge over as you strop (you need to keep the correct angle consistantly) and a little paste compound goes a long way. The tiny, little tube of (yellow) paste I bought with my strop many years ago is about 3/4's gone by now, but it has lasted for a very long time. You only need to apply an amount about the size of a pea every few times you use the strop. When to apply? When the strop loses its "zug" or pull. How do you apply it? Use the heel of your hand after you have dabbed a tiny bit in several spots alongthe length of the strop and rub it in well. You should feel the strop warm up as you rub. I rub the strop with the heel of my hand every time before I use it. When I cannot feel my hand or the blade drag a tiny bit along the strop I know I have to dab on a tiny bit more paste and work it in.

A strop will polish an edge but will not sharpen it. The knife should be very, very sharp to begin with and free of any wire edge before you strop it. I use a diamond Lansky set and finish off with the yellow and then the blue (sapphire) hones and finally strop knife I want razor sharp. I always make sure the knife is very clean and free of oil before using the strop. It still will not be as sharp as a straight razor though, because a knife is not designed to be. 

Honestly though, if you don't understand all of this, you probably do not need to use a strop. Very, very few people need to have a pocket knife as sharp as you can get it on a strop. Yes, I have been able to shave with a pocket knife after honing and stroping, but to tell the truth it was a pretty stupid and dangerous thing to do just because it was so sharp. I also scared a friend of my wife who is a hair dresser by cleaning up some facial hair with pocket knife after she had trimmed it, and she is used to very sharp objects. I've gotten a lot smarter and a little less macho since then.


----------



## Danbo

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*

I strop my knives on the back of an old leather belt. Usually, it's not even necessary to strop, if you use the finer stones. I rarely use anything finer than a fine diamond hone. I prefer the microtooth edge, rather than the polished edge.


----------



## Malpaso

*Gerber or Smith pocket sharpener?*

I've been meaning to get a Smith pocket sharpener for a while, but every storefront I go into is always out, and I don't want to pay as much shipping as the sharpener. Then, this past weekend I saw someone who had a Gerber one. It's almost the same design, but a little smaller. How do the two compare?


----------



## cutlerylover

*Re: Gerber or Smith pocket sharpener?*

I owna few of those 2 sided sharpeners one side has course rods set ate the right angle, and the other has ceramic rods to put a finer edge on the knife...Actually there are a few different companies that make the same thing I own a smiths, a gerber, a rapala, and another chinese one with no name on it...they perform very similar so buying the hceapest one is your best bet with these...Walmart has 2 different ones in stock in the sporting section usually....


----------



## swampgator

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*



chmsam said:


> Very, very few people need to have a pocket knife as sharp as you can get it on a strop. Yes, I have been able to shave with a pocket knife after honing and stroping, but to tell the truth it was a pretty stupid and dangerous thing to do just because it was so sharp.


 
While I agree that very few people need a knife sharp enough to shave with, I think that the sharper the blade the safer it is. How many times have you had to force the cut with a duller blade? I have once and have the scar to prove it. 

I want my knife as sharp as I can get it. If it scares other people, oh well. I'm the only one using it. My knives don't get handed to someone to cut, the cutting gets left to me. 

An example of how sharp I keep my knives: I was sharpening one day and my buddy was sitting next to playing cards with another person. He's wearing shorts and has hairly legs. He's not paying attention to me. Needless to say by the time I was done testing my edge he had a 10" long 4" wide bald patch. He said he never felt it.

Needless to say the link provided has some good information.


----------



## springnr

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*

An edge that has been stropped/polished will last longer. Coarse edges have there uses too though.


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Gerber or Smith pocket sharpener?*

I've used them both and don't like them. They seem to do only a fair job at best. For about $25 you can get something like a Lansky Crock Stick turn box set -- two sets of ceramic rods that store in the box, fit into slots on the box, and will sharpen just about anything. Cheap, easy, and it works. Sharpens on two bevels (20 and 25 degrees) which works great. There are others that are more expensive but the set with the medium and fine grit rods will fit in your pocket and put an edge on almost anything you need it to. I sharpen a lot of knives on several different hones and still grab the box very often for a quick touch up. There are a lot of other set ups but give it a look.


----------



## cutlerylover

*Re: Gerber or Smith pocket sharpener?*

If you like your knives scary sharp like I do...then the pocket sharpeners are not enough, I agree...


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*

Sharp is good, but razor sharp might not be something for everyone to play with, since most people try to judge a razor sharp (or scary sharp) edge by shaving hair, which might not be the smartest way. It's less macho but cutting a free hanging sheet of paper is safer and just as good if not better way to judge the edge. Also, shaving the hair off of someone else might be treated as assault if your buddy just happened to decide that he didn't like the joke.

What type of edge to get and how long it stays sharp depends upon what is getting cut. I find that a highly polished edge tends to lose it's cutting ability on cardboard or rope faster than if it is used for cutting paper, so sometimes less really is more, but like all things YMMV.


----------



## cy

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*

nice link...



springnr said:


> http://www.handamerican.com/Ihone.html


----------



## Malpaso

*Re: Gerber or Smith pocket sharpener?*

I have a full set of Edgemaker sharpeners in the house. I was looking for something for hiking/camping/BOB.


----------



## Planterz

*Re: Gerber or Smith pocket sharpener?*

Any sort of V or X sharpening system is horrible for knives (except the Sharpmaker or any where the rods don't actually cross). They hog away way too much metal and you'll never get the edge as sharp as you'd like it. An edge is made sharp by forming a burr in one direction and then removing it by sharpening it on the other side. With the V or X sharpeners, it'll form a burr on both sides and probably break the burr off, meaning you've still got a dull blade. 

You're better off with a DMT pocket stone and learning to sharpen freehand. A Lansky dogbone is also a good choice, especially if your knife has serrations.


----------



## Wolfen

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*

This is just me talking not a sharpening expert. I use a a belt wrapped around sturdy anchor and pull so there is medium tension on the belt. I then use my standard approximate sharpening angle same as what you would use with a stone. I pull the edge across the belt. Smooth side to finish a sharp edge and rough side to bring back an edge on a knife. I prefer the rough side to bring back the edge over most other methods, it's quick and easy and the belt is always attached to the anchor point. I use the red polisher's rouge on both sides of the belt. I suggest experimenting with an older knife.


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Gerber or Smith pocket sharpener?*

Well, again, for a cheap and easy fix I would recommend something like the Lansky turn box Crock Sticks. Compact (about the size of a pack of cigarettes) and inexpensive (about $25). They do not remove too much metal like some pocket systems will (carbides can do that easily -- use those with a very light touch). The angles are preset with no guess work and it really works, unlike some of the small "X" style keychain sharpeners.

Pocket hones and diamond pads or sticks work best if (and for a lot of people that is a big, big "if") you have the muscle memory to find and hold the proper angle for your blades. However, if you cannot, you're going to take forever to put an edge on a blade. Learning to use a hone can be a hard thing for some people. Doing so in the field, especially in an emergency, is almost guaranteed to drive a person crazy.


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*

Wolfen, that's pretty close to it, although I might experiment with some different rouges. A razor strop is a different grade of leather but a belt certainly works. You can also use a piece of cardboard. Remember, though, this is just polishing an already sharp edge and not sharpening a dull blade. To some degree stroping will realign an edge, much like using a cutlery steel but a dull blade needs a sharpener before using a strop.


----------



## PANZERWOLF

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*



turbodog said:


> If you went through all 5 stones, it should shave. If not, a strop will not help much. You should get sporadic shaving on stone 4, the fine one.


stropping is not only about sharpness, it's also about keeping it
the leather doesn't abrade as the stone does
when using stones, even very fine ones, the very edge is still ragged on a microscopic level
the leather bends, tightens and smooths the edge particles inwards and makes the edge much more resistent against the stress during cutting



swampgator said:


> While I agree that very few people need a knife sharp enough to shave with, I think that the sharper the blade the safer it is. How many times have you had to force the cut with a duller blade?
> 
> I want my knife as sharp as I can get it. If it scares other people, oh well. I'm the only one using it. My knives don't get handed to someone to cut, the cutting gets left to me.


i couldn't agree more (a cut with a sharp knife also heals more easily, btw)
who was it who said "lending a knife and getting back a saw is an easy way to lose a friend" ?
i made that mistake only once
the guy took my freshly sharpened victorinox and used it to cut a piece of fuse on a friggin ROCK!  can you believe that


----------



## swampgator

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*



PANZERWOLF said:


> the guy took my freshly sharpened victorinox and used it to cut a piece of fuse on a friggin ROCK can you believe that


 
Yes. That's why I don't loan my knives out. 

Back when I was in the Army I would take my Lansky set up with me to the field. I'd sharpen my knives during down time. Anyway other people started having me sharpen their knives for them. No problem. One night I finish sharpening a Kershaw and had really worked to get all the nicks out of the blade. I give it back to its owner (a commo guy) who says thanks and proceeds to go cut commo wire with it. Oh well. So yeah, a lot of people have no clue when it comes to blades.


----------



## cy

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*

that guy deserves a dull knife. your sharp will last about a day... if that



swampgator said:


> Yes. That's why I don't loan my knives out.
> 
> Back when I was in the Army I would take my Lansky set up with me to the field. I'd sharpen my knives during down time. Anyway other people started having me sharpen their knives for them. No problem. One night I finish sharpening a Kershaw and had really worked to get all the nicks out of the blade. I give it back to its owner (a commo guy) who says thanks and proceeds to go cut commo wire with it. Oh well. So yeah, a lot of people have no clue when it comes to blades.


----------



## nerdgineer

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*



chmsam said:


> ...I have been able to shave with a pocket knife after honing and stroping, but to tell the truth it was a pretty stupid and dangerous thing to do just because it was so sharp...


Yeah..check out this old thread...

I used to use a home made strop (leather belt glued to board..). Don't bother any more...


----------



## lukus

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*

I've carried a pocketknife every day since about 8 years old. I just turned 40, and a good percentage of the guys in junior high and high school carried pocket knives (none of this ridiculous zero tolerance then). My knives always had a reputation for sharpness. Even the teachers would occasionally come to me to borrow a sharp. 

I've had several strops over the years, most homemade. The one I've liked best I made from a piece of new (from Tandy) vegatable tanned belt leather. 2" wide cut to 18" long and glued to a piece of plexiglass the same size. Every now and then I'll recharge it with a little SemiChrome polish. I've used it for better than 15 years. Some blades get stropped, some don't; depends on what I use it for and the quality of the steel. A Victornox hiker I carry never gets stropped - utility cutting and I want a little bite. A Doug Ritter Benchmade usually gets the strop. Finer cutting chores and occasional meat prep when making lunch.

The edge on a knife that's been properly sharpened and stropped is a little deceiving. It doesn't feel real sharp because the edge is so smooth and clean. I saw someone once cut himself pretty deep because he had already "tested" a sharp stropped edge and didn't think it was very sharp.


----------



## PANZERWOLF

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*



nerdgineer said:


> Yeah..check out this old thread...



people learning the #1 knife rule the hard way (not to cut towards parts of your own body) won't stop me from keeping my knifes in very good shape
do you downgrade your car, so that when you have an accident, at least it doesn't happen at high speed?


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*

While I would not presume to tell someone what knife they had to carry, for the same reason that I would not use a Ferrari but rather a tractor to pull a stump, I think the proper knife with the right edge will get the job done better and safer. I try to learn from the mistakes I have made and hopefully from those others have made so that I might not get to repeat them.


----------



## fireboltr

*Re: Using a strop for sharpening*

wow 5 stones huh????

for me its 3 320grit diamond 700grit diamond then 1000grit jap water stone then 5000grit jap water stone then to the strop ONLY to very lightly round the edge to make it last longer

if you are doing things right you can shave on the 320grit stone 

but if your interested go here 
 the japan woodworker

they carry the best sharpening tools you can buy 
the typical smiths tri hone and junk well its just that junk 

DMT all the way :touche:


----------



## AlexGT

*Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

What is the sweet spot in sharpness for you? 

And what do you use to get them to that sharpness?

AlexGT


----------



## carrot

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I like it when my knives are sharp to the point of being able to go through an envelope cleanly and easily. Sharper seems to be overkill. Nowadays I've been carrying a scary sharp Caly3 and backing it up with a duller (comparatively, I suppose) but more stout blade like my Delica 4 or Mini-Griptilian, and choose which one to use based on what and where I'm cutting.


----------



## JohnnyDeep

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I want my knives as sharp as the steel allows, without over-sharpening that may result in a broken edge.

Today I would use nothing but the Edge Pro. This system can handle the most delicate rasor edge including final polishing if wanted, and is capable of restoring the most damaged kitchen knife as well.


----------



## [email protected] Messenger

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

Sharp enough to shave is all I ask :laughing: (spyderco sharp) .


----------



## cy

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I like mine grabby sharp, not scary sharp. 

my EDC blade is used for any duty I come up against. not babied in any way. used not abused.


----------



## yuandrew

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

Hmm.

Well, last time I helped my Uncle shapen knives, we had them sharp enough to shave hair off the back of your hand in one swipe.


----------



## bjn70

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I like mine sharp, but they don't have to be "scary sharp". I don't put a lot of attention into sharpening them so I end up carrying a knife that isn't that sharp.

I have a Spyderco Sharpmaker, but I'm far from an expert at using it.


----------



## leukos

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I like my edges "toothy" rather than mirror polished. It also depends on what type of steel the knife is using. I tend to use more of the high carbon and tool steel varieties so the 600 grit finish serves my outdoor uses well.


----------



## cdosrun

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

My pocket knife (well the little thing you are allowed to carry in UK) is usefully sharp (but not so it loses its edge too quickly) and my kitchen knives are polished, razor sharp. I use a combination of 1000 and 5000 grit whetstones.


----------



## schrenz

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

As sharp as possible :laughing: .

I use a Lansky sharpener and the different degrees for the different knives:
15 (or17?) for the kitchen knife
20 for normal EDC (Benchmade Griptilian or Strider ED)
25 Strider MFS
30 for the heavy duty knives (Glock, Onatario TAK 7)

Greets Jens


----------



## Coop

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

Sharp enough to leave a nice clean cut when I accidentally cut my fingers...


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I like mine with the proper edge for the job.


----------



## Joe Talmadge

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

To me, fundamentally a knife is something that separates matter into two pieces. Depending on how the matter is being separated -- slicing, chopping, push-cutting, etc. -- a different type of coarseness might be indicated. But one constant is that the thinner the edge, the more efficient it will be at separating matter. And this is what I'm after. I love it when someone has to take 5 or 6 swipes to cut something in half, when my knife will do it in one swipe -- and this isn't all that uncommon. 

Since thinner edges are also weaker, what you need to get to a thinner edge is a better steel that can support the thinner edge. To me, that's the whole reason for spending more money on a better steel: to drop the edge angle more, so that I can cut better and better. It think it's convoluted thinking to judge what steel is better based on marginally better edge-holding; rather, I judge what steel is better based on a number of factors, but ability to hold a thin high-peformance edge is paramount.

Back to the original question, what's the sweet spot in sharpness? Theoretically, for me the sweet spot would be an edge that had just one molecule of material at the edge, but still had enough edge strength to cut things. Since that's just fantasy-talk, I say there's no such thing as a "sweet spot", just a progression towards thinner and higher-performance edges, as materials and material treatments are found that can support them. When a steel comes out that can support 5-degrees-per-side edges strongly enough for EDC work, I'll pay more for it. Funny thing is, lots of other guys will pay more for it also, and then slap a 20-degree-per-side edge on it, and see no irony in that. 

Joe


----------



## benchmade_boy

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I HAVE NEVER SHARPENED MY BENCHMADE GRIPTILLIAN. i have had this knife over a year and a half and i have never sharpend it. i know, i know you all are grinding you teeth at me but hey it still works but i do admit i do need to send it into benchmade for some sharpening but every time i have some money i always end up buying lights:whoopin:. i carry it every day except when i go to school but once i get home off the bus it goes right onto my pocket. every day we dont have school it goes right into my pocket when i wake up. and yes i do use my knife. i am always using it. this is why i carry one and i chose the best for the price.


----------



## cy

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

joe, what do you suggest for thick bladed knives like Strider SNG? changing blade edge to thin would require complete reshaping. 

seems that would defeat purpose of knife. 



Joe Talmadge said:


> When a steel comes out that can support 5-degrees-per-side edges strongly enough for EDC work, I'll pay more for it. Funny thing is, lots of other guys will pay more for it also, and then slap a 20-degree-per-side edge on it, and see no irony in that.
> 
> Joe


----------



## Charles S

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

Scary sharp or as sharp as the steal allows without compromising the edge. I really like the Spyderco Sharpmaker with extra fine triangles and a good strop.


----------



## Hondo

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

No survivors on the first pass shaving sharp.


I sharpen old-school. I will use a diamond stone if there is what I call damage, or I want to change the angle, but the final edge comes off of an ancient hard Arkansas stone, followed by a leather strop charged with red buffing rouge to remove the final bur. All tasks are done freehand, by eye and by feel on the stone. Yes, it takes a lot of blades to learn to nail a dead flat edge this way, but it is worth it (for me, anyway).

Hondo


----------



## BrightGal

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

Listen to Joe; he knows!



Joe Talmadge said:


> To me, fundamentally a knife is something that separates matter into two pieces. Depending on how the matter is being separated -- slicing, chopping, push-cutting, etc. -- a different type of coarseness might be indicated. But one constant is that the thinner the edge, the more efficient it will be at separating matter. And this is what I'm after. I love it when someone has to take 5 or 6 swipes to cut something in half, when my knife will do it in one swipe -- and this isn't all that uncommon.
> 
> Since thinner edges are also weaker, what you need to get to a thinner edge is a better steel that can support the thinner edge. To me, that's the whole reason for spending more money on a better steel: to drop the edge angle more, so that I can cut better and better. It think it's convoluted thinking to judge what steel is better based on marginally better edge-holding; rather, I judge what steel is better based on a number of factors, but ability to hold a thin high-peformance edge is paramount.
> 
> Back to the original question, what's the sweet spot in sharpness? Theoretically, for me the sweet spot would be an edge that had just one molecule of material at the edge, but still had enough edge strength to cut things. Since that's just fantasy-talk, I say there's no such thing as a "sweet spot", just a progression towards thinner and higher-performance edges, as materials and material treatments are found that can support them. When a steel comes out that can support 5-degrees-per-side edges strongly enough for EDC work, I'll pay more for it. Funny thing is, lots of other guys will pay more for it also, and then slap a 20-degree-per-side edge on it, and see no irony in that.
> 
> Joe


----------



## Joe Talmadge

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*



cy said:


> joe, what do you suggest for thick bladed knives like Strider SNG? changing blade edge to thin would require complete reshaping.
> 
> seems that would defeat purpose of knife.



cy, based on my previous post, you can probably guess that I'm not a fan of many of Strider's designs, we just have different ideas on what makes a knife go. I suppose I can sort-of see how a thick-edged un-ergonomic but super-strong knife might be useful to a soldier, but I'm convinced that most of the rest of us are better served with something that cuts better and is more ergonomic ... and if it's super strength you care about, you don't have to give that up either, just pick a better steel, there are stronger steels than S30V. 

You're right, for many of the big Striders, you'd have to do a complete edge reprofile to get it to cut with performance I would find acceptable, and doing so on S30V is no fun. If you want to stick with that Strider, my strategy would be to use the Strider when you want a super-strong do-everything sharpened prybar and aren't emphasizing cutting performance, and then get something more highly tuned for when you have to cut or chop.

Just my opinion, not a popular one on most tactical forums, but there it is. I like cutting performance, and even if I want super strength, I won't sacrifice cutting performance or ergonomics to get it.


----------



## cutlerylover

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I like my knives SCARY SHARP...but I knows it not ideal for certain applications, and most of the time I just use my knives for open up packages and mail (usualy more knives, lol) So what I find works is to carry a EDC sharpened to a 40 degree total edge (meaning 20 degrees on each side) this has been proven to be the most durable angle for a sharp edge that will last a while...but I usually carry 2 knives on me, one SCARY sharp for fine cutting work or simple jobs...and a beater knife for more heavy jobs like cuttign up boxes to make room int he garbage and opening up plactis packages like the molded plastic packages that stuff comes in from the store...

I own a bunch of different sharpeners myself but I love the sharpmaker the most, but only to put that great edge on...If I am sharpeneing a really dull blade I will use a Smiths carbide sharpener to get an edge then I will touch it up on the sharpmaker...


----------



## NoFair

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I usually try to keep my EDCs hair-splitting sharp
All my EDCs are Spydercos and have no trouble with 15 degrees on each side. My Caly 3 is slightly below 15 degrees and seems to have no trouble slicing whatever I want without damaging the edge at all.

I do have a Santoku (Spyderco) that is about 15 degrees inclusive, but I haven't seen any damage to the edge even after a lot of slicing and dicing in the kitchen. 

I don't think I have any knives that are at more than 20 degrees on each side, if the knife can't handle that I give it away and get a better one. 

My dive knife is the exception to this rule since Spyderco hasn't released the new H1s yet

And in case anyone wonders Joe knows his knives


----------



## Danintex

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I got my Edge Pro about a year ago and now I can sharpen to whatever degree I feel is needed. For instance, a large fixed blade doesn't get as much TLC as a nice folder or a Leatherman blade. I do fix up some edges just to show off though- isn't that what it's all about?


----------



## guyg

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I sharpen mine to where they will slice thru computer paper with little or no pressure from me. I thinned down my Buck Strider so it would work better for me. I also use thinner edges.


----------



## cy

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

thanks for verifying what I thought. there's just no way to put a high performance edge on a SNG thick blade without reprofiling entire blade. 

my centuries old Japanese blades go from thick tapering in a flat grind all the way to thin edge. technology has been around for centuries to do exactly what you describe. 



Joe Talmadge said:


> cy, based on my previous post, you can probably guess that I'm not a fan of many of Strider's designs, we just have different ideas on what makes a knife go. I suppose I can sort-of see how a thick-edged un-ergonomic but super-strong knife might be useful to a soldier, but I'm convinced that most of the rest of us are better served with something that cuts better and is more ergonomic ... and if it's super strength you care about, you don't have to give that up either, just pick a better steel, there are stronger steels than S30V.
> 
> You're right, for many of the big Striders, you'd have to do a complete edge reprofile to get it to cut with performance I would find acceptable, and doing so on S30V is no fun. If you want to stick with that Strider, my strategy would be to use the Strider when you want a super-strong do-everything sharpened prybar and aren't emphasizing cutting performance, and then get something more highly tuned for when you have to cut or chop.
> 
> Just my opinion, not a popular one on most tactical forums, but there it is. I like cutting performance, and even if I want super strength, I won't sacrifice cutting performance or ergonomics to get it.


----------



## guntotin_fool

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

sharp enough to remove all the hair on the back of my arm in one pass. if not that sharp, then i need to spend time at the bench. All done freehand, Diamond plate, wet or dry paper or the burnished edge of a beer bottle. Finished on a leather strop, one side with green CrO2 and the last with black paste.


----------



## Stingray

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

As sharp as possible without being weak.


----------



## MikeSalt

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I use a Richardson sharpening steel to get my Leatherman Squirt P4 to the desired sharpness. This is achieved when the knife, supported just by the keychain, can cut through pallet shrinkwrap under its own weight only.


----------



## Coop

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*



MikeSalt said:


> I use a Richardson sharpening steel to get my Leatherman Squirt P4 to the desired sharpness. This is achieved when the knife, supported just by the keychain, can cut through pallet shrinkwrap under its own weight only.




Either you use lousy quality shrinkwrap, or thats one seriously sharp P4


----------



## rugbymatt

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I like them as sharp as I can get them, which is scary sharp. Of course that depends on the steel. I mostly buy higher end production, ie: sebenza and Striders, and Customs, which have all been delivered scary sharp. You gotta like the custom makers.

To Cy. you are right about Striders, although I have been lucky in that most of mine have come very sharp, they do need some work to get scary sharp. I have taken my SnG and PT from the 25 degree angle down to a 20, and they are now scary sharp. I think the steel would even support 15 degrees but would give up some of its strength. The Pt took about two hours to reprofile while the SnG took an evening. Well worth the time as I now have two knives that can take a lot of abuse and still cut with the best of them. My Ar and SmF arrived very very sharp and I saw no reason to mess with them.

After getting the knives to the sharpness that I like, I find a strop to be very useful in maintaining a scary sharp edge.

I find the edge pro to be very good at reprofiling an edge.


----------



## Hooligan

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I have a BUCK-STRIDER-TARANI 882 SBTG that I sharpened to be quite sharp @ 15 degrees per side. I just noticed that I had some chipping on the blade ~3 weeks later (ATS-34, by the way). Damn. I have a 5 stone Lansky kit that gets the job done pretty well, but it will take me forever to get these chips out with it. Do you have any recommendations for removing those chips?


----------



## JackJ

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I too use the Edge Pro -- the Apex model -- and until I got it was routinely frustrated in getting my knives consistently, and reasonably quickly, sharp. I never got the feel for freehanding with waterstones or the "scary sharp" sandpaper method. I mean, I could make a blade sharp that way, but it took a long time, wasn't consistent from heel to tip, and wasn't as sharp as I wanted. The problem was my technique, I'm sure, but even after reading up and watching some videos, I wasn't there. The Sharpmaker and similar work well enough once you have the bevels correct, but they're not the too for rebevelling a knife, in my experience, something that's occassionally necessary with any knife that gets a lot of use.

The Edge Pro, with all the accessory stones, is extremely fast, and at the same time gives great control. There's a little technique involved, but it's easy to get the hang of, and I can dial in, and repeat, any angle I want. The end result is also sharper than I've achieved with any other method. I bought the polishing tapes, but haven't used them yet as the 600 stone, followed by a smooth steel, gets me to the point where the item to be cut starts separating before the blade makes contact, out of fear! Well, almost.

Jack


----------



## RA40

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

As Joe mentioned, different edges for different uses. Most mine get a similar edge profile due to the sharpening jig used on the Burr King. I vary how I want the edge by the grit of abrasive used. Most frequently 320 grit. 

To check the edge, I roll up a 20# piece of laser/copy paper and angle the blade about 30-45 degrees then draw the blade across. It should catch and cut into the paper. Similar motion as if you were going to steel your kitchen knives. 

This is a serviceable edge...it is not scary sharp. For me, it is a blend of cutting and durability for a variety of tasks. YMMV


----------



## cbxer55

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

Scary sharp for me.
I sharpen unti lit will cleanly cut tissue paper.
Only then am I satisfied.
My main blade is a Benchmade Rukus which came scary sharp.
My beater is a Kershaw black leek which is sharpened 10 degrees each side.
I still have not chipped it, but do have to lightly touch it up every day.

Robert Hill
Midwest City, OK.


----------



## gadget_lover

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

Since I can't sharpen a knife properly to save my life, I use The Edgecraft "edgeselect " electric sharpener. The model 120 does a tri-bevel edge with the last step is a polishing/stropping step. The model 110 does it using oscillating creamic/diamond hones. 

I just recently resharpened all the kitchen knives. I had not done it in a while, since it is a boring task. All of my knoves are pretty cheap. I used a slightly different method and ended up with a pretty nice edge on all of them. It only took 1 minute per blade. If you have no talent for sharpening knives, this is a pretty good way to do it.

I warned my wife. ALL the knives had been sharpened. She cut herself twice this week while holding an avocado in her hand and and gently pushing down towards her palm to slice it. I've been instructed to never again sharpen two of her paring knives. 

My CRKT Ichi (a 3 inch drop point - assisted opening pocket knife) is even sharper now than it was when I bought it. I like them sharp as possible. My wife wants them predictibly dull.

Daniel


----------



## stdlrf11

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I like mine sharp enough to do this:

http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g197/stdlrf11/?action=view&current=knifesharp2.flv

Any sharper and I'd have to touch it up all the time. Once a month I'll strop my EDC knives.

stdlrf11


----------



## GarageBoy

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

Depends
on certain knives, a la my thin grind opinels, as sharp as I can. I probably have a 5-10 degree inclusive edge on it. 
On knives for rope, sharp, but coarse edge


----------



## Manzerick

*Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

Hey Folks,

I was wondering is someone could please help me learn how to sharpen knifes. I have seen the online material and different stones but don't really understand what to do and what to use. When I was younger my grandfather showed me but I could never get the hang of it. Plus you could shave the eye lashes off a fly with his edge so I was spoiled. 

Basically, I was hoping to find out the following:

1) what stone to use and where to get it. (cheap is good but better is...better)

2) How to use it without killing the blade

3) hints? 


Thank you in advance!!!!


The Manz


----------



## Manzerick

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I just opened a post on how to sharpen knifes and this was the first thing I thought of LOL



MayCooper said:


> Sharp enough to leave a nice clean cut when I accidentally cut my fingers...


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

Try going to the Knife Center of the Internet, then to their Sharpencenter. There will be a pull down menu near the top center of the page and near the bottom of that you'll see "sharpening tips." This is a good place to start. It will give you basic and more complete information as well.

Sharpening depends on several things:

- what you are sharpening
- what it is going to be used for
- whether you can maintain a consistant angle sharpening "free hand" on a hone (like your grandfather did) or whether you'd be better off using a sharpening "system"
- how sharp you want or really need things (lots of discussion on this topic alone!)
- how many gizmos you want to buy and how much you want to spend (don't laugh -- you'll find out this can eat almost as much money as flashlights)

There are many other postings here and on other forums about this topic. You could write an encyclopedia.


----------



## cutlerylover

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

I find that the sharpmaker is the easiest and most efficient sharpening tool to use...Its not the cheapest but for the $50 or so you will pay for it, its worth every penny, but I also understand not everyone can or will spend $50 on a sharpenign system...So, here is a link to my free website that has some info on sharpenign that might help you a bit if you decide to buy a sharpening stone...

http://www.freewebs.com/cutlerylover/sharpening.htm

Now...here is where you can find sharpening equiptment pretty cheap...I made it so that you will see all of the items from cheapest to most expensive this way you can look at the cheaper stuff 1st, just click the next page when you hit the bottom, and Im sure with all of those items you will find somethign in your budget that you like!

http://www.eknifeworks.com/webapp/e...96&SearchText=&list=50&range=1&order=PriceAsc


----------



## Manzerick

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

Thank you folks!! i appreciate the help!!!


Is there a sharpenign system that is better for a beginer or are they all pretty easy?


Also, on a hone freehand, it it really difficult?


----------



## highorder

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

my grandfather always told me that you should get a nice flat arkansas stone and pretend to try and take very thin slices off the face of the stone.


----------



## Malpaso

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

Where does one get just a sharpening stone, the kind that fits in the small pocket on a sheath?


----------



## Manzerick

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

Spyderco looks good..

any feedback? (I can't figure how it works either LOL)


----------



## Josey

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

I'd recommend that you buy a mechanical sharpening system that lets you keep the correct angle between the stone and the blade. Although you can learn to sharpen knives freehand, it takes a long time. The Sharpmaker by Spyderco is the easiest of the mechanical systems. (EdgePro is also very good, but much more complicated and expensive.) However, you still have to know the theory. Here's the progression:

1) Learn the theory.
2) Match the sharpening angle of the stone to the angle of the edge. 
3) Raise a burr, and then gently remove the burr.
4) Once sharp, touch up the edge after each use or after each hard use so it never gets dull.

The theory is important because unless you know what you're doing, you can ruin the edge or, at best, not get it sharp. Here are some things that can go wrong:
A) You use your stone or Sharpmaker, but the angle of the stone does not match the angle of the edge, so you don't end up sharpening the knife at all, you just grind away at the back shoulder of the edge bevel. Or you freehand it, but the angle of your sharpening keeps changing, so you basically deform the edge.

B) You don't raise a burr (a fine wire edge that bends over to the opposite side of the edge that you are sharpening), so the knife never gets sharp.

C) You don't remove the burr, so after using it, the wire edge falls off and the knife is quickly dull.

D) You don't stop after raising the burr, so you needlessly grind away metal and hasten the day when you need to reprofile the entire edge.

To see whether the edge matches your sharpening angle, paint the edge with a magic marker and make a dry pass with the stone. This pass will show you whether the stone and the edge are properly mated. If they are not properly mated, you have to either change your sharpening angle or reprofile the edge (change the angle of the edge).

Personally, I use only good steels (S30V, D2, M2, ATS-34, 154CM, VG-10, BG-42) and sharpen the edge to 30 degrees inclusive (15 degrees on each side). Hard use knives may need a steeper angle or a secondary edge bevel. The Sharpmaker has 30 degree (15 on each side) angles and 40 degree angles. The better steels let you use a steeper angle without the edge becoming too fragile, and the steeper the angle the better the knife cuts.

Blade Forums has lots of links to sharpening threads and information sources. A couple hours reading will give you the theory, and a few hours practice will give you the skill. The nice thing about knowing how to sharpen is that it makes knife ownership much more satisfying.

Good luck.

Josey


----------



## dwminer

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

Sharpmaker, (SC204MF) comes with a demo DVD, watch it twice. Very easy to use.
http://newgraham.com/detail.aspx?ID=3595
Dave
I also have an Edge Pro, lots of DMT stuff, Lansky Systems and lots of flat stones. The sharpmake is the one I leave on the kitchen counter and use all the time.


----------



## karlthev

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

Get a Lansky sharpening system. Best investment you'll make in knife sharpening from my perspective. Use mine all the time.


Karl


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

Not to sound like a wise guy, but the system that is best for you is the one that works best for you. See if some of your friends have sharpeners you can try before you buy your own. This is a hot topic for debate since there are lots of fans of each type of sharpening system as well as free hand honing.

Now, to furthur confuse you, whichever method you use the most important two things to learn are what angle to use and how to maintain a consistent angle.

To do the first, mark the edge of the blade with a marker. Then after you very lightly run the edge over the hone, examine the edge. If the ink is removed only at the very edge, the angle is too high. If the ink is removed only at the back of the edge, it's too low. If the ink is removed along the entire bevel of the edge, you've got it right. Remember, not all blades use the same angle on the edge. That depends on the style of the blade and its intended use. Some folks change the angle of the bevel on the blade for one that works better for them.

The next trick is to repeat each stroke on the hone at the same angle every time. Sounds easy, right? Until you develope "muscle memory" -- practice, practice, practice -- you won't be sharpening correctly and won't get a good edge. Be consistent and you'll find that it is much less work. This takes a while to learn and some people never get it. Lansky, Apex, Sharpmaker, Chef's Choice, and many other systems sell a lot just for this reason.

OK, got it? Well now, on to some other choices. Did you want ceramic, natural/Arkansas, synthetic, or diamond hones? How about water stones? Did you want to sharpen you knives on a hone that's dry or one that uses water, honing oil, or food grade mineral oil? Did I mention strops? What grit did you want for your hones? How high did you want to go and on what measuring system? What steel are your blades made of and how hard are they on the Rockwell (Rc) scale? Why don't you look at ceramic knives? Just what are you going to cut with each knife anyway -- paper, rope, cardboard, drywall, etc.? 

And how about knife maintenance? What kind of lube should you use for the pivots? How are you going to protect the blade from rust, pitting, and corrosion? How do you clean the pivots and locks of your folders? Is water bad for all blades? Why shouldn't you cut lemons with certain types of knives?

See, it's really very simple...

The reason I mention this is that I find a lot of people make buying, using, and caring for a knife much more of a debate than it needs to be. You really do need to do some research and practice a bit, but knives aren't all that complicated. Just do some web searches, pick up a few good magazines or books, and ask a few questions, but spend a little of your time before you spend a lot of your money.


----------



## Coop

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

which one of the 'cheaper' aligned sharpeners would be best? DMT, Lansky, Gatco? I need something to fit in between the touch up with my Gatco Triseps and bringing my knives to one of my friends who has an Edgepro.


----------



## NutSAK

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*



karlthev said:


> Get a Lansky sharpening system. Best investment you'll make in knife sharpening from my perspective. Use mine all the time.
> 
> Karl



I agree with Karl. The Lansky is a _very _good system--especially for the beginner. It's widely available and relatively inexpensive too.


----------



## Danbo

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*



highorder said:


> my grandfather always told me that you should get a nice flat arkansas stone and pretend to try and take very thin slices off the face of the stone.



Good advice. Except that now, times and steels have changed. With today's new, high tech, more wear resistant steels(both stainless and non stainless), you'll spend a lot of time with an Arkansas stone. I recommend diamond hones. 

I use a DMT fine(red) diamond hone. I use it exactly the same way as my Grandpa did, except mine takes off more metal easier. With the diamond, there's no need to bear down on the stone. Let the diamond do the work. Sharpening is easy. You simply attempt to slice an imaginary layer off the stone. Critical, is the angle. You must keep the same angle at all times. I generally use about 20 degrees. This means raising the spine of the knife blade off the stone about an 1/8" and maintaining that angle the entire stroke. Make sure to take the same amount of steel off each side of the blade. If you do 10 strokes on one side, do the same on the other side. From this point, it's just a matter of patience, until the desired edge sharpness is achieved. Myself, I generally leave the fine, micro sawtooth edge that the diamond hone provides, but you can then go to the hard Arkansas stone, if a polished edge is desired. Occasionally, I will strop the edge of mine on the back of an old leather belt, but I rarely find that necessary.


----------



## Danbo

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

Jerry Fisk once told me, he likes his knives, "Sharp enough to scare the hair off a gnat's ***". 

Myself, I'm not quite as picky. As long as I cannot actually see the edge with light reflecting off it, it's sharp enough for me.


----------



## chmsam

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

As for aligner type systems, I use a Lansky. Be advised that while it might be a pretty low cost entry, by getting more and more hones (different grits, diamond hones, etc.) you can burn a hole in a wallet by purchasing the whole collection. 

Btw, setup gets to be pretty quick if you have a mount attached to your work bench. Wanna go portable but don't want to scratch up a surface with the c-clamp mount or otherwise can't use it? Attach a work bench mount to a large clipboard. Now you're good to go any place that you can set it on your lap or can find a flat surface on which to place it.

Also, re: Danbo's post -- I second that. DMT diamond hones do a lot of the work for you. Remember, too, no matter which method you use, you almost never need to really bear down on an edge while sharpening. Let the hones do the work for you. If you really have to put some effort into sharpening the blade you have probably waited to long to try to bring back the edge.


----------



## cutlerylover

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

Lansky is good sicne they have somethign like 6 different sets depending on what you want/need...the more expensive set uses diamond stones...but that is expensive...on the other ahnd it you don't need an elaborate set they ofer cheaper simple sets with course, medium and fine stones for something along the $30 range...


----------



## carrot

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

The Sharpmaker is good for keeping a shaving edge on knives. If it's really dull... well, you're SOL. Although I heard you can just wrap the rods with sandpaper...

How the Sharpmaker works, for anyone interested, is not magic at all. It just holds the rods at specific angles and you hold the knife vertically while sliding the blade down the rods. I am not so good at freehand (I can maintain a working edge on a knife freehand) but with the Sharpmaker it is very easy to make a shaving-sharp edge. Holding the knife straight is easier than it sounds, because the arm can pivot to make repeated vertical motions with ease.


----------



## Gone Jeepin

*Re: Knives: How sharp do you like them?*

I like them sharp. Like others have stated, use the right blade for the job. I have several of the "sharpened pry bars" for heavy use but do not EDC them. The EDC knives for me are the slicers - thinner blades with finer edges. I like the utility of a SAK and the security of a locking blade so EDC ends up a funny mix of steel.


----------



## Lobo

*What's the catch with this sharpener?Why should I get a better?*

I bought a cheap Two Stage Smith's sharpener from Lighthound among some other things. 
http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1704
I really havent been that much in to sharpening before, got me some diamond sharpeners, but they we're next to useless on my knifes (mostly mora, opinel, leatherman tools, and victorinox). But this little cheap sharpener has made my knifes razorsharp, almost all of them! I was wondering if there we're any catch with this one and that I should buy a more expencive system. Maybe it grinds down the knifes too fast? I maybe shouldnt use it with kitchen cutlery (allthough it has worked fine with the ones I have)? I'm definetely no expert on sharpening, neither are my friends and family, but everybody I have showed this to are REALLY impressed. Allthough I guess most people (including me) doesnt really take care of their cutlery, getting a 100USD Global and then not take care of it is all too common.


----------



## MoonRise

*Re: What's the catch with this sharpener?Why should I get a better?*

Well, it's not really razor sharp. Real razor sharp is a whole level or four of 'sharp' past what that type of sharpener can do on a good day.

Drawbacks to that type of sharpener:

Fixed angle of blade edge, rods have all their wear from sharpening concentrated on one point, fixed grit of rods, the rods can't get all the way into the bolster/choil area of the blade to sharpen there, it is kind of easy to round over the tip of the blade when using that type of sharpener.

If the angle of the rods matches the existing edge angle of the blade, it will work relatively quickly. If the existing blade edge angle does not match the angle of the rods, then you are "reprofiling" the blade and it will take longer to do that than 3-4 strokes. Maybe 300 strokes. Or more.

It's better than nothing, but not as good as some other sharpeners.


----------



## Lobo

*Re: What's the catch with this sharpener?Why should I get a better?*

Well, I can easily shave armhair with my Leatherman Wave, Victorinox Hunter, Benchmade Mini-Pika and Byrd Cara Cara after using it on them, maybe not razor sharp literally, but it's sharp enough for me.

I know nothing about blade angles, would you say that they differ a lot between knives? Does a certain type of knife have a certain angle?
And would you have a suggestion for a good sharpening system that is not too expensive? 
Cheers!


----------



## mikehill

*Re: What's the catch with this sharpener?Why should I get a better?*

Spyderco Sharpmaker  
Mike.


----------



## cutlerylover

*Re: What's the catch with this sharpener?Why should I get a better?*

I second mikhills post, the sharpmaker is all you will ever need fro all your sharpenign needs...and if you think that smiths sharpener made your knives sharp your in for a real treat if you get the spyderco sharpener! Different angles have different advantages...the more acute the angle (less of and angle) the sharper the blade will get but as you moves to smaller and smaller angles the edge retention becomes less and less, for the most part...for example if you ahve a really fine edge it will cut like crazy but after the 1st few cuts its dull already, and with a really thin cutting edge the chances of your cutting edge possible chipping or breaking are better...so the compramise of heavy duty cuttign and sharpness has been pretty much agreed on upon lots of knife companies and most factory edges will be about 40 degrees total, meaning 20 degree shapeneing on each side of the blade...

Getting into sharpeneing is not that comp;icated but at 1st it sounds very complicated with all the angles, and different steels and so on...but after a google search and about 2 or 3 hours of reading you will become a pro!

As far as your smiths sharpener goes its great for people who do not know what they are doing when it comes to sharpening, the fixed angle and ease of use is a major plus for beginners...if you really get into it and want your knives much sharper you will just need some basic info which can be found on any knife forum...

but for most non knife nuts who happen to own and use knives, your sharpener will get your knives as sharp as you wil need them for the most part...but once you get them sharper you will never want to go back..its like getting a brighter flashlight, more lumens that impress you makes your old lights seem weak...So once you go down that road you will not want to turn back, lol...


----------



## mikehill

*Re: What's the catch with this sharpener?Why should I get a better?*

It also comes with a DVD to explain various knife profiles, angles etc ... Will also sharpen scissors, fishing hooks etc ... Brilliant piece of kit  
Mike.


----------



## dw51

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

I don't want to hijack the thread, but which is preferred-Lansky or Sharpmaster? I've narrowed my search to those two.


----------



## fnmag

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

This is a great thread for me. I've always considered knife sharpening to be somewhat of a "black art". I've never got the hang of it probably due to so many different opinions. I've bought all kinds of high quality Arkansas stones, ceramics, many different DMT diamond hones, plus many books. I still haven't got a clue. So after reading the previous threads, it seems like this Spyderco Sharpmaker is the way to go. I have a lot of questions but I'll ask this one, hypothetical, if you knowlegable people had a $1000 custom knife( or even more expensive) would you trust the Sharpmaker to sharpen the knife or would you use some other, more expensive, sharpening system? Cheers.


----------



## KC2IXE

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*



fnmag said:


> ...snip... if you knowlegable people had a $2500 custom knife( or even more expensive) would you trust the Sharpmaker to sharpen the knife or would you use some other, more expensive, sharpening system? Cheers.



Depends on the blade shape of the knife - it's OK for touchups - but unless used carefully, the sharpmaker will round the pint of the blade

Haven't used it on a $2500 custom - but on $800 customs...


----------



## bjn70

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

I use a sharpmaker but I haven't mastered it yet. (BTW, mine didn't come with a video.)

I bought a coarse DMT stone for reprofiling. I put a couple of 2x4's together to make a stand, and cut a notch in them to hold the DMT stone upright at an angle. I cut the notch carefully so that the angle of the DMT stone was about 2 degrees steeper than the sharpmaker rods, that way I can use the DMT stone in the same manner you use the Sharpmaker, and it achieves the correct angle automatically. Then switch to the Sharpmaker for a 2-angle edge.


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## Lobo

*Re: What's the catch with this sharpener?Why should I get a better?*

Thanks Cutlerylover and Mikehill. I contemplated buying the sharpmaker before, but didnt. Even more tempted now, a good sharpener is really a good investment.


----------



## cutlerylover

*Re: What's the catch with this sharpener?Why should I get a better?*

Yeah, Mikehill is right, mine came with a great video (dvd) showing how to use it to sharpen not only knives, but scissors, axe's, shop tools, even nail clippers...So there are alot of different applications for the sharpenign system...and you also get a nice booklet with instructions in case thats easier for you than watchign the video...I even got a quick history lesson from Sal in the video about knives and sharpening methods...he goes into detail about angles too...Very helpfull! Plus the ceramic rods it uses are very strong, in fact not only does it file any kind of steel but it will even file other sharpenign stones too he shows this in the video...plus the system makes sharpening serrated knives very easy as well which can be a real pain in the butt otherwise...

Sorry for the sales pitch, I do not work for spyderco, lol, I just love my spyderco sharpmaker!!!!!!!!


----------



## StevieRay

*Re: What's the catch with this sharpener?Why should I get a better?*



mikehill said:


> Spyderco Sharpmaker
> Mike.




Anyone know of a good place to purchase one of these?


----------



## Ken 222

*Re: What's the catch with this sharpener?Why should I get a better?*



StevieRay said:


> Anyone know of a good place to purchase one of these?


 

Save some money here:

http://newgraham.com/detail.aspx?ID=3595


----------



## scubasteve1942

*Re: What's the catch with this sharpener?Why should I get a better?*

+1 on the sharpmaker.


----------



## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

OK. I bought the SM204 and received it yesterday.

Here are my first impressions:

I love how compact the SM is. Very convenient and portable! It appears to be pretty high quality and well designed. It's a very ingenius setup I think.

I also liked the instruction booklet and video. As such things go, these seemed pretty good.

So, I read the booklet and watched most of the video (skipped over some tools I won't ever sharpen on the 204) and grabbed one of my chef's knives and proceeded to try to cut a back bevel of 30 degrees on it.

HOLY COW! I realized very quickly that I made a mistake in not buying the diamond hones. I was thinking I could get by without them. Either that or cut the back bevel / re-profile using a belt sander or free hand on my waterstone or maybe buy the EdgePro as well. But given that the extra $60 isn't much of an issue for me (as long as my wife doesn't find out) I just went ahead and ordered them. Have to pay shipping twice now, but oh well.

Anyway, the point is (as has been mentioned already in this thread) that if you have to remove a lot of metal, using the standard SM204 medium grit rods is painful, painful, painful! I spent the better part of an hour last night on that knife and still didn't close the edge everywhere. And I had to clean the rods twice to remove the buildup of metal.

So, what I'm saying is that if you want to re-profile with the 204, the diamond hones are a must.

But why reprofile with the 204?

Well, at the moment, my thoughts on the matter are like this: the 204 is so wonderfully portable and convenient that I really like the idea of more or less keeping that convenience and portability and yet adding the ability to fairly easily re-profile knives. I'm thinking of my parents and parent-in-law's knives when I go to visit, among other things. I like the idea of being able to just add two more hones to the setup and be good to go. In fact, for kitchen knives I don't think I would use the fine hones anyway, so I could always put the medium ones in their slots, and the diamond ones in the slots where the medium ones go.

Anyway, I will have a more in depth report in a month or so, with pictures and a more informed assessment of the 204.

What I can definitely tell you is that I'm very sure that this sharpener is going to be ideal for weekly (or even daily) touchups of my knives. It more than meets my requirements of convenience and portability! I think that at $50 it's a flat out bargain, and would probably complement an EdgePro nicely.

Of course, all of this has been mentioned before! Just adding my 2 cents.


----------



## Pax et Lux

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

I have the Lansky. It was as I expected, for what I paid. 

I have had good results, considering I'm still learning. I personally think it's better to start off small, learning about the theory behind sharpening and the characteristics of different steels - at least, that's where the enjoyment is for me.

I have a few minor complaints about the system:

1. I thought that it would come with more instructions: using the rig and the theory behind sharpening. There were pages of colour photos trying to sell me Lansky products, but just a few lines about using the actual system. Luckily, I had already seen the best tutorial on using the Lansky:
http://users.ameritech.net/knives/knives1c.htm

This is from the Steve "Sharpening Made Easy" Bottorff website (the home page is http://users.ameritech.net/knives/index.htm).

2. The course stone is quite mild for working on blunt knives. I'd recommend getting an extra-course stone in the hope of speeding things along, and maybe the clamp to hold it to a workbench.


----------



## fnmag

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Thankyou for your first impression post. It is helpful reading. You mention that you've ordered the extra Sharpmaker diamond hones, I assume, for your chef's/kitchen knives. Do you think you'd still have ordered the diamond hones if you only used the Sharpmaker for your hunting/carry/EDC knives?


----------



## paulr

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

I found the Apex to be somewhat of a PITA, the course stones get sludge all over the place and the fine ones are very slow operating. But it sure makes getting a consistent bevel angle trivial. I think they have some diamond hones for it now and that probably helps a lot. I haven't used mine in ages and I guess I'll put it on BST if I can find it.


----------



## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

fnmag,

No. I wouldn't use the diamond hones on my Sebbie! Or any other personal knife.

My kitchen knives are all Henkels four star knives, and I got them a long time ago--before I knew what I know know about good knives. I have been sharpening them by hand on a Japanese water stone, 800 or 1000 grit IIRC, or with a course DMT paddle. I have been putting a 22.5 degree edge on them (45 degree included).

However, before that, I was periodically sending them out to a _"professional"_ knife sharpening service done through my favorite kitchen/chef's store. And that SOB was using a grinding wheel and taking off a LOT of metal--and screwing up the angles from time to time. When I figured that out, I was pissed, and never did that again, and laboriously re-ground the bevel by hand and with my 22.5 degree angle guide. It's a small plastic wedge that I put on the bench stone to set my starting angle. Then I keep it there by eye and feel. Slow, non-fun process.

Anyway, point is that the edge was considerable. A lot of area there at the 22.5 angle. So, reprofiling to a 15/20 compound bevel means taking of way more steel from the shoulders than is easy to do with the SM medium hones. I could put sand paper around the hones and do it that way. Or with a bench sander. Or any number of other ways, I'm sure. But I figured, what the heck, I want the diamond hones. Makes the 204 that much more versatile. And it will make re-profiling my larger chef knife SOOOOO much easier than my smaller one.

Unfortunately, I am now lusting after some Japanese kitchen knives. If I could just prevent my wife or any guest from using them . . . (ha!) I still remember the first time a walked in to see my sister-in-law sticking my chefs knife (that I had *just* sharpened the week before) POINT DOWN into the metal silverware holder cage on the dish drainer. I didn't say anything, but was none too happy. And when I pulled it out and looked at it, sure enough, there was a considerable ding in my nice freshly sharpened edge. 

So, I can just imagine what that would be like with a $800 Hattori KD! Someone on www.knifeforums.com brought his 240 mm KD to work (he's a chef) and left it at his station, then came back to find one of his co-workers using it to punch a hole in an olive oil can. (no joke). The women who did it is still alive and well, thanks to this persons very enlightened outlook on material possessions. LOL!

paulr,

Hmmmm. I'm mildly interested in your EdgePro if you do sell it. Shoot me a PM when/if you put it on B/S/T.


----------



## Paul5M

*Re: Knife Shapening for dummys...HELP!*

Now, I understand why people're complaining about D2 steel beeing too hard to sharpen 
Here's my sharpening stone:


----------



## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

OK, I'm really agravated and angry right now. My second impression of the Sharpmaker is that *IT SUCKS!*

However, I'm trying not to take that too seriously.

It's just taking for freaking ever to remove any metal. I don't understand. Can it really be this whimpy? Can it really be so ineffectual? What the hell is the use of super hard, super long lasting hones *IF THEY DON'T CUT?*

I'm not happy. Not happy at all.

And worse, my diamond hones are in limbo, supposed to ship in "1-2 weeks" and I haven't been able to get hold of BestKnives.com via phone or email. Just no response. I have half a mind to cancel my diamond hones order.

I have cleaned my hones multiple times, using soft scrub cleanser and 3M heavy duty scrub pads, then I tried the 3M pads with baking soda, then soft scrub with a nylon pad. Since the baking soda, wierd, smelly white-rough spots have appeared on my hones (the medium ones). Can it possibly be that the stones react with _baking soda_? That can't be, right?

Could someone please shed some light on the situation? I must be doing something wrong, either that or I'm just too used to the cutting action of a waterstone or diamond hone. I've watched the video. I understand a fair amount about sharpening already. I don't think I am doing anything wrong. But I sure am rather effing frustrated right now.

No one should need to spend more than two hours just to close the edge on a knife, no matter how dull. I've used the magic marker test to check, and, yes, it's true: still haven't closed the edge.

And the medium hones have plenty of metal marks in them which just don't come out. Is that normal?

And the stupid white hones often don't stay in place in the holder: they'll pop out and fall.

Obviously, right now, I'm feeling as if I've just wasted my money and that I was stupid not to get an EdgePro.

Yet, something must be wrong, one way or another, because so many people think so highly of the Sharpmaker.

I don't know. All I know right now is that I am NOT happy about things. Not, not, not.


----------



## Owen

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Reprofiling anything bigger or with harder steel than something like a SAK or small kitchen utility knife is going to take a long time. The corners of the medium stone are the only thing that really remove any metal, and they don't remove much. The Sharpmaker is good for touchups, not reprofiling(I've reprofiled a 3.5" recurve blade in S90V/420V with one, and it literally took weeks of off and on sharpening).
Bon Ami, and a scrub brush with hot water is what I usually use to clean mine, though I have used baking soda a time or two. If you're getting white spots on the medium hones, you may have just not rinsed the baking soda off well enough. The black marks should all come off. Use Bon Ami or Comet(I know it's got bleach, but it's not staying in the stone). Sometimes it takes a brillo pad to really get them perfectly clean.


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## Josey

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

If your knives are 45 degrees (pretty steep for kitchen knives), then the Sharpmaker is not going to do much. And if you're trying to reprofile from 45 degrees to 30 degrees, the Sharpmaker is going to take forever. The Sharpmaker is really meant to keep 30-degree knives sharp and, in some cases, put a 40-degree secondary bevel on teh edge.

PM me if you would like to borrow my EdgePro. It's really nice to put a precise new edge on your knives. Set it to 30 degrees, then your Sharpmaker will keep them sharp with hardly any effort at all.

Josey


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## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Owen,

So what about the diamond hones? Can you re-profile with them? I really hope so. As for cleaning, thanks for the advice. So, why use Bon Ami and a scrub brush if it sometimes takes a brillo pad to get them _really_ clean? Is there any reason why you wouldn't use a brillo pad ALL the time?

Josey,

It's looking very much like I will need to get myself an EdgePro anyhow, so I'll probably just up and buy one soon anyway. But I really, really appreciate the offer! Thanks very much.

*****

I've already got a few things to say about the DVD video that came with the SM204. Almost every item that Sal Glesser sharpens in the video, the two others say something like "Oh, Sal, yeah, that pocket knife is so dull it won't even cut butter right now. It really needs a good sharpening." Then Sal goes swipe, swipe, swipe, etc. for about 5 strokes on each side and then he starts cutting papper effortlessly. Then swipe, swipe, swipe some more on the white stones and the knife is now so sharp it can split hairs and shave paper and pop arm hairs.

*cough* I don't think so. I mean, I understand that it would be stupid to have 20 minutes of sharpening footage on just the first item, but the video really gives the impression that the 204 can take something very dull and turn it shaving sharp with 20 strokes per side per step. And given how fast Sal swipes away at those tools, it's hard to watch the video and have *any inclination at all of exactly how freaking long it will take to sharpen a truly dull implement on the 204.*

It's going to take a long time. A loooong time. A long, long, long time. Frankly, too long by anyone's standards, even just once.

The 204 all by itself *is not a sharpening system*. It is a *touch-up and edge maintenance system*, similar to a knife steel that comes in the knife block with the set of knives.

I'm not impressed.

So, here's hoping that the diamond hones will change the equation dramatically and enable the 204 to actually remove more than a _microscopic amount of metal_ in a half hour.

I'm sorry, but, what the heck? This just wasn't made clear in any of the reviews or discussions of the 204 that I read. And I can't believe that someone in this thread actually suggested that I didn't need the diamond hones; that the medium hones would suffice.

Not bloody likely.


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## Osprey_Guy

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Stainless steel, factory kitchen knives, especially the better ones such as your Henkels, tend to have a very high Rockwell hardness. They are inherently a ***** to sharpen (least of all re-bevel by hand). I've got 6 magnetic strips in my kitchen full of high-end stainless knives that I bought back before I started making my own. To this day I still have a heck of time sharpening most of them...and I've got a full-blown knife shop in my basement!

The Sharpmaker is great as far as I'm concerned...but as good as it is, with what you're trying to accomplish...you're still gonna have your work cut out for you. You're not just trying to sharpen your knives, you're essentially trying to re-bevel them...something I would never think of doing with just a sharpening system. As knifemakers, we're typically using a 72" belt grinder to do our bevels, and then we sharpen. While you can, in theory, create a new bevel with the Sharpmaker...trying to do it on those Henkels is not gonna be fun. (By contrast try doing a carbon steel knife...I think you'll find it much easier going...)


Dennis Greenbaum


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## fnmag

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

JS, pardon me but I'm laughing my a$$ off! I've followed this thread and got the same impression you got, that the Sharpmaker is the best thing since sliced bread. I've simply been scouting for a good deal before I pull the trigger. Therefore, I find your post extremely beneficial. Hmmm. Where does one get an EdgePro at? I'm sure someone will weigh in with a remedy or two for your plight. But it was so close to me being in your exact position that its comical. I could just see me getting my new Sharpmaker and spending a couple of hours of sweat and toil with the miracle machine only to find that the only difference was hands full of callouses and cuts. Please keep us posted on your progress or lack of it. Cheers.


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## iamerror

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

The Sharpmaker does seem to remove metal slowly, especially if it needs to be cleaned. Reprofiling some of the harder steels could take what seems like years. It is good for maintenance though, and easy to keep a consistent angle while sharpening. 

I got a DMT D8XX diamond stone for reprofiling. It removes metal very quickly. It should remove metal much quicker than the Spyderco diamond rods, even. It can scratch up your blade a lot too, though.

About cleaning the Sharpmaker rods, I also use Comet in warm water and it seems to work well. 

Did you check your angle while sharpening to see if you were hitting the edge instead of reprofiling it?


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## Owen

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Jim, just saying that's what I use, not that there's anything special about it. I use a scrub brush and Bon Ami for cleaning in both the bathrooms, and the kitchen, and my Sharpmaker lives in a kitchen drawer. I don't use a Brillo pad that much, and don't keep many around. 
I haven't tried the diamond hones, so can't comment on them. 



Osprey_Guy said:


> Stainless steel, factory kitchen knives, especially the better ones such as your Henkels, tend to have a very high Rockwell hardness.


Stainless steel factory kitchen knives are usually made of steels that won't even take a very high Rc. Some of the very high end ones that use premium steels and/or laminates are exceptions. 
I believe Henckels are usually 440C ~56-58Rc.


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## CostcoAAcells

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

js,
I've had my Sharpmaker 204 for a little over 2 years now. I use it to maintain the edges of my EDC carry and my kitchen knives. I also volunteer to sharpen the knives of family, friends, and co-workers in my free time. Knife sharpening is what I do to relax, and when it is done as a favor for others--it is something they can really appreciate because it seems very few people know how to do it anymore. I'm always learning, too. When I get other peoples knives to sharpen it's another chance to continue learning how to get better at it; and it's a chance to ruin other peoples knives, rather than my own. Thus, my service is free. 

After a year of owning the Sharpmaker, I decided to get the diamond rods. I was expecting the diamond to make quick work of any re-beveling. While it does make sharpening go faster, it still takes a long time. If you're thinking you'll be done in under 10 minutes with the diamond rods, you may be in for some disappointment. I was averaging an hour and a half per knife, when I was sharpening a set of really dull Henckels for a friend. For sure if I didn't have the diamond rods, it would have taken me a whole day per knife. I think the problem is that there is just too little surface area on the diamond rods. But having the diamond rods is still better than not having them.

More recently I've bought some DMT 8" Dia-Sharp stones. (extra-extra coarse, coarse, fine, very fine) I really didn't need to buy all those grits, but I had no idea what I was getting into. After having them for a few months I can say I've found them to be the perfect companion to the Sharpmaker. Here's some pics on how I use the DMT stones with the Sharpmaker. I learned these tricks from BF and KF.

Disclaimer: there are safer ways to sharpen a knife. The following methods defeat the safety feature designed into the Sharpmaker. If you attempt any of these methods, you are doing so at your own risk. 







Take the DMT stone and lay it flat against the Sharpmaker rod.





To prevent the DMT stone from sliding away from the rod it's resting on, wedge a Pink Pet eraser between the opposite rod and the DMT stone. You must prevent the DMT stone from sliding away from the rod it's resting on, otherwise the sharpening angle will change.





Pink Pet eraser wedged in tight. The eraser is also another very handy addition to the Sharpmaker. It can do really quick cleanup on the rods. When I want a more thorough cleaning at the sink, I'll use Barkeepers Friend scrubbing powder on a 3M Scotchbrite pad. It takes very little scrubbing effort with Barkeepers Friend.





Unfortunately, with this jury-rig, you still need one hand to hold the DMT stone to prevent it from falling over during use. Also, the DMT stone is heavy. You don't want it landing on your foot.





When I got my DMT stones, I also ordered the appropriate stone holder for them.





When using the DMT as a bench stone, place the stone into the holder and clamp it closed. The holder has a rubber base which prevents the stone from sliding all over the bench when freehand sharpening.





You can also use the DMT stone and stone holder with the Sharpmaker.





Just lay the DMT stone and holder against the rod and wedge it against the opposites rod with the Pink Pet eraser.





Eraser wedged in. This setup with the stone holder is more stable than without it. The stone holder is actually standing up on its two adjustment screws. The screws have rubber caps on the end, which act as feet that also help keep it from sliding on the Sharpmaker.





The rig stands tall and has a high center of gravity. When sharpening, one hand still needs to hold onto the DMT and holder to prevent it from falling over. 





As you've probably already guessed, you cannot do alternating strokes with these setups. You have to work one side of the blade at a time. I work one side until I raise a burr, then I spin the Sharpmaker around and work the other side until I raise a burr. I keep escalating through the different grit stones until I finish with the Sharpmaker rods.

Has the DMT stones made the process faster? Sort of. Instead of an hour and a half per knife with the diamond rods, it's just an hour per knife with the DMTs. I could probably get a decent edge in even less time but knife sharpening is something that I try to take my time to enjoy. I have noticed that I'm getting crisper looking bevels thanks to the DMTs. I usually don't quit sharpening until I achieve shaving sharp. I'm all out of arm hair, and have since moved onto leg hair for sharpness testing.

With all the money I've spent on my collection of DMT stones, I probably could have bought an Edgepro Apex by now. In hindsight all I really needed was the DMT extra-extra coarse and the DMT fine to round out my Sharpmaker kit.


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## Osprey_Guy

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Thinking it over I should not have been so quick with my global statement about "most" stainless kitchen knives having a high Rockwell. My statement about the hardness of stainless kitchen knives was based on my own, personal experience. With only a few exceptions my kitchen knives are all "commercial" or "professional" grade Chef's Choice, Sabatier, some lesser known French and German brands, and a couple of Japanese. 

There's a substantial difference in feel between sharpening a knife with a Rockwell of 55-58 vs something over 60. While I do not own a Rockwell tester I think I know when I'm trying to sharpen a very hard knife....and that's most of my kitchen knives. And I'll say it again, they are a ***** to sharpen! I purposely keep a carbon steel knife in my kitchen with a known rockwell of 55-57 so that I can have something that can be sharpened with relative ease with nothing more than a small portable setup with ceramic rods. One of my stainless Sabatier's seems to have a slightly lower hardness, as well as a Wusthof chef's knife. It's more than a little challenging to sharpen my Chef's Choice knives.


Dennis Greenbaum


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## guyg

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Sharpening is part science and part art. It is also alot of work. I use a Sharpmaker exclusively. I got the SM and the Diamond rods together. Reprofiling takes a long time.The two hardest knives I've done are the Buck Strider Mini and a MIssion MPU. Hours were involved.
It takes a bit to get a handle on the angle. You have to keep your hand straight.
As for cleaning, Comet and a sponge as stated are all that is needed.You'll get it..


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## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Osprey Guy,

Unfortunately, the Henkels knives are not really that hard on the Rockwell scale, BUT, if I'm not mistaken, I think there is a difference between a steels Rc number and how easy it takes an edge. In other words, it's not simply true that the lower the hardness number the easier it is to sharpen. High carbon non-stainless steel is harder than my Henkels knives steel, but it is easier to sharpen, if I remember correctly. Stainless steel is sure a PITA to machine, for example. It's stringy.

Anyway, point is that while you may not be entirely correct in saying that the Henkels are very hard (they're softer than the Chef's Choice knives, for example), you are probably correct in saying that they are HARD TO SHARPEN compared to some other steels.

Still . . . the 204 is supposed to be able to sharpen anything, even S30V or Cowry X. And I would bet any amount of money that the 204 would be just as ineffectual at re-profiling a straight carbon steel knife, even if it did take 20 percent less time or whatever.

fnmag,

My loss is your gain! My pain is your pleasure! (In a way). No offense taken at all. This is why we have these forums. This is why we post on such things and discuss knives and lights and sharpeners endlessly. When you care about your money and want to spend it wisely, you do your research, you take your time and give it some thought. This has allowed me to spend my money pretty well over the last four or five years. I like that! But this . . . this "situation" is, unfortunately, one of those situations that will inevitably happen no matter how well informed you try to be.

I bet the 204 is freaking great for those knife collectors who have about a hundred knives that maybe see one swipe against a sheet of paper a year, or maybe pop one arm-hair every month or something. Yeah, great. Whip out your already sharp folding knife, give it a few swipes on the 204, shave a few arm hairs, and feel great about the money well spent on the Spyderco Tri-Angle sharpener. Yippee.

Owen,

I was just asking if there is any reason why I wouldn't want to use a brillo pad for every cleaning of the hones.

CostcoAAcells,

If I wanted to go to that much trouble, I'd just continue to sharpen my knives by hand on my waterstone, but I appreciate your detailed post. (PM incoming, however).

Everyone,

I don't want to get into semantics and get lost in a pointless discussion over what's a "sharpening system" and what's something else, and what this or that means.

I don't care what you call it, but the Sharpmaker 204 has been reviewed and billed and discussed as something which will solve all your sharpening needs. Do a frigging google search on it and read the reviews. Read them, and see if there is any warning or disclaimer in them about how UNBELIEVABLY PAINFUL AND SLOW it is to remove any amount of metal with this system. I don't think you will find any such statement.

Edges will get nicks on them. And the width of the primary edge will keep increasing until it is too wide to sharpen easily. At such times, you must do some amount of "re-profiling" or whatever you want to call it. In fact the 204 manual recommeds you do this as a matter of course every fourth or fifth sharpening.

If your sharpening setup cannot do this in a reasonable amount of time, with a reasonable amount of effort, then *it is not a real, complete setup*. It may complement a real setup nicely, like a knife steel. It may be "great for touch-ups." It may be convenient as heck to setup and carry.

BUT AS A SHARPENING SYSTEM, IT'S A JOKE.

I could have taken off more metal with a frigging rock I found in the woods than with the 204.

I could have sharpened ALL MY KNIVES, by hand, with my japanese waterstone bench stone in the time it has taken me to not even finish re-profiling my single 8 inch chefs knife.

If you want to begin to imagine just how long it takes to remove metal with the 204, start imaging _hundreds and hundreds of strokes per side_, and not 20.

If you want to get the 204 to complement a real system, then it will be great for you. But if you've read the hype and the reviews and are imagining a knife-block full of super sharp knives and the joy of slicing that first onion in half without even trying, well, then *FORGET ABOUT IT*. Unless your knives are already quite sharp, the 204 will be worthless.


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## NoFair

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

The easiest way to reprofile with the Sharpmaker is to attach cheap diamond (DMT or other brand) stone to the rods with 2 elastics and go at it. 
The large coarse stones remove metal very fast and the angle is set by the rods on the SM. 

I do have a belt sander and only use it for large knives or very extensive alteration of blades (sabre to full flat grind for instance).

This is basically a simpler version of what Costco does.

Sverre

PS! if the angle on a knife is below 40 degrees inclusive the Sharpmaker will make it sharp very quickly. If the angle is larger you are reprofiling and that takes time.


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## js

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Yup. Well, I just re-read this entire thread, and there were warnings that the 204 was not practical for re-profiling. I remember that, but figured that the diamond hones would solve that. And also that "not practical" translated into an hour or two vs. 15 minutes. I really, really didn't understand that "not practical" or "masochistic" translated into 8 to 10 hours instead of 1 or 2 hours.

When you're talking that kind of time, a little extra hastle with setup and blade taping and stone flattening for the Apex is of no consequence. It's a drop in the bucket.

So, an update: I finally closed the edge on the 30 degree back bevel. I cleaned the hones, and switched to the 40 degree primary bevel. "Now," I thought, "now, I can see how the Sharpmaker is for just regular sharpening as opposed to re-profiling." So, I started in at the 20 degree blade angle. And, in short, it was just as frustrating and non-rewarding an experience as before.

I suppose my nice Japanese waterstone has spoiled me, but, gosh, I prefer sharpening stones *that actually remove metal, that actually cut, and that don't clogg up with metal when asked to remove even a small amount of it from the blade.*

I can imagine that the 204 will complement the Apex quite nicely, and could maybe take the place of the ceramic hone usually sold with the Apex kits.

But, I can't imagine that anyone owns the 204 and thinks that it is even close to adequate as a complete and self-sufficient sharpening setup or "system."

I've only just sharpened one knife, and I already deeply regret buying this thing. Not so much because it won't go nicely with the Apex, but because my wife now is going to give me a rash of crap about buying another sharpening setup, and I'll have to really fight for it and it will cause friction and trouble. This is why I like to *buy the right thing the very first time*.

What a disaster.

And I still haven't been able to get in touch with Mike at BestKnives.com. Does anyone know what the deal is? He's not answering phone calls, nor replying to emails.


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## cutlerylover

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Sorry to hear of your problem in not liking the sharpmaker...I guess its not for everyone...I bought one about a year ago and couldn't be more happy with it...then again I only use my knives for light work, then I touch them up every week or so on the sharpmaker so its perfect for me, I have no complaints...but thats just me...


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## pedalinbob

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

I have a Sharpmaker as well, and it makes my knives razor sharp. It is relatively easy to use.

But, you hit on a big issue: if a knife is extremely dull, this system is much less effective. I had a Vic Recruit which required about 30 minutes of work...surprising, considering the soft metal.

There is another issue: consistency. The Sharpmaker is not exactly a plug & play product. It takes practice, because you are sort of free-handing it--there is no absolute "guide" for the knife.
Further, this consistency required (keeping the blade perpendicular throughout the honing motion) becomes more difficult as you fatigue.
Of course, more practice will build stamina and muscle memory.

Generally, for my basic needs, it is a great product.
But, I would like to have the ability to more quickly bring an edge back to life, without spending a ton of cash. 
I thought the diamond hones would accomplish this...but, maybe not.

By the way, I have a cheapie Smith's sharpener, which has a coarse side and fine side. The fine side work surprisingly well to put a nice touch-up on a blade.
This is it:

http://www.elinemerchandising.com/S-CCKS.html


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## guyg

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Sorry for your troubles, I just finished sharpening 5 knives belonging to my father in law, my daughter and my son. Time involved, less than 1 hour.


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## Bob_G

*Re: Please help: Spyderco Sharpmaker or EdgePro Apex?*

Jim,

I'm so tempted to quote myself, but I won't  Sorry, I shouldn't have said that 

A few observations - I just caught up with this thread. I didn't re-read it all, but one of the "criticisms" of the EP is it's only good if you want picture perfect bevels and edges. You know, your basic back-handed compliment. Well, it's true, it does, and that's a great benefit I've learned, because it makes maintenance a breeze. The bevel/edge you create with the EP transforms the blade, there's a permanence to it that takes time to appreciate, so maintenance isn't only a breeze, the "maintenance period" is very long lasting.

The ceramic rod sold by EP is significantly finer than the white SM rod, so debatable whether they serve the same purpose. Think of the EP rod as a smooth steel that also takes a few molecules off and use accordingly.

I use SOS pads to clean the SM rods - you have to do it a lot, even if you sharpen a little 

Owen pointed out a good technique for incorporating the two back on page one - set your edges with the EP a little lower than the angles available with the SM, which makes touch-ups a no brainer. I'm thinking of doing this as I'm about ready to go over all my kitchen knives (I'm waiting for my one and only custom folder to be ready, so I'll use working on the kitchen knives as a refresher to keep me from screwing up the custom too badly.)

Be wary of small blades with thick spines on the EP. They say it doesn't change the angle much, but I don't believe it. Like most seemingly simple things, the details loom large, and to really use the EP, you have to get to the point where you're thinking for yourself, fudging things this way and that, to truly use it right. I'm still learning ...

Oh, it's not clear to me whether you've got the EP yet, but given your take on the SM, I'll go out on a limb here, and say that once you get the hang of it (happens quickly) the EP is actually a pleasure to use on nice big straight kitchen type knives. It's enjoyable in use, and satisfying in result.

Quick tip - if you get the bumpies (sticksion in the rod bushing) note that it's adjustable.


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## Mudd Magnet

I am new to knifes well good ones anyway's right now I have a crkt urban shark and a couple fixed blade knifes but I plan on buying some more good quality folders and a few more fixed blade knifes. I am looking to learn how to sharpen these knifes and what I need to sharpen them? I don't have the slightest clue how to get them sharp and how to maintain their sharpness one of my fixed blade's need's the edge complety redone and the tip is missing a 1/8" can this be ground out to make the tip right again my urban shark just need's to be sharpend to the way it came or better and I also have a few fillet knifes that could use a touch up any ideas I am sure each of these knifes are going to need a different tool and different method to get them sharp Thanks


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## macforsale

*Re: knife sharpening*

*


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## chmsam

*Re: knife sharpening*

There are lots of threads here on this topic (lots of knife guys hangout here) and if you do a search you'll find lots of suggested techniques and equipment. A lot depends on what use your knives have and how much work you want to put into sharpening, but also as to how sharp you really need a knife to be and that's a topic for a lot of threads all on it's own.


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## cal..45

*Re: knife sharpening*

hi,

personally I have used the spyderco triangle sharpmaker for the last couple years and made very good results with it. the only thing I can complain about, is that the tip of a knife gets pretty fast rounded if someone isn't carefully enough. 

right now I'm waiting for the lansky deluxe system which should arrive tommorow or on wednesday. with that system it will be a little more time consuming to sharpen knives, but also still preciser and without fear to round the tip. 

regardsless of the brand, with both systems you should be able to get and keep your tools sharp enough for shaving.



regards, holger


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## [email protected] Messenger

*Re: knife sharpening*

I'd like to second the spyderco sharpmaker, it's really simple to use and can get a knife scary sharp in a few strokes of the white stones (at least in my experience while sharpening a charge ti and several kitchen knives).


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## Sigman

Just merged 20 threads in reference to knife sharpening together. I'm sure there are more out there for your reading pleasure - but this should keep most of it together.


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## Mudd Magnet

Thanks sig man now I have a couple hour's reading ahead of me :laughing:

I had try'd to search on a couple ocasions but I could not really find much usefull info in one place it was all little bit's and pieces all over the place Thanks


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## Sigman

...can o' worms? Seriously, it' nice to have it all in one container!


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