# I got P60 module to work on 2x18500 cells



## etc (Nov 29, 2015)

Joke. I was told -- and was aware for the last 10 years that the P60 module that came with 6P could not handle the voltage from 2 lithium-ion cells, and yet I was dying to try anyway. I had that question in the back of my mind: What if? Well, here is the data for the record:

It only works for 1/5 second but what an amazing 1/5 second it was. I think it hit 400 lumens for that moment.

Not that I care -- P60 is an embarrassing module, fit to be thrown away. Ugly tint, short runtime, low lumens, burns out even when used properly...


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## scout24 (Nov 29, 2015)

:thinking: Not sure where to start...


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## Str8stroke (Nov 29, 2015)

scout24 said:


> :thinking: Not sure where to start...


lol
Not sure where it ended!


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## MBentz (Nov 29, 2015)

scout24 said:


> :thinking: Not sure where to start...



I'll start with long live the P60.


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## Illum (Nov 29, 2015)

I'm actually a big fan of the P60, on 5V it draws exactly 1.15A. Why is this nice? I use it to load USB power adapters to see whether they actually output as spec 

Sometimes they fail to live up to their specs. My ammeter will tell me:shrug:


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## Timothybil (Nov 30, 2015)

Clarify for me. Are we talking about the real, live, Surefire P60, 60 some lumen incandescent lamp module, or a generic LED dropin in the P60 size factor.

This is why I always try to refer to Surefire P60-P91 form factor lamp assemblies as D26, the true generic name for them (*D*iameter *26*mm).

If you really do want to try an incandescent lamp assembly with the two 18500 cells, there is always the Surefire P90 LA, as well as Lumens Factory sells a number of different 9 volt D26 incandescent modules that should work well. And of course, if you do want to switch to LED, Lumens Factory also has some very nice 3.6-13v D26 modules in Neutral White or 90+ CRI to choose from. I have some in my G2 and 6P, and really like them. The 90+ CRI one is especially nice, with a very good warm white color rendition.


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## etc (Nov 30, 2015)

Surefire P60

I will explore the Lumens Factory options.


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## flashlight chronic (Nov 30, 2015)

I was so excited to hear of this! My excitement ended in 1/5th of a second :ironic:


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## Minimoog (Nov 30, 2015)

I did similar years ago with a horrible yellow 1970's front bike light. It drank batteries and gave a horrible yellow light. As a final blaze of glory I hooked yo a 12 Volt supply. That 0.5 second of blazing white illumination is etched onto my memory! Gone in a blaze of glory.


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## scout24 (Nov 30, 2015)

Etc- Any SF P60's that are embarrasing, please feel free to ship over here.


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## bykfixer (Nov 30, 2015)

^^ well put sir.

At 6am I wanted to comment about murdering the once highly sought P60, but figured whatever was said would violate at least 13 policies here. 

2 cups of coffee later: 
Thanks for those wise words Scout24.


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## etc (Nov 30, 2015)

I had some hope I got stuck with a defective one and it would not flash. yeah, call it irrational or illogical.


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## cland72 (Nov 30, 2015)

etc said:


> Not that I care -- P60 is an embarrassing module, fit to be thrown away. Ugly tint, short runtime, low lumens, burns out even when used properly...



Burn the heretic. I have two lights (Z2/G2Z) that still sport a P60 and it is still just as effective today as it was 20 years ago.


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## Swedpat (Nov 30, 2015)

Because I have replaced the stock bulbs from my several Surefire lights with Malkoff and Sportac dropins I have several P60 and P90 dropins over. Compared to the modern LEDs many of the old incandescents may seem boring.
But actually the P90 in my Oveready bored 9P runned by 2x18500 isn't bad at all! Good throw and decent spill. And not to forget the supreme color rendition compared to LED. I am seriously interested in getting some really bright incandescent light in the future. 
I have long time thought about modifying Maglite 5 or 6D to very bright incan but I have been to lazy because it demands ordering specific parts from several different places...


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## Timothybil (Nov 30, 2015)

Swedpat said:


> Because I have replaced the stock bulbs from my several Surefire lights with Malkoff and Sportac dropins I have several P60 and P90 dropins over. Compared to the modern LEDs many of the old incandescents may seem boring.
> But actually the P90 in my Oveready bored 9P runned by 2x18500 isn't bad at all! Good throw and decent spill. And not to forget the supreme color rendition compared to LED. I am seriously interested in getting some really bright incandescent light in the future.
> I have long time thought about modifying Maglite 5 or 6D to very bright incan but I have been to lazy because it demands ordering specific parts from several different places...


Lumens Factory sells several higher power D26 drop ins for 9v lights, as well as one with lower output and extra long runtime. Check them out. I ran their HO-6 drop in in my G2 as soon as I found out about it, and loved it.


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## scout24 (Nov 30, 2015)

According to FlashlightGuide, the Surefire 6P Classic (Round body, non-lockout tailcap.) which was the predecessor to the still currently available Hex head 6P, was introduced in 1988. Making it, and it's primary lamp assembly, the P60, 27 years old. That's 189 in dog years, which is probably comparable to "Technology years"... For the P60 to have been produced for that long, relatively unchanged, speaks volumes about it's durability, quality, and usefulness. There is not one single output light, of any flavor, that will be ideal for everyone or every use. Longer running at similar lumen level? Sure. Brighter? Of course. Similar beautiful beam with both plenty of spill and throw at this output level? Show me, please. More useful? Well, talk to me after 27 years...  It was either WAY ahead of it's time then, still holds it's own nicely today, or IMHO both.


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## archimedes (Nov 30, 2015)

What're you all talking about this newfangled high output P60 lamp ?

I'm still using an MN01 in my E1 occasionally .... Fifteen lumens of glorious 100 CRI glowing wire [emoji317]


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## fivemega (Dec 1, 2015)

etc said:


> Not that I care -- P60 is an embarrassing module, fit to be thrown away. Ugly tint, short runtime, low lumens, burns out even when used properly...



*Are you trying to say, A member with almost 11 years of experience and 3400 post doesn't know that incand P60 will poof using pair of rechargeable 3.7 volts?

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?303697-Possible-to-run-P60-on-2x18650&highlight=

P60 was an excellent idea in design with super bright and extremely soft beam using pair of primary 123 cells and served military for more than 30 years.
I think your main reason of opening this thread is to put the incandescent lights down and trash them. Hopefully, I am wrong.*


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## etc (Dec 1, 2015)

It was kind of a joke. I even said so above. I had a P60 bulb laying around for a decade. Not used it once. chances are, not going to use it for another decade. So I decided to experiment a little. 
Not a huge loss to humanity.

Try to have some fun. 

Turn off <serious mode>


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## Swedpat (Dec 1, 2015)

Timothybil said:


> Lumens Factory sells several higher power D26 drop ins for 9v lights, as well as one with lower output and extra long runtime. Check them out. I ran their HO-6 drop in in my G2 as soon as I found out about it, and loved it.



Thanks,

Now I remember I have visited that website earlier and discussed about these dropins. E0-9 is attractive. With claimed 380lm it should be noticable brighter than Surefire P90? If this module drains the batteries faster as well I could still get some decent runtime with the extender and using 2x18650s?


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## bykfixer (Dec 1, 2015)

My first Malkoff was to mimic the P60.

A police officer daylight blinded me with his 6P incan. It was a concrete parking lot in the middle of a summer day. 
I made the mistake of asking him "is it bright?" lol


I bought a 6P that day. And being that I wanted more than an hour runtime I set out to find a drop in. Turns out the M61WLL was the way to go. 

An incandecent bulb that can blind you from 5' in the daytime is an amazing invention.


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## Timothybil (Dec 1, 2015)

Swedpat said:


> Thanks,
> 
> Now I remember I have visited that website earlier and discussed about these dropins. E0-9 is attractive. With claimed 380lm it should be noticable brighter than Surefire P90? If this module drains the batteries faster as well I could still get some decent runtime with the extender and using 2x18650s?


The Surefire P90 is quoted at 100 lumens and hour run time. The P91 is 200 lumens at 20 minutes. The Lumens Factory SR-9 is 200 lumens for an hour, and the EO-9 is 380 lumens for 35 minutes. There is not much difference between the EO-9 and the HO-9, since it does 320 lumens for 40 minutes. Of course if you really want some run time, the ES-9 does 150 lumens for 80 minutes. Have fun deciding. Heck, get one of each so you have one for whichever mood strikes you.


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## fivemega (Dec 1, 2015)

Timothybil said:


> The Surefire P90 is quoted at 100 lumens and hour run time. The P91 is 200 lumens at 20 minutes. The Lumens Factory SR-9 is 200 lumens for an hour, and the EO-9 is 380 lumens for 35 minutes. There is not much difference between the EO-9 and the HO-9, since it does 320 lumens for 40 minutes. Of course if you really want some run time, the ES-9 does 150 lumens for 80 minutes. Have fun deciding. Heck, get one of each so you have one for whichever mood strikes you.


*You can not compare lumens of different companies even they use similar power.
Some companies measure lumens output at first 5 minutes of fully recharged batteries, some measure from 5 minutes to 20% of remaining charge then average it. Some companies measure while powered by voltage controlled power supply. Do you know how the mentioned companies do? Unfortunately, they don't tell us.
Lumen output depends on designed voltage, powered voltage, bulb life, type of gas filled and....
A Xenon Carley 1499 is rated at 7.2 volts and works well with pair of protected 18650 also pulls about 1.85 Amps. Average expected life is 10 hours with 385 lumens of output.
A halogen Surefire P91 is rated at 6.8 volts and overdrives with pair of protected 18650 also pulls about 2.4 Amps. Average expected life is about 8 hours with over 220 lumens.
Do you think method of lumen measuring from both companies are exactly same?*


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## Stress_Test (Dec 1, 2015)

This made me think of a college project I had done in the past. The project involved using a little 3-volt DC motor as a power source. It wasn't but an inch long maybe; had a little gear on the output shaft.

After the project was done, I decided to see what water cooling could do to prolong the life of the motor when massively over powered (I think I got this idea from an RC modeler tip to "break in" an electric motor under water).

I submerged the motor in a gallon bucket of water, and hooked the wires up to a 12 volt battery (3V motor remember!).

There was a brilliant blue glow from the motor and the water churned as the motor spun like crazy. It actually lived for about 5 to 10 seconds if I remember right. I figured it would've been one or two at most.

Wonder if you could submerge a bulb in water before lighting it to make it live longer under over-voltage conditions? I have heard that if water hits a hot bulb it will shatter, but maybe it wouldn't if the bulb went in the water first and there was no temperature shock to the glass. 

No way am I going to try that with one of my precious P60 modules though!!


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## Timothybil (Dec 1, 2015)

Fivemega, having a bad day, are we? There is no need to over emphasize your response to my legitimate post. After eight years on CPF, I am perfectly aware that not all manufacturers measure lumens the same way. As a mater of fact, if I had to guess, I would say that Lumens Factory's ratings are probably bulb lumens, and not OTF lumens, since as a drop in they have no control over and no idea what kind of losses they will face with whatever lens they are paired with. Invoking the 80% rule doesn't change the nature of what I was trying to present. Lumens Factory produces several different incan drop ins providing a range of outputs and run times. (And no, I don't know if they measure run time the same way Surefire does.) What I do assume is that they are internally consistent in their measurements so that valid comparisons can be made amongst them. From personal experience comparing the Surefire P60 against a Lumens Factory HO-6, even invoking the 80% rule, the HO-6 was appreciably brighter in the same host.

PS: I also noticed that Surefire rates their G2 using the P60 LA at 65 lumens, and also rates the bare P60 LA at 65 lumens as well. Which one is correct?


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## fivemega (Dec 1, 2015)

Timothybil said:


> Fivemega, having a bad day, are we?


*Sorry, I did not mean to offend or anything. I just tried to share my experiences with everybody else who may read this thread.*



Timothybil said:


> PS: I also noticed that Surefire rates their G2 using the P60 LA at 65 lumens, and also rates the bare P60 LA at 65 lumens as well. Which one is correct?


*As long as they both run in same or similar condition, both claims are true and valid.*


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## etc (Dec 2, 2015)

* EO-9 is 380 lumens for 35 minutes *

that makes perfect sense. I thought I had a P90 module in my FiveMega 2x18500 body, with some cheap Ultrafire protected cells, and was amazed that the runtime *seemed* shorter than I am used to (I don't run it on a regular basis and actually haven't checked in maybe 5 years).


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## leon2245 (Dec 2, 2015)

Timothybil said:


> *Fivemega, having a bad day, are we? There is no need to over emphasize your r*esponse to my legitimate post. After eight years on CPF, I am perfectly aware that not all manufacturers measure lumens the same way. As a mater of fact, if I had to guess, I would say that Lumens Factory's ratings are probably bulb lumens, and not OTF lumens, since as a drop in they have no control over and no idea what kind of losses they will face with whatever lens they are paired with. Invoking the 80% rule doesn't change the nature of what I was trying to present. Lumens Factory produces several different incan drop ins providing a range of outputs and run times. (And no, I don't know if they measure run time the same way Surefire does.) What I do assume is that they are internally consistent in their measurements so that valid comparisons can be made amongst them. From personal experience comparing the Surefire P60 against a Lumens Factory HO-6, even invoking the 80% rule, the HO-6 was appreciably brighter in the same host.
> 
> PS: I also noticed that Surefire rates their G2 using the P60 LA at 65 lumens, and also rates the bare P60 LA at 65 lumens as well. Which one is correct?




Lol guessing it was just his use of different color & bold text that made you feel like that?


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## Swedpat (Dec 3, 2015)

It feels too good to be true if EO-9 puts out much higher brightness and that for even longer time compared to P91.
I guess Surefire claims more moderate numbers and the difference is not as big in practise. But I may order a bunch of EO-9 to know!


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## scout24 (Dec 3, 2015)

Over the years, I've found fivemega's posts to be passionate, knowledgeable, and no nonsense. What you see is what you get. I'm certain there is no offense meant, just frank presentation and sharing of information. :thumbsup:


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## lightlover (Dec 3, 2015)

scout24 said:


> Over the years, I've found fivemega's posts to be passionate, knowledgeable, and no nonsense. ............. I'm certain there is no offense meant, ...



+1 - always informative & helpful.


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## DellSuperman (Dec 3, 2015)

lightlover said:


> +1 - always informative & helpful.


+1 
And as far as i remember, his post are always colored..


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## bykfixer (Dec 3, 2015)

I worked for an engineer who sent all emails in bold red font 16....all caps.... 
You'd see *MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!* and know it was all good. 
It was when he sent them in blue was when you needed to worry. 

If he grunted your last name..."grrr, smith, get your caracass over here"...that was a good thing. But when you heard "johnnie, would you please step in my office?"...that was when he'd get nuclear on ya.


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## DRoc (Dec 18, 2015)

I love SF P60's...was my first quality light, still use them to this day. I don't care if I have to use primaries. I think I have about 150 stock P60 incan dropins in reserve...


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## swampgator (Dec 26, 2015)

scout24 said:


> Over the years, I've found fivemega's posts to be passionate, knowledgeable, and no nonsense. What you see is what you get. I'm certain there is no offense meant, just frank presentation and sharing of information. :thumbsup:


I've had some conversations with him via PM and he was more than helpful and very polite in answering some basic questions regarding his old battery holders. 

I see him as one of the last of the old school CPF posters still around.


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## Juggernaut (Dec 28, 2015)

Like Fiemega said, Don’t forget LF exaggerate their lumens a little bit while SF’s numbers where always a bit conservative. That said the EO –series are pretty impressive I own the EO-9 and it is pretty dang bright, their IMR bulbs though… still impressive to this day. 



Stress_Test said:


> Wonder if you could submerge a bulb in water before lighting it to make it live longer under over-voltage conditions? I have heard that if water hits a hot bulb it will shatter, but maybe it wouldn't if the bulb went in the water first and there was no temperature shock to the glass. No way am I going to try that with one of my precious P60 modules though!!



I’d think not, the reason this works is because the water sucks the heat out of the motor cooling it quickly, it’s not the glass that fails (typically) when a hotwire incan blows; it’s the filament. The filament is more or less as insulated as possible from the water in this case, with a big gap of hi pressure gas between the two, the super thin tungsten supports also aren’t going to let too much heat get sucked down them. In fact the slower the filament loses heat the more efficient it usually is. There is even some bulbs that have built in shields to reflect spent IR into the filament for extra heating. Compile this knowledge with the fact when you blow a bulb it’s essentially in an instant and you’re not going to see any improvement in water. This was always a benefit of the Incan over the LED when going for max power, heat generated would usually not harm the bulb only the hands and electronics of the flashlight lol. (note some bulbs like projector bulbs use fans to keep cool, but in a flashlights usage hotwired even harder, they are more likely to have a filament failure than an envelope failure, especially with their now extremely short lives.


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## marinemaster (Dec 31, 2015)

All this made me check my 6P light...what do you know...i got a new P60 i will never use, if anyone interested let me know, reasonable..., hope not breaking rule.


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## Illum (Jan 2, 2016)

Stress_Test said:


> Wonder if you could submerge a bulb in water before lighting it to make it live longer under over-voltage conditions? I have heard that if water hits a hot bulb it will shatter, but maybe it wouldn't if the bulb went in the water first and there was no temperature shock to the glass.
> 
> No way am I going to try that with one of my precious P60 modules though!!




Won't work, lamps are designed to operate at a certain temperature. As the filament heats up, tungsten atoms will begin to migrate from the hot part of the lamp to the cooler edges, that is, the envelope. When the temperature hits a design level, the inert gases [combination of krypton, xenon, various halogens] reacts with the tungsten to form tungsten halide, which frees the Tungsten from the wall of the lamp and migrates back to the filament, where it reacts at the filament where temperatures approximating 2500C breaking down tungsten and halogen. The tungsten redeposits onto the colder portions of the filament, and the halogen is freed to continue the cycle.
If you cool the envelope, you'll end up shattering the glass as it tries to compensate for the high temperature differential. Remember, air is an awesome insulator when its confined to a small volume, in the case of the geometric volume occupying the reflector and around the lamp envelope. And even if the glass survives, the bulb just gets dimmer and dimmer until the glass is entirely opaque on the inside. Somewhere along the way somewhere on the filament loses too many atoms and the circuit opens. Ever wonder why a 60W incandescent lamp rated for 5000 Hours only last about 2000 Hours when its dimmed to nightlight mode? Same concept


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## Greenbean (Jan 2, 2016)

The beauty now of the base 6P with that P60 in it is to me that you can get them quite easily in the 30 dollar range on Amazon Prime sometimes and family loves them as good strong gifts, Lol...

Gotta get the younger cousins into flashlights somehow. 

I still keep one in them in my truck because if the CR123s ability to take the cold and heat well and just sit there ready to be used. 
Now it does sit next to a yellow G2 with an M60 Elzetta flood module. Hahaha

Different needs different lights!


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