# Finally, making the jump to CAD flashlight design ...



## wquiles (Jul 27, 2010)

As you have probably seen in my project posts (those with the "few" pictures), I have been doing mods/projects exclusively on paper for years. However, I told myself that at some point I had to make the jump to CAD to make things easier on me, since not everything on my paper design worked out exactly like I wanted : lets say that there was some "fine adjustments" of the design while I was actually making chips on the lathe/mill 

This time I am making a complete, from scratch, new head for a custom Barbo diving light, and since I had to make sure the new head worked in the existing host and lens, and the new driver I wanted to use, I "had" to do the CAD design since I had to make sure all of the details worked out right. I did not wanted to start cutting metal and then figure out it was not going to work out!

I bought Alibre Design last year based on a post by my good buddy in Pablo. Alibre was running one of their frequent specials, so I got the $99 package (V11). I then recently upgraded to version 12.1 (another $99), so I have the latest, most stable version. I bough an electronic "book" on using Alibre, and I have been for the last couple of weeks learning how to use the software.

I am not an expert, but I can definitely start making some basic parts OK. Here is the current design for the new head. In my host OS (Ubuntu 10.x) it opens up as a normal PDF file. But on Windoze operating systems, with the latest reader, if you open the file and then "click to activate", it will let you view/move the 3D version of the image - pretty cool 

Head_v1_a2.pdf


Here is just a JPG export:








The final/actual head might look a little different, depending on whether I do grooves or not, or what bevel angles I pick, etc.. I guess there will always be some "amount" of fine tuning at the "shop" :devil:


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## 350xfire (Jul 27, 2010)

Nice job Will... CAD is one of those things that is on my list as well. I bought an old version of Turbocad on ebay for $20 and started to learn, but there is so much to it and so little time!!!


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## wquiles (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks man. Doing CAD is not hard, and it is very re-warding to "see" how things will look like in 3D. Taking the time to sit down and learn a little bit at a time what takes effort 

I don't have the right size Al on stock, so I ordered some through Ebay today - once again they had the best price of all the on-line sources I checked. I already got confirmation that it got shipped, so hopefully I will be able to start cutting metal this coming week


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## 350xfire (Jul 27, 2010)

wquiles said:


> Thanks man. Doing CAD is not hard, and it is very re-warding to "see" how things will look like in 3D. Taking the time to sit down and learn a little bit at a time what takes effort
> 
> I don't have the right size Al on stock, so I ordered some through Ebay today - once again they had the best price of all the on-line sources I checked. I already got confirmation that it got shipped, so hopefully I will be able to start cutting metal this coming week


 
Yeap, I buy most of my metal on ebay... By the time I drive an hour to get it it's much cheaper to just wait 3 days!


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## Mick (Jul 27, 2010)

I have been using Alibre for years and have learned to love it. You will find your mistakes will be reduced the more you use it. Here is my latest helmet light using a SST90 and TaskLED H6Flex driver. The dirver is in the battery pack on the back of the helmet. The cut-away really lets you see how things fit together.


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## wquiles (Jul 27, 2010)

Mick said:


> I have been using Alibre for years and have learned to love it. You will find your mistakes will be reduced the more you use it. Here is my latest helmet light using a SST90 and TaskLED H6Flex driver. The dirver is in the battery pack on the back of the helmet. The cut-away really lets you see how things fit together.


Mick, that looks AWESOME. I still have a lot to finish on the tutorial/book that I bought, including combining various parts into assemblies, so it is awesome to see somebody else use Alibre as well :twothumbs


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## Mick (Jul 27, 2010)

Will, Make sure you use the Alibre forum. There are some real experts on there and very helpful. I'm just a old retired EE. :ironic:


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## PEU (Jul 27, 2010)

When I was starting with SolidWorks I relied a lot on www.eng-tips.com forum **, not sure if they have alibre forum, but the SW guys there sure know the software.

I think your path should be followed by anyone using 3DCAD, I mean, first know what a machine can do, and then learn to model using software.
When the path is the opposite its a headache for the machinist, because not all things virtual can be done, or be done at a reasonable cost in metal.

Good Luck!!


Pablo

** Just checked before submiting this post, alibre subforum its pretty dead


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## precisionworks (Jul 27, 2010)

> not all things virtual can be done, or be done at a reasonable cost in metal.


Definition of mechanical engineer ... person who designs a part that is impossible to machine 

"But it looked so easy on the CAD drawing".


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## sosemot728 (Jul 27, 2010)

Good to hear 

Going from this





To this, takes the guesswork out and keeps the stress levels down!





CAD is the way forward! I use Solidworks 2010. But I am familiar with Alibre and would would love to do a collaborative project, if you are interested?


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## gadget_lover (Jul 28, 2010)

> In my host OS (Ubuntu 10.x) it opens up as a normal PDF file. But on Windoze operating systems, with the latest reader, if you open the file and then "click to activate", it will let you view/move the 3D version of the image - pretty cool



If you have the adobe reader installed, you can do the 3d thing from linux too. 


BTW, nice work Will.

Daniel


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## wquiles (Jul 28, 2010)

Mick said:


> Will, Make sure you use the Alibre forum. There are some real experts on there and very helpful. I'm just a old retired EE. :ironic:


Thank you. I have visited the forum a little and there seems to be good knowledge there, even if the forum is not active as much as others.

Your design is very inspiring as to what I hope to be able to do as I learn more about Alibre. And by the way, I am a EE as well - small world :thumbsup:




PEU said:


> I think your path should be followed by anyone using 3DCAD, I mean, first know what a machine can do, and then learn to model using software.
> When the path is the opposite its a headache for the machinist, because not all things virtual can be done, or be done at a reasonable cost in metal.
> 
> Good Luck!!


Thanks Pablo. I owe Alibre to your heads up about it. So far I like Alibre a lot.

And it is funny you mention the path. While making the design in Alibre for this head I was constantly thinking how I can cut each feature, and what would be the most logical order of cutting, and visualize in my head what tool that I have could cut each feature, etc.. So yes, absolutely agree with you 100% - best to start doing some machining work and then start doing CAD 




precisionworks said:


> Definition of mechanical engineer ... person who designs a part that is impossible to machine
> 
> "But it looked so easy on the CAD drawing".


Now that I started playing with CAD, I can clearly see the problem or "disconnect" between the design and what can actually be cut. It probably be best if mechanical engineers were "required" 1-2 semesters of "shop class", or something similar, taught by an experienced machinist, where they can learn how to do basic machining operations as a normal part of their curriculum. Just my 2 cents.




matthewm said:


> Good to hear
> 
> CAD is the way forward! I use Solidworks 2010. But I am familiar with Alibre and would would love to do a collaborative project, if you are interested?


Sounds like a good idea, but not before I get more experience and finish my book/tutorial - still much to learn before I can feel I could contribute to a more complex design.




gadget_lover said:


> If you have the adobe reader installed, you can do the 3d thing from linux too.
> 
> 
> BTW, nice work Will.
> ...


Thank you Daniel. And I followed your advice and found the Adobe reader and now I can also see the active version of the design natively in my Ubuntu workstation :thumbsup:


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## unterhausen (Jul 28, 2010)

I wish I could get solidworks for a reasonable price. I figure I would make my money back, but $4-8k is hard to justify without any customers. Anyone made the jump from SW to Alibre?


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## HarryN (Jul 29, 2010)

While we are on the CAD s/w discussion, I also do my drawings on "paper", but instead of "real paper", I tend to use the draw functions of excel, so a change is needed of course.

One thing I ran into when I hired someone to do a 3D cad drawing for me was that many of the packages could not do some of the more complex contours. For example, imagine a part: 
- 100 mm tall
- sort of like a figure 8 shape cross sectioned "cylinder"
- make the "fat parts of the 8" 50mm and the "crossing point" 10mm

Now, try rounding out the edge of that "8" shape, but vary the radius of rounding as you go around that edge. 

Two years ago, this took an extremely long time to do with the package he had, but a newer version allowed this "blending" automatically. Before I would be willing to invest the time of learning a CAD package, it would have to be able to draw that example part easily.

Anyway - nice progress.


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## wquiles (Jul 29, 2010)

unterhausen said:


> I wish I could get solidworks for a reasonable price. I figure I would make my money back, but $4-8k is hard to justify without any customers. Anyone made the jump from SW to Alibre?



From searching here in the forum it seems that SW is in fact "the" package to get. However, like you, I also found the price prohibitive for my small business. When Pablo linked the Alibre special, that was all of the incentive I needed to try Alibre - so far no regrets, and I look forward to learn more. Hopefully one day I will be able to do more complex designs as the one Mick posted above :thumbsup:


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## unterhausen (Jul 29, 2010)

I find it annoying to switch between programs. For example, I did a significant amount of work with ProE after I became proficient at SW, and ProE always made me feel like I was working around one annoyance or another.


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## sosemot728 (Jul 30, 2010)

unterhausen said:


> I find it annoying to switch between programs. For example, I did a significant amount of work with ProE after I became proficient at SW, and ProE always made me feel like I was working around one annoyance or another.



I did the opposite as you. Originally I started with Pro/E (also CATIA), became proficient and then moved onto SW. I found SW infinitely more intuitive and flexible. Moving to SW made me realize how backwards and convoluted Pro/E interface is.

But I don't really want to start a CAD war


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## unterhausen (Jul 30, 2010)

matthewm said:


> But I don't really want to start a CAD war


sounds like we agree with each other. We decided to use ProE because the license included CAM. So when I tried to use the ProE cam, I couldn't figure it out. Then I took the solid model to the machinist and he imported it into Mastercam in about 5 seconds so all the time I wasted on the CAM program was totally pointless in the first place.


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Jul 31, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Definition of mechanical engineer ... person who designs a part that is impossible to machine
> 
> "But it looked so easy on the CAD drawing".



I run a press brake at my work, and if I had a dollar for every part that couldn't be bent because the mechanical engineer had no idea what the right way to do it was, I'd double my pay. 

Luckily with a bit of persuasion I can get our current ME to fix it. Most of the time...



wquiles said:


> *snip*
> I bought Alibre Design last year based on a post by my good buddy in Pablo. Alibre was running one of their frequent specials, so I got the $99 package (V11). I then recently upgraded to version 12.1 (another $99), so I have the latest, most stable version. I bough an electronic "book" on using Alibre, and I have been for the last couple of weeks learning how to use the software.
> 
> I am not an expert, but I can definitely start making some basic parts OK. Here is the current design for the new head. In my host OS (Ubuntu 10.x) it opens up as a normal PDF file. But on Windoze operating systems, with the latest reader, if you open the file and then "click to activate", it will let you view/move the 3D version of the image - pretty cool
> ...



I wasn't aware Alibre had a Linux native version. I couldn't find it on their website, could you provide a link?



PEU said:


> I think your path should be followed by anyone using 3DCAD, I mean, first know what a machine can do, and then learn to model using software.
> When the path is the opposite its a headache for the machinist, because not all things virtual can be done, or be done at a reasonable cost in metal.
> 
> Good Luck!!



I wish more people would follow this path, and not just with CAD. With every factory job I've had, 3/4 of the engineers knew less about their assigned machines than the lowest level operators running them. 1-2 months of them running the machines would have resulted in a 90% reduction in downtime 



wquiles said:


> And by the way, I am a EE as well - small world :thumbsup:



What's an EE? Electrical Engineer?



> Now that I started playing with CAD, I can clearly see the problem or "disconnect" between the design and what can actually be cut. It probably be best if mechanical engineers were "required" 1-2 semesters of "shop class", or something similar, taught by an experienced machinist, where they can learn how to do basic machining operations as a normal part of their curriculum. Just my 2 cents.



:twothumbs


I just purchased VariCAD myself. My main reason for buying this is that it's got 2D/3D modeling, and it has a Linux native version that's updated regularly. As far as I've been able to find it's the only reasonably-priced Linux native software with this level of capability.


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## wquiles (Jul 31, 2010)

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> I wasn't aware Alibre had a Linux native version. I couldn't find it on their website, could you provide a link?


They don't. I run Alibre on my windoze 7 laptop 




Tekno_Cowboy said:


> What's an EE? Electrical Engineer?


Yes, short for Electrical Engineer.



Tekno_Cowboy said:


> I just purchased VariCAD myself. My main reason for buying this is that it's got 2D/3D modeling, and it has a Linux native version that's updated regularly. As far as I've been able to find it's the only reasonably-priced Linux native software with this level of capability.


Awesome!. You need to show you us some of the projects once you get more familiar with it :thumbsup:


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Jul 31, 2010)

I figured as much with the Windows end of it.

How's this for a project I'm working on now. (with lots of advice from a seasoned tool and die maker)







I still need to figure out the 3D model threads though


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## wquiles (Jul 31, 2010)

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> I still need to figure out the 3D model threads though



I have not gotten to do the threads yet on Alibre, but the documentation on Alibre states that real threads are very, very intensive on the CPU. I look forward to learning to do that as well


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Jul 31, 2010)

I tried the thread cutting tool in VariCAD over lunch, and I found that VariCAD locks up for me when I try to use it  I'm sure this is just a minor glitch, but I'll have to wait til Monday to get some support on it.

I imagine real threads would be very cpu intensive, but what I've seen most cad programs do is mark the proper diameters and sometimes draw a line in a spiral around your part.


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## PEU (Jul 31, 2010)

wquiles said:


> I have not gotten to do the threads yet on Alibre, but the documentation on Alibre states that real threads are very, very intensive on the CPU. I look forward to learning to do that as well



Visually doing the threads in your model is a waste of CPU and time, just use cosmetic threads unless you want to model a custom thread shape, this is SW lingo, what it means is you just draw the inner depth of cut and the length of the thread and thats it, you know there is a thread there 

Pablo


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## wquiles (Jul 31, 2010)

PEU said:


> ... just use cosmetic threads unless you want to model a custom thread shape, this is SW lingo, what it means is you just draw the inner depth of cut and the length of the thread and thats it, you know there is a thread there ...



Pretty much verbatim of what the Alibre documentation says about "real" threads - I guess I will do just that


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## Mick (Jul 31, 2010)

I never do threads, just a call-out. I make the external surface the thread max diameter and the internal surface the thread min diameter. When I do a assembly the CAD shows a interference but it is allowed and does not cause any problems. And threads are VERY bandwidth intensive.


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## gadget_lover (Aug 1, 2010)

PEU said:


> Visually doing the threads in your model is a waste of CPU and time, just use cosmetic threads unless you want to model a custom thread shape, this is SW lingo, what it means is you just draw the inner depth of cut and the length of the thread and thats it, you know there is a thread there
> 
> Pablo



And yet....

The idea of CAD is to model the real world item so that there are no surprises. If you draw the inner depth of cut and later decide to change the thread size, you may find the part is now too thin if you forget to change that depth of cut. If you model the threads it should recalculate that for you, right?

That's also assuming that you are properly calculating the DOC. 

With modern machines, I don't see a lot of problems with wasting a few CPU cycles. A multi core processor running at several gigahertz should not be bogged down too badly. 

Daniel


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## Mettee (Aug 1, 2010)

I have been teaching myself solid works over the past almost a year...I applaud your efforts Will. Some serious headaches have been dealt out to me  I look forward to seeing your renderings.


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## wquiles (Aug 2, 2010)

Mettee said:


> I have been teaching myself solid works over the past almost a year...I applaud your efforts Will. Some serious headaches have been dealt out to me  I look forward to seeing your renderings.



Thanks. The learning curve is great due to the many features/capabilities, plus for many of the 2D/3D forms there is usually more than one way to get it done. Right now as I am getting started I use the revolve command more often, since that is how a lathe could cut the cylindrical shape I am using. I just have to keep working at it and keep learning a little bit more at a time.


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## Hack On Wheels (Aug 4, 2010)

wquiles said:


> Now that I started playing with CAD, I can clearly see the problem or "disconnect" between the design and what can actually be cut. It probably be best if mechanical engineers were "required" 1-2 semesters of "shop class", or something similar, taught by an experienced machinist, where they can learn how to do basic machining operations as a normal part of their curriculum. Just my 2 cents.



As part of my ME courses, we did an intro to machining right off the start. It was good fun and has helped me when designing parts for student projects. However, I still have to frequently re-design parts to make them cheaper/faster to make. A full semester or two would certainly have helped with that, but either way these things end up being learned by trial and error. 

In my opinion, the most important thing is for MEs to learn through project courses and working on teams with more experienced students where they can get practical experience in design and machining... before they graduate from university.

Back on subject... my experience is with Solidworks; I'm not sure how Alibre works, but when specifying constraints in SW there is too much freedom to move on without fully constraining. This can cause major headaches further down the road if you need to change your design at all. That's one of the hardest things for me, making sure I take the time to do everything right the first time and not let my excitement pull me ahead of where I should be.


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## unterhausen (Aug 4, 2010)

Hack On Wheels said:


> Back on subject... my experience is with Solidworks; I'm not sure how Alibre works, but when specifying constraints in SW there is too much freedom to move on without fully constraining. This can cause major headaches further down the road if you need to change your design at all.


When I first learned SW, they required everything to be fully constrained and dimensioned before you could take a sketch to a solid. It was a flaming pain. However, I was just thinking about this the other day, and it is a little scary that you could be under-defined. In fact, I was making a change to a part just today, and the sketch went all wonky when I increased a dimension by 5%.


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## KC2IXE (Aug 4, 2010)

I made the mistake of buying bobcad/cam up at eastec - it works, BUT I don't like it, and the HUGE one, you can't do dim'd drawings - real drawings

Does Alibre do that? I'd actually throw away my Bobcad to get that - but then, how do we do CAM with Aibre?


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## unterhausen (Aug 6, 2010)

Alibre has cam, but it looks like you're talking $1500. I say "looks like" because their website doesn't render properly on my browser and the price is cut off. Not too impressive for a software company


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## wquiles (Aug 6, 2010)

In Mozilla Firefox (under Ubuntu 10.x), it reads fine:

Alibre CAM Standard = $1000

Alibre CAM Professional = $2000

Alibre CAM Expert = $4000


In my version of Alibre Expert they do "bundle" a basic version of their Alibre CAM, but based on the comparison chart, it looks like you would need at least Alibre Standard ($1000) to get what I would consider minimum CAM support (like threading, Engraving, etc.).


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## KC2IXE (Aug 6, 2010)

They run regular sales (one ended on the 31st), but from what I gather, their CAM is so-so

Years ago, I Solidedge (NOT Solidworks) had a version called Origin - it was good for ONE part - I loved it. I looked - I tried Alibre 11.x a year or so back - didn't like it that much - with Solidedge, it just clicked, but man, the prices for THAT


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## unterhausen (Aug 6, 2010)

tell me what it says on this page. Prices look better than yours. Page didn't render properly, ubuntu 10.4, chrome or firefox

I just realized I could put the packages in my basket, and the price for Design Expert is $800 on sale. The way I read it, that includes 3 axis CAM. Not too bad if it works at all.




wquiles said:


> In Mozilla Firefox (under Ubuntu 10.x), it reads fine:
> 
> Alibre CAM Standard = $1000
> 
> ...


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## wquiles (Aug 6, 2010)

unterhausen said:


> tell me what it says on this page. Prices look better than yours. Page didn't render properly, ubuntu 10.4, chrome or firefox
> 
> I just realized I could put the packages in my basket, and the price for Design Expert is $800 on sale. The way I read it, that includes 3 axis CAM. Not too bad if it works at all.



AD Standard + Maintenance = $398
AD Pro + Maintenance = $948
AD Expert + Maintenance = $1498

Note: The price of AD Expert for $800 is not bad at all.

The CAM that comes with AD Expert is really limited:
http://www.alibre.com/products/ac_compare.asp


I did not get Alibre for the CAM, so the small part that is bundled with my AD Expert is of no use to me for now.

Will


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## unterhausen (Aug 7, 2010)

ok, you're right, it's nearly pointless. I could probably code most of that in g-code and have the ability to machine a hole to boot


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## mototraxtech (Aug 7, 2010)

Hmm interesting. I actually like pro/E a bit more than solidworks. Let me explain!

I started learning CAD with a free version of cocreate software back when I was in my second year of high school as in was nice and easy to use. I then learned that is was $60,000 a copy and went to a new program. That program happened to be VariCad as it was cheap and had a lot of features. I think for the money you get alot with varicad and in is simple to use. Also the exports and imports seem to work well. I then realized that I needed an upgrade because I was getting around 200+ parts in my design and so started looking again. I then went to pro/e. But pro/E does not have near the learning support as solidworks and shy of learning to do the basics I found it very difficult to use. I then switched to solidworks. I found it much easier to learn and I really like the weldments feature although the actual welding tool is uterly useless. It also has a very windows like interface(it actually uses windows gui) which means its really easy to pick up on if you have ever run a windows program. But after learning solidworks I found that once I got large assems and using skeleton top down design I had problems with it loading and it was very glitchy and I swear crashed two times a day. I heard the crashing could be fixed with the right video card but I wasn't going to pay $3,000 for a card that is exactly the same as a $300 card with an added circuit to verify it was the card it was. So I did some more searching and after reading a lot about it Pro/E sounded good as I had learned solidworks and both programs our based off of the same parametric design so many of the features are the same or very close. Being a student I was also able to cash in on there PTC university which is basically 800+ hours of training videos that they usually sell for a few grand for like $100 so I took advantage of that and all I can say is WOW. From the surface solidworks and pro/e look similar and if your are doing basic work that either would sufice but when you get into more complex work pro/e takes the trophy for sure.

Another feature I like in pro/e is if you extrude piece going through each other they only take up the one space and not both. For example SW would count it twice if you made a 1 inch cube and them put a solid rod through the center 3 inches long and 1 inch dia. It would count the mass and surface of the cube and then the mass and surface of the rod even though a third of the rod takes of the same space as the cub


I really like pro/e wildfire 5.0 as the new gui is alot easier to use altho its still not as "pretty as solidworks" its still nice. The other problem was I really liked the photoview 360 that came with SW and its textures were spot on as far as realist goes but after using pro/e for awhile It has some good renders as well. I have included some of my work that I am doing now. It not the whole thing as it is not yet patented so I would be giving up my rights to it if I showed it off but you get the idea. The odd chamfers are pro/e's weld tool.








Now to the rest of the post I agree more than anything that all ME students need to take a few YEARS of shop classes with all types of machines to graduate. I have been around a shop since JR high and this has helped me to design cheaper and possible designs. I also know about putting things together and so I can design parts with notches or flanges so that they align when welded and don't need a high cost high labor jig to get them right. As well it is really easily to design something in 3D cad that is impossible to make with modern machinery.

The thing that actually got me into engineering was when I would be working on one of my dirt bikes I found some really retarded bolt that requires half of the bike to come apart to get to it when they easily could have moved the hole over an inch and made it assessable. So I decided I would become an engineer and TRY not to make things like that. I also like to build and test stuff so that helps.

As far as albrie goes I have not used it but almost whet to it the last cad switch as it has a lot of nice features and really impressive rendering. The biggest reason I didn't is most companies in the power sport industry seem to use pro/e so I figured if I learned it now I would have a head start if my current company does not pan out.

Its really cool to put it all together and see what it will look like but no worries as the finished product is way cooler to see.

Also if you ever get into top down design let me know and I will point you to some VERY good articles written but a guy who uses solidworks. He is very good at working around a programs weaknesses(they ALL have them) and still getting your desired result. Also his techniques work to some extend in all parametric programs.

With all this being said I still bust out the pen and paper when I have a new idea. Its much quicker and I can draw up many design variations in minutes and compare them all.

Good luck and I would love to help in any way I can.


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## PEU (Aug 7, 2010)

I didn't knew Alibre was doing CAM too, now that I see the link Will provided I know they still don't  they just appear to license MecSoft Visualmill, check the screens:

VisualMill: http://www.mecsoft.com/visualmill.shtml
AlibreCAM: http://www.alibre.com/products/ac.asp

its the same product 


Pablo


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## wquiles (Aug 7, 2010)

mototraxtech said:


>


Looks awesome - lots of detail work in there :twothumbs


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## mototraxtech (Aug 7, 2010)

thanks hopefully this winter I can show you the whole thing. In CAD and in finished form.


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## wquiles (Aug 7, 2010)

mototraxtech said:


> thanks hopefully this winter I can show you the whole thing. In CAD and in finished form.



That would be awesome - looking forward to it


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## Mettee (Aug 8, 2010)

is that snowmobile stuff? Looks outstanding. That is a ton of time right there in that picture. Wow


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## mansell2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Some more things to consider.

Here is my CAD progression

AutoCAD 10-12
Microstation
SDRC IDeas (3d modeling)
Pre Engineer
SolidWorks

First of all every system as stength and weakness. Each system does things a little different.

Secondly there is also a cost history.

Microstation came out in the 1980's for around $100,000 per (dual seat workstation I beleieve) Now that is alot of money. That's around $257,000 in inflated dollars today for two seats.

The AutoCAD became a lower cost option and won much of the market. AutoCAD had and has 3D, but was not a modeling option.

ProE, Catia, and Others were the modeling options. This also had high price tags. My seat (license ) of ProE cost around 35-50 thousand with installed options. This did not include the work station.

This created a low price vacuum for modeling. Solidworks, SolidEdge and others battled for the affordable market. Solidworks won. It could not do all things ProE, Catia and others could do. The price tag for all the things it could do was amazing.

Solidworks now runs between 4-9 thousand per seat depending on options. This was a great deal in the past, but by todays standards I believe there is a new vaccum being formed for a lower cost competator.

I was also going to buy Alibre during the $99 dollar promotion, but a seat of Solidworks was shifted to me at work.

Alibre Design is not Solidworks. But it is amazing at the price point. I love Solidworks, but could not recommend it to my self or others for use on a hobby. I would buy Alibre and figure out how to use it.

Finally - DON'T GET LOST IN MODEL WORLD. The goal is Real World products. Every hour you spend trying to get 3D threads to model is an hour you could have spent in real world threading. Modeling is a tool to work out your design. Don't get lost trying to make every feature model perfect. Leave that for individuals that are making virtual publications, etc. I assume we are all trying to make stuff we can play with.

mansell2


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## mototraxtech (Aug 10, 2010)

Actually solidworks can not do EVERYTHING pro/e and catia can.

This is how it works

Pro/E and solidworks are equal at the base level(the cheapest version). After that pro/e can be expanded far beyond solidworks capabilities. So if you are doing things that are to the level of of the basic program then it is just user preference. BUT after that pro/e can be expanded FAR beyond the capabilities of solidworks for a price that is of roughly 5000 per module. This is why alot of companies choose it over SW as they can expand to many different capabilities that are directly integrated. Companies that use SW make the sacrifice that when they want these additions they usually have to purchase third party programs and do a lot of importing and exporting(Not always!)

Solidworks and pro/e for the base package are roughly 5000 a piece. Something to remember about each is that it is like buying a car. Just because there is a set price does not mean you can not talk them down a grand or so. Also SW yearly licenses cost more that pro/e which was a big deciding factor as I got the base model of pro/e for less that the base of SW.

As for Catia I think you made a bold statement when you said SW was every bit as good as Catia. Catia is really on a differant level that SW or Pro/E. Its surfacing capabilities are far superior to either. Just for those that don't know what surfacing is think about the difference between a dune buggy with a tube frame and a newer car with all of its aerodynamic curvatures through the entire design. Neither Pro/E or SW could accomplish that is reasonable time.

Just in case you guys are wondering I spend a lot of time researching things before I buy them especially when they cost 5k plus!

Note this is not a which is better statement it is the truth. I will still say I like the SW interface better as it is much prettier and the button say alot just by looking at them.


Oh and about the snowmobile question the answer is kinda!

I just got the ok from the wife to get the money and complete the project this winter if we can afford it so im kinda excited.


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## precisionworks (Aug 11, 2010)

> I just got the ok from the wife to get the money and complete the project ...


It's much easier to get the ok from the wife after the project is done 

Always better to ask forgiveness than to be denied permission


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## mototraxtech (Aug 11, 2010)

while in many case I would agree I made it a note to marry someone that would not hold me back from the things I wanted. So MOST of the time is ok unless we are broke or something. I really don't want to ruin a good thing. We are talking about the women who let me buy a lathe a put it in the living rooms.

Ahh which reminds me we just moved down the road to a bigger house and I now have a small room form my lathe to stay in all by itself. It going to be great and be much easier to clean up the mess. I will show pic of it next week.


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## precisionworks (Aug 11, 2010)

> We are talking about the women who let me buy a lathe a put it in the living rooms.


That qualifies for an almost perfect wife ... a perfect wife would clean up the machine after each job 

Our spouses do put up with a lot, but in exchange their stuff gets fixed before anyone else :thumbsup:


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## mototraxtech (Aug 13, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Our spouses do put up with a lot, but in exchange their stuff gets fixed before anyone else :thumbsup:



True that! We just moved into a new house and I cant count how many things I have fixed in the last three days. Ah but its oh so fun!


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## Walterk (Aug 16, 2010)

3D is a tool And big fun.
I like Microstation a lot (Renderings made with Microstation ).
Slowly picking up Rhinoceros.
Hoping at work we will start Solid Edge later this year.











And as-build result:


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## KC2IXE (Aug 18, 2010)

After my "unhappy" experience with Bobcad/cam (the inability to make 2d drawings was a deal breaker - otherwise generally happy) I shelled out for AD Expert with maintainence - If you buy it during your trial period, you get $400 additional off

BTW, Next month, a new version hits the street, which does some things that I wanted them to do, and with the maint, I'll get a free upgrade - in Beta right now


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## modamag (Aug 19, 2010)

Solidworks people actually were originally ProE developers. That's why the two are so much alike.

When you deal with large assembly (airplane, power plant) Siemen NX, or ProE Wildfire is the way to go.

But for us hobbiest, with our several piece assembly, Solidworks or even emachineshop is perfectly fine.

I myself run off an old version of Solidworks 2005 so it's compatible with most shop in the area. Along with a student version of FeatureCAM to crank out G-code.

You can get student version of these software and save a bundle.

Solidworks run for as low as $100/student ed. I paid $500 for mine

FeatureCAM was $300 when I got it.


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