# Firefoxes FF3 vs Polarion PH40 Beamshots comparison



## Doberman (Jul 10, 2012)

Hi all,
wondered how my FF3´s would compete with my PH 40.
So i went out for a nighthike a couple of days ago to take some pictures. I´ve chosen my neutral-white FF3, cause it´s the same light tempearture than the PH40 has. 
It´s an animated GIF, so just enjoy. 
Pics have all been taken with same settings incl AWB. I set exposure time very short to prevent blow-out areas. In reality the beams were more impressive. 
I don´t tend to say that the FF3 outbeats the PH40. The PH is more stable, has a longer runtime and holds the performance the entire time. It´s also unbeaten within throw.
But the FF3 is, within daily use, very practicable, very, very bright and therefore competes well in its specific advantages against the PH. 
I am very impressed. Compared to the CW-version of the FF3 it´s even more impressive with a loss of natural colors when outside.

Rgds
Doberman


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## Phil Ament (Jul 10, 2012)

Hi there Doberman,

I was just reading through your post and I have a question about it for you. I too have a Polarion although it is not the same model as yours because mine is an Abyss Dual S, and I also have two of the Fire-Foxes 3 lights as well and so I can really relate to what you are saying. The thing that I don't understand is that you make several references to your "neutral white version" FF3 when you had stated the following:




> I´ve chosen my neutral-white FF3, cause it´s the same light tempearture than the PH40 has.






> Compared to the NW-version of the FF3 it´s even more impressive with a loss of natural colors when outside.




I have done quite a fair bit of research on just about every aspect of the Fire-Foxes 3, including keeping abreast of it's development, production and eventual release on the shoudian.com forum. The thing is that not once have I ever heard or read anything about any different versions of any type and so I was wondering if you could just clarify exactly what you mean, as I would dearly love to know what it is that you are actually talking about.


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## Doberman (Jul 10, 2012)

Hi Phil Ament,

a colleague of mine in china ordered and shipped those two FF3´s for me.
They look absolutely identical and do differ in one thing only ; The color temperature. 
One is NW(4300K i guess) and one is CW(5500K i guess) . 
Don´t know why, it was so since i received the lamps; it did not change after 10hrs of burn in-time for each light (what i first thought would happen) .
So i can only imagine that there are two versions of the FF3 arround in sale, or that there is such a broad distribution in the Flashlights. 
My FF3´s don´t have serial numbers, so i couldn´t get an idea of the production age difference or if maybe one of the lights is a preproduction version (there was a set of FF3´s sold a few month ago). 
I don´t want to open the heads to check for different bulbs, cause i don´t want to break the seals. 
In the end, this is the reason why i call my FF´s NW and CW, cause they distribute NW and CW light.
Hope this helps for clarification.


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## BVH (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm a little slow in comparing the shots. Could you possibly increase the interval each shot is displayed?


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## scheven_architect (Jul 10, 2012)

BVH said:


> I'm a little slow in comparing the shots. Could you possibly increase the interval each shot is displayed?



save the .gif and open in preview, you should be able to switch between the different images at the pace you want.


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## BVH (Jul 10, 2012)

OK, I'll try that out! Thanks!


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## Doberman (Jul 10, 2012)

As requested;

rgds


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## Patriot (Jul 10, 2012)

Very impressive performance from a light of this size and cost. It's always difficult to see a difference in lumen output while it's relatively easy to distinguish between throw. Seems to me that it matches the light output of the Polarion. Thanks for the beamshots!


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## Phil Ament (Jul 10, 2012)

Doberman said:


> Hi Phil Ament,
> 
> a colleague of mine in china ordered and shipped those two FF3´s for me.
> They look absolutely identical and do differ in one thing only ; The color temperature.
> ...



Hi again Doberman

Thanks for your answer and just as I had previously stated I also have two of the FF3's. One of mine is a production model and the other is a pre-production unit from the original 40 that were released earlier this year, and after what you have stated I will now have to go and compare them again just to see if there is any colour temperature difference between the two of them, although I am 99% certain that I would have realised it already if there was. I had already noticed though that if you have a closer look at them there is quite a marked difference in the visual appearance of the actual bulbs. There is also several very easy ways to externally identify a pre-production version as there are numerous differences that I have already discovered. If you either post or PM me a picture of both of yours I would be able to tell you which models that they actually are if you would really like to know.



P.S. I know that it may not be that easy to do, however a close up picture of both of the bulbs would be really great to see if at all possible!


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## ma_sha1 (Jul 10, 2012)

Amazing!


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## Joe_torch (Jul 15, 2012)

Wow! The FF3 is a really powerfuI compact Iight. Very impressive performance.
Thanks for your nice beam.
Joe


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## Doberman (Jul 15, 2012)

Hi,
pls find URL´s to a closeup of the bulbs and the flashlights itself.
The lights look absolutely the same, also the bulbs seem to do, but i am not expert enough to find potential differences .

Rgds













Phil Ament said:


> Hi again Doberman
> 
> Thanks for your answer and just as I had previously stated I also have two of the FF3's. One of mine is a production model and the other is a pre-production unit from the original 40 that were released earlier this year, and after what you have stated I will now have to go and compare them again just to see if there is any colour temperature difference between the two of them, although I am 99% certain that I would have realised it already if there was. I had already noticed though that if you have a closer look at them there is quite a marked difference in the visual appearance of the actual bulbs. There is also several very easy ways to externally identify a pre-production version as there are numerous differences that I have already discovered. If you either post or PM me a picture of both of yours I would be able to tell you which models that they actually are if you would really like to know.
> 
> ...


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## Phil Ament (Jul 15, 2012)

Hi there Doberman

Well I have had a close look at both of the photos and it appears as though both of your two lights are the pre-production models. Having just said that I am just a little unsure about one particular detail. The tailcaps of the pre-production and the production models are a slightly different design and yours are definitely the pre-production versions. The bodies of the pre-production and the production FF3's are also a slightly different design, and once again both of the bodies of yours definitely show that they are the pre-production versions. My only problem is that when I have a look at the photos of both of the bulbs they appear to look more like the production versions, however it is a little difficult for me to make out all of the finer details of them.

Did you receive any paperwork with your lights as this is another way to assist in distinguishing between the two different models. If they did come with all of the original paperwork could you please tell me the following:

What language is the User Manual printed in?

There are usually 2 small pieces of paper that come with them and that are sized just a little bit larger than a credit card, and one of them is the "Warranty Card" and the other is a "Certificate". The one that has "Certificate" printed on it is the one that I will be referring to, and so what I would like to know is that if all of the details that have been filled out on it have been stamped on it or are they actually hand written. It would also also be very helpful to know what details they have filled in next to the "Type" and "Date" headings. 


As I mentioned earlier on after viewing the photos I am quite satisfied that they are both pre-production models but the additional information that I have requested above will help me to ascertain it for sure!


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## Phil Ament (Jul 15, 2012)

Further to my previous post if you still have their original boxes this can help as well. All of the boxes had the following written on them:

Go Ultimate!
Fire-Foxes 40W HID Flashlight


On the pre-production boxes this is printed on a white rectangular label which was then stuck on to the top of the boxes.
On the production boxes it is actually printed directly on to the top of the boxes themselves.


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## beyondfan (Jul 15, 2012)

I got my fire-foxer FF3 today,two spare orings and one breaker in the package also.and there is a ID card also.
there is Go Ultimate!Fire-Foxes 40W HID Flashlight printed in the box.


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## Phil Ament (Jul 15, 2012)

beyondfan said:


> I got my fire-foxer FF3 today,two spare orings and one breaker in the package also.and there is a ID card also.
> there is Go Ultimate!Fire-Foxes 40W HID Flashlight printed in the box.



Yes that is correct about the ID card. It is a plastic one and it is exactly the same size as a credit card, although I am not too sure what you mean when you say that "one breaker" is included in the package. If just as you say you're writing is printed directly on to the box then it would be the production model.




P.S. As a matter of interest may I ask where you purchased it from. I tried to PM you this question however you don't have enough posts for your PM's to work yet!


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## rufus001 (Jul 15, 2012)

I ordered one a few days ago. I wonder if I'll get a pre-production or production model. :shrug:


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## Phil Ament (Jul 15, 2012)

rufus001 said:


> I ordered one a few days ago. I wonder if I'll get a pre-production or production model. :shrug:



Where did you order it from. If it is a brand new one I very strongly doubt that it would be a pre-production model, as there were only ever 40 of them and they were released back in March, and apparently they were all sold within about 30 seconds.


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## rufus001 (Jul 15, 2012)

Phil Ament said:


> Where did you order it from. If it is a brand new one I very strongly doubt that it would be a pre-production model, as there were only ever 40 of them and they were released back in March, and apparently they were all sold within about 30 seconds.



flashlight-torch(.com)

Found them by googling. Rather generic chinese website that I have never seen before. I paypal'd it so I can always reverse it.


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## rufus001 (Jul 15, 2012)

I just noticed that EVERY product they have on the website is also "New for July!". :lolsign:


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## Phil Ament (Jul 15, 2012)

rufus001 said:


> flashlight-torch(.com)
> 
> Found them by googling. Rather generic chinese website that I have never seen before. I paypal'd it so I can always reverse it.




I see that you are in Melbourne too. First of all what the hell are you doing up at this time of night, and secondly when I went to that site and I selected Australian dollars it tells me that the price is $25650 which is sort of a little bit on the expensive side, don't you think!


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## rufus001 (Jul 15, 2012)

Phil Ament said:


> I see that you are in Melbourne too. First of all what the hell are you doing up at this time of night, and secondly when I went to that site and I selected Australian dollars it tells me that the price is $25650 which is sort of a little bit on the expensive side, don't you think!



I'm a bit of a night owl. I just paid in USD so didn't notice the change.  I see they have added a couple of more HID's as well.


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## Doberman (Jul 15, 2012)

Hi Phil Ament,
Package and paperwork refer to the first series of lights.
The text is printed on a lable, manual is in chinese (as bought in China absolute OK). Certifikate info ist hand written, not stamped, and the date sais 21.04. 
Could you perhaps upload a picture of the second series version that points out the differences ?
Would be interested im them.
And did you do some Lux-measurement on your lights ?
Would be interesting to see the Lux outcome of your lights.

Thanks and regards
Doberman


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## Doberman (Jul 15, 2012)

BTW,
attached a sample of the color temperatures of the FF3´s. 






Outer left is a Wolf-Eyes Boxer, Outer right is a TM11 on Turbo mode.
In the inner rectangle :
Top left: Polarion PH40
Bottom left: Magicfire MF40
Top right: FF3 Cool white
Bottom right: FF3 Neutral white


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## Patriot (Jul 15, 2012)

Great comparison shot Doberman! The 'mighty' TM11 looks like a toy among these other lights....lol. What a great way of comparing the beam shapes, relative lumen output and color! This has been a great thread.


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## Phil Ament (Jul 15, 2012)

Yes I second that Patriot as it is a great comparison shot from Doberman. From what I can see it looks to me as though his "Cool White" version FF3 is around the 6000k mark yet I have never seen or heard of anything other than the stock 4300k bulb coming in the FF3 as standard. About the only logical explanation that I can really come up with is that it may just be a bulb from the FF2 as it was available in either a 4300k or a 6000k version, and if this is the case I am also not certain if this has actually occurred by accident or it had been done on purpose for some particular reason. 

I am also a little confused by the fact that Doberman's lights have the date of April 21st written on the "Certificate" card, because as far as I had been aware of all of the pre-production lights were dated around the 20th of March, not April. As I had mentioned earlier on I have performed quite a lot of research all about the FF3's and up until now they have all followed the so called rules as I knew them, however Doberman's light's seem to be the exception to these rules for the above reasons. Maybe ma_sha1 could chime in here as I am aware of the fact that at one stage he too had both a pre-production and a production model, however I believe that he now only has the pre-production one.

There is also a CPF thread (here) that ma_sha1 started in which he shows a picture of both versions side by side, and in which he also states the following output test results:

*Production Unit - *
Ceiling bounce 465/Throw 215,000 [email protected] 1 meter*
Pre-production unit -*
ceiling bounce 505/Throw 225 [email protected] 1 meter. (should read 225,000 I guess)


For reference sake the picture of both versions sitting side by side is here, and below I will list some of the differences that I have found between the two of them, with the more obvious first. Just to makes things a little easier from this point on I will be referring to them as the P version for the production model and the PP version for the pre-production one.


1: The PP version's box is a little smaller and the wording "Go Ultimate! Fire-Foxes 40W HID Flashlight" is printed on a white rectangular label which has then been affixed to the upper right hand corner on the top of the box, whereas on the P version it is actually printed directly on to the top of the box itself. I will also add that the size differences between the two boxes appears to be more exaggerated in the photo and it is not quite as dramatic as that in real life!

2: On the body of the PP version FF3 it has written "Fire-Foxes FF3 40W HID Flashlight" whereas on the P version it is "Fire-Foxes FF3 Mini HID Flashlight". The writing on the PP version FF3 is also a much smaller font.

3: The PP version is actually around 5mm or so shorter than the P version, and this can sort of be seen in the photo of the two of them. The main reason for this appears to be that the head of the PP version is slightly shorter however the tailcap also adds a little to this result as well.

4: The tailcap on the PP version has much wider scalloping on it and this can also be seen in the photo. It is also very marginally shorter than the P version tailcap.

5: The PP version's manual was only printed in Chinese whereas the P version was printed in English. Similar to the different writing on the bodies of the lights, the P version's manual also has "Fire-Foxes Mini 40W HID Flashlight" printed on the front cover. I will also add that it has a spelling mistake because on the front cover just below where it has written "Fire-Foxes Mini 40W HID Flashlight" it also has written the following:

Maual
English

6: As mentioned earlier on the "Certificate" that comes with the PP version has all of the details filled out in handwriting whereas the P version's is all stamped on.

7: The PP version's bulb has been finished to an impeccably high standard and it has been flawlessly crafted. In comparison the P version's bulb looks like a slightly amateurish attempt, especially when it comes to the outer tip of it that is closest to the glass lens.

8: On the PP version the positive contacts of the battery carrier are far smoother in finish and much more conically shaped (see here) making it considerably easier when inserting the batteries. It also appears as if they are either made of a slightly different material or they may have some sort of different plating on it, because the PP version's contacts are a very shiny gold colour whereas the P version's are more of a brass colour and they are far from being shiny and it sort of looks as though they already have a very slight amount of oxidisation forming on them.

9: In general nearly all of the pieces on the PP version seem to have been crafted to a much higher standard than the P version. For example if one was to look at the two different battery carriers, on the PP version all of the springs and the contacts appear to be made of a higher quality material and every single edge of the carrier is perfectly smooth and formed, whereas the P version's battery carrier has many sharp/jagged edges and/or joins.

10: From some of the internal pictures that I have seen there also appears to be several differences inside the heads themselves.


Lastly here are two closer pics that show the different writing and the tailcap scalloping.

PP version here.
P version here.


I really hope that all of this information is of some assistance, and if there is anything in particular that I have forgotten to mention I will add it at some later stage.



Sincerely Yours
Phil Ament :wave:


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## Phil Ament (Jul 15, 2012)

Hi there again Doberman,

After just having had another close look at your beam comparison shot, it looks as though that even your so called "neutral white" version FF3 appears to be considerably cooler than the 4300k that they are meant to be. Just compare it to the colour of the PH40 which is also meant to be 4300k and so they should almost be exactly the same in appearance, yet they are not even close, and you're "cool white" version FF3 also appears as though that it may be even higher than 6000k. When it comes to the colour temperature of your two lights I am slightly bewildered!


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## Doberman (Jul 16, 2012)

Hi Patriot;
thanks for the comment.
The Boxer Wallshot is the result of your fantastic desktop review of that flashlight. 
It´s not an actual HID, but i managed to get a used one (v2) in good conditions and i am still impressed of Output and build quality.




Patriot said:


> Great comparison shot Doberman! The 'mighty' TM11 looks like a toy among these other lights....lol. What a great way of comparing the beam shapes, relative lumen output and color! This has been a great thread.


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## Doberman (Jul 16, 2012)

Hi there Phil Ament,

thanks a lot for outdetailling the differences of the P and PP versions.
According to this i´m 100% sure to have the PP-Versions.

And you are right according the color temperatures of the PH40 and the FF3 NW.
So, even my NW version seems to be higher than 4300K in color


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## Colonel Sanders (Jul 16, 2012)

My FF3 is certainly warmer than your neutral, Doberman.


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## beyondfan (Aug 13, 2012)

My fire foxes FF3 is using 4xsanyo 2600mAh 18650,the runtime is about 55-60 minutes.which kind of battery do you use to feed this flashlight.if there is some kind of battery can make it run several hours,just like LED flashlight?


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## Colonel Sanders (Aug 13, 2012)

I use the new Panasonic NCR18650B cells. They are a true 3400mah and are the highest capacity 18650 cells on the market at the moment. You won't get several hours run time with these cells but an hour+ will be easy. If you run it mostly after the thermal step down occurs (the FF3 drops to 24w when it gets hot) then you should get more than 1:30 with these cells.

*"just like LED flashlight?"* 

Any LED light of this size that can run for several hours is going to have far, far less output than the FF3.


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## jmpaul320 (Aug 13, 2012)

beyondfan said:


> My fire foxes FF3 is using 4xsanyo 2600mAh 18650,the runtime is about 55-60 minutes.which kind of battery do you use to feed this flashlight.if there is some kind of battery can make it run several hours,just like LED flashlight?



i use these same cells with good results


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## beyondfan (Aug 14, 2012)

Of cause it is brighter than any LED flashlight.and the temperature color is 4300k like my car,when I light it in bedroom.my wife ask me if I bring my car in bed room.Panasonic NCR18650B 3400Amh is expensive for its capacity,I buy the sanyo battery becasue it come from the fire foxes FF3 propagate picture.perhaps another spare 4 batteries is better if I want to extend run time.


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## Zephrus (Oct 2, 2012)

Hey Doberman, thanks for this great review and taking the time to do a direct comparison between the FF3 and PH40. The beamshots are spectacular as well. The FF3 is one of the flashlights I've been considering.

What I find interesting about your review is that in almost every picture it "seems" as thought the FF3 has more light output overall than the Polarion. I know this is likely an illusion for the fact that the the PH40 has a much tighter beam and more throw with its SMO Electroformed reflector, yet the output of the FF3 remains impressive in your pics. 

Personally I think the strongest selling point of the FF3 over the PH40 is price. As in $280 vs. $2000. Although I don't own any Polarions, I've handled/tried them and I know that their design, construction and quality control are absolutely impeccable and second to none. And one day I might snag one of these great lights. But again, for $280, and by way of your review, the FF3 looks like a very, very attractive option. If I may ask, what did you find the max runtime on the FF3 to be? About how long were you able to run at 40 watts until the light kicked into low mode? I'm still reading up on the reviews and the info in this thread, but if you have the Production version (as opposed to the Pre Production version), how does the quality seem to be? There seem to be some observations from members here that the "P" version isn't quite the quality as the "PP" version. Do you have both? If so, what percentage of "quality degradation" would you say the "P" might be compared to the "PP?" Thanks.


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## Doberman (Oct 3, 2012)

Hi Zephrus,
thanks for your friendly comment. I am fully pleased with my two FF3´s.
They are both PP models and the build quality earns IMO an A rating. Everything is very solid and fits perfect. The reflector is well built and the bulb perfectly centered. 
The clearance between reflector and Bulb is also very good and the texture (OP) is distributed very evenly over the surface. These are the best conditions for a bright and equal beam.

I can follow your impression that the pictures show a higher output on the FF3, but i can state that
the overall Light output of the PH is still higher than the FF3 output. It develops much more range, but this is not visible on the pictures (guess here the camera sensor, and the .gif quality limit the overall impression).
Nevertheless, despite from my PH40 the FF has an enormous light output and that compared to it´s size the best of all my HID flashlights. 
My tempearture protection kicks in after 10-15 minutes (depends on the outside temperature) and max runtime is 50 minutes with Sanyos 2600´s unprotected. 
It might be a bit less than others, but my FF seems to be very high in Output on high mode (230.000 LM), this could be a reason for the slightly minimized runtime.
Can´t compare P to PP version, because i own two PP´s. But as explained some entries before the overall buildquality seems to be some nuances better than the P version.

One thing i can state: both FF´s hum audibly when distance to ear is less than 40 cm. 
But that is something i can live with and i have the option to pott the ballast to reduce noise if it starts annoying me.


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## Toppe (Oct 5, 2012)

Doberman said:


> Hi Zephrus,
> I can follow your impression that the pictures show a higher output on the FF3, but i can state that
> the overall Light output of the PH is still higher than the FF3 output. It develops much more range, but this is not visible on the pictures (guess here the camera sensor, and the .gif quality limit the overall impression).
> Nevertheless, despite from my PH40 the FF has an enormous light output and that compared to it´s size the best of all my HID flashlights. .



Yes, your eyes don't lie, PH40 definitely throws further because it has better and bigger reflector. Things change when lighting close distances then FF3 clearly beats Ph40. By both ways: measurement and with bare eyes. I also have ff3 and ph40, so i think i have experience to say that  By the way, don't forget that ff3 produces over 1000 lumens more than ph40 (3150 vs ~4150) , measured with Labsphere FS2 :thumbsup: (Meets ANSI FL1-2009 requirements for Run-Time and light output measurement)

-Toppe


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## Zephrus (Oct 5, 2012)

Doberman said:


> Hi Zephrus,
> thanks for your friendly comment. I am fully pleased with my two FF3´s.
> They are both PP models and the build quality earns IMO an A rating. Everything is very solid and fits perfect. The reflector is well built and the bulb perfectly centered.
> The clearance between reflector and Bulb is also very good and the texture (OP) is distributed very evenly over the surface. These are the best conditions for a bright and equal beam.
> ...




Doberman thank you very much for the additional info. Getting ready to pull the trigger on the FF3 or comparable light. And again, excellent review on this light.


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## Doberman (Oct 6, 2012)

Hi Toppe,
if it is not a typo, you should let check your PH40; it is factory rated with 4200 ANSI Lumens .So does mine after the burn in time.
Perhaps the bulb of your PH40 is at the end of it´s lifetime ?

Regards 




Toppe said:


> Yes, your eyes don't lie, PH40 definitely throws further because it has better and bigger reflector. Things change when lighting close distances then FF3 clearly beats Ph40. By both ways: measurement and with bare eyes. I also have ff3 and ph40, so i think i have experience to say that  By the way, don't forget that ff3 produces over 1000 lumens more than ph40 (3150 vs ~4150) , measured with Labsphere FS2 :thumbsup: (Meets ANSI FL1-2009 requirements for Run-Time and light output measurement)
> 
> -Toppe


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## Toppe (Oct 6, 2012)

Doberman said:


> Hi Toppe,
> if it is not a typo, you should let check your PH40; it is factory rated with 4200 ANSI Lumens .So does mine after the burn in time.
> Perhaps the bulb of your PH40 is at the end of it´s lifetime ?
> 
> Regards



I have never measured my ph40 with that labsphere fs2, but those guys who owns fs2 did actually measured their own ph40. I saw data of their measurements concerning ph40. It was ~3150lumens. Maybe i need to go there and test another ph40 (mine). I have cheap lux/lumen meter and in dark room ff3 shows more lux than ph40. I don't think that they both (ph40) are broken or something.

But yes, next time when i go to that place where is labsphere fs2 i will take my own ph40 to test run and then we will see if it is or not 4000lumens+. I hope also that it produce 4200lumens


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## Doberman (Oct 6, 2012)

This is really interesting;
i just measured my FF3CWPP against my PH 40 (both after 1 min. startup) @2 meters with my Luxmeter in a room (had to chose 2 meters distance, at 1 meter both lights go over the Lux meters max. range of 200KLux). 
The Polarion throws ca. 3 times more Lux on the sensor than the FF3 does (and this is rated 230 [email protected] 1meter (on a friends Lux meter that alows up to 500 KLux)). 
So i would really suggest to make a sanity check on your PH.
You also can see a clear difference in my comparison shot in #24.
Or could it be, that i have a PH40 labeled PH50 ?? 

Regards


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## Toppe (Oct 6, 2012)

Doberman said:


> This is really interesting;
> i just measured my FF3CWPP against my PH 40 (both after 1 min. startup) @2 meters with my Luxmeter in a room (had to chose 2 meters distance, at 1 meter both lights go over the Lux meters max. range of 200KLux).
> The Polarion throws ca. 3 times more Lux on the sensor than the FF3 does (and this is rated 230 [email protected] 1meter (on a friends Lux meter that alows up to 500 KLux)).
> So i would really suggest to make a sanity check on your PH.
> ...



Yes, totally interesting. I made some ceiling bounce tests again in a dark room (white color painted). 2meters to inner roof and flashlight on (let it settle ~3min) I use cheap lux/lumenmeter. I chose range 2000.

*Polarion PH40: 232lux
Fire Foxes 3: 294lux*

This Polarion PH40 used to be Vee73's and it doesn't have many hours running. I think that he would have known if this is not so powerfull "individual". He has owned many Polarion lights as u may know.

*EDIT:* Luxmeter was at the same level that the flashlight (on the bed) So no direct light to sensor, just ceiling bounce from inner roof.

EDIT2: Maybe your FF3 is a lot weaker than mine? Also my FF3 have much warmer colour temperature. Officially we tested that it is 4600k.


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## Doberman (Oct 7, 2012)

Guess that Ceiling Bounce and direct sensor measurement are totally different approaches. 
From it´s nature throwers should have a better performance in direct sensor measurement, because they focus the output to one spot; sesnor should measure more Lux than from a thrower, where the beam is distributed to a wider area. 
This should be reflected better in a ceiling bounce test.
Could you try a sensor measurement at a distance where your Lux-meter is not outranged ? Would be very interested in the results.

-Doberman


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## Toppe (Oct 7, 2012)

Doberman said:


> Guess that Ceiling Bounce and direct sensor measurement are totally different approaches.
> From it´s nature throwers should have a better performance in direct sensor measurement, because they focus the output to one spot; sesnor should measure more Lux than from a thrower, where the beam is distributed to a wider area.
> This should be reflected better in a ceiling bounce test.
> Could you try a sensor measurement at a distance where your Lux-meter is not outranged ? Would be very interested in the results.
> ...



Yes they are, you are absolutely right about that. I'm not saying that ff3 wins ph40 if we measure brightness (hotspot) at further distances (ph40 wins, because it has brilliant reflector). I'm just talking about MAX light output (lumens) and that we can measure by integrated sphere system like labsphere fs2. Reflector size and beam profile is not so important in this test. But like i say, i will test my own ph40 against FF3 with integrated sphere and then we know which one has bigger light output...

If my ph40 loses also, then we have at least two broken polarions here in Finland, or do we? 

-Toppe


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## Zephrus (Oct 7, 2012)

Toppe said:


> Yes they are, you are absolutely right about that. I'm not saying that ff3 wins ph40 if we measure brightness (hotspot) at further distances (ph40 wins, because it has brilliant reflector). I'm just talking about MAX light output (lumens) and that we can measure by integrated sphere system like labsphere fs2. Reflector size and beam profile is not so important in this test. But like i say, i will test my own ph40 against FF3 with integrated sphere and then we know which one has bigger light output...
> 
> If my ph40 loses also, then we have at least two broken polarions here in Finland, or do we?
> 
> -Toppe




I think this whole thing is very interesting, and it will be interesting to see the result of the Labsphere tests. When I commented on Doberman's beamshots and said that the FF3 appeared more intense, I meant only that; that it "appeared" more intense. I'm just going by what my eye sees in the pics. I could have also said that the PH40 clearly has better throw, which is probably no surprise. Let's suppose that the PH40 and FF3 being used in Doberman's pics really are 4000 and 4200 lumens respectively. It would make sense that the FF3 would appear to have a greater intensity because much more of the emitted light is in the foreground, closer to the camera. And also for the reason that it has a wider, "floodier" beam, which again puts more of the energy right up front where it perceived as being more obvious.

The PH40 would throw more or most of its power downrange. Its beam is narrower and thus doesn't spill a lot of light right up front as the FF3 does. So I can easily see how the "illusion" might be created the FF3 has a good deal more output if one is going strictly by beamshots in pictures. 

Another thing is that, operating at the 4000 and 4200 lumen range .... and in a logarithmic sense, a 200 lumen increase is almost inconsequential. It isn't like the difference between, say, 4000 lumens and 6500 lumens. So personally I think the relatively small difference between the two may be largely academic. If you want an HID that is almost strictly for throw, go with the PH40. IF you need something that has a fairly good throw (although not as much) but also floods a closer area, go with the FF3.

IMHO at the end of the day, it's all in how our eyes see it in real life, and the application for which we need the light for. If it works for us and we're satisfied, we have the right light.


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## Toppe (Oct 12, 2012)

Ok guys, today we measured my FF3 and PH40. Measurement system: Labsphere FS2 (expensive as hell).

*FF3 @ Labsphere FS2 

PH40 @ Labsphere FS2*
Polarion takes lot of current and brightens quickly but then drops lot. FF3:s start current is much less like we know, but who is the winner when light output is stable... 

Do you guys think that my PH40 is broken? I really like Polarion products and respect their work so i really do hope that my ph40 is broken and NOT that polarion is cheating: "Lamp Output: 4,200 lamp lumens" <-© Polarion. Maybe there is some Polarion guy @ cpf who would like to tell his opinion. 

Ps. Two different PH40:s shows almost same results... 

-Toppe


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## Zephrus (Oct 12, 2012)

Awesome stuff Toppe! :thumbsup:

I have to say, very interesting that your PH40 is dropping to around 3000 or a little below. Do you have perhaps another PH40 "control" you could test? Just seems strange or unlikely that the PH40 would be putting out less than 4000 


EDIT: Maybe if someone else in here (Patriot?) has a PH40, you could compare notes with him on a simply Lux test @ X meters. Not as accurate as LabSphere but at least it might give you an idea?

EDIT 2: Oops didn't see your P.S. - Man, yeah that is weird with the PH40. Definitely at a loss to understand it :thinking: On the other hand the FF3 certainly fared extremely well in the test!  Bright little monster! Don't know if you have one but if you ever get a chance do you think you could run a LS test on the MF 65W? Would love to know its true output as well.


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## Toppe (Oct 12, 2012)

Zephrus said:


> Awesome stuff Toppe! :thumbsup:
> 
> I have to say, very interesting that your PH40 is dropping to around 3000 or a little below. Do you have perhaps another PH40 "control" you could test? Just seems strange or unlikely that the PH40 would be putting out less than 4000
> 
> ...



I don't have MF65W, so it's not possible to measure it right away. But if someone from Finland owns Magic Fire 65w, please send it to Taskulamput.fi store and i'm sure that they will test it with labsphere. Really nice shop, i recommend.

But yes, 4200 bulb lumens is really something else than 2900 lumens light output... That is the main "problem" now. Maybe i will contact Polarion next week.

Ps. FF3:s light pattern is so clean, compared against polarion, but mainly because it has different reflector. FF3 ~4100 lumen really is amazing!


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## ma_sha1 (Oct 12, 2012)

I don't think your PF40 is broken. You have measured two PF40 & the numbers are consistent. 
These are the Only Lumen readings I've seen after reading many Polarion threads. 

The polarion website listed the PH40 as 4200 *lamp lumens*, *not out the front lumens*. 
http://www.polarion-store.com/pd-polarion-ph40.cfm

Your measurement is OTF lumens, which is typically ~70% of lamp lumens, as there are losses from reflector, lens as well as missed lights went back to the reflector hole at the base. 70% of 4200 is ~2900 lumens, so I'd say your measurement is spot on. 

On the other hand, the FF3 measured over 4100 OTF lumens, that means it had to have around 5300 lamp lumens, incredible :thumbsup:. 







Toppe said:


> Ok guys, today we measured my FF3 and PH40. Measurement system: Labsphere FS2 (expensive as hell).
> 
> *FF3 @ Labsphere FS2
> 
> ...


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## Doberman (Oct 12, 2012)

Toppe,
first of all thanks for all the effort you put in that; really appreciate this. 
Results seem to be obvious, and on the one hand i am really glad to own two of these little light monster cans. 
On the other hand i am a bit concerned about the overall output of the PH40 which disappoints me. 
If ma_sha1´s assumption that typical loss from Lamp lumens to OTF is about 30% is correct, we would have the reason for the difference.
Did not really recognize this small but obviously important difference. 
I think i´ll ask the Polarion guys for the OTF Lumens; they should be able to provide that info.

Again thanks for that measurements.


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## Toppe (Oct 12, 2012)

I'm just really confused that this 40w really high quality flashlight produces only 2900lumens. Damn, because i don't know who here owns ph50, i think it might be near to lose against FF...


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## Zephrus (Oct 12, 2012)

Toppe said:


> I'm just really confused that this 40w really high quality flashlight produces only 2900lumens. Damn, because i don't know who here owns ph50, i think it might be near to lose against FF...



Hopefully Patriot will check this thread. AFAIK he is the goto Polarion guy around here, as he seems to have dealing with them for a long time. I know he has a PH50 and also the CSWL Night Reaper. 

I don't necessarily think Polarion is "shorting" anybody here. Just an opinion, but remember that the FF3, as awesome as it is, still has the heating/kick-down issue. That's something the Polarions do not do. Fire Foxes is putting a TON of light into a very small package. It could almost be considered a miracle it works as well as it does for at least 5-10 minutes (going off the posts I've read here). 

The Polarions have flawless electroformed SMO reflectors. They're designed to be "military grade" and I believe have a MILSPEC rating if I'm not mistaken. Like ma sh1 said, they are in fact 4200 lamp lumens, not OTF. They are designed to be throwers, and like Doberman said, the PH40 does indeed throw further than the FF3 (despite the FF3's higher overall output). I have to admit it was kind of nice to know that my eyes weren't being totally deceived in the first pics that Doberman posted of the PH40 vs the FF3. It just "looked" like that little FF3 beast had more output overall. But I can understand what he was saying about the PH40 throwing further.

Right now I can't wait to get my MF65W, which came out at only 15 Lux lower than the PH50 did in ceiling bounce Lux tests that mohanjude did! I'm sure it's not quite the thrower the PH50 is but still it's putting out some serious power and hopefully is around 4800-4900 Lumens (although it still suffers the same deficiencies as the FF3 due to it's small size and low mass).


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 11, 2013)

Toppe said:


> Ok guys, today we measured my FF3 and PH40. Measurement system: Labsphere FS2 (expensive as hell).
> 
> *FF3 @ Labsphere FS2
> 
> ...




Wow. Disappointing. Even my SST-90 LED Eagletac MX25L2 is pushing 2100+lums out the front. Pay $1,900 more for an extra 800 lumens?

I find this a deal breaker.


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