# Pistol target shooting, hearing protection?



## geepondy (Jul 2, 2009)

It's been quite a few years since I've shot a gun but next week I plan on doing some outdoor target shooting with my buddy and his 9mm Glock. I was wondering what I should bring for hearing protection? Do you think the Flent ear stopple foam inserts are sufficient or do I really need one of the headphone over the ear type protectors? I have a much higher awareness of protecting my hearing then I did in the past.


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## carbine15 (Jul 2, 2009)

If inserted correctly the foam plugs are sufficient. The problem is that they are uncomfortable. They are also more time-consuming. Removing them to hear better means taking the time to put them back in properly before each shoot. The earmuff - headphone style are usually slightly better at stopping harmful noise. If you have them, bring a pair of those. If you don't have a pair yet, look for the ones with electronics for detecting and stopping high Db levels but still let you talk. I had occasion to try a pair and was amazed.


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## Burgess (Jul 2, 2009)

i strongly recommend . . . .



er, i mean,




I STRONGLY RECOMMEND


USING THE *BEST* HEARING PROTECTION AVAILABLE !








A good pair of Headphones (over-the-head, or back-of-head)


makes your shooting experience *much* more enjoyable.



Good Luck, and good shooting.


:thumbsup:

_


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## smokinbasser (Jul 2, 2009)

I use Norton chambered ear plugs, the same ones recommended for my former job as a jet engine tech and they handled the blast from 12 gauges and 44 mags with no issues. If you have mickey mouse headphones they work excellently too.


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## chmsam (Jul 2, 2009)

Look on the back of the package for information on the noise reduction levels. The more dB's it lowers, the better. However, valve type hearing protection will have a number lower than plugs or headphone styles since they lower the noise and pressure of sudden sounds and not the overall sound level.

I've used hearing protection for about 40 years but I promise that you do not want to deal with tinnitus. That little ringing in your ears that goes away after loud noises someday will not go away. It's annoying and it can be painful. Spend money on hearing protection if need be but get good ones no matter what.


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## Search (Jul 3, 2009)

http://www.surefire.com/EP3-Sonic-Defenders

Best thing you will ever use.

The EP3s are more comfortable. They both allow noise under 80 db to come through clearly, but everything above 80 (which is dangerous) comes through at 80.

I've used them for 6 hours of qualifying with Glock 31s and about 5 hours of qualifying with AR-15 platform rifles.

I can shoot and still hear whats going on around me.

Don't buy foam, please. It's outdated.


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## Radiophile (Jul 3, 2009)

carbine15 said:


> If inserted correctly the foam plugs are sufficient. The problem is that they are uncomfortable.


 
Gotta disagree here. I work in a high noise environment and wear earplugs every day. Because I'm cheap, I wear silicone plugs that can be washed daily and reused. If money was no object, I'd wear the disposable foam earplugs because they are much more comfortable. And as a bonus, they also reduce more noise.

I have a pair of Silencio Magnum earmuffs and even with the liquid filled pads I have trouble getting them to seal well every time I put them on my big head. Because of that, I generally wear both at the range, and take the muffs off when I'm not shooting, and just keep in the earplugs. It's overkill, because the earplugs alone offer plenty of protection.

It is a pain to take the foam plugs out and put them back in constantly, but after a while you become accustomed to the lower noise level and you can hear pretty well.


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## NA8 (Jul 3, 2009)

I like the EAR Classic foam earplugs:

312-1201	E.A.R. Classic Uncorded
(POLY BAG PACKS)
(200 count)

http://www.tasco-safety.com/earplugs/earplugs03.html#230006

Always wear them with earmuffs over them. 

http://www.tasco-safety.com/ear-muffs.html


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## binky (Jul 3, 2009)

I think the problem I have with hearing protection is that I have a big nose. 

Okay, it sounds strange, but I can cover my ears with the best hearing protection and when shooting the percussion seems to go straight into my head.

For now I just use the relatively cheap Pelton earmuff types. They work for me, anyway. I'd like to get some electronic active ones. I borrowed those once from a friend and they were much better than my passive ones, just expensive...


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## Diesel_Bomber (Jul 4, 2009)

How long will it be till you go shooting again? If you're only doing it this once and it'll be years before you go again, I'd pay 98 cents for a pair of ear plugs. I've fired my G26 thousands of times using a pair of $4 Harbor Freight ear muffs w/ no problems. They're rated at 28db reduction over most frequencies. I also picked up a box of 200 pairs of foam ear plugs for $7 from a rental place recently. They're rated at 30db reduction, I've used them before and they work fine too. While $13 for EP3's is hardly expensive, they're really not needed if they'll only get used once.

Let us know how you like the Glock. :buddies:


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## powernoodle (Jul 4, 2009)

*I wear the foam ones plus the over the ears flavor on top of that. My ears already ring 24/7, and I want to hold onto what I got.*


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## Blacksidesniper (Jul 4, 2009)

Any plugs over any muffs, as long as they fit you.


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## Lee1959 (Jul 4, 2009)

Get the best rated you can, plugs and muffs make a good combo. Do NOT skimp. I shot too many times with too little protection. I am down to approx. 50 percent, and it aint coming back, ever. And at 50, I might have a long time still to miss what I aint got...


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## Illum (Jul 4, 2009)

Search said:


> http://www.surefire.com/EP3-Sonic-Defenders
> 
> Best thing you will ever use.
> 
> ...



A little off topic but any word on using them off the range?
Dad operates the table saw/miter saw quite alot and while the foam inserts are not effective the other the ear ones are very effective and sometimes I have to wave him off to get his attention. Do you think these might be the solution?


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## Search (Jul 5, 2009)

Illum said:


> A little off topic but any word on using them off the range?
> Dad operates the table saw/miter saw quite alot and while the foam inserts are not effective the other the ear ones are very effective and sometimes I have to wave him off to get his attention. Do you think these might be the solution?



The local store only sells EP4s. I'm going to order EP3s because the bigger size is too much for my ears. My big head doesn't translate to big ear canals.

When inserted properly, which is all the way in, they allow so much sound to come through is insane. They reduce everything over 80 dbs to 80 dbs.

While firing a Glock 31 and an M16 they dropped their dbs so well I could shot the weapons and hear people yelling.

Don't ask why people were yelling, shooting was more important.

An operator can hear people talking normally and shot his weapon safely. Nothing compares. Quit using foam or muffs, they block EVERYTHING.

It would make his saw and your voice (given you speak at 80dbs) the same. If you yelled at 80 dbs and his saw was emitting 120 dbs, he would hear you the same as the saw and be very comfortable doing it.


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## Patriot (Jul 5, 2009)

Most quality foam plugs work well outdoors if the terrain is open. If you shooting in a wooded area they might not do the job. I'm sensitive to sound so anything more that a .38 special and I have to double up with my electronic Peltors and plugs together. I'd wear the electronic muffs by themselves but when wearing necessary eye protection they don't seal up over my ear as perfectly as they should because of the arms. If you're taking a lot of breaks in between shooting the muffs will probably be convenient. I would just purchase a good set of muffs and a pack of foamies and then experiment with what works best. Have fun


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## LukeA (Jul 5, 2009)

Plugs and muffs together only give you 6 or so more dB protection than either by itself (about 30dB each).


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## Search (Jul 5, 2009)

I do feel my post is being ignored. 

SureFire EP3s. Reduce every noise over 80 dbs down to 80dbs. Everything else comes through perfect.

Why would you even think about anything else afterwords.


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## Patriot (Jul 5, 2009)

I was one of the guys who read your post Search. 

I was just thinking to myself that I probably wasn't getting all that excited just because valved or dual mode plug technology has existed long before Surefire started making them. I can think of 5 or 6 brands off-hand that are somewhat popular. I've tried many of them including the Combat Arms, Aearo, Blast busters, Hocks and some others that I can't remember the name off. I'm sure that I'll eventually try the Surefire brand but to make a long story short I decided they're not all they're cracked up to be. They don't work nearly as well at letting voice through as an electronic muff and they don't seem to block noise nearly as effectively as the best super-foam plugs, regardless of their DB reduction rating. Maybe I'm just too picky or to sensitive but I sort of treat them as emergency ear protection. 

When I use plugs and electronic muffs together the muffs amplify speech enough that I can easily hear with the plugs in. Now, I don't always have to double plug but it makes a huge difference when I do. On the extreme side I shot a 9x25 Dillon race gun twice a week at indoor matches and it used to make me physically sick to my stomach if I didn't double up. In the open outdoors I can usually get away with one or the other unless I'm firing high pressure cartridges. 

I might be driving past the gun club today so I may have to stop in and give the Surefire's a try. You've got me curious as to whether they're really a departure from these other very similar types.


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## Radiophile (Jul 5, 2009)

I don't want to sound like a jerk here, but my hearing is far too important to me to risk it with some electronic device. My brother in law sold safety equipment including several brands of electronic muffs and I could have gotten them at cost, but I never even asked about them. Why? My father had a serious hearing loss - 98% in his good ear - and I saw what that did to his quality of life. He knew it too. The $5,000 hearing aid he had did little to help him hear better. I was one of the few people he could chat with because I have a loud and fairly deep voice that he could hear. He often was offended by others who felt the need to shout and downright yell so he could hear them.

Dad saw to it that I wore ear plugs when I mowed the lawn and encouraged me to wear them whenever I did anything that involved loud noise. I've only been to a few concerts where I didn't wear some kind of ear protection, and yes I still really enjoyed the concert.

I wear ear plugs every day at work while other people who do the same job as I do don't bother with them. At the end of the day, I walk out of there with no ear ringing and I feel less fatigued because I didn't have to deal with loud noise for 8 hours. Earlier this year when I had my work physical they gave me a hearing test, and I scored better than an average woman of my age. I hope to do so for a long time.


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## Search (Jul 5, 2009)

SureFire isn't electronic.

It uses the Hocks Noise Brake System.


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## Patriot (Jul 5, 2009)

Radiophile said:


> I don't want to sound like a jerk here, but my hearing is far too important to me to risk it with some electronic device.





Hello radiophile, sorry to hear about your dad having so much trouble hearing. I've known a couple of people in my life who have also had more than a normal amount of difficulty as they've aged.

Regarding the topic of electronic devices I didn't know if you were saying that you had heard something bad about them or that you were just sharing the story of your father to illustrate how it was important for you to be much more careful than your father was. In any case, I don't know of a single example where an electronic muff or plug ever damaged someone's ears. 

Electronic plugs and muffs are very conventional in the sense that they prevent unsafe DB levels from making their way into the ear canal. That is to say that a electronic muff when turned off behaves exactly like a regular non-electronic ear muff and an electronic ear plug when turned off behaves exactly like a regular non-electronic ear plug when turned off. All the electronic portion does is relays quiet or normal sounds to the ear via tiny speakers. You hear the lowest sound levels slightly amplified and normal sounds such as speech at a normal level. As soon as you clap your hands, slam a book on the desk, or fire a gun, the impulse noise is canceled. In other words the perception of a gun shot is exactly the same as a non-electronic muff since at that very micro second the muff essentially shuts itself off. Unlike even most MP3 players, the electronic muff or plug can't even be turned up to a point in which the tiny speakers could ever harm your ear drum. The amplitude just isn't very high.

I've been shooting with electronic muffs since their release way back when they became reasonably priced. I'm going to just guess and say that was about 1980, at least that's when I was introduced to them as a young teen. I think that they're actually safer than conventional protection because they stay on most of the time and don't impede normal activities. With conventional protection you might take them off to talk to someone or to eat food or something and that's always when someone on the shooting line cracks off a large caliber rifle and catches you off guard.

My dream electronic plugs are by Walkers but at several hundred dollars I just can't justify them since my Peltors work so well and cost me $79 on sale. I only dream about the others because plugs are so much more comfortable in hot weather. Muffs out here in the summer time leave the sides of your head drenched with sweat. :sweat:


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## Radiophile (Jul 5, 2009)

What I guess I didn't get across is that hearing protection is important to me for a very good reason. I'm sure that foam and silicone ear plugs work, so I'm sticking with them and recommend them over other types. As a bonus, they're cheap!

Muffs alone don't work for me so electronic muffs don't appeal to me. Neither does their price.

I'd never heard of the Hocks Nose Breakers until Search mentioned them. They appear interesting if their NRR is accurate. I read that unless you have the custom molded models the attenuation of lower frequencies is not very good, and I need low frequency attenuation.


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## Roberts30 (Jul 5, 2009)

Personally, I do just fine shooting with a pair of over the ear headphone hearing protection. But you may need to put "ear plugs" in and then put on over the ear hearing protection on. (if your firearm is very loud)


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## alpg88 (Jul 5, 2009)

any earmuffs should be fine for glock, especially outdoor, i don't even use any when shooting .22. 
IMO you if you use gun for home defence, you should not use earmuffs all the time, you don't want unusual and new loud bang (since you never heard shots live) disorient you, during home invasion, when you got to have as much situational awareness as you can. in real life you wont use ear protection. and a second delay, might cost you or your loved ones dearly. 
IMO you have to be used to sound, muzzle flash, and recoil, none of it should be distracting. 
at the range i use earmuffs that i bought in home depot while back, work great. for me at least


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## Radiophile (Jul 6, 2009)

alpg88 said:


> any earmuffs should be fine for glock, especially outdoor, i don't even use any when shooting .22.
> IMO you if you use gun for home defence, you should not use earmuffs all the time, you don't want unusual and new loud bang (since you never heard shots live) disorient you, during home invasion, when you got to have as much situational awareness as you can. in real life you wont use ear protection. and a second delay, might cost you or your loved ones dearly.
> IMO you have to be used to sound, muzzle flash, and recoil, none of it should be distracting.
> at the range i use earmuffs that i bought in home depot while back, work great. for me at least



Wow - so I should go deaf practicing for the possibility of a crime? Did I read that right?

I've used no ear plugs when I was the only person on the range and shooting a .22 rifle, but I always use them when shooting handguns - even .22s.


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## Patriot (Jul 6, 2009)

> Radiophile
> What I guess I didn't get across is that hearing protection is important to me for a very good reason


Actually, I think you got that across quite well. I understood.




> Radiophile
> I'm sure that foam and silicone ear plugs work, so I'm sticking with them


That makes sense and is also easy to understand. I explained the electronic devices because you gave the impression that they presented some level of "risk" which they do not.



> Radiophile
> I've used no ear plugs when I was the only person on the range and shooting a .22 rifle, but I always use them when shooting handguns - even .22s.


I have some bad news for you then Radiophile. Since any sound above 85-90 decibels can be harmful, a .22 rifle is slowing damaging your ears at over 100 decibels depending on the type of action of the firearm. I place it into the category of exposure to something we sense as loud but don't actually realize that it's causing damage...sort of like a shop vac. No firearm, unless sufficiently suppressed, should ever be fired without hearing protection. 

With regards to *alpg88's* post, 

I do not agree with his take on practicing without hearing protection in an effort to, in my own words, acclimate the senses in preparation of a life threatening situation. We all know that guns are loud and the body naturally expects what is coming. When the brain is completely focused or occupied with something much more pressing and urgent it pushes your sensitivity to sound to the background. Even hunters can relate to firing at a once in a lifetime, big game animal, with a large caliber rifle. I'll speak from experience that I never even notice the heavy recoil, never mind the sonic report from the muzzle. I just don't think that experiencing weekly, naked eared shooting would give the defender some decided advantage during the act of protecting themselves. I'm sure there is some data available about this notion but I'm too tired to start searching for it at the moment. Either way, the disadvantages would far outweigh the benefits. Why would a person practically guarantee themselves years of diminished hearing in order to supposedly gain them a slight tactical advantage for a ten second encounter that will likely never happen, statistically speaking? :thinking:

Just my 2 cents.


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## alpg88 (Jul 6, 2009)

Radiophile said:


> Wow - so I should go deaf practicing for the possibility of a crime? Did I read that right?
> 
> .



if you did you'd notice i said "you should not use earmuffs all the time". meaning some times use no muffs, 
and no you wont go deaf form few rounds without muffs, i know quite a few ex military that pretty much never used ear protection during their service, including me, guess what, none went deaf. 
you can't win a real race practicing on playstation, shooting isn't much different.
unless your goal is just shooting paper , than like i said you should be just fine with any earmuffs (just not the ones that made to warm your ears in the winter), especially outdoors.


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## Patriot (Jul 6, 2009)

I'm very glad that you didn't go "deaf" but I'd also be surprised if you didn't lose some amount of hearing if you were exposed to enough muzzle blast. I only say that because the trap and skeet ranges up here are full of retired guys who shot for years without ear protection. The all proclaim how stupid they were to neglect their hearing and have turned their preaching to the younger generation about saving their thiers. It sounds like a good dose of wisdom to me. 

No disrespect meant, but the analogy of the playstation doesn't quite work for me. It would work if the the guy practicing for tactical scenarios was using one of those little blue or red, spring loaded dart guns with the suction cups on the end, for training. Obviously the differences between tactical firearms training and a child's dart gun are huge, as are the difference between a game console and a real race car. 

Instead, I'd liken the lack of ear plugs while shooting to the exact same lack of earplugs while driving an open header'd race car. You can do it and you might even get more audible feed back from the level of grip in the tires but at the same time you're doing irreversible damage to your hearing. 

Since saving your hearing is a win, win, situation and professionals train daily while using hearing protection, I'm unable to think of an analogy which would support forgoing hearing protection, even if occasionally.


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## binky (Jul 6, 2009)

Search said:


> SureFire isn't electronic.
> 
> It uses the Hocks Noise Brake System.



SureFire lists EP-3 at only 16 dB noise reduction (NRR), and the EP-4 at 19. 
The $20 Peltor earmuffs are 30 dB.

While far less obtrusive than the Peltor's, the SureFire's seem to offer only 1/10 the sound reduction, don't they? Am I missing something important? I want to get this right.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Jul 6, 2009)

I used to advocate letting off one or two rounds a year without hearing protection, for exactly the same reasons Alpg88 mentioned.

Then I had a couple encounters where I had to draw my firearm and was taking up the slack in the trigger when the bad guys ran away. Being "used" to hearing unprotected gunfire wouldn't have made a damned bit of difference, I was too focused to hear the shot or feel the recoil.

I no longer advocate shooting without hearing protection, even "just" a .22.

:buddies:


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## NeonLights (Jul 6, 2009)

Suggesting shooting any firearm that isn't suppressed without hearing protection is horrible advice (an exception being self defense, but few people are ever in such a situation). No, you won't go deaf, but you can, and likely will suffer permanent hearing damage. A couple of boxes of .357 and 12 ga when I was a teenager was enough to do it for me, I occasionally wore hearing protection, but didn't at least half the time. 

Just because you don't go deaf doesn't mean your hearing isn't damaged. I have had a constant ringing in my ears for about ten years now, never goes away, I also have noticeable hearing loss in the upper ranges, and I'm not even 40 yet. My doctor said most of the damage is likely due to shooting without hearing protection. I now wear either foam earplugs or inexpensive over-the-ear muffs, or sometimes both, when shooting, even .22LR. 

I do have a friend who went to the expense and bother of getting a suppressor for his AR-15 he uses for home defense. With the suppressor installed shooting .223 it sounds about like a .22 long, with the .22LR converter kit installed, all you hear is the action cycling. His reasoning is so his hearing (and that of his family) won't be damaged if he ever needs to use his AR inside for home defense.


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## LukeA (Jul 6, 2009)

binky said:


> SureFire lists EP-3 at only 16 dB noise reduction (NRR), and the EP-4 at 19.
> The $20 Peltor earmuffs are 30 dB.
> 
> While far less obtrusive than the Peltor's, the SureFire's seem to offer only 1/10 the sound reduction, don't they? Am I missing something important? I want to get this right.



My $.16/pair earplugs are 33dB, so count me among those who don't get the SFs.


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## Search (Jul 6, 2009)

The way I understood it was with the stoppers in (it has little caps that plug the holes that allows noise to come through that is blocked with the Hocks Noise Breaker).

I know I've shot an M16 for 6 hours straight and the noise came through the same level as people yelling. Which was still VERY comfortable.


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## KC2IXE (Jul 7, 2009)

I have a nice set of non electronic muffs, and a whole box of disposable earplugs, and I wear both on the range. That said, I just bought a set of electronic muffs - no, they are NOT as good, but I didn't buy them for actual "on the range" use. I work the kitchen oh, 20-30 yards from the firing line quite often. You can ALMOST get away with no hearing protection - most of the time!! I got the electronic muffs to wear there - so I can hear while taking orders, and when the occasional guy with a thunderboomer starts up on the range, I don't end up deaf


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## Lightraven (Jul 7, 2009)

If you fire off a few shots without hearing protection and hit the target, then that's about all the training of this type that is required. You get the experience and keep the hearing damage to a minimum.

I have experience shooting everything from a .22 to a 105mm. I have rarely shot without hearing protection for various reasons, including "non paper" shooting.

Given the choice between good hearing and shooting experience without protection for the various types of criminal encounters, I choose good hearing every time. I can sneak up on my dad with a marching band because of his hearing damage from his year on an aircraft carrier during the Korean War. That is not the deficiency you want clearing a building.


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## BigHonu (Jul 9, 2009)

Disposable foam plugs (inserted correctly) AND muffs for me regardless of what I'm shooting. The only thing I might consider shooting on a consistent basis without hearing protection are 'sub-sonic' or 'standard velocity' .22lr out of a full length rifle. Not much louder than your average pellet gun.

I was looking at the Surefire plugs as well, but their advertising is confusing. Anything over 80db gets reduced to 80db, but their NRR rating is only 16db? How does that work?


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## greenLED (Jul 9, 2009)

Illum said:


> A little off topic but any word on using them off the range?


Yes, I've worn my EP3's for 4-6 hours while using power tools - very comfortable. I couldn't do that with foam plugs because after a while the pressure against my ear canals gets uncomfortable.

I have a pair of ProEars Dimension II electronic muffs for range use. I got them after I got tired of missing range commands because the foam plugs were in too tight. I'd have to take the plugs out to listen to commands, and then scramble to get them back in my ear before shooting.

I like my ProEars very much. However, once in a while a shot will "squeeze past" the seals and I get the full blast - not good. I haven't gone shooting in a few months, but next time I hit the range I'll be doubling up EP3 + ProEars.


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## BigHonu (Jul 9, 2009)

GreenLed, do you find the SF plugs adequate for range use by themselves?


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## V8TOYTRUCK (Jul 10, 2009)

I use foam plugs as I try to hit the range 2x a month. $.14/cents a pair and a high NRR. Also during the summer months its too hot to have my ears covered, plus they get in the way of getting a comfortable cheek weld on my rifles. I will give those EP3s a shot though.


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## Search (Jul 10, 2009)

BigHonu said:


> GreenLed, do you find the SF plugs adequate for range use by themselves?


 
Over 10 hours combined with constant handgun and M16/M4 firing.

Every sound came through at the same level and I never had a head ache or anything caused from ear plug pressure or loud noises.

Plus, I kept them in all day, no handling plugs or muffs.


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## Patriot (Jul 10, 2009)

Just a not-so-quick revisit about the notion of having some tactical advantage, if you've been previously exposed to muzzle blast as a shooter, without hearing protection. 

I have to remind myself that many people have never heard a gunshot while without ear protection, so this whole topic might be a bit mysterious for some. It's funny to me that during the times I've introduced new people to shooting, they sometimes want to take their protection off to hear a shot, as a bystander. It seems they simply want to experience the sound once because they're inquisitive. They wonder about things like the level of sound, how much the air muffs/plugs really do, etc, etc. I tell them that's fine but make them stand back a safe distance appropriate to the gun being fired. Needless to say the new shooters are mightily impressed and surprised at the volume of the sound and quickly, with wide eyes, put their muffs back on! Initially I always get a kick and a chuckle from this because it reminds me of the things I take for granted as a very experienced shooter. I was so young the last time that I consciously wondered about such a thing that it's difficult for me to remember what that was like. 

Since that time I've experience so many unprotected shots as a shooter while hunting, as a bystander from tens of yards away, and to 3 really bad accidental discharges in enclosed spaces. None were mine by the way, but I was unfortunately exposed to the sound. Now when I hunt with a firearm I always try my best to either wear hearing protection, as in hunting foul, or put on hearing protection before a single shot, as in large game hunting. I guess you could say I "wised up" to the idea of hunting with ear protection but it wasn't a hot topic for hunters 25 year ago. Today we know better. 

Since I've experienced unprotected shots either through ignorance or accident I can say definitively that there is no reason as a shooter to intentionally expose yourself to the blast, unless of course it occurs during the actual act of self defense. When you're the shooter and expecting the sonic impulse of the gun upon firing, it's rather easy to deal with mentally. This is what I'd refer to as to hunter's shot. Since you're doing the shooting, it's loud but comes as no surprise. Likewise is the case if others around you who are also shooting but you're expecting it, as in the case of foul hunting where you'd be separated by 15-50 yards. When it comes to the issue of "tactical advantage" it has much more to do with the expectation of the shot than the sound itself. During an actual event, the sound goes pretty much unnoticed and that's even the case for the hunter. It does nothing to effect them at the time of the shot but perhaps after all the excitement is over they might notice some ringing in their ears or temporary deafness depending on the caliber and environment around them.  

The unprotected shot only ranges from shocking to petrifying when you're not expecting it, which is made exponentially worse if your in an enclosed space and it was presupposed there would be no shot. Those are terrible and it wouldn't matter how many times you tried to build up a tolerance for something like that it would help any. I was once in a 8 x 8 foot tile bathroom when a officers length .45 was discharged and I lost most of my fine hearing for a good 12 hours. Undoubtedly some long term damage was done. If you were exposed to that every day, you'd never get used to it but would go deaf in short time. 

In any case, if a new shooter is simply inquisitive about the sonic blast of certain guns then let someone else who is protected, fire it while outdoors, while you stand back, directly behind them a good 7 yards and double the distance with centerfire rifles. It's still not good for the ears but it will let you satisfy your questions with minimal harm. Another way would be to visit a local trap and skeet club. You can experience a lot of unprotected shots while standing back 25 or 30 yards. If it gets uncomfortable, move further away or put on your protection. 

Not sure if that helps anyone but I hate to leave my unmentioned thoughts hanging.


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## Search (Jul 10, 2009)

Stand near the end of a short barrel M4 without a good flash suppressor or suppressor and your going to want more than ear plugs.

Even better when the same gun in firing from a stack right behind you


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## Patriot (Jul 10, 2009)

Search said:


> Stand near the end of a short barrel M4 without a good flash suppressor or suppressor and your going to want more than ear plugs.




I've only found that comps and *flash* suppressors increase perceived blast to the sides and rear. Once while firing a 16" carbine with JP muzzle break, through a barricade, it shattered a piece of 1x2 wood framing which went flying though the air ... lol. It freaked out the R.O. so bad that not realizing at first what happened he stopped the stage. After reviewing, I was allowed to re-shoot the stage.


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## binky (Jul 10, 2009)

My ears ring like crazy but I can't imagine attributing the ringing to only gunshots. There are tons of loud things around and this good thread is making me think about training my kids better than I have about ear protection. I don't remember ever, ever seeing anyone wear ear protection at my camp or skeet ranges when I was a kid, but there are just so many other things too. 

For me the worst might have been a Peter Frampton comeback tour concert I went to way back in ~ '79. His output was obviously sized more for a football stadium but the concert was in a tiny gymnasium. I definitely remember my ears rang for 2 days after that one.

There was also the innocent-seeming freshman dance in the school lunch hall area where the music blasting from the Bose 901's got so loud that my ears only heard a whoosh sound, like a jet engine. That was a new experience for me. I remember wondering about it for a very long time.

I was also a drummer.
I had a go-kart and my head was right next to the engine's crummy 2" muffler.
I played with cap guns. I bet I blasted more than a few right next to my ears.

Gunshots are definitely in the category of dangerously loud, but many things in life are.

I'm not going to let my 10 yr old mow the lawn any more without wearing some level of ear protection, and I'll suffer the "aw, Dad!" reaction as he watches the neighbors mow without anything. The kids should learn early.


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## BigHonu (Jul 10, 2009)

Search said:


> Stand near the end of a short barrel M4 without a good flash suppressor or suppressor and your going to want more than ear plugs.
> 
> Even better when the same gun in firing from a stack right behind you



At our range we have benches set up where guys can shoot prone or offhand between benches. One day, a guy was between the benches right next to me shooting his semi-auto, braked .308. BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM. What made it worse was that he was shooting prone, so my position was closer to the muzzle than I would have liked. That was LOUD even with plugs and muffs.

Thanks for sharing your experirenes with the SF plugs.


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## greenLED (Jul 10, 2009)

BigHonu said:


> GreenLed, do you find the SF plugs adequate for range use by themselves?


Sorry, BigHonu, but I haven't used the EP3's on their own while at the range. I'm hoping to do that in the next month or so.

Given Search's experience, I'd say they're adequate, at least on an open range. Indoor ranges are a different story, I'd imagine.


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## LukeA (Jul 10, 2009)

BigHonu said:


> At our range we have benches set up where guys can shoot prone or offhand between benches. One day, a guy was between the benches right next to me shooting his semi-auto, braked .308. BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM. What made it worse was that he was shooting prone, so my position was closer to the muzzle than I would have liked. That was LOUD even with plugs and muffs.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your experirenes with the SF plugs.



A muzzle brake will damage your ears even with plugs and muffs on.


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## LukeA (Jul 10, 2009)

Search said:


> Stand near the end of a short barrel M4 without a good flash suppressor or suppressor and your going to want more than ear plugs.
> 
> Even better when the same gun in firing from a stack right behind you



SBR .223 = poor man's flashbang. The pressure released by the bullet leaving the barrel is immense.


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## geepondy (Jul 10, 2009)

Kind of an oddball question but when my partner is shooting, from an acoustic standpoint, is it better to stand beside him or behind him?


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## Search (Jul 11, 2009)

I've never been to an indoor range as I have a free outdoor range owned by the department.

Another Reserve works at the local range and when he instructs hand gun classes and works in the actual firing area he uses his EP3s.

Matter of fact, I think they all use them.


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