# When are we going to get a 'new' LED?



## CoolHands (Dec 2, 2007)

All the flashlights re pretty similar in performance now - use Cr123's & a Q5? whats the difference between them? Not much :scowl:

Why can't someone make an LED that is very different or make a board that uses far less energy so the LED lasts waaay longer than their competition?

bored :tinfoil:

need some *innovation*!


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## LukeA (Dec 2, 2007)

CoolHands said:


> Why can't someone make an LED that is very different or make a board that uses far less energy so the LED lasts waaay longer than their competition?



A different LED would require a giant investment and risk by whoever made it.

A board that uses less energy? Do you mean more efficiency, because there's not really very much room for improvement there. Do you mean a board that supplies the LED with less power, but for longer?


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## dcbeane (Dec 2, 2007)

"A different LED would require a giant investment and risk by whoever made it." 

CREE is doing this constantly. They are investing mucho $$ into the next LED all the time. As a company they must remain on the bleeding edge of technology or be eaten alive by cheap to manufacture Taiwan etc.

70% brighter greens : (I know still an X-Lamp)
http://www.cree.com/press/press_detail.asp?i=1195568149752


1050 lumens from a cool white single-die!!
http://www.cree.com/press/press_detail.asp?i=1189169857943
This one is a lab event as of now though....and still an X-Lamp but they have more tricks in the hopper ...trust me.:huh:
This LED is aimed at general lighting but perhaps someone will use it for other things as well.

Press Room 
Cree Achieves 1,000 Lumens from a Single LED
DURHAM, NC, SEPTEMBER 7, 2007 — Cree, Inc. (Nasdaq: CREE), a leader in LED lighting components, today announced it has demonstrated light output of more than 1,000 lumens – an amount equivalent to the output level of a standard household light bulb – from a single R&D LED. Cree’s achievement demonstrates continued leadership in the development of LEDs that can make traditional light bulbs obsolete.

A single-die LED, driven at four amps, produced 1,050 lumens in cool white and 760 lumens in a warm-white version. Efficacy of the cool-white LED was 72 lumens per watt and 52 lumens per watt from the warm-white device. Both LED versions operated at substantially higher efficacy levels than those of today’s conventional light bulbs. Historically, Cree’s R&D demonstrations generally have been commercialized within 12 to 24 months.

“Cree’s XLamp® LEDs are the best-performing commercially available LEDs, but we won’t be satisfied until light bulbs are obsolete,” comments John Edmond, Cree co-founder and director of advanced optoelectronics. “We’ve worked 20 years to achieve lighting-class LED performance, and we still have plenty of ways to advance the technology further.”


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## LukeA (Dec 2, 2007)

dcbeane said:


> ...



I know that manufacturers are always developing new emitters, but they won't take the technology in a completely different direction without a lot of pressure.


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## this_is_nascar (Dec 2, 2007)

CoolHands said:


> All the flashlights re pretty similar in performance now - use Cr123's & a Q5? whats the difference between them? Not much :scowl:
> 
> Why can't someone make an LED that is very different or make a board that uses far less energy so the LED lasts waaay longer than their competition?
> 
> ...



What are you talking about? The latest/greatest technology is being used by those who desire to use it. Your question is similar to someone asking "why doesn't a car maker use something that get 1000k per gallon and uses water as it's energy source? That answer to both questions is, because the technology hasn't advanced to that level yet.


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## CoolHands (Dec 2, 2007)

LukeA said:


> A board that uses less energy? Do you mean more efficiency, because there's not really very much room for improvement there. Do you mean a board that supplies the LED with less power, but for longer?



yeah - but there must be more efficiency to come? After all, I thought we all believed a couple of years ago that LEDs didn't use hardly any power. That's what we were always told (as members of the public). Now they've got this great performance out of them we realise that actually, they _do _use quite a bit of power. But, surely they can become more efficient.

Also, what is slightly frustrating is the similarity between different manufacturers with regards to performance.


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## LukeA (Dec 2, 2007)

CoolHands said:


> yeah - but there must be more efficiency to come? After all, I thought we all believed a couple of years ago that LEDs didn't use hardly any power. That's what we were always told (as members of the public). Now they've got this great performance out of them we realise that actually, they _do _use quite a bit of power. But, surely they can become more efficient.
> 
> Also, what is slightly frustrating is the similarity between different manufacturers with regards to performance.



Regulator boards can be as much as 93% efficient. Current LEDs top out at around 40% efficient. There is improvement there.


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## Bearcat (Dec 2, 2007)

Frankly, I'm fed up with overly super bright lights with super short run-times. Give me a reasonable and adequate brightness with a longer run-time.


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## savumaki (Dec 2, 2007)

Nirvana is perpetual motion .


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## LEDninja (Dec 2, 2007)

I bought an elektrolumens Lucidus XR-1 1AA Cree. It is only slightly brighter than my Luxeon L1P but it has 3-1/2 hours runtime.

That is why they make multi-level lights nowadays. Very bright for 1/2 hour or very dim for a day.


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## Bearcat (Dec 2, 2007)

LEDninja said:


> I bought an elektrolumens Lucidus XR-1 1AA Cree. It is only slightly brighter than my Luxeon L1P but it has 3-1/2 hours runtime.
> 
> *That is why they make multi-level lights nowadays*. Very bright for 1/2 hour or very dim for a day.


 
Right, but the focus today is on how super bright a light is period, not on a reasonable bright light with a long useful run-time light.


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## Khaytsus (Dec 2, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> Frankly, I'm fed up with overly super bright lights with super short run-times. Give me a reasonable and adequate brightness with a longer run-time.



Well that's why there are multi-mode lights... Here's a summary of real world performance from a Fenix P2D on Energizer E2 lithium primaries:

Turbo: 110l for 48m, dropping to about 50l in 7m and nothing in 67m
High: 64l for 160m (2.7h), dropping to nothing in 35m
Med: 32l for 420m (7h), dropping to nothing in 40m
Low: 23l for 1900m (31.7h), dropping to nothing 'soon' after (probably 1-2h really)

I personally use low about 95% of the time, so 32 hours on a $1.62 battery is very reasonable IMO.


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## Marduke (Dec 2, 2007)

CoolHands said:


> yeah - but there must be more efficiency to come? After all, I thought we all believed a couple of years ago that LEDs didn't use hardly any power. That's what we were always told (as members of the public). Now they've got this great performance out of them we realise that actually, they _do _use quite a bit of power. But, surely they can become more efficient.
> 
> Also, what is slightly frustrating is the similarity between different manufacturers with regards to performance.



I really don't understand your point. LED's are head and shoulders more efficient than incans, but we can't get something for nothing, so of course they use power. They make lights that are very bright for a short time, very dim for a very long time, or multimode lights that can do both, and are very efficient at doing it. I mean, take a light like the P3D Q5 and it can blast you with 215 lumens, but can also run at 15 lumens for *55 hours*. Pal lights can run for *over a year* with enough light to navigate in the dark. Show me anything else in those form factors that could do that a couple years ago.

And this keep improving. We are getting the new R-bins, and beyond every couple months now.


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## Bearcat (Dec 2, 2007)

Khaytsus said:


> Well that's why there are multi-mode lights... Here's a summary of real world performance from a Fenix P2D on Energizer E2 lithium primaries:
> 
> Turbo: 110l for 48m, dropping to about 50l in 7m and nothing in 67m
> High: 64l for 160m (2.7h), dropping to nothing in 35m
> ...


 

Let me clarify, single AAA key-chain lights that are super bright with short run-times on rechargeable batteries.


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## Marduke (Dec 2, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> Let me clarify, single AAA key-chain lights that are super bright with short run-times on rechargeable batteries.



I beg to differ, since lights like the LOD exist. You can get 11 lumens for 8.5 hours, or 75 lumens for 1 hour, your choice.


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## LEDninja (Dec 2, 2007)

coolhands
join date sep 2007
3 months later
bored dec 2007

You should be glad you do not have to wait 20 years for maglight to come out with the magled. And then it turned out to be a luxeon, 1/2 as bright as a Cree XRE P3 bin!!!

We have gone through Cree P3, P4, Q2, Q4 & Q5 bins since last november. It took Nichia over 10 years to go from AS to BS to CS to the just released DS 5mm led. We are living in interesting times.***

Car manufacturers update their models every year.
Computer manufacturers update their models every 6 months.
In the last year some flashlight manufacturers are introducing a new model every 2 months.

C'mon now, how many torches have you worn out in the last 3 months? You don't need a new one until the old one died.

*** May you live in interesting times is an old Chinese curse. It is especially hard on the wallet here on CPF.


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## Bearcat (Dec 2, 2007)

Marduke said:


> I beg to differ, since lights like the LOD exist. You can get 11 lumens for 8.5 hours, or 75 lumens for 1 hour, your choice.


 
You are correct, BUT rather than say 75 lumens for 1 hour, how about 50 lumens for 2+ hours? I just think that the brightness is a little out whack with a reasonable run-time.

The LOD Q4 is hard to argue against, but it can be improved.


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## Marduke (Dec 2, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> You are correct, BUT rather than say 75 lumens for 1 hour, how about 50 lumens for 2+ hours? I just think that the brightness is a little out whack with a reasonable run-time.
> 
> The LOD Q4 is hard to argue against, but it can be improved.



How about 30 lumens for 3.5 hours?? You won't see much of a different between 30 and 50 anyhow.

And of course lights are being improved, every day. Seems like every couple weeks a brand new light is coming out. Hell, the LOD Q4 was just released, and before too long we'll probably be looking at R2's in a "easter special edition" or something like that.


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## Lobo (Dec 2, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> You are correct, BUT rather than say 75 lumens for 1 hour, how about 50 lumens for 2+ hours? I just think that the brightness is a little out whack with a reasonable run-time.
> 
> The LOD Q4 is hard to argue against, but it can be improved.



I really don't get your point here. It's a multilevel, if you want to run it for a long time, use a lower level. If you want bright, you can do that also. It's like having a long running ARC AAA etc, but with the option of REALLY bright. If you want bright for a long time, a single AAA is not the best solution...
Or are you complaining that it doesnt have exactly 50 lumens? :thinking:

Get another light (maybe infinite brightness like LF2, Nitecore, titan etc) that runs at 50 lumens.


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## WadeF (Dec 2, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> You are correct, BUT rather than say 75 lumens for 1 hour, how about 50 lumens for 2+ hours? I just think that the brightness is a little out whack with a reasonable run-time.
> 
> The LOD Q4 is hard to argue against, but it can be improved.


 

Five output modes: 30 Lumens(3.5hrs) -> 11 Lumens(8.5hrs) -> 75 Lumens(1hrs) 

Have you looked into the LOD-CE Q4, and other AAA lights, to see what they are capable of? LOD Q4 turns on at 30 Lumens, runs for 3.5hrs. Considering 30 lumens is more than a lot of run of the mill incans are putting out, I would think that's what you'r looking for, enough light to see by, and long run times, from a AAA keychain light.


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## LEDninja (Dec 2, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> You are correct, BUT rather than say 75 lumens for 1 hour, how about 50 lumens for 2+ hours? I just think that the brightness is a little out whack with a reasonable run-time.
> 
> The LOD Q4 is hard to argue against, but it can be improved.


I like to use the default mode of my AAA lights. But.....
L0P SE (12 lumens) - I need more light >> twist twist > oops under 1 hour
L0D CE (20 lumens) - Just a little bit more >> twist twist > oops under 1 hour
Bright red Xmas special (30 lumens, 3.5 hours???) - Might just do the trick >> you guys are a bad influence on my wallet. Never considered another L0D CE since I already have 2.


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## Taboot (Dec 2, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> Frankly, I'm fed up with overly super bright lights with super short run-times. Give me a reasonable and adequate brightness with a longer run-time.


 
I guess I understand, but I really like the 200plus lumens for an hour plus from the current CREE (Q5). For me an hour or so is plenty. I would take a 400 lumen LED that only went a 1/2 hour even. There's always rechargables. "Reasonable and adequate" is pretty tough to define. For me, reasonable is blinding and adequate is just south of the Luxor light.

T


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## Bearcat (Dec 2, 2007)

WadeF said:


> Five output modes: 30 Lumens(3.5hrs) -> 11 Lumens(8.5hrs) -> 75 Lumens(1hrs)
> 
> Have you looked into the LOD-CE Q4, and other AAA lights, to see what they are capable of? LOD Q4 turns on at 30 Lumens, runs for 3.5hrs. Considering 30 lumens is more than a lot of run of the mill incans are putting out, I would think that's what you'r looking for, enough light to see by, and long run times, from a AAA keychain light.


 
Yes, and it is just about as perfect of a key-chain on the market today. However, the high mode could be a little less bright so it could have at least 2+ hours run-time. Ditch the SOS and Flash modes.

Yeah, yeah, I know I'm going to be sorry for not having those modes and might go to Hell:devil:, but a lot of Arc owners are in the same boat with me.

I'm thinking along the line of a Fenix EO with the new DS or better LED. That would give me around 10 lumens and 10+ hours of regulated run-time in a simple single mode light.


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## BentHeadTX (Dec 2, 2007)

Back in 2002 I had a minimag with a LuxeonI that pushed around 25 lumens at the LED when driven at 1.7 watts by two AA cells for less than two hours. My L0D Q4 now is brighter with one AAA for three hours! 

The original (2005/2006) L2P 2AA Luxeon R bin put out around 60 lumens at the LuxeonI R bin. My L0D Q4 outblasts it on high from a single AAA Eneloop cell. 

I don't get it, a single AAA keychain light is as bright as the latest Nichia DS LED but runs longer, can outblast the original LuxeonI LED and outrun it with a fifth of the power. It will then crank out more lumens than the highest firepower 2AA light from a year ago on ONE AAA NiMH cell. 

Don't make the output less, keep it the same since it rocks to have serious firepower and serious runtime on a keychain light. They could make low a bit lower to increase runtime to say 12 hours but I'm not too concerned. 

I am not complaining!


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## Marduke (Dec 2, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> Yes, and it is just about as perfect of a key-chain on the market today. However, the high mode could be a little less bright so it could have at least 2+ hours run-time. Ditch the SOS and Flash modes.



Isn't that the point of a medium mode?? You have a low level long runtime mode, a high mode, and a medium to split the difference. Are you simple not liking that they went from 30 lumens at 3.5 hours to 75 lumens at 1 hour, and skipped 50 lumens in the middle?


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## Bearcat (Dec 2, 2007)

Marduke said:


> Isn't that the point of a medium mode?? You have a low level long runtime mode, a high mode, and a medium to split the difference. Are you simple not liking that they went from 30 lumens at 3.5 hours to 75 lumens at 1 hour, and skipped 50 lumens in the middle?


 
Right, I'm just saying that I would be happier with the longer run-time and less bright on a AAA key-chain light. We just get brighter lights every time a new LED comes out, not longer run-times. There has to be a balance point somewhere. Realistically how bright is bright enough for a key-chain light and what is too short of a run-time?


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## asdalton (Dec 2, 2007)

LEDninja said:


> coolhands
> join date sep 2007
> 3 months later
> bored dec 2007
> ...



Indeed.

I started reading CPF in late 2002, and my first Luxeon light was an Arc LS rev. 1 hybrid. Four years later, the lumens/watt of readily available Luxeons had improved about 2 bins, from P/Q to R/S. (The Luxeon V and III improved total output, but not efficiency.)

Then the Cree XRE came out, giving us not only an immediate 2X efficiency improvement but a steady improvement in bins after that. And we have two new LED products: the Seoul and Rebel. So it makes no sense to me to call the pace of development in the past few months slow.

I have also learned to choose flashlights as an integrated product, not merely a vehicle for the hottest LED bin of the month. I recommend this strategy as a means of saving one's sanity and wallet. (OK, maybe just the first one.  )


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## Marduke (Dec 2, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> Right, I'm just saying that I would be happier with the longer run-time and less bright on a AAA key-chain light. We just get brighter lights every time a new LED comes out, not longer run-times. There has to be a balance point somewhere. Realistically how bright is bright enough for a key-chain light and what is too short of a run-time?


 
Every time a new LED comes out, we get both, by the nature of the technology. All the good multimode lights that come out have both a low and high mode, so you can choose to burn out retnias with a light brighter than the last generation, or have a low output that runs longer than the old generation. It sounds like you just want a medium mode. There are pleanty of lights out there that aldready do exactly what you want, so maybe if you tell us what you're looking for, we can name the exact light.


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## Bearcat (Dec 2, 2007)

Marduke said:


> Every time a new LED comes out, we get both, by the nature of the technology. All the good multimode lights that come out have both a low and high mode, so you can choose to burn out retnias with a light brighter than the last generation, or have a low output that runs longer than the old generation. It sounds like you just want a medium mode. There are pleanty of lights out there that aldready do exactly what you want, so maybe if you tell us what you're looking for, we can name the exact light.


 
Actually, I think they are pushing the LEDs too hard in the real high modes at the expense of run-times. Three modes is fine, low low, medium, med-high. Man, I've been doing my best not to order that little red LOD Q4 that I dreamed about last night.


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## Art Vandelay (Dec 2, 2007)

Cree has come up with some fantastic LEDs. I heard about another North Carolina company that had just come up with an impressive advance to LEDs. I forgot the name of the company but somebody around here will know it.


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## Marduke (Dec 2, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> Actually, I think they are pushing the LEDs too hard in the real high modes at the expense of run-times.



So, use medium....

But it's always nice to have the option for more if you need it. Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it.


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## greg_in_canada (Dec 2, 2007)

Has anyone ever plotted the lumens/watt and total lumens versus year (for power LEDs)? I think that would show that 2007 was a very good year and that LED manufacturers aren't sitting still.

Greg


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## WadeF (Dec 2, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> Yes, and it is just about as perfect of a key-chain on the market today. However, the high mode could be a little less bright so it could have at least 2+ hours run-time. Ditch the SOS and Flash modes.


 
What would be the point of having 30 and 50 lumens? You'd hardly notice the difference. Going to 75 makes more sense because it's a little more than twice the output, what our eyes need to really notice a difference in light intenity. 

Also isn't 30 lumens more than the Arc AAA Premium is putting out? 

SOS and Strobe are the last modes. When you turn on the LOD-CE Q4 it is in medium. You don't need to fiddle with it anymore. Are you planning on using your AAA keychain light for tactical purposes, like momentary on, etc?


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## Marduke (Dec 2, 2007)

WadeF said:


> What would be the point of having 30 and 50 lumens? You'd hardly notice the difference. Going to 75 makes more sense because it's a little more than twice the output, what our eyes need to really notice a difference in light intenity.
> 
> Also isn't 30 lumens more than the Arc AAA Premium is putting out?
> 
> SOS and Strobe are the last modes. When you turn on the LOD-CE Q4 it is in medium. You don't need to fiddle with it anymore. Are you planning on using your AAA keychain light for tactical purposes, like momentary on, etc?



Arc DS is 9 lumens min, 10 typical

+1 to the rest


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## jasonsmaglites (Dec 2, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> Frankly, I'm fed up with overly super bright lights with super short run-times. Give me a reasonable and adequate brightness with a longer run-time.


 
i think we've got a reasonable selection whereas that goes. 
for instance, one could get malkoff for uber brightness, 
or terralux and magled for runtime, 
even the everled with 150 hrs runtime off 6d batts

we've got mte seoul for brightness off single aa down to the simply cree for 6 hrs runtime off single aa, not to mention lights with low mode like 5 mode 100 lumen rebel100 and others with a low mode for ultra runtime. 

i think this is one hobby that is spoiled with selection right now.


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## Bearcat (Dec 2, 2007)

WadeF said:


> What would be the point of having 30 and 50 lumens? You'd hardly notice the difference. Going to 75 makes more sense because it's a little more than twice the output, what our eyes need to really notice a difference in light intenity.
> 
> Also isn't 30 lumens more than the Arc AAA Premium is putting out?
> 
> SOS and Strobe are the last modes. When you turn on the LOD-CE Q4 it is in medium. You don't need to fiddle with it anymore. Are you planning on using your AAA keychain light for tactical purposes, like momentary on, etc?


 
You're right about the 30 and 50 lumens being too close together, so make it 5 - 20 - 50 lumens. The points that I'm trying to make is that the run-time will be much better at 50 lumens, there is not that much difference in the amount of light your eyes perceive from 50 to 75, and just how much light do you need to see by anyway with a aaa keychain light?

Why have a 500 hp engine in a street car where the highest posted speed limit is only 65 mph and waste all the extra gasoline (runtime)?

BTW, I keep noticing that the run-times remain the same on the LODs everytime there is a LED improvement, not longer run-times.

I getting closer and closer to ordering that Little Red LOD Q4 Christmas Light. :ironic:


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## divine (Dec 2, 2007)

Why would you be so picky for a keychain light? My keychain isn't going to be the first thing I reach for if I need a flashlight. I think you need an edc light and not a light on your keys that will do everything by itself.


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## Bearcat (Dec 2, 2007)

divine said:


> Why would you be so picky for a keychain light? My keychain isn't going to be the first thing I reach for if I need a flashlight. I think you need an edc light and not a light on your keys that will do everything by itself.


 
Well, it's the first one that I have always reached for, because it is always the closest and most handy. Now, if I'm going out at night and I KNOW that I'm going to need a light, I take something much bigger to fit the need. 

Every year, both Spring and Fall, on my week long hunting and fishing trips to North East Alabama, I always carry lots of extra lights, but I mostly end-up using a Photon clone the most.

I have not reached the point YET, that I'm looking for reasons to need a light.


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## Marduke (Dec 3, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> You're right about the 30 and 50 lumens being too close together, so make it 5 - 20 - 50 lumens. The points that I'm trying to make is that the run-time will be much better at 50 lumens, there is not that much difference in the amount of light your eyes perceive from 50 to 75, and just how much light do you need to see by anyway with a aaa keychain light?
> 
> Why have a 500 hp engine in a street car where the highest posted speed limit is only 65 mph and waste all the extra gasoline (runtime)?
> 
> ...



Your analogy don't quite hold up. Compared to engines, modern flashlights are much more efficient when not ran all out. The only way to compare an IC engine is the type that shut down some cylinders when not needed. Say you have a V8, but only cruising at 55mph, it can shut down 4 or even 6 of the unnecessary cylinders for you to save gas. Jump on the accelertor (turbo mode if you like) and it's suddenly nice to have all that power of all 8 available if you need it. Just because a light is capable of putting out a lot doesn't mean it's horrible when ran on low levels. Case in point, Fenix circuit are some of the most efficient available without doubling or tripling what you pay. Driven hard, LED's loose efficiency, but that's what low and medium modes are for. You want a small light that isn't driven to the max to maintain decent runtime of several hours?? That's any quality multimode in MEDIUM. You want 50 lumens for 2 hours (there are countless efficient lights which do exactly that or better BTW), what's wrong with 30 lumens (almost identical in perception to 50, unless placed on a white wall side by side) for with an extra 1.5 hours more than that? Do you just hate lights with more than one mode or something? The LOD by default comes on at 30 for 3.5 every time you turn it on, but right after that you have a low mode for lots of runtime, and a high mode if you really needed it. Just because it has the extra modes, you never have to see them if you don't want to use them.

Edit:
To answer one question, the reason the LOD keeps the same runtimes with LED efficiency jumps is because it uses the same circuitry, which provides the same current to the emitter across all the generations, hence the same runtime. However, since the LED is more efficient, it is able to put out more light when driven at the same current as it's predecessor.


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## jch79 (Dec 3, 2007)

divine said:


> Why would you be so picky for a keychain light? My keychain isn't going to be the first thing I reach for if I need a flashlight. I think you need an edc light and not a light on your keys that will do everything by itself.



We're flashlight enthusiasts - why _not_ be picky?  I know I always have my keys with me, so it makes sense (to me) to have a quality light hangin' around as well! :shrug: That said, the AlTiN Draco I bought for keychain duty is one of the best flashlight purchases I've ever made. :thumbsup: IMHO, it's one of the finest (and most useful) lights ever produced, and I don't see ever needing to replace it!

 john


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## Lobo (Dec 3, 2007)

Marduke said:


> Your analogy don't quite hold up. Compared to engines, modern flashlights are much more efficient when not ran all out. The only way to compare an IC engine is the type that shut down some cylinders when not needed. Say you have a V8, but only cruising at 55mph, it can shut down 4 or even 6 of the unnecessary cylinders for you to save gas. Jump on the accelertor (turbo mode if you like) and it's suddenly nice to have all that power of all 8 available if you need it. Just because a light is capable of putting out a lot doesn't mean it's horrible when ran on low levels. Case in point, Fenix circuit are some of the most efficient available without doubling or tripling what you pay. Driven hard, LED's loose efficiency, but that's what low and medium modes are for. You want a small light that isn't driven to the max to maintain decent runtime of several hours?? That's any quality multimode in MEDIUM. You want 50 lumens for 2 hours (there are countless efficient lights which do exactly that or better BTW), what's wrong with 30 lumens (almost identical in perception to 50, unless placed on a white wall side by side) for with an extra 1.5 hours more than that? Do you just hate lights with more than one mode or something? The LOD by default comes on at 30 for 3.5 every time you turn it on, but right after that you have a low mode for lots of runtime, and a high mode if you really needed it. Just because it has the extra modes, you never have to see them if you don't want to use them.
> 
> Edit:
> To answer one question, the reason the LOD keeps the same runtimes with LED efficiency jumps is because it uses the same circuitry, which provides the same current to the emitter across all the generations, hence the same runtime. However, since the LED is more efficient, it is able to put out more light when driven at the same current as it's predecessor.



Exactly.

[Quote = Bearcat]Why have a 500 hp engine in a street car where the highest posted speed limit is only 65 mph and waste all the extra gasoline (runtime)?[/quote]

That analogy would mak sense if there actually where a "speed limit" for lights...


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## LEDninja (Dec 3, 2007)

Has anybody tried to figure out the runtime they need in a bad case scenario? I did a couple of years ago.

But 1st reasonable brightness. Before the '1 watt' lights I've always felt I need more light. When I got my L1P I feel I can live with that. So reasonable brightness for me is 30 lumens+.

The local arena, concert hall, and movie theater is within 6 blocks of where I live. 1/2 hour should be enough to get me home.

If I have to go to a theater a bus ride away and there is a power outage I will need:
15 minutes to sort myself out and cross the parking lot to the bus stop.
Up to 2 hours waiting for the bus. The buses run every hour but may be delayed as the traffic lights will be out.
30 minutes to walk from the downtown bus stop home.

With my L0P SE I plan on
Cross parking lot on HIGH, wait for bus on LOW and go the rest of the way on MEDIUM.
The problem is it takes a lot of willpower to go from HIGH to LOW. That is the problem with multi-level lights. The user runs the light on high until the battery dies then go "OOPS I should have used a lower setting" too late.

So when the Cree LEDs came out and the explosion of torches this year I started to look for a 30+ lumen EDCable light that will run for 3+ hours.

No luck until I persuaded Elektrolumens to build me a custom aluminium Lucidus XR-1 (the stock brass ones are too heavy for EDC duty). 30 lumens+ for 3+ hours.

The bright red L0D Xmas special on default mode might also work in my case.

There are 3D & 3C torches out there but I do not consider them EDCable.


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## Bearcat (Dec 3, 2007)

Again, let me remind everyone I'm talking about a AAA key-chain light. To me, less than 2 hours on any setting is way too short.

First of all, the lowest setting needs to be low low (3-4 lumens), and the default setting, in case you want be discreet. Restaurants, reading, trips to the bath run etc.

The medium mode needs to be around 15-20 lumens. That would give you a very long run-time and plenty of light to navigate in just about every situation.

The high mode should have around 2+ hours run-time.

The LEDs have improved to give out more light with the same amount of energy use. However, the circuitry in the LOD has remained the same. The run-times on the LOD are still set for the less bright older LEDs that had to have shorter run-times to give out enough light. 

BTW, what's the use of having a Flash and SOS mode if you energy hogs use up all your battery needlessly.:laughing:


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## easilyled (Dec 3, 2007)

this_is_nascar said:


> What are you talking about? The latest/greatest technology is being used by those who desire to use it. Your question is similar to someone asking "why doesn't a car maker use something that get 1000k per gallon and uses water as it's energy source? That answer to both questions is, because the technology hasn't advanced to that level yet.



+100 to what TIN said above.

To the original poster's first post:-

1) If you'd followed the course of led development over the last few years
you would see how far they've come. (They have made huge strides)

2) You seem to be complaining about the fact that several leds from different
manufacturers have similar outputs. This is inevitable as they all get
wind of each other's technology and they sometimes share their
components as well

eg. SSC-P4-U uses EZ-1000 die that are in Cree-XRE leds too.

You should be grateful for the enormous advances that have already taken
place and be excited about the potential for still further developments.


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## Gomer (Dec 3, 2007)

easilyled said:


> You should be grateful for the enormous advances that have already taken
> place and be excited about the potential for still further developments.




_WTS high powered 3mm LED flashlights! 5 lumens each!!!!!!! Please send PM's for ordering information! Supplies are very limited on these bleeding edge LED Flashlights!_


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## Daekar (Dec 4, 2007)

LEDninja said:


> Has anybody tried to figure out the runtime they need in a bad case scenario? I did a couple of years ago.
> 
> But 1st reasonable brightness. Before the '1 watt' lights I've always felt I need more light. When I got my L1P I feel I can live with that. So reasonable brightness for me is 30 lumens+.
> 
> ...



This is an excellent mental exercise! I have to admit I haven't done that kind of thinking-out... although admittedly, I can't think of a time when I wouldn't have fairly easy access to my car (live in the 'burbs/work rural-ish)... unless my car broke down of course. I always EDC my Arc AAA-P and some larger light. Right now it's my D-mini w/18650, which has more than enough brightness and runtime for everything but spotlighting. 

The L0D Christmas special that's coming in the mail now (My first Fenix! ) would also be good. I can't imagine that I'd need more than 30 lumens in an emergency situation for very long unless, again, I needed a spotlight or am lost in dense forest. For walking on an unlit sidewalk, I think the ~12 lumens would be just fine for 8.5 hours(!) Think about that. 8.5 hours is practically ALL NIGHT, at least in most parts of North America. Also... what are the chances that you'll need to have the light on the entire time? Unless you're under a roof, your eyes will have plenty of time to adapt to the ambient light that is almost always present. 

I have to admit I am always surprised and ridiculously pleased at how well our eyes were designed... yeah they're not as good as animal eyes (how'd you like to get a cross-species transplant? ) but unless you're dealing with light pollution, in which case you won't need a dim light for long periods, our eyes are pretty darn good.

Have any of you that live in the city ever taken the opportunity to get far away from the lights and light pollution and gone for a star-lit walk? The last time I went camping was several months ago with my Dad in the eastern part of West Virginia. There was no moon (thankfully) and it was DARK... that is, until we turned off the flashlights. Given even just 5-10 minutes to adapt, we could walk on the road or in fields without any trouble stumbling on grass tufts or uneven ground, and the stars were breathtaking! We watched satellites cross the sky, and the occasional shooting star. Contrary to my prior belief, unless it's cloudy those things aren't hard to see, and shooting stars are quite common.

Another thing every true flashaholic should strive to experience is a night-sail. Yep, call up that buddy who owns a boat and get them to take you out on the water pretty far out. Especially if you didn't depart from a busy port area... you'll be surrounded by dark water, which is then topped by a magnificent hemisphere of stars... horizon to horizon, there are stars, and nothing but the mast (unless you're in a motorboat) to get in the way. 

Sorry... didn't mean to wax philosophical... 

Anyway, I'll have to see if I can't work out another scenario like that to explore how useful any given runtime/brightness might be. Good thinking, LEDninja! :twothumbs


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## PhantomPhoton (Dec 4, 2007)

@ Daekar
I agree that our eyes are marvelous pieces of equipment.
I love walking in night time darkness; and even more than that I love skywatching. Nothing like getting away from light pollution and other people.

As for LEDs, I can't wait for newer stuff to come out. But I think we are very spoiled at the moment with new Crees coming out every 2-3 months. I remember my first white LED lights, still have a couple of them stuck away in the drawer of unused goodies. My how far we've come.


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## Lobo (Dec 4, 2007)

Daekar said:


> I have to admit I am always surprised and ridiculously pleased at how well our eyes were designed... yeah they're not as good as animal eyes (how'd you like to get a cross-species transplant? ) but unless you're dealing with light pollution, in which case you won't need a dim light for long periods, our eyes are pretty darn good.
> 
> Have any of you that live in the city ever taken the opportunity to get far away from the lights and light pollution and gone for a star-lit walk? The last time I went camping was several months ago with my Dad in the eastern part of West Virginia. There was no moon (thankfully) and it was DARK... that is, until we turned off the flashlights. Given even just 5-10 minutes to adapt, we could walk on the road or in fields without any trouble stumbling on grass tufts or uneven ground, and the stars were breathtaking! We watched satellites cross the sky, and the occasional shooting star. Contrary to my prior belief, unless it's cloudy those things aren't hard to see, and shooting stars are quite common.
> 
> ...



This is so true. As a flashoholic, it's only natural that we want to use our flahslight as much as possible, but the truth is that most of the time you don't have to. The only place that I might need a light is indoors(if the lights are out) or in the woods. Under the open sky, almost never. I even have to make up excuses to use my lights, since I actually don't need a light the most of the time.


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## LEDninja (Dec 4, 2007)

Bearcat said:


> Again, let me remind everyone I'm talking about a AAA key-chain light. To me, less than 2 hours on any setting is way too short.
> 
> First of all, the lowest setting needs to be low low (3-4 lumens), and the default setting, in case you want be discreet. Restaurants, reading, trips to the bath run etc.
> 
> ...


Looks like someone has been listening to you.

Avenger AAA:
Low 18-20 hours
Normal 2.5-3 hoirs

There are one two 
threads on this.


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## Bearcat (Dec 4, 2007)

LEDninja said:


> Looks like someone has been listening to you.
> 
> Avenger AAA:
> Low 18-20 hours
> ...


 
Yeah, I have been looking at that light. It has the "low low", its normal "high" has a good run-time, and there is NO SOS and FLASH modes to have to deal with, but it is lacking a "medium low" mode of around 15 lumens. 

I have a Fenix EO and I really like it, because it has a super long regulated run-time, but its not quite bright enough at around 5 lumens for a single mode flashlight. 

Now Arc has come out with its new DS LED that is suppose to be twice bright with around 10 lumens, but it has a shorter less regulated run-time than the EO has and it cost a bit more too.

Fenix EO + DS LED or better (aprox. 10+ lumens) + 10+ hours of regulated runtime = SOLD

Fenix LOD Q4 (or better) 5-20-50 lumems = SOLD


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