# Powerex MH-C9000 - new Sanyo Eneloops



## radunn (Jul 7, 2012)

I'm new to the MH-C9000 charger and Eneloop batteries. I've been doing extensive reading here in the forums and gather that a discharge/break-in is highly recommended for new (unused) batteries? I'm using the Eneloop 1500s that retain 75% capacity up to 3 yrs. I need advice from the very beginning as far as what modes will give me best battery life/usage. The main appliances used are a digital camera (4 AA), remote control (4 AAA) and miscellaneous devices that use up to 1-2 AA/AAA.

To begin, how long does a cycle (break-in, R&A, charge etc.) last for batteries that are unused; is there a time period of non-use when the batteries should receive another cycle before use in a device?

I read where a Charge was only required; did this on 4 AAA eneloops after they showed signs of degradation. These batteries were used straight out of the package (no break-in, R&A etc.). The C9000 results were:
Battery 1 582 mah 1.45v
" 2 628 mah 1.45v
" 3 628 mah 1.44v
" 4 615 mah 1.44v MIN were 97 - 104

Will the mah capacity be higher if I did a Break-in, discharge/Break-in? What is the advantage/benefit of doing the discharge first?

Say, when the devices no longer functions properly (weak batteries) is a Charge only required. If so, should the batteries be discharged before applying the Charge or is a straight Charge sufficient?

On a brand new 4pk AAA the voltage is 1.338v for all 4. Would applying a cycle increase the voltage/mah? Can you get a direct maH reading on the C9000 for batteries without running them through a cycle?

As a newbie I hope I'm understandable......... in advance thanks!


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## SilverFox (Jul 7, 2012)

Hello Radunn,

Welcome to CPF.

The Break In function involves charging for 16 hours, resting for an hour, discharging for 5 hours, resting another hour, then charging again for 16 hours. That adds up to 39 hours.

Charge time depends upon how discharged the cell is, and the charge current you select. Discharge time depends upon the discharge current you select and the capacity of the cell.

The R&A function involves both charging and discharging.

The main purpose in cycling cells through charge and discharge cycles is to evenly distribute the electrolyte within the cell. In normal use you don't worry too much about this and only do a complete discharge every few months to eliminate any "memory effect" that may be forming.

If you have more cells than you normally use, you have two options. The best is to purchase more lights and use them... :devil: Or, you will have to store them. Storage is hard on cells and cells that have been stored can benefit from either a Break In or R&A cycle.

Eneloop cells seem to just work well. They don't see much benefit from either the Break In or running R&A cycles on them. Sometimes you will see a little improvement, but it is usually minor. When running a Break In on them it is better to run a discharge first. This will limit the amount of overcharge on the cell.

In most cases when you have run a cell down, just recharge it. You can set up a system to manage your cells by finding a way to keep track of them, and then when you change the clocks from daylight savings to normal time use that as a reminder to run a charge/discharge cycle on your cells. Record the capacity and log it for future use. Some people only do this once a year, others do it 4 times a year. Pick a time frame that suites you.

To determine the capacity of a cell it needs to be discharged. To determine the full capacity of a cell it needs to be charged first, then discharged.

If you prefer "vibrant" cells use them frequently and at a minimum do a discharge followed by a Break In once a year. Note the capacity and recycle the cell when it falls below 80% of its initial measured capacity.

Tom


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## zoulas (Jul 8, 2012)

Excellent explanation, SilveFox.


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## radunn (Jul 8, 2012)

SilverFox said:


> The Break In function involves charging for 16 hours, resting for an hour, discharging for 5 hours, resting another hour, then charging again for 16 hours. That adds up to 39 hours.
> 
> The R&A function involves both charging and discharging.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the valuable information; it's saved as a file. Do I have this right; for a new cell (to determine the current capacity) it should be discharged? What is "full capacity"; is it maH after charge/discharge? My thinking is that a discharge/charge = full capacity. I open for correction. Again thanks!


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## SilverFox (Jul 8, 2012)

Hello Radunn,

The difference between capacity and full capacity comes into play with people measuring the amount of self discharge cells experience. If you charge a cell and set it aside for a month, you may be interested in what it has left for capacity. In this case you would simply do a discharge to see how much was left. On the other hand if you want to now the full capacity of the cell you would charge it first, then do a discharge to determine its full capacity.

Tom


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## radunn (Jul 9, 2012)

SilverFox said:


> If you charge a cell and set it aside for a month, you may be interested in what it has left for capacity. In this case you would simply do a discharge to see how much was left. On the other hand if you want to now the full capacity of the cell you would charge it first, then do a discharge to determine its full capacity.
> 
> Tom


Thanks... regarding the above, either choice I decide that results with Discharge, I assume it's necessary to Charge that battery before using it? What Mode is recommended? Again, I assume Charge. Is there a benefit for using a volt-ohm meter to measure voltage?


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## SilverFox (Jul 9, 2012)

Hello Radunn,

It depends upon what you are planning to do with the cell. After it is discharged, it can be stored. If you need power from it, then it will need to be charged before use. The charge mode works great to charge cells. 

I always encourage people to have a voltmeter and to use it, but the C9000 reports voltage so it is not totally necessary.

Tom


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## mousewizard (Jul 9, 2012)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Radunn,
> 
> It depends upon what you are planning to do with the cell. After it is discharged, it can be stored. If you need power from it, then it will need to be charged before use. The charge mode works great to charge cells.
> 
> ...



Well, _this _is new to me. Storing NiMH cells in a discharged state. Wouldn't that cause the cell to self-discharge even more and get into a region where it's lifetime and capacity are reduced and non-recoverable?


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## march.brown (Jul 10, 2012)

mousewizard said:


> Well, _this _is new to me. Storing NiMH cells in a discharged state. Wouldn't that cause the cell to self-discharge even more and get into a region where it's lifetime and capacity are reduced and non-recoverable?


I understand that Eneloops lose about 15% of the charge in about three years ... Then they lose 15% of the remainder over the next three years and so on ... I doubt whether most users would keep them several years without using or charging them.

The whole idea about LSD cells is that you charge them and keep them till you need them ... So , even after six years from the charge , they should still have over 70% left in them.

I tend to top-up all my LSD cells regularly every six months (whether they need it or not) , though the last time I somehow forgot and it was fifteen months between charges.

I would hate to go back to non-LSD cells when I was topping up every month or so.
.


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## mousewizard (Jul 10, 2012)

Yeah, but silverfox stated he was storing them _after _*discharging *them.


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## Russel (Jul 10, 2012)

mousewizard said:


> Yeah, but silverfox stated he was storing them _after _*discharging *them.



I always store Eneloops in a discharged, or slightly charged state. Slightly charged being about 10% state of charge. I cycle the batteries every 3 to 6 months and, if I don't need to use them, return them to storage. When I say cycling the batteries, I am refering to charging, then discharging the cells if they are going back into storage. I haven't had any problems with my Eneloops over the last few years using this method. One note, I do run a "break in" cycle on all of my Eneloops with a Maha MH-C9000 charger once a year.


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## march.brown (Jul 10, 2012)

Russel said:


> I always store Eneloops in a discharged, or slightly charged state. Slightly charged being about 10% state of charge. I cycle the batteries every 3 to 6 months and, if I don't need to use them, return them to storage. When I say cycling the batteries, I am refering to charging, then discharging the cells if they are going back into storage. I haven't had any problems with my Eneloops over the last few years using this method. One note, I do run a "break in" cycle on all of my Eneloops with a Maha MH-C9000 charger once a year.


When I buy Eneloops they are pretty well fully charged ... It doesn't take much charge to fill them up ... It is quite possible that when you buy Eneloops , they are not that recent ... They could even be a year or two old ... Based on this , I keep mine fully charged and top up (when I remember) every six months or so ... I top up all my spares even if they were very recently charged ... I just keep a note of the date that they were all topped up ... I have not had trouble with my Eneloops in the last two or three years ... I like to be able to go into the drawer and simply take out the required number of Eneloops without having to put them on charge for a few hours (charging time plus two hours topoff).

For my purposes , I can't see the point in keeping batteries uncharged ... I do the same with my 18650's ... I don't mind buying new cells every few years , though I've had my Li-Ions about three years now ... I don't know how old the Li-Ions were when I bought them but they are still working great even though they are only cheap Ultrafires ... When the 18650's eventually die , I will buy Panasonic replacements (eventually).
.


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## SilverFox (Jul 10, 2012)

Hello Mousewizard,

The self discharge rate of cells reduces greatly as it approaches full discharge. You go from 100% to 90% fairly quickly, but it takes forever to go from 15% to 10%.

The low self discharge cells are different. If you want to store them charged and ready for use, that seems to work well. I still take any excess number of these cells and store them discharged.

To store an AA Eneloop cell for example, I discharge it at 1.0 amps in the C9000. This leaves a bit of charge in the cell and is different from doing a discharge at 0.1 amps. In the old days, some of us would short the cell out and store it that way over the winter months when we weren't using our RC cars. Now days it seems that people switch the battery from the car to the 4X4 and run in the snow...

Tom


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## mousewizard (Jul 10, 2012)

Wow. Talk about a set of mixed advice!

Basically, I'm trying to preserve inventory. That is; store batteries for as long as possible so that they're still useful when I bring them into service. Many, many years would be nice.

The current method I use (storing charged and topping off with very light charge rates) is based on my impression that chemistry doesn't like to go back and forth all the time. Losses are incurred with each cycle and the amount of loss depends on the depth of the cycle. So "rocking" the battery in the top 10% of its capacity seems (to me) easier on the chemistry than storing discharged, then charging and discharging (basically, using up a cycle) once a year.

For example, I do this with the NiMH packs in my tools and the packs usually last so long the OEM packs aren't available as replacements by the time I need new ones. I did this with my EV as well and the pack lasted much longer than the dealer expected.

So, is there some new data out there or what?


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## SilverFox (Jul 12, 2012)

Hello Mousewizard,

The concern with storing at a full charge has always been oxidative damage to the electrolyte and electrodes. The evolution in technology has seen a great improvement in electrolyte and electrode formulations. This may result in less concern in storage charge.

I expect cells to last 2 years from purchase. I am constantly surprised when they last longer than that. I currently have some that are going on 8 years and they are still going strong. These have been in use and in storage and when in storage they are stored discharged and give a periodic charge/discharge cycle.

The research has moved from NiMh chemistry to Li-Ion chemistry, so there isn't much new, except for the low self discharge chemistry.

Tom


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## Wrend (Jul 13, 2012)

Shorting and storing individual NiCd cells once they're fully discharged is fine. I'm not sure I'd recommend it for Eneloops though. I store mine charged and ready to use.

For long storage of several years or more, I'd probably leave them in the packaging, or about half charged in a cool, dry, dim place. I would not repeatedly top them off, though I might do a slow cycle on them every six months or once a year. I think repeatedly topping them off would add some extra wear on them.


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## march.brown (Jul 13, 2012)

Is there a need to keep a load of batteries for many years ? ... Why not just keep a few spares and buy new (recently manufactured) cells as needed.

I can see that it would be necessary to have a supply of certain cells or batteries if they were no longer being manufactured , but AA and AAA will be here for many more years.

At the moment , I have eight AA Eneloops and four AA Hybrios spare plus eleven assorted LSD AAA cells ... I also have two unprotected 18650 cells plus one protected plus three Lithium CR-123's and three RCR-123's spare ... As my batteries eventually die , I will buy more ... All my torches are equipped with batteries , though some are Lithium primaries (in the car) and some are Duracell Ultra-powers (in give-away torches).

I know it is a personal choice , but I only keep the bare minimum of spare batteries ... I have too many LSD AAA's spare at the moment and would normally only have three or four , but I took a few out of remotes ... I don't now use rechargeable cells in clocks and remotes etc , so my batteries are only for torches and radios ... All my clocks and remotes are using Duracell Ultra-powers (dated 2017) which I had at a good price ... They seem to last forever ... So far I haven't had any problems with battery leakage ... I do tend to tentatively look at the batteries in my remotes occasionally though when I remember.
.


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## mousewizard (Jul 17, 2012)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Mousewizard,
> 
> The concern with storing at a full charge has always been oxidative damage to the electrolyte and electrodes. The evolution in technology has seen a great improvement in electrolyte and electrode formulations. This may result in less concern in storage charge.
> 
> ...



OK. I can see the concept. I currently top off the LSD batteries once every six months, and cycle them once a year. I think I'll plan to partially discharge them (about 25%), and then cycle them once every two years and monitor them to see how they hold up. As for the standard NiMH, I think I'll do the same, and then monitor how long they take to self-discharge and cycle them once they get to about 1/2 capacity. How does that approach sound to you?


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## mousewizard (Jul 17, 2012)

march.brown said:


> Is there a need to keep a load of batteries for many years ? ... Why not just keep a few spares and buy new (recently manufactured) cells as needed.
> 
> I can see that it would be necessary to have a supply of certain cells or batteries if they were no longer being manufactured , but AA and AAA will be here for many more years.


I have my reasons. They make sense to me.


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## SilverFox (Jul 18, 2012)

Hello Mousewizard,

Sounds like a good test...

Tom


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## SilverFox (Jul 18, 2012)

Hello Mousewizard,

Sounds like a good test...

Tom


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## radunn (Jul 21, 2012)

I'm trying to follow but you guys are light years ahead of me :laughing:. I'm at the basics. I noticed my remote control wasn't responding as it should so all I did was charge the AAA 1500x eneloops. What baffles me is that the maH reads as follows: Cell 1, 284mah, #2-279maH, #3-300maH, #4-282maH. All cells register 1.48v. AAA-1500x Eneloops are marked at 800maH; why is the maH so low after a charge. Is there something I'm missing/not doing correct? In advance thanks!


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## samgab (Jul 21, 2012)

There is a lot of over-thinking and unnecessarily complicating things that goes on, IMHO. 
Eneloops are robust, long lasting, and easy to use. They are quite well able to survive storage in a fully charged state.
Keep them fully charged, use them when you need them, charge them when they're flat.
That's all you need to know really...
If in doubt, it's always safe to go with the manufacturer's recommendations: 
http://www.eneloop.info/fileadmin/EDITORS/ENELOOP/PICTURES/OTHER_PICTURES/handbook.pdf

eg: A quote directly from the eneloop user guide:
_"It is recommended to store them at room temperature. If _
_stored fully charged, it is possible to use them within approximately _
_three years. Depending on how they are stored, to ensure that they can _
_be used for a long time, it is recommended that they should be charged _
_at least once every year. "_


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## radunn (Jul 22, 2012)

samgab said:


> There is a lot of over-thinking and unnecessarily complicating things that goes on, IMHO.
> Eneloops are robust, long lasting, and easy to use. They are quite well able to survive storage in a fully charged state.
> Keep them fully charged, use them when you need them, charge them when they're flat.
> That's all you need to know really...


Thank you for your input; which I agree with in full, but is there a reason why the maH readings after a charge is way below the listed 800mah rating?

So, when I purchase new Sanyo's... all that's required is to use them (out of the package) and charge them when depleted; really no need for Break-in, Refresh etc.? I'm a noobie but learning........ Basically I'd like to learn how to charge them to get to the closest rated mah..... thanks!


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## samgab (Jul 22, 2012)

radunn said:


> Thank you for your input; which I agree with in full, but is there a reason why the maH readings after a charge is way below the listed 800mah rating?
> 
> So, when I purchase new Sanyo's... all that's required is to use them (out of the package) and charge them when depleted; really no need for Break-in, Refresh etc.? I'm a noobie but learning........ Basically I'd like to learn how to charge them to get to the closest rated mah..... thanks!



Yes, the reason they were lower than the rated mAh straight out of the package is that they only charge them to about 75% at the factory. 
(EDIT: I just noticed that you said "after a charge"... In that case, it's probably due to the discharge rate you selected... Still do the following to get a "true" capacity result. By that I mean, standardised result. Of course, the actual capacity depends on a lot of variables depending on how the device you are using them in draws current. But the break-in uses the same standardised method that was used to get the 800mAh rating... which, incidentally is a "750mAh min. rating" anyway, rather than an 800mAh rating.)
((EDIT AGAIN: Hang on, are those results you gave in the initial post the results of a CHARGE? That won't give you cell capacity, if so. All that is telling you is the capacity that was put into the cells, less any losses due to inefficiencies and heat etc. A cell's capacity is taken from the DISCHARGE of the fully charged cell to fully discharged, not the charge cycle. Use the Break-In at 800 (after a discharge) to get that, in the case of eneloop AAA's. or a break in set to 2000 after a discharge in the case of eneloop AA's.))

If you want an initial accurate capacity reading; 1/do a discharge, don't pay much attention to the result. Then 2/do a break-in set to 800. After it completely finishes that break-in, _those_ results are your actual mAh rating for the cells. Do the same thing again in a year, and 2 years, and 3 years, etc, and compare the results with your initial results to track how the cells are performing.
That's just one idea.


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## samgab (Jul 22, 2012)

You don't _*need*_ to do the break-in's etc, but you've got a sophisticated and advanced charger that has that ability, so might as well make use of it aye?


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## radunn (Jul 22, 2012)

samgab said:


> Yes, the reason they were lower than the rated mAh straight out of the package is that they only charge them to about 75% at the factory.
> (EDIT: I just noticed that you said "after a charge"... In that case, it's probably due to the discharge rate you selected... Still do the following to get a "true" capacity result. By that I mean, standardised result. Of course, the actual capacity depends on a lot of variables depending on how the device you are using them in draws current. But the break-in uses the same standardised method that was used to get the 800mAh rating... which, incidentally is a "750mAh min. rating" anyway, rather than an 800mAh rating.)
> ((EDIT AGAIN: Hang on, are those results you gave in the initial post the results of a CHARGE? That won't give you cell capacity, if so. All that is telling you is the capacity that was put into the cells, less any losses due to inefficiencies and heat etc. A cell's capacity is taken from the DISCHARGE of the fully charged cell to fully discharged, not the charge cycle. Use the Break-In at 800 (after a discharge) to get that, in the case of eneloop AAA's. or a break in set to 2000 after a discharge in the case of eneloop AA's.))
> 
> ...



Thank you. I am following/making note of your expertise. Regarding your 1st EDIT, I charged them not discharged. So, I gather the low maH reading I received (after a CHARGE) was only that what was put into the cells (not the full capacity).?

In other words, to get the maximum potential I should discharge the cell then do a Break-in yearly etc.? Thanks for bearing with me!


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## march.brown (Jul 22, 2012)

radunn said:


> I'm trying to follow but you guys are light years ahead of me :laughing:. I'm at the basics. I noticed my remote control wasn't responding as it should so all I did was charge the AAA 1500x eneloops. What baffles me is that the maH reads as follows: Cell 1, 284mah, #2-279maH, #3-300maH, #4-282maH. All cells register 1.48v. AAA-1500x Eneloops are marked at 800maH; why is the maH so low after a charge. Is there something I'm missing/not doing correct? In advance thanks!


That's probably the amount of charge going into the batteries ... The amount of charge on the charge cycle doesn't make allowances for the fact that the batteries are not fully discharged ... In your case , it looks as though they were only partially discharged. 

You would need to charge - discharge - charge to find out the full discharge capacity.

Your handset was possibly acting up because the batteries were making bad contact ... I sometimes have to turn the batteries on my handsets to make better contact ... It works most times unless the batteries really are going flat , in which case they have to be changed.
.


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## WDG (Jul 25, 2012)

radunn said:


> ...So, I gather the low maH reading I received (after a CHARGE) was only that what was put into the cells (not the full capacity).?...



Correct. The number at the end of the charge is the amount of charge the MH-C9000 put into the cell.

Regarding capacity:
- You'll get a rough idea of the capacity of a cell by discharging two hours after a full charge. Two hours, because that's how long the MH-C9000 tops the cell after termination. 
- You'll also get a pretty good idea of the capacity with a REFRESH/ANALYZE. You can use the default settings on AA cells, and maybe 500mA charge & 200mA discharge for AAA cells.
- To get the most accurate capacity, use BREAK-IN. The methods used in this mode are the closest to industry standards for testing cell capacity. Set this to either the stated capacity of the cell, or the capacity you get after an R/A. 

NOTE: Many new users see a larger number than the capacity of the cell (like 2400mA on a 2000mAh cell) during BREAK-IN and think something's wrong. The number while it's charging is what it's put into the cell to that point, and is normal, because the overcharge is helping evenly distribute the electrolyte in the cell (but is slow enough to not damage it.) The charger won't report the actual capacity until it shows DONE. Anything before that is only informing you of what it's doing at the moment.

*While the MH-C9000 has a lot of features for those who want to use them, it's also a pleasantly easy to use charger for just normal charging. For AA Eneloops, just put them in and walk away. Take them out two hours after they say DONE. For AAA, put them, press ENTER once, and reduce the charge rate to say 500mA, and press ENTER again. Do this for each slot.*

You've made an excellent choice of cells, and a charger that you can grow into as you learn more.


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## march.brown (Jul 25, 2012)

WDG said:


> Correct. The number at the end of the charge is the amount of charge the MH-C9000 put into the cell.
> 
> Regarding capacity:
> - You'll get a rough idea of the capacity of a cell by discharging two hours after a full charge. Two hours, because that's how long the MH-C9000 tops the cell after termination.
> ...


After "DONE" I leave my AA batteries in for over two hours , till I see the voltage drop by at least one millivolt ... This is a few minutes after the current has dropped from 100mA (for two hours) to the 10mA figure ... You can leave the batteries in for longer , as 10mA is the Maintenance Charging Current.

With AAA's I charge at 400mA and I leave them in for one hour after the "DONE" sign comes on ... I don't like to leave them longer than one hour as the charger is trying to push in 100mA ... I just think that with AAA's I only need one hour (at 100mA) after "DONE"... Personal preference maybe ?

I wish that I had bought the C9000 a few years ago instead of wasting money on cheaper chargers ... The money isn't really wasted as the cheaper chargers have been handed down to my children and grandchildren and they also have all my non-LSD batteries too ...
.


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## Wrend (Jul 25, 2012)

march.brown said:


> ...
> 
> With AAA's I charge at 400mA and I leave them in for one hour after the "DONE" sign comes on ... I don't like to leave them longer than one hour as the charger is trying to push in 100mA ... I just think that with AAA's I only need one hour (at 100mA) after "DONE"... Personal preference maybe ?
> 
> ...



I have tested this with AAA Eneloops at 400mA, and even leaving them on for three hours after the main charging phase is "done," doesn't appear to overcharge them when compared to their full capacity potential which is tested during a break-in (comparing discharges after a normal charge and discharges during and after a break-in), so I wouldn't worry about it. It's also pretty close to 1/10 C/h for the AAAs.

A charge rate of 300mA might add a little more since the main charging phase might terminate proportionally a little later, but I have not tested the significance of this yet.

For the AAs, I've started charging them at 700mA in the hopes that the main charging phase does terminate proportionally a little later to perhaps balance the cells a little more, but this isn't likely much of a significant issue one way or the other. And also, the slower charging rate might or might not help prolong cell cycle life.

Either way, we're a lot better off with using our C9000s instead of typical NiMH chargers that come in many of the bundled packs.


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## march.brown (Jul 26, 2012)

Wrend said:


> I have tested this with AAA Eneloops at 400mA, and even leaving them on for three hours after the main charging phase is "done," doesn't appear to overcharge them when compared to their full capacity potential which is tested during a break-in (comparing discharges after a normal charge and discharges during and after a break-in), so I wouldn't worry about it. It's also pretty close to 1/10 C/h for the AAAs.


Certainly this means that you can leave the AAA's on the charger knowing that two hours after the "DONE" comes on , the charger will drop to 10mA ... If this maintenance charge is on for another hour or two , 10mA isn't going to hurt the AAA's ... It's just that 100mA for two hours seems a bit "cruel" to inflict on 800/850 mAh AAA's ... I wish we could choose to drop to 10mA after only on hour when needed ... I suppose most people will do as you do and go for the two hours , irrespective of whether it is on an AA or AAA.



> A charge rate of 300mA might add a little more since the main charging phase might terminate proportionally a little later, but I have not tested the significance of this yet.
> 
> For the AAs, I've started charging them at 700mA in the hopes that the main charging phase does terminate proportionally a little later to perhaps balance the cells a little more, but this isn't likely much of a significant issue one way or the other. And also, the slower charging rate might or might not help prolong cell cycle life.


I only charge AA's at 1000mA so it's dead simple for me ... I put the AA cells in and leave them for a few hours ... Easy , no keys to press.



> Either way, we're a lot better off with using our C9000s instead of typical NiMH chargers that come in many of the bundled packs.


Just wish that I had bought one earlier.
.


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## Schermann (Aug 23, 2012)

Wow, store them at 10% of charge! It's a shame you can't select the % discharge/charge on a C9000 like the old IBM ThinkPad laptop battery management software could! I've been spit roasting my AAA Eneloops in a Varta 15 min charger (7 minutes) for over 3 years now and my spanking new C9000 has revived all of them back to 700maH after just one break-in and a Cycle x 3. I bought my Eneloops as a 4 pack with a Sanyo slow charger included. While I currently use the C9000 for restorations I generally let the 250ma charger do the 'slow cook' as I can just set and forget leaving the C9000 ports free to rescue 'me other lovelies'. Sanyo Eneloops are really tough over the long term but I have found that if they go through the washing machine they tend to get HIGH from all those soap bubbles... Water and NiMH don't mix well do they...


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## rwharold (Feb 17, 2013)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Radunn,
> 
> Welcome to CPF.
> 
> ...



Tom,

Good review. Thanks. I just purchased the Maha C9000 charger. I love it! I also purchased a pack of 10 new Sanyo 1500 cycle 2000 mA Eneloop AA batteries. I just ran a break-in cycle on them without a discharge first. Have I done any damage to the batteries or shortened their life by not discharging first?
Thanks,
Richard


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## SilverFox (Feb 17, 2013)

Hello Richard,

I answered your question in the other thread. In general a discharge first will limit the overcharge during the first part of the break in. I think this treats the cells better, but the break in charge current should be low enough to avoid damage to the cell.

Tom


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## holylight (Feb 18, 2013)

anyone got any idea if a new new mh charger is coming out to replace the current mh c9000。cause I don't want to buy and oops new product launching zzz ####!


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## mousewizard (Feb 18, 2013)

holylight said:


> anyone got any idea if a new new mh charger is coming out to replace the current mh c9000。cause I don't want to buy and oops new product launching zzz ####!



Yeah, wouldn't want to be caught without the latest and greatest...


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## WDG (Feb 19, 2013)

holylight said:


> anyone got any idea if a new new mh charger is coming out to replace the current mh c9000。cause I don't want to buy and oops new product launching zzz ####!



You should wait. There might be something new planned for 2014, and then all the MH-C9000 chargers won't be any good, any more. :devil:


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## holylight (Feb 20, 2013)

WDG said:


> You should wait. There might be something new planned for 2014, and then all the MH-C9000 chargers won't be any good, any more. :devil:



any quote that they have new planned for 2014? or u find what i asking very silly?


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## mousewizard (Feb 20, 2013)

WDG said:


> You should wait. There might be something new planned for 2014, and then all the MH-C9000 chargers won't be any good, any more. :devil:



I've got a hunch it's not 2014, but 2015 when a new model will come out. Everyone should wait for the new model because that's when all the older chargers will stop running. Wouldn't want to be stuck with a dead charger. :fail:


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## braddy (Feb 20, 2013)

holylight said:


> anyone got any idea if a new new mh charger is coming out to replace the current mh c9000。cause I don't want to buy and oops new product launching zzz ####!




If you don't need it today, then wait, I think it has been years since they did any major upgrades, it is probably time for a new model.


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## rwharold (Feb 20, 2013)

Since this thread is also about "New" Sanyo Eneloops, I thought that I would pass along some new information that I just learned about. There is now a 3rd generation of Sanyo Eneloops! The new model number for the AA batteries is HR-3UTGB and for the AAA batteries it is HR-4UTGB . I've just called Sanyo Eneloop Technical Support to learn about the differences between the 2nd and 3rd generation versions. The 3rd generation now has an even more improved charge retention rate, claiming 90% capacity after one year, and 70% after five years. And they now claim 1800 cycles instead of 1500. I just wish that I knew this before I purchased the 2nd generation cells just last week! Thet are now selling both on Amazon and eBay. Oh well, I guess there is always going to be something newer eventually!


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## Verndog (Feb 20, 2013)

rwharold said:


> .... I just wish that I knew this before I purchased the 2nd generation cells just last week!



No worries, you'll likely never tell the difference. If you plan to let rechargeable batteries sit 1 year then you shouldn't be using rechargeables in that device...not cost effective.

I knew all that and still elected to buy the Gen2 at a way better price.


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## braddy (Feb 20, 2013)

> If you plan to let rechargeable batteries sit 1 year then you shouldn't be using rechargeables in that device...not cost effective.




In my case it was leaking alkalines that led me to rechargeables.


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## Mr Happy (Feb 20, 2013)

holylight said:


> any quote that they have new planned for 2014? or u find what i asking very silly?



Just think about it logically.

The longer you wait before buying something, the more likely it is that a new version will be announced in the near future. So waiting longer is more likely to lead to disappointment.

Also, the longer you wait before buying something the more time you spend without it, the more time you spend deprived of the benefits of owning it.

So if you have a use for something, if it would be valuable to own, then buy it without delay. Waiting longer will never be to your advantage.


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## Russel (Feb 20, 2013)

holylight said:


> any quote that they have new planned for 2014? or u find what i asking very silly?



I agree with Mr Happy.

Also, something else to think about is that the MH-C9000 has been around for a while and has been updated from the first units that were avalible for sale. I prefer to get a time proven product, rather than hope a new model doesn't have any bugs. (I bought my last car early so that I could get the last year of the model series rather than the first of the next series.)


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## WDG (Feb 22, 2013)

^^^ Ditto. 

I'm not one of those folks who respect the notion that I simply must have the latest, just because it's new. There has to be some compelling reason for me to "upgrade," so long as what I'm using does what I want or need it to do. The MH-C9000s I've been using since 2007 simply excel beyond my needs and have never failed me, so even if something _Bigger!/Better!/Faster!/More!™_ came out tomorrow, the ones I have would still continue to be the workhorses they've always been. 

On the other hand, it's entirely possible I could just be a luddite. :naughty:


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## Yamabushi (Feb 22, 2013)

WDG said:


> On the other hand, it's entirely possible I could just be a luddite. :naughty:



A Luddite would use candles.


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## holylight (Feb 23, 2013)

Russel said:


> I agree with Mr Happy.
> 
> Also, something else to think about is that the MH-C9000 has been around for a while and has been updated from the first units that were avalible for sale. I prefer to get a time proven product, rather than hope a new model doesn't have any bugs. (I bought my last car early so that I could get the last year of the model series rather than the first of the next series.)



I can understand how u feel and I can bet u got the current mh charger. the objects u comparing is very different in nature. I can understand y u want to buy older model car and yes I appreciate the design and look of older model of cars of same brand. but newer and higher end of a same brand charger is a total different subject. peace on my 2 cent view


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## holylight (Feb 23, 2013)

Yamabushi said:


> A Luddite would use candles.



lol good joke


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## WDG (Feb 24, 2013)

Yamabushi said:


> A Luddite would use candles.



I hate candles.


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## Russel (Feb 25, 2013)

holylight said:


> I can understand how u feel and I can bet u got the current mh charger. the objects u comparing is very different in nature. I can understand y u want to buy older model car and yes I appreciate the design and look of older model of cars of same brand. but newer and higher end of a same brand charger is a total different subject. peace on my 2 cent view



My point has nothing to do with the look and design. I am refering to the fact that designs that have been around for a while have had their week points discovered and hopefully corrected. Where a completely new model has had less use and fewer problems discovered. This idea applies to any machine.

Many new machines, especially electronic machines, tend to have some beneficial advancements compaired to previous models. But, purchasing the latest models sometimes compromises reliability. Of course, we all have our own decisions to make with regard to which is more important to us.


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## braddy (Feb 25, 2013)

The improvement that I would look for would be for it to charge a larger variety of batteries.


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## rwharold (Mar 17, 2013)

I was having a discussion with a reader on Amazon.com about the Maha C9000 and the new Eneloop batteries. I was telling the group about the need to run a "Discharge" cycle first before running the "Break-In" cycle. I cited my information based on the reading of discussions by the experts on Candle Power Forums. My opponent in the discussion said: "The so-called EXPERTS at Candle Power are flashlight buffs. They have no more technical knowledge of the chemistry of NiMH batteries than any other average Joe." He proceeded to degrade all my coments and basically said that I didn't know what I was talking about. Can anyone help me with my discussion on Amazon.com? He seems to think that we all don't know what we are talking about.


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## donn_ (Mar 17, 2013)




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## Mr Happy (Mar 17, 2013)

rwharold said:


> I was having a discussion with a reader on Amazon.com about the Maha C9000 and the new Eneloop batteries. I was telling the group about the need to run a "Discharge" cycle first before running the "Break-In" cycle. I cited my information based on the reading of discussions by the experts on Candle Power Forums. My opponent in the discussion said: "The so-called EXPERTS at Candle Power are flashlight buffs. They have no more technical knowledge of the chemistry of NiMH batteries than any other average Joe." He proceeded to degrade all my coments and basically said that I didn't know what I was talking about. Can anyone help me with my discussion on Amazon.com? He seems to think that we all don't know what we are talking about.



There is no need to discharge the batteries before putting them through a break-in cycle.

Some of us like to do it because it makes us think we are being kinder to our batteries and it feels "right" to discharge a battery before charging it. However, when people have run a break-in cycle without discharging first the batteries come out of it with a slightly higher reported capacity.

So it's your choice. It's not really going to make a lot of difference either way.


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## rwharold (Mar 18, 2013)

Mr Happy said:


> There is no need to discharge the batteries before putting them through a break-in cycle.
> 
> Some of us like to do it because it makes us think we are being kinder to our batteries and it feels "right" to discharge a battery before charging it. However, when people have run a break-in cycle without discharging first the batteries come out of it with a slightly higher reported capacity.
> 
> So it's your choice. It's not really going to make a lot of difference either way.



Mr. Happy,

Thanks for your comments. I guess that I lost the battle of words that I was having with the Amazon.com "expert". I relied too heavily on the advice that I read on Candle Power Forums (CPF). I was just trying to be helpful to the readers by quoting what was advised on CPF. I didn't like the negative comment that he made about the "experts" on CPF. Oh well, I've learned another good "life lesson". Thanks again for your clarification. 

Richard


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## SilverFox (Mar 18, 2013)

Hello Richard,

I disagree...

In addition to being flashlight buffs, some of us are also battery buffs...  

The idea if the initial discharge has to do with the idea that overcharging a cell leads to degradation. However, the break in charge current is supposed to be low enough that it doesn't harm the cells. 

With normal NiMh cells this is not a problem, but the Eneloop cells are a little different. Extended overcharging can cause them to start to vent and if left for a longer period it can damage the cell. I don't believe the break in time and current is enough to do this on the C-9000, but we use break in as a general term that applies to other chargers as well.

As Mr Happy pointed out, you can push things to a little bit of a benefit, but the actual difference is not all that great.

Tom


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## SkOrPn (Mar 18, 2013)

I have always selected 200ma (lowest it will go) on my C9000 when charging batteries, especially my beloved Sony Pro's. I was always in assumption that this practice is easier on the batteries. Is this not the case?


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## rwharold (Mar 18, 2013)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Richard,
> 
> I disagree...
> 
> ...



Tom,

Thanks for your comments. Fortunately I own and use a Maha C9000 charger and I love it! It's the best charger on the market. Concerning the use of the discharge cycle first before a break-in cycle, I will continue to do that myself for my Eneloops. I just won't mention this step anymore on Amazon.com to avoid any further conflict with the self proclaimed "expert" who has totally degraded my comments. Some people are just plain rude and like to ridicule others.

Best regards,

Richard


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## SkOrPn (Mar 18, 2013)

rwharold said:


> I just won't mention this step anymore on Amazon.com to avoid any further conflict with the self proclaimed "expert" who has totally degraded my comments. Some people are just plain rude and like to ridicule others.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Richard


Richard, Amazon is full of self proclaimed experts. My brother lost his seller status with Amazon because an expert said he was selling counterfeit Star Trek DVD's. Although we inspected them and could find no flaws what so ever, Amazon did not give my brother the benefit of the doubt and (and never even looked at the disks in question) removed his selling rights permanently. All because an "expert" said they were fake and wanted his money back. The funny thing is every single disk was opened in all the seasons. Hmmm interesting... We got the disks back and compared them to store bought and cant find a single discrepancy as they look identical in every way.

Is this comment under the Maha C9000 charger listing? I'm curious to read them, lol...


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## rwharold (Mar 18, 2013)

SkOrPn said:


> Richard, Amazon is full of self proclaimed experts. My brother lost his seller status with Amazon because an expert said he was selling counterfeit Star Trek DVD's. Although we inspected them and could find no flaws what so ever, Amazon did not give my brother the benefit of the doubt and (and never even looked at the disks in question) removed his selling rights permanently. All because an "expert" said they were fake and wanted his money back. The funny thing is every single disk was opened in all the seasons. Hmmm interesting... We got the disks back and compared them to store bought and cant find a single discrepancy as they look identical in every way.
> 
> Is this comment under the Maha C9000 charger listing? I'm curious to read them, lol...




Hi SkOrPn,

Here is the link for the posting I was referring to: http://www.amazon.com/review/R3083E...age=1&cdThread=Tx39IXZIXU7IJ6G#MxM3OFIGOBMOAP

I would appreciate any comments that you might have.

Richard


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## Rexlion (Mar 18, 2013)

Best to forget it. There will always be some people with "mine is bigger than yours" attitudes out there. Don't stoop to their level.

Of course, the exception is that it's perfectly acceptable around here to brag, "my light is brighter than yours!"


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## holylight (Mar 19, 2013)

wrong post.


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