# Newbie question: Differences between MC-E and P7 LEDs



## genotypic (Feb 2, 2009)

Hi folks,

I've just begun to explore the world of flashlights and really enjoy the friendly community here.

I'm looking for a high powered edc, and just wondering what are the advantages and disadvantages of the MC-E vs the SSC P7. As far as I know the P7 is a bit brighter than the MC-E.

Thanks!

Lx


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## M16 (Feb 2, 2009)

MC-E Max. current 700mA
P7 Max. current 1000A


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## 1996alnl (Feb 2, 2009)

M16 said:


> MC-E Max. current 700mA
> P7 Max. current 1000A


 
Umm,that must be per die. Even that seems low.

I have an MC-E and a P7 pulling in more than 1800mA. and that's with a single 18650 cell.
If i pop in a AW IMR 18650 cell it shoots up to 2300mA.


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## Jarl (Feb 2, 2009)

M16 said:


> P7 Max. current 1000A



I rofl'd 

Manufacturer spec max current for both the P7 and MC-E is 700ma per die (not 1000A). Both have been taken a long way beyond this, though. More details can be found here, post 229 especially. The MC-E's haven't been tested yet, but should perform very similarily.


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## genotypic (Feb 2, 2009)

Would it be correct to assume that both leds, driven at similar currents, have similar output?

I'm looking for a high output, floody edc light for walking in the woods and camping. I'll most probably be using its medium setting, but it's great to have a bright wall of light when I need it. 

Any suggestions?


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## Gary123 (Feb 2, 2009)

There are a lot of criteria that you are leaving unmentioned.

But Saberwolf has been offering an Ultrafire customized with an MC-E for $100. Very bright on burst but gets hot quickly on burst. I don't know if that is still available or not. I have one and like it quite a bit. For such a small light (1 x RCR123) it blows my friends away.


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## Jarl (Feb 2, 2009)

genotypic said:


> Would it be correct to assume that both leds, driven at similar currents, have similar output?



Ish. If they're both high binned, cool white, then yes. However, cree offer the MC-E in warm white, which will have slightly less overall power than the P7, but much nicer colour


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## Marduke (Feb 2, 2009)

Also keep in mind that Cree uses tighter bins, and doesn't change them around to suit their marketing needs. So you know what you are getting. SSC uses HUGE bin sizes, and changes them constantly based off what they can produce.

In general, when you buy out of the "current" SSC bin, you are buying out of the bottom of the bin, and it is not the same as the same bin several months prior to after your purchase time. It truly is a lottery.


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## balou (Feb 2, 2009)

Is there any reason why P7 is much more popular than MC-E?
(just have a look at DX for example..)


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## yellow (Feb 2, 2009)

because of what Marduke typed: the absolute max of the (at the time) actual best Seoul bin is always considerably higher on the datasheet ...
... while the "normal" output and the "lowest guaranteed" output for that bin usually is WAY BELOW Crees. 
Normally the 2nd best Cree bin still kicks the "best" Seoul - even when You get an "average" Seoul.
(learned that the hard way, like most of the ppl typing the same. For me Seoul is only for quick emitter-swaps)

then there is
* the positive slug (P7) --> which does not count by using a Star
* the parallel setup (P7) --> no longer too bad because there are a few good drivers available now (not that DX parts. The ones from Taskled and such) 
* the wider light area (P7) --> when very large refelctor is used (like in that DX-lights), possibly not too much of a difference


Who does not know (and be honest: most makes from such sellers are only bought by who not knows) has to look at _something_. If that is the hightest brightness (even when the chance to get such a model are very small) is not a bad idea.
Also, with these models the "problem" is not the led that is used, its the electronics that perform accordingly to their price. 

PS: 
P7, parallel setup --> current of 4*700mA= 2.8 A to get the output stated
MC-E, series setup --> current of 700mA to get the output stated
if lower --> not that output


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## spencer (Feb 2, 2009)

balou said:


> Is there any reason why P7 is much more popular than MC-E?
> (just have a look at DX for example..)


The P7 has been out for considerably longer than the MC-E. I think the P7 is coming up on a year and the MC-E is at 5ish (I think) months.


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## 2xTrinity (Feb 2, 2009)

> MC-E Max. current 700mA
> P7 Max. current 1000A


Both are rated at 7000mA per die. 

The P7 is hard-wired with all four dice in parallel, so it is rated at ~2.8A at ~3.3V

In the case of the MC-Es, the dice are independently addressable. This means that the user can choose to wire all four in parallel (like the P7-- 2.8A @3.3V), or run 2-series, 2parallel (1.4A @ 6.6V), or all four dice in series (700mA @ 13.2V) In many cases, series-wiring works out to be a lot more efficient, especially in cases like fixed lighting projects, it's a lot easier to find DC adapters that output ~1amp at ~15 volts, than ~3 amps at 5 volts. The option for series wiring, as well as the availability in warm- and neutral-white colors is the main reason I personally prefer the MC-E.

A few other differences, the MC-E's dome is the same diameter as the aluminum "ring" on the XR-E. This means reflector and optics that could fit the XR-E will also fit the MC-E (I have use tri- and quad-optics like these from DX successfully with the MC-E).

The P7 is much larger. this means it won't fit in small reflectors. However the larger dome does have its benefits. The apparent die size is somewhat smaller in the P7. This means the beam from a P7 will be more concentrated (better throw) than an MC-E used in a similarly-sized _large_ reflector. Also, the dark "+" shaped void in between the four led dice is also somewhat less apparent with the P7 for this reason, so P7 is better suited for use with simple aluminum reflectors, like say throwing into a Maglite head. For the MC-E I'd recommend using TIR optics (like the plastic ones I linked to) or heavily textured reflectors to mask the dark void.


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## TexLite (Feb 2, 2009)

Marduke said:


> Also keep in mind that Cree uses tighter bins, and doesn't change them around to suit their marketing needs. So you know what you are getting. SSC uses HUGE bin sizes, and changes them constantly based off what they can produce.


 
Thats an unfair and inaccurate statement.

The Cree MC-E bins have a range 60lm @ 350mA.Extrapolating the "M" bin by the datasheet figure of 1.75,you end up with a range of 752-857lm @ 2800mA,or 105lm.

The SSC P7 "D" bin is 800-900lm @ 2800mA,a range of 100lm.

Also,the datasheet bins were changed _once_ for the P7 and it was to _narrow_ the bins. 



Marduke said:


> ...It truly is a lottery.


 
I fail to see how this equates to lottery that is present with the P7 and not the MC-E,especially considering the fact that SSC bins for Vf,and Cree does not.You can't buy a specific Vf bin with Cree,with SSC you can.

Both are great emitters,each having unique characteristics.

-Michael


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## Marduke (Feb 2, 2009)

The SSC P7 data sheet has been changed once _SO FAR_. They did the same sort of misleading marketing for the P4 model, by splitting the U bin AFTER they were able to make a few measly samples which BARELY fell into the now "premium" bin.

Statistically, SSC bins are usually truncated, not typical (average) properties.


Just watch. The C bin became both C and D. Eventually we will have C1 and C2, and D1 and D2.

Pure marketing BS.


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## phantom23 (Feb 3, 2009)

Marduke said:


> The SSC P7 data sheet has been changed once _SO FAR_. They did the same sort of misleading marketing for the P4 model, by splitting the U bin AFTER they were able to make a few measly samples which BARELY fell into the now "premium" bin.



They split C to C and D way before they made any D binned emitter. Besides in 750-854lm MC-E M bin don't be so sure you'll get more than 800lm. With such big range it's possible that they released them as soon as they've reached something over 750lm...



2xTrinity said:


> This means reflector and optics that could fit the XR-E will also fit the MC-E (I have use tri- and quad-optics like these from DX successfully with the MC-E).



But you will get unpredictable beam (no hotspot, artifacts).


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## Superdave (Feb 3, 2009)

Both are extremely bright. The P7 performs well in a large reflector like a Maglite.. the MC-E seems to do well in a smaller reflector. I have one direct driven off of an 18650 in a 6P and it works very well. It also fits the old Cree Q5 reflector perfectly. 

I'd EDC it but it's just too bright for daily use.


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## 2xTrinity (Feb 3, 2009)

phantom23 said:


> They split C to C and D way before they made any D binned emitter. Besides in 750-854lm MC-E M bin don't be so sure you'll get more than 800lm. With such big range it's possible that they released them as soon as they've reached something over 750lm...
> 
> 
> 
> But you will get unpredictable beam (no hotspot, artifacts).


Not every reflector that physically fits will necessarily work. However, several different aluminum reflectors, and those _particular optics I linked to worked well. The optics actually do produce hotspots with some gaps/artifacts if only one is used at a time. However, if 3 or 4 MC-Es are used, the result actually "averages out" into a nice bright hot spot. Granted that might not work in every case. Hoewver, there still are a lot more options in XR-E reflectors and Optics than dedicated P7 reflectors and optics._


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## ledstein (Feb 4, 2009)

Just run away from any power led that needs high current to function. High current means high heat and for that you need a real huge heatsink. Its just buying a 4 ghz dual core cpu that needs liquid nitrogen to work. 

This is whats wrong with the P7, Seoul says 2800mA max which is just huge.
M-CE is much better, at 350mA it has more than 400lm and the heat is far less.


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## phantom23 (Feb 4, 2009)

ledstein said:


> This is whats wrong with the P7, Seoul says 2800mA max which is just huge.
> M-CE is much better, at 350mA it has more than 400lm and the heat is far less.



P7 has 2800mA max which is 700mA per die. MC-E produces (K bin) ~400lm @350mA but *per die* (1400mA) and it's worse than P7 C (440lm according to 'jtr1962' testing)! Max current in MC-E is 700mA per die = 2800mA...


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## ledstein (Feb 5, 2009)

phantom23 said:


> P7 has 2800mA max which is 700mA per die. MC-E produces (K bin) ~400lm @350mA but *per die* (1400mA) and it's worse than P7 C (440lm according to 'jtr1962' testing)! Max current in MC-E is 700mA per die = 2800mA...



As far as i know the P7 doesnt have the option to independently drive the led chips. For MCE you can hook the chips and series and drive them at 350mA and around 12V (actually the current is important because its a very common value for constant current powersupplys). I really dont know where you can get a 2800mA powersupply...

P7 might be brighter (can i see a link for that?) but is far less user friendy. 

ps: the above argument is based on star leds and for led use in general, not only for flashlights.


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## phantom23 (Feb 5, 2009)

But for flashlights it's easier to find 2,8A 3,5V driver than 700mA 12V one.

Link for [email protected]


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## znomit (Feb 5, 2009)

ledstein said:


> I really dont know where you can get a 2800mA powersupply...


Heres a nice one.
http://www.taskled.com/techhipflex.html


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## ledstein (Feb 6, 2009)

Flashlights are not really my strong point. So if 2800mA is easily available i guess P7 is the right choice. 

There is a saying " the devil is in the details":devil:.


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## TexLite (Feb 6, 2009)

ledstein said:


> Just run away from any power led that needs high current to function. High current means high heat and for that you need a real huge heatsink. Its just buying a 4 ghz dual core cpu that needs liquid nitrogen to work.


 
The power dissipation of the P7 and the MC-E are virtually identical when driven at max current.

The MC-E is no more efficient than the P7.

Both are ~10W when driven at max spec,its no easier to cool one than the other.



ledstein said:


> This is whats wrong with the P7, Seoul says 2800mA max which is just huge.
> M-CE is much better, at 350mA it has more than 400lm and the heat is far less.


 
You can drive the P7 at 1400mA for the same efficiency of the MC-E @ 350mA,which is actually 350mA x 4,which is 1400mA,the same as the P7(1400mA x 1).

Bottom Line on Output efficiency:

Seoul P7:
~400lm @ 4.48W (1400mA x 3.2Vf) = 89.28 lm/W.
~800lm @ 9.8W (2800mA x 3.5Vf) = 81.63 lm/W.

Cree MC-E:
~400lm @ 4.48W (350mA x 3.2Vf x 4) = 89.28 lm/W.
~800lm @ 9.52W (700mA x 3.4Vf x 4) = 84.03 lm/W.

Edit:
Also,a note on the concept of "buying out of the bottom of the bin" Marduke mentioned with SSC.The D bin P7 is 800-900lm,the M bin MC-E extrapolated (because Cree dosen't quote output @ 700mA per die) equates to 752-857lm,48lm _lower _than where the D bin P7 _starts._My take is its irrelevant until we have more information. 

-Michael


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