# 130 Lumen Apex Question



## Stevie (Nov 21, 2008)

Hi,

I'm hoping someone in the know can enlighten me (forgive the pun).

I currently own the old 60 lumen Apex, which is decent enough for my night hiking and camping. If you know about the old Apex, then you'll know that this has a regulated run time of 1 hour and a claimed 56m beam on high.

Then a while ago the 80 Lumen version came out, at the time this stated a regulated run time of 2.5 hours and a 96m beam on high.

So, now the new 130 lumen verion is out and I see from Princeton Tec's website that the regulated run time has now dropped back down to 1 hour - but the beam length has not increased and remains at 96m.

Why is this? I would expect that with more luminosity and reduced regulated run time, the beam length would have a greater throw than 96m. Only thing I can think of is that the beam is more diffused so even though the luminosity has increased the light is more spread so the throw remains un-altered.

Is this right??

I know it's only just come out, but I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who has the new model to see what the leaflet inside the box states regarding throw and runtimes. Sometimes manufacturer's websites can give the wrong info... 

Cheers - Steve


----------



## Yucca Patrol (Nov 21, 2008)

Princeton Tec is really bad when it comes to updating their website.

The 130 lumen version will certainly be a lot brighter and will throw a beam further than your older model.

Although I do not have this new model (I have a home-modified version that is essentially the same), the runtimes should be about the same as the biggest reason for the increased brightness is increased efficiency of the LED emitter.


----------



## codypop (Nov 27, 2008)

First post, so forgive any poor etiquette.

Yucca Patrol, could you link any instructions to mod the old headlamp with the new emitter, and also the source of the emitter? Thanks

codypop

edit: worked out how to search, found the article I was looking for. Thanks


----------



## Haz (Dec 3, 2008)

does anyone know where you can buy this from with international shipping, thanks


----------



## yellow (Dec 3, 2008)

1st of all: 100 meter with a led light: decide for Yourself

non increased distance could be explained by a broader beam shape, the earlier models did get some mentions because of tight beam :thinking:

now let us - just for now - assume there is no heat problem, so the light does not overheat (kills led), does not dim down, ...
... with 4 AAs an actual led could be pushed on max power (800-900 mAh) for roughly 2.5 hours. But then the output should be something in the 220+ lm: _something strange with the data_
the previous model offered a more possible runtime/brightness connection (with its Luxeon emitter)

Maybe the model(s) tested did reduce output at 1 hour because of excess heat? Could be a possibility.
(I do wonder if the sink is enough when there is no moving air around. While riding a bike, I can see it work. But only with moving) ... :thinking:


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Dec 3, 2008)

Haz said:


> does anyone know where you can buy this from with international shipping, thanks


Lighthound ships worldwide:

http://www.lighthound.com/Headlamps_c_135-1.html


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Dec 3, 2008)

yellow said:


> 1st of all: 100 meter with a led light: decide for Yourself
> 
> non increased distance could be explained by a broader beam shape, the earlier models did get some mentions because of tight beam :thinking:
> 
> ...


The Apex has a HUGE heatsink, I doubt it has any problems with heating from the emitter. Especially with more efficient SSC-P4. The Lux 3 ran way hotter.


----------



## yellow (Dec 4, 2008)

sure it has, but it has nothing that moves the heat _away _and is partly covered by the housing.
It can get hot: yes
It can move heat away good: no (when not used for running or biking, or ...)
(but it has the best sink any production headlamp has, thats right!)

A light that powers the led (from 4 AAs and regulated) with FULL possible power, gives 200+ lumen, runs for _three_ hours continuously and gets brutally hot while doing so.
Without been hold in hand (blood moves heat away) or moving air (use on bike) it will be around 60-65 deg C (almost to hot to handle) or even higher.

The data here state a _ONE_ hour runtime till light starts to loose regulation, imagine how hot such a light must be. This one wont be able to be hold in hand.
The Apex, without forced air cooling, would melt the housing (or cook the led, as any other light powered like this would)
therefore, as I typed: *something wrong with data*

when really 130 lm, the runtime on high should be something like 5-6 hours
(assumption: that makes about 450 mA to the led, is that a good value?)


PS: that points are, for the op, no help 
You can just purchase one and give it a try, or wait for others to post their findings


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Dec 4, 2008)

yellow said:


> sure it has, but it has nothing that moves the heat _away _and is partly covered by the housing.
> It can get hot: yes
> It can move heat away good: no (when not used for running or biking, or ...)
> (but it has the best sink any production headlamp has, thats right!)
> ...





> A light that powers the led (from 4 AAs and regulated) with FULL possible power, gives 200+ lumen, runs for _three_ hours continuously and gets brutally hot while doing so.



Something is wrong with your assumptions there... 4xAA alkalines (not lithium nor Eneloops) cannot deliver 200+ lumens for 3 hours at full power, neither 130 lumens for 5 to 6 hours fully regulated. That's a VERY optimistic estimative. Princeton Tec data is based on the use of common alkalines (the Apex was calibrated to operate with the alkaline's limitation in mind), so one full hour at 130 lumens 'out-the-front' sounds pretty good to me. Battery chemistry is the limitation here, not heat.


----------



## yellow (Dec 4, 2008)

then correct my maths:

1 AA (Ni-Mh): 2200 mAh
Voltage (average): 1.3 V
4 AAs: 5.2 V

led at 220 lumen: 900 mA
led at 130 lumen: 450 mA (assumption)
voltage needed: 3.8 V

voltage available: 4/3 (explanation: 1/3 more than needed. three cells were 3/3)

*220 lm *--> 900 mA --> / 4/3 --> 675 mA --> 2200 / 675 --> *3.3 h*
*130 lm *--> 450 mA --> / 4/3 --> 338 mA --> 2200 / 340 --> *6.5 h*
(an alkaline should stand those 340 mA, imho.)

note: I am SURPRISED now, because (when You check for that) I did make all the data worse than in my 1st very rough "over the thumb" post. Now used the calculator and made current to led higher, but still runtime gets better. 
even considering some losses: 220 lm --> 3 hours, 130 lm --> 6 hours

where is the error, there must be one? :thinking:
[edit]
idea: could it be that somehow the data was mixed with the one for the EOS? This one might stand "just" 1 hour
[/edit]


----------



## NoFair (Dec 5, 2008)

You are forgetting losses due to the optic and lens at least. Tad optimistic average voltage on the NiMH cells as well.

PT are usually conservative with their brightness/runtime estimations so that might also contribute.

PT are probably also giving runtimes for alkalines which suck badly in most brighter lights.

Sverre


----------



## WDR65 (Dec 11, 2008)

Does anyone have one of the 130 lumen models yet and perhaps a stock 60 lumen model to stack up against it? I'm very curious about how much difference there is in the beams.


----------



## Tuna (Dec 12, 2008)

I just got one of the 130 lumen versions but I can't open it to test it. Its a x-mas gift for my dad!


----------



## MorpheusT1 (Dec 12, 2008)

I have a Upgraded 60 lumen version + the 80 Lumen version and a 130 Lumen version.


The output is amazing in comparison.

They even upgraded the 5mm Leds on the new model.


I would say the throw is about the same but the overall output and flood is much better.
The Tint of the Led is also improved on the main emitter and 5mm leds.

I have not opened it to see what kind of led it sports and wont do it just yet..Its perfect the way it is.

Go get one.


But...
If you have modding skills,popping a Seoul in the 60 lumen version is not to shabby either.
Upgraded 60 lumen version. Great throw with less sidespill than the new 130 lumen version.

I prefer the New model over my upgraded 60 Lumen PT -Apex.
Why...
More useful beams and the 5mm leds are whiter and brighter.



:wave:
Benny


----------



## WDR65 (Dec 12, 2008)

I have thought about modding mine, but now that you mention the upgraded 5mm led's that clinches it for me. I want one. I'll just have to wait until after Christmas to see where things go with work and otherwise. Its not a good time for me to have many wants, lol.


----------



## NoFair (Dec 13, 2008)

MorpheusT1 said:


> I have a Upgraded 60 lumen version + the 80 Lumen version and a 130 Lumen version.
> 
> 
> The output is amazing in comparison.
> ...


 
Huff og huff, da må jeg kanskje kjøpe en til meg selv også og ikke bare noen til presanger

Might have to get one for myself as well (for the non Noggins)

Sverre


----------



## Cavelightchris (Dec 13, 2008)

yellow said:


> sure it has, but it has nothing that moves the heat _away _and is partly covered by the housing.
> It can get hot: yes
> It can move heat away good: no (when not used for running or biking, or ...)
> (but it has the best sink any production headlamp has, thats right!)
> ...



I thought I read once about someone testing the 60 lm Apex, and they said it was running at 650ma. Does anybody know if this is correct?

Also, isnt the P4 modded 60 lm one just as bright as the new one? That would also lead me to believe that all they did was an emitter swap, and if that is the case the new one will have all of the exact same runtimes as the old one, in every mode, it's just the new one will be over twice as efficient.

I know the Luxeon could handle 700ma, and I didn't expect Princeton Tec(PT) to drive it at it's absolute maximum, since that is how it builds the most heat and all.

I was sure that the only thing PT would do to the new one is put a new emitter in it, and still have it run at 650ma.

If they ran a p4 at 650ma, and then took in to count the loss at the reflector, and lens, then maybe that is how they came up with 130 lumens. Maybe they even tested it on one of those expensive machines and it came out to be 130 lumens. It might not just be conservative, but right on point.

I'm glad to hear about the new 5mm's, and all of my friends complain about the blue tint of the old one, and I thought it was rediculous as well, so it figures PT would.


----------



## MorpheusT1 (Dec 13, 2008)

To me,


It seems they either changed the optics or is using a diffrent emitter than the 
Seoul.

Id really hate to open it now i dont want to compromise anything. YET.





Benny


----------



## NoFair (Dec 16, 2008)

Come on Benny, just a little peek inside 

Wonder if I could use 2 Seouls instead of the 4 Nichas for flood.... :thinking:

Shouldn't need too much heatsinking and the beam should be wonderful

Sverre


----------



## MorpheusT1 (Dec 16, 2008)

Damn......



OK.

Stay Tuned!!


Will open it tonight and take pictures for you to see.
Feel free to bump this thread, i get distracted easily.


----------



## MorpheusT1 (Dec 16, 2008)

Opened it 


Its got a Seoul for sure,weird i get a totally diffrent beam with my upgraded one.I used a Shim to get the focus right on that one...maybe thats where the narrower beam comes from.


Will post pics later.
Benny


----------



## MorpheusT1 (Dec 16, 2008)




----------



## NoFair (Dec 16, 2008)

Thank you Benny:twothumbs

I use no shims with my Apex' with Seouls and get a slightly wider beam than with the luxeon using the stock optic. I actually like the beam a lot and have put other modding ideas (reflectors) on hold.

Sverre


----------



## Stevie (Dec 17, 2008)

Very interesting, don't suppose there is any chance of some beamshots comparing the 130 Lumen model against the 60 Lumen model?

Thanks for everybodys comments.

Steve


----------



## bonvivantmike (Dec 17, 2008)

Is there any cosmetic difference between the old Apex and the new? If I wanted to go to REI to check out the new one, how could I tell it was the new one?


----------



## Stevie (Dec 18, 2008)

I don't think that there is a difference cosmetically, even the available colors are the same - but I believe that the new model has "130 Lumen" stated on the packaging.

Other than that, I don't think there's a difference.


----------



## grnamin (Dec 18, 2008)

I received my 120-lumen Apex Pro last night and tested it against my 80-lumen with an SSC P4. The light intensity difference was hardly noticeable.


----------



## coors (Dec 19, 2008)

Where did you get the 120 lumen Apex Pro model from? I've scoured eBay's listings and convinced myself that that there wasn't a Pro model, yet. I'm very glad that you posted that there is one though. I can't remember, do these take two 3.6v rcr123 batteries, or do they both have to be 3.0v?

coors


----------



## Yucca Patrol (Dec 19, 2008)

NoFair said:


> Thank you Benny:twothumbs
> 
> I use no shims with my Apex' with Seouls and get a slightly wider beam than with the luxeon using the stock optic. I actually like the beam a lot and have put other modding ideas (reflectors) on hold.
> 
> Sverre



I also bought the reflectors that people were suggesting, but found that I too liked the beam with the stock optic better for my caving purposes. So I took out the reflectors and left the stock optic. . .


----------



## coors (Dec 19, 2008)

Ooops...I meant 130 lumen. Never mind, I found 2x of the 130 lumen Apex Pro headlamps on eBay, now.

coors


----------



## Ace12 (Dec 26, 2008)

Is the reflector in the standard 130lm Apex the same in the 130lm Apex pro? Reason I ask is because the PT website shows different beam patterns for the two. I'm thinking about getting one and trying to decide wich is better for me.


----------



## Ace12 (Dec 27, 2008)

ttt


----------



## NoFair (Dec 27, 2008)

Ace12 said:


> Is the reflector in the standard 130lm Apex the same in the 130lm Apex pro? Reason I ask is because the PT website shows different beam patterns for the two. I'm thinking about getting one and trying to decide wich is better for me.


 
They aren't reflectors, but optics and in mine they are exactly the same. 

Sverre


----------



## Ace12 (Dec 28, 2008)

If the optics are the same, why do they show diferent beam patterns on the website? The apex on "maxbrithg High" shows narrow beam, the apex pro on "Maxbright high" shows wide beam, but they both show the same distance of throw.

By the way, does anyone ahve any beamshots of the new apex 130lm? I 'm curious if the 5mm leds are plenty bright enough for work.


----------



## Haz (Dec 28, 2008)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Lighthound ships worldwide:
> 
> http://www.lighthound.com/Headlamps_c_135-1.html


 
Thanks Outdoors Fanatic, getting one ordered!


----------

