# Z41 Smart Switch



## Mattaus

Hi all :wave:

Introducing the SmartSwitch - a high power, low resistance, dual momentary flashlight clicky switch.

*Physical Details
*
There are 3 versions of the smart switch:

*Z41 ULP Switch
*
The Z41 ULP SmartSwitch is an ultra-low-profile switch that once installed consumes less than 7mm of battery space (boot and spring included). This is ideal for use in setups that require maximum utilization of the tube space available. Due to the physical design of this switch it is only compatible with Z41 tail caps or similar.​
*Z52 Switch
*
The Z52 SmartSwitch is a direct replacement for a McClicky switch and shares the same physical dimensions and threading properties.​
*Z57 Switch
*
The Z57 SmartSwitch is compatible only with SureFire Z57 clicky tail caps.​ 
*
Electrical Details
*
While the physical packaging of the 3 switches are different, the functionality and electronics of the switches themselves are identical. The details are as follows:



MOSFET based switch
Forward and reverse momentary operation
Microprocessor controlled
CR1025 3V Coin cell powered
MOSFET rated to 20V and 30A *absolute maximum**
Coin cell voltage monitoring
In standby mode the switch will last over 10yrs.
In active mode the switch will last the equivalent of leaving a light on for 3 days straight.

The 3 day switching time is based on the user _actively_ holding the switch in. If the user has permanently turned the switch on and then released the switch (so the light is still on) the MCU returns to a deep sleep mode. If you had a main battery large enough you could turn this switch on once and it would run for over 10 years. Simply put, under normal operating conditions 3 days is the absolute worst case scenario, with typical use far exceeding this time.

Testing completed at this point in time (2.5 months of daily use) has revealed that the coin cell is yet to drop below 3V. Despite having been in use for 2 months, this cell is effectively brand new.

* I strongly recommend that the MOSFET ratings are not pushed too hard, with safe usage theoretically being around 10V/15A. 

*
Theory of Operation
*
People seemed to like VanIsle's FETtie switch. In principle it was a great idea. However I saw a few reported issues with it and after doing a bit of research it boils down to the following.

FETs have a turn on Voltage (Vgs​) which when reached means the FET is fully on. At this fully on state the resistance from the Drain to Source (Rds​ - basically the resistance between the flashlight host and the battery negative terminal) will be at its lowest. This value differs from FET to FET. MOSFETs will start switching on even if Vgs ​is not reached. At this lower on-voltage Rds​ is _increased_. With increased resistance comes an increase in power being burnt off as heat. FETs can only handle so much power before they go up in smoke. The FET used by the FETtie, whilst capable of turning on properly with voltages as low as 3V, does not actually turn on properly much lower than that. So while the FETtie would have worked perfectly on a fresh cell, not long after first use it would have slowly started cooking itself. The more the coin cell is allowed to deplete, the worse the situation gets. 

Eventually every FETtie would fry itself unless the coin cell was replaced reasonably regularly.

So the key was to find a FET that can turn on properly at sufficiently low voltages for this application. The FET the SmartSwitch uses guarantees full turn on at 1.8V. In order to ensure the switch doesn't attempt to operate at too low a voltage, a microcontroller has been incorporated to monitor the voltage of the coin cell. Once a low voltage threshold is reached the SmartSwitch will dim and return to full brightness 0.5s after it's turned on, and then once every 2s. This warning is only present while the switch is actively pressed. To allow for any errors in the accuracy of the voltage readings, the low voltage cut off in the SmartSwitch is 1.9V.

There is a secondary advantage to having a microcontroller/MOSFET pairing inside the switch - we can have forward AND reverse momentary action. No more picking one or the other :thumbsup:

The switch is basically the same as used in digital cameras. The momentary action (opposite of the current permanent state) is enacted with a half press and a permanent action is enacted with a full press. It's totally different to a McClicky as there is a very distinct difference between the momentary and permanent action. Operation of momentary mode is near silent, with a permanent press being audible, but nowhere near as loud as the click of a conventional switch. The best example of this type of switching would be the pre-focus on a digitial camera.

*Proof of Concept and Functional Demonstration*








*
Z52 Render

*



*

Z57 Render*






As always any questions, comments, and suggestions are encouraged.

Thanks,

- Matt


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## climberkid

Talk to me more about the lockout options for this. 

I love the idea of this switch.
Is it running the hyperion programming or am I missing the intent of this switch replacing or not replacing a multi mode driver? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## Tofty

Excellent switch Matt.
Sounds like, electronically speaking, the switch is pretty much ready to go, which is always nice to hear, just some minor mechanical and programming considerations to address.
Looking forward to seeing this switch for sale.

For the low voltage warning; will it trigger every time you try and change modes or just when the light is turned on and off? if it's only when the light is switched off and on then perhaps the switch could cycle through modes every half a second for 5 seconds or so then not blink again allowing the light to be used without distraction. The mode cycling should very clearly catch the users attention but then not immobilise the light thereafter. A mode change every two seconds would leave the light pretty much unuseable which would be a real problem in an emergency. I first though it would be a good idea to have the switch cycle through all the light's modes once or twice then leave you with the mode it would have started on originally, but i realise that is impossible as the switch cannot know how many modes the light has.


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## Moddoo

Looks good Matt,
When we spoke about this earlier this year, I was also prototyping with a 2 stage switch.
I have chosen to take my setup a slightly different direction. It is taking some time to perfect with other things eating up a lot of my time.
Looks like you are pretty close to finishing this up. I will be interested in testing it out when available.
My general policy is to not discuss my projects in public until they are ready to deliver. I'll not say more until that is true.

Best of luck on this, it seems to be working well.
Cheers


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## mvyrmnd

Very very cool.

Will this fit in an E-series tailcap, as a McClicky without the brass ring does?


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## badtziscool

Very nice! I'd love to see how this turns out but so far it looks great.


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## archimedes

Is this just for high-current handling, or are there any additional features (such as soft-start, pwm modes, voltage blink-out, strobe, etc) ?


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## Mattaus

climberkid said:


> Is it running the hyperion programming or am I missing the intent of this switch replacing or not replacing a multi mode driver?



It is not running any "Driver programming". It is intended to compliment existing multi-mode drivers. There a re a few reasons for this but the main one is that in order for this to "control" a driver/light/whatever, said light would have to be single mode only. I also don't know how well the FET I've chosen would react to PWM switching. I might have to dig around though it is certainly not my intention for this capability to be included. It could possibly be done, but then it'd be a fundamentally different device to what I posted above.



Tofty said:


> Excellent switch Matt.
> Sounds like, electronically speaking, the switch is pretty much ready to go, which is always nice to hear, just some minor mechanical and programming considerations to address.
> Looking forward to seeing this switch for sale.
> 
> For the low voltage warning; will it trigger every time you try and change modes or just when the light is turned on and off? if it's only when the light is switched off and on then perhaps the switch could cycle through modes every half a second for 5 seconds or so then not blink again allowing the light to be used without distraction. The mode cycling should very clearly catch the users attention but then not immobilise the light thereafter. A mode change every two seconds would leave the light pretty much unuseable which would be a real problem in an emergency. I first though it would be a good idea to have the switch cycle through all the light's modes once or twice then leave you with the mode it would have started on originally, but i realise that is impossible as the switch cannot know how many modes the light has.



Electronically speaking yes. The prototype above is "ghetto'd together" lol. I mean it won't change much, but I am waiting on some special components to arrive to make assembly cleaner and easier. There's also the small issue of a battery carrier that we previously spoke about. I'm getting dimensions as we speak 

The voltage monitoring is activated *only* when the button is actively being pressed. So the low voltage blinks will only do their thing if you are holding the switch at either position. If you have it on permanently (and are thus not holding the switch) it won't give any indication that somethings up. That's why I currently have it set to 0.5s - it's fast enough that you likely won't miss the blink if you're using the momentary feature.

You're spot on about the number of modes being an issue in whatever host the switch is installed.

I'm actually thinking climberkid might have struck a cord earlier. What if PWM dimming did work? If it was fast enough would the light even know it's being turned on or off? In this case could I possibly set the low voltage warning to actually be a "dip" in output? Press the switch and the light quickly (like over the space of 2 seconds or something) ramps down and then back up. No mode change, and it won't do it again until you release and press again.

Might have to look into it.



Moddoo said:


> Looks good Matt,
> When we spoke about this earlier this year, I was also prototyping with a 2 stage switch.
> I have chosen to take my setup a slightly different direction. It is taking some time to perfect with other things eating up a lot of my time.
> Looks like you are pretty close to finishing this up. I will be interested in testing it out when available.
> My general policy is to not discuss my projects in public until they are ready to deliver. I'll not say more until that is true.



Sorry if I've inadvertently forced you to reveal your cards. It was not my intention  PM sent.



archimedes said:


> Is this just for high-current handling, or are there any additional features (such as soft-start, pwm modes, voltage blink-out, strobe, etc) ?



As sort of described above anything other than switching the lights main power supply is tricky without changing the entire focus of the switch. My goal with this switch was to develop a better FETtie. I think I've done that. The dual momentary functionality was a bonus. 

Soft start functionality might be doable if the PWM option works. I don't really know much about soft-start but I believe this is focused more on incans? Are there any LED lights that require soft start? How would an LED driver react to soft start?

It's readin' time!

- Matt


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## Mattaus

mvyrmnd said:


> Will this fit in an E-series tailcap, as a McClicky without the brass ring does?



Totally missed this for some reason. As it currently stands the switch fits the entire inside dimensions of a McClicky adapter. This means that the switch is the same size as the McClicky, *including* the threading. I'll need to work out how deep the threading goes, but if I can get the switch to fit in an e-series host it would be cool 

I should point out that the brass ring in the original post is a home made McClicky adapter. So the switch is the PCB parts, and is not inclusive of the brass ring in the pictures.

- Matt


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## moshow9

I must plead ignorance in regards to these types of switches, but I do have a question: Is the CR1025 3V Coin cell user replaceable? Or is it a one and done type thing once the coin cell has been depleted?


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## Mattaus

moshow9 said:


> I must plead ignorance in regards to these types of switches, but I do have a question: Is the CR1025 3V Coin cell user replaceable? Or is it a one and done type thing once the coin cell has been depleted?



The coin cell is fully user replaceable. No good having to throw out the whole thing just because the power source is gone. That being said I am taking steps to ensure replacing the cell is as simple as reasonably possible. There's no getting away from having to take the switch out of the light to replace the coin cell, though given the run time of the switch it'd be a once in a blue moon sort of thing. 

Also my 3 day rating in the original post is based on the user _actively_ holding the switch in. So if you have permanently turned the switch on and released the switch (light is on) it's not using anywhere near as much current. Basically put, under normal operating conditions that 3 days is severely under rated 

- Matt


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## moshow9

Well then, count me in as interested and thread subscribed.


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## 880arm

Good stuff Matt. It will be interesting to see how this develops

lovecpf


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Matt,

This is a great offering and I would definitely be interested in one once completed.

My concerns are this:
- Switching time. Will this have any issues working with multimode drivers like your Hyperion of other available firmware options for something like a 105C driver? I ask this because I've had a Tri-EDC threaded to take a V10R Ti switch and I had some initial issues with mode changing on a custom firmware 105C driver. The problem was in the movement of the button. With too much movement it took too long to switch on and off and thus would change level consistently. I had to put a spacer inside the switch so that it would take almost no motion and just a little bit of pressure to turn on and off and then things worked properly. Having watched the video it appears you have already addressed this issue and although the initial operation seems a bit confusing it appears that it would work very well.
- Fitment - I think it would be great that this could be used anywhere as a McClicky replacement option.
- Coin cell battery - I am concerned with the 3 days on time, even if extended to say a week with a slightly lower on current. Have you considered using something like a rechargeable LiIon coin cell or a button cell capacitor (like used in the V10R e-switch)? That way it could charge when the light is off and the user wouldn't be required to change button cell batteries? I am just thinking long term frustration for heavy users who only use that one light and use it a lot having to replace a switch battery often.


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## tobrien

this looks great!


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## Mattaus

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> Switching time. Will this have any issues working with multimode drivers like your Hyperion of other available firmware options for something like a 105C driver? I ask this because I've had a Tri-EDC threaded to take a V10R Ti switch and I had some initial issues with mode changing on a custom firmware 105C driver. The problem was in the movement of the button. With too much movement it took too long to switch on and off and thus would change level consistently. I had to put a spacer inside the switch so that it would take almost no motion and just a little bit of pressure to turn on and off and then things worked properly. Having watched the video it appears you have already addressed this issue and although the initial operation seems a bit confusing it appears that it would work very well.



Touch wood, zero issues. The Hyperion firmware is pretty reliant on fast button pressing and switching, and in all the testing I've done so far the only mistakes I've made is because I apparently have difficulty counting to 8 :duh2:. The switching is instant. I guess the best way to explain it is that with a McClicky or similar switch, the switch actually "switches" over a range. Once the light activates there is still some room to move before it clicks into place. This switch has 3 very distinct positions and the movement between each position feels instantaneous. You can't really feel the move from one position to another. Stupid but relevant example: it's kind of like looking at a finch's (the bird) head - one second it's looking left, and even though you swore it didn't move it's suddenly looking right. Cute little b*stards.



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> Fitment - I think it would be great that this could be used anywhere as a McClicky replacement option.



Yeah my goal tonight will to be to check tolerances.



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> Coin cell battery - I am concerned with the 3 days on time, even if extended to say a week with a slightly lower on current. Have you considered using something like a rechargeable LiIon coin cell or a button cell capacitor (like used in the V10R e-switch)? That way it could charge when the light is off and the user wouldn't be required to change button cell batteries? I am just thinking long term frustration for heavy users who only use that one light and use it a lot having to replace a switch battery often.



I had thought of this a while a go but for some reason dismissed it due to technical reasons. It does depend somewhat on what sort of light engine is being used but so long as there is a mechanical switch where the Smart Switch sits, there is no reason why it would not work. I might have to investigate this. Thanks for the heads up!

- Matt


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## Mattaus

Oh quick question. With the V10r e-switch does it come with any instructions, specifically a set of specifications stating it's intended use? Or is it pretty much assumed it would only be used with the V10r and people are just shoehorning it into other lights? I ask because I think I remember why I didn't go down the capacitor path - most suitable caps are rated at 5.5V max. This makes the switch unsuitable for anything other than single cell lights. This removes one of the advantages of the battery in that it's useable voltage range is instantly limited 

A rechargeable coin cell is also an option but this would require a basic charging circuit and there is next to zero room as it currently stands. That's not say I won't look into it, just that the chances don't seem too good.

I will test my switch thoroughly but I believe you'd be looking at having to swap the coin cell very infrequently. Not as good as never of course.

- Matt


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## psychbeat

So three days of "momentary" or half press 
This could mean years of use for those of us that just turn their lights on & off. 

I'm excited about this - my FETtie fell apart  
I've been fine with a McClickie stuffed w copper braid but would def be interested in one of these. 

Thanks for the hard work!


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## Mattaus

psychbeat said:


> So three days of "momentary" or half press
> This could mean years of use for those of us that just turn their lights on & off.
> 
> I'm excited about this - my FETtie fell apart
> I've been fine with a McClickie stuffed w copper braid but would def be interested in one of these.
> 
> Thanks for the hard work!



Thanks for the kind words 

I'm literally working on a second revision right now. The planned upgrades are a smaller overall diameter so it can fit into e-series hosts. This would oddly enough allow for a larger battery and what I think is actually a cleaner design!

You have a McClicky? Mind telling me (if capable) what the inner diameter of the threads are? I know a McClicky plus threading is 0.682" in diameter, but in order to fit this into an e-series light I need the diameter without the threads. I had two McClickies but sold one with a host and the other ain't coming out of the light it's stuck in!

- Matt


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## jamie.91

I'm supprised its taken so long for someone to do this, well played sir.


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## dlmorgan999

This sounds really nice Matt! I'm anxious to see the finished product.


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## DBCstm

Let me know when it reaches testing stage, my M8 with MT-G2 in DD is too much for a switch with my preference of cells...11.88A is beyond a McClicky I'm pretty sure.  So for now I limit it with laptop pulls. Free the M8!

Thanks for doing this Matt, gonna be helping out a lot of folks!


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## ^^Nova^^

Wow, this sounds really good. E-series compatability would be even better as there are a few triples around for e-series lights now.

Let me know if you need a McClicky, I have a spare I could post you.

Cheers,
Nova


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## Mattaus

^^Nova^^ said:


> Wow, this sounds really good. E-series compatability would be even better as there are a few triples around for e-series lights now.
> 
> Let me know if you need a McClicky, I have a spare I could post you.
> 
> Cheers,
> Nova



No need to send one...reckon you could approximate the minor diameter of the switch? The minor diameter is the total diameter of the switch at it's widest point, minus the height of the threads. So basically measure from the trough of the threading from one side to another. It's all I need to finalize the revision of the switch


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## vinte77

I would be interested in purchasing a switch, subscribed.


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## climberkid

I'll check on mine Matt. My wife has a set of calipers in her office I think I can find. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## Tofty

The diameter of the McClicky switch minus the threads is 15.6mm (that's measured from a McClicky that has had some of the thread machined off for the Z57 conversion).


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## climberkid

There ya go! Thanks Tofty!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## Mattaus

Too slow but thanks for the offer climberkid  And thank you Tofty once again 

It's a little tighter than I thought, but it should still be doable. I'll see what I can come up with. I've already switched to a 3-layer sandwich regardless of size because it allows for easier battery swapping as well as a neater and more robust layout. Overall height is not impacted much either because I've switched to 0.8mm PCBs 

- Matt


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## Tofty

If you'd like i can dimension up the original surefire Z57 switch for you.
I suspect more people have the clicky e-series tailcap (Z57) rather than the twisty/momentary tailcap (Z52), which the McClicky was originally designed to screw into.
Being able to cater for both designs would be a real advantage.


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## Mattaus

Tofty said:


> If you'd like i can dimension up the original surefire Z57 switch for you.
> I suspect more people have the clicky e-series tailcap (Z57) rather than the twisty/momentary tailcap (Z52), which the McClicky was originally designed to screw into.
> Being able to cater for both designs would be a real advantage.



Honestly, I know sweet F.A. about the various SureFire parts. My only first hand experience is with my old C2. I'm open to any thing I can learn here. Whatever one is the smallest is the one I will go for so that fitting the switch into your host of choice is possible with a simple adapter.

So yeah - smallest minor diameter will be what I will try work within.

- Matt


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## Tofty

Right, i've drawn up the e-series clicky switch and i've also taken into account any unused space in the tailcap for the absolute maximum permissible switch size.
I'll post a fully dimensioned picture of it soon along with some compatibility information on the different surefire tailcaps.


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## scottyhazzard

Outstanding work! This will open the doors on a lot projects for people waiting for a robust switch.


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## Mattaus

Tofty said:


> Right, i've drawn up the e-series clicky switch and i've also taken into account any unused space in the tailcap for the absolute maximum permissible switch size.
> I'll post a fully dimensioned picture of it soon along with some compatibility information on the different surefire tailcaps.



Looking forward to it!

Thanks Scotty  I'll reply to your PM shortly.

- Matt

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## ^^Nova^^

I was thinking about this earlier today, would it be possible to make this a direct fir into a Surefire Z41 switch so that we don't have to use an adapter? I assume you could machine a larger housing for Z41 and the small one for McClickie use?

Cheers,
Nova


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## gunga

Wow. I was hoping for an e switch for my haiku. Subscribed!


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## Mattaus

^^Nova^^ said:


> I was thinking about this earlier today, would it be possible to make this a direct fir into a Surefire Z41 switch so that we don't have to use an adapter? I assume you could machine a larger housing for Z41 and the small one for McClickie use?
> 
> Cheers,
> Nova



The plan is to make the switch as small as possible so that it fits all the variants Tofty mentioned earlier on. If the demand is there and this goes up for sale I'll most probably sell it as a kit - the switch, and one of each adapter required for the host you decide to use. The adapter shown in the original post was machined as a test. The ones that come with the switch will have threading. Just pop the switch into the adapter and screw it into the host. 

That's the idea anyway 

- Matt



gunga said:


> Wow. I was hoping for an e switch for my haiku. Subscribed!



If my switch can be considered an upgrade to a Gizmo my life will be complete haha.

- Matt


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## mvyrmnd

Mattaus said:


> If my switch can be considered an upgrade to a Gizmo my life will be complete haha.
> 
> - Matt



It's destined for my Tri-EDC as well  You'll be an upgrade for nearly all the great custom lights!


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## Flucero28

I'm definitely in for one or more of these!


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## scottyhazzard

I have revised my list to Santa and put the Smart Switch at the top. :naughty:


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## Tofty

As promised here's both the McClicky switch and the Surefire Z57 clicky switch, dimensioned to the best of my abilities.





I should explain the colour code:
Blue and green dimensions represent the true dimensions of both switches,
Yellow for the springs represents the maximum compression and yellow for the button represents it's latched position,
Purple represents the maximum diameter the switch could be to still fit inside the Z57 tailcap,
Red represents the extra 1.1mm of switch length from installing a modded McClicky, although this mod means the tailcap screws on 1.1mm less than standard it's still plenty so if your getting short of space then just consider that this increased switch depth is permissible.
For both the McClicky and Z57 switch electrical contact is made directly into an e-series body and does not pass through the tailcap at all as all surfaces are anodised. The z57 negative electrical contact face is in a similar place to the McClicky and is shown on the drawing as the narrow strip running across the switch.


Now for some general Surefire switch information....

There are four tailcaps i will discuss here; the E-series twisty/momentary, the E-series clicky, the C-series twisty/momentary and the C-series clicky. The L-series and probably the A-series tailcaps of no interest as they would need serious re-machining to allow them to hold any sort of clicky switch.

1. E-series twisty/momentary tailcap (Z52-olive drab) is very similar to the standard C-series T/M tailcap in design and operation, just smaller. There is one important difference however; the momentary mechanism is screwed together so can be easily disassembled and removed. A McClicky switch was originally designed by Don to screw straight into this tailcap as a direct replacement of what was there before, although from i remember of trying it before i believe the switch works out to be a bit longer so the tailcap doesn't screw on quite as much as it used to. Anyway these tailcaps have been out of production for quite a while and were directly replaced on all E-series models with the clicky Z57 tailcap.

2. E-series clicky tailcap (Z57-olive drab, Z61-black, Z68-black shrouded) is made up of two parts (not including the switch or boot); the tailcap body and a retaining ring which screws in from the tail end and secures the switch and boot in place, this is why it's switch doesn't have any threading on it. The switch sits onto a shoulder and the boot, which has a much wider skirt than other 14mm boots, sits across the bottom switch face and into a cut-away ring in the tailcap body. I'm slightly dubious as to how waterproof this setup is so it would seem important that any switch to replace the original would need a smooth bottom surface that was as wide as it could possibly be, without too much radiusing at the edge.
There is a McClicky mod that can be done to allow one to replace the Surefire switch but it means the tailcap won't screw on quite as much and if anything it increases the chance of the boot not being completely waterproof due to it's threads and it having a smaller overall diameter.

3. C-series twisty/momentary tailcap (Z41-black) doesn't need too much explanation as most of us own one. A McClicky switch can be installed after removing the momentary mechanism (usually by damaging it) by simply using the Oveready adapter ring.
It's important to point out though that the S1 Solarforce tailcap is not just a straight forward clone of this Surefire one, although as completed units they are interchangeable. The Solarforce tailcap is longer and the internal threads do not go all the way to the bottom as do the Z41 threads so a Mclicky can't be installed using a Oveready adapter ring. The Solarforce switch assembly is quite a bit longer so although it can be installed into the Surefire tailcap it will not allow the tailcap to screw onto a body enough to reach the o-ring.

4. C-series clicky tailcap (Z59-black) was only standard eqiptment on the higher end C-series compatible lights like the U2 so it's ownership is much lower to the point where i doubt making an adapter would be worth while, although this may not be the case. It's construction is very similar to the smaller Z57 with a retaining ring on the tail which holds everything in place. I've never opened on up to get relevant dimensions but i suspect if an adapter can be made to fit the Z57 it would be easy enough to make one for this switch also.

Hope that cleared up the tailcap situation a bit.


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## Mattaus

Wow 

Thank you so much Tofty. All the Zed's (or is is Zee?) now make a lot more sense to me haha. I actually had no idea the numbers changed based on colour as well...I think it's a horrible naming convention. But hey, I don't run SureFire lol.

I'm not sure what the best way to approach this is now. Width wise I can get the switch diameter (just the actual switch, no adapter) to 15.4mm. Height is a non-issue. My current Smart Switch prototype comes in at under 9mm and the revision works out to less than 11mm. Both heights include the physical switch that sits on top, but not the spring. On the base of the switch is a central contact pad that the spring is soldered to. This makes contact with the negative terminal of the battery. There is then a ring that runs around the edge of the bottom PCB. This connects to the adapter/battery tube:







I'll have to read back through your post several times until it clicks, but I'm hoping that given the dimensions provided above I can simply leave the switch as is (at revision 2) and an adapter could be designed to allow the switch to fit pretty much any of the mentioned hosts? 

As far as I can tell it will come down to the adapter to ensure compatibility as the physical design of the switch and related PCBs are somewhat limited in what they can do.

Thoughts?

- Matt


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## psychbeat

It's mos def "zeeee" in 'Merican


Regular C adapters are priority I hope


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## Mattaus

psychbeat said:


> It's mos def "zeeee" in 'Merican
> 
> 
> Regular C adapters are priority I hope



But I speak the Queen's English. Or a bogan equivalent anyway lol.

This switch started life as a C-series switch so that will be my first port of call without a doubt. The fact it appears small enough to fit any host (with an appropriate adapter) is a bonus 

- Matt


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## Mattaus

So last night myself and a bunch of my friends had a "boys night" because all our lady friends have gone away for the weekend. Lot's drinking and dubious behavior ensued. The switch was tested to it's limits all night by people who knew what they were doing, those that have never handled a light like this before, stone sober people all the way to spastic drunk/barely conscious. It was dropped (more than once :scowl. The Hyperion settings were configured and reconfigured constantly. My brother tried playing a game to see how fast he could change modes. Repeatedly.

The switch never tripped up. It was absolutely faultless 

I hope I haven't jinxed myself.

- Matt


----------



## mvyrmnd

Mattaus said:


> So last night myself and a bunch of my friends had a "boys night" because all our lady friends have gone away for the weekend. Lot's drinking and dubious behavior ensued. The switch was tested to it's limits all night by people who knew what they were doing, those that have never handled a light like this before, stone sober people all the way to spastic drunk/barely conscious. It was dropped (more than once :scowl. The Hyperion settings were configured and reconfigured constantly. My brother tried playing a game to see how fast he could change modes. Repeatedly.
> 
> The switch never tripped up. It was absolutely faultless
> 
> I hope I haven't jinxed myself.
> 
> - Matt



If only all flashlights were tested by a bunch of drunken blokes...


----------



## DBCstm

mvyrmnd, you mean they AREN'T?


----------



## 880arm

DBCstm said:


> mvyrmnd, you mean they AREN'T?



Some are :drunk:


----------



## mvyrmnd

DBCstm said:


> mvyrmnd, you mean they AREN'T?



I'm wondering if that's the secret to Surefire's renowned dependability....


----------



## Mattaus

Instead of "**** ups" I'll just arrange more "testing nights" 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## gunga

I would happily test the switch in a drunken rage if you need beta testers.


----------



## dlmorgan999

gunga said:


> I would happily test the switch in a drunken rage if you need beta testers.


It's so nice to see you offer to take one for the team!


----------



## DBCstm

Well, I hope something happens pretty fast...I just put my last McClicky in one of my hotmods, another switch bites the dust!


----------



## Mattaus

Working hard on it. Busy reworking the packaging to ensure full compatibility with e-series lights as well.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## DBCstm

As with so many things, wouldn't it be nice if there were global standarization in play? For some things it would only make sense, a one-size-fits all approach would save so much time and money, allowing r&d for things that really matter. A tail switch in a flashlight should not be proprietary. People everywhere have these things fail, if it were simple to pop another in, available most anywhere, oh, wait, I must be dreaming...we're a high tech civilization, competent technology is beyond us due to politics and competition, profits over global benefit, what was I thinking?

Many years ago I thought it'd be so cool if every car used the same basic wheel. A flat, a shredded tire or even a damaged wheel would be so much less of a problem if any wheel in the entire available market would fit. Too much to ask, I guess. And yet we can make complicated once impossible things commonplace. Go figure.


----------



## Mattaus

Not that I don't agree with you, but if we did this everyone would be driving the same thing. Wouldn't that be a bit boring?


----------



## DBCstm

You could drive any style, just that the lug bolt pattern on the wheels would be the same for every vehicle such that any wheel/tire would fit on any car. See? Need to help out a single mom with 2 kids in carseats and a shredded tire? No problem, take her tire/wheel and give her yours. Fix the tire later. Never mind, people want choices, peoples choices make it complicated. 5 spoke, 5 slot, 3 spoke, 5 star, yada yada yada.

Camping and your hot rodded K3 blows a switch? No problem, take one from a convoy, an eagletec whatever, all switches fit all lights. lol Yeah, dreamer, I know. Not practical, as the high end switches aren't needed on the low end lights. But why, oh why, use an 1.5A rated switch in ANYTHING??? No need to answer, I know the answer to that one too. Profit margins. 

So you and tofty are going to resupply the world, right?  Smart switches for mega-lights and all that, right?


----------



## Mattaus

Haha we'll see 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## mvyrmnd

Well, I'm now keen as mustard to see this switch come to life - it'd be the perfect accompaniment to my Hyperion.


----------



## Diablo_331

Have you figured out a ballpark price for one of these bad boys Matt?


----------



## Mattaus

mvyrmnd said:


> Well, I'm now keen as mustard to see this switch come to life - it'd be the perfect accompaniment to my Hyperion.



I don't find using the Hyperion firmware particularly difficult (as you'd expect given the time I've spent with it) but believe me when I say the Smart Switch makes it easier than a Kardashian 



Diablo_331 said:


> Have you figured out a ballpark price for one of these bad boys Matt?



Because of the reasonably large revision that I'm busy undertaking to ensure e-series compatibility the part count has changed slightly and the assembly process is a bit more involved. At a guess, hopefully in the same ballpark as a FETtie.

- Matt


----------



## gunga

Ummm. How much was a fettie?

Edit: Found it, around $50.


----------



## Mattaus

$45 from memory. Mind you that was a "dumb" switch. This switch fits countless more hosts, and has the dual momentary feature, and built in self protection (which the FETtie did not). So if I can come in around that point then I think we're doing pretty well.

Can't make everyone happy though so I'm sure someone will be disappointed with whatever the outcome is 

- Matt


----------



## gunga

When you say dual momentary, are you referring to the combined forward and reverse clicky arrangement?

Very impressive. I'm unsure I'd want to spend that much for just any host, but would definitely consider it for my haiku.
Any time frame?


----------



## Mattaus

Yeah that's what I mean when I say dual momentary. Not sure if there is a better definition?

Time frame....asap. But only when its done properly. Xmas coming up isn't going to help lol.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## Diablo_331

I agree. I have too many compatible hosts but not enough to cash. I do have a handful of lights that I'd like to try this on though.


----------



## Mattaus

Like I said, price will be determined when I know how much some parts will be to make. I should have a good idea in about a week. If it can be made cheaper then cool. At this stage I will hand assemble the whole thing so it will be time consuming and will likely be offered in small batches.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## DBCstm

My 11.88A M8 is waiting with bated breath...


----------



## moshow9

With e-series compatibility, and with some time in between availability, I'm in for a couple.


----------



## DBCstm

y'all are making me wonder, how many amps is an e-series capable of? Why would it need a switch like this? What am I missing?


----------



## climberkid

DBCstm said:


> y'all are making me wonder, how many amps is an e-series capable of? Why would it need a switch like this? What am I missing?



Hasn't milkyspit made some nasty mods with e series lights?


----------



## Mattaus

DBCstm said:


> y'all are making me wonder, how many amps is an e-series capable of? Why would it need a switch like this? What am I missing?



A few things:

1) FETs are very low resistance. Much less than a switch like a McClicky. So theoretically there will be less power lost through the switch than before. This means more light from the same driver. More efficiency as well. I actually think my Hyperion P60s are brighter on this switch too, though I have no numbers to back that up with yet. The FET in this switch has a resistance of 0.0063ohm. For a light engine running at 1.5A, this means only 0.0014W is being wasted in the switch. The resistance actually gets less the higher the current drain, but going on worst case numbers at 10A you're only losing just over half a watt.

2) Maybe I'm alone, but for me the biggest feature of this switch is the dual momentary functionality. Perhaps it needs to be used to see the benefits, or perhaps I enjoy the little things too much.

3) I'm biased, but I like the feel of this switch more than a McClicky.

4) If you can get 4A+ out of a mini-mag (or whatever it was that you showed me) then you have more room to work with in an e-series host that's for sure


----------



## DBCstm

Ok, I'm ignorant, I'll admit it. What exactly IS an e-series host? Are we talking about the smaller SureFire?

And yes, I see your point on the small format benefitting from lower resistance. Usually try to work around that with a spring bypass. I guess the only thing I was looking at is high amperage applications. Probably because of my own bias in my pet project, getting the M8 working reliably with the hot MT-G2. I've actually been thinking I might have to put a driver in it and step the power back pretty far.


----------



## climberkid

I am assuming, Dale, that the e series everyone else is referring to is the smaller surefire, yes. E1/2D/E/B and alike hosts that mimic this size


----------



## mvyrmnd

I use y Hyperion (3A on max) in an e1B with a c head adapter. So I would like the current handling and reduced resistance


----------



## texas cop

Mattaus, you are the evil genius! I've got two lights just waiting for these switches, both over 10 amps. I've been using the VanIsle FETtie, but one switch and three high amp lights just don't mix well. Looking forward to your new project coming to fruit.


----------



## Mattaus

I have updated the original post with 3D renders of the 2 new versions of the Smart Switch. All changed or additional details have been highlight in blue bold. There is no change to the electrical layout of the switch so provided physical tolerances have been properly accounted for I can't foresee any issues with the revisions.

*A very special thanks to tofty for his awesome assistance in helping me completely redesign the physical package to increase compatibility substantially. Not a chance in hell I could have done it without him. *:thumbsup:Actually, tofty pretty much did all the repackaging. I just had to make all my PCBs fit which admittedly was not an easy task because space is really tight in these things. I'm very proud of what we have created. 

Price is still up in the air however some of the parts I was concerned about costing a lot are cheaper than I imagined. I have ordered all parts required to complete a large handful of prototypes over the next couple of weeks so hopefully I'll have something more to show (and put in people's hands) soon  

As always feedback is encouraged.

Thanks,

- Matt


----------



## DBCstm

Looks great! Is it really so easy to operate as it looks? No more hard press? Wow! 

I spent the day putting a laser module into a Brinkmann Legend LX, the switch on that puppy is very difficult to click! Have no clue what they were thinking.

So which switch would fit the Solarforce, the 1st one? And of course, the M8 has a non-standard or non L2 series type switch. Go figure. JB Weld to the rescue! Love the stick, like Water Weld, works easily and works wonders.


----------



## Mattaus

DBCstm said:


> Looks great! Is it really so easy to operate as it looks? No more hard press? Wow!
> 
> I spent the day putting a laser module into a Brinkmann Legend LX, the switch on that puppy is very difficult to click! Have no clue what they were thinking.
> 
> So which switch would fit the Solarforce, the 1st one? And of course, the M8 has a non-standard or non L2 series type switch. Go figure. JB Weld to the rescue! Love the stick, like Water Weld, works easily and works wonders.



yeah locking it on permanently is pretty easy to do. The first switch would fit SolarForce tail caps with an adapter. Just be aware that when installing this in a non-standard tail cap that force you to "get creative" that the large brass cylinder makes good contact with the host.


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

The re-design is looking really nice. With the change in design though, do we lose the option of it replacing just a McClicky switch in a non-Surefire based host? (ie: like a Haiku, Tri-EDC, etc.)


----------



## Mattaus

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> The re-design is looking really nice. With the change in design though, do we lose the option of it replacing just a McClicky switch in a non-Surefire based host? (ie: like a Haiku, Tri-EDC, etc.)



The whole point of the redesign was to make the switch a direct one-to-one replacement for a McClicky 

Anything that takes a McClicky will take a SmartSwitch.

- Matt


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Matt,

That is just excellent news. Thank you! It was hard to tell from the CAD drawings as it looked like it may not.

Happy to be a beta tester for you when you are ready because I'd be looking to own quite a few of these!


----------



## gunga

I'm looking forward to this too. At least 1 for me, maybe more...


----------



## euroken

Definitely in for one of each kind, maybe more as cost permits.


----------



## jaycyu

I need at least 1 for a DD build. Probably 2-3, McClicky size.


----------



## Mattaus

Awesome response. I'll keep answering any questions people have and hopefully within the next few weeks or so I'll have something physical to show.

- Matt


----------



## DBCstm

Wasn't it another Aussie that said "let's get physical" ?

<---ducking.


----------



## Mattaus

Ah 80's Olivia Newton-John...


----------



## DBCstm

Yup, I was about your age back then.... dang! How does it go by so fast? Thought the 2D MagLight was AWESOME when it came out in 87. lol

Edit: Gotta admit, there are still a lot of those original style 2D Mags around, working. Will any of todays lights still be on the market 26 years from now?


----------



## climberkid

DBCstm said:


> Yup, I was about your age back then.... dang! How does it go by so fast? Thought the 2D MagLight was AWESOME when it came out in 87. lol
> 
> Edit: Gotta admit, there are still a lot of those original style 2D Mags around, working. Will any of todays lights still be on the market 26 years from now?



Sure they will! because you'll find an old stash and go sell them in the Market place


----------



## Bimmerboy

Really looking forward to one of these for an E-series incan, and possibly a C-series incan as well. Great work, Matt!


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Matt - also nice to see the updated information about the button cell life. I think in real world situation the equivalent of 4 days of switching would work out to be a really long time. Even if each click is one second in length that works out to over 300,000 clicks - that's probably more than the estimated life span of most clicky switches.


----------



## Mattaus

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> Matt - also nice to see the updated information about the button cell life. I think in real world situation the equivalent of 4 days of switching would work out to be a really long time. Even if each click is one second in length that works out to over 300,000 clicks - that's probably more than the estimated life span of most clicky switches.



Thanks for putting it in more relevant numbers. I might actually update the OP with that information. Certainly better than my haphazard wording. I'm also still running the same coin cell I was 3 weeks ago and have intentionally been using my light every night. Still going strong. I might pull the coin cell out this weekend and take a voltage reading.

- Matt


----------



## AndyF

I would be interested in getting one or two for an E-series.


----------



## Tofty

Just to clear things up i thought i should do a full switchcompatibility post with pictures of each tailcap to help everyone who's unsure which parts are called what.






From left to right: Surefire E-series Z52 twisty/momentary tailcap, Surefire E-series Z57 clicky tailcap, Surefire C-series Z41 twisty/momentary tailcap (de-anodised) and half a Solarforce S1 clicky tailcap.

Basically the Smart Switch Z57 will only fit the Z57 tailcap while the Smart Switch Z52 (which is pretty much exactly the same size as a McClicky switch) will fit in the Z52 tailcap directly as well as any other torch that accepts a McClicky switch and will also fit into both the Z41 and S1 tailcaps with the aid of specific adapter rings. Any tailcap of around C-series size or larger should allow the fitting of a Smart Switch with the aid of a bespoke adapter ring or other creative solution, do remember though that whatever fitting solution may be achieved, easy removal of the switch is essential to allow the changing of the battery. Myself and i'm sure Matt as well would be happy to at least discuss compatibility with other popular tailcaps.

Please be aware that installing the Smart Switch into either a Z52 or Z57 tailcap will mean that the tailcap will screw onto the flashlight body about a millimeter less than it used to. This is exactly the same as would happen when installing a McClicky ( which would have to be modified in the case of fitting one into a Z57)


Z52 and Z57 Tailcaps:


















Both switches with internals dismantled


The Z57 Clicky Switch:










Z41 and S1 Tailcaps:





Note that the Solarforce tailcap, although compatible with Surefire hosts, is noticeably longer than the Surefire tailcap due to it's bulkier original switch assembly.






Unlike the Z41 the S1's threads do not pass all the way to the bottom of the cavity meaning the Oveready McClicky adapter ring cannot be used in Solarforce tailcaps.






Also while a McClicky installed into a Z41 tailcap compresses the rubber boot by as much as the adapter ring is tightened, the S1 tailcap has a shoulder that the switch assembly rests on which means the rubber boot is compressed by a regulated amount and cannot be overly squashed. The Solarforce adapter ring Matt and i have come up with takes this into account by having the Smart Switch screwed into the adapter and be flush along the bottom face, while the adapter is retained using the original Solarforce aluminium retaining ring shown in the picture above.


----------



## flat-ray

Compliment for the technical description! Now the the clicky installing procedure is clear. But is difficult to un screw the Z57 black ring? What kind of material is? Plastic or anodized aluminium? Have you any sistem to unscrew it without damage?


----------



## Mattaus

Awesome post once again tofty  Should be a sticky on it's own somewhere if you ask me!


----------



## Tofty

flat-ray said:


> Compliment for the technical description! Now the the clicky installing procedure is clear. But is difficult to un screw the Z57 black ring? What kind of material is? Plastic or anodized aluminium? Have you any sistem to unscrew it without damage?



Hi Flat-ray, thanks a lot.
Removing the threaded ring from a Z57 tailcap can be a bit difficult, it depends on how much thread lock has been applied. Firstly i would put the switch in a sealable plastic bag, removing as much air from it as possible, then dropping it in boiling water for 5 to 10 minutes. This should help to break any thread locking adhesive used between the ring and tailcap. The ring should then be able to be removed using a pair or very fine needle nose pliers but this carries the risk of slipping and marking surfaces so i like to get a piece of 1mm thick mild steel sheet and dremmel out the shape of a two pronged driver. If this doesn't take your fancy perhaps you could try something similar with an old credit card, it might be stiff enough but if it fails to work and slips at least it won't have damaged the tailcap or ring.
In fact i think i remember that the 47s Quark boot removal tool was of a similar enough size to help the removal of the Z57s ring but it's not perfect and i'm sure most people have never seen one.
The ring is anodised aluminium so excessive tool slippage will start to show bare metal beneath.
Hope that helped.


----------



## DBCstm

Very well done Tofty, love the pics...I'm a visual aid kind of guy and you could say the process all day without getting through to me what one or two of those pictures does. The cut in half switches go all the way, making it very simple to see how it all goes together. Thank you!

Of course, after putting McClicky switches in several of my L2 series Solarforce lights and also the M8, the M8 just has to be different. Depth of mount is different, for which I have compromised with a sanded bare SinkPAD drilled out to accept the pushbutton. At any rate, even if it takes a bit of fiddling, the sheer ease of operation and power capability far outweigh any difficulty installing.

Y'all are really doing this up right, and it's greatly appreciated!


----------



## flat-ray

Tofty, I saved the thread on my comp as technical reference!


----------



## TEEJ

Very interesting. A tail cap UI you can install on almost any host that will be about lossless in power.

One thing I was unsure about was the mode changing...it looked like momentary half presses could both turn it on and then change the modes, but am unclear on how it knows which was intended, or if it does?

When it comes on, does it automatically cycle, or is there a default on/off where you can change modes only if desired?

I have some high powered direct drive lights that this would really be great for, I think.


----------



## dbleznak

Count me in for 3 c-series and 2 e-series. This is the new FETIE ? I have 2 old feties that are held together with glue and ruberbands ( I still run your quad XP-G S2- it's a beast!) can't wait! 
Dan


----------



## Mattaus

dbleznak said:


> Count me in for 3 c-series and 2 e-series. This is the new FETIE ? I have 2 old feties that are held together with glue and ruberbands ( I still run your quad XP-G S2- it's a beast!) can't wait!
> Dan



Lol I think you have me confused with VanIsle.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## Mattaus

TEEJ said:


> Very interesting. A tail cap UI you can install on almost any host that will be about lossless in power.
> 
> One thing I was unsure about was the mode changing...it looked like momentary half presses could both turn it on and then change the modes, but am unclear on how it knows which was intended, or if it does?
> 
> When it comes on, does it automatically cycle, or is there a default on/off where you can change modes only if desired?
> 
> I have some high powered direct drive lights that this would really be great for, I think.



TEEJ, this switch has no modes - just on or off. That being said I am beginning to think a switch with a UI might be something I should pursue!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## dbleznak

Mattaus said:


> Lol I think you have me confused with VanIsle.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk



OMG, I'm so sorry, what a faux pauxe, (face palm)


----------



## Mattaus

dbleznak said:


> OMG, I'm so sorry, what a faux pauxe, (face palm)



Haha all good 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## dbleznak

BTW- the very first run of your triple 219s' just fits into my Ti VME head. It's the only non-malkoff p60 drop I have ever seen do that! Shhhh don't tell anyone.


----------



## Mattaus

dbleznak said:


> BTW- the very first run of your triple 219s' just fits into my Ti VME head. It's the only p60 drop I have ever seen do that! Shhhh don't tell anyone.



Really? I have a VME head here and my latest run doesnt fit, but the external dimensions are the same..might have to double check!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## dbleznak

I can't get it completely closed, but if you get rid of the glass lens, you can screw it 90% and cover the gap with an o-ring. Maybe not the best set-up for heavy use, but it sure looks sweet!! Thanks.


----------



## TEEJ

Mattaus said:


> TEEJ, this switch has no modes - just on or off. That being said I am beginning to think a switch with a UI might be something I should pursue!
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk



OOPS - Your video confused me then, I thought you were changing the out put/levels with the half presses...

...which, now, may soon will be coming to fruition perchance.




There are some other "camera switch" type buttons out there and they use the half presses to change modes. I imagine your switch could perform a similar role, while handling more final power perhaps more reliably.





PS - I just RE watched the video, and, it really looks and sounds like you are changing the brightness....not just on/off and momentary on/off?

What was the 8 taps, and it looking like it was getting brighter and dimmer with taps, and all that then?

:candle:


----------



## Mattaus

TEEJ said:


> OOPS - Your video confused me then, I thought you were changing the out put/levels with the half presses...
> 
> ...which, now, may soon will be coming to fruition perchance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are some other "camera switch" type buttons out there and they use the half presses to change modes. I imagine your switch could perform a similar role, while handling more final power perhaps more reliably.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS - I just RE watched the video, and, it really looks and sounds like you are changing the brightness....not just on/off and momentary on/off?
> 
> What was the 8 taps, and it looking like it was getting brighter and dimmer with taps, and all that then?
> 
> :candle:



The drop-in that I had in the host is one of my Hyperion drop-ins. The 8 taps are to access a programming menu, but this is independent of the switch. The switch is simply on or off.


----------



## TEEJ

Mattaus said:


> The drop-in that I had in the host is one of my Hyperion drop-ins. The 8 taps are to access a programming menu, but this is independent of the switch. The switch is simply on or off.



Its so clear now....


Thanks.




Looking forward to the new UI in the tail cap.


----------



## 880arm

This is great stuff. I'm looking forward trying one of these.

Have you given any consideration to ways of bypassing the electronics and allowing it to operate as a "dumb" switch? Basically some easy way of maintaining at least some capability in the event of a failure in the switch electronics or battery. I can almost envision a set-up where the switch functions normally with the tailcap loosened a very slight bit, but would work like a twisty if fully tightened.

Anything like this would add to the complexity and I know it's not part of the original design but I wondered if you had any future plans/ideas.

Keep up the good work!


----------



## TEEJ

I just love the idea that you can take a dumb HOST and this thing potentially transplants in a UI AND a lossless switch.



Even as is, its a way to optimize AND handle the out output on the crazier direct drive lights, etc. 

If its potted and able to take recoil, etc, it can then also go onto weapon lights, etc.


----------



## Mattaus

I need to stress that when I first started developing this switch it was primarily to be a dual momentary switch. The fact that a high powered FET was incorporated was purely because it could be done at the same time. As a result the switch in it's current guise cannot function without a coin cell simply because of the way the electronics inside operate. It is not possible to use the main battery to power the SmartSwitch hardware, nor is it possible to have it act as a normal switch once the coin cell goes flat. This is because of 2 reasons but the main one being that the physical switch used inside the SmartSwitch will go *pop* very quickly if it's exposed to even low currents we use to drive our flashlights.

As for providing a UI for "dumb" lights this is possible, but not in it's current guise. It would be a totally new design though not radically different to the existing SmartSwitch. One word of warning though - if you are unimpressed by the run time of the SmartSwitch you will be massively disappointed with the run time of a UI switch. The SmartSwitch does not use PWM to activate the internal FET - it simply outputs an analogue low or high signal. It can do this while in a deep sleep mode which allows the switch to run for so long. A "UI Switch" would need PWM, and it can;t do this in deep sleep. If we hypothesized for a second and imagined we could fit a CR2 battery into a "UI Switch" we'd see a typical run time 1-2 months before it needs replacing. But a CR2 cell has a capacity of around 750mA. The largest coin cell I could reasonably fit inside a switch like this maybe 40mA? No need to do the maths to see you;d be replacing the switch battery as often as you'd be replacing the main cell.

There are other considerations to make. The springs are (in my opinion) overly long on these switches and there is nothing stopping us from making use of this space in other ways.

All of the above being said, it is something I am interested in looking into but at this stage have no time to do so. Happy to provide *some* technical assistance to anyone who wants to take on the task though.

- Matt


----------



## TEEJ

Momentary on/off works for me anyway.


----------



## DBCstm

I was going to ask if the drivers modes would still be accessible, but obviously they are as your Hyperion works. I might still end up taking the driver out of my M8 and running the MT-G2 direct drive with this switch. With a behemoth emitter, I don't need low modes, that what my smaller lights are for!

Any estimate on when one of these might be available?


----------



## Mattaus

DBCstm said:


> I was going to ask if the drivers modes would still be accessible, but obviously they are as your Hyperion works. I might still end up taking the driver out of my M8 and running the MT-G2 direct drive with this switch. With a behemoth emitter, I don't need low modes, that what my smaller lights are for!
> 
> Any estimate on when one of these might be available?



The switch with a UI? No ETD at this stage. It's coming up to the end of the year so I'm _trying_ to wind down a little and have a break, but I keep taking on little projects here and there because I can't help myself lol. It's something I will look into only after the original SmartSwitch is out in the wild. I received some parts I need to assemble the new prototype today but am still waiting on my revised PCBs and some parts from Tofty. I'm in no rush though - trying to learn from past mistakes 

- Matt


----------



## BarryH

Just admit it Matt. It is an addiction and you know it! :nana:


----------



## Mattaus

Just a brief update for anyone who remembers this thread was here!

I have new firmware that PWM dims the FET when the coin cell voltage is low, instead of a fast blink. I am yet to test it (stupidly busy but probably just lazy) but the theory is there will be no inadvertent mode switches no matter what the situation of the coin cell is.

There is some bad news however. I was worried I over-engineered version 2. For the most part it's OK, but one of the PCBs in the stack has it's component layout precariously close to bits it should not be touching, so much so that it shorts...constantly. So back to the drawing board for a minor-ish redesign. This is why we prototype  Not ideal, but not the end of the world either.

See you all in 2014 

- Matt


----------



## yoyoman

I haven't forgotten this great project. You're right about why prototypes are important. Good luck with the next prototype. Looking forward to hearing about your progress and I wish you the best in 2014.


----------



## 880arm

Glad to hear the update. I was thinking about this thread just the other day.

Keep up all the great work!


----------



## TEEJ

Could this be adapted to work for twisty caps such as 47's X10 etc...to make them into clickies?


And, could it handle IMR 26650's etc.


----------



## Mattaus

TEEJ said:


> Could this be adapted to work for twisty caps such as 47's X10 etc...to make them into clickies?
> 
> And, could it handle IMR 26650's etc.



Could defintely handle IMR26650 cells though the current limit is 30A (and I'd suggest not trying to push that _too _hard).

As for the 47's twisty...I guessing it depends on space and how the switch would be held in place. I've got a similar idea that is an offshoot of this switch that I am going to look into shortly, but only because it's something that would take me all of 10seconds to design 

- Matt


----------



## carl

Hi Matt, I hope all is well.

Regarding the 6.1mm axial length of the McClicky - I believe this is the portion of the body which is contained by the retainer ring holding the switch in the tailcap - and not the portion which protrudes from the center hole of the adapter. Will your corresponding switch dimension be as short as 6.1mm or shorter?


Anyway, enough about flashlight parts - Wishing you a Happy New Year!


----------



## Mattaus

carl said:


> Hi Matt, I hope all is well.
> 
> Regarding the 6.1mm axial length of the McClicky - I believe this is the portion of the body which is contained by the retainer ring holding the switch in the tailcap - and not the portion which protrudes from the center hole of the adapter. Will your corresponding switch dimension be as short as 6.1mm or shorter?
> 
> Anyway, enough about flashlight parts - Wishing you a Happy New Year!



Thanks Carl 

I think I know why you're asking... 

I am considering refining the original prototype of my switch and offering it along side the revision. 6.1mm is the total height of the PCB stack, but does not include the physical switch on the top PCB. However the physical switch is so small it actually fits inside normal switch boots. With an appropriate adapter (made to fit either SolarForce or SureFire hosts) the total switch axial length (adapter included) could comfortably fall under 7mm. With the right spring, such as options E and F sold here, you're looking at a very compact switch. Close to perfect for say....turning a twisty into a clicky 

- Matt


----------



## texas cop

If you have an extremely short set up I would like to encourage you to add that option. I often use short P60 dropins such as those from Intl-outdoors and reworked switches to fit 18490's into Solarforce L2M's.


----------



## Mattaus

Well some mucking about with CAD last night revealed I may be able to get it under 5mm thick. Won;t know for sure until I get some PCBs made up, but the McClicky version is my priority at the moment. Not that I can't work on both at the same time seen as they are electrical (and functionally) identical.


----------



## Mattaus

So it's been bloody hot here today (41C/105F). That, combined with the lack of air conditioning in my house meant my PC kept shutting itself down despite my best efforts to keep it cool. I spent the 'free time' working on the switch instead. The irony of which meant I spent most of the day using a solder iron and a hot air gun :sweat:

Good news first. This works (despite the crappy looks!):







The problems:

1) Fit and finish. The screw in adapter fits beautifully at the top, but seems a tad bit too tight at the base, which stops the middle PCB from sitting flush. This also prevents the coin cell from being properly connected. The brass adapter that sits between the bottom and middle PCBs is also not dimensionaly correct so this needs to be revised to fit securely.

2) It flickers. I'm yet to nail down why but I think it's my dodgy test setup. Not like a random flicker though - its a very consistent and even flicker of a few Hz per second. Really noticeable. I'll probably build a second test bed and verify it's not a dodgy solder joint or a fried component. Solved - was a minor grounding issue that unfortunately requires a fairly major change.

I've re-worked the PCBs to incorporate the changes needed to fix the above issues (where applicable) as well as make a few improvements.

Peace 

- Matt


----------



## TEEJ

Nice!

Its ~ 8º F here right now. ( ~ -13º C)

So when I feel your pain about using hot air and solder and being overheated, its more like frost bite.


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

LOL - I was thinking of replying decided not to originally. It was -2*F up here in CT last night. Literally a difference of over 100* - that's just crazy.

I am enjoying watching the progress on this switch.


----------



## Mattaus

As a back country snowboarding enthusiast I am oddly equipped for living in very cold conditions, despite my place of residence. Maybe we can swap bags of hot air for buckets of snow


----------



## TEEJ

Mattaus said:


> As a back country snowboarding enthusiast I am oddly equipped for living in very cold conditions, despite my place of residence. Maybe we can swap bags of hot air for buckets of snow



Deal.



Oh, wait, we have politicians here already....


----------



## Mattaus

TEEJ said:


> Deal.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, wait, we have politicians here already....



lol, that actually made me laugh. Well done


----------



## carl

Hi Matt, 

I just got back from a road trip which included motels without WiFi so didn't get to look at any updates on this thread until now. Thanks again for taking the time to respond to my question and doing that CAD stack-up.


----------



## Mattaus

carl said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> I just got back from a road trip which included motels without WiFi so didn't get to look at any updates on this thread until now. Thanks again for taking the time to respond to my question and doing that CAD stack-up.



No worries. You'll be pleased to know my final stack came in at 4.9mm thick


----------



## carl

That very low number along with the Oveready TL50 inner tube length of 66.6 mm makes for some interesting possibilities! An 18650 battery might fit the shorter tube as long as the battery length doesn't exceed 65mm or so - and also if the blob of solder on the switch isn't too big lol!


----------



## psychbeat

texas cop said:


> If you have an extremely short set up I would like to encourage you to add that option. I often use short P60 dropins such as those from Intl-outdoors and reworked switches to fit 18490's into Solarforce L2M's.



I've been doing the same with my L2M - 18490 and zero-Rez shorty + z44 tailcap & NB 219 module. 

It'd be fun to have the same setup but with a switch tho


----------



## Mattaus

The question is however, is 5/6mm short enough? Obviously the battery sits flush against the zero res in the rear, but is there any room to move forward towards the drop in?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## texas cop

Mattaus said:


> The question is however, is 5/6mm short enough? Obviously the battery sits flush against the zero res in the rear, but is there any room to move forward towards the drop in?
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk



It should be plenty short enough. My reworked switches measure 0.32"/8.12mm past the rubber boot. This allows for a dropin with an IMR 18490 to fully screw down in a L2M. I'm just giddy thinking about possible 4-6 amp dropins in 18500 host using an 18650 or an 18350 host using an 18500 battery. Also looking forward to some regular height switches to use in some of my 8-12 amp mutants.


----------



## Mattaus

texas cop said:


> It should be plenty short enough. My reworked switches measure 0.32"/8.12mm past the rubber boot. This allows for a dropin with an IMR 18490 to fully screw down in a L2M. I'm just giddy thinking about possible 4-6 amp dropins in 18500 host using an 18650 or an 18350 host using an 18500 battery. Also looking forward to some regular height switches to use in some of my 8-12 amp mutants.



So, just throwing this out there - is 6.7mm OK then? The reason being that the total height* comes in at *6.7mm* if I use 1.6mm thick PCBs, or *5.5mm* if I use 1mm PCBs.

My preference is to use 1.6mm thick PCBs for durability purposes. 1mm is normally OK, but if it's unnecessarily thin then I'd prefer to stick with 1.6mm.

- Matt

*Total height includes PCB stack and 1mm thick brass battery contact, or compact (and fully compressed) spring.


----------



## texas cop

6.7mm is still 1.4mm shorter than what I'm using. I use a cone shaped spring that collapses to only a couple of coils thick on the switch. Cone shaped springs are going to be a must on both the dropins and the switch. I believe that many dropins so set up will work. If another mm is needed than you can always use a lanyard ring spacer. To be clear, my switch height 0.32"/8.12mm past the rubber boots with the spring actually depressed level with the locking ring. In your post #129 picture the little switch sitting on that green board wouldn't even be considered in the thickness measurements. With everything being a bit tight are you able to keep everything switch wise from being crushed? I dimpled a few cells and cracked two thin PCB's in my search. For me it was worth it, the L2M is my favorite EDC and now with 18490's it runs twice as long.


----------



## Mattaus

texas cop said:


> In your post #129 picture the little switch sitting on that green board wouldn't even be considered in the thickness measurements.



Yep - the actual physical switch is so small it fits _inside_ the rubber boot, hence no reason to include it in measurements that describe how much tube space the entire device will consume.



texas cop said:


> With everything being a bit tight are you able to keep everything switch wise from being crushed? I dimpled a few cells and cracked two thin PCB's in my search.



This is why I'd prefer 1.6mm PCBs. In the scheme of things 1.6mm is nothing, but you have to be trying pretty bloody hard to snap a 1.6x19mm PCB. The brass adapter is also designed to be pretty robust and takes a great deal of the load when installed. The coin cell itself is the deciding factor when it comes to the spacing between the two PCBs, so the battery itself would have to be crushed before any components inside the housing become damaged themselves. Last but not least, there is a plastic spacer inside the switch to prevent the coin cell accidentally shorting on anything inside (basically just holds the coin cell in place) - this is the same height as the coin cell so that would need to be crushed as well.

Long story short, if this switch is damaged due to compression forces it has either been done intentionally or the host is too shot or the battery is too big...or a combination of both.:thumbsup:

- Matt

EDIT: All of the above is in reference to the Ultra-Low-Profile (ULP) switch. The McClicky replacement version is a different kettle of fish physically, but has it's own features to prevent accidents.


----------



## Mattaus

*Re: Z41 Smart SwitchZ41 Smart Switch*

I wouldn't believe this if I wasn't seeing it with my own eyes...

I installed the current test switch in my host the day I first posted about the switch. We're pretty much smack on 2 months now. In that time I've used it fairly regularly with some major work outs thrown in with a few short runs. I've probably gone through 4 18650 cycles in that time. Not massive use, but pretty good 'general' use.

I finally got around to testing the voltage of the coin cell tonight and bugger me if it wasn't reading 3.02V. 

The things as fresh as a daisy!

I truly believe that given my usage habits one coin cell will last me well over a year.

I'm very pleased with how the switch is performing so far. It's actually kind of disconcerting lol...

- Matt


----------



## mvyrmnd

Sounds awesome


----------



## climberkid

I see your problem. You're afraid you won't be able to make enough to satisfy us hungry consumers. 
I would be worried. Very, very worried...


----------



## nfetterly

Subscribed. Interesting read.


----------



## carl

This is a picture of an Oveready TL50 tube and a 65 mm long unprotected panasonic cell sitting inside toward the front of the tube. 

link to Oveready thread:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ttery-fitment-questions&p=4355164#post4355164


----------



## Mattaus

Taken from the thread Carl has linked to above:



carl said:


> This is good news since Mattaus is building a smartswitch which is projected to be flat enough (about 6-7mm) to make a TL50/18650 combo possible while retaining a pushbutton tailswitch rather than a twisty (ZRS).



The question is, with a tail cap fully screwed on to the TLXX tube, what sort of gap is available from the top of the lip of the TLXX tube, to the inside edge of the tail cap? That is the gap my switch needs to be able to fit into. Pretty sure it'll be fine though.

I have revised my design about 15 times since Monday. I'm not even kidding. I keep finding neater or better ways to do things. Nothing dramatic, but enough to justify the changes. It's pretty close to polished so I think I'll order a bunch of test boards and some new parts this week 

- Matt


----------



## carl

Thanks for doing all that work - 15 redesigns!

Let me throw your question out on the OR question thread.


----------



## Mattaus

Random question for anyone following this thread. If you happen to have the below parts:



A SolarForce host (L series or similar)
A SureFire host that takes Z41 tailcaps (C/P etc)
An Oveready brass McClicky adapter.

Could you possibly please check the following:

1) Does the SolarForce tailcap fit on the SureFire host?

2) Does the SureFire tailcap fit on the SolarForce host?

3) Does the McClicky adapter screw into the SolarForce tailcap?

My SureFire is currently off being modified, and I sold my only McClicky adapter a few months back. I should have bought one when I grabbed an OR battery tube recently but I _somehow _forgot all about it. My 3 SolarForce hosts are now sitting on my desk mocking me...

I realize that the machining quality of the SolarForce parts may make some fittings a bit hit and miss. I also see that question 2 has more or less been answered by psychbeat in post #138. What I ultimately want to determine is if I can create *one* version of the ULP switch, or if the differences between the intended tail caps is so great that two separate versions will be required. Obviously it would be advantageous if only one type of brass adapter is needed. It all helps to keep costs down and part compatibility up.

Thanks in advance.

- Matt


----------



## jaycyu

1) Does the SolarForce tailcap fit on the SureFire host?
Yes. My copper 6P tailcap (from JasonH) is now on my L2M.

2) Does the SureFire tailcap fit on the SolarForce host?
Yes. My S8 is now on my copper 6P body (from FiveMega; Surefire clone).

3) Does the McClicky adapter screw into the SolarForce tailcap?
No. A brass McClicky adapter cannot screw down on most of my SolarForce tailcaps as they either change thread type half-way, or just simply end. However, many SolarForce (S8, S11, and L2M) tailcaps have a plastic holder which— after a little drilling— a McClicky (without adapter) can drop in there without screwing down. (The plastic adapter has a hole too small for a McClicky unless drilled. Also, the plastic needs some sanding down, otherwise the user has to dig his finger into the rubber boot.) This is to say, that after 8 minutes of drilling and sanding of a SolarForce switch holder, a McClicky-shape component can be securely installed.


----------



## Mattaus

Thanks jaycyu.

So just to be 100% clear - the brass McClicky adapter ring, just the ring itself with no switch installed, can screw into both the SureFire and SolarForce tailcaps? This makes sense to me as the tailcaps can fit on either host, so the McClicky (which screws into Z41 tailcaps) should also screw into SolarForce tailcaps.

Am I understanding you correctly?


----------



## PCC

Surefire tailcap are threaded most of the way or all of the way. If threaded most of the way then the end is opened up further so that a McClicky brass adapter can thread all the way in and make contact with the end. Solarforce L2 tailcaps have threads that go in most if the way but the unthreaded portion is raised so that the brass adapter would hit the raised portion and never reach the end of the tail cap.


----------



## jaycyu

Mattaus said:


> Thanks jaycyu.
> 
> So just to be 100% clear - the brass McClicky adapter ring, just the ring itself with no switch installed, can screw into both the SureFire and SolarForce tailcaps? This makes sense to me as the tailcaps can fit on either host, so the McClicky (which screws into Z41 tailcaps) should also screw into SolarForce tailcaps.
> 
> Am I understanding you correctly?


In short, 
A brass McClicky adapter can screw all the way in to the end of a Surefire tailcap.
A bare McClicky can be dropped into a SolarForce tailcap. A brass adapter does not fit in there.
(If anyone knows exceptions (like the SolarForce S7), please fill in the missing info.)
(I have a FETtie (the same size as the McClicky brass adapter), which sadly does not fit in my SolarForces.)

Excuse my poor attentiveness, but is the Smart Switch the size of a bare McClicky or the size of the McClicky adapter.


----------



## Mattaus

PCC said:


> Surefire tailcap are threaded most of the way or all of the way. If threaded most of the way then the end is opened up further so that a McClicky brass adapter can thread all the way in and make contact with the end. Solarforce L2 tailcaps have threads that go in most if the way but the unthreaded portion is raised so that the brass adapter would hit the raised portion and never reach the end of the tail cap.



Oooohhhhhh. Thinking about the stock switch in SolarForce lights this makes perfect sense. Sadly this now means that the ULP model will only be truly low profile in Z41 tailcaps. With the proper adapter the ULP will work in solarforce tailcaps, but it will take up more tube space.



jaycyu said:


> Excuse my poor attentiveness, but is the Smart Switch the size of a bare McClicky or the size of the McClicky adapter.



Not your fault. A lot has changed since I started with a few different tangents on the original idea being discussed. 

There are two versions. The main version that is taking longer to get right, is a physical match for the actual McClicky. 

The 'ULP' version is a wider but much flatter version intended for Z41 (or similar) tailcaps only. The advantage of the ULP version is the lack of tube space it takes up. The ULP is getting more attention at this point in time because its simpler to package and make, and is therefore close to being ready for sale...pending final prototype assembly.

At the moment it looks like the ULP Z41 only version will be the first out of the blocks. Depending on demand a Solarforce version of the ULP may be offered but seen as it looses the ability for the only reason for the ULP to exist, it might be a bit pointless. For Solarforce tailcaps the McClicky version plus an adapter ring might be the simplest way forward.

I might update the OP to clear things up a bit.

- Matt


----------



## texas cop

I've got several different Solarforce tail caps, but I'm not too familiar with their nomenclature (s1,s2, ect) Some have the full threads to the bottom, some have a reduced diameter several mm's from the bottom keeping the brass McClicky from fitting and at least one has its threads stop about 8 mm's from the bottom.


----------



## Mattaus

texas cop said:


> I've got several different Solarforce tail caps, but I'm not too familiar with their nomenclature (s1,s2, ect) Some have the full threads to the bottom, some have a reduced diameter several mm's from the bottom keeping the brass McClicky from fitting and at least one has its threads stop about 8 mm's from the bottom.



So it looks as if the Z41 only ULP switch may fit some SolarForce hosts then. Your results may vary though.

I've added an update to post #1 to hopefully clear things up a bit. I'm even loosing track lol.

- Matt


----------



## scottyhazzard

Nice work Matt. Would this work like an electric switch like for a DrJones driver?


----------



## Mattaus

Sort of. Unless I'm mistaken the electric switch you speak of with a DrJones driver is just a momentary contact on an existing driver, or a driver he's modified to act purely as a switch. Regardless, its sort of the same principle. He's controlling the PWM to the driver/AMC chips while I'm turning a FET on/off to allow current to flow to the driver.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## dbleznak

Hi, I've got 2 of your old old FETIE switches, still working, a bit touchy, but with care, they have been Awesome! It's the only way for future switches (watch battery and all) running triples and quads. Now I'm trying to run a 1909 bulb on top of a Megalennium 3x18650 P. I don't have a AW soft start switch. Would your old FETIE work? How about the Z41 Smart Switch in the tail of a M6? Thanks 

Dan


----------



## Mattaus

Dan,

I think you're confusing me with VanIsleDSM lol. You'll be happy to know that my switch, in the 2+ months of testing so far, is anything but twitchy. It's just works really well and the latest revision is a tank compared to the prototype I'm using at the moment 

Regardless, I'll have a look at soft-start and see what can be done. It would have to be a very short soft-start so as not to be noticeable. I'll read up on what other people have done and see if such a feature can be added with only a software change, as a hardware change is very undesirable at the moment.

- Matt


----------



## dbleznak

Matt, you are so right ! Funny. Thanks so much for the reply. Actually, those feties are being held together with glue and rubber bands. Your design looks great. I'm subscribed now to this thread. Thanks. 

Dan


----------



## carl

Regarding the fitment with a brass McClicky adapter and the inner tailcap threads, does anyone know about the Solarforce L2-S12 tailcap? It looks nice and is also possibly the newest of the bunch.


----------



## carl

Hi Matt - 

I hope all is well. 

I had a few questions. For multi-output drop-ins, on which output level will your switch come on (momentary or latch-on) from the completely-off position for:

1) A drop-in with last-mode memory.
2) A drop-in which always starts on hi
3) A drop-in which always starts on low.

Thanks


----------



## Mattaus

carl said:


> For multi-output drop-ins, on which output level will your switch come on (momentary or latch-on) from the completely-off position for:
> 
> 1) A drop-in with last-mode memory.
> 2) A drop-in which always starts on hi
> 3) A drop-in which always starts on low.
> 
> Thanks



1) The last mode used
2) Hi
3) Low

It's just a switch that allows power to flow to/from the main driver. The end result is exactly the same as a conventional switch, the only difference being that this switch allows the user to operate in either forward or reverse momentary if they so wish. So if the light relies on fast taps to switch modes (quick power cycles), you just use this switch to do the same thing. The difference is how you do it. If the light was fully on (clicked in) you'd normally have to fully unclick it and then at least momentary press it on again to change modes (or fully press again to lock it on in the next mode). With the SmartSwitch, if the light is fully on, a half press/tap (momentary off) will do EXACTLY the same thing except faster, easier and with no noise.

That reminds me. *The switch is completely silent in momentary mode, and a full press is an audible - but no where near as loud as a McClicky - click*. This can be seen as a bonus or a problem for some people but there is not much I can do about it. Personally I like it. In the above example, switching modes from fully on to fully on would result in two loud clicks (off then back on). With my switch it won't make a sound. And you'll only have to press once.

I might make and post a video highlighting the above points tonight.

I'm going to order all the PCBs for the ULP and the standard SmartSwitch tonight as I believe they are at 'Gold' status. I will hopefully have working examples of both switches by February. I will make a handful and send them to various CPFers for testing and feedback.

Cheers,

- Matt


----------



## Mattaus

I've got a PM from a CPF member regarding the switch. I can read the contents in my email notification but for some reason the PM is not showing up in my inbox. Just letting you know that I want to respond but can't until I figure out what is going on 

- Matt


----------



## Mattaus

Original post updated to be more clear and concise. All details amended to properly reflect the current state of the project.

All parts required to build and test the 3 versions of the switch have either been ordered or are currently being made.

- Matt


----------



## euroken

Can't wait! Still interested in atleast couple! ULP and Z52 variants.


----------



## th8tredude

I'm super interested in a couple of the ULP variety! Subscribed!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DBCstm

Still watching and waiting, but not electrically savvy enough to be of much help. Sorry. I can run it through it's paces though!


----------



## Mattaus

Sadly this is the part where I wait for bits and pieces to arrive. I havnt been able to even order some key components yet either because the supplier is trying to rip me off for postage. Once that argument is settled I'll be able to grab everything I need.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## eala

Really looking forward to this switch. Thanks for the update in the initial post. 

How many pieces are you planning to build when you get to that phase? Don't recall if you have set a price target for it yet.

I am down for 2 to 3 of them.

eala


----------



## Mattaus

eala said:


> Really looking forward to this switch. Thanks for the update in the initial post.
> 
> How many pieces are you planning to build when you get to that phase? Don't recall if you have set a price target for it yet.
> 
> I am down for 2 to 3 of them.
> 
> eala



I'm honestly not sure. I'll be building them by hand so the amount I build in each run (if it gets past one!) will depend entirely on how much time and patience I have! Cost will also be determined by the same factors. I can assure you it will be fairly priced compared to what else is/was out there.


----------



## DellSuperman

Mattaus said:


> I can assure you it will be fairly priced compared to what else is/was out there.


That's music to my ears.. =)
- JonK


----------



## DBCstm

Anything I can do to help on that postage front? Be glad to....


----------



## Mattaus

DBCstm said:


> Anything I can do to help on that postage front? Be glad to....



Possibly - I'll ask them. What they are trying to do at the moment is pull a 'Digikey" on me, and charge me a flat $30 regardless of postage method selected. The reason I'm calling them out on it is because I have ordered from their website before and paid only $6. For some reason, because my order required quoting this time, the postage is different. I then found out, via a total accident, that they were overcharging me for a part by 20%. Turns out the sales rep was taking a cut.

I'm not a tight *** (if I was I wouldn't be in the flashlight game!) but I refuse to be robbed, and I'm not paying more for postage than half the parts are worth.

I'll see what happens if I change to a US postal address. These items can EASILY be shipped in a small envelope. 

I'll be in touch via email Dale 

- Matt


----------



## Mattaus

So after a few delays everything has finally been ordered 

The only bummer is the 3D printed parts, which are important, will not be shipped until the 12th of Feb. That's an estimate too 

Ah well, as my parents kept telling me when I was growing up, patience is apparently a virtue...

- Matt


----------



## 880arm

Patience may be a virtue but getting what you want, when you want it, is better :thumbsup:


----------



## sadtimes

Im in forr at least one, put me on the list!

subscribed and very eager to get one of these!


----------



## Mattaus

I received the PCBs required for the new prototypes yesterday, and Dale (DBCstm) has kindly helped me out with the parts I was having difficulty in obtaining. I've also received word that the brass components that required machining will also be on their way later this week  

I'll have to hold off on starting assembly of the new prototypes until all parts have arrived as some parts react to re-flow soldering better than others...

- Matt


----------



## dlmorgan999

Woohoo!


----------



## DBCstm

<---dragging up a chair next to dl, have a beer with that popcorn? 

Ok, we're ready, let the games begin!


----------



## sadtimes

Im in serious need of one of these, I really miss my clicky on my duty carry Z2, the zerores is nice, but in a stressfull situation, I need the clicky..


----------



## Mattaus

I got half the parts today. Annoyingly I still don't have a shipping notification from Shapeways so the critical plastic spacers are still a while off.

I have found one issue that needs resolving. There are tiny PCB pins inside the switches that connect electrical signals between boards. I have discovered that it is pretty tricky to get them to solder on straight. Even the slightest lean throws the whole stack out. I'll either have to master this or do a slight rethink on how they are installed. A re-think might be better, but it depends if I can find suitable replacement pins.

I want the switches to function well, but above all else I want them to be bullet proof.

- Matt


----------



## gunga

Great job Matt. Very exciting developments...


----------



## euroken

Can't wait! But I guess I have to


----------



## DBCstm

Can I get mine early if I promise not to shoot at it?


----------



## moshow9

I'll go one further and ask if I can get mine early if I promise to shoot at it?


----------



## Mattaus

Lol gotta get the form factor working first!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## erehwyrevekool

Awesome switch, congrats Matt, good job!


----------



## eala

Really looking forward to other updates and progress on this one. Very exciting! 


eala


----------



## Mattaus

eala said:


> Really looking forward to other updates and progress on this one. Very exciting!
> 
> 
> eala



You and me both! Waiting on parts is killing me. This is what I get for living at the butt end of the world.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## eala

Mattaus said:


> This is what I get for living at the butt end of the world.



You have clearly never been to Hamilton, Ontario.


----------



## erehwyrevekool

Hey Matt count me in for one please (maybe two as cost permits), hope to be on time BTW!

:wave:


----------



## Mattaus

Got _some_ bits yesterday. *S**till* waiting on some PCBs and machined parts


----------



## Tulku

Hey Matt, I really like the forward/reverse clicky feature!

Have you determined whether or not this switch can be configured to function as a soft start for incandescent bulbs?

(I know someone asked about this before but I wanted to know if you've had an opportunity to look into it.)

-Tulku


----------



## 880arm

Mattaus said:


> Got _some_ bits yesterday. *S**till* waiting on some PCBs and machined parts



Hang in there brother


----------



## euroken

One step closer....


----------



## eala

I love Lego projects. Please keep us posted on parts that arrive in baggies.

eala


----------



## Mattaus

Well, as they say sh*t happens:







If you look carefully at the components on the top PCB, there are two resistors on the left that are angled and sit very close together. The red spacers should line up, unfortunately they are on the wrong side. The base of each spacer part is correct, but the tops have been accidentally reversed. The fix is VERY easy, but it will take time to get the replacement parts. I'm still waiting on the brass housings for both switch versions, as well as the PCBs for the Z52 and Z57 switches. I'm starting to get worried about the machined parts because they happen to include a very expensive C2 in the same package 

The switch works at least. I just can't do a test fit until all the parts arrive.

Just trying to keep you all updated so you can see I'm not slacking 

- Matt


----------



## jaycyu

Looking good


----------



## shrike2222

Wow, it's nice shape!!


----------



## euroken

Wow, that looks great! Only a minor hiccup. 

Wish the best for the C2 package...


----------



## DBCstm

Man, I would SO be dremeling out new slots for those resistors!

Don't have a Dremel? Use a drill. Soldering iron, knife, torch, hacksaw, it'd be together in a matter of minutes here in my hands, guaranteed!  Ahemmm, for, uh, testing purposes, you understand!


----------



## Mattaus

There's still one piece I'm waiting on before the switch is a functional prototype. So while modifying the existing spacer will help, it won't help wrap this up any faster 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## texas cop

Hang in there you can do it.


----------



## Mattaus

Any progress is good news right?






I received one of the brass adapters today. The switch fits my C-series test mule. I just need to properly isolate the battery in lieu of the plastic spacers not fitting properly (I'll probably use Dale's suggestion and just dremel out the required indents for now) and then I can test this in a host. 

Parts for the Z52 switch are still coming, but the good news they are actually coming 

- Matt


----------



## yoyoman

Great news and thanks for the update.


----------



## DBCstm

Loooking gooood! Makes me think these are not so far off...

Good thing, I now have lights making in excess of 10A and these bad boys are needed!


----------



## Mattaus

DBCstm said:


> Loooking gooood! Makes me think these are not so far off...
> 
> Good thing, I now have lights making in excess of 10A and these bad boys are needed!



They probably are still a while off purely because of the housing. The circutry is proven and works fine. Getting it to work on a small production scale is another story. I can tolerate building one or two if the process is tedious. But if I am going to build these in multiples of 10, then I want assembly to be a piece of cake.


----------



## eala

Mattaus said:


> I can tolerate building one or two if the process is tedious.



Perfect. I only need one or two


----------



## gunga

Yes. Me too.


----------



## Mattaus

haha you're all so very funny


----------



## carl

eala said:


> Perfect. I only need one or two



LOL!


----------



## carl

Matt, Great work so far!

1) How thick is that brass adapter?
2) What does the "spring side" of that board look like? A simple metal contact button?

Thanks for working on this groundbreaking project!


----------



## Mattaus

The brass adapter is 5.85 mm thick. Spring side looks like this (missing the spring obviously):






The PCB designed can change. I got a bit artistic with the gold dots.

- Matt


----------



## SchwarzeWolke

Yay! Suscribed!
I'm thinking of building me a P60 Solarforce dropin and just stumbled upon these thread.
First: Great work!

Maybe I'm up to buy one when it's finished.

I just tried to read the whole thread but shouldn't it be possible to use just a "one mode" driver and update it with the smart switch? 
(I'm looking at you, Sportac one mode triple Nichia!!! Damn, this idea is just too sweet!!!)


----------



## Mattaus

SchwarzeWolke said:


> I just tried to read the whole thread but shouldn't it be possible to use just a "one mode" driver and update it with the smart switch?
> (I'm looking at you, Sportac one mode triple Nichia!!! Damn, this idea is just too sweet!!!)



It's defintely possible, but I have no plans at this stage to build that functionality into this switch. It can be done with a firmware change - no hardware changes necessary. The problem is that it can't be both - only a standard switch for lights with multi-mode already included, or a multi-mode switch for single mode lights. It can't be both otherwise it just won't work in multi-mode lights. So at this stage it's just a switch. A special switch, but still just an on/off design only.

- Matt


----------



## carl

thanks for the picture - looking good!

What surface (on the switch side) will the round rim/base of the rubber boot sit down, and seal upon, when you tighten the brass ring down? Will it just sit flat on top of the PC board and centered over the switch?


----------



## SchwarzeWolke

Ok, after reading more and more about flashlights and getting a grip how everything works I really want some of these!


----------



## eala

Any news on this project?


----------



## Mattaus

eala said:


> Any news on this project?



Received some boards during the week but they have some fabrication errors. At this stage I'll make do with what I have (they still work) for testing but I need to talk to the people who made the boards to see why they came out wrong. In Eagle and on the Gerber files everything looks fine.

Other than that it's just finding time!


----------



## Bimmerboy

Take your time, Matt! No worries. Keep it fun!


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Bimmerboy said:


> Take your time, Matt! No worries. Keep it fun!



+1 This is a hobby. Enjoy the build! We'll still be here when they are finally ready.

Your latest updates look fantastic. This is going to be a really polished item once you get it production ready. 

Watching the build and seeing the updates is fun.


----------



## Mattaus

I've been mega busy these last couple of months renovating our kitchen (almost finished) as well as our en-suite which is _tiny _but nevertheless a total pain in the a** as I demolished it and have effectively started from scratch again. I even moved all the plumbing which is no easy task seen as it was all encased in a foot of concrete and ran through the footings of the house. Now my girlfriend is talking about extending or selling up and buying a bigger house. Fantastic.

Anyway, I digress.

I had a few minutes tonight to my self so I got stuck into the ULP prototype. Picture of the complete unit below:







A few notes:

1) The 3D printed spacers were effectively sanded to half their original thickness. I may make this a permanent change instead of just correcting the 'flipped' cavities. The reason for this is too complicated to bother typing out, but it makes sense 

2) I originally had no spring internally for the coin cell. I've decided to include one now (its like a really thin plate) because it a gives much more solid feeling when assembled.

3) I'm testing the latest iteration of the firmware which is supposed to dim the output briefly when the coin cell voltage falls too low (instead of fully cutting power as per V1.0). This should avoid unintended mode changes. The only problem here is seen as the coin cell is still sitting at over 3V it might take me a LONG time to get down low enough. I might have to get hold of a bench top power supply to test this feature properly.

4) Assembly was easy enough. Not a 5 minute process though.

5) Installation into the tail was a bit of a pain. This is because the holes that were included to aid screwing the adapter in are straight through holes. The plastic spacers sit on the other side. If I slipped it effectively popped the lid off the switch and I had to take it out, reassembled and start again. I might try and include grooves in the adapter itself rather than the bottom PCB.

6) The switch boots I use have a central knub that needs to be cut down otherwise it presses too hard on the switch. I cut the first boot too short and it resulted in an air gap between the boot and the switch. Not a deal breaker, but not a nice feeling when you rest your thumb on the boot.

7) The switch is currently in a Z44 tail on an L2T host. If installed in a SureFire tailcaps the tail must be screwed on far enough that the ULP Switch adapter makes contact with the lip of the battery tube otherwise no electrical contact will be made. This is because SureFire anodize the internals of their tail caps. This is not an issue on SolarForce tailcaps as they are bare internally.

The prototype is working perfectly at the moment. The Z52/57 prototype is still in the assembly phase. I'm missing one PCB which I forgot about ordering with all the renovating that's been going on. It is on its way to me now though.

- Matt

PS. Because I'm proud of my handiwork...before and after. If my girlfriend gets her way it'll get ripped out or extensively remodeled in less than 12 months time!


----------



## SchwarzeWolke

Are you also planning on doing a version for some bigger and popular lights like all the C8 clones?

Thinking about a C8 host with some driver which can be switched through an electronic one.
Is this even pssible or am I totally mistaken? Thought that the tail clicky acts as a clicky and electronic switch.

Edit: Nice work on your kitchen!


----------



## eala

I agree that using holes in the circuit board to twist in and twist out is not a great idea. Always better to have something in the housing to grip onto.

Nice job on the remodel. I have emailed your GF to suggest moving the window 12 inches to the left. Would distribute light better in the room. 

eala


----------



## 880arm

Nice work! Both on the switch and the kitchen!


----------



## Bimmerboy

eala said:


> Nice job on the remodel. I have emailed your GF to suggest moving the window 12 inches to the left. Would distribute light better in the room.


Hahahaha...

Of course, the more work Matt does increases the chances she'll decide to sell.


----------



## Mattaus

Lol if she gets her way that wall will be gone all together.

This switch could easily be re-worked for various hosts. It's all about fitting the circuit to the light in question. What is making this particular design tricky is that the tail caps they are designed for are not particularly big. It's really cramped in there. If you had a light with a larger tail, I could theoretically re-work the switch very quickly and very easily. For example I have a SureFire M6 here that I am contemplating heavily modifying (internally, not the looks) and one upgrade I've considered is including my switch in the tail. Obviously this will wait until this project (and a few custom orders for some CPF members) is complete.

I'll hopefully have the Z52/57 prototype done within the next fortnight, though I'm nervous to see what mistakes/oversights have been made. The ULP switch threw up a fair few and it is mechanically MUCH simpler than the Z52/57 switch.

- Matt


----------



## DBCstm

The kitchen definitely looks much better now, excellent work!
Nice progress on the switch as well. 
So, what time is Dinner?


----------



## Mattaus

DBCstm said:


> The kitchen definitely looks much better now, excellent work!
> Nice progress on the switch as well.
> So, what time is Dinner?



Thanks Dale 

Dinner time here will be 6pm tonight, so about 3am for you


----------



## DBCstm

I can eat at 3AM, just ask Mary! 

ReAlLy NeEdInG oNe Of ThEsE sWiTcHeS! McClicky's don't fare well at 10.32A in an L2P.


----------



## climberkid

DBCstm said:


> I can eat at 3AM, just ask Mary!
> 
> ReAlLy NeEdInG oNe Of ThEsE sWiTcHeS! McClicky's don't fare well at 10.32A in an L2P.



Oh boy!


----------



## DBCstm

Yeah Alex, I built a hot rod triple for an L2m shorty and the 18350's couldn't handle doing 11A for more than a few seconds.  Had to move it over to an L2P and reduce my battery quality, significantly.


----------



## AndyF

Any update on this interesting project?.


----------



## Mattaus

I'm still working on it but it's very slow going. I have a lot going on away from flashlights plus two other flashlight projects that take precedence (they're not for me).

- Matt


----------



## nfetterly

Great Work !!


----------



## Megatrowned




----------



## Mattaus

Megatrowned said:


>



You guys have _incredible_ timing. I received a PCB revision this morning (like literally 5 minutes ago) and some new components were shipped last week. The good news is that the ULP version works perfectly, I'm just focusing on beefing it up now. It's no good if it's too fragile! 

The bad news is that while the Z52/57 switch works, it's even more fragile and beefing that thing up is a bit trickier. It also doesn't help that I forgot to add a ground ring to the middle (and most important) PCB, so it's got no way of being soldered in place. I've decided to cease development of that version until the ULP version is 100% complete and shipped. *So to be clear, the 52/57 version is coming, I'm just pausing work on it so I can focus on one thing at a time. *

- Matt


----------



## 880arm

Good stuff Matt. It's probably smart of you to focus on only one part of the project at a time. I'm a living example of what it's like to have too many things going on simultaneously and not making effective progress on any of them!

You're pushing the envelope with what you're doing. We're all watching with keen interest!


----------



## Conte

Ok, I hate to ask, but I'm really curious. 

This thing has a fet and a microprocessor . . . 
Is it possible to program this thing to operate as a multimode PWM regulator/softstart for Incan users ?

Electrically, it seems identical from what I can tell. It's just be a change in programming.


----------



## Mattaus

Conte said:


> Ok, I hate to ask, but I'm really curious.
> 
> This thing has a fet and a microprocessor . . .
> Is it possible to program this thing to operate as a multimode PWM regulator/softstart for Incan users ?
> 
> Electrically, it seems identical from what I can tell. It's just be a change in programming.



It can be done with a simple firmware change but it's not something I'm actively pursuing at the moment. I have used an ATMEL ATTINY13A MCU in SOIC8 form, so if you take that out of the housing it would be very easy to reprogram.


----------



## Conte

Yeah I understand. Maybe when this project is all done and production is in motion it would be an option you would look into. 

Many incan drivers have been made, and are currently available that run "Tiny" processors, just none that fit in a surefire tail. 
There is plenty of example code you could tailor to run this device. Might even be able to convince one of the Incan driver programmers to write the program. 

Is the processor accessible by the end user ?


----------



## Mattaus

It's something I will look into, yes. The processor is accessible as it sits on the 'lid' of the assembly, so you could even attach a SOIC clip to it without haven to de-solder it. I like to make most of my things modder friendly* 

- Matt

* total fluke this time though haha


----------



## Conte

That's awesome. 
I finally got around to reading all your posts on this thread. 
I think the only hookup is that running it as a PWN regulator would run down the coin cells. 
It's not uncommon for me to run my lights on mid power most of the time and only turn them to 100% when I need to blast for distance. 

As is, it would still be great for Incans as a high speed low drag switch. (high current low res).

Still haven't seen a price, but if I can afford it, I'm going to pic one up.


----------



## Mattaus

Yeah that is a problem. Currently the MCU switches to a deep sleep mode when you're not actively using the button. This means LONG life. The problem is it can't be in deep sleep mode while running PWM. As a generic soft-start switch though it would work very well.


----------



## Conte

A softstart alone can make a huge difference for an incan bulb as the inrush current of startup is when the bulb is stressed the most. 
I figure a softstart could easily quadruple bulb life. 

Meanwhile, I've played around with running LED drivers off a PWM to see if I could dim it. They didn't care for it so much. 
I'm noticing a lot of drivers are coming with build in low voltage protection. 
This means a softstart might register a false positive and cause the driver to shut down right away. 
Same with multi mode dimming. I'm thinking most good drivers worth their salt won't respond well to that. 
In fact, some drivers are even using similar tech as this switch, which means if you attempt to dim them, that lack of voltage might cause resistance in their circuit causing an overload, much like if you try to run that fet undervolted. 

I'm only bringing this up because I recall mention in this thread of people wanting to know if you could make this multimode to dim a single mode driver. 


Now you realize of course, your biggest challenge might be production demand. I feel you are going to sell a heap of these.


----------



## scottyhazzard

Just let us know when to send the money. Great work as always.


----------



## Mattaus

I've just had the most thoroughly frustrating 24hrs. I received the latest PCB revision during the week and sat down Sunday afternoon to build a switch using this new PCB. The whole point behind this revision was to improve the durability of the pin mounts. Mission accomplished; before, if you knocked them hard enough (which didn't take much) they snapped right off. These ones are mounted so securely you can bend them 90 degress without them coming loose. I don't recommend doing that though! 

However, when I assembled the switch it didn't work. It drove me insane. The low voltage protection wasn't outputting the right voltage (or any voltage at all) and the FET activation pin wasn't budging. I must have tried 6 different tests last night before giving up and going to bed. I got NO sleep thinking about the switch. Plus my GF had a cold and was snoring like a banshee. My alarm went off for work and I was wrecked.

Screw it. I took the day off. Got up at 11am and went straight to work on this switch.

Turns out the firmware works on the ATTINY-13V but NOT the ATTINY-13A. I wasn't paying attention to this (not that I had ever specified it) and kept grabbing new MCUs from my bucket without checking what specific 13 model it was. I got it working about 10 minutes ago and the only difference between working and non-working switches is the A/V moniker. Lesson learnt.

Only thing to do now is to wait for the latest (and hopefully last) revision of the 3D printed spacers and we could very well be ready to roll 

- Matt


----------



## texas cop

No quitting now, we have faith in you.


----------



## 880arm

Mattaus said:


> . . . Screw it. I took the day off. Got up at 11am and went straight to work on this switch . . .



I can relate to that!

I don't understand any of the A/V stuff but I'm glad you got it all figured out!


----------



## gunga

Awesome! I understand what you mean. I've been "sick" like that before.


----------



## Conte

Hah, I just went thru'the same thing with a FET switch I was building.Made the stupidest mistake ever.
After hours of work, found I had my G and S reversed. Had to take it all apart and start over.


----------



## scottyhazzard

Hah, good for you. We all do that stuff. It's the details that get us. You can do it Matt. Looking forward to it.


----------



## Mattaus

Conte said:


> Hah, I just went thru'the same thing with a FET switch I was building.Made the stupidest mistake ever.
> After hours of work, found I had my G and S reversed. Had to take it all apart and start over.



I did that with the very first prototype of this switch. My issue was I had to wait 4 weeks for a new PCB


----------



## Conte

Mattaus said:


> I did that with the very first prototype of this switch. My issue was I had to wait 4 weeks for a new PCB



My very first FET switch prototype short circuited horribly. It was a work of art, so clean and well put together. 
To make the design work I had to run my bulb contacts in reverse polarity, which was fine, until I installed it into the mag. 
Then when the outside metal contacts of the bulb mount, now positively charged touched the aluminum reflector mounted into the negatively charged body, well, let just say the whole thing when into melt down, hah.


----------



## Mattaus

One of my biggest problems when it comes to PCB design is obsession with layout neatness. It increases the time it takes me to complete a project, and sometimes I screw something up as a result of insisting on a trace going a certain way. It results in MANY revisions


----------



## Conte

I hear ya. 
Never done PCB's but have done a lot of point to point and peg board. Building Tube Guitar amps was quite the hobby of mine at one point. 
Layout is critical in high gain circuits to avoid parasitic oscillation. And even when you get that right, the grounding scheme further complicates things. You want to keep it simple, but sometimes that damn ground buss gets more complicated then circuit itself just to get things running right. 
In the end, overworked and sometimes burned out components. 

Got a software program at one point that made it easier to lay things out, but it's more sitting at the desk behind a computer and not as interesting as doing the work. It's saved me money in solder and iron tips tho', I'm sure.


----------



## Mattaus

Conte said:


> Got a software program at one point that made it easier to lay things out, but it's more sitting at the desk behind a computer and not as interesting as doing the work. It's saved me money in solder and iron tips tho', I'm sure.



I use CADSoft Eagle. Free and once you get the hang of it, nice and easy to use.


----------



## Conte

This program is called express PCB. 

One app lets you map out the schematic, the other app lets you map out the PCB, then the app communicate with each other to make sure that the 2 maps add up, then I believe you can send the file out to some PCB maker for fabrication. 

Very simply hobby PCB design program.


----------



## DBCstm

Gotta be close, I can smell it!  

Either it's tremendously successful or horribly dead, if I can smell it from Texas. lol


----------



## Mattaus

DBCstm said:


> Gotta be close, I can smell it!
> 
> Either it's tremendously successful or horribly dead, if I can smell it from Texas. lol



Nup, that must be your BBQ 

Same old story - waiting on parts. Shapeways is INCREDIBLY slow.


----------



## scottyhazzard

Come on Shapeways! Pick up the pace!


----------



## DBCstm

Oh, sorry, roadkill bbq...not for everyone. 

Still in need of this switch though, and am in discussion with a friend on a build that can't be done without your switch. No pressure.


----------



## scottyhazzard

My dream light needs your switch to work. Any progress from Shapeways?


----------



## Mattaus

I got the parts yesterday. I just need to find the time to assemble a new prototype. Hopefully this weekend.


----------



## erehwyrevekool

This is a good news! :thumbsup: Hope to see the new proto soon.


----------



## darkknightlight

This looks like a great switch! I realize that your current project is directed at LEDs; if you have the future desire to program the switch with a softstart single mode for incans, count me in for one.


----------



## DBCstm




----------



## scottyhazzard

How goes the progress, Matt?


----------



## Mattaus

Other than a fitment test I've made none I'm afraid. I've been stupidly busy renovating my house this last month and trying to finish a project that unfortunately holds more importance than the switch. That project should eb finished this weekend which will allow me to focus on the switch again.

Sorry.

- Matt


----------



## carl

Mattaus said:


> ...and trying to finish a project that unfortunately holds more importance than the switch.- Matt



Wow, must be a life and death situation, or a solution for world peace...lol!


----------



## Mattaus

carl said:


> Wow, must be a life and death situation, or a solution for world peace...lol!



Haha...not quite. While people are undoubtedly excited about my switch, no one has paid me anything for them yet. That was a deliberate choice on my part - even if someone prepays and says "no pressure" and genuinely mean it, there is ALWAYS pressure. That's a mistake I made in the past and one I refused to make again.

The other project is just a custom drop-in build for a CPF member. You might think that wouldn't be hard for me given my Hyperion drop-ins, but this was a specific drop-in for a specific host and one offs are a massive pain in the bum (from a machining point of view but only because I don't actually do the machining). I received payment for this job at the start because I could not afford to fund it myself and receive payment on completion. This was BEFORE I demo'd my switch for the first time. So because someone has paid for the work, I feel it takes precedence. It's all done now apart from a final sealing of the PCB with resin to properly encapsulate the driver. So fingers crossed it'll be done and shipped this weekend!

Then it's on to the Smart Switch... and more renovating :sigh:

- Matt


----------



## Mattaus

Update time! Sadly not a good one. Please read on and if anyone can think of anything please let me know because I'm struggling here...

Because of my enforced break from the switch, I must have forgotten something important, or am doing something incredibly stupid. I'm having problems I never had before. I have revised the hardware several times, but electrically the circuit is identical to the very first working version as demoed in the original post of this thread. The code is also the same. 

See this poorly shot video: 



The problems are thus (keeping in mind that this has been in the past a perfectly functioning Smart Switch):



There is a definite delay between any button press, and the FET being turned on and off. There never was before; it was always instantaneous.
 The switch turns on when fully pressed as it should (albeit with that delay).
The momentary off works.
A full press that should turn the switch permanently off doesn't work unless you press and hold for at least 1 second. If you tap it (like you used to be able to do) it pauses for a second then just turns on again.
Momentary on never works at all.

I've sent an email to the person who helped with the code asking if this is an MCU problem (no particular ATTINY13 was ever specified so it could be a 13A/V/10SSU/20SSU/SSU) or if I've somehow got my fuses mixed up or I am inadvertently using an obsolete firmware version.

*I've checked the hardware to death.* I cannot see any shorts or issues with the PCB layout; this ignores the fact that electrically there is no difference between the very first version and this current iteration. The only change is it's neater and much more robust. I've rebuilt this switch using 100% brand new PCBs and parts more times than I can count. It simply cannot be hardware fault but right now I'd happily be proven wrong just to get my bloody switch working again.

Suggestions for tests welcome. I'll post back if I find anything out.

- Matt

EDIT: Video somehow came out in portrait even though it was filmed in landscape. I've changed the setting in Youtube but it might take a few hours to actually change.


----------



## 880arm

Wish I could help. My normal troubleshooting procedures are to change batteries and, if that doesn't work, beat it against the table.

It's got to be frustrating but sometimes it's best to walk away from something like this for a couple of hours and come back to it with an open mind/perspective.


----------



## Mattaus

Yeah I should mention the coin cell is still well over 3V, so its not a voltage problem as far as I can tell. 

I've had a ripper of a night - I was making pasta for dinner and put the sauce in the microwave to heat it up. Of course it exploded and I spent 30mins cleaning it all up followed by an emergency dash to the corner store for more sauce.

It never rains but it pours.

Bed time. Hopefully I'll wake up full of bright ideas!


----------



## DBCstm

If you rubbed my head for luck that would explain it! 

I spent 3 days trying to upgrade the driver in a light with 2 e-switches. Only to find out that one switch has 2 red wires, the other has 2 black wires. Who the hell thought that one up?

No step for a stepper Dude, it'll be all right. If I can get 7.15A in a TK-61, if I can get 2070 lumens in a chopped minimag, You can do this!


----------



## Mattaus

I did some extensive testing today and it looks like the voltage sensing circuit is acting up. In my switch the input to the voltage divider is not fed directly from the coin cell, but rather from the MCU itself. This means that when the switch is not being pressed, the voltage divider is not burning off excess current. Its all about saving power so voltage sensing only takes places when the user is pressing the button. The MCU should be feeding the voltage divider circuit (the result of which is read on another MCU pin) a voltage not much below that of coin cell. For some reason my circuit is only feeding 0.4V (instead of 3V). 

I'm not entirely convinced that this should result in the behavior I am seeing, but it is a problem that needs fixing before I can entertain any other potential issues...not that I can think of any.

I'll do some more testing and later tonight I'll be building another switch from scratch and see if I can find anything.

- Matt


----------



## Bimmerboy

Ahhh... the nature of sauce in the microwave. To be mastered, it must be obeyed.

Longer time, lower power... much lower power. Before each successive zapping, make sure to fully stir from the outside in, and vice versa. This procedure applies to anything that can be stirred from thin soup, to thick beef stew. Way less splattering/chance of explosions, and it all comes out evenly heated with much less _damage_ to the food itself. This will lead to happy nuking. 


Grasping at straws regarding the switch dilemma ... could the MCU have gotten near a strong magnet on the bench, or possibly receive a static shock?


----------



## Mattaus

Seriously. I typed all this stuff out and the server was too busy. Lost everything. And the auto-save saved a blank reply. Thanks. For. That.

Long story short the momentary on is not working because the output for a momentary press is not high enough to turn on the FET properly. The fact that it can output the right voltage to permanently turn on the FET indicates the hardware is OK, and that the problem lies in the firmware. The firmware was tested and definitely works, but there was a second version that uses PWM dimming for the low voltage warning that may not have been tested previously.

The last test I can possibly think to try is a fresh rebuild and the original firmware. I thought I had already done this but to be sure I have wiped my firmware directory on my PC (well in my Drop Box account) and 're-sourced' the original firmware directly from the programmer. 

- Matt


----------



## Mattaus

Fixed!

It seems the firmware is really picky on what MCU I use. Sounds obvious, but it tripped me up big time. I must have grabbed the only unsuitable MCU out of a batch of 40+ sitting in my spares bin. I can only put my other issues down to stupid mistakes (normally from rushing things).



The 3D printed parts are finalized as they now fit flawlessly.
The new PCB interconnect pins and their mount points are in my opinion more than strong enough for the job now too; you'll have to actually be trying to break the thing to bend or dislodge them now.
The ULP adapter and complete PCB+battery+spacer all fit perfectly with each other. The top and bottom PCBs sit pretty much flush.

I'll be making some minor adjustments to the top PCB to aid assembly and improve the positive battery contact. Other than that I'm pretty close to having the ULP ready for extended testing. I'll be looking into the best place to get a small run of ULP adapters done shortly.

- Matt


----------



## 880arm

Congratulations! :twothumbs


----------



## Mattaus

880arm said:


> Congratulations! :twothumbs



I did a jig when it started working lol.


----------



## carl

whatever technical stuff you said in your posts above, well, awesome!


----------



## gunga

Of course it was the firmware. That's sooo obvious.



:naughty:


----------



## climberkid

What great news! Thank goodness. I'm ready!


----------



## eala

Tester available!


----------



## Mattaus

I had a list of people based on who showed interest first and what-not, but as I have a habit of doing, it seems to have gone missing. Really gotta work on that...

Anyway, I have 2 people locked in (DBCstm and 880arm) but am looking for 2 or 3 others who have lots of hosts to try it out in. Another advantage for a would be tester is someone not afraid to get their hands dirty if something requires modification or fixing. Given my location it is not practical to send a switch back to me for evaluation or repair if something goes wrong. These switches will be sent one way, no returns unless absolutely necessary. They'll be free to testers.

At the end of the day what I definitely require is each tester to provide constructive feedback as to the operation of the switch, what hots it does or does not work in, and preferably WHY it does or does not work. This way potential improvements can be identified, or minor adjustments to hosts can be developed in advance. By adjustments I mean spacer rings or something along those lines - not physically modifying the host. Unless people want to do that lol.

Nothing set in stone. I have already got a VERY reasonable quote on having more brass adapters made so it looks like (touch wood) there is nothing stopping me from finally moving on with this project. Still, and again because of where I live, this will take time. Probably 3 to 4 weeks.

Keep in mind no price has been set yet and I'm still not sure what it will come too. It is highly likely that when I am happy to start actually selling these switches, they will be built on a demand basis. They pay, I build and ship. Or something along those lines.

- Matt


----------



## gunga

I can certainly fix stuff as it breaks. Just not sure I have the right host. 


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


----------



## climberkid

gunga said:


> I can certainly fix stuff as it breaks. Just not sure I have the right host.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums



Same. I have quite the ability to repair and adjust, but only have 1 suitable host anymore. Id be happy to take some hosts off Dale's hands, you know, to lighten the work load.

And between firefighting, flying and everything else I do, I can really put it through its paces. 

I constantly regret skipping over the chance to pick up a hyperion when I could have. Very poor planning on my part...


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Matt - although I haven't been too active in the thread I've been following it since the beginning. I recall posting early on that I'd like to help you out as a tester and still would. I have a few lights that this switch could work in and enough equipment to fix most problems.


----------



## Mattaus

Hopefully this is understandable but my preference is for people who meet as much of my criteria as possible. I feel like an a-hole saying that, but it's the most appropriate way to go about getting these switches finalized. I have a number of SolarForce hosts, a SureFire C2, and a TL65 tube to test with. However seen as I am very familiar with the switch, some problems I gloss over or don't even perceive as problems may not be the case for others. To maximize the chances of capturing as many faults as possible the best way to go is to enlist people with as many hosts to test with as possible. Being able to fix the switch if something happens is a secondary concern aimed to help speed any non-compatibility problems up.

For that reason I'll add SOYCD to my list and keep gunga and climberkid in reserve if that's OK? We still have a few weeks before I need addresses so you never know who may, or may not, come to the party.

- Matt


----------



## gunga

That's fine. I'm unsure I have the proper host for testing. I was waiting for the McClicky version. 


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


----------



## Mattaus

gunga said:


> That's fine. I'm unsure I have the proper host for testing. I was waiting for the McClicky version.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


Hopefully that'll be the next cab off the rank [emoji4]


----------



## Conte

Hmm, I'm a tech who could work on them, if only I had more hosts. 

I almost wanted to offer being a remote assembly/service location, but being in Canada, when most of your customers will be in USA is still logistically complicated.


----------



## climberkid

I completely understand. You doing what you think is best for your product should never be seen as you being an a-hole. I was going for a far stretch chance that I could help if there weren't enough people.


----------



## Mattaus

Conte said:


> Hmm, I'm a tech who could work on them, if only I had more hosts.
> 
> I almost wanted to offer being a remote assembly/service location, but being in Canada, when most of your customers will be in USA is still logistically complicated.



I doubt demand will require anything more than my own hand assembly, but if it ever gets too much to handle I will keep you in mind. Shipping from Canada to the US may not be cheaper, but it would/should be faster.

This reminds me - I am actually considering shipping them all to a single US based CPF member to then on-ship them and paying them to do so (plus covering domestic shipping charges obviously). The reason for this is standard airmail for these switches will cost me $16 a pop. That would have to be accounted for into the cost of the switch, or whacked on top of whatever the price comes out to be. If I want to sell these for a reasonable price then I need to do everything I can to keep costs down. I'm not sure what domestic shipping charges for (very) small parcels are in the US, but it would certainly be less than $16?



climberkid said:


> I completely understand. You doing what you think is best for your product should never be seen as you being an a-hole. I was going for a far stretch chance that I could help if there weren't enough people.



You may still end up being a tester. The offers are not exactly pouring in, but it's early days. I would not be surprised if most have given up on this project given all the delays I encountered 

- Matt


----------



## texas cop

If you need testers than I'll offer. I'll also pay shipping and buy a few, your switch is much needed for some of my on hold projects.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

Mattaus said:


> The offers are not exactly pouring in, but it's early days. I would not be surprised if most have given up on this project given all the delays I encountered
> 
> - Matt



Not sure "given up on this project" is the case with many people. It may be that we don't remember exactly what this switch can do. I have not taken the time to look back on this thread. I think you said it is not for incandescents. I was hoping it could be used with direct drive P60 dropins, offering multi modes. If that is the case, I continue to be very interested; been reading this thread through all the remodel times and continue to read of your legacy elsewhere on CPF. 

Best of Luck.


Sent from my iPad using Candlepowerforums


----------



## dlmorgan999

Mattaus said:


> I'm not sure what domestic shipping charges for (very) small parcels are in the US, but it would certainly be less than $16?


Priority Mail for something this small would be under $6.



Mattaus said:


> The offers are not exactly pouring in, but it's early days. I would not be surprised if most have given up on this project given all the delays I encountered
> - Matt


I would also offer to be a tester, but I don't think I have any Z41 lights. I have a number of McClickly lights that are high current draw that I could test. It sounds like you are covered for testers, but if you are coming up short, and need others, I'm happy to help if I can.


----------



## DrafterDan

I'm certainly interested, in the finished product and any testing. I have several P60 and E-series lights, including one I built from scratch. I don't have a huge amount of experience with diagnostics of electronics, but I've built a bunch of LED modules. I've also got several battery styles to test with, variants of 18650's anc CR123's.


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Mattaus said:


> Hopefully this is understandable but my preference is for people who meet as much of my criteria as possible. I feel like an a-hole saying that, but it's the most appropriate way to go about getting these switches finalized. I have a number of SolarForce hosts, a SureFire C2, and a TL65 tube to test with. However seen as I am very familiar with the switch, some problems I gloss over or don't even perceive as problems may not be the case for others. To maximize the chances of capturing as many faults as possible the best way to go is to enlist people with as many hosts to test with as possible. Being able to fix the switch if something happens is a secondary concern aimed to help speed any non-compatibility problems up.
> 
> For that reason I'll add SOYCD to my list and keep gunga and climberkid in reserve if that's OK? We still have a few weeks before I need addresses so you never know who may, or may not, come to the party.
> 
> - Matt



Thank you, Matt. I look forward to doing my best to torture test it for you.


----------



## 880arm

Mattaus said:


> . . . I'm not sure what domestic shipping charges for (very) small parcels are in the US, but it would certainly be less than $16?



Yes, it's absolutely cheaper. If it were possible to package them in such a way they could survive being shipped in a padded envelope, domestic US prices could get down to $2-$3 each. Otherwise, the flat rate boxes could be filled with plenty of padding and would still be a lot cheaper than mailing them individually from Australia.

I will distribute to the US based testers if you still need someone.


----------



## Mattaus

KITROBASKIN said:


> Not sure "given up on this project" is the case with many people. It may be that we don't remember exactly what this switch can do. I have not taken the time to look back on this thread. I think you said it is not for incandescents. I was hoping it could be used with direct drive P60 dropins, offering multi modes. If that is the case, I continue to be very interested; been reading this thread through all the remodel times and continue to read of your legacy elsewhere on CPF.



Soft Start and modes for Direct Drive lights are a definite possibility, but down my to do list. I want to focus on the Z52/57 switch next. One day I'll hopefully get something sorted 



dlmorgan999 said:


> I would also offer to be a tester, but I don't think I have any Z41 lights. I have a number of McClickly lights that are high current draw that I could test. It sounds like you are covered for testers, but if you are coming up short, and need others, I'm happy to help if I can.



I'll keep you in mind when it comes time to test the Z52/57 switch. I'm hoping that everything I've learnt on the Z41 switch will _hopefully _make developing the 52/57 much easier and faster. Considering a lot of the 52/57 switch is already done (I stopped just to reduce workload) it hopefully be a less painful exercise!



DrafterDan said:


> I'm certainly interested, in the finished product and any testing. I have several P60 and E-series lights, including one I built from scratch. I don't have a huge amount of experience with diagnostics of electronics, but I've built a bunch of LED modules. I've also got several battery styles to test with, variants of 18650's anc CR123's.



I followed your build thread . I'll add you to my list of testers for the Z41.



880arm said:


> Yes, it's absolutely cheaper. If it were possible to package them in such a way they could survive being shipped in a padded envelope, domestic US prices could get down to $2-$3 each. Otherwise, the flat rate boxes could be filled with plenty of padding and would still be a lot cheaper than mailing them individually from Australia.
> 
> I will distribute to the US based testers if you still need someone.



The switches are 8.9mm tall (adapter plus the tactile switch on top) so with a decent padded envelope could easily go that way. I may have some new leads to chase up in regards to US distribution, but I'll wait and see how that pans out before I say too much. I also may be getting ahead of myself. Gotta get these tested!

- Matt


----------



## Conte

I wouldn't say people have given up. Just more so probably in waiting. 
Once these are ready to ship, I think you'll have a hard time keeping up with demand until everyone has a couple.

Bare in mind, these things are already very useful to those who run incans as a FET switch is a considerable low resistance upgrade that can instantly result in up to a 10% bump in output to a high current draw bulb. Voltage drop across a switch is more present in the output of an incan than it is in LED. 

We already know for incan, multi mode is a no go with this design because of the power requirements, but softstart is but a programming augmentation away. 
Once this hits the market, some incan junky is going to reprogram it and share the results with you, we'll then know exactly what it's capable of for incan, and all you'll have to do is offer the different firmware as an option which takes like a minute to upload. 

I'm going to want a couple as I do have LED lights I can use this with, and even for my Incan light, I know the FET will be awesome. 

Hell, if I knew how to program, I'd insist on being a tester just so I could spearhead the Incan project.

Maybe you should seek out a tester who likes Incans and knows how to program these things.


----------



## sadtimes

Im still interested in 1 or 5 of these... 

Also I could test this for ya in my Z2 with oveready xml turbo head...


----------



## Mattaus

Conte said:


> I wouldn't say people have given up. Just more so probably in waiting.
> Once these are ready to ship, I think you'll have a hard time keeping up with demand until everyone has a couple.
> 
> Bare in mind, these things are already very useful to those who run incans as a FET switch is a considerable low resistance upgrade that can instantly result in up to a 10% bump in output to a high current draw bulb. Voltage drop across a switch is more present in the output of an incan than it is in LED.
> 
> We already know for incan, multi mode is a no go with this design because of the power requirements, but softstart is but a programming augmentation away.
> Once this hits the market, some incan junky is going to reprogram it and share the results with you, we'll then know exactly what it's capable of for incan, and all you'll have to do is offer the different firmware as an option which takes like a minute to upload.
> 
> I'm going to want a couple as I do have LED lights I can use this with, and even for my Incan light, I know the FET will be awesome.
> 
> Hell, if I knew how to program, I'd insist on being a tester just so I could spearhead the Incan project.
> 
> Maybe you should seek out a tester who likes Incans and knows how to program these things.



A couple of very good points there. I might get a softstart version of the firmware made up sooner rather than later because there does some to be some interest in that feature.


----------



## darkknightlight

I would be all over these switches with a soft start feature for incan lights! I can also test them in my solarforce tail caps as well as old and new solarforce l2, l2m, and l2p bodies. I also have incan p60 drop ins, an FM sunlight module, and one of FM's new 1794 2x18350 lights that I can test with. I'd also be interested in seeing if there was a way that I could make your switch function in convoy m1 and m2 hosts. 

Best of luck with this project! I have definitely not given up on this switch. (Though I haven't been very vocal either)


----------



## eala

I am a useless tester. I only have one potential host plus a whole series of lights that take the McClicky. I am gunning for the McClicky version of this.

Looking forward to results.

eala


----------



## IsaacL

SYOCD and Gunga directed me to this thread. I can't tell you how excited I am to see progress toward an E-series electronic switch!


----------



## Megatrowned

Just have to chime in as well. It's awesome to see this coming to fruition! I haven't said much along the way, but I sure have been following. I can't wait for the McClicky replacement version. This one will be most useful to me, and a electronic switch for this style light is a bit of a unicorn. But for not much longer! :twothumbs


----------



## Mattaus

All bits and bobs have been ordered including more PCBs, brass adapters, switches and FETs. I should have enough for about 6 testers in 3 or 4 weeks time 

- Matt


----------



## Mattaus

A soft-start version of the switch firmware is under development. There is no ETA and no guarantee that it will come to fruition, but if all goes well I'll have something for someone to test not long after I send out the normal ULP switches. I own no incandescent lights myself so will rely 100% on the feedback from whoever tests it.

- Matt


----------



## badtziscool

I definitely still have an interest in this project. I think just seeing this thread with 11 pages, people tend to just skip it when someone posts something new to it. I know I do that. I have some high powered d26 and d36 setups that can benefit from this. And I believe the other big problem with the FETTIE switch was that it was only a reverse clicky. Most people are used to the mcclicky's forward operation, so if your switch can also perform in the same manner then it would be just an obvious upgrade from the mcclicky.


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Matt - not sure where you are going with the SoftStart option but it sounds like, if you could put the soft start technology into the siwtch for a single level that the hardware would be present to do it for multiple levels. A replacement for the AW SoftStart switches maybe. But your switch is powered by a battery - if it had to constantly control PWM for multiple levels it seems like it would drain the battery faster. Maybe there would be a way to switch over to using the flashlights larger batteries as a power supply to constantly control the bulbs luminescence. 

I'll be curious to see where you go with the SoftStart switch.


----------



## psychbeat

I'm still interested too- just quietly following. 
Ill be stoked if the ULP is short enough to use as a replacement for the ZeroRez twisty 
Otherwise I'm into a couple of the McClicky sized ones.


----------



## DBCstm

Standing by. I could probably dump some hosts on Alex but it'd take a truck, lol. Getting a bit carried away lately it would seem. My collection is edging on up towards triple digits and I'm wondering if I'm sane. 63 in hand, 5 en route. Wondering if I'm working on opening my own store or something. 

You're going to have to remind me when the time comes what hosts you'd like to see this in. I'm so forgetful these days it's pathetic. But having fun with FET direct drive drivers running lights between 6 and 16A.  If there's a specific host that this needs testing in that I don't have, be sure to let me know so I can add it to my collection. 

We needed video of that jig...


----------



## climberkid

DBCstm said:


> Standing by. I could probably dump some hosts on Alex but it'd take a truck, lol. Getting a bit carried away lately it would seem. My collection is edging on up towards triple digits and I'm wondering if I'm sane. 63 in hand, 5 en route. Wondering if I'm working on opening my own store or something.
> 
> You're going to have to remind me when the time comes what hosts you'd like to see this in. I'm so forgetful these days it's pathetic. But having fun with FET direct drive drivers running lights between 6 and 16A.  If there's a specific host that this needs testing in that I don't have, be sure to let me know so I can add it to my collection.
> 
> We needed video of that jig...



I've cleared the space


----------



## dlmorgan999

DBCstm said:


> Getting a bit carried away lately it would seem. My collection is edging on up towards triple digits and I'm wondering if I'm sane. 63 in hand, 5 en route. Wondering if I'm working on opening my own store or something.


I have the same problem. I'm currently at 109 lights, and I don't really want to get rid of any of them! :duh2:



DBCstm said:


> You're going to have to remind me when the time comes what hosts you'd like to see this in. I'm so forgetful these days it's pathetic.


I can relate to this as well. I may actually have more applicable hosts than I realize. I suppose I should read the thread again to figure out what I need.


----------



## Mattaus

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> But your switch is powered by a battery - if it had to constantly control PWM for multiple levels it seems like it would drain the battery faster. Maybe there would be a way to switch over to using the flashlights larger batteries as a power supply to constantly control the bulbs luminescence.



Yeah, that's the BIG problem with enabling multi-modes on this switch. The coin cell is tiny and if you start using it to enable modes in DD lights, you'll be swapping the switch battery out as fast as you are the main battery. Whilst it's easy to get the battery out of the switch, it's not that easy to get the switch out of the tail cap. Not a problem when you're changing coin cells once or twice a year, but definitely a problem if you're doing it once or twice a week.

Unfortunately I can't see how you could use the main battery without a significant hardware change to both the switch and any lights that use it. If there was no micro-controller in the switch it may be possible, but the MCU is critical if you want modes. Take it out and modes disappear too! Is there any information on the AW Soft Start switch I can look up? What hosts was it designed for?

- Matt


----------



## Dr.Jones

A first AW driver model was for side switch lights, so it had access to both battery terminals to be powered.

Later models were for the tail cap, without coin cell, see here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...an-Driver-Switch-For-SF-P-C-M-series-Tail-Cap

Featured soft-start, 3 levels (30%-60%-100%) and a strobe. 
Worked only with incans and some LED buck drivers, required 6V min, up to 30V.

I have an idea how it manages it's power, but I haven't seen a photo of the interesting side of that board yet.


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

I recall reading that it used PWM at 100Hz, which was perfect for incan setups. Obvioulsy producing a lot of strobe when used on LED - but it would work with LED as well, it just looked horrible. You may want to contact AW if you want to go down that road - the only reason he's said he stopped making the was because they weren't selling any more.


----------



## Mattaus

Hmm, well I put a tonne of thought into it but I could never think of how to power the FET/MCU with the main battery of the light. The voltage drop from the actual flashlight driver is too great. I'm not sure how AW got around this problem but I think it I know of a way it could possibly be done if no MCU was involved. Then again the features of his switch suggest an MCU is involved...


----------



## Dr.Jones

I'm pretty sure an MCU is used.
With an incan, it only drops all the voltage when on. When off, a small current can easily flow though it to the tailcap. A buffer battery or a buffer cap can store energy for the time when the bulb is on. (BLF thread)
With LEDs, the driver etc. in the head must provide some bypass for a small current when off, so I'm reluctant to assume it works with just any LED drop-in.

It would help to have a good shot of the internals of the AW driver to verify. Does anyone have one and is willing to take it apart for some shots?

Why is 100Hz perfect for incan? Or more precisely, is there a reason why a higher frequency would be worse?


----------



## Mattaus

Dr.Jones said:


> I'm pretty sure an MCU is used.
> With an incan, it only drops all the voltage when on. When off, a small current can easily flow though it to the tailcap. A buffer battery or a buffer cap can store energy for the time when the bulb is on. (BLF thread)
> With LEDs, the driver etc. in the head must provide some bypass for a small current when off, so I'm reluctant to assume it works with just any LED drop-in.



I have PM'd AW but I don't expect any reply. This is why (after a lot of researching and asking around on dedicated electronics forums) I gave up on the idea of a battery-less switch. I simply cannot see how you can properly power the MCU with a driver sitting in between the battery and the MCU. The power, even if appropriate, would be too inconsistent to work. 

DrJones obviously knows how it all works, but for the benefit of others:

The other issue is that the physical switch in the Smart Siwtch is nominally *off*. If you're not pressing the button down, it's an open circuit. The act of pressing the switch through it's two momentary positions is how the MCU knows what you want to do. I know how you can power a MOSFET using the main battery of a light if the switch is able to be locked in the on position (like any old forward and reverse switch), but this arrangement would not work with my smart switch without removing the dual-momentary function. In this case you may as well remove the MCU which means all you end up with is a standard FET switch. Still an attractive option for sure, but not what this switch was intended for.



Dr.Jones said:


> Why is 100Hz perfect for incan? Or more precisely, is there a reason why a higher frequency would be worse?



I think 100Hz is perfect for incans because of the fact the bulbs/filament takes longer to actually turn off and on than an LED does. I can't think of a reason why but there'd be no need to switch at too high a frequency.

- Matt


----------



## Mattaus

I have two new versions of the firmware:

- re-write of the stock firmware to hopefully alleviate my 'picky' MCU issue
- same as above but with soft start included for use with incans only

I have not tested either firmware because I'm sick of tearing my only prototype apart. Every time I do it _something_ breaks and I spend days troubleshooting. I'll test the new firmware on the small batch of parts that are on the way to me now.

I have ordered extra parts for testing to cover off the soft start version, though because I ordered the new parts a week after the last order this will push out the expected test date by a week or so. I want to send out all the switches in one batch to reduce postal fees.

- Matt


----------



## darkknightlight

This is very exciting news, especially for us incan fans!


----------



## IsaacL

Just out of curiosity, is that Morse code around the lip?



Mattaus said:


> *
> 
> Z57 Render*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As always any questions, comments, and suggestions are encouraged.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> - Matt


----------



## Mattaus

IsaacL said:


> Just out of curiosity, is that Morse code around the lip?



Yup - It should say 'Tofty' as he's the guy who did the 3D design


----------



## climberkid

Mattaus said:


> Yup - It should say 'Tofty' as he's the guy who did the 3D design



He's a clever one, he is.


----------



## Mattaus

He could have written naughty words all over it and I wouldn't have bothered checking it lol.


----------



## chesterqw

i own a fettie and seeing this makes me very interested


----------



## IsaacL

I've seen a couple mentions to length of the Z41 ULP switch throughout the thread. Namely <7mm, then 6.7mm, and 8.9mm.

I know you've been adjusting the design and pcb width but is there a current measurement, including spring length?

I'm designing a compact torch and I'm very interesting the potential length savings of your ULP switch compared to the McClicky switch (max 26.3mm I believe).


----------



## Mattaus

IsaacL said:


> I've seen a couple mentions to length of the Z41 ULP switch throughout the thread. Namely <7mm, then 6.7mm, and 8.9mm.
> 
> I know you've been adjusting the design and pcb width but is there a current measurement, including spring length?
> 
> I'm designing a compact torch and I'm very interesting the potential length savings of your ULP switch compared to the McClicky switch (max 26.3mm I believe).



The length of the current prototype's body is basically 6mm, + the length of whatever spring you care to use. The springs I have are 11mm on their own but can compress to less than 4mm. If you used a brass contact instead of a spring the total length could be 8mm.

I suppose I should provide an update. The prototype adapters have taken an age to arrive, but they are in Australia somewhere. I should have them next week. Then I can finally start assembling and testing some switches ready for distribution.

- Matt


----------



## Mattaus

IsaacL said:


> I've seen a couple mentions to length of the Z41 ULP switch throughout the thread. Namely <7mm, then 6.7mm, and 8.9mm.
> 
> I know you've been adjusting the design and pcb width but is there a current measurement, including spring length?
> 
> I'm designing a compact torch and I'm very interesting the potential length savings of your ULP switch compared to the McClicky switch (max 26.3mm I believe).



The length of the switch body is a shade under 6mm, and the spring I use is 11mm but can compress down to 4mm. If a brass nub was used instead (like an OR ZRS) the total length of the switch + contact would be 8mm max.

The switch adapters are finally in Australia so I will hopefully have them sometime next week. Then I can assemble, test and provided there isn't some ****-up (not putting myself past that) I'll get them sent as soon as reasonably possible.

- Matt


----------



## DrafterDan

Excellent, thanks for the update!


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Great update Matt, thanks. Can't wait to try these out. 

I've got a 6Amp P60 XP-G2 triple drop-in I am calling the MOAP60 I made using Donn's heavy copper bodies that is just dying to test this switch out! That's 2Amps to each XP-G2 out of a Sony VTC5 18650 - this puppy kicks out some serious floody lumens. The driver has a 90 second Turbo timer so it doesn't burn itself up.


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## DBCstm

I hear ya Shine On, I have an 18350 EDC Cu called the Cypreus from Sinner that is using 3 XP-L's and pulling 9.21A from an Efest Purple cell. Pretty sure the switch is destined to die. Can't wait for this smart switch to become reality so I can know this light is going to be there, reliably cranking 2960 lumens on demand.


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## Mattaus

DBCstm said:


> I hear ya Shine On, I have an 18350 EDC Cu called the Cypreus from Sinner that is using 3 XP-L's and pulling 9.21A from an Efest Purple cell. Pretty sure the switch is destined to die. Can't wait for this smart switch to become reality so I can know this light is going to be there, reliably cranking 2960 lumens on demand.



Well I have the brass adapters now (got them last Friday) so now I just need to build them. Hopefully not too long


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Great news. Thanks for the update.


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## Mattaus

This could take a while


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

All good things are worth waiting for. 

Those look really cool.


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## 880arm

There is no way I could work on something that small. Hats off to you Matt!


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## Mattaus

Thanks fellas. This is going to be a "few steps a night" sort of job. It took me an hour to properly solder in the base boards to the brass adapters :duh2:

I've also discovered I need a few more FETs and switches. But that'll take no time to grab.


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## IsaacL

Well I'll be darned, they are just as short as you said. :devil: Not that I doubted you, but the clearances in my CAD model looked _really_ short...6mm is an insane improvement over the status quo. You are doing us a solid with these switches and I can't wait to try them.


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## DBCstm

Really looking good there Matt, how many are you lining up to assemble? I don't mind putting mine together myself if it'll help.  

(Imagining the difference between the aspheric and these, wow! What a shocker!) lol


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## Mattaus

DBCstm said:


> Really looking good there Matt, how many are you lining up to assemble? I don't mind putting mine together myself if it'll help.
> 
> (Imagining the difference between the aspheric and these, wow! What a shocker!) lol


I've got 10 all up. Progress is super slow as I'm struggling to find the time :/ I have the day off work tomorrow so hopefully I'll know most of them out barring any problems.


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## Bimmerboy

Hehe... I don't think I'll be offering to put mine together.


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## DrafterDan

The progress looks good!


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## ma tumba

Is it theoretically possible to transform this switch into a true pwm incand regulating switch? Something like adding single level jimmyM's phd functionality.


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## Mattaus

There is an untested version of the firmware that will allow for soft start functionality. Single level only.


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## ma tumba

By regulation, I mean the capability to supply a single predefined voltage of Vout=const regardless of battery voltage Vin as long as Vout<Vin.


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## Mattaus

ma tumba said:


> I mean the capability to supply a single predefined voltage of Vout=const regardless of battery voltage Vin as long as Vout<Vin.



Oh I see now. Sorry but not that cannot be done with the hardware used in this switch. It can only supply the voltage of the battery pack. It doesn't step it up or down - just turns it on or off.


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## ma tumba

Well, but if you can implement softstart then you in fact provide ramping RMS Vout most likely in steps that are fractions of Vin. So to implement regulation you just need to provide RMS Vout in terms of absolute values. Or I am missing something?


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## Dr.Jones

It can't, because this setup is not able to measure the battery voltage; and since it's powered by a small coin cell, it wouldn't be able to actively run with PWM for long. This smart switch goes to deep sleep after soft-start is finished. 

However a setup able to do all that (and have modes) is possible, I have an idea how that can be implemented, but I don't have an incan setup to test, nor that AW driver to take a look inside.


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## Conte

Dr.Jones said:


> It can't, because this setup is not able to measure the battery voltage; and since it's powered by a small coin cell, it wouldn't be able to actively run with PWM for long. This smart switch goes to deep sleep after soft-start is finished.
> 
> However a setup able to do all that (and have modes) is possible, I have an idea how that can be implemented, but I don't have an incan setup to test, nor that AW driver to take a look inside.



I wonder if since the AW unit is long in the past if Mr.AW would be willing to share some schematics at this point in time. 

The AW unit did have a flaw, I measured a voltage Drop. 

I first noticed in in my megalennium rop I used to have.
The output was slightly brighter with the mcclicky than with the AW. 

I believe the AW MCU was somehow being powered off this voltage drop. 

Unfortunately, this is counter productive for a low z switch design, but still very valid for an already bright user incan.

Just hop on ebay or LF and grab yourself a cheap D26 bulb you can pop in an existing host.


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## Dr.Jones

Isn't the AW driver supposed to do RMS voltage regulation? That would imply a voltage drop.


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## Conte

Not that I'm aware of. The voltage you put in is what you get out, minus the slight voltage drop.

I don't know that they were intended to be regulators, just "dumb" PWM dimmers.


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## Mattaus

I've been scared to write this post for a few days now...

The switch is dead in the water. I discovered a few weeks ago that the mechanical switch I am using (MC2A-1F) is end of life. No where (Mouser, Digikey, Farnell etc) have any stock left. All I have are the four switches I had left over from my experimentation. The reason its taken me so long to let you all know is because I have obviously been looking for alternate sources or alternate switches. In typical fashion, it looks as if this switch is pretty special (double momentary, non-latching, with a large pole and a lot of travel in such a small package). Changing to a different switch would require new firmware and different operating behavior. Some features would be lost.

I'm pissed off because the MC2A-1F wasn't even labelled as approaching EOL when I first designed the thing (they normally are).

I don't know where to go from here. If someone is more willing than I to continue this project please PM me. I'll be more than happy to send you all my notes, prototypes and spare components for nothing in return.

- Matt


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## climberkid

Matt, 
I am so sorry that this has happened so late in the game. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for you, but thank you for the work you have put into it. At know that down the road you will get the drive to create yet another something that nobody wants to live without. 
So for now, take care and rest your brain. At look forward to what's next.


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## AndyF

Matt,

You should be proud of your accomplishment regarding your project. You have made a positive step forward with your research and the community thanks you for your effort.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Matt - dang that's really a bummer. I'm sorry to hear this. It seems like the type of switch you are describing is the type used in all digital cameras, but with much less throw. I hope one day you will find a suitable replacement and this project can move forward again.


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## 880arm

Matt,

That's sad to hear after you have already done so much work on your prototypes. However, even though this stops your current development arc, the knowledge and experience isn't lost. You will find a way to apply what you have learned in something else, or maybe a suitable replacement will turn up for the mechanical switch.


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## IsaacL

Matt, 

This must feel like a kick in the balls after all the effort you've poured into the project. I don't know much about the mechanical workings of the MC2A-1F but I'm hopeful that there's something out there that could fill its role.


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## DrafterDan

What an extreme effort to have put forth on this. I know it must feel very frustrating to see it at this stage. 
But know that what you did up to this point has been fascinating to follow. I have pretty serious limitations in the electronics arena, so to see you take this project so far, and from scratch is amazing.


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## calipsoii

Could you use something like the ALPS SKTCABE010? Same double-action non-latching functionality and same electrical specifications (50ma @ 12V). The pole and throw are shorter, but the travel between momentary 1 and momentary 2 positions is only 0.05mm different than the MC2A-1F. Most rubber switch boots have a pillar in the middle, so if you purchased some from FastTech the rubber pillar would make up the difference in pole length compared to your old switch.


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## erehwyrevekool

lovecpf

Matt, hope that your project can reach its goal, you deserve it!


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## IsaacL

I was thinking of the SKTC as well but figured Matt probably exhausted all options. Pillar wouldn't matter in my application...Ti button.... 


SKTC is water/dust resistant BTW


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## scottyhazzard

Hang in there, buddy! Give the SKTC idea a try. Your frustrated as any of us would be. Walk away from it for a week or two then come back to it. Don't lose sight of the fact that you are a G-damn genius! If it can be done, you can do it. Keep it yours. If you can't tolerate it any longer open it up on the Oshpark Projects thread and see what the gang can do. I bet everyone would be happy to pitch in and let you take it back to produce. Maybe cut contributors a discount when they order.


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## eala

Bummed by this news. Was really looking forward to a McClicky - e-replacement.



calipsoii said:


> Could you use something like the ALPS SKTCABE010? Same double-action non-latching functionality and same electrical specifications (50ma @ 12V). The pole and throw are shorter, but the travel between momentary 1 and momentary 2 positions is only 0.05mm different than the MC2A-1F. Most rubber switch boots have a pillar in the middle, so if you purchased some from FastTech the rubber pillar would make up the difference in pole length compared to your old switch.



Minimum order is 23000 units. That is a lot of switches.

eala


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## Mattaus

Thanks for the support guys. I actually didn't find the SKTC switch; I suppose it was one of those things where you looks so hard you accidentally skip the obvious! That being said this would require a PCB design change as the footprint is somewhat different. The packaging is smaller and the throw shorter, but as highlighted already by calipsoii this could be advantageous...

I'll look into it but I won't make any guarantees!

- MAtt


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Matt - like a few others said. Walk away from it for a few weeks. You need a break and when you come back you'll have a fresh outlook on the whole project.


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## DBCstm

Time to get out in the great outdoors and exhaust the body.  Have some great sex and a few brews.  (in the great outdoors or otherwise.  ) lol

Then take another look at it from your fresh new perspective.


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## Shadetree Engineer

I'm just starting to get back into flashlight building, I'd love to use this smart-switch concept. Seems like there ought to be a forum here just for power switches, but that's just me.

I see the MC2A-1F has a replacement: http://www.newark.com/multicomp/mc2dlqr/switch-double-action-top-smd/dp/45X4793 

MC2DLQR has a smaller footprint, solder pads are in a smaller layout, overall height is much lower.

And for a slightly OT reference design - Led Stripe V4 from a german outfit is also on my shopping list


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## Mattaus

Shadetree Engineer said:


> I'm just starting to get back into flashlight building, I'd love to use this smart-switch concept. Seems like there ought to be a forum here just for power switches, but that's just me.
> 
> I see the MC2A-1F has a replacement: http://www.newark.com/multicomp/mc2dlqr/switch-double-action-top-smd/dp/45X4793
> 
> MC2DLQR has a smaller footprint, solder pads are in a smaller layout, overall height is much lower.
> 
> And for a slightly OT reference design - Led Stripe V4 from a german outfit is also on my shopping list


I'll check out the link shortly. Thanks for the heads up!


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## Shadetree Engineer

Mattaus said:


> I'll check out the link shortly. Thanks for the heads up!



Your welcome. And just for fun, you might take a look at this handful: http://www.digikey.com/product-sear...t=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25


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## Bimmerboy

Just came back from my longest absence from CPF since joining to see this bit of bad news. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up, so don't break out the beer yet, but I'm checking through my secret channels.

So far I've been able to determine there are at least 40 of these things left in the world, but have no idea what the cost will be. I should receive a call back in a few hours. I'll send a PM the moment I find out!


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## Bimmerboy

Didn't get a call back today, but will follow up tomorrow.

PM incoming, Matt.


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## Megatrowned

Hello, i'm just curious if anything was ever sorted out regarding the discontinued switch?


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## Mattaus

Megatrowned said:


> Hello, i'm just curious if anything was ever sorted out regarding the discontinued switch?



I passed my project onto a company that many of you may be familiar with. If nothing has happened with it since I can only assume they're either working hard to fix the issues I had left, or have given up on it.

Sorry I cannot give you any more information!


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## Megatrowned

No worries! Thank you for responding. I still feel for you, the way this all ended up. Hopefully this will become a working product one day.


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