# MH-C9000 and Eneloops charge rate



## z_Dry-cell (Feb 26, 2011)

Hi guys, I ordered a Sanyo Eneloop 4 Pack AA NiMH Pre-Charged Rechargable Batteries w/ Charger (SEC-MQN064) from Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IV0REA 

I also bought a pack of AA and AAA pre-charged Eneloops (4 pack). Not long after I decided to purchase the Powerex MH-C9000 charger, in order to prolong the life of the Eneloops and my other rechareable NiMH batteries.



The SEC-MQN064 only charges batteries in pairs and cant tell me if a battery is dead.



Like I said before, I want to prolong the life of the batteries. When I go to charge the batteries, I want to use the longest charge time 200mAh. Based on the capacity of the AA and AAA Eneloops. Is this safe for them to be charged at this rate or should I use 500mAh or 1000mAH?.



Taken from the MH-C9000 pdf manual...

*GENERAL BATTERY EDUCATION*

What is 0.1C, 0.2C, etc?

“C” stands for the battery capacity and the number in front of it is the

fraction of the battery capacity. For example, 0.1C means 0.1 times the

capacity for the battery. For a 2700mAh battery, 0.1C would be 0.1 times

2700mAh which equals 270mA.



Choosing the right charging discharging rate



Charging at a rate below 0.33C and above 1.0C is not recommended.



Charging too slow may prevent the charger from terminating correctly.

Charging too fast may damage the battery.



Typically speaking, slower charging rate will yield better battery

performance but requires longer time. Faster charging rate may not

charge as fully and battery temperature can be higher.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 10, 2011)

About discharge rates for NiMH. I know you should discharge NiMH @ 0.2 x the capacity of the battery. So, discharging the AA's @ 0.2 x 2000mAh=400mAh. But when you calculate the AAA's @ 0.2 x 800mAh=160mAh. I'm pretty sure I should discharge them @ 200mAh since the MH-C9000 doesn't have that setting, correct?.

I haven't yet received my MH-C9000, still eagerly awaiting.


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## s0lar (Mar 10, 2011)

I discharge my AA's at 300-700mAh. My AAA's at 200-500mAh.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 10, 2011)

I'd like to keep it at industry standards and not muck up my batteries. They're brand new, how long does a discharge for AAA take @ 200mAh?. Also, how long does a discharge rate of 400mAh for the AA's take?. Just curious.


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## mrlysle (Mar 10, 2011)

Hi Dry-cell. If you look on Maha's website, there's a FAQ section with some very helpful info in it. You are correct however to discharge your AAA's at 200ma. Maha instructs that when you have a cell that doesn't match any of the pre-set settings, to just "round up" to the next level. So for the 800mah rated AAA's, dis-charge @ 200ma and charge @ 400ma.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 10, 2011)

mrlysle said:


> Hi Dry-cell. If you look on Maha's website, there's a FAQ section with some very helpful info in it.


 
Ah, thanks mrlysle. I hadn't looked in the support section, but I have everything else printed out about the charger. The pdf manual, specs, features and a few threads from CPF. 

Sorry if I'm slow to post, I have to have admin approve them first.


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## mrlysle (Mar 10, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> Ah, thanks mrlysle. I hadn't looked in the support section, but I have everything else printed out about the charger. The pdf manual, specs, features and a few threads from CPF.
> 
> Sorry if I'm slow to post, I have to have admin approve them first.


 
Hey buddy, no prob! I had to go through it all again today myself! Lost my "flashaholic" status in the "crash"! It's all good though. I'm just glad CPF is back up and running. I've already learned some GREAT stuff just this afternoon I'm excited about. This is the best forum in the world! lovecpf


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## Ken2step (Mar 11, 2011)

Amen to the best forum!!!


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## Dry-cell (Mar 11, 2011)

I have my charger now, and have my AA Eneloops on Refresh and Analyze. I removed my Fellows six plug surge protector Model #99109, and plugged it directly to the wall outlet. Will the surge protector cause problems with the MH-C9000?.


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## Russel (Mar 11, 2011)

The only real difference that I would expect is protection from surges, if you plug your charger into the surge protector. Has anything lead you to believe that using a surge protector is bad?


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## Dry-cell (Mar 11, 2011)

I just thought that it may mess up termination, or something to due with the microprocessor.


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## Russel (Mar 11, 2011)

If anything, it should protect the charger from surges. I usually run my MH-C9000 chargers from a solar power system with the voltage fluctuating
anywhere from 12.5V to 14V and have never had that cause a problem. The few times that I've used the external power supply that came with the C9000 charger, I plugged it into a surge protector or a UPS, not because I was worried about the house power, simply because those were the convenient places to plug in for power.


Heck, I just had one C9000 running continuously for the last several days performing break-in cycles on 16 new Eneloop batteries that I just got. I perform a break-in on new batteries, after which I run cells through the break-in cycle once a year. During the time of year that I run a couple dozen cells through break-in I've got two chargers working around the clock. Never once have I had a problem with the C9000 charger “glitching” in any way shape or form. Of course, I could say that about my other chargers as well, a MH-C808M, a BC-900, and a BC-700.


I don't think you have anything to worry about. Plug your charger into the surge protector if it is convenient, or plug it directly into the wall. I wouldn't worry either way. 


I do recommend using a safe surface to charge on, and not leaving the charger unattended while charging. I use a counter top remnant (quartz composite) about 2' by 3' to charge on, with a smoke detector above. Personally, I'm not always in the same room as the charger when it is on, but I'm always in ear shot of the smoke detector. If I have to leave the house, I shut the charger off.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 11, 2011)

Thank's for the piece of mind Russel.

I have the charger in my bedroom and it's sitting on top of a plastic file box on the floor with the chargers stand out to keep it cool. I have it away from the wall. Their's a smoke detector nearby, but I always monitor my chargers anyway. The surge protector I use for my computer. The charger is very quite, I don't hear it at all.


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## mrlysle (Mar 11, 2011)

Dry-cell. If it was me, I'd plug that sweet new charger into a surge protector! It won't affect the operation of the charger one bit, except PROTECT it! Grats on your new charger! They really are great units!


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## Dry-cell (Mar 11, 2011)

Yeah, I'm going to use it next time. I was just being carefull, that's all. Thanks for the help guys.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 12, 2011)

My very first end results with the MH-C9000 and 4 AA Sanyo Eneloops (old).

Refresh and Analyze

Slot 1: 1799 mAh, Min 232, Volt 1.44

Slot 2: 1778 mAh, Min 234, Volt 1.44

Slot 3: 1792 mAh, Min 232, Volt 1.44

Slot 4: 1758 mAh, Min 230, Volt 1.43

Their all below minimum of 1900.  These are dated 2009 and were the second pack I received. I'll use them for my Wii Plus remote. 

The other 4 AA's I got with the cheap Sanyo charger (SEC-MQN064), and are dated 2010.


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## Russel (Mar 12, 2011)

Dry-cell, what charge rate did you use with refresh and analyze of your cells above? I'm assuming you discharged at 400mA after reading your previous posts.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 12, 2011)

Charge: 1000mA Discharge 500mA


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## Russel (Mar 12, 2011)

Those are good rates for Eneloop cells.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 12, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> Their all below minimum of 1900.  These are dated 2009 and were the second pack I received. I'll use them for my Wii Plus remote.


Those results are fine for a refresh/analyze test. You might find they increase slightly with another cycle, but it is normal to see slightly lower numbers when using refresh/analyze on the C9000 since it does not attempt to stuff the maximum charge into the cells.

If you want to get a more accurate indication of the capacity you need to run a break-in cycle. That is designed to get close to the industry standard test cycle that battery capacities are quoted from.

A good rule of thumb is that the number printed on the side of the battery does not mean you will always see that capacity out of the battery.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 12, 2011)

I'm sure their better than the results I would get from the Sanyo charger, right?. 39 to 45 hours to complete seems a bit much. I put them through the Refresh and Analyze because it takes several charge and discharges to reach close to the capacity of the battery.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 12, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> I sure their better than the results I would get from the Sanyo charger, right?. 39 to 45 hours to complete seems a bit much. I put them through the Refresh and Analyze because it takes several charge and discharges to reach close to the capacity of the battery.


Personally, I wouldn't be concerned. Just use the batteries and don't worry about it. The capacity on the battery is a "theoretical" number, not a "this is what you will actually get" number. My Eneloops also give about 1800 mAh on Refresh/Analyze. Once I know this number, it becomes my benchmark for future tests. So in future, if I saw 1700 mAh that used to be 1800 mAh I would know the battery is fading.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 12, 2011)

I keep my batteries in a new clear case for tool bits, fishing lures, and such, you know the ones with the seperators. That way I can keep them in pairs and have them matched together.


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## billcushman (Mar 12, 2011)

I have two MH-C9000s and have charged about 40 AA Eneloops many times over the last several years. I have always set the charge current at 600mA. So far all of the batteries are still in excellent condition.

I recently purchased some Eneloop 1500s and Apple LSD batteries. Here is how they tested in the Break-In Mode.

The capacity (mAh) of the Eneloop 1500 batteries tested as follows:
2081.2088, 2089, 2084, 2082, and 2076 Average = 2083.3 Std. Dev. = 4.4

The capacity (mAh) of the Apple LSD batteries tested as follows:
2065, 2078, 2053, 2077, 2054, and 2077 Average = 2067.3 Std. Dev. = 10.7

Both the Eneloop 1500 and Apple LSD batteries tested at slightly higher capacity than the standard Eneloop AAs. Most of those tested at 1950 to 2000 mAh. All Eneloop batteries I own have met specifications when tested in the Break-In Mode on the MH-C9000.


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## mrlysle (Mar 12, 2011)

Dry-cell. I know it's a long process but I'm sure you'll end up with a higher mah reading after doing a "break-in" cycle on your new C-9000. All of my Eneloops have come out OVER their rated capacity after a break in cycle! The AA's all show over 2000 mah, and my AAA's all show over 800 mah. For instance, the last break in I run on a package of AA's gave me 2088, 2076, 2055, and 2073 mah. BTW, these were "brand new" "never used" Eneloops. I dis-charged them first, then run a "break-in" cycle on them, but I'm confident you would get the same results on cells that had been used several times before running the "break-in" cycle. "Break-in" cycle is the best cycle to use on the C-9000 if you want to see max capacity from your cells, but like others have said, don't worry too much about it yet. Just charge up a couple sets so you have something to use in your lights, and while your enjoying them, go ahead and run a "break-in" cycle on a few. It does take FOREVER so only run it when you've got some charged and useable. You won't hurt them just by charging them, even if they weren't completely dis-charged. That's what is soooo nice about the LSD Eneloops. They're top performers in my book and your new C-9000 will really make them "shine"! (pun intended) :naughty:


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## s0lar (Mar 14, 2011)

One reason the refresh/analyze gives result around 1800mAh istead of 2000mAh could be that you do not fully charge the batteries with the MAHA C-9000.
As I said before, the charge termination is often done at 1.48V instead of at the -dV point. It terminates charging prematuraly. In the end it will give you more cycles but slightly lower performance.
The MAHA C-9000 continues to charge at 100mA for 2 hours after fast-charging is terminated. By removing the cells right after the fast-charge you can then easily see in a test that the cells are not yet fully charged.
Reading the mAh that went in and multiplying by 0.9 will give you an approximation of the capacity inside the cell.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 14, 2011)

I left the batteries in the charger the full time until it said done for each cell (Charge/Rest/Discharge/Rest/Charge). I then wrote down the results for each battery, then removed each one before unplugging the charger. I put them away in the storage case afterwords.

Do you guys use your batteries strait out of the charger, or do you let them rest a certain period of time?.


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## 45/70 (Mar 14, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> Do you guys use your batteries strait out of the charger, or do you let them rest a certain period of time?.



Hi Dry. You can do it either way. Cells fresh off the charger will yield slightly higher capacity, as even LSD cells loose a bit of their capacity soon after removing from the charger.

On the subject of discharging cells at different rates, such as refreshing using a 500mA discharge rate vs. "breaking in" using a 400mAh rate, the slower the discharge rate, the higher the capacity will be. That is to say that the same cell discharged at a 500mA rate, will always result in less capacity than if the same cell were discharged at a 400mA rate. This is because at slower discharge rates, the cell is actually discharged farther than at higher rates, due to the cell voltage remaining higher for longer at low discharge rates, thus effectively allowing a deeper discharge.

Dave


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## Dry-cell (Mar 14, 2011)

Thanks for the info 45/70. I chose a 500mA discharge due to the chart below, I was going to use 400mA to begin with (0.2 x 2000mAh =400mA). I can always do it next time.

http://www.mahaenergy.com/store/mhc9000faq.asp
*What are the recommended charging and discharging current for my battery?* 

The recommended charging current is 0.5C, or 0.5 times the battery capacity. The recommended discharging current is 0.25C, or 0.25C times the battery capacity. Here are some settings for common batteries: 

2700mAh Charge: 1300mA Discharge: 700mA

2650mAh Charge: 1300mA Discharge: 700mA

2500mAh Charge: 1200mA Discharge: 600mA

2300mAh Charge: 1100mA Discharge: 600mA

2200mAh Charge: 1100mA Discharge: 600mA

2100mAh Charge: 1000mA Discharge: 500mA

2000mAh Charge: 1000mA Discharge: 500mA

1000mAh Charge: 500mA Discharge: 200mA

900mAh Charge: 400mA Discharge: 200mA

850mAh Charge: 400mA Discharge: 200mA

800mAh Charge: 400mA Discharge: 200mA

700mAh Charge: 300mA Discharge: 200mA

650mAh Charge: 300mA Discharge: 200mA

600mAh Charge: 300mA Discharge: 200mA


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## Dry-cell (Mar 20, 2011)

I should have asked this before I started another Refresh & Analyze on my other 4 new AA Eneloops. Like the Break-in mode, do you guys recommend a discharge prior to running a Refresh & Analyze?. If so, how long do you rest the batteries after discharging them before running the Refresh & Analyze mode?. This time I'm discharging @ 400mA instead of 500mA.

The batteries are going to be used in my new flashlight that's coming soon, and my digital camera.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 20, 2011)

My second Refresh and Analyze using with my other pack of Eneloops, finished not long ago. Right now I'm letting the charger apply a top-off charge for an 1h 1/2 this time (I need my rest so I'm not leaving it for 2h). It took around 10 hours to complete! (*around 11h 30min with top-off charge*). My results are a bit better, not really worth the extra time it took using a 400mA discharge rate instead of 500mA. For some reason the second battery I put in took the longest to complete (a few minutes more) but got the best result.

Refresh and Analyze 

Slot 1: 1795 mAh, Min 292, Volt 1.45

Slot 2: 1802 mAh, Min 296, Volt 1.46

Slot 3: 1798 mAh, Min 291, Volt 1.46

Slot 4: 1785 mAh, Min 292, Volt 1.45

*Batteries are dated 2010*


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## bbb74 (Mar 21, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> I should have asked this before I started another Refresh & Analyze on my other 4 new AA Eneloops. Like the Break-in mode, do you guys recommend a discharge prior to running a Refresh & Analyze?. If so, how long do you rest the batteries after discharging them before running the Refresh & Analyze mode?. This time I'm discharging @ 400mA instead of 500mA.
> 
> The batteries are going to be used in my new flashlight that's coming soon, and my digital camera.



I'm curious what other people think about this too. I usually do a discharge before a R&A. I only do an R&A every 3 months or so, theoretically I figure this is to reduce crystal formation, so I also figure that by discharging before charging, it will help shrink the crystals before charging them up bigger in the charge part of the R&A cycle. Usually there's not heaps to discharge because I run the batteries down to 10-20% in something useful before starting.

I'm also curious to know how often everybody does a "refresh" R&A cycle on their LSD and non-LSD batteries? Never? Every X months? Every X times used?


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## Russel (Mar 21, 2011)

Refresh and Analyze starts by charging the cells using the same termination methods as the standard charge mode. So, it really doesn't matter if the cells are charged or not when you start refresh and analyze. If they are charged, they should terminate in less time, rest, then discharge, etc. If they are not, they will simply take longer to charge.

Break-in is different in that it is a timed charge at a low rate. Break-in mode requires you to set the cell capacity, then the charger uses a C/10 charge rate timed for 16 hours. (Eneloops at C/10 = 200mA.) Charging at C/10 is not as efficient as charging at higher rates, that is why it is timed for 16 hours rather than 10 or 11. NiMH cell are much more tolerant of overcharging at C/10 so starting a break-in cycle with cells that are already charged shouldn't harm them. But, that just goes against the grain with me. I always discharge cells before using break-in mode...I just feel better about it.

My NiMH cell care method:

I run a break-in on all new cells (discharged first) then run a break-in once a year. As I understand it, break-in help to distribute the electrolyte in the cell.

I charge Eneloops at 1000mA as needed. If a cell hasn't been discharged enough over the last three months in normal use (such as in TV remotes) I cycle it, 400mA discharge, 1000mA charge, and consider it good for the next three months. I happen to use cycle for this but refresh and analyze would work just as well.

If I'm not using in a cell, I discharge it, charge it at 1000mA for about 10 minutes (so it has some charge) and place it in ziplock bag in the refrigerator for storage. When I want to use it, or every three to six months, I take the bag out of the refrigerator and allow it to come up to room temperature over night, and charge it. If it is going back into storage, discharge, charge 10 minutes at 1000mA and back into the ziplock and the refrigerator.

I have had good results with this method. I remember the first NiMH batteries that I got years ago. Charge them up one week later they were dead whether you used them or not.


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## bbb74 (Mar 21, 2011)

Russel, interesting that we both picked 3 months, what made you choose that period? How have your batteries being treated in this way held up, ie do you know how much capacity they have lost over time (years?)? I haven't had mine long enough to really see any difference yet. I'm doing a long term test to see if 3 mths vs 6mths vs 12mth recycling makes any difference in low usage devices.

The long term ones you keep in the fridge, so you take them out and then just do a quick discharge and then a slight recharge - you don't do a full cycle on them?


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## Russel (Mar 21, 2011)

bbb74 said:


> Russel, interesting that we both picked 3 months, what made you choose that period?


 
It seems about right for NiMH chemistry. I have some NiCad batteries for portable tools that I cycle once a month.



bbb74 said:


> How have your batteries being treated in this way held up, ie do you know how much capacity they have lost over time (years?)? I haven't had mine long enough to really see any difference yet. I'm doing a long term test to see if 3 mths vs 6mths vs 12mth recycling makes any difference in low usage devices.


 
My oldest Eneloops are about 2 years old. None of my Eneloop cells measure below 1800mAh.



bbb74 said:


> The long term ones you keep in the fridge, so you take them out and then just do a quick discharge and then a slight recharge - you don't do a full cycle on them?


 
I take them out of the fridge, let them warm overnight. Then charge them completely followed by a discharge and finally and partial charge. Then they go back in the fridge.


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## billcushman (Mar 21, 2011)

If you want the best for your Eneloops, please discharge and then perform Break-In. This will give you accurate capacity information and condition the Eneloops for best performance. Refresh and Analyze is NOT the best procedure for new batteries. Others have recommended this to you, but you seem reluctant to do it. Please abandon Refresh and Analyze and perform Break-In. You will be pleased with the results.


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## Eismagier (Mar 21, 2011)

Refresh & Analyze tops off the cells at the selected rate instead of forcing a timed charge into them, so prior discharging will only cause the initial charge to take longer.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't see the second page. This was meant as a reply to an earlier post.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 21, 2011)

----------------------------
@billcushman

Yes, I know that I would get better results with a Break-in but I'm afraid to leave the charger running for that amount of time.
----------------------------

Anyway, here's some of the info from the label on the back of the charger.

0K0AA

Manufactured by
Maha Energy (Taiwan) Corp
Made in Taiwan

A04-3713419-495


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## Dry-cell (Mar 21, 2011)

It would be nice if you could see the capacity of the batteries rise after it says done and is in trickle charge.


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## billcushman (Mar 21, 2011)

Dry-cell, I have performed Break-In on about 70 AA cells (Eneloops and others) over several years. Don't be afraid to leave the Maha C9000 unattended. If power should be interrupted, the charger will default to 1 A Charge mode, and no harm will be done. Try Break-In, it takes about two days, including performing discharge first. If you want capacity readings on Discharge, set the discharge current at 400 mAh, otherwise the default discharge current of 500 mAh is fine and slightly faster.


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## 45/70 (Mar 21, 2011)

bbb74 said:


> I'm also curious to know how often everybody does a "refresh" R&A cycle on their LSD and non-LSD batteries? Never? Every X months? Every X times used?



I've been using individual rechargeable cylindrical nickel based cells (ie. not "packs") since the early 80's and NiMH cells in particular since they first came to the consumer market. Here is how I maintain the different chemistries.

NiCd. I run either a complete use cycle (ie. down to an OC voltage of ~1.20 Volt) every time I use them, if possible. Every one to two months when they are being used, I run a "break-in" cycle. For storage, I discharge them to 1.20 Volts, or less, and store them at room temp. I do not attempt to "top up" NiCd cells when in storage. This only promotes crystalline growth and the associated voltage depression due to self discharge during storage. When removing from storage, I revitalize the cells with a "break-in" cycle.

Traditional NiMH. I run these through a complete use cycle every month, or so (preferably not each cycle) and do a "break-in" every 3-6 months. If the cells are not frequently used, 3 months, and if they are in pretty much continuous use 6 months. For storage I store them with a small amount of charge, eg. 1.25 Volts or so OC, at room temperature. When checking stored cells, if the voltage drops below ~1.20 Volts, I charge them up to 1.30 Volts, or so and put them back in storage (The voltage usually drops to ~1.25 Volts after a short time). When removing from storage, I run a "break-in" cycle.

LSD NiMH. This chemistry has proven to be pretty much ideal in that it truly requires less diligent maintenance. I generally run these cells through a complete use cycle (ie. down to 1.20 Volt) at least every 2-3 months by default. At approximately 6 month intervals, I run a "break-in", but I haven't panicked if this doesn't happen and am satisfied as long as a "break-in" is performed once per year. For storage, I do the same as for traditional NiMH cells, as above. When removed from storage however, I only run a "break-in" if the cells have been stored for more than six months. Otherwise, I just charge them up normally, but do stick to the "break-in" schedule of 6-12 months.

I don't really use the R&A function very much. What I do find it useful for, is when "good" cells show signs of not holding voltage well under load (voltage depression). A "break-in" would likely be superior, but the R&A function saves time, and if the cells, particularly the LSD variety, have not been "out of the loop" for very long, the R&A seems to work well, and of course is much faster. It is important to note, that even LSD cells will lose their ability to hold voltage under load, when not used for long periods. That has been my experience anyway.

The functions that I use the most with the C9000 are, charge, discharge, break-in and R&A, in that order. I have never used the cycling function, although I have used the similar "refresh" function in the past with my La Crosse BC-900, but don't really use it anymore.

I'll also add that I always perform a "break-in" cycle with new cells, regardless of their specific chemistry, discharging them first at a slow rate. Whether this really matters concerning LSD cells is debatable. My own observations have shown as much as a 150mAh advantage with eneloops, compared to not doing a break-in first. These cells had been "on the shelf" for about two years, and this may have been a factor.

Dave


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## Dry-cell (Mar 21, 2011)

How much better would the results get if I do another R & A on them?.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 21, 2011)

Kinda going off topic a bit but, how do you guys insert and remove your AA and AAA in the MH-9000?. What technique do you use?.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 21, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> Kinda going off topic a bit but, how do you guys insert and remove your AA and AAA in the MH-9000?. What technique do you use?.


I put the negative end in first, push it down and backwards, and then drop in the positive end. After that I rotate the cell a few times to ensure good contact. While rotating the cell I hold it down firmly so it doesn't rise up and out of the slot.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 22, 2011)

That's what I do to insert them too. Do you do the same when you remove them or do you lift the negative end up first?.

Do you clean up scratches on the nipple and bottom contact, or just leave them be?. If you do, then what do you use?.


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## 45/70 (Mar 22, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> ......Do you do the same when you remove them or do you lift the negative end up first?.



Particularly with AAA cells, if you either install the negative end last, or remove it first, you'll end up tearing the shrinkwrap that wraps around the end of the cell. Anymore though, few AAA cells have wrap that actually goes around the end of the cell. Still, it's better (and easier) to always install the negative end first, and remove last.

As for scratches, I've had little problem with them. Provided you press the negative end towards the contact first, when installing, or removing cells, scratches are not really a problem.

Dave


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## billcushman (Mar 22, 2011)

Dry-cell, you are NOT inserting batteries correctly as instructed by the Maha Manual. Go to page two of the manual, look at the right side of the page for the section called Operations, look at the drawings shown under item 3. The drawings clearly show the correct way to insert AAs and AAAs. Remove the batteries by following the reverse of the insertion process. This method works perfectly and prevents damaging contacts.

You have been advised many times by me and others to perform Break-In on new batteries. No matter how many times you repeat Refresh and Analyze, you will NEVER accomplish the desired results. Look to the left of the insertion instructions in the Maha Manual, and you will read that Maha clearly recommends you perform Break-In on new batteries. You should follow the instructions if you want the best for your Eneloops. Your method is NOT correct.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 22, 2011)

Yeah in the manual in the first picture it shows a person inserting the positive end first using a AA battery. In the second picture it show a person inserting a AAA with negative end first. What I do is place the negative end first, push down and drop in the positive end. It clicks into place. By the way, I have the pdf manual printed out and in a binder with all my other info. I always have it open when using the charger.

So when you remove a AA battery you lift the negative end first, right?. With a AAA battery you remove the positive end first?.





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## Mr Happy (Mar 22, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> So when you remove a AA battery you lift the negative end first, right? With a AAA battery you remove the positive end first?


Actually, with AA batteries I lift the positive end first. With AAA batteries this is too fiddly, so I tend to "ping" the negative end out of the slot. I don't have the issue of tearing the wrapper that 45/70 mentioned since any AAA cells of mine that had wrap-around insulation no longer do -- I have carefully snipped it off flush with the end of the cell.


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## 45/70 (Mar 22, 2011)

Regardless of whether your installing/removing AA, or AAA cells, if the wrapper does wrap around the negative end of the cell (as it should), the contact _will rip the wrapper,_ when installing the negative end last, or removing it first, it's a fact. The cell installation and removal procedure outlined in the manual has been discussed numerous times in the C9000 mega threads and the conclusion is, that the manual gives some pretty poor advice.



Mr Happy said:


> ......With AAA batteries this is too fiddly, so I tend to "ping" the negative end out of the slot. I don't have the issue of tearing the wrapper that 45/70 mentioned since any AAA cells of mine that had wrap-around insulation no longer do -- I have carefully snipped it off flush with the end of the cell.



In your case Mr H, it may not be a problem then. I have noticed however, that even cells with a flush shrinkwrap, the wrap can still be damaged by the negative contact. Removing the negative end of the cell first tends to cause the wrap to lift up and exposes the _side_ of the cell to some extent.

I have multiple digital devices that specifically caution _not to use_ cells which do not have a wrapper that wraps around the end of the cell, due to the possibility of the cell(s) shorting against the body of the device. 4 AA digital cameras come to mind. Also, I've had AAA cells installed in 3 cell carriers that shorted out against the light body, when using AAA cells that did not have proper shrinkwrap, that wrapped around the end of the cell. As I said though, AAA cells with proper shrinkwrap are far and few between nowadays. The only ones I know of are La Crosse AAA cells, which are pretty crappy cells, but they do have proper shrinkwrap that extends around the bottom of the cell.

As far as removal of AAA cells from the C9000 being "fiddly", just grab that little sucker, push towards the negative contact, lift the positive end of the cell, and remove. Seems simple enough to me, and I don't have any problem doing it that way.

Dave


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## billcushman (Mar 22, 2011)

On all of my Eneloop AAs, the negative contact projects past the wrapper which wraps around the body. On any battery with a flat bottom on which the wrapper extends around the contact surface, the wrapper will be damaged by sliding it on or off the negative C9000 contact. In this case, do NOT follow the Maha diagram.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 22, 2011)

45/70 said:


> As far as removal of AAA cells from the C9000 being "fiddly", just grab that little sucker, push towards the negative contact, lift the positive end of the cell, and remove. Seems simple enough to me, and I don't have any problem doing it that way.


I know, I was just joking a bit -- small cells, fat fingers, and all...

As far as AAA cells with wrap-around insulation is concerned, I had to cut it flush otherwise I was getting poor or failed electrical contact in the C9000. The negative battery contact on the C9000 does not have the best of designs in my humble opinion, especially on my model.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 23, 2011)

I'm discharging my four AA batteries that I recently did an Refresh and Analyze on, I set the discharge rate to 400mA. I'm going to let them rest for an hour after their finished, then do a Break-in on them. I wanna get the best capacity out of them. I really wish I had a Universal Power Supply though, it would make me less nervous. :sweat:


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## Dry-cell (Mar 23, 2011)

After the discharge is complete for each, I just want to unplug the charger for a hour, instead of taking the batteries out and having to put them back in for when I do the Break-in. When I plug the adapter back in I'll be able to program each slot without it going into charge mode, right?.


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## billcushman (Mar 23, 2011)

Dry-cell: Yes, when you plug the adapter back in you WILL be able to program each slot without the charger going into the charge mode. You must be reasonably fast however. The moment the display cycles and the unit is ready, push the Down button until you select Break-in. Then push Enter and push the Down button until you read 2000 mA (AA Eneloops). Push Enter to complete slot #1. Repeat the process for slots #2, #3, and #4. 

If you make a mistake just unplug the adapter and start over. After finishing setting, check every slot and make sure the charge current is about 200 mA. The slots won't be exactly 200, you may read 195, 197, 202 etc, but all will be very close to 200. If everything looks OK you are set to go. Check the display about 22 hours after starting. If you catch the charger during the rest period after discharge, you can get the capacity of each cell. If you miss this and the charger enters the final charge cycle, you will have to wait to read capacity until after the unit finishes about 16 hours later. 

Don't worry, if you should experience a power interruption no harm will be done. If this should happen, you can easily tell by looking at the display. If the charge current is 1000 mA, you had a power interruption. No harm will be done.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 23, 2011)

Thank's Bill. I'm just going to unplug the adapter after the discharge is complete and remove the batteries. That way I won't need to rush, even though it's easy to program.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 23, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> I really wish I had a Universal Power Supply though, it would make me less nervous.


Just for info though, I think you mean an Uninterruptible Power Supply.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 23, 2011)

The Eneloops have been on Break-in now for about 20-25min, hopefully they run they're course, without issue.

*Edit: I was considering putting a cookie sheet underneath the charger as a safety measure.*


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## Dry-cell (Mar 23, 2011)

Mr Happy said:


> Just for info though, I think you mean an Uninterruptible Power Supply.



Your right, my mistake.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 24, 2011)

It's on the last rest now before the final 16h charge. The results are better, hopefully I see even higher numbers when complete. The second discharge took ruffly 319-327 minutes!.

*Not final Break-in results*!

Slot 1: 1992 mAh

Slot 2: 1987 mAh

Slot 3: 1976 mAh

Slot 4: 1998 mAh


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## Russel (Mar 24, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> I should have asked this before I started another Refresh & Analyze on my other 4 new AA Eneloops. Like the Break-in mode, do you guys recommend a discharge prior to running a Refresh & Analyze?. If so, how long do you rest the batteries after discharging them before running the Refresh & Analyze mode?. [...]


 
There is no need to discharge before running Refresh & Analyze because that mode uses the standard C9000 termination methods. If a cell is charged when you start R&A it will complete the charge quickly, then begin the next stage of the mode. Break-in is the only timed mode on the C9000.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 24, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> It's on the last rest now before the final 16h charge. The results are better, hopefully I see even higher numbers when complete. The second discharge took ruffly 319-327 minutes!.
> 
> *Not final Break-in results*!


Those *are* the final results!

There is only one discharge in a break-in cycle, in the middle, between the two 16 hour charges, and the results from the discharge are the capacity results reported.

However, if you run a manual discharge at 400 mA after the break-in finishes you will be able to obtain another capacity reading.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 24, 2011)

I ran a discharge @400mA and rested them for 1h 15min prior to the break-in. I thought I might get better results after the second charge (I guess not). Those are good numbers though, much better than the R&A ones.


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## billcushman (Mar 24, 2011)

Dry-cell, as Mr. Happy stated, those ARE your final numbers. They are typical of results I have observed on virtually all 1000 cycle rated Eneloop AAs I have tested. The new 1500 cycle Eneloop AAs I have tested slightly higher, about 2085 mAh. The 1500 cycle Eneloop AAs can be identified by information on the package, colored jackets, or a crown symbol near the plus mark on the white jacket. The 1000 cycle Eneloop AAs I have (more than 50) have all met spec and continue to give excellent service after several years. The new 1500 cycle Eneloops AAs appear to be even better.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 24, 2011)

Was hoping that I might see some go over the rated capacity like others have reported. 

I'm aware of the 1500 cycle Eneloops, they're a little harder to get than the old ones and cost more. Mostly seeing them in bulk, 16+ batteries.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 25, 2011)

The break-in is finished, it took around 39h 35min to complete. I now have my other four Eneloop batteries on discharge and wil run a break-in later on.


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## billcushman (Mar 25, 2011)

I have so many Eneloop AAs, I quit recording results on all of them, but I ran all through the Break-In cycle before use. You will probably find the average mAh capacity between 1960 and 2000. They are typically much better than the 1900 minimum spec. If you buy more Eneloops try to get the new 1500 cycle batteries. My experience shows that they test about 100 mAh higher. Do NOT run them through Refresh and Analyze, but discharge and run Break-In on all before use if possible.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 25, 2011)

I'm definately not going to run break-in every time I need to charge them. In the manual it says "Recommended once every 30 cycles for NiMH batteries". If I notice that the capacity start's to drop below 1900 I'll do a disharge and break-in.

I only have 8 AA and 8 AAA batteries, so it's easy to keep track of them, I hardly use the AAA batteries. I may get one more pack of AA Eneloops. I only need them for a Wii remote, Nyko Wing Wireless Gamepad (Wii), digital camera and two flashlights.


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## billcushman (Mar 25, 2011)

Dry-cell, I have only done Break-in on my Eneloops ONCE, at the time they were purchased. Since then, all AAs have been charged at 600mA, and AAAs at 200mA. Since all have remained in excellent condition, no other Maha cycles have been used. I typically charge them when they probably have 20% to 30% charge remaining. The charge rates stated above are lower than Maha typically recommends, but are within the range of Sanyo parameters for Eneloop Chargers. These settings have produced good results over several years.


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## Eismagier (Mar 25, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> I'm definately not going to run break-in every time I need to charge them.


 That would be ridiculous. You'd be wasting time and putting extra cycles on the cells for virtually no reason.

Break-in seems to be more important with legacy NiMH cells. LSD cells in general and Eneloops in particular only show a marginal improvement.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 25, 2011)

Tell me something I don't know.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 25, 2011)

There's no harm being done if you leave the charger on after done is displayed, after a discharge right?. I left the charger on for about an hour extra because I was busy.


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## Russel (Mar 25, 2011)

Eismagier said:


> [...]Break-in seems to be more important with legacy NiMH cells. LSD cells in general and Eneloops in particular only show a marginal improvement.


 
As I understand it, break-in mode helps redistribute electrolyte throughout the battery. That is why I always run a break-in cycle on new cells.



Dry-cell said:


> There's no harm being done if you leave the charger on after done is displayed, after a discharge right?. I left the charger on for about an hour extra because I was busy.


 
That is correct.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 25, 2011)

Well guys, thanks for taking me through the steps and answering any questions. I'm very happy with the results I got from the break-in. At least by doing the R&A I learned that it just doesn't cut it when it comes to battery performance. I've been keeping all my results and notes in a spreadsheet for future reference. I'll post my break-in results on the other 4 AA Eneloops when I get them.

lovecpf


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## Dry-cell (Mar 26, 2011)

It's on rest now after the 16h charge, here's the numbers I'm getting (pretty strange).

Slot 1: 2903 mAh, Volt 1.46

Slot 2: 2892 mAh, Volt 1.45

Slot 3: 2897 mAh, Volt 1.45

Slot 4: 2896 mAh, Volt 1.46


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## Eismagier (Mar 26, 2011)

Break-in forces a much higher charge into the cells than a normal charge would. What counts is the capacity after the discharge stage.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 26, 2011)

Yeah your very right, I jumped the gun, my mistake.


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## billcushman (Mar 26, 2011)

Dry-cell, you did not jump the gun. When the Break-In finishes, the same readings you observed will be displayed. They are lower than I have typically observed on AA Eneloop 1000 cycle batteries. As I stated before, I have tested about 50 Eneloop AAs, none were below 1900 mAh, and most are between 1950 and 2000. You might discharge after Break-in using 400 mA discharge current for a second set of readings. I wouldn't worry much however. After doing the 400 mA discharge and capacity observations, I would charge them at 600 mA and use the batteries normally.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 26, 2011)

No no, I wrote down the reading after the first charge, I forgot (at the time) that the correct reading's are showed after the discharge when in rest. They also show at the end obviously. 

When I charge 2000mAh batteries I use a 1000mA charge.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 26, 2011)

I was away when it was in rest mode after the discharge, so I'll have to wait until the end to get the results now.


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## billcushman (Mar 26, 2011)

A charge rate of 1000 mA is probably fine, but no Sanyo Eneloop charger specs I have seen used more than 600 mA. This is the reason I have always used 600 mA rather than the 1000 mA Maha recommendation. See how your battery continue to perform after a couple of years. I suspect you will be fine.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 26, 2011)

billcushman said:


> A charge rate of 1000 mA is probably fine, but no Sanyo Eneloop charger specs I have seen used more than 600 mA. This is the reason I have always used 600 mA rather than the 1000 mA Maha recommendation. See how your battery continue to perform after a couple of years. I suspect you will be fine.


I have never seen a problem with charging Eneloops at 1000 mA on the C9000. It tends to terminate very conservatively so the batteries barely get warm. Also if you charge at 400 mA you have to wait nearly four hours for the charge to finish.


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## Russel (Mar 26, 2011)

billcushman said:


> A charge rate of 1000 mA is probably fine, but no Sanyo Eneloop charger specs I have seen used more than 600 mA. This is the reason I have always used 600 mA rather than the 1000 mA Maha recommendation. See how your battery continue to perform after a couple of years. I suspect you will be fine.


 
The Sanyo HR-3UTG Eneloop AA specifications sheet shows 2000mA for fast charging. I don't think that the lower charge current that the Sanyo chargers use is to prolong cell life. I think it has more to do with cost and profit.


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## 45/70 (Mar 27, 2011)

Russel brings up a good point. I also think the myth that slow charging of all nickel based cells is preferred, is a leftover from the NiCd days when most chargers were "overnight" chargers.  Battery University actually suggests that a "fast charge" is preferred, also.



> Constant current, trickle charge at 0.05C, *fast charge preferred*.
> Slow charge = 14h
> Rapid charge = 3h
> Fast charge = 1h


I compromise and charge all my cylindrical cells (including Li-Ion) at a 0.5C rate. If you should run into a situation where cells are getting hot at faster rates, it's because the cells are aged and nearing EOL. In this case a slower charge rate is OK, but the cells are pretty much spent anyway.

Dave


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## Mikl1984 (Mar 27, 2011)

billcushman said:


> A charge rate of 1000 mA is probably fine, but no Sanyo Eneloop charger specs I have seen used more than 600 mA.


You are wrong 
For example MQR06 with 1680 mA  http://www.eneloop.info/products/chargers.html





Good comparison tables including even 1-hr charger from Sanyo:
http://eneloop.com.sg/products/download/eneloopChargerChargingchart2008N09.pdf
http://eneloop.com.sg/products/download/eneloopChargerChargingchart2010.pdf


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## Dry-cell (Mar 27, 2011)

The break-in completed successfully, here are the results.

4AA Sanyo Eneloops (old), dated (2009)
Break-in: 2000mAh

*Break-in Results*

Slot 1: 1978 mAh, Min 322, Volt 1.46

Slot 2: 1959 mAh, Min 322, Volt 1.46

Slot 3: 1944 mAh, Min 315, Volt 1.46 

Slot 4: 1959 mAh, Min 321, Volt 1.46

Compared to the R&A results...

*Refresh and Analyze*

Slot 1: 1799 mAh, Min 232, Volt 1.44

Slot 2: 1778 mAh, Min 234, Volt 1.44

Slot 3: 1792 mAh, Min 232, Volt 1.44

Slot 4: 1758 mAh, Min 230, Volt 1.43


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## Dry-cell (Mar 27, 2011)

Regarding my AAA batteries, should I break them in for storage?. I have 8 and only use 2 of them for a gamepad. 4 Sanyo Eneloops and 4 Duracell Rechargables Pre-charged.


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## 45/70 (Mar 27, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> *Break-in Results*
> 
> Slot 1: 1978 mAh, Min 322, Volt 1.46
> 
> ...





45/70 said:


> I'll also add that I always perform a "break-in" cycle with new cells, regardless of their specific chemistry, discharging them first at a slow rate. Whether this really matters concerning LSD cells is debatable. _* My own observations have shown as much as a 150mAh advantage with eneloops*_, compared to not doing a break-in first.



Humm. Interesting!



Dry-cell said:


> Regarding my AAA batteries, should I break them in for storage?.


 
Dry-cell, I think you could probably go either way here. One advantage to going ahead and breaking the cells in, is that the chemicals within the cells would be more evenly distributed throughout the cell when you did decide to use them. This likely would speed up obtaining full cell capacity, eg. less cycling to obtain full capacity.

Dave


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## Dry-cell (Mar 27, 2011)

Here's what it looks like in my spreadsheet so far._


Friday, March 11, 2011_

4 AA Sanyo Eneloops (old), dated 2009
Charge: 1000 mA Discharge: 500 mA

*Refresh & Analyze Results*

Slot 1: 1799 mAh, Min 232, Volt 1.44

Slot 2: 1778 mAh, Min 234, Volt 1.44

Slot 3: 1792 mAh, Min 232, Volt 1.44

Slot 4: 1758 mAh, Min 230, Volt 1.43

Placed in case in the middle row, column 5 and 6 in matching order.
Placed High #s in column 5 lower #s in column 6.


_Sunday, March 27, 2011_

4 AA Sanyo Eneloops (old), dated 2009
Break-in: 2000mAh

*Break-in Results*

Slot 1: 1978 mAh, Min 322, Volt 1.46

Slot 2: 1959 mAh, Min 322, Volt 1.46

Slot 3: 1944 mAh, Min 315, Volt 1.46

Slot 4: 1959 mAh, Min 321, Volt 1.46

Ran discharge at 400mA and rested for 1h and 15min prior to doing the break-in.
Placed in case in the middle row, column 5 and 6 in matching order.
Placed High #s in column 5 lower #s in column 6.


_Sunday, March 20, 2011_

4 AA Sanyo Eneloops (old), dated 2010
Charge: 1000 mA Discharge: 400 mA

*Refresh & Analyze Results*

Slot 1: 1795 mAh, Min 292, Volt 1.45

Slot 2: 1802 mAh, Min 296, Volt 1.46

Slot 3: 1798 mAh, Min 291, Volt 1.46

Slot 4: 1785 mAh, Min 292, Volt 1.45

Left in charger after done was displayed for 1h 30min extra
Placed in case in the middle row, column 1 and 2 in matching order.
Placed High #s in column 1 lower #s in column 2.


_Friday, March 25, 2011_

4 AA Sanyo Eneloops (old), dated 2010
Break-in: 2000mAh

*Break-in Results*

Slot 1: 1992 mAh, Min 324, Volt 1.49

Slot 2: 1987 mAh, Min 327, Volt 1.49

Slot 3: 1976 mAh, Min 320, Volt 1.47

Slot 4: 1998 mAh, Min 327, Volt 1.49

Ran discharge at 400mA and rested for 1h and 15min prior to doing the break-in.
Placed in case in the middle row, column 1 and 2 in matching order.
Placed High #s in column 1 lower #s in column 2.



*Notes:*

400mA discharge with AA Sanyo Eneloops takes ruffly 290min to complete.

Discharge during break-in took ruffly 319-327min to complete.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 29, 2011)

I ordered myself one more pack of Sanyo Eneloop AA (1000 cycle) from Amazon Export Sales, Inc. They were on sale, $5.00 off.


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## Eismagier (Mar 29, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> I ordered myself one more pack of Sanyo Eneloop AA (1000 cycle) from Amazon Export Sales, Inc. They were on sale, $5.00 off.


 Both the packaging and product description indicate that this is old stock and not new (HR-3UTG*A*) cells. I hope for your sake that this is just outdated information on the website rather than them trying to get rid of first generation Eneloops.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 29, 2011)

Their the same 1000 cycle Eneloops I bought from them before. The 1500 cycle Eneloops are harder to get and are expensive. There's nothing wrong with the old ones, they're good enough for me.


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## Eismagier (Mar 29, 2011)

Of course there's nothing technically "wrong" with first generation Eneloops. It's just that they stopped producing those a year ago, so what you're buying has been sitting in a warehouse for at least that long.


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## Battery Guy (Mar 29, 2011)

Personally, I think that the excitement over the 1500X cycle Eneloops is much ado about nothing. The 1000 and 1500 cycle versions have identical discharge behavior, all the way up to 10 A. See here.

My completely unsubstantiated hypothesis is that there is no difference between the two versions, and that the 1500X Eneloop is simply the end result of small tweaks and improvements that Sanyo made to the product over the five years that they have been manufacturing them. My guess is that all recently manufactured 2000 mAh Eneloops are essentially identical.

Given the excellent track record with the "original" Eneloop, my recommendation would be to buy whatever version is readily available and cheapest. 

Cheers,
BG


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## Eismagier (Mar 29, 2011)

Battery Guy said:


> My guess is that all recently manufactured 2000 mAh Eneloops are essentially identical.


 My point is that there are no recently manufactured "first generation" Eneloops. There might have been a smooth transition, but there are no Eneloops manufactured within the past 12+ months that aren't marked as second generation.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 29, 2011)

I guess it's better then getting fake 1500 cycle Eneloops, the last pack I got from Amazon were marked 09.

I only needed a pack of 4, not 8-16 that the seller's were offering. They don't seem to ship Internationally. One seller who does only ships Expedited to Canada, and that costs 50$ on top of the price of the batteries!.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 29, 2011)

How do the Duracell Rechargeable Pre-Charged 2000mAh AA batteries compare to Eneloops?. Aren't they re-branded Eneloops?, the AAA ones I have are made in Japan. I would have been better off buying them instead.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 29, 2011)

BTW, when I receive my Eneloops, I'll be doing a 400mA discharge prior to running a break-in @ 2000mAh. What is the max shelf life of Eneloops?, isn't it five or more years?.


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## Dry-cell (Mar 31, 2011)

Anyway, I'll let you guys know the discharge and break-in results of my Duracell Rechargeable Pre-Charged AAA 800mAh batteries. I have them on discharge at the moment @ 200mA.


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## Dry-cell (Apr 1, 2011)

Hey guys, is this normal for AAA batteries?, each slot is over capacity. The chargers in rest now, before the final 16h charge.

*Break-in Results*

Slot 1: 834 mAh

Slot 2: 818 mAh

Slot 3: 819 mAh

Slot 4: 823 mAh


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## Mr Happy (Apr 1, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> Hey guys, is this normal for AAA batteries?, each slot is over capacity.


It seems like your batteries are defective. You should return them and complain that the capacity is too high.


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## billcushman (Apr 2, 2011)

I recently used Break-in on two new 1000 cycle AAA Eneloops. The results were 843 and 824 mAh. I also used Break-in on four new 1500 cycle AAA Eneloops. The results were 851, 850, 847, and 851 mAh. 

Dry-cell, I'm glad you are feeling more comfortable using the Break-in mode. It takes almost two days, but is a good way to condition and analyze all brand new batteries.


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## blaize (Apr 2, 2011)

Hi all, newbie here,
I have lost the plot on this issue of eneloops and MH-C9000.
Bought new eneloops worked fine for 3 days with fairly regular use.
Tried to recharge in my old charger and nothing happened so went out and got this charger.
Recharged batteries (800ma AAA) not a sausage, so
Did a R&A got 10 mins out of them, so
Did a break in lasted 2 hours, so recharged again got 10 mins again.
I have followed instructions to the letter, set charge to 400ma discharge to 200ma but cannot get more than 10-20 mins out of these batteries.
I use the batteries for several things but they are mainly used in my sons game pad.
This charger has now been on for 2 weeks solid as with the breakin it takes 2 days to do each set of batteries and with trying to constantly recharge the eneloops.
Any suggestions would be extremely welcome.


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## Dry-cell (Apr 2, 2011)

After the break-in was completed with the Duracell Rechargeable Pre-Charged AAA batteries, I unplugged the charger and put the batteries in the case. After about two or three minutes I plugged the charger back in and put in a Sanyo Eneloop AAA and set it to discharge @ 200mA and hit enter. Then for some reason the screen went dark, I took the battery out and unplugged the charger. I think I'll wait an hour before trying again, I'm not sure why this happened because the other batteries weren't hot and either was the charger. Has this happened to you guys before?.


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## Eismagier (Apr 2, 2011)

It's usually a sign that the cell isn't seated properly. I've had that happen with AAA cells a few times.


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## Dry-cell (Apr 2, 2011)

One thing I noticed on the last break-in was, I set Slot 1, Slot 2, Slot 3 and Slot 4 to 800mAh then the charger when back to Slot 2 and I had to program it again (wierd).


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## Eismagier (Apr 2, 2011)

Again, make sure the cells are seated properly before you start programming. Rotating them a little while pushing down gently can help ensure good contact.


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## Dry-cell (Apr 2, 2011)

Okay thanks Eismagier, I did that last reply then noticed you had posted before me, I'll try again soon.

*Edit: I have the four AAA Eneloops in discharge now, all is working well. *


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## Dry-cell (Apr 2, 2011)

blaize said:


> Hi all, newbie here,
> I have lost the plot on this issue of eneloops and MH-C9000.
> Bought new eneloops worked fine for 3 days with fairly regular use.
> Tried to recharge in my old charger and nothing happened so went out and got this charger.
> ...


 
Hello Blaize,

Charge AA Eneloops @ 1000mA
Discharge @ 400mA or 500mA

Charge AAA Eneloops @ 400mA
Disharge @ 200mA

It's recommened to do a discharge prior to running a break-in, let the batteries rest for an hour before running a break-in. Choose break-in and set the capacity of the battery (800mAh or 2000mAh) for each slot.

If you do just a regular charge, after *done* is displayed, leave the batteries in the charger and let it apply a 1-2h top-off charge.

Take a look at the MH-C9000 Charger-Analyzer F.A.Q.
Download the MH-C9000 pdf manual:


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## Dry-cell (Apr 2, 2011)

Mr Happy said:


> It seems like your batteries are defective. You should return them and complain that the capacity is too high.


 
I'd like to see the face of the person at the return counter when I mention that to them. :laughing:


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## blaize (Apr 3, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> Hello Blaize,
> 
> Charge AA Eneloops @ 1000mA
> Discharge @ 400mA or 500mA
> ...


 Thanks for the reply,
I have the manual, IMHO it's a pretty poor manual.
On the eneloops site it states that R&A is not neccesary with their batteries as they do not suffer "memory loss".
I suppose my gripe is, I bought the supposedly best rechargable batteries on the market, then had to fork out for a supposedly best charger and 2 weeks later I'm still without any usable batteries. OK, I'm no techie but I'm no thicko either, I didn't think it would turn into rocket science.
I will try your suggestions, although I read that it was bad to fully discharge a battery.
Many thanks for your time and advice.


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## Eismagier (Apr 3, 2011)

blaize said:


> I will try your suggestions, although I read that it was bad to fully discharge a battery.


 The C9000 discharges to 0.9V, which is about as low as you can safely go. It is, however, indeed bad to *fully* discharge NiMH cells.


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## billcushman (Apr 3, 2011)

blaize said:


> Did a break in lasted 2 hours, so recharged again got 10 mins again. I have followed instructions to the letter, set charge to 400ma discharge to 200ma but cannot get more than 10-20 mins out of these batteries. Any suggestions would be extremely welcome.



What was the reported capacity on all batteries when you performed a Break-in? What is the make and model of your son's Game Pad? Does the manufacturer of the Game Pad recommend use of rechargeable batteries?


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## Dry-cell (Apr 3, 2011)

@ Blaize,

I think it's best to get a gamepad that has a low battery indicator so you don't end up fully discharging the batteries each time. Where did you buy the Eneloops from, and what is the other charger you have?, is it a NiMH charger?.


----------



## blaize (Apr 3, 2011)

billcushman said:


> What was the reported capacity on all batteries when you performed a Break-in? What is the make and model of your son's Game Pad? Does the manufacturer of the Game Pad recommend use of rechargeable batteries?


billcushman,
Sorry I did not note any figures as I had no idea this was all going to become as big an issue as it has.
I think you may have hit upon something with gamepad. They are no name ones, I mean not any identifying marks what so ever but it did state on packet that they were compatible for rechargeable.
I am new to battery technology so find some of the maths tricky but I'm not to stupid to learn, as such I was wondering if I can check whether the batteries are actually not charging properly or if the gamepad is drawing more power than they can cope with.
They take 4xAAA, I am using eneloop 800ma.
Many thanks for your help


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## Eismagier (Apr 3, 2011)

blaize said:


> I was wondering if I can check whether the batteries are actually not charging properly or if the gamepad is drawing more power than they can cope with.


Let the fully charged cells rest for an hour or so, then run them through a discharge cycle on the C9000 at 200 or 400 mAh. That should tell you if the cells are ok, at least.



blaize said:


> They take 4xAAA, I am using eneloop 800ma.


If it's for the PC, have you considered getting a decent gamepad? I'd suggest an Xbox 360 Wireless Controller. Takes two AA cells and runs forever on a pair of Eneloops. You can buy a bundle that includes the necessary wireless receiver for the PC.


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## blaize (Apr 3, 2011)

Hi,
You must ecxuse me, I have been surfing the net and trawling through the endless posts on this site regarding these batteries and charger and my brain has gone into meltdown.
The charger and batteries were off amazon. I've no idea if the eneloops are legit but they appear so. The charger has firmware OJO HA no idea if this is up to date.My other charger was for Nimh, but confess to it being a Zezap.
The game pads, I have to admit were off ebay and bargain bingo ones, however, when I first put eneloops in straight from packet they did work for about 3 days with fairly heavy use. The problem has been that ever since then I cannot get them to recharge enough to last more than 10 mins( oh apart from when I ran them through a break-in when they lasted about 2 hours) which makes me feel it is the charging and not the gamepad.
It has been suggested to discharge them, rest, then run them through 2 break-in cycles this will take almost 5 days.
I do find all the calculating needed with the c9000 a pain, is there a charging for dummies info anywhere?


----------



## Dry-cell (Apr 3, 2011)

Just curious, what are the date stamps on the Eneloops?.


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## Russel (Apr 3, 2011)

blaize said:


> [...]
> I do find all the calculating needed with the c9000 a pain, is there a charging for dummies info anywhere?


 
Charging Eneloop AA cells with a MH-C9000 charger is really very easy. If you simply want to charge them, place them in the charger observing the correct cell polarity, and simply watch as the charger starts charging the cells (after a short pause) at the default 1000mA rate.


To run a break-in cycle on Eneloop AA cells, place the cells in the charger (again observing the correct cell polarity) select break-in mode and when the charger requests the cell capacity use the buttons with the up or down arrows to adjust the number on the display to 2000mAh.


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## Mr Happy (Apr 3, 2011)

blaize said:


> It has been suggested to discharge them, rest, then run them through 2 break-in cycles this will take almost 5 days.
> I do find all the calculating needed with the c9000 a pain, is there a charging for dummies info anywhere?


You do not need to run a break-in, but having a C9000 is very good, it means we can try to learn what is going wrong with your batteries.

Take your batteries, put them on R&A, charge at 500 mA, discharge at 200 mA, make a note of the numbers at the end. Also, watch the display during the cycle and see what is happening. During charge the voltage of the batteries should rise up to about 1.47 V. During discharge the voltage should decrease to 0.9 V over a period of about 4 hours. The final charge should take about 2 hours. At the end, note the capacity in mAh for each slot.

This may seem a bit complicated, but when you have puzzling behavior from your batteries we have to get into this level of detail.

Right now I am very puzzled. I have not experienced Eneloops behaving this badly so I can't guess what is going wrong. If you have any fresh batteries that have not yet been put through the game pad, it would be good to run the same test on those. This should establish whether the C9000 is working properly.

[Edited: fixed charge and discharge rates suitable for AAA batteries]


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## Lite_me (Apr 3, 2011)

Please note guys. I believe blaize is using AAA batteries.


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## Mr Happy (Apr 3, 2011)

Lite_me said:


> Please note guys. I believe blaize is using AAA batteries.


You are right, I have fixed my last post.


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## Dry-cell (Apr 3, 2011)

Here are the results of my AAA Sanyo Eneloops (1000 cycle).

*Break-in Results*

Slot 1: 831 mAh

Slot 2: 825 mAh

Slot 3: 823 mAh

Slot 4: 833 mAh


Here's some pictures of my setup. http://img852.imageshack.us/g/1002406.jpg/http://img852.imageshack.us/g/1002406.jpg/


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## blaize (Apr 3, 2011)

Mr Happy said:


> You do not need to run a break-in, but having a C9000 is very good, it means we can try to learn what is going wrong with your batteries.
> 
> Take your batteries, put them on R&A, charge at 500 mA, discharge at 200 mA, make a note of the numbers at the end. Also, watch the display during the cycle and see what is happening. During charge the voltage of the batteries should rise up to about 1.47 V. During discharge the voltage should decrease to 0.9 V over a period of about 4 hours. The final charge should take about 2 hours. At the end, note the capacity in mAh for each slot.
> 
> ...


Thanks you guys I really do appreciate your time and help,
Date stamp is 09 08, they have the word "of" and have the vent.
R&A takes about 16 hours, yet a charge takes about 1-2 hours. Discharge has just completed took 12 hours, I have already put this lot on break in as suggested, this is taking about 48 hours to complete and then I will put them on R&A (16 hours)so I will not be able to come back to you for at least 3 days with end figures till then.
The thing I find a little disconcerting is all the posts I have read about these batteries, there a few on this site, one thread being 26 pages long. It has twisted my melon going through them all this whole weekend and it has to begger the question WHY? surely it's not right. I realise we all want to get the best out of our batteries but this feels like a diploma study. Sorry for whinge, I'm totally enelooped out this weekend, I need a discharge,rest and slow topping off.
Many thanks to you all.


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## bbb74 (Apr 3, 2011)

Blaize, you might have a defective c9000. Or you may have bad contact between the batteries and charger. I find if I don't fully insert batteries (particularly with the AAAs I get this), you can put them in and it starts doing its thing but after a while it stops. And its always because the AAA's were not fully inserted, I have to really push them down and in, and sometimes I think the batt is fully in and its not, I push down and the batt "clicks" in a lot further.


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## Mr Happy (Apr 3, 2011)

blaize said:


> I have already put this lot on break in as suggested


This is just me talking, but I'll say again it is too early to put them on a break-in cycle. If it were me, I would just take them out of the charger right now, put them on the R&A cycle with the settings I suggested, *and make a note of the numbers*. I can't stress this last part enough. The performance of your batteries and charger is so far away from the norm that complicated tests are unnecessary. We need to get some idea of what is going wrong here, and simple, fast tests are the best starting point for that.

Sorry for giving you different advice from other people, but Eneloops do not normally behave the way you are describing. You are having a bad experience with your batteries and charger, I am sure you would like to know what is going on, and waiting 40 hours for a break-in cycle to complete is not the way to get quick answers. You are being given poor advice there.


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## Dry-cell (Apr 3, 2011)

I'd listen to Mr. Happy, he knows his stuff. :thumbsup:


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## 45/70 (Apr 3, 2011)

I'll go along with Mr H here. I think you need to find out what's wrong first. Obviously there is something drastically wrong here, as eneloops just don't normally behave like this. I would avoid a break in as well, and do some quicker tests to find the problem.

bbb74 brought up a good point. Sometimes AAA cells are difficult to properly seat in the C9000. They'll go in correctly, but you have to be adamant about it. Improper contact could very well be the problem.

Dave


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## TakeTheActive (Apr 4, 2011)

blaize said:


> Hi all, *newbie here*,
> I have lost the plot on this issue of eneloops and MH-C9000.
> *Bought new eneloops worked fine for 3 days with fairly regular use.*
> *Tried to recharge in my old charger and nothing happened so went out and got this charger.*
> ...



The fact that the "*NOT RECENTLY CHARGED"* (as delivered - i.e. 80% or less) Eneloops lasted 3 days (versus 10 minutes) indicates that they are HEALTHY and that you did *NOT* recharge them fully.
.
What is is Make / Model of your OLD charger?
.
I don't understand the "...*not a sausage*..." statement. 
.



blaize said:


> ...I have the manual, *IMHO it's a pretty poor manual*... ...*I bought the supposedly best rechargable batteries on the market, then had to fork out for a supposedly best charger and 2 weeks later I'm still without any usable batteries. OK, I'm no techie but I'm no thicko either, I didn't think it would turn into rocket science*...


The manual explains *ALL* the DETAILS of the C9000, although not in the most SIMPLIST TERMS.

You bought the BEST CHARGER *AND* the BEST LSD CELLS - if this combination is NOT working out for you, the problem is ELSEWHERE.
.



blaize said:


> ...*I had no idea this was all going to become as big an issue as it has*.
> 
> *I think you may have hit upon something with gamepad. They are no name ones*... ...I am new to battery technology so find some of the maths tricky but *I'm not to stupid to learn*...


The "Low Voltage" point of your '_devices_' is CRITICAL!

Rechargeable NiMHs (and NiCDs) plateau at ~1.2VDC and then *DROP LIKE A ROCK*, while NON-Rechargeable Alkalines (and Carbon Zinc) decline from ~1.5VDC GRADUALLY.

IMHO, the "Cut-Off" voltage of your NO-NAME Gamepad is the CULPRIT in this '_crime_'.
.



blaize said:


> ...*You must ecxuse me, I have been surfing the net and trawling through the endless posts on this site regarding these batteries and charger and my brain has gone into meltdown*... ...*It has been suggested to discharge them, rest, then run them through 2 break-in cycles this will take almost 5 days.
> I do find all the calculating needed with the c9000 a pain, is there a charging for dummies info anywhere?*


I *TOTALLY* understand your "*Meltdown*" - for a NON-TECHIE, it's certainly a LOT to absorb. Invest some of your personal time learning the BASICs (i.e. Read the posts in My Sig Line LINK) and the "*A Ha*" moments will arrive.
.



blaize said:


> ...*R&A takes about 16 hours, yet a charge takes about 1-2 hours. Discharge has just completed took 12 hours*, I have already put this lot on break in as suggested, *this is taking about 48 hours* to complete and then *I will put them on R&A (16 hours)*so I will not be able to come back to you for at least 3 days with end figures till then...
> 
> ...*It has twisted my melon going through them all this whole weekend and it has to begger the question WHY? surely it's not right*...


R&A depends *SOLELY* on the *CHARGE / DISCHARGE* parameters *YOU* specify.
If *YOU* set a 200mA CHARGE RATE, it will take 'AT LEAST' 4 hours PLUS to charge a 800mAh AAA cell (Charge efficiency is PROPORTIONAL to Charge Rate - i.e. Low Rate -> Longer; High Rate -> Faster).
.
If *YOU* set a 100mA DISCHARGE RATE, it will take 'AT LEAST' "Cell Capacity / Discharge Rate" (i.e. 800mA/100mA = 8 HOURS).
*________________________________________*​
*blaize*,

None of this is ROCKET SCIENCE - you just need to UNDERSTAND *EVERYTHING* that's going on. 

IMHO, you joined this forum, didn't do much researching / SEARCHing the Archives, and then started complaining. 

Let me give you an example of what I perceive to be YOUR problem:
You bought a NEW/USED '_relatively unknown_' automobile with a BROKEN SPEEDOMETER and a BROKEN FUEL GAUGE (i.e. NONAME GamePad).
.
You filled the tank with PREMIUM GASOLINE (i.e. Sanyo Eneloops).
.
You're upset that you're getting SPEEDING TICKETS.
.
You're upset that you're RUNNING OUT OF GAS.
So, first of all, I'm going to point you to my Sig Line LINK for LOTs of GOOD INFORMATION!

Face it - if you join a new forum and START COMPLAINING *WITHOUT* reading the STICKYs / FAQs, what do you expect?

Here's my "First Impression":
Your Eneloops are FINE.
.
Your "*El Cheapo*" Game Pads are *CRAP*.
.
Without posting the DETAILS of your "*16 hour R&As*", your results are meaningless.
- What was the *CHARGE Rate*?
- What was the *DISCHARGE Rate*?
.
Run your Eneloops through a MH-C9000 BREAK-IN @ 800mAh and post the results.
*Bottom Line: *

While on the ONE HAND, I totally understand your Newbie confusion, on the OTHER HAND, you're asking questions that have been "*Asked & Answered*" over-and-over.

Get SERIOUS, invest some of YOUR TIME reading the CPF Archives, and you'll learn about / find the answer to your questions. :thinking:​[Yes, I'm being BLUNT once again, but how long do you want this '_misconception_' to continue? Another ~1-2 hours of personal time invested in a NewBie - let's see if there's any return...]


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## blaize (Apr 4, 2011)

Dry-cell,
In your reply 109 you told me to do a break-in?
I appreciate the comments on proper battery insertion as I had this prob ( a bit of a design fault I think) but I am aware of this now and ensure they are in correctly.
TakeTheActive,
I'm not sure if you have misread my posts or you just have an abrasive manner. I have been trying to resolve this problem for 3 months and have read all I can and have followed the instructions fully, so your implication that I am lazy is unjust.
Mr Happy I have taken batteries off break-in and put them on R&A, I will get back when the cycle is complete with the figures.
I would like to make it clear that I am extremely grateful for the time,help and patience you all take out of your days to help others, I assure you it is very much appreciated.


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## Dry-cell (Apr 4, 2011)

Sorry Blaize, but I was just letting you know the correct charge and discharge rates you should use in the future. When you buy new batteries you should do a discharge with 1h rest, then break-in. Once you do that, you can use them as normal for so many cycles.


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## billcushman (Apr 4, 2011)

Blaize - When the C9000 completes any selected operation it displays Done on each slot containing a battery. The display provides important information that is displayed sequentially on each slot. No matter what you have selected, make sure that Done is displayed and record the information for each slot. Include the units, mAh, min, volts, etc. In none of your posts have you provided ANY data which was displayed on the C9000. Be sure and also tell which cycle you used (Charge, R & A, Break-in, etc). Unless you provide quantitative data, it is impossible to diagnose your problem. If you have a Multimeter or DVM, record the open circuit voltage of each battery before and/or after use.


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## Dry-cell (Apr 4, 2011)

Can someone explain what these numbers mean on this stamp... *10 - 09 EK*. Isn't the first two digits the year?.

The stamp is on my AAA Eneloops I just did a break-in on.


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## ecrbattery (Apr 4, 2011)

Check out the How-to-read-Eneloop-date-code. thread.



Mr Happy said:


> The first two digits are the year and the second two digits are the month.




Is the cpfwiki get updated anymore? http://www.cpfwiki.com/Wiki/index.php/Battery_date_code


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## Dry-cell (Apr 4, 2011)

Okay, thanks Ecrbattery.


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## blaize (Apr 4, 2011)

billcushman said:


> Blaize - When the C9000 completes any selected operation it displays Done on each slot containing a battery. The display provides important information that is displayed sequentially on each slot. No matter what you have selected, make sure that Done is displayed and record the information for each slot. Include the units, mAh, min, volts, etc. In none of your posts have you provided ANY data which was displayed on the C9000. Be sure and also tell which cycle you used (Charge, R & A, Break-in, etc). Unless you provide quantitative data, it is impossible to diagnose your problem. If you have a Multimeter or DVM, record the open circuit voltage of each battery before and/or after use.


I am following Mr Happys instructions and have the batts on R&A at the mo. They have been on for 8 hours so far but as I said before R&A usually takes 16 hours.
As soon as they are"done" I will come back with the data.
Many thanks.


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## Mr Happy (Apr 4, 2011)

blaize said:


> I am following Mr Happys instructions and have the batts on R&A at the mo. They have been on for 8 hours so far but as I said before R&A usually takes 16 hours.
> As soon as they are"done" I will come back with the data.


Have you been watching the charger? What is happening with each slot right now?

When charging an AAA cell at 500 mA, it should take at most two hours to complete the charge. Then the cell will rest for one hour before starting the discharge phase. At 200 mA that should take about four hours. After the discharge there is another one hour rest and followed by a two hour charge. Therefore we have:

Charge: 2 hr (at most)
Rest: 1 hr
Discharge: 4 hr
Rest: 1 hr
Charge: 2 hr
Total: 10 hr

If they have been on for 8 hr so far then according to the above table they should be in the final rest or final charge stage. Right now, does the C9000 say "discharge", "charge" or nothing ("rest")? What are the numbers cycling on each slot for voltage (V), charge (MAH), time (MIN), current (MA)?


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## blaize (Apr 4, 2011)

Mr Happy said:


> Have you been watching the charger? What is happening with each slot right now?
> 
> When charging an AAA cell at 500 mA, it should take at most two hours to complete the charge. Then the cell will rest for one hour before starting the discharge phase. At 200 mA that should take about four hours. After the discharge there is another one hour rest and followed by a two hour charge. Therefore we have:
> 
> ...


Here is the data.
Slot1........805mah...1.47v.....264min
Slot2........809mah...1.46v.....267min
Slot3........812mah...1.46v.....266min
Slot4........817mah...1.45v.....269min

The cycle did follow the sequence you stated and has took about 10 hours. I'm sorry but I didn't realise I was supposed to note Ma whilst operating.
I hope I haven't dropped a clanger.


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## Mr Happy (Apr 4, 2011)

blaize said:


> Here is the data.
> Slot1........805mah...1.47v.....264min
> Slot2........809mah...1.46v.....267min
> Slot3........812mah...1.46v.....266min
> ...


That's OK. The reason for noting the numbers while operating is to help understand if anything has gone wrong, and what that might be.

So far, the results look good. All four batteries are showing a capacity of about 800 mAh as they should, and the time for the R&A cycle is about right. What I would do is mark the batteries in slots 1 & 2 and keep them together, and the batteries in slots 3 & 4 and keep them together (assuming you have a device that uses batteries in pairs). I can't remember whether your application uses two cells or four cells.

At this point, I would say your charger is working correctly and your batteries are performing as they should.

You now have four fully charged batteries. The next step is to use them in something like the game pad and see what happens. If they only last a very short time in the game pad, then the conclusion must be that the game pad is the problem. Either it is faulty, or it is not designed for rechargeable batteries. One possible fault is that it keeps draining the batteries even when you think it is switched off. To check for that, you could remove the batteries from the game pad when it is not in use and see if the batteries last longer.


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## blaize (Apr 4, 2011)

Mr Happy,
I'm glad the results are positive. I will get my son to give them a whirl (again), he has lost faith in me and these batteries. He has tried them from a fresh charge before, as they only last 10 mins they don't have chance to drain through leaving the batteries in the gamepad.
I agree that it would appear to be the gamepad but I'm confused why they worked fine when installed on pre charge, which given the date stamp you'd think that pre charge would be lower than that of a fresh charge.
Hi Ho. You never know. I'll let you know the results.
Many,many thanks to you and all for your valuable time and help.


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## Mr Happy (Apr 4, 2011)

blaize said:


> Mr Happy,
> I'm glad the results are positive. I will get my son to give them a whirl (again), he has lost faith in me and these batteries. He has tried them from a fresh charge before, as they only last 10 mins they don't have chance to drain through leaving the batteries in the gamepad.
> I agree that it would appear to be the gamepad but I'm confused why they worked fine when installed on pre charge, which given the date stamp you'd think that pre charge would be lower than that of a fresh charge.
> Hi Ho. You never know. I'll let you know the results.
> Many,many thanks to you and all for your valuable time and help.


Yes, this does seem to be a puzzle. What I'd suggest is that if/when the gamepad stops working after you next put the batteries in it, then don't try to recharge them immediately. Instead, put them in the C9000 on Discharge at a rate of 200 mA and wait for them to finish, see what discharge reading in mAh the C9000 gives. The difference between this number and 800 mAh will be the amount of charge the gamepad used before giving up. Let us know what you find.


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## blaize (Apr 5, 2011)

Mr Happy said:


> Yes, this does seem to be a puzzle. What I'd suggest is that if/when the gamepad stops working after you next put the batteries in it, then don't try to recharge them immediately. Instead, put them in the C9000 on Discharge at a rate of 200 mA and wait for them to finish, see what discharge reading in mAh the C9000 gives. The difference between this number and 800 mAh will be the amount of charge the gamepad used before giving up. Let us know what you find.



Okey dokey.
I'm sure he will be on it later today and I've got a funny feeling they are going to go as quick as before. So I may well have the info after discharge soon.
Will get back to you and many thanks again.


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## billcushman (Apr 5, 2011)

Blaize - If you have not already installed the batteries in the GamePad, wait until he is ready to use it before you install the batteries. If you have installed the batteries already, do not remove them unless advised to do so by Mr. Happy. Good luck, I hope you are surprised by a positive result.


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## TakeTheActive (Apr 5, 2011)

blaize said:


> TakeTheActive,
> I'm not sure if you have misread my posts or you just have an abrasive manner. I have been trying to resolve this problem for 3 months and have read all I can and have followed the instructions fully, so your implication that I am lazy is unjust...


Quite often, new folks join a forum and immediately start asking BASIC questions that have been 'Asked-and-Answered' hundreds of times already. You joined the forum and began posting this month and all of your posts appeared to be complaining about the Eneloops and having to purchase the C9000 - both considered the BEST in their class by many here. I BLUNTLY '_complained_' back (as stated at the end of my post  ), and offered my observations and suggestions. You did not indicate that you were lurking here for three months, reading all of the STICKYs and FAQs, and were still confused. Instead, you were consistently negative - "_...no thicko... ...rocket science... ...big an issue... ...twisted my melon..._" etc... My goal was to get you to read and learn about the BASICs of rechargeable cells and NOT have to lead you step-by-step. This forum is the BEST place I've found to learn about the topic and that's why I decided to create my FAQ.

You posted no DETAILS (Charge Rate, Discharge Rate) and described a problem that, to me at least, pointed directly to the El Cheapo gamepad. The C9000 can verify itself and the cells.

I'm sorry that you're having a problem. The numbers you posted indicate the Eneloops are fine - back to the gamepad. 

Good Luck!


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## billcushman (Apr 6, 2011)

Blaize - I hope no news is good news. Let us know if the GamePad is in use and if the batteries are still working.


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## Dry-cell (Apr 6, 2011)

Those AA Eneloops (old) I ordered from Amazon came in today, their stamped *10-08ED*.


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## billcushman (Apr 6, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> Those AA Eneloops (old) I ordered from Amazon came in today, their stamped *10-08ED*.


 
The 1500 cycle Eneloop AAs I have are stamped 10-08 EG. Do your batteries have a Crown symbol next to the + mark? If they do, they are the new 1500 cycle Eneloops. If they were in a blister pack, did the package list the cycle rating?


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## Dry-cell (Apr 6, 2011)

No no, their the 1000 cycle one's (HR6 HR-3UTG).


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## Eismagier (Apr 6, 2011)

That's very interesting. I thought they'd switched production over to the new model entirely and vendors were just selling off old stock of first generation Eneloops.


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## billcushman (Apr 6, 2011)

My 1500 cycle AA Eneloops dated 10-08 EG are marked HR-3UTGA, have colored jackets and a Crown next to the + symbol. The vents are visible on the positive terminal.


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## Dry-cell (Apr 6, 2011)

Well when I bought the "Sanyo Eneloop 4 Pack AA NiMH Pre-Charged Rechargable Batteries w/ Charger (SEC-MQN064)", like I stated in the first post in this thread. The batteries were dated 10-08EE.


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## typinghands (Apr 7, 2011)

Wanted to say thank you again for the helpful information. As a noob, this reliable info from so many people gives me a great appreciation of the outstanding products that are out there.

Txs again.


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## blaize (Apr 8, 2011)

billcushman said:


> Blaize - I hope no news is good news. Let us know if the GamePad is in use and if the batteries are still working.


No news is no news. Usually you can't get him off it ( not true he's pretty good about it),I restrict his use but now I'm asking him when he'll be going on it ha ha. He's had loads of school work so hasn't had time since I finished the charge process, which is better for him but no so good for our investigation. W/E coming up so.......
I have 8 x AAA so 2 sets fully loaded so it will be interesting to see if either or both hold up, I certainly haven't forgot you guys.


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## blaize (Apr 10, 2011)

billcushman said:


> Blaize - If you have not already installed the batteries in the GamePad, wait until he is ready to use it before you install the batteries. If you have installed the batteries already, do not remove them unless advised to do so by Mr. Happy. Good luck, I hope you are surprised by a positive result.



Suprised,very, positively, not.
The 1st set lasted.........3 mins (is that a record). The 2nd set ( in 2nd controller) 20 mins.
I have left the batteries in the controllers as advised so advice on next step much appreciated.
The batteries were charged on wednesday and it is sunday today but I would expect the batteries to hold a charge for those 3 days but what do I know anymore.
Surfing the web I get the distinct impression that RF gamepads are notorious for draining ALL types of batteries, maybe this is just a lost cause.


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## Eismagier (Apr 10, 2011)

blaize said:


> Surfing the web I get the distinct impression that RF gamepads are notorious for draining ALL types of batteries, maybe this is just a lost cause.


 There are good wireless controllers that don't burn through batteries. Putting good cells into a crap device won't solve your problems.


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## Mr Happy (Apr 10, 2011)

blaize said:


> Suprised,very, positively, not.
> The 1st set lasted.........3 mins (is that a record). The 2nd set ( in 2nd controller) 20 mins.
> I have left the batteries in the controllers as advised so advice on next step much appreciated.
> The batteries were charged on wednesday and it is sunday today but I would expect the batteries to hold a charge for those 3 days but what do I know anymore.
> Surfing the web I get the distinct impression that RF gamepads are notorious for draining ALL types of batteries, maybe this is just a lost cause.


Well, that is disappointing of course. Now is the time to put a set of the "spent" batteries (the three minute ones?) into the C9000 and set it to Discharge mode at 500 mA. This will have the C9000 measure what charge remains in the batteries. When you start the discharge, make a note of the voltages recorded in each slot in the first minute or two of the discharge. This will give a further indication of how well charged the batteries are at present.


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## blaize (Apr 10, 2011)

Mr Happy said:


> Well, that is disappointing of course. Now is the time to put a set of the "spent" batteries (the three minute ones?) into the C9000 and set it to Discharge mode at 500 mA. This will have the C9000 measure what charge remains in the batteries. When you start the discharge, make a note of the voltages recorded in each slot in the first minute or two of the discharge. This will give a further indication of how well charged the batteries are at present.


Each slot reads 1.22v 
Do I now leave them on discharge till finished?


----------



## Mr Happy (Apr 10, 2011)

blaize said:


> Each slot reads 1.22v
> Do I now leave them on discharge till finished?


Yes, leave them to finish and then record the final mAh capacity readings in each slot.

I am going to guess that the discharge will take 3-4 hours and the final readings will be in the 1600-1700 mAh range. Let us wait and see.

I am estimating that the game pad is giving a premature low battery signal, which likely means it is not well designed. A well designed device should not give a low battery signal until the voltage is less than 1.1 V per battery, or even lower than that.

Does the game pad actually stop working, or does it just give a low battery warning? If it is only giving a low battery warning but continues to operate, then I would suggest ignoring the warning and continuing to use it until it actually does stop.


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## blaize (Apr 10, 2011)

Mr Happy said:


> Yes, leave them to finish and then record the final mAh capacity readings in each slot.
> 
> I am going to guess that the discharge will take 3-4 hours and the final readings will be in the 1600-1700 mAh range. Let us wait and see.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mr Happy,
There are LEDs that flash on the reciever unit but they don't appear to be low charge indicators as when they flash the gamepad is totally inoperative.
Will get back to you with final discharge mah when done.


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## Eismagier (Apr 10, 2011)

Mr Happy said:


> I am going to guess that the discharge will take 3-4 hours and the final readings will be in the 1600-1700 mAh range. Let us wait and see.


 I wouldn't mind some 1600 mAh AAA Eneloops


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## Mr Happy (Apr 10, 2011)

Eismagier said:


> I wouldn't mind some 1600 mAh AAA Eneloops


Oops, I keep thinking they are AA batteries. 

Oh well, no real harm done. I guess the discharge will complete in about 1-2 hours and will be more like 700 mAh.


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## blaize (Apr 10, 2011)

Mr Happy said:


> Oops, I keep thinking they are AA batteries.
> 
> Oh well, no real harm done. I guess the discharge will complete in about 1-2 hours and will be more like 700 mAh.


Right on both counts,
721 - 724 mah
Put other set ( 20 mins ones) on disharge initial reading 1.23v.
Any hope?


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## Eismagier (Apr 10, 2011)

Hope for the cells, yes. 720 mAh means that your AAA Eneloops were about 90% charged at the time the gamepad turned itself off. So the batteries are fine. The gamepad is crap.


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## billcushman (Apr 10, 2011)

Blaize - You need to replace the GamePad to solve the battery problem. This appears to be a quality wireless GamePad, powered by two AA batteries. Here is a link to the manual.

http://logitech-en-amr.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/21426/kw//session/L3NpZC9PSVVyTDhyaw==

Check out the specifications on this unit and read the first user review, in which the user says battery life is excellent.

http://www.logitech.com/en-us/gaming/controllers/devices/7361


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## blaize (Apr 10, 2011)

billcushman said:


> Blaize - You need to replace the GamePad to solve the battery problem. This appears to be a quality wireless GamePad, powered by two AA batteries. Here is a link to the manual.
> 
> http://logitech-en-amr.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/21426/kw//session/L3NpZC9PSVVyTDhyaw==
> 
> ...


I guess in my heart of hearts I knew it was going to be the gamepads, in some ways it's the cheaper and less hassle result than returning the batteries or charger.
Strangely enough I have been looking at alternative gamepads and the one you give the link to has come up a few times.
I think it uses AA not AAA so I will have to invest in some AA and be left with 8 AAA that I will have to find a use for somewhere. Investing in more batteries and gamepads is a bitter pill at the mo given the hassle and expense I have already gone to over what started out as a simple gift for my sons birthday.
Though such is life these days with constantly changing technology and a lot of that technology coming from china etc at prices that really are to good to be true.
I'd like to give a great big thanks to you all for the help, advice and time you have given, it may not be the result I'd wished for but it's a result that I feel confident to make an informed decision on thanks to you all.
Who knows if I will be back here again, I do not have the knowledge to help others here but I take my hat off to you for being here for dummies like me.
I do give advice on other forums so I do feel that I repay in some way.
Many,many thanks and all the best to you and yours in life.

P:S: May well come back to let you know the score if new gamepad better but at this mo I feel like just going back to the old wired ones.


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## Dry-cell (Apr 10, 2011)

If it's a gamepad for the Wii, I recommend the Nyko Wing Wireless Classic Controller, it runs on two AAA batteries.


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## Mr Happy (Apr 10, 2011)

blaize said:


> Right on both counts,
> 721 - 724 mah
> Put other set ( 20 mins ones) on disharge initial reading 1.23v.
> Any hope?


These voltages are very good and healthy voltages for a discharging rechargeable battery.

Unfortunately as others have indicated above we have conclusively shown that the batteries and charger are working properly and the problem seems to be with the game pad. Please don't let this put you off rechargeable batteries though; you have acquired a very good charger and Eneloops are a very good choice of battery. If you have other things that use AA or AAA batteries (camera, flashlight, toothbrush, toys?) then rechargeable batteries can work out well.

In the case of the game pad there is still one more puzzle. You said that originally it ran for three days on the rechargeable batteries I think? This so far has not been explained by the tests we have done. Do you have a make or model number or link to the game pad in question where we might learn more about it?


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## Dry-cell (Apr 10, 2011)

This will be the last time I show my results in this thread. Here are the results of the lastest pack of...

4 AA Sanyo Eneloops (old), dated 2010 (10-08ED) 
Break-in: 2000mAh 

*Break-in Results* 

Slot 1: 1996 mAh 

Slot 2: 1979 mAh 

Slot 3: 1979 mAh 

Slot 4: 1986 mAh​


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## blaize (Apr 11, 2011)

Mr Happy said:


> These voltages are very good and healthy voltages for a discharging rechargeable battery.
> 
> Unfortunately as others have indicated above we have conclusively shown that the batteries and charger are working properly and the problem seems to be with the game pad. Please don't let this put you off rechargeable batteries though; you have acquired a very good charger and Eneloops are a very good choice of battery. If you have other things that use AA or AAA batteries (camera, flashlight, toothbrush, toys?) then rechargeable batteries can work out well.
> 
> In the case of the game pad there is still one more puzzle. You said that originally it ran for three days on the rechargeable batteries I think? This so far has not been explained by the tests we have done. Do you have a make or model number or link to the game pad in question where we might learn more about it?


I have been a rechargable fella for years and will continue to be, I'm sure I will find a use for the eneloop AAA's, if the truth be known I am just annoyed at life having to be so complicated at times and especially to the point of having to spend hours trying to resolve such issues as these.
I too am very confused why the gamepads worked for so long first time but they aren't now and as the batteries are fine it can only be the gamepads, I mean 3 minutes use is just ridiculous.
Mr Happy, I have searched every nook and cranny on the gamepads to find any identifying marks but there is not one, which suggests that they don't want any one to know where or who manafactures them. They didn't even come with instructions. When I asked seller about that they said they came to them without them, how suss.
The hardest thing is explaining to my son why the world means you have to spend 3 months trying to resolve his birthday present.


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## Marc999 (May 6, 2011)

Dry-cell said:


> I guess it's better then getting fake 1500 cycle Eneloops, the last pack I got from Amazon were marked 09.
> 
> I only needed a pack of 4, not 8-16 that the seller's were offering. They don't seem to ship Internationally. One seller who does only ships Expedited to Canada, and that costs 50$ on top of the price of the batteries!.


 

Hi Dry-Cell, 

From one fellow Canadian to another. 
(1) Shopper's Drug Mart [Duraloop's frequently on sale between $8-9 for a pack of 4 AA or AAA.] Just drop in once in awhile or check out their online flyers. Most of the time they are white topped/made in Japan cells, meaning Eneloops. 

(2) Dell.ca frequently has $9.99 specials for AA/AAA 4 pack Eneloops. Free shipping.

(3) Canada Computers. If you have these chains in your city, check them out. They even carry the new Eneloop XX [2,500 mah LSD]. Rather expensive still [$25 for a 4 pack], but they do carry them so keep your eye on them for price drops. They recently sold an 8 pack of Eneloop tones: 1,500 cycle batteries if that interests you for $25.00. Not an awesome price, but an option.

(4) Costco. Another option, but one I haven't bothered with considering the aforementioned above.

(5) Loblaws: Great Canadian Superstore. These folks sell PC [President's Choice: rebranded Eneloops] at checkout counters. If you're in a bind, this is an option although rather expensive @ $12-15 / 4 pack.

On a side note, my eneloops have never tested over 2,000 mah on the mh-c9000, either in Break-in or R&A. I'm not overly concerned but would have been nice to join the >2,000 club. Haha.

cheers,
Marc


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## Flatshovel (Jun 2, 2011)

Have been reading this post and I have a question. I need to purchase some of the eneloop lsd cells to replace a bunch of old nimh batterys that I have laying around that are old and have lost most of it capacity from years of use. After reading this post and others I have read that 1000mah is the correct charging rate to charge a 2000mah eneloop battery correct? I however do not own a Maha C9000 charger and have a LaCrosse BC900 and BC700 and assume that the BC900 would charge the eneloops ok? I know with some of my older non lsd batterys they would get rather hot to the touch when charged at 1000mah and would sometimes overheat on the charger. I have really considered dumping my chargers and purchasing a new C9000. Anyone one else on the forum use the BC900 to charge eneloops and if so does it work ok for them?

Thanks,
Joey


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## Mr Happy (Jun 2, 2011)

I don't own a BC900, but I understand it should work fine to charge Eneloops. I'd suggest using the 700 mA charge rate. The batteries should become warm, but not hot, at the end of charging. Also you should see no more than 2200 mAh of charge input to each cell.


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## 45/70 (Jun 2, 2011)

@ Flatshovel. I've had both the BC900 and C9000 for a few years. One of the shortcomings of the La Crosse chargers is that they are quite small and the cells are very close together. This results in the cells becoming hotter while charging, not only because they are close together, but due to heat from the charger itself.

In the Winter months when the inside temperature is cooler, I usually charge AA cells at either 700, or 1000mA. In the Summer when it can get quite hot indoors, I usually back that off to 700mA max, and if it's really warm, eg. 80F indoors, I drop the rate to 500mA.

With my BC900, one time, I had the charger miss termination of an AA cell at 500mA (the cell vented). Again, this only happened once, and it was while charging a well seasoned non LSD cell (Dynacharge 1800), but it's something to watch out for if you choose the 500mA rate when charging AA cells.

Dave


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## Russel (Jun 3, 2011)

If I need to charge Eneloop AA cells with my BC900, I charge at 1000mA but only two cells at a time, in the first and fourth cell bays.


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## AIRASSAULT18B (Jun 3, 2011)

Russel,
I was wondering how many cycles you run & what charge & discharge rates you use for your Eneloops on the Maha charger to get the great service life you have been getting?

AIRASSAULT18B


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## Russel (Jun 3, 2011)

I run all new Eneloop cells through a break-in cycle, then charge as needed. Eneloops that don't get drained much in normal use such as TV remotes, I cycle (discharge/charge) once every three months or so, and break-in cycle once a year for every cell. 

My prefered charge rate is 1000mA for AA cells and 400mA for AAA cells, discharge 400mA for AA and 200mA for AAA. Eneloop cells that aren't being used, I discharge, then charge about 10% and store in a sealed zip lock in the refrigerator. About once every six months I remove stored cells from the frig, let them warm over night (while still in a sealed zip lock) and cycle them - charge, discharge, charge to about 10%, then back in a sealed zip lock and into the frig. 

I also try to rotate the cells in use, that is occasionally swap cells in high and low drain devices. For example, my GPS during normal use drains two AA cells in about a week, after a couple cycles, I'll trade the cells with a couple in one of my TV remotes to help exercise the cells and help keep them vibrant.


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## Wrend (Jun 4, 2011)

I've been using Eneloops for a few years now, and I have many of both the old and new versions. I store them in a cool dry room fully charged so that they're ready to use whenever I need to use them.

When I first get them I discharge them and then slowly form charge them at 1/10 C. Though this probably isn't that necessary, it does seem to "wake them up" a little. They're usually pre-charged to about 75% capacity when I get them.

I only discharge and charge them up again if they've been sitting idle for several months (at least 6), and even then there isn't much improvement in their performance other than the small amount of capacity that they've self discharged while sitting. I prefer to not put seemingly needless and useless cycles on them as this probably does as much to wear them out as just being stored in a charged state, if not more. Keeping them cool may be more beneficial. But since the main point of having the batteries is to use them, I like being able to just go into my nice air-conditioned workroom, grab the cells I need, and use them. That, and there wouldn't be much room in my refrigerated for food if I were to store all my cells and battery packs in it.

The cells I have in storage aren't usually stored all that long anyway since I rotate them out to use when I need them. The cells that were sitting idle and charged for 6 months were in a somewhat older transmitter that I hardly use anymore. (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1078898)

Maha doesn't recommend charging at a slower rate (when doing a normal charge) than 1/3 C on the MH-C9000, and Sanyo doesn't recommend charging Eneloops at a faster rate than 1/2 C, so for general charging, those are the guidelines I would go by. Fortunately they overlap.

Just picked up the C9000, 16 more AAAs, and 32 more AAs. Still not enough. The more Eneloops I get, the more electronics I seem to have that need them. Funny how that works.

Bottom line is that I find Eneloops to be very capable cells that don't need to be coerced into functioning properly like some of the other NiMHs seem to require.


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## mouse07410 (Sep 26, 2011)

@Wrend, if the batteries are sitting in a flashlight (TK-40) that has a tendency to slowly drain them even when turned off - would you discharge them every say 3 months? Or just do a normal charge when the flashlight stops working (as I mentioned in a different post in a different thread - this flashlight is used mostly for emergencies)?

Thanks!


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## mouse07410 (Sep 26, 2011)

@Wrend, if the batteries are sitting in a flashlight (TK-40) that has a tendency to slowly drain them even when turned off - would you discharge them every say 3 months? Or just do a normal charge when the flashlight stops working (as I mentioned in a different post in a different thread - this flashlight is used mostly for emergencies)?

Thanks!


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## bruintennis (Jan 13, 2012)

Excellent and informative thread. I appreciate all the questions and detailed answers.


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## shelm (Jan 13, 2012)

mrlysle said:


> All of my Eneloops have come out OVER their rated capacity after a break in cycle! The AA's all show over 2000 mah, and my AAA's all show over 800 mah. For instance, the last break in I run on a package of AA's gave me 2088, 2076, 2055, and 2073 mah. BTW, these were "brand new" "never used" Eneloops.



break-in is good to establish a personal baseline to compare 1 Eneloop particular cell's state at different dates (Jan 2011, Jan 2012, ..). more useful for actual capacity measurements is the Refresh&Analyze, i think! i charge and discharge Eneloop AA's with 500mA, which is not too slow and not too fast. It's rather slow imho. The official eneloop charger have a higher charging speed, and the Sanyo recommended charge rate is indeed 1000mA (see the specs PDF on the eneloop homepage).

The 2011 manual (©1993-2011 Maha Energy Corp.) comments like this:


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## 45/70 (Jan 13, 2012)

Hi shelm. I agree with you that for "actual" capacity measurement, the R&A mode is the most useful. This works best for calculating how long cells will last in a particular application, for example.

For testing cells of different batches, ages, or from different manufacturers and such however, the "Break-In" mode is more suitable. The Break-In mode more closely follows the IEC standard which was used when determining the capacity of the cell, ie. a 0.1C charge for 16hrs followed by a 2 hr rest, and then discharged at a 0.2C rate to determine the labeled capacity.

Dave


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## Wrend (Jan 13, 2012)

I wouldn't say "actual" capacity as much as "effective" capacity _at that rate_, but I suppose that's what you meant.

And as you pointed out, Dave, the reason to use the break-in function to test capacity is to use a standardized test to measure capacity and compare against. In this sense, it more accurately reflects their actual capacity. However, 2088, 2076, 2055, and 2073mAh seem unusually high capacity results for Eneloop AAs on a "Break-In" test to me.

The effective capacity of Eneloop AAs in my Futaba 6EX transmitter is over 2100mAh, and that transmitter has a run time of over twelve and a half hours on Eneloops, while their "Break-In" test capacity was about 1970mAh.


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## shelm (Jan 17, 2012)

Question: Which is the optimal voltage an Eneloop should have when taken out freshly from the/any charger? (Voltage can be measured with DMM offline, and is also indicated by Powerex during the trickle-charge while it says "DONE": we can be observing an increase of voltage from 1.45V to 1.xxV during the "DONE"-indication)


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## jayflash (Jan 17, 2012)

Wrend said:


> I wouldn't say "actual" capacity as much as "effective" capacity _at that rate_, but I suppose that's what you meant.
> 
> The method I use to weed out weaklings and provide an "honest" capacity, is to fully charge LSD cells and let them sit for about one month or more. Then I'll discharge them at .5A (.25C) or 1.0A (.5C) to determine what capacity will be for the loads they're actually used for. My "Duraloops" indicate ~1900mAh for either load.


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## shelm (Jan 17, 2012)

jayflash said:


> Wrend said:
> 
> 
> > .5A (2.5C)
> ...


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## Wrend (Jan 17, 2012)

Ah, yes. Thanks for pointing out my decimal mishap. Edit: Actually, it wasn't me. (Forgot what all I've posted throughout this thread.)

Full recently off the charger resting voltage is about 1.47. Full float charge (if you will) is about 1.5V. This is as measured on the C9000 display.


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## jayflash (Jan 17, 2012)

Actually, that was my error. I meant to post .25C for a .5A discharge rate. Thanks for the correction.


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## SilverFox (Jan 17, 2012)

Hello Shelm,



shelm said:


> Question: Which is the optimal voltage an Eneloop should have when taken out freshly from the/any charger? (Voltage can be measured with DMM offline, and is also indicated by Powerex during the trickle-charge while it says "DONE": we can be observing an increase of voltage from 1.45V to 1.xxV during the "DONE"-indication)




There is no "optimum" voltage for charging NiMh cells. The end of charge is signaled by a change in the chemical reaction within the cell. The voltage ends up at what ever value it is. 

Usually the voltage at the end of a charge is in the 1.4 - 1.7 volt range.

Tom


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## shelm (Jan 17, 2012)

Hey Tom, thanks for the explanation! In any case it's interesting to see that the voltage rises on the C9000 display (e.g. 1.45V"DONE" to 1.52V"DONE") and then again drops down to stabilize at 1.46 or 1.47V"DONE".

if we use look-up graphs for Eneloops (a product which is well known and measured in the inet community i guess) the offline voltage would be an indicator of the remaining effective capacity, wouldnt it? Maybe not very accurate, of course.. because each cell is individual and no chart or graph can be valid for all Eneloops, accurately.


Wrend said:


> Full recently off the charger resting voltage is about 1.47. Full float charge (if you will) is about 1.5V.


i dont know what float charge is but i do get the 1.47V if i leave the Eneloops in the C9000 for hours after the "DONE" is displayed for the first time.


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## Mr Happy (Jan 17, 2012)

shelm said:


> if we use look-up graphs for Eneloops (a product which is well known and measured in the inet community i guess) the offline voltage would be an indicator of the remaining effective capacity, wouldnt it?



This doesn't work, because the voltage is a function of time since charging as well as capacity. For instance an eneloop might come off the charger at 1.47 V, but leave it a while and it will be down to 1.43 V, leave it a day or so and it will be 1.38 V, leave it a week or three and it will be 1.33 V. All of these voltages are "fully charged".

The best you can do with an eneloop is to say 1.33 V or higher is full, 1.28 V or so is half full, 1.20 V is empty.


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## shelm (Jan 17, 2012)

Mr Happy said:


> The best you can do with an eneloop is to say 1.33 V or higher is full, 1.28 V or so is half full, 1.20 V is empty.


That's something i can work with, thanks!
( and it's something that isnt too hard to memorize )


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## Wrend (Jan 18, 2012)

Nice big post trying to help explain a lot of things lost. Should have copied it before submitting. :thumbsdow

Sorry, but I don't have the patience and time to retype it all. This post is just in acknowledgment of CPF's unfortunate unreliable tendencies.


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## shelm (Jan 18, 2012)

my sympathies Wrend!!


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## budynabuick (Jan 19, 2012)

OK, now that we have ALL THAT out of the way. what is the best charge rate for eneloops?




JUST KIDDING LOL


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## shelm (Jan 20, 2012)

_En quoi_ does it make a difference whether we discharge an Eneloop AA (nominal capacity 2000 mAh) with 1000 mA (0.5C), 800 mA (0.4C), or 500 mA (0.25C) in the Powerex, apart from the total processing time?

Is there any optimal or recommended or "heathiest" discharge rate or rule of thumb for Eneloop AA's?

i am thinking that 1.0Ampère is quite a lot of current for an AA cell if it was an Alkaline.


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## Wrend (Jan 20, 2012)

I think the C9000 uses a pulsed discharge, so it's more of an average discharge.

But that aside, a slower discharge rate will discharge more of the cell and result in a higher capacity measurement. The C9000 only discharges to 0.9V per cell, so discharging them somewhat more deeply in this sense won't hurt them.

Before I break-in my new Eneloop cells, I discharge them at 100mA so that they are more deeply discharged and not overcharged as much during the break-in process.

Discharging at fast rates does add a little more wear on the cells, but probably not much at the rates we're talking about.

...

Anyway, wanted to get back to you about float charging. Basically, it holds a constant voltage that's just high enough to keep the cells from discharging at all without overcharging them, or at least applying a slow enough current rate to accomplish the same thing.

Of course with cells like Eneloops that self discharge so slowly, there isn't any need to float charge them.

About the voltage dropping after charge, you can think of it as the charged capacity settling down into somewhat less reactive stored capacity.


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## shelm (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks for the info, greatly appreciated!! The float charging concept is interesting too..
Wow, you discharge (before the break-in) with 100mA. That is very slow 
The C9000 manual suggests that we should discharge at half the charge rate; it seems to be *its* internal rule of thumb. If i charge with 800mA, i should discharge at 400mA (which is by chance the discharge rate during a break-in cycle). Wow, that sounds too safe, too conservative. Time is money!! just kidding ;=)

i guess i will stick with my 400mA (charge rate = discharge rate) for AAA Eneloops and 800mA for AA Eneloops. For simplicity, symmetry, and for time saving purposes. My lights draw much current from the cells anyway, so *that* would put wear on the cells more than the rare Refresh&Analyze procedure.

Charging and discharging Eneloops optimally .. almost a science!


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## Wrend (Jan 20, 2012)

Time isn't really an issue for me since I have enough cells to use for most every day things.

I also think that more deeply discharging them can help refresh them a little.

Either way, it definitely isn't vital to discharge them that slowly. I just can, so I figure I might as well.


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## Mr Happy (Jan 20, 2012)

shelm said:


> i am thinking that 1.0Ampère is quite a lot of current for an AA cell if it was an Alkaline.



It is for an alkaline, but it's really no problem for an eneloop. Eneloop AA cells can go up to 2 or 3 amps discharge rate quite comfortably.


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## shelm (Jan 21, 2012)

ok, you guys have suggested to discharge them slowly and i remember that SilverFox was the first to recommend a slow discharge rate. My intention is to use a discharge rate other than the break-in's discharge rate of 0.2C and to use a discharge rate which is likely to be encountered in my applications, i.e. Cree LED flashlights. so now i have determined the final settings for my Eneloops and Powerex ( they should be good i think ):

Eneloop AA [email protected]*800mA*, [email protected]*-600mA*
Eneloop AAA [email protected]*400mA*, [email protected]*-300mA*

These carefully yet arbitrarily chosen numbers reflect my considerations:

choose a not too high charge rate in order to avoid unnecessary heat production (cell's aging) (1.0A is fine, but please not more than this!)
choose a not too slow charge rate but something around ~0.5C, which is as mentioned, fine. also, time is money.
choose a discharge rate smaller than the charge rate to spare the cell's aging and for slightly deeper Powerex discharge
choose a discharge rate close to the average real-life rate in my applications (flashlights) to get _effective _capacities displayed in Powerex
choose a discharge rate higher than the 0.2C of the break-in in order to make it different from it


i hope you agree more or less..


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## Mr Happy (Jan 21, 2012)

shelm said:


> i hope you agree more or less..



Your logic seems entirely reasonable.


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## Wrend (Jan 21, 2012)

Yes, should be fine.

It isn't an issue at all, but just curious though, why only double the rates for the AAs when they have nearly two and a half times the capacity of the AAAs? Your AA lights have a drain rate around 600mA?


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## Mr Happy (Jan 21, 2012)

Wrend said:


> It isn't an issue at all, but just curious though, why only double the rates for the AAs when they have nearly two and a half times the capacity of the AAAs?



It's the other way round. The AAA cells have a higher charge rate because termination is less reliable on the smaller AAA cells. Using a slightly higher charge rate (400 mA or more) helps to mitigate this problem. I would even suggest 500 mA is reasonable for AAA cells.

(Edit: See this thread where I modified the Duracell CEF-21 to charge AAA cells at 400 mA instead of 175 mA for exactly this reason. It works much better at 400 mA.)


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## Wrend (Jan 21, 2012)

Fair enough, and at those lower AAA rates there is less room for as accurate proportional adjustment too.


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## jayflash (Jan 21, 2012)

Wrend said:


> Nice big post trying to help explain a lot of things lost. Should have copied it before submitting. :thumbsdow
> 
> Sorry, but I don't have the patience and time to retype it all. This post is just in acknowledgment of CPF's unfortunate unreliable tendencies.



A trick to prevent this was posted some time ago and so far it works for me and I use it because the CPF has always been unreliable in this manner. The CPF operators and members are the BEST, so I guess we can't have it all.

Try this: After typing and before sending press Ctrl A & Ctrl C. Pressing Ctrl V should restore a lost post. I hope this works for you because it seems easier than using Word for protection.


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## shelm (Jan 21, 2012)

--"why only double the rates for the AAs when they have 2.5x the capacity of the AAAs? Your AA lights have a drain rate around 600mA?"--

re Eneloop AA's, our calculation would be (if we agree that 400 charge is high enough for AAA-sized cells and 300 discharge is a realistic discharge rate in AAA-lights on High-mode):
2.5 * 400 = 1000
2.5 * 300 = 750

that's a ratio of 300/400 = 0.75

good question. if i wanted consistency in my choice of rates, i should choose 1.0A for charge and 750mA for discharge, so i have to round up (800mA discharge) or down (700mA discharge). but in both cases we would agree that these are high numbers. SilverFox's suggestion was a safe 500mA discharge (=0.25C), which would lead to (500/0.75 =) 666.67mA charge, or rounded 700.

lol.

so we get to pick from 800/600 (ratio 0.75), or the safer 700/500 (ratio 0.71), or what most ppl do (the Powerex default) 1000/500 (ratio 0.5; very slow and safe).

lol again. my pick is rather arbitrary. but Mr Happy made a good point which i hadnt thought about, thanks!
And yep, on High-mode my Xeno E03 easily drains it with 350mA  (well, .. i am just thinking that 600mA discharge rate is low enough.. "time is money"  )


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## TakeTheActive (Jan 21, 2012)

*Double Post When vBulletin 'Hung'...*

+++++


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## TakeTheActive (Jan 21, 2012)

*Periodically Saving Your Work (i.e. During a *LONG* Reply)...*



jayflash said:


> A trick to prevent this was posted some time ago and so far it works for me...
> 
> ...Try this: After typing and before sending press Ctrl A & Ctrl C. Pressing Ctrl V should restore a lost post...


I go one step further - I always keep a 'Dummy' Notepad .TXT file open. Before each Preview or Submit, I'll Ctrl-A (Select All), Ctrl-C (Copy), Ctrl-V (Paste) into Notepad any reply that I've spent more than a few minutes composing. I separate multiple revisions / documents by alternating '=====' and '+++++' in between. Once the post has been successfully Submitted, I delete the 'Back Ups'. For the short replies, I always do what *jayflash* posted, skipping the Notepad step - just in case. 

Also, if a Preview or Submit is taking more than a few seconds, it's probably 'Hung'. A Ctrl-F5 will FORCE a refresh and you might see your latest revision again.

If that too fails, the browser 'Page Back' button may return you to an earlier Preview - at least you'll only have to re-type the last revision.

Too many forums randomly lock up during Preview or Submit. 

BTW, this latest version of vBulletin v4.1.7 keeps flashing 'Auto-Saved' in the bottom right corner of this 'Reply' Box. Where is it 'Auto-Saved' to and how can I retrieve it?


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## TakeTheActive (Jan 21, 2012)

shelm said:


> ...*if i wanted consistency in my choice of rates, i should choose 1.0A for charge and 750mA for discharge*...


If you want consistency, you'll use 0.2C for Discharge - the same rate as BREAK-IN. That way *ALL* of your Discharge Capacities are 'comparable' to one another. If BREAK-IN uses 0.2C (400mA for a 2000mAh AA) and you use 0.4C (800mA for a 2000mAh AA), you can't compare the Capacities - 0.4C will be lower, especially as the cells age and their Internal Resistance rises.

I don't remember if it was in this thread, or another one of the SEVERAL currently active 'Charge Rate' threads that I read this afternoon, but I follow a practice similar to *Wrend's* for BREAK-INs, periodically before REFRESHING LSD NiMH cells and *ALWAYS* before REFRESHING non-LSD NiMH cells. After Discharging them @ 0.2C, I Discharge them further @ 100mA in my BC-900. Since the MH-C9000 is a 'pulsed' 1000mA and the BC-900 is a 'pulsed' 500mA, I can usually get another ~50-100mAh out of the cell. While some folks don't 'Give-a-Hoot' about numbering, record keeping, matching cells, it appears that *Wrend's* attitude is similar to mine - it's become an interesting hobby. I still have a couple of GE 'Black & White' NiCDs from the 80s in service, along with several Rayovac 1300mAh and 1600mAh non-LSD NiMHs from ~2000 - some @ 75-80% of Capacity, while others with HIGH Internal Resistance power clocks, thermometers, remotes, etc... Alkaline leaks are such a PITA to clean up!

IMO, you're OVER COMPLICATING the process - there are guidelines, but not 'Hard-and-Fast' rules:
If you want to be able to compare Discharge Capacities, use the same Discharge Rate.
The higher the Rate, the lower the Capacity, especially as the cell ages.
.
If you want to Charge faster, raise the current. If the cell gets too hot, lower the current. If the cell then doesn't terminate properly, recycle it. By then, the ICV should be over 2.00VDC anyway. You can CLICK on my Sig Line LINK to read about ICV - a *VERY* important parameter, IMHO, to track.
There's a *VERY* interesting article by *jtr1962* (in my FAQ) that discusses Charge Rate - give it a read.


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## shelm (Jan 21, 2012)

TakeTheActive said:


> (in my FAQ) that discusses Charge Rate - give it a read.


Thanks, will do so! Looks like real science wow.. 


TakeTheActive said:


> _00659 Views - 02/06/2009 @ 20:09 (STICKY'd!)_


is it sticky'd, still? i dont see it sticky'd.


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## TakeTheActive (Jan 21, 2012)

*Give Me ONE STICKY, Vasily.. One STICKY Only, Please...*



shelm said:


> ...is it sticky'd, still? i dont see it sticky'd.


From its creation on 12/31/2008 until 02/05/2009, it was just in my Sig Line. On 02/06/2009, it was added to the "Threads of Interest" STICKY. The policy on THIS forum is *ONE* STICKY, containing the LINKs to what on other forums would have been a PAGEFUL of STICKYs.


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## shelm (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: Give Me ONE STICKY, Vasily.. One STICKY Only, Please...*

i prefer PAGEFUL of STICKYs 

( thx, found it in the ONE STICKY! Immense work you did, hats off!! )


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## shelm (Jan 22, 2012)

*Re: Give Me ONE STICKY, Vasily.. One STICKY Only, Please...*

wondering...
is it really necessary or desirable to discharge the Eneloops *before* we do the break-in?

the C9000 PDF-manual doesnt suggest any such action, and otherwise it would have been included in the whole break-in procedure itself, i guess. or asked this: does it really harm an Eneloop AA if it is fully charged (like mine, after the Refresh&Analyze, 1.46V) *and* i start the break-in already without prior discharging (at any chosen discharge rate, e.g. 100mA, 400mA (0.2C), 500mA (most common), or 600mA (time is money))?

Most of the common questions (as asked by myself) are addressed in the Powerex online FAQ's (very helpful):
http://www.mahaenergy.com/store/mhc9000faq.asp

I am discharging (prior to break-in) now with 600mA (the FAQ's recommend 500mA, i.e. 0.25C), but from now on i will simply follow the official recommendation so that i get results better for comparison (because most choose use the default recommended values, i guess):

charge with 0.5C, discharge with 0.25C, i.e.
Eneloop AA: charge 1.0A, discharge 500mA (SilverFox)
Eneloop AAA: charge 400mA, discharge 200mA (ouch, that is slow!)


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## Wrend (Jan 22, 2012)

*Re: Give Me ONE STICKY, Vasily.. One STICKY Only, Please...*

The break-in does a timed full charge, so if the cells are still mostly full, they're just getting a slow overcharge. At that rate it isn't so bad for them, but since it can be avoided, that seems like the best practice to follow.

Also, it may not have been designed for the low self discharge type cells. Typical NiMH cells are more or less "dead" on arrival.


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## tobrien (Jan 22, 2012)

so I'm so confused now thanks to this thread haha

straight and to the point, at what rates should I charge my:
1. 800 mAh AAA 1500 Eneloops (white label with crown)
2. 2000 mAh AA 1500 Eneloops (white label with crown)

or does rate even really matter to a layperson? I don't need to juice every last penny out of my Eneloops, but all the talk in this thread has me so confused.


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## Mr Happy (Jan 22, 2012)

tobrien said:


> straight and to the point, at what rates should I charge my:
> 1. 800 mAh AAA 1500 Eneloops (white label with crown)
> 2. 2000 mAh AA 1500 Eneloops (white label with crown)



What charger do you have?


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## SilverFox (Jan 23, 2012)

Hello Tobrien,

Straight and to the point...

AAA, charge at 400 mA
AA, charge at 1000 mA.

Tom


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## shelm (Jan 23, 2012)

tobrien said:


> straight and to the point, at what rates should I charge my:
> 1. 800 mAh AAA 1500 Eneloops (white label with crown)
> 2. 2000 mAh AA 1500 Eneloops (white label with crown)









it's the same what SilverFox had ever been suggesting ( so why is this thread so long?  )


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## bruintennis (Feb 6, 2012)

I'm doing refresh/analyze and break-in on my new 1500 eneloops (AA). I used the charge/discharge rates I found from this thread and double checked what you guys recommended with the C9000 instructions. I'll post my results when finished. Cheers!


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## "J" man (Nov 14, 2012)

Crap, I was discharging my Eneloop AAA batteries at 500mah instead of 200mah before reading this thread. I just used the Maha MH-C9000 default setting which was 500mah. Did I cause some damage to the AAAs? I only did it a few times, will I see much less cycles because of this?


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## passive101 (Nov 14, 2012)

I have a La Crosse BC 700 charger and can discharge and then it will charge at 2x the discharge rate only. They recommend 200 or 250 mah charging rates or I can do 350 mah discharge I think and then 500mah charge. Is this bad?


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## Shadowww (Nov 15, 2012)

"J" man said:


> Crap, I was discharging my Eneloop AAA batteries at 500mah instead of 200mah before reading this thread. I just used the Maha MH-C9000 default setting which was 500mah. Did I cause some damage to the AAAs? I only did it a few times, will I see much less cycles because of this?


It's 500mA and 200mA, not 500mAh/200mAh (those are measurement units for capacity, not current).
500mA is just fine for AAA's, in fact, even 1A is fine for decent AAA's (e.g. Eneloops).


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## TakeTheActive (Nov 17, 2012)

*Read the FAQs, Mam... Just the FAQs  | New Forum Software *BROKEN*!*

*TESTING: * (using forum icons vs manually entering the *EXACT SAME* information)

asdf
qwer
zxcv



SilverFox said:


> Hello Tobrien,
> 
> Straight and to the point...
> 
> ...





"J" man said:


> Crap, I was discharging my Eneloop AAA batteries at 500mah instead of 200mah before reading this thread. I just used the Maha MH-C9000 default setting which was 500mah. Did I cause some damage to the AAAs? I only did it a few times, will I see much less cycles because of this?





passive101 said:


> I have a La Crosse BC 700 charger and can discharge and then it will charge at 2x the discharge rate only. They recommend 200 or 250 mah charging rates or I can do 350 mah discharge I think and then 500mah charge. Is this bad?





Shadowww said:


> It's 500mA and 200mA, not 500mAh/200mAh (those are measurement units for capacity, not current).
> 500mA is just fine for AAA's, in fact, even 1A is fine for decent AAA's (e.g. Eneloops).



__________________________________________________​




SilverFox said:


> Hello Tobrien,
> 
> Straight and to the point...
> 
> ...


.



"J" man said:


> Crap, I was discharging my Eneloop AAA batteries at 500mah instead of 200mah before reading this thread. I just used the Maha MH-C9000 default setting which was 500mah. Did I cause some damage to the AAAs? I only did it a few times, will I see much less cycles because of this?


.



passive101 said:


> I have a La Crosse BC 700 charger and can discharge and then it will charge at 2x the discharge rate only. They recommend 200 or 250 mah charging rates or I can do 350 mah discharge I think and then 500mah charge. Is this bad?


.



Shadowww said:


> It's 500mA and 200mA, not 500mAh/200mAh (those are measurement units for capacity, not current).
> 500mA is just fine for AAA's, in fact, even 1A is fine for decent AAA's (e.g. Eneloops).





(Hopefully  ) *EVERYTHING* a Newbie needs to know about NiCDs or NiMHs is in my *GREEN Sig Link* (and also in the STICKY on the top of this Index Page):

*Charge @ 0.5C:*
1000mA for AA
400mA for AAA

*Discharge @ 0.2C*
400mA for AA
160mA for AAA


*NOTE TO CURRENT FORUM SOFTWARE AUTHOR(s): *
.

*WHY* doesn't my post format correctly, as it did in the PREVIOUS Forum Software?
.
Is this a *BUG* or did I do something INCORRECTLY?
.
How do I MULTI-QUOTE Multiple Posts and post them in a NUMBERED LIST?

Thanks!


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## "J" man (Nov 18, 2012)

Shadowww said:


> It's 500mA and 200mA, not 500mAh/200mAh (those are measurement units for capacity, not current).
> 500mA is just fine for AAA's, in fact, even 1A is fine for decent AAA's (e.g. Eneloops).



Thanks for the correction. I checked capacity again, after another break in, and compared it to the original readings. It doesn't look like I lost any capacity because of this.


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## Wrend (Nov 19, 2012)

Yeah, they should be fine. No worries. It isn't like you charged them and then left them shorted, or something. Eneloops can handle that rate in stride. It just likely isn't ideal for them, and doesn't cycle them as fully.


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## Planz (Nov 27, 2012)

Hi, can someone help me with this question.

In the Maha FAQ, it says "_In the REFRESH & ANALYZE and BREAK-IN mode, the final capacity displayed is the discharging capacity. _The battery have also been recharged after the discharge."

My question is for Refresh and Analyse, after the battery has been recharged after the discharge, just before DONE, the mAH shoud still be the charging capacity correct? Does it mean that the 'final capacity' as quoted from MAHA's FAQ means there is a step change in mAH from just before DONE to just after DONE? Or is it the case that the MAHA charger simply retrive the discharge capacity from the discharge cycle and display it after the DONE? I find it not so easy to follow the manual.


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## Yamabushi (Nov 27, 2012)

Planz said:


> Or is it the case that the MAHA charger simply retrive the discharge capacity from the discharge cycle and display it after the DONE?



Yes


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## troelskc (Nov 27, 2012)

Hi! Just started to read this thread of interest, but it has sooo many pages. 

Could someone make a round-up on this topic?


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## Planz (Nov 27, 2012)

Yamabushi said:


> Yes



Thank you!


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## tobrien (Nov 27, 2012)

*Re: Read the FAQs, Mam... Just the FAQs  | New Forum Software *BROKEN*!*



TakeTheActive said:


> *NOTE TO CURRENT FORUM SOFTWARE AUTHOR(s): *
> .
> 
> *WHY* doesn't my post format correctly, as it did in the PREVIOUS Forum Software?
> ...


CPF doesn't make vbulletin. You can't number quotes unfortunately.


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## NeoLoop (Oct 30, 2013)

I have 4 pc new eneloop AAA New 3 Generation (1800 cycle), The date printed on this cell is 12 11 00, is that mean 12 Nov 2000 ?? :shrug: 
Yesterday i had discharging all of them with 200 mAh, here is the result :

Slot 1: 486 mAh, 162 Min, 1.17 Volt = 60.8% of capacity

Slot 2: 515 mAh, 171 Min, 1.13 Volt = 64.38% of capacity

Slot 3: 511 mAh, 169 Min, 1.15 Volt = 63.88 % of capacity

Slot 4: 497 mAh, 165 Min, 1.16 Volt = 62.12 % of capacity

all capacity is below 70-75% than Eneloop claims since I open from a packing, now.. "Break In" in progress, i will post the result when is done


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## NeoLoop (Oct 30, 2013)

2 Day ago i run Break in Cycle, but unfortunately when step Discharging the power shutdown and the setting back to default n start charging for a minutes in 1000 mAh, so i must restart again, discharging again with rate 200 mAh 

Here is my spreadsheet, 
*
Discharging 200 mAh
*
Slot 1: 751 mAh, 249 Min, 1.17 Volt 

Slot 2: 757 mAh, 251 Min, 1.17 Volt 

Slot 3: 760 mAh, 252 Min, 1.17 Volt 

Slot 4: 764 mAh, 253 Min, 1.17 Volt 

After rest about for 4 hours, I start ran Break in cycle again, and here is the partial result after discharging before run final 16 hours 

*After Discharging BIC 160 mAh (partial result)
*
Slot 1: 798 mAh, 329 Min, 

Slot 2: 794 mAh, 330 Min, 

Slot 3: 804 mAh, 332 Min, 

Slot 4: 810 mAh, 334 Min, 

now is run for the last 16 hours charging... n I will back with final result


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## NeoLoop (Nov 2, 2013)

Here is 
*
Final result BIC 

*Slot 1: 798 mAh 

Slot 2: 794 mAh 

Slot 3: 804 mAh

Slot 4: 810 mAh

This not any different with partial result after discharging, should i run second BIC ? can BIC 2 improvement their capacity AAA ?


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## SilverFox (Nov 3, 2013)

Hello NeoLoop,

Welcome to CPF.

While you may see a very slight increase in capacity by doing another break in cycle, most of us feel that it is not worth the time and effort to do so. Use your cells and enjoy them.

Tom


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## NeoLoop (Nov 5, 2013)

hi :wave: SilverFox,
Yeaa... nice to know CPF:welcome:, 
After run BIC 1, I decide to use them for discharge it before run BIC2.
Yes, I know, its need more effort & time to run BIC2, but I want to know & make sure by personal, is that true that can increase capacity ? 

Here is the partial result after discharging before run final 16 hours. 

*After Discharging BIC 2 : 

*Slot 1: 795 mAh, 329 Min, 

Slot 2: 793 mAh, 330 Min, 

Slot 3: 800 mAh, 331 Min, 

Slot 4: 806 mAh, 335 Min,

Curious I see that result, not increase but decrease :ironic:, I found that my BIC 1 after discharging give a few more mAh although not significant, Or is there something that I miss ? Or maybe caused I did not discharging manually at rate 200 mAh ?

Well look this result, I think it will be the alpha & Omega , I dont want to do this again in the future when I got new cells. 



SilverFox said:


> ...._it is *not* *worth the time* and *effort* to do so. __Use your cells and enjoy them__._



Yes, Bro Tom, I absolutely agree with you


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## SilverFox (Nov 5, 2013)

Hello NeoLoop,

When I look at your results I see that during the first break in you got around 800 mAh for capacity. When you ran the second break in you also got around 800 mAh...

Keep in mind that the C9000 while a very good charger is not a piece of laboratory equipment. 

Tom


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## braddy (Nov 5, 2013)

I just recently got my C9000 and am surprised that my Tenergy AAAs, that I thought that I had been abusing for the last two years or so, seem in such great shape.


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## austinios (Nov 7, 2013)

Maybe folks shouldnt be overly concerned about charging/discharging and care for their batteries. They are not tofu. The good ones will last and the bad ones just don't. The moment products like C9000 gives the user the means to read off the various charge parameters, people get very scientific. I would say enjoy the good batteries together with the good chargers. When you "feel" your batteries aren't too right during usage, do the due diligence in giving it a nice boost. There is no joy in getting concerned each time you slot the battery into the charger and start to figure if it is ok or not, what current to charge it this time round, and if it is really "fully charged" as indicated ... hahaha ...


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## braddy (Nov 7, 2013)

I think that we can assume that the vast majority of members of a flashlight forum, would be a little compulsive and detail oriented, even technology oriented.


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## markr6 (Nov 7, 2013)

austinios said:


> Maybe folks shouldnt be overly concerned about charging/discharging and care for their batteries. They are not tofu. The good ones will last and the bad ones just don't. The moment products like C9000 gives the user the means to read off the various charge parameters, people get very scientific. I would say enjoy the good batteries together with the good chargers. When you "feel" your batteries aren't too right during usage, do the due diligence in giving it a nice boost. There is no joy in getting concerned each time you slot the battery into the charger and start to figure if it is ok or not, what current to charge it this time round, and if it is really "fully charged" as indicated ... hahaha ...



Exactly! Use 'em and abuse 'em. We overthink some things.

If Eneloops were $50/pack, then I think we would need to scrutinize every little detail.


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## austinios (Nov 7, 2013)

Sure, by all means. Just wanted to remind folks to not forget to enjoy instead of getting too immersed in the "scientific dimension" 

I am guilty of this many a time.


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## austinios (Nov 7, 2013)

Oh ... you would probably already break even after 30-40 recharge and use, that's estimated based of 4Eneloops + a charger priced in the region of the Mahas compared to energizer/alkalines. If just considering rechargeable batteries alone, that's like 7-10 times before break even. Not forgetting that with batteries like Eneloops and Powerex, the batteries can last longer than the alkalines. 

NiMHs have shelf lives. Expect them to degrade a little after a few years, regardless if you have charged them only once or 1000times. By then your return on investment is already attained, if not exceeded, no need to bother about stretching that dollar so much more at the cost of getting frustrated reviving those batteries. That's usually time for another fresh set of rechargeables and enjoy them again. 

On the other hand, do you really want to put recharegeables into ultra low consumption devices like simple alarm clocks and remote controls that you would probably only replace batteries once or twice a year? This is where wastage is minimal and you might waste more in deploying rechargeables for such purposes.


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## braddy (Nov 8, 2013)

I switched to rechargeables because of leak damage in my electronics, but I have also enjoyed adapting to not being conscious of usage, or the cost of using up batteries, and I like the better performance of NiMH.


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