# U.S military orders $31,250,000 worth of flashlights etc.



## NWdude83 (Nov 4, 2009)

> Phantom Products, Inc., Rockledge, Fla.* is being awarded a maximum $31,250,000 fixed price with economic price adjustment contract for flashlights, light kits, and transmitters. There are no other locations of performance. Using service are Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps. The proposal was through an open solicitation with 63 responses.


 

I've never heard of Phantom Products, has anybody? Maybe they are just really phantom about things lol.


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## divine (Nov 4, 2009)

http://www.phantomlights.com/



> Why can't the enemy see me with their NVGs?
> A normal white or red filtered flashlight emits visible light. Unfortunately, it also emits infrared energy at an intensity 20 times greater than the visible light. To our soldier using a normal white or red flashlight, the infrared portion is of no use because it does not improve his ability to see. To the enemy wearing his NVGs, the infrared light coming from the filtered light is a substantial benefit. It allows him to locate our soldier easily because infrared light is primarily what the NVGs pick up. The Phantom white® light is a special blend of colors that radiates only visible light---NO INFRARED. Therefore, the Phantom white light does not project the type of energy that the NVGs easily detect. Furthermore, the Phantom has a special hood that directs the visible light only in the required location.



:thinking:

This doesn't appear to be too groundbreaking, but what do I know?


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## ryball (Nov 4, 2009)

So it's low IR signature white light?


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 4, 2009)

“Be a Phantom Warrior® or become a TARGET!®” bahahahahahaha this is what happens when congress doesn't hire a subject matter expert to explore what is out there but instead gives the contract to their cousin/brother/other relative...looks like a chinsy half-arsed site i bet we see corruption charges filed on this eventually


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## DimeRazorback (Nov 4, 2009)

I don't see what is so good about those lights :shrug:


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 4, 2009)

they use LEDs i'm sure thats what gets rid of the infrared and the poor suckers at washington thought this was a new invention because they are mostly retarded....all in how you sell yourself....and apparently they did a good job


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## tsmith35 (Nov 4, 2009)

Text on the flashlight portion of the site says, "Phanton Warrior Flashlight 180 hour Mission Requires: 4- AA Alkaline Batteries and 1 shock proof bulb" and "Standard Right Angle Flashlight5 pounds of D cell batteries or Mini AA Flashlight --50 AA Batteries (Both use many bulbs!)"

So... I'm guessing LEDs with infrared filtering. They make a lot of other stuff, though.


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## LEDobsession (Nov 4, 2009)

I always thought the US Military would be all over surefire stuff......:shrug:


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## Size15's (Nov 4, 2009)

If you check out the website it shows a broad range of military products of which flashlights are small part. They make light kits for various task illumination and runway markers that can be operated (dimmed etc) using transmitters.
My guess is that the flashlights portion that a Flashaholic would sniff at is quite a small proportion of the overall cost of the contract compared to the far more specialist products.


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## baterija (Nov 4, 2009)

I've looked at the site before. Not a great site but I thought it was a very interesting light. I almost but didn't put the effort into registering so I could at least see pricing. Both a red filtered white LED and the non-filtered white LED's have a distinct signature to typical night vision systems so there is something more just using an LED compared to an incan at work. If it performs anywhere close to the sites marketing pitch I don't know of any direct competitors.

Why haven't we heard about them more? Well most here can't even register with the website to see pricing details. :nana: It sounds like they probably have a good chunk of their business in non-flashlight based lighting modules for tactical vehicles and aircraft as well. Hard to say what chunk of the contract is for those systems versus handheld flashlights.


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 4, 2009)

from their website "It permits the operator to remotely dim the lights remotely when full intensity would create hazardous conditions." thats under redundancy department...but it does look like they cater to very specific needs..like battery operated TOC lighting based on the every present singars batteries as the power source...thats a pretty tight niche to fill but i guess its 32,000,000 worth of niche


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## choaticwhisper (Nov 4, 2009)

I've seen a few of their products*
**Phantom Cockpit / Vehicular Light = *Dim cheap bulbs and has a blue filter mounted inside. Maybe an older version, Didnt look just like the pic. 
Also seen a LED light bar. 
All the flashlights Ive seen come out are the fulton angle lights.


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## lebox97 (Nov 4, 2009)

hmmm, I'll have to drop by for a visit - 
I am 2 miles away from them, drive by their office just about every day, and I've never heard of 'em! :thinking:


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## Search (Nov 4, 2009)

Even LEDs emit low levels of IR. It's not as much as incans for instance, but it's there. It's just not useable with NVGs.

I remember a company who had a way of eliminating almost all the IR radiation from their LEDs. Don't remember who, but their website gave much more technical information than these guys.


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 4, 2009)

i just don't get what the NVG hype is about, our enemies right now don't really have/use NVG at all, so if you hide all your infrared signature, the only people you are hiding from are friendlies...our uniforms even have IR tabs and identifiers all over them...so the idea is to definitely emit IR so everyone good knows exactly where you are....


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## Mr_Black (Nov 5, 2009)

Wow, that brings back memories. I almost forgot that I had one of those flashlights. I got issued one when I first got to my Guard unit back in 2001 or 2002. I don't have the original manual so I don't have all of the specs but I think I remember it being the medic version that has a blue LED (in addition to the white LED) for doing eye exams. I don't think I ever used it in the field and it's been sitting in my basement for years. I remember being unimpressed by the light and ended up picking up a SureFire Z2 before I got deployed.


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## Linger (Nov 5, 2009)

Mr_Black said:


> I remember being unimpressed by the light and ended up picking up a SureFire Z2 before I got deployed.


Yeah, that'll be the problem. People will still be posting to CPF to send lights to soldiers deployed to whatever country is next because the phantom lights severely under perform. Be interesting to know if there is any gain here.

Wonder how they beat out the other 62 companies. I wonder if 4sevens will start bidding with a consortium for parts of these contracts...

*_edit - just checked out the site, disapointing.
_ *Dive Lights




top - get pricing* The macro blend cases are impact and temperature resistant, and salt water corrosion proof! They are 6.5 inches long and 1.25 inches in diameter--and last 1-3 years on a set of batteries! 
_Total non-flashaholic sales pitch here. Who among use wants a light that lasts 1-3 years on set of batteries? We'd all know the reason it lasts long is because it's not drawing much power and isn't bright at all._


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## cdosrun (Nov 5, 2009)

I can't find the thread at the moment (at work so only looking quickly) but I think it was either 'flying turtle' or 'subumbra' who was caught up Katrina and wrote about his experiences.

I recall that he reported the cyan coloured lights to be invisible to NVG, nothing to do with IR output. Perhaps these lights have switchable white/cyan LEDs.

EDIT: My apologies, I think it was Sub_umbra but I cannot find the thread. The light colour in question was turquoise. Memory is obviously failing!


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## RobertM (Nov 5, 2009)

Linger said:


> ...I wonder if 4sevens will start bidding with a consortium for parts of these contracts...



Not when his lights are made in China...


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## baterija (Nov 5, 2009)

SFG2Lman said:


> i just don't get what the NVG hype is about, our enemies right now don't really have/use NVG at all, so if you hide all your infrared signature, the only people you are hiding from are friendlies...our uniforms even have IR tabs and identifiers all over them...so the idea is to definitely emit IR so everyone good knows exactly where you are....



Don't tell the IDF that all the threats out there don't have night vision capabilities. Their experience against Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon in 2006 denies the "don't really have/use NVG at all" statement. Hezbollah did not field the density of night capable systems available to the IDF or US troops but did utilize a mix of systems. Some were civilian video cameras with limited but real capability. Some were military grade NVGs. They also fielded some thermal site capability with the launch units for the Russian built Kornet (NATO name AT-14 Spriggan). I know they also have Milan anti-tank missles but don't know if they had the thermal add on package available for the tracking unit. Like I said nowhere near the density of a more modern military force but if employed smartly they can still be put to good effect. In fact, according to the IDF, they were indeed put to good effect.

It might be important to note that the ACU was designed with the integrated glint tape made so that it could be hidden and any add on patches can be removed. It would have been simpler and cheaper to just sew the glint with no integral ability to hide it. They didn't pursue that route in the design. 



Linger said:


> _Total non-flashaholic sales pitch here. Who among use wants a light that lasts 1-3 years on set of batteries? We'd all know the reason it lasts long is because it's not drawing much power and isn't bright at all._



While I withhold judgement on the light's effectiveness in it's role not drawing much power is *exactly what I want*. Every military force fields the Mk1 night adapted eyeball as a night vision device. It's not a tactical light for the times you want to light up the world. It would seem to be best, and find it's niche, in the low-low world. Something that would give me better color rendition than a monochromatic cyan or red light/filter while reducing the NVG detectable signature as I check a map or some other critical but not tacticool task. (I assume they are whacking some of even the red/near red that even a cool LED has. That will make for bad color rendering but could be better than monochromatic.)

I will admit the flashlight, despite the *possible* innovation looks like it could stand with a good design. The UI is unclear and would be huge in my mind for it being a good fit to the role. The TOC lights and vehicle crew compartment lighting is more intriguing to me. TOC lighting doesn't usually have a big market draw with the mall ninja crowd. Most of those involved in the decision making on this probably spent time in TOCs though.


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## Lightraven (Nov 5, 2009)

SFG2Lman said:


> i just don't get what the NVG hype is about, our enemies right now don't really have/use NVG at all, so if you hide all your infrared signature, the only people you are hiding from are friendlies...our uniforms even have IR tabs and identifiers all over them...so the idea is to definitely emit IR so everyone good knows exactly where you are....



This isn't quite accurate. Foreign terrorists have limited NV capabilities, and so do U.S. and Mexico based criminals.

Training that I have received from a special forces vet contradicts the above statement regarding IR emissions. It is kept to a minimum, used when necessary, then turned off.


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 5, 2009)

"don't REALLY have" implied a limited version, i mean anyone with a cell-phone that has a camera has limited night vision capabilities (try it, shine your IR TV remote in the camera and you will see the flashing greenish light) I meant real NVG that would actually be powerful and useful enough to be able to detect flashlight IR (even though the flashlight is ON which seems to contradict hiding all together)


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## TMedina (Nov 5, 2009)

Which really won't make any difference to the average rank and file in any branch of the Service.

For that matter, I'm not even sure what exactly is supposed to be supplied - the bulk of it may be reserved for "special purposes."

-Trevor


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## skunked (Nov 6, 2009)

I though NVG were light intensifiers, not IR based?? The IR tabs are to reflect only IR ( the same as the optical brightners found in almost all laundry detergents, gets your whites whiter and your colors brighter you know) so there is no light source at all that will not show up like a nova on NVG.


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## kosPap (Nov 6, 2009)

cdosrun said:


> EDIT: My apologies, I think it was Sub_umbra but I cannot find the thread. The light colour in question was turquoise. Memory is obviously failing!


 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/121453

I also checked the info with some military dudes...the turqoise claim is valid..sorry, it is in Getoffthex, a closed forum and I cannot link to.


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## Lightraven (Nov 6, 2009)

Night vision devices broadly encompass two types--light intensification and thermal. That's a generalization.

Light intensifiers are the less expensive devices which amplify visible light AND some amount of infrared light. Most night vision goggles, monoculars and rifle telescopes work this way. They can be damaged by bright light. They come in three official generations (1, 2, 3) and a few unofficial generations (3+, 3A, 4 etc.)

Thermal devices are far more expensive and complex devices which only see infrared radiation and are blind to visible light. They can be operated day or night. Typically, these are mounted to vehicles--boats, helicopters, airplanes, unmanned drones, tanks, trucks, cars, ATV's and golf carts (saw that one last night). However, they are also mounted to tripods, monopods, handheld, rifle mounted and worn as a monocular.

The Army is currently testing a hybrid light intensifier/thermal unit with the 10th Mountain Division. I would imagine special forces have access to these, but that is just a guess.

An IR tab will reflect any IR radiation striking it and be highly visible to light intensifiers, because they can see some IR light that the human eye cannot. Likewise with IR lights and lasers. There is no light that is invisible to these devices, but they are more sensitive to red, less to green.

Bad guys are using various NVG's--either Generation 1 (and 2?) stuff legally purchased from foreign companies, or Generation 3 stolen or smuggled from the U.S. While not in common use by criminals and terrorists, emitting IR or wearing IR reflective material has to be analyzed for risk/benefit like everything else.


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## Search (Nov 7, 2009)

Lightraven said:


> I would imagine special forces have access to these, but that is just a guess.



Them and other special units like DEVGRU and 1stSFOD-D have access to all kinds of stuff. Nice to have a unit fund that "doesn't exist".

Hey, someone has to test equipment. I just want one of those 416s CAD-1 has their hands all over


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## Lightraven (Nov 7, 2009)

Search said:


> Them and other special units like DEVGRU and 1stSFOD-D have access to all kinds of stuff. Nice to have a unit fund that "doesn't exist".
> 
> Hey, someone has to test equipment. I just want one of those 416s CAD-1 has their hands all over



I have talked to people in special operations, including at least one unit you mention, about night vision. Two mentioned the particular device they use, but it was not the new thermal hybrid unit I read about in Army Times. I could only assume that their units have them, however, as things don't trickle down from the 10th Mountain to secret SF units.

Talking with these guys yields many interesting things, and often not what you'd expect. Suffice to say, many ape their look, gear, vocabulary ("operator") and whatnot, but miss the personal qualities that they consider to be essential.


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## n4zov (Nov 8, 2009)

I wonder if Phantom offers a secret decoder ring? It would fit right in with their super secret pricing for military only approach.


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 8, 2009)

skunked said:


> I though NVG were light intensifiers, not IR based?? The IR tabs are to reflect only IR ( the same as the optical brightners found in almost all laundry detergents, gets your whites whiter and your colors brighter you know) so there is no light source at all that will not show up like a nova on NVG.


That's just wrong and a little thought will give an idea of how really wrong it is. Part of the spectrum is intentionally filtered out because no tasks requiring light could be accomplished anywhere near NV gear if it wasn't.These devices would be nearly impossible to work with *in the real world* if they amplified *all* visible light. 

Think of the scene in the meat packing plant in *"Predator II."* Change the color of the beam and the light seems to go away.

When a helo pilot is flying NOE (Nap Of the Earth) his copilot *sitting right next to him* would not even be able to consult a map if NV gear amplified *all wavelengths*. The pilot's gear would 'bloom,' and they would crash.

That is one example out of a couple thousand. *This post* has some interesting information from someone with 'real world' experience. 

On another note, Phantom Warriors have shown up of Ebay from time to time over the years. They are not illegal to buy or possess.


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## Lightraven (Nov 8, 2009)

Not to pick on anyone, but aren't the brighteners in detergent designed to reflect ultraviolet light, not infrared? Ever play with Woolite and a black light? That stuff glows brightly and makes clothes do the same.


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## Light Sabre (Nov 8, 2009)

It's my understanding that it's UV not IR as well and in the fabric softener not the detergent. (From my Amway days a very long time ago). Just checked both my detergent and fab softener. Kinda hard to tell if it's one or the other.


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 9, 2009)

Lightraven said:


> Not to pick on anyone, but aren't the brighteners in detergent designed to reflect ultraviolet light, not infrared? Ever play with Woolite and a black light? That stuff glows brightly and makes clothes do the same.


Yes, virtually all modern laundry detergents contain ingredients (phosphates IIRC) which actually *fluoresce* under a rather wide range of UV. This florescence is what the ads are actually referring to with claims like, _*"makes colors brighter."*_ 

If one looks around places on the Web that cater to bow hunters it's possible to order laundry detergents for hunting clothes that won't make them fluoresce. Their rationale is that some animals can see this florescence.

*Icebreak* has written some very interesting posts on hunting humans at night in the woods using the residual UV at the low end of a Royal Blue beam to cause their clothes to fluoresce.


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## skunked (Nov 9, 2009)

UV UV UV UV UV brain freeze, rather a large difference between IR and U/V. I am sure that some of the spectrum is filtered out, however I suspect if would not be either red or blue as those are colors used for low light conditions and night vision preservation. I can see a white light or brght light being filtered out. And thermal imagers are rather inexpensive in the overall scheme of things. ( I have seen them used to check power panels for overloads). If it helps NO lights are permitted on board a Naval vessel during night helo landings.


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 10, 2009)

skunked said:


> I though NVG were light intensifiers, not IR based?? The IR tabs are to reflect only IR ( the same as the optical brightners found in almost all laundry detergents, gets your whites whiter and your colors brighter you know) *so there is no light source at all that will not show up like a nova on NVG.*


Emphasis mine.


skunked said:


> *...I am sure that some of the spectrum is filtered out,* however I suspect if would not be either red or blue as those are colors used for low light conditions and night vision preservation...


Emphasis mine.

Your thinking is moving in the right direction.


skunked said:


> UV UV UV UV UV brain freeze, rather a large difference between IR and U/V...


 Yes, the world is complex and so are some engineering solutions.


skunked said:


> ...I can see a white light or brght light being filtered out......


I can't. I see no advantage to hiding enemy convoys from our soldiers and pilots.

There has been a *HUGE* amount of *open source* info (both real world and technical) posted on CPF on this subject covering some of the things that you can not imagine are true. The easiest way to find it is to do a few searches from the Google boxes at the top of any thread.


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