# Which 1W LED has the highest LUMEN/Watt



## mobile1 (Nov 1, 2005)

Which 1W LED has the highest LUMEN/Watt?

In an old thread someone pointed to that Cree here which produces 70 lumen at 700mA. However when I look at the specsheet, the voltage is 4.5V- thats more like 3W - isn't it?

So what's the brightest 1W LED I can get?


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## BackBlast (Nov 2, 2005)

I was reading the Cree documentation for their 1W parts, and it appears that the best binned 1W parts are suppose in the range of 67-73 lumens @ 350 ma or so. Does anyone know when Cree is scheduled to actually ship these parts en mass? I wouldn't mind picking up such a part..

I couldn't really find any Vf information in the Cree liturature. I didn't comb through it though, just a brief look over...

Edit: documentation is located here http://www.etgtech.com/pdf/Xlamp/XLamp7090_B&L.pdf


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## idleprocess (Nov 2, 2005)

My understanding from NewBie is that the vast majority of 1W white Cree XLamp parts are ~3.4V @ 350mA. He's evaluated scads of them...


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## HarryN (Nov 2, 2005)

The brightest 1 watt "LED" you can get is the one with the largest die area. For Lumileds, this is a Lux V, driven at 1 watt.

Lamina of course makes a "large area" package, which would be very efficient at 1 watt, at least I would guess it to be.


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## McGizmo (Nov 2, 2005)

The highest efficacy is obtained in underdriving the LED's so I think I would agree that the 5W driven at 1W might well provide the most lumens. Although the table below is based on only one sample of each LED, I think there is some meat worth chewing on:


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## mobile1 (Nov 2, 2005)

Wow Don - thats an amazing list - I am blown away. Thanks a lot.:wave:


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## lamperich (Nov 2, 2005)

BackBlast said:


> I couldn't really find any Vf information in the Cree liturature. I didn't comb through it though, just a brief look over...



unfortunately it´s true...


Lumiled and cree led´s maybe have same typ. Vf at 350mA
but if you drive that led harder Vf varies a lot

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/96091


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## BackBlast (Nov 2, 2005)

That's a nice chart there. That's a really nice Luxeon III there, I didn't know you could get a U binned LIII. I appears that the XLamp M flux is within spec, perhaps the P flux would be too? Of course... availability might be similar to those U binned LIIIs.

It would be interesting to see a Luxeon V on that same chart.


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## SemiMan (Nov 2, 2005)

McGizmo, what are you using for your test set up in order to do your measurements?

Semiman


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## evan9162 (Nov 2, 2005)

Don,

YES! You confirmed my wierd measurements of 3 Cree XL3-7090s that I received. Their Vf at high current was unusually high. Newbie insisted that I was doing something wrong and/or there was something wrong with my measurement setup - but your Vf measurements of an XL3-7090 mirror mine - so it's not something here, it's actually the Crees themselves.

Great chart.


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## mobile1 (Nov 2, 2005)

Love all the knowledge in here.

What strikes me is how the real values differ to the advertised efficiencies. Shouldnt a couple of those be >50 L/w?

So which Cree should get the 70+L/W - is this the 7090-1W? Has anyone ever seen or got their hands on one of those?


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## balazer (Nov 2, 2005)

Temperature is the big piece of information missing from these tests. Ambient temperature and heat sinking really matter.

Is the Seoul 3W Vf @ 1000 mA a typo?


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## McGizmo (Nov 2, 2005)

Semiman,

I am using an Ocean Optics Spectrometer coupled with an Optronic 6" Integrating Sphere:






Now for calibration of the system, I used a calibrated incan source from OceanOptics and its accompaning "lamp file". The means of introducing this calibration lamp to the IS no doubt introduced error and some light loss. As a result, I am confident that my absolute measurements are off but by how much, I have no idea. The spectral response as well as relative comparisons however should be very close to reality. 

In the case of the LED's measured above, they were all mounted on my "E-Screw" heat sinks and introduced to the IS with the same adapter (shown on the right in the pic below) :






These heat sinks thread into the adapter and then the adapter drops down into the port on the IS. The IS is aluminium and the port is aluminium. I have not noticed any of the test pieces even getting really warm to the touch after some significant on time while mounted to the IS. Ambient temperature has been between 65 and 75 F for most of my testing and in the case above, it was probably in the high 60's for all tests.

That is a typo on the Seoul 2.5W LED. It should be 4.0 V 

Now this test was interesting and I find it instructive to consider. However I want to point out that it is based on single samples of the various LED's and that variations in flux within a bin not to mention across the whole variation beyond specific bins significantly devalues these data points.

On an aside, this system was expensive to say the least and yet it would be considered by many to be a sensless toy and not worthy of use. These would be the folks that point out the shortcomings of $20,000 systems. I have found this humble system to be very instructive and the repeatability as well as predictible responses I have seen have supported my perception that I can glean valuable insight and information from its use. The integration sphere by its very nature allows for a much better and more comprehensive measure of light than say the meassures one gets from a lux meter. :shrug:

* EDIT: I might as well throw in a table and graph I did on a UW0K sample which I find even more useful than the previous table.






I need to point out that my digital bench supply is limited in resolution and control of current to 10's of miliamps and this is why the 50 mA measure is skewed. The actual current to the LED could have been as low as 46 mA or as high as 54 mA.  I have another BK Precision bench supply that has resolution to three places but although advertised as 0 - 6 amps, the lowest I can set it is about 165 mA as I recall!  Man, I called them up and read them the riot act! How can you call it 0 to 6 amps when you can't get close to 0?!?! They should have rated it .200 to 6 amps!! *


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## BackBlast (Nov 2, 2005)

mobile1 said:


> Love all the knowledge in here.
> 
> What strikes me is how the real values differ to the advertised efficiencies. Shouldnt a couple of those be >50 L/w?
> 
> So which Cree should get the 70+L/W - is this the 7090-1W? Has anyone ever seen or got their hands on one of those?



According to what I know, P flux 7090 (1W) is rated from 67-73 lumens. However, that's at 350 ma, and given the reported Vf of the Cree parts. You won't be seeing 70 lumens/watt out of them (really closer to 60-65). The actual efficacy of the part depends on the Vf required. What you are really buying is a 350 ma part, not a 1W part.

Now, I've never seen a P flux 7090. Nor have I seen a 65 L/W K2. Though I'd like to


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## BackBlast (Nov 2, 2005)

Thanks for the excelent charts and graphs McGismo. I find them very enlightening about the behavior of the current crop of LEDs. You're a great resource here.


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## Kiessling (Nov 2, 2005)

So ... with all this talk about Luxeons being outgunned ... I don't see such evidence here. Frommy limited knowledge the U-bin still seems to rule supreme ... :shrug:
bernie


P.D.: McDon ... :thumbsup:


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## idleprocess (Nov 2, 2005)

Cree XLamps are readily available whereas U-bin Luxeon IIIs are still a bit rarified and costly to obtain. Notice how the Cree parts closely match the easier-to-obtain TY0K emitter ... and still costs less.

Yeah, I know. The dreaded price/performance metric where many regulars here will pay anything for an unnoticable 10% more performance...


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## Kiessling (Nov 2, 2005)

idle ... yes, the mass-market argument won't work with us here  

I am not a Lumileds fanboy, I am just wondering why all those great news about other manufacturers I am hearing for more than a year now don't transform into a widely available product that is actually clearly superior to the LuxIII ... including Vin, color tint, etc.

bernie


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## chimo (Nov 2, 2005)

Don, thanks for sharing your testing results. These would have taken a good deal of time to run through - your effort is very much appreciated! 

BTW, that Nichia Jupiter posted some impressive results.

Paul


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## McGizmo (Nov 2, 2005)

I believe the Luxeon U bin LuxIII claims the roost at present. However, if one were to buy a Luxeon light at target and a Nichia based light at target, it could well be that the Nichia would appear brighter to the customer than the Luxeon light. If the Luxeon were a S bin and the Nichia were a P12 for instance.

Although the numbers provide for obvious ranking, real world evaluation would not see the differences that the numbers imply; I think we all agree on this. To me, the one single advantage that still goes to Lumileds is that of tint consistancy throughout the beam. EOS is the deciding factor. However, I understand that the others are making headway in this regard and if one of the others can do something with magic sized nano crystals, all bets are off. 

I suspect that a year from now, the elements and subject of this thread will seem like old history!! I know some CPFer's feel that nothing is really happening anymore and that we are just seeing repackaging and rehashing of the same stuff but at one level, a flashlight is still just a flashlight. On closer inspection though, the ride is no where near over and there are still some interesting curves ahead!


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## lamperich (Nov 2, 2005)

@Mcgizmo

Great job.


the little gray "ball" is the so called IS.
and it cost you 20k$...
that´s a joke :-D

looks sweet to my eyes. http://www.xlsports.de/images/40400.jpg









Now serious questions.

-Do you know how the different Color Temp. and Color shift does effect?
On the Latop is that the Wavelength?

-You need a better power supply maybe take a look at Agilent 0-20V 3A Power supply modell no E3615A. Cost "only" ~600 Dollar





-Can you also creat such a table with the well known Mag Kryton and Surefire xenon bulbs too?
Would be nice to know, i think


And you´re taking about interessting curves:
YEAR.
for example degeneration with Directdriven/ resistor/ and very interessting regulated driven LED`s specialy if you us them often with momentan on.





A little newbie review:
My first LED flashlight is 2 Years old now. It´s a little 3Ag13 cell Direct driven 5mm LED.
Today i got my sec one for under 2 EUR at a local store. So there is no reason to complain BUT i do it nevertheless.
When i compare them no surprise: the new one was much brighter but when i swap the Batteries; that was a surprise.

So i think LED Output derease MUCH faster as advertised if there are little Voltage/current spikes when you turn the torch ON and OFF.

I think in this case the little LED always got a "kick in the ***" when i pushed the button.


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## tvodrd (Nov 2, 2005)

There's stuff "in the pipe" which should significantly impact white LED efficiency. The links are long-lost, but one development with micropores raises die efficiency and the other moves the phosphor off the die, significantly raising conversion efficiency. Two years ago, R2H's were the "gold standard." A year ago T-bins were the "OMGs." Whycome Lumileds hasn't been able to replicate the X-bin, 5Ws from 2 years ago?? A year from now we will have better stuff, and still be bitching about it.

Larry


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## hotbeam (Nov 3, 2005)

Don, great set of data in post #5. Nice IS BTW


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## 3rd_shift (Nov 3, 2005)

I have to agree about the UWOK, as I do have one running quite well at about 1 amp in one of my lights.
I paid 3,200 cents for it, and no regrets yet.


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## wquiles (Nov 17, 2005)

Thanks Don for collecting and sharing this data with us :bow:

Will


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## ledled (Nov 17, 2005)

Sorry for my ignorance, what are the other brands on the left besides Luxeon & Nichia.
Are they new companies who also make bright LEDs? How come most of our flashlights today only use Luxeon?


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## jar3ds (Nov 18, 2005)

holy cow... where can i get these ""E-Screw" heat sinks " that camo light is awesome! Give me more info!


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## cy (Dec 20, 2005)

many thanks for sharing your work. 
most useful info!


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## VidPro (Dec 20, 2005)

lamperich said:


> unfortunately it´s true...
> 
> 
> Lumiled and cree led´s maybe have same typ. Vf at 350mA
> ...



and that answers the other question i had .
might be better to list the output based on watts to begin with, not based on MA, beings the total watts is what determines actual runtime. and the actual ammount of power it uses, instead of a bunch of specs that dont apply to any reality.

the poor 3W cree is being pushed at 5W in the 1000ma section.
that reminds me of the low VF of the red things, and how its spec at the SAME ma rating is not relative.

ON THE OTHER hand 
isnt the cree handling a overvoltage situation better? so to speak
wouldnt you rather have a led in that Bends a bit to high input voltages, as opposed to breaking?
at 1000ma its at 5V, that means there would be no chance of toasting it with 3 nimhys, or 1 li-ion fully topped off.

so look at how LITTLE the cree3 thing varies in output over the range that a li-ion would output (3.6-4.1) its like it was made for DD li-ion 
now look at how the Tbinned lux 3 would handle the same voltage fluxuations of a DD li-ion. 
ones hanging, one is frying.

so it still might have a place in life.
what is the capacity for the cree to have concentration of that light to a spot though?


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## NewBie (Dec 20, 2005)

Knowing the construction and heatsinking, I do have to ask, McGizmo, can you show us exactly how the CREE parts were mounted and heatsinked?
Basically the Thermal path you used, it can make a tremendous difference.

The CREE M flux bin is 39.8-51.7 lm/W.
Do you have the N flux bin for the CREE 1W parts?

McGizmo, do you have any testing data for the LumiLEDs Luxeon T bins, which are more typical of what a person can actually obtain? They run 23% dimmer vs. the U bins.

IMHO, this chart compares a nearly unobtainium U bin LumiLEDs part, vs. a typical CREE part, and shows considerable bias as such.

Idleprocess, I've seen average batch Vf of the CREE run from 3.221 @ 350mA and another batch at 3.304 @ 350mA for the 1W CREE lately. Yes, there are some that are higher and some that are lower. 

For the 3W CREE I see an average Vf of 3.423V @ 350mA.

Here, I had a sampling of 3W parts I measured @ 350mA (keep in mind the 1W parts do have a lower Vf):


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## VidPro (Dec 20, 2005)

NewBie said:


> Knowing the construction and heatsinking, I do have to ask, McGizmo, can you show us exactly how the CREE parts were mounted and heatsinked?
> Basically the Thermal path you used, it can make a tremendous difference.



i wondered that to, beings some of them come in different packages.
also, another figure that cant be seen untill much TIME has passed, is a low output one, might have more phosphors. after 25k hours of burning, which is really only a few years continuous, the one with more phosphors might still have something other than blue comming out of it .
and i can guess, that leds like the cree, and the mjled thing probably have a larger quantity of available phosphors based on how they are spread out.

and color and how these meter things (yes even the overpriced ones) will rate a obnoxious blueie as higher than a white that actually has more color in it.

that is all the resons i hate specs, and prefer the USERS opinion.


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## chimo (Dec 20, 2005)

QUOTE=NewBie
Knowing the construction and heatsinking, I do have to ask, McGizmo, can you show us exactly how the CREE parts were mounted and heatsinked?
Basically the Thermal path you used, it can make a tremendous difference.
/QUOTE

My guess would be one of these in a can. Of course, it's just a guess.  

Paul


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## balazer (Dec 20, 2005)

VidPro said:


> might be better to list the output based on watts to begin with, not based on MA, beings the total watts is what determines actual runtime. and the actual ammount of power it uses, instead of a bunch of specs that dont apply to any reality.


That's simply not true. Current draw numbers will be more relevant that total power for a number of scenarios, including direct drive, resistored, and linear regulator lights. In other scenarios, total power will be more relevant.


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## VidPro (Dec 20, 2005)

balazer said:


> That's simply not true. Current draw numbers will be more relevant that total power for a number of scenarios, including direct drive, resistored, and linear regulator lights. In other scenarios, total power will be more relevant.



yup, i thought of that late. when stuck at a specific current via a current controlled driver of some sort.
but still if were only analizing the bulb part, for things like OVERRATED lumen per watt specs , and Wizz bang hey we can pump 1500ma into it, then they are going to start making stuff, that falls into the testing lines.

if the big hoopla about the testing is ONE item, then that is all the led people will care about. like a 26,000MCD 5mm led, that is NOT brighter, its just more spotty. or a superbright led, that has no colors, or a LEd that works in a sphere and nowhere else, or a led that looks great in ONE spot, or review models that go out to reviewers, while we get stuck with the runt of the litter.

only HERE could they have so much analisis of everything do we get to see that things are often RELATIVE, in the other Sales locations, this weeks BS feature, is the answer to all ya prayers  yet a year later nothing has really changed.


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## NewBie (Dec 20, 2005)

McGizmo said:


> The highest efficacy is obtained in underdriving the LED's so I think I would agree that the 5W driven at 1W might well provide the most lumens. Although the table below is based on only one sample of each LED, I think there is some meat worth chewing on:





I got to thinking, we pick the ultimate nearly unobtanium UWOK to represent LumiLEDs Luxeon.

In reality, the T bins really represent the Luxeon high end, imho.

For my past six orders, pushing Future for top bins, I've gotten SWOK, and TXOK, TWOJ, SXOK.

So we pick a cream of the crop Luxeon to do comparisons with.

I called ETGTech today for easy to get output bins. N-0002 are available, yet the comparision is for the M bin, and the sub-bin is not stated. So we pick a mediocre CREE device, with, in my experience, one of the highest Vf available, 3.5V @ 350mA (rare). Then we mount it on a PCB that doesn't have the best (good but not great) thermal transfer. So we hobble the CREE parts by a factor of three now.

Can you give the details on the 3W CREE you used, the Binning, color, and sub binning are listed right on the package:







I don't think anyone could claim Kingship or ruler of the Roost, when things are stacked like that.

IMHO, it is like picking a Ford GTO, and putting it up against a Chevy Cobalt, pouring motor oil on the Chevy tires, and hooking a trailer up to the Chevy.

We are going to compare Ford vs. Chevrolet, and base our conclusions on the above configurations.

Then you time for a 0-60 mph....

WooHoo!!! Ford Rules!!!

okay, not quite that bad, but you get the idea...


Anyhow, thanks a bunch for your data, good work.


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## NewBie (Dec 20, 2005)

lamperich said:


> unfortunately it´s true...
> 
> 
> Lumiled and cree led´s maybe have same typ. Vf at 350mA
> ...



The CREE 1W part looks like this:






The CREE 3W looks like this:







mobile1

The 70lm/W CREE isn't out yet.


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## hotbeam (Dec 20, 2005)




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## ViReN (Dec 20, 2005)

Although i do not have anything to prove.. but.. i feel that

*S Bin Luxeon I * running at 100 - 150 mA should give highest Lumens/Watt...

Also one of the contendender is K2 ... dont know the exact part number but the 3 watt Highest Bin could also out-do the Luxeon I S Bin's ...


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## IsaacHayes (Dec 21, 2005)

hotbeam, is that "3watt or 1watt" cree??


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## hotbeam (Dec 21, 2005)

IsaacHayes said:


> hotbeam, is that "3watt or 1watt" cree??



Isaac, its a 3 watt part


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## NewBie (Dec 21, 2005)

hotbeam said:


> Isaac, its a 3 watt part




Yeah, thats my package.

Remember, that is at 700mA, and it is not cream of the crop.


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## hotbeam (Dec 21, 2005)

Jar, you are right. Its not the cream. It's like a low "U" from LML. Still very good though.


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## McGizmo (Dec 21, 2005)

Newbie,
Easy there big fella!! :nana:

I am not trying to bias any situation here and with a sample of one each of these LED's, the chart is bogus on many fronts as you well know!! However, did you miss the TY0J Luxeon that is also there? 

I took one of every LED I had at the time and and mounted them on E-screws and dit this little test. I had no intention of prooving any preconceived notion or bias going into this. I have since received a S bin 1W and ran a separate test on it. I posted the results in some thread that is now likely lost somewhere. :shrug:

As for heat sinking the Cree, I don't think there is any problem there! I did use a emitter PCB that I asked Wayne to consider making and he went full bore on it! It is only .010" thick and has like 90 silver filled vias between the copper under the LED and the full coper plane on the bottom side. I soldered the LED down to this PCB with solder paste. The .600" diameter PCB is then bonded with Arctic Silver to the E-screw. None of these E-screw sinks even got warm to the touch in the short period I ran the LED's in these tests.


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## NewBie (Dec 22, 2005)

Have you gotten any of the N bin 1W CREE that have been available from ETGTech? How about the Q bin 3W?

What is the binning and sub binning on the 3XL7090 and the sub binning on the XL7090 you used?


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## CroMAGnet (Dec 25, 2005)

Great info all around here. Made me think of the WWOS available on CPF right now. 

Can someone please post the Lumens of a WWOS driven at 400, 500 and if possible 750.

Would you recommend a Badboy or NexGen?


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## cy (Dec 25, 2005)

if you really wanted to stack the deck... put up a recently easy to obtain, Wbin luxeon driven at 700 milliamps against the pack. 

what's not fair is using nearly unobtainable Xbin against the pack. 

I used to have an undriven Xbin driven at 500 milliamps. it would put out more lumens than any other LED I had access to at same current.


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## RedmEx (Mar 8, 2006)

McGizmo said:


> .... I have since received a S bin 1W and ran a separate test on it. I posted the results in some thread that is now likely lost somewhere. :shrug:




I think it's this one: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/100228

Found it by accident, as I am looking for tets of the K2s...

RedmEx


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## hotbeam (Apr 6, 2006)

Has there been any updates in terms of suppliers/models on this list?


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## Opto-King (Apr 6, 2006)

You must keep in mind that Seoul Semiconductor and Cree has a much better Thermal Resistance (about 8degree C/W) than the Lumileds LEDs has (about 15degree C/W) which means that if you cool the LEDs as you should. You will get more brightness out of the SSC and Cree LEDs than you will with the Lumileds LEDs.

www.zled.com www.cree.com www.powerled.se

And regarding to the LED comparison chart, it would be nice to know what date that the LEDs has been tested.


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## -=RelakS=- (Apr 6, 2006)

I see this table, and I have a question:
Why will be so good for us the K2 leds? Cause it can be tolerate more heat, and it will be less rare than the LuxIII U-bin?


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## chimo (Apr 8, 2006)

Here are the plotted results with the LuxI S bin:


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## idleprocess (Apr 9, 2006)

-=RelakS=- said:


> I see this table, and I have a question:
> Why will be so good for us the K2 leds? Cause it can be tolerate more heat, and it will be less rare than the LuxIII U-bin?



_According to the spec sheet_, the K2 has signifigantly lower thermal resistance than the Luxeon. This means thatfor a given power level, more heat will be removed from the die of a K2 than a Luxeon; leading to less output drop because of heat and reduced heatsinking requirements.

Also _according to the spec sheet_, you can buy K2's by flux bins as a function of part number as opposed to playing the "luxeon lottery" or trying to negotiate for a decent bin from Future.

Why am I emphacising the *according to the spec sheet* disclaimer?  Because I hear Lumileds is having trouble meeting their own spec sheets, and the K2 does not seem to be available in quantity yet or even all part numbers (flux bins).


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## jar3ds (Apr 9, 2006)

yeah... if the K2 really pans out the way the SPEC SHEET says.... it'll become an idea candidate for the Jil Intelli due to its lack of space for heat sinking....


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## Pathlight (Apr 9, 2006)

Hi Hotbeam, Great info. Thanks. I'm really interested in the best lm/watt
ratings at 50ma +-, or where most efficiency is. Also do you know which 5mm
leds are most efficient? Seems cut SMJled (with reflector) is very good. Don't
go to any trouble, but if you know or find out, please let me know. Gordon


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## AilSnail (Apr 9, 2006)

> for example degeneration with Directdriven/ resistor/ and very interessting regulated driven LED`s specialy if you us them often with momentan on.



Yea I have wondered about that. What is the max current going through a led when connecting it to a fresh 3xaa pack for instance. Does anyone have any idea whether it's harming the LED?


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