# American horsepower - .454, .460 or .500?



## kaichu dento (Feb 12, 2010)

We got off topic in one of the other threads talking about big guns, and actually it was Windstring's fault and not mine.  
Still I want to be able to continue, and so we shall here, at the urging of Windstrings and LumenMan.

As the title says this thread is for anyone interested in the .454 Casull, .460 SW or .500 SW and it's not about political discussions or whether you think these guns are overkill, stupid, over-priced or non-'G'-string friendly! Golden Rule rules here: treat others opinions the same way you'd like them to treat yours, please.

If you love these three or have any other of their brethren that you're passionate about, post here about them! The only 'small' caliber I'd like to see mentioned here would be the now commonplace .44 Mag, because how can you not love it too! :twothumbs


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## Steve in SoCal (Feb 12, 2010)

The .454 Casull is a modern classic.

The Desert Eagle .50 AE is also ridiculously fun to shoot..:devil:


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## flip (Feb 12, 2010)

A guy I used to work with bought a Feedom Arms 454 Casull several years ago. He doesn't hunt or fish in bear country, it was just a toy. I have shot it a few times and I also used to reload ammo for it.

I have seen 2 very experienced handgun shooters complain of their wrist being hurt after firing one shot from that revolver. I didn't think it was that bad but I was shooting magnum revolvers before I started junior high school so maybe I am a little more used to recoil than they were.

A few months ago, I turned down a great deal on a S&W 500. I should have bought it, played with it a while and then sold it for substantially more than I would have paid for. I just didn't want to have to pay for factory ammo or another set of dies.  

I'm not a big 44 mag fan. Since I hand load ammo, I think I actually prefer the 45 COLT to the 44 magnum. With 300 grain bullets you get very similar velocity. And, if lighter bullets are to be used, I'd just as soon be shooting a 41 magnum.


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## windstrings (Feb 12, 2010)

Now you've done it!.... makes you wonder what makes the world go around on the other side of the world?

whats the magic?.. what turns my wheels?

1. I like big lasers!
2. Stinkin bright lights!..followed by really stinkin bright lights!
3. Big friggin loud guns that echo off things you didn't even know was there!
4. Cars that go so fast you can make the guy going the freeway speedlimit think his engine failed and start to get out of his car going 70mph to see whats wrong!
5. Binoculars that turn the world into a wonderland of marvel because you can see every tiny pimple at 200 yards "swarovski EL's" "its a bugs life you know!
6. Phones that do every thing except "beam me up scotty"
7. Big HD TV's that are so clear and sharp they make your friends think you have a portal into other worlds.
8. Guns... Purdy guns!.. Stainless and Gold guns that shoot like silk and purr like a fine machine as you rap off those caps!
9. Fast Boats!..
10. Be the only one on the water as its like glass and the fish start boiling the surface!
11. To be the first off the lift in the morning and see virgin snow beneath you as the sun rises!... and then see how fast you can get to the bottom without killing yourself!
12. To be in the woods alone with nothing but a bow and look up and see a Majestic ELK right next to you so big you don't dare **** him off!


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## kaichu dento (Feb 12, 2010)

Steve in SoCal said:


> The .454 Casull is a modern classic.
> 
> The Desert Eagle .50 AE is also ridiculously fun to shoot..:devil:


Yes it is. I really enjoyed mine and the only times I saw people have trouble with their wrist was when they had it locked too tightly. On the other hand I only liked shooting them for a cylinder or two!

Desert Eagle was a lot of fun to shoot, but too big for my hand to feel secure! 

The one I really want is the S&W .460 V and I hope some people pop up with pics of some!


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## flip (Feb 12, 2010)

I know it doesn't have anywhere near the power level of what we are discussing here but I have been thinking about getting a 50GI conversion kit for my Glock 10mm. There is just something special about a 50 caliber bullet to a gun nut!


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## andyw513 (Feb 12, 2010)

There's something about the .500 S&W that I always liked, especially for large animals.


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## Kestrel (Feb 12, 2010)

I am a big fan of the .454. I grew up packing a S&W .44 Mag in Alaska, but now when I am back there camping or backpacking in bear country, I carry my Ruger .454 in a shoulder holster (with the scope detached of course). Both have been very accurate for me.

I used to feel slightly undergunned with my Speer 300 grain handloads in the .44 (chronographed @ 1100 fps), but now I use 360 grain Cor-Bons @ 1500 fps (claimed velocity from a pistol barrel). The Ruger isn't quite as sweet as my old S&W, but an action job (as well as other work) at Magna-Port improved things somewhat.

Other advantages of the .454 over the other 'cannons':

Purchasing light practice loads is a lot easier & far less expensive: 45 Colt is much more common than .44 Special, let alone light loadings for the other chamberings
Reloading for light loads is easier with the prevalance of .45 Colt brass - magnum brass is expensive .
Much greater bullet selection for reloads, including cast bullets - I'd love to reload some of the ultra-light .45 ACP bullets sometime just for grins
A greater selection of high performance ammo: Cor-Bon and Garrett just for starters


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## Search (Feb 12, 2010)

What's all of this three digit stuff about?











One of these days we'll argue what the greatest gun in history is 

On a side note, when I first opened this thread all I looked at was the 454. I was about to recommend a blown 302


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## kelmo (Feb 12, 2010)

"Manswers" did a comparison on what is the most powerful handgun. The big gun they used was the SW500, a 44 mag, and a 357. They did the typical measurements, muzzle velocity, muzzle energy, etc., etc., etc. The recoil comparison was what made it a Manswer. They had three very well endowed women fire the weapons and they compared the jiggle in slow-motion!

Big guns and big... er... you get the picture!

I revel in my own testosterone!!!


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## Radiophile (Feb 12, 2010)

flip said:


> I have seen 2 very experienced handgun shooters complain of their wrist being hurt after firing one shot from that revolver. I didn't think it was that bad but I was shooting magnum revolvers before I started junior high school so maybe I am a little more used to recoil than they were.



I agree. A firm but not tight grip, Weaver stance (not isosceles!), and a little mental preparation makes dealing with magnums not a big deal. If you don't have meaty palms to absorb the recoil, they sell padded shooting gloves.

I once shot a .44 Magnum with ammunition so overloaded that the primers flowed back into the firing pin opening. Super Blackhawk. Groups were a little over an inch bench rested.


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## Starlight (Feb 12, 2010)

I have a 454 Casull, a 445 Supermag, a 45-70, 2 475 Linebaughs, 2 50AEs, a 500 Linebaugh, and a 500S&W. The only one that is ported is the 500 S&W. I really like shooting all of them. The only one that ever hurt me was the 50AE in a Freedom Arms revolver that I held too loosely, but ANY of them will hurt you if you don't pay attention. I love the BIG pistols!


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## Casper507 (Feb 12, 2010)

I'd like to try a glock .50 but have no desire for any of the others except possibly .454. 

Wish I would have known about brits passing their laws against handguns and been able to run over and get a couple matching .58 caliber revolvers. Leroy Thompson had a "Bland" (? I think) revolver which fired a 3-4 hundred grain .58 powered by a 28 grains of black powder. It had a handle shaped almost like a LeMat revolver if I recall correctly. I want two in suspender style holsters that attach at sides like army field suspenders.


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## Radiophile (Feb 12, 2010)

Starlight said:


> I have a .... 445 Supermag



Sweet! How do you like it? Did you ever use it for it's intended purpose? Do you have the kit with all the barrel lengths?

I always wanted to buy one but never got around to it. I really love the Dan Wesson revolvers with their rather short double action pull and their unique grip because I have short fingers and can actually pull them. My brother has a .357 but I don't know the model or vintage - it's got to be from at least the mid-80s. Of course their awesome accuracy and strength also add to my affection.


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## Greg G (Feb 12, 2010)

flip said:


> I'm not a big 44 mag fan. Since I hand load ammo, I think I actually prefer the 45 COLT to the 44 magnum. With 300 grain bullets you get very similar velocity. And, if lighter bullets are to be used, I'd just as soon be shooting a 41 magnum.



A friend loaned me a Freedom Arms .454 a few years ago to shoot. He gave me a box of ammunition with it. I don't consider myself a recoil wuss, but I never got excited about shooting that thing. I gave it back to him about a month later. 

I own a .44 mag Super Blackhawk that I take for protection against bear on hunts, but I really love my .41's. I have 2 Model 57's that are perfect, and a Model 58 that the previous owner fired quite a bit. I carry the 58 in the car for now. I get bored with the Sig and the Beretta.

Edit: I have a Blackhawk in .45 Colt that I load LBT's for. 300 grainers. Nice gun.


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## windstrings (Feb 12, 2010)

I watched a few videos of the 50cal Desert Gold Eagle.. quite a beautiful weapon!
I'm not that massive of a man and I got a hunch I wouldn't appreciate the recoil.

I"ve read the .454 is much kinder.

I don't really care for the 6 shooter style... but really like the desert Eagle Mark XIX Pistol.
The Gold Desert Eagle Mk19 is even nicer!.... a mere 1900.00 bucks!

I have a Stainless Ruger Mk IV .22 thats very nice but and kick is obviously not an issue but I can play with it without worrying about finances "or" breaking my wrist!

What pistol do you guys recommend in an automatic that is kinder to the wrist?

I do indeed have a 30-06 Remington BDL Deluxe Basket weave Stock I've had for years and a little girl could shoot it.. it feels about like a .410 shotgun and it splits the energy to keep it from all going backward..... nice technology.

I know some pistols have venting technology to help recoil and an Auto does some of that by default.

Is there a high caliber pistol you guys would recommend?


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 12, 2010)

wingstings, the 454 will not be kinder. In an auto, I think that the 45 auto, or Glock, in 10MM with original ballistics will be more than enough horsepower. There is a guy in the Napa County, CA area that uses a Glock 10mm to hunt Mountain Lions gone wrong. Dangerous quarry without dogs.

Bill


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## Paladin (Feb 12, 2010)

My handcannon is a 14 inch T/C single shot rechambered in 444 Marlin. I've never had a range lurker ask to fire it a second time. Handloads throw 300 grain hard cast lead at a chronied 1800 to 1900 fps..._using the starting load in the manual!_

Paladin


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## FlashKat (Feb 12, 2010)

The Desert Eagles are well balanced with a smooth recoil that does not kick back hard.


windstrings said:


> I watched a few videos of the 50cal Desert Gold Eagle.. quite a beautiful weapon!
> I'm not that massive of a man and I got a hunch I wouldn't appreciate the recoil.
> 
> I"ve read the .454 is much kinder.
> ...


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## paintballdad (Feb 13, 2010)

I used to work in a gun shop a number of years ago and the small chain also had a firing range at one of the locations. We had access to quite a selection of firearms, including some from the owners collection. Though i mainly carried and shot 9mm and 45acp handguns. I did put in my fair share of 357 and 44 mags, stout recoil but not punishing by any means. One firearm and caliber that does stick out in my mind is the LAR Grizzly and the 45 Winchester Magnum cartridge that it shot. That was a SOB to shoot, i gave up after the 4th shot. I've never shot any of the cartridges mentioned here so i'm not exactly sure how it would compare. I just know it was not something i wanted to do again.


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## kaichu dento (Feb 13, 2010)

windstrings said:


> I watched a few videos of the 50cal Desert Gold Eagle.. quite a beautiful weapon!
> I'm not that massive of a man and I got a hunch I wouldn't appreciate the recoil.
> I"ve read the .454 is much kinder.
> 
> ...


The Desert Eagle is incredibly soft in recoil and the .454 is exactly the opposite. My Ruger Super Redhawk feels very mild after shooting the Freedom Arms .454 Casull and although I was quite happy with the .454, the S&W .460 is by all first hand accounts I've heard softer than both the the .454 and the S&W .500, while outperforming the .454 which was previously unthinkable.

I hope we'll get some feedback from someone who has all three calibers and can give a direct comparison between them.


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## tlillard23 (Feb 13, 2010)

all of the paper targets, cans and chunks of dirt that I have shot - have never - ever- ever gotten back up!!!!

go chairborne somewhere else
:thumbsdow


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## Patriot (Feb 13, 2010)

^ Is that a serious post above me? I don't get it unless he's was replying to someone that I missed. :thinking:



I think all of them or great calibers in their own right and there is no "best." Each has attributes that make it special. The title goes to the .500 for energy, to the .460 for projectile speed and cartridge flexibility since it also fires .454 and .45 long colt, and to the .454 for its standardization and fine track record. My own personal favorite of these having shot all, the .460. It's new, fast and can fire .454. While I'd probably prefer the .500 for buffalo or in Africa I'm not in Africa and all of these have fantastic amounts of energy. 

I like the .50AE but I've never been a fan of the Desert Eagle. For me it doesn't fit a role that another pistol can't do better. It feels massive and clumsy unlike some large caliber wheel guns that still feel elegant. That's just the nature of stacking a row of huge cartridges inside of a magazine, inside of a pistol grip, instead of a cylinder. There's just no way around the physics there. 

What's not to like about .44 mag, its amazing history, it's practical capabilities in the wilderness or as a self defense round? It's following is huge and it's still the lower standard by which all other defensive hand gun calibers are judged. The NIJ uses it as their upper reference for handgun energy when rating body armor, which speaks of it's commonality. While many will never shoot a .500 or even want to, many aspire to fire a .44 mag, even as just a novelty. I get many shooters from oversea's who wan't to do two things, shoot a machine gun and a .44 mag. While the machine gun is usually feasible depending on the type, the .44 mag often isn't if they have zero handgun experience. It just doesn't work. :duck:

As for the pistols chambered in rifle rounds, sure, you can always move up to customs and even move on to wildcat rounds in custom guns like the JDJ's and so on. The nice thing about the thread topic calibers is that there are a fairly large selection of factory firearms to support the calibers.

Fun thread!


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## windstrings (Feb 13, 2010)

Now I'm really confused!

I"m not sure going by what many people like or want to do will be accurate for me as guns build a legacy, are in the movies, and have a reputation that may be superceeded by newer technology thats not as well known yet.

I'm hearing the Desert Eagle is smoother with less recoil but more foot/lbs of energy?... is that the right story?

I do enjoy flexibility of what you can shoot in ammo but I've never been a pistol shooter... only rifles.

If I'm going with a large caliber, and be an infrequent shooter, I don't want it to be like bowling where you torque your wrist out because its not in shape.

There must be a reason the Desert eagle can demand a price of 1600 - 1800.00.

The ideal of owning and shooting a .50 cal pistol is obviously romantic "in a man sort of way" but I expect if it kills my hand everytime I try to play with it, I'll end up selling it as a loss.


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 13, 2010)

Those of us who want to do recreational shooting will seldom take their 44 mag out with full power loads, and shoot several hundred rounds. Even that lower end high power handgun caliber can put a strain on our bodies, particularly if it is fired in swing out cylinder wheel gun. When I reloaded for my Ruger Super Blackhawk, I would often load to 1100 fps or so for the 240-250 Keith style lead bullet, and still have a relatively powerful load.

Bill


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## Kestrel (Feb 13, 2010)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Those of us who want to do recreational shooting will seldom take their 44 mag out with full power loads, and shoot several hundred rounds. Even that lower end high power handgun caliber can put a strain on our bodies, particularly if it is fired in swing out cylinder wheel gun. When I reloaded for my Ruger Super Blackhawk, I would often load to 1100 fps or so for the 240-250 Keith style lead bullet, and still have a relatively powerful load.


I used to reload lots of reduced loads back when I had more free time, but if I need to pick up some inexpensive practice (low-power) loads for the .454, there is lots of 'cowboy' :shakehead loads in .45 Colt - a very inexpensive and convenient option. This is one of the two big reasons I retired my .44 Mag for the .454.


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## Ninjaz7 (Feb 13, 2010)

I believe the only person whos hand comfortablly fits the 50AE would be Andre the Giant...what about the .41,would it compete in your comparison.
I've shot a super redhawk in a .44 mag but not a .454(beauty with the leopold)or any other of the cal. discussed...Fairly simular,correct?

And to have a .444 in a handgun(simmular to a thompson contender I guess)WOW...if it's the same round as a rifle sports...is that correct?

Thanks guys great thread...Here's a question for the bear country guys...would a .357 with a hot load be a fools weapon in against a bear?I don't want to pull away for the original thread ...but sometimes you just got to here it from someone thats been there...again,great thread


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## kaichu dento (Feb 13, 2010)

Ninjaz7 said:


> I believe the only person whos hand comfortablly fits the 50AE would be Andre the Giant...what about the .41,would it compete in your comparison.
> I've shot a super redhawk in a .44 mag but not a .454(beauty with the leopold)or any other of the cal. discussed...Fairly simular,correct?
> 
> And to have a .444 in a handgun(simmular to a thompson contender I guess)WOW...if it's the same round as a rifle sports...is that correct?
> ...


That made me laugh about Andre the Giant, because it's true; those things are huge, but also very comfortable to shoot.

Shooting a Super Redhawk .44 Mag and comparing it to the .454 would be a very far, far stretch! The .44 will feel very soft after you've grown accustomed to the .454!

Using .357 for bear protection would be dependent largely on what kind of bear, or more precisely, where you are. Although .357 is probably okay for most black bear country, I wouldn't want to depend on it if I went to Prince of Wales Island, where many of the blacks are bigger than some grizzlies. For other bears it would most definitely be good to have something bigger! 
The couple times I've drawn a handgun on a bear I was happy to have had a .44 or .454!


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## Patriot (Feb 13, 2010)

Ninjaz7 said:


> Thanks guys great thread...Here's a question for the bear country guys...would a .357 with a hot load be a fools weapon in against a bear?I don't want to pull away for the original thread ...but sometimes you just got to here it from someone thats been there...again,great thread




It's not that it's foolish Ninjaz but there are better choices starting with the additional energy provided by the popular .44 mag. It has been a mainstay sidearm caliber in the Alaskan back county for decades. 





> Kestrel
> I used to reload lots of reduced loads back when I had more free time, but if I need to pick up some inexpensive practice (low-power) loads for the .454, there is lots of 'cowboy' :shakehead loads in .45 Colt - a very inexpensive and convenient option. This is one of the two big reasons I retired my .44 Mag for the .454.


...and that's a great call on your part Kestrel. The main difference between the .45 LC and .454 as compared to the 44 mag is double action revolver choices. With the .44 mag, choices are abundant. With the .45LC and .454 they're not and the shooter will be limited to mostly single action. If single action is all one needs or wants the .45s make great sense.




> Windy
> Now I'm really confused!
> 
> 
> ...


Windy, if we're talking about factory loads the .454 produces a good deal more energy than the .50AE. 
Typical 454 = 260 gr @ 1800 fps = 1811 fpe
Typical 50 = 300 gr @ 1380 fps = 1228 fpe

Even with similar projectile weights of 325 vs 330 there's a good separation of 200+ feet per second which is substantial. .454 was designed to handle 55-65K cup while the .50AE is around 45K cup, (pressures) iirc.

Essentially, they're incomparable because they're so different. The .50AE is the auto caliber king and that's it's main "bragging point" you could say. The .454 revolver is actually practical, carry-able and completely at home in the field. For every 100 people carrying a .454 revolver in the field or shooting recreationally, there might be only one person carrying/using a DE. Price has absolutely nothing to do with which is better, more powerful or smoother because that's decided by complexity of design and manufacturing. Yes, the .50AE will have less recoil, but that's due to the simple fact that it's a gas-operated semi-auto and because factory loads are somewhat less energetic. Going the route of the DE .50AE also carries with it certain handicaps though such as comfort, ergonomics, complexity, reliability, and field applicability. 

The romanticism of the .50 cal is probably also overstated since all it means is that the bore is a half inch in diameter. In other words, you can have a .50cal blowgun, paintball gun, musket, .500S&W or .50BMG. All are completely different and the term .50 cal is only going to be impressive to the layman that heard of the term in a movie. 

If you're trying to decide on something like this for yourself you'll have to ask yourself other questions like; how often are you going to fire it, are you going to start reloading, will this be a novelty or fulfill some practical application, and what's the largest full load handgun caliber that you've fired so far and how does it compare in energy to the ones listed above? The reason that I ask is that most people, even dedicated hand gunners find the recoil of a maximum loaded .44mag quite punishing. It's no slouch at all. 

I'll be working on some videos in the next few weeks where I shoot all three of these calibers for you so that you can see the comparison.  The only hard thing is sourcing full power .500S&W since I don't have any immediate access to any.


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## QtrHorse (Feb 14, 2010)

For me, my .44Mag is much more punishing to my hand than a .50 DE. Now the .454 was just not for me in a short revolver. It was brutal to my hand. It was not even fun to shoot at all.

My .45LC seems to have half the recoil that my .44Mag has even though the .45LC has a shorter barrel.


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 14, 2010)

QtrHorse said:


> For me, my .44Mag is much more punishing to my hand than a .50 DE. Now the .454 was just not for me in a short revolver. It was brutal to my hand. It was not even fun to shoot at all.
> 
> My .45LC seems to have half the recoil that my .44Mag has even though the .45LC has a shorter barrel.



Shooting comparable power loads to the 44Mag in the 45LC?

Bill


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## LumenMan (Feb 14, 2010)

QtrHorse said:


> For me, my .44Mag is much more punishing to my hand than a .50 DE. Now the .454 was just not for me in a short revolver. It was brutal to my hand. It was not even fun to shoot at all.
> 
> My .45LC seems to have half the recoil that my .44Mag has even though the .45LC has a shorter barrel.


 
The .50 DE is much more pleasant to shoot since the gas system & the sheer weight of the weapon helps to minimize recoil 

I love my .454 & my .500 S&W, but there's something about the looks of my vintage S&W model 29 that makes me go  Stoked with Buffalo Bore ammunition, Elmer Keiths favorite handgun caliber is still a potent beast :devil:


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## kaichu dento (Feb 14, 2010)

Patriot said:


> I think all of them or great calibers in their own right and there is no "best." Each has attributes that make it special. The title goes to the .500 for energy, to the .460 for projectile speed and cartridge flexibility since it also fires .454 and .45 long colt, and to the .454 for its standardization and fine track record. My own personal favorite of these having shot all, the .460. It's new, fast and can fire .454. While I'd probably prefer the .500 for buffalo or in Africa I'm not in Africa and all of these have fantastic amounts of energy.
> 
> I like the .50AE but I've never been a fan of the Desert Eagle. For me it doesn't fit a role that another pistol can't do better. It feels massive and clumsy unlike some large caliber wheel guns that still feel elegant. That's just the nature of stacking a row of huge cartridges inside of a magazine, inside of a pistol grip, instead of a cylinder. There's just no way around the physics there.
> 
> ...





Patriot said:


> It's not that it's foolish Ninjaz but there are better choices starting with the additional energy provided by the popular .44 mag. It has been a mainstay sidearm caliber in the Alaskan back county for decades.
> 
> The romanticism of the .50 cal is probably also overstated since all it means is that the bore is a half inch in diameter. In other words, you can have a .50cal blowgun, paintball gun, musket, .500S&W or .50BMG. All are completely different and the term .50 cal is only going to be impressive to the layman that heard of the term in a movie.
> 
> ...


Patriot, as usual your posts are excellent! The best of this thread so far and I finally got to hear from someone who had shot all of them! Keep up the great work as this is the kind of stuff I was really hoping to see here!


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## C.F.Burgess Battery (Feb 14, 2010)

Not much of a Hand Cannon fan ... the good ol' .45Auto is my fav ...

And my .45 SAA Colt wheelgun is pretty sweet ....

I do love my AR15 .458 SOCOM though !!
I guess I could build a .458 SOCOM AR15 pistol , though ... hmmmm...


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## circa (Feb 14, 2010)

You forgot the .600!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfeifer_Zeliska_.600_Nitro_Express_revolver


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## Ninjaz7 (Feb 14, 2010)

Great input guys...so the 454 would be the least impact to the hands...and the least powerful weapon to trust against a black bear(yes,they can get mean without a killing shot)would probably be a .44 Mag.


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## kaichu dento (Feb 14, 2010)

circa said:


> You forgot the .600!
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfeifer_Zeliska_.600_Nitro_Express_revolver


I didn't even know it existed, but at $16,000 it wouldn't have made this list of readily available calibers. Sorry...


C.F.Burgess Battery said:


> Not much of a Hand Cannon fan ... the good ol' .45Auto is my fav ...
> 
> And my .45 SAA Colt wheelgun is pretty sweet ....


Completely different purposes, but yes, pretty popular.


Ninjaz7 said:


> Great input guys...so the 454 would be the least impact to the hands...and the least powerful weapon to trust against a black bear(yes,they can get mean without a killing shot)would probably be a .44 Mag.


The .454 is very stiff, and to some severe even, but not so that you can't get accustomed to it. For black bear .357 isn't out of the question, but the .44 gives a greater degree of safety, provided you do your part concerning placement. Everything I've heard suggests that the .460 is going to be more manageable, while providing much greater impact. Did you read Patriot's posts above. I really want a .460 but am also pretty happy with my .44 Super Redhawk.


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## wyager (Feb 14, 2010)

QtrHorse said:


> For me, my .44Mag is much more punishing to my hand than a .50 DE. Now the .454 was just not for me in a short revolver. It was brutal to my hand. It was not even fun to shoot at all.
> 
> My .45LC seems to have half the recoil that my .44Mag has even though the .45LC has a shorter barrel.



.50 DE? Never heard of it... .50 AE sounds cool though! J/K I make that mistake all the time. People on this thread keep calling it that... The biggest round I've shot is a .44 magnum, boy, you really can't limp-wrist that stuff! I still have to try anything above that, you guys make it sound like everyday ammunition! 

will


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## windstrings (Feb 14, 2010)

Yes, all this changes perspective.. I don't own enough guns "especially pistols" to buy something I really can't use because its too punishing.

I wasn't aware the tragectory was so poor on the DE and the fps ratings were so low.

sounds great for hammering something up close but I'm not fond of blunted bullets for close in but rather like bullets that reach out.

Which would you guys recommend for a flat trajectory that has power but not so much that it get uncomfortable?

I know that varies as some guns are smoother and kinder than others yet perform as good or better.

I'm not really looking for a concealed weapon but rather a pistol that could double as a deer rifle "so to speak" as to what it can do.

I don't expect to be making 400 yard shots, but up to 200 with a scope and a nice long barrel may be nice!


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## kaichu dento (Feb 14, 2010)

windstrings said:


> Which would you guys recommend for a flat trajectory that has power but not so much that it get uncomfortable?
> 
> I know that varies as some guns are smoother and kinder than others yet perform as good or better.
> 
> I'm not really looking for a concealed weapon but rather a pistol that could double as a deer rifle "so to speak" as to what it can do.


Sounds like you really want to look into the .460 XVR which should be both milder in felt recoil than the .454 and very, very flat shooting.

Nice read on it here...


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## Ninjaz7 (Feb 14, 2010)

Exactly Windstrings...I would like to find that pistol that one could fire multiple rounds and not have to worry about sore wrists,yet drop a bear at 75 yds or better...I'm going to my buddys range soon to fire a few diffrent weapons.Hopefully he or his boss own a .460 or something compatible to fire,I'm no wuss but when I own a weapon I like to become accurate with it and in turn usually flowing many rounds threw it to be so.Thanks guys ...really enjoyin this thread :thumbsup:.


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## Patriot (Feb 14, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *Ninjaz7*
> 
> 
> _Great input guys...so the 454 would be the least impact to the hands...and the least powerful weapon to trust against a black bear(yes,they can get mean without a killing shot)would probably be a .44 Mag. _





kaichu dento said:


> The .454 is very stiff, and to some severe even, but not so that you can't get accustomed to it. For black bear .357 isn't out of the question, but the .44 gives a greater degree of safety, provided you do your part concerning placement. Everything I've heard suggests that the .460 is going to be more manageable, while providing much greater impact. Did you read Patriot's posts above. I really want a .460 but am also pretty happy with my .44 Super Redhawk.




Thank you for the very nice words kaichu dento. Also I completely agree with your response to Ninjaz7. .357 is a fine round for black bear country. Most hunters will say to use 158gr. or heavier though which is in contrast to the new wave of lighter .357 personal protection rounds. 





> *wyager*
> .50 DE? Never heard of it... .50 AE sounds cool though! J/K I make that mistake all the time. People on this thread keep calling it that...


".50 DE" is generally acceptable if you intend to denote both the caliber and make in one phrase. Now, I wouldn't say that I was loading my magazines up with ".50 DE" though. 



> Qtrhorse
> For me, my .44Mag is much more punishing to my hand than a .50 DE. Now the .454 was just not for me in a short revolver. It was brutal to my hand. It was not even fun to shoot at all.


It all depends on what firearm you're shooting the .44Mag through. Obviously a S&W 629PD is going to feel ferocious compared to a long barreled Super Blackhawk with Pachmayr grips. Likewise, the .44Mag through and .44mag chambered DE is going to have substantially less recoil than the .50AE. Generally speaking, with factory loads, most people will say that the .50AE through the DE has more perceived and actual recoil than a 6" model 29 S&W. That's been my experience anyhow. Still, if you were shooting a very light .44mag, like the PD, with full loads and wood grips, I can understand your experience. 





> Bullzeyebill
> Shooting comparable power loads to the 44Mag in the 45LC?


I doubt he's refering to comparable power loads Bill, but that's part of the point here. The original standard .45LC is anemic compared to the 44mag. Here's a good rule of thumb when talking about calibers in this context; only consider common factory loadings and pressures in common or original chambers. In other words, you wouldn't really want to try "full horse," semi-custom Buffalo Bore ammo in a 1st gen Colt SAA.  There's always going custom and semi-custom configurations of original calibers and designs but if you walk into a gun shop and purchase off the shelf guns and ammo, that's sort of the context one must consider here. 





> Windy
> Yes, all this changes perspective.. I don't own enough guns "especially pistols" to buy something I really can't use because its too punishing.
> 
> I wasn't aware the tragectory was so poor on the DE and the fps ratings were so low. Sounds great for hammering something up close but I'm not fond of blunted bullets for close in but rather like bullets that reach out.
> ...


Hey Windy :wave: 

1)The velocity of the .50AE is not typically considered slow by any means. It's moving at very high velocity for pistol ammo. Also, the trajectory is relatively flat by the same token. Remember, you're comparing a group of thoroughbreds with each other in this selection, not race horses to donkeys. Yes, the 454 and .460 have a bit of an advantage here but in practical application, say a hunting role, the difference is negligible. All of the bullets discussed here are generally going to be "blunt nosed" with the exception of certain specifically designed .460 bullets. 

2)A 44mag with 200 grain bullets traveling at about 1500+ is going to shoot flat but probably won't be terribly uncomfortable. Again, I'd have to know what you're using as a standard measurement for comfort to start with though.

3)Again, the .44mag would make a fine deer hunting round but so would the .357mag.

4)Long range pistol gunning is a lot of fun and the smaller calibers like .357 and .44mag are very capable of making pie plate hits at 200 yards in the field if the shooter does their part. The king of long range factory pistol calibers in the .460 S&W but you are talking about the extreme range of the spectrum now. The upper range of most hand cannon velocities rarely exceeds 1800fps while the .460 will do 2200+fps with 200gr bullets and progressive rifling.


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## QtrHorse (Feb 14, 2010)

Patriot said:


> It all depends on what firearm you're shooting the .44Mag through. Obviously a S&W 629PD is going to feel ferocious compared to a long barreled Super Blackhawk with Pachmayr grips. Likewise, the .44Mag through and .44mag chambered DE is going to have substantially less recoil than the .50AE. Generally speaking, with factory loads, most people will say that the .50AE through the DE has more perceived and actual recoil than a 6" model 29 S&W. That's been my experience anyhow. Still, if you were shooting a very light .44mag, like the PD, with full loads and wood grips, I can understand your experience.


 
Yes, it is not a heavy gun and it has wooden grips. It would not be the gun it is if it had anything other than wooden grips.




Patriot said:


> I doubt he's refering to comparable power loads Bill, but that's part of the point here. The original standard .45LC is anemic compared to the 44mag. Here's a good rule of thumb when talking about calibers in this context; only consider common factory loadings and pressures in common or original chambers. In other words, you wouldn't really want to try "full horse," semi-custom Buffalo Bore ammo in a 1st gen Colt SAA.  There's always going custom and semi-custom configurations of original calibers and designs but if you walk into a gun shop and purchase off the shelf guns and ammo, that's sort of the context one must consider here.


 
They were not comparable loads.


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 15, 2010)

Patriot said:


> I doubt he's refering to comparable power loads Bill, but that's part of the point here. The original standard .45LC is anemic compared to the 44mag. Here's a good rule of thumb when talking about calibers in this context; only consider common factory loadings and pressures in common or original chambers. In other words, you wouldn't really want to try "full horse," semi-custom Buffalo Bore ammo in a 1st gen Colt SAA.  There's always going custom and semi-custom configurations of original calibers and designs but if you walk into a gun shop and purchase off the shelf guns and ammo, that's sort of the context one must consider here.



I was thinking +P+ 45 cal rounds fired in a heavy duty revolver such as the Ruger single action 45. Ross Seyfred (sp?) touted that the 45 Ruger single action with some stiff loads would outdo the 44 mag. He was a believer in bullet diameter and a nice hardcast heavy lead bullet at about 300 grs in 45 cal. Somehow the 300 gr 45 always exceeded the 44 Mag's 300 gr velocity, and at a reasonable pressure level.

Bill


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## Kestrel (Feb 15, 2010)

Patriot said:


> .357 is a fine round for black bear country. Most hunters will say to use 158gr. or heavier though which is in contrast to the new wave of lighter .357 personal protection rounds


If I was carrying a .357 in bear country, last time I looked (a while ago) there were some great *180 grain hard cast loads with a large (flat) meplat* that would probably go all the way through a small-to-medium-sized bear, while hopefully anchoring it by breaking shoulders, spine, or hips along the way. This is a theoretical statement (as I have no real wish to test this), since I believe that load has comparable sectional density to the 300 grain .44 mag - one of those hard-cast loads should be able to do that while breaking comparable bones along the way, although it will be naturally punching a larger hole while in transit. The only .44 load I ever carried in bear country were 300 grainers, now I'm guessing that ~320's might be available from some of the specialty shops. My brother used to carry hard-cast .44 *340* *grainers* he handloaded to a chronographed 1300 fps - he described that load as 'pretty stout'.



Patriot said:


> Long range pistol gunning is a lot of fun and the smaller calibers like .357 and .44mag are very capable of making pie plate hits at 200 yards in the field if the shooter does their part.


Back when I was shooting a lot of .38's (like 150 rounds every weekend) w/ 148gr HBWC's & 2.5 grains of Bullseye (a very light load, something like a chronographed 650-700 fps IIRC) I had a ball hitting good-sized steel targets at a maximum of 175 yards range. Stability would be lost at 200 yards and accuracy dropped off dramatically. Very fun stuff.


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## windstrings (Feb 15, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> Sounds like you really want to look into the .460 XVR which should be both milder in felt recoil than the .454 and very, very flat shooting.
> 
> Nice read on it here...




that is indeed a nice read!...While I"m not fond of revolvers, it fits the specs of what i was hoping for!



> *The .460 as shown is 2.25 inches in length, and has a muzzle velocity of 2,200 feet per second.*





> The Hornady statistics were a real eye-popper. With a stated muzzle velocity of 2,200 feet per second, the bullet sighted 1.9 inches high at 50 yards would be 2.4 inches high at 100 yards, dead point of aim at 150 yards and 6.3 inches low at 200 yards.



Sounds like its got a tad more kick than the .50.


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## Fulgeo (Feb 15, 2010)

Just wanted to chime in and say the .50 AE is a ***** cat of an auto to shoot, just about as heavy as an auto can get. I owned a Taurus .454 in the past and it is the only handgun I have ever sold in my life. I put 50 300g full power loads thru it at one time and found it to be very unpleasant. I found a good home for it and took the proceeds and purchased a .44 S&W 629 with a 5" barrel and never looked back. I love the .44 S&W. I am a reloader so making good economical target and or hunting rounds is not an issue. I currently own 9 hand guns. When the S&W .500 came out I took a good look at it but the thing that turned me off was the shear weight of it. The thing loaded weights close to 5 pounds. At that weight if I was worried about bear and wanted to carry something "lite" I would be carrying a 12 gauge pump with slugs or a small 45-70 carbine. Back to the point thou if I wanted to buy an uber caliber pistol just for the fun of shooting it I would go ahead and get the S&W .500. Oh and hey the most unpleasant recoil I have ever felt has come from my .357 S&W 340PD.


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## windstrings (Feb 15, 2010)

As much as these things cost and it seems near impossible to take a gun back once its been shot... I would have to shoot one first.

I live near Dallas "DFW gunrange" and I understand they will let you shoot before you buy.....

I"m not fond of buyers remorse when it cost close to 2K.


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## kaichu dento (Feb 15, 2010)

We've got .460 XVR's at Fred Meyer in Fairbanks for just under a grand. Probably because this is dangerous game country, or at least large parts of it are, and there is probably a higher per capita desire to own a large caliber EDC! 

If your prices in Texas are that high, you could fly up here and take one home to save on the purchase price!


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## windstrings (Feb 15, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> We've got .460 XVR's at Fred Meyer in Fairbanks for just under a grand. Probably because this is dangerous game country, or at least large parts of it are, and there is probably a higher per capita desire to own a large caliber EDC!
> 
> If your prices in Texas are that high, you could fly up here and take one home to save on the purchase price!




Wow!.. I was just assuming it would be on par with the .50 AE... but I didn't check.....

Humm..... I would have to warm up to the idea of a revolver.


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## windstrings (Feb 15, 2010)

Ah.. your right.. definitely a cool looking revolver!

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0076845217463a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&Ntk=Product_liberal&QueryText=.460+XVR&sort=all&Go.y=8&N=0&Nty=1&hasJS=true&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form23&Go.x=13

So what is it about the Desert Eagle that demands almost twice the price?.... just being an Auto?..... the name "50 Caliber" smooth action? or a combination?
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t.../en/common/search/search-box.jsp.form1&Go.x=0

Geez.. I could just about get that with my Cabelas points alone!


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## kaichu dento (Feb 15, 2010)

Just to throw out a wild guess, lower number of sales? I never liked the Desert Eagles for their sheer hugeness although I did enjoy shooting them.


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## wyager (Feb 15, 2010)

windstrings said:


> Ah.. your right.. definitely a cool looking revolver!
> 
> http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...n/common/search/search-box.jsp.form23&Go.x=13
> 
> ...



It's super overrated. That's why. Every damn movie out there has characters using the desert eagle, because most people out there think that a decently sized handgun is too small. When they see the boondock saints using extended deagles with extended clipz or 50 cent busting a cap with one, they all think  wow, I want one of those! :thumbsdow There is an artificially high demand, plus there is the "bling" factor associated because they market the titanium nitride coated one as being a "golden" desert eagle or "gold plated" desert eagle, and every video game does the same. I'm not saying it's a bad gun, just that they market it really hard and sell it at really high prices.

will


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## Patriot (Feb 15, 2010)

windstrings said:


> So what is it about the Desert Eagle that demands almost twice the price?.... just being an Auto?..... the name "50 Caliber" smooth action? or a combination?




Windy, it's mainly due to production costs. It's more complicated, has more moving parts, more machining, and more fitting in every area other than the trigger, where the X-frame Smith has more fitting. Mark-up on firearms is very consistent from manufacturer to wholesale and wholesale to retail. It's also surprisingly that there's not very much profit in them, therefore they have to sell a lot of them. So, if one desired and auto that shoots high energy rounds, he has to pay the auto price. There's much more value associated with the revolver. The .460 is only going to have less recoil with one or two factory loadings. As you go up in bullet weight an start getting up into maximum load territory, it will have more recoil than a .454. 

A good rule of thumb for estimating recoil it to take the bullet weight and multiply it times the velocity and compare that number with other dissimilar calibers. A good way to determine the upper limits is to simply look as power capacity or how much power the empty case itself will hold.


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## windstrings (Feb 15, 2010)

Patriot said:


> Windy, it's mainly due to production costs. It's more complicated, has more moving parts, more machining, and more fitting in every area other than the trigger, where the X-frame Smith has more fitting. Mark-up on firearms is very consistent from manufacturer to wholesale and wholesale to retail. It's also surprisingly that there's not very much profit in them, therefore they have to sell a lot of them.



I expect its a matter of both.... hype, glory, fame from the movies, due to expense there aren't many orders and because there's not many orders the price stays up "a vicious cycle", along with all the stuff you mentioned too Patriot.

I do like the flatter trajectory and 3 choices of bullets.

I know Auto's are more complex to get to work smoothly.
I have a Stainless .22 Mk III and its a 545.00 gun but it works flawlessly. I took the handle off and took my dremel and polished it up to where you would swear its nickel plated as it looks like a mirror.

I've read a lot about headaches with other automatics.. especially if the ammo is dirty.

Cleaning a "non" auto is easier as all the powder goes forward rather than getting blown backwards.

I do like that the price is far less... I could put a scope, mounts etc and still be cheaper than the DE.

Only problem is if I switched ammo, it would throw my sightings off.
I would have to see if I could tolerate the higher power and would want that if possible.

It would be too cool to go through the bushes with a pistol instead of a long rifle.... I love my rife, but a pistol that could shoot like a rifle would be a new experience.

I"m starting to get excited about this.... thats always a bad sign! :naughty:


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## Patriot (Feb 16, 2010)

Kestrel said:


> Back when I was shooting a lot of .38's (like 150 rounds every weekend) w/ 148gr HBWC's & 2.5 grains of Bullseye (a very light load, something like a chronographed 650-700 fps IIRC) I had a ball hitting good-sized steel targets at a maximum of 175 yards range. Stability would be lost at 200 yards and accuracy dropped off dramatically. Very fun stuff.





Nice Kestrel! Further examples of how distance can be overcome with good ammo consistency and hold over. My first .38 revolver was a stainless Rossi 2" and 100 yards shots on 2 liter sized bottle targets became quite do-able with some Kentucky windage and hold-over even while shooting off hand. Although I haven't been doing that lately I've been shooting pretty far with my MkIII Hunter, similar to what Windstrings is shooting. Even the little .22LR does quite well once hold over and zero is sorted out.






> Windstrings
> Only problem is if I switched ammo, it would throw my sightings off.
> I would have to see if I could tolerate the higher power and would want that if possible.



....and of course that's going to be the case with everything, including rifles. Usually the differences are small depending on the size, range of the target and ammo difference. In other words, if you're shooting bottles at 50 yards it's probably not going to matter. At longer range you'll just use scope presets (if the optic is high quality and repeatable) to switch between different known ammo types.


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## windstrings (Feb 16, 2010)

Patriot said:


> ....and of course that's going to be the case with everything, including rifles. Usually the differences are small depending on the size, range of the target and ammo difference. In other words, if you're shooting bottles at 50 yards it's probably not going to matter. At longer range you'll just use scope presets (if the optic is high quality and repeatable) to switch between different known ammo types.



That versatility is one of the reasons I bought the Rugur Mk III.... I have it sighted in with the most powerful high velocity stuff I can find "Aquila". (1750 fps)
But now I can drop down velocity and aim high... LOL! if I use the weaker stuff... but why would I do that? 

Going with less grains can give you flatter trajectory and less kick while maintaining knockdown "as long as you still have penetration".... 

At any rate, its like owning 3 different guns in one depending on what your need when you can shoot different ammo velocities, grains, etc.

For someone who doesn't have a case full of guns, thats a good consideration... another reason I like my 30-06.. I can go from 55grains to 220.


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## nubus (Feb 16, 2010)

As to the title, 460 if I had to choose.
Because I believe in function over many other aspects.
You can shoot 454 and 45LC in a 460, a huge range of pressures and loads.
Easy plinkin with lead 45LC, to serious dangerous game knockdown with 460.
My 2 cents.


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## windstrings (Feb 18, 2010)

I talked to a gunsmith I know and he thinks it would be terrible punishment on the wrist and I should choose smaller....

But like you say... its like buying 3 guns in one.... One could always choose the other loads and only go big if they really wanted to do something special.

Verses going 300grain, "nearly 2000fps" *one could use the 200 grain "pointed" "2200 fps" and I would think kick would be manageable and have a very nice trajectory with that weight and velocity.*


> Premium components and propellants team with Hornady's 200-gr. FTX bullets to produce a hard-hitting, flat-shooting handgun round capable of taking game out to 200 yards. These bullets leave the barrel at 2,200 fps and still retain more than 1,300 ft.-lbs. of energy at 100 yards.


I just want to be able to take down a deer at the greatest distance I can... that doesn't need much grains at all.


Anyone have any comments on what barrel to choose?

Looks like it comes with an 8 3/8 inch barrel.



> *Model 460XVR* – Able to shoot a 200-grain bullet at 2,330 fps, it produces the highest velocities of any revolver in the world. Set your point of impact for 200 yards and harvest game from 1 to 250 yards with no hold over. Can also shoot .45 Colt and .454 Casull cartridges.


Definitely a cool looking Gun no doubt!






200 gr .460 S&W Hornady Handgun Cartridge










> On the 4th I shot five off (in a a safe direction) during our fireworks show and more than a few people said it was the best part of the evening, massive flame blowing out of the barrel and then sucking itself back down into the barrel. The most fun you can have with your clothes on!!





> This ammunition is extremely clean, accurate, and powerful, and is very pleasant to shoot (only kicks slightly harder than a .50AE Desert Eagle) - I punched a 4-inch group at 15 yards off hand in double action mode easily with this ammunition with an 8.375" 460XVR. Wear ear plugs and jam them deep into your ears as the noise is extreme; the muzzle flash is also impressive - about 2 feet wide and 3 feet long!


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## kaichu dento (Feb 18, 2010)

For your goal of deer hunting you'd probably be best served by the longer barrel, but there is the shorter 5" barreled .460 V, which is the one I've been wanting. 
Here's a review of it too.


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## Ninjaz7 (Feb 18, 2010)

A very versitle pistol...why would you own a 454 then?


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## Hamilton Felix (Feb 18, 2010)

I have a Freedom Arms Field Grade .454 revolver, and it's ported. It is actually not that bad to shoot. The smooth single action grip rolls up in your hand. 

My S&W .44 magnum Mountain Gun, with its light profile 4" barrel and Pachmayr "Gripper," is much more painful with heavy loads. It's nice to carry, but shooting??? When one turns loose the heavily loaded 300 grain cast "bear load" that used to be sold by Pioneer Ammo in Noxon, MT, it's obvious that something exciting has happened in one's hand! 

I am interested in all of the "super mags," my catch-all name for the calibers above .44 magnum. And if post-divorce life ever again allows me signicant disposable income, I'd like a .500 S&W. But what I appreciate about the Freedom Arms .454 is that it's "normal" sized. It's not as bulky as a Super Redhawk, as huge as the X-frame Smith. It's just a "normal" single action, albeit abnormally well made and having only 5 chambers. If I had not lucked into genuine Freedom Arms leather at a show, I know the gun would fit any good standard single action holster.

For carrying, I go with the tried and true 1911 in .45 ACP, a 4" Kimber Pro Carry these days. 

The only Desert Eagle I've shot was a .44 magnum. Much like the Wildey I owned, it was not bad to shoot, but had a grip ridiculously oversized for anyone with normal hands. 

I like all big bangers (try an 18 lb. .50 BMG singleshot bullpup, then compare with the big Barrett 82 that's a pussycat to shoot - and my heavily handloaded Siamese Mauser .45-70 slammed me harder than either of those). But I'll go with a 1911 for a daily carry PDW, and the beautiful Freedom Arms or the handier S&W Mountain Gun for field use. For now, I'll only dream of that S&W .500 magnum and some sort of chest holster to carry it in...


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## Kestrel (Feb 18, 2010)

Hamilton Felix said:


> The only Desert Eagle I've shot was a .44 magnum. Much like the Wildey I owned, it was not bad to shoot, but had a grip ridiculously oversized for anyone with normal hands.


That was my experience with the DE .44 Mag as well - that grip was way too large for me, and I'd say that I have average-sized hands at least.

I've handled a number of the large handguns by now and the only ones that really seemed to feel good in my hands were the S&W .44 Mag (629) and the Ruger Super Redhawk. :shrug: I'm a bit skeptical of the folks here who are 'choosing' the S&W .460 over the .454, yes it's 'backward compatible', but although I've had a lot of fun 'plinking' with 360-grain loads in my .454, I have little desire to shoot the .460, especially if there is a chance of not having hearing protection i.e. when these cannons are actually needed. 



Question:
How many people here are actually shooting their .460's vs how many are shooting their .454's?


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## windstrings (Feb 18, 2010)

Which one has worse kick? a .454 or .460 with 200gr bullet and 8 3/8 barrel?

I"m diggin the trajectory options more than anything.


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## Patriot (Feb 18, 2010)

Ninjaz7 said:


> A very versitle pistol...why would you own a 454 then?




Shorter cylinder, smaller oal. slightly lighter, more model offerings.


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## Patriot (Feb 18, 2010)

windstrings said:


> Which one has worse kick? a .454 or .460 with 200gr bullet and 8 3/8 barrel?




They'll be about the same Windy if the bullet weight and velocity is the same. The .454 won't sail the the 200gr bullet as fast though so the 460 will have more recoil at at max loads. The .454 typically isn't fired with 200gr loads though and btw firing 200gr bullets is fast but inefficient, kind of like a top fuel dragster.




> *Kestrel
> That was my experience with the DE .44 Mag as well - that grip was way* too large for me, and I'd say that I have average-sized hands at least.


Boy, you ain't kidding! 

Here's the DE .50 in my medium sized hand. Note the girth near the bottom of the grip! The DE is the opposite of elegance imo. Still, I guess that I can appreciate it for it's uniqueness. I just tire sometimes over the Hollywood hype about it.









Sorry folks, haven't had time to take these to the range as I'm training for a shotgun event that's coming up. Here's a few pics to hold you over until I can post some shooting vids. Also, sorry about the quality but my Canon is down at the moment. Had to shoot these with my cell phone.

.460 top .500 below.





.460 and .500





left to right, .500 .460 .454 .50


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## Hamilton Felix (Feb 19, 2010)

Those are big beautiful revolvers. :twothumbs

There are other factors to "perceived recoil," beyond the simple math of bullet weight and velocity. A note there: Part of recoil is caused by the blast of gas that pushes the bullet -- and makes muzzle brakes work if you have them. The same rifle in .300 Win mag and .300 Weatherby may not start a given bullet all that much faster in the Weatherby version, but the Weatherby round will have much more obnoxious "kick," at least in part from the extra gas it discharges. 

The shape of that big revolver, grip design, bore height above shooter's hand, and more will make a difference. The shooter makes a difference, too. I've heard the 1911 .45 ACP compared to the medium frame .357 magnum, but I perceive its recoil as much less. Some people are distracted by the slide on auto pistols, others don't notice it. 

But kelmo gave me good idea. My Beloved wears a 42G and still has the .357 she carried on duty when she was in the LEO game. I think I'll let her try my Freedom arms, and enjoy the jiggle... :thumbsup:


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## windstrings (Feb 19, 2010)

Patriot said:


> and btw firing 200gr bullets is fast but inefficient, kind of like a top fuel dragster.



Hence the two foot wide flame X 3 foot long!... the bullet escapes with extra powder left to burn.

The dragster was a good comparison!

Those are some beautiful pistols!.. I appreciate the pic of the DE.... I agree, you need a really big hand to handle that well, otherwise I don't think the kick energy would distribute well in your hand.

I'm amazed blunt nose bullets are as accurate as they are... just doesn't make sense for air foil.
But if the range is close enough, I understand you want the energy to dissipate fast rather than pass through.


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## Patriot (Feb 19, 2010)

windstrings said:


> I'm amazed blunt nose bullets are as accurate as they are... just doesn't make sense for air foil. But if the range is close enough, I understand you want the energy to dissipate fast rather than pass through.




It's a matter of cartridge over all length (oal). If you make them pointed they have to be longer if they're to be the same weight. Ballistically they deliver more impact and are as accurate as any round nose bullet, because they've been stabilized. Also, since pistol rounds are traveling relatively slow, the flat noses don't induce a terrible amount of drag either. For example a 230gr round nose launched at 1500fps will slow to 1200fps at 100m. A 230gr flat point launched at 1500fps will slow to 1182fps at 100m. Very little difference.


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## alpg88 (Feb 19, 2010)

i,m surprised nobody mentioned 480 ruger.

too bad can't contribute to the thread , my biggest cal. is 44mag, and it is a marlin rifle.


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## kaichu dento (Feb 19, 2010)

alpg88 said:


> i,m surprised nobody mentioned 480 ruger.
> 
> too bad can't contribute to the thread , my biggest cal. is 44mag, and it is a marlin rifle.


To tell the truth I forgot it even existed! I'd been interested in getting one back when they were new but wasn't encouraged by the reviews. Wouldn't be surprised if Patriot could update us on it too. 

Marlin lever in .44 mag is a classic! :twothumbs


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## Kestrel (Feb 20, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> Marlin lever in .44 mag is a classic! :twothumbs


A big *+2* on that, I have one of the earlier .44's without the cross-bolt safety and just love it, it's the smoothest lever action I have ever handled (besides the comparable one my friend has of course). :twothumbs


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## Patriot (Feb 20, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> Wouldn't be surprised if Patriot could update us on it too.





Sorry, can't contribute anything the the .480 Ruger. Don't own one and have never even fired one.  I have nothing against it but it hasn't taken on a large following yet. There are so many calibers with so little separating them these days that unless it fills a gap or takes the title at something, kind of like the .40S&W did, sometimes they're slow to catch on.


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## Starlight (Feb 21, 2010)

The 480 Ruger is basically a 475 Linebaugh "short". 1.285" case length versus 1.405". They use the same .475" bullets. I have (2) 475's and they both shoot well. One is Freedom Arms and the other is Magnum Research. Even though the Freedom Arms is a better made, tighter pistol, the cheaper Magnum Research actually is more accurate. 475 Linebaugh is an excellent hunting cartridge and I understand that it penetrates better than any of the 50's.


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## kaichu dento (Feb 21, 2010)

I forgot about the .475 Linebaugh, even though it was one of the calibers I was considering as a replacement for my .454 Casull. 

About the accuracy on those two, isn't it one of the biggest frustrations when a better made piece isn't capable the same accuracy as other companies less expensive products.

I used to have a Sterling .22 that my friend was able to push pop cans all over the place with in the 30' - 50' range. I couldn't but that tiny pistol was consistent enough that he was able to make it hit where he wanted.


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## dudemar (Feb 21, 2010)

The first gun I ever bought was a .44 Desert Eagle, and I loved shooting every round out of it.:devil: I regret selling it though, but someday it will be in my possession again. I was thinking about converting it to .50. Just buy a .50 barrel and magazine and you're good to go. The extractor will fit the AE round, so no need to swap that. I have big hands so grip was no a big issue, in fact I shot it one handed quite frequently (also engaged/disengaged the safety with my thumb).

The one thing that detracted me from shooting it was the expensive ammo. I understood the DE didn't take reloads too well, so I didn't want to risk breaking a $1000+ handgun. At the time I owned it I was looking for frangible rounds but couldn't find any in .44 Rem.


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## kaichu dento (Feb 22, 2010)

dudemar said:


> The first gun I ever bought was a .44 Desert Eagle, and I loved shooting every round out of it.:devil: I regret selling it though, but someday it will be in my possession again. I was thinking about converting it to .50. Just buy a .50 barrel and magazine and you're good to go. The extractor will fit the AE round, so no need to swap that. I have big hands so grip was no a big issue, in fact I shot it one handed quite frequently (also engaged/disengaged the safety with my thumb).
> 
> The one thing that detracted me from shooting it was the expensive ammo. I understood the DE didn't take reloads too well, so I didn't want to risk breaking a $1000+ handgun. At the time I owned it I was looking for frangible rounds but couldn't find any in .44 Rem.


I always enjoyed shooting the Desert Eagle and had no problem with it one handed, but it was always like I had my hand wrapped up to the front strap, and not holding it, which just doesn't feel as secure as having it completely enclosed in your hand. 

The friend who had the Desert Eagle always did his own reloads, whether they were going through his Dan Wesson or his Desert Eagle and I don't ever recall any problems being had. Just talking about it makes me want to go shoot one again!


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## dudemar (Feb 22, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> Just talking about it makes me want to go shoot one again!



They are "loads" of fun.:naughty:


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## Patriot (Feb 23, 2010)

Hopefully you'll own one again some time Dudemar.




dudemar said:


> At the time I owned it I was looking for frangible rounds but couldn't find any in .44 Rem.




Magsafe and Glaser have both made pre-fragmented .44 loads for a couple of decades now. I've fired them out of a model 29 at bottles of water and even carried them javalina hunting one year.


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## dudemar (Feb 25, 2010)

I should've been more specific, I was referring to the more recent development of the non-leaded "green" bullet. I got sick of handling lead, and when I used 9mm American Ammunition frangibles in my Glock cleaning it was a cinch.

This site is a great read, the 12th paragraph down describes the development:


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/frangible.htm


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## Patriot (Feb 25, 2010)

dudemar said:


> I should've been more specific, I was referring to the more recent development of the non-leaded "green" bullet. I got sick of handling lead, and when I used 9mm American Ammunition frangibles in my Glock cleaning it was a cinch.





....but the handling of jacketed ammunition doesn't result in exposure to lead. Also, jacketed ammo doesn't foul a bore any more than a non-leaded "green bullet" since both are jacketed. Exposure to lead would be from inhaling airborne lead particles on indoor ranges or eating food after handling exposed lead bullets (non-jacketed). Even the indoor risk is greatly reduced with modern HEPA filtration systems in properly equipped indoor ranges. 

Have you tested high for lead before, or do you have a reason to be overly concerned with lead exposure? I work with firearms and ammo and get tested every year but have never tested high before myself.


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## windstrings (Feb 25, 2010)

I agree, many of the concerns are political ploys for money and power.
I see them taking polydent off the market till they can make it without zinc.
Yet zinc is great for colds.... so to the folks with dentures catch more colds now?
Isn't zinc in every penny we touch, or not so anymore?

At any rate, I still hear people telling me not to put a pencil in my mouth because of lead poisoning and there isn't any lead in pencils anymore!

Many things we touch and breath are poisonous in higher doses.... included some of the life giving antibiotics we take and heart medicines etc.

I do get sick of hearing about green, when the only green they are thinking about is money!


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## mon90ey (Feb 25, 2010)

Ross SeyFried was (and may still be) a huge proponent of the .475 and .500 Linebaugh loads. For years he has advocated the many uses of the .45 Long Colt and its capabilities. I remember an article he wrote sometime back in the 1980's of his experiences in Austrailia, I believe, shooting ferral donkeys with these loads. As I remember, his favorite "pet" for these loads was either one or two of the Ruger Bisley Blackhawks, modified by Hamilton Bowen of Bowen Custom Arms of Louisville, Tn. As I recall, Bowen took a Standard Ruger Bisley chambered for a .45 Long Colt and replace the cylinder with a manufactured 5 round unfluted cylinder (to handle the extra pressure of the round), replaced the standard Ruger 71/2" barrel with a machined and rifled custom 5 or 5 1/2" barrel (my memory slips at this point) fitted with custom tritium sights. Bowen later went on to manufacture a model of this piece with Ivory grips in .475 and called it the Seyfried #13. As I recall, you could at one time send him a new Ruger Bisley in .45 long Colt, and for about $1700 or so dollars, he would build you one just like it. Seyfried love to shoot it, and I once heard he had actually taken Cape Buffalo with it, but you must remember, Elmer Keith was his mentor, and that is where his love of the big bores came from. This whole project started with an attempt to obtain rifle accuracy from a handgun, 1" groups at 100 yards, as described in the article at this link. The amazing thing is they actually did it.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=321&magid=24

I personally own or have owned Ruger Bisley Blackhawks in the following calibers: .41. mag, .44 mag., and .45 long colt, and I must say I have loved them all. They just seem to fit my hand. I have personal experience with both the .45 ACP and the .454 Casul, and have found them both to be fine firearms in every sense of the word. But I must admit, I love my Ruger Bisleys. I shoot a .300 gr. .44 mag loaded for about 1365 fps. (I don't load them myself, I have them loaded by a friend) when I deer hunt, and I absolutely love it. Even though I usually have my .300 weatherby with me, I very seldom fire it, preferring the challenge of the pistol as opposed to the rifle. As the BIG loads go, this .44 mag. load is sort of small, but there is no ther feeling like it when you touch off a round in the big bore handguns, IMHO. Of course, your mileage may vary.


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## mon90ey (Feb 25, 2010)

I believe I am mistaken on two points in my previous post:

1. The Seyfried #13 was a Bowen Custom conversion for Seyfried that was named by Seyfried himself, not by Hamilton Bowen.
2. That .44 mag. load I shoot is a .300 gr. swc loaded with 23 gr.s of H-110 for about 1330 fps., not 1365 fps. as I previously stated. (I must be getting old!)

I humbly stand corrected. 

Also, let me add the the barrel on the Seyfried #13 was, I'm told, a cut rifled 5 1/2'' Douglas Bull Barrel. I'm not sure what the spin was, somewhere between 1:12 and 1:18 I would think, and was very accurate at 25 yds.

By the way, Katchu, you would love this round and this handgun.


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## dudemar (Feb 25, 2010)

Patriot said:


> ....but the handling of jacketed ammunition doesn't result in exposure to lead. Also, jacketed ammo doesn't foul a bore any more than a non-leaded "green bullet" since both are jacketed. Exposure to lead would be from inhaling airborne lead particles on indoor ranges or eating food after handling exposed lead bullets (non-jacketed). Even the indoor risk is greatly reduced with modern HEPA filtration systems in properly equipped indoor ranges.
> 
> Have you tested high for lead before, or do you have a reason to be overly concerned with lead exposure? I work with firearms and ammo and get tested every year but have never tested high before myself.



There's no lead in the newer frangibles, what's there to lose?:shrug:



windstrings said:


> I agree, many of the concerns are political ploys for money and power.
> I see them taking polydent off the market till they can make it without zinc.
> Yet zinc is great for colds.... so to the folks with dentures catch more colds now?
> Isn't zinc in every penny we touch, or not so anymore?
> ...



I put "green" in quotes for a reason.


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## kaichu dento (Feb 25, 2010)

mon90ey said:


> I believe I am mistaken on two points in my previous post:
> 
> 1. The #13 Keith was a Bowen Custom conversion for Seyfried that was named by Seyfried himself, not by Hamilton Bowen.
> 2. That .44 mag. load I shoot is a .300 gr. swc loaded with 23 gr.s of H-110 for about 1330 fps., not 1365 fps. as I previously stated. (I must be getting old!)
> ...


I'm definitely a fan of heavy barrels and the benefits they offer in regards to reducing muzzle flip, perceived recoil and front sight movement!


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## william lafferty (Feb 26, 2010)

If one is trying to decide which of these guns to purchase, it seems to me that the purpose for buying the gun needs to be looked at. I owned two Freedom Arms 454's and bought them for bear defense while hiking. I also handloaded heavy cast bullets. The attraction of the .454 was simply the power and penetration when used with cast bullets.

Having said that, I never really liked the Freedom Arms guns. I found them difficult to shoot and slow to get into action. We devised something we called bear-drills, which was shooting at a bear-sized head on a back board at about ten yards, drawing from the holster, and imagining that the bear was charging. We couldn't get the target to bounce up and down like a bear, and it wouldn't growl or slobber as it sat there, but it was a close as we could come. Even in that situation, I was lucky to get off two shots at what I thought were the moments just before I would be devoured. I haven't fired any of the other .454 guns, the double actions, and I have no idea whether they are any easier or faster to shoot.

On the other hand, if you plan to shoot deer or stationary targets at some distance, situations where speed is not a consideration, the Freedom Arms gun may be fine. It is certainly accurate.

I am intrigued by Bullseyebill's comment about cat hunters using the Glock 10mm. The ballistics of the 10mm is identical to that of the .41 mag when loaded up to original speed. AND the Glock 10 mm is easy and fast to shoot. I wonder whether I would not have been better off with that gun and its 15 round magazine.


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## Patriot (Feb 26, 2010)

william lafferty said:


> I am intrigued by Bullseyebill's comment about cat hunters using the Glock 10mm. The ballistics of the 10mm is identical to that of the .41 mag when loaded up to original speed. AND the Glock 10 mm is easy and fast to shoot. I wonder whether I would not have been better off with that gun and its 15 round magazine.




I really like the 10mm and the Glock21. I own one and shoot it frequently. For black bear I think it would be great but I personally would feel undergunned with it in Alaska regardless of it's rate of fire. I'm with you, that I'd be packing a .454 or at the very least, the stiffest .44 mags I could load.







I handled a brand new Magnum Research BFR in .450 Marlin today. Quite the cannon and not priced to awfully bad either. 
http://www.magnumresearch.com/bfr_specs.asp


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## windstrings (Mar 1, 2010)

Ok.. enough of this nonsense..... I got you guys all beat!


Just follow me down the freeway and I'll show you how it works! :devil:


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## kaichu dento (Mar 2, 2010)

windstrings said:


> Ok.. enough of this nonsense..... I got you guys all beat!
> 
> 
> Just follow me down the freeway and I'll show you how it works! :devil:


I want to be there when you fire that bad boy up! When's dinner!


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## light1up (Mar 2, 2010)

500 smith. Only for this reason. Its huge. Its bad *** and almost a symbol of America when I look at it, well maybe at least Texas. Its fairly mainstream and by now it shouldnt go the way of the failed rounds. All the guns are great and one would be better than another in any given situation depending on your needs. Id say things like recoil, length, portability are a mute point here. Once you get that DE 50 locked down and do some accuracy test youll be sending that thing back to israel IMHO and experiences.


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## mr.snakeman (Mar 19, 2010)

This has been one fun thread to read. I´d really like to try the .460 and the .500 (I have tried a .454) but any chance to be able to do so here is downright impossible because of the way the gun license system is formulated (allowed calibers must be allowable in competition shooting events, something these two arn´t by any of the recognized shooting organizations here that I know of). I´ll just have to make do with developing more .44mag.-kicking loads for my Ruger Bisley (I´m not about to try any of them in my model P  :mecry.


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## windstrings (Mar 19, 2010)

mr.snakeman said:


> This has been one fun thread to read. I´d really like to try the .460 and the .500 (I have tried a .454) but any chance to be able to do so here is downright impossible because of the way the gun license system is formulated (allowed calibers must be allowable in competition shooting events, something these two arn´t by any of the recognized shooting organizations here that I know of). I´ll just have to make do with developing more .44mag.-kicking loads for my Ruger Bisley (I´m not about to try any of them in my model P  :mecry.


Aren't the other two "alternate" sizes allowable?... if any are.. that may be the ticket!


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## mr.snakeman (Mar 22, 2010)

windstrings said:


> Aren't the other two "alternate" sizes allowable?... if any are.. that may be the ticket!


Even if the .454 and the .45 Colt can be fired in the .460 if the caliber is stated ".460" by the maker then that is the caliber stated on the license and no police licensing section will approve a caliber for shooting purposes that is not on the "approved" list by the recognised shooting organizations, .45 being the largest allowed caliber (it might work if the license is for collecting but then it may never, repeat, never be fired-even for testing-by the owner or any other licensed shooter :shakehead).


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## nasa779 (Mar 25, 2010)

what about a .700 nitro express lol


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## windstrings (Mar 25, 2010)

nubus said:


> As to the title, 460 if I had to choose.
> Because I believe in function over many other aspects.
> You can shoot 454 and 45LC in a 460, a huge range of pressures and loads.
> Easy plinkin with lead 45LC, to serious dangerous game knockdown with 460.
> My 2 cents.




I still have not purchased but did finally get out to look at a nice selection at Cabelas.

I really appreciate the posts and insight many have offered.
As I reread the posts I realized how much I missed the first time... mostly because it was all overwhelming at first.
There really is a wealth of knowledge posted here.

Patriot has gotten several complements on his posts and I wish I were as good a writer, his along with several others has brought me to this still struggling conclusion.

I looked at many pistols today and while many were very nice for home use or moderate range, few I found I felt would give adequate trajectory to reach and have reasonable consistent accuracy at 100+ yards without killing my wrist.

I'm a medium frame kinda guy with fairly small wrists... wear 6.5 to 7.5 gloves, weigh about 180lbs and I felt the .460 was a lot of pistol!


What keeps bringing me back to it is the fact that many feel its a good shooter as far as kick and since the long colts will fit it may be smarter to get that with aspirations of moving up bigger if I can tolerate it later on.

I also handled the .44 Super Redhawk. I like the 9.5" barrel and figure it would sooth the kick even more as well as increase velocity a tad.
It seems more reasonable and ammo is plentiful and the kick should be moderate.

However, with the .44 Super Redhawk you have what you have.
But that may be ok if thats all the pistol I will ever want to shoot once I find out how the kick and feel is.

*If I get the .460 and find the .454 and .460 ammo is too nasty to shoot, I will be stuck with a .460 shooting long colt .45's which will not achieve the distances I was originally looking for.
*
The other thought was to shoot .460 ammo with 200 grain bullets.. that would be extremely fast and maybe the kick would be tolerable.
I wonder how the two compare with smaller bullets respectively.

The biggest negative to the .460 was its size.. while that would help with kick, its felt like it was made for a slightly bigger hand.... the middle of the last segment of my index finger of my right hand is where the trigger hit.
When cocked, it fit a little better.

I"m not super motivated by price the the .44 Super magnum is a bit cheaper.
So I boil it down to this question.

*Would the .460 shooting 200gr bullets be more reasonable or would I prefer the .44 Super Redhawk shooting 240gr bullets?
I didn't see smaller gr bullets for the .44.
* 
I even considered a 9mm but couldn't find one that looked like a long shooter with barrel length and adequate velocity... but there may be one.

I would appreciate any input someone may have.


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## kaichu dento (Mar 26, 2010)

If you're accustomed to shooting I wouldn't be too concerned about being able to handle the .460 as all accounts I've read/heard comparing it to the .454 have said that it was softer in recoil, presumably due to the muzzle brake.

I let a range of friends shoot my .454 when I had it and a couple of them were 12 and 14. The 12 year old thought it was interesting, but hard recoiling. The 14 year old wanted one, and neither of them were very big. The thing is to know how to hold a larger caliber and neither lock your arm, nor hold it too loosely and you're good to go! 

Another thing I love about the weight is that I'm a better shot with these barrel heavy guns because the front sight doesn't dance so much!

Something else to help confuse you more is that if you like the idea, the Super Redhawk is a piece of cake for a gunsmith to shorten!

I had mine shortened to 5.5" and it's much easier to carry if you're a small or medium frame and want it under your left arm like I carry mine. When it got shortened the annoying message on the side got removed and with the sight properly repositioned everyone that sees it wonders where I managed to find one!


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## Patriot (Mar 26, 2010)

windstrings said:


> *If I get the .460 and find the .454 and .460 ammo is too nasty to shoot, I will be stuck with a .460 shooting long colt .45's which will not achieve the distances I was originally looking for.
> *
> The other thought was to shoot .460 ammo with 200 grain bullets.. that would be extremely fast and maybe the kick would be tolerable.
> I wonder how the two compare with smaller bullets respectively.
> ...





Windy, if you can get to a range and rent or borrow a .44 Mag, that would be a great place to begin. That way you'll have a standard by which to measure all things against. In other words, if you find the recoil manageable, then the .454-.460 would certainly be worth considering. If the recoil is too much or right on the edge of preventing "shooting happiness" then you'll want to stay away from the calibers mentioned here. 

Shooting lighter bullets through a compensated barrel will decrease felt recoil. That's because there is more gas volume to operate the comp. Without a comp....it really just comes down to calculating "power factor." Multiply the weight of the projectile x the velocity to get a good idea of how two different loads will measure up with regards to felt recoil in the same gun. 

200 grain bullet x 2200 fps = 440,000 or "440 PF"
300 grain bullet x 1500 fps = 450,000 or "450 PF"

These two loads will provide a similar, but not exact, recoil impulse in a non-compensated gun. A compensator or "magna-porting" will allow you to fire larger calibers more comfortably.

As for the .460 grip size and fit. I'll assume you're referring to an X-Frame S&W but the middle of the last finger pad isn't terrible for a large double action revolver. When you shoot single action that's exactly where you want the trigger to fall anyway. The X-Frame was also designed to fit a medium sized hand, which is what I have, and is actually the same size as the N-Frame S&W.





> Windy
> *Would the .460 shooting 200gr bullets be more reasonable or would I prefer the .44 Super Redhawk shooting 240gr bullets?
> I didn't see smaller gr bullets for the .44.*


440 Power Factor compared to a 312 Power Factor with standard loads. You can figure that by percentage if you like but the .460 will have more recoil....30% or so. You can fire .44 Special through .44mag revolvers if you want for reduced recoil. They're quite mellow actually.





> Windy
> I even considered a 9mm but couldn't find one that looked like a long shooter with barrel length and adequate velocity... but there may be one.
> 
> I would appreciate any input someone may have.


The 9mm is in a completely different universe from these others as you know. The .357 would probably be your lower limit but is an excellent caliber if you just want "magnum" power with a flat trajectory. It's best taken advantage of by the hand loader but it's an outstanding and popular round that will never go away due to it's commonality and popularity. 125 grain bullets are very fast when loaded to energetic pressures.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=103


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## windstrings (Mar 26, 2010)

It sounds like the .44 would be cheaper and when using the Ruger Super Redhawk I can get ammo easy and poss cheaper and use heavy loads to achieve much of the same trajectory of the .460.
Another plus of the Redhawk is durability of the rugers.
Both are beautiful guns.. so thats not an issue.

But for flattest trajectory and range, I keep coming back to the .460

I don't like the idea of "having" to use ear protection to prevent going deaf and the .460 is a lot of gun to hold as the .44 feels a bit more molded for my hand.
But a lot of people like their .460's and I like the Hornady ammo for it too.
Here I read that recoil with the 200gr SST bullet is almost non existent.


> Recoil with the 200gr SST is almost non-existent, however the muzzle blast and fireball are impressive with the bullet leaving at 2,200 fps. Double action is a cinch, but I was wearing a short sleeve shirt and it felt like I was getting a sunburn on my forearms. You can definitely feel the heat come back at you in double action. Still have all the arm hairs so it's not that bad.
> 
> Shooting lighter weight (240 - 260 gr) .454 Casull is like shooting .44 specials in a Redhawk .44 mag. A real non-event.
> 
> Now, move up to .460 CorBon 300gr JSP leaving the barrel at 1,750fps and you know you're shooting a serious round. Muzzle blast is noticably less than with the 200 gr, but the recoil is firm. Not painful, but firm. You could probably shoot a box at one sitting, but I might have to take a break after the first 10 and come back to it later.


Watching video's it appears I could probably shoot either one.

Another good post.


> .460 S&W should be able to take a .44 Mag, a .460 is an extended version of the .454 Casull which is already more powerful than the .44 and will shoot farther using full power loads. A .44 is only effective out to 100 yards max if you load hot or maybe 125-150 yards max if you shoot a carbine rifle with some good loads, a .460 can reach to 200 yards out of a revolver.


Some interesting videos I found.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhJz7bejbKQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W7tcAAoSLA&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFZCRs6jdmM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgxcZBCRZTs&feature=youtube_gdata

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzBv...2D51DE4B&index=19&playnext=3&playnext_from=PL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omcOyqqry2A


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## kaichu dento (Mar 26, 2010)

The reason that hurt his hand in the first video is that his elbows are locked and the way he's leaning back and spinning the cylinder really shows his rookiness. The guy in the second video obviously knows how to handle a gun.

Nice way to get firewood!


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## windstrings (Mar 26, 2010)

Your right.. he definitely had his hard locked... not shock absorption.

Notice the third video "added after you looked"... the camera is on the butt almost as much as the gun!

Here the .44mag looks like no big deal....... seems to get the extra distance the .460 may be manageable.


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## kaichu dento (Mar 26, 2010)

Going to look at the others you posted now, but this one is my favorite so far!


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## windstrings (Mar 26, 2010)

That was quite interesting.... especially that the 200gr SST had exceptional penetration "to plank 15 I think".

That test did not monitor trajectory, distance after traveling 150 yards through the air, and speed but it was quite interesting to see how the blunt nose bullets did just as good a penetration as long as the gr was more.

Crap... look at the Flame coming out of this thing!


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## windstrings (Mar 26, 2010)

This girl looks like an excellent shooter too.
I see little recoil and the gun looks really big in her small hands!

An amazing amount of energy....


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## kaichu dento (Mar 26, 2010)

All of the videos were fun to watch, but I especially liked the penetration tests and watching the girl!


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## windstrings (Mar 26, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> All of the videos were fun to watch, but I especially liked the penetration tests and watching the girl!




Yep... I figure if those girls can shoot it, I certainly can.


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## kaichu dento (Mar 26, 2010)

Did you notice too that there was less felt recoil for both of them when shooting one handed? I've never been a great shot, but I shoot better one handed than with two.


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## mon90ey (May 18, 2010)

Once again I must provide a correction to my previous posts, #'s 83 and 84, in which I refer to Mr. Seyfried's modified Ruger Bisley as a "#13 Keith" or a "Keith #13" when in reality the correct name for this handgun is the Seyfried #13. It is chambered in .475 Linebaugh. My apologies to all who may have been misled. For a photo of this beautiful handgun, you can find it in Hamilton Bowen's book "The Custom Revolver".


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## WebWalker (May 30, 2010)

Fun thread to read. Hope it's not too late to contribute.
I agree with Hamilton-Felix - "The shape of that big revolver, grip design, bore height above shooter's hand, and more will make a difference."
_and weight too_
Back in our really active shooting days (80's) my son shot the 44mag (Dan Wesson VH Pistol Pack) and 7mm BR XP100 in IHMSA competitions (International Handgun Metallic Silhoutte Association). That was five targets (steel targets you have to knock down) each at 50, 100, 150 & 200 meters. Run through course twice - 40 targets.
I helped develop the loads and click tables for the various distances. DW was iron sites and XP100 was scoped. 
I'm older now and have started recording my history. I did a chapter on the DW 44mag, my son and recoil. He was 12 when I bought him the Pistol Pack.


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## Kestrel (Oct 13, 2010)

Deer-hunting season 

I just picked up some .45 Colt LeverEvolution ammo for my Ruger .454 revolver - when I'm out hunting this fall, I'll be carrying this as an 'opportunity' deer gun during the day when I won't have my '06 with me. :devil:


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## kaichu dento (Oct 13, 2010)

Kestrel said:


> Deer-hunting season
> 
> I just picked up some .45 Colt LeverEvolution ammo for my Ruger .454 revolver - when I'm out hunting this fall, I'll be carrying this as an 'opportunity' deer gun during the day when I won't have my '06 with me. :devil:


How's the kick on that compare with the Freedom Arms .454? Make sure and get some pics for us too.


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 15, 2010)

Kestrel said:


> Deer-hunting season
> 
> I just picked up some .45 Colt LeverEvolution ammo for my Ruger .454 revolver - when I'm out hunting this fall, I'll be carrying this as an 'opportunity' deer gun during the day when I won't have my '06 with me. :devil:



I didn't know you had a Ruger 454. What will the ballistics OTF (LOL) be with the Lever Evolution ammo? Seriously. I used to chronograph most of my ammo. Never had a handgun larger than 44 Mag (recently stolen).

Bill


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## Kestrel (Oct 15, 2010)

Bullzeyebill said:


> I didn't know you had a Ruger 454. What will the ballistics OTF (LOL) be with the Lever Evolution ammo? Seriously. I used to chronograph most of my ammo. Never had a handgun larger than 44 Mag (recently stolen).


Well, I don't chronograph anything anymore (just not enough time), but I'm content with what Hornady claims for their .45 Colt ammo from a 4.5" barrel, as my Ruger has a 7.5" barrel.

With respect to trajectory, I'm expecting something like:

+1" @ 25 yds
0 @ 50 yds (~400 ft-lbs)
-10.5" @ 100 yds. (~350 ft-lbs)
The Hornady LeverEvolution .45 Colt, another win for the .454 chambering, as I have no wish to whack a deer with my 360-grain CorBons.  

When Ruger came out with this fine chambering, I sold off my S&W .44 Mag.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 15, 2010)

Kestrel said:


> Well, I don't chronograph anything anymore (just not enough time), but I'm content with what Hornady claims for their .45 Colt ammo from a 4.5" barrel, as my Ruger has a 7.5" barrel.
> 
> With respect to trajectory, I'm expecting something like:
> 
> ...


The .454 is a great performer but while I had mine I still wanted to keep the Super Redhawk. If I ever get around to a .460 V though it's possible I'd be sending the .44 down the road too.

While I felt okay with the .44 Mag in black bear country I would feel much better with the extra horsepower of the .460 as we get more and more grizzly's showing up in the area.


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## Patriot (Oct 16, 2010)

My brass from the most recent outing a couple of weeks ago. I fired the following loads....

Loaded 500 and 9mm at the top for size reference.






Magtech 325gr @ 1801fps (30) rounds)
Magtech 400gr @ 1608fps (20 rounds)
Corbon 500gr @ 1500fps (10 rounds)
Handload 440gr HC @ 1692fps (20 rounds)

The 325's are always decent to shoot.
The 400's always feels stout.

I couldn't tell which was worse between my hand loads and the Cor-bon Hunter but I'm leaning toward the Cor-bon. With the handloads and lighter bullets there's more burning powder to work the muzzle brake. To be perfectly honest, these aren't very much fun to shoot. I was actually sore in my forearm the next day. :laughing:

Also, we shot "long range" with the Magtech loads at a 10" steel plate at 200 yards. Off the bench it was surprisingly easy to hit (4 out of 5). Offhand was a real challenge and it was more like 1 hit in 3. Two liter Coke bottles at 100 yards were the most fun and I was hitting those about 50/50 offhand. I've got about 5 hours of video footage to sort through but eventually I'll post some of the 500s&w shooting.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 16, 2010)

Patriot said:


> My brass from the most recent outing a couple of weeks ago. I fired the following loads....
> 
> Loaded 500 and 9mm at the top for size reference.
> 
> ...


Before I even started reading I looked at the bag of empty shells and thought "That damn Patriot's pretty good to shoot that many rounds of .500 at one outing!" Just remembering the .454 it made my hand hurt seeing that bag of empty's!


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## Patriot (Oct 16, 2010)

Ha! Not so sure about "good" but perhaps not thinking about how it would feel the next day. :duh2:

This video series of 600 yard rifle shooting is a bit off topic but this was the same shooting trip that the 500s&w footage is on. I've got a lot of editing work to do before it's ready though and several other projects in front of it. In any case, just thought I'd post these links for the shooters here... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDm8jXYPkv8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dli5tErzr90&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwGBDPF46NQ&feature=related


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## windstrings (Oct 31, 2010)

Well I think I've finally overcome my concerns.
I went to a meet with some friends and found shooting the 45 and 44 magnum single handed no bug deal and a lot of fun.... I was actually pretty accurate.

My plan is to pick the .460 from Cabelas since I have about a thousand dollars to spend in points. I will get a nice variable power scope for it later.
I don't shoot much once I get s gun dialed in so I'm not worried about wrist fatigue anyway.

I will use it for deer and hog hunting ad a rifle replacement and set it for 150 yard's. Most Lilly...since 250 yards is a very long shot ....I figure I'm good for 200 yard's. 

Of course ill have to have a little fun with it at the pistol competitions!


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## Kestrel (Nov 1, 2010)

windstrings said:


> I will use it for deer and hog hunting ad a rifle replacement and set it for 150 yard's. Most Lilly...since 250 yards is a very long shot ....I figure I'm good for 200 yard's.


Um, you really want to determine the highest point-of-impact above point-of aim (with shorter distances) with a 150-yd zero...

IMO that configuration may shoot too high at reasonably-close distances with a zero that far away.


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## windstrings (Nov 1, 2010)

Yep... Hornady already did the work for me!



> With a stated muzzle velocity of 2,200 feet per second, the bullet sighted 1.9 inches high at 50 yards would be 2.4 inches high at 100 yards, dead point of aim at 150 yards and 6.3 inches low at 200 yards.


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## windstrings (Nov 1, 2010)

Well I thought you guys would be interested in knowing that in order for me to get this gun my wife just got a new pistol!.... LOL!


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## Patriot (Nov 2, 2010)

Sweet Windy! You're going to love shooting it! 

Oops, I mean...your wife is really going to enjoy her new gun.


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## ironhorse (Feb 22, 2018)

This thread has been dormant for far too long. I have been kicking around on what is next on my wish list. I think I am going to save up for the .460 in Thompson Center Encore, but haven't made up my mind on barrel length as of yet.


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## kaichu dento (Feb 23, 2018)

windstrings said:


> Well I thought you guys would be interested in knowing that in order for me to get this gun my wife just got a new pistol!.... LOL!


Since someone started the thread back up again, anything to share now that you've had the .460 for a few years now?


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