# Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.



## N8N (Aug 30, 2013)

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/rechargeable-batteries/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price for a 2-pack of fake *** D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

But wait, there's more

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/rechargeable-batteries/Pages/c.aspx

they come in C cell size too! Oh joy!

I mean, really. It's not that they managed to put out a *bad* cell, to make one this pathetic takes real effort. It's like they're just saying expletive you, consumers, we want to sell you our (admittedly excellent) lithium primaries, so we're going to make our rechargeables suck so much dong that if you're dumb enough to actually buy them the taste in your mouth will be literally like kissing your crazy bipolar ex-girlfriend, but without any of the good parts."

And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception: I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on the shelf at Micro Center.)

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

Please moderate your language - Norm


----------



## jtr1962 (Aug 30, 2013)

N8N said:


> Am I alone in being insulted by this?


No, I'm disgusted that with _decent_ LSD NiMH pretty much being a defacto replacement for alkaline cells we still even see alkalines on the store shelves. It's no surprise both Duracell and Energizer have made little effort to educate the average consumer on LSD cells when their primary business is alkalines. The retail stores can't be blamed much either when they make way more money off alkalines than from rechargeables. At best, they'll have a few packs of rechargeables sitting behind a display full of alkalines. IMO we should do one of two things-either require putting information on LSD cells on packages of alkalines and next to store battery displays OR levy a $1 per cell tax on alkaline batteries. Most people would adopt LSD cells in a heartbeat if they were properly informed. By the same token, selling standard high-discharge NiMH and C/D cells with crappy capacities will do nothing but turn people off to the idea of rechargeables. Then again, that's probably the point here. It's a pity because we have a great product which should have garnered near 100% market share by now, and yet too many people still reach for the alkalines, even for high-drain devices where the economics are horrible.

Really, this is a case of Energizer treating customers like morons and also blatantly trying to extend the shelf life of a product which was functionally obsolete about three years ago.


----------



## N8N (Aug 30, 2013)

I would say that your average Target has maybe 1/5 to 1/4 of their battery shelf space devoted to rechargeables... but most of them are Energizer, with the remainder Duracell. Nothing decent in the lot, unless the latest batch of Duracells turns out to be good. Since they're so new though, I'm going to stick with what I know works.

If I'm still pissed tomorrow I might write a letter to Target corporate suggesting they start carrying Eneloop and Centura instead of Energizer, and maybe offer a decent charger as well. They already sell Eneloops on their web site, just not in stores. And post it here so you all can cut 'n' paste into your own correspondence, and maybe also edit appropriately and send to the store of your choice.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Aug 31, 2013)

Most people don't have fancy charger`s that can handle 10.000mah+ capacity's though most can handle 2500mah fine with their low charge rates, that is why the D cells have such a low capacity so they can get a reliable charge termination with capacity's any higher than 2500mah the charger might miss termination, it`s not a rip off unless they are extortionately priced.

John.


----------



## N8N (Aug 31, 2013)

It'd be way more honest to just sell AA to D adapter sleeves like eneloop does, and more practical too as many chargers will take AAs but not Cs or Ds, and then you're not using "special" cells in your D cell using devices. Although I wish that the 3xAA to D adapters were more readily available, those get you to at least the same order of magnitude of capacity as a real D cell. I saw in another thread that there's a Chinese eBay seller selling them (and the 4xAAA to C) for a reasonable price, just waiting on a quality report before ordering. And yeah, the price is kind of high, it's about the same for 2xD as the regular price for 4xAA Duraloops. Or only slightly less than Tenergy Centura Ds. The Centura Cs are actually less than the 2500 mAh Energizer Cs on Amazon!

Or to look at it another way, the cheap "CTA" cells that DX sells are likely better than these!


----------



## torukmakto4 (Aug 31, 2013)

Well, other than people like us (who know why, where and how to seek out and purchase a real nickel D-cell and can make use of the capacity) who would EVER need a NiMH D cell with 10 AMP-hours?

Most devices that the mere mortal consumer type of market use are intended to run on alkalines, and while an alkie D may be a lot of capacity in rating terms and able to supply a lot of amps compared to other alkalines, it really doesn't hold up under load, as is expected from this crappy obsolete chemistry. Increasing the discharge current rapidly torpedoes the voltage and delivered capacity. So, if you have a device that expects D alkaleaks, you would probably be just as happy with AA NiMH cells, which have less internal resistance than the fresh D did and give up their full capacity at rated voltage under multi-amp loads.

I would expect it to be a minority of devices that use D cells because of capacity, and not because of the currents involved. As an example, one of my other hobbies is hacking nerf guns. "Mods" usually have lipos and NiMH packs and the like and are electrically similar to an airsoft gun after they have been fixed and upgraded, but off the shelf they are all set up to use these ridiculous alkaline batteries. One such application is 6 D cells on a 360 size electric motor. There is no way those would give up rated capacity - they are D cells purely so the motor will have enough current available to turn over the gearbox. If you just wanted to make that thing lighter you could put a six-pack of eneloops in there and it would run for ages at about one shot fired per mAh.

Not that I think the Energizer marketing is not a scam...

It is.


----------



## N8N (Aug 31, 2013)

Judging by the Amazon reviews, people with kids are using D cell powered baby swings (makes sense as babies can't be trusted not to eat AC cords) and they're pretty disappointed in the Energizer cells.... so there's an app where a D is used for both current and capacity.

Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk 4


----------



## idleprocess (Aug 31, 2013)

The AA is the most commonly-used cell in the world. As such, it receives the lion's share of development and production resources from major NiMH producers, with AAA a distant second and all other sizes seeing residuals.

If you've ever handled an Energizer, Duracell, or Ray-O-Vac D cell, you'll immediately notice how light they are. Combining that with their low capacity that happens to line up with AA cells, and you'll probably assume that inside they're really a AA cell permanently mated to a D adapter - I certainly do. It would be nice if some manufacturer of LSD cells would realize that there is demand for C and D cells with high capacity, but so far they remain niche items and we're kind of lucky that a few companies make "vanilla" NiMH cells in 5000 - 10,000 mAH capacities.

I wish I could find some quality 3x AA : D parallel adapters for some mod projects I've got in mind since one might die of old age waiting for the manufacturers to meet our admittedly niche demand.


----------



## bmel17 (Aug 31, 2013)

idleprocess said:


> I wish I could find some quality 3x AA : D parallel adapters for some mod projects I've got in mind since one might die of old age waiting for the manufacturers to meet our admittedly niche demand.



I just ordered 2 adapters in the hopes they will fit my needs. Now to wait the 2 week to get them. sigh


----------



## snakebite (Aug 31, 2013)

rechargeables are not duracell,energizer,rayovac,ect bread and butter.throwaways are.
really good rechageables threaten that.the big mfrs probably hate me as i go about "poisoning the well" so to speak.everyone i know is using the blue panasonic d nimh i got in a huge qty years back.
none buy alkaleaks now!
they are for disposeable things like crap plastic lights used for work so nobody will steal them ,ect.
i consider anything known to have problems with rechargeables to be junk not worth buying.


----------



## idleprocess (Aug 31, 2013)

jtr1962 said:


> IMO we should do one of two things-either require putting information on LSD cells on packages of alkalines and next to store battery displays OR levy a $1 per cell tax on alkaline batteries. Most people would adopt LSD cells in a heartbeat if they were properly informed. By the same token, selling standard high-discharge NiMH and C/D cells with crappy capacities will do nothing but turn people off to the idea of rechargeables. Then again, that's probably the point here. It's a pity because we have a great product which should have garnered near 100% market share by now, and yet too many people still reach for the alkalines, even for high-drain devices where the economics are horrible.


You would be amazed how many people are aware of NiMH and even _LSD_-NiMH that still buy alkalines. Unless it's a device they use near-daily, they just can't be bothered with the higher per-cell cost, additional expense of a charger, and the "hassle" of recharging.


----------



## jtr1962 (Aug 31, 2013)

idleprocess said:


> You would be amazed how many people are aware of NiMH and even _LSD_-NiMH that still buy alkalines. Unless it's a device they use near-daily, they just can't be bothered with the higher per-cell cost, additional expense of a charger, and the "hassle" of recharging.


I'm still surprised here because for me the one thing which got me to retire alkalines permanently is their propensity to leak. Prior to LSD cells I agree it was a hassle keeping NiMH charged in lightly used devices but nowadays that's a complete non-issue. All it takes is one ruined device to make the cost of some rechargeables and a charger worthwhile.


----------



## jtr1962 (Aug 31, 2013)

N8N said:


> It'd be way more honest to just sell AA to D adapter sleeves like eneloop does, and more practical too as many chargers will take AAs but not Cs or Ds, and then you're not using "special" cells in your D cell using devices. Although I wish that the 3xAA to D adapters were more readily available, those get you to at least the same order of magnitude of capacity as a real D cell. I saw in another thread that there's a Chinese eBay seller selling them (and the 4xAAA to C) for a reasonable price, just waiting on a quality report before ordering.


Yes, I actually agree that given the fairly low volumes of C/D cells sold compared to AA/AAA, it would just make more sense for the battery companies to sell adapters. The best LSD AAs are 2500 mAh, so a 3xAA to D adapter offers a capacity of 7500 mAh. This good enough compared to a _real_ LSD D-cell (the best capacity I've heard is 9500 mAh for Imedion D-cells). And 4xAAA to C gets you 3200 mAh with most typical LSD AAA cells. Again, not quite the 5000 mAh capacity of the best LSD C-cells, but much better than "fake" Cs.


----------



## ampdude (Aug 31, 2013)

Energizer (and other makers) have been doing that for a long, long time. Most people don't know any better so they sell just like the AA's.

It's nothing new! Smart chargers will terminate properly regardless of capacity, I only ever own smart chargers.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Aug 31, 2013)

I thought you had to charge at least 0.3C to be sure that the battery full voltage drop is detected to terminate the charge, so if you are charging an 5000mah D cell you need to charge at rate of 1500ma and this is beyond most normal store consumer chargers, and the safety timer would have to terminate the charge.

John.



ampdude said:


> Energizer (and other makers) have been doing that for a long, long time. Most people don't know any better so they sell just like the AA's.
> 
> It's nothing new! Smart chargers will terminate properly regardless of capacity, I only ever own smart chargers.


----------



## StorminMatt (Aug 31, 2013)

jtr1962 said:


> I'm still surprised here because for me the one thing which got me to retire alkalines permanently is their propensity to leak. Prior to LSD cells I agree it was a hassle keeping NiMH charged in lightly used devices but nowadays that's a complete non-issue. All it takes is one ruined device to make the cost of some rechargeables and a charger worthwhile.




Very true about ruined devices from leakage. But besides that, I find there are other advantages to rechargeables. One is better performance. Quite simply, a light such as my Dereelight Javelin with a Solarforce XM-L2 drop-in would be completely useless with alkaline batteries at maximum brightness. But even with 2000mAH AA batteries, I get a solid 1:20 of bright light from it at maximum brightness. Dimmer lights may work OKAY on alkalines. But I like a light that doesn't dim as you use it. That's always been a pet peeve I've had with alkaline batteries. Quite simply, the constant voltage output of NiMH is something I've always liked.


But another thing I really like about rechargeables is the way that they inspire what we might call a 'culture of abundance' rather than a 'culture of scarcity'. Alkaline batteries cost you money every time you use them. They can't be recharged. You have to throw them away and get new ones every time they are used up. Because they cost you, there is a desire to conserve them. Don't use that light (or other device) unless you REALLY have to because this is costing money. Put up with poor performance as the light dims because they're still working. You don't want to throw your money in the garbage too soon! Even if you're getting 30 of them for a few bucks at Costco, it's still costing money. And when they run out, you will be without batteries until you go out and get more. Rechargeables, on the other hand, cost a negligible amount of electricity to recharge. And you don't have to go anywhere to buy them when they are drained or wait to have new ones shipped. So you use them as much as you want. And if you're doing something with friends, you lend them out because they cost you nothing. No more conserving batteries just because you don't want to waste money.




ampdude said:


> Energizer (and other makers) have been doing that for a long, long time. Most people don't know any better so they sell just like the AA's.
> 
> 
> It's nothing new!




Exactly! Even back before you could get NiMH batteries, this was common practice with Nicads. Some places (like Radio Shack, I think) even sold both cheaper, low capacity C and D batteries (which were basically AA batteries) in addition to more expensive, full C and D batteries.


----------



## N8N (Aug 31, 2013)

bmel17 said:


> I just ordered 2 adapters in the hopes they will fit my needs. Now to wait the 2 week to get them. sigh



Yeah, I was in your other thread too, that was the first I've seen those, definitely intrigued as I have extra AAs but no Ds, and the only means I have to charge Ds is my C9000 with adapters.


----------



## N8N (Aug 31, 2013)

jtr1962 said:


> I'm still surprised here because for me the one thing which got me to retire alkalines permanently is their propensity to leak. Prior to LSD cells I agree it was a hassle keeping NiMH charged in lightly used devices but nowadays that's a complete non-issue. All it takes is one ruined device to make the cost of some rechargeables and a charger worthwhile.



YES! I had some alkalines leak in a laser distance finder earlier this year and had I had to replace it it would have cost more than the charger and all the Eneloops that I promptly ordered had I not been able to resuscitate it. I'm done with alkalines, 80% of my stuff is Eneloop powered now and I'm picking away at the rest.


----------



## BillSWPA (Aug 31, 2013)

My previous experience with rechargeable batteries was many years ago, and quite poor. After reading about batteries on this forum, and also losing some devices to leaking alkaline batteries, I am thinking more and more about moving back towards rechargeables. My biggest concern with switching to rechargeables is making sure that I don't ruin the devices by using higher voltage and/or current rechargeables in a device that was designed around the performance characteristics of alkalines. I would be looking at AA, AAA, and D sizes primarily.


----------



## Mr Happy (Aug 31, 2013)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> I thought you had to charge at least 0.3C to be sure that the battery full voltage drop is detected to terminate the charge, so if you are charging an 5000mah D cell you need to charge at rate of 1500ma and this is beyond most normal store consumer chargers, and the safety timer would have to terminate the charge.



The 0.3C rule of thumb is only really true of AA cells. If you try charging a 10 Ah D cell at 0.5 C you will risk damaging it. The typical maximum charge rate for most cells is not more than about 2 A. (The main reason being that C and D cells have a much smaller surface area to volume ratio, so they can't let the heat out so fast. Larger cells have to be charged at lower rates to keep the internal temperature within bounds.)


----------



## Mr Happy (Aug 31, 2013)

N8N said:


> If I'm still pissed tomorrow I might write a letter to Target corporate suggesting they start carrying Eneloop and Centura instead of Energizer, and maybe offer a decent charger as well.



Target has previously carried better quality chargers, but in common with other retail stores in the USA they have most likely found such items sit on the rack gathering dust. Consumers are only interested in the lowest price and expensive items don't sell. If you look in retail stores today you will find most chargers are of the inexpensive, slow, overnight variety. This is the only merchandise that moves.


----------



## idleprocess (Aug 31, 2013)

Mr Happy said:


> Target has previously carried better quality chargers, but in common with other retail stores in the USA they have most likely found such items sit on the rack gathering dust. Consumers are only interested in the lowest price and expensive items don't sell. If you look in retail stores today you will find most chargers are of the inexpensive, slow, overnight variety. This is the only merchandise that moves.



Specialty retailers are where an exception to this rule is to be found. I've found that larger electronics stores as a general rule carry a far wider variety of merchandise simply because they have so much more space to fill and this is best done with variety of quality in addition to variety of brands. While one most likely won't find this year's über hobbyist charger at, say, Fry's, one stands an excellent chance of sourcing something far superior to a 2-channel series-parallel timed charger that will likely melt itself and/or the cells down after a few dozen cycles.


----------



## StorminMatt (Aug 31, 2013)

Speaking of Fry's, I NEVER understood their battery aisle. They have TONS of Tenergy products. LOTS AND LOTS of alkaline batteries. And quite a bit of weird, oddball stuff by Tenergy. I'm talking AA Nicads, some low current 14500 LiFePO4 solar batteries, miscellaneous 18650 and 26650 Li-Ion batteries with and without tabs, and a set with two RCR123 batteries with a charger. In other words, stuff people are not likely to buy. But when it comes to NiMH batteries, FORGET IT! For all the Tenergy stuff you see, you won't find a single Premium or Centura battery. They are excused with AA and AAA batteries, since they already have Duraloops. But do you think they would stock, say C or D Centuras? NOOOOO! Instead, they have a bunch of AA Nicads and 14500 LiFePO4 batteries that few people will EVER think of buying.


----------



## idleprocess (Sep 1, 2013)

StorminMatt said:


> Speaking of Fry's, I NEVER understood their battery aisle. They have TONS of Tenergy products. LOTS AND LOTS of alkaline batteries. And quite a bit of weird, oddball stuff by Tenergy. I'm talking AA Nicads, some low current 14500 LiFePO4 solar batteries, miscellaneous 18650 and 26650 Li-Ion batteries with and without tabs, and a set with two RCR123 batteries with a charger. In other words, stuff people are not likely to buy. But when it comes to NiMH batteries, FORGET IT! For all the Tenergy stuff you see, you won't find a single Premium or Centura battery. They are excused with AA and AAA batteries, since they already have Duraloops. But do you think they would stock, say C or D Centuras? NOOOOO! Instead, they have a bunch of AA Nicads and 14500 LiFePO4 batteries that few people will EVER think of buying.



Yeah, their selection is certainly an exercise in _stir-fried random_, but the lack of high-cap C/D cells is somewhat understandable since the general public is unwilling to pay the price premium they require. Also, with all things lithium being the sekzi thing in batteries right now, it's no surprise that's where a lot of the variety is with 18650's, R123A, even LiFePO4 in 12v SLA form-factors.


----------



## mccririck (Sep 1, 2013)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Most people don't have fancy charger`s that can handle 10.000mah+ capacity's though most can handle 2500mah fine with their low charge rates, that is why the D cells have such a low capacity so they can get a reliable charge termination with capacity's any higher than 2500mah the charger might miss termination, it`s not a rip off unless they are extortionately priced.
> 
> John.



I dont agree. For one thing they are expensive, and secondly you could just use adaptors if you're happy with that capacity. And if people want rechargeable D cells they'll either have a suitable charger or will need to buy one.

In the UK Lidl sell NiMH D cells 4500mAh - £2.99 for two. Duracell and Energizer are being pathetic.


----------



## mccririck (Sep 1, 2013)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Dt7coMExL.jpg


*Image tags removed see Rule #3 Do not Hot Link images. Please host on an image site, Imageshack or similar and repost – Thanks Norm*


:shakehead


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Sep 1, 2013)

Yeah, i live next to a Lidl store, i use to buy their low-discharge AA, red Tronic brand, but for some reason they stopped selling pre-charged battery`s i dont know why, all they sell now is Tronic standard nimh battery`s

John.



mccririck said:


> I dont agree. For one thing they are expensive, and secondly you could just use adaptors if you're happy with that capacity. And if people want rechargeable D cells they'll either have a suitable charger or will need to buy one.
> 
> In the UK Lidl sell NiMH D cells 4500mAh - £2.99 for two. Duracell and Energizer are being pathetic.


----------



## mccririck (Sep 1, 2013)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Yeah, i live next to a Lidl store, i use to buy their low-discharge AA, red Tronic brand, but for some reason they stopped selling pre-charged battery`s i dont know why, all they sell now is Tronic standard nimh battery`s
> 
> John.



The last time they had the green LSD was last year about Christmas time. I'm hoping they get them back in soon. I'll be buying up their C and D cells.


----------



## N8N (Sep 1, 2013)

BillSWPA said:


> My previous experience with rechargeable batteries was many years ago, and quite poor. After reading about batteries on this forum, and also losing some devices to leaking alkaline batteries, I am thinking more and more about moving back towards rechargeables. My biggest concern with switching to rechargeables is making sure that I don't ruin the devices by using higher voltage and/or current rechargeables in a device that was designed around the performance characteristics of alkalines. I would be looking at AA, AAA, and D sizes primarily.



I don't see that as being a concern when talking about replacing alkalines with NiMH. Alkaline is nominal 1.5V and NiMH is nominal 1.2V so the NiMH actually runs at a lower voltage. Yes, NiMH has lower internal resistance theoretically for higher max current capacity, but a device will only draw what it draws, current in use is based on the device, not the battery. The only time the internal resistance of the battery becomes relevant is when we're talking about super high powered flashlights or other ultra high current draw devices, but again, low internal battery resistance shouldn't have any ill effects on a device designed for alkalines.

What *is* a possiblity, and one that I've seen, is in a device with a low battery warning, e.g. a digital camera, the lower voltage of a NiMH may cause the device to report low battery and/or shut down when there is still plenty of charge left in the cells. So, there is a possibility that the NiMH may just not work well... but they still won't damage your device. That's the only time I've had an issue with NiMH and that particular camera was supposed to be able to use NiMH OK, I really think that the camera was defective but Nikon didn't want to deal with it (was a cheap point and shoot) another possibility was at the time I was using a cheap Energizer brand charger that I bought in a store somewhere, it might not have been charging up my cells properly, who knows.


----------



## HKJ (Sep 1, 2013)

N8N said:


> Alkaline is nominal 1.5V and NiMH is nominal 1.2V so the NiMH actually runs at a lower voltage.



With flashlight NiMH will usual run at a higher voltage most of the time (Check my AA battery comparison), but it is very seldom it will give any problems with a flashlight.


----------



## mccririck (Sep 1, 2013)

Yeah I've never had any problems with NiMH in a flashlight. They tend to not be so bright as alkaline to start off with but the alkaline voltage sags very quickly in a flashlight whereas the NiMH can keep supplying decent output for much longer.


----------



## SilverFox (Sep 1, 2013)

Hello N8N,

Keep in mind that the voltage rating for Alkaline and NiMh cells are under different conditions.

Alkaline cells are rated 1.5 volts for a new cell and under open circuit conditions.

NiMh cells are rated 1.2 volts under load.

In actual use a cell is under load so to get a comparison you need to review a test graph that shows the Alkaline cell under load to see if its voltage exceeds the NiMh cell.

Tom


----------



## Wrend (Sep 1, 2013)

N8N said:


> ...but a device will only draw what it draws, current in use is based on the device, not the battery. The only time the internal resistance of the battery becomes relevant is when we're talking about super high powered flashlights or other ultra high current draw devices, but again, low internal battery resistance shouldn't have any ill effects on a device designed for alkalines.
> 
> ...



I agree that NiMH cells should be more than fine in general as a replacement for alkaline cells, but I just wanted to point out that the performance and electrochemical characteristics of a battery can very much effect the current that it is pushing through a circuit. Current (in a basic circuit) is proportional to the resistance of the circuit (which includes the internal resistance of a battery) and the voltage of the cell(s).

It is very much incorrect and potentially dangerous to say and think that a device will only "draw" what it "draws" as this is pretty much actually completely backwards from how electricity works.

For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law

...

Anyway, yes. I've pretty much replaced all my alkaline cells with Eneloops. The only alkaline cells I've bought in the last several years have been ones that unfortunately came with different electronic devices, or for others that aren't interested in using anything else. My wife did mistakenly pick up a pack of alkaline AAs a few months ago though... Yeah, she should know better (since we have extra unused alkaline cells anyway), but what'll you do?:shrug:


----------



## hopkins (Sep 1, 2013)

The D-cell sleeve conversion for Ni-mH AA cells is simple and works. I use them in a big mag-lite.

The D-cell type is curious. Probably just some marketing people trying for change and generate new sales.

decades ago I bought 2 rechargeable D-cells which died. cut one open and it had a tiny sub-aaa
cell soldered in the mostly empty volume of the D-cell. think they were from Radio Shack >circa 1980?


----------



## mccririck (Sep 2, 2013)

hopkins said:


> The D-cell sleeve conversion for Ni-mH AA cells is simple and works. I use them in a big mag-lite.
> 
> The D-cell type is curious. Probably just some marketing people trying for change and generate new sales.
> 
> ...



lol

What do you mean by D-cell sleeve conversion?


----------



## Mr Floppy (Sep 2, 2013)

hopkins said:


> decades ago I bought 2 rechargeable D-cells which died. cut one open and it had a tiny sub-aaa
> cell soldered in the mostly empty volume of the D-cell. think they were from Radio Shack >circa 1980?



I thought this was old news? 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?240426-Energizer-quot-D-quot-Battery-Exposed


----------



## N8N (Sep 2, 2013)

mccririck said:


> lol
> 
> What do you mean by D-cell sleeve conversion?



I'm assuming he means the single cell adapters like Sanyo sells for Eneloops, same concept as the parallel adapters we were discussing earlier except only one AA or AAA cell is used to replace each larger cell. Very much like the energizer D cell that prompted this thread but it's clear what you're doing so there's no surprise from the reduced capacity.


----------



## N8N (Sep 2, 2013)

hopkins said:


> The D-cell sleeve conversion for Ni-mH AA cells is simple and works. I use them in a big mag-lite.
> 
> Reply With Quote
> 
> ...



Historically, the D cell is on of the oldest still in wide use today. The smaller cells weren't much use until later, although wikipedia says 1909 for AAs and 1911 for AAAs which is earlier than I would have expected. I wonder what they were used for back then?


----------



## N8N (Sep 2, 2013)

Wrend said:


> I agree that NiMH cells should be more than fine in general as a replacement for alkaline cells, but I just wanted to point out that the performance and electrochemical characteristics of a battery can very much effect the current that it is pushing through a circuit. Current (in a basic circuit) is proportional to the resistance of the circuit (which includes the internal resistance of a battery) and the voltage of the cell(s).
> 
> It is very much incorrect and potentially dangerous to say and think that a device will only "draw" what it "draws" as this is pretty much actually completely backwards from how electricity works.



How so? if a device is designed to work on one voltage, and a lower voltage is applied to it, then if it is a purely resistive load, it will follow Ohm's law and actually draw *less* current. In the instance of e.g. a regulated LED driver module, it will draw more current, but only what is needed to provide the desired current through the LED. Let's say you have an old 2-cell incan flashlight with a 3W bulb in it, so that's a current of 1A @ 3V or an effective resistance of 3 ohms. The internal resistance of the two cells makes a negligible contribution to the resistance of the circuit as a whole... production variations in bulb filaments probably have more to do with the life of the bulb than does internal resistance of the cells. (I picked that example because a flashlight with more cells would operate at a higher voltage and therefore have a proportionally higher resistance bulb filament for the same light output)

Additionally, any device that is able to be powered by a wall wart should be able to accept straight DC voltage of its nominal rating with no effective external resistance without issue.

I'm trying, but I can't think of a common example where the internal resistance of the cells would be in any way relevant.



> Anyway, yes. I've pretty much replaced all my alkaline cells with Eneloops. The only alkaline cells I've bought in the last several years have been ones that unfortunately came with different electronic devices, or for others that aren't interested in using anything else. My wife did mistakenly pick up a pack of alkaline AAs a few months ago though... Yeah, she should know better (since we have extra unused alkaline cells anyway), but what'll you do?:shrug:



and that was my point, they are pretty much a drop in replacement for AA or AAA cells 90+ percent of the time.


----------



## N8N (Sep 2, 2013)

Mr Floppy said:


> I thought this was old news?
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?240426-Energizer-quot-D-quot-Battery-Exposed



Maybe it is, I wasn't even aware that energizer made rechargeable Cs and Ds until I saw them in that one Target.

For the "#1 selling rechargeable brand in the world" the sure aren't trying to get their whole product line out there.

But as badly as they suck, perhaps it's no surprise they're not selling.


----------



## idleprocess (Sep 2, 2013)

Alkaline cells only deliver 1.5V at the very beginning of their operating lives. Under significant load, their voltage sags well below 1.5V due to internal resistance and other factors limiting their ability to deliver current.

Energizer Performance Data: "C" (E93) / "D" (E95). Unfortunately, Energizer does not show voltage-vs-discharge rate curves for their alkaline cells. The "D" NiMH datasheet does show the curve - note the far lower voltage as the discharge current progressively increases. This phenomenon will be replicated on their alkaline cells, likely with a curve similar to the other time graphs.


----------



## Wrend (Sep 2, 2013)

N8N said:


> How so? if a device is designed to work on one voltage, and a lower voltage is applied to it, then if it is a purely resistive load, it will follow Ohm's law and actually draw *less* current. In the instance of e.g. a regulated LED driver module, it will draw more current, but only what is needed to provide the desired current through the LED. Let's say you have an old 2-cell incan flashlight with a 3W bulb in it, so that's a current of 1A @ 3V or an effective resistance of 3 ohms. The internal resistance of the two cells makes a negligible contribution to the resistance of the circuit as a whole... production variations in bulb filaments probably have more to do with the life of the bulb than does internal resistance of the cells. (I picked that example because a flashlight with more cells would operate at a higher voltage and therefore have a proportionally higher resistance bulb filament for the same light output)
> 
> Additionally, any device that is able to be powered by a wall wart should be able to accept straight DC voltage of its nominal rating with no effective external resistance without issue.
> 
> ...



OK, I misunderstood what you meant, then. Yes, at a constant voltage and a constant resistance you should have a constant current. I was just pointing out that both the voltage source and the resistance of the circuit determine how much current the given voltage can push through. And of course, just because a battery is capable of supplying more current doesn't mean that it will at a given specific voltage. However, if the voltage would have normally dropped lower with a "weaker" battery, then of course you could have the "stronger" battery with its ability to maintain a higher voltage, push more current through the circuit than the "weaker" battery would have been able to. Still, this isn't likely to be an issue with devices that are designed to work at these voltage levels, and I wasn't trying to imply that it necessarily would be. Someone may just be able to get better "performance" (such as maintaining a brighter light for longer, torque and/or RPMs on a motor, and so on) using a "stronger" battery.

Also, keep in mind that batteries aren't constant voltage sources and that their voltages will lower as their capacities are discharged. At a constant given discharge/drain rate the voltage and type of voltage curve the batteries have as they discharge is in part determined by their chemistry type.

The reason I brought this up is because at first it seemed that you didn't have an understanding of Ohm's law, and thought that the current was always regulated to a specific level by the device, regardless of voltage. Believe it or not, I have actually come across this kind of thinking rather frequently with others on-line. I think it could be a misunderstanding of the concepts of "load" and "draw" that is throwing them off.

Specifically, this is what got my attention: "...but a device will only draw what it draws, current in use is based on the device, not the battery." Of course, however, the battery's voltage can in part "determine" how much current it is able to "push" through a circuit's given resistance (which also includes the battery's internal resistance).

Thanks for clarifying what you meant.


----------



## N8N (Sep 2, 2013)

well, after we both posted I actually thought of a situation where internal resistance might cause an undesirably higher current to be drawn with a lower voltage but lower internal resistance source... a LED run at direct drive close to its limits.

I haven't run the numbers to see if it would actually work out that way, but it seems plausible. Wasn't ever a concern to me because I don't think I have any direct drive lights save for maybe the inexpensive Task Force 3W ones (not sure if those are direct drive or not, but they're not as amazing today as they were a couple years ago.)


----------



## StorminMatt (Sep 2, 2013)

N8N said:


> well, after we both posted I actually thought of a situation where internal resistance might cause an undesirably higher current to be drawn with a lower voltage but lower internal resistance source... a LED run at direct drive close to its limits.
> 
> I haven't run the numbers to see if it would actually work out that way, but it seems plausible. Wasn't ever a concern to me because I don't think I have any direct drive lights save for maybe the inexpensive Task Force 3W ones (not sure if those are direct drive or not, but they're not as amazing today as they were a couple years ago.)



From what I've heard, some of the older LED Lenser lights had this problem. They would use the high internal resistance of alkaline batteries to limit current. And if you tried running them on NiMH, you would blow the emitter(s).


----------



## idleprocess (Sep 2, 2013)

StorminMatt said:


> From what I've heard, some of the older LED Lenser lights had this problem. They would use the high internal resistance of alkaline batteries to limit current. And if you tried running them on NiMH, you would blow the emitter(s).


Was commonplace early on in a number of 2-cell lights when "power" LED Vf for max current was generally around 3.6V and likely voltage ranges for a pair of alkaline/NiMH cells were well within the range where the system could conceivably self-regulate. These were not particularly _bright_ lights, but the runtime was excellent and they generally did at least we well on brightness as AA incans.

Direct-drive on 3+ cells was always iffy and released many a puff of magic smoke.


----------



## snakebite (Sep 2, 2013)

the sub c or aa in the c or d sleeve has been the norm since the first ge rechargeables in the 60's
modern ones are not significantly different either! at least they are now 3000mah


----------



## idleprocess (Sep 2, 2013)

snakebite said:


> the sub c or aa in the c or d sleeve has been the norm since the first ge rechargeables in the 60's
> modern ones are not significantly different either! at least they are now 3000mah


SubC would arguably be a step up from the AA / AAA cells being sleeved into today's C/D cells.


----------



## snakebite (Sep 2, 2013)

the one i remember were a saft "again and again" c cell with a aa nicad inside.
i find the current 3000mah sub c c and d units a steal when they gather dust and go on clearance for 39cents a 2 pack.
i bought about 200 packages last year that way.
friends at the shop thought i was crazy to be tearing apart brand new batteries and filling a trashcan with scraps.till they saw the box of sub c cells and finally figured out that thats what the tool packs use!


----------



## SaraAB87 (Sep 4, 2013)

The problem here is that the General public has been burned on Rechargables in the past and probably doesn't want to try again. So they just buy alkalines by the pack for their battery draining toys, I find I don't have issues with extreme battery drain in anything since I have good Rechargables even devices that other people say need their batteries changed every couple days will last me at least 2-3 weeks with Rechargables. With reports from friends and family that Rechargables bought in a store last 6-10 charges before they either stop holding a charge or go dead before they get to use them its no wonder no one wants to try them again even though today's battery tech is significantly different than that of 6-10 years ago,

Another problem is the chargers, which is where most of the " I have been burned" comes from. No retail store sells a quality charger that I can find around here, most of the time it's not even the battery that is the problem it is the charger and how it's being used. I find it incredibly easy to use a Lacrosse BC700 even easier than a dummy charger as it tells you exactly when the battery is full with the word full on the display I think even a dummy could operate this charger it's literately that easy.

Battery sales are also sagging because a lot of manufactures are just using lithium ion batteries now which means you don't have to buy alkaline cells.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Sep 4, 2013)

It was around 2005 when I first decided to purchase NiMH batteries. (Right about then, there was a big "hoopla" in Japan about rechargables, probably initiated by the introduction of Eneloops.)

So, I certainly noticed the Eneloops, but (too my great regret, and not knowing any better) I ended up purchasing Panasonic Evolta rechargeables. But, I have never looked back, and have never purchased another Alkaline battery since. (I tend to accumulate cheap Alkalines, because in Japan, most products come with "batteries included." I almost never use those batteries, so I end up with a constant supply on hand. Mostly, I give them away to people who ask me if I have any spare batteries handy.)

Having recently understood the benefits of LSD technology, I have started transitioning to Eneloops. And, I also invested in a MAHA MH-C9000 to test/analyze all my old Evolta batteries.

While I live in Japan, I sometimes visit the USA for extended periods, and one such time, I said "what the heck" and purchased a 4 pack of rechargables packaged with a cheap charger (Rayovac?)... the price seemed right. But, they turned out to be absolute and utter "junk." I was amazed at how quickly they failed (killed by the cheap charger no doubt). So, I tend to agree with this thread... it almost seems as if the USA Alkaline battery manufacturers would prefer that people have a bad experience with rechargeables.

By contrast, my first Japanese Panasonic batteries came packaged with a BQ-391 charger that charges 4 x AA or 2 X AAA on individual circuits. 

Since I use a large number of AAAs I also purchased a BQ-321 which came with a set of AAA cells. That charger only charges in pairs (either 2 x AA or 2 x AAA) but it is extremely compact, and convenient for that reason.

As it turned out, I had ended up purchasing a total of 56 cells (30 AAAs & 26 AAs), but after about 8 years of use, my C9000 indicates that they still have the following capacities:

- 10 AAAs are between 94-91%, 4 are 89-87%, 3 are 77-72%, 12 are 69-64%, and 1 is at 57%.
- 21 AAs are between 99-90%, 4 are 87-82%, and 1 is at 69%

(I put the worst AAA into a LCD thermometer and it is doing fine. I will have to wait know for certain, but I suspect that despite its poor condition it will still be "useful" in that application for several months between recharge cycles.)

My point is that even after about 8 years, many of my Japanese rechargables are still going strong. 

Granted, these Evolta cells were not cheap. And, I am not really certain that I truly "got my money's worth" because I didn't keep any data. But, it sure seems to me like it has been well worth it (having never purchased any Alkalines since). And, if nothing else, the Japanese people are very concerned about how you dispose of batteries in Japan, so never having to throw any batteries away has been nice.

I just wanted to contrast my good experience with Japanese rechargeables with my bad experience with USA rechargeables that "died" in a matter of months, with only a ridiculously low number of charge cycles.


----------



## N8N (Sep 4, 2013)

I agree with both of you... the chargers available through retail channels are even worse than the cells that we have, with a few exceptions (Duraloops, etc.) and there really doesn't seem to be any marketing whatsoever. Also, the introduction of LSD cells is a Huge Deal in that you can now use rechargeables for remote controls, etc. and also it completely changes the way you deal with rechargeables - instead of having to maintain, rotate, recharge etc. even cells that you're not using, or else only use them when you have a day or two ahead of use to charge them up, you can simply charge them, put them in a storage box, and then get them out again when you need them with no hassle... and yet other than some buzzwords on the packaging this was pretty much unheralded in the US market. (and we're pretty inured to marketing anyway as we know it's all pretty much BS.)

The brief amount of time I spent in Japan I saw Eneloops right next to the regular cells in e.g. Lawson's, or in kiosks... took me a while to get around to trying them, but I wasn't disappointed once I finally made the leap. Being a Person of a Frugal Nature (hey, I grew up in PA in a family of German heritage, I come by it honestly) I like the idea that if I run out of juice, I can grab a fresh set, put the old ones on the charger, and for only a couple cents worth of electricity repeat as necessary... and that I'm not reliant on there being stores etc. when I need to power up something that runs on batteries.

It's even more frustrating to me (and I apologize if it sounds like I'm going off on a rant here) that it seems like SOP whenever I consider purchasing something (not limited to this example) is that I have to join an enthusiast forum, research something extensively to the point where I'm competent to choose products, then realize that what I'm looking for is not available through retail channels, and purchase online. While I don't like relying on stores, I do like to patronize local businesses if possible so that they'll be there if I do end up needing them. But they just aren't meeting my needs... not just for rechargeable cells but in many other ways. But, as I said, I rant...

But maybe that's just me...


----------



## BillSWPA (Sep 5, 2013)

This morning I thought I should check the alkaline batteries that were in an older scientific calculator. The batteries, which were made by a top manufacturer that I would continue to purchase from, had just started to leak. Fortunately the leaking substance was only on the batteries, and not on the calculator itself. Had I waited much longer to check, it would hve been a different story.

NiMH rechargeables are looking better and better.


----------



## HKJ (Sep 5, 2013)

BillSWPA said:


> NiMH rechargeables are looking better and better.



Or lithium (Not LiIon), depending on how much you are using the equipment.


----------



## SaraAB87 (Sep 6, 2013)

I am not sure if it chalks up to stupidity of the consumer in the US or what but really I think it's the chargers and the cells are fine, though someone with more money than me would have to do a test to see if a charger really does make a difference. Aka someone buys a cheap Duracell charger and batteries and uses it together as the package says and then buys a pack of the same Duracell cells and uses them in a good charger. Though I am not even sure if such a test is necessary as we all know what would likely happen.

I also think it has to do with being burned in the past, and a lot of people don't even understand the technology in rechargable batteries is much different today than it was 8 years ago with cells that actually hold a charge while in storage. None of this is conveyed through marketing. I only seem to see marketing for alkalines these days. A lot of people went back to alkalines after spending a chunk on one of those $18 energizer chargers from Walmart and got burned when the batteries lasted a couple cycles and then stopped holding a charge they just won't spent the initial investment again no matter what.

I also think the batteries could be damaged on the shelf from sitting too long, perhaps a lot of people got a set of batteries that sat for several years then refused to charge which could explain the quick death stories I hear from friends and family, this happened to me a couple times if a battery is too old it will only charge to a certain point then stop which means they never get full capacity out of the box, can be fixed with several refresh cycles but no chargers in retail stores are capable of doing a refresh cycle but if a store manages their inventory correctly this should not happen.

I also seem to have the problem that many of you have, there always seems to be a better product online than there is in the stores, I am guessing US retail is just concerned with meeting certain price points on their goods instead of actually providing a quality product that will last instead of something you have to replace after a couple uses. The thing is the better products are almost always available for a lower price online than is an inferior product in a store no wonder people are getting away from retail and doing more shopping online these days.

We also have few specialty shops in my area where items like these might be sold, in Japan there are specialty shops for everything everywhere, but I think a shop that specialized in electronics and batteries here wouldn't get far since the major chains would take them out before a month of business.

Our culture in the US is to buy what you can for the cheapest price up front regardless of how well it performs, which is why alkalines sell so much, they are easy and convienient and people who buy them for kids toys don't care since they just throw the toy out if the batteries leak in another disposal of yet another item when in the past the item was saved and passed down to another child. My parents were savers and big on hand me downs so this disposable throw it away even if it has a tiny defect culture is definitely news to me. I would even go so far as to say that parents throw away things that are perfectly working because they are too lazy to change the batteries in them, I have seen this happens lots of times. Even if you showed most general consumers the best batteries and gave demo's on how they performed only certain people would buy them, and probably not the people who can really benefit from them because no one simply wants to make that huge investment up front, they would rather pay $5 for a pack of 4 alkalines and be on their way. 

There are so many reasons to switch to Rechargables its not even funny.


----------



## StorminMatt (Sep 6, 2013)

SaraAB87 said:


> I am not sure if it chalks up to stupidity of the consumer in the US or what but really I think it's the chargers and the cells are fine, though someone with more money than me would have to do a test to see if a charger really does make a difference. Aka someone buys a cheap Duracell charger and batteries and uses it together as the package says and then buys a pack of the same Duracell cells and uses them in a good charger. Though I am not even sure if such a test is necessary as we all know what would likely happen.




Bad chargers can DEFINITELY cause problems. Cheap, 15 minute chargers that cook batteries and timer-based chargers that overcharge as a matter of course have certainly caused their fair share of problems with rechargeable batteries. But in my experience, cheap smart chargers can be the WORST. If one cell terminates early and you don't know about it, there is a very high chance that cell is going to go into reverse charge (because it went dead before the other cells) and be fried. At least timer-based trickle chargers will end up putting an equal charge on the batteries.




SaraAB87 said:


> I would even go so far as to say that parents throw away things that are perfectly working because they are too lazy to change the batteries in them, I have seen this happens lots of times.




You can blame alot of this on pricing. Alot of the time, if you buy some really cheap item that comes with batteries included, it could cost MORE to replace the batteries than to simply replace the item. This is especially common with really cheap flashlights. Perhaps the best example of this would be those small button cell LED flashlights that cost a dollar or two. If you were to replace the batteries, you would probably pay closer to $5-$6. It's not too different from the $30 printer that needs $40 of ink.


----------



## ST Dog (Sep 6, 2013)

N8N said:


> Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying to score some cheap Duraloops.
> 
> http://www.energizer.com/batteries/rechargeable-batteries/Pages/d.aspx
> 
> Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell?




Was looking at the comments section, and noticed a lot of complaints about the time to recharge as well.

Any idea why the charger Energizer sells for them that would take 24 hours to charge a 2500mAh battery?
Another commented 14 hours, which still sounds really long.
The manual for the "Recharge" universal "value" charger (that can do C/D/9V) says 12-14hrs.
In the manual it says 2.8V @ 180-200mA or 9V @ 11-18mA!

And the "universal" charger is a little better. 1100mA for 1 or 2, and 550mA for 3 or 4. Still 3-5 hrs.

The other chargers are all AA/AAA only. The "smart" charger any better, 500mA for AA.
The "rapid" charger is ok, with 8.6A for 2xAA or 4.3 for 4xAA.
But why not a version of the "rapid" charger for the C/D/9V sizes?

Those 500mA or less chargers should not even be offered. Trying to make the products fail.
If the only chargers for the C/D/9V sizes are that bad, no one will use them.
The 1100mA charger should be the low end, and a 8+A rapid charger available.
Maybe a 3rd between them.

And this response is priceless


> Energizer Recharge D Cell batteries are much less powerful than an alkaline battery. It's only a 1.2V battery with 2500mAh where the Energizer Max alkaline is 1.5V 20,500mAh. In a device like a baby swing they may not last as long per use however they can be recharged and used many times. Please call Energizer Consumer Affairs at 1.800.383.7323 to discuss this under the terms of our guarantee.


----------



## N8N (Sep 7, 2013)

SaraAB87 said:


> I am not sure if it chalks up to stupidity of the consumer in the US or what but really I think it's the chargers and the cells are fine, though someone with more money than me would have to do a test to see if a charger really does make a difference. Aka someone buys a cheap Duracell charger and batteries and uses it together as the package says and then buys a pack of the same Duracell cells and uses them in a good charger. Though I am not even sure if such a test is necessary as we all know what would likely happen.
> 
> I also think it has to do with being burned in the past, and a lot of people don't even understand the technology in rechargable batteries is much different today than it was 8 years ago with cells that actually hold a charge while in storage. None of this is conveyed through marketing. I only seem to see marketing for alkalines these days. A lot of people went back to alkalines after spending a chunk on one of those $18 energizer chargers from Walmart and got burned when the batteries lasted a couple cycles and then stopped holding a charge they just won't spent the initial investment again no matter what.



And that's kind of where I'm coming from here - that was exactly my experience in the past; I bought some NiMHs and a charger in some local store, possibly Target or K-Mart or something, they really didn't work very well,, so that stopped that. A few years later I'd vaguely heard of these things called Eneloops and that they worked well, but I was skeptical - if they were so good, surely they'd be available if not in normal stores at least in places that sold electronics, video game stores, places like that - but no, I never saw them. I still don't know where to get them in the US save from Amazon, eBay, Thomas Dist., places like that. Duracell had the Duraloops which simply on the product's quality should have been a big deal but I don't remember ever seeing ANY advertising for them, never mind any explaining the differences between them and old school NiCd or NiMH that consumers may have tried in the past - and given that they apparently switched suppliers for the black-top "staycharged" cells and we don't know who's making the new cells that they just introduced, I'm sticking with the brands I know and trust until some reports/reviews come out.



SaraAB87 said:


> I also think the batteries could be damaged on the shelf from sitting too long, perhaps a lot of people got a set of batteries that sat for several years then refused to charge which could explain the quick death stories I hear from friends and family, this happened to me a couple times if a battery is too old it will only charge to a certain point then stop which means they never get full capacity out of the box, can be fixed with several refresh cycles but no chargers in retail stores are capable of doing a refresh cycle but if a store manages their inventory correctly this should not happen.



Again, agree with your comments - but I just picked up some duraloops that had been sitting on the shelf for literally years, and they came right back after a break in cycle (and had over 500mAh in each cell to begin with.) That's a good product, but again, you need a good smart charger to properly charge them. There are acceptable smart chargers in the $30-60 price range; but again, you have to almost obsessive-compulsively research them and then mail order.



SaraAB87 said:


> I also seem to have the problem that many of you have, there always seems to be a better product online than there is in the stores, I am guessing US retail is just concerned with meeting certain price points on their goods instead of actually providing a quality product that will last instead of something you have to replace after a couple uses. The thing is the better products are almost always available for a lower price online than is an inferior product in a store no wonder people are getting away from retail and doing more shopping online these days.



Again, I agree completely...

If I had the seed money I'm wondering if I could make a go of starting an old school hardware/variety store where I would only sell products that I had personally used and considered acceptable for the intended purpose. e.g. my battery rack would have a few quality alkalines, some Energizer Ultimate Lithiums, and then a selection of Eneloop, Imedion, etc. and good smart chargers. If a customer would ask, or complain about the price, my response would be "these will work and not disappoint you. If you want to pay less you're free to do so, just not here - and I don't want to take your money when you'll be back in six months complaining about the crap that I sold you." Unfortunately, I'm not entirely certain that that attitude would resonate with your average consumer.

I would like to think that if the average person were actually educated on the difference between alkalines, lithium primaries, NiCd, NiMH, and LSD NiMH we would see that for general consumer use pretty much everyone would be using mostly LSD NiMH and maybe a few lithium primaries for mission critical applications, but that clearly isn't happening at least not looking at the percentage of display space given to each in your average store.

On a Usenet group that I occasionally read I saw a quote recently that struck home about the quality of consumer goods (from a poster that oddly I usually disagree with on most everything, but in this instance he was right on point) - I'm paraphrasing but it was something along the lines of "I am constantly annoyed that I have to become an expert on pretty much every subject before making a purchase to avoid disappointment." But he's right, and I seem to have the same issue - the number of diverse forums to which I'm subscribed is evidence that I'm attempting to do exactly that!

And almost but not quite completely off topic... I have two table radios in my house, one downstairs in a basement bedroom is an old German-made Blaupunkt that was built in 1957 or 58 as far as I can tell (still uses tubes, remember those?) and is running off its internal antenna. The one upstairs is a newer Tivoli unit that is well rated and not cheap at all to purchase, and has a split dipole tacked to the exterior wall behind it. My local NPR station is broadcasting with reduced power for tower maintenance. Guess which radio still reliably pulls in that station and which one is pretty much useless?


----------



## N8N (Sep 7, 2013)

Ironically, literally minutes after posting that, my laptop locked up and is giving me a ''disk error" when I tried to reboot. Now that was not how I was planning on spending my Saturday.

Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk 4


----------



## RCM (Sep 8, 2013)

I think energizer already killed rechargeable batteries for most people with their 2500 mAh cells! The 2500 mAh "D" cell they make, it really wouldnt surprise me if they have one of those cheap and nasty 2500 mAh cells stuck inside! My sister works at walgreens and told me she came across some leaking energizer AAA batteries! Doesn't surprise me in the least! Energizer cells are pure crap...even my own 2300 mAh energizer AA cells are showing higher internal resistance on charging now! Going to order some eneloops soon and be done with it!


----------



## idleprocess (Sep 8, 2013)

N8N said:


> And almost but not quite completely off topic... I have two table radios in my house, one downstairs in a basement bedroom is an old German-made Blaupunkt that was built in 1957 or 58 as far as I can tell (still uses tubes, remember those?) and is running off its internal antenna. The one upstairs is a newer Tivoli unit that is well rated and not cheap at all to purchase, and has a split dipole tacked to the exterior wall behind it. My local NPR station is broadcasting with reduced power for tower maintenance. Guess which radio still reliably pulls in that station and which one is pretty much useless?


Rose-colored glasses make the past seem so much more pleasant than it really was. Crap products get binned while quality products endure. The vintage stuff we admire today is generally representative of the best of the time while we look at the entire quality spectrum of contemporary products and are unsurprisingly disappointed since the modern product landscape is littered with both good and bad products.

Also, radio is not the focal point of people's leisure time entertainment that it once was, thus their overall willingness to pay for quality has dropped precipitously. In America, I suspect the only place you'll tend to find decent AM/FM radio receivers is the one place they're still used consistently - cars - with even home theater receivers having mediocre radios since it's one of the least-used features.


----------



## DougPenhall (Sep 9, 2013)

SaraAB87 said:


> I am not sure if it chalks up to stupidity of the consumer in the US or what but really I think it's the chargers and the cells are fine, though someone with more money than me would have to do a test to see if a charger really does make a difference. Aka someone buys a cheap Duracell charger and batteries and uses it together as the package says and then buys a pack of the same Duracell cells and uses them in a good charger. Though I am not even sure if such a test is necessary as we all know what would likely happen.



I bought a Lenmar R2G charger that came with 4 Lenmar R2G AA batteries plus two more packs of 8 additional batteries.

The first thing I did was try 4 of those batteries in a 2 port sprinkler timer. They worked for a few days, then got drained completely. I then tried to charge them in the Lenmar charger and it blinked red indicating that all 4 batteries had gone bad. I happen to have a Tenergy 4 port LiPO/PB/NiMH battery charger for my RC helicopters, so I decided to make a plastic tube so I could put all 4 batteries in series and try charging them on the NiMH setting. They charged with no problem and are working fine and now charge fine in the Lenmar charger. This basically means that the Lenmar charger is crap and won't charge dead NiMH batteries that are perfectly fine. Had I not had the Tenergy charger and some persistence I probably would have believed the Lenmar charger and thrown them away.

I've since bought a much better sprinkler timer, but these batteries still don't work in it, so I'm stuck with the only application of these batteries being one of my remotes. They work great, but all my other devices require LiPOs.


----------



## DougPenhall (Sep 9, 2013)

SaraAB87 said:


> they would rather pay $5 for a pack of 4 alkalines and be on their way.



$5 for 4? Try $8 for 40.
http://www.frys.com/product/6292860
(By the way, they suck)


----------



## GarageBoy (Sep 12, 2013)

Why does that baby swing running on D batteries not use a rechargeable sealed lead acid or something?



StorminMatt said:


> But another thing I really like about rechargeables is the way that they inspire what we might call a 'culture of abundance' rather than a 'culture of scarcity'. Alkaline batteries cost you money every time you use them. They can't be recharged. You have to throw them away and get new ones every time they are used up. Because they cost you, there is a desire to conserve them. Don't use that light (or other device) unless you REALLY have to because this is costing money. Put up with poor performance as the light dims because they're still working. You don't want to throw your money in the garbage too soon! Even if you're getting 30 of them for a few bucks at Costco, it's still costing money. And when they run out, you will be without batteries until you go out and get more. Rechargeables, on the other hand, cost a negligible amount of electricity to recharge. And you don't have to go anywhere to buy them when they are drained or wait to have new ones shipped. So you use them as much as you want. And if you're doing something with friends, you lend them out because they cost you nothing. No more conserving batteries just because you don't want to waste money.



That is exactly the reason I love Li Ions replacements for CR123 based lights, and why I babied my Surefire and abused my Fenix; the Fenix cost me nothing to run, and I didn't have to toss things in the garbage every week


----------



## SaraAB87 (Sep 13, 2013)

RCM said:


> I think energizer already killed rechargeable batteries for most people with their 2500 mAh cells! The 2500 mAh "D" cell they make, it really wouldnt surprise me if they have one of those cheap and nasty 2500 mAh cells stuck inside! My sister works at walgreens and told me she came across some leaking energizer AAA batteries! Doesn't surprise me in the least! Energizer cells are pure crap...even my own 2300 mAh energizer AA cells are showing higher internal resistance on charging now! Going to order some eneloops soon and be done with it!



I cannot speak for their newer cells but I too was sucked in by energizer and the fact that since they are a name brand that their rechargeables would be more quality than the generics, I had terrible performance from energizer cells. Now I can understand why someone would be put off from Rechargables for life if they had these batteries. No wonder Sams Club has (mostly) switched from Energizer to Duracell batteries even after they carried only Energizer for more than 15 years (I have been shopping there a long time). The only good ones are the lithiums.

Anyone remember buying the huge 24 packs of AA energizer alkalines and running them down in a Walkman cassette player, I sure do! Thank gosh we have eneloops now, and no I don't still use a cassette player though I still have a few around here.


----------



## StorminMatt (Sep 13, 2013)

SaraAB87 said:


> Anyone remember buying the huge 24 packs of AA energizer alkalines and running them down in a Walkman cassette player, I sure do! Thank gosh we have eneloops now, and no I don't still use a cassette player though I still have a few around here.



I don't think you can even buy prerecorded tapes anymore. And even though I've seen new blank tapes available on which you could record music, chances are most people no longer have a cassette deck that actually works. I'm not sure you can even buy a new one.

Anyway, the whole idea of burning through alkaline batteries with a Walkman brings up a point. Specifically, battery companies must be hurting BIG TIME these days. Why? Because we no longer burn through alkaline batteries like we once did. Rather than burning through alkaline batteries with a Walkman, we now listen to music on phones with proprietary (or, if you have an iPhone, inaccessible) Li-Ion batteries. And cameras virtually won't work on alkaline batteries (if we are talking about cameras that can actually work on alkalines). These days, alkalines are only used for remotes, clocks, and the odd flashlight, toy, or other device that uses batteries - mostly low draw stuff that doesn't burn through batteries. In other words, the proprietary Li-Ion battery pack (along with the general unsuitability of alkaline batteries for digital cameras) has certainly HEAVILY cut into the profits of battery manufacturers.


----------



## zespectre (Sep 13, 2013)

idleprocess said:


> You would be amazed how many people are aware of NiMH and even _LSD_-NiMH that still buy alkalines. Unless it's a device they use near-daily, they just can't be bothered with the higher per-cell cost, additional expense of a charger, and the "hassle" of recharging.



NiMH and even LSD NiMH are still not appropriate for all applications, especially super low draw, long duration items like smoke detectors/CO detectors and a lot of clocks/calenders.


----------



## ST Dog (Sep 13, 2013)

StorminMatt said:


> I don't think you can even buy prerecorded tapes anymore. And even though I've seen new blank tapes available on which you could record music, chances are most people no longer have a cassette deck that actually works. I'm not sure you can even buy a new one.



Sure you can http://www.radioshack.com/family/in...+decks&filterName=Type&filterValue=Dual+decks 

Turntables too http://www.radioshack.com/family/in...llCount=22&f=PAD/Product+Type/Turntables&pg=1

As for battery manufacturer profits, that's why they are marketing other types now. You can even still buy carbon/zinc heavy duty batteries, go figure. Like most other industries though. They are made somewhere else, labeled for different brands, and then marketed. I doubt may cells are produced in any western, industrial country anymore, mainly due to the environmental regulations.


----------



## idleprocess (Sep 13, 2013)

zespectre said:


> NiMH and even LSD NiMH are still not appropriate for all applications, especially super low draw, long duration items like smoke detectors/CO detectors and a lot of clocks/calenders.



Indeed, but the people I was referring to were using alkalines for everything because they have some hangup or conceptual issue about recharging batteries aside from cases where they have no choice like proprietary li-ion batteries for cell phones, cameras, etc.


----------



## SaraAB87 (Sep 14, 2013)

StorminMatt said:


> I don't think you can even buy prerecorded tapes anymore. And even though I've seen new blank tapes available on which you could record music, chances are most people no longer have a cassette deck that actually works. I'm not sure you can even buy a new one.
> 
> Anyway, the whole idea of burning through alkaline batteries with a Walkman brings up a point. Specifically, battery companies must be hurting BIG TIME these days. Why? Because we no longer burn through alkaline batteries like we once did. Rather than burning through alkaline batteries with a Walkman, we now listen to music on phones with proprietary (or, if you have an iPhone, inaccessible) Li-Ion batteries. And cameras virtually won't work on alkaline batteries (if we are talking about cameras that can actually work on alkalines). These days, alkalines are only used for remotes, clocks, and the odd flashlight, toy, or other device that uses batteries - mostly low draw stuff that doesn't burn through batteries. In other words, the proprietary Li-Ion battery pack (along with the general unsuitability of alkaline batteries for digital cameras) has certainly HEAVILY cut into the profits of battery manufacturers.



My camera works on AA batteries, one of the canons that still use AA. Also the reason the Walkman burned through so many is the reason the cassette deck would actually become slow and your music would sound slower when the batteries were dying, you put fresh batteries in and it worked perfect again.

This is a problem but there are still many battery draining devices on the market, lots of video game accessories and controllers especially the Wii ones burn through batteries, there are also a ton of children's products such as leapsters and innotabs that can burn through 4 AA's a day. My Skylanders portal takes 3 AA's and some people report it dying within 2-3 days with alkaline but I can get a few weeks with 3 Duraloops. Though I think some of these products are going to be moving to li-ion soon like everything else which will hurt the battery industry even more. Video game controllers will definitely have chargable battery packs this gen but the Wii remote is still relevant and the Xbox One controller still uses AA but you can get a li polymer pack for it. Most of the other toys kids have will use 2-4 AA per year or less per toy so those won't sell AA batteries as much. Lets not forget the Tamagotchi which is simply the king of draining 2032 size coin batteries, though bandai stopped making the tamagotchi for the US market in 2010 and their last model was a larger size and used AAA's.


----------



## jtr1962 (Sep 14, 2013)

SaraAB87 said:


> My camera works on AA batteries, one of the canons that still use AA. Also the reason the Walkman burned through so many is the reason the cassette deck would actually become slow and your music would sound slower when the batteries were dying, you put fresh batteries in and it worked perfect again.
> 
> This is a problem but there are still many battery draining devices on the market, lots of video game accessories and controllers especially the Wii ones burn through batteries, there are also a ton of children's products such as leapsters and innotabs that can burn through 4 AA's a day. My Skylanders portal takes 3 AA's and some people report it dying within 2-3 days with alkaline but I can get a few weeks with 3 Duraloops. Though I think some of these products are going to be moving to li-ion soon like everything else which will hurt the battery industry even more. Video game controllers will definitely have chargable battery packs this gen but the Wii remote is still relevant and the Xbox One controller still uses AA but you can get a li polymer pack for it. Most of the other toys kids have will use 2-4 AA per year or less per toy so those won't sell AA batteries as much. Lets not forget the Tamagotchi which is simply the king of draining 2032 size coin batteries, though bandai stopped making the tamagotchi for the US market in 2010 and their last model was a larger size and used AAA's.


I have to say I would honestly be really surprised if people used alkalines in devices which go through one set a day. That gets seriously expensive, especially if you pay the typical retail store prices for alkalines of $4 per 4-pack, or more. That said, I do remember my sister's in-laws spending about $30 a week on batteries for their children's toys. I rarely saw them, but I would have loved to have a long talk with them about the benefits of rechargeables. Devices where you go through one or two sets of batteries a year are another story. Things where you can drain a set of batteries in a day-ouch! Those are tailor made for rechargeables.


----------



## SaraAB87 (Sep 14, 2013)

jtr1962 said:


> I have to say I would honestly be really surprised if people used alkalines in devices which go through one set a day. That gets seriously expensive, especially if you pay the typical retail store prices for alkalines of $4 per 4-pack, or more. That said, I do remember my sister's in-laws spending about $30 a week on batteries for their children's toys. I rarely saw them, but I would have loved to have a long talk with them about the benefits of rechargeables. Devices where you go through one or two sets of batteries a year are another story. Things where you can drain a set of batteries in a day-ouch! Those are tailor made for rechargeables.



I don't think I have ever had a toy that drained that much even as a kid, I am not sure if its due to kids leaving things on when they need to be turned off, but apparently some people complain about certain toys draining a set of AA alkaline within a day or 2, I think mainly the leapsters and innotabs have this problem and some of them use 3 AAA making it worse since most dumb chargers can only do 2-4 batteries. Yes these devices have optional AC adapters but that requires being tethered to an outlet and they do make charging packs for these things but those are just 3-4 AA Rechargables packed into a plastic shell and we all know how well those work, they ,simply don't. I have had very bad experiences with charger packs at least those that are 2-4 AA Nimh strapped into a plastic pack with either a USB or wall charger included. Most don't work after a few charges, most others have the same experience except in rare cases. If you have a leapster or innotab and kids you basically NEED the type of Rechargables and chargers talked about on this site. Moreover people should know that buying kids a tablet that takes AA especially 3 AA is a bad idea if you don't want to buy batteries constantly and for the cost of the device, software and batteries you could probably afford $500 for an iPad easily and not have to buy batteries. But I don't think people realize how bad the draining is until they get the device and their kids won't put it down.

My personal experience with the skylanders portal is that the batteries will last at least 3 weeks with Duraloops but I am guessing kids play more than my 1-2 hours every couple days and I really don't want to have to play skylanders for 8 hours straight to find out how long the portal really lasts. I am also pretty sure it turns off automatically if its not used for a certain amount of time but it does stay on the whole time you play the game. In case anyone is unfamiliar skylanders is a video game played with action figures and you use the portal to transport the figures into the game. There are wired versions of the portal but apparently they don't work on the Wii because I have tried and I am playing on the Wii which means I need 5 batteries, 3 for the portal and 2 for the remote. I don't really care because I have tons of Rechargables. My point here is for parent with kids this could get seriously expensive but I guess if you can afford skylanders figures then you can afford batteries for the remote and portal although it is money being unnecessarily spent especially if you were spending $30 a week on batteries you could buy the most premium rechargable battery gear with the cost of 3 weeks worth of alkaline and you wouldn't have to spend more money on batteries for a long time. Also all that alkaline going into the trash.....yikes...

But judging by the type of consumer I talk to this is what people are doing, picking up a pack of batteries at the store every time their kid needs them..warehouse club members at least buy the bulk packs as I did when I was draining batteries in the Walkman, I don't recall having to buy more than 2-3 huge packs of those energizer AA's a year so it was better than getting alkaline at the store. I do see a ton of people buying the bulk packs so that is at least somewhat encouraging.

Also add to the battery draining list of toys the furby, that thing is insane, one of mine killed a set of 4 eneloops in under a day (and also got very hot in the process) bad idea to keep it on for a really long time. I don't have it anymore nor do I have any of the new model furby so I can't comment on those.


----------



## frank10 (Sep 19, 2013)

GarageBoy said:


> Why does that baby swing running on D batteries not use a rechargeable sealed lead acid or something?
> 
> That is exactly the reason I love Li Ions replacements for CR123 based lights, and why I babied my Surefire and abused my Fenix; the Fenix cost me nothing to run, and I didn't have to toss things in the garbage every week



My guess is the swing maker doesn't want Li batteries in the product for safety concerns. Also, they can pass the battery cost onto the consumer.


----------



## Wrend (Sep 19, 2013)

zespectre said:


> NiMH and even LSD NiMH are still not appropriate for all applications, especially super low draw, long duration items like smoke detectors/CO detectors and a lot of clocks/calenders.



Actually, they can work fairly well for many of these devices too. They may just need to get changed out for charged cells a little sooner than these devices would go through alkaline cells. With the regular Eneloops, you're talking about roughly 2/3 run time compared to alkaline cells, and with the Eneloop XX cells, maybe roughly 5/6 the run time.

I use AAA Eneloops in a portable RF synchronized alarm clock, for example, and they last for more than a year. I just switch them out once a year to make sure that the alarm clock doesn't run out of juice and fail to wake me up. I also use them in my TI-89 calculator, remotes, wireless keyboards and mice, and they can last a year or more in those devices as well. 

Also, keep in mind that the alkaline cells' voltage discharge curve is more linear as it discharges it's capacity, so much of the capacity may be lower than the device needs to run sufficiently, while Eneloops' discharge voltage curve is more of an S-curve, and they will maintain a voltage higher than 1.2V per cell for 90% or more of their charged capacity.


----------



## y_p_w (Sep 19, 2013)

frank10 said:


> My guess is the swing maker doesn't want Li batteries in the product for safety concerns. Also, they can pass the battery cost onto the consumer.


Uh - price. Most toys don't even come with batteries. Someone sees the price and doesn't factor in that 3-6 D cells are going to cost $5 or more. And a lead-acid battery is going to need a charger, and most of these toys are meant to be moved around without cords. How much does all that stuff add to the price? Additionally, those lead-acid batteries will inevitably sulfate when unused and uncharged for a few months, and then what kind of complaints will they have?

I do remember using a 90s era Sony cordless phone with a sealed lead-acid battery. Eventually the battery was gone, and the generic replacements were at least $10 and the OEM battery was at least $15. This thing was the size of 3 AAs. Eventually I ended up getting a Siemens Gigaset 2.4 GHz DSS phone. The greatest thing about that phone (still working today) is that the handsets could take a pair of any NiCad or NiMH AA batteries and charge them when placed in a cradle. They had a listed 12 hour talk time with 1200 mAh AAs, but I'm thinking were much longer with higher capacity batteries. Right now I've got Eneloops in all of them except for one. The batteries do die after several years, but that's normal. Most people who replace those proprietary battery packs in cordless phones end up getting lousy quality aftermarket equivalents with low capacity and poor life. I put in top of the line cylindrical cells.


----------



## SaraAB87 (Sep 19, 2013)

y_p_w said:


> Uh - price. Most toys don't even come with batteries. Someone sees the price and doesn't factor in that 3-6 D cells are going to cost $5 or more. And a lead-acid battery is going to need a charger, and most of these toys are meant to be moved around without cords. How much does all that stuff add to the price? Additionally, those lead-acid batteries will inevitably sulfate when unused and uncharged for a few months, and then what kind of complaints will they have?
> 
> I do remember using a 90s era Sony cordless phone with a sealed lead-acid battery. Eventually the battery was gone, and the generic replacements were at least $10 and the OEM battery was at least $15. This thing was the size of 3 AAs. Eventually I ended up getting a Siemens Gigaset 2.4 GHz DSS phone. The greatest thing about that phone (still working today) is that the handsets could take a pair of any NiCad or NiMH AA batteries and charge them when placed in a cradle. They had a listed 12 hour talk time with 1200 mAh AAs, but I'm thinking were much longer with higher capacity batteries. Right now I've got Eneloops in all of them except for one. The batteries do die after several years, but that's normal. Most people who replace those proprietary battery packs in cordless phones end up getting lousy quality aftermarket equivalents with low capacity and poor life. I put in top of the line cylindrical cells.



I am guessing a baby swing isn't used all that much, unless your baby somehow gets addicted to it, and I am not going into that here, but most parents I know probably used it 30 min a day per baby, so maybe replace the batteries every couple months. As far as i know they have been using D batteries in baby swings for years and years. As far as I can see here we aren't talking about a large quantity of batteries unless you have a lot of kids, which in that case then you have to realize that everything will be more expensive no matter what. The baby will outgrow the swing within a year most likely so we aren't talking about something that is getting 4-5 hours a day use or more like a leapster or innotab that a kid can't put down.

I just happened to be in GameStop during the GTA V launch and they were pushing alkaline batteries with a hard sell like I have never seen before, they had a special table set up with batteries and everything, they were charging $6 for 4 Duracells... Sigh.. I proceeded to inform people about eneloops. I don't think anyone listened but it was worth a try. It's scary to think about how much money people have spent on batteries for video game controllers!


----------



## y_p_w (Sep 19, 2013)

SaraAB87 said:


> I am guessing a baby swing isn't used all that much, unless your baby somehow gets addicted to it, and I am not going into that here, but most parents I know probably used it 30 min a day per baby, so maybe replace the batteries every couple months. As far as i know they have been using D batteries in baby swings for years and years. As far as I can see here we aren't talking about a large quantity of batteries unless you have a lot of kids, which in that case then you have to realize that everything will be more expensive no matter what. The baby will outgrow the swing within a year most likely so we aren't talking about something that is getting 4-5 hours a day use or more like a leapster or innotab that a kid can't put down.
> 
> I just happened to be in GameStop during the GTA V launch and they were pushing alkaline batteries with a hard sell like I have never seen before, they had a special table set up with batteries and everything, they were charging $6 for 4 Duracells... Sigh.. I proceeded to inform people about eneloops. I don't think anyone listened but it was worth a try. It's scary to think about how much money people have spent on batteries for video game controllers!


OK - two parter.....

I have a lot of experience with baby toys over the past few years, although never a baby swing. Jumpers, crib toys, motorized mobiles, fancy electronic pens (Leapfrog TAG), etc. There is absolutely no standardization, and we've used everything from AAs, AAAs, 9V, Cs, and Ds. I figured that we'd use some of these so little that I ended up getting "heavy duty" batteries at a dollar store for some of them. And it worked out when some of these came in 3-packs and the devices took 3 cells. However, a lot of these now use AAs, although I still only used alkalines most of the time. I know it's a waste, but often I didn't feel like pulling out a screwdriver all the time.

The AA/AAA NiMH batteries I use are for flashlights, headlamps, and radios. If I need 3 I keep the sets together. Some devices I have use 4 like cameras and a USB power supply. Those I have no issue swapping out as interchageable. I try to have ones I can identify as sets without marking them. I've bought several of the Eneloop sets at Costco, and they have two shades of blue for the AAs and two shades of green for the AAAs. Even with the same colors, the date codes are enough to identify a set.

As for batteries and games, I remember my old Atari Lynx. I did get a set complete with AC power adapter, but for playing on the road I went to Costco and got NiCad rechargeables from the 90s. They were Saft overnight timed chargers and batteries. I don't think they were great by today's standards, but NiCads were the only viable rechargeable option at the time. I was a college student with limited funds, so I knew that I wasn't going to be able to afford operating that thing on alkalines.


----------



## y_p_w (Sep 19, 2013)

I do remember the disaster that was the Rayovac Renewal (later just the Rayovac Rechargeable Alkaline). I'd bought the 4 position AA/AAA charger and even went crazy once and got the 8 position one that also charged C and D cells, and even got some Cs for use in a Cateye bike headlight. Those original chargers were only made in the US, were only made for their rechargeable alkalines, and were interesting. I remember if I put a completely charged battery in there, the light would turn off almost immediately. I could never get that out of any other rechargeable battery. However, the one thing I remember about those was that their C and D cells were high capacity cells that weighed as much as any other alkaline and had the initial capacity to match them.

Later they changed their chargers to ones that were designed to auto-detect NiCad, NiMH, or rechargeable alkalines. They were then made in China and didn't seem to have that quick turn off when a fully charged alkaline was placed in there. Even though I already had some of the earlier chargers, these were the cheapest "smart chargers" (the 4 position AA/AAA version was only about $10) I knew of on the market and they could charge odd numbers of cells with each cell charged individually. I used this a couple of these for my first NiMH batteries. At least until one of them overcharged their alkalines, which leaked into the charger and damaged it. So I called up Rayovac and without having to send it in they sent me a full set of rechargeable alkalines and a new 4-position alkaline/NiCad/NiMH charger that also charged C/D cells. They didn't even ask me if it was the larger charger or just the version that did AA/AAA. I know it wasn't a great charger, but this was my introduction to NiMH batteries, as my older timed chargers were wholly unsuitable for them.

The market for C/D rechargeables barely exists. Energizer Battery Co doesn't even make or design any rechargeable batteries or chargers and I don't believe they have for more than a decade. The ones they did make weren't very good compared to what other companies (mainly Sanyo) produced. They simply buy from suppliers now. I doubt they're trying to kill the market since they're not a leader in the market. It just fills a niche.


----------



## SaraAB87 (Sep 21, 2013)

y_p_w said:


> OK - two parter.....
> 
> I have a lot of experience with baby toys over the past few years, although never a baby swing. Jumpers, crib toys, motorized mobiles, fancy electronic pens (Leapfrog TAG), etc. There is absolutely no standardization, and we've used everything from AAs, AAAs, 9V, Cs, and Ds. I figured that we'd use some of these so little that I ended up getting "heavy duty" batteries at a dollar store for some of them. And it worked out when some of these came in 3-packs and the devices took 3 cells. However, a lot of these now use AAs, although I still only used alkalines most of the time. I know it's a waste, but often I didn't feel like pulling out a screwdriver all the time.
> 
> ...



If you have kids you would have to have some kind of system for Rechargables and they would have to be taught about them, which would require them to be old enough to at least comprehend things. Also sometimes there are so many toys that you couldn't possibly have Rechargables in all them without spending a fortune and losing some batteries and if they are lost that would be bad. I would suggest getting a bulk pack of alkalines for these purposes, obviously in the more high drain toys or more expensive toys that you intend to resell when your kid is done with them I would put Rechargables in those but otherwise most toys won't eat through even one set of eneloops in the lifetime they will be used. So it's definitely not wrong to use alkalines in some applications, especially if its throw away toys. They have bulk packs of batteries on slickdeals often and you can get them at places like the Home Depot, if you don't have Sam's or Costco memberships.

My cousins didn't have problems with batteries when they were babies, and they had a baby swing that took D batteries. But of course everything is more expensive now than when they were young enough to use a baby swing. Now they have a Wii, and a million other gadgets now that the kids are older and I give them 20 alkalines and they are gone in a couple weeks. I can only imagine how much they are spending on batteries, and I see them with the expensive little packs of batteries too.


----------



## ALW248 (Oct 3, 2013)

GarageBoy said:


> Why does that baby swing running on D batteries not use a rechargeable sealed lead acid or something?



To prevent baby from touching 100v.


----------



## Arilou (Oct 8, 2013)

y_p_w said:


> I do remember the disaster that was the Rayovac Renewal (later just the Rayovac Rechargeable Alkaline). I'd bought the 4 position AA/AAA charger and even went crazy once and got the 8 position one that also charged C and D cells, and even got some Cs for use in a Cateye bike headlight. Those original chargers were only made in the US, were only made for their rechargeable alkalines, and were interesting. I remember if I put a completely charged battery in there, the light would turn off almost immediately. I could never get that out of any other rechargeable battery. However, the one thing I remember about those was that their C and D cells were high capacity cells that weighed as much as any other alkaline and had the initial capacity to match them.



The iGo rechargeable alkalines do that. It's not quite immediate, but if you put in a fully charged battey, the charger will turn off after a minute or two. AFAIK, these are made by Pure Energy, the same company that made the Rayovac Renewals. They don't seem to make the C and D size batteries any more.


----------



## frank10 (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm still trying to get the kids to use rechargeables more. Seems they only want to use them when there aren't any non-rechargeables left. Also, some of these toys can take 6 AAs, which means two charging cycles with my charger.



SaraAB87 said:


> If you have kids you would have to have some kind of system for Rechargables and they would have to be taught about them, which would require them to be old enough to at least comprehend things. Also sometimes there are so many toys that you couldn't possibly have Rechargables in all them without spending a fortune and losing some batteries and if they are lost that would be bad. I would suggest getting a bulk pack of alkalines for these purposes, obviously in the more high drain toys or more expensive toys that you intend to resell when your kid is done with them I would put Rechargables in those but otherwise most toys won't eat through even one set of eneloops in the lifetime they will be used. So it's definitely not wrong to use alkalines in some applications, especially if its throw away toys. They have bulk packs of batteries on slickdeals often and you can get them at places like the Home Depot, if you don't have Sam's or Costco memberships.
> 
> My cousins didn't have problems with batteries when they were babies, and they had a baby swing that took D batteries. But of course everything is more expensive now than when they were young enough to use a baby swing. Now they have a Wii, and a million other gadgets now that the kids are older and I give them 20 alkalines and they are gone in a couple weeks. I can only imagine how much they are spending on batteries, and I see them with the expensive little packs of batteries too.


----------



## N8N (Oct 10, 2013)

frank10 said:


> I'm still trying to get the kids to use rechargeables more. Seems they only want to use them when there aren't any non-rechargeables left. Also, some of these toys can take 6 AAs, which means two charging cycles with my charger.



Maybe the solution is to have extra AAs charged up and on hand so that there's no down-time when the cells go dead? Just a thought. Don't know if you're doing that already or not.


----------



## T0rch (Oct 10, 2013)

The selection of rechargeable in stores is frustrating. I agree with the op that it seems like Energizer is trying to dominate shelves. Several stores near me either only carry Energizer, or if they do carry anything else Energizer is still 80% of the whats available. I wouldn't know about Eneloops, lsd technology, etc, if not for the internet.

I think people just don't want to wait 12 hours when they need to charge some batteries, especially kids....of any age. That and the wall chargers you find in stores in kit form are not that great. So alkaline still dominates. I got my kid to get with the program by having charged up batteries on hand.


----------



## HKJ (Oct 10, 2013)

T0rch said:


> I think people just don't want to wait 12 hours when they need to charge some batteries, especially kids....of any age. That and the wall chargers you find in stores in kit form are not that great. So alkaline still dominates. I got my kid to get with the program by having charged up batteries on hand.



Get a decent charger, with 1A charge current it only takes to 2 to 2½ hour to charge a NiMH battery.
I mostly uses a MH-C9000 (Analyzing charger 4 way, can do 1A) and a MH-801D (8 way 1A or 2A charger).


----------



## T0rch (Oct 10, 2013)

HKJ said:


> Get a decent charger, with 1A charge current it only takes to 2 to 2½ hour to charge a NiMH battery.
> I mostly uses a MH-C9000 (Analyzing charger 4 way, can do 1A) and a MH-801D (8 way 1A or 2A charger).



I have an iCharger 306b currently.


----------



## HKJ (Oct 10, 2013)

T0rch said:


> I have an iCharger 306b currently.



Definitely not the charger for loose NiMH cells.


----------



## T0rch (Oct 10, 2013)

HKJ said:


> Definitely not the charger for loose NiMH cells.



Why's that? It works fine for every different kind of battery I've used it for.

Edit: With loose cells I've been charging four at a time.


----------



## HKJ (Oct 10, 2013)

T0rch said:


> Why's that? It works fine for every different kind of battery I've used it for.



Because it only takes one at a time and is "difficult" to operate. With AA batteries you usual uses more than one at a time, this makes it slow and cumbersome to charge the batteries with a hobby charger.
It is not that I am against hobby chargers, I have a couple and is using them often, but not to charge AA or AAA batteries and with the newer Xtar chargers I do also charge many of my LiIons in a cradle charger.


----------



## 5pyral (Oct 11, 2013)

I would bet this is true. You don't see oil companies working on solar cars. I am just getting into Li-Ion cells for my lights. What a money saver! Those 123s were getting expensive.


----------



## SaraAB87 (Oct 11, 2013)

Having charged batteries on hand is the solution, but that also means you have to buy more batteries than you need. This is what I do, I usually always have 4 charged in the box. Since eneloops don't lose all their charge over time like previous cells you can leave them till they are ready to use without worry.

You can save your Rechargables by putting alkalines or cheaper batteries of some sort in the cheap, low drain toys, just watch out for leaks if the toys are stored or forgotten about.


----------



## idleprocess (Oct 11, 2013)

5pyral said:


> I would bet this is true. You don't see oil companies working on solar cars. I am just getting into Li-Ion cells for my lights. What a money saver! Those 123s were getting expensive.



Solar cars perhaps not, but at least one of them is serious about solar power...


----------



## StorminMatt (Oct 11, 2013)

idleprocess said:


> Solar cars perhaps not, but at least one of them is serious about solar power...



Oil interests aside, you'll never see a solar car that's anything more than a curiosity or a college project. Solar energy is just far too diffuse for something the size of a car to intercept enough of it to power the car. Stationary PV panels could certainly be used to charge electric vehicles. And maybe you could even have a roof mounted panel to charge the batteries on an electric vehicle to some degree while parked or in an emergency (ie dead battery in the middle of nowhere). But onboard photovoltaic panels will never be able to provide enough power for a car to cruise at 65MPH on even a level road.


----------



## Arilou (Oct 11, 2013)

They're sure trying to kill sales with this junk (read the reviews)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00164BTMC/?tag=cpf0b6-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0031JYRCY/?tag=cpf0b6-20


----------



## StorminMatt (Oct 11, 2013)

Arilou said:


> They're sure trying to kill sales with this junk (read the reviews)
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00164BTMC/?tag=cpf0b6-20
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0031JYRCY/?tag=cpf0b6-20



You would think that, if Energizer was serious about NiMH, they would contract with Tenergy for C and D batteries. Tenergy's C and D batteries are both reasonably priced. And the quality is good.


----------



## Beacon of Light (Oct 16, 2013)

I am in the camp that since the mid 90s when NiMH became THEE go-to rechargeable battery, there is literally no need for alkalines AT ALL. Seeing alkaline batteries at any satore now in 2013, it feels like somehow I traveled time back to 1970, but I have knowledge of the future and know of the benefit of LSD rechargeables, only I cannot tell a soul. It is weird that people still buy alkalines with the NiMH batteries being out for almost 20 years now. I too would have expected alkalines to have become extinct by now. I know for me I never buy them and haven't bought primaries since before NiCads even and that was early 90s. Buying primaries in 2013 you'd have to be a sucker.


----------



## Beacon of Light (Oct 16, 2013)

jtr1962 said:


> Really, this is a case of Energizer treating customers like morons and also blatantly trying to extend the shelf life of a product which was functionally obsolete about three years ago.



only 3 years? Heck it seems since even Nicads were around since the late 80s, primaries became dead to me...


----------



## N8N (Oct 16, 2013)

Beacon of Light said:


> only 3 years? Heck it seems since even Nicads were around since the late 80s, primaries became dead to me...



More than 3 years for sure... Eneloops hit the market in 2005, so say 2006 or so is when everyone should have realized alkaleaks were dead. Unfortunately it hasn't happened yet... Duracell at least sold 'loops and speculation is that their new 'ion core' are Eneloop XX rebranded... would be great if so, now to get smart chargers in stores!

Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk


----------



## Beacon of Light (Oct 16, 2013)

N8N said:


> It'd be way more honest to just sell AA to D adapter sleeves like eneloop does, and more practical too as many chargers will take AAs but not Cs or Ds, and then you're not using "special" cells in your D cell using devices. Although I wish that the 3xAA to D adapters were more readily available, those get you to at least the same order of magnitude of capacity as a real D cell. I saw in another thread that there's a Chinese eBay seller selling them (and the 4xAAA to C) for a reasonable price, just waiting on a quality report before ordering. And yeah, the price is kind of high, it's about the same for 2xD as the regular price for 4xAA Duraloops. Or only slightly less than Tenergy Centura Ds. The Centura Cs are actually less than the 2500 mAh Energizer Cs on Amazon!
> 
> Or to look at it another way, the cheap "CTA" cells that DX sells are likely better than these!



Anyone have these 2xAAA C cell adapters or 3xAA D cell adapters? Where to buy and what are the quality of these?


----------



## N8N (Oct 16, 2013)

Beacon of Light said:


> Anyone have these 2xAAA C cell adapters or 3xAA D cell adapters? Where to buy and what are the quality of these?



I posted a review of them here

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ot-World-Electric-Fan-quot-eBay-cell-adapters

they were $5.99 each w/ free shipping last time I checked, but the guy cut me a little break because I got 5 of each type.


----------



## jtr1962 (Oct 16, 2013)

Beacon of Light said:


> only 3 years? Heck it seems since even Nicads were around since the late 80s, primaries became dead to me...


I was being charitable on the assumption that it might take a few years before Eneloops entered the public consciousness. And yes, to me also primaries have been pretty much dead since Nicads were around. I remember the "good" old days of 600 mAh AA Nicads. Nowadays we no longer have to put up with low capacity or high self-discharge, and yet rechargeables are _still_ off the radar for many people.


----------

