# Niwalker MiniMax Nova MM15 (2xMT-G2, 4x18650) REVISED Prototype Review: RUNTIMES+



## selfbuilt (Feb 11, 2014)

*Warning: pic heavy, as usual. *

_*Reviewer's note:* This is the second prototype sent to me by Niwalker for review and feedback (see my initial prototype assessment here). *To see my review of the final shipping version, please follow this thread. * _











As before, the MiniMax is a flood light that comes with two high-output MT-G2 emitters, and is powered by 4x18650. Specs are largely unknown as present, so I will jump right into the comparisons.

_I will also give a summary of all the changes from the first prototype at the end of the review._ :wave:













From left to right: Eagletac Protected 18650 3400mAh; Niwalker MiniMax Nova MM15 prototype #2, prototype #1; Foursevens MMU-X3; Jetbeam SRA-40; Sunwayman T45C; Eagletac SX25L3.

All dimensions directly measured, and given with no batteries installed (unless indicated):

*MiniMax Nova MM15 Prototype #2*: Weight (with handle): 332.7g (516g with 4x18650), Length: 115.3mm, Weight (bezel): 60.7mm
*MiniMax Nova MM15 Prototype #1*: Weight: 268.3g (452g with 4x18650), Length: 114.0mm, Weight (bezel): 58.0mm
*Eagletac SX25L3 3x18650*: Weight: 315.9g, Length: 150.2mm, Weight (bezel): 47.0mm
*[Crelant 7G10*: Weight 643.4g (827g with 4x18650), Length: 198mm, Width (bezel): 79.0mm
*Fenix TK75*: Weight: 516.0g (700g with 4x18650), Length: 184mm, Width (bezel): 87.5mm
*Nitecore TM11*: Weight: 342.6g (476g with 8xCR123A), Length 135.3mm, Width (bezel): 59.5mm 
*Niwalker BK-FA01*: Weight: 687.6g (870g with 4x18650), Length: 209mm, Width (bezel): 80.0mm, Width (tailcap): 50.3mm

As before, the MiniMax is the smallest 4x18650 light I've tested to date – compare it to Nitecore TM11 to get an idea. oo:

Let's start with a reminder of the what the first prototype looked like:






And now, the new prototype #2:


































I said it on the first prototype review, and I'll say it again – this is a remarkably tiny light! oo:

Exterior styling has been updated, but overall size and dimensions are not very different. The head is slightly wider at the top, and the light is slightly longer – but only by a millimeter or two in each direction. Anodizing is a black matte finish (presumed to be HA), and is in good shape on my samples (except for the screw threads, see below). There was still no labeling on my second prototype sample. 

There is also still no real knurling to speak of, and ridge detail has actually been reduced from the earlier sample. But there is a new removable aluminum handle and lanyard attachment point now, so overall grip and anti-roll is good. One comment here – the handle is located very close to the body, so there is not a lot of room for your fingers.

The integrated battery carrier has been updated slightly, and there is now a protecting piece of plastic at the end of the exposed carrier end plate. Height of the built-in carrier appears to have been increased slightly, as it is now a bit easier to insert longer 18650 cells (the original carrier was very tight for length). That said, you may still find longer or wider high-capacity 18650s a bit of a challenge in this light. 

As before, the four 18650 cells are in series, not parallel (i.e., 4s1p). There have been some circuit updates however, so please see my analysis below for user interface changes and standby drain/lockout. 

As before, the body's aluminum handle is really just a protective cover - you can run the light without it. Threading is unchanged from first prototype – square-cut threads, but with worn anodizing. Of course, that doesn't matter, since there is no current passing through the body cover. 

The head region has been re-designed, and is better organized. The switch is located directly in front of the handle, with a revised button cover (it now appears to be made of stainless steel). The center "N" logo is raised with a "grippier" texture. Switch traverse/feel is pretty much unchanged, and about typical for an electronic switch. The tripod attachment point has been move to directly opposite the switch on the head.

Again, here is the MiniMax Prototype #1:





And the MiniMax Prototype #2:













As before, the MiniMax runs off two MT-G2 emitters in relatively shallow reflector wells. The main difference now is that the reflector is more of a "light orange peel (LOP)" finish, compared to the heavily textured earlier prototype. This has not appreciably changed the beam – it is still very much a flood light (scroll down for beam shots). 

A stainless steel bezel ring has replaced the previous black (presumably aluminum) one.

*User Interface*

The user interface has been updated from the earlier prototype.

As before, turn the light on/off by the electronic switch. There is no momentary mode – once you release the switch, the light comes on in constant output.

Previously, the light always comes on in Hi mode first – the new prototype has mode memory (for the regular non-Turbo modes). It also has one additional regular mode, intermediate in output from the previous Hi and Turbo levels (I call this level "Higher" in my assessments below). This nicely fills in a gap that I felt was missing in the original prototype.

As before, press and hold the switch to cycle through all the modes in sequence: Moonlight > Lo > Med > Hi > Higher (i.e., there are now 5 regular levels, up from 4 previously). Release the switch to select the desired level. Note that that you can now restart the level ramp at any time (previously, you could only activate it once while the light was on). But as before, Turbo is not available on the regular mode sequence.

As before, double-click from On to access Turbo. Double-click again for strobe. Another double-click brings you to SOS (new on the second prototype). Note there is no mode memory for Turbo or the strobe modes.

There is now a lock-out mode, accessed by a rapid triple-click of the switch from off. The two MT-G2 emitters will flash twice to indicate the lock-out is engaged. Another triple-click re-activates. 

Also new on this sample is a standby indicator that flashes when the batteries are connect but the light is not on. A brief green flash of the switch occurs every four seconds.

As before, the switch "N" logo lights up green when in use. The N changes to red as the cells near exhaustion – this is a warning to switch down to a lower level, as the light will shut-off automatically soon (due to an internal shut-down feature in the circuit). I provide details on this in my testing below. You can re-activate after the light shuts down, by pulling one of the cells out and re-installing.

*Video*: 

For more information on the overall build and user interface, please see my video overview:



Video was recorded in 720p, but YouTube typically defaults to 360p. Once the video is running, you can click on the configuration settings icon and select the higher 480p to 720p options. You can also run full-screen. 

Please make sure you watch on a device that supports annotations (and have then turned on). This is one video where I had to update the UI description after the fact – I erroneously refer to the new "Higher" mode as "Turbo" in a few places in the video. Please see the annotations in the video, or refer back to the description above – thanks! :wave:

*PWM/Strobe*

As before, there is no sign of PWM that I can see, at any output level – I believe the MiniMax is current-controlled. 

However, I did detect high frequency noise with my oscilloscope on some modes (Lo through Higher – but not Moonlight or Turbo) – consistent with the earlier prototype.

Noise:





The frequency was extremely high – about 21kHz (up from 14 kHz on the first prototype sample). Either way, neither of these signals are visible to the eye in actual use. Rest assured, the light is fully flicker-free in all modes. :wave:

Strobe:





The strobe mode was a fairly typical 10Hz fast strobe.

SOS:





Again, a fairly typical SOS mode has been added.

*Standby Drain*

A standby current drain is inevitable on this light, due to the electronic switch. Despite how the carrier looks, the batteries are actually all in series, as before (i.e. 4s1p arrangement).

I have measured the current on the second prototype as 630uA initially, but it rapidly drops down over 30 secs or so to settle at 520uA. This is slightly higher than the stable 405uA of the first prototype, but still fairly low (i.e., would still take over 8 months to drain 3100mAh 18650s). 

However, the new standby indicator on the second prototype now flashes once every four seconds, causing a jump in current to 2.63mA when it is lit. If we use ~1mA as a rough average current (i.e., averaging the current over 4 secs), that would give you a little over 4 months before 3100mAh cells would be exhausted.

As before, there is no physical lock-out available (i.e., you would need to pull one of the cells). But Niwalker has added an electronic lock-out mode (triple-click the switch from off). :thumbsup:

I have measured the current in lock-out mode, and it is no lower than the stable standby drain (i.e., 520uA). However, the standby indicator no longer flashes, and the light cannot be activated accidentally. So, in this lock-out mode, except a little over 8 months before 3100mAh cells would be fully drained.

*Beamshots:*

And now, what you have all been waiting for.  All lights are on their standard battery, or AW protected 18650 2200mAh for the multi-18650 lights. Lights are about ~0.75 meter from a white wall (with the camera ~1.25 meters back from the wall). 

Automatic white balance is used on most of my wall beamshots (to minimize tint differences), but in this case I went with a Daylight WB on my Canon for the MiniMax prototypes.

Note the original prototype is simply labelled "Prototype" below. The new second generation prototype is labelled "#2 Proto".





























































_Note: No matter what white balance I use, these comparisons will never be entirely accurate for tint. In real life, I find my MT-G2 lights all to be relatively neutral white, without a huge difference between them._

As before, the MiniMax has an unbelievable amount of output on Turbo. Hard to directly compare, but my ceiling bounce results tell me that the second prototype is slightly brighter than the first. Scroll down for my detailed tables and assessments.

But first, here are some indoor shots in a basement, to allow you to better compare. For your reference, the back of the couch is about 7 feet away (~2.3m) from the opening of the light, and the far wall is about 18 feet away (~5.9m). Below I am showing a couple of exposures, to allow you to better compare hotspot and spill. And again, the camera is set to a Daylight white balance for all lights below.
















Again, these are all done with a Daylight white balance, in better show tint differences. But a single white balance will never capture the true difference between lights – in practice, the X6 is not that cool, and the Minimaxes are not that warm. :shrug:

As with the white wall beamshots, the second MiniMax prototype seems to be slightly more "throwy" than the first – but it's not really noticeable in real life, even with the lights side by side. Rest assured, this is still a pure flood light. Scroll down for actual output and throw measures.

Outdoor beamshots aren't possible right now, given the several feet of snow on the ground around here. :shakehead But for your reference, here are the outdoor beamshots taken from my original prototype review. As always, these are done in the style of my earlier 100-yard round-up review. Please see that thread for a discussion of the topography (i.e. the road dips in the distance, to better show you the corona in the mid-ground). 










Given that this location was picked to illustrate relative throw (which the MiniMax is not designed for), it doesn't really capture the overall brightness of this light very well – recommend you stick with the indoor basement shots for now. 

That said, you can get a few hints of its relative brightness if you examine the far right end of the zoomed-out shots above (i.e., the tree line in the distance on the right). Depending on your monitor calibration, you may be able to faintly make the trees there (which are more than 100 yards away). You'll note how much hard it is to see these on the comparator SX25L3 or X6. 

*Testing Method:* 

All my output numbers are relative for my home-made light box setup, as described on my flashlightreviews.ca website. You can directly compare all my relative output values from different reviews - i.e. an output value of "10" in one graph is the same as "10" in another. All runtimes are done under a cooling fan, except for any extended run Lo/Min modes (i.e. >12 hours) which are done without cooling.

I have devised a method for converting my lightbox relative output values (ROV) to estimated Lumens. See my How to convert Selfbuilt's Lightbox values to Lumens thread for more info. 

*Throw/Output Summary Chart:*

My summary tables are reported in a manner consistent with the ANSI FL-1 standard for flashlight testing. Please see http://www.flashlightreviews.ca/FL1.htm for a discussion, and a description of all the terms used in these tables. Effective July 2012, I have updated all my Peak Intensity/Beam Distance measures with a NIST-certified Extech EA31 lightmeter (orange highlights).






Since my high-output lights don't fit in my lightbox, I am really relying on my ceiling bounce measures here. The second MiniMax prototype manages to squeeze out a few more lumens than my original sample – a very impressive ~5500 lumens in my testing :bow:

Throw remains definitely pretty minimal, given the overall output of the MiniMax. As always, the MT-G2 produces a very smooth beam profile. 

Let's see how the rest of the output levels compare, between the two prototypes:






Again, take these with a bit grain salt, given my limited ability to measure output on these lights. But it gives you a general idea of spacing. As you can see, Niwalker added a fifth regular mode (which I am calling "Higher" above). This is the intermediate output level I recommended on my initial prototype review. :wave:

*Output/Runtime Graphs:*

Another change according to Niwalker is the use of thermal step-down now on Turbo, instead of a timed one. Let's see what the difference is like, with and without cooling (on my standard relative output scale):






First off, I'm happy to report that the light steps down to the new "Higher" output level of ~2000 lumens. 

But in terms of step-down timing, not much has practically changed. With fan cooling, the second prototype stepped-down after 4 mins runtime (just as the first prototype did on its timed step down). Without cooling however, the second prototype stepped-down slightly faster (3.5 mins in my testing). End of the day, this doesn't really translate into much of a runtime difference – although I agree that a thermal step-down is a safer design than a timed one, for super-high output lights like these.

So let's see how it compares to the first prototype, and others in this 3x/4x18650 battery class (again in my standard relative output scale):






_*UPDATE May 18, 2014:* I believe there was an output reporting issue with the "Higher" mode test on my second prototype sample shown above. Please see my final shipping review of this light for updated runtimes._

I realize this graph may be a bit hard to decipher – the brown line that ends around 130 mins is the max Turbo mode of the second prototype, and the new "higher" output level is the brown line that terminates around 340 mins (off-scale).

As you can see, you get a lot more runtime from "Higher" mode than the Turbo mode (i.e., those ~4 mins at ~5500 lumens really drains off a lot of battery capacity). But I'm quite surprised by the relative efficiency of the new prototype compared to the initial one (i.e., compare to the Hi mode of first prototype).

Let's see if that continues at the lower levels:






And indeed it does – the revised prototype runs twice as long as the original prototype on "Hi" level, and several times longer on the "Med" level. oo: Niwalker has clearly done something to boost the efficiency of the circuit, or is using higher output bins emitters (or both) on this second sample.

I am frankly surprised to see how efficient the second prototype is, compared to other lights in this battery class. This is making me think my lumen estimates may be a bit high for this light … it is hard to accurately compare lights with such widely different beam patterns. :thinking:

I realize people may find it hard to relate to my relative output scale (which is based on the numbers coming out of my lightbox. Here is a re-plot of the max levels of the MiniMax in my estimated lumen scale:






_*UPDATE May 18, 2014:* Again, I believe there was an output reporting issue with the "Higher" mode test on my second prototype sample shown above. Please see my final shipping review of this light for updated runtimes._

For those of you wondering what repeated re-starting of the light in Turbo mode would like, I have done the experiement below. *Note that I actually let the light cool for ~10 mins between each re-start.* I am only ploting the time the light was actually on below, so that you can match up the time scale.






As you can see, the output keeps dropping over time, on successive re-starts. For example, after 30 mins,you are down to ~4000 estimated lumens, compared to ~5500 estimated lumens at the start. You also hit ~2000 lumens just before the light shuts-down completely, after ~50 mins. Sorry I can't be more accurate for time, as I accidentally let the light step-down for several minutes before one of the re-starts.

I've done some detailed testing of the light once the switch indicator changes from solid green to solid red. 

When the indicator first goes red at the "Higher" level, I measured an immediate resting voltage of the cells as ~3.46V on average. Re-installing the cells and switching down to the Hi level, I got another *8 mins* of runtime before the indicator went red again. At this point, the initial resting voltage was ~3.40V on average.

I then ran the light on the Med level on these same cells. After *10 mins* more at this Med level, the indicator went red again. I measured the initial resting voltage as ~3.36V on average at this point. I next ran these cells in the light on the Lo level. After another *50 mins *at this level, the indicator went red again, with an initial initial resting voltage as ~3.30V on average.

In my view, this is MORE than sufficient warning to switch down to a lower level. I am sure the light would have run for a quite long time further on Moonlight, but was not prepared to wait and watch.  

Note as well that even if the light does shut-down on you (and won't reactivate), just give the cells a couple of minutes to recover. All cells bounce back somewhat from their discharged voltage on their own. Once the voltage recovers enough for you to re-active, there is no restriction on what output level you can select (i.e., all modes are available). But keep in mind that you likely don't have much runtime left at the higher levels, if the light has already shut-off once.

*Potential Issues and Updates from the First Prototype*

I made a number of specific recommendations in my review of the first Prototype. Let's see how Niwalker responded to these, and then look at what else has changed.


_*Selfbuilt recommendation #1:* Need a higher "Hi" level, between the original ~870 lumen Hi and ~5200 lumen Turbo (preferably in the 1500-2000 lumen range), and use this for the step-down from Turbo._
:thumbsup: Check. Niwalker has added a fifth level to the regular sequence, of ~2000 estimated lumens in my testing. Turbo mode now steps-down to this higher Hi level.

_*Selfbuilt recommendation #2:* Allow the mode selection ramp to be re-started at any time, with mode memory upon re-activation._
:thumbsup: Check. You can now access the ramp repeatedly, and it recalls the last setting when turning off/on. Note that it still starts at the Moonlight level and ramps up. 

_*Selfbuilt Recommendation #3:* Allow access to max output from Off._
:shrug: Sorry, still not available. Turbo level is still not available as part of the main memorized sequence, so you have to turn the light on first and then double-click for Turbo. You can do this pretty quickly though (i.e., single click, followed by a double-click). You just need a slight pause after the first click, or you risk activating the triple-click lock-out mode.

_*Selfbuilt Recommendation #4:* Add an electronic lock-out mode to prevent accidental activation._
:thumbsup: Check. Note the standby current is not altered when in lock-out mode (but I previously indicated that I thought the standby current was reasonable)

_*Selfbuilt Recommendation #5:* Add a standby/locator flash to the switch_
:thumbsup: Check. The electronic button now flashes once every 4 secs when in standby. This can be turned off by entering the lock-out mode.

_*Selfbuilt Recommendation #6:* External build issues: the switch is hard to find by touch alone, the tripod mount should be moved opposite to the switch, and some sort of lanyard/carry device should be added._
:twothumbs Check, check and check. The switch now has a metal finish (making it easier to see), with a raised rubberized logo (making it easier to find by touch). The tripod mount has been moved directly opposite. A removable handle (held by screws) has been added, with a split-ring and wrist lanyard attachment on the opposite side. The handle also helps you locate the switch easier (i.e., located right at the head).

_*Selfbuilt Recommendation #7:* This wasn't an official recommendation, but I did note in my internal build overview that the integrated carrier was very tight for 18650 cell length, and had exposed contacts on the end plate._
:thumbsup: Check. Niwalker has extended the length of the carrier slightly (although longer cells are still a relatively tight fit). There is also an additional piece of plastic protecting the end plate of the carrier.
What else has changed? Well, Niwalker has made a few other enhancements, based on member feedback here:

_*Step-down:*_ The second prototype now uses a thermal step-down feature, instead of the original timed step-down. This was highlighted by several members here. However, as my testing shows, it doesn't make a practical difference – in typical usage, the new thermal step down will occur around the same time as the previous timed version.

_*Strobe modes:*_ A SOS mode has now been added to the blinking modes, after Strobe.

_*Styling:*_ It's a minor point, but the styling of the battery cover/handle has changed. A pretty neutral change in my view. I suggest you scroll back up to my build overview section, for additional commentary of changes over time.

_*Efficiency:*_ Something unexpected was the greatly increased efficiency on the regular, non-Turbo mode. oo: Check out my runtimes above, but the new prototype appears to be quite a bit more efficient than the previous sample (still with a largely direct-drive-like pattern). I have confirmed with Niwalker that their engineer has continued to revise and tweak the circuit (the second prototype I tested is apparently the 6th iteration he developed).

*Other Potential Issues*

New issues with the second prototype are fairly limited. One issue is that the new handle is located pretty close to the body – so unless you have very small fingers, you won't be able to grip it by the handle proper.

After twenty or so battery changes, I started to notice intermittent battery contact issues. This was caused by the loosening of the screws holding down the tailplate. Note that the carrier struts are required to carry current (given the 4s1p arrangement), so tension on the tailplate is important. As such, you may need to check and carefully re-tighten the exposed screws from time to time.

*Preliminary Observations*

Niwalker advises this isn't the final shipping version of the MiniMax – but it is close. You should take this analysis as a near-final overview.

If you have jumped right to the end of this rather long review, I suggest you start with my summary of the build changes above, and then go back into the data/testing results sections if you want more info.

As always, I am impressed with the responsiveness of Niwalker to incorporate design feedback. Pretty much all of my suggestions were taken into account with this updated build – as well as some of the key points raised by members here.

That said, it's important to realize that this is not a blank check – Niwalker has worked to revise the existing build, not replace it. This is still a massive flood light, just with improved build, user interface and mode spacing (not to mention efficiency). 

I am looking forward to seeing the final shipping version, which should be pretty close to this revised prototype. :wave:

_*UPDATE FEBRUARY 13, 2014: *Niwalker has informed me of what plan to update for the final shipping version - see the list below. I must say, all sounds good from my perspective. :wave:

Final version changes, according to Niwalker:

The lowest output will be lower, at least half as bright as it is right now.
Momentary Turbo (5233 lumens) when in stand by.
Double click for instant strobe when in stand by.
A beacon mode after SOS (2000 lumens every 2 seconds)
2000 lumens SOS, instead of 5233 lumens
Change the way to mount the handle and raise the handle (there won't be two empty space when handle is not installed)
_*
UPDATE May 18, 2014: The final shipping version of this light has now been reviewed. Please continue all discussion of this model in that thread, thanks!*

----

MiniMax prototypes were provided by Niwalker for review.


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## RedForest UK (Feb 11, 2014)

This is turning out to look a pretty awesome light. :twothumbs

I've been really impressed by their responsiveness to feedback, I even mentioned to them via email that I thought it would make more sense to have the refector cups aligned horizontally rather than vertically to move the slight extra spread of light from the overlap sideways when held underhand. It looks like they even took that on board and they're showing a real attention to detail and desire to get it completely right upon release. In fact I would say more so than any other manufacturer that I can remember, although of course I don't know what feedback other companies consider behind the scenes.

What has me particularly impressed is the massive increase in efficiency on the regular modes, this means that its not just a show off max power/size ratio light, but coupled with the high CRI tint, wide beam pattern and very high battery capacity for its size, makes it a really useful all round lighting tool with the best efficiency in its class. I haven't been so impressed with a runtime graph since your first review of the SC51, which I remember had a similar efficiency lead over its single AA rivals at the time. This looks to be turning out to be a seriously good job on Niwalker's part and I'm really looking forward to seeing the final version and feedback upon release.


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## Ryp (Feb 11, 2014)

Thanks for the review!

Your "From left to right" lists different lights than the ones pictured.


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## ven (Feb 11, 2014)

Awesome review as usual selfbuilt:thumbsup: ,not sure on the handle so that would be removed(bit like having a handle on the side of a can on coke)...........just no need imo unless heat becomes an issue...........

Love the flood,think a great camping light for around a tent in the outdoors,be a very useful light as i find flood more useful than 1000m of throw personally.

Their work on getting back to your input/suggestions deserves nothing but top credit,absolutely fantastic stuff!!!! Other companies should take a leaf out of their book!!!

But being honest i am sort of reserved a little,i like it but dont know if i love it or would get to love it.Because of this reason the cost will have a factor on me buying it being open.
It does have a short run time on max,although your suggestion of 2000lm i am sure will be more than adequate........

Just not sure,if under $150 (closer to $100)then a possibility i would buy it for camping,if over $200 then its highly unlikely i would not invest,even though nothing on the market compares............that just me though:thinking: however i may change my views over time.

Thank you for time and effort:twothumbs


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## gkbain (Feb 11, 2014)

Once again an outstanding review. I am glad this light is not available for purchase.


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## RedForest UK (Feb 11, 2014)

What gets me is the 'higher' mode, if I'm reading the graph correctly it shows 2000 dropping slowly to 1500 for 5 hours on 4x 2200mah 18650s. That's equivalent to 1700+ lumens average for 1hr 15 minutes on a single 2200mah 18650, which would suggest 1700+ for nearly 2 hours on a 3400mah NCR18650b. 

That's more than double the typical performance of a single 18650 XM-L/XM-L2 light.


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## selfbuilt (Feb 11, 2014)

Ryp said:


> Your "From left to right" lists different lights than the ones pictured.


Sorry about that - fixed.



ven said:


> Their work on getting back to your input/suggestions deserves nothing but top credit,absolutely fantastic stuff!!!! Other companies should take a leaf out of their book!!!


Yes, I am also quite impressed with how responsive Niwalker has been - not only on this light, but on other series that I have tested repeatedly for them during development.



gkbain said:


> Once again an outstanding review. I am glad this light is not available for purchase.


:laughing:



RedForest UK said:


> I've been really impressed by their responsiveness to feedback, I even mentioned to them via email that I thought it would make more sense to have the refector cups aligned horizontally rather than vertically to move the slight extra spread of light from the overlap sideways when held underhand. It looks like they even took that on board and they're showing a real attention to detail and desire to get it completely right upon release. In fact I would say more so than any other manufacturer that I can remember, although of course I don't know what feedback other companies consider behind the scenes.


Ah yes, I forgot to mention this in the review - the reflector cups have been rotated 90-degrees (relative to the button) from the first prototype to the second. This does make more intuitive sense, given how people carry lights with the button straight up.



RedForest UK said:


> What gets me is the 'higher' mode, if I'm reading the graph correctly it shows 2000 dropping slowly to 1500 for 5 hours on 4x 2200mah 18650s. That's equivalent to 1700+ lumens average for 1hr 15 minutes on a single 2200mah 18650, which would suggest 1700+ for nearly 2 hours on a 3400mah NCR18650b. That's more than double the typical performance of a single 18650 XM-L/XM-L2 light.


Yes, I must say I was surprised by this result as well. It is a remarkably good showing on the Med/Hi/Higher settings. In addition to the circuit updates, I'm thinking these are probably top-line output bins on this sample as well.

Also, I should mention that my runtime data is collected in a lightbox that isn't fully calibrated for most of the high-output lights. I am pretty confident about my ANSI FL-1 lumen estimates for this light (at least in terms of how they compare in relative terms to other lights I've tested - keep in mind my estimates are all relative). But because the light doesn't physicially fit fully inside my lightbox, the "decay pattern" over time may not be entirely accurate.

For a typical small light that fits inside my lightbox, I know this calibration is consistent across the whole run. But for larger high-output lights that don't fit, it's possible that the relative values are not entirely consistent from each other (due to an inconsistent amount of partial light making it in, depending the reflector design). I could only test this by stopping the runs at a certain points and immediately re-doing the ceiling bounces for each light (but that would interupt the runtimes). I haven't done that to date, because most of them seem to match about what you expect. But it's always possible that this light (with it's very distinctive floody beam) is not entirely consistent with most of the other over-sized lights I've tested.

In any case, I expect the above would only be a minor contribution to any discrepancy.


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## RedForest UK (Feb 11, 2014)

selfbuilt said:


> But for larger high-output lights that don't fit, it's possible that the relative values are not entirely consistent from each other (due to an inconsistent amount of partial light making it in, depending the reflector design).



That's an interesting idea. I can understand how this could lead to inconsistencies between lights with different beam profiles, but surely the same light over time maintains the same beam profile (and therefore % of beam getting inside the box) and so the runtime graph should be correct at least in terms of proportional output from start to finish?

Also, I would expect a floodier light would mean less getting into the box if the head isn't fully inside, so shouldn't that disadvantage the MM15 rather than the opposite? But maybe I'm imagining the set-up wrong.


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## Mr. Tone (Feb 11, 2014)

First off, another great and valuable review! Second, it is truly nice to see a company take the time and expense to send samples out for feedback BEFORE mass production. They are doing themselves and consumers a great favor by having these beta model reviews. The changes they made prove that they were listening to what you and potential consumers had to say. Yes, that thing is tiny and it's cool to get that kind of output from something so compact.


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## selfbuilt (Feb 11, 2014)

RedForest UK said:


> That's an interesting idea. I can understand how this could lead to inconsistencies between lights with different beam profiles, but surely the same light over time maintains the same beam profile (and therefore % of beam getting inside the box) and so the runtime graph should be correct at least in terms of proportional output from start to finish?


In general terms yes ... but since the calibration is based on a non-linear power conversion of output measures from inside the lightbox, I can't be completely sure it applies equally to all lights partially outside. But it's something of an esoteric point - it really shouldn't make much of a difference since the initial point is calibrated, and the light doesn't move during testing. I was just musing out-loud.  End of the day, the runtimes should be a pretty good representation of what is going on over time.


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## weekend warrior (Feb 11, 2014)

selfbuilt said:


>



That is adorable.


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## hikingman (Feb 11, 2014)

It is interesting how part of the handle nearest the switch and 2 holding screws appears flush against the body of the light. Is that to "collect" heat and use handle as a heat sink? If not, it would seem to me possible to place some spacers where the screws go in, with handle attaching above the spacers. This would give more clearance for larger hands.

Dave


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## selfbuilt (Feb 12, 2014)

hikingman said:


> It is interesting how part of the handle nearest the switch and 2 holding screws appears flush against the body of the light. Is that to "collect" heat and use handle as a heat sink? If not, it would seem to me possible to place some spacers where the screws go in, with handle attaching above the spacers. This would give more clearance for larger hands.


The handle attachment is flush with the head, so it would stick out if you added a spacer. I haven't checked the length tolerances of the screws, so not sure how much play you would have here. Simplest thing would be for Niwalker to build in the extra clearance.


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## plata0190 (Feb 12, 2014)

Screws have to fit fully into because impermeability, is right? Or their holes are sealed at the end?


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## Mr. Tone (Feb 12, 2014)

weekend warrior said:


> That is adorable.



Yes! I like that little handle.


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## plata0190 (Feb 12, 2014)

mee too


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## RedForest UK (Feb 12, 2014)

selfbuilt said:


> Simplest thing would be for Niwalker to build in the extra clearance.



According to a review on a German forum they have already committed to building in that extra clearance for the final production model :thumbsup:


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## selfbuilt (Feb 12, 2014)

RedForest UK said:


> According to a review on a German forum they have already committed to building in that extra clearance for the final production model :thumbsup:


That's good to hear. I've also heard from another member on that forum that apparently beacon mode will be added to the final shipping version.

I've asked Niwalker for confirmation of these changes (plus whatever else might be in the works). I will let you know when I hear back.


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## plata0190 (Feb 12, 2014)

Yes beacon mode is confirmed me by Niwalker.
@selfbuilt: these ptotoypes versions are yours or you've to return them back to the manufacturer?


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## selfbuilt (Feb 13, 2014)

Ok, so I've heard back from Niwalker. Below is the summary of what they plan to change for the final shipping version. I must say, all sounds good from my perspective. :wave:

Final version changes:

The lowest output will be lower, at least half as bright as it is right now.
Momentary Turbo (5233 lumens) when in stand by.
Double click for instant strobe when in stand by.
A beacon mode after SOS (2000 lumens every 2 seconds)
2000 lumens SOS, instead of 5233 lumens
Change the way to mount the handle and raise the handle (there won't be two empty space when handle is not installed)


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## plata0190 (Feb 13, 2014)

They downgraded from 5500 to 5233 lumens or you just called it by the spec?
Then I don't understand why SOS and BEACON are not programmed in max outpu mode, where all other flahslights uses it in this mode, for a simply reason: SOS mode at least is an emergency modality and the flashlight have to use it in the maximum outpu available because you have to be reached and viewed from a long distance. Reflector and LEDs are not able to illuminate in a long throw, but this can be enphatized if the output of these modalities is maximized.

There would not be temperature problems, and if in the case they still be, wouldn't be problems, because the sensor would step the mode down. What do you think?

Other changes seems to be good.


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## plata0190 (Feb 13, 2014)

I don't understand why deisigning it with an handle when the output from turbo steps to 2000 lm after only 3.5 mins. In this case the body won't be very hot and the handle is pointless. For example Betty TL2S has similar dimensions and about 6 XM-L2 (4500 lm) but steps down further


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## zs&tas (Feb 13, 2014)

plata0190 said:


> They downgraded from 5500 to 5233 lumens or you just called it by the spec?
> Then I don't understand why SOS and BEACON are not programmed in max outpu mode, where all other flahslights uses it in this mode, for a simply reason: SOS mode at least is an emergency modality and the flashlight have to use it in the maximum outpu available because you have to be reached and viewed from a long distance. Reflector and LEDs are not able to illuminate in a long throw, but this can be enphatized if the output of these modalities is maximized.
> 
> There would not be temperature problems, and if in the case they still be, wouldn't be problems, because the sensor would step the mode down. What do you think?
> ...



i dont think i would be able to tell the difference 2 miles away from you if it was 5k or 2k lumens from a visibility point of view, however choosing 2k for these modes greatly increases your emergency runtime which is very important !


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## zs&tas (Feb 13, 2014)

this looks to be one awsome flashlight, good UI with all the modes, really massive brightness, really compact usable design. cant see theres much more anybody could want ? 
it makes the upcoming olight SRmini a bit hmmmm pathetic ?


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## Saquavin (Feb 13, 2014)

Thanks for awesome review !
Any idea for the price ?


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## selfbuilt (Feb 13, 2014)

plata0190 said:


> I don't understand why deisigning it with an handle when the output from turbo steps to 2000 lm after only 3.5 mins. In this case the body won't be very hot and the handle is pointless.


No, the handle is a good idea - the light is very hot by 3.5 mins, especially around the head. Even after the step down, you would not find it comfortable for bare hand holding without one.

As for the flashing modes, I think 2000 lumens is fine - a good trade-off in runtime and output (especially for beacon).

And yes, that was a direct quote from Niwalker, hence their official output spec.


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## plata0190 (Feb 14, 2014)

I don't think SOS mdoe drops down battery very quickly like a continuous output. Certainly at 2k will last more than a 5k lm, but the most important factor here is not the duration but the visiboiliy at long distances IMHO


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## RedForest UK (Feb 14, 2014)

plata0190 said:


> ..but the most important factor here is not the duration but the visiboiliy at long distances IMHO



I'd say it was both, of course at a long distance 5k lumens will be much more visible than 2k, but if you look at the runtime charts it's clear that running at 2k is much more efficient than running at 5k. If you could pick for example 10hrs worth of 5k SOS runtime or 40hrs of 2k then I would certainly go for the 2k for much longer.


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## plata0190 (Feb 14, 2014)

Is known how much time a full battery will last in 5k and 2k? Hope Niwalker fix drain battery in standby: it gets down about 25% after only 2 months


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## RedForest UK (Feb 14, 2014)

Well on the 2000-1500 lumen higher mode it does 5hrs 20, and after 5 mins 5000 lumen it then only has enough power left for 2hrs 15 of the same. That suggests that somehow 5 minutes of 5000 lumens equals 3 hours of 2000-1500. That is only 1/36th of the runtime, for 3 times the power, suggesting that the 2k lumen mode is 12 times more efficient than the 5k lumen mode if I have my numbers right. You could then work out runtimes in SOS mode by looking at the proportion of the sequence spent in the ON state.

However that result does seem a bit extreme... I'd be very interested to see how long a single charge will allow it to run in purely the 5000 lumen mode, by simply turning off, leaving to cool a little if necessary and bumping back up to 5000 lumens again until stepdown and adding the total time before the batteries run flat.


I do also have a couple of other questions:

Firstly, is there any sort of low-voltage protection built into the light, or does the cut-off in the runtime charts represent the cells' own protection circuits tripping?

Secondly, is there any way within the current UI of dropping back to the previously used regular mode from the turbo mode without switching the light off and back on again or cycling up from low with a long press?


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## selfbuilt (Feb 15, 2014)

RedForest UK said:


> However that result does seem a bit extreme... I'd be very interested to see how long a single charge will allow it to run in purely the 5000 lumen mode, by simply turning off, leaving to cool a little if necessary and bumping back up to 5000 lumens again until stepdown and adding the total time before the batteries run flat.


I agree, the increased efficiency of the ~1500-2000 lumen mode (and the lower modes) is suprising. I may try to do the repeated ~5000-5500 turbo restarts, but this is likely to be hard on the cells (i.e., would be better suited to IMR - and I don't have that many IMRs lying around).



> Firstly, is there any sort of low-voltage protection built into the light, or does the cut-off in the runtime charts represent the cells' own protection circuits tripping?


Hard to say for sure, without using unprotected cells (which again, I don't have enough of). My impression is that the Minimax circuit does have internal protection, based on the wording Niwalker has used with me. I will need to check with them to confirm though. 

FYI for my runtimes graphs, a drop to zero output (i.e., a line down at the end) indicates the light shut-off on its own. If the line simply trails off, that indicates I manually stopped the run. In this case, the light does shut off - but it's hard to know if the battery or light circuit is the source. I suspect it is the light, since the terminations seem earlier than typical for battery protection circuit cut-off, but I can't tell for certain without unprotected cells.



> Secondly, is there any way within the current UI of dropping back to the previously used regular mode from the turbo mode without switching the light off and back on again or cycling up from low with a long press?


Yes - but you need to double-click cycle through the strobe modes to get back to it. If you do, that will return you to whatever mode you were in before accessing Turbo. I don't know how it will be in the revised final interface.


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## plata0190 (Feb 15, 2014)

@ RedForest: nice questions. I believe you, but is very strange that in 5k after 4 mins, battery drain is so huge. :huh:
@ selfbuilt: about the first question of RedForest, i would to know if when the battery is low, does LEDs keep working or the MM15 locks and still off with no possibility to return it on not even in low mode, until you replce with charged batts?

And let me know circa at which % does the power indicator turns red?


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## selfbuilt (Feb 15, 2014)

plata0190 said:


> @ RedForest: nice questions. I believe you, but is very strange that in 5k after 4 mins, battery drain is so huge. :huh:


RedForest is correct - my runtimes show the Turbo has reduced efficiency after it steps down. I don't know why - I will re-do that runtime, in case there was some issue with one of the cells. I will also try a re-started run, to see how that compares.

_EDIT: I've done the Turbo more runtime 3 times now, and all of them are identical to each other within a couple of mins of total runtime._



> @ selfbuilt: about the first question of RedForest, i would to know if when the battery is low, does LEDs keep working or the MM15 locks and still off with no possibility to return it on not even in low mode, until you replce with charged batts?
> And let me know circa at which % does the power indicator turns red?


I don't know at what time exactly the red indicator comes on - I am not continuously watching the runs. All I know is that the indicator is red when the batteries are almost exhausted. Once the light has shut-down, it will not re-activate in any mode until the cells are re-charged. I don't know if there are any restrictions on re-activating after the indicator has gone red, but before shut-down.


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## plata0190 (Feb 15, 2014)

The fact that MM15 shutsdown and that the user can't keep use it when discarched is bad. Nitecore TM26, Ferei BL09 etc doesn't limit the usage when batts drained but keeping the flashlight running on even. Imho the protect circuit built into the flashlight is pointless because at today day all batteries have a dedicated circuit that cuts battery drain at a lower voltage point. I remember Wiseled did that and found this very unhandy. If you are out for a walk or camping and have drained your batts, always a little bit of light would come be useful


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## selfbuilt (Feb 16, 2014)

RedForest UK said:


> I'd be very interested to see how long a single charge will allow it to run in purely the 5000 lumen mode, by simply turning off, leaving to cool a little if necessary and bumping back up to 5000 lumens again until stepdown and adding the total time before the batteries run flat.


Ok, and here we go. On the run below, I re-started the light every 3 mins or so.

*Note that I actually let the light cool for ~10 mins between each re-start.* I am only ploting the time the light was actually on below, so that you can match up the time scale.







As you can see, the output keeps dropping over time, on successive re-starts. For example, after 30 mins continuous runtime,you are down to ~4000 estimated lumens on re-activation, compared to ~5500 estimated lumens at the start. You also hit ~2000 lumens just before the light shuts-down completely, after ~50 mins. Sorry I can't be more accurate for time, as I accidentally let the light step-down for several minutes before one of the re-starts.


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## plata0190 (Feb 16, 2014)

Why it drops down progressively? the first version didn't


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## selfbuilt (Feb 16, 2014)

plata0190 said:


> Why it drops down progressively? the first version didn't


I'm sure it does. This is exactly what you would expect on a light with a direct-drive like runtime pattern (i.e., when re-activating, the output will be lower, commensurate with the reduced voltage of the partially depleted cells)


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## RedForest UK (Feb 16, 2014)

Thanks for testing that selfbuilt. As always you're committed to making your reviews comprehensive, which is what makes them so greatly and widely appreciated :thumbsup: 

50 minutes from 5200 to around 3500 isn't bad at all imo, but it makes you question how the runtime on the 2000 lumen mode is cut in half by just the first 5 minute burst if it can go for 10x that runtime before dropping below 50% output.


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## CUL8R (Feb 16, 2014)

selfbuilt,
As always a great review! Thank you. Sort of boggles my mind seeing how each new generation of lights gets superior lumen output on less power than the preceeding gen! For instance, this light finally gets down to the max output of my all-time favorite light (3800 Lumen TM26) after running for over 30 minutes. I know its not 30 continuous minutes of runtime, but still....! And on turbo its initial output is at least 32% greater than the TM26. I still love my TM26, but unless the final version of this light is drastically altered for the worse, I kinda think I'm going to need one. Darn necessities! Between 4-wheeling with my jeep (Just Empty Every Pocket for continuous mods), and "needing" all these new lights for, hmm, experimental purposes, I'm going to need a new source of funds soon!


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## plata0190 (Feb 17, 2014)

very nice selfbuilt. @redforest: 50 mins from 5,5k to 3,5k are tested with 2200 mah (if I remember correctly). That sounds that with3400 mah batteries, a full charge have to last plus the half: circa 1 hour and 20 mins 
The only thing that's wrong on this flashlight imho, is that when discharged he internally protection circuit shutsdown with not possibility to use it at least in moonlight mode fwhen needed.


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## selfbuilt (Feb 17, 2014)

plata0190 said:


> The only thing that's wrong on this flashlight imho, is that when discharged he internally protection circuit shutsdown with not possibility to use it at least in moonlight mode fwhen needed.


No, that's not really it. The indicator turns red _before_ the light shuts-off. This gives you plenty of advance warning to switch down to a lower mode (I just don't know exactly how much warning, since I haven't measured it). Once the light shuts down, the batteries are truly at the point where they should not be activated (i.e., I've measured resting voltages as low as ~2.7V on some cells immediately after shut-down). It thus makes perfect sense that the light won't re-activate at these voltages. 

What I don't know - because I don't ever test for this - is at what resting cell voltage a light will not activate. I only know for certain this light won't re-activate after a shut-down occurs, which is entirely consistent with other lights.


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## plata0190 (Feb 17, 2014)

Ah ok, if yours cells measured 2.7V when MM15 has shutted down, means that they are fully drained. But maybe the voltage will be higher o 3400 mah? I know that on TM26 when the light come very low, the voltage still be at 3.00V.

I suggest you a thing about the LED indicator to ask Niwalker engineers: what about upgrading it (like Nitecore TM11 and TM15) where the battery condition is indicator is more accurate, for example:
- constant green: 100-50%
- flashing green: less than 50%
- constant red : less than 30%
- slow flashing red  or 2 flashes: less than 15%
- fast flashing red: 5% remaining


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## selfbuilt (Feb 17, 2014)

RedForest UK said:


> Thanks for testing that selfbuilt. As always you're committed to making your reviews comprehensive, which is what makes them so greatly and widely appreciated :thumbsup:


Looks like I wasn't done yet .... I've gone and measured the behaviour of the light once the switch changes from solid green to solid red. :sweat:

Starting with cells with an average resting voltage of ~3.55V (=/- 0.05V per cell), I ran the light on the "Higher" level for a few mins, until the red switch indicator came on. At this point, I immediately turned the light off and measured the resting voltage of the cells, which were ~3.46V on average (with the lowest cell reading ~3.42V). Keep in mind, the cells are all in series on the Minimax. Also keep in mind that I am reporting resting voltages, after the cells have been pulled (i.e., I am not measuring under load). 

I re-installed the cells, and ran the light on the Hi level. The indicator was green initially, as expected. After *8 mins* at this Hi level, the indicator went red. I again pulled all the cells immediately, and measured the initial resting voltage as ~3.40V on average (with the lowest cell reading ~3.25V).

I re-installed the cells again, and ran the light on the Med level (with the indicator green initially). After *10 mins* at this level, the indicator went red. I again pulled all the cells immediately, and measured the initial resting voltage as ~3.36V on average (with the lowest cell reading ~3.15V).

I re-installed the cells again, and ran the light on the Lo level (with the indicator green initially). After *50 mins *at this level, the indicator went red. I again pulled all the cells immediately, and measured the initial resting voltage as ~3.30V on average (with the lowest cell reading ~3.13V).

In my view, this is MORE than sufficient warning to switch down to a lower level. I am sure the light would have run for a quite long time further on Moonlight, but was not prepared to wait and watch.  

Just for kicks, I re-ran the light on Turbo at this point. It shut-off within 4 seconds, and would not reactivate immediately. I pulled the cells, and measured the resting voltage as ~3.29V (lowest cell reading ~3.08V). This is the point at which the light shut-down (well, the resting voltage equivalent at any rate - I don't know what voltage under load it would have been).

I gave the cells a couple of minutes to recover, and could run the light on Turbo for another ~3 seconds, before again experiencing shut-down with no immediate re-activation.

To point to the above is that you need to keep in mind that all cells bounce back from their discharged voltage on their own. As I mentioned earlier, I've measured cells as low as ~2.7V after the light shut-down on Turbo/Higher ... but typically, the cells are ~3.3V by the time I notice the run has stopped and I pop them into the charger. So even if you run the light to the point where it shuts-off, just give it a few mins and try again - it should re-activate. 

Once it does, note that there is no restriction on what output level you can select if the light comes back on (i.e., all modes are available). But keep in mind that you likely don't have much runtime left, if the light has already shut-off once.

And that, I think, brings my circuit testing on this revised prototype to a close. :bow: Let's wait and see what the final version looks like ...


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## plata0190 (Feb 17, 2014)

Thank you selfbuilt, nice test 
Under use cells are always undervolted, when out of running they stabilize at a usual voltage, but i dont' understand in which case you measured 2.70 (when shutted down in low mode, tested immediately after pulled??)
Now finally i know how it works, and the behaviour is not (fortunally) like wiseled, so there is a chanche to reactivate it even if shutted down. Let's keep fingers crossed Niwalker improve or maintain this behaviour. In this case MM15 can run further in moonlight mode even if batts are drained.

PS: what about my suggestion about the indicator? Do you forward this to the manufacturer?


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## selfbuilt (Feb 17, 2014)

plata0190 said:


> PS: what about my suggestion about the indicator? Do you forward this to the manufacturer?


I know the manufacturer monitors this thread, in order to get feedback from members directly.


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## plata0190 (Feb 17, 2014)

yes, i was considering it


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## selfbuilt (Feb 18, 2014)

Niwalker confirms the Minimax does have a built-in circuit to shut down the light, after a good period of red indicator warning (as I have found). You can re-activate after the light shuts down, but you need to pull one of the cells out and re-install.
:wave:


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## DENGOH (Feb 19, 2014)

selfbuilt, thank you so much for the review. Looks like this is going to be my first Niwalker. 
I am wondering what was the temperature on the flashlight body when it decided to step down.


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## plata0190 (Feb 19, 2014)

if drain cells is so high at 5k, secondary modes can also be outputted at more than 2k, for example at 3k or 3.5k.
For all users that uses protected or unprotected 18650s, is more usefull that the integrated MM15 PCB cut the voltage at a lower point like 2.70V instead 3.3/3.3V like now.

In this case 18650 cells will offer you more ruintime and still be proteced by a downvoltage


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## selfbuilt (Feb 19, 2014)

DENGOH said:


> I am wondering what was the temperature on the flashlight body when it decided to step down.


I haven't measured it, but it is pretty hot to the touch. I'll see if I can do temperature measures on the final shipping version.


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## CUL8R (Feb 19, 2014)

Has Niwalker given any idea of when they hope to hit the market with this light?


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## caddylover (Feb 24, 2014)

wow, looks like I found my first niwalker!


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## MBentz (Feb 24, 2014)

This light is going to the top of the wish list. It's so small, I would love if they made a slightly larger version utilizing eight 18650s in a 4s4p* configuration with incredible run time at high outputs.

* - Yes, I have more 18650s than I know what to do with.


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## Samlittle (Feb 26, 2014)

I love the entire concept of this light. Small with big capacity, with a handle/in a pinch belt clip and lots o light that will make this the near perfect edc for my work. Yikes - more $$ to spend  . :thanks: self built for the review.


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## RCantor (Feb 28, 2014)

MBentz said:


> This light is going to the top of the wish list. It's so small, I would love if they made a slightly larger version utilizing eight 18650s in a 4s4p* configuration with incredible run time at high outputs.
> 
> * - Yes, I have more 18650s than I know what to do with.



+1 - a screw on extension or alternate longer barrel with another 4 18650s in parallel to the first carrier.


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## 380long (Mar 1, 2014)

When will this be available for purchase?


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## selfbuilt (Mar 3, 2014)

380long said:


> When will this be available for purchase?


I don't have an update from Niwalker, but I would expect they are nearly there with the final version. I will let you know when I hear anything.


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## cheetokhan (Mar 17, 2014)

Get it for 220 Euros ($305) here.


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## MBentz (Mar 17, 2014)

Seems a bit expensive to be an early adopter.

Plus vinh was going sell a modded version for somewhere around $230 IIRC. Think I'll hold out for a better price when it comes state side.


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## hikingman (Mar 19, 2014)

MBentz said:


> *Seems a bit expensive to be an early adopter.*
> 
> Plus vinh was going sell a modded version for somewhere around $230 IIRC. Think I'll hold out for a better price when it comes state side.



They probably are seeing everyone frothing at the mouth to get this thing - doesn't help keep prices down


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## KarstGhost (Apr 19, 2014)

These are now for sale!  Thanks for another great review, really looking forward to this one.


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## selfbuilt (Apr 19, 2014)

KarstGhost said:


> These are now for sale!  Thanks for another great review, really looking forward to this one.


FYI, Niwalker will be sending me a final shipping sample to review. No exact ETA yet, but I will compare it when it arrives. :wave:


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## artis (Apr 21, 2014)

Hi selfbuilt,

I need a new flounder light and this one looks really good with 5h runtime on 2k lumens.

Thinking about getting two TK35UE or one MM15. I need as floody as possible 5-20m in front of me. I'm looked also at TK76 with 120degree beam but it's too big and expensive.

You reviewed both light, can you please tell me which will produce more flood and wider beam angle: two TK35UE or one MM15 ? I was thinking of putting TK35UE in 30-40 angle to each other to get wider beam.


Also Niwalker specs said they tested runtime with 2200 battery, which means 3400 batteries will give 40-50% more runtime ?
Just wondering if specs are right, as Fenix runtimes (with 2600 batteries tested) are much lower.

TK35UE 2x18650 - 750lum - 4h
MM15 4x18650 - 1950lum - 5h ( or almost 6h 20min with 2600 batteries )


How about MM15 mode button ? Is it push button ? Do you think that sand or tiny debris from ocean salt water could get inside button and break seal. It happened to TK21 within year or two and water get past mode button and saw droplets on inside lens.

Thank you and sorry for so much questions.


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## selfbuilt (Apr 21, 2014)

artis said:


> You reviewed both light, can you please tell me which will produce more flood and wider beam angle: two TK35UE or one MM15 ? I was thinking of putting TK35UE in 30-40 angle to each other to get wider beam.


The MM15 has a much wider spillbeam than the TK35UE. Not sure how well two side-by-side would work - you will get two more defined hotspots due to the deeper reflectors on the TK35UE.



> Also Niwalker specs said they tested runtime with 2200 battery, which means 3400 batteries will give 40-50% more runtime ? Just wondering if specs are right, as Fenix runtimes (with 2600 batteries tested) are much lower.


Larger capacity will give more runtime, but it is not exactly linear. Also, the Fenix lights are fully regulated, while the MM15 drops off in a direct-drive pattern.



> How about MM15 mode button ? Is it push button ? Do you think that sand or tiny debris from ocean salt water could get inside button and break seal. It happened to TK21 within year or two and water get past mode button and saw droplets on inside lens.


I don't know how well it would last - but sea air/salt water is highly corrosive. You are likely to have issues with anything that isn't designed and rated for that purpose.


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## TomElf (Apr 22, 2014)

Excellent review, once again! Now that they are shipping with discounts, I'm thinking of getting one. It's great as is, but hoping can be easy to resistor mod.


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## Alex1982 (Apr 24, 2014)

Excelent review and great flashlight.:thumbsup: 
The efficiency of Niwalker MiniMax MM15 Nova 2xMT-G2 PO is extraordinary. 
I waited a flashlight, with a level of about 2000 lumens with more than 5 hours of runtime. 

Council kindly to Niwalker to release a diffusion filter for very short distances. 
Otherwise, i will be forced to use the Nitecore diffuser filter NFD60 in the MiniMax MM15 Nova 
In addition, a version (also limited edition) 2xMT-G2 4000K would be great for the fans who prefer a tint more on the warm white.


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## don.gwapo (Apr 24, 2014)

Thanks for the review SB. 

Just got the light today and I'm very impressed with light. Mode spacing is really good and the turbo is just . 
Momentary turbo is also welcome to UI. .


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## GhostReaction (Apr 24, 2014)

Strongly believe that SB review on the light prototype has provided valuable feedback, which Niwalker listened and improved for final release. 
Company that listens to users for refinement and developments, will definitely get my support :twothumbs 
Ordered my MM15 thru Vinh, hope SB like those versions as well


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## pinhead (Apr 24, 2014)

I found a video review at night regarding Niwalker Nova MM15 here, if you are interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N08cL_0IRsQ&list=UUZu5b_IDw68joYdwsPHA-Cw

Please note that the review is in German language, however the performance is impressive although if you don´t speak and understand German.


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## selfbuilt (Apr 24, 2014)

GhostReaction said:


> Strongly believe that SB review on the light prototype has provided valuable feedback, which Niwalker listened and improved for final release.


Yes, Niwalker does seem to be very open on feedback, which is good to see.

FYI, I have received my final shipping sample. However, I am away for most of the next two weeks, so there will be a delay in my getting to it. But I will prioritize it for review, so should have it ready within a week of my return.


----------



## Blue Steel (Apr 25, 2014)

selfbuilt said:


> However, I am away for most of the next two weeks, so there will be a delay in my getting to it.


 Oh, man. The suspense for this review.


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## CUL8R (Apr 30, 2014)

Just received my MM15vn (with domes on) and love it! Can't wait for dark!! I'm also really, really looking forward to SB's test of the base light and hopefully both of Vinh's versions. That should give a great idea of the base light's capability, and what hotrodding it with and without domes adds to the mix. SB, like everyone else around here I've come to really look forward to and rely on your reviews when considering any light!


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## ven (Apr 30, 2014)

CUL8R said:


> ! I'm also really, really looking forward to SB's test of the base light and hopefully both of Vinh's versions. That should give a great idea of the base light's capability, and what hotrodding it with and without domes adds to the mix. SB, like everyone else around here I've come to really look forward to and rely on your reviews when considering any light!



+1


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## zebraa (Apr 30, 2014)

selfbuilt said:


> Yes, Niwalker does seem to be very open on feedback, which is good to see.
> 
> FYI, I have received my final shipping sample. However, I am away for most of the next two weeks, so there will be a delay in my getting to it. But I will prioritize it for review, so should have it ready within a week of my return.



Awesome! I too am greatly looking forward to the Selfbuilt view of the MM15vn!!!


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## selfbuilt (Apr 30, 2014)

Hi all

I have received the stock MM15, and the dome on/dedome samples from Vinh are en route.

But please note that I am away for the next week, so there will be a slight delay in processing everything. They will be prioritized for review upon my return. :wave:


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## 240 (May 7, 2014)

Anyone else get theirs yet? I can't seem to screw the handle into the light. It would appear the screws are too large. I also tried without the handle and couldn't get them screwed in. Just looking for a second opinion. Thanks.


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## Kabible (May 7, 2014)

Mine is on the way so I don't yet know the thread pitch & diameter. Suggest taking your light and handle to a "mom & pop" hardware store (Ace) and ask for help to find the correct stainless allen head screws.


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## ven (May 8, 2014)

selfbuilt said:


> Hi all
> 
> I have received the stock MM15, and the dome on/dedome samples from Vinh are en route.
> 
> But please note that I am away for the next week, so there will be a slight delay in processing everything. They will be prioritized for review upon my return. :wave:



Boy this next week will drag,like waiting for a vinh light :laughing: yesterday is too long

Safe trip:thumbsup: look forward with great anticipation


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## selfbuilt (May 8, 2014)

240 said:


> Anyone else get theirs yet? I can't seem to screw the handle into the light. It would appear the screws are too large. I also tried without the handle and couldn't get them screwed in. Just looking for a second opinion. Thanks.


The screws worked fine on my review sample. Testing is still in progress, hope to have the review up by early next week.



ven said:


> Boy this next week will drag,like waiting for a vinh light :laughing: yesterday is too long
> Safe trip:thumbsup: look forward with great anticipation


Just got back, but the Vinh modded lights haven't arrived yet. Packages from the US can take a bit of time at the border. :shrug:


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## juplin (May 8, 2014)

RedForest UK said:


> What gets me is the 'higher' mode, if I'm reading the graph correctly it shows 2000 dropping slowly to 1500 for 5 hours on 4x 2200mah 18650s. That's equivalent to 1700+ lumens average for 1hr 15 minutes on a single 2200mah 18650, which would suggest 1700+ for nearly 2 hours on a 3400mah NCR18650b.
> 
> That's more than double the typical performance of a single 18650 XM-L/XM-L2 light.


I am also confused with average 1700 lumens for 5 hours and 21 minutes on 4x 2200mah 18650s.
Each MT-G2 must output 850 lumens to achieve total 1700 lumens. 850 lumens correspond to 1.1A forward current and around 5.7V forward voltage by referring to the datasheet of MT-G2.
The total power consumption of two MT-G2 LEDs with overall 1700 lumens will be 2 x 1.1A x 5.7V or 12.54W.
The overall capacity of 4x 2200mah 18650s is 4 x 2.2 Ah x 3.7V or 32.56 Wh.
Assume the efficiency of the step-down circuit is 100%. With 32.56 Wh of overall battery capacity, the maximum run time of 1700 lumens can only be 32.56 Wh / 12.54W or 2.6 hours.


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## ven (May 8, 2014)

Not tested but iirc it drops down,does not stay regulated at 1700lm,yes it is impossible to sustain 1700lm on 4x 2200 mah cells for 5hrs 21 mins..........


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## juplin (May 8, 2014)

It's not regulated, starting with 2000 lumens and slowly dropping. Average is around 1600~1700 lumens for the first five hours by referring to the runtime curve.


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## ven (May 8, 2014)

Not sure then,i would have thought a huge ask but.............i have not run tests,and if selfbuilt has and those are his results then those are the results.

Pretty amazing then if correct


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## RedForest UK (May 8, 2014)

I have received mine and with cells with a resting voltage of between 3.8 and 4v (not mixed together of course) I measure these estimated output levels and current draws:

10L - 0.01A 
145L - 0.10A
410L - 0.25A
735L - 0.45A
1730L - 1.05/1.18A 
5120L/4960L - 3.75/4.05A

Any '/' indicate variance over a number of measurements, other values were relatively consistent. Please also bear in mind that my measurements are quite conservative compared to a few manufacturers' specifications.

These results seem more in line with what I'd expect, although still very impressive. But of course I can't justify questioning selfbuilt's results based on only current draws as he has provided full runtime graphs.

On another note, the fit and finish of the light are exceptional, with a fantastic black matte anodizing (reminiscent of Armytek). The beam quality is great and the tint is again fantastic. The breadth of the beam combined with the tint mean that turning on the 5000L mode looks like turning on summer daylight everywhere in front of you out to 50-75 yards.


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## ven (May 9, 2014)

Congrats red forest:twothumbs thanks for the results,mine will differ slightly no doubt but very interesting all the same.

Really love this mini beast








Next to the tm15 for size comp of head




Huge angle of flood








UI takes a little getting used to but happy with it overall,3 clicks for lock out/on takes a little getting used to (couple of attempts and a couple of being strobed:sick2 :laughing:

But it works!! i do love the green N too,imho its a must buy............especially the vn version WOW :twothumbs

IMR KeepPower 30A 2100mah fed





eyes of the beast




Feed me!!


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## pageyjim (May 9, 2014)

Well I got mine, impressive light, nice tint, smaller than I expected even after seeing the pictures. Only problem is the only way to access turbo is to hold down the switch from standby. New batteries, Eagtac 3100 at 4.1vdc. Tried it with light cool etc but stays in high or level 5. It thinks it's in turbo because another double click puts me in strobe modes. Tested it with meter etc. Ordered a replacement to be tested before shipping at my expense so I don't have to wait forever. Disappointing
It's ironic I was torn between the SR Mini and the MM15 and I get the MM15 but the UI works like the SR MINI.


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## Bass (May 10, 2014)

My Niwalker Nova MiniMax MM15 arrived yesterday. It's early days but I thought I'd post some comments and photos for anyone who has this light on their shortlist.

It's extremely well made - the machining, anodizing, fit and finish are top drawer. It is a quality light all the way through, with some well thought out details and design decisions. Niwalker are obviously a very experienced manufacturing and engineering company. It exceeded my expectations and was worth the money.

The size is just right. From the photos it looks an odd shape; too wide, but in use it fits perfectly in the hand and the machining detail around the bottom acts like a hand cut out - even though it is not.

The handle - although I will likely never use it, it had to be included. This light gets hot. Fast. Within a minute on turbo it is red hot at the head. Finally a light with 'caution hot' etched on the head that actually deserves the moniker! For longer periods on high it would make holding it comfortable if that's your intended usage.

The circuit / driver / light engine is nicely done. Nice spacing of modes with no PWM or noise that I can detect. From Selfbuilt review and comments above it appears to be very efficient. 

My first Cree Mt-G2 light and very nice it is to! Beautifull smooth diffused beam, no artifacts and amazingly wide spill beam (due to the shallow reflectors). It is almost mule wide. Beam colour / tint is perfect for outdoors and really bring out the greens and browns compared to cool white. No colour shift from hot spot to spill either - amazing LED.

It's seriously bright. It's light up the whole back garden bright. It an evolutionary step up in brightness for a light this size. It even throws further than I thought it would. It put a smile on my face when I turned it on turbo - what better feeling is there than that CPFer's? :thumbsup:

There is only one thing that can be improved for me and that's the UI getting back from turbo. Say I'm on level 3 and want to get to turbo, I double click to enter turbo but if I want to go back to level 3 I have to turn the light off and then on again, whereby it goes back to level 3 due to the mode memory. I would have liked an option to be able to get back to previous level without turning off and being without light. Another mode I would have liked is after accessing momentary turbo from off to be able to lock it on turbo if I wanted. Presently you click and hold to get instant turbo but you have to hold the button down - if you take pressure off it turns off.

These are very small details and more to do with my personal preference. I'm thrilled with the MM15 and excited about what Niwalker does next.


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## ven (May 10, 2014)

Awesome pics bass,superb:twothumbs its a fantastic light for sure

So is yours standard then,not modded? and it gets hot still within a minute..........if so thats very interesting as mine is around 6500lm being a vn and seems similar temp wise but vinh has
Stage 1: Carrier tweaks + LED direct bonded to Copper, Current boost to 6.5A, New thermal compound, Driver Touch Up, Driver thermal pad cooling, thicker wiring

Congtats bass:twothumbs

In the hand size


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## kj2 (May 10, 2014)

Great photos Bass


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## Bass (May 10, 2014)

Thanks guys! 

Ven - congrats also on your Vinh! Mine is the standard model, not modded. It get's very hot after 1 minute on turbo (which is pretty much all it's been on since I got it  - I don't see the point of holding a light of this weight and using 4 x 18650's to use any other level LOL!)

It gets almost too hot to hold when it's been going beyond that. I see this as a good thing - to a point. The heat is being dissipated away from the LED's and the body is absorbing it. However, it's obviously being driven too hard for a light this size so god knows what your Vinh mod is like! I assume the reason the turbo UI is the way it is ( which I think could be better as noted above) is intentional. Turbo is only for short bursts. Having said all that I have not been able to hold mine long enough, because it gets too hot, to actually see the auto step down from turbo in action.

Anyone else getting the same?


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## pageyjim (May 10, 2014)

Bass said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> Ven - congrats also on your Vinh! Mine is the standard model, not modded. It get's very hot after 1 minute on turbo (which is pretty much all it's been on since I got it : grin: - I don't see the point of holding a light of this weight and using 4 x 18650's to use any other level LOL!)
> 
> ...



I have the standard model also. It seems funny to me that we have to say standard or "vn". The normal turbo function doesn't work. I have to hold the switch for turbo. I have done so for 2 min and it gets hot but not to hot to hold the switch etc. It seems to me that's the age old question. Which one is dissipating the heat better? I don't know. I can't measure the actual lumen output but I know from a meter that turbo is more than 2.5 times the output on high. I will have my replacement on monday.


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## ven (May 10, 2014)

Iirc the step down is apparently at 4 mins,but vinh did warn not to rely on it and 4 mins is too long anyway with the modded version.

A concern of mine is the handle,a good few peeps will buy this light and obviously it will run hot,without care it could over heat very quickly,handle would stop you from realising being away from light and not transferring heat.............i predict a few Niwalker returns in the future..........guess it depends on how well made it is inside.

Yes good point on the heat dissipation,but i do wonder how hot it is inside too........ I have checked cells when getting towards the end of the warm scale and were fine temp wise.

Have a read up bass if not already on the mm15vn thread,last couple of pages where some testing has been done,very interestingfrom around here on
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?381409-WTS-MM15vn-Noah/page56

I just use the simple rule(same with any light i have) of when it gets towards the uncomfortable side,knock down to level 5 or less,or even off to cool.Others tested to find out,so proper tests which benefit us all:twothumbs


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## ven (May 10, 2014)

What cells are you guys using as i am sure this will effect it too,i am using IMR 30A KeepPower cells for example.


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## pageyjim (May 10, 2014)

ven said:


> What cells are you guys using as i am sure this will effect it too,i am using IMR 30A KeepPower cells for example.



Eagtac 3100 all the same voltage etc. I tried 2 different sets with same results. Also tried Nitecore 2600 and I believed I measured a slight increase in output in turbo. Unsure if it was a fluke and I got frustrated with it not working properly so I put them away lol.


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## Bass (May 10, 2014)

Thanks for the link. Some of the comments contradict my experience regarding use of turbo for long periods and that is with a vn. One guy ran is for 13 minutes on turbo before it got too hot! Asbestos hands? 



ven said:


> What cells are you guys using as i am sure this will effect it too,i am using IMR 30A KeepPower cells for example.



You're right and this may be a factor. I'm using Keeppower but not IMR's and also from two different batches. ie two are 6 months old and two are 1 month old. I only have a two bay charger ( albeit a good one) but all charged to max showing 4.2 on the display.

This had crossed my mind and I have 4 new cells arriving Monday just for this light. I'll update once I've run again with new cells.

Maybe this is the issue as pageyjim posted above he can run his for 2 minutes, maybe the light is faulty or maybe I'm just a wimp!


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## ven (May 10, 2014)

That maybe why you get 2 mins in turbo and still be able to hold light,have you any IMR cells to try? .............just a thought not saying it is right.


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## ven (May 10, 2014)

I have had great results so far with the IMR cells(same as 20r),also use them in my tn35vn(mainly as they fit and my protected pany cells dont) and 3500lm too




http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ew-of-Keeppower-IMR18650-2100mAh-(Black)-2014


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## pageyjim (May 10, 2014)

I'd be happy with 2-3 min before it got to hot. One minute I'd be a little concerned personally but I wouldn't jump the gun until I got a set of matched batteries. I don't think IMR batteries are necessary for the stock version. Atleast I don't think their testing used IMR batteries. Also "hot" is a relative term we are not using measurements.


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## Bass (May 10, 2014)

pageyjim said:


> I'd be happy with 2-3 min before it got to hot. One minute I'd be a little concerned personally but I wouldn't jump the gun until I got a set of matched batteries. I don't think IMR batteries are necessary for the stock version. Atleast I don't think their testing used IMR batteries. Also "hot" is a relative term we are not using measurements.



Thanks pageyjim. That mirrors what I thought. I had a doubt on the batteries. The four new cells were supposed to be delivered on Friday but I couldn't wait to fire it up. I should know better tbh.

Hope your replacement works out.


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## pageyjim (May 10, 2014)

Bass said:


> Thanks pageyjim. That mirrors what I thought. I had a doubt on the batteries. The four new cells were supposed to be delivered on Friday but I couldn't wait to fire it up. I should know better tbh.
> 
> Hope your replacement works out.



I wouldn't have waited either, no way lol.


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## ven (May 10, 2014)

pageyjim said:


> I wouldn't have waited either, no way lol.




+1


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## mmonroe (May 16, 2014)

I got my Niwalker MM15 last night and wanted to post some thoughts and ask a question or two.


0) My first impression of the light is that it is very nice and seems well built. The packaging, box and whatnot are well done. It is very compact, feels great, looks great and is extremely bright. It puts out a wall of light. The only light that I have that has comparable light output is my Lupine Betty R14 that I use for cycling.


1) Basically the MM15 is in "standby mode" or "locked out". You can push the control button three-times quickly and it basically completely turns it off. Three-more quick pushes and it comes back alive in stand-by mode. 


When it is in standby mode, the green control button will flash every five or so seconds. It is a freaking bright green flash though. So bright that I could not leave it in standby mode by the bed last night. I turned it completely off via the "lockout" mode and that turned off the green flashing of the control button. 


Now, to use the light in lockout-mode, you have to do the quick-three-click to get the light out of lockout, the light then flashes twice to let you know this has happened, then you have to press the control button again to turn it on. Not exactly what you want to have to do, or try to remember, to turn on your flashlight if you think an intruder is in the house if you are awakened. 


2) From a tactical/stealth perspective, if you are walking around at night with the light off but in standby mode, the flashing green light will let the whole world know where you are. You can try to put your thumb over the flashing control button in an attempt to cover it. Again, you can put it in lock-mode to stop the flashing green control button, but getting light back on will be slower and it will do the 2-flash alert which might not be what you want in a tactical situation.


3) If you can deal with the bright constantly flashing green control button, standby mode is the way to leave the light in a ready state for quick use. I wonder how much power drain that green light will use over weeks or months. 


In summary, I like the light but the flashing green control button is a problem for me. It is a issue when simply sitting on the table at night or if being used in a tactical sense. You *can* turn it off by doing the full lockout-mode but then turning the light back on is more difficult and it does the two-flash thing letting you know it is back in standby mode which could be a huge problem in tactical situation. 


Does anyone know of a way to have it in standby mode and disable the continuous flashing green control button?


Mark


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## ven (May 16, 2014)

Congrats on the light mark,i dont personally,other option would be to cover it up with something but it does turn red to warn cells are low.

If your not bothered about the red warning, there is the option of using some matte paint and colouring the button in with a fine brush................dont know if would work etc just a thought if say tape is not ideal.Trouble is its not a tactical light,its a flood monster,sorry cant help other than that. 

Or have it under something(bed)so can grab it easy and no green flashing distraction at night


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## kj2 (May 16, 2014)

Must resist.. to not buy


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## stevenkelby (May 16, 2014)

I unscrewed the switch and put black tape under there to block out ~99% of the green light


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## ven (May 16, 2014)

kj2 said:


> Must resist.. to not buy



imho resisting it will be one of your worse flashlight decisions..............


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## kj2 (May 16, 2014)

ven said:


> imho resisting it will be one of your worse flashlight decisions..............


If I can find a dealer/seller here in my country (or at least in the EU), it will be very tempting


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## ven (May 16, 2014)

stevenkelby said:


> I unscrewed the switch and put black tape under there to block out ~99% of the green light




Great idea ,was not aware that you could unscrew the switch,great tip:twothumbs 

I do like my bright green N though no stealth ninja mall stuff for me :laughing:


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## ven (May 16, 2014)

kj2 said:


> If I can find a dealer/seller here in my country (or at least in the EU), it will be very tempting



Of all the lights i have,especially vinh lights i have been over the moon..........twice.

No regrets at all,the mm15 be it a vn or not imo is just a must buy,its an amazing light and thats coming from tk75vn /tn35vn and tk61vn(to name just 3 high powered lights)........its just so special in its own mini way.Very nice size/feel/build,feels/looks expensive and not cheap,and obviously the flood is very useful.Iirc you did a pic of the tk35ue(could be wrong as my memory last the same time as turbo on the mm15vn:laughing: ) so for walking its just as good as it gets,light up the field,dogs will think its day time...........but your hand may feel like an oven :laughing:

BUY BUY BUY

Have you considered a vn light,i know your customs can be a pita though..........just a thought:twothumbs


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## TRK (May 16, 2014)

Is the handle removable on the final production version? I'm assuming the final production version is the one without the two screws on either side of the activation button - is that correct? Thanks!


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## kj2 (May 16, 2014)

ven said:


> Of all the lights i have,especially vinh lights i have been over the moon..........twice.
> 
> No regrets at all,the mm15 be it a vn or not imo is just a must buy,its an amazing light and thats coming from tk75vn /tn35vn and tk61vn(to name just 3 high powered lights)........its just so special in its own mini way.Very nice size/feel/build,feels/looks expensive and not cheap,and obviously the flood is very useful.Iirc you did a pic of the tk35ue(could be wrong as my memory last the same time as turbo on the mm15vn:laughing: ) so for walking its just as good as it gets,light up the field,dogs will think its day time...........but your hand may feel like an oven :laughing:
> BUY BUY BUY
> Have you considered a vn light,i know your customs can be a pita though..........just a thought:twothumbs


A pic of the TK35UE?? Man, I did a whole review :laughing:
I know Vn lights are cool, but do think it's a hype at the moment. Maybe I'll get a custom someday, but not for now.
I've suggested Niwalker to a local flashlight-dealer here. So if they start selling them, I'll visit them right away


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## kj2 (May 16, 2014)

TRK said:


> Is the handle removable on the final production version? I'm assuming the final production version is the one without the two screws on either side of the activation button - is that correct? Thanks!


" _Final version changes, according to Niwalker:

Change the way to mount the handle and raise the handle (there won't be two empty space when handle is not installed) "
_


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## ven (May 16, 2014)

Yes as above ,just done a quick pic for you,not best as .......well quick :laughing: and on phone

No screws as in original version,now out of sight.............almost,uses small screws and as kj2 said,its raised.Not even fitted it,dont like,not right in looks and feel for me.I think its far better to hold light as you would a tiny monster(by the body) fits perfect.The handle could allow light you to run it too hot without knowing.Best way is by hand to judge temp,once you know when warm is getting towards very warm/hot then step down.With handle you could be relying on the step down...........just a thought


Quicky picy




as can see now smaller and out of the way


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## ven (May 16, 2014)

kj2 said:


> A pic of the TK35UE?? Man, I did a whole review :laughing:
> I know Vn lights are cool, but do think it's a hype at the moment. Maybe I'll get a custom someday, but not for now.
> I've suggested Niwalker to a local flashlight-dealer here. So if they start selling them, I'll visit them right away




Yes and as always superb reviews:twothumbs i just recall a picture of a field or "front garden" :laughing: it might have been another member,IIRC your showed some garden pics,well admittedly the tk35ue looks superb ,i guess it would be like having 2 of them with the power of 3 but more floody.

Good thing with vinh as you know his service is awesome,also he does compensate mods by beefing components up too and backs his work up.........no 6 weeks + wait as i have read with some fenix warranties. But completely respect your views/opinions as modded is not for everyone.I think the stage 0 is a great option as its tweaks for heat sinking and carrier tweaks,so no output changes,just better components/materials inside.

Either way a teaser pic/s(i just struggle posting 1 pic :laughing: ),least i could do for waffling on









tiny max and mini monster:sick2: :laughing:








Next to the tk51





Look forward to your pro pics...............


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## mmonroe (May 16, 2014)

stevenkelby said:


> I unscrewed the switch and put black tape under there to block out ~99% of the green light



Would you mind sharing details on how to unscrew the switch? I figure I would be smart for once and ask before I start ripping into it.


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## selfbuilt (May 16, 2014)

Hi all, the review of the MM15 shipping version is almost done - I hope to have it up in a few days.



mmonroe said:


> I wonder how much power drain that green light will use over weeks or months.


The final shipping version has the same standby flash every 4 secs. I provided current measures in the "Standby Drain" section of this review, which are equally applicable to the shipping version. See that section for more details. 



stevenkelby said:


> I unscrewed the switch and put black tape under there to block out ~99% of the green light


Yes, this is a possibility. For those who do no want to open up the switch, something I use on a lot my home electronics with overly bright LED indicators are the removable Light Dims stickers. Usually, a single application of the original strength ones (~70% block) does the trick for most things. For the MM15, I suspect you would want to double-up. Note that the complete block ones (100%) do indeed completely block any trace of the indicator on the MM15.

They are available from a few retailers, but I've ordered directly from the manufacturer and have gotten them fairly quickly (see link above).


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## ven (May 16, 2014)

selfbuilt said:


> Hi all, the review of the MM15 shipping version is almost done - I hope to have it up in a few days.
> 
> 
> :bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow:
> ...


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## pinhead (May 16, 2014)

kj2 said:


> If I can find a dealer/seller here in my country (or at least in the EU), it will be very tempting



Seems to be there is a Niwalker dealer in Germany: https://www.msitc-shop.com/taschenlampen/niwalker-nova-mm15-2-x-mt-g2-5233-lumen-max/a-790/


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## stevenkelby (May 16, 2014)

mmonroe said:


> Would you mind sharing details on how to unscrew the switch? I figure I would be smart for once and ask before I start ripping into it.



Sure, I'll take a little video


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## stevenkelby (May 16, 2014)

mmonroe said:


> Would you mind sharing details on how to unscrew the switch? I figure I would be smart for once and ask before I start ripping into it.



Here you go:


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## ven (May 17, 2014)

:thumbsup::bow: awesome steven,i am sure many owners will be very grateful for that video:twothumbs


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## kj2 (May 17, 2014)

pinhead said:


> Seems to be there is a Niwalker dealer in Germany: https://www.msitc-shop.com/taschenlampen/niwalker-nova-mm15-2-x-mt-g2-5233-lumen-max/a-790/


Thanks  Have bookmark it. Although the price is quite high. For that price, I also could go Vn.
@ven - hee, do you hear me?? :laughing:


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## Bass (May 17, 2014)

kj2 said:


> Thanks  Have bookmark it. Although the price is quite high.



Kj2 try Flashaholics in the UK http://www.flashaholics.co.uk/niwalker/niwalker-minimax-nova-mm15.html price with shipping to the EU would be about €180. Use discount code CPF at checkout for additional 7% discount. That will save you over €50 compared to Taschenlamp.

I got mine from them and have bought too many lights from Antony over the years


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## kj2 (May 17, 2014)

Bass said:


> Kj2 try Flashaholics in the UK http://www.flashaholics.co.uk/niwalker/niwalker-minimax-nova-mm15.html price with shipping to the EU would be about €180. Use discount code CPF at checkout for additional 7% discount. That will save you over €50 compared to Taschenlamp.
> I got mine from them and have bought too many lights from Antony over the years


That's sounds better to my ears 
Thanks for the link.


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## ven (May 17, 2014)

kj2 said:


> I also could go Vn.
> @ven - hee, do you hear me?? :laughing:



:twothumbs i hear you:thumbsup: :laughing:


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## ven (May 17, 2014)

Bass said:


> Kj2 try Flashaholics in the UK http://www.flashaholics.co.uk/niwalker/niwalker-minimax-nova-mm15.html price with shipping to the EU would be about €180. Use discount code CPF at checkout for additional 7% discount. That will save you over €50 compared to Taschenlamp.
> 
> I got mine from them and have bought too many lights from Antony over the years



Thats a pretty good offer is that Bass,find some of their lights on the expensive side ,others not so, but that seems a good offer does that,especially for the UK!!


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## kj2 (May 17, 2014)

ven said:


> Thats a pretty good offer is that Bass,find some of their lights on the expensive side ,others not so, but that seems a good offer does that,especially for the UK!!


To Vn or not to Vn.. 
Price of the MM15vn isn't that much more, than the regular light. But.. there is always that customs-part 
Just hoping to get some good news, on Monday. If so, I really have to order one


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## ven (May 17, 2014)

kj2 said:


> To Vn or not to Vn..
> Price of the MM15vn isn't that much more, than the regular light. But.. there is always that customs-part
> Just hoping to get some good news, on Monday. If so, I really have to order one



Well with which ever decision you make(hope its a vn one) good news comes on Monday:thumbsup:


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## Bass (May 17, 2014)

For those that need some more information on the included carry handle, here's some images.

You need to remove the main tube and screw in from the back. A bit fiddly with the included hex key but simple enough.


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## kj2 (May 17, 2014)

Thanks for the extra photos Bass


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## ven (May 17, 2014)

Yes big thanks Bass,superb pics:twothumbs i can see you took some tips from me.................:thinking: ok maybe not :laughing:

Thank you:thumbsup:


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## ven (May 17, 2014)

What are your opinions Bass on the handle please,mine are on the negative side tbh,more an afterthought imho.........and difficult to judge heat unless constantly checking body.........also makes the switch use less friendly, as when holding body it just falls perfect for the switch


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## Bass (May 17, 2014)

ven said:


> What are your opinions Bass on the handle please,mine are on the negative side tbh



It's perfectly adequate IMO. As the MM15 gets hot quickly it is necessary for when you need to run the light for prolonged periods. The design is well thought out; much better than the prototype version. 

Regarding the switch access, I don't see how they could have improved it without putting the switch on the handle. This could only be done if the handle was permanent, non-removeable and part of the head or tube. 

I would have like it to be quick release, a click lock design but at the price that surely won't happen and the head or tube would need to be bigger.


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## Bass (May 17, 2014)

kj2 said:


> Thanks for the extra photos Bass






ven said:


> Yes big thanks Bass,superb pics



Thanks guys :thumbsup: They say a picture is worth a thousand words, hope some members find them useful.


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## kj2 (May 17, 2014)

Bass said:


> Thanks guys :thumbsup: They say a picture is worth a thousand words, hope some members find them useful.


Could you shoot a photo of the + -end for me? 
Does it take flat-top batteries?


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## ven (May 17, 2014)

As long as flat top is a touch raised then yes


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## kj2 (May 17, 2014)

ven said:


> As long as flat top is a touch raised then yes


Thanks. The batteries I was looking at, are plain Panasonic IMR cells, so not raised at all. 
So, will go AW when/if I order the Vn-version


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## ven (May 17, 2014)

If you go for the vn kj2 you need 6.5A per cell,the best overall cells seem to be the PFs at 10A and 2900mah,i use the IMR KeepPower 2100 rated at 30A(I like overkill):twothumbs(same as 20r inside)
But you cant run on turbo for long ,be it standard or vn due to heat,but if longer run times at level 5(around 2000lm) then higher mah the better.I top off my cells so 2100/2900 for me is not too important .
Not sure what the AW are rated at,if protected make sure they wont trip..........just a thought:thumbsup:


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## ven (May 17, 2014)

Just tested some flat top LGabc21865 and contact + fine.


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## ven (May 17, 2014)

ven said:


> Just tested some flat top LGabc21865 and contact + fine.




cells


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## kj2 (May 17, 2014)

ven said:


> If you go for the vn kj2 you need 6.5A per cell,the best overall cells seem to be the PFs at 10A and 2900mah,i use the IMR KeepPower 2100 rated at 30A(I like overkill):twothumbs(same as 20r inside)
> But you cant run on turbo for long ,be it standard or vn due to heat,but if longer run times at level 5(around 2000lm) then higher mah the better.I top off my cells so 2100/2900 for me is not too important .
> Not sure what the AW are rated at,if protected make sure they wont trip..........just a thought:thumbsup:


They aren't protected. 2000mAh (7.4Wh) can give max 10A, so should do the job


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## ven (May 17, 2014)

kj2 said:


> They aren't protected. 2000mAh (7.4Wh) can give max 10A, so should do the job



:twothumbs


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## CUL8R (May 17, 2014)

I've been running Sony VTC5's on my VN version. They are unprotected flat tops with 30 amp continuous discharge and 2500mah rating. Very bright, and a flawless fit and function. So I think any flat top would probably work, unless the flat top was actually slightly recessed (then not really a flat top).

This is great light!!! The stock light is wonderful and Vinh's are superb!


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## Bass (May 18, 2014)

@Ven - where do you buy your batteries from please? The IMR KP's look good, I have the protected versions.

You quoted a BangGood discount code but I can't find the post. Thanks!


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## selfbuilt (May 19, 2014)

Hi all,

My final shipping MM15 review is now done:

Niwalker MiniMax Nova MM15 (2xMT-G2, 4x18650) SHIPPING Review: RUNTIME, BEAMSHOTS+

Please continue all discussions in that thread - it gets too confusing if discussions are occurring in multiple review threads simultaneously. Thanks!


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