# Surefire A2 Aviator bi-pin adaptors/Tad's customs



## Jim Bonney

Hi folks,

Instead of derailing Five-Mega's interest thread here's a place we can discuss Tad's Customs bi-pin adaptor for our A2's.

I just bought my A2 used a couple days ago and it has yet to arrive. I've never owned any Surefire before so when my A2 arrives it will be SF #1. In any case, I've preemptively ordered a few different things for it including one of Tad's Custom's bi-pin bulb adaptors.

Tad and I have exchanged several emails over the last 24 hours. He is gauging interest on the forum before doing a full-production swing. I should have his adaptor, a 4.8v bulb and a 3.7v bulb by the end of next week to pit against the stock Surefire bulb. Obviously, I won't be able to vouch for long-term endurance but I will be sharing my subjective opinions on the product with Tad and on this forum.

Tad's been very proactive about this so far. I think this is a good guy who is trying to fill a niche here and I'm happy to take the initial plunge and see how his stuff works. I don't see it as a rip on Five-Mega either; I'll still happily buy one of his as his workmanship and quality are legendary. Tad's just working on another option for us, so I thought it worth looking into.

Before rushing to the order page at Tad's Customs for A2 adaptors let some information spill in over the next couple weeks. He said he wants to make sure he's offering something people actually want before swinging into any sort of full production. He sent one of his two already produced units to another CPFer and is sending unit two to me. He told me he had produced these in the past for the Asian market and it was a successful product.

Anyway, that's the deal as of now. I'll add to this post as more things happen and more information becomes available.


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## archimedes

Subscribed, thanks ...


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## RWT1405

Very interested in hearing more, thanks!


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## bykfixer

The Mag G4 unit I ordered late yesterday from Tad shipped this morning. 
Got a tracking # too. It's coming via priority HKPS to priority USPS. That in past experiences with products by others has equated to about 8 calender days. 

Just throwing that out there folks.

Looks like a void is being filled so the few folks still digging on incans will have some choices. 

I'm still hoping fivemega does some more A2 stuff.


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## xdayv

Interested on the Bi-Pin for A2, looking foward!


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## Jim Bonney

bykfixer said:


> The Mag G4 unit I ordered late yesterday from Tad shipped this morning.
> Got a tracking # too. It's coming via priority HKPS to priority USPS. That in past experiences with products by others has equated to about 8 calender days.
> 
> Just throwing that out there folks.
> 
> Looks like a void is being filled so the few folks still digging on incans will have some choices.
> 
> I'm still hoping fivemega does some more A2 stuff.



Exactly. Being able to support two people supporting our habits is awesome. I hope Tad's product is solid and works out. I have no reason to think it won't. He seems genuinely interested in making this niche product well and to our liking. Everyone else, keep us up to date on other products from Tad that you get and what you think of them. We might have a real winner here.

About Five-Mega, I've never had anything of his but I'd love to. Getting a guy with his reputation to have interest in us incan-freaks is totally awesome. Anything he puts out for the A2 will have my interest for sure. He's a definite heavy-hitter on the forum and a sure bet with your dollar.

I wanted to add that I don't have anything good as far as video/camera equipment so I probably won't waste my time with beam shots or anything. I may or may not do a YouTube video, but at the least I'll do pictures of Tad's adaptor and the beater A2 I'm getting.


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## bykfixer

I use a celphone for beam shots.

The trick is the location you choose and the distance. The camera does the rest.

I chose a wall behind my house 15-20' away from the beam. Shows the spot.
It has a right angle to show the side spill.

An example:





Btt:
Knowing the topic is the A2, fivemega also has a site called nitemods. There you'll find products based off the 6P.


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## Bogie

Interested


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

I'm definitely interested in these. His price point is very good and the bulbs are very inexpensive so a life time supply only costs a small amount. I am more curious in the 3.7v bulb as I would like max lumens, but I'm also curious about how the 4.8v bulb runs at the A2's 4 volt output. It could be a nice option to have a few of these as well. 

I hope a production run is in the future even if it is a limited one to start with.


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## Jim Bonney

Well so far he is planning to make them. As of now he has only two on hand that are now spoken for. I think it's just smart to have someone on the forum look it over before we flood him with orders. He won't have them ready for two weeks at a minimum anyway. I should have my A2 and Tad's stuff in hand by next weekend to review if USPS decides to be timely...

Thanks for the tip, bykfixer!


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Definitely anticipating your review. 

If you are able, some comparative lux measurement of the stock A2 bulbs versus Tad's would be nice.


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## archimedes

Any chance for E-series bipin adapter ?

Too soon ... ?


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

archimedes said:


> Any chance for E-series bipin adapter ?
> 
> Too soon ... ?



Oooh..... Yeah, yeah. Me too!


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## Tad CSW

archimedes said:


> Any chance for E-series bipin adapter ?
> 
> Too soon ... ?



Why not? 

How about this?

*Solid Brass bi-pin Socket for E1/E2* - US$25 (one bulb included)

*Bi-pin Xenon Bulb* - US$2

Options:
3V (2.4V) 1.3A
3V (2.4V) 1.8A
3.7V 1.3A
3.7A 1.8A
4.8V 1.3A
4.8V 1.8A
7.2V 1.3A
7.2V 1.8A

Anyone wants to test this E1/E2 bi-pin socket? Please email me. I will try to finish two samples in 2 weeks.



Edit: E1 / E2 bi-pin kit samples reserved for ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond and MaxStatic.


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## Tad CSW

Thank you Jim. I will wait for your review before delivering the A2 bi-pin sockets.


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## MaxStatic

I just recently retired my A2's. Have no more bulbs for them and the cheapest bulbs I could find were all around $30 w/shipping.... Very interested in a way to get these back up and running.


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## Jim Bonney

Glad you're on the forum Tad. I think a lot of people are going to be really happy to have somebody like you here to help us breathe new life into our old Surefire lights!


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## CLHC

Whoa, highly interesting.


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## Jim Bonney

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My test mule arrived today. This thing is a solid user and it shows. I love nothing more than a well-worn tool.


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## bykfixer

Slightly off topic but a bow to Tad...




This will get his G4 set up.


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## gravelrash

I'll add my interest in A2/E1 bi-pin adapters. Waiting anxiously to hear more...


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## 1pt21

Tad CSW said:


> Why not?
> 
> How about this?
> 
> *Solid Brass bi-pin Socket for E1/E2* - US$25 (one bulb included)
> 
> *Bi-pin Xenon Bulb* - US$2
> 
> Options:
> 3V (2.4V) 1.3A
> 3V (2.4V) 1.8A
> 3.7V 1.3A
> 3.7A 1.8A
> 4.8V 1.3A
> 4.8V 1.8A
> 7.2V 1.3A
> 7.2V 1.8A
> 
> Anyone wants to test this E1/E2 bi-pin socket? Please email me. I will try to finish two samples in 2 weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: E1 / E2 bi-pin kit samples reserved for ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond and MaxStatic.




Hell yeah!!! 

Feels like years I've been waiting for a re-run of basically all of these offerings.. CANNOT WAIT!


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## MaxStatic

I jumped into the pre order for the A2 kit and will also be testing the E kit. I have an E2D and E1E and will be doing some basic testing with both primaries and 16430's with the various bulbs.

I dont have have a bunch of fancy test equipment to show run times or output or the like but I'll do my best to fill everybody in on what to expect. 

If if you have questions, send him an email, he is very responsive. It will be a bit before everything is cranked out so be patient and I'll fill you all in with what I find. Cheers.


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## Jim Bonney

^^^ Yep. I'm getting good vibes off this guy. Very excited to try out his stuff and see your test results off of the E2 adaptors.


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## scout24

Quite interested in the E-series adapter. Keeping an eye on the thread!


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## Jim Bonney

Just tried out Tad's adaptor, a 3.7V 1.8A bulb and a 4.8V 1.3A bulb. My pictures show a clear difference between the two prior mentioned bulbs and the stock Surefire unit. In order of brightness from least to most we have the 4.8V, the stock bulb, 3.7V coming out as the clear winner in light output.

The adaptor itself is very well made. In my very short testing so far it's functioned perfectly in my round-body. It was very easy to install; it just dropped right in with the perfect amount of fitment IMO. The stock Surefire bulb fits very tight and can be a pain to remove.

Tad's packaging was stellar. I will be posting pictures of the beams, the adaptor and packaging in a few hours when I get home.


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## Double Barrel

jimbyjimb said:


> Just tried out Tad's adaptor, a 3.7V 1.8A bulb and a 4.8V 1.3A bulb. My pictures show a clear difference between the two prior mentioned bulbs and the stock Surefire unit. In order of brightness from least to most we have the 4.8V, the stock bulb, 3.7V coming out as the clear winner in light output.
> 
> The adaptor itself is very well made. In my very short testing so far it's functioned perfectly in my round-body. It was very easy to install; it just dropped right in with the perfect amount of fitment IMO. The stock Surefire bulb fits very tight and can be a pain to remove.
> 
> Tad's packaging was stellar. I will be posting pictures of the beams, the adaptor and packaging in a few hours when I get home.



This sounds promising! 

Tad, please put me down for one, when and if these become available for purchase. 

Looking forward to more updates


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## Jim Bonney

Product photos:


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## Jim Bonney

Beamshots are from 18-20 yards in a very, almost completely dark mechanical room.

4.8V Bulb followed by 3.7V bulb followed by Stock MA-02:


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## bigchelis

Great pictures.


I myself have to both TadCustoms bi-pin kit for C mags and the packaging is incredible. The build quality seems equally impressive, but I am waiting for my 2C Hosts to come in the mail to do my full review and opinion.

This thread is making me want to pick up an A2 Incan now.....


bigC


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## calipsoii

This is a very interesting development; having a new readily-available source of both sockets and bulbs! jimbyjimb, do you have a newer, rounded 3-flats Aviator or one of the old Digital Plus Series 4-flats models? The bulb contact distance was slightly different between the two and it'd be interesting to know if it fits both.


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## Jim Bonney

bigchelis said:


> I am waiting for my 2C Hosts to come in the mail to do my full review and opinion.
> 
> This thread is making me want to pick up an A2 Incan now.....



I'm looking forward to seeing that as well. My flashlight introduction was via LED, I'm quickly falling in love with incans. A2's can be had for about 90 bucks in primo shape. I bet if you hunted long enough you could find a pretty good deal on one. The LED flood and 'gas-pedal' momentary push-button/twist for constant features make this one hell of a light. I loved it so much I just bought another from the WTS forum...


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## Jim Bonney

calipsoii said:


> jimbyjimb, do you have a newer, rounded 3-flats Aviator or one of the old Digital Plus Series 4-flats models? The bulb contact distance was slightly different between the two and it'd be interesting to know if it fits both.



I have a round body.


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## Tad CSW

jimbyjimb said:


> I have a round body.



Thank you Jim for the review! 

The A2 bi-pin socket is compatible with both new / round and old / 4-flats versions.
I am planning to change the 4.8V 1.3A to a 4.8V 1.2A bulb. The new 4.8V 1.2A bulb should have a higher efficiency. I will test the samples in a few days.


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## Tad CSW

Double Barrel said:


> This sounds promising!
> 
> Tad, please put me down for one, when and if these become available for purchase.
> 
> Looking forward to more updates



Thank you. 
The production of A2 sockets should be finished by June 10. And I think I can get these bulbs by the the same day from the bulb factory:
1) 3.7V 1.8A (the one just tested by Jim)
2) 3.7V 1.2A (new, longer battery runtime)
3) 4.8V 1.2A (new, replaced the old one tested by jim, brighter than the old one, longer life than 3.7V bulbs.)


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## The_Driver

How long will the 3.7V 1.8A bulbs last in the light?


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Great pics. I really like the 3.7 volt bulb. 

Can't wait to try out the E-series adapter with some of the bulb options. I'm excited about Tad's offerings. A very nice refresh for parts which have been very hard to come by to date.


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## m4a1usr

calipsoii said:


> This is a very interesting development; having a new readily-available source of both sockets and bulbs! jimbyjimb, do you have a newer, rounded 3-flats Aviator or one of the old Digital Plus Series 4-flats models? The bulb contact distance was slightly different between the two and it'd be interesting to know if it fits both.



Yeah I always wondered why no one came up with a small spring soldered to the center button to accommodate the slight variance? Seems like such a no brainer. I just cut down the outer contact ring on my LF bulbs which allows them to be used in both A2 variations. Time consuming but it makes them work!


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## StudFreeman

I'm super excited for all these new parts! Gonna get one for each A2 and (and hopefully E2E) 

Tad, do you think you could source a low-output A2 bulb? The A2 never had a LO, laser-focused lamp like the E2's MN02 vs. MN03 lamps. A 3.7V bulb with a tiny filament and medium output (~40 lumens OTF) would be awesome and (potentially more than) double runtime over an MA02.


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## archimedes

Have to agree that this is an exciting project ....


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## [email protected]

What an interesting development, I have read the entire thread and visited Tad's site but am unable to determine the dimensions of the bi-pin bulbs supported in these adapters, hence my question... are these bulbs the same dimensions as a Streamlight Strion bi-pin?


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## 1pt21

[email protected] said:


> What an interesting development, I have read the entire thread and visited Tad's site but am unable to determine the dimensions of the bi-pin bulbs supported in these adapters, hence my question... are these bulbs the same dimensions as a Streamlight Strion bi-pin?



Very good question! I had just assumed they were 

Luckily I have been able to get Streamlight bulbs into a few things that they don't _quite _fit into without issue. Actually it holds them in even tighter. The main ones that come to mind are the new mag bi-pin bulb holders, almost all of mine have a Strion/TL3 bulb stuffed into them and MiniMags (I believe I have a couple with Twin Task bulbs thrown in IIRC). Not one issue..

Still curious.....


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## MaxStatic

What he told me when I asked is that his bulbs are standard xenon t1 - 1/2 spec. Strions are pretty close to that but he mentioned he thought the streamlight bulbs had shorter filaments. So basically if you used his kit with a Strion bulb, you just don't seat it all the way. Otherwise you can buy bulbs from him for $2/per. Not a bad deal me thinks.

Excited to see more, this should pan out very interesting for us nerds.


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## Monocrom

Interested.


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## Tad CSW

My bulb has the same diameter (around 4.7mm +/- 0.5) and distance of the pins (2mm center to center) but the Strion bulb should have a shorter filament (from the base of envelope). The height of my bulb's filament is 8mm, so a Strion bulb's filament should be 1mm+ shorter than my bulb. I do not have a Strion bulb so please correct me if I am wrong. I suggest using my bulbs.


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## Tad CSW

I have a question for you guys. I just finished a prototype of E-series bi-pin socket and I tested it with some bulbs:

1) 3V 1.2A
2) 3.7V 1.2A
3) 3.7V 1.8A
4) 4.8V 1.2A
5) 6V 1.2A
6) 7.2V 1.2A

This is the bi-pin socket with 7.2V bulb.






With 2x fresh IMR 16340 (8.4V x 1.2A = 10W) it looks like 3 times brighter than a P60. My question is, will such a high-output bulb damage the light, especially the reflector in the long run? I mean the E-series seems not designed for a very high output bulb. It gets hot quickly. Did anyone use a 10W bulb in E-series?


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## MaxStatic

You bring up an interesting point Tad.

Speaking for myself, my goal with an E kit would to be to extend the life of a flashlight that is getting harder to source economical bulbs for. While my E2D, E2E, and E1E are far from the brightest light in the stable now a days, they still have an appeal which I don't take advantage of much as I'm down to the last lamp in each. Of course melting the reflector from extended runs at high heat probably wouldn't work out too well. I seem to remember Surefire warning about extended use on the bright bulbs, anyone else remember that? 

Something that provides a close to and or slight boost in performance while keeping the run time specs would be the ideal thing here, for me anyway. Others' motivations might be completely different. Once the kit arrives, I'll post some comparisons and thoughts for everybody else so they can make decisions based on what they want. I have a G2 laying around that I can also use to help compare. 

Get excited guys, this is a cool project that is close to showing off some pretty cool results. Cheers.


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## Tad CSW

StudFreeman said:


> Tad, do you think you could source a low-output A2 bulb? The A2 never had a LO, laser-focused lamp like the E2's MN02 vs. MN03 lamps. A 3.7V bulb with a tiny filament and medium output (~40 lumens OTF) would be awesome and (potentially more than) double runtime over an MA02.



Not sure but I will try to look for a low output 3.7V / 3.6V bulb for A2. 



MaxStatic said:


> You bring up an interesting point Tad.
> 
> Speaking for myself, my goal with an E kit would to be to extend the life of a flashlight that is getting harder to source economical bulbs for. While my E2D, E2E, and E1E are far from the brightest light in the stable now a days, they still have an appeal which I don't take advantage of much as I'm down to the last lamp in each. Of course melting the reflector from extended runs at high heat probably wouldn't work out too well. I seem to remember Surefire warning about extended use on the bright bulbs, anyone else remember that?
> 
> Something that provides a close to and or slight boost in performance while keeping the run time specs would be the ideal thing here, for me anyway. Others' motivations might be completely different. Once the kit arrives, I'll post some comparisons and thoughts for everybody else so they can make decisions based on what they want. I have a G2 laying around that I can also use to help compare.
> 
> Get excited guys, this is a cool project that is close to showing off some pretty cool results. Cheers.



Thanks for the opinion. I think I have to get some low output bulbs for these vintage lights.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Tad CSW said:


> With 2x fresh IMR 16340 (8.4V x 1.2A = 10W) it looks like 3 times brighter than a P60. My question is, will such a high-output bulb damage the light, especially the reflector in the long run? I mean the E-series seems not designed for a very high output bulb. It gets hot quickly. Did anyone use a 10W bulb in E-series?



Definitely - Lumens Factory has had the IMR-E2 for a long time now. It's a very high current bulb and produces a lot of heat but it's a fun bulb to put in such a small light. 

Being able to swap bulbs quite easily would make it a nice bulb to keep around for showing off here and there.


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## Bullzeyebill

Do the bi-pins from Tad come with pins cut to the best focal point for the A2?

Bill


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## StudFreeman

Thanks, Tad. I hope you find some 
Having options is always a great thing so I'm looking forward to seeing these coming to fruition.


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## balane

I placed my A2 adapter order this morning. I didn't choose my extra bulbs wisely and Tad quickly contacted me with a suggestion of change. For that I was grateful. He seems like a very nice man to deal with and I'm looking forward to getting some 3.7v 1.8a lamps in my A2! My order will ship on the 10th.


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## RWT1405

Tad CSW said:


> Thank you.
> The production of A2 sockets should be finished by June 10. And I think I can get these bulbs by the the same day from the bulb factory:
> 1) 3.7V 1.8A (the one just tested by Jim)
> 2) 3.7V 1.2A (new, longer battery runtime)
> 3) 4.8V 1.2A (new, replaced the old one tested by jim, brighter than the old one, longer life than 3.7V bulbs.)



BTW, welcome to CPF Tad! 

Thank you for offering what appears to be a great product and I wish you much success!


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## ma tumba

Speaking of A2 mods. I have all 3 options: stock SF lamp, the LF version and the FM Strion kit. Among them, I like the Strion kit the most for its cleaner beam pattern. HO-A2 is probably the worst. Therefore I am glad that I have the kit and I hope that the Tad's kit would also be a worthwhile addition, especially with the wide choice of bulbs that come with the adapter.

On the other hand, I am quite happy with the existing LF offerings for e2/e1. I think, I have tried all of them. For me, the only worthwhile addition would be a 10-15lm bulb for 3.7V. Something that does not exist at all at the moment. Also I might be interested in an adapter for FM1794 which are still available, but realistically, 20W is an overkill for an e2 body.


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## Tad CSW

RWT1405 said:


> BTW, welcome to CPF Tad!
> 
> Thank you for offering what appears to be a great product and I wish you much success!


Thank you RWT1405. I will do my best:twothumbs
Please let me know if you guys have any comments / ideas so I can improve my products.


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## Jim Bonney

Tad CSW said:


> Thank you RWT1405. I will do my best:twothumbs
> Please let me know if you guys have any comments / ideas so I can improve my products.



You're the man! Thanks for helping us keep our lights running!


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## bykfixer

Really, really, really not trying to make this about a Mag mod.

Just wanting to showcase to anybody who has any doubt about these products...


The G4 kit arrived already. 
(Ordered late 5/26 = 8 days to cross the globe)




Here's what you get




Spring and rod for 20+ watt setups plus..




Two bulbs and a top quality adapter




Perfect if you use those Magcharger size bulbs as well




And brief but very well written instructions complete with diagrams. 


So I say all that to showcase Mr. Tads got it going on. 
Thank you sir. 

Back to our thread... already in progress.


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## 1pt21

Indeed. Fantastic seller. Insanely quick shipping from overseas...

TAD is a blessing for something we've (I've) been waiting years for!

Can't wait for my A2 adapter to arrive, and hopefully soon to come E-Series adapter. PLUS *BULBS* offered and often included (never mind upgraded springs for mags as well).

TAD certainly does got it going on, and is taking waaaaay too much of my $$$


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## Bullzeyebill

Bullzeyebill said:


> Do the bi-pins from Tad come with pins cut to the best focal point for the A2?
> 
> Bill



Repeating my question. Also, since the A2 uses a buck/boost voltage regulator for constant brightness using the stock bulb, is the A2 running in regulation with the different voltage bulbs offered by Tad?

Bill


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Bill,

I would only assume that the bulbs will sit at the proper focal point. I'll let you know when my adapters come, hopefully within a week or so.

The A2 driver bulbs at 4volts. So the 3.7 volts bulbs will be driven a bit harder and the 4.8 bulbs will be under driven. Looking at the Willie Hunt LVR page it appears the original design spec using the standard FET supports up to 2 Amps output within spec. Would have to test the bulbs with a current meter to see what each one draws at 4volts.


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## StudFreeman

Bill,
The A2 regulation circuitry consists of what amounts to a variable PWM voltage regulator - one whose duty cycle gets closer to 100% (constant on) as battery voltage decreases toward the target bulb voltage (4V for the A2). This allows the RMS voltage across the bulb to remain constant as battery voltage dwindles.

Since the regulator is programmed to maintain 4V bulb voltage, regulation will depend only on whether the battery voltage sustains 4+ volts for whatever current is drawn by these lamps. Hope that helped.


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## Bullzeyebill

Thanks for the explanations. Good to know. I will probably run any bulbs with 2X 16340's. Not easy on the 3 5mm LED's, but have had no problems, over time with stock setup.

Bill


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## rrego

Hi Tad, just placed an order for the A2 adapter with option of one of each bulb. Can't wait to run them in my light.


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## Jim Bonney

Bill,

My bi-pin bulbs came cut with my adaptor. Tad specifically sent one uncut bulb. I'm not sure how he plans to ship regularly as I was sent one of two pre-production adaptors. I'm getting a production adaptor as well, so I'll update then.


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## rookhawk

Anything that will result in parts to keep my A2 aviator going when the incandescent bulb fails is a welcome product. I think I'd be interested in the future.


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## mjgsxr

Update. E series bulb holders are available for purchase now. They look good from the photos. Any one used a preproduction sample?

Looked again still preorder. I was getting a head of my self.


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## Jim Bonney

I can't say from experience yet but if they are as good as the A2 adaptor I'd say you'll be quite happy. I will be ordering one shortly.

Tad's the real deal. He makes good stuff and values our input.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

I received both of my drop-ins yesterday. The pre-prod E-series bi-pin and a production A2 bi-pin.

As other's have mentioned the A2 drop-in is very well made. I tried it out with the 3712, 3718 and 4812 bulbs. All three bulbs are very options for use in the A2. The 4812 is a nice lower level bulb that should get some extended runtime yet produces a decent amount of light. The 3718 bulb is the winner here with a very nice amount of output. I would say definitely brighter than a Strion kit drop-in (but then I noticed my Strion bulb was darkening a touch so I'll have to try this again with a fresh Strion bulb).

For those familiar with a Strion setup, the spot is pretty tight. The focus on all of Tad's bulbs produces a slightly different beam profile with a smaller hotspot and much more light in the corona. I haven't used it outside yet but I think I will be very pleased.

On to the E-series bi-pin. This drop-in is a welcome addition to the E-series line-up. Very well made. Solid brass build. Fits my E2e perfectly. The beam from the bulbs seems to produce a slightly wider spot than the stock E-series SF bulbs. A welcome change as I've always felt the stock E-series bulbs were a bit small spot and a then all flood. I won't try to compare any of the bulb offerings with stock bulb model numbers as I don't have enough stock options on hand to make a good comparison. The 7212 is a great bulb - not as bright as the IMR-E2 from LF - but plenty bright for a light the size of the E2e. 

For both the A2 and E bi-pin drop-ins I am very pleased with how the bulbs are held in place. They slide in pretty easily and then meet a slight resistance for the last mm or so of travel. The bulbs are held well centered by the collar on the drop-in. I don't see the bulb focus getting knocked around or any chance of the bulb falling out.

I didn't have time to take pictures last night but will try and post a few this weekend.


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## 1pt21

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> I received both of my drop-ins yesterday. The pre-prod E-series bi-pin and a production A2 bi-pin.
> 
> As other's have mentioned the A2 drop-in is very well made. I tried it out with the 3712, 3718 and 4812 bulbs. All three bulbs are very options for use in the A2. The 4812 is a nice lower level bulb that should get some extended runtime yet produces a decent amount of light. The 3718 bulb is the winner here with a very nice amount of output. I would say definitely brighter than a Strion kit drop-in (but then I noticed my Strion bulb was darkening a touch so I'll have to try this again with a fresh Strion bulb).
> 
> For those familiar with a Strion setup, the spot is pretty tight. The focus on all of Tad's bulbs produces a slightly different beam profile with a smaller hotspot and much more light in the corona. I haven't used it outside yet but I think I will be very pleased.
> 
> On to the E-series bi-pin. This drop-in is a welcome addition to the E-series line-up. Very well made. Solid brass build. Fits my E2e perfectly. The beam from the bulbs seems to produce a slightly wider spot than the stock E-series SF bulbs. A welcome change as I've always felt the stock E-series bulbs were a bit small spot and a then all flood. I won't try to compare any of the bulb offerings with stock bulb model numbers as I don't have enough stock options on hand to make a good comparison. The 7212 is a great bulb - not as bright as the IMR-E2 from LF - but plenty bright for a light the size of the E2e.
> 
> For both the A2 and E bi-pin drop-ins I am very pleased with how the bulbs are held in place. They slide in pretty easily and then meet a slight resistance for the last mm or so of travel. The bulbs are held well centered by the collar on the drop-in. I don't see the bulb focus getting knocked around or any chance of the bulb falling out.
> 
> I didn't have time to take pictures last night but will try and post a few this weekend.




Good stuff, thanks for the review!

E-Series adapter is next on my list. I will own at least one of each of TAD's adapters...


----------



## xdayv

Which of the A2 Bi-Pin Xenon bulbs will you recommend (on a four-flats A2 with 2xCR123 or 16650)? A3712, A3718 or A4812? TIA.


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

I guess it depends on what you're looking for. The beam profile appears about equal with all three bulbs.

Are you looking for longest battery life or brightest bulb?
The 4812 will give you the longest runtime with lower lumens and a slightly warmer output because of the underdriven bulb.
The 3812 is the middle ground between runtime and output.
The 3817 is the highest output and thus lowest runtime. 

I would want to say the 3812 is that happy middle ground, but I'll most likely be using the 3817 in mine. Best thing to do would be to order the A2 drop-in with the 3 bulb assortment. Try them all out and then get a 10 pack of the ones you like best.


----------



## xdayv

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> I guess it depends on what you're looking for. The beam profile appears about equal with all three bulbs.
> 
> Are you looking for longest battery life or brightest bulb?
> The 4812 will give you the longest runtime with lower lumens and a slightly warmer output because of the underdriven bulb.
> The 3812 is the middle ground between runtime and output.
> The 3817 is the highest output and thus lowest runtime.
> 
> I would want to say the 3812 is that happy middle ground, but I'll most likely be using the 3817 in mine. Best thing to do would be to order the A2 drop-in with the 3 bulb assortment. Try them all out and then get a 10 pack of the ones you like best.



Thanks SOYCD, very helpful info and advice. Cheers!


----------



## ma tumba

Could someone post side by side beamshots of 3817 vs either strion or stock a2 bulb, please?


----------



## Jim Bonney

I just received a production adaptor from Tad. It's even better than the prototype he sent me, which is also excellent. Shipping, packaging and quality are top notch. Thanks a lot TadCustoms!


----------



## balane

I received my production unit today as well and I must say, it's a spectacular piece. I couldn't be more happy with the setup and pleased to get my A2 back in service. Mine is a four flat older Aviator and it works fine in those if anybody was wondering.


----------



## Minimoog

I have just had the Tad G4 adapter through and am another very happy customer. There was a time about two years ago that I felt that incandescent was really dropping fast in favour but now I am pleased to see that it is going nowhere, and if anything gaining popularity. Tad really will do well I think and by offering a quality product which is genuinely useful has done us all a service. I'm going to order the A2 adaptor for sure.


----------



## MaxStatic

I received my purchased A2 kit and and test E kit for testing last week. I've been working a lot so I haven't had the chance to play with either extensively but the A2 has seen some decent use this last week.

The beam profile is tighter than stock lamp, I like this as I'm more into the throw than the spill anyway. It still spills a fair amount but up on a wall you will notice the Tad bulbs are tighter. I prefer the tint on the Tad bulbs a bit more and find my SF lamp a little too orange. Could be that my SF lamp is getting close to death but my point is the Tad bulbs have a nice warm incan tint but have a nice level of neutral white to them. The adapter itself appears very well made and looks to be able to last the lifetime of the light. I haven't gotten a real good idea of battery run time yet but imagine it's close to the stock lamp. As for heat I don't notice any difference but haven't measured it on extended run times yet.

Sometime this week, once work slows down, I will get some pics taken to show comparisons and the like.

The E kit I haven't really tested at all and plan to do a thorough review comparing several different bulbs that Tad provided for testing. More to follow on that.

For those on the fence with the A2 kit or with Tad in general, it's safe to say it's good kit, at a good price from a good vendor. He's had very quick and professional communication and his packaging and products show a nice attention to detail lacking in some alternatives. If you're like me and have been babying or safe queening your A2 kit due to lack of SF lamps, buy a Tad kit and a grip of bulbs and be done with it. Cheers.


----------



## m4a1usr

MaxStatic said:


> I received my purchased A2 kit and and test E kit for testing last week. I've been working a lot so I haven't had the chance to play with either extensively but the A2 has seen some decent use this last week.
> 
> The beam profile is tighter than stock lamp, I like this as I'm more into the throw than the spill anyway. It still spills a fair amount but up on a wall you will notice the Tad bulbs are tighter. I prefer the tint on the Tad bulbs a bit more and find my SF lamp a little too orange. Could be that my SF lamp is getting close to death but my point is the Tad bulbs have a nice warm incan tint but have a nice level of neutral white to them. The adapter itself appears very well made and looks to be able to last the lifetime of the light. I haven't gotten a real good idea of battery run time yet but imagine it's close to the stock lamp. As for heat I don't notice any difference but haven't measured it on extended run times yet.
> 
> Sometime this week, once work slows down, I will get some pics taken to show comparisons and the like.
> 
> The E kit I haven't really tested at all and plan to do a thorough review comparing several different bulbs that Tad provided for testing. More to follow on that.
> 
> For those on the fence with the A2 kit or with Tad in general, it's safe to say it's good kit, at a good price from a good vendor. He's had very quick and professional communication and his packaging and products show a nice attention to detail lacking in some alternatives. If you're like me and have been babying or safe queening your A2 kit due to lack of SF lamps, buy a Tad kit and a grip of bulbs and be done with it. Cheers.



I couldn't have said it better. To say TAD's A2 kit is nice is pretty much an understatement. I've had good luck switching back and forth from round bodies to flats so it's just peachy in my book. Haven't decided what bulb I like best of the 3 but I'm pretty much thinking the same as SOYCD. Now comes the decision "do I outfit each A2 I have" or just buy another 3 or 4 bi-pins with supplemental bulbs for the future? With my luck right shortly after buying them some guy will pop up with a warehouse full of surplus MA02 lamps on the bay for $5 each!


----------



## Bicycleflyer

Just ordered one for my A2. Has anyone tried this with a Calipsoii ring yet?


----------



## Jim Bonney

I recently ordered an E2 adapter from Tad. As a bonus, he threw in one of his newer A2 bi-pin adapters with a better adhesive between the insulator and adapter (I have a proto-model whereas what he is sending me is production) just because he's that kind of guy. I also recently broke my foot in the Ape Cave by Mt. St. Helens. Before that part I had ample opportunity to put my A2 with Tad's adapter and 3.7v 1.8a bulb to the test in a pitch-black environment. It performed brilliantly.

Thanks Tad! Looking forward to seeing what else might be up your sleeve!


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Bicycleflyer said:


> Just ordered one for my A2. Has anyone tried this with a Calipsoii ring yet?



Yes - works fine with the Calipsoii ring.


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Got an e-mail from Tad that he is sending me an updated copy of the E-series bi-pin with the updated high-temperature ceramic glue in it. To date I've had no issues with the proto E-series bi-pin, but I suppose long term heat could harden the glue and weaken it. My experience with the E-series bi-pin has been excellent so far. I've tried it with about 3-4 of the different bulbs available and the focus it superb with each one. I really like how the bi-pin adapter has a sleeve to guide the bulb in and keep it focused not only up and down but side-to-side as well. It's the side to side focus which can always cause weirdness with bi-pin incan bulbs when the filament it just a tiny bit off center and you go nuts trying to adjust it. 

Both the A2 and the E-series bi-pins are well thought out quality products. I commend the work put into the design and look forward to using these for a long time to come! I should certainly hope so as I purchased a 20-pack of the 3718 bulbs - I find them the all around best in both the A2 and the E2e with a 16650 cell.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> ... purchased a 20-pack of the 3718 bulbs - I find them the all around best in both the A2 and the E2e with a 16650 cell.



Got me confused. The A2 has a voltage regulated buck circuit. How does a 16650 work in regulation?

Bill


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

Bullzeyebill said:


> Got me confused. The A2 has a voltage regulated buck circuit. How does a 16650 work in regulation?
> 
> Bill



Sorry for the confusion. I run the A2 with a Calipsoii ring and 2 x 16340 IMR cells. The E2e I am running with a single 16650.
I tried the 16650 in the A2 a while back and it's not enough voltage to drive the light.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Thanks for the response. I have run the A2 with 2X16340's with no problem, and the LED's function ok though somewhat brighter. Have not failed.

Bill


----------



## Bicycleflyer

Just got my Tad adapter. Yep, works fine with a calipsoi ring. But I want to know, do we have to buy Tad's bulbs or will this work with any bi pin bulb. The whole idea for me was to be able to use bulbs that I can find locally. If I have to order bulbs from HK, then I might as well use the ones from lumens factory.


----------



## chillinn

Bicycleflyer said:


> Just got my Tad adapter. Yep, works fine with a calipsoi ring. But I want to know, do we have to buy Tad's bulbs or will this work with any bi pin bulb. The whole idea for me was to be able to use bulbs that I can find locally.



I can't answer that very well, or very confidently... but I hope someone else can... Though I would expect, absolutely, yes, if you match voltages and the lamp fits, why not? I'm curious if Strion lamps will fit in Tad's socket.



Bicycleflyer said:


> If I have to order bulbs from HK, then I might as well use the ones from lumens factory.



I think the Lumens Factory lamps are probably great quality, but they're ~$20/each. Not counting the cost of Tad's socket, the bipin lamps are $1.80/each. It would hurt to keep a couple extra Lumens Factory lamps in your drawer at the ready, when with the same capital you could have 20 extra bipin lamps from Tad's.


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

The Strion bulb does fit; however, the focus is not right. Tad's bulbs have just the right focus. 

Think about the cost factor on ordering drop-ins from LF. @$20 each it would cost you $400 to get 20 drop-ins. For $25 for the adapter and $36 for a 20-pack of bulbs you have just saved yourself over $325.

Tad's shipping is super quick. I have gotten all my packages here in the US in under a week.


----------



## Monocrom

Bit disappointing to hear the focus isn't quite right with Streamlight bulbs.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Does the Strion bulb sit too deep in the reflector?

Bill


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

I can't recall exactly, I think it sat too low. Aside from the height issue the other problem with the strion bulb is the side to side focus. Tad's bulbs fit perfectly centered in the holder so there is no fiddling to get the bulb centered. The strion is smaller and has some side to side movement.


----------



## scout24

Good info, thanks. Waiting on an adapter and bulbs... I realize these are a new product, but does anyone have some hours on bulbs yet? Thoughts with use?


----------



## Bicycleflyer

chillinn said:


> I think the Lumens Factory lamps are probably great quality, but they're ~$20/each. Not counting the cost of Tad's socket, the bipin lamps are $1.80/each. It would hurt to keep a couple extra Lumens Factory lamps in your drawer at the ready, when with the same capital you could have 20 extra bipin lamps from Tad's.



You make a good point, I may even order a handful of Tad's bulbs this week. But I am still going to look into using other bi pin bulbs that can be sourced locally.


----------



## ma tumba

After playing for couple days with various e1/e2 bulbs - from 50 to 350 lm I would definitely like to have a 15-20lm bulb. Something like 3.7V/0.6amp. I wonder if there is any technical difficulty about such a bulb?


----------



## Fuchshp

I have many hours on my tad cumstoms bulbs in my e2e. I really use them a lot. I'm still waiting for the first one to burn out.

I would be very, very interested in a 0.6A 3.7v bulb as well. Most of the time it's too much light.


----------



## xdayv

if loading a 16650 on an A2, what bulb will you recommend?


----------



## troller_cpf

Hello,
on the surefire A2, which is regulated at 4V if I remember correctly, does this mean that the two bulbs 3718 and 3712 will be driven at 4V as well? In this case the "power consumption" for the 3718 bulb will be 3.7x1.8 = 6.66 W or it will be 4x1.8 = 7.2 W?

Which battery configuration is most recommended on the A2, 2xCR123 or 1x16650?

I'm just trying to make up my mind for the perfect order  

thanks!!


----------



## Dan FO

I don't think I will ever sell my A2.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Dan FO said:


> I don't think I will ever sell my A2.



Me too; has to be one of the most sophisticated EDC size Incan lights. 

Bill


----------



## Bimmerboy

Dan FO said:


> I don't think I will ever sell my A2.


After finally handling one for the first time last week, I understand!

The absolutely perfect in-hand feel, the regulation, the two stage switch, the shape.... flashlight nirvana.

I definitely need one of these bad boys when finances allow.


----------



## Monocrom

They can have *my* A2 and all my spare SF bulbs for it when they pry them out of the cold dead hiding spot I keep them in. And no, I'm not being sarcastic.


----------



## Philosopher

i thought xenon were only HID, there is xenon incandescent??


----------



## fivemega

Philosopher said:


> i thought xenon were only HID, there is xenon incandescent??


*Xenon is name of the gas which can be used with HID or incandescent bulb.*


----------



## Jim Bonney

Everyone still loving their A2's with TadCustoms adapters? My old proto-equipped beater A2 is still running strong and bright on the first 3718 bulb I put in it back in June. The E series adapter is really nice too!


----------



## chillinn

jimbyjimb said:


> Everyone still loving their A2's with TadCustoms adapters? My old proto-equipped beater A2 is still running strong and bright on the first 3718 bulb I put in it back in June. The E series adapter is really nice too!



I have over 10 spares, yet I can't seem to kill my first Tad lamp. I knew it was going to last because it is underdriven, but it is getting ridiculous. A4812 is the Energizer Bunny of Tad's bipin lamps.


----------



## vicv

Has anyone noticed the bulb specs seems extremely close to bulbs used in lumens factory lamp assemblies. Lumens values a bit off but identical each tad bulb has an identical voltage and current equivalent at LF


----------



## Monocrom

jimbyjimb said:


> Everyone still loving their A2's with TadCustoms adapters? My old proto-equipped beater A2 is still running strong and bright on the first 3718 bulb I put in it back in June. The E series adapter is really nice too!



Hell, I still love mine. And it's stock.


----------



## ampdude

chillinn said:


> I have over 10 spares, yet I can't seem to kill my first Tad lamp. I knew it was going to last because it is underdriven, but it is getting ridiculous. A4812 is the Energizer Bunny of Tad's bipin lamps.



About how much time do you have on it, and have you noticed any bulb darkening over the unused ones?


----------



## chillinn

ampdude said:


> About how much time do you have on it, and have you noticed any bulb darkening over the unused ones?



Maybe 30 cell swaps. I can only guess. Mind you, I am used to 4 hour mag-lamps, and I am easily impressed. 

I have not noticed any deposits in the lamp interior, which one would expect because the lamp is under-driven. Apparently, the halogen cycle is satisfied.


----------



## ampdude

Thanks, I was thinking that might be the case. I didn't know these contained halogen, if so they would differ from Lumens Factory lamps that only contain xenon. Most Surefire lamps contain a xenon-halogen mixture which keeps them from darkening if run properly because of the xenon-halogen cycle.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Maybe Tad's will give us an answer re Xenon only, or Halogen added.

Bill


----------



## fivemega

ampdude said:


> Most Surefire lamps contain a xenon-halogen mixture


*Only high powered Surefire lamps contain xenon-halogen.
P60, P90 and E series are xenon only.*


----------



## ampdude

fivemega said:


> *Only high powered Surefire lamps contain xenon-halogen.
> P60, P90 and E series are xenon only.*



I'm not disputing your statement, but where does this come from? Surefire? I've read a lot of conflicting data over the years regarding their incan bulbs.


----------



## fivemega

ampdude said:


> I'm not disputing your statement, but where does this come from? Surefire? I've read a lot of conflicting data over the years regarding their incan bulbs.


*I got all these information from former Carley's engineer who designed most of their incan bulbs and I have seen truck load of D26 bulbs ready to go. 
BTW, he was designer of all my custom bulbs. Unfortunately, he is no longer with Carley.*


----------



## ampdude

fivemega said:


> *I got all these information from former Carley's engineer who designed most of their incan bulbs and I have seen truck load of D26 bulbs ready to go.
> BTW, he was designer of all my custom bulbs. Unfortunately, he is no longer with Carley.*



Is something wrong with the tungsten in lumens factory bulbs that they darken so quickly or are they vacuumed? The Streamlight bulbs claim to only contain halogen and I notice they darken a lot as well. What is so different about Surefire bulbs in any configuration where they don't darken? Mark at Lumens Factory has told me that their bulbs ONLY contain xenon. So why do they darken so quickly? The only Surefire bulb I've ever seen darken in my entire life is a pink based MN11 from the late 90's and I know they had problems with them back then. I've done a lot of research on this over the years and nothing I ever read about bulb composition here jives with physics. I've been told the MN02 does not have xenon, but the MN03 does have xenon-halogen. It's been said the P60 bulb and MN03 bulb are the same thing, but that doesn't seem true. What am I to believe anymore? I just go by personal experience these days.


----------



## chillinn

I need to mix up your post to attempt to make sense (for myself)





ampdude said:


> Mark at Lumens Factory has told me that their bulbs ONLY contain xenon. So why do they darken so quickly?



xenon only = No halogen cycle 

would be my first guess, without the halogen cycle, tungsten deposits anywhere but back on the filiment





ampdude said:


> The Streamlight bulbs claim to only contain halogen and I notice they darken a lot as well.



I want guess that unlike xenon, which is xenon and only xenon, halogen can be at least a few different things. Entirely conjecture on my part, but perhaps one halogen is not another, and there is an optimum halogen for the halogen cycle, which Streamlight doesn't use. If that is BS, maybe Streamlight underdrives their lamps, and this suppresses the halogen cycle.





ampdude said:


> What is so different about Surefire bulbs in any configuration where they don't darken?



I can't square this experience, especially with what fivemega says about SF lamps being all xenon, so I must repeat your question for him: fivemega, how do the xenon-only SF lamps stay clean with no halogen, thus no halogen cycle?


----------



## yellow

Sorry to chime in on the offtopic ...
6p/r, 8x, 9n darkened, too
And the secondary of 9n extremely quick (before ing quite quickly)
(That was b4 i started to put a resistor into the circuit even before putting a new light Assembly in)


----------



## bykfixer

chillinn said:


> I need to mix up your post to attempt to make sense (for myself)
> 
> xenon only = No halogen cycle
> 
> would be my first guess, without the halogen cycle, tungsten deposits anywhere but back on the filiment
> 
> I want guess that unlike xenon, which is xenon and only xenon, halogen can be at least a few different things. Entirely conjecture on my part, but perhaps one halogen is not another, and there is an optimum halogen for the halogen cycle, which Streamlight doesn't use. If that is BS, maybe Streamlight underdrives their lamps, and this suppresses the halogen cycle.
> 
> 
> I can't square this experience, especially with what fivemega says about SF lamps being all xenon, so I must repeat your question for him: fivemega, how do the xenon-only SF lamps stay clean with no halogen, thus no halogen cycle?



PK and his staff put a lot of engineering into those SF bulbs because of the darkening thing. 

Once he told me he hired a PHD grad from USC to do nothing but computer simulations to ensure consistancy and reliability went into everything they made. First to do that. 

He had light bulb specialists, coatings experts and all kinds of specialized dudes in lab coats shuffeling about the SureFire factory. 

When folks used to say "they're getting rich off government contracts"... yeah they had a big revenue stream but... they also had a big operating budget to ensure only the best left the factory. Soldiers and first responders lives depended on it. That gets forgotten in these mega cheap LED days. 

Specifically why they don't darken? Well it kinda came down to them being over driven enough where they went "poof" before they darkened is the best way I can describe it. But lots of secret stuff went into the filaments of that time.


----------



## fivemega

ampdude said:


> Is something wrong with the tungsten in lumens factory bulbs that they darken so quickly or are they vacuumed?


*There are manything to do with darkening bulbs. Size of envelope, coiled diameter and dimension of filament, designed and applied voltage and ...*


ampdude said:


> The Streamlight bulbs claim to only contain halogen and I notice they darken a lot as well.


*Some streamlights also are Xenon only (for example Strion, TL-2, TL-3 and...) but some Xenon Halogen (for example UltraStinger)*


ampdude said:


> What is so different about Surefire bulbs in any configuration where they don't darken?


*Some bulbs you can not overdrive to see how they will darken. For example how can you overdrive a P60 to see if they will darken or not? What battery chemistry and configuration can do so?*



ampdude said:


> Mark at Lumens Factory has told me that their bulbs ONLY contain xenon. So why do they darken so quickly?


*That's true. Mark told me they don't make Halogen.*


ampdude said:


> The only Surefire bulb I've ever seen darken in my entire life is a pink based MN11 from the late 90's and I know they had problems with them back then. I've done a lot of research on this over the years and nothing I ever read about bulb composition here jives with physics. I've been told the MN02 does not have xenon, but the MN03 does have xenon-halogen. It's been said the P60 bulb and MN03 bulb are the same thing, but that doesn't seem true. What am I to believe anymore? I just go by personal experience these days.


*Again, there are many things we don't look closely to physical shape of bulbs (from different companies) and manufacturer detailed specs.
Lastly, many of us (flashaholics) drive the bulb with different chemistry battery which are not designed for.
When you drive MN11 with pair of 18650, obviously forwarded voltage is higher than 3x123 Primary and can't expect factory claimed bulb life.*


chillinn said:


> I can't square this experience, especially with what fivemega says about SF lamps being all xenon


*Please see post #112
I clearly said some $urefire bulbs are Xenon Halogen and some are Xenon only.
Streamlights also have some Xenon Halogen and some Xenon only.
LF does NOT have Halogen.
If you pay closer look, you will see shorter bulb life of LF compare to $urefire and Streamlight which is trade off for output.*


----------



## Bimmerboy

As always, Fivemega's posts are a treasure trove of info, set to applied logic. :thumbsup:


----------



## chillinn

fivemega said:


> *some $urefire bulbs are Xenon Halogen and some are Xenon only....*



fivemega, 
with respect, my question is still hanging... excuse my attempt to focus down to it, and understand it may be based on conjecture... please bear with me, I had only one question, and I may have legitimately begged the question (i.e. formed the fallacy _principio principii_ based on ampdude's generalization) 



fivemega said:


> *Only high powered Surefire lamps contain xenon-halogen.
> P60, P90 and E series are xenon only.*



Understood.




ampdude said:


> What is so different about Surefire bulbs in *any configuration* where *they don't darken?*



Here's what may be conjecture, and/or generalization, which I'm accepting as fact (is it?) to ask my question:

(and I should have added the first time,) "ignoring the high power Surefire lamps that use xenon-halogen,"


chillinn said:


> how do the xenon-only SF lamps stay clean with no halogen, thus no halogen cycle?



^---- forget the xenon-halogen Surefire lamps. Do the xenon-only non-high power Surefire lamps not darken, and if not, how do they accomplish that when other brands' xenon-only lamps darken (according to ampdude)?

You very nicely outline and explain why lamps darken in your last post. The suggestions there may very well be part of the answer to my question, which, again, is,

"Why _don't_ SF xenon-only lamps darken? " -- ignoring the ones with halogen, as the halogen cycle is probably a good reason why the xenon-halogen SF lamps don't darken. What's up with the SF xenon-only lamps? Is ampdude's statement too general, inaccurate, wishful thinking, or is he just really lucky? Or do SF xenon-only lamps indeed resist darkening better than other branded lamps? IF so, how might they accomplish that? For the same reasons other lamps darken, i.e. coil tightness, bulb shape, etc., Surefire xenon-only lamps (also) do not ?

Sorry for the redundency, risking it to try to be clear to the max. 

You can just say "the xenon-only Surefire lamps do exhibit darkening" if that is true... idky I'm making this so hard. SORRY. THANK YOU!


----------



## vicv

I haven't had any surefire or LF or DX lamp assemblies darken. An eo9 died much too early but that's it.


----------



## Minimoog

My standard A2 bulb has a little darkening, same with my M3 bulb - so SF lamps are not immune from this.


----------



## m4a1usr

Hmmm.....? Not sure if it's appropriate to post this here since it's of little relevance to the topic. However it does answer some of the questions being recently posted AND it's a good read if nothing else.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ogen-process-filament-temp-and-envelope-glass


----------



## fivemega

chillinn said:


> "Why _don't_ SF xenon-only lamps darken?



*Answer of your question is on post #119 but I will explain more.
For reliability purpose, $urefire Xenon lamps are designed with longer life. So bulbs run more relax. (Military requirement)
For brightnes purpose, LF Xenon lamps are designed with shorter life. So bulbs run under stress. (For average people)
It is obvious that LF bulbs darken quickly compare to $urefire.
According to this some LF bulbs are designed for 15~20 hours life but $urefire bulbs are designed for 40~50 hours life.
So, LF bulbs are driven hard at spec compare to $urefire driven at spec.
Please keep it in mind that we assume all bulbs are running at spec voltage.*




chillinn said:


> how do the xenon-only SF lamps stay clean with no halogen, thus no halogen cycle?


*If you drive them at the voltage that calculated bulb life gets to 15 hours, they will also darken quickly.
Please see link in post #124. Do you think any of those bulb would look like these if driven at spec? 
Again, the harder you drive the bulb, faster it will darken.*



Ampidude said:


> What is so different about Surefire bulbs in any configuration where they don't darken?


*Difference is calculated bulb life at specified voltage.*


----------



## chillinn

fivemega said:


> *...$urefire Xenon lamps are designed with longer life. So bulbs run more relax. (Military requirement)...
> ...$urefire bulbs are designed for 40~50 hours life.
> ...Please keep it in mind that we assume all bulbs are running at spec voltage.*



Gotcha. There's no mystery as I was hoping (as for some industrial secret to be revealed), in that lamps specifically designed, manufactured and tightly quality controlled to perform better in fact perform better for that very reason. ><


----------



## mcm308

So a single 16650 cell is a no go in the A2?


----------



## staticx57

I use a 16650 in my rounded A2. That same cell does not fit in a 4 flats A2. It is a tight fit in the former.

That being said, the Incan will run at a reduced output just like had it been in a P60. The LEDs light as well.


----------



## mcm308

staticx57 said:


> I use a 16650 in my rounded A2. That same cell does not fit in a 4 flats A2. It is a tight fit in the former.
> 
> That being said, the Incan will run at a reduced output just like had it been in a P60. The LEDs light as well.


Excellent, whats the issue with the 4 flat? Too long? What bulb are you running and how is the runtime? I guess I need to find a round body! [emoji12] 

I ordered a 16650 just for A2 duty with a tad socket but then read it wouldn't work because of the A2 4V regulated circuit..hence why I asked.


----------



## staticx57

The actual protected cell Keeppower 16650 2500mAh is too wide in the 4 flats version. I run it with the Tad customs and have not tested the runtime.
Right, it does not run at regulated output. It runs in reduced output.


----------



## mcm308

staticx57 said:


> The actual protected cell Keeppower 16650 2500mAh is too wide in the 4 flats version. I run it with the Tad customs and have not tested the runtime.
> Right, it does not run at regulated output. It runs in reduced output.


That's the battery I have. As long as it runs..
Thanks


----------



## Bullzeyebill

> Or do SF xenon-only lamps indeed resist darkening better than other branded lamps? IF so, how might they accomplish that? For the same reasons other lamps darken, i.e. coil tightness, bulb shape, etc., Surefire xenon-only lamps (also) do not ?



An answer to this question. While cleaning out one of my drawers I found a Surefire manual hi-lighting the C2/C3 flashlights. On page 9 under heading Tungston Filaments With Xenon/Halogen Gas. "To achieve maximum output, Surefire lamps feature a tungsten in a high pressure xenon/halogen gas atmosphere."

Bill


----------



## ampdude

mcm308 said:


> Excellent, whats the issue with the 4 flat? Too long? What bulb are you running and how is the runtime? I guess I need to find a round body! [emoji12]
> 
> I ordered a 16650 just for A2 duty with a tad socket but then read it wouldn't work because of the A2 4V regulated circuit..hence why I asked.



The 4 flats A2's have tighter internal diameter specs. Most RCR123A's will not fit in them, especially protected cells. I have some IMR's that just barely fit in a round body model of mine. I remember years ago I used to have a round body A2 that could just barely fit protected AW RCR123A's if I peeled the stickers and pushed them in there. The shrink wrap got scarred, but stayed intact. The batteries did not come back out easily.


----------



## fivemega

mcm308 said:


> So a single 16650 cell is a no go in the A2?



*A2 doesn't work at all with voltage less than 4 volt. Each depleted primary 123 has about 2 volts which is consider time for replace.
I have tested with fully recharged protected 14650. It works few minutes and when voltage (under load) drops to 4 or less, circuit of A2 shuts down the light.
So even if 16650 would fit, wouldn't work properly. Unprotected cells that are recharged over 4.2 volt like 4.35, will work slightly longer but not practical.
My protected Keeppower 16650 is too wide to fit in 3 flat A2.*


----------



## bykfixer

How are you guys liking those bi-pin bulbs?

Just got an A2 and of course a stock of replacement bulbs is in order.


----------



## 1pt21

1pt21 said:


> Good stuff, thanks for the review!
> 
> E-Series adapter is next on my list. I will own at least one of each of TAD's adapters...



Well here I am juuust over a year later, I can can safely say that I now own at LEAST 3 of every available adapter and tons of bulbs from TAD..... :shakehead

Hopefully that statement alone will answer your question above Byk. BTW: I think I'm the only one that decided to call you "Byk" instead of "Mr Fixer", well I'm standing by my decision 

And thanks a TON guys, I'm now back on TAD's site looking to place another (unnecessary) order. I honestly was just so scarred by the sudden discontinuation of classic FM products that I STILL get that "gotta grab em while you can!" urge... Yeah, that's definitely it...................


----------



## bykfixer

My mom was always called "Mrs" at her work and she quipped "just once I wish someone would call me by my first name"... so in memory of my mom, yeah Byk will do nicely. 

The A2's got shelved while my quest for California Cop Lights of the 70's continues. But I want to try the 80 lumen and the 140(?) lumen TAD bulbs in my 4 flats.


----------



## 1pt21

bykfixer said:


> My mom was always called "Mrs" at her work and she quipped "just once I wish someone would call me by my first name"... so in memory of my mom, yeah Byk will do nicely.
> 
> The A2's got shelved while my quest for California Cop Lights of the 70's continues. But I want to try the 80 lumen and the 140(?) lumen TAD bulbs in my 4 flats.



Ironically enough, all of my 4-Flats are shelved (AKA buried deep in the confines of my home) yet all of my round bodies have been modded with rings, bi-pin adapters, tailcap shrouds, etc...

Hey, you keep on doing what your doing buddy!! :candle:


----------



## teak

Let's revamp this thread. How's everyone's tads and bulbs holding up. I've been running the 3718 on imr's in all my a2s. Recently got a round body y/g from Kentucky mike that I have been carrying everyday. Same 3718 and imr's. Love the y/g leds. Got another koala ring coming as well.


----------



## 1pt21

teak said:


> Let's revamp this thread. How's everyone's tads and bulbs holding up. I've been running the 3718 on imr's in all my a2s. Recently got a round body y/g from Kentucky mike that I have been carrying everyday. Same 3718 and imr's. Love the y/g leds. Got another koala ring coming as well.



All going fine here, even still on original bulbs (maybe I shouldn't have ordered so many backups??).. 

Damn Koala is still making rings?!? May have to look into that...


----------



## teak

1pt21 said:


> All going fine here, even still on original bulbs (maybe I shouldn't have ordered so many backups??)..
> 
> Damn Koala is still making rings?!? May have to look into that...


Ha! Yes, well it's better to have all those extras. I have a bunch as well of all flavors but I use the 3718. It's not a bunch brighter then the 3712 but it has a nice edge over it, plus I don't notice any difference in runtime. I charge the imr's every week, even if they don't really need it. I use the leds more anyway. One note, I don't notice any brightness increase with IMRs over primaries in the Y/G model. Exact same from what I can tell. I find the Y/G to be the most useful over the other leds, next to Amber. 

Yep, koala is still making the onion rings.


----------



## 1pt21

teak said:


> I have a bunch as well of all flavors but I use the 3718. I charge the imr's every week, even if they don't really need it. I use the leds more anyway. One note, I don't notice any brightness increase with IMRs over primaries in the Y/G model.
> 
> Yep, koala is still making the onion rings.



Damn, I've been using the 3.0v Tenergy rechargeables (whatever chemistry those are) for YEARS because of the fear that was instilled in me WAAAY back when (driver damage). Had no idea I could run 3.7/4.2's without harm to the driver, never mind IMR's... :shrug:

And sweet, thanks for the info on the Koala Rings. Don't have a need for one at the moment as I'm running custom rings in all of my A2's (can't remember the sellers name from a few years back, but I bought many haha).. Knowing me, now that I have this knowledge, I'll be contacting Koala. So many sweet custom incan offerings that I used used to be able to get (e.g. FiveMega) fell off the radar so quickly that I hop on the custom stuff ASAP and don't sleep on them anymore. Hence the reason that I own multiple of every single one of TAD's adapters, with a plethora of his bulbs 

Thanks again for the info!!!


----------



## teak

1pt21 said:


> Damn, I've been using the 3.0v Tenergy rechargeables (whatever chemistry those are) for YEARS because of the fear that was instilled in me WAAAY back when (driver damage). Had no idea I could run 3.7/4.2's without harm to the driver, never mind IMR's... :shrug:
> 
> And sweet, thanks for the info on the Koala Rings. Don't have a need for one at the moment as I'm running custom rings in all of my A2's (can't remember the sellers name from a few years back, but I bought many haha).. Knowing me, now that I have this knowledge, I'll be contacting Koala. So many sweet custom incan offerings that I used used to be able to get (e.g. FiveMega) fell off the radar so quickly that I hop on the custom stuff ASAP and don't sleep on them anymore. Hence the reason that I own multiple of every single one of TAD's adapters, with a plethora of his bulbs
> 
> Thanks again for the info!!!


Yes, all I've ever used was IMR 's in my A2s. AW. It's been info forever that the driver in an a2 can handle 9 volts. I've only read one person burning out the driver. So many have been using IMRs over the years. [emoji12]


----------



## archimedes

It's the LEDs in the stock ring that get overdriven, I believe. And the Calipsoii Ring corrects this potential issue, IIRC ....


----------



## teak

archimedes said:


> It's the LEDs in the stock ring that get overdriven, I believe. And the Calipsoii Ring corrects this potential issue, IIRC ....


The factory led ring in my y/g don't seem to be overdriven. No perceivable notice by the naked eye anyway.


----------



## archimedes

teak said:


> The factory led ring in my y/g don't seem to be overdriven. No perceivable notice by the naked eye anyway.


I'll post some links ...

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?95230-warning-about-overdriven-LED-s-in-the-A2

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?179554-LiFePO4-and-the-A2-Aviator

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...cussion-thread-A2-dumb-LED-rings-(Onion-Ring)

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...flashlights!&p=2535100&viewfull=1#post2535100


----------



## teak

I've read all that stuff, however from what I just read, the overdrive issue is when high is used. That make sense. Either way I'll continue with the imr's like I have for 5+ years in my other a2s 😁


----------



## archimedes

As you wish, of course, although others may not want to knowingly do so ... especially since there are numerous solutions available which avoid those issues entirely :shrug:


----------



## teak

archimedes said:


> As you wish, of course, although others may not want to knowingly do so ... especially since there are numerous solutions available which avoid those issues entirely :shrug:


Oh I have koala ring in transit for this y/g. Just awaiting it's arrival.


----------



## calipsoii

teak said:


> I've read all that stuff, however from what I just read, the overdrive issue is when high is used. That make sense. Either way I'll continue with the imr's like I have for 5+ years in my other a2s 



The stock A2 ring is powered directly off the battery stack. Current-limiting is handled via a single resistor to each 5mm LED. Voltage to the ring doesn't change whether the bulb is lit or not. Increasing the voltage by changing the battery chemistry increases current through each LED.

An example using Y/G LED's with a generous voltage droop of 3.9V (instead of 4.2V fresh off the charger):

*Chemistry**Vbatt**Vf**Iled**Rled**Drive %*2x CR1236V2.1V25mA(6V - 2.1V)/0.025A = 156 ohm0.025/0.025*100 = 100%2x IMR163407.8V2.1V7.8V/156 = *50mA*156 ohm0.050/0.025*100 = *200%*

At 200% overdrive the LED may not instantly poof. It's likely the emitter will age at a greatly increased rate and output capacity will decrease faster. So instead of 10,000h of guaranteed output life you may get 2,500h or 1,000h.

Each aftermarket A2 ring behaved differently with different voltages:

*Aviatrix*: same as stock - resistors need changed if LED Vf changed
*calipsoii*: voltage regulated - Vbatt clipped to 5V and Iled regulated via resistor
*Onion rings*: current regulated - Iled set via trimpot

koala's option is the most technically advanced and covers all batteries and LED forward voltages. archimedes is correct that other users may not be comfortable shortening the life on their (now-discontinued) torch and may want to seek an aftermarket ring to use with 8.4V rechargeables.

Hope that helps!


----------



## archimedes

Thanks @calipsoii for chiming in here ... your technical expertise is much appreciated [emoji106]


----------



## teak

calipsoii said:


> The stock A2 ring is powered directly off the battery stack. Current-limiting is handled via a single resistor to each 5mm LED. Voltage to the ring doesn't change whether the bulb is lit or not. Increasing the voltage by changing the battery chemistry increases current through each LED.
> 
> An example using Y/G LED's with a generous voltage droop of 3.9V (instead of 4.2V fresh off the charger):
> 
> *Chemistry**Vbatt**Vf**Iled**Rled**Drive %*2x CR1236V2.1V25mA(6V - 2.1V)/0.025A = 156 ohm0.025/0.025*100 = 100%2x IMR163407.8V2.1V7.8V/156 = *50mA*156 ohm0.050/0.025*100 = *200%*
> 
> At 200% overdrive the LED may not instantly poof. It's likely the emitter will age at a greatly increased rate and output capacity will decrease faster. So instead of 10,000h of guaranteed output life you may get 2,500h or 1,000h.
> 
> Each aftermarket A2 ring behaved differently with different voltages:
> 
> *Aviatrix*: same as stock - resistors need changed if LED Vf changed
> *calipsoii*: voltage regulated - Vbatt clipped to 5V and Iled regulated via resistor
> *Onion rings*: current regulated - Iled set via trimpot
> 
> koala's option is the most technically advanced and covers all batteries and LED forward voltages. archimedes is correct that other users may not be comfortable shortening the life on their (now-discontinued) torch and may want to seek an aftermarket ring to use with 8.4V rechargeables.
> 
> Hope that helps!


Yes, thanks for breaking that down. I can see why some would not want to overdrive the leds for sure. I wasn't questioning that at all. I figured most people knew by now. I didn't want to use imr's in my a2s for a long time being afraid of burning the driver. Once that's done it's all over, then we have to move on to something else. [emoji38]


----------



## ma tumba

calipsoii said:


> The stock A2 ring is powered directly off the battery stack. Current-limiting is handled via a single resistor to each 5mm LED. Voltage to the ring doesn't change whether the bulb is lit or not. Increasing the voltage by changing the battery chemistry increases current through each LED.
> 
> An example using Y/G LED's with a generous voltage droop of 3.9V (instead of 4.2V fresh off the charger):
> 
> *Chemistry**Vbatt**Vf**Iled**Rled**Drive %*2x CR1236V2.1V25mA(6V - 2.1V)/0.025A = 156 ohm0.025/0.025*100 = 100%2x IMR163407.8V2.1V7.8V/156 = *50mA*156 ohm0.050/0.025*100 = *200%*
> 
> At 200% overdrive the LED may not instantly poof. It's likely the emitter will age at a greatly increased rate and output capacity will decrease faster. So instead of 10,000h of guaranteed output life you may get 2,500h or 1,000h.
> 
> Each aftermarket A2 ring behaved differently with different voltages:
> 
> *Aviatrix*: same as stock - resistors need changed if LED Vf changed
> *calipsoii*: voltage regulated - Vbatt clipped to 5V and Iled regulated via resistor
> *Onion rings*: current regulated - Iled set via trimpot
> 
> koala's option is the most technically advanced and covers all batteries and LED forward voltages. archimedes is correct that other users may not be comfortable shortening the life on their (now-discontinued) torch and may want to seek an aftermarket ring to use with 8.4V rechargeables.
> 
> Hope that helps!


While Koala rings may have the technical advantage, a calipsoii multimode ring is in entirely different league as far as versatiliy is concerned. For example, I installed 2x 3200K high cri yuji leds and 1x 5600 high cri yuji led and now suddenly I have a truly universal flashlight. I have a sublumen incand-like (3200K) nightstand mode, a general purpose ~30lm 4000K light and a 10lm high noon 5600K high cri light for critical color inspection tasks. I don't think any flashlight, including TriV, could come close to this. And of course that great regulated incand bulb still works great for up to 100 yards at night


----------



## xdayv

Hey guys... so are you able to run safely with 1x16650 or 2x16340 on a TAD customs bulb? If yes; what specific TAD bulb do you recommend?


----------



## WarriorOfLight

The Tad Bulds will be used at ~4V. The A2 is a regulated incan light. The only thing I do not know is if the flashlight driver is 8,4V capable. I use my A2 only with CR123s.


----------



## teak

WarriorOfLight said:


> The Tad Bulds will be used at ~4V. The A2 is a regulated incan light. The only thing I do not know is if the flashlight driver is 8,4V capable. I use my A2 only with CR123s.


Many have successfully used 16340s for years. The factory ring will overdrive the leds for sure so use at your own risk. 

All 3 of the tads bubs work great in the a2. 4812, 3712 and 3718. 

4812 is lower output longer runtime. 3712 is comparable to factory ma02 and 3718 is a tad brighter. Get the bipin adaptor and select the 3 bulb configuration, then you can choose which you prefer.


----------



## bykfixer

I just acquired an A2 beater so it's time to choose...
Not adapter or not as that is a given... but which bulb.
Leaning heavily towards the 3712 in bulk. Idea being buy the 10 pack with my order. Nostalgia is the idea and 80 lumens is plenty. 

FYI, According to the site: the 4812 does 50 under-driven lumens in an A2, 3712 is 80 and the 3718 is about 140 lumens.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

WarriorOfLight said:


> TThe only thing I do not know is if the flashlight driver is 8,4V capable. I use my A2 only with CR123s.



I've use my A2 with 2X 16340's, and stock lamp, off and on for years. No apparent wear on main bulb or LED's.

Bill


----------



## Lumen83

bykfixer said:


> I just acquired an A2 beater so it's time to choose...
> Not adapter or not as that is a given... but which bulb.
> Leaning heavily towards the 3712 in bulk. Idea being buy the 10 pack with my order. Nostalgia is the idea and 80 lumens is plenty.
> 
> FYI, According to the site: the 4812 does 50 under-driven lumens in an A2, 3712 is 80 and the 3718 is about 140 lumens.



I have both the 3712 and the 3718. I honestly can't tell the difference. They both seem as bright and as white. I have a 4 flats aviator and a round version. Don't know if there is any difference. But the 18 is in the 4 flats and the 12 is in the round one. And, they both appear exactly the same to me. I'd go with the 3712 for the longer run times since they seem so close.


----------



## bykfixer

I went with the 3712.


----------



## ma tumba

I have: 3712, 3718, strion/fivemega, lumensfactory, stock bulbs. Having tried all of them I use now only the 3718. Why? While my a2 is my go to light, I have found that 99% of the time I use the low beam, so I just like the brightest possible option for the high one just in those rare cases when I need that reach


----------



## teak

I have been going back and forth with my Y/G. I have an onion ring with many leds. I have a tads as well and here is what I tend to use the most. Factory Y/G ring and the tads 4812 bulb. I have found that the Y/G leds are a great low output navigating and reading leds. Then the low output 4812 is great for general use and long runtime on primaries. 

Just my opinion on it since I feel the A2 isnt a burner anyway if you want some sort of runtime.


----------



## bykfixer

ma tumba said:


> I have: 3712, 3718, strion/fivemega, lumensfactory, stock bulbs. Having tried all of them I use now only the 3718. Why? While my a2 is my go to light, I have found that 99% of the time I use the low beam, so I just like the brightest possible option for the high one just in those rare cases when I need that reach



Yeah, I like the option of switching to high beam if needed. Like my automobiles, I rarely use it but like having that option. I figure the 3712 ought to do the trick, but will probably end up with some 18's sooner or later.

Why? Because flashaholic....


----------



## night.hoodie

I have discovered, personally and not scientifically, that 12-15 incan lumens is the right amount to see what you need to most of the time without killing dark-adapted vision, and though I am stunned at how bright Tad's lamps are with IMR-3.6v, this chemistry and lamp pairing obliterates dark-adapted vision instantly by bouncing off of anything at any distance less than about 15ft. Bright light, but after blinding, then see nothin for some time. My A2 is too bright even with the underdriven 4812. I use the IMR 3.6v during the day in e1e and early evening before eyes adjust, but afterwards, I've started using 3v (CR123A & 2xAA) and ~12lm exclusively, except for rarer occasion with a single 1.2v AA (Malkoff) for almost a lumen with 3712.


----------



## bykfixer

Welp,

My 3712's _*finally*_ arrived. Note self, don't order stuff from Hong Kong at Christmas. Delivery time was not unusual in that it took about 3 weeks. But Tads stuff usually arrives in less than 2 weeks when ordered in non holiday season(s). 
My previous Tad's was for Maglite use and that's an apples to oranges thing. This is my first SureFire setup. And we all know that PK built some mighty fine, hard to duplicate light bulb modules. But Tad has done well here.

These are my first A2 bulbs and fastener. Nothing was surprising about how well made the fastener is. Typical Tad's job well done there. But the bulbs are impressive to say the least. And replaceable at a small cost is a boon for certain. Pins are cut to just the right length, are rigid enough to goof a little while you learn how to cinch them into the module and the beam was amazingly clean. 
Yeah I could be picky there vs a SureFire oem, but they're 2 bux each. Any defects have to be sought out and frankly don't affect anything that matters when lighting up the world I live in. Side by side with a factory bulb was a charm. The 3712 is a bit brighter in the tighter spot yet not so much that one would tell the difference except in throw. But even that is subjective imo. The SureFire wins the throw but barely. 

I'm impressed with the 3712's. Makes my A2 more fun to use as the thought of a $35 light bulb popping is now replaced by a relaxed thought of "pffft, I got 10 more for $20". Plus the light still appears to be stock in both form and feature. Yay!! Since I use my A2 for low light mainly, the 3712 may outlive me. 

Definitely going to scarf up some Tad's E size modules next. I really like the Lumens Factory bulbs, but again at $2 each it's just more relaxing to use an old incan knowing if the bulb blows it costs less than a pair of primaries to get it going again.


----------



## DayofReckoning

Has anyone confirmed, or can take a guess, at what the runtime would be on the A4812 lamp compared to the factory MA02 lamp when running CR123 primaries? Tads website only says "Underdrive with A2 approx 50 lumens"


----------



## konifans

DayofReckoning said:


> Has anyone confirmed, or can take a guess, at what the runtime would be on the A4812 lamp compared to the factory MA02 lamp when running CR123 primaries? Tads website only says "Underdrive with A2 approx 50 lumens"


The A4812 is a 1.2A bulb but when it is under drive at 4V in the Surefire A2 I think it is 1.0A? And the CR123A is about 1600mah? So it is more than 90 minutes.


----------



## DayofReckoning

Got a response back from Tad Customs. Looks like the A4812 will run around 1.5 hours on primaries, just like Konifans said. I like long runtimes over sheer output so I'm going to give the A4812 a try.


----------



## novice

Has anyone who has both a Tad's bi-pin adapter, and a Fivemega bi-pin adapter, compared the Tad's 3712 with a Streamlight _stinger_ bulb, for both brightness and battery runtime? Most people with the FM adapter probably use the strion bulb, but I have read that the stinger bulb is underdriven, and has a longer service life overall, than the strion. I'm wondering how the stinger might compare in these particulars to the 3712.


----------



## soldonsurefire

I've read all pages of this thread and I can't state that I understand all of what was written.I do believe I've understood the gist of what was posted.

I have an old 4 flats Aviator with white led's and it has worked well.When I had an opportunity to buy a NIB A2 led Aviator I took advantage of it.

I never thought about modifying a light for better performance.I solve any deficiencies by buying a newer and better light.LOL


----------



## DayofReckoning

soldonsurefire said:


> I've read all pages of this thread and I can't state that I understand all of what was written.I do believe I've understood the gist of what was posted.
> 
> I have an old 4 flats Aviator with white led's and it has worked well.When I had an opportunity to buy a NIB A2 led Aviator I took advantage of it.
> 
> I never thought about modifying a light for better performance.I solve any deficiencies by buying a newer and better light.LOL



The A2 LED Aviator is hardly a worthy successor to the original A2 Aviator. On the contrary, I personally consider it to be an inferior flashlight to the A2 Incandescent. 

The A2 Incandescent has a useful combination of throw and flood, whereas the A2 LED Aviator has a combination of flood/flood. The design of the A2 LED Aviator makes no sense, and I don't know why Surefire choose that route.

Furthermore, the SSC P4 in the LED Aviator usually puts out a nasty blue tint, whereas the tint from the A2 Incandescent is a beautiful 3300K 100 CRI. Absolutely no comparison.

The truth is the A2 LED Aviator was a mediocre light the day it was released, and has faded to near non-existence in the history books as far as us true flashaholics are concerned. 

The A2 Aviator on the other hand, is a masterpiece of technological innovation, it's legacy is legendary and unsurpassed, and in a world of countless different models of flashlights, it remains unique and special compared to everything else. 

The Tads customs bi-pin adapter is not really about solving any deficiencies, but more about having replacement lamps available, as the factory MA02 LA's are long discontinued. The plus side is it makes this wonderful flashlight even better.​


----------



## rrego

Another A2 incan fan here. I have two A2s running Tad drop-ins, an E2 and a M3 running Tad drop-ins.

Got six A2s, four Four Flats and two Round body models (two yellow/greens, three whites, one green LEDs).

I have all three versions of the bulbs, but lately running the 4812 bulbs for the longer runtime (I'm assuming due to power consumption).

On the same 4812 bulb, my round body A2 appears brighter than the four flats and I think it's due to the AR lens. I believe all my four flats are non-AR lenses while the rounds are AR lenses.

I run AW 16340s in mine without problem, other than low capacity.

I did kill my first 3712 bulb I ran, but that was due to running it as long as the batteries would run for. Now with the 4812 bulbs, I'm doing more short burst than as long as the batteries will go for.

I have basically transitioned my general lighting to incans and only use my LEDs when I need runtime. I LOVE the satisfaction of my incan lights running primaries or Li-Ion :^)


----------



## rrego

I just rechecked my four Four Flats and three of them look like uncoated glass to me and only one appears to have some slight AR coating, but it might just be the angle that I'm looking at it or the rooms surroundings influencing what I see on the lens.

Were any Four Flats versions ever AR coated?


----------



## DayofReckoning

Glad to hear from another A2 fan. 

I'm not sure when Surefire started using AR coatings on the A2's glass. I know my round body A2 (SN86xxx) has it, but my old four flats (SN3xxx) doesn't. It should be easy to tell if the glass is AR coated, as any bit of color tinge should be noticeable when holding the light at the right angle.

There have been times where I almost thought my newer A2 was brighter than my old four-flats. I never really did any real extensive testing as my old four flats is a shelf queen that I rarely use. I seriously doubt the AR coating makes enough of a difference to make one appear brighter than the other. I'm not too sure either way.

When the A2 drops out of regulation and goes into it's "dim incandescent" mode, it best not to fire up the lamp again at that point, as it is severely underdriven and very hard on the lamp. That's likely why yours burnt out.

I agree there is a nice satisfaction you get when running a good incandescent. Something that you don't get with LED's IMO.


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## rrego

I noticed that my Four Flats that is not as bright as the round, both running Tad drop-ins 4812 bulbs, makes a buzzing sound when the incan bulb is on. This is the only one of my six A2s that buzzes when the incan is on. I wonder if the regulator might not be performing at its optimum, but again that is in the body, not the head.

Another test I've done is to swap heads between the two and the Round head is still brighter than the Four Flats head. I wonder if the Four Flat head has maybe more resistance somewhere than the Round head(?). I might have to clean with Deoxit and check if that helps it.


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## DayofReckoning

Both my A2's have the buzzing sound when activating the high beam. It's coming from the tailcap, so I don't think it's an issue with the regulator. In fact, almost all Surefires I have owned with the two stage tailcap have made the buzzing to some degree.

It's possible that there were improvements in the A2 when the body style changed, though Ive never seen this confirmed.


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## night.hoodie

DayofReckoning said:


> When the A2 drops out of regulation and goes into it's "dim incandescent" mode, it best not to fire up the lamp again at that point, as it is severely underdriven and very hard on the lamp. That's likely why yours burnt out.



Usually when I have a post talking about underdriving a lamp, a dutiful cpf member comes along and reminds me that underdriven lamps are not efficient and produce light that is very yellow. I'll reply that I don't mind the inefficiency, as long as I am getting a longer runtime (though with less total amount of light) on the same cell(s) and a lower light level, and the yellowing is actually nicer to what I'll call "morning eyes," the eyes you wake up with in the dark that hate bright light.

This is the first I have seen it claimed that underdriving a lamp is hard on the lamp. Are you referring to the A2 stock MA02, specifically with the incan A2 regulator (does this regulator have something to do with that), or all lamps, everywhere, always?

I have been using the same Tad Custom's A4812 with his E-socket in an Elite head in a single-cell setup with a 3.2V LFE18500 every night for at least a year with at least one extra cell swap a night. I'd peg the amount of light close to an E1e, about 12-15lm, but more yellow. I get about an hour out of these 18500 Duracell Solar cells with the A4812. That is at least 365 hours on this particular lamp, probably closer to 450 hours. What I have always thought was (no telling why), though not as energy efficient as when driven by proper voltage, and color temperature drops considerably, an underdriven lamp will outlast a properly driven lamp, and far far outlast a more efficient overdriven lamp, and my anacdotal experience supports this. But I'm only using Tad Custom's Xenon lamps.

Where did you get the idea underdriving lamps is hard on the lamp? Or are you, again, only referring to A2 and MA02?

I will add, if running incan A2 with secondary cells, as soon as the lamp drops out of regulation, the cells are empty, close to 2.5V, so do not use either the LED or the lamp at that point, but swap in fresh cells.


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## DayofReckoning

When the A2 drop's out of regulation, the lamp is _*SEVERELY*_ underdriven. I don't know how many lumens the lamp is putting out at this point, but it's very, very dim. 

I believe there is a big difference between underdriven and _*severely*_ underdriven.

I won't pretend to have technical knowledge to the inner working of incandescent lamps, but my understanding is when a lamp is under driven to a certain extent, it cannot complete whatever "cycle" is going on with the gasses inside the lamp, resulting in black deposits on the envelope, thus being "hard on the lamp".

Hopefully someone with more knowledge will come along and explain better.


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## bykfixer

Correct. It darkens faster. 

Think about it this way:
When you start a fire and it smolders there is lots of smoke. Once it's burning at full potential the smoke is a lot less. Add lighter fluid and it burns hotter with even less smoke but the wood "cooks" a lot faster.

Similar type of thing happens inside the globe of a light bulb.


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## night.hoodie

I see. In theory, more tungsten deposit on the globe interior (darkening) means not only less light escaping, but less tungsten on the filament, leading to frail filament and higher probability of filament failure. I see this as a concern with Surefire stock lamp or Lumens Factory lamps due to their rarity and/or expense. I play fast and loose with Tad Custom's lamps, looking for hidden "battery modes," sometimes driving the A3712 with a single 1.2V NiMH (more often with 2xNiMH), or the newer A6010 with a single primary or single 3.2V LiFePO4. 

Sometimes with Tad Custom's lamps, especially after a physical shock of some sort, I notice the hotspot changes shape, is no longer a perfect fuzzy circle, but some other shape, sometimes an hourglass-shape is projected. Wiping the lamp with alcohol more often than not restores the perfect hotspot. But there have been rarer insances when alcohol has no effect, hotspot remains distorted, especially if the lamp has darkening. I cannot understand how wiping the exterior of the lamp with alcohol seems to have an effect on what is on the interior of the lamp globe, which I assumed causes an anomolous mishapen hotspot.


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## fivemega

DayofReckoning said:


> When the A2 drop's out of regulation, the lamp is _*SEVERELY*_ underdriven. I don't know how many lumens the lamp is putting out at this point, but it's very, very dim.


*I didn't know lamp can be underdriven in A2
Are you talking about incand $urefire A2 ???*


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## DayofReckoning

fivemega said:


> *I didn't know lamp can be underdriven in A2
> Are you talking about incand $urefire A2 ???*



Yes. When the batteries can not long provide full current to the regulator for full brightness, the incandescent bulb will drop into a very low output mode where it is _*very*_ underdriven. This is common knowledge.


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## bykfixer

I did not know that DoR. I'm new to the A2.

So when it goes into the 'dim' mode, which btw may be part of a regulation to show "hey, your batteries are low"....does the ability to keep it on for a while exist or does it dim then shut off? 

I use the LED of my A2 99% of the time since ordinarily I have a brighter light handy. So a pair of primaries may last years in my case. But I just wondered how long you have to 'find' new fuel in the event the brighter output is needed.

I say the dim may be a part of the regulation knowing that PK makes his newer lights so that they don't fall out of regulation. Instead they switch to a lower output kinda like shifting a car into low gear. And he played a big part in the A2 design way back when.


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## DayofReckoning

When it drops into the dim incandescent mode, it will not run very long at all, maybe a few minutes I'm guessing? And will progressively grow dimmer, and dimmer quickly. However, the beautiful thing about the A2 is the LED's at this point will run for a very long time.

Now that I think of it, for some weird reason, the LED's themselves actually have 2 levels of brightness whenever one's cells are depleted enough that the incan lamp won't fire up. When one turns on the LED's at this point, if you fully press the tailcap switch, or full tightnen the tailcap, the LED's will gain a little brightness. I don't know why it does this, but both my A2's do this, and I've seen other comment their does it as well.


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## bykfixer

The dimmer and dimmer sounds just like what PKDL PR-1 light does when a primary is running out of fuel. It will flash a few times first, then down shift to a lower setting (medium) then a few minutes later the low that provides a minute or so of steady output. Then it begins to quickly fade. From the flash mode you have about 5 minutes to find new fuel. 

I suppose the A2 LED can run full output on a lot less voltage than it's incan counterpart. Again using a car analogy, perhaps it's like a big block engine that has ability to start out with a 3 cylinder engine. ie the LED to start with ability to add the light bulb. 

So I speculate the light is designed to allow you to stomp the accelerator while out of regulation. If I understand correctly the bulb is what is regulated. Not the LED's but I may be wrong there. 

Either way, yeah I can see where a low fuel situation will allow the light bulb to be greatly under driven.


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## mcm308

I am an another that when I die, my A2 is going under with me. I used to have a bunch, all different colors, although never had the elusive "BK".. When my main drops out, I always switch the batts with fresh. Ill never know when I need that main to fire. I keep the depleted batteries to use in emergency situations like when my house loses power and all I need are the LEDs for a bit of light. They work exceptionally well for that. And Ill also use them up in other single cell LED's I have. 

But my A2 always gets fresh cells!


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## night.hoodie

DayofReckoning said:


> Now that I think of it, for some weird reason, the LED's themselves actually have 2 levels of brightness whenever one's cells are depleted enough that the incan lamp won't fire up. When one turns on the LED's at this point, if you fully press the tailcap switch, or full tightnen the tailcap, the LED's will gain a little brightness. I don't know why it does this, but both my A2's do this, and I've seen other comment their does it as well.




This is by design and due to the tailcap 10ohm resistor. The lamp is regulated, but the LED ring is direct drive when the lamp is lit, though it stays activated in both modes. In the mode with the lamp, (noticeable when the lamp can no longer be lit by the cells) the LEDs will appear brighter because the resistor is no longer in the circuit, LED ring is directly driven.



js said:


> When you activate the switch to the first position, there is a 10 ohm resistor from the battery stack negative to the LED ring negative, and a direct connection to the battery stack positive. Close the switch all the way, and the 10 ohm resistor is replaced by a short circuit, or in other words, a direct drive to the LED with no extra resistance. *You may be able to prove this to yourself, by removing the lamp from the head, reinstalling the head without the lamp, and activating the switch. In some A2's, the LED ring contacts will mate with the middle ring and body of the light even without the lamp in place, and you can see that taking the 10 ohm resistor out of the circuit by depressing the switch all the way makes the LED's brighter than they are with just the first position activation.*




But is the dead lamp eating any power (I was always told a burned-out lightbulb uses more electricity), or does the regulator bypass the lamp once it can no longer be powered? This is a detail we'll want to know when having a reason to efficiently use what remains in nearly depleated cells.

I expect the answer is "no," because the lamp isn't "burned out," instead there is merely not enough voltage supplied to the regulator to light the lamp.


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## InvisibleFrodo

So the LEDs remain lit when you twist the tailcap all the way or press the button in all the way to activate the incandescent lamp? I was under the impression that the light ran one or the other.
I never really gave this light much thought until recently very recently. You guys saying the beam is so fantastic and reading that the lamp is regulated and even features a built in soft start? That sounds like a dream light! Throw in a Tad custom adaptor and an onion ring and you have an amazing light. The best of both worlds so to speak...
On the Tads customs site they only recommend bulbs used in A2s with primaries... Will they work with a pair of Li-fe or Li-ion? Someone said the regulator can handle up to 9 volts?
These lights look amazing. The only lights I own from SureFire are all incandescent lights that are now discontinued.


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## vicv

Yes they will work with a pair of rechargeable cells. Only problem is it will severely discharge them as it'll take them down to below 2v a cell


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## InvisibleFrodo

Most cells with protection circuits will cut out at 2.5 volts, but I never let them get that low anyways. I’m very conscious of lithium batteries. Been using them in RC cars, planes, and helicopters since probably around 2005 if memory serves. Before that it was Ni-MH, and before that, Ni-Cd


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## vicv

True but I don't use protected batteries. plus with RC vehicles and other things you can see when performance starts to drop telling you the batteries are dead. The a2 will not give you any indication the batteries are dead because of the regulated circuit


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## InvisibleFrodo

I never noticed a decline in performance toward the end of a run once I started using lithium batteries in RC vehicles. Although most of those cells where Li-Po, and they are flat wafer style cells, not cylindrical like we use in flashlights.
I would use programmable speed controls from Castle Creations almost whenever possible, and they have fully adjustable settings for a low voltage cutoff, and for some reason I never had it actually stop me despite increasing the cutoff voltage.

So in an A2, if I want to use Tads bulbs, should I be sticking to the bulbs rated for 3.7 volts even if I’m using 2 rechargeable cells?
I see they have a 4.8 volt cell they say will be under driven in an A2... Will the 80 lumen 3.7 volt 1.2 amp bulb still put out 80 lumens, or will it be less because of the current control?


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## InvisibleFrodo

What about the built in soft start? Is that real? What is the difference between the 4 flats and the round body? I notice the 4 flats say digital plus series and the round bodied ones do not. Is there some performance or design change beyond the flat spots on the body?


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## archimedes

4-flats are the earlier design


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## id30209

Any A2, flat or round has the same electronic/softstart regulator delivering constant 4V. Using 3.7V cells it won’t mean anything since bulb will still be regulated at 4V. LED’s on the other side will see more than triple current thus causing possible burn out (although i still don’t know for any case).
Using Tad’s 3712 bulb you’ll have more than declared 80lm (or whatever it is, can’t remeber now).


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## InvisibleFrodo

Okay, so the regulator delivers 4 volts to the bulb, so the 3712 which is meant to take lithium rechargeable batteries that are 4.2 volts when fully charged should do just fine I would think... That would explain why the 4812 would be under driven. Has anybody here tried that combo? My instincts say that putting 4 volts to a 4.8 volt bulb would result in longer bulb life vs putting 4 volts to a 3.7 volt bulb.
Now I’m seriously tempted to try to acquire one of these. They sound like an absolutely awesome light.
Do the LEDs stay on when the bulb is activated?


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## 1pt21

id30209 said:


> Any A2, flat or round has the same electronic/softstart regulator delivering constant 4V. Using 3.7V cells it won’t mean anything since bulb will still be regulated at 4V. LED’s on the other side will see more than triple current thus causing possible burn out (although i still don’t know for any case).



I always hear it, and it always scares me a bit. But, has a failure ever been reported?? Ever?? LOL, I'm seriously asking if you (or anyone) know of any failures. I've been doing it for years, never a problem.


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## archimedes

Yes, I've fairly sure I've seen a post discussing damaged (dimmed) LEDs in this situation.

I don't have much time for searching right now, best I could find at the moment was this (secondhand) report ...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...-dimming-LED&p=1245592&viewfull=1#post1245592


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## 1pt21

WOW all the way back to 2006!! Thanks so much for the reference!!!

Definitely an eye opener... I'd have never found that on my own :thumbsup::thumbsup:




archimedes said:


> Yes, I've fairly sure I've seen a post discussing damaged (dimmed) LEDs in this situation.
> 
> I don't have much time for searching right now, best I could find at the moment was this (secondhand) report ...
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...-dimming-LED&p=1245592&viewfull=1#post1245592


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## bykfixer

I'm always surprised at how few opt for LifePo4 batteries. 

Overdriving the LED ring in an aviator may yield a dozen lumens? Can you see that? I can't. 

Frodo, you gotta try the A2. On paper it's a bit of a head scratcher, but in use it's an amazing thing to behold. PK once told me a regulated incan was one of his favorite ideas.


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## thermal guy

Agree on using an A2. It’s not a wow light it’s just a light that works in many situations. Nice low level flood beam to use up close and a nice incandescent to give you some throw. Best of both worlds. I don’t use mine as much as I probably should.


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## ampdude

archimedes said:


> Yes, I've fairly sure I've seen a post discussing damaged (dimmed) LEDs in this situation.
> 
> I don't have much time for searching right now, best I could find at the moment was this (secondhand) report ...
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...-dimming-LED&p=1245592&viewfull=1#post1245592



I haven't had any damaged or dimmed LED's using this configuration with stock LED ring or an onion ring. Not saying it can't happen, just not in my experience and I've been doing it a long time. Currently I have an onion ring in my main user with red LED's for two or three years now. If they would go bad, I can just replace them or put in some Yuji's.

Haven't noticed noticed any dimming with white or red LED's either.


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## ampdude

bykfixer said:


> I'm always surprised at how few opt for LifePo4 batteries.
> 
> Overdriving the LED ring in an aviator may yield a dozen lumens? Can you see that? I can't.
> 
> Frodo, you gotta try the A2. On paper it's a bit of a head scratcher, but in use it's an amazing thing to behold. PK once told me a regulated incan was one of his favorite ideas.



I wish they had gone ahead and released the 9 volt Aviator version!! The E3e Executive release would have been nice too.


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## ampdude

thermal guy said:


> Agree on using an A2. It’s not a wow light it’s just a light that works in many situations. Nice low level flood beam to use up close and a nice incandescent to give you some throw. Best of both worlds. I don’t use mine as much as I probably should.



I've had the A2 in some situations where the throw and spell came in incredibly handy in very large dark places. Surprising for such a small light with only 50 rated lumens. I believe some members with the proper equipment have rated the A2 in the lower 70 lumens range if I recall correctly.


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## yazkaz

bykfixer said:


> I'm always surprised at how few opt for LifePo4 batteries.
> Overdriving the LED ring in an aviator may yield a dozen lumens? Can you see that? I can't.
> Frodo, you gotta try the A2. On paper it's a bit of a head scratcher, but in use it's an amazing thing to behold. PK once told me a regulated incan was one of his favorite ideas.



My understanding is that the A2 body is extremely picky with rechargeables. AFAIK only the SF LiFePO4s would fit in and not damage the circuit in the long run. Other 3.7V RCRs simply won't fit except the Fenix, but that would mess up the internal circuit in the long run, so I was told.


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## bykfixer

I use primaries in mine. But figure with so many folks using rechargeables these days there would be more talk about LifePo4 batteries yaz.


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## 1pt21

bykfixer said:


> I use primaries in mine. But figure with so many folks using rechargeables these days there would be more talk about LifePo4 batteries yaz.



I'm with ya Byk 100% now. I've tried LifePo's but after a few years they expanded AND leaked in my precious, you better believe that the light was cleaned and recovered. However, that incident alone scared me away from them (they were cheap Tenergy's I believe). 

Nowadays primary's are so cheap it's just common sense to use them in a light like the A2. Not only are they awesome lights, they're long discontinued...

I will say that I tried a cheaper brand of 123's on Amazon (I think they were labeled RavPower or something and had good reviews overall), well they got stuck again my my A2.

Since then I just went to the 'Good Deals' section on CPF itself and stocked up on that sick LAPG deal, I'm set for a long time given that they're guaranteed 10 year shelf life and PROVEN to go WELL beyond that with little to no capacity loss... And they fit. And they won't leak.

A light such as the A2 deserves to be fed with quality primary cells is what I have concluded after owning well over a dozen and having many modified parts for them (one light I've never sold since acquisition is the A2 FYI ). Small price to pay for a guarantee of no worries, I'll mess with my other lights.


ETA: I know I may have sounded to contradict my prior posts, however all I was saying is that I've come full-circle and through all of my prior experiences concluded that quality primary's are the way to go. I guess the only exception would be if you're a heavy A2 user (are many left??) then you may want to consider LifePo's. 

I've tried it all, luckily never fried anything!


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## yazkaz

1pt21 said:


> I'm with ya Byk 100% now. I've tried LifePo's but after a few years they expanded AND leaked in my precious, you better believe that the light was cleaned and recovered. However, that incident alone scared me away from them (they were cheap Tenergy's I believe).
> 
> Nowadays primary's are so cheap it's just common sense to use them in a light like the A2. Not only are they awesome lights, they're long discontinued...
> 
> I will say that I tried a cheaper brand of 123's on Amazon (I think they were labeled RavPower or something and had good reviews overall), well they got stuck again my my A2.
> 
> Since then I just went to the 'Good Deals' section on CPF itself and stocked up on that sick LAPG deal, I'm set for a long time given that they're guaranteed 10 year shelf life and PROVEN to go WELL beyond that with little to no capacity loss... And they fit. And they won't leak.
> 
> A light such as the A2 deserves to be fed with quality primary cells is what I have concluded after owning well over a dozen and having many modified parts for them (one light I've never sold since acquisition is the A2 FYI ). Small price to pay for a guarantee of no worries, I'll mess with my other lights.
> 
> ETA: I know I may have sounded to contradict my prior posts, however all I was saying is that I've come full-circle and through all of my prior experiences concluded that quality primary's are the way to go. I guess the only exception would be if you're a heavy A2 user (are many left??) then you may want to consider LifePo's.
> 
> I've tried it all, luckily never fried anything!


So you've tried LiFePO4s and they work?? I have some Tenergy LiFePO4s (400mAh unprotected green/grey label) and NONE of then fit into the A2.

For now I too only stick to quality CR123as especially the Panasonic USA black label one.

BTW has anyone tried the LF A2 tower LED module? Works decently but somehow doesn't look as bright as the E2e tower module, also driven at the same current (1.6A).

Tad's stuff is simply off limits to me as I'm not going back to incan with small flashlight forms.


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## 1pt21

yazkaz said:


> So you've tried LiFePO4s and they work?? I have some Tenergy LiFePO4s (400mAh unprotected green/grey label) and NONE of then fit into the A2.



Yes, very well so indeed while they lasted... Tads has changed my A2's forever also, fantastic mods offered.


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