# HID in my opinion is the next gen LED



## cobb (Dec 13, 2005)

I fired up my hid lamp this afternoon. Man, pure white beam, nice spot and throw with the poor reflector I had. Man, who needs a 5 or 3 watt led with hid technology? They should just save those little led bulbs for keyrings and just go full steam with HID.


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## Navck (Dec 13, 2005)

Problems:
Delicate
Lifetime of bulb
Plain expensive as you get smaller too.
Ballast...
Battery..
Etc etc. Bad to replace a small form factor "HOLY BRIGHTNESS" light.

(That means I can't have anything like HDS EDC U85, etc...)


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## Kiessling (Dec 13, 2005)

HID from above and LED from below will eventually crush incan. But if I were a HID light I'd fear LED ... and not the other way round! :devil:
LED is moving, HID isn't.
bernie


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## IsaacHayes (Dec 13, 2005)

I agree Bernie!


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## cary (Dec 13, 2005)

A few more items that make HID not a very good alternative:

1) Scalability: You can only scale down an HID lamp so far.
2) Warmup time. 10 seconds to full bright. Hey buddy stand still while my tatical light warms up a bit. 
3) One light setting. You can dim an HID slightly but it lacks the ability to be run at widely different output settings. 

HID works well for high output lights that are run for long period of time. As someone above said, look for LED to scale up, but HID will likely not scale down bellow the current 10 watt Welch Allen units. In fact in 5 years I would expect to not see 10 watt HID lamps, but this board talking about the latest Luxoen X or XV, with 500 lumen capability.


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## cobb (Dec 13, 2005)

Thanks for crapping on my thread. I had no idea LED were brighter and better than HID, my bad. 

I seriously doubt we will another better than the lux 5 led. If you liquid cool it, but then it becomes less efficient. 

What about the two technologies joining forces? LED/HID?


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## Dogliness (Dec 13, 2005)

I would like to thank Navck and cary for their interesting comments. 

Today, HID lights are used primarily in high wattage nightime sporting event lights, and high end vehicle headlights. They are also used on the International Space Station. 

Ionization of gas is necessary to create the light in an HID lamp, which requires a high voltage produced by a power supply, or ballast. In automotive lights, where a quicker start up time is needed, Xenon is added because it ionizes more rapidly, but it still takes more than 10 seconds for the light to reach full output. There are also problems restarting a hot lamp that is turned off momentarily, as HID lights start more efficiently when they are cold. 

While the high output of HID lights would be pretty cool in a small flashlight, current HID technology is not adaptable to small flashing lights.


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## twentysixtwo (Dec 13, 2005)

I don't think anyone meant to crap on your thread, but your statement was unfortunately uninformed. Take no offense, everyone has to start somewhere. 

HID at higher power outputs still trounces LED (Try to get 3000+ lumens out of LED's, much less 300,000) but LED's are the way to go for anything you plan to carry around. I have a 10 watt HID but I seriously think a U-Bin sixgun would give it a run for the money. HID is not as efficient at the lower power levels and LED's will pass these soon enough....

As far as a LED/HID hybrid, that's another story....


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## Mike Painter (Dec 13, 2005)

cobb said:


> Thanks for crapping on my thread. I had no idea LED were brighter and better than HID, my bad.
> 
> I seriously doubt we will another better than the lux 5 led. If you liquid cool it, but then it becomes less efficient.
> 
> What about the two technologies joining forces? LED/HID?



They are totally different technologies. and will not merge.

To say that there will never be anything better than the lux five is a lot like what people said in the early days of computers when 4.7 MhZ was fast.

If you examine the "bin" process you will see that the then LEDS that come off the assembly line range from about 60 to about 249 lumins.
They all cost the same to make and they all draw the same current.
As with all semiconductors they will become more efficent, prices will drop and new technology will develop.

HID will always require high voltage to run, just as the first arc lamps did in the 1800's


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## InfidelCastro (Dec 14, 2005)

One thing that is always mentioned about LED's is bulb life, but it seems the more powerful we get with them, the more we get back to incandescent style bulb lives. And many people have experienced the infamous "led dim" over the years.

There's alot of exciting techonology coming out in the LED front through. Especially the breakthroughs announced in South Korea and the one by IBM recently as well.


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## asdalton (Dec 14, 2005)

InfidelCastro said:


> One thing that is always mentioned about LED's is bulb life, but it seems the more powerful we get with them, the more we get back to incandescent style bulb lives.



This isn't even close to being true. What LEDs last for 40 hours and then go *poof*?


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## 270winchester (Dec 14, 2005)

InfidelCastro said:


> One thing that is always mentioned about LED's is bulb life, but it seems the more powerful we get with them, the more we get back to incandescent style bulb lives. And many people have experienced the infamous "led dim" over the years.



The dimming usually has to do with over driving the LED with an out-of-spec power source or without proper heatsink, some times both. A properly designed LED light, even a Lux V, will not dim with regular usage before the light itself dies.

True there are incandecent bulbs rated for thousands of hours, they just take more power.


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## InfidelCastro (Dec 14, 2005)

asdalton said:


> This isn't even close to being true. What LEDs last for 40 hours and then go *poof*?




That's not what I said.


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## InfidelCastro (Dec 14, 2005)

270winchester said:


> The dimming usually has to do with over driving the LED with an out-of-spec power source or without proper heatsink, some times both. A properly designed LED light, even a Lux V, will not dim with regular usage before the light itself dies.
> 
> True there are incandecent bulbs rated for thousands of hours, they just take more power.




I was referring to the tendancy of LED bulbs to dim over time with use. (like thousands of hours) I wasn't really talking about dimming over a particular runtime. I don't know, maybe that's what you were referring to also?

There was a thread awhile back discussing people's old LED's and how they're not as bright as they used to be. I have a couple of old LED flashlights that seem to be getting dimmer and more blue over time.

I love LED's, but I've noticed some pretty irrational posts as of late. As though sliced bread is endangered by LED technology.


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## 270winchester (Dec 14, 2005)

InfidelCastro said:


> I was referring to the tendancy of LED bulbs to dim over time with use. (like thousands of hours) I wasn't really talking about dimming over a particular runtime. I don't know, maybe that's what you were referring to also?



The dimming over the life time of the LED what I was talking about. A lot of times LEDs' Vf drops over the inital period and direct driving or a badly designed circuit can over power it with too much voltage and causing it to dim over time, of course I know that LED get dimmer and batteries are depleted...

Like I said msot of the time it's the design of the light, not the LED, that causes the dimming. Ihaven't heard of many Surefires, Mcgizmo, or HDS light that have dimming LEDs. But dimming LED inb cheap imports or Lion-Cubs? Oh yeah....

LEDs are rated at thousands of hours(Lux III) or 500 hours to 75% output(lux V) provided that:

1. they aren't severely over driven and
2. there is adquate heat sinking.

CHeck who as said that their LEDs have dimmed over the service life and you will see a pattern emerging. 

Sorry dude, but LEDs ARE the future, just wait till the nano LEDs come out....:rock:


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## InfidelCastro (Dec 14, 2005)

270winchester said:


> The dimming over the life time of the LED what I was talking about. A lot of times LEDs' Vf drops over the inital period and direct driving or a badly designed circuit can over power it with too much voltage and causing it to dim over time, of course I know that LED get dimmer and batteries are depleted...
> 
> Like I said msot of the time it's the design of the light, not the LED, that causes the dimming. Ihaven't heard of many Surefires, Mcgizmo, or HDS light that have dimming LEDs. But dimming LED inb cheap imports or Lion-Cubs? Oh yeah....
> 
> ...




Hehe, interesting post, thanks. I have noticed new brighter LED's for sale though with very short runtimes. Would you say that they're all being overdriven for what current LED technology allows?


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## PeLu (Dec 14, 2005)

HID lights have the advantage that the source of light is very small, almost apoint. This makes it easier to get well focused spotlight.

One of their disadvantages not mentioned above is, that some of them have difficulties to start at very low temperatures. 

And they involve wuite high voltages, this might be an issue or not, depending on your application.


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## TORCH_BOY (Dec 14, 2005)

Leds can always be strobed, run at diferent power levels, they come in different colors, and run at much lower voltages. That would be a bit hard with HID


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## 270winchester (Dec 14, 2005)

InfidelCastro said:


> Hehe, interesting post, thanks. I have noticed new brighter LED's for sale though with very short runtimes. Would you say that they're all being overdriven for what current LED technology allows?



Depending on the LED and the driver. for example, with the HDS it is strictly controlled by hand picking LEDS to match the desired output but keeping the current to under an amp or so. WIth good heat sinking 1 amp is no problem for any Luxeon LED, but in the case of many lights, they use high current(1.5 A or more) to compansate for the inferior LEDs.

Example of a over driven light would be the Lion Cub, where its high runs on around 1.5 amps and so the light apparently was designed such that the star can eb replaced easily.


The newer K2s would tolerate higher heat and current but not many of us have even seen them, so as of now, the driver of the LED decides whether or not the LEDs over driven or not.

THere are a lot of Direct Drive Lux lights such as the Jill DD or the Raw, they rely on the proximity of the Vf of the LED and the voltage of the Li-Ion batteries, and over time there is a risk of dimming, but then again these lights are not designed to be long running light anyway. But man the Raw is a bright light in such as small package...I was sorry to see my U-bin go, but just coluldn't justify keeping it as I wasn't using it enough.


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## markdi (Dec 14, 2005)

led is not brighter - more efficient than hid

hid is not that delicate - it is more robust than incan by far - my 35 watt hid vector survived being dropped lot's of times and lots of other abuse by my 87 year old grandfather.
he loved to use it as his rascal scooter headlight.

the baha 1000 racers use hid lighting.


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## Mike Painter (Dec 14, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdalton
This isn't even close to being true. What LEDs last for 40 hours and then go *poof*? 

That's not what I said.

I'm sure the going "poof" refers to the incandescent light bulb. I was going to mention that but felt his comment covered it.


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## mdocod (Dec 14, 2005)

I agree with most of the responces here- that it will be "the other way around" so to speak. LED will eventually overcome HID in price/performance ratio for lower wattage flashlights. However, both technologies probably have room for improvement. I feel that high-output LEDs are still in their infancy, and have lots of room to grow. Like prevously mentioned- we can compare the future trends of LED technology to the trends in computer technology... 

I remember when we were at 200MHZ and all indications suggested that we could never get past 500. Then we were at 500 and all indications suggested we would never break the 1GHZ barrier, then we were at 1GHZ, and again, all indications suggested we would never be able to break 2GHZ... Now we have pentiums that can be overclocked to beyond 4GHZ.... however, we have finally hit a "temporary" barrier it would seem. So....The industry has responded to the problem by putting multiple proccessors on the same die. "dual-core" chips are available from IBM (appearing in apple comps), AMD, and intel. When they couldn't go faster down the same old path they used to take- they found other ways to go faster. LEDs will probably see much of that same type of trend over their life. I'm excited to see a luxeon X 10W, and I know we will.


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## InfidelCastro (Dec 14, 2005)

Mike Painter said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by asdalton
> This isn't even close to being true. What LEDs last for 40 hours and then go *poof*?
> 
> ...



I know what he meant. But he claimed I said that some LED's will burn out after 40 hours. Which is obvioulsy not even close to what I said.


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## Navck (Dec 14, 2005)

Luxeon 5 with 3 Luxeon dies = Ouch!


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## spokes (Dec 16, 2005)

cobb said:


> .................I seriously doubt we will another better than the lux 5 led. If you liquid cool it, but then it becomes less efficient.



The very last sentence on the last page of my 5th Grade science book (1965-66) was "Man will never land on the moon"


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## lotsalumens (Dec 16, 2005)

Mike Painter said:


> HID will always require high voltage to run, just as the first arc lamps did in the 1800's




Just a correction to an earlier post. The early 1800's arc lamps ran on 70-100 volts at a bout 6 amps or so. They used a mechanism to slowly pull two carbon rod apart to start the arc (like an arc welder which is also low voltage). Strings of arc lamps were wired in series necessitating high voltages across the strings, but the individual lamps were relatively low voltage. My avatar is an example of a circa 1882 carbon arc lamp operating. These are the true forefathers of modern HIDs.

cfb


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## lotsalumens (Dec 16, 2005)

P.S. Modern HIDs neet high starting voltages, but operate on relatively low voltages. Look at a typical short arc bulb that might require 30kV to start and 25 volts to run.


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## cobb (Dec 16, 2005)

spokes said:


> The very last sentence on the last page of my 5th Grade science book (1965-66) was "Man will never land on the moon"



I hope I end up eating that statement. Bring on the 100 watt led lamps.

Thanks, will look up microsun.


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## MillerMods (Dec 16, 2005)

I see that this subject has already been blitzed, but I would like to add that LED technology is still in it's infant stages. Although it has been around since the 60's, little has been done with it until recently. I have read that they have quantum wells using nanocrystals producing a 50% electron to photon conversion in the lab. The most effecient LED's are like 15% effecient or somewhere in that realm. Researchers believe 90% and higher conversion (effeciency) is a very likely reality in the next 10 to 15 years. The LED will become the most dominate lighting method in the world (at this point in time) unless something better is developed.


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 17, 2005)

Navck said:


> Problems:
> Delicate
> Lifetime of bulb
> Plain expensive as you get smaller too.
> ...




As markdi already said, HID lights aren't delicate. They aren't as rugged at LEDs, but they can still take a beating. I've dropped two of my HID lights to this day and no problems. (One light was drop tested from 6 feet onto cement 3 times in a row)

Many HID flashlight's bulbs last 1500-3000 hours...............not too shabby 

Yes, they are expensive. But, find me an LED light in a 2D mag size that can put out 500 lumens for under $300 (good luck). You have to pay for performance.

I partially agree with your ballast point. They are a pain, but technology advances quickly, and the ballast sizes will go down.

Battery? What's your point with this one? LEDs need batteries, too, and HIDs are more efficient.

I myself don't think HID is quite ready for EDCing, but it will get there.



Quote from Kiessling: "LED is moving, HID isn't."


Kiessling, HID is moving. Very much so. Ten years ago HID in flashlights was unheard of and sounded rediculous. It was barely even used in cars at that point. Now it's all over the place.

Very soon you will see HID lights on the market that have the full warmup time down to 5 seconds or less, I almost guarantee it.

The reason why LED technology seems to be moving so much more than HID technology is that there are many LED light manufacturers on the forum; far more then HID manufacturers. LEDs get talked about far more often for this reason, as well. If there were as many HID light manufacturers active on the forum as LED manufacturers, I'm positive you would have a different and less biased opinion. There just isn't enough "in the know" information available about HID on CPF because of the lack of HID makers present. LED makers post about updates and advances constantly, while HID makers dont. It's somewhat of an illusion.

Please, don't read this post and think I hate LED. I love LEDs. I EDC them all the time. I just don't think HID is getting it's deserved credit.


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## MillerMods (Dec 17, 2005)

MaxaBaker said:


> Yes, they are expensive. But, find me an LED light in a 2D mag size that can put out 500 lumens for under $300 (good luck). You have to pay for performance.


A bored two cell mag. with 8 AA NIMH buck driving 4 Lux V from the right bin will get you over 500 lumens no problem. Estimated price @ 200 bucks or less. Also take a look here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/100137


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## Mike Painter (Dec 17, 2005)

cobb said:


> I hope I end up eating that statement. Bring on the 100 watt led lamps.



No. Bring out the more efficent LEDs that use 1 amp at 12 volts to produce the same light as a 100 watt incan. The generation after that can produce the same light as a 100 watt HID.


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## MillerMods (Dec 17, 2005)

Mike Painter said:


> No. Bring out the more efficent LEDs that use 1 amp at 12 volts to produce the same light as a 100 watt incan. The generation after that can produce the same light as a 100 watt HID.



What is that, like 900 lumens from 12 watts? If it doesn't break any laws of physics, it'll happen.


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 17, 2005)

MillerMods said:


> A bored two cell mag. with 8 AA NIMH buck driving 4 Lux V from the right bin will get you over 500 lumens no problem. Estimated price @ 200 bucks or less. Also take a look here:
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/100137




I stand corrected! Thank you MM. 



I think my other points still hold their value, though.


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## NewBie (Dec 18, 2005)

MaxaBaker said:


> As markdi already said, HID lights aren't delicate. They aren't as rugged at LEDs, but they can still take a beating. I've dropped two of my HID lights to this day and no problems. (One light was drop tested from 6 feet onto cement 3 times in a row)
> 
> Many HID flashlight's bulbs last 1500-3000 hours...............not too shabby
> 
> ...




There is also a tremdously greater amount of research being done around the world on LED technologies, due to the inherent possibilities that are quite real. A whole multitude of governments around the world have national research programs, with a great many national labs doing an incredible amount of research into various aspects. This includes a whole plethora of LED manufacturers doing their own research. The dollar amounts of the profit levels are rising quite rapidly, and it will shortly be over a 10 Billion dollar industry.

HID bulbs do have the issue of lifetime, and the drop in lm/W over their life. The HID bulb itself has issues of ruggedness, very few can withstand the 1500g impacts that LEDs can. Though packaging can help this problem alot. HID circuitry involves some very stressful situations, involving high voltages, current pulses, efficiency considerations, physical size, complexity, as well as quite a few other variables that takes quite a bit of skill, to say the least. HID typically wastes alot of its power in the NIR spectrum, and efficiency drops considerably in the lower wattage bulbs. You won't find a 10 W HID bulb/ballast combo right now that will produce 90lm/W. Much higher efficiencies can be found in the 750-1000W HID range though, and often these are the numbers that are quoted for HID families in general. The quartz used does cost money, as well as processing it, various special metals that can help maintain the seals and deal with the heat, as well as handling the materials and forming them during manufacture, it all costs considerable money. Most HID bulbs have a poor CRI, and don't render many colors very well. In fact, in some cases, the highly "spikey" spectral output of HID can cause some colors to be greatly over emphasized, causing other colors to be quite muted, with the combination of the two effects causing nearly a "hiding" of some colors.

That doesn't go to say, that with some work, HID bulbs cannot be improved. Careful selection of cathode materials, maybe something like diamond embedded surfaces that can withstand higher stresses before vaporizing the surface, while keeping the heat conduction levels high, to prevent surface destruction, tip shapes, fill gas materials and spectral output, pressures, inner chamber atomspheric running temperatures, diddling with the heat removal vs. heat accumulation, surface shapes and finishes, and cathode fall, and many other aspects can't be improved upon.

Though I'd not ring the death bell to incandescent/halogen either. Following the KISS principle, and driving towards bottom dollar, they enjoy a great share of the market. There have been developments that could greatly increase the output of those devices. An example is the tungsten lattice I mentioned a few years ago, which, with careful manufacturing and structuring of the filament material, could increase the visible light output by 12x or so, with the same power input.
"This could raise the efficiency of an incandescent electric bulb from 5 percent to greater than 60 percent. "

That would put a 20lm/W incandescent into the 240lm/W range.

Details:
http://www.sandia.gov/media/NewsRel/NR2002/tungsten.htm

Since 30% of the worlds power consumption goes to nothing more than lighting, efficiency increases in the light sources (from whatever technology)could have a huge impact on a countries economy, with less of their GNP going towards making light, and once it is made, it is gone. Most forms of electricity generation produce pollution, so more efficient light sources also would help to clean the air and produce less waste from power generation.




MaxaBaker said:


> Yes, they are expensive. But, find me an LED light in a 2D mag size that can put out 500 lumens for under $300 (good luck). You have to pay for performance.



Humm, there is a full HID solution, batteries, 2D sized MagLite flashlight body and all, that offers 500 lumens for 300 dollars? I must have missed something, links?


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## AilSnail (Dec 18, 2005)

Newb, check out welch allyn (?) solarc, a 10w metal halide with a pretty short arc, much better than multiple LED for throwing far.

Bulb and ballast could be had for USD100 a few years ago. IIRC 500 bulb lumens @ 10w. Fits well in a D mag I am told, but you need a metal reflector and a glass lens. Different ballast models were available from 10.2v to ~14V(?) input. Long warmup time, little useful light the first seconds. I think 5-10sec to full output.

I have one built into an old steel "safir" bikelight, together with a CPU fan.

ad: The steel reflector is pretty rusted so I am looking for a new metal one, slightly wider but shallower than a mag reflector.


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## Lando (Dec 18, 2005)

I think he is most prob referring to this:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=100345

it has been around for some time now Newbie, bit suprised that you have not noticed it yet.
I love my HID flashlight(Brightstar), don't think any LED can compete with it in terms of output and long runtime at the moment.


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## markdi (Dec 18, 2005)

mini hid - 10 watt hid maglight. 240 bucks - too cool

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/100345

I need to sell my perfect very white arc ls3 and buy me one of these hid mag lights.

the arc ls3 is kool but I am afraid I will scratch it or it will get lost or stolen - it's no fun - too rare.


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## NewBie (Dec 18, 2005)

I see it doesn't come with batteries. How is the CRI on this lamp?

Right, but what about off-the-shelf production lights, at least something with a warranty? Any leads there?


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## AilSnail (Dec 18, 2005)

Look for it in high end (obviously) divelights, headlamps and bikelights. Wouldn't you rather build it yourself though?

It needs to be diffused since the projection is splotchy and has the colours unevenly distributed. It is a beautiful white but I do not know its CRI. The colour can momentarily shift toward red when it is shaken. Keep it well cooled and below 400G.

Heh, I see on the welch allyn site the price is now $79 for a ballast and $126 for the bulb and it is now rated 530 lm. Or do the $126 include the ballast?


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## XeVision (Dec 18, 2005)

> The HID bulb itself has issues of ruggedness, very few can withstand the 1500g impacts that LEDs can. Though packaging can help this problem alot.



Below is a quote from one of our very well known high tech Aerospace customers that did their own extreme environment testing of our HID system. In light of your statement I think you will find it interesting. This test was accomplished very recently. Also our 50 watt systems produce almost 110 lumens per watt from the bulb.

"You will be happy to know that we did shock test the lamp to an 1800
G-peak and while the lamp dimmed slightly there was an immediate
recovery and it continued to function."


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## markdi (Dec 18, 2005)

I remember reading - somewhere - that the 17-21-24 watt hid bulbs can withstand up to 4000 g's

I wonder how many g's the 10 watt solarc bulb or the 35 watt d2s type bulbs can take ?


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## NewBie (Dec 18, 2005)

AilSnail said:


> Look for it in high end (obviously) divelights, headlamps and bikelights. Wouldn't you rather build it yourself though?
> 
> It needs to be diffused since the projection is splotchy and has the colours unevenly distributed. It is a beautiful white but I do not know its CRI. The colour can momentarily shift toward red when it is shaken. Keep it well cooled and below 400G.
> 
> Heh, I see on the welch allyn site the price is now $79 for a ballast and $126 for the bulb and it is now rated 530 lm. Or do the $126 include the ballast?




Later next year you will be looking at LEDs with well over 70lm/W. Inside information says you will be looking in the +300 lumen range on these parts.


SolArc 10W:
http://hi-lux.com/lpd/webstore/detail.tpl?partnumber=M10N001-1&cart=110143435192812

53 lumens per watt. 

Okay, 530 lumens out of the HID bulb, but doubtful you'd get more than 400 lumens out of the flashlight, if you were lucky.

"Our tests have consistently shown a median life in excess of 1000 hours for our 10W Solarc™ products. Median life means, in a population of lamps, half of them will fail before 1000 hours and half after 1000 hours....It is possible for lamps to start failing in only a couple of hundred hours and some may last beyond 1500 hours!"
http://www.solarc.net/docs/divefaqs.html


If you don't leave the HID light on for one to two hours the lifetime of the bulb will be shortened. See page 2, duty cycle:
http://hi-lux.com/lpd/files/datasheets/ISL323A.pdf


"Why does the lamp color appear bluer as my battery discharges? 

This is a real effect and not an illusion. As the battery discharges, the lamp is operating at a lower wattage than its nominal value. The chemicals in the lamp are cooler and they are actually generating less red light making the lamp appear blue. This effect is entirely normal..."
http://www.solarc.net/docs/bikefaqs.html

At 350 hours, you are looking at 10% loss in light output.

So replacement bulbs for this short lifetime HID SolArc are $126.00 at one to 49 quantities.

Now remember the 53 lm/W rating for this SolArc bulb? Turns out the ballast is only 70% −75% efficient. Lets assume the average value of 72.5% efficiency. *This drops the SolArc solution down to 38.425 lm/W.* See datasheet, page 2 for reference:
http://hi-lux.com/lpd/files/datasheets/ISL305B2.pdf

I see the bulb can take an upper limit 400G:
"An upper limit of 400G’s is the absolute maximum shock that we recommend. Any shock above that amount will either cause the lamp to go out or even breakage of the arc chamber."
http://hi-lux.com/lpd/files/applicationnotes/10 Watt Application Note 1.pdf

"All of the Welch Allyn miniature metal halide lamp types have an arc gap of about 1.2mm regardless of wattage."

A few more details of a typical SolArc HID bulb can be found here, in this more complete datasheet, which includes the intensity at various points in the arc, Output over the life of the bulb:
http://www.walamp.com/lpd/files/datasheets/LSL009E.pdf


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## markdi (Dec 18, 2005)

I can get the 10 watt solarc bulbs for about 60 bucks.

I would blame the ballast for the short average bulb life and the low battery/colorshift problem.

A better ballast with better regulation is needed.

at 10 watts I would also blame Returns to scale.

still - including ballast losses - 12 watts or so for 530 -560 bulb lumens
and at least 500 hour bulb life makes for a kool laser like(gotta sell arc ls3)mag light or bike light you can buy right now.

hid throws a lot better than led.


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## Sway (Dec 18, 2005)

You can find a WA replacement lamp for the "Mini HID's" at BrightGuy for $65.95.

Somebody else had them for around 50 or 60 bucks sorry I can't find the link at this moment, and I'm not sure if it was a WA Lamp or something else.

The Mini Mag HID is a neat little light I just never found a use for it YMMV :candle:

Later
Kelly


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## NewBie (Dec 18, 2005)

Like fluorescents and mercury vapor, SolArc HID bulbs have a rather "spiky" output:








A good point of reference for comparision beams is the Maxtel JF990 (SPOT.是使用HID-10W燈泡) (scroll down to the 10W) It uses the same lamp/ballast 10W HID combo.
http://blog.xuite.net/hung.spencer/warfather/147687?st=c&w=18308&re=list&p=1
http://fuja.s22.xrea.com/review/maxtel_hid/index.html


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## NewBie (Dec 21, 2005)

NewBie said:


> Later next year you will be looking at LEDs with well over 70lm/W. Inside information says you will be looking in the +300 lumen range on these parts.
> 
> 
> SolArc 10W:
> ...




This Welch-Allyn SolArc lamp&ballast forms the basis for most "10W" Mini-HID flashlights, falling in at 38.4 lm/W. Any other light engine solutions out there?


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## idleprocess (Dec 23, 2005)

Let's get one things clear - there is no be-all, end all; no one-size-fits-all; no single "best" solution to anything, lighting included.

HID advantages: exceptionally efficient, moderately long lapm life, and scaling up to really high power levels. Weaknesses: requires moderately complex ballasts, operates at high temperatures, does not like stopping and starting, requires high voltages, and lamps are rather expensive.

LED advantages: constantly-increasing efficiency, low-voltage DC operation, typically precise spectrum control, and exceptionally long lamp life _(in most cases!)_. Weaknesses: Does not currently scale past ~10W per lamp, can have CRI isues, is often expensive per-unit, and requires careful thermal design since waste heat is not radiated away as light.

LEDs are best for small flashlights because they're fairly simple DC current devices. HID fails in this region because of its voltage requirements and apparent bottom floor of 10W; 10W devices aren't as efficient as the >100W devices that everyone loves to draw their >100lm/W numbers from. A 2D maglight seems to be about the minimum size for a 10W HID light due to the power, heat-dissipation, and ballast size requirements.

I'd say that there is less research going into HID than LED because they don't work as great at <100W, and 100W units are simply _too intense_ for general use by the buying public. LEDs have been shown to work for *decades* in well-designed applications. I think it's possible that the National Labs are planning for the day that energy is expensive and noone can afford either inefficieint lighting or an endless supply of short-lived light sources...


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## Lunarmodule (Dec 23, 2005)

I for one am very anxious to see th rollout of the higher flux LED designs. LL apparently has 100W protos, and right now Lamina Labs has their BL-3000 light engine making 570 lumens of 5500K white LED light? So where are the custom builders on this one? I know a few folks have some K2s stashed away they guard like Kryptonite but cannot wait for much higher output designs. As much fun as LEDs can be, Ive gotten a bit jaded and almost bored with 5 watts being the high end and cant make my heart go pitter patter about these anymore. Too much of a power junkie. The HID potential is written as the near future of very high output lights, they can easily outgun incan based on their relative efficiencty alone, and further refinements will minimize their existing drawbacks. XeVision just posted about miniaturizing ballast designs with SMDs on cicuit boards taking up 1/2 the space with 1/3 the components. I believe HID has a promising future but requires a bit of out of the box thinking to make it scaleable and marketable to a wider cross section of buyers. I'm frustrated with the current 5 watt upper limit for emitters. I also wonder about these impact tests cited as a reason for concern. 400Gs and a light still functions? Good Lord 400Gs is instantly fatal for a human body, who is anticipating subjecting their light to several thousands of decelerative Gs? That one lost me. My only statement of record is the future cant get here soon enough, I want to see fast tracking of some quantum output leaps is the non-incan realm.


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## NewBie (Dec 23, 2005)

Lunarmodule said:


> I also wonder about these impact tests cited as a reason for concern. 400Gs and a light still functions? Good Lord 400Gs is instantly fatal for a human body, who is anticipating subjecting their light to several thousands of decelerative Gs?



Taking a two hard objects, and tapping them together with your hands, can produce thousands of G forces.

Now if hard mount a bulb in a ceramic base, say a Maglite, mounted ceramic to metal body, and drop it on the concrete, the G forces on the bulb get pretty high, and it is pretty easy to pop them. And yes, different HID bulbs are built for higher and lower G-forces.

Now, if you isolate the forces, through some material that can yield, say covering the body, or with baby bumpers, or between the bulb base and flashlight body, you can lower the G forces. But you have to be careful not to set up resonances or this could be worse than what you started with.

It is pretty darn easy break HID bulbs when they are not protected. Same thing with glass bulbs. Just drop the bulb on a concrete floor from a couple of feet. You have a hard surface, the quartz, hitting another hard surface, the cement, neither which flex very much, and thus the instant deacceleration, creates thousands of G forces, breaking the quartz. Same thing goes for a glass bulb.

It is all in the design of the flashlight, to protect the HID bulb. Not too many can survive a common six foot drop test from all directions on the light to concrete. Some can't even take the three foot test in all orientations.

It is a very real concern, that can be addressed with proper design.


"An upper limit of 400G’s is the absolute maximum shock that we recommend. Any shock above that amount will either cause the lamp to go out or even breakage of the arc chamber."
http://hi-lux.com/lpd/files/applicationnotes/10 Watt Application Note 1.pdf


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## Luna (Dec 23, 2005)

*Let's get one things clear - there is no be-all, end all; no one-size-fits-all; no single "best" solution to anything, lighting included.
*

Tell that to MacGyver and his duct tape!


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## NikolaTesla (Dec 23, 2005)

Well there is always the Xenon short arc lamp. Not as efficient as HID but it's instant on and can be dimmed/controlled. A bit more applied wattage than MagLite size though . Also can be focused tighter. I think 35 to 50 watt HID gets the most for the money in the lumen dept at this point in time. I predict LED will fly past it in the near future with some unyet discovered chemical composition.

The bigger Xenon Arcs can produce more candlepower out of a bulb than anything yet. Just by nature of being easily tight focused.


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## Lunarmodule (Dec 23, 2005)

Luna said:


> *Let's get one things clear - there is no be-all, end all; no one-size-fits-all; no single "best" solution to anything, lighting included.
> *
> 
> Tell that to MacGyver and his duct tape!



Completely and utterly off-topic, but John Lennon would disagree with your statement, just plug the world "LOVE" into it as THE solution


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## idleprocess (Dec 23, 2005)

Luna said:


> *Let's get one things clear - there is no be-all, end all; no one-size-fits-all; no single "best" solution to anything, lighting included.
> *
> 
> Tell that to MacGyver and his duct tape!



MacGuyver's duct tape is actually an example of exceptionally application-specific problem-solving...


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## idleprocess (Dec 23, 2005)

NikolaTesla said:


> Well there is always the Xenon short arc lamp. Not as efficient as HID but it's instant on and can be dimmed/controlled. A bit more applied wattage than MagLite size though . Also can be focused tighter. I think 35 to 50 watt HID gets the most for the money in the lumen dept at this point in time. I predict LED will fly past it in the near future with some unyet discovered chemical composition.
> 
> The bigger Xenon Arcs can produce more candlepower out of a bulb than anything yet. Just by nature of being easily tight focused.



I'm just not sure I'd want to test the shock-resistance of a short-arc lamp ... I hear the gasses inside those bulbs are pressurized at 20 atmospheres _when cold_ and get to ~40 atmospheres when operating. They've been known to destroy stout housings if they rupture while operating and can cause serious injury if dropped.


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## NewBie (Dec 24, 2005)

NikolaTesla said:


> Well there is always the Xenon short arc lamp. Not as efficient as HID but it's instant on and can be dimmed/controlled. A bit more applied wattage than MagLite size though . Also can be focused tighter. I think 35 to 50 watt HID gets the most for the money in the lumen dept at this point in time. I predict LED will fly past it in the near future with some unyet discovered chemical composition.
> 
> The bigger Xenon Arcs can produce more candlepower out of a bulb than anything yet. Just by nature of being easily tight focused.



As you mentioned, one can always go to the D2S automotive bulbs, such as the Xenarc, Ultinon, etc.

They drop down to a 75 CRI, not much better than an LED.
(some HID and Xenon lamps drop down as low as 50 for the color rendering index, typically between 60 and 70)

Luminous Efficacy: 69 lm/W at 100 hrs (this is very important in HID, as their efficacy drops alot during it's life) 
(or you can go for the bluish white bulbs which have a 91lm/w, but a very low color rending index of only 65%)
- both of these numbers do not include the ballast efficiencies
- Both numbers drop once you include the ballast losses, and the drop can be very significant, depending on the ballast.

The fancy XENAELECTRON® Ballast made by OSRAM/Sylvania for the XenARC, which has an Efficiency of 84%, which is pretty darn good for a HID/Xenon ARC ballast.

Using this very special ballast gets you into *77.35 Lm/W* at the expense of the color rendering index (*65 CRI*) -_*worse than white LEDs*_ If you use the hard blue white high efficiency version of the D2S
- or you can use the warmer D2S, and still get *58.65* lm/W with this special ballast, and get back some CRI at 75%




Some of the lamps:
http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Spec Sheets/Philips D2S Ultinon.htm
http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Spec Sheets/Philips D2S.htm


As far as pressures, one of the Philips full D2S datasheets lists 100 bar as the operating pressures, which is 1450.377 pounds per square inch (or 1019716 kilograms per meter^2). A bulb breaking under operating conditions can be violently dangerous, and one should take care in designing an enclosure that can absorb such a tremendous force, such that the user is protected. (especially with sharp glass projectiles- yikes!)


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## markdi (Dec 24, 2005)

I have a 50 watt xenlight ballast that claims to be 91% efficient
so using it to drive my 5300 lumen at 50 watts phillips dl50 bulb

- less than 55 watts for 5300 lumens = more than 96.36 lumens per watt - including ballast losses.

I have 2 - 35 watt ballasts that draw 39 watts(fully warmed up)
powering 2 phillips dl35 bulbs - 3600 lumens at 35 watts - 92.3 lumens per watt - including ballast losses.

newbie where do you get your Luminous Efficacy data

hid has better lumen maintenance than incan - by far.
I will switch to led when a 50 watt 5300 lumen luxeon comes out.

hid lights/spotlights are a lot safer to use than my 100 horsepower atv or my kimber arms .380 super or my girlfriend.

as far as color goes Craig(led museum) would call my hid lights - WHITE - 
a lot whiter than incan.


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## That_Guy (Dec 24, 2005)

Yes Newbie where are you getting your figures from? A 4100K D2S bulb is 3200 lumens at 35W at 0 hours which is 91lm/W. Lumen maintenance at 1500 hours is 75% which gives an efficiency of 69lm/W.

The high K blueish/white bulbs have a _lower_ efficiency than the warmer white 4100K bulbs - only 2400 lumens at 35W or 69lm/W at 0 hours.


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## markdi (Dec 24, 2005)

phillips dl35 and dl50 data 

http://www.nuconverter.de/assets/mpxldl50.jpg


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## NewBie (Dec 24, 2005)

markdi said:


> I have a 50 watt xenlight ballast that claims to be 91% efficient
> so using it to drive my 5300 lumen at 50 watts phillips dl50 bulb
> 
> - less than 55 watts for 5300 lumens = more than 96.36 lumens per watt - including ballast losses.
> ...




FYI, we were talking about 35W HID, you are getting into the more efficient 50W and above HID now, and everyone knows as you go up in wattage, HID gets more efficient.

I get my data off the datasheets, and if you bothered to visit the links provided, you would have seen this too.

You should to. Here is your ballast:
http://www.xenlight.com/ballasts.html#a3

Here is the OSRAM SYLVANIA XENAELECTRON Ballast:





Here are the datasheets for the *35W* ballasts we were talking about:
http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/phid2s.pdf
http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/osramd2s.pdf
http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/ged2shid.pdf

From the Philip's datasheet, lumen maintenance:





See the following for more details on the specifics of lumen depreciation of HID bulbs, and some extra "tricks" some ballast makers (very few) do in an attempt to reduce the depreciation:
http://www.nuconverter.de/lumfluxdecreasing.html

When figuring your lm/W numbers, you do need to include your ballast efficiencies, as HID requires a ballast.

Now for numbers out the front of the light, you'd be pretty darn surprised how much loss you have in the reflector and lens...


*MarkDi*, You know that DL50 bulb (50W) you referenced?
According to the datasheet you linked...
It doesn't focus all that well, it has a *4.2mm arc length*, thus leading one to a larger reflector. The other Welch-Allyn bulb we were talking about has a *1.2mm arc length (71% smaller)*, which helps one get a tighter beam with a small reflector, for throw purposes.

Another common 12V input HID ballast that is often remarked is one made by Aromat (Panasonic/Matsushita), sometimes labeled as NAIS. It too, typically runs from 76-85% efficiency.
http://pewa.panasonic.com/lcd/products/XLBsm.pdf

I remember when you talked about measuring the input power to measure you claimed 91% efficiency on your ballast, and just figured it put out x watts. Unfortunately, a person does need to measure both the input and output wattage to determine efficiency.
http://www.xenlight.com/ballasts.html#a3


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## NewBie (Jun 27, 2006)

That_Guy said:


> Yes Newbie where are you getting your figures from? A 4100K D2S bulb is 3200 lumens at 35W at 0 hours which is 91lm/W. Lumen maintenance at 1500 hours is 75% which gives an efficiency of 69lm/W.
> 
> The high K blueish/white bulbs have a _lower_ efficiency than the warmer white 4100K bulbs - only 2400 lumens at 35W or 69lm/W at 0 hours.




See my 2nd post up, the links are given.

Also consider losses of reflector, lens, ballast...


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## markdi (Jun 27, 2006)

wow this is a old thread

hey newbie - how is the thor boost mod doing ?

you should throw 2 of them in the new vector 20,000,000
light


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## batman (Jun 27, 2006)

I think flashoholics would be the only people to prefer watching a football game or drive with headlights on LED lighting over HID lighting. I wouldn't even go so far as to say incans are _done for good_. Nor would I say LEDs are the final answer for all illumination purposes. Let's not forget candle technology either.


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## NewBie (Jun 27, 2006)

batman said:


> I think flashoholics would be the only people to prefer watching a football game or drive with headlights on LED lighting over HID lighting. I wouldn't even go so far as to say incans are _done for good_. Nor would I say LEDs are the final answer for all illumination purposes. Let's not forget candle technology either.




I supposed you missed the PR on Lexus pulling HID lighting out of certain models, replacing the old technology with something better.

Their first production vehicle with LED Low/High beams, see details below.

.... LS 600h L Hybrid Luxury Sedan, scheduled for launch in the US in Spring 2007, will be the world’s first vehicle to use LED headlamps for high-beam and low-beam functions.


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## XeRay (Jun 27, 2006)

NewBie said:


> I supposed you missed the PR on Lexus pulling HID lighting out of certain models, replacing the old technology with something better.
> 
> Their first production vehicle with LED Low/High beams, see details below.
> 
> .... LS 600h L Hybrid Luxury Sedan, scheduled for launch in the US in Spring 2007, will be the world’s first vehicle to use LED headlamps for high-beam and low-beam functions.


 
"the LS 600h L will be the world’s first vehicle to be equipped with LED headlights for nighttime and low-beam use."

What I read shows LED for running lights and low beam, not high beam. I don't believe it will ever work for high beams, at least not any time soon.

From the Toyota website.
World's first commercial application*2 of LED headlights (low beam) http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/06/0412.html


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## MillerMods (Jun 28, 2006)

XeRay said:


> "the LS 600h L will be the world’s first vehicle to be equipped with LED headlights for nighttime and low-beam use."
> 
> What I read shows LED for running lights and low beam, not high beam. I don't believe it will ever work for high beams, at least not any time soon.
> 
> ...



Check this out: http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20050622/106025/

This will change everything if nothing else.


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## XeRay (Jun 28, 2006)

MillerMods said:


> Check this out: http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20050622/106025/
> 
> This will change everything if nothing else.


 
If it has long life and they can disipate the heat. Maybe yes, maybe no, only time will tell.


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## NewBie (Jun 28, 2006)

XeRay said:


> "the LS 600h L will be the world’s first vehicle to be equipped with LED headlights for nighttime and low-beam use."
> 
> What I read shows LED for running lights and low beam, not high beam. I don't believe it will ever work for high beams, at least not any time soon.
> 
> ...




See page 2, complete with photo:
http://digitalmags.iop.org/led_01_07.pdf


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## NewBie (Jul 2, 2006)

Hella also has a prototype they did for the Volkswagen Golf 5:

"Hella’s LED headlamp achieves a level of about 1000 lumens in the low beam, and matches the light output of a xenon lamp. This is achieved using just four segments of the seven-segment lens system. All seven segments are used for the high beam. Hella’s headlamps meet SAE standards for forward lighting in the United States"
http://lfw.pennnet.com/Articles/Art...on=ARCHI&ARTICLE_ID=241158&VERSION_NUM=2&p=12


Hella recently won a top honors in Spain’s Society of Automotive Engineers (Sociedad de Técnicos de Automoción) competition in 2005, amongst a field of 87 contestants, and was presented at the Barcelona motor show. 

"Hella expects to begin production of the new LED headlamp in 2008...The award-winning design was developed in cooperation with Volkswagen for the Golf 5. It incorporates low beam, high beam, indicator and daytime running lights all implemented using LED technology."
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/news/2/8/6/1


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## markdi (Jul 2, 2006)

so how bright are these led headlight's

do they barely just meet the output spec's 

I bet hid headlights throw better and are brighter.


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## 270winchester (Jul 2, 2006)

markdi said:


> so how bright are these led headlight's
> 
> do they barely just meet the output spec's
> 
> I bet hid headlights throw better and are brighter.



did you even read Newbie's posts?

For now the HIDs are brighter and throw better, but for how much longer? 

With the advancement of LEDs and the subsequent optics research, you can easily reach the DOT requirements with multiple LED setup with the technology they have now.


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## woodrow (Jul 3, 2006)

I believe that hid's and led's will fuel the future generations of each other. I just saw Quickbeam's review of the AE shorty 24watt hid. I want one. But it would not be my daily carry light. It is still way too huge. My hid makes me keep looking for brighter and more compact led lights. I love the white beam in both, and they have me hooked on buying the next "better" light-both led and hid.

My non flashlightaholic friends are getting excited about Dorcy 3watt leds at target. They cannot believe how bright they are for their size. After they buy one, they start looking on the net for led bike lights for their night rides, and discover something called hid. They can't believe the pics posted. One friend buys one...and soon several are buying them... and it goes on..

Without leds and hid's, this obsession would not be a fun as it is. I can't wait to see the future generation on both ,since they do different things. I do not see ipods going away anytime soon. Neither do I see headphones replacing subs and center chanel speakers in home theater systems. One drives the other.


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## markdi (Jul 3, 2006)

nothing nice to read here - deleted


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