# Cree XR-E 160 lumen LED?



## VoiToi (Oct 10, 2006)

http://ledsmagazine.com/articles/news/3/10/10
They say the best bin has up to 160lm at 700mA / 3.3V, or 70lm/Watt.

I requested the led sample. If these numbers are real, I think Lumileds will have a lot to catch.


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## Manzerick (Oct 10, 2006)

WOW!!!!!

The wheel is reinvented once again! I can't wait to see these little suckahhs


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## WildChild (Oct 10, 2006)

Where did you requested a sample?


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## VoiToi (Oct 10, 2006)

WildChild said:


> Where did you requested a sample?



http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp7090_xre.asp

I'm not completely sure if they will send me anything, but there is no other way to get it now, I think.


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## Loomy (Oct 10, 2006)

VoiToi said:


> http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp7090_xre.asp
> 
> I'm not completely sure if they will send me anything, but there is no other way to get it now, I think.



Their official dealers are all getting batches in as we speak


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## Loomy (Oct 10, 2006)

PS: CR2 Ion should be able to have an XRE dropped right in, so that's best first use of one that I can think of. I'd do it if I had an Ion


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## 270winchester (Oct 10, 2006)

Loomy said:


> PS: CR2 Ion should be able to have an XRE dropped right in, so that's best first use of one that I can think of. I'd do it if I had an Ion



Endeavour should take a note of this, if it is indeed feasible. I'll be all over a true 50 lumen Ion(with typical 80 lumens at 350mAh, if that's true) in a second. the output of the Ion is what's keeping me from buying one right now, I've been waiting for the rumored storm of upcoming LEDs for a few months now...


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## metalhed (Oct 10, 2006)

I suspect that as LED efficiencies increase, the focus for flashlights will change somewhat.

Right now, most manufacturers and modders seem to be interested in the 'more power, more light' approach to flashlight building. This has led to problems with heat and problems with developing more powerful battery technologies to supply high-power LEDs...including safety problems and explosions.

As we see higher efficiencies, perhaps makers will focus on getting the most out of current battery technology. With a stated 85 lumens at 350 ma, waste heat has obviously been directed into photon creation in this new LED. That means longer LED life and longer runtimes. It also means these kinds of chips will expand the plastic/polymer bodied flashlight selection, since a heavy heatsink won't be nearly as important.

[quote:Manzerick]
WOW!!!!!

The wheel is reinvented once again!

[/quote]

That's what helps keep flashlights fun...the future!


 Shameless plug follows....you can also find the press release here:

Cree Delivers the First 160-Lumen White Power LED


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## chevrofreak (Oct 10, 2006)

Lumileds is actually way behind when it comes to efficiency, and their new K2 is a step backwards at this point. The highest binned LuxIII and LuxV's smoke the K2 for efficiency.


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## Sable (Oct 10, 2006)

Not that I have an ounce of modding skill, but I wonder what you'd have to do to get one of those buggers at work in a GatLight...

The CR2 Ion is just a little too dinky for me - are there any other good Cree lights that the XR-E might be a drop-in for?


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## josean (Oct 10, 2006)

I would like to request a sample, but after having read the elegibility criteria, I'm affraid I have no possibilities. 

I want mine too!!!!!


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## Concept (Oct 11, 2006)

Yeh I had a look too. I just don't turn over 5mil a year!


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## Julian Holtz (Oct 11, 2006)

I just ordered one here:

http://www.cutter.com.au/search.php?nobox=&scat=&stext=xlamp&stype=&sprice=&pg=3

:nana:


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 11, 2006)

cant wait till fenix/huntlight or some other china manufacturers get on these


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## BentHeadTX (Oct 11, 2006)

I have 5 of them on order and my four McR19 Flood reflectors have been shipped. Planning on running four of them in a Mag Mod at 500mA each or all four driven at 6.6 watts. Over 400 lumens at the LEDs... could not pass this one up. As long as I can focus them by screwing around with the McR19, things will get entertaining. 

Yes, I will play with the regulator to see what 700mA does


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## VoiToi (Oct 11, 2006)

Julian Holtz said:


> I just ordered one here:
> 
> http://www.cutter.com.au/search.php?nobox=&scat=&stext=xlamp&stype=&sprice=&pg=3
> 
> :nana:



WOW, they must have added it just now! I am checking this site all the time :huh: . It's a very good store I think.


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## VoiToi (Oct 11, 2006)

I can't wait, I have ordered 6 pieces.
I hope they will catch the same plane as Julian's one.


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## Julian Holtz (Oct 11, 2006)

The world is *so *small!

I just realized that VoiToi is the guy that made me find this shop:
http://www.ledstyles.de/viewtopic.php?t=387&highlight=cree
(scroll down)


(Note to self: Hitting the submit button twice causes double posts. But you can edit the post so that it looks


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## Julian Holtz (Oct 11, 2006)

as if you were just finishing the first one and hope nobody will notice.)

:lolsign: 

I hope your mentioned delivery time of 4 days has not increased 

Regards,

Julez


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## jtr1962 (Oct 12, 2006)

While this is great just wait until the improvements from Cree's 131 lm/W lab experiment trickle into production in 12 to 18 months. You'll have LEDs with 150 lumens at 350 mA and ~250 lumens at 700 mA. The good times are just getting started! :rock:


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## Lit Up (Oct 12, 2006)

metalhed said:


> It also means these kinds of chips will expand the plastic/polymer bodied flashlight selection, since a heavy heatsink won't be nearly as important.



I REALLY hope you're right about that one. Aluminum is nice and all, but we could use for a few more plastic lumens projectors.


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## ViReN (Oct 12, 2006)

jtr1962 said:


> While this is great just wait until the improvements from Cree's 131 lm/W lab experiment trickle into production in 12 to 18 months. You'll have LEDs with 150 lumens at 350 mA and ~250 lumens at 700 mA. The good times are just getting started! :rock:



I hope they make the LED's "Hand Solderable" .. perhaps may be use some sort of Copper based Stars (instead of AL)


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## VoiToi (Oct 12, 2006)

Julian Holtz said:


> I hope your mentioned delivery time of 4 days has not increased
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Julez


I think it will not really be as fast. Ben Riley from Cutter wrote:


> The XR-E's will arrive early next week, will let you know when they arrive and send them straight away.


So IMO it will take 2 weeks at least.


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## havand (Oct 12, 2006)

Ah, I've got 7 + some other random stuff on order too. It'll be a nice suprise when they show up


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## glire (Oct 12, 2006)

For those who didn't notice yet
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=128311


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 12, 2006)

WeLight says their ordering U1-0021 bin.

But from the other pdf i saw relating to output intensity bin code has codes like N4, P2/3/4 and Q2/2. Dont see any U1-0021?

Can anyone who has these share what bin codes cutter is selling?


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## Pinter (Oct 12, 2006)

U1-0021 is not the exact bin but the order number (kit number).
See docs on cree website on binning and labeling.

U1-0021 kit means that cutter will receive at least four color bins from any color, and two brightness bins (from P3, P4, Q2, Q3) within this order.


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## Loomy (Oct 12, 2006)

x2x3x2 said:


> But from the other pdf i saw relating to output intensity bin code has codes like N4, P2/3/4 and Q2/2. Dont see any U1-0021?



If you read the binning pdf, all is explained. 

You (they) order a "kit" of LEDs from Cree. This is a bulk order that includes LEDs of a certain guaranteed quality. So, for instance, the best kit might only have a couple of the best bins, because it also has a bunch of the second and third-best bins.

As such, you can expect that the official dealers like Cutter won't just hand out the best bins they get. They probably just hand them out randomly.

So to get a specific bin, you'd have to get lucky, or know someone who is prepared to buy LEDs in bulk and then sort through the whole kit to find just one special bin LED for you


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 12, 2006)

i see, thanks for clearing it up loomy.

btw would it be a simple swap for the fenix p1 since cutter is selling them on stars now?


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## Loomy (Oct 12, 2006)

x2x3x2 said:


> i see, thanks for clearing it up loomy.
> 
> btw would it be a simple swap for the fenix p1 since cutter is selling them on stars now?



Thank Pinter, he answered first 

The Fenix P1 wasn't designed for a Cree LED, so no, it probably wouldn't be a simple swap


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 12, 2006)

the current and voltage at the emmitter of the p1 seems to be within the XR-E specs, also they are on stars.

what are other things that have to be taken note of so i can run the XR-E?


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## Mike Painter (Oct 12, 2006)

Loomy said:


> So to get a specific bin, you'd have to get lucky, or know someone who is prepared to buy LEDs in bulk and then sort through the whole kit to find just one special bin LED for you



True, but note what the article says.


> Cree's new XLamp LED ... a *typical* output of 80 lm at 350 mA.
> ...
> The headline figures show a luminous flux of *up to* 95 lumens at 350 mA,...



As I've said before, as the technology matures the difference between top and bottom will shrink and the expense of binning will no longer bring an advantage.


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## Gene43 (Oct 12, 2006)

Wow! This opens a world of Possibilities.

Gene


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## Melchior (Oct 12, 2006)

*XREEEEE!*

Yeah when I first saw the spec. sheet on the XR-E (I thought heh 'E' for Experimental...perhaps by Q1 or Q2 next YEAR)

So these XREs? going for what $10, $20 apice? theres got to be some kind of catch for this kind of performance.

I think LEDs may have inherited the infamous Moore's Law.


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## havand (Oct 12, 2006)

If you buy a couple, they're <$10 a piece....

The jury is still out. Their beatpattern is different, so existing luxIII reflectors probably arn't going to work great. I bought a couple just to mess around with and try to make some unbelievably bright AA floodlights. They have a weird mounting system too. metal strips underneath to transmit the power ( or so it looks like) instead of the protruding contacts like a luxIII. They're GOING to get used if they're as good as they're supposed to be, it will just a little bit of time for someone to roll out a ligbht based on them.


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## kakster (Oct 12, 2006)

x2x3x2 said:


> the current and voltage at the emmitter of the p1 seems to be within the XR-E specs, also they are on stars.
> 
> what are other things that have to be taken note of so i can run the XR-E?




The optics.

The reflector is designed for an emitter with a lambertian (180 degree) emission. As far as i can tell, these new Crees have a 70 degree emission, and would likely produce a messy beam in the stock reflector.


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## PAB (Oct 13, 2006)

*Re: XREEEEE!*



Melchior said:


> I think LEDs may have inherited the infamous Moore's Law.



I was just thinking the same thing. And that I should wait a while before getting any more lights. Waiting for someone like Inova or even Fenix to start using the XR-E's. At this rate, I'll have to "upgrade" my lights every two years.


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## Loomy (Oct 13, 2006)

*Re: XREEEEE!*



Melchior said:


> I think LEDs may have inherited the infamous Moore's Law.



Pretty much, but it probably happened at the dawn of LED creation! 

LEDs are semiconductors, and Moore's statement decades ago was basically that the complexity of semiconductors would continue to double every year as they had already been doing in the past. Then as time went on people turned that into doubling transistor counts every 2 years. So "Moore's Law", which is really just Moore's Observation, is loose enough that you could apply it to LEDs  

LEDs are definitely advancing quickly. Certainly far quicker than any light system that anyone alive has ever seen. In 10 years my house lights will all be LEDs, and my thumb-sized pocket LED will do 200 lumens for an hour. And that could very easily be a conservative estimate! :lolsign:


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## BEpsilon (Oct 14, 2006)

josean said:


> I would like to request a sample, but after having read the elegibility criteria, I'm affraid I have no possibilities.
> 
> I want mine too!!!!!



Hopefully we will see a GB here soon?


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## AlexGT (Oct 14, 2006)

I am thinking on putting one of these in a Bulk's LH do you think that the 27 mm reflector can make a usable beam? 150 lumens sounds about right for a pocket light.


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## Concept (Oct 15, 2006)

Someone put it into a light quick and show some beamshots..... PLEASE.


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 15, 2006)

im really tempted to swap the emitter on my Huntlight FT01 with an XR-E, i know the reflector issue which have been highlighted, but would be interesting to see how it gets. will be a little overdriven tho at 770mA. have to wait till the XR-E arrives to see if i can somehow make it fit. anyone got any advice on this? or should i even try swapping it?


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## daveman (Oct 15, 2006)

As others have pointed out, reflector compatibilty is a valid concern, but I find it hard to believe that manufacturers such as SF and Mag, or evevnChinese companies like Fenix and Huntlight, have not already began their r&d centered around this new LED. I'd say within a year we'll see at least 2 product offerings from different flashlight manufacturers.


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 15, 2006)

so if i were to just do a swap, the beam would probably be all soft n floody eh ?


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## daveman (Oct 15, 2006)

I think i'll push off all of my planned LED purchases (m6 2390, U-bined FT-01, VB-16 TXOJ) and clear them out at discount prices after lights with Cree LED storm the market.


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## Loomy (Oct 15, 2006)

daveman said:


> I find it hard to believe that manufacturers such as SF and Mag, or evevnChinese companies like Fenix and Huntlight, have not already began their r&d centered around this new LED. I'd say within a year we'll see at least 2 product offerings from different flashlight manufacturers.



Every large potential customer of Cree has no doubt known about the XRE for many months. Even before XRE samples were ready, which would have been month(s) ago, anyone interested in it could have been using old 7090s for prototyping. 

So you can definitely assume that Surefire et al, have all been looking at it. Whether or not they release anything using it is another question  There are other LED manufacturers out there who also have new things in the works, too. For all we know, PK is sitting there with a 180 lumen Luxeon VI sample


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## Gnufsh (Oct 15, 2006)

x2x3x2 said:


> im really tempted to swap the emitter on my Huntlight FT01 with an XR-E, i know the reflector issue which have been highlighted, but would be interesting to see how it gets. will be a little overdriven tho at 770mA. have to wait till the XR-E arrives to see if i can somehow make it fit. anyone got any advice on this? or should i even try swapping it?


Let me know how it goes.


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## CM (Oct 15, 2006)

The XR-E works reasonably well with the KL6. 







My next project is to buy a cheap MM LED, keep the reflector, and chuck the rest away


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## monkeyboy (Oct 15, 2006)

kakster said:


> The optics.
> 
> The reflector is designed for an emitter with a lambertian (180 degree) emission. As far as i can tell, these new Crees have a 70 degree emission, and would likely produce a messy beam in the stock reflector.


 
This explains why there is a lot of sidespill and less hotspot. A deep reflector or an optic designed for the XR-E is the way to go.

EDIT: oops I'm getting confused between threads. I thought this was the XR-E in KL6 thread.


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 15, 2006)

Hows the output compared to the luxeon in kl6 head?


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## Mike Painter (Oct 16, 2006)

These lenses from Cutter look interesting. I've wondered about eliptical patterns and there seems to be some others interested also. (see the quad lens specs.) I also look at these and think "interchangable".


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## daveman (Oct 16, 2006)

Loomy said:


> There are other LED manufacturers out there who also have new things in the works, too. For all we know, PK is sitting there with a 180 lumen Luxeon VI sample


That would be something to drool over for.


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## 270winchester (Oct 16, 2006)

Loomy said:


> So you can definitely assume that Surefire et al, have all been looking at it. Whether or not they release anything using it is another question  There are other LED manufacturers out there who also have new things in the works, too. For all we know, PK is sitting there with a 180 lumen Luxeon VI sample




WHy would we drool over a 180 Lumen Lux VI when we already have W-bin Lux V(140-190 lumens)?


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## havand (Oct 16, 2006)

I've actually been suprised (very recently) to learn how efficient the luxV can be. I had always thought it was a tradeoff. Just like the k2s. More light, but MUCH more power. Now after recently reading a few things in the custom forums, i'm rethinking that. I can't wait to get these cree led's just because It will be viable competition for lumileds. Maybe we'll finally see some motivation for higher than U-bin LuxIII's?


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## daveman (Oct 16, 2006)

270winchester said:


> WHy would we drool over a 180 Lumen Lux VI when we already have W-bin Lux V(140-190 lumens)?


If something can give off 180 lumens per watt, I'd drool.


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## KROMATICS (Oct 16, 2006)

Loomy said:


> So you can definitely assume that Surefire et al, have all been looking at it. Whether or not they release anything using it is another question  There are other LED manufacturers out there who also have new things in the works, too. For all we know, PK is sitting there with a 180 lumen Luxeon VI sample



Perhaps Surefire has an exclusive contract with Philips/Lumileds as their LED source?


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## Pinter (Oct 16, 2006)

Last week I asked Polymer Optics, how the old Cree XR optics behave with the new, narrower XR-E led.

Here is the answer.

"Hi Ferenc,

Thank you for your enquiry to POL regarding our LED optic solutions.

Yes, the beam angle of our current optics with the Cree LED's was wider than with other LED types, due to the larger effective emission size of the die in the Cree LED's. The new XR-E devices correct this and we are planning to bring out a new range of optics for the XR-E, but Cree have given us a big problem here!! The new XR-E die has an effective emission position further back inside the package, but we physically cannot move our current optics far enough back to maintain the correct focus. This means we are completely re-designing and re-making tooling for the XR-E.

We do not expect this to be completed until early in the new year 2007. However, we expect that the beam angles will be <+/-6 degrees, due to the narrower output beam of the XR-E.

Best regards,

Mike Hanney CEng MinstP MSc
Technical Director
Polymer Optics Limited
http://www.polymer-optics.co.uk
"


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## lyyyghtmaster (Oct 16, 2006)

Oh boy, oh boy, count me in for some of these XR-Es as well!:naughty:


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## Mike Painter (Oct 16, 2006)

270winchester said:


> WHy would we drool over a 180 Lumen Lux VI when we already have W-bin Lux V(140-190 lumens)?


Two reasons. The main one is that binning represents poorer technology.
The process is designed to put out a product with a single value and anything above or below that is a mistake. The spread on the crees show that they are getting better and in a couple generations binning will be gone.
The same thing happened in the CPU industry in the early days.

Since an X bin is rarer than a W bin it is safer to guess that you have a much greater chance of getting a W near 140 than 190. 
(The same is true of the cree but the news release points out a very small spread between the average and the maximum so you would be looking at 160 to 180.)
The odds on the roulette wheel got better for us.

The third of the two reasons is that this means lower cost per lumen.


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## MikeRD03 (Oct 17, 2006)

It would be interesting how a Cree XR-E LED is goning with one of the McR reflectors. Are reflectors suitable for a LEDs with 70 degree beam pattern?

Cheers,
MikeRD03


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 17, 2006)

has anyone recieved their XR-E yet? its taking kinda long to ship...


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## Pinter (Oct 18, 2006)

IIRC shipment from cree to cutter was expected on the third week of October. Maybe the parts are not even at cutter.


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## havand (Oct 18, 2006)

If you're talking about receiving them from cutter, in the CREE sales thread in the dealer's section it was stated they wouldn't be shipping til the 20th or something. Over there now, Welight just updated that they're shipping the 23rd from cutter and the 17th from the factory. So, people should start getting them the 1st week of november?


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## Pinter (Oct 19, 2006)

Cree XR-E is available in Hungary. 
Cree's claim of "typical 80lm" was fulfilled.
The distributor received bin code:

XR7090WT-U1-WC-P4 
P4: 80.6-87.4 LM @ 350mA
WC: color something like X0 of Luxeon III


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 19, 2006)

excellent that these are rolling out, cant wait till large scale and CHEAP manufacturers pick up the pace with these


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## CaLux (Oct 20, 2006)

i received the notice said next Monday will be shipped
but only 62-76 lumens /350mA
Don't why, they said that only available


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## CaLux (Oct 20, 2006)

sorry, double uploaded


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## CaLux (Oct 20, 2006)

Pinter said:


> Cree XR-E is available in Hungary.
> Cree's claim of "typical 80lm" was fulfilled.
> The distributor received bin code:
> 
> ...



Can I order from your country
I am in USA


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## havand (Oct 20, 2006)

Did you order from cutter? Their bin was much better than that if i remember....Are you sure you tried to order the XR-E? Not just the regular XR?


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## CaLux (Oct 21, 2006)

I ordered from ETG
They asked mini $50 per order
But 
the lumens make me disappoint


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## Szemhazai (Oct 23, 2006)

Upss - sorry bad plot


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## McGizmo (Oct 23, 2006)

Concept said:


> Someone put it into a light quick and show some beamshots..... PLEASE.









On the left is a Cree XR-E driven at ~ 750 mA (1x123) behind a modified McR-19 reflector, on the right, a SF L6 (5W Luxeon ~ 900 mA - 3x123)

Outside comparison:






Above is the L6 (tree is ~ 33' away) Below is the mCree A19-XR-E






I selected the L6 as a comparison because it has the closest beam pattern and distribution to the A19-XR-E. The lights are placed on a porch rail post and visible in the lower right of each image.

I have a proto PD-XR-E with a LED driven at ~ 520 mA and it is identical to the human eye to another L6 I compared it to. (The L6 shown here was later modified to host a XR-E LED)

I hope to document some more sample lights and beam shots as time permits. 

Any reflector based XR-E host will have a spill beam that is unrivaled by a comparable Luxeon set up. The intensity of the spot will depend on the depth of the reflector relative to its focal length. You need a narrow exit angle to harness some of the light being delivered in the narrow viewing angle of the XR-E. In the two lights compared above, the XR-E out fluxes as well as lut luxes the L6. YMMV.

As to 160 Lumen LED, I would guess these are still to come but I have already seen a couple lights that exceed 100 lumens out the front end, net of losses to optic and window. :thumbsup:


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## Loomy (Oct 23, 2006)

A+


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## Nitroz (Oct 23, 2006)

Those shots are awesome! This is the exact type of light I want to carry. From the looks of your shots, the Cree has a bright spot and some really good spill light also especially coming from such a small reflector.


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## vic303 (Oct 23, 2006)

Youch! What's the runtime on that Cree in 1x123 mode primary?


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## Mike Painter (Oct 23, 2006)

I think "Drool" is the phrase I'm looking for.

When I stare at the L6 photo an interesting thing happens. It seems to get markedly dimmer.

(And for those that saw this before I edited it, all I can say is oops.)


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## stoven (Oct 23, 2006)

So has anyone found a U.S. source for these?


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## Nitroz (Oct 23, 2006)

Yes. I am waiting to be contacted once they get their shipment.


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## pianoman (Oct 23, 2006)

This is a quantum leap up the LED Curve....now tested in an earthquake torn environment!


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## BigHonu (Oct 23, 2006)

McGizmo said:


> On the left is a Cree XR-E driven at ~ 750 mA (1x123) behind a modified McR-19 reflector, on the right, a SF L6 (5W Luxeon ~ 900 mA - 3x123)
> 
> Outside comparison:
> 
> ...




Again, WOW!


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## easilyled (Oct 23, 2006)

Bleedin' Norah, as the Brits would say!

That makes one want to rip out all one's existing led's and reflectors and 
replace them with XRE's. (or sell one's entire collection)

 

On the other hand its exciting to be witnessing a new generation of led's in 
terms of efficiency (lumens/watt)

It probably means that batteries and thermal considerations will be able to 
change too.


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## IsaacHayes (Oct 23, 2006)

Don, most excellent shots there! Looks like a real winner once we get some good reflectors made and hosts. You obviously have the jump with the 19mm there, as I don't know anyone else who has made a _reflector_ to work with the cree. A beam of an L6 from a small head, pretty awesome. Some larger reflectors could have the potiential to out throw a lux3 in a mag reflector, since there is extra lumens there, if one can have a deep enough reflector to capture them. I very much like a small light with the beam you posted, but also like larger lights with lots of runtime and a needle beam for reaching out and touching people/UFO's/etc are a must for one's collection as well. 

I wonder if Fenix could put one of these in a AAA light and drive it at a modest level? That would be very interesting! A light with tons more lumens than an arcAAA premium, but with the same runtime!


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## Reima (Oct 23, 2006)

McGizmo said:


> On the left is a Cree XR-E driven at ~ 750 mA (1x123) behind a modified McR-19 reflector, on the right, a SF L6 (5W Luxeon ~ 900 mA - 3x123)


Was the reflector modified by removing 0.030" from the rear?
RC


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## thefish (Oct 23, 2006)

stoven said:


> So has anyone found a U.S. source for these?


 
I was talking to ledsupply and they told me they would probably have them in 2 or 3 weeks and they will come on some kind of PCB but not sure what kind yet.


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## Kryosphinx (Oct 23, 2006)

Wow.


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## ICUDoc (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey McGizmo

Wow to the beanshots!
I also am interested inthe mods needed for the McR19 as I have a couple, and the XR-Es are en route?
Many thanks


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## BentHeadTX (Oct 24, 2006)

I have five of those things coming and four more of the Q3WC bin (94 to 100 lumens at 350mA) when they become available. 

Glad I have four McR19 reflectors in my bench drawer! Those things might be in short supply quickly. Great job, Don!


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 24, 2006)

surefire might have some problems if they continue to stick with Luxeons


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## Pinter (Oct 24, 2006)

[XR7090WT-U1-WC-P4]
(P4: 80.6-87.4 LM @ 350mA; WC: color something like X0 of Luxeon III)



CaLux said:


> Can I order from your country
> I am in USA


I think they don't ship internationally (at least credit card or paypal does not work)
Distributor is available at info at chipcad.hu


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## havand (Oct 24, 2006)

Those pics certainly show the stark contrast in light from an incan vs an led. I guess you just don't get that 'richness' because of the lack of output spectrum?


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## jtice (Oct 24, 2006)

Well, I must admit, I can see what you thought that,
that L6 is very warm tinted, buts not an Incan 
Its a Lux5 LED.

But you do have a point about color spectrums, etc.
I have noticed that a slightly warm tinted LED looks much better outdoors than a stark white LED.
But theres a fine line, as with anything else.

The XR-E looks really promising, that is just devastating the L6.

~John


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## David_Web (Oct 24, 2006)

Any tests with NX05?


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## havand (Oct 24, 2006)

jtice said:


> Well, I must admit, I can see what you thought that,
> that L6 is very warm tinted, buts not an Incan
> Its a Lux5 LED.
> 
> ...



WOW. Yeah. Ummmmm, hmmm. We'll chalk that one up to being 'tired'. I'm gonna go hide in a dark corner now and pretend flashlight don't exist for a while...


I can't believe I said that. Argh. *sigh* In retrospect, i DO know it's a lux...I just couldn't tell you what i was thinking  Thanks for correcting me.


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## wquiles (Oct 24, 2006)

Nice beamshots - thanks much Don 

Will


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## RCatR (Oct 24, 2006)

I'm not quite clear on how the positive and negative leads would be attached to the power source? On top or on bottom of the LED?


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## marxs (Oct 24, 2006)

great beamshots, nice to know theres a possibility of a pd-xre.


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## ViReN (Oct 24, 2006)

McGizmo said:


> <snip>*As to 160 Lumen LED*, I would guess these are still to come but *I have already seen a couple lights that exceed 100 lumens out the front end*, net of losses to optic and window.



Means (if ever) NovaTac/HDS makes it to public release of (presumably Luxeon Based) U85, it will already be outdated... wondering what would happen to Luxeon K2 based like's of...... K2's are already a step backwards... in certain ways... 

One big question.... Will New Arc LS be based on Cree XR-E ?  ...hint... hint...


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## Julian Holtz (Oct 24, 2006)

RCatR said:


> I'm not quite clear on how the positive and negative leads would be attached to the power source? On top or on bottom of the LED?


 
Please check this thread:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=136984&page=1&pp=50

:candle:


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## mobile1 (Oct 24, 2006)

It seems to me that the larger die of the cree should make it much harder to focus the light. Personally I think Lumen measurement is less important than lux (hotspot brightness)... a light will be perceived as brighter if it has a brighter hotspot and not more lumen. The deciding factor Cree vs Lumileds will be what's the system's hotspot brightness (led and both with a 17+/-mm optics) will be like.

I think most people associate the "double efficiency" with twice the brightness. However optical performance and lumen maintenance in relation to die temperature and a variety of factors can change the picture very very fast, just ask Lumileds with their K2.

Apparently huge numbers of k2 have been backordered based on their initial marketing spec sheets - we all know how K2s perform vs. Lux III. 

My assumption is that these backorders put a lot pressure on to Cree, I hope they didn't retalliate with an equally fabolous spec sheet. We hope we can get a setup LED plus lens in for some testing.


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## SuperTorch (Oct 24, 2006)

Fenix P1 with a Cree XR-E 750ma should be a mind blowing pocket rocket. Can't wait till the manufacuters start to use them, Headlamps should benifit greatly.


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## IsaacHayes (Oct 24, 2006)

The luxV does look very warmer. However cameras play tricks and it could be a greenie even. No less it's probably exagerated than what you see in real life. I find the whiter cree in that photo easier to see. Why? Well the top luxV tint seems to make the tree and background all blendtogether. It lacks contrast and looks like a muddy mess to me. The cree picture seems to make the tree pop out from the background dirt more.


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## SuperTorch (Oct 24, 2006)

Luxeon V is being fed 20% more power too, I'd say from the screens the Cree XR-E are living up to thier promise and at least they are not just a little step forward but are obvious to even nuby eyes.


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 24, 2006)

IsaacHayes said:


> The luxV does look very warmer. However cameras play tricks and it could be a greenie even. No less it's probably exagerated than what you see in real life. I find the whiter cree in that photo easier to see. Why? Well the top luxV tint seems to make the tree and background all blendtogether. It lacks contrast and looks like a muddy mess to me. The cree picture seems to make the tree pop out from the background dirt more.




Actually camera's dont exagerate, in fact in real life your eye actually "white balance" things automatically depending on your surrounding or the temperature of light which u have been exposed to. The camera (assuming they have been locked to the same setting for both shots) shows a pretty accurate difference in both color temp and true brightness difference.


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## Ikonomi (Oct 24, 2006)

Wow. That Cree beamshot is sex.

The spill is slightly narrower than the LuxV but even more intense... And the LuxV has been the spill king for a while.

You know, this reminds me of AMD vs Intel a while back: Efficient Athlon K7s and K8s vs high-clocked, power-hungry Pentiums. If this new XR-E grabs enough market- and mind-share, maybe it will spur Lumileds to innovate a little more and eventually release the Intel Core 2 Duo of high-powered LEDs. 

By the way... I wonder what the XR-E would look like behind an McR-27L.


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## McGizmo (Oct 24, 2006)

> The camera (assuming they have been locked to the same setting for both shots) shows a pretty accurate difference in both color temp and true brightness difference.



Same manual shutter and F stop used for both images.


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## AlexGT (Oct 24, 2006)

I second that! Please If someone has that reflector and led post a beamshot pic, maybe compared with a lux 3 with a 27 IMS or MCR reflector for beam hotspot size reference. 



Ikonomi said:


> I wonder what the XR-E would look like behind an McR-27L.


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## IsaacHayes (Oct 24, 2006)

x2x3x2, true, I meant that your eyes don't see such a drastic difference, and yeah, looking at one color then at another can really confuse things! And of course cameras can do weird things too if not set on the right balance, I saw a show where florecent lights looked straight blue!!

I personaly cant wait to see where these leds go as far as reflectors/hosts... b/c I don't have the stuff to be the tester!!


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## AlexGT (Oct 24, 2006)

I compared the Mcr-19 and Mcr - 27L and seems that the 27L might focus the cree led in a decent beam, I enlarged the 19 to the 27L size keeping the aspect ratio and as you can see the curvature seems almost the same only the 19 being a bit deeper by about 5mm. can someone test the 27L with the cree led? 

I have a question, How hard can you run these leds? Can they take a Li-ion direct drive? or do we have to have a current regulator in place?

The Mcr-27 in the picture is really the Mcr-27 "L", my bad.


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## Miracle (Oct 25, 2006)

r the 160 lumens version available yet?

I take it that you guyz r modding your torch with this new LED?

any souls here mode 1 in an L4?

:huh2:


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## McGizmo (Oct 25, 2006)

AlexGT,
I am not sure where you are going with the scaling of the reflectors because their actual size is critical since the LED image and size doesn't scale.

The McR-19 has a focal point behind the rear of the reflector and yet it needs to be even further back for the XR-E. The McR-27L has a focal point inside of the reflective chamber and it needs to have the XR-E "come inside". In the pic below, you can see a modified 27L adjusted to manage the XR-E seen behind it:







I would guess you can get a lux of between 4500 and 6500 depending on LED and drive current. With the 27LT-XR you do get a sizeable gain in lux over the Luxeon version but the real gain is in the spill and a transition area or "ghost" of light beyond the spot itself. (kind of like a beam from a luxeon side emitter).

Take any existing Luxeon based light and imagine removing the dome from the Luxeon and exposing the actual die. Now imagine placing the Cree XR-E on top of the Luxeon die (stacked). Now consider where that puts the XR-E relative to the optic because now it is essentially in focus. In many reflectors, most of your reflector is now behind the XR-E and not doing anything for you. Further, if you picture a 75 degree cone coming from the base of the Cree LED and going forward, that cone may for the most part not be in contact with the reflector. The reflector is not doing anything for you. In the case of a Luxeon based lens optic, you have just placed the Cree inside the plastic which doesn't work either. With a 75 degree viewing angle, if you want to go with a lens, you might just go with a lens only and no TIR element at all. :shrug:

The narrow viewing angle presents new considerations. Typically, the light LED light source is aimed forward. We have seen some effective rearward facing emitter packages like the Pelican Recoil. One can also go sideways. :thinking: I have some interesting prototypes that are sideshooters and I think there is justification for exploring this further; especially for applications where an asymetric beam and spill may have merit. I have some ideas for head lamps either on a vehicle or person's head which might benefit from a different distribution of light apart from one that is symetrical about the Z axis. I would think the concept is rather obvious once you start considering the nature of the beast but maybe I should get some images and examples posted before someone claims it as IP. :green:

These new LED's are exciting and it has been frustrating not talking about them but with a vested interest as a builder, some things need to wait..  Time to get back to the bench and hopefully camera in the next couple days. :wave:


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## pokkuhlag (Oct 25, 2006)

SuperTorch said:


> Luxeon V is being fed 20% more power too, I'd say from the screens the Cree XR-E are living up to thier promise and at least they are not just a little step forward but are obvious to even nuby eyes.



It's worse than that, luxV is fed with 17% more current. But with the Vf of luxV being around 6-7V and the Vf of Cree XRE being 3-4V. The luxV could be using 50% more power. Any measurements of the Vf?


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## McGizmo (Oct 25, 2006)

As I recall, the XR 19 proto shown in the beam shots was just shy of 2.5 watts whereas the 5W was probably closer to 6 watts. I believe you are seeing more flux from the XR-E with less than half the power.


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## havand (Oct 25, 2006)

The sad picture i'm getting is that short of just dropping one of these led's in for a 'flood type' beam, these things are useless in existing lights. Even with reflector replacements, it isn't going to happen because of the dimensions of current reflectors?


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## McGizmo (Oct 25, 2006)

Existing LED lights are designed around the Luxeon package and a lambertian output. The XR-E deviates enough to present a real challenge here. Modifying an existing LED light to host a XR-E is similar to back when we were modifying incan lights to host LED's and converters. There will be some viable hosts that will accept a new LED and optic and many that won't pan out. We have not seen yet what any of lens or TIR optics for the XR-E are about and these will be parts available for use. :shrug: The game has just entered a new realm and the XR-E's die is currently available in a less than optimal package for retro fitting.


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## xr4fun (Oct 25, 2006)

I'm by no means an expert here, but I though since we are talking about using existing lights and reflectors as hosts for this new LED I would throw this out there. 

How would the reflector in the Streamlight PP 4AA Lux work? It has a reflector that is extremely deep for it's diameter. I don't know if it is cone shaped or parabolic, but if depth is important it just might work. I haven't taken mine apart(recently) to see how easy it would be to replace the emitter. Anyone want to try it?


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## IsaacHayes (Oct 25, 2006)

Great info as always Don! Can't wait to see the results of your experiments!!!


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## FrogsInWinter (Oct 26, 2006)

Hehe, WiseLED should make a new version of their tactical light with these new Cree LEDs instead of the K2s. I'm sure it would last longer than 5 minutes to 50% on high. But I'd be more that happy with a revised ElektroLumens Little Friend with 3 Cree XR-Es  . Oh well a guy can dream.:sigh:


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## Pinter (Oct 26, 2006)

[Out-of-box Cree XR-E Vf measurements]
100 mA - 2,94 V
175 mA - 3,05 V
350 mA - 3,24 V
500 mA - 3,34 V
700 mA - 3,49 V
1000 mA - 3,59 V

I used nFlex for testing.


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## slarty bartfast (Oct 26, 2006)

Finally got a XR-E sample from Cree today (P3 WG tint) and was dying to try it in something.....I stuck it in a Luxogen LR12W....it was a pain in the #$%[email protected]^ but it did finally go in ok, the aluminium ring around the XR-E lens fits perfectly to the reflector and the height is the right match. .......results:- as expected a donut hole and some artifacts, but heaps brighter than the Lux III on a 3V primary cell and it doesn't get anywhere near as warm. Just wish i could find a more suitable reflector for it (the reflector/ driver / led assembly can be backed out a few turns without disrupting on/off operation, so a deeper reflector would be a viable proposition), however, i will be leaving the XR-E in it.


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## IsaacHayes (Oct 26, 2006)

I think the cree needs to move up farther in the reflector (or most) to be in the sweet spot. I sure am getting excited over these, it's like a LuxV that can run on a single cell! (small form factor!) and in larger lights, it's like a luxV with a tighter beam! Or a lux3 output at lux1 wattage..


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## Ilikeshinythings (Oct 26, 2006)

very nice!


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## Lit Up (Oct 27, 2006)

xr4fun said:


> I'm by no means an expert here, but I though since we are talking about using existing lights and reflectors as hosts for this new LED I would throw this out there.
> 
> How would the reflector in the Streamlight PP 4AA Lux work? It has a reflector that is extremely deep for it's diameter. I don't know if it is cone shaped or parabolic, but if depth is important it just might work. I haven't taken mine apart(recently) to see how easy it would be to replace the emitter. Anyone want to try it?



I'd be real interested to see if it would work in the 1xAA tasklight. The bezel on it is nothing but reflector. The LED sits in the back at the beginning of it which is over an inch in depth.

A few shots of the reflector removed.


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## Flea Bag (Oct 27, 2006)

Could someone discuss the efficiency characteristics of the Cree versus a efficient low-power LED like a Nichia? Or perhaps versus a Lux III at very low current like driven by a Gladius on low...


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## jtr1962 (Oct 27, 2006)

Flea Bag said:


> Could someone discuss the efficiency characteristics of the Cree versus a efficient low-power LED like a Nichia? Or perhaps versus a Lux III at very low current like driven by a Gladius on low...


See this thread. I tested mostly 5mm LEDs but also a Q-bin Luxeon and a Seoul Semiconductor 1 watt LED. The Cree XR-E actually matches my best efficiency results for 5mm LEDs when run at 350 mA or less. This is a quantum leap compared to anything so far.

Although not mentioned in this thread so far, I think it's pretty safe to say the Luxeon V is now finally 100% obsolete since the Cree XR-E can better its output on way less power _and_ more importantly at way less cost. My only question now is where can you get these and for how much? The "typical" ones I'm talking about, not the premium output or tint bins.


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 27, 2006)

My XR-E from a 0021 (73.9-100.4 @ 350mA) batch is a little cool blue.
How are the tints on the ones u got?


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## Flea Bag (Oct 27, 2006)

jtr1962 said:


> See this thread. I tested mostly 5mm LEDs but also a Q-bin Luxeon and a Seoul Semiconductor 1 watt LED. The Cree XR-E actually matches my best efficiency results for 5mm LEDs when run at 350 mA or less. This is a quantum leap compared to anything so far.
> 
> Although not mentioned in this thread so far, I think it's pretty safe to say the Luxeon V is now finally 100% obsolete since the Cree XR-E can better its output on way less power _and_ more importantly at way less cost. My only question now is where can you get these and for how much? The "typical" ones I'm talking about, not the premium output or tint bins.



Thank you for the link! The graphs were revealing.

I think we'll have to leave it to time to tell whether or not the Lux V is obsolete or just 'different' like some members may argue. The Cree does have a narrower beam which may see it used in slightly different applications as far as flashlights are concerned and the many different 'bins' of the Luxeons may have both bad and good points.

Lets hope Cree's competition will improve the quality and technology of Luxeons without forcing them into too much financial trouble.


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## MillerMods (Oct 27, 2006)

I gotta say, I haven't been this excited about an LED ever.... Just imagine what the future holds though. These Cree are about 21-25% efficient. Can you image what a 50% efficient LED will be like? Simply amazing. 

My 1XAAA mods will have a huge wow factor with the XR-E. I'm 99% sure I can trim these down to fit an Arc AAA. 100 lumens for 30 minutes from a single NIMH AAA cell with a premium binned XR-E. WOW!


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## Spordin (Oct 27, 2006)

> I'm 99% sure I can trim these down to fit an Arc AAA. 100 lumens for 30 minutes from a single NIMH AAA cell with a premium binned XR-E. WOW!



MM, gettin pumped just thinkin about it :rock:


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## CM (Oct 27, 2006)

x2x3x2 said:


> My XR-E from a 0021 (73.9-100.4 @ 350mA) batch is a little cool blue.
> How are the tints on the ones u got?



Do you know what bin you got? 0021 is an order code (not a bin code) that encompasses everything from the chromaticity region and flux bins from a P3 all the way up to the unobtanium Q3.


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 27, 2006)

CM said:


> Do you know what bin you got? 0021 is an order code (not a bin code) that encompasses everything from the chromaticity region and flux bins from a P3 all the way up to the unobtanium Q3.



yup i know, thats why i asked what are the tints like on the ones u guys got from a 0021 batch?

on the invoice from Cutter, it says "U-bin"? i didnt know XR-E had U-bins?
their flux are signified with "P" and "Q" and tints are 2-letter codes like "W-something"?


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## CM (Oct 27, 2006)

x2x3x2 said:


> yup i know, thats why i asked what are the tints like on the ones u guys got from a 0021 batch?
> 
> on the invoice from Cutter, it says "U-bin"? i didnt know XR-E had U-bins?
> their flux are signified with "P" and "Q" and tints are 2-letter codes like "W-something"?



You are right, there is no U bin. It is an order code which encompasses several flux bins and several tint bins. Look at page 5 on the link below and it shows the order codes which is basically a "kit" of various bins. Page 4 is a graphical presentation of where the tint bins lie relative to Planckian.

 Cree XR-E binning and labeling 

Does the order from cutter indicate what flux you got (P3-4, Q1-3) or what tint (WB, WC, etc.)?


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## Chriss (Oct 28, 2006)

As i know Cutter received only P3 bin, and no Qbin available anywhere right now.


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## David_Web (Oct 31, 2006)

How about the Heliotek?
If it works that would be impressive.
http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/heliotek_hte-1rev2.htm


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## WeLight (Oct 31, 2006)

We are shipping WC-P3 bins, the U refers to Uniform Small Size die

We have a Q3 bin on order, unconfirmed at this point

Cheers
WL


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## pilou (Oct 31, 2006)

I have been to busy lately to read many threads. But are these Crees coming soon on mid grade lights or are they still a year or two in the future? here is what I am getting to: they seem great, but if it means not buying ANY new light for a long time, they will have to buy some non-Cree lights until the Crees hit the market in large numbers  Even a pseud-flashoholic like me cannot wait too long


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## mypalthetortoise (Oct 31, 2006)

Link posted abv. is for the XR series.
The XR-E is here: http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLamp7090XR-E_B&L.pdf


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