# Superlights Shootout II



## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 17, 2004)

In preperation for Super Lights Shootout II, our first two contestants have arrived...


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## cy (Dec 17, 2004)

whoooaaa .... that's a lot-O-lumens


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## Roy (Dec 17, 2004)

oooooooooooh!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wow.gif

You're going to need a volume discount on 123 batteries!


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## StEaLtH_ (Dec 17, 2004)

Sweetah /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


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## Ginseng (Dec 17, 2004)

.


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 17, 2004)

HOLY &#$% /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif!!!!!! This is gonna be good. I've wanted to see the Croc.1 in action for a while. Good luck! Oh ya, u might want to get some radiation resistant material for your targets!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif

C ya,
Baker


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 17, 2004)

Should we let this guy play too? After all, the battery isn't self contained ...





Havis Shields CD-RH-HID35W


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## markdi (Dec 17, 2004)

a hid thor should be included


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## greenLED (Dec 17, 2004)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/au.gif This is gonna be fun!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## bwaites (Dec 17, 2004)

Ginseng, 

What if we send him the ugly duckling?

Especially if he is going to use that Havis Shields light?

Bill


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## iddibhai (Dec 17, 2004)

what is croc 1? this is the first i've seen and read about it.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 17, 2004)

Word just in...

KENSHIRO will be lend his expertise in this production...

On a side note, the X990 is holding out for more charging time (wants 6 hours, but we only offered 4 hours) and THOR is trying to qualify as the only incandescant in the field of competitors....


Bring on the THOR HID !!!


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## markdi (Dec 17, 2004)

wish I lived near you then I would show up with my black hid thor.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 17, 2004)

there's always fedex... I'll share the freight (remember, it's for all of CPF as a comminity)


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 17, 2004)

I second that notion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Christo_pull_hair.gif Living close would be good. Oh ya, let the Havis-Shields in!!! It would be the deciding factor on my purchase of one of them if I could see it in action!!! Good Luck!!!

C ya,
Baker


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## Mark2 (Dec 17, 2004)

How about including an M6 HOLA for comparison?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanks.gif for doing the shootout!


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## bwaites (Dec 17, 2004)

MrTedBear,

Do you want a couple incandescents?

If so, the boosted Thor from Newbie and the "Ugly Duckling" might be fun for you.

However, they will BOTH toast the 35 Watt HIDS.

Bill


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## greenLED (Dec 17, 2004)

Don't forget "The Sleeper"!


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 17, 2004)

you send them..... we'll shoot them


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## Ginseng (Dec 17, 2004)

No doubt, Bill. I have my money on the Sleeper for overall output winner. The "Fugly Duckling" as #2 in output and throw (unless the second body is ready) and the HID Blitz as the throw champ. The HID Thor is most definitely a contender as well. The Maxa, well, that's a throw-machine in its own class.

It would satisfy me to no end to see some new examples of CPF-member work crush production lights. 

Wilkey


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## bwaites (Dec 17, 2004)

Wilkey,

The second body could be finished in a couple hours of work, but I need those extra bulbs

The "Fugly Duckling" won't have that supertight beam, but probably is actually more workable than several of those lights, while maybe not as convenient.

The Maxa and the Sleeper should blow everything else AWAY, though.

Did you have the Sleeper at the meet?

Bill


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## Ginseng (Dec 17, 2004)

The Sleeper was not there. Would have been cool though.

I'll get my last two bulbs out to you. When you need more, I'll get you the best site to order from. Only a few bucks a piece.

Wilkey


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## BVH (Dec 17, 2004)

Is there a thread for the thor HID mod? I'm on Newbie's list for a couple of boards but i'd also like to do an HID mod if not too difficult.

Didn't see any answers as to what the Croc light is?


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 17, 2004)

Gentleman:

The light to "beat" isn't an HID, but instead a lowly incan aka Ken-4.

You know the Ken4... 24 volt / 250 watt / 10,000 lumens in a nifty banana vector case....


Let the games begin....


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## Ginseng (Dec 17, 2004)

Hey,

Incans are never lowly...except when they're stock. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif The guys who were at PhotonFest3 saw the 10kLu power that BWaites built. It was cute and fugly but just eye-crushingly bright. 25 minutes worth of stunning. However, if the Sleeper makes an appearance, it will reign. Let there be no doubt about this.

The state of the art marches on and still, in terms of portable lighting, incan is a very viable technology. But even I acknowldge that yesterday's one-off, cutting edge may be today's "PayPal Sent." 

Still, that doesn't mean showdowns like this aren't fun. In fact, I wish I could attend.

Wilkey


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## tvodrd (Dec 17, 2004)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif (And trying to _learn.)_ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Larry


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## S4MadMan (Dec 17, 2004)

Wow! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Catdaddy (Dec 17, 2004)

I have a Croc 1 coming before noon Saturday! I can't wait.

I have three HIDs of my own as well as a Thor to compare. We'll have to compare notes.
John


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## Sway (Dec 18, 2004)

'


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 18, 2004)

Sway

Got a bunch of holiday stuff this weekend and next; hoping to do the actual shoot middle of the week, and write up between xmas and new years


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## Crosman451 (Dec 18, 2004)

Hey Jeff,

PM me with your address as to where you want the "Sleeper" shipped. That is if you want to include it in this shoot-out?


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 18, 2004)

Knew you would show up soon Crosman. Now don't beat everything else to badly /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## BVH (Dec 18, 2004)

Still hoping that someone will give some info on the Crocodile 1.


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## udaman (Dec 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*BVH said:*
Still hoping that someone will give some info on the Crocodile 1. 

[/ QUOTE ]

BVH, I hate TW website cause it is very slow to load & sometimes crashes my older version of Apple's html 1.1 compliant (but not for IExploder/Winblows, error-handling of non-standardized coded, websites) browser. Sorry none of the more jaded/experienced CPF members would not give you any links (they expect you to do a search, at least they could have mentioned it was made by Wolf-Eyes /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif )

Page may take a long time to load but here's the link for you, scroll to bottom of the page. 
http://www.tacticalwarehouse.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=TW&Category_Code=WE

There was a thread started by TW in the Dealer's forum you must have missed. Crocodile is a Wolf-Eyes HID powered by rechargeable Li-Ion batteries (from the same company that makes the Pila Li_ion).
TW's page for the $1,299 Crocodile 1 (note 40w HID is not standard automobile HID 35w output, so they must be slightly overdriving the ballast, or have a proprietary ballast that does so).

Here's a link to the Wolf-Eyes website describing the lights(pic in upper left corner is of an older bodystyle 35w HID, not sure if it made it into production):

http://www.wolf-eyes.com/Wolf-Eyes/hid01.htm


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## SilverFox (Dec 18, 2004)

Hello BVH,

Check it out here. 

Dan at Tactical Warehouse got an order of these in. I don't know if he has any left.

The Dragon I looks interesting as well.

Tom


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## BVH (Dec 18, 2004)

Thank you udaman! I appreciate the guidance.


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## udaman (Dec 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Mr Ted Bear said:*
Word just in...

KENSHIRO will be lend his expertise in this production...

On a side note, the X990 is holding out for more charging time (wants 6 hours, but we only offered 4 hours) and THOR is trying to qualify as the only incandescant in the field of competitors....


Bring on the THOR HID !!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

MrTB,

What does this 6hrs v 4hrs thing mean? Some new requirement that charger supplied with the light must complete the full charge in 4hrs? Can't you just use a RC type charger if you need it charged faster?

Umm, if you intended to receive entries from all over the country, mod'd lights; why such short notice on this? Kind of like Ginseng's recent GB on 4ah AeroNiMH 1/2D's, this hardly gives anyone a chance if they don't jump on it *immediately*...is there some reason for the rush in timing? Shipping the week before Christmas, I hope this does not result in damaged or lost items, that would be unfortunate.

Any chance of rescheduling, as there have been quite a few new mod's available since the last Shootout. 

Any chance of doing the same location/distance photos that Kenshiro did for his website comparisons, so we could see how the Ken4 compares (and the bwaites/Ginny inspired variation on the theme) to the older beamshots/lights? Would be great for comparison to have the same setup area as done in this Kenshiro comparison:

1500yd superlights comparisonTest

If you have a 2nd part on this, where others can send in lights for inclusion next month or later; maybe CPF 'Leonard' who represents Megaray in South Africa, would be willing to send or arrange for a loaner of the newest version of the Megaray???

The Sleeper and $2,000 Maxabeam are at the opposite extremes as far as beam-patterns/output lumens. Maxabeam has one of the smallest point sources of light available on the market, with the 75w? xenon short-arc, 800-lumen (less than a mod'd M*glite with an overdriven WA1185 bulb) HID capsule inside and expensive $300 specially designed reflector which results in a trademark narrow, super long throw beam (which unlike most others, is adjustable to defocus for wider beam). While the far less expensive custom mod "Sleeper" is more of the 'wow', wall-of-light from big-fat-wide incandescant 600w bulb. Not very useful for spotting anything at a distance, unless you are standing far to the side of such a light, because flood or side-spill interferes with one's ability to make out what the hot-spot is shining on at a distance greater than a few city blocks. But to do side-to-side blank wall of light on a city street, the Sleeper rules for cheap thrills.


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## cheesehead (Dec 18, 2004)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sick2.gif
holy moly this is gonna be great!!!

maxabeam will be throw champ, sleeper output champ. But to see all the comparison, WOW!!! I don't know if I will be able to sleep the next few days, esp if you can get this done before New Years, AMAZING!!!!!


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## cheesehead (Dec 18, 2004)

I would assume, and to do justice to aircraft landing lights, that the sleeper would be 1,000 watts. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif


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## markdi (Dec 18, 2004)

wow I like the crocodile 1
seems nicer than the surefire's beast to me.

and you could own 3 of them for a bit mor money than the beast.

still I hope a hid thor get's to the shootout.

I would not ship mine during christmas - It might get lost.

I put the brightest bulb out of the 4 I had in my thor.

and I think the black thors have a better reflector than the orange ones.

I have another ballast that I am going to take apart and see if I can boost the power to the bulb.
the regulator circuit should not be too dificult to figure out.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 18, 2004)

At this time, the only thing I wish to say about the Wolf Eyes Crocodile-I, is that lumen output specifications are grossly overstated. 

The Croc's output seems similar to the SureFire Beast at 2000 lumens. It is hard to judge as the Beast puts out a very wide, smooth and even wall of light, while the Croc has the typical hotspot, with corona, artifact laden beam.

On "low power", the Croc's specs is 2000 lumen, but I find that my SF 10x and M6 combined have more lumens than the Crock at low power.


Were I to hazard a guess, I would guess the Croc output to be like 1900 lumens on high, 1000 lumens on low; note the Crock does have a much higher color temperature. Nice thing is, lower output, longer runtime


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## markdi (Dec 18, 2004)

20 primary lithium batterys per recharge of the beast seems silly to me.


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## S4MadMan (Dec 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*markdi said:*
20 primary lithium batterys per recharge of the beast seems silly to me. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100%, it's not for me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*S4MadMan said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*markdi said:*
20 primary lithium batterys per recharge of the beast seems silly to me. 

[/ QUOTE ]


Agree 100%, it's not for me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

It is crazy. But if the government wants to pay for them, I'm not gonna complain. It's a great light.


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## S4MadMan (Dec 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*BakerOnFire90 said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*S4MadMan said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*markdi said:*
20 primary lithium batterys per recharge of the beast seems silly to me. 

[/ QUOTE ]


Agree 100%, it's not for me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

It is crazy. But if the government wants to pay for them, I'm not gonna complain. It's a great light. 

[/ QUOTE ]


Well, if the Government is buying, sign me up! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 18, 2004)

HAHA. That's not what I meant unfortunately.


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## UVLaser (Dec 18, 2004)

There was a Superlights Shootout 1?
And if so does any one have a link to it?
ThAnks /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Starlight (Dec 18, 2004)

UVLaser, try the sticky at the top of this forum page.


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 18, 2004)

A direct link to Kenshiro's website:

http://webpages.charter.net/kenshiro/

seen in a CPFers' dreams


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## Kiessling (Dec 19, 2004)

Will there be a KenRad UDL-35 in the shootout?
bernhard

P.S.: thanx for doing this!


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 19, 2004)

Hmmm... I do believe they are including every 35w HID (or almost every) light and powerful incans. Bring on the Kenrad.....anyone? Only person that has one that I know of is Nikola Tesla.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 20, 2004)

When I started thinking about Super Shootout II, I was mainly interested in the "newer" lights that had not been compared in the first Shootout.

The Beast, Crocodile, Havis Shields, Kenrad PS35, and Kenrad UDL 35. I could do them * all *excpet the Mega Ray....Leonard are you reading this? The question is, what for? We already how they compared to the x990 and Kum Kang which will be used as the "base comparison units" for this.


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## jtice (Dec 20, 2004)

Ah good your going to use a X990 as a referecne light? swwweeeet, now i will have a good feel for how these lights compare.

Looking forward to it! This will be great!


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 20, 2004)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## arewethereyetdad (Dec 20, 2004)

Wow, this is one of the "Most Fun" threads I've ever read. What great suspense! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## Kiessling (Dec 20, 2004)

I'd be interested to see the KenRad UDL-35 in this test as I do not remember it being plotted against the others in the shootout #1 .... if possible, of course. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
bernhard


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 20, 2004)

I do belive that the x990 is quite a bit brighter than the Kenrad. Look at Nikola Tesla's lights. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/au.gif


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## greenLED (Dec 20, 2004)

My vote goes for the Sleeper. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/au.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif


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## Kiessling (Dec 20, 2004)

Oh ... I am sure the X990 has a more concentrated beam. I am just interested in a comparison to be able to judge all the other lights ... call it a point of reference.
In no way the small refelctor of the UDL-35 can match the X990.
bernhard


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## cue003 (Dec 20, 2004)

Looking forward to the outcome of this shootout.

Thanks.

Curtis


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## JimH (Dec 20, 2004)

Who's going to enter the pocket size torch that will blow the socks off of an X990 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 20, 2004)

What pocket torch would that be?


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## JimH (Dec 20, 2004)

I don't know but I would sure like to see one.


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## markdi (Dec 20, 2004)

does the beast have a bigger reflector than the x990 ?


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 21, 2004)

.... gimme a chance to do the review, please.

ok a quickie







Even tghough the x990 hass a bigger head, the maximum diameter of the reflector is appx the same 3 1/2 inches +/- 1/32. Note, the Havis Shields unit has a 4 3/4" reflector so, guess what ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif


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## JimH (Dec 21, 2004)

Jeff,

I think markdi was asking about the SF beast not the Havis Shields. Although IIRC the beast and the X990 do have about the same diameter reflector - no speaking for reflector shape.


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## markdi (Dec 21, 2004)

thor sure kicks butt on reflector size
7 inches wide

my 2 million cp hid vector has a 5.25 inch wide reflector


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 22, 2004)

less than 24 hours and counting...

doing a run time on the Croc-1, and everything looks good

the "sleeper" arrived (it just kicks total butt; talk about an offensive weapon.....)


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## JimH (Dec 23, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*markdi said:*
my 2 million cp hid vector has a 5.25 inch wide reflector 

[/ QUOTE ]

Never heard of an HID Vector - more details please.


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## BatteryCharger (Dec 23, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*JimH said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*markdi said:*
my 2 million cp hid vector has a 5.25 inch wide reflector 

[/ QUOTE ]

Never heard of an HID Vector - more details please. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Homemade.


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## Sway (Dec 23, 2004)

'


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 23, 2004)

LOL. Ya, I can't wait to see "The Sleeper" burn some stuff up in CA.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 24, 2004)

Started at 5pm, and now it's almost 2am. Ok, we had to have Sushi dinner, and one coffee break, but still.

Some of the lights did better than expected, others did worse. I'm sure that it will take a few days to analyze the results


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## Kiu (Dec 24, 2004)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Leonard (Dec 24, 2004)

I will be happy to arrange for the latest Megaray 175 to be put at the disposal of Ken to redo the previous test. The new 175 with lithium phosphate batteries is simply in a class of its own. Ask the Marines.


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## MR Bulk (Dec 24, 2004)

All together now, _"SLEE-*PER!*_ _SLEE-*PER!*_ _SLEE-*PER!*_ _SLEE-*PER!*"_

Guess we'll know for sure in the end, eh Jeff?


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 24, 2004)

WOW, I am so excited I have to hit myself to stop bouncing around the house /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif Waiting in suspense.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## CroMAGnet (Dec 24, 2004)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 24, 2004)

Leonard

We are ready for you !!!

Fact is, the SLEEPER just barely nosed out the KEN4 (pictures will come very soon). So, in order to save face, Kenshiro is working on a new light... he said something about Luxor, a *moving van and forklift battieries*. Don't think the sleeper will be king of the hill very long


Kenshiro and I still have access to the same units as were used in the first Super Light Shootout, plus the new units we worked with last night. Also, the KEN3 (little brother of the KEN4)made it's debut last night. Where as it needed to return to the shop for adjustments, it still managed to obliterate all seven HIDS


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## JimH (Dec 24, 2004)

It certainly would be interesting to see the new megaray added to that picture for size reference. Since Megaray is continuing to improve, let me know when it gets to 500 watts /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Since we're on the subject - how many watts does an HID have to be to equal an aircraft landing light (747, airbus, etc.)


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## thesurefire (Dec 25, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Mr Ted Bear said:*
Also, the KEN3 (little brother of the KEN4)made it's debut last night. Where as it needed to return to the shop for adjustments, it still managed to obliterate all seven HIDS


[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/aaa.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/drool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/drool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/drool.gif


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## cue003 (Dec 25, 2004)

What is that light between The Beast and The Crocodile I and directly behind the little yellow handheld? Is the Ken3 and Ken4 pictured in that shot? I am assuming they are but I am not sure which is which.

Thanks

Curtis


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 25, 2004)

I believe the one between the Croc. 1 and the Beast is the Kenrad 35-UDL. Is the Ken3 the little yellow one next to the Havis-Shields? Oh ya, where did you get the Kumkang???


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## java_man (Dec 25, 2004)

A 200 W metal halide HID would be about equal to a 600 W halogen landing light in lumen output.

Not suprisingly, the airline manufactures are switching to HID lamps for landing lights on new planes

If one wanted to build an "ultimate" hand held light...using a high wattage (400+) HTI or HMI type lamp (a color stablilzed short arc metal halide which are used in stage lights) and the right reflector, you could throw a beam that could illuminate objects several miles away with a searchlight type beam


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## LEDagent (Dec 25, 2004)

From my last research on HMI lamps and light fixtures....those things weren't cheap. The ballasts and power supplies alone were huge, heavy, and expensive.

Still...it would be one spectacular light. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks guys for doing this review!


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## JimH (Dec 25, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*java_man said:*
If one wanted to build an "ultimate" hand held light...using a high wattage (400+) HTI or HMI type lamp (a color stablilzed short arc metal halide which are used in stage lights) and the right reflector, you could throw a beam that could illuminate objects several miles away with a searchlight type beam 

[/ QUOTE ]

Group buy anyone? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif


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## java_man (Dec 25, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*LEDagent said:*
From my last research on HMI lamps and light fixtures....those things weren't cheap. The ballasts and power supplies alone were huge, heavy, and expensive.

Still...it would be one spectacular light. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

True..the bulbs run $100-$200 and the electronic ballasts are > $1000...theres a possiblity that a conventional HID magnetic ballast (cheap but heavy) would work if the wattage was close. The best bet would be to take the guts out of a damaged/surplus stage fixture and mount the bulb holder on a suitable reflector...edmund optical has some nice metal parabolics. The ballasts usually work on multi AC voltages...so a conventional inverter would work...and a battery capable of 50 amps @ 12 volts to drive the inverter.
the biggest obstacle is a suitable low cost ballast


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## Sway (Dec 25, 2004)

.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 25, 2004)




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## thesurefire (Dec 25, 2004)

WOW!!! Thanks again for doing this! do we get to know witch light is witch /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## jtice (Dec 25, 2004)

What is that last pic of? The HID warming up?

So, have we determined that the Beast throws further, AND has more overal light output?


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 26, 2004)

Hmmmm...I wonder which The Sleeper is....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 26, 2004)

jtice

botttom right is a blank, and no, the Beast is not the best thrower (but we knew that). The 85 Beasts that are being sold for $2900 are optimized for a branch of the military that did not want throw. They were mostly concerned with coverage area when used in conjunction with night vision equiptment. I have seen another vesion of the Beast (border patrol it think is who requested it )that has a very focused reflector that easily out thows the best of this group.


This group of pictures was taken at the exact same time as the above group, but with a Sony 717 set a daylight white balance; these are at 1x magnification.

The pics are arrange in a different sequence as compared to the first group because in this group, the emphasis in on the foreground. In other words, "what I could see infront of me" (flood) was the criteria for arranging this sequence.


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## Sway (Dec 26, 2004)

.


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## AtomSphere (Dec 26, 2004)

HID starts from dim to bright?


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## cheesehead (Dec 26, 2004)

WOW!

Excellent work, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

But isn't 136 yards, like less than an 1/8 of a mile? These lights need to stretch their legs and really show what they can do. OK, ok, I'm sure that's coming up soon.

Thanks again!


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## markdi (Dec 26, 2004)

did you get a hid thor to test ?


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## S4MadMan (Dec 26, 2004)

WOW!!! I'll take that bright one. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## cheesehead (Dec 26, 2004)

Has to be the "sleeper", nice aircraft landing pattern light, just beautiful.


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## StEaLtH_ (Dec 26, 2004)

Awesome, simply awesome /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## jtice (Dec 26, 2004)

Great shots ! Perfect outdoor environment.

But, ahhh, are you trying to keep what light is what,,, a secret?
Yea, I can guess what the last one is, but, shouldnt there be a list with each pic, telling what light is in what part of the pic?


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## Kenshiro (Dec 26, 2004)

For the "group photo".

Here's the suspects.....

Back row;

Sleeper& Battery pack, McCulloch X990, Kenrad UDL-35, Surefire Beast, Kenrad PSL-35, Wolfeyes Croc-1, Thor 10 million CP

Front Row;

KumKang KXM-35D1, Ken 4, Havis Shield Xenon HID& Battery pack

10 lights in all.


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## Kenshiro (Dec 27, 2004)

The photos all came out well, but after we examined them, we discovered one boo boo( the wide angle shot of the Ken 4 was shot incorrectly).

So, we went back to take another set of shots, and they came out great..... until we came to our last contestant, the sleeper!
The sleeper died on us!

I am currently charging the sleeper so that we can shoot one more set in the (hopefully) very near future.
In the mean time, these photos will have to do.

Sorry about that.

Anyway, here's the answer to the "who's who".....
I won't post any comments yet so that you guys can get a chance to inspect and discuss first.

For the wide angle shots(on page 10) from top to bottom;
1) Wolfeyes Croc-1, Thor 10 MCP
2) Havis-Shield, KenRad PSL-35
3) X990 Spot mode, Flood mode
4) Kumkang, Beast
5) Kenrad UDL-35, Sleeper


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## Raybo (Dec 27, 2004)

JEEZZ!
After that beam shot the Sleeper will never die. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 27, 2004)

That is well put as AMAZING. The Croc. 1 did not perform as well as I thought it would and the Havis-Shields didn't perform as well as I had hoped considering I just bought one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Christo_pull_hair.gif, it dosn't look much more powerful than the thor; but we'll see when it arrives. I really like the beam on the Kenrad PSL-35 which surprised me but the x990 "magically" beasted(pardon the expression) most of the other 35watt HIDs(about equal to the Beast and Kumkang). How does it do that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif? But of coarse, as everyone thought, the Sleeper mauled everything to death /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif Excellent job guys! Thanx!


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 27, 2004)

Baker

Pictures don't tell the whole story. The arrangement is different when looking at 5x.

Other very important factors include price point, runtime, weight, durability etc etc

This is the reason a full review takes lots of time to write. You have to remember, these are the exotics, and generally speaking, any one of them will just completely blow the socks off any any other light you own. Don't dispare....


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 27, 2004)

Oh don't worry, I wasn't that worried; just a little caught up in the moment. I still think it is obscenely bright, a great deal, and I am very happy to be recieving it. The brightest thing I own right now, which is a 2.25 MCP Husky, will be blown away by it and that's saying a lot. It was only $25 but it is great. Spotlight+worklight+rechargeable battery+chargers+LED battery indicators, all for such a cheap price. I have compared it to 4 of my 4D maglites and they're not even visible when that thing gets turned on. I actually prefer it over my UK Light Cannon which cost $180(even though I've had such (sarcasm ahead) great experiences with it(unexplained battery drainage(yes, the batteries that should last 4 hours only lasted 20 minutes sometimes) and permanent flickering of light colour)). I know the HS will blast my the Husky into outer-space; I was merely voicing my observation of what I see in the above pictures. Sorry if my comment gave you the wrong idea. I still think the light is very very bright, just not compared to some of the other lights that 'should' be brighter. I wasn't really thinking when I typed that post I suppose. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

C ya,
Baker


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## jtice (Dec 27, 2004)

wow, so it looks like the Beast is a good bit brighter than the X990.
Why is this? I thought the Beast had a similar HID system in it?

Better reflector? Overdriven some? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 27, 2004)

Oh ya, what battery were you using to power the Havis-Shields that night? or were you running it from a car?


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## Kenshiro (Dec 27, 2004)

Here's another telephoto set of the lights.

I've been hitting a wall with capacity with my website, so I will be re-doing most of it. So, most of the stuff will be gone for now. But hopefully not too long.

jtice, you will see that the beams perform a bit differently upon close examination. What looked impressive at no zoom might not be so at 5X zoom, etc.
Remember, the wide angle shots give you more of an IDEA of TOTAL LUMEN OUTPUT whereas the narrower the shot, you get a better IDEA of focused CANDLE POWER. Both are important to the performance of a light.

Baker, we used the battery pack supplied by Havis-Shield for the test.


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## jtice (Dec 27, 2004)

Kenshiro,

Excellent shots !!! and THANKS for labeling each one! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Eh, Im happy, my X990 still holds its own /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

All of those are damn fine lights though.

P.S. that sleeper is just rediculous................. I WANT ONE ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif


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## Sway (Dec 27, 2004)

.


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 27, 2004)

OUTSTANDING!!! I am surprised by how close the Ken4 came to the Sleeper, but it definetily edges ahead. I now see that the HS (with a slightly more yellow tint) lights up the poor blind tree just as well as the x990 even though the x990 certainly puts out more total lumens. I am still very dissapointed with the performance of the Croc. 1. I expected more from a $1,300 light. The Thor deserves A LOT of credit though. It handles itself as well as some lights that are many times more expensive than itself. Thank you so much for going through all the trouble to bring everyone such /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kewlpics.gif and information about these lights. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

C ya,
Baker


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## S4MadMan (Dec 27, 2004)

Thank you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Please give us a synoposis of how each performed relative to the others, your personal pros/cons for each and recommendations/suggestions/conclusions.

Thanks again for some cool testing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif


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## markdi (Dec 27, 2004)

a hid thor would have done a lot better


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## BVH (Dec 27, 2004)

It looks like "The Sleeper Has Awaken" to quote a phrase from Dune!


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 27, 2004)

What exactly 'is' the Ken 4? What does it consist of?


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## Crosman451 (Dec 27, 2004)

Honestly guys, I didn't think my little old "Sleeper" would have performed so well, considering, the best of the best in this Superlights Shootout II . I must admit, I had my doubts about shipping it out to Jeff. But unless I did, I really would never know how it stacks up against this formidable field of super heavy hitters. Guess I was a little intimidated ya know....

Keep in mind, this is my first modded flashlight. I just happened to use this 600W commercial aircraft landing lamp. Just seemed like the right thing to do. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

Jeff and Kenshiro, you guys did a great shoot of the different lights at your disposal. Thanks for letting me be a part of it.

Now to continue on with the 1000W version.... "Super Sleeper" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif 

This ones really going to be bright! 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleye11.gif


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 27, 2004)

I had an idea. Since most of us can't get the turbo head that Crosman451 used, maybe we should try to fit a landing light into something else. I was thinking a Sylvania 5557 Par 64 bulb (1000w) into a Thor body. One possible problem would be the Thor's plastic body that may melt( /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif. I dunno. Seemed like a good thought to me. I guess we could use the same battery setup as the sleeper. Opinions???


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 27, 2004)

Everyone

Taking the pictures is (more or less) the easy part of doing the shoootout. Writing the review (of each and every light)takes a lot more thought. It's winter break for my kids so I'm not too inclined to be writng....


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## cy (Dec 27, 2004)

Jeff, thanks for doing this. Was the Thor used, stock or boosted?

lot's-O-wow factor...


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## cheesehead (Dec 28, 2004)

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, very well done! and darn quick.

Sleeper looked great, but, um, the 1,000 watt model may need the Newbie 28-30 volt mod /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif


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## Crosman451 (Dec 28, 2004)

Mr. Ted Bear is absolutely right. The pic's were probally the easy part of this reveiw. The meat will take a little effort and time.

My use of the word "performed" in regards to my "Sleeper" is only one area of performance. The "Sleeper" as configured is like a high performance dragster, fast out of the gate, all the raw photonic output anyone could ever want... or not. Hell, it's got some recoil when you hit the switch and release all the energy. But it will never have the polish or stamina needed to even take a short walk in the woods with. 

The "Sleeper" loooooves batteries. It eats them like a big fat pig! It is maximized in these two areas of performance alone and nothing in this field can touch it. Practical? Not really. Fun factor? OOOOH... YEA!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif


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## Crosman451 (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: Superlights Shootout II *DELETED* *DELETED**

Post deleted by Kenshiro

This was a duplicate post. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Crosman451 (Dec 28, 2004)

After all, this is a HID Shootout. The Sleeper was thrown in the mix just for fun. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## Phaserburn (Dec 28, 2004)

TB, any comments on the Havis HID? I have one coming from your group buy and am hungry for any details you care to offer...


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## Kenshiro (Dec 28, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Mr Ted Bear said:*
Everyone
..... so I'm not too inclined to be writng.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Ted Bear,
I guess you're trying to make ME write the thing up, eh? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/xyxgun.gif

I'll think about it..... If I do write it up, you owe me some more raw fish and rice. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleye11.gif

Later.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 28, 2004)

Havis Shield....

Given the company that it kept that night, I think it's an excellent light. For the price $179, it's about half the cost of it's nearest competitor. It has a very rugged rubberized-plastic case.... industrial/commericial grade. I do admit to having dropped the unit from a height of 6 feet onto cement (from above my ahead), and it bounced much like a flat basketball.

Another big plus is that the HS is completely potted on the inside and very good seal arond the lens. It is not a dive light, but I placed the HS in a sink full of water for an hour, and it was bone dry on the inside.

The fact the HS uses an external battery is a good (bad) thing depending on your point of view. Need more run time? Have a bigger waist pack, or plug it into your car CLA for unlimited runtime. The HS is more in the corded spotlight category, but is easily adapted to a portable mode.

Last, while the HS doesn't have the lumen output of the KK or X990, it does have a healthy center beam/spot equal to the best...


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## PhillyRube (Dec 28, 2004)

Ted, thanks for the great info on this test. Got my Thor from Santa, and had a blast playing with it during our "White Christmas One Day Late" Sunday. My neighbor was coming down our private road during the storm and he said he thought he turned onto some railroad tracks by mistake and a coal train was coming at him. Can't wait for the Thor upgrade to be finished.....heheheheh.

Next up is the Havis Shields light group buy.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif


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## S4MadMan (Dec 28, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Mr Ted Bear said:*
Havis Shield....

Last, while the HS doesn't have the lumen output of the KK or X990, it does have a healthy center beam/spot equal to the best...


[/ QUOTE ]


-Where can I purchase a HS HID? Link please, thanks.

-Looking at the specs for the HS HID, it yields 3,200 lumens which is the same as the X990. But you say it doesn't have the lumen output; why do you think that is? Reflector efficiency/function or specs are off? Thanks again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## markdi (Dec 28, 2004)

the thor was probably stock.

maybe the havis shield has a high color temp bulb 
with less lumen output


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## Phaserburn (Dec 28, 2004)

Maybe the HS concentrates it's lumens into a more focused beam with less spill?


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 28, 2004)

S4MadMan, Markdi

For beginners, I doubt that any of the HID units actually put out 3,200 lumens. That might be the bulb specs but there is the loss of the reflector, lens etc etc. I know that Sure Fire has measured both the Beast and the X990 (they probably have meassure all of the units) and the best numbers I have heard is "around 2000 lumens coming out the front end".

I don't have an good explanation of the differences... different manufacture of the same d2s bulb, who knows what for electronics, and then there is the differences in the reflectors (both surfaces and physical size). I would have thought that the HS, with the largest reflctor would have the brightest center hot spot. But, since the center spot is only on par with the KK and x990, then perhaps the correct conclusion would be that the reflector is doing the job but has "less" to start with. The fact that the is so much less light in the foreground is the basis for this conclusion


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## S4MadMan (Dec 28, 2004)

Thanks for the explanation, Sir. I can tell you from playing with HIDs in automobiles there's a big difference in output based on color temperature alone.

These are manufacturer claimed numbers assuming the same car, same reflector, all D2S:

Manufacturer/Claimed Color Temp/Claimed Lumens Output. My Estimates are in (parentheses):
Philips, 4,100K (4,100K), 3,200 lumens (3,200 lumens)
Osram Xenarc, 4,300K (4,100K), 3,200 lumens (3,000 lumens)
Osram Xenarc, 5,400K (4,800K), 2,600 lumens (2,600 lumens)
Philips Ultinon*, 6,000K (10,000K), 2,200 lumens (2,000 lumens)
ProXenon, 8,000K (8,000K), estimated 3,000 lumens (2,400 lumens)
ProXenon, 10,000K (10,000K), esimated 2,500 lumens (2,200 lumens)
ProXenon, 12,000K (12,000K), estimated 2,200 lumens (1,800 lumens)
Premier HID, 6,000K (6,000K), estimated 2,800 lumens (2,500 lumens)
Premier HID, 8,000K (8,000K), estimated 2,400 lumens (2,200 lumens)

A bunch of other miscellaneous D2S HIDs from 6,000 to 12,000K all in the 1,800 - 2,400 lumen range.

Philips claims its Ultinon bulb is 6,000K but it's more like 10,000K because purple is dominate in the color of the light output. 6,000K in the real world is pretty blue.


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 28, 2004)

WOW!!!! I'm glad I got in on the Havis-Shield GB in the beginning!!! In that last group of pictures you can definetily see that it equals the "lighting-up-the-tree"
ability of the x990 and the KK. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif Thanx again you guys for doing this shootout and thank you Jeff for doing the GB on the HS!!

Oh, I don't think the HS has a very high color temperature. It seems to have a distinct yellow-er shade than the other HIDs. I am leaning towards the idea that the reflector isn't so great.

C ya,
Baker


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## markdi (Dec 28, 2004)

phillips dl35 35 watt d2s hid is rated at 3600 lumens 
plus or minus 300 lumens

phillips is the best

I have a scan of the spec sheet


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 28, 2004)

Sorry, not to steal the thread at all, but did you recieve my payment for the HS yet Jeff?


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## S4MadMan (Dec 28, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*markdi said:*
phillips dl35 35 watt d2s hid is rated at 3600 lumens 
plus or minus 300 lumens

phillips is the best

I have a scan of the spec sheet 

[/ QUOTE ]


For as long as I've been in the automotive HID lighting industry, I've never seen or heard of any manufacturer state anything higher than 3,200 lumens for a 35 watt D2S set-up (not including the delta of course). Auerswald Systems with their 50 watt ballast claims 5,000-5,200 lumens with a Philips D2S. Below is a spec sheet I'm referring to; I'm in the process of creating a 35/55 watt D2S set-up for automotive applications with a company that does work for Panasonic/Matsushita. My goal is a more reliable, more robust set-up than the Auerswald ballast. 

One problem I'm running into is the bulbs. All automotive bulbs are designed to run at 35 watts. Overdriving them to 50 watts in the Auerswald set-up adds yellow to the color temperature. I offsetted this with higher color temp bulbs such as the Osram Xenarc 5,400, Philip Ultinon (6,000) and 8,000 to 12,000K bulbs. But these bulbs start out with less lumens and are much more sensitive to color degradation. So, I'm looking into creating a 55 watt D2S bulb as well.

Philips D2S Spec Sheet: 3,200 Lumens:


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## markdi (Dec 28, 2004)

s4madman

the phillips 85122 bulb is not a phillips dl35

either look up the spec on the dl35 bulb or have me send a scan of it to instead of calling me a liar.


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## markdi (Dec 28, 2004)

ever heard of the phillips dl50 bulb a real 5300 lumen 50 watt micropower hid bulb

wow a little time spent on the internet and you know more than the big boys


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## markdi (Dec 28, 2004)

I am buying a dl50 bulb and a very advanced ballast


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## S4MadMan (Dec 28, 2004)

Sir, you need to chill out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

First, I *never* called you a liar. I'm just telling you what I know based on my experience with automotive HIDs. I have the Auerswald Systems 50 watt ballast in my car and have sold a lot of HID.

I never claimed to be an expert or anything. I'm simply sharing information. If you have more information share it, no need to be a condescending jerk.

Philips used to have the specs of their D2S bulbs on their website, and it was 3,200 lumens. I had some documentation on it as well. The D2S Philips kits we sold were 3,200 lumens. 

Can it be we are talking about a different bulb or Philips changed/updated the specs?

Regardless...let's stop wasting bandwidth.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 28, 2004)

markdi and s4madman

name calling doesn't cut it; not in this thread, not in this forum or on this board.


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## Sway (Dec 28, 2004)

,


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## markdi (Dec 28, 2004)

I never called any one any names

but maybe I did over react


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## java_man (Dec 28, 2004)

They do claim 3,600 lumens for thier DL35 bulb







Perhaps the warmer color temp bulbs are more efficient


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## markdi (Dec 28, 2004)

I obtained 2 dl35 bulbs before I got my bulbs and ballasts
from ebay.

a spec sheet came in the boxes with the bulbs.



I was not sure that the dl35 bulbs would work with the automotive ballasts.

they work great


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## S4MadMan (Dec 29, 2004)

Oh, OK, that explains a few things. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

No worries. 

Enjoy! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## S4MadMan (Dec 29, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*java_man said:*
They do claim 3,600 lumens for thier DL35 bulb






Perhaps the warmer color temp bulbs are more efficient 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the info Java Man. I'm not familiar with DL type bulbs. I'm only referring to automotive applications such as D2S, D2R, D1S and D1R. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## cy (Dec 29, 2004)

So can anyone confirm the Thor used in this shootout stock or a boosted Thor?

it's flat amazing a $28 flashlight was in the same ballpark.


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## thesurefire (Dec 29, 2004)

cy, I think it was the stock thor, as I only know of one "thors hammer" and thats newbies personal light. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


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## xpitxbullx (Dec 29, 2004)

I would exactly say it was in the same ballpark as the Ken 4 or the Sleeper. But the Thor is pretty sweet for the money. I'm just waiting for Newbie's circuit board to be created.


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## Dr_Joe (Dec 29, 2004)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goodjob.gif


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## MaxaBaker (Dec 29, 2004)

Did you recieve my payment for the HS yet Jeff? I sent it 5 days ago.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 29, 2004)

Baker

Just sent you an email - yes


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## gregw (Dec 29, 2005)

Bumping this to the top so people can see the results of SS II..  

I noticed the Kenshiros website doesn't contain any of SS II's results... 

Maybe this can be stickied?


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## That_Guy (Dec 29, 2005)

This thread is the draft SS II review by Kenshiro. As far as I know the final version was never posted.

This thread contains lots of juicy pictures from SS II by S4MadMan.

This is another SS II thread.


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## gregw (Dec 30, 2005)

Thanks for the links. I missed those...


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## Arkayne (Jan 4, 2006)

AtomSphere said:


> HID starts from dim to bright?



Yep, the output gets progressively higher as it warms up. My HID bike light takes about a minute.

-----

Thanks for the pics! I suddenly feel so small now.


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## moonkat (Mar 9, 2006)

...


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## margret green (Aug 26, 2011)

I feel you are professional. I want to follow your step into the way of having a good understanding of flashlight


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