# Designing an LED flashlight for Kickstarter



## jashhash (Jun 19, 2015)

*Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Updated 11/23/15
The project will be relaunched today you can find it on Kickstarter here: http://kck.st/1lETDBt 


Introducing the Firefly:







Stainless Pins Option




Ice Blue Trits




Featuring a milled titanium clip.







Specs:
20mm Dia 97mm long.
The switching order will be: Firefly > low > med > turbo
You will have a choice between 2 different LEDs:
*4000K Nichia 219B with 90CRI for those who want the best light quality
*6500K CREE XM-L2 U3 bin for those who want the most light quantity

Performance specs with the Nichia 219B:
450lm turbo, 105lm med, 15lm low, 1lm firefly (When using 14500 Lithium Ion cells)
276m turbo, 76lm med, 10lm low, 1lm firefly (When using NiMh or Alkaline cells)
Battery life on high = 25 min
Battery life on med = 3 hrs
Battery life on low = 15 hrs 
Battery life on firefly mode = 240 hrs 

Performance specs with the CREE XM-L2
650lm turbo, 130lm med, 25lm low, 1lm firefly (When using 14500 Lithium Ion cells)
450m turbo, 85lm med, 17lm low, 1lm firefly (When using NiMh or Alkaline cells)
Battery life on high = 25 min
Battery life on med = 3 hrs
Battery life on low = 15 hrs 
Battery life on firefly mode = 240 hrs 


Custom made shallow smooth aluminum reflector designed to increase side spill of the beam
Will have an internal copper heat sink with the LED slug directly soldered to it (see photo)
Runs off a single AA size battery (Alkaline, NiMh, or Li-Ion)
Has a built in protection circuit to run unprotected Li-Ion cells
Reverse clicky switch (you can press the switch lightly to change between 4 modes)
The premium model will be available with 8pc 2.5mm X 10mm tritium vials


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## kj2 (Jun 19, 2015)

Well.. Have to say.. it does look good! :twothumbs


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## KuanR (Jun 19, 2015)

That looks good. The ui could use some improvements though. The high and medium are way too close, and the low is not really a low for a AA powered light.

If you get better level separation and a more advanced ui I would definitely back this


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## rwhitebbq (Jun 19, 2015)

To add, with a name like firefly, you may want to include a FF mode. For the standard model, what do you think differentiates it from others in this price range?


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## Eagles1181 (Jun 19, 2015)

I would move your low up to around 100 lumen and then and an extra low in the 10 lumen range. Otherwise looks good.

Eagle


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jun 19, 2015)

The light certainly looks nice. I love that it's a warm white high CRI LED. :thumbsup:

I'll echo other's comments about the low not being low-enough, and support for a moonlight (or firefly!) mode would be good. Something like 0.5, 10, 100, 750 lumens would be nice mode spacing. I presume that you're not going to get 750 lumens on a AA NiMH or alkaline cell, though.


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## RWT1405 (Jun 19, 2015)

To make me interested in an AA light, I did totally different lm outputs (as many have already stated). For me (in an AA light), I would look for something much lower, perhaps, 5 lm, 25 lm, and 125 lm. For me, an AA light is a "back up" light, or for the very few times when I can't carry anything else, so I value run time, over "stupid bright" for a few seconds. I get a kick out of people that now "need" 1000 lm for "general use". I can remember when a good 25 lm was about all we had, and it worked fine for most of what was needed. But I guess it depends on what you want it for, a "toy", or a EDC work light. 

BTW, I could handle WalkIntoTheLight's suggestion, without the 750 lm mode, but I still think 5, 25, 125 would be perfect (perhaps adding 1 lm, if you wanted 4 settings).


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## chuckhov (Jun 19, 2015)

1-40-150-400 lumens. - 750 is not of much practical use on such a low capacity battery.

Thanks,
-Chuck


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## hiuintahs (Jun 19, 2015)

RWT1405 said:


> To make me interested in an AA light, I did totally different lm outputs (as many have already stated). For me (in an AA light), I would look for something much lower, perhaps, 5 lm, 25 lm, and 125 lm. For me, an AA light is a "back up" light, or for the very few times when I can't carry anything else, so I value run time, over "stupid bright" for a few seconds......



Agree, the levels need to be lowered for longer run time.......specifically since this is an AA light.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jun 19, 2015)

hiuintahs said:


> Agree, the levels need to be lowered for longer run time.......specifically since this is an AA light.



It needs to have lower levels, yes, but I don't mind a 750 lumen turbo level, even if it's limited to a minute or less. Sometimes you just want a wall of light for a short burst.

I think if he wants this light to stand out from the crowd of other AA lights that already exist, it should have something extra to offer. 750 lumens would do it. The Zebralight SC5 puts out 500 lumens on a AA NiMH cell. I don't know if he's planning to beat that on a AA, probably not, but it's still impressive on a 14500.


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## holygeez03 (Jun 19, 2015)

Is it feasible to get something like Chuck said when using AA... with a ~750lm "turbo mode" when using a 14500... that would satisfy the practical users with AA and the pocket-rocket users that can pop in a 14500... without requiring a fancy programmable UI.


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## gunga (Jun 19, 2015)

chuckhov said:


> 1-40-150-400 lumens. - 750 is not of much practical use on such a low capacity battery.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Chuck



Yes, I'd be in with this set of levels, or close to it. Maybe with a real sub lumen firefly mode.
Looks nice.


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## moshow9 (Jun 19, 2015)

gunga said:


> Yes, I'd be in with this set of levels, or close to it. Maybe with a real sub lumen firefly mode.
> Looks nice.


I will echo agreement with these levels and as Mike states a firefly mode would work too. Nice choice on the emitter!


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## seasam (Jun 19, 2015)

looks like a cool concept but I imagine it would get pretty hot pretty fast at 750lm :duh2:


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## nfetterly (Jun 19, 2015)

Echo, echo, echo.....

Low, medium, high (turbo? - okay I have other (modded) AA lights that do ridiculous lumens, I like the 1, 40, 150, 400 but could live without the 1) with a lower low. No memory. For me - flashlight should start low & go up, much easier to use at a lower level if it's going up. Starting at high is good for tactical, but it's a AA powered light....

Firefly has been used as a flashlight name - but I don't think that's a huge deal.

I would be interested in the top end one (ti, coated, trits...)


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## holygeez03 (Jun 19, 2015)

What about some sort of clip? I would prefer one that is "deep carry" and is easily removable without making the light look like it's missing... kinda like the one on my old Quark.

Momentary clicky would also be nice... How will the modes cycle? 

I might be interested in a S/S or Titanium version if the final specs are acceptable.


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## Woods Walker (Jun 19, 2015)

IMHO the low isn't low enough.


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## Amelia (Jun 19, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> IMHO the low isn't low enough.



Yep. Change the low to 1 or less lumens, and I'm definitely in. I think I'll pass with the higher low as you have it.


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## jashhash (Jun 19, 2015)

Thanks everyone for their input. I will add a pocket clip to the design as a stretch goal, but for now I'm going to have the settings adjusted on the circuit board per your recommendation:

750Lm on high = 20 min (this is the 2nd mode)
150Lm on med = 3 hrs (this is the starting mode)
25Lm on low = 15 hrs (this is the 3rd mode)
1lm on firefly mode = 2 weeks (this is the 4th mode)


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## Amelia (Jun 19, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Thanks everyone for their input. I will add a pocket clip to the design as a stretch goal, but for now I'm going to have the settings adjusted on the circuit board per your recommendation:
> 
> 750Lm on high = 20 min (this is the 2nd mode)
> 150Lm on med = 3 hrs (this is the starting mode)
> ...



Nice modes and spacing!
I like that a lot... definitely in for a SS model.
I'd pay extra for ML -> L -> M -> H sequence though.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jun 19, 2015)

Yes, lowest to highest mode sequencing would be much better, if mode memory isn't used.


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## RWT1405 (Jun 19, 2015)

I wouldn't buy a single AA light that does 750 lms, because that is nothing but a "toy", but if that is what you want, enjoy! And making me go thru the "stupid high" mode (that serves no purpose, other then to show off), to get to the levels I'd use 99% of the time (the 25 lm and the 1 lm levels), is nothing but a waste of the battery life. No thanks!


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## DellSuperman (Jun 19, 2015)

I'm definitely interested in the SS version. 
And preferably ML-L-M-H mode sequence.


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## moshow9 (Jun 19, 2015)

I agree that the mode order does not make sense to start at 150 lumens and then go to 750 lumens, followed by 25 lumens, and ending with 1 lumen.


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## Javora (Jun 19, 2015)

I would love a .5 lumen mode myself but it looks like a really good light.


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## chuckhov (Jun 19, 2015)

The mode sequence is all wrong!

Should be 1-25-150-750, but like another said, 750 is really a Toy.

No thanks,
-Chuck


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## jashhash (Jun 19, 2015)

Alright, I agree that the 750Lm mode is more for show than anything else, however I can't deny there are probably a lot of people (mostly people who are not on CPF) who would think that's pretty cool. Honestly I remember when I was new to flashlights, I was so impressed by those really bright hot-mod flashlights. I'm also getting a lot of requests for a .5lm mode too and it totally makes sense that you don't want to kill your night vision if you wake up to go to the bathroom during the night which means the lowest .5Lm should be the first mode. So here once again is a revised sequence from the start to finish: .5lm > 25Lm > 150Lm > 750Lm. What to you guys thing about this?


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## gunga (Jun 20, 2015)

Much better! Need a clip though.


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## Amelia (Jun 20, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Alright, I agree that the 750Lm mode is more for show than anything else, however I can't deny there are probably a lot of people (mostly people who are not on CPF) who would think that's pretty cool. Honestly I remember when I was new to flashlights, I was so impressed by those really bright hot-mod flashlights. I'm also getting a lot of requests for a .5lm mode too and it totally makes sense that you don't want to kill your night vision if you wake up to go to the bathroom during the night which means the lowest .5Lm should be the first mode. So here once again is a revised sequence from the start to finish: .5lm > 25Lm > 150Lm > 750Lm. What to you guys thing about this?



I think it's completely awesome! I'm now in for at least 2, 1 each SS and Ti.


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## DellSuperman (Jun 20, 2015)

Yup yup, 4 modes with that spacing sounds great..
Let us know when you have posted it up on the website..


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## KuanR (Jun 20, 2015)

The last revision with moonlight to high is perfect. I'll will be in for a titanium with trits, and the pocket clip would be a VERY nice addition


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## 4rmless (Jun 20, 2015)

Some thoughts:

- This is about the same size as the Foursevens QPA, which is not small for an AA light, especially as yours doesn't seem to be built for any throw (so head could shrink) and doesn't aim to be modular. It strikes me that this is a desing consideration just to get the trits in around the heat sink. Wouldn't it be simpler to make the heat sink external and include the fins and trit slots?

- Again, comparing to the QPA, if we ignore your high mode, which I assume is only possible on 14500, you're suggesting double the efficiency for similar modes: QPA 130lm = 1.2 hours, Firefly 150lm = 3 hours. Sure this is possible, but it seems very good. Also, offering runtimes and lumens for different battery types would be helpful.

- If you have the ability to, offering user mode customisation would be nice.

- Will all models have holes for trits, whether ordered with them or not?

Thanks, like it and the price a lot aside from the above.


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## jashhash (Jun 20, 2015)

Yes, the truth is this is a bit long for an AA light. The reason why is the heat sink portion of the design which is threaded right onto the copper slug provides a spacer to keep the heat off the driver circuit and battery. Of course the light will get incredibly hot even with these additions, but hopefully the parts inside won't self destruct. 

For the models which don't have the tritium tubes I'm thinking about using 3mm borosilicate glass tube inserts filled with a glow powder as a lower priced alternative since glow tubes will cost 1/8th as much as the tritium tubes. 

About the run time and lumen output, for now these are just estimates based on the battery capacity and current draw. I used this calculator here: http://www.powerstream.com/battery-run-time-calculator.htm to perform the run time calculation. The actual run time will need to be verified when the prototype is finished. 

The reason for the shallow reflector is because this light isn't designed to provide a lot of throw (which is another reason why I chose a lower lumen density XM-L2 emitter). I chose the XM-L2 emitter because it's a 10W emitter capable of handling the turbo mode, while also having the benefit of being super efficient when run at less than 1/10th of it's capacity for the other modes. I actually designed the reflector myself (not a buyout). I wanted to create a shallow reflector to increase side spill and by pushing the emitter closer to the lens there is less overall light loss. For now these lumen values are for conversation and will certainly be revised based on real world testing. Unfortunately I don't own an integrating sphere so I will need to send out a few prototypes for review. 

I will have 10 prototypes made out of stainless steel, If anyone want's to pre-order a sample I will have 5 available for members of CPF who are willing to post a review. I will give 1 away free to anyone who has access to an integrating sphere to obtain lumen values, the remaining 4 will be sold here for $70 each (plus $10 shipping). So if anyone want's to get their hands on one before anyone else speak now.


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## Amelia (Jun 20, 2015)

Please sign me up for one of the first 10. I will happily review it, but I don't have an integrating sphere.
Thanks!


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## nfetterly (Jun 20, 2015)

Would like to review a prototype - I also don't have any means of measuring lumens, but do have alot of lights to compare it to.

I like the new levels and going from low to high. Please no memory. A clip would be nice - but you've got a lanyard attachment point so that works.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jun 20, 2015)

xxxxx


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## KuanR (Jun 20, 2015)

I'll take one of the ss prototypes, I could even come meet you in Shenzhen to check things out and give some input.


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## holygeez03 (Jun 20, 2015)

What's the difference between the 5 made available for review and the 4 available for sale?


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## Amelia (Jun 20, 2015)

The more I think about this light, the more I like it! In a way, it's kind of a "holy grail" AA light - combining a set of features you can't find anywhere else:

SS or Ti, with Trit inserts, looks great!
Bright, Warm emitter with 90+ CRI
14500 Support, with under discharge protection
No blinky modes (Awesome!  )
4-Mode with Moonlight
ML -> L -> M -> H Activation Pattern (Yeah!  )
Excellent mode spacing
Good runtime for all modes
No memory (Sweeet!!!!)
Copper heatsink
Waterproof

Just plain excellent. I see this easily replacing my D25A Ti Nichia as my EDC keychain light, if it really delivers on all it promises. I'm super excited at this point, if this comes through I'll probably end up with 3 or 4 various flavors of it! 

My only real question at this point is whether a screw-on pocket clip will become available for it, and what kind of tailcap switch it will use. Metal or GITD reverse clicky and this light will be PERFECT!


P.S. I'd buy a bunch of a 18650 version, if you ever scale this light up.


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## wjv (Jun 20, 2015)

So your modes go: Med -> High -> low -> firefly ???

No thanks. . .

How about 2 lines:
line 1: Low -> Med -> High
line 2: Firefly -> Low -> Med -> High


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## Amelia (Jun 20, 2015)

wjv said:


> So your modes go: Med -> High -> low -> firefly ???
> 
> No thanks. . .
> 
> ...



He's changed the mode sequence. It's now Firefly-L-M-H. No memory. Beautiful!


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## gunga (Jun 20, 2015)

Id like to sign up for a review sample. Is it available with trits? What is the switch like? I like your logic in design.


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## DellSuperman (Jun 20, 2015)

I can't help with the review so I will wait patiently when the Kickstarter event comes up.. 
Good luck with the potential reviewers, looking forward to the reviews.


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## kkobayak (Jun 20, 2015)

I can do a review based on real life work conditions, in industrial ceilings, equipment control cabinets, etc... Please PM for my address... Thank you...


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## jashhash (Jun 21, 2015)

Alright so far I have 4 reviewers signed up, I will add on the blue tritium tubes for an extra $90 if you want. I have one more free flashlight available to anyone with access to an integrating sphere. I have access to an integrating sphere myself, but it's a conflict of interest that I post my own test results. 

Amellia - 1 of 4 sample, $80 (includes $10 shipping)
Nfetterly - 2 of 4 sample, $80 (includes $10 shipping)
KuanR - 3 of 4 sample $70, we can meet up in Shenzhen or Hong Kong since your local.
Guanga - 4 of 4 sample, $80 (includes $10 shipping)


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## GordoJones88 (Jun 21, 2015)

Needs a good clip otherwise it's completely useless.


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## jashhash (Jun 21, 2015)

holygeez03 asked:


> What's the difference between the 5 made available for review and the 4 available for sale?


Function wise and brightness will be exactly the same between models. The only difference will be the flashlight material, Finish, and the addition of tritium tubes. I want people to be able to enjoy this flashlight at any price point.

Amelia commented:


> "My only real question at this point is whether a screw-on pocket clip will become available for it, and what kind of tailcap switch it will use. Metal or GITD reverse clicky and this light will be PERFECT!"


There will be a pocket clip offered as a kickstarter reward, If the campaign passes $70,000 in pledges during the campaign, everyone will receive a free pocket clip (detachable). This is ,bluntly stated, a shameless self promotion in which I'm creating an incentive for all my backers to promote to their friends. The switch will be a reverse clicky, meaning you can quickly cycle through modes by tapping lightly on the switch. 

wjv asked:


> How about 2 lines:
> line 1: Low -> Med -> High
> line 2: Firefly -> Low -> Med -> High


The flashlight will only be programed one way: firefly > Low > med > high. Making too many versions will likely get mixed up in shipping.


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## gunga (Jun 21, 2015)

I'll do the tritium for $90 (ice blue?). If one chooses no trits, does the light have blank slots for tubes? I think the clip needs to be part of the review.


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## gunga (Jun 21, 2015)

Btw. The stainless proto is the same as the stainless kickstarter model right? Is the switch boot metal or rubber?


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## jashhash (Jun 21, 2015)

Gunga wrote:


> Btw. The stainless proto is the same as the stainless kickstarter model right? Is the switch boot metal or rubber?



Yes the stainless proto will be identical to the Kickstarter model. The switch boot is a glow in the dark rubber material. In the future I hope to invest in a silicone mold in order to make a waterproof metal switch unless you know a simple way to incorporate a waterproof metal switch. Unfortunately making the clip at this point means that I will have to buy an expensive stamp die which more than doubles the cost of the prototype, for now I'm not willing to throw that much into the project yet. If I can reach the $70K benchmark this won't be a problem though. If you have any suggestion on how to design a good clip I would be glad to use your recommendation.


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## gunga (Jun 21, 2015)

Ah. I see. So you have designed the slots in the body for a clamp on clip? I guess there is no pre-existing clip that can be used? 

For a water proof metal switch, one usually uses a thin rubber boot and covers it with a metal cap. This has been done with some success (thrunite t10) and some failure (sunwayman V11R). The concept is the same for both, but slightly better finishing and design for the Thrunite makes it smoother. The Sunwayman tends to bind, though I've gotten mine to be acceptable with a little light sanding.


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## gunga (Jun 21, 2015)

So the protos have trit slots? Is it ice blue for the trits?


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## jashhash (Jun 21, 2015)

I would like to make a clamp on clip, but I will talk to my manufacturer tomorrow and see if they have a suitable pre-existing clip that might work. Also yes I will be using a metal cover over a silicone boot if I make the metal switch version. The trits will be ice blue.


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## gunga (Jun 21, 2015)

Please ensure the circuit has a short reset time before reverting to low (max 2 seconds). Also, does it use pwm for dimming?

Is the switch boot the common 14mm slightly rounded top? I would like to swap out my boot to blue.


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## A.Alhelal (Jun 21, 2015)

Nice design!! Looking forward to it on Kickstarter


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## jashhash (Jun 21, 2015)

Here I drew up a 1.8mm diameter 301 S/S wire form clip that will snap into the flashlight design. Wire forms are really strong and also don't require a stamp die to be made. What do you think about this clip design? Yes the switch boot is a standard 14mm with a slightly rounded top. I will check with my manufacturer to see if he can use blue instead of green with this design. I will check and see if the dimmer is PWM, or what sort of dimming. Thanks for all the feedback Gunga.


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## gunga (Jun 21, 2015)

Looks very nice. Great idea.


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## wle (Jun 21, 2015)

i think it is too big for pocketability
also flood pattern is a big problem
you want a hot spot plus some spill

needs to accept lithium rechargeable 14500 [have not read that far yet]
when using 14500, it should have a brighter high mode..


wle


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## wle (Jun 21, 2015)

also
modes should be even multiples
.2 1 5 25 125 500
possibly start on 1 or 5

should remember prev mode

positive clicky instead of reverse

blinky modes optional

how can it do 750 lumens without xm-l2 led?

side clicky instead of bottom

tritium inserts - meh, too $$$$

no pwm dimming

wle


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## RWT1405 (Jun 21, 2015)

An AA pocket light should be more floody, then throw IMHO. A brighter mode, then what you have already talked about, is a joke, for a AA pocket light. If are are looking to make a "toy", take the advise of making it brighter and more throw. Also no memory. And no blinking modes. If you are looking to make a useful tool/light, keep the flood, and lower the high level, don't increase it. But that's just me. I use my lights as tools, not "toys".


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## Str8stroke (Jun 21, 2015)

I like the idea here. I would back that. I agree with others on improvements. I like Titanium personally. Also it would be nice to have a light with a SCREW on clip. Possibly reversible would be ultimate. Like some of the knife guys do. So you can carry bezel up or down. 
I have no need for 750 lumen on it. But if its a option and you still have a true FireFly mode, I am happy. I just like lots of spacing between modes. 

Either way, it sure has some good looks to it.


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## wle (Jun 21, 2015)

also cannot tell if it tail-stands or not
it needs to

magnet in base would be nice too

wle


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## gunga (Jun 21, 2015)

Wle, you might want to let the designer design his own light. You are proposing and entirely different light. 

The light is a tail clicky, so a magnet is not feasible. It looks like it should tail stand (a good thing). 

The level selection looks great to me. I like sub lumen moonlight modes be this is a good balance with 4 modes and a burst of 750 lumens.


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## gunga (Jun 21, 2015)

Also, this is using XML2. Try reading the specs. 


I do agree on no memory, a screw on clip if possible.


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## Phlogiston (Jun 21, 2015)

Nice design. I don't generally go for 1xAA lights, but I'd be interested in a 2xAA version, especially if it did 750lm on NiMH cells.


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## gunga (Jun 21, 2015)

This light is simlar in size to a quark AA. I would Edc it with a clip. Flood is definitely more useful. The warm tint is pleasant but may not appeal to everyone. Still, much better than cool white (for me).


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## Amelia (Jun 21, 2015)

gunga said:


> This light is simlar in size to a quark AA. I would Edc it with a clip. Flood is definitely more useful. The warm tint is pleasant but may not appeal to everyone. Still, much better than cool white (for me).



Same here. I'd personally prefer a Neutral emitter, but I'll take high-CRI warm over Cool White any day!


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## DellSuperman (Jun 21, 2015)

wle said:


> i think it is too big for pocketability
> also flood pattern is a big problem
> you want a hot spot plus some spill
> 
> ...



Yes it accepts 14500. 
And for most including me, my EDC is more floody then throw, for most of the events that needs lighting up. 



wle said:


> also
> modes should be even multiples
> .2 1 5 25 125 500
> possibly start on 1 or 5
> ...


He is using XM-L2 
He has also indicated that mode seq will be from lowest to highest.


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## Harold_B (Jun 22, 2015)

I have access to several integrating spheres including 6", 16" and 24" diameters. If I can get a model of the reflector I can also provide simulation results using the Cree supplied Ray sets. Let me know if you are interested. This is limited to this flashlight project for now.


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## Amelia (Jun 22, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Alright so far I have 4 reviewers signed up, I will add on the blue tritium tubes for an extra $90 if you want. I have one more free flashlight available to anyone with access to an integrating sphere. I have access to an integrating sphere myself, but it's a conflict of interest that I post my own test results.
> 
> Amellia - 1 of 4 sample, $80 (includes $10 shipping)
> Nfetterly - 2 of 4 sample, $80 (includes $10 shipping)
> ...



Thank you!
When will the prototypes be finished and ready to ship? I'll send payment at that time.


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## wle (Jun 23, 2015)

gunga said:


> Wle, you might want to let the designer design his own light. You are proposing and entirely different light.
> 
> ==one that i would actually buy, me being ''the market''..
> 
> ...


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## gunga (Jun 23, 2015)

I don't think you are the market. He is designing a tail clicky, floody, warm light. You want a side switch light with a magnet in the tail. Perhaps you are better served with an olight or zebralight. 

If you read the title of the thread, it says designing a light. Not inventing one.


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## jashhash (Jun 23, 2015)

Hi Harold_B
I have you signed up for a free sample then on account of your access to an integrating sphere. I appreciate the offer for running projections, however I am much more interested in the real world test results. Not that simulated results are invalid, but they simply don't carry the same weight.

Yesterday I spoke with the manufacturer and he agreed to not use PWM dimming (good catch), also the switch boot will be changed to blue to match the color of the tritium vials. The clip will be something like the wire form shown in the renderings, but may change depending how it feels. Thank you everyone for your input, at this point I've finalized everything with them and they are producing the first prototypes which will be ready in 2 weeks.

As I write this I'm in Turkey on my honeymoon with my beautiful wife Irena. I will be here for 2 weeks while the prototypes are being made. I say this because I won't be too active here on CPF during this time. Thanks again everyone for offering advice on how to design this light.


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## gunga (Jun 23, 2015)

Wow!! Enjoy your honeymoon and take lots of pictures!


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## campingnut (Jun 24, 2015)

With the addition of the clip, I am now interested. All the metal options, any chance of a solid copper option?


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## KuanR (Jun 24, 2015)

Enjoy your honeymoon! I'll come over to meet you in ShenZhen or Hong Kong in a few weeks to check this little beast out!


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## thomas_sti_red (Jun 24, 2015)

Congratulations


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## RWT1405 (Jun 24, 2015)

Congrats! And good luck with you light!


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## wjv (Jun 24, 2015)

wle said:


> i think it is too big for pocketability
> also* flood pattern is a big problem
> you want a hot spot plus some spill*
> 
> wle



That is purely a matter of individual preference / opinion. . 

I prefer to have my EDC lights be all flood and no hot spot.


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## debragail (Jun 24, 2015)

I'm definitely in for ti plus trits. I'd need to see the coating as I'm not familiar with it.

Everything else seems just right to me as I like warm flood. I really don't care about the clip and I'll probably attach it to a lanyard.

Sorry the eraser project didn't make and I hope this launches soon.


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## KuanR (Jun 25, 2015)

I hope the review lights get trits as an option. I have a tritium addiction and would definitely opt for the vials in the review


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## nfetterly (Jun 25, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Alright so far I have 4 reviewers signed up, I will add on the blue tritium tubes for an extra $90 if you want. I have one more free flashlight available to anyone with access to an integrating sphere. I have access to an integrating sphere myself, but it's a conflict of interest that I post my own test results.
> 
> Amellia - 1 of 4 sample, $80 (includes $10 shipping)
> Nfetterly - 2 of 4 sample, $80 (includes $10 shipping)
> ...



I will take trits in mine please. KuanR - review lights have the trits as option - I also have a bad thing for trits.....

I *really* like the clip design. I like clips that are screwed on, I dislike clips that just of clamp on around the diameter - too easy to come off. 

I didn't realize you were the one doing the eraser project on kickstarter - I hope that goes ahead in the future.

Enjoy your honeymoon.....


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## gunga (Jun 25, 2015)

Yes. I'm into trits too. Not many wire clips in lights. Common on nice knives. I like it.


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## jashhash (Jul 8, 2015)

Hi everyone. I'm back to CPF after 2 weeks of honeymooning with my Wife. So far the gold plated FR4 LED mount circuit board has been made as you can see here. I re-flow soldered one XM-L2 just to test the circuit and make sure the LED floats on nicely. There is a center slot cut out where the LED slug will be soldered directly to the copper heat sink. 

Unfortunately the machining will take another week. The driver circuit will also need to be modified from my specs a bit. Unfortunately I will need to use a fast duty cycle PWM (greater than 1000/sec on the lowest setting) for some parts of the dimming since my driver maker is having trouble making all the settings constant current.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jul 8, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Unfortunately I will need to use a fast duty cycle PWM (greater than 1000 per second) for some parts of the dimming since my driver maker is having trouble making all the settings PWM.



 I think you mean he's having trouble making all settings constant-current (not PWM).

1000 per second sounds fast, but it all depends on what the usage sequence is. For example, if you need to dim something 500x, then using 2 pulses every 1000 cycles, means it's flashing twice a second. Maybe you mean that the flashes will be over 1000/second. Anyway, it's worth clarifying, because PWM can become more noticeable the dimmer the light, because fewer pulses are used to achieve a lower brightness.


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## KuanR (Jul 8, 2015)

Nice update, the progress is actually pretty fast compared to many other makers prototyping phase. It's not easy and you're doing great!


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## Camo5 (Jul 8, 2015)

Would you consider a stainless finish with just 3 tritium for people on a budget? Personally I don't like titanium because of how hard it is to machine, and its thermal conductivity is the worst of the metals. It is unfortunate the manufacturer can't get a full current limited board 
That high cri 3k tho


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## Tixx (Jul 8, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Alright, I agree that the 750Lm mode is more for show than anything else, however I can't deny there are probably a lot of people (mostly people who are not on CPF) who would think that's pretty cool. Honestly I remember when I was new to flashlights, I was so impressed by those really bright hot-mod flashlights. I'm also getting a lot of requests for a .5lm mode too and it totally makes sense that you don't want to kill your night vision if you wake up to go to the bathroom during the night which means the lowest .5Lm should be the first mode. So here once again is a revised sequence from the start to finish: .5lm > 25Lm > 150Lm > 750Lm. What to you guys thing about this?



I like that much better!


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## Tixx (Jul 8, 2015)

Have you thought about Indiegogo? At least you can use Paypal in addition.


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## rjking (Jul 10, 2015)

Tixx said:


> Have you thought about Indiegogo? At least you can use Paypal in addition.



+1


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## Amelia (Jul 10, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hi everyone. I'm back to CPF after 2 weeks of honeymooning with my Wife. So far the gold plated FR4 LED mount circuit board has been made as you can see here. I re-flow soldered one XM-L2 just to test the circuit and make sure the LED floats on nicely. There is a center slot cut out where the LED slug will be soldered directly to the copper heat sink.
> 
> Unfortunately the machining will take another week. *The driver circuit will also need to be modified from my specs a bit. Unfortunately I will need to use a fast duty cycle PWM (greater than 1000/sec on the lowest setting) for some parts of the dimming since my driver maker is having trouble making all the settings constant current.*



Sorry... that kills it for me. I will not accept PWM on low, when so many other manufacturers get that part right without resorting to PWM. This is not the prototype I signed up to buy, and I don't wish to continue with my involvement in this project.

If anyone else here wants to take my place and buy my review slot/prototype for the $80 he's charging, please let him know. My slot is now vacant, as I will not be buying something that I did not agree to.

jashhash - just a thought for you... making this thing a moving target during development might not be the best approach. Get input and finalize your design, produce a few working prototypes, THEN sign people up for a paid test run. I'm saying this respectfully and with the best of wishes toward your endeavor.


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## jason98 (Jul 10, 2015)

i like 150lm in the first place,because it is the most commonly used.


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## jashhash (Jul 10, 2015)

Hi Amelia,

I'm pushing hard to have the lowest setting to be constant current, the middle 2 settings will most likely be PWM we will see what happens. There may be a few other changes along the way as this project progresses. Your completely right in not wanting a sample if the end product spec doesn't meet your expectations. As with all the others who signed up for a first article, I will be posting pictures of the finished first articles and finalize the specs as well. If anyone want's to back out on a first article they may certainly do so and I won't be collecting paypal payments for first articles until they are ready to be shipped. 

As for Indiegogo, that's a great idea, I will be launching this flashlight project on both Indiegogo as well as kickstarter.

A little update today. I have hit a snag on the tritium vials. The supplier I initially contacted said they sold out of their batch but still has stock in green. He wants me to commit to a 2000pc order in order to make ice blue. Right now I'm looking for other suppliers who have the 10x 3mm tube in stock. What do you all think about green tritium instead of ice blue? Do you have a color preference on tritium tubes?


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## nfetterly (Jul 10, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hi Amelia,
> 
> I'm pushing hard to have the lowest setting to be constant current, the middle 2 settings will most likely be PWM we will see what happens. There may be a few other changes along the way as this project progresses. Your completely right in not wanting a sample if the end product spec doesn't meet your expectations. As with all the others who signed up for a first article, I will be posting pictures of the finished first articles and finalize the specs as well. If anyone want's to back out on a first article they may certainly do so and I won't be collecting paypal payments for first articles until they are ready to be shipped.
> 
> ...



Green is fine with me, brighter than ice blue. Those are my two general preferences.


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## KuanR (Jul 10, 2015)

Super high frequency pwm doesn't bother me, I'm still commited.

My friend Daniel sells these 3x11mm vials, does your design have enough room for the extra 1mm?

http://www.mixglo.com/store/p92/T311_Vials.html

If you're interested tell him Ryan on CPF sent you and he might be able to help you with a bulk order


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## gunga (Jul 10, 2015)

Yes mixglo.com is awesome. I prefer ice blue. He has 3x11mm. Please make sure the pwm is above 2k. The higher the better.


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## jashhash (Jul 11, 2015)

Actually I just found Mercava's post and placed an order with him here for some 11mm X 3mm tritium tubes in various colors.

I'm ordering 8 tubes in these colors:
green
ice blue
yellow
orange
red


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## jashhash (Jul 12, 2015)

It's been mentioned in the past that the clip should be reversible, and for a good reason too; having a reversible clip allows the flashlight to be be clipped on to an baseball cap to be used as a headlight. I'm hoping my manufacturer will be able to make this new wireform clip. note the ends of the wireform will be welded together to create a continuous link. the clip is fastened to the flashlight by expanding it with your fingers, the clip then checks into any groove on the flashlights surface. This is the theory anyways, let's see if it works in real life.


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## reppans (Jul 12, 2015)

Nice clip design - hope it works out for you. If it does, patent it before Surefire sees this thread .


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## nfetterly (Jul 12, 2015)

reppans said:


> Nice clip design - hope it works out for you. If it does, patent it before Surefire sees this thread .



REALLY nice clip design!

Hope they can be included on the prototypes - if not no big deal.


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## Tixx (Jul 12, 2015)

Looks good!


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## KuanR (Jul 12, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Actually I just found Mercava's post and placed an order with him here for some 11mm X 3mm tritium tubes in various colors.
> 
> I'm ordering 8 tubes in these colors:
> green
> ...


I'll go with ice blue on my light 

If the 11mm trits work out, see if you can get a discount fit bulk ordering the trits from either mixglo or merkava


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## gunga (Jul 12, 2015)

The old design looked better, Though the new one is more functional. Not sure a stainless light is good for a hat brim. Heavy.


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## nfetterly (Jul 12, 2015)

gunga said:


> Not sure a stainless light is good for a hat brim. Heavy.



I'm interested in the prototype stainless primarily to see if I want to get a fully loaded / coated Ti version. I would probably end up gifting the stainless one at a later time.


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## gunga (Jul 12, 2015)

I'd keep mine. And get a ti. But I'm nutty.


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## SA Condor (Jul 12, 2015)

When is this going live on kickstarter? If it is live, are you able to post a link?


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## more_vampires (Jul 12, 2015)

Sweet pic on the OP. Bad PWM is the achilles heel of even a big maker. It happens to really annoy me as I'm sensitive to it.

Take a breath, get it right! Looking good, op!


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## jason98 (Jul 12, 2015)

square lattice pattern looks good.


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## Tixx (Jul 12, 2015)

Thought about the XP-L HD?


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## campingnut (Jul 14, 2015)

jashhash said:


> It's been mentioned in the past that the clip should be reversible, and for a good reason too; having a reversible clip allows the flashlight to be be clipped on to an baseball cap to be used as a headlight. I'm hoping my manufacturer will be able to make this new wireform clip. note the ends of the wireform will be welded together to create a continuous link. the clip is fastened to the flashlight by expanding it with your fingers, the clip then checks into any groove on the flashlights surface. This is the theory anyways, let's see if it works in real life.



This design does not look as solid as the original. Any pull on the clip and it looks like it will pop off, this is the same reason I dislike clips that simply wrap around the body of the flashlight. For me the clip design is critical.


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## gunga (Jul 14, 2015)

Good point. I had not thought of that.


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## Me+Light=Addiction (Jul 14, 2015)

I think he just needs to make the grooves that hold the clip deep enough and it will hold it well.


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## nfetterly (Jul 14, 2015)

Me+Light=Addiction said:


> I think he just needs to make the grooves that hold the clip deep enough and it will hold it well.



I agree - it will certainly be better than the two lights (SWM) on the desk in my hotel room right now - where the clip only goes around 2/3 of the light.


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## jashhash (Jul 15, 2015)

Yes, I've thought about using XP-L HD but this light isn't designed to be a big thrower so the actually want the magnification of the dome in this case. I thought about the XP-L also, but didn't want the lens with flat sides. So, I ended up deciding to go with the XM-L2. 

As for the clip, I don't see how to clip could wiggle off since it's checked into the groove on the flashlight. I will have a few samples made to test out the clip. If it works well I will also send the clips along with the review samples. 

I visited the factory today to see how things are coming along and it's been mentioned that the light may look better with ring grooves rather than the square lattice pattern. I personally prefer the original design, what do you all think?




do you like it better this way?




or do you like it better this way?


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## gunga (Jul 15, 2015)

Square please.


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## jashhash (Jul 15, 2015)

The samples aren't quite done yet but here's some photo's I took of the machining progress so far. 




Here is the complete light so far. notice there are some details that still haven't been cut




Here is the copper heat sink. Look at how well the threads are cut! Copper is notoriously hard to machine.




Here is the copper heat sink with the XM-L2 LED soldered on




The flashlight bezel




Body tube




Here are the heatsink fins. Note the 8 holes for the tritium vials haven't been cut yet.




Here is the heat sink threaded into the fins




Here are all the parts lined up


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## DellSuperman (Jul 15, 2015)

Sweet looking little thing. 
Good luck with the prototypes & hope things head to Kickstarter soon


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## gunga (Jul 15, 2015)

Outstanding. Looking forward to evaluating it.


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## thomas_sti_red (Jul 15, 2015)

Really good looking!!


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## thedoc007 (Jul 15, 2015)

I too like the square lattice design better. Looking good!


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## jashhash (Jul 15, 2015)

Also I've been talking to the manufacturing more about the PWM issue today. I keep stressing my (our) preference for constant current instead of PWM and explained that we may lose a lot of you CPF customers if it can't be made constant current. He understands the situation said that he will try his best to make all the settings constant current. I will keep you all posted for more updates.


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## SA Condor (Jul 15, 2015)

I like the square look much better too!


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jul 15, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Also I've been talking to the manufacturing more about the PWM issue today. I keep stressing my (our) preference for constant current instead of PWM and explained that we may lose a lot of you CPF customers if it can't be made constant current. He understands the situation said that he will try his best to make all the settings constant current. I will keep you all posted for more updates.



As Yoda would say, "Do, or do not. There is no try."

PWM is a pretty important feature to know about in advance of production. You should really nail that down, one way or the other, before you start producing the lights. Obviously no PWM is better, but if you can't do that for some reason, then make sure the frequency is too high to notice. PWM can sometimes be done really badly, especially on low modes.


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## RWT1405 (Jul 15, 2015)

I also like the square lattice design better.


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## nfetterly (Jul 16, 2015)

Square (original design) looks better. Looking forward to prototype!


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## DellSuperman (Jul 16, 2015)

thedoc007 said:


> I too like the square lattice design better. Looking good!


+1


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## Camo5 (Jul 16, 2015)

Square design looks FAR better imo


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## Amelia (Jul 16, 2015)

Camo5 said:


> Square design looks FAR better imo



Definitely the square design. The round stripe look is kind of "Meh...".


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## SuPpAvIlLiN (Jul 17, 2015)

Sounds good. I agree with the lumen change. For a AA light 150 is plenty for high. No need for 750lm out of a AA. Sounds and looks great otherwise.


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## jashhash (Jul 19, 2015)

Alright here is more information on the bin of the XM-L2 please forgive the bad photo. This bin will be used on both the first article samples offered here as well as for the kickstarter campaign. As it turns out you really have to sacrifice efficiency for the sake of good CRI. Based on this bin it looks as though the light levels will be more like 1/2lm firefly > 20lm low > 80lm med > 400lm turbo. I'm thinking of perhaps offering a high efficiency cool white option as well with a U3 bin XM-L2 so the light levels will be 1lm firefly > 35lm low > 150lm med > 750lm turbo.


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## gunga (Jul 19, 2015)

I actually like the new levels. But a cool white option is good for some.


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## Amelia (Jul 19, 2015)

jashhash,
I continue to watch this thread with great interest, and I still might be onboard as a first article tester and reviewer if the light you are creating ends up meeting certain (personal and subjective) minimums. The square vs. round cosmetic issue is kind of important to me - I recognize that it takes more machining, but the square pattern looks SO much better, and should provide a better level of grip friction in the hand than the round.
PMW on the moonlight/low, as I've previously stated, will KILL this light for me. However, if fast enough, PMW on the higher modes might be OK.
As for brightness? I'm perfectly fine with 400 Lumen turbo - in fact I rarely ever use more than about 100-200 Lumens for my EDC lights under almost any conditions I typically encounter. Runtime is far more important to me than brightness... if you wanted to go lower and cap it around 250-300 that would be perfectly OK in my book! However, I recognize that most flashlight buyers are chasing lumens, so I won't be the least bit surprised if you end up maxing out the lumens for whatever emitter you end up using. This is mostly a non-issue to me, as you have lower modes in this light that I can use to maximize runtime.
Anyway, I'm going to continue to watch... and maybe buy that prototype yet!


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## jashhash (Jul 19, 2015)

Yes I have already confirmed that this will definitely have the square lattice machined pattern on the original design. As far as PWM goes I'm hoping none of the settings are PWM. I will update you all on the PWM issue when the samples are completed.


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## marco1988 (Jul 19, 2015)

Hey jashhash, if you need some advices to run your Kickstarter campaign ping me, I'm glad to help with my acquired experience. (I'm currently running a KS campaign about a strange flashlight and it's doing quite good).
Best of luck


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## reppans (Jul 19, 2015)

Course there's no pleasing everyone, but the 35-40x mode spacing between FF and "low" is too much of a gap for me. Just another $0.02.


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## gunga (Jul 19, 2015)

Yes. I agree.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jul 19, 2015)

reppans said:


> Course there's no pleasing everyone, but the 35-40x mode spacing between FF and "low" is too much of a gap for me. Just another $0.02.



It's tough to get the right mode spacing, with a 4-mode light that goes from "moonlight" to "really bright". It really needs a 5th mode to get the right mode spacing, but then the UI starts to get cumbersome. I like the way Armytek manages to do 6 modes, without making it cumbersome to step through them all; they do groupings.


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## Amelia (Jul 19, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> It's tough to get the right mode spacing, with a 4-mode light that goes from "moonlight" to "really bright". It really needs a 5th mode to get the right mode spacing, but then the UI starts to get cumbersome. I like the way Armytek manages to do 6 modes, without making it cumbersome to step through them all; they do groupings.



So true. I personally don't mind 4 modes... though I tend to prefer lower output settings and fewer modes in general.

I think the mode spacing is pretty decent as currently defined... 0.5 - 20 - 80 - 400 seems pretty well spaced.

Ideal world? 0.5 - 10 - 60 - 400 would be about what I would personally want. And I could probably live without the 2nd "middle" mode... I think 0.5 - 60 - 400 would be completely perfect for all of my uses! 

Of course, the IDEAL situation here would be a universally programmable driver with a selectable number of modes and selectable brightness for each. I'm thinking 1 to 5 modes, with a choice of maybe 0.5, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, or 400 Lumens as possible settings for each mode. Always comes on at mode 1, or maybe a "memory" function than you can turn on or off if you want to get fancy with it. Factory default 4 well-spaced modes though, for people who just don't want to mess with programming. Shouldn't be too hard for a good driver designer to create...


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## RWT1405 (Jul 19, 2015)

I still stand by my thoughts that the high, is too high. But I do like the 0.5 - 20 - 80 lmns. For me, I would make it 0.5 - 5 - 20 - 80lmns and leave it at that.

To me, this makes the most sense for an AA light, and would give great run times!


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## Amelia (Jul 19, 2015)

RWT1405 said:


> I still stand by my thoughts that the high, is too high. But I do like the 0.5 - 20 - 80 lmns. For me, I would make it 0.5 - 5 - 20 - 80lmns and leave it at that.
> 
> To me, this makes the most sense for an AA light, and would give great run times!



Yes, I tend to agree. However, in this "more is better" society, pretty much EVERYTHING must be sacrificed on the "maximum lumens" altar if you want sales. Sad... but tint, runtime, CRI, and reliability will always take a back seat to mega-Lumens. 

Again, I think the only way to make everyone happy would be a decent set of factory settings, combined with programmability for those who want to tinker with it and get the modes "just right".


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## Tixx (Jul 19, 2015)

RWT1405 said:


> I still stand by my thoughts that the high, is too high. But I do like the 0.5 - 20 - 80 lmns. For me, I would make it 0.5 - 5 - 20 - 80lmns and leave it at that.
> 
> To me, this makes the most sense for an AA light, and would give great run times!


Call the high "turbo " and keep it. 

.5
5
20 
80
150
400 TURBO! 

Works for me


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## Amelia (Jul 19, 2015)

Tixx said:


> Call the high "turbo " and keep it.
> 
> .5
> 5
> ...



Yeah... but 6 modes? You wouldn't need turbo then, the sun will come up before you get finished clicking through all the modes to get to turbo!


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## DellSuperman (Jul 20, 2015)

Amelia said:


> Yeah... but 6 modes? You wouldn't need turbo then, the sun will come up before you get finished clicking through all the modes to get to turbo!


[emoji13] [emoji13] [emoji13]


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## rickyro (Jul 20, 2015)

Hi Jashhash, welcome to China and welcome to be a Son-in-law of China

Since you are located in Shenzhen now, are your lights available on Taobao when it is done? That will be a much easier way for me to pay and get it delivered.


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## rickyro (Jul 20, 2015)

For me, the circle design is OK from the real goods pictures you posted. The CG pictures, the lattice may look better.

For the grip part, the circle design is totally OK since your light is a tail clip. The lattice is better grip only for the twist operation.

With circle design, the grooves can be deeper like that of McGizmo packs. With lattice, I think it will be a little shallower like knurling so the grip may be worse.

And I think circle design is more simplified and more elegant.

So I think it may be better that if you can keep two options for the test batch and then choose from them to see which one is really with better grip.


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## jashhash (Jul 20, 2015)

Hi marco1988,
I saw your campaign and it most certainly is doing well, congrats on the design award as well. When the time comes near to launch I will be sure to seek your council.

The reason for the .5 lm moonlight being so low is for maximum run time and also so as not to kill night adapted vision. At .5lm you won't be able to see a lot of colors, but it should provide just enough light to navigate a pitch dark room. The 20lm is a much greater step up and will provide sufficient light in most applications. 20lm is about the brightness of a standard minimag light. 80LM is a significant step up and provides enough light for most outdoor night time excursions. Finally 400lm is excellent for night time photography, tactical use, or great for finding things on the ground at night. I know that in California it's sometimes difficult finding all your belongings on a pitch dark beach after sunset. I understand that it's difficult pleasing everyone like you said Reppans. Unfortunately the light levels were already chosen a few weeks ago and I can't change them just yet. Once the review samples are out we shall see what the light levels feel like in practice.

As for the design, the square lattice pattern is pretty much set now since that was what the majority here preferred. I think it may be a difference in styling preference between China and the US market. Perhaps I will offer a slightly modified version for sale on Taobao in the future. I feel as if we met before Rickyro, was it you who I met last week at my flashlight manufacturers factory?


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## rickyro (Jul 20, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hi marco1988,
> I saw your campaign and it most certainly is doing well, congrats on the design award as well. When the time comes near to launch I will be sure to seek your council.
> 
> The reason for the .5 lm moonlight being so low is for maximum run time and also so as not to kill night adapted vision. At .5lm you won't be able to see a lot of colors, but it should provide just enough light to navigate a pitch dark room. The 20lm is a much greater step up and will provide sufficient light in most applications. 20lm is about the brightness of a standard minimag light. 80LM is a significant step up and provides enough light for most outdoor night time excursions. Finally 400lm is excellent for night time photography, tactical use, or great for finding things on the ground at night. I know that in California it's sometimes difficult finding all your belongings on a pitch dark beach after sunset. I understand that it's difficult pleasing everyone like you said Reppans. Unfortunately the light levels were already chosen a few weeks ago and I can't change them just yet. Once the review samples are out we shall see what the light levels feel like in practice.
> ...



That can't be me I am staying at one Eastern Europe country for quite a few years. Last time I went back to China was in March and only to a few other cities, not Shenzhen. And I am only a flashaholic and not in this business.

However the reason why you have that feeling is quite understandable to me:
1. normally Chinese loves to say to foreigner to become a son-in-law or daughter-in-law of China
2. the square lattice design is used by many Chinese makers, such as Olight. the circular one is used by McGizmo, Zebralight, Prometheus, but quite scarce for Chinese makers. Some Chinese may also become bored with the square design like me
3. Chinese loves Taobao and buy everything from it, that's why Ma Yun is so rich now

Anyway, wish you a good luck and success in your endeavor. I will contact you for Taobao link when everything is done and if the modification is OK for me and the waiting is not too long (I can ask colleague to help carry it here to me from China). Or I will book the normal model and pay for the international shipping.

BTW, 
1. Are you bothering to do a Nichia 219 version? Isn't the 3000k demand too limited to some real flashaholics so that your target market is too small? 
2. And about clip, I like your first design, which looks much solid and integrate and I think it may be possibly even further strengthened by some screws similar like the design of Syderco knives. I like wire clip on my Spyderco knives (such as Dragofly II and Chaparral), they are very strong and light and friendly with the cloth. It seems to me the second design is not so strong and I have no need to reverse install it to put on a hat.
3. Please do put some glow material designs on the cheaper models. I may choose the raw Ti version but I do like those glowing cylinders. This unique design should be the major reason I would like to buy this product.


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## more_vampires (Jul 20, 2015)

All of the modes! 

There is a high end driver on CPF that involves programmability. It has all of the modes. The user gets to decide, sounds legit to me.


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## gunga (Jul 20, 2015)

So, just chiming in again.

If the second level was dropped to say 10-15, that may be better mode spacing. That said, this is still quite workable.

I also agree that the first clip design seems more elegant, simpler to make, and stronger. I'm not really into clipping onto ball caps, but that is just me. I'd suggest doing samples for both and deciding.

Really looking forward to checking out this light. Did you have a choice on the UI? Memory? No memory? Hybrid memory (always resets to low on memory reset)? I use hybrid but would be okay with no memory... Not a fan of memory, especially "on" time memory (light needs to be on for a certain period of time to lock memory). Hate that. Off time, or no memory is preferred.


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## jashhash (Jul 21, 2015)

Interesting you should mention the Nichia 219. In fact the 4500K Nichea 219 would work very well with just some slight modification to the heat sink. Also I would have to reduce the turbo mode from 400lm down to 300lm. I like the neutral color temperature combined with the high CRI. Would everyone here prefer the 219 over the XM-L2?


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## mmander (Jul 21, 2015)

Haven't chimed in yet on this project. There is lots I really like about it (beautiful design - prefer the original square lattice, optional trits, nice mode spacing, starts in moonlight, wire pocket clip) and I'd be all over it for sure with a Nichia 219B or, perhaps better yet, a 4500K XM-L2 for greater output on turbo. Seems like it would be an ideal luxury EDC. :thumbsup: Personally, I think a 3000K LED would be too warm for my own personal taste but I realize there are many that would like it, so maybe you could make it available with a couple of different LEDs? Pretty much impossible to please everyone with one design, right?

Speaking of the pocket clip (and someone else already mentioned this), without a much deeper groove, I strongly suspect that the second wire clip design is just going to pop off the first time you try to clip the light on something thick, like canvas pants, jeans, a belt etc. I really liked how firmly the 1st wire clip design was anchored, and that seemed a much more robust design, albeit without the ability to reverse the clip. The one way you could make the second design work perhaps, is to somehow slip on a metal band in the space between the furthest protruding part of the clip and the flashlight body, right where the groove is. A tight band would keep the clip from spreading and coming up out of the groove when it is levered up. Not sure if I explained that well enough that you can picture it? The band could perhaps be slipped down the clip, allowing it to be removed and reversed? Well, the right angle would probably keep that from working, so maybe just a deeper groove? Still... I would personally be greatly in favour of the first design, where there would be virtually zero worries of the clip ever coming off. For an expensive EDC light like that, I would really want a nice, tight, super robust clip that could take some serious abuse without deforming or losing its spring tension! Again, all IMHO...

Regardless of the final production design, best of luck with this project!


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## Amelia (Jul 21, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Interesting you should mention the Nichia 219. In fact the 4500K Nichea 219 would work very well with just some slight modification to the heat sink. Also I would have to reduce the turbo mode from 400lm down to 300lm. I like the neutral color temperature combined with the high CRI. Would everyone here prefer the 219 over the XM-L2?



Hold out for the Nichia 219C - to be released very soon. Then, you will get both the increased lumens you are after for the "lumen chasers" market, combined with high CRI.


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## gunga (Jul 21, 2015)

I would LOVE Nichia 219.


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## Tixx (Jul 21, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Interesting you should mention the Nichia 219. In fact the 4500K Nichea 219 would work very well with just some slight modification to the heat sink. Also I would have to reduce the turbo mode from 400lm down to 300lm. I like the neutral color temperature combined with the high CRI. Would everyone here prefer the 219 over the XM-L2?


No, XM-L2 works for me!


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## SA Condor (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm good either way. The lumens race doesn't mean much to me. As long as the light is well built and functions without glitches, I'll be in.


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## Harold_B (Jul 21, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Interesting you should mention the Nichia 219. In fact the 4500K Nichea 219 would work very well with just some slight modification to the heat sink. Also I would have to reduce the turbo mode from 400lm down to 300lm. I like the neutral color temperature combined with the high CRI. Would everyone here prefer the 219 over the XM-L2?



You might take into consideration that the XM-L2 has a FWHM of ~120 degrees and a die height around .85mm compared to the Nichia 219 c with a FWHM of ~130 degrees and a die height of around .65mm. Might not seem like much but it can be the difference between a nice focused beam and a donut. My offer to run simulations if you provide the reflector file and assembly dimensions stands. For reference I'm running SolidWorks 2015 with OptisWorks 2015 Lighting Design, Optical Design, Colorimetry, and Phosphor Bulk Scattering add-ins plus the multi-core license on a Go-Boxx so I have the right tools. Drop me a PM if you'd like to have me take a look.


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## rickyro (Jul 22, 2015)

Harold_B said:


> You might take into consideration that the XM-L2 has a FWHM of ~120 degrees and a die height around .85mm compared to the Nichia 219 c with a FWHM of ~130 degrees and a die height of around .65mm. Might not seem like much but it can be the difference between a nice focused beam and a donut. My offer to run simulations if you provide the reflector file and assembly dimensions stands. For reference I'm running SolidWorks 2015 with OptisWorks 2015 Lighting Design, Optical Design, Colorimetry, and Phosphor Bulk Scattering add-ins plus the multi-core license on a Go-Boxx so I have the right tools. Drop me a PM if you'd like to have me take a look.



Yeah. I think that's why the HDS 219B last year batch has donut.


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## jashhash (Jul 22, 2015)

Hi mmander,
Yes I see what you’re saying about adding a metal band at the top to span between the clip. I thought about that too and will see if it’s needed. I too prefer the look of the first clip and how it's anchored, it does have the appearance of being more robust as well. However the 2nd clip design is already under production since I opted for the ability to reverse the clip. In any case it's not a huge deal if the clip design fails I can always have it modified. 

Yes I saw the performance charts on the 219C and it is an excellent LED and will no doubt be the ideal LED for flashlights. For the time being I will be holding out on making a Nichia version until the 90+ CRI version is finally available. I promise that I will make a batch of 4500K 219C heatsink assemblies for the folks here on CPF when it comes out. 

Harold b:
Wow that’s some crazy optical CAD setup. For reflector design I just run ray traces every 5 degrees in autocad and calculate the reflection angle. Then I just draw a spline to smooth out the curve. Alright I will send you a solidworks CAD file of the optical assembly. What email address should I send it to?


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## Amelia (Jul 22, 2015)

jashhash,
I sent you a PM... did you receive it?


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## rickyro (Jul 22, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hi mmander,
> Yes I see what you’re saying about adding a metal band at the top to span between the clip. I thought about that too and will see if it’s needed. I too prefer the look of the first clip and how it's anchored, it does have the appearance of being more robust as well. However the 2nd clip design is already under production since I opted for the ability to reverse the clip. In any case it's not a huge deal if the clip design fails I can always have it modified.
> 
> Yes I saw the performance charts on the 219C and it is an excellent LED and will no doubt be the ideal LED for flashlights. For the time being I will be holding out on making a Nichia version until the 90+ CRI version is finally available. I promise that I will make a batch of 4500K 219C heatsink assemblies for the folks here on CPF when it comes out.
> ...




That 4500K 219C batch looks very interesting. Please count me in.


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## gunga (Jul 22, 2015)

Sorry. Did you ever mention how the UI works?


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## jashhash (Jul 22, 2015)

So the UI works like this. Click* and the flashlight turns on in firefly mode (1/2lm). Then when the flashlight is on tap the tail switch (1/2 press) to cycle between modes. The modes go from 1/2LM > 20LM > 80LM > 400LM. There is no memory so the light will always turn on in firefly mode to start.


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## jashhash (Jul 22, 2015)

I was working on the display box when I thought, hey why not make the display box a Li-Ion charger to add some functionality to it. The display box is soldered together from 1.5mm FR-4 circuit board. FR-4 circuit board material is fairly cheap and will only add another $5 to the cost of the flashlight. All the charging circuits will be printed directly onto the inside surface of the charger underneath where the plug goes. What do you all think about this idea? Do you think this would be a cool idea or should I stick to a standard display box?




The display box/charger will be made out of 1.5mm thk FR-4 circuit board. the same color and material as this photo. Orange text will be printed on in gold plate. White text will be printed in ink.




here is what it looks like plugged into the wall with a battery inside




Here is the flashlight clipped inside




Here is a flat layout of the 5 sides


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## Harold_B (Jul 22, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Harold b:
> Wow that’s some crazy optical CAD setup. For reflector design I just run ray traces every 5 degrees in autocad and calculate the reflection angle. Then I just draw a spline to smooth out the curve. Alright I will send you a solidworks CAD file of the optical assembly. What email address should I send it to?



My email address has been sent via a PM. I'm looking forward to running these!


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## Tixx (Jul 22, 2015)

Cool box /charger design!


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## Espionage Studio (Jul 22, 2015)

Very cool idea I like it!


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## SA Condor (Jul 22, 2015)

I didn't realize that you were planning on making a recharge function. I think it's a cool idea. What AA rechargeable batteries are you going to recommend?

I do like the minimalist packaging idea by incorporating the packaging/charger together. Reduces waste and increases functionality.


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## mckeand13 (Jul 22, 2015)

I'll be in for one.

Any possibility of selectable mode groups? I dislike all of the modes, especially when you get up to 5 or so. Too much time spent goofing around either cycling through them or deciding "is low or medium just right for this? I'm a L/H or L/M/H kind of guy.

If you had selectable mode groups, everyone could be happy.


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## gclyn (Jul 22, 2015)

Looks good, but for a firefly mode, definitely should be 0.5Lm or less. Low = 10-20Lm, Med = 70-80Lm, High = 300-400 Lm...at least that's my preference


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## gunga (Jul 22, 2015)

Nice package. Only if it's a good safe charger.


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## Mr_Moe (Jul 22, 2015)

jashhash said:


> I was working on the display box when I thought, hey why not make the display box a Li-Ion charger to add some functionality to it. The display box is soldered together from 1.5mm FR-4 circuit board. FR-4 circuit board material is fairly cheap and will only add another $5 to the cost of the flashlight. All the charging circuits will be printed directly onto the inside surface of the charger underneath where the plug goes. What do you all think about this idea? Do you think this would be a cool idea or should I stick to a standard display box?



Please consider how the effect on shipping costs is.


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## jashhash (Jul 23, 2015)

The packaging won't affect shipping cost in the slightest since it takes the place of the original packaging. Also for now I'm not doing mode groups for this project but perhaps in future projects. I can't make too many changes to the driver settings right now, at least not until we all have a chance to review the first batch of samples. 

I went to the post office today and picked up the 11mm x 3mm tritium vials courtesy of Desertmoon. 8 of each color: green, ice blue, yellow, orange, and red. There is something absolutely stunning about tritium isn't there.


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## rickyro (Jul 23, 2015)

jashhash said:


> The packaging won't affect shipping cost in the slightest since it takes the place of the original packaging. Also for now I'm not doing mode groups for this project but perhaps in future projects. I can't make too many changes to the driver settings right now, at least not until we all have a chance to review the first batch of samples.
> 
> I went to the post office today and picked up the 11mm x 3mm tritium vials arrived today courtesy of Desertmoon. 8 of each color: green, ice blue, yellow, orange, and red. There is something absolutely stunning about tritium isn't there.




Wow, really nice! Maybe finally I will be seduced to the more expensive tritium installed models even that hurts the pocket a lot.

About that charging package, I am still confused. How is the electric contact done? Only 14500 Li-Ion can be charged? Not a Ni-MH?


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## mckeand13 (Jul 23, 2015)

Great idea with the charger/package, but I'd prefer to use the charger I already have which has a known good method and track record. I'd prefer to see the cost kept low.


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## SA Condor (Jul 23, 2015)

Ok, so it won't effect shipping costs, but how much more will the charger/packaging add to the overall cost of the product? 

Are we still looking at these price points on Kickstarter?

"The price points on kickstarter will be something like:
$55 for black hard anodized aluminum
$70 for mill finished stainless steel
$130 for mill finished raw titanium
$145 for titanium with a titanium nitride coating
$240 for titanium + 8 tritium vials (those tritium vials are incredibly expensive)
$255 for titanium w/ nitride coating + 8 tritium vials"

What about offering an aluminum and/or Stainless Steel version with the Tritium for those that might not care about the titanium but want the tritium? I'm not sure what category I fall into yet, but I do like the tritium



jashhash said:


> The packaging won't affect shipping cost in the slightest since it takes the place of the original packaging.


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## nfetterly (Jul 23, 2015)

Charger in the box is interesting, myself I already have a couple of chargers so it's not necessary for me, and I use 18350s, 18650s (sometimes 26650 or 32650 but not traveling) as well.

Maybe on kickstarter it's a $5 upcharge to charger in a box?

I've never taken a Macro photo of trits - very nice!! Love tritium vials.


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## SA Condor (Jul 23, 2015)

I I personally hope that prices don't go up. More for less is always nice.



nfetterly said:


> Charger in the box is interesting, myself I already have a couple of chargers so it's not necessary for me, and I use 18350s, 18650s (sometimes 26650 or 32650 but not traveling) as well.
> 
> Maybe on kickstarter it's a $5 upcharge to charger in a box?
> 
> I've never taken a Macro photo of trits - very nice!! Love tritium vials.


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## gunga (Jul 23, 2015)

I just realized I'm carrying a Btu brass 18650 light that is 21 x 97mm. So I have a good idea about the size and weight. Note, the clip found on the dqg tiny 18650 clicky fits and is outstanding. Might be a decent backup option.


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## jashhash (Jul 25, 2015)

Alright folks Harold B has kindly run a few lighting simulations using the current optical setup using his CAD software. Before you see the results you should know these results are theoretical with approximately 80% accuracy. Then you should also know that beam artifacts are exaggerated in these results since the CAD sensor is much better at seeing different light levels than the human eye which can only detect light differences greater than 20%. Lastly you should know the lumen values on the test do not correspond to any of the flashlight output settings. The purpose of these results is to analyze ray tracing, optical efficiency, and having a rough idea of what the beam shot will look like for the finished product. 

I suppose the lux value of each of the 4 settings can be estimated based on the results of this data through a simple percentage multiplier (I hope that I'm correct here Harold B). Note that this conversion method doesn't take into account how the LED becomes more or less efficient at a set drive current. 
So for result #1:
The .5lm mode will be 2164Lux(.5 x 1/172) = 6 lux at 1 meter
the 20lm mode will be 2164Lux(20 x 1/172) = 251 lux at 1 meter
The 80lm mode will be 2164Lux(80 x 1/172) = 1007 lux at 1 meter
The 400lm mode will be 2164Lux(400 x 1/172) = 5032 lux at 1 meter

The 3 tests are as follows:
1. The first test is using the current XM-L2 and reflector setup. The first data set in the chart below.
2. The second set of data is with the Nichea 219 C with the same focal point as the XM-L2. The second set of data in the chart below.
3. The final data set is with the Nichea 219 C with it's focal point re-adjusted. The third set of data in the chart below.






Here are the test parameter of the 3 data sets.














Here is a beam shot of the XM-L2 at a distance of 1M




Here is a beam shot of the XM-L2 at a distance of 10M




Here is what the ray trace looks like for the XM-L2















Here is a beam shot of the Nichea 219 C without adjusting the die height. Notice how just 0.2mm out of focus yields a doughnut. The beam shot is at a distance of 1M




Here is the beam shot of the Nihea 219 C once again at 10M.
















Here the Nichea 219 C has been re-focused. This shot is at a distance of 1M




Here again is the Nichea 219 C focused properly at a distance of 10M




Here is a ray trace of the Nichea 219 C when focused properly.











So as you can see the Nichea 219 C will throw much better than the XM-L2, but then again this light isn't designed for throw. In a small AA light I would much rather have a floody beam pattern and a lot of useable spill light. Sometimes when I'm taking a walk in the woods at night I completely remove the reflector so the flashlight beam gives everything around me an even wash of light. But then again I would say running candle mode is way too floody. I want this light to have just the right amount of flood to make it a useful EDC.


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## Harold_B (Jul 25, 2015)

I have my laptop with me (good thing I love my job!) so I can run simulations of the XM-L2 at your different settings over the weekend. I'll email the results. For not having a ray trace program at hand you did an excellent job designing your reflector. For that matter even if you had used a dedicated software to fine tune the surface you seem to have the beam shape you were looking for; a modest sized hot spot with good throw and a fair amount of flood around it. I rather like how the hot spot isn't really all that hot with a hard cut off. I can also look at making the 1 meter target larger to get an idea of total energy on the target as well as just the energy in the spot defined by the FWHM diameter. This should be a very nice light.


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## SA Condor (Jul 25, 2015)

I like the looks of the charts for the XM-L2 much better. I too find that for EDC a more floods light with some throw is better. Sure, it's fun casting a beam way out there, but I find that it's less practical for my real life uses!


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## campingnut (Jul 28, 2015)

Everything is looking great. I still need to say the original clip design both looks better and more secure. I personally would never clip a AA light on a hat brim, too heavy. AAA lights, yes.


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## jashhash (Jul 29, 2015)

Wow I'm getting a lot more interest in the original clip design. Perhaps I will make both clips after all. You can decide which one you prefer. Also here are a few more simulated beam shots courtesy of Harold B:




Here is the beam shot at the 20Lm setting




Here is another beam shot at the 80Lm setting




Lastly here is a beam shot for the 400Lm turbo setting


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## SA Condor (Jul 29, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Wow I'm getting a lot more interest in the original clip design. Perhaps I will make both clips after all.



That's good news. I too like the original clip design better and don't foresee myself using it on my hat!

Any chance you can give us some answers to these questions I posted earlier?



SA Condor said:


> Ok, so it won't effect shipping costs, but how much more will the charger/packaging add to the overall cost of the product?
> 
> Are we still looking at these price points on Kickstarter?
> 
> ...


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## Coltrane (Jul 29, 2015)

Definitely getting at least two... When is this campaign starting?


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## Tixx (Jul 29, 2015)

Coltrane said:


> Definitely getting at least two... When is this campaign starting?



was just coming here to ask that.


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## jashhash (Jul 30, 2015)

Hi SA Condor,
Yes I will get started on prototyping the 2nd clip too. As far as price points, I will be staying within budget on those prices. I may offer some additional rewards though such as eneloop batteries and chargers as optional extras. Also I will be offering tritium in Aluminum, Stainless steel, as well as Titanium. I hope to also make a copper option available, I will talk to my machinist more about that. 

Unfortunately my flashlight maker is still having trouble with the driver circuit (it is custom after all) and I'm paying another electrical engineer to produce the circuit. If there are no problems with the first samples I will be shipping a few to members on this forum, most likely in 2 weeks. After that forum members will have 1 week to review the light then I will be launching the kickstarter campaign shortly thereafter. As far as launch time, I'm hoping to have this launched sometime in mid to late August, though this project will require whatever time is necessary to work out the bugs. I'm sorry to keep you folks waiting, and trust me I'm impatient too!


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## SA Condor (Jul 30, 2015)

Thanks for the update! And that's good news about the additional offerings of tritium. I know we all like stuff NOW! But it's much better to have the bugs worked out and have a solid product to launch! Keep plugging away, get it all right, and I'll still be along for the ride. Thanks again for the update.


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## campingnut (Jul 30, 2015)

Solid copper with tritium...oh yeah!


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## jashhash (Jul 31, 2015)

Well unfortunately the first wire clip didn't turn out. The problem is at the point where the wire clip is welded together which causes that spot to lose it's springy property. Tomorrow I'm going to have the second clip design prototyped and here I worked out a few more iterations of the clip. I personally prefer clip design #3, what do you think?




Clip design #1




Clip design #2




Clip design #3


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## SA Condor (Jul 31, 2015)

I'm fine with #3. Obviously the most important thing is functionality. Clip 1 doesn't have spring, so the logical evolution is #3. It still has the same look, but hopefully will have the tension needed to work.


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## thomas_sti_red (Jul 31, 2015)

I too think #3 is the nicest.


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## Espionage Studio (Jul 31, 2015)

3rds for number 3!


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## rickyro (Jul 31, 2015)

For my understanding, all 3 options have the same principle as the original design, just different spring. So this means your second design turned out not working, which was actually foreseen by yourself and many others. I am glad that you come back to the original design which looks much solid and integrate to me. 

Of these three, I can expect the 3rd one has the best tolerance when trying to wedge the cloth in.


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## rickyro (Jul 31, 2015)

Check this. You will understand why I prefer the round only knurling. The square style is used a lot by Olight. And I have one S10. So I just want something different.


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## holygeez03 (Jul 31, 2015)

#1 looks best IMO aesthetically... but yeah, functionality is more important for the clip.


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## gunga (Jul 31, 2015)

I prefer #3 also


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## rjking (Jul 31, 2015)

3 :twothumbs


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## Amelia (Jul 31, 2015)

rjking said:


> 3 :twothumbs



3 For sure!


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## jashhash (Jul 31, 2015)

Alright I'm off to get clip #3 prototyped. Thanks everyone for your input.


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## campingnut (Aug 1, 2015)

Another vote for #3


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## KuanR (Aug 1, 2015)

#3 please!


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## nfetterly (Aug 2, 2015)

Another vote for #3, the lower the profile the better.


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## pvsampson (Aug 2, 2015)

Just read through the whole thread,and amazing how much I learned from it!

I want one of these in stainless when available,and I am sure plenty of other Australians would too in any of the variations.(SS with trits would be too cool!)


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## LookingForLight888 (Aug 5, 2015)

Just wondering what your target price will be . . .
Look forward to seeing it on Kickstarter.


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## jashhash (Aug 12, 2015)

In response to LFL888 these are still the price points that I hope to offer this light at:

$55 for black hard anodized aluminum
$70 for mill finished stainless steel
$130 for mill finished raw titanium
$145 for titanium with a titanium nitride coating
$240 for titanium + 8 tritium vials (those tritium vials are incredibly expensive)
$255 for titanium w/ nitride coating + 8 tritium vials 

Also as an Update I talked to my manufacturer today and he said the first batch of prototypes will be ready for review this Friday. Will see what this first batch looks like. I hope to post some updated progress photos at that time.


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## SA Condor (Aug 12, 2015)

Good deal, thanks for the update. Keep them coming!


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## RWT1405 (Aug 12, 2015)

Best of luck to you! Hoping it is all you hoped for!


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## gunga (Aug 12, 2015)

The protos will have a trit option right?


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## Espionage Studio (Aug 12, 2015)

Looking forward to these!


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## KuanR (Aug 12, 2015)

Great news! I'll take ice blue trits with my review light.


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## gunga (Aug 12, 2015)

Me too.


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## gunga (Aug 15, 2015)

Any updates?


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## jashhash (Aug 16, 2015)

Alright folks I'm proud to announce the machining of the flashlight body is finished, and it's gorgeous, it's cut so clean it literally sparkles. Also I successfully mounted the XM-L2 emitter straight to the copper slug which is working just great as a heatsink. I ran the light off my power supply at 2 amps and let me tell you the fins and flashlight head heat up pretty quick. Though the flashlight burns hot the heat is more isolated in the upper region. There are some parts still missing including the switch boot and the driver circuit is still being worked on. My electrical engineer is having a real hard time cramming all the circuitry in such a tight space. I will be meeting up with him this Thursday to discuss more about the driver circuit and hopefully not too many compromises will need to be made. In the mean time I leave you with some absolutely stunning photos. 
































forgive my rough soldering job on the lead wires.


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## snoop75 (Aug 16, 2015)

I am in love!!!


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## 100eyes (Aug 16, 2015)

Great looking light, though I'm not a fan of wire clips because I find them too flimsy; I don't like how they tend to wiggle around in your hand.

Maybe if a future revision has memory mode I'll buy one, that's unfortunately a dealbreaker for me.


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## SA Condor (Aug 16, 2015)

Looking good! Take your time and do it right.


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## Espionage Studio (Aug 16, 2015)

Looking good


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## nfetterly (Aug 16, 2015)

Looks Great !!


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## Tac Gunner (Aug 16, 2015)

Great looking light with nice features!


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## mckeand13 (Aug 16, 2015)

Which material is that? Al or Ti?

Either way, that looks sweet!


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## rickyro (Aug 16, 2015)

Nice photos and great looking light! Congrats!


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## KuanR (Aug 16, 2015)

The machining looks fantastic along with the tritium fin. I can't wait to meet up with you to get this light


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## gunga (Aug 16, 2015)

Looks awesome!


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## 4rmless (Aug 17, 2015)

I am so in on this kickstarter.

Did you consider making the fins and pill a single piece of copper for the ultimate in thermal transfer? I guess it means externally exposed copper, but it'd look pretty cool (see the Sinner Ti-XC), even more so if you can get a black nitride coating.


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## Coltrane (Aug 17, 2015)

I don't like clips. Will remove it anyway. It breaks the design of the flashlight.


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## mckeand13 (Aug 17, 2015)

I would highly suggest that for the lights that aren't getting trits, that the grooves be cut much shallower. I think it would look awkward with deep grooves, thin fins, and nothing filling the gaps. It would certainly be a pocket fuzz collector as well. 

Could you post a rendering of the black anodized AL with shallow grooves?

Thanks.


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## shrike2222 (Aug 17, 2015)

Great light!

I hope see it soon on Kickstater!


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## jashhash (Aug 18, 2015)

Hi everyone, great to hear all of your feedback. Since I have a prototype on hand I've been trying to tweak the wire clip with a pliers but no matter what I do it just doesn't feel right. I pretty much gave up on clip design #2 and will be going towards clip design #3 (more details to follow). The trouble with clips is it's really hard to get it just right since you can draw it in CAD but then when you actually use it... 

So in response to some comments:

mckeand13 asked:


> Which material is that? Al or Ti?


These first samples are stainless steel.

4rmless asked:


> Did you consider making the fins and pill a single piece of copper for the ultimate in thermal transfer? I guess it means externally exposed copper, but it'd look pretty cool (see the Sinner Ti-XC), even more so if you can get a black nitride coating.


I considered this but it's my personal preference for the fins color and finish to match the entire flashlight. The fact that the copper slug is soldered directly to the LED should be more than enough thermal management. 

mckeand13 asked:


> I would highly suggest that for the lights that aren't getting trits, that the grooves be cut much shallower.


Yes I agree, deep fins with nothing to fill them would look odd. At first I had the idea of using tiny glow powder filled glass tubes, but this turned out to be too messy (messy is difficult to control on a mass manufacturing scale). My manufacturer came up with the idea of filling the space with some 3mm diameter aluminum rods which looks pretty cool. A bit like the gatlight from long time ago. I like his idea and will be implementing this in the non-trit versions.


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## jashhash (Aug 18, 2015)

alright here is clip design #3. I'm using the same attachment concept as clip #1 but leaving the wire ends unwelded. The wire thickness has been increased from 1.5mm to 1.7mm to make it thicker/stronger/stiffer since there is only one wire on the clip part rather than 2. Attached on the wire ends are 5mm diameter stainless steel balls to protect the exposed wire end.


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## snowlover91 (Aug 18, 2015)

I have an idea for the clip design which may work and be quite easy to design and implement. One of the best and easiest designs to use would be something similar to the Nitecore EX11.2. It has a screw on clip which simply has a design similar to what you already have for the tail cap area. All that would be needed is for one of the find to be solid except have two small threaded holes and you could put a nice screw on clip. I think this would be superior to any clip on design and would prevent lost pocket clips while increasing durability. Here is a link to a few pictures showing how it screws on and I think it would work great on this light with a similar design. 

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/3918?destination=node/3918&c019_name=99


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## rickyro (Aug 18, 2015)

jashhash said:


> alright here is clip design #3. I'm using the same attachment concept as clip #1 but leaving the wire ends unwelded. The wire thickness has been increased from 1.5mm to 1.7mm to make it thicker/stronger/stiffer since there is only one wire on the clip part rather than 2. Attached on the wire ends are 5mm diameter stainless steel balls to protect the exposed wire end.




I think this design #3 may fail even further. Maybe it is better that you come back to the traditional screw on design, such as McGizmo, Zebralight and many others are doing. With this design #3, you may lose many potential buyers. Just my personal opinion.


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## rickyro (Aug 18, 2015)

Or maybe you can add two screws on the bottom, beside the button, to help fix the wire clip in the design #1. Just like Spyderco is doing with their wire clips. But I don't know if you can find enough space there.


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## gunga (Aug 18, 2015)

I like snowlover91's idea. A backing plate would allow a McGizmo or other clip to bolt on. Design #3. Ugh. That is really hideous. A bolt somewhere might help (like Rickyro's suggestion ).


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## snowlover91 (Aug 18, 2015)

gunga said:


> I like snowlover91's idea. A backing plate would allow a McGizmo or other clip to bolt on. Design #3. Ugh. That is really hideous. A bolt somewhere might help (like Rickyro's suggestion ).



The ex11.2 design is perfect IMO because you don't even need a backing plate. It simply is two tapped holes and you align the clip and put the screws in! Super simple, works great and is very secure. It's a great design and something similar would work well on this light without really affecting anything at all. A pocket clip is one of the most important parts of the light and if it's not sturdy or reliable it will turn away many potential buyers. Many lights with clip ons I think twice about and have to REALLY like the light to buy it.


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## gunga (Aug 18, 2015)

The problem is that the tailcap is already machined, right? Or can we still do tapped holes?


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## rickyro (Aug 18, 2015)

snowlover91 said:


> The ex11.2 design is perfect IMO because you don't even need a backing plate. It simply is two tapped holes and you align the clip and put the screws in! Super simple, works great and is very secure. It's a great design and something similar would work well on this light without really affecting anything at all. A pocket clip is one of the most important parts of the light and if it's not sturdy or reliable it will turn away many potential buyers. Many lights with clip ons I think twice about and have to REALLY like the light to buy it.



Totally agree with you. The design of ex11.2 is simple and practical. McGizmo's design is similar. But I don't have my Haiku beside me so I cannot check if those two screws penetrate or not. I think Eagletac D25a is also using the same desgin.


For a AA light, I think a strong and reliable clip is a must.

AAA light, a key-chain connection is good enough. Clip is not necessarily big. But Promethus clip for Peak is very simple and nice, not adding too much volume.

18650 light, for a compact design, clip is good, such as SC62 from Zebralight, or even HDS 18680 and Malkoff MD2; for a tactical design, such as ElZetta Beta, clip is just too small, a lanyard is preferred. 


But for a AA light, it is a perfect size to be carried mostly by clip. For a AA light, if it features no reliable clip, I would rather not buy it.


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## rickyro (Aug 18, 2015)

gunga said:


> The problem is that the tailcap is already machined, right? Or can we still do tapped holes?




It was already tapped with a narrow slot there seeing from the pictures. Maybe two threaded holes with a litter bigger diameter than the width of that slot can be additionally tapped to install the clip there.


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## rickyro (Aug 18, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hi everyone, great to hear all of your feedback. Since I have a prototype on hand I've been trying to tweak the wire clip with a pliers but no matter what I do it just doesn't feel right. I pretty much gave up on clip design #2 and will be going towards clip design #3 (more details to follow). The trouble with clips is it's really hard to get it just right since you can draw it in CAD but then when you actually use it...
> 
> So in response to some comments:
> 
> ...



The last one is a good news. I like the Gatlight design. Maybe I will choose this one if you can change the clip design. Or maybe can you make the rod material to be the same as the body? For example, if it is titanium, the rod is also titanium so that the patina and deterioration will be the same. This may bring some problem with the sourcing, but I think it is worth to do that.

$130 for mill finished raw titanium *with aluminum/ (or titanium? if possible) rods*


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## SA Condor (Aug 18, 2015)

I agree with everyone else. I don't like the new rendering of the clip at all! They've provided some good suggestions already, so I don't need to add to that part of the conversation.


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## stephenk (Aug 19, 2015)

I'm looking for a <$100 low to medium brightness warm tint high CRI light for light painting and this seems to fit the bill. I look forward to seeing it on Kickstarter.

Just a quick question - what IPX rating is expected for this light?
Also, I'd advise the first post in the thread is kept as up to date as possible of the current specifications. 
Great work!


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## jashhash (Aug 19, 2015)

Just to give you and understanding of what's going on over here on the other side of the world. I have 2 flashlight manufacturers collaborating on this project. The first is Luckysun, a flashlight company who does absolutely stunning machining as you see in the above photos, however their in-house electrical engineer wasn't able to design a driver to my specs. Later on in the project I met the owner of another flashlight manufacturer Manker lights who's owner is a great electrical engineer but doesn't own any CNC equipment. As it turns out these companies working together can produce a fantastic flashlight. I had lunch with the owner of Manker today and we talked more about his difficulty in designing the constant current circuit board down small enough to fit inside the driver compartment of the flashlight. The good news is that he says that he can do it but will require another 2 weeks to get it all figured out. The better news is that he said he can increase the brightness of the turbo mode from 2 amps to 2.4 amps and also add a 2 minute timer on the turbo mode to reduce the brightness to 1amp to prevent overheating. 

Thank's everyone here for their input and yes I am struggling with adding a clip design to the light at this point especially since the machining is already finished. At this point I'm giving up on the wire form clip idea and will be moving on to making a stamped clip. I'm making a design revision to narrow the slot on the back to incorporate snowlover91's idea of putting on a bolt on style clip like the EX11.2. Please note that for these first article samples I will be tapping through the slot and will be using a buy out clip. If funding is successful though I will be getting a new stamp die design made and narrow one of the slots to add two tapped holes. I'm off to the electronics district to find a clip.


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## gunga (Aug 19, 2015)

Snowlover is not suggesting you narrow the slot and thread it. He is suggesting you replace one of the slots with 2 tapped holes. I agree. Perhaps this can be done on production models. You could offer production tailcaps to the testers with these holes. Could you just purchase a good quality clip instead of making it? Not a McGizmo ($25-30 each!) but something you find.

Btw. I have heard good things about Manker.


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## jashhash (Aug 19, 2015)

Alright here is what I found in the electronics district which will be more or less what will be on the final product. I talked to my flashlight maker about tapping the slots to add a clip like this, but we both arrived at the conclusion that this would tear out too easily. Also I'm not quite satisfied with this clip design since the material is too thin and the design doesn't match with the light that I'm designing. So now the situation is, I won't be offering a clip on the review samples, but if the Kickstarter campaign is successful I will pay for having a stamp die made for a good quality screw on clip similar to what's in the photos below. For those who sign up to be reviewers I will send you an extra tail cap with a switch if the kickstarter campaign is funded successfully. 










A little more about Manker today from our meeting:
I had a chance of playing with Manker's new titanium light today and am quite impressed by the construction quality. I especially like the interesting switch design; the central section of the light rotates which toggles between 3 brightness levels, it appears to be a 5lm low, 100lm med, and 500lm turbo (don't quote me on these brightness levels). The switch and light are completely waterproof to 1 meter depth. The light uses CR123a batteries. He uses a high frequency PWM driver in this light. We talked a bit and I suggested that he make an AA version of this light and change the driver to constant current. I can tell you that he certainly knows his stuff when it comes to flashlights and he is a true flashaholic since he cares about the quality of his light and isn't just in it for the money. He seems quite interested in doing business direct with CPF instead of going through an international distributor. Also it would be best to ignore the specs written on amazon, it was written by an international distributor who obviously doesn't know a thing about flashlights. His flashlight can be seen here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B011BQ0O1Q/?tag=cpf0b6-20


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## Julian Holtz (Aug 19, 2015)

Hi!

I did not like the clip of my SC51W, so I made a new one from a stainless steel bicycle spoke.













Maybe you like this idea.


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## rickyro (Aug 19, 2015)

Julian Holtz said:


> Hi!
> 
> I did not like the clip of my SC51W, so I made a new one from a stainless steel bicycle spoke.
> 
> ...




Great job!


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## snowlover91 (Aug 19, 2015)

I think the design could easily accommodate a clip design like I referenced earlier. Another light you may want to look at for ideas is the Nitecore SRT3 which has two tapped holes. The best part of this feature is that if you put them close together like the Nitecore lights did then it opens it up for people to customize it with aftermarket clips like McGizmo and others. Here on CPF the pocket clip for a light this size will be critical in selling these lights, I don't think you will see as good of a response with either a clip on or no pocket clip initially. I know I wouldn't put money into it if no pocket clip is included or if it's a clip on, they're too easy to lose and not sturdy. 

If you fill in one of the slots on the tail cap and then tap it you should have a nice sturdy pocket clip that allows people to also buy aftermarket clips and customize the light. You could also design it similar to the SRT3 if you are worried about the holes not providing a study anchor and make them a little deeper or you could add a backing plate to the clip like the D10 lights had to provide extra depth to tap the screw into. Either way I feel it's important to include a screw on pocket clip or at least tap two holes like the EX11.2 or SRT3 lights have to allow this option.


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## gunga (Aug 19, 2015)

I agree completely. You could also make a slot on the body to at least fit a slip on clip though this is less preferable.


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## gunga (Aug 19, 2015)

Note. I plan on trying a convoy bolt in clip. It fits many hosts. Stainless. $2. Quite good.


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## Coltrane (Aug 19, 2015)

Any idea when the projects starts?


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## jashhash (Aug 21, 2015)

That's an awesome looking home made bicycle spoke clip Julian, you did a great job of bending it too, did you bend that yourself with a pliers or use a wire bending machine? 

snowlover91, I think this is an excellent idea and will definitely be providing a good clip with the final design. I like the approach of using a clip and a tapped backing plate that goes behind the slot. 

That's a great idea Gunga! I will save you the trouble and buy a few convoy clips and try them out, if they work all reviewers will get a convoy clip. Also a large wide slot will be able to accommodate a wide variety of after market clips! 

Coltrane, I'm still waiting for the driver circuit to be completed which will take another 10 days. It's been a real tough fight getting the driver circuit just right, but it's really one of the most crucial elements of the flashlight. The most difficult part is to make all the settings constant current instead of PWM. I can tell you that a constant current driver is a whole lot more complicated than a PWM and the price difference in manufacturing is huge as well. The constant current driver cost 6x more than an equivalent PWM driver. The project will hopefully be launched 3 weeks from today if there aren't any more setbacks.


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## gunga (Aug 21, 2015)

Good to hear. Yes, the circuit most important. The convoy clip uses nuts in the back. They will do for the test models but a backing plate is better. I suggest M2.5 or 4-40 sized bolts for the production runs.


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## Camo5 (Aug 22, 2015)

Personally i think the clip needs to be as low profile as possible, any object sticking out should be completely smooth so as not to catch on things...if you haven't, check out olight's s30R clip design. It's 1.5mm thick steel with a 2mm clip that fits around a slot. The clip wraps almost completely around the light and grips so tight it scratches the anodizing finish off when I twist it. The clip itself plastically deforms before it detaches (30 lb force) Low profile and makes it a wonderful pocket carry, it's already worn from rubbing against things (edc in front pocket) but nothing can catch.

What exactly is the issue with the original inverted wrap around clip?


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## seasam (Aug 22, 2015)

I don't think the Convoy clip is what you want. It works well with a $15 host, but I don't see it being nice enough for this light. My 2c.


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## gunga (Aug 22, 2015)

It is not intended to be the final clip choice.


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## jashhash (Aug 23, 2015)

The first wrap around clip idea didn't work because the CNC wire bending process was not able to bend the clip in that exact geometry. CNC wire benders need a small 3mm flat spot before certain curves. Also when the clip ends are welded together it breaks the heat treating of the material so when you go to stretch the clip over the flashlight it bends but wont spring back to it's original position. 

Yes I understand the convoy clip may not be the best. I haven't personally used one yet, if it's not an awesome solution than I will make sure the clip is awesome for the final product. I personally like the feel of the titanium clips, they are strong and highly elastic which makes it ideal for making a clip. A titanium clip may put the light over budget though. What do you think of offering the clip as an optional extra. that way I can keep my prices low for those who would never use the clip anyways. I think a titanium clip would be a $5 adder, not too much. I think the people who EDC everyday would appreciate a high quality titanium clip over a stainless steel one any day.


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## Espionage Studio (Aug 23, 2015)

Great idea to me.


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## gunga (Aug 23, 2015)

Yep. Great idea.


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## KuanR (Aug 23, 2015)

I'm all for a nice titanium clip and I think it's a must on a single cell EDC light


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## snowlover91 (Aug 23, 2015)

It's a great idea for the titanium clip, those who will pay for a good quality flashlight like myself and many on here will gladly pay $5 extra for a great clip. A titanium one would be excellent and highly recommended!


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## stephenk (Aug 23, 2015)

I have no issues with the clip being an optional extra - don't need it myself (though I may not be speaking for the majority). 
After looking for <$100 Hi-CRI 3000k lights and failing to find any, I'm very very keen on this light!


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## Amelia (Aug 23, 2015)

snowlover91 said:


> It's a great idea for the titanium clip, those who will pay for a good quality flashlight like myself and many on here will gladly pay $5 extra for a great clip. A titanium one would be excellent and highly recommended!



I'm in agreement with this.


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## jashhash (Aug 23, 2015)

Alright folks here is a design for a clip that ive been working on. This will be stamped out of 1mm thk titanium and will be an optional adder. I talked to my flashlight maker about the backing plate idea and they said such a tiny machined part would be difficult to make and it would be more cost effective and secure to change the slot design. So below is a change to one of the two slots, see that i've reduced the width of the slot and added 2 tapped holes on the side to accommodate the clip. 




With the clip installed




Without the clip installed


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## gunga (Aug 23, 2015)

Looks pretty good. Can I ask why you are doing the design with a narrow slot vs just removing the slot and doing 2 tapped holes? That way the clip design is much simpler.


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## jashhash (Aug 23, 2015)

Design-wise I think it looks a bit bare without the extra slot. Also if you wanted to use an aftermarket clip you still have that option as well. I still need to run this design by a die stamping company to see if they can produce the clip.


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## gunga (Aug 23, 2015)

I know what you mean about looking bare but I don't think the design is super practical. However, I will let you determine if it is. Btw, what aftermarket clip do you mean?


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## jashhash (Aug 23, 2015)

Sorry what I meant to say is if you wanted to buy a bolt on clip like the convoy you can install it in the wide slot. then you still have that narrow slot for a lanyard attachment or keychain.


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## gunga (Aug 23, 2015)

How wide are the slots? A ti aftermarket clip based on m2.5 bolts uses 3mm holes that are 7mm centre to centre. The convoy clip uses slightly wider spacing based on m2 bolts (not measured).


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## jashhash (Aug 23, 2015)

Good point. The large slot is 12mm long however they are 2mm wide so the bolts in the after market clips probably wont slip through (I'm not sure what screw size they are using on the convoy clip).


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## seasam (Aug 23, 2015)

Those renderings with the clip look pretty cool, I like the idea of an additional add on charge for the clip to keep the quality up. As far as clip design, holes, slots, etc... I don't think you can win on that one. For example, if there were threaded holes people who don't run the clip aren't going to like that there are threaded holes with nothing in them :duh2:


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## jashhash (Aug 23, 2015)

Stamped clips always have a burred edge where the blank is punched out, the advantage of a machined clip is all the surfaces would be smooth. Here I drew a machined titanium clip. Of course this would be slightly more expensive option. This machined clip is based on a titanium pen I have sitting on my desk which was a gift from Manker which has the best pen clip I've ever used. 





mankers pen with a titanium clip




Machined clip




Without clip installed


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## Espionage Studio (Aug 23, 2015)

Not a deal breaker but I think it would be better if that clip was in the center of the tab. What if both sides of the flashlights "tab" had a narrow slot with the two clip holes in the center like this: -••- so it would be uniform on each side of the light. Possibly thread both sides in case of stripped threads? AND as an added bonus it's the letter "x" in Morse code (dash dot dot dash). That way you could incorporate the letter X into the product name...the letter x always sells ;-) PS: I would again up my pledge for a milled clip like that if that's how it will be.


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## mckeand13 (Aug 23, 2015)

I'll make it easy for you. Skip the clip altogether.

I remove any clips from my lights as pull them out the box, I can't stand them.


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## SA Condor (Aug 23, 2015)

A $5 increase isn't bad. For me, a clip on a light this size is a must too. Just take your time and get it right! That's the most important thing.


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## gunga (Aug 23, 2015)

Yep. Centre the holes. The milled clip looks great but choose whatever works best for your kickstarter.


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## Coltrane (Aug 23, 2015)

Looks great to me offcenter. Not a clip fan but really nice. Would even consider leaving it on...


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## Espionage Studio (Aug 23, 2015)

I think the clip on that pen looks fantastic


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## snowlover91 (Aug 23, 2015)

Love the idea for the clip! I would center it if possible it would look a little better that way but the clip design looks great and would give us the option to pay for one or not depending on a persons preference. I would definitely go for this light with a clip like that for sure.


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## jashhash (Aug 24, 2015)

Alright here is another slight change to the milled clip. I widened the clip a little to accommodate slightly larger mounting screws. Believe it or not small details are the most expensive parts to machine (especially in titanium) so increasing the hole/slot diameter will make a more robust clip and also bring the machining cost down. However, with the slightly wider clip there is only room for the 2 mounting holes to receive the clip as you can see in the renderings. The clip has also been centered as what is popularly suggested. The clip clearance has also been adjusted to accommodate most leather belts measuring 1-1/4"wide and 1/8"thick. 




10mm wide clip installed




without clip


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## Espionage Studio (Aug 24, 2015)

Nailed it. Looks really nice, I like it centered! I would guess most people clip these in a pocket though and not over a belt (I could be wrong).


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## monanza (Aug 24, 2015)

The clip looks great. How much more expensive would it be to machine if the base tapered to a more moderate clip width? This should help avoid overwhelming the beautifully machined body.


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## gunga (Aug 24, 2015)

I agree with the above statement. Also, I do think most people use as a pocket clip not a belt clip. Looks great!


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## jashhash (Aug 24, 2015)

I'm going to talk to my machinist today about pricing and see if I can get a sample of this clip knocked out in titanium. The clip looks overwhelming in that view because of the perspective but I think from other views it looks correctly proportioned. 




Front view




Side view


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## snowlover91 (Aug 24, 2015)

Excellent! I like the two mounting screw holes and the titanium clip looks really nice! Looking forward to this project and hope we can get it off the ground as I would love one of these lights.


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## rickyro (Aug 24, 2015)

I prefer the clip design in post #263 much more than that in #283.

reasons:
1. 263 design is very smart having a very high position so that when clipped in the pocket the whole light can be hidden
2. the new design is too wide at the top, make it not so pocket friendly or not so friendly in the palm

By the way, both design need to add one extra small round hole above that long slot so that key-chain ring can be installed there if needed.


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## 4rmless (Aug 24, 2015)

I also hugely prefer the stamped clip. It looks to me like it wins on a few points:

1. Cheaper to produce.
2. Easier 3rd party clip compatibility (just make the spacing and threads match Convoy/McGizmo or whatever)
3. Lower profile, it clearly sits flatter to the flashlight body.
4. Deeper carry, the fold over from the top design looks great, would allow the light to sit low in your pocket.

The flat design also gives space for your logo if you wanted it.


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## tab665 (Aug 24, 2015)

4rmless said:


> I also hugely prefer the stamped clip. It looks to me like it wins on a few points:
> 
> 1. Cheaper to produce.
> 2. Easier 3rd party clip compatibility (just make the spacing and threads match Convoy/McGizmo or whatever)
> ...


not to mention the way its angles on the light will give the clip some "springy-ness". the machined clip seems like it would have no give to it.


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## nimdabew (Aug 24, 2015)

4rmless said:


> I also hugely prefer the stamped clip. It looks to me like it wins on a few points:
> 
> 1. Cheaper to produce.
> 2. Easier 3rd party clip compatibility (just make the spacing and threads match Convoy/McGizmo or whatever)
> ...


This. A titanium clip similar to this would be awesome. Tenatively sign me up for one of the stainless versions. 

http://darksucks.com/store DS_PreonClip.html


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## gunga (Aug 24, 2015)

If there is a tailcap on the light, a preon style clip could certainly work. You would need to ensure the circuit is still complete with the clip installed though. I'm glad we are exploring this.


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## onthebeam (Aug 24, 2015)

It might be the angle, but this latest clip design is not as aesthetically pleasing to my eye compared to the beautiful look of the version in post 263. Although clearly a possibly more functional approach, it has a tougher look, overdominating the stunning design of this innovative flashlight visually worthy of display in the Museum of Modern Art.

I wouldn't put this amazing flashlight on my belt. Of course, if it could morph into a flashlight/belt buckle combination, I might just change my tune!


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## bjt3833 (Aug 24, 2015)

I prefer #263's clip also. It definitely looks more springy for all the various pocket thickness on pants from the super thin cargo to a reinforced front denim pocket.


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## SA Condor (Aug 24, 2015)

jashhash said:


> With the clip installed



I too like this design better. The other one is classy for sure, but it just doesn't do it for me. I will say though, no matter which one ends up being done, it needs to be tapped/spaced in order to accommodate the other aftermarket clips. We all like our options!


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## gunga (Aug 24, 2015)

3mm holes, 7mm center to center is the spacing on the ti and steel clone clips. It will fit McGizmo but will leave gaps in the centre. Maybe doing McGizmo spacing and size is better? 4-40 bolts. Other sizes not measured yet.


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## Tixx (Aug 24, 2015)

Personally I will not be using the clip. Start this thing up before the clip debate adds another month!


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## Espionage Studio (Aug 24, 2015)

Most people will be using the clip. I like the milled design but would be stoked if I could put a mcgizmo clip on it per Gunga's suggestion.


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## Tixx (Aug 24, 2015)

Espionage Studio said:


> Most people will be using the clip. I like the milled design but would be stoked if I could put a mcgizmo clip on it per Gunga's suggestion.


Not sure what most people will do and why I could only speak for myself. Been a long time since I've seen anyone clipping their light to their pocket.


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## gunga (Aug 24, 2015)

Eh?I guess you don't see me every day. Since you are doing tapped holes anyways, why not just do it to fit a McGizmo clip and also offer your own design. Then people can buy your clip with the option to use a McGizmo or equivalent. I can measure my clip if it helps.

Edit: also note that your clip has bolts drilled straight in. Aftermarket clips will need the holes on the light radius (ie. curve).


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## gunga (Aug 24, 2015)

Here is some info I got for a 1" (25mm) light, drilled to be compatible with McGizmo style clips.
The screws are 4-40. There are 26 degrees between the holes on the .990" OD (if using rotary table). It looks to be about .225" from center to center at 25mm. On that diameter (20mm), the distance between centers will be .178".

The drill size for a 4-40 cutting tap is a #43 drill or a 3/32. If you use a forming tap, it's a #39 or around .099"

It would be nice to use these measurements to allow for ti McGizmo bolts, but it need not be exactly that since the clips have wide slots with some leeway.
​


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## KuanR (Aug 25, 2015)

I have a spare McGizmo clip I can send you for test fitting


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## TheShadowGuy (Aug 25, 2015)

I love this light so far! It looks pretty awesome- I'm a sucker for standard size and Li-Ion support in one package, and the modes look good.

For the lower levels without tritium though, would the rods be replaceable later or built in? Would you be able to put cheap glow-in-the-dark plastic rods in as an option?


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## jashhash (Aug 25, 2015)

Hey folks, sorry it's been so long. I'm definitely going in the direction of the milled clip at this point. I think it's too much risk hoping a stamped clip will turn out just right post launch. If anything goes wrong with the stamp die, or the clip come out too stiff or too flimsy there isn't much I can do once the stamp die is already produced. Also I don't know a stamp die maker that I really trust with producing high quality over here. My thought is I already have a machinist who does awesome work so I'm going to let him do the clip as well. Also the milled clip can be easily tweaked by shaving off a few mills till the springiness is right at the sweet spot. Unfortunately the hole spacing for the clip is 5mm apart so it won't fit other clips, I hope this isn't a deal breaker for you folks. Thank you for your input, and it does help me make decisions, however I know I can't please everyone so at the end of the day I have to make a decision. Overall I just want to make this project as flawless as possible.


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## lunas (Aug 25, 2015)

what if you made the tritium section modular with titanium, aluminum, steel, acrylic discs you could alternate materials

4 disc of titanium they could each have a different anodization color easily achieved via electrolysis or humm from the inital design tritium could be dropped from the light in favor of 3 more titanium disc or make it all acrylic...

There would be 3 acrylic disc to diffuse and spread the light from the trits in addition make them protected from impact from keys and such as you said those buggers are expensive. 

The disc could be keyed so they cant rotate on the central shaft


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## mckeand13 (Aug 26, 2015)

Can you make the clip an option?

I won't use it so I'd prefer to not pay for it. 

Thanks


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## campingnut (Aug 26, 2015)

I believe as long as the clip is securely attached and is removeable, most will be happy with it.


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## monanza (Aug 26, 2015)

You can always offer stamped clips when you solve the manufacturing issues to your satisfaction.


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## rickyro (Aug 26, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hey folks, sorry it's been so long. I'm definitely going in the direction of the milled clip at this point. I think it's too much risk hoping a stamped clip will turn out just right post launch. If anything goes wrong with the stamp die, or the clip come out too stiff or too flimsy there isn't much I can do once the stamp die is already produced. Also I don't know a stamp die maker that I really trust with producing high quality over here. My thought is I already have a machinist who does awesome work so I'm going to let him do the clip as well. Also the milled clip can be easily tweaked by shaving off a few mills till the springiness is right at the sweet spot. Unfortunately the hole spacing for the clip is 5mm apart so it won't fit other clips, I hope this isn't a deal breaker for you folks. Thank you for your input, and it does help me make decisions, however I know I can't please everyone so at the end of the day I have to make a decision. Overall I just want to make this project as flawless as possible.



The milled clip is OK for me even it is not preferred. 


But please do add one extra separate small round hole above the long slot (make the slot shorter) just under the two screws. This hole is for key chain ring (or any ring, such as for camping clip) installation. I found it very useful with my McGizmo clip with that extra tapped hole. Of course, Don adds that hole tapped for tripod mount since the clip has already another separate rounded rectangular hole above. But that tapped round hole is just perfect position to install any ring. You don't need to have the third rounded rectangular hole. Just one separate round hole is enough.


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## gunga (Aug 26, 2015)

Why don't you put the ring on the other tail fin with the slot?


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## rickyro (Aug 26, 2015)

gunga said:


> Why don't you put the ring on the other tail fin with the slot?




I don't understand what tail fin is. :candle:

But if put the ring on that long slot, the ring will slide within it and the position is not fixed.


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## gunga (Aug 26, 2015)

The tail cap has two "fins". One is drilled to mount the clip. The other has a slot in it. That is a good place for a keyring.


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## rickyro (Aug 26, 2015)

gunga said:


> The tail cap has two "fins". One is drilled to mount the clip. The other has a slot in it. That is a good place for a keyring.



That slot is just too long. Check the design of McGizmo clip, add a hole to be at least similar like that right one. No need to have third tapped hole for tripod mount.


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## gunga (Aug 26, 2015)

Uh. Okay...


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## jashhash (Aug 26, 2015)

Hi Ricky, I had intended one of the back fins of the flashlight for keychain attachment and the other to be for clip attachment. The slot for the keychain attachment is 12mm wide so your keys shouldn't slide around too much on that loop. In other news (way off topic) since this flashlight has been taking longer than anticipated to develop I will be launching another much smaller scale filler project on kickstarter this coming Monday which will be some precision machined fridge magnets. I have to keep busy here so this will fill in the development gap of the flashlight. Don't worry this project won't delay the launch of the flashlight I just have to keep busy here to support my family.


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## SA Condor (Aug 26, 2015)

Your right, that is WAY off topic! But cool non the less. Be sure to post up details here so we know when the product launches. My wife and I literally were just saying that we needed some new/better magnets for our fridge.


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## stephenk (Aug 26, 2015)

Do the fridge magnets have a warm tint and high CRI?


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## jashhash (Aug 26, 2015)

Hah you crack me up Stephen. Fridge magnets are incredibly easy compared to flashlights. I wouldn't even try making a flashlight for you all if I hadn't been in the lighting business so long. The amount of knowledgeable people on this forum is down right intimidating.


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## rickyro (Aug 26, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hi Ricky, I had intended one of the back fins of the flashlight for keychain attachment and the other to be for clip attachment. The slot for the keychain attachment is 12mm wide so your keys shouldn't slide around too much on that loop. In other news (way off topic) since this flashlight has been taking longer than anticipated to develop I will be launching another much smaller scale filler project on kickstarter this coming Monday which will be some precision machined fridge magnets. I have to keep busy here so this will fill in the development gap of the flashlight. Don't worry this project won't delay the launch of the flashlight I just have to keep busy here to support my family.




Ah, now I understand what back fins are. You mean the slot beside the button.

That place may hurt the tail sitting and button operation with key chain ring installed there. I really don't like this idea so I never thought about it. I thought it just works as decoration!


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## FLfrk (Aug 26, 2015)

I just discovered this thread, and it is fascinating. It is hard to get a sense of the size of the prototypes. Would it be possible to include a picture of the prototype next to a AA battery, or something to give it perspective, in the next update? That would be much appreciated. Keep up the good work!

edit: I know the dimensions are mentioned in the first post, but I don't have a good way to measure that currently, and was hoping for a visual. Also, are those initial dimensions still the same this far along in the process?

Also, not having any tritium lights myself, and really liking how these look, I was wondering if there was any possibility you could alternate the trits so there are only 4, and the other 4 would be the filler material, thus halving the cost of the trits, but still giving the illuminated effect. Just a thought.


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## jashhash (Aug 30, 2015)

I don't have a physical prototype on me at the moment since its back at the machinist for some trimming but here is a rendering of what the flashlight looks like next to an AA battery. As of now I've decided to only make tritium lights with 8 inserts. I have to keep some sort of standardization for production otherwise the assembly will get really confusing. In other news the magnet project will be launched today (8/31/15) at 12:30pm New York time. If you would like to have a sneek peak of this project you can see it here on the preview link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2112614854/1098576537?token=6f4a1b9e


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## jashhash (Aug 30, 2015)

Sorry double post.


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## gunga (Aug 30, 2015)

Looks nice. So can testers use the clip when available? Does it require a new tailcap or whole body tube?


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## jashhash (Aug 30, 2015)

Unfortunately the clip won't be ready for testers. If the campaign is a success then I will mail out a new body tube along with a clip to all those here who are doing the testing. I will actually have to make a whole new body tube to add the clip on and I can sense that my machinist is getting a little irritated with me for making all these adjustments. Anyways they will be happy when they get the larger order quantity which they require for production.


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## gunga (Sep 2, 2015)

Yes. I hope this is possible so reviewers don't miss out on final features.


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## nimdabew (Sep 2, 2015)

Has there been a decision on what you are going to put in the slots that don't have tritium vials or will the holes not be milled...? I am trying to make the mental leap for the titanium tritium version.


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## jashhash (Sep 5, 2015)

Hi Everyone. The new machined clip is in production now and should be arriving at my door in 3-4 days. I'm only having 1 clip made so I can send it out with one of the sample flashlight, however it will need to be bolted into the slots (and awkwardly so) truthfully the clip won't fit properly until the actual production model is finished. Nevertheless I will make one clip available for review to one lucky person here (Caugh...* Gunga) so you can at least try it out and feel the springiness of it. 
On Monday I have a meeting with Mr. Manker who is finished with the circuit board now. I will be testing his circuit at that time to see how it performs, more news on this to follow on Monday. As for the flashlights without tritium tubes they will have S/S rod inserts like shown in the photo below. This will make a cohesive design, though they don't serve the function of lighting up as the tritium does.


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## KuanR (Sep 5, 2015)

I would like to see the clip if possible. I could come see it in person before you send it off to Mike (gunga) since he's the clip guru :naughty:


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## gunga (Sep 5, 2015)

Clip guru? He he he..

Edit. Btw, I'm honoured to be the one testing the clip.


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## stephenk (Sep 5, 2015)

Looks good. I just hope it is available before the Aussie dollar plunges even further in value!


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## jashhash (Sep 6, 2015)

Hey folks. good news the clip arrived early today and I received not 1 but 2 samples (which was unexpected). One of the clips is polished titanium while the other is mill finish. My thoughts are the polished one looks slightly better but I'm waiting to hear back on the price difference. The titanium clip will be an optional add on for all flashlight models, and will ONLY be available in grade 5 titanium. Why grade 5 titanium? because grade 5 titanium has a yield strength almost double that of stainless steel making it the ideal clip material. Below are some pictures of the clip and flashlight combo. Note also the switch boot will be black rubber since it will better match with whatever color tritium insert you choose. Also note that I photoshoped one of the slots closed to give you an idea what the final production flashlight will look like. The tester samples will still have the 2 slots seen in the original design.


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## KuanR (Sep 6, 2015)

Since there are 2 clips I would like to buy one for my review sample! I like polished and shiny things


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## nfetterly (Sep 6, 2015)

KuanR said:


> Since there is 2 clips I would like to buy one for my review sample! I like polished and shiny things



Backup - although chances of that are slim to none I realize.

The polished one does look fantastic.


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## onthebeam (Sep 6, 2015)

Don't want to throw cold water on such an awesome project, yet...

When I wrote earlier that the torch design is worthy of the Museum of Modern Art, I truly meant it.

The clip design doesn't seem to match the lines, curves and overall stunning aesthetics of the torch. Glad it's optional. I've been associated with some world class industrial designers over the years and a good friend pioneered the design and tech of what is now Fitbit. You can win industrial design awards with this beauty, especially with form and function so amazingly woven.

Thus, although I understand you need to wrap, hope you'll still take a hard look at the current clip and look for a way for it to not overwhelm the light. Your earlier designs with a lighter touch nailed it! This one, although practical, looks like another company's clip on your masterpiece. People aren't typically going to buy a torch like this as a typical edc, but instead a collectable yet functional work of art.

Hard to read this, I realize, especially with so much time, love and care invested. You don't seem to be the type to settle until true excellence is in hand.

Happy to chat or consult offline if of any help. I'm in Hong Kong next month and China annually.

Cheers!


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## mckeand13 (Sep 6, 2015)

I would suggest having the clips finished by vibratory deburring. It leaves a great finish with no effort, and shouldn't cost anything. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5BwhOKVd6Q


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## monanza (Sep 6, 2015)

Maybe a 'Parker' style design (wider base, thinner neck, in-between head) where the base (attachment point) can taper radially to better match the circular body.

EDIT: Expensive to manufacture?


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## gunga (Sep 6, 2015)

I'm cool with mill finish. I can always Polish if wanted. How is the clip secured in the slot? I've got about half a dozen good clip types to Compare this with. Looking forward to it.


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## rickyro (Sep 7, 2015)

onthebeam said:


> Don't want to throw cold water on such an awesome project, yet...
> 
> When I wrote earlier that the torch design is worthy of the Museum of Modern Art, I truly meant it.
> 
> ...



I agree with you. From the latest photos with that new clip installed, the flashlight looks a little bit not so harmonized in design.


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## stephenk (Sep 7, 2015)

I don't think there will be a consensus of opinion on the clip design (the world would be boring if we all agreed). 

Questions need to be asked as to what percentage of kickstarter funders will be 1) flashaholics, 2) purchasing for looks alone, 3) purchasing for other design reasons (e.g. high CRI warm LED), 4) require a functional clip. The answers should help decide what is required design wise. 

Anyway, my 2 cents worth is that the clip looks great, but maybe the screws need to be a bit more attractive and flush with clip.


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## rickyro (Sep 7, 2015)

stephenk said:


> I don't think there will be a consensus of opinion on the clip design (the world would be boring if we all agreed).
> 
> Questions need to be asked as to what percentage of kickstarter funders will be 1) flashaholics, 2) purchasing for looks alone, 3) purchasing for other design reasons (e.g. high CRI warm LED), 4) require a functional clip. The answers should help decide what is required design wise.
> 
> Anyway, my 2 cents worth is that the clip looks great, but maybe the screws need to be a bit more attractive and flush with clip.



Yeah, the screws will be another bothersome detail for this new design. How to make sure it is flushed is also a very hard to control process.


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## gunga (Sep 7, 2015)

The clip is a bit bulky looking. If the bolts are not silver and flush it will look terrible.


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## Harold_B (Sep 7, 2015)

First off I want to mention that when the sample for testing is ready to ship be sure to send a PM to flag me. That way I can be certain to get you my business address promptly. 

Second I can't help but notice how much of this thread is devoted to the aesthetics of the flashlight with operation modes second and beam characteristics a very distant third. Not trying to draw any conclusions or make any assumptions just making an observation. I happen to find the discussion interesting.


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## gunga (Sep 7, 2015)

You are right. I'm also basing this on a few pix. I'll need to see everything in person and see how it all performs. Let's deal with more important stuff. Any updates on the circuit?


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## jashhash (Sep 8, 2015)

Hi folks. I had a long meeting with Mr. Manker yesterday. At the conclusion of the meeting he took the head portion of the flashlight with him so he can install the driver. I had hoped to have the working flashlight today... but unfortunately that still isn't the case. I should have a working prototype in my hands in 1-2 days (sorry for the delay it's killing me too). I promise you the conversation will be more about performance when the driver is finally installed. 

As far as the clip is concerned I know there are some disagreements on the design, but personally I quite like this clip. I found some temporary hardware and bolted the clip to the body tube as you can see here, these bolts will be given out with the clip samples. Note however that the switch needs to be removed in order to fit the nuts on the back side of the clip. The final version of the flashlight will have two tapped holes in the tail fin and use the socket cap screws shown in the photo below. This is finally a clip that I'm proud of and is far superior to any stamped or wire form clip that I've ever experienced. The mounting holes for the clip are countersunk so the cap screws sit right flush with the face of the clip as you can see in the below photo. As far as polishing goes, all the clips will be polished since it's such a small difference in price. 




Installed with temporary hardware




Clipped to pocket (with temporary hardware)





The cap screws seated in the mounting holes. The counter sunk holes are just 0.2mm larger in diameter than the screw heads.





The cap screws sit flush with the surface of the clip as you can see here




Here is the metric cap screw being used for the clip


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## KuanR (Sep 8, 2015)

Great update as usual. I like the clip design and after experiencing Jeff Hanko's machined clip on my LF2XT, I have to say it feels a lot nicer than any stamped clip I have used.


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## gunga (Sep 8, 2015)

Great stuff. I look forward to updates on a working prototype. The clip is nice looking, just a tad large, but again, things are often different in person. Are you able to get hex cap screws for the temp hardware instead of philips or is it a supply issue? I will end up filing the bolt ends as the protruding ends bug me to no end.




Edit: M2 screws are really small. This clip will likely be pretty compact in reality.


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## sandalian (Sep 8, 2015)

That's a nice clip design and I think you should sell the clip separately for other flashlight if possible.


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## Jannojj (Sep 8, 2015)

Great looking clip , reminds me of custom knives,


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## darrielc (Sep 12, 2015)

Did you start the KickStarter?


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## gunga (Sep 12, 2015)

No working prototype yet. So no.


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## jashhash (Sep 13, 2015)

Hi Everybody. Unfortunately this isn't the update that you've all been looking for. The good news is the driver board is finished and it's completely constant current in all 4 settings. The bad news is the tail cap spring and switch has too much resistance and thus can't handle the amperage load. My buddy Mr. Manker is helping me source a higher quality tail switch along with a better spring. These bugs shouldn't take too long to work out and I should have a working prototype by Monday or Tuesday this week. I will keep you all updated once the bugs are worked out.


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## SA Condor (Sep 13, 2015)

Yay for CC! That is good news indeed!


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## KuanR (Sep 13, 2015)

That's a great update, considering the driver exceeded your expectations and upgrades are needed to match it


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## mckeand13 (Sep 13, 2015)

Take a look at Smalley Wave Springs

http://www.smalley.com/about-smalley-wave-springs

They are really nice.


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## Coltrane (Sep 13, 2015)

Really impressed with the light so far. Contrary to many I like the clip a lot. It gives the light a unique character. And a feeling of quality unlike all the previous clips. Can't wait for the campaign to start!


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## Megatrowned (Sep 13, 2015)

mckeand13 said:


> Take a look at Smalley Wave Springs
> 
> http://www.smalley.com/about-smalley-wave-springs
> 
> They are really nice.



Those are nice! If I remember correctly, Jason from Promethius Lights, was considering "upgrading" McClicky switches for his lights using springs like these. They have considerably less resistance that regular springs because there are more points of electrical contact.


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## rjking (Sep 13, 2015)

Hopefully, a copper version wouldn't be too far off.


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## gunga (Sep 13, 2015)

Geez. Not even released yet and people are asking for new materials.


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## Espionage Studio (Sep 13, 2015)

Typical flashaholics haha


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## jashhash (Sep 14, 2015)

Hi everyone.
Heh heh... Yea I know copper is a really popular option these days even despite the patina... Or is the patina all the rage these days. Anyways I expect a copper version will be possible if there is enough sales volume. The copper and aluminum versions will need to be slightly wider in diameter than the S/S or Ti versions though because they are softer materials the small screws that hold the clip on will need more threads to hold it in place properly. Also interesting concept on the wave spring. I will look around here to see if I can find someone who can make wave springs. I can't promise that the firefly will have wave springs by the time this campaign is ready but I will consider it as a future upgrade. I will show the spring idea to Mr. Manker and we can run some tests to see what performance improvements a wave spring will make vs a tapered coil spring.


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## rickyro (Sep 14, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hi everyone.
> Heh heh... Yea I know copper is a really popular option these days even despite the patina... Or is the patina all the rage these days. Anyways I expect a copper version will be possible if there is enough sales volume. The copper and aluminum versions will need to be slightly wider in diameter than the S/S or Ti versions though because they are softer materials the small screws that hold the clip on will need more threads to hold it in place properly. Also interesting concept on the wave spring. I will look around here to see if I can find someone who can make wave springs. I can't promise that the firefly will have wave springs by the time this campaign is ready but I will consider it as a future upgrade. I will show the spring idea to Mr. Manker and we can run some tests to see what performance improvements a wave spring will make vs a tapered coil spring.




Hi, just saw the new model of Manker MK-T01 AA. I think that one is quite weird with design choices. That design seems better suited for 18650 or 2AA formats. The overly designed knurling, heat sink, and head look so over-sized in an AA format light.

But the quality looks quite high.

The owner Henry (correct?) seems quite happy with your cooperation.


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## radiopej (Sep 14, 2015)

Wow. This light looks amazing.


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## radiopej (Sep 14, 2015)

I can't wait to see the reviews and action shots. I'd be happy to review and send it back if you like (and everybody already selected cancels), though I think something this custom deserves a selfbuilt review.


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## jashhash (Sep 14, 2015)

Hey Ricky,
Yes your right Henry is co owner of Manker along with his industrial designer friend Tan. I just refer to him here as Mr. Manker so CPF people know the correlation. I actually have one MK-T01 flashlight on me right now that he gave me. I agree the head of the flashlight is huge compared to the body, but that sort of goes with his idea for this build. With a large/deep reflector combined with a CREE XP-L high intensity LED Manker's MK-T01 was designed to be a pocket spotlight. It's really bright on the turbo setting and can throw a considerable distance. Unlike a lot of crappy flashlights you find here in China (there are thousands upon thousands of crap flashlights here) he pays a lot of attention to the electronics inside, his tail cap spring for example is 24K gold plated and is a double spring within a spring design in order to reduce resistance. Apparently it's critically important to keep resistance low in order to keep the spring from melting on a high amp draw turbo.


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## Jannojj (Sep 14, 2015)

Hi , this is a great looking flashlight & pocket clip . I like the polished look , but will it be slippery in your hand ?


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## jashhash (Sep 14, 2015)

Actually the machined knurling is quite grippy Jannojj.


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## rickyro (Sep 14, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hey Ricky,
> Yes your right Henry is co owner of Manker along with his industrial designer friend Tan. I just refer to him here as Mr. Manker so CPF people know the correlation. I actually have one MK-T01 flashlight on me right now that he gave me. I agree the head of the flashlight is huge compared to the body, but that sort of goes with his idea for this build. With a large/deep reflector combined with a CREE XP-L high intensity LED Manker's MK-T01 was designed to be a pocket spotlight. It's really bright on the turbo setting and can throw a considerable distance. Unlike a lot of crappy flashlights you find here in China (there are thousands upon thousands of crap flashlights here) he pays a lot of attention to the electronics inside, his tail cap spring for example is 24K gold plated and is a double spring within a spring design in order to reduce resistance. Apparently it's critically important to keep resistance low in order to keep the spring from melting on a high amp draw turbo.
> 
> 
> .


Thanks for the detailed reply. Your posts are always being very informative

I much preferred your design for an AA flashlight for the following reasons:
1. elegant design
2. good LED, high CRI
3. firm clip
4. simple UI and most useful brightness levels

If Manker is coming out with a 2AA/18650 MK-T01, I might be more interested.


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## jashhash (Sep 14, 2015)

Noted Ricky. The Chinese flashlight market and western market have a few differences in their design preferences. If this project is successful the Manker team and I will be collaborating more together on future projects along with input from the CPF community.


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## campingnut (Sep 15, 2015)

rjking said:


> Hopefully, a copper version wouldn't be too far off.



+1


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## Tixx (Sep 15, 2015)

rjking said:


> Hopefully, a copper version wouldn't be too far off.


+2


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## RUSH FAN (Sep 15, 2015)

Jashhash-

Good luck on your endeavor here! I would be interested in this kickstarter project.

I saw your previous kickstarter, the automatic portable motorized pencil eraser?

It looks like you took what would have been the casing of that automatic motorized eraser, and used it for your new flashlight.

It had the same overall shape.

Cheers,
Rush


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## jashhash (Sep 15, 2015)

Hi Rush,
Actually the casing of this firefly flashlight was not taken from the previous electric eraser project. However it's interesting that you should note the similarities since the electric eraser used another AA size flashlight housing. Unfortunately the electric eraser project never met it's funding goal.... And to be honest the profit margin on that project is really bad. As it turns out the tiny brushless motor and motor control circuit is incredibly expensive.


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## RUSH FAN (Sep 16, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hi Rush,
> Actually the casing of this firefly flashlight was not taken from the previous electric eraser project. However it's interesting that you should note the similarities since the electric eraser used another AA size flashlight housing. Unfortunately the electric eraser project never met it's funding goal.... And to be honest the profit margin on that project is really bad. As it turns out the tiny brushless motor and motor control circuit is incredibly expensive.



Yes, the electric eraser reminded me of the now discontinued Jetbeam e3s stainless steel flashlight


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## jashhash (Sep 17, 2015)

Hi folks,
I have the completed flashlight now and everything is working properly except for one small detail. As the circuit is written right now the operation modes are: low > Med > turbo > firefly . I know this isn't what was originally planned, and it is unfortunate that this slight detail was overlooked. Because of this, those of you who signed up to be reviewers will receive the prototype version, however if the Kickstarter campaign is successful I will send the reviewers the final completed version with the correct mode spacing and a clip free of charge. At this point I don't want to wait any longer developing the firefly since if I'm up against another deadline here in China. Starting next week is the beginning of China's mid autumn festival in which my Wife and I will be visiting her parents for 2 weeks. So basically I need to get these 5 samples out to you next week or the project will be delayed another 3 weeks. My plan now is to have all the flashlights completed and in the mail to you reviewers by 9/23/15. That way you all have 1-2 weeks to review the firefly flashlight before the Kickstarter campaign finally launches. I will follow up with you all in more detail in a couple days from now to confirm your order, what reviewers will get clips, and whether or not you want tritium inserts in the prototype version of this flashlight.


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## snowlover91 (Sep 17, 2015)

Jash did you fill all the reviewer spots or have any left? Good luck getting this off the ground I love the design of this light and the clip looks really nice. Thanks for the updates and hard work!


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## gunga (Sep 17, 2015)

One thing I need to clarify. If I'm paying full price for a review sample, I expect it to have the mode sequence originally promised, regardless of what happens in the kickstarter. I would never buy a light with that mode sequence. I don't mind reviewing the light with the circuit as is, but I expect to end up with that revised circuit. Also, while I'm a modder, not all the reviewers may be comfortable swapping the circuit out. (I guess you are sending the whole light?). 

While I realize you are in a rush, this solution needs to be further clarified.

Edit : you are basically asking reviewers to buy the unfinished product.


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## onthebeam (Sep 17, 2015)

Duplicate post.


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## onthebeam (Sep 17, 2015)

Why would a three week delay be important? That's small in the big picture of creating a premium torch. 

You want reviewers to get the most evolved product to share true insights and feedback, which will help others to best consider whether to lay out big bucks to decide whether to purchase.)

With reviewers you get one chance to make a great impression.

(My wife is also Chinese, so I understand the importance of the mid autumn festival. I'm coming over just after.)


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## nfetterly (Sep 18, 2015)

I am not a huge firefly person so low/medium/turbo/firefly is okay with me, but if I was a firefly person it would be an issue - it really negates having it.

Tritium - yes for sure, ice blue/green alternating would be fantastic - or just ice blue, or just green.

Clip would be great, but if I get a clip at a later date that works as well...

Looking forward to review sample..

Neale


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## jashhash (Sep 18, 2015)

Hi Folks,
After hearing feedback from Gunga and Onthebeam I've decided to delay the samples till the settings are in correct order.  As eager as I am to get this project launched, I realize it's not yet the right time. I hope to have these adjustments made soon, however its likely to delay the Kickstarter launch date by 3 weeks since I will be going to visit my wife's parents hometown for mid autumn festival.


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## gunga (Sep 18, 2015)

Awesome! Yes, need to get it right. I've seen too many rushed products. Not a good thing.


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## RWT1405 (Sep 18, 2015)

I agree, get it right the first time! Good luck with it!


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## KuanR (Sep 18, 2015)

Get it right the first time is definitely the way to go. We are all enthusiasts and don't mind waiting for the product to be the best it could be before getting our hands on it 

If you think about it, if the specs don't match for the review samples it kind of defeats the purpose


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## stephenk (Sep 19, 2015)

Agree, best to get it right! Can I ask that based on the revised timelines, when will the firefly be likely to be shipping?


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## phosphor22 (Sep 19, 2015)

I love AAA and AA lights with neutral / high CRI and -- and especially those with a fine sub-lumen moonlight mode - .5 or less. This light looks beautiful and sounds great - and will definitely be in when the campaign begins. Also like no strobe, flash modes. Does it still have the GITD button cover?


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## Newguy2012 (Sep 20, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hi Folks,
> After hearing feedback from Gunga and Onthebeam I've decided to delay the samples till the settings are in correct order. As eager as I am to get this project launched, I realize it's not yet the right time. I hope to have these adjustments made soon, however its likely to delay the Kickstarter launch date by 3 weeks since I will be going to visit my wife's parents hometown for mid autumn festival.


Don't rush things. It best to get it right the first time. I think people here can live with the delay.


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## Amelia (Sep 20, 2015)

I also agree. Take the time to get the mode sequence right... I'm still onboard for a review sample if this is done with the modes right.
Thanks!


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## jashhash (Sep 21, 2015)

Hi Folks,
Thanks for your feedback. The circuit is being re-worked right now, and should take another week or so. Unfortunately I will be back at my Wife's home village at that time and internet is not so great there. In addition I won't be able to do much with this project till I get back home so there won't be a lot of meaningful updates. Right now I'm working on fulfilling the stacks magnet project which was a success as well as working on the video and graphic layout for this flashlight project. I will keep you all posted with updates.


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## forstersun (Sep 24, 2015)

rickyro said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply. Your posts are always being very informative
> 
> I much preferred your design for an AA flashlight for the following reasons:
> 1. elegant design
> ...





I fully agree with you ...


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## Jannojj (Sep 24, 2015)

I keep going back to the pictures of the flashlight with the yellow trits and think this is great looking!


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## rjking (Sep 28, 2015)




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## jashhash (Oct 1, 2015)

Hi everybody,
I have now in my hands a complete prototype with the driver modified. Though I don't have an integrating sphere I'm using a light meter to approximate the lumen value. From my testing there will be different mode spacings depending on what battery type is being used:

When using a LiIon cell the mode spacing is:
0.8lm > 31lm > 99lm > 456lm

When using an alkaline or NiMh cell the mode spacing is:
1.8lm > 19lm > 76lm > 276lm

There is an EMS shipping company in the small town where I'm currently located and I hope they offer international shipping. If so I would like to send out this first sample tomorrow. Henry (Mr. Manker) will be putting together the other drivers and sending them to me after the mid autumn festival then I can send out the rest of the samples at that time. Also I have a dummy light with the titanium clip attached that I would like to send out as well to give you an impression of what the clip will be like. I was hoping Gunga could be the first reviewer since he's the clip guru and has been so helpful in the development process. I know Nfetterly would like half green and ice blue alternating trits in his light. Would you also like this treatment in your light Gunga? The tritium colors I currently have are green, Ice blue, Yellow, and Orange (I broke one of the red tubes accidentally).


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## Jannojj (Oct 1, 2015)

Hi, looking forward to seeing the flashlight,I wish I could have been one of the reviewers . I would like to have been on the start of this anyway good luck with the great looking flashlight [emoji106][emoji108][emoji111]


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## KuanR (Oct 1, 2015)

I would like all ice blue trits in my review sample. I could come see you in Shenzhen or Hong Kong to get it


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## gunga (Oct 1, 2015)

Very exciting! Can I go with all ice blue trits please.


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## SA Condor (Oct 1, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hi everybody,
> I have now in my hands a complete prototype with the driver modified. Though I don't have an integrating sphere I'm using a light meter to approximate the lumen value. From my testing there will be different mode spacings depending on what battery type is being used:
> 
> When using a LiIon cell the mode spacing is:
> ...



Great news!! I'm looking forward to the input from your reviewers. It's been fun to watch your dream come into form. I forget, will there eventually be a choice of LEDs? What temperature will the review samples have?


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## jashhash (Oct 1, 2015)

Hi everyone,

I had to desolder the LED this morning in order to put in the 8 ice blue tritium vials. When I re-soldered it and installed the reflector/bezel the solder bumps up too much and is short circuiting against the aluminum reflector. The light turns on and although the driver is not damaged it messes up the mode spacing. Unfortunately I put loctite on the threads when I assembled the head and this one might be a goner :-( . As of now I'm soaking the head assembly in nailpolish remover to hopefully dissolve the loctite. I can fix it but only by removing the bezel. Will keep you posted. Sorry about the bad news.


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## gunga (Oct 1, 2015)

Ugh. No loctite. Please.


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## Harold_B (Oct 1, 2015)

Which Loctite product? The release chemical can vary for different colors. Some of the Reds and Greens are considered permanent depending on thread size and clearance. My first thought is to check on the Loctite website and then if the polish remover doesn't do it you might try straight acetone (the solvent in nail polish remover). It will be a higher concentration. If that doesn't do it try alcohol but avoid rubbing alcohol if possible (like the nail polish remover there's dye and perfume). If the solvents let you down the last resort is heat. Discoloration and burning components will be the risk. Good luck!


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## Jannojj (Oct 2, 2015)

The flashlights pricing looks good and good luck with your flashlight, looks great too.[emoji108][emoji106][emoji6][emoji15][emoji736]


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## Wolfy1776 (Oct 2, 2015)

Wow this is a gorgeous light!! The 4 light levels are perfect brighter than a Surefire Titanium B with more versatility. And I love the tritium vials.

Do you have a price post kickstarter?


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## KuanR (Oct 2, 2015)

gunga said:


> Ugh. No loctite. Please.



Yes...no loctite please


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## jashhash (Oct 2, 2015)

Well I've been making a mess of things trying to get it open but nothing seems to work. I don't have the best tools at my disposal right now since I'm away from home I will keep trying but I have my doubts. Most likely this repair will have to wait till I get back home. As for no loctite I will honor your request for no loctite for these samples.

As far as post Kickstarter pricing, I'm not sure yet. I sort of need to see how things go with the kickstarter project first.


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## jdboy (Oct 2, 2015)

Subscribing, very interesting light and I look forward to seeing it released. I've read most the thread but not all of it so I apologize if I've missed the information that I'm about to ask. Why isn't the clip in the original post being used? I think it fits the design of the light better than the milled clip.

*EDIT: Found the answer in post #190*


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## stephenk (Oct 2, 2015)

jashhash said:


> When using a LiIon cell the mode spacing is:
> 0.8lm > 31lm > 99lm > 456lm
> 
> When using an alkaline or NiMh cell the mode spacing is:
> 1.8lm > 19lm > 76lm > 276lm


Nice even mode spacing. I'm looking forward to warm white goodness from this light!

Can I ask why the lowest mode is brighter with NiMH than LiIon? Not a problem, just out of interest.


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## more_vampires (Oct 2, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I had to desolder the LED this morning in order to put in the 8 ice blue tritium vials. When I re-soldered it and installed the reflector/bezel the solder bumps up too much and is short circuiting against the aluminum reflector. The light turns on and although the driver is not damaged it messes up the mode spacing. Unfortunately I put loctite on the threads when I assembled the head and this one might be a goner :-( . As of now I'm soaking the head assembly in nailpolish remover to hopefully dissolve the loctite. I can fix it but only by removing the bezel. Will keep you posted. Sorry about the bad news.


Get a hot air gun. Get it hot hot hot. Strap wrench.


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## Wolfy1776 (Oct 2, 2015)

Have you made a decision on the package/charger? I think that's a great idea.


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## monanza (Oct 3, 2015)

Suggestion: please update the first post with the latest level info, clip design(s), and so on.


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## stephenk (Oct 3, 2015)

monanza said:


> Suggestion: please update the first post with the latest level info, clip design(s), and so on.


+1 An updated first page would make it easier to attract new readers to the eventual kickstarter campaign.


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## jashhash (Oct 3, 2015)

Yes I most certainly will update the front page with the revised content when I get back home to Shenzhen. For the next week my Wife and I are at her her home town of Ankang in which my internet connection is absolutely terrible. I can post text responses, but uploading gifs, and photos to the web is not possible with my current internet connection. Actually all of China has terribly glitchy telecommunications compared to what I'm used to in California. China has this great firewall of censorship which makes accessing American websites difficult or impossible. I need to use a virtual private network to get around the firewall which makes the internet manageable but still slow. It's funny just crossing the border into Hong Kong and suddenly the internet is lightning speed and works perfectly. So far my attempts at taking off the bezel of my one sample haven't worked and I ended up damaging the driver circuit in the process :-(. I will need to get back home where I have access to a heat gun and wait for the rest of the drivers to arrive.


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## gunga (Oct 3, 2015)

Please don't send me a mangled light.


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## Harold_B (Oct 3, 2015)

Truly a bummer about the damaged prototype but that's the point of a proto isn't it? As far as what to do with the limited parts you have if you want to use the (aesthetically) damaged parts for integrated sphere testing and beam characterization then feel free to use them on the sample you send to me. As long as the optical path is undamaged then the testing should be fine. Your call since I'm just collecting data not providing a review.


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## jashhash (Oct 5, 2015)

So far the only part that was damaged is the driver circuit. I have a few extra Stainless Steel flashlights and I will assure you there is no way I would send out a mangled light to anyone.


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## rickyro (Oct 6, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Yes I most certainly will update the front page with the revised content when I get back home to Shenzhen. For the next week my Wife and I are at her her home town of Ankang in which my internet connection is absolutely terrible. I can post text responses, but uploading gifs, and photos to the web is not possible with my current internet connection. Actually all of China has terribly glitchy telecommunications compared to what I'm used to in California. China has this great firewall of censorship which makes accessing American websites difficult or impossible. I need to use a virtual private network to get around the firewall which makes the internet manageable but still slow. It's funny just crossing the border into Hong Kong and suddenly the internet is lightning speed and works perfectly. So far my attempts at taking off the bezel of my one sample haven't worked and I ended up damaging the driver circuit in the process :-(. I will need to get back home where I have access to a heat gun and wait for the rest of the drivers to arrive.




Ankang? Is it located in Shaanxi Province?

The Internet speed and the mobile Internet speed in China are actually quite good, but surely only with access to Chinese mainland websites Access to outside websites are normally strictly censored. 

I am in Europe now. Access to Chinese websites also has some problems.


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## Mr Floppy (Oct 6, 2015)

rickyro said:


> The Internet speed and the mobile Internet speed in China
> 
> I am in Europe now. Access to Chinese websites also has some problems.



The great firewall of China. Deep packet inspection both ways.


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## jashhash (Oct 8, 2015)

Yes access to websites within China is usually quite fast, but access to any international website is awfully slow and glitchy. You wouldn't believe how the glitchiness can sometimes make websites load in strange and insane ways. I'm pretty sure it's the great firewall since anywhere else in the world international websites are still quite speedy. I have to buy a 150mbps internet plan at home just to make accessing international websites bearable. Unfortunately almost nobody else here will pay for fast internet since they don't need it. When I travel within China my internet access is just awful. I will be back home in 2 days though so I will update y'all at that time.


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## mckeand13 (Oct 8, 2015)

jashhash,

I'm just going to offer my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

It would be best if you update the thread only with the positive milestones that are happening in your project. You've got a lot of posts talking about desoldering, prying, trying to get things apart, etc. It's starting to sound like a real hack job. That's fine if all of that stuff is going on in the background but we don't need to know about it. It detracts from the excitement surrounding the great flashlight you have designed.

Imagine a person orders a new car at a dealership. They wait months and it finally arrives. Then they have to wait for delivery because it got a big scratch while on the transport so they're taking care of that in the body shop. Then, they find out the engine has a loud knock, so they are swapping in new rod bearings per a service bulletin. After that's done, the runner backs it into another car while pulling it out the stall. Do you think the new owner is really excited about getting their new car at this point?

See where I'm going with this? Just postpone the delivery date to something acheivable and deliver. No need for every detail.

I will also say you've done a great job on designing the light. I'll be buying one on Kickstarter whenever that happens.

Thanks.


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## Prepped (Oct 8, 2015)

mckeand13 said:


> jashhash,
> 
> I'm just going to offer my opinion so take it for what it's worth.
> 
> ...



Too each their own. I've enjoyed reading the quirks and hiccups along the way. Best of luck, I hope this becomes a reality for you.


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## Amelia (Oct 9, 2015)

Prepped said:


> Too each their own. I've enjoyed reading the quirks and hiccups along the way. Best of luck, I hope this becomes a reality for you.



I second this. I've really enjoyed reading the progress reports and stumbling blocks as well as successes!


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## gunga (Oct 9, 2015)

Yep. It can be good to know. Makes the journey more interesting.


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## rickyro (Oct 9, 2015)

Prepped said:


> Too each their own. I've enjoyed reading the quirks and hiccups along the way. Best of luck, I hope this becomes a reality for you.



Yeah, that is transparency. And I enjoy reading all the progress. Feeling more involved.


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## stephenk (Oct 9, 2015)

rickyro said:


> Yeah, that is transparency. And I enjoy reading all the progress. Feeling more involved.


+1 
Honesty and transparency is a good trait!


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## Megatrowned (Oct 9, 2015)

I have read a few threads that would almost completely disappear if it weren't for discussing the problems and challenges along the way. These hav been some of the most entertaining and interesting threads I have read  Just my 2cents, but that's why I love CPF. All the detail and background you don't get it from just buying a product off a website. 
Regarding this flashlight, I can't wait to see it come to production!


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## campingnut (Oct 11, 2015)

stephenk said:


> +1
> Honesty and transparency is a good trait!



I love hearing about the journey...the honesty and transparency just make me want to buy one even more. Keep up the great work.


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## jashhash (Oct 11, 2015)

I would like to keep you all informed with the progress of this project including the difficulties, that way you all know I haven't forgotten and abandoned this project, also you know when there are any complications that occur. I also appreciate the input of the community here for their advice since there is no better way in developing a product these days than to be in constant communication with a group of expert customers. I think of CPF as a massive think-tank upon which the entire future of the flashlight market is directed. In 2004 I joined this community and at that time there were just a few flashlight companies which had already established an excellent reputation namely Surefire, Pelican, and Maglite (among others). However since then these companies have been far surpassed by new flashlight companies such as Fenix who founded their businesses through a close relationship with the CPF community. It's because Fenix was honest and transparent with the CPF community that they earned respect here and built a strong reputation here. My goal is to follow this example in developing the Firefly and perhaps other flashlights.


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## Wolfy1776 (Oct 12, 2015)

CPF is a great resource for a flashlight community. We are a educated community dedicated to the development of a better flashlight. I consider CPF the perfect focus group. Big name companion pay BIG bucks for this type of feedback.

I also look forward to your progress reports I feel more emotionally connected to a product because of your stories and challenges.


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## jashhash (Oct 12, 2015)

The first post has been updated now with more current information.

FYI I've decided to remove a few optional ideas which were additionally discussed here in this thread. First of all I'm deciding not to make the LiIon charging case as part of the packaging. I feel like building a charger exposes me to a lot of liability if anything were to go wrong, also most people who own Lithium Ion batteries already have a charger. Secondly I'm removing the titanium nitride coating option since this will add too much complexity to the project at this point. Copper and fancy coatings may be offered later on if this flashlight meets my funding goal on kickstarter.


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## akhyar (Oct 12, 2015)

Excellent update on the 1st page.


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## KuanR (Oct 12, 2015)

Superb update and great details.

When the production run comes I'll go for the titanium with tritium and clip.

In the mean time the ss version will be put through its paces and I'll try everything to find weaknesses and flaws!


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## jdboy (Oct 12, 2015)

Excellent job on the update and I'm looking forward to a Ti, Trit, and Clip version of this!!

EDIT: The black aluminum version with trits and a clip is really looking nice as well though!!


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## Overclocker (Oct 12, 2015)

it needs a better user-interface. the quark or eagtac D25 heat-tight head-loose is good, and doesn't require additional side buttons


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## snowlover91 (Oct 12, 2015)

I like the UI seems simple and easy enough. Is there memory to this or will it always start back at the lowest mode?


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## jashhash (Oct 13, 2015)

The UI is 4 modes starting in the lowest brightness going up to the highest. There is no memory so it will always default to the firefly mode.


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## jashhash (Oct 13, 2015)

Alright folks,

I received a new LED driver today and put together another flashlight assembly. I discovered the source of the short now, it wasn't the solder pads like I had once thought, actually the short is caused by the reflector back making contact with the 4 front corners of the XM-L2 LED, apparently the front corners of this LED are electrically active. To resolve this I used tape to electrically isolate the reflector. I have 3 more LED drivers which will be hopefully coming in the mail tomorrow. Henry at Manker lights made a slight tweak to this driver again to get the firefly mode even lower, I would say the light output now on firefly mode is between .3lm to .5lm (with all battery types). I would like to send out this first sample to Gunga tomorrow for review. Here is a photo of what Gunga's samples look like, note that the switch boot is still glow-in-the-dark green though I will be having a batch of black ones made for the kickstarter campaign, so this is a slight difference between the prototype and final product. Gunga will also receive a dummy light with a titanium clip bolted on so he can review the clip for the CPF community as well.


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## Megatrowned (Oct 13, 2015)

Oooo! That looks real nice! :twothumbs Nice pic with the tritium as well! I can't wait to hear some feedback about them from Gunga and the other testers.


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## easilyled (Oct 13, 2015)

Watching this with great interest. Very nice looking light which appears to be well thought out. I'm awaiting the reviews eagerly. :thumbsup:


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## Roger Sully (Oct 13, 2015)

OK Now i'm officially excited! Those are some nice lights and the price points seem ridiculously reasonable....to a flashaholic anyway..


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## SVT-ROY (Oct 13, 2015)

I have been following this light along, and although I'm a TAC guy(high mode first). I'm falling in love with this beautiful light. Not a fan of how the clip looks, but not one product on the planet makes every consumer happy. Although I'm sure it functions well, this is a light for looks.
I just just re read the first posting and it states "reverse clicky". Please tell me this is a forward clicky and I'm just fried and need sleep.


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## gunga (Oct 13, 2015)

I look forward to checking this light out!


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## reppans (Oct 13, 2015)

Overclocker said:


> it needs a better user-interface. the quark or eagtac D25 heat-tight head-loose is good, and doesn't require additional side buttons



Just don't come back into the US and SF won't be able to touch you


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## nfetterly (Oct 14, 2015)

Looking forward to my review sample as well.


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## rickyro (Oct 14, 2015)

I am really interested with the option of titanium without tritium with clip. How to be listed/qualified in that 50 pcs ($135) only?


I don't know sure about it. But the GITD green rubber I saw before looked a bit cheap to me compared to the normal black ones. And I like the rubber of McClick very most.


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## gunga (Oct 14, 2015)

This looks like a standard 14mm boot. It should be easy to change if you want another colour.


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## Stony (Oct 14, 2015)

Looks great. Definitely wanting to pick a couple up!


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## stephenk (Oct 15, 2015)

The updated first page information and photos are great. Looking forward to this. Will deliveries be ready by Xmas?


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## Tixx (Oct 15, 2015)

Very nice! Just saw the first page as well.


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## Wolfy1776 (Oct 15, 2015)

400+ lumens!!!! WOW!!!!! Is that for the full 20 minutes or does the light output step down from heat or a timer?

Where can I send my money?


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## Jannojj (Oct 16, 2015)

I would take one like the blue trit's in it and the Ti clip too , can wait for this one !


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## SA Condor (Oct 16, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Alright folks,
> 
> I received a new LED driver today and put together another flashlight assembly. I discovered the source of the short now, it wasn't the solder pads like I had once thought, actually the short is caused by the reflector back making contact with the 4 front corners of the XM-L2 LED, apparently the front corners of this LED are electrically active. To resolve this I used tape to electrically isolate the reflector. I have 3 more LED drivers which will be hopefully coming in the mail tomorrow. Henry at Manker lights made a slight tweak to this driver again to get the firefly mode even lower, I would say the light output now on firefly mode is between .3lm to .5lm (with all battery types). I would like to send out this first sample to Gunga tomorrow for review. Here is a photo of what Gunga's samples look like, note that the switch boot is still glow-in-the-dark green though I will be having a batch of black ones made for the kickstarter campaign, so this is a slight difference between the prototype and final product. Gunga will also receive a dummy light with a titanium clip bolted on so he can review the clip for the CPF community as well.



Looking really good! Now I'm looking forward to the reviews to see how it performs in real life. 

When do you think you'll launch on Kickstarter? Are you considering doing any kind of CPF Early bird special for those of us that have been following along since the beginning?!


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## jashhash (Oct 17, 2015)

Hi Everyone, I have some good news and some bad news,

Bad news
I just had a chat with Henry from Manker and it seems making the sample LED drivers by hand is extremely time consuming. I just happened to ask Henry how long it takes to make a driver and his reply was that it takes 4 hours to make and program each driver sample. The driver board is really packed with chips and is a double decker board design so I can see how it might be so time consuming to hand solder each one.  Anyways I felt bad about taking up all his time (he does have a business to run after all) making so many samples so I told him to just make 3 review samples. What this means is I can't accommodate all my reviewers here with a sneak peak sample. 1 sample has already been sent to Gunga and he should receive it in 4-5 days by DHL. That means I have 2 more samples that I can send out, one I would like to send to Harold_B since he has access to an integrating sphere, and the last one I will choose at random from my list of remaining reviewers. If the Kickstarter project looks like it's going to make the funding goal I will have Henry tool up the driver for production and have the remaining 3 review flashlights sent out mid-way through the campaign. 

The Good News:
I have the video and layout ready now and will be launching the Kickstarter campaign at 12:00pm (NY time) this coming Tuesday (10/20/15). The campaign will run for 40 days and hope to see reviews here on CPF before the campaign is over. Please note that I can cancel the campaign at any time if there are any major problems discovered during the reviews. Canceling a project is free of charge to me and I can re-launch again at a later time if necessary. Also the content of the Kickstarter campaign may change slightly depending on what is discovered in the reviews. If there is any conflicting data such as lumen output or runtime I will be using the data provided by Harold_B. There will be 80 early bird specials available at the launch of the project so sign up quickly to reserve your discount. Just because you pledge doesn't mean you are committed however, so if after the reviews are out you decide the Firefly doesn't meet your quality standards you have the option to cancel your pledge. You are able to cancel your pledge at any time up till the last minute of the campaign. I hope your all as excited as I am, I just can't wait to finally get this project up and running.


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## KuanR (Oct 17, 2015)

If I get chosen for the last review sample, I don't mind sending it to the next person after a short period. I'll put it through its paces in a short time, so more of us get a chance to give feedback


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## monanza (Oct 17, 2015)

Glad it is 12 PM and not 12 AM. 

I'll be there for my fix. Nice job and hope you hit your funding goals and add Ti PVD perks! That is a gazillion options for the campaign and I see why you had to knock off a few.


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## jashhash (Oct 18, 2015)

Here goes... I'm going to roll a dice right now to see who gets the review light. If the roll ends up 1-2 then Amellia gets it, 3-4 then Nfetterly, lastly 5-6 KuanR:

And the roll is ................................................. 2!. That means Amellia has first dibs at the light. So Amelia would you like your sample light with or without trits, I still have Green, Yellow, and Orange available. Also since KuanR you live so close, perhaps we can meet up so you can take a look at the firefly before I send it off to Amellia, what do you think?


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## KuanR (Oct 18, 2015)

That works, it would be easier to meet in Hong Kong if that works for you. Give me a date and I'll try to work around it.

I definitely want to see this in person loaded up with trits and play with the ui!


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## jashhash (Oct 20, 2015)

Hi KuanR,

I would like to meet with you soon but still haven't heard back from Amelia about what color trits he would like. I will just go ahead and install green trits in this one, hopefully he will be alright with this sample. My wife and I were actually thinking of going to Macao this Thursday or Friday since we've never been and were planning a visit soon. You live in Macao right, or would HK be more convenient? If HK is more convenient for you then Saturday would be the best time for me. 

Also I'm still waiting for Kickstarters approval for the launch so I may have to delay a day untill I get that approval. If the project doesn't launch Tuesday at 12:00pm NY time then it will launch on Wednesday 12:00pm NY time.


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## KuanR (Oct 20, 2015)

I live in Macau right now. If you come to Macau on Thursday or Friday it would be best. My sister's wedding is on Saturday so I won't be able to make it to Hong Kong till next weekend.

I don't want to hold up the light from being sent out so I too would like to see is as soon as possible and give my feedback. I'll bring along some IMR 14500 to really fire up this light:devil:


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## jdboy (Oct 20, 2015)

I've never taken part in a Kickstarter project and was wandering if they'll be a link in this thread before it's active or do I need to search for the product name?


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## jashhash (Oct 20, 2015)

I will be putting a link to the kickstarter page once it has launched. Here is a preview link so you can see what the whole campaign looks like before it officially launches: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2112614854/1491490907?token=061ad766


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## onthebeam (Oct 20, 2015)

Hong Kong! I'm here in Kowloon Tong at this very moment.


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## Wolfy1776 (Oct 20, 2015)

Will the posted price on lights be higher or lower price than the Kickstarter pricing?


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## jashhash (Oct 20, 2015)

Hey Onthebeam, how long are you staying in HK?

As far as pricing after the kickstarter campaign, It's hard to answer a question like that. If this light doesn't meet it's funding goal there will never be an after kickstarter sale. 

Alright folks, the approval process is finished this project goes live in 1/2 hour.


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## SA Condor (Oct 20, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hey Onthebeam, how long are you staying in HK?
> 
> As far as pricing after the kickstarter campaign, It's hard to answer a question like that. If this light doesn't meet it's funding goal there will never be an after kickstarter sale.
> 
> Alright folks, the approval process is finished this project goes live in 1/2 hour.



What is the early bird special pricing going to be?


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## jashhash (Oct 20, 2015)

Alright folks, the project just went live you can find it here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2112614854/firefly-flashlight

If you scroll down towards the bottom you can see all the early bird price tiers.


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## SA Condor (Oct 20, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Alright folks, the project just went live you can find it here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2112614854/firefly-flashlight



Man!! I was hoping for an aluminum with trits early bird special, kinda bummed!


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## nfetterly (Oct 20, 2015)

2nd one pledged..... (had to sign into kickstarter, 3rd time at password was the charm), 3 now, all Ti fully loaded...


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## SA Condor (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm not a huge fan of Titanium and was gunning for a fully loaded aluminum Early Bird. I've backed it, but at a plain Jane aluminum version. Might be tempted to bump up if a new Early Bird category is created


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## phosphor22 (Oct 20, 2015)

Congratulations on launching this project! I'm in with the Ti fully loaded, too - looking forward to this light -- many of my favorite features together in one AA package.


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## Wolfy1776 (Oct 20, 2015)

I think you will have no problem reaching your goal.


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## Wolfy1776 (Oct 20, 2015)

I have never participated in a Kickstart project. When do the funds get withdrawn from my account? If this doesn't reach its goal are the funds returned?


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## jashhash (Oct 20, 2015)

Funds are not withdrawn from your account until the campaign is completely over. If the campaign doesn't reach it's funding goal then your account wont be charged at all. Also you can still cancel your pledge or modify your pledge category any time up until the end of the campaign.


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## holygeez03 (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm pretty sure the Project Timeline needs to be updated with 2016 dates.


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## RUSH FAN (Oct 20, 2015)

Congratulations on launching this. 
Any plans to sell these online post-kickstarter? 
Or are you just making and selling for kickstarter only?


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## Tixx (Oct 20, 2015)

Backed project! Still prefer sites that use PayPal, but I have to get one of these!


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## holygeez03 (Oct 20, 2015)

When will the reviews be available?

If it had a momentary function on highest setting, I would seriously consider it for replacing my Quark Tactical Neutral that I use with a 14500. That Quark still has my favorite switch for momentary usage.

I love the look of the Firefly and the trits, but I really need it to do something that my Zebralights and Quarks can't do in order to spend that much money.

Not trying to be condescending... but can someone explain what this light provides, besides the trits, that isn't being done by other manufacturers for less money?


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## mckeand13 (Oct 20, 2015)

Seems like the reviewers should have had theirs delivered and written their reviews prior to launching on Kickstarter. 

I would have have like reading reviews prior to backing.


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## SA Condor (Oct 20, 2015)

mckeand13 said:


> Seems like the reviewers should have had theirs delivered and written their reviews prior to launching on Kickstarter.
> 
> I would have have like reading reviews prior to backing.



Well, when the reviews come out, if you're not happy with what you read/see, you can always cancel your pledge. But hopefully the reviews will be very favorable and there will be no need for that.

I know I sound like a broken record, but WHERE are the Early Bird specials for the Aluminum and Stainless Steel versions?!!!

Come on jashhash! Show us some CPF love!


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## stephenk (Oct 20, 2015)

holygeez03 said:


> Not trying to be condescending... but can someone explain what this light provides, besides the trits, that isn't being done by other manufacturers for less money?



3000k Warm White high CRI, and can use NiMH/Alkaline AAs. I'm not aware of any other light currently on sale that can use non Li-Ion AAs and has warm white high CRI. Being into night photography and light painting, a warmer tint (as in warm not neutral) is very useful. 

I'm backer #59 - Black aluminium with clip. 

Good luck Joshua - already 1/6 the way to your target!


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## onthebeam (Oct 20, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hey Onthebeam, how long are you staying in HK?
> 
> As far as pricing after the kickstarter campaign, It's hard to answer a question like that. If this light doesn't meet it's funding goal there will never be an after kickstarter sale.
> 
> Alright folks, the approval process is finished this project goes live in 1/2 hour.



Have been here since the 10th but have to return to the states Friday. Congrats on the strong launch!

(two small edit suggestions. One is to also put dimensions in inches. Second is that you have two spellings for Shenzhen...)


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## KeepingItLight (Oct 20, 2015)

Nice video for a great looking flashlight. 

I have only one small nitpick. You gotta get rid of the Ultratrash battery! It's degrading to position your fine product next to one of those. Use an AW or anything else.


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## NoNotAgain (Oct 20, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Funds are not withdrawn from your account until the campaign is completely over. If the campaign doesn't reach it's funding goal then your account wont be charged at all. Also you can still cancel your pledge or modify your pledge category any time up until the end of the campaign.


I attempted ordering a second light and it appears that the site overwrote my first order. Is there any way to order two lights?


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## eala (Oct 20, 2015)

I backed a Ti light with clip, no trits. I don't like trits, but I would think that small GITD pellets would be a better choice than raw SS bars for filling the trit slots.

eala


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## jashhash (Oct 20, 2015)

Sorry folks I had to get some sleep. Wow there is a lot of info to catch up on now so here goes:

KuanR: My wife and I will be in Macao this Thursday and Friday. We arrive in Macao at 3:00pm perhaps we can meet up after that. How about 5:00pm somewhere iconic... My phone won't work in Macau though so calling will be difficult.
SA Condor: Sorry to dissapoint you about there not being an aluminum with tritium earlybird... Please don't hate me.
Tixx: Yea I prefer paypal too but Kickstarter decided to partner with Amazon instead of Ebay.
holygeez03: The first light was sent to Gunga and he should be receiving it soon, After that he can let everyone know his impression on the light.
holygeez03: Yea I see that date error I'm working on it
mckeand13: Yes I realize that but you have the option to cancel at any time. I'm confident the reviewers will like it since I myself like it very much. Any small issue can be easily resolved after launch as well so don't worry.
onthebeam: Unfortunately I already have my tickets booked to Macau and have a pile of work to get done today before I go, HK is not possible today.
KeepingItLight: Yea... I know but when people see a little blue AA they automatically associate it with a LiIon, I think I can find a better brand of blue though. 
NoNotAgain: I keep an Excell sheet of special orders on the side, Just add the amount of the extra light to your existing pledge and send me a private message in Kickstarter letting me know what extra light your adding.
Eala: Unfortunately I'm not offering this option at the moment. I need to stay consistent with each pledge tier as far as what the light is, otherwise special orders start getting really complicated.


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## Espionage Studio (Oct 20, 2015)

Sorry if this is covered I didn't see it but if I get it with no tritium vials can the light be disassembled and I could install my own trits later? Are they a common size? Thank you sir I backed your campaign!


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## RUSH FAN (Oct 20, 2015)

Will any of these be made available post-kickstarter for online purchases?




jashhash said:


> Sorry folks I had to get some sleep. Wow there is a lot of info to catch up on now so here goes:
> 
> KuanR: My wife and I will be in Macao this Thursday and Friday. We arrive in Macao at 3:00pm perhaps we can meet up after that. How about 5:00pm somewhere iconic... My phone won't work in Macau though so calling will be difficult.
> SA Condor: Sorry to dissapoint you about there not being an aluminum with tritium earlybird... Please don't hate me.
> ...


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## gunga (Oct 20, 2015)

PM sent.


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## jashhash (Oct 20, 2015)

Hi Rush, I'm planning to offer these for sale after the campign, however I really want to see how the first production batch goes to make more decisions like this.


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## RUSH FAN (Oct 20, 2015)

Thanks! 
To be safe, I will pledge your kickstarter to secure a titanium beauty.



jashhash said:


> Hi Rush, I'm planning to offer these for sale after the campign, however I
> really want to see how the first production batch goes to make more decisions like this.


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## kkobayak (Oct 21, 2015)

Just pledged for a Titanium with clip, no trits...


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## Coltrane (Oct 21, 2015)

Just got one with trits. One question: will there be available after the campaign?


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## Wolfy1776 (Oct 21, 2015)

How many mah was the 14500 battery used to get the run times?
Is a 14500 battery required to get 450 lumens?


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## rickyro (Oct 21, 2015)

Just backed one early bird 135.


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## mgk65 (Oct 21, 2015)

Hi jash, I was pledge #1!

Is there a LiOn battery included?

Could that be an add on?


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## Tixx (Oct 21, 2015)

Hmmm...kickstarter link not working in first post for me. Gives a 404 error.


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## snowlover91 (Oct 21, 2015)

Tixx said:


> Hmmm...kickstarter link not working in first post for me. Gives a 404 error.



Try this link it works for me. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2112614854/firefly-flashlight


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## Tixx (Oct 21, 2015)

snowlover91 said:


> Try this link it works for me. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2112614854/firefly-flashlight



That worked, thanks!


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## TheBelgian (Oct 22, 2015)

Sooooo tempted to get one of these. Thinking of getting a credit card just for the purpose (most people only have debit cards in Europe). 
I do have a question about the alloys use for the different materials. 
To my knowledge the most used Al alloy is 6061-T5 for torches, so this will probably be the same. 
But what Steel alloy will the SS version be of? SAE 304? I know steel has a much lower thermal conductivity (especially SAE 304), will this give any troubles for heat sinking?


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## DellSuperman (Oct 22, 2015)

Arghh! So many options & i cant decide!

Done!! Alu HA-III with Trits & Clip! 
Now the waiting game starts


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## NoNotAgain (Oct 22, 2015)

TheBelgian said:


> Sooooo tempted to get one of these. Thinking of getting a credit card just for the purpose (most people only have debit cards in Europe).
> I do have a question about the alloys use for the different materials.
> To my knowledge the most used Al alloy is 6061-T5 for torches, so this will probably be the same.
> But what Steel alloy will the SS version be of? SAE 304? I know steel has a much lower thermal conductivity (especially SAE 304), will this give any troubles for heat sinking?



If you look at this thread, you'll see all of the parts required to build this light. The LED is flowed onto a large piece of copper which is screwed into the host body. Plenty of mass for carrying the heat away.


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## mckeand13 (Oct 22, 2015)

jashhash,

I didn't see weights listed anywhere for the lights in various materials. Could you post them?

Thanks.


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## AdamB (Oct 22, 2015)

Looks like a really nice design, congrats! Out of curiosity, would it be possible to pick 2 different trit colors? For example, alternating 4 blue and 4 yellow, or would that be more trouble than it's worth? Thanks in advance


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## neleus (Oct 23, 2015)

Really nice idea and design!
What I'm concerned about is how strong are trits. If I drop the firefly its metal body will kind of bend (to absorb the shock) but what about the trits? Glass cannot bend and may simply brake, unless there is some rubber damper.


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## jashhash (Oct 23, 2015)

HI Folks,
Sorry Ive been away for so long. The last 2 days my wife and I were in Macau. While we were there I met up with KuanR to show him one sample light with green trits. At our meet up I had the chance to look at 2 custom flashlights in his collection, a Jeff Hanko AA light and titanium spy flashlight. Wow I'm impressed by the craftsmanship these lights, it's complexity and attention to detail in these lights far exceeds my wildest dreams, like the bugatti veyron of the flashlight world. I can't believe how impossibly accurate the machining is on the spy light especially. Anyways my wife and I just arrived back to Shenzhen now so I can answer a few of your questions before bedtime.

Coltrane: Yes the firefly will be for sale after the campaign as well, but only after the first batch has been sent out to kickstarter backers. I don't have a set after kickstarter price yet, I need to see how this camaign goes first.

Wolfy1776: I used a superfire 900mah lithium ion battery, (I have doubts about it actually being 900mah though).

mgk65: I have a ultrafire here lying around does that count 

Tixx: Thanks for letting me know, I posted another link that should work.

TheBelgian: I think you can use a debit card too as long is it has the credit card logo on the bottom. The S/S is 304 aloy, the aluminum will be T6061-T6. There is a built in timer on turbo to prevent overheating. Also as mentioned the die of the LED is soldered directly to a copper slug that acts as a thermal mass.

mckeand13: Sure I will update the kickstarter page with weight measurements.


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## neutralwhite (Oct 23, 2015)

Hello very nice light.
whats it's warranty like?.
any beamshots of this hcri cree?.

thanks.


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## Harold_B (Oct 23, 2015)

If things are going according to plan there should be one heading to our lab for measurements. The integrating sphere is set up and so is the darkroom. I can get the output data within a day and beam shots with profile data posted in a day or so after that.


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## gunga (Oct 23, 2015)

Oh cool. I'm doing some evaluation now but am not equipped for those kind of measurements. I was planning on doing shots to try and display the tint (VERY warm).


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## stephenk (Oct 25, 2015)

2/3 the way to the target already. Looks like this kickstarter is going to be kickstarted!


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## jdboy (Oct 25, 2015)

As much as I liked the Ti the HA black Al with trits and a clip really knocked me out, pledge set.


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## okluma (Oct 25, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Actually I just found Mercava's post and placed an order with him here for some 11mm X 3mm tritium tubes in various colors.
> 
> I'm ordering 8 tubes in these colors:
> green
> ...


Hey, I looked through the search results but didn't really turn up anything, so I apologize if this has been addressed already.

How are you handling the NRC's restrictions on tritium?


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## NoNotAgain (Oct 25, 2015)

oklumen said:


> Hey, I looked through the search results but didn't really turn up anything, so I apologize if this has been addressed already.
> 
> How are you handling the NRC's restrictions on tritium?



From everything I've read, items may contain tritium provided it isn't an adornment. You may order a light or key fob with tritium, but by some legal scholars interpretations a necklace wouldn't be.

The vials themselves fall into a grey area of purchase.

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/cfr/part030/part030-0019.html


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## neleus (Oct 25, 2015)

I'm considering SS and Ti versions but it looks like SS is the least popular among backers. From my point it's much harder and resistant than Ti and Al so what is the reason of not coosing it? Weight?


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## gunga (Oct 25, 2015)

The SS is quite hefty and has less cachet then the ti. It is tougher though.


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## neutralwhite (Oct 25, 2015)

Bumpy.



neutralwhite said:


> Hello very nice light.
> whats it's warranty like?.
> any beamshots of this hcri cree?.
> 
> thanks.


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## jashhash (Oct 26, 2015)

Hi everyone, just to answer a few more questions:
neutralwhite: I'm offering a 1 year warranty from the time the package ships out to you, also there are beam shots in the video of the kickstarter campaign you can see here: http://kck.st/1W3BMo9
Harold_B: It should be arriving at your lab on Wednesday
NoNotAgain and oklumen: The flashlights will not be shipping from the USA for this reason.
neleus: Yes the S/S has the most heft (which I personally like). Most likely I will discontinue the s/s model and only keep aluminum an titanium.


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## Harold_B (Oct 26, 2015)

I'm looking forward to it. I should be able to turn around a test summary in a few days.

Kickstarter campaign is rocking! Well done.


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## TheBelgian (Oct 26, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hi everyone, just to answer a few more questions:
> 
> neleus: Yes the S/S has the most heft (which I personally like). Most likely I will discontinue the s/s model and only keep aluminium an titanium.


What will you do with the SS orders from the kickstarter? Drop them if it's not viable to make them at such a low production rate? I'm still very much down for a SS version (the low orders only make them more rare).
Also, do you know how the full speed production models will differ from the prototypes? Might the machining be less refined or actually better?


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

Okay folks. I'll be posting my impressions in the next day or two. Quick summary: this is an impressive quality light. The UI is simple and effective and the body and Clip are very good, the machining is very well done. 

Unfortunately, the trits are fragile and break easily. The LED tint is rather too warm (2900K?). This is being redesigned and tested currently. 

I have been in communication with Jashhash the entire time and we'll make sure the end result is top notch. I really do like the light. It still needs some refinements but Jashhash has been very responsive. 

A question for you all. The knurling is great. It is very aggressive. On the stainless and ti, it can likely be toned down with a light polish or fine sand. The aluminum version is likely to be a bit less aggressive after anodizing (I think). Do you guys think more aggressive is better? It's similar to classic Surefire level. Or would a slightly smoother finish be better? It can shred pants (the clip is firm) and skin but you won't drop it. 

Also, how warm to we want this? Similar to the classic High cri xpg? 3200K? Or a Nichia 219B? 4500-5000K (219C is not available in 90+ cri). I cannot speak for Jashhash on the final LED choice but would like to get a feeling on the preference. I'm guessing a lot of the buyers are from CPF, but I could be wrong.


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## Tixx (Oct 26, 2015)

I do know that 2900k, even if high CRI, will not be embraced by the masses. Can't go lower than 4000k. I don't think we know the temp, but I do have an XML2 2900k high CRI light.


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

Yes. It's very yellow/orange and looks dim. My high cri xpg is 3200K I believe (7A/B1 tint) and is quite beautiful. It all depends on the intent of the creator. High Cri, yes, but how warm?

I'm soliciting opinions but the final choice is up to the designer.


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## SA Condor (Oct 26, 2015)

I've been waiting for this feedback actually. The warmth is exactly what I was afraid of. I'm with Tixx, around 4000k is good for me. I also like The color of Nichia 219b. Hearing back from Jashhash and seeing what direction he goes will definitely effect my final decision on this project.


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## snowlover91 (Oct 26, 2015)

2900k is way too warm for most here including myself. I actually haven't backed it yet because of reading that, but if the LED is changed to a 4000k or higher then I'll definitely consider it. Anything lower than 4000k is a little too warm for me.


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## Espionage Studio (Oct 26, 2015)

I think it sounds too warm for my liking, I'd end up emitter swapping probably. How hard would this be to do?


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

The emitter is reflowed onto a copper pill. I think it's possible but would require more heat. Note. The final LED choice is not determined. We could still see Nichia 219 or such. Output may be less but tint would be more universally accepted.


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## Espionage Studio (Oct 26, 2015)

Good to hear! Thanks gunga, I look forward to your review.


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

Also note. Size is about the same as a quark AA or Fenix AA. Slimmer though.


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## Espionage Studio (Oct 26, 2015)

Is it slightly bigger than an Eagletac D25a Ti?


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## neutralwhite (Oct 26, 2015)

Nichia hcri 4000k like the hds 4000k hcri would be about right.


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

Yes. That's more subcompact. 80x17mm. This is more slim midsize. 97x20mm.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Oct 26, 2015)

I personally love warmer tint as it seems much more pleasant and for me, as the cct goes up, the light tends to feel "cheaper" and more in line with the type of flashlight you might find at wal mart... I would love 3000k. Perhaps 3700k. Hopefully no higher than 4000k. Perhaps you I'm part of a dying breed that prefers the "look and feel" of incandescent light. What are the odds of the light being made with two different emitter options?


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

Probably unlikely. Too many options already.
I'll poke around. Maybe we can find a suitable 4000K LED. No promises on anything though.


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

Quick comparison. I've been getting back into AA lights.


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## mckeand13 (Oct 26, 2015)

How could there all of the sudden be a possibility of changing the LED?

There are already over 200 backers who did so based on the published specs at the point they clicked "back this project".


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## neutralwhite (Oct 26, 2015)

Well they can always back out 



mckeand13 said:


> How could there all of the sudden be a possibility of changing the LED?
> 
> There are already over 200 backers who did so based on the published specs at the point they clicked "back this project".


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## neutralwhite (Oct 26, 2015)

4000 yes!. 



gunga said:


> Probably unlikely. Too many options already.
> I'll poke around. Maybe we can find a suitable 4000K LED. No promises on anything though.


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

That's also in consideration. We may be able to get a high cri XML2 with a touch cooler tint (the more common 3200K). The current tint (2900K, 7D1) is unlikely to appeal to anyone (sorry, my opinion only). These days I prefer 4-5000K Nichia but for a while all my lights were warm high cri xpg (3200K 7A/B1 tint). I do appreciate warm tints. Just not this one.

I'll discuss with Jashhash what direction he wants to go. Personally I would be fine with anything from around 3200 - 4700K. Warm can be beautiful.


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

neutralwhite said:


> 4000 yes!.



Don't get too excited! It's not my decision.


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## neutralwhite (Oct 26, 2015)

same. this warm tint feels..too warm."



gunga said:


> That's also in consideration. We may be able to get a high cri XML2 with a touch cooler tint (the more common 3200K). The current tint (2900K, 7D1) is unlikely to appeal to anyone. These days I prefer 4-5000K Nichia but for a while all my lights were warm high cri xpg (7A/B1 tint). I do appreciate warm tints. Just not this one.


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## easilyled (Oct 26, 2015)

gunga said:


> ......Unfortunately, the trits are fragile and break easily. .....



This would certainly be a concern for me. Are there any measures that can be taken to improve this?


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

Yes. It cannot be released as is. We are experimenting with different ideas and sizes at the moment. I broke two trits in basic drop testing. This will be fixed. I have a 3x22 trit in a key fob that I have dropped a lot. So far it is still intact so I know it can be done.


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## easilyled (Oct 26, 2015)

gunga said:


> Yes. It cannot be released as is. We are experimenting with different ideas and sizes at the moment. I broke two trits in basic drop testing. This will be fixed. I have a 3x22 trit in a key fob that I have dropped a lot. So far it is still intact so I know it can be done.



I'm pleased that you're looking into it. What about covering the outside of the trits with Norland?


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

Not sure that's possible/practical. It's also a lot more work. I'm curious about owners of trit equipped sunwayman v10r ti lights. I know they break but how easily do these break?


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## NoNotAgain (Oct 26, 2015)

gunga said:


> Yes. It cannot be released as is. We are experimenting with different ideas and sizes at the moment. I broke two trits in basic drop testing. This will be fixed. I have a 3x22 trit in a key fob that I have dropped a lot. So far it is still intact so I know it can be done.



Tritium vials are available in both glass and resin(plastic) A piece of silicone closed cell foam rubber in both the top and bottom acts as a shock absorber.


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

Thanks for the tip. Do you have a source for the resin vials?


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## lockdoc (Oct 26, 2015)

Been watching this and have held off on backing due to two main concerns. Led is too warm for my liking and protection of the tritium tube. Seems as though my concerns were warranted. I would definitely like to see a nichia 219b used and will be followed to see how things work out. Thanks to all involved for your time to help design and bring us a quality light.


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## NoNotAgain (Oct 26, 2015)

gunga said:


> Thanks for the tip. Do you have a source for the resin vials?



The first site that came up with the resin vials was AliExpress.


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## Espionage Studio (Oct 26, 2015)

I've heard a person can also use a small sliced section of O Ring as a bumper.


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

I'm a backer too so your concern is my concern. 



Edit. Thanks for the tip espionage studio!


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

Does anyone have an opinion on the knurling?


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## eala (Oct 26, 2015)

I would prefer slightly aggressive knurling. Don't see a use case that includes me being covered in slime in a high gravity environment trying to grip the light.

As for tint, I would not be a fan of the 2900K but did back this despite that. I would be much more in favour of a 4000K tint. CRI is less of a concern. The 4000K XPL LED that went into that special HDS run is superb. Why not look at XPL instead of XML or the Nichias?

Don't care about trits, so bail away brothers!

eala


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## NoNotAgain (Oct 26, 2015)

The way that I look at this light is two fold, one, it's titanium, and I hate anodized items which get scratched up in my pocket.

Secondly, I read the Kickstart that the light was going to be a high CRI version and a flood light profile to boot. If this light were being powered via a 18650, I might be more concerned about the color, but I'm not. Running from a single AAA battery I don't expect or do I want a light that appears the color of an auto parts store $5 bin light. Anyone thinking different is kidding themselves.

The more demands you place on this Kickstart, the more people are going to drop out and the more complicated this is going to get. I understand this is a semi-custom light, semi is the key word.

Please don't bog this down by demanding a multitude of led colors temperatures and CRI's.


----------



## InvisibleFrodo (Oct 26, 2015)

Is it just me, or is 4000k and especially 5000k and up a dime a dozen? It seems most are in favor of 4000k. I'm actually surprised at the lack of support for warmer warmer tints. Anyone else in favor of the warmer tints?


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

Again. Warm is fine if that's the direction we go. Just not THIS warm. 3200K is pretty darn warm.


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

The knurling won't cut you but I may be able to finish wood the way it is now. 



I do like it. Just might be a touch too much.


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## InvisibleFrodo (Oct 26, 2015)

I feel that a surefire 6p is an example of a bit too aggressive on knurling because it will abrade fabric.


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## stephenk (Oct 26, 2015)

I only backed this due to the warm (3000k) emitter, which are a rarity these days, and makes this product unique. 4000k and Nichia emitters are a dime a dozen on other products. If the emitter changes to anything other than a circa 3000k emitter I'll be un-backing it!


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

InvisibleFrodo said:


> I feel that a surefire 6p is an example of a bit too aggressive on knurling because it will abrade fabric.



Okay. I'll note this. This will definitely abrade fabric. 

I'll also note the tint preference. The kickstarter is based on warm tint so perhaps that's best. Would people have issue with 3200K? Think high cri xpg in hds (though that was reported to be 3500-3700K). Also the original quark high cri run. 

I think 2900K is too warm but if all the backers want warm, we should keep warm rather than 4000K. Note, if you are not a backer (and don't intend to be) and are strongly voicing your opinion, that's not very helpful is it? I'm not saying that anyone is doing so, just reminding people of the fact.


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## gunga (Oct 26, 2015)

Oh, and please note. I am talking a lot but I have no affiliation with Jashhash. I just really like a "boutique" AA light in this form factor. 

Did I mention the nice moonlight level? My estimate is 0.1 lumens but I would wait for the actual measured result. The warm tint could be throwing me off too.


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## monanza (Oct 27, 2015)

Less aggressive knurling on the Ti edition would be preferable. On another note, does KS allow more than one pledge? I'd like to add an Al as well. I would prefer a 219b HiCRI to the sub-3000K temp of the Cree but I'll take it anyway.


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## jashhash (Oct 27, 2015)

Wow, I went to sleep (curse this China time zone!) and I wake up to find such an active discussion is in progress. So it appears there are 3 main points of discussion here, first of all the issue with tritium tubes, second the warm tint, and finally the aggressive knurling. Here are my thoughts on the subject:

1. Tritium Tubes:
Yesterday I contacted Daniel from mixglo about the tritium tubes breaking. His suggestion is much like what Gunga says, to put in some O-Rings to dampen the shock when the light is dropped. That being said the 3mm X 11mm vial currently being used in the light doesn't offer much room for installing the cushion. I ordered 2 vial sizes from mixglo, first a 2.5mm X 10mm vial, and secondly 2mm X 12mm vial. My first choice is obviously the 2.5mm X 10mm vial since it's of larger diameter but with this vial I can only fit 0.35mm of silicone cushioning around the ends of each vial, this may be enough however, so if it survives the drop test I will be using this vial. If however this vial breaks then I will need to use the 2mm X 12mm vial and increase the cushion to 0.6mm. If I end up using the 2mm X 12mm vial then the length of the finned portion will need to be increased by 2mm. BTW instead of using o-rings I will be custom molding clear silicone end caps to fit the ends of each tritium vial. This update has been posted to kickstarter here: http://kck.st/1ibLamT

Also a lot of folks have been asking for me to design the firefly so the inserts are interchangeable. In order to accomplish this, the heat sink slug needs to be split in two pieces, an outer threaded spacer ring which will be made of brass, and the inner heat sink slug which is made of copper. I'm bringing up this design revision with my machinist today and will keep you updated with his response. You can see an illustration of how this works in the below section view. 




2. LED Tint:
As mentioned, yes this is a warm light at approximately 2900K. I hadn’t realized until right now that there are so many CPF members who would prefer a more neutral 4000K tint (still high CRI). While I can’t just change all the LEDs and make them cool mid campaign, I can add on an additional pledge level using a Nichia 219B. It’s not that difficult to add this option. All I need to do mill the copper solder pad smaller and get another FR-4 board made with the right footprint. Both of these changes are quick and inexpensive on my end. The only issue here would be sourcing the LED since unlike CREE the nichea LED is made in Japan. If it all works out I hope to offer a titanium + tritium + clip model using the 219B. 

3. Aggressive knurling:
This is by far the easiest issue to tackle. All my machinist has to do is use a larger diameter ball end mill. This will change the angle at which the knurling is cut and therefore take away that bite. 


Also a few other things I would like to mention:

1. Swapping out vials:
I'm revising the tritium model a bit with how the tubes sit inside the heat sink fin. It's been brought to my attention by my reviewer (Gunga) that dropping the firefly from waist height on concrete will crack the vials. In order to resolve this issue I will be putting tiny silicone caps on the tritium vials and doing some drop testing of my own. I will keep you posted on the results of this testing. The above section view shows how the padding and vial are now to be installed within the tube slots. 

2. Situation of samples right now:
There have been a total of 2 samples sent out so far, one to Gunga, the other to Harold_B. I haven’t heard back from Amelia about the sample reserved for her yet but since I already have feedback from Gunga I’m not going to release anymore samples until the changes mentioned above have been performed. I hope to get all these changes made and have another sample sent out to before the kickstarter campaign is over. 

3. The S/S model:
I personally like the S/S model for its heft and shiny bright finish; however it appears that I’m mostly alone in this. While I will still fulfill the S/S order for this kickstarter campaign, that model will be discontinued after I sell out my stock. I expect that only 100pc of the s/s version will ever be made. After the kickstarter campaign I will be selling the aluminum and titanium models on my website portingaproducts.com and here on CPF. 

4. Clip Screws:
Since I live here in Shenzhen I have access to a lot of custom screw maker manufacturers. I got a price quote for making custom s/s socket cap screws and well let’s say the prices are quite reasonable (even though I need to order 50,000pc). For the final clip I will increased the thread size from 2mm to 2.5mm while also reducing the diameter of the head to 3.5mm. The increase in thread size will increase the clips strength at the joint. Also by reducing the head diameter I can decrease the clip width by 1mm (which is a noticeable difference) to more closely resemble the first clip design which most people prefer. 

That’s all for now, I need to head on over to the electronics district now to talk with the machinist and a silicone injection molder. Also I have a finish sample to approve for the stacks magnet project.


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## gunga (Oct 27, 2015)

Great update. Excellent news all around.


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## KuanR (Oct 27, 2015)

Sorry for the late response.

I met up with jashhash and got to play with the light for a while. A lot of the things I mentioned have been covered here so I won't go too in depth with it.

Tint: For this light I liked the warm tint, but the light I saw seemed a bit cooler than 2900k, more in tune with the 3200k gunga mentioned. Maybe it was the environment or led variance, but it didn't seem THAT warm to me.

Trtitum options: I had also mentioned if there was a possible way to change the vials without desoldering anything and jashhash is already looking into it. I did mention about adding another o-ring near the base of the copper heatsink to cushion the vials a bit. Personally I am pretty careful with my lights, so if the vials are changeable, I don't mind sticking with the large 3x11mm trits as they are BRIGHT!

As for the level spacing, I didn't get to try the light with an Eneloop because I forgot to bring one. I will wait to see what Harold_B's numbers are with all battery chemistries before making any suggestions.

The quality of the light is outstanding. For the price it's definitely a bargain and could easily be part of a high end customs collection. I brought along my Tri-V3 and Jhanko LF2XT and based on what I saw and felt, I would not mind subbing the Firefly into my EDC rotation. The threading was smooth and it felt great in the hand. I also brought up the knurling was a bit aggressive and jashhash is already fixing that by suggesting using a bigger ball mill on the finishing pass of machining.

I think that covers most of the topics discussed and what I talked to jashhash about. Once he gets another sorted sample out I will be meeting up with him again to check it out. I will report back again. In the mean time I will still be backing this in titanium with all options once I sort out my kickstarter account in Macau.


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## gunga (Oct 27, 2015)

Thanks for the feedback KuanR! I dunno. The light made everything yellow orange, with a slight hint of green. I hope the LED variance is not that bad. I may have gotten a bad sample LED.


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## phosphor22 (Oct 27, 2015)

gunga said:


> Great update. Excellent news all around.



Seconding Gunga's statement (thanks for the review; .1 or .2 moonlight/firefly sounds good to me, too) 
I am looking forward to seeing the upcoming beamshots - great to see the quick turnaround and development regarding many of the ideas/suggestions, Jashhash


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## neutralwhite (Oct 27, 2015)

Certainly firefly. 0.2. 




phosphor22 said:


> Seconding Gunga's statement (thanks for the review; .1 or .2 moonlight/firefly sounds good to me, too)
> I am looking forward to seeing the upcoming beamshots - great to see the quick turnaround and development regarding many of the ideas/suggestions, Jashhash


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## neleus (Oct 27, 2015)

It looks like the specs says there is a wide range of color temperature within one led model, see here (klick VARIATIONS). Hope I'll get 3750K :thumbsup:. Also ability to replace the trits is a big big pro for me!
BTW regarding Ti vs SS, there is an interesting comparison here (assuming the flashlight is Ti Grade5 or SS 304/316).


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## Cyraph (Oct 27, 2015)

monanza said:


> [...] On another note, does KS allow more than one pledge? [...]



No, there's a limit of one pledge per account. But, if Jashhash is ok with it, you can always raise your amount pledged to add another flashlight.


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## jdboy (Oct 27, 2015)

jashhash said:


> 1. Tritium Tubes:
> Yesterday I contacted Daniel from mixglo about the tritium tubes breaking. His suggestion is much like what Gunga says, to put in some O-Rings to dampen the shock when the light is dropped. That being said the 3mm X 11mm vial currently being used in the light doesn't offer much room for installing the cushion. I ordered 2 vial sizes from mixglo, first a 2.5mm X 10mm vial, and secondly 2mm X 12mm vial. My first choice is obviously the 2.5mm X 10mm vial since it's of larger diameter but with this vial I can only fit 0.35mm of silicone cushioning around the ends of each vial, this may be enough however, so if it survives the drop test I will be using this vial. If however this vial breaks then I will need to use the 2mm X 12mm vial and increase the cushion to 0.6mm. If I end up using the 2mm X 12mm vial then the length of the finned portion will need to be increased by 2mm. BTW instead of using o-rings I will be custom molding clear silicone end caps to fit the ends of each tritium vial. This update has been posted to kickstarter here: http://kck.st/1ibLamT
> 
> Also a lot of folks have been asking for me to design the firefly so the inserts are interchangeable. In order to accomplish this, the heat sink slug needs to be split in two pieces, an outer threaded spacer ring which will be made of brass, and the inner heat sink slug which is made of copper. I'm bringing up this design revision with my machinist today and will keep you updated with his response. You can see an illustration of how this works in the below section view.
> ...



1. I may have missed this but is there any way possible that the Trit option lights be shipped with the SS pins also. That way the pins can be inserted for EDC.
EDIT: I suppose since they'll be user serviceable one could just dump the trits out and leave the spaces empty for worry free EDC.

2. I really hope the Ti, Trit, Clip, and 219B option works out. I myself like the more neutral tints but was willing to back this even with the "warmer than I care for" tint.


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## easilyled (Oct 27, 2015)

gunga said:


> Not sure that's possible/practical. It's also a lot more work. I'm curious about owners of trit equipped sunwayman v10r ti lights. I know they break but how easily do these break?



I have one but like all my lights I baby it. Therefore no drop tests have been carried out, either on purpose or accidentally!

So far the trits are all intact but that's hardly surprising given how careful I am with it.


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## rickyro (Oct 27, 2015)

I backed Ti without Tritium with clip. I chose not Tritium due to two reasons: 
1. S/S tubes look more cool to me, more looking like that old school Gatling gun with all metal design and this is the biggest attracting point of this light to me. 
2. yes, the vials in glass may be fragile.

So I really don't care what will be done with the cushions and anti-dropping measures, I will always choose S/S tubes.


But about the CCT and LED choice, I do care. I have one HDS HCRI 219B 4500K from last year, I like the tint but I hate that donuts ring (this year's new HCRI version has addressed this problem as I read from that long HDS post here). I have several Peak LED Eiger AAA with 219B customed by Oveready, I also love the tint and beam pattern. I have one McGizmo Haiku XP-G2 4000K, which looks fabulous even it is not claimed HCRI.

I worried about the XM-L2, because all lights made of XM-L2 I have have that ugly green tint between hot spot and spill if you are doing some white wall hunting. I am even afraid of it now due to Gunga's report. XP-G2 and 219B have more unified color in all sectors/areas of the beam.

I do want the tint to be warm. I like the 4500K of HDS Rotary 219B. But when I have the McGizmo 4000K XP-G2, I love its warmer tint more in the night when staying in the room. But I am also worried if the tint is going too warm, then maybe it will turned to the uglier side instead of being more comfy, resulting being dimmer and color not easy to tell correctly. However I don't have any first hand experience, so I trust what Gunga said and I don't want it to be so low to be around 2900K.


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## NoNotAgain (Oct 27, 2015)

rickyro said:


> I backed Ti without Tritium with clip. I chose not Tritium due to two reasons:
> 1. S/S tubes look more cool to me, more looking like that old school Gatling gun with all metal design and this is the biggest attracting point of this light to me.
> 
> I worried about the XM-L2, because all lights made of XM-L2 I have have that ugly green tint between hot spot and spill if you are doing some white wall hunting. I am even afraid of it now due to Gunga's report. XP-G2 and 219B have more unified color in all sectors/areas of the beam.
> ...



If you go to the Firefly video at 1:10, you can see a white wall with what is supposed to be the LED used in the Firefly.

I'm far from being either a tint snob or a lover of flood lights, but the light projected on the hallway wall looks natural, I don't see any donut rings, or hints of green.

Gunga, do you have access to a light color meter? I'd kind of like seeing numbers to rule out if it's just the sample received.

After Josuha's update this morning, I went back and also ordered a light in stainless steel to use as an EDC. It's smaller than my 6P/Nitecore P20 and will fit in my pocket verses the holster presently used.


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## SA Condor (Oct 27, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Also a lot of folks have been asking for me to design the firefly so the inserts are interchangeable. In order to accomplish this, the heat sink slug needs to be split in two pieces, an outer threaded spacer ring which will be made of brass, and the inner heat sink slug which is made of copper.
> 
> 2. LED Tint:
> As mentioned, yes this is a warm light at approximately 2900K. I hadn’t realized until right now that there are so many CPF members who would prefer a more neutral 4000K tint (still high CRI). While I can’t just change all the LEDs and make them cool mid campaign, I can add on an additional pledge level using a Nichia 219B. It’s not that difficult to add this option. All I need to do mill the copper solder pad smaller and get another FR-4 board made with the right footprint. Both of these changes are quick and inexpensive on my end. The only issue here would be sourcing the LED since unlike CREE the nichea LED is made in Japan. If it all works out I hope to offer a titanium + tritium + clip model using the 219B.



Hi jashhash,

A couple questions regarding the quote above:

1) Since the effort is being made to make the tritium interchangeable, would this also allow those that are ordering with out trit vials to order vials after the fact and install them? 

Also, you mentiones in the KS comment section that 4 vials and 4 SS tubes would not be doable since they'd be 'locked' in place? However, now what I'm seeing by your diagram, this is now a possibility???


2) Regarding the Nichia. You only mention the Titanium+Tritium+Clip model with a Nichia. Please oh please don't tell me that it wouldn't be available at every pledge level as an option!!! Also, since you mention sourcing the Nichias as a potential difficulty, why not select a 4000k Cree??

I look forward to your responses!


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## Digital Copywrite (Oct 27, 2015)

First I'd like to say that I'm really happy to see the collaborative work going into making this light awesome. I managed to get in on an earlybird for Ti+Clip+Trits as I've been watching this develop for awhile. I'm still pretty worried about the fragility of the tritium vials, but it looks like something that is going to be addressed before manufacturing.

However, like others, I am worried this emitter may be a bit too warm for me. Having a warmer tint was one of the biggest attractions of this light for me, but at 2900-3200k I'm also feeling this may just a bit too warm for my tastes. Having a more moderate option would be great (up to ~4000k); is this something that we'd be able to adjust our pledge for if we've already backed?

Either way, best of luck in getting these issues ironed out and hitting the project goal!


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## neleus (Oct 27, 2015)

> Also, since you mention sourcing the Nichias as a potential difficulty, why not select a 4000k Cree??


+1, if possible I'd prefer Cree NW too.

Done, backed Ti without trits + clip  (UPDATE: Since it's not Grade5 Ti so I switched to SS version)


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## TheBelgian (Oct 27, 2015)

As far as tint is concerned, one of the major reasons I want to back this project is for the rare Warm (actually warm, not neutral "warm") tint (*3000K =* :thumbsup. What 2900K vs 3200K (7D3 tint-bin is closer to 2900K) is concerned, I don't have experience of either in a torch (again, rare tint), but my indoor LED lightbulbs are 2700k and I like the tint (although, that's a cosy indoor setting, outdoors it might be different). Maybe the soft cosiness of warm white vs. the harshness of cool white (or even relative to creamy neutral) may make it look less bright (for equivalent lumens, I know Warm white LED's are less efficient).



neleus said:


> It looks like the specs says there is a wide range of color temperature within one led model, see here (klick VARIATIONS). Hope I'll get 3750K :thumbsup:.


Don't bet on it. The led's are tint bin 7D3, which if you look at this image hereunder, puts it on the warm side of 3000k, along the lines of 2900k. The variations you linked just tell you you can get up to 3750k in HiCRI.
Also since jashhash as already bought the LED reel, I don't think he can easily switch to a different tint-bin, without incurring considerable cost to himself.


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## gunga (Oct 27, 2015)

I don't think a reel has been purchased. That is why we are considering other options


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## holygeez03 (Oct 27, 2015)

I somehow got a Thrunite Neutron 1A (old version, used with 14500) with an emitter near the 3000K temp years ago... it's still one of my favorite lights for certain purposes due to its warm-ness (ALL of my lights excepts AAA's are neutral/warm)... but I'll bet a lot of people will complain if they get a light that warm (7D) since it isn't perceived as "bright" as cooler temps.

If would be awesome if a semi-custom light like this offered a wide choice in temps... I would love a super compact 18650 light with a warm ~3000K tint... but my SC62w is close enough for now.


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## gunga (Oct 27, 2015)

While I see some preference for 4000K (which I favour), the kickstarter is based on warm tint. We'll have to see how Jashhash wants to proceed.


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## TheBelgian (Oct 27, 2015)

gunga said:


> I don't think a reel has been purchased. That is why we are considering other options


He hasn't? I thought I saw somewhere early in the thread that he received a spool of LED's. Maybe it was a small sample spool (dunno what quantities they come in).
But another question, who will be doing the assembly of the lights? So far jashash has done it himself, but I can't imagine him doing all 200+ of them for full production.


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## neutralwhite (Oct 27, 2015)

Same, if it ends up being very warm then so be it. 
this will make the light much more unique .
I will still back this regardless just so long we don't forget HCRI and head into cool territory.



gunga said:


> While I see some preference for 4000K (which I favour), the kickstarter is based on warm tint. We'll have to see how Jashhash wants to proceed.


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## NoNotAgain (Oct 27, 2015)

I've been through all of the Cree data sheets. The only XM-L2 LED's in 90+ CRI are in the 2600-3200k range. When you look at the chromaticity though, all 4 of the 90 CRI bins fall in around 2900k.

The Firefly video shows the light at the various modes white walling. The color appears uniform all the way across with not tints of green or donut holes which I would expect with a close range flood type light.

It would be great if there were a light engine that could just be dropped into a host and you could just a la carte whatever you wanted, but I forgot who vendor was a few years back that had built a light that CPF members had to have and they sold like ice to Eskimos.


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## gunga (Oct 27, 2015)

I'll let Jashhash take a look. A full reel was not purchased. I think these are samples.


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## holygeez03 (Oct 27, 2015)

I agree that a high CRI ~3000K LED is great for a semi-custom light such as this, aimed at well-informed light collectors...


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## tab665 (Oct 27, 2015)

*disclaimer- im not backer* when I had a Prometheus bespoke made a couple years ago that the HCRI xm-l2 I was able to source was 3200k. also it was a S6 bin whereas the bin being used here is S5. cant remember if I ordered them from arrow or mouser electronics. it was measured at a hair over 600 lumens, high mode is perfect, the lower modes do give a dying incan vibe (which I like also). just wanted to add that there are HCRI xm-l2's out there that are not quite as warm, also high binned


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## gunga (Oct 27, 2015)

Good to know. I think that's what we want. There could be a Nichia option as Jashhash stated.


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## rickyro (Oct 27, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> If you go to the Firefly video at 1:10, you can see a white wall with what is supposed to be the LED used in the Firefly.
> 
> I'm far from being either a tint snob or a lover of flood lights, but the light projected on the hallway wall looks natural, I don't see any donut rings, or hints of green.
> 
> ...



Video or photo are sometimes very misleading or disguising the truth. For example, the CCT can never be displayed corrected in a photo since the picture is taken by a camera with whatever CCT setting you may never know.

So I would rather to trust some famous CPF flasholics instead of some photos or videos.


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## rickyro (Oct 27, 2015)

gunga said:


> Good to know. I think that's what we want. There could be a Nichia option as Jashhash stated.




But that option seems to be only one with tritium which I actually don't prefer.


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## NoNotAgain (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm still waiting for Gunga to reply if he has access to a color meter. 
If there's an issue with the sample or possibly the led was being overly regulated causing a color shift, if like to know. 
I used to test things for a living. SWAGS are free, results cost money. 
One test is worth a thousand educated guesses. 

And this comment isn't directed to cast aspersions at anyone, just looking for facts.


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## gunga (Oct 27, 2015)

No sir. No colour meter. I don't believe the LED is over regulated. The orange tinge is in all levels. It is one sample so could be sample variation. That said, I don't think any one would be happy with this tint (unless you really like incan maglite solitaires).


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## TheBelgian (Oct 27, 2015)

If the tint could still be discussed (sorry jashhash for adding to the list of suggested changes, but I like the design so much, I really hope the KS succeeds), might I suggest the 7B1 or 7B4 bins (in as hi a brightness bin as you can find for HiCRI)? They are on the slightly cooler side of 3000K yet still rare, remaining a unique selling point.


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## MJPIA (Oct 27, 2015)

Been following along with the project from around the beginning and user replaceable rods/vials is a must for me.
I'll hop onboard as soon as that is confirmed possible.


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## mckeand13 (Oct 27, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Also a lot of folks have been asking for me to design the firefly so the inserts are interchangeable. In order to accomplish this, the heat sink slug needs to be split in two pieces, an outer threaded spacer ring which will be made of brass, and the inner heat sink slug which is made of copper. I'm bringing up this design revision with my machinist today and will keep you updated with his response. You can see an illustration of how this works in the below section view.



jashhash,

What's the reasoning behind splitting the heat sink slug into 2 pieces (copper & brass)? That appears to add unnecessary complexity. Why not just make 2 versions of the copper slug?

Also, what is the purpose of the o-ring between the slug and reflector?

Thanks.


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## gunga (Oct 27, 2015)

Might be easier to machine. Copper is a great heat conductor but is hard to work with. The oring is needed for waterproofing the head. Odd location though.


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## mckeand13 (Oct 27, 2015)

gunga said:


> Might be easier to machine. Copper is a great heat conductor but is hard to work with. The oring is needed for waterproofing the head. Odd location though.



Copper machines quite nicely if you know what you're doing. 

With no squeeze on the o-ring as shown, it won't be waterproofing anything. Sealing of some type is missing from other joints if this light is intended to be waterproof to some degree.

I figured the o-ring was intended to apply pressure to one of the components or act as a shock absorber of some type. 

The design may very well still need refinement and it's there as a placeholder as shown. 

Jashhash can comment on it so we know the real intent.


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## mckeand13 (Oct 27, 2015)

Josh,

Just a suggestion to make the filler rods a simple purchased part: Would you want to use stainless dowel pins? They would require no cut to length operation. They also have a nice ground finish as compared to a mill finish of stainless rod.

Alternatively, you could use ground bearing shafting but that would require cutting to length and finishing the ends.


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## gunga (Oct 27, 2015)

Ah. I guess so. An oring needs to be in the brass section. Also, the brass section may need some light thread lock so it doesn't unscrew with the head.

Edit: unless the brass is a retaining ring that tightens into the head. Then the whole thing threads into the copper slug. Makes more sense but I'm speculating.


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## jashhash (Oct 28, 2015)

Regarding the current LED bin:
So far I’ve only received a sample off that reel in the photo and haven’t bought the full reel yet. As far as production time goes, I don’t need the LED until the final steps of production anyways so I have a good 5 week window of time to source the best bin. I’m totally open to the possibility of using a more desirable bin, my only strict requirement is the LED needs to be rated 90+CRI, which is why I didn’t offer it in 4000K. To my knowledge the only way to maintain 90+ CRI while still being 4000K is by using a Nichia 219B. So far it doesn’t look like I will have enough backers to use up 2 reels of LEDs though, so I really wouldn’t like to spend so much of the funding buying a full reel of Nichia 219B LEDs in addition to the XM-L2 reel. If, however someone here on CPF can sell me say 150pc of the Nichia LED’s I will add another pledge level in a limited quantity. 

Regarding swapping tubes:
I met with my machinist yesterday and confirmed that re-designing is possible and won’t take too long to perform. For clarification the below diagram shows how the flashlight will come apart with the revision. As you see the brass retaining ring holds the reflector and glass assembly together so when you unscrew the head these components won’t fall out. This brass threaded portion needs to be held in place with a semi permanent hot melt adhesive, so If you really need to get to the reflector or glass you can simply soak the bezel assembly in hot water and unscrew it. There is a black 1.5mm thick o-ring you see between the brass bezel ring and the reflector. Once the bezel assembly is screwed on to the copper slug it will compress against this o-ring preventing water from getting inside. 



images upload




The S/S filler rods:
These will be produced by my flashlight machinist. They are really quick and easy to make.

How to pledge for more than one light:
Kickstarter only allows you to submit one pledge, however you can simply increase your pledge amount to cover the second item. The second item is combined in shipping so don’t worry about paying the shipping fee twice. If you are pledging for more than one light be sure to send me a PM in kickstarter letting me know what you want your second light to be. 

Regarding adding extra options to the kickstarter campaign:
This is a bit of a touchy issue for me, since adding too many features and options will over complicate the campaign. You see research shows that if you offer a customer too many options they are likely to just get confused and walk away without buying. By adding extra options I might make 1 person happy but then the over complicatedness of it all will likely drive away 5 would-be-backers. There was a TED talk which addresses this phenomenon here: https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice?language=en 
In my opinion I have already way too many options on this campaign, and if I were to run it over I would probably take out the s/s version and remove the titanium clip as an optional accessory and just include it with all the flashlights. For the sake of trying to keep things less complicated I’m only considering to add the Nichia 219b option in the Titanium + Tritium + clip option in a limited quantity.


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## gunga (Oct 28, 2015)

Try Mtn Electronics, or Perhaps Intl-outdoor.com. They may be able to help with Nichia. Mtn is in the states but Intl-Outdoor is in China (I think). Good guys, both of them, both reliable sourcew of LEDs. They may be able to get you 150.


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## jashhash (Oct 28, 2015)

Looks like intl-outdoor.com has 83pc left in stock: http://intl-outdoor.com/nichia-nvsw219btv1-r9050-d220-bare-led-p-875.html fairly cool color temperature 5310K-4745K. What do you think should I snatch these up?


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## jashhash (Oct 28, 2015)

Alright I've got to go back to the electronics district again to meet with some suppliers. I will be back on CPF in about 4 hours.


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## gunga (Oct 28, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Looks like intl-outdoor.com has 83pc left in stock: http://intl-outdoor.com/nichia-nvsw219btv1-r9050-d220-bare-led-p-875.html fairly cool color temperature 5310K-4745K. What do you think should I snatch these up?



These are the v1 leds. They have higher performance, similar to 219C but have high cri (219C is only available in 83 cri I believe). 

It would likely work for me but I'll let the masses comment.


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## gunga (Oct 28, 2015)

My review is found here:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ickstarter-light-quot-)&p=4764542#post4764542

I will be posting pictures and perhaps more detail tomorrow. Sorry, just no time tonight.


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## mixglo (Oct 28, 2015)

Sign in to KS and pledged 1x Ti with clip, w/o trits.
plus $70 for 1x S/S without clip, w/o trits (I really like Stainless steel one).
Daniel


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## jashhash (Oct 28, 2015)

Thanks for posting up the review Gunga, your review link has been added to the kickstarter page.


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## neutralwhite (Oct 28, 2015)

Thanks gunga,


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## gunga (Oct 28, 2015)

Hey folks. Are you okay with Nichia 219B, around 5000K as an alternate tier? Most 219B is around that range. A touch cooler than the 219A (4500K).


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## Wolfy1776 (Oct 28, 2015)

Can someone do a run time with AA battery


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## KuanR (Oct 28, 2015)

Normally I'm into the 4500k range, but for this light I really enjoyed the warmer tint. Not to mention I find the 219b to not pack enough of a punch. I have a few lights with them and they are the last lights I will use or when SHTF.

With the recent XP-L I get great tint and noticeably brighter than the Nichia offerings.

Keeping the XM-L2 for this light in the 3200k range is the best move, from the design and campaign point of view.

But that's all just me thinking out loud.


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## gunga (Oct 28, 2015)

Thanks for the input. Good points to ponder.


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## neutralwhite (Oct 28, 2015)

Very good.
Being at 5000k, would the 219b still be a hcri 90+?.
Thanks.

5000k would also be a different thing as we've had the 4500 around for some good time now.
The warm original would be just as good, but 5000 is great as long as it's still hcri right!. 
either way.
maybe try a poll on the tint choice?.





gunga said:


> Hey folks. Are you okay with Nichia 219B, around 5000K as an alternate tier? Most 219B is around that range. A touch cooler than the 219A (4500K).


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## Digital Copywrite (Oct 28, 2015)

neutralwhite said:


> Very good.
> Being at 5000k, would the 219b still be a hcri 90+?.
> Thanks.
> 
> ...



Right there with you. I think the High CRI is still a top priority for this light. At 5000K it would actually a bit further to the cool side than I was hoping for, but I probably still prefer it to the current one. I do like the idea of a warmer tint, but I still feel the currently chosen emitter is just a little too far on the warm side for my purposes. If an alternative LED becomes a choice, I am likely to take it.

I *do* like the 219B lights I own/have seen. The lower output doesn't really bother me for this type of light but could be a concern for some.

However, nothing is going to please everyone. If this project is successful and will continue to be produced and sold post-kickstarter, what's the potential for LED choice?


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## gunga (Oct 28, 2015)

Nice trits...


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## Newguy2012 (Oct 28, 2015)

neutralwhite said:


> Very good.
> Being at 5000k, would the 219b still be a hcri 90+?.
> Thanks.
> 
> ...


They do have one with hcri, actually there's more than one choice. This one NVSW219BT-V1-r9050-d220 has a min r9 of 50. I would love to see the *NVSL219B-V1 4000k with R9 50 or 80. *It's available at 4500k if you settle for 80cri


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## gunga (Oct 29, 2015)

I have updated the review!

Pictures, beam shot, tint demonstrations and more bits and pieces. Take a look and let me know your thoughts!


My review is found here:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ickstarter-light-quot-)&p=4764542#post4764542


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## jashhash (Oct 29, 2015)

Thanks for the review and the pictures Gunga. I agree the 219A beam color looks quite nice and hope to find a few good bins to include in the firefly campaign. As was mentioned I'm working on fixing the following issues and getting another review sample back to Gunga and a other reviewers ETA 11/20/15:

Things that will be changed in the next few review samples:
I'm making the tritium tubes interchangeable by changing the way the copper slug is milled
The tritium tubes will be padded with silicone caps to protect them from shock vibrations
The sharp edge on the tail fin will be removed.

Things I'm still looking into right now:
I'm trying to find a few 90cri 4000 - 4500K 219B LED's option to add onto the campaign. 

Things that will be changed in the production model:
The knurling will be softened. 
Slightly thicker square threads.


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## neleus (Oct 29, 2015)

Want to share some idea about broken vials. This is just a hypothesis of why they may broke. See image.
My assumption is that the body behind the vials is more flexible than in other places and that may cause the issue.
The idea is to put additional metal spacers between the vials to make the construction at that place less flexible.

What do you guys think? Does it make sense?


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## NoNotAgain (Oct 29, 2015)

neleus said:


> Want to share some idea about broken vials. This is just a hypothesis of why they may broke. See image.
> My assumption is that the body behind the vials is more flexible than in other places and that may cause the issue.
> The idea is to put additional metal spacers between the vials to make the construction at that place less flexible.
> 
> What do you guys think? Does it make sense?



The copper heat sink is close to being a solid piece of metal. The Tritium vials appear to be a very close fit to the bores in which the reside. The glass used on the trits is thin and won't take any side loading, as evidenced by the as received broken trits.

A smaller diameter tritium vial in a silicone boot will act as a shock reduction devise as well as finding a source for the resin (acrylic) vials


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## mckeand13 (Oct 29, 2015)

T2 bin, 90CRI, 3000K.

Josh, order a reel.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...rknbu83y2v%2bSc/9JbOg4fpDzFZz/sB39zwol0C/FA==


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## gunga (Oct 29, 2015)

Josh is in China. That could pose challenges. Also, there is no specified tint bin. We have no idea what it actuality is. E7 is pretty broad.


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## tab665 (Oct 29, 2015)

gunga said:


> Josh is in China. That could pose challenges. Also, there is no specified tint bin. We have no idea what it actuality is. E7 is pretty broad.



in that case... http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMu4Prknbu83yyq8B/Da/kIgE8Ui/4RQefk=
Z7 narrows down the tint range to 7A3, 7B4, 7C1 and 7D2. S6 bin, 98 LEDs on hand. again, im not a backer, just been following the thread.


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## gunga (Oct 29, 2015)

Can you specify where you got the info on the specific bins?


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## neutralwhite (Oct 29, 2015)

Very good.



mckeand13 said:


> T2 bin, 90CRI, 3000K.
> 
> Josh, order a reel.
> 
> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...rknbu83y2v%2bSc/9JbOg4fpDzFZz/sB39zwol0C/FA==


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## jashhash (Oct 29, 2015)

The trouble I have with mouser's bin # is that it's not specific enough, From what I can tell that bin on mouser could be anywhere between 2600K - 3200K which is a wide tolerance. My flashlight manufacturer here is able to source exact tint bins here in China, but they have to choose from reels they have in stock and most 90CRI reels are right around 3000K. I have a source for another bin #XMLBWT-0-7C4-T20-0U-0001 here, I will talk to some other LED vendors in the electronics district here to see if they have a more desirable tint reel. My flashlight manufacturer and I talked today about splitting a reel of 219B LEDs too if he can source a nice bin, I will let you guys know how this develops. 

As far as the theory above about how the vials are breaking, I don't believe the bezel will be able to flex that far in a fall, I did some drop testing in which I dropped it on the tail end and still have breakage issues. I still believe they are breaking from shock vibration. If you ever hit a baseball really hard with a bat you can feel that sort of shock vibration in your hands. If it is shock vibration, then some silicone dampeners should do the trick. I just received a few tritium vials from mixglo and will be performing some drop testing over here I will let you all know tomorrow the results of these drop tests. If this doesn't work I will be looking into using resin vials.


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## gunga (Oct 29, 2015)

I'd go with a specific good bin of LED. Either warm XML2 or Nichia 219B. Whatever you can find. The parameters may have to change to suit the LEDS you find.


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## neutralwhite (Oct 30, 2015)

Have you ever thought of using those smart blue flurosilicone O rings like Prometheus and Sinner Customs Use?.
a nice touch!. 
Thanks.


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## jashhash (Oct 30, 2015)

Alright as promised here are the results of my drop tests. All drop testing was performed at a height of 4ft on to bare concrete. In each test the flashlight was dropped once on the front bezel, once on the tail end, and two drops on the side. 






To simulate silicone end caps I used heat shrink tubing on either side of the 2.5mm X 10mm tritium vial. The final version will have injection molded clear silicone caps. 





Here is my first drop test setup. The tritium tube on the top is a 2.5mm X 10mm with silicone end caps. The tube in the middle is a 2.5mm X 10mm tritium tube with no padding. The red tube on the bottom is the original 3mm X 11mm tritium tube without any padding.




After 4 drops from waist height you can see both green tritium tubes survived. I was surprised that the 2.5mm X 10mm tritium tube survived these drops without any padding. The original 3mm X 11mm tritium tube cracked on the first drop.




Since the 2.5mm X 10mm bare tritium tube survived the first test, I decided to try the drop again with all 8 chambers loaded. 




The bare tubes survived the first 2 drops, then on the 3rd drop (dropped sideways) 3 of the 2.5mm X 10mm tritium tubes broke.




In the 3rd test the chambers were loaded once again, this time all tritium tubes were padded with heat shrink tube. After 4 drops all of the 2.5mm X 10mm tubes survived. 

In conclusion I discovered that the smaller 2.5mm X 10mm tritium tube is much more shatter resistant than the 3mm X 11mm tube. However, even with a stronger tube I will still need to pad the ends to further protect them. I will be modifying the next sample flashlight based on these drop test results and sending it back to Gunga for verification.


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## gunga (Oct 31, 2015)

That's both awesome and scary expensive to test. Looking forward to getting the new sample.


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## monanza (Oct 31, 2015)

jashash, I am already pledged for the tritted Ti with clip. The 219 is also a must have (if you offer them) but I don't want to change my pledge so how do I go about securing one?


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## neutralwhite (Oct 31, 2015)

What o rings are on the front?.
flurosilicone?.
they would be a cool idea!.

thanks.


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## jashhash (Oct 31, 2015)

In these tests I'm using heat shrink tubing to pad the tritium vials, the final version will be a clear silicone, fluorosilicone would work just fine too I suppose. Correct me if I'm wrong but fluorosilicone has a more slippery texture than ordinary silicone? If that's the case they would be so much easier to install. Just to give you an idea the silicone end caps will be incredibly thin & tiny. 3.2mm diameter, 1.2mm tall and 0.35mm thick. I already found an injection molder here who an make the end caps. I will be going to the Machinists shop to make revisions this Monday, I hope the revisions won't take more than 1 week to complete. Also I'm working on getting a sample of a Nichia 219B LED right now, wish me luck.


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## neutralwhite (Oct 31, 2015)

Hi yes correct , those blue flurosilicone o rings Are slippery and would be good and make the light so better.


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## NoNotAgain (Oct 31, 2015)

jashhash said:


> In these tests I'm using heat shrink tubing to pad the tritium vials, the final version will be a clear silicone, fluorosilicone would work just fine too I suppose. Correct me if I'm wrong but fluorosilicone has a more slippery texture than ordinary silicone? If that's the case they would be so much easier to install. Just to give you an idea the silicone end caps will be incredibly thin & tiny. 3.2mm diameter, 1.2mm tall and 0.35mm thick. I already found an injection molder here who an make the end caps. I will be going to the Machinists shop to make revisions this Monday, I hope the revisions won't take more than 1 week to complete. Also I'm working on getting a sample of a Nichia 219B LED right now, wish me luck.



Joshua,

You need to get this light to market before I end up ordering more of them.

Fluorosilicone is a highly cross-linked silicone that has enhanced chemical resistant properties. It's available in various durometer hardness's. As for the lubricity, the release agent that the manufacturer uses on his mold accounts for the waxy texture. Conventional silicone's can also use the same release agents, but cost more. Fluorosilicone requires very elevated temperatures to cure and post cure unlike conventional silicone.


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## gunga (Oct 31, 2015)

The lens oring is very thin and barely noticeable. Using fluorosilicone would not do much since you can really see it. You'd have to redesign the head to fit a larger oring at the lens. I'm unsure that's worth the effort for a largely cosmetic difference. You can use Them for the body but again, I'm unsure if it's worth it. Jashhash, what are the blue O-rings made of? The one you are using on the body?


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## gunga (Oct 31, 2015)

Jashhash. See pm about 219 source.


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## rjking (Oct 31, 2015)

Ohhmm! Nichia 219? :thinking: I'm in.


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## jashhash (Nov 1, 2015)

The blue O-ring on the sample is silicone, not sure the exact formulation though it does have a somewhat slippery texture. Thanks Gunga, Got your PM about the 219B source. I have another lead on a 219B source too that I will likely go with. I'm pretty sure I can make a 219B option now, just give me some time to sort out all the details. I'm going to the machinist's shop tomorrow to have some samples modified with the changes mentioned above.


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## jashhash (Nov 3, 2015)

Hi Everyone,

I'm having 2 flashlight prototypes modified to the new version with removable tritium vials as we speak and they should be complete by Wednesday this week. Also I'm getting some samples of some 90cri 5000K 219B LEDs which I should receive in 1-2 weeks. While I won't have the 219B firefly version ready for review, I can have the bin mounted to a star so you can see how the tint looks.


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## neutralwhite (Nov 3, 2015)

Many thanks, now 5000 especially HCRI would be different.
You're moving ahead more than some of the custom flashlight makers which is really good. 
Look forward to seeing this colour tint. 





jashhash said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I'm having 2 flashlight prototypes modified to the new version with removable tritium vials as we speak and they should be complete by Wednesday this week. Also I'm getting some samples of some 90cri 5000K 219B LEDs which I should receive in 1-2 weeks. While I won't have the 219B firefly version ready for review, I can have the bin mounted to a star so you can see how the tint looks.


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## stephenk (Nov 6, 2015)

Any updates on the trits and tints?


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## RWT1405 (Nov 7, 2015)

Ah, 5000K. NOW I'm interested again!


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## vtbt (Nov 7, 2015)

If 5000k comes out I'm totally going to do a 2900k with red tritium and another in 5000k with blue tritium. Anyone else reminded of lightsabers with the tritium colors and tint options?


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## NoNotAgain (Nov 7, 2015)

A quick look at the Kickstarter status shows that the project is sitting with over $51k with 20 days of backing still remaining.

Anyone interested in getting one of these lights, needs to pony up and get onboard as I'm under the impression that once the funding goal has been reached, the special pricing for backers deal stops.

These are neat looking lights that scream, buy me all over them.


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## jashhash (Nov 8, 2015)

Hi Everyone,

Here is the machining update you have all been waiting for and I'm proud to announce the modification is a success.




These are the new parts as you can see. On the left is the brass retaining ring which holds the reflector/glass assembly together. On the right is the trimmed down copper slug with a new smaller pcb board. 




LED reflow soldered to copper slug.




This photo shows how the flashlight head will unscrew now. The 2.5mm X 10mm tritium tube slips in fine with the temporary shock dampeners. Please note that I will have to get the real injection mould made for the actual shock dampeners after the project is fully funded (I'm not investing in tooling for this part yet). Actually you can slip 3mm x 11mm if you grind down the threads in front of the slots but then you have a shelf queen (don't drop it). 




The business end




As you can see the light still fits together quite nicely. 




Here I did a little dunk testing to see how well the seals in the bezel hold up. So far it's held up to a 5 minute dunk. I will keep it submerged overnight to see if there are any slow leaks.


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## KuanR (Nov 8, 2015)

Great news! I will be using 3x11mm trits with mine. I'll just replace the vials if I managed to break any of them, though I do feel a little uncomfortable fling down the copper threads myself


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## neleus (Nov 8, 2015)

Good job, Josh. Then with Nichia 219 it may become legendary.

BTW What version is on the photo? Stainless steel?


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## akhyar (Nov 8, 2015)

Looking great Josh :thumbsup:


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## gunga (Nov 8, 2015)

Great job. Looking forward to seeing the next version.


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## Tixx (Nov 8, 2015)

Personally have no interest in trits (radio active anything especially near the junk is not appealing) but love the Nichia 219 you are considering! Thank you for doing this!


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## gunga (Nov 8, 2015)

Yep. I believe there will be a CPF edition specifically with Nichia 219.

The light will still look unique and cool with the stainless pins instead of trits.


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## Cyraph (Nov 10, 2015)

I'm very impressed by your effort.
It is a joy to watch your progress and optimization.

Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:


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## jashhash (Nov 10, 2015)

Hi everyone,

I have decided on doing a re-launch of the Kickstarter project and have decided this would be the best way for the following reasons:

1. Pleasing two groups of people:
What's been going on is I'm trying to please two crowds of people, members of CPF and also the Kickstarter community. From my Kickstarter dashboard page I can see about 30-40% of my backers are coming from CPF and the remainder is from Kickstarter. Now I've been getting a lot of private message comments from Kickstarter folks who would really prefer a brighter LED and of course we all know brightness comes at the cost of CRI. For the sake of the Kickstarter community I will be creating a version with a 6500K U3 bin XM-L2 LED. I have also been getting a lot of comments from the CPF community who would really prefer the 5000K Nichia 219B 90CRI option. I'm waiting for samples on this LED currently but this shouldn't be a problem. I will be sending Gunga a dummy light and reflector fitted with the 219B LED for him to review so he can comment on the tint of this reel sample. At the end of the kickstarter campaign I will be sending out a survey so you can choose which LED you prefer. So in summary I will be re-launching the firefly with a 6500K XM-L2 and 5000K Nichia 219B option.

2. Tritium tube change:
With the addition of silicone shock dampeners I will need to switch to a smaller 2.5mm X 10mm tritium vial. Because these are smaller vials I will reduce the price of the tritium option by $12. Also I will need to get new vials made since this size has limited stock available. This is a good thing though since your batch of tritium vials are brand new which will be brighter than vials that have already been on the shelf for 1-2 years. Initially I will be offering the firefly in both green and ice blue since I need to buy a minimum of 500 tubes to have a new batch made. As the campaign progresses I may introduce a 3rd color in this size if there are enough backers to meet another minimum order quantity. At the end of the campaign I will be sending out a survey so you can choose your tritium color.

3. Too many confusing pledge levels:
I've been getting comments that there are too many pledge levels and it's making it difficult for customers to decide what they want. For the sake of simplicity I'm going to drastically reduce all the options. First of all this campaign will be re launched with the titanium model only since it's by far the biggest seller. A black HA-III aluminum option will be launched in a later campaign after this one is completed. I'm taking out the s/s option since it hasn't been a real popular choice (though I personally like it). So these prototype samples are the only s/s that will ever be made. Also it appears that the clip is a really popular so I will not be offering the clip-less option anymore. More or less I'm inspired by this TED talk titled "The Paradox of Choice": https://goo.gl/CUFCyD .

Re-launch timeline:
I will be taking down the project this week and will be doing the re-launch around Nov 21-22. The re-launched campaign will run for a much shorter 14 days. Kickstarter campaigns receive half their funding in the first 3 days anyway so I don't see the reason for running such a long campaign. The funding goal will also be reduced to $25,000 since this is what's required to meet my minimum order for producing the titanium model. 

For those who got in on the early bird special:
I realize that it's unfair to my earlybird supporters to make them have to fight for their spot again. For their sake I will be emailing them the exact day and hour of the re-launched campaign. That way if you got on the earlybird campaign before, you are most certainly able to get it back again. 

I really don't like the idea of a re-launch but I think for these reasons it will be ideal.


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## Espionage Studio (Nov 10, 2015)

Since you're changing things you might as well drill a spot for one more tritium vial ;-)


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## jashhash (Nov 10, 2015)

He he nice try


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## Mr Floppy (Nov 10, 2015)

Damn, I would have gone the stainless steel. I prefer the weight, but don't know if I would have pledged


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## NoNotAgain (Nov 10, 2015)

Joshua,

You were within $7500 of your $60,000 goal with 16 days left. I'd rather see you complete this campaign.

I signed up to back all three material types and still would like to do so.

As for the tint of the LED, you stated up front that the light would be 2900 kelvin and be 90+CRI. I never saw the sample sent to Gunga for his critique other than the pictures posted. Gunga's comment of the orange glow or close to those words has me concerned that their might have been something wrong with the sample received.

I'd still like to purchase the stainless steel version or if you'd be willing to sell one of your samples, that would be great also. Lights that reside in my pants pockets get dinged and scratched and the stainless steel version would be easier to restore to a like new appearance.

Any how, get-er done.

A camel was a race horse designed by committee.


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## holygeez03 (Nov 10, 2015)

Interesting... I was considering a SS version with warm LED... at least my decision got easier.


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## DellSuperman (Nov 10, 2015)

Just saw the update & I gotta say that I am slightly disappointed.. I was backing the SS w/ trits & hoping to get another HA-AL. 

Now the SS version is taken out & the AL version has to wait. 

Nonetheless, i shall wait for the relaunch to see the options available again. 
I understand that its not an easy decision to make & you have definitely done a hell lot to make it work. 

Good luck Josh..


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## stephenk (Nov 10, 2015)

jashhash said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have decided on doing a re-launch of the Kickstarter project and have decided this would be the best way for the following reasons:
> 
> ...


Am I reading into this that there will be no 3000k (ish) high-CRI warm white version in the re-launch? The warm white LED was a reason why myself and probably a reasonable percentage of the others backed this light, as it is a rarity in other flashlights (in fact I can't find any other warm white high-CRI flashlight that can use NiMH or Alkalines). Lights with 6500k or 5000k Nichia are a dime the dozen. I await the answer, and I will not be re-backing it if there is no warm white option. 



> I've been getting comments that there are too many pledge levels and it's making it difficult for customers to decide what they want. For the sake of simplicity I'm going to drastically reduce all the options. First of all this campaign will be re launched with the titanium model only since it's by far the biggest seller. A black HA-III aluminum option will be launched in a later campaign after this one is completed. I'm taking out the s/s option since it hasn't been a real popular choice (though I personally like it). So these prototype samples are the only s/s that will ever be made. Also it appears that the clip is a really popular so I will not be offering the clip-less option anymore. More or less I'm inspired by this TED talk titled "The Paradox of Choice": https://goo.gl/CUFCyD .


As a backer of the black aluminium HA-III version (though I seem to be in the minority), I'm very disappointed that it has been dropped. The Ti model is double the cost and realistically out of my price range. I have been patiently following this project for many many months, only for the option I was looking forward to receiving in February being dropped. Is then any word on when you will get around to the black aluminium HA-III version (notably the delivery date)?

Looks like I might have to go back to P60 or Convoy options for a warm white light, which I would have purchased months ago if I had not followed this project.


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## gunga (Nov 10, 2015)

Unfortunately that seems to be the case. It was proving difficult to find a suitable warm white high cri XML2. The test LED was just not suitable. 

The aluminum version is definitely the most affordable and practical but it seems it did not meet the minimum order quantity. I'm disappointed that option was initially scrapped too but realistically, the project has to meet minimum orders to work. 

While relaunching is not a palatable option, I fully support it. It is up to the designer to ensure success of the project. That many options was just not sustainable. 

I realize that the warm option was what made the light unique but it is also a more niche option with less popular appeal (which, in some ways, is the point, I'm aware). 

If there was a suitable bin LED available, it may have gone forward. Unfortunately, the unavailability and the clamour from the other backers (from no-CPF folk) was for more lumens. 

A neutral tint was suggested, but cool white was chosen for max output. That is also the reason for the Nichia run. For better colour rendering.


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## stephenk (Nov 10, 2015)

gunga said:


> Unfortunately that seems to be the case. It was proving difficult to find a suitable warm white high cri XML2. The test LED was just not suitable.
> 
> The aluminum version is definitely the most affordable and practical but it seems it did not meet the minimum order quantity. I'm disappointed that option was initially scrapped too but realistically, the project has to meet minimum orders to work.
> 
> ...



Beam shots of the XML2 T4-7A in the Convoy S2+ seem to be agreeable, but as far as I'm aware this isn't a high-CRI emitter?
Looks like it'll be the P60 drop in route for me then. 

Very annoyed I've followed this light for months only for the options I was interested in (emitter and metal) to be dropped.


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## NoNotAgain (Nov 10, 2015)

Joshua,

I haven't seen any results from the HaroldB testing. What were the results or was the testing cancelled?


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## gunga (Nov 10, 2015)

stephenk said:


> Beam shots of the XML2 T4-7A in the Convoy S2+ seem to be agreeable, but as far as I'm aware this isn't a high-CRI emitter?
> Looks like it'll be the P60 drop in route for me then.
> 
> Very annoyed I've followed this light for months only for the options I was interested in (emitter and metal) to be dropped.



Yep. Not high cri. Warm tint is not too rare. Warm high cri is. 

I can understand. It might be different if this was a company with a line of lights. It's just one person trying to meet minimum order quantities and still offer a unique and innovative light. 

Your disappointment is understandable. It sounds like aluminum will be offered later but not high cri warm.


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## Harold_B (Nov 10, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> Joshua,
> 
> I haven't seen any results from the HaroldB testing. What were the results or was the testing cancelled?



Testing is ongoing but was delayed due to a death in the family. I had kept Josh in the loop and he has been more than understanding. I'm back to work and have collected data on color over angle from 0 to 40 degrees in five degree increments using an Ocean Optics spectrometer. It takes a bit to process the data. I also have beam shots at .1, .5, and 1 meter and I am processing that data. The correlation between the simulation and the measured data at one meter is less than the industry standard of >99% and the RMS value is greater than the acceptable 5%. I will track down the root cause later but I will get sphere measurements and write up a summary first.


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## NoNotAgain (Nov 10, 2015)

Harold_B said:


> Testing is ongoing but was delayed due to a death in the family. I had kept Josh in the loop and he has been more than understanding. I'm back to work and have collected data on color over angle from 0 to 40 degrees in five degree increments using an Ocean Optics spectrometer. It takes a bit to process the data. I also have beam shots at .1, .5, and 1 meter and I am processing that data. The correlation between the simulation and the measured data at one meter is less than the industry standard of >99% and the RMS value is greater than the acceptable 5%. I will track down the root cause later but I will get sphere measurements and write up a summary first.



Thank you sir. It had been a couple of weeks since the last update and didn't know if the testing was cancelled due to the color of the sample received by Gunga.

Harold, in your opinion, now that Joshua is looking at a higher powered emitter, are we also looking at a light that is going to go from flood to something with more throw? Wouldn't that also involve a new reflector design?


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## gunga (Nov 10, 2015)

Same LED family (XML2) = same die size and reflector = same beam shape. The Nichia will need a new reflector design though.


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## Harold_B (Nov 10, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> Thank you sir. It had been a couple of weeks since the last update and didn't know if the testing was cancelled due to the color of the sample received by Gunga.
> 
> Harold, in your opinion, now that Joshua is looking at a higher powered emitter, are we also looking at a light that is going to go from flood to something with more throw? Wouldn't that also involve a new reflector design?



It is a little unclear to me who beyond Josh is in a position to make any comments on the direction this project is taking but I am certain that I have no influence beyond the data made public on this thread. My contribution has been making equipment (although there has been a delay) and simulation and Ray trace capabilities available. An additional challenge for me is that I have been indulging in my hobby while trying to avoid placing any inconvenience on my business (partners). That said if Josh were to need a hand in modeling the next iteration I would be interested.


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## NoNotAgain (Nov 10, 2015)

Just received an email from Kickstarter that the Firefly light has officially been canceled. 

Guess we'll have to wait for the relaunch.

Creator Joshua Portinga about 1 hour ago
I realize that some folks really like the warm white high CRI option, though through my research it appears most people really prefer the neutral white high CRI of the Nichia 219B LED. I won't be offering the warm white high CRI version in the relaunch. I realize that 2900K is rarely found in flashlights these days but the main reason is the folks on CPF influenced the market away from that color towards the neutral 219B.
I'm offering the titanium model only in the relaunch since I was quite surprised that the titanium drastically outsold the aluminum model. My minimum order quantity for Aluminum is much larger than it is for titanium. I will launch the Aluminum model after the successfull completion of the titanium. My hope is that a lot of folks will like the titanium version so much that they will come back and buy the aluminum model as gifts or for every day carry.
Those who have an earlybird spot I will be emailing you about the exact day and hour of the re-launch so you have a chance of claiming your spot once again.


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## gunga (Nov 10, 2015)

Please note. Any comments i make are based on extensive discussion with jashhash.


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## jashhash (Nov 11, 2015)

Yes Harold is acting as my fact checker here on CPF to keep me accountable on my lumen output claims since we all know flashlight manufacturers lie on their claims. Also I have been talking with Gunga quite a bit on his impression with his sample and will be mailing him a revised sample today for him to look at. Gunga I expect you will receive the revised light in 5-6 days.


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## tab665 (Nov 11, 2015)

ive been following this thread since it started, although I had no plans to back this project this is still shocking news. I hope you the best and that these changes pay off in the end.


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## Mr Floppy (Nov 11, 2015)

gunga said:


> Yep. Not high cri. Warm tint is not too rare. Warm high cri is.



I guess there is always the option to swap out the led. I have done that with a few xml2 90+ cri 7C3. Yes the tint could be described as orange but that is the beauty of it. It has that incandescent glow and is truely warm. I have 3 left of these LEDs, so it's not just any old light that they will go into.

The ones who like warm and stainless steel, welcome to the minority.


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## neleus (Nov 11, 2015)

I've backed SS as well because of its durability... Although Ti is less durable and more expensive I'm still considering it. That's because of high quality circuit with balanced output levels and precise machining advertised. For me these two are most important. As for tint, I'm happy with 219B.
For those CPF members who want the 3000K it makes sense to offer some kind of DIY kit (as separate pledge for example) containing a set of PCBs or copper heads with presoldered 3000K LEDs or something like that. However I doubt it is possible due to the minority.


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## stephenk (Nov 12, 2015)

Now that it has been confirmed that the warm white emitter will not be used in the re-lauched product, I'm really quite annoyed. It seems that the dropping of the warm white emitter was made from just one review/opinion. Having followed this for many months, and backing it solely for the high-CRI warm white emitter (and I'm sure I'm not the only one - 280 people backed this when the spec was a warm white only) the unexpected change to "cookie cutter" emitters is big kick in the teeth to many of those backers. It turns what was a niche product into a something that is much less unique. 

I will not be backing the relaunched product, and nor will a few other light painters (who are equally peeved off) who I know, who also backed it for the warm white emitter. 

PS: I might calm down in a few days.


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## gunga (Nov 12, 2015)

Did you read the review? If so, you would have read the actual opinion. There is nothing wrong with warm white. Just THIS PARTICULAR warm white. Do you paint light with old incan light bulbs? 

Before you get mad about the choices made, read the review again.

Switching away from warm white was not done due to an opinion. There were no suitable high cri LEDS available. So, the decision was made to try to satisfy the max output crowd along with the high cri crowd. If there was a suitable bin of LED available (High cri, warm white XML2), it would have been used.

Edit : I forgot my response to your questions / statements before. 

"Stephenk, tint preference is completely subjective. That said, I can appreciate practically everything from 3000-5000K. This tint alters things too much. "


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## stephenk (Nov 12, 2015)

gunga said:


> Did you read the review? If so, you would have read the actual opinion. There is nothing wrong with warm white. Just THIS PARTICULAR warm white. Do you paint light with old incan light bulbs?



But again, this was just your (one persons) opinion that this tint was "wrong". From the limited beam shots, it looked fine to me, and probably looked fine to many other backers who will now not be able to get this option. 

I don't light paint with an incan as size/weight/battery power to lumens ratio is not justifiable. However, the warm incan tint is perfect.


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## holygeez03 (Nov 12, 2015)

I was definitely interested largely due to the warm emitter... if it had a momentary switch, I almost definitely would have backed it.


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## gunga (Nov 12, 2015)

stephenk said:


> But again, this was just your (one persons) opinion that this tint was "wrong". From the limited beam shots, it looked fine to me, and probably looked fine to many other backers who will now not be able to get this option.
> 
> I don't light paint with an incan as size/weight/battery power to lumens ratio is not justifiable. However, the warm incan tint is perfect.



Fair enough. Ultimately the decision lies with Jashhash. It was my opinion but not my decision.

I can agree, more beamshots were warranted. I do like warm white, I tried to like the tint, but everything was just so orange.


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## Espionage Studio (Nov 12, 2015)

I've seen a few "wrong" warm tints and they look terrible. I agree an incan-like warm tint can be nice but when "good tints gone bad" happens it's a sad scene. There's ugly yellow and ugly orange, super warm certainly doesn't make it "incan-like" I trust gungas opinion as I feel he is as knowledge as anyone out there. I suppose a guy could do an LED swap on one of these if they really wanted a warm tint?


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## holygeez03 (Nov 12, 2015)

I have a light with a very warm emitter... whenever I first turn it on inside my house, I am always surprised at how orange everything looks... but once my eyes adjust, and especially once I step outside, I re-appreciate the color temp... which is the only reason I still use the light.


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## mckeand13 (Nov 12, 2015)

I don't have the exact wording from the original post because it was deleted in an edit at some point. Josh basically said "it's going to be a HCRI warm LED because that's what I like and that's what I want to build". 

Apparently he has changed his mind which is a stark contrast to the plan conveyed initially and disappointing for quite a few people.

So much time and thought has gone into the details and many people have followed it carefully, only to have it changed repeatedly and ultimately pulled back. Compare this to the other Kickstarter light which is forging ahead nicely .


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## holygeez03 (Nov 12, 2015)

And of course it was "orange"... anything near 3000K is going to be:

http://flashlightwiki.com/images/c/cb/Ansi-white.jpg


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## gunga (Nov 12, 2015)

Sigh. Yep. I've tested many different tints from 2900-6500K. I have an idea of what works for most people (not all, most). 

I like a lot of the warm tints in high cri from 3000-3700K. I don't like this one. I've seen the colour chart. Some of my favourite warm tints are 7A/7B. 

I'm sure it's easy to form an opinion based on charts and numbers. I just couldn't accept this one in person. Just like people who like cool white. They like "clean" cool white, no gross green or nasty purple. I like "clean" warm white, with less excessive tint.


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## Roger Sully (Nov 12, 2015)

I finally made my decision and loved teh way the HA looked with the trits....disappointed that I'll have to wait that much longer. I've tried to like my titanium lights and even tried to EDC them but for some reason keep going back to HA.....:sigh: maybe I'll try a SS one. I absolutely love the clip on this one.


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## holygeez03 (Nov 12, 2015)

There will be NO SS version... I think?


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## gunga (Nov 12, 2015)

That is correct. There was not enough demand to meet the minimum order quantity in stainless steel.


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## snowlover91 (Nov 12, 2015)

stephenk said:


> But again, this was just your (one persons) opinion that this tint was "wrong". From the limited beam shots, it looked fine to me, and probably looked fine to many other backers who will now not be able to get this option.
> 
> I don't light paint with an incan as size/weight/battery power to lumens ratio is not justifiable. However, the warm incan tint is perfect.



I would trust gunga's opinion on this issue. He knows and has used warmer tints which are nice and it became quite apparent that the LED used in the initial sample would not be pleasing. It's not worth the risk to proceed with something that may disappoint due to a bad tint. Looking forward to seeing what the revised project will hold.


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## rickyro (Nov 13, 2015)

What concerns me most is the new design to make vials switchable. It makes the thread smaller, which makes me feeling the light is not so strong.

Tint aspect, I really like 219B, but I have quite a few lights with this LED. What attracted me with the original design was that low CCT high CRI choice, but it seemed not working so well as expected. And I think maybe that came from XM-L2, with generally has very bad tint. XP-G2 has much better tint in my experience. 

If the new light comes with XM-L2 (which I hate a lot, does not matter if it is high CCT or low CCT), or 219B (which I have around 4 models already, including HDS rotary 219B), then I really don't care so much the LED choice then. I really like something like what McGizmo is using with his XP-G2 version, that tint is very appealing even the claimed CRI is just around 80 or so.

And I never like the tritium vials, due to the fragility and the vulnerability feeling. I like the SS rods from the beginning since it reminds me the Gatlight design which I like so much. But I really dislike the new design with that thinner thread and the O-ring is at a very odd and concealed position so that the thread cannot be protected.

I think maybe finally I will not back the new design.


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## jashhash (Nov 13, 2015)

Hi Everyone,

Yes I realize there have been a lot of changes made to this project, some folks will likely be happy about the changes and some won't that's just the nature of things. While I do take Gunga's review in consideration, I ultimately made the decision to switch to the 219B after reading the discussion on this thread here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-4500k-92-CRI-which-one-do-you-prefer-and-why . It appears based on this thread that most people do prefer the light color of the neutral white of the 219B to the warm white of the XPG. The other option which is the XM-L2 6500K LED was chosen due to it's high efficiency since there are also quite a few members on Kickstarter who expressed an interest in a higher lumen output model.

As far as launching the campaign as just titanium: I was quite surprised that titanium made up 72% of my total dollars in sales. While I have enough backers to meet to meet my manufacturers minimum order quantity for titanium, I won't have enough at the end of the campaign for stainless steel or aluminum. If I continued with the current campaign that means I would be stocking hundreds of unsold lights of the S/S and Aluminum version which is not something I really want to do at this point. My plan now is to launch just the titanium version and then try for the Aluminum version, hopefully getting enough backers to make that one happen all on it's own in a later campaign. 

The next campaign will still have the stainless steel pin option so you can get the firefly without the tritium inserts if you are worried about them being too fragile. As far as the light being more fragile with the switchable tritium design, I have drop tested the new design from waist height on concrete and the smaller threads on the copper slug don't show any damage from the repeated impacts. The new head design is still plenty strong. 

Folks, I'm sorry if a lot of you are feeling frustrated. I understand that it sucks when I offer a product and then suddenly cancel things and switch it up on you. I also think there may be a silent majority of people who aren't speaking up right now but really do prefer this change in direction. I can't please everyone, it's simply an impossible task so in the end you will need to decide what's best for you.


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## monanza (Nov 13, 2015)

I am most looking forward to the double dip pledge. There is much to like about the light beyond the emitter. Besides, the redesigned pill seems easy enough to replace when a good bin of HiCRI warm whites comes along. Don't give up on jashhash yet.


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## vtbt (Nov 14, 2015)

Yeah - I definitely agree with monanza there: this light is way more than the tint of the led that makes this light great. Like, user replaceable tritium, for example. The emitter is hardly the only appeal of this light.


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## nimdabew (Nov 14, 2015)

The kick starter is right in the middle of my shift with no internet and no phone service. Grr.


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## NoNotAgain (Nov 14, 2015)

nimdabew said:


> The kick starter is right in the middle of my shift with no internet and no phone service. Grr.




The first Kickstart, didn't sell out of the ti light with trits and clip for a couple of days. The same for the ti light without trits. You should be OK to get in for a reduced backer price.


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## monanza (Nov 14, 2015)

Huh?! I must have missed the announcement, when is the new kickstart going live again?


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## NoNotAgain (Nov 14, 2015)

monanza said:


> Huh?! I must have missed the announcement, when is the new kickstart going live again?




http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Kickstarter&p=4774317&viewfull=1#post4774317


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## monanza (Nov 15, 2015)

Thanks a million, I read that post twice and still somehow skipped over the 11/21-11/22 relaunch.


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## jashhash (Nov 16, 2015)

Hi Everyone,
Just an update on what's going on right now before the next launch. Gunga's new sample has been sent to him in the mail and he will be receiving it in 1-2 days, so he can give you his impression on the revised sample hopefully before the next launch depending on how busy he is. Also I wanted to take a moment to discuss on how the lumens testing will be performed now since as you know Harold's test sample is using the now discontinued 2900K CREE XM-L2 emitter. For reporting lumen figures I will be using Harold's test results as a benchmark for comparison and doing some light box measurements here in my apartment at various drive currents to approximate the efficiency difference between his sample and the new Nichia and XM-L2 LEDs. These will be the new lumen figures that will be posted to the kickstarter campaign upon relaunch. Then assuming the campaign succeeds I will buy a partial reel of the Nichia and Cree LEDs for fulfilling orders and at the same time obtaining test results from the actual reels. This way you get the most accurate lumen output results while still remain confident that my reported figures are very close to actual results. I have been talking to Harold and he's having some difficulty with his equipment making an accurate measurement on the moonlight mode. Apparently it's difficult for his sensor equipment to measure this low of an output with accuracy. For discussion on CPF I will say the moonlight mode is somewhere between 0-1lm.


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## kreisl (Nov 20, 2015)

jashhash said:


> As far as launching the campaign as just titanium: I was quite surprised that titanium made up 72% of my total dollars in sales.



I looked up Kickstarter FAQ and couldn't find any clear info re this topic.

Funders paid ~52,000US$ with the hope of receiving the product. The project got cancelled by Kickstarter because minimum funding goal was not reached. Does it mean that the funders' money is now gone/lost, from the funders' perspective? 

Or which person does have all the money now?


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## DellSuperman (Nov 20, 2015)

kreisl said:


> I looked up Kickstarter FAQ and couldn't find any clear info re this topic.
> 
> Funders paid ~52,000US$ with the hope of receiving the product. The project got cancelled by Kickstarter because minimum funding goal was not reached. Does it mean that the funders' money is now gone/lost, from the funders' perspective?
> 
> Or which person does have all the money now?



It was cancelled by Joshua himself. 
And kickstarter doesn't take our money till funding is successful.


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## kreisl (Nov 20, 2015)

DellSuperman said:


> And kickstarter doesn't take our money till funding is successful.



Thanks, that sounds good. So nobody "lost" any money so far!
If i had tried to fund 180$ through my c-card, my c-card would not have been charged by now, i see.

My other Kickstarter involvement as backer has been a disaster so far though.


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## DellSuperman (Nov 20, 2015)

kreisl said:


> Thanks, that sounds good. So nobody "lost" any money so far!
> If i had tried to fund 180$ through my c-card, my c-card would not have been charged by now, i see.
> 
> My other Kickstarter involvement as backer has been a disaster so far though.



Of course! I don think we will be keeping quiet if our money is taken right? Haha..


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## gunga (Nov 20, 2015)

Evaluation of the second sample in progress. Very clever redesign to allow access to the trits. The LED also seems to be a touch warmer than expected. I'm guessing 5500-6000K, but am just guessing. It's much brighter. 

While I'm not a cool white fan, this is a pretty good option. I need to do more evaluation of course but the first impression is positive. 

My clip hardware is stripped so I am using an aftermarket clip just so I can Edc the light. This clip is not included or such. I just needed something for pocket carry. 
It's a ti nitecore clip with alternative hardware (2mm nuts and bolts).


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## jashhash (Nov 20, 2015)

Hi everyone,
Yes certainly nobody's credit card is charged if I cancel funding, that would be crazy if that were the case. As far as where I got those statistics I have a creator page on Kickstarter that only I can access. it's quite helpfully and I can see a whole lot of useful data such as where on the internet my funding is coming from, what pledge tiers receive the most funding, what countries backers are from, how many people viewed my campaign, etc... It's really a lot of useful statistics that's just available to the creator. 
I'm planning on doing the re-launch really soon on Monday the 23rd now, the exact hour of launch will be emailed to previous earlybird pledgers. I still don't have Harold_B's integrating sphere results but I can't wait too much longer. I'm sure his results won't be too far from my own.


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## jashhash (Nov 21, 2015)

The Nichia 219B samples arrived today as you can see in the below photo. I was expecting 5000K but looks like Henry sourced a reel of 4000K instead and also of the most efficient 220lm bin too. I installed one of the 219B samples in a dummy light and wow I'm impressed with the color. This is the closest to natural daylight that I've ever seen in any light source! Credit goes to Henry at Manker lights who helped source this reel. Also the LED is at the top in terms of both efficiency (220lm) and CRI (90). At 106lm/w (700mA) this LED will be outperforming the previously used warm white XML2 which is 82lm/w (700mA). All this with the added bonus of being 90 CRI. I'm sending the titanium dummy light on to Gunga tomorrow with the 219B installed for him to look at. The dummy light was produced by my flashlight machinist so he can comment on their machining quality when cutting titanium as well as the tint of the 219B.


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## monanza (Nov 21, 2015)

That sound promising. Looking forward to Monday. I missed the early bird last time by a hair (work can be such a distraction ) so I am camping out on KS (OK not really; all I care about is being able to pledge for two).


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## gunga (Nov 21, 2015)

That sounds like a grail LED to me. I look forward to evaluating it, as well as the ti body.


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## mgk65 (Nov 22, 2015)

Hey josh:

Is there any way you can work a 1/4"-20 threaded hole into the clip? It could serve as a mount point for a mini tripod like this one:

http://joby.com/gorillapod/gpod-mini-magnetic

pic:
http://joby.com/media/catalog/produ...d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/G/P/GP05-Product-Hero.jpg


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## kreisl (Nov 22, 2015)

mgk65 said:


> Hey josh:
> 
> Is there any way you can work a 1/4"-20 threaded hole into the clip? It could serve as a mount point for a mini tripod like this one:
> 
> ...



+ 1

Great idea. I have the GorillaPod Magnetic already. Afaik it is an original US-designed product.

I hardly use it though because none of my pocket clips have a threaded hole :mecry:


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## NoNotAgain (Nov 22, 2015)

kreisl said:


> + 1
> 
> Great idea. I have the GorillaPod Magnetic already. Afaik it is an original US-designed product.
> 
> I hardly use it though because none of my pocket clips have a threaded hole :mecry:



The slot in the clip looks large enough that you could take a piece of stock and cut it to width, then drill and tap, and place it behind the clip to use on the tripod.

The present clip has a very clean design that I wouldn't want to see changed. Joshua is the designer and any changes in features are up to him.


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## jashhash (Nov 23, 2015)

Hi Y'all,

The campaign is scheduled for re-launch this Monday the 23rd. For those of you who got in on the early bird special I've sent an email with the exact time of the re-launch so you have the best chance of re-claiming your spot. The re-launch will feature the following changes below:

1. Tritium vials are now removable
2. There are now 2 LED options to choose from
3. This campaign will be in titanium only
4. Brightness level #2 was reduced from 30lm to 15lm


Regarding the addition of holes, I won't be adding a threaded hole for tripod mounting to the clip for aesthetics reasons.


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## phosphor22 (Nov 23, 2015)

HI Josh - looking forward to this newly reconfigured light. Will you be sending/posting a Kickstarter link or will the old Kickstarter site for the previous Firefly flashlight campaign disappear and be reconfigured with the new campaign?


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## jashhash (Nov 23, 2015)

HI Phosphor 22,
Here is a link to the new campaign: http://kck.st/1Nn4CvJ It's not live yet, but once it is you can use it to place your order.


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## Espionage Studio (Nov 23, 2015)

The campaign is live! 77 backers so far and counting :twothumbs


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## NoNotAgain (Nov 23, 2015)

Espionage Studio said:


> The campaign is live! 6 backers so far and counting :twothumbs



Message I received indicated launch was going live 12:00 Eastern time. I'm in for a couple like before.


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## BugoutBoys (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Absolutely love the tritium.. I wish flashlights with tritium on them weren't so expensive :mecry:


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## gunga (Nov 23, 2015)

The tritium itself is very costly. I think each vial is around $11 each. So $88 is just tritium cost.


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## Espionage Studio (Nov 23, 2015)

Question of the day for Jashhash, are the holes milled for the tritium still the same size as the original? I would like to source my own tritium vials at a later time and put the original bigger size vials in if possible even though they are fragile w/o the bumper pieces installed.


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## gunga (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

My test sample has the same size holes. It is likely they will be the same size because the smaller trits have cushioning caps around the ends. It is very likely you will be able to fit the original 3x11mm trits. Just be careful handling the light since the trits are fragile.


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## Espionage Studio (Nov 23, 2015)

Thanks gunga! So that's what I suspected I was hoping the holes were still the same. Admittedly most of my lights don't stray far from the desk unfortunately, or the bedside table. I'm just hoping to get 3x11 size someday when I can afford it.


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## gunga (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Just don't drop it!


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## Espionage Studio (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

I should knock on wood but I haven't dropped a flashlight since 2007 when I dropped my first couple Surefires. The more expensive the light, the more of a death grip I have on them haha!


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## gunga (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Ha! I understand. Perhaps Jashhash can sell cap kits for smaller trits. Unless you prefer the original size.


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## Espionage Studio (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

If I'm not mistaken the model with the steel inserts will have the caps installed on the steel rods which will be nice just in case I decide to go with the smaller sized vials. I think I do prefer the larger sized vials however so I'm happy to have options


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## gunga (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

I have not heard that but Jashhash can confirm.


----------



## Thetasigma (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Does anyone know if the lumen ratings are with a 14500 cell, eneloop, or alkaline?


----------



## NoNotAgain (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*



Thetasigma said:


> Does anyone know if the lumen ratings are with a 14500 cell, eneloop, or alkaline?



Can't find the exact quote right now, but I believe the numbers were based on 14500 lithium cell. Found it! Joshua used a Superfire 14500.https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/00...?v=1448293892&w=680&fit=max&auto=format&q=92&


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## gunga (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

See my review also. Note that these will change because a different LED is being used.


----------



## Lantern32 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Looks good but 650 lumens could be easily improved upon with the new cree leds


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## NoNotAgain (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Next backer makes the $25k goal.


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## holygeez03 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

650 lumens is a great output... it's about the same as the high level coming from my SC62w and I never need more for general use... but it's too bad one needs to choose between the 650lm and the nice temp/tint/CRI. I know there are XM-L2's with very nice temp/tints... I would strongly consider a semi-custom EDC light that could output ~600 lumens, with good mode spacing, and a beautiful temp/tint/CRI.


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## gunga (Nov 23, 2015)

The max output is undetermined with Nichia 219B at the moment. When I get a look at it I'll estimate the outputs. The current version has pretty good mode spacing but the final version will be adjusted to be more visually linear (ie reducing the second level). 

The goal is not necessarily for max output at all costs. Those seeking an AA blow torch may be somewhat disappointed. 


Wow, around 1/2 day to meet the funding goal. 

I'm liking the second prototype (stainless /XML2) and am looking forward to seeing the ti/219B model. This should be excellent when final production starts. 

Note. After drop testing, no damage, no broken trits.


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## jashhash (Nov 23, 2015)

Good Morning everyone.
(at least it's morning here in China)

Thanks for the support on round #2 of the Firefly launch I think it's safe to say the project is officially launched after 11 hours of being live. I'm going to the electronics district in Shenzhen to get started on the silicone caps today. Also I wanted to clarify that if you order the flashlight without the tritium, I will be including the silicone pads with that model as well so you can buy your own tritium vials later. I'm getting the vials made through Daniel at mixglo.com so if you want to he will have stock of the 2.5mm X10mm vial if you would like to buy them later. Also if you want to you can buy 3mm X 11mm vials and insert those instead... Just don't drop the light if this is what you decide to do.


----------



## RUSH FAN (Nov 24, 2015)

I just backed your kickstarter, for the basic light.
However , I didn't receive any kind of confirmation of backing your project.
This is my first time in backing a kickstarter project.
Do you show me as one of the backers?


----------



## curby (Nov 24, 2015)

Hi, just wondering, is there any risk of wearing down the copper threads of the heatsink? How often does the head need to be unscrewed (does the battery get inserted at the head or the tail)? During the tritium drop tests, did the head get knocked off-center, or loosen, etc.? Just looking/hoping for long-term durability and reliability in all the mating surfaces. Thanks!


----------



## gunga (Nov 24, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

During drop tests, nothing got loosened or knocked off. I would not recommend hurling the light at a brick wall or anything. If you are worried about ultimate durability, skip the tritium. 

The battery is changed by unscrewing the head. The head threads will be titanium (nice square machined threads). My sample is stainless steel. 

The copper threads are only used if you access the trits. They are not used in normal operation.


----------



## jashhash (Nov 24, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Hi Rush,
I haven't received your pledge yet, maybe your computer spazed out on you. Don't worry you can only pledge once so if you hit the "pledge" button twice nothing will come of it. 

Hi Curby:
I did drop testing here on my end as has Gunga and the copper threads haven't suffered any sort of deformity from that. I would't worry about wearing down the copper since you really don't need to unscrew that part unless you want to swap out the tritium vials. The battery tube unscrews from the finned portion, both of which are made of titanium. These threads were square cut to minimize wear when changing batteries. Pretty much what Gunga already said. I'm not saying this light can't be damaged, any nice thing you own no matter how well made should still be cared for properly to ensure long life. The only parts that may wear out on you with regular use are the switch, o-rings, and rubber boot, and maybe the UCL lens, I'm sending spares of all of these parts.


----------



## Cyraph (Nov 24, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Congratulations Josh! Everything is looking so fine right now!
I'm glad I've found your project.


----------



## curby (Nov 24, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Thanks for the info, folks. I had already pledged when I posted that; I was just looking for some reassurance. Good luck with the rest of the campaign!


----------



## jashhash (Nov 27, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Happy thanksgiving bump


----------



## gunga (Nov 28, 2015)

Happy Turkey Day! A small note, a light with the sample LED arrived. 4000K Nichia 219B. Wow. Very impressive. This is my new favourite tint. It makes my 5000K Nichia 219B (a very nice LED in its own right) look sickly and green. I even like it better than my defacto standard Nichia 219A, I'm that impressed.


----------



## monanza (Nov 28, 2015)

Looking forward to your impressions. The 4kK tint is awesome.


----------



## jashhash (Nov 29, 2015)

Yea,
I was impressed by the Nichia bin too. I compare it to the previously used XML2 and it's just way nicer looking.


----------



## jon_slider (Nov 29, 2015)

gunga said:


> … 4000K Nichia 219B. Wow. Very impressive. This is my new favourite tint. It makes my 5000K Nichia 219B (a very nice LED in its own right) look sickly and green. I even like it better than my defacto standard Nichia 219A, I'm that impressed.



can you post a beamshot showing the tint of the 219a (iirc they are 4500k), compared to a 5000k N219b, and the 4000k N219b? Please take the beam shots in a single multi light picture, so relative tint is obvious. 

Something along the lines of this shot, taken by folding a white piece of paper in half, or however you like to do it:


----------



## gunga (Nov 29, 2015)

Sure Jon. I'll put something like this in the review of the second proto. The tint is warmer and more pink than the others. While I prefer this, it is not for everyone since it's all completely subjective.


----------



## jon_slider (Nov 29, 2015)

gunga said:


> The tint is warmer and more pink than the others. While I prefer this, it is not for everyone since it's all completely subjective.


I agree peoples preferences and needs vary.

I prefer being able to see reds when looking at my hand, so for that application I prefer warmer tints (actually I prefer high CRI, which sometimes also means warm)









I prefer a brighter light when looking under my car, especially with ambient daylight, even if its Cool White, and has low CRI.









I look forward to your excellent color corrected photos of the various LEDs being tested for the Firefly.


----------



## Harold_B (Nov 30, 2015)

_*Please note that this for the first iteration prototype.*_

First apologies to everyone waiting for test data and thanks to Josh for the understanding given unfortunate circumstances. Another complication has been getting robust data from our integrating sphere(s) given the range of the output settings. That last issue (the range of output) created an issue for the lab where I took the prototype for confirmation as well and we both ended up leaving the lowest setting out of the data set. A quick overview as compared to the specifications as I had them recorded (specification/data):
Moon: 1.8 lm / n/a
Mode 1: 19 lm / 9.5 lm
Mode 2: 76 lm / 31.1 lm
Mode 3: 276 lm / 124.6 lm

These outputs were significantly lower than anticipated but were verified at two separate labs. Both labs use Ocean Optics spectrometers with Labsphere integrating spheres. Calibration is maintained using NIST certified bulbs.

Just to be certain the data is inline with what would be expected the projected beam was measured using a AsenseTEK portable spectrometer at one meter in a darkened room with black walls. The optical system consisting of the reflector model as supplied by Josh, the XM-L file(s) supplied by CREE, and standard surface and material library files from the OptisWorks 2015 ray trace software library was simulated and the results compared to the measured data. In order for the simulated lx to approximate the measured lx at one meter the output for each simulation needed to be within 1.5-8.5% of the measured output.

The data table summary from the integrating sphere:

 Parameter
  Level 2​  Level 3​  Level 4​  Radiant Flux (Watts)
  0.03​  0.11​  0.43​  Luminous Flux (lumens)
  9.49​  31.14​  124.60​  Scotopic Luminous Flux (lm')
  13.90​  45.59​  181.80​  Chromaticity x coord
  0.4427​  0.4423​  0.4412​  Chromaticity y coord
  0.403​  0.4032​  0.4036​  Chromaticity u coord
  0.2548​  0.2544​  0.2535​  Chromaticity v coord
  0.3479​  0.3479​  0.3479​  Delta uv
  0.0016​  0.0014​  0.0011​  Chromaticity u' coord
  0.2548​  0.2544​  0.2535​  Chromaticity v' coord
  0.5218​  0.5219​  0.5218​  Peak Wavelength (nm)
  620.3​  621​  618.8​  Center Wavelength (nm)
  604.9​  604.4​  603.2​  Centroid Wavelength (nm)
  593.7​  593.6​  593​  Dominant Wavelength (nm)
  583.7​  583.6​  583.4​  Full Width Half Max Bandwidth (nm)
  146​  147.2​  148.7​  Excitation Purity (%)
  53.8​  53.8​  53.6​  Correlated Color Temperature (deg. K)
  2894​  2903​  2924​  Luminous Efficacy (lm/W)
  SDCM
   Cool White​   Cool White​   Cool White​  Correlation
  0.0054​  0.0054​  0.0054​  Correlation Coeficient
  0.001186194​  0.001034541​  0.000765223​  Color Rendering Index Average (RA)
  91​  91​  91​  Color Rendering Index (R1)
  96​  96​  95​  Color Rendering Index (R2)
  97​  97​  98​  Color Rendering Index (R3)
  92​  93​  94​  Color Rendering Index (R4)
  89​  89​  89​  Color Rendering Index (R5)
  94​  94​  94​  Color Rendering Index (R6)
  93​  93​  95​  Color Rendering Index (R7)
  86​  87​  87​  Color Rendering Index (R8)
  80​  80​  79​  Color Rendering Index (R9)
  64​  63​  60​  Color Rendering Index (R10)
  96​  96​  99​  Color Rendering Index (R11)
  91​  91​  90​  Color Rendering Index (R12)
  79​  79​  80​  Color Rendering Index (R13)
  99​  99​  97​  Color Rendering Index (R14)
  97​  97​  98​


----------



## gunga (Nov 30, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

What battery type is this Harold?


----------



## Harold_B (Nov 30, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Alkaline. New fresh from the package. Thanks for the follow-up Gunga that should have been included in the summary.


----------



## gunga (Nov 30, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Wow. Lower than expected.


----------



## holygeez03 (Nov 30, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

It seems like the prototypes might have contained a bad lot of LED emitters... considering the reports of terrible beam temp/tint quality and lower than expected output... 

And/or the light does not perform well with alkaline... but who would use that in an expensive, semi-custom light?

Isn't all of that pretty much void at this point considering the two new emitter types?


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## gunga (Nov 30, 2015)

Yes. It is void. It is a data point though to check expected vs measured and estimated output. That said, it does not apply for the final version.

Alkaline levels should be similar to nimh at lower levels. The max measured level may be reduced depending on how quickly the output sags with alkaline.


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## Harold_B (Nov 30, 2015)

Make of it what you will as far as how applicable the data is to the latest version. I will say that it is very rare to receive defective or non-conforming LED emitters from a manufacturer like CREE. If anything it is very possible to damage the emitter in assembly especially since these are hand placed. I would expect to see discolored or lifted solder pads and on the contrary the workmanship looks excellent. The LED output surface looks undamaged as does the phosphor layer. There does not seem to be a significant amount of color separation over the viewing axis for the LED without the reflector which is another indication the LED is not damaged. The anticipated output of the new LEDs will depend on how much of the legacy design is carried over into the next iteration and identifying the root cause of the lower than expected output measurements.

Regarding the tint and the possibility this attribute could be an indication of a defective LED; the bare LED (reflector and cover glass removed) measures ~3000K in an integrating sphere which is correct for this LED. For the flashlight the color is fairly uniform ranging from ~2750K at zero degrees (the spot center) to ~4000K at the edge of the spot (~35 degrees off center) at one meter.


For reference, these posts are the first Josh is seeing the data. This is so that there is no perception that the data has been influenced. I am also trying to avoid making comments about the quality or operation of the interface, etc.


----------



## gunga (Nov 30, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

That is great info Harold. I am not suggesting a defective LED. I am unsure of the exact flux bin. We could just be at the bottom end of a broad bin and there could be higher losses OTF than originally anticipated.


----------



## jashhash (Dec 1, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

These are interesting results. I had estimated the light output here using my light meter so I trust your numbers are accurate. Seeing your results I think it may be more accurate if I base my lumen output results by measuring the drive current than using my home brew light box. You can see my test rig below which is just the firefly flashlight connected to my multi meter. By measuring the amperage draw at each setting I'm able to more accurately predict the light output. In this test I discovered there is a big difference between the output when using an alkaline battery vs a NiMh battery also. As you can see the alkaline battery is not able to support as much current load on turbo. I measured the voltage sag under load of the alkaline at .76v when under load. As you can see these calculated results are not far off Harold's actual measurements when using an alkaline battery:

Moon: 1.8 lm (my light meter/box) | n/a (actual lab measurement) | 0.4 lm (calculated)
Mode 1: 19 lm (my light meter/box) | 9.5 lm (actual lab measurement) | 8.6 lm (calculated)
Mode 2: 76 lm (my light meter/box) | 31.1 lm (actual lab measurement) | 25.1 lm (calculated)
Mode 3: 276 lm (my light meter/box) | 124.6 lm (actual lab measurement) | 110.6 lm (calculated)






Here is the test rig. Here I have the current supplied to the LED going through my multimeter. I think there may be some extra resistance from the current passing through the multimeter that may throw off my results a bit. When I toggle between amperage resolutions I can see the LED brightness change which is throwing off my results a bit. I'm going to need a better multi meter with lower resistance to improve the accuracy of these results.




Here are my calculated results based on the S5 Bin XML2 that was previously used and the LED that Harold is measuring.




Here are my calculated results based on the 220LM bin of the Nichia 219B of which Manker bought the reel. To get these light output levels I changed the efficiency lm/w field based on the Nichia 219B datasheet. 




Here are my calculated results based on a U3 bin XM-L2 LED.


----------



## stephenk (Dec 1, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*



holygeez03 said:


> It seems like the prototypes might have contained a bad lot of LED emitters... considering the reports of terrible beam temp/tint quality and lower than expected output...


It is a bit of shame if the 3000k tint was dropped due to the examples used for testing possibly being faulty/bad emitters? (Unless of course if the batch used in the final product would also have been "faulty").


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## holygeez03 (Dec 1, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*



stephenk said:


> It is a bit of shame if the 3000k tint was dropped due to the examples used for testing possibly being faulty/bad emitters? (Unless of course if the batch used in the final product would also have been "faulty").




"Faulty" was probably the wrong word choice... What I meant was just a copy at the lower end of the quality tolerance range...


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## Mr Floppy (Dec 1, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*



stephenk said:


> It is a bit of shame if the 3000k tint was dropped due to the examples used for testing possibly being faulty/bad emitters? (Unless of course if the batch used in the final product would also have been "faulty").



Nah mate, I think people aren't used to the cct. 
Here's a high CRI xml2, roughly 2900K in a modded Malkoff drop in for mags 
http://s27.postimg.org/fmfvejnpv/11beamshot.jpg

That particular shot was driven at over 1.5A. Any less and it looks less bright and seems even more orange.

I was disappointed when the decision was made to go nichia, but I totally understand how much more of a niche market a warm light is going to be.


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## Harold_B (Dec 1, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

I'm relieved to see some correlation in our data Josh. I had measured, recalibrated, measured, repeat, several times on two spheres plus repeated measurements using the portable spectrometer before taking it to a separate lab. It is very important to me to report accurate results even if it takes extra time. 

There is nothing wrong technically with the emitter in the prototype sample I have at hand and based on the subjective evaluations posted I have no reason to believe it is different in any way from the other initial build units. The preference for a cooler CCT is a personal one. If you refer to the test data chart the CRI average is 91 and the individual R values don't drop below 80 until the R8 value and above. Not bad for a large emitter with a dome and giving consideration that the XM-L has never been exceptional in color over viewing axis performance. Looking at the spec sheet for the output bin there's only a 28lm difference between the S5 and T2 Group at 700mA.


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## stephenk (Dec 1, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*



Mr Floppy said:


> Nah mate, I think people aren't used to the cct.
> Here's a high CRI xml2, roughly 2900K in a modded Malkoff drop in for mags
> http://s27.postimg.org/fmfvejnpv/11beamshot.jpg
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info. Anyway, after the warm white was dropped from this project I've since bought myself a Seraph SP-6 with XPG2 drop in, and it has a beautiful warm tint.


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## Harold_B (Dec 1, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Another consideration when you do the next spin on the LED MCPCB is to include a trace / pad for connecting a thermal probe for measuring the junction temperature. Using an infrared Solutions IR FlexCam Pro I grabbed a quick image of the MCPCBA while running in turbo mode. The temperature looks well within the XM-L2 operating limits and below the level where the output would begin to sag but a thermal imaging camera isn't the proper way to get good junction temperature readings. But for reference:


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## jashhash (Dec 2, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Hi Harold,
I agree there is nothing wrong with that warm white XM-L2 emitter, it's just operating according to it's design spec. The high CRI XM-L2 is particularly inefficient, that combined with the high internal resistance of an alkaline cell makes for a real dim test result. I'm really glad to have switched over to the 219B LED now, brighter, not so yellow, and just a beautiful daylight color. I can see now how Nichia totally dominates the high CRI market now. 

As far as thermal probe goes you can attach the thermal probe in the half circle slot right next to the LED solder pad. That should give you the most direct temperature reading. I agree that IR camera readings are not the most accurate when imaging surfaces with a low emissivity. I used to take temperature readings like this all the time when I worked at a company that makes LED street lights. I totally banned the IR temperature gun from the design department after finding out how inaccurate it is on glossy metallic surfaces. To my chagrin the sales people still borrowed the IR temperature gun all the time for taking temperature readings when talking to clients. I think your temperature readings with the IR camera shouldn't be too far off actual though when you take the reading off the silicone shoulder of the LED which has a fairly high emissivity value. In your image you can see the polished S/S surface of the flashlight appears blue around 25 C which can't be correct though. This is because the polished S/S body has an emissvity value of 0.10 so will not emit much IR heat for your camera's sensor to detect.


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## Harold_B (Dec 2, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

I'll take a crack at attaching a probe in the slot although that might be a challenge. I was curious about the running temp at the emitter since the output numbers were not as expected and the CCT looks warmer than expected. Both would be an indicator that the LED is getting hot (reference the XM-L2 spec sheet for output over temperature and delta x/ delta y over temperature) but I'm not thinking either is an issue.

I could improve the accuracy of the IR camera data for the flashlight body if I wanted to paint everything flat black. Nope!


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## gunga (Dec 4, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

The review of the Firefly second prototype is found here:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...pe-Review-(Firefly-2-0)&p=4791190#post4791190

Please note that it is not considered complete. I will be adding tint comparison pictures and a beamshot to the review as well as some output estimates. Sorry for the delay. I just wanted to publish some thoughts.

Summary: Very good update, final version will be even better!


----------



## guiri (Dec 5, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Can someone tell me how much the estimated price will be (with green trits) when they do sell?

Thanks

George


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## neleus (Dec 5, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Congrats! The Firefly has been funded! :twothumbs


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## jashhash (Dec 5, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Thanks everyone,
With your help and the help the firefly project has been launched. As far as post-kickstarter sales I'm not exactly sure yet, I need to get through the whole process of production before I can determine that. There's a lot of hidden production costs that I likely haven't accounted for yet. There always are these things when developing and launching a new project.


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## Coltrane (Dec 5, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Just saw that the project was put up on Kickstarter again and the project has been finished.

Really disappointed that I could get not on this...


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## guiri (Dec 5, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*



jashhash said:


> Thanks everyone,
> With your help and the help the firefly project has been launched. As far as post-kickstarter sales I'm not exactly sure yet, I need to get through the whole process of production before I can determine that. There's a lot of hidden production costs that I likely haven't accounted for yet. There always are these things when developing and launching a new project.



Ballpark? 100, 300, ...?

Nice looking light though. Good job


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## Harold_B (Dec 5, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Congratulations on a successful KS campaign Josh.


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## gunga (Dec 5, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Yes congrats Jashhash! It would be nice to keep making the firefly after kickstarter. Wonder if it is practical to do so? Or is it better to focus on the aluminum run?


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## jon_slider (Dec 5, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*



guiri said:


> Can someone tell me how much the estimated price will be (with green trits) when they do sell



click the kickstarter link on page 1



Coltrane said:


> Really disappointed that I could get not on this...



I think you still can


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## Coltrane (Dec 5, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Nope. Project locked.


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## jon_slider (Dec 5, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*



Coltrane said:


> Nope. Project locked.


my mistake
I was going by the text on the kickstarter page that says
*Limited (5 left of 50)*


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## NoNotAgain (Dec 5, 2015)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*



Coltrane said:


> Nope. Project locked.


I'm sure that there will be lights available after the Kickstart rewards are issued. 

By my count, the KS campaign needed about 180 lights. This does not include lights purchased by people backing more than one light. With machining minimums, I say 250 pieces in titanium are going to be built. 

If Josh proceeds with the aluminum version, most of the hard work is done as other than the shell, the rest is complete. The first batch of lights will give him a good idea on the assembly time and a better idea on what his costs are going to be.


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## gunga (Dec 12, 2015)

Well, I have posted a beam shot, beam profile, and some tint comparison shots in the second proto review.

I attempted to replicate beam characteristics and intensity as much as possible but was only somewhat successful. The difference in Nichia tints are very subtle and hard to see in photos, so I'm afraid the comparison is less useful than I had anticipated.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...Firefly-Second-Prototype-Review-(Firefly-2-0)


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## jashhash (Jan 22, 2016)

Hi Everyone,
Its been a long time since I've updated this thread so I just wanted to let you all know what's going on with the kickstarter project. So as you know the Kickstarter project was successfully funded and now I'm in the process of producing an initial batch of 300pc. This will cover the orders placed in the kickstarter campaign plus a few extra for sale. Right now the machinist is machining each titanium piece one at a time and right now is just finishing up the body tube. I've made a slight change to the tail fin of the body tube design of the titanium production model vs the stainless steel prototype as you can see in the photo below. Also I'm working on changing the switch boot to titanium as well if the waterproofing seals work as planned.








Here is the internal silicone water proofing seal.


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## jashhash (Jan 22, 2016)

Hi Everyone,
Its been a long time since I've updated this thread so I just wanted to let you all know what's going on with the kickstarter project. So as you know the Kickstarter project was successfully funded and now I'm in the process of producing an initial batch of 300pc. This will cover the orders placed in the kickstarter campaign plus a few extra for sale. Right now the machinist is machining each titanium piece one at a time and right now is just finishing up the body tube. I've made a slight change to the tail fin of the body tube design of the titanium production model vs the stainless steel prototype as you can see in the photo below. Also I'm working on changing the switch boot to titanium as well if the waterproofing seals work as planned.








Here is the internal silicone water proofing seal.


----------



## gunga (Jan 29, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Nice update. I'm anxious to see the end product. Note that thrunite t10 series with the metal clicky and sunwayman v10r etc with metal clickies are waterproof. Worth checking out. Also the BTU brass lights (AA and 18650) have waterproof metal switches.


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## kreisl (Feb 3, 2016)

jashhash said:


> Also I'm working on changing the switch boot to titanium as well if the waterproofing seals work as planned.
> .



i love titanium switch boots. sometimes the boot would tilt a bit and then grind or bind if not pressed central but after chamfering it is no problem anymore,see for example


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## NoNotAgain (Mar 7, 2016)

Received a message from Kickstarter that the machining for the Firefly light components is complete. 
They're awaiting the drivers and tritium vials, so it's getting close to delivery.


----------



## Wolfy1776 (Apr 16, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

When do you expect to have these available for sale?


----------



## NoNotAgain (Apr 16, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Last update indicated that the supplied production drivers weren't up to par. They're being remade and lights should ship the end of the month.


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## Wolfy1776 (Apr 19, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

I was inquiring about any extras after fulfilling the kick starter orders.


----------



## NoNotAgain (Apr 19, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*



Wolfy1776 said:


> I was inquiring about any extras after fulfilling the kick starter orders.



I'd suggest PM'ing Joshua about the availability of lights he had to have built to meet the manufacturers minimum machining requirements.

If I recall, he had to have 300 units made. There were 164 backers not including people like me that purchased more than one light.


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## KuanR (Apr 19, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

I talked to Josh and there are some extra lights he plans to sell on CPF


----------



## Cyraph (May 11, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

According to the latest Kickstarter-update, the first fireflys will be shipped in a few days!
Pleasant anticipation!!


----------



## gunga (May 11, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Looking forward to it!


----------



## NoNotAgain (May 11, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Joshua sent messages this evening to verify your address as the lights are going to start shipping in the next day or two. 

I've got a few Efest 14500's charged as well as some Eneloops. 

Looks like I'm going to have two new lights to play with, soon!


----------



## NoNotAgain (May 27, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

There was a posting on the Kick Starter page on May 11th indicating that lights were to start shipping. Joshua indicated they were using China ePost, so I'm not sure what to expect. My eBay dealings with Chinese vendors have been delivered within a week of order.

Has anyone in the US or Canada received there Fire Fly light as of yet?


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## akhyar (May 27, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*



NoNotAgain said:


> Has anyone in the US or Canada received there Fire Fly light as of yet?



I've seen a member of Flashlight Fanatics group at Facebook posted some photos of his new Firefly earlier this week.
His doesn't come with the trits on the head, but he installed his own


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## KuanR (May 28, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

I received my 2 lights last week, but I'm from Macau so it's a much shorter trip for the lights to travel


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## gunga (May 30, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Can we get some pix of the end product?


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## rickyro (Jun 1, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

How can I buy now?


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## nfetterly (Jun 1, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Sounds like mine arrived yesterday, but I'm 300 miles away in Port Huron MI.


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## NoNotAgain (Jun 3, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Another week goes by without the FireFly.

At this point, I'm not sure if they go caught up due to China Post, US Customs, or USPS. 

I'd of thought that a package of this value might have shipped other than a non trackable carrier.


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## Chrispy (Jun 4, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Pleased to say that mine arrived in the UK on Wednesday. 
Haven't done more than a quick cycle through the modes, but it looks and feels great- hope to check it out more thoroughly tonight.


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## Chrispy (Jun 4, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Hope these come out ok - hastily taken on my phone in my hotel room...


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## KuanR (Jun 4, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*


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## gunga (Jun 4, 2016)

Nice. So, what do you guys think?


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## NoNotAgain (Jun 6, 2016)

I’ve been not so patiently waiting since receiving notice via Kick Starter that the Firefly lights were shipping. Well Saturday was my day to receive my lights, or so I thought so. My USPS man dropped off one rather mangled box. Between China Post and USPS, the box was majorly distressed. The good thing is/was that there was an inner box with ample foam to protect the valuable cargo inside. The inner box with the foam liner saved the light from damage.

Crushed outer box




Crushed inner box




The second box arrived on Monday and was in worse shape than the first delivery. This time the inside box was pristine. This delivery was the Cree LED version of the Firefly with Ice Blue Tritium.

Crushed outer box




This is the first of two Titanium Firefly lights that I ordered. This one features a high CRI index Nichia 219B emitter and green tritium vials.
.
Picture of firefly on box




Overall firefly view




Pics of both lights





Pics with tritium lit.




My first impressions of the Nichia 219B light are mixed. The machining of the titanium looks very good. There are few marks from the lathe collet, and a few scratches probably incurred during assembly. The LED is well centered. The tritium vials aren’t all straight. They appear skewed on different angles. The screws used to retain the pocket clip are too long and encroach on access to the rear click switch removal area.

Crooked tritium




Long screws




I installed a freshly charged Eneloop for power and pushed the titanium tail button, and viola, there was a dim light being emitted, hence the Firefly name. Half pushes of the button yielded three brighter settings. Additional half pushes cycle you through power modes. A full push turns the light off.

The second power source supported is the 14500-lithium ion battery. I use Efest 14500’s as they were the highest milliamp rated 14500’s I could find. The 14500 battery is supposed to provide the highest lumens of the three battery types supported by this light. Without breaking out the light meter, a quick eyeball comparison, the Firefly light does appear brighter using the lithium batteries verses the NiMH Eneloop. I’ll break the meter out once the second light has been received to compare the Nichia 219B to the Cree XM-L2 emitter.

The reflector supplied in my light has extremely smooth texture without any ripples or orange peel. The lens was crystal clear and without fingerprints. Mode changes were noticeable from the firefly, to low, then medium and finally high.

Getting back to the tritium. To access the tritium vials, you remove the head, which contains the lens and reflector. Once the head is removed, you access the o-ring used to retain the tritium vials or stainless steel pins from falling out. This is what I found.

Light with head removed




After removal, I noticed what appeared to be dust or sand. Close examination, the debris turned out to be solder and solder flux that had splattered.

Head removed, debris




Close up of heatsink and mcpcb




The mcpcb was coated with this material as well as the copper heat sink. There’s not a lot of room inside the light once the LED is installed, so careful removal of the debris is going to be required without touching the LED dome. Until I do some poking at the solder splatter I don’t know how adherent it is. Either way, it needs to be removed.

The Cree XM-L2 LED has a plastic cup type devise over the LED. The mcpcb was clean on this light. Also, the hole in the reflector is smaller on the Cree version light.

Nichia on left, Cree on right.




I’m a big fan of titanium, which is why I purchased this light. The high CRI Nicaia 219B LED was an afterthought for me. I like the design of the Firefly light. It looks manly. The attention to detail during machining is apparent. This makes for a very attractive light. The knurling allows for a good grip and the light is light enough in weight for use as an EDC in a pocket or clipped to a belt or waistband.

Firefly machined clip




I’ve had a few email exchanges with Joshua about the Firefly light. He’s most proud of the machined type 5 titanium belt/pocket clip. The entire light was well thought out, but this is a semi-custom titanium light that is using foreign labor to keep the price down.

I enquired about the aluminum version of the Firefly and lessons learned with producing the titanium version. Joshua’s response was that there probably wouldn’t be another Firefly light as his wife’s green card was approved and he’s moving back to the USA. The light is too complex to turn production over to a job shop, so the 300 titanium Firefly lights are all there will probably ever be.


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## gunga (Jun 6, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Wow. Great impressions and pictures! I'm eagerly awaiting my final version.


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## NoNotAgain (Jun 6, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*



gunga said:


> Wow. Great impressions and pictures! I'm eagerly awaiting my final version.



Gunga, I don't know if you purchased with or without tritium. Getting the 1.75mm o-rings over the vials and then stuffing them into the light is a royal pain in the keister.

I think you'll be happy with the light. It's a looker.


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## gunga (Jun 6, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Technically mine has no trits pre installed so I'm in for some fun. Looking forward to the finished products. The prototypes were quite good.


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## Archangel (Jun 21, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Could someone point me to the latest output numbers with NiMH and li-ion? I've found several, and am not sure which is the latest (if any).


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## jashhash (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Hi everyone, thanks for posting your impressions and reviews. This has been quite a challenging project. I do have tracking numbers for those who haven't received their packages yet I would be more than happy to check up on your shipping status. 

As far as installing the tritium tubes with the shock dampening o-rings, yes it's difficult to get it just right, I mean those little o-rings are just so tiny. I posted a tutorial video here which should make the installation process much easier: https://www.kickstarter.com/project...ight-you-can-always-find-in-the/posts/1601781

Jason at mixglo took the 10mm X 2.5mm tritium tubes off his website but last time I checked he still has them in stock. I would just send him an email to ask for them.

Ryan's mixed tritium installation looks amazing. I think I will try that out with my light.

Archangel:
First of all I need to mention that performance will vary greatly (big emphasis on greatly) depending on the internal resistance of your battery which limits how bright the firefly can get on turbo mode. That being said I measured the current draw of the head assembly with my power supply set at 1.4V: 0.01A > 0.07A > 0.32A > 3.3A. In terms of wattage that is 0.014W > 0.10W > 0.45W > 4.62W. From this you can estimate the run time on each mode as well assuming you are using a 2450mAh Eneloop cell your results should be 245h > 35h > 7.6h > 44 mins. I have tested the firefly mode with an eneloop cell and can confirm that it does last at least 9 days being constantly on. If your an ultra light sort of camper you could bring it along and should just need a single AA cell for a weekend trip if you lay off the turbo mode.


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## jashhash (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Double post...


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## Archangel (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Thanks for the reply, Joshua. I just wanted to make sure that the output levels listed were the latest and greatest, since I know you went back and forth on a few of them during the beginning. Is there still a forced step-down of the top level? And finally - for now? - what is the diameter of the glass?


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## jashhash (Jun 23, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Hi Archangel,
I'm not understanding what you mean as a forced step down of the top level. The glass lens is a custom cut size, a replacement lens was sent to all those who ordered the firefly... I don't recall the exact diameter. 

I posted a presentation of the firefly flashlight to behance here: https://www.behance.net/gallery/38705465/Firefly-Beacon-in-the-Night if you would like to know more about the development process.


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## Archangel (Jul 6, 2016)

*Re: Re-Launched Firefly Flashlight Today on Kickstarter*

Sometimes flashlights automatically lower the output of the top level due to time. It sounds like that wasn't needed here.


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## AKiller47 (Aug 9, 2017)

Just want to ask, does it still have chance to buy one? Really love this design.


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## scout24 (Aug 9, 2017)

Last post was a year ago, you may want to do a WTB thread in the appropriate "WTB" area, or contact the OP directly. As this was a Kickstarter thread started two years ago with limited product, I'm going to close it...


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