# Z-Power P7 Series - World’s Highest Brightness of 900 lm at 10-watt



## Juctuc (Feb 26, 2008)

http://www.led-professional.com/content/view/930/29/

900lm at 10watt,,,well well...no PDF and no information about availability. But i think CREE will come out with they own led about in1-2 weeks.


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## Lightingguy321 (Feb 26, 2008)

The SSC P7 at this point is not available to the consumer market and is exclusively provided to surefire only. It was a new LED created in conjunction of both Surefire and SSC.


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## mds82 (Feb 26, 2008)

I would love to be able to get my hands on a few of those .... cant wait till the multi core chips become available to consumers.


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## evan9162 (Feb 26, 2008)

Some comments:

The package is HUGE. 12mm = about 1/2" in diameter. This would be a tight fit even in a Mag reflector.

All 4 dies are in parallel. I think this has been covered before, but you're going to need to drive this thing with > 2A. At 10W, each die is using 2.5W - which is about 700mA/die (700mA * 3.5V ~= 2.5W). So for full power, you'll need a power supply capable of 2.8A at 3.5ish volts.

Look at all those bond wires. 9 total under the dome. If you thought the bond wires on the P4 were fragile, you now have 3x the chances to break one accidentally.

The apparent size of this light source is going to be HUGE. It'll be bigger than a Lux V by far. The dies are spaced out from each other, AND the phosphor deposition is far larger than the dies themselves. This will be quite difficult to focus into a tight spot - this will be a good floody device though.

The giant package size and huge die spacing are likely compromises to ensure proper thermal performance. 

I'll be fun to get ahold of these to try them out.


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## SemiMan (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: Z-Power P7 Series - World’s Highest Brightness of 900 lm at 10-watt*

Who wants to question the likelihood of Seoul delivering 90 lumens/watt at 2.5watts? Considering the R2 only delivers about 80 lumens/watt at 2.5 watts (700mA) it seems unlikely they could deliver these in any sort of volume where they actually hit those specs. Of course when they heat up in a real light fixture, that 900 suddenly becomes 800......


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## jirik_cz (Feb 26, 2008)

Datasheet can be found here http://zled.com/en/product/prd/zpowerLEDp7.asp

This image is a snapshot from the datasheet




900 lumens is only maximum value, not typical...

Some quick calculations 700-900lm at 10-11,8W -> 60-90lm/W (2800mA)


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## matrixshaman (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: Z-Power P7 Series - World’s Highest Brightness of 900 lm at 10-watt*

Think residential lighting - it looks like it's about 50% more efficient than flourescent and after seeing a big article today on mercury warnings for flourescent bulb replacements I think this would be the logical answer. Assuming production can be ramped up enough to keep cost reasonable I think if they put these into a 120 volt bulb replacement setup they will sell like crazy if promoted properly. The will of course even outlast flourescent if they have a life anything like other LED's. I predicted about 8 or 9 years ago that within about 10 years LED's would be replacing household lights - looks like it has a good chance of happening or at least getting a good start soon.


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## IMSabbel (Feb 26, 2008)

evan9162 said:


> Some comments:
> The apparent size of this light source is going to be HUGE. It'll be bigger than a Lux V by far. The dies are spaced out from each other, AND the phosphor deposition is far larger than the dies themselves. This will be quite difficult to focus into a tight spot - this will be a good floody device though.
> 
> I'll be fun to get ahold of these to try them out.



That may be, but i see the other side: at 900lumens, this is an adequate replacement for a fixed lighting point. 
No messing around with multi-emitters needed anymore.

Edit: should have read the thread to the end...

also: Think about economey of scale: How cheap are normal light bulbs, even though they have a fragile thungsten coil in a delicate glass housing?
Or how we can create computer chips with 100s of million transitors that sell for $30.
As soon as you sell those leds in 10s of millions instead of tens of thousands, they _will_ be cheap. (Just compare to the price drop in compact fluorescents, which are vastly more complex devices).


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## jtr1962 (Feb 26, 2008)

IMSabbel said:


> As soon as you sell those leds in 10s of millions instead of tens of thousands, they _will_ be cheap. (Just compare to the price drop in compact fluorescents, which are vastly more complex devices).


Yep, I've been saying for a long time now that emitters like this will probably hit the 25 cent price point once made in huge quantities. The raw materials cost less than those in a 25 cent incandescent lamp. It's just a matter of the figuring out how to manufacture these inexpensively. That WILL happen sooner rather than later. Once it does, the incandescent lamp loses it's only real advantage-initial sales price.


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## SemiMan (Feb 26, 2008)

*Re: Z-Power P7 Series - World’s Highest Brightness of 900 lm at 10-watt*

I would guess you could make 4 Rebels for less money than this device.

In terms of volume manufacturing, making a good LED is still a complex process...... a heck of a lot more complex and exacting than a light bulb. It takes a while to properly diffuse a semiconductor using expensive equipment, unlike the lightbulb which is quite simple.

Keep in mind there are many semiconductors that are made in the 10's of millions that are relatively simple that do not cost $0.25.

Semiman


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## 2xTrinity (Feb 26, 2008)

> Think residential lighting - it looks like it's about 50% more efficient than flourescent and after seeing a big article today on mercury warnings for flourescent bulb replacements I think this would be the logical answer.


I presume you're talking about cheap CFLs -- those have ballast losses, and self-shadowing losses due to the twisted tube. Linear fixtures can already be over 50% more efficient than CFLs.

However, these LEDs have a couple potentially useful applications. Even though they might not be able to focused into super-narrow-angle flashlight beams, they could certainly be packaged to replace household halogen spots and floods -- two applications fluorescents can't easily replace.


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## Gryloc (Feb 26, 2008)

Ooh, more news, meaning the Seoul P7 is getting closer to be in our hands. Cool...

Now, What is the deal with Lumileds? I wonder why Lumileds doesn't release something similar, but either in the form of the LuxV package (or scaled up a bit), or in a larger ceramic substrate like the Rebel and Cree XR-E. Imagine a substrate, say 6mm X 6mm, with 4 TFFC dies bonded in the center, and connected in series with each other. When you look at the big picture of the Soul P7 in the above link, you will notice that they had a problem with the bond wires going to each die. The Seoul P4 uses two bond wires going to the top of the die, while the P7 uses only one each (to keep the bond wires from obstructing the light any further). With the TFFC technology, all electrical contacts are below the die (connected to the top of the die by multiple small vias), and there are not any obstructed views! Die placement can also be closer (if the power density is not a problem). You can then have a smaller package, a nicer beam (for the most part), and the package would only need a small glob of silicone to cover the dies that may be slightly larger than the normal Lumileds dome. Wires are soldered to the top or bottom on pads like the Cree XR-E and sort of like the Rebel, so fragile leads (like on the standard Lumileds Luexeon emitter and the Seoul P4) do not break off, which usually renders the emitter useless.

Does any one else wish for something similar? Maybe if Cree jumps on soon, Lumileds will feel pressured to update their multi-die emitters. With the above substrate, you could also increase the number of dies for increased brightness (considering the power consumption and power density is not too high). 3 X 3 dies would be wonderful, to compete with the nearly lethal OSRAM OSTAR. Lumileds can then compete in the market of forward automotive lighting, and also for light sources for projectors and rear-projection televisions. They can even spread out the dies to make it more suitable for fixed lighting. I guess a handful of Rebels could be used for fixed lighting .

There I go: dreaming... and ranting. Why can a fellow's dream come true? It can be done now, and I bet that demand for such an emitter has to be high (if the awkward Seoul P4 is getting such a warm welcome), so why not try to release products like this? Come on, Lumileds! <sigh> :sigh:

-Tony


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## skalomax (Feb 26, 2008)

They're Here

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?p=2129735#post2129735


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## evan9162 (Feb 27, 2008)

Crap!
They must have changed the construction. HgRyu's photos show *17* (yes, 17!) bond wires under that dome! 

It also shows that the dies are much more closely clustered together than the PR photo. That will make focusability better, but concentrates the heat more in the center of the heat sink slug. There is still an excessive amount of phosphor compared to the die size.

The P7 will have the same polarity issue as the P4 did - the slug is electrically connected to the positive power lead - so you'll have to isolate the slug of this guy just like the P4.


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## tebore (Feb 28, 2008)

One of the dies look kinda off in HgRyu's pics. In his pics the bottom right die is slightly crooked, I hope later LEDs don't have a problem with alignment.


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## precisionworks (Feb 28, 2008)

> I think if they put these into a 120 volt bulb replacement setup they will sell like crazy if promoted properly



They currently make a model called the Acriche, which has a VF of roughly 110v or 220v:

http://www.seoulsemicon.com/en/product/prd/acriche.asp


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## IMSabbel (Feb 28, 2008)

SemiMan said:


> I would guess you could make 4 Rebels for less money than this device.
> 
> ...
> Keep in mind there are many semiconductors that are made in the 10's of millions that are relatively simple that do not cost $0.25.
> ...


Not if you include the cost to assemble them together to form a single light source.

And you just cannot compare the complexity of semiconductor devices like microprocessors with leds.
Its like comparing spear throwing with intercontinental missiles. 
Even creating the source wafers for the chips is more work than doing a led will ever be. (not to mention that 8-12 stacked layers of lithographically created nanostructures).
The fact why you can get a 1Gbyte USB-Stick for less money than a like CREE XR-E Q5 is simply the fact that the R&D budget of a single of the "big boy" Semiconductor companies, for a single year, is bigger than ALL white led R&D _ever_.


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## SemiMan (Feb 29, 2008)

*Re: Z-Power P7 Series - World’s Highest Brightness of 900 lm at 10-watt*



IMSabbel said:


> Not if you include the cost to assemble them together to form a single light source.
> 
> And you just cannot compare the complexity of semiconductor devices like microprocessors with leds.
> Its like comparing spear throwing with intercontinental missiles.
> ...



I would disagree. The small source size of the Rebel is going to result in very small optics. I will be forced to large optics for the P7. Given the hassle I see of placing the P7, isolating it, etc. I am guessing I could put 4 Rebels down on FR4 fo less money.

Cost in semiconductor manufacturing is more than just the number of diffusion layers and geometry though that certainly has a big influence in terms of up-front capital cost. There is certainly enormous R&D spent on fine geometry and large wafer sizes.

That said, up to this point, even though 12" wafers are available, 8" is mainstream, and 6" is old tech, LEDS are still predominantly manufactured on 2" wafers, with 4" wafers just coming online. You could pick up old 6" equipment for very little, but the reality is that the processes are different and complex in different ways. To make a good LED wafer requires very tight control of the diffusion over the whole LED surface. Combine that with different defect requirements, optical integrity, back-thinning, surface treatments, etc. and even though there is a huge knowledge of semiconductor processing to draw on, a lot of it can not be used. The reason for using approximately a 1mm*1mm die was much in part a trade-off between how much light could be gotten out of a single die and picking a die size that would result in a suitable yield.

Oh, and I was not comparing 1gig USB sticks to LEDs, I was thinking more along the lines of power-semiconductors (mosfets) and microcontrollers that are made in the 10's of millions like LEDS and have a similar cost structures ($1.00 - 2.00). Those are often made on 8" wafers by the way.


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## Spypro (Feb 29, 2008)

*Re: Z-Power P7 Series - World’s Highest Brightness of 900 lm at 10-watt*

Hmmm... I can image 5 of those P7 in a Mag. It would be incredible.. and the size of the heatsink would be incredible too


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## tebore (Feb 29, 2008)

I guess we can start planning super heatsinks made from solid copper and having pins to remove the heat.


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## Daekar (Mar 14, 2008)

So has anybody figured out why the cores are arranged in parallel rather than series? Doesn't seem to make much sense: introduce possibly unbalanced cores which might result in overheating one, and increase current draw which will in turn result in increased losses to resistance. ??? I'm stumped. Any ideas?


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## evan9162 (Mar 14, 2008)

Daekar said:


> So has anybody figured out why the cores are arranged in parallel rather than series? Doesn't seem to make much sense: introduce possibly unbalanced cores which might result in overheating one, and increase current draw which will in turn result in increased losses to resistance. ??? I'm stumped. Any ideas?



I have a theory

Notice that the slug of the P4 and P7 are electrically connected to the positive power lead. The slug is not isolated. That means there's an electrical path between the LED dice and the heat sink slug that it's bonded to.

In order to do a series or series/parallel arrangement with the dies in the P7, they would have to electrically isolate 2 or 3 of them (or even all of them). This would (significantly) impact the thermal interface between the die and slug, and likely increase the difficulty/cost of manufacture - they would have to be able to ensure that 2 or 3 of the dies are electrically isolated. 

Thus, the easiest solution was to simply put all dies in parallel - this puts them all at the same electrical potential, and they can bond all 4 of them directly to the slug without worrying about electrical isolation or potential differences. To me, that's the most likely motivation behind the pure parallel arrangement of the P7. It's simpler for Seoul to manufacture...besides, they're not the ones that have to worry about pumping 2.8A into these things - they just stick a buttload of bond wires in to make sure they can handle the current, and let the user figure out how to power them.


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## LukeA (Mar 14, 2008)

tebore said:


> I guess we can start planning super heatsinks made from solid copper and having pins to remove the heat.



Lead has a significantly lower specific heat than copper or brass.


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## Calina (Mar 14, 2008)

evan9162 said:


> Thus, the easiest solution was to simply put all dies in parallel - this puts them all at the same electrical potential, and they can bond all 4 of them directly to the slug without worrying about electrical isolation or potential differences. To me, that's the most likely motivation behind the pure parallel arrangement of the P7. It's simpler for Seoul to manufacture...besides, they're not the ones that have to worry about pumping 2.8A into these things - they just stick a buttload of bond wires in to make sure they can handle the current, and let the user figure out how to power them.


 
Wouldn't the easiest solution be, to use a larger die?


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## evan9162 (Mar 14, 2008)

Calina said:


> Wouldn't the easiest solution be, to use a larger die?



No, because Seoul uses the EZ-1000 die from Cree in the P7. Better to source a high quality, high performance die from a 3rd party than to try to manufacture your own large LED die which has its own set of challenges.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 14, 2008)

evan9162 said:


> I have a theory
> 
> Notice that the slug of the P4 and P7 are electrically connected to the positive power lead. The slug is not isolated. That means there's an electrical path between the LED dice and the heat sink slug that it's bonded to.
> 
> ...


I agree 100% with this reasoning. This is the easiest (i.e. least expensive) way to incorporate 4 dies into one slug. Since Cree's XR-E LEDs have isolated slugs, then Cree's version of the 4-die LED will have no such constraints regarding connectivity. In other words, let's hope Cree's 4-die LED is a 4 series arrangement. The SSC P7's 4P arrangement can work if the dies are reasonably well matched though.


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## evan9162 (Mar 15, 2008)

jtr1962 said:


> I agree 100% with this reasoning. This is the easiest (i.e. least expensive) way to incorporate 4 dies into one slug. Since Cree's XR-E LEDs have isolated slugs, then Cree's version of the 4-die LED will have no such constraints regarding connectivity. In other words, let's hope Cree's 4-die LED is a 4 series arrangement. The SSC P7's 4P arrangement can work if the dies are reasonably well matched though.



I think Cree may still end up with the same problem. The heat sink path on the Cree is isolated because they use a ceramic substrate on the LED package. However, the base of the dice are still connected to positive, as can be seen in some of newbie's shots:

http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/creexre.htm (somewhere down on the page)

You can see that the LED is bonded to the electrically positive part of the package (the positive bond wires simply connect to the copper pad right next to the LED), and there's likely some connection even via the ESD diode submount. 

I think that Cree would still need to do some kind of electrical isolation to get a series arrangement within one package. Granted, they can just make several copper pads on the ceramic substrate of the package, but having the copper layer does help spread heat out a bit to aid in thermal transfer. 

So I bet that if Cree did do a S/P or pure series for their quad-die device, they would sacrifice a bit of thermal performance to do so. However, if they too went to a pure parallel arrangement, thermal performance could be a wee bit better since they could rely on the top copper layer to spread the heat out a bit for better transfer through the ceramic substrate.


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## Gryloc (Mar 15, 2008)

I was bothered by the fact that the Seoul P7 was arranged in parallel, but after experimenting with one, I strangely kind of like it! It is neat to deliver 1000mA to it, and it has a super low Vf compared to a Cree, Lux, or Seoul P4, and it seems to deliver much more light than the latest Cree and TFFC Luxeon. The Vf was 1.13V (see EDIT) at 1000mA with a J-binned P7, so imagine the Vf with the I-binned P7s available now! Comparing this emitter directly to one of the latest Crees or Luxs, in the normal scale of current (0-2000mA), it appears to have absolutely no drooping! Sure, this is because each die is getting 1/4th the current, but it is still neat. Then, you can crank up the current to over 2.8A and this thing is just mean!

So, I like the arrangement! I agree that it would probably be the easiest to use the parallel arrangement when all Seoul has to bond their dies to is a large piece of copper (the slug). Cree would have more flexibility since they could make separate copper pads. Evan9162, how bad would the latest die carriers be with the latest materials? I mean those SiC substrates that are placed beneath every Luxeon die, or something like that beneath the Luxeon V.

What if Lumileds would do something similar? Couldn’t they do what they did with the Rebel and fit four TFFC dies really close together, with copper pads radiating outwards to spread out the heat? There would be no need for bond wires, so that would be very nice. You can have four closely spaced dies with a minimal silicone dome similar (in size) to what is used on the K2s. What about a new Luxeon V using a similar platform to the newest TFFC K2, but with four dies?

I am not sure if I would want Seoul to redesign the P7 to use series connected dies if they could. I noticed that all four dies are lit up the same at different currents (as high of currents that I could go before blinding myself), so I am assuming that they are matched pretty good. I do see the problem if one die experiences Vf drop over time more than the others, but time will tell. Evan, this April (when I actually will have time), I will have to send my Seoul P7 to you with those 0200 K2s for you to test. The P7 will have a couple of hours of use by then, but it should be okay. This is only if I do not kill it by then! LiteMania has the lower Vf binned ones (I-binned) for sale over in the MP, so you could give it a try yourself...


-Tony

EDIT: Please ignore my Vf measurements at 1000mA. It is actually 3.13V, not 1.13V. More on this on post #31...


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## evan9162 (Mar 15, 2008)

The die carriers below the Cree (which it looks like the Seoul P4/P7 don't use) probably adds maybe 1C/W to the thermal path (XR-E - 8C/W; P4 - 6.9C/W)

The Luxeon silicon submount is probably in the same ballpark.

Putting 4 dies into the space of a rebel (or even a bit larger) is probably too high of a power density to really deal with the heat properly. You probably wouldn't want that high of power density unless you had a metal slug - the ceramic doesn't spread heat effectively enough to aid the situation.

It looks like Lumileds could essentially drop-in their TFFC dies onto the Luxeon V silicon submount, and have a similar performing product to the P7 - Maybe it's a trick they've got up their sleeves - since it seems that they're still producing it. 

We'll have to see how these P7s fare, especially when pumping 2.8A into them. It'd be interesting to scope the Vf over the first 20-40ms after powering up at 2.8A to see what kind of initial Vf drop is caused by the dies heating up - that should indicate how hot they're actually getting.


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## koala (Mar 16, 2008)

Tony, can you please reconfirm the vf?



Gryloc said:


> The Vf was 1.13V at 1000mA with a J-binned P7


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## Gryloc (Mar 16, 2008)

Ha ha. Sorry about that. I do not know what I was thinking when I typed that. Actually, at 1000mA, I measured a Vf of 3.13V. I have a Seoul P7 with a J-binned Vf (3.50V-3.75V @ ? current), but LiteMania has I binned Seoul P7s for sale (3.25V-3.50V).

I quickly tossed this info together (from Excel) and posted it below because I feel bad for withholding this useful information any longer. I wanted to create a new thread about this later, but I have been swamped lately and this next week is exam week for me. Here are some tables and graphs that compare the forward voltage to the supplied current, as well as the lux (the lux reading reading from my make-shift light box) throughout the entire range of current...








(click for full-sized pictures)

I am using two wires to send current to the emitter and to measure the voltage, so I do not induce any voltage drop by the thin wires. I used a CC power supply, and you will notice that 5280mA is the absolute max that it will deliver (rated at 5A). One series of data shows the measurements of the Seoul P7 while the emitter (attached to a stock P4 CPU heatsink) is cooled by the original Intel cooling fan, while the second set shows the measurements of the Seoul P7 without any cooling fan (convection cooling). I do not have any temperature measurements during either case because I do not own a good digital thermometer. In the fist case, where the heatsink was cooled by the fan, the temperature (felt by hand) was slightly cooler than room temperature during the entire long test. For the convection cooling, the heatsink was rather warm to the touch (50-60C-ish) by the end of the long test, but not hot enough to be painful or anything so it could be handled. Notice the Lux measurements from 50mA to 2000mA and compare that to known lumen curves. See the lack of drooping from 50mA to 2000mA? In comparison, the "lux" curve of a TFFC K2 driven to 2000mA seems to level off after 1500mA. If you treat the Seoul P7 like every other emitter, then I guess hooking dies in parallel gets rid of the "droop" problem. I know it is more complex than that, but still. I cannot pinpoint the perfect lux-to-lumen conversion factor, but it is somewhere between the lux/1.0 and lux/1.5. I will need help on that matter later...

More data will come (when I have time) comparing this Seoul P7 to a Lumileds 0200 binned TFFC K2. Pretending that I used 4 of these TFFC k2 dies in a quad-die emitter like the P7, I multiplied the lux values (while in the light box) by four, and the lux readings closely matched the readings (and the curve) of the Seoul P7. This shows how bright the Seoul P7 is, compared to an emitter that has a minimum flux of 200lm when the K2 is driven at 1000mA. I will try to get that information to you guys later.


-Tony


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## IMSabbel (Mar 17, 2008)

With fan, it felt "cooler then room temperature" because metal conducts heat better. And your interpretates the increase in heat loss as "colder".

In the second case:
Slightly warm to touch is 35-40C. 60C is "**** this thing is hot".


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## Gryloc (Mar 17, 2008)

Hmmm, was I unclear about heatsink temperatures? I tried my best to determine temperature by hand. In the first case, the heatsink was probably room temperature, since there wasn't any moisture in the air and the fans just equalized the temperatures. It felt cooler due to the how good of a heat conductor the aluminum was. Sorry about that. 

However on the second case, "warm to the touch" was a slight understatement. It was uncomfortably hot, where you can handle it and hold the heatsink (move it around), but if you sit there and squeeze the metal, you ask yourself "why am I doing this?" because it is uncomfortable. I thought I read that the threshold of pain was around 60C, but it actually around 52C (for several seconds). Therefore, I think that the heatsink was closer to 40-50 degrees Celsius. Wow, I think I will look into a good thermometer, or maybe a cheap K thermocouple probe or something (DX has a cheap one) so I do not have to guess like this.

With almost 20W going to the Seoul P7 by the end of a long test (20min max), there is good reason for a natural air cooled heatsink to get this hot. Under normal currents, I bet that it would not be so bad. I can see prolonged use in a flashlight will be reduced just because the limited heatsinking ability of aluminum body. It would not be any different than the heat produced by a tri or quad emitter maglite. I got to head out for some finals. I hope I cleared things up about the temperatures... 

-Tony


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## Lightingguy321 (Mar 17, 2008)

Speaking of heatsinks, if the P4 had problems with tint shift, how bad is the tint shift on the P7?


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## Gryloc (Mar 18, 2008)

I never seen the tint shift (no angry blue). The color seems constant throughout the entire range of current. I bet there is some slight tint shifting (just like with any LED), but you would gave to really watch it on a white wall. To be honest, if you wouldn't have brought up that old Seoul P4 issue, I would have completely forgotten about it. I guess that Seoul got the phosphors right by making them more tolerant of heat, or they changed the phosphor make-up all together. I do not know...

-Tony


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## Lightingguy321 (Mar 18, 2008)

Thats good to know, hopefully the V-bin P4's will have that new phosphor coating too, so they don't have tint shift issues. (on a side note, I near killed a U bin in my strion mod and now it has this brownish looking die surface (oops))


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## Gryloc (Mar 19, 2008)

I hope that they are using a new phosphor technology. Maybe since each die does not get that hot (700mA per die at the rated current), the efficiency of the phosphor coating does not decrease. However, I did test my Seoul P7 at 5280mA (1320mA per die if each die is perfectly matched), and still no noticeable shifting. The older Seoul P4 emitters used to start turning angry blue at around 1A, but they got better after the initial run of them. I noticed that currents of like 1200mA to 1500mA starts to cause the LED to turn angry blue with the latest Seoul P4 U-bins nowadays. Maybe if I run the Seoul P7 at 5300mA to 6000mA, then the thing will turn angry blue :shakehead. I do not plan on running the thing at above 5A anymore, and not above 4A for long periods of time until I can somehow measure the temperatures of the LED. 

However, considering my power hungry nature, I would like to see this used as a camera flash. The Seoul P7 uses 16 bond wires to handle the current of the 4 dies, just like 4 of the 4-die Cree XR-Es. These newer emitters can handle in excess of 2A, so what if 8A is pulsed to the Seoul P7 for less than a second? The Q4 binned XR-Es, according to evan9162, can output around 340lm at 2A, so if the Seoul P7 uses slightly recent EZ1000 dies, we can see a blinding 1350lm flash from the Seoul P7 at 8A. That means almost 30W of power, though. Just a thought. If the prices of the P7 get to the $10 range, I may think about experimenting with a tri-P7 flash that outputs over 4000lm. There I go dreaming again...

So, yeah. Back to the P4. I hope that future V-binned P4s does not have this blue shift issue. Maybe you can finally power the P4 at up to 1500mA without problems. Then the TFFC K2 will have met it's match (in power handling). 

-Tony


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## 2xTrinity (Mar 19, 2008)

Gryloc said:


> However, considering my power hungry nature, I would like to see this used as a camera flash. The Seoul P7 uses 16 bond wires to handle the current of the 4 dies, just like 4 of the 4-die Cree XR-Es. These newer emitters can handle in excess of 2A, so what if 8A is pulsed to the Seoul P7 for less than a second? The Q4 binned XR-Es, according to evan9162, can output around 340lm at 2A, so if the Seoul P7 uses slightly recent EZ1000 dies, we can see a blinding 1350lm flash from the Seoul P7 at 8A. That means almost 30W of power, though. Just a thought. If the prices of the P7 get to the $10 range, I may think about experimenting with a tri-P7 flash that outputs over 4000lm. There I go dreaming again...


Even 4000lm is going to be a far cry from a xenon flashbulb. Flashes the size of a tri-P7 array can produce closer to a million lumens, for less than 1/1000th a second. This means to get the same amount of light energy to a target, you'd need an exposure time of 250 times longer, which means more blurring when photographing moving subjects.

The advantage of an LED photoflash for things like cell phone cameras is tha the emitter is dual purpose -- it can serve as a flash or as a constant-on flashlight, whch no xenon flash could ever do.


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## VanIsleDSM (Mar 19, 2008)

And because the charging circuit for a xenon flash would add to the phone's size.


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## Opto-King (Mar 20, 2008)

2xTrinity said:


> Even 4000lm is going to be a far cry from a xenon flashbulb. Flashes the size of a tri-P7 array can produce closer to a million lumens, for less than 1/1000th a second. This means to get the same amount of light energy to a target, you'd need an exposure time of 250 times longer, which means more blurring when photographing moving subjects.


 
Hmm, is it really the lm out of the light source that is interessting when making a camera flash? Or, is it the flux that "hits" the target of the photo that is interessting? :shrug:


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## Gryloc (Mar 20, 2008)

Yeah, I did not realize how bright modern flashes are. So a million lumens from a normal hotshoe flash? Are one of those expensive? I am not a big photographer, and I really do not own a nice SLR camera. I did not realize how bright flashes really were. Oh well, that was just a side thought. 

Well, a tri Seoul P7 has to be better than really small flashes, like those seen on compact digital cameras and some of the fancy xenon flash camera phones, right? The flash on my digital camera is pretty lousy. I seen that study by Lumileds where a 4 TFFC LED flash (which could probably produce 700 lumens at the current that they sent to those LEDs) was much brighter, or comparable to the xenon flashes on camera phones, and of course they were compact due to the lack of big electrolytic capacitors. I guess three Seoul P7s are not the mose compact, but 12 Rebels or 12 of those TFFC die flash LEDs from Lumileds (which may have been Rebels since I cannot find them for sale) would be pretty compact and bright.

As Opto-King brought up, maybe the lux on your target may be important. When taking a shot with a small zoom lens, maybe a P7 with a stocky reflector or optic would be helpful.

Sure, Seoul P7s may not be that useful in the camera world, but use in forward automotive lighting would be possible! Three Seoul P7s behind deep, specialized reflectors and lenses would produce the sheer output suitable to replace the typical and slightly higher wattage halogen headlights. From my research, 1000lm is typical for the average low beams, and 1500lm is typical for average high beams (given your normal 55W headlight bulbs and also lux depends on quality of reflector). HID is closer to 3000lm, so designing LED headlights closer to range may be better. With specialized reflectors, or well designed projector optics, three or four warmer or neutral white Seoul P7s could be a viable replacement! When I say "specially designed" reflectors and optics, I mean those that produce the desired flatter beam with horizontal cutoff, and varying beam patterns depending on low/high mode (so I can get those issues out of the way). Chew on that some...

Finally, if automotive lighting is still not suitable, then there is still interior lighting hopes for a four-die LED once the module or the entire fixture is designed for use with LED (and not just for the hot, old incandescent bulbs). I am just trying to stress that there is hope for Seoul P7 in every day use besides our flashlights...

-Tony


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## IMSabbel (Mar 20, 2008)

_CELLPHONE CAMERAS_ with flashes with powers of up to 1 million lumens are available.
For a serious professional flash, i would expect 10-50 million.
And yeah, they are fast. Down to below 100us.

I have seen that study by lumiled, too. But i disagree with their conclusion (that of course is biased):Leds dont make good flashes just becaues they lack the stroboscopic properties of the xenons: what use is a flash if you can only use it when nothing moves?


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## tebore (Mar 20, 2008)

There's plenty of cell phones with Xenon flashes that aren't huge. The Nokia N82 and the SE K790 come to mind. Those cameras are great, you don't need huge electrolytic caps you can use those new polymer caps which are way more robust and more compact. Most new motherboards are using those now because they can stand high temps better.


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## Mash (Mar 22, 2008)

*Re: Z-Power P7 Series - World’s Highest Brightness of 900 lm at 10-watt*

Will be interesting trying to drive these in a fixed lighting application. Most drivers (both AC and DC versions) are set up for 350 or 700mA or max ~1.0A outputs. It seems xitaniums or some other higher powered commercial drivers which are meant to power several parrallel legs, are the way to go with these.
Any other ideas?


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## ElektroLumens (Mar 22, 2008)

Can hardly wait to get my hands on the P7 LED! 

Wayne


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## jezzyp (Mar 22, 2008)

ElektroLumens said:


> Can hardly wait to get my hands on the P7 LED!
> 
> Wayne



To put five in a pentaburner I assume...


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## W-c.Scenario (Mar 22, 2008)

DX just got SSC P7´s in their "new arrivals list"  for $29.25 http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11809


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## ElektroLumens (Mar 22, 2008)

jezzyp said:


> To put five in a pentaburner I assume...



I think the 3" reflectors I have will work quite nicely with the P7. That's what I'll try first.

Two of the P7 in a flashlight would be interesting, but that will depend on the availability of suitable optics/reflectors to come forth.

Wayne


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## LEDninja (Mar 23, 2008)

W-c.Scenario said:


> DX just got SSC P7´s in their "new arrivals list"  for $29.25 http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11809


Dealextreme BSYPI bin - 9000K and only 570-740lm. Too blue for me.
Litemania CSXPI bin - 6700K and 740-960lm.


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## nwbrewer (Mar 24, 2008)

ElektroLumens said:


> I think the 3" reflectors I have will work quite nicely with the P7. That's what I'll try first.
> 
> Two of the P7 in a flashlight would be interesting, but that will depend on the availability of suitable optics/reflectors to come forth.
> 
> Wayne


 
Wayne are you going to be making heatsinks for the p7? I'm thinking I'd like to upgrade my divelight with one of these, but I have no machining ability, so I'll need to purchase a heatsink from somewhere.

What are you guys using to drive this thing then? The DX specs say 12watt, 4.7 volts 2.8A. Would running this off of a 4 Ni-mh batteries work? Anybody found a driver that will work for this thing? I'm excited by this, but my electrical skills are somewhat rudimentary.

Jake


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## Prototype (Mar 25, 2008)

Hi, I 'm new to the site, and was hoping someone would be able to help me get my head around how semiconductors interact with supply voltage. I have purchased some cree xre and ssc P7 LED's to make a prototype spotlight for testing. I have decided to power them in pairs (2 crees together and 2 P7's) in two separate circuits in series with a 7.4v Li-ion battery and use one 3w 0.5ohm resistor in series.
Using the standard ohms law calculations, I can work out the following for the P7 :
Vs = 7.4, Vf = 6.64 (3.32v each LED), Resistor = 0.5ohm.
Therefore current through LED = 7.4 - 6.64 / 0.5 x 1000 = 1520mA. Power used in resistor = 1.16w, all sounds rather nice and hunky-dory.
Now, my puzzle is what happens to the LED forward voltage (Vf) and current draw when the input voltage (Vs) changes? The 7.4v nominated for a Li-ion battery is the nominal voltage, it will typically start out at 8.4v and slowly discharge to about 5v. 
Using the same LED data with increased Vs the following will happen:
8.4-6.64 / 0.5 x 1000 = 3520mA, power used in resistor is 6.2w and its cooked. Now I know that the LED will not draw a current of 3520mA at a Vf of 3.32v, from manufacturers specs it is more like 1500mA.
Does the forward voltage (Vf) increase to keep the through current roughly the same or does the Vf and the through current increase? As the increase in Vf is not linear with the increase in through current in an LED, I was hoping for an explanation of how you can calculate how Vf, Vs and current interact?


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## TheCowboy (Mar 25, 2008)

Hello Guys,
First of all, the P7 is not the brightest LED bulb, although Surefire would have you believe it.
Our ZP20 20watt is perhaps the most powerful LED produced today.
We do sell it to companies other than Surefire, so interested parties may contact us..
We also sell the ZP10 10watt led comperable to the p7 10 watt. 
We prefer not to export these outside of the US in small quantities, but
People interested in purchasing the light may contact me directly at my personal email. We will sell in quantities as low as 10.
I will send pictures, pricing, etc... These are not toys, so Please, only serious purchasers ready to buy need contact me as we have lotsof business as is.
The Cowboy


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## TheCowboy (Mar 25, 2008)

my contact email for the ZP10 and ZP20 is [email protected] I prefer this email as I will not give out our website email except to real buyers of our led products.
PS, we sell in quantities from 10 to 50,000.
Free shipping is standard
The CowBoy


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## SUBjohan (Mar 26, 2008)

TheCowboy said:


> my contact email for the ZP10 and ZP20 is [email protected] I prefer this email as I will not give out our website email except to real buyers of our led products.
> PS, we sell in quantities from 10 to 50,000.
> Free shipping is standard
> The CowBoy



We need datasheets and pictures please.

Greetz Johan


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## wvaltakis2 (Mar 26, 2008)

I'd take one towards that 10 minimum. 

~Chip


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## StefanFS (Mar 26, 2008)

TheCowboy said:


> my contact email for the ZP10 and ZP20 is [email protected] I prefer this email as I will not give out our website email except to real buyers of our led products.
> PS, we sell in quantities from 10 to 50,000.
> Free shipping is standard
> The CowBoy


 
A short search effort using the big search engines yield nothing when I look for ZP10 & ZP20, nothing apparently led oriented anyway. So, do you sell a secret or 'confidential' revolutionary new product? Your posts on this forum up to date are all promoting your product. You need to substantiate your claims with facts.

Stefan


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## js (Mar 26, 2008)

Also, please keep in mind that the LED forum is not the forum for the buying and selling of items, so this thread shouldn't turn into a sales thread. Feel free to continue discussion(s) of the product(s), however.


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## Drewfus2101 (Mar 26, 2008)

TheCowboy said:


> my contact email for the ZP10 and ZP20 is [email protected] I prefer this email as I will not give out our website email except to real buyers of our led products.
> PS, we sell in quantities from 10 to 50,000.
> Free shipping is standard
> The CowBoy



I've got to agree with StefanFS. It looks like every one of your post so far are the same 2 posts you have made in this thread just copy and pasted into other threads. 

Then you use a free and untraceable email account. Not an account linked with a company that is producing these wonderful new emitters. Whatever company that is.

You offer no proof or evidence of anything. When the P7 hit it was the talk of the science community. If your company has something that is more efficient you would have front page news, not some black market item. *This could not be a more obvious scam.* I just hope that some of the more trusting (gullible) people on this board don't fall for it.


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## wvaltakis2 (Mar 26, 2008)

Probably total B.S. but hey, if it's not I've got my foot in the door. 

~Chip


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## ElektroLumens (Mar 26, 2008)

nwbrewer said:


> Wayne are you going to be making heatsinks for the p7? I'm thinking I'd like to upgrade my divelight with one of these, but I have no machining ability, so I'll need to purchase a heatsink from somewhere.
> 
> What are you guys using to drive this thing then? The DX specs say 12watt, 4.7 volts 2.8A. Would running this off of a 4 Ni-mh batteries work? Anybody found a driver that will work for this thing? I'm excited by this, but my electrical skills are somewhat rudimentary.
> 
> Jake



Jake,

I suppose I can make some heat sinks? But for what? A Mag? I have not seen what the beam is with the Mag reflector. I'm sure it works, but probably a huge amount of the light goes to sidespill. That might be okay. A hotlips type sink, 'Hotzip', would be what is needed.

You do not have to run it full blown at 2.8A. That is the max. Just like we see a speed limit sign which says '65'. You don't have to go 65 you know, we just think that is the speed we need to go. This LED will be plenty bright at lessor power levels. Three NIMH cells, at 3.6V, or a Li-Ion, the 18650 or the new D Li-Ion will work, with no regulation, direct drive. This will not be at the full potential, but it will be very good, and run cooler too.

I have the PWM switch that will work with this LED if it is driven at 2A or less.

I'm waiting for the ones I ordered, to see how well they work with the big 3" reflectors I have. The die on the P7 is huge, so, the bigger the reflector, the better.

Wayne


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## zelda (Mar 26, 2008)

A big step forward from the P7 is the thermal resistance.

If you look back to a Lux I emitter, thermal resistance is 15 C/W.
Lux III is 13 C/W, Lux V is 11 C/W....

The P7 has a thermal resistance from only 3 C/W. Problems with cooling should be minimal.

I'm thinnking about a dive light, maybe in canister style with 2 P7 6500K and 2 P7 warm-white, if they can reach a simular CRI like the P4 warm-white with 93. 
A regular 35W HID dive light has a CRI from 65 to 70%.

zelda


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## evan9162 (Mar 26, 2008)

It's not really a big leap in thermal resistance at all. 

First, the Lux V emitter was 8C/W, not 11C/w (the star was 11C/W)

Second, slapping down 4 dies is going to improve thermal resistance even if you don't change a thing about each die. In fact, Seoul wouldn't have to change a thing to go from 7C/W for a single die emitter to 3C/W for a quad die emitter.

Just look at the Lux V vs. Lux I. 8C/W (4 dies) vs. 15C/W (1 die), all using the exact same dies and attach methods. By having 4 dies, you have 4x the area for each watt to be transferred to the heat sink. In theory, your thermal resistance should be 1/4 what it is with a single die solution, but it's not because the slug has some thermal resistance as well, and all 4 dies are sharing the same slug.

With the Lux V/Lux I comparison, you can do some math to solve for each part of the thermal resistance (junction->top of slug and slug thermal resistance)

Let X be the junction->top of slug resistance, and Y be the slug resistance

8C/W = X/4 + Y
15C/W = X + Y

X=9.33C/W (junction->top of slug)
Y=5.67C/W (slug resistance)

Likewise, we can apply the same method to the Seoul P4/P7:

3C/W = X/4 + Y
7C/W = X + Y

X=5.3C/W (junction->top of slug)
Y=1.7C/W (slug)

The thermal resistance of an individual die hasn't changed. It's just now you get to count 4 dies thermal path for the same power. It's pointless to merely look at the thermal resistance, since by design, you will be running these at 4X the power of a Seoul P4. 

If you were to wire together 4 Seoul P4s and call them a single "unit", the thermal resistance of that device would actually be 1.75C/W (7C/W / 4). The thermal resistance is lower because they're not all sharing a single slug...The power is spread out over 4 slugs instead of being forced through a single slug's thermal path. 


A low thermal resistance doesn't mean cooling will be easy (since it says nothing about the intended design power), nor that the junctions will remain cooler (for the same reason). If you run this thing at 1.4A (350mA/die), then that's 4.62W. The junctions will be 14C above the slug. Take a Seoul P4 (7C/W) at 350mA, it's junction is only 8C above the slug. From a per-die perspective, things are actually WORSE with a P7 vs. a P4, as the junction temperature will be higher when per-die current is the same.

If you run this thing at max (2.8A), then that's 10W of power, and the junctions will be 30C above the temp of the slug. At 700mA (same per-die current), a P4's junction is only 17C above the slug.


10W is a lot of power to dissipate in a small area (as those who have overdriven Lux Vs will be sure to know). Cooling these will not be easy, by any means. You will have to pay special attention to the thermal interface between the slug and heat sink to minimize additional thermal resistance, since you will have 5-10W going across it, rather than 1-3W that we're used to for normal power LEDs.


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## Isthereanybodyoutthere (Mar 26, 2008)

ElektroLumens said:


> Jake,
> 
> I suppose I can make some heat sinks? But for what? A Mag? I have not seen what the beam is with the Mag reflector. I'm sure it works, but probably a huge amount of the light goes to sidespill. That might be okay. A hotlips type sink, 'Hotzip', would be what is needed.
> 
> ...



Here 
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=192740


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## ElektroLumens (Mar 26, 2008)

Isthereanybodyoutthere said:


> Here
> http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=192740



Oh, cool. I get so busy I do not check out what others are doing, sometimes. My previous post shows I didn't know somebody already tried it (should have known), but now I see the light. 

I guess a drop in for a Maglite with the P7 would be a good idea. I have a few of the LEDs from LITEmania coming, so I'll have to try it myself.

Wayne


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## Isthereanybodyoutthere (Mar 27, 2008)

What do you think of the idea to use a 2° Carclo 50mm mirrored optic
Like the one shown in the other thread ?? 

Or maybe one of these 
http://www.litemania.com/front/php/product.php?product_no=44&main_cate_no=71&display_group=1

Ps how long is the time normally from when you pay at litemania until you get the things


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## Richard21 (Apr 7, 2008)

*SSC P7 CSW0J 12W LED Star available from kaidomain here

Also on a star $28.00 

Anyone bought one? feedback??:duh2:

*


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## phantom23 (Apr 18, 2008)

Richard21 said:


> *SSC P7 CSW0J 12W LED Star available from kaidomain here
> 
> Also on a star $28.00
> 
> ...



I did. Looks fine.

PS. Remember that SSC reorganized their binning. C-bin is no longer 740-960lm but 700-800 only.


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