# Keyed or keyless drill chuck?



## Mirage_Man (Aug 26, 2010)

I am in need of a new drill chuck that has a capacity of at least 5/8". My current Jacobs keyed chuck is 1/2". I'm hoping some of the more experienced machinists (cough...Barry ) will have some advice on whether a keyless chuck has the gripping power of a keyed chuck?

Edit: I thought I should mention that the chuck will be used almost exclusively tail stock mounted on my lathe. Not that it matters but it's got a 3MT mount.


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## kromeke (Aug 26, 2010)

For 5/8ths capacity, I'd look at a large Jacobs chuck. A 16n would be a good choice. 

I would look for new old stock or a used one. Jacobs has offshored manufacturing to China. Early reports say quality not the same.

If money is no object, and this is for a production environment, get an Albrecht keyless chuck. I haven't used one that big, but if they are as good as the smaller ones, they are the best, provided you are using it in the RH direction, they let go in the LH direction.

Edit: I really like the SPI brand Ultra Precision drill chuck. I didn't recommend it at first because I didn't know they made a 5/8ths capacity model. I have 2 of the 1/2 capacity models in my shop and I think they are bargains. Albrecht style and well made in Taiwan. Penn tool (whom I've never dealt with) has them listed at $109.85 http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=1574

Edit #2: Enco has it on sale. Says they are discontinued: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=319-3106&PMPXNO=19506511 $72.95

I'm sure with Enco you can return it if unsatisfied. You'll eat the return shipping though.


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## gt40 (Aug 26, 2010)

I would look on ebay for an Albrecht. I got a 5/8" one cheap. I am extremely happy with it. It just holds and is easy to work. 

What type of mount? 

To get you started, here are a few:

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=5%2F8%22+Albrecht&_sacat=0&_odkw=Albrecht&_osacat=0&bkBtn=&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313


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## precisionworks (Aug 26, 2010)

> the chuck will be used almost exclusively tail stock mounted on my lathe. Not that it matters but it's got a 3MT mount.


For lathe use, a keyed Jacobs Super Chuck is hard to beat. The best approach (IMO) is to have a small chuck like the 11N or 14N, plus a big chuck like the 18N or 20N. The little chucks do a nice job on small shanks, while the big ones grip like death ... the 20N has 4X the grip torque of the "standard" 14N.

http://www.jacobschuck.com/images/products/super chucks Update (ENG).pdf

My 14N and 20N trade places all the time :nana:



> some advice on whether a keyless chuck has the gripping power of a keyed chuck?


IMO, the Albrecht keyless has at least as much grip torque at the Super Chuck 14N, and probably as much as the 16N or 18N. They just cannot be made to slip. But any keyless chuck, including the Albrecht, may not be the best tool for tailstock use.

For drilling & holding straight shank reamers, the keyless does a nice job. Tapping is the operation that causes problems. If you don't power tap in (& power reverse out) the Albrecht will do fine. If you plan to do much tapping with the chuck holding the tap stem, stay with the Super Chuck.


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## darkzero (Aug 27, 2010)

gt40 said:


> I would look on ebay


 
Yup, gotta love ebay, got my 5/8 Bison chuck for $56 shipped brand new & I love it although the only other chucks I've used were China keyless chucks here at home & the Jacobs 14N & 16N in shop class. Next course starts in 2 weeks.


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## cmacclel (Aug 27, 2010)

I bought the SPI precision keyless from Enco and am thrilled with the quality. I also have a 5/8 Rohm that I'm not sol thrilled with. I would recommend the SPI!

Mac


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## Mirage_Man (Aug 27, 2010)

cmacclel said:


> I bought the SPI precision keyless from Enco and am thrilled with the quality. I also have a 5/8 Rohm that I'm not sol thrilled with. I would recommend the SPI!
> 
> Mac



So it works good in your tailstock? How well do you think it will work holding that 5/8" drill I told you about?


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## cmacclel (Aug 27, 2010)

Hold you say 

I was 3" into a hunk of Ti when a chip got caught. The chuck never slipped but did come off the arbor TWICE!

I had to really hit the chuck onto the arbor. I have not had a problem since.

Mac


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## precisionworks (Aug 27, 2010)

> The chuck never slipped but did come off the arbor TWICE!


Same thing happened to my Bison keyless used on the mill ... put it on eBay & got my money back, bought an Albrecht with integral shank.

No way that one will ever slip :nana:


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## gadget_lover (Aug 28, 2010)

I like my nice keyless 5/8 chuck. I was not expecting it to be as tall as it turned out to be. On a small mill or lathe it can take up a lot of 'Z' when combined with a large drill.

Daniel


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## precisionworks (Aug 28, 2010)

> I was not expecting it to be as tall as it turned out to be.


Some setups are _Z challenged _

For those, instead of a drill chuck, the ER-40 collet chuck makes a much shorter setup. First, it projects a shorter amount below the spindle nose. Second (and of even more value) is that the twist drill can be pushed way up inside the collet so that the collet grips the flutes of the drill instead of the shank.

If a screw machine drill is used, the drill projection is often tiny. That also give a more rigid setup & the drill point is less likely to wander when starting a hole.


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## Mirage_Man (Aug 28, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> For those, instead of a drill chuck, the ER-40 collet chuck makes a much shorter setup.



Thanks to you Barry that's what I use in my mill. I have not had the need to take the collet chuck out of the mill since I got it . I suppose I could have used in it in the lathe except for the fact that it has an integral R-8 shank.


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## kromeke (Aug 28, 2010)

I have no troubles using the SPI keyless chuck in the lathe. I specifically have 2 of the same chuck, one with R8 shank and the other with a MT3 for the lathe.


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## Mirage_Man (Aug 28, 2010)

Well I went to buy one of the SPIs and they're freakin discontinued!


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## precisionworks (Aug 28, 2010)

Click on this link & go to page 21: http://www.plazamachinery.com/files/metal8-11-2010.pdf
_
ALBRECHT SUPER SPECIAL
We have some excellent, keyless ½” Albrecht chucks, made in Germany. We selected our best chucks in stock, disassembled, cleaned. They are quality, smooth operating used chucks, $100.00 (new are about $250.00) Specify shank needed, Morse 2, Morse 3, ½” straight add, $6.00. For R8 shank, $23.00. Shipping in the 48 states is $7.00 (see our return policy if not completely satisfied).

Albrecht, made in Germany, 5/8 capacity, very beautiful with R8 shank, $140.00

_An Albrecht for $100 is a better deal than can often be found on eBay, and Joe is easy to work with. I have my paycheck direct deposited to his account


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## Mirage_Man (Aug 28, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Click on this link & go to page 21: http://www.plazamachinery.com/files/metal8-11-2010.pdf
> _
> ALBRECHT SUPER SPECIAL
> We have some excellent, keyless ½” Albrecht chucks, made in Germany. We selected our best chucks in stock, disassembled, cleaned. They are quality, smooth operating used chucks, $100.00 (new are about $250.00) Specify shank needed, Morse 2, Morse 3, ½” straight add, $6.00. For R8 shank, $23.00. Shipping in the 48 states is $7.00 (see our return policy if not completely satisfied).
> ...



Yes, but is that an integral r8 shank? If it is I can't use it in my tail stock.


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## precisionworks (Aug 29, 2010)

> is that an integral r8 shank?


No way to tell from the description, but an email to Joe will get a pretty quick response. If the shank is the "normal" Jacobs taper, a pair of Jacobs chuck wedges make fast work of separating shank from chuck body.

http://www.jacobschuck.com/product_details.asp?pid=29


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## Mick (Aug 29, 2010)

A wee bit off topic here but check the specs and price of this chuck.

http://www.glacern.com/drill_chucks

Do you believe .0005 TIR?

Also check their ER collet specs.


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## darkzero (Aug 29, 2010)

Those Glacern chucks look nice. Have TiN cotaed jaws & the price is very good. I was going to get one with a MT3 integral shank but they sold out very fast when they first started offering them so I ended up getting something else.


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## Mirage_Man (Aug 30, 2010)

Mick said:


> A wee bit off topic here but check the specs and price of this chuck.
> 
> http://www.glacern.com/drill_chucks
> 
> ...



Meh, their MT3 only takes up to 1/2" :sigh:.


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## wquiles (Aug 30, 2010)

Mirage_Man said:


> Meh, their MT3 only takes up to 1/2" :sigh:.



Brian,

I have my used but in great shape Jacobs 16N (just needs a new MT3 arbor) available for sale. Send me an email (in my signature) and I will make you a great deal 

Link to pictures:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2771970&postcount=129


More recent pictures:








I also have for sale my SPI keyless chuck ("very" smooth), with R8 arbor available for sale as well, but this one only goes to 1/2" (unlike the 16N that goes to 5/8"):


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## unterhausen (Aug 31, 2010)

does the SPI take a Jacobs taper? Do you know what size?


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## wquiles (Aug 31, 2010)

unterhausen said:


> does the SPI take a Jacobs taper? Do you know what size?



The arbor on the SPI reads "JT6" and the one on the Jacobs 16N reads "JT3".

Will


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## Armed_Forces (Sep 22, 2010)

I can personally vouch for the Glacern drill chucks for those interested, I've bought 3 of them so far! 
Fantastic quality and unbeatable value in a keyless chuck.
Sol is the bloke you want to talk to if you have any questions as he is very helpful and responsive.

..and YES those TIR specs are actually "conservative". 
All of mine have been UNDER .0005" w/ the average around .00039  


The wining combination is the Electroless Nickel (for corrosion protection!), amazing concentricity, and, the icing on the cake, the friggin' spanner wrench holes. ..no more pipe wrenches! 


@Brian/OP,
You can always ream your tail stock to MT4 to take advantage of the increased grip that a 5/8" drill will very likely need if taxed. :nana:


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## darkzero (Sep 23, 2010)

Regarding those Glacern integral shank drill chucks with the Tin coated jaws, Shars came out with a similar product a couple of months ago with their branding on them & slightly better pricing. Not sure if they're made in the same factories but they look very similar.

http://www.shars.com/product_categories/view/4030201/Keyless_Drill_Chuck_with_Integral_Shank


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## Armed_Forces (Sep 23, 2010)

..that's order of magnitude difference in TIR Will, no f'in comparison! 
I'm tellin' ya those Glacern chucks are nice! Grips like death and with fit/finish to rival Albrecht. 
I was very surprised considering the price. The only thing I can't comment on is their long term durability or use in a production environment because mine are used at home and I've only had 'em for a little over a year. With such a small difference in price there's no way I would go for one of the Shars. Besides, those Shars units are likely just the rejects and scrap parts left over from Glacern's initial order. 
Like Yankees, those Chinamen don't like to waste anything! 



..don't ask me about Glacern's vises, I've yet to wear out any of my Kurts, but word on the street is they are every bit as nice as the Kurt. :devil:


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## darkzero (Sep 23, 2010)

Armed_Forces said:


> those Shars units are likely just the rejects and scrap parts left over from Glacern's initial order.
> Like Yankees, those Chinamen don't like to waste anything!


 
:laughing:

Yup I have also have that mentality but it rarely works out for me. 

Ya know, I never even paid attention to that. Just remember seeing them in an email, wasn't interested so I didn't even bother to look.


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## precisionworks (Sep 23, 2010)

> those Shars units are likely just the rejects and scrap parts left over from Glacern's initial order.


+1

Rumor has it that the Shars truck comes out to the scrap dealer on the same day that the Glacern dumpsters are emptied :nana:


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## precisionworks (Sep 23, 2010)

> ..don't ask me about Glacern's vises


I'm sure they are nicely made, as they are cast in Taiwan & finished (assembled) in the USA. But pricing is about the same as I paid for a new Kurt on eBay:http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Glacern-GSV...4?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item3f00fa30b2



> I can personally vouch for the Glacern drill chucks


The first nice keyless I used was a very old Albrecht on an even older varispeed Bridgeport. Drilled & tapped thousands of holes with that chuck & it never once slipped. The chuck had been rebuilt more times than a used car :devil:

Bought a Jacobs High Torque-High Precision ... super low TIR, just a few tenths, but far less grip than the Albrecht.

Bought a Bison Keyless NC chuck, grip equal to the Albrecht but more TIR.

Finally came full circle & bought what should have been bought in the first place - the Albrecht Classic Plus (with integral shank). Almost zero TIR, never slips, the chuck will never come off the arbor as it's one piece. It's the gold standard among keyless chucks, probably because more care goes into the manufacturing & there are endless inspections at every step in the process.


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## Armed_Forces (Sep 23, 2010)

Yes Barry, the Albrecht is still the industry standard but it's nice to find a comparable product for a lower price, NEW from the manufacturer with warranty & service. No need to spend countless hours/days/months(!) rolling the dice and waiting for that elusive killer eBay deal. ..not that I haven't done that a plenty! 



Also, here's some very nice PORN I forgot to mention in my earlier post :devil: ... 

http://www.glacern.com/index.php?page=video_index&video=1&video_name=chess_rook


..take note, they slowed down the SFM because they are machining dry to avoid splattering the camera with coolant! 
Check out the other videos too.


Enjoy!


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## precisionworks (Sep 23, 2010)

> nice to find a comparable product for a lower price, NEW from the manufacturer with warranty & service


My Albrecht was purchased NEW from Royal Products with full warranty (Royal is the USA distributor for Albrecht). The Albrecht I bought is the CP130-R8 (Classis Plus, Integral Shank, 1/32" - 1/2"). 

List price is $363, but Royal discounted that by 35% to $235.95. Why the big discount, making the price lower than any Enco or MSC sale price? Because I sent in an Albrecht (given to me by a friend) that needed rebuilding ... the cost to rebuild was more than I wanted to pay, so they offered me a brand new chuck at a great price.

FWIW, the chuck I sent in did not have the integral shank, but that didn't seem to matter to Royal :nana:

When I find another junk Albrecht, I plan to do this again.

http://www.royalprod.com/img/category/upload/155_175.pdf


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## precisionworks (Sep 23, 2010)

I have nothing against Glacern Machine Tools & in fact hope that they are very successful. At least they are an American company, keeping people employed & supporting their community with tax payments. And it's understandable that their products are partially made off shore where labor is cheap, relative to USA labor rates. At least they finish & inspect their products here, so they do maintain control over what gets shipped & what gets scrapped.

What they don't have is 100 years of chuck building experience & expertise. No one but Albrecht has that. Look at the chart below & it's obvious why they cost more, and why they last nearly forever ... even in a production environment. I know of no other manufacturer that takes nearly two dozen machining ops to produce a single jaw. Or any that lap the threads to ensure maximum clamping power.


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## Armed_Forces (Sep 23, 2010)

Very nice Barry, always good posts from you, but you're preaching to the choir! ..I've been using Albrechts on & off for 20+ years! 


..so, I know they're good, but my wallet takes a bad enough beating as is and it's a very welcome change to find a product that is 95% comparable quality at a 200% discount! :nana:


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## Clark (Sep 25, 2010)

In the 1980s, I converted to keyless a battery powered Makita electric drill from the 1980s.

In 2005, I converted to keyless another battery powered Makita electric drill from the 1980s.

In 2010 I have converted to [Glacern] keyless my Rockwell 21-100 vertical mill from the 1960s.

In 2010 I have converted to keyless my Precision Matthews PM1236 metal lathe from 2009.

In 2010 I have converted to keyless my Rockwell/Delta drill press from the 1970s.

I have *not yet* converted to keyless my Jet drill press from the 1970s.

What am I waiting for?


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 22, 2010)

Well, I finally bit the bullet and ordered a 1/8"-5/8" Albrecht Keyless chuck from Enco today. They have a 20% off sale going through the 31st. I know Barry will have undoubtedly gotten a new or like new one for some crazy cheap amount but I don't seem to be that lucky on ebay. So for what I paid ($237 delivered including a Jacobs brand 3MT>6JT arbor) with the Enco sale I'm happy to be getting a brand new one with warranty. I will post some pics and thoughts once I've gotten it and had a chance to use it.

Edit: As noted I ordered the chuck without an integral shank. I hope it will work OK. Enco did not offer the 5/8" chuck with a 3MT shank even though Albrecht apparently does offer one.


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## precisionworks (Oct 22, 2010)

> I know Barry will have undoubtedly gotten a new or like new one for some crazy cheap amount


Only in my dreams, Brian  I got 25% off retail, and that's about as good as it gets on an Albrecht. You'll soon forget how much it cost because nothing else on earth works as well for as long ... which makes Albrecht the least expensive keyless available at any price.

My most expensive chucks are ones I bought (trying to save money) that never measured up to Albrecht. I should have known better. Even the most ham fisted operator in the mine shop couldn't break the Albrecht that had been around since before the internet :nana:

Be happy. Everyone deserves at least one Albrecht in their lifetime.


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## wquiles (Oct 22, 2010)

Mirage_Man said:


> ... from Enco today. They have a 20% off sale going through the 31st ...


Cool! Can you please let us know what the code is?

Thanks,
Will


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 22, 2010)

wquiles said:


> Cool! Can you please let us know what the code is?
> 
> Thanks,
> Will



The code is "FSCOCT" however I just noticed it's only for orders over $150.


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## wquiles (Oct 22, 2010)

Mirage_Man said:


> The code is "FSCOCT" however I just noticed it's only for orders over $150.



Thank you Brian


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 23, 2010)

wquiles said:


> Thank you Brian



No problem :wave:.


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## mototraxtech (Oct 23, 2010)

wow I just plugged that code into my wish list and it brought the price of everything down to better than ebay prices on most everything. How ofter do these discounts come out. I wont be buying anything now but probably around the turn of the year I will be getting a new bigger machine and all new tooling to go with it.


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## wquiles (Oct 23, 2010)

No kidding! I have been looking for a good deal on a 6", quick action Heinrich drill press vise, and the MSRP is about $295. Best on-line price I found was $269, but with the 20% coupon it comes to $215 (plus $20 for shipping), which is amazing since most of the beat-up units that are showing up in Ebay are from folks asking $180-$200 !!!!!!!

There is a free shipping coupon right now that is valid until end of Oct (FSCSEP - Free UPS Shipping on your $25 Enco Order! Expires 10/31/10) but ENCO is not letting me use it with the 20% coupon Brian gave us. If I can now find a free shipping coupon that could be applied along with the 20% coupon, I would be set :devil:


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## precisionworks (Oct 23, 2010)

> I got 25% off retail, and that's about as good as it gets on an Albrecht.



Wrong again 

The discount was 35%, because I sent an old Albrecht to Royal Products for a rebuild, they said it was not worth rebuilding, and offered the discount on any new Albrecht available. See post #31 in this thread: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3536746&postcount=31


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## darkzero (Oct 23, 2010)

mototraxtech said:


> How ofter do these discounts come out.


 
20% discounts from Enco don't come around that often so if you're looking to get something better hop on it now.

If some of you guys didn't receive the discount email that Brian posted, try registering another email. From Enco it seems that not everyone gets the same discount emails. I registered another email when visiting Enco at Westec. Occasionally I get different discount emails than with my other email.


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## mototraxtech (Oct 23, 2010)

I did a little test. I have a wish list of approx 3200 is new tooling for the new lathe at MSC. I never planned on pay there retail nor getting most of the thing through them but they have nearly EVERYTHING and so it makes for a nice list.

I took all of the things on the list to Enco and put them in EXACT matching part number to MSC so I know they are the same part. The enco price came out to be $250 cheaper than msc for stock prices for both

I then add the %20 off discount to the enco order and the NEW25 to the msc order(the new25 ALWAYS works by the way). The new total was about 1000 cheaper for both and ended up the enco was 300 less than MSC.

So if you get the really periodic 35 or even better 40 off that msc offers I suspect that you would save a LITTLE through msc. On the other hand if you are buy at normal prices ENCO all the way. I was also looking through the enco discount catalog and they have SOME SCREAMING DEALS in there on a few things. I am talking like 50 for something that they sell for 200 and msc for 250.

Though you might find my test interesting.


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## HarryN (Oct 27, 2010)

Hi, I am fixing up a little spectralight lathe that gadget_lover generously gave me some time ago. It is based on a sherline lathe in a box with and x-y cnc stage, sans the control.

I was looking through various threads about various options for using the tail stock to drill with, and it occured to me that if I don't do all that much drilling, perhaps I can just make up a tool holder for holding drill bits.

The alignment on these old hobby lathes is "not optimal", so I was thinking that I could just use the bit in the 3 jaw chuck to drill a hole in the post and make a sort of "bit holder", that is fairly quick to align later. The bit would be held in with simple setscrews from the top.

I looked at the drill chucks listed, and they are nice, but at over $ 100 for the few holes I have in mind at this point, it just seems a bit pricey.

Thoughts ?


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 27, 2010)

Well, got the chuck today. It's a very well made chuck. Unfortunately it's not gonna work for me :mecry:. I will be returning it. I tried to use it with a carbide drill and either the drill would spin in the chuck or the chuck would spin off the arbor. Because of this I ended up chipping two very expensive carbide drills. I'm very disappointed. I put my Jacobs keyed chuck back on and neither the drill nor the arbor slipped. Go figure :shrug:. I just hope Enco doesn't give me a hard time about returning it. 

Back to the drawing board...


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## precisionworks (Oct 27, 2010)

> with a carbide drill ... the drill would spin in the chuck


Albrecht offers an option especially for chucks used with solid carbide tooling - diamond coated jaws. 

If you order the chuck with the diamond coated jaws and integral shank, there should be no more problems :twothumbs

http://www.albrechtchucks.com/tech_info_diamond_coated_jaws.cfm

Albrecht does not offer a 1/8" - 5/8" with diamond coated jaws, but does have the 1/32" - 1/2" with integral MT3 shank and diamond jaws, model CPD130-3MT. List price at Royal Products is $479, but send in a junk Albrecht chuck and get 35% off, so the chuck will end up costing $311.35.


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 27, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Albrecht offers an option especially for chucks used with solid carbide tooling - diamond coated jaws.
> 
> If you order the chuck with the diamond coated jaws and integral shank, there should be no more problems :twothumbs
> 
> ...



Yes Barry, I saw that. Unfortunately the whole point was to get a chuck capable of holding a 5/8" carbide drill. Since Albrecht's diamond coated jaw chucks only go up to 1/2" in any mount it's a moot point. I guess I'll just pick up another Jacobs Super chuck with the right capacity and call it a day. It really sucks quite frankly that the Albrecht did not work. It sure is a nice chuck that oozes quality. 

What I don't get is that my Jacobs has no problem holding the carbide drill and won't spin off the arbor? The Albrecht spins off the arbor and the drill spins in the chuck. What's up wit dat?


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## precisionworks (Oct 28, 2010)

> my Jacobs has no problem holding the carbide drill ...


As drill chucks get larger, even the slight difference from .500" capacity to .625" capacity, two changes happen that affect _hard pin grip torque_ (or HPGT). 

HPGT is the ability of a chuck to grip a pin hardened to 50 HRc with enough force that the pin will not slip.

First, the jaw surface area increases, so there is more jaw surface in contact with the shank of the twist drill. More surface area means higher HPGT.

Second, the larger chuck can be tightened more than the smaller chuck. Bigger components, larger thrust bearings, etc., allow greater tightening of the jaws which also increases HPGT.

An example of this can be seen by comparing two Jacobs Super Chucks. The 14N (.500" cap) has a HPGT of 22.92 Ft-lb, while the 16N (.625" cap) has a HPGT of 30.00 Ft-lb. The smaller chuck has only 3/4 the gripping capacity of the slightly larger chuck.



> The Albrecht spins off the arbor ...


You mentioned that the arbor was a _Jacobs brand 3MT>6JT arbor_. Jacobs products are now made in (drum roll ... ) China :huh: Without examining the arbor it's impossible to measure the taper, runout, and the surface finish. Best guess is that the taper is off by the tiniest amount, probably just a fraction of a degree, and that the surface finish does not match the reamed & honed surface of the Albrecht socket. When this mismatch happens, surface contact between the male & female tapers decreases dramatically. It takes surprisingly little torque to spin a chuck mounted on an incorrectly made arbor. 

Albrecht is well aware of the problem of their chucks being used with an ill fitting arbor, and offers the integral shank to avoid this problem.


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 28, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> An example of this can be seen by comparing two Jacobs Super Chucks. The 14N (.500" cap) has a HPGT of 22.92 Ft-lb, while the 16N (.625" cap) has a HPGT of 30.00 Ft-lb. The smaller chuck has only 3/4 the gripping capacity of the slightly larger chuck.



So why then if the 14N that I have has less gripping force would it have no problem holding the drill where the larger higher gripping force Albrecht slips ?


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## precisionworks (Oct 28, 2010)

You got me ...


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## cmacclel (Oct 28, 2010)

Buy the SPI like I have. I have no problem holding carbide and have never had a bit spin. I have had the chuck spin on the arbor once.

Mac


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 28, 2010)

cmacclel said:


> Buy the SPI like I have. I have no problem holding carbide and have never had a bit spin. I have had the chuck spin on the arbor once.
> 
> Mac



Mac, I understand you have had success with it but if the uber expensive, "industry standard" Albrecht won't hold the drill then I have little faith that the SPI will.


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## cmacclel (Oct 28, 2010)

Mirage_Man said:


> Mac, I understand you have had success with it but if the uber expensive, "industry standard" Albrecht won't hold the drill then I have little faith that the SPI will.


 
Believe what you will I think my SPI chuck has drilled more Ti than you will drill in 10 years buddy  I probably have drilled 40+ft of Ti to .5 ID with the SPI without a carbide drill spinning once.

Mac


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 28, 2010)

cmacclel said:


> Believe what you will I think my SPI chuck has drilled more Ti than you will drill in 10 years buddy  I probably have drilled 40+ft of Ti to .5 ID with the SPI without a carbide drill spinning once.
> 
> Mac



I know .


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## Notsure Fire (Oct 28, 2010)

Pretty slick machinery. I envy


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## mototraxtech (Oct 28, 2010)

Carbide is very hard and slippery(no pun) and that is why it is slipping(IMO) the way that the KEYLESS chucks work is that you tighten them by hand and during drilling the twisting force of the drill causes the chuck jaws to DIG deeper and tighten. Basically they clamp buy making VERY small bites into the drill bit itself.


So the carbide bit just wants to slip as the surface of the bit is harder or equal to the hardness of the chuck meaning it CANT bite.

So the keyed chuck is made to run a pinnon and push the jaws into the workpeice. I think that is what the problem is. The keyless is not actually gripping the bit at all.

For instance I find that I need much more pressure on my cheap drill chuck key wrench when chucking HSS bits than with the much harder Cobalt bits.

As far as the arbor goes I think I would only buy one with an integral shank. Sucks that you wouldn't be able to change it to a new machine if you got one that had bigger or smaller tapers but really how often does that happen. AND with the integrated shank you also get near 0 runout which is always nice.



Just my 1/2 cent!


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## precisionworks (Oct 28, 2010)

> It really sucks quite frankly that the Albrecht did not work. It sure is a nice chuck that oozes quality.


You may want to phone Albrecht tech support: http://www.albrechtchucks.com/contact_us.cfm

If anyone has the answer, they will.

If you do go with the Jacobs Super Chuck, each larger size has increased HPGT, with the 18N having 40.00 Ft-lb versus the 16N at 30.00 Ft-lb. The 20N has 80.00 Ft-lb but may be larger in total size than you want.





The "standard" 14N (.500") is on the left, while the 20N (1.000" cap) is on the right. Also, the 20N will not grip smaller than .375", while both the 18N and 16N go down to .125".


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 28, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> You may want to phone Albrecht tech support: http://www.albrechtchucks.com/contact_us.cfm
> 
> If anyone has the answer, they will.
> 
> ...


 
Wow that is a Monster! I was thinking since I have the 14N that I would get the 18N.


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## precisionworks (Oct 28, 2010)

> since I have the 14N that I would get the 18N.


+1

The 18N is probably a better overall choice than the 20N, as the minimum size is still decently small. I bought the 20N as it allows chucking any number of tools that have a 1" shank (like many chucking reamers have). But it's long & heavy, so there's a trade off.


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## wquiles (Oct 28, 2010)

Mirage_Man said:


> Wow that is a Monster! I was thinking since I have the 14N that I would get the 18N.



I just recently got an used 18N - it is HUGE!


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## darkzero (Oct 28, 2010)

How does an Albrecht slip & the keyed Jacobs doesn't? Shouldn't it be the other way around? The design on a keyless chuck is that it grips harder as it's turned right? 

When I made some Ti fire pistons, on one of them I was an idiot & work hardened one of the pieces. Well I tried to save it, never spun the drill bit or arbor & snapped a 1/2" solid carbide drill. Scared the poop out of me as I wasn't expecting it. Had to use a strap wrench to loosen the chuck to remove the broken bit.


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 28, 2010)

darkzero said:


> How does an Albrecht slip & the keyed Jacobs doesn't? Shouldn't it be the other way around? The design on a keyless chuck is that it grips harder as it's turned right?



That's what I thought too but a 1/2" solid carbide drill spins in the Albrecht I just got.


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## mototraxtech (Oct 29, 2010)

reference my earlier post. The only way a keyless grips so hard is to dig into the material through friction. With carbide it is so hard and slick that it can no grip. Thats why they make diamond jaws for them as the diamond coating is harder than the carbide!


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 29, 2010)

mototraxtech said:


> reference my earlier post. The only way a keyless grips so hard is to dig into the material through friction. With carbide it is so hard and slick that it can no grip. Thats why they make diamond jaws for them as the diamond coating is harder than the carbide!



What you said makes sense. However both Mac and Will have had success using other brands of keyless chucks, one a Bison and the other an SPI. One would have to gather, based on the data, that the Albrecht is an inferior chuck in that it can't grip a carbide drill without it spinning :duck:.


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## darkzero (Oct 29, 2010)

Mirage_Man said:


> What you said makes sense. However both Mac and Will have had success using other brands of keyless chucks, one a Bison and the other an SPI. One would have to gather, based on the data, that the Albrecht is an inferior chuck in that it can't grip a carbide drill without it spinning :duck:.


 
And on top of that, I know Mac has probaby drilled diameters on Ti larger than I ever will & at speeds & feeds greater than I would even think of doing. I'm still a wussy when it comes to drilling the harder metals, I'll just stick with taking my time.


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## mototraxtech (Oct 29, 2010)

agreed. This is very interesting as I was going to get that same chuck but if its not as good as others than I might have to find a different one!


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## precisionworks (Oct 29, 2010)

> One would have to gather, based on the data, that the Albrecht is an inferior chuck in that it can't grip a carbide drill without it spinning



Hard to do a statistically accurate survey when sampling two people ... two hundred might be enough, probably no less. 



> one a Bison and the other an SPI


SPI (like Phase II) is a contractor, not a manufacturer. Whom they contracted with last year, this year & next year are likely to be three different companies. Some SPI items are the best in the world, others are the worst junk imaginable - no matter the country of origin. It's just as accurate to say "SPI is great" as it is to say "SPI is awful". Both statements are true, depending upon the item & who got the manufacturing contract. 

Bison is _somewhat_ more predictable, as they are a manufacturer ... and the items manufactured in Eastern Europe are very nice, often comparable to the best from Japan or the USA. One of my two Bison keyless chucks was fine, very little runout, and will stay on the drill press. The second was a nightmare ...

After using the Bison Keyless CNC chuck for a short time, it spun on the Bison arbor. Reseated the arbor using the 5# copper hammer, but that locked the chuck up tightly ... something that has never happened to me. Phoned Bison, returned the first chuck, they sent a second chuck ... which opened and closed loose/tight/loose/tight ... sent the second chuck back & got a third chuck which seems OK. It's sitting on the eBay table & will go to someone else :sigh:

Jacobs used to make a nice keyless, the high torque-high precision manufactured in Spain. Almost zero runout, comparable to an Albrecht, but the grip was weak as could be ... still keep that one for a spare.

After first buying the Jacobs, then going through two Bisons, I bought the Albrecht with integral shank. They are still made in Germany by people who've been making the same chuck since 1932. If they aren't the best in the world, I don't know who is


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## precisionworks (Oct 29, 2010)

> Since Albrecht's diamond coated jaw chucks _only go up to 1/2"_ in any mount it's a moot point.


Actually not :twothumbs

I phoned Albrecht this morning & spoke with Keith, an applications engineer. He said that the _diamond coated jaws are not a catalog item but that they are available in the larger sizes_. He also mentioned that Albrecht USA stocks a large portion of what Albrecht Germany makes (but not everything), so it's always worth a phone call to see if something not in the catalog is available.

800-468-3008


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 29, 2010)

I guess the question is it it worth it to spend the large amount over what it would cost for a Jacobs keyed chuck to go with an Albrecht that may or may not work for me? IOW do I spend $500 on a diamond coated jaw chuck or $250 on a Jacobs? As much as I like quality tooling I have a hard time spending $250 let alone $500 on a drill chuck.


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## precisionworks (Oct 29, 2010)

> is it it worth it to spend the large amount over what it would cost for a Jacobs keyed chuck


For tail stock use, no :thumbsdow

IMO, a well made keyed chuck is a better solution for tailstock drilling.

You may also want to look for drills that need no chuck, but are direct Morse Taper mount - specifically a carbide tipped spade drill.






The spade drill above has a HSS insert, but solid carbide is readily available. AMEC is the largest maker of spade drills in the world, but most every brand takes interchangeable inserts available from AMEC.

http://www.alliedmachine.com/productClass.aspx?cid=2

These drills are so much faster than a conventional twist drill, and generate less heat because there are no flutes in contact with the material. Rigid too. Seems like the one above cost $25 on eBay including the new HSS spade tip.


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 29, 2010)

Thanks Barry. I'll look into those. Since I work mainly with ti carbide is must.


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## wquiles (Oct 29, 2010)

Mirage_Man said:


> Thanks Barry. I'll look into those. Since I work mainly with ti carbide is must.



Brian, I recently tried one of these in my latest build (thanks to Barry, of course!), and it is the most stiff and rigid drill I have ever used in the lathe - no chuck-held drill bit has ever felt as solid as this one:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/298475

In fact, these work so well, that i will be getting additional ones in other sizes 

Will


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## darkzero (Oct 29, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> The spade drill above has a HSS insert, but solid carbide is readily available. AMEC is the largest maker of spade drills in the world, but most every brand takes interchangeable inserts available from AMEC.


 
Barry, is there a standard insert type for these? I got an Iscar or Ingersoll (I forget) one on ebay a while back for cheap (wasn't a Morse Taper though) but when I was looking for carbide inserts they were crazy expensive & MSC or Enco didn't carry them so I just ended up reselling it.


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## mototraxtech (Oct 29, 2010)

were can you get those spade bits. I normally use S & D bits but those look stronger and more rigid.


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## wquiles (Oct 29, 2010)

darkzero said:


> Barry, is there a standard insert type for these?


There is no "standard", as each spade drill holder can only accept inserts within a range. On mine I can go from just under an inch (something like 29/32" to 1 3/8", by using size 2 inserts. If you need a different range, you need a different holder for each range, and even within the same size, there is literally a myriad of possible inserts depending on the material you want to drill.



mototraxtech said:


> were can you get those spade bits.


Ebay, but you have to buy the right size holder and right inserts - nothing is universal.



mototraxtech said:


> I normally use S & D bits but those look stronger and more rigid.


There is simply no comparison between these and even premium S&D drills from Precision Twist - these spade drills are literally "solid" and their engagement right into the tailstock makes for a very rigid setup.

Will


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## precisionworks (Oct 29, 2010)

Before buying a spade drill shank (which sometimes come with a spade insert & sometimes are sold without) be sure you know what it is you're buying - the sellers on eBay rarely do. AMEC's are easy, as their online catalog has hundreds of SKU's listed (MT1, MT2, MT3, MT4, MT5, plus short/medium/long, plus different shank styles, coolant inducers, etc.)

They are old technology, nothing like the new drills that use inserts - but as Darkzero said, those inserts are awfully high priced. They do need to drill from solid stock - it's OK to use a spotting drill or center drill to give the tip a place to start, but the tip guides the drill so it has to have solid stock for support.


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## darkzero (Oct 29, 2010)

wquiles said:


> There is no "standard", as each spade drill holder can only accept inserts within a range. On mine I can go from just under an inch (something like 29/31" to 1 3/8", by using size 2 inserts. If you need a different range, you need a different holder for each range, and even within the same size, there is literally a myriad of possible inserts depending on the material you want to drill.


 
Yep, size ranges I understand. I was refering to insert type. To clarify, I was wondering if spade drills are based on an industry standard much like ANSI/ISO turning inserts. As in will brand A spade drill holder accept brand B, C, D, etc inserts for the applicable size range?

Barry stated "_AMEC is the largest maker of spade drills in the world, but most every brand takes interchangeable inserts available from AMEC_"

That caught my eye. When I was looking for the appropiate insert it seemed like the holder I had could only use inserts by that manufacturer (now that I think about it more I believe it was Ingersoll). If I could have used other brands that are more affordable (if they exist), then now I am regreting selling it. 




precisionworks said:


> Before buying a spade drill shank (which sometimes come with a spade insert & sometimes are sold without) be sure you know what it is you're buying - the sellers on eBay rarely do. AMEC's are easy, as their online catalog has hundreds of SKU's listed (MT1, MT2, MT3, MT4, MT5, plus short/medium/long, plus different shank styles, coolant inducers, etc.)
> 
> They are old technology, nothing like the new drills that use inserts - but as Darkzero said, those inserts are awfully high priced. They do need to drill from solid stock - it's OK to use a spotting drill or center drill to give the tip a place to start, but the tip guides the drill so it has to have solid stock for support.


 
So by the sounds of it, looks like the answer to my question is no.


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## precisionworks (Oct 30, 2010)

Will, I'm pretty sure you're referring to an insertable drill, like an Iscar, that uses proprietary inserts. They are single source only, until the patent expires.

Spade inserts are somewhat universal in that the spade has to match the seat in the shank. 



> _ most every brand _*of spade drill *_takes interchangeable inserts available from AMEC_"


AMEC does not make inserts for any type of drill other than a spade. Every insert they sell is not a carbide insert per se, but rather a spade shaped insert made of carbide (or HSS or cobalt). 

Spade drills & insert drills are not interchangeable.


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 30, 2010)

Barry, maybe I'm missing something but I cannot find any of the spade insert drill holders that have a smaller minimum diameter than like 31/32"? I need to be able to do sizes between 1/2"-3/4", sometimes larger but those are the most common.


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## TranquillityBase (Oct 30, 2010)

Mirage_Man said:


> That's what I thought too but a 1/2" solid carbide drill spins in the Albrecht I just got.



Incorrect jaws for the application.

Diamond-coated jaws are for gripping carbide.

EDIT: I just viewed post #71


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## precisionworks (Oct 31, 2010)

> I cannot find any of the spade insert drill holders that have a smaller minimum diameter than like 31/32"



The AMEC online catalog is a tough read ... designed by engineers to be read by engineers, not working machinists :nana:

Smaller spades are available - I use them as tap drills for 1/2", 5/8" and 3/4" holes when doing contract drill & tap jobs (hundreds of holes).

AMEC offers several styles of spade inserts, with the T-A being the most popular. Minimum hole size is .374" (9.5mm) in a solid carbide insert. The first 9 pages in this catalog show the Y-Series spades & holders, which cover the range from .375" to .436" : http://www.alliedmachine.com/images/library/file/Literature/T-A_Complete.pdf

The Z-Series covers .437" to .510" (pages 10-17).

The O-Series covers .511" to .695" , and the 1-Series covers sizes above that, etc. The largest T-A spade and holder is 4.5" 

For larger holes, the H-P (High Performance) holder is pretty common. Minimum hole size is 1", and maximum size is 8.5"  The spade & holder that I posted is the C-Series, which covers 1.500" to 2.375". These are pretty good "hole openers" when a piece of solid round stock needs a starter hole to be followed by a boring bar or reamer.

http://www.alliedmachine.com/images/library/file/HPU/HPU_Holders.pdf

Again, when buying on EBay, make sure that you know what you're buying. Quite a few variations are available, even within the same size range. I've bought dozens of holders & spades on eBay (both for myself & for other local shops) but it can take time to find what you want.


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## Pidg (Oct 31, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Minimum hole size is 1", and maximum size is 8.5"



I'm still laughing - thanks for the funny :thumbsup:. I wonder what torque it takes to drill an 8.5" hole, at a reasonable feed rate? In fact, what is a reasonable feed rate? Whew! 

When I bought my Clausing 8520 mill, the shop had the biggest machine tools I'd ever seen. It was a few years ago, but as best I remember, they had a mill with a channeled table about 6 feet wide. I don't remember the the length of the table, but in my mind's eye, it was over 15 feet long. 

Bill


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## precisionworks (Oct 31, 2010)

> I wonder what torque it takes to drill an 8.5" hole, at a reasonable feed rate?


The engineers at AMEC would have that answer for you in two seconds  

My "little" 2" spade has to be run somewhat slowly, as the spade is HSS, meaning that the sfpm is one half of carbide. Even so, it's the fastest tool I have for making a good sized hole. I ran them in the small 18" lathe at the repair shop, and that machine had no more than a 10hp spindle. It was normal for us to use a cheater bar stuck through the spokes in the tailstock feed wheel (don't try this on your own equipment). Start the tip of the spade, squirt some cutting oil onto the tip, crank the feed until the lathe started to protest, then let up a tad. Those big dogs like to eat :nana:


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