# source of steel to mill block for RT?



## wquiles

My Yuasa RT needs a block, like the one shown in these pictures:






















Until now I have been working on Al only. Where can I buy a small piece of steel to machine this piece?

Will

EDIT: fixed the tittle


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: source of still to mill block for RT?*

I don't know where you can find a "still" but there are several online sources for steel  . But don't you have a local supply house?


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## jhanko

*Re: source of still to mill block for RT?*

I use speedymetals.com when I need something small & fast. They have everything except exotics. No minimum and very fast, reasonable shipping.


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## precisionworks

Metals Depot is also excellent.

http://www.metalsdepot.com/


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## wquiles

Thanks Brian for the correction  My local store sells only surplus. I am sure there must be another store/shop in Dallas that sells metal, but I don't know where yet.

Now, based on those links, I can order these steels:
- 1018
- 1045
- 12L14
- A36

For this simple project, what steel should I be considering?

Will


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## darkzero

I'm lucky to have an Industrial Metal Supply location near me. They're huge, I can get you anything if you need, of course larger heavy stock might not be so practical to ship to you but I'm willing to for you.


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## KC2IXE

wquiles said:


> Thanks Brian for the correction  My local store sells only surplus. I am sure there must be another store/shop in Dallas that sells metal, but I don't know where yet.
> 
> Now, based on those links, I can order these steels:
> - 1018
> - 1045
> - 12L14
> - A36
> 
> For this simple project, what steel should I be considering?
> 
> Will



Go with the 12L14, if you don't have to harden it. It works SO much easier than the others - 1045 isn't bad, A36 is often a gummy mess

Another that works nicely is "stressproof" - it's a form of 1144

One "Issue" with steel, and more of a problem with "non round" stock - Cold Rolled steel tends to warp like mad when you machine it, as the cold rolling build in all sorts of stresses - which is why 1144/stressproof is so nice. Hot rolled (a36) doesn't warp, but is a pig


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## wquiles

KC2IXE said:


> Go with the 12L14, if you don't have to harden it. It works SO much easier than the others - 1045 isn't bad, A36 is often a gummy mess
> 
> Another that works nicely is "stressproof" - it's a form of 1144
> 
> One "Issue" with steel, and more of a problem with "non round" stock - Cold Rolled steel tends to warp like mad when you machine it, as the cold rolling build in all sorts of stresses - which is why 1144/stressproof is so nice. Hot rolled (a36) doesn't warp, but is a pig



Cool - thanks!

I have been spending some time tonight trying to find where to buy steel locally, and I found a couple of places, this one which is not too far from my house:
http://www.trident-metals.com/steel.shtml

They state in their web site that they sell LOTs of steel variants: Allow Steel, Tool Steel, and Carbon Steels. I never worked with steel before (except with knife steels), so I am a little bit at a loss here, but they should have what I need 

Will


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## precisionworks

If I had to choose only one steel to use for the rest of my life, 1144 Stressproof would be my pick. 

http://www.niagaralasalle.com/products/stressproof.html

http://www.onlinemetals.com/alloycat.cfm?alloy=1144

Sweet machining, 44 carbon points if you need or want to flame harden it, 115 ksi tensile strength (which puts it close to 4140 in strength but a ton easier to machine).

The only problem with 1144 Stressproof is that once you try it, you'll rarely use anything else Available in rounds only, AFAIK.


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## gadget_lover

You can also check to see if SIMS metals has a local outlet. They bought some local recyclers in Texas. The one here (San Jose) has a retail outlet with all sorts of 'stuff'. I walked through and almost stumbled on a 2 x2 x 1 FOOT block of aluminum. Outside was a batch of rollers from an assembly line conveyor. They also have smaller stuff and will cut to size. $25 minumum order, IIRC.


Daniel


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## KC2IXE

precisionworks said:


> If I had to choose only one steel to use for the rest of my life, 1144 Stressproof would be my pick.



Yeah, I've only found rounds too. Shame that.

If you don't need to harden or weld it, I still prefer 12L14 though, that stuff is like butter

(aside - woot - got to spend my first serious time in the shop since I was in the hospital last night. Did the first op work for 35 adaptors. The 2nd op is to turn off the parting pip - this is my client http://www.k3camera.com/k3/k3batt.php )


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## precisionworks

> I still prefer 12L14 though, that stuff is like butter



12L14 is the metallic equivalent of warm butter

1212 is the 'reference standard' for machinability, and has a rating of 100.

1144 Stressproof is rated 76, meaning that it's about 24% more difficult to machine (speed, feed, cycle time, etc.)

12L14 is rated 170, meaning it's almost twice as easy to machine as 1212. All the leaded steels (those having the letter L between the second & third digits) are known as 'free machining' steels. And there are free machining grades of aluminum (2011-T3), brass (C360), and stainless (Type 303).

It boils down to selecting a material based on what properties are important for the application ... which is why there are so many choices available


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## KC2IXE

C360 brass - gotta love working that stuff. (it's what the battery adaptors are made of) - can't remember the last time I changed an insert, or sharpened the dedicated drill bit for that jon - maybe 600-700 parts ago?


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## StrikerDown

precisionworks said:


> It boils down to selecting a material based on what properties are important for the application ... which is why there are so many choices available



So, this bring us back to Will's question. 
Does he really need something exotic that can anchor the space shuttle platform during launch? Or is this a "not so" high stress part?
Obviously if it were made of aluminum it might not work at all or might not be suitable for a repetitive use environment in a machine shop, but could he get by in a limited use situation knowing there is a factory part on the other side? 
Is there a need to have both sides clamped the the same torque specs?


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## KG2V

StrikerDown said:


> So, this bring us back to Will's question.
> Does he really need something exotic that can anchor the space shuttle platform during launch? Or is this a "not so" high stress part?
> Obviously if it were made of aluminum it might not work at all or might not be suitable for a repetitive use environment in a machine shop, but could he get by in a limited use situation knowing there is a factory part on the other side?
> Is there a need to have both sides clamped the the same torque specs?


 
No one is quoting anything "exotic" here, just common steels. You really don't want Al, and steel isn't all that hard to work.

My local steel supplier has no problem handing me 12L14, or 1144 - stock items, and he's a small steel house

BTW, there is a recomendation for you - once you start getting into this, places like Online metals (and any of the other on line metal stores) are good for the occasional piece, but call your local steel vendor and say "I'd like a quote - 1 stick each of 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 3/4" 12l14 (or 1144), (with a cut to whatever length you can handle), plus sticks of 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and 3/8x1/2 and a few other sizes of Hot Rolled - make the order worth his time. You'll find you will be paying a VERY small fraction of online material cost


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## StrikerDown

Exotic is a relative term... I almost never turn or or mill steel (yet) So it is all exotic to me. I mean I might even be tempted to make a chuck adapter plate out of something like aluminum! :thinking:

So it sounds like almost any piece of steel will work as long as it is big enough to hold while being machined.

I guess I am curious because the metal surp store I frequent, rarely list the various metal types, except for hot/cold rolled, maybe they just don't carry anything like what you guys are listing above.


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## precisionworks

> "I'd like a quote - 1 stick each of ...


+1

I don't stock lots of steel, as all the local suppliers offer next day truck delivery at no charge ($500 minimum order for free delivery). But I do keep full sticks of 1144 Stressproof round in sizes from 1/8" to 1", plus hot rolled flat stock in different sizes, plus 1" square tube with 1/8" wall. A little SS and a small quantity of aluminum are always on hand. If someone calls at midnight, broken down on I-57, I need enough to patch something back together ... which most CPF members may not need.

If you can make friends with a smaller, local factory or fabrication shop, they will often let you piggyback your steel order with theirs. Some will even order in steel for you, and sell it at cost + 10%, to handle the paperwork.

Beats the heck out of cost + 100%


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## wquiles

Well, following on Brian's suggestion for a local metal source, I found one, just 20 minutes from my work/office:
http://www.metals4u.com/

They have a several locations, including one right here in Dallas. They also have a location in Austin, which sells on Ebay, which I have used already, so it was nice to find the location here in Dallas. I called them up and verified they accepted walk-ins, and after a short drive, I walked away with a piece 12" long of 2" round stock 12L14 steel. This will be a great learning experience turning the round stock into that block for the RT. Once I get some experience under my belt with the 12L14, I can then work with the 1144 stress proof, which they also sell at the same location 

Thanks much for the suggestions 

Will


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## Torque1st

Even out in the wilds you can usually find a welding or fab shop that will sell you some steel.


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## KC2IXE

StrikerDown said:


> Exotic is a relative term... I almost never turn or or mill steel (yet) So it is all exotic to me. I mean I might even be tempted to make a chuck adapter plate out of something like aluminum! :thinking:
> 
> So it sounds like almost any piece of steel will work as long as it is big enough to hold while being machined.
> 
> I guess I am curious because the metal surp store I frequent, rarely list the various metal types, except for hot/cold rolled, maybe they just don't carry anything like what you guys are listing above.



OK, "Hot rolled" and "Cold Rolled" is a process, NOT a grade of material. Almost all the Hot Rolled you see out there is A36. Cold Rolled is 1018 or 1020 (can't remember)

So, when I (or someone else) says "Use A36" they are saying "Grab a stick of common hot rolled, and mill the part out of it"


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## jhanko

wquiles said:


> My Yuasa RT needs a block, like the one shown in these pictures:



Just curious, what is that gold colored piece in the hole of that block?


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## wquiles

JHanko said:


> Just curious, what is that gold colored piece in the hole of that block?



That is just how the light hit the oil in that hole. The block is a solid piece of steel.

Will


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## jhanko

wquiles said:


> That is just how the light hit the oil in that hole. The block is a solid piece of steel.
> 
> Will



Ahhh, I see it now. That's quite an optical illusion... It looked like there was a brass dowel in the hole.


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## Anglepoise

JHanko said:


> Ahhh, I see it now. That's quite an optical illusion... It looked like there was a brass dowel in the hole.



I looked at that pic for a couple of minutes with the same thought.

"What the hell is a brass slug doing in ............"


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## SafetyBob

Will, here is the place I normally get my small quantities of steel, aluminum, brass, copper or whatever else my heart desires......

Metalsupermarket. They are off I-35 and and I-30 accross the street from Southwestern Medical Center on 1216 Dolton Dr. 

Yes, they are somewhat expensive for what you get. Go to a "real" metal supplier when you need large quantities (like 100 feet or so of whatever). The nice thing about my place up here in OKC is that they have a shear and can cut sheet metal or plate to my specs, which is helpful for making splash shields and stuff for machinery!! 

Keep going to the place near you if you like them, but now you have another alternative if you them......

Bob E.


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## wquiles

SafetyBob said:


> Will, here is the place I normally get my small quantities of steel, aluminum, brass, copper or whatever else my heart desires......
> 
> Metalsupermarket. They are off I-35 and and I-30 accross the street from Southwestern Medical Center on 1216 Dolton Dr.
> 
> Yes, they are somewhat expensive for what you get. Go to a "real" metal supplier when you need large quantities (like 100 feet or so of whatever). The nice thing about my place up here in OKC is that they have a shear and can cut sheet metal or plate to my specs, which is helpful for making splash shields and stuff for machinery!!
> 
> Keep going to the place near you if you like them, but now you have another alternative if you them......
> 
> Bob E.



Besides the Metals4U local site, I found this other one, very close to my house - I am going to try to stop by their location tomorrow Friday 

http://www.trident-metals.com/dfw.shtml

Will


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## gadget_lover

A word of caution... They have minimums!

I went to the local metakl supply place (Alco Iron & Metal Company in San Leandro) for some brass to have in my stock pile. I picked up several pieces that would be usable for general purpose use. Four foot of this, a stick of that. Oh, that looks useful! I added it all to the cart.

I went to pay for it and found that I'd gathered almost 50 pounds together. It rang up at $205 including taxes.

But that brings me back to the point. Last time I was there I had a shpooing list and had only $25 worth of aluminum at checkout. They have a $35 minimum. The smart thing would be to accept that price and scoot. Instead I shopped for another 20 minutes and left $70 lighter.

Good luck tomorrow. 

Daniel


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## wquiles

Thanks Daniel - I will report later today how it went in the new place 

I have never cut/mill copper yet, but I would like to get some round copper stock for heatsink matterial. The Metals4U place only had brass stock, which if my memory serves me right, it is not a good thermal material as copper - I just don't remember is brass is still better than Aluminum 

Will


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## gadget_lover

Copper is 4 times better than brass.
Copper is ~ twice as good as aluminum.
Gold is almost as good as copper. 

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-exchanger-material-thermal-conductivities-d_1488.html


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## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> Copper is 4 times better than brass.
> Copper is ~ twice as good as aluminum.
> Gold is almost as good as copper.
> 
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-exchanger-material-thermal-conductivities-d_1488.html



Awesome - thanks. Note to self: don't bother with brass for heatsink material 

Will


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## KC2IXE

gadget_lover said:


> Copper is 4 times better than brass.
> Copper is ~ twice as good as aluminum.
> Gold is almost as good as copper.
> 
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-exchanger-material-thermal-conductivities-d_1488.html



And silver is about 4% better than copper


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## SafetyBob

Will, did you stop by Trident? Just wondering how it went and if there was a noticable difference in pricing or what you thought of the place vs. any of the other places you have been....

Bob E.


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## wquiles

SafetyBob said:


> Will, did you stop by Trident? Just wondering how it went and if there was a noticable difference in pricing or what you thought of the place vs. any of the other places you have been....
> 
> Bob E.



Yes, I did stop by their facility today. It is FREAKING HUGE. And I mean really HUGE. They had several semi's parked in the back bays (probably 4-6 bays in total), loading and unloading metal in various shapes/forms :devil:

The photos in the website for the Dallas location are of the "actual" building:
http://www.trident-metals.com/dfw.shtml

I showed up, stated I wanted to see the facility and talk to a salesman, and I was greeted by this really nice older guy who game me a quick tour of their site. Like Daniel warned me, they have a min. of $50, but they are happy to set me up as a CASH account and sell me anything I want. He said I can call 1-2 hours ahead with my order, and it would be ready the same day. I saw at least 3 separate 55 gal drums full of "scraps", but he said he can't sell those as they already have somebody they sell them to 

They have EVERYTHING, and it is not just a warehouse, but a working facility. They had all kind of seriously big machines and shears cutting various metals, although he told me that by far they do more Aluminum than anything else. I even got to see a giant metal cutting band saw, cutting a piece of a 24" diameter Al "rod" - quite a sight 

Will


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## dstutts

Will, did you find some thing you can use?


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## wquiles

Earlier in the week I got 12" long of 2" round stock 12L14 steel from Metals4U - also a local supplier 

Will


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## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> Earlier in the week I got 12" long of 2" round stock 12L14 steel from Metals4U - also a local supplier
> 
> Will



Good deal. I'm anxious to see how you're going to make it.


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## StrikerDown

Mirage_Man said:


> Good deal. I'm anxious to see how you're going to make it.


 
Me too! We need pictures!! (Like Will needs a reminder)


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## wquiles

OK, so now I have "transformed" a piece of that round bar into a rectangular block of steel ...


Cut enough to get 2 pieces (in case I screw up!). I am using WD-40 to keep the blade lubricated:











Get ends squared on the lathe:





















Start turning from round to rectangle - this is a great opportunity to get to know my new-to-me knee mill. I tried various things to see how much I can push it:
















For the other side, I decided to try cutting from the side and back, instead of making light passes left to right:


























Now it is getting there:











For the other two sides, I am cutting them from the side:











I did it in one single pass, going really slow, then one more light pass just to clean the edge:











Then did the other side, and now I have a rectangle:
















The side dimension can be loose, but the height needs to be fairly "close", so I used a smaller flat center milling bit to "trim" the top until I got to the desired height (man, I wish I had a DRO already!!!):






After measuring and taking one more pass, I got within 1-2 mils of the target, so I stopped. Like Barry said earlier, those 50-division Starrett #123 calipers are the bomb - they feel heavy duty and truly unique - no wonder those were like $500 when new:
































Hopefully this weekend I will work on the two "rounded" cuts I have to make 

Will


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## precisionworks

> I will work on the two "rounded" cuts


Your Yuasa rotary table will make those a snap


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## KC2IXE

Nice

Isn't that 6" Kurt a tad large for a Mini Mill? Heck, I have Millrite (aka a Powermatic) and I think a 6" would probably be an overkill - I found a Kurt 4", which is nice - but of course only about 1/2 as many accessories are made, and the cost 2x - and its a little beat up


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## gadget_lover

It's not a mini mill. It's a 5 foot tall knee mill. I have a similar model. A 6 inch vise is no problem.


Will, why did you choose the roughing mill for those final cuts? A standard end mill would have given a nicer finish a little quicker.

Daniel


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## precisionworks

> Isn't that 6" Kurt a tad large


My first mill vise was an English, 4" model ... that didn't open far enough. Replaced it with a Chinavise, also 4", that had more opening but nothing fit right. Replaced that with a Kurt D675, and have enjoyed using it for years. My Enco mill is the same size & type as Brian's Rong Fu, which is to say that it's the largest benchtop mill available.


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Your Yuasa rotary table will make those a snap


That is exactly my plan - use the rotary table to make the round cuts. However, to best hold the part in place, by using the RT's t-slot, I will wait until I get the t-nuts that I ordered - they should be here on Monday, Tuesday at the latest. So today/tomorrow I will just mark and make the center hole by using the existing block as a guide, while I wait for the correct size t-nuts (7/16", 3/8-16 thread).





KC2IXE said:


> Nice
> 
> Isn't that 6" Kurt a tad large for a Mini Mill? Heck, I have Millrite (aka a Powermatic) and I think a 6" would probably be an overkill - I found a Kurt 4", which is nice - but of course only about 1/2 as many accessories are made, and the cost 2x - and its a little beat up


That 6" Kurt vise is totally awesome, and the perfect size for the knee mill that I have. Just like Barry said, expensive, but totally worth having a Kurt vise 





gadget_lover said:


> Will, why did you choose the roughing mill for those final cuts? A standard end mill would have given a nicer finish a little quicker.


Honestly, because that was the first center cutting mill that I found in my parts bin. I have other ones (non roughing mills), but since I am making really slow pases, and since I am not worried about the cutting lines, this was just "good enough" for the particular job. Plus some of it is also plain experimentation on my part - just being silly trying to figure out what I can get away with :devil:


Will


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## StrikerDown

precisionworks said:


> My first mill vise was an English, 4" model ... that didn't open far enough. Replaced it with a Chinavise, also 4", that had more opening but nothing fit right. Replaced that with a Kurt D675, and have enjoyed using it for years. My Enco mill is the same size & type as Brian's Rong Fu, which is to say that it's the largest benchtop mill available.


 
I have the RF-31 also and the 6" china vise. I'm learning the hard way to buy quality. The china vise seems to clamp things ok but I needed to clamp a 6" long chunk the other day and it isn't big enough. The Kurt D675 I think opens to almost 6.75" and I just missed one on ebey for $289 new in box:mecry:

Also the china vise isn't so paralell to the table! but it was so cheeeep!


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## KC2IXE

I'm not saying not to buy a real Kurt - like I said, I have the 4" model.

It's just that man is the 6" a BIG vise. My mill has an 8x32 table, and I think the 6" is a bit too large for it


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## StrikerDown

To get the right arc does the piece have to be at the same distance from table center as it will be used to clamp the table in? 

If so, I am cureous how in heck do you hold it there to mill it?


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## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> To get the right arc does the piece have to be at the same distance from table center as it will be used to clamp the table in?


Yes, that would be the ideal situation. However, since I will be using the actual RT to make the cut, the arc will actually the one of a smaller circle.




StrikerDown said:


> If so, I am cureous how in heck do you hold it there to mill it?


I will drill the hole first, and then with a bolt and t-nut, I will clamp the steel block to one of the t-slots of the rotary table. I will then make cuts while rotating the rotary table, therefor imparting an arc on the block. Just give me a couple more days - I will post a "few" pictures 

Will


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## Torque1st

For the purposes of clamping the table a smaller radius will be OK as long as the fit is adjusted.


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## StrikerDown

Will,

I have been thinking about this a little. (I know that sounds dangerous!) 

Can you take a long step clamp, bolt that to the table with a couple bolts so that it hangs over the table edge and bolt the work piece to the step clamp instead of the table so the arc is correct?

??????????????


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## StrikerDown

Or if you want to really go crazy how about putting an auxillary top on the table that is larger than the top and bolt directly to that!

Told you it was dangerous


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## gadget_lover

I thought he would just clamp it to a faceplate on his humongous lathe and cut that curved surface on the lathe.

Hmmm. Would the lathe faceplate bolt to the top of the RT?

Quite seriously, the piece could also be bolted to a 2 fool long piece of steel or alumnum with a bolt at the right point to use as a pivot. 



Daniel


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## wquiles

I think you guys are over-engineering this part :naughty:

All it does is apply down pressure to lock the table in place - it is not a tightly fitted part, so the arc does not have to be perfect. This is clearly one of these cases were "close enough" is all that is required 

Will


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## StrikerDown

Sorry, not trying to over engineer it, just using your project to think up a possible solution, should I ever need something similar. Sort of putting mental tools in the machining toolbox! (which is still kinda light)

Daniel, That's another idea I hadn't thought of... I bet if you do it that way you would really want to avoid a climb cut!

Ray


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## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


>


 

Will,

What is this mill called, I want one... Maybe a few!


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## gadget_lover

That is a "ball mill". It cuts a nicely rounded slot. You see the results of a ball mill in a lot of the flashlight decorations. Using a ball end mill to cut a groove in a piece held at an angle will result in a teardrop shape. If the piece is totally level you have a groove with a nicely tapered start and stop as well as a rounded bottom.

Will, if you really want over enginering, I can post the 100 x-y corordinates that you would use to cut a 1 inch arc of a 6 inch radius using plunge cuts. 


Daniel


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## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> Sorry, not trying to over engineer it, just using your project to think up a possible solution, should I ever need something similar. Sort of putting mental tools in the machining toolbox! (which is still kinda light)
> 
> Daniel, That's another idea I hadn't thought of... I bet if you do it that way you would really want to avoid a climb cut!





gadget_lover said:


> Will, if you really want over enginering, I can post the 100 x-y corordinates that you would use to cut a 1 inch arc of a 6 inch radius using plunge cuts.



I am just giving you guys a hard time - the ideas are actually very good for when needing to match the arc with more precision 




gadget_lover said:


> That is a "ball mill". It cuts a nicely rounded slot. You see the results of a ball mill in a lot of the flashlight decorations. Using a ball end mill to cut a groove in a piece held at an angle will result in a teardrop shape. If the piece is totally level you have a groove with a nicely tapered start and stop as well as a rounded bottom.


Yes, and mine is a 3/4" dia carbide re-ground from a local surplus store. I think I paid like $6-8 for it 

Will


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## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> can push it:


 
OK, I thought it was osme kind of inside corner rounding profile since it cuts flat across the face and rounds off toward the outside. 

The ball mills I have cut round (ball) shaped channels, with them if I tried to face a part off the end of the ball mill it would be wavy.


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## StrikerDown

gadget_lover said:


> That is a "ball mill". It cuts a nicely rounded slot. You see the results of a ball mill in a lot of the flashlight decorations. Using a ball end mill to cut a groove in a piece held at an angle will result in a teardrop shape. If the piece is totally level you have a groove with a nicely tapered start and stop as well as a rounded bottom.
> 
> Daniel


 

This is what my ball mills do:


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## gadget_lover

I might have been mistaken That may have been a 'contour' or radius mill, which would have a flat end and rounded edges.


Daniel


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## wquiles

I got the hole drilled and chamfered today.

First center punched it using the existing block. Then used a center drill to make the initial hole:






Then drilled and chamfered the hole (60deg cutter):






Getting closer and closer:






Will


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## wquiles

Well, I have another challenge, and I need some help.

The missing block that I am making is the one on the left hand, and as it happens, it is a left handed thread. The thread is M8 x 1.25 LEFT. What would you guys recommend? Trying to create the bolt from scratch in my lathe, or try to find a M8x1.25 Left Hand Die to make the bolt?

Ideas, suggestions?

Will


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## KowShak

wquiles said:


> Well, I have another challenge, and I need some help.
> 
> The missing block that I am making is the one on the left hand, and as it happens, it is a left handed thread. The thread is M8 x 1.25 LEFT. What would you guys recommend? Trying to create the bolt from scratch in my lathe, or try to find a M8x1.25 Left Hand Die to make the bolt?
> 
> Ideas, suggestions?
> 
> Will


 
Do you want to track down a left handed die and buy it to make this one bolt? Will you find another job for the die if you buy it? I've read the post you made where you made your own threading tool, since you know how to make a threading tool know how to use it, the obvious answer would be for you to make your own bolt assuming your lathe will do left handed threads. You could use use a right hand threaded bolt of a larger size, with the head you want and turn it down to size then thread it with the left handed you need. Does this sound feasable / sensible to you?


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## precisionworks

Other than reversing the compound to 29 deg left, and running the machine in reverse, it isn't too difficult:

http://its.fvtc.edu/MachShop2/operations/leftthrdcut.htm

Another description, this from a 1918 book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=F0...athe+threading+left+hand&lr=&client=firefox-a


----------



## Torque1st

Having a lathe means you can do things like this. Are the other bolts socket head? If so then just get one with a matching head but longer, and thread it on the shank as required. Then part it off to make the length you want.


----------



## wquiles

Well, you guys convinced me - I will turn my own bolts. There is always a first time for everything, right?

Besides using a larger bolt to start with, what other materials do you guys normally use for making your own bolts?

Will


----------



## Anglepoise

Well my only tip is if you use the modified flank in feed ( where you set your compound at 29° ) make sure it really is 29°.

Your lathe and others will have it wrong if you use the engraved scale as in your pic. A quick check is that the side of the compound must be parallel with one of the sides of the insert or single point 60° tool.

Get this wrong and you have very odd looking threads. Its caught us all out at one time or another.


----------



## Mirage_Man

Anglepoise said:


> Well my only tip is if you use the modified flank in feed ( where you set your compound at 29° ) make sure it really is 29°.
> 
> Your lathe and others will have it wrong if you use the engraved scale as in your pic. A quick check is that the side of the compound must be parallel with one of the sides of the insert or single point 60° tool.
> 
> Get this wrong and you have very odd looking threads. Its caught us all out at one time or another.



I think Will's compound might be welded in the position it's in.  Just teas'in Will (inside joke).


----------



## Torque1st

wquiles said:


> Well, you guys convinced me - I will turn my own bolts. There is always a first time for everything, right?
> 
> Besides using a larger bolt to start with, what other materials do you guys normally use for making your own bolts?
> 
> Will


"Larger bolt" is subjective. You just need enough material to work with.

A hex head bolt can be made but there are many different dimensions and forms that need to be held within tolerance. If you do not have one get a Machinery's Handbook. A socket head cap screw would be very hard to make. Bolts are often heat treated also, not just simply machined out of a block of metal.


----------



## wquiles

Anglepoise said:


> Well my only tip is if you use the modified flank in feed ( where you set your compound at 29° ) make sure it really is 29°.
> 
> Your lathe and others will have it wrong if you use the engraved scale as in your pic. A quick check is that the side of the compound must be parallel with one of the sides of the insert or single point 60° tool.
> 
> Get this wrong and you have very odd looking threads. Its caught us all out at one time or another.


Thanks for the tip David 




Mirage_Man said:


> I think Will's compound might be welded in the position it's in.  Just teas'in Will (inside joke).


Well, I think that this time, I will "have" to use the 29Deg position. You know it was going to happen sooner or later :naughty:




Torque1st said:


> "Larger bolt" is subjective. You just need enough material to work with.
> 
> A hex head bolt can be made but there are many different dimensions and forms that need to be held within tolerance. If you do not have one get a Machinery's Handbook. A socket head cap screw would be very hard to make. Bolts are often heat treated also, not just simply machined out of a block of metal.


I got some bolts at the local Home Depot today, and I just tried cutting them (after cutting the head off), and I think it will work OK for this application. I also changed the external gears to go form my normal 20TPI to Metric 1.25, so maybe tomorrow I can give this a shot 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> what other materials do you guys normally use for making your own bolts?


Probably the #1 choice is 4140 Prehard, which is regular 4140 that's been heated, oil quenched & tempered to Rockwell 28-32. That makes it as hard as a typical Grade 5 bolt, but still easy to turn, thread, & mill the flats on. This is a tougher material, and you'll want to run no faster than about 100 sfpm with carbide tooling, or half that with HSS tools.

Choice #2 is 1144 Stressproof. Not as hard (unless you heat/oil quench/temper) but easier to work than 4140PH. Tensile & yield are almost as high as 4140PH.


----------



## Torque1st

I love to work with 4140 but then I made a lot of large plastic pipe extrusion dies from that material.:twothumbs

Will, why didn't you just buy bolts with the head you needed and just thread the shank? Even metric bolts do not have thread all the way to the head if you buy them long enough. They are harder to find tho. Even after many years we still do not have a decent selection of metric fasteners in the US. Hacking a complete bolt or screw out of a hunk of metal is fun but it is kind of a waste of time.


----------



## wquiles

Torque1st said:


> Will, why didn't you just buy bolts with the head you needed and just thread the shank?


Because the so called bolt is not a "normal" bolt. Look at these pictures to see what I mean. In the first picture, right below the steel block, you can see the two part lever: bolt and extension, which is keep in place by a set screw on the flat side of the bolt:







Here in the second pic you get a closer look at the bolt part:






Plus part of this is the fun in trying to re-create something. Remember that for a newbie like me, these projects help me learn more :devil:

Will


----------



## KC2IXE

Gees - doesn't need to be hex, a low stress situation (not holding a heck of a lot)

Remember the thread where we talked about "Buying a couple of sticks of steel of different sizes to keep around"? This is the time to grab a stick of "whatever" (Stressproof would be good, 4140 prehard better, but I'd bet that 12L14 would work fine for the amount of stress that bolt will be under) and hack away at it. If you mess up, all you'll have lost is a few cents in steel, and some time, but you'll have gained in knowledge


----------



## Torque1st

For those clamps any old steel will work. Just be able to adjust them with shims or with a locknut so that the handle operates over the proper range.


----------



## StrikerDown

Torque1st said:


> For those clamps any old steel will work. Just be able to adjust them with shims or with a lock nut so that the handle operates over the proper range.



Or once the part is threaded put it in, torque it, and mark the location for the handle.


----------



## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> Plus part of this is the fun in trying to re-create something. Remember that for a newbie like me, these projects help me learn more :devil:
> 
> Will



This is why I was wondering what the best way would be to match the arc on the block. Not so we end up with a thing of beauty but to test our abilities of making the hardware do what we want it to!

This is a great learning project!


----------



## precisionworks

> once the part is threaded put it in, torque it, and mark the location for the handle.


Murphy's Law, as applied to machined parts, clearly states that the handle will always end up in the wrong place

You may want to consider adding an adjustable handle to the bolt:






http://www.reidsupply.com/GrpResults.aspx?PID=10021791&APID=10021791&AID=KHX-35&ST=&BI=


----------



## StrikerDown

precisionworks said:


> Murphy's Law, as applied to machined parts, clearly states that the handle will always end up in the wrong place
> 
> You may want to consider adding an adjustable handle to the bolt:
> http://www.reidsupply.com/GrpResults.aspx?PID=10021791&APID=10021791&AID=KHX-35&ST=&BI=



As stated by the guy that invented Vise Grips!


----------



## wquiles

Just to play with, I turned down a 5/8" steel Grade 5 Hex bolt from Home Depot. I then tried to thread a smaller diameter section (0.313"), but like you guys warned me, it was not fun. I also tried with 5/8" drill rod - not fun either. It was still good practice doing left handed threading, so it was time well spent. 




KC2IXE said:


> Gees - doesn't need to be hex, a low stress situation (not holding a heck of a lot)
> 
> Remember the thread where we talked about "Buying a couple of sticks of steel of different sizes to keep around"? This is the time to grab a stick of "whatever" (Stressproof would be good, 4140 prehard better, but I'd bet that 12L14 would work fine for the amount of stress that bolt will be under) and hack away at it. If you mess up, all you'll have lost is a few cents in steel, and some time, but you'll have gained in knowledge



Tomorrow I will visit Metals4U and try to buy some 1144 Stressproof stock to use for the actual bolts and handles, although I will likely also buy some more 12L14 to have around for similar projects 

Will


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Murphy's Law, as applied to machined parts, clearly states that the handle will always end up in the wrong place
> 
> You may want to consider adding an adjustable handle to the bolt:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.reidsupply.com/GrpResults.aspx?PID=10021791&APID=10021791&AID=KHX-35&ST=&BI=



Good idea, but I will be making my own, and using a set screw to keep it in place, just like the Yuasa original handles. I just wish I had a ball turning "adapter" for my lathe - or better yet, maybe I should try "making" one 

Will


----------



## KC2IXE

wquiles said:


> ...snip...
> Tomorrow I will visit Metals4U and try to buy some 1144 Stressproof stock to use for the actual bolts and handles, although I will likely also buy some more 12L14 to have around for similar projects
> 
> Will



Will,
As I said - talk to them - beyond a certain point, you'll get a price break, and usually N number of free cuts. I've typically found that buying a whole 20 ft stick is only a few dollars more than buying say 3-4 feet. They are really charging 2 things 1)Weight of the steel and 2)Labor. It actually takes them more labor to pull a rod, cut X feet off, and put what is left back, marling down how much is left etc - enough so that a full stick can be a bargin


----------



## KC2IXE

wquiles said:


> Good idea, but I will be making my own, and using a set screw to keep it in place, just like the Yuasa original handles. I just wish I had a ball turning "adapter" for my lathe - or better yet, maybe I should try "making" one
> 
> Will



I saw an interesting ball turning adaptor the other day, one of those "why didn't I think of that" things. Almost every adaptor I've seen moves the cutter horizontally, I saw one that used a tool cut more like a box tool, in what was basically a boring head held in a regular quick change holder with a pivot, so the tool fent vertically around the stock. It was a "Duh, that would be easy to do"


----------



## wquiles

KC2IXE said:


> Will,
> As I said - talk to them - beyond a certain point, you'll get a price break, and usually N number of free cuts. I've typically found that buying a whole 20 ft stick is only a few dollars more than buying say 3-4 feet. They are really charging 2 things 1)Weight of the steel and 2)Labor. It actually takes them more labor to pull a rod, cut X feet off, and put what is left back, marling down how much is left etc - enough so that a full stick can be a bargin


Thanks for the tip - I will call and find out 




KC2IXE said:


> I saw an interesting ball turning adaptor the other day, one of those "why didn't I think of that" things. Almost every adaptor I've seen moves the cutter horizontally, I saw one that used a tool cut more like a box tool, in what was basically a boring head held in a regular quick change holder with a pivot, so the tool fent vertically around the stock. It was a "Duh, that would be easy to do"


Linkie?


Will


----------



## KC2IXE

wquiles said:


> Thanks for the tip - I will call and find out
> 
> 
> 
> Linkie?
> 
> 
> Will



I think it was an old hard copy book I was browsing - Might have been online, but I didn't save a link, mosr a "Oh, OK, nice idea", and I can make something to do the job with what I have around

Of course, if I get the CNC lathe, it'll become one of those "Things folks with manual lathes use"

That said, a quick web search turned up 

http://www.haythornthwaite.com/Ball Turning.htm

Not the page I saw, which had plans how to make it with it's own boring head etc - my thought was "I own 2 boring heads..."


----------



## precisionworks

That's a neat idea to use a boring head in the cross slide. I have some smaller ones that should work well ... if they do, I'll post a photo


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> That's a neat idea to use a boring head in the cross slide. I have some smaller ones that should work well ... if they do, I'll post a photo


I definitely look forward to seeing that 




By the way, I was able to stop by today Metals4U and I now own round stock 5/8" dia of both 12L14 and StreesProof steel 

WIll


----------



## wquiles

Well, I made the bolt last night (actually I made like 3 of them trying various things), and it works. My first, made from scratch bolt, and to top it off, it was a left handed, metric bolt (M8 1.25)!

One thing I noted, is that compared to other hardened bolts, the threads on my 12L14 bolt are a little "soft", so it would probably be better to use the stress proof for bolts that would require more torque. Since I bought both the 12L14 and the SP in 5/8", I have plenty of material to do more in the future.

I still have to make a handle and add it to the top of the bolt, but definitely making progress. In fact, I like the looks of the new bolt so much, that I am planning on making the companion right handed bolt for the other side, since cutting 12L14 is so easy and sine the lathe is still setup for metric cutting.


Cost to buy a left handed die = about $40 from the Internet sources I checked.

Cost of the knowledge I gained in setting up my lathe for metric and doing left handed threads = priceless 


Photos later tonight ...

Will


----------



## wquiles

OK, here are photos of the first left handed M8 1.25 bolt I made:













I had to do it again since I messed up, so here I got all 3 of them: 
(left = reject; center = right hand bolt; right = good left hand bolt)






This is how well the new left handed bolt works:






Since I like the one I made and since the one I have is not "pretty", here I am making a new right hand bolt:






Got the threads ready - here I am going to test it:






And here are the completed bolts:
(left = left handed bolt; center = original right handed bolt; right = new right handed bolt)






I hope to start working on the handle part of the bolts this weekend 

Will


----------



## KC2IXE

That's the first stuff you've threaded? Man, you have a future in the machine shop

Only thing, I would have put a nice bevel/rounded end on the bolt threads, or better, a Higbee end (aka you remove the first thread from the bolt)


----------



## StrikerDown

I think this is his first steel threaded parts and first left hand threads. He is an old hand at aluminum flashlight parts!

Will, stop it I can't take any more... I want my lathe!

Seriously, you da bomb! Those look great. :naughty: I can't wait to see what you do for the handles... the presure is on!


----------



## wquiles

Yup, first time doing bolts, first time doing left hand threads, second time doing steel on the lathe, although I have been doing cut/re-threads on Mag's for about a year now. 

That is why I used the 12L14 first, even though I also bought stress proof (SP) steel - I wanted to start on the "easy" steel first, and this is a relatively low torque application. However, I don't think I want to keep using 12L14 for bolts - I will definitely be using the SP from now on as I would like to try case hardening with future bolts that I make.




KC2IXE said:


> Only thing, I would have put a nice bevel/rounded end on the bolt threads, or better, a Higbee end (aka you remove the first thread from the bolt)


I tried to give the bolt a 60 Deg releif, but it was not quite as nice as I hoped, so I just touched up the end on my bench grinder and used a small file to smooth the threads on the tip. How exactly do you do a Higbee end? How do you remove the first thread - while still mounted on the lathe?

Will


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## precisionworks

Nicely done :thumbsup:


----------



## gadget_lover

Really nice job Will. Make me think I need to re-cut some screws myself. 




wquiles said:


> I tried to give the bolt a 60 Deg releif, but it was not quite as nice as I hoped, so I just touched up the end on my bench grinder and used a small file to smooth the threads on the tip. How exactly do you do a Higbee end? How do you remove the first thread - while still mounted on the lathe?
> 
> Will



I had the same question. 

If you just shave off the first thread ( down to the root) then you still have a partial width thread for the beginning of the threads. 

If you shave off the first thread by grinding as it's rotated, then you end up with the thread starting as full width. Is that the objective?

Daniel


----------



## Torque1st

Put a single thread width thread relief on the start of the bolt just like you did at the end of the threads. Use a 45° chamfer for the start and end of threads as well as the end of the thread relief. That way the threads taper out nicely in the 45° chamfer.


----------



## wquiles

Torque1st said:


> Put a single thread width thread relief on the start of the bolt just like you did at the end of the threads. Use a 45° chamfer for the start and end of threads as well as the end of the thread relief. That way the threads taper out nicely in the 45° chamfer.



Ahh. That is the procedure I followed, but not knowing any better I did it with the same 60 Deg thread cutting bit, as shown here:






Next time, do it with the 45 Deg angle - thanks for the tip :thumbsup:

Will


----------



## Torque1st

I don't use those thread cutting bits for anything but thread cutting. I also put a tiny bit of thread relief on the end of the cutting bit with a diamond wheel. During cutting that thread relief relieves the stress on the tip of the cutting bit where it often breaks down first. If you look at thread profiles in a machinery's Handbook you will see there is a small amount of thread relief at the top and bottom (crest and root) of threads, not a sharp V or edge. The thread relief at the top or crest of the threads is made by turning the major diameter a few thousandths under the major diameter. When cutting threads set your compound at a 29° angle to feed into the direction of cut and use the compound to feed in as you thread.

BTW, I have cut a LOT of threads on a lathe. Cutting threads as a final operation on a $20,000 die set gives one a real incentive to get it right the first time.


----------



## Anglepoise

Looking very nice indeed.


----------



## wquiles

Anglepoise said:


> Looking very nice indeed.



Thanks David 



Torque1st said:


> I don't use those thread cutting bits for anything but thread cutting. I also put a tiny bit of thread relief on the end of the cutting bit with a diamond wheel. During cutting that thread relief relieves the stress on the tip of the cutting bit where it often breaks down first. If you look at thread profiles in a machinery's Handbook you will see there is a small amount of thread relief at the top and bottom (crest and root) of threads, not a sharp V or edge. The thread relief at the top or crest of the threads is made by turning the major diameter a few thousandths under the major diameter. When cutting threads set your compound at a 29° angle to feed into the direction of cut and use the compound to feed in as you thread.
> 
> BTW, I have cut a LOT of threads on a lathe. Cutting threads as a final operation on a $20,000 die set gives one a real incentive to get it right the first time.


Thanks. And by the way, if you can later post pictures, I would love to see what a $20K die looks like 

Will


----------



## Torque1st

No pics, they were extrusion dies for making plastic pipe, anything from the little half inch pipe up to 16" on my machine. I mostly worked on the 3" and up dies. The really big pipe dies were made on another 10' (yes foot) swing Monarch lathe. If I stood on the ways I could not reach the top of the chuck and I am 6'4". Intermediate sized pipe dies were made on a 30" CNC lathe. I ran a 24" manual Okuma. I worked for CertainTeed plastics machinery while my wife finished school and before I transfered to KU. I never knew what I was going to be cutting on when I walked into the plant. I made more than the dies themselves. There were other parts for the extruders as well as sizing tubes etc to be made.


----------



## cmacclel

Will another option you have would be mounting the threading tool in upside down then run the lathe in reverse and cut towards the chuck. That was you would not need a relief in the middle of the bolt.

Mac


----------



## Torque1st

cmacclel said:


> Will another option you have would be mounting the threading tool in upside down then run the lathe in reverse and cut towards the chuck. That was you would not need a relief in the middle of the bolt.
> 
> Mac


You still need that relief at the end of the threads unless you are real fast, real good, AND real lucky.


----------



## wquiles

I think for now, I will keep using a relief area - remember that I already had one crash with my expensive chuck - I don't want to do that again 

Will


----------



## wquiles

OK, so I have the handles pretty much done for now ...

Find the center:







apply chamfering (82 deg):











start work on the actual handle:
















start giving the handle a round/oval shape by hand, using the round bit tool:











And this is how it looks for now. Once I have a round/sphere cutting fixture, I will re-cut them to a nicer looking shape:











Then work on the socket set screw:





















Now to adjust the handle position. I am aiming to have them locked in the 90deg position, for best leverage. This is the initial position:






and after trimming about 0.004" from the base of the bolt:






and after trimming about 0.002" more:






Before I can adjust the handle on the other side (the left handed threaded one), I need to fist complete the new block, which means cutting the two arc's on the RT. I hope to do that today (Sunday).

Will


----------



## precisionworks

Great job! 

When you have a part in the lathe for drilling, it's easy to do tapping at the same time. Drill the hole, then chamfer or bevel the sharp edge - this produces a stronger thread. Switch spindle speed to the slowest available, mount a Jacobs chuck in the tailstock, & grip the tap in the Jacobs chuck. Loosen the tailstock locking bolt so that the tailstock slides easily, start the spindle, lube the tap, and push the tailstock forward by hand until the tap engages the hole.

As long as the chuck is not killer tight, the tap will spin in the chuck when it bottoms. Reverse the spindle to back the tap out. The key to making this work is using the slowest spindle speed available, which is sometimes called back gear.


----------



## Mirage_Man

cmacclel said:


> Will another option you have would be mounting the threading tool in upside down then run the lathe in reverse and cut towards the chuck. That was you would not need a relief in the middle of the bolt.
> 
> Mac



I've not cut left handed threads yet Mac but I'm a little confused. If you're running toward the chuck wouldn't you still want a thread relief area?


----------



## StrikerDown

precisionworks said:


> Great job!





precisionworks said:


>



 
 
++1, personally I like the shape you have better than the round ball.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Great job!
> 
> When you have a part in the lathe for drilling, it's easy to do tapping at the same time. Drill the hole, then chamfer or bevel the sharp edge - this produces a stronger thread. Switch spindle speed to the slowest available, mount a Jacobs chuck in the tailstock, & grip the tap in the Jacobs chuck. Loosen the tailstock locking bolt so that the tailstock slides easily, start the spindle, lube the tap, and push the tailstock forward by hand until the tap engages the hole.
> 
> As long as the chuck is not killer tight, the tap will spin in the chuck when it bottoms. Reverse the spindle to back the tap out. The key to making this work is using the slowest spindle speed available, which is sometimes called back gear.



I did something similar. I started the thread with the tap in the drill chuck, and turned the spindle/chuck by hand just to get the tap started, when finished in the bench as I showed in the picture above. I am a little bit of a chicken to try it under power 

Will


----------



## wquiles

OK, I am done with this project 


I first started with my new Iscar face mill, but moved to a narrower end mill due to clearance issues, specially when I did the inside part. Here is the outside part:





















I had to do this curve twice since it was not quite aligned: 






Here is on the inside, with the end mill:






Re-doing the outside:






Almost done:
















But the block is not quite flat enough:











so I had to touch it up somewhat, which also meant I had to make the hole for the bolt slightly larger to compensate:






Here are the completed parts, already adjusted for travel (angles look weird due to the wide lens):
















Use a ******* file to remove the sharp edges/corners:






And gave everything a nice protective treatment:






And now done for good:












After cutting so much steel, I cleaned the chuck again, and guess what: the Way Oil is working MUCH better than the grease at keeping things clean. All I had to do was remove the jaws, wipe the jaws clean, use compressed air on the jaws (not the chuck body!), re-lube with Way Oil, and put back in the chuck:







=> The next project is to mount the chuck's mounting plate to the RT, which means I have to accurately drill 4 holes (one for each T-slot in the RT), and of course I have to do this with the RT centered in the mill and with the chuck's mounting plate centered in the same axis. Tips/advice as to how to do this?

Will


----------



## gadget_lover

Once again, nice work! The handles came out looking as great as a commercial unit. I would not have thought to adjust the angle by trimming the bottom of the bolt.



wquiles said:


> The next project is to mount the chuck's mounting plate to the RT, which means I have to accurately drill 4 holes (one for each T-slot in the RT), and of course I have to do this with the RT centered in the mill and with the chuck's mounting plate centered in the same axis. Tips/advice as to how to do this?



Since the RT has a center bore (mt2? mt3???) that is true, I'd recommend starting with an adapter to fit that bore and mate with the mounting plate's center hole. That's what I did with my little round table and a little 2 inch chuck. Makes it easy to mount it the same place every time.

Your mounting plate's holes don't need to be that precice, nor do they have to be drilled while on the RT. They just need to be at 90 degrees from center.

Daniel


----------



## StrikerDown

Excellent work Will! A+

I have to get a bottle of Dicropan! Looks like you didn't get the little bottle, does it seem to go a long way?


----------



## Anglepoise

The cold blue looks 'factory' and nice to hear oil is working in the chuck.


----------



## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> Once again, nice work! The handles came out looking as great as a commercial unit. I would not have thought to adjust the angle by trimming the bottom of the bolt.
> 
> Since the RT has a center bore (mt2? mt3???) that is true, I'd recommend starting with an adapter to fit that bore and mate with the mounting plate's center hole. That's what I did with my little round table and a little 2 inch chuck. Makes it easy to mount it the same place every time.
> 
> Your mounting plate's holes don't need to be that precice, nor do they have to be drilled while on the RT. They just need to be at 90 degrees from center.


Yes, it is an MT3. Thanks for the tip/idea about the centering adapter - brilliantly simple 




StrikerDown said:


> Excellent work Will! A+
> 
> I have to get a bottle of Dicropan! Looks like you didn't get the little bottle, does it seem to go a long way?


Dicropan was Barry's idea. You actually use very little, but the bigger bottle was a better "deal". Hopefully this will last a while 




Anglepoise said:


> The cold blue looks 'factory' and nice to hear oil is working in the chuck.


Yup, the bluing turned up better than I hoped 

I think about your cleaning tips every time I shot down the lathe. Although I will never have the patience to do the type of cleaning that you do on yours, I do try to keep my lathe and knee mill as clean as possible, and yes, the light color on the lathe does help :thumbsup:

Will


----------



## ICUDoc

Ahhh! Curiously satisfying to watch that job start to finish- thanks a lot I learned some more. While we are renovating I can't use my machines, so this for me is fun-by-proxy. How did you make sure the rectangular block was positioned exactly right on the RT for the curved edge work? I can see how easily one could cut a radius slightly "tilted" with respect to the bolt hole.....?????


----------



## wquiles

ICUDoc said:


> How did you make sure the rectangular block was positioned exactly right on the RT for the curved edge work? I can see how easily one could cut a radius slightly "tilted" with respect to the bolt hole.....?????


When I did the external curve, I actually misaligned the block - what is why I had to do it twice  . On the inside, I used the concentric rings on the surface of the RT and good lighting to get the block aligned - that was easier, at least for the first cut.

You know what was hardest? When I had to remove the block and re-set it to do more cutting/another pass. The way I re-gained alignment was to mount the block loosely, centered with relation to the mill bit, and press the block until the block touched the mill cutter (while OFF, of course!), and then rotate the RT back and forth while taping the block lightly to maintain alignment with the mill (touching the mill through the arc). Since the mill is rigid and the block isn't, as I rotate the RT the mill actually pushes the block into alignment a little bit each time. I repeated this process 3-4 times, each time the blocks moves less and less. Once I can rotate the RT the whole arc while touching the bit, I then clamped the block and took another light cut. This is the type of operation where trying to read the dials on the mill's table are not that good/easy to do - if I had a DRO I could have done the cut in a single pass 

Will
(still saving money for the mill's DRO!)


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## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> Since the RT has a center bore (mt2? mt3???) that is true, I'd recommend starting with an adapter to fit that bore and mate with the mounting plate's center hole. That's what I did with my little round table and a little 2 inch chuck. Makes it easy to mount it the same place every time.
> 
> Your mounting plate's holes don't need to be that precise, nor do they have to be drilled while on the RT. They just need to be at 90 degrees from center.



Daniel - I just ordered one of these:
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2393&category=10


I will use it to make the centering "adapter" 

Will


----------



## cmacclel

Torque1st said:


> You still need that relief at the end of the threads unless you are real fast, real good, AND real lucky.


 

Actually not for the bolt he made as it has the same diameter shank. All you would need to do is manually back off the cross slide at approximately the same position. I use to do this on the internal mag body threading. As soon as the DRO read .575 I'd slowly back of the cross slide for the CNC look threads 

Mac


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## Torque1st

cmacclel said:


> Actually not for the bolt he made as it has the same diameter shank. All you would need to do is manually back off the cross slide at approximately the same position. I use to do this on the internal mag body threading. As soon as the DRO read .575 I'd slowly back of the cross slide for the CNC look threads
> 
> Mac


Wait to see what happens if you miss....
It can be done, but I would not recommend it.


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## cmacclel

Torque1st said:


> Wait to see what happens if you miss....
> It can be done, but I would not recommend it.


 

If you miss with that big of a window (Half a bolt) then you shouldn't be machining anything  As far as I know TB and MirageMan do this on all the E-Series tailcaps in titanium. I'd rather do it the way I explained than having to stop exactly in a small relief area. But thats all in the past for me. I just tell the machine where to start and stop and walk away now 

Mac


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## Torque1st

By "missing" I mean all of a sudden making a full depth thread or even a very heavy cut if a person does not back out in time. When this happens it can break the tool or throw the part out of the chuck. It is fine to do this with a CNC machine but do not try it on a manual machine.


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## KC2IXE

Torque1st said:


> ...snip..It is fine to do this with a CNC machine but do not try it on a manual machine.



Depends on the Manual Machine - No problem on a 10EE or a HLVH (They have auto retract/stop)


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## Torque1st

KC2IXE said:


> Depends on the Manual Machine - No problem on a 10EE or a HLVH (They have auto retract/stop)



Hehe, there are a few nice "automated" manual machines!


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## cmacclel

Torque1st said:


> By "missing" I mean all of a sudden making a full depth thread or even a very heavy cut if a person does not back out in time. When this happens it can break the tool or throw the part out of the chuck. It is fine to do this with a CNC machine but do not try it on a manual machine.


 
In my opinion there is no difference in having to disengauge the feed lever at the exact time in a relief or just turning the cross slide wheel a 1/4 turn. I have done it hundreds of time. The main reason for doing it is

1) It saves time
2) You don't have to deal with half thread burrs.

Mac


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## Torque1st

cmacclel said:


> In my opinion there is no difference in having to disengauge the feed lever at the exact time in a relief or just turning the cross slide wheel a 1/4 turn. I have done it hundreds of time. The main reason for doing it is
> 
> 1) It saves time
> 2) You don't have to deal with half thread burrs.
> 
> Mac


You are lucky then. With a relief there is no "exact time" requirement like there is in your method which is why it was just not done in production unless it was a special automated machine or CNC. 

There is no "half thread burr" to deal with in a proper thread relief.

I would not recommend anyone use your method, especially a novice machinist. In a home shop environment there is not need to "save time". There is not time savings if a part is ruined or the machine is damaged. Not that I have not done it on occasion with good results for a special application. The chance of a "miss" and the resulting possible damages to both the part and the machine are not worth the risk. As I said before I have done a LOT of threading on a manual lathe, many more than "hundreds of times".


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## precisionworks

> I have done a LOT of threading on a manual lathe, many more than "hundreds of times".


Same here, in a production setting, on mostly large parts. We used to make replacement axles, 6" diameter x 120" long, each end threaded & cross drilled for a cotter pin. The cost of 1144 Stressproof in that size was hefty, and there was no room to mess up either thread, or either cross drilled hole. Thread relief cut was probably 1/4".

If you're threading with CNC, no problem to go dead to the shoulder. Manual machines are different, and I've never known a production machinist who didn't use a relief cut.


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## cmacclel

Torque1st said:


> There is no "half thread burr" to deal with in a proper thread relief.



So how do you make a proper thread relief on an internal thread? A specially ground custom tool??


Mac


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## precisionworks

> So how do you make a proper thread relief on an internal thread?


The key to getting no burr, either external threads or internal threads, is to make the relief cut before cutting the threads. Very similar to countersinking the sharp edge of a hole before threading that hole - a perfect thread lead results from countersinking first. If the hole is threaded & then countersunk, the lead thread is always messed up. Same with a relief cut.


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> The key to getting no burr, either external threads or internal threads, is to make the relief cut before cutting the threads. Very similar to countersinking the sharp edge of a hole before threading that hole - a perfect thread lead results from countersinking first. If the hole is threaded & then countersunk, the lead thread is always messed up. Same with a relief cut.



I was also taught to do the relief cut "before" threading, but when I was using the cutting bit with 60Deg for the relief in these new bolts that I made, the end result was not as "satisfactory". A couple of posts above, it was mentioned that using a 45Deg tool would in fact be better. What angle tool do you use to cut your relief area?

Will


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## precisionworks

> What angle tool do you use to cut your relief area?


I can't say for sure, as I've never measured it, but it's made with a triangle insert, so probably 60 deg. It really isn't critical, probably anywhere from 30-60 deg should work fine.


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## Torque1st

The relief cut at the end of the threads should be 45° to avoid a burr. It must be greater than the thread angle for a smooth finish. I make mine with standard inserts or carbide tooling when I finish my bore. When making extruder dies there were both internal and external threads.


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## wquiles

Torque1st said:


> The relief cut at the end of the threads should be 45° to avoid a burr. It must be greater than the thread angle for a smooth finish. I make mine with standard inserts or carbide tooling when I finish my bore. When making extruder dies there were both internal and external threads.



Thank you for clarifying that 

Will
(still lots and lots to learn!)


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## cmacclel

Torque1st said:


> The relief cut at the end of the threads should be 45° to avoid a burr. It must be greater than the thread angle for a smooth finish. I make mine with standard inserts or carbide tooling when I finish my bore. When making extruder dies there were both internal and external threads.


 
Can you point us to the internal 45 Degree tooling your referring to.

Mac


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## cmacclel

Torque1st said:


> You are lucky then.


 
Lucky is something that happens once in while. I guess if I have done it hundreds of times I just must be good because I have never had a ruined part or any mishap doing it.

As for machinists.....the 2 I worked with for the past 15 years that have 30+ years in the profession never cut thread reliefs.

Mac


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## Torque1st

Mac-

Try a boring bar set up to hold a VNMG331FF Kennametal or similar 30-35° insert. The insert can finish the back face of a bore and the 45° thread relief. The boring bar I used was Kennametal also. You can also grind your own for smaller bores. Your tool supplier should have a similar setup for you.

Keep up the lucky work, you will have a crash sometime. Your threading method is bad practice and I hope novice machinists are not led to trying it. Let the newbies learn the basics before you introduce them to risky behaviors to show off.


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## Anglepoise

I can only speak for myself, but have to admit I have picked up some bad habits over the years. As one gets to know ones lathe, I suppose its only natural to use some 'shortcuts'.

However I always try to avoid any possibility of a crash, tool break ( parting yuk !!) or having the work piece rip out of the chuck.

In threading I always chamfer the start area to be threaded, and ALWAYS machine a run out groove a thou or two deeper than the major diameter of a nut and minor diameter of a screw ( hope I got that the right way around ).

Certainly guys starting out would be wise to use a run out groove initially.
Also for so many of our applications, a run out groove can often become an 'O' ring groove later.


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## wquiles

wquiles said:


> Daniel - I just ordered one of these:
> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2393&category=10
> 
> 
> I will use it to make the centering "adapter"
> 
> Will




OK, got the adapter from LMS, and guess what? The straight side is too small! I needed it to be a "little" wider to engage the chuck's mounting plate. So, it looks like I am making my first MT3 adapter 

The tapered hole in my RT is about 3 inches, but since I just need it for alignment, I am going to shoot for something shorter, around 1.5 - 2" for the tapered portion. From what I have read so far, since this will be a relatively short taper, I should be able to use the compound to the right angle.

To set the compound, I will use the MT3 adapter from LMS, hold the straight section on the lathe's chuck, and use the hanging MT3 piece to set the angle of the compound, since I just want to duplicate it.

Sounds reasonable? Any other ideas/alternatives? Since this is used just for alignment, with no weight/forces on it, Al would be acceptable, or do I need to make it out of steel?

Will


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## precisionworks

> Sounds reasonable? Any other ideas/alternatives?


A morse taper shank needs to be dead nuts so that the male & female components have full engagement. Here's one way to do it:

http://tool20895.homestead.com/files/MORSE1.htm

An even easier way is to start with a MT to JT arbor, and turn the JT end straight. Then make your fitting to go on the straight section. Under $8 from J&L:

http://metalworking.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1786212


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## gadget_lover

I had the same thought Barry had. Mill a shoulder on that adapter, then add a sleeve to match the chuck's mounting plate.


I would think that for centering, the technique Will listed should be "good enough". I've done short, non-precision tapers using the compound and they worked well.

Daniel


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## wquiles

OK, I got this finished today :devil:

This is the MT3 blank that I bought, that was a tad too small on the straight side. Fortunately, it was a great setup to use to align the compound to the right angle:













This is the piece of Al "scrap" that I will be using:











Test fit on the chuck's mounting plate - my goal was to be like half a mill to one mill oversize and later lightly sand it down to fit:






Once done on the straight side, I can concentrate on the MT3 side:











At first I tried one of the recommended procedures in the web using setup blocks, but I could not trust the results:






so I decided to use my dial indicator:











I placed a heavy mark and a light one to know when to stop the tapered cut, based on my earlier measurement at the top of the hole in the RT:






The finished piece works GREAT:






The scratch was a slight accident with the tool holder during the parting-off operation:






And it works like I hoped:






To remove the adapter, I drilled and tapped a hole for a screw:





















Next step will be to drill the 4 mounting holes for the T slots 

Will


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## gadget_lover

I hate to be a spoil sport, but how are you going to tighten the backing plate to the RT when the chuck is installed? Can you mount the chuck to the RT with screws that you tighten from the top? I'm sure I'm missing something.


Daniel


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## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> I hate to be a spoil sport, but how are you going to tighten the backing plate to the RT when the chuck is installed? Can you mount the chuck to the RT with screws that you tighten from the top? I'm sure I'm missing something.
> 
> 
> Daniel



I can't, and I was not planning on doing it that way. I first bolt the mounting plate to the RT, and then bolt the chuck to the mounting plate. Same steps as mounting a chuck to a lathe.

Am I missing something?


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## gadget_lover

You are not missing a thing. I was just not sure what mountng technique was available for the chuck. Some use cam lock, some bolt from the back of the backing plate, some have bolts that are tightened from the front, and some are threaded and spin onto the spindle. 

The small 7x10 lathes ( remember that far back???) had studs that went through the mounting plate, which brought the thought to mind.

Daniel


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## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> The small 7x10 lathes ( remember that far back???) had studs that went through the mounting plate, which brought the thought to mind.


Ahh - I now know what you meant. Yes, from that point of view, what I am doing is in fact kind of backwards 


Now, any tips to align/center each of the 4 mounting holes to the 4 T slots?

I just received my Indicol Adjustol and I must admit I am not quite sure yet how to use it. Ideas/photos? 

Will


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## gadget_lover

The holes;

With a suitible plug in the middle (to support a compass) scribe a circle at the distance that suits you. I'd make them inside the existing holes so you don't get confused.

Pick an arbitrary spot and mark the first hole. Mark the oposite side as hole two. Line between 1 and 2. Then use a square to mark hole 3 at 90 degrees. A line from hole 3, though the center to the other side of the circle will be hole 4.

The t-slots allow a bit of play, so it should not be critical.

The indicol works with the machine off. You use it to hold an indicator at a set spot in relation to the spindle. It clamps to the nose of the spindle. This allows you to center things without removing collets and tooling. You turn the spindle by hand.



The assumption is that the outside of the spindle nose is concentric with the bore of the spindle. 








Daniel


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## Atlascycle

gadget_lover said:


> The holes;
> 
> 
> 
> The indicol works with the machine off. You use it to hold an indicator at a set spot in relation to the spindle. It clamps to the nose of the spindle. This allows you to center things without removing collets and tooling. You turn the spindle by hand.
> 
> 
> 
> The assumption is that the outside of the spindle nose is concentric with the bore of the spindle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel



if you are turning the spindle to indicate the hole then the concentricity of the spindle nose will not effect the accuracy.


Jason


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## precisionworks

Since the OP is about "source of steel" (and since my prior thread is corrupted), here's an email that arrived today from Discount Steel:

We value you as a customer so we are letting you know about a new promotion that is running for free shipping on any order over $35.00.

Promotion is on a day to day to basis so stop by and don't miss out on another great deal from Discount Steel.

For any inquiries email us at [email protected]
or
Give us a call at 1800-522-5950 Ext: 4720 (ask for Blake)

Store Link:http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Discount-Steel-Online-Metal-Store__W0QQ_armrsZ1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My first order from them arrived quickly & was well packed in a large (8" diameter) tube. Every piece was taped together so nothing got banged up in shipping


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## precisionworks

I also found a supplier for DOM (drawn over mandrel) tubing. No minimum purchase & credit cards accepted. There is one job in the shop that requires steel tubing with 1.750" OD and 1.560" ID - the tubing will get internal hard chrome plating & become press in bushings for a pump plate. Searched & searched before finding Tubular Steel Inc., who had in stock the exact tube needed. Six feet cost only $72, including shipping and the cut to length charge.

http://www.tubularsteel.com/docs/stocklist_dom.pdf


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## wquiles

Barry,

Going back to the OP's question of steel choices ... :naughty:

I need a piece of steel, really a rectangular block, to make a BXA-size tool holder for a parting/cut-off blade, and I would like it to be adaptable to work with a 26mm blade and a 32mm blade (basically one block with two clamping tops).

What would be the right steel type for such a tool holder?

Will


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## PhotonFanatic

cmacclel said:


> Can you point us to the internal 45 Degree tooling your referring to.
> 
> Mac



Sandvik, and I'm sure others, have a boring bar that does a nice job of cutting thread relief, plus I find that the 45-degree entering angle can also be used quite nicely at the beginning of the threads as well:






There are also solid bars that do the same thing, so no insert needed. The solid bars come in a wide variety of sizes, allowing one to reach fairly deep, although most threads on flashlights aren't that deep.


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## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> The holes;
> 
> With a suitible plug in the middle (to support a compass) scribe a circle at the distance that suits you. I'd make them inside the existing holes so you don't get confused.
> 
> Pick an arbitrary spot and mark the first hole. Mark the oposite side as hole two. Line between 1 and 2. Then use a square to mark hole 3 at 90 degrees. A line from hole 3, though the center to the other side of the circle will be hole 4.
> 
> The t-slots allow a bit of play, so it should not be critical.
> 
> The indicol works with the machine off. You use it to hold an indicator at a set spot in relation to the spindle. It clamps to the nose of the spindle. This allows you to center things without removing collets and tooling. You turn the spindle by hand.
> 
> 
> 
> The assumption is that the outside of the spindle nose is concentric with the bore of the spindle.
> 
> (snip pic)
> 
> Daniel



Daniel,

Although I did not quite follow your method exactly, your ideas/suggestions did help me get this done today.

Here I am drilling the hole (after using a center drill):






Here I am using the 82 Deg cutter I just got:






And as expected it matches my hex bolts perfectly:






Once I located the first one, I just advanced the RT 180 deg for the opposite, and then again for the other two:






I cleaned everything, mounted the chuck, and used my Noga base and dial indicator to center the Set-Tru chuck to the RT's center:






I got it to less than 0.0005" (probably between 0.0003" and 0.0004") and called it a day:






Will


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## StrikerDown

Will,

That came out fantastic

But now I want to know if you have been pumping iron so you can lift it on and off the mill?

The 8" RT alone is a beast!


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## gadget_lover

OK, you cheated by using the RT, but it sure cam out nice.



Daniel


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## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> Will,
> 
> That came out fantastic
> 
> But now I want to know if you have been pumping iron so you can lift it on and off the mill?
> 
> The 8" RT alone is a beast!


I have not tried yet, but it sure looks heavy! Good thing that I followed Barry's advice and got the 8" RT, and not anything bigger oo:




gadget_lover said:


> OK, you cheated by using the RT, but it sure cam out nice.
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel


When I started I looked at a couple of options, and then the light bulb when ON - yes, the RT made it almost too easy


----------



## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> I have not tried yet, but it sure looks heavy! Good thing that I followed Barry's advice and got the 8" RT, and not anything bigger oo:
> 
> 
> 
> When I started I looked at a couple of options, and then the light bulb when ON - yes, the RT made it almost too easy




You used the RT, Good... You used your head, Priceless!

When I look at my 8" Rt it does not look like it should be heavy, then you try picking it up.:shakehead Your set up looks heavy to me... I'd be in trouble. I'm thinking A Jacobs chuck on the right size MT is more my speed... or a Gantry Crane! HEHE!


----------



## gadget_lover

StrikerDown said:


> . or a Gantry Crane! HEHE!




I think that was a joke, but a lot of Home shops do have a small gantry crane, engine hoist, etc to lift heavy things onto the mill, workbench, etc.

Sounds like a fine idea to me. 

Daniel


----------



## StrikerDown

gadget_lover said:


> I think that was a joke, but a lot of Home shops do have a small gantry crane, engine hoist, etc to lift heavy things onto the mill, workbench, etc.
> 
> Sounds like a fine idea to me.
> 
> Daniel



Daniel,

The Jacobs was really the joke but the gantry would be real handy from time to time. But my garage needs to grow up first!


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## KC2IXE

They actually sell small cranes that can hook to your aloris style tool post on your lathe

I know where I first learned yo use a lathe/mill etc, we had a 2 ton bridge crane, PLUS there was an extra trolly and hoist on the 1 track for the bridge that was right over the mill.

Then again, we BUILT those cranes


----------



## precisionworks

When you need to lift 1500# into the bed of a truck, a gantry crane is one easy solution. Shop built from left over materials, cost about $200 including the 8" locking casters on all four corners ... not counting the chain hoist & trolley, which adds another $216. The hoist & trolley are both rated for 1 ton, although the I-beam & support columns are rated for over 2 tons at 9' width.

FWIW, the casters are sold by Clark Caster Co., part # 28M-S, at $19.10 each. The hoist & trolley are available from Hoists Direct, RH1-010 at $116.29, and RT1.0 at $98.99. The casters, chain hoist & trolley are all imported, but they are very high quality. The hoist & trolley are CE & GS certified, and meet ANSI specs.

http://www.clarkcaster.com/T_ViewCatalog.asp

http://www.hoistsdirect.com/


----------



## StrikerDown

precisionworks said:


> When you need to lift 1500# into the bed of a truck, a gantry crane is one easy solution. Shop built from left over materials, cost about $200 including the 8" locking casters on all four corners ... not counting the chain hoist & trolley, which adds another $150. The hoist & gantry are both rated for 2 tons.



Sweet!

One day I will have a shop that won't allow cars on a regular basis!


----------



## precisionworks

> I will have a shop that won't allow cars


Funny that you mention that, as the gantry & portable welder stay in the garage, which has more height than the shop. The top of the I-beam has 1" clearance underneath the door opener track

When the welder & gantry aren't in use, they roll over to the side of the garage, which leaves plenty of room for my wife to park her car. A gantry takes up a surprisingly small amount of floor space, but you have to have enough headroom (including the space taken by the chain hoist) to lift a load.


----------



## wquiles

wquiles said:


> Barry,
> 
> Going back to the OP's question of steel choices ... :naughty:
> 
> I need a piece of steel, really a rectangular block, to make a BXA-size tool holder for a parting/cut-off blade, and I would like it to be adaptable to work with a 26mm blade and a 32mm blade (basically one block with two clamping tops).
> 
> What would be the right steel type for such a tool holder?
> 
> Will



By the way, for this project I need a 2"x2" section, of between 3.5" and 4" long, and the recommendation was to use either 4130 or 4140 steel. I am checking with my local supplier today 

Will


----------



## wquiles

I put my recently finished RT/chuck combo to good use this week for a project I am working on. I had to enlarge the opening to fit some emiters, but boring all the way out would had weakened the head, so I decided to use the mill instead:

















everything fits now:


----------



## darkzero

Absolutely beautiful!


----------



## wquiles

Thanks Will. Here is the full post for the project:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/232273

One thing this project drives home is that I really need a DRO - those cuts on the mill I did by eye, and I would have preferred the DRO to help me out.

Will


----------



## wquiles

The steel for the custom parting blade holder for my lathe just came in:

4140 steel, 2" by 2" square, by 12" long:


----------

