# New Lathe...Changed from PM 1127-VF To a PM1236



## darkzero

No joking around this time. Hasn’t even been a year since I got my first lathe & here I am purchasing another. Being spoiled with the full size lathes I’ve got to run I couldn’t hold back any longer. 

*Ordered a *[URL="http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-1127-VF.html"]*PM-1127-VF*[/URL]* today. *

Since I’m currently limited to 110V for the time being this seemed to be the best buy that I could find. Hopefully this one will last me a while till I can upgrade to something even larger. There’s a few things I wish were different but that’s ok, I’ll learn to live with them for now. Really excited about the variable speed, ability to change fees without having to change gears, power cross feed with fairly good rates, features that aren’t commonly found all together on lathes this size & smaller.

As you all have stated Matt’s great & answered all my questions without hesitation & continued to ask me if I had any more as well as telling me to call back anytime if I could think of more questions to ask. And this was all after I gave him payment info which tells me he’s not just looking to take my money & really wants me to be happy with what I’m getting. He also offered me the “pre order” discount which I wasn’t even aware of. Saving $100 makes me feel even better as I wasn’t even expecting it! Also told me that even though the site states there are additional; charges for liftgate service & residential delivery I might not even get charged those fees. I’m not counting on it though as I was expecting these charges. I hope to buy my next lathe from him as well.

I don’t have any plans to sell my 8x14 though, not yet anyway. The 5” Bison 6 jaw will stay on my 8x14, I’ll be getting a 6” Bison 6-jaw for this one. J

Now on to the questions. Matt states a BXA tool post is a bit to large which was disappointing. In general AXA is for up to 12” swing & BXA is 10” & up. I know it really depends on the machine but hopefully I may be able to get away with using a BXA & milling the bottom of the holders (I’m used it it as that’s what I do now with the AXA holders). Or should I not even bother & just stick with AXA & have no worries except when wanting to use larger tooling? What do you guys think?


*EDIT: I've changed my mind. If I'm going to be spending this kind of money on lathe, I might as well buy something with as many features that I want that I can. Just got off the phone with Matt & changed my order to a PM1236. *


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## precisionworks

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*

Very nice ... you will love the 1.062" headstock bore 



> I may be able to get away with using a BXA & milling the bottom of the holders



AXA holders (using the dimensions in the Aloris catalog) are about 1.000" from bottom of block to top of tool shank ... 

BXA holders are 1.125" ...

If you've already cut a shank down to .500" to fit the AXA holder, you *may* need to remove another .125" so it hits center in the BXA. Or it may fit as is. It depends on how much thread is showing on the holder adjustment nut. Which means that you won't know until you try it 

Lots of info in the Aloris Catalog, but it is a 26 MB pdf file.

http://www.aloris.com/content/user_1/Aloris2006Catalog.pdf


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## darkzero

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*

Wow, bigger than the Bison catalog but still not bigger than the Sandik General Turning catalog which is 198 MB! 

Thanks for the info. One of the questions that I was asking, if the top of the cutter would get close to centerline, Matt said it wouldn't & they tried. When I get the lathe I'll pick up a BXA holder or hopefully find measurements on one to figure out if it's possible to use a BXA with 5/8" tools. I hope so but if not no big deal.


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## precisionworks

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*



> Matt said it wouldn't & they tried.


It probably will if you mill enough off the bottom of the shank.


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## darkzero

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*



precisionworks said:


> It probably will if you mill enough off the bottom of the shank.


 
As of right now doesn't sound like I would be able to use BXA. We'll see when I get it. I'd rather only mill the bottom of the holders & not the shank. If I have to mill the shank on a 5/8" tool to get to the correct height I think I might as well just stick with AXA.


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## wquiles

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*

Totally awesome Will - congrats :twothumbs

You will definitely love the larger, stiffer machine


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## saltytri

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*

Will, that machine rocks! :twothumbs

How are you going to get through all those sleepless nights till it comes? :laughing:


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## darkzero

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*



saltytri said:


> Will, that machine rocks! :twothumbs
> 
> How are you going to get through all those sleepless nights till it comes? :laughing:


 
Easy, I'll just find something to make that requires several different types of threads, with all the time it will take me to change the gears on my lathe now I will get tired very quick. :laughing:

All joking aside, since I've set it up for 20 TPI I haven't touched the change gear assy since except for engaging & disengaging for the leadscrew. There has been a few time where I needed to change back to the lowest feed rate (0.005) but I was too lazy& just fed it by hand. Didn't come out all that great but I managed to finish the pieces ok. I have a plan that will allow me to change back & forth from 20 TPI & 0.003 (0.005 is now slow enough) feed rate easier. Hope it works out.


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## saltytri

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*

I know how you feel . I keep mine at a metric 1.0 when messing with lights unless some particular situation requires a different thread. There's a belt drive to the leadscrew that is easily removed for normal turning.


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## bluwolf

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*

Will,

Big congrats on the new lathe! I know how you feel having to wait. I'm still waiting for mine. I have to call Matt today to find out more. Last week he said they were in the country but he didn't know when he would see them.

Mike


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*

Congrats Will! I know you're stoked. You're gonna love it and how much easier it makes the work you do.

I remember the waiting game when I ordered mine too. It seemed like an eternity. I ordered mine before it had been built though so I had an extra long wait. It was worth it though!


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## precisionworks

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*



> I'd rather only mill the bottom of the holders & not the shank.



Let's do the numbers :nana:

The total height of the AXA block is 1.500". The slot takes .500" of that, leaving .500" above & below the slot. Height of insert (which assumes that the insert tip is dead level with the top of the shank) is .500" + .500" = 1.000" 

Total height of the BXA block is 1.750". The slot is .625", leaving .563" above & below the slot. Height of insert is .563" + .625" = 1.188", so the BXA block raises the tip height by .188" . Since the lower part of the block, below the slot, is .563" thick, milling off .188" still leaves it at .375". If you had a 5 hp spindle, that might not be enough support. But it would seem to be more than enough for a 1 hp spindle. The entire contact area of the dovetail is used to transmit cutting forces from the insert to the toolpost, and milling the bottom of the block reduces that contact area by only 11%.

Very few equipment sellers recommend slicing up tooling, as the results are not always as expected. Try it on one holder & you'll know right away if it works to your satisfaction. Seems like it would


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## darkzero

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*

Thanks Fellas! Yes I am very stoked! Matt said teh shipment is expected around the 20th. As long as I get it by Christmas I'll be happy. If I don't, I still be happy anyways!  No worries on the wait. I have a lathe now anyways & I waited 3 months for my replacement Bison jaws to come from Poland so I'm used to it already.





precisionworks said:


> Let's do the numbers :nana:
> 
> The total height of the AXA block is 1.500". The slot takes .500" of that, leaving .500" above & below the slot. Height of insert (which assumes that the insert tip is dead level with the top of the shank) is .500" + .500" = 1.000"
> 
> Total height of the BXA block is 1.750". The slot is .625", leaving .563" above & below the slot. Height of insert is .563" + .625" = 1.188", so the BXA block raises the tip height by .188" . Since the lower part of the block, below the slot, is .563" thick, milling off .188" still leaves it at .375". If you had a 5 hp spindle, that might not be enough support. But it would seem to be more than enough for a 1 hp spindle. The entire contact area of the dovetail is used to transmit cutting forces from the insert to the toolpost, and milling the bottom of the block reduces that contact area by only 11%.
> 
> Very few equipment sellers recommend slicing up tooling, as the results are not always as expected. Try it on one holder & you'll know right away if it works to your satisfaction. Seems like it would


 
Awesome, thanks Barry! Milling off .188" is way too much & I wouldn't be comfortable with that amount. With my AXAs I only get 0.040" milled off. I think I'll just stick with AXA unless I find something different when the lathe arrives. Now to wait for MSC's 35-40% off days!


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## niner

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*



darkzero said:


> Thanks Fellas! Yes I am very stoked! Matt said teh shipment is expected around the 20th. As long as I get it by Christmas I'll be happy. If I don't, I still be happy anyways!  No worries on the wait. I have a lathe now anyways & I waited 3 months for my replacement Bison jaws to come from Poland so I'm used to it already.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome, thanks Barry! Milling off .188" is way too much & I wouldn't be comfortable with that amount. With my AXAs I only get 0.040" milled off. I think I'll just stick with AXA unless I find something different when the lathe arrives. Now to wait for MSC's 35-40% off days!


 
Today is your lucky day! MSC has 35% off if your purchase is over $199. Today only.

*WEB35*


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## darkzero

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*



niner said:


> Today is your lucky day! MSC has 35% off if your purchase is over $199. Today only.
> 
> *WEB35*


 
Thanks got it too but today is “up to 35% off” & doesn’t apply any discount to the item I’m looking to buy.


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## niner

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*



darkzero said:


> Thanks got it too but today is “up to 35% off” & doesn’t apply any discount to the item I’m looking to buy.


 
 you are right. For the stuff I want, they are only 15% off.


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## darkzero

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*



niner said:


> you are right. For the stuff I want, they are only 15% off.


 
Oh well, I ended up getting what I wanted for the price I am happy with anyway. Now to get a new chuck so waiting on another sale day. 


Ok so I've been thinking. I know it's great to have another lathe around for second ops & such but I doubt I will use the 8x14 very much after getting the PM up & running. I know it all depends on the type of work I plan to do but I'm not sure if I would need another lathe available. I wasn't interested in selling but I could use the room & the money to put down towards a mill which I DO NEED. I don't want to go through the trouble of having to ship it. I think if I can find a buyer locally it will get sold. I don't mind keeping it too though as long as I can make use for it. What do you guys think? 

So I guess I'll probably have a great package for sale early next year since I have so much for it (even parts for DRO that I started on) but I'll probably sell the 5" Bison 6 jaw with backplate for the 8x14 seperately unless someone really wants to dump that kind of cash in a mini lathe all at once. :thinking:


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## wquiles

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*

My vote: Sell the 8x - definitely. Use the money for more "stuff", like a DRO for the new/larger lathe.

Will


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## tino_ale

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*

Is there a specific reason why you didn't get the PM1236 (I mean besides a lower price...) ?

Definetely looking forward to what you'll come up with your new tool


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## darkzero

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*



tino_ale said:


> Is there a specific reason why you didn't get the PM1236 (I mean besides a lower price...) ?



Yes power requirements & the noise. I don't need the lady next door knocking at my door anymore. :laughing:


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*



darkzero said:


> Yes power requirements & the noise. I don't need the lady next door knocking at my door anymore. :laughing:


 
This machine should hold you for awhile... a little while anyway :devil:.


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## bf1

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*

Best of luck with it.
Congrats!
Barry


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## darkzero

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*



Mirage_Man said:


> This machine should hold you for awhile... a little while anyway :devil:.


 
Hopefully more than a year this time. You're starting to know me far too well. 




bf1 said:


> Best of luck with it.
> Congrats!
> Barry


 
Thanks Barry!


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## easilyled

*Re: Seriously....My New Lathe....PM 1127-VF*

Congratulations Will. I look forward to seeing what excellent creations are born from this. :wave:


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## darkzero

*Re: Seriously...My New Lathe...PM 1127-VF - NOT ANYMORE...*

Ok I’ve been doing some more thinking. Based on various reasons & the most helpful conversations with Will (was great talking you!) & Brian, I’ve decided to go with a PM1236.  Called Matt today, changed my order, & paid the difference. He said these are due to arrive around the same time as the 1127-VF so I’m cool.

Now I need to figure out how I am going to deal with the 220v situation which also has an impact on the long term location of this lathe. Now that I look at my current garage setup I don’t think it will be a big deal to hook up 220v but still I have very little experience with this type of wiring.


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## Tekno_Cowboy

*Re: Seriously...My New Lathe...PM 1127-VF - NOT ANYMORE...*

220v can be done a couple different ways, and both are fairly simple.

Is that PM1236 single-phase?


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## wquiles

*Re: Seriously...My New Lathe...PM 1127-VF - NOT ANYMORE...*



darkzero said:


> Ok I’ve been doing some more thinking. Based on various reasons & the most helpful conversations with Will (was great talking you!) & Brian, I’ve decided to go with a PM1236.  Called Matt today, changed my order, & paid the difference. He said these are due to arrive around the same time as the 1127-VF so I’m cool.
> 
> Now I need to figure out how I am going to deal with the 220v situation which also has an impact on the long term location of this lathe. Now that I look at my current garage setup I don’t think it will be a big deal to hook up 220v but still I have very little experience with this type of wiring.



Glad you are getting the larger/heavier/stiffer machine - congrats 




Tekno_Cowboy said:


> 220v can be done a couple different ways, and both are fairly simple.
> 
> Is that PM1236 single-phase?



Yes, the PM1236 is a 220V single-phase machine.


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## precisionworks

*Re: Seriously...My New Lathe...PM 1127-VF - NOT ANYMORE...*

That machine comes with a 2 hp single phase motor. You could swap in a 2 hp (or 3 hp) three phase motor & use a freq drive for phase conversion & speed control. About $75-$100 for the motor, $225 for the 2 hp drive, $285 for the 3 hp drive.

Great decision to go with the bigger machine. Size does matter


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## easilyled

*Re: Seriously...My New Lathe...PM 1127-VF - NOT ANYMORE...*



darkzero said:


> Ok I’ve been doing some more thinking. Based on various reasons & the most helpful conversations with Will (was great talking you!) & Brian, I’ve decided to go with a PM1236.  Called Matt today, changed my order, & paid the difference. He said these are due to arrive around the same time as the 1127-VF so I’m cool.
> 
> Now I need to figure out how I am going to deal with the 220v situation which also has an impact on the long term location of this lathe. Now that I look at my current garage setup I don’t think it will be a big deal to hook up 220v but still I have very little experience with this type of wiring.



Will, I have the perfect solution. Come and work in my garage in the UK. The voltage output here will be just right.


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## bluwolf

*Re: Seriously...My New Lathe...PM 1127-VF - NOT ANYMORE...*



darkzero said:


> Ok I’ve been doing some more thinking. Based on various reasons & the most helpful conversations with Will (was great talking you!) & Brian, I’ve decided to go with a PM1236.  Called Matt today, changed my order, & paid the difference. He said these are due to arrive around the same time as the 1127-VF so I’m cool.


 
RE-Congratulations!!! Once you sort out the electrical situation (I like Barry's idea) you know you will be so much happier.

Mike


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## Mirage_Man

Dude, you will not be sorry you went with the bigger machine. The larger spindle bore alone makes a big difference. 

Congrats!


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## tino_ale

Yet another 1236 :thumbsup:


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## darkzero

Now that I'm getting the bigger lathe & got my new TP, time to sell my "old" TP. I thought i'd offer it here on CPF before putting it up on ebay.

It's very smooth & solid compared to the china AXA TP from Lathemaster on my 8x14. The wedges are beefy & also has guides for them unlike the China AXA wedges that are very loose. Brand new as received & comes with the T nut post.

I'd like $230 for it shipped (PP CC fees not included). If anyone is interested please send me a PM or email. Planning to put it up on ebay next weekend.


DTM TP65A AXA


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## cmacclel

Showing off the Dorian...... I have been perfectly happy with my phase II wedge holder. I hold tolerances with it that you need a micrometer to measure. 

I was going to upgrade to a Dorian myself after playing with one on the HAAS TL1 I was going to buy but mine's working fine.

Mac


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## darkzero

I'm know for a fact that I would have been perfectly fine with a PhaseII or even a decent no name China TP but since I'm "starting over" with the new lathe I figured I might as well take the opportunity. Plus I had to use the coupon on something.


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## darkzero

I've got a guy coming out tomorrow to hook up the power. Is a 20A breaker sufficient or do I need a 30A?


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## precisionworks

> Is a 30A breaker sufficient or will I need a 40A?


Matt told me the motor hp, which I cannot now remember 

At 220-240 volts, 1ph, a three hp motor draws 12-15 FLA (full load amps). A five hp motor draws 20-25 FLA. If the motor is 3hp, the 30A breaker is fine (#10 AWG is used). If the motor is 5hp, it may or may not trip a 30A breaker on startup, and the 40A circuit is a better choice (#8 AWG).


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## darkzero

Thanks. He did mention we were going to use 10 AWG. Say If I ever do decide to upgrade to a larger motor & VFD, should I just have 8 AWG installed now? Don't think I would go with a 5hp, maybe just 3hp unless it's recommended. Would I still be ok with 10 AWG?


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## precisionworks

> Would I still be ok with 10 AWG?


That's still more than enough for every 3hp VFD that I know of. They all call for #12 input wiring (20A capacity), so #10 leaves enough extra capacity to install & run another machine at the same time.

Larger wiring, like #8 or #6, is often used for a welder or other heavy draw machine.


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## darkzero

Come to think of it, I think Matt said it was a 2HP motor. Not sure how much different the Grizzly G4003G is but the manual says minimum circuit size 15A, 2HP 12A motor.

So install 10AWG in case of future upgrade (length across a two car garage) & just use a 20A breaker for now?


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## precisionworks

> Don't think I would go with a 5hp


As much as I like big motors, 3hp is the upper limit of "cheap" VFD's with 1ph input. The cost of going to a 5hp VFD is almost triple that of a 3hp drive.

I expect this to change in the future, as VFD prices continue to come down. 3hp on a 12" swing lathe should still be more than adequate.



> So install 10AWG in case of future upgrade (length across a two car garage) & just use a 20A breaker for now?


Your electrician will most likely want to install the MCCB that is rated to protect the conductor - which is 30A for 10 AWG. A circuit breaker provides *NO *motor protection, it simply keeps the conductors from melting & burning down your shop, and the 20A breaker offers no advantage. The lathe motor may have internal protection (a thermal switch that pops up when overheated), or the machine may have a thermal overload or an electronic overload. All of these are motor protection devices which are set to trip at 125% of motor FLA, as specified by the National Electrical Code, section 430-32.


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## wquiles

Will, yes, the motor on the PM1236 is a 2HP motor. Of course, those are "questionable" HP ratings 



precisionworks said:


> 3hp on a 12" swing lathe should still be more than adequate.



My "plan" is still to install a 5HP VFD at some point on my machine. I already have the new 5HP Baldor motor, so I just have to save enough money to buy the NEMA4 10HP VFD so that I can get started. Now that I finally have (thanks to Barry) the VFD on the mill, I "have" to hurry up and "get it done" (quoting the famous Larry - from blue collar tour) ...


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## darkzero

Cool, thanks a mil! :twothumbs

I like what I'm hearing about 10AWG being able to run another machine (such as a mill). Although I doubt I would ever run two machines at once anyway so it should be fine regardless. I don't want to be like my buddy's neighbor who is a retired machinist who has to turn on the bandsaw first, then one of the smaller lathes, before he can use the big lathe. :laughing:

Ok 10 AWG & a 20A breaker it is.

I don't see myself going foward with a VFD conversion for at least another year but if I do I think I will just stick with 3HP.


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## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> Your electrician will most likely want to install the MCCB that is rated to protect the conductor - which is 30A for 10 AWG. A circuit breaker provides *NO *motor protection, it simply keeps the conductors from melting & burning down your shop, and the 20A breaker offers no advantage. The lathe motor may have internal protection (a thermal switch that pops up when overheated), or the machine may have a thermal overload or an electronic overload. All of these are motor protection devices which are set to trip at 125% of motor FLA, as specified by the National Electrical Code, section 430-32.


 
I see, so it really doesn't make a difference between 20A or a 30A breaker if using 10AWG?

So is there any advantage of even going with the 10AWG? Would 12AWG & 20A be sufficient even if I were to go with a 3HP VFD conversion in the future?

When he came to look at the garage last week, I just remembered something like 30A & is why he said to go with 10 AWG I assume. I also mentioned that I would like to run a mill in the future. He stated that it would be best to run another breaker & seperate line for that. However he probably assumed that they would be ran simutaneoulsy.


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## StrikerDown

darkzero said:


> I see, so it really doesn't make a difference between 20A or a 30A breaker if using 10AWG?
> 
> So is there any advantage of even going with the 10AWG? Would 12AWG & 20A be sufficient even if I were to go with a 3HP VFD conversion in the future?
> 
> When he came to look at the garage last week, I just remembered something like 30A & is why he said to go with 10 AWG I assume. I also mentioned that I would like to run a mill in the future. He stated that it would be best to run another breaker & seperate line for that. However he probably assumed that they would be ran simutaneoulsy.



The main advantage is extra capacity on that circuit should you need it in the future. If he is going to run separate circuits for each machine there is no advantage to #10 wire over #12. Your lathe with 2hp probably will draw 8 to 11 amps on a 220v circuit. A 20amp breaker will be perfect unless you decide to run another machine at the same time on that circuit. you might get away with it but it's not recommended. the 10awg is cheap insurance should you decide to run a larger demand later, you won't have to buy the wire and install time again. It should not cost a lot more for #10 over #12. Should you run #10 and a 30 amp breaker you will need to use a 30 amp plug and receptacle (unless you hard wire the machine to the box).


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## precisionworks

> the 10awg is cheap insurance should you decide to run a larger demand later, you won't have to buy the wire and install time again.


+1

Most of the installation cost is labor, so running #10 will cost almost nothing more than running #12. Much like the old saying about being able to do smaller work on a larger lathe, you can always run smaller loads on a larger conductor. The #10 AWG & 30A breaker are the most attractive option, all things considered.


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## precisionworks

> Now that I finally have (thanks to Barry) the VFD on the mill


Don't thank me, Will, as you configured the drive - without assistance - in a way that includes all the bells & whistles. It is nice to have a "resident" EE on this forum


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## darkzero

Thanks for the advice guys. Ok I will opt for the #10 & 30A. I would like to run another machine in the future but not at the same time so only one or the other would be running. 

I also read where someone said to run four wire to cover anything that may be changed later. I would only run a lathe, mill, or maybe even a bandsaw (not likely) so I don't see a need to. 10-2 should be all that I need right?

As you can see I know very little about AC wiring & nothing about 220v so I'm trying to learn the basics. I just want to do it right the first time so it won't cost me later.

This is the plug I was planning to buy:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=71242-334-S42-SP-L&lpage=none
or this
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=71250-334-S80-SP-L&lpage=none

Does it matter which one, difference other than the blade orientation?


And the matching recepticle (couldn't find the link) that looks similar to Will's here (3rd pic down & following: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2768806#post2768806

Or do I just have him use a metal box with a socket mounted in it as commonly seen in shops?


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## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> It is nice to have a "resident" EE on this forum


 
As well as the machinist guru! This subforum should be named "Barry's" forum.


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## precisionworks

> Does it matter which one, difference other than the blade orientation?


Not really, Will, as long as the volt & amp rating are adequate for the intended load. For machines up to 3hp, the first item is fine. If you go to a supply house, it's referred to as a NEMA 6-50P (plug) or NEMA 6-50R (receptacle).

The second item is what you often see on mid sized welders, as well as on many electric clothes dryers. It's a NEMA 10-50P and NEMA 10-50R.

Either one is a good choice, as both are readily available at Ace, True Value, and most Big Box stores. The pass through opening in either one is pretty big so you'll need a rubber grommet to make your line cord fit properly.



> someone said to run four wire to cover anything that may be changed later.


Four conductor, like 10/4, is normally used only for three phase wiring. 10/2 with ground is the conventional conductor for 220-240 volt wiring. You may want to ask your electrician how much additional charge there is to wire in a _second breaker plus a second receptacle_ - which may come in really handy in years to come. Getting as much as possible done during one trip is a money saver.


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## cmacclel

When I had my Grizzly I ran 12 gauge with a 20 amp breaker. I believe the Grizzly motor was rated at 9amps at 220v. If your not handy with wiring maybe you should just have him run some 8 gauge romex that way your covered for 60 amps if need be. The cost of the wire itself is negligible compared to the labor cost. 



Mac


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## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> Not really, Will, as long as the volt & amp rating are adequate for the intended load. For machines up to 3hp, the first item is fine. If you go to a supply house, it's referred to as a NEMA 6-50P (plug) or NEMA 6-50R (receptacle).
> 
> The second item is what you often see on mid sized welders, as well as on many electric clothes dryers. It's a NEMA 10-50P and NEMA 10-50R.
> 
> Either one is a good choice, as both are readily available at Ace, True Value, and most Big Box stores. The pass through opening in either one is pretty big so you'll need a rubber grommet to make your line cord fit properly.
> 
> Four conductor, like 10/4, is normally used only for three phase wiring. 10/2 with ground is the conventional conductor for 220-240 volt wiring. You may want to ask your electrician how much additional charge there is to wire in a _second breaker plus a second receptacle_ - which may come in really handy in years to come. Getting as much as possible done during one trip is a money saver.


 

Ok, it's done. 10-2 30A NEMA 10-50R. Cost me $100 in parts & $100 labor but I'll need to patch up an additional hole in the drywall. 

I didn't see this until just now but I like that idea about the second breaker & receptacle. My plan is not to keep the lathe here permanantly but I definitely keep that in mind whenever that time is.

Thanks again for everyone's help! Now the waiting game continues. :candle:


----------



## darkzero

cmacclel said:


> When I had my Grizzly I ran 12 gauge with a 20 amp breaker. I believe the Grizzly motor was rated at 9amps at 220v. If your not handy with wiring maybe you should just have him run some 8 gauge romex that way your covered for 60 amps if need be. The cost of the wire itself is negligible compared to the labor cost.
> 
> 
> 
> Mac


 
We ended up running 10 guage in flexible conduit & ran it along the corners of the ceiling. He suggested romex as it would be cheaper & less labor but I didn't want an orange cable running along the walls.


----------



## cmacclel

darkzero said:


> We ended up running 10 guage in flexible conduit & ran it along the corners of the ceiling. He suggested romex as it would be cheaper & less labor but I didn't want an orange cable running along the walls.




Flexible conduit? Hmm usually they use EMT or PVC is ok for a detached garage.



darkzero said:


> My plan is not to keep the lathe here permanantly but I definitely keep that in mind whenever that time is.
> :candle:



I ran my Grizzly off a Husky heavy duty extension cord for 6 months  

Mac


----------



## darkzero

cmacclel said:


> Flexible conduit? Hmm usually they use EMT or PVC is ok for a detached garage.
> Mac


 
Yeah,like this: http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=69855-1267-FO7500025M&lpage=none

Why is that a no no? Our garage is attached to the house, there are rooms above it.  There's another line of the same flexible conduit in the garage too for our yard lights so I didn't think it would be an issue. 

I would have preferred the EMT for a nicer look but this is not my garage & I'm sure the labor to do all the bending would have left me broke. I want to just get up & running without having to spend a fortune. When I get my own garage I'll definitely make it more of a shop rather than a garage.


----------



## Atlascycle

Did they run flex conduit or Armored Cable?

If it flex conduit than you will be able to pull new wires yourself if you ever want to upgrade in the future.

Jason


----------



## precisionworks

> Flexible conduit? Hmm usually they use EMT


Article 350 in the NEC specifies only a few places where FMC (flexible metal conduit) is not allowed - wet locations, in hoistways, in storage battery rooms, in any hazardous (classified) location, nor underground or embedded in poured concrete (NEC350-2).

Local regs always preempt the NEC and may be more strict than the NEC, but an electrician familiar with the local codes will know what is acceptable & what is not.

The advantage to FMC is lightning fast installation. When a union electrician is billing out $2 per minute (plus materials), you want him in and done as quickly as possible


----------



## darkzero

Atlascycle said:


> Did they run flex conduit or Armored Cable?
> 
> If it flex conduit than you will be able to pull new wires yourself if you ever want to upgrade in the future.
> 
> Jason


 
Flex conduit & seperate wires fed through. For the armored cable the largest Lowes had was 12 guage, sounds like it was a good thing not buying it. Now that I saw what he did, I think I could have done it myself had I known but I think I still would rather have paid for the work. I'm scared of AC.  I have no doubt in my mind that I could take it all down & run thicker wire if ever needed.




precisionworks said:


> The advantage to FMC is lightning fast installation. When a union electrician is billing out $2 per minute (plus materials), you want him in and done as quickly as possible


----------



## StrikerDown

darkzero said:


> Flex conduit & seperate wires fed through. For the armored cable the largest Lowes had was 12 guage, sounds like it was a good thing not buying it. Now that I saw what he did, I think I could have done it myself had I known but I think I still would rather have paid for the work. I'm scared of AC.  I have no doubt in my mind that I could take it all down & run thicker wire if ever needed.



If you run larger or more wires flex is often difficult to push a fish tape through especially on longer runs with existing wire inside or with 180 degrees or more worth of turns. You can however use the existing wire to pull in the new wire if not keeping the old or pull in a pulling rope by disconnecting the wires attaching small nylon or polypropeline rope and pull out the old wires (all) pulling in the rope attach new wire and old if re-using and pull it all back in having someone feed it in keeping it from getting tangled/twisted up. 

I don't really like flex for much more than short box to machine installs, but Barry is as usual right on, it's quick to install. To be up to code you must run a ground wire through flex but emt or rigid conduit is in most areas a sufficient ground conductor. 

I did use flex when I wired mine... 11 inches from the bottom of the panel to the top of the box inside the garage right behind the lathe! It can't get much simpler! :nana:

Glad you got it in, now for the beast, anxious yet?


----------



## darkzero

StrikerDown said:


> If you run larger or more wires flex is often difficult to push a fish tape through especially on longer runs with existing wire inside or with 180 degrees or more worth of turns. You can however use the existing wire to pull in the new wire if not keeping the old or pull in a pulling rope by disconnecting the wires attaching small nylon or polypropeline rope and pull out the old wires (all) pulling in the rope attach new wire and old if re-using and pull it all back in having someone feed it in keeping it from getting tangled/twisted up.
> 
> I don't really like flex for much more than short box to machine installs, but Barry is as usual right on, it's quick to install. To be up to code you must run a ground wire through flex but emt or rigid conduit is in most areas a sufficient ground conductor.
> 
> I did use flex when I wired mine... 11 inches from the bottom of the panel to the top of the box inside the garage right behind the lathe! It can't get much simpler! :nana:
> 
> Glad you got it in, now for the beast, anxious yet?


 
I could imagine. Dude forget to bring his fish tape (my buddy's friend), we had to run the wires through the hard way. No way we would have done it without running the wires prior to putting up the conduit. I doubt I will ever need to upgrade the wire & don't plan on it, not for a very long time anyway. I'll probably take it all down anyway when I move.

Ground wire? The flexible conduit was attached to the bottom of the panel with a fitting, red, black, & green wires were used. Green to the ground on the socket & the other end grounded to the bar inside the panel. He measured 110 from each flat prong to the groung prong & 220v between both flat prongs (excuse my terminology). That's all I need right, I'm good? 

He said if anything all I would need to do is swap red & black at the breaker if the motor spins backwards but it shouldn't since it's single phase, right?

Thanks, yes I am getting very anxious now that the power is ready & waiting.


----------



## StrikerDown

Switching leads on single phase won't do anything, it's already switching 60 times per second, switch any 2 of the 3 on 3 ph to reverse rotation.

Correct on the green/ground wire, sounds like they did it right.


----------



## 65535

darkzero said:


> Ground wire? The flexible conduit was attached to the bottom of the panel with a fitting, red, black, & green wires were used. Green to the ground on the socket & the other end grounded to the bar inside the panel. He measured 110 from each flat prong to the groung prong & 220v between both flat prongs (excuse my terminology). That's all I need right, I'm good?
> 
> If you're running 110/220V with a neutral line you will need 4 wires.
> Hot, Hot, Neutral, Ground.
> 
> Using the ground as a neutral conductor is not a good idea, it works more or less, but it means the ground in your shop will probably become hot when a load is connected to it, which at best will trip a GFCI breaker, but could fry you if you touched a "grounded" part that is grounded to a hot ground.
> 
> Technically you could run 110V/220V without a ground, but I wouldn't recommend that either.
> 
> He said if anything all I would need to do is swap red & black at the breaker if the motor spins backwards but it shouldn't since it's single phase, right?
> 
> 1Ph motors are fixed rotation, they do not reverse, at least 99% of them don't some are purpose built to, but not many.
> 
> If you have a 3Ph motor, reversing 2 of the 3Ph conductors will reverse the rotation.
> 
> Thanks, yes I am getting very anxious now that the power is ready & waiting.


----------



## StrikerDown

Assuming this PM 1236 is the same as Willquiles PM 1236 it does not need a neutral. The 220 volt source feeds into a multi tap transformer that steps down to various other voltages like the 28V for the work light and whatever voltage is used for the coolant pump.

The only reason a neutral is needed on some machines is if it uses the neut and one hot leg for a 110V source. Like a 110V work light, or a computer, etc.

The green is ground only and Will said he has that.

Come to think of it Will Q's 1236 came with a power cord attached from the factory and it had the white wire attached to the ground bar in the machine as it did not have a green colored conductor in the cord. Will, you need to check that on your machine. If the power cord has two black or red wires they need to be connected to the red/black wires your electrician put in via the brass collored screws in the plug, its not important if red goes to red and blk to blk when they pass through the connectors. If the power cord is like Wills and only has a white and no green check to see if the white in the wiring panel is connected to the ground bar. if it is then this is the ground wire, it should be green not white. if you use this power cord the ground wire whatever it's color must be connected to the green screw in the male plug. I suggest if your power cable does not have a green ground conductor that you replace it with one that does to eliminate confusion in the future, or at a very minimum use green tape to cover the white showing on both ends of the cord.

My PM 1440 did not come with a power cord attached, it also only uses two hot legs (220V) and a ground, the transformer steps down the voltage for the 28v work light and the 110V DRO. No tap was available in the machine for a neutral.


----------



## wquiles

That is correct, no neutral needed on the PM1236. You just need the two hots and ground


----------



## 65535

Good to know, i know some machines like 3Ph and larger 1Ph use a neutral to power readouts and such, but come to think of it your guy's lathes are pretty simple, no CNC or anything, so they wouldn't need that.


----------



## wquiles

I ordered my PM1236 with a pre-installed DRO, but the DRO is powered directly from the 220V, so there was no need for the neutral/120V. The other built-in "device" is the lamp, but the lamp works from the same internal transformer (24V AC) used to power/actuate the relays, so again, no need for neutral/120V.


----------



## darkzero

StrikerDown said:


> I suggest if your power cable does not have a green ground conductor that you replace it with one that does to eliminate confusion in the future, or at a very minimum use green tape to cover the white showing on both ends of the cord.


 
You know, I was already planning on replacing the power cord & one of the reasons is because of the "improper" color codes of the wires. I thought I was just being stupid & anal but matbe not, so thanks Ray! :wave:


----------



## darkzero

Please educate me. 

Since I'm getting the bigger lathe now, is there any reason for me NOT to get an 8" 6 jaw Set-Tru? Seeing that the lathe does come with an 8" 4 jaw I'm looking at getting an 8" 6 jaw. I know some of you guys had the 6 jaw before getting the new lathe but in my case I won't be using the 5" 6 jaw on the 12x36.

Only issue I can see is the motor getting the heavier chuck up to speed. How much heavier is the 8" over the 6" & should I worry about this? I would love the extra capacity as the 5" just seems a bit small, the 6-1/4" isn't that much bigger.

Thanks


----------



## saltytri

Will, my Bison catalog shows the 6" at 25 lbs and the 8" at 42 lbs. The thru holes are 1.654" and 2.165".

What that means to your lathe, I'm not qualified to answer. About all I can say is that the 6" is clearly big enough for any flashlight I'm ever going to make! On the other hand, we've all had the experience of our tools being not quite big enough to do a job that we want to to do.

David


----------



## darkzero

saltytri said:


> we've all had the experience of our tools being not quite big enough to do a job that we want to to do.
> 
> David


 
As well as using/buying tools that are overkill for what we need. 


Thanks David. I have the Bison PDF on my netbook but haven't looked & this yet. Wow, that's a big difference, almost twice the weight! :sigh: Hopefully someone might have some input about the motor getting that weight up to speed. 

I figure since it's a gap bed, might as well go the biggest I can although I may never need to remove the gap. Hmm, maybe I can turn the rotors on my truck, been a while since I've used the Ammco brake lathe. :laughing:

One thing I just thought of, wondering if there might be an issue with chuck guard clearance with the jaws on the 8" open at full capacity. 

Will, with your 6" jaws wide open, how close do the jaws come to the guard? In your opinion you think it might hit? Of course I know this would just be a crude estimation.


----------



## wquiles

I have also toyed with the idea of the 8" version of the chuck I have now, but I have never needed it (yet), so the 6" will be on my lathe for a while longer. Unless you just have money to burn, I would stick with the 6" on the 12x lathe - you will always have access to the 4-jaw 8" that comes with the lathe for that "occasional" large part that the 6" can't handle. Plus as you know, the 2-part jaws on the 6" are reversible, so the 6" can hold quite the range of stock.

One point in favor of the 8" is the larger ID on the 8" - that does come handy from time to time, since to get a steady/solid grip on a heavy piece by having a good portion of the stock inside the chuck, you are restricted to about 1.6" ID or so in the 6". Good thing for me this has not been too big of a problem as for threading "D" size mags I can have the complete host inside the 6" chuck and spindle - I typically only have about 1" or less of the "D" mag sticking out of the face of the chuck 




darkzero said:


> Will, with your 6" jaws wide open, how close do the jaws come to the guard? In your opinion you think it might hit? Of course I know this would just be a crude estimation.


I just measured 1.1" clearance from the top of the fully extended jaws (almost falling from the chuck), to the edge of the chuck guard.


----------



## darkzero

wquiles said:


> I just measured 1.1" clearance from the top of the fully extended jaws (almost falling from the chuck), to the edge of the chuck guard.


 
Cool, thanks for taking the time to measure for me. :thumbsup:


----------



## darkzero

darkzero said:


> Now that I'm getting the bigger lathe & got my new TP, time to sell my "old" TP. I thought i'd offer it here on CPF before putting it up on ebay.
> 
> It's very smooth & solid compared to the china AXA TP from Lathemaster on my 8x14. The wedges are beefy & also has guides for them unlike the China AXA wedges that are very loose. Brand new as received & comes with the T nut post.
> 
> I'd like $230 for it shipped (PP CC fees not included). If anyone is interested please send me a PM or email. Planning to put it up on ebay next weekend.
> 
> 
> DTM TP65A AXA


 
Bump

If anyone from CPF is interested I'll give them a really good deal on it. Pictures in post # 33

I also have a brand new 5.1" 6 jaw chuck that I will also give a really good deal to a CPF member. Same chuck as this: http://www.grizzly.com/products/5-6-Jaw-Scroll-Chuck/G9853

PM or email me if interested (I'll continue to list them on ebay every so often). Happy Holidays. :wave:


----------



## gadget_lover

I'd love to take you up on it, but I think both are too big for my 7 inch lathe. My 4 inch chuck is about big enough.

If you post the dimensions of the TP, people can check to see if it would have too much overhang for their particular lathe. I have a 2 inch square plinth on mine, with the mounting hole 1 inch from the edge. Where would that put the dovetails? Over the edge or to the edge?

Daniel


----------



## darkzero

Thanks for suggestion Daniel, good idea. :thumbsup: If someone really would like to know I will be happy to measure it. It is a bit taller than the AXA TP from Lathemaster. I would assume any lathe currently using an AXA now should have no issues using this DTM. 

With my 8x14 I need to take 0.04" off the bottom of the shortened Lathemaster AXA holders to be able to use 1/2" tools. I'm sure any 7x lathe will not be able to use this TP without some heavy modifications. 

The 5.1" / 130mm chuck is perfect & the largest I would go on a 8x14 but will need a custom adapter plate to fit it. If it doesn't sell I'll probably just offer it with my 8x14 when I sell it as I doubt the buyer would be willing to buy the lathe with the 5" Bison 6 jaw that I have on it now.

:wave:


----------



## Tekno_Cowboy

I might be interested in the 6-jaw if I could convince you to make me an adapter plate for it. (I've got the same HF 8x14 you do)

Does it have 2 sets of jaws?
What is the max diameter stock you can mount in the chuck on the 8x14?


----------



## darkzero

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> I might be interested in the 6-jaw if I could convince you to make me an adapter plate for it. (I've got the same HF 8x14 you do)
> 
> Does it have 2 sets of jaws?
> What is the max diameter stock you can mount in the chuck on the 8x14?


 
Unfortuantely I don't ever want to make a backplate again, not in cast iron anway. I made one for the 5" Bison 6-jaw by modifying a blank 5" adapter, nobody told me it was going to be so damn messy!  If I had to do it again I think I would just use steel....

This chuck is actually 5.1" which is 130mm. My 5" 3 jaw & Bison 6 jaw are 5.0" / 125mm so I saved alot of time by starting with a 5" adapter. Since this one is bigger you'd have to start out with a 6" which would be a lot of turning fine dust or start out with some other stock. The Bison is a set tru so the mounting holes were not that critical. This one is a plain back with no fine adjustments on the chuck so the holes on the adapter are critical, I don't have a mill & I don't think I could pull it off with just a drill press.

Plus I just got confirmation that my new lathe shipped today so I'll be busy preparing & setting up for that. I have even stopped taking on mod requests because of this.

It only comes with one set of jaws & I don't think they are reversable. I don't know exactly what the max diameter it can hold but I can check if you are interested.

BTW, did you get your lathe back up & running?


----------



## precisionworks

> nobody told me it was going to be so damn messy!


Turning cast iron isn't that bad ... if you have a Shop Vac with Gore-Tex filter. The vac captures most of the nasty stuff, and very little gets airborne or on the machine.

I had a big bore motor built by Randy Torgeson

http://www.kingofcubes.com/about.htm

He uses ductile iron Dura-Bar that comes to him already cut to length. Probably 90% of the bar stock goes into the sucker hose positioned directly above the tool point - no dust or cast iron fines anywhere in his shop. Which is good, as his Fadal CNC machining center would not be happy 

http://www.dura-bar.com/


----------



## darkzero

Chuck has been sold. The DTM AXA QCTP is still available & so will a China BXA wedge QCTP be available in about a week.


----------



## darkzero

Lathe is here. Here are the pics (My bad Will  :laughing: :wave

Arrived Wed 1/6. I nearly had a heart attack when the driver first tried to unload it as the trailor was facing down the hill. I though the whole thing was going to roll right out the trailor when he was pulling it out from inside the trailor on the pallet jack. 









After some talking he agreed that it was a good idea to face the truck the other way down the hill. He drove down to the bottom of the hill, got the lathe onto the lift gate, lowered it down, strapped it, then proceeded to back up back to my house & I'm glad he did as I almost crapped my pants the first attempt he made.


















Still couldn't make it up the driveway with the pallet jack so he manuevered the trailor halfway onto the driveway. Still some height off the ground with the lift gate but he pulled as I pushed & we got it off. :sweat:













Safe & sound.












Yesterday (Sat 1/9) my buddy came over with the engine hoist & we made the move. A bit tricky but still easier than the motor swaps I used to do. :laughing: It's now happily resting in it's final resting place & the owner is even happier! Just need to clean her up, some more minor assembly, wire up the plug, & flip the breaker! Oh & get the garage back in straight order! 








Here are some differences I noticed right off the bat from the pics of Will's:

Not sure if the relocation of the coolant nozzle is a good thing or a bad thing, I won't be using it anyway.












I've got 3 gallons of DTE Medium/Heavy waiting. How should I go about break in before changing the oil? I've also got plenty of HDD magnets waiting too. Will would be proud of me 

Blank T for the Dorian SQCTP has been sent off to Barry for machining. I can't beleive it's finally here! Thanks CPF & Matt!!!!


----------



## Mirage_Man

Congrats Dude! You're gonna love it.

Now get to work .


----------



## wquiles

darkzero said:


> Lathe is here. Here are the pics (My bad Will  :laughing: :wave


OK, ok, you are forgiven 

Seriously, congrats on the delivery of the lathe :twothumbs

You will absolutely LOVE the extra rigidity, much larger working envelope, and gobs more power :naughty:


----------



## precisionworks

Nice machine. Always good to get it into the shop


----------



## darkzero

Thanks Fellas




Mirage_Man said:


> Now get to work .


 
I know, I know.  I've got all sorts of stuff on my list to make.

Damn I hate overspray, bothers the hell out of me. She's all spify clean now & plug is wired up. I'll fire her up tomorrow. Will work on cleaning up more of the overspray later. Already see a few mods that I need to do to the compound & tailstock. I'm off to Vegas next weekend & the tool post is mounted yet so no chips till after.

In the meantime I'll work on getting my 8x14 up for sale.


----------



## precisionworks

> I'm off to Vegas next weekend


Why anyone would want to go there, where the temps will reach 64 °F today? Come visit those of us in the Deep Freeze :mecry:


----------



## StrikerDown

Congratulations Dude!!!

Let the chips fly!

What are you going to Vegas for? 

U forget U have a new toy?


----------



## cmacclel

StrikerDown said:


> Congratulations Dude!!!
> 
> Let the chips fly!
> 
> What are you going to Vegas for?
> 
> U forget U have a new toy?


 

Hmm Shotshow?

Mac


----------



## StrikerDown

Could be, I forgot shot was next week.


----------



## darkzero

StrikerDown said:


> Congratulations Dude!!!
> 
> Let the chips fly!
> 
> What are you going to Vegas for?
> 
> U forget U have a new toy?


 
Thanks Ray!

Shot Show, what we had hoped for but it didn't work out. My buddy got a free condo for the weekend so we're taking a short vacation which I really need. There's some gun/knife show that were going to.

The only thing left to do for now is level it out. Everything's assembled & adjusted. The blank T for my QCTP was sent to Barry for milling. That's the only thing I will need & then the chips can fly but that's ok as I'm not in a rush. I have very few CPF projects left to keep my busy & the 8x14 is still running so I'm good. As soon as I finish those projects I'll definitely be playing with the new lathe non stop! 





StrikerDown said:


> Come to think of it Will Q's 1236 came with a power cord attached from the factory and it had the white wire attached to the ground bar in the machine as it did not have a green colored conductor in the cord. Will, you need to check that on your machine. If the power cord has two black or red wires they need to be connected to the red/black wires your electrician put in via the brass collored screws in the plug, its not important if red goes to red and blk to blk when they pass through the connectors. If the power cord is like Wills and only has a white and no green check to see if the white in the wiring panel is connected to the ground bar. if it is then this is the ground wire, it should be green not white. if you use this power cord the ground wire whatever it's color must be connected to the green screw in the male plug. I suggest if your power cable does not have a green ground conductor that you replace it with one that does to eliminate confusion in the future, or at a very minimum use green tape to cover the white showing on both ends of the cord.


 

With your recommendation in mind I planned on changing out the power cable on the lathe. However I didn't need to. The power cord on mine has black/red wires for hots & the ground is yellow with a green stripe which was good enough for me. The ground is also labeled "PE" along with all the other grounds in the control panel. Don't know if red & black are in the correct positions on the socket/plug but as you guys said it doesn't matter for 1ph. I just wired the plug to match the socket & was done with it.














One thing I was not aware of is the power lamp on the lathe is always lit when it's plugged in. On the machines in shop class, when the stop/off switch is pressed the power lamp turns off. On this machine the stop button just stops the spindle & there is still power to the machine. 

It's too troublesome to plug in the lathe or flip the breaker every time it gets used. I'd like to install a disconnect right above the socket. Where I can I buy a wall mounted disconnect? 

These are basically the only ones I found doing a quick search:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/110-220V-On-Off-Switch/H8238

http://www.grizzly.com/products/110-220V-Paddle-On-Off-Switch/H8243

Something like the first one is good enough or even a lever type is cool too. I have no problem buying that one from Grizzly as long as it's not junk & I won't have problems with it. I'm not looking for anything fancy right now. Any recommendations?


----------



## 65535

I'd put a DPST switch somewhere above the 4 knobbies on the front. Just drill a small hole and run the wires you need to the switch. I can send you a nice DPST swtich if you like.


----------



## StrikerDown

If you want a disconnect it should go on the wall in line above the outlet somewhere. A disconnect isn't really needed since you can simply unplug the cord to disconnect. If you just want to turn off all of the power consuming lights in the machine you can put in a switch like 65535 indicated. 

On my machine when I hit the red E Stop button all the lights go off except for the DRO which is a good thing. The DRO has it's own power sw.


----------



## precisionworks

> The blank T for my QCTP was sent to Barry for milling.


It arrived yesterday  As soon as I finish an 18" diameter pressure test fixture, which is currently clamped to the table, the Kurt vise goes back on & your parts gets dimensioned. Seems like the tolerance was +/- 1/8" 



> Where I can I buy a wall mounted disconnect?


Ace is the place ... at least around here. They sell a really nice Square D unit for about $20 - Model QO200TR







http://www.acehardwaresuperstore.co....html?osCsid=a3d1312cc47e1b2d51c7f2c579454a48


----------



## darkzero

65535 said:


> I'd put a DPST switch somewhere above the 4 knobbies on the front. Just drill a small hole and run the wires you need to the switch. I can send you a nice DPST swtich if you like.


 
Never would have thought it would be as easy/cheap to use a simple DPST switch. I would have thought I need to use a relay, they actually have them that can handle say 15-20A? Didn't think that would be safe? Don't know if I want to drill a hole on the front plate though. 




StrikerDown said:


> If you want a disconnect it should go on the wall in line above the outlet somewhere. A disconnect isn't really needed since you can simply unplug the cord to disconnect. If you just want to turn off all of the power consuming lights in the machine you can put in a switch like 65535 indicated.
> 
> On my machine when I hit the red E Stop button all the lights go off except for the DRO which is a good thing. The DRO has it's own power sw.


 
That's pretty much what I had in mind, right above the outlet so I can just reach over to access it. Since the outlet is behind the lathe I don't want to reach over & disconnect the plug when needed. A simple push of a button or flip or a switch is what I would like.

Now I'm thinking to mount the disconnect switch on the cabinet/stand.

I wish my e-stop button was like that. Right now it's does the same thing as the spindle lever, lifting the chuck guard, or depressing the foot brake, only turns the spindle off. Wonder if I can wire it like that to cut all power, sounds like it's controlling a relay right now.





precisionworks said:


> It arrived yesterday  As soon as I finish an 18" diameter pressure test fixture, which is currently clamped to the table, the Kurt vise goes back on & your parts gets dimensioned. Seems like the tolerance was +/- 1/8"
> 
> Ace is the place ... at least around here. They sell a really nice Square D unit for about $20 - Model QO200TR


 
Thanks Barry, no rush at all. 

Bigger than what I had in mind. I'm thinking of simple push buttons on off switch or maybe a toggle switch? I think the SBs have a similar control box except they have buttons for Forward, Reverse, & OFF like BPs?


----------



## precisionworks

> simple push buttons on off switch or maybe a toggle switch?


Hard to find much that's rated for 240v service that fits the description. Your best best is probably a NEMA manual motor starter:













The "light switch" version is not too pricey, anywhere from $30 to $100 for the switch plus whatever enclosure you choose. Look at eBay item 120468408736, which is a great buy.

Unless you can find the push button version on eBay, you'll need to start saving your money for it  That little Square D 2510mba2 lists for $414.

Any larger electrical supply house should have both types in stock if you can't find something on eBay.


----------



## darkzero

That second one looks like something I'd like. Defintely way out of line for that price. 

I think maybe I'll just go with your suggestion & mount another breaker box near the outlet.

I found this: http://woodworker.com/fullpres.asp?PARTNUM=923-950

It appears to be ok. Was thinking to maybe mount it to the side of the stand/cabinet for easier access? Any downsides to using a magnet switch like this?


----------



## precisionworks

Here too:

http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.100296/.f


----------



## darkzero

darkzero said:


> Blank T for the Dorian SQCTP has been sent off to Barry for machining.


 
Arrived today, Thank You Barry! Of course Barry's work was spot on which made my job less time consuming. :twothumbs

Filed & sanded for a tight fit as I don't like the T nut to move at all when loosening the tool post for repositioning but still able to slide the tool post by hand when needed. I am happy man! :wave:























My new chuck should be arriving from Toolmex any day now, probably early next week.


----------



## alexmin

Guys,

do you know where I get buy a replacement oiler(it is a bronze looking thingy about 1/4" in diam. with a ball pushed up by a spring)? for my PM1236.

One of mine oilers lost it's the only ball.


----------



## darkzero

alexmin said:


> Guys,
> 
> do you know where I get buy a replacement oiler(it is a bronze looking thingy about 1/4" in diam. with a ball pushed up by a spring)? for my PM1236.
> 
> One of mine oilers lost it's the only ball.


 
The press in ones from Mcmaster are not brass though. http://www.mcmaster.com/#1214k1/=5kzdo9


----------



## darkzero

Anyone interested in some BXA holders? I have four that I just got from CDCO, three are for turning/facing (no groove), one for boring/turning/facing (with V groove). They're unused, I don't like them & will not be using them. I will let them go for $36 shipped, I paid $50 ($37 + $13 shipping) for them.

EDIT: Never mind, going to keep them.


----------



## precisionworks

> Filed & sanded for a tight fit


Really glad that worked out, Will. As you know, there was very little extra material left, something less than the thickness of a sheet of printer paper, and it concerned me that I might have taken too much off :thinking:

There's another way to tighten up a loose fitting T-nut, one that is sometimes used on a table saw miter gage. Drill and tap a couple of holes on one vertical face of the T-nut, and install allen head set screws so they barely project above the face. It isn't hard to set them so there's the correct drag. On a miter gage, the screws are set into the side of the bar:









> replacement oiler


Gits makes them & McMaster (and others) stock them ... but the Gits oiler is nickel plated steel.

http://www.gitsmfg.com/gits-oil-hole-covers-style-gb.htm


----------



## bluwolf

alexmin said:


> Guys,
> 
> do you know where I get buy a replacement oiler(it is a bronze looking thingy about 1/4" in diam. with a ball pushed up by a spring)? for my PM1236.
> 
> One of mine oilers lost it's the only ball.


 
Alex,

Call Matt, he's supposed to be getting some in if he doesn't have them already.

Mike


----------



## CRCJeff

darkzero said:


> Anyone interested in some BXA holders? I have four that I just got from CDCO, three are for turning/facing (no groove), one for boring/turning/facing (with V groove). They're unused, I don't like them & will not be using them. I will let them go for $36 shipped, I paid $50 ($37 + $13 shipping) for them.



Will, Can I ask why you don't like them? I'm interested in the set.


----------



## StrikerDown

CRCJeff said:


> Will, Can I ask why you don't like them? I'm interested in the set.



Ditto the interest... As a backup!


----------



## alexmin

Tool holders that came with my QCTP are not that great. 
I appreciate if you guys can give me any recommendations (where to get, what brand etc.) on better quality holders.


----------



## darkzero

CRCJeff said:


> Will, Can I ask why you don't like them? I'm interested in the set.


 


StrikerDown said:


> Ditto the interest... As a backup!


 
I'm just not happy with the quality. I understand they are china holders but my AXA holders are much nicer & the BXA holders that came with the new lathe are even better except for the long *** screws. My AXA holders are also a tad longer than these BXAs. Not sure if that's the standard length for BXAs as the only other ones I have are much longer than normal but no big deal.

The adjusting collars are not consistent, not threaded straight so they are lopsided as they are turned. I never seen holders that have the dovetails coated black too, I'm used to the ones that are ground after being coated black, again no big deal.

The set screws are cup points. I don't like my tools to be dug into that much using cup point screws. I could modify & replace parts but not worth it, but what do you expect for $9-$10 holders. I'd rather just pay the $5 - $10 extra to buy ones that I like. I'm not going to try & return them as Frank at CDCO sucks to deal with when it comes to returns. Took me 3 months & 5 calls to get a $20 refund which was not worth the effort. 

If you guys still want them please let me know. If not I will put them on ebay.


----------



## darkzero

alexmin said:


> Tool holders that came with my QCTP are not that great.
> I appreciate if you guys can give me any recommendations (where to get, what brand etc.) on better quality holders.


 
If you want better quality than that, you'll have to buy American like Dorian, Aloris, Armstrong, DTM, etc.


----------



## alexmin

Another question...

I have a surface grinder. 
Will any parts of my PM1236 benefit from surface grinding?

I have relatively small magnetic chuck on my surface grinder so I can grind only parts that have footprint not bigger than 10"x5"

Thanks


----------



## precisionworks

> The adjusting collars are not consistent, not threaded straight so they are lopsided as they are turned.


Average quality holders seem OK on an average quality toolpost ... when the toolpost is the Dorian SQCTP, nothing fits as well as a Dorian or Aloris block. I was not unhappy with Chinese holders until I started using the Dorian.


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> Average quality holders seem OK on an average quality toolpost ... when the toolpost is the Dorian SQCTP, nothing fits as well as a Dorian or Aloris block. I was not unhappy with Chinese holders until I started using the Dorian.


 
blahblahblahblah.....ah what's the point, can't avoid trying not to hear you as I'm reading it.  

Man Barry, don't tell me that. I've thought about purchasing Dorian holders far too many times since I picked up the SQCTP but I really don't want to spend that kind of money on holders now or later. A very mild hobbyist like myself probably would not see any benefit in using Dorians over the China ones. 

Good thing your "encouragement" was too late for Enco's 20% sale (EDIT: I forgot ENCO doesn't carry very many Dorian products). Well there's always the next MSC sale...... 

I need to pick up a number of holders for the tooling I have now...."can't afford Dorians, can't afford Dorians". Ok I want some now.


----------



## darkzero

darkzero said:


> Anyone interested in some BXA holders? I have four that I just got from CDCO, three are for turning/facing (no groove), one for boring/turning/facing (with V groove). They're unused, I don't like them & will not be using them. I will let them go for $36 shipped, I paid $50 ($37 + $13 shipping) for them.


 
Ah never mind, I'll just keep them a make some new adjusters for them.


----------



## StrikerDown

Will,

That Dorian looks real nice. :twothumbs

I wonder if anybody ever adapts a handle to the lock down nut to make rotating the QCTP a little easier/quicker  Seems like I am always tweeking it to cut a chamfer on workpiece, maybe I should dedicate a holder and cutter with the angle I want.


----------



## darkzero

StrikerDown said:


> Will,
> 
> That Dorian looks real nice. :twothumbs
> 
> I wonder if anybody ever adapts a handle to the lock down nut to make rotating the QCTP a little easier/quicker  Seems like I am always tweeking it to cut a chamfer on workpiece, maybe I should dedicate a holder and cutter with the angle I want.


 
Thanks Ray, I'm very happy with it. 

Actually Dave (saltytri) did that to his DTM: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3144421#post3144421

Beautiful job well done too!

Looks very covenient but I'm happy using my big old Armstrong wrench so I can really crank down on it.


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> Really glad that worked out, Will. As you know, there was very little extra material left, something less than the thickness of a sheet of printer paper, and it concerned me that I might have taken too much off :thinking:


 
Barry, I couldn't have asked for better. The length & width of the blank T already matched my compound slide good enough. For the top width you milled I only needed to file off roughly 2-3 thou off & it was a perfect fit. 

I started of by lightly filing the inside surfaces of the T slot on the compound slide with a single cut mill file to remove any high spots. Bought a brand new file for this so it was nice & sharp. Then I lapped the bottom of T nut with 100 grit or so. Then using the same new file (back side of it is double cut *******) that I bought & filed the recesses on the T slot until it came close & used the single side until it fit they way I wanted. Ended up having to remove about 4 thou. If I did not remove most of the high spots inside the T slot I'm sure I would have had to remove more off the T nut. 

So as you can see it was job well done which saved me from excessive labor. :twothumbs


----------



## precisionworks

Good approach to file the slot first, I didn't even think about that :sweat:



> I'm happy using my big old Armstrong wrench so I can really crank down on it.


+1

My "toolpost wrench" is a 1/2" square drive ratchet handle with the socket that matches the Dorian nut - which is the same size used for the mill step clamp nuts. It's just to the right of the BFH with the orange handle :nana:


----------



## darkzero

Really hate to see this one go but just in case anyone here might be interested before throwing it on ebay, I'm selling my 5" Bison 6-Jaw Set-Tru chuck with adapter to fit the HF/Lathemaster 8x14. Unless someone wants to buy my entire 8x14 set up with this chuck I'll give you a great deal. Local only though for the lathe.

I got the chuck used & I purchased brand new replacement jaws for it. The jaws were manufactured last year as I had to wait 3 months for them to get made in Poland. Also includes a Bison chuck key which I purchased new & the old jaws. 

Chuck cost $1050 new & not many places carry it. MSC & Enco do not carry them so getting one with a discount applied is not likely. MSC does carry the 5" Bison D1-3, D1-4, & threaded Set-Tru adapters in case someone is interested in fitting it on a different lathe. 

PM or email if interested. CPF members always get first priority & the better price. 


https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/232366


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> Your best best is probably a NEMA manual motor starter


 

Thanks again Barry for the suggestion. I got a Square D 2510KG2 on ebay for $20. Simple yet effective for exactly what I wanted.


----------



## wquiles

New lathe looking good 

What type/brand is the chuck in the TS?


----------



## darkzero

wquiles said:


> New lathe looking good
> 
> What type/brand is the chuck in the TS?


 
Thanks Will, much thanks goes to you. :twothumbs

The lathe is equipped with Bison chucks on both ends. 

It's a Bison like Barry's except 5/8" size. I just threw a bid on it not expecting to win as I was broke that week & got very lucky, $56 new shipped.

This is the first "real" chuck I've ever played with except for the keyed Jacobs in shop class. On the 8x14 I had both 1/2" & 5/8" China keyless chucks in both standard & "CNC" versions (can't tell the difference) & the Bison is so much smoother & grips so much harder. Yesterday I snapped a HSS center drill while center drilling some Ti, it was the only thing to give way. Wonder what would have happened if I had a mishap using a carbide center drill? :thinking:









I originally was going to get a 8" Pratt Burnerd 6 jaw but I ended up changing my mind at the last minute & decided to keep with "tradition".


----------



## wquiles

Ahh, very cool. Bison chucks on both sides :twothumbs

I just installed the keyless Albretch myself last night, so I have not used it yet, but I look forward to keyless operation as well :thumbsup:


----------



## StrikerDown

darkzero said:


> I just threw a bid on it not expecting to win as I was broke that week & got very lucky, $56 new shipped.



Broke! I wonder why

I think that must be the life of a budding machinist... at least those that listen to Barry! 

Gorgeous hardware dude! :twothumbs (read; JEALOUS)


----------



## alexmin

Guys,

how do you remove the chuck on your PM1236?


----------



## Davo J

I usually undo the camlocks and give it a firm hit from behind on the top edge of the chuck with a rubber mallet while holding it with the other hand, works every time.
Davo


----------



## precisionworks

> undo the camlocks and give it a firm hit from behind on the top edge of the chuck with a rubber mallet


A "chuck catcher" is a really good lathe accessory, and easy to make if you have basic wood working skills. 







Use a hardwood like oak or walnut and make the width the same (or just a little larger) than the outside bed width. Add a skirt on each side to keep the catcher in place. It can be lifted up and placed anywhere on the bed, and the smooth wood underside will not harm the machined ways. Place it under the chuck when installing or removing, and the ways will thank you :thumbsup: Mine often sits outboard of the tail stock (photo above) & provides a good spot for hex keys or a mic, or any other small tooling.


----------



## precisionworks

> Broke! I wonder why?





Total cost in the chuck catcher (way protector) might be $2. I only buy those things that can't be easily shop built ... meaning most everything


----------



## StrikerDown

precisionworks said:


> Place it under the chuck when installing or removing, and the ways will thank you :thumbsup: Mine often sits outboard of the tail stock (photo above) & provides a good spot for hex keys or a mic, or any other small tooling.



The first time I popped the D1-4, 3 jaw off my 1440 (same as your chuck Alexmin) I had the plywood 4 jaw box top on the ways (and they were grateful!). The chuck was so STUCK I had to smack it with the large dead blow 15 or more times rotating it between smacks! I was starting to wonder if the cam locks were loose or miss marked! It finally popped loose when I least expected it and it slipped out of my grip landing on the plywood. 

I'm going to get some wood and make a tool/chuck catcher, bigger than the box top! That looks like a great idea Barry.


----------



## alexmin

Talking about STUCK. This chuck should be added as an example to every dictionary for word *STUCK*

Took me an hour(actually more but I am too embarrassed to admit it) to persuade (with knocking and a cheating bar) cam lock pins to move.
Today I'll proceed to removing the chuck.

I have two questions:

1. What is the purpose of the three hex screws + spring + pin setup?
This small pin seems to be pushed into a groove on a camlock pin. Does it help with camlock pin alignment? It does not seem to prevent movement of cam lock pins.

2. I found that one of the pins is missing on my chuck. The screw and spring are there but no pin. Does it affect anything?


----------



## StrikerDown

alexmin said:


> Talking about STUCK. This chuck should be added as an example to every dictionary for word *STUCK*
> 
> Took me an hour(actually more but I am too embarrassed to admit it) to persuade (with knocking and a cheating bar) cam lock pins to move.
> Today I'll proceed to removing the chuck.
> 
> I have two questions:
> 
> 1. What is the purpose of the three hex screws + spring + pin setup?
> This small pin seems to be pushed into a groove on a camlock pin. Does it help with camlock pin alignment? It does not seem to prevent movement of cam lock pins.
> 
> 2. I found that one of the pins is missing on my chuck. The screw and spring are there but no pin. Does it affect anything?



I'm not sure what pins and springs you are talking about? My cam lock pins screw in to the back of the chuck or back plate and are kept from rotating loose or tighter by an allen head screw. Got a pic?


----------



## Davo J

The pins get pushed by the springs onto the camlock, so you need 3. The camlock as well as having a groove has a small dimple in it so when you unlock the camlock you will hear/feel a click and that is the pin going into the dimple, then your right to take the chuck off. If you have a look down the spring hole the dimple should line up when the camlock is opened. I had trouble with mine and had to move the dimple over with a rotary burr so it lined up.

Davo


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> A "chuck catcher" is a really good lathe accessory, and easy to make if you have basic wood working skills.


 
Very nice. In shop class, almost every lathe has it's own fitted "chuck catcher".

Here's a pic I took today of one on a smaller Regal. Not as much as a custom fit like most the Le Blondes which are cut to match the contours of the ways for each lathe (I think this one originally belonged to another lathe). Definitely a necessity as most chucks are 8" & 10" as well as some even larger & heavier 4 jaws.











alexmin said:


> Talking about STUCK. This chuck should be added as an example to every dictionary for word *STUCK*
> 
> Took me an hour(actually more but I am too embarrassed to admit it) to persuade (with knocking and a cheating bar) cam lock pins to move.
> Today I'll proceed to removing the chuck.


 
I guess I was lucky? My 3 jaw was easy to remove, one firm tap with a rubber mallet & the chuck broke free. On mine there was a good amount of oil between the mating surfaces of the chuck back plate & spindle (which could also help make it feel "stuck"). 

I won't even try to unlock the cam locks with the key provided. I use a long ratchet & an extension to lock & unlock the cam locks. The cushioned handle is also a nice luxury. 












alexmin said:


> 1. What is the purpose of the three hex screws + spring + pin setup?
> This small pin seems to be pushed into a groove on a camlock pin. Does it help with camlock pin alignment? It does not seem to prevent movement of cam lock pins.
> 
> 2. I found that one of the pins is missing on my chuck. The screw and spring are there but no pin. Does it affect anything?


 

The springs are on the chuck's back plate? I've never removed the cam lock pins entirely but I don't recall seeing any springs. The hex screws only keep the cam lock pins in place, they aren't meant to tighten the cam lock pins securely. Remove the hex bolt to adjust the cam lock pin's length by screwing or unscrewing them, them reinstall the hex bolt to keep the pin in place. I had to adjust one of mine to get a nice lock up.


----------



## darkzero

On the PM1236, what are the hex bolts for that are on the spindle in between each camlock?


----------



## Davo J

They are to hold the camlocks in place. If you undo the alen head bolt you will find a spring and below that is a small rod that is pointed but has a flat on each side.
On my lathe 
https://ishop.gasweld.com.au/ishop/stock/item/580713
it has a drilled hole in the rod for the spring to sit in and if you remove the small rod the camlock can then come out.

I just went down and took mine out to give you a better idea of the setup as they say a picture is worth a thousand words. You can see in the picturewere I had to move the dimple/hole over a bit to line it up properly.

Now only to find I can't upload the pictures? Any help
Trying again for a photo




Davo


----------



## Clark

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/LathePreciionMatthews1236cradlefor4.jpg

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/LathePM4jawchuckandlathecradle.jpg

*[2 oversize images replaced by links - DM51]*
















I had one system of lathe cradles for chucks when I had an 80 pound Buck Chuck to lift and spin on a L00 thread on my Clausing 5914 lathe.

Now that stuff is replaced with the Precision Matthews PM1236, thanks to this forum, and the 4 jaw is a little heavy but not bad.

I came up with a new system for the 1236.

I still have the process:
1) Lift chuck by the cradle handle and set it on the ways.
2) Slide the cradle to the headstock.
3) Rotate the chuck in the cradle until it clocks with spindle.
4) Slide the cradle toward the headstock an chuck and spindle engage.

Notice the glass bedding on the PM1236 cradle to get axial alignment.


----------



## StrikerDown

Nifty system :thumbsup:. But now you have added to my project list


----------



## Davo J

> 3) Rotate the chuck in the cradle until it clocks with spindle.
> [unQuote]
> 
> It may be easier to put the lathe in neutral and turn the spindle to line it up. Just a thought.:thinking:
> Davo


----------



## darkzero

I got a bit tired of using a hex key for the carriage lock so like some of the larger lathes I wanted to make a lever for it. 


The old method







After a bit of looking around I found a bolt on solution. I chose a Kipp adjustable (multi position) lever. These would probably be great for mills, after they are locked/tightened you can pull the handle up to disengage it from the splines & move it into any position to keep it out of the way. As I find more applications for these I will definitely be getting more. They come in different shapes, sizes, & materials. The stainless ones are nice but are very expensive, I choose one to match my lathe the best.

All I used aside from the Kipp lever is a small spacer so the lever doesn't come in contact with the carriage. I'll probably add a spring to it to give it some resistance when not locked down.







Removed the old bolt, simply screwed in the new lever.







Here's the lever lifted up which can be moved into 20 different positions after it has been tightened down.






Positioned out of the way, probably will rarely ever get in the way on the lathe.







Overall view








Probably not a common solution but like my 8x14 I decided to change the compound bolts. On the 12x36 the original studs & bolts did not strip like the 8x14 but I got used to using hex head bolts & find it much more convenient.


M10 bolts with some heavy duty washers from Mcmasters






Used some Grade 8 bolts that I threaded the heads then cut them off & ground down to use as the nuts.






So now with the carriage lock lever the old hex key still gets use for the compound. Much more easier than using my long Matco wrench which I don't like keeping away from the set anyway.


----------



## DM51

Clark... your post #133 above is inconsiderate as it forces people to scroll sideways - not only in your post, but for all the other posts on the page. Please edit it to put a line break between each photo.

Also, some of your photos are over size. Please read Rule 3 and re-size them, or they will be removed.


----------



## precisionworks

> Kipp adjustable (multi position) lever


Nice mod ... the little details make a huge difference 

Reid Tool has dozens of styles of levers:

http://www.reidsupply.com/Results.aspx?pid=1100000


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Nice mod ... the little details make a huge difference


+1

I am still using a hex wrench on my 12x, but I am ready to move to something more user friendly


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> Nice mod ... the little details make a huge difference
> 
> Reid Tool has dozens of styles of levers:
> 
> http://www.reidsupply.com/Results.aspx?pid=1100000


 

Thanks. It really does make a great difference, couldn't be happier.

I got the idea from searching MSC's Big Book but MSC only carries a few types.

Reid Tool was also one of the Kipp suppliers I was looking at but they didn't list the exact one I wanted.

I got mine from Fixture Works. They have listed much more of the Kipp products than anyone else. I originally wanted a different one but chose this one since it wouldn't need any modifications to it & matched better.


----------



## Tekno_Cowboy

Thanks for the idea of using a lever for the lock instead of a hex bolt. Now I've got more things to buy 

I've also replaced the compound lock screws with hex cap screws (on my 8x12), but I used square nuts instead of making special nuts.

This is a little off topic, I suppose, but I've been looking at getting a PM 1127-VF myself as an upgrade to my HF 8x12. I'm wondering, other than the increased size, what made you decide on the 1236 over the 1127-VF?


----------



## darkzero

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> Thanks for the idea of using a lever for the lock instead of a hex bolt. Now I've got more things to buy
> 
> I've also replaced the compound lock screws with hex cap screws (on my 8x12), but I used square nuts instead of making special nuts.
> 
> This is a little off topic, I suppose, but I've been looking at getting a PM 1127-VF myself as an upgrade to my HF 8x12. I'm wondering, other than the increased size, what made you decide on the 1236 over the 1127-VF?


 
I think you did mention the square nuts & I looked for some but couldn't find an appropiate size. I wanted to keep the bolts metric so I didn't have to keep another wrench by the lathe. Same hex key used for the carriage lock was used for the compound screws, same case on the 12X36.

There was a high res picture of the gearbox chart on Quality Machine Tool's site for the 1127-VF (in their image directory). Although it had a quick change gearbox it wasn't as fully changeable as the 12X36 (the 12X36 requires some gear changes too). It was the combination of threads that weren't accessible by changing levers is why I changed my mind. I was tired of changing gears & I wasn't going to buy another lathe where I had to do the same thing for the thread pitch & feed rates I commonly use.

It also has a German spindle mount that is not common in the US. Matt stated he had back plates available for it but there was not one available for a Set Tru & I did not want to have one made. I didn't want to deal with having to get an adapter made everytime I wanted to add another chuck. Alfter playing with American Spindle Nose & Camlock mounts I knew that's what I wanted rather than having to unbolt the chuck.

Those were the main two things that changed my mind. BXA wouldn't fit on it which was no big deal but with BXA now there's a bit more options for tooling available without having to modify holders & tools. Quick release tailstock was a plus, another wrench not needed. And the foot brake is also a nice feature which I'm glad I have now. There are also many variations of the 12X36 so parts & accessories should never be an issue. If I'm going to spend that much on a lathe I might as well get something that I would be happy with.


----------



## Tekno_Cowboy

I've been debating between saving up for the 12x36, or getting the 11x27 and saving up for a bigger lathe.

The 11x27 should be big enough for what I've been doing, and I have access to a sheldon at work that's *much* bigger if I have need of something bigger while I save up for something in the 14-16" swing range.

On the other hand, for the same money I suppose I might be able to find a used larger lathe in good condition. A very nice clausing just sold for $2200 at an estate sale not far from here. 

Thanks for letting me know what made you change your mind, it will really help me with my decision.


----------



## precisionworks

> for the same money I suppose I might be able to find a used larger lathe in good condition


A heavily built 14" can be a decent choice, especially if it has a decent low speed (around 50 rpm) and a good top speed (around 2000 rpm). You also get a head stock bore big enough to swallow a D size Mag with room to spare. 

The big machine is a royal PITA to horse into the shop, and I wouldn't want to do that again - ever. Wait & get the biggest one that will fit into your shop.


----------



## Tekno_Cowboy

precisionworks said:


> The big machine is a royal PITA to horse into the shop, and I wouldn't want to do that again - ever. Wait & get the biggest one that will fit into your shop.



This brings to mind another big point that I didn't think of earlier. My shop is in my basement, and the biggest lathe I can put down there, even in pieces, is probably a 12x36, due to the weight and not-so-strong stairs. I moved a new 400lb appliance down there about 6 months ago, and it really got the stairs creaking, so I'd rather not push it too much.

What I'll probably do is get the PM 1127-VF (or something very similar) as it's a quite an upgrade over my 8x12, and it requires no improvements to my current work area to use.. As long as it can switch between turning and 20tpi threading without changing any belts or gears manually, it would hold me over for quite a while.

After I get my ground level workshop finished(looking like about 3-5 years down the road at my current pace) I can upgrade to a much larger lathe for the long term, maybe even a CNC machine, if I can justify the cost.

Are there some other good lathes in the $2000 range that would be worth looking at?


----------



## alexmin

darkzero said:


> I got mine from Fixture Works. They have listed much more of the Kipp products than anyone else.



What is the part number?

Thanks,
Alex


----------



## darkzero

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> This brings to mind another big point that I didn't think of earlier. My shop is in my basement, and the biggest lathe I can put down there, even in pieces, is probably a 12x36, due to the weight and not-so-strong stairs. I moved a new 400lb appliance down there about 6 months ago, and it really got the stairs creaking, so I'd rather not push it too much.
> 
> What I'll probably do is get the PM 1127-VF (or something very similar) as it's a quite an upgrade over my 8x12, and it requires no improvements to my current work area to use.. As long as it can switch between turning and 20tpi threading without changing any belts or gears manually, it would hold me over for quite a while.
> 
> After I get my ground level workshop finished(looking like about 3-5 years down the road at my current pace) I can upgrade to a much larger lathe for the long term, maybe even a CNC machine, if I can justify the cost.
> 
> Are there some other good lathes in the $2000 range that would be worth looking at?


 
Into basement, well in that case a 12x36 may be out of the question. It's a 1200lb lathe & even removing components to bring down the weight you may still have a hard time if even possible. I know I wouldn't try. I wouldn't dare try to move this lathe with man power, I used an engine hoist.

For that price new, I think the 1127-VF would still be the best value. I think that's why most people decide to go with Precision Matthews. I did a lot of searching before I made my purchase & nothing beats the value you get for your money for a new lathe & Matt's service is above excellent. I've heard about his great service & I also got it. never had that great of service from any vendor for anything.





alexmin said:


> What is the part number?
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex


 

I used 06430-3103X55 but you may want to check your measurements on your lathe & compare to the part as there may be variances between our lathes even though they are the same model. My lathe has quite of few differences from Will's (wquiles).


----------



## Tekno_Cowboy

After a call to Matt, I found out that, while I'd be getting a big upgrade going to the 1127-VF, it doesn't have quite as good a gearbox as I thought. The one feature I absolutely require on any new lathe I buy will be the ability to change from turning to threading without manually changing gears, and that's just not possible with the 1127-VF. 

After careful consideration, I think I should be able to get the 12x36 into the basement, though I'll pretty much have to completely tear it apart to do it. Even then the base will be pretty heavy, so I plan to use a winch and skids to get it down the stairs. (the stairs line up straight with the door to the garage)

I don't suppose anyone has a breakout diagram of the PM 12x36 that could give me an idea of what could or couldn't be removed?


----------



## Davo J

Hi,
The link below might be helpful, we recomended to him not to take the headstock off, which I also recomend it to you.
http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=84377
Dave


----------



## 65535

It's tempting to rip the headstock off, the good solid cast iron ones weigh in at well over #100. but getting it realigned would be a nightmare.


----------



## Tekno_Cowboy

Davo J said:


> Hi,
> The link below might be helpful, we recomended to him not to take the headstock off, which I also recomend it to you.
> http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=84377
> Dave





65535 said:


> It's tempting to rip the headstock off, the good solid cast iron ones weigh in at well over #100. but getting it realigned would be a nightmare.



Thanks for the advice! I got the same from Matt 

I should be able to get it down using a similar method to the ones in the link. I'm going to have plenty of time to plan for it, and it should go smoothly.

I've also noticed that just about everyone that has one recommends a DRO, and those who don't have one want one, so I'll have to save a bit extra for that. :devil:


----------



## precisionworks

> but getting it realigned would be a nightmare.


Probably not 

Once the lathe is where it's going to stay, precision level the bed at both ends so that they are within one bubble graduation on a 12" master level (.0005" graduations). Mount a round bar in the chuck, something roughly 2" diameter & easy to cut (1144 or 12L14 are great for this) - 6" needs to project past the chuck jaws, so the bar needs to be at least 8" overall. Don't support the far end of the bar in any way.

Take a clean up cut or two with what ever insert you like, then switch to a sharp, small radius, positive insert and take a skim cut no deeper than .010". Use the slowest feed available on your machine, something around .005" IPR. Mic the chuck end & mic the far end - if the readings are identical the head stock is parallel to the bed. 

If the readings differ, set up a dial test indicator on the far end of the bar, loosen the head stock clamping bolts, and set the far end of the bar over .001". Take another .010" deep cut over the 6" bar & mic both ends. Continue setting over the head stock until the bar shows equal readings at both ends.

Factories have all sorts of fancy equipment for this, but even the factory uses the 6" bar test to validate head stock parallelism. It isn't the fastest procedure in the world, but one time is all it takes - unless you pull the head stock again 

Before pulling the head stock, scribe a witness mark that is easily found later. That will at least get the procedure started and get the adjustment in the ball park.


----------



## Davo J

Lot's of happy customers with these cheap Sino read outs. One of my DRO's is a Sino and works fine.
2 axis
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/SINO-2-axis-...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33569952c4
3 axis
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220496216879&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Dave


----------



## wquiles

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> I've also noticed that just about everyone that has one recommends a DRO, and those who don't have one want one, so I'll have to save a bit extra for that. :devil:



I simply could not, would not, ever use a lathe again without a DRO. I don't think I could even remember how to read/adjust the dials anymore - I would be completely lost


----------



## wquiles

Davo J said:


> Lot's of happy customers with these cheap Sino read outs. One of my DRO's is a Sino and works fine.
> 2 axis
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/SINO-2-axis-...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33569952c4
> 3 axis
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220496216879&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
> Dave



+1

My PM1236 lathe I ordered with the 2-axis SINO DRO and glass scales and it has been excellent so far after a year and 1/2 of above-average use for a hobby machine. I already bought, but I have not installed the 3-axis SINO DRO for my milling machine (8x30 Enco knee mill), but I would expect it to also be as nice/reliable, and gadget_lover (Daniel) has the same mill/SINO DRO and he is very happy with his setup.


----------



## darkzero

wquiles said:


> I simply could not, would not, ever use a lathe again without a DRO. I don't think I could even remember how to read/adjust the dials anymore - I would be completely lost


 
tsk tsk :tsk: 

A machinist should never become to this & should be able to hold a tolerance without a DRO. What were you to do if you had to run another machine?

In shop class the BPs have Mitu DROs & none of the lathes have DROs. I never use the DROs so I can get the experience of jumping on any different brand machine, even with all the crazy backlash I can still turn out a decent part.

I'm just bitching cause I don't have my DRO yet, still saving up for the one I've got my eye on. I'm sure I may forget how to use dials too one day.


----------



## 65535

I think you're right on tho Will, in any case a lot of the time with backlash and all that fun stuff taking light passes (milling or turning) and checking the part with a mic is a skill that need not be lost in the machinists world. God knows CNC equipment has been doing will eliminating a lot of machinists.


----------



## Tom Anderson

darkzero said:


> I'm just bitching cause I don't have my DRO yet, still saving up for the one I've got my eye on. I'm sure I may forget how to use dials too one day.



I thought you were soon going to say you also use a sundial on your wrist!


----------



## darkzero

Tom Anderson said:


> I thought you were soon going to say you also use a sundial on your wrist!


 


Only digital I wear is a Xlander military but only on trips to Pismo, a TSAR is what I _always _wear. But... I was going to say if there's a TA Signature Series Ti Wrist Sundial with tritium markers then I'll take one! But I guess it still wouldn't work work at night. :laughing:


----------



## Tom Anderson

Yeah, you'd need a moon dial for that! 

Seriously, I don't know what I'd do without digital electronic gages. My eyes are getting too old to read vernier scales.


----------



## wquiles

Tom Anderson said:


> My eyes are getting too old to read vernier scales.


I am getting there myself Tom. Already need bifocals, and I can't read the vernier scale on my Starrett unless under the round/magnifying light on my bench


----------



## darkzero

Tom Anderson said:


> Yeah, you'd need a moon dial for that!
> 
> Seriously, I don't know what I'd do without digital electronic gages. My eyes are getting too old to read vernier scales.


 
:laughing:

I hear ya, I'm not getting old yet but I can relate. My Mitu height gage is a 50 div vernier scale & I'm getting very tired of it. Even though it has a built in magnifier it's becoming annoying to use as it slows me down. I know I would probably never need to worry about accuracy but it's so much quicker to read a dial or digital. I'm thinking about upgrading.


----------



## Tom Anderson

darkzero said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I hear ya, I'm not getting old yet but I can relate. My Mitu height gage is a 50 div vernier scale & I'm getting very tired of it. Even though it has a built in magnifier it's becoming annoying to use as it slows me down. I know I would probably never need to worry about accuracy but it's so much quicker to read a dial or digital. I'm thinking about upgrading.



The time it takes me to decide which two marks line up with each other best is much longer than the time it takes me to reach for a bigger hammer!


----------



## StrikerDown

Tom Anderson said:


> The time it takes me to decide which two marks line up with each other best is much longer than the time it takes me to reach for a bigger hammer!



DITTO, Except for me I am trying to decide between half a dozen lines!

Gotta love digital for the old eye dilemma. Large display digital that is!


----------



## precisionworks

> My eyes are getting too old to read vernier scales... I can't read the vernier scale on my Starrett unless under the round/magnifying light on my bench... it's becoming annoying to use as it slows me down... Gotta love digital for the old eye dilemma...



Not to worry my friends, I've already called








My eyes are almost certainly older than most on this board & the Starrett 123 causes me no problem ... BUT:

The scales on mine are unscratched & the lines are clear & sharp

Light in the machine room is bright enough that some of my friends put their sun glasses on when they come in

An OptiVisor hangs next to the verniers & gets used quite a bit - even with new Rx safety glasses.

Try those suggestions & see if they help. If not, box up all those non digital instruments & ship them here (prepaid of course)


----------



## StrikerDown

If the lighting is bright enough to take off the shirt for that summer glow then it is time for better optics. The optivisor is a big plus! Except that it leaves tan lines!

Edit:

It may be hell getting old but beats the hell out of the alternative.


----------



## wquiles

darkzero said:


> Thanks. It really does make a great difference, couldn't be happier.
> 
> I got the idea from searching MSC's Big Book but MSC only carries a few types.
> 
> Reid Tool was also one of the Kipp suppliers I was looking at but they didn't list the exact one I wanted.
> 
> I got mine from Fixture Works. They have listed much more of the Kipp products than anyone else. I originally wanted a different one but chose this one since it wouldn't need any modifications to it & matched better.



I just got and installed a similar carriage lock lever on my own lathe - thanks much Will :wave:


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Not to worry my friends, I've already called
> 
> (snip)
> 
> My eyes are almost certainly older than most on this board & the Starrett 123 causes me no problem ... BUT:
> 
> The scales on mine are unscratched & the lines are clear & sharp
> 
> Light in the machine room is bright enough that some of my friends put their sun glasses on when they come in
> 
> An OptiVisor hangs next to the verniers & gets used quite a bit - even with new Rx safety glasses.
> 
> Try those suggestions & see if they help. If not, box up all those non digital instruments & ship them here (prepaid of course)



I use on my bench two of the circular fluorescent lights with a built in Magnifier:






It makes it easier to read the 50-div vernier Starrett caliper:


----------



## precisionworks

> circular fluorescent lights with a built in Magnifier


For tiny work like lining up the vernier scales, those don't have enough magnification for my eyes. Can't remember which OptiVisor lens plate I use but it seems like a #5 (2.5 magnification). The vernier almost touches my nose and field of view is small, but it's *easy *to pick out the one line that lines up.


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> The scales on mine are unscratched & the lines are clear & sharp
> 
> Light in the machine room is bright enough that some of my friends put their sun glasses on when they come in
> 
> An OptiVisor hangs next to the verniers & gets used quite a bit - even with new Rx safety glasses.


 

I guess that's one of the issues I have. The lighting in my garage is not so great, well lets just say it's an issue!  My small surface plate resides on the bench that my 8x14 is sitting on it. It's pretty cramped. The bench has a back flourescent light but because of 80% of the space the 8x14 is taking up it's getting annoying. 

Really need to get rid of it but never looked for a buyer for the 8x14 so it's going to be given away. Sorry folks but this one is going to be given to my other younger brother. After all, he's the one that brought me to this hell hole, err I mean lovecpf, money pit. What better way to return the favor of profounding my addiction here than to give him a lathe which hopefully leads him into the same black whole as I am now with all this making a mess, stuck in clothes & teeth, turning metal stuff. Hope the ******* gets sucked in too....:devil:

Ok, enough ranting, my Mitu has a magnifier:








Not as great as an "OptiVisor" (a guy in shop class swears by these) or a lighted desk magnifier like Will's (shoot I don't even use mine at work) but without the magnifier built in the gage I would be hating life. Still I would rather have something quicker to read & spend more time standing on the Wearwell mat in front of the lathe rather than the bare hard concrete in front of the surface plate. 

Too much talk of "bi focals" in this thread, man you guys must be old! :nana: :wave:


----------



## KC2IXE

Bifocals, and LOTS of light (stops down your iris - increasing DOF - just like a camera lens - at least that what my eye MD says) become a fact of life at a certain point

I used to build SERIOUS plastic models (like for $$) and NEVER needed a magnifier. I wish it was still that way


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## darkzero

KC2IXE said:


> I used to build SERIOUS plastic models (like for $$) and NEVER needed a magnifier.


 
Cool! Got any pics still?


----------



## KC2IXE

Of the stuff I built for $$? Nope - the pics were all on photo cd (remember those?) and they were stolen, along with the best 2 non client models I ever built

My "eh" stuff (stuff for me) is on the plastic model page of my web site - www.thegallos.com


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## darkzero

My new direct mount 4 jaw chuck by Fuerda to replace the old one.


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## darkzero

My "new" dog plate after being cleaned up.


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## precisionworks

That came out looking nice


----------



## darkzero

Thanks Barry. Now to adopt me a few dogs.


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## darkzero

So I got one of these....I'm pretty happy with it & amazed how good it works.


----------



## metalbutcher

How do you like the Fuerda chuck? I'm looking for an independent 4-jaw chuck to replace the one that came with my lathe and the Fuerda is one of the ones I'm considering.

Thanks,
Ed


----------



## precisionworks

The Exair Cold Air Gun ... just like the one I use 

Mine runs on both the mill (where it cools the tool & blows hardened chips away to avoid recutting) and on the surface grinder. Easy enough to move with the magnet mount. If you haven't also done so, a small regulator is a great addition. My Cold Air Gun usually runs at 40-50 psi, which produces adequate cooling & air flow without running the compressor all the time.

http://www.exair.com/en-US/Primary%20Navigation/Products/Cold%20Gun%20Aircoolant%20Systems/Pages/Cold%20Gun%20Aircoolant%20Systems.aspx


----------



## darkzero

I'm very happy with it, especially for the price. I've seen Fuerda chucks before at a show. I was surprised at how nice they are for an Asian import. I wanted to replace the 4 jaw that came with the lathe & when I saw this one I went for it.

Never thought I would buy a China chuck again but I would buy Fuerda again. Not nearly as nice as a high quality chuck but decent if your trying to save a buck.


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> The Exair Cold Air Gun ... just like the one I use
> 
> Mine runs on both the mill (where it cools the tool & blows hardened chips away to avoid recutting) and on the surface grinder. Easy enough to move with the magnet mount. If you haven't also done so, a small regulator is a great addition. My Cold Air Gun usually runs at 40-50 psi, which produces adequate cooling & air flow without running the compressor all the time.
> 
> http://www.exair.com/en-US/Primary%20Navigation/Products/Cold%20Gun%20Aircoolant%20Systems/Pages/Cold%20Gun%20Aircoolant%20Systems.aspx


 
Thanks for the tip Barry, that will be very helpful. I don't have a shop size compressor so air flow/storage is an issue. Running the Exair wide open is unncessary for me & not possible continuosly. 

If you notice in the pic I put a ball valve at the gun for control. In addition I also got a spare tank piggy backed off my compressor that sits behind the lathe that the Exair is connected to. With the two tanks I now have 40 gallons which should hold me over for now. I have a regulator on that spare tank & have it set to 80 psi but I never fully open the ball valve on at the gun in use. I'll try 40-50psi on the regulator. :thumbsup:

It also originally had 1/2 Loc-Line, I went down to 1/4 which also made a noticeable difference for me.


----------



## metalbutcher

darkzero said:


> Not nearly as nice as a high quality chuck but decent if your trying to save a buck.


It's got to better than the one that came with my lathe. 

Ed


----------



## darkzero

metalbutcher said:


> It's got to better than the one that came with my lathe.
> 
> Ed



That's for sure, exactly why I got this one to replace my old one. Sold the old one on ebay which made up 1/3 the cost for the Fuerda so it was well worth it.

More places are starting to carry them now. I purchased mine from Ajax & it was drop shipped directly from Global Tooling Solutions which is the US distributor. One thing is they get carried away with all the grease they pack into it. It was a mess cleaning all that grease off the pinions & jaws.


----------



## metalbutcher

Here's a few places that carry them.

http://www.tools4cheap.net/fuerda.php
http://tool.wttool.com/tools/Fuerda
http://brassandtool.com/Fuerda.html

Ed


----------



## precisionworks

> I purchased mine from Ajax


Great place to buy. If you phone, ask for Rocky & tell him you need a deal ... that worked for me on both Dorian tool post sets & the Bison Set-Tru chuck. They could retire on the money I've sent them


----------



## darkzero

When I made my Radius Turning Attachment I got extra material, time to use it.



> Cut off the base plate & save the rest for another project.


 

For a while I have not been happy with the Mason mounts. Not the mounts' fault, my lathe is just not heavy enough. If I rocked the lathe pushing on the headstock, I can easily get the lathe starting to rock back & forth. That's not good! So I decided to make some solid mounts.


Here's how it sat before, overkill with 8 Mason mounts.






The materials. 5/8" threaded rod. My Mason mounts are 1/2"






Made four mounts with threads.






To make things easier & keep costs down, I threaded all the way through. To prevent the studs from threading past the bottom, I deformed the edge of the thread to create a "stop".






The finished mounts.






Installed. I'm still using four of the Mason mounts on the outside to help keep the lathe in place. With just the solid mounts, I can move the lathe if I give it a good push.






After I got it all leveled, I adjusted each Mason mount 1-2 thou.







The solid mounts made a huge difference, well worth it, & the lathe has a whole different feel to it now.


----------



## precisionworks

Nice job ... I never would have though to use the mag base & indicator to adjust the mounts. Much better than trying to "feel" the amount of contact.


----------



## wquiles

darkzero said:


> For a while I have not been happy with the Mason mounts. Not the mounts' fault, my lathe is just not heavy enough. If I rocked the lathe pushing on the headstock, I can easily get the lathe starting to rock back & forth. That's not good!



Yup, same thing I have noticed. The base of our late is not that stiff/solid either.

My current "path" is to bolt the lathe to the floor, but I also want to increase the stiffness/weight of the two steel bases (filling with concrete is my current plan), along with some steel arms/braces to help the bases be more of a single unit - every little thing will help make the whole setup more stiff/solid. I "still" want to convert my lathe to 5HP with a VFD, but I don't want to do the conversion until I can get the lathe to trully be more "solid" 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> My current "path" is to bolt the lathe to the floor,


In larger factories, a millwright does exactly that ... then uses the levelers to provide opposing force to the bolts. Once bolted to the floor & leveled, the machine will act like it weighs 10,000# 



> The base of our late is not that stiff/solid either.


The base is appropriate for the width of the lathe bed and the weight of the headstock. Getting a "stiff/solid" machine means you'll want to look for something over 3000#, where the entire base is cast iron. Most good 16x40 machines weigh 3500# (or more), run a 7.5 hp motor, have a bed that's 13"-15" wide, and have a headstock bore over 3" (and a #5 Morse Taper in the tailstock). That would be a nice step up from the 12" lathe.


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> Nice job ... I never would have though to use the mag base & indicator to adjust the mounts. Much better than trying to "feel" the amount of contact.


 
Thanks Barry. I remember the first few times when I leveled the lathe, drove me crazy trying to get it level adjusting 8 mounts. Leveling with just the inside four & using an indicator for the outside ones make it much more easier. And if your careful, once adjusting the outer ones with an indicator, it doesn't throw off the leveling at all.




wquiles said:


> Yup, same thing I have noticed. The base of our late is not that stiff/solid either.
> 
> My current "path" is to bolt the lathe to the floor, but I also want to increase the stiffness/weight of the two steel bases (filling with concrete is my current plan), along with some steel arms/braces to help the bases be more of a single unit - every little thing will help make the whole setup more stiff/solid. I "still" want to convert my lathe to 5HP with a VFD, but I don't want to do the conversion until I can get the lathe to trully be more "solid"
> 
> Will


 

Sounds like a cool project. Would love to see you post if you do it. Seen some guys using a epoxy mixture to add weight.

I agree, our bases may not be that stiff & heavy but I never thought of it to be an issue. For the size & weight of the lathe, I think it's rigid enough. Our lathes are still considered "bench lathes". Many people do just that, run these 12x36 lathes on their own benches. If it weren't for the spindle brake assy, I probably would have done the same using a nice heavy duty bench with much more storage beneath it.

The thing I dislike about our bases is their weight which makes the lathe top heavy. I wish it had a wider footprint, which could be taken care of. Just widening the footprint alone should make a world of a difference. I would love to bolt my lathe down (after all, I'm in earthquake country) which would take care of that issue. But that may not be an option for me at this location. I'm hoping I can find (or someone recommend) a different solution, maybe by adding a brace to the wall (lower portion is concrete) behind it.

Sure a heavy cast iron base like 14x40+ lathes have would be nice but I don't think it's really necessary for the 12x36. If it had a longer bed length, heavier headstock, & massive tailstock then yes. I wish I had a nice heavy tailstock.

I don't find myself turning off center weighted pieces much but the times I did, I wish it was bolted down. Just had to go slow & live with the result.


----------



## precisionworks

> The thing I dislike about our bases is their weight which makes the lathe top heavy.


My 14x40 with solid cast iron base _is still top heavy._ No way around that on any lathe I've ever seen, it's the nature of a metal turning lathe. If you look at the lifting holes on my lathe, their location is just below the chip tray - as high as possible without getting into the bed itself. Lift below that level & watch out. Even 1" pipe rollers make me nervous when moving a lathe around the shop.


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> My 14x40 with solid cast iron base _is still top heavy._ No way around that on any lathe I've ever seen, it's the nature of a metal turning lathe. If you look at the lifting holes on my lathe, their location is just below the chip tray - as high as possible without getting into the bed itself. Lift below that level & watch out. Even 1" pipe rollers make me nervous when moving a lathe around the shop.


 
Never really realized or paid attention to that. I always assumed that their cast iron bases were heavy enough to keep them sturdy as well as how wide they are. Looking at some I can see what you mean.


----------



## Davo J

darkzero said:


> My "new" dog plate after being cleaned up.


 
Hi Will,
Could you tell me where you picked up the dog plate?

Dave


----------



## darkzero

Davo J said:


> Hi Will,
> Could you tell me where you picked up the dog plate?
> 
> Dave


 
It was NOS that I got for cheap on ebay. Don't remember who the seller was but it sounded like he did not have more. Not sure what it was orginally from since dog plates usually have only one open slot unlike the one have. Occasionally South Bend dog plates pop up on the bay, just need to keep an eye out for them.

You probably can also just get a chuck backplate & mill a slot out if really needed or even use a faceplate?


----------



## darkzero

After coming to my senses that I will never be able to afford the DRO I fell in love with, I fiinally joined the DRO club. Can't believe I waited so long to get one! 



Here's my install....














*Made a back plate for support since the display is mounted to the sheet metal control box.*







*Installed a cable grip/strain relief.*












*Wired the display directly to the lathe's 220v power so it turns on when I power up the lathe.*







*Scale installed on the cross slide (X axis).*







*Was a bit tricky at first drilling & tapping for these two holes. Had to use a very long extension for the drill bit & the tap since they were so close to the ways. Luckily I didn't fubar it.*







*Chip guard for the scale.*







*Mounting bracket for the bed scale (Z axis). The cross slide scale also uses one of these, forgot to take pics.*







*Bed scale mounted*.







*Mounting bracket for the bed scale.*







*Had to put the lathe partially back together to make two little spacers.*







*Chip guard.*












*The mounting arm for the display.*












Now I need to get used to forget how to use dials & set up memory for each tool offset. I'm pretty happy with it. 


It's been a good week with receiving goodies.....I'm off to play with another new tool. I don't care what anyone says about ebay. Can't beat saving $300 of the retail price & it's brand new, original battery never even installed!








Thanks for looking! :wave:


----------



## Davo J

Hi Will,
Thanks for that, I do have a few face plates, but it was just that it was a nice plate and I thought you may have bought it over there somewhere. 

Your DRO install came out really nice. I have had mine for 4-5 years now and wouldn't go back to dials.
Where did you buy the unit from? Your head unit looks like a Meister copy but the scales are Sino.
I have 2 Meister's and a Sino and have never had a problem with any of them.

Dave


----------



## MorpheusT1

Very nice stup you have there Will.

Thanks for sharing 

B


----------



## metalbutcher

I have a DRO Pros EL400 DRO that should arrive on Friday. I've been looking at the lathe in preparation for the install and putting the cross slide scale on the right side of the saddle would cover up the cross slide lock making it impossible to use. What did you guys do to overcome this problem if your cross slide lock was also on the right side of the saddle? I have another even worse problem with my lathe in that the carriage lock is about 3/8" away from the cross slide so I will need to remove the carriage lock in order to install the scale on the right side. It's looking more like I will be forced to install the scale on the left side of the saddle to overcome the problems mentioned above. Just curious as to what others have done to overcome such problems.

Thanks,
Ed


----------



## darkzero

Thanks fellas!



Davo J said:


> Your head unit looks like a Meister copy


 
A Meister is what I was going to buy until I found out the newer one has a way too colorful display for my liking. Then I found this one from the UK which has the simple black & white like the old Meister. My display is the same p/n as the Meister but uses DB-9 connectors instead. 




metalbutcher said:


> What did you guys do to overcome this problem if your cross slide lock was also on the right side of the saddle?


 
I decided to just live without it. My cross slide lock is also on the right side. Only time I ever locked it was when threading Ti just in case but I've also threaded Ti without locking it with no issues & not even locking the compound slide either. But I like to keep my cross slide & compound slide gibs on the tight side.

I've seen someone add a bolt on the top of the compound slide to lock it by tightening onto the leadscrew close to the handle. I imagine the same could be done for the cross slide if you choose to do so.


----------



## Davo J

darkzero said:


> Thanks fellas!
> 
> 
> 
> A Meister is what I was going to buy until I found out the newer one has a way too colorful display for my liking. Then I found this one from the UK which has the simple black & white like the old Meister. My display is the same p/n as the Meister but uses DB-9 connectors instead.


 
Hi Will
I have seen those latter BOLTS and ARK ones and don't like the colours either, but if you contact him he has the other models as well.
When I bought mine 4-5 years ago I got the BC10M 3 axis for the mill which was all black, but the XPOS3 3 axis for the lathe had a bit of orange on some buttons which I didn't like. The prices have come down a lot with DRO's because I paid $2150 for the 2 readouts with 7 X 0.005mm all under 900mm scales posted. Now you can buy them for around $600 posted each.
I have a mill with a Sino that it came with and think the Meister's are a lot better as you have to go into the menu more with the Sino's and some of the buttons are strangely named.
I see all the new Meister's come with the DB-9 connectors, where mine come with 7pin round which I have been trying to chase up cheap without success.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Meister-...55?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item4cf3aac257

Dave


----------



## Davo J

metalbutcher said:


> I have a DRO Pros EL400 DRO that should arrive on Friday. I've been looking at the lathe in preparation for the install and putting the cross slide scale on the right side of the saddle would cover up the cross slide lock making it impossible to use. What did you guys do to overcome this problem if your cross slide lock was also on the right side of the saddle? I have another even worse problem with my lathe in that the carriage lock is about 3/8" away from the cross slide so I will need to remove the carriage lock in order to install the scale on the right side. It's looking more like I will be forced to install the scale on the left side of the saddle to overcome the problems mentioned above. Just curious as to what others have done to overcome such problems.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ed


 
I don't use mine, but one guys fix was to put it onto the other side. I don't like this idea as it pulls the cross slide across but it works for him so he says.
http://www.atfreeforum.com/chesteruk/viewtopic.php?t=389&mforum=chesteruk

Here is a recent one fitted on the chuck side. I recommended to him to use a steel cover which he did for protection.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/fitting-sino-3-dro-my-al1000d-lathe-136451/

Dave

Dave


----------



## metalbutcher

Dave,

Thanks for the links. That gives me some ideas to work with.

Ed


----------



## darkzero

Davo J said:


> Hi Will
> I have seen those latter BOLTS and ARK ones and don't like the colours either, but if you contact him he has the other models as well.
> When I bought mine 4-5 years ago I got the BC10M 3 axis for the mill which was all black, but the XPOS3 3 axis for the lathe had a bit of orange on some buttons which I didn't like. The prices have come down a lot with DRO's because I paid $2150 for the 2 readouts with 7 X 0.005mm all under 900mm scales posted. Now you can buy them for around $600 posted each.
> I have a mill with a Sino that it came with and think the Meister's are a lot better as you have to go into the menu more with the Sino's and some of the buttons are strangely named.
> I see all the new Meister's come with the DB-9 connectors, where mine come with 7pin round which I have been trying to chase up cheap without success.
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Meister-...55?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item4cf3aac257
> 
> Dave



Thank you for that info Dave on the Meisters.

From what I understand those ARC displays are basically the same as the BC10s except they have a plastic case to keep costs down. I also have a "BC10L" which has the metal casing.


----------



## Davo J

darkzero said:


> Thank you for that info Dave on the Meisters.
> 
> From what I understand those ARC displays are basically the same as the BC10s except they have a plastic case to keep costs down. I also have a "BC10L" which has the metal casing.



Hi Will,
I think your are right about the ARK models as I can't see any difference either. He used to have the TOP10 which was plastic case and the BC10M which was the die cast case with only around $40 difference. When I bought mine he offered the BC10L 3 axis for the lathe even though it wasn't listed and I had never seen it, so he has a lot of models not listed. 

These where only new out when I bought them and I was worried about if either one broke down in the future, so I went with the XPOS even though it has a plastic case because it was a mill/lathe readout and if something happened it could be used on the mill as well, and the BC10M could be made to be used on the lathe by doubling the resolution for radius.
I have found out it wasn't necessary because after 4-5 years I have never had a problem and find they are a really great read out and I would recommend them highly.
When I first powered my BC10M up it came up on the screen as a BC11M and after inquiring about it he said it was an up dated model in the software.

The guy in the second link I posted wanted to buy a Meister, but Meister was unable to supply thin 0.001mm scales he wanted, so he went with the Sino. I have been talking to him and gave him a link to a online Meister manual, and after looking at the Meister manual he can see where the Meister functions come out in front and are easier accessed over the Sino.

When I fitted the mill DRO I put it on the front of the table which an be seen here if your interested.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/installing-dro-scale-front-table-hm50-52-a-115786/

Anyway sorry for the bit off topic. 

Like I said earlier, you have done a great job on installing that DRO and I like the way you tidied the cords and installed the cable gland into the electrical box.

Dave


----------



## darkzero

At www.meisterdro.com is where I saw that the ARC displays are plastic. No big deal but I was a afraid of hot steel chips melting onto the display. My calculator and a few other things are melted from the last time I had hot steel chips flying all over. So that's why I wanted a metal case. Luckily I don't make deep cuts like that in steel very often. 

Thanks again for the compliment. Nice work on your install too. Thank you for sharing.


----------



## Davo J

Hi,
I sent you the links you where after.
In the other pages of the shop they have the BC10L along with the BC10M and the TOP10 as well as the others.
http://www.meisterdro.com/servlet/the-Meister-Digital-Readout/Categories
His prices on that site are more than what he sells on ebay for, and where like that when I bought mine.
If anyone is after one it is better to contact him through ebay.

Dave


----------



## John Hill

darkzero said:


> ...................The thing I dislike about our bases is their weight which makes the lathe top heavy. I wish it had a wider footprint, which could be taken care of. Just widening the footprint alone should make a world of a difference.


 

This is my lathe when we moved house, you can see the wooden feet I bolted to the base to give stability. I have used it on those feet for a couple of years and they have worked quite well. I level the lathe by driving wooden wedges under the feet.




DSCN0286 by aardvark_akubra, on Flickr


----------



## precisionworks

I used 2" square tube, 1/4" wall, to run a similar pair of "extenders" under the South Bend 10-K. Only tripped over them a few times before learning they would not move


----------



## BVH

Well I took a chance that my machines' carriage casting would be the same as yours, Will and 6 weeks ago, bought the nice, stainless steel ratcheting handle for locking down the carriage. Wouldn't ya know it, they moved the clamping bolt slightly left (towards the chuck) of the oil fill plug whereas yours looks to be a little to the right or it. Now, even with the DRO chip shield off, I either have a few thousandths clearance from the edge of the slide or I'm short of room for the handle to fit. Tomorrow will tell. Between the slide and the apron is a 5/16" thick aluminum "spacer" taking up the much needed room. I know nothing about DRO slides at this point. Is the aluminum spacer, just that, a simple block of aluminum which the chip shield and the slide screw to? Could I make a thinner one if my handle will not fit? In any case, looks like I'll need to drill a relief hole in the chip shield for the ratcheting handle shank. Now that I think of it, as the machine sits now, I can not get an Allen wrench in the bolt to lock down the carriage with the chip shield in-place. Slotting the shield screw holes will give me about .170 which will give clear access to the allen bolt. 







Where did you get your DRO screen mount?


----------



## darkzero

BVH said:


> Wouldn't ya know it, they moved the clamping bolt slightly left (towards the chuck) of the oil fill plug whereas yours looks to be a little to the right or it.



Yup, it does look like that compared to mine. Here's a top view of mine.










BVH said:


> Slotting the shield screw holes will give me about .170 which will give clear access to the allen bolt.



If I'm understanding you correctly, as in slotting the chip guard mounting screws so you can move the entire guard more to the left, that may work. I installed mine so that the top of the chip guard sits flush with the top of the cross slide. So if that is what you meant & your chip guard sits flush with the cross slide, then you would have to shorten the left side of the guard to move it over to the left?

How wide does your chip guard measure?

My chip guard measures about 1-1/16" wide. From the edge of the cross slide to the center of the oil filler hole it's about 1-15/16". From the cross slide to the center of the carriage lock hole it's about 1-7/16"

I'm assuming your DRO is also Sino? When I ordered my scales I ordered the slim scale for the cross slide & the standard size scale for the bed. My Sino slim scale for the cross slide is KA-500. My standard size scale for the bed is KA-300. There is also a larger scale which is the KA-600. If you have KA-300 for the cross slide, that may be part of the reason why you have clearance issues. I assumed if I got the KA-300 that I would have this issue too.

The chip guard I have for the cross slide is KA-500-H which is what they call the Full Cover & uses vertical mounting screws (screws on top). There is also a KA-500-I which is the Semi Cover but uses horizontal mounting screws. The Full Cover is listed to be 27.8mm wide & the Semi Cover is 20.5mm wide. So that would be a difference of about .29" assuming you would be able to bolt the scale directly to the cross slide. But I have no idea where one could buy these covers.







By the looks of your lathe (the one you had) it looks more like WillQ's than it does mine (I'll explain later).

Here's a picture of WillQ's.







Your's looks like his with the carriage lock hole off to the left of the oil filler as opposed to mine that is off to the right. I'm not sure if your's is roughly in the same area as Will's and you just have the larger KA300 scale or if yours is actually further off to the left than Will's. Maybe Will might be able to take some measurements for you or check which size scale you have?




BVH said:


> Where did you get your DRO screen mount?



I basically have a Sino kit but went with a variation of a Meister lathe display. My scales & mounting hardware are from Sino. So I think my display mount should be similar to WillQ's? Is yours not the same or did not come with one?


----------



## darkzero

BVH said:


> Well I took a chance that my machines' carriage casting would be the same as yours, Will





darkzero said:


> By the looks of your lathe (the one you had) it looks more like WillQ's than it does mine.



Since you mentioned it.....

When I first received my lathe, there were quite a few variations/differences that I had noticed between mine & WillQ's. Not very many other pics on the net of other people's PM1236s but every one that I saw looked more like WillQ's rather than mine. That includes the photo's on PM's site (the machinetoolonline site) but their video shows the variance that looks more like mine. No biggie & I understand many other things (mostly overseas) will have variances from different runs. I just assumed it was just one of those "whatever parts the supplier had on hand or color of paint they had for the month" type of things.

That is until I saw yours. Yours looks more like WillQ's. Like your carriage lock hole for example, I would assume it would be best or easier for certain non critical holes to be formed in the casting although I understand many other holes are made later and/or need to be. If that's the case, why would certain holes be different from casting to casting? You would think their castings would all be similar rather than use different castings at different manufacture dates. But I have no idea so I'm sure there's some reason for it. But not just castings.

For example, my name/control plate is different. My threading dial chart is different & a couple of differences on the threading chart. My gearbox knobs are spaced farther apart. My oil drain holes & oil level sights are in slightly different locations. My control panel layout is slightly different. My spindle brake assy is different. There are even more things that I can point out. Can't help but to notice all of these type of things, people have told me I sometimes pay way too much attention to details. 

Again no big deal but I have always wondered, sure improvements if any is one reason for change, but why would a previous batch look one way, the next batch have differences, then a later batch look like an earlier batch? :thinking:

Ok I'm done.  :nana:


----------



## BVH

I have an Esson ES8A. What I didn't show in my pic unfortunately, is that between the scale and the cross slide, there is a 3/8" thick aluminum adapter/bar across the entire length of the slide/scale. The alum adapter bolts to the cross slide and the scale bolts to the adapter. Also, between the scale pickup unit and the lathe bed, is another 3/8" aluminum adapter plate to mount the pickup to the lathe bed. So in effect, both parts of the scale are shimmed out towards the tailstock a full 3/8". That is my problem. Not sure why this was done except that bolt patterns for the lathe bed/cross slide are not the same as for the scale/scale pickup. Do cross slides usually come with pre-drilled holes for scales? I'm thinking either it came already drilled and the scale did not line up, or it was drilled incorrectly and the adapter was made to compensate.











I just found this. In looking at the WEB site of a Calif company that sells these, the adapters come in the kits.

Does the cast iron cross slide drill and tap fairly easy? If so, I might attempt to remount the system which means drilling new holes in the bed where the pickup mounts too. Or heck, I may just live with the Allen screw.


----------



## darkzero

i see, no the lathes shouldnt come predrilled for dros. i also used the similar plate and mount for the scale and read head. 

im sure the easson was installed by quality machine.

maybe try contacting dropros to see if they have any other options for scale mounting or chip guards? ive never dealt with them, just remember that they carry easson. or maybe use it without the guard or make a thinner one?

yes the castings were pretty easy to drill and tap for me. drilling for the read head was a bit tricky for me since my mounting screws were pretty close to the ways. i moved the carriage all the way to the right and used extensions for the drill bit and tap.

sorry for the weird format, the new editor doesnt work correctly on my phone.


----------



## StrikerDown

Mine came pre drilled... And installed :nana:

Your display mount does look like my Sino hardware.

Great job on the install DZ.


----------



## darkzero

StrikerDown said:


> Great job on the install DZ.



Thank you very much Ray!


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## darkzero

Since I got my direct mount dog plate, I've never got to use it yet. I found a dog drive that I myself am not used to seeing & thought was interesting. It's made by Armstrong & appears to be NOS. I think I will pick up one more.


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## BVH

I finally get to see a Dog Plate in action! Thank you!


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## precisionworks

> I found a dog drive


Nice catch, Armstrong Tools is one of the long time American companies still drop forging steel parts (since 1890). Others that are often seen are Wright Tool Company, Martin Tool & Forge, J H Williams (now a Snap-On company).

I needed a short "service wrench" for the ER16 collet (to prevent over tightening). Got this Martin from McMaster & it is superbly forged.














Not everything from Armstrong is forged, like this boring baring holder turned from solid round stock:






FWIW, Armstrong started using the "strong arm" trade mark on September 1, 1897 and filed for U. S. Federal Trademark registration on October 19, 1910.



> finally get to see a Dog Plate in action!


Not many people turn between centers anymore as it's becoming a lost art. A good dead center in the headstock bore will have a run out that's at least one order of magnitude less than a Set-Tru chuck - a good chuck will adjust down to about .0003" but a dead center will indicate .00003" and often less. There isn't a chuck in the world that comes even close to that, which is why a part that goes from first op on lathe #1 to second op on lathe #2 to third op on lathe #3 is normally turned between centers. Also, if you're threading or turning a part & want to remove it to check features, this allows going back to the identical position (just don't loosen the drive dog & use the same slot in the faceplate).

Between centers turning also allows setting over the tailstock to turn a taper.


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> Nice catch, Armstrong Tools is one of the long time American companies still drop forging steel parts (since 1890). Others that are often seen are Wright Tool Company, Martin Tool & Forge, J H Williams (now a Snap-On company).
> 
> Not many people turn between centers anymore as it's becoming a lost art. A good dead center in the headstock bore will have a run out that's at least one order of magnitude less than a Set-Tru chuck - a good chuck will adjust down to about .0003" but a dead center will indicate .00003" and often less. There isn't a chuck in the world that comes even close to that, which is why a part that goes from first op on lathe #1 to second op on lathe #2 to third op on lathe #3 is normally turned between centers. Also, if you're threading or turning a part & want to remove it to check features, this allows going back to the identical position (just don't loosen the drive dog & use the same slot in the faceplate).
> 
> Between centers turning also allows setting over the tailstock to turn a taper.



My Snap-On dealer told me JH Williams was the manufacturer marketed more towards industrial use. Much of their tooling was black oxide & there are many people out there that love the "black" tooling. Also heard that made some Kobalt tools at one point. Not sure if that's all true though. 

There's a guy on ebay that sells JH Williams combo stubby wrenches for $1ea. He sells out of certain sizes often but often relists them. You can get a full set for next to nothing. But then again you can find the same wrenches listed on Alibaba for the same price but the minimum is 500pcs for each size.

Thanks for the history on Armstrong. Wow, they're been around for a long time! Do they still make lathe tooling? 

I never heard of Armstrong until I started taking the machining courses. Most of the lathes had Armstrong QCTPs & all their knurling tools were Armstrong.

When I was looking to buy a wrench for my tool post, Martin & Proto were the other ones I was looking at. Don't remember what lead me to buy the Armstrong but I'm very happy with the wrench.

How can you tell if it's forged?










precisionworks said:


> Not many people turn between centers anymore as it's becoming a lost art.



I assume it's because high precision chucks are more readily available now & at more affordable prices now? Along with sophisticated modern CNC machines where most ops if not all can be done on the same machine.

Turning between centers was the first thing I learned in shop class & most of the operations done in the lathe we were required to turn between centers or with collets. We only used the chuck to center drill & for roughing. I'm glad I learned about turning between centers, otherwise I probably would have never known about it or wanted too. It also made sense in shop class cause most the of the chucks were beat to hell & it was impossible to center a piece of round bar in them unless they were at least a few inches long. :laughing: Since lathes were shared & shop time was limited, parts couldn't always be finished in the same lathe. Turning between centers allowed us to walk into the shop & quickly set up the part even on a different lathe & continue on. Much like the different lathes setup for different ops in manufacturing a part like you mentioned.

I can see why turning between centers may not make much sense these days & especially for hobby machinists but it does have it's advantages that I like very much. I too would probably not turn between centers very much at all but it's nice to be able to when needed.


----------



## tino_ale

Hi guys,

I have a question about setting up the lathe and leveling it.

The lathe is supported by two pillars, each pillar being supported by four leveling feet.
So how do you make sure each pillar is evenly supported by the four leveling screws ?

While leveling the lathe, how do you know if you should touch-up the inner or the outer adjusting feet ?

If the feet are really unevenly supported, one foot will stop touching the ground. But before that happens, probably the pillar can allow some twisting and I'm juste guessing while doing so not providing the most firm and rigid support the the lathe.


----------



## wquiles

tino_ale said:


> While leveling the lathe, how do you know if you should touch-up the inner or the outer adjusting feet ?



You will "feel" the pressure being fairly even (we are talking about 1200+ pounds), so you "will" know if you have adjusting feet that are not doing anything. As to how to fine tweak them to get level? You know by alternating the machinist level to sit along the bed and also across the bed, at two points: near the headstock and the end of the bed (where the tailstock usually rests while it is not being used. Keep in mind that eliminating (minimizing) twist is the more critical thing - the lathe does not have to sit perfectly level to work accurately, as long as the twist is minimized.

And after you do all that, you probably have to re-do it after a few weeks/months as the mounts settle/compress with time. It is a pain in the but to do, but necessary for accurate work 

Will


----------



## Maglin

I ended up only using 4 leveling feet on the inboard side of the stands. I welded up a frame for both stands to put my feet on the outside of the stands. Worked out great. I was able to get to within .0002" of level/twist and cut evenly. Taking the twist out ended up shifting the gap a little and I had to pull the pins and move the gap about .001" to get the vee way to line up. Also you don't have to use a .0002"/10" level either. I started out with a Starret #98 machinist level and and then went to my china precision level and it was good enough. (to say china and precision in the same sentence is just wrong) I did try to get that last .0002" out but their is to much twist and I'm pulling the other side's foot of the floor. I have to shim the lathe base to get any more out of it.


----------



## darkzero

Many later lathes use only 4 or 6 holes for mounting. The PM1236 has 8. Drove me crazy the first time I tried to level it using all 8 feet. Later on I replaced the inner four with solid mounts. Post 187

I use the solid mounts for leveling & the rubber feet on the outside to prevent the lathe from moving. Much easier to level & no need to readjust since it does not need to "settle". Since then I've replaced the outer feet with larger diameter mounts.


----------



## precisionworks

> you don't have to use a .0002"/10" level either.


Not to split hairs but the normal reference standard is .0005"/12" & is the calibration used for the Starrett 199 & other Master Precision Levels.


----------



## tino_ale

Interesting approach in your post 187, leveling the lathe with the four inner feet only then using the outer feet only to touch and lift as little as one thou. Do you think one thou is enough to actually provide support or is the lathe basically resting on four feet only ?

About bed twist, I have one more question.
I understand a twist-less bed is important to avoid unwanted tapper when machining a long part. On the other hand a bed that has ZERO twist while resting cannot have zero twist while machining a part. It's against nature. While machining there are twisting forces applied to the bed, so no matter how rigid it is, some minor twist must occur (I guess ?).
For this reason I was wondering if a "twist offset" approach could be used ? Meaning the bed would be lightly twisted while resting, in order to come right in alignment (or as close as it gets) while machining.

Just a thought but that might not actually be practical or realistic ?


----------



## wquiles

tino_ale said:


> On the other hand a bed that has ZERO twist while resting cannot have zero twist while machining a part. It's against nature. While machining there are twisting forces applied to the bed, so no matter how rigid it is, some minor twist must occur (I guess ?).



Absolutely. You will always have some amount of deflection, proportional to the forces involved. That is inevitable, but as the machine gets bigger and heavier, with better materials, a single piece base made of cast iron, better bearings, higher tolerances, etc., the amount of flex becomes smaller. This is precisely why I went away from the 7x lathe I started with to the heavier/sturdier 8x lathe, and then quickly to my current 12x "class" machine - because I was after a more rigid/firm platform. All of this still does not negate starting with a balanced and twist-less bed - that still has to be the starting point, regardless of the machine being used.

In fact, after a couple of years with the 12x, as I get more experienced, now I feel the 12x is not adequate - I would like to have a 3000+ pound lathe instead, a heavy 13 or 14 class lathe. Since I don't have the money for such a machine, I have been thinking about ways to make my 12x stiffer - I have mentioned before ideas about making steel beams to interconnect the two bases, filling the two bases with concrete, bolting the bases to the ground, etc.. - all of these things improve the stiffness of the machine, and are cheaper than a heavy 13/14 machine 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

*Re: Seriously...My New Lathe...PM 1127-VF - NOT ANYMORE...*



> You will always have some amount of deflection, proportional to the forces involved. That is inevitable,


Actually it is not 

Take a look at this recent article from MMS about a machine tool that develops stiffness rated at infinity. Made to machine titanium, no surprise there.

http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/a-model-machine-for-titanium


----------



## wquiles

*Re: Seriously...My New Lathe...PM 1127-VF - NOT ANYMORE...*



precisionworks said:


> Actually it is not
> 
> Take a look at this recent article from MMS about a machine tool that develops stiffness rated at infinity. Made to machine titanium, no surprise there.



Well, OK, as long as we have $2 million dollars to develop, I stand corrected :devil:

Will


----------



## KC2IXE

wquiles said:


> ...snip...
> In fact, after a couple of years with the 12x, as I get more experienced, now I feel the 12x is not adequate...snip...



Heh - I have what is probably the heaviest duty Craftsman (read Atlas) 12" lathe (the short bed under drive cabinet base), but Atlas/Craftsman is probably one of the lightest duty lathes in it's size. I've resently been using a Southbend Heavy 10, and even nicer, a 13" or so Sheldon.

Anyway, it's brought back my dream of a heavier lathe, and I think it really IS going to happen this time. Yeah, it's limited to 11" swing, and only 18" between centers, but I really think an HLVH will follow me home sometime this year. Now how do I move a 1800 lb 11x18 lathe down the stairs


----------



## KC2IXE

Dupe as system was acting crazy


----------



## gkemper

Thinking about getting one also. Would you buy it again?

Has anything broken or worn out yet?

Thanks,
Gary


----------



## wquiles

gkemper said:


> Thinking about getting one also. Would you buy it again?
> 
> Has anything broken or worn out yet?
> 
> Thanks,
> Gary



While you get feedback from Will, also check my thread on the PM1236.

Will (the evil Will!)


----------



## darkzero

gkemper said:


> Thinking about getting one also. Would you buy it again?
> 
> Has anything broken or worn out yet?
> 
> Thanks,
> Gary



For the price, yes I would buy again (even though the price for the lathe & shipping is more now). I haven't had any issues that required me to buy a replacement part for it. Everything thing was just upgrading or adding on to it. And buying from Matt couldn't have been a better experience for me for both the lathe & mill.


----------



## gkemper

darkzero said:


> For the price, yes I would buy again (even though the price for the lathe & shipping is more now). I haven't had any issues that required me to buy a replacement part for it. Everything thing was just upgrading or adding on to it. And buying from Matt couldn't have been a better experience for me for both the lathe & mill.



Thanks. That makes me feel a lot better. I just put a down payment on one.

Where did you buy your Sino DRO? Do you remember how much is was?

Gary


----------



## darkzero

gkemper said:


> Thanks. That makes me feel a lot better. I just put a down payment on one.
> 
> Where did you buy your Sino DRO? Do you remember how much is was?
> 
> Gary



I don't have a Sino DRO & I did not get my DRO "unit" from Matt. I pieced my DRO system together, I only have Sino scales. I forget what I ended up paying in the end but it was under $500 total & I did the installation myself which is in post #196 in this thread.


Once again Matt has taken good care of me! I wasn't planning on getting a DRO for sometime for the mill but Matt gave me an unbelievable price for the 3 axis DRO that was taken of my mill. I'd be stupid to pass up on the offer so I got it. I was planning on getting something else & I still will but at least this way it will save me installation time since everything should bolt right back on & all I have to do is upgrade the display later.


----------



## darkzero

Thanks to Bob & a member of another forum for the reminder, I got me a 1μm scale for my cross slide too. 

Easson doesn't make the size I need so I got one a Sino from the guy I get my DRO stuff from in China. Better for me anyway so I won't need any additional work mounting it, simply unbolted the old scale & bolted the new one onto the mount.

Not much to see since the scale doesn't look any different but I'll post some pics anyway.


1μm on top.







Pic of the X scale mount that I missed in my DRO installation post.
















































With .0001" resolution I'm not crazy to think I can actually try to achieve that level of tolerance, especially with this lathe, but it will help make things just ever so slightly easier.


----------



## wquiles

Pretty nice Will


----------



## darkzero

Thanks Will!


----------



## BVH

I find having the .0001 cross slide scale helps me tremendously when going for those "almost press fit" parts. I find it fairly easy to end up with two parts that smoothly slide together as air pressure builds up inside and slowly escapes around the OD of the smaller part. I had to bore a few thousandths from a piece of Garolite G11 fiberglass so that a 5/8" stainless ball would fit with no slop but no resistance. I ended up being able to hold the tube vertical, finger plugging the bottom, dropping the ball in the top and having it slowly ride the air cushion down.


----------



## tino_ale

I remember one 27mm titanium head I got from Scott (TB) years ago. The fit of the reflector to the head was so tight that one had to place the reflector and then gently tap the head, watching the reflector slowly but freely sitting down to it's final location. Any attempt to actually push the reflector would stuck the part as one can't puch a part perfectly straight by hand.

Needless to say, there was no ratling or centering issue whatsoever. Premium work as always with TB.


----------



## Davo J

Nice pictures and that 0.001mm scale will make things better. 
I have fitted 4 DRO's and they all state to remove those plastic pieces as they are for set up alignment.
The scales have a piece built into the end cap to stop them over traveling.

Dave


----------



## darkzero

Interesting, none of the Sino documentation I received states anything about removing them. I'll just leave them on for now.

EDIT: Just talked to the supplier I got my Sino stuff from, he said to remove them. Guess I'll do that. Thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## Davo J

I thought they where only for shipping and alignment. It was the Meister manuals I know for sure they said to remove them, but would have to check the Sino one I have.
The only damage I could see them doing is they would rub on the aluminum housing depending on how tight the small screws are pushing them apart.
All mine are in the spare parts box, so don't throw them away as they might be needed latter if you take them off for some reason. I always use feeler gauges to do the setting, and just use the plastic to get close.

Dave


----------



## darkzero

I have a request for a Ti spear/javelin that's going to be 30" long. So now I'll finally need an outboard spider. Time for me to make one too & here's my version which will thread into the spindle.

Spindle thread is 1-5/8-16. My spindle bore is 1.535" at it's smallest point on the gear train end. so I'm able to fit 1.5" stock all the way through with no issues. YMMV as some have reported their spindle bore to be just under 1.5". The bore is larger towards the chuck side.


Started out with some 2"Ø CRS.







Used the 4 -jaw to face & center drill both ends.






I only have a pitch mic for external threads that has a 1" capacity & I haven't messed around with thread wires yet so I'll be turning between centers.






Used my custom Android app to calculate thread depth (I may have given some of you guys the PC app which has evolved to Android now with a few more calculators. Will, Barry, Ray, Dan & Bob, if you have Android devices and are interested send me a PM or email ).






Test fit, not enough depth & need to tweak the major Ø.






So back on the centers a few more times until I was happy with the fit.






Now it screws in all the way & I'm happy with the fit.






Drilled up to my largest bit on hand, 1". I've been wanting to get the larger set of S&D drills but I'm not sure if it's worth it & I wish I had one more lower spindle speed around 30 rpm. I use the cheap China S&Ds, they work fine for me even with Ti 6-4.






A Fowler electronic edge finder showed up today as I've been curious about them. At $30, cheap enough to give it a try. Have to be real careful with this solid type as the tip does not "break away". It works by contacting the metal & continuity through the mill (to think, the tip contacts the work piece, then through the chuck, super spacer, table, base/leadscrews, column, to the head, then the spindle, collet, & finally the edge finder's body, what a journey). I may try the more expensive break away ball type tip later but they have their limitations & advantages because of the ball. Just testing it here, I still just used the good ol conventional edge finders.






Used the SS to drill, tap, & chamfer four holes.





















Back to my little trusty Enco 4x6 to cut off the excess. If you haven't noticed, I made a pull out tray using a thick aluminum baking pan that's mounted to the frame. No more using a cardboard box anymore sitting under the middle tray & fine chips all over the place when using it. Keeps the middle tray much cleaner too now. Those slides for the tray was the very first thing I made on the mill.






Final boring to allow 1.25" stock to fit through comfortably.






The finished spider. Really wish I had some better steel on hand than 1018 but this should last me a while. 











Now I can continue on with the Ti javalin....






Thanks for looking!

:wave:


----------



## precisionworks

Very nice work on the spider/cathead 



> ... Ti spear/javelin that's going to be 30" long ...


Since the part is 30" long & the machine has 36" between centers why did you not turn the spear/javelin between centers? Most of the barreled actions that arrive at my shop have to be turned between centers as they will not fit through my machines spindle bore. Another plus for centers turning is that runout approaches 0.000000" (but Royal's manufacturing tolerance +/- 0.000050" TIR & that's about what I see ... half a tenth). 

Just wondering.


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> Very nice work on the spider/cathead



Thanks Barry! 




> precisionworks said:
> 
> 
> 
> why did you not turn the spear/javelin between centers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> darkzero said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I can continue on with the Ti javalin....
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Ok, so I lied.  After I made the spider & posted, I was playing with it & then realized I really didn't "need" it after all but it sure was a good excuse to make make one. 

Actually the javelin is two pieces so it made it easier to make. Still required use of the follow rest though. I didn't turn it between centers cause the entire thing is knurled. There's cases where the work piece will slip in the 6-jaw when knurling Ti where I would then use the 3-jaw but it hasn't happened often. 

I was afraid the drive dog would slip when knurling between centers. But to be honest I really didn't think of it much, I guess I could have milled a flat to prevent slippage but the forces of knurling Ti is far greater than I am comfortable putting on two centers let alone one. I've knurled aluminum between centers but never anything else.

First time I have ever knurled Ti longer than 8" or so, each piece had a 16" section of knurling. Had to use the follow rest & the lathe made so many new noises that I had never heard before. I think she was telling me that she did not like that but she was a sweetheart & pulled both of them off without incident. I sure was scared though as was standing off to the side with my foot resting on the brake. I now know every part on the lathe that can possibly make rattle noises.


----------



## darkzero

I've been wanting to make some sort of spindle work stop & I was going to make a second threaded spindle adapter for this purpose while I was making the spider. The Aloris spindle stop for the size I need is over $400. Rovi Products who are near my work offers a similar version for less than $200. Dorian also makes them but I couldn't find a price on them or anyone that sold them. If anyone is interested & has a spindle bore of 1-5/8" to just over 2", there's a seller on ebay who has a few of the Dorian sets for $160. Damn, I wish they had my size, they look nice!

Well happy birthday to me, bought myself my own birthday present.  MSC carries the Yuasa spindle stop for just over $200. Went to the local MSC outlet yesterday & ordered one. My sales guy gave me 15% off of it. Picked it up today, model SWT-105. Way better than anything I could have made & it's simple to use. The wrench is overkill long (my guess it's the same wrench used for all their sizes). I think I may make a shorter one someday.


----------



## wquiles

Nice work as always Will 




darkzero said:


> Will, Barry, Ray, Dan & Bob, if you have Android devices and are interested send me a PM or email.


I will be sending you an email shortly


----------



## darkzero

wquiles said:


> Nice work as always Will



Thanks Will!


----------



## darkzero

darkzero said:


> The wrench is overkill long (my guess it's the same wrench used for all their sizes). I think I may make a shorter one someday.




Took care of that today. I don't have a welder so using some drill rod, CRS, & a M4 SHCS, this is how I made a new handle. 
Now the wrench fits in my tool box.


----------



## precisionworks

Just remember ... it makes one heck of a noise when you leave the wrench handle in the headstock & start the machine at 1500 rpm ... don't ask me how I know :devil:


----------



## gadget_lover

precisionworks said:


> Just remember ... it makes one heck of a noise when you leave the wrench handle in the headstock & start the machine at 1500 rpm ... don't ask me how I know :devil:



You obviously need to use a spider of some sort to support the outboard end of that wrench. If you can't find the one you just made, you can always wrap about an inch of masking tape around the shaft, building it up till it's a good fit. 


Daniel


----------



## darkzero

> precisionworks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just remember ... it makes one heck of a noise when you leave the wrench handle in the headstock & start the machine at 1500 rpm ... don't ask me how I know :devil:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gadget_lover said:
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously need to use a spider of some sort to support the outboard end of that wrench. If you can't find the one you just made, you can always wrap about an inch of masking tape around the shaft, building it up till it's a good fit.
> 
> 
> Daniel
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


:laughing: 

Thanks for the tips guys, I'll try to remember that!


----------



## PEU

the backside end of the spindle its usually threaded, you could turn a brass or delrin bushing to keep that rod centered.


Pablo


----------



## darkzero

PEU said:


> the backside end of the spindle its usually threaded, you could turn a brass or delrin bushing to keep that rod centered.
> 
> 
> Pablo



Pablo, yes if you look a few posts back I utilized this spindle threads to make a spider. The wrench for the spindle work stop is not meant to stay in the spindle. The wrench is only used to tighten the spindle stop to secure it in the spindle or to loosen it & pull the workstop out of the spindle. As Barry was being funny, I think Dan's comment was a joke too, at least that's how I took it if he was not mistaken.


----------



## gadget_lover

Yes, I was joking too.

I should mention that I do have a drawbar that I threw together quickly which does have a wad of masking tape to keep it centered as I tighten the nut against the washer. It is in effect a single use spider made of tape. It does work.


Dan


----------



## darkzero

I bought a couple of ER40 plates last year, finally got around to mounting one to the lathe. Pretty happy with the way it came out. Measuring the run out on the inside taper where the collet sits the needle barely even moves at all.







































Made a handle for holding it while tightening/loosening. Also showing a 1" Lyndex ER16 extension that I scored for cheap.


----------



## darkzero

Also made me a test bar. Before using this test bar I had .0008" taper over 18" which is not bad considering the error from both the chuck & drill chuck using methods 1 & 3 here.


----------



## wquiles

darkzero said:


> Made a tommy bar for it. Also showing a 1" Lyndex ER16 extension that I scored for cheap.



That sure came out very nice indeed


----------



## darkzero

Thanks Will!


----------



## tino_ale

Hi guys,
Does anyone knows a good alternative to Mason leveling feet ? I need four for a PM1236 and find the a little costy.
Thanks!


----------



## precisionworks

Can you be more specific re: the type of levelers you need? Mason makes hundreds of leveling products.

http://www.mason-industries.com/masonind/


----------



## gt40

Awesome pics. I really like the er40 plate.


----------



## darkzero

tino_ale said:


> Hi guys,
> Does anyone knows a good alternative to Mason leveling feet ? I need four for a PM1236 and find the a little costy.
> Thanks!



There's plenty of others besides Mason, Mcmaster cariies a lot of different ones too. I only used the Masons cause that's what I saw Will, Barry, etc using here & they were always on sale at Enco. But Enco & Mcmaster do not ship overseas so not sure what's available in France. Is there MSC there? I thought I remember J&L Industrial Supply was in Europe too & was sold to MSC by Kennametal.

I'm not too sure on a lot of different brands but to name a few there's Barrymount, Royal, S&W, Sunnex. That's just what I've seen in catalogs.

EDIT: Looks like there is MSC in the UK. www.mscdirect.co.uk




gt40 said:


> Awesome pics. I really like the er40 plate.



Thanks Mark!


----------



## tino_ale

Thanks,
Actually I like the idea of leveling the lathe with the four inner feet (large aluminium disks) then "locking" it with the four outer feet in rubber this time.
I am traveling to the US in a couple weeks, to visit a friend, so I can order online and have it delivered there. But Mason rubber leveling feet cost around $20 each, a little too much IMO. I'll try MSC US then.


----------



## precisionworks

tino_ale said:


> ... Mason rubber leveling feet cost around $20 each, ...


$20 buys a leveling foot for use on a 3000 kg machine 

These look like they'll do nicely and the cost is $47.56 for four, free shipping using code 25FSHIP


----------



## tino_ale

Looks like a good deal indeed. Can you confirm the 1/2" screw will fit nicely in the hole of the PM1236 base ?
And this coupon code is for MSC ?


----------



## BVH

tino_ale said:


> Looks like a good deal indeed. Can you confirm the 1/2" screw will fit nicely in the hole of the PM1236 base ?
> And this coupon code is for MSC ?



Yes, they fit fine in mine with room to spare.


----------



## darkzero

tino_ale said:


> Looks like a good deal indeed. Can you confirm the 1/2" screw will fit nicely in the hole of the PM1236 base ?
> And this coupon code is for MSC ?



No coupon code needed, they are always on sale at Enco. That is their monthly sales flyer.

The holes on the base are 5/8".


----------



## precisionworks

darkzero said:


> No coupon code needed, ...



No coupon needed for the levelers but you have to paste or type in _*25FSHIP *_to get free shipping on any order over $25. Code changes monthly so that one is good for three more weeks.


----------



## tino_ale

Order sent, hopefully my non-US CC won't cause any issue.

For those who have a PM1236, can you tell me if I can reasonnably hope to drag the crate on my garage floor ? How many people should be pushing/pulling to make it move ? I have a concrete bump (it's not a step, it actually looks like a road bump) about 5cm high, do you think I'll be able to drag the crate over it ?

My issue is getting the lathe inside my shop (it's a small european 1-car garage), because of the concrete bump. Once it's in, I'll use an engine hoist to get the lathe on the base at it's proper place.


----------



## precisionworks

> tell me if I can reasonnably hope to drag the crate on my garage floor ?


The Terminator can do that easily enough but mere mortals may have issues. Pipe rollers are a common solution, use any type of black iron pipe around 25mm diameter & a bit wider than the crate.


----------



## StrikerDown

darkzero said:


> I bought a couple of ER40 plates last year, finally got around to mounting one to the lathe. Pretty happy with the way it came out. Measuring the run out on the inside taper where the collet sits the needle barely even moves at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Made a handle for holding it while tightening/loosening. Also showing a 1" Lyndex ER16 extension that I scored for cheap.



I bought one of these over a year ago, it arrived just before I was going to move... still haven't got the backing plate turned down yet!

You did a great job as usual, the nut even looks better now that it's mounted!

Seriously though, what nut is that?


----------



## darkzero

StrikerDown said:


> I bought one of these over a year ago, it arrived just before I was going to move... still haven't got the backing plate turned down yet!
> 
> You did a great job as usual, the nut even looks better now that it's mounted!
> 
> Seriously though, what nut is that?



Thanks Ray! Yup, I bought 2 of them last year too. Got the other one for use with the mill someday If I ever get around to it. The nuts are Lyndex bearing nuts, followed the suggestion from Barry as well as the handle. The handle is also used for the super spacer.


----------



## darkzero

tino_ale said:


> For those who have a PM1236,it was but the last can you tell me if I can reasonnably hope to drag the crate on my garage floor ?



Dragging & pushing, I doubt it. 2 dolleys might work. If you unstrap the cabinets that will be sitting on top you could probably slide the pallet out then use rollers under the crate like Barry said. The lathe comes bolted to the bottom of the crate, the crate is not secured to the pallet, at least mine wasn't. I mentioned the straps cause the whole thing might be strapped to the pallet.

Not sure when your purchased yours & which shipment it was but the last container of them were configured in metric, metric lead screws, dials, & charts. Matt is taking care of anyone who received these by sending out the conversion parts & compensation. Not sure if that might matter to you since you are not in the US (considering that other countries use metric). If it does give Matt or Nicole a call to confirm.


----------



## StrikerDown

darkzero said:


> Thanks Ray! Yup, I bought 2 of them last year too. Got the other one for use with the mill someday If I ever get around to it. The nuts are Lyndex bearing nuts, followed the suggestion from Barry as well as the handle. The handle is also used for the super spacer.



Kinda figured it was a bearing nut upgrade... been wanting to get one of those. Where did you get yours?


----------



## tino_ale

My order is very old, from last year. I actually ordered specifically a full metric machine, so no, no issue here but thanks for the heads up 

I am now looking into how to set up my lathe in my garage and realize it is no trivial matter :ironic:
I must say it's not easy to imagine how 1250 pounds behave. I know it's heavy, but how heavy that is the question.

I will have the lathe in a truck, and in the truck there should be a manual pallet truck. The truck will have a rear platform.
I can bring the truck right straight in front of my garage door.
Getting the lathe on the platform, and getting the platform near my garage will be no issue.

Only problem is getting the lathe from the truck platform to inside of my garage.

I am thinking I might use a strap puller, one end bolted to the floor inside my garage, the other end secured either to the pallet or to the lathe crate. Then try to ease the concrete bump I have at my garage door with wood sheets and slide it in.
I can also try to lower the truck platform so that the tip or the platform just touches down right at the top of the concrete bump.
I imagine it would be rather easy to slide the pallet out of the platform, right in my garage.

Ideally I would need a pallet truck but the ones with really big wheels that can roll on soft ground. Outside my garage the ground is raw, not concrete.

Anyway that will be an adventure for sure.


----------



## darkzero

StrikerDown said:


> Kinda figured it was a bearing nut upgrade... been wanting to get one of those. Where did you get yours?



Aside from the ER-16 one, I have 4 now, got one from Mark (gt40) & the other's from different vendors. For what I do I could definitely live without them but they are nice & I it's obvious that I like them. I can tell the difference when torquing 5/8" shanks & larger. I'll send you a PM.





tino_ale said:


> My order is very old, from last year. I actually ordered specifically a full metric machine, so no, no issue here but thanks for the heads up



Interesting! Perhaps it was yours. Apparently Matt ordered one in metric for a customer but instead of just one machine they sent one whole container of them.

I guess it really depends on the driver & the freight co. I hear that usually they just drop it off at the street & not their responsibility after but not usually the case. With both my lathe & mill the drivers (different freight co) set them where ever I wanted in the garage & having to come up an uneven steep but short driveway with me pushing from the rear. Cash tip for both drivers. I've heard many deliveries being the same like mine. Maybe you could set out a path or plywood just in the case the driver will deliver up to or into your garage?


----------



## tino_ale

I am discovering that metric issue, what a bummer. Not sure if that was my order though, mine is almost one year old. To be honnest I don't know when my machine was shipped and received by Matt, since Q4 2013 after I sent the full payment I'm having real issues getting any reply from Matt through e-mail (he used to reply in timely manner before that, now all my messages go unanswered). I called couple times, my order is now supposedly shipped but I'm waiting for the freight co. informations from Matt to get in touch with them.

The "funny" part is that I will have to go and pick-up my machine myselft at Paris port. Matt couldn't get me a delivery to my door, too complicated or too costy, I'm not sure. I will try to arrange that as soon as I get the freight co. contact informations. Until then I need to assume I'll have to do the job on my own.

Right now all I hope is to get the machine in perfect condition, no horror story and with no missing part. I just need to keep my head cool with that delivery.


----------



## precisionworks

tino_ale said:


> The "funny" part is that I will have to go and pick-up my machine myselft at Paris port.


If the lathe bed isn't mounted on top of the stand (the way many new machines are shipped) pick up at the port may not be too difficult. _It's critical that you inspect the crate when it's loaded onto your trailer & before you sign the paperwork releasing the shipper from liability. _Once you sign for it & leave the port the machine is yours, damaged or not. 

Please note the words _loaded onto your trailer _. If you don't own a trailer you'll want to borrow one from a friend or rent one. Get the lowest bed height available. Borrow or rent heavy duty ratchet straps to tie down the carton to the trailer bed. Don't be tempted to load the crate onto a pickup truck, that's a really risky option. 



> I need to assume I'll have to do the job on my own.


Moving heavy machinery is much like skydiving ... you probably wouldn't jump without assistance & it's better to have assistance if you have to pick up the machine at the dock. You'll certainly need help to unload at your home. Cast iron is surprisingly easy to break & a broken lathe won't do you much good. If in doubt get help. 

I've moved two lathes (one the size of yours & a larger one) and unloading at my end wasn't bad - because I borrowed a forklift & had an experienced rigger get the lathe off the trailer & into my shop. Since the forklift was taller than my overhead door he was able to barely get it inside. 

As it looked tied down to the trailer:






Lifted off the trailer & swinging:





Even with a forklift & a good rigger the unload took well over an hour. Unloading without a forklift, using pipe rollers, would have taken two or three hours.

Your machine is smaller & somewhat easier to manage but it's still easy to break the machine or get hurt badly if things go wrong. Getting just one finger stuck under a 500 kg crate is both embarrassing & painful, avoid that if you can.


----------



## tino_ale

Thanks for all the precious advise.

My car doesn't have a trailer attachment, and getting the lathe off the trailer will be problematic at home since I don't have any forklift.

If I have to do the job on my own, I'll rent a truck with a lift platform (the one on the right takes 940kg). What I need then is a pallet mover inside the truck to get the lathe off and on the platform (pretty straightforward).

Last and only step that I need to figure out is to slide the pallet from the lift platform to inside of my garage.

I feel rather confident with the moving, I just need to carefully plan each move. I must admit moving 500kg is a little intimidating though.


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> _It's critical that you inspect the crate when it's loaded onto your trailer & before you sign the paperwork releasing the shipper from liability. _Once you sign for it & leave the port the machine is yours, damaged or not.



Don't worry tino_ale, this is true but only in terms of holding the shipper(s) responsibile for the return shipment at their expense. As long as there is no major damage to the crate you should be fine. You can pop the top and/or side(s) of to inspect before signing the release. If something is damaged inside (replaceable) or by chance missing, Matt will take care of you as he always does. That is as long as you didn't cause the damage.....

The PM1236 does not come mounted on the base so it won't be top heavy. So it's much easier to move around but if you have never dealt with this much weight before it's highly recommended you take someone with experience who has along with the right equipment & proper straps. You should definitely have at least one person with you to help, don't attempt to handle it by yourself.


----------



## gadget_lover

A few thoughts come to mind...

First, I moved my mill with the help of some friends. It is about the same weight. I used a truck with a lift gate. More on that later. My friends had some experience in rigging... One was a trucker. We did manage to do it. We almost got squished.

Second, the fact that Tino is in France makes the whole question of responsibility difficult to predict. Local laws/customs prevail.

About the truck... If you go that way, make sure you try to operate the liftgate under load before you rent it. Some units (many) are very jerky in operation. Some slant away from the truck when under load. You can simulate a load with a few friends standing on the gate. A 1200 pound load may cause it to lurch as you start or stop it, and that may cause it to shift or even tumble. 

A 1250 LB load can be moved by hand, but beware of inclines. Once it is moving it's hard to stop.

Riggers are expensive here. Have you checked there? They might be reasonable.

Daniel


----------



## tino_ale

Thanks about the warning on the lift gate. I am thinking I might as well strap the whole thing together before I lower the platform, as an additionnal safety.

Once I get the contact from the transport company I will definitely seek a delivery to my door. But Matt warned me he tried and the quote was ridiculously high.

Manpower is uber expensive here. Anything that involves people's time is expensive. But I'll seek some quote nonetheless.


----------



## wquiles

The key to remember Tino is how brittle the cast iron is. Anything you can do to prevent a crack or something broken, even if expensive, will be worth a lot less than the alternative of having to order a new one.

Good luck, and please be safe


----------



## precisionworks

tino_ale said:


> Manpower is uber expensive here. Anything that involves people's time is expensive. But I'll seek some quote nonetheless.



Manpower is certainly cheaper than paying twice for a lathe


----------



## tino_ale

Guys,
Once the lathe is on the floor, is it safe to operate it as it is for a short while ?

Before I can properly set it up on it's stand I will need to machine aluminium disks to make "feet" for the center four leveling elements. The outer four will be mason rubber elements.

Obviously, the lathe won't be leveled properly on the floor, just sitting there on it's crate... Those disks are not precision pieces so I don't mind if they come out somehow tapered, but I wonder if using the lathe not properly leveled can put a permanent twist on the ways ?
Even if not used, is it a problem if the lathe stays unleveled for a while ?

Maybe that's a silly though, but better be sure than sorry, right ? So I prefer checking with the experts here beforehand.


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## precisionworks

tino_ale said:


> ... is it a problem if the lathe stays un-leveled for a while?


Just a wild guess ... there are at least an many lathes out of level (or never leveled at all) as there are those that are correctly installed. If an operator is running really terrible tooling the leveling may never be noticed. If most is work is done right at the headstock the twist isn't much of an issue. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The best short article on leveling by The Grand Old Man of Practical Machinist:

[FONT=&quot]*submitted by Forrest Addy* [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Generally it goes like this on the better lathes: 

Run the tailstock to the far end to get it out of the way.

Level across just in front of the headstock using the spindle end jacking screws. 

Place the level along the near way and then the using the tailstock end leveling crews in turn. 

Check across at the headstock and tailstock. You probably find some hump in the bed ways at this point because the change gear end of the headstock is unsupported. 

Lay the level on the near (operator side) way and slowly adjust the near change gear end leveling screw up until you get first movement on the level. Move the level to the far side and repeat with far side. 

Start refining the leveling this time snugging the locknuts. It's quite possible you'll have a jacking bolt with no weight on it. If the floor is stout (5" or thicker) and intact drill for hold-down bolts. Hereafter work the bolts against the jack screws. You may find your body weight on the floor is affecting the leveling. This may indicate the subsoil has subsided under the concrete. If this is a problem talk to a concrete contractor about slab jacking.

Now to tune up the spindle and for that you need a proof mandrel. I hate the factory ones. They're always limber and crooked. 

I prefer a home made mandrel. Chuck a piece of 4" (for your lathe) sch 40 pipe about a foot long. Using HSS and light cuts, turn a couple of short diameters about 1/4" long one next to the jaws and the other at the far end. Relieve the pipe between the diameters. The pipe is sure to chatter; plunk a piece of plywood against the end of the pipe so it stays there with the center's thrust. This will stop the chatter without influencing the final straightness of the pipe. Finish the diameters to the same size. 

Check them with a mike and a dial indicator. Find the average point of both diameters (there's always a trifling amount of run-out when machining pipe). These average points are used when checking for spindle parallelism with the carriage motion. 

Mount an indicator on the carriage so it registers the diameters in the vertical plane. Traverse the carriage along the ways. Adjust the change gear end to bring the spindle axis parallel with the ways in the vertical plane.

Repeat moving the indicator and differentially adjust the jacks to bring the diameters into parallel in the horizontal plane. A second indicator on the vertical plane will allow you to adjust for the horizontal plane without disturbing the vertical. You may need a helper. 

This in not a 1-2-3 operation. You'll have to go over the machine several times to bring it in level and the spindle axis parallel to the carriage motion. If the machine has significant wear you'll most likely have to compromise.[/FONT]


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## tino_ale

darkzero said:


> The materials. 5/8" threaded rod. My Mason mounts are 1/2"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Made four mounts with threads.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To make things easier & keep costs down, I threaded all the way through. To prevent the studs from threading past the bottom, I deformed the edge of the thread to create a "stop".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The finished mounts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Installed. I'm still using four of the Mason mounts on the outside to help keep the lathe in place. With just the solid mounts, I can move the lathe if I give it a good push.



Looking back at these pics, this is exactly what I need to do. Very well done.

Are those zink-plated steel rods or something beefier ? Those are rather soft in my experience


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## darkzero

tino_ale said:


> Looking back at these pics, this is exactly what I need to do. Very well done.
> 
> Are those zink-plated steel rods or something beefier ? Those are rather soft in my experience



Thanks. Just cheap all thread from the hardware store. Been meaning to order something better & make large base nuts but haven't got around to it. They've been doing fine though.


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## tino_ale

@Darkzero,

Would you mind providing me with the detailed info of the adds-on you have done to your lathe ? Looking for the Kipp lever reference

If there is any other drop-in "mod" you would recommend I am interrested. Thanks a lot


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## StrikerDown

Will,

Thanks for the links to get the Lyndex Ball Bearing nut... Mine arrived today. My luck is running true to form, the threads are slightly different on my R8/ER 40 chuck:sick2: so the new nut wont fit! On the up side the threads are a perfect match for the flange/backing plate ER 40 chuck! :thumbsup:


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## darkzero

I was out out of town, just got in....



tino_ale said:


> @Darkzero,
> 
> Would you mind providing me with the detailed info of the adds-on you have done to your lathe ? Looking for the Kipp lever reference
> 
> If there is any other drop-in "mod" you would recommend I am interrested. Thanks a lot



Off the top of my head, I don't remember all the "mods" I have done to my lathe. Really they are just "add ons" & to my personal preferences. Most of what I have done is probably documented in this thread, much too time consuming to post in detail summarized all in one post.

Aside from the carriage lock lever I would say the SHCSs I used for my compound is an add on that was very worthwhile for me.

The info for my carriage lock lever are in posts 136, 140, & 147.




StrikerDown said:


> Will,
> 
> Thanks for the links to get the Lyndex Ball Bearing nut... Mine arrived today. My luck is running true to form, the threads are slightly different on my R8/ER 40 chuck:sick2: so the new nut wont fit! On the up side the threads are a perfect match for the flange/backing plate ER 40 chuck! :thumbsup:



Ray, np. Interesting, sorry to hear that. The Lyndex nuts fit my R8 ER40 chucks fine. I've also had Rego fix bearing nuts & they also fit fine. I always thought ER chucks followed an industry standard, the threads are metric & all the nuts I have are compatible with what I have including the Chinese import nuts.


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## StrikerDown

Will,

I haven't had time to check the thread pitch and size, I guess it could be a little oversize on the chuck shaft, I wouldn't be surprised since it's inexpensive chinese that came with the ER 40 set. Even though the chuck was the cheap ChiStuff it had .00005 (or, too small to check with the Interapid) to .0003" runout on all the sizes that I have checked... very happy with the runout but the steel quality seems soft and I don't see it standing up to lots of wear. 
Time to start the search... Bison looks nice but costs more than my 23 piece set W/ chuck in nice wood box! :sick2:


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## tino_ale

Still can't believe how some lucky fews here have snagged Bison chucks for around 700-800 bucks IIRC brand new a few years back, now it's almost double of that amount and getting really hard to justify


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## precisionworks

tino_ale said:


> Still can't believe how some lucky fews here have snagged Bison chucks for around 700-800 bucks IIRC brand new a few years back, now it's almost double of that amount and getting really hard to justify


I posted a thread some time ago about both the problems with my Bison chuck & the total & complete lack of customer service ... "sorry about that" was the best solution they provided. Many owners of Bison chucks are happy with them - meaning they probably never needed customer service or support. 

If you get one of the 95% that are perfect you'll be happy. If you get one of the 5% that needs work you're on your own. The good news is you can set up to regrind your chuck to near perfection for under $500 & that's what I did. The alternative was to use it as a door stop or boat anchor & both those looked attractive until I figured out how to regrind the jaws. 

A similar story from a member at PM: 

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/new-bison-lathe-chuck-not-holding-work-slipping-242037/


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## darkzero

StrikerDown said:


> Will,
> 
> I haven't had time to check the thread pitch and size, I guess it could be a little oversize on the chuck shaft, I wouldn't be surprised since it's inexpensive chinese that came with the ER 40 set. Even though the chuck was the cheap ChiStuff it had .00005 (or, too small to check with the Interapid) to .0003" runout on all the sizes that I have checked... very happy with the runout but the steel quality seems soft and I don't see it standing up to lots of wear.
> Time to start the search... Bison looks nice but costs more than my 23 piece set W/ chuck in nice wood box! :sick2:



Yup, I've noticed the Bison/TMX ER chucks go up in price a number of times since I bought mine (like most of their stuff). I got my other one from Mark (gt40) a while back. If I were looking to buy another ER40 R8 chuck today for less I'd probably try this one:

http://www.absimporttools.com/pro-r8-er-40-collet-chuck-drawbar-3901-5069.html
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00K04B596/?tag=cpf0b6-20

The photo is not accurate & I've never seen one but I have an arbor from them, the nickel finish is pretty nice, reminds me of my Glacern ER16 R8 chuck.


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## StrikerDown

Will, Thanks for the tip, I ordered the R8 ER-40 collet chuck from the second link above and the fit and finish is superb plus the Lyndex Ball nut fit very well and screwed on very smoothly.
I tried to order from ABS Imports but it looks like they only sell to their distribution network. I contacted them about their Pro R8 ER-40 to see if they knew if the Lyndex Ball nut would fit. Rob said it should but they also have a ball nut if interested. thinking that I could use one on the lathe and mill I ordered one to try out. When it arrived I found it to be of high quality appearance and the bearing action was as smooth as the Lyndex! One small problem with it is they neglected to machine in the eccentric flange/lip that engages the groove in the collets to extract the collet when the nut is loosened. I again contacted Rob at ABS Imports and he could not believe it so he checked his inventory and sadly mine was the norm! He said he was going to be at the manufacturer in a couple weeks on business and would get it fixed. I imagine they order these in very large quantity so this looks like a BIG screw up!


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## precisionworks

The ER-40 system is nice for the larger size tooling, any size shank from 1/2" to 1". It will hold slightly smaller shanks but 3/8" is the end of the useful gripping range. Funny that all the "complete" sets run down to 1/16" & the smallest collets have little grip. 

One solution is to purchase an ER-32 collet chuck & buy collets from 1/2" and smaller. Or buy a chuck extension with either a 1" shank or a 3/4" shank to fit into the ER-40 collet:

ER-16 holding 3/8" collet:





ER-16 holding 1/16" collet:


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## StrikerDown

I added an ER-16 set to my stack of tools not too long ago for all the reasons listed... ER-16 Collets are so cute! And functional:wave:


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## darkzero

StrikerDown said:


> Will, Thanks for the tip, I ordered the R8 ER-40 collet chuck from the second link above and the fit and finish is superb plus the Lyndex Ball nut fit very well and screwed on very smoothly.
> I tried to order from ABS Imports but it looks like they only sell to their distribution network. I contacted them about their Pro R8 ER-40 to see if they knew if the Lyndex Ball nut would fit. Rob said it should but they also have a ball nut if interested. thinking that I could use one on the lathe and mill I ordered one to try out. When it arrived I found it to be of high quality appearance and the bearing action was as smooth as the Lyndex! One small problem with it is they neglected to machine in the eccentric flange/lip that engages the groove in the collets to extract the collet when the nut is loosened. I again contacted Rob at ABS Imports and he could not believe it so he checked his inventory and sadly mine was the norm! He said he was going to be at the manufacturer in a couple weeks on business and would get it fixed. I imagine they order these in very large quantity so this looks like a BIG screw up!



No problem Ray, thanks for sharing! I have a flyer from them HHIP that shows the bearing nuts & I thought they looked pretty nice too. Sucks to hear about the "defect" but good to hear they have good communication & will take care of it.

Could you please post a pic of the ER40 chuck? Just curious & would like to see it.

I have a ER16 R8 chuck from GMT, it's the nickel finish also & is pretty nice. Although I have a Lyndex ER16 extension now I prefer to use the GMT ER16 much more.


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## StrikerDown

I will post a pic but I'm out of town for about a week. 

I may end up with an R8/ER-16 also if the ER-40 plus ER-16 stick out is too tight. But when there is adequate clearance the smallish ER-16 chuck is nice for seeing whats going on with those small end mills.


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## darkzero

StrikerDown said:


> I will post a pic but I'm out of town for about a week.
> 
> I may end up with an R8/ER-16 also if the ER-40 plus ER-16 stick out is too tight. But when there is adequate clearance the smallish ER-16 chuck is nice for seeing whats going on with those small end mills.



No problem Ray, whenever you can, thanks.

I also got the ER16 extension for working in tight spaces as Barry suggested. Haven't ran into that need yet though as R8 ER16 with slim nut has worked fine for me so far. I also have a DA200 extension with a full set of Techniks collets but I use that mostly on the lathe for small work holding.


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