# Reflectored Stenlight



## JonSidneyB (May 17, 2006)

I have a Donified Stenlight. 
This is with cut down PD reflectors, the reflectors are now a little shorter so they have more spill than a PD. The pair of orange peel reflectored leds looks like a single beam until you are about 4 inches from the wall. Don had to do a cut to the ouside of the reflectors to get them to fit properly but they look like a factory install to me. The production reflectors will be fantastic.

It is well lit here right now so can only do limited testing. I went into the bathroom and did the white ceiling test. The spill beam looks to be almost twice as wide so it has much more volume. The hotspot however is a little smaller and more intense. Up close the spill is more than bright enough for practical use and the hotspot is more concentrated for more reach. 

I can't wait until it is dark to do a proper test. I will send this to Jtice after the weekend, I am meeting some cavers and want to show it to them. If others like this as much as I do and the Jtice review creates interest, I will get a run of reflectors made and then we can have Super Stens

The beams on these are smooth and artifact free like Don is famous for

This will be a drop in upgrade


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## wquiles (May 17, 2006)

*Re: The Stenlight just got better*

I don't own a Stenlight, but that sounds awesome !!!

Will


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## bwaites (May 17, 2006)

*Re: The Stenlight just got better*

GREAT NEWS!!!

Bill


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## jtice (May 17, 2006)

*Re: The Stenlight just got better*

These reflectors MIGHT work to replace the optics in many lights 

Cant wait to check it out Jon, sounds fantastic.

~John


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## JonSidneyB (May 17, 2006)

*Re: The Stenlight just got better*

Shoot, I hope news of these does not leak out of CPF, I wanted to surprize some cavers with this. I posted too soon. Don't tell anyone outside of CPF about this yet. ACK


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## jar3ds (May 17, 2006)

*Re: The Stenlight just got better*

pictures!


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## k1_ (May 17, 2006)

*Re: The Stenlight just got better*

Man, am I glad you went and did that JSB. I was considering it for my Stunlight, but didn't want to get into the complications with what is already the best light around.

But if you're going to do a run of reflectors, I am *there*.

k1


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## Blindspot (May 17, 2006)

*Re: The Stenlight just got better*

I'm in for the new reflector if you produce them.


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## JonSidneyB (May 17, 2006)

*Headlamp*

I am going to change the title of this so it is not obvious until I have a chance to surprize the Grottos here with the change. Then I will put the title back the way it is now. I don't want my competitors to know I have a secret weapon at some caver shows until the one in June is over.

I will get some pics soon.


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## cave dave (May 17, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

I'm in!

enough said?


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## spyderknut (May 17, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Beamshots!(but I am in)


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## NewBie (May 17, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Side by side beamshots, no saturated hot spot, in the same photo would be very useful.


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## JonSidneyB (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Jtice will do a better job on the pictures than I will. I will try and send it to him to look at on Monday.


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## jtice (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

 cant wait to get my grubby hands on it. :devil:

I will get some good shots, comparing it to my setup.
Think im running 25 and 6 degree optics in mine now.


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## JonSidneyB (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*


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## jtice (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

you tease you 

Bare in mind folks, 
these are just prototypes.
The production versions will have the OD made to fit the stenlight perfectly.
I think Don used those red orings to shim the OD on these protos.

~John


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## benh (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

That looks freaking awesome. I can't wait to get my hands on a set to try out on my bike.


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## JonSidneyB (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*






This is a really bad picture. The wall is imperfect and has shiny spots on it, a blanket is covering the window and a stock and donified sten are setting in the same chair so so there is some angle on the lights, the two lights are side by side pointing away form each other and also pointing at an upward angle at close range to the wall.

The beam on the right is the modified Sten.


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## bwaites (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

So is this the spot side only or the combined of each!

Bill


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## JonSidneyB (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

This is with a pair of modified PD reflectors.

The PD reflectors have spill where the optics has very little. I tried the light last night in the dark, there is enough spill to use, I just had the spot adjusted a tiny bit high. When I wanted to see at a distance I just moved my eyes up a tiny bit. I had more periefrail light with the reflectors and more throw at the same time.

The stock Sten is almost all hotspot as you see on the left, on the right don has good spill and an intense spot. The lights are only a couple of feet from the wall and like I said are really bad angles.


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## dbedit (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

From my point of view you have for sure added quality to the stenlight beam. IMHO the spill is where the stenlight suffered a bit. I cant wait to get my hands on a set of these as well. I am in for at least one set. Probably two since I plan on buying another stenlight set up.


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## cave dave (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

I wonder if one optic and one Reflector would be the way to go?

I could arrange to be in W. VA this next couple weekends if Jtice is going to do some testing.

-Dave J


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## JonSidneyB (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Since the reflectors have both more throw and the spill creates flood. I think you will get both less throw and less flood by keeping an optic in place but it could be tried to see what happens


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## cave dave (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

True, but sometimes the hotspot is a little too small with reflectors and there is a sharp transition from hotspot to spill.


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## Archangel (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

I agree. I'm thinking only one of the two should be swapped.


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## InFlux (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Fantastic idea!

The only reason why I didn't go in on the Stenlight group buy was because I don't care for optics. Oh, and the fact that I don't go caving  

Anyway, it's going back in my wish list...


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## wasBlinded (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

For caving specifically, a broad spill might be less popular with fellow cavers, since it will be harder to keep them from getting some glare from your light.

In some respects, the current Stenlight design with two optics might be ideal for caving. It has broad "hotspot" but not much glaring (to others) spill. The beam does have some artifact, but a layer of Write-Rite over the lens smooths that out very nicely, and also further softens the hotspot a bit. You do have less ultimate throw than with the reflectors (from the pics/descriptions), but that would only be a big advantage in big room caves I think.

For a road bicycle headlight, the reflectors will be superior. You don't need a wide hotspot and you will want more throw for cycling at speed, or if on your helmet the additional throw will be useful for spotlighting the road/trail ahead or things off-trail.
I hope that was at least 2 cents worth!


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## JonSidneyB (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

The cavers that I was with said that they often like carbide for the flood? Hmmmm

I think this needs to be tried in all configurations to find with is best.


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## cave dave (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*



JonSidneyB said:


> The cavers that I was with said that they often like carbide for the flood? Hmmmm
> 
> I think this needs to be tried in all configurations to find with is best.




Agreed!

Where do I paypal?

PS what i find with the stock optic setup is that I am constantly having to reach up and tilt the light up and down, to get some light at my feet or ahead in front of me. When I tilt it down towards my feet it becomes too bright so I have to turn it down. When I then tilt it up to see something in the distance I have to tilt it then turn it up. The good side is this saves batteries, the bad side is that there is a lot of fiddling and mud gets on the lens from my muddy hands.

I want to be able to have a nuetral straight ahead positioning when i'm standing up and my head isn't tilted up or down, but still be able to see my feet by just tilting my eyes and only moving my head just a bit. Does this make sense? basically, I don't want to crain my neck just to see my feet.


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## hank (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp -- been there, fixed that*

Put a tiny little aluminum foil brim over the top of the light; it'll throw just enough reflection down to help with where your feet are, and if you want to look up, you'll look up.


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## JonSidneyB (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Cave>

When I tried it last night, I was able to do close stuff no problem and the spill was able to illuminate the area in front of my feet sufficiently on low. I just had to adjust my eyes slightly to see the spot ahead.


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## JonSidneyB (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Hank,

I am not sure that will last long where we use them, you crawl hundereds of feet on your belly with gouges getting scratched into your helmet, then you wade through deep water and crawl through mud. Then you find places you can barely fit and get stuck several times then you break out the mountain climbing gear. I am not sure the foil is going to stay very well.


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## jtice (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

you WANT ALOT of flood for caving.
You NEED to see whats around you and at your feet.

You cant prevent each other blinding each other.


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## wasBlinded (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

I won't argue that the individual wants a lot of flood for caving. What I'm saying is that with high color temperature LEDs, glare in the eyes of other cavers is going to be more significant with a reflector. Carbide flames are less of a factor in this regard because of their very low color temperature and surface brightness.


If your fellow cavers don't care, rock on!


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## NewBie (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

When I am in mines, I find that using a light with a tight hotspot thrashes my vision. When I use a tight hotspot reflector type lights, I usually end up having to throw the hotspot on anything I'm trying to see, or I can't see things.

A broader soft hotspot, doesn't screw up my eyes anywhere nearly as bad.

The broad soft "hotspot" (aka, dimmer and covering more area with light), also helps me recognize things much better.

Don't get me wrong though, a tight hotspot is useful when you find that rare area that is straight for a long distance, and you want to see the end.

Though, when using a broad softspot optic setup, since there are no burning bright hot spots to mess up my vision like a reflector does, I find I can see alot of other things much better.

I've tried doing the diffuser material over the reflector trick, but any way you cut it, you are just loosing lumens...


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## PeLu (May 19, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*



cave dave said:


> PS what i find with the stock optic setup is that I am constantly having to reach up and tilt the light up and down,


I agree with cave dave and as people know, it was my main point of critics that it had not enough flood. 

In my experience, fellow cavers take more advantage of other cavers flood light than they complain about blinding, but of course YMMV.

And the good thing with the Stenlight is, that it is quite easy to try any combination of optics and now reflectors. 

The only thing missing now are independent switchable LEDs .-)


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## spyderknut (May 19, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Hmmm, I wonder what this light would be like with just one textured reflector.....


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## JonSidneyB (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

The reflectored version was tested in a cave against the standard version.

Just like the McGizmo flashlights, the spill was adequate for the job in spite of the bright hotspot. The optics did not have near as wide of a beam. Also the reflectored one was able to illuminate things at a distance where to optics were struggling.

We were inspecting a clean up job in one room and people over and over wanted me to illuminate things with the Sten since they would have to inspect upclose with their lights. The Sten was a real time saver.

I am learning that the best way to sell a Sten is to go out with headlamp users and completly blow away the best that the whole group is using.


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## wquiles (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Awesome - glad to hear that the reflectored version is in fact a winner 

Will


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## JonSidneyB (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

We will see if Jtice agrees, it should have arrived at his place today.


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## jtice (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Damn, no Sten in the mail today 

Did you ship it via USPS Jon?

Oh well, maybe tomorrow.

~John


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## JonSidneyB (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

It went out Monday morning, I would have thought it would have arrived


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## vtunderground (May 25, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*



JonSidneyB said:


> The reflectored version was tested in a cave against the standard version.



With the reflectored version, did you find the spot in the beam to be distracting? The only complaint I have about my current caving headlamp (Pelican 2630) is that even though it has a nice wide & bright spill beam, the spot is still bright enough to be distracting in some passages (as in, my eyes keep getting drawn to the spot in the beam, as opposed to the ground ahead of me).


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## jtice (May 25, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

The Stenlight equiped with the Prototype Reflectors arrived today.

Here are my first impressions.
1. MUCH smoother beam than any of the optics I have found.
2. Much wider Spill, and alittle brighter.
3. Brighter Hotspot, throws better.

I hope to do some testing in the caves this Sunday.
But after testing it out in the house, garage, and out in the yard,
I am very impressed, and like the reflectors better overal.

Bare in mind, I have 25 and 6 Degree optics in my Stenlight.
This is NOT stock, which is 15 and 5 degree optics.
But, My optics setup is better than the stock setup, IMO.
It has a brighter spot, and little wider flood.

The Reflectors take that further, with a tighter spot, and much wider spill.
In the garage, and in the yard, the hotspot is perfect, it opens up just enough, but still has good throw.
The flood starts getting really wide, and I noticed it improved perefrial vision.

Some that dont like a tight spot may not like the reflectors as much,
the optics make wider spots, but they bother me, due to their odd shapes, and artifacts.
Alot of that is personal preference.
Bottom line?
If Jon makes these a reality, I will definately be replacing my optics !
If I were to be extremely picky, which I am, I would add a slight corona around the spot, to make the transition to spill smoother.
But, that would be at the expence of throw I figure.
Again, personal preference.

One to the Beamshots !!!!!

Notice the optics version has a lopsided beam. Since there are two different optics in it.






















~John


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## dbedit (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

They do look good I cant wait to hear the report of how these work for you. There is a very noticable difference in the beam shots you posted for sure. Snap a few pics in the cave if you can, I would love to see the reflectors in action.


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## Sway (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Nice beam shots John, the reflectors look like they have a little larger more even hot spot that fades into a corona where the optics transition from spot to flood with little or no corona. 

In the shots of the white sheet it easy to see this but then the optics looks to be illuminating more of the room to the sides and ceiling :shrug: that’s the way it looks to me. Any way to set your light meter up to the side of the room and see what kind or reading you get and have you tried the reflectors in your Sten to see if the results are the same? It’s obvious the tint is different in the two Sten’s I’m just wondering if one may be a little brighter or the tint is throwing me off.

Later
Kelly


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## jtice (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

The white sheet shot is a bit misleading,
I should have had the lights closer to the sheet, or Ideailly, given more room, the camera back further.

You are not really seeing the edge of the reflectors spill there,
thats just wide enough to see the optics spill, which is much more narrow, and brighter toward the center.

The optics seem to have very little flood, its mostly corona toward the outter edge.

The reflector spill might be sliiiiightly dimmer, but its alot wider.

Once I went out in the garage, and in the yard, it was no contest, I liked the Reflectors better.

~John


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## Sway (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Thanks John, that’s what I was looking for..........Now I just hope the cut down reflectors will fit in the Apex as I’m not much of an optic fan, this could be the upgrade I have been looking for 

Later
Kelly


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## cave dave (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*



jtice said:


> If I were to be extremely picky, which I am, I would add a slight corona around the spot, to make the transition to spill smoother.
> ~John


Couldn't that be achieved by using one reflector and one optic?
You would lose some brightness in the spill, but you add some corona.


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## wasBlinded (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Heavier stippling or orange peel will give a better corona and transition to spill, but at the expense of the hotspot. It all depends on Don's design goals.


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## Boricle (May 27, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Just when I thought I'd be able to avoid buying more light related things!

Looks really good. There will be at least one order from Australia when these are ready!

Cheers,

Boricle.


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## vtunderground (May 27, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*



wasBlinded said:


> Heavier stippling or orange peel will give a better corona and transition to spill, but at the expense of the hotspot. It all depends on Don's design goals.



Yeah, it'd be interesting to see the difference with a heavily textured reflector.


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## spyderknut (May 30, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

I'd still like to see just the wide angle optic replaced with a reflector. You might get the best of both worlds.


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## jtice (May 30, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Well, the light is on its way back to Jon today.

I didnt get a chance to take it caving  buddies had to work this weekend.

One of the best things about having the 2 LED setup, is the fact that you can swap the optics and make many different beam combinations.
And this is all personal preference, so yes, having one optic and one reflector might be best for some people.

The Reflectos had wider flood than the 25 defree optics, 
so thats a given, that they are better then the 25s, 
spill is very important to me when caving, so I think the 2 reflectors adding their spill would be best for me,
and I still have a spot for throw.
If you dont like a tight spot, and want a whider one, and dont mind giving up some spill brightness, 
then a reflector/optic combo might be best for you.

~John


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## cave dave (May 31, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

What no passaround? I'll be caving June 9th-10th, hint hint.

JTICE, this is for not taking it underground :whoopin:

JSB, You ought to send it on the the Stenlight guys, unless of course you want a JSB/CPF exclusive!


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## Lurveleven (Jun 1, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

I got to try my Stenlight for the first time two nights ago (flashlight season is over where I live, so it was not dark enough for optimal testing even at 2 am). I was hiking up and down a steep mountain, and the one thing I missed was sidespill, so I'm definitly going to get the reflectors if you are going to sell them.

Sigbjoern


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## bwaites (Jun 1, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

How about a heavy stipple and the orange peel shown. That would give a lot of options. 2 OP, 1 each, 2 stipple, optic + OP, etc.

I suspect I'll want one OP and one stipple, to give a lot of spread but also a definite hotspot.

Bill


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## Lurveleven (Jun 1, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Great idea Bill!!

Sigbjoern


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## JonSidneyB (Jun 5, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

stippling...I think I saw out here to add stippling to a reflector as a do it yourself thing?


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## jtice (Jun 5, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

I got to do a caving trip over the weekend, felt great to be back at it, it had been alittle while.

My buddy Ben has a Stenlight also, he still has the stock optics in it. (15 and 5 degree)
I have 25 and 6 degree optics in mine.

We spend a good bit of time trading off and trying out each others setups.
his is a large spot, with not much spill.
Mine is a much tighter spot, with some sill light. Much closer to the reflectors beam type.

We had a very hard time picking which we liked better.
I like the wider spill that mine had, but I also liked his real wide hotspot.
His would light up a larger area in front of you, but didnt have the throw that mine did.
I was on Medium most the time, kicking to high in some larger rooms, and using low when we took breaks.
I think his having less throw, might have made me us high more than I would have to with mine.

You simply cant win, period.
If you widen the spot you loose throw. So its hard to get the shape you want, while still keeping the brightness and throw you want.
The reflectors manage the lumens better, so I think you could widen the spot more with a reflector, and still keep some throw.
I think I may play around with the optics in mine again,
I think overal, I liked the wider spot better, but maybe not quite as wide as his stock Sten. I would like to keep just little more throw.

~John


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## bwaites (Jun 5, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Jon,

Stippling is a coating similar to the orange peel, but which diffuses the beam more.

Litho123 had a passaround going of Carley reflectors with 3 different levels of orange peel and 3 different level of stippling. 

You can create somewhat of the effect using Krylon clear finishes, but the stippling coating is much more effective.

Bill


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## JonSidneyB (Jun 7, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

I am wondering if an existing reflector can be properly stippled.


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## Knight Lights (Jun 7, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Stippling is essentially a special undercoating applied before the final coat of reflective plating, as I understand it.

Bill


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## JonSidneyB (Jun 12, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

Im Stupid,

I was thinking of sputtering.


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## JonSidneyB (Jun 16, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

shhhhhhh, here is a secret.

The reflector system is getting better, It is going to be part of the thermal management system and have a larger corona.


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## jtice (Jun 16, 2006)

*Re: Headlamp*

 well, that sounds gooooood


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## JonSidneyB (Jun 26, 2006)

The cavers that saw the reflectored Sten said they are sold on it. The loved they way it performed. This project is a go.


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## newbie05 (Jun 27, 2006)

Jon- I love my Stenlight- I'm a front end mechanic by trade, and this light blows everything else out of the water! Count me in when this gets going!


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## cy (Jun 28, 2006)

what a killer option for stenlight! 

when do we send PP?


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## Lurveleven (Jun 30, 2006)

JonSidneyB said:


> The cavers that saw the reflectored Sten said they are sold on it. The loved they way it performed. This project is a go.



Thank you for the great news! I'm definitely going to get a set. I hope there will be enough for everyone that wants it.

Sigbjoern


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## JonSidneyB (Jul 1, 2006)

There will be enough of them. I intented to use these to become the biggest seller of Stenlight out there. To do that, I will have to offer two different prices. One price for those that got Stens from me and another price for those that got them from someone else. I need to find away to get the Stenlight sales to flow to me.

I should be able to quote a price on them on Monday.

I hope you cavers out here can help me spread the word when I am ready Thanks guys.

I need to decide if this goes in group buys or dealers corner when I am ready.


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## wasBlinded (Jul 1, 2006)

I will definitely spread the word amongst my caving aquaintances. I've only had the Stenlight in a cave once so far, and my co-cavers were quite awed, with output as well as price.

But it is summer now, and lots of things to do instead of caving! I probably won't be doing much proselytizing again until fall.

Definitely anxious to give those reflectors a try though.


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## Vonnycaver (Jul 16, 2006)

While I was attending Cave Capers (a caver reunion in Indiana) last month, I had the opportunity to be introduced to the reflectored version of the StenLight. Jon Burlison showed me the difference between my regular StenLight and a version of the StenLight equipped with a prototype of a reflector. 

I was skeptic that I would prefer that over the regular StenLight, with which I was already extremely pleased, but lo and behold, I found that the reflector was a definite improvement. One concern with my current StenLight is that I have to reposition the head piece depending on whether I am crawling or walking in cave. It seems that the new reflector addresses that problem nicely by using more spread, which gives me more up-and-down vision as well as wider peripheral vision. I find that extremely useful for caving, as it is tedious to reposition the head piece, especially with muddy hands or when you are in tight crawlways. I'd rather just keep it in one place most of the time. The wider peripheral vision is also important as it allows you to see more of the cave floor ahead of you, in order to choose where to step next. 

I also found Jon's demo of pointing the light into far-away trees quite impressive. The spot light seems more focused and powerful than on my regular StenLight. It will really help me when I am looking for detail high up on the wall or in domes, to check for new cave passage.

In addition, I liked Jon's demonstration of how pure the light is with the reflector: no artifacts in the circle of light at all. I'm pretty convinced that the reflector is what I prefer, and am eagerly awaiting mine. One more improvement to an otherwise fantastic caving light! 

Yvonne Droms


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## NewBie (Jul 16, 2006)

Do you prefer one reflector and one optic or two reflectors?


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## Vonnycaver (Jul 17, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Do you prefer one reflector and one optic or two reflectors?


I never saw a demonstration of a mix of reflector and optic, so I meant that I liked the new "reflectored StenLight." I was thinking of the reflectors as one unit.


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## jtice (Jul 28, 2006)

I got my review of the Prototype Reflectors up 

They are Sweeeeeet. 

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1522531#post1522531

~John


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