# Tiablo A10 R2 WC Review



## ernsanada (Dec 24, 2008)

I just received the Tiablo A10 R2 WC from Tiablo.

My first impressions is that the A10 is built tough. The light feels very solid. The A10 has very agressive knurling on the battery tube. 

The battery tube has very thick walls. It looks like the inside of the battery tube has a brass sleeve inserted.

The fit is excellent. Threads are smooth. The A10 uses some thick o-rings, none of those thin "el cheapo" o- rings. I give the grade A.

The finish is excellent. No flaws in the Black Type III Hard Anodize. The logo are done very good no "blotching". I give the grade A.

The UI wasn't very hard to figure out. The stock A10 uses a reverse clickie. It's 2 stage variable adjustment or Tiablo calls it "Infinite Brightness". The first stage you can adjust the beam from high to low or low to high. 

After you click on then click again and hold down the rear clickie for about 3 seconds. The light drops into a low beam and automatically goes into "Infinite Brightness". 1% to 100%, at these levels the light goes to 0%-----100%---50%----1% during this process, the light will flicker twice at 50% output and flicker three times at 100% output. After 100% the light goes the opposite way to low.

Anytime you want to stop a certain light level desired you click once and the A10 will stop at the level and remember that level.

The second click, setting or level you can adjust the level from fast flicker, slower flicker, SOS, low to high, then high back to low. To get into this adjustment mode hold down the rear clickie for 3 seconds. There looks to be a fast blink between SOS then to low to high and a fast blink between high to low. When I was checking the level sequence on my light the fast flicker was starting to get my a little dizzy and a little disoriented. The first light with strobe to do this to me. Maybe it's due to fact I only slept 5 hours last night and just got off work.

When you remove the battery the A10 defaluts to high on the first setting and fast strobe on the second setting.

The beam on my A10 has a nice white hot spot followed by the characteristic ring, mine is yellow in color. 

Comparing the hot spot to my Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S the A10 has a smaller hot spot.

The spill on the A10 R2 is not as bright as the Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S.

The A10 gets a slightly higher lux readings compared to my DBS V2 Q5 3S @ 1 meter. When using AW's Protected 18650 vs AW's Protected RCR123' the lux number gets slightly higher lux readings but not by much. 

In my beam shots at 96", the stepped down exposure, the Tiablo A10 R2 WC looks like it beats the DBS V2 Q5 3S.

At a distance it's very hard to tell wins the title of the "throw king" but it look like the DBS V2 Q5 3S edges out the Tiablo A10 R2 WC at longer distances 146' or 44.5 meters and 210' or 64 meters in my beam shots. It maybe due to the larger hot spot of the DBS V2 Q5 3S vs the smaller hot spot of the Tiablo A10 R2 WC. Maybe if I run the the 2 AW's Protected RCR 123's in the A10 the the edge may go to the A10.

The A10 uses a GITD o-ring behind the lens.

There are issues with the pill specifications. ma and draw to the R2. 

My A10 is getting the battery current draw numbers as follows, AW's Protected 18650 - 1.02A. AW's RCR123's - 1.03A.

Voltage 2.75V to 8.5V


Pros

Excellent build quality, machining and finish.

Uses thick battery tubes with a brass insert.

Uses thick o-rings.

Comes with a spare o-rings, lanyard and GITD rear rubber clickie cover.

Will tail stand.


Cons

Specs are not as advertised.

No holster.

---------------------------------------------------------

I just completed a short video on Tiablo's A10 User Interface.

Click on link for Tiablo A10 R2's Users Interface video.


---------------------------------------------------------




























Comes with lanyard, o-rings and GITD rear switch rubber cover.






Uses R2 WC











Rear view of the R2 WC module.






Reflector size. Width - 5.267mm, Length - 50.17mm






Lens size. 5.275mm. Thickness 2.45mm






Agressive knurling on the battery tube. Uses thick o-rings.






Has a brass sleeve inserted inside the battery tube.






Inside view of the rear clickie.






Rear reverse clickie. A forward clickie is being sent to everybody who purchased the light.

















Size comparsions.

Left, Tiablo A10 R2 WC, Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S






Left, Tiablo A10 R2 WC, Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S






Reflector 

Left, Tiablo A10 R2 WC, Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S






Left, Tiablo A10 R2 WC, Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S







_______________________________________


I also took lux readings of the lights shown above. These are the lux readings I got. I am using a Meterman LM631 Light Meter measured at 1 meter. I waited 2 minutes before taking the readings. I am using AW's Protected Black 18650's and AW's Protected RCR123's which were fully charged.


Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 21300 lux @ 1 meter

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 2 RCR123's - 21730 lux @ 1 meter

Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 - 20,767 lux @ 1 meter


________________________________________


Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 @ 96"






Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 96"






Left, Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650, Right, Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 96"






Left, Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650, Right, Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 96" Stepped down exposure







-------------------------------------

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 @ 32'






Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 32'






Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 @ 32' Stepped down exposure






Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 32' Stepped down exposure







-------------------------------------------


Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 @ 146' or 44.5 meters






Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 146' or 44.5 meters






Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 @ 210' or 64 meters






Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 210' or 64 meters







-------------------------------------------------



Beam shots taken against buildings. At this time distance unknown.


Tiablo A10 R2 WC






DBS V2 Q5 3S






Tiablo A10 R2 WC






DBS V2 Q5 3S








I edited these beam shots in. They are the longer of two distances shown above. The shots are stepped down in two groups.


Tiablo A10 R2 WC






DBS V2 Q5 3S






Tiablo A10 R2 WC






DBS V2 Q5 3S


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## ernsanada (Dec 24, 2008)

Reserved


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## adirondackdestroyer (Dec 24, 2008)

Nice review. Looks like it has no where near the 40,000 lux that Tiablo claims.


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## kramer5150 (Dec 24, 2008)

Nice review, thanks for sharing!! Definitely a spot thrower:thumbsup:


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## KeukaLite (Dec 24, 2008)

Great review, and great camera work! Very easy to see the differences. Thanks for taking the time to do the review, A+!!!:thumbsup:


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## ergotelis (Dec 24, 2008)

All i can say, i am happy i didn't purchased the A10 and got the RX-1! 
Νothing special seen, if DBS had a R2 bin then it would be the same result i guess.Also, the hotspot of A10 is very tiny, almost useless for me.


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## shahzh (Dec 24, 2008)

Nice pics and good review:thumbsup:.


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## OCDGearhead (Dec 24, 2008)

Another good review and I like those shrubs in the back yard.

Very solid looking light. Makes the DBS look petite by comparison.

Thanks for the look.


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## fieldops (Dec 25, 2008)

Nice review, Ernsanada! Great pics too.


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## Tiablo (Dec 25, 2008)

:thumbsup:Thanks for your great review!

Merry Christmas

best regards


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## Policetacteam (Dec 25, 2008)

Nice Job! Informative and objective!! Great pics as well!


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## alohaluau (Dec 25, 2008)

Great review!

'Nuff said! :thumbsup:

Looking forward to the ACE review when you receive the module!

Cheers,
Luau


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (Dec 25, 2008)

Great review!Nice pics.I would like to see it against a DBS with a R2 and beamshots in the 200-300 foot range.


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## Rob187 (Dec 25, 2008)

Has anyone else noticed that even on the '100%' the A10 is still utilising PWM and if the beam is moved quickly against a wall, the characteristic 'gap' caused by the PWM becomes apparant.


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## alohaluau (Dec 25, 2008)

Rob187 said:


> Has anyone else noticed that even on the '100%' the A10 is still utilising PWM and if the beam is moved quickly against a wall, the characteristic 'gap' caused by the PWM becomes apparant.



Yes, and that's how I learnt the meaning of PWM... :laughing: It is quite apparent when comparing the A10 next to my A9 doing the same movement.

Cheers,
Luau


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## SCEMan (Dec 25, 2008)

Really nice review and usable. real-world beamshots. It's amazing how Dereelight was able to design the DBS to be such a compact, pocketable light with great throw and versatility. Thanks for the comparison.


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## ichoderso (Dec 25, 2008)

Hi Ernsnada and thank you for review!
How you measure the current and which DMM you use??
And can you confirm the luxreadings??
I have onother Luxmeter, with other absolut values, but I have a big difference between one and two cells....
Your results are almost the same...!!!???

Jens


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## ichoderso (Dec 25, 2008)

Hi, this is a copy from my post in the manufacturers corner(post 140) for one week:


Hi, today I dit a runtime test with my A10 and one 18650 with luxreadings

The max lux I got overall (with two cells)was 38000lux

2x 3,0V CR123: 38.000lux
2x 3,6-4,2V RCR: 38.000lux

1x AW18650 2200mAh (real 2000) full charged with 4,2V

at start: 30.000lux
drops quickly, and aproximately 27.000lux after two minutes.

than drops continously/linear from 27.000lux to 3.000 lux (at 3V).
total runtime over 5 hours!

long runtime, but only little power/ brightness......

if you need full power, and I think, this is neccesary for a "thrower" (for reading a book in a tent I have other lights)
you need two cells, and 16340 are dangerous and extrem inefficient in this light, and RC123 are to much expensive for the most flashaholics which used the flashlight every day....

Tiablo, please build a driver with good flat regulation between 3,0 and 4,2 Volt (BR200) for this light (and ACE). I think, the runtime can be 1,5 hour and this is enought for a regulated and extrem bright flashlight in my opinion

Jens


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## ernsanada (Dec 25, 2008)

ichoderso said:


> Hi Ernsnada and thank you for review!
> How you measure the current and which DMM you use??
> And can you confirm the luxreadings??
> I have onother Luxmeter, with other absolut values, but I have a big difference between one and two cells....
> ...



My lux readings seem close to what my beam shots show. Usually at 96" stepped down you can actually see what light is brighter between the A10 R2 and the DBS V2 Q5 3S.

Left, Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650, Right, Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 96" Stepped down exposure






I got these measurement from my lux meter and current draw from the battteries.

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 21300 lux @ 1 meter. AW's Protected 18650 - 1.02A

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 2 RCR123's - 21730 lux @ 1 meter. AW's RCR123's - 1.03A


Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 - 20,767 lux @ 1 meter. AW's Protected 18650 - 1.57A


The lux readings make sense because the readings from the current draw readings from the batteries are very close to what the lux numbers are.


From what I have seen on CPF everybody's light meters vary in reading lux numbers. I guess the only way to get more acurate readings are to use a intergrating sphere but the sphere is so expensive only a few have them.

For the lux measurements I use a Meterman Meterman LM631.






I'm using a Craftsman Digital Multimeter #82082


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## TITAN1833 (Dec 25, 2008)

Thanks for the review,

Looking at the beam shots I'm surprised the DBS looks that much brighter and throws a brighter beam at all ranges,if your lux reading are anything to go by.

I guess that's why [email protected] readings alone is not enough to say one throws better than the other IMO


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## ichoderso (Dec 25, 2008)

ernsnada, thank you for answer!
I don't speak about the "absolute" values of our different luxmeters, but I have aprox. 25% more brightness with two cells /compare to one) and you have the same....

I think, there must be two different pills in the A10 from tiablo

because the luxreadings....and the current readings too!!
I have 3 DMM, one is a $400 Fluke DMM, all have the same current readings, over 2 A from two cells!!!(over 7 Volt)

Jens
PS: you have the same brightness with one and two cells! (only 2%more with two cells...) but the same current with double voltage!
That means the double power input with two cells and only the same output, that means only the half efficiency (if 90%b with one cell, soonly 45% with two cells...) what do you think about...???
sorry for ma bad english.....hope all can understand what I mean...?


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## richardcpf (Dec 25, 2008)

ernsanada said:


> I got these measurement from my lux meter and current draw from the battteries.
> 
> Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 21300 lux @ 1 meter. AW's Protected 18650 - 1.02A
> 
> Tiablo A10 R2 WC, *2 RCR123's* - 21730 lux @ 1 meter. AW's RCR123's - *1.03A*


 
It draws the same current from 1x18650 and 2xRCR123? At 4.1 volts each and 1.02A, comsumption is more than 8 watts.

I think there is something wrong here... :thinking:


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## ichoderso (Dec 25, 2008)

richardcpf said:


> It draws the same current from 1x18650 and 2xRCR123? At 4.1 volts each and 1.02A, comsumption is more than 8 watts.
> 
> I think there is something wrong here... :thinking:


 
this is it, what I try to say...


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## evenchaos (Dec 25, 2008)

richardcpf said:


> It draws the same current from 1x18650 and 2xRCR123? At 4.1 volts each and 1.02A, comsumption is more than 8 watts.
> 
> I think there is something wrong here... :thinking:



Something is definitely wonky with the emitter and Tiablo is sidestepping the issue. I really wish they would come clean rather than having this whole mess with everybody trying to guess what is wrong. There is nothing wrong in admitting there was a mistake or is a problem.

As asked in the sales thread, could someone else please measure the current draw with two freshly charged 18650's? I suspect the lower current measurement with RCR123s is the result of the cells quickly dropping in voltage under such a heavly load.

As a side note, I measured slightly more than 0.5A draw for a freshly charged 1x18650 in my A10 with tailcap. Its a little low I would say only 2.1 - 2.2W draw  but with 2x18650s its between 2.2 & 3A :sick2:!

Update: WITHOUT tailcap I get 791mA current draw on a 3.89V 18650 cell so thats 3.07W of power consumption but still a but under powering the LED when you factor in the regulator loss.

:santa: Merry Christmas All! :santa:


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## DM51 (Dec 25, 2008)

evenchaos said:


> Tiablo is sidestepping the issue. I really wish they would come clean rather than having this whole mess with everybody trying to guess what is wrong.


I agree. Their sales thread has been a mess from the start, and there are serious questions which need answering. There is important information missing which any competent manufacturer would have published up front, right from the start. It is still not available, and one has to wonder whether Tiablo even know the answers themselves. That is an extremely unsatisfactory situation.


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## naked2 (Dec 26, 2008)

I just finished reading the review (nice as usual, erns!), and the entire thread to this point, and decided to retest my A10's current readings. Well I have to tell you, I'm flabbergasted by the new results! First let me make clear that before now, I *NEVER* tested my light with 2x RCR123/16340 or 2x CR1123A primaries; I only tested it with 2x 18350 and 1x 18650. So after reading this, I tested it with 2x RCR123, 2x CR123A, and retested with previous cells. All tests this time were done at the battery, *WITHOUT* the tailcap, same as ernsanada.

My "new" readings are 1.2A @ 8.4V with two protected blue generic Chinese cells. Printed on the side is "Li-ion 3.6V 750mAh". I purchased them from Lighthond, and it is suspected that they are AW's old blue cells without the AW sticker on them, sold as "clearence" after AW switched to the black ones, but I have no way to know for sure. I don't own any of AW's black RCRs. With two brand new "Titaniun Innovations" CR123As from BatteryJunction, it read 1.29A @ 6.55V.

I checked it again with two unprotected orange "UltraFire XSL 18350 1200mAh 3.7V" cells. It read 3.3A @ 8.35V, and not only do I have no explanation for the difference in readings, it gets even more baffling. I left the meter connected @ 3.3A for only a few seconds, removed the two orange 18350s, and reinserted the two blue RCRs. With the two RCRs, it then read 2.5A for about 5 seconds, and then started dropping back down, then rested again @ 1.2A. So I tested it with a different, depleted set of orange 18350s, and it read 1.2A @ 7V. I *DO NOT *understand this *AT ALL*! 

I need to do more testing with different pairs of cells at different voltages, including 2 protected black AW 18650s, but I only have one fully charged right now, and the other is charging as I write. With a single black AW protected it draws 1.15A @ 4.17V. 

I'm an electrician by trade, and a pretty good troubleshooter, but not with things electronic. But when troubleshooting, it's hard when the problem is intermittent, or even worse yet, when it "seems" to fix itself.

I completely agree with the quotes below, and IMO, think the mystery is still not solved. But I would also like to make clear, other than the mysterious current readings, I think the A10 is an absolutely outstanding light. I love my A9, and except the funky UI (which I hope the tactical switch will be a fix for), like the A10 much more. I don't own a DBS, and don't see any reason to get one soon. 


richardcpf said:


> It draws the same current from 1x18650 and 2xRCR123? At 4.1 volts each and 1.02A, comsumption is more than 8 watts.
> 
> I think there is something wrong here... :thinking:


 


evenchaos said:


> Something is definitely wonky with the emitter and Tiablo is sidestepping the issue. I really wish they would come clean rather than having this whole mess with everybody trying to guess what is wrong. There is nothing wrong in admitting there was a mistake or is a problem.


 


DM51 said:


> I agree. Their sales thread has been a mess from the start, and there are serious questions which need answering. There is important information missing which any competent manufacturer would have published up front, right from the start. It is still not available, and one has to wonder whether Tiablo even know the answers themselves. That is an extremely unsatisfactory situation.


 
Merry Christmas, Tony :santa:


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## ernsanada (Dec 26, 2008)

I just completed a short video on Tiablo's A10 User Interface.

Click on link for Tiablo A10 R2's Users Interface Video.


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 26, 2008)

I have use for the tiny hotspot, I want throw, but this thread has helped me to understand that I NEED to *avoid* the Tiablo A10.

I think they need a few more months to work the bugs out. Or to learn that lying to CPF'ers is not good for business. If there is 1 thing we are not it is ignorant consumers.


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## ace0001a (Dec 26, 2008)

After all the hubbub from before, I decided to take a back seat for a bit...read through what others have been saying.

A late commendation to Erns for yet another fantastic review! :thumbsup:

To me it's apparent that Tiablo rushed this flashlight out, perhaps working on the mindset of "lets try to get this out before Christmas". I have also interpreted indications that they may have already had a lower priced Q5 A10 available in the China market before releasing the R2 A10 to everyone else. How much earlier the Q5 A10 was released, I don't know. One would presume they would've at least used the China market as a testbed before releasing it worldwide, but now it seems there are a few kinks that still have yet to be knocked out of this flashlight. I do really think it's a superb product and I love it's physical feel and construction. I believe someone had posted that they were glad they didn't buy the A10 and saying they were happy they bought another much less inexpensive thrower called the MG RX-1 instead...while I am sure the RX-1 is a decently built flashlight, I can't see how it could compare to the A10 in terms of build quality. So I still do hope that Tiablo will eventually consider release and updated driver circuit on the A10 or at the very least have more information on the issue at hand.


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## ace0001a (Dec 26, 2008)

Sgt. LED said:


> I have use for the tiny hotspot, I want throw, but this thread has helped me to understand that I NEED to *avoid* the Tiablo A10.
> 
> I think they need a few more months to work the bugs out. Or to learn that lying to CPF'ers is not good for business. If there is 1 thing we are not it is ignorant consumers.



Overall, I am still happy with buying an A10. Obviously there is one major issue at hand...but I'm sure in time there will be a solution or explanation of some sort for it. Nothing is perfect and I'm not about to expect perfection even from a high end flashlight.

They did nothing wrong to promote the A10 at CPF because the reality is that we are their target customers. I seriously doubt your average consumer would consider shelling out any more than $20 for a flashlight (which is what a Maglite costs here in the US). You show them a flashlight that costs 7 times that of a Maglite and they'll probably think that is a major rip off or think anyone else who'd spend that much on a flashlight is crazy. What they did do wrong is their approach in promoting it as well as not getting proper communication across (granted their is a language barrier)...and of course they probably rushed the A10 out without fully working out the bugs as you say.


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 26, 2008)

You are right, maybe it is alot more of an error than a lie. Certainly a bad rush job.

I AM interested if there is a debugged version avalible and they can make 100% certain they don't ship out the buggy ones after the fix is done. Right now I would stick to the DBS.


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## mdocod (Dec 26, 2008)

Wow... in Tiablo's "thread" for this flashlight, they seem to indicate that it is regulated all the way from 2.7-8.5V,.. the results from this thread seem to indicated that not only is it not regulated on an 18650, it also seems to have major problems properly bucking the input power from higher voltage sources correctly as well..

major disappointment IMO.


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## evenchaos (Dec 26, 2008)

mdocod said:


> Wow... in Tiablo's "thread" for this flashlight, they seem to indicate that it is regulated all the way from 2.7-8.5V,.. the results from this thread seem to indicated that not only is it not regulated on an 18650, it also seems to have major problems properly bucking the input power from higher voltage sources correctly as well..
> 
> major disappointment IMO.



Yes, and even right now it still says:


Tiablo said:


> Step up and down constant current driver, with high efficiency dual mode DC-DC regulator (PWM / PFM) and circuit to protect Li-ion battery from over-discharging. Working voltage is 2.75V to 8.5V, under the circuit will flicker to remind users to replace battery.



I don't know how they can keep claiming that its a "high efficiency" regulator, when it clearly is not and it doesn't work properly in that high of a voltage range

Its a very nice flashlight but it doesn't deliver on the specs that were originally advertised. People would be far less upset if it originally said only that it works on a single 18650 i.e 2.7 *to 6V* and delivers only 20k lux. Edit: new tailcap should increase the output so will see, allegedly much closer to original advertised spec.


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## naked2 (Dec 26, 2008)

I just tested mine with 2x black protected AW 18650s; 3.5A @ 8.38V. Next I'm going to try two-cell tests with both 18350s and 18650s at various discharge states to see what, if anything I can determine.

Tony


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## ernsanada (Dec 26, 2008)

TITAN1833 said:


> Thanks for the review,
> 
> Looking at the beam shots I'm surprised the DBS looks that much brighter and throws a brighter beam at all ranges,if your lux reading are anything to go by.
> 
> I guess that's why [email protected] readings alone is not enough to say one throws better than the other IMO




I took some more beam shots which now have inserted into post #1. I took these beam shots to see if shooting the beam a flatter surface will help to see which light throws farther.


Beam shots taken against buildings. At this time distance unknown.


Tiablo A10 Q5 WC







DBS V2 Q5 3S






Tiablo A10 R2 WC






DBS V2 Q5 3S







I edited these beam shots in. They are the longer of two distances shown above. The shots are stepped down in two groups.


Tiablo A10 R2 WC






DBS V2 Q5 3S






Tiablo A10 R2 WC






DBS V2 Q5 3S


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## mdocod (Dec 26, 2008)

People are testing over 3 amps on pairs of li-ion cells... my question is.... 

WHERE IS ALL THE POWER GOING?

Is it being dumped directly the LED, making it deal with the punishment? Is it all being consumed in the driver, some combination of the 2?

Just for the record, 3.5A with a pair of 18650s is like 25 watts, that's a serious amount of heat that would go somewhere, and would translate to runtimes of around 30 minutes. That's more than double the power consumption of a P7 light operating at spec.


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## naked2 (Dec 26, 2008)

I haven't proven it yet, but I think the current might drop back down to around to 1.2A when the voltage gets below a certain point.


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## HKJ (Dec 26, 2008)

naked2;2757480All tests this time were done at the battery said:


> WITHOUT[/B] the tailcap, same as ernsanada.



Why do your leave out part of the circuit?


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## naked2 (Dec 26, 2008)

In my first tests, I didn't. I wanted to see if I got the same results as the OP. Besides, I'll bet the "tactical switch" that Tiablo is sending us will be a standard forward clicky, without a MCU in it.


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## HKJ (Dec 26, 2008)

naked2 said:


> In my first tests, I didn't. I wanted to see if I got the same results as the OP. Besides, I'll bet the "tactical switch" that Tiablo is sending us will be a standard forward clicky, without a MCU in it.



But measuring without part of the circuit is not really a valid, except if your have analyzed the circuit and know that it can be removed without affecting the result.
My guess for the circuit is that pwm control is in the tailcap and driver is in the pill and it looks like your guess is about the same. This will also explain why the pwm is visible at max.

I would like to see the current draw measured with an oscilloscope and at different voltages, but I have not figured out how to connect the wires to the flashlight, without soldering and I do not want to solder on the flashlight.


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## naked2 (Dec 26, 2008)

I just did another test with 2x 18350, still without tailcap. The initial reading on the meter was again 3.5A, dropping slowly and steadily. But when it reached 2.85V (less than 2 minutes), it immediately jumped down to 1.2A. At this time, the two cells total voltage was just under 8V; thus proving my theory that the circuit isn't optimized to run above 8V. 

This is bad news for using this light with 2x 18650, as it will take longer for their larger capacity to drop below 8V, allowing the light to run at the higher amperage for a longer period, possibly damaging it.


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## DM51 (Dec 26, 2008)

Those are good photos in post #35, Ernsanada. To me, the DBS looks noticeably stronger than the A10.


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## evenchaos (Dec 26, 2008)

naked2 said:


> I haven't proven it yet, but I think the current might drop back down to around to 1.2A when the voltage gets below a certain point.



Either way, that is still too high of a current draw for an "_efficient_" power regulator. What is that thing in there, a old-fashioned linear regulator ?

Given a very good regulator with 95% efficiency:
2xRCR123 or 2x18650 should have a nominal current draw of 3W/(0.95*2*3.7V) = _0.427A_

1x18650 should have a nominal current draw of 3W/(0.95*3.7V) = _0.853A_


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## TONY M (Dec 26, 2008)

DM51 said:


> Those are good photos in post #35, Ernsanada. To me, the DBS looks noticeably stronger than the A10.


Yep it sure does.


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## TITAN1833 (Dec 26, 2008)

Thanks Ernsanada your photos in #35 confirms it for me,the DBS clearly throws a brighter beam at distance,making it "still " the king of throw :twothumbs


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## Splunk_Au (Dec 26, 2008)

There might be some irregularities about the lux numbers, this thread shows over 40k!
Can anyone else with the A10 confirm this?


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## naked2 (Dec 26, 2008)

Yes, and Mev at light reviews confirmed my suspicions that the tactical switch is in fact a standard foreward clicky with no extra circuitry in it. I wonder why some are so quick to defend the DBS as "king of throw"?

I can't wait to get my new switch so I can use my new A10 just like I use my A9, as a single mode, blindingly bright light with momentary capability.


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## TITAN1833 (Dec 26, 2008)

naked2 said:


> Yes, and Mev at light reviews confirmed my suspicions that the tactical switch is in fact a standard foreward clicky with no extra circuitry in it. I wonder why some are so quick to defend the DBS as "king of throw".


Sorry but I base my opinion on what I've seen here so far,not elsewhere!!!


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## Stefans (Dec 26, 2008)

naked2 said:


> Yes, and Mev at light reviews confirmed my suspicions that the tactical switch is in fact a standard foreward clicky with no extra circuitry in it. I wonder why some are so quick to defend the DBS as "king of throw".
> 
> I can't wait to get my new switch so I can use my new A10 just like I use my A9, as a single mode, blindingly bright light with momentary capability.


 +1:thumbsup:


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## alohaluau (Dec 26, 2008)

naked2 said:


> Yes, and Mev at light reviews confirmed my suspicions that the tactical switch is in fact a standard foreward clicky with no extra circuitry in it. I wonder why some are so quick to defend the DBS as "king of throw".
> 
> I can't wait to get my new switch so I can use my new A10 just like I use my A9, as a single mode, blindingly bright light with momentary capability.



I have a parcel sitting at the post office waiting for me to pick up just before Christmas, I think its the switch but I have to wait for them to open to find out! :ironic:

Like naked2, I would like my A10 in a single mode, don't mind my A9 in the 2 mode though. :nana:

Cheers,
Luau


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## shahzh (Dec 26, 2008)

Yup, me too! Can't wait for the new switch to arrive .


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## naked2 (Dec 26, 2008)

I don't like have to cycle through an extra click to turn either one of them off. I see no real use for a low setting, let alone programmability, in a light like the A10. I ditched the two stage resistored switch for my A9 in favor of the forward clicky, and look forward to doing the same with the A10. 

I have a couple of lights with a super low, like my Hermes H20 (JetIII M) that I can use when I don't need extreme output. Too bad Tiablo didn't use that same method (loosen head) to switch levels. If they had, even though I'd _personally_ probably never use low or strobe on my A10, It would be nice to know it it's there if I wanted it.

Having said that, if the two stage switch for the A9 was "high/low/off" instead of the reverse, It would probably get more use. On any light of its size/purpose, I *ALWAYS *want high on the first click.


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## TITAN1833 (Dec 26, 2008)

so let me get this straight all the mess and trouble from the start,and your attempts to find a solution boils down to a switch,you were all waiting for in the first place hmmm 


I hope you are all right so people waiting on the side lines,can now go ahead and buy one when they are on sale again.


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## naked2 (Dec 26, 2008)

I hope so too, then I'd probably give the A10 a 9 out of 10. As for Tiablo, to this point, I'd give them a 2, only 'cause they're sending us new switches, otherwise they'd get a 1. Maybe I'd bump it up to a 3 when and if I actually receive the switch!


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## ernsanada (Dec 26, 2008)

naked2 said:


> Yes, and Mev at light reviews confirmed my suspicions that the tactical switch is in fact a standard foreward clicky with no extra circuitry in it. I wonder why some are so quick to defend the DBS as "king of throw"?
> 
> I can't wait to get my new switch so I can use my new A10 just like I use my A9, as a single mode, blindingly bright light with momentary capability.



These are the numbers Mev is getting.

Multi-Mode Switch at 100%
16340: 27, 400 Lux
18650: 26, 100 Lux
CR123: 27, 200 Lux

Single-Mode Switch
16340: 45, 700 Lux
18650: 43, 600 Lux
CR123: 44, 300 Lux



My meter reads lower so I should be getting around these lux numbers with the forward single clickie.
RCR 123's - 27410 lux
18650 - 26100 lux


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## naked2 (Dec 26, 2008)

ernsanada said:


> These are the numbers Mev is getting.
> 
> Multi-Mode Switch at 100%
> 16340: 27, 400 Lux
> ...


That would be compared to your numbers below thet were read with the Multi-Mode switch, correct?


> Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 21300 lux @ 1 meter
> 
> Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 2 RCR123's - 21730 lux @ 1 meter
> 
> Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 - 20,767 lux @ 1 meter


Thanks, Tony


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## alohaluau (Dec 26, 2008)

Sorry if this question sounds a bit noobian (me )...

Apart from the lux output increase, will the tactical switch "fix" the voltage issue as well?

I have many RCR123A (16340?) lying around (for my A9), will the new switch allow use of these batteries with no issues in the A10? Or should I just stick with the 18650?

I guess that question will pop up again when my ACE upgrade arrives...:naughty:

Cheers to all doing the testing! :twothumbs

Luau


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## ernsanada (Dec 26, 2008)

naked2 said:


> That would be compared to your numbers below thet were read with the Multi-Mode switch, correct?Thanks, Tony




Yes you are correct.

I just subtracted the my lux numbers against Mevs numbers to get a rough estimate. I used both our mutimode switch readings.

Only time will tell.


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## WadeF (Dec 26, 2008)

Great review as always Ersanada! You should try and pick up a R2 1SD for the DBS, or even a R2 1SD or 3SD for the CL1H as I think you can get a tighter focus (tighter beam) than you can with the DBS pills. 

Glad I passed on the Tiablo A10, it's just way too big and bulky with no visible difference in throw. If anything the DBS looked better in the distance beam shots, even though the Tiablo looked better on the close up white wall shot. Not sure why that is? 

The Tiablo's larger reflector also appears to be producing a wider beam overall (the spill) so lumens are being lost there.


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## ergotelis (Dec 26, 2008)

ernsanada said:


> These are the numbers Mev is getting.
> 
> Multi-Mode Switch at 100%
> 16340: 27, 400 Lux
> ...



If we are getting so high lux readings, what is the amperage on the emitter? I am afraid it is too high for such a big increase....


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## WadeF (Dec 26, 2008)

ergotelis said:


> If we are getting so high lux readings, what is the amperage on the emitter? I am afraid it is too high for such a big increase....



The Regalight EDC with the Snipe Bezel was getting around 36,000LUX when the emitter was being hit with around 1.7A I believe. So if there is something going funky with the A10 that is similar to the EDC (maybe they use the same driver?) it could be doing the same thing.


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## naked2 (Dec 26, 2008)

But Mev is measuring over 43,000 Lux with a single 18650, and mine only draws 1.15A with this setup, so I don't think it has the problem like Regal.


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## ergotelis (Dec 26, 2008)

OK, but do you find it logical to have such a big increase by changing a switch only? 
Well i am happy i didn't buy the Tiablo A10 yet. When it will be a fine product i might buy it, it looks like all of you are beta testers(but you paid also) for the company.


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## HKJ (Dec 26, 2008)

ergotelis said:


> OK, but do you find it logical to have such a big increase by changing a switch only?



It is not only a switch, look at the picture I posted.
Your will get less resistance from the battery and probably be rid of the pwm. But your are right, it is a big increase.


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## ergotelis (Dec 26, 2008)

HKJ said:


> It is not only a switch, look at the picture I posted.
> Your will get less resistance from the battery and probably be rid of the pwm. But your are right, it is a big increase.



I have read about the switches and the pwm , but, do you find it logical? Tiablo hasn't made any testing on their products? Or you are all as i said something like beta testers? Tiablo wanted to make some money early? Well what they have created is worser. I would like to see the amperage draw with the new switch, even with 18650.

I hope at last that these lux readings from Mev are achieved with logical amp draws and that the only problem was the older switch. But i am afraid it is not like this.


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## TITAN1833 (Dec 26, 2008)

FWIW I know someone with a super DBS pill that can produce over 40,000 lux @1m it was recommended to him however to back it off to 37,000 lux and that is with a R2 emitter,in mevs review I see 46,000 lux yes! this does seem to high for the A10 IMO



[edit]battery draw at 37.000lux was 1.4A


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## HKJ (Dec 26, 2008)

ergotelis said:


> I have read about the switches and the pwm , but, do you find it logical?


I find it quite logical that the multilevel switch has some pwm and that it disappears when using a dumb switch.
The increase in lux is a bit high, and maybe to high to be logical.



ergotelis said:


> Tiablo hasn't made any testing on their products? Or you are all as i said something like beta testers?


We are always beta testers with new products, I have also bought expensive cameras with problems. The question is how good the manufacturer is to fix the problems, and Tiablo has not been the best in that regard.


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## evenchaos (Dec 26, 2008)

naked2 said:


> I have a couple of lights with a super low, like my Hermes H20 (JetIII M) that I can use when I don't need extreme output. Too bad Tiablo didn't use that same method (loosen head) to switch levels. If they had, even though I'd _personally_ probably never use low or strobe on my A10, It would be nice to know it it's there if I wanted it.



It is worse that they advertised that as being offered in the A10 but they did not ship with such a UI nor offer any sort of compensation. :whoopin:


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## divine (Dec 26, 2008)

Ernie, very nice review, thank you for your effort!


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## evenchaos (Dec 26, 2008)

alohaluau said:


> Apart from the lux output increase, will the tactical switch "fix" the voltage issue as well?
> 
> I have many RCR123A (16340?) lying around (for my A9), will the new switch allow use of these batteries with no issues in the A10? Or should I just stick with the 18650?



No, it will make it worse. Without the tailcap, the LED emitter immediately draws more current on fresh cells; with the multimode switch the draw was less.

I am surprised that its a plain switch. I imagined it was a better UI with a forward clicky. :thumbsdow Time will tell when I get my hands on mine, but this is a bit disappointing to hear.

One more thing came to my mind - Tiablo claims to have a step-up driver, but the current measurements do not support this. With a single 18650 I would expect the current draw to increase when the cell voltage decreases, but this is not showing up in my readings - the current draw decreases, same as would be observed with a dumb regulator/plain resistor.


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## naked2 (Dec 26, 2008)

evenchaos said:


> No, it will make it worse. Without the tailcap, the LED emitter immediately draws more current on fresh cells; with the multimode switch the draw was less.


 With a freshly charged pair of RCR123s (8.39V), my light only draws 1.13A at battery without the tailcap. It is only with pairs of higher capacity cells (18350, 18650) that it draws 3.5A, and then it's only for about 2 minutes (for 18350, I didn't run the test long enough on 18650s for the current to drop).



evenchaos said:


> I am surprised that its a plain switch. I imagined it was a better UI with a forward clicky. :thumbsdow Time will tell when I get my hands on mine, but this is a bit disappointing to hear.


I am actually happy that it's a standard forward clicky with momentary capability. 

Besides, I don't think an electronic (MCU) tailswitch can be made with forward momentary capability, otherwise AW would probably made his "soft start" switch that way. It's one thing some who have bought his switches have said they miss.


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## evenchaos (Dec 26, 2008)

naked2 said:


> With a freshly charged pair of RCR123s (8.39V), my light only draws 1.13A at battery without the tailcap. It is only with pairs of higher capacity cells (18350, 18650) that it draws 3.5A, and then it's only for about 2 minutes (for 18350, I didn't run the test long enough on 18650s for the current to drop).


Yeah, but question was in regards to change from multimode tailcap to regular switch tailcap. With the multimode tailcap, even with two 18650's the current draw was much less than measuring without the tailcap. I guess it has to do with PWM regulation, but I still don't get why it kept climbing up in terms of current draw when it initally started at a lower level.



naked2 said:


> I am actually happy that it's a standard forward clicky with momentary capability.


Forward clicky is good, but I would still have liked to seen the rotate to change brightness UI.



naked2 said:


> Besides, I don't think an electronic (MCU) tailswitch can be made with forward momentary capability, otherwise AW would probably made his "soft start" switch that way. It's one thing some who have bought his switches have said they miss.



It can be done - pretty easy actually  but I guess much less profit from that.


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## mdocod (Dec 27, 2008)

Even if it were only drawing 1 amp on a pair of li-ion cells (naked2 reports 1.13A on the smaller cells that are likely sagging enough under a load to prevent it from doing the "3.5A" glitchy thing)., that's still too much for a single R2. 1 amp from a PAIR of li-ion cells translates to almost 8 watts, an R2 driven to ~1.2A would still only be running around 5W, so it sounds like either this A10 is severely overdriving the LED or heating up something else....

Overall something does not feel right about this light... Can anyone take temperature readings of the emitter with one of those laser thermal thingamajigs, compare that to a more normal light that runs ~3-5W to an R2...?

Eric


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## lightforce2 (Dec 29, 2008)

My switch arrived today too. I notice Tiablo included a warning with the switch - Do not use with RCR123a batteries:thinking: however its printed on the light 2.7 - 8.5v. clearly the pwm in the multi mode tailcap helps to control current flow at the higher voltage.

I tested the new switch with 2 x rcr123a LiFePo2 (totaling 6.5v) and current draw was 1.16amps, same as a single 18650, the lifepo2's would have been discharging a little over 1c

why Tiablo didn't use a circuit that could handle up to 10v like the A9 is beyond me:shakehead

I rekon someone will come up with a modified circuit for the A10 pushing 1.2mah to the led & correctly regulated up to 8.4v, thus making this light the brilliant light that it almost is, anyone ??.......


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## ernsanada (Dec 29, 2008)

I just received my battery extension tube. 

No forward switch yet.

The battery tube looks just like the tube shown in the CPFMP Tiablo A10 Thread.

My tube came with a slight "ding" on the edge of the tube that connects to the A10.

The Type III Hard Anodize black color of the extension battery tube is slighty shiner than the rest of the A10.

Once the extension is connected to the A10 the light becomes very long.

I read in the CPFMP Tiablo A10 Thread that this extension tube is made for the MCE but I ran 2RCR's and it seemed like I had no problems. I will just wait to use the extension tube when I get the MCE upgrade.







This side connects to stock A10 battery tube.






This side connects to the rear clickie assembly.






This baby looks huge!
















Size comparison to a Maglite 2D.


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## naked2 (Dec 29, 2008)

I knew this light would look too long with an extension for 2x 18650, I thought one for 2x 18500 would make a better compromise of runtime AND looks. Unfortunately when asked by PM if they would be making one for 2x 18500, Tiablo replied "no". 

I'll settle for using 2x 18350, and hope someone (hopefully AW!) eventually produces either protected 18350s, or IMR 18350s.


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## Ryanrpm (Dec 29, 2008)

That extension tube would look better if they used the aggressive knurling instead of standard cross knurling. It still ends up the same length though, which does look really looong.


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## lightforce2 (Dec 29, 2008)

The reason it looks longer is because it is longer!! But whether the extension is too long or not is a subjective one. 
In terms of looks, I'm not fussed either way, in terms of praticality, my usage requires long runtimes without having to change batteries to often, therefore I like the extension. Problem is we now find out we should'nt be using 2 x 18650 with the R2, but its only for use with the ACE MCE :thumbsdow

cheers.


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## naked2 (Dec 30, 2008)

Mev has his A10 review up at Light-reviews.com!  For all intents and purposes, I think it might be the "DBS Killer", and finally be crowned the new "King of Throw"! :devil:


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## 5.0Trunk (Dec 30, 2008)

naked2 said:


> Mev has his A10 review up at Light-reviews.com!  For all intents and purposes, I think it might be the "DBS Killer", and finally be crowned the new "King of Throw"! :devil:



I don't know. By looking at the the photos in the 1st thread of the Beam shots taken against buildings, the DBS looks to still have it. Thats just my opinion.



ernsanada said:


> Beam shots taken against buildings. At this time distance unknown.
> 
> 
> Tiablo A10 R2 WC
> ...


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## ergotelis (Dec 30, 2008)

King of throw with 24mins in RCR123? This means 8,4V * 1,8amp =15watt...
1:17min in CR123 means 6,4V*1,17amp= 7,5 watt...
No regulation in 18650, but it is the best option because in about 2 hours we should have at least 20000 lux as we read on the review.
Ok it throws further than DBS but with a really tiny hotspot and bad efficiency. 
DBS was not only the best because of its lux readings but in all aspects. If it is our goal to get the highest lux reading and not taking into account other aspects, then DEFT is a better solution.


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## jirik_cz (Dec 30, 2008)

Runtimes really doesn't look very good with 2xCR123 or 2xRCR123. But your calculations are wrong. You should learn something about real capacity of the cells and voltage under load. 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/67078
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/117117


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## ergotelis (Dec 30, 2008)

jirik_cz said:


> Runtimes really doesn't look very good with 2xCR123 or 2xRCR123. But your calculations are wrong. You should learn something about real capacity of the cells and voltage under load.
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/67078
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/117117



i know about the discharge rate and the votage drop, but , i wanted to tell about the total power loss in that period,was i still wrong? If we had lower and logical amp draw, then the batteries would have more juice to provide. An amp draw of the half,0,9amp,might lead to 3 times greater runtime. 1,8amp on a rcr123 is not safe anyway.


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## Stefans (Dec 30, 2008)

5.0Trunk said:


> I don't know. By looking at the the photos in the 1st thread of the Beam shots taken against buildings, the DBS looks to still have it. Thats just my opinion.


Yes sure, but those shots was with the multimode endcap (which measures around 27klux), with the single mode it's been measured to 45klux

Have a bright day...


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## naked2 (Dec 30, 2008)

Also ernsanada will be posting NEW beamshots with the new switch, so we'll have to wait and see. Though the only _real _way to decide for yourself who the true "King of Throw" is, would be to hold both lights in your own hands and compare them. Since I don't own a DBS, and don't see myself buying one any time soon, I'll stick with _my_ opinion that _my _A10 is _my_ "King"! :thumbsup:


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## TITAN1833 (Dec 30, 2008)

Stefans said:


> Yes sure, but those shots was with the multimode endcap (which measures around 27klux), with the single mode it's been measured to 45klux


Yes but as we have seen [email protected] doesn't mean it's the best thrower,the A10 had higher [email protected] than the DBS yet the DBS looked a lot brighter at distance :thinking:

I think we need a comparison shoot out at distances of 200 to 300 meters to get a real idea,my guess is there will not be much in it IMO

[edit]Also my DBS throws a beam some 1200 feet,I have to ask myself how much further do I need to see :laughing:


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## jirik_cz (Dec 30, 2008)

ergotelis said:


> i know about the discharge rate and the votage drop, but , i wanted to tell about the total power loss in that period,was i still wrong? If we had lower and logical amp draw, then the batteries would have more juice to provide. An amp draw of the half,0,9amp,might lead to 3 times greater runtime. 1,8amp on a rcr123 is not safe anyway.



Mev measured 24 minutes with AW RCR123. If we assume that AW RCR123 will deliver only about 500-550mAh capacity under high load. We can say that average power draw in those 24 minutes will be only around 1,3A. At this discharge rate the average voltage will be lower than 3,5V/cell. So we can say that average power draw is around 9W with RCR123. It is still very high and it means that A10 is very inefficient with these batteries. But is not as dramatic as 15W


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## ernsanada (Dec 30, 2008)

5.0Trunk said:


> I don't know. By looking at the the photos in the 1st thread of the Beam shots taken against buildings, the DBS looks to still have it. Thats just my opinion.




Sorry I made an error in the labeling of the DBS beam shot. It should be a DBS V2 Q5 3S not the DBS V2 R2 3S. I thought I caught all my errors earlier but I missed that one.

These are the beam shots, it's the second shot.

Tiablo A10 R2 WC







DBS V2 R2 3S should be DBS V2 Q5 3S


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## ernsanada (Dec 30, 2008)

Before I give you my lux numbers for the forward clickie, BTW they weren't impressive to me.


----------------------------------


I want to show you a jig I bulit to take my lux readings. I made it out of scrape oak plywood. The flashlight sits on two pieces of wood parallel to the flashlight. 

The flashlight is little over 1 meter from the other piece of oak plywood that sits perpendicular to the flashlight. I account for the thickness of my lux meter.






The hot spot of the beam will hit the piece of wood perpendicular to the flashlight. BTW this is a beam shot hot spot of my Olight M20 R2.






It's very easy me to find the hot spot of the beam.

This is how I always take my lux readings. It's very easy and fast to do. Just charge the batteries and off you go.


__________________________________


Left, Single Level Forward Clickie, Right, 2 Level Reverse Clickie






Left, Single Forward Level Clickie, Right, 2 Level Reverse Clickie







__________________________________


These are the lux readings I got. I am using a Meterman LM631 Light Meter measured at 1 meter. I waited 2 minutes before taking the readings. I am using AW's Protected Black 18650's and AW's Protected RCR123's which were fully charged.


These readings are the 2 level reverse clickie.

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 21,300 lux @ 1 meter

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 2 RCR123's - 21,730 lux @ 1 meter

Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 - 20,767 lux @ 1 meter


This is the lux reading of the 1 level forward clickie.

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 22,910 lux @ 1 meter


Not very impressive IMO. My beam shots below tell the story.

All beam shots below used freshly charged AW Protected 18650's. 

The Tiablo A10 R2 WC is using the 1 level forward clickie.


________________________________


Left, Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650, Right, Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 96"






Left, Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650, Right, Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 96" Stepped down exposure






Left, Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650, Right, Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 96" Stepped down exposure. This is the stepped down version of the 2 level reverse clickie.







--------------------------------------

All beam shots below are using the Tiablo single mode forward clickie.


Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 @ 146' or 44.5 meters






Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 146' or 44.5 meters






Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 @ 210' or 64 meters






Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 210' or 64 meters







--------------------------------------


Beam shots taken against buildings. At this time distance unknown.


Tiablo A10 R2 WC






DBS V2 Q5 3S






Tiablo A10 R2 WC Stepped down exposure






DBS V2 Q5 3S Stepped down exposure


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## purplemoon (Dec 31, 2008)

erns,
Love to read your reviews and the beamshots that comes with it.:twothumbs
But this A10 beamshots of yours does not look the same as my A10. Visually, my A10 definitely out-throws the V2-Q5 and the hotspot of the A10 is so much brighter than the V2, even with the 2-click switch and so much more with the 1-click switch.

Your particular A10 might be 'out of sorts'?

Anyone out there with the A10 can confirm?


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## naked2 (Dec 31, 2008)

Mev at Light-reviews has completely different results as erns also. I also wondered if his was "different".


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## lightforce2 (Dec 31, 2008)

purplemoon said:


> erns,
> Love to read your reviews and the beamshots that comes with it.:twothumbs
> But this A10 beamshots of yours does not look the same as my A10. Visually, my A10 definitely out-throws the V2-Q5 and the hotspot of the A10 is so much brighter than the V2, even with the 2-click switch and so much more with the 1-click switch.
> 
> ...


 
Can confirm that my A10 clearly out-throws my A9, DBS 3SD R2 without filter, and UniqueFire HS-802 R2 at distance

BTW  Just completed my first mod, A10 now has 2 stage high/low switch, 1.08A on high and 130Ma on low with a 10 ohm resistor. Hoping this will be a temporary mod till Tiablo bring out the real thing


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## TITAN1833 (Dec 31, 2008)

purplemoon said:


> erns,
> Love to read your reviews and the beamshots that comes with it.:twothumbs
> But this A10 beamshots of yours does not look the same as my A10. Visually, my A10 definitely out-throws the V2-Q5 and the hotspot of the A10 is so much brighter than the V2, even with the 2-click switch and so much more with the 1-click switch.
> 
> ...





naked2 said:


> Mev at Light-reviews has completely different results as erns also. I also wondered if his was "different".





lightforce2 said:


> Can confirm that my A10 clearly out-throws my A9, DBS 3SD R2 without filter, and UniqueFire HS-802 R2 at distance


Come on guys help erns out here post some of your beam shots as words alone are useless without them


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## ernsanada (Dec 31, 2008)

TITAN1833 said:


> Come on guys help erns out here post some of your beam shots as words alone are useless without them



Yes it would help out a lot.

My light must be having some problems.

I did make sure I used Deoxit (red then gold) the contacts. When I was getting almost the same readings as the 2 level switch I used the Deoxit. My lux readings went up 107 lux.

I tried a total of 4 times with 2 different batteries that were fully charged each time.


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## ergotelis (Dec 31, 2008)

Tiablo seems to be a bit morer bright in the distance beamshots but for me it is not usable due to smaller hotspot. Also difference in amperage is not stated and it is a Q5 not a R2 on DBS.
Erns, can you provide some amp readings for DBS and Tiablo?Thanks anyway for your perfect work!


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## WadeF (Dec 31, 2008)

I wonder if Mev got a version that runs hotter than normal. We just had a situation with Regalight sending out pills that were seriously over driving the LED to produce some crazy numbers. Then the fixed pill far under performed the original advertised specs.

Tiablo's A1 also advertised 110 out the front lumens, 180 emitter lumens, but Tiablo lowered the output at the time of release to improve runtime, yet continued to advertise the original specs and some dealer's like batteryjunction are still advertising those false specs that Tiablo provided them with.

Anyone know if Selfbuilt is getting an A10?  We need more test subjects.


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## TITAN1833 (Dec 31, 2008)

WadeF said:


> I wonder if Mev got a version that runs hotter than normal. We just had a situation with Regalight sending out pills that were seriously over driving the LED to produce some crazy numbers. Then the fixed pill far under performed the original advertised specs.
> 
> Tiablo's A1 also advertised 110 out the front lumens, 180 emitter lumens, but Tiablo lowered the output at the time of release to improve runtime, yet continued to advertise the original specs and some dealer's like batteryjunction are still advertising those false specs that Tiablo provided them with.
> 
> Anyone know if Selfbuilt is getting an A10?  We need more test subjects.


I don't think selfbuilt is getting one,but what usually happens in this scenario the DBS walks away with the crown :devil: 
 I maybe wrong though so don't get LOL too loud :tinfoil:


----------



## naked2 (Dec 31, 2008)

TITAN1833 said:


> Come on guys help erns out here post some of your beam shots as words alone are useless without them


Mev only does white wall shots. 


WadeF said:


> I wonder if Mev got a version that runs hotter than normal.





TITAN1833 said:


> ...what usually happens in this scenario the DBS walks away with the crown :devil:
> I maybe wrong though so don't get LOL too loud :tinfoil:


Myself and FlashCrazy (who we all know sells DBS, so I think he can be considered unbiased!) both got the higher current readings on our samples without the tailcap, unlike erns. Mev and FlashCrazy both got higher Lux readings than the DBS on their samples *with the multimode switch *, and they were only *60%* of Mev's Lux reading with the forward clicky. lightforce2 also reports (visually) his sample has higher output with the forward clicky than the DBS *R2*. 

So *four* are reporting higher output with the forward switch, and only *one* reports the same output. My conclusion would not be that Mev got a "hot" one, but rather that erns got a "dud". 



WadeF said:


> Anyone know if Selfbuilt is getting an A10?  We need more test subjects.


I agree. We should also ask FlashCrazy if he's received his new switch yet, and if he has, for some new Lux readings.


----------



## evenchaos (Dec 31, 2008)

naked2 said:


> Mev only does white wall shots.
> Myself and FlashCrazy (who we all know sells DBS, so I think he can be considered unbiased!) both got the higher current readings on our samples without the tailcap, unlike erns. Mev and FlashCrazy both got higher Lux readings than the DBS on their samples *with the multimode switch *, and they were only *60%* of Mev's Lux reading with the forward clicky. lightforce2 also reports (visually) his sample has higher output with the forward clicky than the DBS *R2*.
> 
> So *four* are reporting higher output with the forward switch, and only *one* reports the same output. My conclusion would not be that Mev got a "hot" one, but rather that erns got a "dud".




Make that *five*. I also measured significantly greater current readings (thats 2W vs 3W+ power draw) without the multimode tailcap.


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## TITAN1833 (Dec 31, 2008)

Hmm:thinking: I was thinking more the guys that report much brighter beam shots at distance to post "beam shots",ah well I guess I'll have to wait for Ern's to get a new pill then 


[edit]Oh and I'll say again lux readings mean nothing @1m for throw.At least do the reading @30m.

Just take the DBS MC-E V DBS Q5 OR R2and A10 R2 what has the higher [email protected]?,answer the MCE most likely,now take them for a walk! say 100m and report back!!! just my 0.2 cents worth.


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## WadeF (Dec 31, 2008)

Titan, the MC-E won't have a higher LUX value than the XR-E, it will be lower. LUX isn't lumens.


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## TITAN1833 (Dec 31, 2008)

WadeF said:


> Titan, the MC-E won't have a higher LUX value than the XR-E, it will be lower. LUX isn't lumens.


Not even at one meter? this is very confusing :thinking: so! 225 lumens v's 500 lumens means [email protected] 1m?


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## WadeF (Dec 31, 2008)

LUX is how bright the area being measured is. If you take 225 highly focused lumens they can be brighter than 500 lowly focused lumens. It's all about how they are focused, projected, etc.

The MC-E has more total light output, but it is not as focused. 

Also the MC-E's dies aren't driven as hard as a single die in a XR-E. So the single die in a XR-E will be brighter than any of the individual dies in a MC-E. 

Now if someone could design an optic, reflector, etc, that gathered all the light of the MC-E and was able to focus is the same as the XR-E in a DBS, then you may have something.


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## TITAN1833 (Dec 31, 2008)

WadeF said:


> LUX is how bright the area being measured is. If you take 225 highly focused lumens they can be brighter than 500 lowly focused lumens. It's all about how they are focused, projected, etc.
> 
> The MC-E has more total light output, but it is not as focused.
> 
> ...


ok I got it,good job I have a DBS then :twothumbs


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## naked2 (Dec 31, 2008)

TITAN1833 said:


> ok I got it,good job I have a DBS then :twothumbs


?


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## ergotelis (Jan 1, 2009)

naked2 said:


> Mev only does white wall shots.
> Myself and FlashCrazy (who we all know sells DBS, so I think he can be considered unbiased!) both got the higher current readings on our samples without the tailcap, unlike erns. Mev and FlashCrazy both got higher Lux readings than the DBS on their samples *with the multimode switch *, and they were only *60%* of Mev's Lux reading with the forward clicky. lightforce2 also reports (visually) his sample has higher output with the forward clicky than the DBS *R2*.
> 
> So *four* are reporting higher output with the forward switch, and only *one* reports the same output. My conclusion would not be that Mev got a "hot" one, but rather that erns got a "dud".
> ...



4 guys saying the same thing, only one saying the opposite. BUT this only one guy gave to us some usefull beamshots! All others just words... Not wanting to tell that you have any purpose or what you say is wrong, but at least when saying something you have to prove it with some more information. And not only 1m white wall readings and beamshots. Outdoor beamshots like ernasada did. Of course you may not be able to do it, but if it is true, there should be found someone to do it. Else the only proven information posted is the one from ernasada.


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## Splunk_Au (Jan 1, 2009)

ernsanada said:


> It's very easy me to find the hot spot of the beam.
> 
> This is how I always take my lux readings. It's very easy and fast to do. Just charge the batteries and off you go.


 
Don't forget that the fixed position on which your lights sits may not always be the best. The brightest point of the hotspot, especially in throwers like these, are long the edge. While others like those using optics, may be directly in the middle.


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## Splunk_Au (Jan 1, 2009)

ergotelis said:


> 4 guys saying the same thing, only one saying the opposite. BUT this only one guy gave to us some usefull beamshots! All others just words...


 
Are you sure about that?
Mev did a full review with words, beamshots AND runtimes.
And looking at the longer runtimes with the multimode vs single mode switch, it further backs up the findings.


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## naked2 (Jan 1, 2009)

ergotelis said:


> 4 guys saying the same thing, only one saying the opposite. BUT this only one guy gave to us some usefull beamshots! All others just words...


Maybe you missed _these words,_ form the _one guy:_


ernsanada said:


> My light must be having some problems.


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## ace0001a (Jan 1, 2009)

Ok, lets look at it from another standpoint: If the output difference is so little between the multi-mode switch and single-mode forward clickie (as it is in erns' post), it would be fair to say that most people would not be able to see the difference just by looking at it. While I don't have any beamshots or even a good camera, I swapped my tailcaps around several times and shined my A10 against my walls, around my house, outdoors and I can see an obvious brightness difference. Erns got around a 7% increase in brightness when he went from his multi-mode switch to his single-mode one, which I am sure would not be noticeable just by looking at it.

I now really believe that with complex multi-mode switches, you will always take a hit in total capable output. This isn't the first time we've run into an issue like this. I do recall the same situation with the NiteIze IQ multi-mode aftermarket tailswitch for MiniMags with people/reviewers saying that even when it was set at 100% output, that it wasn't as bright as a good single mode switch or the stock tailcap. Perhaps it's because the multi-mode circuit uses a small amount of power to run the switch and that's why it effects total capable output...that would be my guess.

I for one would just prefer that Tiablo also offered a simple 2-stage switch module that works the same as the one in their A9 flashlight. So far, I don't recall ever reading any complaints about 2-stage tailswitches as far as total ouput issues are concerned.


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## lightforce2 (Jan 1, 2009)

ergotelis said:


> 4 guys saying the same thing, only one saying the opposite. BUT this only one guy gave to us some usefull beamshots! All others just words...


Mr. ergotelis, I stated the visual difference between my A10, A9, DBS as I see it at long range, I haven't any problem with this. Myself & another colleague use these throwers in a professional capacity, have no involvement or favouritism with any manufacturer. We use our lights according to the conditions we're in ie; dense vegetation - use A9 because its focusable to a wide beam, DBS isn't etc. DBS gets attached to rifle.



ergotelis said:


> Not wanting to tell that you have any purpose or what you say is wrong.


I think thats what you have inferred:thumbsdow.



ergotelis said:


> but at least when saying something you have to prove it with some more information.


Are you suggesting those of us that don't have a digital camera capable of accurate & quality beamshots should refrain from stating on this forum our observations or thoughts? I haven't a suitable camera BTW, how about you come around to my place so you can see for yourself

pitty there's so much negativity on this thread, its turned into a bit of a "mine's bigger than your's" discusion:ironic:

Next week we'll be starting another pest program (weather permitting), I'll get my colleague's opinion on the A10

cheers


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## lightforce2 (Jan 1, 2009)

ace0001a said:


> I for one would just prefer that Tiablo also offered a simple 2-stage switch module that works the same as the one in their A9 flashlight. So far, I don't recall ever reading any complaints about 2-stage tailswitches as far as total ouput issues are concerned.


 
Me too!!. I couldn't wait for Tiablo to come up with a high/low clickie:shakehead I've found a way to fit a spare A9 switch, works perfectly!! however it's not rigidly fixed into the tailcap so I'm puting the batteries in from the front end of the battery tube (led module). I'll leave it like this untill Tiablo come up with a genuine switch


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## TITAN1833 (Jan 1, 2009)

naked2 said:


> ?


Answer in relation to a question,my DBS being highly tuned and tightly focused that's all :thumbsup:
but this thread is about the A10 so I will keep my opinions to myself in future "sorry guys" but I think what is stirring up a throw wars is the lack of real outdoor distance shots of the A10 Ern's is the only one so far who has,I'm hoping in the end the A10 is as you say and consistently so. After all that's why you purchased it in the first place based on 40'[email protected] good luck guys and a happy new year to all


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## Flic (Jan 1, 2009)

lightforce2 said:


> Me too!!. I couldn't wait for Tiablo to come up with a high/low clickie:shakehead I've found a way to fit a spare A9 switch, works perfectly!! however it's not rigidly fixed into the tailcap so I'm puting the batteries in from the front end of the battery tube (led module). I'll leave it like this untill Tiablo come up with a genuine switch



I'd be okay with the multi-stage switch IF it did not reduce output!


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## ergotelis (Jan 1, 2009)

I didn't want to insult someone come on guys don't put on me words that i didn't say for gods sake. Please be serious.
Mev didn't make any straight comparison. I said also that i understand that most people might not be able to make beamshots. I am suspecting that it would be a better thrower but i haven't seen anything with straight long range comparison beamshot proving that.Except erns,who is showing the opposite but he might be having some problems with his sample. Right&Clear?
Also, of course i would like to come and test them side to side and a lot other throwers i have but i am about half earth way away from you! 
I always want to see something better, i am no way of the idea that mine is better and yours is worser than me etc. I didn't express any negativity i am hoping that Tiablo has a great product, it is a pity to spend 130 dollars and get junk. I already have the RX-1 which seems under circumstances to throw better than DBS. 



lightforce2 said:


> Me too!!. I couldn't wait for Tiablo to come up with a high/low clickie:shakehead I've found a way to fit a spare A9 switch, works perfectly!! however it's not rigidly fixed into the tailcap so I'm puting the batteries in from the front end of the battery tube (led module). I'll leave it like this untill Tiablo come up with a genuine switch



You have to take into account that a lot of Tiablo A9/A8 switches failed. A lot of people in here have written about that. I don't know under which circumstances that happens,for me it happened when i modded the A8 and the amperage went up to 1,4amp. The switch almost immediately died. So, it might not be the ideal switch. I think that i can not handle that much of current. Have you measured your amp readings?


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## Stereodude (Jan 1, 2009)

naked2 said:


> But Mev is measuring over 43,000 Lux with a single 18650, and mine only draws 1.15A with this setup, so I don't think it has the problem like Regal.


And you know Mev's only draws 1.15A how? :thinking:


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## naked2 (Jan 1, 2009)

Flic said:


> I'd be okay with the multi-stage switch IF it did not reduce output!


I'm not sure, maybe Tiablo can confirm, or someone could do a test, but I think the multimode switch drains the batteries when not in use and not locked out. If you notice, on insertion of new batteries, when the tailcap is screwed all the way down, there is a brief flash. I believe this is the MCU powering up, and as long as it's not locked out, it's drawing power. Plus it loses its settings *every time *you loosen it. :shakehead

This won't be a problem any longer for me, as I've just tossed mine into my pile of spare parts; yes I've received my new switch just yesterday!  And in my "useless without beamshots, only words" opinion (just kidding! ), the A10 is noticably brighter! :twothumbs And I surely don't miss having to click it twice to turn it off!

Of course I don't own any light metering equipment, nor do I have the equipment or know how to produce outdoor beamshots (or want to learn any time soon!) That's why I defer to fine people like erns, Mev, selfbuilt, and others for their expertise. Thank you erns, for all the work you do; it's *highly *appreciated! :thumbsup:

BTW, I read in another thread that MrGman is waiting on an A10 and plans to give it a thorough testing!


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## TITAN1833 (Jan 1, 2009)

naked2 said:


> BTW, I read in another thread that MrGman is waiting on an A10 and plans to give it a thorough testing!


Isn't his tests just about lumens? which is not in doubt here :shrug:


[edit]Just a thought here is it possible to get 46,[email protected] from 1.15A? I ask because on my DBS when the Amps drop so does the lux it starts at 1.3 or 1.4 A. lux about 30,[email protected] when I tested it awhile back so I'm confused as to where Mev gets 46,000 lux from 1.15A :thinking:


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## naked2 (Jan 1, 2009)

Stereodude said:


> And you know Mev's only draws 1.15A how? :thinking:


I never stated *Mev's *current readings at all, but I could ask him if you'd like!


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## naked2 (Jan 1, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> Isn't his tests just about lumens? which is not in doubt here :shrug:


I not sure _what _MrGman's test will include, but I look forward to his findings no matter what they're about!


MrGman said:


> My A10 R2 is on order. It will be thoroughly tested.


*From a different thread.


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## TITAN1833 (Jan 1, 2009)

naked2 said:


> I never stated *Mev's *current readings at all, but I could ask him if you'd like!


I think stereodude was reffering to your statement in post 62 where you mention 1.15A :twothumbs


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## WadeF (Jan 1, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> [edit]Just a thought here is it possible to get 46,[email protected] from 1.15A? I ask because on my DBS when the Amps drop so does the lux it starts at 1.3 or 1.4 A. lux about 30,[email protected] when I tested it awhile back so I'm confused as to where Mev gets 46,000 lux from 1.15A :thinking:



If the larger reflector of the A10 can focus more of the light into a smaller and tighter spot it is certainly possible. Although lux meters vary and Mev's seems to read higher than most. I have two lux meters and one reads very low compared to what other people find, and another is about avg with what people find with their lights. Mev's is higher than bother of my meters when I've compared the same models of lights. So if he gets 46,000LUX with the Tiablo A10, if I took his A10 and tested it on my meter I would expect to see something right around 40,000LUX. I get around 28,000lux with my DBS. My DBS on his meter would probably read around 32,000lux.


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## TITAN1833 (Jan 1, 2009)

WadeF said:


> If the larger reflector of the A10 can focus more of the light into a smaller and tighter spot it is certainly possible. Although lux meters vary and Mev's seems to read higher than most. I have two lux meters and one reads very low compared to what other people find, and another is about avg with what people find with their lights. Mev's is higher than bother of my meters when I've compared the same models of lights. So if he gets 46,000LUX with the Tiablo A10, if I took his A10 and tested it on my meter I would expect to see something right around 40,000LUX. I get around 28,000lux with my DBS. My DBS on his meter would probably read around 32,000lux.


Thanks WadeF yes it does seem these meters vary a great deal I had a cheap one from DX my DBS spoke 37,000 [email protected] on that but I always doubted it,that's why I say now about 30,000 [email protected] but I guess it would most likely be nearer your figure of 28,000.


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## MrGman (Jan 1, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> Isn't his tests just about lumens? which is not in doubt here :shrug:
> 
> 
> [edit]Just a thought here is it possible to get 46,[email protected] from 1.15A? I ask because on my DBS when the Amps drop so does the lux it starts at 1.3 or 1.4 A. lux about 30,[email protected] when I tested it awhile back so I'm confused as to where Mev gets 46,000 lux from 1.15A :thinking:


 

Yes, normally my tests are just about lumens but I just happen to know WBP who has that wonderful $9,000 plus spectral radiometer that can measure lux very accurately. He has the DBS V2 XXXX whatever its called thrower and the Raidfire Spear thrower that I can compare mine to. I am quite certain he will want to see my new A10 R2 when it comes in and compare it to those and get some quick 1 meter lux readings and some long distance beam shot comparisons as well. The winter rains are upon us and getting long distance beam shot photos may be a problem, but at least we should be able to get some side by side comparisons with 2 pair of eyeballs judging the beams. 

I have already compared for example my Malkoff single drop in for the Mag 3C flashlight to the DBS and the Spear. Although the Malkoff unit is nice, both the DBS and Spear Throwers had better beams at distances past 30 feet. Less than 30 feet of course its just too hard to call. 

I have a really nice new digital camera but I am not going to take photos in the rain of tree tops. I want to shoot photos of my people style "targets" that I have used in previous posts about beam patterns at 50 to 100 yards. So the good beamshot photos if they do happen will probably have to wait for a while. 

But the initial report may be possible within 2 weeks. I got to email WBP when I get my newest torch.


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## TITAN1833 (Jan 1, 2009)

MrGman said:


> Yes, normally my tests are just about lumens but I just happen to know WBP who has that wonderful $9,000 plus spectral radiometer that can measure lux very accurately. He has the DBS V2 XXXX whatever its called thrower and the Raidfire Spear thrower that I can compare mine to. I am quite certain he will want to see my new A10 R2 when it comes in and compare it to those and get some quick 1 meter lux readings and some long distance beam shot comparisons as well. The winter rains are upon us and getting long distance beam shot photos may be a problem, but at least we should be able to get some side by side comparisons with 2 pair of eyeballs judging the beams.
> 
> I have already compared for example my Malkoff single drop in for the Mag 3C flashlight to the DBS and the Spear. Although the Malkoff unit is nice, both the DBS and Spear Throwers had better beams at distances past 30 feet. Less than 30 feet of course its just too hard to call.
> 
> ...


Fantastic I can't wait to see your comparison tests in that case,it will be heart warming to know we wont have to rely on [email protected] readings alone as I find them not very helpful IMO. I will certainly follow your threads from now on :twothumbs


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## Stereodude (Jan 1, 2009)

naked2 said:


> I never stated *Mev's *current readings at all, but I could ask him if you'd like!


No you didn't, but you certainly implied that the A10 gets >43,000 lux off 1.15A because Mev measured >43,000 lux and you measured 1.15A current.


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## naked2 (Jan 1, 2009)

I _implied_ no such thing! If that's what you read, then that's on you. I made that post based on the conclusion of my own deductive reasoning, as I'll repeat, *I have no light metering equipment!* But now I will ask Mev if he can take a current reading.


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## TITAN1833 (Jan 1, 2009)

naked2 said:


> I _implied_ no such thing! If that's what you read, then that's on you. I made that post based on the conclusion of my own deductive reasoning, as I'll repeat, *I have no light metering equipment!* But now I will ask Mev if he can take a current reading.


Well then I quote you from post 62 you said: 
But Mev is measuring over 43,000 Lux with a single 18650, and mine only draws 1.15A with this setup, so I don't think it has the problem like Regal.


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## lightforce2 (Jan 1, 2009)

ergotelis said:


> Also, of course i would like to come and test them side to side and a lot other throwers i have but i am about half earth way away from you!


 thats why I suggested it 




ergotelis said:


> You have to take into account that a lot of Tiablo A9/A8 switches failed. A lot of people in here have written about that. I don't know under which circumstances that happens,for me it happened when i modded the A8 and the amperage went up to 1,4amp. The switch almost immediately died. So, it might not be the ideal switch. I think that i can not handle that much of current. Have you measured your amp readings?


Same here - I upgraded 2 A9 switches with a higher rated clickie, works well to date however the only dislike is its cofiguration being 'on-off-on-off instead of on-on-off

My amperage tests are around 1.16 on a full 18650, also the same on 2 x LiFePo4's (6.6 open Voltage) Amperage rises on 2 full 18650 li-ion's

Next week my A10 will get some long runtime usage & there will be 2 DBS's along side it, i expect whilst it will start above the DBS on a full 18650 it will drop below as voltage begins to decline. 
If this happens then my irrisistable urge to modify will kick in, & I'm already thinking - there's plenty of room for a threaded sleeve to be pressed into the A10 led/circuit module, just imagine a 3SD R2 sitting in there (only prob, slight machining needed on the Derelight pill), still thinking


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## naked2 (Jan 1, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> Well then I quote you from post 62 you said:
> But Mev is measuring over 43,000 Lux with a single 18650, and mine only draws 1.15A with this setup, so I don't think it has the problem like Regal.


I still don't see your point, you're splittig hairs and reading into it what you want! I only made an *assumption, *and Stereodude first replied as if I had stated a *fact*, as quoted below (*66* posts later, I might add!):


Stereodude said:


> And you *know* Mev's only draws 1.15A how? :thinking:


Then after I defended what I had posted, he changd his tune from "know" to "*imply*", and you keep defending him; why? 

What would you have me do, edit post #62? Will that make you happy?

Edit: How 'bout we agree to disagree, and keep any more debating out of the forum, so as to keep ern's fine review thread from being closed!


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## ernsanada (Jan 1, 2009)

Another light I just received to see which one is the "King of Throw".

Dorcy Rechargeable XRE Cree.

Left to right, Dorcy Rechargeable Cree XRE, Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, Tiablo A10 R2 WC







Left to right, Dorcy Rechargeable Cree XRE, Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, Tiablo A10 R2 WC








Dorcy Rechargeable Cree XRE - 22,050 lux @ 1 meter

Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 - 20,767 lux @ 1 meter

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 21300 lux @ 1 meter

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 2 RCR123's - 21730 lux @ 1 meter


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## ergotelis (Jan 1, 2009)

Amazing this thing came out of nowhere and throws the same! Do we know the bin of the led and the dimensions of the battery?Thanks!


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## alohaluau (Jan 1, 2009)

Not trying to steal/deviate from ernsanada's excellent review (as usual) thread, but it looks like Mev has completed his review here:

http://www.light-reviews.com/tiablo_a10/

Cheers,
Luau
p.s. Is it ok to post a link from another site? If not please remove, thanks moderator.


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## TITAN1833 (Jan 1, 2009)

Hey Ern's to make it more fun do you have the sunlite eagle 8w?:naughty:


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## ernsanada (Jan 1, 2009)

ergotelis said:


> Amazing this thing came out of nowhere and throws the same! Do we know the bin of the led and the dimensions of the battery?Thanks!



Don't know what bin of Cree.

Battery is 112.85mm long. 17.35mm wide.


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## ernsanada (Jan 1, 2009)

alohaluau said:


> Not trying to steal/deviate from ernsanada's excellent review (as usual) thread, but it looks like Mev has completed his review here:
> 
> http://www.light-reviews.com/tiablo_a10/
> 
> ...



No problem.

Any link to another review is OK with me.


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## Stereodude (Jan 1, 2009)

naked2 said:


> I _implied_ no such thing! If that's what you read, then that's on you.


Yes you did, and you go on to admit it in the next part of your quote.


> I made that post based on the conclusion of my own deductive reasoning...


So you made a conclusion by your own deductive reason. I made a conclusion by my deductive reason that you believe the A10 delivers >43,000lux via 1.15A of current. You subsequently have confirmed this belief, but yet you claim I'm all wet.


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## naked2 (Jan 1, 2009)




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## naked2 (Jan 1, 2009)

What the hell happened, erns? First Tiablo's reply was there, followed by someone elses, then it was gone, now you quoted it. :thinking:


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## DKTVPN (Jan 1, 2009)

I don't know what I did wrong but my post asking about new LED module infos for A10 is gone? And the post from Tiablo also disappeared?


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## naked2 (Jan 1, 2009)

OK, this is TOO wierd! Are we in the "Twilight Zone"?


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## DKTVPN (Jan 1, 2009)

DKTVPN said:


> I don't know what I did wrong but my post asking about new LED module infos for A10 is gone? And the post from Tiablo also disappeared?




And now the post from Ern with Quote doesn't exist?


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## ernsanada (Jan 1, 2009)

The post Tiablo posted above mine disappeared. Then my reply post disappeard. I had to go back in my browser to see it again then I had to submit the reply to make it show.

I thought I imagined the 2 posts.


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## Unforgiven (Jan 1, 2009)

ernsanada, check your PM

Dealer promos of any kind are not permitted on CPF. When found, they along with any replies are removed.


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## naked2 (Jan 1, 2009)

ernsanada said:


> My light must be having some problems.


So would it be safe to ask: erns, are you going to update your review/Lux measurements/beamshots if you are able to get a replacement A10 module?


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## richardcpf (Jan 2, 2009)

The Dorcy flashlight would heve been perfect with a alu smo relfector, mag ucl lens, orings at the charging port and different battery. 4.8V 700ma at the size of 2 AA doesnt look too good.


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## ernsanada (Jan 2, 2009)

naked2 said:


> So would it be safe to ask: erns, are you going to update your review/Lux measurements/beamshots if you are able to get a replacement A10 module?



Yes I will redo the lux measurements and beam shots once the replacement A10 module arrives.


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## ernsanada (Jan 2, 2009)

ergotelis said:


> Amazing this thing came out of nowhere and throws the same! Do we know the bin of the led and the dimensions of the battery?Thanks!



The Bin of the Cree is a Q4. See this post

From this thread I did not know existed until today. dorcy 220 lumen


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## ernsanada (Jan 12, 2009)

I just received my replacement A10 R2 module. My lux numbers are much higher. The original module must have been an under performing R2 module. I will post the results soon.

I also received the ACE MCE. I haven't had time to do lux numbers.

I checked the fit and eveything is OK.

I will do a comparison of some beam shots of the Tiablo ACE MCE vs the Lumapower DX1 P7. Both lights use 2 18650's.


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## ernsanada (Jan 12, 2009)

I just received the Tiablo ACE MCE module.

The fit is excellent. No problems with the threads. I give the grade A.

The Type III Hard Anodize black finish is excellent. I give the grade A.

The beam color is very white. I do notice the + in it's hot spot at longer distances. At about 2 feet while white wall hunting the + isn't very noticeable because the beam is so bright it "floods" out the + in the hot spot. When you start to get the light in closer than the 2 feet you can really start to see the + in the hot spot.

The MCE is very similiar to a P7 beam. It's very floody and it's hard even with an OP reflector to get out the + in the beam. I have this problem with a modded Maglite 2D P7 SMO B Bin that holds 3C batteries built by Wayne from ElektroLumens. I guess it's not bad for a light using a SMO reflector. The only P7 light that I have does a good job of no + in the hot spot is my Lumapower DX1 P7 C Bin.

I do know that results of the beam, hot spots, holes in the beam and brightness will vary with each light each somebody purchases.


The Tiablo ACE MCE came shipped in this box.












The ACE module.





















Rear view of the MCE module.
















Received another extension tube.






At least it doesn't say "Strong Light".






Left, ACE MCE reflector, Right, A10 R2 reflector






Left, ACE MCE reflector, Right, A10 R2 reflector (The MCE reflector has a smaller opening). ACE Reflector diameter for MCE 6.92mm. A10 Reflector diameter for R2 6.96mm.







-----------------------------------------


Size comparisons.

Left, Tiablo ACE MCE, Right Lumapower DX1 P7






Left, Tiablo ACE MCE, Right Lumapower DX1 P7






Tiablo ACE MCE











Lumapower DX1 P7












_____________________________________



These are the lux readings I got. I am using a Meterman LM631 Light Meter measured at 1 meter. I waited 2 minutes before taking the readings. I am using AW's Protected Black 18650's.

Both light use 2 Protected 18650's.


Tiablo ACE MCE - 15,920 lux @ 1 meter

Lumapower DX1 P7 C Bin- 7940 Lux @ 1 meter


__________________________________



Tiablo ACE MCE @ 96"






Lumapower DX1 P7 @ 96"






Left, Tiablo ACE MCE, Right, Lumapower DX1 P7 @ 96"






Left, Tiablo ACE MCE, Right, Lumapower DX1 P7 @ 96" Stepped down exposure







Tiablo ACE MCE @ 32'






Lumapower DX1 P7 @ 32'






Tiablo ACE MCE @ 32' Stepped down exposure






Lumapower DX1 P7 @ 32' Stepped down exposure


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## ernsanada (Jan 12, 2009)

I have revised lux numbers for the replacement A10 R2 module. The first module wasn't getting the lux numbers it should have been getting.

These are the lux readings I got. I am using a Meterman LM631 Light Meter measured at 1 meter. I waited 2 minutes before taking the readings. I am using AW's Protected Black 18650's and AW's Protected RCR123's which were fully charged.


These lux numbers are from my original module that came with the light.


Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 21,300 lux @ 1 meter (2 level switch)

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 22,910 lux @ 1 meter (1 level switch)

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 2 RCR123's - 21730 lux @ 1 meter

Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 - 20,767 lux @ 1 meter


--------------------------------------


The revised numbers.

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 24,317 lux @ 1 meter (2 level switch)

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 27,115 lux @ 1 meter (1 level switch)


(1 level switch) an increase of 4,205 lux from original module.

(2 level switch) an increase of 3,017 lux from original module.


-----------------------------------------


I have taken some beam shots of the Tiablo A10 R2 vs the Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S but I don't think it's a fair comparision. 

Today I ordered a DBS R2 1S from Flashcrazy and I will redo the beam shots and lux numbers later in the week. 


____________________________________


Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 @ 146' or 44.5 meters






Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 146' or 44.5 meters






Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 @ 210' or 64 meters






Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 @ 210' or 64 meters







----------------------------------------


Note: I will be getting a DBS R2 1S from Flashcrazy and I will redo the beam shots and lux numbers later in the week.

This match up should really tell which light in my collection will be crowned the "King of Throw" at this present time.


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## Ryanrpm (Jan 13, 2009)

Nice pictures ernsanada!

Does the MC-E look off center in the ACE reflector? And the MC-E seems to be brighter along with a better focus than the P7.

I will await your review with the DBS R2.


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## andysou (Jan 13, 2009)

The hot spot of ACE MCE module should be the most excellent one I have ever seen before (MCE or P7). Good job ernsanada!!


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## ichoderso (Jan 13, 2009)

Hi Ernsanada, thank you for this new beamshots and results!

Can you measure the current (from tailcap with clicky swittch) from your new A10 and the ACE Module with different voltage (one fresh 18650 and two fresh 16340 or two 18650 Cells??

And how is the runtime from the ACE with one 18650 cell.
I have read in the german forum, that the runtime is very short (less than 30 minutes. I think, this si because the overdisharge protection at 3,7 Volt, this is to high, because the voltage under load from a 18650 cell drops under this voltage after a short time....

Jens


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## ergotelis (Jan 13, 2009)

Nice review again! Tiablo ACE is very nice, excellent numbers! Can you do some amp draw tests for that?
ALso, the new pill outthrows DBS. We can see it clearly. But can you do again some amp draw tests in both DBS and Tiablo?
It might be boring and tiring but we can get very helpful conclusions from that! Thanks again!:wave:


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## ernsanada (Jan 15, 2009)

These are revised readings with a new R2 WC module

I just took a lux reading with the Tiablo A10 R2 WC using 2 AW's Protected RCR123's.


Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 2 AW Protected RCR123's - 30,109 lux @ 1 meter


Previous lux readings with the new R2 WC module.

The revised numbers.

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 24,317 lux @ 1 meter (2 level switch)

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 27,115 lux @ 1 meter (1 level switch)


(1 level switch) an increase of 4,205 lux from original module. 1 AW Protected 18650

(1 level switch) an increase of 8,379 lux from original module. 2 AW Protected RCR123's

(2 level switch) an increase of 3,017 lux from original module. 1 AW Protected 18650


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## ernsanada (Jan 15, 2009)

I just received a Dereelight R2 1S WC and a Dereelight R2 1S WH pill from FlashCrazy.

I took 2 separate lux readings lux readings of each R2 pill to make sure the lux numbers weren't different. I did that because I did not get a higher reading than I thought I would. 

I had a R2 WH 3SM pill from before and I got higher readings but the pill does not reach that high lux number anymore. Alan from Dereelight sent me another board but I never got around to installing it. The reason I never installed it was that pill had a green tint to it's beam. The lux reading was in the 21,000+ range. I think it was a little higher than the new R2 pill. I like the the tint of new R2 pill, much more yellow.

My lux readings are.


Dereelight DBS V2 R2 1S WC, 18650 - 20,001 lux @ 1 meter

Dereelight DBS V2 R2 1S WH, 18650 - 21,500 lux @ 1 meter

Dereelight DBS V2 Q5 3S, 18650 - 20,767 lux @ 1 meter


Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 27,115 lux @ 1 meter (1 level switch)



I have taken some out door beam shots with the Tiablo A10 R2 WC vs the Dereelight DBS V2 R2 1S WH. I choose the DBS V2 R2 1S WH because I got higher lux readings than the Dereelight DBS V2 R2 1S WC.

The Dereelight DBS V2 R2 1S WH has a much warmer tint (yellow) than the Tiablo A10 R2 WC (whiter). 

I only got an increase of 737 lux with the DBS V2 R2 1S WH vs the DBS V2 Q5 3S. I was hoping the lux number would be higher with the DBS R2's. 

The DBS V2 R2 1S WH and the DBS V2 R2 1S WC will only work with an input voltage of 2.8V - 4.2V, so you can only run a single 18650. Output Range: 1.2A.


Tiablo A10 R2 WC @ 96"






Dereelight DBS V2 R2 1S WH @ 96"






Left, Tiablo A10 R2 WC, Right, Dereelight DBS V2 R2 1S WH @ 96"






Left, Tiablo A10 R2 WC, Right, Dereelight DBS V2 R2 1S WH @ 96" Stepped down exposure






Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 @ 146' or 44.5 meters






Dereelight DBS V2 R2 1S WH @ 146' or 44.5 meters






Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 @ 210' or 64 meters






Dereelight DBS V2 R2 1S WH @ 210' or 64 meters


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## YourTime (Jan 15, 2009)

How much throw can you get for the SSC P7?

Im not sure if i should get Tiablo ACE or JETbeam M1x. Jetbeam M1x claim they can throw 500m + with P7. I know most manufacture exaggerate alot so i want to know it before making any commitment.


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## ernsanada (Jan 16, 2009)

This is a comparsion of the Tiablo ACE MCE and the Lumapower DX1 P7. Both lights are using OP reflectors and 2 Protected 18650 batteries.


Left, Tiablo ACE MCE, Right, Lumapower DX1 P7






Left, Tiablo ACE MCE, Right, Lumapower DX1 P7






Tiablo ACE MCE






Lumapower DX1 P7







Tiablo ACE MCE @ 146' or 44.5 meters






Lumapower DX1 P7 @ 146' or 44.5 meters






Tiablo ACE MCE @ 210' or 64 meters






Lumapower DX1 P7 @ 210' or 64 meters


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## ernsanada (Jan 16, 2009)

Tiablo ACE MCE @ 146' or 44.5 meters






Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 @ 146' or 44.5 meters






Tiablo ACE MCE @ 210' or 64 meters






Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 @ 210' or 64 meters


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## alohaluau (Jan 16, 2009)

Hi ernsanada,

Once again you never failed to impress with your reviews! 

Judging by the pics, the ACE seems brighter... :naughty:

I'm now sooooo looking forward in getting my ACE module, seems the constant stream of parcels from Tiablo (and also DX) have caught the eyes of the Australian Customs... 

One parcel arrived (not the ACE) and has a sticker that shows it has been opened then sealed, and a note in there saying it has been inspected but nothing has been taken.

Cheers,
Luau


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## shahzh (Jan 16, 2009)

Nice review there ernsanada:twothumbs. I've just got my ACE module....what can I say its BRIGHT!


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## ernsanada (Jan 16, 2009)

shahzh said:


> Nice review there ernsanada:twothumbs. I've just got my ACE module....what can I say its BRIGHT!



Does your light with MCE get the slight + in the hot spot?


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## ichoderso (Jan 16, 2009)

ernsanada said:


> Does your light with MCE get the slight + in the hot spot?



I got my ACE yesterday. The +/ donuthole is the biggest I have ever seen in a P7/MC-E light. at one meter, the beam is perfect and higher lux readings than my other P7/MC-E lights, bot over 2 meters, i have a big +/donuth. in the center of beam, mor than my other (cheaper KD/DX) lights....

Jens
PS: ernsanada, do you have some current measurings from the ACE and the A10 replacements with one and two cells?????


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## shahzh (Jan 16, 2009)

ernsanada said:


> Does your light with MCE get the slight + in the hot spot?



Yes. I guess its common.


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## Spence (Jan 17, 2009)

I'm considering the Tiablo ACE A10. From the specs on it at the Fenix Store, I thought it was a typo where they described it as 700 lumens. Is that anywhere near righteous as a rating, and what realistic runtimes would you get with two AW 18650's?:thinking::shakehead


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## Spence (Jan 17, 2009)

Correction: It's the Tiablo A10 ACE, not the R2 I was referring to, about $170, and rated at 700 lumens.
Spence:shakehead:duh2:


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## MrGman (Jan 17, 2009)

I got my A10 R2 on Thursday, it punches a hole in the night sky real nice. I guess I can now say I have joined the ranks of those with super throwers. So far it is everything as claimed.

I plan on doing a comparison to WBP's Dereelight DBS XXX and Raidfire Spear. Hopefully we will be able to get some lux readings at 5 meters of all 3 to see what is really best.

Just looking at how well its made and the beauty of the reflector, it is a work of art. 

May be a while before I can get some competitive beamshots against the other lights.


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## MrGman (Jan 17, 2009)

I was going to ask that some one collect all of the corrected sets of lux readings shown here and put them in one table with notes so that we can compare them better. Thanks, G


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## ernsanada (Jan 17, 2009)

These are my new lux readings.

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 24,317 lux @ 1 meter (2 level switch)

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 18650 - 27,115 lux @ 1 meter (1 level switch)

Tiablo A10 R2 WC, 2 AW Protected RCR123's - 30,109 lux @ 1 meter (1 level switch)

Tiablo ACE MCE - 15,920 lux @ 1 meter - 15,920 lux @ 1 meter (1 level switch)


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## shahzh (Jan 17, 2009)

Is there any difference in lux readings with 1 x 18650, 2 x 18650 or 2 x rcr123 for the ACE? I don't own a lux meter......


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## ernsanada (Jan 17, 2009)

shahzh said:


> Is there any difference in lux readings with 1 x 18650, 2 x 18650 or 2 x rcr123 for the ACE? I don't own a lux meter......



Tiablo recommends using 2 18650's with the ACE. That is why they made the battery tube extension. 

I haven't tried a single 18650 or 2 RCR123's with the ACE. 

I did receive a small paper saying" Danger - Do not use 2 RCR123A with this light!". I did take lux readings with 2 RCR123's with R2 but the run time was very short.


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## shahzh (Jan 17, 2009)

Hmmm I was excited over the ACE module I've forgot about the note referring to the danger of using 2 rcr 123's.....thanks anyway.


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## ichoderso (Jan 21, 2009)

ichoderso said:


> Hi Ernsanada, thank you for this new beamshots and results!
> 
> Can you measure the current (from tailcap with clicky switch) from your new A10 and the ACE Module with different voltage (one fresh 18650 and two fresh 16340 or two 18650 Cells??
> 
> ...



Ernsanada, do you had the time to measure this currents and runtimes??
Jens


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jan 21, 2009)

You need the single-stage forward click tailcap in order to get the full potential out of the A10.


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## lightforce2 (Jan 21, 2009)

There are actually 2 different single stage clickys for the A10. the one for the ACE is of a higher amperage than the R2 switch & has slightly less resistance, its the one to use for maximum output from the R2


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## shahzh (Jan 21, 2009)

Really? That means the single stage clickie that was sent by Tiablo when I purchase my A10 R2 is different from the one that came with the ACE.....I tought it was the same. The ACE switch should be compatible to use with the R2 as well right? Can Tiablo or anyone else confirm these......


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## lightforce2 (Jan 21, 2009)

I should qualify what I said - the ACE switch has a heavier spring than the R2 switch, I have not taken apart both switches to compare differences but I've checked the resistance, the ACE recorded 0.3ohms & the R2 was 0.4ohms, whether this equates to a visable difference in the A10 R2 I'm not sure

I have noticed with a few switches on other lights that when you bridge out the circuit infront of the switch you can see a very slight "jump" in light output. I havent done this with the A10 yet


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## naked2 (Jan 21, 2009)

Could you post pictures of both of your forward switches?

Thanks, Tony


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## ernsanada (Jan 22, 2009)

The SMO reflector can fit with the MCE but the hot spot has a hole in it.


Left, ACE MCE reflector, Right, A10 R2 reflector (The MCE reflector has a smaller opening). ACE Reflector diameter for MCE 6.92mm. A10 Reflector diameter for R2 6.96mm.







Since the MCE opening on the OP reflector is smaller the SMO should work. 

I stepped down the exposue to show how the hot spot looks like. I had to shoot the beam shot this way because this is the closest the hole in the hot spot looks like. In real life the hot spot is much brighter and there is much more side spill.


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## ergotelis (Jan 22, 2009)

any quick measurements?


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## ernsanada (Jan 22, 2009)

ergotelis said:


> any quick measurements?



I'll take some lux measurements later today of the MCE with SMO.


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## ernsanada (Jan 22, 2009)

I took a lux reading with the Tiablo ACE using a SMO reflector.


Tiablo ACE SMO - 19,285 lux @ 1 meter


It's bright but the hole in beam shot is annoying.












Note the hole in the beam shots. 

That is why the OP reflector is needed.


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## ergotelis (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks for the measurements!That a great output number, if only they could fix the hole without puting an op! Now throw is comparable to the DBS but with much larger hotspot!
IF it was possible to put the led higher in the reflector, would the hole dissappear?WHat do you think?


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## naked2 (Jan 23, 2009)

It needs a hybrid reflector like Olight. :thumbsup:


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## erlon (Jan 23, 2009)

naked2 said:


> It needs a hybrid reflector like Olight. :thumbsup:



THAT would be nice !!!


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## ernsanada (Jan 23, 2009)

naked2 said:


> It needs a hybrid reflector like Olight. :thumbsup:



Sounds like a good idea.

Who wants to sacrifice their SMO?






BTW this is the Olight T15 Q5.


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## Burgess (Jan 24, 2009)

Thank you, Ernsanada, for this fine review !


:twothumbs


:goodjob::kewlpics::thanks:

_


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## divine (Jan 24, 2009)

It looks like the A10 would really throw if the emitter was driven as hard as the DBS's... but then you're have to shoot your distance shots even further to really show it.


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## Art Vandelay (Jan 25, 2009)

The lux at one meter ratings very widely for this light. from less than 20,000 to more than 40,000. I don't think that all these these differences are due to deception or people not following the standard method of measuring lux at one meter. With some lights it may be better to use another method. I'll list some info on that topic below. 

I should note that I quote from a thread that predates the A10, so don't misunderstand and think that the posters on that thread are taking any position on the A10 lux measurements.

This is a quote of a great post to a CPF thread named "Misapplication of the inverse square law" https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/175038

This is a direct link to the post. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2156568&postcount=41



SilverFox said:


> Let me see if I may be able to shed some light in this...
> 
> Let's start by understanding that lux at 1 meter and foot candles at 1 foot and candela are all the same. 1 Cd = 1 fc (at 1 foot) = 1 lux (at 1 meter). We report lux at 1 meter because it simplifies figuring out throw. If we reported lux at 10 meters, we would first have to convert it to lux at 1 meter, then take the square root to determine throw down to 1 lux.
> 
> ...



Here is a link that shows how to "solve for the virtual origin of a source by measuring irradiance at two points and solving for the offset distance, X, using the Inverse Square Law"
http://www.anees.com/7.html


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