# NOT HAPPY WITH LED'S



## LIGHTSMAD (Jul 31, 2008)

i have many led flash lights ( MRV-Q5, P3D-Q5, D-MINI-Q5, M1-Q5, HOKUS FOCUS SCC-P4 ) ect!!! 

im just not impressed by the power at all......ive upgraded most of them with q5's or scc-p4 leds and so on.

but when i switch on my CONQUEROR Mx 600 incan worth $40ish it blows them away.....for example...i payed $80-90 for mrv $70ish for my p3d and $70ish for d-mini.....its not really a price comparison im getting at.....its the reality of led's...there just not power full enough....specialy for out door tasks......ive seen R-bins R2-R5 ect.....coming in the future but is there going to be much of a power differance or is there going to be anything new in the future....i have looked at lumapowers new flashlights 600-700lm range...maybe thats the solution for the moment!

comments please.......


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## drmaxx (Jul 31, 2008)

Old discussion..... 
With all these lights I suspect you are aware of the pros and cons of hotwire and LEDs, so posting such a thread in this section of the forum is borderline to trolling.


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## LEDninja (Jul 31, 2008)

Dereelight has a Q2 5A neutral warm white pill out for their torches. Some beamshots here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2530570&postcount=43
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2531107&postcount=1
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2538831&postcount=48
DX has a 5A P60 drop in as well.

At the CPF Toronto get together last night my Q2*5A* is better than the Q5s & SSC-P7 on grass & trees but not as good as a Mag 85 incan or a good HID.

Good colour rendition is better than extra brightness. So worry about tint instead of brightness.
Most LEDs have a lot of blue resulting in a flat monochrome blueish-white in the woods. There is no blue coloured things in the woods. Stay away from the 'pure white' tint LEDs when outdoors.
Forget about the brightness part of of the bin (Q5/R2 etc). Check the tint. For currently shipping flashlights 5A is better than WH is better than WG/WD is better than WC. If you have the skills to swap out the emitter Cutter has warm white tints as warm as 8A.
Some reference LED tint charts.
1st what most LED lights today come with:





Here is what you need for outdoors:


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## lumafist (Jul 31, 2008)

Floggèm in the B/S/T...............:devil:

On a more serious note,
there are lights and then there are lights...

I only own customs (apart from 1 E1b-body)..
I would never go back to incans especially now when the "sundrops" are evolving and soon one is going to get my adress on it.....

This all IMO...


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## Jaygnar (Jul 31, 2008)

LIGHTSMAD said:


> i have many led flash lights ( MRV-Q5, P3D-Q5, D-MINI-Q5, M1-Q5, HOKUS FOCUS SCC-P4 ) ect!!!
> 
> im just not impressed by the power at all......ive upgraded most of them with q5's or scc-p4 leds and so on.
> 
> ...



What EXACTLY are you doing outdoors that requires so much light?
My TK10 on high is almost obnoxiously bright for just about anything but extreme long range illumination. Are you wearing sunglasses or something? I mean if you need to transform night into broad daylight, then yeah maybe leds are not the option for you. 
However, the statement that modern leds are not pwerful enough for outdoor tasks if just false. Sorry, but you're just wrong here and you know it. This whole post feels like trolling to me.


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## LIGHTSMAD (Jul 31, 2008)

ok lads.

i think you drew me a big enough picture......i get the mess.....

led ninja thanks for the graphs they will help.

i think ill stick to incan or hid for the mo....im just into good light for outdoor use....led aint goin to do it yet for me....maybe ill come back to led's in a few years and see if they have improved to meet my standards or in another-words caught up with ( incan hid )!!!!!


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## generic808 (Jul 31, 2008)

I don't think he's trolling. I sort of went through the same thing starting off with the good ol' Mag way back when, then converting over to LED. I am now to the point where I pretty much use incan Surefire M's and C's almost exclusively. I do have a TON of LED Surefire's which I'm sure a good number of members probably know by now, but there's just something about incan lighting that I can't describe. I'll take my M6, M4, or M3 over any production LED light out there today, not including customs. But that's just me :nana:


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## LIGHTSMAD (Jul 31, 2008)

yea i think its just my personal choice......we all have our own!

ive no problem buying led's ( run time is good )......provided there is improvement for them in the future!


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## roymail (Jul 31, 2008)

Check out this new Triple led drop in from Malkoff...

Here's some information from the website:

_This is a Drop-In Module for Maglite® 2-3 C&D cell flashlights. It is our brightest dropin offered. It is rated at 450+ bulb lumens on 2 Cells and 700+ bulb lumens on 3 Cells. It will easily light objects at 500+ feet. The beam is aproximately 10-12 degrees with a nice combination of spot and flood. _
*The current output is 600ma per LED on 2 cells and 1000ma per LED on 3 cells. The current draw is approximately 3000ma to 3300ma with a maximum input of 5.5 volts. To insure maximum output, it is recommended that rechargeable cells capable of delivering current in the 3 to 3.5 Amp range be utilized. D sized 10000+ma NIMH cells are ideal for this application. *


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## Zenster (Jul 31, 2008)

generic808 said:


> <snip> ... but there's just something about incan lighting that I can't describe. I'll take my M6, M4, or M3 over any production LED light out there today, not including customs.


 
I've finally come to realize that I'm some kind of freak when it comes to this, and my color vision must be really twisted in one way or another.

I have come to hate the sickly yellow look of an incan beam, and my most favorite lights for indoors OR outdoors is a Q5, somewhere around WC Bin.

My first thought when I turn on an incan is that the batteries must be almost dead or it wouldn't look like that. :shakehead

Waiting anxiously for the R5's to hit.


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## generic808 (Jul 31, 2008)

roymail said:


> Check out this new Triple led drop in from Malkoff...
> 
> Here's some information from the website:
> 
> ...


 
I got the email this afternoon for this and clicked on it immediately only to see that it was all sold out :sigh: I would've picked one up just because.


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## Paul6ppca (Jul 31, 2008)

Try looking at some lights by Electro Lumens ,or some P7 mods,or multi emiter led in mag hosts.They are now around 900 lumes and more,have good throw and good sidespill.
I would think that would work well outdoors,for most applications.


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## TONY M (Jul 31, 2008)

Zenster said:


> I have come to hate the sickly yellow look of an incan beam, and my most favorite lights for indoors OR outdoors is a Q5, somewhere around WC Bin.
> 
> My first thought when I turn on an incan is that the batteries must be almost dead or it wouldn't look like that. :shakehead


+1 
I am the same way now too much prefering cooler tints to warmer incans in flashlights. Although for indoor lighting at home I find warmer colours easier on the eyes. 
Everyone is different I guess and nobody needs to be told what they should like.


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## Beer (Jul 31, 2008)

Posting your dislike of LED's in the LED forum is like poking the hornets nest with a stick.

Now you got them all riled up...:laughing:


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## generic808 (Jul 31, 2008)

Beer said:


> Posting your dislike of LED's in the LED forum is like poking the hornets nest with a stick.
> 
> Now you got them all riled up...:laughing:


 
Hey, any _true_ flashaholic will like and own both. I have a ton of both types, but I think I've made a full circle and recently came back to where I started, with incan.


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## roymail (Jul 31, 2008)

*Zenster*, I had a similar experience when I got my M60L. As you probably know, the Malkoff drop-ins are WG bin's which are more of a _warm white_ than the _bright white_ of the WC's. There's no mistaking the difference.

I had a 6090 in my G2 before the M60L. Although the two have similar output, the tint difference is very noticeable. But, I've come to really like the natural tint of the WG bin in my M60L. However, if you're a "bright white" junkie, you may not like it as much.

But that's OK... everyone has a preference.


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## generic808 (Jul 31, 2008)

Yeah, like those ricer boy race cars on the road with those sickly looking 7000K+ blue HID headlights :green: No thank you. But then again, you have those old beater cars with headlights so fogged up that the light looks banana yellow :green::green: No thank you. 

The M60's have great tint but for some odd reason, and I'm talking about the past 2 months, I'm slowly getting back to incans :shrug:


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## Zenster (Jul 31, 2008)

roymail said:


> *Zenster*, I had a similar experience when I got my M60L. As you probably know, the Malkoff drop-ins are WG bin's which are more of a _warm white_ than the _bright white_ of the WC's. There's no mistaking the difference.


 
Actually, I'm very aware of the Malkoff drop-ins and their color because I have three of them in three 6P's; one M60 and two M60L's.

And yes, I like them (a little) better than the stark white WC's of some of the Q5's, but that's only because I'm vehemently against any blue in any of my LED lights. I HATE blue! If I see any leaning toward blue in an LED, it's simply not bought because if there ever was a major deal breaker with me when it comes to buying lights, "blue" is it.

So just because I don't like incans anymore doesn't mean that I'll accept any 'ol LED. Blue sucks.

All I was trying to get at is that white is nice; nicer than incan yellow and MUCH nicer than LED blue. 
If they could all be the warm white (still nowhere near yellow) of the Malkoff drop-ins, I'd be a happy camper.


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## mudman cj (Jul 31, 2008)

I understand where the OP is coming from. As has been argued many times before, incan provides a more complete spectrum than LEDs, and results in not only better color rendition, but a less tangible effect in which the user may experience better object recognition and depth perception as well. 

But with the advent of the high CRI LEDs, such as the exemplary Nichia 083 used in the Sundrop, there are now LEDs that not only provide a similar color rendition to incan, they actually emit a spectrum closer to sunlight. Some, such as myself, would even argue that this LED provides better color rendition than incan despite the lower CRI rating which is based on the incan spectrum. 

Few people have had the pleasure of using such an LED, but I count myself lucky to be among them. I now use my Nichia 083 LED light for almost everything indoors, but it still can't compete outdoors simply because the emitter does not have custom reflectors or optics AFAIK that can focus it for long distance use. It is also not as bright as the current crop of offerings from LED manufacturers; it's more like a Lux III in efficiency. But the trade off is well worth it in my opinion for many tasks. 

I think it won't be long before LEDs are able to provide a solar spectrum with efficiencies that surpass incans and with competitive throw as well. Just be patience friends.


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## Crenshaw (Jul 31, 2008)

yes LEDS are horrible, you should get rid of all of them now...just put them in a big fedex box, and send them to me....

:nana:

Crenshaw


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## pbs357 (Jul 31, 2008)

If you're looking for sheer output, the hotwire incans are where it's at. Some P7 leds are good though. However, the lights you mentioned, like the P3D-Q5 are about variable and regulated output, longer runtime and small size. It's been discussed before but each type incan/LED has its own pros and cons. And as posted above, if you don't like them, please send them to me! :naughty:


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## roymail (Jul 31, 2008)

Zenster said:


> I'm vehemently against any blue in any of my LED lights. I HATE blue!
> So just because I don't like incans anymore doesn't mean that I'll accept any 'ol LED. Blue sucks.


 
Agreed... I hate blue and purple tinted LEDS, too! WC white is good and WG warm white is better, IMO. Just my 2 cents!


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## C4LED (Jul 31, 2008)

LIGHTSMAD, Good avatar! :laughing:

Just stick to leds for long run time - indoor use and rugged water resistant qualities.

Erin Go Bragh


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## LED-holic (Jul 31, 2008)

I'd like to know if there's a single illumination device that 100% of people are happy with. I doubt one exists.

I think this thread is interesting because so many people are happy with LEDs that it's rare for a person to dislike LEDs. Says a lot about the capabilities of LEDs. :naughty:

Looking at our own forums here, the LED sub-forum has 33K+ threads versus 5K+ threads in the incan forum. Very telling what the majority prefer.


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## Zenster (Jul 31, 2008)

LED-holic said:


> Looking at our own forums here, the LED sub-forum has 33K+ threads versus 5K+ threads in the incan forum. Very telling what the majority prefer.


 
_"When I was a young boy, we used to have to put General Purpose D-cell batteries in a Ray-O-Vac incan flashlight and hit it on the ground a couple of times before it would turn on, and when it did, you couldn't see more than 15 feet in front of you unless the moon was full....._ 
_*And we LIKED IT!"*_


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## LED-holic (Jul 31, 2008)

Zenster said:


> _"When I was a young boy, we used to have to put General Purpose D-cell batteries in a Ray-O-Vac incan flashlight and hit it on the ground a couple of times before it would turn on, and when it did, you couldn't see more than 15 feet in front of you unless the moon was full....._
> _*And we LIKED IT!"*_


:candle::candle:


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## lukevsdarth (Jul 31, 2008)

I dont know about you guys but BBQ Chicken and Fajitas look great under a Modded Q5 Romisen RC-G2 (my party EDC). Thats outdoors right !
Runtime is great lasts all 3-4 rounds of BBQ ing and more.


If you want to try light up and BBQ outdoors with a incand first you'll probably run out of battery life before the second round. Next yellow sure doesnt help in determining if your foods fully cooked. If you want to carry a 4D flashlight with you at a party where your a guest at somebody else's house so be it. Not really a EDC. 

Throw what you want at new technology leds vs filament incands but i think leds wins this round.


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## ambientmind (Jul 31, 2008)

LEDninja said:


> DX has a 5A P60 drop in as well.



Any more info on this? I cant seem to find it. Thanks!


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## Watchguy (Aug 1, 2008)

Zenster said:


> _"When I was a young boy, we used to have to put General Purpose D-cell batteries in a Ray-O-Vac incan flashlight and hit it on the ground a couple of times before it would turn on, and when it did, you couldn't see more than 15 feet in front of you unless the moon was full....._
> _*And we LIKED IT!"*_



Man, that takes me back.Only it was wacked more than a couple of times.


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## RGB_LED (Aug 1, 2008)

This thread reminds me of the conversation I had with some friends of mine regarding halogen vs. LED's on our night-time mountain bike rides... I insisted that, with the new LED technology, any LED bike light would put 99% of the halogen lights to shame with its regulated output AND long potentially long runtimes. Well, I had one friend who bought TWO $350 halogen bike lights (!) and another who bought a $200 halogen bike light. My friend, who bought the $200 light, insisted to me that he thinks the colour rendition is more accurate than with LED. Don't get me wrong, I like incan for its ability to see detail but, I tested my 3xSSC P4 light on one ride and it was on max for 2 hours without any issues while, all of the halogens were showing the sickly yellow-orange and fading less than 1 hour into the ride. The moral of the story... the light isn't any good if it's dead or fading in output after only 1 hour of riding and we have another hour or two to go!

Btw, my first friend has since replaced his halogen with two new LED lights as he got tired of riding in the dark after 1.5 hrs and my other friend... well, we'll see what happens at the end of this season... :laughing:



Zenster said:


> _"When I was a young boy, we used to have to put General Purpose D-cell batteries in a Ray-O-Vac incan flashlight and hit it on the ground a couple of times before it would turn on, and when it did, you couldn't see more than 15 feet in front of you unless the moon was full....._
> _*And we LIKED IT!"*_


:twothumbsOMG... are we aging ourselves if we admit to experiencing this first-hand? I remember this as a child...


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## Patriot (Aug 1, 2008)

If sheer output is your only concern and run-time isn't, then of course, you can't do any better than Incan or HID. There are some powerful LED multi's out there like the WiseLED Tactical, but once again, if you could care less about run-time, there would be no need to bother with them. Considering that Q5's are only in the 250 lumen range, I'm surprised that you even messed around with LED's in the first place since their output is clearly listed. :thinking:


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## TorchBoy (Aug 1, 2008)

*Re: Not happy with LEDs*



Zenster said:


> _"When I was a young boy, we used to have to put General Purpose D-cell batteries in a Ray-O-Vac incan flashlight and hit it on the ground a couple of times before it would turn on, and when it did, you couldn't see more than 15 feet in front of you unless the moon was full....._
> _*And we LIKED IT!"*_


This is great. If there's a thread with more of that sort of thing, by all means point me to it.

One torch that I remember using when I was very young had a single AA and a penlight bulb, the sort with a little lens in the tip of the bulb. And it had a sticker of Porky Pig on the side. Anyway, it seemed to always have a mostly flat battery in it. I remember the thing never really being anything other than dim and brown. But it was sort of fun to use it for exploring dark rooms, along with homemade torches constructed in a matchbox. Kids these days who have cheap, bright LED torches don't know what they're missing.


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## rtt (Aug 2, 2008)

As someone posted earlier, there is no perfect light for all circumstances! A couple of months ago the person that does the maintenance work at our company was trying to fix a problem with our LAN system. He knows that I like lights and I gave him a SF E2L for his birthday since he only had a 2D Mag and a AA Mag. It surprised me to see him working on one of the junction boxes in a dark corner of the building a month ago using his AA Mag. I asked him why he was using his AA Mag and his reply was so I can see the wire colors! Seems like the led lights in this situation does not work effectively.


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## TorchBoy (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Not happy with LEDs*



rtt said:


> ... I gave him a SF E2L for his birthday ... he was using his AA Mag and his reply was so I can see the wire colors!


Perhaps for his next birthday you could mod it with a warm white LED.


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## Lite_me (Aug 2, 2008)

rtt said:


> I asked him why he was using his AA Mag and his reply was so I can see the wire colors! Seems like the led lights in this situation does not work effectively.


I gave a brother an LED light for work, he's an automotive technician, specializing in emission systems, CPU's and the like, and he told me the same thing. I think he eventually learned to work with it though.


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## groutboy_1 (Aug 3, 2008)

Normally, I don't post my opinon on these LED VS INCAND. flame wars, but, today i have to add my two cents worth...I'm a true convert of LED technology( "The Batterysaving Church of the Long-lived, Light Emitting Diode...")The future is LED:" Get over it." Every indication in Sci-tech,and Business publications, show positive advancements far surpassing any "Burning Wire". An example just how popular LED's have become is right here on this forum...Today, I noticed 59 people viewing the LED flashlight section...Where as, only 5 were viewing the Incandencent flashlight area... So, In jest, for my like-minded, LED Brothers,and Sisters, I propose a forum change, for the the future, and to prevent global warming... I propose that the Incandescent flashlight section be reconverted into a sub-forum, under the main forum title of Primitive Lighting...to be included in this sub-forum as follows...1. Incandescent Flashlights....2.Lighters...3.Matches....4.Flint and Tinder...


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## bondr006 (Aug 3, 2008)

Now, that's pretty damn funny Thanks groutboy....I needed a good chuckle tonight:thumbsup:



groutboy_1 said:


> So, In jest, for my like-minded, LED Brothers,and Sisters, I propose a forum change, for the the future, and to prevent global warming... I propose that the Incandescent flashlight section be reconverted into a sub-forum, under the main forum title of Primitive Lighting...to be included in this sub-forum as follows...1. Incandescent Flashlights....2.Lighters...3.Matches....4.Flint and Tinder...


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## zipplet (Aug 4, 2008)

Are there any beam shots and runtime graphs for lighters and matches? How do they compare to minimags?


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## groutboy_1 (Aug 4, 2008)

Sorry,no... I'm having some trouble with my runtime tests in the Flint,and Tinder section...
That last rain shower put a damper on things...it's going to be dark soon..Does anyone have an LED????


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## lumafist (Aug 4, 2008)

groutboy_1 said:


> Sorry,no... I'm having some trouble with my runtime tests in the Flint,and Tinder section...
> That last rain shower put a damper on things...it's going to be dark soon..Does anyone have an LED????


 



LOL...!


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## bondr006 (Aug 4, 2008)

And again....



groutboy_1 said:


> Sorry,no... I'm having some trouble with my runtime tests in the Flint,and Tinder section...
> That last rain shower put a damper on things...it's going to be dark soon..Does anyone have an LED????


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## groutboy_1 (Aug 17, 2008)

Does anyone in the "Primitive Lighting forums", know where I can purchase a old, vintage, electric guzzling, 60 watt incandscent lightbulb??? Maybe, one of the 3 total viewers in the Incandscent Flashlight sub-forums can help?????


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## shakeylegs (Aug 17, 2008)

groutboy_1 said:


> Does anyone in the "Primitive Lighting forums", know where I can purchase a old, vintage, electric guzzling, 60 watt incandscent lightbulb??? Maybe, one of the 3 total viewers in the Incandscent Flashlight sub-forums can help?????



Curiously, I went to the hardware store in town to buy a few 60w household bulbs. None to be found as all new incoming "60's" are now "58's" with reduced runtimes. How green is that? Bring on the led bulbs.


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## BabyDoc (Aug 17, 2008)

I am hearing mixed messages from the OP about why he is not happy with LED's. It first sounded like he needed a searchlight and was unhappy they don't make LED searchlights. While they do make some powerful incadescent lights, you need power to run them, and efficiency isn't their claim to fame, even if brightness is. If you want brightness, and efficency you are not going to find it with incadescents. LED's are then your best bet.

Then he stated that he didn't like the color rendition of the LED. With the latter complaint, I would agree LED's still have a long way to go, compared to the better color rendering incadescents. Still, there are exceptions to that. McGizmo's SunDrop comes to mind. I have used one in my medical practice and for close work it is far superior, IMO, to incadescents, both in terms of color rendition and runtime. Presently, however, there is a price in terms of output that you have to pay for LED color rendition. Better single color rendering LED's are going to have multiple phosphors and a thicker phosphor coating on the inside of the LED, limiting somewhat the brightness you could get with a more naked LED. Even these have adequate illumination, if not color perfect, for most peoples needs. Fast forward another 5 to 10 years. I have little doubt that while we may not have LED Searchlights, will have brighter, more efficent, better color rendering LED's than we have today. On the other hand incadescents with there limited efficiency are not likely to improve.


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## KowShak (Aug 17, 2008)

If cars can have LED headlights, why can we not make an LED searchlight with that same technology?


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## TorchBoy (Aug 18, 2008)

*Re: Not happy with LEDs*



BabyDoc said:


> If you want brightness, and efficency you are not going to find it with incadescents. LED's are then your best bet.


I was _so_ sure you were going to mention HID then. :candle:


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## ampdude (Aug 18, 2008)

The way battery technology has continued to progress over the past few years, I see no reason to put up with the inferior output of LED's when you can have a xenon/halogen light instead.

As it continues to mature, I see the "efficiency" argument of LED's becoming even less and less appealing over time as well.

No doubt LED's will continue to make great keychain lights, indicator lights and long running survival lights for a very long time.

But they will continue to be inferior as long as their electronics are cheap, their emitter area is large (and dimmer than the filament or electric arc), and their output is in a poor visual spectrum that lacks color, depth and definition.


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 18, 2008)

Jaygnar said:


> What EXACTLY are you doing outdoors that requires so much light?...


LOL! Many types of discussion on this forum center around the *Light Culture* of an individual IMO. Not only many LED vs INCAN threads but also many that _seem_ to be centered on THROW vs FLOOD or BRIGHT vs DIM. Much of the time the true issue is *not included* in the Subject line or even the Body of the post.

Another example would be threads with Subjects like: "What Light Should I Buy to Walk My Dog?" Without understanding a person's Light Culture many recommendations may seem pretty silly. One user may very well _want or *need*_ ten times as much light to accomplish the same task as another. There is no right or wrong amount of light for a given job, which is pretty easy to see by reading a few threads on CPF.

Some (outside of CPF) have never even given that the slightest thought. I've met many people who just want to 'turn off the dark' when they switch on their light. They just want to replace the dark with what they have grown very used to over the course of their whole lives -- *the bright, floody, white light from the sun.* Anything else may be a disappointment.

The range of opinion on this may be one of the broadest of any issue on CPF. Oh yeah, YMMV all right!


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## groutboy_1 (Aug 18, 2008)

(jest)
L.E.D. Brothers, and Sisters, for years, many disciples belonging to The Battery Saving Church of the Long-Lived, Light., Emitting., Diode., have been ridiculed about their faith...Subjected to Taunting, and Heresy...Spread forth by a few Incand./ Non-Belivers...Who have not seen the Emaculate (White) L.E.D. light...Only The dim orange glow
from fading batteries, and the disparity of an empty checking account...I say, except No Blasphemies against; St. Cree, St. SSC, St. Luxeon, or St. Nichia... Henceforth, a cord has been struck...Seen on varoius new threads...For-those of the Arcane Pratices of Primitive Lightining apppear perplexed...Could there be a Great Lighting Inquisition on the horzon...I say, L.E.D. Brothers, and Sisters, may Bright light, and long run-times be with you, always.......


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## ampdude (Aug 18, 2008)

groutboy_1 said:


> (jest)
> L.E.D. Brothers, and Sisters, for years, many disciples belonging to The Battery Saving Church of the Long-Lived, Light., Emitting., Diode., have been ridiculed about their faith...Subjected to Taunting, and Heresy...Spread forth by a few Incand./ Non-Belivers...Who have not seen the Emaculate (White) L.E.D. light...Only The dim orange glow
> from fading batteries, and the disparity of an empty checking account...I say, except No Blasphemies against; St. Cree, St. SSC, St. Luxeon, or St. Nichia... Henceforth, a cord has been struck...Seen on varoius new threads...For-those of the Arcane Pratices of Primitive Lightining apppear perplexed...Could there be a Great Lighting Inquisition on the horzon...I say, L.E.D. Brothers, and Sisters, may Bright light, and long run-times be with you, always.......



 I have to admit to not having bought any new flashlights solely for the emitter in at least two years. My checking account is looking better because of that. Also, there are these batteries that have been around for quite awhile now called lithium ions, which are rechargeable, so my checking account is REALLY liking that..

And I'm really loving the output of my xenon lights everyday.


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## asdalton (Aug 18, 2008)

ampdude said:


> As it continues to mature, I see the "efficiency" argument of LED's becoming even less and less appealing over time as well.



:thinking:
Um ... The "efficiency" argument should be getting _more_ appealing, given that incandescent filaments are near their maximum theoretical efficiency, while LEDs are now over 4x as efficient and continue to get better.


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## ampdude (Aug 18, 2008)

asdalton said:


> :thinking:
> Um ... The "efficiency" argument should be getting _more_ appealing, given that incandescent filaments are near their maximum theoretical efficiency, while LEDs are now over 4x as efficient and continue to get better.



I was going to throw that little detail in there, but I knew somebody would fill in the gap. 

I'm not willing to sacrifice light quality if the runtime is already more than adequate. Batteries are getting even better. Before long I predict the whole runtime argument will be a joke for serious users. 

They didn't get the space mission to the moon with efficiency.

Scotty, we need more power!

We'll probably be talking about LED's in 10-15 years like we talk about Zinc-Chloride batteries now.


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## Marduke (Aug 18, 2008)

ampdude said:


> They didn't get the space shuttle to the moon with efficiency.



Umm, they never got the space shuttle to the moon. It's never left low earth orbit....


The simple fact remains however, that incans can't touch the HIGHER output of LED's in a smaller package.


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## ampdude (Aug 18, 2008)

Marduke said:


> Umm, they never got the space shuttle to the moon. It's never left low earth orbit....



yea yea, beat me before I could edit the typo, answer my points.


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## ampdude (Aug 18, 2008)

Marduke said:


> The simple fact remains however, that incans can't touch the HIGHER output of LED's in a smaller package.



Definitely not, that's why I have a LED light on my keychain, because my Solitaire just doesn't come close.


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## asdalton (Aug 18, 2008)

ampdude said:


> We'll probably be talking about LED's in 10-15 years like we talk about Zinc-Chloride batteries now.



  

Sorry, but that's all it warrants.


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## nightshade (Aug 18, 2008)

I'm still looking for sunlight in a can too.


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## merlocka (Aug 20, 2008)

I, for one, welcome our new incandescent overlords.


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## LED-holic (Aug 20, 2008)

ampdude said:


> The way battery technology has continued to progress over the past few years, I see no reason to put up with the inferior output of LED's when you can have a xenon/halogen light instead.
> 
> As it continues to mature, I see the "efficiency" argument of LED's becoming even less and less appealing over time as well.
> 
> ...


This sounds pretty far fetched to me, to be honest.

There are other attributes besides the efficiency of LEDs, which will only continue to improve and make them far more attractive.

LEDs are very rugged, so they're perfect for flashlights. How rugged / safe are xenon/halogen bulbs / lights? Xenon bulbs for example have gas under very high pressure, and could pose a danger if it were to break. Halogen lights get very very hot and could be a fire danger potentially. 

Also, how long do xenon / halogen bulbs last compared to LED? Regardless of color rendition, fact is I got really tired of incandescent bulbs dimming and burning out. The simple fact that LED is maintenance free makes it far superior for normal usage over incans imho. I don't like to consume bulbs like I consume batteries. It's a chore enough to keep one consumable on hand. It's a waste to add another consumable to my budget as well, like the bulb.

LEDs are more practical for flashlight use, and their color rendition will only get better. I think your predictions are going to be very off base 10-15 years from now.


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 20, 2008)

Gawd I love this place! This makes politics look like a walk on the beach.


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## TorchBoy (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: Not happy with LEDs*



ampdude said:


> As it continues to mature, I see the "efficiency" argument of LED's becoming even less and less appealing over time as well.


Assuming that's not trolling, I can imagine that as inefficient lighting technologies slowly go the way of zinc chloride batteries (oh, yeah, they're still around ) that the efficiency of LEDs _will_ be less mentioned, because everything _will_ be efficient. It'll be expected, not a pleasant surprise.



Sub_Umbra said:


> This makes politics look like a walk on the beach.


Actually there are good reasons why politics is banned from this forum.


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## ampdude (Aug 22, 2008)

*Re: Not happy with LEDs*



TorchBoy said:


> Assuming that's not trolling, I can imagine that as inefficient lighting technologies slowly go the way of zinc chloride batteries (oh, yeah, they're still around ) that the efficiency of LEDs _will_ be less mentioned, because everything _will_ be efficient. It'll be expected, not a pleasant surprise.
> 
> 
> Actually there are good reasons why politics is banned from this forum.



Does anybody really give a crap about emitter efficiency in flashlights if the batteries have 10AH or more in an RCR package at 4V or better? That's funny. I'm talking about flashlights, not industrial lighting.


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## Marduke (Aug 22, 2008)

Modern LED's can also get you closer to the color of pure sunlight than incans.


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## TorchBoy (Aug 22, 2008)

*Re: Not happy with LEDs*



ampdude said:


> Does anybody really give a crap about emitter efficiency in flashlights if the batteries have 10AH or more in an RCR package at 4V or better? That's funny.


40WH in an RCR? Only a dozen times what they have now - cool. :tinfoil: I won't hold my breath  and I guess that explains why people still care about efficiency.

BTW, industrial lighting typically uses gas discharge, not incandescent _or_ LED. But I suppose it depends on what you mean by industrial.


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 29, 2014)

Wait minute! Remember this thread from way back when! Before the infamous CPF server crash! It was hilarious! I think I see the I.d. of one of CPF's ancient 'hotwire guys/modders of incandescents '! All the fun and fond memories of the old 'incandescent guys' defending the old SF p60-or the Maglite kypton bulbs, or spending $100.00 for a specialty bulb that might last 10 minutes, and flash out, pop...Or how fast the battery power would be gobbled down....Yes maybe they able to cause fires at close range, but that was just a byproduct OF waste! Its amazing to see this thread has survived for so long! A piece of ancient history...Like incandescent light bulbs, incandescent flashlights- if you can find them anymore, ACTUTAL candles- used only for fragrance, and mood enhancements. I think I have a pack of matches around somewhere in my kitchen...I think i'll celebrate' incandescents' and light a scented candle for them! Long gone, but not forgotten! (Now it's time to break out the nitecore Ea 4aa pioneer, and think about the future of LED's!)


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## RetroTechie (Mar 29, 2014)

Funny read indeed. Imho: incandescents haven't changed. They still do what they used to do, however bad or good you think that is.

LEDs on the other hand, _have_ changed - a lot. Few 'idiots' will argue these days over incandescent lumens output vs. LEDs. Incandescents have lost that battle long ago.

When I got my first proper LED light, yes indeed there was a big difference indeed in *color spectrum* of the light. That is still the case, but there are much better LEDs out there these days. Recently bought a few warm white, high-CRI Chip-on-Board modules, whose light tint can very much compete with my 20W halogen desk lamp.

I remember a similar discussion on CRT's vs. LCD when LCD screens where relatively new. Yes there are still some things a CRT can do that even the best LCD screens out there can't. But at some point, even a mediocre LCD will be better _for the average Joe_ than whatever CRT is still around. At that point, either you're happy with the newfangled tech, you have managed to find an exceptionally poor example of the new tech, you have a very specialist application (good for you! No argument from me there), OR you are just an idiot with his/her head in the sand.  :shakehead

FWIW: not ditching any incandescent bulbs I have around the house. With very few exceptions, not in use anymore. But not worried I wouldn't be able to find replacements either.  Glowing-wire-in-glass-bulb is just too simple, too common, too ubiquitous to go anywhere any time soon.


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 29, 2014)

1.) Definitely, a funny ancient history thread for CPF. So much so there should be a week long history channel Speical on incandescents/vs LED advancements in lightning. Including portable flashlight technology of course!
2.) I think you would be hard pressed to find a CRT monitor now a day's. Unless you were dumpster diving, at a flea market, or dear old dad/mom can't let go of their old school tech! My dad's 1st/2nd gen 1080i viore 42" plasma screen is still working well today. With near zero screen burn in. 
3.) Still wondering what happened to the CPF sub-forum for Flint and Tinder...Where has it gone to!? 
4.) My dad has been hoarding incandescent light bulbs to sell to the unwashed masses at $5.00 to 10.00 a pack...as a collector's item for incandescent junkies who can't avoid waste!
5.) Enjoying my in home CFL/LED lighting with 15w-65W incandescent equivalents...And my low electricity Bill!


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## fivemega (Mar 29, 2014)

groutboy_1 said:


> Wait minute!


*Minute?
After 6 years I haven't found any LED to replace my incand*





RetroTechie said:


> LEDs on the other hand, _have_ changed - a lot..


*They still have a long way to go and reach incand quality.*


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 29, 2014)

I see their are still a vocal few who have not given up on the old ways!


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## MBentz (Mar 29, 2014)

groutboy_1 said:


> I see their are still a vocal few who have not give up on the old ways!



Dig this thread up in six years and it will still be same.


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

It's been since 2008, and i'm viewing this thread on my HD OLED display on my smartphone...How come my smartphone display doesn't come in incandescent?


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

Why aren't there any Ultra 4k TV's with optional incandescent displays? What about Apple I Phone 5, or current gen I pads" retina displays" . Why aren't there any incandescent editions? Would u prefer to use an old kypton bulb Maglite, or say a nitecore EA 4 pioneer to walk the dog...?


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

Would anyone want a retro-tech Note 3, or I phone 5 with vacuum tubes, an incandescent display, and a cable to the 12 volt car battery carried in a shoulder harness! ?


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

Truthfully, what would you prefer...New tech on the left, or old teck on the right! ?


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## dc38 (Mar 30, 2014)

groutboy_1 said:


> Truthfully, what would you prefer...New tech on the left, or old teck on the right! ?



That isn't exactly a fair comparison...it's three to one, the camera tries its best to balance colors, and the picture doesn't reenact a real world application...for skin colors and hues, I find incandescent lights more effective.

Also, it's unfair to promote the merits of LED in practical usage while attacking the shortcomings of incandescent in impractical usage. The better thing to do would be to make a comparison chart with specific criteria and gauge them. It would facilitate mentioning ALL positive and negative attributes to either tech. I.e. did you know that any greenable solution such as LED and solar requires there to be rather toxic (environmentally detrimental) byproduct to be produced?


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

@dc38, Grasping at straws..? Sounds funny...I know which ones I'd chose! (Old brinkman poly-lx on left 120lms estimated vs 258Lm Fenix T11 at 10ft...)


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

Brinkman poly-Lx 120Lms estimated incandescent vs Lumapower D mini Vx 2 with Xml at 310lms with standard cr123....


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

Brinkman poly-LX 120lm incandescent vs Current gen Maglite Magtac at 320lms....


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## ven (Mar 30, 2014)

I can see both sides,as the incans have a strong following,good colour rendition.

For me i prefer leds,only incan experience i have is maglite and in standard form so limited at best. I have been far from impressed with cell life be it AA or D cell and found the life very short too before a replacement bulb was required.I am sure modded ones are far better no doubt there............

But i now like my "warmer tints" as well as cool ,so i guess its a good happy medium for rendition and longer life from leds(from my experience anyway).

Agree with MBentz,this will be for ever in dispute.......

Its down to personal preference,what gives you the best results for your application

:tinfoil:
There will always be advancements,but every now and then even a :candle: has its uses...........and always will.........just my opinion
:thumbsup:


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

Finally, I believe, In my opinion...To rest the LED vs Incandescent old school stuff...brinkman incandescent poly-lx 120lms vs EA 4aa Pioneer at a blistering 860lms! Lighting up my entire kitchen! )


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## dc38 (Mar 30, 2014)

groutboy_1 said:


> @dc38, Grasping at straws..? Sounds funny...I know which ones I'd chose! (Old brinkman poly-lx on left 120lms estimated vs 258Lm Fenix T11 at 10ft...



Not really straws here...we are looking subjectively at LED/incandescent tech without accommodating all aspects of either. The longevity and efficiency of LED tech is undeniable, I happen to prefer LED for most lighting applications myself. I'm just saying that both techs have pros and cons, and personal/professional preference is quite subjective and not universalized to the standard of general preference. Unfortunately, corporations have mastered the art of mass marketed bandwagoning: basically, if you're not with us, you're obsolete. 

Maybe I'm bringing up an unrelated topic into the discussion, but do you have a generalized set of tasks that fit you in particular that leads you to believe LED is "better" than incandescent? Guidelines and task requirements differ from person to person, and we don't yet live in a society where everybody is programmed to do identical tasks.


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

Please show me a current gen incandescent flashlight that offers competition to my Nitecore 4aa Pioneer 550lms/860lms- that has the same dollar per Lumens...Power longevity, and overall cost efficiency....


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

Also, keeping in mind of the Nitecores compact size as well....


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## dc38 (Mar 30, 2014)

groutboy_1 said:


> Please show me a current gen incandescent flashlight that offers competition to my Nitecore 4aa Pioneer 550lms/860lms- that has the same dollar per Lumens...Power longevity, and overall cost efficiency....


That is the subjectivity I was looking for...based on those guidelines, LED trumps incans by at least tenfold.


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

Unfortunately, all I see is reality. ...Old school- in the background =ancient history...LEDS and beyond =The present, and a' bright' future to come!!!


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## rojos (Mar 30, 2014)

Am I the only one that likes the incan better in every one of those beamshots? 

True story: Not long ago, I was taking an evening stroll on some nearby trails when a wall of fog rolled in thicker than I had seen in a long, long time. It wasn't long before the glare from my headlamp made it impossible to see and I turned it off. I had a couple new lights with me in addition to the headlamp that I was testing out. A neutral XML2 thrower and a Nichia EDC. I also had a P60 incan with me for comparison. First the XML2 - I turned it on and cycled through the modes. I couldn't see a damned thing on any of the modes. Too much glare. Next the Nichia - nope, still too much glare. Finally I pulled out the P60 incan - ahhhh, much better. I could finally see where I was going. I felt confident walking in the fog with the incan. Couldn't say the same for the LEDs even though they were the latest and greatest in tint and CRI and whatnot. 

Long story short: Incans are still better than LEDs in the right situation.

But I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

@rojos, for a moment, I thought you were Bear Grylis doing a spot for Gerber knife and tool....What about the use flares, or Discharging flare gun!!!? I would probably rough it like the old days and made a big torch!!!


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## Eric242 (Mar 30, 2014)

Most of the incan guys prefer incans because of the better colour rendition. Apart from that, LEDs are more powerfull (nowadays), provide better runtime and have a longer live expectancy (usually). You groutboy_1 compare the incans to cool white LEDs I assume (can´t be sure since your pictures don´t have the exif data and the white balance is unknown). That´s the part where all the incans pictured are better than the LED lights you compare them with. And comparing an incan with 120 lumens to a LED with hundreds of lumens doesn´t make any sense - you could do the same the other way around. Even today, when over a thousend lumens isn´t a problem for a LED light, there are still LED lights that only put out 150 lumens for example, even though they could way more. The reason? Guess what, here comes dc38, is different applications. To each his own. Somelike LEDs, some like incans better.

By the way groutboy, instead of posting three or even four times in a row, you could edit the last post.

Eric


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for a manufacturer, or lighting company to sell a product with Nasty PUKE Green LEDS!!! NO EXCUSE!!!!


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## rojos (Mar 30, 2014)

groutboy_1 said:


> There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for a manufacturer, or lighting company to sell a product with Nasty PUKE Green LEDS!!! NO EXCUSE!!!!



That's another area where incans rule. No tint lottery. Well, at least less of one.


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

Still very high BIAs against LEDS....I'm sorry...I don't have a photo studio, or color charts, or a light meter...I loaned out my integrating spheres...And most of the criticism is based on bias by people who already made up their mind because their pro- incandescent in the 1st place....That's fine, waste your batteries...Blow your bulbs...Never try to convince someone who says you took a picture of a mudslide....When in reality it was a tornado....


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## TMedina (Mar 30, 2014)

Huh. The next time Portland has a massive fog, I need to test some of my LEDs. 

Anyway, while there might always be a market for flashlight incandescent bulbs, which I doubt, the US has already blocked production of incandescent bulbs for most - there are, apparently, some exceptions to the law. But by and large, we're all going to be shifting to either LED lighting or some other "green" lighting solution.


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

Ahh Hell with it! You convinced me!!! I'll give up my Nitecore Pioneer...Just keep a box of matches, and some candlesticks with a mirrored holder in my back pocket! NOT!!!!!


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## Bimmerboy (Mar 30, 2014)

Who the heck is groutboy arguing with?? The flurry of posts ridiculing those who dare enjoy incan bulbs vs. the lack of posts from anyone that would encourage such behavior is puzzling.

Nonetheless, I sense a severe lack of experience behind all the bloviating.


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## groutboy_1 (Mar 30, 2014)

@Target/Wal-Mart employees. ...


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## groutboy_1 (Apr 7, 2014)

"Regressing!!!! Threw out advanced LED lighting devices, illumination tools, adv. Bio illuminace, etc...Retro-Regressing to older time period! Attempting to revell in the yellow illumination of incandescents, and fire!!! Must go further...Throwing out HDTV, Lap top, tablets, and smashing smartphones...Reverting to a less developed time period....Now unable post, or communicat..........................."


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## groutboy_1 (Apr 10, 2014)

Using a go between to communicate. In order to" love the incandescents, and the flame" again...I purged myself of all modern technology and retro-regressed to caveman levels.I refuse to look upon anything LED. I have once again learned the ancient art of fire making with flint and tinder. Or by rubbing two sticks.together for a few hours at time. I have learned to bask in the light of incandescents. Using old Ray-o-Vac sportsman flashlights from yesteryear to light my way. I am beginning to feel sleepy in my cave next to the partially warm fire, and the subdued glow of my incandescent flashlight. Maybe I am wrong and it is hypothermia, and the flu that actutally has gotten a hold of me..Not the old orangy-yellow effect of the low lumen incandescents of old......


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## dss_777 (Apr 10, 2014)

groutboy_1 said:


> Using a go between to communicate. In order to" love the incandescents, and the flame" again...I purged myself of all modern technology and retro-regressed to caveman levels.I refuse to look upon anything LED. I have once again learned the ancient art of fire making with flint and tinder. Or by rubbing two sticks.together for a few hours at time. I have learned to bask in the light of incandescents. Using old Ray-o-Vac sportsman flashlights from yesteryear to light my way. I am beginning to feel sleepy in my cave next to the partially warm fire, and the subdued glow of my incandescent flashlight. Maybe I am wrong and it is hypothermia, and the flu that actutally has gotten a hold of me..Not the old orangy-yellow effect of the low lumen incandescents of old......



You feeling ok? It's just that you sound, well... crazy. 

We're here for you. Please let us know what we can do to to help you.

:thumbsup:


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## groutboy_1 (Apr 10, 2014)

I was trying to re-live the past old glory that was incandescents...Even now, in 2014, the 21st century...I have a vocal few telling me it is wrong to enjoy the" ghost light" of LEDS... That it is sacrilege, so Sayth the followers of Orangy-Yellow light of the holy incandescents...And those who are still listening to the old wise men "the hotwire guys". I am trying to rediscover the orange-yellow glow....I shall try not to stumble in my path...I shall shun any and all LEDS...


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## iluvmycam (Apr 10, 2014)

This reminds me of the 'film versus digital' debate on the photo forums. 

I love Surefire LED lights. I would never go back to the old tech lights. My Surefire's are near bombproof and they put out plenty. They are a joy to use.

If some of you hate LED's...no one is twisting your arm.


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## groutboy_1 (Apr 10, 2014)

@Illuvmycam, Of course it is all done in jest...But I a group recently revived this CPF Ancient History thread...I remember posting on this thread many many years ago. And the same" LED Discrimination" still exists to this day! I ,course love my LED/ High lumen output lights that drink less power from batteries than incandescents ever did..No blown bulbs, especially if your in a boat, in the dark, on a lake...or strolling through the deep dark woods...Wouldn't want to be fumbling with you old 2d cell Maglite hoping there's a spare bulb in the tailcap that didn't receive any incidental impact damage....Or your mini Maglite decided to have a burn out...oops...I do love my EA 4 Pioneer, Lumapower vx2 d mini, Jetbeam bc 10, Fenix tk11, Magtac LED, etc..All with 258lms to 860lms! I couldn't get that from my brinkman incandescent....I would have to carry around an early rechargeable spotlight with a 3lb battery to match it!


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## groutboy_1 (Apr 10, 2014)

Ps: I wouldn't go back to film if they paid me! I keep my Fuji fine pix xp200, Sony pocket Handicam gr77 shockproof/weather proof/ ,or my Canon digital. ..


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## Bimmerboy (Apr 10, 2014)

groutboy_1 said:


> Even now, in 2014, the 21st century...I have a vocal few telling me it is wrong to enjoy the" ghost light" of LEDS.


Who the hell is saying that??

Nobody. You're trolling.



iluvmycam said:


> If some of you hate LED's...no one is twisting your arm.


What?? Have you even read this thread?


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## groutboy_1 (Apr 10, 2014)

I have, from way back when. Calling all LED people. ..Some help here....


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## groutboy_1 (Apr 11, 2014)

This thread was more pro-LED at one time. With the advancement of science, and energy efficiency.


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## breinrules (Apr 11, 2014)

When skynet rules over the world and disable your electronics, it is the time old school cars and flaslighta rule. Always prepare an old school set in case if doomsday =]


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## groutboy_1 (Apr 11, 2014)

"LED's FOREVER!!!"


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## groutboy_1 (Apr 11, 2014)

"You can take my LED Lights...When you pry them from under my still clicking thumb!!!"


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