# surefire rechargeable 123s



## AardvarkSagus (May 24, 2011)

*Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

I just read in the Surefire catalog that they are now offering SF branded Lithium Phosphate cells. I've tried searching around here about them and can't seem to find anything. Can anyone tell me anything about them? What do the experts here think?


----------



## Chongker (May 24, 2011)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

Sounds interesting, I wonder what advantages the new chemistry offers. Higher voltage? Better capacity? Better load characteristics?


----------



## CheepSteal (May 24, 2011)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

I saw this on the recent catalog as well, aparantly the capacity is significantly less than the primaries (the catalog says half capacity of primaries). But they're rechargeable and i assume won't void your warranty!


----------



## AardvarkSagus (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

They sound just about on par with the Tenergy LiFEP04 cells I am currently using in my A2. 3.0V 750mAh cells sounds like about like half the capacity of the 3.0V 1500mAh primaries. Plus the safer chemistry that doesn't require a protection circuit.


----------



## VegasF6 (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

I am curious do they offer or suggest a charger?


----------



## CheepSteal (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*



VegasF6 said:


> I am curious do they offer or suggest a charger?


 I think they will but we'll have to wait for them to update their website. A few items in the catalog aren't listed on the website yet like the 6PX Defender.
Someone please correct me on this if I'm wrong though.


----------



## ebow86 (Jul 25, 2011)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

I just got the new surefire catalog and seen these in there. Can anyone provide any more info than what's posted here? Are these to be a direct replacement for CR123's? In other words, could you run 2 of them in a p60 host and not instaflash the p60 or shorten the lifespan, hence a direct replacement for 2 CR123's?


----------



## ecrbattery (Jul 25, 2011)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*







It will be interesting to see how SureFire will solve the voltage problem with the lithium-phosphate batteries since LiFEP04 voltage is around 3.2V - 3.3V. I hope they will make the new rechargeable battery compatible with the P60 instead of a lame "Caution: Do Not Use with P60 Lamps" sticker.

My experience with the 2x Westinghouse LiFePo4 600 mAh AA in the SolarForce L2r P60 host was very short. Although the P60 output was awesome during the last 2 minutes of its life before going


----------



## Lightfoot98 (Jul 25, 2011)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

I thought I read somewhere that someone (mfg) was using a diode under pos cap to reduce output voltage under load, while letting it charge in conventional chargers.


----------



## ebow86 (Jul 25, 2011)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

I would like to think that these will be able to replace the CR123's that I run in my incan's right now. I'm thinking surefire is releasing these to be a direct rechargeable replacement to their CR123's, and hopefully they will be able to be run in their incan lights with no issues, running factory supported rechargeables in surefire LED's doesn't excite me much, the possibility of having factory supported rechargeables for their incans, now that exciting.


----------



## ebow86 (Jul 27, 2011)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

Doesn't seem to be much intrest in these so I will contact surefire and post back and let you guys know what they say.


----------



## NOREAT (Oct 18, 2011)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

Anyone know if these are for real? I'm thinking of getting an E2E, but if I can't use rechargables in it, it would be out of the question due to battery costs.


----------



## LEDAdd1ct (Oct 18, 2011)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

I just bought (pre-ordered) a dropin for the E2E in Custom. You could use a 17670 in there.


----------



## dstat (Feb 2, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

In case anyone was wondering I contacted surefire and they said these are not out yet but they are planning to release them later this year (2012)


----------



## snakyjake (Feb 3, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*



AardvarkSagus said:


> Plus the safer chemistry that doesn't require a protection circuit.



Be careful of the word "safer". None of the batteries require a protection circuit.


----------



## snakyjake (Feb 3, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

Here's a good link describing Lithium Phosphate:

http://www.iloveebikes.com/batteries.html

But I do wonder how much runtime is given up in comparison to using NiMH.


----------



## Robin24k (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

These should be out soon...SureFire is waiting on packaging for the kit, and then it will be available on their website. I got an unpackaged kit of these and will post some pictures tomorrow. They're made by K2 Energy and are 600mAh.


----------



## Robin24k (Feb 11, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

Some pictures...


 

​


----------



## ToyTank (Mar 31, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

Interesting those pics have 2010 on them. I'll need to get a set I can never have enough batteries.

I have been using lifepo4 for years and I have yet to kill a cell even ones that have been ran down to <1V REPEATEDLY. IMHO Lithium iron phosphate is widely considered to be as safe and green as NIMH. 2 AW or tenergy IFR16340 give me a little over 30 minutes @ 1A.

If only we could squeeze a little more energy density out of the chemistry.


----------



## JasonC8301 (Apr 11, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

I was just browsing around and saw these surefire cells. I have a 47's quark single cell that sees a lot of use. I was originally going to get a pair of AW rechargable cells for it and a nano charger but saw this. How do they compare?


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 11, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

They're not quite as energy dense as the 3.7V Li-Ion, but the benefit of LiFePO4 is inherent safety that doesn't require protection circuits.

BTW, these batteries are now available for order!

http://www.surefire.com/batteries/sf2r-kit01-charger-kit.html

http://www.surefire.com/batteries/2-pack-lfp123-rechargeable-batteries.html


----------



## Illum (Apr 11, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*



ecrbattery said:


>






Robin24k said:


> Some pictures...
> http://www.led-resource.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/SF_LFP_01.jpg
> 
> ​​



Okay... now I'm worried. Surefire's rebranding OEMs?


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 11, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

I don't know why, but yes, these items are not rebranded. Only the throw-away packing will have SureFire branding.


----------



## JasonC8301 (Apr 12, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

Thanks Robin24K. I guess I'll stick to ordering the AW cells with the protection board. I'll stick to Surefire primaries for my Surefire lights.


----------



## Glock 22 (Apr 12, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

I just ordered a set from Surefire to try out.


----------



## Shadowww (Apr 14, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*



Illum said:


> Okay... now I'm worried. Surefire's rebranding OEMs?


Yes, for example SF123A's are rebranded Panasonic CR123's


----------



## germanium (Apr 15, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

I think you will be pleasantly surprized by the real capacity of the K2 Energy batteries. They outlasted all of the regulated LiCO batteries I tested by 50% or more & ran much cooler than the regulated LiCO batteries to boot. Thier capacity rating is real as in they actually deliver that capacity.


----------



## arnold ziffle (Apr 17, 2012)

just got an email from surefire. these look familiar. made here or china?


----------



## Launch Mini (Apr 17, 2012)

I just got that email too.


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 17, 2012)

Both are Made in China. Cells originate from China, but are tested and packaged in the US.


----------



## coltchris (Apr 17, 2012)

Me too! Anybody have one or know more details?


----------



## awyeah (Apr 17, 2012)

Maybe a battery expert could chime in - are these LiFePO4? That would be nice, IIRC, LiFePO4 is a safer chemistry.

They appeared to be made by "K2 Battery" - their website is here: http://k2battery.com/products.html
Here's a link to the SureFire store: http://www.surefire.com/batteries/2-pack-lfp123-rechargeable-batteries.html

I'd be curious about how these would work in other flashlights. SureFire makes it clear that they have slightly elevated voltage (looks to be 3.2V) and that they shouldn't be used on incandescents.


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes, they are LiFePO4. Here's a runtime test of the Fury with primaries and LiFePO4:



Robin24k said:


> Runtime graph for the P2X with SF123A and LFP123A (SureFire OEM rechargeable 123A)...


----------



## edc3 (Apr 17, 2012)

Interesting. I might get a set for my Saint Minimus. 1.92Wh makes them 600mAh by my calculations.


----------



## Glock 22 (Apr 17, 2012)

I ordered a set and should be here by weeks end, and I'm also interested in how good they are. My intentions is to use them in my M31N as long as they don't go over the 3.3 volts recommended for my M31N. I will be metering them when they come out of the charger they came with because, I'm not destroying my perfect M31N, but if they do read over 3.3 volts. I can always use them in my Fury.


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 18, 2012)

They are 3.6V fresh off the charger, but that open circuit voltage quickly drops once you put a load across it. If you are really worried, you can measure the voltage under load before trying it out.


----------



## snakyjake (Apr 18, 2012)

Thanks for the graph. I'd like to see a comparison with IMR, ICR, and IFR. Then compare to NiMH.

Also consider IFR get more cycles, so not sure how the other chemistries last after 20 cycles.

I'm excited by the relative safe chemistry of LiFePO4. But I do wonder how much capacity I'm sacrificing, and how close it compares to NiMH.



Robin24k said:


> Yes, they are LiFePO4. Here's a runtime test of the Fury with primaries and LiFePO4:


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 18, 2012)

These lithium chemistries are not compatible with NiMH because they're typically 2-3 times the voltage (and come in different formats). Unfortunately, I don't have IMR or ICR batteries for comparison, but these LFP123A's have about 50% the capacity of primaries.


----------



## jasonck08 (Apr 18, 2012)

edc3 said:


> Interesting. I might get a set for my Saint Minimus. 1.92Wh makes them 600mAh by my calculations.



They are slightly over rated. They do about 530-550mAh according to the discharge graphs from K2 (I have not tested them personally).

Nothing new here and I'm not sure why the thread title is surefire rechargeable 123s when they are K2 brand, and the charger and batteries have been available for a while now.

It's quite interesting though that SF didn't decide to brand them SF's.


----------



## snakyjake (Apr 18, 2012)

Robin24k said:


> These lithium chemistries are not compatible with NiMH because they're typically 2-3 times the voltage (and come in different formats). Unfortunately, I don't have IMR or ICR batteries for comparison, but these LFP123A's have about 50% the capacity of primaries.



Not saying NiMH and lithium is compatible, but just for comparison: IFR has higher voltage, less capacity; NiMH has lower voltage, higher capacity. We can get lights that run either chemistry. Really what I'm after is if IFR negates a lot of the runtime advantages of lithium, and close to NiMH performance/capacity.


----------



## BIGLOU (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm thinking about getting these for my LX2, since 17670s dont fit without it being bored. The price is not bad also wondering why they didnt brand them SF.


----------



## awyeah (Apr 18, 2012)

I wonder how these would do in a Fenix E15.


----------



## turboBB (Apr 18, 2012)

snakyjake said:


> Not saying NiMH and lithium is compatible, but just for comparison: IFR has higher voltage, less capacity; NiMH has lower voltage, higher capacity. We can get lights that run either chemistry. Really what I'm after is if IFR negates a lot of the runtime advantages of lithium, and close to NiMH performance/capacity.



Here's a runtime I did on a V11R that can accept a broad voltage range:




Look at the TNGY LiFePO4 run (yellow) vs. the ENLP XX (purple) and ENLP (light blue) for a rough idea on output/runtime comparo. Obviously this will vary depending on the exact circuit/driver involved.


----------



## snakyjake (Apr 18, 2012)

turboBB...excellent graph!

AW LiFePO4 = 500 mAh (can't link, but check out LightHound).
K2 LiFePO4 = 600 mAh (website says mA, perhaps a typo).
Tenergy LiFePO4 = 750 mAh.

Doing some guessing (and using 750 mAh for IFR): 
IMR ≈ IFR for runtime.
Using IMR/IFR you lose 13 minutes of runtime over LCR (guessing 50 minutes).

Comparing to LCR: For the cost of 13 minutes of runtime on high, a gain in safety. 

If 13 minutes seems like a lot, running NiMH on medium output (70 lumens) appears to surpass the "safe" lithium runtime, and close to LCR runtime.

An additional advantage of NiMH (and some others) over IFR is the battery/light doesn't cut you off. Without warning, you'll be in the dark!

The trade-offs for safety and form factor do not seem to out weigh being left in the dark without warning. Maybe flashlight manufacturers can adapt and provide some sort of voltage drop warning before blackout.

Jake


http://www.tenergy.com/Site/LiFe-Cylindrical


----------



## turboBB (Apr 18, 2012)

Those TNGY's are definitely nowhere near 750mAh, they are likely closer to 400 (if even that) and the AW IFR's are just slightly worse than that (at least the ones that I have).

HOWEVER, in spite of this, I'm a huge fan as I've abused the heck out of these cells through a lot of runtime testing (often involving deep discharges) and they've held up extremely well. They have lower self-discharge than my ICR's/IMR's.

Aside from the inherently lower capacity rating and voltage, they are fantastic for lights that can utilize them.

I'm eager to see how these will perform as I've read that SF had customized the structure of their primaries (which are really the same cells as some other brands) to perform better under high current draw. Hopefully they requested some type of mod or upgrade from K2 for these too.

GLOCK22, I'd be very interested in seeing any discharge graphs if you will be creating any.

Thx!,
Tim


----------



## cland72 (Apr 18, 2012)

Am I the only one who is completely unimpressed by this setup? I mean yes, it's being endorsed by Surefire so it must be good kit, but the capacity and resulting run times are pretty bad IMHO.


----------



## snakyjake (Apr 18, 2012)

cland72 said:


> Am I the only one who is completely unimpressed by this setup? I mean yes, it's being endorsed by Surefire so it must be good kit, but the capacity and resulting run times are pretty bad IMHO.



You need to add to your criteria: capacity, runtime, output, *safety*. Regarding safety, it is impressive and the best you can get with lithium ion. I don't think Surefire wanted to compromise safety and liability. You can also add the criteria for cycle time and discharge rate. Use two RCR123's and the runtime isn't too bad.

The big problem I see with lithium-ion in today's light is the sudden blackout without ample warning. Maybe IMR or unprotected ICR don't have that problem, but at the risk of a thermal runaway.

I've been looking at the specs for NiMH lights (Zebralight)....and I'm a lot more impressed with NiMH than using primaries. Zebralight's specs compare 2000 mAh NiMH with CR123A primaries. Imagine if they compared 2500 mAh NiMH vs. LCR/IMR/IFR.

I'm really thinking that if I want rechargeable+safety, go NiMH.

Jake


----------



## turboBB (Apr 18, 2012)

cland72 said:


> Am I the only one who is completely unimpressed by this setup? I mean yes, it's being endorsed by Surefire so it must be good kit, but the capacity and resulting run times are pretty bad IMHO.



Which is precisely why I'm not passing judgement until I see some discharge curves. As I mentioned, it'd be interesting to see if SF has stipulated any mods to K2 to improve on their exisiting product.

Besides, not all products can use ICR's in which case this will be a good substitute for those that can take advantage of the higher voltage over NiMh but don't want to use primaries.


----------



## awyeah (Apr 18, 2012)

snakyjake said:


> I'm really thinking that if I want rechargeable+safety, go NiMH.



I tend to agree with you here. I only have one CR123A light, and it takes a single cell. And even that makes me a bit nervous. Everything else is AA or AAA eneloops. The only disadvantage (for me, anyway) is that you give up some brightness.


----------



## ecrbattery (Apr 18, 2012)

If you _ACCIDENTALLY_ insert a regular SureFire SF123A primary lithium cell into the charger, would the K2 charger reject the cell or keep on going?

Maybe this is why SureFire didnt brand them SF.


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 18, 2012)

It doesn't detect primaries. That would be a good reason...no need to confuse consumers. K2 batteries go with the K2 charger.


----------



## WarriorOfLight (Apr 19, 2012)

Strange thing happens to me, I ordered a charger 2xLiIon kit and two additional LiIons at a ebay shop and got a refund with this additional note:

_The product has been re-called by K2 Energy. Sorry for this. We have no stock. Please forgive us for selling, we will send a cancel request. We have refunded your money in full. Michael

_I did not find any infos on this recall. Does anone infos about it?


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 19, 2012)

Did you purchase those from "focusonsurvival" on eBay? I will check with K2 Energy and get back to you...


----------



## WarriorOfLight (Apr 19, 2012)

The rechargable batteries were from "focusonsurvival", the charger kit from "batteriesinaflash". The interesing part is both are the same shop (http://www.Batteriesinaflash.com). I see this in the PayPal details.


----------



## mcoccia (Apr 19, 2012)

I also ordered the K2 Kit plus 8 additional through Batteriesinaflash on amazon. I was advised that they were 4 short on the batteries and received a shipping notice this morning.


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 19, 2012)

They are no longer available for sale on Amazon. There's definately something going on, still waiting for a response from them...


----------



## BenChiew (Apr 20, 2012)

Which means they have not been released yet since no one has obtained them. No?


----------



## angelofwar (Apr 20, 2012)

*Surefire seems to be going "Main Stream" RC...FINALLY!!!*

Found this...awesome! I know ALOT of US companies dropped RC123's due to the all to known "Poof" issue, but it seems SF has got on board with some reliable ones.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/04/18/surefire-goes-green-ish/

I think I will be getting a set of these! Be interesting to see what they can be used with.

And just found this on the SF website...AWESOME!

http://www.surefire.com/batteries/sf2r-kit01-charger-kit.html


----------



## turboBB (Apr 20, 2012)

*Re: Surefire seems to be going "Main Stream" RC...FINALLY!!!*

Thx for the MT link. There's also an ongoing thread in the bats forum:

** link outdated (two threads now merged) - thanks tBB - Kestrel **


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 20, 2012)

They have been released and are available for order now. I got a sales sample last month for conducting runtime tests, which I posted in the P2X Fury thread.

As for the recall, K2 Energy has confirmed that they have not issued any recalls and that there are no safety issues with the LFP123A. They will check with that retailer and confirm what is going on, but my guess is that it was just an excuse for dropping the product or running out of stock.


----------



## skyfire (Apr 20, 2012)

*Re: Surefire seems to be going "Main Stream" RC...FINALLY!!!*

surefire sent me 3 or 4 emails about their new rechargeables cells.
ive tried LifePo4 cells before, which i think are similar, and get about 25% capacity compared to primaries. so ill have to wait and see some runtime tests first.
definitely good to see surefire backing these though.

what im surprised about is the price. 2 cells for $12 is very competitive.


----------



## Glock 22 (Apr 20, 2012)

:shakeheadMine was shipped on the 17th and there still not here. I tracked them with the number Surefire gave me and all I get is Electronic Shipping Info Received. They should have been here by now. I've been looking forward to trying them out.


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 20, 2012)

Sounds like USPS Parcel Post...there's usually no tracking updates until it's delivered (it's really just "Delivery Confirmation"), and delivery is guaranteed in 7-10 days, not 3-5 days like FCM.


----------



## Glock 22 (Apr 20, 2012)

As much as shipping costed it should have been shipped Priority Mail. Because a Priority Small Flat Rate Box is cheaper than what Surefire shipped it for, Surefire may need to look into better shipping methods, it's just two small batteries.

*EDIT:* The other set I ordered that I had shipped UPS just arrived. I'm charging them up right now.


----------



## Kestrel (Apr 20, 2012)

*Re: Surefire seems to be going "Main Stream" RC...FINALLY!!!*

Merging three threads ...


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 20, 2012)

GLOCK 22 said:


> As much as shipping costed it should have been shipped Priority Mail. Because a Priority Small Flat Rate Box is cheaper than what Surefire shipped it for, Surefire may need to look into better shipping methods, it's just two small batteries.
> 
> *EDIT:* The other set I ordered that I had shipped UPS just arrived. I'm charging them up right now.


I think it has to do with regulations with lithium batteries in the cargo hold. Priority Mail would most likely travel in the cargo hold of a passenger aircraft, and that's not allowed for loose lithium batteries of any kind.


----------



## Glock 22 (Apr 20, 2012)

Your right dummy me I was'nt thinking clearly at the time. PM sent.




Robin24k said:


> I think it has to do with regulations with lithium batteries in the cargo hold. Priority Mail would most likely travel in the cargo hold of a passenger aircraft, and that's not allowed for loose lithium batteries of any kind.




*EDIT: *When I got mine today and plugged them up to charge. The indicator light turned a reddish color then later on when they was to suppost to have been charged the light turned green. I put them in my Fury and they ran less than a minute. So I put them back in the charger and the light has stayed green. Has anyone else had any kind of trouble like this, or does everybody elses turn red then green when charged?


----------



## Proflash (Apr 21, 2012)

GLOCK 22 said:


> *EDIT: *When I got mine today and plugged them up to charge. The indicator light turned a reddish color then later on when they was to suppost to have been charged the light turned green. I put them in my Fury and they ran less than a minute. So I put them back in the charger and the light has stayed green. Has anyone else had any kind of trouble like this, or does everybody elses turn red then green when charged?



My batteries arrived today. When I first put mine in the charger, the light was red. As they charged, the light gradually turned orange and then green. It took quite a while for them to charge.

I get about ~50 minutes on high from my E1B before the brightness drops significantly.


----------



## 901-Memphis (Apr 21, 2012)

50 minutes for the rechargeable.... How does that compare to primary cells or other rechargeable if you got them?


----------



## Proflash (Apr 21, 2012)

901-Memphis said:


> 50 minutes for the rechargeable.... How does that compare to primary cells or other rechargeable if you got them?



Unfortunately, I do not have any other brands of 3.0v rechargeables to test with, so I cannot comment on those. I also have not tested runtimes on a primary; however, a quick search of the forums pulls up this thread which shows approximately ~80 minutes on high with a primary.


----------



## Glock 22 (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks. Mine turned the reddish once and after running them all the way down in my Fury, the light stayed green. And I knowed for sure the batteries were dead. My charger is probably bad, looks like I going to have to send it back to Surefire. But thanks again.

Nice burntime on your E1B.



Proflash said:


> My batteries arrived today. When I first put mine in the charger, the light was red. As they charged, the light gradually turned orange and then green. It took quite a while for them to charge.
> 
> I get about ~50 minutes on high from my E1B before the brightness drops significantly.



*EDIT: *~25 minutes burntime on the Fury full output.


----------



## WarriorOfLight (Apr 22, 2012)

Does anyone have a source of the LFP123 cells & charger for international buyers?


----------



## germanium (Apr 22, 2012)

Proflash said:


> My batteries arrived today. When I first put mine in the charger, the light was red. As they charged, the light gradually turned orange and then green. It took quite a while for them to charge.
> 
> I get about ~50 minutes on high from my E1B before the brightness drops significantly.



Sounds about right as these batteries do have some kick to them , much more than I expected at first given my previous experience with LiFePO4 batteries which were the original Ulralast 700mah lithium ion cells, newer ones from Ultralast are regulated LiCo . Much better than thier first lithium ion from Ultralast batteries but definately not in the same league as the K2 Energy batteries here. The Ultralast regulated LiCo batteries outlasted the other regulated LiCo batteries I tried but the K2 Energy batteries still outlasted them by 50%.


----------



## wrueckert (Apr 22, 2012)

Will be interesting to see if these will cause the same flicker on low when fresh off the charger as other LiFePO4 do in lights such as the E1L or E1B. Anyone have any experience with this yet?


----------



## Glock 22 (Apr 22, 2012)

I have to agree with you. I am also completely unimpressed by this setup. After the first charge cycle the charger tore up and, had to send the whole set up back to Surefire, and now I'm going to have to wait weeks for a replacement. Surefire should make there own charger and batteries and sell them. I know there able to do it because there stuff is totally reliable.




cland72 said:


> Am I the only one who is completely unimpressed by this setup? I mean yes, it's being endorsed by Surefire so it must be good kit, but the capacity and resulting run times are pretty bad IMHO.


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 22, 2012)

Capacity and runtime are typical for LiFePO4 16340 batteries, it's a limitation of the chemistry so there's nothing SureFire can do. It's the price you pay, reduced runtime for increased safety.

This kit was actually the reason I got into CR123 lights...quality cells backed by a reputable manufacturer (and now also a reputable distributor). There's a reason why K2 LFP123A's are 2-3 times the price of generic "1200mAh" cells or Tenergy "750mah" cells, but I'm not impressed with the build quality of the charger either. It is what it is, and it works, so I'm probably going to get a couple more LFP123A's when I need them for the MAG-TAC and ProTac HL.

BTW, the charger makes less buzzing noise on 12V DC. Maybe it also works better...


----------



## bstrickler (Apr 22, 2012)

awyeah said:


> I wonder how these would do in a Fenix E15.



I'm running regular Tenergy RCR123's in my E15. It runs fine, but gets HOT in high, so I wouldn't run it in high for more than 1 to 3 minutes.


----------



## Proflash (Apr 22, 2012)

wrueckert said:


> Will be interesting to see if these will cause the same flicker on low when fresh off the charger as other LiFePO4 do in lights such as the E1L or E1B. Anyone have any experience with this yet?



These batteries do cause flickering when fresh off the charger. I had to run my light and let it flicker for a few seconds before it stopped (I hope it didn't damage anything...). If you let the batteries sit for a while before using them, they will not cause any flickering.

For what its worth, I have not had any issues with my batteries (4 of them) or my charger. Even though the capacity of the rechargeables is less than primaries, I have not received any less than what Surefire advertised (50% runtime). I personally would rather sacrifice some runtime for the ability to use rechargeable batteries in my SF light without voiding the warranty.


----------



## germanium (Apr 22, 2012)

Robin24k said:


> BTW, the charger makes less buzzing noise on 12V DC. Maybe it also works better...



The charger runs somewhat hot when used with the 12 volt adapter but runs cool on the A.C. cord. This may seem counter-intuative but I belive the electronices for the A.C. operation are switch mode regulated but the 12 volt line is linear regulated.. Seems to be 2 completely seperate circuits unlike most chargers that just use a wallwart to lower the voltage down to 12 volts then further regulate the voltage & current down inside the charger.

My chargers have had no issues though I must say that unlike most chargers out there these days it does not test for the presence of a minimum voltage before charging, it is basically a dumb charger. If you stick a completely dead batter in it it will still try to charge it which is in some ways good & some ways not. Some chargers will force you to throw away batteries if thier voltage fall to low but not this charger, if it's chargable it will in fact charge it even if the battery was completely discharged assuming it was only recently completely discharged & not showing signs of physical damage as a result & they will show physical signs of damage if not immediately charged after complete discharge. It is bad though in the sense that I don't believe it tests chemestry & will try to charge any battery even LiCo batteries that have been damaged & could vent with flame if recharged so reasonable care is advised. Use only with LiFePO4 batteries.

I have one that my girl friend put in the charger backwards when we moved to a new place & I didn't catch it in time & it suffered physical damage. Out of curiosity I tried to recharge it & it did accept a charge but not a full charge as when new. It also did not seem to retain the charge as well. All other testing I did with the other batteries passed with flying colors, even those that I overdischarged once but not completele dischaged to 0 volts with no load. Was .9 volts with no load & still took a full charge


----------



## TranceAddict (Apr 23, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

i don't quite trust these poor quality chargers except pila ibc, hobby grade charger is always the most reliable choice


----------



## coloradogps (Apr 23, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

Will these cells charge with my Pila charger?


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 23, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

If it's designed to work with 3.2V LiFePO4, then yes. You will overcharge them in a regular 3.7V Li-Ion charger.


----------



## Glock 22 (Apr 23, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

No it want my pila charges my AW Protected RCR's cells to a little over 4.2 volts give or take. The LiFePO4 should'nt be pushed past 3.7 volts due to cell damage. I wish they would work in a pila, but you'll have to buy the charger also if your going to use these LiFePO4 batteries.



coloradogps said:


> Will these cells charge with my Pila charger?



*EDIT: *I wish the charger that came with these LiFePO4 batteries. Would be better made like how the pila is. I have no problem with the batteries it's the charger, I wish it was of a better quality, but it is what it is.


----------



## jbharrold (Apr 24, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*

I still like the old school Aviator, the one w/a 50(?) lumen lamp & three LEDs. I use RCRs in several other Surefires, but I always understood these wouldn't work in an A2; 4.2V off the charger & 3.7V under load. They were just a little too hot for the A2's circuitry.
But if these new rechargeable run about 3.2V off the charger, shouldn't they run fine in an Aviator? 
Think I recall something about it regulating current to the lamp on startup, therefore no voltage spike when first turned on, so wouldn't this protect the incandescent?
So as long as they'll fit the tube & I don't mind the reduced burn time over primaries, these should cause no harm to the A2, I hope.
Or have I missed something important here that one of the CPF experts could point out? 
(Have no idea if it makes any difference, but all my A2s are round-bodies; no flat sided versions.)


----------



## KROMATICS (Apr 24, 2012)

Robin24k said:


> Capacity and runtime are typical for LiFePO4 16340 batteries, it's a limitation of the chemistry so there's nothing SureFire can do. It's the price you pay, reduced runtime for increased safety.
> 
> This kit was actually the reason I got into CR123 lights...quality cells backed by a reputable manufacturer (and now also a reputable distributor). There's a reason why K2 LFP123A's are 2-3 times the price of generic "1200mAh" cells or Tenergy "750mah" cells, but I'm not impressed with the build quality of the charger either. It is what it is, and it works, so I'm probably going to get a couple more LFP123A's when I need them for the MAG-TAC and ProTac HL.
> 
> BTW, the charger makes less buzzing noise on 12V DC. Maybe it also works better...



Are these batteries and charger even Surefire branded? I know they are made by K2 but every picture I've seen shows the stock K2 branding.


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 24, 2012)

No. I've heard that they will package the kit with SureFire branding, but the charger and batteries retain OEM branding.


----------



## Viking (Apr 25, 2012)

jasonck08 said:


> It's quite interesting though that SF didn't decide to brand them SF's.



Surefire has a policy that states their products are made in the USA.
These batteries , as well as the charger are made in China.

I don't think Surefire will have their name on a product that is made in China.
I'm not sure , but maybe that's the reason.


----------



## AardvarkSagus (Apr 25, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Lithium Phosphate?*



jbharrold said:


> I still like the old school Aviator, the one w/a 50(?) lumen lamp & three LEDs. I use RCRs in several other Surefires, but I always understood these wouldn't work in an A2; 4.2V off the charger & 3.7V under load. They were just a little too hot for the A2's circuitry.
> But if these new rechargeable run about 3.2V off the charger, shouldn't they run fine in an Aviator?
> Think I recall something about it regulating current to the lamp on startup, therefore no voltage spike when first turned on, so wouldn't this protect the incandescent?
> So as long as they'll fit the tube & I don't mind the reduced burn time over primaries, these should cause no harm to the A2, I hope.
> ...


I've been using some Tenergy LiFePO4 cells with my Aviator for a couple of years now with no adverse affect. I'd assume these would work just excellently.


----------



## snakyjake (Apr 26, 2012)

901-Memphis said:


> 50 minutes for the rechargeable.... How does that compare to primary cells or other rechargeable if you got them?



Checkout Zebralights for CR123 and NiMH comparisons. Notice the batteries they use, runtime, and output; then consider LiFePO4 vs. Eneloop XX.

I'm still waiting more reports about what happens when the battery is near depleted. If the light cuts out quickly, that wouldn't be good.


----------



## Robin24k (Apr 26, 2012)

You can see the LiFePO4 cutoff behavior here:

http://www.led-resource.com/2012/03/surefire-p2x-fury-review/

It starts decreasing, which goes on for a couple minutes. After going out of regulation, the low output mode is still functional.


----------



## snakyjake (Apr 26, 2012)

Thanks Robin24K. It is what happens around 30 minutes that concerns me.


----------



## snakyjake (Apr 26, 2012)

What I'm seeing:

I compare lights like Zebralight SC80w. Not an exact comparison, but I know runtimes will be less with LiFePO4 than CR123A. I know runtimes will be better with Eneloop XX than 2000mAH. The difference in 17 lumens on _high_ output probably won't be noticeable, and the other output is equal. So what is the difference? From the other graphy NiMH has longer runtimes on medium than LiFePO4. The big difference I'm noticing is what happens when a battery is depleted. LiFePO4 drops like a rock and may leave you in the dark without enough warning. I had that happen to me with another battery type, and I didn't like it.

Imagine the below specs with LiFePO4 and Eneloop XX...

Zebralight SC80w

Light Output (OTF, Panasonic *CR123A*)
High: H1 *189* Lm (1.2 hrs) or H2 *77* Lm (4.2 hrs)/ *108* Lm (3 hrs) / 4Hz Strobe
Medium: M1 *34* Lm (10 hrs) or M2 *10 *Lm (28 hrs)
Low: L1 *2.1* Lm (4.2 days) or L2 *0.1* Lm (43 days)

Light Output (OTF, Sanyo *2000mAH Eneloop*)
High: H1 *172* Lm (0.9 hrs) or H2 *77* Lm (2.6 hrs)/ *108* Lm (1.9 hrs) / 4Hz Strobe
Medium: M1 *34* Lm (7 hrs) or M2 *10 *Lm (23 hrs)
Low: L1 *2.1* Lm (3 days) or L2 *0.1* Lm (29 days)

If I don't run full output, I can get more runtime on NiMH than LiFePO4.
If I don't want an abrupt cutoff when battery is near depletion, NiMH is bettern than LiFePO4.

I'm just getting this information from specs and comparing with similar (not exact) experiences. Looking forward to real comparative experiences.
Jake


----------



## Sprinkles (Apr 26, 2012)

I didn't see a datasheet for these on the k2 website, so I called. I was looking for max current discharge. I thought lfp batteries could handle a higher rate, but apparently these are only rated for continuous use at 1.2A / 2C. Isn't that less than "normal" or maybe I'm off on my thinking....?


----------



## germanium (Apr 27, 2012)

Sprinkles said:


> I didn't see a datasheet for these on the k2 website, so I called. I was looking for max current discharge. I thought lfp batteries could handle a higher rate, but apparently these are only rated for continuous use at 1.2A / 2C. Isn't that less than "normal" or maybe I'm off on my thinking....?



These are high energy types not high power. Plates are thicker than high power cells & they hold more evergy than the high power cells so they will last longer under moderate drain currents than the hoigh power type cells if they had high power in this size which they don't.

The tests done with the Fury flashlightis not indicative of performance in a more moderate powered light. When the K2's are down near thier cutoff voltage the Fury would start drawing more & more current. That current would exceed the current rating of the batteries. A more moderate powered light would not exceed the current rating of the batteries & therefor would not drop as much like a rock as they did with the Fury. They will still drop fairly quickly but you will still have time to get a back up set out & ready. when I used a piar of them in my girlfriends light which normally took 3 CR123A's I got 55 minutes strong & anouther 10 minutes of good light that was slowly deminishing. The light was still fairly bright when I took the batteries out & tested the voltage & found them to be slightly over discharged but not so far as to damage them (.9 volts).

Also if you look at the Fury test you will see that the K2's were putting out more light throughout thier regulated time & when they fell out of regulation they were just under 50% of the time of the regular non rechargable CR123A battery as when it went out of regulation. This seems to indicate to me that thier true energy is about 1/2 of the primary CR123A battery as advertized. This to me is better in performance than any of the regulated LiCo batteries I tested. Also the regulated CR123A batteries would cut off suddenly wheras these don't given reasonable cuurent demands. Note that during the test that under regulation it was putting out substantially more light at least as far as the test equipment showed even to the point of the knee where it fell off rapidly. So substantially more light for only slightly under 1/2 the time should equal about 1/2 energy stored in the K2 battery compared to the primary. I'm only going by where it knees off compared to where thw primary knees off. 

The reason I chose the knee portion to indicate the energy rather than 10% like Surefire did is that at the point that these batteries go out of regulation they are already at thier minimum voltage at which point they sould be charged as you can tell from my tests that letting it go further overdischarges them. The prmary battery should also be considered empty as well to make the comparison fair.


----------



## turboBB (Apr 27, 2012)

@snakyjake, the charateristic of a LiFePO4 dropping like a rock has more to do with how the driver is implemented and not necessarily dictated by the cell itself. For instance, while the drop was pronounced in the V11R runtime, look at this one for the M11R (also capable of broad voltage, but I didn't do NiMh yet):




No sudden fall off the cliff (if anything, one can misinterpet the LiCo's as having this behavior). So again, it depends on how the manufacturer implemented the driver. You'll need to understand the behavior of each light's driver (buck or boost or both or step down, etc.) and pair that up with each cell's discharge curve in order to make the best decision on a battery choice for a given light. This is where runtime charts and cell reviews come in handy.

Cheers,
Tim


----------



## snakyjake (Apr 27, 2012)

@TurboBB: Thanks for the chart Tim. I hope we can expect more manufacturers (Surefire for LiFePO4) to tune their drivers for LiFePO4. Looking forward to a Eneloop XX test if you get the AA extension tube (though it may not be tuned for NiMH), or maybe Sunwayman will come out with a M11 AA version tuned for NiMH.

jake


----------



## Glock 22 (Apr 28, 2012)

I was negative about these batteries at first, but now all I have is positive comments. *Except for the charger which I don't like at all. *I original purchased these to run in my M31N, so here is what I came up with. I'm running one Surefire K2 LifePO rechargable in my M31N. I've got it in a VME head, and a E1B body. I'm using the Ultrafire WF-138a charger set on the 3.0 setting. They meter 3.39 volts after a charge, and let them set for around 5 minutes they drop to 3.34 volts and stay there. The only thing is I get ~35 minutes of burntime at full output, and then it starts dropping down. But I'm O.K. with that, because there's not that big of a difference in burntime with a regular CR123a. And the K2 is the battery I plan to use in my M31N. I figured I'd pass this info on. *But try it at your own risk.*


----------



## awyeah (May 1, 2012)

Not a battery expert here - how safe are these to use in lights that are designed for regular 3.0v CR123s?


----------



## Robin24k (May 1, 2012)

If it's an LED light, there should not be any problems.


----------



## mcoccia (May 3, 2012)

I purchased the charger kit and a few spare batteries on Amazon. The charger died after a single charge cycle. I really couldn't be bothered wasting any more time with this charger so I picked up an hobby charger today.


----------



## surefire988 (May 12, 2012)

*surefire rechargeable battery set by k2battery ??? Really????*

Hi! i am a newb here:wave: and I owned a Surefire M3LT and Saint.

I got some questions about the rechargeable 123A battery set that is selling on surefire.com

SF2R-KIT01
Battery Charger + Two LFP 123A Batteries


Well......based on my limited electronic knowledge the peak voltage of rechargeable 123A battery out there (e.g. Ultrafire 3.0v) are always higher than the rated voltage. (e.g. 3.0v>3.6v, 3.6v>4.2v, etc.) This peak voltage output can last as long as minutes depends on the drain of the device. 

This is one of the major reason we don't use any kind of rechargeable 123A battery as direct replacement to run expensive flashlight because that little extra voltage will burnt the filament or fried the electronic component of a LED light....

but now........according to the description on the surefire page, this LFP123A can replace the disposable SF123A. It rated 3.2v on the marking, typically the voltage will be 0.6v higher then the rated voltage like other rechargeable 123A battery when it fully charge. So i guess when i connected 3 of these in series, the peak voltage will be (3.2v+0.6v)*3 equal to a very high 11.4v

Really???oo: My M3LT can take that much voltage? 11.4V? and the electronic inside won't be fried?

Then I go get a multi-meter to measure the voltage of some brand new SF123A batteries and other CR123A by other brand. The voltage of brand new SF123A is 3.20v to 3.25v. Some other brand is like 3.30v to 3.31v. This mean my M3LT was operating at somewhere around 10.0v but not the 9.0v I though since day one!!

So my questions are:
Does anyone bought these rechargeable 123A which “officially approved” by surefire and tested them on your surefire light?
Does anyone know the peak voltage of these rechargeable rated as 3.2v when they fully charged? (P.S. I tried to email k2battery for the discharge curve graph but no reply)
Anyone know the maximum voltage can surefire M3LT and Saint take??
If these 3.2v rechargeable really can be a direct replacement of the disposable SF123A, does this mean other brand of rechargeable (e.g. Ultrafire3.0v,3.6v when fully charged) also safe to use on my M3LT and Saint?
Thanks in advance for your tips!!:bow:


----------



## happyguy82 (May 12, 2012)

*Re: surefire rechargeable battery set by k2battery ??? Really????*

It's important to note that these K2 cells are LiFePO4 cells which have a lower peak voltage than Li Ion cells. Surefire approved the use of these cells for their LED illumination tools but still cautions against using them in their incandescent bulb bodies as their peak voltages are still slightly higher than primary CR123s.


----------



## Robin24k (May 12, 2012)

*Re: surefire rechargeable battery set by k2battery ??? Really????*

For LiFePO4 batteries, you might see 3.6V fresh off the charger, but it quickly drops down to 3.2V to 3.3V. If it's a 3-cell light, it should be fine with the extra voltage. Incandescent bulbs are sensitive to voltage and usually aren't regulated, but for LEDs that aren't direct drive, electronic circuitry will adjust for voltage differences.

Open circuit voltage is very different from operating voltage, which is almost always lower than open circuit voltage. This is what's important, but not so easy to compare or measure. In short, I think you'll be fine with using lithium phosphate rechargeables in place of primaries.


----------



## germanium (May 13, 2012)

It is too bad that the chargers are such poor quality. I haven't had any problems with mine at all but it appears that at least some of you have. The batterries themselves are great. I just wish my girlfriend hadn't damaged one of them when we moved. She put it in the charger backwards when we moved & it fully discharged to the point that it started leaking. It sill will charge & hold a charge but capacity is reduced. All the other batteries are fine & holt a full charge.


----------



## germanium (May 13, 2012)

*Re: surefire rechargeable battery set by k2battery ??? Really????*



Robin24k said:


> For LiFePO4 batteries, you might see 3.6V fresh off the charger, but it quickly drops down to 3.2V to 3.3V. If it's a 3-cell light, it should be fine with the extra voltage. Incandescent bulbs are sensitive to voltage and usually aren't regulated, but for LEDs that aren't direct drive, electronic circuitry will adjust for voltage differences.
> 
> Open circuit voltage is very different from operating voltage, which is almost always lower than open circuit voltage. This is what's important, but not so easy to compare or measure. In short, I think you'll be fine with using lithium phosphate rechargeables in place of primaries.



I would agree with you. OK except for incandecents. May work with some but must be tested. Have a spare bulb on tap if you test it & don't purchace these unless you have something else that can use them as well like an LED flashlight or camera that uses this size battery.


----------



## awyeah (May 13, 2012)

I'd be interested to see what it looks like when it leaks?

Also, it's good to know that charging them the wrong way only causes leaks and not venting/flames.


----------



## germanium (May 13, 2012)

awyeah said:


> I'd be interested to see what it looks like when it leaks?
> 
> Also, it's good to know that charging them the wrong way only causes leaks and not venting/flames.



It wasn't being charged at the time as it was unplugged & in a moving box but by puting it in backwards it discharged to 0 volts though the charger. The charger was not damaged electrically but the leakage caused some corrossion. It still charges batteries just fine & the damaged battery still charges & holds a charge but capacity is now lower as a result.


----------



## Sean (May 16, 2012)

GLOCK 22 said:


> I was negative about these batteries at first, but now all I have is positive comments. *Except for the charger which I don't like at all. *I original purchased these to run in my M31N, so here is what I came up with. I'm running one Surefire K2 LifePO rechargable in my M31N. I've got it in a VME head, and a E1B body. I'm using the Ultrafire WF-138a charger set on the 3.0 setting. They meter 3.39 volts after a charge, and let them set for around 5 minutes they drop to 3.34 volts and stay there. The only thing is I get ~35 minutes of burntime at full output, and then it starts dropping down. But I'm O.K. with that, because there's not that big of a difference in burntime with a regular CR123a. And the K2 is the battery I plan to use in my M31N. I figured I'd pass this info on. *But try it at your own risk.*



Did they ever send you a replacement charger? If so, is the new one working?


----------



## Glock 22 (May 16, 2012)

No I just told them to cancel the replacement and give my money back because I'd seen all I needed to see of the charger it is no good in my opinion. I've been using the Ultrafire WF-123a and I've had no problems with it. I'm charging the ones that Surefire sells and also a AW LifePO.




Sean said:


> Did they ever send you a replacement charger? If so, is the new one working?


----------



## BenChiew (May 16, 2012)

I found 4sevens charger really high quality and versatile. It will charge any size battery. Only problem, single bay but has even USB and cigarette lighter in car cable.


----------



## Sean (May 16, 2012)

GLOCK 22 said:


> No I just told them to cancel the replacement and give my money back because I'd seen all I needed to see of the charger it is no good in my opinion. I've been using the Ultrafire WF-123a and I've had no problems with it. I'm charging the ones that Surefire sells and also a AW LifePO.



Do the batteries that Surefire sells last any longer than the AW LifePO's?

Is the Ultrafire charger you mention the same as the one AW sells?


----------



## Glock 22 (May 16, 2012)

The Surefire one's lasts longer than the AW's by about 10 minutes, I'll PM you where I got the charger.




Sean said:


> Do the batteries that Surefire sells last any longer than the AW LifePO's?
> 
> Is the Ultrafire charger you mention the same as the one AW sells?


----------



## germanium (May 20, 2012)

GLOCK 22 said:


> The Surefire one's lasts longer than the AW's by about 10 minutes, I'll PM you where I got the charger.



10 minutes longer is 40% longer than the AW ones which is quite an acomplishment considering what most people were saying that the LiFePO4 batteries were limited chemically to current levels of charge retention equivolent to what the AW batteries were supplying. I would say that K2 energy has thier act together & I expect to see more positive things from them as far as the batteries are concerned.


----------



## Glock 22 (May 20, 2012)

Yeah I totally agree. I believe the K2 batteries have done there research, and that's why Surefire is backing them by selling them. But the only thing is if they could get a better made charger.




germanium said:


> 10 minutes longer is 40% longer than the AW ones which is quite an acomplishment considering what most people were saying that the LiFePO4 batteries were limited chemically to current levels of charge retention equivolent to what the AW batteries were supplying. I would say that K2 energy has thier act together & I expect to see more positive things from them as far as the batteries are concerned.


----------



## BIGLOU (May 20, 2012)

I had a question. How can the WF-123a charge the LiFePO4 which are 3.0V and the K2s which are 3.2V? I dont understand how does the charger know when to cut off and undercharge or overcharge. I want to get this kit but worried about the quality of the charger. For example the LiFePO4 and the K2s would not work on mhy WF-139 since the cut off would be 4.2V off the charger and would overcharge these batteries.


----------



## Glock 22 (May 20, 2012)

It has a setting for 3.0 volts and it will shut off at 3.34 volts.




BIGLOU said:


> I had a question. How can the WF-123a charge the LiFePO4 which are 3.0V and the K2s which are 3.2V? I dont understand how does the charger know when to cut off and undercharge or overcharge. I want to get this kit but worried about the quality of the charger. For example the LiFePO4 and the K2s would not work on mhy WF-139 since the cut off would be 4.2V off the charger and would overcharge these batteries.


----------



## germanium (May 21, 2012)

GLOCK 22 said:


> It has a setting for 3.0 volts and it will shut off at 3.34 volts.



3.34 volts is slightly under charging. The recommended charge voltage at end should be 3.6-3.7 volts. My charger does this & the batteries retain about 3.45 volts after setting a while & measure that even after months of storage.


----------



## Glock 22 (May 21, 2012)

Then your fine on voltage. I forgot to say I switched my charger over on the 3.6 volt setting and I got the same results as you got, so I just left it there. Just like you said after resting my K2's go to 3.34 and the Tenergy goes to 3.45 volts. I would have like to tried the charger a little more that came with the K2's but it messed up after the first charge, and that's why I went with the WF-123a charger. Your right I maybe under charging them. I'm going to leave it on the 3.6 setting and hope I get the correct charge.



germanium said:


> 3.34 volts is slightly under charging. The recommended charge voltage at end should be 3.6-3.7 volts. My charger does this & the batteries retain about 3.45 volts after setting a while & measure that even after months of storage.


----------



## MattSPL (May 21, 2012)

So does the 3.6volt charger setting suit the lifeP04's better than the 3.0v setting?
There is also the Ultrafire Wf-188 that has a 3.2v and 3.7v setting. Is it possible that the 3.2v setting would be a good one for the LifeP04's?


----------



## BIGLOU (May 21, 2012)

Thanks for the reply guys I have only played with Lithium Ion in 3.7V in 18650, RCR123, 17650 and 17500s. My Fury, G2s, G2X and 6PX all do fine with the 17650s, but I have been eyeballing the K2 kit so i can use it on my LX2 for gulity free lumens. I'll try the K2 kit charger and see how it is, if not I'll get one of them chargers with different charging settings. One more question for anyone who has the K2 kit charger. What voltage do the batteries come off the charger at?


----------



## Robin24k (May 21, 2012)

Using the 3.0V setting would not fully charge LiFePO4 batteries, and 3.6V would overcharge them (it is probably going to terminate around 4.1V).

I don't know if the WF-188 supports LiFePO4, but if it says 3.2V, then it should. However, that charger does not look convincing...for that price, I would stick with the K2 charger.


----------



## MattSPL (May 21, 2012)

Robin24k said:


> Using the 3.0V setting would not fully charge LiFePO4 batteries, and 3.6V would overcharge them (it is probably going to terminate around 4.1V).
> 
> I don't know if the WF-188 supports LiFePO4, but if it says 3.2V, then it should. However, that charger does not look convincing...for that price, I would stick with the K2 charger.



The WF-188 seems to be marketed towards LifeP04 customers on some websites, but your right about it not looking great.
I think the quality of most these chargers seems quite poor. My WF-138 arrived with 1 bay not charging.

Another option is the Xtar MP2 http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...rement-on-Xtar-MP2-charger&highlight=xtar+mp2
It seems to do ok with LifeP04's, except for starting to charge again once the voltage of the cell drops below 3.4volts.


----------



## Glock 22 (May 21, 2012)

I've tried the 3.6 setting on the Ultrafire WF-123 charger on the LifePO batteries, and they have never went up to the 4 volt range. That's with three different brands of batteries. The highest I metered them was 3.7 volts then after resting they go to 3.34 volts. Believe you me I tried this until I'm sick of the LifePO's and I've made up my mind all I'm going to run in my M31 219 is Surefire primaries. I was just trying these batteries for an experiment, maybe to help someone else out, and even risked my M31 219 with a rechargeable LifePO, how many would do that. The K2 charger is junk one charge cycle and it messed up, if they had a better charger then I might try them again. But nothing but primaries for me from here on out in my M31 219.

:shrug:


*EDIT:* Your Welcome BIGLOU.


----------



## germanium (May 21, 2012)

GLOCK 22 said:


> Then your fine on voltage. I forgot to say I switched my charger over on the 3.6 volt setting and I got the same results as you got, so I just left it there. Just like you said after resting my K2's go to 3.34 and the Tenergy goes to 3.45 volts. I would have like to tried the charger a little more that came with the K2's but it messed up after the first charge, and that's why I went with the WF-123a charger. Your right I maybe under charging them. I'm going to leave it on the 3.6 setting and hope I get the correct charge.



These are the K2's that go to 3.45 volts after setting. actually I just measured 2 of mine that are still good & voltage after 1 month setting was3.53-3.54 volts. The damaged one I have measured 3.32 volts after one month. That was the one my girlfriend damaged by overdischarging. 4.2 volts is overcharging but not so much as to damage them in short term. Will shorten thier charge cycle life though to the equivolent of standard lithium ion though. I inverted the last 2 numbers as I was going by memory the numbers were correct but wrong order. 3.54 instead of 3.45, oops sorry.


----------



## Robin24k (May 21, 2012)

You're seeing voltages of ~3.5V after charging with the K2 charger? I've got four in storage here, and they're all about 3.36V. I got them from K2 earlier this month, charged them when they arrived, then stored them since...


----------



## bluebonnet (May 23, 2012)

*Re: surefire rechargeable battery set by k2battery ??? Really????*

The SureFire LFP 123A battery and charger are currently showing temporarly out of stock/available in approximately 4 weeks on the SureFire website when I checked this morning.


----------



## kaabob (May 23, 2012)

*Re: surefire rechargeable battery set by k2battery ??? Really????*



bluebonnet said:


> The SureFire LFP 123A battery and charger are currently showing temporarly out of stock/available in approximately 4 weeks on the SureFire website when I checked this morning.



Interesting. It was in stock a day ago (around 24 hours ago).
Fortunately I went to a Surefire dealer earlier today and ordered myself 4 batteries.

They must be flying off the shelves!
I hope people know that the bundled K2 Energy chargers (SF2R-KIT01) aren't that great...


----------



## Robert_M (May 23, 2012)

I'm still trying to buy some K2 LiFePO4 batteries. In the meantime I decided to buy some Tenergy LiFePO4 batteries at a local store and do a run-time test on my Fury. 

*Update*: Re-ran test down to 10% of max light output level. So I get 22 minutes using Tenergy versus 30 minutes for K2. The K2 batteries have 36% more capacity!


----------



## Robin24k (May 23, 2012)

Looks like the K2 Energy LFP123A is quite a bit better...I got a full 30 minutes with LFP123A's in the Fury.

Tenergy LiFePO4 123A's have a minimum capacity of 450mAh (but are called 750mAh), which seems to be more like 400mAh in practice...glad I didn't get any of those.


----------



## MattSPL (May 23, 2012)

Robin24k said:


> You're seeing voltages of ~3.5V after charging with the K2 charger? I've got four in storage here, and they're all about 3.36V. I got them from K2 earlier this month, charged them when they arrived, then stored them since...



I've been doing some testing with AW LifeP04's and GTL 3v li-ions. I haven't managed to get hold of any K2's yet.

Charging the AW's on the 3v setting on an ultrafire charger see's them come off the charger at about 3.4v. This gives 20 minutes runtime on a Malkoff M31.
Using the GTL charger(3.6v) see's them come off charge at 3.55v and gives 27minutes runtime.
The voltage settles to around 3.34v after charging.

The GTL 3v li-ions voltage behaves like the lifep04's off the charger and after resting. They give 25min runtime.

I hope to get some k2 lifep04's to try also.


----------



## snakyjake (May 23, 2012)

I thought the thread LiFePO4 abuse tolerance & overall safety was interesting.



Battery Guy Post #2 said:


> Cells made with LiFePO4 positive electrodes use the same negative electrode, and therefore are neither more or less tolerant to overdischarge.





Battery Guy Post #5 said:


> You can discharge a lithium-ion cell under load to ~1 V without causing much damage, as you said. This is true for all lithium-ion cells, and has nothing to do with the cathode. The real damage comes when the cell is slowly discharged below 2 V and sits there for a long time. ANY lithium-ion cell will be hurt by this kind of treatment. However, LiFePO4 cells tend to fail in a more benign manner than other lithium-ion cells because they have such a low energy density.
> Don't buy into the hype. LiFePO4 has its uses and will always be around as an option that works well in some applications, but it is definitely not the future of lithium-ion.


----------



## kaabob (May 24, 2012)

GLOCK 22 said:


> I've tried the 3.6 setting on the Ultrafire WF-123 charger on the LifePO batteries, and they have never went up to the 4 volt range. That's with three different brands of batteries. The highest I metered them was 3.7 volts then after resting they go to 3.34 volts. Believe you me I tried this until I'm sick of the LifePO's and I've made up my mind all I'm going to run in my M31 219 is Surefire primaries. I was just trying these batteries for an experiment, maybe to help someone else out, and even risked my M31 219 with a rechargeable LifePO, how many would do that. The K2 charger is junk one charge cycle and it messed up, if they had a better charger then I might try them again. But nothing but primaries for me from here on out in my M31 219.
> 
> :shrug:
> 
> ...





germanium said:


> These are the K2's that go to 3.45 volts after setting. actually I just measured 2 of mine that are still good & voltage after 1 month setting was3.53-3.54 volts. The damaged one I have measured 3.32 volts after one month. That was the one my girlfriend damaged by overdischarging. 4.2 volts is overcharging but not so much as to damage them in short term. Will shorten thier charge cycle life though to the equivolent of standard lithium ion though. I inverted the last 2 numbers as I was going by memory the numbers were correct but wrong order. 3.54 instead of 3.45, oops sorry.





MattSPL said:


> The WF-188 seems to be marketed towards LifeP04 customers on some websites, but your right about it not looking great.
> I think the quality of most these chargers seems quite poor. My WF-138 arrived with 1 bay not charging.
> 
> Another option is the Xtar MP2 http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...rement-on-Xtar-MP2-charger&highlight=xtar+mp2
> It seems to do ok with LifeP04's, except for starting to charge again once the voltage of the cell drops below 3.4volts.


Grabbed a pair of LFP123A's and a XTAR MP2... just have to make sure

a) I take out the batteries once it starts to dim -- the MP2 does not charge when cells are < 1.5V. I'd be SOL if that ever happens. I'd have to wait to get another charger while that battery slowly shortens its lifespan...
b) Hopefully the K2's I get will stay at >3.4v or else the MP2 will keep recharging them once it dips below 3.4V. Shouldn't be a problem but would be annoying (or a thot that will always be in the back of my head)


----------



## MattSPL (May 24, 2012)

snakyjake said:


> I thought the thread LiFePO4 abuse tolerance & overall safety was interesting.



Interesting read. Thanks.


----------



## MattSPL (May 24, 2012)

kaabob said:


> Grabbed a pair of LFP123A's and a XTAR MP2... just have to make sure
> 
> a) I take out the batteries once it starts to dim -- the MP2 does not charge when cells are < 1.5V. I'd be SOL if that ever happens. I'd have to wait to get another charger while that battery slowly shortens its lifespan...
> b) Hopefully the K2's I get will stay at >3.4v or else the MP2 will keep recharging them once it dips below 3.4V. Shouldn't be a problem but would be annoying (or a thot that will always be in the back of my head)



I also have an MP2 on its way. My Ultrafire charger is faulty, and the GTL isn't good i don't think. It only has a single Led, so i'm guessing it doesn't charge each bay separately.
The cell voltage seems to creep back up to about 2-2.5volts, even if you let it run down below 1.5v by mistake, so the MP2 should be ok there.


----------



## kaabob (Jun 4, 2012)

*Surefire Rechargeable K2 Energy LFP123A RECALLED!*

I got a call from a Surefire dealership that the latest batch of K2 Energy LFP123A's have been _recalled_ because they not meet Surefire's quality standards.
They have been out for a year though -- I hope this doesn't happen again.


----------



## awyeah (Jun 4, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Rechargeable K2 Energy LFP123A RECALLED!*



kaabob said:


> I got a call from a Surefire dealership that the latest batch of K2 Energy LFP123A's have been _recalled_ because they not meet Surefire's quality standards.
> They have been out for a year though -- I hope this doesn't happen again.



SureFire's website says they're "temporarily out of stock" and estimated availability is "approximately four weeks."


----------



## BIGLOU (Jul 22, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Rechargeable K2 Energy LFP123A RECALLED!*

Sorry to bring up this thread I didnt want to start another one, but does anyone know whats up with these being "temp. out of stock" SF website states availabilty is 4 weeks but I have seen that on their website site for like 8 weeks or more. Looks like SF is doing a recall instead of dropping the product and giving K2 a second chance to get it right. I checked the K2 website but saw the kit costs more than SF sells them for. I want to get this kit for my non flashaholic bro.


----------



## MattSPL (Jul 23, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Rechargeable K2 Energy LFP123A RECALLED!*



BIGLOU said:


> Sorry to bring up this thread I didnt want to start another one, but does anyone know whats up with these being "temp. out of stock" SF website states availabilty is 4 weeks but I have seen that on their website site for like 8 weeks or more. Looks like SF is doing a recall instead of dropping the product and giving K2 a second chance to get it right. I checked the K2 website but saw the kit costs more than SF sells them for. I want to get this kit for my non flashaholic bro.



If you can get hold of the K2 cells, just buy an Xtar mp2 charger for them. It seems to be much better quality than some of the other chargers, and has a 3v setting for the lifeP04's.


----------



## Robert_M (Jul 23, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Rechargeable K2 Energy LFP123A RECALLED!*



BIGLOU said:


> Sorry to bring up this thread I didnt want to start another one, but does anyone know whats up with these being "temp. out of stock" SF website states availabilty is 4 weeks but I have seen that on their website site for like 8 weeks or more. Looks like SF is doing a recall instead of dropping the product and giving K2 a second chance to get it right. I checked the K2 website but saw the kit costs more than SF sells them for. I want to get this kit for my non flashaholic bro.



I gave up trying to get the K2 cells for now; they're too expensive (K2 shipping is way too high) and hard to find. I'm using Tenergy cells & charger instead. They last about 38 minutes at full output brightness in a 6PX Pro and about 20 minutes in a Fury. See here for run time graphs.


----------



## kaabob (Jul 23, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Rechargeable K2 Energy LFP123A RECALLED!*

I put my money down at a local authorized reseller and am also waiting for them to come back in stock. I might just get a refund and pick up a few tenergy's.


----------



## MattSPL (Jul 24, 2012)

*Re: Surefire Rechargeable K2 Energy LFP123A RECALLED!*

I've pretty much given up on the LifeP04's now, unless i need their lower voltage for a particular light.

I bored my C2 for an 18650, and have started using 3.7v 16340's in a smaller single cell light.


----------



## bluebonnet (Aug 10, 2012)

*Re: surefire rechargeable battery set by k2battery ??? Really????*

Edit: The SureFire LFP 123A is still showing temporarly out of stock on the SF website today. I was incorrect in stating the batteries were back in stock and I apologize.


----------



## gobadgrs (Aug 12, 2012)

*Re: surefire rechargeable battery set by k2battery ??? Really????*



bluebonnet said:


> Edit: The SureFire LFP 123A is still showing temporarly out of stock on the SF website today. I was incorrect in stating the batteries were back in stock and I apologize.



Have you found anywhere else on the web to buy the set? I've been unsuccessful looking anywhere else but the SF website.


----------



## tonywalker23 (Aug 28, 2012)

*Surefire rechargeable battery kit*

i havent seen anything said really about the new surefire rechargeable unless im just missing them or in the wrong section. i got mine in the mail today. if anyone wants i can post pictures of the unboxing or packaging if interested.


----------



## Kestrel (Aug 28, 2012)

*Re: Surefire rechargeable battery kit*

Three threads on this topic have been merged.


----------



## kaabob (Aug 29, 2012)

tonywalker23 said:


> i havent seen anything said really about the new surefire rechargeable unless im just missing them or in the wrong section. i got mine in the mail today. if anyone wants i can post pictures of the unboxing or packaging if interested.



Did you purchase from Surefire website recently?

Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using Tapatalk 2


----------



## tonywalker23 (Aug 29, 2012)

kaabob said:


> Did you purchase from Surefire website recently?
> 
> Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using Tapatalk 2



I ordered from Surefire site. Got those, some ear plugs, and the khaki hat with the Surefire logo. Was expecting the items to come except for the battery kit bc of the disclaimer on the site. Ended up getting war plugs and battery kit and was told the hat would be 3-4 weeks away. Strange. Maybe they're leaving the disclaimer up to keep battery orders managble?


----------



## Ronco647 (Aug 29, 2012)

Hello, im also in a switchover, going to cr123 rechargeables, replacing the discontinued B65 battery, this has been very confusing. Getting a led replacement that wont blow up....


----------



## kaabob (Sep 4, 2012)

A tip for those who are thinking of purchasing from a Surefire dealer B&M store -- they now charge shipping and receiving fees that are passed on to the dealer and then to you. You might as well order online and save the dealer the hassle. Even the dealer thought this was awkward as they usually get everything else in bulk and discounted, but these battery packs are excluded.

Perhaps because they are from K2, they don't have the same leverage or agreements as the other Surefire products.

Anyone know of alternative retailers that charge less for shipping than does the Surefire online store?

Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using Tapatalk 2


----------



## awyeah (Sep 10, 2012)

So.... now that these have been out for a while.... how is everyone liking them? I wouldn't mind getting into multi-CR123 flashlights if these turn out to work well.


----------



## Sean (Sep 10, 2012)

awyeah said:


> So.... now that these have been out for a while.... how is everyone liking them? I wouldn't mind getting into multi-CR123 flashlights if these turn out to work well.



I've had mine since Surefire first had them in stock and they have been working great for me in multi-cell lights.


----------



## snakyjake (Sep 10, 2012)

Anyone know why Surefire isn't keeping the battery/kit in stock?


----------



## kaabob (Sep 11, 2012)

snakyjake said:


> Anyone know why Surefire isn't keeping the battery/kit in stock?



Not sure but the charger is trash. Might as well just get the cells individually and get a Xtar MP2 charger instead.

Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using Tapatalk 2


----------



## snakyjake (Sep 18, 2012)

Even though Surefire says the kit is out of stock, I ordered one, and received the kit a few days later.


----------



## tarsier22 (Jan 23, 2013)

WarriorOfLight said:


> Does anyone have a source of the LFP123 cells & charger for international buyers?



did you find any?lm interested too
regards tarsier22


----------



## technopriest (Jan 26, 2013)

Can these be charged with the i4 Intellicharger?


----------



## Robin24k (Jan 26, 2013)

I wouldn't recommend it, that's a lithium-ion charger, which will overcharge 3.2V lithium-phosphates.


----------



## tarsier22 (Feb 10, 2013)

l tink xtar mp2 at 3.0v will make work
regards styalianos


----------

