# 123 Battery Shoot Out



## SilverFox

123 Battery Shoot Out

Here is another series of tests, this time looking at Lithium CR123 primary cells. These are not rechargeable.

I picked a variety of batteries. My list is far from exhaustive, however I think this is a good representation. If anyone has a brand that I have missed and wants to donate them to the cause, get in touch with me. I’ll test them and post the results.

Battery Capacities:
I am not sure at what load Lithium battery capacities are rated at. I know that many of our lights draw 1 to 2 amps, so I decided to test at those rates. Energizer rates their 123 cells at 1.5 Ah for reference.

Graph Nomenclature:
Ah = Amp Hours
Wh = Watt Hours
M = Minutes

The battery line up:
Duracell Ultra
Energizer 
Sanyo
SureFire
Streamlight
BatteryStation
12/07 BatteryStation now Made in USA
Maxell Gold
GI
RayOVac
Titanium
Marathon
Golston
4/22/05 New Titanium Cells
8/6/05 New batch of Golston Cells
6/08 Panasonic 1550 mAh Made in USA
3/09 Panasonic 2017 from Europe
3/09 Fuji 2012 from Europe

A big thanks to JohnN and Dano for providing additional batteries for me to test - Thanks.
Another big thanks to Wayne at AmondoTech for providing additional batteries for me to include in the testing - Thanks.
Another big thanks to Chevrofreak for providing additional batteries for me to include in the testing - Thanks.
Another big thanks to Dae for providing some additional Golston cells for testing - Thanks.
Thanks to VWTim for picking up some Everlast Go Power cells for testing.
Thanks to Cdosrun for sending the Panasonic and Fuji cells from Europe.


The graphs:

Edit: 0.5 Amp Rate






123 at 1.0 Amp Rate





123 at 2.0 Amp Rate





Test conditions:
All tests were conducted at room temperature of about 68 degrees Fahrenheit utilizing a West Mountain Radio CBA.
All batteries are fresh stock.

Test Notes:
The tests at the 1.0 Amp Rate revealed a moderate battery temperature increase. The batteries ended up in the 85-88 degree F. range. The battery temperatures shot up during the 2.0 Amp Rate testing. I have my CBA set to terminate the test when the battery temperature exceeds 115 degrees F. The SureFire battery test was terminated early because the cell temperature exceeded 115 degrees. I watched the cell temperature continue to rise, after the test had been terminated, until it leveled out at 122 degrees. The SureFire cells were the only ones that exceeded 115 degrees, but all of the others were very close. 

Conclusions:
These tests revealed some differences at higher current draws, but at lower levels, the differences seem minimal. 

The Energizer cells were at the bottom of the pack. These were fresh cells and I am not sure what is going on with them. I would normally do additional tests on them, but I need to find a more reasonable source for them than the local store. 

The eye opener for me was the temperature increase of the batteries when testing at 2 amps. I would venture an opinion that if a light draws 2 amps or more, thermal management is going to be difficult during long runs. The lamps and LED’s are producing heat, and at these rates we have the batteries producing heat as well. Lithium cells have a thermal shut down protection system, and this may shed some light on why sudden shutdown occurs with some lights.

4/22/05 Wayne at AmondoTech was disappointed in the performance of his Titanium 123 cells and decided to do something about it. He met with the manufacturer and had them change the formulation to provide improved performance. He was successful. These new cells may not be the best at 0.5 amps, but lead the pack at 2.0 amps without heating problems.

Here is another graph of these cells. I am very impressed that Wayne made it a point to come up with a better product and delivered on this.





Dae sent me some Golston cells for testing. These cells performed better than the ones that Chevrofreak sent me, but there is still some inconsistencies. Here is the test results on these cells. The erratic results from the 1.0 amp test was caused by the cell, not the test equipment.





People have been asking about CR2 cells. I don’t use them, but happened to come across some Titanium CR2’s, thanks to Wayne at AmondoTech. I believe these are rated at 800 mAh.

Here is the data.






You may wonder why I did a second run on the cell that had previously been tested at 0.75 amps. HarryN is developing a CR2 light as are some others. These lights can operate at different levels. It just happens that Harry is thinking of a turbo mode at 700 mA, and after running the test at 0.75 amps, I noticed that the voltage had rebounded back to 2.8 volts. It struck me that it would be interesting to see what happens if you do another run at a lower draw. This means that you can run the light in turbo mode until the batteries die, wait 20 minutes or so, then still have usable light at a lower level. In this case the turbo mode lasted a little over 55 minutes, after which you still had over 96 minutes of run time at 0.10 amps.

My combined graphs are getting cluttered and are difficult to read. I will add future cell results with individual graphs and you can compare the Ah Wh and M values to compare.

Here are some Everlast Go Power cells that VWTim picked up for me to check out. At $0.99 each, they seem to be solid performers.







It seems that Sanyo has some CR123 cells that are being made in China. I have been sent some of these cells for testing and it appears that they do not perform as well as the ones made in Japan.

Here are some graphs to compare...

Sanyo Made in Japan







Sanyo Made in China







Vew sent me some Tenergy CR123 cells to test. Thanks.

I checked them on the ZTS tester and got mixed results. Out of 10 cells, 8 showed 100%, 1 was at 80% and 1 was at 60%. These results are from cells that tested at 100% on the ZTS tester. The cells seemed to perform quite well.






Kevin at BatteryStation sent me a box of his new Made in USA CR123 cells. Not only are then very strong performers, but they are consistent from cell to cell. The cells tested at 2 and 2.5 amps got over 140 F right at the end of the test, but I figure most people will not use a cell down to 1.0 volts in a continuous run.

Here is the graph.






David at the Fenix-Store sent me some of the Panasonic CR123 cells that he sells on his site. These are rated at 1550 mAh which is higher than most other brands of cells. These cells did very well at 0.5 and 1.0 amps, however they started to drop off at 2.0 amps. 

Here is the graph.






Cdosrun sent me some Panasonic and Fuji cells from Europe to check out. I have been trying to get this testing done and the data put up here for some time now, and things just have been very busy. Finally, the testing is done and here is the data.

The Panasonic cells had a 2017 date on them and were strong performers. They even performed well at a 2.5 amp draw, but since I only had one cell to test at that rate, I didn’t add a graph for it. 

Here is the Panasonic 2017 graph.






The Fuji cells had a 2012 date on them. They did well at lower discharge rates, but exceeded the maximum temperature (140 F) during the 2 and 2.5 amp discharges. The discharge curve at 2 amps also has a little dip in it suggesting a little higher internal resistance.

Here is the Fuji 2012 graph.






12/2006 This round of testing is to check out the ability of the CR123 cell to handle a constant 2.5 amp draw. There are several high output lamp assemblies that draw close to that. If you do a run time test on a SureFire M6, the cells will see this load.

LED61 sent me a bunch of cells for this testing. Thanks Alberto. I also added in some other brands to add to the test data.

Four cells of each brand were tested. Each cell was checked on the ZTS tester and found to be at 100%. You will notice that the initial voltage is close to the same for each cell. In multi cell lights, we have advocated using a load test to match the cells to avoid cell mismatch that can cause problems.

Keep in mind that none of the brands recommend a constant current draw this high. Some are OK with a heavy pulse load, but none of them are rated for a constant heavy current draw.

There is some lag in my CBA temperature probe, so I usually set it at 120 F. This test required raising that to 140 F, and even then some of the cells terminated on high temperature. All of the cells got hot during the test.  This current draw is pushing the limits of the CR123 cells. Any weakness of the cell is exaggerated at this high current draw. 

Keep in mind that the testing is done on a single cell that is open to the air. Inside a flashlight with other cells, things are expected to get hotter than what I am seeing. None of the shrink wrap distorted during these tests, but that has been reported by others who have done extended runs with these lights.

I was thinking that the best cells for this high current rate would be those that were consistent from cell to cell. The voltage retention under load is also important since many of these high current draw lights are direct drive. Higher voltage means a brighter light.

I will add graphs as the data gets sorted out. The list of cells, so far, includes Titanium, BatteryStation, Sanyo (made in Japan), Panasonic (made in USA), SureFire, Energizer, Duracell Procell, and Duracell Ultra.

I will start by just showing the results for each of the 4 cells of each brand. I will save any conclusions for later.

The Titanium CR123 cells have had some problems. There was a bad batch that was supposed to have been removed from the market, however, I keep hearing of people ending up with cells that won't pass a ZTS test at 100%. I ordered 12 cells and they all checked out OK on the ZTS tester. Here is the test results at 2.5 amps.

I must add that the battery manufacturer of the Titanium cells does not recommend using their cells at this high a constant current draw. I believe they also caution against using their cells in higher than 3 cell lights.







Here is the results from the Sanyo CR123 (Made in Japan) cells. We have found that the Sanyo cells made in China seem to have around 10 - 15% less capacity than those made in Japan, but at this high rate, I wont speculate a guess as to how well the made in China cells will do. I don't have any of the Sanyo cells from China, so I can not do a direct comparison. We will just have to speculate...  

If anyone has 4 Sanyo CR123 cells they would like to send me, I would be happy to include them in this test. PM me for shipping information.

Cell 1 terminated early due to high temperature. All four cells hit over 140 F, but cell 1 hit it a few seconds before it hit the low voltage cut off. 

Sanyo also does not recommend using their cells at this high a constant current draw.







BatteryStation has been a long time supporter of CPF, and many use their cells. Kevin has worked with the manufacturer to give us good performance and still offers a discount price for the members of CPF. Kevin has gone the extra step of individually testing each cell with the ZTS tester in an effort to add another layer of quality to the cells he sells.

I asked Kevin about testing the BatteryStation cells at 2.5 amps. He does not recommend his BatteryStation cells in applications that draw 2.5 amps continuously. As a matter of fact, Kevin provides a box of 12 SureFire cells free with every SureFire M6 that he sells. He stated that if you are going to continuously use a light that draws that high a current, you should use the batteries recommended by the manufacturer of the light, and let them worry about any liability issues.

Kevin also mentioned that BatteryStation cells are continuing to change. His next batch of cells have all stainless steel construction and, I believe, a new PTC. These are safety related items and will probably not impact performance in any way. Kevin went on to inform me that in the rare event of a "venting with flame" incident, a stainless steel can will not ignite where the aluminum possibly could get hot enough to ignite.

I have also heard a rumor that BatteryStation cells may no longer be made in China in the future... perhaps they may even be manufactured in the US.

Here are the test results of the BatteryStation cells at 2.5 amps. Note that cells 2, 3, and 4 terminated early due to the temperature exceeding 140 F.







SureFire recommends using their batteries in their lights. I guess this means that the SureFire batteries are manufactured in a way that evens out the tail end of the discharge curve. Many people have questioned SureFire about running the M6 for a constant 19 minutes, and have been repeatedly told that it is OK to do that. Here is the SureFire CR123 data.







Here is the data from some Panasonic CR123 cells that were made in the USA. These were individually packed and it looks like I got two separate batches.







Here is the data from the Energizer cells. I don't know what happened to cell 3, but it seemed to behave differently.







There has been some discussion that Duracell Pro Cell and Ultra CR123 cells are the same. Here is how they perform under this 2.5 amp load.

First the Pro Cell test data.







Now the Ultra cell test data.







From this limited test data, I can see why SureFire used the Duracell Ultra cells when they developed the M6. These seem to be the most consistent from cell to cell. 

Bill Waites wondered if a different batch of SureFire cells might behave differently under these high loads. The cells I tested had a 2013 date on them and he had some that had a 2016 date on them. He sent me 4 to test. Thanks Bill.

It appears that these are pretty close, but 2 of them got hotter than the other two.

Here is the data.







CPF memeber Markcm sells CR123 cells from his web site at e-lectronics.net. All 4 of these cells terminated early due to temperatures exceeding 140 F. In spite of that, they seem to be strong performers.







The new BatteryStation cells did very good during the normal testing, so I thought I would give them a try at 2.5 amps.

While they were consistent from cell to cell, they got hot. 3 of the 4 cells shown exceeded 140 F at the end of the test. I ran another batch of 4 cells, and all 4 exceeded 140 F. I ran a third batch of 4 cells and 2 of them exceeded 140 F. 

Performance is good, but if you use these in a SureFire M6, run the light continuously, and run the light past where it just starts to dim down, you can expect to have to deal with hot cells.

Here is the data.






Tom


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## milkyspit

Tom, my hat's off to you my friend! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

This is fantastic data you've collected, and the graphs themselves show some subtleties. For example, they show that stats alone don't tell the whole story... Ah, Wh, and minutes of runtime do provide some useful information, but they don't demonstrate that one particular brand will remain at a higher voltage during most of its runtime than will another brand. IMHO, the most important thing is that the battery will remain at the highest possible voltage under load, for as long a time as possible. For me, that appears to mean BatteryStation cells, but of course other folks will have other preferences.

You also may have shed some light on the SureFire sudden death mystery. If those cells continued to rise in temperature even after testing on them ceased, the cells could conceivably trip the thermal shutdown protection system AFTER the flashlight has been turned off, which explains why we've had various reports of people using a flashlight just fine, turning it off and setting it on the mantle, only to find the following morning that the light wouldn't even turn on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I do think for high drain lights, it makes sense to surround the 123 cells with aluminum or perhaps even some sort of copper sleeve, to "wick" away some of the heat the cells generate. Lights that have the cells in plastic or rubber tubes of various sorts would seem to lend themselves to shorter runtime and a higher incidence of the "sudden death" syndrome.

I can think of a couple other brands that might be worth testing...

* Panasonic (seem to be very good performers in general)
* Tekcell (mediocre performers)

Thanks again, Tom! You rule! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

A little off topic: does anyone know of a link to a good cutaway graphic and perhaps descriptive information about what's inside a 123 cell, and how it works?


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## KevinL

Tom, FANTASTIC job on those test results! It's awesome to see the Batterystation cells coming out and doing a great job of supplying power even at the extremely demanding 2A load. Looks like I'll pick up another 20 of them soon /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Mark2

Great work! Thanks!


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## Roy

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wow.gif

Great job!! Funny how your plots look like my runtime plots! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Allways thought that I should have called them "Battery Run-Time Plots"....would have cut down on the confusion of what to call the vertical axis.


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## SilverFox

Hello Roy,

I have noticed that as well.

Tom


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## SilverFox

I have been looking at the results for a while now and was wondering:

Who makes Streamlight batteries?

Who makes SureFire batteries?

Who makes BatteryStation batteries?

Tom


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## NewBie

Upon disassembly of the Surefire and the Engergizer E^2 cells, I cannot tell the difference between the two. Even the manufacturing marks, the green "washer" on the bottom, vent hole in the top, hex cutout washer on top, identical finish on the surface of the washers, cell crimping, cell marking, etc. are identical.

Here is an Energizer and Surefire photo:





Though at 1.5A loads I tested at, through ten tests, showed the Energizer slightly on top, maybe it was just the age of the cells in both your tests and mine. The Energizers had the 2014 date, the Surefires were fresh from Surefire. The Duracell Ultras I tested showed better results everywhere, and the regular Duracell 123 was slighly less than the Energizer/Surefire 123.


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## udaman

Very interesting results! I note that Li-Ion rechargeable LG 18650 2400ma cells have less of a problem with maintaining voltage and capacity under 1C discharge; of course they are twice the size, and not a one-shot deal.

Just curious, but are there many *single cell* LED lights that draw 2a? With exception of the Energizer cells, it would seem that all the rest have equivalent capacity and voltage sag-basically you can buy whatever is convenient and cost effective, for 1a loads.

Since Surefire, batterystation cells are relatively less costly, I wonder how 2 of these tested in series will perform (any significant difference between single cell test results), since most incandescent lights will be 2 or more cells?

testing down to 1v will get indication of useful runtime for LED's only. 2v is pretty much the end of useful runtime/capacity for non-regulated incandescent lights.

Surefire are made in the USA...by?

Sanyo made by Sanyo in Japan?

Batterystation...made in China?

Umm, is it just a function of test equipment, that the starting voltage on the 2a test is much lower than the 1a test? I'm assuming no load voltages are about the same between the fresh cells?

Energizers are smaller in diameter than the rest of these cells? At least they are smaller in diameter compared to Duracell.


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## NewBie

[ QUOTE ]
*udaman said:*
Just curious, but are there many *single cell* LED lights that draw 2a? With exception of the Energizer cells, it would seem that all the rest have equivalent capacity and voltage sag-basically you can buy whatever is convenient and cost effective, for 1a loads.

Since Surefire, batterystation cells are relatively less costly, I wonder how 2 of these tested in series will perform (any significant difference between single cell test results), since most incandescent lights will be 2 or more cells?

Surefire are made in the USA...by?

Energizers are smaller in diameter than the rest of these cells? At least they are smaller in diameter compared to Duracell. 

[/ QUOTE ]

The differences between the Energizer cells and the Surefire cells are a function of the batch they made in, from what I've tested at 1.5A loads.

With the wrappers off, I can not tell the difference from a Surefire to an Energizer, physically, mechanically, or electrically. Everything is the same. 

So, the Surefires must be made by Energizer.


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## Bullzeyebill

No expert here, but sag of 123's due to higher amp drain (2A's) woould explain lower starting voltage.

Bill


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## NewBie

Yes, the higher load does cause the initial voltage to drop significantly.






The Surefires and Energizers consistently produced the results in yellow above, with the Surefires consistently slightly lower than the Energizers. Unfortunately, across several boxes of the SureFires, they were all dated the same.

The Duracells always produced curves more like the blue line.

With any mod I did to my circuit, the Surefires and Energizers consistently underperformed the Duracells. I bought various cells from Safeway, Rite-Aid, Fry's, Sportsman's Warehouse. The Surefires were all marked 05-2014.

The circuit I was using there is close to a NextGen 1000, but a little higher efficiency, since the ARC4 provides more room for components, I was able to take advantage of this room for higher efficiency enhancements.

Personally, I feel a person would want to run cells from multiple batches from each manufacturer before drawing any hard conclusions. And if they are like any other manufacturing process, what you get one month may be different six months from now.


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## elgarak

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif

Very nice results! Good to see that batterystation's hold up quite well -- have to send out the next order soon.

Now we just have to find out what goes on with the Energizers, in light of the suspected Energizer/Surefire connection.

Where can you get the Streamlight batteries? How much are they?


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## jayflash

Thank you for your effort and the education, Tom. You represent what's so great about the CPF - the sharing of time and information.

Streamlight did well in another test, some months ago and they performed excellently in my TL-3. According to your test this could be a winner for high drain applications.

Although messy, might spreading thermal grease to the cell sides help to conduct heat for long on time use? Would a water soluble type as is used for ultrasounds be feasible, or plain old KY (NOT Kentucky /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) jelly? It may be that some other problems, such as migration, may prevent the addition of said goo from being a viable option. Just kinda thinkin' again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif


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## SilverFox

Hello Elgarak,

My Streamlight batteries came from Sportsman's Warehouse and cost $3.99 for two.

Tom


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## John N

This is great info!

Thanks very much for doing this!

Any chance of talking you into a very low amp comparison? It would be great to see these same batteries at .25 and .5 amps or something like that.

I am willing to send batteries for this effort. I have Surefire, Sanyo, and I have some Streamlight on order. If you PM me with your address I'll send you whatever would be helpful.

BTW, does anyone know what limitations there are, if any for shipping Li batteries?

Again, thanks!

-john


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## SilverFox

Hello John,

At this time, my CBA's minimum discharge rate is 0.5 amps. West Mountain Radio has an upgrade in the works to test at lower rates and as soon as that is available, I will send my unit in for an upgrade.

I can do a run at 0.5 amps, but the only way to go below that is to run two cells in parallel. I have done that, but have had some consistancy problems.

PM sent.

Tom


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## John N

For those of you who have bad eyes like I do , here are the graphs at 300%: [large graphs]

-john


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## John N

Thanks Tom,

I'll send you some batteries.

-john


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## JonSidneyB

Nice work guys.


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## Kiessling

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
great work man!
bernhard


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## js

[ QUOTE ]
The eye opener for me was the temperature increase of the batteries when testing at 2 amps. I would venture an opinion that if a light draws 2 amps or more, thermal management is going to be difficult during long runs. The lamps and LED’s are producing heat, and at these rates we have the batteries producing heat as well. Lithium cells have a thermal shut down protection system, and this may shed some light on why sudden shutdown occurs with some lights.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not kidding, Tom. When I first tested my M6 on SF123's with the HOLA (2.5 amp draw for each stack of 3 123's) they got so hot by the end of the run that the shrink wrap was soft and almost gooey. Plus, the speed with which the light died makes me think that they went into thermal shut down. Temperature was on the order of 160F.

Anyway, thanks so much for this. Good work.


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## Brock

How many tests did you run on each cell? I know when I do runtime tests they can vary by about 5% on the same brand of cells. That is why I run all my lights at least three times to get an average.


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## SilverFox

Hello Brock,

With the exception of the Energizer cells, I ran 2 cells of each brand for each test. I am finding rather consistent results between cells, but have not explored variations between batches. You will notice that I included a date in the post so I can come back and see if there are any differences in performance as time goes by.

If cost was no object, it would be ideal to run 5 tests from several different batches of each brand, however this is not possible at this time. If someone wants to donate a dozen cells of a specific brand, I would be happy to test them for consistency from cell to cell.

I need to do another run on the Energizer's. I have heard rumors of inconsistent results with Energizers, but it is hard for me to believe they would be so far behind the other brands. On the other hand, I may have gotten some bad cells. I have more on order and plan to update the data when I finish testing them. 

I have also had several requests for a run at 0.5 amps and may gear up to do that as well.

Tom


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## Brock

Cool, at least with two you can tell if one is way out of wack.

Thanks

And keep up the great work!


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## cue003

impressive. interesting to see the battery station version hold up so close with the Duracell Ultras and streamlight.

Where can you buy the streamlight batteries and what is the cost?

Curtis


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## John N

There might be a cheaper place, but Brightguy has 12 packs for $18.95.

-john


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## kitelights

Police supply stores often carry them.


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## cue003

[ QUOTE ]
*John N said:*

There might be a cheaper place, but Brightguy has 12 packs for $18.95.

-john 

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow at that price it just makes the batterystation brand seem that much more of a value. Especially when you start to take a close look at the charts.

Curtis


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## voodoogreg

Thanks tom, that was very enlightening! In my short time as a 123 celled light owner, I have wondered about the "inexpensive" 123's surefire, and batt stn. I now feel pretty safe ordering up about 20-40 batt stn cells from them after this. I had ALL my SF's do the dead dance, and will not be buying them again. The duracell ultra's have been great but we all know how much more $$ they are, but they have shown really well in my E2d and E1e, stay bright longer, then a slow nice drift to less and less brightness, no shutting down like a light switch ala, SF and
the ones i got at the local cop store. (command's, says "made by kroll" same Company as the tail switch?)

And I don't see any need in testing any more energizer's. Two I used were noticeably less bright in the SF light's right from the start, and ran down quick. I won't tolate that in a batt the same price as a duracell. so till i find a good R123 rechargeables that will work in my incan SF's and ARC, I will go ahead and get some battery station's and when in a bind, pickup duracells.
I kid you not both energizer's bought in two different state's were equally crappy, and I think there AA alki's are not as long running as duracell either.
This thread helped me a lot. VDG

(at the moment,I am leaving my E1e on to finish up the eni in it. I don't even want that bunny batt to reside in one of my light's!)


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## John N

Well, it looks like the Battery Station batteries are $1.25 each. 

This is the same price as Surefire is selling theirs from their web site (in 12 pack).

The Streamlights work out to be $1.58, or $.33 more.

By comparison, Batteryspecialists.com sells the 8 pack lithium AA (L91) cells for $2.19 each.

I'd say all of these 123A cells are a pretty good deal. 

-john


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## Billson

Battery station 123's are $1 each for CPF members.


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## junior

How does one buy batt's from battstation using CPF discount?

What say you?


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## Reptilezs

http://www.batterystation.com/cpf.htm


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## junior

Thank's


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## SilverFox

It was pointed out that my "Minutes" scale on the 1.0 Amp Rate graph was off a bit. I have taken care of that. Thanks Henry.

I am in the middle of the 0.5 Amp Rate testing and will add those results when I finish.

Tom


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## billw

> Though at 1.5A loads I tested at, through ten tests,
> showed the Energizer [E^2] slightly on top...

Huh? Where? the graphs you posted showed energizers consistantly on the bottom, with 'everyone else' rather closely clustered. Or were those the regular energizers rather than E^2 versions? Unless something was mislabled...

BillW


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## batterystation

Sorry to be late posting. We just moved and things have been hectic. It would appear that the cobolt issue did in fact help with the voltage under heavy loads with our battery. I owe some of that push to Mr.Bulk as it was the VIP that really forced the issue with such heavy current requirements. We continue to strive to improve our battery and not just slap a label on a battery though it started out that way. A lot has changed. Thanks again.


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## dano

Nice...Much more scientific than the stuff I've done. I'd like to see that test run with Ray-O-Vac silver label 123's (Which I can provide a paior for sacrifice, if you want).

The Batterystation results were somewhat surprising, beating out big name brands; I use them and they work fine.

Duracell and Streamlight cells are my favorite. Streamlight's seem a little bit "hotter" in terms of punch and runtime then the otehr cells I've used (except the Ray-o-Vacs).

--dan


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## SilverFox

Hello Dano,

PM sent.

Tom


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## this_is_nascar

Nice job SilverFox. This is certainly great data and very useful.


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## dano

Yup..I sent 'em a few days ago. Too bad they're (Ray-o-Vacs) still at "retail" pricing levels, and not the bargain of other brands. 

I just wanna see the graph!

--dan


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## SilverFox

Hello Dano,

I received your RayOVac 123's yesterday. I will test them as soon as I get my CBA back from the firmware upgrade and re-calibration.

Thanks,

Tom


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## dano

Cool...I'll look forward to the results...

--dan


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## SilverFox

Update:

I added the testing at 0.5 amps to the first post.

Thanks to JohnN and Dano for providing additional batteries for me to test.

Tom


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## SilverFox

Update:

I have updated the 1.0 Amp Rate graph. I bought a bunch of Energizer batteries and this batch is performing better. I upgraded the graph to reflect the current Energizer test data.

I also added:
Maxell Gold
GI
and RayOVac test results.

Tom


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## John N

Thanks very much Tom for this great data!

-john


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## SilverFox

I am just finishing up beta testing the new CBA software that allows testing below 0.5 amps. There are a couple of minor issues, but I think it will be ready for "prime time" shortly.

Now that I can test at lower rates, is there any interest? 

I have a personal interest in checking the published rating of the various cells. It is interesting how different manufacturers test at different rates to get a published capacity. I am aware of some that are rated at 0.010 amps. I am wondering what device that uses 123's has such a low current draw... At least Duracell and Energizer publish higher current curves along with their official capacity rating.

I am trying to figure out what the current draws of the various lights we use are. Do we have any 123 lights that draw under 0.5 amps?

Tom


----------



## Reptilezs

maybe a red led inova x5t but im not to sure


----------



## HarryN

A number of the LED lights on the market are running at 350ma since they are mostly Lux I brightness (even if they use a Lux III). Also, there is increasing use of multi brightness settings in LED lights.

Perhaps for simplicity, (and if you are really bored) a check in the 100 ish and 200 - 250 ish range would be nice.

BTW - I am still working to get those other cells to you for testing.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Harry,

I was thinking a run at 0.25 amps might be close enough for the lower settings and those lights that draw less. That would give us a good range of data to interpret from.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have added the Titanium and Marathon test results to the 0.5 and 1.0 Amp Rate graphs in the first post.

Tom


----------



## greenLED

hmmm... looks like the GI, Titanium, and Marathon are in a group of their own. Interesting. Thank you SilverFox for posting such useful info. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

The data for the Golston tests had been added to the first post.

Interesting... The Golston cells tested better at 1.0 amps then they did at 0.5 amps. Also note that they heated up during both tests to over 80 degrees F. The 1.0 amp graph looks like there is some additional internal resistance in the cells. The 0.5 amp graph could suggest some consistency issues.

Thanks Chevrofreak for sending those cells to me for testing.

Tom


----------



## chevrofreak

Haha, wow, those Golstons suck ***. Wont be ordering more of those...


----------



## greenLED

How many Golstons did you test? Could it be a batch issue? It's weird that they do horribly at 0.5A but are similar to the Titanium and the Marathons at greater A. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif


----------



## SilverFox

Hello GreenLED,

I should have pointed out that I only tested 1 cell at each AmpRate. That's all I had to test.

With the "less than stellar" performance, I am not sure I want to invest in more to test...

Although it does have me wondering what is going on.

Tom


----------



## greenLED

I understand the cost involved. Hopefully more people can provide you with more cells so you can increase your sample size. Testing with just one cell may lead to erroneous results due to chance alone.

Golstons still seem bottom of the back, but the inconsistency between 0.5 and 1 A is puzzling. Unless there's an electronics explanation (I'm ignorant in that respect)...

In any case, it's awesome that you're doing this for us. It seems like a lot of work and is an important contribution. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Ed: Do you need specific brands, or are people just sending you whatever they have? Maybe if we knew how many cells you've tested of each brand people can send you more (or less) of each kind to increase sample size.


----------



## KevinL

Hmm......those test results are a real eye opener. Thanks for doing these tests! 

It seems that Batterystation really knows their batteries.


----------



## wintermute

I'd love to see a rechargable 123 shootout as well, the JSBurly R123s vs. the BatteryStation R123s really interests me. Although I was looking at rechargable 123s previously, but it looks like the low-cost and greater energy capacities of the BatteryStation CR123A seem like the best fit for high current uses.


----------



## wintermute

I'd love to see a rechargable 123 shootout as well, the JSBurly R123s vs. the BatteryStation R123s really interests me. Although I was looking at rechargable 123s previously, but it looks like the low-cost and greater energy capacities of the BatteryStation CR123A seem like the best fit for high current uses.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello GreenLED,

I have multiple tests of everything listed except the Ray O Vac and the Golston. Dano seems to be the only one that can find the Ray O Vac's and he is paying a premium price for them. The test results seemed to be in line with the others tested, so we did not go for improved statistics.

The Golston cells are acting like they are old stock and the chemistry needs a little "kick start" to get going. If they had not been sealed in plastic, I would have accused Chevrofreak of sending me "used" cells... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have not experienced such varied performance (or lack of it) with any other brand, and would suggest steering clear of the Golston cells in principle. You never know if the cell you grab is going to work or not. 

All of the other cells may vary in capacity, but cell to cell performance is reasonably consistent. 

Wonka,

I am working on a Rechargeable 123 Shoot Out, but will be testing chargers and AA NiMh cells first. The best cells in the world are only as good as the charger used to charge them. Once we have an idea of which chargers are good, we can go from there to check the cells out.

Tom


----------



## greenLED

Excellent, SilverFox! I am no longer skeptical.


----------



## HarryN

Hi Silverfox - I have a line on some Varta's, which will likely behave similar to the Ray o vac - given the heritage.

I am still trying to find some comparable SAFT or eq, but so far I have only been able to find the low current ones. I also saw some A size (vs 123 = 2/3 A) but they also were low current. My interest, is that they were rated at over 3000mah, which would be amazing for only 50 % more length.


----------



## Codeman

Thanks a bunch, Silverfox! You just answer my questions!


----------



## wintermute

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
I am working on a Rechargeable 123 Shoot Out, but will be testing chargers and AA NiMh cells first. The best cells in the world are only as good as the charger used to charge them. Once we have an idea of which chargers are good, we can go from there to check the cells out.

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome, I look forward to your NiMH AA shootout as well as your r123 shootout!


----------



## 83Venture

Any info on the BugOutGear 123 batteries?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello 83Venture,

Those are rechargeable cells. I haven't done any capacity comparison testing on those types of cells yet. It is on the slate for the future.

Tom


----------



## DaGeek

Great review. Good work silverfox.


----------



## KDOG3

So I take it that 2 and 3 cell Surefire lights are of the High current draw type?


----------



## SilverFox

Wayne at AmondoTech was disappointed in the testing results of the Titanium 123's. He decided to meet with the manufacturer of the cells to see if something could be done to improve the performance.

He was successful...

These new cells did OK at 0.5 amps, better than OK at 1.0 amps, and now lead the pack at 2.0 amps. I should also mention that there were no heating problems at 2.0 amps as well. I believe they got up to 85 F during the test.

It is refreshing to find a supplier that not only is interested in improving the products he has, but is also successful in making it happen.

Thanks Wayne.

Tom


----------



## Ginseng

Dang,

I had spoken with Wayne some time ago about these new 123s and it sounds like they turned out as he hoped. Very impresive.

Wilkey


----------



## AtomSphere

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Wayne at AmondoTech was disappointed in the testing results of the Titanium 123's. He decided to meet with the manufacturer of the cells to see if something could be done to improve the performance.

He was successful...

These new cells did OK at 0.5 amps, better than OK at 1.0 amps, and now lead the pack at 2.0 amps. I should also mention that there were no heating problems at 2.0 amps as well. I believe they got up to 85 F during the test.

It is refreshing to find a supplier that not only is interested in improving the products he has, but is also successful in making it happen.

Thanks Wayne.

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

You refering to energisers right? So would they have a different covering for their improved 123 cells? If not we wouldn't know which one is the newer version from the older ones


----------



## SilverFox

Hello AtomSphere,

No.

AmondoTech carries the Titanium brand cells.

The cells that I tested had the same labeling as the old cells.

Tom


----------



## AtomSphere

thanks for the info!


----------



## AtomSphere

I am wondering about the performance of golsten 123 cells. The charts are not displaying on the 1st page of this thread.

The price on www.code09.com is very attractive on these cells. But i am worried about performance and protection on golsten cells


----------



## Billson

Tom,

Do you have plans to test the Panasonic cells? I thought they were pretty highly regarded in terms of performance.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Billson,

I would be happy to test some Panasonic cells, but don't have any.

Where are they available from?

Tom


----------



## AtomSphere

wow... would be intresting to see panasonic in the charts!


----------



## Billson

Hi Tom,

I came across these and thought of looking them up on your charts when I discovered they were not yet tested. They're pretty cheap for branded cells so I was wondering how good they really are.

Update: They have suddenly disappeared from the site so the url is empty. Probably sold out or something.

Thanks.


----------



## NightLite

Hi Guys, do you know how to get in touch with JSB Jon? I sent him 5 emails for the past week trying to place an order for batteries but never get a reply....! Is there anything wrong with his email?


----------



## cognitivefun

*pipesmoker*, I have ordered on his site and gotten rapid delivery every time so far. And when I had a problem, Jon immediately fixed the problem and went far beyond what most folks do (sending replacement item without requiring the defective to be returned, etc.)

I have found he sometimes is a little slow about answering email but he is very fast filling orders placed on his shopping site.


----------



## AtomSphere

yup... it can take a week for him to reply


----------



## greenLED

I just noticed the "New Titanium" data. Kudos for AmondoTech!


----------



## JML

EDITED - Post removed.


----------



## money

this is phenomenal info.. i am truly amazed by the caliber of people on cpf...


----------



## AmondoTech

Have you see CR123A in double or triple? 

http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=946

http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=947

No more mixing new and old batteries.
Maybe someone can run some tests on them.

Regards,
Wayne


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Wayne,

That is an excellent idea. Keeping cells in a group will eliminate some safety concerns.

Thanks for offering this feature.

Tom


----------



## Size15's

Tom, 
SureFire have been offering this "feature" for many years, well over a decade if I recall correctly. SureFire's SF223AC, SF323AC & SF423AC battery sticks are designed and intended to be protected against heavy recoil for use in WeaponLights.

Wayne,
Do not all USA-manufactured 123A batteries have PTC protection?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Al,

Very interesting... When I go to the SureFire web site and put those battery numbers in, I get a reference to weapon lights, but no information on what the sets of batteries cost. Any idea what they charge?

Tom


----------



## Size15's

Hi Tom

Using SureFire's website as a source of information?!
Tsk! Tsk!
You should know better! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

I suggest that you contact a CPF Supporting SureFire Dealer, or call SureFire themselves.

Best regards,

Al


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Al,

Silly me. Can I suggest I had a senior moment? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tom


----------



## Size15's

No worries Tom! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


----------



## gyani

so which brand is the best


----------



## AtomSphere

[ QUOTE ]
*gyani said:*
so which brand is the best 

[/ QUOTE ]

See the graph on the 1st page....


----------



## yaesumofo

At 1.5 amps those surefiires get hot i cut off at 150degrees.

anyway I did this test cooling with a fan durring one test and not cooling on the other. more current on the hot one is produced.
I was wondering on those charts that ou generate on with the cba do you add the wat hours numbers or is there a way for me to get the software to put that there for me?
esumofo


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Yaesumofo,

Higher temperatures give more power, but when things get too hot you can have other problems.

The current CBA software does not give Watt Hours... I am still working on them to add that feature. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tom


----------



## AtomSphere

i assume the black coulour is with fan cooling?


----------



## geepondy

Just read this thread in detail and that is exactly what happened to my sister using the Surefire batteries I supplied her with an E2. Not once, not twice, but three times from a single box of 12. Light worked fine, next time she used it completely dead without the faintest of amber glow. Wish I had saved the batteries for analysis, particularly to find out if it happened to both cells in the light or just one of the two.

Now I use and give to family members the Sanyos which I get for a dollar each. Thus far they have seemed pretty reliable.

[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*

You also may have shed some light on the SureFire sudden death mystery. If those cells continued to rise in temperature even after testing on them ceased, the cells could conceivably trip the thermal shutdown protection system AFTER the flashlight has been turned off, which explains why we've had various reports of people using a flashlight just fine, turning it off and setting it on the mantle, only to find the following morning that the light wouldn't even turn on.

[/ QUOTE ]


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Tom, were you able to modify your testing equipment for low amp tests? You talked about going with 250mA.

Bill


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

Yes. The upgraded CBA (software and hardware) allows for low current testing.

My limited test runs at low currents tend to be more in line with the manufacturers claims, so I have not gone any further with this.

Did you have a particular brand in mind, or were you looking for a whole series?

Tom


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Tom said, "Did you have a particular brand in mind, or were you looking for a whole series?"

I have a lux III light that pulls 130mA's from a Cr123 cell in it's low mode, and I am going with Battery Station Cr123's, but wondered if Surefire Cr123's were any better for this application. I was thinking low cost for cells, like SF's and BS's. The light is current regulated in it's three levels of light output.

Bill


----------



## wtraymond

I just bought a batch of Battery Stations 123s about a month ago and I've been providing them to people at work for $1 each for their Inova XO, XO3, and Pelican M6 lights. After burning out the original Duracell Ultras that came in each package, they each bought Battery Station 123s from me and now I've had several complaints about the new batteries lasting only 1/3 to 1/2 as long?!?

After checking this thread, your tests indicate that I should get approximately the same performance from the Battery Station's 123s as the Duracells. But, after four sets of two BS123s, there seems to be no comparison.

Did I get a bad batch? I bought a Pelican case with 32 batteries and checked the voltage on the remainder. They all show about 3.2v. Any ideas?


----------



## Bullzeyebill

I ordered some BS 123's and will monitor their runtime. The graphs do show good performance with these cells, sort of contrary to what HDS gets in runtime using BS cells. Their testing shows Duracell's getting best performance, at high amp drain and low amp drain, with BS cells not really competing, particularly at the 10 lumen and lower ratings. I will report my findings with these cells, which will mostly be used with a VIP adjusted to pull 130mA's on the low setting. I mostly use the low setting with that particular VIP. Output is about 14-15 lumens, as compared to other know lumen lights, using my LM631 lightmeter.

Bill


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

While I expect there to be some variation from batch to batch, I have not heard of any changes in chemical formulation.

Do you happen to know the current draw of the Inova and Pelican lights?

I have been using re-chargeable's for my most used lights and have not purchased any new batteries for some time. It may be time to get some new stock and do a comparison test.

Another thought... Perhaps the batteries are fine and your co-workers are using their lights more... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

Tom


----------



## Bullzeyebill

SilverFox. not me re Inova, and Pelican lights. My interest, as posted in earlier post, was best Cr123's for low amp drain, like 130ma's. I will be trying BS cells, when they arrive. I do notice that BS cells perform better when driven really hard, like 2amps. Work better hot? I do have to trade off cost vs performance, so BS cells represent good value. Surefire would be second choice, if these BS cells do not work out, only $.25 cents difference, and a little more shipping, $6.99 vs SF's $8.00. I would like to see a graph showing voltage overtime at low amp drain with various cells, which would be about 0.1C. I would send some BS cells.

Bill

Bill


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have added the results from a new batch of Golston cells - Thanks Dae for sending them to me.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

I was looking through my test data and realized that I have a bunch of runs taken at 0.28 amps. I believe I was going for 0.2C and was thinking the 123 cells were rated at 1400 mAh.

At any rate, here is that data. Hope it helps you out. It looks like the StreamLight cells hold voltage higher, but the SureFire cells last a bit longer. 







Tom


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Thanks Tom, it does help. Looks like Streamlight and Surefire are mostly tied for best delivery at this fairly low amperage. I am using Battery Station cells, I bought 20, and they will last for awhile. I mostly usre my VIP at the modded 130mA low mode. It puts out about 10-12 lumens. The Battery Station cells, as you have tested, are plenty good at highter amp drain. Maybe some 123 cells, or even AA NiMh cells, perform better at higher amp drain, like CBP AA 1650's, when they get hot. I wonder if there would be a difference with different 123's at about 130mA's? Just curious.

Bill


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

I have very limited test data below 0.28 amps. The few tests I have run show very little change from that data.

This would lead me to believe that the general trend (as well as the values) would be quite similar...

Tom


----------



## jtivat

Is there anyway to tell if the AmondoTech 123's I just received are the new or old? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks
JT


----------



## SilverFox

Hello JT,

The new ones look just like the old ones... Where did you get them from?

Tom


----------



## jtivat

I got them from AmondoTech but I meant the New Titanium. The reason I ask is b/c I received some of the 123's that are wrapped together and they state "PTC protection" and the cells that came individually do not say that on them.


----------



## Ice

I just wanted to thank you for this comparison! I've been looking for tests like this (and some others here) all over the internet and in print magazines for a long time without finding anything worth mentioning. I wouldn't have dreamed of finding so much information brought together in such a compact form! Just great!

One more thing: There has been released a 123 sized NiMh akku lately. I would find it interesting to compare that unique rechargeable with the "normal" batteries.


----------



## bajaiman

Any chance that Panasonic brand can be added to the test  ... I'm sure someone has donated their Panasonic CR123s batteries to be tested...


----------



## Osprey_Guy

> I got them from AmondoTech but I meant the New Titanium. The reason I ask is b/c I received some of the 123's that are wrapped together and they state "PTC protection" and the cells that came individually do not say that on them.


 
I took advantage of AmondoTech's CPF special and bought twenty of their Titanium brand R123's. I called Wayne to confirm that I did indeed get the new, improved (protected) Titanium 123's and he informed me that if they say "PTC Protection" on the battery, then those are the new cells. He said that he has few if any of the old cells left in stock.

BTW-Wayne doesn't know me from Adam and yet he impressed me as someone who was clearly interested in my opinion. Nice guy who's obviously commited to building a class operation and becoming a serious player...:goodjob:


----------



## nighthawk

no panasonic cr123 cells ?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Nighthawk,

I will have to check. I thought I have done some Panasonic cells, but let me see if I can find the data.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

People have been asking me about testing some CR2 cells. I have no lights that use this size, so I have held off from testing them.

It just so happened that Wayne at AmondoTech and I were talking about the evolution of flashlights and we were commenting on the new CR2 lights that people are building. I told Wayne that I did not know how well the CR2 cells performed and was thinking about doing some testing on them.

Wayne said he would throw some in with my order.

Thanks Wayne.

As a result, I have put a graph of the results at the end of the first post.

Tom


----------



## HarryN

Nice work Tom - Thanks. CR2s have a surprising amount of energy in them.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Nighthawk,

I checked my test data and I have tested some Panasonic cells. Unfortunately the data is corrupt. It looks like I had a bad connection during parts of the tests.

I will have to find some additional cells to test before I can present the results.

Tom


----------



## mtbkndad

jtivat said:


> I got them from AmondoTech but I meant the New Titanium. The reason I ask is b/c I received some of the 123's that are wrapped together and they state "PTC protection" and the cells that came individually do not say that on them.



jtivat,

I believe your single cells are the old ones. I have both. All of the new Titanium CR123A batteries look exactly the same with the only difference being the shrink wrap on the 2 and 3 cell sets. The two other differences between the old and new Titanium's are the color and the lettering for CR123A LITHIUM. The old batteries were a darker orange and the lettering is italic. If you do have the olds ones, call Wayne and tell him you got some old ones. You will probably have to wait till Monday.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## nighthawk

thanks SilverFox...


----------



## LightObsession

It looks like those Golston's aren't very good with currents above .28 amps, but I'll probably order some with my VB-16 light anyway because that's the only brand the seller has and I can get them for $.90 each with little or no added shipping and I don't have any here at home. I'll order some better ones later when I order something else from a different seller.

Thanks for the charts, they are very helpful in determining which batteries to buy. I have some other low current multi 5mm LED lights and 1w Lux lights that can make better use of the Golstons, but the Golstons should get me started with the VB-16.


----------



## Billson

If you're going to spend $0.90 for Golstons, wouldn't you be better off spending $1 for Battery Station or Titanium cells that can take more than 0.28 amps of current draw.


----------



## LightObsession

Billson said:


> If you're going to spend $0.90 for Golstons, wouldn't you be better off spending $1 for Battery Station or Titanium cells that can take more than 0.28 amps of current draw.



I probably would be better off, and I'll likely get some eventually, but I'd also probably have to add $5 or $6 shipping with the Battery Station or Titanium CR123. I could get 10 Golsten's for $9 with the flashlights for probably no added shipping, so it's probably a tolerable way to get started until I have something else to order from Battery Station or a Titanium dealer to share the shipping fee. If I don't like the Golstens, I won't order them again. I'd definately prefer a better performing brand and will eventually have some.

Thanks for your suggestion.


----------



## Billson

Your welcome.

From personal experience though, I've always ended up spending even more when I try to save on cheap and unreliable stuff because I will get so frustrated I will either throw them away or refuse to use them altogether so I will eventually buy the good stuff anyway thus doubling my cost.

IMHO, you will end up spending less in the long run.

Wow, that was a long sentence.


----------



## dano

Here's an amateur graph of four different cells I ran though my CBA...Not Silverfox quality, but may be useful to some.










--dan


----------



## dano

Here's another one:


----------



## John N

Thanks Dano. 

BTW, anyone ever compare the Streamlight 'yellow jacket" batteries to the newer, "silver jacket" batteries? I'm wondering if it was just a cosmetic change, or if they changed chemistries as well. I don't think I've seen any graphs of the newer, silver jacket versions yet.

Oh, is Nightops selling batteries now? I haven't seen a source for them. Are they available yet, and if so, where? 

They look suspiciously like the Streamlight batteries in terms of performance which is my battery of choice, so if I could get the same performance battery a bit cheaper....

Thanks,

-john


----------



## chevrofreak

dano said:


> Here's an amateur graph of four different cells I ran though my CBA...Not Silverfox quality, but may be useful to some.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --dan


 

Those streamlight yellow and Night Ops cells look pretty impressive.

BTW, your graphs both say li-ion.


----------



## dano

The silver SL and Yellow SL cells are the same.

The "Li-Ion" is a default from the CBA software that isn't user changable.

-dan


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Dano,

Great looking graphs. 

Tom


----------



## jsr

I have Streamlight, Ray-O-Vac, Battery Station, and Titanium CR123s (and some Duracells). So far, the Streamlight and Ray-O-Vacs have been great. I haven't tried the BS or Titanium ones yet. I'll likely use the Titaniums next since they have a faster self-discharge rate of 2% vs. 0.5% for the other brands. From the graphs, Streamlight, Ray-O-Vac, and Sanyo were at or near the top in all tests...and those happen to be my batteries of choice...great info, thanks Silverfox!
Anyone know what the self-discharge rate of the BS 123s are? I keep some batteries for emergency kits and the Titaniums will likely not be going in those with a 4x faster self-discharge. If the BS 123s have a lower self-discharge rate, I'll get those over the Titaniums since they're similar in performance but will last longer in storage.
I can get Sanyos for $1.67 each. Anyone know a cheaper place?


----------



## RAF_Groundcrew

I recently got a Surefire M4, and once the supplied SF lithiums had run down, I put in my usual white Panasonics, and the light just wouldn't run well with them, it seems the Panasonics just can't handle the drain.

I have some Battery Statioins 123s, and some Surefire 123s, I'm not sure which batteries have the edge, but Lighthound's pricing for the Surefires has increased since Igot my last order, they are now around twice the price of the Battery Station cells.

In my other SF lights, it's not so critical what cells I use, but they do get warm in a 3 cell light with 200 lumen lamp (Z3 or M3).


----------



## SilverFox

Hello JSR,

I am confused... Where did you get the idea that some brands of lithium primary cells have higher self discharge rates than others?

Tom


----------



## Mr_Light

I did notice that AXshop now has a free shipping promo on orders over $25 until 01/31/2006 by using code promo-free-ship at checkout. Just ordered a bunch of CR123A 3.0V Lithium Batteries at $1.50 a pair ($.75 each) shipped!
http://www.axshop.com/details.aspx/sku-1066/

Hope they aren't junk.


----------



## VWTim

I just ran across some Everlast brand 123's at the local Grocery outlet. The batteries are made by continental7 and have the similar green lower shrink and hex cut top cover like the SF's. They're single card packed and marketed towards camera. For $.99 each and local to boot. Any interetst in testing one or a couple? I'll ship them to you if so.


----------



## lasercrazy

I can give you some ilumicell batteries if you wanna test them. PM me if you're interested.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

hello silverfox

how long has it been since you did you discharge tests on your surfire and batterystation cr123a as there has been a lot of reports of faulty cells.

just my luck i ordered 20x batterystation cr123a before i read about the problems on cpf.

I think a lot of people have had their cofindence shaked in linthium cells.

I have heard of problems with AA cells from batterystation on cpf.

what i am saying is that we need a hero to step up to the breach and put our minds at ease.

somone who has had a lot of experience in testing cells.

do you know of anybody that might fit that description. :devil:

regards.


----------



## InfidelCastro

I heard somebody mention in another thread that Titaniums have a higher discharge rate as well. They never mention where they heard that though. I wonder where they got that idea from?

Anyways, here's a couple of brands I would like to see tested that I don't seem to hear anything about:

*DigiLight 123's:*

http://www.digilightusa.com/Catalog/product-detail.asp?pid=28

And these I just found out about today:

*PentagonLight 123's:*

http://www.pentagonlight.com/accessories.cfm__id.10


----------



## SilverFox

Hello InfidelCastro,

I am not sure if there have been any long term tests done on CPF to determine the actual self discharge rate of lithium cells. I have some with dates on them and plan to check them in 10 years or so. Check back with me then...  

If you would like to donate some of those cells you indicated for testing, PM me and I will provide you with my shipping address.

Tom


----------



## InfidelCastro

SilverFox said:


> Hello InfidelCastro,
> 
> I am not sure if there have been any long term tests done on CPF to determine the actual self discharge rate of lithium cells. I have some with dates on them and plan to check them in 10 years or so. Check back with me then...
> 
> If you would like to donate some of those cells you indicated for testing, PM me and I will provide you with my shipping address.
> 
> Tom




Would love to if I had some. Unfortunately I only have a few Titaniums that I can barely afford to feed my 123 lights with. So I'm really looking for the best value. I read in another thread that somebody had a bad experience with the pentagonlight batteries and had to send them back for different ones.


----------



## proFeign

So is the consensus that E2 Energizer 123s are not good? Or not consistent? Lighthound has the e2's for less than SureFires! I don't know why. I have a bunch of e2s and some SureFires left from an old box so I'm flush for a while, but I was wondering if Duracell (were price no object) was better. I've purchased a number of nice lights in my day and they all always ship with Duracell Ultra batteries (HDS, ARC, Inova), and I was wondering if they were better than the e2s and I'm more confused now after reading this thread than i was before... :scratches head after reading runtime plots:


----------



## InfidelCastro

Maybe I missed something? It looked like the Energizer's were one of the best? I thought the E2's were the AA batteries?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello proFeign,

The Energizer e2 CR123 cells seem to perform very consistently, but they are not the best for high current draw lights.

I would not consider them for the SureFire M6, for example.

Other lights should run just fine with them, and the only problem will be that they will run a few minutes less that some of the other cells.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello InfidelCastro,

The Energizer CR123 cells are also called e2.

Tom


----------



## proFeign

SilverFox said:


> Hello InfidelCastro,
> 
> The Energizer CR123 cells are also called e2.
> 
> Tom



Thanks, Tom!

"e2" is Energizer's premium designation for alkaline and lithium batteries of the "cylindrical" type (or anything other than a button cell, I guess). For instance their CR2023 button cells would not be called e2 but their premium alkaline AAA/AA and lithium AA/AAA/123/etc. cells that are cylinders would be e2. The e2 alkalines are confusingly named and I don't know how much better they are than the stock AA/AAA batteries. If you don't really use a light all that much lithiums rule because they weigh less than half as much as their alkaline equivalents, which is mighty noticeable on a keychain.


----------



## junior

So, i got a SF G2 and 6P with a P60. Would i be good with just buying batterystations 123's ?

How about if i upgraded to a P61?

Thanks


----------



## nuggett

I am one who was disappointed with Pentagonlight batts. They exchanged them for a new batch and these are working great so far in my M6. I ran the light for about 5 minutes and check them on a ZTS tester. They all still measured 100%! So far so good.


----------



## InfidelCastro

Really? Hmm, that's good. Maybe they had a bad batch or something..

I'd really like to see a runtime test of these, since they're a bit less than Surefires.


----------



## seery

Above it stated the Energizers may not fair well in high drain apps like the M6/HOLA.

Anybody have thoughts/experience on the BatteryStations for high drain lights
such as the M3/M4/M6?

Thanks.


----------



## chevrofreak

Silverfox, have you tested any of the Sanyo 123's made in China? I bought 20 from Botach Tactical but am not seeing the performance I was expecting from some of my regulated lights.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Chevrofreak,

I have tested some, and am checking the results. My first impression was that they did not perform as well as the others, but in some cases they seemed to do better.

I will try to get a graph up shortly.

Tom


----------



## Flash_Gordon

Hi Tom-

I bought a batch of these Sanyos from Botac when they were $.99. Seemed like an excellent deal as the Sanyos have been my battery of choice.

I was quite surprised to see the made in China markings. I posted that news immediately, but a number of CPF members had already bought a bunch of these at that great price.

Made in China is not necessarily bad news, but it depends on Sanyos control of production and QC.

It would be great to see a graph of the new Chinese made cells overlaid on your original Sanyo results.

If you need more of these cells for test , PM me and I can send you some.

Mark


----------



## chevrofreak




----------



## gravelpit

Just ordered 20 Battery Station CR123As from their CPF discount page, after all the rave reviews I've found here. Gonna be quite a task waiting for them to come in... :rock:


----------



## europium

I first want to extend thanks to all the testers and kudos especially to Silverfox.

I am wondering if there have been any recent tests of the 123s that Surefire are shipping. SF cannot have been unaware of its batteries previously reaching such high temperatures that they would shut down in high-drain applications. Although mention has been made that the BS batteries have been improved, I wonder if SF hasn't also made improvements to their cells, given the obvious self-interest in insuring consistent performance of their own lights which have current requirements from small to great to everything in between.

When was the last time anyone tested SF 123s at high currents?


----------



## soffiler

europium said:


> I first want to extend thanks to all the testers and kudos especially to Silverfox.
> 
> I am wondering if there have been any recent tests of the 123s that Surefire are shipping. SF cannot have been unaware of its batteries previously reaching such high temperatures that they would shut down in high-drain applications. Although mention has been made that the BS batteries have been improved, I wonder if SF hasn't also made improvements to their cells, given the obvious self-interest in insuring consistent performance of their own lights which have current requirements from small to great to everything in between.
> 
> When was the last time anyone tested SF 123s at high currents?


 
It's not especially high current, but I just finished testing six SF cells to death on a WMR CBA-II at 900mA. They performed admirably. In fact they are indistinguishable performance-wise from either Energizer or Duracell (also at 900mA). Incidentally I bought them online straight from SF, and paid $21 (before shipping) for a dozen.

Steve Offiler
VP of Engineering
Central Tools, Inc.


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

VWTim picked up some Everlast Go Power cells and I finally have posted the test results. Thanks for your help Tim.

I have noticed that my combined graphs are getting a bit cluttered. I will add additional testing as individual graphs and you will have to compare Ah, Wh, and M figures.

If I get inspired, I may put the 1.0 amp data into a table...

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

Flash Gordon and someone else (I can't remember who) sent me some Sanyo CR123 cells that were made in China. I have posted a comparison of the made in Japan cells with the made in China cells in the first post.

Tom


----------



## soffiler

SilverFox said:


> Update:
> 
> Flash Gordon and someone else (I can't remember who) sent me some Sanyo CR123 cells that were made in China. I have posted a comparison of the made in Japan cells with the made in China cells in the first post.
> 
> Tom


 
Hi Tom:

Thanks! I find your results are reasonably comparable with my own testing done at 900mA (this odd drain rate chosen because it is pertinent to my own application). Looking at the watt-hours, which IMHO is the best measure of "capacity", I see the Chinese cells are down 18% at .5A, down 14% at 1.0A, and down 11% at 2A. In my testing, I found the Chinese cells down by 15% versus USA-made Surefires. What I also found very interesting was the shape of the curves. They are almost indistinguishable until you look at the X-axis. All in all, I'm rather impressed with Sanyo's effort in China.

Steve Offiler
VP of Engineering
Central Tools, Inc.


----------



## Flash_Gordon

Hi Tom-

Thanks for the Sanyo China test. I know that your first limited impression was that these cells were down somewhat in performance from the Japan cells and that turned out to be validated in this test.

However, when I compared them to all the brands tested at the three discharge rates, the still compare quite favorably.

When you look at the cells that are available at the $1 price point they represent very good value and performance.

Mark


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Mark,

I should also point out that all of the Sanyo cells made in China tested at 100% on the ZTS tester. Consistency at a low price is what we all are looking for.

Also, keep in mind that I believe the Sanyo cells are rated at 1400 mAh at a reduced current draw and the cells made in China exceeded that specification.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

Vew sent me some Tenergy CR123 cells for testing. I checked 10 cells on the ZTS tester and 8 of them were at 100%. 1 was at 80%, and the other was at 60%. The test results were done with 100% cells.

The results are in the first post.

Tom


----------



## csheehy

Forumites:

Can anyone tell me what the amp rating is for the following lights:

Surefire G2
Streamlight Twin Task (xenon/3LED)
Streamlight TRL-2 (LED & laser)

Just found a deal at a local store on Energizer Lithium 123s w/2015 exp date ($1.04 each) and was put off by the 2.0 amp chart posted above...

T-I-A from long-time lurker and first time poster.

Chris Sheehy


----------



## lasercrazy

I guess you never got to testing the ilumicells I sent you.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Lasercrazy,

Oops, thanks for the reminder. I will get to testing them this week.

Sorry for the delay.

Tom


----------



## Gearhead Jim

After using Duracell 123's in my Surefire 6P for several years I switched to the Surefire 123's. Performance and run time seemed identical, I need a new set about every 2 months. A couple of years ago I switched to a Surefire Nitrilon (the "plastic" version of the 6P). Since then I've had several instances of mysteriously dead batteries- the cells seemed to have about 1/2-1/3 of their life left (based on run time and brightness) but suddenly the light is completely dead; so I toss the old cells and install two new ones. Even though I seldom use the light for more than two minutes at one time, I blamed the problem on the internal thermal protection of the cells combined with the insulating properties of the Nitrilon plastic body: the cells get warmer during use than they did in the thermally-conductive aluminum 6P. But today I turned on the Nitrilon light for maybe 15 seconds, twice. It worked fine but when I tried it again it was completely dead. Installing new cells fixed the problem, some cell-swapping showed that installing one of the old cells would produce normal light, the other old cell gave nothing. So once again, I tossed the two old ones and kept the two new ones. 
The expense of replacing these "bad" cells isn't much, but there are times when I really need the light to work. Can anyone explain why I'm having this problem, and how to cure it?


----------



## TaeKwonDoDo

Thanks for the great research. 

Any idea where I can get good pricing on 123's? I have a Digilight DF1000xc (xenon). I went through amondotech and purchased 6 Titanium 123's. None of them worked in my flashlight (I know my light works because of the almost dead Titanium 123's that are in there now). They worked in my LED, but not my Xenon. Amondotech took them back and sent me 8 more (2 extra for my trouble). None of them worked either. So I am now looking for a new brand and a new vendor. Amondotech won't sell me any Sanyo's because they think I'm the problem (well, either me or my flashlight). Very frustrating. So now I've paid shipping three times. For nothing. Wheee. 
Thanks...


----------



## soffiler

TaeKwonDoDo said:


> Thanks for the great research.
> 
> Any idea where I can get good pricing on 123's? I have a Digilight DF1000xc (xenon). I went through amondotech and purchased 6 Titanium 123's. None of them worked in my flashlight (I know my light works because of the almost dead Titanium 123's that are in there now). They worked in my LED, but not my Xenon. Amondotech took them back and sent me 8 more (2 extra for my trouble). None of them worked either. So I am now looking for a new brand and a new vendor. Amondotech won't sell me any Sanyo's because they think I'm the problem (well, either me or my flashlight). Very frustrating. So now I've paid shipping three times. For nothing. Wheee.
> Thanks...


 
GE/Sanyo's from Botach Tactical:

http://www.botac.com/sanyo1.html

About $20 for a 20-pack, before shipping. My first shipment said "Made in China" but I must admit they proved to be nearly comparable to the Made in USA cells from other manufacturers. (I am referring to a full depletion test I performed at 1amp drain rate on West Mt. Radio equipment, NOT a ZTS-type test). More recently I got a batch with identical labels except they said "Made in Japan". These tested even better, totally on par with Made in USA cells. Same price. At this point I've developed a trust of GE/Sanyo CR123A's regardless of country of origin, but I cannot say that about other brands. I won't name any names but I've tested some other Chinese cells with private labels on them, and they simply don't measure up. GE/Sanyo is doing something right.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Jim,

Welcome to CPF.

I don't think the switching to the Nitrolon light has anything to do with the problem. Running the light 2 minutes at a time should not build enough heat to cause this.

This problem seems to surface from time to time. You may want to call SureFire and see what they have to say.

As far as a cure goes... did you have the same problem with Duracell batteries?

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello TaeKwonDoDo,

Welcome to CPF.

You can also find reasonable prices at www.cheapbatteries.com

Tom


----------



## Gearhead Jim

SilverFox said:


> Hello Jim,
> 
> Welcome to CPF.
> 
> I don't think the switching to the Nitrolon light has anything to do with the problem. Running the light 2 minutes at a time should not build enough heat to cause this.
> 
> This problem seems to surface from time to time. You may want to call SureFire and see what they have to say.
> 
> As far as a cure goes... did you have the same problem with Duracell batteries?
> 
> Tom


 
My original post was somewhat misleading, usually the light is on for only a minute or two but sometimes for longer. Unfortunately, I never time the light before it goes dead the next day!
I did not have this problem with the Duracells, but only used a couple of sets before changing to Surefire so don't have a good comparison.


----------



## soffiler

To expand on my previous post just a bit, I want to stress that all CR123A's are not created equal. I have been generally disappointed by most of what I've tested from China with the GE/Sanyo as the ONLY exception so far. Bear in mind too that I haven't tested EVERYTHING on the market.

The first problem with most Chinese cells (in my experience) is lower total energy storage. In practical terms, this means they can't deliver X current at the same voltage as the high quality cells; instead their voltage sags. Then, they reach full depletion sooner, too.

The second problem is explained in another thread on this forum, and that is mismatch from cell to cell. This can be a very signficant problem. NewBie has demonstrated, multiple times, a pairing of two brand-new cells in series (like in any 2x123A flashlight) where one is actually lower in capacity due to manufacturing variation. _The weaker cell has failed explosively._

I want everything in a CR123A: I want energy-storage that is comparable with the best in the business; I want variation among cells to be an absolute minimum; and I don't want to pay a whole lot. Tough customer, huh? Cost is third on my list... energy-storage capacity and minimum variation are paramount concerns.


----------



## pilou

A lot of great stuff here.

Before stumbling on this thread, noticed that Botac sells 20/pack Sanyos for $19.95, and they mark in red "made in Kapan". See link

They also have Energizer e2s for the same price: link. Exactly whcih Energizers were used in the test? It seems like there is a regular and e2 (newer?) version? Energizer's website lists a 123 and an EL123 (e2?) with slightly different dimensions. Can anyone shed some more light on this? 

Is Botac a reputable shop?


----------



## pilou

*The 2-amp test conditions probably never met in real life*

Btwy, it seems like all the "good batteries" perform fairly similarly with the 1-amp test. But there is more variation at 0.5 amp and even more at 2 amps. The big manufacturer names seem to do best for the 0.5 amp test. But batteryjunction and New Titanium seem to do a little better then them in the 2-amp test.

But how many lights actually operate in the 2-amp test mode? Think of it this way: how many single cell lights do you know that drain a 123 battery in about 20-25 minutes? I don't know of any. That would be awfully inefficient anyway. That's what multi-cells are for, to operate powerful lights more efficiently at higher voltages.

Unless I am way off in the above paragraph, it seems to me like most lights would drive 123 cells in the 0.25 to 1 amp range, with the big name batteries seeming to last longer in the lower current draw conditions.

PS: I just downloaded the spec sheet for the Energizer EL123. It sepecifies 1.5A Max for continuous discharge. It seems like some other batteries are rated at just 1.3 or 1.4 amps. This reinforces my belief that no designer would build a light that would draw 2 amps from these batteries. *So the 2-amp test seems irrelevant to me since it is driving the batteries outside their normal range of operation. *A 1.5-amp test would be the one to test these batteries at their limit, although I suspect no light would draw more than 1.2-13 amp if the designer thought about leaving some margin of safety.

Any thoughts?


----------



## TaeKwonDoDo

Hey all, 

I need to take back everything I said in my previous post. the problem was with my flashlight. The existing batteries together were a hair longer than the new ones. When I shimmed the bulb, all the titanium batteries from amondotech worked - as well as new ones I got from the store. It was a mystery though... Thanks to those that replied.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Pilou,

It is obvious that you don't use a SureFire M6...

While most lights run in the 0.5 - 1.5 amp range, there are some that operate in the 2.5 amp range. The 2.0 amp testing is for those people.

Tom


----------



## soffiler

pilou said:


> A lot of great stuff here.
> 
> Before stumbling on this thread, noticed that Botac sells 20/pack Sanyos for $19.95, and they mark in red "made in Kapan". See link
> 
> They also have Energizer e2s for the same price: link. Exactly whcih Energizers were used in the test? It seems like there is a regular and e2 (newer?) version? Energizer's website lists a 123 and an EL123 (e2?) with slightly different dimensions. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
> 
> Is Botac a reputable shop?


 

Sorry for the late reply, but I've been away on vacation. I've ordered from Botach (note spelling) several times and have zero complaints. They are the ONLY place I know (not that I know all that much) that sells reputable name-brand CR123A cells made in USA and/or Japan for a buck.


----------



## pilou

SilverFox said:


> While most lights run in the 0.5 - 1.5 amp range, there are some that operate in the 2.5 amp range. The 2.0 amp testing is for those people.


 
2.5 amps? oo: I stand corrected if that is the case. But I am having a hard time imagining a cell rated at 1.5 amp being driven continuously at 2.5 amps without damage.

Is that 2.5 amp draw for each battery or is that the total draw of the light? I just did a little bit of research and it seems like the M6 has two sets of three batteries in arranged parallel. So if it is the light that is drawing 2.5 amps, then each battery is operating at 1.25 amp.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Pilou,

The M6 is a 9 volt system that runs at 5.0 amps with the high output lamp assembly. It runs two parallel sets of three cells in series for a total of six cells total. Run time is about 18 - 20 minutes.

Tom


----------



## pilou

5 amps in the palm of your hand  . Six 123As drained in 20 minutes. That thing must get really hot very quickly. I guess users better make sure every battery they put in that beast is near 100% capacity and of good quality. This redefines "pushing the envelope" :laughing: Battery manufacturers must cringe when they hear about the Surefire M6 :lolsign:. Thanks for the info.


----------



## paulr

pilou said:


> 5 amps in the palm of your hand  . Six 123As drained in 20 minutes. That thing must get really hot very quickly. I guess users better make sure every battery they put in that beast is near 100% capacity and of good quality. This redefines "pushing the envelope" :laughing: Battery manufacturers must cringe when they hear about the Surefire M6 :lolsign:. Thanks for the info.


The Surefire "Beast" is a HID light that uses TWENTY cr123a's, not six, though they last longer than 20 minutes. I just wanted to make sure you knew that. I think the later versions may use fewer cells .

Pics are here: http://www.obaq.tv/cpf/?page=SureFire_Beast


----------



## pilou

paulr said:


> The Surefire "Beast" is a HID light that uses TWENTY cr123a's, not six, though they last longer than 20 minutes. I just wanted to make sure you knew that.



I certainly didn't! That's crazy. Its price is even crazier  $4,800!!! Do you know how the batteries are arranged in terms of parallel/series setup?

PS: I loved the superimposed output curves of the Beast, the M6, and the U2 :lolsign:


----------



## soffiler

pilou said:


> I certainly didn't! That's crazy. Its price is even crazier  $4,800!!! Do you know how the batteries are arranged in terms of parallel/series setup?


 
Hi pilou:

Based on the image of the battery arrangement here:

http://www.obaq.tv/cpf/images/Beast_Manual_2.jpg

And based on the fact that it's rated at "12V" according to the literature, I would put those details together and conclude the cells are grouped four parallel, five series. A CR123A under load has a voltage around 2.4-2.5V and noting that 5x2.4=12.0V so the math works.

The design, as I understand, was targetted directly at the military. It appears they had another of those "$600 hammers" or "$2000 toilet seats" with their $4800 flashlight!!


----------



## MoonRise

*Re: The 2-amp test conditions probably never met in real life*



pilou said:


> But how many lights actually operate in the 2-amp test mode? Think of it this way: how many single cell lights do you know that drain a 123 battery in about 20-25 minutes? I don't know of any. That would be awfully inefficient anyway. That's what multi-cells are for, to operate powerful lights more efficiently at higher voltages.



Take simple Mag 2-C, add a Carley 1499 bulb, power it with 3x123 cells, and the curent draw is 1.8 A. And 1.8 A is a lot closer to 2A than 1A.

More than one Surefire HOLA system will drain the cells in 20-25 minutes. It doesn't matter if it's a 2-cell, 3-cell, 4-cell, or more light, the incan HOLA will drain the cells in 20-25 minutes.


----------



## pilou

I have clearly been shown that there are some mods and some superHID lights that actually push these 123 cells well beyond their official ratings. But would it still be fair to say that for most lights, the current draw will be somewhere roughly between say 0.2 and1.3 amps?


----------



## soffiler

pilou said:


> I have clearly been shown that there are some mods and some superHID lights that actually push these 123 cells well beyond their official ratings. But would it still be fair to say that for most lights, the current draw will be somewhere roughly between say 0.2 and1.3 amps?


 
Since (I believe) a lot of people think in terms of runtime rather than current draw, let me just add that your numbers (0.2 - 1.3 amps) equate to roughly *one to seven hours* of runtime.

I don't have a whole lot of experience here, but my gut feeling is that the majority of CR123A-powered flashlights will fall closer to the low end of that runtime scale i.e. the higher-current-draw end of the scale.


----------



## pilou

soffiler said:


> I've ordered from Botach (note spelling) several times and have zero complaints.


 
I just did my usual minimal research before buying from a new retailer to find out Botach has a truly horrendous track record. A last 6-months rating of 0.75 out of 10 from retailersratings.com. A big fat *F* from the Southern Cal BBB, on a scale that goes like this: AAA, AA, A, BBB, BB, ... 

I guess the prices are just too good not too come with a big catch




It sounds like a nightmarish business


----------



## soffiler

pilou said:


> I just did my usual minimal research before buying from a new retailer to find out Botach has a truly horrendous track record. A last 6-months rating of 0.75 out of 10 from retailersratings.com. A big fat *F* from the Southern Cal BBB, on a scale that goes like this: AAA, AA, A, BBB, BB, ...
> 
> I guess the prices are just too good not too come with a big catch
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like a nightmarish business


 
That makes me go "hmmmmm..."

I've ordered from them a total of three times now, over a period of um probably 6 months, and I have zero cause for complaint. I have received exactly what I ordered in a timely fashion each of the three times. I am not familar with retailersratings.com, but you've got my attention with the BBB.

Now I gotta do some homework...

(EDIT)

OK, I located resellerratings.com (note "retailersratings.com" does not exist) and I see the horrendous track record of Botach Tactical. It sounds to me like a tiny operation, probably a one-man-show (or make that one-woman-show since many people seem to reach a female when the finally reach a human being). Most likely overworked and underpaid, and maybe (hey I don't know the person) not of stellar IQ to begin with. None of this is meant to be an excuse; it's just the image I get after reading some of the reviews. Good luck asking for a "supervisor" when you can't get anywhere with your complaint... that person on the other end of the phone is probably the Cheif Cook and Bottle Washer.


----------



## pilou

I did some more reading and it seems like there are some repeat customers with no problems while other have lots of issues. I suppose "bad" seldom means every transaction goes bad. Perhaps only 5% or less of them go bad, but that is usually enough to build up a terrible track record. I suspect one of the reasons they run into trouble is that they just sell way too many things for what seems like a fairly small business. They probably don't have in stock many of things they list but the temptation is probably too big to let the customer waiting or ship him something else.


----------



## Martini

Botach's bad rep is well-known in the knife world, as there are many unsatisfied customers out there. I was lucky. The two times I dealt with them, there were no problems. If anyone is considering doing business with them, I would encourage them to look at their report from the L.A. BBB. IIRC, the number of unanswered complaints was quite a bit higher just a few months ago. A bunch of them must be just outside the standard reporting period now.

$1 a piece for Sanyos would, however, be great. Has anyone found similar pricing elsewhere?


----------



## soffiler

A buck apiece for Sanyo's is pretty good when they are made in China, which my first batch were. They were all well-matched at 100% on ZTS, and on a full-discharge test on WMR equipment they proved to have about 85% of the capacity of a set of Surefires I had tested previously.

My next order of Sanyo's from Botach... lo and behold, they are not Chinese, they are made in Japan! Still a buck each. And these tested nearly identical to the Surefires.

My next order... still Japanese Sanyo's but now, Botach is claiming that if they run out of Sanyo they will substitute US-made Energizer e2. Still a buck.

No complaints here, yet, but I'd like to thank you guys for opening my eyes to their less than stellar customer service.


----------



## FiftyCalAl

Are the US made e2 Energizers better than the original testing samples, or are they similar/same, thus being on the low end of the "shoot out"? I love the Sanyo (Japan), but have had mixed results with Surefires.


----------



## soffiler

FiftyCalAl said:


> Are the US made e2 Energizers better than the original testing samples, or are they similar/same, thus being on the low end of the "shoot out"? I love the Sanyo (Japan), but have had mixed results with Surefires.


 
I have done partial (external only) disassembly of Duracell, Surefire, and Energizer e2 cells. They are literally identical under the wrapper. This involves a bit of forensic work - looking at toolmarks on the stamped parts under magnification, that sort of thing. The evidence that all three of these brands are coming from the same factory is extremely strong in my mind. I would generally expect that performance of each brand would be similar, assuming (big assumption) the chemistry used is the same. A while ago, I learned (probably from somewhere on CPF, not sure) that Panasonic is the only manufacturer with CR123A plants in the USA, so you are left to take a wild guess where all of the above-named cells must be coming from...


----------



## nuggett

After playing with various brands, I have settled on The new titaniums from Amondotech for use in my SF M6 and A2, excellent high current service.
Indistinguishable from the SF batts.


----------



## soffiler

nuggett said:


> After playing with various brands, I have settled on The new titaniums from Amondotech for use in my SF M6 and A2, excellent high current service.
> Indistinguishable from the SF batts.


 
Hi, nuggett:

Just wondering, indistinguishable how? Physical construction? Measured performance? Measured how?


----------



## nuggett

completely subjective, Steve


----------



## soffiler

nuggett said:


> completely subjective, Steve


 
Ah-ha, OK then.

As far as I know, Titaniums are made in China (and I've got a reminder to get myself some Titaniums for testing). SF are made in USA. Thus far, I've not seen a Chinese cell match a USA cell in performance, and I've got a quart-size ziplock baggie full of discharge-tested, dead CR123A's.


----------



## nuggett

The batterystations I had were awful, thermal shutdown in the M6 in less than 1 minute continous use. I returned 50 of them about 3 weeks ago, have yet to hear from them. While the Titaniums got warm, they behaved similiar to the SF batts I have. Good bang for the buck.


----------



## LED61

Someone please enlighten me on this. I have an engineering degree but not Electrical. I do however remember the formula PIV, and have noticed most batteries drop off to 2.5 volts quickly. Therefore I assume a surefire U2 at maximum output for 5 watts would draw 2 amps while 2.5 volt hold correct? Does this mean that the two top performers at this setting are the $1.00 batteries available from batterystation and amondotech for CPF'rs?


----------



## soffiler

LED61 said:


> Someone please enlighten me on this. I have an engineering degree but not Electrical. I do however remember the formula PIV, and have noticed most batteries drop off to 2.5 volts quickly. Therefore I assume a surefire U2 at maximum output for 5 watts would draw 2 amps while 2.5 volt hold correct? Does this mean that the two top performers at this setting are the $1.00 batteries available from batterystation and amondotech for CPF'rs?


 
Um, no. Surefire U2 uses two CR123A cells in series. So make that voltage 5.0 instead of 2.5, and now you see the current is actually around 1 amp. It's slightly higher than that, of course, because the regulator isn't 100% efficient. I haven't tested that particular regulator but an assumption of about 85% is realistic. So it probably draws around 5.9 watts (about 1.2 amps) in order to output 5 watts.

My engineering degree isn't electrical either. ME's do a little bit of everything.


----------



## LED61

Oh right I forgot about the two cells in series. So when we look for batteries for our U2 we should look at the 1 amp chart. One more thing, I just talked to Kevin in batterystation and he says he is thrilled by the excellent reviews but mentions that the Sanyo batteries have, according to their tests, consistently beaten their batteries accross the board. this came in reply to my combined order for some sanyo CR123A´s and batterystations CR123a¨s as well.


----------



## Handlobraesing

ttt


----------



## Mike89

After reading this thread I'm more confused now than I was before I read it on how cr123a compare with each other. I think a new review should be done with current batteries being this thread is two years old. A lot can happen in that length of time (that may change some results). Even Flashlightreviews has nothing current. They recommend both Battery Station and Titanium. Reading here rates them either good, very good, or not worth a crap. 

Haven't a clue which brand battery to get now. Seems I should just close my eyes, pick one and see how it goes.


----------



## chevrofreak

I ordered the 20 pack of Energizer CR123a's from Botac, but they must have been out of them and substituted the Rayovacs instead. The Rayovac cells seem to be the exact same thing as the Surefires. Apparently these same cells are sold under many different labels.







BTW, that's order #2 that I've received from Botac with no problems. Seems that if you order nothing but batteries you wont have a problem getting your package.

http://www.botac.com/enel3liba10.html


----------



## LED61

Mike89 said:


> After reading this thread I'm more confused now than I was before I read it on how cr123a compare with each other. I think a new review should be done with current batteries being this thread is two years old. A lot can happen in that length of time (that may change some results). Even Flashlightreviews has nothing current. They recommend both Battery Station and Titanium. Reading here rates them either good, very good, or not worth a crap.
> 
> Haven't a clue which brand battery to get now. Seems I should just close my eyes, pick one and see how it goes.


 
whatever you do don't mix different brands in series. Try to understand the graphs, they are fairly clear, and do mind the scales on some, lest them mislead you.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Mike,

Thanks for reminding me. I have been planning to put a table of the results in based on watt hours and haven't gotten around to it. I will move it up on the to do list.

This effort was started 2 years ago, but I am constantly testing cells and checking to see if the data presented is still relevant. The biggest change has been the change in manufacturing of the Sanyo cells from Japan to China. We saw a small drop in capacity from the cells that were made in China.

I pick up a couple of cells to run a cross check from time to time, however the bulk of this data was complied by the donations of myself and several other CPF people. This testing is not only labor intensive, but can get expensive as well.

If you would like to send me 8 or 10 cells of each brand, I would be happy to test them and post any differences in the results... You can PM me for my mailing address.

Tom


----------



## LED61

Silverfox, thanks for all your efforts. This data and input are most useful.


----------



## math314

According to https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/114094 , many lamps draw much more than 1.5 A of current. Since many CR123A lithium batteries state a maximum continuous current of 1.5 A, does this mean that many of the lamps we use in our flashlights are actually driving these batteries beyond their safe modes of operation?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Math,

I think you have to differentiate between the safe limit and the design limit.

You may be able to subject a battery to a current higher than the design limit, but you are in uncharted territory. The usual result is that the battery gives up some of its capacity as heat, however if it gets too hot, it could become a safety issue.

Tom


----------



## math314

So you're saying that something like 2.5 A is beyond the "design limit" but likely still within the "safe limit?"


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Math,

Correct.

Keep in mind that you should not expect the cycle life, voltage under load, and capacity to be the same as when you are using the cells within the design limits.

Tom


----------



## LED61

Tom, how would you feel about testing the best performers at 2.0 or 2.5 amps. I could arrange to ship you some Sanyo's, SF's, BS, and Titanium to see the shootout among these at those high current drain rates.


----------



## hxsilva

SilverFox and others, I just have to say you have done a great job on this thread thank you. 

I do have a small contribution, I have ordered from Botac twice, once in May and Oct. The first time I ordered a Streamlight TLR-2 Laser/Light for my XD and a 10 pack of Energizers. After I placed the order I started to look at their feedback and comments online. I was mortified I called and asked if I would be having the same problems, but they assured me the order would go out that day, it did. I was very timid about ordering from them but I went ahead and did it. The next order was shipped two weeks after I placed the order and instead of receiving the e2 batteries I odered, I received Rayovac batteries but after reading your reviews and opinions I settled down and decided to keep the 80 batteries I ordered, I ordered a 20 for a friend the rest are for myself. I am going to remain timid in ordering from them but I am strongly considering the Pelican 1020 with the 123 battery seperators for 15 bucks. http://botac.com/pebastca.html


----------



## SilverFox

Hello LED,

That would be great. I have some data at higher rates, but this would provide a cross check with my earlier testing.

PM me for an address.

Thanks.

Tom


----------



## soffiler

Silverfox: my most recent order of Sanyo's from Botach (late June '06) were made in JAPAN, but prior to that (early April '06) they were made in CHINA. I just checked and the botach website currently states the Sanyo's are made in Japan. And they'll substitute Made in USA Energizers if they're out of Sanyo's. For a buck each. Botach seems to have cultivated a poor customer service reputation, but I am thumbs-up on three out of three orders with them.

Chevrofreak: on that chart you posted, where were those Sanyo's made? My testing indicates the Chinese Sanyo's are down about 15% vs. either Japanese or USA cells. Based on that I strongly suspect your Sanyo's are Chinese.


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

LED61 sent me a whole bunch of cells to test. This round of testing is to check how the various brands of cells handle 2.5 amps of draw. This seems to be the upper limit of what the high output lamp assemblies draw in the SureFire M6 and others.

I will be adding graphs to the first post showing the results. This round of testing will show the variation between 4 cells of each brand tested. These cells are not designed for a steady draw this large, so any weakness or variation in the cells will show up.

This is going to be very interesting...

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

The Titanium CR123 test results are posted.

Tom


----------



## Hog

Where are these posted please.

Hog


----------



## moldyoldy

Where are these results posted? probably in the sticky at the beginning of the forum:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/67078

Tim


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Hog and Tim,

The results are posted in the first post of this thread.

Tom


----------



## LED61

:goodjob: Tom, thanks, edited premature comments out and save them for later when results are complete.


----------



## Hog

Thanks for the great info.

Hog


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I added the results from the Sanyo (Made in Japan) cells. I don't have any of the Made in China Sanyo cells to compare with, however usually the Japan cells have tested higher.

It is interesting to compare the Watt Hour results between the Titanium and Sanyo cells...

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Alberto,

Don't hold back...  I think this round of testing will have us all wondering what is going on at these high current draws.

Tom


----------



## LED61

SilverFox said:


> Hello Alberto,
> 
> Don't hold back...  I think this round of testing will have us all wondering what is going on at these high current draws.
> 
> Tom


 
Tom, GULP!! I´m glad I held back on my comments, it would be too confusing a week from now when all graphs are in to see a post with partial judgement. Your posting on Sanyo cells is exactly what I was worried about. My deleted comments were going to put down Titaniums based on the graph, but they might actually be among the top performers if my runtimes in the M6 are any indication. And come to think of it, all the cells had fairly nice runtimes and the one that was off had excellent runtime. I wont say anymore for now don´t want to stick my foot in my mouth.


----------



## SilverFox

I forgot to add the cautions from the battery manufacturers. The manufacturer of the Titanium cells does not recommend using their batteries in applications that draw a constant 2.5 amps. Sanyo also has the same recommendation against these high constant current draws. BatteryStation also shares the same recommendation against these high constant current draws. I believe Kevin mentioned that their cells are optimized for around a 1.0 amp draw.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

BatteryStation cell data has been added to the first post.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

SureFire test results have been added to the first post. Since SureFire recommends their cells in their lights, and since they say that it is OK to run a M6 continuously, does this mean that this amount of variability between cells is OK?

All I can say is that 2.5 amps continuous is pushing these CR123 cells a little beyond their limits...

Tom


----------



## bwaites

Tom, the Tenergy cells seemed to do pretty well at 2.5 amps or am I not reading the graphs right?

Bill


----------



## Size15's

Tom, 
Your testing appears to be the result of a lot of hardwork so I was wondering whether you can help me understand your test results by answering a few questions on the 2.5 Amp tests -

Can your test results be applied to actual constant-on use of the M6 (MN21)?
Does your testing indicate there will be user observable variability in the runtimes of their M6 when powered by firstly six SF123A cells, and secondly by six CR123A cells of other brands?

Can your test results be used to state with reasonable confidence that if you used brand x CR123A batteries instead of SureFire's SF123A batteries you will have observably brighter, whiter light for longer, more consistently from each set of six cells you use?

Thanks,
Al


----------



## bwaites

The sample sizes are pretty small, and I think these are just indications, not hard and fast numbers, but I would be interested in seeing some additional testing on larger sample sizes.

I also wonder if the variability in cells is the major factor as to why sometimes the M6 shuts down and others it doesn't. 

The other question I have is: 

Why the heck is there so much freaking variability between cells? These things are built by computer controlled machines where the ingredients are measured down to the last nanogram. The only industry with tighter tolerances MIGHT be the pharmaceutical industry!

On top of that, some of these cells are supposedly built in the same factories and on the same lines!

Bill


----------



## David_Campen

> The other question I have is:
> 
> Why the heck is there so much freaking variability between cells? These things are built by computer controlled machines where the ingredients are measured down to the last nanogram. The only industry with tighter tolerances MIGHT be the pharmaceutical industry!
> 
> On top of that, some of these cells are supposedly built in the same factories and on the same lines!


Because the 2.5 amp discharge is stressing these cells well beyond their design limits to near the point of failure. At these discharge rates the cell is literally self destructing. I am trying to think of an analogy. Here is one, say redline for a certain automobile engine is at 4,000 rpm; if a number of these engines were run at 6,000 rpm they would not all fail at the same time.


----------



## bwaites

David, 

I could live with that if there wasn't so much variability even at lower discharge rates!

Bill


----------



## LED61

I had the opportunity a while ago to talk to a senior tech support member at surefire and asked him about extended runs using HOLA´s. He said the light was good for two 10 minute runs or four five minute runs if "extended runs" were needed. At no time did he recommend a complete 20 minute run.
Another Duracell engineer said it was OK to hit the Ultras with pulses of up to five amps, and short runs at 2.5 amps.
I guess this test by Tom´s hard work will shed a lot of light in visualizing how the different cells behave on high demand, and will tell us more or less how far we can run our lights at this amp draw rate. It´ll be safer now that we know a little better IMHO.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Al,

I am using a constant 2.5 amp load for the tests. The M6 uses the lamp filament for the load. The results are very close, but as the lamp dims down the current changes, so it is not "exactly" the same. It is a very good approximation though.

The whole reason for this round of testing was that Alberto noticed differences in brightness and run time using different brands of cells. The brightness is directly related to higher voltage under load. The differences in run times are caused by the way the cells handle this high a load.

Keep in mind that we are pushing things to the extreme here. No battery manufacturer recommends running CR123 cells at a constant 2.5 amps. When you push things to the limits, minor variations in production tolerances show up.

As Bill has pointed out, this is a very limited test sample. However, I do believe it is "representative" of what we are seeing in real world use. I am hoping to be able to draw some general conclusions at the end of this testing, and perhaps to offer some suggestions for using multiple cells in high drain applications.

I think I would be inclined to use a brand that had the least variation, and the highest voltage under load. The Watt Hours number would be a good way to compare that.

Of course, your habit of wanting the brightest and whitest beam is good. Several brands offer a tight curve until the very end. If you change batteries before you run them all the way down, a lot of the problems are eliminated.

It may be that the only way to keep up on this is to periodically pull a sample and run a test.

I was going to just present a comparison between brands on a single graph, however once I saw the variations, I decided to show that instead.

The other thing to consider is that I am testing a single cell in an open condition, and am seeing high temperatures. When you load a M6 with 9 cells and put it inside the light, the heat can be significantly higher.

I am open to any suggestions on how to make this testing more meaningful. 

Tom


----------



## greenLED

SilverFox said:


> The other thing to consider is that I am testing a single cell in an open condition, and am seeing high temperatures. When you load a M6 with 9 cells and put it inside the light, the heat can be significantly higher.


I was thinking it might be lower, since there's some thermal dissipation onto the user's hand (unless the light is mounted somewhere else during use). 

SilverFox, :thanks: so much for devoting so much time and money to do all this testing. There's excellent information for all of us to digest. :bow:


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I added data from some Made in USA Panasonic cells. These were individually packaged and it looks like I got cells from two separate batches.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

The Energizer data has been added. I don't know what happened to cell 3, but is seems different. Cell 4 is also a bit strange.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

The last entry in the high current testing is the Duracell cells. Both the Pro Cell and Ultra were tested. I think the Ultra comes out being the most consistent from cell to cell.

Please excuse the screw up on Cell 1 of the Pro Cell test at the beginning of the test. My cat decided to try to knock the test clamp around and give the cell a bit of a torture test... I was able to get the cell hooked back up for the latter part of the test, but the first part is a bit off.

I believe SureFire used the Duracell Ultra cells during the development of the M6. Now I can understand why.

Tom


----------



## Size15's

SilverFox said:


> I believe SureFire used the Duracell Ultra cells during the development of the M6. Now I can understand why.
> Tom


That makes sense since SureFire were using Duracell until they switched to their SF123A.



SilverFox said:


> Of course, your habit of wanting the brightest and whitest beam is good. Several brands offer a tight curve until the very end. If you change batteries before you run them all the way down, a lot of the problems are eliminated.


I do like my white light highs and I do replace batteries once I notice the brilliance has reduced so I hardly ever run any SureFire until the beam has obviously yellowed, and never (unless I'm doing a runtime test) run the batteries until there is no more light. That does mean I discard SF123As that still can be used in regulated LED lights but since I don't use a one-SF123A powered flashlight very often I've got a growing pile of batteries with the cream taken off the top of them...

Al


----------



## LED61

Tom, what else can I say but --what a fantastic job you've done!!! Now I know what I want to use and what not to use with my MN21 in the M6, or any HOLA in any other Surefire for those that have them for that matter.

A little observation if you would clarify this for me please. I don't know if I'm reading the graph wrong but the Procells seem to render the highest voltage under the load, around 2.3-2.35 V is this correct? not even the Ultra can match that despite running a little longer. I guess this would mean a brighter M6 for Al right ? If this is the case, I'd like to know what Jim has to say about this MN21 being driven at 7.0 V for a few minutes could it be possible ? maybe it would shorten the bulb life using these cells I don´t know, he has set his pack at 6.8V for good reason.:goodjob:

P.S. later, if you feel up to it, I can send more batteries and do a test at the exact load (1.2-1.3A?) that the LOLA's use and see how it comes out.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Alberto,

It is interesting that there is some differences between the Pro Cell and the Ultra. At 0.2 Amp Hours (or 4.8 minutes) the average voltage for the Pro Cell is 2.31 volts. The average voltage for the Ultra cells at the same point is 2.21 volts. I am not sure you would be able to see such a small difference.

It is interesting that in the first 4.8 minutes, the Titanium cells are also averaging 2.205 volts. 

I find it interesting that every time I try to answer a question with testing, more questions pop up...  I am now thinking that the test should be repeated with two, 10 minute runs, or perhaps four, 5 minute runs.

Oh well, so much to contemplate and do, and so little time to do it...  

Tom


----------



## bwaites

Tom,

Check out your Tenergy 2.5 amp run! Can you overly that on the Duracell and Surefire averages?

Bill


----------



## SilverFox

Bill Waites and I were chatting and the SureFire cells I tested had date codes of 2013 and 2014. Bill is wondering if newer cells may behave differently. He is sending me 4 cells with different date codes to test. 

It will be interesting to see if a different batch tests differently.

Tom


----------



## LED61

Tom, were you able to tell any exterior difference between the Ultras and Surefires ? I inspected both very closely and they seem to come from same manufacturer.


----------



## greenLED

Any thoughts on Varta brand 123's?


----------



## brightnorm

Tom,

Thank you for this extremely useful information and the time and work necessary to produce it. 

I just received 40 Titaniums from Amondotech and I simply can't find a date anywhere on any of the batteries. Ten in a row checked out at 129-130v and 100% on the ZTS so they can't be too ancient. Did I somehow receive an atypical batch? Sorry if this has been covered but I skimmed the entire thread to check before posting this. 

Brightnorm


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Brightnorm,

There was a bad batch of Titanium cells, and they were supposed to have been pulled from the market and dumped on eBay. I believe you received cells from the new batch. I just ordered from Amondotech and had similar ZTS results.

The 2.5 amp tests were done with the new batch of Titanium cells.

Tom


----------



## brightnorm

Thanks Tom. Do you know if Titanium cells will be dated in the future?

Brightnorm


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Brightnorm,

I have no information on that. 

Tom


----------



## coppertrail

brightnorm said:


> Tom,
> 
> Thank you for this extremely useful information and the time and work necessary to produce it.
> 
> I just received 40 Titaniums from Amondotech and I simply can't find a date anywhere on any of the batteries. Ten in a row checked out at 129-130v and 100% on the ZTS so they can't be too ancient. Did I somehow receive an atypical batch? Sorry if this has been covered but I skimmed the entire thread to check before posting this.
> 
> Brightnorm


F.Y.I., I just received 12 Titanium cells (not from Amondotech) and they are not dated.


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

Bill Waites and I were chatting and he wondered if a different batch of SureFire cells would test differently. The cells that I tested had a 2013 date on them. Bill checked his cells and they had a 2016 date on them. I am guessing that they are newer cells.

Bill sent me 4 cells to test and I have posted the results in the first post.

Tom


----------



## bwaites

It looks to me that the Surefire cells are fairly consistent within batches, but do have some variation between batches.

Bill


----------



## brightnorm

I just emailed Amondotech asking about the undated cells. I'll post when they reply.

Bob


----------



## brightnorm

Just got a reply from Jessica of Amondotech:

_I am sorry I do not have anwser for your questions. As you know, they are excellent quality CR123A._

Brightnorm


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Brightnorm,

   

Tom


----------



## brightnorm

Tom, that really is a direct quote. She speaks English a lot better than I speak Chinese! I figured a brief informational email quote from a commercial site is ok to post here.

(When I see three faces smiling at me I figure I must have done something wrong)  

I'm still puzzled about the lack of dates; never encountered that before.

BN


----------



## LED61

Same here, why don't they come up to par and date the batteries ?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Brightnorm,

Nothing wrong, I was just laughing... It was not exactly the response I had hoped for.

Tom


----------



## soffiler

Did they formerly datecode the cells, which has now disappeared?

Or have they never datecoded at all?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Steve,

I don't believe they ever used a date code.

Tom


----------



## greenLED

SiverFox, I just sent you a couple of Varta 123. From what I hear they're equivalent to other top brands and I'm curious to see what your test results show.


----------



## SilverFox

Update: 

CPF member Markcm asked me to check out the CR123 batteries that he sells on his web site at www.e-lectronics.net . I have added his 2.5 amp test results to the first post.

These cells are Made in China and rated at 1300 mAh. I think they did pretty good. All 4 terminated early due to temperatures > 140 F, so 2.5 amps is pushing them very hard. At lower current draws than this they should work pretty well.

Tom


----------



## Mike89

I notice there are also some primary 1800mAh CR123s on the website too that are actually cheaper than the 1300mAh ones.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Mike,

Those are high capacity, low current cells. The maximum continuous discharge rate for them is 10 mV. 

They work great in a MC2, but have way too much internal resistance to power the typical light that uses CR123 cells. I tried them in my ARC LSH-P. They ran for 30 seconds, then dimmed down.

The MC2 on low draws around 7 mA, so it is a perfect match for those cells.

I believe Mark said that those were originally designed for a smoke alarm.

Tom


----------



## Mike89

That's good info. I didn't see that info on the site. Both batteries were side by side and no info was given other than the MAh. If I would have went there to buy, I would have automatically got the higher MAh ones thinking they were better. Maybe something like that should be there on those batteries so someone doesn't make a mistake.


----------



## Markcm

Mike89 said:


> That's good info. I didn't see that info on the site. Both batteries were side by side and no info was given other than the MAh. If I would have went there to buy, I would have automatically got the higher MAh ones thinking they were better. Maybe something like that should be there on those batteries so someone doesn't make a mistake.



Hi Mike,

The complete specifications and application are provided, please check my 1800mAh CR123C product description page or the 1300 CR123a product description page.

As you have discovered, it is possible to view or purchase a product from my site directly from the category or search page before clicking to open the product description, I suggest always clicking to read the product description page before adding a product directly to your shopping cart.

I also follow up with any customers who purchase the 1800mAh to assure they understand the specification before I ship them to avoid issues on either end.

-Markcm
www.e-lectronics.net


----------



## mx125

I know i'm dragging up an old thread but it is a stickie and had a follow-up for Silverfox. 

I've noticed on other threads that some beleive that Surefire cells are made in the USA by Panasonic. Not all agree, but the idea is from credible people and makes sense. My dealer carries Pnansonic, but not Surefire, and if the performance to price is the same I'd rather not double my shipping costs etc. 

Some also suggest that although Surefires are made by mfr X they are to a different spec. However, I don't know anything about battery chemistry to know if there is more magic or 'performance options' that can be built into a 123 cell. 

Anyway, I wonded why this couldn't be/wasn't easily tested somewhere. If they are the same, they should perform equally. I found no other tests other than your suberb post. I see in your summary there are 2.5 amp tests of the Panasonic USA brand, but not at other voltage. 

Silverfox . .did you see any evidence in testing of Surefire/Panasonic geneology . . .and any data as to whther or not Surefires really do "burn hotter and whiter for longer" in general as some anecdotely state? 

Many thanks.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Old stuff, but interesting. Before SF carried their own line of CR123 batteries, they used Duracell CR123's. If you go here:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/67078

you will see that Surefire and Duracell are very close in watt/hours-scroll down first post. Surefire might be using rebranded batteries, but they do have enough clout to ask for their own chemistry mix for their batteries. So, who knows?

Bill


----------



## xiaowenzu

I just bought some Surefire CR123 and Duracell Ultra CR123.. I haven't tested yet but I think the Ultras will be slightly better. 

*ANYWAY, *what is the conclusion of this thread? From SilverFox's tests, can somebody please tell me which batteries is the BEST? 




Bullzeyebill said:


> Old stuff, but interesting. Before SF carried their own line of CR123 batteries, they used Duracell CR123's. If you go here:
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/67078
> 
> you will see that Surefire and Duracell are very close in watt/hours-scroll down first post. Surefire might be using rebranded batteries, but they do have enough clout to ask for their own chemistry mix for their batteries. So, who knows?
> 
> Bill


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Analyze the data. It is for you to decide. Study, study. If you are not sure what the data means then do more researching. Re-read the 123 Battery Shoot Out thread. Takes time but it is sort of fun, and you learn, learn, learn.

Bill


----------



## LED61

My favorites are the Duracell Procells followed by the Duracel Ultras. They also rank #1 and #2 respectively in price.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Xiaowenzu,

In addition to what Bill said, you also need to study your application. Once you understand your current needs, then you can focus on the specific discharge curve that comes closest to what you are using and do a comparison.

For example, the Milkyspit MC2 works well with any cell, however the SureFire M6 was designed around the performance of the Duracell cells.

Tom


----------



## mx125

SilverFox said:


> Hello Xiaowenzu,
> 
> In addition to what Bill said, you also need to study your application. Once you understand your current needs, then you can focus on the specific discharge curve that comes closest to what you are using and do a comparison.
> 
> For example, the Milkyspit MC2 works well with any cell, however the SureFire M6 was designed around the performance of the Duracell cells.
> 
> Tom


 
My main reason for my reviving of the thread was that I had seen and heard some recent claims that Panasonic made the SF's. I simply thought that would be easy enough (for someone smarter than me!) to test. If they are the same, they should perform the same. If the results are clearly different then those claims can be factually dismissed. Or alternately, if PS do make them . .the formula would have to be different. 

But like all the tests here . . .the tester would need some samples . .and the original test was done on PS specifically for high voltage tests. I just thought there was more data I hadn't seen. 

Thanks.


----------



## js

Has anyone else been unable to load/see the graphs and tables in the first post of this thread?

I have tried different computers (both PC and Mac), different browsers, and different connections (i.e. both at work and at home). And in no case could I see the tables or graphs.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

And be sure to clear your browser cache to make sure you are really trying to load the images instead of just grabbing them from disk!

As for the Panasonic making SF123's, I've heard this as well, but I'm not sure I believe it and would also like to look into that claim some more.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Jim, works for me, PC laptop. AOL and Firefox.

Bill


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Jim,

Cleared everything, and it's still working fine for me...

Tom


----------



## LED61

Jim, works fine for me too.


----------



## mtn_dance

Works for me too. Same ISP at both locations? Even if not, I'll bet your ISP(s) is blocking images or at least the host where images and tables are hosted. You might want to contact them.


----------



## js

Well, damn it. I need that effing data. Why can't I get it? GRRRRRRRR.


----------



## js

So, I just copied and pasted the first table http into an open browser window and tried to load it. It's still trying. It says "Contacting img.photobucket.com", but it never either loads it or fails to load it.

The full http address I'm trying to load is as follows:

"http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/SilverFoxCPF/123Comparison1ATable.jpg".

Can anyone tell me what I can do about this?

Can anyone email me this jpg file to [email protected].

Can anyone tell me what the *%^&**(!!!! is going on?


----------



## bwaites

Jim,

Email sent, my ISP continues to have problems, so it is coming from a back up email account, but you should recognize it. 

My ISP did some major upgrade, and some things work amazingly well now, while others, like my outgoing email, work sporadically, if at all.

I am only able to even get on the board sporadically.

Bill


----------



## js

Thanks, Bill.

I have the table now, so that resolves my immediate problem.

However . . . I would *really* like to know what the heck is going on with this and why!


----------



## js

Well,

Here's something interesting. If I remove the "img" from in front of photobucket.com/... everything works fine.

In other words, I can see "http://photobucket.com/albums/v482/SilverFoxCPF/123Comparison1ATable.jpg" as an image, this image:







But not THIS image at this URL:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/SilverFoxCPF/123Comparison1ATable.jpg

What does the img subdomain do? Is it maybe considered a pop-up window or something?


----------



## LuxLuthor

Jim, I would bet that specific subdomain URL is being blocked by your ISP. I doubt you have a firewall or router rule that would cause something so specific, and I don't see this being a popup, script, or hijack blocker. You can rule out your browser if it happens also on Mac.

See what happens with your hops if you ping both URL's from a Start==>Run==>CMD window:* ping img.photobucket.com*
* ping photobucket.com*​then do tracert if the img one doesn't go through on ping:* tracert img.photobuck.com
*​It might show which ISP IP address is blocking it.


----------



## js

Thanks, Lux. That was extraordinarily helpful.

I was able to ping both with no problems. And I just tried to load the table through the img.photobucket.com domain, and it worked just fine.

Go figure?

Could it have been a DNS problem? When I tried traceroute it said that the img.photobucket.com had mutliple ip addresses. And after 18 or 19 entries, it went to entry after entry with just *** after them, and didn't complete.

Anyway, it doesn't matter anymore and I should probably stop gunking up Tom's thread with this!  Sorry, Tom.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Jim,

 

Glad you got it worked out. 

Tom


----------



## 4sevens

Hey Mr SilverFox 

I just became a Panasonic distributor and we contracted a boatload of
these Panasonic cr123a's. They claim to have the highest mah.
Can I send some your way to prove it?  These are genuine
and dated 2017 and they are actually made in the same state I'm in,
GEORGIA! Let me know.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello 4sevens,

I would be happy to do some testing on them. PM headed your way.

Tom


----------



## Art Vandelay

js said:


> Well,
> 
> Here's something interesting. If I remove the "img" from in front of photobucket.com/... everything works fine.
> 
> In other words, I can see "http://photobucket.com/albums/v482/SilverFoxCPF/123Comparison1ATable.jpg" as an image, this image:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But not THIS image at this URL:
> 
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/SilverFoxCPF/123Comparison1ATable.jpg
> 
> What does the img subdomain do? Is it maybe considered a pop-up window or something?


Thanks for the great chart SilverFox. BatteryStation did very well. They are right up at the top, over some that cost 2 times as much or more than the CPF discounted Bat. Sta. bats.


----------



## mx125

SilverFox said:


> Hello 4sevens,
> 
> I would be happy to do some testing on them. PM headed your way.
> 
> Tom


 
I'm very intersted in the results. Will you send an update post if/when you run the tests? . . . or is there a site I should monitor? Thanks again.


----------



## jayflash

When I read the chart last year, I thought Titanium was close to the top rather than the bottom, where it is now. My error or have things changed?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Mx125,

I will update this thread with the test results when they are completed.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Jayflash,

In the course of the testing, there ended up being two lots of Titanium batteries tested. The one near the bottom of the list was from the first lot. The second lot had an improved formula and is referred to in the chart as TitaniuNew.

As you can see, the improved formula tested out much better than the older one.

Tom


----------



## jayflash

Thanks SilverFox, sorry to have bothered you because when I looked again I found the "new". It's amazing how often I can't find something, right in front of me, until I ask for help. In spite of trying to correct for that known blind spot, things still elude me. Must be Murphy - right?

I think my batch, from late 06, is the new version and has an orange jacket.

Thanks, again.


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

As everyone knows... BatteryStation is now having their name brand cells Made in the USA. Kevin sent me a box of cells to check out. Thanks Kevin.

There has been some consistency issues with the BatteryStation cells. These inconsistencies seemed to show up in high drain applications utilizing multiple cells.

I have tested a bunch of these cells, and they all test about the same. These are very consistent from cell to cell. In addition, all of the cells tested at 100% on the ZTS. 

I am going to put some cells aside to see how well they "age," but this new batch of cell is doing very well.

I am comfortable enough with the "normal" testing to continue on to the 2.5 amp testing. I have not heard if Kevin recommends these cells for use in the SureFire M6, but I am going to run the tests anyway.

One thing I did note, the testing at 2 amps revealed cell temperatures getting hot. During the last few seconds of the test, I saw cell temperatures > 140 F. With that, I will issue a caution when using these cells. If you are drawing 2 amps or more from them, and continually run them down to 1.0 volts under load, you may want to make provisions to handle some hot cells.

I might also point out that these cells are rated as 1400 mAh. I ran a 0.28 amp test and they came in closer to 1600 mAh. 

Is it possible that we have one case of "truth in advertising?"

Tom


----------



## WildChild

SilverFox said:


> Update:
> 
> As everyone knows... BatteryStation is now having their name brand cells Made in the USA. Kevin sent me a box of cells to check out. Thanks Kevin.
> 
> There has been some consistency issues with the BatteryStation cells. These inconsistencies seemed to show up in high drain applications utilizing multiple cells.
> 
> I have tested a bunch of these cells, and they all test about the same. These are very consistent from cell to cell. In addition, all of the cells tested at 100% on the ZTS.
> 
> I am going to put some cells aside to see how well they "age," but this new batch of cell is doing very well.
> 
> I am comfortable enough with the "normal" testing to continue on to the 2.5 amp testing. I have not heard if Kevin recommends these cells for use in the SureFire M6, but I am going to run the tests anyway.
> 
> One thing I did note, the testing at 2 amps revealed cell temperatures getting hot. During the last few seconds of the test, I saw cell temperatures > 140 F. With that, I will issue a caution when using these cells. If you are drawing 2 amps or more from them, and continually run them down to 1.0 volts under load, you may want to make provisions to handle some hot cells.
> 
> I might also point out that these cells are rated as 1400 mAh. I ran a 0.28 amp test and they came in closer to 1600 mAh.
> 
> Is it possible that we have one case of "truth in advertising?"
> 
> Tom



Did you test the Panasonic 4sevens sells? How are they?


----------



## jayflash

Panasonic produced some of the best cells way back in the 70s & 80s. They carried a Good Housekeeping seal and were usually leak free with good capacity. Throughout the last 15 years they were often sold at RayO Vac prices with near Duracell capacity. 

Ray O Vac has opened a plant in Georgia, too, IIRC, along with its, existing, Wisconsin facilities. I wonder if there's a cross connection between the two manufacturers?


----------



## Mike89

I think this thread has lost some of its usefulness. It started back in 2004 and a lot of the info then might not be the same now (since things change, different makers, different plants, different manufacturing processes, etc).

I think it would be more useful to make a thread like this for each year with its own testing again. That way people know what performance the battery has now instead of years ago (when it might not be the same now).


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Mike,

While the thread was initiated in 2004, the latest updated information was posted today... I test new cells as they come in to see how they compare to the posted results. If there is a big change, I will post a new set of graphs.

If you happen to have some cells that you are interested in having me check out and test, feel free to send them my way. I generally go through 4 or 8 cells per batch.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I added the results from testing the BatteryStation cells at 2.5 amps. As expected they got hot at the end of the test, but they were quite consistent and performed well.

Tom


----------



## koala

Hi Tom,

Do cells like Energizer, Sanyo, Panasonic, Duracells, Surefire heat up like the BatteryStation cells? If so how hot? Thanks for sharing your work.

Vince.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Vince,

SureFire with a 2016 date on them, the old BatteryStation, and Sanyo Japan cells have heated up in a similar fashion.

Tom


----------



## LED61

Hi Tom, any news on the newer Duracell Ultra cells ? I'm wondering if the factory swap has altered their performance at all. I think not since when we sent the first set the factory swap had already taken place.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Alberto,

I have a package of cells right here. I am going over what tests I am going to run on them before starting.

Stay tuned.

Tom


----------



## Flash_Gordon

Just ordered some batteries from Battery Junction. While there I found this:

"Panasonic makes many of the CR123A 'brands' you already know including Surefire, Streamlight and many others. Perhaps the best CR123A battery made, at any price."

I don't know if this adds a factual answer to our genealogy questions or if it is just a more official sounding speculation.

Mark


----------



## Alan B

SilverFox said:


> Hello Mike,
> 
> While the thread was initiated in 2004, the latest updated information was posted today... I test new cells as they come in to see how they compare to the posted results. If there is a big change, I will post a new set of graphs.
> 
> If you happen to have some cells that you are interested in having me check out and test, feel free to send them my way. I generally go through 4 or 8 cells per batch.
> 
> Tom


 
Tom, I just want to thank you for all the effort here. Really excellent information.

Rather than a new thread each year, perhaps just marking the data in the table on all cells with the year the cell was new, or the year they expire, as you are starting to do with the new BatteryStation, would help. Perhaps if you retest, and the data is similar, that could be indicated by a comma separated list of versions tested, such as "Xyzbrand 2002, 2005, 2007". This is very helpful in understanding the consistency and appreciating the extra testing that is not explicitly shown.

Thanks!

-- Alan


----------



## soffiler

Flash_Gordon said:


> Just ordered some batteries from Battery Junction. While there I found this:
> 
> "Panasonic makes many of the CR123A 'brands' you already know including Surefire, Streamlight and many others. Perhaps the best CR123A battery made, at any price."
> 
> I don't know if this adds a factual answer to our genealogy questions or if it is just a more official sounding speculation.
> 
> Mark


 
Occasionally, I peel the labels off CR123A cells to observe the details of the can, crimp, insulators, lot and date codes, etc. Based on this I can tell you: Duracell, Energizer, SureFire, Streamlight, and Ray-O-Vac all appear identical under the wrapper. This is not conclusive, but, I am of the opinion that there are many subtle details they all have in common that would not be common if they were coming from different places. No one would put extra work into making them look identical just to confuse people like us.

Beyond that... just how big is the market for CR123A cells in the USA? They are mostly labelled and marketed as "Photo" batteries, yet, no digital camera (that I've seen) uses them. They're apparently used mostly in the dwindling world of compact film cameras, and flashlights of course, but the Photo in the name gives us some clue what their marketing people think. I'm skeptical that the USA consumes enough CR123A cells to warrant bringing a second factory online. It's all conjecture but it boils down to the same thing: all the Made In USA CR123A cells are coming from the same place, and I've been told by reliable sources that the place is owned by Panasonic.

Anyone with better, more factual info.... I'm all ears!


----------



## ltiu

soffiler said:


> Beyond that... just how big is the market for CR123A cells in the USA? They are mostly labelled and marketed as "Photo" batteries, yet, no digital camera (that I've seen) uses them. They're apparently used mostly in the dwindling world of compact film cameras ...


 
Yah, my mom's old 35mm camera uses CR123A's. When she bought it, it came with one CR123A. My jaw dropped the first time I replaced the battery, a brand new one cost something like $15!!! This was before I became a flashaholic and found cheaper sources of CR123As.


----------



## AndyTiedye

CR123As are good for the film cameras that only come out of the closet about once a year due to their long shelf life.


----------



## LumenHound

SilverFox said:


> Update:
> 
> I added the results from testing the BatteryStation cells at 2.5 amps. As expected they got hot at the end of the test, but they were quite consistent and performed well.
> 
> Tom


 
If time permits, could you please post this data in a chart with the same vertical volts and horizontal amphour scales as the 10 previous CR123A 2.5 amp load charts?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello LumenHound,

Oops... I even have a sticky that is supposed to remind me to do that.

How's that?

Tom


----------



## LumenHound

:thumbsup:


----------



## ltiu

AndyTiedye said:


> CR123As are good for the film cameras that only come out of the closet about once a year due to their long shelf life.


 
I agree, my mom's camera shoots 35mm so that's only 24 shots per film. On a good yearb when she travels a lot, she goes through maybe 12 films a year at the most. So that's only about 324 shots per year. A single CR123A can take about 300 shots with the flash on so there you are, about one CR123A per year at the most. $15 per year is not that bad then.

It's only when you start using digital cameras is when you lose control and start shooting many many many pictures and suck batteries dry in just a day at the zoo.

I just realized, CR123A are used quite a bit in the medical industry. So we do have a lot of demand and a decent sized market for these types of batteries.


----------



## soffiler

ltiu said:


> ...I just realized, CR123A are used quite a bit in the medical industry. So we do have a lot of demand and a decent sized market for these types of batteries.


 
That's interesting. Where in the medical industry?


----------



## ltiu

soffiler said:


> That's interesting. Where in the medical industry?


 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/173136&highlight=223


----------



## soffiler

ltiu said:


> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/173136&highlight=223


 

OK, that's one: Silverhawk Plaque Excision System. The OP said his hospital was one of the top 5 in the country and they've done 1200 procedures. This does not appear to be a major consumer of CR123A cells to me.

Any more medical uses? Anyone?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Steve,

If you are into gamma detection, here is another medical application...

Or, how about intubation?

Also, some medical scales also use CR123 cells.

Tom


----------



## soffiler

Hi Tom:

Mostly, I'm wondering out loud (see post #311) just how big the CR123A market really is.

A lot of them are labelled "Photo Lithium" yet I've searched and cannot find a single digital camera that uses them... which apparently leaves only film cameras - which are not exactly a growth market.

What I'm really wondering is whether worldwide demand for Made-In-USA CR123A's is large enough to warrant more than one or two(?) production facilities in the USA.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Steve,

They are also cropping up in home defibrilator units.

Tom


----------



## ltiu

soffiler said:


> OK, that's one: Silverhawk Plaque Excision System. The OP said his hospital was one of the top 5 in the country and they've done 1200 procedures. This does not appear to be a major consumer of CR123A cells to me.
> 
> Any more medical uses? Anyone?


 
If you noticed in one of the posts, batteries are regularly exchanged out of medical equipment that's been left standing for a while, regardless of the charge remaining in the battery or whether the battery has ever been used at all. So that means plenty of CR123A are being thrown out without ever being used. I think that's a huge market right there just replacing all those batteries.

It also mentioned security companies that may have backup batteries in them security panels or alarms.

Not to mention if you can find someone who does all that battery change-outs, and see if you can have some of those old but unused batteries. That would be a bonanza.


----------



## soffiler

SilverFox said:


> Hello Steve,
> 
> They are also cropping up in home defibrilator units.
> 
> Tom


 

The more medical applications, the merrier! The medical industry will demand only the highest quality cells.


----------



## ltiu

soffiler said:


> Hi Tom:
> 
> Mostly, I'm wondering out loud (see post #311) just how big the CR123A market really is.
> 
> A lot of them are labelled "Photo Lithium" yet I've searched and cannot find a single digital camera that uses them... which apparently leaves only film cameras - which are not exactly a growth market.
> 
> What I'm really wondering is whether worldwide demand for Made-In-USA CR123A's is large enough to warrant more than one or two(?) production facilities in the USA.


 
Probably just "one" assembly line in a factory full of assembly lines. The factory may be a large one producing all sorts of battery types.

"Photo Lithium" may be a relic term when once upon a time, cameras still used them. All digital cameras now come with their own proprietary rechargeable batteries or are powered by AA or AAA. Some are even powered by AAAA.


----------



## soffiler

ltiu said:


> If you noticed in one of the posts, batteries are regularly exchanged out of equipment that's been left standing for a while, regardless of the charge remaining in the battery. So that means plenty of CR123A are being thrown out without ever being used. I think that's a huge market right there just replacing all those batteries.
> 
> Not to mention if you can find someone who does all that battery change-outs, and see if you can have some of those old but unused batteries. That would be a bonanza.


 

Well, I don't mean to argue, but one post talked about new 9V batteries for each and every patient... not what we're discussing. Another talked about using multiple catheters with a single "driver" despite the fact that each catheter ships with its own driver, so the drivers pile up after a while. In that case, they'd done a grand total of 1200 operations. Sorry, but, these applications aren't "huge" in my book. I'm looking for the kind of numbers that would keep an entire battery factory ticking - tens of thousands per day, millions per year.


----------



## ltiu

soffiler said:


> Well, I don't mean to argue, but one post talked about new 9V batteries for each and every patient... not what we're discussing. Another talked about using multiple catheters with a single "driver" despite the fact that each catheter ships with its own driver, so the drivers pile up after a while. In that case, they'd done a grand total of 1200 operations. Sorry, but, these applications aren't "huge" in my book. I'm looking for the kind of numbers that would keep an entire battery factory ticking - tens of thousands per day, millions per year.


 
Probably not one whole factory. As I said in my previous post, probably just a single assmebly line in one big factory that produced a lot of other batteries.

Efficiency is important, different batteries probably share the same components so one factory can produce many different types of batteries.

I wonder how many CR123A police and fire departments use. That could be another big user of CR123As.

How about the military?


----------



## soffiler

You're probably right about the factory... it's more likely just one line in a bigger plant. Nonetheless, my numbers are in the right magnitude. That one line should be doing tens of thousands per day, millions per year. If it's not, the economy of scale just isn't there.

Certainly, the military/LEO markets are probably pretty big.


----------



## ltiu

soffiler said:


> You're probably right about the factory... it's more likely just one line in a bigger plant. Nonetheless, my numbers are in the right magnitude. That one line should be doing tens of thousands per day, millions per year. If it's not, the economy of scale just isn't there.
> 
> Certainly, the military/LEO markets are probably pretty big.


 
Just thinking, if the battery factory shares assembly lines between different types and shares parts between different battery types, then the assembly line can be making CR123A one month and making other types the next. It does not have to be making just one type all the time.


----------



## Size15's

I suggest that companies supplying, lets say 'large' customers, ship multiple pallets of 38,400 CR123A's a month and quantities in the millions of CR123A batteries a year.


----------



## soffiler

ltiu said:


> Just thinking, if the battery factory shares assembly lines between different types and shares parts between different battery types, then the assembly line can be making CR123A one month and making other types the next. It does not have to be making just one type all the time.


 
I don't know that much specifically about battery manufacturing, but I make my living in manufacturing a variety of tools and lights mostly for the auto industry. I can assure you that what you're describing (flexible manufacturing lines) are VERY difficult to achieve. Not impossible, but certain products lend themselves more than others. I picture battery manufacturing as highly automated which is the antithesis of "flexible".


----------



## Floating Spots

While not medical, I know of two systems that use 123s.
The first are the 10 year smoke alarms (with the non-replaceable batteries.)
The second is a wireless home security system. The one I have seen uses a combination of 123 cells in all of the sensors. (Window, door, motion, smoke, CO, glass breakage...)
While not high on quantity, I think it is the aggregate markets that support these cells in quantities.


----------



## ltiu

soffiler said:


> I don't know that much specifically about battery manufacturing, but I make my living in manufacturing a variety of tools and lights mostly for the auto industry. I can assure you that what you're describing (flexible manufacturing lines) are VERY difficult to achieve. Not impossible, but certain products lend themselves more than others. I picture battery manufacturing as highly automated which is the antithesis of "flexible".



Thanks for sharing your view and experience.

I was actually thinking of the auto industry when I thought about flexibility.

I know that a lot of cars nowadays (from the same manufacturer) share the same chassis. They also share the same components such as tire rims, fuel pumps, door hinges, rear view mirrors and alternators to name a few. Just a thought though that perhaps battery manufacturing is doing the same thing.


----------



## soffiler

ltiu said:


> Thanks for sharing your view and experience.
> 
> I was actually thinking of the auto industry when I thought about flexibility.
> 
> I know that a lot of cars nowadays (from the same manufacturer) share the same chassis. They also share the same components such as tire rims, fuel pumps, door hinges, rear view mirrors and alternators to name a few. Just a thought though that perhaps battery manufacturing is doing the same thing.


 
This is an interesting discussion, although my point of view seems so different from yours that I hope it does not sound like I am arguing with you.

The way I see it, there are radical differences between cars and batteries, to the point that I do not believe you could possibly compare any aspect of their manufacture. Cars are large and complex; batteries are small and simple.

Car assembly is not highly automated. Yeah, they use automated welding robots to assemble chassis. Robots can be programmed to handle a number of different chassis configurations, so they are somewhat flexible. Beyond that, in general, there's a lot of human effort. Humans are extremely (infinitely?) flexible. Car assembly lines can be flexible.

CR123A batteries don't appear to share any of their mechanical parts with any other battery - there are no other batteries that are the same size as CR123A. In other words, which mechanical part(s) of a CR123A do you think might also fit in a 2032, or an AAA, a D-cell, etc? CR123A probably does share chemicals with certain other cells, but I think the configuration of the assembly line is highly dictated by the mechanical parts. Unlike car assembly lines, I think battery assembly lines are most likely highly dedicated to a single type and are excellent candidates for a high level of automation, but thus become highly inflexible.


----------



## ltiu

soffiler said:


> This is an interesting discussion, although my point of view seems so different from yours that I hope it does not sound like I am arguing with you.


 
Nope, just a good old fashion conversation between flashaholics (or batteryholics).



> CR123A batteries don't appear to share any of their mechanical parts with any other battery - there are no other batteries that are the same size as CR123A. In other words, which mechanical part(s) of a CR123A do you think might also fit in a 2032, or an AAA, a D-cell, etc? CR123A probably does share chemicals with certain other cells, but I think the configuration of the assembly line is highly dictated by the mechanical parts. Unlike car assembly lines, I think battery assembly lines are most likely highly dedicated to a single type and are excellent candidates for a high level of automation, but thus become highly inflexible.


 
One example is the CR223A battery have 2 CR123A batteries in them.

On a different note, I remember reading a few times on CPF that some D cell rechargeable batteries are actually AA batteries inside a D body - both the D and AA have the same mAh capacities.

Maybe, the market for D cell rechargeables is not big enough to warrant a separate assembly line and separate components hence they just put an AA battery inside a D body to re-use common components (the AA battery) and save money in manufacturing costs.


----------



## MorePower

ltiu said:


> On a different note, I remember reading a few times on CPF that some D cell rechargeable batteries are actually AA batteries inside a D body - both the D and AA have the same mAh capacities.
> 
> Maybe, the market for D cell rechargeables is not big enough to warrant a separate assembly line and separate components hence they just put an AA battery inside a D body to re-use common components (the AA battery) and save money in manufacturing costs.



CR123A cells are not made on flexible manufacturing lines. I can think of no consumer cell that is. Cells require some pretty specialized equipment to manufacture them, and even minor changes can result in pretty major retooling, so making entirely different cell sizes on the same line is right out.

Also, lower capacity rechargeable D cells are almost always made using sub-C cells inside, not AA cells. Some may use AAs, but most contain sub-Cs.


----------



## ltiu

MorePower said:


> CR123A cells are not made on flexible manufacturing lines. I can think of no consumer cell that is. Cells require some pretty specialized equipment to manufacture them, and even minor changes can result in pretty major retooling, so making entirely different cell sizes on the same line is right out.
> 
> Also, lower capacity rechargeable D cells are almost always made using sub-C cells inside, not AA cells. Some may use AAs, but most contain sub-Cs.


 
Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## ltiu

Just a thought, we don't need to produce millions of cells to justify an assembly line in a factory. That's probably why cr123a sells quite expensive.


----------



## soffiler

ltiu said:


> Just a thought, we don't need to produce millions of cells to justify an assembly line in a factory. That's probably why cr123a sells quite expensive.


 
If factory "A" has developed a manufacturing capacity that is pretty well-matched to the marketplace demand, they're probably running pretty efficiently. If factory "B" gets a notion to jump into this market, but can't justify very large volumes (due to the existance of factory "A"), they probably can't be as efficient, and their product will cost more, and they'll sell very little.

That is the underlying thesis I've been using to support the notion that there's still only one factory in the USA making CR123A - Panasonic. There have been some rumors/inputs that a second factory is now also operating in the USA, and I've expressed my doubts based on the above in combination with my own observations of CR123A product bearing "Made In USA" - they all look identical under the wrapper i.e. all coming from the same place.

And once again, I'll be happy to be proven wrong by somebody with FACTS!


----------



## ltiu

soffiler said:


> And once again, I'll be happy to be proven wrong by somebody with FACTS!


 
Where is this Panasonic factory located?

I wonder how one can go about researching about this, call the manufacturer?

Just a thought: The batteries could have been made by the same type of machine that produces look alike batteries, but made in different factories. No proof, just a thought that look alike does not mean from the same factory.

One good thing, with almost everything Made in Somewhere else nowadays, it's good to know some things are still Made in the USA. e2 Lithium L91s and Energizer alkalines are too. But I see Duracells are not.


----------



## soffiler

ltiu said:


> Where is this Panasonic factory located?


 
Working from memory I seem to recall it's in Georgia but please don't quote me, my memory isn't fantastic.



> Just a thought: The batteries could have been made by the same type of machine that produces look alike batteries, but made in different factories. No proof, just a thought that look alike does not mean from the same factory.


 
Actually, I've already dealt with this idea in an earlier posting, but I'll reiterate here. I am not saying they just casually look kinda-sorta the same under the wrapper. I am talking about a close visual inspection under magnification, where little things can be observed, like marks left by crimpers, the dots of the inkjet that marks lot and date codes, etc, etc. They appear _identical_. It's not totally conclusive but it's pretty darn close. What I said earlier is that no second factory would go out of its way to duplicate these various little details simply to confuse people like us.

Now, if it's a second _Panasonic_ factory, well, that's a different story... you'd expect them to be using the same parts and assembly techniques as the first factory.


----------



## soffiler

I believe Georgia is correct:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2200846&postcount=132


----------



## mx125

Wouldn't a test of the Panasonics show pretty clearly if they are similar? Some suggest Surefire specifies a specific chemstry. . .but again . .a test among the others should show. If they test as well . . .then they work as well, no? Having said this, they may have been added to the results since the last time I checked.


----------



## ltiu

It is possible that the same factory with the same assembly line can produce multiple different battery chemistries to satisfy each customer's tech specs.


----------



## ltiu

Comparing battery spec sheets. 

Looking at the pulse cycle discharge graphs (aka Typical Perfromance, aka Temprature Characteristics, aka Typical Discharge Characteristics).

Specifically, for 3 sec on at 900mA, 27 sec off at 20 celcius to 1.55v.

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_Lithium_CR2_CR123A.pdf

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/123.pdf

http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/new/Li123_US_OS.pdf

Energizer and Duracells looks exactly alike, at 20/21 celcius to 1.55v, each can give more than 2000 cycles. Panasonic looks way off, at 20 celcius, it can only give about 1850 cycles.

Just wondering. Panasocnics have more mAh rating at 1550 vs. 1500 for Duracell and Energizer. But Panasonic performance charateristics are way below. Still possible made in the same factory, I suppose?


----------



## louie

At the risk of steering off topic, I note that a couple of camping water purifiers use CR123s:

http://www.rei.com/product/709012
http://www.rei.com/product/750366

Not exactly a huge market....


----------



## dano

The ONLY U.S. made 123A's come from Panasonic, out of Columbus, Georgia.

That means that Surefire, Ray-o-Vac, Streamlight, Night-Ops, Energizer are all made by Panasonic, as long as they say Made in the USA.

Duracell used to have a factory in Texas, I think, but when Gillette sold Duracell to Proctor & Gamble, that factory was closed, hence, some Duracell 123's look different, but have the Duracell label, as P&G outsources them.

--dan


----------



## ltiu

dano said:


> The ONLY U.S. made 123A's come from Panasonic, out of Columbus, Georgia.
> 
> That means that Surefire, Ray-o-Vac, Streamlight, Night-Ops, Energizer are all made by Panasonic, as long as they say Made in the USA.
> 
> Duracell used to have a factory in Texas, I think,



Aha! A second factory in the USA!



> but when Gillette sold Duracell to Proctor & Gamble, that factory was closed, hence, some Duracell 123's look different, but have the Duracell label, as P&G outsources them.
> 
> --dan



Hrrmmm, I wonder where Duracells are made? On http://www.fenix-store.com, it says their Panasonic CR123A's are made to the same specs as Duracell Ultra DL123A:

https://www.fenix-store.com/product_info.php?cPath=53_59&products_id=367

But are Duracells not made in the same factory as Panasonics, In wonder?


----------



## Mike89

> That means that Surefire, Ray-o-Vac, Streamlight, Night-Ops, Energizer are all made by Panasonic, as long as they say Made in the USA.


 
Wouldn't that also include Battery Station?


----------



## soffiler

dano, it certainly sounds like you know exactly what you're talking about.

ltiu and Mike89, if you take dano at face value, clearly you can stop wondering where things come from: if it's a CRCR123A and it says "MADE IN USA" it comes from the Panasonic factory in Georgia. Couldn't be simpler.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

If all USA batteries are rebadged Panasonic's from Georgia then Tom's tests of USA made CR123's would not show significant differences in performance, including any heat issues? Tom's tests do show some significant diffferences. So will Panasonic produce CR123's with different specs for different companies such as Surefire. Just wondering.

Bill


----------



## soffiler

Bullzeyebill said:


> If all USA batteries are rebadged Panasonic's from Georgia then Tom's tests of USA made CR123's would not show significant differences in performance, including any heat issues? Tom's tests do show some significant diffferences. So will Panasonic produce CR123's with different specs for different companies such as Surefire. Just wondering.
> 
> Bill


 
For one thing, it should be understood that some normal variation in performance will be seen from cell to cell, even those that are of the same brand, built in the same lot, even built one right after the other. On top of that, Tom's test apparatus is only capable of some particular level of accuracy/precision - it's not perfect. The best way to deal with these variations is to attempt to wash them out statistically by testing a fairly large number of cells. As far as I know, Tom's published data is measured on single cells.

I don't know exactly what "normal" would be for the above, but a first-pass estimate of a few percent for each seems reasonable.

Looking at the data at 1 amp:

Duracell 3.167 Whr
ROV 3.158 Whr (-0.3%)
SF 3.123 Whr (-1.4%)
SL 3.099 Whr (-2.1%)
BS '07 3.003 Whr (-5.2%)

I'd argue that all five of the above, being within about 5% of each other, cannot be called "signficantly" different although my assessment of what is significant is just my own rough estimate.

On top of that, it is rumored that different brands may specify differences in chemistry, and/or possibly even differences in QC to sort out the lower performers, or whatever.


----------



## MorePower

soffiler said:


> For one thing, it should be understood that some normal variation in performance will be seen from cell to cell, even those that are of the same brand, built in the same lot, even built one right after the other. On top of that, Tom's test apparatus is only capable of some particular level of accuracy/precision - it's not perfect. The best way to deal with these variations is to attempt to wash them out statistically by testing a fairly large number of cells. As far as I know, Tom's published data is measured on single cells.
> 
> I don't know exactly what "normal" would be for the above, but a first-pass estimate of a few percent for each seems reasonable.
> 
> Looking at the data at 1 amp:
> 
> Duracell 3.167 Whr
> ROV 3.158 Whr (-0.3%)
> SF 3.123 Whr (-1.4%)
> SL 3.099 Whr (-2.1%)
> BS '07 3.003 Whr (-5.2%)
> 
> I'd argue that all five of the above, being within about 5% of each other, cannot be called "signficantly" different although my assessment of what is significant is just my own rough estimate.



5% difference is completely believable for testing of this type. There are so many factors affecting cell performance that a 5% difference is far from significant. For instance, a difference in the temperature of the room by only a few degrees is enough (especially at high rates of discharge) to affect the results as laid out above.



soffiler said:


> On top of that, it is rumored that different brands may specify differences in chemistry, and/or possibly even differences in QC to sort out the lower performers, or whatever.



It must also be kept in mind that some of the data in this shoot-out is a few years old. Changes in materials used to build cells occur regularly, so direct comparison of cells produced over a year ago to current production is not necessarily valid.


----------



## resistance1

We should get a set of AW's new r123a cells in this.


----------



## nzgunnie

resistance1 said:


> We should get a set of AW's new r123a cells in this.



This post is about primary cells, 

This post:https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/117117
is for Li-ions, I'm not sure that it covers AWs latest cells though, but it's the appropriate place to find that info.


----------



## dano

Here's some differences between the older Gillette Duracells and the P&G outsources:

--Gillette Duracells had a metal ring around the positive end and a black membrane around the negative end (that's covered by the label. The ones I have show an expiration date of 2013 (manufactured in 2003).

Panasonic Duracells have the usual Pansonic characteristics: Black plastic ring with a hexagonal cutout for the positive end, and a green membrane around the negative end, under the label, but visible if you look at the negative end on an angle. These have an expiration date of 2015 (manufactured in 2005).

I still have two Duracell 123's that came with a Surefire 6C, probably from the mid 80's. These have a shiny shrinkwrap around the positive end, and the positive nipple has a vent hole cut into it. They still have enough juice to power the light ( I saved them to keep the 6C all original--but I wouldn't trust them to power anything for a long periord of time, due to their age, etc).

-dan


----------



## ltiu

dano said:


> Here's some differences between the older Gillette Duracells and the P&G outsources:
> 
> --Gillette Duracells had a metal ring around the positive end and a black membrane around the negative end (that's covered by the label. The ones I have show an expiration date of 2013 (manufactured in 2003).




I got some of these from Circuit City. In the form of 223. I got them for $4.23 per pack of one 223 (2 x 123). Expiry is 2013.


----------



## resistance1

nzgunnie said:


> This post is about primary cells,
> 
> This post:https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/117117
> is for Li-ions, I'm not sure that it covers AWs latest cells though, but it's the appropriate place to find that info.




sorry about that, still new here. now im off to that thread.


----------



## LED61

Guys, I just received a fresh shipment of Duracell Ultra 123´s from www.batteriesandbutter.com

Cost $1.70 each, MADE IN JAPAN!!!!! where the last ones including the ones Silverfox tested a year ago were made in the USA.


----------



## soffiler

LED61 said:


> Guys, I just received a fresh shipment of Duracell Ultra 123´s from www.batteriesandbutter.com
> 
> Cost $1.70 each, MADE IN JAPAN!!!!! where the last ones including the ones Silverfox tested a year ago were made in the USA.


 

Take a close look at them. Does the (+) button stick thru a hex-shaped hole in a black plastic insulator? On the (-) end, if you look at it from an angle, do you see a green plastic spacer, mostly hidden by the label?

If "yes" to both of the above, then I'd say you most likely have cells made by Panasonic's Japanese factory. I have some CR123A's branded "GE/Sanyo" and "Made In Japan" that look as I described above. It was explained to me (here, on CPF, somewhere) that Sanyo used to have their own factory but it was damaged by some natural disaster so they made a deal with Panasonic until they could get their own factory back online. I will say those Japanese cells look identical to what we see labelled "Made In USA" and they performed identically as well.


----------



## ltiu

Interesting!

http://www.batteriesandbutter.com/M...D&Product_Code=PANBR2-3A&Category_Code=CR123A

I wonder what makes it "for" and "not for" camera use???


----------



## 4sevens

Tom,
Did you get those Panasonics I sent you?


----------



## LED61

soffiler said:


> Take a close look at them. Does the (+) button stick thru a hex-shaped hole in a black plastic insulator? On the (-) end, if you look at it from an angle, do you see a green plastic spacer, mostly hidden by the label?
> 
> If "yes" to both of the above, then I'd say you most likely have cells made by Panasonic's Japanese factory. I have some CR123A's branded "GE/Sanyo" and "Made In Japan" that look as I described above. It was explained to me (here, on CPF, somewhere) that Sanyo used to have their own factory but it was damaged by some natural disaster so they made a deal with Panasonic until they could get their own factory back online. I will say those Japanese cells look identical to what we see labelled "Made In USA" and they performed identically as well.


 
Steve, yes to your questions. The thing I do not understand is that last time I bought 50 units at 2.00 each, while 48 procells cost 2.25 each. Now, the Ultras cost less for a batch of 50 and are made in Japan instead of the U.S., while the Procells I did not bother to buy as they now cost $2.50 each instead of 2.25. I don´t know what to think or what to expect performance wise.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

soffiler said:


> Take a close look at them. Does the (+) button stick thru a hex-shaped hole in a black plastic insulator? On the (-) end, if you look at it from an angle, do you see a green plastic spacer, mostly hidden by the label?
> 
> If "yes" to both of the above, then I'd say you most likely have cells made by Panasonic's Japanese factory. I have some CR123A's branded "GE/Sanyo" and "Made In Japan" that look as I described above. It was explained to me (here, on CPF, somewhere) that Sanyo used to have their own factory but it was damaged by some natural disaster so they made a deal with Panasonic until they could get their own factory back online. I will say those Japanese cells look identical to what we see labelled "Made In USA" and they performed identically as well.



I just checked my made in USA Streamlight and Surefire CR123's and they both have + nipple sticking throught a hex hole. Also, close looks shows the green plastic spacer on - end. The expiration dates are printed on the Surefire's and stamped on the Streamlight, or it appears to be stamped.

Bill


----------



## Probedude

I've caught the led flashlight bug and have a Romisen RC-F4 coming in the mail. Now I need to buy some CR123a's.

I've been using Sanyo CR123a's in the wife's camera but that's it. The wholesale place I buy from has Sanyo and Panasonics for about the same price (also ultralast but I wasn't impressed with their NiMH quality so I'll skip their CR123a's).

Between the two brands, which would you suggest I buy? 

TIA,
Dave


----------



## soffiler

Probedude said:


> ... The wholesale place I buy from has Sanyo and Panasonics for about the same price (also ultralast but I wasn't impressed with their NiMH quality so I'll skip their CR123a's).
> 
> Between the two brands, which would you suggest I buy?


 
Between Sanyo and Panasonic, I don't think you'd be able to detect any performance differences with one exception: for a while (this is about 1-2 years ago) there were some Sanyo's floating around that were Made In China. They were pretty good cells, to be honest (I tested some) and if you can score them for less than 3/4 of the cost of the Panasonic then you're getting a good deal. Sanyo or Panasonic made either in USA or Japan will be so close in performance that you should just select the less expensive one.


----------



## Probedude

soffiler said:


> Sanyo or Panasonic made either in USA or Japan will be so close in performance that you should just select the less expensive one.



Thanks much! The price difference is small ($1.38/ea panasonic vs $1.13/ea Sanyo.) I'll buy mostly Sanyos and throw in a Panasonic for comparison.

Dave


----------



## jcs71

silverfox;

I am pretty new to the type of lights that run on 123's. I read the tests and I think I understand it. The two questions I have is this:
1) I have decided to get the standard black Surefire G-2 Led. It has an aluminum bezel. Is this considered a high drain device since it is rated at 80 lumens for roughly 12 hours?

2) If ithe G-2 Led is not a high drain device then would I be ok to use the Energizer 123 lithium batteries? I am planning on ordering at least 40 at once. 

Thank you.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Jcs71,

Welcome to CPF. It looks like you have been around for a while, but just don't post often. At any rate, welcome to posting...  

!. No. A high drain device goes through a battery, or set of batteries, in less than one hour.

2. I think that the Energizer CR123 cells would work just fine.

Tom


----------



## Probedude

Probedude said:


> Thanks much! The price difference is small ($1.38/ea panasonic vs $1.13/ea Sanyo.) I'll buy mostly Sanyos and throw in a Panasonic for comparison.
> 
> Dave



I received my order today, here's what I bought, the weight, and where they are made as printed on the cells themselves.
- Panasonic - 16.5gm, USA
- Sanyo - 16.4gm, Japan
- Ultralast - 15.4gm, China

The Panasonic and the Sanyo construction looks identical, the top of the cells both have a plastic disc with a hexagonal hole punched through it for the 2 vent hole positive button to protrude, both have a green plastic ring on the bottom.

The Ultralast battery doesn't have the country of mfg on the cell itself, only on the package.


----------



## soffiler

jcs71 said:


> silverfox;
> 
> I am pretty new to the type of lights that run on 123's. I read the tests and I think I understand it. The two questions I have is this:
> 1) I have decided to get the standard black Surefire G-2 Led. It has an aluminum bezel. Is this considered a high drain device since it is rated at 80 lumens for roughly 12 hours?
> 
> 2) If ithe G-2 Led is not a high drain device then would I be ok to use the Energizer 123 lithium batteries? I am planning on ordering at least 40 at once.
> 
> Thank you.


 
Hi jcs71:

First of all, I totally agree with Silverfox's response.

Just for the record, the SF G2L w/ aluminum bezel does not produce 80 lumens for 12 hours. That's one of those twisted marketing specifications that SF is normally pretty immune to. I have tested my G2L at 4 hrs 10 min on Ray-O-Vac (Made In USA) cells, believed to be identical under the wrapper to SureFire cells. 4:10 is the time to reach 50% of initial stable output, which is a very common and imminently sensible (IMHO) specification. It's dropping pretty fast at that point, and by the 12 hour mark I recall it's making well under 5 lumens (per measurement by chevrofreak; I did not run my test that long). The way I see it, whatever I was doing with 80 lumens will be getting difficult with 40 lumens and impossible with 5 lumens.


----------



## Art Vandelay

soffiler said:


> Hi jcs71:
> 
> First of all, I totally agree with Silverfox's response.
> 
> Just for the record, the SF G2L w/ aluminum bezel does not produce 80 lumens for 12 hours. That's one of those twisted marketing specifications that SF is normally pretty immune to. I have tested my G2L at 4 hrs 10 min on Ray-O-Vac (Made In USA) cells, believed to be identical under the wrapper to SureFire cells. 4:10 is the time to reach 50% of initial stable output, which is a very common and imminently sensible (IMHO) specification. It's dropping pretty fast at that point, and by the 12 hour mark I recall it's making well under 5 lumens (per measurement by chevrofreak; I did not run my test that long). The way I see it, whatever I was doing with 80 lumens will be getting difficult with 40 lumens and impossible with 5 lumens.


Surefire gives runtimes of "useful light". Surefires LEDs have a longer and brighter "tail" after the flat regulation ends than other popular companies.


----------



## soffiler

Art Vandelay said:


> Surefire gives runtimes of "useful light". Surefires LEDs have a longer and brighter "tail" after the flat regulation ends than other popular companies.


 
We can agree to disagree, but I've already addressed the issue of "useful". Again: whatever I was doing that made me want to grab an 80-lumen flashlight is still possible but getting tougher at 40 lumens, and it is NOT possible at all with less than 5 lumens.

I also disagree completely with your characterization of their "tail". Out of regulation means the batteries have depleted to the point that the circuit can not function properly any longer. So, SureFire's circuit design might be stellar, but the thing is, the circuit isn't even in the picture any more during the "tail".


----------



## Art Vandelay

Here are some runtime charts for the Surefire P60L from Chevrofreak. He shows the G2L and the 6PL and has comparisons with the Fenix P3D, and he also shows runtime charts with different types and brands of batteries.

http://lights.chevrofreak.com/runtimes/Surefire P60L/

Runtimes charts give a much better picture than any one number could. Runtime to 50% is better than the more subjective useful light number.

Runtime to 50% can be manipulated as well. I don't know for sure if this was on purpose but one or two flashlights seem to have been tweaked to do misleadingly well on the flashlightreviews.com website tests. They had a brief burst of light when they would be measured for brightness, then the brightness dropped like a stone to just above 50% of initial brightness. Then it ran until the batteries were out. Fortunately, flashlightreviews.com had runtime charts so you could see what was going on.


----------



## py702

Any results from the Panasonic 1550 mah batteries? Do they really last longer with the slightly higher capacity?


----------



## bezel

ltiu said:


> Interesting!
> 
> http://www.batteriesandbutter.com/M...D&Product_Code=PANBR2-3A&Category_Code=CR123A
> 
> I wonder what makes it "for" and "not for" camera use???


 
This is interesting. I tried to do some research on these a few days ago. Ended up finding the Panasonic spec sheet (have no idea where it is now, sorry). But what appeared to be the very same yellow wrapped Panasonics were selling on numerious other web stores, mostly for around $10 each. It looked like they were mostly marketed as computer memory cells. The spec sheet said they were 1200 mAh and were ever-so-slightly shorter than a Panasonic 123A.

Has anyone tried these in a torch yet? On the linked site, you could get 'em for $0.50 each if you got 400.

bezel


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bezel,

Welcome to CPF.

You have to be careful because some of those cells are not designed for higher current draws. I have some CR123 1800 mAh cells that have a maximum current capability of around 50 mA. If you put them under a heavy load, they simply shut down and don't work.

Tom


----------



## bezel

Thanks Tom. Good point - it looked like Batteries and Butter was closing them out anyway, so there probably isn't much long-term benefit in expiramenting with them.

bezel


----------



## guiri

Great job! Anything like this but for rechargeable 123's?

Thanks

george


----------



## Cool Lumens

Just found CPF! Great Thread. I look forward to spending many hours around here!


----------



## Frankiarmz

guiri said:


> Great job! Anything like this but for rechargeable 123's?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> george


 
I hope you get a reply to your question, but my vote for a good 123 rechargeable would be the Tenergy 900MAH . I got mine from Batteryjunction.com. They've worked very well and charge evenly. Saved a ton of money.


----------



## guiri

Frank, what's a good mAh rating on a regular, non rechargeable 123?

Thanks and welcome to the new guy. This is a killer forum


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Guiri,

If you go to the first post in this thread you will find the capacities of several brands of CR123 cells at different loads.

Tom


----------



## dano

bezel said:


> This is interesting. I tried to do some research on these a few days ago. Ended up finding the Panasonic spec sheet (have no idea where it is now, sorry). But what appeared to be the very same yellow wrapped Panasonics were selling on numerious other web stores, mostly for around $10 each. It looked like they were mostly marketed as computer memory cells. The spec sheet said they were 1200 mAh and were ever-so-slightly shorter than a Panasonic 123A.
> 
> Has anyone tried these in a torch yet? On the linked site, you could get 'em for $0.50 each if you got 400.
> 
> bezel



Just to clarify, those cells are BR-2/3A size, NOT 123 size. They can only handle small current loads. Not applicable to most lights.


----------



## guiri

Silverfox, thanks but they are sorted by .5, 1 and 2 amps which I don't understand 

Also, what's the comment below yours about the size of the batteries?

Thanks guys

George


----------



## SilverFox

Hello George,

A batteries capacity is directly related to the load you put on it. I run tests at 0.5, 1.0, and 2.0 amps to show how the battery responds to different loads. 

If you happen to know the load your light puts on the battery, you can check the appropriate graph to get an idea of the performance of different brands.

I think Dan was pointing out that while the BR cells have more capacity, they are only capable of very low current loads. They don't work in most lights.

Tom


----------



## 4sevens

Tom,

Did you every get to test those Panasonics I sent you?
They claim to be 1550mah.


----------



## guiri

Fox, then how do I know before buying WHICH battery to get? I have no idea what load my flashlight/s are going to subject them to?


----------



## cdosrun

Hi Guiri,

for a rough idea, take a look at the run-time advertised for the torch you are interested in, and at the brightness you intend to use most. For instance, if the run-time is around 1-1.5 hours on a single-celled light, the current draw may be in the region of 1A. If the torch has more cells but the run-time is the same, divide the above by the number of cells.

I think most single-celled LED torches will drain the cells at around 1A on max.

Andrew


----------



## SilverFox

Hello 4sevens,

I just found them. They were put away in a place that was not where they were supposed to be. I am planning on testing them in the very near future.

Tom


----------



## guiri

Alright but let's assume the normal person don't know this, what are they supposed to base purchases on? What's written on the battery or just stick with a good brand? It still gets complicated even if one has you guys to ask and CPF to look for answers because some lights have 20-50 hours on the lowest setting and several hours on max setting. I mean, can you not compare batteries BEFORE you RUN them so to speak?

Thanks

George


----------



## cdosrun

George,

I am afraid that I can't understand your frustration with this; most people find the cells that suit them best through trial and error. For some people, where cost is a primary factor, may appreciate cheaper cells and accept the sacrificed runtime whereas others may want runtime at all costs.

What SilverFox has done here, at the great expense of his time, effort and pocket is to provide information on cells so that people can make an informed choice prior to their initial purchase. I have bought both Fuji and Panasonic cells (without referencing this thread) and noticed very little difference between them in practical use, as would be the case for many users.

Otherwise what you are asking is not dissimilar to how a particular brand of fuel will work in a car you haven't decided upon yet. Use the list here to narrow down the better cells if you want maximum runtime and then try them to see what suits you best.

The short answer is that they will all work, the question is which will be 'best' and that depends on your use.

Andrew


----------



## SilverFox

Hello George,

A "normal" person would check out the battery performance data sheet from the manufacturer... and then come to a "wild" place like CPF to ask what it all means...  

Tom


----------



## soffiler

SilverFox said:


> Hello George,
> 
> A "normal" person would check out the battery performance data sheet from the manufacturer... and then come to a "wild" place like CPF to ask what it all means...
> 
> Tom


 
I read George's note and thought immediately... where did this "normal" person come into the picture? No normal people here; this is CPF!! 



When I am asked to recommend a CR123A cell, I normally respond that my own testing has produced two VERY generalized observations:

- all cells labelled "Made in USA" perform very similarly
- the best cells labelled "Made in China" perform to about 85% of the capacity/runtime of a USA cell; the worst are quite bad.


----------



## 4sevens

SilverFox said:


> Hello 4sevens,
> 
> I just found them. They were put away in a place that was not where they were supposed to be. I am planning on testing them in the very near future.
> 
> Tom


Cool thanks! You've got lots of time to test 'em! (2017! )


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I finally got the graphs up of the Panasonic CR123 1550 mAh cells. Wow, it sure took me long enough to get this data up...

At any rate, they are very strong at 0.5 and 1.0 amps, and fall off a little at 2.0 amps. At 0.5 amps then tested out higher than their rated capacity. This is very refreshing in this time when labeled capacity is often optimistic.

These cells are made in the US.

Tom


----------



## seery

Test results for the new BatteryStation 2007+ cells look very impressive across the board.

End run heating (although in line with the SF's and Sanyo's) looks to be the only possible
setback for high drain applications.

Seems the new BatteryStation cells are among the front runners in performance and quite
possibly "the" front runner for "most bang for the buck".


----------



## guiri

soffiler said:


> When I am asked to recommend a CR123A cell, I normally respond that my own testing has produced two VERY generalized observations:
> 
> - all cells labelled "Made in USA" perform very similarly
> - the best cells labelled "Made in China" perform to about 85% of the capacity/runtime of a USA cell; the worst are quite bad.



Thanks, I'm sadly enough not really smart enough to understand most of the stuff posted here. I wish I were.


----------



## Art Vandelay

Many of the US brands are made by the same manufacturer and are virtually identical except for the label and price. That's the rumor I heard.


----------



## seery

Art Vandelay said:


> Many of the US brands are made by the same manufacturer and are virtually identical except for the label and price. That's the rumor I heard.



My understanding is that each company Panosonic OEM's for
has a different and unique "recipe" for their battery chemistry.

No two chemistries being the same as the each is a (for a lack
of better terms) "Trade Secret".


----------



## dbvanhorn

I'm curious how you got the watt-hour numbers on your testing. I just got a CBA-II, and I can only see it in amp-hours.

It's a nice tester for general use, but my specific problem needs constant power loads, graphing in time, and a summary report showing watt-hours delivered.


----------



## soffiler

dbvanhorn said:


> I'm curious how you got the watt-hour numbers on your testing. I just got a CBA-II, and I can only see it in amp-hours.
> 
> It's a nice tester for general use, but my specific problem needs constant power loads, graphing in time, and a summary report showing watt-hours delivered.


 
Here's how I get watt-hours from a CBA-II:

1) Export the data to a CSV file.
2) Pull CSV into Excel 
3) The CBA-II takes data at fixed 1-second intervals (HINT to West Mountain Radio - Please make data interval a variable, and please create a constant-power routine...)
4) You have a column of voltages taken at the 1-second intervals, and you multiply this column by the fixed test amperage to get instantaneous wattage at each 1-second interval
5) Sum all of the wattages over the time period you're interested in to get watt-seconds (this is a piecewise integration) and divide by 3600 to get watt-hours


----------



## dbvanhorn

Ok, thanks! I thought you might have found some secret option menu or something 

I agree on the CP discharge, and it would seem like it would be easy to do. The time scale in amp-hours is a little silly since it's a constant current.


----------



## dbvanhorn

I just finished my own little shootout, using the west mountain CBA-II.

I tested Duracell, Energizer, Maxell, Panasonic, Powerizer, PowPower Titanium, Sanyo, and Tenergy.

I tested at 0.7A, 1.5A, and 2.2A which are ranges that make sense for my project. I set the cutoff at 1.6V, again this makes sense for my project.

At 0.7A, the Duracell, Energizer, and Panasonic cells were clear winners, and their test data at all levels leads me to believe that these are the same cells with a different wrapper.

At 1.5A and 2.2A the CLEAR winner was "Pow-Power" (Surprised the hell out of me too!) I ran three additional tests at 1.5A to see what variability there was between the cells, and they tracked virtually on top of each other.

At 1.5 and 2.2A, all the cells were significantly warm, but I don't have a convenient way to measure temperature, so I won't say anything beyond that they were warmer than I'd want to hold my hand on at 2.2A, but not alarmingly hot.

Maxell and Sanyo always gave dissapointing results, and again they track so closely I suspect the only difference is the label. 

Powerizer and Tenergy were a little less predictable, but not stellar performers.


From my limited testing, I'd say if the load is <1A, then Panasonic, Duracell, or Energizer, get whatever is least expensive. For >1A loads, the PowPower Titanium delivered higher voltage, by about 0.1V on average, and delivered longer run time.

Interesting thing, as the loads got higher, the cells all exhibited an interesting "droop and recovery" of voltage in the first few minutes of the discharge. I hadn't expected that, but I've never done this sort of test with this type of cell before either. I think it may be that the heat buildup during testing was helping the cells deliver more energy, and I'll be doing some testing on that soon.

I'll be doing more testing, and I'll report what I can.


----------



## MattK

When we tested our Titanium CR123A's vs most of the same cells you tested, also using a CBA-II, we obtained similar results. We've also had a few clients do the same and the results have been very consistent; at higher discharge rates our cells will outperform the big name brands mfr'd by Panasonic while the Panasonic made cells will show slightly higher capacity at lower discharge rates.

On a side note we're moving away from the 'Pow Power' moniker - from now on all Titanium products fall under the brand name of Titanium Innovations and product labels are being changed to reflect this as new production is made; the CR123A's will be the first product to have the new design - I thought I'd premier it here first. 

Just to be 100% clear: the battery is the same - this is just a change to the label. The new labels will appear around early-mid September. (Pic is of a handmade proof - not a production cell.)


----------



## dbvanhorn

Nice! Much better artwork, and the name is a little less "schlocky" 

Frankly, I did NOT expect the PowPower cells to perform so well.
I will be recommending that for one type of use, we use one of the big three, and for the other type of use, we use the PowPower cells.

Shoot me a direct email at [email protected], and I'll send you a link, and some deeper info on the project. I can't go into much detail here.


----------



## dbvanhorn

PS: Talking to the Mountain West guy, there is a firmware version in beta that does zero current (external load) and constant power discharge.

Our load will be more or less a constant power load.
Twelve switching power supplies, and a sustained load of over 10W from three cells, down to a few tens of mW in sleep mode, depending on what's being done. 

I am really looking forward to the constant power option.


----------



## MattK

Thanks - it's a great product and it deserved a better package. We're also doing some new pack sizes (more on that later).

The Titanium cells have been pretty extensively vetted by several product manufacturers for inclusion with their devices. For those with high current demands the Titaniums are an easy choice given their lower cost and excellent performance and reputation. We also distribute most of the major brands so I always say I don't care which you buy so long as you buy them from us. 

I'll shoot you an email tomorrow and we'll continue the biz side of the discussion via email.


----------



## soffiler

dbvanhorn said:


> PS: Talking to the Mountain West guy, there is a firmware version in beta that does zero current (external load) and constant power discharge...
> 
> I am really looking forward to the constant power option.


 
That's great news! Please post here (this thread, ideally, since I'm subscribed to it) if you get any more news on this firmware revision.


----------



## Black Rose

MattK said:


> On a side note we're moving away from the 'Pow Power' moniker - from now on all Titanium products fall under the brand name of Titanium Innovations and product labels are being changed to reflect this as new production is made; the CR123A's will be the first product to have the new design - I thought I'd premier it here first.


That's a much nicer looking design.

Reminds me of the Minardi F1 cars when they were sponsored by Orange.


----------



## MattK

Thanks - we worked hard to keep them looking like Titaniums while improving them at the same time. Should be on sale within 7-14 days.


----------



## LED61

MattK said:


> Thanks - we worked hard to keep them looking like Titaniums while improving them at the same time. Should be on sale within 7-14 days.


 
Matt, is there a chance to donate a few to Silverfox for testing at 2.5 amps ? Previous results don't really convince me.


----------



## 4sevens

SilverFox said:


> Update:
> 
> I finally got the graphs up of the Panasonic CR123 1550 mAh cells. Wow, it sure took me long enough to get this data up...
> 
> At any rate, they are very strong at 0.5 and 1.0 amps, and fall off a little at 2.0 amps. At 0.5 amps then tested out higher than their rated capacity. This is very refreshing in this time when labeled capacity is often optimistic.
> 
> These cells are made in the US.
> 
> Tom


Thanks tom for all your hard work! It looks like these panasonics are #1 
at the 1.0 amp rate! We did our own internal testing of quite a variety of 
brands before we chose the panasonics and this just confirms our findings!

These cells are a bit more expensive than others but wanted to carry
the best!  According to the panasonic rep, apparently they OEM for
some of the major brands and understandably so!

We're talking to them now about OEM our own label soon! So if you 
start seeing 4sevens cells - you know what they really are 

Yes these cells are made in my very own state - GEORGIA!


----------



## zipplet

4sevens, branded cells with your own store name would be a great idea to go with lights you sell - especially ones that come with batteries included


----------



## MattK

LED61 said:


> Matt, is there a chance to donate a few to Silverfox for testing at 2.5 amps ? Previous results don't really convince me.



I would happily if he's interested in re-testing but if you look here on CPF those results have been duplicated a number of times by other people here - as well as in our own testing. The results are a factor of the cells lower internal resistance.

If you scroll up this page you'll also see dbvanhorn just had similar results:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2575935&postcount=405


----------



## 4sevens

zipplet said:


> 4sevens, branded cells with your own store name would be a great idea to go with lights you sell - especially ones that come with batteries included


 Believe you me, they are coming


----------



## Art Vandelay

I think Batterystation.com was able to get military contracts for cr123s after they switched to a US manufacturer.


----------



## palaina59

Hi!! New to this forum, but not new to SF's. I was poking around the internet for 123A battery reviews and stumbled into this forum. All I have to say is "Wow!!" :twothumbs Thanks for the testing and info, it definitely pointed me to several battery options.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

palaina59 said:


> Hi!! New to this forum, but not new to SF's. I was poking around the internet for 123A battery reviews and stumbled into this forum. All I have to say is "Wow!!" :twothumbs Thanks for the testing and info, it definitely pointed me to several battery options.



Welcome to CPF. There is so much to see on CPF. Spend some time searching around for info. A lost of first time posters will start asking all kinds of questions when the info is readily available for the searching. Some people use google, cpf only at the top of every CPF page. It often is easier to use than the CPF search. CPF search works better to find posts, and threads by various CPF'ers. 

Bill


----------



## dtsoll

Sorry for the interruption, does batterystation still offer a CPF discount on CR123's? Now back to your regularly scheduled forum. thanks!! Doug


----------



## Black Rose

dtsoll said:


> Sorry for the interruption, does batterystation still offer a CPF discount on CR123's? Now back to your regularly scheduled forum. thanks!! Doug


Yes.

Info is in this thread in the Marketplace.


----------



## dtsoll

Thank You!! Doug


----------



## conor

silverfox how is the shelf life on the newer titanium cells?

All my bs batteries that were just over 2 years old are now all dead.... :mecry:


I'd like to refill my pelican case with some decent cheap batteries, but am wondering how the shelf life is....



Also....do the Panasonic batteries have "expiration dates" on them?


----------



## Black Rose

conor said:


> Also....do the Panasonic batteries have "expiration dates" on them?


Yes they do. See the image in this link for an example.


----------



## conor

thank you. :thumbsup: I just ordered some SF cells thou 12 pack for 21.00 + 8.95 shipping

also 44.00 for 16 cells seems like a lot 2.75 per cell?


----------



## Black Rose

That price includes free shipping and 4 Keep2Go tubes that are valued at $6 each, so it's not bad when you add it all up.


----------



## Art Vandelay

conor said:


> thank you. :thumbsup: I just ordered some SF cells thou 12 pack for 21.00 + 8.95 shipping
> 
> also 44.00 for 16 cells seems like a lot 2.75 per cell?



PM sent


----------



## dabear95

A bit new here so sorry if I missed something that was posted already. How do I determine the amp draw on my nitecore EX10? I want the best 123 primary for that specific application and I want to stock up and start a rotation. I think this is great data but if I have a higher amp draw light my current choice of Panasonic cells might not be the best choice. 


Thanks for your time
Jason


----------



## dabear95

Dupe, please delete


----------



## Black Rose

Some amp draw figures on maximum are in this post.

Panasonic are one of the preferred brands for CR123A primary cells.


----------



## dabear95

Black Rose,

Perfect, thanks a bunch!

Jason


----------



## dbvanhorn

MattK said:


> I would happily if he's interested in re-testing but if you look here on CPF those results have been duplicated a number of times by other people here - as well as in our own testing. The results are a factor of the cells lower internal resistance.
> 
> If you scroll up this page you'll also see dbvanhorn just had similar results:
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2575935&postcount=405




If anyone is interested, I can zip up the results and email the raw data.
You can download the CBA-II software from WMR for free and look at the data.


----------



## MattK

Zip 'em up and email them to me please - I'd like to see what you've got.


----------



## etc

Art Vandelay said:


> I think Batterystation.com was able to get military contracts for cr123s after they switched to a US manufacturer.



Is there an update for the graph reflecting this change in Battery Station 123s? 
I think the original graph charted the non-US made Battery Station, correct me if I am wrong?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Etc,

The test results are listed as BatteryStation 2007 in the tables and graphs.

Tom


----------



## jayflash

dabear95 said:


> A bit new here so sorry if I missed something that was posted already. How do I determine the amp draw on my nitecore EX10? I want the best 123 primary for that specific application and I want to stock up and start a rotation. I think this is great data but if I have a higher amp draw light my current choice of Panasonic cells might not be the best choice.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your time
> Jason



My results using a Fluke 112 indicated 625 mA @ Max for a regular CR123 cell and 460 mA with a 3.7v LiIon cell. Perhaps my light is somewhat more efficient or my meter is being fooled by the pulsed current.


----------



## dbvanhorn

MattK said:


> Zip 'em up and email them to me please - I'd like to see what you've got.


 

How can I email them direct to you?


----------



## MattK

if you click my user name above this post there's a link to get my email address - also, I think you already have my email address from before...is it a huge file?


----------



## dbvanhorn

You should have it now. Not huge.


----------



## MattK

Got em - thanks - look forward to reviewing your data!


----------



## zhou01

dbvanhorn said:


> You should have it now. Not huge.


Can you send me a copy of test data at [email protected]. thanks a lot.


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

Cdosrun sent me some Panasonic 2017 and Fuji 2012 cells a while back. I have been letting them "age" for quite a while now, and he as gently nudged me to get them tested.

Well the testing is done on these cells and the data is graphed and posted in the first post.

The Panasonic cells performed well. The Fuji cells ran hotter and ended up so hot that the test at higher current draws was terminated on heat. 

Both of these cells were purchased in Europe.

Tom


----------



## DHart

conor said:


> silverfox how is the shelf life on the newer titanium cells?
> 
> All my bs batteries that were just over 2 years old are now all dead.... :mecry:



WOW... this concerns me...

I've trying to decide which 123 primaries to invest in for long-term storage / back-up. I use rechargeables for daily use but would like a plentiful pack of lithium primaries in storage for emergency use. Therefore, long shelf life is as important to me as output characteristics.

I understand that shelf life is not tested here and does take time! 

Is there any consensus as to which brand is likely to be trusted with the longest shelf life?

My hunch is to trust Duracell or Energizer for long shelf life, but I have no idea on that. I do have some Surefire 123's that I bought about 6 years ago and they're at about 3.1v today.

So guys, what brand would you pick if you were choosing for LONG shelf life?


----------



## Black Rose

DHart said:


> My hunch is to trust Duracell or Energizer for long shelf life, but I have no idea on that. I do have some Surefire 123's that I bought about 6 years ago and they're at about 3.1v today.
> 
> So guys, what brand would you pick if you were choosing for LONG shelf life?


Panasonic, Rayovac, SureFire, Streamlight, Energizer, Duracell.

I am guessing that the BS cells conor was referring to are the older BS cells that were made in China and were known to have issues. 

The new BS cells are made in the USA, at the same factory that makes the cells listed above.


----------



## DHart

Cool! That's easy.

So Panasonic is the maker of all these brand's 123 cells?

Which of these brands are dated so you know the freshness?


----------



## Niconical

*Dhart*, Batterystation current USA made cells are a different breed from the previous ones and are a CPF favorite, along with Surefire brand and some others. 

You know that pic I sent you? If I had also shown under the tray, you'd have seen boxes with "Batterystation - 50xCR123A" written on them.


----------



## BRO

Which of these brands are dated so you know the freshness? 

I just received a box of 50 Duracell's from Battery Junction that are dated 2018. Don't know if the other batteries are dated.


----------



## DHart

Niconical said:


> *Dhart*, Batterystation current USA made cells are a different breed from the previous ones and are a CPF favorite, along with Surefire brand and some others.
> 
> You know that pic I sent you? If I had also shown under the tray, you'd have seen boxes with "Batterystation - 50xCR123A" written on them.



Nick... cool. So you're a believer in the BS brand. Ah yes, I can also see some of the blue wrapped cells nestled there near all the shimmering white eneloops! 

Should one expect that the BS brand CR123s will have as long a shelf life as the Duracells & Surefires? 

And lastly, do the BS brand cells have a date stamped on them too?


----------



## Black Rose

DHart said:


> So Panasonic is the maker of all these brand's 123 cells?


Any CR123A primary cell that is Made in the USA comes from the Panasonic factory....it is the only CR123A factory in North America



> Which of these brands are dated so you know the freshness?


I know that Surefire, Streamlight, Duracell, and Energizer cells all have some sort of date code on them.

Streamlight uses a 4 digit code that indicates the week and year the cell was manufactured. Add 10 to the year to know when it "expires".

Surefire and Duracell have an expiry date printed on them.

Energizer prints the expiry year in easy view on the top of the label.
They also have the month and year imprinted in the label, so you use the two pieces to determine when to use them by.


----------



## DHart

BR... excellent. Thank you for that great info.

I take it BatteryStation cells aren't date stamped?


----------



## Niconical

DHart said:


> Should one expect that the BS brand CR123s will have as long a shelf life as the Duracells & Surefires?
> 
> And lastly, do the BS brand cells have a date stamped on them too?


 
I can't factually or statistically attest to the shelf life of Batterystation cells, or any other, and nor can anyone else, unless we put aside a handful of cells from different batches from each brand, then wait 2/5/10 years or whatever. 

What I can say about batterystation CR123A is this:

They're made in the same place as all the other USA made cells. 
They're quoted as a 10 year shelf life, same as the others. 
They scored well in the Silverfox tests. 
They're offered at a great price to CPF members, $60 shipped in the USA for a box of 50. 

They do have a date code, for which there is a table to work out the month/year of manufacture.


----------



## DHart

Niconical said:


> I can't factually or statistically attest to the shelf life of Batterystation cells, or any other, and nor can anyone else, unless we put aside a handful of cells from different batches from each brand, then wait 2/5/10 years or whatever.
> 
> What I can say about batterystation CR123A is this:
> 
> They're made in the same place as all the other USA made cells.
> They're quoted as a 10 year shelf life, same as the others.
> They scored well in the Silverfox tests.
> They're offered at a great price to CPF members, $60 shipped in the USA for a box of 50.
> 
> They do have a date code, for which there is a table to work out the month/year of manufacture.



The BS deal is attractive for sure! Do you know were the look up table is to determine the meaning of the date code?


----------



## Niconical

The table is at the end of this page. 

The code stamped on each is 4 characters, 3 for month/year/day, then 'O' at the end for USA manufacture. 

As an example, one from a batch I got last year is APWO, which is....

A: February
P: 2008
W: 23rd
O: Made in USA

The stamp is black, on dark blue, so you do have to angle it to the light to see it.


----------



## DHart

Nick... thank you, again!

Wow... I do wonder why the date stamp was designed to be so cryptic, when it could be so simple & easy to understand.

Any idea what the currently shipped BatteryStation CR123's are dated (or coded) as?


----------



## Bones

DHart said:


> ...
> 
> Wow... I do wonder why the date stamp was designed to be so cryptic, when it could be so simple & easy to understand.
> 
> ....



It actually makes some sense with a cell with very little surface area, especially if you want to include both the day of the month and the country of origin as in this instance.


----------



## Niconical

DHart said:


> Any idea what the currently shipped BatteryStation CR123's are dated (or coded) as?


 
I ordered them 3 or 4 times last year. I don't remember the dates, but I do remember that they were newer codes each time, so there is presumably a fast turnover of stock at batterystation.


----------



## DHart

My questions are simply because I'm a very conscientious shopper... I really like to do a lot of homework before jumping in... even doing so, I still make mistakes on occasion, but fewer than otherwise, perhaps.

I'm inching my way toward a decision on which CR123 primaries to stock up on for the long haul... any additional info from anyone is most welcome and appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## Niconical

When you say 'stock up', do you have an idea of roughly how many?


----------



## DHart

Niconical said:


> When you say 'stock up', do you have an idea of roughly how many?



I don't give much use to 123 primaries (all but two of the lights I use I run with rechargeables), but I'm thinking about stocking up to have an emergency back-up power supply on hand for the possibility of SHTF/BugOut use. Haven't decided on quantity yet... perhaps 20? Not sure. I just want to make the best purchase decision I can make so that if I reach for them in an emergency in three, five, seven years whatever, I don't find a bunch of dead cells sitting in my fridge. I may buy lots of ten or so, once every year or two... not sure of my strategy just yet... first trying to figure out the best possible quality/shelf-life.


----------



## Niconical

In that case I'd suggest a mix. Even if a battery is proved to be the best ever, it's still not ideal to have all of your emergency batteries from the same batch and brand, so I'd suggest 10 batterystation brand and 10 surefires. 

A tip if ordering from batterystation - include some of the 'other' batteries that always get forgotten about. 

They sell them in singles, so I usually add in a 9v or 2, then maybe 1 or 2 each of CR2032, 23A (garage door remote), that sort of thing. They're the type that always run out at the wrong time and if you don't have one you'll end up paying premium prices in a store.


----------



## DHart

Niconical said:


> In that case I'd suggest a mix. Even if a battery is proved to be the best ever, it's still not ideal to have all of your emergency batteries from the same batch and brand, so I'd suggest 10 batterystation brand and 10 surefires.
> 
> A tip if ordering from batterystation - include some of the 'other' batteries that always get forgotten about.
> 
> They sell them in singles, so I usually add in a 9v or 2, then maybe 1 or 2 each of CR2032, 23A (garage door remote), that sort of thing. They're the type that always run out at the wrong time and if you don't have one you'll end up paying premium prices in a store.



Thanks, Nick.... very wise advice to mix brands and lots when long-term emerg use is the plan! :twothumbs I'll probably go with 10 BS, 10 Surefire, 10 Duracell because I do run primaries in my E1B and L1... even though those lights tend to become shelf queens these days since having the D10, LF3XT, and some hot 6P custom set-ups on hand.  

And adding a few of the "other" types of cells that we usually don't think about is an awesome idea as well, because you're right... the odd balls run out when we least expect it and don't have any on hand! Thanks for your thoughts, my friend.


----------



## Edog006

Good call Nick I think you have it 100% down telling DHart to load up on the "normal" batteries, I will do the same. I just started using 18650s instead of the SF 123s on a routine basis but in an emergency over a few days you would definitely want some CR123s on hand. I have been searching for good SF 123s and BS makes some good ones apparently. Thanks for question DHart and the answer Nick


----------



## Illum

Sorry for the  but...
Have you considered embedding 4seven's cells into the comparison graph?


----------



## Black Rose

Cool logo!!!

Energy-dense flashlight food 

I see they are Made In China. Some folks may avoid them because of that, even if they are from 4Sevens.


----------



## 4sevens

I'll be happy to supply as many as you need to test.

We've done our own tests and have been very very satisfied after trying so many sources! This one has PTC protection (which MOST china cells don't have - some even claim to have it but don't!). We wouldn't dare offer anything but the best that we've found!


----------



## selfbuilt

Black Rose said:


> I see they are Made In China. Some folks may avoid them because of that, even if they are from 4Sevens.





4sevens said:


> We've done our own tests and have been very very satisfied after trying so many sources!


+1, would be great to have SilverFox give these a shot in his standardized testing regimen. :thumbsup:

and +2 on a lot of the China cells having poor performance. The current crop of Titantium ones are the only ones I've found that have similar capacities to the top-tier USA brands. Looking forward to seeing how these ones measure up. 



Niconical said:


> I ordered them 3 or 4 times last year. I don't remember the dates, but I do remember that they were newer codes each time, so there is presumably a fast turnover of stock at batterystation.


FYI, I ordered a pack of 10 battery station CR123A last month (May 2009) and got ones with a Dec 2007 manufacture date. :sigh:

Typically, on sites with good turn-over (e.g. battery junction, cfrlights, lightound, etc.), I've found most battery orders produce cells that are 5-10 months old based on manufacture codes. It's rare to get anything beyond 12 months old, so my battery station order might have been an anomaly. :shrug:


----------



## 4sevens

selfbuilt said:


> +1, would be great to have SilverFox give these a shot in his standardized testing regimen. :thumbsup:
> 
> and +2 on a lot of the China cells having poor performance. The current crop of Titantium ones are the only ones I've found that have similar capacities to the top-tier USA brands. Looking forward to seeing how these ones measure up.
> 
> 
> FYI, I ordered a pack of 10 battery station CR123A last month (May 2009) and got ones with a Dec 2007 manufacture date. :sigh:
> 
> Typically, on sites with good turn-over (e.g. battery junction, cfrlights, lightound, etc.), I've found most battery orders produce cells that are 5-10 months old based on manufacture codes. It's rare to get anything beyond 12 months old, so my battery station order might have been an anomaly. :shrug:


I know for a fact that these cells were "made-to-order." I ordered them over a month ago. When I first tested the samples I couldn't believe how well they did. After a series of various kinds of tests, I bit the bullet and ordered nearly 50k of them with our brand name all over it


----------



## jgraham15

4sevens said:


> I'll be happy to supply as many as you need to test.
> 
> We've done our own tests and have been very very satisfied after trying so many sources! This one has PTC protection (which MOST china cells don't have - some even claim to have it but don't!). We wouldn't dare offer anything but the best that we've found!




The price on these seem a bit high to me. Especially being made in china! 

2 pack for $7 = $3.50 each

10 pack for $19 = $1.90 each

50 pack for $79 = $1.58 each

Am I just missing something?


----------



## Black Rose

selfbuilt said:


> FYI, I ordered a pack of 10 battery station CR123A last month (May 2009) and got ones with a Dec 2007 manufacture date. :sigh:
> 
> Typically, on sites with good turn-over (e.g. battery junction, cfrlights, lightound, etc.), I've found most battery orders produce cells that are 5-10 months old based on manufacture codes. It's rare to get anything beyond 12 months old, so my battery station order might have been an anomaly. :shrug:


Same thing happened to me.

I had placed an order in early May and received cells that were manufactured in January 2009.

I placed another order at the end of May and the cells that I received were manufactured in November 2007 :shrug:


----------



## 4sevens

jgraham15 said:


> The price on these seem a bit high to me. Especially being made in china!
> 
> 2 pack for $7 = $3.50 each
> 
> 10 pack for $19 = $1.90 each
> 
> 50 pack for $79 = $1.58 each
> 
> Am I just missing something?


You forget that this includes free shipping (international includes) all local taxes if applicable. And it doesn't include any cpf discounts. That that into consideration, you'll find that these are the best bang per buck for top tier performance. Oh yeah, all quarks come with batteries, so all the 123 Quarks come with these cells


----------



## Black Rose

Never mind...that was an MP question.


----------



## jgraham15

4sevens said:


> You forget that this includes free shipping (international includes) all local taxes if applicable. And it doesn't include any cpf discounts. That that into consideration, you'll find that these are the best bang per buck for top tier performance.



I didn't consider the free shipping and discount. 

Oh and I have nothing against 4Sevens. I have bought 3 flashlights from them in the last 2 months and have 2 more I will be buying from them very soon! It's just that I have been buying Duracell and Energizer CR123's for $1.50 each lately.


----------



## selfbuilt

4sevens said:


> I know for a fact that these cells were "made-to-order." I ordered them over a month ago. When I first tested the samples I couldn't believe how well they did. After a series of various kinds of tests, I bit the bullet and ordered nearly 50k of them with our brand name all over it


I hear ya - there's no reason why China-made batteries can't have similar performance to the USA-made ones. The Titanium cells are a case in point (the last batch I have actually have slightly higher capacities than my newest Duracell/Surefire cells). Looking forward to seeing how these do.

Hmmm, think 50K are enough? This is CPF, after all.  :laughing:


----------



## Toohotruk

It will be interesting to see how they hold up to Tom's intensive, extensive testing. :naughty:


----------



## Illum

Toohotruk said:


> It will be interesting to see how they hold up to Tom's intensive, extensive testing. :naughty:



By the way, I am not under any circumstance to suspect quality issues for products coming from 4sevens. Nor am I challenging his ratings. I just want it to have a permanent residence in the forum where compatible values can be developed and compared to our existing sample pool, plus the convenience of knowing where to find the information when one's best interests desires it.


----------



## Toohotruk

Illum said:


> By the way, I am not under any circumstance to suspect quality issues for products coming from 4sevens. Nor am I challenging his ratings. I just want it to have a permanent residence in the forum where compatible values can be developed and compared to our existing sample pool, plus the convenience of knowing where to find the information when one's best interests desires it.




I feel the exact same way about it...I have nothing but respect for 7777 and trust his judgment. That being said, I am still interested in how these new 123s stack up to other known brands...especially the USA made Battery Station cells.


----------



## StandardBattery

I don't get the excitement for rebranded cells at a premium price even if the calorie count is accurate. A CPF discount sounds interesting, but I'm more interested in evolving the industry with less expensive food with fair and open pricing for all shoppers.

I think someone spiked the KoolAid. Enjoy!


----------



## Illum

StandardBattery said:


> I don't get the excitement for rebranded cells at a premium price even if the calorie count is accurate.



Only on rare occasions do we have new variety of batteries to look forward to, even if they were rebranded....

I had Thompson Cinnamon-raisin bagels every morning for over two years...because that's what we have and you should never argue with mom under any circumstances. To this day I'm still surprised how good the original flavor tasted, hot or cold...but only for that brief week when publix was back ordered on shopping day


----------



## 4sevens

Illum said:


> Only on rare occasions do we have new variety of batteries to look forward to, even if they were rebranded....
> 
> I had Thompson Cinnamon-raisin bagels every morning for over two years...because that's what we have and you should never argue with mom under any circumstances. To this day I'm still surprised how good the original flavor tasted, hot or cold...but only for that brief week when publix was back ordered on shopping day



Technically these are not "re-branded." To be re-branded means they had a brand before or were from a known brand. We found a cell manufacturer looked at their line of products and specified cells according to our requirements, tested the samples until they were satisfactory. We committed to a very large quantity. It's call OEM  These cells did not have a previous brand.


----------



## Kestrel

Illum said:


> I had Thompson Cinnamon-raisin bagels every morning for over two years...because that's what we have and you should never argue with mom under any circumstances. To this day I'm still surprised how good the original flavor tasted, hot or cold...but only for that brief week when publix was back ordered on shopping day


----------



## jlebow44

I have what may well be a dumb question but I'm gonna ask it anyways....if all of the primary 123a's "Made in USA" are all manufactured by Panasonic then why is there any variance in the test performance of any of these homogeneous batteries? Do various batches manufactured by Panasonic perform differently and lesser performing batches are sold off to be sold under a different name? I am quite the newbie here so please forgive my ignorance if I'm missing something obvious.


----------



## MattK

It's not a bad question. There's 2 or maybe 3 variable at work.

First accept these premises: 
Even 'mass manufactured' products made side by side are not exactly the same - they are not perfectly homegenous. 
Batteries, and many other products are made in huge batches and 'sorted' after production to have different marketable levels of product. 
LED's are just like batteries - they don't set out to make lower bin products - they're a result of imperfections in the manufacturing process.


1)Batch variation: All of the tests that have been done on CPF have been of a handful of cells which is statistically insignificant. Panasonic's LD factory makes 108K batteries per shift. Within every batch of batteries there will be a variation in capacitance and internal resistance. This is completely normal; is enedmic to all battery mfring (any almost all other mfring) and so long as the cells are tested in the factory there's an acceptable range of variance (tolerances).

2)Mfr date/age: Tima matters with batteries and is definitely somewhat of a factor. Self explanatory.

3)Batch Sorting: There's a possibility that Panasonic LD is either making, or more likely simply getting as a result of their processes, cells that do not make the cut for their top spec but are within an acceptable margin. Again, this is totally common with battery manufacture; take for example NiMh cells where you have 2700mah, 2500mah etc, the factory actually makes those together, they're the same product, some just come out better and get sold as the higher spec. So, it's quite possible that Panasonic reserves top spec for certain customers or certain customers are paying a premium to get the top spec cells.


----------



## DHart

Wow.. it would seem that with such huge production numbers that actually testing and sorting them all out by test results would be prohibitively costly in terms of time. Can batteries be so quickly and easily tested for mAH?


----------



## jlebow44

Thanks for the thorough answer.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

DHart said:


> Wow.. it would seem that with such huge production numbers that actually testing and sorting them all out by test results would be prohibitively costly in terms of time. Can batteries be so quickly and easily tested for mAH?



They could do some samplings of a batch. Previously Surefire, for example, used Duracell Ultra CR123's and testing has shown them to be of high quality. Duracell no longer manufacturers their own CR123's, and it looks like Surefire is using Panasonic cells. I have often wondered if Surefire was able to have their cells made with their own formula for high current applications, particularly because the M6 requires a 2.5+Amp draw from the cells, and typical CR123's applications have been for cameras and camera flashes in particular. Just thinking out loud here.

Bill


----------



## MattK

DHart said:


> Wow.. it would seem that with such huge production numbers that actually testing and sorting them all out by test results would be prohibitively costly in terms of time. Can batteries be so quickly and easily tested for mAH?



Every battery is tested - it's fully automated.



jlebow44 said:


> Thanks for the thorough answer.


Sure thing.


----------



## MorePower

DHart said:


> Wow.. it would seem that with such huge production numbers that actually testing and sorting them all out by test results would be prohibitively costly in terms of time. Can batteries be so quickly and easily tested for mAH?





MattK said:


> Every battery is tested - it's fully automated.



To clarify MattK's post: Every battery is tested, but not for mAh. Testing primary cells for capacity (mAh) is a strictly one-time thing. If every cell were to be tested, that would mean every cell would be fully discharged.

Every cell is tested for voltage (OCV and / or CCV) and possibly for flash amps. That process is fully automated and quickly weeds out bad cells.

Capacity is tested on cells sampled from production, most likely on a per shift, per day, or several times a week basis.


----------



## DHart

Ah... that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## MattK

IIRC, voltage and impedence are tested on every cell. As pointed out above capacity testing on primary cells is a one time event so it's tested per production batch (3X a day for most factories), not on every cell.


----------



## Englander

DHart said:


> I don't give much use to 123 primaries (all but two of the lights I use I run with rechargeables), but I'm thinking about stocking up to have an emergency back-up power supply on hand for the possibility of SHTF/BugOut use. Haven't decided on quantity yet... perhaps 20? Not sure. I just want to make the best purchase decision I can make so that if I reach for them in an emergency in three, five, seven years whatever, I don't find a bunch of dead cells sitting in my fridge. I may buy lots of ten or so, once every year or two... not sure of my strategy just yet... first trying to figure out the best possible quality/shelf-life.


 
I can comment on the longevity of The Battery Station CR123A's that I have. I bought a batch of about 20 or 30 back in April 2006 when I bought my Surefire U2. I have about 8-10 left. NONE of them work in a capacity that will run my Surefire U2, I actually thought there was something wrong with the torch, ive been travelling for the better part of 2 years, got back and digged it out with the batteries and hit the hills. Torch started acting real strange, going dimmer on _higher_ settings. Tried all the batteries and was convinced the torch was bust.

After posting on here, someone suggested buying new cells from the shop to check, so I splashed out on 2 (about $13.5 for 2, yes UK sucks). Worked normal with the new Energizer ones. So they didn't last much longer than 3 years. One also leaked in a SC1 container I had it in.

The batch was Made in P.R.C (China).

Englander


----------



## DHart

Englander said:


> I can comment on the longevity of The Battery Station CR123A's that I have. I bought a batch of about 20 or 30 back in April 2006 when I bought my Surefire U2. I have about 8-10 left. NONE of them work in a capacity that will run my Surefire U2...
> 
> So they didn't last much longer than 3 years. One also leaked in a SC1 container I had it in.
> 
> The batch was Made in P.R.C (China).
> 
> Englander



Englander.... That's very good information to know. Thanks for sharing that.

I think you probably would've had a different result with a USA-Panasonic made CR123 like Panasonic, Duracell, Surefire, Everready, RayoVac. I believe these truly will last for years if kept stored cool. Perhaps someone whose actually done this with a premium brand can attest to this from first hand experience.


----------



## DHart

... duplicate post in error


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Englander said:


> I can comment on the longevity of The Battery Station CR123A's that I have. I bought a batch of about 20 or 30 back in April 2006 when I bought my Surefire U2. I have about 8-10 left. NONE of them work in a capacity that will run my Surefire U2, I actually thought there was something wrong with the torch, ive been travelling for the better part of 2 years, got back and digged it out with the batteries and hit the hills. Torch started acting real strange, going dimmer on _higher_ settings. Tried all the batteries and was convinced the torch was bust.
> 
> After posting on here, someone suggested buying new cells from the shop to check, so I splashed out on 2 (about $13.5 for 2, yes UK sucks). Worked normal with the new Energizer ones. So they didn't last much longer than 3 years. One also leaked in a SC1 container I had it in.
> 
> The batch was Made in P.R.C (China).
> 
> Englander



I am being redundant when I say this, as it has been repeated hundreds of times on CPF the past few years. Battery Station CR123's are now made in the USA at the same plant that makes Panasonic, SF, Rayovac, Duracell, etc. They are now all blue, without any yellow.

Bill


----------



## Black Rose

DHart said:


> I think you probably would've had a different result with a USA-Panasonic made CR123 like Panasonic, Duracell, Surefire, Everready, RayoVac. I believe these truly will last for years if kept stored cool. Perhaps someone whose actually done this with a premium brand can attest to this from first hand experience.


Battery Station CR123A cells are also made by Panasonic now, as a result of problems with the older cells.

The Battery Station cells that Englander bought are the older (and problematic) Made In China cells.

EDIT: DOH!! Bill already posted the same info


----------



## DHart

Good to know, guys. Even though many here would know this information, many may not or might have forgotten. Thanks.


----------



## Englander

Bullzeyebill said:


> I am being redundant when I say this, as it has been repeated hundreds of times on CPF the past few years. Battery Station CR123's are now made in the USA at the same plant that makes Panasonic, SF, Rayovac, Duracell, etc. They are now all blue, without any yellow.
> 
> Bill


 
Yeah, I noticed that they were now made in USA, one of the reasons I specifically said they were made in China. Yep they are the ones with yellow at the bottom. Provided the information more for people who still own the older variety and just to generally add more knowledge to the system.

In fact, if you guys wanted, I could post the remaining cells I have left to you guys for testing? (Obviously I will need to look into costs before I would commit).

Englander


----------



## yard candle

Please don't make me read all the past posts. Here is my question.
Why do I see some C123a batteries listed as 3.6v and others (the ones I'm seeing here) rated at 3 volts. Are am I starting to hallucinate? Help

Which battery works on the the iTP A1 EOS flashlight?
_sales link removed_


----------



## Mr Happy

yard candle said:


> Please don't make me read all the past posts. Here is my question.
> Why do I see some C123a batteries listed as 3.6v and others (the ones I'm seeing here) rated at 3 volts. Are am I starting to hallucinate? Help


In short, you don't.

Primary (non-rechargeable) lithium CR123A batteries have 3 V written on them. This is a convenient fiction, and when you use them they may very well deliver less than that, maybe 2.5 V.

Secondary (rechargeable) lithium *ion* RCR123 batteries may have 3.6 V written on them. This also is a fiction, but less of one. When you use them they may deliver anything from 4 V down to 3 V, but about 3.6 V on average.

Note the important difference between disposable batteries and rechargeable batteries. Even though they are the same size, their voltage may be different and they may not be compatible.


----------



## yard candle

Matt; Can you suggest which is which. If The "R" in these means that they are all rechargable (secondary)does that mean the regular primary C123A is not compatable.

The ITP A1 Led flashlight specs says I can use;
CR123A, or a RCR123A or even a 16340 cell. 

The flashlight is here;
Sales link removed


----------



## Mr Happy

The CR123A is the regular, disposable, use once kind of battery.

The R-CR123A is a rechargeable battery of the same physical size as a CR123A, but not necessarily a compatible voltage. This cell is sometimes described as a 16340 to emphasize the difference from the non-rechargeable CR123A.

There is no such battery as a C123A. If you see that anywhere it is a mistake.


----------



## yard candle

Thank you Mr Happy. Pardon me if I feel like I've fallen to earth from outer space. I come from a place where designators mean things. LOL 

I now see that the CR123A marked 3.6V or higher are rechargeable.(yes or no?) Yet Matt with says with rare exception some 3.6 or highers are the primary (non-rechargeable). However those marked Li-ion are definitely (secondary) rechargeable..
From all this i must go back up to my spaceship and explain all the confusion down here on earth. What would you have me tell them?
I still see that there are CR123A listed as 3V. I'm betting these 3v wont work in my ITP flash light. To me one seems simply not compatible with the other. 

It also seems to me that when someone gets the urge to call one of the CR123A s a "16430" it must be 3.7 volts exclusively and is rechargeable, right? 

Thank you for taking this problem on for me. 

Regards


----------



## Black Rose

The ITP A1 will work with the 3 volt version, and will likely work better actually.

Using RCR123/16340 cells in a light that small will generate a lot of heat if you use it on high mode a lot due to it's small size, which makes it hard to dissipate heat.

CR123A - 3 volt primary - not rechargeable
RCR123/16340 - 3.7v nominal (empty) - 4.2v (fully charged) rechargeable - not compatible with all CR123A capable devices due to extra voltage.


----------



## Notsure Fire

I didn't know the ITP can handle the 3volt


----------



## vali

If they can't handle them what would be the point of those lights?

A1 -> CR123A
A2 -> AA 
A3 -> AAA

The pill seems to work fine with more voltage like the one you get with li-ion, but the light generates too much heat, so they are not officially supported.


----------



## yard candle

Thank you Mr. Happy, Black Rose and vali. You too Matt.

I'm learning thanks to you and so is Notsure Fire. 

A1 = CR123A (Primary) non-rechargeable 3volt and on rare occasions is a 3.7volt.

A1 also means RCR123A (secondary) rechargeable 3.7 to 4.1volt Li-ion.

A1 also means 16430 (secondary) rechargeable 3.7 full 4.1 volt Li-ion.


All rechargeable batteries designated as above are Li-ion type and require regulated Li-ion chargers matched to specific batteries ampere/hour capacities. 

This is not presented as fact so, guys, jump in here anywhere to correct
Regards 
yard candle. 
PS anything that says C123A is a miss print .


----------



## Mr Happy

OK, let's try to make this clear.



yard candle said:


> A1 = CR123A (Primary) non-rechargeable 3volt


Yes. CR123A means a non-rechargeable lithium primary cell nominally 3 volts. The historical use was for cameras and photography, but the cell got repurposed for flashlight use due to its small size and high power output.



> and on rare occasions is a 3.7volt.


No, the rare occasions are 3.6 V lithium thionyl chloride, but these are very specialized, very expensive, and not found in consumer markets. You will not come across one, and if you do it will not be called a CR123A.



> A1 also means RCR123A (secondary) rechargeable 3.7 to 4.1volt Li-ion.


No. CR123A never means rechargeable unless someone has mislabeled it. CR123A always means single use disposable. If it is rechargeable it should be labeled R-CR123A or R-CR123 or RCR123 or something similar. Note the initial R for rechargeable.



> A1 also means 16430 (secondary) rechargeable 3.7 full 4.1 volt Li-ion.


No again. CR123A always means single use disposable primary lithium cell.

If you see a cell labeled 16340 (not 16430), you can be quite certain it is not a CR123A. In flashlight circles it will always be a lithium ion rechargeable cell with a nominal voltage of 3.0 V or 3.6 V. If you stray into places outside the flashlight world it might be a special kind of primary cell but it will then have a label that makes abundantly clear what it is.



> All rechargeable batteries designated as above are Li-ion type and require regulated Li-ion chargers matched to specific batteries ampere/hour capacities.


...and also matched to the specific type. Otherwise, yes.



> PS anything that says C123A is a miss print .


Yes.

Note that all this confusion only arises because you have strayed into a world of hobbyists with special interests. You will not find anything labeled 16340 in a regular consumer outlet.


----------



## yard candle

Thank you Mr. Happy
Well it looks like if you go poking around in a shoot out you are liable to get shot. Looks like that's just what happened to me here. None the less I hope this help all. I know it has me. 


I like the idea of using the higher voltage li-ions as my first battery because I want to see how much The iTP A1 light is capable of. Even if its but for short runs. The 3 settings will allow me to use the lower setting for longer runs. 
I just don't know how to shop for the proper charger for the R-CR123 or the 16340 combinations. I guess the light will be here and now I'll have to wait on a decent li-ion battery and charger. 
_sales link removed_


----------



## Mr Happy

yard candle said:


> Thank you Mr. Happy
> Well it looks like if you go poking around in a shoot out you are liable to get shot. Looks like that's just what happened to me here. None the less I hope this help all. I know it has me.


Sorry, I'm not trying to shoot you, just to clarify.

In closing, let me quote from the very first post in the thread:


SilverFox said:


> Here is another series of tests, this time looking at Lithium CR123 primary cells. These are not rechargeable.


----------



## yard candle

Who ever heard of anyone getting shot in a shoot out? That was my little play for humor. 
The thread here and you were quite tolerant to allow me to circumvent the main point here too. So thanks for your final clarification.
Regards

PS Mr Happy, might you please translate; 
_"Tiefer, tiefer, irgendwo in der Tiefe gibt es ein Licht_ "


----------



## Mr Happy

yard candle said:


> PS Mr Happy, might you please translate;
> _"Tiefer, tiefer, irgendwo in der Tiefe gibt es ein Licht_ "


Yes, I might. It means something like "Deeper, deeper, somewhere in the depth there is a light". 

You can hear it spoken here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S0zNFzK_ns#t=5m20s


----------



## yard candle

Mr. Happy;
The Deeper and deeper was hard to understand from the song.


----------



## Notsure Fire

Sounds deep


----------



## cohutec

@SilverFox :bow:

I have read several of your battery shoot outs, and I have a specific shoot out that I would like to ask your assistance with, either in guidance so that I may perform the test, or if I may send you many batteries and many thanks if the equipment needed is very expensive.

I need to compare an alkaline AA, lithium AA, and a CR123A at 50mA
The alkaline AA is merely for contrast.

My real world application is an arduino pro mini driving a 30mA LED for 6 hours a day. (research project)

I need this system to operate for 6-8 weeks without a battery change.

I was thinking 2xCR123A's in parallel with a buck/boost converter to get me in the 5V range.
Like the "MintyBoost" :: http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/

Or two lithium AA in series to get the 3V...
or 4 AA in series to get 6V and step down to 5V...
or 4 AA (2 parallel pair in series) to double capacity at 3V?

I'm spinning as battery efficiency is rather new research topic for me.

Thanks in advance to anyone who would like to assist me in finding the best battery combo for my project!


----------



## Mr Happy

cohutec said:


> @SilverFox :bow:
> 
> I have read several of your battery shoot outs, and I have a specific shoot out that I would like to ask your assistance with, either in guidance so that I may perform the test, or if I may send you many batteries and many thanks if the equipment needed is very expensive.
> 
> I need to compare an alkaline AA, lithium AA, and a CR123A at 50mA
> The alkaline AA is merely for contrast.
> 
> My real world application is an arduino pro mini driving a 30mA LED for 6 hours a day. (research project)
> 
> I need this system to operate for 6-8 weeks without a battery change.
> 
> I was thinking 2xCR123A's in parallel with a buck/boost converter to get me in the 5V range.
> Like the "MintyBoost" :: http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/
> 
> Or two lithium AA in series to get the 3V...
> or 4 AA in series to get 6V and step down to 5V...
> or 4 AA (2 parallel pair in series) to double capacity at 3V?
> 
> I'm spinning as battery efficiency is rather new research topic for me.
> 
> Thanks in advance to anyone who would like to assist me in finding the best battery combo for my project!



This question is unique enough that I'm going to suggest you could have started a new thread with it under its own subject heading. Maybe a moderator will move it for you...

Anyway the starting point to answering your question is to look at battery data sheets. For example, to provide 30 mA for 6 hours a day for 8 weeks adds up to 30 mA x 6 (h/day) x 7 (day/week) x 8 (weeks) = 10,000 mAh. Now an Energizer L91 data sheet is here: http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf

From looking at the milliamp-hours capacity chart in the data sheet, we see that an L91 contains about 3000 mAh. That means that to run your light, you will likely need four cells in parallel to get the mAh above 10,000 (4 x 3000 = 12,000), and then enough of those in series to get the voltage high enough. So you will likely need 12 cells in a four parallel, three series arrangement to do what you need. This is simplifying a lot of detail, but we only need a back of the envelope calculation to get a rough idea of the requirements.

You can use a similar estimation technique using the data sheet for a CR123A cell. Most likely you would need a few of those as well to get your 6-8 week run time.


----------



## ToddI

SilverFox said:


> Hello Steve,
> 
> They are also cropping up in home defibrilator units.
> 
> Tom



I know this post is years old, but I am amazed at the wealth of good data and information you have provided in this and other posts I have seen. I'm currently looking at an application where I have a high-power (30W) processor that needs to survive in harsh (desert) environments and run on either CR123 or AA batteries. I think lithium is preferred for its ability to maintain a high voltage over the course of its life, and its long-life characteristics. In this shootout I see that the CR123 heats up significantly at a 1A drain. Is the same true for AA batteries? It basically boils down to me using 10 CR123 batteries at 1A drain, or 16 AA batteries at 1.5A drain - the latter eating up more space and weighing more, which is a big concern for our troops - but thermal is obviously a concern.

Do you have a recommendation? (I haven't come across a AA lithium battery shootout from you, but would look forward to seeing one!) 

Thanks,
Todd


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Todd,

Welcome to CPF.

Quality CR123 cells will handle a 1 amp drain without problems. If you stay away from any "off brands" or working with the cheapest priced cell you should have good results.

Also keep in mind that these tests were done at a continuous drain. Many applications involve multiple shorter duration runs. If the cell has a break during the discharge, the temperature drops.

In general, a CR123 cell is designed to properly operate at current rates up to those that drain the cell in 1 hour. This would work out to 1.4 - 1.5 amps. Since your load is 1.0 amps you should be good to go. Some applications drain the cell in 10 minutes. That is where you run into excessive heat and other problems.

Tom


----------



## 4sevens

silverfox - what happened to the 4sevens graphs?


----------



## Glock 22

I've been using Surefire CR123a's in my M31 set up. I've only tried some of the LifePO4's in it besides my Surefire ones. Which CR123a would give me the most output and longer burntime. I know it's probably a dumb question to ask but I'm not an expert when it comes to batteries. So this thread looks like I can get the best answer. Awesome graphs!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello David,

I don't believe I did any testing with 4sevens cells...

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Glock22,

The SureFire cells are very good. There may be some variation from batch to batch, but I don't think you would see much of a difference by changing brands.

Tom


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## rookiedaddy

4sevens said:


> silverfox - what happened to the 4sevens graphs?





SilverFox said:


> Hello David,
> I don't believe I did any testing with 4sevens cells...
> Tom



I think David was looking for selfbuilt's thread >>> CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Duracell


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## 4sevens

^ thanks rookiedaddy!

Silverfox - if you ever want to review ours just let me know and I'll set you up


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## Glock 22

:thanks: Surefire is what I'll be sticking with.




SilverFox said:


> Hello Glock22,
> 
> The SureFire cells are very good. There may be some variation from batch to batch, but I don't think you would see much of a difference by changing brands.
> 
> Tom


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## jayflash

Light Junction is selling two types of "Stellar" CR123 cells, and one has a jacket which looks similar to Titanium cells. Any clue about these. This thread was the only hit when searching. Should I start a new topic?


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## SilverFox

Hello Jayflash,

A new thread would probably be the way to go.

Tom


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## HighlanderNorth

SilverFox said:


> Hello Jayflash,
> 
> A new thread would probably be the way to go.
> 
> Tom




In that 2004 test, the Titanium Innovations CR123's didnt seem to fare well in most tests. But this is the 1st time I've come across this thread, but I've read other CR123 test threads that seem to say that the Titanium CR123's are at least in with the 2nd tier of batteries with Ray-o-Vac, Energizer, etc., but that some batches actually test as well or better than the top tier batteries. So from what I read, the titanium CR123's now come out anywhere between the top 2 tiers of batteries consistently. 

I've been using them more than any other brand for about 10 months now, and they seem to last as long as any other brand, and I've had no issues whatsoever, and I've bought like 4 different batches of them.

Is it possible that back in 2004 they were sub-par, but now they are consistently good?


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## SilverFox

Hello HighlanderNorth,

The formulations of batteries changes from time to time so that is a possibility. It may be time to do some additional testing to see how the current generation of cells performs. I am tied up right now, but will put it on the "wish" list.

Tom


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## RobbW

Thanks for all your work and sharing your expertise. There is nothing like real-world data to dispense marketing puffery. I appreciate review here and the alkaline battery review. You're not only helping us get the most for our money, you're helping us "vote" with our dollars to support those brands that are giving us the best performing batteries.


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## xwing

Hi, I have a question with regards to the amp drawn. I just bought myself a surefire fury and it say that with the sure fire batteries, it should last 1.5 hrs. 
Would it be correct for me to assume that the amp draw is about 1a since the sure fire is about 1400mah?

So I should be using the chart on 1a when choosing the "longest lasting batteries?


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## Lurveleven

xwing said:


> Hi, I have a question with regards to the amp drawn. I just bought myself a surefire fury and it say that with the sure fire batteries, it should last 1.5 hrs.
> Would it be correct for me to assume that the amp draw is about 1a since the sure fire is about 1400mah?
> 
> So I should be using the chart on 1a when choosing the "longest lasting batteries?



The output is not 100% to 1.5 hrs, see runtime chart from this review, so I think it uses more than 1 A. The best thing is to measure the current your light is drawing using a multimeter.


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## recDNA

What is the maximum recommended sustained current for a Surefire CR123A? If you can please tell me a number rather than a multiple of C. Thanks.


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## SilverFox

Hello recDNA,

2000 mA.

Tom


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## recDNA

Thanks Tom. I always thought it was about 1 amp max sustained current. No idea where I got that figure. That means a primary can actually sustain a higher current than an RCR123 protected li ion. I know those are 1.5 amp max sustained current.


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## hiuintahs

I noticed that Battery Junction is using one of SilverFox's graphs promoting their Titanium Innovation CR123A battery. I was a little taken back with its performance at the top of the pack for a 2 amp discharge rate. Is this chart somewhere in this thread?
I know that the Titanium Innovation has been one of the top performing Chinese made batteries and when considering the price, it looks like a good value.

But is Battery Junction embellishing the facts a little (trying to sell a product) when the 0.5A and 1.0A discharge rates put the Titanium Innovation at the middle to lower of the pack (as noted in the tables in post #1)? Personally I would be using a CR123A at a discharge rate of 1.0A or lower. Just some thoughts.


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## SilverFox

Hello Hiuintahs,

That graph is not in this thread but it is one of my graphs. It has been touched up a little but the data is correct.

Keep in mind that my testing was done in 2006 - 2007 so I don't know how the current batch of cells is in comparison.

The Titanium cells held voltage as well as all the others at the lower test currents but they didn't have the capacity of some of the other brands. At the time the value compared price versus capacity and the Titanium cells were very competitive.

Tom


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