# Bent rear derailleur hanger Airborne titanium frame



## jtr1962 (Apr 14, 2012)

Last August I purchased an Airborne Titanium bike on eBay. The bike has been perfect until today, with only a few minor issues which were easily corrected. Today about 2 miles into a ride I suddenly felt the pedals stop and a great deal of resistance in the rear wheel bought me to a stop. Fortunately I was slowed by traffic just starting out as the light changed, so I was only going about 10 mph when this happened. Right after this occurred, I noticed one of the derailleur pulleys on the road. The rear derailleur somehow got caught up on the rear cluster. I really have no idea how this occurred. I've been riding for over 3 decades and never had something like this happen.

The bad news is the rear derailleur looks pretty damaged. The worse news is the derailleur hanger is bent out of alignment. If I had to guess how much, I'd say between 5 and 10 degrees. I tried bending it back with a small adjustable wrench but this didn't work much, if at all. I've read conflicting accounts on bending titanium hangers. Some people say you can do it, others say you risk cracking the frame. I'm reluctant to use more leverage. Would hammering it back into alignment be a better course of action? Note that this hanger is 1/4" thick. It's beyond me how it could have bent in the first place. The forces involved just didn't seem that great. The rear wheel was only out of true maybe 4 or 5 mm after the incident.

Any advice on how to proceed would be appreciated. And does anyone know an inexpensive source for Dura Ace 7800 rear derailleur parts? Specifically, it looks like I'll need to replace B-tension adjustment screw, one of the pulley bolts, and the inner plate. One of the pulleys looks a little chewed up but I could probably grind the burrs off so it's useable.


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## PapaLumen (Apr 14, 2012)

I just had this happen on my Giant Reign 2 mountain bike. Derailleur busted, hanger bent. Most hangers are made of a softer material so they bend before your frame does.

I wouldnt try to bend it still attached or you risk bending your frame. You need a new hanger (assuming it is removable?) for YOUR FRAME. Local bike shop should be able to help if you take the old one in. Not sure on repairing the derailleur, I just bought a new one (sram x7).

Hanger should only be like $10 or so. Have a look here if you like - http://derailleurhanger.com/airborne.htm not sure which model Airbourne you have?

Is it a 10 speed rear? A few on the bay... http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dura+ace+7800+rear+derailleur

Derailleurs usualy come in short, med or long. Make sure you get the right one. If you have triple chainrings up front and 10speed at the back you will almost certainly want the long version.. Good luck, its a pita. Mine happened because a stick flicked up into my chain and mullered everything.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 14, 2012)

PapaLumen said:


> You need a new hanger (assuming it is removable?) for YOUR FRAME. Local bike shop should be able to help if you take the old one in. Not sure on repairing the derailleur, I just bought a new one (sram x7).


The hanger isn't removable, the theory being that it's so thick it really shouldn't bend. Unfortunately, that theory was just proven wrong.

BTW, the bike is an Airborne Torch. The material is 6/4 titanium.



> Is it a 10 speed rear? A few on the bay... http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dura+ace+7800+rear+derailleur
> 
> Derailleurs usualy come in short, med or long. Make sure you get the right one. If you have triple chainrings up front and 10speed at the back you will almost certainly want the long version.. Good luck, its a pita. Mine happened because a stick flicked up into my chain and mullered everything.


Yep, 10 speed rear. Dual chainrings (39/53) in front, 12-23 in back.

I wish I could figure out what caused this. There were no sticks or other debris in the area. I didn't do anything different as far as shifting goes. One minute, everything is fine, next minute, there's pieces of bike on the road. The only good thing I suppose is it didn't happen at speed or the rear wheel almost certainly would have been history.


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## LitFuse (Apr 14, 2012)

Take the bike to a qualified bike shop. They should have a tool to align the hanger so that it is parallel and plumb to the face of the frame's bottom bracket. I did this procedure dozens of times when I worked in a bike shop, though never with a Ti hanger. Most high end frames typically have a removable hanger.


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## PapaLumen (Apr 15, 2012)

Not removable, ouch. Ah, a road bike.. like this? - http://www.tirides.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/airborne-torch-hanger.jpg 
damn looks pretty sturdy, i can see how you're surprised it bent. Maybe the top pulley wheel got too close to the cassette somehow.. is the cassette ok, no bent teeth?

Looks like a tough job to straighten for someone who knows how. Good luck, sorry I cant be of assistance.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 15, 2012)

Yeah, that's what it looks like. No bent teeth on the cassette. I was hoping someone had a safe method to bend it back using tools I might have handy. Going to a bike shop to fix this is out of the question. For starters, I'm not sure if I'd trust them. And for what it would cost, I could buy the tool and attempt the repair myself.

On another note, I'm wondering now if it's actually bent, or if this is just how it was made. If you look at that picture you linked to, the hanger actually looks bent relative to the dropout. Unfortunately, I never took any pictures of that part of the bike before this happened. I suppose I could put a replacement derailleur on and see if it shifts OK.


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## LitFuse (Apr 15, 2012)

Here's the tool:

Park Tool Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge - DAG-2

If you do a lot of your own repairs it may be worth owning. It's unfortunate that you don't have a shop that you trust. For avid bikers, having a relationship with a local shop can be very beneficial. In the shop I worked in "regulars" routinely enjoyed discounts that were not offered to the general public.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 15, 2012)

I've learned to do 100% of my own bike repairs for financial reasons, so I've never really established any kind of relationship with the local bike shops. The one shop I did trust went out of business years ago when the owner passed away.

What concerns me more at this point than the cost of the repair is why this happened in the first place. Is the particular rear derailleur I had prone to this sort of problem? What would I need to do to keep this from ever happening again? If this had been some sort of freak thing, like a stick getting caught, then I wouldn't be so concerned. It just seems to have happened for no good reason I can ascertain. Since it seems the replacement parts I need to fix my derailleur aren't readily available I'm probably going to go with the Shimano 105. I just can't afford a replacement Dura Ace 7800 and the derailleur tool right now. In fact, I'm kind of annoyed I need to spend anything on repairs so soon given that the bike cost me $1325 and I've only put 687 miles on it.


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## will (Apr 15, 2012)

Do you have another bike available? If you do, check the relationship of the hangar to the frame. I might be wrong, but I think that the hanger should be parallel to the wheel. The hanger will not be 'straight' with the frame. After all is said and done, the problem might just be a broken rear derailleur.

If you do have to bend, put the frame in a vice as close to the hanger as possible.

I took a look at my bike here in NY. It is not Titanium and the hanger is a separate aluminum piece attached to the frame. It does not line up with the frame and it appears bent when looking at it and the frame at the same time. It does look to be parallel to the wheel. That makes sense to me. The hanger should be parallel to the wheel and the cassette.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 15, 2012)

will said:


> Do you have another bike available? If you do, check the relationship of the hangar to the frame. I might be wrong, but I think that the hangar should be parallel to the wheel. The hangar will not be 'straight' with the frame. After all is said and done, the problem might just be a broken rear derailleur.


 The rear derailleur is definitely bent beyond repair. Just eyeballing it, even if the hanger were aligned properly, the cage looks way off. Another thing I just noticed is scuffing on the derailleur bolt area. I didn't cause this because I've never fallen riding this bike. Apparently the bike did fall at least once on the derailleur side prior to when I bought it.

I also tried a spare derailleur just to check the alignment. The hanger is definitely about five degrees out of alignment in both planes. Not severely, but enough to be noticeable. I suspect this happened before I bought the bike, but I never noticed. A fall on the derailleur side easily could have caused this. It didn't affect shifting much, although I did have minor problems occasionally upshifting. Bottom line-the hanger may have been out of alignment _before_ this happened, and this in turn may have caused the problem in the first place. The way the hanger is bent, the bottom of the derailleur cage may have bounced enough during a downshift to catch the spokes. It looks like I'll need to align the hanger then, and also purchase a rear derailleur (the spare I just tried is 1980s vintage and not really functional).

It looks to be worthwhile getting the alignment tool, so I'm ordering that today. The hanger on my Raleigh has been out of alignment from the time I owned the bike but not enough to severely affect the shifting. I can fix both bikes now.

If anyone sees a good deal on a short cage rear derailleur (105, Ultegra, or Dura-Ace are all OK), please let me know.

Thanks everyone for the help!


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## Steve K (Apr 15, 2012)

jtr1962 said:


> ....
> What concerns me more at this point than the cost of the repair is why this happened in the first place. .....



My only experience of this type was caused by the chain failing. A side plate came loose and caught in the derailleur cage. The derailleur was drug around the cassette as I continued to pedal, and eventually was driven into the spokes, bending the derailleur hanger. Not a pretty sight! The fact that the chain was still jammed in the derailleur was a pretty good clue as to the cause. I could imagine that a less severe chain failure might have caused your problem, but there should have been some sign. Maybe some debris got caught up in the chain and jammed up the pulleys? I've seen a friend get a stick flipped up by the front wheel that then jammed in the rear wheel and tore out the derailleur. 

I ended up buying the Park derailleur alignment gauge, figuring it was no more expensive than taking the bike to a shop. For indexed shifting, you really benefit from having an accurately aligned derailleur hangar. My only concern is with the titanium. Ti is pretty tough and springy stuff usually. The Park tool provides a lot of leverage that might be needed to spring the hangar far enough to take a set. It might not hurt to check with Airborne (now renamed to Van Nicholas) and see what they suggest.

Steve K.


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## offroadcmpr (Apr 15, 2012)

I saw something similar happen to a buddy's bike a few weeks ago. A stick pushed the rear derailer into the spokes which then completely bent everything and broke a couple of spokes. Usually the hanger is removable and softer on purpose. I guess the idea is that it is cheaper to replace a $10 dollar hanger than a $100+ derailer. I am guessing it is not a big enough problem for road bikes so they don't have a removable hanger.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 16, 2012)

Steve K said:


> It might not hurt to check with Airborne (now renamed to Van Nicholas) and see what they suggest.


I contacted Airborne support yesterday. Here is what I wrote:

_I bought an Airborne Torch last August secondhand. I recently noticed that the rear derailleur hanger is a few degrees out of alignment. I'm not sure why. I've never crashed this bike, but the prior owner may have. I'm thinking of realigning it with a Park Derailleur Alignment Gauge (DAG-2 ). Would you recommend against doing this? If so, why? If the repair can be done, would there be any specific procedure you recommend following? Note that we're talking about a pretty small misalignment here, probably less than 5 degrees. Any help would be greatly appreciated._

Here was their one sentence response:

_ I'd take it to a pro shop and have them do it._

Reading between the lines, this is telling me it's possible to bend it back using the DAG-2 tool since this is what any pro shop would be using.



> My only concern is with the titanium. Ti is pretty tough and springy stuff usually. The Park tool provides a lot of leverage that might be needed to spring the hangar far enough to take a set.


It's my understanding that the dropouts on a titanium bike are pure titanium to facilitate bending things back into alignment. Pure titanium has good "cold formability", which basically means it can be bent without cracking. Since pure titanium has about 1/4 the yield strength of 6-4 titanium, the dropouts are made much thicker to compensate.

Any thoughts on all this? Buy the tool and go the DIY route, or just buy a derailleur and leave the hanger alone (it looks like it'll shift tolerably well given that it's only a few degrees out of alignment)? Forget the bike shop doing the repair. The nearest pro shop is over 5 miles away. I'm not walking a broken bike that distance, walking back, waiting perhaps a week until they tell me it's ready (the shops here are all too busy to do repairs while you wait), then walking the bike home. That's 20+ miles, about 5 hours, of walking, half of them with a bike in tow. Bikes aren't allowed on buses here (and there's no direct route to the bike shop by bus anyway).


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## PapaLumen (Apr 16, 2012)

As you are not prepared to take it to a shop (understandable considering what you have said), I would get a new derailleur and see how it is and keep a close eye on everything.

Shame about the limited response from Airborne, they obviously assume everyone can easily get their bike to a shop. If the new derailleur doesnt go well then I would still go the shop route no matter the inconvenience as it's a job they probably have some experience with and may not charge a lot to do it. It does sound from what you are saying that the hanger despite being non-removable is made of softer stuff to facilitate bending/straightening, this makes sense.

I do prefer to do most jobs myself but this is one I wouldn't personally tackle. Up to you.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 17, 2012)

I managed to successfully bend the hanger back. I got the brainstorm today that the rear axle bolt might be the same size as the derailleur bolt. Turns out it is. I took an old rear wheel, screwed one side down tight into the hanger, and then proceeded to bend the hanger back. It required surprisingly little force. First I did it by eye, seeing if the axle of the spare wheel and the axle of the bike's rear wheel were aligned in both planes. After that, I held an adjustable wrench right up against the braking surface of the rear wheel and rotated the spare wheel to see if it remained in contact with the braking surface as I rotated the spare wheel. I needed to make a few minor adjustments. This probably isn't as good as I might have gotten it with the derailleur alignment tool, but it looks to be no more than maybe 1/8" deviation. That translates to alignment to within 1/2 degree-probably plenty good enough for things to work well. Bottom line spare rear wheel=poor man's derailleur alignment gauge!

I'll know for sure if I did it right once I install a new derailleur. I'm still looking on eBay.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 17, 2012)

Sorry-double post.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Apr 17, 2012)

did this to my all 6.4 Litespeed Tellico whilst eating a big stick with my rear wheel.
no one knows why the dropout bent, the derailleur should have self-destructed around it.
2 people reefing on an R tool could not get it to bend back. 6.4 ti tube bike with 6.4 dropouts.
needed a new dropout welded in by Litespeed. 400 bux and 2 months later I got that bike back.



even though you bent it back yourself, _*it is critical !!!!*_ to have it checked with an R tool. it has to
be exact or say goodbye to easy riding and staying in gear. that chain will jump all over the place
if that dropout is 1 RCH off in any direction


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## jtr1962 (Apr 17, 2012)

I'm 100% sure the dropouts on my bike were are titanium. I agree if they were 6-4 there's no way I could have bent it back. 6-4 is stronger than most steels.

My game plan going into this was to forget it if the hanger didn't move fairly easily, the theory being if I apply too much force I risk cracking the hanger off. I'm glad my dropouts weren't 6-4 or I likely would have been in the same position as you. Now at least I know why the hanger bent in the first place-it is fairly soft. I'm totally puzzled how your 6-4 hanger could have bent. I would think the derailleur bolt would snap long before a 6-4 hanger starts bending.

I obviously won't know if the alignment is off until I get a derailleur. What I plan to do it install the derailleur and see how it shifts. If all is well, no problem. If not, at least with the derailleur installed I could carefully ride it to a bike shop to have the alignment adjusted instead of walking it there. For what it's worth, even though I have no pictures proving it, I think the hanger was somewhat misaligned when I got the bike. The indexing on the bike worked fine pedaling forwards but pedaling backwards sometimes jumped gears. This doesn't happen on a bike where the alignment is perfect. Also, the force required turn the pedals by hand backwards seemed excessive.


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## BVH (Apr 18, 2012)

Be sure to check the max derailleur travel adjustments especially towards the spokes. Maybe the stop adjustment was too far out and allowed the derailleur to run into the spokes which, in turn, bent the dropout?


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## jtr1962 (Apr 18, 2012)

I'll definitely be checking derailleur travel even though I think the more likely cause of this mishap was either a loose or broken derailleur pulley shaft. I'll need to make sure I regularly check the pulley shafts henceforth. I recall shortly after I starting using the bike that one of the pulley shafts was very loose. Fortunately I noticed it while truing the rear wheel. Maybe it worked itself loose again?


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## orbital (Apr 18, 2012)

+

Remember, your bike is only as good as its components.
You don't need top of the line, but garage sale/eBay stuff may be false economy in the end.


>>>>>I was not going to mention this, because it was far to ironic.

Two days before this thread, I was at a friends bike shop to say hi, I was looking at his steel framed bikes, then a Ti setup caught my eye.
We were chatting about the beautiful welds, then I told him the only reason I never considered a Ti frame is that they never have replaceable hangers,
"you never know what freakish thing can happen."

Two days later, this thread appeared......oo:


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## 127.0.0.1 (Apr 18, 2012)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> Remember, your bike is only as good as its components.
> You don't need top of the line, but garage sale/eBay stuff may be false economy in the end.
> ...



my model Litespeed is no longer produced the same way. Mine is a 1999, and spot on, and I should
be able to ride it 20 more years with no frame issues, just replacing components. But new ones have replaceable der hangers.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 18, 2012)

My bike looks like it's from 2003. That's the only year Airborne made the Torch. When I was looking at Ti bikes last year, all the newer ones, such as this one, do in fact have replaceable hangers.


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## TranquillityBase (Apr 18, 2012)

DIY alignment tool will suffice. You need high leverage for good 'feel', and easy bending/tweeking...If it's going to crack, it will crack. You're dead-in-the-water at this point anyway. Feel free to send me a PM (I have a friend that is Litespeed authorized for frame repair)...I'm sure he will lend some good advise.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 30, 2012)

Rear derailleur arrived today. It was a used Ultegra with only 200 miles on it. I installed it, adjusted the cable tension, removed two links from the chain, and all is well. This derailleur didn't seem to take up as much chain as the other one, which is why I needed to remove two links. However, I suspect the chain was too long even with the other derailleur. This may have caused the problem in the first place. Previously, the chain had come off twice while riding over bumpy streets.

I'll take it out later for a spin but so far it seems to shift flawlessly, even better than before. The chain doesn't jump gears when backpedaling as it did before either. I'll cautiously say my ad-hoc derailleur alignment "tool" worked.


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## will (Apr 30, 2012)

Good Luck
quick question - do you re-use the chain pin? I did some reading and it was suggested that the pin that was removed, not be used again. There are replacement pins for the different sized chains.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 30, 2012)

will said:


> Good Luck
> quick question - do you re-use the chain pin? I did some reading and it was suggested that the pin that was removed, not be used again. There are replacement pins for the different sized chains.


Yes, I reused it. I've been doing that for years with no problems. If the chain breaks, I could always buy a replacement pin.


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## will (Apr 30, 2012)

I re-use the same pin also. The only problem I have had over the years is that once in awhile the link is stiff and I have to reposition the pin a bit.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 30, 2012)

will said:


> I re-use the same pin also. The only problem I have had over the years is that once in awhile the link is stiff and I have to reposition the pin a bit.


My chain tool can loosen tight links.

The bike seems OK. I did 20 miles and the shifting seemed fine. I missed a few downshifts, but I suspect it might be more because the cable is slightly frayed.


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## will (May 1, 2012)

One thing that I have found with the various parts on my bikes is to keep them well lubed. The real derailleur seems to be the one part that is affected most by being a bit stiff. Lube the pins that allow the part to move up and down the cassette. I do this before I put the cable on, moving it up and down by hand. You can sometimes feel the improvement as the oil works it's way into the pins. I also lube the various cables before I put them in the cable housings. I suspect that you are aware of all of this. 

My chain tool just removes and installs the pins. What kind of tool are you using?


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## jtr1962 (May 1, 2012)

Yes, I actually did lube the derailleur and cables with teflon dry lube. My chain tool looks exactly like the first picture in this article. I generally don't remove the pin completely. When I rejoin the chain, I'll use the lower position to push the pin slightly past where it's supposed to be. Generally, the link will be a little tight after I do that. I then use the upper position to push the pin the other way slightly, loosening the tight link in the process.


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## Steve K (May 2, 2012)

jtr1962 said:


> .... I generally don't remove the pin completely. When I rejoin the chain, I'll use the lower position to push the pin slightly past where it's supposed to be. Generally, the link will be a little tight after I do that. I then use the upper position to push the pin the other way slightly, loosening the tight link in the process.



Is this an approved method for your chain? This was the standard procedure for chains back in the days of 5, 6 or 7 speed chains (when they were just a 3/32" wide chain, and eventually SunTour narrowed things up a bit with their "Ultra" spacing to fit 6 cogs onto a 120mm wide hub). I know that Shimano switched to replaceable pins that were intended to avoid damaging the side plates, and SRAM uses a master link that is easy to remove by hand. 

If the chain isn't built to have the pins re-used, then I'd recommend switching to something like the SRAM with a master link. Re-using pins on most modern chains risks damage to the side link, which means it can pull off of the pin and jam up in the derailleurs. I had this happen on a new bike and it pulled the rear derailleur into the spokes. It's a bad bet to risk a derailleur and possible spoke and frame damage in order to avoid the cost of a master link or replacement pin.

regards,
Steve K.


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## will (May 2, 2012)

The 'approved' method is to use a new pin. Shimano has replacement pins for each of the different size chains they make. The replacement pins have guide portion that you break off after the new pin is inserted. The reason that they don't want you to use the old pin is that old pin has part of the end sheared off when it it removed. If you think of the pin looking like a dumbbell, one side will be smaller after it is pushed through. If you push this pin through again, starting with the large side first, you can shear that off as well.

The newer Shimano chains have an inside and outside. They still use the replacement pin.


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## jtr1962 (May 2, 2012)

I'm aware that 9 and 10-speed, as well as some 8-speed, chains suggest using a replacement pin. In the future I'll do that. For the time being, the chain seems fine. I put 41 miles on the bike so far. I tried to find where I rejoined the chain, but couldn't. I'll examine the chain carefully after every ride for a while just to see if anything looks out of order. For what it's worth, I used my chain tool on the 10-speed chain on my Raleigh when I installed it 5650 miles ago, and all has been well ever since.

BTW, the chain on the Airborne does in fact have a master link which I would use to remove the chain for cleaning, etc. As such, I'm not seeing any need to use the chain tool ever again on this chain.

I'm not 100% sure what kind of chain the bike has but it looks very similar to this.


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## will (May 2, 2012)

jtr1962 said:


> I tried to find where I rejoined the chain, but couldn't. .



I cleaned the link to remove the oil on the outside of the link. Then I colored it with a sharpie, not sure how long that will last, but I can still see the marking.


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## will (Dec 24, 2012)

I have an old bike here in Florida. I sent the frame and fork up to NY while I was in NY to repaint it and remove the rust. I used Duplicolor Mirage paint. Purple and Green, It shifts color as the viewing angle changes. Sent it back to Florida and put it back together. I had trouble shifting and found the rear derailleur hangar was slightly bent. I took a look at the Park tool, around $60 - $70 and decided that for the one time it was not worth buying the tool. I figured I could put something together my self, not as good as the Park tool, but good enough. The most difficult part - finding the M10 - 1 bolt to screw into the hangar. That is a metric extra fine thread. I was able to locate them and some M10-1 nuts on ebay. The arm is a 1 inch aluminum angle from Lowe's. I use a small clamp and a pencil for the 'indicator' After around $10 the tool, which is not real elegant, worked fine. I can't bend the hangar using my tool. and I can't slide the indicator on the aluminum angle, but it got me a lot closer to an exact alignment.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 24, 2012)

will said:


> I have an old bike here in Florida. I sent the frame and fork up to NY while I was in NY to repaint it and remove the rust. I used Duplicolor Mirage paint. Purple and Green, It shifts color as the viewing angle changes. Sent it back to Florida and put it back together. I had trouble shifting and found the rear derailleur hangar was slightly bent. I took a look at the Park tool, around $60 - $70 and decided that for the one time it was not worth buying the tool. I figured I could put something together my self, not as good as the Park tool, but good enough. The most difficult part - finding the M10 - 1 bolt to screw into the hangar. That is a metric extra fine thread. I was able to locate them and some M10-1 nuts on ebay. The arm is a 1 inch aluminum angle from Lowe's. I use a small clamp and a pencil for the 'indicator' After around $10 the tool, which is not real elegant, worked fine. I can't bend the hangar using my tool. and I can't slide the indicator on the aluminum angle, but it got me a lot closer to an exact alignment.


Modern derailleurs are actually somewhat tolerant of misalignment, meaning you can be a degree or two off and everything probably will work OK.

Over seven months and 3000+ miles after my realignment, all is still well. The chain broke about a week after I rejoined it. The second time around I used a punch to flatten the end of the pin so it wouldn't slide out again. No problems ever since. In fact, the bike has been largely trouble free other than routine maintenance like brake cables, chain cleaning, occasional truing. Only mishap was a broken rear hub shell but I had put 1500 miles on the wheels, in addition to whatever the original owner put on them. I bought a new set of wheels since I figured I was due.

Good luck with your old bike project. I'm going to refurbish my rusty old Raleigh this winter once I can find someplace to weld the broken rear chainstay. Should be a fun project.


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## will (Dec 24, 2012)

I completely stripped the frame and fork. I tried to get original decals for the bike, no luck with that. I did find a place that makes custom vinyl lettering. Decals would have been better....


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## will (Dec 25, 2012)

maybe a dumb question - My old Schwinn was a 10 speed road bike in its original form. I converted it to a 14 speed with Shimano Indexed Shifting (SIS) . I replaced the down tube shifters with 7 speed SIS and the rear Cogs with 7 speeds. I also put on a Simano 105 rear derailleur. This all works fine. I am pretty sure the shifter and the number of rear cogs should be the same for the SIS to work properly. 

Is there any difference in the rear derailleur? Other than long arm or short arm... Is the geometry the same for all rear derailleurs?


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## jtr1962 (Dec 26, 2012)

will said:


> maybe a dumb question - My old Schwinn was a 10 speed road bike in its original form. I converted it to a 14 speed with Shimano Indexed Shifting (SIS) . I replaced the down tube shifters with 7 speed SIS and the rear Cogs with 7 speeds. I also put on a Simano 105 rear derailleur. This all works fine. I am pretty sure the shifter and the number of rear cogs should be the same for the SIS to work properly.
> 
> Is there any difference in the rear derailleur? Other than long arm or short arm... Is the geometry the same for all rear derailleurs?


As far as I know, so long as you match the shifter and number of rear cogs you're good to go. You just need to pick a rear derailleur which can handle the range of teeth for your particular setup-long cage for wide range gearing, short cage for typical road bike gearing, medium cage for something in between.


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## will (Dec 26, 2012)

The reason I asked is that I have having a problem getting the bike to shift correctly. I almost always have been able to connect the wire, then a small adjustment and I have been good to go. This time it is giving me problems on the larger cogs.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 26, 2012)

What type of problem exactly? If it's not shifting to the larger cogs at all, then it might be because the chain is too short. If you're having a problem where the chain isn't centered on the cogs, your shift cable might be binding or perhaps needs lubrication. If the problem is only with the largest cog, then you might need to adjust one of the derailleur limit screws. Another issue with SIS shifters is the cable stretches slightly in the beginning. You might need to readjust everything after a few weeks. Finally, if the chain needs a cleaning then this could be the cause of multiple issues, including not shifting properly.


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## will (Dec 26, 2012)

What type of problem exactly? If it's not shifting to the larger cogs at all, then it might be because the chain is too short. 
The chain is new, the same length as the original. It shifts to the large cogs, but it sometimes rattles there.

If you're having a problem where the chain isn't centered on the cogs, your shift cable might be binding or perhaps needs lubrication. 
This is a new cable, the only housing is in the rear, by the derailleur. lots of oil in it, no binding.

If the problem is only with the largest cog, then you might need to adjust one of the derailleur limit screws. 
I adjusted the limit screws so the derailleur has full travel across all the cogs. I visually center the small wheels on the derailleur with the small and large cog. 

Another issue with SIS shifters is the cable stretches slightly in the beginning. You might need to readjust everything after a few weeks.
It seems that each ride I take, it has to be adjusted, and, the clamp screw is tight.

Finally, if the chain needs a cleaning then this could be the cause of multiple issues, including not shifting properly. 
I had to replace the chain, the original was stretched in a few spots, I would get a 'clunk' when the old chain settled on the cogs.

Anyhow. It shifts fine when I have it upside down and run through all the cogs, ( no bike stand here in Florida ) Getting it out on the road, it will shift pretty good most of the time, but every once in awhile it will rattle between cogs. Tomorrow I will set it back to the small cog, loosen the cable and set the adjustment all the way in. during the ride, I'll start to move the adjustment out until it works OK. 

Thanks for the info....


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## will (Dec 27, 2012)

Did I mention this was an old Schwinn Bike? It has downtube shifters. When I refinished the bike and re-installed the shifters, I did not tighten the pivot screws all the way. This in turn allowed the shift lever to angle and as it tries to pull the derailleur to the largest cog.The cable then loses some of its length. This is most likely why I was having problems. I'll know for sure later today when I go out for a quick ride. 

Sometimes the simplest things will cause a problem...


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## will (Jan 1, 2013)

Whew - I switched the lever off the SIS and have had no problems. I now suspect there is something wrong with index system in the lever. I had replaced the original one and now I am thinking to put the original back on. No matter how I adjusted the derailleur, I could not get it to work properly with the newer lever.


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## jtr1962 (Jan 2, 2013)

will said:


> Did I mention this was an old Schwinn Bike? It has downtube shifters. When I refinished the bike and re-installed the shifters, I did not tighten the pivot screws all the way. This in turn allowed the shift lever to angle and as it tries to pull the derailleur to the largest cog.The cable then loses some of its length. This is most likely why I was having problems. I'll know for sure later today when I go out for a quick ride.


My old Raleigh had downtube shifters. When I put on SIS shifters I had to "adapt" a few things to make it work, including tightening the shift lever pivot screws all the way. The shifting has never been as precise on this bike as it is on my Airborne which was designed for SIS shifters. It also didn't help that I was using Campagnolo shifters and a Shimano rear cluster (yes, they're technically incompatible but they can be made to work together reasonable well).



will said:


> Whew - I switched the lever off the SIS and have had no problems. I now suspect there is something wrong with index system in the lever. I had replaced the original one and now I am thinking to put the original back on. No matter how I adjusted the derailleur, I could not get it to work properly with the newer lever.


It is possible you have a defective lever. Perhaps check to see if there are any burrs or metal chips in there left over from the manufacturing process?


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## will (Jan 3, 2013)

I should learn to trust my mechanical abilities. All the years I have worked on bikes, the longest it ever took me to adjust the Shimano Index System is 15 minutes or so. I did check the newer lever for dirt, burrs and anything else that might make it not work, everything looked fine. Right number of clicks, same Shimano 105 lever. 

I put the old lever back on, 10 minutes inside to tighten up the cable, then a 10 mile ride with a few 1/4 turns on the adjustment on the rear derailleur and every thing is good in the world. I did have one or two 'pops' at first.

There is something wrong with the replacement lever, but I really can't say what it is.

It is nice to be able to ride trouble free....

jtr1962 - thanks for the advice - you have been spot on.....


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## will (Jan 22, 2013)

I have been riding this for awhile now. It is index shifting nicely...

This is a picture of the restored bike. Purple/Green color shift paint from Dupli-color. It is called mirage paint...


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## joel1952 (Jul 19, 2019)

*ZOMBIE THREAD!!! Using an old wheel with threaded axle as a Derailleur Alignment Tool*



jtr1962 said:


> I managed to successfully bend the hanger back. I got the brainstorm today that the rear axle bolt might be the same size as the derailleur bolt. Turns out it is. I took an old rear wheel, screwed one side down tight into the hanger, and then proceeded to bend the hanger back. It required surprisingly little force. First I did it by eye, seeing if the axle of the spare wheel and the axle of the bike's rear wheel were aligned in both planes. After that, I held an adjustable wrench right up against the braking surface of the rear wheel and rotated the spare wheel to see if it remained in contact with the braking surface as I rotated the spare wheel. I needed to make a few minor adjustments. This probably isn't as good as I might have gotten it with the derailleur alignment tool, but it looks to be no more than maybe 1/8" deviation. That translates to alignment to within 1/2 degree-probably plenty good enough for things to work well. Bottom line spare rear wheel=poor man's derailleur alignment gauge!
> 
> I'll know for sure if I did it right once I install a new derailleur. I'm still looking on eBay.



I just want to say that your idea is GENIUS!!. Not only is it a no cost, no special tool solution...It might even be _better _than the special tool.

The special tools have some slack and the measurement precision, from my research, varies 0.5 to 1.5 mm for the quality tools. I think with your solution there is less slack because you can cinch down the axle in the derailleur mounting hole with a lock nut and if the hub bearings in the wheel are OK, there will be virtually no slack.

The only downside that I see is that it might be a little tricky to make the measurements. There is no sliding measuring stick like the special tools so it would be a little problematic to get a parallel _and _accurate measurement of the distance from your _tool _wheel to the _bike's _wheel 

Kudos and thanks for helping me with _my _bent titanium derailleur hanger


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