# Digilight T12 or Surefire 9P ?



## MuleSkinner (Feb 9, 2006)

Hi I am new to the forums and have been looking for a good light to carry for some time now. I want to be able to use the light for frog gigging and Coon hunting. I do not like to carry a big flashlight or spotlight when doing this due to heavy brush and working the dogs when coon hunting.

The T12 is 99.95 and shoots out 227 Lums with a 80 minute burn time and comes with holster and spare battery carrier. It also comes with 2 rubber sleeves for when the light gets warm. The flashlight carrys a 5 year warrenty.

The 9P will run me around 157.00 for the light ( 105 lums for one hour) and the P91 lamp ( 200 lums for 20 minutes) , batteries, spares carrier and fixed loop holster. It carrys a lifetime warrenty.

My biggest question is has anyone did any sort of test to see which one carries a tighter beam or is brighter at say 100 yards? Also how hot does the light get?

Burn time per battery change is important and price ( not over 175.00 Wife is gonna kill me anyway), but most important is having a tight beam and being bright.

Any input into this would be greatly appriciated. I am really tickled to find these forums as I luv Flashlights


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## billvan (Feb 9, 2006)

I too am interested in the T12! One thing for sure is that the SF will eat through the batteries with a P91... the T12, using 4 123's instead of the 3 in the SF will give the longer runtime to the T12 with slightly more output. Digilight is supposed to have pretty good quality. Have you considered the rechargable 9V model? Might save some $$'s in battery usage and the price is between the SF and the T12 using primary batts. 
Bill


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## zehnmm (Feb 9, 2006)

Welcome Muleskinner!

FYI, I recently bought a Stream-Light TL-3. This light weighs around 6 to 7 ounces; runs off of 3x123 batteries for about 1 hour of time at a very bright level. It is advertised as something like 175 lumens. From my viewpoint, it is pretty darn bright. Throws well; has adjustable focus on front head. I got it for $48 via Amazon, shipping included. This light is an incredible value. You might check it's review (along with other SL lights) at http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/streamlight_tactical.htm

I have on order some protected 17500 rechargeables (2 of these = 3x 123's) that I plan to run in it. 

I live out in the country in south central New Mexico and this light is my bump-in-the-night, walk the dogs, or carry in the car, just-in-case light. It can be carried in a pocket, although it is a bit big for that in my mind. 

There are quite a few other choices out there for you and we do have a multitude of very learned and experienced CPF members who post on the forum. I hope they will share their thoughts, too.

Best regards!


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 9, 2006)

The T12's G120 lamp and Surefire's P91 lamp happen to be extremely similar in their huge beam width and generous total output. But only the P91 can be run on protected rechargeables; the G120 will hot flash. If you want a bright flood, use a P91 in a T12 body with two 168S or 168B cells. For longer run time (about 50 minutes), get the new 2x18650 body from CPFer' TranquillityBase (under Mods, I think) for $60 or $70, add the necessary tailcap, stepup adapter, and P-type head, and run the P91 on two 168A cells.

If you prefer throw, get a Streamlight TL-3.

All these bodies get hot. Pila and Wolf Eyes bodies with the 45mm heads stay comfortable because they use thick, oversize, finned heads as heat sinks.


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## theamazingrando (Feb 9, 2006)

The TL-3 is a gret light, and a great bargain! 

If you take Paul's advice on the Digilight 12v body with rechargables and a 9v lamp, you can get the T12 from blackrifles.com for $80 +shipping. If you want the mini-turbo head, you can mix and match the T12 body with the 9v turbo head and a tailswitch from Blackrifles' parts page. (of course, then you don't get the accessories)


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## MuleSkinner (Feb 10, 2006)

Folks thanks for the advice so far. I have been reading some of the reviews ( Thanks zehnmm for the link) and read about "throw and output". I did not see anything on Digi lights or the Surefire 9P? It was cool though to look through there and see all the reviews Quickbeam has done.

Paul mentioned the "huge beam width" of both the 9P and T12. Does this mean there throw is not that good?

Also am I understanding correctly that throw is the amount of distance the beam carrys? [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Qups defines how much light the flashlight actually puts out correct?

So if I am say 100 to 1550 yards out and looking into trees I would be more concerned about throw that Qups right?

I really would like to stay in a size that can be carried on a belt loop if possible. I used to carry a Mag 4D and it drove me nuts. 

Anyway I never knew there was that much to lights till I got to reading some of this stuff. Amazing :huh:
[/font]


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## mdocod (Feb 11, 2006)

since you are going to be away from a source to charge your batteries, and may need to carry hours worth of run-time on you at any given time, (i'm just guessing here, based on what you plan to do with it).. You may be best served to just stock up on lithium primaries and skip the complicated rechargable solutions... you can get em for $1 each online... The T12 is actually brighter than the P91 lamp in the surefire, but more importantly, it is much more efficiant.

P91 lamp: ~200 [email protected]~2.5amps, 20 minut runtime on 3x123 primaries. will require about 9 batteries per hour to operate brightly. The high current demands really don't make efficiant use of the lithium-primaries capabilities.
G120 lamp: ~225 [email protected]~1.4amps, at least 50 minuts runtime per 4 batteries.

bottom line: the G120 lamp will give you more light and consume less batteries doing it. Also means you don't have to stop and change out batteries every 20 minuts.

now depending on what you decide to go with... depending on what current requirements you lamp has, you will get better performance from different batteries...
here's a 123 primary shootout done by Silverfox... https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/67078
in the charts, you notice that some cells are better at different discharge rates... at 1amp the duracell, sanyo, surefire, rayovan, and streamlight cells are on top, but at 2amp, the batterystation/new titanium cells take the lead... so compare costs of cells online to performance in the flashlight you choose (based on current) to decide which cells are the most cost-effective. For most incandecent flashlights, the New titanium cells at $1 each are the best deal... 

but then... maybe you do want to go rechargable...

sorry, i'm really rambling, i am up late with nothing to do and a fridge full of mnt dew...


so... you could assess your needs on a given outing (number of runtime hours needed before returning home), and buy up enough rechargable li-ions to last through a trip. so that each time you return, you could charge back up without spending more on primaries... 

Based on your need for throw and desire for decent run-time... If I were to suggest a setup right now that was rechargable... it would be the following...

1xdigilightT12 (body only) from blackrifles.com: $34.95
1xdigilight 9V Range extender head from blackrifles.com: $36.95
1xdigilight tailcap clicky from blackrifles.com: $14.95
shipping from blackrifles: ~$10

Then head on over to the dealer section of our handy little forum...
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/97268
there exactly...
and buy a DSD charger and batteries from AW... The body above will hold 2 17670 size cells, you are going to want the protected ones. 2 cells in the light will run it for over an hour, so buy as many pairs as needed for the required runtime...

assuming you buy the charger and 6 cells: $78 shipped

total cost of flashlight: ~$175

keep in mind, that a 9V digilight, would have consumed 123 primaries at a rate of about 3/hr, the rechargable option, will completally pay for itself in about 26 hours of use, at which point, you would have bought ~78 lithium primaries.



ok nuff said.... for now, lol...


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## MuleSkinner (Feb 11, 2006)

Thank you so much for that info












Am I to understand then that the "digilight 9V Range extender head" is the G120 lamp or do I need to buy that seperatly?


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## mdocod (Feb 12, 2006)

Actually, it's a G90 lamp... however.. I am still not 100% sure about that one final detail... i'm kinda wondering if the range extender head includes the lamp or if you would have to buy that separatally... it would make since that it includes the lamp because there would be no need to sell a 9V and 12V version separatally if they were nothing more than reflectors that mounted to the lamp... I think it's all one unit.


Before you buy anything... lets make sure and have paul or one of the other experts on these lamps look at a list of the items you plan to buy... to make sure there will be compatability.... I just bought my first lithium-ion-xenon light, and at first it was all very confusing, i didn't understand what all was compatable...


I was thinking about your relations with the wife... spending that much on a flashlight might not make her too happy unless you spend twice that much on something for her, hehe... If you wanted to really cut down on cost but still have a very viable powerfull light that is compact (lithium-ion powered)... you could look at some of the cheaper offerings from ultrafire and G&P...

on that note... a QUESTION on behalf of myself and Muleskinner: has anyone tried fitting the turbo heads from digilight or G&P on an ultrafire body.

To cut down on cost a significant amount... G&P has some turbohead style lights... I've seen em on ebay..

G&P X-9 from ebay (9V flashlight with turbohead and G90 lamp): $59 shipped
17500 protected lithium-ion rechargables: $6.45 ea +shippin? @ emilionsworkshop.com
DSD charger from AW: $13.50

depending on how many batteries you buy... this could really cut down on the cost factor...


Problem I see with most of my suggestions up to this point is basically that you might want MORE output. the G90 is a very good lamp, I have been using it for reading addresses on houses while deliverying pizzas and pointing around the forest for fun.... It has the power to not get washed out by portch lighting, and in very dark areas on town, it is like turning on a porch light of my own... But if you really want MORE light than these lamps have to offer (P91/G120).. then rechargable solutions get much more expensive and/or complicated.


having said all this.... have you decided if you want to go with a rechargable solution or not?


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## CLHC (Feb 12, 2006)

Don't know about the DigiLight. If the SureFire 9P is chosen, then one of the SRTH heads can be had for that "throw" people are fond of. It's found here:

http://lagger-pro.com/hd3t.htm

The price does get anted up though. But hope you find what you're looking for and Enjoy!


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## mdocod (Feb 12, 2006)

hold off on everything said thus far- there might be a very large difference between the G90s being sold most places, and the DRB-9VHP sold direct from digi-light... and the differences probabaly carry over to their other lamps too... (G120 vs DRB-12VHP etc etc)... I started a thread not long ago for folks to post pictures and discuss the variations in "G&P" lamps on the market... as of right now, it apears that the lamps sold direct from tradedigit are much more efficiant. (using about 30% less power to make the same light). It would be wise to hold off on the purchase decision untill we come to a conclusion about this.

my thread can be found here...
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/106926


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## CLHC (Feb 12, 2006)

Fair enough.


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## Dan_GSR (Feb 12, 2006)

any reviews on the T12 ?
who has one?


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## MuleSkinner (Feb 12, 2006)

Mdocod and others thank for working with me on this. It sounds like you know what your talking about so I will use your guidance in this purchase. If possible I really would like to have the G120 for the extra lums. The rechargeable part sounds nice too. Once the are charged how long do the hold a charge say "Just sitting on the shelf"? Also if needed would I be able to by just plain lith battery’s if I was out and needed to use the light?


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 12, 2006)

MuleSkinner said:


> If possible I really would like to have the G120 for the extra lums. The rechargeable part sounds nice too.


As pointed out in many threads on the G&P lamps and lights, the G120 costs upward of $7 an hour to run on primary cells; no one has tried running them on 4x3V lithium-ions; and the only way you can reliably power it from three conventional (3.7-4.2V) lithium-ions is to use unprotected R123A cells, which can be dangerous if you let them discharge too far. 



MuleSkinner said:


> Once the are charged how long do the hold a charge say "Just sitting on the shelf"?
> 
> 
> > Lithium-ions lose only 1 to 3 percent of their charge per month.
> ...


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 12, 2006)

Dan_GSR said:


> any reviews on the T12 ?
> who has one?


There are a few T12s: Digilight; G&P; and I think Cabela. No one has reviewed the T12 per se, but various CPFers have reviewed the Digilight T9, the LEDWave Z-3 (a T-9 with a miniturbo head), and variations of these that use a G120 lamp. Search for these models under Incandescents, Reviews, and General Flashlights.

I own a Digilight T9 and an LEDWave Z-3. Their bodies and heads are similar in quality and completely compatible with Surefire P parts and with each other's parts. 

The Digilight's clickie tailcap is first-rate. I prefer it to my Surefire Z48, though the Z48's clickie button is recessed and hence can be used in candle mode.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 12, 2006)

mdocod said:


> I am still not 100% sure about that one final detail... i'm kinda wondering if the range extender head includes the lamp.


It does!


> Before you buy anything... lets make sure and have paul or one of the other experts on these lamps look at a list of the items you plan to buy... to make sure there will be compatability....


Complete compatibility is assured between the following lineups: Surefire P/C; Digilight; G&P T series; LEDWave/Camillus Z-3; Cabela's XPG series.[/quote]



> on that note... a QUESTION on behalf of myself and Muleskinner: has anyone tried fitting the turbo heads from digilight or G&P on an ultrafire body.


I don't think that TradeDigit's head, tailcap, or body will mate with parts from these lines. Someone wrote that the diameter was similar but the threads were different. At least at the tail end.

It used to be that if you wanted to build a 9V light in a 4x123A body, you could save a bundle of money by buying a 4x123A flashlight from TradeDigit along with a G90 lamp. There are now two ways to do so that are nearly as cheap but better:

Build it with parts from Blackrifles.com. This approach is especially sensible if you plan to use a miniturbo and not a narrow tactical head.
Build a 2x18650 headless body with a 1x18650 P-compatible body and a 1x18650 P-compatible extender, both from Emillion. I'm still not sure how to order the 1x18650 body or who makes it; I don't see it listed on his site. This approach will give you a 45-50-minute runtime when using a Surefire P91 lamp assembly.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 12, 2006)

If you think you'll ever run a high-current lamp like the P91 or a 3.7V lamp assembly from Wolf Eyes, Pila, or G&P, start out right by using lithium-ions from Wolf Eyes, Pila, or Microfire. If you start with AW cells, you'll have to start over with one of these. You can use an affordable DSD charger (unless you get the new Pila 300 or 600 cells; these require Pila's new $49 smart charger). Remember, "The poor man pays twice."


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 12, 2006)

Wolf Eyes will soon be selling new 9V and 12V lamp assemblies that are claimed to deliver 50% more output than before. The narrow version of the 9V (the D26) will work in a Surefire P-type tactical head.


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## MuleSkinner (Feb 12, 2006)

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> As pointed out in many threads on the G&P lamps and lights, the G120 costs upward of $7 an hour to run on primary cells; no one has tried running them on 4x3V lithium-ions; and the only way you can reliably power it from three conventional (3.7-4.2V) lithium-ions is to use unprotected R123A cells, which can be dangerous if you let them discharge too far.



Ok So if I go with the G120 I cannot use rechargables correct?

TO be honest with you guys I am waaay over my head in what you all are talking about. I have tried to read and understand what you all are talking about. 

I am not sure if the more lums equal more throw which I think I understand to mean greater distance? If that is the case then that is why I would really like to have the G120. 

I am pretty sure Frog gigging and coon hunting ain't up anyones alley here, but I would just like to find a good, compact light that rides will on your beltside, with lots of throw that might be rechargable. Did I mention I really like the G120 with output of 227 lums.

Now if putting together a good flashlight with a piece from here or there I am cool with that.

Sorry for the rant and I am usually one of the most patient people around, but I have been chomping at the bit to have a really good flashlight.:sweat:




Paul_in_Maryland said:


> Remember, "The poor man pays twice."



I heard that Paul. I really appriciate the feedback and that is one of the reasons I came here so that I could do it right the first time.


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## mdocod (Feb 12, 2006)

MuleSkinner said:


> Ok So if I go with the G120 I cannot use rechargables correct?


sortof... basically, the answer to your question is "yes," for general use I would not suggest doing it with the currently available options.. In reality, you CAN run a G120 on 3 3.7V CR123 (rechargable lithium-ions same size as lithium primaries)... Using larger rechargables results in flashed bulbs, and the only small cells that will work are unprotected, which is a big problem for maintaining the health of the cells, then to top off that problem, you only get about 20-25 minuts of runtime out of the small cells. Running them down too low destroys the cells... 



> TO be honest with you guys I am waaay over my head in what you all are talking about. I have tried to read and understand what you all are talking about.



don't worry about it, we all love discussing this stuff anyways, sharing what we know to make you know so you can help us share it with others is what a forum is all about.



> I am not sure if the more lums equal more throw which I think I understand to mean greater distance? If that is the case then that is why I would really like to have the G120.



when you are talking about the same focus from the reflector, more lumens will give more throw, but throw is more strongly effected by the reflector type than the lumens you have to work with.. Both my G90 and G120 lamps are almost exactly the same focus, so the G120 does illuminate objects farther off slightly better... But a G90 with a turbo head would out throw a G120 in the normal reflector.



> I am pretty sure Frog gigging and coon hunting ain't up anyones alley here, but I would just like to find a good, compact light that rides will on your beltside, with lots of throw that might be rechargable. Did I mention I really like the G120 with output of 227 lums.



what flashlight have you been using in the past- so maybe we will know if the output of these lamps will compare? in complete darkness in the woods, the output of both of these lamps is very impressive for their size.




> Sorry for the rant and I am usually one of the most patient people around, but I have been chomping at the bit to have a really good flashlight.



Yea, I was in a hurry to get one too, but I was glad I spent a few weeks reading around and asking questions before placing an order... when spending a decent chunk of change, you want to make sure this is a flashlight that you will really apreciate. 


Paul mentioned the wolf-eyes 200lumen 9V lamp coming out soon.... it might be a good idea to buy a light and run 2 rechargable cells driving a G90, then when wolf-eyes comes out with their new lamp you could quickly upgrade to it...

Then again... Pila has some 200-500lumens options also... but i can't find the web-page.... might be worth a look.


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## MuleSkinner (Feb 13, 2006)

Thanks again for the help. How big is the turbohead and is it practical enough to carry on your side everyday without it being annoying? 

When we got Hunting a couple of guys carry a 1,000,000 spotlight that is rechargeable and I usually carry a 4D Maglite with a xenon bulb. It it ok with new batterys, but it seems to lose it's brightness quickly. 

I got 175.00 for my budget and if we need to piece together a light that will work good I am for it. 


mdocod and Paul thank you all for leading the blind through the woods :thanks:


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## mdocod (Feb 14, 2006)

most of those "1million candle power" spotlights(common ones made by vector/colmen, etc, found at hardware stores, walmart, target etc)... are in the ballpark of about 300-400 lumens. half that bright in a pocketable package aint bad, and that's exactly where the brightness of the G90/G120 is... about half that bright... now, compare your 4D mag to the "million candle power spotlight" and you'll realize that it is a mere fraction of the brightness of the spotlight... whereas these tactical lights we are discussing here, can actually hold a decent "candle" to the "spotlights." 



> It it ok with new batterys, but it seems to lose it's brightness quickly.


infamous mag problem, sortof impressive at first, but then nothing to write home about after the first 10 minuts of runtime. lithium-ion lights don't sag as dim as soon, they stay at a higher output for longer, but then shut down completally after the cells drop to about 2.75V...(protection kciks in)....


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 14, 2006)

MuleSkinner said:


> Thanks again for the help. How big is the turbohead and is it practical enough to carry on your side everyday without it being annoying?



41mm Streamlight TL-3 and Stinger, new Pila
42mm Wolf Eyes 9D/9DX
43mm Digilight/G&P/Cabela's, Microfire
45mm Wolf Eyes 9M/9MX/M90/M90X and Pila GL3X, GL3XR, GL4, GL4R
I've used them all. I'd say that anything wider than 42mm, you'll feel the bump if you keep it in your pocket. However, MadCove (spelling?) and other CPF law-enforcement officers (LEOs) carry the 45mm heads in a proper holster without complaint.

Some even carry a MAG, with its 2-inch head.

I would think that 2.5-inch turbo would become too wide to carry at one's side, but I've never tried it.


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## theamazingrando (Feb 14, 2006)

I at least, find frog gigging and coon hunting to be "up my alley." 

Eitehr the 9v or 12v lights should be lots of light for you. 

I recommend that you piece together the Digilight from Blackrifles.com. 

The package recommended above (post #7)uses the range-extending (throw enhancing) mini-turbo head (which is still smaller diameter than your maglite head) with a ( volt lamp on a 12 volt body. 

The reason I recommend the longer 12v body (designed to hold 4 cr123 cells) is so you can use two of the larger lithium ion echargeable cells (also referenced in post #7) to drive the 9v lamp for a decent run time at approx. 175 lumens. 

With this set-up, you will have the option of using the 12v lamp assembly with 4 (non-rechargeable) cr123 cells in the same flashlight. You will blow the 9volt lamp with 4 cells, but if you swap in the 12v lamp (either buy one with the mini-turbo reflector already installed, or, get a 12v lamp to screw into the mini-turb reflector--at the risk of having to fiddle endlessly to get your focus back).

On the whole, though, I think you will prefer the 9v rechargeable system. The difference between the 9v and 12v lamps is not that large in actual use, and the digilite 9v is quite impressive. ...but you will still have the option of the 12v (223 lumen) lamp in this flashlight.

I think if you look at the list above (post #7) and check out the options at Blackrifles.com you will see that you can configure things jsut the way you want--either starting with the 12v and the range extender head and adding the 9v rechargeable option later (with jsut a lamp, batteries, and charger)--or starting with the 9v--or buying the whole set-up from the start. By ordering only 4 rechargeable cells (2 sets) instead of 6 you can squeeze the 12v lamp into your budget as well. 

I don't know if I'm making sense with all this--let me know if I need to describe anything further. 

You will not go back to your maglite (unless you make it into an ROP...)!


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## MuleSkinner (Feb 14, 2006)

Cool guys that so much for the info.

What is the differance between the 9V and 12V systems? I was reading Pauls review on the upcoming M100X 12V Bulb that was gonna carry 300 lumuns :huh: but the head on it was 2.5 Inches which is kinda big for carrying it everyday. The head for the G90 was right at 43mm 1.7 inchs. 

Got to looking around at that Pila GL4 Series that kicks 550 lums, but will burn/explode ya if ya run it for more than 5 minutes. I could see me giging a frog and forget to cut that thing off in time. Ouch !!

Guys the more I read the more confused I get :thinking:

At this point I really dont know if it has to be a SF or Digi. I like the idea of rechargables. 

Rando you mention running a 9V with a 12V head? Also the recharging system would be for the 9V and then use a different set for the 12V?

Also would those batterys be the ones that Paul refers to as lithium-ions? I really dont want to have to rebuy batterys down the road. Don't mind buying extra later.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 14, 2006)

Heck, if you don't need Surefire P compatibility, consider FiveMega's 2x168A Stinger upgrade: 350 lumens.

And yes, the cells he referred to are "my" lithium-ions.


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## theamazingrando (Feb 14, 2006)

The Digilite combo that mdocod and I recommended above (posts #6 and #7) is a Digilight 4 cell body for their 12volt lamp--it is designed to hold 4 cr123 3volt cells with a nominal rating of 12volts. 

I recommend that 4 cell body with the 9volt lamp and rechargeables. The londer 4 cell body will hold two 17670 lrechargeable ithium ion cells (which are 17mm in diameter and 67mm long) which provide the proper voltage to run the 9volt 175 lumen lamp. 

If you wanted to convert this combo from a rechargeable 9volt (175 lumen) flashlight to the non-rechargeable 12volt (225 lumen) option all you would need to do is install a 12volt lamp and 4 non-rchargeable cells. 

Does that make sense? You mate the 12 volt flashlight body (designed for 4 non-rechargable cells) with the 9 volt lamp (usually used with a 3 cell flashlight body), then add 2 long rechargeable batteries (which have a higher useful voltage than the non-rechargeable variety). 

So, you'd be combining parts to create a "custom" rechargable 175 lumen flashlight with the range extender head.

When running it with the 12volt lamp you would use non-rechargeable cells.


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## mdocod (Feb 14, 2006)

I just got word back from Jeff over at digilight... 

at one time, the G&P G90 was a direct replacement for the diglight lamp, because they were identacle, but over time, digilight has been making improvements to their own lamps. So it is true that a fresh stock DRB-9VHP direct from digilight has 100% chance of being the more efficiant 0.8Amp version, whereas blackrifles probably still has the older stock regular G90s... (which is why I got a regular G90 from blackrifles in a digilight package)... so if you do decide to piece together a flashlight, order the lamp direct from digilight, but you could still order the body and tailclicky from blackrifles to save some money. The more efficiant lamp direct from digilight, will give about 30% longer run time than the regular G90 at the same or better brightness.

if you are still confused about the setup.. maybe I can help clear things up a bit by describing the different batteries we are discussing...

first off. A regular 123 lithium primary battery, is aproximatally 16mm in diameter, by 34mm in length. it is a 3V cell. they are also refered to as 16340 size cells. (16x34>cell shape).

the 12V bodies will hold 4 of those size cells in series (end to end) for a 12V system.

as it would happen, the bodies of most of these flashlights have slightly larger bores on the interior than needed for these cells to fit, and you can actually fot a cell that is 17mm in diameter.

lithium-ion rechargables are different in that they are more like 4V fresh off the charger (rated 3.7V nominal). you can combine 2 rechargable cells, each one being slightly larger diameter than a regular lithium primary 123, and twice the length, into a 4x123 (12V) body. The result is about 8Volts... That is where the "17670" comes in. it is 17mm diameter, and 67mm long. 

See, a 9V lamp(driven by 3 123 lithium primaries), actually sags the voltage from lithium primaries down to around 8v or less while the lamp is on. Lithium-ion rechargable batteries, do not suffer as much voltage sag under the same load, so when driving the lamp, the 2x3.7Vlithium-ions acually run the lamp at about the same brightness as the 3x3Vlithiums.


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## theamazingrando (Feb 14, 2006)

Thanks for the lamp update! 

In light of that info, let me change my recommendation: buy the 12v mini-turbo assembly with your light from Blackrifles, and purchase your volt lamps directly from Digilight.


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## LumenHound (Feb 14, 2006)

mdocod said:


> I just got word back from Jeff over at digilight...
> 
> at one time, the G&P G90 was a direct replacement for the diglight lamp, because they were identacle, but over time, digilight has been making improvements to their own lamps. So it is true that a fresh stock DRB-9VHP direct from digilight has 100% chance of being the more efficiant 0.8Amp version, whereas blackrifles probably still has the older stock regular G90s... (which is why I got a regular G90 from blackrifles in a digilight package)...



Thanks mdocod, now we finally have a clear picture of what's going on with the difference between the G & P lamps and the Digilight DRB-9VHP.

If anyone wants to get 175 lumens from a pair of 123A sized protected rechargeables then the slightly more expensive but way more efficient Digilight DRB-9VHP is the better choice.

For a while there I was beginning to wonder if I had a more efficient_super_ high pressure bulb that snuck out of the factory unannounced on my hands but now we know the whole story on these Digilight brand marvels.

Three cheers for ongoing product development.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 14, 2006)

I wonder whether Digilight's 6V and 12V lamps are more efficient, higher in output, or both, than their G&P counterparts?


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## Flash_Gordon (Feb 14, 2006)

Does this improvement apply to both the 9V & 12V lamps?

Is there an indication on the LA's to indicate whether they are new stock or the original version.?


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## mdocod (Feb 14, 2006)

i have posted the responce from Jeff at digilight over in the thread "identify the G90s picts"... you can also read the question I sent them over there...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/106926

I think it is safe to assume that the digilight improvements are probably accross the line, 6V, 9V, and 12V DRB lamps are probably all slightly better than their G&P counterparts...

this really sheds some "new light" on why we have variations in G&P lamps accross the board... if you wanted to make a 2x123 size rechargable, the digilight lamp will do it easily with protected cells.


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## editedby (Feb 14, 2006)

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> only the P91 can be run on protected rechargeables; the G120 will hot flash.


Paul - I'm a little confused by the above; I've read that 3 unprotected 123s will work, I thought the issue with unprotected was the double triple/clicking? What configuration will hotflash? Thanks


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## MuleSkinner (Feb 15, 2006)

Paul I looked at the stinger upgrade and that is one cool looking light. I am not sure if he is still taking orders on that?

Mdocod and Rando thank you for clearing that up for me and for all the advice. 

All you guys know so much about lights. I myself have picked up a little bit here and will be making regular daily rounds through here to try to enhance my knowledge of lights. I think I need to learn about them one thing at a time. 

As far as buying a light I still am not sure, but with some good advice I have gotten here I hopefully will be able to make a choice that will be useful for many years to come. 

You all rock :rock:


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 15, 2006)

editedby said:


> Paul - I'm a little confused by the above; I've read that 3 unprotected 123s will work, I thought the issue with unprotected was the double triple/clicking? What configuration will hotflash? Thanks




3xR123A cells, protected: Won't work at all.
3xR123A cells, unprotected: will work with a single click. Use AW's special high-current cells; see his threads under Dealers.
3x150A, 150B, 150S cells, protected: Will work but will eventually hot flash the G120.
3x168A, 168B, 168S cells, protected: Will work but will probably instantly hot flash the G120.
3x17500, 18500 cells, protected: Will not light up a G120, even when double clicked.
3x17670, 18650 cells, protected: "Should" light up a G120 but will probably hot flash it eventually.
3x17500, 18500, 17670, or 18650 cells, unprotected: Will light up a G120 with one click, but will hot flash it sooner or later.
The hot flash probem could be solved if someone came up with a thin (4mm) resistor to absorb the initial shock. Or if G&P raisied the G120's nominal voltage by 1V.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 15, 2006)

MuleSkinner said:


> Paul I looked at the stinger upgrade and that is one cool looking light. I am not sure if he is still taking orders on that?


Yes, thanks the efforrts of LurvEleven (Spelling?), FiveMega has made a new batch of these. You can buy one today and have it in a few days.


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## editedby (Feb 15, 2006)

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> The hot flash probem could be solved if someone came up with a thin (4mm) resistor to absorb the initial shock. Or if G&P raisied the G120's nominal voltage by 1V.


 
Thank you Paul.


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## mdocod (Feb 15, 2006)

> The hot flash probem could be solved if someone came up with a thin (4mm) resistor to absorb the initial shock. Or if G&P raisied the G120's nominal voltage by 1V.



i'd be willing to bet that the digilight versions of those lamps would probably handle the 3x(insert larger than 123 cell here) voltage better... they are lower current lamps, so they are more apt to be driven at closer to 12V when on 4X primaries. and thus the 3x4.2V of the ions might not be a problem... only problem is, who is willing to find out the hard way, eek...

any word on that wolf-eyes [email protected]? any links?


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## editedby (Feb 15, 2006)

> i'd be willing to bet that the digilight versions of those lamps would probably handle the 3x(insert larger than 123 cell here) voltage better...


 
Mdocod, Why not drop another e/mail to Jeff and ask? Tell him you and others on CPF (Lunarmodule, Paul in MD) are responsible for the small sales blip he's seeing  .


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 16, 2006)

mdocod said:


> Any word on that wolf-eyes [email protected]? any links?


Here. Mike Seward of Pacific Tactical Solutions now has them available.


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## mdocod (Feb 16, 2006)

hmmm, he says they are rated in bulb lumens, wonder if they are really all that much to get fired up about.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 17, 2006)

Mike Seward is sending me a Wolf Eyes 9A-II to evaluate, with the new 200-lumen lamp assembly. I've also ordered the miniturbo version of this lamp assembly (36mm reflector). Stay tuned for a full review in March, either in this forum or in the Reviews forum.

I will soon have enough bodies, heads, and lithium-ion cells to be able to show up to four 9V beams at once. And so, in a separate thread, I'll post a 9V shootout with beam shots comparing the two old and two new 9V Wolf Eyes lamp assemblies against the 9V lamp assemblies from G&P (tactical and miniturbo), Digilight (tactical and miniturbo), Pathfinder, Surefire (P91), and RICO (Alpha 9).


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## MuleSkinner (Feb 18, 2006)

First I want to thank Paul for being patient with me while I pmed him numerous times for advice. I started to go with the digi 9V with the turbo head, till fivemega came out with some more stuff for the stinger 75000 upgrade. With a chance to throw 350lums it became a no brainer. I grabbed this stuff below 

$22 Boro lens installed new reflector/black bezel for standard Stinger.
$38 battery adapter kit
2x$7 CA1499 bulb
and grabbed a Stinger off e-bay. Soon every frog and coon it East Tenn will fear the Mule. 


I also want to thank everyone that posted advice here. I may not have went in that direction, but the advice lead me to research and ask questions that have made me come to realize that I will be addicted to this site for a long time to come. 

Thanks everyone for helping the Mule become Enlightened !!


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## uz2busmc (Feb 23, 2006)

New to sight, but I wanted to post here to for anyone following this thread that might be interested, the t12 sells from cabela for $49.95 and I think it cost $7 for shipping - $57 total. It looks to be the t12 with cabela's name on it instead of "digilight". This, of course, includes the nylon holster and batts ( sanyo 123's)

My take on the light? - I'm no flashlight expert and have no experience with other high dollar flashlights to compare, but I will say that it impresses me. Still see spots if you shine it in your face with your eyes closed and feel the heat... pretty much instantly.... from 12'' away from your face as well. It is actually annoyingly bright if you are trying to look at something in your hand i.e. keys, i.d.'s, or just about anything up close - the reflection kills the fine detail and your vision... but I love it none the less.

Hopefully this newb oppinion was helpful to some one.


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## mdocod (Feb 23, 2006)

> Mdocod, Why not drop another e/mail to Jeff and ask?



I went ahead and did just that!... you can read the email I sent over in the "Identify the G90s" thread... basically asked if the improvements are on 6V, and 12V lamps as well, asked for current draw measurements on the other lamps, and asked if they have tested their 12V lamp with 3 lithium-ion cells.... maybe we'll hear back from them here soon.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 23, 2006)

uz2busmc said:


> New to sight, but I wanted to post here to for anyone following this thread that might be interested, the t12 sells from cabela for $49.95 and I think it cost $7 for shipping - $57 total. It looks to be the t12 with cabela's name on it instead of "digilight". This, of course, includes the nylon holster and batts ( sanyo 123's)


One diferences: The Cabela's uses a plastic lens (window). Digilight's is antireflection-coated (AR) glass. Other than that, the Cabella's is a terrific value...especially their miniturbo head, though I assume that its lens, too, is plastic (like the LEDWave's) and its lamp the original G&P, not the "Digilight special."

By the way, can you tell us how you like the Cabella's tailcap? Is it a reverse clickie or a positive cliickie? Does the switch itself protrude, or can you stand the flashlight on its tail?


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## uz2busmc (Feb 23, 2006)

I don't know if the lense is AR per say... but it is glass. ( warnings accompanied the light )

The tailcap I like, it is the protruding type. Once it is clicked on, it has sufficient ''play'' in the switch to do momentary on/off by keeping it slightly depressed for ''off''. It is a rather stout spring in there so extended periods with momentary on/off is a no go if you have week hands. I like fact that it is this way since it is the protruding type, don't have to worry as much about accidental on's.


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## editedby (Feb 23, 2006)

mdocod said:



> I went ahead and did just that!... you can read the email I sent over in the "Identify the G90s" thread... basically asked if the improvements are on 6V, and 12V lamps as well, asked for current draw measurements on the other lamps, and asked if they have tested their 12V lamp with 3 lithium-ion cells.... maybe we'll hear back from them here soon.


:goodjob: Great eagerly awaiting the response.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 24, 2006)

uz2busmc said:


> I don't know if the lense is AR per say... but it is glass. ( warnings accompanied the light )


Interesting. The miniturbo head used in the LEDWave Z-3 uses a plastic lens. So the Cabella's is a step up (glass)...maybe two (antireflection coating).



uz2busmc said:


> The tailcap I like, it is the protruding type. Once it is clicked on, it has sufficient ''play'' in the switch to do momentary on/off by keeping it slightly depressed for ''off''. It is a rather stout spring in there so extended periods with momentary on/off is a no go if you have week hands. I like fact that it is this way since it is the protruding type, don't have to worry as much about accidental on's.


This appears to be the same switch used in the LEDWave Z-3. The only way to go "full on" is to twist it. The push action is what I"d call a psuedo-momentary switch, since it relies on play instead of providing an actual humped momentary thingie to press.

By the way, my Digilight T9's positive-clickie tailcap has failed: It now works in momentary mode only. You can hear it click "On" and "Off," but it won't actually go into full-on; just momentary when pressed half-way. I'll be exchanging it under warranty.


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## uz2busmc (Feb 24, 2006)

Now, I think I'm confused. I think I must have said it wrong above. I guess the tailcap would be negative click type?? If you press it down, click - no light... let off, click - now there's (constant) light. Now if you press it in without actually clicking it, it will momentary off or stay off as long as you are willing to hold pressure on the button. There is no twisting for constant on.... just release. It should be the exact tailcap that you have on the t9.

On the package the T12 came in, it advertised the 227 or whatever lumens, but as advertised by cabelas magazine and website, it is advertised at 180 lumens for the t12. They might be stocking the recent version of the digilights at this point. I can't really say though, as I am still trying to figure out what everyone is saying about T12's and G&P 120's. I am assuming that the G&P and digilight are one and the same, but the 120 is the older version of the T12, correct??? The only diff that I can see with any of these lights is one says cabelas and the other - digilight.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 24, 2006)

uz2busmc said:


> Now, I think I'm confused. I think I must have said it wrong above. I guess the tailcap would be negative click type?? If you press it down, click - no light... let off, click - now there's (constant) light.


That's a "reverse clickie."



> Now if you press it in without actually clicking it, it will momentary off or stay off as long as you are willing to hold pressure on the button.


Hmmm. I've never seen a reverse clickie that allows momentary operation, and I don't understand how this can be. I thought that the whole idea of a reverse clickie is that contact isn't made till the spring pushes the switch away. That way, the light can't accidentally drain your cells by having something pressing against the switch.[/QUOTE]



> There is no twisting for constant on.... just release.


So it's not the switch from the LEDWave Z-3.


> It should be the exact tailcap that you have on the t9.


It doesn't sound like it. With the Digilight switch, press in a little, the light turns on momentarily. Press farther, the light clicks ON and stays on when you let go. Press again till it clicks, and the light turns OFF when you let go.



> I am assuming that the G&P and digilight are one and the same, but the 120 is the older version of the T12, correct???


No. The G120 is G&P's designation for any 12V xenon lamp assembly that the company makes. As CPFers have found, these 12V lamps are spec'd differently. It used to be only two varieties: regular and high-pressure, all mated to a sputtered stochastic-pattern reflector that virtually eliminates irregularities.

The high-pressure lamps produce a beam that is nearly pure white. What we're seeing now is a variety of high-pressure G120s...and G90s. They differ in output, they differ in efficiency. 

For the G120, I'd guess there are at least three levels of output (180, 200, and 227). The 227-lumen version is further split into a regular efficiency (1.5 amps) and more efficient (1.2 amps?). In each case (9V and 12V), Digilight is unequalled in absolute efficiency (current draw) and relative efficiency (lumens per amp). Other brands, such as Ultrafire, appear to equal Digilight in output (175 and 227 lumens); they just won't deliver those lumens as efficiently. 

Cabella's appears to be using derated versions of these lamps, which lets them buy and sell them at a lower cost. Either that, or they're more honest in their ratings and are selling the lamps at a smaller profit.


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## NeonLights (Feb 24, 2006)

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> That's a "reverse clickie."
> 
> Hmmm. I've never seen a reverse clickie that allows momentary operation, and I don't understand how this can be.........


I've got a number of reverse clickies that allow momentary operation, but it is momentary off when the light is turned on, not momentary on when the light is off. Hence the name reverse clickie.

-Keith


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## uz2busmc (Feb 25, 2006)

What Neon said is exactly how mine works, if it has not "clicked" the first time it will not light up. It will not turn on until the second ''click'' is made. Once it's on give it a slight press and it goes off until you release. 

I figured that cabela might have got a good deal from digilight with a bulk order, especially if digilight is fairly new. I don't know why they advertise lower lumens on the website than what is actually on the package. They might not want to compete to strongly against their own surefire lineup. I know that if I looked at a $50 flashlight w/227 lumens, I would have nearly no insentive to buy a sure fire with comparable output at more than 5x the cost... no what I mean??

Thanx for all the input Paul.


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## GadgetTravel (Feb 25, 2006)

I dont have experience with the Digilight but between the 9P and the Streamlight TL3 I think the TL3 wins pretty easily on throw. The TL3 is a real stunner for the price and size, and it runs fine on protected 17500 rechargeables.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 25, 2006)

Indeed, the only G&P lamp assembly that can equal, or slightly beat, the TL-3, is the G120 mounted in G&P's 39mm miniturbo reflector. 

I recently received the new 9V lamp assemblies from Wolf Eyes: the D26 (26mm reflector) and D36 (36mm reflector). The 9V D26 has characteristics similar to Digilight's 9V tactical lamp assembly, but with a slightly wider beam. The 9V D36 may outthrow the TL-3, suggesting that the 12V D36 would obliterate the TL-3 (but alas, can use only primary cells). I'll run controlled 9V and 3.7V tests in March.


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## uz2busmc (Feb 28, 2006)

Paul,

Do you think that you would be able to tell what light cabellas was selling if I post some pics of mine, assembled and disassembled?


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 28, 2006)

uz2busmc said:


> Paul,
> 
> Do you think that you would be able to tell what light cabellas was selling if I post some pics of mine, assembled and disassembled?


I think it's been fairly well established, hasn't it? The XPG line is simply the unmodified G&P T6, T9, and T12, right down to the twistie tailcap and plastic lens. (But one CPFer reports that the miniturbo head uses a glass lens.)


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## uz2busmc (Feb 28, 2006)

No. 

It doesn't have the twisty tailcap and it operates dif than what you reported about your T9. I don't quite know which head is considered the turbo head, but what ever head is the standard that comes with the light had a glass lens - on mine. And the package stated 227 lumens which is diff than what cabela has on their website. 

If I was certain they were derated G&P's then I would order the digi high pressure xenon, but I don't want to order something that I might already have.

Sorry about the hassle, I do appreciate the input though.

Also, I found cosmetic differences between the XPG and the G&P bodies.... however, the digi body and xpg seem to be the same. Given this plus the current tailcap offering from Digi, I believe the XPG is from Digi.


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## jabajet (Mar 1, 2006)

I'm getting ready to place an order for one of the Cabela's XPG 12-volt lights. Trying to decide if I should also get the "Extreme Performance Head" as well. Any comments - suggestions?


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Mar 1, 2006)

Do it. It's an outstanding value, complete with a lamp and reflector. You'll see a definite improvement in throw in the hot spot, though it's a rather narrow hot spot.

Even if you decide not to use it on the flashlight you're buying, you might decide to use it on a different G&P-made or Surefire body.


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## jabajet (Mar 1, 2006)

Which Surefire would the 12v head also work on? 



Paul_in_Maryland said:


> Do it. It's an outstanding value, complete with a lamp and reflector. You'll see a definite improvement in throw in the hot spot, though it's a rather narrow hot spot.
> 
> Even if you decide not to use it on the flashlight you're buying, you might decide to use it on a different G&P-made or Surefire body.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Mar 1, 2006)

jabajet said:


> Which Surefire would the 12v head also work on?


Any P or C body.


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## uz2busmc (Mar 1, 2006)

Plus, if you get it now, you'll save on shipping in case you decide that you do want it later.


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