# Where are SureFire Lights/Components Manufactured?



## dudemar (Jan 6, 2009)

...continued discussion from here:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/196545


So just where are SF lights manufactured? Most say the US, but SF manufactures to DOD standards, which are less stringent than FTC standards. The problem with discussing SF's method of manufacturing is they're _very_ tight-lipped about it. It's not so much what they've already told us, rather what they _haven't_ told us. If their components are all fabricated and manufactured in the good 'ol US of A, then why the complete lack of transparency?

SureFire obviously has nothing to lose... or do they? This leads me to believe SF has components imported from other companies. Could it be they are afraid of being sued themselves?

From a corporate/legal standpoint, I would have to say yes.


----------



## OCDGearhead (Jan 6, 2009)

Careful, you could get banned for such heresey.


----------



## Solscud007 (Jan 6, 2009)

I know of lights like the DARPA DEF lights, it was a collaboration. But they were all US companies. I dont know about the lamp assemblies, but the actual flashlights are made in Socal. However they might have a source for things like the clicky components.


----------



## RPM (Jan 6, 2009)

What secrecy? You can see from their website where corporate is located. I believe it's been there forever... One of my lights has that city engraved on it. I think it's pretty safe to say they manufacture at that facility and like many companies, sub some work out. It's only good business to buy what you can't make cheaper. If investing in the capital equipment makes sense, I'm sure they would do it. If a certain sub assembly part comes from offshore, so be it. I think that's fair. If they made everything "in house", that would be even more amazing to me!


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 6, 2009)

OCDGearhead said:


> Careful, you could get banned for such heresey.



He can't. 
You, on the other hand, walk on thin ice. Very thin ice.
bernie


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 6, 2009)

To my knowledge, they do all the machining and assambly as well as coatings in-house. It seems obvious that most of the LEDs are imported.

No idea about lenses and the TIRs, LAs and electronics.
They do design the electronics in-house though. 

bernie


----------



## 1996alnl (Jan 6, 2009)

Who cares?

It all comes from the same rock we call planet Earth.


----------



## sappyg (Jan 6, 2009)

hey dudemare,
it takes a village bro....


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 6, 2009)

1996alnl said:


> Who cares?
> 
> It all comes from the same rock we call planet Earth.




Well said and true. But experience in these halls tells us that the percentage of members who do care is quite high though. For whatever reasons.

bernie


----------



## Size15's (Jan 6, 2009)

If SureFire do as they have said they will and publish a huge spread about this in the 2009 catalog that will elaborate further then hopefully it will answer our questions.

To try to second guess their catalog publication on 15th January 2009 seems far too hasty and impatient.


----------



## dudemar (Jan 6, 2009)

sappyg said:


> hey dudemare,
> it takes a village bro....



True... but it also takes a village to have intellectually stimulating conversations!:naughty:


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 6, 2009)

I was just going back through the pages of the SF v PL thread and hit upon these two consecutive posts (#239 & #240) that really started my thinking about the whole USA made thing:



american lockpicker said:


> Dear Sir,
> SureFire Suppressors and Edged Weapons are made entirely in the USA, most SureFire flashlight components are made at our California factory, and all components are designed and assembled in the USA. As much as possible, SureFIre uses components made in the United States of America. You may be interested in knowing that our flashlights do fall within the Department of Defense’s qualifications for being of US origin, which are somewhat less restrictive than the FTC’s.
> 
> 
> ...





[email protected] said:


> Greg is dead on and there will also be a huge spread about this in the 2009 catalog that will elaborate further.....stand by



If, as Stuart says, "Greg is dead on" about his description of the production of SF lights, then I am expecting to see a total whitewash in the supposed "huge spread" in the 09 catalog. I would be surprised otherwise (and would admit to such).

I'm not sure, but the question that American Lockpicker _probably_ asked in his email was something along the lines of "Where are Surefire products/flashlights made?" and if the answer he received is indicative of the response that SF plans in it's upcoming catalog, expect to have more questions than real answers.


----------



## dano (Jan 6, 2009)

It's not some super-duper-secret. The charger components are made in China (and are marked as such). I have several lamp assemblies that are stamped made in Mexico (probably by Carley Lamps).

As was stated in another thread, SF has never implicitly stated that their products are 100% made in USA.

And I think threads like this seem a bit trollish and only lead to controversy in an arena that really isn't for public dissection.


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 6, 2009)

dano said:


> *It's not some super-duper-secret*...
> 
> ...only lead to controversy in an arena that* really isn't for public dissection*.



This is great. Really.

Ummm...:twothumbs


----------



## Size15's (Jan 6, 2009)

So I suppose the natural question resulting from Greg Lin's email is '_okay so which components aren't made in the USA?_'

Since SureFire do not make an unqualified Made in USA claim then this implies they feel they can't. This leads us to assume that components, significant in nature and cost to the overall operation and cost of the finished product are not of U.S. origin since components that comprise a negligible portion of the product’s total manufacturing costs and are insignificant parts of the final product can be of non-U.S. origin.

As far as we know, no high output LEDs are 100% made in the USA.
SSC Seoul Semiconductor are Korean.
Cree use a variety of factories both in the USA and Asia I believe.

We believe SureFire to source incandescent bulbs made to their exacting specifications from Carley which they mostly manufacture in Mexicali just over the boarder in Mexico rather than solely in Torrance, California which could not meet the quantities/speed of SureFire orders. 

Could it really be that simple? Without these components the product would not be operational in a pretty significant way!

SureFire normally have a section of their catalog dedicated to the details of the various components that they believe make their products special or better. I suggest that the 2009 catalog will expand on this to include information on where things are made.

Al


----------



## dudemar (Jan 6, 2009)

dano said:


> And I think threads like this seem a bit trollish and only lead to controversy in an arena that really isn't for public dissection.



Dano,

I can assure you that I'm not a troll, and never intended to start a thread in such a fashion. As Kiessling said in the other thread, we were more than welcome to continue this discussion in another thread, so...


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 6, 2009)

Size15's said:


> So I suppose the natural question resulting from Greg Lin's email is '_okay so which components aren't made in the USA?_'
> 
> ...
> 
> Since SureFire do not make an unqualified Made in USA claim then this implies they feel they can't.



Thanks for your answer. 

But yours is not the only question Mr Lin's email brings up. Mr Lin, as a SF rep in technical support,_ does_ make an unqualified statement as to SF flashlights being Made in the USA. He explicitly wrote that SF flashlights fall into the description of what the DoD considers to be of origin in the USA. This by itself is an implicit statement that the lights are Made in the USA is it not? If this is the case, why then _doesn't_ SF stamp the lights/packaging Made in the USA? Mr Lin must have felt it was important enough to make that distinction and that he was on solid ground to make the statement. 

So, according to the email, SF lights are of US orgin according to the DoD, but according to the FTC, they are not.

Perhaps it really _isn't_ that simple.:shrug:

The way I see it, either you are Made in the USA **and do all you can to show America that you producing one of the few products legitimately Made in the USA** or you are not Made in the USA **and stop implicitly implying that you are by saying such things as "designed" and "assembled," thereby making many believe that you really are Made in the USA.**

The more I read these two threads, the more I anticipate this "huge spread" coming in the new catalog.

**And I as well can assure you that I am no troll. I am just someone wanting some answers.**


----------



## dudemar (Jan 6, 2009)

wacbzz said:


> **And I as well can assure you that I am no troll. I am just someone wanting some answers.**



Me three.


----------



## Size15's (Jan 6, 2009)

I understand that SureFire needs their products to satisfy the DoD definition of Made in the USA so that it can bid for and be awarded contracts [with the Military and Government etc]
This is like SureFire ensuring it's products meet the applicable Mil-Specs.

Labelling "Made in the USA" is different and is aimed far more at the hearts of consumers. If you ask the consumer in the street what "Made in the USA" means to them I am sure they, like the FTC are very clear that this claim means "all or virtually all" - simple and honest.

I'm pretty sure it is not acceptable to the FTC for SureFire to qualify a "Made in the USA" claim with "according to DoD requirements".

To muddy the waters with a qualification that effectively increases the foreign content from the negligible is likely unacceptable because "DoD requirements" is not a common and widely understood term.
It could be interpreted by consumers as being _more onerous_ than the FTC definition rather than somewhat less restrictive!

In this situation it is better not to claim Made In the USA at all [especially in consumer-focused marketing and advertising].

Al


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 7, 2009)

Size15's said:


> Labelling "Made in the USA" is different and is aimed far more at the hearts of consumers. If you ask the consumer in the street what "Made in the USA" means to them I am sure they, like the FTC are very clear that this claim means "all or virtually all" - simple and honest.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



I understand and agree with what you are saying . But what you have written above is really the point that I am trying to make. You mention asking people on the street about the Made in the USA claim; this is what I am trying to say about letters like Mr Lin's. 

If one were to poll the average LEO, or military person carrying a SF flashlight, they would almost certainly tell you that it was made in the USA. Especially with the military, knowing that they buy primarily from US manufacturers, it is an easy mistake that is probably made all the time. 

If SF believes they cannot make an unqualified Made in the USA statement without invoking the DoD, why even put that out there at all ("qualifying" according to the DoD)?? That seems pretty deceptive to me...

Anther perfect example...I was gifted a brand new Magcharger for Christmas. All over the top of the bezel in big white bold lettering is _Ontario, CA USA_. Twice as a matter of fact. But on the body of the light, in small stamped letters that blend in with the black body, are the words _Patented in the U.S.A._ 

Now if I hand this light over to people that I work with in the car business that know nothing about Maglite and their business, where do you suppose they are going to tell me the light is made if I were to ask them??

It's that kind of deception - listing the place of business of the light maker on the light or using key words and phrases in emails to customers - that I find entirely bogus. 

Hopefully, the catalog will clear this up.


----------



## Sgt. LED (Jan 7, 2009)

Pluto I think.


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 7, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Pluto I think.



:twothumbs:laughing::twothumbs


----------



## Stillphoto (Jan 7, 2009)

Also, one needs no more than to visit the www.surefire.jobs website to look at the jobs they have available at their Fountain Valley CA facilities.

Personally I've visited the site many a time hoping to find something that I might be able to do there, only to find lots of 3rd shift (graveyard?) assembly jobs of circuitry and milling.


----------



## dudemar (Jan 7, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Pluto I think.



 Very funny.

I heard they're getting some competition from a company on Planet X, so...

Oh $#!7 wrong meeting, that was the meeting out by the docks.


----------



## Size15's (Jan 7, 2009)

wacbzz said:


> I understand and agree with what you are saying . But what you have written above is really the point that I am trying to make. You mention asking people on the street about the Made in the USA claim; this is what I am trying to say about letters like Mr Lin's.
> 
> If SF believes they cannot make an unqualified Made in the USA statement without invoking the DoD, why even put that out there at all ("qualifying" according to the DoD)?? That seems pretty deceptive to me...


So am I to take it that we, CPF members, interested in flashlights, are not interested nor capable of understanding something a bit complicated?
Greg Lin is not emailing the average LEO, or military person. The 'for your interest' comment about the DoD definition is not intended for them - it is intended for us!
Shirley we know that a flashlight containing a Cree or more obviously a SSC LED can not possibly be all or virtually all made in the USA because the LEDs aren't and that's a pretty important part not do be.
We also know that SureFire effectively have no realistic made in the USA alternative and that this likely results in the LED being exempt under the DoD definition.

I would rather know the reality and truth of this situation, even if it means making it complicated, technical and full of jargon. Rather that than not know because the simple, easy answer is basically not to answer the question or there abouts!

Al


----------



## 1996alnl (Jan 7, 2009)

Can't we (they) just replace the "Made" in the USA with "Assembled" in the USA?


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 7, 2009)

> If SF believes they cannot make an unqualified Made in the USA statement without invoking the DoD, why even put that out there at all ("qualifying" according to the DoD)?? That seems pretty deceptive to me...




They aren't putting it out there. You asked for it specifically. They gave you an answer to what stadnards they qualify and to what they don't. 

The deception lies in your argument quoted above as it implies a motivation on SF's part where none is expressed and as it implies those reading it are automatically not understanding it. You statement is a logical fallacy.

Why are we splitting words in this thread despite all of us know enough of "the truth" to get the picture? Is there a motivation different from "wanting to know" present? 

bernie


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 7, 2009)

Size15's said:


> So am I to take it that we, CPF members, interested in flashlights, are not interested nor capable of understanding something a bit complicated?
> Greg Lin is not emailing the average LEO, or military person. The 'for your interest' comment about the DoD definition is not intended for them - it is intended for us!



We don't actually know what the question was that American Lockpicker asked in his/her email. The original post that was attached with Mr Lin's email only stated this:



american lockpicker said:


> Earlier today I emailed Surefire about where they were made



As such, we also don't know if American Lockpicker disclosed that he/she was part of the CPF community. If this wasn't disclosed, then how would Mr Lin know that he was writing some email for "us" (ie, those that are more concerned/knowledgable with/about flashlights than the general public)?? He of course wouldn't, so to say that Mr Lin's email was for "us" is relying on an assumption about the exact nature of the original question. He would then be disclosing this DoD qualification to someone probably pretty unfamiliar to the depths of flashlights like some here are. 

Of course, all the above may be moot if American Lockpicker _did_ disclose that he/she was a CPF member, because it is based on an assumption as well.



Size15's said:


> Shirley...



"And don't call me Shirley." :laughing:



Size15's said:


> I would rather know the reality and truth of this situation, even if it means making it complicated, technical and full of jargon. Rather that than not know because the simple, easy answer is basically not to answer the question or there abouts!



I would rather know as well, but not in such a way as to obfuscate the questions even more. I, for one, don't find it all that wise to answer questions with answers that only forge more questions. That is not to say that they will do that in the coming catalog, but I'm not entirely convinced that they won't.



Kiessling said:


> They aren't putting it out there. You asked for it specifically. They gave you an answer to what stadnards they qualify and to what they don't.



I _didn't_ ask the question. Perhaps if I did, I wouldn't even be posting on this thread. 



Kiessling said:


> The deception lies in your argument quoted above as it implies a motivation on SF's part where none is expressed and as it implies those reading it are automatically not understanding it. You statement is a logical fallacy.



In order for my argument about people believing that SF flashlights are made in the USA to be a logical fallacy, something has to be false.So what part of what I wrote is false? Mr Lin's statement concerning the DoD qualification? True. The average Joe believing SF flashlights _are_ made in the USA? True. The US military buys from primarily US manufacturers? True. I don't understand what you think I have written is false...:shrug:



Kiessling said:


> Is there a motivation different from "wanting to know" present?



My motivation in not any different than just that. I stated as much in an above post.

**And just as an aside, I hope nobody is getting all worked up about this topic. I find it rather informative to see people's real thoughts about this Made in the USA subject. If this is the case, however, I will stop posting on this thread so as not to cause others to fret**


----------



## JNewell (Jan 7, 2009)

wacbzz said:


> Mr Lin, as a SF rep in technical support,_ does_ make an unqualified statement as to SF flashlights being Made in the USA. He explicitly wrote that SF flashlights fall into the description of what the DoD considers to be of origin in the USA. This by itself is an implicit statement that the lights are Made in the USA is it not?


 
No, it isn't. It is only what it is: a statement that SureFire lights meet the DoD standard for domestic-made. He explicitly states that they do _not_ meet the FTA standard. If anything, his message says the opposite of what you are trying to make it say.



wacbzz said:


> So, according to the email, SF lights are of US orgin according to the DoD, but according to the FTC, they are not.


 
That is what he said.



wacbzz said:


> Perhaps it really _isn't_ that simple.:shrug:
> 
> The way I see it, either you are Made in the USA **and do all you can to show America that you producing one of the few products legitimately Made in the USA** or you are not Made in the USA **and stop implicitly implying that you are by saying such things as "designed" and "assembled," thereby making many believe that you really are Made in the USA.


 
You are trying to play games with words, which is ironic, because that's what you're contending SureFire is doing. :thinking: You are putting words in the company's mouth, demanding that they use your framework. You had it right when you said that things aren't that simple.


----------



## american lockpicker (Jan 7, 2009)

wacbzz said:


> We don't actually know what the question was that American Lockpicker asked in his/her email. The original post that was attached with Mr Lin's email only stated this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
When I sent my Email I mentioned I owned a Surefire 6P and on the back on the flashlight it said "Surefire USA" does that mean its made in the USA? I never mentioned I was a member of CPF.


----------



## conan1911 (Jan 7, 2009)

Size15's said:


> Could it really be that simple? Without these components the product would not be operational in a pretty significant way!
> 
> Al



Occam's razor


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 7, 2009)

wacbzz said:


> I _didn't_ ask the question. Perhaps if I did, I wouldn't even be posting on this thread.



It is irrelevant if you or anybody else asked the question. You are misinterpreting and twisting the statement into what it is not by saying:



> If SF believes they cannot make an unqualified Made in the USA statement without invoking the DoD, why even put that out there at all ("qualifying" according to the DoD)?? That seems pretty deceptive to me...



And with your answer to me you do the same again. You are playing games with words, just like JNewell noted, too. This does not further knowledge or the content of this thread, but it raises unnecessary conflict. 





> In order for my argument about people believing that SF flashlights are made in the USA to be a logical fallacy, something has to be false.So what part of what I wrote is false? Mr Lin's statement concerning the DoD qualification? True. The average Joe believing SF flashlights _are_ made in the USA? True. The US military buys from primarily US manufacturers? True. I don't understand what you think I have written is false...:shrug:



Twisting again. It is a fallacy to imply motivations where non are displayed, to imply stupidity where non is apparent and to imply reasons where non are given. Like you did in the second quote above that provoked your response here.
Then this answer ... a fallacy again. You substitute one subject with another when making your retort. We weren't talking about people believing SF lights were made in the USA when I pointed out your arguments are a fallacy. 

Then ... the averyge Joe's belief's ... do you have data? If no .. assumptions presented as facts. Fallacy.

Then ... Mr. Lin's statement ... is his statement and has noting to do with you using fallacies in your argumentation. Again ... twisting words.

Then ... US military ... irrelevant. A red herring.

In the end ... hairsplitting without real content your reply is. Deceiving. Easy it si to succumb to the dark side of the force. 





> **And just as an aside, I hope nobody is getting all worked up about this topic. I find it rather informative to see people's real thoughts about this Made in the USA subject. If this is the case, however, I will stop posting on this thread so as not to cause others to fret**



It is not the topic that works people up. It is everything around the topic. Instead of stopping to post, adjusting your argumentation to something constructive instead of working people up would be even better :nana:

I think we'll manage to de-emotionalize this topic eventually. In 500 years or so 

bernie


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 7, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> I think we'll manage to de-emotionalize this topic eventually. In 500 years or so



I'm just trying to figure out how to bring all the Fenix people into this thread.:laughing:


----------



## JNewell (Jan 7, 2009)

[posted in wrong thread!]


----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm Sorry, that's *Classified.*


----------



## sappyg (Jan 7, 2009)

forgive me if this seems to stray off topic a bit but earlier i quiped "it takes a village bro"... that was a little tongue n' cheek but i did imply that we all live in a global economy.
i know the home we live in in the US was made in the USA but i also know that 80% of the workforce that built it are not naturalized citizens. S.... i'll wager that 80% of that group just may even have questionable work visas. the lumber came from canada, the bricks came from mexico and the drywall, lights and plumbing fixture came from china. 
knowing this fact (and it is), can anyone logically argue that that house was made in china? sure... components were made elsewhere but the home has become branded in essence "made in the USA". to suggest otherwise could prove a folly. indeed, what you are getting from SF, or most any other US company, is a product that is owned and controlled by a US company. this also implies US quality and expectation which i will grant you is, or has in the past, considered high.
re: mr. lin of SF, i can find no falsehood or missrepresentation in is statements. i think some of us may be looking very hard for something that is simply not there. i can't help but think that we are trying to make something out of nothing for whatever reason that can serve no purpose other than an excercise in banty. whether it's a rage against the machine or a crusade for jusice this smacks of an emotionally driven discussion that begs the question.
if made in the USA is such a big deal for us here then i challenge everyone here to TRY to only buy made in USA products. i mean every single part and piece. give up yet?.... how about now?.... no?...... how about now?.... ok... keep at it. 
me? i'm looking for the best flashlight i can afford and so are you. all things being equal, would you pay $10,000 dollars more for say a car from GM than you would for a toyota. if so then more power to you my friend because most americans would not. by the way... at least as many parts and pieces of the toyota are manufactured and assembled in the USA as cars produced by the big 3. 
give up yet?.... how about now?.... now?..... keep at it.


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 7, 2009)

While we're at it ...

I'd like to buy a flashlight that says

"Made on Earth"
"With the best materials we could find"
"Assambled by the best workers in existance"

I couldn't care less if it was made in USA or not. I am not American, after all. :nana:

bernie


----------



## sappyg (Jan 7, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> While we're at it ...
> 
> I'd like to buy a flashlight that says
> 
> ...


 
i think i know that flashlight..... i think it's called a sundrop or something like that.


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 7, 2009)

Very interesting...

http://www.madeinusa.org/nav.cgi?bo...ve&start=0&group=20&terms=flashlights&x=0&y=0

Now, which one of you was it that said that I had no "data" that people believed SF flashlights are made in the USA? I believe I was accused of presenting a fallacy by using assumptions presented as facts?:nana:

Look-I have no agenda here. Seriously. I have no idea what an "excercise in banty" even is so I'm definitely not trying to do that. I just believe that manufacturers use well placed jargon to make people believe anything they want them to. It happens all the time and I just cannot see why you guys think I'm so way out of line on this. 

Anyway, one final example. SappyG touch briefly on this. Today at work, I took a picture of a vehicle that is Made in the USA by proud members of the UAW. People see this vehicle out on the road and definitley say Made in the USA (sorry, no "data," just mucho personal experience in the car business). The buyers come into my office for financing every day and say how proud they are to buy something truly Made in the USA. So where did they get the idea that this car is Made in the USA?

Here is a picture of a portion of the sticker on the window (sorry about the poor picture-I only had my camera phone and then had to take a picture of it's screen to get this shot):







Now, you draw your own conclusions about if it's Made in the USA, but I know what I believe and I deal with it every day of my life. IMO, this vehicle is just a larger SF flashlight.

And really, one final note here...



sappyg said:


> if made in the USA is such a big deal for us here then i challenge everyone here to TRY to only buy made in USA products. i mean every single part and piece. give up yet?.... how about now?.... no?...... how about now?.... ok... keep at it.



Here's what I bought my niece for Christmas this year. Every single part and piece is Made in the USA. For years now, my sister has not allowed her kids to have toys that are not Made in the USA. At first, I scoffed and said good luck. It's hard sure, but it (stuff that is truly all Made in the USA) are definitely out there. Because that is what a lot of people are now demanding. And honestly I now applaud her and her husband for their efforts.


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 7, 2009)

Obviously those are single cases of blind "Made in USA" fanatics, they don't count :nana:




> I just believe that manufacturers use well placed jargon to make people believe anything they want them to.



Of course. That's their job since marketing took control of the world. It is our job to see through it, expose lies and accept where there are no lies.


bernie


----------



## Armed_Forces (Jan 8, 2009)

Never thought I'd say this! ..but "Made in USA" is just about done for. If given half a chance I always try to support my country but it seems my hard earned dollars always seem to go elsewhere. Lately I've been partial to things made in Glashütte and especially my newest bauble, it's made in Kalbe (an der Milde), so I guess I'm partial to "handgemacht in Deutschland". (at the moment!) :buddies:


----------



## nohcho (Jan 8, 2009)

I cannot believe how many SureFire apologists are on CPF


----------



## Size15's (Jan 8, 2009)

nohcho said:


> I cannot believe how many SureFire apologists are on CPF


Yeah I know. The percentage keeps falling each year... Sometimes I get the impression I'm the only carnivore in a group of vegetarians :candle:


----------



## american lockpicker (Jan 8, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> While we're at it ...
> 
> I'd like to buy a flashlight that says
> 
> ...


 

Bernie are there any flashlights that are made in Germany anymore?


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 8, 2009)

wacbzz said:


> I just believe that manufacturers use well placed jargon to make people believe anything they want them to.





Kiessling said:


> Of course. That's their job since marketing took control of the world.



But you still don't think placing _Surefire USA_ on the tailcap of the 6P is that same type of "well placed jargon" that gets those exact 6P owners to believe their SF is Made in the USA??:shrug:


----------



## nohcho (Jan 8, 2009)

I don't know about flashlights, but they do make some decent cars in Germany.


----------



## Size15's (Jan 8, 2009)

wacbzz said:


> But you still don't think placing _Surefire USA_ on the tailcap of the 6P is that same type of "well placed jargon" that gets those exact 6P owners to believe their SF is Made in the USA??:shrug:


*Brand names and trademarks*
_Ordinarily, the [Federal Trade] Commission will not consider a manufacturer or marketer’s use of an American brand name or trademark by itself as a U.S. origin claim. Similarly, the Commission is not likely to interpret the mere listing of a company’s U.S. address on a package label in a non-prominent way as a claim of U.S. origin.

Example: A product is manufactured abroad by a well-known U.S. company. The fact that the company is headquartered in the U.S. also is widely known. Company pamphlets for its foreign-made product prominently feature its brand name. Assuming that the brand name does not specifically denote U.S. origin (that is, the brand name is not "Made in America, Inc."), using the brand name by itself does not constitute a claim of U.S. origin._


----------



## Armed_Forces (Jan 8, 2009)

pfft, flashlights  Germans are much too busy with a higher order of pursuit...


----------



## zx7dave (Jan 8, 2009)

It doesn't matter where they are made as long as they continue to manufacturer the same quality of light. I would not stop buying Surefires if they happened to move thier corporate/production facility to England, Germany or Asia...a Surefire would still be a Surefire.
The whole "America made" term has changed a lot over the decades such as my Toyota Tundra fully made/assembled in Texas, or my neighbors "American made" truck being assembled in Canada...


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 8, 2009)

Size15's said:


> Yeah I know. The percentage keeps falling each year... Sometimes I get the impression I'm the only carnivore in a group of vegetarians :candle:









american lockpicker said:


> Bernie are there any flashlights that are made in Germany anymore?



I don't think so. There is the German Zweibrueder company making LED Lensers, but they have a huge facility in China, of course. Varta sure sells lights, but I'd bet my left hand that they just rebrand them.




wacbzz said:


> But you still don't think placing _Surefire USA_ on the tailcap of the 6P is that same type of "well placed jargon" that gets those exact 6P owners to believe their SF is Made in the USA??:shrug:



No. I expect a minimum intelligence from contemporary human beings. If they fall for this, they're simply not mentally equipped for this world.




zx7dave said:


> It doesn't matter where they are made as long as they continue to manufacturer the same quality of light. I would not stop buying Surefires if they happened to move thier corporate/production facility to England, Germany or Asia...a Surefire would still be a Surefire.
> The whole "America made" term has changed a lot over the decades such as my Toyota Tundra fully made/assembled in Texas, or my neighbors "American made" truck being assembled in Canada...



Yes. Agreed. QFT.

bernie


----------



## DM51 (Jan 8, 2009)

american lockpicker said:


> are there any flashlights that are made in Germany anymore?


Hartenberger make a very fine range of dive-lights.


----------



## Hitthespot (Jan 8, 2009)

american lockpicker said:


> Bernie are there any flashlights that are made in Germany anymore?


 
They need to keep concentrating on their watches, Cameras, Cars, and Binoculars, oh and what Binoculars they make. Although I'm not sure if the glass is still made for the binoculars and cameras in Germany anymore?
Love my Leica's.

Bill


----------



## manoloco (Jan 8, 2009)

zx7dave said:


> The whole "America made" term has changed a lot over the decades such as my Toyota Tundra fully made/assembled in Texas, or my neighbors "American made" truck being assembled in Canada...


 

This "American" term has always puzzled me, everyone use it talking about North Americans, to me America is north central and south, Canada is North America too, last time i checked America is the whole continent.

i couldnt care less about some "me too" discussion, its just the easyness of how its wrongfully used (even in the rest of the American continent), as if something so wrong and so obvious gets so traditional.


----------



## JNewell (Jan 8, 2009)

This thread got me a little curious so I dug through my box of old SureFire packaging. I didn't see anything on the boxes or in the literature that said where the products were made. I had been under the impression that products sold in the U.S. had to be labeled with the country of origin (and I understand that what that means is up for grabs here). Is this not a requirement, even if only by means of a $0.002 self-adhesive lable?

Edited to observe: research seems to indicate that that's a USDA requirement for food but not a general requirement for products of every sort. Oh well...


----------



## sappyg (Jan 8, 2009)

:thinking:


nohcho said:


> I don't know about flashlights, but they do make some decent cars in Germany.


 
agreed.... BMW also makes some decent cars in south carolina. one must assume with "german engineering" of course.:nana: 
to date i think BMW and it's subsequent suppliers have boosted the economy here to the tune of 8 billion dollars. that is a lot of workforce using american workers (note: these workers are not affiliated with the UAW), about 5,000 directly employed by BMW at the moment. 
ever heard of NAFTA.... you know.... the deal the US made with mexico and central america to export our textile jobs to them in hopes of developing their economies. funny but there was a german textile Co. here (kufners), that employed 38 workers.... after NAFTA it became cheaper to move the machinery to mexico and import the finished goods into the US. 
several issues arose from this that is worth note. yes, the product was still a kufner product no matter the point of origin. it also required 200 mexicans to produce the same quantity but not the quality of the 38 americans. lastly, and this is the kicker, my friend shows up for work one fine morning and there is hardly a worker in sight. he asked his mexican counterpart "where is the workers"..... the reply, they all went to america 
is a german car made in the US still a german car? :thinking:
i think what we are really discussing perhaps without knowing it is the 21 century marketing method buzzword "branding" .... made in the US is a brand... made in germany is a brand.... pepsi and coke is a brand... we associate and brand ourselves with "brands" and these brands in turn speak about us and who we are. 
when we think of surefire we probably "brand" it as made in the USA in some way or another. that is not why i dig SF and it is not why they are so successful IMHO (though it doesn't hurt either). for me it is the business model SF projects.... quality, dependability, realiable, rugged all come to mind without hesitation..... now this is odd.... i find that i tend to "brand" SF more with incan than LED. i know that i should'nt but i must admit that this is the case for me. all but one of my SF's are kickin' it with and incan LA. i could, over time, change my branding of SF but for that to happen i think SF will have to change this mentle brand that i have of it.... perhaps through "branding" and marketing.


----------



## JNewell (Jan 8, 2009)

In case anyone else is interested, I dug around in the attic and found some +10 year old SureFire packaging and literature. Not a trace of anything about where the lights are/were made. Plenty of of mentions of "21st Century lights...now!" which looks kind of cute ten years later.


----------



## zx7dave (Jan 8, 2009)

manoloco said:


> This "American" term has always puzzled me, everyone use it talking about North Americans, to me America is north central and south, Canada is North America too, last time i checked America is the whole continent.
> 
> i couldnt care less about some "me too" discussion, its just the easyness of how its wrongfully used (even in the rest of the American continent), as if something so wrong and so obvious gets so traditional.


So to be more specific I meant the 50 US states which is what I believe most consider when they make the statement "American Made". But Yes..America the continent is enclusive of a much larger area...


----------



## american lockpicker (Jan 8, 2009)

I remember once seeing a surefire package that said made in USA on it also a tail cap that said Surefire or Laser Products deutschland.


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 8, 2009)

Now you're pulling our legs, are you? "Surefire Deutschland" is like "Glashuette USA" or so 

"Made in USA" *could* be very possible in the pre-LED era though. Who knows? :shrug:

bernie


----------



## american lockpicker (Jan 8, 2009)

I seen it on ebay.de through a link I found on here last Nov/Dec.


----------



## manoloco (Jan 8, 2009)

zx7dave said:


> So to be more specific I meant the 50 US states which is what I believe most consider when they make the statement "American Made". But Yes..America the continent is enclusive of a much larger area...


 
true, most consider it that way, but that doesnt make it right, in fact statistically, the majority is not the best indicator of judgement.

think of it this way:
"most" still think earth is in no ecological, climatological, or contamination severe damage and danger, "most" think its one far away danger.

"most" still think populating earth irresponsibly is ok because there must be enough space.

i could go on and on, but this is just something im pointing out, i cannot see a logical way for someone to defend how that term is used.

to remain on topic, but in the same vein, i like Bernie´s point of view, would be great to see more often things made with the best parts of the world, not because it sounds nice, but because that would make a much better product. patriotism and every sentimentalism aside, that could cloud our judgement 

commercially, yes its very lucrative to put "made in U.S.A.", its a country that i think has great products and great labour, which is a guarantee by itself and a good reference for the origin of a product or service.

problem is it becomes something like the 80s with SONY, the brand became so acknowledged that everyone thought it made the best product in every category, which is of course a LIE, it has very good quality products in a lot of categories, but thats it.

brand loyalty is nonsense, its for the lazy mind and body, for the rest we have reviews and experiment ourselves.

That being said, i have yet to meet a surefire product that can truly dissapoint me. (alas, i only have 3 SF lights, and some parts)


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 8, 2009)

I think "brand loyalty" is a too much maligned phrase on CPF as it is used in a "fanboy"-sense and only in a derogatory fashion.

IMHO when you know a brand very well, you also know what to expect from new products. You can "trust them in advance" and rely on your personal experience with the brand to make a more educated buying decision. You know their style, their language and can translate the advertising better into a product than with an unknown brand. You are thus able to make a better buying desicion with less risk of error.

It becomes a negative scenario when dogma and blind following as well as agenda enter the room. 

bernie


----------



## manoloco (Jan 8, 2009)

could be..., it think i would prefer to say "brand standards" or something alike but you have a point there.


----------



## Size15's (Jan 8, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> Now you're pulling our legs, are you? "Surefire Deutschland" is like "Glashuette USA" or so
> 
> bernie


I'm pretty sure I've seen SureFire TailCaps with CH for Switzerland.
Most likely it's the country distributor wanting to make SureFire's from them more attractive to their countrymen or something.

Al


----------



## boosterboy (Jan 9, 2009)

in the global economy, i don't care where things are made, as long as it's made correctly and warrantied, i'm fine.

i see too many self-proclaimed computer experts who have this impression that electronics made overseas are somehow inferior...

i run a lot of SF stuff on my gear , but i still keep an open mind for other brands. 

it takes half a brain and some common sense to judge quality, not blind faith to laser etched logo or a roll mark.


----------



## Monocrom (Jan 9, 2009)

boosterboy said:


> in the global economy, i don't care where things are made, as long as it's made correctly and warrantied, i'm fine.


 
A couple of things though....

The only thing that has changed about the World's economy is the speed with which products get to consumers. Even thousands of years ago, folks could still get products from half-way around the planet. It just took considerably longer. Also, for some bizarre reason, it's now called a global economy. Hell, I live on planet, not a globe. A huge planet where some folks like to rip off consumers with well-made knock-offs. (Sometimes not so well-made). There was a huge rumor on CPF about a certain well-known dealer peddling possibly fake Tiablo A9 models.... Then someone who very recently joined our community, bought about 6 of them. And each had the same individualized serial number. Ooops!

Also, where something is made can indeed play a *HUGE* part regarding whether it's made correctly. How many CPFers are going to buy several cases of dirt cheap, Made in China, Primary CR123 cells off eBay; to use in their multi-cell lights? I'd wager, very few indeed. No one wants to take a chance on their favorite light possibly exploding like a pipe-bomb. 

BatteryStation CR123 cells are now Made in America. They used to be Made in China. (Yup, a customer's flashlight went "boom," and many of us got to read about it on CPF).

Not every nation will give you what you want, and make it properly. I'm not picking on China specifically. (They do indeed make some quality products).

A few months ago, there were tainted tomatoes coming into America. People got so ill, that even fast-food places stopped serving tomatoes with their burgers. The culprit?.... A certain nation that was importing the tomatoes into America.... A nation that doesn't even come close to having the type of protections in place that America has, with regards to agricultural practices. A nation where they use human "fertilizer" to grow crops. And if someone has a disease when they go out into a field to "fertilize" the tomatoes, well; turns out that disease ends up in the tomatoes. And then ends up in the people who eat them. 

You should definitely care where certain things are made.


----------



## dudemar (Jan 9, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> A couple of things though....
> 
> A nation where they use human "fertilizer" to grow crops. And if someone has a disease when they go out into a field to "fertilize" the tomatoes, well; turns out that disease ends up in the tomatoes. And then ends up in the people who eat them.
> 
> You should definitely care where certain things are made.



I think it's safe to say a product is fine until the "fertilizer" hits the fan.:green:


----------



## Tempest UK (Jan 9, 2009)

Size15's said:


> I'm pretty sure I've seen SureFire TailCaps with CH for Switzerland.
> Most likely it's the country distributor wanting to make SureFire's from them more attractive to their countrymen or something.
> 
> Al




Yup, I have a 6Z on which the tailcap is marked "LASER PRODUCTS SWITZERLAND SURE-FIRE 6Z-CH".

I can't say that looking at that label has ever led me to conclude that it was made in Switzerland. Nor has "SureFire USA" equated to "Made in the USA" to me. 

Regards,
Tempest


----------



## Size15's (Jan 9, 2009)

Tempest UK said:


> Yup, I have a 6Z on which the tailcap is marked "LASER PRODUCTS SWITZERLAND SURE-FIRE 6Z-CH".
> 
> I can't say that looking at that label has ever led me to conclude that it was made in Switzerland. Nor has "SureFire USA" equated to "Made in the USA" to me.
> 
> ...


The Swiss-made SureFires keep better runtime.


----------



## Hitthespot (Jan 9, 2009)

Size15's said:


> The Swiss-made SureFires keep better runtime.


----------



## Tempest UK (Jan 9, 2009)

Size15's said:


> The Swiss-made SureFires keep better runtime.





A "Swiss made" SureFire certainly sounds good.

Regards,
Tempest


----------



## greenLED (Jan 9, 2009)

Size15's said:


> The Swiss-made SureFires keep better runtime.


Swiss Army Flashlight?


----------



## dudemar (Jan 9, 2009)

greenLED said:


> Swiss Army Flashlight?



Pila flashlights are Swiss designed.


----------



## Size15's (Jan 9, 2009)

Don't Inova have the contract to make branded Swiss Army lights?


----------



## JNewell (Jan 10, 2009)

Amen to that.

The issues you highlight below may be why the only law I found requiring country of origin labeling (COOL) applied to food.



Monocrom said:


> A couple of things though....
> 
> A few months ago, there were tainted tomatoes coming into America. People got so ill, that even fast-food places stopped serving tomatoes with their burgers. The culprit?.... A certain nation that was importing the tomatoes into America.... A nation that doesn't even come close to having the type of protections in place that America has, with regards to agricultural practices. A nation where they use human "fertilizer" to grow crops. And if someone has a disease when they go out into a field to "fertilize" the tomatoes, well; turns out that disease ends up in the tomatoes. And then ends up in the people who eat them.
> 
> You should definitely care where certain things are made.


----------



## american lockpicker (Jan 10, 2009)

Tempest UK said:


> A "Swiss made" SureFire certainly sounds good.
> 
> Regards,
> Tempest


 Are there any Swiss made flashlights other than the ones on SAKs?


----------



## Size15's (Jan 10, 2009)

american lockpicker said:


> Are there any Swiss made flashlights other than the ones on SAKs?


I thought I heard somewhere that the LED lights integrated with actual Swiss Army Knives were OEM from Photon... ??


----------



## american lockpicker (Jan 10, 2009)

Wenger uses Photon parts and Victorinox uses Inova parts I believe.


----------



## Big_Ed (Jan 10, 2009)

american lockpicker said:


> Are there any Swiss made flashlights other than the ones on SAKs?



I seem to remember there was a keychain light made in Switzerland that was recharged by a solar panel on the side. It was a few years ago that I thought I read of this light here on CPF. I can't recall the name, though.


----------



## Flying Turtle (Jan 10, 2009)

You're right, Ed. I remembered it, too, and went the "the source", Craig's LED Museum. It's called the Free Light. Tempting, but I seem to recall them having some glitches. Craig's latest review speaks of it not holding a charge very well and the LED is not well protected.

Geoff


----------



## Federal LG (Jan 11, 2009)

WHAT? 
Surefire lights are not entirely made in USA??
Man... I´ll never gonna buy another SF light again! 

Just kidding... 

C´mon, does it really matters? I mean, there is a lot of excelent lights "not made in USA" around here. Nowadays, I think it´s difficult to find a 100% pure national electronic product. Everything has a tiny piece inside that was built in another country...

In time, I wish there is a top notch german LED tactical flashlight manufacturer. I mean... a country that has factories like Black und Decker, Heckler und Koch, Porsche, BMW, Audi, Mercedez, Walther, Volkswagen, Schneider Kreuznach, Henckels... surely can shake the LED light world industry! German industries kicks ***!


----------



## Size15's (Jan 11, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> In time, I wish there is a top notch german LED tactical flashlight manufacturer. I mean... a country that has factories like Black und Decker, Heckler und Koch, Porsche, BMW, Audi, Mercedez, Walther, Volkswagen, Schneider Kreuznach, Henckels... surely can shake the LED light world industry! German industries kicks ***!


They would not be able call the flashlight "made in Germany" because just like SureFire they would be using Cree or SSC LEDs.


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 11, 2009)

Osram Al


----------



## boosterboy (Jan 11, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> A couple of things though....
> 
> The only thing that has changed about the World's economy is the speed with which products get to consumers. Even thousands of years ago, folks could still get products from half-way around the planet. It just took considerably longer. Also, for some bizarre reason, it's now called a global economy. Hell, I live on planet, not a globe. A huge planet where some folks like to rip off consumers with well-made knock-offs. (Sometimes not so well-made). There was a huge rumor on CPF about a certain well-known dealer peddling possibly fake Tiablo A9 models.... Then someone who very recently joined our community, bought about 6 of them. And each had the same individualized serial number. Ooops!
> 
> ...




I'm not implying that origin of product doesn't matter. What i mean is, some components of a product needs to be made in a place with real QC standards.

More critical parts that require higher degree of QC need to be made in a place that can maintain those standards.

Minor parts don't need to be.


----------



## Size15's (Jan 11, 2009)

boosterboy said:


> I'm not implying that origin of product doesn't matter. What i mean is, some components of a product needs to be made in a place with real QC standards.
> 
> More critical parts that require higher degree of QC need to be made in a place that can maintain those standards.
> 
> Minor parts don't need to be.


Just as well it's only the LEDs that aren't made in the USA then isn't it.


----------



## Federal LG (Jan 11, 2009)

Size15's said:


> They would not be able call the flashlight "made in Germany" because just like SureFire they would be using Cree or SSC LEDs.



Are you trying to say that Surefire lies when they print "Made in USA" in their flashlights, then ?


----------



## Size15's (Jan 11, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> Are you trying to say that Surefire lies when they print "Made in USA" in their flashlights, then ?


SureFire aren't because they don't.


----------



## sappyg (Jan 11, 2009)

Size15's said:


> Just as well it's only the LEDs that aren't made in the USA then isn't it.


----------



## Federal LG (Jan 11, 2009)

Size15's said:


> SureFire aren't because they don't.



Wow! You´re right! 
I really thought that they print "made in USA" somewhere...

I guess I was mistaken because I read several times here in CPF guys that only buy SF lights because it´s "made in USA" lights.

Maybe they´re just fooling themselves, then... :shrug:


----------



## Size15's (Jan 11, 2009)

I think it's really quite simple: If a component vital to the construction and/or operation of the product, such as a flashlight's LED is not made in the USA even if the rest of the flashlight is then the FTC 'rules' do not allow the manufacturer to state 'Made in the USA'.


----------



## Monocrom (Jan 11, 2009)

boosterboy said:


> I'm not implying that origin of product doesn't matter. What i mean is, some components of a product needs to be made in a place with real QC standards.
> 
> More critical parts that require higher degree of QC need to be made in a place that can maintain those standards.
> 
> Minor parts don't need to be.


 
They don't ??

If you're in the military or on a SWAT team, and a minor part on your duty-light fails; you could likely end up dead. Or perhaps you have a different job in which reliable illumination is critical. Failure of a minor part means the light might not work when needed. 

I want every part of my light to be built with high QC standards. And, I'm willing to pay a premium for that.


----------



## KDOG3 (Jan 11, 2009)

Its a legitimate question. I'm assuming that a good portion of the electronic components in their lights are imported - I've long figured that. I just hope that as much of their product line that can be made domestically is made domestically.


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 11, 2009)

Size15's said:


> I think it's really quite simple: If a component vital to the construction and/or operation of the product, such as a flashlight's LED is not made in the USA even if the rest of the flashlight is then the FTC 'rules' do not allow the manufacturer to state 'Made in the USA'.



How then does one reconcile this? And this? Seriously though, do I have a misunderstanding of where the Nichia LED's and various other LED's are made or is there some loophole in the FTC's requirements that doesn't qualify the LED bulb itself to be a component "vital to the operation of the product?"

Just what am I missing?


----------



## Size15's (Jan 12, 2009)

wacbzz said:


> How then does one reconcile this? And this? Seriously though, do I have a misunderstanding of where the Nichia LED's and various other LED's are made or is there some loophole in the FTC's requirements that doesn't qualify the LED bulb itself to be a component "vital to the operation of the product?"
> 
> Just what am I missing?


Well Arc got themselves into one legal mess - who is to say they wouldn't have got themselves into another if they trod on any other flashlight manufacturer's toes?

And Tektite state "(bulbs come from overseas)". Has their claim of Made in the USA been challenged to see whether this qualified claim and how they ensure it is understood is sufficient? If they've not trod on any other flashlight manufacturer's toes that is willing to spend the money to challenge them...


----------



## bagman (Jan 12, 2009)

Size15's said:


> Yeah I know. The percentage keeps falling each year... Sometimes I get the impression I'm the only carnivore in a group of vegetarians :candle:




Nice one Al, sounds like you wont be going hungry though


----------



## nohcho (Jan 12, 2009)

I don't know where other components are made, but R30 assembly from my 3P is made in Mexico.


----------



## n4zov (Jan 12, 2009)

Here's what the Federal Trade Commission says about labeling products as "Made in the USA:" 

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm


----------



## Size15's (Jan 12, 2009)

nohcho said:


> I don't know where other components are made, but R30 assembly from my 3P is made in Mexico.


The Lamp Assembly components (reflector, spring contacts etc) are made in the USA. The bulb and final focusing/assembly is performed by Carley in their Plant just over the border.
Some Lamps Assemblies are sent back to SureFire to complete the assembly there after Carley add the bulb.


----------



## Monocrom (Jan 12, 2009)

Size15's said:


> The Lamp Assembly components (reflector, spring contacts etc) are made in the USA. The bulb and final focusing/assembly is performed by Carley in their Plant just over the border.
> Some Lamps Assemblies are sent back to SureFire to complete the assembly there after Carley add the bulb.


 


I might be wrong, but I'm thinking it would be more cost-effective to have the entire lamp assembly made in one place. :thinking:


----------



## Size15's (Jan 12, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> I might be wrong, but I'm thinking it would be more cost-effective to have the entire lamp assembly made in one place. :thinking:


The trouble is that SureFire don't make their own bulbs so they have to subcontract it out to a company that can bulbs to SureFire's specifications, and to pot and focus them (in the case of the MN reflectorless type).
I understand that if the SureFire Lamp Assembly doesn't have "Made in Mexico" stamped on it then the only part Carley do is pot the bulb in and focus.
The P60-type Lamp Assemblies return to SureFire for SureFire to add the reflector and focus the beam.
Regardless of which company completes the final assembly, the components are supplied by SureFire, either manufactured themselves or subcontracted from US suppliers.

Al


----------



## Monocrom (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks for the response, Al.


----------



## Armed_Forces (Jan 13, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> I might be wrong, but I'm thinking it would be more cost-effective to have the entire lamp assembly made in one place. :thinking:




Not when you factor in the cost of _Pesos_ compared to U.S. Dollars! sheesh.


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 13, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> I might be wrong, but I'm thinking it would be more cost-effective to have the entire lamp assembly made in one place. :thinking:




That is something about the world's now global economy that I really do not understand. The enormous shipping and re-shipping and re-locating of goods on the whole globe ... and still being cheaper than making it in one place or right next door. :shrug:


----------



## Armed_Forces (Jan 13, 2009)

Bernie, you, of all people, should realize that when the cost of labor is so *drastically* different between nations, that the shipping is but a small pittance in the grand scheme of things. 

Have you ever visited a major port? 

Here's a couple shots from Hong Kong to put things in perspective...








I'm sure my shipment from DX is in there somewhere!!!!! 





​
Anyone who hasn't seen a port in person really should! 
It will leave you speechless when you think of all the implications and the economy of scale involved in our modern world.


When I last visited the UAE they were working on a new port.
You can read about it or invest(!) HERE. 

..and here's a shot of what it will look like when it's finished.





​
..I don't think the way we do business will be changing anytime soon!

Shalom/Salaam 'Alaykum


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 13, 2009)

Possible. But while of course there is an explanation - money - it still *feels* not logical. But oh well ... this is why we have experts 


It is almost SHOT. So we almost know the answers so many seek 

bernie


----------



## Tempest UK (Jan 13, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> It is almost SHOT. So we almost know the answers so many seek
> 
> bernie



Whatever happens at SHOT, I'm sure it will just generate more questions 

Regards,
Tempest


----------



## baterija (Jan 13, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> That is something about the world's now global economy that I really do not understand. The enormous shipping and re-shipping and re-locating of goods on the whole globe ... and still being cheaper than making it in one place or right next door. :shrug:



A couple points that at least bring it into making sense for some things:
- Sometimes there are economies of scale that allow one company to make something cheaper than 300 companies all making smaller amounts of the same things on separate lines.
- Resources aren't equally distributed. Not every flashlight company can be located next to a convenient strip mine for bauxite to be made into aluminum. Sometimes shipping processed materials or completed parts is cheaper and easier than shipping raw resources.
- Specialization allows competitive advantage. How many flashlight companies could make LED's cheaper and better than the major suppliers of LED's.

Why are you outsourcing flashlight production to SF 9 times zones away instead of making all your own lights at home from materials found locally?


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 13, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> It is almost SHOT. So we almost know the answers so many seek
> 
> bernie



I sure hope that somebody will take pictures of the important pages and load them up here on CPF for those of us that cannot seem to ever get a hold of that "holy grail" called the SF catalog.


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 13, 2009)

baterija said:


> A couple points that at least bring it into making sense for some things:
> - Sometimes there are economies of scale that allow one company to make something cheaper than 300 companies all making smaller amounts of the same things on separate lines.
> - Resources aren't equally distributed. Not every flashlight company can be located next to a convenient strip mine for bauxite to be made into aluminum. Sometimes shipping processed materials or completed parts is cheaper and easier than shipping raw resources.
> - Specialization allows competitive advantage. How many flashlight companies could make LED's cheaper and better than the major suppliers of LED's.
> ...




I guess it boils down to transport being cheaper than qualified labour. Factor in strange duties and custom fees and bizarre regulations, and you have re-imported items that are cheaper than buying them next door from the same producer. But that might be a EU thing 
In the end, it is an "economy" thing. Not my world.

bernie


----------



## JNewell (Jan 13, 2009)

But hopefully not threads about new products that are still going a year later with no product in sight, like the Invictus, the Optim-whateveritwas and the P61L??? :sigh:



Tempest UK said:


> Whatever happens at SHOT, I'm sure it will just generate more questions
> 
> Regards,
> Tempest


----------



## JNewell (Jan 13, 2009)

The illustration of this that amazed me was the lead children's jewelry. That stuff started out as solder on PC boards in the US and elsewhere, was shipped in bulk as salvage to China where it was removed from the PC boards, then "manufactured" into the toy product, packaged and shipped back across the ocean. It amazed me that you could send so little so far so many times and sell it for so little at the end of the cycle and still make money for everyone along the way.



Kiessling said:


> Possible. But while of course there is an explanation - money - it still *feels* not logical. But oh well ... this is why we have experts
> 
> 
> It is almost SHOT. So we almost know the answers so many seek
> ...


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 14, 2009)

Federal (US) government FAR (Federal Acquisition Regulations) define "Country of Origin" in 2 main ways, under 2 different federal laws (this is a VERY simplified version):

1. If a Federal acquisition is under $100,000, the "Country of Origin" is deemed to be the country where the final point of assembly, or where the product was "substantially transformed", takes place. Packaging does not qualify. This is the "Buy American Act" law.

2. If a Federal acquisition is Over $100,000, the "Country of Origin" is deemed to be the country where "more than 50%" of the bill of materials (component) costs originate. This excludes labor costs. This is the "Berry Amendment" law.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 14, 2009)

Size15's said:


> ...And Tektite state "(bulbs come from overseas)". Has their claim of Made in the USA been challenged to see whether this qualified claim and how they ensure it is understood is sufficient? If they've not trod on any other flashlight manufacturer's toes that is willing to spend the money to challenge them...



You missed another page- "Tektite only uses premium LEDs from the world's elite manufacturers - such as Nichia, Lumileds (Luxeon) and Cree. Our specially selected white LEDs produce a soft, cool white light that delivers unmatched color rendition. In addition to white LEDs, Tektite also stocks green, blue, and flashlights with UV LEDs."

Currently our main LEDs come from Cree, and are of US origin. Luxeon LEDs are not considered US made, even though the die are produced in the US. Xenon bulbs originate from a variety of sources overseas, but are purchased from US companies.

As far as US content is concerned, see FAR comment above.


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 14, 2009)

Thank you Scott for your clarification of this as far as Tektite is concerned and thanks also for not making us wait for a catalog to come out at some point in the future _to do just that_.:twothumbs

Now I just have to determine if I want that Expedition Star or the Pelican 2410 Nemo...:shrug:


----------



## fareast (Jan 14, 2009)

sappyg said:


> forgive me if this seems to stray off topic a bit but earlier i quiped "it takes a village bro"... that was a little tongue n' cheek but i did imply that we all live in a global economy.
> i know the home we live in in the US was made in the USA but i also know that 80% of the workforce that built it are not naturalized citizens. S.... i'll wager that 80% of that group just may even have questionable work visas. the lumber came from canada, the bricks came from mexico and the drywall, lights and plumbing fixture came from china.
> knowing this fact (and it is), can anyone logically argue that that house was made in china? sure... components were made elsewhere but the home has become branded in essence "made in the USA". to suggest otherwise could prove a folly. indeed, what you are getting from SF, or most any other US company, is a product that is owned and controlled by a US company. this also implies US quality and expectation which i will grant you is, or has in the past, considered high.
> re: mr. lin of SF, i can find no falsehood or missrepresentation in is statements. i think some of us may be looking very hard for something that is simply not there. i can't help but think that we are trying to make something out of nothing for whatever reason that can serve no purpose other than an excercise in banty. whether it's a rage against the machine or a crusade for jusice this smacks of an emotionally driven discussion that begs the question.
> ...




I agree fully. I know it means a lot when a certain product has a stamp "Made in the USA" on it, or any other country (i.e "Made in Germany") and I like it also but nowadays it is very hard to make this statement for mass produced products. The more (electronic) parts any product has, the more one needs to go across the border to find the best prices/quality nowadays. I find it a bit difficult to explain but let me try with examples. How American is a Cadillac nowadays? Or how german is a BMW? Or how American is my MacBook? What I am trying to say is our world has become so small, we now can find the best parts we need for our poducts, all over the world, which we do..., and enjoy using the product itself without thinking about where it was being made. 

I hope I am not putting people off here, I am just trying to convey my opinion.


----------



## fareast (Jan 14, 2009)

american lockpicker said:


> Bernie are there any flashlights that are made in Germany anymore?




Guess what, My MagCharger's power adapter (original) is Made in Germany!:twothumbs


----------



## Size15's (Jan 14, 2009)

Sc[email protected] said:


> You missed another page- "Tektite only uses premium LEDs from the world's elite manufacturers - such as Nichia, Lumileds (Luxeon) and Cree. Our specially selected white LEDs produce a soft, cool white light that delivers unmatched color rendition. In addition to white LEDs, Tektite also stocks green, blue, and flashlights with UV LEDs."
> 
> Currently our main LEDs come from Cree, and are of US origin. Luxeon LEDs are not considered US made, even though the die are produced in the US. Xenon bulbs originate from a variety of sources overseas, but are purchased from US companies.
> 
> As far as US content is concerned, see FAR comment above.


Thanks for sharing the details with us. I believe we all agree it is better when manufacturers are as open and honest about this sort of thing as reasonably practicable.

When a component is used because it is the best component for the product, and when cost is not the primary factor in sourcing it I believe it is advantageous to source from the world's elite rather than constrain sourcing to a specific country and having to compromise the product in order to do so.

Al


----------



## JNewell (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks, that's very (pardon the pun) illuminating. I had no idea how complicated this apparently simple issue was before this thread.



[email protected] said:


> Federal (US) government FAR (Federal Acquisition Regulations) define "Country of Origin" in 2 main ways, under 2 different federal laws (this is a VERY simplified version):
> 
> 1. If a Federal acquisition is under $100,000, the "Country of Origin" is deemed to be the country where the final point of assembly, or where the product was "substantially transformed", takes place. Packaging does not qualify. This is the "Buy American Act" law.
> 
> 2. If a Federal acquisition is Over $100,000, the "Country of Origin" is deemed to be the country where "more than 50%" of the bill of materials (component) costs originate. This excludes labor costs. This is the "Berry Amendment" law.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 14, 2009)

wacbzz said:


> Thank you Scott for your clarification of this as far as Tektite is concerned and thanks also for not making us wait for a catalog to come out at some point in the future _to do just that_.:twothumbs
> 
> Now I just have to determine if I want that Expedition Star or the Pelican 2410 Nemo...:shrug:



New Cree in the Expedition Star...


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 14, 2009)

Size15's said:


> Thanks for sharing the details with us. I believe we all agree it is better when manufacturers are as open and honest about this sort of thing as reasonably practicable.
> When a component is used because it is the best component for the product, and when cost is not the primary factor in sourcing it I believe it is advantageous to source from the world's elite rather than constrain sourcing to a specific country and having to compromise the product in order to do so.Al



We used to buy Carley lamps (our models were made in Hong Kong), then from a US manufacturer, who then moved to Hong Kong. I think the only subminiature lamp manufacturer in the US is Welch-Allyn, and I'm not too certain of their assembly points...


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 14, 2009)

JNewell said:


> Thanks, that's very (pardon the pun) illuminating. I had no idea how complicated this apparently simple issue was before this thread.



I attended a Defense Supply conference on this subject; 5 federal lawyers were on one panel. I asked them to define "Made in USA" in order to comply with the FAR's. Not one straight answer in the bunch. It was comical listening to their verbal acrobatics. The simplification of the FAR above is only a paraphrase, and there are actually about 5 different "Country of Origin" laws or regs., any or all of which may apply on a specific contract, depending on which clauses the contracting officer chooses to include. If you suffer from insomnia, try reading through these; zzzzzzzzz.

Their own lawyers can't tell you if you're in compliance, just that you can be thrown in Federal prison if you're not. Sheeesh, no wonder I'm prematurely grey...move over Bernie...


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 14, 2009)

So now that we know some people have access to the new SF catalog from this thread, where is this "huge write up" about SF product origins that has been posted so much about here?


----------



## Size15's (Jan 15, 2009)

wacbzz said:


> So now that we know some people have access to the new SF catalog from this thread, where is this "huge write up" about SF product origins that has been posted so much about here?


Seems like the editor's knife cut it in order to be able to show off more new products.


----------



## Armed_Forces (Jan 15, 2009)

Size15's said:


> Seems like the editor's knife cut it in order to be able to show off the possibility of more new products.



*fixed*

hmmm...Convenient, _veeerry convenient..._ :tinfoil:


----------



## dudemar (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm not very surprised by this.


----------



## Size15's (Jan 15, 2009)

There will hopefully be other opportunities to publish/provide the information/article.


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 15, 2009)

Size15's said:


> Seems like the editor's knife cut it in order to be able to show off more new products.



Really? No joke?

I think you're just pulling my leg, especially in light of how much both you and Stuart hyped up the "huge spread."

Seriously?


----------



## Size15's (Jan 15, 2009)

wacbzz said:


> Really? No joke?
> 
> I think you're just pulling my leg, especially in light of how much both you and Stuart hyped up the "huge spread."
> 
> Seriously?


I'm serious. SureFire weren't able to include several articles in their catalog and this was one of them.
I'm certain that Stuart did not intended to mislead us and is annoyed just like us. I'm sure if it is possible for the article to be published or shared with us in a different way Stuart will post to let us know.


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 15, 2009)

Size15's said:


> I'm serious. SureFire weren't able to include several articles in their catalog and this was one of them.
> I'm certain that Stuart did not intended to mislead us and is annoyed just like us. I'm sure if it is possible for the article to be published or shared with us in a different way Stuart will post to let us know.



Well...I was going to post about how it figures that such an important article to a lot of people _didn't_ get printed, but now I'm just going to say that I'm pretty disappointed. 

After all the "huge spread" hype and the throwing of things out there like "Occam's razor" and such, and especially how Scott from Tektite laid their position out without telling us to wait for a catalog, it seems to me that SF has left its wondering customers out in the dark. 

But I guess there are more important things on the minds of the SF people than setting the record straight about where exactly the parts for their lights are coming from and just why they don't use the term Made in the USA. You know, really _important_ things like showing "potential" lights and taking away others that were in the 2008 catalog and whatnot...

Really, I'm disappointed and I sure hope others are as well.

The words of Saint Bernard of Clairvaux and John Ray really come to mind here.


----------



## Size15's (Jan 15, 2009)

Something would be wrong with the universe if SureFire didn't manage to upset, annoy or disappoint CPF members. At least they are consistent.


----------



## JNewell (Jan 15, 2009)

Honestly, I don't see too many people getting worked up about "setting the record straight about where exactly the parts for their lights are coming from." 



wacbzz said:


> Well...I was going to post about how it figures that such an important article to a lot of people _didn't_ get printed, but now I'm just going to say that I'm pretty disappointed.
> 
> After all the "huge spread" hype and the throwing of things out there like "Occam's razor" and such, and especially how Scott from Tektite laid their position out without telling us to wait for a catalog, it seems to me that SF has left its wondering customers out in the dark.
> 
> ...


----------



## wacbzz (Jan 15, 2009)

Here's the funniest/strangest part for me personally. Publishers have deadlines for producing products like catalogs. In order for the SF catalog to be printed for distribution at the SHOT show, one wonders when exactly the editors put the "kill" on the "huge spread" to get it published on time to take to the show. We on CPF were led to believe here that on the 15th of December, this spread would be in the catalog. :ironic:

Anyway, now that we know this is not going to happen, perhaps we can hope that the actual "huge spread" may be posted on the SF website. If other light manufacturers can do such, and if SF thought it was important enough to _almost_ put the article in the catalog, they should post it ASAP under their _Articles_ section.


----------



## JNewell (Jan 15, 2009)

Actually, the thing that puzzles me about the SureFire catalog (and website) is the extent to which it is apparently aspirational rather than descriptive. Granting that 2008 appears to have been much worse than usual, I'd think they would want to be more careful about aligning product publicity with products that really are going to get out the door. But, hey, it ain't my business.


----------

