# hardinge c30a cut knurler- updated with pics



## gt40 (Jun 11, 2010)

Anyone heard of these:

*HARDINGE C30A CUT-TYPE KNURLING TOOL 1" SHANK*


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemVersion&item=360270538031&view=all&tid=0

Looks beefy and I wanted to try a cut knurler. The fancy ifanger, quicke and zeus looked really nice but the price was scary. They all seem to work similar. I will post some pics after it comes. It uses 3/4 x 1/4 x 1/4 straight knurls. Any suggestions on cost effective source for additional ones?


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## precisionworks (Jun 11, 2010)

*Re: just won a hardinge c30a cut knurler...*

Good catch :thumbsup:

See page 6 for info: http://www.hardinge.com/usr/PDF/tooling/1318.PDF

Knurlcraft probably supplies more knurls than anyone else in the world: http://er-tooling.com/Eaglerock/cutknurling.html

I looked on eBay for quite a while for a cut knurl tool, but ended up buying the Eagle Rock K1-44 form knurling tool, 0-2" capacity (Enco had it on sale for about $150). It's the best knurling tool I've ever used, and easy to set up.


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## cmacclel (Jun 12, 2010)

*Re: just won a hardinge c30a cut knurler...*



gt40 said:


> Anyone heard of these:
> 
> *HARDINGE C30A CUT-TYPE KNURLING TOOL 1" SHANK*
> 
> ...


 
Link no worky...... I have an extra LH Cut knurler made my Dorian that I bought and never used. If anyone's interested PM me. Please let us know how the knurler works for you. I have a Quick/Zeuss adjustable one myself and it's still almost impossible to get repeatable results. I still find the knurling tool pushes the work away so I get deeper knurling at the ends 


Mac


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## Anglepoise (Jun 12, 2010)

*Re: just won a hardinge c30a cut knurler...*

Maybe we can persuade Fred ( PhotonFanatic ) to give us some pointers. 
I think he has mastered Cut Knurling.

Personally I find the knurling presses to be very non repeatable and frustrating, especially when knurling Ti after many hours of work ....only to do a poor knurl that ruins the look of the part.

Hate it.


*
*


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## gadget_lover (Jun 12, 2010)

*Re: just won a hardinge c30a cut knurler...*



cmacclel said:


> Link no worky......
> Mac



Search for item 360270538031 

Or use this link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemVersion&item=360270538031

I have no idea why it did not work.

A cut knurler sounds neat, but for a 7x12 lathe .... Probably not.


Daniel


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## gt40 (Jun 12, 2010)

*Re: just won a hardinge c30a cut knurler...*

here is a pic from the ad:







I will post more after I receive it...


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## gt40 (Jun 16, 2010)

*Re: just won a hardinge c30a cut knurler...*

I picked up the knurler and it is in good condition except someone stuck 5/8" knurls on it. On the link precisionworks posted, the holder is supplied standard with two “cut-type” knurls (Part Number: ST-0010901-D). The
knurls have a 3⁄4" (19.05mm) OD, a 1⁄4" (6.35mm) ID, a width of 1⁄4" (6.35mm), and a 30 diametral pitch.

I am not sure about the correct knurls from knurlcraft so I called Hardinge and they have them available for 24 bucks each. He also mentioned that the c30 knurling tool is still sold and that it is $436 bucks new

I ordered a set anyway. It seems there are "form type" knurls and cut type knurls and most of the cut type I could find were in metric sizes. 

If anyone has any other suggestions on where to get 3/4x1/4x1/4 knurls that are cut type, let me know. Also, what the heck is "30 diametral pitch"?

I had to machine a shars cxa holder to fit the 1" shank and it was really a nasty affair on my mini mill. It spit out a million needles of steel but came out okay at least. I managed to get a few steel splinters in spite of being careful. I guess I need to make a dedicated holder for the shop vac hose for this stuff.


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## 65535 (Jun 16, 2010)

*Re: just won a hardinge c30a cut knurler...*

Diametral pitch is the "number of teeth/diameter of the gear".


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## gt40 (Jun 18, 2010)

*Re: just won a hardinge c30a cut knurler...*

Got the new knurls and they outsourced apparently. They are marked form" on them + kn so I guess any straight knurl will work that isn't beveled. I got to play with it for a short time last night and made my first attempt. It is clearly not what I was hoping for. Here are some pics:
















I am unsure about adjustment of the 2 arms holding the knurls. You can rotate them and you get more of a diamond shape on the knurls if you rotate them differently than the pics above. I was mostly trying to get both wheels to make contact at the same time and they were perpendicular to the tube. I will play with it more this weekend and try to get it right. The pattern actually looks fine if you don't magnify it but it isn't a nice diamond yet. So far my set up consists of trying to get the tool to center, and making sure the wheels contact at the same time. I was running it at 115 rpm with the power feed on.

If anyone has any info on how the wheels should be rotated or proper way to setup the tool, it would be great. Fyi, I contacted Hardinge and they faxed me a parts sheet but had no instructions for the tool.


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## precisionworks (Jun 18, 2010)

No experience with cut knurling tools, but lots of info on the web. Most seem to say about the same thing:

http://www.accu-trak.com/holders_cuttype/oridsetup.html

Reading through the different web sites makes me aware how fast & easy it is to set up a scissor type form knurl.


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## PhotonFanatic (Jun 19, 2010)

*Re: just won a hardinge c30a cut knurler...*



gt40 said:


> Got the new knurls and they outsourced apparently. They are marked form" on them + kn so I guess any straight knurl will work that isn't beveled. I got to play with it for a short time last night and made my first attempt. It is clearly not what I was hoping for. Here are some pics:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The photo above shows that one of your knurling bits is cutting into the piece more than the other one. Either your tool is not on center, or you need to adjust the height of the knurl by rotating it a bit.

I also don't see a bevel leading into the knurling, which is highly recommended. You start the knurl by engaging only about 1/3rd of the width of the knurling bit, plunge in quickly and deeply to form the knurl without any double tracking and then do the axial feed. The bevel helps start the knurl properly, imo.

Knurling takes a lot of patience, and practice. You will need to analyze what is wrong with the knurling and then make an adjustment.

And, in my opinion, the piece needs to be fixed in place by using a live center in your tailstock. And before you start knurling, you will need to indicate the piece from end to end after you have turned the piece to the desired diameter; I check not only on the side of the piece, but also on top of the piece as well.


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## gt40 (Jun 27, 2010)

*Re: just won a hardinge c30a cut knurler...*



PhotonFanatic said:


> The photo above shows that one of your knurling bits is cutting into the piece more than the other one. Either your tool is not on center, or you need to adjust the height of the knurl by rotating it a bit.
> 
> I also don't see a bevel leading into the knurling, which is highly recommended. You start the knurl by engaging only about 1/3rd of the width of the knurling bit, plunge in quickly and deeply to form the knurl without any double tracking and then do the axial feed. The bevel helps start the knurl properly, imo.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you very much for your suggestions. I am still trying to master this but I am at least getting closer. I get that you need to have the knurls touch at the exact same time. How much to angle them i really don't get. Here is my progress so far:












Not there yet but at least it made an actual diamond...


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## PhotonFanatic (Jun 27, 2010)

Those are looking much better!


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## gt40 (Jul 1, 2010)

PhotonFanatic said:


> Those are looking much better!


 
I ordered some different knurls and had a breakthrough with 12 tpi kn knurls. They are big enough that there is no question they will track and I am getting really flawless knurls now. I found they are almost too sharp and tried a wire brush and it smoothed it down but knocked a few points down. Here are some new pics:





















Anyone with a cut knurler: try some knurls in the 12-16 tpi range and see for yourself how easy it is to center, cut and get pretty tack sharp knurls. The bigger sizes make setup easier and it looks more custom imo. I will cut some more and shoot them without the wire brush. It was silly how every point was sharp and perfect before I wrecked some being too ambitious with the brush...


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## wquiles (Jul 1, 2010)

Those are looking much better indeed :twothumbs

How much and how fast were you feeding the cutter radially (x) and then across the surface ?

Did you do only one pass, or did you reverse the spindle and repeated the cut?


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## gt40 (Jul 1, 2010)

wquiles said:


> Those are looking much better indeed :twothumbs
> 
> How much and how fast were you feeding the cutter radially (x) and then across the surface ?
> 
> Did you do only one pass, or did you reverse the spindle and repeated the cut?


 

My setup at this point goes as follows:

1. Make sure everything is concentric and the bar/tube is indicating nice
check that the knurler is centered perfectly by using a center in the tail stock. The tool is cut a 60 angle on the end of it as you can see in the pic below so you just make sure the center in the tailstock is fitting in the v perfectly:






2. The next step is key: adjust the cutters so they cut 1/3 of the width of the knurl wheel to set the depth. It works out about half the pitch of the knurl. I will have to measure it but this seems to be optimum. This is the "depth" of the "X" i.e. adjust till you get 1/3 width of the knurl making an impression. I also try to make sure they are sitting at mirror angles as this tool doesnt' have gears to keep them at the same opposite angles. 

3. Fine tune the cutters so they engage at the same time. At this point, I loosen the two screws holding the angled rods the knurls sit on and adjust them so that when I turn the chuck by hand, they engage at the same time.

4. Feeding:

I played around with different feed speeds and the ones in the pic were at .0139 according to the table on the lathe. You can get different diamonds by speeding it up or slowing it down but with the larger knurls it seems to dig in and track so you don't get double tracking and you can control the shape of the diamond this way. With the 30 diametral pitch the tool came with, it is really finicky. I got some plain 20 tpi and 12 tpi knurls from enco and am getting much better results. FYI, these are plain 3/4x1/4x1/4 straight knurls with circular pitch and listed under "form knurls". The main thing is they are sharp edged and not rounded on the edges. The larger teeth seem to track better regardless of the diameter of the piece and I like the look of the larger knurls. The stock knurls are almost too small and it is so small you can't see it properly without a macro.

5. Keep the wheels clean while cutting: I found that by using compressed air and wd40 in alternating blasts on the knurls while it was cutting, I got much cleaner cuts because the wheels were kept clean.

I have repeatedly cut to get to this point using up 10 feet worth of 2" round bar and the larger knurls are finally giving me repeatable results regardless of diameter. 
In answer to to your final point, everything was done in a single pass. You don't want to make multiple passes with a cut knurler. I tried it and the screws on the knurls tended to unravel as they are left hand thread and the cutter would bind.

Here is one final shot with better light:


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## wquiles (Jul 1, 2010)

Awesome - thanks much


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## precisionworks (Apr 9, 2011)

Dorian makes a nice "straddle knurling" tool (CNC-100-7-R):

http://www.drillspot.com/products/5...-r_straddle_forming_cnc_modular_knurling_tool

Capacity is up to 1" diameter ... and it's on sale at Travers for $79.99 ... about 91% off the retail price  The Travers order number is *55-370-934ZD


*


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## darkzero (Apr 10, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> Dorian makes a nice "straddle knurling" tool (CNC-100-7-R):
> 
> http://www.drillspot.com/products/5...-r_straddle_forming_cnc_modular_knurling_tool
> 
> ...



Their site is finally back up from maintenance. It's corrected now & price is back up to $792. I knew it was too good be true, never see that great of a discount on Dorian products. It was worth a shot though.


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## precisionworks (Apr 10, 2011)

That price is not from their website, it's from the paper sale catalog that came two days ago. The front cover states "Sale prices valid from 04/01/11 thru 04/30/11. Phone Travers, give them the model number *including ZD* (meaning an inventory blowout item) & tell the salesperson it's located on page L12 in the April 2011 Metalworking Brochure. Blowout price is $79.99 

I'll fax the page if you want.


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## darkzero (Apr 10, 2011)

Holy crap, unbelievable! I just may have to go there tomorrow during lunch.


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## wquiles (Apr 11, 2011)

darkzero said:


> Holy crap, unbelievable! I just may have to go there tomorrow during lunch.


I wish you good luck, but I just called and they are all out of the $79.99 units - no more at that price 

They do have the larger one (1 and 1/4" shank - $89.99), so I did order one of those, which means I might be making a "custom" holder for that monster soon 

Will


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## gt40 (Apr 11, 2011)

They told me they are discontinued and sold out on the online chat guy....


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## darkzero (Apr 11, 2011)

wquiles said:


> I wish you good luck, but I just called and they are all out of the $79.99 units - no more at that price
> 
> They do have the larger one (1 and 1/4" shank - $89.99), so I did order one of those, which means I might be making a "custom" holder for that monster soon
> 
> Will


 
Most definitely. 

I walked in & the guy did not believe the prices he saw. He said all their warehouses showed 0 stock on all three items. Yesterday online showed only the 3/8" & 1-1/4" shanks in stock.

I was hoping to get the 3/8" shank, always wanted to have a nice knurling tool with thin knurls. Still shows that the 3/8" is in stock online so I placed an order anyways. Not getting my hopes up but we'll see what happens.


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## saltytri (Apr 20, 2011)

Big time "THANKS" to Barry for pointing out the deal at Travers. I called on 4/11 and was told that the 3/8" shank model was out of stock but the phone rep told me she would check to see if any were available from their supplier. After hearing nothing, I wrote it off as a nice try and was surprised when a box arrived today from Dorian. With shipping, sixty-three bucks, every one of them exceedingly well spent. Beats $522, which is the full retail. :twothumbs

Hmmmmm....Maybe I should make a skinny light with a bunch of little knurls. :naughty:


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## darkzero (Apr 21, 2011)

saltytri said:


> Big time "THANKS" to Barry for pointing out the deal at Travers. I called on 4/11 and was told that the 3/8" shank model was out of stock but the phone rep told me she would check to see if any were available from their supplier. After hearing nothing, I wrote it off as a nice try and was surprised when a box arrived today from Dorian. With shipping, sixty-three bucks, every one of them exceedingly well spent. Beats $522, which is the full retail. :twothumbs
> 
> Hmmmmm....Maybe I should make a skinny light with a bunch of little knurls. :naughty:


 
+1 

Thanks Barry!


I rushed home expecting a bunch of packages today. Two of which were supposed to be from MSC & ENCO. Brought them in & did not realized the package I thought to be from ENCO had Dorian tape all over it.

I also expected my order to be cancelled since the store manager at the Travers I walked into simply told me I was out of luck. I was hoping to just get at least one, can't believe I got them all!

The thin knurls are cool, can't wait to try it out. What a great day getting a $2000+ package for only $200+.


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## precisionworks (Apr 21, 2011)

That's a gorgeous looking piece of toolroom jewelry ... sorry, tooling 

What did you end up buying, all three sizes or one size plus additional knurls?

I almost ordered one, but already have two Eagle Rock scissor knurling tools.


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## darkzero (Apr 22, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> That's a gorgeous looking piece of toolroom jewelry ... sorry, tooling
> 
> What did you end up buying, all three sizes or one size plus additional knurls?
> 
> I almost ordered one, but already have two Eagle Rock scissor knurling tools.


 

Yup I think it's purdy too. I'd rather have nice tools than jewlery. 

I got all the same size. I only wanted the small size even though it's only 1/2" capacity. I also have the K1-44 Eagle Rock which is why I wanted the thin knurls.

Here's another pic.


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## precisionworks (Apr 22, 2011)

If tools could talk, your Dorian knurler would tell you how nice it is to be attached to the Dorian SQCTP :thumbsup:


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## cmacclel (Apr 22, 2011)

If anyone has an extra and wants to sell please PM me


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## sakurama (Apr 24, 2011)

Your knurling is really impressive. I've heard that the cut knurlers are better but never used one. Are they as critical on correct diameter? From what I've read the diameter of the work needs to be of a sympathetic relationship to the knurl but it seems your cut knurl just plows through regardless.

Hope there's still a few left on that sale.

G


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## sakurama (Apr 25, 2011)

Well Travers has sold out (no surprise really) but for those who bought a giant post but have a smaller AXA sized holder you may find this interesting: 

http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/Tooling/GiantToolHolder/giantholder.html


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## wquiles (Apr 25, 2011)

sakurama said:


> Well Travers has sold out (no surprise really) but for those who bought a giant post but have a smaller AXA sized holder you may find this interesting:
> 
> http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/Tooling/GiantToolHolder/giantholder.html



Yup. I have done that as well - definitely an option, but those shanks are very TOUGH!!!:
link ...


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## precisionworks (Apr 25, 2011)

If you want to try that, you'll save time & money by using a solid carbide rougher (corn cob) end mill. The rougher is much more effective at hogging out surplus material, and it's also easier on the machine. Finish up with the dovetail cutter & no one will ever know you roughed out the slot.


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## KC2IXE (Apr 26, 2011)

Roughing out those holders is probably one of the places where a shaper would be nice - cheap bits - slow, but should get the job done


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## sakurama (Apr 27, 2011)

I have a small Rockwell mill so I'm very familiar the benefits of roughing endmills. They do a great job on machines that lack the hp but I've never used a full carbide cutter - next up. 

So since I missed out on this great deal what would be the next knurler to keep an eye out for? A cut knurler or a scissor type clamp knurler? I'm guessing they perform very differently. Are there advantages or disadvantages to either? 

Thanks,

G


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## precisionworks (Apr 27, 2011)

> what would be the next knurler to keep an eye out for?


The Eagle Rock scissor knurlers are fast & easy to set up & do a nice job:






Both were purchased on the PM forum, each at about 1/2 of new price.


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