# Firearms Training Courses - Which is best?



## KDOG3 (Jan 27, 2005)

I am very interested in getting the maximum training I can in regards to the proper defensive/offensive use of firearms that a civilian can get. I saw the tail end of a "Tactical to Practical" episode on TLC that was showing a great school that civilians can go thru for firearm home defense, street defense, etc. Was it Thunder Ranch? Anyway, I'm former military (Air Force) and even recieved the Expert Marksman Medal in '94. But recently have not been able to stay proficient. I am planning on purchasing a M-4 carbine and definelty want to "brush up" and learn new tactics as much as possible. Anyone have any info?


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## KDOG3 (Jan 28, 2005)

Good grief, I thought this topic would be overflowing with responses! Oh well, I guess thats what google is for....


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## straightblast (Jan 28, 2005)

Friends that have gone highly recommend these guys, all working seperately across the country:

Pat Rogers (has a school down south, awesome).

Andy Standford

Louis Awerbuck

Randy Cain.

Do a search for them on google, talk with them, find out who you think fits your style of training.


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## wasabe64 (Jan 28, 2005)

It's been quite a few years since I've been active in those circles, but you may want to have a look at what the S&W Academy has to offer.


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## watt4 (Jan 28, 2005)

only slightly OT, I just saw a tv commercial for concealed carry classes (St Louis station)! 

since you want to get a new rifle and get some training, I would suggest getting some local training, practicing basic marksmanship, and getting very familiar with the rifle before dropping money on travel and fees at one of the nationally known courses.


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## Steve C (Jan 28, 2005)

There are numerous "schools" that offer competent handgun training.

Rifle training is another matter entirely. The employment of shoulder weapons as Close Quarter Battle implements is a bit more involved than using a handgun, and should be taught by someone who has actually done it.

Many of these "instructors" talk the talk but cannot walk the walk with a shoulder gun. I say that from behind 20+ years of SWAT experience, making dynamic entries in built-up areas, open terrain operations, etc.

There are a LOT of wannabe warriors who have hung out a shingle and claim to be up-to-speed on the latest/greatest tactics and toys. Some are; most are not.

Clint Smith, founder of Thunder Ranch, is one of the best of the breed. Not only does he bring much trigger time (experience), police and military, to the table, but he is one of the absolute best instructors I've yet to meet. Sadly, he is cutting back. He just moved his operation to Oregon, and getting some personal instruction from him will be difficult in the future. He's getting long in the tooth and wants to kick back. He's been operating and teaching for nearly 30 years. He addressed our state firearms instructor retrainer this past September, and told us he's getting tired.

Anyway, choose wisely. You're talking about a considerable sum of money invested, and the last thing you want for an instructor is some armchair commando with weird ideas and a much higher opinion of his ability than is warranted.

I've been out of this loop for several years now, and I normally don't make specific comments on individuals on a public board. Clint is simply outstanding, so I have no reservations regarding his qualifications nor my recommending them.

Look for someone with VERIFIABLE creds. Military spec ops experience is good, and several larger civilian police agencies have produced guys on the cutting edge. Gabe Suarez is one such.

Good luck...


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## straightblast (Jan 28, 2005)

One other thought, go to www.tacticalforums.com and ask around there. Quite a bit of experience on that board. Another such board is www.snipershide.com


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## KDOG3 (Jan 28, 2005)

Thanks for the info, Steve. Any you are SOOOOO correct. Is there any other people/schools you would recommend? I don't when I will be able to do what I'm planning, (the ol' $$$ issue) so I won't bother Clint is hes getting to the point that hes ready to retire.(God bless him, though) I assume Thunder Ranch has other great instructors?


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## Ophiuchus (Jan 28, 2005)

There is also www.tacproshootingcenter.com . Former Special Boat Service instructor and Royal Marine. Very qualified, real world instruction. Located in Texas.


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## sunspot (Jan 28, 2005)

A great place to ask your questions would be www.thehighroad.org . There are very good people at that forum.


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## sithjedi333 (Jan 28, 2005)

I found Frontsight to be very good. It cost $50 if you buy one of those certificates off eBay. Great deal in my book.


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## K-T (Jan 29, 2005)

You might want to visit some more Gun-related forums and ask there, too. This could give you some additional feedback. I don't doubt that there aren't some very experienced "gunners" around here, yet in the past these things weren't the most visited topics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## Steve C (Jan 29, 2005)

As I said, I've been out of those circles for a few years. I maintain my certification for old times' sake, but I haven't done any teaching nor operating in some time; and probably never will again.

Yes, Clint makes every effort to hire competent adjunct instructors. The one I met during Clint's visit seemed sharp enough and had good "book-sense", but had no actual trigger time. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but those who have been shot at for real definitely have a different attitude... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Joe Talmadge (Jan 29, 2005)

There are a lot of great instructors, so you'll just end up with a big list.

From my personal experience, the best I've been to so far is ITTS, chief instructor Scott Reitz. Scott is chief firearms instructor for metro (SWAT) in LA. The intermediate-level course is the most difficult shooting I'd ever done ... until I tried the advanced level. What makes it more difficult is Scott and staff yelling at you and putting pressure on you whenever you mess up. Between the difficulty of the shooting and pressure from the instructors, you're in for a hell of a ride, and will definitely push yourself. On the other hand, these instructors have seen the elephant, and are great. If you're looking to be coddled, looks elsewhere, though. Most of the other guys in the class were cops, BTW.


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## CM (Jan 29, 2005)

Start looking at local courses. For tactical carbine classes like the M4's, it's probably going to be harder to find decent classes locally depending on your location. If you can afford the time/travel, Thunder Ranch is decent though I haven't been there (time mainly). As above, check out the tactical forums and carefully screen the recommendations there. There are a lot of wannabee instructors but basic tactics is not hard to teach.


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## chevrofreak (Jan 29, 2005)

If Pat Goodale ever has a course near you, its worth taking.


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## oklalawman (Feb 3, 2005)

Where do you live?? I mean there are alot of great schools out there. Probably the newest is Vahalla and it looke like a great site. Personally I would stay close to home to reduce expense. One class I would highly recommend is Masad Ayoobs course. It teaches alot about legal survival not just shooting though it does that too.


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## StanTeate (Feb 3, 2005)

I went to "Thunder Ranch" just outside of San Antonio. Instructors were excellent. About half the class were officers and SWAT who wanted more advanced training than their local stations offered. Highly recommended. Do a google search for thunder ranch. The site outlines the courses and the requirments. 

Stan Teate


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## sween1911 (Feb 3, 2005)

KDOG3, 

PM sent. A lot of the big name ranges are good, but do a lot of research and talk to people who have taken courses to see what they're like. Trainers like Andy Stanford of OPS, Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts, and Gabe Suarez travel and hold classes all over the world, so look into attending a course in your area. 

Be advised that one teacher's tried and true curriculum is another teacher's pile of BS, so be sure to take in what they have to offer, test it out, and form your own opinions.

Some google-fu should connect you with their contact info, class reviews, etc.


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