# why do all my friends buy dollar store shower head LED flashlights?



## masterP (May 9, 2015)

why do all my friends buy dollar store shower head LED flashlights? or Maglite solitare's, Dorcy, and other crap?

don't they see the use for a decent light? whenever I see them trying to find something in the dark or work on their car or walk in the dark with one of these blue colored LED lights I think to myself why bother. a candle would be better

even worse, a friend of mine mounts one of these dollar store LED lights on his AR15

why?


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## zipplet (May 9, 2015)

The fact your friends are buying lights at all is a good thing at least. My friends don't, even though we are living in a country that experiences natural disasters - which would make you think they would realise the need to carry one.

I'd say the reason they don't buy anything better is they don't know that better lights exist at a fair price if you look online. They may also be of the "I can't be bothered with ordering online" sort of person.

If you want to convert your friends consider gifting them cheap, good quality lights. Then they will realise the difference!

Edit: I'd like to add that the very cheap lights (plastic 5mm LED) do have a place sometimes. If you are buying a couple of lights that will be stashed away next to your breaker for emergencies and otherwise barely used it does not make sense for most people to buy a higher end aluminium light. As long as what they have is reliable, it does not matter. There are reputable manufacturers that make reliable lights in this category, for example Panasonic sell various plastic lights in Japan for these uses.

I can understand that for some people it only makes sense to buy a higher end light if you rely on it regularly for EDC/work use, need high output or are taking part in certain activities like camping. That's why I am quite happy to recommend mag-lite to people who just want a light they can buy in their local store for infrequent use. I will recommend higher end brands to people who specifically ask me about a "better light than mag-lite" or have a need for EDC/etc.


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## Palantas (May 9, 2015)

Lots of people know of nothing better. Not everyone's a nerd (like me) who gets online and researches every purchase he makes.


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## Str8stroke (May 9, 2015)

masterP said:


> even worse, a friend of mine mounts one of these dollar store LED lights on his AR15
> 
> why?



Funny post.

Oh my! I had to put my coffee down so I could put my palm on my forehead. 

I too have "that" friend. He has about $2800 into a Sig .308 and has a knock off Convoy C8 with the blue UltraFire cells and a cheap gooey tape switch. Half the time his light is flickering. I am like WHY!!! I asked him why no Surefire? He said he wanted a Unique gun! lol. So I pointed out Malkoff and Elzetta. He actually said, "those are too expensive". I was at a loss of words. 
Worst part is, I used to value his opinion on guns a few years back. However, this incident has tainted my view of him. It has also put a strain on our gun bromance.


I also have "that" neighbor that sees me out at night in the front yard playing with lights. He shows up every now and then with a new Ebay light to show me what 10,000 lumen is really about. I keep telling him to stop it, ask me before you buy. He is convinced that no matter what, his lights are brighter. Even after I tell him, I don't care about lumen. (he laughs gingerly thinking I am in denial) He forces me to see how bright his lights are. He has a imaginary competition with me. He hasn't figured out the difference between flood and throw. lol I trick him with flood every time. I say, look how much of my yard you can see! lol 

Sad part is, he has yet to out do one of my Kyfishguy Micro Mag Triples. I think he has bought about 10 AA lights in order to beat it. I keep saying, it is a "Special" AA battery.  I know, I know not fair. But.....I have told him to ask me before he buys.


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## NoNotAgain (May 9, 2015)

Str8stroke said:


> Funny post.
> 
> Oh my! I had to put my coffee down so I could put my palm on my forehead.
> 
> ...



Would your gun friend also be the guy that purchases the Burska optic because they have a scope that has a magnification range of 2.5-50X for only $79? Or purchases Golden Bear ammo for competition shooting?


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## Berneck1 (May 9, 2015)

The vast majority of people do not know these lights exist. I hate to say it, but everybody in this forum is a tiny minority compared to the average flashlight buyer.

Furthermore, there's no way most would pay $200 for a flashlight, not to mention $40 for a flashlight. They are happy with the $10 50 lumen plastic version.

As someone mentioned before, there are some who don't even own a flashlight! That to me is way worse than someone who doesn't care to have a quality light...


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


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## recDNA (May 9, 2015)

Heck, I'd love a shower head type with all 219A or even 119 Nichia LEDs


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## AVService (May 9, 2015)

I have found that many do not appreciate better quality in almost everything you can buy if it is more expensive and this is especially true for flashlights.

People just don't get it just like I don't get it with endless other things?

A lot of times you just do not know what you need until you actually need it but I am also sure I don't need most of the crap I have too.

Go figure,I would maybe have more cash,likely not.


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## timbo114 (May 9, 2015)

My very good friend of 28 years is a master mechanic, talented carpenter, jack of all trades and master of many.
We were working on my car in his garage, I asked him to hand me a flashlight - 
He handed me a plastic hockey puck with about 23 dim LEDs in it. 
Now this guy has every high quality hand tool known to mankind, *hockey puck*?!?! Come on.

I made sure that my friend had a quality LED torch for his *pocket*, *toolbox* & *glove box* from then on.
He was quite fully amazed at the output of an ITP Eos AAA - his amazement continued to grow from that point ...:devil:


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## Str8stroke (May 9, 2015)

NoNotAgain, LOL. Yes I have seen those folks too. My buddy loads his own! Has them all marked in special cases with the grain & powder used & dates!!! Last I saw, he had a NightForce scope!!! So you can see what I mean. All that, then a $10 light!!!! Worst part was, he used Loctite on the threads to make sure it doesn't come off! hahahahaha 

AVService, I sorta agree & disagree. My point is that someone will buy the high end top of the line gun gear. While they spare no expense on the gun, they fall off the deep end when comes to a light for it! lol This fellow has no budget on anything! 

timbo, sounds like you just described my brother. He has one of those Snap On tool boxes, worth more than my truck & light collection! It is stuffed full of snap on, mac, matco and craftsman tools. He has tools, for tools. And he was using a 3C indy Maglite until I fixed him up a year or so ago. I thought he was going to pass out when he first held a McGizmo. So I picked up a used one for him. What makes me most proud is that he actually USES the heck out of it. I never told him how much it cost. I figured if I did, he wouldn't use it.


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## Grijon (May 9, 2015)

I gifted each of my friends and family with a Fenix E01 along with a little writeup explaining the usefulness of a light in an emergency and the gentle request that they put the light on their keychain; the writeup also described the E01's benefits and the advantages of the lithium AAA I had installed for them, with the offer of cleaning and lubing the light and replacing the battery anytime they run it out. It is my hope that each of these people that I care about have the light on them (I have gotten positive feedback from several!) and my ulterior motive to maybe convert some into flashaholics.

My point? I know that they know there are quality lights out there, and that they know someone who can help them find them - if they wish!


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## Grijon (May 9, 2015)

Str8stroke said:


> Funny post.
> 
> Oh my! I had to put my coffee down so I could put my palm on my forehead.
> 
> ...



 Bravo, sir; what a post!


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## Roger Sully (May 9, 2015)

I find that some folks have their priorities a little warped. Not that a flashlight is the most important thing in the world but as others have stated, why put that much into a weapon and then buy a weaponlight that may crap out after the first round! 
I sell equipment to law enforcement and I can't tell you how often I see guys spending $150+ on a folding knife but then turn around and say that $65 for a light is too much. Do I think a $150+ knife is too much? Not at all, but if you work nights a light should be a priority, no?
Why they do it I will never know.


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## AVService (May 9, 2015)

Str8stroke said:


> AVService, I sorta agree & disagree. My point is that someone will buy the high end top of the line gun gear. While they spare no expense on the gun, they fall off the deep end when comes to a light for it! lol This fellow has no budget on anything!
> 
> .



That is my point really,you can't make sense out of things that make no sense!

I also show friends and guys at the range the Elzetta or SF on an AR or Carbine and they drool all over the gun but don't acknowledge the light or what it took to put it there really at all?

You can't sell a Pig a Bathtub as they say.


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## masterP (May 9, 2015)

I should mention my friend that has a dollar store flashlight with a tape switch mounted on his AR also has a Fakecog optic on it and a list of other airsoft gun parts cause he's too cheap to buy the real thing.

he says....same deal, whats the difference? lol

he's the king when it comes to buying knock off's......if he could find a knock off surefire for $10 he'd grab it in a minute. I mean whats the difference, right? they both put out light


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## ven (May 9, 2015)

Grijon said:


> Bravo, sir; what a post!




+1 :laughing: great post Srt8stroke


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## buddyrohr (May 9, 2015)

i think people just dont know except what theyre specifically interested in. i used maglites for most of my life until i saw other guys flashlight pics on a forum so somebody suggested i come on here and learn. after doing that for a few days i bought some real lights they havent arrived yet. like somebody said unless you look into something you really care about like tools or guns etc you just tend to buy whatever is in walmart etc. once you see there is something better you see the value in it. gun and tool guys especially we dont like stuff that fails or breaks so its easy to convince us to buy a quality light. first we have to know quality lights exist though.actually i never had a maglite fail or break on me ever and i had them for many decades.


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## Woods Walker (May 10, 2015)

Very often they work and people have a bunch of them around so even when misplaced or killed from leaking batteries, kids etc etc a few survive to serve when needed. It's a numbers game. "I got a bunch all over" is the short answer I have gotten to this question. I can't deny the logic.


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## rickypanecatyl (May 10, 2015)

While I agree with you I'll also give another angle to the story. 

Cheap dollar store lights are:

- Cheap
- Easy to come by
- (Brace yourselves for this one - it might hurt...) often more reliable than brands highly regarded on this site such as Fenix, Eagletac, Nitecore, Xenon.

Guys who seriously NEED flashlights can't be bothered with whether or not Eagletac has finally gotten their act together and is "eagletac waterproof" really waterproof. 
A reliable 20 lumens often trumps a glitchy 2000 lumens. (Flashaholics can be blinded by love and see past the glitchiness because a.) its a hobby not a need b.) they may 5 other back up lights they're happy to pull out when the first one doesn't work. 

I get sick of the mantra 2 is 1 and 1 is 0. The rallying cry of cheap junk being made. The issue is even people that believe in that mantra only apply it to their few hobbies. So for example you're driving from Erbil to Mosul on a tactical mission (cuz we're all SF guys right? :wave - you bring your big light, your EDC, your keychain light and your back up lights for each of those lights. You bring batteries and back up batteries cuz new batteries fail all the time. You bring your charger and of course your back up charger because if you're buying "Xstar" or Fenix chargers they're absolute junk if not in a pristine environment and you don't want to be that idiot who didn't know the mantra 2 is 1 and 1 is 0. Bring your power plug adapter and of course your back up power plug adapter (there's a really good chance they'll both fail though... and least if you bring a back up you _*can say*_ you brought a back up so you don't look like an idiot!) Put them all in your bug out bag but then then everything you packed make an exact duplicate because a.) your whole bug out bag could be stolen and b.) if its a "tactical" model it probably will rip open, have "smart zippers" that automatically open at inconvenient times.
GPS, back up GPS and of course if your using Garmin you better have a back up back up GPS. I've found more than 50% of Garmin cables go bad in the first month so by all means have at least 3 back ups of all of those. Your weapon of course, your back up weapon, cleaning kit and back up cleaning kit. Your driving right? You know the regular rectifiers often go out in the hummer so bring a back up (or two) and the tools to change it... and back up tools to back up the lifetime warranty tools that they will replace hassle free with the same junk that broke on the first use as soon as you get back to America after hauling the broken junk around the world so that's pretty cool of them right? Can't complain there? Cool thing was, the brand you bought was only 1/2 the price of the brand that went out of business because everyone else had the same amazing money saving revelation that you did of how much more awesome it was to pay 1/2 price 12x, spending $200 of gas to make the 12 purchases.

Sorry I digress....

Only to say that in most every instance I've found the cheapo lights more reliable (while of course amazingly under performing) than Eagletacs, Fenixes, Nitecore... the AWESOME lights of CPF... and I don't know that I want to berate the guy who doesn't know as much about flashlight performance as I do for spending $5 for a light that's working while I'm explaining in the dark how the 800 lumen Fenix headlamp would absolutely blow away all their pieces of junk headlamps IF it was working right now...


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## besafe2 (May 10, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> Very often they work and people have a bunch of them around so even when misplaced or killed from leaking batteries, kids etc etc a few survive to serve when needed. It's a numbers game. "I got a bunch all over" is the short answer I have gotten to this question. I can't deny the logic.


This + I'm not as light smart as 99.9% of the folks here but I just happen to enjoy lights & being retired can't afford to put as much money in as the bulk of you all.


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## thedoc007 (May 10, 2015)

rickypanecatyl said:


> Cheap dollar store lights are:
> 
> - Cheap
> - Easy to come by
> ...



Wow, sounds like you have had some bad luck. My experience has been quite different...while I see the benefit of value lights (Convoy springs to mind) I have found really cheap lights to be worse in every regard. From brightness, to usability, to tint, to reliability...across the board. I'm not arguing that you aren't paying a premium for many of the favorite CPF lights...but they are much higher quality overall, in my experience.

I also think you are taking the 2=1 philosophy to an extreme (yeah, I realize you were making a point, but still). Obviously most of us have to make compromises...but in the real world, things happen. Items get lost, or stolen, or (gasp!) even have a hidden defect. Regardless of what you spend, on either end of the cost scale, there is ALWAYS a chance of failure. Granted, for most of us a failure of a light isn't going to be absolutely critical (TEEJ is the exception, not the rule), but when it is reasonably inexpensive to carry a spare, why not? Especially when you can get more flexibility that way also...you can carry a flooder as your main, and a thrower as backup, for example. You also seem to be missing the idea of fun! Most of us carry lights because we enjoy using them, not because we are expecting the apocalypse to begin tomorrow. 

Remembered this from another thread:

"Maybe you are just thinking about it in the wrong way. Let's say, just hypothetically, the Crelant (value light) has a 1% failure rate, while the Haiku (expensive titanium custom) has a .01% failure rate. I would agree, the chances of the Haiku failing are lower. This, statistically speaking, is a fact. However, I'd still go with the two Crelants if I really needed reliable light. If the Haiku fails, you are SOL. Nothing you can do, no backup. If Crelant #1 fails, though, or you drop it, or lose it, you still have a backup. The chances of TWO Crelants failing AT THE SAME TIME is negligible, even though the Haiku is "more reliable" by the statistics. It is just a bonus that the Crelants are also quite substantially cheaper."

I think your budget largely determines what type of light you buy...from $5 to $500 or more. But regardless of what you decide to spend, having a backup just makes sense. It doesn't have to be expensive, and anticipating for a failure doesn't mean the lights are shoddy...it just means you have learned from experience that things don't always go the way you planned.


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## rickypanecatyl (May 10, 2015)

thedoc007 said:


> You also seem to be missing the idea of fun! Most of us carry lights because we enjoy using them, not because we are expecting the apocalypse to begin tomorrow.



Good point there! I forgot about that! I'm kind of on the cusp of flashlights being a toy or a tool. When I think of them as a tool I'm less forgiving!



> "Maybe you are just thinking about it in the wrong way. Let's say, just hypothetically, the Crelant (value light) has a 1% failure rate, while the Haiku (expensive titanium custom) has a .01% failure rate. I would agree, the chances of the Haiku failing are lower. This, statistically speaking, is a fact. However, I'd still go with the two Crelants if I really needed reliable light. If the Haiku fails, you are SOL. Nothing you can do, no backup. If Crelant #1 fails, though, or you drop it, or lose it, you still have a backup. The chances of TWO Crelants failing AT THE SAME TIME is negligible, even though the Haiku is "more reliable" by the statistics. It is just a bonus that the Crelants are also quite substantially cheaper."



That's some bad math there or perhaps I'm misunderstanding you? I realize that in 1 out of 100 failures vs 1 out of 10,000 failures per given incident, on the surface it would seem like the odds would be the same for 2 crelants to fail vs 1 haiku. But reality is so much different. Say for example the Crelant that was 100x more likely to fail, failed because of getting wet, when it rains on you, and your first crelant has already failed the odds of the second crelant failing are really high. It's not accurate to say Haiku has a 1 in 10,000 chance of failing, the Crelant 1 in 100 and thus 100 x 100 = 10,000 and so the odds of 2 crelants failing is the same as 1 Haiku failing.

Flashlight "systems" are made up of lots of parts. (I'm a bottom line guy and when my light doesn't work and it is close to a life or death situation, I'm calling it a failure even if it was the battery, the battery charger, the battery charger plug or PCB... bottom line it didn't work. To be extreme, think of it like explaining your companies parachute pack failing to deploy to your customers widow. She's not going to feel relieved as you explain it was actually the tailcap that wasn't working... not the light! Or as Fenix last told me after 2 failures in a row on two different headlamps it wasn't the headlamp... it was [our propriety] cable that wasn't working!

Here's a more accurate way to look at the issue mathematically. Instead of saying the Haiku (I don't know what it is but I'm assuming it's higher quality?) is 2x more reliable than the Crelant let's say that it is built from parts and workmanship that is 2x more reliable than the crelant. And to simplify it, let's say for the light to come on when you press the button the way you want/expect it to there are 10 parts that have to work/do what they are supposed. And to make it easy, let's say the Haiku is perfect and no parts ever fail no matter what and that all the Crelant parts work as they are supposed to 50% of the time. 
With those kind of numbers there would be a 1:1 chance - 100% chance of the Haiku coming on when you pressed the button and a .1% (1 out of 1,024) chance the Crelant will come on when you press the button. If you then carried 1024 Crelants with you and went thru them all (in your emergency) that of course does not guarantee you a 100% chance that at least one of them will come on. In fact I think you'd have a 50% chance 2 would come on, but certainly no guarantee 1 would. 

Getting lost or stolen is an interesting thought to muse on... though personally I find I'm far less likely to lose 1 thing I know I can't lose than to lose 2 or 5 things I've made back ups of just in case they are lost are stolen. For example I'm American but I live 11 1/2 months a year away from home traveling. I lose ATM cards all the time - not intentionally but my theory is I do it because I have back ups. I don't have a back up passport and I don't lose it and it doesn't get stolen... ever since the state department told me I couldn't lose another one!


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## AVService (May 10, 2015)

I think this last argument is a load of crap speaking from my own experience alone.

I find the better but hardly custom lights to be entirely reliable for me and I use the flashlights every day,all day and am pretty much blind without added light while working.

I carry Fenix and Zebra as my main lights and have not had any failures of any kind.
Further before I discovered these higher performance lights I was NEVER getting the kind of illumination or consistency of light as I now do.

I can use any tools I prefer and I generally prefer better quality as I just think they work better and handle better helping me deliver a higher quality more uniform product to my customer.

Cheap lights to me have been exactly like every other cheap tool......just cheap.

I almost never need to justify this to other people when they see it for themselves on a jobsite. Everyone is interested whether they are willing to commit and jump on board or not. Y=The value is obvious I think.

And when I am in an Attic or Crawl Space or dark building not yet powered and lit you can bet your cheap *** that I will have more than 1 light with me at all times!

But I am happy for you if you don't feel the same way and are saving some money with that too,different strokes.


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## thedoc007 (May 10, 2015)

rickypanecatyl said:


> That's some bad math there or perhaps I'm misunderstanding you?
> 
> It's not accurate to say Haiku has a 1 in 10,000 chance of failing, the Crelant 1 in 100 and thus 100 x 100 = 10,000 and so the odds of 2 crelants failing is the same as 1 Haiku failing.



You have completely misunderstood my point (again). Funny that the numbers match up like that...I was just opining that even if a light theoretically has far better statistical reliability, your odds of having NO working light are higher if you have a single, very reliable light, when compared to two "decent" quality lights. I'm not talking about the failure of a flashlight...I'm talking about YOUR ability to see things in the dark. Two SIMULTANEOUS failures is extremely unlikely. You still have to worry about batteries, theft, loss, physical damage, etc...even if a light is theoretically more reliable. Having an independent backup limits the influence of many of those factors. The idea is to have a working light, not to avoid failures of any kind (which, given time, are simply inevitable). Even your own example of a parachute proves my point. Guess what...you aren't allowed to jump without a reserve chute. Taking great care, packing perfectly, carefully inspecting your main chute, good maintenance, etc., is not enough. When you NEED something to work, you make sure to bring a spare. 



rickypanecatyl said:


> Here's a more accurate way to look at the issue mathematically. Instead of saying the Haiku (I don't know what it is but I'm assuming it's higher quality?) is 2x more reliable than the Crelant let's say that it is built from parts and workmanship that is 2x more reliable than the crelant. And to simplify it, let's say for the light to come on when you press the button the way you want/expect it to there are 10 parts that have to work/do what they are supposed. And to make it easy, let's say the Haiku is perfect and no parts ever fail no matter what and that all the Crelant parts work as they are supposed to 50% of the time.
> With those kind of numbers there would be a 1:1 chance - 100% chance of the Haiku coming on when you pressed the button and a .1% (1 out of 1,024) chance the Crelant will come on when you press the button. If you then carried 1024 Crelants with you and went thru them all (in your emergency) that of course does not guarantee you a 100% chance that at least one of them will come on. In fact I think you'd have a 50% chance 2 would come on, but certainly no guarantee 1 would.



I think we can all see that this is ridiculous. Again, I can see how you might exaggerate a bit to make your point, but when you take it that far, it becomes absolutely absurd. There is no such thing is perfect reliability...and no light has ever been as unreliable as your example, for obvious reasons.


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## masterP (May 10, 2015)

I consider a flashlight a tool. and I like collecting tools

and if you were a mechanic you wouldn't use dollar store tools. if you were lost in the woods you wouldn't want to be holding a dollar store flashlight.

if you were a cop or a fireman you wouldn't be using a dollar store flashlight. if there was a power outage for a couple of days you wouldn't want to be stuck with a dollar store flashlight.

I guess I appreciate good tools more than my friends......not saying I don't have any dollar store lights in my house. lol.....because I just gotta have a flashlight in almost every room and vehicle. 

I guess the best thing a dollar store flashlight is good for is to get you to your good flashlight.....or for lending to your friends


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## flashy bazook (May 10, 2015)

At least now the cheap corner-store lights use LEDs a lot of the time, which means their reliability has jumped up a lot. Even if the "quality" of the light, or the tint, is bad, they probably will continue to put out light when needed.

The deeper question is why do most walk-in stores normally store cheap, low quality stuff in the first place!

It's some kind of vicious circle, walk-in customers just want to buy something and not pay a whole lot, the stores want to buy wholesale even cheaper and put in employees who are also cheap (so untrained and not able to sell or explain expensive stuff).

One example, I walk in the neighborhood hardware store, and look for what kind of LED light bulbs they have. Wouldn't you know all their shelves are covered with cheap no-name stuff. Forget the Phillip's or even the CREE's.

Here we are trying to start a revolution in lighting and to cut down on electricity waste, and this is how it will be done in the average US home.

Same goes with flashlights.

In general I have to say I try to avoid buying stuff from walk-in stores any more as much as I can, better to research something on the internet and order it.

It could be that stores would reward loyalty and provide attention to detail and quality, but instead they go the other way, using all the advertising tricks and considering since you already put in the time and effort to get to the store, park you car, and walk in, they might as well charge you more and give you inferior product.

Department stores do the same, they even design the stores like a maze, and so it's hard to see where the exit is once you've gone in and taken a few turns. They figure after they have you walking in there for an hour or so you will just buy anything to finish your business and manage to finally get away.

The sad thing is that these tricks, and especially advertising, work a lot of the time for a lot of the people.


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## LedTed (May 10, 2015)

I'm with you masterP,

I think the lack of understanding is mainly due to two assumptions. First, there will always be electric building / house lighting. (We know this to be false.) Second, the vast perception of a flashlight is the cheap incandescent 2X D-cell. (This is just nostalgia.)

I have and example to support my second point. I was involved in a work project with an engineer, and we needed an inspection light, so I grabbed my ever present NC D11.2. The engineer was immediatly impressed with the little single AA flashlight. As soon as we had completed testing. The engineer asked to borrow the D11. He used the writing on its body to research getting a D11 of his own. He came back a few minutes later, and almost in a panic asked, "Did you really spend $50.00 on a flashlight?" Although I offered to share LED flashlight info with the engineer, he never again even asked to use my D11.


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## masterP (May 10, 2015)

flashy bazook said:


> At least now the cheap corner-store lights use LEDs a lot of the time, which means their reliability has jumped up a lot. Even if the "quality" of the light, or the tint, is bad, they probably will continue to put out light when needed.
> 
> The deeper question is why do most walk-in stores normally store cheap, low quality stuff in the first place!
> 
> ...





the thing is....most stores don't carry any high quality flashlights. you have to order them online most of the time. it pisses me off cause I hate paying the shipping and handling charges. if you need a replacement bulb it's gonna cost you more in shipping costs

that's why I'm finally switching to LED....tried of buying bulbs. I grew up using maglites all my life and at one time they were the best you could get

I'm in Vancouver Canada and there's only two stores that sell Surefire, two that sells Foursevens, and two that sell Fenix and practically none that sell anything else....... but every Canadian Tire, Home Depot, and every hardware, sporting goods, and automotive supply shop has their flashlight section full of Dorcy, Noma, and their house brand cheap flashlight

even Maglite has some sneaky advertising. if you look at the front package there's a black and yellow box with a number on it.....usually the lumens it puts out......USUALLY, but not always. for their lower lumen lights they put the beam distance in the black and yellow box. pretty sneaky....if you didn't look closely like most people, you'd just look at the highest number and think that's the better one

I think that's the only way they get people to buy the solitaire


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## maglite mike (May 10, 2015)

All of the new LED Mags put the lumens first. I'm not sure why they continue to sell the incandescent lights in stores being that they have limited shelf space. Incans should only be available online


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## Woods Walker (May 11, 2015)

rickypanecatyl said:


> While I agree with you I'll also give another angle to the story.
> 
> Cheap dollar store lights are:
> 
> ...



There is a hobby and need aspect to this. Every kit item be it a light, knife, water filter etc etc must earn it's place within my pack and preps. Any tool might be employed at any time for stuff beyond what it's intended use. Some people do get blinded by brand loyalty. I have a buddy whose Emerson knife badly chipped on wood which our Mora and Sog knives handled with no problems. The factory reground the knife and he is happy but it would be dead to me, band name not withstanding. Same goes for a light. If it fails to make the team that's it.


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## buddyrohr (May 11, 2015)

thedoc007 said:


> You also seem to be missing the idea of fun! Most of us carry lights because we enjoy using them, not because we are expecting the apocalypse to begin tomorrow.


This.

all the stuff i carry whether its guns or knives or tools in my truck its stuff i love that i have broken in and can rely on. i am not looking to break down on the road or shoot it out with anyone and thank god i have avoided doing that in over 30 years of carrying daily not once did i ever have to point a gun at anybody or threaten anybody. i love well made stuff it adds a certain quality to your life. i spent a lot of time handloading and shooting and i can get into lights because its the same sort of thing. self sufficiency and preparedness learning how stuff works and having nice stuff around. not looking for trouble and not even hoping for it quite the opposite. but if it does hit the fan then i wont feel stranded.

be prepared!

buddy


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## Str8stroke (May 11, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> There is a hobby and need aspect to this. Every kit item be it a light, knife, water filter etc etc must earn it's place within my pack and preps. If it fails to make the team that's it.




I am kinda the same way. Interesting thing is some people do NO prep at all. My funny adversarial neighbor (he is actually a great guy), can't understand why I have a few prep items. Mostly basics, but nothing is of subpar or cheap quality. Everything possible has been tested before it goes in the my bag. You would think that living in a place that looses power due to storms regularly, he would want a quality light. I think the "dollar store led lights" hook him because of the price. I guess he sees all those "features" and the price and gets sold. 

Example, when I flooded his whole yard & house with one of my TNT Triples he said, yea its brighter, but.......It doesn't have SOS!!!!!!! Don't get me started on Tints!!! I showed him how his angry blue led makes everything look black and is hard to tell the difference between fallen leafs and dog poop. He said, It doesn't matter! lol I told him he needs to go get tested for being color blind! 
Don't get me started on batteries. He thinks the CR123's all cost $8 each. This is due to the smoke detectors in his house! He buys the Energizer Lithiums from the CVS. They are insanely expensive there. 
So I guess the buys the dollar store lights because everything else is a rip off, requires special batteries and doesn't have SOS?? 

I guess I need to get one of those 20 mode SUNWAYMAN lights that has the blue & red cop mode. I would blow his mind! 

"I'd buy that for a dollar"


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## masterP (May 11, 2015)

I'm not a prepper but I like to be prepared for almost anything. none of my friends believe in flashlights or fire extinguishers or spare tires or extra toilet paper


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## Berneck1 (May 11, 2015)

I'm not a hardcore prepper, but I like to be prepared. I do believe in the "two is one" philosophy, but only with certain things. I like to have two flashlights and two cutting tools with me, among other things. Of course I'm not carrying two chargers and extra batteries, and two of this and two of that with me wherever I go. However, I do have immediate backups of the things I deem immediately important. 

I think the earlier post is taken to extreme and has no practicality whatsoever. There is a good reason for two is one, but there are limits. It's not practical to have a backup to everything with you at all times. I do, however, have two of a lot of things at home. The quicker you realize you cannot be prepared for anything and everything, the better off you are. There are plenty of unknowns, but you can be reasonably prepared for most things.


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


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## rickypanecatyl (May 11, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> There is a hobby and need aspect to this. Every kit item be it a light, knife, water filter etc etc must earn it's place within my pack and preps. Any tool might be employed at any time for stuff beyond what it's intended use. Some people do get blinded by brand loyalty. _*I have a buddy whose Emerson knife badly chipped on wood which our Mora and Sog knives handled with no problems. *_The factory reground the knife and he is happy but it would be dead to me, band name not withstanding. Same goes for a light. If it fails to make the team that's it.



I agree with you Woods Walker. If it wasn't obvious my long post above was more about venting than even trying to make a point - we were prepping to go from Burma to Iraq last week and I had 1 eagletac, 1 Fenix and 1 Xstar charger all go out within a few days of each other. 

Real life certainly proves this statement from Doc false:


> your odds of having NO working light are higher if you have a single, very reliable light, when compared to two "decent" quality lights.



Your example of the Emerson knife is another pet peave of mine... I have a sneaky suspicion we're living in an era where companies with good reputations for quality products are cashing in that reputation and slipping in some lower quality gear. The major bummer of that is I agree with you: Don't put something untested in your bag but do we have to check everything know because 2 products with the same name maybe of vastly different quality?

I could give many example but one I tested fairly thoroughly was the Garmin 60CSx. When the model with SIRF came out about 10 years ago it was the top. My eventually died with my rough treatment about 8 years later and I replaced it with the updated 62s which lasted 5 months but was destroyed by water. Got it replaced and the new one did the same thing. I didn't get a scratch on my 60CSx screen for 6 years and only then it was something traumatic. That happened in a few months with the newer 62. 
Before sending the broken 62 in for it's second fix I tested the screen side by side with the 60 working my way up Mohs scale of hardness and indeed the 60 was much harder than the "new improved 62."
However I then sent my 60 in to get fixed and they sent me a new "refurbished" 60. It had the same soft screen as the newer 62 and also wasn't up to the same water ingress resistance as the original 60.


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## scs (May 11, 2015)

Some people go after what they want sometimes and what they need other times, while having to compromise with what's offered most of the time.


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## thedoc007 (May 11, 2015)

rickypanecatyl said:


> Real life certainly proves this statement from Doc false



Your experience has been different, I get that...but that doesn't prove my statement false. Anecdotal evidence (your own experience) is quite limited...you can't generalize just because you were unlucky.

Again, when it REALLY matters, you bring a spare if it is practical. This is true in all kinds of fields...EMS, fire, policing, military, parachuting, etc. There are countless examples. Failures are absolutely inevitable, given enough time and/or rough treatment. This is true regardless of the amount of money you spend. Surefire and HDS may have better than average reliability...but they also still have customer service departments. If their lights never failed, that wouldn't be necessary...if you need a job done no matter what, you have to carry a backup.


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## RetroTechie (May 11, 2015)

flashy bazook said:


> At least now the cheap corner-store lights use LEDs a lot of the time, which means their reliability has jumped up a lot. Even if the "quality" of the light, or the tint, is bad, they probably will continue to put out light when needed.


This assumes the bulb itself causes the vast majority of failures, which is an assumption that doesn't hold.

Over the years I've owned, used (and seen) my share of cheapies, and the bulk of failures are in contact points, switches etc. And if you have the bad luck of a leaking alkaline battery, that'll worsen the problem. Of course alkalines are what's most often used in such lights... :shakehead Or mechanical damage 'cause you dropped the light one time too many... 

Case in point: a while ago I had this old bicycle light that used 4x AA batteries. I followed the current path, it was something like: switch contact > metal strip > - of batt. A > + of batt. A > metal strip > - of batt. B > + of batt. B > metal strip > pcb with LEDs on it > metal strip > - of batt. C > + of batt. C > metal strip > - of batt. D > + of batt. D > metal strip > 2nd switch contact. That's like 8 or 10 contact points, _none_ of them gold plated, and a failure of _any_ of these makes the light go out.

Cheap lights are often constructed like that, and that poor design is what makes 'em fail.

If a store-bought cheapie is built around a cheap switch, 3x AAA carrier using poor contact materials, and extra/unnecessary contact points between that and the light's head, you have something that's very likely to fail over time. Especially if there's alkalines in there.

If that store-bought cheapie is something along the lines of a Sipik SK68, with a gold-plated backside of the driver board, gold plated contact spring on the bottom, halfway decent switch, and you pop in a single AA lithium primary to sit in between, chances are it'll work when you need it. Even though it's got just as bad LED tint, beam shape and overall build quality as that other cheapie. LED or bulb, plastic or aluminium body makes little difference there.

For many things, I try the very cheapest thing first. When that fails, I move onto a version with good cost/value ratio. When that fails, I move onto a quality version. When that fails, I seek out the very best available (if I can afford it  ).

For some things, even the very best available isn't good enough. For quite a few things though, even the very cheapest is "good enough". I suppose with flashlights, it's like that for many people - those dollar store lights "do the job" (however poor :candle: ), and they simply don't make it to the next stage in price <-> quality spectrum.


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## rickypanecatyl (May 12, 2015)

Doc I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with you in anyway - I do appreciate your posts and thoughts. But I believe you are just plain wrong with the assertion that (2) "descent lights with you gives you a higher chance of having at least one working light compared to having just one "very reliable light."

Here's my experience as one who does "front line" work for an NGO in disaster/war areas. First for some perspective, I'm sleeping outdoors and away from internet/electricity/lights about 100 nights out of the year. I'm constantly in environments not nice to electrical items. Mud, water, rain, dust, sand and traveling in vehicles that vibrate more than most.

My most reliable light bar none over the past 6 years has been my custom Kevin Lamda 3D mag with potentiometer and SST90 dedomed LED bonded direct to copper. It be safe to guess to guess I've clicked it on and off at least an average of 5 times a day over the past 6 years so lets say 18,000 times. It has never once not come on, and the potentiometer has never once in that time not performed flawlessly. Rotate it to the left and click it on it will come on in a the sub .1 lumen firefly mode - never once any surprises there like getting a flashing strobe when you were trying to be discrete with your position. 
Turn it all the way to right and then click it on - it will always come on in max power. If the batteries are low, max power may not be the full 2,000+ Lumens but it will be max.My second place light doesn't hold a candle to the sun in comparison when it comes to reliability. 

I go thru lots of lights and one of the main reasons is giving them as gifts. Our NGO has a strict policy on NOT paying bribes which can be tough working in countries where it seems sometimes that is the only way to get things done. They frown upon giving "new" gifts but they are fine with us giving something used and personal. (No complaints - it's my policy!) Used flashlights do tend to make the best gifts!

After the Lambda I'd rank the other lights I've had from best to worst like this:

4 7's Maelstrom
Army tech predator
Sup beam knock off of the Thrunite Scorpion (forgot what it is called)
Sunway man
Zebra light
Thrunite
Olight
Eagletac
Fenix - 3 headlights all horrific; I had unusually good luck though with a TK15.
Nightcore
(and lots in between I don't remember and finally Xenon which I'll never forget at the very bottom.)

Going from the past, if it was absolutely critical I had light come on when I needed it to, there's a greater chance (3) 4 sevens, (2) Army techs and one supbeam will ALL fail to work at the same time than the Lambda light all by itself won't work. (Xenon takes the cake in that I bought 3 at one time that all worked on arrival and were all 3 broken within a day.)

On Benchpress the guy who maxes 400lbs once is far, far stronger than the guy who maxes out doing 200lbs twice.


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## rickypanecatyl (May 12, 2015)

RetroTechie said:


> Case in point: a while ago I had this old bicycle light that used 4x AA batteries. I followed the current path, it was something like: switch contact > metal strip > - of batt. A > + of batt. A > metal strip > - of batt. B > + of batt. B > metal strip > pcb with LEDs on it > metal strip > - of batt. C > + of batt. C > metal strip > - of batt. D > + of batt. D > metal strip > 2nd switch contact. That's like 8 or 10 contact points, _none_ of them gold plated, and a failure of _any_ of these makes the light go out.
> 
> Cheap lights are often constructed like that, and that poor design is what makes 'em fail.
> 
> I



Excellent point!


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## LGT (May 12, 2015)

Because some can't/ don't want to spend the money on "high end" lights. Two people I work with are still using their cheap, multi led harbor freight lights for the last five years. If it provides the light they require, good for them. If it stops working, they' ll buy another one, cheap. Whatever floats your boat. At least they're carrying or using a flashlight.


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## Willie (May 13, 2015)

rickypanecatyl said:


> That's some bad math there or perhaps I'm misunderstanding you? I realize that in 1 out of 100 failures vs 1 out of 10,000 failures per given incident, on the surface it would seem like the odds would be the same for 2 crelants to fail vs 1 haiku. But reality is so much different. Say for example the Crelant that was 100x more likely to fail, failed because of getting wet, when it rains on you, and your first crelant has already failed the odds of the second crelant failing are really high. It's not accurate to say Haiku has a 1 in 10,000 chance of failing, the Crelant 1 in 100 and thus 100 x 100 = 10,000 and so the odds of 2 crelants failing is the same as 1 Haiku failing.



Actually that is how it is done mathematically. If Crelant has 1 in 100 chance of failing then the chance of both of them failing is 1/100 x 1/100 = 1 in 10,000.


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## dc38 (May 13, 2015)

Willie said:


> Actually that is how it is done mathematically. If Crelant has 1 in 100 chance of failing then the chance of both of them failing is 1/100 x 1/100 = 1 in 10,000.



But every 1 in 100 fails, so 2 in 200 fail, so on so forth? Unless you mean both fail when carried in tandem...


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## leon2245 (May 13, 2015)

dc38 said:


> But every 1 in 100 fails, so 2 in 200 fail, so on so forth? Unless you mean both fail when carried in tandem...



What are the odds of a penny landing on heads?

What are the odds of two pennies both landing on heads?


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## scs (May 13, 2015)

1/2
1/4


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## Woods Walker (May 13, 2015)

rickypanecatyl said:


> I agree with you Woods Walker. If it wasn't obvious my long post above was more about venting than even trying to make a point - we were prepping to go from Burma to Iraq last week and I had 1 eagletac, 1 Fenix and 1 Xstar charger all go out within a few days of each other.
> 
> Real life certainly proves this statement from Doc false:
> 
> ...



I always try to be fair so there were mitigating factors. 

1. It was mostly sub zero with a low of -17F. We were out for days. These are hard core outdoorsmen. Only the strongest kit can keep up at times though Emerson is supposed to be sooooooooooooooooo great.

2. Spruce knots can be as hard as glass. 

3. The company did respond and re-profiled the blade.

On the negative. A 20 dollar Mora had no major issues with the same job.





On the topic of lights my HL30's batteries totally froze however it worked fine using the Lithium primaries backup within my kit but at the cost of low modes. Some fails aren't really the gear rather the application.


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## dc38 (May 14, 2015)

leon2245 said:


> What are the odds of a penny landing on heads?
> 
> What are the odds of two pennies both landing on heads?



It is either the light fails or it doesnt...those are odds. If 1 in 100 is guaranteed to fail, that isnt odds or probability...the 1/10000 probability is based on the statement "the NEXT one you get also fails" would qualify it as a probability.


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## Willie (May 14, 2015)

dc38 said:


> It is either the light fails or it doesnt...those are odds. If 1 in 100 is guaranteed to fail, that isnt odds or probability...the 1/10000 probability is based on the statement "the NEXT one you get also fails" would qualify it as a probability.



Every light has same reliability then. A Surefire either fails or it doesn't. A cheap China light either fails or it doesn't.

You buy a lottery ticket. What are your odds of winning? You either win or you don't. 50/50. You should play every week.


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## MidnightDistortions (May 14, 2015)

At least they have flashlights. I guess if you're that concerned they are not buying the right light, show off your collection to them or at least a few good lights. Sometimes the best thing you can do is to EDC a good light and a few people might ask you what kind of light it is and where they can get it. If they still go to the dollar store or get Maglites chances are they just want a flashlight and don't really care about the type. Besides Maglites, at least the LED Mags are great for flooding the room if you have it standing straight up. You can have another light for walking around/looking for stuff. I get pretty good runtimes on throwing in AA > D adapters (2AA per D adapter) too, gets me about 8-10 hours on a set of NiMH cells.


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## LetThereBeLight! (May 14, 2015)

Grijon said:


> I gifted each of my friends and family with a Fenix E01 along with a little writeup explaining the usefulness of a light in an emergency and the gentle request that they put the light on their keychain; the writeup also described the E01's benefits and the advantages of the lithium AAA I had installed for them, with the offer of cleaning and lubing the light and replacing the battery anytime they run it out. It is my hope that each of these people that I care about have the light on them (I have gotten positive feedback from several!) and my ulterior motive to maybe convert some into flashaholics. ...



You evil seducer, you!

haha


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## Grijon (May 15, 2015)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> You evil seducer, you!
> 
> haha



:laughing: I do what I can.lovecpf


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## rickypanecatyl (May 16, 2015)

Willie said:


> Actually that is how it is done mathematically. If Crelant has 1 in 100 chance of failing then the chance of both of them failing is 1/100 x 1/100 = 1 in 10,000.





> What are the odds of a penny landing on heads?



I know we're off topic but this is an important point. You are incorrect - that is NOT how it is done mathematically. I'm not saying that is bad math; I would say that is applying the wrong math.

I'm certainly no expert and don't know what is the right math - . The issue reminds me a bit of my dad who is a physicist trying to teach but he more confused me as a kid. I loved "jumping" as a kid and we'd all compete who could jump from the highest point onto land or water. My dad told me a piece of paper falls as fast as a lead cannon ball. I respectfully disagreed. He insisted. My brother had a canon that shot .60 caliber lead balls and as a 8 year old I gently tried to show my dad the error of his ways!  Of course the canon ball hit first. 
My dad had been adding a clause to his statements that I didn't understand, "in a vacuum." Now here is the subjective part of my understanding of that lesson. I got the impression that whatever that clause "in a vacuum" meant, for the most part objects on earth accelerate at 32 ft/sec2 and NOT being in a vacuum only slightly affected those numbers which for the most part were true. 
Of course reality is, "not being in a vacuum" massively affects those numbers. 
And the reason I take the time to mention that is kids smart in a physics classroom - who get all the right answers on questions of how long does it take object "x" to hit the ground from height "y," or motorcycle rider hitting a jump so long, at such an angle at such a speed on level ground to land etc. often have no idea how much the phrase "in a vacuum" affects the real world.

There are so many variables with flashlight reliability - and I don't know the "right" math - I just know yours is wrong!  Let me just give one extreme example to make a point.

Given: Reliable flashlight "R" in testing was clicked on and off 10,000 times with fresh batteries before it failed to come on. Cheap flashlight "C" in testing failed to come on after 100 clicks. 

Beginning of "Fuzzy" math: People said R light failed to come on one in 10,000 times; C light failed to come on 1 in 100 times. 
Getting fuzzier: Are 2 C lights as reliable as 1 R light because 100X100 = 10,000? Are 100 C lights as reliable as 1R light because R lights came on without fail 100X more than C light?

If all we know is how many times each were clicked on before they failed to come on we are missing a lot of info. However it would be asinine to believe that 2 cheap lights have as good of a chance of at least one of them coming on as your odds with 1 reliable light. 
One possible scenario... all 3 lights have been clicked on and off in practice and training approximately 95 times. The "real story" behind the "Given" numbers was the clickie switch in the cheap light tends to go out after about 100 clicks. Same is true for the reliable light but only after 10,000 clicks. In that scenario, c light has only 5% left of it's pitifully short, average life left and R light has 99.9% left of it's relatively long life.

Or perhaps you were carrying all 3 lights with you on a mission and crossed a river getting everything wet and C lights can't handle water at all but R lights can your 2 "C's" don't have a hope of competing with the "R" light in the important bottom line event of "Will at least 1 of my lights come on when I need it?"

Those are just 2 of a myriad of possible scenarios that could be behind the scenes practically. 

I'm feeling really off topic but I think the reason I bother to explain my post almost brings it around to the OP's post and agreeing with him... I'd like to see flashaholics more educated and spend more money on "quality" lights as opposed to supporting cheap junk.


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## masterP (May 16, 2015)

on the topic of reliability.... my friend that has a dollar store light on his AR15.....

we both go shooting together. if he has a gun that jams.....lets say 5 times out of 100 rounds, to him that's ok. it doesn't bother him that his gun is unreliable

to me a 5% failure rate is a POS that I gotta get rid of right away. I'll settle for no less than 100% reliability with anything I own

a $2 flashlight is going to fail at the most inopportune time. his logic is when it breaks I'll just go get another one, and when that one breaks I'll go get another one......and so on

I only want to buy once. and it's nice to know that you can drive over your flashlight or drop it in the river and it'll still work


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## Woods Walker (May 16, 2015)

masterP said:


> I'll settle for no less than 100% reliability with anything I own



Then you must own nothing. 100% reliability isn't really possible given entropy. Striving for reliability over wiz bang is good IMHO.


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## rickypanecatyl (May 16, 2015)

masterP said:


> on the topic of reliability.... my friend that has a dollar store light on his AR15.....
> 
> we both go shooting together. if he has a gun that jams.....lets say 5 times out of 100 rounds, to him that's ok. it doesn't bother him that his gun is unreliable
> 
> to me a 5% failure rate is a POS that I gotta get rid of right away.




I agree... it's an extreme example but once again think of a parachute. I travel too much too and hate having to chose between ditching broken electronics or carting worthless stuff around with me in the hopes that maybe they'll honor their warranty when I get back to civilization. 



Another random reliability thought... I had a cheap flashlight/stun gun combo I got at one of our night markets here. The stun gun part was the bezel and worked impressively about 2/3 of the time you pushed the button.
I almost always carry my light in a left side sap pocket and have my knife in a right side sap pocket. I was in a pharmacy about a year ago when someone came in with a huge knife/small sword to rob the place. It's not really a part of the story but as I was reviewing possible options I remembered I had the "stun gun flashlight" in my pocket. It made me laugh out loud as using it certainly wasn't one of the option that I was even close to considering.

So here is the interesting though I had from that... I would never use an unreliable product for self defense... not going to take the chance that exposing myself getting it out under duress and everything working smoothly but still having a 1/3 chance it wont stun. However as I was thinking about the practical use of such a product I realized it'd be fine for torturing someone or antagonizing someone. But unreliable products are good for defense. Or in other words, unreliable products are good for bad, evil people to do bad deeds but not good for good citizens to defend themselves.


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## RetroTechie (May 17, 2015)

Willie said:


> Actually that is how it is done mathematically. If Crelant has 1 in 100 chance of failing then the chance of both of them failing is 1/100 x 1/100 = 1 in 10,000.


I agree with rickypanecatyl here. A shorter form of his story: math is done like that, if those probabilities are *independent*, and randomly distributed over time. Which in most cases, is not the case.

Let's take this example: "if you run this bulb for 1000 hours, it has a 50% chance of failing".

Now run 2 of those bulbs for 1000 hours. Will there be a 25% chance both survive? All else being equal, yes. But... if a 2 kV power surge hits those 2 bulbs when they're 5 hours in, mostly likely they'll both die.

How about repeating the experiment 10 times using the same bulb? Will you have 0.5^10 = 0.00098 (0.1%) chance it will survive? Nope... when it's built to last 1000 hours, it may get to 1500, or 2000. 10,000 hours in it'll almost certainly be dead, regardless how likely it is to die in the first 1000 hours.

If you get a million of them, and see how many of them fail in the first 500 hours, and in the 500 hours after that, will that be the same? Again: nope, some will be DOA, and this will drive up the 'dead count' for the first 500h (Google "bathtub curve"). After 500h aging effects set in, which makes probability for the 2nd 500h different from that of the 1st 500h.

Likewise: if you keep 2 flashlights in the same place, there is much that is _not_ independent between them. If both lights' cooling is poorly designed, they may survive fine in a cool climate. Bring 'em to a hot place, and they may fail both in short order. Same with LEDs, water entry, batteries used, vibration, etc, etc. So the simple 1 in 100 -> 1 in 10,000 premise we started with, simply doesn't apply because _that_ math depends on conditions which aren't met. Better use _that_ math for predicting coin flips...


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## Willie (May 18, 2015)

rickypanecatyl said:


> I know we're off topic but this is an important point. You are incorrect - that is NOT how it is done mathematically. I'm not saying that is bad math; I would say that is applying the wrong math.
> 
> *I'm certainly no expert and don't know what is the right math *- . The issue reminds me a bit of my dad who is a physicist trying to teach but he more confused me as a kid. I loved "jumping" as a kid and we'd all compete who could jump from the highest point onto land or water. My dad told me a piece of paper falls as fast as a lead cannon ball. I respectfully disagreed. He insisted. My brother had a canon that shot .60 caliber lead balls and as a 8 year old I gently tried to show my dad the error of his ways!  Of course the canon ball hit first.
> My dad had been adding a clause to his statements that I didn't understand, "in a vacuum." Now here is the subjective part of my understanding of that lesson. I got the impression that whatever that clause "in a vacuum" meant, for the most part objects on earth accelerate at 32 ft/sec2 and NOT being in a vacuum only slightly affected those numbers which for the most part were true.
> ...




You could have just typed the part I bolded. Nothing more needed to be said.


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## leon2245 (May 18, 2015)

^



dc38 said:


> *It is either the light fails or it doesnt...those are odds. If 1 in 100 is guaranteed to fail, that isnt odds or probability.*..the 1/10000 probability is based on the statement "the NEXT one you get also fails" would qualify it as a probability.




Well that's a tautology. The 1/100, 1/10000's etc. are actually expressions of different odds. Idk what your trying to say with the rest of it. 

All I was doing with the pennies example, I was just demonstrating with a simple example you'd know intuitively, for anyone who didn't understand the relationship between any two events' odds of each happening vs. the probability of those two events both happening.




Willie said:


> Every light has same reliability then. A Surefire either fails or it doesn't. A cheap China light either fails or it doesn't.
> 
> You buy a lottery ticket. What are your odds of winning? You either win or you don't. 50/50. You should play every week.



& I would make a great weatherman: Well folks, as you can see here with this front moving toward the coastline, it's looking like our probability of rain for the weekend is "It'll either rain or it won't." Lol.


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## MrJino (May 18, 2015)

I think most people do not have a need for high quality flashlights.

I went years on cheap gas station lights, it's just I wanted better.


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## masterP (May 18, 2015)

MrJino said:


> I think most people do not have a need for high quality flashlights.
> 
> I went years on cheap gas station lights, it's just I wanted better.




fair enough...... I just don't want one of those $2 flashlights when I have to change my tire in the middle of nowhere, or trying to read house numbers in the dark to find an address, or when you hear someone coming into your back yard that doesn't belong there


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## Mr Floppy (May 19, 2015)

I don't know about some others but the 3xAAA ones with a carrier sometimes make good hosts for 18500 cells. I've used one as a host for a C battery and a joule thief too. The 10mm LED cost more than the light. 

The quality of the $hit$hop lights are getting better where I am. 9 LED shower heads seems to be out and replaced with lenses and unknown 0.5W leds. Still have dodgy clickies and the anodising flakes off so maybe the quality isn't that much better.


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## markr6 (May 19, 2015)

LOL showerhead. Some people just don't care or know what else is out there.

I bought my dad a Fenix E11 when they were popular. Great little light and easy UI for him to work. What does he bring every time we go hunting/camping together? A big plastic 2C Rayovac from 1985, a Columbia cigarette-charger type light (gift set junk) and a $15 headlamp with they typical blue LEDs.


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## Woods Walker (May 19, 2015)

rickypanecatyl said:


> Doc I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with you in anyway - I do appreciate your posts and thoughts. But I believe you are just plain wrong with the assertion that (2) "descent lights with you gives you a higher chance of having at least one working light compared to having just one "very reliable light."
> 
> Here's my experience as one who does "front line" work for an NGO in disaster/war areas. First for some perspective, I'm sleeping outdoors and away from internet/electricity/lights about 100 nights out of the year. I'm constantly in environments not nice to electrical items. Mud, water, rain, dust, sand and traveling in vehicles that vibrate more than most.
> 
> ...



As for the benchpress form matters. Go all the way down, let it sit for a micro second then fully extend. So many people do a 1/2 motion so they can have more on the bar. I see you ranked Armytek as number 2 and Fenix headlamps second to last. To me this shows the variable nature of failure. The only failure I had with a Fenix headlamp was water intrusion on one used heavily for years. Put it on the heater overnight and the water cleared up. The light still works. But Armytek on the other hand is another issue. I just got two of them. One is attached to my Kifaru Pointman being evaluated for possible inclusion within my kit. The Viking came defective out of the box. It flickers badly during mode changes and on momentary. Sometimes it doesn't respond to a tailcap click at all though that issue is more intermediate. I suspect the tail cap is broken as an exchange with my Predictor's tail cap seems to clear up the problem though when dealing with flashlight issues detective work can lead to wrong conclusions. In any case the Viking is going back to be hopefully exchanged for a working one. So despite Armytek clams of 50 miles under the sea and dropped from a flaming volcano none of that matters if it flickers and sometimes won't turn on just out of the box. Failure rate for me is 50%. Some years ago I purchased a 4 pack of cheap LED lights from Home Depot. One of the 4 failed out of the package. I don't remember the exact cost but I don't think it was more than 2 bucks per light. Armytek is considerably more. Lower failure rate with the 2 dollar lights out of the box. That's the bottom line right now marketing and fan base not withstanding. This view may change in the future but that's it right now.

Lets move on to my friend I was talking about earlier. He did purchase a 4/7 turbo in AA based on my recommendation from Going Gear when they had a sale some years ago. The light was dropped on the job about a week later. Due to the cost he could only afford one. Remember there is strength in numbers. This brings me back to the shower head LED lights he purchased. There was maybe 6 or more of them. It has been a rough few years for my friend beyond the lost of the 4/7 Turbo I found his wife on Match.com. The problem was they were married at the time. How brazen is that? I showed my buddy her profile and apparently she is a cheater. A nasty divorce later he is now in an apartment, she has the house and kids. Well he does have visitation and some weekends. However despite all of that next to the silverware in his new apartment was 2 of those cheap shower head lights and they worked. Strength in numbers.


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## ShayAllen (May 19, 2015)

Hey, those Dorcy AAA lights are good enough for almost anything you want to do indoors.


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