# Incan vs LED?



## LiteTheWay (Mar 28, 2007)

Being a new member here (but not a new lurker) I notice thast there are usually about 4 to 5 times as many viewing the LED forum as are viewing the Incan forum? 

Is this a reflection (no pun intended) of the interest in LED vs Incan lights?


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## mdocod (Mar 28, 2007)

I spend more time over here. I own some powerful LEDs, and they don't even come close to incans in punch power. I guess more people are interested over there because there are always more advancements, as well as many more new LED lights coming out than there are incans... incan is a slower moving crowd I suppose.


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## Lobo (Mar 28, 2007)

As Mdocod said, it happens more stuff in the LEDworld, especially, development is going really fast with almost new exciting lights every week. 

And it's easier to be impressed by LEDs. The white beam, the brightness at close distance, the runtimes, regulation, different modes etc. 

Incans is maybe a bit more of a required taste, people realise sooner or later that they still have it's place. I love LEDs, they are the main reason for why I joined this forum, but for some tasks, incans still rule. For instance I use a big cheap lantern when boatfishing at night, no LED of mine is close to beat it. On the other hand, they are a fraction of it's size, but you get my point.


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## Techmedic (Mar 28, 2007)

I agree with Mdocod. 

LED's are a rapidly evolving technology that can also be controlled by electronics giving more features, run time, etc..

Incans suffer from runtime compared to LED's. The size/weight/performance ratios are getting better all the time with the evolving LED's and are therefore very interesting.

I prefer an incan when I am outdoors and while working EMS for colour rendition.

Incans are getting better also due to the advancements in battery technology, providing a flatter discharge curve that delivers whiter hotter light for the entire typical run time. Older alkaline powered incans operated at below optimum level for almost 90% of the batteries useful life, which is what most people remember of incans; the sickly yellow light coming from lights of yesteryear. 

Neither technology is perfect; both have drawbacks and advantages, with the trick being to match the light to the purpose and a user's expectations keeping in mind that flashaholics cannot have the best of both worlds in one type of technology. 

For example LED's are best suited:
-longer runtimes
-when specific colours are required (red/blue/IR)
-regulation is a side effect of the requirement that the forward voltage of LED's is typically different to the battery being used to drive it

Incans are best suited:
-for intense white colour correct lighting
-better throw (distances)
-shorter durations (typically)
-blinding effect in darkness

Enjoy them all!


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## XtreMe_G (Mar 28, 2007)

you also cant burn paper or light up a cigarette with LEDs


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## Lobo (Mar 28, 2007)

XtreMe_G said:


> you also cant burn paper or light up a cigarette with LEDs


 
I really most do that mod just for the reason the next time a girl asks, "Got a light?".


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## woodrow (Mar 28, 2007)

I have got rid of all mine - gl4550lm several surefires ect...now I am looking for another one. I was really sad when I found out the PT Torrent 8AA incan could not be used with Lithiums. I guess I will just keep looking. I agree with the above posts. While I am much more excited about the new generation of leds, Incans do have their place in every flashlight lovers collection.


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## LiteTheWay (Mar 28, 2007)

Must agree with all of the above. If I am out trying to chase possums out of my fruit trees, no LED can do the job compared with my big, heavy 12v 55-75W floodlights which weigh a ton. but for most purposes, my LEDs are great and much smaller.


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## LiteTheWay (Mar 28, 2007)

But other than for these, I have basiaclly got rid of all my incans too so I am like woodrow in that.


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## m1ruf (Mar 28, 2007)

Just copied that from another thread, think it fits in here better:

Its just a matter of time that the next generations of LEDs can surpass the brighter incandescents (SF M6, MAG-mods and the like).
Now modern LED-lights like the Fenix Crees and latley the Huntlight Cree already rival if not surpass traditional incans (P 60 style bulbs and better)?
I'm already contemplating whether my SF G2Z might be useless in the future?
I mean you can't upgrade it with any current Cree-dropins because of its plastic body (can't take the heat).

We'll see where the whole "ship" is going but ultimatley its a good thing that LEDs are getting brighter and tougher by the month now!:goodjob:

I'm yet hesitating to buy any of the new Cree lights, cause if LEDs are going to develop in the pace they are developing now, any of the current Cree lights will be outdated by the end of the year!
I'm wondering if this rush in LED-technology might continue this fast for much longer (dunno if I'm talking about years or decades here!)

Some time ago P 60 style incans were the top of the game (for edc use) and you could expect them to stay there for quite a long time. Few thought it possible for LED- technology to develop like it did and still does today.

I also agree that for sheer "bang for the buck power" you can't beat the cheapo 55W/12V spotlights right now (yet?)

Just my 2€ cents


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## ScooterBug (Mar 29, 2007)

i have 3 incans i will never part with e2e, z2 and my A2. all my other lights are LED and i like them. i have a few, mostly AA models and keep on getting new ones. i have a special place for my incans.


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## mdocod (Mar 29, 2007)

> I mean you can't upgrade it with any current Cree-dropins because of its plastic body (can't take the heat).



as LEDs improve, this will be less of an issue, as the electric to light conversion gets better, the amount of heat will be less and less, eventually a plastic light will be able to run 5W LEDs with no heat issues, because the LED will only need to dissipate a fraction of a watt in heat... this is still a few years down the road, but we will get there eventually.


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## Illum (Mar 29, 2007)

its the CREE rage from the Luxeon/CS nichia stage...
LED technology has broken many records since their arrival.

Incandescents have typically stayed the same...with the exception of creativity generated in modded hotwires that usually formed the cornerstone of the incandescant forum.


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## Cerbera (Mar 29, 2007)

I thought about going into LED to replace my Z2, but I just happen to stay with incans. Sure they are not advancing as fast as LEDs, but they are generally cheaper. Compare the price of a HO-4 with a WE Cree XR-E P4. Although the WE will have a longer runtime, I personally think one HO-4 should be good for a couple of years. My 1185 bulb has probably seen more than 20 hours of operation and "theoretically" it should have died(I think).

That's how I feel. I do agree that with LEDs changing rapidly, I think it would start a new addiction to get "the best." Its the same with computer's, but I've barely managed to tame that problem


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## js (Mar 29, 2007)

Yes. The 4 to 5 (or higher) ratio of viewers in the LED vs. Incan forum is indeed a reflection of the amount of interest in, and enthusiasm for, LED's vs. Incans--at least in terms of online interest, anyway.

For a discussion of incan vs. LED, see What is the point for incandescent???!?!?!?!111 as it is currently the most complete thread discussing the issue.

One comment here and now, though: incan can be electronically regulated (SF A2, for example).


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## MikeSalt (Mar 29, 2007)

I have mainly LED lights, but I'm REALLY looking forward to buying some incandescents. My 6D MagLite is looking at me longingly for a ROP upgrade. I already have the Mag-Charger glass lens (window, if we're being pedanTIC) and an FM aluminium reflector on the way. And, luckily, just found a 6 x D cell battery charger at home, so all I need now are 6 x D rechargable cells and the Pelican bulbs.


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## 2xTrinity (Mar 29, 2007)

Cerbera said:


> I thought about going into LED to replace my Z2, but I just happen to stay with incans. Sure they are not advancing as fast as LEDs, but they are generally cheaper. Compare the price of a HO-4 with a WE Cree XR-E P4. Although the WE will have a longer runtime, I personally think one HO-4 should be good for a couple of years. My 1185 bulb has probably seen more than 20 hours of operation and "theoretically" it should have died(I think).


Well, cheaper Cree LED lights can be found. For example, Dealextreme.com has drop-in modules for under $14 shipped (for 18650/2xCR123). They also have some fairly decent Cree lights out of the box, such as the C2 Clone for $24.

Right now the major advantage that incandescent has is color rendering, and color temperature -- good hotwires those run hot, and whiter than typical household bulbs, as they don't need to have thousdands of hours of life. Also, since incandescent is blackbody radiator, it inherently projects a broad spectrum. The other major advatnage of this over the typical cool white LEDs is that blue light gets scattered more in the fog, so incan will perform better in wet conditions. 

There are some neutral and warm white LEDs, but it's hard to buy them as a hobbyist for the time being. I suspect these will be a lot more widespread once LEDs get efficient enough to be adopted for home use. Also, some ultra high color rendering LEDs with multiple phosphors have been tested in labs, to have CRI of 95-98 in various color temp (CRI is a measure of how closely a light source matches a blackbody/incandescent source of the same color temperature). Once these hit the market, it should be possibel to see LEDs that are almost indistinguishable from incandescent. Those will be great for home use, but I suspect this is still several years away.

The big advantage I think of the incandescnt is that they can handle much higher power -- a compact 50W bulb is no problem, and can be focused easily. While a multi LED array could match the lumen output, it won't be able to get the same throw, not even close. HID is even better for lumen output and throw, but has its own drawbacks, such as warm-up time, and inability to be cycled off and on frequently. Complexity is also high as it requires a high voltage ballast to start and maintain an arc.

Finally, a big advantage of LEDs is the ability to have multiple levels of output. Dimming an incandescent bulb is very inefficient, as incan must be hot to be most efficient -- the more it is dimmed, the less efficient it gets. LEDs are the other way around, the more they are dimmed, the more efficient they get (due to less heating). Also, LEDs will work on a very low current. On soem of my direct drive lights, I can see the die light up noticeably just from the current conducting _through my finger_ as I change the battery! The fact that it's possible to get anything from >200 lumens for an hour or two, to <10 lumens for days on end from the same light is something that just can't be done with incandescent.


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## Alteran (Mar 31, 2007)

That's a good point! Yes, incandescents can be regulated, but not as well as LEDs. Because of LEDs working better at lower powers, and the opposite for incandascent, I forsee that in true high-output uses, incandescents will rule until LEDs get much more efficient, so as to produce less heat. However, I find LEDs far better for everyday use, as I rarely need more than the 110-130 lumens I get out of my T5.


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## cutlerylover (Mar 31, 2007)

Thats the thing, right now Incandescents rule the lumen war which we all love...but for EDC not everyone needs that much light, I LOVE my mag85 but its for fun I can't imagine walking the house with it at night...I tried it once and I walked pass my mirror and almost went blind, lol...So brighter is not always better...I think LED's will be a much harder competitor in the future...


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 31, 2007)

I started with LED's and quickly realized that most of them are very similar. They have their characteristic bluish white color and diffuse beam that works fine inside. Once I go outside, LED's are pathetic and nearly worthless. 

Once LED's start getting up to 800-1200 lumens, and can be focussed with a nice throwing reflector, I'll look at them. I can't imagine getting any more than the 5-6 LED lights I have, including the SF L2, Fenix P1D-CE....I find it silly to see people getting excited about 60 to 200 lumen small LED lights. At one point, I thought the SF M6 was the best small light I could ever get....man, was I wrong...really happy I didn't waste the money on it. Once I got into quality Maglite mods, I never looked back.


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## cnjl3 (Mar 31, 2007)

I have an M6 and not once have i thought that i have wasted my money.
In fact it is the best incandescent i have bought because it is built to last.
I am currently using JS recommended MN15 bulb which gives over 2hours of 
over 200 lumens and not to mention the MN21/MN20 combination which yields more runtime than any of your D size incandescent MAG mods? 
The M6 also just plain looks better than the MAG host
I see that AWR just shipped some more HDM6s packs and i dont think i am to far down the list so hopefully pretty soon i will be able to add additional run time to both the MN21 & especially the MN20.
Just goes so to show you - that variety truly is the spice of life.





LuxLuthor said:


> At one point, I thought the SF M6 was the best small light I could ever get....man, was I wrong...really happy I didn't waste the money on it. Once I got into quality Maglite mods, I never looked back.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 1, 2007)

Oh I am well aware of many that are thrilled about the M6...and they are certainly entitled to their opinions....I just don't share them. 

I don't see that the low lumen output with the M6 MN15 bulb is worth using. It is more than you need indoors, and not enough to see things well outside. The high output M6 bulb is respectable outside, but very few have a rechargeable solution for the light that will work out long term. 

Maybe you enjoy contributing $$$ to SF's clever 123 battery scheme, but not me. Let's assume one of these years that everyone gets their M6 battery packs from AWR....now what happens when one of them fails or uses up its recharge life? Back to the AWR 3 year wishing well? Good luck with that.

Back to LED's, I don't see any LED's as having adequate lumens to use outside effectively, including the Cree. They can light the path right in front of you, but that's not what I need outside.

While it is obviously true that most LED's have long run times, I have NEVER been in a situation where I need to use a light non-stop for 2 hours. My lights outside are on and off, and even with a number of 2 hour walks/activities, I have never used up a maglite that supposedly has only a 30 min run time before getting home and putting it back on the charger. Unless you are using it for days at a time without a way to recharge it, I don't buy the longer run time argument of LED's or the M6 (assuming you have a workable rechargeable long term solution) as a justification.

I will give you the point of the M6 looking nice....but not nice enough to justify its price, lack of rechargeable solution, expensive bulbs, and long delays in SF service response to consider it a worthwhile light. Of course that's just my opinion...and I'm glad I never got one.


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## Cerbera (Apr 1, 2007)

I agree with Lux and whenever WE release the M-300 Lion, the M6 has something to worry about. Almost the same design, but the WE has 300 or 400 lumens of light with 3x 168A or 18650 Li-ion batteries to power it for supposedly 100 minutes. With a price under $200, I think its better than buying a $250-$300 dollar host and spending more money on the modifications.


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## knightrider (Apr 1, 2007)

Recently had an incident outside the house in the alley. Wanted to see if anything was going on. My SF L5 didn't throw far enough down the alley to illuminate what was going on. I felt unprepared. Had to get an incandescent to be able to get some throw for such situations. Got an M6 and it throws down the whole alley now! I'm very happy and much better prepared. But leds really do a great job indoors, so each has a specific purpose for me.

I've tried the new crees in 3 different forms and haven't been super impressed with outdoor throw. Maybe the new L1 will throw better, but I think the incans will still out-throw it. I think the led has quite a lot of ground to cover before taking the lead with throw.


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## carrot (Apr 1, 2007)

What it looks like to me is that a lot of people come to CPF after seeing or buying the new LED lights, and feel that they are so advanced over Incandescent (which is "useless") because they are used to the poor output of Maglites, etc. But it seems to me that for most people the hobby comes full circle when they notice the high output hotwires and more advanced incans like the A2 and decide to give them a shot. Maybe I don't have my fingers on the pulse of CPF, but I think this is what it is.


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## s.duff (Apr 1, 2007)

Incan just doesn' "wow" me like they used to. I still dig the Mag mods and love my Mag85 and ROP, but aside from those, I never really reach for incan anymore. I really prefer the runtime and durability of an LED over an incan bulb, and with new technology the outhrowability of incan doesn't seem to be as much of an issue. I think Surefire saying that they are pretty much done with incan says alot as well.


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## Drew (Apr 1, 2007)

Both technologies have there place. Time will tell if the LED replaces the incan completely . I have my doubts.
Larger heavier incans with shorter run times are great for shedding a lot of light on a situation for a short time. 
LEDs are better suited to smaller packages with surprising output for size/runtime. Bulb failure becomes much less of an issue with LED. I know LEDs are supposed to last forever and I have yet to have one fail while driven within spec but nothing is perfect. 

For the average joe flashlight user either technology works well and it is a matter of taste or preference. However the guys that depend on lights for their life and the lives of others I think would benefit from a bright incan rechargeable etc primary carry and a small back-up led that uses primary batteries. Real emergencies have occurred in recent years that have shown the shortfall of incan rechargeables. 9/11 and Katrina come to mind. After the first 45minutes to 1 hour it was lights out for the standard rechargeable duty lights. Once you enter total darkness even a simple $1 photon can become priceless.


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## golden_creature (Apr 1, 2007)

incans are not dead.gc.


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## greenLED (Apr 1, 2007)

It's been that way since I joined a couple of years back.


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## AndyTiedye (Apr 1, 2007)

There is a lot of interest in LEDs because LEDs are undergoing very rapid gains in power and efficiency and now seem to be following Moore's law.
They have overtaken other light sources in some areas, and will eventually do so in nearly all of them, due to high efficiency, long lifetime, and low cost.
Flashlights are only a leading edge of this. It will be really interesting to watch LEDs take over fixed lighting.
At a time when energy costs have no place to go but up, this is a big deal.


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## defusion (Apr 1, 2007)

incans still rule for "tactical" (high intensity, low runtime) use, and have some advantages with their color rendition (most often usefull for outdoor use).
As a daily carry, mostly for indoor use, i much prefer a LED.

As for tactical use, i have to say that i think multiple LED setups can be just as effective as incans with increased runtime, but i don't know how practical this is, or how large a head you would need for decent output.

Something like the surefire M3 with a tripple/quad high intensity SSC P4 in a standard size head would be perfect, but no such thing exists (yes, milkymod, but i mean as a factory standard).


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## js (Apr 1, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Oh I am well aware of many that are thrilled about the M6...and they are certainly entitled to their opinions....I just don't share them.
> 
> I don't see that the low lumen output with the M6 MN15 bulb is worth using. It is more than you need indoors, and not enough to see things well outside. The high output M6 bulb is respectable outside, but very few have a rechargeable solution for the light that will work out long term.



The 200 lumens of the MN15 in the M6 head is more than adequate output and throw for outdoor use. I can see things VERY well with my M6 running the MN15. In fact, I find I can get by pretty well with the A2's 75 lumens, as long as I don't need to see too far afield.

I've said this many times before, and I'll say it again: sometimes less is more. If you can keep some of the dark adaption of your eyes--i.e. prevent your pupils from contracting too much due to nearfield brightness--then 200 lumens is way more than enough. This means you don't shine the hotspot at your feet and stare into it. If you needed to see something that close, you'd use the spill light, or use the beam indirectly in some other way.

If you're just walking out to the mailbox and back, or around the backyard, and you never let your eyes get dark adapted, then yes, I agree, you'd need more light, and a wider, floodier beam.

But if you're out in the field for any length of time, or out in an urban setting, the 200 lumens, and beam profile of the MN15 is pretty darn good.



> Maybe you enjoy contributing $$$ to SF's clever 123 battery scheme, but not me.



This is nonsense. For years, SureFire was using the 123's as a loss leader. Not only were they not making any money on them, THEY WERE LOSING MONEY.



> Let's assume one of these years that everyone gets their M6 battery packs from AWR....now what happens when one of them fails or uses up its recharge life? Back to the AWR 3 year wishing well? Good luck with that.



I agree that AWR track record is not one that speaks of his reliability. And I agree that if you are looking for a rechargeable light, and have dismissed 123's, then the M6 is not the light you want.

However, there are other rechargeable options for the M6, even right now, available right now: see another M6-R for more information. But in short, you use Powerizer R123's and the MN60 or MN61 lamp. BEWARE, however! You must use caution with unprotected Li-ion cells. See thread for details.

And there will be another rechargeable M6 solution in the future IF Andrew doesn't come through with the HD-M6 packs.



> Back to LED's, I don't see any LED's as having adequate lumens to use outside effectively, including the Cree. They can light the path right in front of you, but that's not what I need outside.
> 
> While it is obviously true that most LED's have long run times, I have NEVER been in a situation where I need to use a light non-stop for 2 hours. My lights outside are on and off, and even with a number of 2 hour walks/activities, I have never used up a maglite that supposedly has only a 30 min run time before getting home and putting it back on the charger. Unless you are using it for days at a time without a way to recharge it, I don't buy the longer run time argument of LED's or the M6 (assuming you have a workable rechargeable long term solution) as a justification.
> 
> I will give you the point of the M6 looking nice....but not nice enough to justify its price, lack of rechargeable solution, expensive bulbs, and long delays in SF service response to consider it a worthwhile light. Of course that's just my opinion...and I'm glad I never got one.



If it isn't worth the price for you, then you won't buy it! And that's fine.

But, please understand that the M6 is expensive not because it is "nice looking". It is expensive because it is a quality light, that is very rugged, and very well made, with one of the best beams you can get from any light made. The shock isolated turbo head alone is a very sophisticated and expensive piece of equipment, that does it's job very, very well. And the MB20 battery holder is also an extremely well made component. And the LOTC is also very rugged, reliable, and ergonomic.

As for 123's, if you're out in the field for days or weeks at a time (and most of us AREN'T in that situation) then rechargeable lights are stupid. How do you recharge them? 123's on the other hand are light, and pack quite a lot of energy for their mass, more than even Li-ion cells. Plus they perform pretty well for primary cells at low and high temperatures and have a very long shelf life.

For me, I love the feel and action of the M6. I can activate the light with or without gloves, and without having to roll it around in my hand to find the switch. It's always right in the center of the rear of the light, and can easily be activated even with puffy mittens. Plus I can lock it out for travel or storage.

I love the beam of the M6. It is smooth, wide enough, with decent spill, yet it also throws very well.

I love the versatility of the M6. I can run the MN21 630 lumen lamp, the MN20 400 lumen lamp, or the MN15 200 lumen lamp. I can have 20 minutes, or 60 minutes, or 2.5 hours of runtime.

I love the ruggedness of the M6. I never worry about dropping or knocking the light. I never worry about breaking the filament when this happens. My bed, with me in it, fell right on top of the LOTC once--yet the switch was unharmed and I haven't noticed any difference since then. It's a tough light.

I love the HA and the pyrex lens and the grippiness of the body.

And, truly, I love that it runs on primary 123's. A $100 or $150 buys a lot of 123's, and I never worry about over discharging them or about them losing charge from sitting around, or about them failing, like I would worry with something like the HD-M6.

Are you paying a lot of money per lumen when compared to a mag mod? Hell yes!!! Is it worth it? Hell yes!!! (In my opinion, and for my uses, anyway).

The M6 is not just a pretty light. It's a very serious, high performance light. Not everyone needs it, or wants it, but for some of us, it's the cat's meow!


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 2, 2007)

Like I said, I understand there are those that like the M6, and are glad they bought one. I'm glad I never bought one, and never will.

As you know, when I first joined CPF's I only had an L2, and came close to getting one when I was reading about your rechargeable solution...then that fell apart. I made the mistake of buying an M4 and watched it bleed through 123's like a siphon from my checking account into the SF coffers. At several members urging, I drifted into FiveMega's Maglite mods, and have never thought about the M6 since then.

Many Maglite mods put the M6 to shame, and in various combinations have tremendous throw and 2-3 times the output. I don't think the M6 beam pattern is perfect because I like a light with throw rather than a diffuse floodlight beam outside. I'm not crazy about stippled/OP reflectors in general for that matter. I have seen tons of beamshots to know how it looks.

I don't agree with you about the 123 batteries at $1.75 a clip x 6 = $11_ (I added 50 cents for an occasional < $99 order shipping charge)_ for 20 lousy minutes of MN21 500 lumen output. *That works out to $33/hr !!!! With only 12 hours of use yo**u have exceeded the original $400 purchase price in 123 batteries !!!!* 

The only answer is you have to unscrew your light and put in the MN20 bulb and now pretend that you are happy with 250 lumens, and only spending $130 for a lousy 12 hours of light. IMHO, that is called a racket...not to mention how many brighter maglites I have that last way longer than that. How anyone can defend that 123 ripoff is beyond me...and clearly you and I will never see eye to eye on that one point.

I also don't agree that 200L (or 250L from MN20) is enough for most of my outside uses. It is enough for illuminating the ground right in front of you, and if you even look at that 200L pattern it will also interrupt your rhodopsin formation for night vision. So again, I just don't agree with you, and I have some 250L lights, and they are inadequate. While eventually if you are extra careful not to look right at the beam in front of you, and you have been outside for 20-45 minutes for night vision adaptation, then you can get by with less lumens. 

However, I want a light to show me what I need to see...and do not think it is relevant to interject needing to combine your night vision adaptation into the performance equation....so you can justify even an A2's measley 75L for outside use. 

I'm talking about going from inside to outside and being able to see readily, easily, and into the distance. I want a light that enables me to assess obstacles, threats, or targets. A stippled reflector with 200L won't do that.

Obviously $400 buys a nice rugged light, as well it should. Honestly, although I can appreciate well made things, I don't need the "shock isolated turbo head alone is a very sophisticated and expensive piece of equipment" level of features. I don't drop my maglites outside, and I have the ability to take care of my lights so they are not abused. I also like the feel of my maglights, especially the 1D, 1.5D, and 2D models. I have no problem turning them on or off with their distinctive side click buttons.

I find they are infinitely more adaptable, upgradeable, versatile, and there is a wide array of affordable parts, bulbs, batteries available from many sources. 

I will never agree that paying an outrageous amount per lumen per minute is a good thing...however you try to frame the argument.


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## Flash Harry (Apr 2, 2007)

Losing our way here?

I like both and I use both. As my Nana used to say, "Horses for courses". My wife loves her L2P and I don't go out at night without an overpowered FM. Both of us have all the boxes ticked and swap on a regular basis.

A Flashaholic's life is good.


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## LiteTheWay (Apr 2, 2007)

Yes, but unless you want to burn something down, can't an LED (albeit an expensive one) just about do it all. Other than for the 'spotlight' uses I mentioned above.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 2, 2007)

7histology said:


> Yes, but unless you want to burn something down, can't an LED (albeit an expensive one) just about do it all. Other than for the 'spotlight' uses I mentioned above.



No. That is my point separate from my personal opinion about the M6.

You have to get some of the Maglite Mods to see what I'm talking about. LED's are nice inside, and for those that have not used powerful incandescent lights and/or spotlights, they just don't know. There are many beamshots that illustrate it. I'm not talking about the Torch mods that put out 4200 lumens...I'm talking about the maglites that put out 700-1500L


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## 2xTrinity (Apr 2, 2007)

JS: note, I'm not trying to put down your light at all, just want to point out how the versatility of well-designed modular incandescent flashlights compare to the versatility of multi-level LED flashlights:



> As for 123's, if you're out in the field for days or weeks at a time (and most of us AREN'T in that situation) then rechargeable lights are stupid. How do you recharge them? 123's on the other hand are light, and pack quite a lot of energy for their mass, more than even Li-ion cells. Plus they perform pretty well for primary cells at low and high temperatures and have a very long shelf life.


This actually brings up yet another big advantage of LEDs -- due to the fact that they can run on a fairly wide range of currents, designing a regulator that will operate the light on either an 18650 rechargeable, or 2xCR123 (either 3.0V primary or 3.6V rechargeable) is rapidly becoming a standard. Most of the time I use rechargeable 18650 given the choice, but we have a couple of LED lights that we have left in the vehicles for emergency use with primary CR123s, due to shelf life. Also, for an extended trip, I'd opt to bring some CR123s.



> I love the versatility of the M6. I can run the MN21 630 lumen lamp, the MN20 400 lumen lamp, or the MN15 200 lumen lamp. I can have 20 minutes, or 60 minutes, or 2.5 hours of runtime.


Again, another advantage of the LED lights is that this sort of versatility is possible at the push of a button -- for example, I have my choice of:

130 lumens for 10 minutes
50 lumens 35 minutes
20 lumens for over 1 hour

... and that's just my keychain light . Using the _recommended_ battery (aaa), I have the choice of 50/20/8 lumens for much much longer.


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## js (Apr 2, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Like I said, I understand there are those that like the M6, and are glad they bought one. I'm glad I never bought one, and never will.
> 
> As you know, when I first joined CPF's I only had an L2, and came close to getting one when I was reading about your rechargeable solution...then that fell apart. I made the mistake of buying an M4 and watched it bleed through 123's like a siphon from my checking account into the SF coffers. At several members urging, I drifted into FiveMega's Maglite mods, and have never thought about the M6 since then.
> 
> Many Maglite mods put the M6 to shame, and in various combinations have tremendous throw and 2-3 times the output. I don't think the M6 beam pattern is perfect because I like a light with throw rather than a diffuse floodlight beam outside. I'm not crazy about stippled/OP reflectors in general for that matter. I have seen tons of beamshots to know how it looks.



You obviously have never compared an M6 running the HOLA or LOLA side by side with a maglite mod!

Aside from the 100 Watt Osram type magmods, like the USL or "The Torch", there is no mag mod that has "2-3 times the ouput" and "tremendous throw". The Mag85 is putting out about 800 torch lumens, compared to the M6 HOLA's 630. And unless you go to a 3 inch reflector, the SF M6 turbo head will kick the poop out of a mag85 in a throw competition. Believe me, I've done plenty of side by side comparisons. A Mag85 is noticeably brighter than an MN21, but not by a lot, and I have found that the M6 running *either* the MN20 or MN21 will out-throw a an 1185 light with a 2" reflector, even a smooth one.

This is the amazing thing about the M6. Yes, it has an OP reflector (NOT stippled, BTW), but damn can it throw. It's uncanny. I don't know how they do it exactly, but SureFire has done an amazing job of trading off various beam parameters to come up with the best overall beam (in my opinion, anyway).

The only way I can understand you on this is if you are running a mag mod with a 3" reflector.

But, please understand me here! I am in no way trying to put down mag mods. I developed an equivalent set of mods for the TigerLight. I have no brief against any of the really awesome mods that we make here at CPF.

What pisses me off is people who have never used an M6 in person pulling "the lion's tail" and saying how much better their Mag85 is, and how it puts out twice the lumens, and doesn't cost $33 per hour to run.

Because, for starters, a Mag85 doesn't put out 1200 lumens. It puts out 800. And next, the lumens ratings given by SureFire are lower than the actual lumens out the front. So the MN21 puts out 630, and the MN20 puts out 400, and the MN15 puts out 200 (in the M6, anyway).



> I don't agree with you about the 123 batteries at $1.75 a clip x 6 = $11_ (I added 50 cents for an occasional < $99 order shipping charge)_ for 20 lousy minutes of MN21 500 lumen output. *That works out to $33/hr !!!! With only 12 hours of use yo**u have exceeded the original $400 purchase price in 123 batteries !!!!*



Ah, yes. The tired old dollars per hour argument. Look. If you need 600+ lumens for many minutes at a time, day after day, then, yes, the M6 running the MN21 is probably a stupid choice. The SF HOLAs aren't designed for the kind of use you want out of a light. They are the kind of lamp a police officer might use in a fire fight, or special forces might use: bursts of light. You would never run a light constant on in these situations. You'd get shot and killed, most likely. SureFire was NOT thinking of the cost of batteries per hour when they designed the HOLA. They were thinking "What's the MOST power we can get out of 2p3s 123's that will not thermally shut them down?" 



> The only answer is you have to unscrew your light and put in the MN20 bulb and now pretend that you are happy with 250 lumens, and only spending $130 for a lousy 12 hours of light. IMHO, that is called a racket...not to mention how many brighter maglites I have that last way longer than that. How anyone can defend that 123 ripoff is beyond me...and clearly you and I will never see eye to eye on that one point.



First of all, it's 400 lumens. Second of all, I find your attitude rather grating. What? You are saying that I'm "pretending" to be happy with the MN20? That's effing bullshit. I'm not giving to being pretentious or dishonest about such things. I *LOVE* the MN20 beam. *IT IS MY ALL TIME FAVORITE INCAN BEAM. PERIOD.* So get the hell over yourself.

You say YOU aren't happy with the MN20? OK. That's fine. I'm totally cool with that. But don't tell me that I'm not.

Also, have you ever used the MN20? What's your basis for comparison?



> I also don't agree that 200L (or 250L from MN20) is enough for most of my outside uses. It is enough for illuminating the ground right in front of you, and if you even look at that 200L pattern it will also interrupt your rhodopsin formation for night vision. So again, I just don't agree with you, and I have some 250L lights, and they are inadequate. While eventually if you are extra careful not to look right at the beam in front of you, and you have been outside for 20-45 minutes for night vision adaptation, then you can get by with less lumens.
> 
> However, I want a light to show me what I need to see...and do not think it is relevant to interject needing to combine your night vision adaptation into the performance equation....so you can justify even an A2's measley 75L for outside use.
> 
> I'm talking about going from inside to outside and being able to see readily, easily, and into the distance. I want a light that enables me to assess obstacles, threats, or targets. A stippled reflector with 200L won't do that.



I find that the MN20 in the M6 allows me to do exactly what you are saying. I can grab it, run out the door, and light up a pack of Coyotes all the way across the road and deep into the fields. It's only just slighly less bright than a Mag Charger with 1160 lamp, and thows pretty much as well as the MC60.

As for night vision and dark adaption, you *don't think this is relevant?*

OK. Well, it's obvious that we see things completely differently on this matter. Are you trying to bait me or something? The A2 has a "measely" 75 lumens?

Whatever.

I'll take my A2 over any of your mag mods in a second. I don't need to "justify" it. I use it out in the woods and fields in the dark of night all the time.

Do you?

Do you even know what you are talking about?

Have you ever gone out in the field for hours at a time with an A2 so you can know what you are talking about?

I'm guessing not.



> Obviously $400 buys a nice rugged light, as well it should. Honestly, although I can appreciate well made things, I don't need the "shock isolated turbo head alone is a very sophisticated and expensive piece of equipment" level of features. I don't drop my maglites outside, and I have the ability to take care of my lights so they are not abused. I also like the feel of my maglights, especially the 1D, 1.5D, and 2D models. I have no problem turning them on or off with their distinctive side click buttons.
> 
> I find they are infinitely more adaptable, upgradeable, versatile, and there is a wide array of affordable parts, bulbs, batteries available from many sources.
> 
> I will never agree that paying an outrageous amount per lumen per minute is a good thing...however you try to frame the argument.



That's fine. You don't like the M6 and will never buy one. You don't need it's features. Great. whoop-de-friggin-do. But do you really need to be so obnoxious about it?

Those of us who like the M6 don't for a second believe that "paying an outrageous amount per lumen per minute" is a "good thing". That's just setting up a staw-man argument that you can burn down.

When I spend any extended amount of time in the field, in the woods, the M6 with MN15 is my light of choice. But, heck, don't take my word for it, check out all the people who are very pleased with the MN15 in my X-LOLA thread (link in sigline).

2.5 hours, 200 lumens, and 6 CR123's seems like a pretty awesome equation to me. Even say the 123's are $2 each, that's about $5 per hour. Nice, in my opinion. ESPECIALLY when there is no way to recharge a rechargeable light. Picture this scenario: drive an hour into the boon-docks. Park car. Hike an hour to your hunting cabin. No electricity. No car.

What then? How are you going to recharge your mag mods, Lux? Carry a 12V automotive battery with you? HA! That'd be fun.

M6 not for you? You're never away from power for more than an hour or so? M6 advantages are lost on you? No problem.

But maybe you could refrain from insulting those of us who do like the M6 and whose useage patterns make it a really good cost-no-object option.


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## js (Apr 2, 2007)

2xTrinity,

No argument, my friend! No question. LED's are very versatile! I love LED lights, and I own a number of them.

However, for outdoor use, I still prefer incans at this point. Inside a tent--LED's are my choice.  Out in the bush, give me an incan any day. Just one man's opinion. YMMV.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 3, 2007)

Jim, you are the one who just got obnoxious, and started using the poop talk. You find my points grating? I find your last response getting childish by mixing emotion with a factual discussion.

I used the lumens from SF sites, and have seen many comparison beamshots that confirms what they have on their site for these bulbs. You are flipping back and forth with torch & bulb lumens between these lights as much as the invectives are flying right and left. No need for your personal attacks or nasty attitude. Where did I attack you personally as you are now claiming and starting to do?

You just don't like that I don't buy your arguments...so you start getting foul mouthed...so I'm saying back to you to look at your last post and see how you flipped into obnoxious mode. Then calm down. You have always been entitled to your opinion. I just don't agree with most of your points. If it is your favorite light and/or bulb and/or beam pattern, go for it. Just don't demand that I drink at your trough.

I don't agree with the lumens you are quoted for each of the bulbs. I also don't agree with your downgrading assessments of the various Lumens from the Mag mods I'm talking about. When I add the deep reflector, or 3" reflectors that is a whole other set of features I have easily available for these lights.

The cost of the light and 123's is a very real argument, you just don't want to hear that 12 hours of light just cost more than the original light. On a long trip, or a number of trips, 12 hours is not a long time. Yes, I see it as a major compromise to have to go down and use a weaker bulb to save your 123's.

I have not used an M6, and have no interest in one...but do have an M4, and it is a total loser compared to my Mags. FiveMega has a 43W Carley bulb that gives 1500 Lumens, likewise the 1164, and 1166 bulbs put out more than the M6. I also know that an 1185 is brighter. There are shootouts showing the difference, so I have no doubt about what I am saying. If you are going to drop the Mag85 lumens down, but not the M6, that is not equal. Where are the accurate measurements of the M6 putting out 650 lumens, and how were they done?

The rapid use of 123's is very real...and while you many not use the MN21 for hours every day...the point is that if you use it for 20 lousy minutes, you just threw away $11. Use it for an hour a day...and that's $33. 10-12 days...you just bought another light with the batteries. It is real, and it ruins the entire experience of being able to enjoy that light.

You can take your A2 over any of my Maglites when outside...you can take whatever you want. They just wont be brighter than what I'm using, and my choices and features for the money are better that either of those two lights. I use my L2 which has a 100L on high mode, and if it is the only light I have when outside, it's better than nothing, but it's not adequate...nor is 200 or 250 Lumens for what I need outside.

Sorry you have to get so pissed off about something so insignificant. You have a right to your opinions about your M6, and I have a right to my opinions about my various Mags. There is nothing about the M6 that interests me in the least to want to buy it. It's a matter of not having the performance and features that I want when outside.

Good luck with your M6.


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## woodrow (Apr 3, 2007)

I have never owned a M6, but it is problobly the coolest incan ever made. I like many others just couldn't pull the trigger because of price/battery usage (I am pretty sure mine would always have the HO bulb in it) but it does not mean I have not always dreamed of having one.

I am very happy with my leds and their Rcr123a's and fully regulated output. That being said, although I carry my D-mini in a cellphone case w/2 extra batts, I still wonder if I am going to have it just shut off on me because I overestimated the time left on the battery's 30 min of output before going immediatly to 0 light.

With Incans, (A2 not counted) you always had some warning. While I like my D-mini better than my Gpz with the P61 bulb, it does have its drawbacks. 

I sold all my good incans...now realize I need another one. I am not sure which one yet, but I know what ever I get I will like it, just because it is differnt than all my leds.


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## seery (Apr 3, 2007)

Used to own many LEDs...but found they were only being used indoors.
Sold them all and added a few more A2's to the group. The versatility of
the A2, having a great LED for indoors and an incredible regulated incan
beam outdoors is absolutely impossible to beat IMO.

Used to own many Incans...but found that all but the M6's were collecting
dust. For my needs the highly versatile M6 can't be beat. Haven't been able
to *thank JS enough* for sharing with us his M6-X creation, now all my M6's
have gone from always being used to never being put down!!!

Began using Surefire lights over 13 years ago. Started with a few 9N's and
through the years have had the pleasure of using and owning just about every
light they made, but these days it's all M6's and A2's.

Since 95% of my need for light is outdoors, I prefer the incans over the LEDs.

JS - THANKS AGAIN :rock: Beer and a sandwich on me!

Happy Torching!


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## js (Apr 3, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Jim, you are the one who just got obnoxious, and started using the poop talk. You find my points grating? I find your last response getting childish by mixing emotion with a factual discussion.



I disagree. I already pointed out where I thought you crossed the line from simply disagreeing with my points, to insulting them. So I won't rehash it again.



> I used the lumens from SF sites, and have seen many comparison beamshots that confirms what they have on their site for these bulbs. You are flipping back and forth with torch & bulb lumens between these lights as much as the invectives are flying right and left. No need for your personal attacks or nasty attitude. Where did I attack you personally as you are now claiming and starting to do?



NO. I AM NOT "FLIPPING BACK AND FORTH" between torch lumens and bulb lumens. I very well know the difference.

800 lumens for a Mag85 running on 9 cells is a *torch-lumens* figure.

630 lumens for an MN21 is ALSO a *torch-lumens* figure.

The story of how the incan community here at CPF has managed to put all the various lights on a comparable scale is pretty well discussed in my bLu vs. tLu thread, and has been confirmed by an integrating sphere. The integrating sphere result for a 1274 run at spec in a reflector, together with ceiling bounce tests and field testing, and a good amount of thought, is what allowed me to estimate the MN21 at 630 lumens. This number reflects the actual luminous power of the MN21. If we say that a WA1111 at 7.2 volts puts out 500+ torch-lumens, and an 1185 at 10.8 volts puts out 800 or so torch-lumens, then we CAN'T say that the MN21 puts out 500. That is just plain wrong and anyone who has had experience with all three lights (like myself) knows that 500 torch-lumens for the MN21 is a gross UNDER-estimate.

The very fact that you accused me of confusing torch-lumens and bulb-lumens is pretty funny, Lux. You obviously don't know anything about me, nor anything about the proper lumens rating procedure for mag mods or SureFire lights. I've spent my flashlight career involved with such questions. I got paid good money to consult for TigerLight on such questions. I spec'd lamps for TL. I'm responsible for the Gen4 TL LA and the TL 375 lumen LA.

And you think I don't know the difference between torch lumens and bulb lumens?

That's just laughable, Lux.

Or maybe you're saying I know the difference, but am being intentionally dishonest in order to get you to "drink" out of the "trough"? If so, this is EXACTLY the kind of insulting comments you have been making in your posts in this thread.



> You just don't like that I don't buy your arguments...so you start getting foul mouthed...so I'm saying back to you to look at your last post and see how you flipped into obnoxious mode. Then calm down. You have always been entitled to your opinion. I just don't agree with most of your points. If it is your favorite light and/or bulb and/or beam pattern, go for it. Just don't demand that I drink at your trough.



I really don't care if you buy my arguments. And I did carefully go back and read and re-read our back and forth before and during the composition of my last post. My goal here has never been to convert you to my view point. As I have stated a couple times now, the M6 is clearly not the light for you and your uses!

My goal has been simple: to DEFEND those of us who DO like the M6 and find that it is a smart choice.

For example: I have no problem with you saying that 200 lumens isn't enough for you. On the other hand, I DO have a problem with you saying that anyone who _says_ he is happy with 200 lumens is "pretending". Isn't it clear? One statement is expressing your preference. The other is insulting mine and those who share it.



> I don't agree with the lumens you are quoted for each of the bulbs. I also don't agree with your downgrading assessments of the various Lumens from the Mag mods I'm talking about. When I add the deep reflector, or 3" reflectors that is a whole other set of features I have easily available for these lights.



Well, quite simply Lux, you don't know what you're talking about. I don't say this to insult you, although it is pretty harsh. I just say it because it is the plain truth. My lumens ratings for the various mag mods using Welch Allyn lamps are not *MY* lumens ratings--although I totally agree with them. No. They are the result of the combined efforts of many of the most important hotwire modders and CPFers of the past three or four years, including Ginseng, PaulW, myself, bwaites, and others.

Look at my thread I linked to above. I've got the integrating sphere data to back it up.



> The cost of the light and 123's is a very real argument, you just don't want to hear that 12 hours of light just cost more than the original light. On a long trip, or a number of trips, 12 hours is not a long time. Yes, I see it as a major compromise to have to go down and use a weaker bulb to save your 123's.



I have nowhere denied that the cost of 123's is a strike against the M6.

On the other hand, I personally, and many other back-woods people, not only do not see the MN15 as a "compromise", but rather as the best amount of light for our situations.

You don't have to agree with us. I'm just asking that you respect us enough to say "Hmm. Maybe for their uses, the MN15 is a good choice."



> I have not used an M6, and have no interest in one...



Indeed. Interesting combination of statements.



> but do have an M4, and it is a total loser compared to my Mags. FiveMega has a 43W Carley bulb that gives 1500 Lumens, likewise the 1164, and 1166 bulbs put out more than the M6.



43 watts and 1500 lumens. Interesting. Do you know what kind of lumens you are quoting, Lux? I'll tell you. *bulb-lumens*. Convert this to torch lumens and you get 978 tLu.



> I also know that an 1185 is brighter. There are shootouts showing the difference, so I have no doubt about what I am saying. If you are going to drop the Mag85 lumens down, but not the M6, that is not equal. Where are the accurate measurements of the M6 putting out 650 lumens, and how were they done?



I've already answered this question. But in short, I drop the 1185 lumens down from 1230 to 800 because the former is bLu, and the latter is tLu. I raise the MN21 lumens up, because SureFire always quotes UNDERRATED torch lumens. For example, the E2e is rated at 60 lumens, yet Peter Gransee's IS tests that he had done rated it at 83 lumens. And those are LUMENS OUT THE FRONT OF THE LIGHT. Torch lumens.



> The rapid use of 123's is very real...and while you many not use the MN21 for hours every day...the point is that if you use it for 20 lousy minutes, you just threw away $11. Use it for an hour a day...and that's $33. 10-12 days...you just bought another light with the batteries. It is real, and it ruins the entire experience of being able to enjoy that light.



Again, you state things in such a way that you translate the personal into an absolute. I agree that rapid use of 123's is real. I've never denied this. But, for the record, I would say that running the MN21 yields 20 *amazing, wonderful* minutes of runtime. They are anything but "lousy" in my opinion. Size15s put who knows how many sets of 123's through his 12PM with the 3" turbo-head, and he thinks it was worth it.

But, be that as it may, the point here is that I've already agreed that running the MN21 in the M6 for your uses is a pretty bad idea. We agree here. I've never said otherwise. I've only said that for others, it's a different situation.



> You can take your A2 over any of my Maglites when outside...you can take whatever you want. They just wont be brighter than what I'm using, and my choices and features for the money are better that either of those two lights.



I'm glad it's not brighter than what you use. I like to keep my nightvision. You don't. You want to turn night into day. I want to use only as much light as I need and no more. With my night vision somewhat intact I am much better off in the woods and fields than without it. In fact, I won't use ANY light if I don't need it, and the A2 is a great light when I'm in that mode. A flash of 75 lumens from the A2 goes a long, long way with eyes that are almost totally dark adapted. But anyway, neither of us is right or wrong here. We are just using different approaches. I assume you have explored HID lights, such as the AE PL24? If not, you might check them out.



> I use my L2 which has a 100L on high mode, and if it is the only light I have when outside, it's better than nothing, but it's not adequate...nor is 200 or 250 Lumens for what I need outside.



The 100 lumens from the L2 is definitely NOT adequate for me either, because (1) it doesn't throw, and (2) it doesn't render colors well.



> Sorry you have to get so pissed off about something so insignificant. You have a right to your opinions about your M6, and I have a right to my opinions about my various Mags. There is nothing about the M6 that interests me in the least to want to buy it. It's a matter of not having the performance and features that I want when outside.
> 
> Good luck with your M6.



"Good luck with my M6?" you say?

Luck is not a factor.

That's just one of the many reasons why *I* love the M6.


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## js (Apr 3, 2007)

*deleted*


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## LiteTheWay (Apr 3, 2007)

I thought this thread might provoke some disagreement when I started it but not of the personal hostility type. Both of you should cool it.


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## js (Apr 3, 2007)

Oh, and seery, THANKS SO MUCH! That's high praise indeed coming from you.


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## XtreMe_G (Apr 3, 2007)

:grouphug:


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 4, 2007)

7histology, yeah you are right....when it comes to anyone challenging the many shortfalls of the M6, there is no way to have a calm, objective discussion with JS about it. I have seen this before...so time to end my posts here.

'll just end my post on this by saying I continue to disagree with many of the repetitious points that JS continues to make, including a number of the specifics. I don't agree with some of the lumens he is representing, but I'm not going to continue inflaming him further than he already has become. I have seen him go into "flame on" mode with many people, on many subjects, and accusing them of being the ones who are obnoxious and grating, while every post he ramps up his vitriol. Not any fun at all.

I will again just state for the record that I am very glad I didn't fall into the M6 trap and waste my money on that light and the batteries it eats up at a pace of $33/hour...and am more than thrilled with many of my maglite mods which perform much better, and much brighter. There are many shootouts that have compared them, so I am sure of my claims, but these opinions can not be stated without JS coming unglued.

So again, good luck with your M6 and your 123's.:thumbsdow


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## bwaites (Apr 4, 2007)

I really don't have much time for this, and I had pledged to myself to let these type of threads just burn out, but I find myself on both sides of this argument!

Let me clarify a few things.

The M6 is designed to do one thing very well. It is a "NO COMPROMISE" light. It is designed to use a readily available power source at it's maximum output for as long as that power source is capable of providing light. There are 2 lamps APPROVED for use with that power source, the MN20, and MN21. They put out approximately 400 Torch lumens and 630 Torch Lumens respectively, on new cells. They are rated by Surefire at MID POINT voltage, where they put out approx. 250 and 500 Lumens, respectively. It is designed SPECIFICALLY to NOT BE RECHARGEABLE. There is a reason for that. 

The reason is simple: 

Rechargeable lights are not dependable where there may not be a place to recharge them! Ask all the cops using rechargeable lights what happened to their lights in Hurricane Katrina. When the grid was off, those lights were useless after their initial discharge.

NO highpower MagMod that I am aware of, and I have built and sold literally hundreds of them, uses Primary Cells. Thus, without a readily available recharging center, those lights are good for EXACTLY one charge. Then they are paperweights. 

The M6, however, uses Primary Cells, and those officers that used them only had to tap into their supply of cells and keep right on going.

Now, lets discuss actual lumens vs. discussed lumens. 

Most proponents of MagMods talk about lamp lumens. That is what is being quoted when we talk about 1200 lumen Mag85's, 900 lumen Mag74's, etc.

However, after extensive testing, most responsible CPF'ers understand that only about 2/3rds (give or take a few percent) of those lamp lumens get out the front of the light. So 1200 lumens from the lamp becomes 800 torch lumens, in the case of a Mag85. 

Since no one bothers to test midpoint voltages on MagMods, we have NO idea what those actual figures are, like we do with Surefires. To complicate the issue, the outputs vary significantly depending on which cells you use. For instance, the 1650 CBP cells are generally acknowledged to produce the most output, with a shorter runtime, than the 2500 Sanyo cells. And it gets even more complicated if you use FiveMega's LiIon 9pack holder and 14500 LiIon cells! 

It was easier to figure out what the Surefire starting outputs were than it was to figure out midpoint outputs on all the possible Mag iterations. And, after long trial and error procedures, the 630 and 400 lumen figures were arrived at, and are felt to be close. 

So, to compare apples to apples, and Surefires to MagMods, we use starting outputs and Torch Lumens (tLu). 

Doing that reveals that the M6, at turn on, is very comparable to a well built Mag74 and only slightly less bright than a Mag85. In fact, I have seen MANY Mag85’s that actually put out LESS light than a stock M6, and the Mag85 owner had been thrilled with the amount of light it was putting out!

I have owned somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 Mag85’s, 15 Mag74’s, and 30 Mag11’s, including LiIon versions of Mag85’s and Mag11’s, 4 Mag60’s with NiMH 4000Mah packs, hotdriver Mag11’s. Tiger11’s, a regulated Tiger11, and multiple stock and high output Tigerlights. I have compared them at length. I like MagMods because of their cost. But as a system, nothing compares to the M6.

Take any MagMod and drop it. Does it still work? Is it still in focus? Now toss it 15 or 20 feet, simulating what would happen if you were running with it and fell, losing control of it as you fell. Does it still work? Is it in focus? Now, mount it on a high powered rifle, run 15 or 20 high powered rounds through it, does it still work? Is it in focus? Now run it for long enough to walk 45 minutes from your house. Does it still work? Now you are a 45 minute walk from the nearest charger. Are you willing to risk you life on that light? 

What is your life worth? $33/hour is cheap under those circumstances, isn’t it?

If I have an M6 running the HOLA, I will have to swap cells a few times, but I don’t need a charger, I can carry cells, and very light ones at that. If I am running the LOLA, I can swap cells on the way back. Carrying a MagMod, I could hope I had an extra FiveMega carrier and charged cells, but the truth is that few people have those on hand. 

I have compared the beams at great length. Jim is right, the M6 throws just as far as a MagMod with the stock head. Not surprising, since even though the reflector is orangepeeled, it is larger than the 2” Mag reflector. But the truth is that either will outthrow your vision at night. I have a tree that is 200 yards from my back porch. I can put light on that tree with a Mag85 and with the M6, but other than identifying it is a tree, I can’t tell you much else. If there was a person dressed in dark clothes standing in line with the trunk, I probably couldn’t pick him out with either light. (I have 20/13 vision). 

The 3” reflectors probably would allow me to pick that individual out with a MagMod, but they would do the same on the M6!

I was VERY skeptical of the M6 initially. I actually bought one so I could expose “The King of Flashlights” in a comparison with the MagCharger and Tigerlight. It seemed like an overpriced tool without a cause. Then a strange thing happened. I used it, and found the size and usefulness to outweigh the negatives of the cell costs. Then I was lucky enough to get one of JS’s rechargeable packs, and daily use became the norm. I’ll admit that having a rechargeable pack makes the light more palatable for daily use, but I was using it daily without it also. In fact, so far as I know, JS doesn’t even use one of his own regulated packs, he just uses the X-Lola and regular cells! 

People who haven’t used one, like I was before my planned “expose” have a hard time getting it. But, milkyspit asked me which of all my lights would I keep if I had no choice and it was an easy decision. My M6 and my A2. If I could only keep one, it would be the A2. 

Now let’s address the “puny” A2 output. 70+ lumens is brighter than any flashlight Maglite sells except the MagCharger, and literally MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people have confirmed that they can get along with less than 70 lumens! A perfectly balanced 70+ lumens seems pretty good in comparison to that weaker, artifact filled Maglite beam!

I took a five mile nighttime hike last fall, across farm fields, through orchards, etc. All I took was an A2, and all I used for most of the hike was the LED’s. This was a moonless, cloudy night. During the hike I noticed some sounds off to the sides a few times. I quickly went to the incan, and usually identified some cat or bird off to the side. However, one time I found a skunk a few feet off my path. The incan was easily bright enough to light him up from 40-50 feet, and make ID’ing him as a skunk vs. a black cat quite easy. 

A brighter light would have significantly compromised my night vision, and while I probably would have been fine straight ahead, what was off to the sides would have been invisible. 

So is the M6 overpriced and outperformed?

For me, it depends on its use. If all you are using it for is what most people use a light for around the house, then it is a ridiculously expensive toy! If you are using it in high stress situations, then it is an underpriced necessity!

How about for the average CPF’er? Well, that still depends. Quality has a price. NO MagMod is built to the M6’s quality level. 

While all of FiveMegas many Mods and original pieces are well constructed and well built, they are NOT proven in battle. The M6 is. Would I risk MY life on any MagMod? Nope! There are only 2 lights that I would consider, the M6 and the Tigerlight. Both have shock isolation systems for the lamp, although the M6 is certainly more evolved. The Tigerlight is rechargeable. 

Does this argument get heated? You bet, because too many people who have never even held an M6 or a MagMod have opinions about something which they could not possibly have enough experience to make valid statements. They look at the outputs of the MagMods and say, “Wow, these things kill the M6, why would anyone buy an M6 when these are available? Those people must all be nuts!” Or they look at the price of the M6 and say, “It’s way overpriced, why would anyone buy one?”

The truth is that the M6 is an incredible light, period. Finding the X-Lola option helps make it more palatable.

As for rechargeable lights, they make a lot of sense, IF YOU HAVE A WAY TO RECHARGE THEM. The M6 was designed to be used where recharging was not an option. In fact, it is the ONLY high powered light I am aware of where that is the case. I don’t know of any other high output lights that you can use primary cells in. Does anyone?

So, I’ll keep my MagMods for use around the house or where I have a readily available charger. 

BUT…I am not about to give up my M6, and the ability to use primary cells when I need them. 

Those who refuse to use primary cells are limited in where they can go. I’m not!

As for white wall and controlled environment experiments, the MagMods can be made to output more light, that is a given, but at least compare Torch Lumens to Torch Lumens, not Bulb Lumens to Torch Lumens. 

Finally, NO light is a number, or even a sum of the numbers. There are always too many intangibles when lights are evaluated to make the numbers the focus of the light. The M6 is MORE than the numbers would seem to make it in many ways, and LESS than they would make it in others.

Bill


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## GeorgePaul (Apr 4, 2007)

Impressive post, bwaites.:rock:Tough act to follow. Just one question: Aren't high quality LED lights more rugged and less likely to fail when dropped or otherwise abused, or when mounted on guns, than even very high quality incandescents like the M6?

An a different tack, I prefer incandescent lights to LED lights for most uses, indoors and out, for a couple of very simple reasons. One, most of the fixed lights I have at home are incandescent lights and I'm used to them. The incandescent portable lights I have put out light that is subjectively very similar to that put out by my fixed lights and I prefer that. Also, the LED lights show me things that are difficult or impossible to see using incandescent lighting or ordinary daylight and make things look unnatural. For example, when I point my L4 at the carpet, I see discolorations that I don't normally see -- it looks like the carpet desperately needs to be cleaned, even though it looks perfectly clean in daylight.


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## bwaites (Apr 4, 2007)

LED's are inherently more shock stable than Incandescents, but, to date, there are no LED's with the outputs that the 500+ Lumen incandescents provide, or at least none with the ability to be focused to the same extent. 

As for color rendition, incandescents provide a light that is "friendlier" to what our eyes normally see. There have been HUGE threads abut this, and so I will not go into it here. For me, and I will admit to being very "blue sensitive", incans give significantly better color differentiation, and thus I can pick things up that I would miss with an LED. (I've heard that eerie bluish LED color called "Walking on the Moon"). 

But yes, someday, hopefully soon, we will have LED's that put out 500+ lumens, can be focused, and have a full color spectrum!

Bill


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## Josey (Apr 4, 2007)

The problem with these arguments is that everyone can be right: What works best depends on your circumstances. The A2 is a perfectly fine little light if all you are doing is walking around the city or going for a nighttime country walk. But if you're trying to find the cougar that is after one of your dogs or if you're trying to get rid of a poacher, an A2 is too small. I always take two lights in difficult situations because I know one can fail, even an M6 (usually the bulb). I know the M6 is an incredible light and nearly vital in a lot of situations that JS and Bwaites mention. I don't have one because of the battery issue that LuxLuthor mentions. But my situation is unique. I live off grid and it doesn't matter if the power is down. My solar/wind/generator power is never down. My regulated Mag85 powered by GP2000s at 11.1 volts through the entire runtime (40 min or so) in a very low-resistance circuit. It must put out closer to 900 lumens and hold that output. It is brighter than even a fresh M6. And I can use whatever reflector (throw or pure, clean wall of light) that I need. I know it is not more durable than an M6, but I'm not at war or a LEO, otherwise I'm going with the M6, like Bwaites says. JS's regulated TL-11 is one of my favorite lights. I use it all the time. But when a poacher sneaks up in my driveway (once a month or so), I have a Mag458 with 3-inch head that pumps out 11,000 lumens long enough for the poacher to figure out he's in the wrong place. 

I also love LEDs. If I could have only one light, maybe it would be my Icarus Mag 2C Tri-LED dimmable running on 2 of AW's C Li-Ions. That's a light that can do just about anything. But I don't undercut Surefire quality. My L6 modded by Milkyspit with an X bin and capable of using primary or rechargeable lights is pretty awesome, so is Milkyspit's M180 in Surefire body. 

I just love having access to such wonderful lights and being a place so big and so dark that I acually use these lights. 

Josey


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## bwaites (Apr 4, 2007)

Josey makes a good point, HE is unique and can charge when there is no grid power. 

BUT what happens when he is chasing that cougar and uses up the cells in his Mag85?
Or he walks more than 45 minutes using that Mag85. 

Having seen his posts, I suspect that he has at least one or two more rechargeable packs ready to go.

BUT most CPF'ers don't. That's where an M6 that is usable on primaries becomes invaluable. 

I'm with him, I usually have 3 lights on me. I actually had 2 others on the walk I described, but found the A2 LED's were perfect for most of the walk. One was too bright, the other, a LarryLight CR2, too small to hold comfortably and walk with over the rough terrain.

I have found that having a super bright light in dense forest is almost useless for me, since there is so much reflection off foliage that my night vision is completely rendered useless. BUT, when looking for a threat like a cougar, I have a hard time believing that there is such a thing as too much light!!!

My closest experience with that kind of situation was two years ago on a rafting trip on the Lochsa River in Idaho. We arrived late at night, it was raining hard, and there were several deer standing on or near the road at the entrance to our campsite. We avoided them and pulled in and camped. The undergrowth was thick. I usually inflate a queen sized air mattress in the back of my Yukon XL and sleep, while my son and some friends slept in a 30 foot trailer so they didn't have to put up tents. 

The next morning we went walking up to the camp entrance and there was a big blood mark where one of the deer had been obviously hit during the night. No deer was present, so we followed the blood trail over the edge of the road. We found it, very neatly filleted open and half eaten, lying under a leaf pile. Evidently, a bear had found it during the night, and was taking advantage of the easy pickings. 

We backtracked to camp, but then realized that the carcass couldn't be too far from where we had camped. Due to the deep undergrowth, we hadn't heard the impact or the bear, but when we sent a couple adults back up to the road, and had them yell at us, we found that the carcass was less than 50 feet from my Yukon! From the camp side, once we knew where the carcass was, we could farirly easily spot it!

So, from then on, EVERYBODY went anywhere after dark with a buddy, and EVERYBODY carried the brightest light they could find!

Bill


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## Minjin (Apr 4, 2007)

bwaites and snipped for length said:


> NO highpower MagMod that I am aware of, and I have built and sold literally hundreds of them, uses Primary Cells...That is what is being quoted when we talk about 1200 lumen Mag85's, 900 lumen Mag74's, etc....In fact, it is the ONLY high powered light I am aware of where that is the case. I don’t know of any other high output lights that you can use primary cells in. Does anyone?
> Bill



I haven't read this entire thread. The topic has been rehashed so many times on this forum. I just happened to read this post by chance so I thought I'd respond to your request. 

My Mag3C with a 1274 powered by 4x123As has proven to be a reliable, very strong output light that runs on primaries. I don't see many people running this config but it definitely works. 

FYI.


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## Nocturnicus (Apr 4, 2007)

In defence of LED's, there seems to be a reccurent theme throughout this thread of comparing commercially available LED flashlights - Surefire, Fenix, etc - to big incan Mag mods and flashlights-on-steroids, like the M6. Not a fair comparison, in my opinion. By far most commercially available LED lights are aimed at the EDC niche market: easilly carried, long battery life, sufficient lumens for most tasks, but never intended to be photon artillery. To be fair, compare M6's and Mag85's to something like the 7-Cree Mag mods and the like that you'll regularly find on the Mod formum. Now we're talking 800 - 1200 lumens, plus the added advantage of a switchable low-power mode for extended run-time. Sure, the throw might not be comparable to a single high-powered incan bulb, but it's still pretty darn good, and not everyone worships throw. My tripple Luxeon TSP will show me what I need to see a good hundred yards down the trail/road, with superb side-spill besides. YMMV, obviously, but I've got absolutely no use for a small round spot five hundred yards down range. Admittedly, such high powered multi-LED blasters are currently pretty much the domain of modders, custom builders, and small manufacturers like Electrolumens, but if we're going to compare LED lights to M6/Mag85 class lights, lets be fair and let LED's be represented by something a little bigger than a Fenix.


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## woodrow (Apr 4, 2007)

I think there are good arguments on both sides of the M6/Mag85 issue. I also think if we all met arround a campfire, the talk would be pretty civil. It is easier to yell at someone when you are both in your cars...then when you turn into the same parking lot and get out.

My only disapointment for this discussion, it that it really has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. A M6 vs M85 thread would (and problobly has been) a better place.

I have had neither, but think both are cool lights and I hope I get to play with both someday. Even if the dabate would be an M6 for incans and whatever the name of theat 9 led K2 $500.00 light...these are such non typical lights, that it is really a pretty silly argument for most people. 

For most of us, the discussion of outdoor led vs. incan use, would be a Survivor LED-SL propoly-Cree light ect..vs. a SL-Tl3-3Dmag still running on alkalines...SF 6p-9p ect. 

I would invite some more typical light user cpf members to get involved in the discussion. A 500S&Wmag vs. a .338 Lupa argument does not enlighten the general public very much as to weather rifles or handguns are better for hunting.


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## bwaites (Apr 4, 2007)

I've had multiple LED lights for at least 2 years, although I don't yet have any of the 6-7 SSC or Cree lights.

But as I pointed out above, none of them yet are able to be focused into anything resembling the beam you get from either the M6 or the MagMods. 

We ARE, by definition, talking about the lights that CAN be focused like a hotwire. So far none of the LED's are capable. As I also stated, that will change, hopefully in the near future. 

If you guys will read the whole thread, you will find that it started not as a comparison of incan to LED, but as a question regarding the numbers of people viewing each forum, and then evolved into a debate about the merits of the Surefire M6 vs MagMods.

Bill


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## bwaites (Apr 4, 2007)

Minjin,

I'm confused, you run the 1274 with 4 123's in series? 

How is that possible? That is a 7.2/8.4 volt lamp. 4 123 cells should produce 12 volts at cold start, enough to instaflash the lamp. Or is that filament tough enougth to handle the startup surge?

Even so, that is putting those 123's under about 4 amps of draw, and that is a recipe for disaster, ala, flash ignition, go boom! 

I haven't heard of that configuration, even.

Bill

Bill


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## LiteTheWay (Apr 4, 2007)

When I began this thread I did not have in mind battery life which we now seem to have got into and which I guess is inevitable in any LED v Incan discussion.

But .... some of the more extreme scenarios mooted/hinted at above about the power being off and running out of batteries and what then .... would only seem to have a solution in dynamo/crank lights which just about HAVE to be LED since only LEDs draw llittle enough power not to have to crank your hand off to keep them going.

I know that crank lights have a bad name especially apparently in the US and discovered that in an earlier thread I started (I think in the LED forum), but here in Oz there are at least two brands of GOOD crank lights - Sontax and Nelson - both of which sell lights that will produce useful light (30+ mins) after 1 min cranking and more importantly will hold the charge for MONTHS. Some of them will also charge your mobile phone too.

If you are in extreme situations - with no batteries - is there another way to go?


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## Minjin (Apr 4, 2007)

bwaites said:


> Minjin,
> 
> I'm confused, you run the 1274 with 4 123's in series?
> 
> ...



I've been using it for a while. Its never flashed. The combo has been discussed but it fell out of favor because not many people have 3C Mags. The voltage drops quite a bit due to internal resistance of the cells.


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## js (Apr 4, 2007)

woodrow,

There is a link to an actual LED vs. incan thread posted early on, and it is OT.

Yes, the M6 vs. Mag85 is not productive, and is a bit off topic to this thread, although keep in mind that it IS in the incan forum.

For the record: I love all of the various CPF mods that use Welch Allyn or Osram or Carley (or whatever) lamps. I am one of the people who is responsible for a great many WA lamp mods that are out in the field. Thousands and thousands of dollars worth of them, truth be told. On the order of 30 or 40 Tiger11's and 74's, and 20+ Tiger85's. It is not my intent, nor is it in my financial interst, to trash mag mods. Nor do I gain one penny by putting in a good word for the M6 or A2.

And I love rechargeable lights. I'm the guy that made the M6 rechargeable! There are like 40+ M6-R's out in the field right now. I have nothing against rechargeables. Au contraire.

And I love LED lights. I started out with LED lights. I love my Arc LSH and Arc AAA and my SF L2.

And I suspect that FiveMega makes awesome, awesome mods although I have never owned any.

In short, it is not my intention to trash any light whatsoever. I see that there are different lights for different folks. As Josey says, we are all right. It's all good.

I do, however, take issue with someone telling me that my choices and preferences are wrong, not just for them personally, but across the board and for me! Especially if the person attacking my choice has never even handled or used the light in question (let alone owned it). That's actually the main reason why I painstakingly researched and composed my thread on the A2. I was tired of it being attacked by people who had never owned it; attacked merely based on the cost and numbers taken from the SF website. A flashlight is more than a collection of numbers and people should respect the choices of others.


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## js (Apr 4, 2007)

7histology said:


> When I began this thread I did not have in mind battery life which we now seem to have got into and which I guess is inevitable in any LED v Incan discussion.
> 
> But .... some of the more extreme scenarios mooted/hinted at above about the power being off and running out of batteries and what then .... would only seem to have a solution in dynamo/crank lights which just about HAVE to be LED since only LEDs draw llittle enough power not to have to crank your hand off to keep them going.
> 
> ...



Actually, yeah. I remember seeing a really cool Tritum based light with a shade/hood thingy. It was like a permanent glow stick, only better made and brighter. And, IIRC it was EXPENSIVE.

And, also, I'd like to put in a good word for candles!  I love candles. Although, yes, they do run out, unlike the crank lights or the tritium light I saw a post about.


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## bwaites (Apr 4, 2007)

I would point out something that I just realized again (I knew this, I just forget it from time to time) and is actually quite hysterical when you think about it:

js is a consultant/designer for Tigerlight, a rechargeable light, and yet goes out of his way to point out that the M6, a light from a competing company, and which is NOT rechargeable, is a fantastic light.

He has every reason to trash the M6, but his sense of fairness won't let him, and he even gets pretty hot and bothered when others trash it, or more importantly, those who buy it and use it.

I would have to say that he is a pretty unbiased user and reviewer, at least from the way that I look at things!

BTW, here is the Tritium torch thread:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=154140

I like candles too, although I think my wife's purchases of candles come close to my flashlight budget. Of course candles are incandescent....



Bill


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 5, 2007)

I wasn't going to post here anymore, but was so impressed with bwaites excellent manner of calmly responding, pointing out factual and historical information as well as real scenarios such as Katrina, & being in dangerous situations that are obvious places for a light like the M6 to excell. I do not look at my lights from that perspective, and don't have most of those needs you outlined so well. 

In particular, you covered most of the valid points of the M6 vs. Mag mods without any insults, foul languange, or feeling the need to trash and insult others even if you didn't agree with what was said...and that is very cool. You allow a nice, friendly discussion back and forth, rather than it getting whipped into a vicious flame war. Thank you for restoring civility to this discussion.

The problem with the torch & bulb lumens is always an area of mischief, and I was using SF's website's numbers for the MN20/21 bulbs, rather than the starting point with fresh 123 cells. I don't feel that short peak output of the M6 should be used because it fades down so fast in the 20 min life cycle of the batteries. The torch lumens of the Mag85 I use are above 900 due to the higher voltage I run. In additon, using 1166 & 1164 at higher voltages are also over 800 - 1000 torch lumes respectively. The Carley 43W at 16V is close to 1200 torch lumens.

The other major aspect of this whole lumen discussion is the hotspot concentration with the maglites I'm speaking about. Presuming the torch lumens being bantered about were actually measured in a quality integrating sphere (which I have seen no evidence of such measurements being done), there is a whole other aspect that I like about mags, namely the intense focussed hotspot that gives much more throw, and which I have not seen on the M6 photos. This is not taken into account when an integrating sphere measures all of the light out the front. It is also affected by the reflector used. There is no way to compare that aspect of these lights because the M6 does not have the same type of hotspot.

Adding 2" deep reflectors and 3" reflectors adds more impact in terms of lumen output, and they are a part of most of my mods...so I am including them in the equation. I think I am pushing mine harder than what has been used for Mag Mods torch lumen estimates in the past. I also have not seen actual measurements in a quality integrating sphere to know what the torch numbers are from all these setups. Multiplying overdriven bulb lumen estimator at WA's website x 67% to get an accurate torch lumen is frought with problems and assumptions.

I am talking about using higher voltages with bulbs like the 1185, such as 12.2-12.3V regulated which is signficantly brighter than 10.8V mentioned earlier. I'm also talking about running the 1166 at 12.3V, so that is a part of my comparison apples to apples. I don't know what to say for mid point average light estimates, but it is not fair to pick the absolutely brightest peak battery time against an estimated WA estimated bulb calculation x 67%. The mags using a hotdriver do not have a drop during the runtime...so my higher outputs remains.

Remember I do have an L2 and M4 and have compared their highest outputs with my mags outside and find them inadequate for what I need. The M4 HOLA is reported by SF to put out 350, so that is likely a peak of 450-500L when it starts, and it is not enough for my purposes. It is not close to any of my mags, including the 700L 1331 bulb running at 12.2V. I have not mentioned my 100W lights such as the Torch because they dont have a practical run time. I have taken a whole other set of batteries on a number of trips, and I can change them as fast as an M6.

Clearly in a long term power outage, a light like the M6 is better....assuming you have $500-$1000 worth of batteries sitting on the shelf and make sure you use them sparingly....but I just don't like the idea of wasting the amount of money it costs to run the M6 MN21 for a couple hours. It ruins the enjoyment of M4, and I would feel even worse with the M6....and cannot recommend it because of that issue. Should law enforcement or military use it because of the higher demands of construction and durability....yeah if their agency has the money to shell out for that expensive of a light and for several crates of batteries. I'm not challenging that point, nor its durability.

I'm challenging the price of purchase, operation costs, and the lumen outputs vs. my maglites as my main objections to it. I never abuse my maglites, except I dropped a Torch with the head off, and it broke the bulb. Otherwise I have never worried about buying a light that I can throw around, or drop it, or put it on top of a weapon. The M6 is better for those purposes. 

I'm talking about my common use, where rechargeables work very well, and I have access to a charger. I also have a generator at my home in case there is a long term blackout. How often have you seen blackouts lasting more more than an hour? I can only remember one when the whole Ohio, PA, NY, VT, Canada power grid got overloaded. I have enought Li-Ions and NiMH cells around here to have at least one light running for over a week if needed.

If someone gave me an M6, and a rechargeable pack, I'm sure I would use and enjoy it. If I had to buy 123's at $33/hour, I would not use it..and would reach for my brighter, farther throwing mags (with deep and larger reflectors) when doing most thiings outside because I need the distance covered. 

So, in summary there is a place for the M6 if a person has the money to buy it and pay for expensive battery useage, and expecially if they need rugged construction. Those are not my needs, nor the needs of most people reading these forums. I am confortable that I can take care of my mags and keep them charged. 

Mainly, it's just great that you can talk about the pro's and con's of both categories of lights in a fun manner without insulting people and swearing at them over such a truly irrelevant life issue as one flashlight vs. another. Without the emotional baggage being added, you restored the M6 to its proper position in the types of situations you listed.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.


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## bwaites (Apr 5, 2007)

I had the advantage of someone already having vented their righteous indignation over the issue!

The truth is that had it been me who saw the first posts criticizing the M6 as unworthy, I would have been just as upset as JS.

I find it interesting that Lux needs more than 500 lumens for common use! I get by with less than 100 most of the time, and McGizmo has noted that for the vast majority of tasks, you can use even less, thus the popularity of his "Mizer" lights.

500 Lumen lights and above significantly impair your night vision. If you are in the city, where there is lots of light contamination (boy, is that weird to write!) a 500 lumen light MIGHT not be particularly problematical. But in the rural/small town area where I live, 500 lumens wreaks havoc with my night vision. That means that I am limited to having decent vision only in the tunnel of light that my light provides, and that my peripheral vision is mostly useless. 

That's why I walked home with the 8-10 lumens my THC3 equipped A2 provided, not the incan or a bigger light. 

I find that once my eyes are dark adapted, I can walk comfortably with LED's, which give spill out to about 20 feet. 

When I use a USL or AE24, or something similar, my night vision is gone, and since I am in my mid 40's, it takes 15-20 minutes to get it back to normal. That's not acceptable to me. 

Now, for the reasons that Josey mentioned; cougars, bears, etc. I WOULD use the brightest light possible, but I don't have to do that much, thankfully.

What is my "go bump in the night" light? Well, the M6 is next to my bed, and it's the easiest to grab, but I have a USL not too far away. If I have to move beyond the confines of the house, the M6 goes in the pocket and the USL is used for the first few minutes. BOTH destroy night vision, but for those circumstances and the relatively short time frame, I can live with it, because I am going back into a lighted house.

For long term use, I find that 200-300 lumen lights are almost ideal. Meaning that if I was searching for something, looking for lost keys, a child, etc. I would carry the M6 with the X-Lola, and some type of MagMod or the AE24 for more throw and brighter light if needed for something a distance off.

Bill


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## defusion (Apr 5, 2007)

bwaites said:


> and since I am in my mid 40's, it takes 15-20 minutes to get it back to normal. That's not acceptable to me.


It takes that long for everybody 
i believe the mythbusters had a show about early nightvision (the pirate special i think)

anyway, i agree with pretty much everything in the above posts, i would just like to make clear that not everybody uses their lights for the same tasks.
Also, not everybody has alot of money to spend, and those people make compromised due to a lack of funds (or simply because they can live without them).

To me there are lights for 3 types of distances.

short range (indoor): low power (10-100 lumen), high runtime, most often LED
medium range (outdoor): 100-500 lumen, mostly incan
long range (outdoor): high power 500-5000, and runtime depends on type of bulb. HID is long runtime, incan is lower runtime but generally cheaper.

there are ofcourse many in between, or lights you can use for many things. i can use my fenix LED for outdoor (though the white light is annoying), and my surefire m3 for indoor, but will blind anyone looking into the beam. But i think i covered general uses above.

After deciding on what you use the light for, you can look at other features which usually drive the price up.
shock proofness: makes is expensive
running on lithiums makes running it expensive, but there are advantages like long shelflife and high current, and they weigh next to nothing.

my opinion on what was said before about the surefire vs. modded maglite:
The surefire has it's uses with the advantages named, even though i don't need one, i can see why others might. The modded mag is "fun", but runtime generally sucks. I would prefer a HID for long distance, as the times you need long range capability you generally also need long runtimes. but can still see why one would want the MAG.


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## js (Apr 5, 2007)

Lux,

I apologize for whatever parts of my posts were insulting and offensive to you. Honestly and sincerely, I do.

Maybe we can move on from compliments to others that are really backhanded insults to each other, and into a more productive discussion?

The 65 percent transmission of bLu to tLu has been backed up by an integrating sphere. If you check out the link I provided a few posts up, you will see this. In point of fact, the 65 percent transmission figure is far more valid than the _re-rating formulas_ used to take a WA published bulb-lumen at one voltage to a calculated bulb-lumen at another voltage. The .65 value is not dependent on how intense or diffuse the beam is, although if it were, it would go _down_ with increasing tightness of the beam. The IS test was done with a 1274 run at spec (7.2 volts) by a regulated power supply, potted into a TigerLight reflector, and focused to very near the tightest beam possible. The test was done by LSI of Arizona and is a certified lab measurement. Details can be found in my thread.

As for SureFire peak vs. mid-point lumens, I'm going to have to disagree with Bill Waites slightly on this, and say that the 630 lumens for the MN21 isn't really peak, but is more like 5 to 7 minutes into the run, which is pretty close to the start of the run. The 400 lumens of the MN20 also isn't peak, but is more like 20 minutes into the run. The 200 lumens of the MN15 is essentially constant _for over half the run_, i.e. for 1 hour and 15 minutes or more. This is due to the very flat discharge curve of 123's when they are discharged at the lower draw rates. The MN20 and MN15 discharged curves are very nice for direct-drive lights.

Hear me clearly on this: I AM NOT TRYING TO INFLATE ANY NUMBERS. I am not trying to "win" any argument. I am merely speaking to what I believe is the truth of the matter. I have had extensive experience with many of the lamps being discussed here. I'm not lying. I'm just trying to tell it like it is. That's all. I apologize for getting hot-headed about it. I'm sorry if my language offended you. But I'm not trying to deceive you or anyone else, or convert you to my view point.

What I don't get is why you keep harping on the $33/hr figure? I've already said that I wouldn't run the MN21 for task-oriented use. In fact, I almost always run the MN15 in my M6, on primaries. I bought about $100 worth of 123's 5 or 6 months ago now, and I still have over half of them left. The $33/hr figure is appropriate for _your_ uses. You want that much light. You need that much light for your uses. I get that.

So, I agree, the M6 for you is a "trap", is stupid, is a really bad light.

I GET IT! I've never argued with you on that, Lux. Look back over the discussion and see for yourself!

All I have been saying is that for some people, for some of us, for people _other than yourself_, the situation may be, and often is, different. I'm just asking for a little respect for those of us who like the M6. That's all.

Let me do this formally: Lux, what do you say about people like me and seery and cnjl3 and bwaites who love our M6's and are glad we bought them and who would buy them again?

Can you bring yourself to say that it's possible that _for us, for our situations,_ that the M6 is a valid choice? Can you do that, please?

That's all I have been after this whole time. What do you say?


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## js (Apr 5, 2007)

Lux's stated need for 500 or 1000 lumens is completely valid! He is not Bill or me. We are not him.

For the record (and I'll speak for Bill on this, as I'm sure I know what he intended above) let me just state that neither Bill nor myself are questioning the validity of Lux Luthors need for a massive amount of light.

So, Lux, please don't get offended by Bill's post! I'm sure that what Bill intended was to offer to those new to the whole flashaholic thing, the information that _most_ people do not need the amount of light generated by 30 or 40 or 100 watt halogen lamps, and that that amount of light is often counter-productive. That's all.

And I agree with this. I think what happened to me is typical of what happens to many: we get the brightness disease and want more and more and MORE lumens, until we're playing with something like the USL or The Torch or The Aurora, and are spoiled to the point where the SF E2e or A2 seems like a weak and pathetic excuse for a flashlight. But then, with time, and as the novelty of super-bright lights fade, we come to the conclusion that in most cases, less is indeed more.

That's what happened to me anyway, FWIW.

I am very, very happy with 200 lumens from my M6 with MN15. That's just me. Not everyone will be so pleased, of course. But, for me, it's the cat's meow.

Also, on a side note, it seems that we have totally neglected the fact that the M6 *can* be easily modded to be rechargeable, with approx. 400 or 700 lumen outputs, and 45+ minutes or 17 minute runtimes. Just use the Powerizer R123 unprotected Li-ion cells and the MN60 or MN61 lamps. The R123 cells drive them harder than a 4s 123 source, and are, of course, rechargeable. Ideally, protected cells would be used, but that is still being investigated. The MN61 with R123's in the MB20 is being severly over-driven, though.

That's another things I'd like to bring up: severe over-drive is a really cool thing, but is totally unpractical for many situations. I designed a TL that ran on full sized A cells that had a mid-point voltage of 7.6 volts, driving the 1111. This re-rated out to a good amount of lumens. I sold it to a LEO. The first lamp lasted _less than 6 hours!!!_. Not good! And driving the 1185 at 12 volts? That will last almost zero hours. It only has 11 hours of life at 10.8 volts. I can't believe it doesn't instantly flash at 12.0 volts. Perhaps that was a typo? But it doesn't matter either way. The point is that severe over-drive does indeed crank up the lumens, but it does also shorten the life-span of the lamp. Of course, if your lamp only costs $6, it's no big deal, whereas shortening the life of an MN61 _is_ a big deal!

Anyway, it's trade-offs. That's what most of these choices and decisions involve. And each of us will prefer different trade-offs. No one is right or wrong on this. One of the best things about CPF is that it enables people to find the lights that are right _for them_.

I wasted a full year or more without my A2 _because a prominent CPFer trashed the A2 in one of the threads_, or at least he trashed the beam quality. And so I was like, "Oh. OK. Well I don't want a beam that is just about the worst beam out there! I guess the A2 is a bad choice."

I really wish that that hadn't happened, but I do understand where he was coming from now, and looking back I see that I probably misinterpreted him in that context. But anyway, the point is that we should all be careful about trashing lights. Many, many people are reading these posts, looking for information, trying to decide what is best _for them_.

I often make myself look like a hot-headed asshole. I'm really not one, I don't think. Well . . I'm hotheaded. LOL! But anyway, I'd rather that, than have what I personally see as an imbalanced view of something stand. Just my opinion as to what is and isn't "imbalanced" of course!

But hopefully, in the wash, when everyone has posted, people will be able to pick out the information they need to make the best decision _for them_.


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## tussery (Apr 5, 2007)

Being that my hobby can leave me in places that have no power, and if they do it isn't practical for me to pack a charger along with all the other junk I carry on offroad trips I can already see where my M6 is a better choice for me over the ROP I had. Granted I could run an invertor in my Jeep to power a charger but it just isn't practical to carry around that much more gear. Even for me the X-LOLA puts out enough light. I love my M6 and to me it was the best decision I made selling my ROP to help finance it. It also saved me money from spending another $250 dollars on a good charger and more battery adapters with the initial cost of the ROP parts and Mag host I have already saved money. In the same time I have had my M6 I have yet to change the batteries and in the same time frame I remember having 
to charge the ROP batteries twice.

So put me in the book of a M6 being a better alternative than a Mag Mod.


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## xiaowenzu (Apr 5, 2007)

I love the warmth of incand. Nothing beats a good old campfire. 

Led is cold and mean! Lol:lolsign:


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## defusion (Apr 5, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> I love the warmth of incand. Nothing beats a good old campfire.
> 
> Led is cold and mean! Lol:lolsign:


i have to agree, i barely use my fenix now i have a nice incandescent surefire m3 
i've only had it for 2 days though  but still running on first set of batteries (i've been avoiding the MN11, 225lumen, 20min light though, running MN10, 125lumen, 1 hour+ runtime). Normal use with the MN10 would probably last about a week here, but i plan on rechargeables with the MN11, and swap them out for a fresh set daily (yes the 17500's will drive it). I will simply put some spare batteries and the MN10 bulb in a spares container for when i get stuck somewhere i need light for longer then i'd like.


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## Lobo (Apr 5, 2007)

My humble apologizes for derailing this thread even further, but you people who don't bring along a Magmod just cause there is no charger available where your heading, why don't you just bring along some extra rechargables? It can't be the selfdischarge with NiMH, since there are Eneloops etc, and there are also plenty of Li-rechargable Magmods. And it shouldnt be the cost, since rechargables pay for themself quite fast if you use the light often(which I guess you do since you have made the total investment in first place). So what am I missing? :thinking:


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## defusion (Apr 5, 2007)

Lobo said:


> My humble apologizes for derailing this thread even further, but you people who don't bring along a Magmod just cause there is no charger available where your heading, why don't you just bring along some extra rechargables? It can't be the selfdischarge with NiMH, since there are Eneloops etc, and there are also plenty of Li-rechargable Magmods. And it shouldnt be the cost, since rechargables pay for themself quite fast if you use the light often(which I guess you do since you have made the total investment in first place). So what am I missing? :thinking:


imagine not having the chance to reload after "deployment", would you rather carry 100 CR123's or 100 17500's to just about match the runtime.
also consider the costs for such a case.

i like the in-between. stock up on CR123's, and use a few rechargeables until you cant.


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## bwaites (Apr 5, 2007)

The problem is keeping enough rechargeables present and keeping them charged over time.

Eneloops WILL run a MagMod, but they get hot doing that. As I understand it, if you get them hot enough, you destroy their ability, over time, to not self discharge. Thus you might as well use regular NiMH cells. They are not designed for the high drains MagMods put on them. 

Plus, they are substantially heavier than 123 cells. 

LiIon is a reasonable idea, but you still have to make a huge investment in cells if you are going to have enough rechargeables for any significant length of run time. I have hundreds of dollars of LiIon's, and I really like the idea, but it's not real cost effective if you don't keep them charged up and use them frequently either.

With Primaries, you can toss them as you use them. (At least if you have a safe place to do it). You have to keep lugging the dc'd rechargeables.

Bill


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Apr 5, 2007)

Primaries are simply way more reliable and convenient to use. You could be living on the top of the Everest for 10 years under the worst weather conditions, but your CR123s would still work flawlesly. CR123's are the ultimate batteries for the serious outdoorsman, hunters, mountain hikers, expeditionists, intercontinental trekkers and military or law enforcement operators.


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## AndyTiedye (Apr 5, 2007)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Primaries are simply way more reliable and convenient to use. You could be living on the top of the Everest for 10 years under the worst weather conditions, but your CR123s would still work flawlesly.



Having to hike DOWN Everest to buy more primaries would really suck though.


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## seery (Apr 5, 2007)

AndyTiedye said:


> Having to hike DOWN Everest to buy more primaries would really suck though.


Very true...but hiking UP Everest to buy more primaries would suck more!


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## LiteTheWay (Apr 6, 2007)

And if you had good crank lights you would not have to hike up or down. As before, this is the sort of scenario where crank lights come into their own. Cranks with a Seuole or Cree would be great but I have not seen any of those yet.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 6, 2007)

Jim, I really appreciate your last two notes. Hey we both know that you have at least 25 times the experience and knowledge on this whole subject of lights, electronics, engineering, etc.

Whenever someone gives their opinions pro/con about anything it is always from *their own personal* experience, opinions, requirements, feelings, etc. It has been my experience when someone argues about this type of light, that type of computer operating system, choosing Intel vs. AMD CPU, Blu-Ray vs. DVD-HD, my city vs. your city, etc etc....that it is not a personal attack or insult. It is all about how one person sees an item through their own filters....and obviously what is important and useful to me has nothing to do with someone else...so I clearly give you that point you asked for...and assumed you would have taken it that way to start with.

Likewise, when someone gives criticisms/shortfalls about something such as a light...that is not a personal attack. It is their opinion about the thing...limited by their own knowledge and experience. Hopefully there is some degree of evidence and logic to their opinion, but that does not mean they are correct (or incorrect) in their understandings, assertions, or facts. The Global Warming assertion being caused strictly by man-made CO2 emissions/pollution, and totally ignoring all the evidence and respected scientific opinion of increased solar activity and other possible issues is an example of seemingly accepted facts that are not being looked at and explored objectively.

For example, I had not really considered a power failure scenario like Katrina because I have never been without power for more than an hour in my entire life. I have backup generators, and just never get hit where I have lived. Likewise, I am always within reasonable contact to a car where I can use my portable 12V charger to charge any rechargeable battery I have, or can take a handful of extra rechargeable cells with me. For longer camping night time illumination, I still use portable gas lanterns or a campfire.

There are certainly scenarios where the best choice (albeit the most expensive if done repeatedly, or for many hours at a time) is disposable Lithiums. I remind all those who are talking about disposing of them, that it is not the best for the environment if you are a greenie.

I have no reason to question the 65% BL==>TL, but there is still much mischief in how lumens are represented. There is the size, character, and quality of the reflector...the issue of regulated constant voltage delivered to the bulb, vs. timing of the charge drainage....the issue of a central hotspot that can be dramatically brighter than a global Integ. Sphere would represent...the issue of the type, age, condition, chemistry, and number of cell volts used with a bulb. 

For just those reasons off the top of my head, I rely more on beam shots that are properly done to get an idea of beam characteristics. That still has some potential issues such as photo timing and techniques, reflector focus/flood issue, type of target illuminated, ambient conditions, etc.

I have read and looked at many thousands of posts on this and other flashlight sites and forums, so I have come a long way since you and I were talking about L2's and other stuff a couple years ago. I probably would have bought an M6 in that first year if you didn't stop making your M6-R's. No way I would want to be dealing with the AWR fiasco, or worrying what happens if the delivered product (being optimistic) fails. Seeing how my L2 and M4 hemorrhaged through 123's, even though I can afford to buy hundreds of the cells, it just left me feeling like I was being ripped off without a rechargeable option.

I still find the diffuse reflector style of most SF lights as too "floody" for my needs, and I can get a pretty decent idea of the M6 by using my M4, and sure it works great for illuminating my path, but not the farther distances I need exposed clearly. Other than times totally away from civilization, most of the time I am outside at night, I run into just enough street/road/car lights to ruin whatever night vision I might have started getting. Thus, I need a light that works without taking night vision into account.

I have my maglite mods setup either with the resistance of FM's stock mag parts, and/or using the several regulated hotdrivers I was able to get before the AWR crisis hit the fan, and/or have learned which bulbs to use with which cells to make sure I get way more hours that the rating says. I have 6 Mag85's and only have lost two bulbs in over 100 hours of use because I was testing how high I could go on the voltage (how long to rest after NiMH charge) before flashing. I run my Mag85's either with some combination of 3 x Li-Ions, or 9 x NiMH. Some have hotdrivers, some have spring/switch fixes, &/or KIU to tweak voltage delivered to the bulb. 

FM's custom made Carley 43W bulb runs beautifully with 4 x Li-Ion hot off charger, and I have at least 12 hours on a single bulb so far...which is my brightest non-100W mag.

Here is about 2/3rds of my Mags, but none of my LED's or Spotlights.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 6, 2007)

Maybe I should give it a chance and speak from experience after reading all these comments about other althernative rechargeable solutions...what's your opinion about this potential deal? Assuming they are not from a hijacked UPS truck shipment. I don't know that 25 post member though.


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## Lobo (Apr 6, 2007)

Regarding rechargables vs primarys. If I were in a situation where I was carrying more than 2 sets(100???) of batteries for my lights, then I'm obviously doing something wrong. When I'm out in the "field" for a longer time, torches and batteries aren't my primary concern, I have a lot of other stuff to carry. My primary light is something that doesn't eat up all my batteries. IF I brought a high lumens light, it will only be used for shorter bursts of light. Generally when I use high lumen lights, it's in situation when I'm not stuck in the "field" and one or two sets of batteries will do, and I usually have time to prepare my rechargables before. But of course, everybodies mileages varies, it depends on how you use your lights. So thanks you all for answering my question.


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## tussery (Apr 6, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Maybe I should give it a chance and speak from experience after reading all these comments about other althernative rechargeable solutions...what's your opinion about this potential deal? Assuming they are not from a hijacked UPS truck shipment. I don't know that 25 post member though.


That's not a bad deal but like you said it is hard to trust a 25 post member. I paid $279.30 for mine from Tactical Supply with the inventory reduction but he is all out of M6's now.


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## js (Apr 7, 2007)

Lux,

I don't think you'd be very happy with a SF M6. Even with the HOLA, it won't be brighter than any of your 1185 lights. If you use R123's and the MN61 it _might_ be bright enough for you, but you will only have 17 minutes of runtime. If you got your hands on an HD-M6 pack and had 35 minutes of 630 lumens in that package, you might be satisfied, but overall, I'd say you are very well informed about lights, and about what will make you happy and what won't.

Trust your instincts. Just 'cause I love the M6, doesn't mean you need you give it another chance! It's very admirable of you, though, and I know you'd like it better than your M4--BUT, I'm sure it won't satisfy you overall. Not enough throw for you. Not enough output/runtime.

Also, I'm right there with you on that last sentece!


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## GeorgePaul (Apr 7, 2007)

js said:


> I don't think you'd be very happy with a SF M6. ...


js- Isn't this a bit off topic? Wouldn't it be better to open a new thread to talk about the merits/faults of the M6?


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## bwaites (Apr 7, 2007)

George, have you READ this thread, or are you just jumping in here?

This thread went way off the initial premise very early and great deal of it is about the merits of the M6 vs. the MagMods.

Bill


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## GeorgePaul (Apr 7, 2007)

bwaites said:


> George, have you READ this thread, or are you just jumping in here.


Yes, I've read everything. I just think that it's better for the content of a thread to match its topic, for the obvious reasons.


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## XtreMe_G (Apr 7, 2007)

bah, there's tons of incan vs led threads.....and i've been enjoying the derailment of this thread. js and bwaites sure did an awesome job convincing me to give the m6 a try


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 7, 2007)

Yeah, I agree with how effective they were, XtreMe_G.....look at how far I came from where I started on the subject. It did make for an interesting thread to read, and gave a chance to present/examine the reasons & evidence on several relevant subjects. 

IMHO, the assumptions resulting in a veritable "gray zone" about bulb lumens/torch lumens is rarely examined carefully. That alone made this a worthwhile discussion...and the accuracy of lumen ratings does apply to the ratings bantered about with LED's, Incandescents, HID's, or even a gas lantern.

There are so many lumen rating factors that are rarely considered such as: final delivered bulb voltage, timing of measurement in battery discharge cycle, WA's re-rating URL voltage/current accuracy, bulb brand/model quality, reflector (size, texture, quality, degree of focus), ambient rating conditions (i.e. heat, dust, humidity affects light output), glass/plastic lens (quality and cleanliness), quality of integrating sphere, central beam hotspot vs. surrounding beam measurement of lumens, etc.


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## LiteTheWay (Apr 8, 2007)

Yeh and we even considered crank lights as a solution in some of the mooted disaster scenarios.

But whatever, we always get very learned comments from JS and I learn heaps.

ARE THERE ANY CRANKS OUT THERE WITH A CREE?


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 8, 2007)

I have a Fenix P1D-CE Cree on my keychain. It's a nice indoor/car/tent/keychain light.

Hey that GB possibility of M6 just catapaulted up about 10 notches for me, when someone asked the guy about his location with low post number...and he gave about the best answer you could.


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## petrev (Apr 8, 2007)

Hi

OpticsHQ.com (no relation) have a CPF discount offer of ~$308 (inc. shipping) and you can choose CB/HA version too ! Current stock shown as 6xCB and 6xHA here or last post.




opticshq said:


> "Here is the ordering/coupon details: All listed prices will be suggested retail. You would need to purchase and complete an order for membership for $5.00 (use coupon *CPFM* on checkout for $5.00 rebate) and then login. With the member prices, you can then add the product you are interested in (make sure that you add to basket AFTER you login as a member) and use the *CPF5* coupon for 5% instant rebate. The membership will give you an automatic 5% discount on all of our other products, however the CPF5 coupon will be good only for SF, HDS, and Gladius products. NOTE: 5% discount or Free Shipping DOES NOT apply to batteries."



or latest version


OpticsHQ said:


> *Price check/ordering details*:
> All listed prices will be suggested retail.
> In order to see discounted prices, click on this link membership and add it to basket. Click checkout and fill out all the required information. On the next page, use coupon *CPFM* for $5.00 discount, making the order *FREE *(you will not need a credit card or anything else). Once the order is *completed* (meaning you would receive an order number and e-mail confirmation of the order placed), you can login to view discounted pricing. The membership will also give you 5% discount on all of our other products, such as Night Vision, EoTech, Aimpoint, Day Scopes, etc. *Note:* these discounts and free ground shipping are not applicable to HDS lights and accessories (you get various free offers instead).
> 
> ...



Cheers


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## js (Apr 8, 2007)

Lux,

I agree about the answer given. Definitely a good answer.

Anyway, I forgot to mention before that if you still have your M4, you can convert that to run on the MN21 and two 18650 Li-ion cells by boring out the inside diameter to accept an 18mm cell. You get about 20+ minutes of runtime from the direct drive configuration with the 18650's, and it would be the exact same lamp and head as an M6, just with a longer and skinnier body. Just a thought--if you still own your M4.

If money is no object, then, yeah, you might just as well get your hands on an M6 and check out the MN20 and MN21 and compare the beams side by side with your various mag mods and FM mods and so on. If you don't like it, you could sell it without taking much (if any) of a loss. BUT, if money IS an issue, you can probably find someone willing to do a temporary swap with you, an M6 for one of your cool lights, for a couple, three weeks or something, then return. I've experienced a great many lights this way, thanks to people like Bill Waites and Ginseng. It's nice not to have to buy and sell lights, or buy and keep lights, that you maybe aren't sure about.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 9, 2007)

Oh now that's a nice set of ideas. Yeah, I still do have my M4....long neglected. So the head/reflector is the same? What should I use to bore it out? I don't have a drill press, but do have Dremel, regular portable drill, Vise holder.

I also had gotten two of the A19 extenders to use 3 x Pila 600s (aka: 17670 / 168S), but was never that happy with the long tube with black A19's vs. Gun Metal HA.


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## bwaites (Apr 9, 2007)

Lux, I wouldn't try to bore that long a body with a dremel. REALLY patient people have done shorter ones, but that is a LONG run.

You can buy a LEEF body that fits 2x18650 here for 59.99, which for me would be 100 times easier and eliminates the risk of screwing up:

http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2610

Then you have essentially an M6 with a thinner body, and can use rechargeables!!

Bill

Bill


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## js (Apr 9, 2007)

Lux,

You'll definitely need something more professional than a dremel or drill press! I know someone who did this mod. I'll ask him how he did it. Plus, I know how I'd do it. But I have access to a machine shop at my work, so it makes it easy. We have lathes and milling machines both. I'd go for the lathe and a long 18 mm drill bit (or maybe a 23/32nd), I think. Or a boring bar if necessary. That's how I enlarged the USL proto-type body--with a boring bar.

So let me get back to you. There may be a way to do this with a regular drill and a tri-hone or something.

But if not, I've always wanted to do this mod, and would be willing to do it for you for free if you sent me the M4, the MN21, and two LG Chem 18650's.

Hey, wasn't there a thread recently here in the incan forum on running the MN21 in the M4? Hmmmm. Might be worth checking that out, too. Anyway, I'll return.


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## bwaites (Apr 9, 2007)

You guys are nuts, nuts I say!

I've tried honing a small body out with drill and tri-hone, it takes HOURS, and I don't have the patience. 

Using a boring bar is reasonable, but when a properly made body is only 60 bucks?

I run the MN21 on two LG Chem 18650's in the above body, works great, just be sure to shut it down when the bright fades a bit!

Bill


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## FlashKat (Apr 11, 2007)

I would use a 18.5mm reamer with a lathe. Remember most 18650 batteries are larger than 18mm in diameter.


js said:


> Lux,
> 
> You'll definitely need something more professional than a dremel or drill press! I know someone who did this mod. I'll ask him how he did it. Plus, I know how I'd do it. But I have access to a machine shop at my work, so it makes it easy. We have lathes and milling machines both. I'd go for the lathe and a long 18 mm drill bit (or maybe a 23/32nd), I think. Or a boring bar if necessary. That's how I enlarged the USL proto-type body--with a boring bar.
> 
> ...


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## js (Apr 11, 2007)

Good call, FlashKat! That's actually why I mentioned the 23/32 bit--because it is larger than 18 mm. And is also why I would have Lux send me the 18650's along with the light. But, I like the idea of a reamer! We have those here at work, in the machine shop, and I bet we have the size I would need.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion.


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## Luna (Apr 11, 2007)

bwaites said:


> Lux, I wouldn't try to bore that long a body with a dremel. REALLY patient people have done shorter ones, but that is a LONG run.



I did 6p+2xA19 body with a dremel once. The catch was I mounted the cable drive in my toolpost with a carbide burr (finished with a drum) and had but the dremel and the lathe on at the same time. I didn't have a boring bar handy at the time 

PS been running the Mn21 in a TB body 2x18650 for some time now with the KT head and SW02 swtich. Works great


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## FlashKat (Apr 11, 2007)

LuxLuthor,

I would seriously take js on the offer of having it done professionally. That is totally cool js is even offering to help out like this.


js said:


> Good call, FlashKat! That's actually why I mentioned the 23/32 bit--because it is larger than 18 mm. And is also why I would have Lux send me the 18650's along with the light. But, I like the idea of a reamer! We have those here at work, in the machine shop, and I bet we have the size I would need.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the suggestion.


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## js (Apr 11, 2007)

FlashKat,

Thanks for the kind words! But, just for the record, I'm not actually a "professional" machinist by anyones standards. But I do have access to a serious machine shop, and I will indeed do a good job on it if I do it.


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## LED61 (Apr 11, 2007)

I'm compelled to make a brief post and reference a couple of excellent and informative posts by JS made back a while ago and which enlightened me in buying both my SF M6's--thanks Jim!!. Not trying to relive old arguments, only for the enjoyment of those following this thread in the incandescent forum, you cannot afford to miss this. What is said has to do with the title, and IMHO anyone suffering by what JS calls "brightness disease" will still go his/her own way. What light is actually NEEDED however, and in terms of efficiency, is another story. The SF M6 with the X-LOLA is simply beautiful and plenty for most tasks. It can be run with cheap $1.00 batteries and will go for 2.5 hours. Anyway, here are the great posts:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1671515&postcount=54

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1672081&postcount=62


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 11, 2007)

FlashKat said:


> LuxLuthor,
> 
> I would seriously take js on the offer of having it done professionally. That is totally cool js is even offering to help out like this.



My only thoughts of hesitation is voiding the warranty, and possibility of selling it, and this could impact the sales....although an argument could made that it might make it more valuable.


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## Patriot (Apr 11, 2007)

LED61 said:


> I'm compelled to make a brief post and reference a couple of excellent and informative posts by JS made back a while ago and which enlightened me in buying both my SF M6's--thanks Jim!!. Not trying to relive old arguments, only for the enjoyment of those following this thread in the incandescent forum, you cannot afford to miss this. What is said has to do with the title, and IMHO anyone suffering by what JS calls "brightness disease" will still go his/her own way. What light is actually NEEDED however, and in terms of efficiency, is another story. The SF M6 with the X-LOLA is simply beautiful and plenty for most tasks. It can be run with cheap $1.00 batteries and will go for 2.5 hours. Anyway, here are the great posts:
> 
> http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1671515&postcount=54
> 
> http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1672081&postcount=62


 
Thank you for these links. Those were very well written and I agree with js's use of the M6. It is specialized and was designed nearly perfectly for its intended purpose. And isn't that what it's all about anyways...intended purpose. I would not want to go to war with a mag85 but it's much better for nightly walks in the desert. I'd take the M6 for just about everything else though. 

P.S. l like your new avatar Lux.


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## XtreMe_G (Apr 12, 2007)

hey lux, how about buying a leefbody instead? that way u dont void your warranty, and if you dont like it you can sell off both together


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 13, 2007)

XtreMe_G said:


> hey lux, how about buying a leefbody instead? that way u dont void your warranty, and if you dont like it you can sell off both together



Ummmm......leefbody? :huh2:


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## tussery (Apr 13, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Ummmm......leefbody? :huh2:


One of these aftermarket Surefire bodies that accept 18650's http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2610


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## bwaites (Apr 13, 2007)

Gee Lux, I talked about it way back in Post 94!! I even gave you the link for the right one!!

Here it is again!

http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp...ROD&ProdID=2610


Bill


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## TKC (Apr 13, 2007)

*I still ike my incans. I own 5 SF E1e's, and several other SF's that are all incan. I do not plan on getting rid of them. Yes, the technology for LED's is always changing, and yes, I DO own some LED's, but I am still keeping and using my incans, simply because I like them.*


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## zehnmm (Apr 13, 2007)

Most of what I have are incans. I do have two LEDs: KL1 in a VG 3-cell body powered by 2xprotected 17500s; and KL4+Aleph 2x body+Aleph 2-stage tailcap. This latter LED light is the one I take camping. This light on low is good to read by in your tent at night. Great runtime. The light on high is good for walking around the tent at night, etc. Works good hiking on trail at night. If I use the E2E body, can clip it to my baseball cap to have equivalent of a headlamp.

But, sigh ..., as much as I like my KL4 setup, I am smitten with the incans. When tracking downed game, I go with an incan. Most of the time I use my WE 100X Rattlesnake. Have also used TL3. 

Around our house, here in the mountains of New Mexico, we have deer, elk, bears, coyotes, mountain lions, to mention a few. When outside my house checking on things, I use my Mag610 with an AWR hotdriver, which has some 1300 torch lumens and it can run for a total of about 23 minutes. Not a problem to run it 3 or 4 minutes continuously. It throws well over 200 yards. Sort of like an HID without the startup wait. To date, it is my favorite light.

Best regards to all.


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## Glockstersharp (Apr 13, 2007)

I can't really say that one is better than the other as they serve different purposes. LEDs are great for lighting up the immediate area and having a long runtime whereas the incans throw further out and are great outdoors. But when you really want to reach out and touch someone - the HIDs rock! :rock:


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## MikeSalt (Apr 13, 2007)

Just another thought on this issue. As you drive LEDs to higher currents, the efficiency reduces significantly. Incandescents work the other way round. An overdriven bulb is MORE efficient than normal driving. Therefore, the overdriven end will almost always be ruled by the incans.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Apr 13, 2007)

MikeSalt said:


> Just another thought on this issue. As you drive LEDs to higher currents, the efficiency reduces significantly. Incandescents work the other way round. An overdriven bulb is MORE efficient than normal driving. Therefore, the overdriven end will almost always be ruled by the incans.


 Well said!


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## js (Apr 13, 2007)

bwaites said:


> Gee Lux, I talked about it way back in Post 94!! I even gave you the link for the right one!!
> 
> Here it is again!
> 
> ...



Bill, nice of you to join us! It's about time!

I was really hoping you would pop in here a week ago and offer us your wisdom regarding the SF M6 and mag mods. Ah, well. Twas not to be.

BTW, what does "bwaites" stand for?


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## MikeSalt (Apr 13, 2007)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Well said!


 
Why thank you.

I am neither an LED or Incan fanboy. I realise that different types of flashlight are required for different purposes.

But before anyone decides which side of the fence you fall, make sure that you do check out a good quality Welchs Allen, SureFire or Pelican Xenon bulb.

Just yesterday, I built my ROP high with Pelican 3854H bulb, and I am in love with this bulb. Such a beautiful output of light!


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## bwaites (Apr 13, 2007)

js,

Funny boy! 

Bill


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 14, 2007)

tussery said:


> One of these aftermarket Surefire bodies that accept 18650's http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2610



Hmmm I missed that earlier post, bwaites. Basically, these are wider tubes that hold two 18650 cells = 7.4V ....then you put in a MN21 bulb? Is there any downside to doing this in terms of bulb life, etc? I'm not sure what the current draw is of that bulb, and whether the protected 18650 will not light due to the protection circuit.


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## tussery (Apr 14, 2007)

AW's protected 18650's may strike up the lamp on first click.


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## FlashKat (Apr 14, 2007)

AW recommends unprotected batteries for incandescent lights, but it seems everyone suggest protected. I prefer unprotected batteries.


tussery said:


> AW's protected 18650's may strike up the lamp on first click.


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## bwaites (Apr 14, 2007)

AW's new Protected 18650's will run the lamp on first strike, I believe.

I use unprotected LG 18650's however.

I closely monitor them for equal charge levels.

I do not believe that there will be either significantly shorter or longer lamp life running them on the LiIon cells, but that is not scientific, only gut feeling and experience.

Bill


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 14, 2007)

bwaites said:


> unprotected LG 18650's



What brand are those? LG ?


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## FlashKat (Apr 14, 2007)

I am betting bwaites has these: http://www.batteryjunction.com/li18cyce326h.html


LuxLuthor said:


> What brand are those? LG ?


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## 325addict (Aug 10, 2021)

Although I every time, now and then, buy new LED-lights, I every time run back FASTER and harder to my beloved incans, just due to ONE thing: I cannot stand the terrible light color of most LED flashlights... most of the time, I use the E1e and C3 Centurion from Surefire, but also modified Mags, and even very old Daimon Focus flashlights that are older than I am. With newer powering options like 21700 batteries instead of those 2R10 "duplex" batteries (don't forget to change the bulbs though), these lights suddenly are more interesting than ever! Small, long runtime with 5Ah battery and quite bright with some 4V / 500mA or even 850mA halogen bulb in them!
But you can also make a very interesting long-running low output light from it, that will serve you perfectly at night. Just take a 3.5V / 0.2A bulb and it will run for 25 hours, giving enough light to safely walk in your home without stumbling over something. If only a friend of mine had done this... he fell at night, and his head got into a sharp metal cabinet part of an amplifier that had its lid unscrewed.... you will see this on him for the rest of his life. That scar will never heal :-(


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## Jean-Luc Descarte (Aug 11, 2021)

What a time capsule, this thread.


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## greenpondmike (Aug 11, 2021)

325addict said:


> Although I every time, now and then, buy new LED-lights, I every time run back FASTER and harder to my beloved incans, just due to ONE thing: I cannot stand the terrible light color of most LED flashlights... most of the time, I use the E1e and C3 Centurion from Surefire, but also modified Mags, and even very old Daimon Focus flashlights that are older than I am. With newer powering options like 21700 batteries instead of those 2R10 "duplex" batteries (don't forget to change the bulbs though), these lights suddenly are more interesting than ever! Small, long runtime with 5Ah battery and quite bright with some 4V / 500mA or even 850mA halogen bulb in them!
> But you can also make a very interesting long-running low output light from it, that will serve you perfectly at night. Just take a 3.5V / 0.2A bulb and it will run for 25 hours, giving enough light to safely walk in your home without stumbling over something. If only a friend of mine had done this... he fell at night, and his head got into a sharp metal cabinet part of an amplifier that had its lid unscrewed.... you will see this on him for the rest of his life. That scar will never heal :-(


+1 on that.


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## bykfixer (Apr 19, 2022)

As the LED lumen wars keep raging on, going from max output to who has the best color rendition a well balanced incan beam is still the best, regardless of what computer generates charts and graphs say. 

As time passes less and less people use the old fashioned light bulb anymore. Meanwhile the rest of us get to enjoy the virtues of a technology now seen as outdated. 

Long live the light bulb'd flashlight.


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## ledbetter (Apr 19, 2022)

bykfixer said:


> Long live the light bulb'd flashlight.


Nostalgia won’t last and either will the bulbs. Maybe your lifetime and that’s it. Too expensive to produce and inefficient to operate. And fragile. Enjoy your “good old days” moment because it’s already passed. I suppose people felt this way about candles…


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## bykfixer (Apr 19, 2022)

Light bulbs are still being produced and used all over the world by the millions.


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## ledbetter (Apr 19, 2022)

Firewood is still used for cooking millions of meals.


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## idleprocess (Apr 19, 2022)

bykfixer said:


> As time passes less and less people use the old fashioned light bulb anymore.


I've got a few in stock. I just don't use them any more. I suppose I could source some rechargeable cells amenable to filament current draw but that only solves half of the _consumption_ problem which is less about cost than the logistics of sourcing and implementing replacements.

I also just don't have the love of incandescent spectrum that some have.


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## Olumin (Apr 19, 2022)

Im still using halogens to light most of my rooms. They seem to last longer then the LED fixtures Ive tried (& certainly the florescent ones), & the light is so much lovelier. Especially in the kitchen they make everything look more delicious lol. Many are still original from when the house was built, in that same time Ive replaced at least a dozen LED and florescent fixtures. I think Ive replace 1 or 2 halogen bulbs in that time (12 years).

I think the problem with many integrated LED fixtures is that they trap the heat with no or little way of dissipating it, which will severely lower the lifespan of these fixtures. Heat is no problem for incandescent fixtures.


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## bykfixer (Apr 19, 2022)

idleprocess said:


> I've got a few in stock. I just don't use them any more. I suppose I could source some rechargeable cells amenable to filament current draw but that only solves half of the _consumption_ problem which is less about cost than the logistics of sourcing and implementing replacements.
> 
> I also just don't have the love of incandescent spectrum that some have.


Understandable.

A few years back I could see the tide turning towards LED, yet reliable bulbs were still plentiful. Replenishment is not an issue for me.

Looking at eBay these days it looks like I had good fortune and better timing.


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## idleprocess (Apr 19, 2022)

bykfixer said:


> A few years back I could see the tide turning towards LED, yet reliable bulbs were still plentiful. Replenishment is not an issue for me.
> 
> Looking at eBay these days it looks like I had good fortune and better timing.


Got a couple P60/P61 hosts that I might ought have supplied with spares a few years back. Ah well. Suspect there are low-output LED drop-ins if I'm inclined.


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## raggie33 (Apr 19, 2022)

i wouldnt give a dollar for a incan old outdated tech but thats just me


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## bykfixer (Apr 19, 2022)

Man you must be serious. Not a single typo anywhere in that statement.


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## raggie33 (Apr 19, 2022)

you know what they say about a broken clock lol


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## aznsx (Apr 19, 2022)

bykfixer said:


> Man you must be serious. Not a single typo anywhere in that statement.



Man, I'm glad I didn't happen to read that with a mouth full of coffee. I'd still be cleaning up the mess


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## vicv (Apr 19, 2022)

You guys are really missing out. Leds are boring!!


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## idleprocess (Apr 19, 2022)

vicv said:


> You guys are really missing out. Leds are boring!!


Grew up in the 1980s when the choices in home lighting were largely 40/60/75/100/120 watt A19 incandescent bulbs, a far smaller variety of can light bulbs than today, or T12 linear florescent tubes (limited to garages and kitchens). Flashlights were 36 flavors of incandescent bulb with the very occasional _krypton halogen bulb_. The modern incandescent has improved to a degree with halogen bulbs and the batteries are immensely more capable than they were then - but the runtimes are short relative to LED, the outputs markedly below similar formfactor LED, and there are bulbs to stock then replace at inopportune times.

But really, it's the _spectrum_ that I just can't enjoy. I can enjoy a good bonfire, a candle, an oil lantern _on occasion_. But not for prolonged periods if I've got a choice. 2700K or even 3000K just don't do it for me no matter how good the CRI. I had a 3500K T5 floro circline fixture at one point that was about ideal but it failed and I didn't want to pay through the nose to replace a discontinued fixture. For sure a pair of 5000K / ~900 lumen bulbs are a bit much outside of a work area, so I mix tints as best I can to get around 3500K.

This has parallels to my preference in flashlights. 3500K - 5000K LED is pretty ideal for me - and I'll for sure take the other benefits like greater output, longer runtime, multiple levels of output, extremely long LED lifespan.

Which isn't to say that my preferences should be yours nor the fact that I don't especially enjoy incandescents means that others shouldn't.


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## defloyd77 (Apr 20, 2022)

vicv said:


> You guys are really missing out. Leds are boring!!


Boring my....foot. Do your incans have disco modes? Didn't think so. How on Earth do you get down, boogie oogie oogie with no disco modes?


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## raggie33 (Apr 20, 2022)

tell me when a incan aaa light can make 100 lumens


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## Bimmerboy (Apr 20, 2022)

defloyd77 said:


> Do your incans have disco modes? Didn't think so.


Ahem... Disco modes were created with incan. And, they can still boogie oogie oggie 'till you just can't boogie no more.

I have an incan that actually sings "I'll See The Light Tonight" by Yngwie Malmsteen before blasting out over 5000 _regulated_ lumens. I used to start my fire pit with it.

Can your LED's do that? Didn't think so. 😜


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## defloyd77 (Apr 20, 2022)

Bimmerboy said:


> Ahem... Disco modes were created with incan. And, they can still boogie oogie oggie 'till you just can't boogie no more.
> 
> I have an incan that actually sings "I'll See The Light Tonight" by Yngwie Malmsteen before blasting out over 5000 _regulated_ lumens. I used to start my fire pit with it.
> 
> Can your LED's do that? Didn't think so. 😜


I don't know? Maybe? This new version of Anduril takes some learnin'.


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## vicv (Apr 20, 2022)

I just have to have a very fast thumb. Also the newest mag charger halogen had strobe!


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## vicv (Apr 20, 2022)

raggie33 said:


> tell me when a incan aaa light can make 100 lumens


True but why do I need that? 100 lumens is overrated when 2 lumens can do the job just fine😋


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## bykfixer (Apr 20, 2022)

I remember a few years back reading about 150 lumen solitaire. It used coin cells and a TL3 bulb.


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## raggie33 (Apr 20, 2022)

vicv said:


> True but why do I need that? 100 lumens is overrated when 2 lumens can do the job just fine😋


for real in my mind i worry someday ill be in the woods and ill hear a noise and 2 lumens dont shine far enough to see the source of the noise btw this happened to me on the beach of the lake .but i still have no idea what it was other then ir apeared to have hair it was long and it would make a spashing sound and disapear under the water reapearing a minute or so latter


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## Megalamuffin (Apr 20, 2022)

I was curious why so many people on this forum held the 6p in such high regard so I bought one last year, never intending to use the lamp and just a malkoff, but while waiting on the malkoff to arrive I tried it out with the lamp and just loved it. I don’t recall specifically any of the incans I had or used as a kid, because they didn’t come close to the p60. Now I have two 6p’s, a c2 and a z2.

In january I bought an incan executive defender. What a wonderful light that is and its used often. I bought a teardrop head e2 yesterday. No led conversions will be happening to either. These classic surefires are such nice lights and it’s because of those I’ve become a huge fan of incans. I wanted a surefire back in their heyday, but was a kid and it never would have happened then. If only I hadn’t arrived so late in the game…


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## vicv (Apr 21, 2022)

raggie33 said:


> for real in my mind i worry someday ill be in the woods and ill hear a noise and 2 lumens dont shine far enough to see the source of the noise btw this happened to me on the beach of the lake .but i still have no idea what it was other then ir apeared to have hair it was long and it would make a spashing sound and disapear under the water reapearing a minute or so latter


I was being funny. Only 2 lumens is generally not enough except going to to bathroom in a dark house. But am also not walking around in the woods with a single AAA light either. But I don’t think that a AAA light needs to be 100 lm either. To me anyway. I I don’t even like the ergonomics of a light like that for carry. I’d prefer an 18650/2x cr123 to a 2-3 C sized light for that. Hey if someone prefers led, knock yourself out. But I think a lot of the people saying “oh never carrying that garbage,” maybe hasn’t had a chance to use a good one. It doesn’t even have to be a surefire. Go to kaidomain. Get one of there 6p knockoffs. Get a $3.99 3.7v 15w xenon drop in and power it with an 18650. I think you’ll be surprised when you take it outside. Probably not impressive if you’re used to 2000L + pop can lights. But those lights never impressed me. As fun as it is, it’s quite impractical to make everything in your field of view a blazing backdrop


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## Megalamuffin (Apr 21, 2022)

The 14 lumens of a minimag is low enough, definitely won’t be purchasing an incan solitaire.


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## bykfixer (Apr 23, 2022)

When I was restoring antique flashlights the incan solitaire put out just the right amount of light to inspect the barrel while removing tarnish on hard to see copper parts. Part of the charm was the adjustable beam.

I remember reading here for years how much the solitaire incan sucks because its 2 lumens is not bright enough by people saying 1 lumen moonlight mode is too bright.


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## vicv (Apr 23, 2022)

Ya I’ve always found that ironic as well. The solitaire is quite a nice light to find the bathroom at night. I generally go to bed an hour or so after my wife. I don’t want to wake her. But we live in the middle of nowhere so it’s very dark. And we both like it dark for sleeping. So navigating the house in the dark is difficult. I usually use the solitaire to find my way to bed. It’s plenty of light to see by but doesn’t disturb her. Lately I’ve been using the red leds from my A2 for that role, but that’s probably due more to how new it is (to me) and how much I like using it. And for that use, the runtime of the solitaire is basically infinite. I’ve been using it for years to get to bed. Still on the original bulb


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## bykfixer (Apr 23, 2022)

So do you use any LED flashlights vicv?
I lived in a spot one time that was so dark at night the stars were bright enough to see by. On full moon night I'd wear a ballcap pulled down over my eyes. It was awesome.
LED tech was still in diapers and an incan minimag was all you needed at that place. It could cast plenty of light to see what animal was causing that rustling sound in the woods nearby. 

Where I live now you can drive around at night without headlights on and not realize it. In order to not have to use a big ole 4 or 5 D light I use small LED lights like an ML50 or a SureFire number mostly for lighting up all the shadows. But one of my favorites is an incan Maglite 4c with a 3 cell bulb.


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## vicv (Apr 23, 2022)

I do occasionally. I’m not against led they just don’t offer anything I need. I live in the country. I’ll take my dog for an hour or so walk most nights and there’s 2 streetlights on the walk so it’s mostly by starlight. In those conditions, 40L is plenty and an hour of runtime is all I need. And I don’t use a light the whole time. I’m not afraid someone is gonna come get me and I need to blind them.
I don’t have dark corners I need to illuminate. Mostly just don’t want to be run over. And I like lights so I use them.
I do find incans more pleasing to the eye and I just like them more. My discovery of the sst-20 4K might have something to say about that. Need to get it in a good light. But I have like 8 led lights and a few headlamps. And occasionally I do pull one out to use. Like my ml50lx. I love the feeling of that in the hand. But don’t care as much for the cool colour temp. My polystinger is a great light, and in the winter I’ll use it more. Mostly due to the fact that it’s poly body doesn’t radiate heat to my hands. I don’t have a poly Incan. They’re all aluminium.
Oh ya on that mag. Mine is a 3D with a 3 cell bulb but holding 4 C cells in a tube and the tailcap spring backwards. It’s a good light. All my classic mags also have spring bypass done in the tailcap and switch


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## bykfixer (Apr 23, 2022)

Wait a second……a 3D can hold 4 c cells? 
Neeeeeeat!!


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## vicv (Apr 23, 2022)

bykfixer said:


> Wait a second……a 3D can hold 4 c cells?
> Neeeeeeat!!


Heck ya! 1” scepter/pvc And flip your tailcap spring backwards. You don’t even need to remove the anodization from inside the tail cap. It still makes electronic connection at the rim where the spring normally sits on to. Without flipping around the spring it’s too long


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## bykfixer (May 7, 2022)

Been using the 1950's Tom Thumb 1aa with a 112 bulb as a 2am nature call light lately. 
Think "floody solitaire".


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## flashflood (May 7, 2022)

bykfixer said:


> View attachment 27411
> 
> Been using the 1950's Tom Thumb 1aa with a 112 bulb as a 2am nature call light lately.
> Think "floody solitaire".


For that application you really want throw, not flood.


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## Jean-Luc Descarte (May 8, 2022)

flashflood said:


> For that application you really want throw, not flood.


Very true. Flood during a nature's call at night is not auspicious at all...


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## aznsx (May 9, 2022)

vicv said:


> My discovery of the sst-20 4K might have something to say about that. Need to get it in a good light.



Be careful with that thing. I can say from experience that the SST-20 R9080 4K can be habit-forming indeed


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## vicv (May 9, 2022)

I have a hard time telling it from a well driven incandescent to be honest. I mean I’m still stubborn so I keep using my incans, but it’s very nice. A 95 cri led is nice


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## aznsx (May 9, 2022)

vicv said:


> I have a hard time telling it from a well driven incandescent to be honest. I mean I’m still stubborn so I keep using my incans, but it’s very nice. A 95 cri led is nice



My wallet shelled out for 4 lights with that emitter last year. Two of the smaller ones are now my most-used lights inside around home (and have been for some time), while larger ones now accompany me when I'm going to be out in the 'real' world (natural terrain) near or after dark. I guess my actions / experiences speak for themselves, so I won't even get more detailed. My preferences have spoken for me, so I'm listening!

My other likes from that experiment that started last year (and continues) are sporting 219C 4K 90+(?)CRI. They're a close second with a little different (and also useful) dispersion pattern, but the hi R9 of the SST seems to give it a little edge in that respect.

I've learned a lot during this experiment. Spectrum analyzers and data and theories are absolutely wonderful, but in the end it's the 'end-to-end' human optical system's opinion that counts most, and actual experimentation in real world conditions has been 'enlightening' (surprisingly, I must say) for me.


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## bykfixer (May 10, 2022)

A couple years back a fellow put together a group buy of Malkoff drop in modules with SST emitters. I'd never heard of any SST since I was a little kid and SST was a company that made toy cars. 

Intrigued by the idea of an LED that puts out around 25 lumens I got in on the action. A Brinkmann maxfire sat on my nightstand table largely unused since it had a special (and hard to find) bulb. 

The Malkoff M61N4L arrived and when installed in the maxfire it was not easy to tell it wasn't a light bulb. The beam from that LED had a light bulb-esque shape to it. Glad I bought that module. If I recall it has a 4000 kelvin tint. And I'm sure in side by side white wall tests the difference between that and a maxfire bulb would be obvious. However, after sticking it in a flashlight head and pressing the on button it was treat to behold. 

I still prefer this dude……





A generic 2c cell using a PR2 bulb


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## aznsx (May 11, 2022)

bykfixer said:


> A couple years back a fellow put together a group buy of Malkoff drop in modules with SST emitters. I'd never heard of any SST since I was a little kid and SST was a company that made toy cars.
> 
> Intrigued by the idea of an LED that puts out around 25 lumens I got in on the action. A Brinkmann maxfire sat on my nightstand table largely unused since it had a special (and hard to find) bulb.
> 
> ...



If I could remember the day clearly, I'm sure I'd recall that the day I got my Streamlight Strion incandescent, I probably thought that I'd likely never need to buy another flashlight. Although comfortably quaint and nicely naive, sadly that would not prove to be the case. Now I'm using an LED I couldn't have even pronounced then, when an SST was only a very cool aircraft


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## defloyd77 (May 11, 2022)

If you all like the 4000K SST-20, you might want to check out the M61W which sports a 3000K SST-20. No experience with the 3000K myself, but I'm a huge fan of the 4000K, honestly it's a very underrated LED.


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## bykfixer (May 11, 2022)

If the SST is the same tint as the XP-G2 M61W was I prefer the 4000 kelvin.
The XP-G warm version had a look of used batteries in an old incan light where XP-GN had a look of brand new batteries in my stock SureFire 6P.
Either way I like the old school type incan-esque beam pattern of the SST.


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## vicv (May 11, 2022)

Yeah I agree completely. A warm 3,000 k LED just does not look right. To me. Others can disagree. But I do see a 3000k LED as a incandescent with almost dead batteries.


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## Olumin (May 11, 2022)

I just recently went to a local store to get some GU10 halogens when they told me they arent allowed to sell them anymore. Told me to toss my old fixtures in the trash since the EU is putting a ban on incandescents. Now I dont know how true that is since online they are still readily available & have been for years. I know a ban like that made news a few years ago but up to now I never noticed anything. 

A lot of equipment still requires incandescent bulbs, most famously car headlights (which cant usually be replaced by leds due to the reflectors/optics not working correctly with them). I also know of many microscopes still using halogen lamps due their truer colors. Many devices which utilize heat, such as lava lamps. I dont know how such a ban would even be possible, but its certainly a worrying development. It was only a couple months or so ago that I got a few G4s at that very store.


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## defloyd77 (May 11, 2022)

bykfixer said:


> If the SST is the same tint as the XP-G2 M61W was I prefer the 4000 kelvin.
> The XP-G warm version had a look of used batteries in an old incan light where XP-GN had a look of brand new batteries in my stock SureFire 6P.
> Either way I like the old school type incan-esque beam pattern of the SST.





vicv said:


> Yeah I agree completely. A warm 3,000 k LED just does not look right. To me. Others can disagree. But I do see a 3000k LED as a incandescent with almost dead batteries.



I have a warm white high CRI XP-G2 in an Peak El Capitan, yeah, it doesn't look the greatest. I do have a Folomov EDC C2 with a 3000K Nichia E21A and that looks much, much better. Cree never seemed to have the best looking tints.

There aren't to my knowledge any lights on the market other than the Malkoff that use a 3000K SST-20. I'd really like to try one out, but I don't have a host for an M61W and I can't mod myself.


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## ledbetter (May 11, 2022)

defloyd77 said:


> I don't have a host for an M61W and I can't mod myself.


A flashoholic doesn’t have a P60 host? Any 6p/g2 will work. Even a g2 clone from the PRC works fine since it’s mechanical. And Malkoff makes a nice one too with hi/lo.


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## defloyd77 (May 11, 2022)

ledbetter said:


> A flashoholic doesn’t have a P60 host? Any 6p/g2 will work. Even a g2 clone from the PRC works fine since it’s mechanical. And Malkoff makes a nice one too with hi/lo.


I'm not big on PRC clones, besides, putting a Malkoff in a cheapo knockoff feels like putting lipstick on a pig. I've been keeping an eye out for a genuine Surefire for sale, but I always seems to change my mind when I think about the total cost in the end.


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## vicv (May 11, 2022)

A p60 host should stay incan. That host is designed to isolate the light engine from the host. Exactly what you want with an incandescent bulb. Exactly the opposite that you want with an LED. With how many good made LED lights there are out there, there's no need to do this. Maybe 15 years ago when LEDs were new


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## idleprocess (May 11, 2022)

vicv said:


> A p60 host should stay incan. That host is designed to isolate the light engine from the host.


An old-school G2, sure, heat extraction will be a problem since it's almost wholly plastic. A 6P on the other hand can sink heat if the dropin is designed to make good contact with the head.


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## vicv (May 11, 2022)

If the drop-in is a perfect slip fit to the particular then yes it will have good thermal properties. But then it's not really universal anymore. Listen I like the 6p to 9p size lights. They fit really good in the hand and they are nice to use. I just feel that with so many other options out there that are designed from the ground up as a heat sink for the emitter, I see no reason to specifically buy one just to turn it into an LED light. If you have to go through the trouble of foil wrapping the drop in and wedging it into the light, then it's not universal anymore


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## idleprocess (May 11, 2022)

vicv said:


> I just feel that with so many other options out there that are designed from the ground up as a heat sink for the emitter, I see no reason to specifically buy one just to turn it into an LED light.


This is generally true, however the P60 lamp formfactor has become one of those enduring things - like ¼-20 screw threads for camera mounts - that's sprouted a cottage industry around it continuously developing new products around it.


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## defloyd77 (May 11, 2022)

vicv said:


> A p60 host should stay incan. That host is designed to isolate the light engine from the host. Exactly what you want with an incandescent bulb. Exactly the opposite that you want with an LED. With how many good made LED lights there are out there, there's no need to do this. Maybe 15 years ago when LEDs were new



Need? No. Want? Obviously. Not to mention there's nothing out there that compares to a G2 with a low output, high CRI M61 variant with regards to simplicity, reliability and non-aluminum body.


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## vicv (May 11, 2022)

You should try a streamlight polystinger before making that claim!

But yes they are nice lights. I'm just saying that using a light that was specifically engineered to keep the drop ins heat away from the body is a bad choice when making a high powered led light. Something where the pill threads into the body or head is much better. Maglites are the same with the pr based LEDs bulbs that people.used years ago. Not to mention p60 lights are so good as incandescents. Why put an inferior led in it😁


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## muichimon (May 11, 2022)

I've been looking for LEDs that reproduce Incan for years, and they all look alike, but they are all different.
In the end, I concluded that it was best to use P60 instead of Warm White LEDs.
However, compared to 10 years ago, Warm White's LEDs have become more and more excellent.
So I enjoy them not as a replacement for incan but as something else.


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## defloyd77 (May 11, 2022)

vicv said:


> You should try a streamlight polystinger before making that claim!
> 
> But yes they are nice lights. I'm just saying that using a light that was specifically engineered to keep the drop ins heat away from the body is a bad choice when making a high powered led light. Something where the pill threads into the body or head is much better. Maglites are the same with the pr based LEDs bulbs that people.used years ago. Not to mention p60 lights are so good as incandescents. Why put an inferior led in it😁


Does the PolyStinger come in high CRI? 

Why put an "inferior" LED in a G2. Because I like runtime and reliability. Nobody needs to worry about heat with an M61L or LL, even in a Nitrolon body.


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## vicv (May 11, 2022)

I was being facetious. No the polystinger doesn't. Still very good though. And yes I was mostly referring to high power dropins. Like those quad xpl hi MOSFET drive that were popular for a while


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## chillinn (May 23, 2022)

muichimon said:


> I've been looking for LEDs that reproduce Incan for years,



Closest and best I have seen is Nichia E21A @3500K, and this in a light you should know about if you don't already: Noctigon KR4. When ordered with E21A, the FET driver is (somehow) constant current, no PWM. Driver is also regulated for constant brightness, runs ToyKeeeper's Anduril interface, customizable for momentary function, can choose light level with dimmer function or discrete modes. Since I bought two (both E21A, 3500K & 2000K) and used for extensive periods as the only light source, I would not consider purchasing any other brand of LED light again.

All other LED flashlight manufacturers should be doing what Noctigon is doing, but instead we get a lot of bad color temperatures, bad color rendition, light dimming and PWM (which gives me migraines, which is why I care, and everyone else should, too).


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## 3_gun (May 23, 2022)

I have and use both. LEDs are closing the gap but I just ordered replacement bulbs for a couple of incan Streamlights. Why choose?


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## Megalamuffin (May 25, 2022)

3_gun said:


> I have and use both. LEDs are closing the gap but I just ordered replacement bulbs for a couple of incan Streamlights. Why choose?



It’s fun to carry an incan and led at the same time.


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## aznsx (May 25, 2022)

I too thought 'why choose?', but then questioned the whole premise of the question. Then I looked at page 1. 15 years ago. Now I know why the question seems like such an odd one to me. It was far less so 15 years ago. That said, I'm definitely not one of those seeking to replicate incandescent light with LED technology. That's not my objective. My objective is finding things which do the best job of illuminating things in the most accurate and revealing possible way, given what I need to illuminate, and what I most need to see. If that happens to be incandescent, well I've got that right here too!


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## bykfixer (May 29, 2022)

Yup, when this thread was new AZ the LED left a whole lot on the table regarding pleasing tints and life-like color rendering. These days I'd surmize many would not even consider using a light bulb'd flashlight anymore. 
Another thing back then is if you wanted 1000 lumens it _had _to be a light bulb'd flashlight. The LED was not available to the masses that could do that. Yet with enough electricity there were flashlights using a bulb that could. 

When I first arrived here a member (user name minimoog) used to show some of his early 1900's flashlights lighting up a city block like it was daylight. But you had to study bulbs, batteries and build the light. There was just something cool about that. Something went wrong, the CPFr would fix it or improve it. With today's plug n play charger cord refuel it's a simple matter of hitting a switch and light happens. 
Nuttin' wrong wit dat.


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## idleprocess (May 29, 2022)

bykfixer said:


> Another thing back then is if you wanted 1000 lumens it _had _to be a light bulb'd flashlight. The LED was not available to the masses that could do that.


Not in a practical formfactor. I recall seeing a few "1000 lumen" LED flashlights going on 20 years ago that arrayed hundred*s* of 5mm LEDs in a showerhead arrangement, unwieldy to the point one could describe them as _man-portable._



bykfixer said:


> With today's plug n play charger cord refuel it's a simple matter of hitting a switch and light happens.
> Nuttin' wrong wit dat.


Hobbyists working within the limits of some of the newest technology on the market find limits on performance with little regard to cost. While many go down blind alleys - performance extremes, design/operational quirks, and pay little attention to costs - of little interest to the markets, others arrive at concepts that will later prove to be market successes. The markets learn of these design candidates through their own experimentation or from observation of hobbyists and determine a new local minima - within the bounds of technology, cost, performance - then produce new turnkey solutions that require neither an electronics workbench nor machine tools.


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## Megalamuffin (Jun 6, 2022)

This past week at work (and continuing this week) I’ve been using two lights, surefire c3 with lumens factory EO9 bulb and two 17500’s, and a malkoff md3/m91b with hi/low and two 18500’s. The c3 has had the brunt of use and the md3 usually comes out if and when the EO9 needs a cool down or a low mode is necessary.

The EO9 is a pretty bright bulb and plenty of light for most things. The downside is that it gets really hot and shouldn’t be run more than 10 minutes at a time; best used in short bursts. This hasn’t been an issue. I have yet to run the batteries dead in one day even with a fair amount of use. It’s really enjoyable to use, not even the best led quite matches the incan glow and there’s the nostalgia. That being said I’m very glad to have LED’s and not have to pick one or the other. There’s room for both in my pockets.


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## bykfixer (Jun 6, 2022)

I like taking my 2C Kel-Lite to night work at times and using it. It has a pair of LifePo4 18500's and a PR based Mag bulb. When people find out it's a light bulb in a 1974 flashlight they are always surprised.

One year I was using an E2D with a warm tint Tana module and folks thought that was a light bulb, but my favorite was the night a foreman said "SureFire, heck yeah" when he saw it.


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## chillinn (Jun 7, 2022)

For awhile now I'm back to carrying Fivemega's E head E tail in 18350. I have two I use with beat up Elite heads and z68 TN tails, set up lo-hi, so I set one up with MN02 and one with T.customs' socket w/ A3712, and I usually carry one Surefire diffuser with them.










With Keeppower IMR18350 1200mAh, I get over 2 hours w/ the Surefire lamp and a full hour with Tad's. Generally, I only need to carry the bright one during the day and the dimmer one at night, but sometimes I haul both. But I'm pretty much a homebody and don't stray too far.

I have and previously carried, will carry again, 2 single AA Malkoff bodies set up with the same configuration using Vapcell H10 INR14500 1000mAh, but I found I was giving those cells too much attention at the expense of the IMR18350s that were't seeing as much love since the Lumintop FWAA was released. Took awhile to realize how much I hated it.

Backup is a bored E2e w/ MN02, good for nearly 6 hours, and also a LeeF 1x18650, LF tail, z46, T.customs M socket and A6010, which fires on 4.2V even though it's 6V lamp, used for the 1A draw to get 3 hours of lovely light out of an old AW IMR18650 3000mAh.

Though there is little reason for their brightness, other than to walk out on the dock and light up the far side of the creek, I keep an E2e set up with 2x (either AW IMR16340 400mAh or Vapcell T8 INR16340 850mAh), T.customs' E socket w/ A7212, and a LeeF 3x18650, KT4, G4 socket w/ (right now) WA1185 (on 3x KeepPower IMR18650 3500mAh). I suppose it is also fun to shoot them directly down at the water for the reaction from fish. I believe they all think the same thing, and I agree, "too bright!"


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## bridgman (Jul 7, 2022)

If I am out in the middle of nowhere and can only have one light it is usually LED just for reliability, but it's more common for me to carry an incandescent with an LED light for backup.

That said, I did have a few old incandescent lights that did not lend themselves to hot-wiring, and I have put warm LED drop-ins into most of them. Something still seems a bit off (like margarine vs butter) but it's still better than the cold blue LED illumination that was pretty much the only option for so long. I suppose I should try some "neutral" (~4000K) LEDs before I go all in on warm...

A while back I had replaced the Malkoff 60F LED in my Surefire Z2 with an HO-9 and 2x RCR123's and have been using that as my primary light, but today the mailman brought an LF single LED warm D26 module and I'm giving that a try. Certainly a very nice beam and the colour is getting pretty decent - will see how it works outside. That's where incandescent still seems to have an edge over LED.

I figure the next step is to start building thermoelectric generators into incan flashlight heads to turn a bit more of the waste heat into power... and then back into waste heat again I guess.

EDIT - I went back to the HO-9 bulb again. It's possible that LEDs are just not yet able to reproduce the nice white light that you get from an overdriven incandescent. Guess I will have to pick up a neutral LED and try that... actually now that I think about it I have a Convoy S2+ with an XML2 T6-4C LED somewhere in the postal system.


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## 3_gun (Jul 7, 2022)

Last couple of LED lights I've bought were lights trying to match that from an incan. LEDs over 5k/K are just to harsh for heavy use at indoor ranges. Lowest temp I've gone to so far is 3700K but I have an itch to go lower. Kinda having your cake & eating it too.


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## defloyd77 (Jul 7, 2022)

3_gun said:


> Last couple of LED lights I've bought were lights trying to match that from an incan. LEDs over 5k/K are just to harsh for heavy use at indoor ranges. Lowest temp I've gone to so far is 3700K but I have an itch to go lower. *Kinda having your cake & eating it too.*



Well what else you gonna do with that cake😝


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## Flashgordon1776 (Jul 7, 2022)

mdocod said:


> I spend more time over here. I own some powerful LEDs, and they don't even come close to incans in punch power. I guess more people are interested over there because there are always more advancements, as well as many more new LED lights coming out than there are incans... incan is a slower moving crowd I suppose.


Hi I have an old-school SF tactical gun light. Thinking about converting to LED. Someone directed me to a website for Chinese gear and I don't know how to find a conversion kit on that website. Is it really even worth it? And also I have a black flip up lens cover. Is that an IR filter lens? New guy here. So many questions.


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## bridgman (Jul 7, 2022)

Flashgordon1776 said:


> Hi I have an old-school SF tactical gun light. Thinking about converting to LED. Someone directed me to a website for Chinese gear and I don't know how to find a conversion kit on that website. Is it really even worth it?


Do you have a model number for the light ? Agree it's not obvious what upgrade you want but if we knew the model # that would help.

My impression is that the weaponlight incandescent lamp modules need to be a bit smaller than the standard D26 for P6 etc..., but there also seem to be dissenting views about that.


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## Flashgordon1776 (Jul 8, 2022)

bridgman said:


> Do you have a model number for the light ? Agree it's not obvious what upgrade you want.
> 
> My impression is that the weaponlight incandescent lamp modules need to be a bit smaller than the standard D26 for P6 etc..., but there also seem to be dissenting views about that.


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## Flashgordon1776 (Jul 8, 2022)

knucklegary said:


> Did you try taking a look at American website for drop-in modules and info.. These guys are pretty knowledgeable.. malkoffdevices.com
> 
> Unless your on partrol at night wearing night vision goggles, you can pull off that uv flip lens and shelf it.. or leave it on to look tacticool


I will check them out. Still trying to figure out what I need. It's called a drop in module? And will the IR lens work with LED module? I got the light for free so I don't know much about it. I tried looking up the model number but I think it's too old to find.


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## xxo (Jul 8, 2022)

the IR filter won't work with a LED.


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## Flashgordon1776 (Jul 8, 2022)

xxo said:


> the IR filter won't work with a LED.


So is there a way to improve the existing incandescent? Or just sell to a collector and get another IR light? I'm not stuck on it. But if it will do a good job at tactical distances with the filter I'm happy.


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## xxo (Jul 8, 2022)

don't know if there is a brighter incan bulb for that light or not. you might be able to find someone to make you a drop-in with a IR LED, but this would make it IR only/no visible light and you wouldn't need the IR filter.


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## Flashgordon1776 (Jul 8, 2022)

xxo said:


> don't know if there is a brighter incan bulb for that light or not. you might be able to find someone to make you a drop-in with a IR LED, but this would make it IR only/no visible light and you wouldn't need the IR filter.


With NV tactics in play and other people have it. you are visible to them when your light is on.


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## bridgman (Jul 9, 2022)

OK, that seems to be an M951 from the early/mid 2000's, more specifically an "M951 KIT02 WeaponLight Kit". 

General consensus on the internet is that it should take P60/P61 lamp modules, which should give you both the option for an LED drop-in upgrade or a brighter incandescent module.

The stock P60 bulb gives ~65 lumens while the optional P61 bulb gives ~120 lumens. You can go right up to ~380 lumens in that chassis (LumensFactory EO-9 plus two 3.7v rechargable RCR123's) but I am currently running a 320 lumen HO-9 since (a) it seems bright enough and (b) it gives better runtime than the EO-9.

Lumens Factory also offers HO-6 and EO-6 bulbs to use with 6V from your existing 123 batteries, offering 160 lumens / 50 minutes and 200 lumens / 40 minutes respectively:

https://www.lumensfactory.com/en/product.php?cid=19 (that link is just the 6 volt options)

With LED you can go all the way up to stupid-bright (1500+ lumens) and have the choice of either full power only or multiple brightness levels, but you lose the ability to use IR.

Malkoff recommends the use of a fitting ring when using their drop-ins - I don't know but my guess is that you probably want something like that with all LED drop-ins... Malkoff always seems to go an extra step in terms of engineering:









Fitting Ring for Surefire Shock Absorbing Head – Malkoff Devices


Fitting ring to adapt a Malkoff M61 Drop-in to a Surefire shock absorbing head such as the M951 Weapon Light or M2 Combat Light.




malkoffdevices.com





Anyways, a good next step IMO would be to remove the IR filter then unscrew the bezel at the front so you can confirm what kind of lamp is inside the head. Never hurts to pull and check the batteries for leakage as well, although I have never had 123 cells leak on me.


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## fivemega (Jul 10, 2022)

*For more option and higher power incand P60/61 and P90/91 type of modules please see*  *here* *and*  *here**.
They are not available now but lucky people may find one by posting WTB*


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## Flashgordon1776 (Jul 11, 2022)

bridgman said:


> OK, that seems to be an M951 from the early/mid 2000's, more specifically an "M951 KIT02 WeaponLight Kit".
> 
> General consensus on the internet is that it should take P60/P61 lamp modules, which should give you both the option for an LED drop-in upgrade or a brighter incandescent module.
> 
> ...


Hi thank you for all of that info! I would like to stay Incan and keep my 123 batts. Can I use the HO 9? Or is that 9 volt?


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## Flashgordon1776 (Jul 11, 2022)

Flashgordon1776 said:


> Hi thank you for all of that info! I would like to stay Incan and keep my 123 batts. Can I use the HO 9? Or is that 9 volt?


And should I use the fitting ring if staying Incan?


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## bridgman (Jul 11, 2022)

Flashgordon1776 said:


> Flashgordon1776 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi thank you for all of that info! I would like to stay Incan and keep my 123 batts. Can I use the HO 9? Or is that 9 volt?
> ...


You would want to stay with the 6V options:






Lumens Factory







www.lumensfactory.com





That said, there is a lot to be said for a single cell 16650 or similar along with something like an HO-4:






Lumens Factory







www.lumensfactory.com





Almost the same output as an HO-6, with longer runtime plus rechargeable. If you picked up a couple of HO-6 bulbs (for use with 123 primaries) plus at least one HO-4 (for use with rechargeables) that would be a great start.


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## Flashgordon1776 (Jul 12, 2022)

bridgman said:


> You would want to stay with the 6V options:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Got the HO6 with 50 min runtime. No extra bulbs tho. Might go back for the bulbs and ho4 and get rechargeables on amazon?


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## fivemega (Jul 12, 2022)

Flashgordon1776 said:


> I would like to stay Incan and keep my 123 batts. Can I use the HO 9? Or is that 9 volt?


*It is 3 cell (nominally 9 volt) and possible to use with one cell extender and 3 cells of 123
Same extender will also work with pair of 17500 rechargeable.
If you go with HO-4 then you will need single **16650** cell.*


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## Flashgordon1776 (Aug 2, 2022)

fivemega said:


> *It is 3 cell (nominally 9 volt) and possible to use with one cell extender and 3 cells of 123
> Same extender will also work with pair of 17500 rechargeable.
> If you go with HO-4 then you will need single **16650** cell.*


Ok so this thing woke up! Used the ir lense in training and wow! That IR lens actually keeps accidental pressure pad light from escaping. Just put it on before training and wasn't used to the location. Wound up flashing my team right before entry 🙄
Lit up a long dark hallway like daylight. The Incan Light reflects off ceiling tiles very well Impressive intensity for sure.


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## bridgman (Aug 2, 2022)

Glad to hear that happened during training  

It's a big jump from the stock incandescents to the high output bulbs, isn't it ?


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## bridgman (Aug 3, 2022)

That reminds me of a quick question - what changed in bulb technology between the Surefire P60/P61 bulbs and the LF XX-6 bulbs ? The LF bulbs are rated for roughly twice the lumen output at the same runtime.

Or maybe CR123 batteries have improved that much and the difference is "batteries then" vs "batteries now", ie the brighter LF bulbs use more power but battery improvements have kept the runtime relatively constant ?

I suppose the difference could just be more optimistic rating, but I still have an SF P60 bulb and the LFs definitely seem brighter.


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## fivemega (Aug 4, 2022)

bridgman said:


> The LF bulbs are rated for roughly twice the lumen output at the same runtime.


*LF bulbs are Xenon and most of Surefire bulbs are Halogen.*
*LF bulbs are rated at maximum voltage of batteries but Surefire bulbs are rated from begining to end of batteries. (Average voltage)
Voltage design of LF bulbs are slightly lower than Surefire bulbs. So they run slightly harder.
Current draw of LF bulbs are higher than Surefire bulbs.*
*Above statement is for bulbs to run with primary batteries.*


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## bridgman (Aug 4, 2022)

Great answer - thanks !!

In the "interesting reading" department it turns out that many of the halogens are things that I have never heard of... although the ones that were used in bulbs seem familiar. Chlorine first, followed by iodine and bromine.


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## Flashgordon1776 (Aug 5, 2022)

bridgman said:


> Glad to hear that happened during training
> 
> It's a big jump from the stock incandescents to the high output bulbs, isn't it ?





bridgman said:


> Glad to hear that happened during training
> 
> It's a big jump from the stock incandescents to the high output bulbs, isn't it ?


Yes. But I stayed with the H6 for run time.


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## bridgman (Aug 5, 2022)

Flashgordon1776 said:


> Yes. But I stayed with the H6 for run time.


Agree - the HO-6 seems like a great choice. I was including it in the "high output bulb" group since it has something like twice the output of the stock bulb. I prefer the H bulbs myself as well.


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## Flashgordon1776 (Aug 5, 2022)

bridgman said:


> Agree - the HO-6 seems like a great choice. I was including it in the "high output bulb" group since it has something like twice the output of the stock bulb. I prefer the H bulbs myself as well.


This flashlight thing kinda growing on me. LED VS INCAN. Then runtime vs power. Big heavy vs small light etc. sooo many considerations.


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## bykfixer (Aug 15, 2022)

In a completely unscientific test my peach front conjure (Maglite) behavior shows he prefers incan over LED.





See, I have a floor lamp next to his house. It has 3 incan bulbs in a circle and an LED in the center. When the LED bulb is on he goes SQWAWK SQWAWK SWAWK all pissed off like. While the incan bulbs are lit he goes chirp chirp chirp all friendly like.
Seriously.


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## vicv (Aug 15, 2022)

Mine prefers sunlight. And snuggles


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