# Good "Automatic" watches?



## KDOG3

I see the nice Marathon watches at CountyComm (drool!) but the only automatic that they have is a whopping $675!!! Can anyone point me to some nice, "manly & tactical" automatic watches?


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## lonfa

Hi KDOG3
My first time here,Saw your post,
I've had some GREAT deals off a guy who sells remainder(end of model/end of line) watches on Ebay.
He's had something like 27000 deals so is a big time trader.
all his auctions start at $0.01 and generally go to a reasonable price.
I've brought 7 watches off him,No problems and very happy.
I'm in australia, Priced a watch here ($A479.95). and payed(shipped) $A131.90 for it off Premierworld (27138) on ebay
Here's a LINK
This may help,May not but good luck!
Cheers Lonfa


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## SJACKAL

Sure! Try the Seiko 007s, big and manly, looks expensive, but actually affordable, dive rated to 200 meters running on Seiko's 7S26 automatic movement, known for its hardiness. If stock configuration doesn't appeals to you, then go for the MKII customisation, which could made them real military and tactical with stuff like bead blasting and dome crystals to reduce reflections. You probably spend less than a quarter of what the Marathon cost for a stock Seiko SKX007, and less than half the price of the Marathon for a customised one from Bill Yao. Link below.

www.mkiiwatches.com

Good luck.

Edited and added a picture of the Seiko SKX007 in stock configuration:







Picture is not mine, should be belonging to pmwf.com
I like the watch very much and I have one too.


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## Lunal_Tic

Might check out this thread about Seiko 5 watches. 

-LT


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## BobVA

Definitely check out MKII watches and you may also want to look around "The Poor Man's Watch Forum" for some ideas.

http://www.pmwf.com/

Another source of inexpensive watches is West Coast Time:

http://www.westcoastime.com 

If you stick with the Seiko 7s26 movement based watches (e.g. SX007, Seiko 5, etc) or the Swiss ETA2824/2836 series you can get a lot of bang for your buck. 

Another brand you might want to check out is the Hamilton "Khaki" series - just google it and you'll find all sorts of dealers. 

Here's my 007 with a beadblast job, AR crystal, blacked out chapter ring and a dial/hand set from MKII - this started out just like the watch in the picture above:






(The "extra" set of minute markers is the edge of the crystal reflecting the real ones from the dial. Just an artifact of the angle I took the photo from.)

Cheers,
Bob


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## KDOG3

Wow, I like that Seiko! Alot!


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## SJACKAL

Fine example Bob!


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## GadgetTravel

Both Seiko and Hamilton make very good automatic sport watches in that price range. Other possibilities are Oris and Glycine which probably are more new but you can get them used for less. 

A fantastic place to ask information about watches is a forum like this one but dedicated to watches rather than flashlights. One that I have found really useful is:

http://www.timezone.com/

If you go into the forums there you can either search or post what you are looking for and you will probably get a lot of suggestions. Just describe your price range and that you want an automatic sport, military or dive style watch. There are people there that can probably drop 3 or 4 good suggestions in any price range.


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## billgr

how about the vostok europe k3 submariner?

beautiful blue dial...31 jewels...automatic WITH manual stem wind...super luminova [email protected] $185.....swiss movement (old version) acquired from switzerland (aka "stolen" ) by communists in the 40's for use in vostok watches for russian officers.


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## Screehopper

Another vote for the Seiko automatics. I love my SKX007.


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## Deanster

Yep - the Seiko dive series are about the best low-priced automatics out there. I like my 007, but I like the 'Black Monster' even better - SKX779

here's a photo of my personal watch (and hand) off my server:






and links to couple comprehensive reviews with more and better photos:

(includes movement photos and a detailed discussion of the 7S26 movement...) http://www.thepurists.com/watch/features/8ohms/7s26/

http://dgold.bravehost.com/BMReview.html

and a point-by-point comparison of a 007 vs. an Omega Seamaster Pro. Amazing how well the $175 Seiko fares vs. the $1750 Omega. 

http://www.chronoguy.com/horology/svo/


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## bjn70

it's hard to beat the Seiko and Citizen automatics for size, looks and price. If you buy them right you can get the bigger ones for $100-150. There are some Swiss automatics available with a Swiss movement for not that much more money. Tissot and Titoni both make big divers for around $300-350. Actually there are a lot of companies, both Swiss and other, that make watches using the ETA 2824 movement for $150-300.

Right now I have 7 automatics that I wear regularly, the most expensive of which I paid $103 for.


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## morglan

I have a Marathon SAR on the bracelet, and a Seiko 007 on a black NATO strap (as well as an Ollech $ Wajs dive watch and a Poljot Aviator alarm).

The Seiko gets worn more than all the others combined.


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## TooTall

Another vote for a Seiko SKX007K from Mark II Watches.

Except for the bead blasting and band, mine is the same watch as BobVA's. I have had it for about a year and wear it six days a week. One thing to consider is that it is a diver and an automatic so it's kind of big and heavy.


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## KDOG3

Can you get Tritium hands installed on a 007?


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## BobVA

KDOG3 said:


> Can you get Tritium hands installed on a 007?



I've seen it done, but it's a VERY custom job. But you can get a nice mechanical watch with tritium tubes. Check out West Coast Time's M-16 

By tritium I'm assuming you mean the "Traser" gas light tubes, btw. Some watches still use tritium paint and are also referred to as having a "tritium dial" or "tritium hands". 
If you see a little "T" on the dial, it means that the watch uses tritium paint; a typical example is a tiny "T Swiss T" below the "6" on the dial.

Cheers,
Bob


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## PacketStorm

The Citizen Skyhawk comes in many flavors:
Stainless Steel
Titanium
Blue Angels Series

I went for the Titanium Blue Angel model. It is incredibly light.

It uses "Eco Drive" (solar power) so it never needs a battery. Water resistant to 100m.

The Titanium Blue Angels version retails for nearly $600 if you go to a jewelry store.

I got mine online for a steal at $280 or so:
Princeton Watches

They are an authorized distributor of Citizen, so now warranty honoring worries there.

I absolutely love this watch!


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## onthebeam

If you can swing a bit more cash, the Bulgari are great. Some quite good knockoffs to be had all over Asia, too. . .


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## GadgetTravel

PacketStorm said:


> The Citizen Skyhawk comes in many flavors:
> Stainless Steel
> Titanium
> Blue Angels Series
> 
> I went for the Titanium Blue Angel model. It is incredibly light.
> 
> It uses "Eco Drive" (solar power) so it never needs a battery. Water resistant to 100m.
> 
> The Titanium Blue Angels version retails for nearly $600 if you go to a jewelry store.
> 
> I got mine online for a steal at $280 or so:
> Princeton Watches
> 
> They are an authorized distributor of Citizen, so now warranty honoring worries there.
> 
> I absolutely love this watch!



Im a big fan of the Citizen Eco Drives also, but they are not automatic watches, they are quartz. I have a Calibre 8700, also from Princeton Watches and also a great price.


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## GadgetTravel

onthebeam said:


> If you can swing a bit more cash, the Bulgari are great. Some quite good knockoffs to be had all over Asia, too. . .




If I was going to go more in price than the Seikos I would go to something like Glycine, Oris, Sinn or Tutimi. But these will be in the price range of the Marathon mentioned above. I would probably prefer these to the Marathon also, however.


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## Deanster

I'm a bit conflicted on the Citizens. I bought two eco-drives in the first year they came out (1998?), and neither are running now - seems like the batteries have a finite number of charging cycles before they die. Both have been to a Citizen-authorized shop, and they've declined to fix them under warranty. 

My Citizen Navihawk from the same year had an electronic freak-out, went into the shop, they re-set it, and it was OK for a couple years, and now it's a little wiggy on time-zone management. 

I may just have bad luck, but I own three Citizens, and I like the looks and style very much, but none of the three are working right. 

After my experience with the Eco-drives (I've heard the newer ones are better, but I'm done), and the similar stories I've heard about Seiko Kinetics, I'm sticking to automatics and quartz with a replacable battery - the various types of 'rechargable' watches all have the same battery service life issue as every other rechargable device on earth. 

It's really too bad - I really liked my Citizen ecodrive titanium diver a lot, but it just won't run for two days in a row, and that's a deal-killer for me.


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## lhz

My previous experiences with a citizen ecodrive and casio tough solar, both of which died after less than 2years, tell me that quartz(especially the newer ones with 10yr battery power) and mechanical(automatic or handwind) movements last much longer and are more reliable.


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## JasonC8301

One of uncle's had a Seiko Kinetic watch (~$350 I think) and that died within a 4 year time frame. He has been wearing a Rolex since the Seiko died in 2001. 

I am really tempted to get one of those Seiko Daytona's or Flightmasters being sold on ebay by premier world posted by lonfa. After sitting around and thinking about it and eyeing all my watches, I don't need it. But I sure do WANT it. 

I have a Citizen Navihawk (the red Thunderbirds one, not the popular Blue Angels one) like Deanster and I messed it up once I got it (like I set the hand markers into a specific (off) positon when I was playing with the watch and figuring everything out. I tried to read the manual but was like whatever (more like novel.) So I always had to read the digital display and never the hand markers because they were in between numbers. I sent it in 5 months ago and it hasn't missed a beat so far. Not my most accurate watch (that goes to my Tag Link series quartz, doesn't draw the attention of the Rolex Submariner, and not hard use like my Casio G-shock (which survived a war, but I have heard I messed it up due to breaking the seal during a battery change, so I think a strong Casio G-shock replacement is on the way for a wear and tear watch) but a nice piece to own when I decide to color coordinate everything right. 

My Seiko 5 automatic watch is nice and cheap, but not manly/tactical. The Seiko's listed (MK II's and diver's) fit that bill nicely, but besides looking too bulky on my relatively skinny wrists and being a nuisance (I wear a watch for certain outfits but most of the time I try not to wear one if I don't have to, I have my phone to keep track of time) I hate the bad watch tan line is not good either.


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## BobVA

lhz said:


> My previous experiences with a citizen ecodrive and casio tough solar, both of which died after less than 2years, tell me that quartz(especially the newer ones with 10yr battery power) and mechanical(automatic or handwind) movements last much longer and are more reliable.



Same here. My casio solar atomic's battery just packed up after about two years. Won't hold a charge anymore. The cell is actually pretty easy to replace, but impossible to find. Guess that baby's headed for the trash can.

If you go quartz, I'd stick with normal batteries. There are a couple of moderately priced, ultra accurate models out, like the Seiko Perpetuals, that can reliably keep time to within 20 sec/year (and usually do better). 

But back to mechanicals: I've got a nearly century old pocket watch that was overhauled a couple of years ago and keeps time to within a couple of seconds a day. Mechanicals can last a very long time with a little maintenance.

Oh, one caution about Seiko automatics. Generally speaking they CANNOT be handwound (there are some exceptions, but the popular 7s26 movement ain't one of them) so they are a little bit of a hassle to grab on the way out the door if you don't wear it everyday (or want to buy a winder to keep it on).

Cheers,
Bob


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## SJACKAL

Unfortunately a watchwinder is not something a casual consumer is willing to buy and a large number of watch enthusiats don't have them too. I guess if I have the extra money for a winder I probaby buy another watch or flashlight and might have some change left.

That said I prefer to have an all rounder quartz watch lying around for that 'grab on the way out the door' situation.


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## GadgetTravel

SJACKAL said:


> Unfortunately a watchwinder is not something a casual consumer is willing to buy and a large number of watch enthusiats don't have them too. I guess if I have the extra money for a winder I probaby buy another watch or flashlight and might have some change left.
> 
> That said I prefer to have an all rounder quartz watch lying around for that 'grab on the way out the door' situation.



I completely agree. I have 6 automatic or handwound watches. But if I am in a hurry on the way to work I grab a Citizen, Casio atomic or Timex if I wasnt wearing one of the others the night before.


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## stockae92

hi, i think most people covered it

- Yao-ized or not Seiko SKX's, Monster, Samurai (more diver than tactical though)
- O&W got a couple of Mil-type automatic offering
- timefactors broadarrow's PRS-11

i suppose you are not looking at sinn, fortis, SMP, etc (since you wow-ed at the SAR's price tag  )

From what i've heard, Citizen Eco Drives are reasonably reliable. more so than the earlier age Seiko Kinetic (e.g. 5S4? movement). The currently 5S6? movement offering should be reliable since they replaced the old capacitor with a [titanium-something] rechargeable battery. actually, the newer battery will drop right into the older kinetic and allow the watch to have 6 months power reserve and a reliable power source. (a lot of user that had a crapped out old kinetic owner did exactly that)

And the tough solar G are in a simular situation. if you want tough solar but worried about battery crapping out. you can go with something like G2300/2310, GW200 (tough solar Frogman) since they use a different (larger capacity) rechargeable battery than the old ones (GW300, G5600/5700, etc). some of the old ones did have problem with either charging system or the battery so some crap out quick. but i haven't heard a single problem with the G2300/2310 and GW200 yet.

and i imagine Citizen, Seiko and Casio should have made the neccessary update to the charging system or the batteries nowadays so that their offering will be reasonably reliable (after all these years of problems and complains  )


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## Minjin

I've got to say that this thread is the first time I've ever heard of a problem with Citizen's batteries. Consider that Citizen is the largest watch maker in the world and how often we hear about problems with Casio and Seiko rechargeables. 

I'm wearing a Citizen Eco Drive right now and I trust this watch more than any I've ever owned. Being perpetual, I only ever need to unscrew the crown twice a year for DST. The accuracy is good enough that I've yet to see it go beyond 10 secs from atomic. 

Citizen gets a HUGE thumbs up from me. 

Mark


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## bjn70

Automatics are not a problem for "grab on the way out the door", although they do take a couple of minutes more.

If you are real picky about watch accuracy, you will want to set your automatic per a good quartz or per the atomic clock on the internet. If a few minutes one way or the other don't bother you then you could set your watch per the clock in your car, office or whatever.

I put on an automatic on my way to work Monday morning, then set it when I get to work. It starts running as soon as I put it on and winds itself the rest of the day. It doesn't have to be wound before I put it on.


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## GadgetTravel

bjn70 said:


> Automatics are not a problem for "grab on the way out the door", although they do take a couple of minutes more.
> 
> If you are real picky about watch accuracy, you will want to set your automatic per a good quartz or per the atomic clock on the internet. If a few minutes one way or the other don't bother you then you could set your watch per the clock in your car, office or whatever.
> 
> I put on an automatic on my way to work Monday morning, then set it when I get to work. It starts running as soon as I put it on and winds itself the rest of the day. It doesn't have to be wound before I put it on.





Depends on the watch. For instance I have a Nomos that is handwound. Only has hours, minutes and seconds on the dial. Easy enough to set. 

On the other hand my Jaeger LeCoultre master moon has hours, minutes and seconds of course, but it also has day of the week set by the winding stem, and phase of the moon, date of the month and the month of the year set by indented pushers in the side of the case. Plus you cant set the day, month and date when the hour hand is at certain times of the day and you cant set the moonphase at other times of the day (the gears that change them normally are engaged then). Plus, you cant turn the time backwards because apparently that makes the little gears on the moonphase drive, very, very unhappy. 

Most of my others are in between these extremes where I have to set the time on a twelve hour scale and the date. That is pretty easy on my Breitling for instance. I usually keep the JLC on a winder, but I screwed up and put it and an Oris moonphase on the winder and plugged it into an electric socket that was controlled by a switch (duh - switch off, watches stopped)


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## SJACKAL

O&W seems to have some quality issues on the bezel, some amount of play between positions and sometimes slips easily, and the lume dot on the bezel's 12 o clock triangle are often off position too. Otherwise a good watch, but for divers I will go Seiko any day over O&W, unless I want something Swiss, windable and hackable...


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## JKW

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the Tissot Seastar 1000. Strong ETA movement, sapphire crystal and built like a tank. A buddy of mine wears one and it seems to be about -1 second per day when constantly worn. They can be had for about 350.00 if you look. Small watch lovers need not apply, as the Seastar is a big, heavy watch.
I switch out between an Oris T1 and an Omega Seamaster ("Bond watch") and love them both. The Oris survives pretty harsh daily treatment (I work mostly outdoors) without complaint, and though I am sure the Omega could take it as well, it remains just a weekend warrior. Both of these watches are several times the price of the Seastar though, which admittedly performs about as well.


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## SJACKAL

Yeah, Seastar is a good recommendation!


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## GadgetTravel

Yes, Tissot is a good recommendation. I think in the under $500 range Tissot, Hamilton and Seiko are probably the way to go from what I have read. I think Hamilton is worth mentioning again although it was mentioned above. In the $500-$1000 you can get into brands like Oris which are really good quality Swiss watches. The T1 mentioned above is great as are a number of the Oris dive watches. Oris prices on dive watches probably start a shade over $700 (street price, list is more) on rubber straps and a bit over $800 on stainless steel bracelets. They are a REAL value at that price.

Edited to add - after posting this I checked some watches out on some web sale sites.

I found Glycine Combat Date watches for $350. These are really nice looking military style watches, either automatic or manual wind, forget which they were. They had military style chronographs for $700. Various other styles from $400-1000. They had a very interesting 46mm Insacore they called it for $470. That is a pretty big watch, dial looked a bit like a Panerai model I saw in a store but the Panerai is way more expensive (about 10 times). I looks like a real nice watch. Glycine is a solid Swiss brand.

One other thing about almost any brand of watch. Do not pay list price. The markup on some brands approaches 100%. I have only paid list for one watch I have bought in the last 10 years and have even always bought from authorized dealers. The one I bit the bullet on was a limited edition only available at 1 chain of stores. Not a lot of options in that case. You can save even more from gray market dealers. The discounts can be substantial. 

When I was shopping for a watch last December I went into a very large and popular watch store in New York and people were talking with customers and giving list prices on pieces and people were saying okay, sure. I waited until no other customers were around and went to a salesman and had him show me a few each from Jaeger LeCoultre, Glashutte and Blancpain. After I looked at them I asked what the real price was on the two I was most interested in. He said, oh we usualy sell at list price on these brands because they are so popular. I told him he didnt sell to me at list price and asked what he would sell them for. He pulled out a calculater punched in some numbers and knocked 20% off the top immediately. I ended up getting one of the same watches from another authorized dealer for 30% off list. Shop around, you can get a lot more watch for the same money.


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## candlestevens

I found this article helpful when I was reasearching automatic watches. I ended up going with a Sekio.


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## gunga

Hmmm. I'm interested but find no useful info in that article! I used to have several auto Seikos and a Maratac and a citizen derivative. I've since slimmed down to just one: My Seiko Spork. It's heavy but I love it.


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## nagod

ive always had good luck finding Invictas on ebay.


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## markjs

probably out of the price range of most ppl here, including myself... Been looking at mechanical Swiss watches lately.... I found a couple of gems... http://www.my-watchsite.com/villere...gator-strap-6664-3642-55b-blancpain-3149.html - stunning... Blancpain is the world's first watch company, it turns out... Watch is probably about $40,000.00 US. and then we have the classic gyrotribulon movment video:


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## Monocrom

Zombie thread! Rise from your grave ...

Well, back in 2005 I knew nothing about quality watches. Now I do. (And some things I'd like to forget.)

Seiko makes a good watch. If you want quartz, Citizen is definitely the way to go. Marathon is respected. Unfortunately County Comm lost their AD status for Marathon (not to be confused with Maratac).

If you want the lowest-priced automatics likely to last several decades and not cost an obscene amount for servicing every 5 years or so, look at the lower tiered brands belonging to the Swatch Group. Tissot in particular is an excellent value with a real history.

I'd recommend avoiding the ones that commit blatant fraud in numerous way. (Including having a made up history.)

Invicta, Swiss Legend, and Stuhrling Original get nearly zero respect among watch collectors. And I mean across the board. Not just the wealthy collectors who buy high-end watches costing as much as a nice house just for one timepiece. 

Those three brands commit numerous examples of fraud. Everything from deceptive business practices, deceptive pricing practices, to sheer lies about their horological accomplishments (which are none at all) to **** poor quality watches worth about $100 but sold at around $400, AFTER being "discounted" from $2,000. 

The best fiction I've ever watched regarding watches is on the Home Shopping Network and ShopNBC. Especially when they're hawking Invictas while gushing about the brand; and insulting real watch brands that make quality pieces.


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## cland72

wow, thanks for the in depth description monochrom. good to know who to stay away from.

from my own experience, i have owned a seiko automatic for about 7-8 years now and it's been a great watch, no complaints. about 4 months ago my wife gave me a Maratac Mid Pilot automatic from County Comm as a wedding gift, and it is on my wrist every single day, unless i'm going camping or hunting, then i throw on my g-shock.


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## Monocrom

cland72 said:


> wow, thanks for the in depth description monocrom. good to know who to stay away from.



Happy to help. It's amazing the number of guys who walk around with an Invicta and genuinely believe, because they were lied to, that the quality is just as good as an Omega or even a Rolex; but at a fraction of the cost. 



> from my own experience, i have owned a seiko automatic for about 7-8 years now and it's been a great watch, no complaints. about 4 months ago my wife gave me a Maratac Mid Pilot automatic from County Comm as a wedding gift, and it is on my wrist every single day, unless i'm going camping or hunting, then i throw on my g-shock.



Your Maratac model has Citizen's Miyota movement inside. Very reliable. Should be easy for any decent independent watchmaker to service it once every 5 -7 years or if it starts to become unreliable before then.


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## cland72

Thanks!


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## tam17

Seiko 5 with 7s26 movement is a great solution for those of us that must settle with affordable watches. As I've read on some watch-related forums and learned from local watchmakers, this movement is in production for more than 30 years (practically unchanged) and is usually compared to old-style Mercedes engines.

After a break-in period, my SNK803 runs with daily accuracy of (+) 3-4 seconds and its mov't can be tweaked - contrary to most claims.

Cheers


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## thedoc007

tam17 said:


> After a break-in period, my SNK803 runs with daily accuracy of (+) 3-4 seconds and its mov't can be tweaked - contrary to most claims.



Seriously? Your watch varies 3-4 seconds PER DAY, and you are ok with that? I know nothing about watches, and care only about toughness and accurate time, but my cheap digital watches are accurate to within substantially less than 2 minutes PER YEAR. I sync it to my atomic clock quarterly, and it has never been more than 30 seconds off in 3 months of hard use.

Is that just something you have to put up with with mechanical watches? I thought a good one was supposed to be more accurate...


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## gunga

3-4 seconds a day is quite good for an automatic. If you want hyper accuracy, an automatic is not recommended. It's about the 'soul' of the watch, a cool non- electronic device. 

I also recommend Seiko 7s26 watches. Great value automatics. Tough and reliable too.


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## thedoc007

Ok, good to know.


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## tam17

thedoc007 said:


> Your watch varies 3-4 seconds PER DAY, and you are ok with that?



Automatic watch is a piece of fine machinery, intended for people who appreciate and respect its complexity and manufacturer's craftsmanship. Comparing precision of auto watch to digital or quartz watch is comparing apples to oranges.

High-end autos must have better accuracy averages, but 7s26 movement has factory tolerances of up to 45 secs/day without being labelled as faulty (so my SNK803 example is actually very good accuracy-wise!)

Cheers


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## DrafterDan

There are plenty of good, sub-$1000 automatic watches. I prefer vintage. My daily-wear watch is the Gallet MultiChron pilot with the highly respected Valjoux 7750 automatic chronograph movement. This model is circa 1984 with the 17 jewel movement. More modern versions of this movement (which is still a popular caliber) have 25 jewels.

















For me, a mechanical watch is the only way to go. I do own a Casio solar-powered for when I'm doing yard work or similar, but it has no meaning for me. This Gallet was built almost 30 years ago, and will most certainly last many more decades. 

There are some really great finds in earlier models, late 60's 70's. I've owned a Tissot (PRS516) that worked flawlessly, I currently own a Bulova Accutron GMT that I really like, and there are many others that will meet your requirements. Have a look over at Watch U Seek, in their "for sale" section. 
~D


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## Monocrom

thedoc007 said:


> Seriously? Your watch varies 3-4 seconds PER DAY, and you are ok with that? I know nothing about watches, and care only about toughness and accurate time, but my cheap digital watches are accurate to within substantially less than 2 minutes PER YEAR. I sync it to my atomic clock quarterly, and it has never been more than 30 seconds off in 3 months of hard use.
> 
> Is that just something you have to put up with with mechanical watches? I thought a good one was supposed to be more accurate...



Nope! The most expensive mechanical / automatic watch built to COSC standards (that in and of itself commands a huge premium) is not going to be as accurate as the cheapest digital watch that you can find in the Supermarket. About $5 -$10 dollars or so. Honestly, 3-4 seconds fast a day is absolutely fantastic for a mechanical watch. Here's an example of what I mean:

You hire a guy to do 10 things. He does 4 of them, and fails miserably at the other 6. Would you be upset? Would you be angry? ... Okay, now imagine if you're the manager of a baseball team. And that one guy is one of your players. He's batting .400 ... _Now_ would you be upset? Of course not. You'd hope and pray your other players could hit the ball *that* well. That they were successful 4 out of 10 times they walked up to the plate. Same thing with mechanical watches.

COSC certification commands a huge premium. Basically it's just a guarantee that your watch won't be faster than 7 seconds a day or run slower than 4 seconds a day. Maybe it'll be better, but you get a guarantee it won't be worse. There are other issues that mechanical watches suffer from that quartz timepieces don't. 

If you want durability, well; that's one thing that paying a large premium for a mechanical watch doesn't get you. In fact, mechanical watches that cost as much as a nice house are actually a bit fragile. You don't get an increase in accuracy, compared to a quartz watch. You don't get increased durability, compared to quartz. If you change the date on a mechanical watch between 8pm - 4am, you'll folk up the mechanism inside your watch. Unless your mechanical watch is specifically anti-magnetic, be careful not to put your watch too close to your cellphone; or it'll lose several minutes a day instead of a few seconds because it'll become magnetized. Then you have to visit a watchmaker to get him to de-magnetize it for you if you want it to work properly again. Oh yeah, they need servicing once every 5 years (or sooner if it develops accuracy issues). With most quartz watches, you just change the battery about once every 2-3 years. Heck, all you need is a case-opening tool and a new battery; you could do that yourself! I have! Not that hard.

With a good mechanical watch, what do you get as advantages? ... No dead battery in the middle of the day. You get a time-proven mechanism that will far outlive a comparable quartz watch. But honestly that depends on the movement inside. If it's a common one such as an ETA 2824-2, your mechanical watch with just a bit of care and routine maintenance can literally last a Lifetime. Decades upon decades. If you take care of it and so do your off-spring, your Grand-children can enjoy wearing your watch as adults, long after you've left this miserable world for a better place. 

You also don't have to worry about a dead battery in your watch. 

But honestly if it's just about pragmatic considerations, don't bother with a mechanical watch. Honestly, I like holding up an automatic watch to my ear after shaking it a bit ... and listening to its little "heart" beating. They harken back to a time when Man ruled the world with little or no dependence on electronic anything. The world has become horribly addicted to electricity. We have items that don't need to function on electricity. Can-openers (my main one is an old P-51), shavers (all they do is massage my face), even electronic back-scratchers. Back-scratchers! I mean come on! ... Who honestly can't raise their arm above their head, and then repeatedly bend at the elbow in a vigorous and repetitive manner for a few seconds while using a non-electric back-scratcher? Or ... Do what I do, take your shirt off in front of a loved one and have her use her nails to scratch your back. Get your girlfriend, your wife, heck; even your older daughter to get rid of that itch you can't reach. 

As good as quartz watches are, they're just utilitarian compared to a nice mechanical / automatic. Barely different than your frying pan, or your favorite mug, and likely below your favorite shirt or jacket. Leave a quartz watch in a drawer for years or decades at a time, it'll be dead. Possibly, battery leaked on the inside years ago and there's zero chance of salvaging it. Do the same with a mechanical, and after decades all you'll need to do is wind it up (or give it a few shakes if it's an automatic) and watch as it comes back to Life! Hell, much of the time it's still going to do a decent job at accuracy. Not a perfect one or a near-perfect one. but decent. Unless you have a job where pin-point accuracy is an absolute MUST, a few seconds of variation is perfectly fine. At one time if you had a job, it was just understood that you always showed up 10 minutes early to settle down at your desk or work-station. And part of the reason why you showed up early is if your watch was a tiny bit off, then it wouldn't matter.


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## Flying Turtle

Interesting that this thread should pop up again just a day after I ordered a Seiko 5 (SNK607). My Casio has become somewhat glitchy recently, so that's my excuse for needing a new watch. A few years back (I'm sure I probably posted about it) I went through a few cheap Vostoks that were a nice change, but died young. It now time for a decent automatic. After scrutinizing the available Seikos on a number of sites I ended up going with Jomashop, but Amazon was a close second. Just wish it would get here quick, of course.

Geoff


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## Monocrom

Flying Turtle said:


> Interesting that this thread should pop up again just a day after I ordered a Seiko 5 (SNK607). My Casio has become somewhat glitchy recently, so that's my excuse for needing a new watch. A few years back (I'm sure I probably posted about it) I went through a few cheap Vostoks that were a nice change, but died young. It now time for a decent automatic. After scrutinizing the available Seikos on a number of sites I ended up going with Jomashop, but Amazon was a close second. Just wish it would get here quick, of course.
> 
> Geoff



Excellent grey market dealer that only deals in legit watches. But Jomashop has a rather poor reputation for customer service if things go wrong. Hope everything goes well for you.


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## thedoc007

Thanks for the additional info guys, particularly Monocrom, great write-up. I was just wrong about them being more accurate, pure and simple.

And yes, I use the watch purely as a tool, mainly for my job, which does require great accuracy to ensure I get the proper scans done at the proper time. For my situation, a cheap quartz watch makes more sense.

With that said, I can appreciate a fine quality instrument, and I'm not trying to take anything away from you guys. If I had more money, I'd probably try one out, and I might become a fan too. But for now, I'll exit and leave you guys to it...at least I learned something today!


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## Flying Turtle

Monocrom said:


> Excellent grey market dealer that only deals in legit watches. But Jomashop has a rather poor reputation for customer service if things go wrong. Hope everything goes well for you.



Thanks for the info, Monocrom. Now I'm a bit concerned since I haven't yet received any tracking data. If Jomashop hadn't offered $10 off for clicking on "Like" I'd have gone with Amazon. Well, if things go south I'm only out fifty bucks, but I think all will be fine.

Geoff


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## Monocrom

Happy to help. Yeah, sometimes Jomashop can be a bit frustrating. Collectors who use it tend to buy luxury watches from higher-end brands (in terms of price only that is) which they feel are way over-priced even if you get a sweet deal from an Authorized Dealer. For more reasonably-priced brands, I can whole-heartedly recommend LongIslandWatch.com

Best way to describe L.I.W.'s reputation would be the watch version of Lighthound.com :twothumbs


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## Flying Turtle

Next time, probably no time soon, I'll check LongIslandWatch. Thanks, again. Went to the Jomashop site and discovered they're taking a religious holiday until Monday, so I guess that's why I haven't gotten that tracking info.

Geoff


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## Flying Turtle

Got my Seiko today! Very pleased with it so far. Everything's working. Can't really tell about its accuracy yet, but after six hours it's at least holding steady and not flying or crawling. I do need to take out one or two links in the band. Might just take it to a jeweler, so I don't scratch it up. Here's how she looks.





Geoff


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## Monocrom

Looks nice.


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## yifu

Good choice for a first mechanical watch, a Seiko 5 was my first mechanical and it's still working fine after 6 years but you need to realise that a 7S26 movement does have its limitations that higher end calibres don't, being one of the cheapest non Chinese made (most are assembled in Japan, with some in Thailand or Singapore) movements around that is to be expected.

*-*It's non-hacking, which can be a big deal if you want to set time exactly. You can back hack with it (winding the minute hand back will stop the second hand) but it only works when the mainspring is at a low tension.

*-*Beat rate is 21,600bph, nothing wrong with it, as many great watches are at this beat rate (or lower) but the downside is a choppier second hand movement, less accuracy and you will find that during vigorous exercise involving lots of hand swinging the watch will speed up substantially until you stop exercising. This is due to your arm motion harmonically matching (or close to)that of the balance wheel (6Hz), which is harder to do with 8Hz and up movements.

-Most of the lower end Seikos 7S26 included have terribly low amplitudes (pallet fork), you don't have to understand what that means exactly but this is believed to be Seiko's way of increasing reliability by reducing wear between the pallet fork and wheel. This however comes at a price, reduced accuracy and reduced isochronism; i.e. as the mainspring winds down the watch will speed up (normally), and the accuracy will vary greatly between resting positions. Again this is present on all the 'lower end' Seiko caibres, 4R, 6R, 7S etc.

-The bi-directional winding system that Seiko uses, known as the Magic Lever is seen by most watchmakers as ingenious and yet crude, the racheting system is basically the main source of wear in an otherwise reliable movement i.e. if theres a problem with a 7S26 not winding up its probably the Magic Lever (or a broken mainspring). Its Swiss counterparts and other uni directional don't have this problem.

-Although the auto winder (semicircle weight) has ball bearings, something which its Miyota and Orient competitors lack, it has a bigger dead angle so auto winder has to move quite a distance before the mainspring is wound up by any amount. This contributes to lesser winding efficiency compared to many other movements although this is not a problem at all in actual use, just a bug.

-The downfall of all entry level Japanese movements- the regulator lever. That thing is soooo sensitive that even a small twitch in the lever can speed up or slow down by minutes a day, a big pain even for experienced watchmakers to regulate. Higher end Japanese movements and practically all Swiss movements have micro adjuster screws which make regulating a watch much easier.

There are many other smaller 'idiosyncrasies' in the 7S26 such as over oiling by factory robots, poorer temperature/magnetic resistance in the balance spring etc. The point i'm trying to make is that a lot people get a Seiko 5/monster etc with a 7S26 and act/pretend that it is the be all end all movement that beats all other movements costing many times more - it just doesn't. It is nonetheless a good foray into the world of automatic watches and should serve you for a very time as many 40+ year old Seiko 7009s have (7S26's daddy), provided you can accept its flaws.

Oh and those who question the value of automatic/mechanical watches when a $20 quartz keeps similar or better time than 100 grand Patek Philippes need to realize that in this digital/electronic age where people are surrounded by nothing but electronics which have made their way into our cars, trains, phones, ipods, TVs, fridges, computers, a mechanical watch transcends its purpose as a timekeeper, it becomes a piece of mechanical art. Unlike a quartz watch that doesn't need or care about you (other than a battery change every 3ish years), an automatic watch depends on you for sustenance, its a symbiotic mechanical puzzle, a mini gearbox that lives off you everywhere you go and its tiny heart will beat a few BILLION times before requiring any service. It has its own individual character, such as speeding up/slowing down slightly in different positions and pleases the human soul, in the same way that a work of art or song does and yet it does its timekeeping function well enough to get through out daily lives without having to set it everyday. Why then would anyone want another piece of cheap, dull and uninteresting electronic PCB strapped to their wrist?

Sorry about the rant but my watch interests predate my flashlight ones and it is saddening to see so few people wear or even know about mechanical watches these days. Some people i've talked don't even know what mechanical watches are... Luckily there are many many watch enthusiasts and a lot of CPFers have interests in watches ( and last i checked, in terms of value, Swiss mechanical watch exports match that of quartz ones (they just cost 11 times more on average thou  ) With that said i do have quartz watches and one of my most frequently used is a G-Shock Solar/Atomic Riseman. The idea of having a tough, relatively cheap beater on which i never have to set the time or change battery on is alluring, especially when its a day where i can't bear up my mechanicals.


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## BuzzLight

I agree with what others have commented on. Automatic Seiko's are excellent watches especially that of the Diver's series. They are tough, reliable, and dependable. 

If you want something a little more high-end go for an Omega Seamaster.

The new releases of Casio G-Shock watches are also worth a look. These things are built like tanks! Personally I like the Aviation Series... 

http://www.gshock.com/resource/html/Aviation_Collection.html

I hope you find a watch that truly fits your needs 

Regards,

BuzzLight


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## Pellidon

My two current watches are an automatic Orient Mako with an orange dial and a blue Vostok Amphibia automatic Russian Diver watch. The next is a cheap Fineat Omega homage watch (styled as an Omega, not a knock off) that is automatic. I have a couple of quartz watches I also throw in from time to time. I like the mechanical watches because every electrical watch I have owned has expired after one or two battery changes. At worst a mechanical will need a clean and adjust by competent hands (not mine) from time to time.


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## N8N

SJACKAL said:


> Sure! Try the Seiko 007s, big and manly, looks expensive, but actually affordable, dive rated to 200 meters running on Seiko's 7S26 automatic movement, known for its hardiness. If stock configuration doesn't appeals to you, then go for the MKII customisation, which could made them real military and tactical with stuff like bead blasting and dome crystals to reduce reflections. You probably spend less than a quarter of what the Marathon cost for a stock Seiko SKX007, and less than half the price of the Marathon for a customised one from Bill Yao. Link below.
> 
> www.mkiiwatches.com
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Edited and added a picture of the Seiko SKX007 in stock configuration:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Picture is not mine, should be belonging to pmwf.com
> I like the watch very much and I have one too.



yup, I'm currently wearing a Marathon GSAR right now, but until I busted it, I actually preferred a Seiko SKX009 (same as 007 but with "pepsi" bezel.) Wore it on a Maratac mil-NATO strap, seiko bracelets suck. You can get a nicer bracelet for it (William Jean) but the strap is just right.

Seiko - good lume, but not as good as Tritium (Marathon)
can't hack the Seiko (well, you can back-hack it, but it's not a hacking movement)
the threads on the screw down crown aren't as nice feeling as the ones on the Marathon

umm... that's about all the major functional differences I can think of. Seiko is a hell of a deal in the watch world, honestly.

Edit: I should probably state how I busted it. Apparently when you drop a motorcycle on yourself and land on your watch, that exceeds the design parameters of said watch. Really not Seiko's fault. The case still looks good so one of these days I might get a new movement for it (they're inexpensive, probably less expensive than paying a watchmaker to open the case to look at it.)


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## N8N

Pellidon said:


> My two current watches are an automatic Orient Mako with an orange dial and a blue Vostok Amphibia automatic Russian Diver watch. The next is a cheap Fineat Omega homage watch (styled as an Omega, not a knock off) that is automatic. I have a couple of quartz watches I also throw in from time to time. I like the mechanical watches because every electrical watch I have owned has expired after one or two battery changes. At worst a mechanical will need a clean and adjust by competent hands (not mine) from time to time.



Ah yes the Amphibia! I have one of those too, mine has the "Ministry" case. Love that little thing, the case design is so elegant. Too bad the lume sucks and the bezel is a joke. But it is a great example of Russian engineering. Reminds me of the old story of the space pen and the Russians using pencils.


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## Flying Turtle

I understand all the reasons why Swiss watches are the best, or Mercedes, or certain flashlights. It's just that I'm basically a cheap old coot, that first and foremost looks for the most bang for the buck, and I'm not likely to change. My parents, rest in peace, were this way and I didn't fall far from the tree.

Back to my fine new Seiko, after eighteen hours it's still ticking perfectly, and I managed to take out a couple links without tearing it up. Couldn't be more pleased. When I win the lottery I'll consider an upgrade.

Geoff


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## DrafterDan

That's exactly why a watch is a very personal thing. Some love them, some don't give a hoot, and most are somewhere in between.
Personally, I don't feel right unless I have a watch on, whether it be one of the many in my Gallet collection, or my tough Deep Blue T100 or my Citizen solar that I do yard work in.


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## thedoc007

yifu said:


> Oh and those who question the value of automatic/mechanical watches when a $20 quartz keeps similar or better time than 100 grand Patek Philippes need to realize that in this digital/electronic age where people are surrounded by nothing but electronics which have made their way into our cars, trains, phones, ipods, TVs, fridges, computers, a mechanical watch transcends its purpose as a timekeeper, it becomes a piece of mechanical art. Unlike a quartz watch that doesn't need or care about you (other than a battery change every 3ish years), an automatic watch depends on you for sustenance, its a symbiotic mechanical puzzle, a mini gearbox that lives off you everywhere you go and its tiny heart will beat a few BILLION times before requiring any service. It has its own individual character, such as speeding up/slowing down slightly in different positions and pleases the human soul, in the same way that a work of art or song does and yet it does its timekeeping function well enough to get through out daily lives without having to set it everyday. Why then would anyone want another piece of cheap, dull and uninteresting electronic PCB strapped to their wrist?



Since I was the one who brought up cheap digital watches, I can only assume this was directed at my comments. As I said, I do appreciate the quality and craftsmanship of a mechanical watch. I simply did not know they were less accurate until recently. With that said, I think your rant is just that. For you, a good mechanical watch makes sense. But for me, it does not. I do not have enough extra money lying around that I am willing to drop several hundred dollars on a watch. And as I said before, accurate timekeeping and toughness are my priorities, neither of which would be improved by going to mechanical watches. To each his own! I don't think that you are wasting your money, by any means. If I had more of it, I would want a nice watch too...but it is a matter of priorities. Form is far less important to me than function. I don't see why you should criticize quartz watches for doing a job well.


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## cland72

If the zombies rose this afternoon, I'd slap on my Casio G-shock w/ tough atomic solar.

But in day to day, the Maratac Mid Pilot I wear seems... classier.


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## Monocrom

Flying Turtle said:


> I understand all the reasons why Swiss watches are the best, or Mercedes, or certain flashlights.



Actually, the Swiss government has turned the words "Swiss-Made" on the dials of many watches into meaningless crap designed to now be a marketing gimmick. Didn't used to be that way. Isn't that way with all brands that have those words on their dials. But with the vast majority of them, I'd even go so far as to say MOST of them; it's just B.S. (And honestly, I hate using the word "most" since the vast majority of the time it's used in a descriptive way, it's misleading and just plain false. But I know so much about how the Swiss watch industry works that in this case, it's 100% appropriate to say "most.")

In that nation, they have the 51% Rule. Meaning, if 51% of a watch is assembled in Switzerland, it _legally_ meets the definition of a Swiss Made watch. Therefore, the company or brand behind the watch can put the words "Swiss Made" on the dial of the watch. Enthusiasts and collectors know better. But the general public does not. They see those two words on a watch dial, and they just assume they're getting a quality watch that is actually *made* in Switzerland instead of just something often containing parts shipped in from China, and used in the construction of many well-known, traditional, Swiss brands. 

Truth is, other than Rolex, which is the top of the luxury watch tier and recognized High-End brands (the tier above "Luxury" where watches easily command five-figure and six-figure price-tags) when you see the words "Swiss-Made" on any watch dial; expect quite a few Made in China parts to be inside of it. Among watch enthusiasts and collectors, it's the worse kept secret in the watch industry. The Swiss government is actually currently considering upping that standard to 61% instead of the current 51%. Quite frankly, still pathetic. And that view is shared by many who enjoy quality timepieces and want "Swiss-Made" to actually once again stand for something meaningful. 

The ridiculous 51% rule also causes other issues that past generations of enthusiasts and collectors simply did not have to deal with. Best illustration of what I mean would be Tissot's very popular current Visodate model. Recently, a member of Watchuseek.com asked about a possible fake one he had stumbled across. It was practically flawless. But something just seemed a bit off. Turns out the lettering on the Day and Date complications was too rough. A very minor thing. Easily missed by the general public, and even the average watch enthusiast. Turns out there was good reason why it was an excellent fake. Its case was the very same one Tissot uses in the real thing. 

Rather simple to figure out what happened. Someone at the plant that Tissot outsources its Visodate cases from, either made a backroom deal with the con-man; or perhaps it was a worker who snatched a few cases. It's that type of crap that likely explains Tissot rather odd policy of, _"If you buy a Tissot online, it's fake and won't be covered under warranty."_

Tissot is likely fully aware that such things take place at factories outside their reach. And not just with Visodate cases. Other models, other parts. But not much choice when your brand is known for a rich history, beautifully timepieces, _*and *_very low prices for entry into the Tissot family of owners. Truth is though, I still like Tissot. It's one of my favorite brands despite what goes on with it and the watch industry as a whole. Not just the Swiss watch industry. (German-made watches are a bit better. Though honestly, not by a whole helluva lot.) Though I likely wouldn't like Tissot nearly as much if they were the lone brand pulling the type of B.S. found across the watch industry with so many other brands. 

No denying that Tissot makes and always had made beautiful timepieces. No denying the brand's rich history, and (unlike some other brands) a real history. Not some made up garbage like a handful of brands spew out. Honestly, I'm seriously looking at buying a Visodate myself. The white dial / S.S. case version in particular has a classic elegance about it. Especially on a nice rich, leather, strap ... It just should not be that easy to produce a great fake. The con-men, rip-off artists, and scumbags simply should not have it that easy. Should not be able to get their hands on real cases to use in cheating decent folks out of their hard-earned money. In this day & age though, they do. That's the way it is. Didn't use to be that way. Not even remotely. 

The Visodate is just one example. The majority of parts out of China are used inside of the cases. And yes, sometimes it's the very same parts that the con-men AND the actual watch brands both use. Once again, just should not be that way ...

Getting into watches isn't like getting into lights. It can be genuinely sickening. You learn quickly how to deal with the snobbery from, ironically, both ends of the spectrum. You learn to deal with the mass pretentiousness. The frequent and huge price hikes with rather small improvements (or usually no improvements) to watches about once a year or every 6 months, from the various so-called luxury brands. You even learn to deal with the otherwise intelligent and rational but blindly devoted brand-loyalist fan-boys who spew venom at you for committing the unforgivable sin of making a true and minor criticism of their favorite brand. (Seriously, Jim Jones would be freaking jealous of ANY watch brand out there.)

What you don't get used to is the crap I described earlier above. Little more than industry-wide fraud that no one really wants to discuss. No, you don't get used to that ... 

BTW, if you have any mechanical / automatic watch that is consistently losing minutes every day instead of just seconds, it means your watch is magnetized and should be taken to an independent watchmaker to get de-magnetized. Magnetization is an issue that quartz watches don't suffer from.


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## Flying Turtle

After a week with my new Seiko 5 I'm still very pleased. I'm seeing about a 2 sec./day loss on average. Still playing with the off-wrist nighttime orientation to possibly gain back those seconds. 

Geoff


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## CaptainRogersUK

invicta tritium
deep blue tritium


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## Monocrom

CaptainRogersUK said:


> invicta tritium



Even with the massive discounts usually offered, still ridiculously overpriced for what you get.


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## OldGreyDog

I have an old (c1973) Tudor Oyster automatic... Nice classic and timeless design, mechanical movement (no batteries of course). Keeps quite good time, but not like quartz/battery of course. Waterproof for swimming, in the sea too, and the only downside is that it needs servicing every few years (unfortunately not so cheap)! For every day wear when There is risk of getting a watch bashed about, a Citizen Eco Drive (for all practical purposes an automatic) fits the bill perfectly.....


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## lightcycle1

I love a good automatic watch......have a couple. Not the ones I REALLY want but maybe someday....



Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2


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## Monocrom

OldGreyDog said:


> For every day wear when There is risk of getting a watch bashed about, a Citizen Eco Drive (for all practical purposes an automatic) fits the bill perfectly.....



As an Eco-Drive owner, although I love the technology behind their design; I hate the BS manner in which Citizen promotes it.

Eco-Drive is solar-powered, rechargeable quartz battery technology. Basically, quartz. However, without the frequent battery changes that a quartz watch requires once every 3 years or so. Plenty of individuals with Eco-Drive watches going 10 - 12 years on the original solar-powered rechargeable battery inside. 

Also, yes; despite what Citizen claims, you WILL need to replace that battery. Often at about the 10 year mark. Main issue is unless you buy the special solar-powered rechargeable battery off of eBay, you have to send your watch to Japan to get it serviced and have a new battery put in. Think of Eco-Drive as all the advantages of a quartz watch, without the main disadvantage of a battery dying on you in the middle of your day. (I've experienced that twice in the last 3 years with traditional quartz watches.)


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## thedoc007

I stumbled onto this video, purely by accident:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhdgHGciVYc

"The Secret Life of Machines: Quartz Watch"

It also covers mechanical watches, to some degree. I found it interesting, anyway, hopefully some of you guys will feel the same.


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