# Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary



## CampingMaster (Jan 3, 2012)

This thread is to inform the flashaholic community of a dangerous incident related to primary CR123A. This is not at all to talk against the manufacturer of the battery that was used. The manufacturer will be informed in the next few days; I will send him all the pieces and if he does'nt need them to replace the flashlight and batteries I will give them to the Montreal Fire Dept. for analysis.

I hope this very dangerous case of explosion which happened to one of my best friends will, in the future, serve for correction for the use of less dangerous batteries.

Fortunately, my friend and his wife were not injured; it happened in a very small appartment: pieces of batteries and flashlight were flying around and caught fire in two different places i.e., a carpet and on the floor, 15 feet away from the location where the flashlight actually made a first bang noise like a rifle.

Please take note that my mother tongue is French, so I will try to explain what happened as best I can with the few words I know in English, but exceptionnally this first post has been verified and corrected.

I bought from 4Sevens as many as 35 flashlights, mostly Regular Quark 123² XP-G R5 and Turbo X XM-L T6, for as many as 25 different friends, many of them Native Atikamekw from Manawan QC.

As you see my love for the 4Sevens Quark flashlights is contagious.

I hope nothing will happen to them in the future.

It happened two weeks ago, and I did go to my friend's house yesterday to pick up all the pieces and have his version (I asked him to prepare a report of what happened to be sent to 4Sevens and also inform the CPF forum users of what happened exactly - he and his wife are perfectly bilingual).

I was very surprised when he showed me his RCR123A battery charger with all the four batteries that come with it... (Since SE-H001).

He showed me also all the ten batteries that I bought for him (4Sevens batteries).

To my great astonishment the batteries inside his Regular Quark 123² XP-G R5 were the original primary 4Sevens CR123A included with the flashlight...

When the incident happened, he was using his flashlight right beside his head to look behind a wall-mounted LCD television when the flashlight made a "bang" noise, like a rifle. After the flashlight was on the floor, another "bang" noise was heard and he had to extinguish not one but two fires, the flame from the fire on the floor being ten inches long.

Looking through my notes, I found out that my friend Claude has his Regular Quark flashlight for one year now i.e. since November 15, 2010.

This incident makes me wonder if is it dangerous to keep the same batteries (Primary CR123A) for 13 months in a flashlight. (They were still good at giving light).

As you will see from the pictures below, the batteries are both completely empty, the flashlight switch is intact, and the flashlight broke in two parts.

Is it dangerous for this couple to have these two batteries emptied in their small appartment ?

Is it recommanded that he contact his doctor because they inhaled Lithium and chemical products ?

Does he has to clean up the appartment by professionnals ?

Does the manufacturer has insurance to pay the dammages on the floor and the carpet ?

For sure the flashlight and batteries will be replaced.





[/IMG]




[/IMG]
You can see all the remaining pieces/fragments. There is no more glass and LED.




[/IMG]
Sad to see a so nice flashlight destroyed but happily no body was hurt.




[/IMG]
Dammaged on the floor from lower left of the picture to the refrigerator.




[/IMG]
Zoom on the dammaged floor. While his wife was yelling at him « FIRE FIRE FIRE » he was busy to extinguish the other fire on the carpet ten feet away.

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## Lou Minescence (Jan 3, 2012)

Glad to hear no one was injured. No warning of danger ? No heat ? That worries me.


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## Sunburst (Jan 3, 2012)

Thanks for posting. Glad no one was hurt. That's not the first time I've heard of two CR123s exploding or burning up. I think a voltage difference between the two cells can trigger it. Advice I've heard was to only use topnotch U.S.-made CR123s, or one 18650 single cell, if the flashlight was made to accomodate it. 

But how immune are top U.S.-made CR123s to this problem? Should we only use Surefires? I'm also using EverReady CR123s but would appreciate advice.

I even had two cheap Radio Shack AAA cells once explode on me. 

I'm beginning to wonder how wise it is to stack any two CR123s one on top of the other for powering a flashlight.


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 4, 2012)

~

ALL Multi-cell lights must be used with knowledge and the proper precautions .


Kinda like race cars ... 3 new tires + 1 bald tire = Something BAD's gonna happen !

( They ALL have to wear evenly and equally. )

~


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## Quiksilver (Jan 4, 2012)

Thats why I don't buy CR123-based lights for others. 

All given lights are either AA or AAA.


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 4, 2012)

~

Lights that use exotic (unfamiliar) cells are safer to use in single-cell lights.

~


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## csshih (Jan 4, 2012)

Symptoms from HF poisoning show up fairly late - since it was a small apartment I'd look into that..

Link(summary) http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Reference-to-the-Roar-of-the-Pelican-thread.

Link(actual thread where incidence happened): http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?120888-ROAR-of-the-Pelican-(CR123-Explosion-during-use-firsthand-account)

story short, yes, you can get sick from fumes from a battery -I'd tell my doctor *just in case*

Craig


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## snakyjake (Jan 4, 2012)

From the post something is not clear to me. It was mentioned "RCR123A battery charger" and "original primary 4Sevens CR123A". I can't help but wonder if the CR123A's were being recharged.

I thought the only battery chemistry danger of explosions is lithium-ion (rechargeables). Unless the non-rechargeable batteries (primaries) are serious damaged by attempts of recharging.

I think batteries don't need to be disposed of before 13 months. Most batteries have 10 year shelf life. Or what about all those lithium batteries in fire/smoke detectors?


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## notrefined (Jan 4, 2012)

safety or danger is a matter of perspective, but additional complexity invariably increases risk. a single cell of most common battery chemistries will be capable of venting (some with flame), so there is risk with anything. greater energy density increases risk, more than one cell increases risk, and rechargable chemistries increase risk (mainly because multiple operations to perform means more opportunities for user error). but if you look hard enough, you will even find reports of flashlights with even single AAA alkaline cells venting explosively.


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 4, 2012)

snakyjake said:


> From the post something is not clear to me. It was mentioned "RCR123A battery charger" and "original primary 4Sevens CR123A". I can't help but wonder if the CR123A's were being recharged.
> 
> I thought the only battery chemistry danger of explosions is lithium-ion (rechargeables). Unless the non-rechargeable batteries (primaries) are serious damaged by attempts of recharging.
> 
> I think batteries don't need to be disposed of before 13 months. Most batteries have 10 year shelf life. Or what about all those lithium batteries in fire/smoke detectors?





Uhmmm ..... He stated this :

" When the incident happened, he was using his flashlight right beside his head to look behind a wall-mounted LCD television when the flashlight made a "bang" noise, like a rifle. After the flashlight was on the floor, another "bang" noise was heard and he had to extinguish not one but two fires, the flame from the fire on the floor being ten inches long."

~


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## ElectronGuru (Jan 4, 2012)

snakyjake said:


> I thought the only battery chemistry danger of explosions is lithium-ion (rechargeables).



Collective CPF experience/wisdom says "use only sanyo produced CR123's, especially in multi cell setups". 

This is achieved by avoiding CR123's made anywhere besides Japan (sanyo) and USA (sanyo).

This rule was largely ignored when the cells above were introduced.


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## Machete God (Jan 4, 2012)

I can't comment on the rest of what you said, but this: 



ElectronGuru said:


> ... CR123's made anywhere besides Japan (sanyo) and USA (sanyo)...


Sanyo? I always thought US-made CR123As were produced by Panasonic USA.


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## Launch Mini (Jan 4, 2012)

I think he was getting at, possibly the fellow tried to recharge a primary battery. The charging damaged the cell, then when drain was placed on it POOF


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## ElectronGuru (Jan 4, 2012)

Machete God said:


> Sanyo? I always thought US-made CR123As were produced by Panasonic USA.



Yes, sorry for the confusion. Sanyo is a subsidiary of Panasonic.


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 4, 2012)

~

He also stated : ( I quote)

" This incident makes me wonder if is it dangerous to keep the same batteries (Primary CR123A) for 13 months in a flashlight. (They were still good at giving light). "



Yes , 13 months is a long time without testing , and can allow the two cells to become un-balanced . One cell usually drains more than the other in use .

For emergency use - I prefer single cell lights - which avoid this problem .

~


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## LEDAdd1ct (Jan 4, 2012)

_Was_ he recharging primaries?


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## Lou Minescence (Jan 4, 2012)

We should wait for camping master to explain more about the incident. The mention about the rechargeables is confusing, but he also mentioned English is not his first language and that may be where the confusion comes from.


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## Burgess (Jan 4, 2012)

Awaiting further details.


Glad nobody was injured by the explosion / fire.


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## CampingMaster (Jan 4, 2012)

_Glad to here no one was injured. No warning of danger ? No heat ? That worries me._

Very good and pertinent question « No warning of danger ? » this question is so important that I sent an email to my friend and as soon I will get his explanations I will post it. Thank you Lou Minescence for that very good remark.

_I think a voltage difference between the two cells can trigger it._

This is what I said to my friend but the two originals batteries included with the flashlight are sealed together and my friend has no voltmeter and he is not a flashaholic. I gave him a voltmeter as a gift when I saw him at his place for taking pictures of the dammages. Thank you Sunburst for your interesting post.
　

　
_From the post something is not clear to me. It was mentioned "RCR123A battery charger" and "original primary 4Sevens CR123A". I can't help but wonder if the CR123A's were being recharged._

When I say : «I was very surprised when he showed me his RCR123A battery charger with all the four batteries that come with it... (Since SE-H001). »
 That means I was surprised he never used his rechargeable batteries, I was sure that the explosion was with his rechargeable batteries not the primary coming with the flashlight. No, snakyjake my friend never charged primary batteries, it is impossible to do that because the plain blue rechargeable batteries that come with the charger are completely different from the 4Sevens batteries on which it is written in red and capitals letters DO NOT RECHARGE and also the primary 4Sevens batteries comes by pair sealed together, you have to unwrap them to put them in a charger which is a no nonsense.

_« I think batteries don't need to be disposed of before 13 months. Most batteries have 10 year shelf life. Or what about all those lithium batteries in fire/smoke detectors? »
_ 
Your comment snakyjake is very appropriate.

_Launch Mini said : I think he was getting at, possibly the fellow tried to recharge a primary battery. The charging damaged the cell, then when drain was placed on it POOF _

You should read carefully and slowly, in my post there is nothing mentionning that possibility.

_Yes , 13 months is a long time without testing , and can allow the two cells to become un-balanced . One cell usually drains more than the other in use ._

Thank you TooManyGizmos.

　
_LEDAdd1ct said : Was he recharging primaries? _

In my post there is nothing mentionning that possibility.

_LouMinescence said : The mention about the rechargeables is confusing, but he also mentioned English is not his first language and that may be where the confusion comes from. _

I am sorry for the confusion. I was mentionning his charger because I was surprised to see all the four batteries that come with it, I was sure the explosion was with rechargeable batteries and I was expecting seeing two rechargeable batteries left.


Thank you everybody for all your comments.

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## CampingMaster (Jan 4, 2012)

More pictures :




[/IMG]




[/IMG]
I took these pictures to give everybody as much details as possible of the dammages to the flashlight that broke in half.

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## Fulaeetoy (Jan 4, 2012)

Good thing everyone is ok. That damage is pretty wicked. 

________________________________
~ Sent from iOS/Android device


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## snakyjake (Jan 5, 2012)

It was the blue rechargeable batteries that exploded? If yes.... Then this is making sense, as two primaries shouldn't be much risk if used normally. The two rechargeables probably didn't have protection. Probably made cheap and not from a reputable company. Two lithium-ion batteries connected together is EXTREMELY risky (unless you monitor your batteries). Over discharge/charge of lithium-ion batteries are guaranteed to cause cell damage.


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## GunnarGG (Jan 5, 2012)

snakyjake said:


> It was the blue rechargeable batteries that exploded?



No. As I understand it the guy had a charger and some blue rechargeable cells at home but in the flashlight there were a pair of 4Sevens primary CR123 batteries.
Looking at the third pic in the first post it also looks like a 4Sevens primary CR123.
These are wrapped together 2 in a row so you can just slide them in as a pack.
I have seen other brands claiming that packs like these contains batteries from the same batch and therefor should be matched to work together. I don't know if that goes for 4sevens also.
Even if it is easy to use these packs maybe it's better to unwrap them and test each battery before use?




TooManyGizmos said:


> Yes , 13 months is a long time without testing , and can allow the two cells to become un-balanced . One cell usually drains more than the other in use .
> 
> For emergency use - I prefer single cell lights - which avoid this problem .




I have, and I think many other also have, a light in the car with 2xcr123 cells that gets very little use. The batteries can last for a year or two.
If the cells are checked and balanced when I put them (new) in the light maybe it's wise to measure them once in a while to make sure they keep there balance?
Is there any difference between using a flashlight for lets say 60 min during a week versus 5 min a month during a year?
Maybe it's good to check the balance even during more intense use?
After reading other threads also now I will not drain the batteries completely in 2-cell lights.
When I get the first sign of the batteries getting weak I will replace them and finish the old one in a 1-cell light.


I have a multimeter but today I'm ordering a ZTS battery tester.


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## ecrbattery (Jan 5, 2012)

Wow, glad everyone is OK. The damage is bad but it could have been a lot worse.

The light maybe 13 months old but the batteries could be a lot older than that.
Are these 2x CR123A have date stamp on them? Not sure if you could read them now after the fire.

You got to love how some vendor claim "matching" battery set without detailing how the matching was done. Do they actually measure the voltage and internal resistance or just _assume_ that the batteries are matched because they came from the same batch?

From my experience, the batteries IR does vary even when they are from the same batch. Even two perfectly matched cells will become unbalance from the heat generated by the light. You should check the batteries voltage once in a while. It is also a good ideal to mark and rotate the cells position. This need to be done often if you run your high-power light continuously. All this is hard to do when both cells are in a "matching" wrap 


Base on another member's previous "Scary problem with 4Sevens CR123", here is my theory on what happen:

The cell that sat closest to the head got empty first because of the heat. When the light keep on pulling current through the second cell, it reverse charged the empty cell. The empty cell heated up and vented some flamable gas directly into the warm/hot pill. When the light got really hot, the gas ignited. Now the second cell also got heat up very quickly and join the firery party.


I hope everyone stay safe and check the battery in your multi-cell light often. If the cell read a negative voltage, chuck it and run the other way  I really wish "NewBie" would come out of retirement and do some more dissecting of all these new CR123A cells.


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## CampingMaster (Jan 5, 2012)

I would like to thank GunnarGG for his post.


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## jonnyfgroove (Jan 5, 2012)

snakyjake said:


> It was the blue rechargeable batteries that exploded? If yes.... Then this is making sense, as two primaries shouldn't be much risk if used normally. The two rechargeables probably didn't have protection. Probably made cheap and not from a reputable company. Two lithium-ion batteries connected together is EXTREMELY risky (unless you monitor your batteries). Over discharge/charge of lithium-ion batteries are guaranteed to cause cell damage.



Wow dude, it is clearly stated in the first post that the original primary 123 cells that came in the package with the flashlight were the ones that went poof.


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## snakyjake (Jan 5, 2012)

jonnyfgroove said:


> Wow dude, it is clearly stated in the first post that the original primary 123 cells that came in the package with the flashlight were the ones that went poof.



Wow Dude...did you not notice he edited the first post? Besides, there is no reason not to be crystal clear on what was used because I've never heard problems with primaries, only lithium ion. This is the first I've heard of primaries causing problems. So this news is a big game changer on accessing safety vs. risk....once we get all the facts verified.


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## CampingMaster (Jan 5, 2012)

snakyjake said:


> Wow Dude...did you not notice he edited the first post?



The edition was only for small orthographic erros NOT TO CHANGE THE POST.

You should read the post # 19 and 23, you have a real difficulty to read and understand english.

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## Kestrel (Jan 5, 2012)

CampingMaster said:


> He showed me also all the ten batteries that I bought for him (4Sevens batteries).
> To my great astonishment the batteries inside his Regular Quark 123² XP-G R5 were the original primary 4Sevens CR123A included with the flashlight...


The remaining CR123 primaries need to be checked via a ZTS tester. This will be very important information for CPF members.

It is fortunate (from a forensic perspective) that there remains a significant quantity (10) of these cells *hopefully* *from the same production lot (?)* that can be analyzed for remaining capacity. If any of the remaining cells have a significantly lower capacity, this will be very revealing for the purposes of this thread.

I'm surprised that some here are surprised that multiple CR123 primaries in series can in *rare* situations be dangerous - we get threads on this topic regularly.

None of my CR123 lights have housed _multiple_ primaries for a few years now.


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## CampingMaster (Jan 5, 2012)

Kestrel said:


> The remaining CR123 primaries need to be checked via a ZTS tester. This will be very important information for CPF members.
> 
> It is fortunate (from a forensic perspective) that there remains a significant quantity (10) of these cells *hopefully* *from the same production lot (?)* that can be analyzed for remaining capacity. If any of the remaining cells have a significantly lower capacity, this will be very revealing for the purposes of this thread.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for your comment!


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## snakyjake (Jan 5, 2012)

I have read the posts, and some of us are trying to verify (post 13,16,17). Like I said, what happened isn't something most of us are aware of. We mostly hear about these events with lithium-ion...hence the desire for clarification.


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## CampingMaster (Jan 5, 2012)

snakyjake said:


> I have read the posts, and some of us are trying to verify (post 13,16,17). Like I said, what happened isn't something most of us are aware of. We mostly hear about these events with lithium-ion...hence the desire for clarification.



In these post 13, 16 and 17 instead of reading carefully and trying to understand all the very good information I gave all these people read to fast and try to speculate...

Many others understands very well what happens.

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## snakyjake (Jan 5, 2012)

Was Claude (and others you may have gifted) familiar with the risks and safe handling methods of lithium batteries?


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## CampingMaster (Jan 5, 2012)

snakyjake said:


> Was Claude (and others you may have gifted) familiar with the risks and safe handling methods of lithium batteries?



Never I saw in my documentation from Fenix and 4Sevens advices on the use of Lithium Primary or Rechargeable for their flashlights. The instruction booklet is few pages with minimum info.

I only heard of problems charging Rechargeable RCR123A on this forum.

If there is a PDF somewhere on «the risks and safe handling methods of lithium batteries» give me the link. Anyway my friend did the same thing I would do : use his flashlight with approved batteries.

When you buy a flashlight there is no instructions to check with a voltmeter if a batterie Primary or Rechargeable is lower than the other to avoid a dangerous explosion...

All the flashlights I ordered in the last couple of years is because friends asked me to buy one for them because they were impressed of the power of the new LED technologie I had in my holster. Any of these flashlights that I bought was a gift but sold at the same price I paid them.

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## snakyjake (Jan 5, 2012)

CampingMaster said:


> If there is a PDF somewhere on «the risks and safe handling methods of lithium batteries» give me the link.


Since you slammed me for not reading (or wanting verification), I'll do the same by suggesting you learn how to use the search feature. Many threads have discussed the dangers and safe responsible handling. Plenty on primaries too. 

If there are others that have received your generous flashlight gifts (and if you haven't already done so), make sure they are informed and trained.



CampingMaster said:


> When you buy a flashlight there is no instructions



I agree there should be a legal warning on lithium, batteries, cell phones, laptops, etc. Then maybe, just maybe, we would be better informed of the risks and safety procedures.

Even after reading tons of posts, and trying to piece them together between people saying something that "we have a better chance of breathing asbestos than having a battery explosion" or "_safe _lithium-ion battery chemistry"....it is somewhat difficult to really know what is really safe. I have to rely on what every else says and figure out who actually knows what they are talking about.

Posts like these make me think of going NiMH.


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## CampingMaster (Jan 5, 2012)

snakyjake said:


> Since you slammed me for not reading (or wanting verification), Hey hey hey !!!
> 
> I'll do the same by suggesting you learn how to use the search feature. Many threads have discussed the dangers and safe responsible handling. Plenty on primaries too. Many threads is not one PDF, sorry I read them all.
> 
> ...



Ultimate CampingMaster


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## snakyjake (Jan 6, 2012)

Read this sticky:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?124776-123-Primary-Lithium-cell-info-testing-links

It is a bit difficult to read your messages with the grammar, communication style, and punctuation errors. I don't walk all over you for your English efforts, I hope for the same courtesy when I'm trying to read it and ask for clarity.


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## Kestrel (Jan 6, 2012)

Everyone, please no sniping & stay on topic. Thanks,


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 6, 2012)

~

For those interested in reading similar threads like this one .....

You may click on this link to the "Archived pages" of the Battery Sub Forum : 
"Smoke and Fire, Hot Cells and Close Calls - The dangerous side of batteries"

This "Archive" is a list of threads detailing certain "battery mis-haps" over the years on CPF . You can learn a lot from each thread .

The mis-haps include Primary type and Lithium-Ion rechargable type cells .
Both while being used in multi-cell lights and while being re-charged .

By reading these various threads we ALL learn from their mistakes .



Here is also a link to ALL the CPF Archives available : "Archive Index"

~


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 6, 2012)

.
~

The Heads of our lights need to be metal for heat-sinking purposes .....

But maybe we could get by with plastic end caps for switches and battery loading.That way maybe excessive pressure build up in a battery tube would just strip the plastic threads on the cap and pop it off , since it would be the weakest point of the metal battery tube . Seems that would be safer than these threaded pipe bombs that we are currently using . We just never know ..... any of us might be next to have an un-expected incident .

On twistie lights with no end caps , maybe the rear half of the body tube could be plastic , so it would rupture and split .... rather than explode and go flying .


Before it happens to you , maybe we should be collectively seeking a better solution to this on going problem . Holes drilled in the tube and filled with wax or a semi-permanent filler as a pressure relief valve , has been previously suggested . I am not sure the hole could be large enough to expel rapidly expanding gasses fast enough to prevent a violent explosion like the one seen in this thread .


Is it time to put Safety before aesthetically pleasing (metal) pipe bomb end-caps ?

Could you members tolerate threaded plastic safety end caps on your lights ?



~


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## HKJ (Jan 6, 2012)

TooManyGizmos said:


> I am not sure the hole could be large enough to expel rapidly expanding gasses fast enough to prevent a violent explosion like the one seen in this thread .



I am not sure about the "rapidly expanding" part, if you look at the cell the ventilations holes are very small. The pressure might build slowly up (a second or two) and when it is high enough the tailcap and heads are forced away.


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## Lou Minescence (Jan 6, 2012)

Looking at the picture, it appears the left battery was alot hotter than the right. I can't tell the brand of the left battery, the right battery didn't burn off it's label.


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 6, 2012)

HKJ said:


> I am not sure about the "rapidly expanding" part, if you look at the cell the ventilations holes are very small. The pressure might build slowly up (a second or two) and when it is high enough the tailcap and heads are forced away.



~ HKJ ,

When this happens , do you think plastic end cap threads on the Light body would be stripped away by the pressure ? Would a plastic cap just pop off and allow the flames and gasses to escape less violently ? (and NOT explode) (I've never seen a Hand grenade with a plastic filler hole plug in the bottom)

This would have scared the CRAP out of me - enough to cause a future flashlight phobia !

Apparently ... the way this was described ... this event could have happened to any one of us ... that's what bothers me . And it seems there was no prior warning of it to alert the guy ! - He had it right beside his HEAD ! - I wonder if this user would now prefer a flashlight with a body that was not quite so strong and durable as to withstand being run over by a tank . The stronger it is ... the more strongly it will erupt from within . Plastic tailcaps ... anyone ?

~


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## HKJ (Jan 6, 2012)

TooManyGizmos said:


> ~ HKJ ,
> 
> When this happens , do you think plastic end cap threads on the Light body would be stripped away by the pressure ? Would a plastic cap just pop off and allow the flames and gasses to escape less violently ? (and NOT explode) (I've never seen a Hand grenade with a plastic filler hole plug in the bottom)



This will depend on how strongly it is attach to the body. A solid plastic endcap with a solid thread would probably be nearly as bad. The idea is to avoid high pressure, that can throw stuff far away at high velocity, this might also reduce the risk of flames. 
I believe that some plastic filled holes in the body would be better, they can be designed to block high pressure from outside, but open for releative low pressure from inside. For lights where the battery fits rather tight, it would be possible to place these holes at the head of the battery, i.e. where the battery lets out pressure.
Only concern is how it would feel when having a hand over the plastic filled hole. As long as you just get shocked and drops the light it is fine, but if it can do serious damage to the hand, it is very bad.


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## GunnarGG (Jan 6, 2012)

If we take care of all this things that's said in this and the other threads about venting batteries - only high quality cells, balance cells, never drain to much in multi cell lights etc.
Isn't this a rare happening compared to the large amounts of CR123 cells used? Maybe I'm only trying to calm my self about the risks?
We do use cars, bikes, powertools and all kind of things there we know there is a risk of accident.
We do what we can do minimize the risk though.

@TooManyGizmos, this is a good idea.
In cars we have deformation zones. If we have an accident these zones will deform while where the driver and passengers are we try to keep intact.
Sometimes people hold there flashlight in the mouth and then having the tail being the weakest part maybe not the best.
Thinking about it, for me I think I would prefer if just the front end of the light blow out - lens, reflector etc.
That is the end of the flashlight that I probably don't point to my face or hold my hand for.
on the other hand I might point the light at something / somebody I don't want to shoot pieces of glass against!


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 6, 2012)

~

It just seems to me that some attempt should be made to reduce the violent nature of what he experienced , what ever that might be .

Anything to reduce what he experienced .... would be an improvement.

I'm just trying to get folks to think about an alternative to what we have now .

There seems to be some room for improvement so as to reduce violent pressure buildup .

If this had happened to you ? ..... what improvements would you be looking for ?


If these events continue .... O.S.H.A. may get involved.
I hope my TV remote control don't blow up in my hand today.

~


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## TooManyGizmos (Jan 6, 2012)

~

Here is my last statement ............ ( I'm going to bed )


I think some part of the battery tube should be made of softer plastic ....
that will rupture less violently than the metal ... during a catastrophic failure .

Yes, we use tools and drive cars, but how many of those blow-up without warning ?

~


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## Helmut.G (Jan 6, 2012)

CampingMaster, thank you for posting this and the excellent pics.
Please question your friend and try to answer the following questions, it's important to have as much info as possible. Edit the answers into your first post, too.


1. How much was the light used over all that time since it was bought, and what brightness levels were used?

2. What brightness level was used when the incident happened?

3. Was the flashlight noticeably dimmer compared to using new batteries (maybe you could give your friend a similar light to compare with his memory)?


You can see, my questions are intended to gain info about the condition of the batteries and what power they were demanded to deliver at the time of the incident.




Oh and since checking on batteries with a voltmeter or multimeter was mentioned several times, everybody please be aware that
*the resting voltage of a CR123 primary battery doesn't tell you much, if anything.*

It's only true for Li-Ion rechargeable batteries that their voltage correlates to charge condition.


----------



## CampingMaster (Jan 6, 2012)

Helmut.G said:


> CampingMaster, thank you for posting this and the excellent pics.
> 
> Please question your friend and try to answer the following questions, it's important to have as much info as possible. Edit the answers into your first post, too.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for these very good and pertinent questions.

I talked with my friend few minutes ago and :

1- The use of the flashlight was very sparingly, very little use over 13 months. Was it at maximum the few times he uses it ? I think so.

2- Probably 95% sure the maximum (for those who are used to Fenix terms : maximum for 4Sevens = Turbo for Fenix ), but because he did not use it often maybe he did not know that his flashlight was'nt delivering the real maximum ( 230 lumens ).

3- He is at on hour ride from my home, I am supposed to see him back when I will receive his new replacement flashlight, only in few weeks, at that moment we will discuss about your questions and give more info in this thread. If I get more info before that all the details will be posted, I am waiting also from him a report of the details of what happens for 4Sevens and CPF users.

Thank you again for your questions, this will help to pinpoint something not to do with with our flashlights using 3 V. batteries.

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## SilverFox (Jan 6, 2012)

Hello CampingMaster,

Years ago several tests were done showing the dangers of primary lithium cells. The basic problem was that lower quality cells often are not matched in capacity, and this can also happen if partially used cells are used with new cells. In order to generate the "rapid venting with flame" a few things need to be in place. You need heat, a cell that is being reversed charged, and enough time to get the chemical reaction going.

The basic safety aspects that came out of this testing were to use quality cells, to never mix partially used or different brands of cells with new cells in a multi cell light, to make sure the light is shut off and locked out, and to no worry about the last little bit of capacity in the cells. When the light starts to dim, replace the cells.

Following these procedures, the incidents of "exploding" flashlights has been greatly reduced. It is still not quite zero, but greatly reduced.

Tom


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## awyeah (Jan 9, 2012)

SilverFox, I can't seem to locate the thread where the testing was done - do you have a link handy? (I tried to search, I really did!)

One quick question about depleted cells. My only CR123A light is a single cell (Fenix E15). Is it dangerous or risky to run it until it totally stops working to deplete the cell as much as possible? After I do that, is the battery any more or less safe? I always figured I should deplete the cell as much as possible before throwing it away.


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## SilverFox (Jan 10, 2012)

Hello Awyeah,

Here it is. 

One of the key components to explosive behavior with the CR123 cell is heat. Once the cell is pretty much used up, it is hard to generate enough heat to keep a chemical reaction going. In general single cell lights with a discharged cell are not a problem. I use a single cell area light and feed it with my partially used CR123 cells. It completely drains them.

Tom


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## Mr Happy (Jan 10, 2012)

I'd just like to address the questions above regarding the relative risks between primary lithium cells and rechargeable lithium ion cells.

Primary lithium cells contain metallic lithium. This is a very reactive metal that is itching to burst into flames like an incendiary device. It makes the risk and effects of energetic decomposition *very much higher* with primary lithium cells than with rechargeable cells. The only thing that keeps this reactive metal in check inside a battery is very careful attention to the chemical composition, construction and quality control of the battery. The stability of the battery is a fine balancing act between producing electricity and exploding.

This inherent danger is the reason for recommending the use only of batteries made in the USA or Japan (or Europe) and not China. With the best of intentions it is hard to get the same consistent quality control in a factory in China that can be achieved in the USA.

Some may recall the early history of rechargeable lithium batteries where the first designs actually used metallic lithium. These did not make it into mainstream use because they were too dangerous. Likewise some may have heard the danger of metallic lithium plating out in lithium ion batteries if they are improperly charged. Again, the metallic lithium makes the battery unstable and liable to fail violently.

Never forget that primary lithium cells are full of metallic lithium. There is a lot of energy sitting there waiting to escape and if something goes wrong it can escape very violently. Frankly, I am always a bit nervous around them.

Some suggestions for safe use are to buy only the quality USA made ones, and try to use them only in single cell lights. If using them in pairs, always use fresh stock, dispose of them and replace them before they are fully depleted, and based on this thread replace them after six months of use whether they still have life left in them or not.


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## awyeah (Jan 14, 2012)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Awyeah,
> 
> One of the key components to explosive behavior with the CR123 cell is heat. Once the cell is pretty much used up, it is hard to generate enough heat to keep a chemical reaction going. In general single cell lights with a discharged cell are not a problem. I use a single cell area light and feed it with my partially used CR123 cells. It completely drains them.
> 
> Tom



So today I was draining a 123 battery in my Fenix E15 - it had gotten to 40% on the ZTS tester, and since it's my only CR123 flashlight and my EDC, I like to keep fresh cells in it. 

As the battery got closer to death, the light (and battery) began to warm up a lot more than usual. I turned it off and took the cell out. It took a while but it finally cooled down. It is at the "flashing 20%" level on the ZTS now. Is this normal behavior or was that battery headed toward a poof?

It wasn't too hot to touch, but warm enough that I was concerned. 

I am fairly inexperienced with these cells, and sometimes I get a little apprehensive about them.


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 14, 2012)

Hello Awyeah,

That sounds normal. When they get too hot to hold in your hand, you are getting closer to a problem.

Tom


----------



## roadkill1109 (Jan 14, 2012)

awyeah said:


> So today I was draining a 123 battery in my Fenix E15 - it had gotten to 40% on the ZTS tester, and since it's my only CR123 flashlight and my EDC, I like to keep fresh cells in it.
> 
> As the battery got closer to death, the light (and battery) began to warm up a lot more than usual. I turned it off and took the cell out. It took a while but it finally cooled down. It is at the "flashing 20%" level on the ZTS now. Is this normal behavior or was that battery headed toward a poof?
> 
> ...



you know what would be better? Just use the light until it runs out by normal operation rather than keeping it on to drain it, just carry a fresh cell with you so when the battery drains normally, swap it out with the fresh one and just charge the old one when you get home.


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## roadkill1109 (Jan 14, 2012)

Did Dave or somebody at 4Sevens make an official statement on this incident?


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## Viking (Jan 15, 2012)

Are 4Seven batteries made in China , or are they actually panasonics ?


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## aimxplode (Jan 15, 2012)

Viking said:


> Are 4Seven batteries made in China , or are they actually panasonics ?



They are made in China. They are definitely not Panasonics.


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## hank (Jan 15, 2012)

A reminder -- lithium primary cells packed in shipping containers have caught fire. They don't need to be in use to catch fire.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+primary+battery

(read carefully, most of the documents talk about two different chemistries -- lithium primary, and lithium-ion rechargeable)

This among others was done after the shipping container caught fire -- it tests brand-name nonrechargeable primary lithium cells commonly used in consumer appliances and describes how they burn: 
Flammability Assessment of Bulk- Packed, Nonrechargeable Lithium ...
www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/04-26.pdf


Aside -- I've been looking for some place to take dead batteries. Well, if I were in Hollywood I could go to Amoeba Music and drop them off: http://www.amoeba.com/content/think-green.html

Recycling http://www.toxco.com/ costs about $1.50/lb -- I'm emailing to ask if they can tell me somewhere around my ZIP code that has a pickup box where I can take my dead battery collection.

(The usual places like Ace Hardware and Radio Shack near me accept _only_ cellphone batteries)


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## [email protected] (Jan 19, 2012)

We are currently assisting CampingMaster in finding a good resolution to this.

-Trevor


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## aimxplode (Jan 19, 2012)

CampingMaster or 4Sevens, please update us when the problem has been found/resolved.


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## CampingMaster (Jan 19, 2012)

aimxplode said:


> CampingMaster or 4Sevens, please update us when the problem has been found/resolved.



Yes for sure!

As soon as I will be free I will publish the personnal report that I asked my friend to do, I received it yesterday.

I will come back soon, busy for now.

Bye ! 

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## CampingMaster (Jan 21, 2012)

TooManyGizmos said:


> ~
> 
> ALL Multi-cell lights must be used with knowledge and the proper precautions .
> 
> ...



Thank you, my friend had two primary batteries wrapped together (include with the flashlight) when the incident happened. Probably people not using their flashlight often and not changing their batteries on a regular basis should each three months unwrap the batteries and check them with a voltmeter to see if they are evenly discharging.

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## CampingMaster (Jan 21, 2012)

Lou Minescence said:


> Looking at the picture, it appears the left battery was alot hotter than the right. I can't tell the brand of the left battery, the right battery didn't burn off it's label.



These two batteries where 4Sevens primary include with the flashlight, they come wrapped together in a row. My friend did not at any time mixed batteries. The incident happened with 13 months old batteries - in other words -> the very same batteries where in the flashlight for 13 months for a flashlight that was used sparingly.

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## CampingMaster (Jan 21, 2012)

SilverFox said:


> Hello CampingMaster,
> 
> Years ago several tests were done showing the dangers of primary lithium cells. The basic problem was that lower quality cells often are not matched in capacity, and this can also happen if partially used cells are used with new cells. In order to generate the "rapid venting with flame" a few things need to be in place. You need heat, a cell that is being reversed charged, and enough time to get the chemical reaction going.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much!

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## CampingMaster (Jan 21, 2012)

roadkill1109 said:


> Did Dave or somebody at 4Sevens make an official statement on this incident?



4Sevens asked me to send them all the remaining parts of the Quark 123² and batteries, what I did yesterday Friday.

From Montreal Canada to 4Sevens, LLC in USA the Postal Service told me it will take 4 weeks - unbelievable 4 weeks...

They told me it will take 2 weeks by airplaine...

I choose the cheapest way - 4 weeks for 6$CAD

Ultimate CampingMaster




[/IMG]


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## CampingMaster (Jan 21, 2012)

Here is the report I asked to my friend to do for the benefices of all of us and 4Sevens :
_
(has been emailed to 4Sevens)_

4 Sevens, Flashlight 

First, I would like to thank you for your fine products. 

I would like to share an incident that happened about four weeks ago. 

I put on the 4 Sevens flashlight with the 2 original batteries. 

I was holding in my hand the flashlight and about 2-3 minutes later, I hear a bang 
like a shot gun and seconds after another bang while I was still holding the 
flashlight. Then it started to get hot and I let it drop on the floor and smoke 
came out of it. My wife and I were wondering what was happening. 

Then the flashlight exploded and hit me on my foot and broke into piecies. 

Then two fires broke out and burn our wood floor which we put out rapidly with a 
small burn in the wood. The smell was so strong that it went to the neighbors 
appartment. 

We pick up the pieces and gave them to Pierre Nadon (He sold it to me). 

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## Max_Power (Jan 21, 2012)

In Santa Clara, you can take your dead batteries to the fire department, they collect them for free. I bet Berkeley FD does the same thing. Keeps nasty stuff like mercury out of the landfill.


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## Black Rose (Jan 22, 2012)

CampingMaster said:


> From Montreal Canada to 4Sevens, LLC in USA the Postal Service told me it will take 4 weeks - unbelievable 4 weeks...
> 
> They told me it will take 2 weeks by airplaine...
> 
> I choose the cheapest way - 4 weeks for 6$CAD


The people at the post office mislead you.

I have sent li-ion cells to the US west coast by ground and they got there in the same amount of time as if I had chosen to send them by air mail.

Average time to any location in the US with ground or air packet is 12 to 14 days. 

But considering what you were mailing, I'm surprised they even offered the airmail option.


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## MorePower (Jan 23, 2012)

Max_Power said:


> In Santa Clara, you can take your dead batteries to the fire department, they collect them for free. I bet Berkeley FD does the same thing. K*eeps nasty stuff like mercury out of the landfill.*



Not really, unless people are taking zinc-air cells to the FD. No other type of consumer cell sold in the US contains mercury other than zinc air cells, which are what hearing aids typically use.

Sorry for the off topic, but this kind of misinformation needs to stop spreading.


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## hank (Jan 23, 2012)

and, no, Santa Clara's program isn't available anywhere else I've found. I contacted the 'Big Green Box' company that takes all types of batteries, and they will be rolling out a household-size recycle/return package in the next few months


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## Helmut.G (Jan 23, 2012)

Does that mean you throw your used batteries into the wastebin in the US?

In germany every store that sells any kind of batteries or any product containing or using batteries is required to take back used batteries for recycling plus there are many public bottle banks that have a special hole for used batteries.


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## andrewnewman (Jan 23, 2012)

Helmut.G said:


> Does that mean you throw your used batteries into the wastebin in the US?
> 
> In germany every store that sells any kind of batteries or any product containing or using batteries is required to take back used batteries for recycling plus there are many public bottle banks that have a special hole for used batteries.



Here in CT the Home Depot I frequent has a big bin and they encourage people to put ALL KINDS of rechargeable batteries in there. I've seen lots of NiCD drill packs and LiIon laptop batteries. They have a similar (separate) bin for compact fluorescent bulbs.


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## hank (Jan 23, 2012)

It's a major problem, Helmut. Rules vary; here's a good collection: 
http://www.ehso.com/csshome/battery_recycling_in_california.php


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## 4sevens (Feb 2, 2012)

Hi everyone - we are actively investigating this and will have forensics done on the remains when they arrive.
The only time we've observed this is if the lithium primaries were charged despite warnings on the label. 
I am not saying that the customer did that I'm just saying that this is what we've found to be the cause in the past.
The primaries do not rupture while charge but while discharging after being charged.

Campmaster I'm glad nobody was hurt - we're going to do everything to make this right.
Do you know who filed this incident with the cpsc.gov and insisted that they remain anonymous?

-D


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## CampingMaster (Feb 2, 2012)

4sevens said:


> Hi everyone - we are actively investigating this and will have forensics done on the remains when they arrive.
> 
> Do you know who filed this incident with the cpsc.gov and insisted that they remain anonymous?
> 
> -D



Thank you 4Sevens. I don't know who filed this incident with the cpsc.gov, probably a competitor in USA.

I live in Canada and did not contact any and will not contact any governement agency of any country about *this very rare situation *which I think might be very difficult or impossible to duplicate.

Me and my friend are very satisfied with your products and will continue to use them and will cooperate at any stage of your investigation to help you understand what happens.

Your very truly -> Ultimate CampingMaster


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## TwitchALot (May 12, 2012)

I'm very interested in this thread and what's going on. I've had uneven battery drain in one of my double packed 4Sevens lights (2 x CR123A, batteries came wrapped together). My G5 went dim suddenly an unexpectedly given the relative lack of use. I shut the light down immediately and checked the batteries with a voltmeter. Not as good as a ZTS, but one batter was at 3.1 V or so at rest and the other 2.X, where X resulted in a substantial resting voltage difference. I imagine under high load the difference would be magnified. 

In any event, I chucked the bad one and used the other in a single cell light. So yes, this CAN happen even with packaged 2 x CR123A batteries, but since I knew what was up from my extensive reading about batteries on this site, there were no safety issues - but you do have to recognize symptoms and act appropriately, and follow Silverfox's advice. 

QC is really a big deal with these batteries - manufacturers may show good initial procedures and produce quality batteries, but over time, if they're not constantly hounded by QC and have that quality mindset, can slack or try to cut costs on their end after proving they can do a good job (they just no longer do it to the same standard they initially had). I'm not saying that's what happened here, but good QC is a constant cost - it doesn't stop after initial batch runs or procurement tests, but has to keep going to make sure suppliers are doing the very best job they can all the time.


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## Larbo (May 12, 2012)

Not meaning to hijack anyones thread, bit I think this is relevant and may shed light on the 123x2 issue here. http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?272299-Lithium-Battery-Issues

This was not a bang and fire problem thats why I posted it there.


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## Let It Bleed (May 12, 2012)

If a consumer files a product safety complaint, they have the right to choose whether to share their contact information (i.e. the complainant must disclose identity, but have the option to keep their identifiable information confidential). 

Without getting into details, competitors cannot submit anonymous reports. Anonymous complaints aren't published. Complainant cannot be anonymous, but they do have right for this information not to be published or disclosed.


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## brainy1000 (May 14, 2012)

TwitchALot said:


> I'm very interested in this thread and what's going on. I've had uneven battery drain in one of my double packed 4Sevens lights (2 x CR123A, batteries came wrapped together). My G5 went dim suddenly an unexpectedly given the relative lack of use. I shut the light down immediately and checked the batteries with a voltmeter. Not as good as a ZTS, but one batter was at 3.1 V or so at rest and the other 2.X, where X resulted in a substantial resting voltage difference. I imagine under high load the difference would be magnified.
> 
> In any event, I chucked the bad one and used the other in a single cell light. So yes, this CAN happen even with packaged 2 x CR123A batteries, but since I knew what was up from my extensive reading about batteries on this site, there were no safety issues - but you do have to recognize symptoms and act appropriately, and follow Silverfox's advice.
> 
> QC is really a big deal with these batteries - manufacturers may show good initial procedures and produce quality batteries, but over time, if they're not constantly hounded by QC and have that quality mindset, can slack or try to cut costs on their end after proving they can do a good job (they just no longer do it to the same standard they initially had). I'm not saying that's what happened here, but good QC is a constant cost - it doesn't stop after initial batch runs or procurement tests, but has to keep going to make sure suppliers are doing the very best job they can all the time.



It's also my opinion. 100% agree. +1 here, waiting for updates about this important issue.


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## CampingMaster (May 16, 2012)

brainy1000 said:


> +1 here, waiting for updates about this important issue.



I am sorry to report that I do not have any updates for you.

It's been three months and half now since 4Sevens received all the pieces ( Feb 2 - 2012 ) and I haven't received any email nor any compensation.

It looks like I will have to pay out of my own pocket for another flashlight for my friend and give him a few hundreds dollars for the damages he incurred in his appartment and also for the fact that he and his wife had to inhale the fumes from the set of two batteries that emptied by themselves after the explosion.

I will have to use my income tax refund to pay for this.

I would have never imagined having this kind of experience with 4Sevens from whom I ordered nearly forty flashlights (39) for me and my friends, prism's kits and a few hundreds of 4Sevens batteries.

This is very sad and very expensive for me to backup 4Sevens.

I am very satisfied with the products but not for the way 4Sevens took care of this issue.

I have nothing more to say – I am sorry.

Ultimate CampingMaster :-(


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## 4sevens (May 17, 2012)

I'll chime in here with my current findings...

Firstly, the two cells that were supposedly shrink wrapped and used together - well there is no evidence that they were shrink wrap when this incident happened. It is my believe that mixed capacity cells were used thus causing one full cell to charge into a depleted cell when the light was in use, thus causing this incident. Usually there is residual shrink wrap when used in pairs - I found not of that in the remains.

Secondly, I have build a large test cage behind our warehouse and have been repeatedly trying to replicate this incident. I've used up nearly 50 cells trying all kinds of situations, abusing cells by mixing and matching and charging them and have not been able to replicate the incident. I will continue to investigate and try to find out the source of the problem. So far I have not been able to do it.

Thirdly, Mr camp master, please send me receipts of all expenses that you'd had to cover for your friend. I will take care of it. I do not believe our product is at fault but I want make sure you're taken care of. 

thanks,
-David


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## Lou Minescence (May 17, 2012)

This is proof that 4 sevens is old fashioned customer service. I am in business myself and have been in a few situations where something happened and the cause is unclear, or I was not responsible at all. I do the same thing. Either way, David has proved himself and his reputation.


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## JudasD (May 17, 2012)

Lou Minescence said:


> This is proof that 4 sevens is old fashioned customer service. I am in business myself and have been in a few situations where something happened and the cause is unclear, or I was not responsible at all. I do the same thing. Either way, David has proved himself and his reputation.



I agree 100%. This makes me very proud to own many 4sevens lights.

JD


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## frosty (May 17, 2012)

+1 on that.


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## Beacon of Light (May 19, 2012)

So how does one cell charge into another depleted cell? Why would this not also happen in a 2xAA light? I just checked a rarely used Novatac Special Ops 2xRCR123 with 2 Tenergy 900mAh LiFe04Po 3.0v cells and there were severely over discharged. These are basically new batteries and maybe have 2-3 charge cycles on them. How the heck did they get this over discharged when the light never gets used? I didn't think RCR123s have self discharge problems like NiMH cells did before they started making low self discharge cells like Eneloops.


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## Helmut.G (May 19, 2012)

Beacon of Light said:


> So how does one cell charge into another depleted cell? Why would this not also happen in a 2xAA light? I just checked a rarely used Novatac Special Ops 2xRCR123 with 2 Tenergy 900mAh LiFe04Po 3.0v cells and there were severely over discharged. These are basically new batteries and maybe have 2-3 charge cycles on them. How the heck did they get this over discharged when the light never gets used? I didn't think RCR123s have self discharge problems like NiMH cells did before they started making low self discharge cells like Eneloops.


Can happen to AAs just as well, except they won't explode with a big fire. They can release gases though and alkalines love to spill loads of potassium hydroxide solution (don't get too much on your hands, it is corrosive).

You might want to start a new thread for discussing your tenergy cells. I'd say it's probably a parasitic drain problem with the Novatac.


----------



## ikeyballz (May 23, 2012)

-edited!-


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## MorePower (May 23, 2012)

Beacon of Light said:


> So how does one cell charge into another depleted cell? Why would this not also happen in a 2xAA light? I just checked a rarely used Novatac Special Ops 2xRCR123 with 2 Tenergy 900mAh LiFe04Po 3.0v cells and there were severely over discharged. These are basically new batteries and maybe have 2-3 charge cycles on them. How the heck did they get this over discharged when the light never gets used? I didn't think RCR123s have self discharge problems like NiMH cells did before they started making low self discharge cells like Eneloops.



You are correct; one cell doesn't "charge into" another depleted cell. This is an often repeated, but thoroughly incorrect, statement.

When 2 cells are in series, the weaker cell will discharge sooner and the stronger cell can continue to drive the weak cell in to deeper discharge. If the weak cell is really bad, or there are more than 2 cells in series, it can be driven all the way beyond zero volts and into cell reversal, where the positive and negative terminals will be swapped. This will cause alkaline cells to leak, and can cause lithium primary cells to vent or start on fire.

I wish people would stop parroting this so-called fact. Overdischarge and cell reversal are the complete opposite of charging.

Rant over.


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## zenbeam (May 23, 2012)

Adding a 4 Sevens light or two to my budding collection just went way up on my wishlist!


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## JudasD (May 23, 2012)

MorePower said:


> You are correct; one cell doesn't "charge into" another depleted cell. This is an often repeated, but thoroughly incorrect, statement.
> 
> When 2 cells are in series, the weaker cell will discharge sooner and the stronger cell can continue to drive the weak cell in to deeper discharge. If the weak cell is really bad, or there are more than 2 cells in series, it can be driven all the way beyond zero volts and into cell reversal, where the positive and negative terminals will be swapped. This will cause alkaline cells to leak, and can cause lithium primary cells to vent or start on fire.
> 
> ...



They might be getting their series and parallel facts confused.

JD


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## 4sevens (May 23, 2012)

MorePower said:


> You are correct; one cell doesn't "charge into" another depleted cell. This is an often repeated, but thoroughly incorrect, statement.
> 
> When 2 cells are in series, the weaker cell will discharge sooner and the stronger cell can continue to drive the weak cell in to deeper discharge. If the weak cell is really bad, or there are more than 2 cells in series, it can be driven all the way beyond zero volts and into cell reversal, where the positive and negative terminals will be swapped. This will cause alkaline cells to leak, and can cause lithium primary cells to vent or start on fire.
> 
> ...


Good clarification. When the weaker cell reaches 0V and the circuit continues to drain the pair of cells in series the weaker cell gets REVERSE CHARGED. This is one reason why we sell our cells in two shrink wrapped packs. The cells are checked and balanced at the factory and then shrinked wrapped. This allows the cells to deplete at the same time as much as possible. AA's in series have the same issue however, you're dealing with half as much voltage and much much less capacity. Basically you should never pull two random unknown status cr123a's and throw them into any 2x cr123a light - regardless of what brand, make, model.

Hope this helps
David


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## MorePower (May 23, 2012)

The opposite of charged is discharged, not "reverse charged." While I understand what you mean, it would be better to use the term "driven into reversal," which is what the battery industry uses when referring a cell that has been discharged down to zero volts and then beyond, into full reversal.


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## 4sevens (May 23, 2012)

MorePower said:


> The opposite of charged is discharged, not "reverse charged." While I understand what you mean, it would be better to use the term "driven into reversal," which is what the battery industry uses when referring a cell that has been discharged down to zero volts and then beyond, into full reversal.


Ok... of course the word "charged" is not appropriate since 1) these batteries were never meant to be charged and 2) even if they were "charging" them backwards can hardly qualify.

In even simpler terms perhaps an apt description would be as if the battery was put into a charger backwards and allowed to take in current. There isn't such a charger and there isn't a lithium cr123a that is supposed to do that. So I don't blame you in avoiding the word "charge." The net effect is simply a dangerous proposition. Everyone, make sure your cells are at the same state/capacity/brand/ etc etc. 

David


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## CampingMaster (May 27, 2012)

4sevens said:


> I'll chime in here with my current findings...
> 
> Firstly, the two cells that were supposedly shrink wrapped and used together - well there is no evidence that they were shrink wrap when this incident happened. It is my believe that mixed capacity cells were used thus causing one full cell to charge into a depleted cell when the light was in use, thus causing this incident. Usually there is residual shrink wrap when used in pairs - I found not of that in the remains.
> 
> ...



Following my reading of post 83 by 4Sevens, I am indeed hurt and disappointed to read that, after 3 1/2 months of total silence on the part of 4Sevens, during which time my friend was never contacted, a conclusion was reached to the effect that my friend would have tampered with the shrink wrap and combined two cells of different voltage – a full one with a depleted one. 

It is unthinkable to imagine my friend “unwrapping” his two original cells and then “unwrapping” two new cells with the intent of combining two different cells. I just can't see how anyone in his right mind would do that, to tell you the truth. Moreover, he was able to afford five pairs of 4Sevens cells, a charger with four additional cells, a $69.00 flashlight and a $20.00 prism kit, so why would he start combining depleted cells with full ones? He had only used the flashlight once in a while in the 13 months following its purchase and the original cells were still shrink wrapped. The ten 4Sevens cells he bought remained shrink wrapped in groups of two and he never, but never, combined a depleted cell with a full one as suggested by David of 4Sevens (please note that my friend doesn't even own a voltmeter). 

4Sevens' allegation that the absence of shrink wrap among the remains led them to conclude that mixed capacity cells were used somehow makes us feel like we omitted facts or even lied. The intense heat generated inside the flashlight caused it to actually explode and burst in two parts: the 4Sevens label had disappeared from one of the cells and the other cell was found with only one third of the label on its surface. Moreover, two separate fires ignited in two separate locations within the apartment, fragments ended up scattered all over, yet residual shrink wrap should have be found among the remains? 

Since the beginning of this issue, I collaborated with 4Sevens and CPF users and I will continue to do so and provide them with information to understand what happened. After 4Sevens received, on February 2, 2012, the remains of the Quark 1232​ after it exploded in my friend's hands, testing was made but my friend was never contacted for pertinent questions. 

I understand that the above-mentioned findings are not definite and that David is still investigating this matter. I am confident that further testing will clear up his matter, especially since 4Sevens' repeated mixing and matching of cells (even though it was not the case) did _not _cause an explosion of the kind my friend experienced. Logically, we can safely conclude that the incident is due to some other factor. 

The purpose of this thread was outlined in post #1: “_This thread is to inform the flashaholic community of a dangerous incident related to primary CR123A. This is not at all to talk against the manufacturer of the battery that was used_.” I made no accusations against 4Sevens in the title of this thread, in fact I didn't even name it. Some of the contributors to this thread have implied that 4Sevens cells are cheap China cells; we don't imply that at all. We just want the truth. In the meantime, I maintain what I alleged in each and every one of my previous posts which are posts #1, #19, #64, #65, #68. My friend and I also maintain that mixed capacity cells were not used nor were primaries ever charged. 

For purposes of clarity, and since this is an important issue, this post has been reviewed and corrected by a legal translator.

Ultimate CampingMaster - Pierre Nadon


----------



## 4sevens (May 27, 2012)

Pierre - I sent you an email

-David


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## Lou Minescence (May 29, 2012)

This member ( myself ) of the CPF community would like to hear all of the evidence about the incident. After reading post # 96 it appears the issue is being taken personally. Science as well as interview data should be used to determine the cause of the explosion and inform people about any danger with using these batteries. No one was hurt, bills are going to be paid, we will wait to hear what was the cause.


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## brainy1000 (May 30, 2012)

Lou Minescence said:


> This member ( myself ) of the CPF community would like to hear all of the evidence about the incident. After reading post # 96 it appears the issue is being taken personally. Science as well as interview data should be used to determine the cause of the explosion and inform people about any danger with using these batteries. No one was hurt, bills are going to be paid, we will wait to hear what was the cause.



+1


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## 4sevens (May 30, 2012)

Pierre - please reply to my email or call me. Thanks.
-David


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## CampingMaster (May 30, 2012)

4sevens said:


> Pierre - please reply to my email or call me. Thanks.
> -David



David - I will contact you soon, every thing has to be revised by my legal translator before sending you any email, because :

1. - My mother's tongue is french.
2. - I need moderation in my way to express myself about this matter.
3. - My patience reached his limit.


To contact my friend which is more fluent than me in english -> I already sent to your employee Heather Zayicek, on January 17 - 2012, his cell phone number, home phone number and complete address ( to send him a new flashlight... ).

Pierre Nadon


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## radioactive_man (Jun 17, 2012)

I have a homemade battery tester. I simply place a 4.7 ohm resistor between two alligator clips, and touch the clips to the ends of the CR123A to be tested. The leads are connected to a voltmeter. Discharging across a 4.7 ohm resistor roughly translates to a discharge current of 638 mA. I then compare to the relevant graph in this thread: 

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?67078-123-Battery-Shoot-Out

I usually use the 500 mA discharge graph just to be on the safe side. I always use Panasonic or Surefire primaries and I discard them when they drop below 2.2 volts - that's when they are heading off the cliff, so to speak. If one of the cells in a multicell light drops below 2.2 volts before the others, I discard all cells and replace them with new ones. I do a test like this every two or three months, because I pocket carry a 4sevens 2x123 light or a Surefire LX2, and because I greatly dislike burns to the groin and genitals.


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## rookiedaddy (Jun 17, 2012)

4sevens said:


> ...
> Secondly, I have build a large test cage behind our warehouse and have been repeatedly trying to replicate this incident. I've used up nearly 50 cells trying all kinds of situations, abusing cells by mixing and matching and charging them and have not been able to replicate the incident. I will continue to investigate and try to find out the source of the problem. So far I have not been able to do it.
> ...


sorry for responding to a 1 month old post... but it's gonna be difficult to replicate the incident, you may need to take the batteries from the same batch, put them in the flashlight and leave it for 13 months... 

from my small collection of 4Sevens' CR123A cells (they came in pair), I do notice that after being in storage (whether in flashlight or in the original shrink-wrapped) for >12 months, cells that come in pair do indeed tested to different capacity, despite they may have started life as being equal. In fact, the same can be said of EagleTac's 1500mAH cells (the 1700mAH cells are still too new to test for this), while Sanyo, Panasonic, SureFire and Energizer are more consistent in this regard. :shrug: 

due to this, I now get into the habit of checking the cell Voltage whether new or been in flashlights for some time before use (both 4Sevens' and EagleTac's. and yes, I know unloaded Voltage reading doesn't tell the capacity, but it gives me a sense of security).


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## CampingMaster (Jul 29, 2012)

Thank you for your input rookiedaddy. At the end of august I will be able to test 5 pair of wrapped 4Sevens cells my friend still have ( for approximately 20 months ).

Habitually brand new 4Sevens cells test at 6.57 Volts a pair, I will see if there is a difference for twenty months on the shelf. Energizer test at 6.44 Volts a pair (03-2020 stamped on the cell).

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## CampingMaster (Sep 3, 2012)

CampingMaster said:


> I was very surprised when he showed me his RCR123A battery charger with all the four batteries that come with it... (Since SE-H001).
> 
> He showed me also all the ten batteries that I bought for him (4Sevens batteries).
> 
> ...



This quote from Post 1 is to introduce this post.

I saw my friend mid August, here are some pictures that I should have taken the first place:




[/IMG]
You can see in the background his new flashlight he received from FOURSEVENS. _Thank You very much David for this replacement, a QPL2 (Quark 123² XP-G R5)_.

What I said in Post 1: _«I was very surprised when he showed me his RCR123A battery charger with all the four batteries that come with it... (Since SE-H001). »

_That means that I was very surprised he never used his rechargeable batteries, *I was sure that the explosion was with his rechargeable cells not the primaries coming with the flashlight*. 

Note: My friend is an electrician as a profession he knows well that you don’t recharge a primary, then the incident is still a mystery.

Now more info about the 5 pairs of shrink wrap batteries :




[/IMG]
You can see on this picture de date of the cells and the fact that they never been used because you don't see the mark of the spring on them except lightly for the first set on the left - reason below.

Here are the voltage result of each pair that are on the picture above :
6.09 Volts
6.46 Volts
6.46 Volts
6.49 Volts
6.51 Volts

The pair at 6.09 V is the one that he was using in his new flashlight that David Chow sent him. I congratulate him to have his flashlight on his belt that day and not on a desk like he did before for 13 months.

I am presently using these 28 months "old" cells in my own flashlights (1 QP2L-X ; 1 Turbo X and 2 QX 123²), when they will be depleted I will unwrap them and give the results for each cells to FOURSEVENS.




[/IMG]
As you can see the label for the RCR123A are completely different vs 4Sevens primary’s label.

His four RCR123A where at : 4.01 V ; 4.01 V ; 4.08 V and 4.08 V 

He doesn't remember* using his charger but looking at the voltage results (they are not around 4.20 V) and having no reason to charge them because he had already the originals cells in his flashlight I really don’t think that he uses it. And anyway never he would have use the charger for primaries having many spare cells at hand and taking into account that his profession is an electrician...
_
*Note: He has a problem of sleep apnea that causes him to have memory loss._

Because he is very busy I told him it will be simpler for him to use primaries, I took back home his charger I gave him as a gift and replaced all his 4Sevens cells with Energizer cells to give him confidence for using his flashlight on a regular basis. I will use his 4Sevens primaries for myself *having complete confidence in the quality of these cells*.




[/IMG]
This picture is a simulation of the exact position of my friend Claude when the incident happenned.

Quote from Post 1 :_ "__When the incident happened, he was using his flashlight right beside his head to look behind a wall-mounted LCD television when the flashlight made a "bang" noise, like a rifle. After the flashlight was on the floor, another "bang" noise was heard and he had to extinguish not one but two fires, the flame from the fire on the floor being ten inches long."
_
If I forgot something, if you need more info, feel free to ask. I will do my best to help the Flashaholic Communauty to better understand the use of Lithium cells in our high tech flashlights.

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## GunnarGG (Sep 3, 2012)

We don't know how much he had used his flashlight but since it was the original set of batteries it seems likely (to me at least) that the batteries were getting depleted.
And then one battery more depleted than the other and got "reverse charged".
I mentioned before that I have a light in my car and it gets only little use.
When the light got dim (discharged batteries) I actually was surprised that they were beacuse I didn't think I had used it very much.
Probably those minutes each time adds up faster than we think.

CampingMaster, you say you will unwrap and measure the batteries when they get depleted.
If they were in my light I would unwrap and measure them NOW.
And then when I think they are half depleted again and so on...
Just to check if they keep their balance.


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## Pöbel (Sep 3, 2012)

although this happend quite a while ago I would still like to say I'm happy that nobody got hurt!

I believe CampingMaster is doing everything to state all facts as clearly as possible. I do not have the impression that he would make something up. On the other hand I can understand 4-sevens. Working in customer service you make a habbit of being sceptic.

Though looking at the pictures the LED is missing as ore other parts (without trace). This could also be true for the shrink wrap.

This incident reminds us that are beloved toys are indeed very powerful toys. Maybe we should only gift 1-cell lights to people who are using them seldom. No chance of mixing anything. Always be careful, always be safe!


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## CampingMaster (Sep 3, 2012)

GunnarGG said:


> We don't know how much he had used his flashlight but since it was the original set of batteries it seems likely (to me at least) that the batteries were getting depleted.



Quote from Post 49 : "_The use of the flashlight was very sparingly, very little use over 13 months. Was it at maximum the few times he uses it ? I think so."

The "I think so" should be read as : "Yes" after talking to my friend Claude mid August 2012.

Note : for Fenix users the term "Maximum" for FOURSEVENS is the same as "Turbo" for you.

_Ultimate CampingMaster


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## CampingMaster (Sep 3, 2012)

GunnarGG said:


> CampingMaster, you say you will unwrap and measure the batteries when they get depleted.
> If they were in my light I would unwrap and measure them NOW. And then when I think they are half depleted again and so on...Just to check if they keep their balance.



Thank You very much for your input, I take note of your advice.

I checked two pairs : one is at 5.88 Volts and individually : 2.95 Volts and 2.95 Volts
a second pair is at 5.98 Volts and individually : 2.99 Volts and 3.00 Volts

I will on a regular basis check the others set and give the results here on this thread.

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## RCS1300 (Sep 4, 2012)

+1

I read many of these posts with great interest. One thing is clear to me. The only fact we have is that two CR123a primaries exploded. The original post definitely makes me more cautious using CR123A's but I too am puzzled as to why they exploded.



snakyjake said:


> From the post something is not clear to me. It was mentioned "RCR123A battery charger" and "original primary 4Sevens CR123A". I can't help but wonder if the CR123A's were being recharged.
> 
> I thought the only battery chemistry danger of explosions is lithium-ion (rechargeables). Unless the non-rechargeable batteries (primaries) are serious damaged by attempts of recharging.
> 
> I think batteries don't need to be disposed of before 13 months. Most batteries have 10 year shelf life. Or what about all those lithium batteries in fire/smoke detectors?


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## CampingMaster (Sep 4, 2012)

RCS1300 said:


> +1



+1 for what?
Paragraph 1
Paragraph 2
or Paragraph 3?

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## sidecross (Sep 4, 2012)

roadkill1109 said:


> you know what would be better? Just use the light until it runs out by normal operation rather than keeping it on to drain it, just carry a fresh cell with you so when the battery drains normally, swap it out with the fresh one and just charge the old one when you get home.



This is what I have done for ten years with my Surefire batteries and have never had a problem.


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## CampingMaster (Sep 4, 2012)

This is how my regular reports on the five pairs of cells (from my friend) will look like, now I am using four sets.

Date for these readings : sept. 4-2012

 Both cells / first cell / second cell

*My EDC: QP2L-X -> 5.88 / 2.94 / 2.94

House: Quark X 123² -> 5.92 / 2.96 / 2.96

My wife: Quark X 123² -> 6.04 / 3.02 / 3.02

Camping: Quark 123² Turbo X -> 6.28 / 3.15 / 3.14
*
First cell = near the LED
Second cell = near the push button


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## RCS1300 (Sep 5, 2012)

CampingMaster said:


> +1 for what?
> Paragraph 1
> Paragraph 2
> or Paragraph 3?
> ...



(Thank you for the initial posting. To increase my safety, I've also ordered a ZTS battery tester to compliment my voltmeter.)

Simply, I'd be careful gifting lithium ion or lithium primary flashlights and batteries unless the owner plans to carefully manage their use and charging. For example, regularly using a voltmeter to measure and track usage and voltage depletion of each rechargeable and/or primary battery. 

On this forum I've read about individuals that have had those batteries explode due to poor management.

The safest option to give as a gift is regular alkaline batteries or rechargeable AA batteries.


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## Empire (Sep 5, 2012)

CampingMaster said:


> +1 for what?
> Paragraph 1
> Paragraph 2
> or Paragraph 3?
> ...


Paragraph, ALL.
You see, All this come together now.
Its all conspiratic of 47's to get the publicity of the forum so it get more customer.


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## Lucciola (Sep 5, 2012)

RCS1300 said:


> I've also ordered a ZTS battery tester to compliment my voltmeter (...) On this forum I've read about individuals that have had those batteries explode due to poor management.




I'm one of those average-joe flashlight users who is so far very happy with eneloops. Just recently I got myself the Quarks with 2xCR123. After reading this thread I really think about getting myself a ZTS tester. Could you please explain me why I would need an additional voltmeter considering I use only CR123 (from Surefire, except for the ones which came with the lights).

I bought the lights due to cold temperature resistance and the shelf life of CR123 - for not using them. One is in my car and the other is in my "duty" jacket, where it is unused most of the year, it just stays there to be ready should I need it.

After reading through this whole thread I begin to think whether I should get a ZTS cell tester for the CR123 lights and check the cells monthly or whether it wouldn't be better to use lights with eneloops for these applications as well and just replace the cells on a weekly or monthly basis. :thinking:

A ZTS tester might be a good investment anyway, but I read somewhere that it's not very helpful for eneloops.




> The safest option to give as a gift is regular alkaline batteries or rechargeable AA batteries.



That seems to be the quintessence of most lithium-accident threads. My standard gift to non-flashaholics are four eneloops, the 2-cell quick charger from Sanyo and a simple, well regulated 2xAA light (Fenix or 4​7​ Quark)


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## GunnarGG (Sep 5, 2012)

Lucciola,
If you only use primaries I think it's enough with the ZTS.
The voltmeter is more for LI-Ion.
About eneloops I find it reasonable useful.
I can at least se if it's fully charged, almost empty or between.
Tried it right now on my LD10.
The ZTS was blinking on 20%, put the battery back and after a few minutes the light lost high mode.


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## fyrstormer (Sep 5, 2012)

Protected RCR123 batteries would be better to use than single-use CR123 batteries. The protected RCR123 batteries have a circuit that disconnects each battery the moment a problem is detected, such as reverse-voltage, over-voltage, under-voltage, short-circuit, or overheating. The single-use batteries don't have that.


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## RCS1300 (Sep 5, 2012)

Lucciola:

I use 18650s and Cr123a batteries. I am not an expert and learned everything I know by reading the posts on this forum over the last three years. The voltmeter gives me confidence about status of charge mostly for recharging and matching multiple cells of the same charge on one light. The battery tester, as I understand it, provides a load test of the battery which I believe is more accurate than a current voltage reading especially as the batteries get older.

I rationalized the high cost of the battery tester at $70 as much cheaper than one hospital visit or a fire from poor battery management.

I don't keep Lithium or Lithium Ion batteries in the car as the car can heat up to 150 degrees F during the summer on the East Coast. Not good for these batteries. Instead, I purchased a Fenix LD22 which uses 2AA batteries and keep the batteries in a separate container right next to the light in the car. That way, if I forget about the light and batteries for months I don't have to worry about leakage and ruining the light.

With the Lithium and Lithium Ion batteries, I check their voltage every week or after each use depending on the amount of time I use the light. I also untwist the back cap of the flashlight that I store so that the batteries aren't engaged in a potential circuit until I need them. If I don't use the light for a week or two, I retest the batteries to check the charge and make sure the charges match in multiple cell applications.

There is nothing like the power of a two cell cr123a light or a two cell 18650 light for the purpose of personal security. In my training I was taught when threatened to light the immediate threat up and use a strong verbal command to challenge the threat (instead of drawing). In my opinion, the brightness of a CR123a or 18650 light says to a threat "this guy isn't a normal victim with that high powered light". I'd rather end a potential threat confrontation with a bright light and verbal command than something that would require much more explanation .


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## sidecross (Sep 5, 2012)

RCS1300 said:


> Lucciola:
> 
> I use 18650s and Cr123a batteries. I am not an expert and learned everything I know by reading the posts on this forum over the last three years. The voltmeter gives me confidence about status of charge mostly for recharging and matching multiple cells of the same charge on one light. The battery tester, as I understand it, provides a load test of the battery which I believe is more accurate than a current voltage reading.
> 
> I rationalized the high cost of the battery tester at $70 as much cheaper than one hospital visit or a fire from poor battery management.



I have ordered the battery tester ZTS MBT-1 for the same reason.


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## Lucciola (Sep 5, 2012)

@RCS1300: Thanks for the helpful post. Good hands-on advice. I'll get myself an MBT-1 then. Or maybe the smaller model which should also be sufficient for my use. However if I really consider going the step to Li-Ions the MBT-1 would be the better option.



fyrstormer said:


> Protected RCR123 batteries would be better to use than single-use CR123 batteries. The protected RCR123 batteries have a circuit that disconnects each battery the moment a problem is detected (...) The single-use batteries don't have that.



Excellent point. I never got my hands on Li-Ions because it seems like rocket science to me. But the protection circuit is a strong argument. If I have to be careful anyway with ballancing the CR123 cells for my lights I should maybe consider getting some AW RCR123s. Although for my "duty" jacket the lower capacity would bother me.


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## alpg88 (Sep 5, 2012)

does the draw current matter???
would discharging 4 cr123 in series (quality brands,like Panasonic, sanyo, surefire, Duracell) at 350ma have less risks of blow up, than discharging same set at 1A??


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## fyrstormer (Sep 6, 2012)

alpg88 said:


> does the draw current matter???
> would discharging 4 cr123 in series (quality brands,like Panasonic, sanyo, surefire, Duracell) at 350ma have less risks of blow up, than discharging same set at 1A??


High current output requires a high reaction rate, which produces more heat. Excessive heat always aggravates runaway chemical reactions.


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## fyrstormer (Sep 6, 2012)

Lucciola said:


> Excellent point. I never got my hands on Li-Ions because it seems like rocket science to me. But the protection circuit is a strong argument. If I have to be careful anyway with ballancing the CR123 cells for my lights I should maybe consider getting some AW RCR123s. Although for my "duty" jacket the lower capacity would bother me.


It's not really rocket science unless you want it to be.

When using lithium-cobalt-dioxide (RCR) Li-Ion batteries, always use the protected type. Even if the device has its own protection circuit, each cell should have its own protection circuit anyway, so it can be disconnected if it experiences problems.

When using lithium-manganese-dioxide (IMR) Li-Ion batteries, protection circuits are not necessary because the chemistry doesn't allow for runaway oxidation inside each cell. Recharge the batteries when the flashlight driver can't maintain regulated output anymore.

You can also do other things like measuring the full-charge voltage and amperage of each battery, and matching batteries according to their output, but it's not necessary to do so. Some people think it's fun, even if they claim it's for a good reason, but I've been relying on the protection circuits alone for years, and I've had no problems.


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## GunnarGG (Sep 6, 2012)

I don't have a Quark 2x123 myself but doesn't 17670 work?
That's what I use in my 2x123 lights if I want rechargeables (unless 18650 fits).
That way I don't have to worry about multi cells problems.
I still use protected cells.


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## Lou Minescence (Sep 6, 2012)

GunnarGG said:


> I don't have a Quark 2x123 myself but doesn't 17670 work?
> That's what I use in my 2x123 lights if I want rechargeables (unless 18650 fits).
> That way I don't have to worry about multi cells problems.
> I still use protected cells.



Same here. One cell when possible.


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## sidecross (Sep 6, 2012)

I have two Nitcore TM11 'Tiny Monster' lights with each having an Eagletac front diffusion filter. One is set up with 8 Surefire 123 batteries checked for equal voltage, and the other is running on four Eagletac 18650 3100 mAh protected batteries.

I will let anyone know if they explode! :thumbsup:


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## CampingMaster (Sep 13, 2012)

*Both cells / first cell / second cell

*
*My EDC: QP2L-X (new name for Quark X 123²)

-> 5.88 / 2.94 / 2.94 Sept 4-2012 ( Post #113 )

-> 5.74 / 2.87 / 2.87 Sept 13-2012


House: Quark X 123² (XM-L T6)

-> 5.92 / 2.96 / 2.96 Sept 4-2012 ( Post #113 )

-> 5.57 / 2.78 / 2.79 Sept 08-2012 these cells are now useless.

-> 6.50 / 3.25 / 3.26 Sept 08-2012 these cells are the fifth pair

-> 5.88 / 2.95 / 2.94 Sept 11-2012 these cells are the fifth pair

-> 6.00 / 3.00 / 3.00 Sept 13-2012 these cells are the fifth pair


My wife: Quark X 123² (XM-L T6)

-> 6.04 / 3.02 / 3.02 Sept 4-2012 ( Post #113 )

-> 6.06 / 3.03 / 3.03 Sept 13-2012


Camping: Quark 123² Turbo X (XM-L T6)

-> 6.28 / 3.15 / 3.14** Sept 4-2012 ( Post #113 )*
*
-> 6.08 / 3.04 / 3.04 Sept 13-2012

*
First cell = near the LED

Second cell = near the push button


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## fyrstormer (Sep 14, 2012)

What are you trying to say, CampingMaster? I'm confused.


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## CampingMaster (Sep 14, 2012)

GunnarGG said:


> CampingMaster, you say you will unwrap and measure the batteries when they get depleted.
> If they were in my light I would unwrap and measure them NOW.
> And then when I think they are half depleted again and so on...
> Just to check if they keep their balance.



I am doing what GunnarGG suggest to me on post 106.

If you have any other suggestions fyrstormer tell me and I will do it.

Ultimate CampingMaster


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## smokinbasser (Sep 14, 2012)

I have a digital Fluke VOM that was my service meter as an industrial truck tech and I check all my 123s for their voltage and match them up for dual batt lights and multi battery lights. If they do not match up they are saved for single cell lights


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## De-Lux (Sep 15, 2012)

Makes me think that the issue could have been a short in the light itself causing the cells to drain quicker than they are designed to and then Poof! Scary stuff.

Sent from my YP-G70 using Tapatalk 2


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## CampingMaster (Oct 25, 2012)

GunnarGG said:


> CampingMaster, you say you will unwrap and measure the batteries when they get depleted.
> If they were in my light I would unwrap and measure them NOW.
> And then when I think they are half depleted again and so on...
> Just to check if they keep their balance.



Following is an update of post #128

*
Both cells / first cell / second cell
*
*My EDC: QP2L-X (new name for Quark X 123²)

-> 5.88 / 2.94 / 2.94 Sept 4-2012 ( Post #113 )

-> 5.74 / 2.87 / 2.87 Sept 13-2012

-> 5.40 / 2.65 / 2.75 Sept 20-2012 DEPLETED replaced with RCR123A

-> 5.60 / 2.80 / 2.80 Sept 22-2012 after 2 days on the shelf


House: Quark X 123² (XM-L T6)

-> 5.92 / 2.96 / 2.96 Sept 4-2012 ( Post #113 )

-> 5.57 / 2.78 / 2.79 Sept 08-2012 these cells are now useless.

-> 6.50 / 3.25 / 3.26 Sept 08-2012 these cells are the fifth pair

-> 5.88 / 2.95 / 2.94 Sept 11-2012 these cells are the fifth pair

-> 6.00 / 3.00 / 3.00 Sept 13-2012 these cells are the fifth pair

-> 5.88 / 2.94 / 2.94 Sept 20-2012 these cells are the fifth pair

-> 5.44 / 2.63 / 2.83 Sept 27-2012 these cells are the fifth pair DEPLETED replaced with RCR123A

-> 5.65 / 2.82 / 2.83 Sept 27-2012 after 30 minutes on the shelf ; these cells are the fifth pair

-> 5.68 / 2.85 / 2.83 Sept 27-2012 after 5:40 hours on the shelf ; these cells are the fifth pair


My wife: Quark X 123² (XM-L T6)

-> 6.04 / 3.02 / 3.02 Sept 4-2012 ( Post #113 )

-> 6.06 / 3.03 / 3.03 Sept 13-2012

-> 5.95 / 2.98 / 2.98 Sept 20-2012

-> 5.72 / 2.86 / 2.86 Sept 30-2012

-> 5.66 / 2.82 / 2.84 Oct 25-2012 after 20 hours on the shelf DEPLETED replaced with RCR123A


Camping: Quark 123² Turbo X (XM-L T6)

-> 6.28 / 3.15 / 3.14** Sept 4-2012 ( Post #113 )*
*
-> 6.08 / 3.04 / 3.04 Sept 13-2012

-> 6.10 / 3.05 / 3.05 Sept 20-2012

-> 6.06 / 3.03 / 3.03 Oct 25-2012 update will be made with this one, I don't use it often at this time.

*
First cell = near the LED

Second cell = near the push button


----------



## sog_sniper (Nov 5, 2012)

Not sure if this would help explain why mixing unprotected cells of different types/capacities explodes. 

All cells have internal resistance, thus if 2 cells are connected in series and one of them have a high internal resistance while the other cell is still capable of delivering so much current (low internal resistance). This would cause the cell with high internal resistance to heat up and if the cell is not protected, chemical reaction will continue until extreme heat causes the cell to burst.


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## daddo1 (Dec 22, 2012)

Re the concern about breathing in the combustion products and should they see their doctor- Yes to both questions. Of course this was several months ago and hopefully they are ok. HF and sulphur oxides like SO2 are very dangerous. Please read the first two threads in this subtopic. If this happens to you - evacuate the premises immediately and call 911. Let the trained professionals make it safe. If you are left with the cleanup after the rooms is vented, etc. use thick acid rated chemical gloves from a safety supply store and don't get any of the residue on you., wash immediately if you do.


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## LightWalker (Dec 23, 2012)

GunnarGG said:


> I don't have a Quark 2x123 myself but doesn't 17670 work?
> That's what I use in my 2x123 lights if I want rechargeables (unless 18650 fits).
> That way I don't have to worry about multi cells problems.
> I still use protected cells.



I use an AW 17670 in my Quark 2x123, it's a little tight but does fit and works well.


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## CampingMaster (Jan 6, 2013)

CampingMaster said:


> Following is an update of post #128
> 
> *
> Both cells / first cell / second cell
> ...


*Update in red from post # 133

**Camping: Quark 123² Turbo X (XM-L T6)

**-> 6.28 / 3.15 / 3.14 Sept 4-2012 ( Post #113 )
*
*-> 6.08 / 3.04 / 3.04 Sept 13-2012

-> 6.10 / 3.05 / 3.05 Sept 20-2012

-> 6.06 / 3.03 / 3.03 Oct 25-2012

-> 6.03 / 3.02 / 3.02 Dec 05-2012

-> 5.64 / 2.83 / 2.81 Jan 06-2013 TOTAL -> 4 MONTHS IN THE SAME FLASHLIGHT USING IT FROM TIME TO TIME.

**CONCLUSION : there is no problem at all with FOURSEVENS cells. The mystery still there, how come my friend had an explosion with his flashlight ! What happened is the ultra rare exception, not the rule.

This thread does'nt reflect the quality of thousand of FOURSEVENS cells and it is sad that certains conditions made it happened to this brand of cells.

INTERESTING NOTE : Many Native Atikamekw from Manawan reserve* told me they tried Energizer, Duracell and others brands and the one which last longer is FOURSEVENS cells... ( this is the only brand that dare to mention on each cell : "1500 mAh" ) then, we continue to buy these cells with great confidence by hundreds for our flashlights - we can have them easily from the Canadian FOURSEVENS Web site at a little bit more than 2$CAD each.

* They are using mostly the Quark Turbo X and Maelstrom S18 and some Quark 123².

I am french speaking... then if you do not understantd this post ask for explanation in different words and I will try to do my best.

Ultimate CampingMaster*


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## DougL (Feb 26, 2013)

Given Helmut.G's comment that,
"Oh and since checking on batteries with a voltmeter or multimeter was mentioned several times, everybody please be aware that
*the resting voltage of a CR123 primary battery doesn't tell you much, if anything.*

It's only true for Li-Ion rechargeable batteries that their voltage correlates to charge condition," and since I don't believe I read anything since which refuted those comments,

How does one safely check two and four CR123 primary batteries being used in a flashlight?
Is there an agreed upon acceptable difference (in tenths or hundreths of volts) between two cells that would still be considered safe to use together?
Is there a consensus as to how often these cells should be checked when in the flashlight?
Does this mean that my edc should now include testing equipment?
Should I not use the box of 100 Rayovac CR123 cells that I bought through Battery Junction last year?
Can anyone point me to a youtube or other online video primer showing beginners a step by step as to how to use a voltmeter, a ZTS battery tester or other recommended testing equipment?


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## välineurheilija (Feb 27, 2013)

I dont know how often you should ckeck the voltage etc.but at least when you check before putting them in to a light if one says 0 volts you know not to put them in


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## välineurheilija (Feb 27, 2013)

And for using a DMM here is some info. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Simple-guide-to-using-a-DMM-for-measurements


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## Overclocker (May 13, 2013)

> It is unthinkable to imagine my friend “unwrapping” his two original cells and then “unwrapping” two new cells with the intent of combining two different cells.



not as unthinkable as you may think. just go watch a few foursevens reviews on youtube and watch them show off their spydercos to unwrap the wrapped pair

that's because most humans are conditioned to treat clear shrink wrap as something you have to peel off

i've even had some friends ask me if they should remove the clear shink wrap over their protected 18650, even if that would obviously spill the guts of the protection PCB. why? because from an early age we were all taught to remove the clear shrink wrap off of batteries

perhaps foursevens should start using a printed outer wrap with the words "do not unwrap". and pls don't make it clear!


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## aus_sparky (May 26, 2013)

Hi,
As I am reasonably new to the LED torch world and lithium batteries, I am finding myself in a position of confusion. I can see by this topic, the hazards of lithium batteries and need to be treated with quite an amount of respect. I recently bought a torch that can run on the 18650's or CR123a (RCR). I would predominantly use 18650's to power my torch, but wanted the option that if my 18650's became flat, could use a couple of CR's. Going back to my confusion issue, I am reading about people having no issues with them at all and then on the other hand read this topic for instance. I was looking at purchasing Panasonic primary cells, but now dubious as none seem to be infallible. I guess I need a little guidance is what I am asking. Is there a guide somewhere to the correct safety and handling techniques or should multiple cells be given a miss.
Thanks, Rob.


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## SilverFox (May 26, 2013)

Hello Rob,

When it comes to batteries nothing is perfect. Keep in mind that you are dealing with stored energy and treat it with respect. Li-Ion chemistry stores more energy per size than NiMh chemistry does, so when things go wrong the consequences and damages are larger.

If you purchase quality batteries you minimize your risk and Panasonic is a quality brand.

Just like with driving a car many people can drive for a long time and never experience an accident, many people can use these batteries and never have a problem. The purpose of this section of the forum is to alert people that sometimes things do go wrong. Also to point out that unlike driving a lack of skill is not a contributing factor but a lack of knowledge can be.

Tom


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## inetdog (May 26, 2013)

Overclocker said:


> that's because most humans are conditioned to treat clear shrink wrap as something you have to peel off



Once had a summer intern in a physics lab take several hundred envelopes of matched four-diode sets from HP for use in building fast sampling A-to-D converters and empty them all into one drawer labelled "Matched Quads".


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## Rexlion (May 26, 2013)

Any energy storage device can sometimes malfunction and go poof. My friend had a common AAA cell blow the lens out of his single-cell twisty light. It's rare, but stuff sometimes happens.


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## aus_sparky (May 27, 2013)

Thanks for the reply Tom, much appreciated.


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## fordmechanic (Jun 28, 2013)

I posted in another topic about my roommate, cheap123s, a org. M6 guardian, and our cabniet. So now we buy only sf batts.........yea kidna expencive but we get them in bulk so their cheaper. Me a mechanic and him a Leo we burn some batteries


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## PA86 (Aug 5, 2013)

*2 CR123s... The straight dope?*

I've read here and there that there is some danger in using multi cell cr123 lights.

Is there validity to these concerns? What's the scoop?

Thanks.


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## rmteo (Aug 5, 2013)

*Re: 2 CR123s... The straight dope?*

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...d-Close-Calls-The-dangerous-side-of-batteries


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## Lighthouse one (Aug 5, 2013)

*Re: 2 CR123s... The straight dope?*

Not the Lithium cr123. When using the rcr123 ( rechargeable ) you must exercise a bit of caution. You should always use 2 batteries that are fresh off the charger..not stick a new one with one that is somewhat discharged already. This applies to any size li-on battery. On extremely rare cases a fresh battery and a near depleted one can cause an overheating condition. When charging, don't leave them sitting in the charger for long periods after they are complete. I charge mine in an old cake pan. 

Don't be afraid of them...they are great batteries. Lots of energy for the size.


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## rmteo (Aug 5, 2013)

*Re: 2 CR123s... The straight dope?*



Lighthouse one said:


> Not the Lithium cr123.


?????? http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?330044-Dangerous-explosion-with-2-CR123A-primary


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## StarHalo (Aug 5, 2013)

*Re: 2 CR123s... The straight dope?*

Yes, cheap primary 123s have proven themselves to be more dangerous than their li-ion counterparts. Make sure you're buying quality name brand cells, and use a multimeter to pair them by nearest voltage for best runtime.


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