# Has any here hit the 50,000 hour led life span?



## Rasto36620 (Apr 13, 2012)

Id like to see if reaching that number before you buy another light due to better technology or what ever the case may be is likely.


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## shelm (Apr 13, 2012)

Rasto36620 said:


> Has any here hit the 50,000 hour led life span?


no


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## spc smith (Apr 13, 2012)

Rasto36620,

The only thing that's really going to blow the newer LED's is the incorrect use of batteries not suitable for a particular lights voltage. Otherwise general day to day every day carry usage (Not weapon recoil for some lights) and proper battery application will provide you an LED light for a long time to use for 10-20 years if not more=)


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## AnAppleSnail (Apr 13, 2012)

Rasto36620 said:


> Id like to see if reaching that number before you buy another light due to better technology or what ever the case may be is likely.



It seems unlikely. 2000 consecutive 24-hour days of use, or 5.7 years solid. At rated current. Most people are not interested in such tests. And that isn't the life-span. LEDs are rated to 70% brightness loss. So at (xthousand) hours the LED is 30% dimmer.


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## PhotonBoy (Apr 13, 2012)

I think that white LEDs are rated for 50,000 hours down to 50% brightness. They should continue to work after that time, but at still ever decreasing brightness. So at 100,000 hours, you're looking at 25% brightness.


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## edpmis02 (Apr 13, 2012)

I worry about how many on/off cycles clicky switches will take.


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## PhotonBoy (Apr 13, 2012)

Yeah, the light will likely die of mechanical failure, or you'll lose it, or most likely, you just want to give it away and get something newer, trendier, brighter, etc. An LED failure is probably last on the list of problems that will do your light in.


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## AnAppleSnail (Apr 13, 2012)

edpmis02 said:


> I worry about how many on/off cycles clicky switches will take.


The clicky is probably the first flashlight part that will fail (Not counting the battery), but I don't know of a good standardized test that has been done to compare failure rates of the systems in a light. Arguing from first principles and barring unusual events, you'll lose:

Clicky switch
O-rings
Contact points
Capacitors
Solder joints

Long before the LED dims from age.


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## parnass (Apr 13, 2012)

The LEDs in a few of my Inova X5 flashlights failed within a month or so. I suspect that the 55-lumen rating implies that they were being overdriven. The replacement version X5 was rated for a maximum of 31 lumens.

I have had several LED night lights which grew dim in less than 2 years use.


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## ledmitter (Apr 13, 2012)

PhotonBoy said:


> I think that white LEDs are rated for 50,000 hours down to 50% brightness. They should continue to work after that time, but at still ever decreasing brightness. So at 100,000 hours, you're looking at 25% brightness.



I wonder what the CREE XML's lumen deterioration rating is after just 1,000 hours. These LED's are being driven pretty hard in many of these lights with questionable heat sinking compared to what they using in the lab.


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## TEEJ (Apr 13, 2012)

Hold on a little longer, I'm working on it as fast as I can....

:devil:


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## Kestrel (Apr 13, 2012)

Some of the older hands here might recall reports of the LuxV exhibiting a visible decrease in brightness after as little as 500 hours of use. Apparently those were driven hard enough to get _*HOT*_ in some lights.

Edit: And if anyone expects 50,000 hours of runtime from LEDs at 'CPF' drive levels, I have a 500,000 hours MTBF (i.e. 57 years) hard drive to sell them.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Apr 13, 2012)

50,000 hours = 5.7 years continuous under-driven lifetime ?

-someone- has done this...speak up !!!


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## CarpentryHero (Apr 13, 2012)

I get bored or my flashlights as soon as a new emitter shows lol. 
The only led that gets around the clock use is the glow mode on my PALight and I've only had them a month  
Sorry I'm not more help


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## TEEJ (Apr 13, 2012)

Kestrel said:


> Some of the older hands here might recall reports of the LuxV exhibiting a visible decrease in brightness after as little as 500 hours of use. Apparently those were driven hard enough to get _*HOT*_ in some lights.
> 
> Edit: And if anyone expects 50,000 hours of runtime from LEDs at 'CPF' drive levels, I have a 500,000 hours MTBF (i.e. 57 years) hard drive to sell them.



Those 500,000 MTBF hard drives are amazing too, the sales department for the Brooklyn Bridge used them exclusively.


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## eh4 (Apr 13, 2012)

In later years after the led house lighting is old news we'll have more examples of 50,000+ hr led performance... As much as I run my H51Fc at low and medium I'm more concerned with the 200,000 cycle rating on the switch. Also, I imagine that under driven leds will go much further than 50,000 hrs before 30	percent decline, surely it has more to do w temp and quantities of electrons and less to do w time.


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## Slumber (Apr 13, 2012)

A member here ran his SC60w for like 6 months straight. He had 5000 hours I think. I don't think it was a full brightness, but it's still a lot of use.


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## StarHalo (Apr 13, 2012)

I have a set of Ikea Dioder light strips (which use power LEDs) that currently have just over 8,000 hours of runtime on them; no issues thus far. I also have ten cheapie Feit LED night lights which use 5mm LEDs and have run somewhere over 15,000 hours, no change in those either.


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## entercpf (Apr 13, 2012)

I want to see some solid numbers too, not extrapolated crap number guessing. As mentioned before hard drives have 0.5-1 million hours MTBF, are we expecting a 1 million hours life? ofcourse not.

I never liked the idea of making the led module not replaceable.


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## AnAppleSnail (Apr 13, 2012)

entercpf said:


> I never liked the idea of making the led module not replaceable.


For upgrades, sure; but not for the LED running out under normal use.


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## ledmitter (Apr 13, 2012)

*How long is 50,000 hours?*

There are 8,760 hours in a year, so here's what 50,000 hours works out to be, depending on lamp hours of operation.

Hours of Operation:

24 hours a day 5.7 years
18 hours per day 7.6 years
12 hours per day 11.4 years
8 hours per day 17.1 years

*Why is the life span of an LED measured as lumen depreciation?*

The life span of an LED is vastly longer than that of incandescent, fluorescent or HID lamp sources, generally lasting 50,000 hours or longer. Although the LED never really burns out, product life span is measured by lumen depreciation.

The Illuminating Engineering Society's (IES) current standard for calculating the life of an LED as the point at which the LED reaches 30 percent lumen depreciation.

Remember, a 100,000-hour rating is not equivalent to lamp life rating. LED life is rated where it has reached 30 percent lumen depreciation. At 100,000 hours an LED would still be operating, but at a decreased lumen output.

*What is junction temperature?*

Junction temperature is the temperature at the point where an individual diode connects to its base. Maintaining a low junction temperature increases output and slows LED lumen depreciation. Maintaining a low junction temperature is critical for evaluating an LED product's quality and ability to deliver long life.

*What can affect the LED junction temperature?*

There are three things which can affect the junction temperature of LED’s: drive current, thermal path and ambient temperature. In general, the higher the drive current, the greater the heat generated at the junction. Heat must be moved away from the junction in order to maintain expected light output, lifespan and color. The amount of heat that can be removed depends upon the ambient temperature and the design of the thermal path from the junction to the surroundings. Typically the junction temperature should be maintained below 120°C.


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## ledmitter (Apr 13, 2012)

Lumen depreciation in LEDs varies depending on package and system design. The primary cause of lumen depreciation is heat generated at the LED junction. LEDs do not emit heat as infrared radiation (IR) like other light sources, so the heat must be removed from the device by conduction or convection. If the LED system design has inadequate heat sinking or other means of removing the heat, the device temperature will rise, resulting in lower light output. Clouding of the epoxy encapsulant used to cover some LED chips also results in decreased lumens making it out of the device. Newer high-power LED devices use silicone as an encapsulant, which prevents this problem. LEDs continue to operate even after their light output has decreased to very low levels. This becomes the important factor in determining the effective useful life of the LED.


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## yifu (Apr 14, 2012)

ledmitter said:


> I wonder what the CREE XML's lumen deterioration rating is after just 1,000 hours. These LED's are being driven pretty hard in many of these lights with questionable heat sinking compared to what they using in the lab.


That's easy, the lumen maintainence results are here http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/C...Lamp/XLamp Application Notes/LM80_Results.pdf After 6000 hours of driving an XML at 2A and at 85 degrees celsius, the LED maintained 97.2% of its output. Not bad.

And one more thing, unlike other light sources with catastrophic end of life events like incans (burn out), mercury arc (unsustainable loss of arc gap length), LEDs will not blow out after 50 000 hours, but rather loss 30% of initial output. This extrapolated lifetime would is usually done at half the maximum drive current (750mA for XPGS, 1.5A for XMLs) so the L70 lifetime would increase if the LED is driven less, or decrease if overdriven.


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## StarHalo (Apr 14, 2012)

yifu said:


> the LED maintained 97.2% of its output.



That's not nearly enough to tell the difference by the eye in a direct side-by-side comparison with a brand new copy - insanely good; not only can you pass your flashlight to your grandkids, but it'll still be just as bright..


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## ledmitter (Apr 14, 2012)

yifu said:


> That's easy, the lumen maintainence results are here http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED%20Components%20and%20Modules/XLamp/XLamp%20Application%20Notes/LM80_Results.pdf After 6000 hours of driving an XML at 2A and at 85 degrees celsius, the LED maintained 97.2% of its output. Not bad.
> 
> And one more thing, unlike other light sources with catastrophic end of life events like incans (burn out), mercury arc (total loss of arcs), LEDs will not blow out after 50 000 hours, but rather loss 30% of initial output. This extrapolated lifetime would is usually done at half the maximum drive current (750mA for XPGS, 1.5A for XMLs) so the L70 lifetime would increase if the LED is driven less, or decrease if overdriven.



Nice catch. Thanks for that. Super interesting reading.

An XML being driven at 2A would be approx how many lumens? Any conversion numbers come to mind Yifu?

I've always thought the 700+ lumen XML's where being driven upwards of 3A. Guess i'm wrong.


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## yifu (Apr 14, 2012)

ledmitter said:


> Nice catch. Thanks for that. Super interesting reading.
> 
> An XML being driven at 2A would be approx how many lumens? Any conversion numbers come to mind Yifu?
> 
> I've always thought the 700+ lumen XML's where being driven upwards of 3A. Guess i'm wrong.


Sure no problem, from Cree's lab results here http://pct.cree.com/ A XML of the U2 bin at 2A produces a typical 741.6 lumens, with a 7% variance either way. So the OTF lumens should be at least 500 lumens. The 700+ lumens XMLs are normally driven at past 2.8A, although the XML LED can be expected to output 1200 LED lumens at 4.2A, not very efficient at that current though.

That's the reason i find it funny when people try to avoid running their lights on high for fear of loss of output. The loss after a heck of a long time is really, negligible, provided you've got a reasonable heatsinking solution, which most good lights have anyway.

The tests on overdriving XMLs are here. The heatsink used is not very good, so the outputs could be potentially 200 lumens higher, as verified by some CPF members. It's the T6 bin BTW.


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## luceat lux vestra (Apr 14, 2012)

Hold that thought............... I get back to you in about 5.7 years......................................................................................................

:devil::devil:

{sorry}


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## Glock27 (Apr 15, 2012)

My SC60w has now been "On" for 443 days. Mostly on Low1, but hundreds of hours on High. 10,600+ hours. Still can't tell difference on white wall between others in same batch.

G27


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Apr 15, 2012)

Not sure if it counts but my wife has a Sony clock radio with red LED light bars making up the numbers. She has had this light for close to twenty years and short of maybe times during a move it has been plugged in the whole time. The LEDs appear pretty dim to me at times but they are still running.

LEDs are semiconductors. Their true failure rate should be no more or less than any other semiconductor diode, transistor or IC circuit. People have LED power indicators on items all throughout their homes and they just keep working year after year after year.


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## Echo63 (Apr 15, 2012)

Kestrel said:


> Some of the older hands here might recall reports of the LuxV exhibiting a visible decrease in brightness after as little as 500 hours of use. Apparently those were driven hard enough to get _*HOT*_ in some lights.
> 
> Edit: And if anyone expects 50,000 hours of runtime from LEDs at 'CPF' drive levels, I have a 500,000 hours MTBF (i.e. 57 years) hard drive to sell them.



I had a lux V in an L4 die after maybe 400 hours of use
It got pretty hot though, and i think one of the screws holding the heatsink to the head was loose - which halved the transfer capacity of the thermal path from the led to the outside world (maybe more)

I think a mehanical failure is more likely than a led that has reached the end of its life
(i believe my failure in the l4 was heat related caused by a mechanical failure)
And i dont think Leds will reach their rated lifespan at CPF type drive levels - maybe in things like the LL malkoffs


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## Jash (Apr 16, 2012)

I've noticed that once my lights turn around 18 months they get gifted to non-flahsaholics and something new comes in the mail.

Don't ever plan on reaching more than a couple of hundred hours with any given light.


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## LEDninja (Apr 16, 2012)

I had an LED light bulb die on me after 1 year 10 months 24/7. That is 15,000 hours. I suspect capacitor failure instead of the LED though.


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## Kestrel (Apr 16, 2012)

The LED dimming behavior most often observed here is that our current lights suddenly get dimmer when the 'new one' arrives in the mail, lol.


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## rickypanecatyl (Apr 16, 2012)

So many led lights I have none last as long as an incandecent mag light. Something always breaks - probably not the LED but your pretty lucky to get 200 hours out of most LED lights you don't lose.

HID's are much worse. In the off road motorcycle world many companies selling HID's talk about how on rough, dirt roads HID's are so much more reliable as there is no filament to break. So many of those lights break in a few miles, most of them can't stand up to any level of abuse. But of course its something else that broke - say the ballast.

My point, it's just stupid to say (unless your a deceptive sales person) a LED or HID will last X times longer when some vital part of the equation will only last 1/2 as long at best.


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## Illum (Apr 16, 2012)

AnAppleSnail said:


> It seems unlikely. 2000 consecutive 24-hour days of use, or 5.7 years solid. At rated current. Most people are not interested in such tests. And that isn't the life-span. LEDs are rated to 70% brightness loss. So at (xthousand) hours the LED is 30% dimmer.



The farthest I have gone was a string of CREE XREs in an semioutdoor setting and ran for almost three years 24/7... They have died as a resultant of exposure and corrosion as opposed to other things, it is difficult to know what decrease in intensity acually occurred and what decreases are from the deterioration of the jelly dome


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## HighlanderNorth (Apr 16, 2012)

Rasto36620 said:


> Id like to see if reaching that number before you buy another light due to better technology or what ever the case may be is likely.




I'd be totally shocked if I found someone who has put 50,000 hours on their flashlight........before losing it! 50,000 hours is a LONG time! Thats about 6 straight years of constant on........365 days per year, 24 hours a day.

Even if you only used the light for 4 hours per night, and had it on constantly for those 4 hours, for 365 days per year, it would still take you 36 years to hit 50,000 hours!


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## JWP_EE (Apr 17, 2012)

I have a CREE P4 Star mounted on a 5" X 5" aluminum plate running at 2W used to light my computer area. It has about 30,000 hours on it and still going strong.


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## bbb74 (Apr 17, 2012)

Are electrolytic capacitors used in most of these regulated led lights?

They seem to be rated up to about 2000 hours of life. As they age their ESR goes up too.

Wouldn't this limit our lights to a much lower lifespan?


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## KENNY LEE (Apr 17, 2012)

It's too long...


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## HighlanderNorth (Apr 17, 2012)

JWP_EE said:


> I have a CREE P4 Star mounted on a 5" X 5" aluminum plate running at 2W used to light my computer area. It has about 30,000 hours on it and still going strong.



When did that P4 Star first come out? Does it give good brightness at 2W?


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## JWP_EE (Apr 18, 2012)

I bought it in DEC 2007 but it was out before then. I am running it at 600ma. At that current the curve says 60 lm/W, so the output is about 120lm.


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## AnAppleSnail (Apr 18, 2012)

bbb74 said:


> Are electrolytic capacitors used in most of these regulated led lights?
> 
> They seem to be rated up to about 2000 hours of life. As they age their ESR goes up too.



Yes. This is one of the reasons quality lights meant to last a long time are more expensive. You know, before the cheap capacitors started being used, computer PSUs just didn't break without being subjected to personal lightning storms. Nowadays, well. I have to admit I haven't blown capacitors on any lights before I rebuilt them anyway.


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## JNewell (Apr 18, 2012)

Example from real life: SureFire L4 (KX4 bezel, IIRC).



Kestrel said:


> Some of the older hands here might recall reports of the LuxV exhibiting a visible decrease in brightness after as little as 500 hours of use. Apparently those were driven hard enough to get _*HOT*_ in some lights.
> 
> Edit: And if anyone expects 50,000 hours of runtime from LEDs at 'CPF' drive levels, I have a 500,000 hours MTBF (i.e. 57 years) hard drive to sell them.


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## Sub_Umbra (Apr 19, 2012)

I have some LEDs on a fan controller in a computer I built that have been powered up virtually 24/7 for *over ten years.* I suspect that I have dimmed more than they have...


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## Forgetful (Apr 19, 2012)

my aimpoint has been on for the last 3.5 years. not even close to dying.


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## StarHalo (Apr 19, 2012)

Sub_Umbra said:


> I have some LEDs on a fan controller in a computer I built



Power or 5mm?

I've been pondering over this for some time now; that if you take into account the longevity of non-power LEDs, you're going to find several examples in every household that have been on for a very long time. Consider the LEDs on your surge protector that have been on nonstop since you plugged it in, or the indicators on your cordless phones, or your television equipment, your computer equipment, etc. Even a cursory glance around your house will turn up a number of indicator LEDs that have many thousands of hours of runtime on them..


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## Sub_Umbra (Apr 19, 2012)

5mm - blue. They were very bright when new and they still put out quite a bit.


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## Justintoxicated (Apr 19, 2012)

I think I'm getting close on the Royal Blue Luxeon III's inside my computer case.


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## DJSPEC (Apr 20, 2012)

50,000 hours will come after the end of the world... until then i will be buying the next coolest and brightest LED out there... that i can afford.


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## edpmis02 (Apr 20, 2012)

I had an red LED alarm clock last for 30 years! 1978-2008.


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## Hitthespot (Apr 20, 2012)

Kestrel said:


> The LED dimming behavior most often observed here is that our current lights suddenly get dimmer when the 'new one' arrives in the mail, lol.



That really made me laugh. Ain't the truth, ain't it the truth....


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## StevenLVNV (Jun 24, 2014)

Many people have the new LED outdoor coach lights on their houses here in Las Vegas. I have them, underneath there is multiple neutral white , looks like cree xpg leds and they are mounted to white aluminum blocks for the heatsink. Mine are wired to an electric eye so they turn on before dusk and off at dawn so they run for hours at a time at a really bright level night after night, they are also not covered at all, they hand upside down in the light fixture but i can touch them if i want to and so they are exposed to as low at 17 degrees this winter and 112 or so in the summer and direct sunlight. I am curious how long they will last before the leds fail.


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## kj2 (Jun 24, 2014)

Cree leds are rated at 50.000hours. But that's just a rating. No one, I know of, ever tested it if it reaches 50.000


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## importculture (Jun 25, 2014)

JNewell said:


> Example from real life: SureFire L4 (KX4 bezel, IIRC).


+1 I have a box of dead l4s somewhere as well as some working ones. But those l4s get almost hot enough to burn you after a few minutes. Great flood beam but the output is soo dated now. It's interesting to see how far we've progressed. I also have an old Felix that's been used every night since I bought it. Don't know how old it is but I have it hanging over the bed and use it as a night light on low and bump it up to medium for reading. I use it to fully drain my primaries taken from my work lights. I'll have to find and pull out an unused Felix from the same batch to compare brightness but I don't think it's necessary cause the turbo output is still comparable to my newer lights. Probably cause it hasn't seen much time on high or turbo. On the other hand I did have an original zebralight cr123 the very first model they put an electronic switch into that was nearly at half brightness on high when I gave it to a police officer a few years ago. I had it clipped to my work shirt pocket and surprisingly he thought it was one of the smallest brightest lights he had ever seen. It was a good excuse to start using a newer aa zebralight. That zebralight saw heavy use on high and got pretty warm at times. So probably just outlived its useful life


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## importculture (Jun 25, 2014)

StarHalo said:


> Power or 5mm?
> 
> I've been pondering over this for some time now; that if you take into account the longevity of non-power LEDs, you're going to find several examples in every household that have been on for a very long time. Consider the LEDs on your surge protector that have been on nonstop since you plugged it in, or the indicators on your cordless phones, or your television equipment, your computer equipment, etc. Even a cursory glance around your house will turn up a number of indicator LEDs that have many thousands of hours of runtime on them..



Never really though about that! Good job for pointing that out! Now that I think about it I have a ton of things running LEDs nonstop for years on end. I guess it's all about how hard they're driven. I don't think any of my surge protector indicators have dimmed. Some of those are nearing 15 years or older. Ha ha! I think it may be time to upgrade those! Thanks for reminding me and possibly avoiding a possible fire hazard. Thanks again!


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## thedoc007 (Jun 25, 2014)

importculture said:


> I don't think any of my surge protector indicators have dimmed. Some of those are nearing 15 years or older. Ha ha! I think it may be time to upgrade those.



If your surge protectors are fifteen years old, it is definitely time to replace them, regardless of the LED status.

Excerpted from dansdata.com:

"The technical side is simple enough. No ordinary cheap powerboard ("cheap" definitely includes "a hundred US bucks") actually provides very good protection from line current gremlins. It may protect you once from a big-ish spike, or several times from smaller ones, but it won't last forever. 

Cheap surge filters are all based around components called Metal-Oxide Varistors (MOVs). MOVs pass current only when the voltage across them is above a set value, and they react to overcurrent in microseconds. A circuit breaker or fuse can take tens of milliseconds to trip or blow; that's much too slow for spike suppression. Unfortunately, MOVs will only work a few times, at best. The more work they have to do, the closer to death they come. A surge/spike powerboard with a toasted MOV is now... just a powerboard.


Better surge/spike boards are meant to tell you when their MOV's died via a little light or even a buzzer, but they commonly, actually, don't. A surge/spike filter that's been in use for some years and still reports its MOV as perfectly healthy is, probably, lying."


Sorry for being a little off topic, but I thought it was worth sharing.


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## Glock27 (Jun 26, 2014)

I have ran an SC60w now for 31,000 Hours! Most of them have been on L1 or L2, but I have had at lest a 1,000 hours on H1 or H2. It has been our "Pool light" the last 3 years, and edc'd every day. It's on it's third O-ring.
I can't tell any difference in brightness from new ones ( I have 3 others).

G27


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jun 27, 2014)

Glock27 said:


> I have ran an SC60w now for 31,000 Hours! Most of them have been on L1 or L2, but I have had at lest a 1,000 hours on H1 or H2. It has been our "Pool light" the last 3 years, and edc'd every day. It's on it's third O-ring.
> I can't tell any difference in brightness from new ones ( I have 3 others).



My guess is that if you run a LED on low, then it will last _much_ longer than its rated lifetime. My [completely uninformed] opinion is that without heat or much current, there's no stress on the LED or phosphors.


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