# Self Defense with Flashlights



## Bob96 (Apr 8, 2010)

I flashlight is certainly not a self defense item. I am not referring to those with Strike Bezels but just a very bright light. To distract an attacker so you might get away from the area which is better - a bright steady beam into the eyes - or a strobe? Which option might distract the person for the longest time? I was thinking that a strobe might distract them more but a steady beam might contract the pupils more taking a longer recovery period?


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## Chevy-SS (Apr 8, 2010)

I predict this thread will be closed before anyone has time to activate a strobe.  There are many threads like this already..................


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## alpg88 (Apr 8, 2010)

no, strobes wont deter persistent attacker, strike bezels too.

OTOH 6d mag can come in handy , without even turning it on
also any light mounted to a gun is en excellent self defence tool


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## Lighthouse one (Apr 8, 2010)

Strobe indoors in very dark room...outdoors- just a bright light with a tight spot. Sometimes bad guys think you might be police...for a second or two.


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## Ronin28 (Apr 8, 2010)

Lighthouse one said:


> Strobe indoors in very dark room...outdoors- just a bright light with a tight spot. Sometimes bad guys think you might be police...for a second or two.



Every second counts in a self-defense situation. Take the Fenix TA20 or TA21. Both are rated at 225 lumens and the strobe is rated at 230 if I'm not mistaken. If you are in a dark area and some perp starts towards you (with the intent to rob, hurt, mame, or kill) their eyes will be adapted to the dark. Therefore if you take your bright light and shine it in their eyes, they will be temporarily disoriented, add the same brightness with the strobe effect, that disorientation may last slightly longer, and I do mean slightly...milliseconds...yet that may be enough time for you to either book it, or to take the perp down before he has a chance to take you down. 

I'm sure there are some on here that would say I am full of it and don't know what I am talking about...but consider this, that same situation I stated above, the perp is temporarily blinded/disoriented, that gives you more than enough time to bring out your mace or taser and spray/zap the perp, which gives you enough time to get the hell out of dodge. 

Realistically in a self-defense type of situation where some perp is intent on robbing/assaulting/murdering you, you are placed in a "life or death" situation. You don't have time to call the Police, you cannot run for it, you have to act. A bright light may be your saving grace and may give you life saving milliseconds to react to the threat at hand. 

Just my $0.02


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## gcbryan (Apr 8, 2010)

Forget about the light and running will give you a few millisec's more to get away.

How many people are attacked when it's pitch black? Where is that...in the countryside?


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## Alex K. (Apr 8, 2010)

I don't know about a Strike Bezel, but a 28'' Kel-Lite Batonlite is a good option also...


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## Kid9P (Apr 8, 2010)

A simple search of "Self Defense" on CPF brought up all these threads 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/181968

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/217907

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/128295

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/114365


And there are MANY more


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## Larbo (Apr 8, 2010)

Seems like alot of guessing about if 200+ lumens would be an asset if flashed into someones dark adjusted eyes. I cant see (no pun) how it cant give you some time if only a few seconds (how much time do do need?) to attack or run away. At the very least if your light is on and your moving around side to side I would think he cant zero in to grab or hit you.
Any rate I keep one in my hands ready to flash then hit if needed followed by a size 11 to the face.


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## Ian2381 (Apr 8, 2010)

Lighthouse one said:


> Strobe indoors in very dark room...outdoors- just a bright light with a tight spot. Sometimes bad guys think you might be police...for a second or two.



+1 Bad guys might think of you as a police and just backoff but other wise just run.:wave:


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## pilote (Apr 8, 2010)

i have used a standard 80 lumen g2 on dogs and they have backed off...prob won't work on a trained dog or a determined pit bull, but i think in most cases an animal will back off...


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## Databyter (Apr 8, 2010)

I carry several (cough) lights with me on patrol (private). Recently I've been patrolling a large business park which is under remodeling/re-construction. The whole place is fenced off but there is alot of equipment left overnight. They hired us when they had some problems with people hopping the fence at night.

For most of it I use my patrol vehicle that is fitted with a standard light bar with Alleys and such (my TK-40 is better than any spot on the car stock), but when I have to get out and go through some skinny spaces to the rear perimeter I take my Mag623, mostly because on flood it takes a nice picture to document a large rear area.

However it hasn't escaped my thoughts as I go into these rear areas and alleys that it would be very difficult to attack someone with such a bright torch (over 4K lumens, on a cool night you can feel the heat from 5 feet away). It would be a blind attack for sure.

And I have alot of other toys on my belt that I can whip out as the blinded assailant swings wildly.

It's not a good plan of defense on purpose, but if you happen to have one of these beauties on you, and someone does attack you in a dark alley, I say WTH, light em up.

For general purposes though you would be better off with pepper spray for real defense of a real attack (train to use the pepper and the light simultaneously, I do), but for those times that someone stepps out near you in the dark and you don't KNOW what the intent is and wouldn't spray a possible innocent, a good bright light in the face is a great way to say "You're in my personal space, what are your intentions!" (I wouldn't use the 623 for this though, It's just too bright to use to see what's going on with someone who, chances are is not going to be a problem. They would have to be real scary). I'd use a backup belt light (P1D over-driven slightly).

Remember you are liable for any damage you cause another individual that is not justified, and not just physical.

I have had several people spring out of the darkness at me and I invariably light them up. I don't know if it would stop an attack, but it sure stopped everyone I've ever done it to on the job, whatever their intent was. The lights used were all under 250 lumens IIRC.

The reaction is arms and hands blocking the beam and a cessation of forward movement (usually accompanied by "Hey don't shine that in my face"). If they were crazy, on drugs, or just out to get me I doubt it would stop them, but it would make their attack less precise, and more entertaining.

A scene from Crocodile Dundee comes to mind as I wrote this thread, modified slightly for the M*g623, "A flashlight?, THIS is a flashlight!".

A police officer saw my 623 beam the other night when I saw them trying to illuminate a canyon it was like a pinprick floating over a sea of dark. I fired my 623 down into the canyon which lit up even the hillside on the other end. The officer next to me just said "Holy Crap!!" I was almost embarrassed at how effective it was. It's seems inappropriate to have something so bright in such a small package..NOT!!

More practically something like the TK-40, even on lower levels is a great choice for those who work at night to stop someone in their tracks for it's large diameter modified spot type beam. Smaller belt lights are effective as well (especially if that's all you have with you at the time), but less so. And you have to be more precise with the beam that starts out the size of a magic marker. 
 A larger reflector such as most Mag-Mods and larger head lights like the TK-40 have a wider beam even on spot, and more effective spill. *This is really important and not talked about at all that I have seen!* They are much easier and much more effective in practice, especially with several individuals. You can "paint" them more effectively to keep them at a disadvantage less obviously as with a small head light (just innocently flick the light back and forth quickly as you talk). Usually a group will just look away or down as you talk to them. The larger head lights usually make better defensive blunt weapons also if it comes to that. I realize this is different for the average person who isn't uniformed and/or on private property, but some of the same techniques and rules still apply.


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## ResQTech (Apr 8, 2010)

There are some examples here of how "blinding" some common flashlights (Surefire, Nitecore, Eagletac, Fenix) can be: http://www.pinnacleflashlights.com/blog/2010/02/10/self-defense/

It's generally been ill-advised to use a flashlight's lumens or strobe feature as a primary method of self-defense however!


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## jp2515 (Apr 8, 2010)

Selfe Defense, Strike Bezels, Strobe....I predict this thread will end with a lock


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## sfca (Apr 8, 2010)

It's really hard to get the hotspot into someone's eyes, especially if it's a small one. But those are the ones you need to cause someone to turn away.
So for a pocket-able light you either got a choice of floody, but not too bright with ambient light; or throwy but not very easy to hit right in the eyes. 
Even with the spill illuminating the face it may not be very effective.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 8, 2010)

You people'll look for any excuse to get a new torch.

If you really think it's going to work why not try an experiment - have your wife try to attack you while you use the light coming out the end of your torch to fend her off. Tell her you'll give her a chocolate for every hit she gets in on you, that should give her at least the same determination as an attacker.

See how she goes in the face of that awfully dangerous, nasty, terror inducing beam of light that comes out of the end of your torch when there's chocolates at stake...... 

A torch light may indeed scare off a burglar or thief who's interuppted in the middle of trying to sneak around somewhere he should not be and wants not to be discovered but you blokes are kidding yourselves if you think it will ward off someone who actually wants to attack you. In that circumstance you should not be concentrating on where you flash your little beam of brightness, you should be concentrating on your situation.


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## computernut (Apr 8, 2010)

I don't have experience in a real-world situation but I've hit my coworkers in the face by surprise with 60-120 lumens in office lighting and they stop dead in their tracks, look away and go "holy cr*p!". I would imagine in a dark environment an attacker that didn't know you had a bright light would be surprised enough to give you an advantage. I like having a dimmer light for navigation and then a thrower light for spotlighting things.


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## Chauncey Gardner (Apr 8, 2010)

This thread is full of funny.


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## Hack On Wheels (Apr 8, 2010)

I'd say it would depend on their intent, determination, and experience more than your light's lux. You would likely have them seeing spots, but that won't physically stop them although it might reduce their accuracy.

JaguarDave-in-Oz, I'll have to stock up on some chocolates and give that a try!


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## victory (Apr 9, 2010)

Bob96 said:


> I flashlight is certainly not a self defense item. I am not referring to those with Strike Bezels but just a very bright light. To distract an attacker so you might get away from the area which is better - a bright steady beam into the eyes - or a strobe? Which option might distract the person for the longest time? I was thinking that a strobe might distract them more but a steady beam might contract the pupils more taking a longer recovery period?


 
That's simply not how it works. If you expect that the flashlight will stun an attacker giving you the opportunity to escape then you are deluding yourself. An unexpected bright flash of light might trip your attackers OODA loop giving you a some tenths of a second to take control of the situation either verbally or with violence, but it's hardly going to leave them dazed. It is for that reason it is best used to precede aggression rather than a retreat. After all, the worst time to find out you're not as fast as your attacker is when he's jumped on your back and you're out of breath.

Depending on specific circumstances, you may, for instance, lead off with light in the eyes and strongly worded verbal commands which could diffuse an escalating situation. It could also precede a bezel strike or any number of options. As i said, depends on the circumstances.

As for strobe or steady beam. A strobe is more disorienting, some moreso than others depending on the frequency. However, it's really gonna depend on your lights UI as to what's immediately available. If you have to cycle through 28 other settings, it's useless. In the end, it really doesn't matter so long as you do your part.

I recommend you get some training and not rely on your light as a primary means of self-defense. It's merely a tool which can be used to aid you in defending yourself. Distraction, intimidation, as a fist load, whatever, it's still not going to accomplish any of those things on its own. *Your mindset, tactics, and techniques will dictate the outcome of a violent encounter moreso than your equipment.*


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## Roger999 (Apr 9, 2010)

computernut said:


> I don't have experience in a real-world situation but I've hit my coworkers in the face by surprise with 60-120 lumens in office lighting and they stop dead in their tracks, look away and go "holy cr*p!". I would imagine in a dark environment an attacker that didn't know you had a bright light would be surprised enough to give you an advantage. I like having a dimmer light for navigation and then a thrower light for spotlighting things.


Light isn't a very big deterrent when the adrenaline is flowing through your system or the perp is filled with so many drugs that they can't feel a thing.

You could always use the flashlight to light your path when running away or throw the actual flashlight at the person .


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## kaichu dento (Apr 9, 2010)

Databyter, thanks for an excellent post, and I wish everyone else would read it too instead of just posting.

All you guys who think it'll help you, practice what you'll do next. The ones who think it's no good, do something else.

There, that should about cover it with a solution for all.


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## defloyd77 (Apr 9, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> If you really think it's going to work why not try an experiment - have your wife try to attack you while you use the light coming out the end of your torch to fend her off. Tell her you'll give her a chocolate for every hit she gets in on you, that should give her at least the same determination as an attacker.
> 
> See how she goes in the face of that awfully dangerous, nasty, terror inducing beam of light that comes out of the end of your torch when there's chocolates at stake......



https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2983264&postcount=46 

Seriously, does adrenaline, drugs or whatever magically make your night indestructable? Are you telling me that when a druggy gets flashed by a bright light they can instantly see again unlike anyone else? Does being determined to mug someone give your eyeballs Transitions lenses that automatically darken when exposed to light?

Other things worth mentioning is 1, you are getting somewhat of a description of the person when you light them up, 2, it tells the badguy "III seeee yooouuu" and 3, especially with strobe, if there's anyone else around that may be able to help in any way, I'm pretty damn sure it'll get their attention.


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## easilyled (Apr 9, 2010)

The best self-defense purpose for flashlights is to light up the path in front of you so that you can see where you're running away to!

Other than that you can always lug the 2kg Olight SR90 around with you just on the off-chance that you happen to be attacked one day.

Its output of 2200 well-focused lumens is certainly bright enough to disorientate an attacker providing that they don't make contact with you before the five minutes it will take you to remove it from your shoulder, turn it on to blind them and then whack them over the head. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, please note that the above was obviously written tongue in cheek.

For those that do know how to defend themselves, they will be able to find far more effective tools or methods to employ than a flashlight.

For those that don't know how to defend themselves, a flashlight will be useless and if it has an attack bezel, it will probably be grabbed by the assailant and used on you.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 9, 2010)

defloyd77 said:


> Seriously, does adrenaline, drugs or whatever magically make your night indestructable? Are you telling me that when a druggy gets flashed by a bright light they can instantly see again unlike anyone else? Does being determined to mug someone give your eyeballs Transitions lenses that automatically darken when exposed to light?


Yes, seriously, and one doesn't need drugs. Try it sometime yourself but be committed about it, don't act weak.

One of these threads came up before and I tried an experiment. I gave a family member my Quark 123-2 Turbo set on maximum brightness with instructions to shine it directly into my eyes while I attempted an attack.

Guess what - I, the attacker won. I came forward to the light, brushed aside the arm that holds the torch (crikey, it does make it's whereabouts rather obvious) and that left the defender quite open and with one hand basically unusable because it's busy trying to stick a light in my eyes or stop me from grabbing it.

Sure, once I've brushed aside the torch it leaves blue spots in the forefront of my vision but that doesn't stop me seeing, it's just a little blue spot and I can look right through it if I want. The ambient light from the torch in your hand acutally helps me do that. Try it yourself, do it in a practical role play situation (not just shining it on your own eyes from the comfort of your desk), you'll see it's true.

You'd need a torch the size of a fridge to cover my whole field of vision. Maybe if you stick your little hand torch right in my eyeball you'd create a big enough blue spot to stop me seeing after I've brushed it aside but then I've chosen you because you're weaker than me so you're going to have some problems carrying that through. 

If you really think that having a hand torch shone full bright into your eyes will temporarily blind you then you must have different eyes to me.

Yes, during the moments that it's actually going directly into my eyes all I can see is the light but that just gives me a target to aim for when coming forward to remove it from your hands or brush it aside.

Unless you know how to fight you are going to lose if you stand there thinking your torch's light will help you and if you already know how to fight then you won't be allowing yourself to be distracted by focussing on where you're focussing your torch.


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## Justin13 (Apr 9, 2010)

I used my E2D about three years ago in self defense. 
5pm, bright sun shining in mid-town manhattan. 
One swing of a strike bezel to the bridge of the nose. 

KO

I'd not recommend anyone do this as the mope who grabbed me was seriously injured.
If there weren't so many other victims and witnesses, I would have been arrested for excessive force/violence.


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## Swedpat (Apr 9, 2010)

In my collection I have two lights especially useful for selfdefence. I am thinking about the legendary "nightstick with built-in flashlight" Mag 6D, and Fenix TA30. Both would be useful in different ways.
BUT: I also wonder about Tiablo A9/aspheric lens, as well. Imaging an attacking person and I aim the A9 to his face. Is it excluded that I could hold him away for several seconds enough to hit him with the 6D? I mean he hardly can continue the attack with closed eyes, and hardly hold his eyes open to see me staring right into that bright beam?


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 9, 2010)

Swedpat said:


> I mean he hardly can continue the attack with closed eyes, and hardly hold his eyes open to see me staring right into that bright beam?


if such a thing held true everyone walking west at four o'clock in the afternoon would have their eyes closed.

I mean it doesn't have an aspheric lens but that sun thing is pretty bright and would be shining directly at those westwalker's eye holes. That doesn't stop people seeing where they're walking, they just divert the angle of thier vision slightly and continue on. Just because I aim a light at your eye sockets does not mean your vision has to focus directly at the centre of it.

Go stand in front of a full length mirror in a dark room and shine that Diablo A9 so that it reflects back directly at your eyeball holes and see how easy it is to deal with while not actually closing your eyes. It's just a small point in your field of vision and you are not "blinded", nor do you have to close your eyes.

As to using it to allow you to get close enough to hit someone with something else, well that's combining two different aspects. The issue here as I understand it, is whether a torch's "light" alone is enough to disorient/disarm a committed attacker (as opposed to an opportunist trying to act with stealth who migth be scared off by what he sees as the consequences of being "seen").


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## csa (Apr 9, 2010)

Yeah... it's bright, but it doesn't particularly stop a determined attacker. At best it might deter someone who wasn't sure about things. It doesn't "halt someone in their tracks" the way it does if you just happen to poke it at a friend who isn't expecting it.


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## kaichu dento (Apr 9, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> Yes, seriously, and one doesn't need drugs. Try it sometime yourself but be committed about it, don't act weak.
> 
> One of these threads came up before and I tried an experiment. I gave a family member my Quark 123-2 Turbo set on maximum brightness with instructions to shine it directly into my eyes while I attempted an attack.
> 
> Guess what - I, the attacker won. I came forward to the light, brushed aside the arm that holds the torch (crikey, it does make it's whereabouts rather obvious) and that left the defender quite open and with one hand basically unusable because it's busy trying to stick a light in my eyes or stop me from grabbing it.


You and they both knew what was going to happen and just like your arguments, you were bound and determined to win. You have no idea who you would be attacking if you were to try it in real life and that they don't train for this kind of thing on a daily basis. In your secluded test you controlled everything; try it on a stranger and you may not fare so well.


JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> if such a thing held true everyone walking west at four o'clock in the afternoon would have their eyes closed.


You really assume a lot with this statement that your fellow CPF'er is going to try blinding someone in broad daylight. If it's daytime there's not a single member here who would try shining a light in your face. At the next GTG try your test again and let all the other members choose a light to blast in your eyes with a light of their choice while you keep your eyes wide open, then see if you can do anything before any of them can pound you down. Things change when you don't get to control the experiment.

You don't like the idea of what you imagine other members here are going to do if they have a flashlight when they're attacked and you deliberately ignore posts where members have successfully defended themselves because you're bound and determined to ignore the OP's post where he just wanted suggestions for a light and not to turn the whole thing into a bunch of crap about whether someone can defend themselves or not.

Let it go and give him some suggestions about what he asked about, please.


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## Mr Bigglow (Apr 9, 2010)

As far as simply using the bright light goes, consider an unlit indoors situation, which is virtually the only sort of place real darkness is found in our society, then consider that the light can be used to temporarily disable the bad guy's vision- not knocking him down etc but giving you a split second advantage. As far as impact use goes, 'most any small flash can be used as a kubaton stick- look it up if necessary. The spike-ier the ends are for that, the better. Then consider the possibility of delivering a larger size Mag D light upside the attacker's head- that covers most of the impact possibilities.

But I haven't seen mention of the most obvious self defense flashlight use of all, which is shine it around, normal-fashion, to light up dark areas you are going to pass through in order to ensure that Wannabe Jack, The Ripper, isn't crouched down in the shadows waiting for you. A gram of prevention is better than a tonne of cure (to update the usual saying).


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## Brigadier (Apr 9, 2010)

The best defensive use I have for a flashlight is the one attached to my Mossberg 930 12 GA.


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## SuReFiReRs (Apr 9, 2010)

An attacker after dark is using the dark as a "weapon" against you, as they can hide better and you can't see what they have or are trying to do. So, the best thing a light will do is eliminate the advantage the attacker may have by putting light on the subject. You can see what they are doing and what is going on. Yes, it may cause them to look away for a second, and in some cases that may be enough to get them to leave, but probably not. One of the lights like the E2DL or 6PD could be used, say if someone grabs your arm and tries to drag you away, to hit there arm and get them to let go...but in all the instances it is only a maybe as to if it will work. So...a light is not an end all defence tool but I do think it is very advantageous to keep with you. After all it is about options in an attack situation, and the more options you have the better your chances. 

just my .02


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## Larbo (Apr 9, 2010)

SuReFiReRs said:


> After all it is about options in an attack situation, and the more options you have the better your chances.



Yes options are always nice, however if Iam out with my family the only option is survival, as far as Iam concerned at any cost.


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## SuReFiReRs (Apr 9, 2010)

Larbo said:


> Yes options are always nice, however if Iam out with my family the only option is survival, as far as Iam concerned at any cost.


 
True, and if that light can help in that then it should be used


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## Dude Dudeson (Apr 9, 2010)

I'm of the opinion that the only real use for a bright light as self defense is to buy yourself an extra half second or so.

I figure without immediate follow up action (counterattack or escape) it's pretty much useless.

Interesting point though - I have very light sensitive eyes. Had to wear sunglasses outside ever since I was a toddler. If it were ME on the receiving end of a close range night time blast from 200+ lumens I guarantee you'd have just bought yourself probably a full two seconds of wiggle room...


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## SuReFiReRs (Apr 9, 2010)

Dude Dudeson said:


> I'm of the opinion that the only real use for a bright light as self defense is to buy yourself an extra half second or so.
> 
> I figure without immediate follow up action (counterattack or escape) it's pretty much useless.
> 
> Interesting point though - I have very light sensitive eyes. Had to wear sunglasses outside ever since I was a toddler. If it were ME on the receiving end of a close range night time blast from 200+ lumens I guarantee you'd have just bought yourself probably a full two seconds of wiggle room...


 
That is basically what I was say as well, but I do think that being able to see is also an advantage.


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## Swedpat (Apr 9, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> if such a thing held true everyone walking west at four o'clock in the afternoon would have their eyes closed.
> 
> I mean it doesn't have an aspheric lens but that sun thing is pretty bright and would be shining directly at those westwalker's eye holes. That doesn't stop people seeing where they're walking, they just divert the angle of thier vision slightly and continue on. Just because I aim a light at your eye sockets does not mean your vision has to focus directly at the centre of it.
> 
> ...



Yes, I guess you are right. A bright flashlight can possibly stop someone a few seconds if the person has dark adapted eyes, and it's necessary to act fast with the 6D...

Regards, Patric


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## 65535 (Apr 9, 2010)




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## Databyter (Apr 9, 2010)

A bright portable light such as the TK-40 shined in the face of an attacker is better than a bright portable light not shined in the face of an attacker.

If it doesn't stop them then you hit them with it when they get close enough. And I am assuming you have SOME distance between you and the individual. If you are already engaged in a physical fight then a flashlight is a club.
For purposes of this thread I am assuming the flashlight as a STOP or a PREVENTION of a suspicious person to get closer.
If it's just some guy who's not paying attention to you no harm no foul. If a fiend, then he knows that you mean business, and you know that if he gets closer after the challenge it's "on".

For the purposes of this thread I assume that people are talking about walking around at night NOT inside their homes (where obviously a shotgun or baseball bat might be a better choice to pick up), or on a bright sunny day.

In most States it is problematic to wear a gun. (it may be legal if not concealed but will mostly have people calling the police on you).

So, for the purposes of this thread I assume we are talking about walking at night, taking out the garbage, working, walking to the store, whatever.

I can tell you from experience that challenging an individual at night (who merits it by his behavior or location) with a light to the face is a logical first step that works on many levels (you're in my space, I want you to stop, I want to see you better, I want to put you at a disadvantage to see me).

And while it is true that a maniac or drugged out individual who wants to mug you or hurt you may not be stopped by the light in the face, his continued blind forward movement in the face of an obvious appeal to stop is needed evidence that you have a green light to take it to the next level (use verbal command as well. STOP!).

Whether drugged out or just committed to action the individual will either be recieving very little periferal visual information, or turning away which is the same thing. This gives you the advantage to kick or back up sideways or whatever as YOU attack or pull your pepper spray or whatever. I recommend pepper spray, FOX brand is excellent, I've seen it work. Train with this AND a light. It gives you a good shot and they can't see it coming.

This is indisputable. Will you still get hurt or lose a fight, maybe. But without the light you would be no better off would you? Used appropriatly it is an effective tool to shine or hit with, nothing more nothing less. Combined with other tools (pepper spray) or a swift kick to the groin that your attacker will not see it is very effective.

Unless you are a fast runner and/or have a head start, or are hopelessly indefensive, I don't recommend running, especially with a light on to give your attacker a target to chase you with. Turning your back on an attacker gives him the advantage. Unless he has a deadly weapon you can see, stand and fight. If you are prepared you have the advantage. Attackers usually target people that they expect to run, or not fight. Suprise them and most of the time THEY will be the ones running away. I just mean fight until you CAN get away, or until you have total control. After one good clobber with your light to his head you pretty much have your choice. Hit and run is a great strategy, especially for women. Even if you don't connect it lets them know it's not going to be easy.

A note on pepper spray, it works, but understand how it works. Know that you still need to keep your distance even as it does work. They may be half blind and doubled up in extreme pain (from the spray) but if they can get a hold of you and take vengance they will. Think of them as Zombies from your favorite Zombie flick. They are harmless unless you get too close.


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## Per-Sev (Apr 9, 2010)

If you are in a self defense situation and all you have is a flashlight then do what ever you can to protect yourself. I am disabled and don't have the option of running away so I do carry a cane and its a good one made of 1 1/16 hickory and if he does not have a weapon displayed that would be my first option of defense. My second would be my Glock if the cane does not work. I am sure most of the people on here have a better option than a light to stop someone but if that's all you got what the hell use it you never know.


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## defloyd77 (Apr 9, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> Yes, seriously, and one doesn't need drugs. Try it sometime yourself but be committed about it, don't act weak.
> 
> One of these threads came up before and I tried an experiment. I gave a family member my Quark 123-2 Turbo set on maximum brightness with instructions to shine it directly into my eyes while I attempted an attack.
> 
> Guess what - I, the attacker won. I came forward to the light, brushed aside the arm that holds the torch (crikey, it does make it's whereabouts rather obvious) and that left the defender quite open and with one hand basically unusable because it's busy trying to stick a light in my eyes or stop me from grabbing it.



Did you miss the link in my post? I HAVE done this before, except I was the defender. 2 21 year olds, who box and sparr each other all the time, who play rough and who are almost equally matched physically and mentally (he's slightly more physically, I'm more mentally). We unlike you and your defender I'm sure, were NOT PLAYING TAG. I strategized, obviously your defender failed to prevent you from coming within reaching distance.

You telling me rewarding your would be attacker a chocolate is motivation, but a hard roundhouse to the leg and the *** a bunch of times isn't?


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 9, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> You and they both knew what was going to happen and just like your arguments, you were bound and determined to win. You have no idea who you would be attacking if you were to try it in real life and that they don't train for this kind of thing on a daily basis. In your secluded test you controlled everything; try it on a stranger and you may not fare so well.


I think you've misread the intended thrust of my post, perhaps my fault for embellishing the point by placing it within a story rather than just stating the bland fact.

The issue wasn't really how well "I" would fare as an attacker, the issue was that I was not "blinded" or "disoriented" by the torch light while it was shining on me and that I was also still able to see clearly enough to continue an attack immediately after the torch was neutralised, I was not dazed, disoriented or unable to see, instead I had some small blue spots in front of my eyes.

My point was that the light simply did not have the actual effect on my vision that is so often touted on CPF. Ok, so yes, I admit I train to fight, fighting's been my hobby for thirty years but it was not that training that stopped me from being blinded by the torch, it was the fact that most handheld torches do not, in general, actually blind you if you man it out and deal with the effects of light on your vision. If you actually want to, you can look past the light and you can look through the after effects. I'd also refute the idea that most night attacks occur in very dark places, that's certainly not the case in my country.

That a torch has "blinding effect" consitutes the basic tenet on which so many of the defence theories expounded on here are founded, but the simple point I was trying to make is that such theories will founder since the basic premise actually only applies in regards to "some" people under "some" circumstances.

My point is not that all attackers train and thus will not be affected, that would be a silly point to make. My point is that anyone who takes along a torch while relying on it to effectively deter most attackers in most circumstances will be misplacing ther faith. 

Of course simple logic insists that "some" attackers will indeed be fended off by the light of the torch but then the same justification could be made for carrying a rat, or even a handful of poo.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 9, 2010)

defloyd77 said:


> Did you miss the link in my post? I HAVE done this before, except I was the defender. 2 21 year olds, who box and sparr each other all the time, who play rough and who are almost equally matched physically and mentally (he's slightly more physically, I'm more mentally). We unlike you and your defender I'm sure, were NOT PLAYING TAG. I strategized, obviously your defender failed to prevent you from coming within reaching distance.


I didn't do the test so that I could brag about my fighting ability. My brain isn't addled enough yet to think that whether I played rough or not would have any bearing on the results of what I was trying to test. It had no bearing because the issue being tested was simply whether I was able to be blinded or disabled by the torch's light as a result of a defender's determination to keep it in my eyes or whether I was able to continue advancing on the target. Fighting it out is a whole other aspect which I did cover in my post by saying - _"Unless you know how to fight you are going to lose if you stand there thinking your torch's light will help you and if you already know how to fight then you won't be allowing yourself to be distracted by focussing on where you're focussing your torch". _




.​


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## dudemar (Apr 9, 2010)

AAAAARGH not this kind of thread again!!!


I'm waiting for this thread to go 


:laughing:


.


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## Scotty007 (Apr 9, 2010)

Self Defense light?

Surefire E2DL, tested and approved!
the end result was blood...and it WAS NOT MINE! :devil:

...for legal reasons i do not encourage this type of behavior...but if you have to use it (the strike bezel)...it WORKS! :twothumbs


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## defloyd77 (Apr 9, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> I didn't do the test so that I could brag about my fighting ability. My brain isn't addled enough yet to think that whether I played rough or not would have any bearing on the results of what I was trying to test. It had no bearing because the issue being tested was simply whether I was able to be blinded or disabled by the torch's light as a result of a defender's determination to keep it in my eyes or whether I was able to continue advancing on the target. Fighting it out is a whole other aspect which I did cover in my post by saying - _"Unless you know how to fight you are going to lose if you stand there thinking your torch's light will help you and if you already know how to fight then you won't be allowing yourself to be distracted by focussing on where you're focussing your torch". _


_

My reasoning for stating our physical condition is to make a point that I am no faster on my feet than my friend, yet somehow I managed to get an advantage on him. I don't know how muggers strategize down under, but the common strategy around here is stalk and ambush using darkness as an advantage, I'm talking places where there most likely isn't enough ambient light and you need your night vision if you don't have a flashlight. My test replicated the latter situation, as we did this in my friend's backyard where there was a little starlight and barely any ambient light.

So I will agree that in lets say a decently lit parking lot, a flashlight wont be effective so effective, but in a dark alley or those dreadful dark patches between street lights, my test says that if you can stay one step ahead of your attacker like I did with my friend by using a quick flash and immediately act by either going on the offense or getting the hell outta dodge, you have an advantage.

I have to urge though, quickness is the key, you can't leave your light on for more than 1 second and you have to change your direction as they will most likely run toward where the light flash came from ie, if you were at their 12 oclock position when you flashed them, you should hopefully be at their 10 or 2 oclock position and placing your attack or running if you are quick enough before that initial white flash in their eyes goes away.

That was my test, that was my strategy, those are my results._


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 9, 2010)

defloyd77 said:


> I don't know how muggers strategize down under, but the common strategy around here is stalk and ambush using darkness as an advantage, I'm talking places where there most likely isn't enough ambient light and you need your night vision if you don't have a flashlight.


In truth the majority of out of the blue "robbery" style assaults that occur in NSW (the state of Australia where I live) occur in shopping centres, in carparks or on suburban streets where victims are on their way home from pubs, stations and the like and in many of those cases the victims are IP.

These are almost invariably places lit by streetlights. You'd go a long long way to find unlit streets in Australia. There are parks of course but the majority of the ones that I remember having a bad record for robbery style assaults back in the days when I was in the job still had lit pathways. Any areas that had a bad record and didn't have lighting, we chased up local councils through police liason committees and pressured them to provide it. 

These days in ever an increasing proportion of these cases there are also two or more assailants.

All that aside, you have devised a tactical approach to using your torch in a "situation" and that's what I said all along. Don't rely on the lioght from your torch to provide general safety. You need to have some other sort of additional ability to go along with it or you need to get out of there.

I remember back in the early nineties dealing with a victim where a seventeen year old lone offender had tried to hold up this chap in one of those poorly lit parks using a twelve inch bladed knife. The victim took off his belt and gave the offender an utter flogging then chased him for over a kilometre until the offender took refuge in a railway station and was grabbed by security guards there.

It was pretty funny in court holding up this twelve inch bladed knife while looking at the offender with his face and arms cut to shreds from the belt buckle.

We know that when one has the innate ability and experience to use a weapon effectively one can use just about anything as a weapon but how many people would you advise that they are safe simply because they are wearing their belt tonight?


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 9, 2010)

I admit that I don't know how this compares to other countries but I'd also point out that in Australia an ever increasing percentage of night time "out of the blue" assaults in public places are not robbery motivated at all.

What is becoming very common is cases where the victims will be on their way home from some place of entertainment or other and will be set upon by one or more assailants who want to bash them because they have taken a dislike to them for some reason or other. It may be because the victim looked at their girlfriend, spilled a drink, talked too loud, made an offensive joke, bravado'd up in the safety of numbers or just looked like they need taking down a peg or two. The victim may not be particularly concious of any of this. The assailants will wait until the victim is on the streets without the protection of venue bouncers or the victims mates. These assailants are often committed attackers who fight and bash for fun so they may well be quite well experienced. 

Your attacker is not always some half emaciated homeless loony drunk lurking in the shadows looking solely for a wallet to steal.


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## defloyd77 (Apr 9, 2010)

I guess the problem with all of these threads is that each persone assumes a particular situation is going to happen and aren't exactly too specific about this certain situation. I will agree JDIO, in the situations you describe, a light will not help much if at all, but in mine, it could help you gain a critical second, maybe 2, to get a slight advantage.

If you have nothing else, it's better than nothing, kind of like punching a shark in the nose or gills sort of thing.


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## kaichu dento (Apr 10, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> My point is not that all attackers train and thus will not be affected, that would be a silly point to make. My point is that anyone who takes along a torch while relying on it to effectively deter most attackers in most circumstances will be misplacing ther faith.
> 
> Of course simple logic insists that "some" attackers will indeed be fended off by the light of the torch but then the same justification could be made for carrying a rat, or even a handful of poo.


Mainly I was hoping that the merits of lights as a defensive tool would cease to be the focus of this thread when what the OP wanted was some suggestions for lights that would fare well with this intent in mind.

That said I have to definitely agree with your above statements and the handful of poo would probably be a great deterrent! 


defloyd77 said:


> I have to urge though, quickness is the key, you can't leave your light on for more than 1 second and you have to change your direction as they will most likely run toward where the light flash came from ie, if you were at their 12 oclock position when you flashed them, you should hopefully be at their 10 or 2 oclock position and placing your attack or running if you are quick enough before that initial white flash in their eyes goes away.


Anyone that wants to build any kind of defensive strategy, even if it's carrying a gun, needs to make note of what you've put into words so well here.

So, does anyone have any suggestions for what light might fulfill the OP's request? It should be quick to get into high or strobe, whichever you think would be most effective and one of my thoughts would be the NDI or Extreme Infinity by Nitecore. What other choices would you offer him?


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 10, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> So, does anyone have any suggestions for what light might fulfill the OP's request? It should be quick to get into high or strobe, whichever you think would be most effective and one of my thoughts would be the NDI or Extreme Infinity by Nitecore. What other choices would you offer him?


I can't advise on what might be good but I would certainly caution against selecting my otherwise current favourite torch the MkII P20C2 eagletac if one is going to use a poke and move technique. Because of the interface programme needing to check the status of the "strobe disable" setting there is a delay between pressing the momentary switch and the light actually exiting the end of the barrel. Pain in the butt and in a high heartrate situation one can actually be confused into thinking the light isn't working properly and thus you have to react to the torch and not your target and it just stuffs up your whole techinique.

Actually, as much as I hated it, my old TK20 was a good contender. It also had a sort of toothy tailcap for those who want such things.


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## Patriot (Apr 10, 2010)

Bob96 said:


> To distract an attacker so you might get away from the area which is better - a bright steady beam into the eyes - or a strobe? Which option might distract the person for the longest time? I was thinking that a strobe might distract them more but a steady beam might contract the pupils more taking a longer recovery period?




A strobe of the right frequency is most distracting. A steady beam allows the pupils to eventually constrict whereas the strobe is always "ahead" one step ahead of the eyes. Good strobe rates can absolutely leave a person baffled in a very dark environment. Besides being more difficult for the eyes to deal with, it's typically and unexpected effect and can add a bit more confusion and second guessing for the person being strobed. While horsing around various lights and performing informal mock attacks on training partners the strobe is always worse for me and causes me to loose track of the guy who's strobing me, more easily. In other words, he can slip away more effectively as I hunch over while moving forward, flailing my hands in front of me as I try not to run into anything. The darker it is, the worse the effect but in this case the same applies to steady light. 

Regarding lights, the WiseLED Tatical is the worst strobe that I've ever tried to overcome. The Raptor RRT-1 is probably the worst of more conventionally sized lights, but the beam is a bit narrow and the defender has to be more careful with their aim. That said, we got pretty good and aiming it and it's vary disorientating. Makes for a lot of laughs too...as we took turns observing the attackers' various reactions.


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## kramer5150 (Apr 10, 2010)

The only flashlight (by itself) I would consider a defensive weapon would be a D-mag. Its been banned for use by PDs throughout the country for a very good reason... it works as a skull basher.

Someone who's intoxicated or under the influence, in a temper rage will care less about being blinded form bright light.


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## Justin Case (Apr 10, 2010)

USA advice only. John Peters's old book "Defensive Tactics with Flashlights" is a useful reference. For small flashlights like AA Mini Mags and 6Ps, any text or training in Kubotan techniques is applicable. Personally, I wouldn't bother with the Kubotan joint lock techniques. If you can pull those off, you don't need the Kubotan in the first place. Plus, the private citizen's goal is disengagement, not arrest. So joint lock restraint methods IMO don't make a lot of sense. I'd focus on the Kubotan striking techniques.

There was already a long thread recently where many suggestions were made on which lights might be useful for the visual blinding aspect. Besides brightness and strobing, issues such as convenient carry and deployment were also considered.


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## Chevy-SS (Apr 10, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> .... a seventeen year old lone offender had tried to hold up this chap in one of those poorly lit parks using a twelve inch bladed knife. The victim took off his belt and gave the offender an utter flogging then chased him for over a kilometre until the offender took refuge in a railway station and was grabbed by security guards there.
> 
> It was pretty funny in court holding up this twelve inch bladed knife while looking at the offender with his face and arms cut to shreds from the belt buckle.......



Oh man, that's a great story! Was the belt an official "tactical" belt? :shakehead


-


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 10, 2010)

Chevy-SS said:


> Oh man, that's a great story! Was the belt an official "tactical" belt? :shakehead-


The belt had one of those pivoted at one end solid buckles, like on a uniform belt (well actually it was a uniform belt but the less said about that......).

The thing that has kept coming back to me time after time over the years is how on earth did his pants stay up. I mean he chased the bloke from one end of Belmore Park in Pitt Street Sydney up near the Chamberlain Hotel, right up to central station and down onto the middle of one of the underground platforms. I know for a fact that in the same situation my pants button would have popped and the things would be down around my thighs within the first hundred yards.


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## peterkin101 (Apr 10, 2010)

I've posted elsewhere on a similar matter.

I can only post for my experience in the UK. BUT IMHO you run the risk of being charged with possession of an offensive weapon should you get stopped carrying a torch like the E2D.

Torches suitable for self defence in the UK, as they are torches without any serrated front ends etc would be an LED Lenser P14, Maglite 4D or 6D.

However the best possible defence is to RUN.


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## dudemar (Apr 11, 2010)

peterkin101 said:


> However the best possible defence is to RUN.



I agree. GTFO is the best plan.


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## g36pilot (Apr 11, 2010)

Another treatise on this subject: 

Flashlight Fighting
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1581605021/?tag=cpf0b6-20 

For OODA Loop disruption a bright light works. For kubaton techniques a stock Minimag works great.

Add this http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/auroralite_hotwire.htm and a tail cap switch to the mini mag. Expect to damage the switch using this setup as a kubaton, but in a CQB situation it's not an issue due to bigger worries.


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## Chevy-SS (Apr 11, 2010)

peterkin101 said:


> .......I can only post for my experience in the UK. BUT IMHO you run the risk of being charged with possession of an offensive weapon should you get stopped carrying a torch like the E2D.
> 
> Torches suitable for self defence in the UK, as they are torches without any serrated front ends etc would be an LED Lenser P14, Maglite 4D or 6D.
> 
> However, the best possible defence is to RUN.




I find this ultra-liberal attitude to be naive and dangerous. Self-protection is an inherent right, NOT to be taken away by some power-grabbing bureaucrats.

You say, "the best possible defence is to RUN". Yeah, that's great if you're 20, but I'm 60 years old. I'm not gonna be able to outrun a 20-year old bad guy. I'm stuck there, at the mercy of the bad guy. But that's OK, because I'm in the good ole USA and I have two friends with me, Smith & Wesson, and they are really good friends to have when the SHTF. The first thing I'll wave in the BG's face is my tactical strobe, if that doesn't work, the next thing he'll see is the barrel of a .45

Always remember - *when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.*

-


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## Larbo (Apr 11, 2010)

Chevy-SS said:


> Always remember - *when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.*
> -



+1 

Very Good!


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## Grayblue (Apr 11, 2010)

My every day carry a light also serves a security purpose.

But, it has nothing to do with striking someone or "blinding" or "disorienting." 

It serves a security light purpose by doing what it does best. It lets me see if there is a threat and when it is there it lets me see it clear enough for me to aim a weapon on it if need be.

I've had a person flash all those fancy lights from 60~200+ lumens, momentary, constant, strobe, etc. at my face. I was never blinded or disoriented to a degree that I would be stopped from hurting that person if I wanted to.

In an open area near total darkness, the offender may not see well if a light is shined directly on his eyes. But, with ambient lighs in urban night situations, or in a speace like a room where indirect illumination from your own light would create enough ambient light, the offender won't have much problem finding you.


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## shark_za (Apr 12, 2010)

Your flash-light is a tool used to identify things at night. 
It allows you to see danger and react to things you see.

Very important in staying safe. If you know something is there you can work around it.


For me it works like that but I do have another last resort or two to deploy once I know what is going on.


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