# Anyone tried Phoenix reflectors?



## AlexGT (Jan 12, 2010)

I saw the new ad today for Phoenix Electroformed Reflectors on the top of the CPF page and I am wondering If anyone has used their products and how much they cost.

http://www.phoenixelectroforms.com/parabolic_standard_products.html

I can see a good market for such a company if they keep the prices reasonable and can supply small orders.

I would love to see the PA-10 4.75" Diam 4.69" deep reflector focusing a SST-90.

Are you all exited to see reflector manufacturers advertising on CPF? I am!

I wish I had a lathe and knew how to use it. 

AlexGT


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## Linger (Jan 13, 2010)

+1
I saw the banner and looked around their site and believe I went through all the sections. But that's as far as it went: i thought it looked great but didn't know what I might be interested in or how I would order it from them. Even if they'd sell small (individual?) part orders.

I'd love a post in the b/s/t/ from them explaining which products for what emitters, a little pic next to popular lights. I _know_ some reflectors are crap, but sourcing a replacement has thus far eluded me.


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## Parabolic (Jan 13, 2010)

Single piece sales are welcomed. Prices vary with coatings applied. Feel free to contact and discuss.


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## luckybucket (Jan 15, 2010)

Awesome! Another manufacturer that post in the forums. I'm interested in your products but I have to wait for the all the other pieces and parts to come in for my project so for now I just want to say thanks for posting. It inspires confidence.


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## Linger (Jan 15, 2010)

Parabolic said:


> Feel free to contact and discuss.


I feel that I need more information before I could have a discussion on reflectors. I know little about shape, little about coatings. It would be a short conversation: "your product line confounds me: what do you recommend for X emmitter and Y by Z host?"

Electron Guru, for example, creates a comprehensive explanation of options and outcomes. As a result he's got people ordering coloured ceramic coatings on lights, an obviously rare treatment but its presented in a wholly convincing manner.


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## Parabolic (Jan 15, 2010)

The majority of uses for our reflectors has been with compact short arc Xenon, HID, and more recently with the D2S automotive style lamps. The relatively small source size and large projection angle of this style lamp allows the most effective collection of energy, and produces a very collimated searchlight beam. 
The hemispherical lens along with the limited viewing/projection angle of a given LED provides a large directional source that will not function the same as an arc. We have just recently been receiving inquiries by customers who need reflectors and either use or want to use LED's. For most applications, the standard product reflectors on our website are too large to efficiently work within the design parameters provided, so custom reflectors which are much smaller were designed for them.
I would like to put together a list of some of the more popular LED's to begin modeling reflectors around, but am honestly not that familiar with what's being used. Any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## Linger (Jan 15, 2010)

Well said.

So as you don't re-invent the wheel, I did some digging.

Here's a thread on some fairly popular work that's come before you:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/91615

Beamshots of above mentioned reflectors:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=118177

pdf with build dimensions of above:
http://dmcleish.com/CPF/reflectors/

(If you have the capacity to evaulate the led domes, you could make the largest impact. Scattered reports suggest the led dome, a standard feature across manufacturors, is the bottleneck in led output. work out a hack for the domes that maximized the potential of your reflectors could offer clear no-contest supremecy over competition.)

You asked briefly about 'popular' led's.
Cree xpg package, r5 is highest flux bin and most efficient led on the market.

Luminus ss*x* - 90 seems to be more popular on CPF. Identical luminus emitters come in two formats, ss*t* for bare emitter, ss*r* for emitter mounted on star. The luminus ss_-90 is rated up to 9amps, and many are attracted to that potential power. The luminus ss_ -50 seems less common as it is only rated to 5amps, however it is the same size as previous emitters so many lights may be modded to a ss_ - 50 by simply swapping the emitter.

Favourite thrower has been Cree xre in r2 flux. This small emitter boasts the highest surface luminous intensity (largest output / smallest die size) so it makes a great thrower.

The Rebel 100 is a great emitter, small and efficient, but it is rarely discussed.

Quad die emitters Cree mc-e, and Seoul Semi Conductor's P7 were the highest output options before Luminus was release past summer. These packages unite 4 dies under one dome, producing the higher output with obvious knock-on problems of dark patches from the space between emissive surfaces.


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## Pekka (Jan 15, 2010)

Linger said:


> Favourite thrower has been Cree xre in r2 flux. This small emitter boasts the highest surface luminous intensity (largest output / smallest die size) so it makes a great thrower.



Doesn't Cree's XP-E pack the lumens in a smaller area? I'd go after that for a throw in that case. :thinking:


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## Parabolic (Jan 15, 2010)

Thank you for the great information Linger. I appreciate that you took the time and will begin researching.


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## Linger (Jan 17, 2010)

Pekka said:


> Doesn't Cree's XP-E pack the lumens in a smaller area?


I don't have a good answer. it may? but it's not the best thrower. instead of the tight beam angle, the xpe's with-out a metal ring have a wider angle. Now instead of reflectors sitting on top of the metal ring, the xpe's wide dispersion meant they had to be sit up inside of the reflector, and the hot spot was never as tight.


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## Pekka (Jan 18, 2010)

Linger said:


> I don't have a good answer. it may? but it's not the best thrower. instead of the tight beam angle, the xpe's with-out a metal ring have a wider angle. Now instead of reflectors sitting on top of the metal ring, the xpe's wide dispersion meant they had to be sit up inside of the reflector, and the hot spot was never as tight.



I'll give you what I have experienced first hand, since I'm not exactly an reflector expert and therefore wouldn't want to delve too deeply into the academic discussion. In terms of throw I've noticed XP-E has had always as tight hotspot or tighter than XR-E, while both are significantly tighter than XP-G powered lights. Also, I've read about incans having pretty wide angle (well it's all around) but due to small emitting area, can be focused into a throwy light. Most notably, the metal collar in XR-E has only helped in creating the black "donut holes" in the beam.


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## bshanahan14rulz (Jan 19, 2010)

Not to mention with the lambertian emission it throws more light to the side for the reflector to collect, so logically one would conclude that it at least contributes a little lux to the hotspot

@Phoenix correspondant, LEDs commonly used around here are lambertian LEDs like the Seoul Semi.'s P4 and Luxeon line (and cree XP series), and the Cree XR-E with a more forward focused pattern. There are also some oddballs that are very popular for their high output in a single package. These include the Cree MC-E and the Seoul Semiconductors' P7.


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## Walterk (Jan 28, 2010)

@Parabolic: Glad to see you sell to end users.
Hope you will answer the mail I send last weekeind about shipping overseas.


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## Aircraft800 (Jan 29, 2010)

Parabolic said:


> Single piece sales are welcomed. Prices vary with coatings applied. Feel free to contact and discuss.


 
Parabolic,

Great to see a new manufacture here, and one that's interested in our obsession. When I saw you banner ad, I immediately clicked it. Lots of info there for me to digest, but I'll wait to see some of your ideas and designs. 

I've got a 52mm reflector in a Maglite with a 14W Solarc HID, maybe a specific HID reflector will give a tighter spot.

:welcome:


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## KuKu427 (Jan 29, 2010)

I've never actually ordered from them...
But I know they answer emails fast and are very helpful!


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## Phaserburn (Feb 21, 2010)

Reflectors for Mag C/D size lights would be welcomed by a great many of us; they are needed with different coatings (orange peel, stipple, smooth) and with different size openings.

Do you carry this size? Pricing? There are zillions of modded Maglites in population on the forum here, and more added all the time. P7/MCE/SST50 leds need a little different treatment vs. hotwire incan bulbs, which do great with standard parabolic shape but coated to eliminate artifacts, rings and shadows.

:welcome:


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## Parabolic (Feb 23, 2010)

Thanks for the welcome Phaserburn, and to everyone else as well.

We are excited with the response we have been getting from our ad here on CPF.

As I mentioned previously, our reflectors are pure parabolas. This geometry may or may not be a good match for the various LED's available and testing will need to be done to make that determination (either by us, individual modders, or both). 

Our manufacturing process will make a very accurate reflector, which is the advantage we have over other means of fabrication such as stamping, spinning, injection molding, etc. Unfortunately, the electroforming process is not an inexpensive one, and competing with those other methods of fabrication is often not warrented for the increase in output vs. the added cost.

In the case of the Mag reflectors, I'm not sure if you are looking for a source other than Mag for the same reflector, or if you are looking for something different that will fit in the same housing. 
Most of the time when a custom reflector is required, the designer comes to us with a curve that has been designed around the source that they intend to use. We then build a tool to replicate the desired curve from and make the reflectors. Conversely, the designer may choose one of our standard reflectors and design their product around it.

I'm not sure if this answers your questions or just raises more. In either case, I'd be happy to continue the conversation.


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## Mettee (Feb 23, 2010)

I dont think the majority of flashlight, or mag modders here would be able to design their own reflector. We would more than likely have to rely on the professionals for that 

If you guys could design one or two affordable, efficient reflectors for us, you would have to be comfortable in knowing they would sell very well. VERY WELL.

I personally just used the mag rebel led reflector in a P7 build and it worked well. Something close to that would be good.


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## Phaserburn (Feb 23, 2010)

Actually, I was thinking of a Mag parabolic reflector of the same dimensions with two differences: 1. made of aluminum to handle heat from higher power light sources and 2. an orange peel or stipple surface to eliminate rings and artifacts in the beam.


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## spencer (Feb 23, 2010)

KD does (or did) sell an aluminum OP reflector for $15. I have one.


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## ma_sha1 (Feb 24, 2010)

I think he meant the Aluminum version of rebel led reflector,
which is a deeper reflector. The Alu. clones hasn't been avail. yet.

Regular Mag reflector clones in Alu. is everywhere, KD/DX/FM etc.

I'd def. be buying if a Alu. clone of the deeper rebel reflctor is made in LOP.


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## Parabolic (Feb 24, 2010)

Our fabrication process is nickel electroforming, so the reflector substrate would be nickel. The substrate can then be overcoated with very thin aluminum to enhance reflectivity. 
I will try to get my hands on one of the mag parts to determine the geometry. If we can make the tool to form the reflectors, offering a variety of vertex (small end) openings won't be a problem.
The reflectors as they come off the tool will be smooth. We have experimented with adding an orange peel surface and are currently awaiting feedback from a couple of CPF members.


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## ma_sha1 (Feb 24, 2010)

For Led use, an reflector with a flat bottom exactly at the focal point works really well, like this:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12229 

This reflector has worked for me on P7, MCE, SST-50, SST-90.
heck, I am even using one in my current mag 85 incan with great results. 

I imagine a deeper reflector with this type of bottom would be perfect. 
(I.E. Copy Mag rebel reflector geometry but introduce a flat bottom version where the bottom, as thin as possible, is where the focal point is and make the bottom opening toward the small end if too many hole sizes may increase inventory risk).

I think in traditional reflector, what's below the focal point may get a few extra lumens of incan light bounced forward but it's useless for LED as led only projects forward. The flat bottom allows easy design of flashlight & use as one knows exactly where the focal point is. 

I think this design make sense from the business angle, as led has much bigger market than incans on CPF, you can see the 10:1 ratio of folks hang around Led section over incan section. Also under the Custom Modding section, look at the activities between LED lights vs. incan lights. 

Plus, with the flat bottom, it's very easy to bore it out with step drill bid if a bigger led need a bigger hole, so you don't need to inventory many flavors with many different openings. It's harder to bore out the hole of traditional incan reflector cleanly.

As far as surface finish, Heavy Orange Peal was popular due to the need to blend the beams of 4 dies (P7/Mce) together to remove donut. 
As the market moves toward more powerful single die (SST-50 & 90) leds, a Light Orange Peal (LOP) finish would be 
the optimized solution between beam quality & max. throw. A SMO still gives poor beam on SST-50 & SST-90.


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## Parabolic (Feb 25, 2010)

Would a replacement reflector for the purpose of modified lights require the focus feature as used on the Mag D lights?


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## Aircraft800 (Feb 25, 2010)

Parabolic said:


> Would a replacement reflector for the purpose of modified lights require the focus feature as used on the Mag D lights?


 
No, most Mag mods require that you cut it off anyway. The threaded barrel to head gives you as much focus as needed provided the LED or filament is in the appropriate position.

The only time the cam is used is if using a Bi-Pin socket dropin, but MOST of the time a ceramic socket or AL Heatsink is used.

Mag C and D both use the same reflector.


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## Mettee (Feb 25, 2010)

ma_sha1 said:


> I think he meant the Aluminum version of rebel led reflector,
> which is a deeper reflector. The Alu. clones hasn't been avail. yet.
> 
> Regular Mag reflector clones in Alu. is everywhere, KD/DX/FM etc.
> ...



That is exatly what I meant ma_sha1 

But you can no longer focus the head with a flat bottom so I would be against a flat bottom, but they could make both versions I am sure


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## Benson (Feb 25, 2010)

ma_sha1 said:


> I think in traditional reflector, what's below the focal point may get a few extra lumens of incan light bounced forward but it's useless for LED as led only projects forward.


In an incan, it contributes almost _half_ the total output -- usually more than "a few extra".


> The flat bottom allows easy design of flashlight & use as one knows exactly where the focal point is.


 The wide flat-bottom design, IMO, is a result of designing reflectors as derivatives of incan design -- the vast majority of LED reflectors have a vertex opening only the width of the LED, because they're designed with the focus closer to the vertex. The Mag Rebel reflector was similarly designed, but with a width just wide enough for the LED module, so if you cloned it's profile, you'd get a flat just over the module width.


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## nc_hooper (Dec 22, 2011)

I have a 3" head from fivemega and am looking into getting a Phoenix reflector for using it with a SST-90 build. I emailed them and they gave me a very quick and technically complete response. I'm impressed so far. Unfortunately a completely custom reflector (one-off) from them is out of my price range, but it looks like I might be able to use a slightly modified version of one of their standard reflectors. Will keep you informed if I end up going this route.


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## nc_hooper (Dec 23, 2011)

I took some measurements of my existing 3" FM reflector and found out it is much shallower (long focal length) than the standard Phoenix PA1.13 reflector. Standard about 2" deep vs about 3" for the Phoenix. This would be good for throw, combined with the fact that the shorter focal length has the LED further back in the reflector. At this point I'm considering a custom extension to the FM head. The existing bezel is threaded on the outside, so it seems like a good metal person could create this custom part.


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## nc_hooper (Jan 26, 2012)

This week I received 3 reflectors from Bruce at Phoenix. He was very patient in answering my questions. I'm planning to have some custom pieces created so I can use them with my FM Elephant II with FM 3" head. Some specifics:

- with the custom mounts plan to have the reflector flush against the glass - so Phoenix sanded the front on a micro flat (does not guarantee that will be perpendicular to the optic axis but will be very close)

- used the AQ surface he recommended - reflectors look optically flawless and very shiny

- two of the reflectors where standard pieces (PA10.7 - focal length 0.3", diam 3.85") (PA1.13 - FL 0.2", diam 3.15")

- the third is a cut down version of the P1.13 with a diameter of 2.77" - to fit the diameter of my FM 3" head.

Simply hand holding the reflectors to my XM-L LED on a post, noticed the the shorter focal length PA1.13 focuses with the LED almost flush to the reflector opening while the PA10.7 needs the LED inside about 7mm. The shorter focal length reflectors are a lot more sensitive to the focal alignment. My eventual build for this will be a SST-90 at 9 amps on a 18mm wide post.

I'm planning to use the 2.77" reflector inside my existing FM 3" head, with a custom piece between the head and bezel that will provided the additional depth, and will hold and center the reflector. My next plan would be to have a custom piece for mounting the 3.85" reflector, but this would require a lot more work (custom head, bezel, lens).

Will post some results when everything is finished. My best throwers (ranked) currently are 1) TK70 2) XML 3 amp mag conversion using either FM Throwmaster or FM 3" heads 3)Deerelight aspherical with 1.5 amp XR-E. Hope this new custom piece will out throw them all.


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## DBCstm (Jan 26, 2012)

NC, I'd really like to hear how this works out. I just had a 2.8Amp XM-L T6 done by JayRob and would love to know if Phoenix has a reflector that will boost the throw in my Mag Stubby. I went with the Rebel reflector for the deeper curve and it's better but still not as throwy as with the Mag Cree emitter. I literally bought several of the new Cree MagLites and used one for the mod, compared the throw to the stock reflector and apparently the XM-L has a different requirement of the reflector. I ordered some aspherics for it but am pretty sure that's not the way I want to go. Will be looking for more info on this and may go ahead and contact Phoenix as well myself.


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## nc_hooper (Jan 27, 2012)

DBCstm - I'll keep everyone informed. I currently have a XM-L done by JayRob also, and planning to have JayRob do my SST-90 mod.

Regarding my current 2D mag / 2x32650 / 3 amp XML T6 - I have a variety of reflectors and heads that I have tried on it. I had JayRob make a slightly smaller post (12mm) so it could fit the slightly smaller holes on some of these. The larger diameter reflectors definitely have more throw (and a smaller hot spot) with the XM-L (as expected). Of the reflectors I have, here is the rank in terms of throw: 3" FM3H-3 reflector and head, 2.5" FM Throwmaster refector and head, and then the various reflectors that fit in the standard head (metal KD smooth reflector, stock reflector, rebel reflector). The 2 larger reflectors have a lot more throw, with the 3" throwing slightly more (the 3" is actually closer to 2.75", the 2.5" is 2.5" and is slightly deeper. Did not see any significant difference between the various stock size reflectors. If you went the stock size route, I don't think you'll see much of a difference between reflectors. Of the FM larger heads, I would recommend the Throwmaster because it's considerably less expensive and lighter. The FM3H-3 is heavy and has lots of cooling fins - overkill for the XML but will be useful for my SST-90 build.

You might want to look into FM's bi-focal reflector or Deep reflectors. Both of these retain the stock reflector diameter, but the bi-focal put's most of the reflective surface further from the LED, and the Deep reflector actually makes the head and reflector deeper. I have booth of these, but have not tried them with the XML because I need to increase the hole sizes.

My brother has a 3D mag with a Malkoff XP-G. He wants me to maximize throw on it, while keeping the size and expense fairly low. Will probably try the two reflectors mentioned in the previous paragraph. In addition, I'm looking at the various optics and aspherical for it. In his case, he wants minimum spill, so the optic or aspherical route might be best.

The biggest challenge in using the reflectors from Phoenix is figuring out how to mount them. In my case, looking at some custom lathe work - will see how this works out and the expense.


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## DBCstm (Jan 27, 2012)

Great stuff there, do you know if FiveMega is still making those reflectors or heads? I've looked around and everything seems to be outdated. Using a standard Mag LED reflector, my XM-L T6 is throwing huge light out past 300 yds, it's not a tight spot out there either and pretty much everything between me and 300+ yds is illuminated, so I'm not sure I'd like to throw further with a smaller hot spot as this really lights up the way. I've got some pictures on JayRobs customer comment section if you're interested.


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## sadtimes (Jan 27, 2012)

ma_sha1 said:


> I think he meant the Aluminum version of rebel led reflector,
> which is a deeper reflector. The Alu. clones hasn't been avail. yet.
> 
> Regular Mag reflector clones in Alu. is everywhere, KD/DX/FM etc.
> ...



I would be in for these as well provided they would work with DW's SST-90 heatsinks.. would love to maximise the throw from my 90 builds

EDIT: I would want SMO reflectors for pure throw


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## nc_hooper (Jan 29, 2012)

If you go to FiveMega's sales tread, most of the stuff is still out there. However the larger heads have limited (funky) colors.

Sorry I was not clear on the aluminum standard size reflector. It's a smooth standard depth (not rebel depth). I think I bought it from KD (Kaidomain).


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## The_Driver (Jun 28, 2012)

nc_hooper said:


> If you go to FiveMega's sales tread, most of the stuff is still out there. However the larger heads have limited (funky) colors.
> 
> Sorry I was not clear on the aluminum standard size reflector. It's a smooth standard depth (not rebel depth). I think I bought it from KD (Kaidomain).



Did you ever finish your project? How is the beam of the sst-90 with the phoenix reflectors?

Also how is the beam of the sst-90 light with the different fivemega reflectors? I have a Varapower Turbo (de-domed) and would like a higher quality head for it. It uses the cheap 3in sst-90 reflector from DX.


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## Hoop (Jul 1, 2012)

I have one of those 3" dx reflectors and it seems pretty good quality imo.

The problem with phoenix reflectors standard line of parabolic reflectors as it pertains to LEDs is that they don't offer each version with the vertex being at the focal plane, which means you will have to extend the LED mount into the reflector a ways to hit the focus. Their PA11 and PA12 series reflectors look to be specifically designed for LED application, but they are available in limited sizes. If PE can customize the size of the vertex on any of their reflectors, this makes it easier for a standard reflector to suit a particular application. 

I never got around to calling them and asking about this though.


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