# Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.



## BVH (Aug 9, 2011)

I posted here some time ago regarding my possible purchase of a lathe. I got cold feet and didn’t buy anything. I’m now ready to take the plunge. Over the past 14 days, I’ve spent many, many hours each day reading specs, reviews and users comments on many different machine forums of many brands and sizes of machines. I started out thinking a Sieg C4 style would be plenty of machine for me. Then the C6, the Grizzly 0602, (10x22), and the latest one, the one I think would be perfect for me, the Precision Matthews 1127VF-Large Bore lathe. For its' hobbyist/benchtop size, it has a large, 1.5” spindle bore - much more than the .8 - 1" bores on similar class machines. It also has a power cross feed which I could not find on other, similar class machines. These are two things that I really want to have.

http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-1127-VF.html

I then found, read, re-read and re re-read WQuiles thread on his PM 1236 and began looking earnestly at that one. It really looks huge! To the point that I feel kinda intimidated by it so I keep going back to the 1127. The 1236 reminds me of a machine that I might see walking into a commercial machine shop. If I were to buy that one, I would not gain any spindle bore size increase since they are both 1.5”. It does have twice the HP, more center to center distance and a few more thread pitch options - but I’m not convinced I need those.

http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1236.html

But the big, loud, nagging voice in my head keeps repeating what most everyone here and on the forums always says – Buy the biggest machine that you can shoehorn into your space. I think Wquiles even said something about having wanted a bigger machine than his 1236. Where does it stop? Along these lines though, if I bought the 1127, used it for 3-5 years and then decided to get something better, it’s not the end of the world.

My needs? I have absolutely no ideas of what I will use the machine for. I just know that I want one. I am hoping by having one, that I will find things that I can make with it.

My experience? From about 1975 to 1984, I infrequently used an old Southbend that I’m guessing was somewhere around a 10x24. I mostly made pins, bushings and the like for heavy equipment repair. All told, I probably have 50 hours time. So I’m pretty much a novice/beginner.

My space? I can fit either one into the garage with a few mods. I’m a bit more cramped with the 1236.

The things I like about the 1127 that are different from the 1236: It has a variable speed, belt driven spindle. It sounds very quiet on the videos I’ve watched. I would prefer not to have to wear hearing protection full-time as I believe I would when using the 1236, gear driven machine. It’s about 10” narrower than the 1236, giving me a little more elbow room in the garage.

It really seems as if I’ve decided on the 1127 but I’m just concerned about maybe buying something too small. I’m sure everyone here has gone through the same process I’m going through. How did you finally make your decision on what to buy?

To make this process even more difficult, I’m having the same issue deciding between a PM25 and PM30 mill drill. The only thing stopping me from the 25 is its’ 2” spindle travel. That seems very short whereas the 30 has 2 ¾”. Grizzlys’ G0704 is very comparable to the PM25 and is significantly cheaper but is also limited to 2” of travel. In the hobbyist world, is 2” of travel a handicap? Is 2 3/4 a sizable gain?


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## precisionworks (Aug 9, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> Buy the biggest machine that you can shoehorn into your space. I think Wquiles even said something about having wanted a bigger machine than his 1236. *Where does it stop?* Along these lines though, if I bought the 1127, used it for 3-5 years and then decided to get something better, it’s not the end of the world.



Where/when does it stop ... when you take that final ride (in the black hearse) :nana:

Anyone who says their lathe is large enough (or that their shop is big enough) isn't using theirs too often.

One thing to remember about any lathe you buy today, no matter what the size or brand, is that you'll spend around 40 hours on a Chinese lathe getting it tweaked ... and you'll spend another 40 hours a few years down the road on the larger one you buy. Better to do that just once.



> it has a large, 1.5” spindle bore - much more than the .8 - 1" bores on similar class machines. It also has a power cross feed which I could not find on other, similar class machines. These are two things that I really want to have.



Spindle bore is a big deal, and 1.500" is the magic number among small machines - it lets you do lots of light work, most barrel work (chambering/reaming) at the chuck, etc. Power cross is neither here nor there IMO - I rarely engage mine, as it's a lot faster to spin the dial than it is to change the feed gear setting & try to find the correct infeed speed. If you're facing the end of a 24" shaft - that's a different story.

You're on the right track & you are certain to make a good decision, whichever machine is decided upon.


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## metalbutcher (Aug 9, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> I then found, read, re-read and re re-read WQuiles thread on his PM 1236 and began looking earnestly at that one. It really looks huge! To the point that I feel kinda intimidated by it so I keep going back to the 1127.



When I upgraded from my HF 9x20 to my current lathe, a Vectrax 14x40, I was real intimidated by the size. After about a week of playing with the bigger lathe it didn't seem so big at all. You'll get use to the lathe very quickly. My suggestion would be to go with the PM1236. Lathes 12x and larger are in a whole different class of lathe and the fit and finish are better than the smaller lathes. At least that's what I found when I was searching for a bigger lathe. Of course, there are always exceptions. The PM1236 is going to be a lot more rigid than the PM1127. One of the main reasons I upgraded from the 9x20 is because of the lack of rigidity on the smaller lathes.

Anyway, good luck with your decision and as they say "any lathe is better than no lathe". :thumbsup:

Ed


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## BVH (Aug 9, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



precisionworks said:


> Where/when does it stop ... when you take that final ride (in the black hearse) :nana:



Good one!



> One thing to remember about any lathe you buy today, no matter what the size or brand, is that you'll spend around 40 hours on a Chinese lathe getting it tweaked.



If I remember anything about my reading, I remember you saying this in many threads and I'm prepared to spend the time. In fact, I will enjoy this work just as much as the machining. I enjoy keeping all my equipment clean and looking new.



> Power cross is neither here nor there IMO - I rarely engage mine, as it's a lot faster to spin the dial than it is to change the feed gear setting & try to find the correct infeed speed. If you're facing the end of a 24" shaft - that's a different story.



This is good to know. Not having any experience, I was assuming it was a must-have feature.



> You're on the right track & you are certain to make a good decision, whichever machine is decided upon.



Thank you Barry, I appreciate the feedback!




metalbutcher said:


> When I upgraded from my HF 9x20 to my current lathe, a Vectrax 14x40, I was real intimidated by the size. After about a week of playing with the bigger lathe it didn't seem so big at all. You'll get use to the lathe very quickly.



This feedback really helps me! Thank you!


For Wquiles and others with similar gear-driven machines, are you having to wear hearing protection full or nearly full-time?


I remember reading about someone removing the "swing gap" from his machine and swearing he would never do it again due to the issues of re-establishing alignment. I think I understand that a removable swing gap is a positive thing in that you could turn something larger than you could on the same machine without one. Is it a positive factor and do any of you use this feature?


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## StrikerDown (Aug 9, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

My 14 X 40 (PM1440) is big enough... except I wish I had a 3.5: spindle bore!

Hearing protection isn't needed especially with the oil bath gears. If your making too much noise check your feed and speed!


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## precisionworks (Aug 9, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> are you having to wear hearing protection full or nearly full-time?


100% of the time when my 14" gear head is turning any speed above 500 rpm. It will wake the dead at 2000 rpm, and get lots of people off life support at only 1000 rpm. Chinese machines use straight cut gears, which are the most noisy & the cheapest to make. The Haas TL-1 at work uses helical gears & you cannot hear it running at 2000 rpm ... problem is that it costs 10x more than any Chinese machine


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## BVH (Aug 9, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Wquiles, how did the Mason Neoprene feet work out in the end? Did they settle in to the point where you didn't need to widen your stand bases? I'm 6'2" and am assuming I will need to raise any machine I get.

Another point of consideration on which machine to get is that with the $1000 that I would not spend on the 1236, I could get a fair amount of tooling.


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## precisionworks (Aug 9, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> with the $1000 that I would not spend on the 1127, I could get a fair amount of tooling.


+1

You'll need that $1000, and another, and another :nana:


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## metalbutcher (Aug 9, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> Another point of consideration on which machine to get is that with the $1000 that I would not spend on the 1236, I could get a fair amount of tooling.



True but you don't need to spend that $1000 right away. These lathes come fairly well equipped with 3 and 4-jaw chucks, live centers, dead centers, face plates, etc.....
All you really need to get started are a few HSS blank tool bits and a grinder to grind them. The first upgrade would probably be a QCTP set if your lathe doesn't come with one. Gradually add on more tooling as you need it. That's how I did it so it's not such a big money hit in one shot. YMMV 

Ed


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## StrikerDown (Aug 9, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



precisionworks said:


> 100% of the time when my 14" gear head is turning any speed above 500 rpm. It will wake the dead at 2000 rpm, and get lots of people off life support at only 1000 rpm. Chinese machines use straight cut gears, which are the most noisy & the cheapest to make. The Haas TL-1 at work uses helical gears & you cannot hear it running at 2000 rpm ... problem is that it costs 10x more than any Chinese machine


 
You really need ears? My 1440 is almost as quiet as my old HF 7x10 mini lathe was! It's about as loud as the RF-31 mill... maybe just a tad louder but not much. Running 2000 rpm is a bit louder but I don't run it that fast often.

Maybe I'm just deaf from all the machine noise... or the Harley!


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## BVH (Aug 9, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



metalbutcher said:


> True but you don't need to spend that $1000 right away. These lathes come fairly well equipped with 3 and 4-jaw chucks, live centers, dead centers, face plates, etc.....
> All you really need to get started are a few HSS blank tool bits and a grinder to grind them. The first upgrade would probably be a QCTP set if your lathe doesn't come with one. Gradually add on more tooling as you need it. That's how I did it so it's not such a big money hit in one shot. YMMV
> 
> Ed


 
Agreed! The 1127 comes with everything you mentioned incl a cheap (from what I understand) 40 position, quick change tool post. I remember grinding HSS bits back when I used the lathe years ago. Should I use HSS or just buy some Latheinserts.com carbide bit holders and bits?


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## precisionworks (Aug 9, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> Should I use HSS or just buy some Latheinserts.com carbide bit holders and bits?



That depends on your end game. 

If you want to be up & running fast, use inserts. Most production shops stopped using HSS in the 1960's, although I still had to demonstrate the ability to grind a tool and make it cut in 1971. Probably ground a dozen or so over the past 40 years, which is to say rarely. The advantages are extraordinarily low cost per cut, total consistency of approach & relief angles, wide selection of chipbreakers/substrates/coatings/sizes/nose profile/etc. A typical coated carbide insert will run at least twice as fast as HSS, and often 3X, 4X or 5X faster. The edge lasts a LONG time.

OTOH, if you see yourself as a machinist might during WWI, in a factory full of lathes driven by an overhead lineshaft & wide flat belt, learning to grind HSS may be appealing. Lots of members on the home shop forums swear by HSS and all the attendant virtues - such as turning at a slower speed prolongs your enjoyment of the job (no kidding). If you decide to run HSS, it is mandatory that you buy an Atlas, Logan, South Bend, other other American machine - their highest speeds are quite slow & entirely suited to HSS.


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## BVH (Aug 10, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Hmmm, was Barry beating around the bush a bit....being a little non-committal....not ready to render an opinion.... I really had to read and re-read his post to arrive at what I think his opinion is. It was tough and I was really sweating it, but looks like carbide is the way to go.


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## wquiles (Aug 10, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> Wquiles, how did the Mason Neoprene feet work out in the end? Did they settle in to the point where you didn't need to widen your stand bases? I'm 6'2" and am assuming I will need to raise any machine I get.
> 
> Another point of consideration on which machine to get is that with the $1000 that I would not spend on the 1236, I could get a fair amount of tooling.




I am on business travel - sorry for the delay. I have had the PM1236 for a couple of years now, and except for wanting an even heavier 14x lathe, I really can't complain with the machine I got now. Maybe I got lucky, but my lathe arrived pretty much ready to run "as is", without needing much work at all.

I am still using the LOW range of speeds in my PM1236 so my max spindle speeds are about 1200 RPM., but as Barry pointed out, with the cut gears the lathe is definitely noisier than my 7x and 8x prior to it, and of course at higher RPM's is louder. I have very good hearing for my age, and I has always been very careful with my hearing, and if I am using my lathe for any significant amount of time, I do wear light ear plugs, to cut down the noise level a little bit.

As to inserts, I am with Barry 100%. Except for the odd/unique job that needs a special profile/edge/curve/etc., carbide inserts are "the" way to go - sticking to the old HSS no longer makes sense today, with the vast selection of inserts/holders available. Here in this sub-forum we have touch on this subject of what inserts to buy/use many times, so I will not repeat things here.

I am still happy with my PM1236, and yes, those Mason feet helped raised the lathe to a more comfortable level for me (I am 5'-8" tall), but I still feel the lathe would perform better with a wider and "much" heavier base than what it comes with.

Will


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## BVH (Aug 10, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Thanks Will!


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## precisionworks (Aug 10, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> I really had to read and re-read his post to arrive at what I think his opinion is. It was tough and I was really sweating it, but looks like carbide is the way to go.


+1

I don't mean to be harsh or sarcastic to anyone who uses HSS tooling, as some lathe operators (for specific reasons) choose HSS when then could just as easily select coated carbide inserts. It does concern me when an up & coming machinist considers HSS, as that is truly an anachronism which delays reaching the goal - which is to make chips. Learning to properly & efficiently run a lathe (or mill) is intimidating enough without adding yet another roadblock, that being the correct grinding of HSS tool bits.

The HSS users take great pride in their ability to grind a tool, and that skill is something to be proud of as few people today have the ability to do that. Grinding twist drills is a similar skill, although more difficult, and much like grinding HSS tooling it is a dying art. It took me at least six months & well over 1,000 ruined drill bits to acquire this skill - most employers would have fired me long before that, but my boss had unlimited patience.

Why is drill bit grinding being mentioned? Because it's a skill that I use almost never, another anachronism. I insist on using razor sharp twist drills, and any less than sharp drill goes immediately to either the Lisle or Darex drill grinder, which produces a factory fresh edge in seconds. A similar edge could be produced by hand grinding but it takes many times longer & the edge is never as perfect as that which is generated by the machine. Any person who can correctly hand grind a twist drill gets my respect, but that doesn't mean that the process is efficient - exactly like hand grinding HSS tooling. Even if a person spends another hundred dollars or more for a carbide tool grinder, they are still limited by the physical characteristics of HSS tooling.

As Will Q said:



> carbide inserts are "the" way to go - sticking to the old HSS no longer makes sense today, with the vast selection of inserts/holders available.


+1


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## StrikerDown (Aug 10, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

+2 Carbide inserts.

+1 on sharp drill bits. Even my cheapo Drill Dr. makes factory sharp (re-sharp) bits in seconds. Plus it splits the point making the bits work better in drilling metal!


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## PEU (Aug 10, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



precisionworks said:


> the Lisle or Darex drill grinder



Photos? 


Pablo


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## metalbutcher (Aug 10, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



precisionworks said:


> I don't mean to be harsh or sarcastic to anyone who uses HSS tooling,....



Barry,

No harm done. I actually agree with almost everything you said. I hardly ever use HSS tool bits anymore. I think I mentioned HSS bits because they are cheaper to purchase than carbide tooling and I thought the OP was trying to save some money on tooling after plunking down some serious money on a new lathe. My bad. 

Ed


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## BVH (Aug 11, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Thank you, Will for the nice phone conversation!

A little off-topic. Is there anything to be aware of (negative-wise) of the Starrett 796 electronic mics? I noticed on Starretts' site in their catalog, that they're touting the 796 "reissue". Was there something wrong with the original 796's? Is the 796 a good quality unit and are the electronic mics the way to go or stick with the old tried-n-tru?


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## wquiles (Aug 11, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> Thank you, Will for the nice phone conversation!


You are welcome. It was great to talk to you in real-time


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## choffman (Aug 12, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

My $.02 FWIW.
The intimidation of the larger machine will go away the more you use the machine. Once it's gone....it's gone. The feeling you get in the pit of your stomach when you're standing in front of the machine and realize it's juuuuust not quite big enough can happen over and over and over......
That feeling is then followed by the kicking you give yourself on your third trip to the machine shop. It happens the moment you add the bills of the first two trips to your current one and realize it would have covered the difference for the larger machine. Not counting of course travel time, gas, waiting for them to get around to it, etc.. 
I don't think there's ever been a time when I've said to myself, "I sure hate that I've bought the right/big enough tool for the job". Well, except maybe if I had just discovered that it was stolen. :scowl:


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## Ziuck (Aug 12, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

I had the 8x12 HF lathe and went to the 11x27-LB this past May. I really considered the 12x36 but ended up with the 11x27 because of the variable speed, length and cost. 

The 11x27LB running at 1800RPM is quieter then my 8x14 running at 400RPM. Being able to dial my speed on the fly has been very handy. I can start cutting and if I decide I don't like the finish I can just ramp up the speed a little. 

I tapped holes on the cabinet and installed 4 Mason feet on each one. It keeps it very stable.

I replaced the controller with a KBMG-212D so I could get regenerative braking. What a difference. Spin the dial down and it stops within 3 seconds from full speed. Factory controller would spin down slowly. Scored one on ebay for $40 shipped!

There have been times were I wish I had the 12x36. Back plates have to be purchased from PM or made from scratch. You don't have the ability to purchase them from anywhere like you can for D1-4/5. It is not a DIN C3/C4 spindle like PM states. There isn't a taper on it. This really isn't a problem per say, just a pain if I want to use a new chuck.

The only negative I have run into on my 11x27LB is there has been some flex in the compound when parting. I can see the compound lift a little when the blade grabs the work. I have tried tightening the gibs and the bolts in the t-slots. I think the flex is from the T-slots. I haven't put a lot of time trying to solve it yet. It's been way to hot in my garage this summer!

Also the back splash sticks out 3-4" from the head stock. This stops the carriage from moving all the way to the headstock. I think this is left over from when the motor used to stick out of the head stock. My motor is completely inside it. I will be cutting out that section of the back splash.


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## precisionworks (Aug 12, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

IMO, the best approach, as well as the most cost effective, is to buy the 12x36, pull the motor & sell it on ebay, install a 3hp 3ph motor ($125-$150 delivered) and an ACTech SMVector drive ($400.40 for the sealed NEMA 4X model from Wolf Automation). Then you have it all


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## BVH (Aug 12, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Ziuck, knowing what you know now back when you were buying, would you purchase the 1236 instead of the 1127?

Barry, I'm guessing the ACTech drive "makes" or somehow simulates 3-Phase power from my 240V, single phase panel to feed the new motor? I'd still have the gear-drive noise but is the idea that I could typically use a lower RPM (more power from the 3HP motor at lower speeds) to end up with a quieter lathe. Or is the conversion you're talking about simply to end up with a variable speed machine?


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## precisionworks (Aug 12, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> the ACTech drive "makes" or somehow simulates 3-Phase power from my 240V, single phase panel to feed the new motor?


Exactly. 



> I'd still have the gear-drive noise but is the idea that I could typically use a lower RPM (more power from the 3HP motor at lower speeds) to end up with a quieter lathe.


Correct again. On my machine, the four top speeds are 700, 1000, 1500 & 2000. With a VFD, I would be able to dial in every single rpm in between those four fixed speeds. There is a huge speed difference between 1000 & 1500, and another between 1500 & 2000. The VFD allows fine tuning the speed in any gear so that you have exactly the rpm you want.

I used a belt drive machine for many years, and they are almost dead quiet. They are not capable of as heavy a cut as the gear head, and the chuck will sometimes stall during a heavy cut or when running a large drill or tap. New operators consider this a safety feature, just like too small a motor in a car is "safer" because the car cannot go too fast. You'll quickly get tired of a belt drive as your skills increase, especially if you do larger work, like to take more aggressive cuts, or need to quickly drill a large diameter hole.

You may want to buy the 12x36 and try it for a while without changing over to the VFD. It may be quiet enough as it is, and the speed selections may be just fine for the work you do. If not, adding the 3ph motor & VFD can be done at any time later on.


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## BVH (Aug 12, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Ahhhh, yes! I remember the small SB I worked with. It was an old 3-step, 2 or 3" wide, flat leather belt drive and it would definitely stall on occasion. The good ole days. I kinda had the same thing in mind regarding the VFD. Down the road a piece!


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## Ziuck (Aug 15, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> Ziuck, knowing what you know now back when you were buying, would you purchase the 1236 instead of the 1127?
> 
> Barry, I'm guessing the ACTech drive "makes" or somehow simulates 3-Phase power from my 240V, single phase panel to feed the new motor? I'd still have the gear-drive noise but is the idea that I could typically use a lower RPM (more power from the 3HP motor at lower speeds) to end up with a quieter lathe. Or is the conversion you're talking about simply to end up with a variable speed machine?



If you have the money and the room go with the 12x36. If you want variable speed swap out the motor and install a VFD. You will be better off in the long run. The variable speed is nice, but I don't tend to go below the lowest speed of the 12x36. Coming from the 8x14 I wasn't sure how low I needed to thread slow. The 65rpm is slow enough.

I can't answer on the noise of the 12x36, but the 11x27 is quiet. I can hear my radio playing while using it and not have it blaring.

The primary reason I say go with the 12x36 is the availability of parts and off the shelf back plates. Also if you plan on working with items close to the high side of the 11x27 go bigger.


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## BVH (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Whether I get the 1127 or 1236, I'll need to raise it 4" or better. Someone on another forum suggested using 1/2" plate to cover the entire bottom surface of each stand with 4" extensions front and back (tapering in from zero overhang at the outer sides of the stands to about 4" overhang at the center of the stand. This is where the Footmaster GD-80F would mount - so 4 total Footmasters at front and rear centers of stands - 4" out front and back for a wider footprint. The GD-80's have an 1100 lb max rating and a recommended rating of 550 lb each in a set of 4 for 2200 lbs. The 1236 is 1250 lbs and I'm guessing another 150 lbs for stands and sheet metal. Another 100 lbs for whatever material I might be working with so maybe 1500 lbs load worse-cast scenairo. 

http://www.footmaster.net/products/detail.asp?bic_code=Leveling&small_code=GD&p_name=GD-80F

Sounds like a nice, clean way to raise and level it and be able to move it if I need access to the elect panel, motor or whatever else on the back of the machine. (My installation will be against a wall)

Opinions?


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## precisionworks (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Those are very nice casters: http://www.clevelandcaster.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=14&IDCategory=3

My only concern is how long it will take for the polyurethane leveling pad to reach full compression & stop moving. You may want to ask the manufacturer about this. Lots of lathes are backed up to a wall, & many never leave that spot until the machine is sold or the owner moves to another location. If you do decide on stationary levelers, here's an easy way to both raise & level:












2"x2"x.250" square tube, with riser posts made from 2" diameter HRS or CRS.


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## Davo J (Sep 7, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

I cut some 100mm box tubing down the middle to make channel and machined my own feed up. You could use store bought channel as well to raise it up. The feet would be a good first project, you could weld the threads in like I did, or thread them.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/lathe-mill-adjustable-feet-pictures-114836/

Dave

Edit
Have the feet front and back instead of set in at the ends where the factory holes are, give it a wider foot print.


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## precisionworks (Sep 7, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Those are the best looking shop built levelers I've ever seen


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## wquiles (Sep 7, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



precisionworks said:


> Those are the best looking shop built levelers I've ever seen


+1


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## BVH (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Thank you very much Darkzero/Will for showing me your 1236 today and giving me so much of your time and thoughts. I really appreciate it and it's going to generate a call to Matt tomorrow to cancel the 1127 order and place one for a 1236. With all the pics of the 1236 I've seen in the last month or more, I still could not nail down the size of this machine. It is not as big in reality as I thought it would be. For fun, the number I'd put on my guess is that I was over estimating the size by 15-20%, which, for whatever reason, was holding me back from getting one. Standing next to it, I was not intimidated as I thought I would be. I know now that if I had bought the 1127 and happen to have seen a 1236, I'd be kicking myself.

Thank you all for the ideas for raising and leveling!


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## Davo J (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Thanks Barry and Will, 
The bottoms are just a bit of 50mm round bar machined and painted to look like they are 2 piece. Having them solid saves any hassles of moving/settling.
I machined the threads off the thread rod at one end and pressed them into the base before plug welding them for the bottom. Even left as press fit would do for people that don't have a welder.

Dave


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## precisionworks (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Dave,

There's much to be said for solid steel leveling supports since they don't compress like an elastomer mount. Even on steel a lathe bed will take a few days to a few weeks to settle into place.



> I still could not nail down the size of this machine.


It often helps if you stand on it 






(Lucas Precision 6" horizontal boring mill)


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## HarryN (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

I am certainly not a professional machinist, but will throw in my opinion anyway. One of the things a person learns quickly is that a great deal of the "result" is how consistently a person can turn the handles for a long period of time. You can be 90% of the way through a part, and a very small glitch in your consistency can dramatically decrease the results on a part.

In addition, since most people cannot precisely control their way through very many contours, a manual machine virtually forces you into buying a lot of tooling and making a lot of jigs and holders.

To my way of thinking, a hobbyist is much better off purchasing a cnc controlled machine rather than a manual one. The cnc control will not lift the burden of knowledge needed to machine, but it will lift some of the burden of requiring you personally to attempt things that a computer can do better. You wouldn't ever imagine controlling the temperature of your house by having someone spend their time flipping a switch on and off by how they were "feeling". This is a task long ago delegated to an automatic device which does the non - interesting work for you - and does it better because it does not get bored doing it.

In the same way, a computer controlled machine is not taking away your enjoyment of being able to make parts, not the higher level intelligence needed to do it well, it just takes away the mundane portions. It also can save money on tooling.

If it were me, I would pick up a cnc machine, even if this took me down to one machine (mill or lathe) to do more tasks.


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## wquiles (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



HarryN said:


> I am certainly not a professional machinist, but will throw in my opinion anyway. One of the things a person learns quickly is that a great deal of the "result" is how consistently a person can turn the handles for a long period of time. You can be 90% of the way through a part, and a very small glitch in your consistency can dramatically decrease the results on a part.
> 
> In addition, since most people cannot precisely control their way through very many contours, a manual machine virtually forces you into buying a lot of tooling and making a lot of jigs and holders.
> 
> ...


 
I feel the same way, specially after using a manual lathe for 6-7 years now. The "only" problem with this line of thinking is the cost/price of the CNC setup. For the work envelope that I am using, I "need" a 12x plus size lathe. But when I start looking for a CNC lathe in the 12x range, I quickly "forget" about the whole thing for another 6 months .....

So yes, cost aside, I would be far more productive, I could offer more mods/builds, at a higher quality and with great repeatability, with a CNC setup. I just can't afford one yet ...

Will


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## precisionworks (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> when I start looking for a CNC lathe in the 12x range, I quickly "forget" about the whole thing for another 6 months .....


+1

A CNC lathe or mill is just like a boat ... because it is much better to have a friend with a boat than it is to have your own 

I buy CNC time if the parts are easy to make, or have the shop do the entire run if they are more complicated. For what I do the entry level Haas TL-1 at $30k is a bit too small, and the TL-3W is just right on everything but the cost (over $60k).


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## BVH (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

I'd love a CNC machine but if that was the only option, I would not be getting a lathe at all.


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## rmteo (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> I'd love a CNC machine but if that was the only option, I would not be getting a lathe at all.


There are CNC lathes and then there are CNC lathes (more correctly cnc turning centers).


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## wquiles (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



rmteo said:


> There are CNC lathes and then there are CNC lathes (more correctly cnc turning centers).


 
Impressive, but I don't need anything "that" fancy. In fact, I would be happy with something less than a true CNC setup. I would be happy with a way to automate my current lathe/mill operations - my idea (if I ever have the time to pursue it) would be to use small motors to drive the X & Y in the lathe, and use the glass scales from the DRO for relative and absolute position (at least to about 0.0002") as a closed feedback loop. Being a EE I know enough to create my own controllers, power supplies, board layout, solder, etc.. I would of course program the sequences to account for the slack (since this would not use the higher precision ball screws), and something like this should be easily be driven from a small PC/laptop (heck, soon even a tablet!). I have even though up about a simple interpreter language that would be easy to use which would allow for "scripts" to be saved so that I can repeat operations/steps, and combine smaller scripts into larger ones for more complex operations. For threading, an optical sensor reading position on the outer surface of the spindle would allow for accurate threading as well, as it could adjust the speed of the "Y" to match (proportionally) how many turns per inch are required. I recently (last year or so) saw a company that had a retrofit kit that did a lot of these functions, almost "exactly" like my idea, so I know it is doable/practical, and at a fraction of the cost of a full CNC setup. 

If only I had time. I can dream, can't I?

Will


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## BVH (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

OK, Will, once you've developed this wonderful sounding system, can I get in-line to buy one of your "kits" that I know you're just dying to supply to everyone here?

I just confirmed with Matt that he had one 1236 left in the order that is in Customs right now so maybe I'll be "lathed" by the first week or so in Oct! I can't wait after having seen Darkzeros' machine!


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## rmteo (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

I don't "need" anything quite that fancy either, but I can dream of wanting one. Seriously though, having owned/operated CNC turning centers (as well machining centers) which were not quite as fancy as the one in the video (single spindle, single turret, no live tooling, no C or Y axis), these machines are a whole different ballgame altogether.

Some points regarding your post:

a. interpreter language - industry stand "G" codes.
b. co-ordinated spindle and Y axis - single point threading and/or rigid tapping.
c. slack - backlash, eliminated by the use of ballscrews.


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## darkzero (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> Thank you very much Darkzero/Will for showing me your 1236 today and giving me so much of your time and thoughts. I really appreciate it and it's going to generate a call to Matt tomorrow to cancel the 1127 order and place one for a 1236. With all the pics of the 1236 I've seen in the last month or more, I still could not nail down the size of this machine. It is not as big in reality as I thought it would be. For fun, the number I'd put on my guess is that I was over estimating the size by 15-20%, which, for whatever reason, was holding me back from getting one. Standing next to it, I was not intimidated as I thought I would be. I know now that if I had bought the 1127 and happen to have seen a 1236, I'd be kicking myself.


 
It was great meeting the both of you. Again I wasn't trying to "sell" you on getting the 1236 (just like Will Quiles kindly "sold" me when I talked to him when deciding to get mine). Just pointing out some of the "better" reasons to get it over the 1127 as when I made my decision to make the change. It's good investment, might as well make the best choice while you can, not that that easy for most to upgrade because they felt they made the wrong decision. After a few weeks & if you ever get to see other larger machines in person, the 1236 really isn't a "big" lathe at all. I'm sure you would be happy going with either one but glad you have made your decision.

Don't be shy to ask lots more questions, plenty of helpful guys here as you already know.

What I did forget to ask you is that I thought I rememebered your SN somehow. And I remembered just the day before you came. I wanted to ask you about this: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...quot-Carbon-Arc-Anti-Aircraft-light-from-WWII

I rememeber that FS thread, didn't know it sold though, too bad you still didn't have it so I could see it in person! 



BVH said:


> I just confirmed with Matt that he had one 1236 left in the order that is in Customs right now so maybe I'll be "lathed" by the first week or so in Oct! I can't wait after having seen Darkzeros' machine!


 
See, the 1236 is "better"! 

Congrats Bob!


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## BVH (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



darkzero said:


> What I did forget to ask you is that I thought I rememebered your SN somehow. And I remembered just the day before you came. I wanted to ask you about this: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...quot-Carbon-Arc-Anti-Aircraft-light-from-WWII
> 
> I rememeber that FS thread, didn't know it sold though, too bad you still didn't have it so I could see it in person!
> 
> Congrats Bob!


 
Thank you, Will!

I had a great time with the 60" machine. If I still lived in Burbank, I'd probably still have it. If you're ever interested in seeing one up close, and possibly getting a chance to change the rods during a gig and getting info from the most knowledgeable person in the country on these lights, I can hook you up with Bob Meza, in Canyon Country. He helped me find my light and gave me the training to run and maintain it. He is a great guy and loves to show his light. If you see the beam from one in the San Fernando, Santa Clarita or Simi Valleys, 95% chance it's Bob. Stop by and say hi for me. You will see the only fully restored to original configuration, 9.5 on the "10" scale, G.E Carbon Arc in the world. His has one of the exceptionally few lights that actually work with the original wired "remote control". It is quite an ingenious device for the 1940's and even today. Picture a surveyor's tripod. On it, is a big metal box on top of which is a pair of binoculars. As the operator scanned the skies with the binocs, the light would follow his every move. Where he looked, the light shined. If you'd like a "personal" introduction, just let me know. Not sure if you saw my original "purchase" thread?

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?170556-OH-MY!-WHAT-HAVE-I-GONE-AND-DONE-NOW


My understanding is that my light is for sale again. Just $20,000 and it can be yours. Mine was about an 8 or 8.5 on the "10" scale and did not have the remote.


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## BVH (Sep 13, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Will & Will, what brand and type of oil are you running in the gearbox and carriage of your 1236?


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## wquiles (Sep 13, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> Will & Will, what brand and type of oil are you running in the gearbox and carriage of your 1236?


I am using the correct fluid, which is:

Mobil DTE Oil Heavy Medium
Premium R&O (rust and oxidation inhibited)
Circulating Oil
Heavy Medium
ISO 68 (SAE 20)


Will


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## precisionworks (Sep 13, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> Mobil DTE


+1

Vactra for way oil & DTE 26 (ISO VG68) for the gear cases. 

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENINDMOMobil_DTE_20_Series.aspx


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## darkzero (Sep 13, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Same here, DTE26 & Vactra No. 2. No extreme hot or cold climate changes in your area so you should go with the same weight. Which reminds me again, I need a trip up there soon for my sand fix. 

You can order some from Enco with the free shipping code. I usually pick it up from the local MSC outlet.


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## BVH (Sep 13, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*




darkzero said:


> Same here, DTE26 & Vactra No. 2. No extreme hot or cold climate changes in your area so you should go with the same weight. Which reminds me again, I need a trip up there soon for my sand fix.



The next 3 months are the best weather months of the year!. As the long-time "locals" always say: (Not me, of course, I've been here only 3 years) "All the people who take summers up here frequently "enjoy" the foggy and overcast days with just a few hours of sun per day. As soon as the "tourists" leave (end of August), the weather turns beautiful (sunny all day with temps in the mid 70's) and we locals can enjoy it without all the tourists here".


Me....I'd enjoy warm, sunny days with or without the vacationers! 98% or more of the days since May have been foggy and overcast. We may get a few hours a day of sun but the temp hits only about 62 to 64. There was no "summer" this year. 

Darn, forgot to ask what cooling oil I could use by-hand until I figure out what I'm going to do with an automated system. Should I just get the Accu Lube 3000 and use it with a brush?

Anyone install a 240 Volt Hobbs meter on their machine?


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## precisionworks (Sep 14, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> what cooling oil I could use by-hand


A spray bottle of coolant is popular for both lathe & mill work: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/PLEWSLUBRIMATIC-Lubricant-5AAP0?Pid=search



> Anyone install a 240 Volt Hobbs meter on their machine?


Hour meters are mostly seen on automated machining centers running 24/7/365. On a manual lathe the gearbox oil is usually changed on a seasonal basis, something like once a year. 

Pay special attention to keeping the ways & leadscrews clean & well oiled. Most machines have a number of oil buttons that need to be pumped full with something like Mobil Velocite 10 (ISO VG20). The ways should be wiped clean whenever the swarf buildup is noticeable and Vactra 2 reapplied. Flexible spout pump oilers are an easy way to do this and the Dutton-Lainson Goldenrod is the nicest one I've found. http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=998016717


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## PEU (Sep 14, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> I'd love a CNC machine but if that was the only option, I would not be getting a lathe at all.


 
Or, you can buy a 11x27 and make it CNC 











This is the 1st unit I made with my partners being shown at an expo early this year, took a weiss 280vf 11x27 (my guess the source of precision mathews lathes) and removed all the unnecessary parts, added ballscrews, couplings, custom sheetmetalry, VFD, 3 phase motor, custom electronics cabinet, MPG remote, a lot of elbow grease and now its CNC 


Pablo


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## wquiles (Sep 14, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Very nice looking. What was the price before and after, roughly?


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## BVH (Sep 14, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Peu, that is one purdy machine!

Barry, thanks for the Ace oil can link!

For the 1236 owners, what lubricates the tapered spindle bearings? Is there a continuous feed of oil to them, greased like the front wheel bearings on rear-wheel drive automobiles or?


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## wquiles (Sep 14, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> Peu, that is one purdy machine!
> 
> Barry, thanks for the Ace oil can link!
> 
> For the 1236 owners, what lubricates the tapered spindle bearings? Is there a continuous feed of oil to them, greased like the front wheel bearings on rear-wheel drive automobiles or?


 
As the gears rotate inside the gear box (since the lower part of the gears are submerged in fluid), they "splash" fluid all over the interior - this splashing lubricates everything inside the box.

Will


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## BVH (Sep 14, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Ahhhh, the old Briggs & Stratton lawn mower lubricating system!


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## PEU (Sep 14, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



wquiles said:


> Very nice looking. What was the price before and after, roughly?


 
Fully equipped manual Weiss 280VF lathe is sold here around USD2900+TAX, we swapped this unit for an used Romi Centur CNC Lathe worth in the local market USD14000, we priced the BP1 lathe at USD13500+TAX

Keep in mind that local prices for used machinery some times is 5X to 10X more expensive than USA prices, and before you think about it, no, is not permitted to import used machinery...


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Sep 14, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> Ahhhh, the old Briggs & Stratton lawn mower lubricating system!


To a certain price point lathes use splash lube, beyond that they go to a pressurized system with automotive style oil filter. Some lathes have a separate oil reservoir for both the front & rear spindle bearings (Jet uses that system on their belt drive machines). South Bends use a Gitts oil cup & a wick to carry oil to the bearing surfaces. Really old machines (pre 1900 mostly, but as late as WWI) used babbit bearings that were poured in place.

http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks4/babbitt/index.html


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## DaFABRICATA (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

BVH, I'm very excited for you!!

The 1236 was the machine I was looking into for a while and even have the money set aside for. Unfortunately, after much thought and consideration, I'll likely have to get the 1127VF. I tend to move a lot and it would be much easier to move 650 continuously than 1250lbs. Also being able to use a standard 110 outlet is a plus since I never know what the next place I rent will have going on. From the videos, the 1127 sounds very quite.

It's a given that I'll want the larger 1236, but at this point Id rather have the 1127 than nothing at all.
I plan to work on lights no larger than the surefire M-series (M6) so the 1127 should be fine.

My friend bought an OLD Craftsman 109 mini-lathe and lets me use it all the time. He paid $100 for it and I spent several days making improvements and doing a complete basic rebuild. Its much better than it was when he first got it, but is FAR from ideal and requires CONSTANT tweeking to keep any type of accuracy....its better than nothing though.

I wish so bad I could buy the 1236, but have a feeling it would become a burden due to the extreme weight and size. The 1127, I can move myself and even small enough for an apartment worst case senario....luckily it'll be going in my shop.

What did Matt say the lead time was on getting the 1127 before you changed your mind? i really want to order it soon.....just wish I could go bigger (thats what she said)oo:


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## BVH (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



DaFABRICATA said:


> BVH, I'm very excited for you!! Thank you!
> 
> The 1236 was the machine I was looking into for a while and even have the money set aside for. Unfortunately, after much thought and consideration, I'll likely have to get the 1127VF. I tend to move a lot and it would be much easier to move 650 continuously than 1250lbs. Also being able to use a standard 110 outlet is a plus since I never know what the next place I rent will have going on. From the videos, the 1127 sounds very quite.
> 
> ...


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## BVH (Sep 21, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Just in case you need the orange Mason MLS-1000 machine leveling feet and haven't seen the Enco sale on them, They are 10.99 each and free shipping.


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## darkzero (Sep 22, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> Just in case you need the orange Mason MLS-1000 machine leveling feet and haven't seen the Enco sale on them, They are 10.99 each and free shipping.



They go on sale often with Enco. If you are ordering 8 for your lathe, you'll also get a quantity discount on top of that. Well they have been since I purchased mine.


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## BVH (Sep 22, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

I bought 4 of the Footmaster GD80F casters and plan on 1/2" plating the bottoms of each pedestal and extending the plates out 4" in the front and back (where the footmasters will go) to get a wider stance. I'm just not sure about the approx 20" span on the 1/2" plate so I figured I'd thread in a Mason in the middle of the span and just run it down until it's snug on the floor so as not to disrupt the leveling of the machine. To try to keep my "stumbling" on the plate extensions to a minimum, I plan to taper them on a 45 from the front edges of the pedestal to the 4" long front of the plate where the caster will mount. Not sure how well I'm describing this? The caster pads will sit on top of a 3 or 4" square piece of 1/2" plate because I'm going to try to get away with not removing my super dense, padless carpet where the lathe sits. I just don't know if this will cause significant movement. This system will give me about 5 1/8" of rise.

Any thoughts on the 20", 1/2" plate span with a load of around 800lbs? (I'm making as assumption that 2/3" of the 1250 lbs weight of the machine will be on the drive side so it's the worse-case scenario.

Hurray! I just got forced air heat to the garage! No more frozen feet and hands when its 50 outside and 50 inside during winter. Even when the outside heats up to 65, the garage would never get more than about 57.


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## precisionworks (Sep 22, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

You will have less deflection with the 2x2 tube.


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## BVH (Sep 22, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Ok, Ok, I'm catching your drift, Barry (Said in a completely humorous tone) You provided a pic earlier and it looks like a good method, but at the time, I would have had to find a welding shop and work with them to get it done. Not a big deal but I just didn't feel like doing it. With the plate method, I could have done it all myself. But now, I found a friend of a friend who is a great welder so I will probably have him over to make some 2 x 2, 1/4" wall risers with the front & back extensions.

One question. In your pic, it looks as though you've used a single piece of tubing running under the middle of each desk pedestal. With the assumption of the heavy end of the lathe being approx 800 lbs, would you make a framework to fit under the entire perimeter footprint of the stand or would the single central tube be sufficient? Another thought, a central tube with cross arms extending out to the 4 original pedestal bolt holes.


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## precisionworks (Sep 22, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> You provided a pic earlier and it looks like a good method, but at the time, I would have had to find a welding shop


:thinking:

No welding on that support. The 2x2 tube bolts to the tabs on the base of the lathe & the 2" solid round stock risers bolt to the square tube. 









> probably have him over to make some 2 x 2, 1/4" wall risers with the front & back extensions.


That surely is a hard way to do an easy job 

Band saw the risers out of 2" HRS and drill & tap one end for leveler feet. Drill & tap the other end for attachment to the square tube. You'll have all four done in no time.



> With the assumption of the heavy end of the lathe being approx 800 lbs, would you make a framework to fit under the entire perimeter footprint of the stand or would the single central tube be sufficient? Another thought, a central tube with cross arms extending out to the 4 original pedestal bolt holes.


2x2 square tube with .250" wall is substantially strong, but a larger square tube is even stronger. As much as I like over building everything that's a pretty light load for some heavy tube.


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## BVH (Sep 22, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

When I look back at Will Q's pics of the bottom of his stand, it's a little difficult to determine, but there appears to be no meat/structural steel running along the front and back sides of the stand. The only clearly visible meat is running along the sides, front to back, where the bolt down holes are. I would think I need to transfer the load from the sides to the middle if I'm going to use the steel tube down the middle, front to back?

Don't remember how to directly link to a post but this is close:

Post 74

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-lathe-...-Precision-Matthews-12x36-.../page2


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## precisionworks (Sep 22, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*






You are exactly right, there's no way to use a single tube under the stand. Probably the easiest approach is one 2x2 tube under each mounting area.


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## BVH (Sep 23, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Hoping for "an end of the 1st week of Oct" shipping date on the 1236 - we'll see. I think I'm the last one to order and get one on this shipment. Here's my West facing wall "before" pic. I cut down my 8' Gladiator bench to 6'. I'll just wheel the 3rd cabinet with all the oil on it down to the basement storage area and I should end up with about 14" clearance between the lathe cabinet the the door casing. 240 outlet is wired, just waiting to choose what plug configuration to use. Got my FAU heat piped into the garage so at least I won't freeze. Don't need A/C because it doesn't get much more than 80 degrees in summer, once in a while 85. The future mill niche is just left of the view, around the corner on the south wall. Getting very anxious!


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## BVH (Sep 23, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

The 1236's reached Matt's store today. Reportedly a 10-12 day period for all the inspections and 1-2 to ship. Looks like 3 weeks to go.


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## precisionworks (Sep 24, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*






Take a look at the wall directly behind the lathe chuck & you'll see the splatter line typical of all lathes. Some of this is the chuck grease that's ejected whenever the chucks spins fast, some is from the MQL applicator, and the remainder is TapMagic or WD-40 that finds its way onto the work & then onto the wall. The line continues up the wall & also extends in front of the machine, although the operator catches part of that.






From your photo & description the oil line will hit the wall just to the right of the dog photo & just left of the speaker. If you want the wall to continue to look clean you may want to attach some type of covering like thin gage sheet metal that can be wiped clean. Any heating/cooling contractor that makes duct work will sell you a sheet for about $60-$70 (5'x10').


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## wquiles (Sep 24, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Barry, that is also due to not using the chuck safety cover. I have always use mine (came with the PM1236, and shows removed in yours), and that completely stops that oil line. Of course, you have to clean the inside of the chuck's cover often :devil:

Here is a photo of my lathe with the chuck's safety cover:


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## precisionworks (Sep 24, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> that is also due to not using the chuck safety cover.


You are correct. The "safety cover" IMO is the worst device ever required by OSHA, TUV, or any other governmental agency.

Mine would be really hard to install as it is somewhere in the county landfill :laughing:


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## wquiles (Sep 24, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



precisionworks said:


> You are correct. The "safety cover" IMO is the worst device ever required by OSHA, TUV, or any other governmental agency.
> 
> Mine would be really hard to install as it is somewhere in the county landfill :laughing:


 
I absolutely LOVE my safety cover. I think it is great - honestly. After several years of using my lathe with it, I am used to the routine of this "extra" step, and as I said, it helps keep debris from flying all over the place


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## gadget_lover (Sep 24, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

To cope with splatter on the wall (in my case the rack) behind my lathe I installed a window shade. 

Pull it down and everything behind it is protected. Roll back up when done.

Dan


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## BVH (Sep 24, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Thanks for the heads-up. I will get some sheet or other device to install and will move "Dinah" to another location. The cover and other safety devices are usually a double edged-sword. They usually do make operations safer but they can be a royal pain to deal with.

I searched a lot last night for some of Barry's posts discussing precision ground shafts used for measuring accuracy. I'll be darned if I could find it/them. Is the correct name "lathe centering bars"? Bottom line, should I have one (seems like I should) and if so, what would be a good diameter and length for the 1236. Finally, where to buy?


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## wquiles (Sep 24, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Thomson Precision Ground Linear Shafting.

You want the 1.0" inch diameter, 6" long bar.


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## precisionworks (Sep 24, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> behind my lathe I installed a window shade. Pull it down and everything behind it is protected. Roll back up when done.


That is a spectacular idea ... with a longer shade (ceiling mounted) it could be used around the mill as well.



> The cover and other safety devices are usually a double edged-sword. They usually do make operations safer but they can be a royal pain to deal with.


+1

There's only one way to guarantee safety around a lathe - unplug it. Once the spindle is spinning safe operation depends 100% upon the operator & 0% on guards/interlocks/light curtains/etc. The HDPE job that ran last month looks dangerous:






The spinning aluminum soft jaws concerned me lots less than the spirals that piled up. _Every time_ the pile got to the size shown above the machine was stopped & the shavings pulled off. Cutting the inside tapers was potentially more dangerous:






A grooving tool (.125" wide) was fed in at a 10° angle in the space between the angled end of the jaw & the inside edge of the pulley. Performed that same op sixty times & never drew a drop of blood ... and it would be impossible to do with a cover of any type.



> should I have one (seems like I should) and if so, what would be a good diameter and length for the 1236. Finally, where to buy?


6" is the length I bought & the diameter needs to be close to that of the hole through your chuck. Drillspot was the least expensive place I could find, $40.49 for 1", $50.40 for 1.25" and $54.55 for 1.5". Whatever size you decide on make sure it's 60 Case (60 HRc): http://www.drillspot.com/products/524135/nb_sfw16x6fs102_steel_shaft


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## BVH (Sep 24, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Spindle bore should be a hair over 1.5". Does a larger diameter shaft more easily exaggerate mis-alignment errors versus a smaller shaft? Below the description, it talks about being drilled and internally threaded, or is this just Drillspots' general description of the various shafts that Thomson makes? I thought this would be a solid shaft with countersunk holes at each end for setting between centers or in the chuck and in the tailstock center? As you can tell, I've read a little about checking alignment but I obviously have a ways to go to fully understand what I'll be doing with the shaft.


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## precisionworks (Sep 24, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Thomson makes a number of variations of their 60 Case shafting & some are drilled & tapped like the example. The most basic shafting is cut off at each end without center holes & is impossible to drill & tap because of the hardness.



> Does a larger diameter shaft more easily exaggerate mis-alignment errors versus a smaller shaft?


The reading should be exactly the same for both a smaller & a larger diameter shaft. If you run the spindle while indicating (which I often do) the larger shaft can be run at a lower rpm & achieve the same peripheral speed as the smaller shaft at a higher rpm. My headstock bearings seem to settle down after about five minutes at 1000 rpm unloaded, so the shaft (and the chuck holding it) are checked at that point & any needed adjustment is made. 

One thing I've learned about the Set-Tru chuck is that it needs to be checked before any fine work is attempted. The Thomson shafting often gets used two or three times in one day as the Set-Tru chuck is tweaked back to minimum run out. 

You can easily make a test bar to check alignment between centers & that's one of the first things to check on any new machine. A good explanation here: http://www.cartertools.com/jose06.html

South Bend Publication H-3 _The Installation & Leveling of the Lathe_ is a must read even though it was published in the 1940's. http://www.wswells.com/data/howto/H-3.pdf


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## wquiles (Sep 24, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

The shaft's main use for me is to re-adjust the 6-jaw Bison set-tru before any significant work, although it can go weeks before I need to adjust it. At least for me it stays "set" for a long time with the use I give it.

Here I am checking the TIR at about 2-3" away from the face of the chuck:







Here is a short movie of the chuck showing it needs a small adjustment - TIR is about 0.0005" or a tad less:
TIR "before" adjustment

And here is the same setup, with TIR about half, after the adjustment (sorry the movie is so short at the end - basically the needle hardly moves at all):
TIR "after adjustment"


The shaft is also used to set the tool post 90deg to the chuck's centerline:











Will


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## BVH (Sep 25, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

OK, guys, bear with me here. (Not that you haven't. You've been great! I feel about this type of precision work as I do about using a 4-jaw chuck - out of my league. I know I'll "get there" but I have to start physically doing some of this before I'll get comfortable. I really appreciate all the time and patience you've given me!



precisionworks said:


> You can easily make a test bar to check alignment between centers & that's one of the first things to check on any new machine. A good explanation here: http://www.cartertools.com/jose06.html



Wow! I must be doing something right. This is one of the articles I read earlier today. Well, partially read. At some point I began to not follow all the instructions. So I went on to another. I just read it again and I believe I follow it. Couple questions. If my tailstock is not aligned as it arrives to me, then the center holes I drill will not be centered. But, after I drill both and then do the surface cuts, then the holes are centered relative to the freshly cut OD, Right? I must confess, I don't know what the Catch Plate and Driving Dog are? Read it again. I have a faceplate coming with the lathe. The driving dog must be some type of clamping device to transmit turning forces from the faceplate to the material. Where can I get such an "animal" - Pun intended.

I will need to buy an MT5 dead center. Is a Bison carbide tip full dead center for $45 descent? I know you use a copper hammer to seat your MT's but do you use some type of sleeve to contact the MT at other than the sharp point?

This test bar will allow me to do horizontal and vertical alignment of the spindle and tailstock centers and some other checks, IIRC. Now on to what Will Q is doing.

With the tru-sets, if I understand correctly, you can adjust all 6 jaws in unison to achieve perfect or near perfect concentricity/.000x" TIR and that's what you're doing in the pics, right? If I'm using a 3-jaw, I can't doing anything about TIR, can I? (Short of major repair work, bearing preload check?) I also understand aligning the tool post in your pics.



> South Bend Publication H-3 _The Installation & Leveling of the Lathe_ is a must read even though it was published in the 1940's. http://www.wswells.com/data/howto/H-3.pdf



Just read this. If the pics were not in the manual, I'd have thought it was published this year. I found the test bar on the last page to be the most interesting. I just "know"/have this feeling that I'm going to have to remove my dense carpet from underneath at least the footmaster casters to do a proper leveling. I did pick up a Starrett 199.

Wow, before reading your posts and watching the videos, I'd have thought that one never runs a lathe under power when using a dial indicator. Somehow, I'd have thought that it might break the tool or the cause significant wear on the contact surface.[/QUOTE]


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## darkzero (Sep 25, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> I don't know what the Catch Plate and Driving Dog are?


 
Remember that plate I showed you with the two slots in it (others have just one slot)? That's a Catch Plate, aka drive plate or dog plate.

A Driving Dog is aka a lathe dog. Some drive plates have a post sticking out instead of a slot & are used with straight lathe dogs instead of the bent ones.

Here I am turning between centers, you can't see the drive plate but the green thing is the lathe dog.






You could probably use the face plate with a lathe dog if it fits the slot. It's best to insert the lathe dog back into the same slot on the drive plate (if there's more than one) if you take the work piece out & need to put it back in, especially when threading. Be sure to set the lathe dog against the side of the slot according to the rotation of the spindle before tightening the tailstock & turning on the spindle.

You can also use the 3-jaw chuck instead of a drive plate. If you machine a piece of stock in the chuck to 60deg for use as a center, as long you don't remove it from the chuck it will be dead centered no matter how much runout your chuck has. You can then rest the lathe dog against one of the jaws.




BVH said:


> I will need to buy an MT5 dead center.


 
You don't have to unless you want something with higher quality. The lathe comes with a MT5-MT3 spindle adapter & a dead center. Also comes with a live center to start you off.




BVH said:


> I know you use a copper hammer to seat your MT's but do you use some type of sleeve to contact the MT at other than the sharp point?


 
You won't need to seat a dead/live center with a hammer. Only a drill chuck or MT drills since there is no slot for the tang in the TS on the 1236 that the larger lathes have like Barry's.




BVH said:


> If I'm using a 3-jaw, I can't doing anything about TIR, can I?


 
The stock 3-jaw will probably give you around .002" TIR. If you loosen the adapter from the chuck, you might be able to adjust it a bit. I was able to get close to .001" with the stock chuck just by doing that. 

What I did was mark the adapter so that it always goes onto the spindle using the same holes. Removed the 3-jaw chuck from the adapter, took a light pass on the two surfaces of the adpater & then took a tiny bit off the diamater of the register so it would be a hair undersize. This allows me to get under .001", poor man's Set-Tru. I've got it down to about 0.0005" which is more than good for that chuck. But there are downsides to this, the chuck can easily get bumped out of round, it's never happened to me yet, but then again I only use this chuck for certain things.


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## precisionworks (Sep 25, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> I feel about this type of precision work as I do about using a 4-jaw chuck - out of my league.


Most job shops have one lathe with a 3-jaw for fast and dirty work & the other lathe with a 4-jaw for dead accurate work. 

Some 3-jaw chucks run close to true and have around .002" TIR. With a 4-jaw you can dial in to .0002" TIR if you need to, which is 10X more accurate than a "good" 3-jaw. Of course you can buy one of the Adjust-True or Set-Tru models and dial it in as close as a 4-jaw, but there are a few drawbacks to that approach.

Cost is pretty high. A 6" 6-jaw Bison runs $1250 & a 6" 3-jaw is $985. You can sometimes find better prices at the ToolMex online outlet: http://stores.ebay.com/Toolmex-Online-Outlet-Store

The other drawback to the settable 3 or 6 jaw chuck is that it's designed for toolroom use. Use it for operations that generate a smooth cut without chatter & it works fine. Try to part off a piece of 4140HT that chatters a bit & it's time to reset the chuck with the Thomson bar. 

Grip is also somewhat limited as the jaws are ground to a very smooth finish to achieve the low TIR number ... heavy drilling will often push the part back through the jaws. Even a heavy roughing cut in 6061-T6 will push the stock back enough that it comes off the center in the tailstock ... pretty exciting when that happens as it did to me 

Lastly, suppose that you machine a Delrin fixture to hold a tubular part (think flashlight). Slide the tube into the fixture & grip the fixture in a well adjusted 3 or 6 jaw. If both the fixture & the tube are perfectly machined there is no problem. If either or both are slightly off it will be nearly impossible to indicate the part closely.

Surprisingly 4-jaws come with none of these issues. They cost very little. When tightened with a cheater bar they grip like death. They easily accommodate out of round stock & odd shaped parts. And they are easy to adjust with just a little practice. 

There isn't one perfect workholding solution which is why most shops have a scroll chuck, 5C collet chuck, 4-jaw & a faceplate. Taking the time to learn the ins & outs of 4-jaw use is time well spent.


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## BVH (Sep 25, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



precisionworks said:


> Taking the time to learn the ins & outs of 4-jaw use is time well spent.



I agree 100% and that's what I will do. The Bison 6 jaws sound like fantastic chucks but there's a lot of other items I want to get before plunking down over a grand on a 3rd chuck. Will and Will, I may have asked this before, maybe not. Did your machines come with the 40-position tool post back then or the currently supplied unknown brand "wedge style QCTP"? I want to have an excellent quality QCTP and am wondering about the quality of the one it comes with. There's easily another $1,000 cost with a fair amount of tool holders if the one it comes with is a junker. Are Dorians and Aloris close in quality and a Phase II somewhat lesser?

Will, I didn't see any type of MT5 accessory listed on Matt's page so that it comes with a 5 to 3 adapter is welcome news! I searched drive dogs and now see what they're all about.


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## wquiles (Sep 25, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> The Bison 6 jaws sound like fantastic chucks but there's a lot of other items I want to get before plunking down over a grand on a 3rd chuck.


Mirage_Man (Brian) and I just got lucky that we bought our Bison 6-jaw set-tru chucks for about $600 on special right before they almost doubled in price. Just pure luck.




BVH said:


> Will and Will, I may have asked this before, maybe not. Did your machines come with the 40-position tool post back then or the currently supplied unknown brand "wedge style QCTP"? I want to have an excellent quality QCTP and am wondering about the quality of the one it comes with. There's easily another $1,000 cost with a fair amount of tool holders if the one it comes with is a junker. Are Dorians and Aloris close in quality and a Phase II somewhat lesser?


The PM1236 comes with a no-name, piston-type QCTP, and no-name tool holders in BXA size. If you contact Matt, he will exchange for free this one to a wedge-type. I have read the discussions about piston vs. wedge, and after briefly using both systems, the wedge wins hands down - not even close.

And yes, Dorian and Aloris are probably the best ones, with the now-gone DTM (like the one I restored) as an equal, so any of those would be great. Phase II is really good for the price, and certainly better finish/quality than the no-brand ones, and it is certainly good enough for the work we do - Mac still uses a Phase II Wedge tool post in his full CNC lathe


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## precisionworks (Sep 25, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Something you may want to do is reman the chuck. Remove all the bolts holding the parts together and lay everything out on a clean bench. Wash each part individually using any solvent that you prefer - or buy a few cans of BrakeKleen at the auto parts store & _take each individual part outside for spraying & scrubbing._ For some strange reason the "lubricant" inside every Chinese chuck that I've done is a mixture of something gritty plus thin oil & all of that has to come out. Compressed air helps blow off the last small particles after the wash & scrub.

Feel each individual part for burrs, sharp edges or roughness & stone these smooth with a Hard Arkansas stone. A Dremel tool is handy for breaking sharp edges. Once all the parts are smooth to your satisfaction it's time to grease & assemble. The difference in operation is night & day. It will not be any more accurate but it will be much more pleasant to use. 

This procedure was used on the 8" Phase II chuck on the Super Spacer & it took about two hours.



> The stock 3-jaw will probably give you around .002" TIR. If you loosen the adapter from the chuck, you might be able to adjust it a bit. I was able to get close to .001" with the stock chuck just by doing that.


+1

Also try clocking the chuck to each of the six possible positions, noting the TIR at each position. One will be less than all the others so make some type of witness mark that allows remounting the chuck to that same position.


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## BVH (Sep 26, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

OK, so I thought I'd throw this out here for your thoughts and recommendations. The idea of the central tube caster attachment points (front and back) is to end up with 4 leveling points on the machine instead of 8 if I were to mount casters to the front and back of each of the 4 side tubes. It also reduces the tripping hazard. 

If I use my Footmaster 4" tall caster machine mounts, then my overall height increase will be about 6 inches. That's probably a nice work piece height but is 6" too much rise from a stability standpoint given I've increased the front-to-back stance by about 8 to 10" overall as compared to the original mounting holes in the stands.

The two inner tabs are just something I thought about doing. After the machine is fully leveled, my thought was to install a heavy gauge piece of square tubing bolted to each tab so as to make the lathe, pedestals and riser more of a "box" instead of the pedestals being able to move independently at their bottoms.


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## BVH (Sep 28, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Looks Okay?


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## precisionworks (Sep 28, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

I'm not totally clear on how it's all laid out ... perhaps another drawing showing final position of the components.


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## BVH (Sep 28, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Opps, OK will do.


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## BVH (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Good exercise! Discovered a major problem right off the bat.

Will, or Will, when you have a chance, could you give me the measurement of

1. The diameter of any one of the stand mounting bolt holes.
2. The distance from the holes' center point to the outside edge of the metal.
3. The distance between any two of the mounting bolt holes, front to back.


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## StrikerDown (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

You might wait for your machine to arrive before you drill your mounting holes. It would be my luck for my machine to have an update or other change to the holes in the base.


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## BVH (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

You're probably right. I wasn't going to drill anything until the machine arrived but I needed those above dimensions so that I could make the width of each structure such that the stand bolt holes line up dead center in the square tubing. Not much room for error with a 1.5" I.D. tubing and a 1/2" bolt and washers. But who knows, that dimension could be slightly different enough with this shipment of stands to screw me up. I need to throttle myself back a little, me thinks. What's a day or two in the scheme of things.

I'll post the more detailed drawing anyway knowing there could be subtle dimension changes which would only affect overall width of each riser.


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## BVH (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

As mentioned above, each riser width may change a bit in either direction so that the lathe stand factory bolting holes line up dead center in the tubing. I'd guess the risers may end up overhanging the factory stands by a 1/4" or so side to side. Post 69 shows the bottom of the factory stand. Note: the overall width in this drawing is not to scale, the distance between the stands is about 3' if my calcs are close.


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## precisionworks (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Your new print is much better 

That should work well. On the headstock end you may want to move the square tube left so it's under the heaviest part of the headstock. Other than that it looks great & should make leveling easier.


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## wquiles (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> Good exercise! Discovered a major problem right off the bat.
> 
> Will, or Will, when you have a chance, could you give me the measurement of
> 
> ...


 
I am not trying to be a pain in the but, but I am an engineer and I need more information (my wife hates that as she always things she gave me enough information, I then I am supposed to know what the heck she is talking about, so therefore guessing the rest of the missing information is expected of me - unfortunately my brain is not wired that way :devil: ):
1. Stand mounting holes to what? Top (to the lathe side), or bottom, to the mounting feet?
2. Same as above.
3. Same as above.

I am working from home today, so it would be trivial to walk to the garage (I mean, the "shop") and get you any measurements I can take for you 

Will

PS. I do absolutely adore my wife - definitely a keeper!


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## BVH (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Barry, by moving the headstock tube left, do you mean to move the center tube left, closer to the left-most tube so that it would not be centered but more directly under the headstock?

My lathe outline is sort of diagramatic and I'll go check some pics to see where the headstock actually is in relation to the stand.
EDIT: with the cover off, it looks like the headstock mass is actually slightly right of the center of the stand. 




wquiles said:


> I am not trying to be a pain in the but, but I am an engineer and I need more information (my wife hates that as she always things she gave me enough information, I then I am supposed to know what the heck she is talking about, so therefore guessing the rest of the missing information is expected of me - unfortunately my brain is not wired that way :devil: ):
> 1. Stand mounting holes to what? Top (to the lathe side), or bottom, to the mounting feet?
> 2. Same as above.
> 3. Same as above.
> ...



Will, For 20 years, I worked very closely with all disciplines of engineering firms and closely with their engineers in putting together building repair, civil, electrical, mechanical and other large-scale projects. I thoroughly enjoyed my interactions with the engineers because I crave the "why" in addition to the "how to do it". I love to know the theory. Every time they asked more questions, it was just another opportunity to learn more about the "why".

What other info would you like to see?


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## StrikerDown (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



wquiles said:


> I am not trying to be a pain in the but, but I am an engineer and I need more information (my wife hates that as she always things she gave me enough information, I then I am supposed to know what the heck she is talking about, so therefore guessing the rest of the missing information is expected of me - unfortunately my brain is not wired that way :devil: ):
> 1. Stand mounting holes to what? Top (to the lathe side), or bottom, to the mounting feet?
> 2. Same as above.
> 3. Same as above.
> ...



Will, it has nothing to do with you being an engineer... Men are from Mars, etc! 33 years and counting and I still have not figured out her wiring diagram!


BVH,

If you are interested here is my feeble attempt at a similar project. It has worked out very well by the way.

Starts on page 2 toward the bottom:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?230731-New-Lathe-PM1440/page2


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## BVH (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Striker, that looks great! I like how your ultimate locations of the Mason feet give the lathe a wider stance than in my design. Maybe even less of a tripping hazard. You used a much larger connection tube too. I wish I had learned to weld a long time ago so I could do my own work. I'm thinking about taking some welding classes at a local college.


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## StrikerDown (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

I wish I knew how to weld also! :shakehead
MIG is caveman simple... So simple even I can do it! 

The tubing is all 2x4 box. It is stiff enough that I had to shim the lathe up from the tubing to get it to level... One fender washer on each front corner tail stock end.


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## precisionworks (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> MIG is caveman simple... So simple even I can do it!


I often get to repair something that was "welded at" but not welded together. I've seen some of the most beautiful surface welds you can imagine ... but one hit with a 2# hammer caused failure of the joint. The repair then costs twice as much as all the old weld material has to be ground off or ground out before re welding can begin.

Welds that look good usually are ... welds that look bad usually are :devil:


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## BVH (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

If I use the 2x4 box, do I need 1/4" wall or will 1/8" or 3/16" work?


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## wquiles (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> What other info would you like to see?


You asked me for measurements, but I need to know if you need the ones on top of the stands, or on the bottom. That is what I need clarification before I go and measure something for you.

I "think" you need the bottom, but I wanted to make sure.

Will


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## BVH (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

ok, now I'm with you. The bottom holes. Sorry!


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## wquiles (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



BVH said:


> Good exercise! Discovered a major problem right off the bat.
> 
> Will, or Will, when you have a chance, could you give me the measurement of
> 
> ...


 


BVH said:


> ok, now I'm with you. The bottom holes. Sorry!


 
1. I have washers top and bottom, so I can't see how big it is, but it comfortable fits a 1/2" dia bolt, which is what my mounts use.
2. About 0.9" to 1.0" from the edge (left or right), and about 3.0" to front or back.
3. Between 8.4" and 8.5"

Will


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## BVH (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Perfect! Thank you, Will!


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## StrikerDown (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



precisionworks said:


> I often get to repair something that was "welded at" but not welded together. I've seen some of the most beautiful surface welds you can imagine ... but one hit with a 2# hammer caused failure of the joint. The repair then costs twice as much as all the old weld material has to be ground off or ground out before re welding can begin.
> 
> Welds that look good usually are ... welds that look bad usually are :devil:



Barry, My welds are not always as pretty as your example but I have not seen one fail yet. My biggest problem was starting the weld in less than ideal positions. Since getting a good auto darkening helmet it is much easier to be on target! I even did some welding on a trailer that was hit by a car...metal was torn apart mostly bent to hell but the welds all held! I also tend to over weld when a few tack welds are probably sufficient.


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## wquiles (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Getting a Mig welder is still in my "toys to buy" list


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## StrikerDown (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



wquiles said:


> Getting a Mig welder is still in my "toys to buy" list


 
A TIG is on mine. Someday I'll have one like Barry's


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## gadget_lover (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

A welder is a nice addition to the build process. It allows you to 'glue' small metal pieces together instead of having to remove tons of metal from a large block of metal.

Measure twice, cut once, weld back together, repeat.

Adding a welder to your design process can lead to different decisions. For example a buddy needs to make a fender for a wheel chair. Last year I would have recommended aluminum and screw/bolt/rivet it together. I suggested instead sheet metal that can be more readily bent and then tack-welded. Mine is just a 100 amp mig welder but it's worked out well so far.

Daniel


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## precisionworks (Sep 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

A machine shop that doesn't offer welding services leaves a lot of money on the table. A welding shop that cannot do machine work leaves even more behind. I had a preliminary meeting with a new customer today who initially called about on site welding, some in confined spaces (as defined by OSHA) and some as high as 150' above ground level. This led to machine work on shafts & bearings, then electrical (480 volt 3ph) and finally PLC controls. 

If this is something you do either part time or full time, offering a number of services is a great way to lock out the competition.


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## darkzero (Sep 30, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

If I remember correctly 5/8" is the largest I could use for the mounting holes. I think I may have the same size Mason mounts that Will has, they also have 1/2" studs. The solid inner mounts I made are with 5/8" studs.

The stands are not made with precision & based on where these are made, I doubt each run of them come out precisely the same. After all with Will's lathe & mine I have noticed variances. I figure you are anxious to get it done but I think it would be best to hold off on finalizing any of the critical parts of your base project until you actually have yours in front of you to verify the measurements. Better safe than sorry having to redo any hard work you have already completed.


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## BVH (Sep 30, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



darkzero said:


> The stands are not made with precision & based on where these are made, I doubt each run of them come out precisely the same. After all with Will's lathe & mine I have noticed variances. I figure you are anxious to get it done but I think it would be best to hold off on finalizing any of the critical parts of your base project until you actually have yours in front of you to verify the measurements. Better safe than sorry having to redo any hard work you have already completed.



Agreed. And I really like Ray's style of riser much better. Pretty sure I'm going to copy it. Got the drawing made already. Just need to know the wall thickness of the 2"x4" tubing.


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## precisionworks (Sep 30, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> If I use the 2x4 box, do I need 1/4" wall or will 1/8" or 3/16" work?



IMO 4 x 2 x 11 ga steel (actual thickness .1196" but usually called 1/8") is awfully thin. At 4.21#/foot it's easy to handle and a 24' stick weighs only 101#. For what you want to do it's on the thin side.

4 x 2 x .187" is 6.87#/ft and probably strong enough for your purpose. 4 x 2 x .250" is 8.81#/ft and would be my choice but I overbuild everything structural 

Figure $1.00/# retail pricing for whichever size you choose. Most suppliers will charge about $5.00 per cut & you'll need at least one cut to get the 24' stick down to two 12' sticks that will go on a small trailer. Most suppliers cut plus/minus more than you'd want, so have your supplier make as few cuts as possible so that the material can be hauled to your shop for precise cutting. 

If you don't buy full 24' sticks expect to pay more, at least $1.50/#.


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## BVH (Sep 30, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

For fun, I was looking on-line for the tubing. $1.62/lb is right on for buying a couple of 4's and 1, 6' - 1/4" wall piece. Some stores had A36 and some had A500. In reading, A500 has more strength but its' "weldability" is not as good as A36. Is this just a "relative" technical issue between the two metals or can it be a real problem welding the A500? I'll probably make a trip to L.A. to a huge metal store when I'm down there next time.


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## StrikerDown (Sep 30, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

I measured the wall of my Lathe transport/riser bases! Looks like is measures .120" Might be a little on the light side but It seems to work fine and it survived being bounced up the loading ramp into the trailer and down again as well as the trailer ride home and bouncing across the lip of the driveway to garage floor. No signs of any bending or malformation at the castor mounting points or at the leveling bolts. If I were doing this again I would consider going heavier but it isn't necessary in this case. My lathe is not the heavy version of the 1440 size lathe. For size and weight see the PM 1440 in their website. 1560 Lbs.
http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1440.html


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## precisionworks (Sep 30, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*



> A500 has more strength but its' "weldability" is not as good as A36.


A500 is about 50ksi tensile while A36 is 36ksi tensile. Both have about 25 carbon points, but the difference is that A500 contains more manganese & copper (although still a tiny amount). Unless your welds have to pass a Charpy V-Notch test the welder will not be able to tell A36 from A500 when joining either metal. 

Mostly A36 is angle, channel, square/round/flat bar, while A500 is structural pipe or tube. A36 can also be seen in horizontal building use while A500 is used for vertical supports.


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## BVH (Sep 30, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Thanks Ray & Barry. The cost difference btw 3/16 and 1/4 is small in the scheme of things, I think it was about $50.00. Both are readily available locally so I'll go for the 1/4". Good info on the steel differences.


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## BVH (Oct 26, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Lathe is on its' way to me.  I won't get it till somewhere around the 10th or 11th as I'm up north for a while beginning mid next week.  It's been easy to contain my excitement knowing that it had not shipped. Now, it's gonna be difficult!


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## moderator007 (Oct 28, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Hi BVH,

I know the excitement must be like a kid at christmas. Waiting for santa to bring his first bicycle. 
I have the HF 8x14 and really like the machine. But it has its limits.
I have a friend who is thinking about financing me a larger lathe to turn some high preformance automotive brake parts for imports.
I really like the features and size of the PM1236. This maybe the lathe I choose also.
I have one problem I haven't figured out yet. How do I get the lathe in my basement garage setup on the stand.
The lathe will have to go all the way in the back of the garage. The ceiling is 8' high.
My brother has a trackhoe that could easly move it around but will not fit in the garage.
I can set it a few feet in the garage.
Do you just setup on the stand and then push it by hand in the garage.
I dont know how I could safely move around a 1250 pound machine.
How do you plan on getting it setup BVH?


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## BVH (Oct 28, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

My setup is very easy. The garage opens to the street with a 30' setback via a very slight downhill garage apron. Assuming the truck is equipped with a pallet jack, he'll just roll it in the garage. From there, I bought the Harbor Freight $200 foldable, 2-ton engine crane. This will allow me to move it anywhere I want in the garage to assemble it. It folds into a nice, small package after use and will sit in a corner of the garage. From there I bought these machinery casters/feet to mount to the stand/riser I will have built so that I can move the machine by myself or with helpers if ever needed. So if the trackhoe can do the lifting of the lathe onto the stand at the front of the garage, and you buy the caster/feet (with the single mounting post instead of the 4-bolt flange model I bought) then you could roll it into final position. No need to buy the crane. I bought the 4-bolt model because I'm having the 4" riser stand built to raise the machine to a comfortable height and the material I'm using lends itself to a flange mount. Most people here have also raised their machine.

Casters/feet: ww.castersupply.com/NAV/gd_80.htm 

Crane: ww.harborfreight.com/2-ton-foldable-shop-crane-35915.html

Looks like the lathe may make it here in-time for a Tuesday delivery.  However, as with all the 1236's in this shipment, the wedge QCTP, the live center and the drill chuck were the wrong ones so there will be another month of waiting for these parts. I don't know if the old, 40 position tool post is still part of the package so I don't know if I will be able to use the lathe at all or not.  Trying to find out. Very disappointing. I've been thinking of buying an Aloris anyway, maybe this is the time to do it.


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## moderator007 (Oct 28, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

Thanks for the link for the casters BVH. Good idea.
I use to have a shop crane several years ago. I lent it out to a friend then he lent it out to friend and now nobody knows where it is.
Oh well. 
I'll probably also raise the stand 4" in the same method. Thanks again BVH.


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## precisionworks (Oct 29, 2011)

*Re: Narrowed my lathe selection down to 2. Would appreciate comments & suggestions.*

No matter which method you use, go slow & have three or four friends over to assist with set up. Lathes have almost all their mass at the very top & they'll tip in a heartbeat. Take your time, think through the moves & it will go well. Get in a rush and all bets are off


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