# Titanium Prices



## NewBie (Apr 29, 2006)

If you take a look, 72" of 1" diameter Titanium bar stock isn't that expensive. I chose McMasterCarr, though they are far from the cheapest, they were the easiest to look up

668.57/72" = 9.29 per inch

Typical flashlight is about 4" long, so you are looking at ~37.00 in raw materials.

The nice thing about titanium is once you hog out the center for your tubes and such, there is alot of titanium that you can collect (well over half) for selling to metal salvage folks, and the turnings obviously would be is pretty high grade...

It is a little tougher to machine, requiring that you take some care in your setup, and more frequent sharpening of your tools, and hog/feed a bit slower...


http://www.mcmaster.com/
Search for part number 89055K41


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## PhotonFanatic (Apr 29, 2006)

NewBie said:


> The nice thing about titanium is once you hog out the center for your tubes and such, there is alot of titanium that you can collect (well over half) for selling to metal salvage folks, and the turnings obviously would be is pretty high grade...
> 
> It is a little tougher to machine, requiring that you take some care in your setup, and more frequent sharpening of your tools, and hog/feed a bit slower...


 
So, will you be selling these Titanium bodies soon? Or flashlights?


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## Rothrandir (Apr 29, 2006)

one should keep in mind however, that though the flashlight may be 4inches long, it is comprised of at least 3 pieces, normally 4 (bezel, head, body, tailcap(though in some designs a bezel can be avoided, it's not normal).

consider that parts need to thread into each other. also consider that the stock must either be parted off on the lathe or sawed off on a bandsaw. so add the thickness of the parting tool or bandsaw blade. (though i'm going to saw that most flashlights of this size are going to be made from barstock, with either a bar feeder or a bar puller, no bandsaw involved)

my mclux for instance, (we'll use this because it's easy to measure all the parts sperately) measures about 3.550" in the off position (will vary a bit depending on how far the tailcap is screwed in). if i take all the parts and measure them seperately, i get:
bezel: .227"
head: 1.263"
body: 2.027"
tailcap: .718"
total lenght of added parts: 4.235" 
that's an extra .685" in the finished length alone. add .05" - .100" per part length to face off the ends to clean up (some parts can be done in one operation, other parts will require two). and you can easily get an extra inch total per flashlight.

just an example, though different lights will have very different results.


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## NewBie (Apr 29, 2006)

Okay, so figure 46.45 for 5" inches of material to make a 4" light, remembering many 123 cell lights are only 3" long...which puts you back at 37 dollars...


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## gregw (Apr 29, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Okay, so figure 46.45 for 5" inches of material to make a 4" light, remembering many 123 cell lights are only 3" long...which puts you back at 37 dollars...



You also need to take into account the extra length of titanium that is needed to be held by the lathe. For my run of Exolion, this meant that almost 6 inches per bar was wasted..


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## McGizmo (Apr 29, 2006)

Newbie,
I believe Ti is the 7th most prevalant element on the planet. Ti chips can be recycled and I believe shops who work with Ti to any extent will clean their machines prior to cutting Ti and hang on to the scrap. As to what it will bring you to a recycler, I have no idea but suspect it is not a lot. Processing Ti is an expensive proposition as I understand it because it must be kept from contamination by isolating it from air and some gasses when it is in its molten state. Although abundant in ore, processed Ti is not cheap and reprocessing chips I would guess will cut down on its scrap value but I have not tried to sell any Ti chips so I am guessing on this.

You guesstimate $37 in material for a flashlight and in 1inch OD;, you may be right. This is as opposed to probably under $1 for aluminium. Are you implying then that a Ti light should be $36 more than an aluminum light or should it be 37X the cost of an aluminium light?



> ...It is a little tougher to machine..


 Is this comment from hands on experience? If yes, please come down and teach me the tricks!!!! You won't be able to prove this on my humble equipment!! :green: I grant that a professional shop with substantial equipment, in house know how and the proper cutting tools can take the mystery out of machining Ti and likely the only difference between cutting Al and Ti will be seen in extended machine time per part and a higher cost in tool wear. As I stated in some other thread regarding Ti and its machining, I recently contracted some tail caps machined from both materials (same part) and the Ti part is going to cost about 10X what the Al is costing. Since the machined parts do not constitute a complete flashlight, the selling price of a Ti light VS an aluminum won't be 10X, more like 2X to 3X; in my case anyway. Another problem in dealing with the shops that can work the metal is that of set up cost. The set up cost is the same for one part as it is for 10k parts (tool replacement and machine maintenance not included). If someone were to go for a run of a few thousand Ti lights, there would be some economies of scale that can not be met in a run of 50 or 100 sets. BTW, the shops I have worked with who machine Ti don't sharpen their tools; they replace the carbide and ceramic inserts as needed. They also use the proper composition and rake angle and other stuff that I don't understand. If a tap is used, it has to be a special tap if there is any hope of reasonable tool life and parts not scrapped with broken taps in them.

I grant you that my experience is very limited and on top of that, 


I could be all wrong about my perceptions of working with Ti and I would love to receive enlightenment and shown some tricks of the trade! The few I have spoken with who can walk the walk and talk the talk don't make it out to be any mystery but they don't brush it off as trivial either. They are happy to discuss the ways and means but it is in a language I have yet to learn. They also speak of tools and tooling that I am not familiar with and certainly don't have at my disposal. Heck, there are shops engaged in hard turning of parts without batting an eye. Material costs may be insignificant in the big picture! How about I send you 12' of Ti for free and I guess I can get some lights for free in exchange! :nana:


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## gadget_lover (Apr 30, 2006)

Well, you don't really get a 3 inch light out of 4 inches unless you are really, really careful with your planning and have the right setup. My light is 3 inches and took me 6 inches of raw material. The extra material was needed for the mating parts which overlap as well as extra to be able to hold some of the parts while working on them. A .950 inch long tail cap, for instance was made from a 2 inch piece of stock. Then there were spots where I needed room to move the tool, so I lost another 1/2 inch.

If I had a feed through bar feeder it would be different, but I can't pass 1 inch stock through my headstock, so I have to chop the pieces down.

But even so, $60 for the body is not too bad. It only costs a buck or 3 for my aluminum bodies.

Daniel


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## NewBie (Apr 30, 2006)

McGizmo said:


> Newbie,
> I believe Ti is the 7th most prevalant element on the planet. Ti chips can be recycled and I believe shops who work with Ti to any extent will clean their machines prior to cutting Ti and hang on to the scrap. As to what it will bring you to a recycler, I have no idea but suspect it is not a lot.




I believe it is around 9.37 a pound, but that will vary, depending on market, location, and scrap dealer.




McGizmo said:


> You guesstimate $37 in material for a flashlight and in 1inch OD;, you may be right. This is as opposed to probably under $1 for aluminium. Are you implying then that a Ti light should be $36 more than an aluminum light or should it be 37X the cost of an aluminium light?




The actual amount of material needed will depend alot on the flashlight design, and how much thread overlap you have and such, but you know that already.




McGizmo said:


> Is this comment from hands on experience? If yes, please come down and teach me the tricks!!!!




It has been 25 years since I machined Ti, and it took a bit of learning in the process.




McGizmo said:


> ....machining Ti and likely the only difference between cutting Al and Ti will be seen in extended machine time per part and a higher cost in tool wear.




Thats exactly what I said.

"It is a little tougher to machine, requiring that you take some care in your setup, and more frequent sharpening of your tools, and hog/feed a bit slower..."




McGizmo said:


> As I stated in some other thread regarding Ti and its machining, I recently contracted some tail caps machined from both materials (same part) and the Ti part is going to cost about 10X what the Al is costing.




Very true, machined aluminum parts are rather low cost.




McGizmo said:


> Another problem in dealing with the shops that can work the metal is that of set up cost. The set up cost is the same for one part as it is for 10k parts (tool replacement and machine maintenance not included).




Very true. One of the things where economy of scale comes into play, and also the skill of the shop, operator, and the machines they have at their disposal. Just like you said.




McGizmo said:


> BTW, the shops I have worked with who machine Ti don't sharpen their tools; they replace the carbide and ceramic inserts as needed. They also use the proper composition and rake angle and other stuff that I don't understand.




I didn't have access to those replaceable inserts when I machined. Those would be great. Often I had to grind my own face, rake, reliefs, chip breaker, and such. Though with carbide tools, they were such a bummer to attempt to grind, usually I'd just order what I needed, or as close as I could get.




McGizmo said:


> I could be all wrong about my perceptions of working with Ti and I would love to receive enlightenment and shown some tricks of the trade!




IMHO, it is more of an art, once you get into it very deep, any joe can slap something on a lathe and with some patience and trial and error, machine steel or aluminum. It is quite a different experience to make something to print. I had the advantage of technical training along with hands on. What they did with us, was to give us about 15 minutes of instruction, then we worked in the shop, and the instructors were available for questions.



Now for those who said that you waste 6" for every piece, thats an interesting concept. One might look into shops that have lathes that are designed to accept rod feedstock, and have the typical hole passing through the head. That way you only loose a portion of the whole bar. Another method is to use a long bar, with supports on the material stock, such as the steady rest, or a follower rest (or both), and get it nice and centered with a dial indicator.


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## McGizmo (Apr 30, 2006)

> ..any joe can slap something on a lathe and with some patience and trial and error...



This for the most part describes my formal education when it comes to machining. I have known and spent some time through the years talking to some guys who were masters at their trade. Technology and automation has removed a serious connection between the hands on craftsman and apprenticeship of starting with a block of steel, a vice and a file. I have a DRO now on my lathe and can zero the tool at will and don't have to think in 1/2 diameter cuts or do any math any more to speak of. There are guys running CNC equipment who have never felt the feedback in their hands of the tool cutting the metal. Not sure I have a point here! 

The price of Ti barstock is considerably higher than that of Al or brass. The price of a finished part in Ti compared to that in Al or brass has some other significant factors and considerations. With the right equipment and knowledge, there is no mystery or any real problems. Without these, some things can be faked and others not. Having started a couple fires in the chip pan with Ti and having melted cobalt bits, I can speak with a certain authority on how not to do it and how not to fake it. Working with Ti gives one a good chance to learn things the hard way. 

With the average small shop machines, do you know how long it takes you to generate a pound of Ti scrap?  I mean in chips and not mistakes!  

I recall a Ti flashlight program that was going to be done by one of our members in Germany on his home lathe. When I read his plans I figured this guy was a true saint with plenty time on his hands! I don't think this program ever realy got off the ground. :shrug: I can certainly guess as to a possible why.

I would like to suggest that a project could start with free material and still become too expensive and not cost effective unless the costs were passed on. I paid a lot of money for a small group of Ti lights I wanted protos of and the cost of the material wasn't even factored in.

I have been fond of Ti for quite a few years and I tried to champion the use if it in sailboat hardware where its weight and corrosion resistance truly were an advantage and even safety consideration in some cases. Best cases were about 4:1 over Al or stainless steel and often the Ti was up to 10X the price of the alternative. I sold aerospace fasteners for a while almost 30 years ago and there were some government projects where the engineers were allowed to spend $500 for a 1 lb weight savings. $500 was a lot of money back then but even then, we had Ti fluid fittings that couldn't be justified in some of these weight sensitive cases. The fittings were just too expensive relative to their alternatives. In '78 this company I worked for was paying $20/lb for the bar stock and had to place orders up to a year in advance. I think most of the raw material was coming from behind the Iron Curtain. Newer and more effective machines have reduced the cost in processing Ti but these machines have to be paid for and you don't pick them up at Harbor Freight.

Much of the Ti I have bought has been from E-Bay and surplus supply and it consists of drops from CNC shops who do use bar feeding. Having to pre cut each piece and have excess to be parted off and lost is real expensive and not on an ideal machine choice, IMHO. I have had some quotes vary by as much as 3X and this was due to the machines the shops had and the time it would take them to make the parts on their machines. The right shop can save you a big chunk of change by having the right equipment for the job. If you are doing your design with CAD, you can come up with two solutions in the same amount of design time and they may appear the same to you in terms of material use and complexity but they may be quite different in quoted price!!


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## gadget_lover (Apr 30, 2006)

> Now for those who said that you waste 6" for every piece, thats an interesting concept.



I didn't mean to say 6 inches were wasted.... I still got a light out of it. 

What I should have said is that there was almost two inches of waste from a 6 inch bar to make a 3 inch light. But that's on a home machine and I'm a rank amateur.

Daniel


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## gregw (Apr 30, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Now for those who said that you waste 6" for every piece, thats an interesting concept.



Hmmm... My experience is that in the machining of the Exolion bodies, out of a single 96" bar of titanium, about 6" went to waste.. I would be very interested to see you do any better...  BTW, when are we going to see the Ti flashlight that you are making?


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## Morelite (Apr 30, 2006)

I need at least 1" of additional material for each piece I make. So, if the item I'm making consists of 3 pieces, that is 3" of waste for every set of finished parts. In the case of Ti, that is $30 of waste per your costs. I haven't done much with Ti, but the same applies to whatever material your using if you don't have the pass through clearence on the headstock.


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## McGizmo (Apr 30, 2006)

GregW,
A 6" drop from a bar sounds pretty good but this is not the same as a 6" loss per part which is how I think Newbie took your meaning. :shrug"


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## gregw (Apr 30, 2006)

McGizmo said:


> GregW,
> A 6" drop from a bar sounds pretty good but this is not the same as a 6" loss per part which is how I think Newbie took your meaning. :shrug"



I guess I wasn't clear enough in my first post... :shrug: However, I really don't think anyone can afford to lose 6" per part for Ti... It's just too expensive, but then, what do I know...


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## Silviron (Apr 30, 2006)

I guess I did pretty good scoring a 5 ft rod of new 7/8 inch Ti on eBay last year for $28.00 total, incl. shipping. 

Now all I gotta do is make something out of it.


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## bombelman (Apr 30, 2006)

Silviron said:


> I guess I did pretty good scoring a 5 ft rod of new 7/8 inch Ti on eBay last year for $28.00 total, incl. shipping.
> 
> Now all I gotta do is make something out of it.



Nice catch !!!

(pm me the source...  :naughty:


Cheers !

EDIT: check here: http://cgi.ebay.com/3-4-ROUND-TITAN...613325239QQcategoryZ41963QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## Silviron (May 1, 2006)

It was either:
THESE GUYS 

Or

These Guys


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## McGizmo (May 1, 2006)

Silviron,
Great Score!!! I used to feel great if I could get the Ti for $20/ft in 3/4" to 1" range and did a few times on Ebay. McMaster Carr has been known to be behind in bumping their prices up to new levels and one shop who does stuff for me actually tried to buy from them recently because they had outdated prices that were below market. Usually they are above market if they are on top of it.


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## NewBie (May 1, 2006)

gregw said:


> Hmmm... My experience is that in the machining of the Exolion bodies, out of a single 96" bar of titanium, about 6" went to waste.. I would be very interested to see you do any better...  BTW, when are we going to see the Ti flashlight that you are making?




A total loss of 6" of material from a 96" bar is pretty good. Thats what, like 1/4" consumed per light?


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## BigHonu (May 2, 2006)

Anyone tried Halpern Titanium? Not affiliated with them in any way. I just remember the name from a couple of knife forums. I think they specialize in flat and round bar stock.


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