# So cheap...its almost disposable...



## Fusion_m8 (Apr 15, 2011)

In my quest to find an affordable tubular form HID, I found "New 24W HID Xenon TACTICAL Torch Flashlight 2000 Lumens" on ebay for less than $100 shipped to most international destinations. I wanted to post the link for convenience but I vaguely remember the rules saying that we couldn't post sales threads here. So just copy and paste the "New 24W HID Xenon TACTICAL Torch Flashlight 2000 Lumens" or Item number:220672145373 in the ebay search function and voila!

The seller sold 12 of these kits since January 2011 and so far there's no complaints about the item in the negative feedback section. Are any of those 12 people who purchased it members of CPF? If you are, please share with us your thoughts and experiences with it!

Pros:
Very affordable, modern tubular design, nice looking Pelican style case, small and portable size for hiking & walking the dog etc..., SMO reflector, 6month warranty.

(BIG)Cons:
Proprietary battery pack, 6000K tint, unknown manufacturer, unknown product reliability record, untested and unrated by CPF.

Your thoughts? Before I go ahead and buy something akin to a can of worms?


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## Norm (Apr 15, 2011)

Up late Gav Today 01:38 AM 
Norm


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## mvyrmnd (Apr 15, 2011)

Probably sitting there trying to convince himself to be CFP's guinea pig and just buy the damn thing!

It's not bad looking, and the listing says the battery pack is made up of 18650's.


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## jabe1 (Apr 15, 2011)

This looks to be exactly the same as one sold by cnqualitygoods, one of the dealers in the marketplace.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 19, 2011)

*New attractive China HID options*

Snooping around, found some new lights that I haven't seen before

The ebay HIDs are huge, but there appears to have a mini version (35W not those less attractive 24W models) probably 2200mah 3x18650 battery, haven't found a seller yet, but here is evidence that it does exist: 






Here is another one that sells for $221, a bit more than the rest of ebay HIDs,
but way better looking IMHO, looks like a Microfire clone. haven't seen anyone else sell this. If anyone has one or an found a better place, let us know.

The poorly reviewed G&P scorpian has been around for a while & is very small but it's only 35W, same as Microfire III, not dual mode. If take one of this & chop it down to 3x18650 Mini HID 35/28, it'll be pretty sweet


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## JulianP (Apr 20, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

Thanks, 

I really want to buy a short 35+W HID for my night walks. The poorly reviewed G&P Scorpion has a proprietary battery and big reflector which stops it fitting in a pocket. The Fire-foxes aren't ready yet, and all other 35W HIDs look like bazookas.

If anyone knows of a practical 35W+ HID, please post. My LEDs, aspherics and all, just don't cut the mustard.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 20, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

Well, if practical use is the only thing that matters, then you are in luck.
There are some new models of 3 mode HID shorty starting to float around,
build on the previous 24W HID smaller frame, but it's now 35w/28w/20w tri mode HID. 
that several vensord are selling on aliexpress. 
Only 9" long (Fireox II is 8.3" long). Running on 22mah 3x18650 batteries, 
It is more practical than Firefox both from run time and heat management angle.
_sales link removed_

The only thing stopping me from grabbing one is the looks, I think it's one of the 
least attractive looking HIDs I've seen. But it's hell of a deal at @112 shipped. 
They haven't hit ebay yet, but I am sure soon. 

I think he ballast will soon be available as well, just like the other alibaba HID flashlights. 
If you do end up getting one, perhaps post here & let us know what's your impression?


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## JulianP (Apr 20, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

Thank you. I just placed an order for the 20W/28W/35W Xeccon HID . At $122 shipped, it's an offer I just couldn't refuse. I will post my impressions once it arrives. 

Just as an aside, the description on the website says: "Suitable for *home maintenance*, outdoor activities, hiking,* map reading, *night fishing, *night flying*, camping, sailing, caving, hunting, etc."

I don't think any CPF member would use 3200LM to read a map or fix a tap. Plus, it's so cheap I wonder how much UV this thing emits. Some of you might remember this guy.

And... as far as night flying, the mind boggles.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 20, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

Congrats!

Their description are all messed up, lots of time the pictures or even specs are not the actual light.

UV has nothing to do with cheap lights or not. All 35W Hids have similar amount of UV, 
part of them gets blocked by the bulb envelope & part of them gets blocked from glass window, but there'll be some that pass through. I wouldn't expect huge differences between lights unless one uses much thicker glass. 

Generally speaking, the cheaper the glass, the more UV it blocks


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## 2100 (Apr 21, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

20/28/35W looks to be more flexible in reality, though i suspect 20W would be quite "inefficient" comparatively/relatively speaking in HID-speak. But these HIDs are known to be more flood than throw, so if you need to do > 200m you'd need all the power you can get. 35W range I think is all that a normal Li-Co @ 2200mAH (?) can give at prob ~ 1.5C. Prob it is pulling slightly less, 30W at input end, from my experience with the 38/50 and 40/65W models. The runtimes are ok, I gave specific figures for runtime timed multiple times, the packs are not like rated 2200mAH but just over 1000mAH stuff, or worse its near DOA like what you'd get from Trustfire/Ultrafire cells.  ie, "doable" for the low-price. 

But I really don't see the need for a 24W HID, as a 1 or 2-cell 18650 XM-L with extension tube serves very similar purpose, smaller+lighter form factor, flexibility from 1 or 2 cell 18650 operation, you can choose your cells etc. The Trustfire X8 is very cheap, and the Trusfire X6 @ usd139 shipped approaches the throw performance of the 65W model (but bear in mind if you have a need for short range usage as well, these type of HID is nearly untouchable......try putting the plastic diffusor on a SR90 and check out its performance drop)

If one does not mind the looks and want a HID "flood cum throw", the 24W models are just usd60 with the battery/charger included. Shipping to the US might be just a wee bit expensive at usd40 I think....but to Taiwan (i'm there now ) and SG its only usd20 / 29 respectively via EMS. Regarding concerns about proprietary Li-ion packs instead of 18650s, Replacement 1S3P batts are just usd26 before shipping, not too bad, just that the 11.1V 7800mah 3S3P packs would be a slightly better value wrt capacity (i was quoted usd50)....which are using the new 2600mAH cells instead of the 2200mAH cells.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 21, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*



2100 said:


> 35W range I think is all that a normal Li-Co @ 2200mAH (?) can give at prob ~ 1.5C. Prob it is pulling slightly less, 30W at input end, from my experience with the 38/50 and 40/65W models.



I imported some IMR batteries from a China mfg. directly & I was bragging about AW IMR being the *best* with my CPF obtained tunnel vision .
I was spanked silly by a girl named Linda. :whoopin:

Her response to me:
_____________________________________________________________
Dear Ma,

As your friend I must tell u, there are some misunderstanding about IMR(LiMnO2). You may have eyes only for IMR, we suggest u learn more about ICR(NiCoMnO2).

If you haven't any special requirement about the material of battery,and require high current discharge, we suggest u use ICR not IMR. ICR also has a excellence safe performance. 

These are draw data of ICR18650P. 

Regards

Linda" 







The lowest current on the graph tested is 10C 
I.e. 22Amp draw for 2200MAH ICR.


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## BVH (Apr 21, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

Ma, where can we get these ICR cells?


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 21, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

Only directly from China manufacture. I can try to get some if there's a few more guys interested. 

I'd be interested in seeing CPF high amp draw testing vs. AW IMR 18650 under 10Amp or so. 
I don't need 10C, 5C is good enough, don't think anyone need more than 13 Amp from a 2.6AH cell. 

But I always give mfg claims a grain of salt, so I am not totally convinced by the graph, 25C sounds too good to be true. But if it's half close to truth, it'll be some amazing cells. With IMR high amp draw capability & safety but with Lipo's higher capacity, sounds like a dream battery.

I am also asking for 25500 & 25650, not sure if it's possible, it'll save me from boring C tubes,
I use both AW 26500 & IMR 26650 a lot, the boring of C tubes or PVC adaptors are killing me.


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## jasonck08 (Apr 21, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*



ma_sha1 said:


> These Chinese HIDs do not Run Li-co, they all use ICR. Which is nearly unknown to CPF in terms of how good it is.
> 
> I imported some IMR batteries from a China mfg. directly & I was bragging about AW IMR being the *best* with my CPF obtained tunnel vision .
> I was spanked silly by a girl named Linda. :whoopin:
> ...


 
I think there is some confusion that I'd like to clear up. 

First off, there is no 18650 cell on the planet that is 2200mAh and can sustain a 10C draw. It's just not possible with current technology.

Secondly, what does "ICR" stands for?

I = Just means Li-ion rechargeable battery
C = is the main Cathode material (Cobalt)
R = Just designates that the cell is round

ICR's are just normal Lithium Colbalt cells (same type thats used in Laptop computers and ranges from ~2000mAh to 2600mAh in a 18650 form factor).

The cells that the lady is referencing are in a way incorrectly called "ICR" cells, and are more commonly called "NCM" cells (NiCoMnO2). Although both use Cobalt as part of the Cathode material, NCM differentiates them from the lower powered ICR cells (Like those used in laptops with a 2C max discharge).

NCM cells have similar discharge performance and capacity to IMR (LiMnO2). I'm not too sure about the safety aspects between IMR and NCM, but I still believe IMR cells might be safer because they don't use Cobalt as the cathode material. I believe Sony's 18650VT cells (made for power tools) are NCM, but I'm not sure about that.

I've opened up several of these China HID battery packs, and the ones I've opened up contain normal 18650 ICR (Li-Co) laptop cells, with 2200mAh capacity.

For most of these HID's, there is no need for anything higher powered than what normal LiCo cells can provide, as the current draw of most lights is usually in the 1 to 1.5C range.

Oh and lastly, I'd really like to see one of their NCM cells sustain 25C discharge. I call BS... 25C is almost what A123 cells max out at, and A123 26650's have like 8 mili ohms of resistance! Most other cells if the cell allowed it and the CID or PTC didn't stop the discharge, would probably burst into flames. 

A couple years ago, I ordered some sample 14500 cells from a company who initially told me that they were high power cells and could do 25C discharge. After talking to them further, they told me the cells could really only do 2-3C discharge. I got a few samples to test out, and the performance was actually worse than normal LiCo cells. Also what was strange is the labeled capacity on these "high powered cells" was about 600mA. When I measured them, they were more around 750mAh, and the internal resistance was even higher than other 14500 LiCo cells I tested. Watch out for some of these Chinese Battery companies. There are a lot of crappy cells out there and a lot of bold claims!


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 21, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

Oh, boy, I am getting spanked left & right 

Thanks for the input. Regardless it should be called ICR or NCM, the chemistry is [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Li(NiCoMn)O2, it has similar safety as IMR, won't explode,
but has much higher energy density than IMR. I've been doing reading of this chemistry, came across of this side by side table vs, IMR & regular Li-ion 

Ignore the word danger, as this site sells Lifepo4 & calls every other battery dangerous inciuding IMR.
Just look at the energy density & capacity. It is much higher than the IMR, close to Li-ion but won't explode. Higher discharge cycles. 

*The bottom line is, Everything is pointing to this Chemistry is better than IMR, don't you agree?**




*[/FONT]
http://www.elationebikes.com.au/Batteries.htm


I agree 25C is crazy claim, but I am only looking for 5C.


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## jasonck08 (Apr 21, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

I think NCM has the potential to have a higher energy density, however the energy density is usually about the same when comparing IMR and NCM 18650 cells. Both seem to be mostly in the 1300-1600mAh range for 18650 cells. Look at some of high power cells offered by Sanyo, Samsung, LG, Panasonic, Sony etc.

Secondly, that table is obviously biased and favors Lifepo4. Lifepo4 does NOT have a higher energy density than IMR / LiMn cells.

Also the site you linked to seems to contradict itself regarding pricing:



Elationebikes.com said:


> In an attempt to sell the cheaper Li cells (LiCoO2, LiMn2O4 and Li(NiCoMn)O2), there are attempts to confuse by referring to packs as LiPO, Li Polymer, etc in an attempt to avoid admitting/acknowledging they are not selling the SUPERIOR LiFePo4 cells (see table below).



Then they go on to say:



Elationebikes.com said:


> LiCoO2 battery offers very high energy density. However, this chemistry is not suitable to large format Lithium-ion Battery for EV applications, because that LiCoO2 material is very expensive and unsafe.



Hmmm... First they are saying Lifepo4 is more expensive, then LiCo? 

LiCo is the most expensive of the 4 types to produce. However, if you factory in energy density into your price point, there is not THAT much difference in cost.

------------

I'd say this is probably a better source for information although I don't agree with everything in the table posted in that link.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 21, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

The table in your link leads to the same conclusion that the NiCoMnO2 chemistry is better than IMR.

Higher capacity, 10C discharge & safer than MNR.


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## JulianP (Apr 22, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*



ma_sha1 said:


> Only directly from China manufacture. I can try to get some if there's a few more guys interested.



I looked at the aliexpress website and found that one can buy ICRs in any quantity, from 2 to 20 pieces. A group buy might not be necessary.

I will wait for a few more contributions from experts, and my own research in the next few days. Otherwise, the ICR batteries look great so far. ma_sha1, thank you again.:wave::thanks:


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## Patriot (Apr 22, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*



jasonck08 said:


> For most of these HID's, there is no need for anything higher powered than what normal LiCo cells can provide, as the current draw of most lights is usually in the 1 to 1.5C range.





Lot's of great cell discussion above but for "our purposes" in the HID community, the sentence above really encompasses a grounded perspective. Obviously there's a cross over point where LiCo cells get outperformed by IMR but HID guys won't run into high current issues unless we're hot rodding something. We need capacity and that's where LiCo is holding strong. 

With regards to the "danger" factor, I still think it's minimal when it comes to high quality protected cells. I've never once had an issue with a single LiCo cell even though I have hundreds of them. The rate of failure in the CPF community as a whole seems very insignificant, so I'm always unimpressed with the marketing of "safe" cells, when we already have relatively safe cells. In the future I can envision the highest capacity cells having the safest chemistry/design as well but I this point I'll settle for a proven cell with outstanding capacity. 

With regards to li-po's I welcome something safer that will duplicate their weight and discharge rate. They truly are sensitive and I've had them violently vent while enjoying my RC aircraft hobby. I don't even keep them inside my house anymore.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 22, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*



JulianP said:


> I looked at the aliexpress website and found that one can buy ICRs in any quantity, from 2 to 20 pieces. A group buy might not be necessary.
> 
> I will wait for a few more contributions from experts, and my own research in the next few days. Otherwise, the ICR batteries look great so far. ma_sha1, thank you again.:wave::thanks:


 
Unfortunately, according to *jasonck08, those ICRs in China HID are just Li-ion (Lico) , not the same Chemistry that I am interested in, My statement about China HID battery is post #7 is not correct & I have edited to avoid confusion. Myybe Jason can edit that away from the quote to?

*


jasonck08 said:


> I've opened up several of these China HID battery packs, and the ones I've opened up contain normal 18650 ICR (Li-Co) laptop cells, with 2200mAh capacity.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 22, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

Well, let's bring this thread back on track. It's about the more attractive New HID designs.
I pulled the trigger on the SSK-33 model from ebay, I asked for 5000K lamp option & they have it.

Now, with my finger crossed, I hope I'll get the HID light exactly as shown in the picture,
with a real 5000K lamp. I am not innocent enough to just trust what they say, there'll 
be a some degree of luck required to get the light exactly what I ordered, and working 

Through my digging, I found that SSK is model number by Xeccon.
and Xeccon is a brand frequently seen in the ebay 35w to 65W HIDS. 

I manged to find their website:
http://flashlightbox.com/brand.php?brandid=28

Now, they do not have model SSK-33 listed. According to the ebay seller, that's because 
IT's new model. I hope it's true...


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## Patriot (Apr 26, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

The SSK-33 reminds me a lot of the Microfire. I hope it turns out to be a nice light for ya!


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## Xuen7 (Apr 26, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

If only there was a way to source out their main supplier... so irritating to have to many shops selling exactly the same thing... 

Anyways ma_sha i am interested in your products but i am from Singapore and it seems you only ship around US.. Do you think we could help each other out here? lemme know via PM



ma_sha1 said:


> Well, let's bring this thread back on track. It's about the more attractive New HID designs.
> I pulled the trigger on the SSK-33 model from ebay, I asked for 5000K lamp option & they have it.
> 
> Now, with my finger crossed, I hope I'll get the HID light exactly as shown in the picture,
> ...


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## 2100 (Apr 26, 2011)

This product is not untested, unrated nor. I actually tested the run time like nearly 10 times. There are also lots of beamshots. This new 24W version and the newer 20/28/35W is all part of the family in addition to the 28/35, 38/50, 40/65W...etc. 

Some hate it to the core, but I like it. If one is using it professionally but not in a very harsh environment, and the company is not big and non-military and cannot afford to pay for like 2 dozens of SR90 or something (or 2 dozen Polarions LOL!), then I am not sure what is a viable solution. We need to use about 2 dozen lights.....plus a couple of HID throwers. 

Basically its a part thrower and part flooder. Again some like this style, some don't.


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## 2100 (Apr 26, 2011)

BTW the replacement batts is about the price of buying individual 18650s. If that worries you then you can buy another one to keep at 40% level....that'll last you for a good couple of years. The longest version for the 50W and 65W version, 11.7V 7800mah 3S3P pack, is just usd50....usd5 per 18650 and gets me decent runtime (about 75mins for the 65W flashlight, with the 6600mah pack, and I timed that multiple times).


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Whoever is interested in the 24W light I'd suggest the 20/28/35W version on Aliexpress, only $112 & build in the same unattractive body. 
24W is extremely inefficient @ merely 50lumens per watt, will only produce around 1200 lumens, not 2000 lumens and throw about 45K lux. Many SST/XML Leds can beat or match that throw. the 35W mode should exceed 100K lux 
(if thge ballst truly output 35W on high), due to much higher efficiency beside power increase.


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## 2100 (Apr 27, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*

Type in 20W HID and check out Shenzhen Haiwang Sensor Ltd 
Offering free shipping DHL to SG, I think USA is also applicable (so you do not have to wait 3-4 weeks). usd124 for the 20/28/35W, I think the body design texturing and knurling also changed a bit, its slightly better.


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## 2100 (Apr 27, 2011)

They have it at usd124, DHL shipping included even to US customers. The $112 version is gonna take longer than 4-5 weeks with the Aliexpress fufillment shipping.

Agree that the single lower wattage 24W inefficiency would really be not useful in reality.
A 2-cell Trustfire X8 XM-L with type III anodizing and better SMO costs only usd50 shipped from HK. Throw in 2 cheap Ultrafires and you are done, decent runtimes there.
Some may want a slightly thicker form factor like the Mag or RL-2088 (but not > 250mm long! Like the 380mm 65W ones), so this HID may be it.


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## Norm (Apr 27, 2011)

Two similar thread merged.
Norm


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 27, 2011)

*Re: New attractive China HID options*



2100 said:


> Type in 20W HID and check out Shenzhen Haiwang Sensor Ltd
> Offering free shipping DHL to SG, I think USA is also applicable (so you do not have to wait 3-4 weeks). usd124 for the 20/28/35W, I think the body design texturing and knurling also changed a bit, its slightly better.



If you look closer, you'll see the manual next to the light isn't for the 20/28/35W. Can't trust their pictures.


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## JulianP (Apr 28, 2011)

ma_sha1 said:


> Whoever is interested in the 24W light I'd suggest the 20/28/35W version on Aliexpress, only $112



Well, I received mine today and posted my first impressions, and photos, here.


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