# SANYO Announces C- and D-sized ‘eneloop’ Batteries



## Rumpis (Aug 8, 2008)

SANYO Announces C- and D-sized ‘eneloop’ Batteries and Universal Charger


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## Aussie Cheese (Aug 8, 2008)

nice charger, but the capacities are little to be desired


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## Kremer (Aug 8, 2008)

nice but...
C = ~3000mAh
D = ~5700mAh

That's all ?


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## mdocod (Aug 8, 2008)

CONTAIN A PTC?!?!

this is going to get complicated....


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## PhotonBoy (Aug 8, 2008)

I think PTC means Positive Temperature Coefficient'

see: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1102338.html

"1. A PTC device exhibiting *positive temperature coefficient* behaviour and having a pair of outlet electrodes formed integrally on its surface, wherein the PTC device is characterized by at least one of said pair of outlet electrodes being an electrode section formed on a PCB substrate on which are mounted said PTC device and other electronic components such as field effect transistors, semiconductor integrated circuits, and the like."


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## phenwick (Aug 8, 2008)

At least we are seeing advancements in the eneloop field. I think capacities will increase with time. I had a slight fear that Sanyo might abandon the eneloops if they never caught on with the main stream consumer.

I also like the flexibility of the charger, using adapters for the C-D and AA-AAA positions. They could have chosen to have made it 2 of each size and left it at that. Nice touch.

On another note, I can't tell you how long I have been waiting for *"antibacterial" *cells.:laughing:


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## metlarules (Aug 8, 2008)

No Thanks! I'll stick to my $5 nicads at 7000mah that have the same lsd properties. Why is the capacity so low? The Accupower evolutions are lsd and 10000mah.


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## Bones (Aug 8, 2008)

mdocod said:


> CONTAIN A PTC?!?!
> 
> this is going to get complicated....



Perhaps not, providing the device itself exhibits predicable behaviour, which I presume it must:







I'm curious as to whether this is a new approach to protection devices.

I like that it appears to step up the resistance as the temperature rises rather than wait until a critical junction is reached and then just shut down.

Wouldn't this approach be more reliable, offer better protection to the cell and, perhaps most importantly, lesson the odds of being left in the dark?


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## monkeyboy (Aug 8, 2008)

Aussie Cheese said:


> nice charger, but the capacities are little to be desired



Agreed. 3 AA eneloops in a 3 AA to D converter would offer similar capacity to the D cell and also have the option of series connection.


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## cy (Aug 8, 2008)

thought exact same thing before getting my AA enloops. 

now my thinking is entirely changed. if your application requires a total discharge in one setting. then std NMH is your best choice. applications in the real world for me anyways... almost never need a total discharge. usages is in spurts with down time inbetween. with std NMH it's self discharging during waits. 

so actual battery performance for say a digital camera is improved. actual usable MAH has gone up, despite total MAH has gone down. 



metlarules said:


> No Thanks! I'll stick to my $5 nicads at 7000mah that have the same lsd properties. Why is the capacity so low? The Accupower evolutions are lsd and 10000mah.


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## Bones (Aug 8, 2008)

phenwick said:


> ...
> On another note, I can't tell you how long I have been waiting for *"antibacterial" *cells.:laughing:



They may not be a totally frivolous innovation. This article in the Seattle Times gives us cause to re-think the 'real men' concept towards antibacterial products in public places:

UW students find fecal coliform on campus keyboards ...


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## lctorana (Aug 8, 2008)

I have large numbers of 4, 4.5 and 5Ah NiCad D cells, all of which exhibit negligible self-discharge.

Whether I buy many Eneloop Ds will come down to price.

But, that said, w00t!

:twothumbs:thanks::thumbsup:


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## rizky_p (Aug 8, 2008)

*Re: SANYO Announces C- and D-sized ‘eneloop’ Batteries*

i am a bit puzzled with the capacity. But the new charger looks nice.


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## Darkpower (Aug 8, 2008)

Kremer said:


> nice but...
> C = ~3000mAh
> D = ~5700mAh
> 
> That's all ?


Nevertheless its welcomed news. :twothumbs


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## cy (Aug 8, 2008)

what brands are you using? 

all mine are titanium NMH C & D cells and exhibit self-discharge. 

energizer AA 2500 are among the worst cells I've ever used. high self-discharge rates and high % have gone dead. 



lctorana said:


> I have large numbers of 4, 4.5 and 5Ah NiCad D cells, all of which exhibit negligible self-discharge.
> 
> Whether I buy many Eneloop Ds will come down to price.
> 
> ...


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## JWP_EE (Aug 8, 2008)

By adding a PTC in series with the cell the internal resistance will go up. You will have the cell resistance and the PTC resistance. It is the current through the PTC that causes the PTC to heat up although external heat and heat from the cell will change the trip point.
The amount of current the cell can supply will now be set by the PTC trip point. The trip current is usually 2X the hold current. When a PTC trips it goes to a high resistance and will stay there until it resets (cools).
This is being done for short circuit protection. But what you pay for this protection is less voltage from the cell for a given current (small voltage drop across the PTC) and possibly less current capability if you are looking to draw large currents.
I hope this is only being done on the C and D cells.


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## Black Rose (Aug 8, 2008)

cy said:


> what brands are you using?
> 
> all mine are titanium NMH C & D cells and exhibit self-discharge.


He's using NiCd cells, not NiMh cells.


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## Mr Happy (Aug 8, 2008)

Since AA size Eneloops can comfortably supply more than 10 A when shorted, I expect the unprotected D size cells could manage 40 - 50 A, perhaps more. Perhaps Sanyo thought this was a bit of a concern since an accidental short would lead to red hot wires, smoke and possibly burns.

It could be that this is another reason why the big names like Energizer only supply D size cells in 2500 mAh capacity.


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## alfreddajero (Aug 8, 2008)

I wish they would come out with some higher mah aa's....this is some good news though.


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## Black Rose (Aug 8, 2008)

The only issue I see with the charger is that it appears the charge rates for all cells except the AAAs seem to go against the 0.33C minimum charge rate rule for charging NiMh cells.

I showed the picture of the charger to my wife. Her response..."What, no 9V rechargables?"


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## lowatts (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm glad they finally are getting these out. Should be great quality, judging by the AA Eneloops, and they have good protection built-in for accidental/careless handling. I would've thought they could squeeze a little more capacity into them though. I just hope they will sell at reasonable prices.


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## Mr Happy (Aug 8, 2008)

Black Rose said:


> The only issue I see with the charger is that it appears the charge rates for all cells except the AAAs seem to go against the 0.33C minimum charge rate rule for charging NiMh cells.


In the description of the charger, Sanyo say that it uses a special peak voltage detection method and that this prevents overcharging. So it may be different from −ΔV and there would be less chance of missed termination or overcharging when using the lower rates.


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## Chodes (Aug 8, 2008)

Capacity is a little dissapointing. Curious as to current capabilities. Eneloop AAs are good for 5-6A, wonder how the Cs and Ds will do. That's what will really determine how useful they are. (and if the low discharge performance is as good as the AAs)


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## Bones (Aug 8, 2008)

lowatts said:


> ...
> I would've thought they could squeeze a little more capacity into them though.
> ...



I'm sure they could have.

But I also think it bodes well for us that they resisted that temptation.

To my way of thinking, this fact alone significantly increases the odds that the Eneloop C and D cells will perform as well and last as long as their smaller siblings.

The AA and AAA cells have been on the market for close to three years now, and reports of failures and/or sub standard performance remain virtually non-existent.

I will gladly trade this record for a little, or even a lot of initial of capacity in the C and D cells as well.

Of course, there could be major down side. If you buy sufficient Eneloops initially, any desire to purchase more will probably have to remain largely unsatisfied because, unlike their Energizer counterparts, they really should keep going and going...


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 8, 2008)

This is *great* news. At least Sanyo's moving away from the dreadful *AA spacer snake oil* they have been pushing for the last year or so. They have taken their heads out of a very, very dark place indeed and in the long run it will mean more great products for us from many sources -- just like their AAs and AAAs *already have.*


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## mdocod (Aug 8, 2008)

when I said "this is going to get complicated" I didn't mean to imply that I didn't know what a PTC is or does, what I meant was, it used to be that current limiting devices, in the flashlight industry, were pretty much limited to loose li-ion cells. Now we have a circumstance where a PTC in a NIMH cell may be an issue for certain builds- we don't know how sensitive it is- will it sever the circuit during initial in-rush current on a cold high current bulb? No way to know at this point I guess, but the point is, as soon as we start talking about PTCs for NIMH AND Li-ion, there will certainly be increased levels of confusion abound. 

Eric


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## CM (Aug 9, 2008)

mdocod said:


> ...will it sever the circuit during initial in-rush current on a cold high current bulb? No way to know at this point I guess, but the point is, as soon as we start talking about PTCs for NIMH AND Li-ion, there will certainly be increased levels of confusion abound.
> 
> Eric



PTC's that I know (resettable fuse applications) tend to act more like "slow blow" since they work on temperature. They also add resistance so they are less than ideal for high current devices. But they may also use PTC's with different properties for cell protection :shrug:


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## jerry i h (Aug 9, 2008)

OK, here is a challenge.
I have many 5AH D-cell NiCd's that have the following properties:
1) cost only $5 each
2) they are recharged in a cheap-o, $20 charger
3) I can run 'em flat into the ground
4) they cranked out 7+ amps powering a 4 x P7 torch
5) they are 'reasonably' low LSD
How are theoretical Eneloop D cells any better? 
I have AAA Eneloops, but I prefer to use NiCd AAA's for the reasons above.
Anyone?


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## metlarules (Aug 9, 2008)

I agree with Jerry I H. I'm going to stick with my nicads at least until they up the mah of the eneloop d cell.And then only if the price is reasonable.
Bang for the buck I don't see any battery company beating the 7000mah for $5 price point anytime soon.


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## lctorana (Aug 9, 2008)

I agree, price will be the eventual decider.

I disagee about AA, though, as Eneloops have fully double the capacity of my best AA NiCads, so the extra price of Eneloop (or in my case Sony CycleEnergy) over NiCad is very easily justified.

And while I'm on the subject of AA cells, I note that LSD AAs are NO DEARER than conventional NiMH AAs in Australian supermarkets & variety stores, so I have room to hope the C & D cells may be reasonably competitively priced.


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## lctorana (Aug 9, 2008)

.


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## metlarules (Aug 9, 2008)

I also use eneloop aa's. For d cell I have 8 7ah nicads and 8 10ah tenergy mimh.I am going to take a wait and see approach on the eneloop d cells. If they are inexpensive compared to their capacity I might try a few.


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## lctorana (Aug 9, 2008)

.


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## Phaserburn (Aug 9, 2008)

Maybe Sanyo is keeping the capacity lower than max to keep consumer cost down? I can't see these being hugely popular if they cost $20 for a 2/pack.

Looking forward to them. Release date? They will find homes in many of my flashlights and lanterns.


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## Black Rose (Aug 9, 2008)

They are saying a September 12 release date in Japan.

When the AA & AAA Eneloops were released in Japan, how long did it take before they were available to the rest of the world?


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## tslrc (Aug 9, 2008)




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## Bones (Aug 9, 2008)

Black Rose said:


> They are saying a September 12 release date in Japan.
> 
> When the AA & AAA Eneloops were released in Japan, how long did it take before they were available to the rest of the world?



A few months for Europe, a solid year or more for North America.

I doubt that will be the case with these cells though. The respective Eneloop divisions outside of Asia, which didn't really exist when the smaller cells were introduced, will surely make all kinds of noise if they're deprived of immediate stocks.

We also know from the persistence of cells manufactured in mid 2006 that Sanyo can produce vast quantities of Eneloops in relatively brief periods of time with no compromise in quality.


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## Illum (Aug 9, 2008)

alfreddajero said:


> I wish they would come out with some higher mah aa's....this is some good news though.



at the cost of LSD? not a chance:nana:

I rather see reduced capacity than hyped capacity for any rechargeable cells, saves us from having to test for duds and more accurate in estimating runtimes.


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## Bones (Aug 9, 2008)

I've consoled myself when buying NiCD cells that they would be recycled, so my usage was close to environmentally neutral.

The attached report from the United States Geological Survey makes it abundantly clear that rationale simply isn't valid.

They have determined that regardless of all the publicity, the vast majority of NiCD cells still don't get recycled.

It's therefore apparent that as long as there is a demand, NiCD cells will continue to be manufactured and continue to release very significant amounts of toxins into our environment.

There is also the fact that the majority are now made in China, which makes it likely that the workers involved in their production are being exposed to their toxicity as well.

These new Eneloop cells should make the transition to NiMH chemistry in the C and D sizes relatively painless, which has me thinking there's no longer any excuse whatsoever to refrain from doing my part to stifle the demand for NiCD cells...





Click on the image to download the full report from usgs.gov. It's a .pdf document.


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 9, 2008)

I have no guilt about my use of NiCDs at all. All of mine get recycled. I'm not responsible for how others dispose of their's...or whether they eat Big Macs or any number other things that they do. 

NiMH cells in general haven't been around very long when compared to NiCD's +100 year history of cell and charger development. LSD NiMH cells are _far younger_ yet. Even a cursory look around will reveal a surprising number of tasks that NiCDs are the most appropriate for and some things that may only be done with NiCDs. This is why they are still being sold. *These are facts of life.* 

As time goes by NiMH and LSD cells will get better and cheaper and take over more of the load from NiCDs. With any luck at all LSD cells will replace more and more NiCD cells in the consumer market _but it's going to take time._ It's not something I'm going to wring my hands over.


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## Illum (Aug 9, 2008)

Sub_Umbra said:


> I have no guilt about my use of NiCDs at all. All of mine get recycled. I'm not responsible for how others dispose of their's...or whether they eat Big Macs or any number other things that they do.



well, regardless of whether or not _you _recycle them, its the technology and investments the recycle plant that limits the amount of cadmium being extracted from recycled batteries:candle:


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## jerry i h (Aug 9, 2008)

Bones said:


> ...There is also the fact that the majority are now made in China, which makes it likely that the workers involved in their production are being exposed to their toxicity as well...


 
Try this: http://www.batterystation.com/nicads.htm
they have NiCd's that are still being made in France. I do not know if they are any better than the NiCd D's made in China I got, but next time I buy 'em, this is where I will get them.


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## jerry i h (Aug 9, 2008)

Sub_Umbra said:


> ...As time goes by NiMH and LSD cells will get better and cheaper and take over more of the load from NiCDs. With any luck at all LSD cells will replace more and more NiCD cells in the consumer market _but it's going to take time._..


 
Keep dreamin', my friend; maybe someday it will come true, but not right now...:nana:


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 9, 2008)

"...but not right now."

Yup, that's what I said.


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## metlarules (Aug 9, 2008)

1) Nimh batteries isn't going to get less expensive. If anything they will climb in price to pay for the new lsd technology.2)I will continue to use nicads until a better technology comes out at the same or cheaper price than $5 per cell. If these Eneloop d cells are reasonably priced I might pick up a few to try. However I'm not holding my breath for $5 eneloop d cells.3) When my nicads are dead and no longer usable I will recycle them. It's the recycling centers problem to get rid of them properly not mine.


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 9, 2008)

Competition and the 'economy of scale' *will* moderate the prices of LSD cells somewhat in the future. This has _already begun_ with the AA and AAA form factors. There may be only a few factories producing them right now but there is already a plethora of brands of LSD cells out there and even this early into the game we are in no way locked into paying what Sanyo dictates for LSD AAs and AAAs. They no longer hold all of the cards.

Now that Sanyo is going ahead with LSD Cs and Ds many others will jump into the fray, as they already have with AAs and AAAs. Competion and the economy of scale will help keep prices more fair than if we all just had to buy them from Sanyo forever -- _but it will take a while._

If you really want to figure out ways of making LSD cells cheaper, do something that increases their market share. Somehow get it through the masses heads that it's stupid to keep driving 2,000 lb cars to the drugstore...to buy alkalines.


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## Turbo DV8 (Aug 9, 2008)

cy said:


> ...so actual battery performance for say a digital camera is improved. actual usable MAH has gone up, despite total MAH has gone down.


 

True, but I don't have any more digital cameras that take D cells! 

Seriously, regarding capacity, it seems Sanyo could have upped the capacity a bit more and still had a good LSD cell. We know that the 2500 mAh AA cells in general, and Energizer specifically, are pretty dismal in the self-discharge arena. So Sanyo comes up with a solid performer at 2000 mAh. That's 20% less capacity than a 2500. My non-LSD Maha PowerEx D cells, which actually hold a charge pretty decently, are rated at 12,000 mAh, and I have tested all twelve of mine and confirmed that they return between 11,000-12,000 mAh. So, for the sake of argument, let's say my 12,000 mAh PowerEx's actually don't hold a charge well since they are technically non-LSD. The new LSD Sanyo D cells are 6000 mAh. If Sanyo can make a decent AA cell with only 20% less capacity than the 2500 mAh non-LSD AA cells, why do their new LSD D cells have 50% less capacity than what is actually a very decent and capable performer in the D cell category, the 12,000 mAh PowerEx? I am no chemist, but it seems they could have offered up a bit more on the plate for these D cells.


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## metlarules (Aug 9, 2008)

I really hope this isn't a feeler so to speak by Sanyo because they will fail WHOLESALE at 5700mah for a D cell. I do wish them well!!!!!!


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## IMSabbel (Aug 9, 2008)

I see no sense in this product. Way to ruin a brand.
Take a look at an eneloop AA. You will agree that its LSD. And that it has 2Ah.
Now take 3 of them, and a AA to D converter.
Now you get a D-cell that has more capacity and LSD.

And look how much space is wasted between those batteries, the individual casings, etc.

To put it in numbers:

one Eneloop AA: 2000mAh, 14.5mm diameter. 50.5mm height -> 8.3cm^3 -> 0.24 Ah /cm^3
one Eneloop D : 5700mAh, 34.2mm diameter. 61.5mm height -> 56.5 cm^3 -> 0.10 Ah /cm^3

And this doesnt even take into account that you have less surface on the D-cell, and thus have to waste less space for the casing.

Seriously, they dont have to be proud of themselves for that product. In my eyes its no different than those Energizer Sub-c-cells in the big fat D-spacer sold as "D-cell rechargeables"


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## TorchBoy (Aug 9, 2008)

Like many here, I just can't understand the lower than expected capacity. Unless they're very inexpensive I can't see much point in not continuing using AA to D adaptors.

I'm also disappointed to see the limit with connecting the cells in series. "If more than 10 battery cells are connected in a series, the PTC overheating function may not work properly, so do not use series connections with more than 10 battery cells."

Does the PTC reset? If so, how many times can it expand and shrink before it stays expanded and permanently contributes to high resistance?


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## Mr Happy (Aug 9, 2008)

I think I am going to assume that 10,000 - 12,000 mAh rechargeable cells are not consumer-friendly. There are no cheap, regular chargers out there that can handle them, and the chargers that can are bulky and expensive.

I imagine Sanyo are aiming for the mainstream consumer market, not the technically sophisticated specialist market.

If you wanted to charge 12,000 mAh cells in 4 hours at 0.25 C, you would need a charger that supplied 3 A per cell. Even the expensive MH-C9000 only manages 2 A per cell, and it gets pretty hot doing it.


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## PhantomPhoton (Aug 9, 2008)

Interesting. I'm going to wait for reviews of them before I buy any if those dismal capacities are true. I'd like to see how they compare to the LSD C and D cells that are already on the market.


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## Bones (Aug 9, 2008)

Tough crowd this.

Anyway, I can only imagine the pressure the marketing division must have asserted to round the D cell's capacity up to a much more respectable sounding 6000mAh, especially since it only involved a paltry 300mAh.

I still maintain the fact that Sanyo resisted this temptation, and instead brought the cell to market with such an odd capacity speaks well for their corporate integrity and bodes well for the consumer.

I would much rather they disappointed us at the outset with a lower than expected capacity than with otherwise inflated and/or misleading claims and less than stellar performance.

Only time will tell how they actually perform, but I remain hopeful that once we get past the capacity shock, we're in for a some pleasant surprises from these cells.


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## lctorana (Aug 9, 2008)

Well I'm not disappointed.

There, I've said it.


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 10, 2008)

Sanyo is not designing these C and C bateries for CPF'ers, where we want the best of all worlds, great runtime, very, very high discharge under load, and low self discharge. The AA Eneloops were designed for low self discharge, fairly high current draw, and decent runtime, what a camera requires. We were very fortunate that we got the side benefits for our lighting uses.

Bill


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## geek4christ (Aug 10, 2008)

This is great news. I'm not terribly concerned about low capacity so long as they really do retain their charge and behave well under loads like their little brothers. Quite frankly I'd buy an Eneloop D cell for $5 or $6 per cell long before I'll buy the AccuPower D cells at $12 ea. Even with roughly half the capacity.


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 10, 2008)

Bones said:


> Tough crowd this.
> 
> Anyway, I can only imagine the pressure the marketing division must have asserted to round the D cell's capacity up to a much more respectable sounding 6000mAh, especially since it only involved a paltry 300mAh.
> 
> ...


Well said. I think that there is news to rejoice about here. For those who absolutely must have it all now -- well, too bad -- ain't gonna happen -- well, not today or tomorrow, anyway.


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## metlarules (Aug 10, 2008)

geek4christ said:


> This is great news. I'm not terribly concerned about low capacity so long as they really do retain their charge and behave well under loads like their little brothers. Quite frankly I'd buy an Eneloop D cell for $5 or $6 per cell long before I'll buy the AccuPower D cells at $12 ea. Even with roughly half the capacity.


 

They will not be $5 or $6 a cell. You can bet that they will be at least twice that. If they come in at $10 a cell that means that I can get 14000mah in 2 cells for what this one will cost for 5700mah. No thank you I will pass.You can get 4 aa lsd Sanyo batteries for $10.I do like the Sanyo aa lsd batteries and think that they hit a home run with them.Something tells me that we will be shocked at the asking price of the new d cell lsd's.


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 10, 2008)

metlarules said:


> They will not be $5 or $6 a cell. You can bet that they will be at least twice that. If they come in at $10 a cell that means that I can get 14000mah in 2 cells for what this one will cost for 5700mah. No thank you I will pass.You can get 4 aa lsd Sanyo batteries for $10.I do like the Sanyo aa lsd batteries and think that they hit a home run with them.Something tells me that we will be shocked at the asking price of the new d cell lsd's.



You won't get that 14000mAh unless you run two of those cells in parallel. So up to 1.4 volts, or so with 14000mA's. Two of those cells in series would be up to 2.8 volts or so with 7000mAh.

Bill


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 10, 2008)

mdocod said:


> when I said "this is going to get complicated" I didn't mean to imply that I didn't know what a PTC is or does, what I meant was, it used to be that current limiting devices, in the flashlight industry, were pretty much limited to loose li-ion cells. Now we have a circumstance where a PTC in a NIMH cell may be an issue for certain builds- we don't know how sensitive it is- will it sever the circuit during initial in-rush current on a cold high current bulb? No way to know at this point I guess, but the point is, as soon as we start talking about PTCs for NIMH AND Li-ion, there will certainly be increased levels of confusion abound.
> 
> Eric



+1

The PTC could have a myriad of settings, and I'll decide on my protection settings. Personally, I don't use enough C or D cells to care about these one way or the other. 6 - 7 Volts is the minimal starting point for most things I use, so using 5+ of these C or D cells is irrelevant to me.


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## metlarules (Aug 10, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> You won't get that 14000mAh unless you run two of those cells in parallel. So up to 1.4 volts, or so with 14000mA's. Two of those cells in series would be up to 2.8 volts or so with 7000mAh.
> 
> Bill


I am comparing mah per dollar.Once the cell gets low just swap it out for another.


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## TorchBoy (Aug 10, 2008)

metlarules said:


> They will not be $5 or $6 a cell. You can bet that they will be at least twice that.


I agree, but I'd very happily be proven wrong.


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 10, 2008)

I would avoid attaching potential future prices to these products. It will end up being a distraction in the long run. Money is not a constant. I could elaborate but then...you know...


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## Bones (Aug 13, 2008)

Current prices at biccamera.com:

4 AA-Sized Eneloop Cells (HR-4UTG-4BP) (1,480 Yen) (13.62 USD)
http://www.biccamera.com ... PRODUCT=0010109695 (Google Translation)

1 C-Sized Eneloop Cell (HR-2UTG-1BP) (1,380 Yen) (12.71 USD)
http://www.biccamera.com ... PRODUCT=0010286816 (Google Translation)

1 D-Sized Eneloop Cell (HR-1UTG-1BP) (1,680 Yen) (15.47 USD)
http://www.biccamera.com ... PRODUCT=0010286815 (Google Translation)

1 Multi-Sized Cell Eneloop Charger (NC-TGU01) (4,980 Yen) (45.87 USD)
http://www.biccamera.com ... PRODUCT=0010286817 (Google Translation)

1 Solar-Powered Eneloop Charger (N-SC1S) (19,800 Yen) (182.44 USD)
http://www.biccamera.com ... PRODUCT=0010202820 (Google Translation)

BIC Camera Eneloop Product Search (Many unavailable in North America)
http://www.biccamera.com ... SEARCH=eneloop&SORT=2 (Google Translation)


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## smokelaw1 (Aug 13, 2008)

Edit: Didn't read whole thread, found my answer.


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## geek4christ (Aug 13, 2008)

Thanks for the links Bones.


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## metlarules (Aug 13, 2008)

$15.47. No thanks! I'll pass.


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## bob_ninja (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: SANYO Announces C- and D-sized ‘eneloop’ Batteries*

Nice work Bones, thanks 

metlarules, before you jump to conclusions ....

Prices in US are often lower. For instance, he lists 4 AAs @ $13.62
while I bought them from TD on sale for $9.97, or 27% discount

So D eneloop @ $15.47 discounted to US level would be $11.30 for 5.7Ah

Hmmmmm

So I can get 8Ah from 4AA package for a buck less. sigh 
It is just so hard to justify D format cells with so much better pricing for AAs.


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## metlarules (Aug 13, 2008)

Even at $10 a cell it's expensive for 5.7mah. Don't get me wrong I'm sure Sanyo will put out a quality product.It's just that I will save my money until they increase the capacity to at least 10 mah.


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## Bones (Aug 13, 2008)

I've just noticed what may actually be some good news about the capacity of the Eneloop C & D cells.

The e-life-sanyo.com site lists all the Eneloop cell capacities at their minimum instead of typical capacity, ie: 750mAh instead of 800mAh for the AAA cell:





(Google Translation)

If this analogy holds, then the typical capacity of the D cell would probably exceed 6000mAh and, more importantly, should never fall below 5700mAh:





(Google Translation)

Interesting...

PS: Also just in, Eneloop C & D cell and Universal Charger pricing report in post 64.


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## IMSabbel (Aug 13, 2008)

Bones said:


> I've just noticed what may actually be some good news about the capacity of the Eneloop C & D cells.
> 
> The e-life-sanyo.com site lists all the Eneloop cell capacities at their minimum instead of typical capacity, ie: 750mAh instead of 800mAh for the AAA cell:



Well, that means now i am very much convinced that the D-cell will only be 3AAs in a filler casing. With the spare few mm in height filled with the PTC-element.
Why should they develope a new production process if they can just reuse their current parts for _exactly_ the same device properties?


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## Mr Happy (Aug 13, 2008)

It's too suspicious, isn't it?

Min capacity for AA = 1900 mAh.
Min capacity for D = 5700 mAh.

3 x 1900 mAh = 5700 mAh.


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## tslrc (Aug 13, 2008)

Looks like someone will need to 'Operate'  once these become available.


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## Black Rose (Aug 13, 2008)

Mr Happy said:


> It's too suspicious, isn't it?
> 
> Min capacity for AA = 1900 mAh.
> Min capacity for D = 5700 mAh.
> ...


Min capacity for AAA = 750 mAh.
Min capacity of C = 3000 mAh.

4 x 750mAh = 3000 mAh. 

:thinking:


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## Black Rose (Aug 13, 2008)

tslrc said:


> Looks like someone will need to 'Operate'  once these become available.


I think these cells are a tad too expensive to be cut open just to see if they are simply 3 AA cells.


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## lctorana (Aug 14, 2008)

Black Rose said:


> I think these cells are a tad too expensive to be cut open just to see if they are simply 3 AA cells.


Oh come one.

This is CPF.

Where people think that $100 for a torch is moderately priced.


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## TorchBoy (Aug 14, 2008)

Well _some_one's going to do it. And it really does look like we can guess what will be inside.


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## Turbo DV8 (Aug 14, 2008)

So, does anybody currently make a 3AA-to-D adapter shell that configures the cells in parallel instead of series? If not, why not? If so, it must be hella cheaper than one of these "new" Eneloop D cells. Wouldn't mind having a few adapters like this to use with my AA's as backup to my PowerEx D cells.


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## metlarules (Aug 14, 2008)

This is starting to smell like the Energizer nimh d cell with 2500mahonly with 3 aa cells.


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## Daekar (Aug 14, 2008)

Well this settles it, then... I'm sticking with NiCads or some other LSD NiMH brand...


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## Black Rose (Aug 14, 2008)

Turbo DV8 said:


> So, does anybody currently make a 3AA-to-D adapter shell that configures the cells in parallel instead of series? If not, why not? If so, it must be hella cheaper than one of these "new" Eneloop D cells. Wouldn't mind having a few adapters like this to use with my AA's as backup to my PowerEx D cells.


There are some AA -> D adapters available that let you configure 1 - 4 AA cells. I was going to order some, but the shipping cost was insane for me

EDIT: Here they are: http://www.aventrade.com/baad.html


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## Bones (Aug 14, 2008)

This Eneloop C and D cell adapter theory is getting interesting, but I remain very skeptical.

According to the Eneloop specifications, an AAA cell weighs 13 grams and a C cell weighs 60 grams:







In order to abide by the 4 AAA cells into 1 C cell theory (4 x 750mAh AAA cells = 1 x 3000mAh C cell), the cells themselves would account for 52 grams, leaving just 8 grams to account for the top and bottom metal contacts, the adapter body and the ptc.

It this enough?

The weight issue doesn't appear to be as critical with the 3 AAA cells into 1 D cell theory (3 x 1900mAh AA cells = 1 x 5700mAh D cell).

According to the Eneloop specifications an AA cell weighs 27 grams and a D cell weighs 100 grams:







In this case, the 3 AA cells would account 81 grams, leaving 19 grams for the remainder of the D cell.

These 'exploded' views of the Energizer D cell may provide some clues as to what's involved with the type of implementation being theorized for the Eneloop C and D cells:


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## metlarules (Aug 14, 2008)

The next question I have is who is going to be the guinea pig?


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## Mr Happy (Aug 14, 2008)

There's no need to take one apart. It just needs an X-ray machine. Take some through an airport and look at the screen as they get scanned...


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## metlarules (Aug 14, 2008)

Good point. Also,if we have any xray techs out there they could take one to the hospital for us.


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## LukeA (Aug 14, 2008)

It'd still be cheaper and easier to just take one apart.


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## Mr Happy (Aug 14, 2008)

I don't get that.

Cost of X-ray: $0
Cost of taking one apart: $12+


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## Black Rose (Aug 14, 2008)

Mr Happy said:


> I don't get that.
> 
> Cost of X-ray: $0
> Cost of taking one apart: $12+


Cost of X-ray: $0 + cost of plane ticket 

Could you even X-ray a battery at an X-Ray lab, since it has metals in it?


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## Mr Happy (Aug 14, 2008)

Black Rose said:


> Could you even X-ray a battery at an X-Ray lab, since it has metals in it?


Sure. It would need a thick layer of lead to prevent imaging.


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## IMSabbel (Aug 14, 2008)

Bones said:


> This Eneloop C and D cell adapter theory is getting interesting, but I remain very skeptical.
> 
> According to the Eneloop specifications, an AAA cell weighs 13 grams and a C cell weighs 60 grams:



You forget one thing:
Now that you have a big casing, you can leave out parts of the individual casings, which shaves of a gram or two per cell.

I also dont quite understand why you think that 19g for "the rest of the parts" would be little for a D-cell.
Thats quite an amount of heft, and a strong steel-can as big as a d-cell wont be as heavy.
Also, in the pictures you showed, i do not think those plastic parts weight more then 4 or 5 grams. A cm^3 is good for a lood of thin stiffening parts....


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## Bones (Aug 14, 2008)

Mr Happy said:


> There's no need to take one apart. It just needs an X-ray machine. Take some through an airport and look at the screen as they get scanned...



While an x-ray will resolve the big question, if they truly are 'adapted' cells an x-ray will lack the viseral satisfaction of seeing the cell deconstructed and all the little parts laid out for our perusal.

Accordingly, if an x-ray determines they are adapted cells, I would be more than willing to contribute towards a fund for the purchase of a C and D cell by someone with good photography skills and, preferably, access to a professional grade band-saw...


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## metlarules (Aug 14, 2008)

Bones said:


> While an x-ray will resolve the big question, if they truly are 'adapted' cells an x-ray will lack the viseral satisfaction of seeing the cell deconstructed and all the little parts laid out for our perusal.
> 
> Accordingly, if an x-ray determines they are adapted cells, I would be more than willing to contribute towards a fund for the purchase of a C and D cell by someone with good photography skills and, preferably, access to a professional grade band-saw...


 
I couldn't help but to laugh at this post.Only on cpf are we willing to buy something brand new/state of the art and immediately rip it to shreds to see what makes it tick.You got to love it!:devil:Count me in..


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## tstartrekdude (Aug 17, 2008)

well....you know if you take one of the new c cells apart and find 4 aaaa's its not a complete lost, now you got 4 aaaa eneloops


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## billw (Aug 25, 2008)

> C = ~3000mAh
> D = ~5700mAh


Hmm. This is an "interesting" compromise between "as much power as will fit" (as we CPF'ers would like to see) and "stuff an AA capacity cell in a bigger case" as many of the other "consumer" rechargables seem to do (Energizer D cell: 2500mAh. Duracell doesn't have C or D rechargeables. Rayovac has pictures of C/D rechargable cells, but doesn't seem to actually sell them. Radio shack has a 4500mAh D cell...)
This could put eneloop at the top of the capacity ratings for "consumer" batteries. Which is a nice precedent. I suppose we'll have to see how the prices fall out before we decide whether they're worth buying...


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## Black Rose (Aug 25, 2008)

billw said:


> Rayovac has pictures of C/D rechargable cells, but doesn't seem to actually sell them.


Check Wally World. I've seen the D cells (non LSD) there before.


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## Skibane (Aug 30, 2008)

Black Rose said:


> There are some AA -> D adapters available that let you configure 1 - 4 AA cells. I was going to order some, but the shipping cost was insane for me
> 
> EDIT: Here they are: http://www.aventrade.com/baad.html



Slight thread hijack, but most brands* of NiMH AA cells will not fit 4 astride inside a D-side [email protected] light, even without an adapter present - The inside diameter of the flashlight body is simply too small to accommodate 4 of them sitting next to each other. You might be able to omit one AA cell in Aventrade's 4-cell adapter (i.e., just use 3 cells), but then that leaves some space on one side of the adapter for it to shift off-center (and possibly lose electrical contact).

*A few random brands of AA cells I checked:
Kodak NiMH 2100 mAH Pre-Charged: Won't fit
Lacrosse NiMH 2400 mAH: Won't fit
Sanyo NiMH 2500 mAH: Won't fit
NEXcell NiMH 2100 mAH: Won't fit
Digital NiMH 2200 mAH: Won't fit
Kodak NiMH 2500 mAH: Won't fit
Duracell NiMH 2650 mAH: Won't fit
Targus NiMH 2500 mAH: Won't fit


Energizer AA Lithium: Will fit
Panasonic NiMH 1600 mAH: Will fit

BOTTOM LINE: Be sure to test-fit 4 of your intended AA cells in your intended flashlight before ordering these adapters.


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## Skibane (Aug 30, 2008)

Black Rose said:


> There are some AA -> D adapters available that let you configure 1 - 4 AA cells. I was going to order some, but the shipping cost was insane for me
> 
> EDIT: Here they are: http://www.aventrade.com/baad.html



Slight thread hijack, but most brands* of NiMH AA cells will not fit 4 astride inside a D-size [email protected] light, even without an adapter present - The inside diameter of the flashlight body is simply too small to accommodate 4 of them sitting next to each other. You might be able to omit one AA cell in Aventrade's 4-cell adapter (i.e., just use 3 cells), but then that leaves some space on one side of the adapter for it to shift off-center (and possibly lose electrical contact).

*A few random brands of AA cells I checked:
Kodak NiMH 2100 mAH Pre-Charged: Won't fit
Lacrosse NiMH 2400 mAH: Won't fit
Sanyo NiMH 2500 mAH: Won't fit
NEXcell NiMH 2100 mAH: Won't fit
Digital NiMH 2200 mAH: Won't fit
Kodak NiMH 2500 mAH: Won't fit
Duracell NiMH 2650 mAH: Won't fit
Targus NiMH 2500 mAH: Won't fit


Energizer AA Lithium: Will fit
Panasonic NiMH 1600 mAH: Will fit

BOTTOM LINE: Be sure to test-fit 4 of your intended AA cells in your intended flashlight before ordering these adapters.


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## Bones (Sep 1, 2008)

Skibane said:


> Slight thread hijack, but most brands* of NiMH AA cells will not fit 4 astride inside a D-size [email protected] light, even without an adapter present - The inside diameter of the flashlight body is simply too small to accommodate 4 of them sitting next to each other.
> ...



It's too bad they couldn't have been aware of the eventual trend to substitute AA cells in adapters when they determined the dimensions of the D cell. Had just a few millimetres been added to it diameter, 4 AA cells would fit, even with adapters.

As well, presuming the Eneloop D cell is comprised of Eneloop AA cells in an adapter, it could also have been made with 4 cells instead of 3. That would have increased its minimum capacity from 5700 to 7600mAh (4 x 1900) and its typical capacity from 6000 to 8000mAh (4 x 2000).

Oh well...


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## Burgess (Sep 1, 2008)

How did i happen to *miss* this thread ? ? ?


Oh well, i've found it now.




_


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## Eugene (Sep 2, 2008)

How close is the fit for 4 AA's to d. Is it close enough that unwrapping the cells will allow them to fit, the outer shrink wrap on some can be quite thick. I would think that if a company were to make d cells out of AA's they would place the AA's in the adapter pripr to applying the labels.


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## eluminator (Sep 2, 2008)

Bones said:


> It's too bad they couldn't have been aware of the eventual trend to substitute AA cells in adapters when they determined the dimensions of the D cell.


You assume D cells were invented after AA cells were invented. I'm guessing A B C and D batteries came first, then AA and AAA came later.


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## Eugene (Sep 2, 2008)

I beleive eluminator is right AA came later, but the idea is still valid, why didn't they make aa's diameter small enough to fit 4 in a d size.


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## eluminator (Sep 4, 2008)

I will settle for 3. Anyone make a good adapter that will connect 3 AA cells in parallel and give it a form factor of a D cell?

Well maybe I should wait and see how much the eneloop D cells will cost.


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## Bones (Sep 4, 2008)

eluminator said:


> I will settle for 3. Anyone make a good adapter that will connect 3 AA cells in parallel and give it a form factor of a D cell?
> 
> Well maybe I should wait and see how much the eneloop D cells will cost.



I've decided to wait and see what the upsized Eneloop will cost as well.

If it's even close to the cost of the AA cells and a decent quality adapter, I'll definitely go with the Eneloop.

There can be little doubt that it will be both rugged and efficient, and it's protected against careless handling.


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## AzN1337c0d3r (Sep 5, 2008)

The new D-sized Maglites will fit 4 AA Eneloops last time I checked.


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## LED_Thrift (Sep 5, 2008)

_Maybe the capacities seem so low beacause Sanyo is measuring "out the front" mAh instead of measuring the more common "emitter" or "internal" mAh_


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## metlarules (Sep 5, 2008)




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## Bones (Sep 5, 2008)

LED_Thrift said:


> Maybe the capacities seem so low beacause Sanyo is measuring "out the front" mAh instead of measuring the more common "emitter" or "internal" mAh



Sanyo does appear to be raising the bar insofar as realistic capacity claims are concerned.

Rather than touting the 'Typical' capacity that has been the practice until now, they seem to be claiming the 'Minimum' capacity which most manufacturers only put in the fine print.

There's additional information in this regard earlier in thread:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com ... post2591128


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## copierguy_mobile (Oct 18, 2008)

Sorry to revive an old thread but I've got an Eneloop question for CPF's battery/electronics gurus:

I've currently got a mag 2D with a Malkoff 4-5-6 D upgrade in it. I power it with 6 AA Eneloops in a Fivemega 6AA to 2D adapter.

Would I see any benefit from switching over to a mag 6D, loading it with 6 Eneloop D's?

If I understand correctly, the voltage should be about the same (about 7.2 volts) but the capacity should be 34200mah vs the 12000mah I get now from the AA's. Does this translate into more lumens or longer run time?

Size is not an issue for this light. It's my "why are the dogs barking at 2AM" light, so most importantly it needs to have the long shelf life that Eneloop's offer and enough output over a long enough period of time to search a house and 3 acres if need be.

any input would be appreciated.

-Greg


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## PhantomPhoton (Oct 19, 2008)

You'll get much longer runtime. mAh is a crude measurement of capacity in batteries. For an LED light batteries usually play very little part in brightness, rather it it the driver that determines how much current the LED receives and therefore how bright the light will be.
In this case there would be very very little difference in brightness between a 6AA adapter setup and a 6D setup in an incandescant bulb as well. Still the same voltage. The only thing that changes much is how much energy is stored.


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## FredM (Oct 19, 2008)

I will buy the charger once it is available from sources I am familar with.


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## LukeA (Oct 19, 2008)

copierguy_mobile said:


> Sorry to revive an old thread but I've got an Eneloop question for CPF's battery/electronics gurus:
> 
> I've currently got a mag 2D with a Malkoff 4-5-6 D upgrade in it. I power it with 6 AA Eneloops in a Fivemega 6AA to 2D adapter.
> 
> ...



6AA Eneloops net you 2000mAh in that Mag. The Eneloop D-cells will give you 5700mAh. There are other LSD D-cells that can do 12000mAh.

You can only multiply by voltage when in series, and only multiply by capacity in parallel.


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## LukeA (Oct 19, 2008)

LED_Thrift said:


> _Maybe the capacities seem so low beacause Sanyo is measuring "out the front" mAh instead of measuring the more common "emitter" or "internal" mAh_



2000mAh from an AA eneloop gives 260mAh/cc

12000mAh from a D-cell LSD gives 230mAh/cc

5700mAh from an Eneloop D-cell gives 109mAh/cc

I don't call energy density on par with NiCd exactly revolutionary.


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## copierguy_mobile (Oct 19, 2008)

LukeA said:


> 6AA Eneloops net you 2000mAh in that Mag. The Eneloop D-cells will give you 5700mAh. There are other LSD D-cells that can do 12000mAh.
> 
> You can only multiply by voltage when in series, and only multiply by capacity in parallel.


 
Gotcha!

Never was good with math :shakehead

So no increase in output but somewhat longer runtime with the D's.

Where might I find LSD D's with a 12000mah capacity? and are they the same voltage?

In true CPF style, you've got me thinking about buying a Malkoff triple for that 6D mag in my closet.

thanks for the info,

Greg


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## LukeA (Oct 19, 2008)

copierguy_mobile said:


> Gotcha!
> 
> Never was good with math :shakehead
> 
> ...


*Much* longer runtime, like 5-6x

Same voltage yep.

Whoops, the LSD D-cells come in up to 10000mAh; it's the standard cells that come in 12000mAh. Sorry. But that's rated capacity, and there might be variations in actual capacity, variations in the LSD cells' favor. At least that's what the linked page says.


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## copierguy_mobile (Oct 20, 2008)

LukeA said:


> *Much* longer runtime, like 5-6x
> 
> Same voltage yep.
> 
> Whoops, the LSD D-cells come in up to 10000mAh; it's the standard cells that come in 12000mAh. Sorry. But that's rated capacity, and there might be variations in actual capacity, variations in the LSD cells' favor. At least that's what the linked page says.


 
Cool,

thanks for the link.

-Greg


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## Burgess (Nov 15, 2008)

Bump --


Has anybody actually *seen *one of these yet ?


:candle:
_


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## Mr Happy (Nov 15, 2008)

Not unless they live in Japan or have imported some from there


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## vestureofblood (Nov 15, 2008)

Skibane said:


> Slight thread hijack, but most brands* of NiMH AA cells will not fit 4 astride inside a D-size [email protected] light, even without an adapter present - The inside diameter of the flashlight body is simply too small to accommodate 4 of them sitting next to each other. You might be able to omit one AA cell in Aventrade's 4-cell adapter (i.e., just use 3 cells), but then that leaves some space on one side of the adapter for it to shift off-center (and possibly lose electrical contact).
> 
> *A few random brands of AA cells I checked:
> Kodak NiMH 2100 mAH Pre-Charged: Won't fit
> ...


 
4 duracell precharged 2000mah will fit into an unboared m*g body, just barley, not even enough room to add shrink but they fit. I think this is also a good time to mention I have discharged these cells at 10+ amps and there performance was remarkable. I put 13 kodak 2500mah cells into a 100 Watt osram 623 mod and the light was dim even on fresh cells. With the duracells it gave a bright white light for a full cycle and at about 11 min dropped off.


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## Nubo (Nov 17, 2008)

Eugene said:


> I beleive eluminator is right AA came later, but the idea is still valid, why didn't they make aa's diameter small enough to fit 4 in a d size.



The idea of using multiple AAs in a D-cell adapter is likely particular to the relatively recent phenomenon of high-capacity AA NiMH cells. Which evolved due to market demand related to power demands of digital cameras.

With those tremendous AA cells an adapter can make a lot of sense. But not so much with the "9 lives" batteries of 50 years ago.


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