# Batteries with low self discharge "LSD"



## LRE (Jan 9, 2007)

I assume that most of you are interested of the new low self discharge "LSD"-cells. I have tried to make a list over the existing producers so everybody can keep their eyes opened for test results and good deals etc. Please post when you find new LSD cells. I will update the list with your posted info. 
*When your info is in the list please delete your post to keep the thread short.*

Here are the list so far: 

*Accupower: Acculoop*
*http://www.acculoop.com/*

*Amondotech: Titanium Power Enduro*
*http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?...OD&ProdID=1131*

*Ansmann: maxE*
*http://www.ansmann.de/cms/consumroot...able/maxe.html*

*EverFast: Ready to use*
*http://www.everfast.com.hk/*

*GP Batteries: Recyko*
*http://www.gprecyko.com/*

*Hähnel: Synergy Ready to GO*
*http://www.hahnel.ie/index.cfm?action=displaybatterygroup&mbid=233*

*Kodak: Pre-Charged*
*http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=1682/11758&pq-locale=en_US*

*NEXCell: EnergyON*
*http://www.nexcellglobal.com/*

*Panasonic: R2 Technology*
*http://www.panasonic.ca/English/batt...eplacement.asp*

*PowerBase: Instant Battery*
*http://www.powerbasehk.com/e/default_home.asp*

*Rayovac: Hybrid*
*http://www.rayovac.com/recharge/hybrid_technology.shtml*

*Samsung/Pleomax E-Lock 2100mAh....*
*http://www.pleomax.co.kr/*

*Sanyo: Eneloop*
*http://www.eneloop.info/*

*Uniross: Hybrio*
*http://www.hybriousa.com/*

*Vapextech: Instant*
*http://www.vapextech.com.hk/instant.html*

*Varta: Ready2use*
*http://www.en.varta-consumer.com/con...a-consumer.com*

*Yuasa, (Series name?)*

*Some background reading:*
*http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=8&gl=uk*
*http://www.gs-yuasa.com/jp/technic/v.../003_2_046.pdf*


Thanks guys!
Regards Lars


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## not2bright (Jan 9, 2007)

You might want to add Rayovac Hybrid to the list.

http://www.rayovac.com/recharge/hybrid_technology.shtml


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## fstuff (Jan 9, 2007)

not2bright said:


> You might want to add Rayovac Hybrid to the list.
> 
> http://www.rayovac.com/recharge/hybrid_technology.shtml


 
i heard there was a $5 coupon in this past Sunday's coupon section. so it would be $3.95 at walmart.

pity i never looked at the coupon section


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## LRE (Jan 9, 2007)

Sanyo Eneloop






Accupower Acculoop





Panasonic R2 Technology





Uniross Hybrio 




NEXcell energyON




Ansmann maxe 

 

Rayovac Hybrid





Varta Ready2Use


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## MorePower (Jan 9, 2007)

In Europe, Varta markets the same cells as the Rayovac Hybrids.

http://www.en.varta-consumer.com/1169_1162303325.html?&


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## not2bright (Jan 9, 2007)

fstuff said:


> i heard there was a $5 coupon in this past Sunday's coupon section. so it would be $3.95 at walmart.
> 
> pity i never looked at the coupon section



fstuff, I heard that these coupons were available on ebay. :-D


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## 65535 (Jan 9, 2007)

Lithium Ion-Lithium primaries. Both good choices.


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## Anders (Jan 9, 2007)

Hello Lars and Welcome to CPF:lolsign:

You have been a busy writer theese 2 days

Good job to start this thread.
Maybe we see each other in the swedish forum soon 


Anders/agh39


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## NiOOH (Jan 9, 2007)

Which Swedish forum grabbar?


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## Anders (Jan 9, 2007)

I sent you a PM NIOOH.

Anders


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## LRE (Jan 10, 2007)

I first thought this was batteries because that is what the text says...
Unfortunately it is adapters! Sorry! My fault! Come on Sanyo!






http://www.eneloop.info/fileadmin/templates/chargersTable.html


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## Anders (Jan 10, 2007)

Rechargeable Ni-MH Battery
HR-1UTG-2BP
Size: D
2 batteries per pack

Rechargeable Ni-MH Battery
HR-2UTG-2BP
Size: C
2 batteries per pack

Good work LRE, thanks.

Rechargeable Ni-MH Battery
HR-1UTG-2BP
Size: D
2 batteries per pack

Rechargeable Ni-MH Battery
HR-2UTG-2BP
Size: C
2 batteries per pack

Good work LRE, thanks.

Edit: In this link, it says adaptors, must be wrong in the first link.

Anders


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## wasBlinded (Jan 11, 2007)

I have 4 Eneloop 2000 mAh AA cells and 4 Ray-O-Vac Hybrid 2100 mAh cells that I exercised and capacity tested with the Maha C-9000. I'm going to let them sit a month and discharge test them. I'll then post the results. I'm sure Silverfox has a test going too, but I'm curious to find out how the Eneloops compare to the slightly higher capacity Hybrids in the self-discharge department.

FWIW, the Eneloops measured around 1960 mAh, while the Hybrids measured around 2050 mAh in the initial testing.


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## Bearcat (Jan 11, 2007)

not2bright said:


> fstuff, I heard that these coupons were available on ebay. :-D


 
Thanks for the heads up information. I just bought 10 $5.00 off coupons for a total of $.49 + $.79 S&H on EBay. I love saving money!!!


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## thekobk (Jan 11, 2007)

RadioShack Precharged  Rechargeable "AA" Batteries 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2486177



I wonder who makes thease?


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## lednut (Jan 11, 2007)

My question is-Is this the next best thing in nimh batteries? Are these going to replace the rechargeables I have now? Will standard nimh batteries be obsolete or do they and will they still have their place? I just bought four Eneloops at Fry's a couple of weeks ago and have relegated them to specific duties. Now I see this list and think they are not specialized batteries,but the next big thing for AA nimh users. I have a crapload of nimh AA's ranging from 1650 mah to 2500 mah and thought I was doing good until now! Do I need to replace them all or is low self discharge a compromise? Dang advances in technology!


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## Mike Iver (Jan 12, 2007)

I bought some of the coupons on ebay. Someone still has them up there. 20 coupons ($5.00 off) for $1.39 including shipping. Here is the item # 250072671147


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## LRE (Jan 13, 2007)

LSD vs NiMH(std.)/Alkaline

AA and AAA cost about the same on most markets.
A good price should be around €8-10/$10-12 for a 4-pack.

I will not buy any more batteries of the classic NiMH type. From now and on it's LSD. Thanks to a higher voltage an Eneloop AA with 2000mAh should equal to ~2500 mAh and then you get the low self discharge on top of that.
See www.eneloop.ca/eneloop_en_why.html#higher

Example: Take a Powerex 2700 mAh and compare with Eneloop 2000 mAh. P2700 is one of the best high capacity cells but it has a self discharge of ~3%/day (80mAh) Eneloop has due to higher voltage a performance equal to a ~2500 mAh (manufac. data) and just a few mAh/day in self discharge.

Given stated data and specs are fairly right we need to use our P2700 cell within the first ~4 days to get a higher output than E2000.
In other words you have to plan your battery consumption in order to get more capacity with you in the pocket with for example a P2700. Remember that most classic NiMH cells has much less capacity than P2700!

There are ~10 brands of LSD on the market today but unclear how many producers. Rayovac Hybrid and Varta Ready2Use are for example the same battery. Unfortunately there are no extensive tests comparing the LSD cells yet. 

My choice is Eneloop at the moment because they have great technical data and can be charged <1000 times. Sanyo is the biggest producer of rechargeable cells in the world and intend to replace all alkaline/std.NiMH with Eneloop. There are probably many "copy cats" (read stressed competitors) often Chinese that have to answer to Sanyo’s move. No one of the brands that claim 2100 mAh in capacity states which standard/norm they used when measuring the capacity. Some producers states only 500 cycles. Some of them states 2000 mAh as a shadow number which makes me believe that 2100 mAh is an extreme value that no or a few cells might reach in the best case. I believe they are a little behind in technology but that I can't prove!


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## Bearcat (Jan 13, 2007)

LRE, I agree with you, because I do not want a full time job charging batteries. However, I am going with the Rayovac Hybrids, because I can get them for $3.87 from Wal-mart with my $5.00 off coupons. I can not wait until someone does some independent testing, because manufacturers tend to use a little sales hype to get us to buy their brand.


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## Sub_Umbra (Jan 13, 2007)

LRE said:


> What should we think about this????
> Could be an adapter but it says battery...
> 
> 
> ...


WHOA!! Thanks for the link! I was just going to post asking if and when Eneloop Cs and Ds were coming out.

So now the questions are:

*Has anyone bought any yet?*
*If so, what do you think of them?*
*Where can I get some?*


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## Sub_Umbra (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks, Anders.

Bummer.


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## LittleBrownStain (Feb 28, 2007)

The link (above in the original list - first post) for Panasonic 'R2 Technology', has expired. (No longer valid). "Site Not Found".

Not so surprising, really. Panasonic makes the *worst* 'D'-cell adaptors I've ever seen. Thoroughly worthless junk. Rarely makes electrical contact with the AA cell within. Rarely meshes with outside contacts in various gear.

I hope Sanyo follows through (on their eneloop website) with their promise of making their own brand of 'C' and 'D' cell adaptors available 'soon', because a gentleman in here - from Japan - mentioned that he *has* some genuine Eneloop adaptors, and they are of top notch quality.

And THEN ........ (geeze)..... I just wish C and D eneloops (or any other LSD folks) would just start manufacturing low self discharge C and D cells *outright*, so that we could forget about the damned adaptors altogether!

With regular C and D size NiMH cells available all over the place, there's just *no excuse* for the delay of these sizes in low-discharge format!

--------------------
*EDIT* - Wow! I really ought to pay closer attention to what is being written in here! (Immediate posts above). [blushing red] 

Am going to be hounding the web for more info on these D size eneloops!
Gosh! It's enough to make one "Ene*Loopy*", eh?


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## LittleBrownStain (Feb 28, 2007)

wasBlinded said:


> I have 4 Eneloop 2000 mAh AA cells and 4 Ray-O-Vac Hybrid 2100 mAh cells that I exercised and capacity tested with the Maha C-9000. I'm going to let them sit a month and discharge test them. I'll then post the results. I'm sure Silverfox has a test going too, but I'm curious to find out how the Eneloops compare to the slightly higher capacity Hybrids in the self-discharge department.


 
The comparison is appreciated, wasBlinded. These two high-profile brands, in particular, seem to be causing the most interest - _which of those two brands _holds their charge the longest? 

On present info, I think eneloop (currently) wins. 

RayoVac Hybrid - after 6 months = 80% capacity; 70% after 1 year.
Sanyo Eneloop - after 6 months = 90%+ capacity; 80% after 1 year.

Of course, those numbers will be bounced around like a rubber ball in the upcoming year, as the *LSD Wars *begin! (about time too). 

(I think regular NiMH technology is in trouble) ;-)


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## AmondoTech (Feb 28, 2007)

Don't forget AmondoTech, Titanium Power Enduro, released about 10 months ago.

Regards,
Wayne
www.amondotech.com


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## PhotonAddict (Feb 28, 2007)

Wayne, is there any chance that a C or D size Enduro will be developed?


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## Stemlin (Feb 28, 2007)

Amondo claims 80% retention after one year for the Titaniums, according to this page:
http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1131
If true, this beats Rayovac and matches Eneloop but with a higher capacity (2100 vs. 2000). However, I'm skeptical since the Titanium cells have the same capacity as the Rayovac, have similar appearance (esp. at the terminals), and thus seem to be made by the same manufacturer. Anyone have more information about this?


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## AmondoTech (Feb 28, 2007)

C or D size Enduro will be developed?
>>> I have a short answer and long answer.

The short answer is "no". The long answer will take a while to put my thought together to post. Will do this when I have time.

The market ratio between AA and all C and cells combine is like 
99.99:0.01

Yes, it is that dramatic!

Regards,
Wayne
www.amondotech.com


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## jtr1962 (Feb 28, 2007)

AmondoTech said:


> C or D size Enduro will be developed?
> >>> I have a short answer and long answer.
> 
> The short answer is "no". The long answer will take a while to put my thought together to post. Will do this when I have time.


Any chance of 9V Enduros? I would think there would be a decent market here since 9V primaries are expensive and lots of things such as smoke alarms and multimeters still use 9V batteries.


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## PhotonAddict (Feb 28, 2007)

I figured market demand would be the reason... after all, the C & D cell NiMHs that are generally available from Energizer are essentially repackaged AAs.
I had to ask though 



AmondoTech said:


> ....
> The market ratio between AA and all C and cells combine is like
> 99.99:0.01
> ...
> www.amondotech.com


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## Sub_Umbra (Feb 28, 2007)

I'm another who would jump right into NiMH LSD Cs and Ds. I use a lot of C and D NiCads now and I could go on using them for quite a while but they have been marked for oblivion by the *Green Nazis* in spite of the fact that there is no alternative available that does what NiCad Cs and Ds can do. They still work better than NiMH cells in radios and other non-light electronic applications and they have _increased efficacy_ in portable lighting now that the Crees and Seouls are on the scene.

I've already switched over to Eneloop AAs and AAAs and have bought my last NiCad *in those sizes.* I truly wish *someone* would market LSD NiMH cells in C and D sizes to fill my needs but I'll bet I'll be buying another bunch of NiCad Cs and Ds from Amondo. Oh well, they'll last forever.


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## LittleBrownStain (Mar 1, 2007)

Sub_Umbra said:


> I'm another who would jump right into NiMH LSD Cs and Ds. I use a lot of C and D NiCads now...
> 
> I've already switched over to Eneloop AAs and AAAs and have bought my last NiCad *in those sizes.* I truly wish *someone* would market LSD NiMH cells in C and D sizes to fill my needs but I'll bet I'll be buying another bunch of NiCad Cs and Ds from Amondo. Oh well, they'll last forever.



Don't let the nay-sayers try to sway you, Sub_Umbra - rechargeable, LSD NiMH C and D cells are *w-a-a-a-a-a-y overdue, *most _definately needed, _and infinately used in more equipment than you can shake a 4D-Maglite at.

Popping an AA cell into a crummy, ****-poorly manufactured D adaptor (like Panasonic's) is only a temporary-but-necessary interim step, needed until the manufacturers get off their duff and start smelling the coffee.

As for C adaptors - well, an AA-cell is ever-so-slightly longer (taller) than a C cell, so if you have a device that takes, say, 4 c cells in-line, they may or may not physically fit into your device anyway. Hence the need for _proper _rechargeable C cells.

Having to mail-order (and wait) for these crummy adaptors to arrive is a crap-shoot at best - you never know how well they are made unless you are intimately familiar with that particular brand/vendor. And what scantily-few adaptor-makers there are, tell you precious little (anything?) about what they offer.

This whole schmuzzy scenario could be easily avoided if they'd just sell the damned cells - hi-capacity; low-capacity - I don't care. (Long shelf life is a must, though).

Like O.J. Simpson's lawyer once said....

_"If the adaptor don't fit, it ain't worth s---." :laughing:

_And sooooo - I guess we'll just have to wait for sanyo to come out with an eneloop D cell, or at least make generally-available the adaptors, which according to that gent from Japan (in here somwhere) assures me they DO manufacture, and that they are of very high quality. Which in itself begs the question: Why doesn't Sanyo also sell it's adaptors wherever eneloops are available?


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## macdude22 (Mar 1, 2007)

I also have a need for LSD C and D cells. I have a variety of items, lights, lanterns, fans, radio, mattress inflator, and other items that I use C and D cells for. Right now I use regular NIMHs in them but most of these things are not used on a regular basis you know. I'd love to toss in some LSD cells in them. I've not had much good luck with adapters so I shunned away from them. C and D cells can get expensive and they are used in a lot of things(though obviously not as much as AA n AAAs) but it seems to me there is enough market demand for somebody to release some LSD larger size batteries.


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## AmondoTech (Mar 2, 2007)

I wish I can come in and announce AmondoTech will release LSD size C and D batteries. 

I think if military put in an order, then we can somehow squeeze some from over-production. Before then, we will need to wait.

Regards,
Wayne

www.amondotech.com


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## LittleBrownStain (Mar 5, 2007)

AmondoTech said:


> I wish I can come in and announce AmondoTech will release LSD size C and D batteries.
> 
> I think if military put in an order, then we can somehow squeeze some from over-production. Before then, we will need to wait.



Hi Wayne!

Then, am I to assume that AmondoTech currently does (or can) manufacture LSD C's and D's ?

A military order to you would be terrific! and a boon for _everyone else _in the general consumer world too, as it would help spur the availability of these needed cell sizes. As large as the military is, there are still a whack of us reg'lar consumers out there willing to buy.

I will be keeping an eye out on AmondoTech for further news. (Thank you).


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## LittleBrownStain (Mar 5, 2007)

Oops-A-Daisy!

Sorry, I thought AmondoTech was an independant manufacturer of cells, and perhaps not just a vendor.



From Website said:


> Brand NEW High Capacity ( *1800mAh* ).
> Can be used as an exact replacement for AA alkaline batteries in all equipment .




(Noop), I don't think so.

I just bought a MagLight LED and I am firmly told that I must never try to power it using rechargeable Nickle Metal Hydride Batteries, LSD or otherwise. This comes not only from the MagLite people themselves, but from independant reviewers.

(I wish it wasn't true though, because I want to use eneloops with it, even if I DO have to use those crummy AA-To-D adaptors). [sigh....]


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## macdude22 (Mar 6, 2007)

I use NiMH in a 3D MagLED to no ill effect. Now I don't claim to be an expert on the matter but mine works just dandy on the voltage provided by NiMH. It's my understanding that most things will work fine(since they are designed for the sagging voltage of typical alkaline batteries) unless they have some fancyfanglin regulation that requires a very specific voltage/battery type.


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## eebowler (Mar 6, 2007)

LRE, you need to update your first post with the Titanium Power Enduro 2100mAh cells.

LittleBrownStain: All the posts I remember reading on the topic and from my own experience, you CAN substitute alkaline cells by rechargeables. One of the reasons they MAY say not to do it is because rechargeable cells have the ability to deliver much higher current than alkaline cells and in some flashlights, the manufacturer depends on this limitation of AA or AAA alkaline cells to keep the LED from frying. It is assumed that rechargeable cells will deliver too much current to the LED and damage it. In my experience in this forum however, I've yet to see a 3AAA or AA cell light fry an LED when rechargeables are used.


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## LittleBrownStain (Mar 7, 2007)

To macdude22 and eebowler:

THANK YOU *so much *for that info! 

I have been asking that question all over CPF in one (veiled) form or another (grins) - yours is the *first* good news I have heard regarding this! I didn't wanna 'smoke' the LED module, which, here in Canada, clocks-in at $27.95 CAD.

There's a Mag2D sitting on my desk right now, next to the computer monitor, with two eneloop AA's in it, fitted into two (crummy) Panasonic AA-To-D adaptors, powering the (even more crummy) incandescent bulb, which has an unfortunate propensity to turn yellower than an over-ripe Chiquitta banana!

I'm gonna switch-in the LED module right now, and I'll be back in a sec.


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## LittleBrownStain (Mar 7, 2007)

*B-I-N-G-O !!!!!!!!   

*Works like a CHARM, Gentlemen!! Wheee ! (I just made my very first "mini-mod" here at CPF!)

(Ain't it amazing how the simplest things seem to be the most fun) ???

I just turned the lights out and the mag on. *Bright white light*, and nice, tight throw spot resulted!

I know what you mean, eebowler, about rechargeable batteries having a higher-than-alkaline ability to provide instantaneous current, (obvious to anyone who has burned themselves by carrying a few NiMHs in their pants pocket with their car keys and a bunch of change), BUT, I am only using two AA (eneloop) cells rather than 2 large D size rechargeables, with the AA's (presumably) lesser current outflows. I really couldn't see any _real _harm in using them, even for longer periods of time, and even though the MAG LED module likes to get hot-hot-hot after a while. The stoopid MAG has no heat-sinking, but at least the led module comes with a current-reducing circuit.

Thanks SO MUCH again, guys. You've just saved me $40+shipping for an *EverLED *module! I will be *smiling* for the rest of this evening !!!

-- Mike --


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## AdamThirnis (Apr 28, 2007)

GP have entered the fray with their Recyko range

http://www.gprecyko.com/en/index.html


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## altis (Jul 11, 2007)

Here's an updated list with some corrected links:

Accupower: Acculoop
http://www.acculoop.com/

Amondotech: Titanium Power Enduro
http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1131

Ansmann: maxE
http://www.ansmann.de/cms/consumroot/batteries/rechargeable/maxe.html

GP Batteries: Recyko
http://www.gprecyko.com/

NEXCell: EnergyON
http://www.nexcellglobal.com/

Panasonic: R2 Technology
http://www.panasonic.ca/English/batteries/batteries_chargers/chargers/replacement.asp

Rayovac: Hybrid
http://www.rayovac.com/recharge/hybrid_technology.shtml

Sanyo: Eneloop
http://www.eneloop.info/

Uniross: Hybrio
http://www.hybriousa.com/

Vapextech: Instant
http://www.vapextech.com.hk/instant.html

Varta: Ready2use
http://www.en.varta-consumer.com/co...03325.html&&&domain=www.en.varta-consumer.com

Some background reading:
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cach...-self-discharge+nimh&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=uk
http://www.gs-yuasa.com/jp/technic/vol3_2/pdf/003_2_046.pdf


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## MrAl (Jul 11, 2007)

Hi there,

Im still waiting for Energizer to come out with some type of lsd cell, but
it looks like i got a long wait.


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## barkingmad (Jul 11, 2007)

MrAl said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Im still waiting for Energizer to come out with some type of lsd cell, but
> it looks like i got a long wait.


 
Why wait - when Sanyo and others have them now?


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## Gazoo (Jul 11, 2007)

barkingmad said:


> Why wait - when Sanyo and others have them now?



I fully agree. I will never buy another energizer again of any kind. I despise the fact that their alkaline batteries have leaked in my remotes and a few other devices. Sorry for the rant!

I love my Sanyo eneloop AA and AAA batteries, and they are replacing my aging NIMH's and alkaline batteries. 

And if they ever to make a LSD C and D battery, I do have a few things I could use them in too.


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## MrAl (Jul 11, 2007)

barkingmad said:


> Why wait - when Sanyo and others have them now?



Hi,

I am not waiting to buy a set, i am waiting to see them come out with
a set so i can hear how good or bad they work.

I already have a set of Kodak LSD clones.


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## tarponbill (Jul 11, 2007)

I just bought a bunch of Hybrids, on sale at Walmart, they appear to live up to the claim of 2000 mAh in my crude testing. The $5 off is on the next buy of 4AA cells, so the cost is not quite as good, but still the lowest around these parts. I think you get 2 $5 off coupon buys, at least I did, and they did send back the 2x $5 already. I put a set of four AA Hybrids aside after a discharge/charge cycle to sit for three months and see how that goes.

The first set of 4 AAA I put in the wifes digital camera lasted a surprising short period of time, but after a re-charge, they were up to spec.

I have 4-4D Maglites that are starting to look unloved with all the advances in LEDs and batteries. Going to look around for AA-D cell adaptors and test that out.

Rechargeable LSD AA-AAA is sure looking like the future for most common usage from where I am.


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## Anders (Aug 11, 2007)

Another manufacturer, Powerbase?
*With head office in Hong Kong,*

http://www.powerbasehk.com/e/default_home.asp




Shot with Canon PowerShot A520 at 2007-08-11

Found in sweden now, 4 AA cells =*14,35 US-dollars

Never heard the name *Powerbase.







Anders


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## SilverFox (Aug 11, 2007)

Hello Anders,

Interesting, it looks like a "knock off" of this one...

Tom


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## Anders (Aug 11, 2007)

Hello Tom.

Hehe, same name of the cell and same city, *Shenzhen HK.


*Very strange:naughty:




Anders


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## cam94z28 (Aug 15, 2007)

Found another one to add to the list....

Samsung/Pleomax E-Lock 2100mAh....

http://www.pleomax.co.kr/

Click on batteries/rechargeable (stupid flash site so no direct link), then at the bottom click the icon with the grey/white package....


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## PocketBeam (Aug 16, 2007)

This is a cool thread, but would it be possible to post estimated prices? Also any other information that could be used for comparison, like capacity. And do they all hold their charge for about the same time, or are their major differences?


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## tarpon6 (Aug 16, 2007)

I'm gun shy to use any LSD cells except the Eneloops right now. What other brands have tested to be as good or better than the Eneloops as far as their discharge rate and meeting their stated capacity?


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## itguy07 (Aug 16, 2007)

The Ray-O-Vac Hybrids are said to be as good if not better than the Eneloops.


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## Curious_character (Aug 17, 2007)

I got some Sony Cycle Energy cells, in AA and AAA, at Fry's which seem to be LSD cells. The capacity is the same as Eneloops, and they behave very similarly.

c_c


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## AdamThirnis (Aug 19, 2007)

Everfast product:

http://www.everfast.com.hk/catalog/02-rechargeable-batteries-ready-to-use-batteries-c-22_43.html


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## Power Me Up (Aug 19, 2007)

AdamThirnis said:


> Everfast product:
> 
> http://www.everfast.com.hk/catalog/02-rechargeable-batteries-ready-to-use-batteries-c-22_43.html


Interesting - they are claiming a higher capacity for these LSD cells than I've seen from anyone else - 2300 mAh for the AA cells and 900 mAh for the AAA cells.

What's the bet that they're simply overstated though??? :scowl:


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## ltiu (Aug 19, 2007)

Curious_character said:


> I got some Sony Cycle Energy cells, in AA and AAA, at Fry's which seem to be LSD cells. The capacity is the same as Eneloops, and they behave very similarly.
> 
> c_c



What's the rated capacity of your Sony Cycle Energy?


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## Curious_character (Aug 19, 2007)

ltiu said:


> What's the rated capacity of your Sony Cycle Energy?


2000 mAh for AA, 800 mAh for AAA, same as Eneloops.

c_c


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## Curious_character (Aug 19, 2007)

Power Me Up said:


> Interesting - they are claiming a higher capacity for these LSD cells than I've seen from anyone else - 2300 mAh for the AA cells and 900 mAh for the AAA cells.
> 
> What's the bet that they're simply overstated though??? :scowl:


I'll give you 100 to 1.

They're ideally suited for use in those $10, 200 lumen, 10 watt Chinese flashlights.

c_c


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## Anders (Aug 20, 2007)

Everfast also sell: AA *2800 *Rechargeable battery AA LR6 , so, of course they are overstated.






Anders


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## Lightingguy321 (Aug 21, 2007)

What are the mAh capacities on the Rayovac Hybrid AAs?


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## TranquillityBase (Aug 24, 2007)

Lightingguy321 said:


> What are the mAh capacities on the Rayovac Hybrid AAs?


I just noticed the Rayovac Hybrid 1AA four pack, at my local Ace Hardware, they were $12.99, and the capacity was listed as 2100 mAh.


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## johnny13oi (Aug 24, 2007)

The Hybrid's are under $10 here at local Walmarts for a regular 4-pack. The capacity for the AA is 2100mah and the AAA are 800mah.


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## Curious_character (Aug 24, 2007)

johnny13oi said:


> The Hybrid's are under $10 here at local Walmarts for a regular 4-pack. The capacity for the AA is 2100mah and the AAA are 800mah.


Is the capacity of the AA cells actually measurably greater than Eneloops, or are the Ray-O-Vac marketeers just more creative than Sanyo's?

c_c


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## oldvultureface (Aug 24, 2007)

Curious_character said:


> Is the capacity of the AA cells actually measurably greater than Eneloops, or are the Ray-O-Vac marketeers just more creative than Sanyo's?
> 
> c_c


Not really.
eneloops analyzed with C9000:
1923, 1920, 1953, 1950
Hybrids:
1970, 1980,1980, 1987
For comparison, Energizer 2200 mAh bundled with their 15 minute charger:
2241, 2249, 2245, 2243. Tight shot group.


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## TranquillityBase (Aug 24, 2007)

Great info on the batteries OVF...

I just got a C9000, and it's excellent...still learning how to use it...seems to have rescued my Energizer 2500's that have been idle for the past 18 months.


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## oldvultureface (Aug 24, 2007)

TranquillityBase said:


> I just got a C9000, and it's excellent...


Also makes a great night light.


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## johnny13oi (Aug 25, 2007)

oldvultureface said:


> Not really.
> eneloops analyzed with C9000:
> 1923, 1920, 1953, 1950
> Hybrids:
> ...



How many cycles were on the Hybrids? I've read that the hybrids get a little better after a few cycles and that the Hybrids are tested to be about 100mah higher than Eneloops.


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## oldvultureface (Aug 25, 2007)

johnny13oi said:


> How many cycles were on the Hybrids? I've read that the hybrids get a little better after a few cycles and that the Hybrids are tested to be about 100mah higher than Eneloops.


9.


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## wasBlinded (Aug 26, 2007)

My C9000 gave my Hybrids an average 2050 mAh and my Eneloops 1950 mAh.

Obviously, YMMV.


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## fastenuff!! (Aug 26, 2007)

My brand new Titanium Enduros tested on my Maha c9000 after refresh cycle tested at well OVER 2100 mah, more like 2400 so I am assuming the 2100mah is after losing some charge due to storage. Any way I am very happy with them, just wish they were cheaper! Also the only place I was able to find them was at Amondo Tech. While they are a great co. a little competition might help the consumer. I have heard they are just re-labled Rayovac hybrids, any confirmation Wayne?


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## AdamThirnis (Sep 18, 2007)

Sony are now selling AA LSD batteries in their CycleEnergy range (NH-AA-B4K). Rated at 2000mAh these are stamped Made in Japan so they are probably rebadged Eneloops.


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## UnknownVT (Sep 20, 2007)

Might want to add the Kodak Pre-Charged AA and AAA to the list -

on Kodak USA web site -

Kodak Pre-Charged







They sell @$7.88 4pk from WalMart 

Couple of threads here on the Kodak Pre-Charged -

new Kodac "Pre Charged" NiMH batteries?

Kodak Pre-Charged NiMH 

Chevrofreak tested the Kodak Pre-Charged, and seems to think well of them -
ref: Post #*15* in this thread - My Eneloops charge to and hold a higher voltage than other LSD's 
and -
Posts #*13* and #*14* in new Kodac "Pre Charged" NiMH batteries?


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## Power Me Up (Sep 23, 2007)

OK, here's another - Hahnel Synergy:
http://www.hahnel.ie/index.cfm?action=displaybatterygroup&mbid=233


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## dtsoll (Sep 23, 2007)

I wonder why the Hahnels and some others are only rechargeable up to 500 times and the Eneloops and others are up to 1000. I realize these are both optimistic marketing ploys but still, seems kind of like a no brainer since the price for all of them are basically the same. Wouldn't you go with a cell you can supposedly charge 1000 times over a cell only giving you around 500? Just kinda wondered about this. Doug


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## LRE (Sep 23, 2007)

I have now updated the list of "LSD-cells" in the first post in this thread.
I am sorry for the delay! Still using the Eneloops I bougt from CPC in the UK and I could not have been more saticfied. /LRE


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## grail (Oct 2, 2007)

Just want to inform you that The PowerBase Instant Battery is being sold at ACE hardware stores and SM Workshops (Philippines) for 995.00 PHP (that's roughly 22.00 USD).

You get:
- 4 x AA 2100 mAh
- 4 x AA 800 mAh
- Standard Overnight Charger

In my opinion this one's a steal, and some shops sell the Sanyo Eneloop at insane prices (132.00 USD for a charger and 2 x AA's)


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## UnknownVT (Oct 13, 2007)

SilverFox/Tom in another thread mentioned - 

Radio Shack Pre-Charged.





web page claims -

_"- Last about 500 charging cycles, reducing the number of batteries dscarded into the environment _
_- 1.2V/2000mAh capacity _
_- Hold approximately 80% of their charge for a full year"_

Priced at $19.99 for pack of 4
that sounds really expensive - 
more than double for most other LSD AA prices.


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## Yenster (Oct 13, 2007)

LRE said:


> LSD vs NiMH(std.)/Alkaline
> Thanks to a higher voltage an Eneloop AA with 2000mAh should equal to ~2500 mAh and then you get the low self discharge on top of that.
> See www.eneloop.ca/eneloop_en_why.html#higher
> 
> Example: Take a Powerex 2700 mAh and compare with Eneloop 2000 mAh. P2700 is one of the best high capacity cells but it has a self discharge of ~3%/day (80mAh) Eneloop has due to higher voltage a performance equal to a ~2500 mAh (manufac. data) and just a few mAh/day in self discharge.


 
I question this claim by Sanyo regarding the higher voltage of the Eneloops. I can't find any voltage specs higher than 1.2V, and for Sanyo's claim to be true, these Eneloops must be 1.5V...which I believe is impossible for NiMH batteries.

Anyone have more thoughts on this claim by Sanyo?


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## Curious_character (Oct 14, 2007)

Yenster said:


> I question this claim by Sanyo regarding the higher voltage of the Eneloops. I can't find any voltage specs higher than 1.2V, and for Sanyo's claim to be true, these Eneloops must be 1.5V...which I believe is impossible for NiMH batteries.
> 
> Anyone have more thoughts on this claim by Sanyo?


"1.2" and "1.5" volts aren't specs, but nominal voltages. The actual voltage changes with load and as the battery discharges. Here are graphs of an Eneloop and two Sanyo 2300 mAh cells, one old and one new. As you can see, the Eneloop voltage is higher than the old 2300 and lower than the new one, for most of the discharge period. This is of course a test of only three cells, so can't be used to draw any general conclusions about Eneloop voltage -- except that not all Eneloop cells have higher voltage than all other NiMH cells.

Anyone who has a concept of a battery as a constant voltage source should read this.

c_c


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## Yenster (Oct 14, 2007)

Curious_character said:


> "1.2" and "1.5" volts aren't specs, but nominal voltages. The actual voltage changes with load and as the battery discharges. Here are graphs of an Eneloop and two Sanyo 2300 mAh cells, one old and one new. As you can see, the Eneloop voltage is higher than the old 2300 and lower than the new one, for most of the discharge period. This is of course a test of only three cells, so can't be used to draw any general conclusions about Eneloop voltage -- except that not all Eneloop cells have higher voltage than all other NiMH cells.
> 
> Anyone who has a concept of a battery as a constant voltage source should read this.
> 
> c_c


 
Well actually, 1.2 and 1.5 are specs...they're the specified nominal voltages. It doesn't seem you understood the question (and it has nothing to do with the concept of a battery as a constant voltage source). 

I'm questioning Sanyo's claim that their 2000mAh Eneloops are as powerful as 2500mAh NiMh batteries. How could that be true unless the Eneloops had a nominal voltage of 1.5V...and that can't be true (as seen in the graphs that you've provided). So I was just wondering if anyone has seen evidence to back-up Sanyo's claim.


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## Power Me Up (Oct 14, 2007)

Yenster said:


> I'm questioning Sanyo's claim that their 2000mAh Eneloops are as powerful as 2500mAh NiMh batteries. How could that be true unless the Eneloops had a nominal voltage of 1.5V...and that can't be true (as seen in the graphs that you've provided). So I was just wondering if anyone has seen evidence to back-up Sanyo's claim.


I can't say with certainty, but maybe they're basing the claim on the basis that a lot of cells that are rated at 2500 mAh are overrated and if the 2500 mAh cell has lower voltage under load, the device may shut down before it is fully discharged.

Combined with a higher voltage during discharge, it's quite possible that a 2000 mAh rated Eneloop could last longer than a lot of 2500 mAh rated cell in some devices.

If the device in use will discharge the cells to a sufficiently low voltage or the 2500 mAh cell is of decent quality, it's still likely that the 2500 mAh cell will last longer than the Eneloop. (Assuming that self discharge hasn't played a part)


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## LEDninja (Oct 14, 2007)

Pure Energy NiMH Pre Charged
C$12 at WallMart Canada for AAA4
RayOvac Hybrids are C$14

The Source by Circuit City still wants C$30 for a 4 pack of Eneloops


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## UnknownVT (Oct 15, 2007)

Yenster said:


> I question this claim by Sanyo regarding the higher voltage of the Eneloops. I can't find any voltage specs higher than 1.2V, and for Sanyo's claim to be true, these Eneloops must be 1.5V...which I believe is impossible for NiMH batteries.


 
Interesting thoughts about LSD battery voltage level maintenance.

In Post #*49* (link) over at the PentaxForums for use of LSD (Uniross Hybrio) and NiMH (Energizer 2500mAh) in a Pentax K100D - a dSLR that's pretty sensitive to batteries - it's in a thread called -K100D - "Low-Battery" Problem

QUOTED here:
"_I'll just add a few facts as measured with my particular K100D........_

_Battery meter shows full charge at > 1.25v per cell, i.e. >5.00v_
_Battery meter shows half charge at 1.25v per cell, i.e. 5.00v_
_Battery meter shows empty and camera shuts down at 1.19v per cell, i.e. 4.76v_

_I'm an electronics engineer and took great care in taking these readings by the way, it's very easy to get it wrong. Other K100Ds could be a bit different of course, and temperature may be a factor possibly, I'm not going to repeat these measurements to find out._

_As far as batteries are concerned, Uniross Hybrios are SO EASY to live with, I get 5-600 shots over just about any period of time I'm ever likely to leave them in the camera and they outlasted a friend's Canon 5D Li-On batteries at the same airshow and I took more pictures, so where's the problem? I've about 9 months experience with these batteries, they're great._

_Energizer 2500mAh (Sanyo manufactured) NiMh batteries last for 900 shots if used the same day as charging, but may only get 2-300 after a week or two. Now, I've measured the remaining capacity of Energizers after a 2 week rest, and it's hardly dropped at all, what's happened is that the voltage has depressed to a level where the K100D cutoff voltage is approached, so only a couple of hundred shots max is likely whereas there's actually plenty of charge in them for 2 or 3 times that. So, when the K100D says they're flat there's actually 75% of the charge remaining. Hybrios' voltage doesn't depress so much after a rest period so still can deliver most of their charge into a K100D_."

Another CPF thread with the same theme -

My Eneloops charge to and hold a higher voltage than other LSD's


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## Yenster (Oct 15, 2007)

UnknownVT said:


> Interesting thoughts about LSD battery voltage level maintenance.
> 
> In Post #*49* (link) over at the PentaxForums for use of LSD (Uniross Hybrio) and NiMH (Energizer 2500mAh) in a Pentax K100D - a dSLR that's pretty sensitive to batteries - it's in a thread called -K100D - "Low-Battery" Problem
> 
> ...


 
My interpretation of all this...different brands of NiMh batteries, whether LSD or not, will exhibit slightly different characteristics. One may be better suited than another depending on the application. I'm sure each will claim better performance over another to their advantage. So YMMV, depending on your combination of needs regarding short term capacity, long shelf life, minimum voltage cut-off, high-drain circuits, total slow-drain power, or simply price points.

I'll probably just stick to my Rayovac Hybrids (though not claiming they're better than all others). Thanks.


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## Power Me Up (Oct 24, 2007)

Here's another - Enekeep:
http://www.enekeep.com

I wonder how they came up with that name?


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## -QT- (Oct 24, 2007)

Power Me Up said:


> Here's another - Enekeep:
> http://www.enekeep.com
> 
> I wonder how they came up with that name?



What's even worse is the blatant page title:
< title >ENEKEEP-eneloop< /title >


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## Mitch470 (Oct 24, 2007)

*Stable Voltage for Eneloops*



Yenster said:


> I question this claim by Sanyo regarding the higher voltage of the Eneloops. I can't find any voltage specs higher than 1.2V, and for Sanyo's claim to be true, these Eneloops must be 1.5V...which I believe is impossible for NiMH batteries.
> 
> Anyone have more thoughts on this claim by Sanyo?


 
I had charged 16 AA Eneloops and 8 AAA Eneloops last week. I have 8 of each in storage and am using 8 AA's in instruments. Today the stable median voltage for the stored groups are: AA - 1.353V and AAA - 1.364V. I tested with a Radio Shack Micronta Digital Multimeter. I charged them last week with a LaCrosse BC-900 using Test Mode (charge/discharge/charge) using 500 mA Charge/250 mA Discharge for the AA's and 200 mA Charge and 100 mA Discharge for the AAA's.


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## Mitch470 (Oct 24, 2007)

*Eneloop prices*



LEDninja said:


> Pure Energy NiMH Pre Charged
> C$12 at WallMart Canada for AAA4
> RayOvac Hybrids are C$14
> 
> The Source by Circuit City still wants C$30 for a 4 pack of Eneloops


 
Amazon.com is selling an 8 pack of AA Eneloops today (Oct 24, 2007) for $ 19.99 new and $ 14.55 used.


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## Greggy_D (Oct 24, 2007)

Even better, at Amazon is the 4 pack of AA for $9.39. Get two of these packs for a total price of $18.78 ($1.21 cheaper than buying the 8 pack).


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 25, 2007)

LittleBrownStain said:


> Oops-A-Daisy!
> 
> Sorry, I thought AmondoTech was an independant manufacturer of cells, and perhaps not just a vendor.
> 
> ...



:naughty: The folks that say don't use NimH would probably have a cow if they found out I had Lith AAs in several of my M*gled products!!! :shrug:


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 25, 2007)

Not very sophisticated testing by any means. But I use a pair of either Eneloop, Hybrid or Kodak PreCharged each day in my Garmin Etrex Legend GPS.

On two nights a week it stays on until about 9PM from 8AM and it could be any of the three at any time.

It has never died except for twice on Hybrids that either were p*ssed off about major heat or didn't get a complete charge as I hadn't settled on a charge regimen at the time.

At least in MY use I find no difference in the three brands.

I'd never go for the Ratshak cells at over twice what I give for Hybrids or Kodaks at Walmart.

One last thought. I have a Streamlight Junior LUX that at least three times had the rear NimH go dead when using earlier 2100 Energizers or 1800 Rayovacs. I have had no more trouble since putting a pair of Hybrid in it.

In further testing of the regular NimH in question I didn't find any to be much worse that any other. Most of those earlier lower capacity cells are still viable. Just not in this particular Streamlight!


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## UnknownVT (Oct 25, 2007)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> Not very sophisticated testing by any means. But I use a pair of either Eneloop, Hybrid or Kodak PreCharged each day in my Garmin Etrex Legend GPS.
> At least in MY use I find no difference in the three brands.
> In further testing of the regular NimH in question I didn't find any to be much worse that any other. Most of those earlier lower capacity cells are still viable.


 
Generally I agree - there isn't that much material difference between battery brands.

eg: this is the way I feel about regular alkaline batteries - I just buy whatever's the cheapest on sale and look for fresh dates/places with fast turnover of stock.

I applied this to regular NiMH rechargeables - I had some 1600mAh RayOVac NiMH bought years ago that are still very viable too. 
So when I was looking for some higher capacity NiMH - I just bought the cheapest locally available - that was from WalMart and the "generic" Digital Concepts/Sakar brand @ $6.25/4 (they are now $7.95) - these have worked fine - with the expected capacity, and do hold a workable charge for at least a couple of months.

When I got interested in LSD - the Kodak Pre-Charged were just becoming available at WalMart for $7.88/4 - this was almost a no brainer for me - significantly cheaper than other LSDs and locally available - and from everything I've read so far they do seem about equal to all the other LSDs.

The only possible differences may be that the Sanyo eneloops may be better made - so may last longer - eneloop and Kodak Pre-Charged are both rated for 1,000 cycles, whereas most of the other LSDs are rated 500 cycles.

The other difference might be voltage level maintenance - 
eneloop and Uniross Hybrio are said by some to maintain a higher voltage level - see Post #*84* (link) in this thread - this may be important in battery voltage sensitive equipment (like the Pentax K100D dSLR cited in the post).


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## GaryF (Oct 26, 2007)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> The folks that say don't use NiMH would probably have a cow if they found out I had Lith AAs in several of my M*gled products!!! :shrug:



Terralux was asked a few years back why they didn't recommend NimH for their mini m*g product. The answer was that it wouldn't hurt the light, but that the batteries were likely to be damaged if run down all the way, as the circuit would not drop out until the voltage fell below 1 volt (can't remember the exact voltage cutout). This is too low for NiMH batteries in series, with the weaker cell very likely to be reversed and damaged. Perhaps this is the same reason M*g doesn't recommend NiMH?:thinking:


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## Power Me Up (Oct 26, 2007)

GaryF said:


> Terralux was asked a few years back why they didn't recommend NimH for their mini m*g product. The answer was that it wouldn't hurt the light, but that the batteries were likely to be damaged if run down all the way, as the circuit would not drop out until the voltage fell below 1 volt (can't remember the exact voltage cutout). This is too low for NiMH batteries in series, with the weaker cell very likely to be reversed and damaged. Perhaps this is the same reason M*g doesn't recommend NiMH?:thinking:



I just checked the Maglite product manual which is available from the following URL for their C & D cell flashlights:
http://www.maglite.com/pdf/CustServ/C_BEC_6_041112004509252.pdf

Under the warnings section, in part, it says:
To reduce the risk of personal injury or harm to your flashlight,
take the following precautions:
• Use only alkaline batteries from a reputable manufacturer.
• Do not use rechargeable or reuseable alkaline batteries.

Although this could be interpreted as saying to only use non rechargeable alkalines that come from reputable manufacturers - and is probably how it is intended to be interpreted, it could also be interpreted as: If you're going to be using alkalines, make sure that they're from a reputable manufacturer. If you're going to use rechargeables, make sure that they're not rechargeable alkalines.

I know I'm being rather pedantic here, but if it was something that could be sued for, I'm sure a lawyer would have a good try at arguing the second interpretation. If they really wanted the first interpretation, maybe they should have said:
• Use only alkaline batteries.
• Use only batteries from a reputable manufacturer.
• Do not use rechargeable or reuseable batteries of any kind.

As far as wrecking NiMH cells by reverse charging them, I don't think that's really part of Mags concern - I'd say that they're mainly worried about their own liability for personal injury and damage to flashlights.

Maybe they're wanting people to only use alkalines so that they get to sell more flashlights to replace those damaged by leaking cells!

Anyway... I'll just grab my hat & coat before the flame throwers come out!


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## SilverFox (Oct 26, 2007)

Hello Power Me Up,

That is an interesting interpretation...

Going a bit further into this... What is it about rechargeable alkaline cells that can cause personal injury while using a MagLite?

Tom


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## Mitch470 (Oct 26, 2007)

wasBlinded said:


> My C9000 gave my Hybrids an average 2050 mAh and my Eneloops 1950 mAh.
> 
> Obviously, YMMV.


 
My BC-900 gave my 16 Eneloop AA's a mean discharge capacity of 2021 mAh. 15 got one Test Mode Cycle and one got 2 Test Mode Cycles boosting it from 1930 mAh to 2080 mAh.

Were your numbers a Charge Accumulated Capacity or a Discharge Capacity? The former can be much higher than the latter.


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## ktt (Oct 26, 2007)

Has anyone used these kind of batteries in high-current Maglite modifications like ROP? Do these survive the appx 4 amps current?

I'm currently building my 2D ROP with 6 AAs and I'm considering using Varta Ready2use batteries, as they are currently sold here in Finland for 7.99€ in 4 piece package.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 26, 2007)

I'd tell ya but then I'd have to kill ya... just kidding!

I'm pretty darn sure they have been tried in some hotrod lights. I have 6 in a 2D M*g running a M*gcharger bulb as my go to Incandescent light. They handle that just peachy. I did have 9 in my M*g85 and they did allright but I wanted them for something else so some older Rayovac 1800 are in there now.

My Rop Hi runs on two 18650 and almost always has. I could try the LSD but would never be able to tell if was as bright or not. I'm fairly sure that these LSD NimH have been okay at 4A in some of SilverFoxs tests.


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## Power Me Up (Oct 26, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Going a bit further into this... What is it about rechargeable alkaline cells that can cause personal injury while using a MagLite?



Alkalines that have been recharged are supposedly more likely to leak...


----------



## john2551 (Oct 26, 2007)

Well being that this thread was started 11 months ago, what brand has proven to have the best LSD cells? I don't mind paying more for the best brand.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 26, 2007)

john2551 said:


> Well being that this thread was started 11 months ago, what brand has proven to have the best LSD cells? I don't mind paying more for the best brand.



As I have said, at least when talking of Hybrids, Eneloops and Kodak Pre-Chraged I couldn't recommend one over the others. 

I have Hybrids the most, at least 24. Then Kodak at 12 and lastly Eneloops at 4.

Hybrids are what run my 6AA M*gcharger bulb 2D, and did run my M*g85.

I personally don't see how you could go wrong with Hybrids.

Now I'm positively sure someone will be along to shoot me down in flames!


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## SilverFox (Oct 26, 2007)

After thinking about this a bit more...

One issue with NiMh cells is that they can give off Hydrogen gas. In a sealed compartment, hydrogen gas can become an issue if there is a spark source present.

Dive lights are sealed. They incorporate a catalyst pellet to absorb the hydrogen gas, if present. I believe MagLites are somewhat sealed, but they do not have any protection against hydrogen gas.

The Heliotek light is designed to use primary lithium AA cells. They specifically warn against using NiMh cells because if the hydrogen gas issue. It seems a spark can be generated simply by unscrewing the tail cap.

I don't know the rechargeable alkaline chemistry, but I am not sure it involves a hydrogen gas cycle... I know they adjusted the chemistry to allow for recharging, but I don't know the specifics.

Tom


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## Power Me Up (Oct 27, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> After thinking about this a bit more...
> 
> One issue with NiMh cells is that they can give off Hydrogen gas. In a sealed compartment, hydrogen gas can become an issue if there is a spark source present.



Interesting idea...

Aren't they more likely to vent hydrogen gas under sustained high current overcharging than under any other circumstances?

I think that I do recall someone reporting a case of a NiMH cell venting whilst in use in a torch though... Would be interesting to find that thread and re-read it with that in mind.



> Dive lights are sealed. They incorporate a catalyst pellet to absorb the hydrogen gas, if present. I believe MagLites are somewhat sealed, but they do not have any protection against hydrogen gas.


Do the MagChargers contain hydrogen absorbing pellets or do NiCad cells not vent hydrogen gas? If they don't vent hydrogen, what do they vent?



> I don't know the rechargeable alkaline chemistry, but I am not sure it involves a hydrogen gas cycle... I know they adjusted the chemistry to allow for recharging, but I don't know the specifics.


I think that the major change was adding vents to prevent the cells from exploding if overcharged or charged too quickly. Of course, there would also be changes to the anode and cathode as well...


----------



## MorePower (Oct 27, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> I don't know the rechargeable alkaline chemistry, but I am not sure it involves a hydrogen gas cycle... I know they adjusted the chemistry to allow for recharging, but I don't know the specifics.
> 
> Tom



This is a bit off topic, but here goes.

Rechargeable alkaline cells have, among other things, a different electrolyte concentration, a different particle size distribution and shape for the zinc, additives to both the electrolyte (to reduce zinc shape change on recharge) and the cathode (to improve rechargeability) and an additional layer of separator material to prevent dendrite growth and shorting after recharge.


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## PhantomPhoton (Oct 28, 2007)

So I take it no one knows what the max current an Eneloop LSD can handle? Eneloops own spec sheet gives a discharge curve at 4A so I know they will survive that. However does anyone know if they will light up a hotwire at 4 ~ 5C? I'm thinking of trying to use 12 driving a 100W Osram bulb.


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## SilverFox (Oct 28, 2007)

Hello PhantomPhoton,

The Eneloop AA cells fall on their face at about 10 amps.

Tom


----------



## john2551 (Oct 28, 2007)

Tom,

After testing these various LSD cells for many months, which brand if any do you feel has superior (overall)performance?

Thanks,

John


----------



## SilverFox (Oct 28, 2007)

Hello John,

I have only checked out the Eneloop and the Hybrid cells. The Eneloop cells come out a little bit ahead.

Tom


----------



## PhantomPhoton (Oct 28, 2007)

Thanks Tom, I think I won't be going above 10 amps.
I'll hopefully get the equipment together and give it a try soon.


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## john2551 (Oct 29, 2007)

I looked in Wal-Mart today to no avail. No LSD batteries of any brand. What stores have a good supply of these? Here in NY we have Target, Kmart, Sears, Office Depot, Kohls, Best Buy, Circuit City, RadioShack are a few that come to mind. Who has the best price? Thanks.


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## UnknownVT (Oct 29, 2007)

john2551 said:


> I looked in Wal-Mart today to no avail. No LSD batteries of any brand.


 
WalMart can be tricky sometimes -

The RayOVac Hybrids (4AA, 4AAA, and charger with 2AA & 2AAA) are kept in the battery aisle, as one would expect.

But eneloop (4AA with charger), and the Kodak Pre-Charged (4AA and 4AA with cheap slow timer charger) are on the display with camera accessories.

Targets do have the RoV Hybrids.


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## PhantomPhoton (Oct 29, 2007)

I found my Eneloops at Fry's. I haven't checked my local Costcos yet to see if they've shown up. I see RoV in Target all the time.


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## ktt (Nov 8, 2007)

Hello

I don't know whether this is interesting to anyone, but let's dump this out anyway...

I bought 12 pcs of Varta Ready2Go 2100 mAh AA-size NiMhs, my purpose is to use them in my 6AA ROP (which will realize as soon as the actual 2D body will arrive from mail...). Before using them at all, I placed them to BC-900 and selected Test operation with 100mA discharge and 200mA charge current. The test was done in 18 degrees Celcius.

The results were as follows:
Battery ID - Measured capasity in mAh
01 - 2010
02 - 1986
03 - 2020
04 - 2090
05 - 2110
06 - 2020
07 - 2040
08 - 2070
09 - 2100
10 - 2020
11 - 2110
12 - 2110

My intention is to make the same test again after a few cycles of ROPing. I have marked the batteries so I know which are which.

- Kalle


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## UnknownVT (Nov 12, 2007)

ktt said:


> I don't know whether this is interesting to anyone, but let's dump this out anyway...
> I bought 12 pcs of Varta Ready2Go 2100 mAh AA-size NiMhs


 
Thank you for that input. 
Very interesting that these seems to be pretty accurately rated/spec'd.

Were these capacity readings straight out of the package (ie: without any charging by you) -
or, if charged - which charge/cycle?

Thanks,


----------



## ktt (Nov 12, 2007)

UnknownVT said:


> Thank you for that input.
> Were these capacity readings straight out of the package (ie: without any charging by you) -
> or, if charged - which charge/cycle?



I took them from the sales package and placed them into La Crosse BC-900 charger i.e. I did not first use them at all in any other device. Then, from the charger, I selected the "test" function with charge current 200mA and discharge current 100mA.

The test function works as follows:
1) Charge the battery to full with defined (200mA) charge current
2) Discharge the battery with defined (100mA) discharge current
3) Print the measured capasity to display
4) Charge the battery to full with defined (200mA) charge current

So this means that for all of these batteries, this was their first cycle of full discharge.

- Kalle


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## wasBlinded (Nov 13, 2007)

Nimh cells are supposed to be capacity rated at a discharge current of C/5, which would be 400 mA for those Varta cells. Discharging at 100 mA instead will give slightly more favorable results.


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## cave dave (Feb 16, 2008)

I came across the wikipedia article and it has these brands and mentioned that they are all made in one of three factories (Sanyo, Panasonic and Yuasa-Delta):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_self-discharge_NiMH_battery

# AccuPower - AccuLoop
# Alcava - All in One
# Ansmann - maxE
# Conrad Electronic - Endurance
# Duracell - ActiveCharge
# Duracell - Pre-charged
# Gold Peak - ReCyko
# Hähnel - Synergy
# Kodak - Pre Charged
# Maha - Powerex Imedion
# Nexcell - EnergyON
# Panasonic - INFINIUM[8]
# Panasonic - R2
# Rayovac Hybrid
# (GE/)Sanyo - Eneloop
# SBS - BiReady
# SKB - ready2use
# Sony - CycleEnergy
# Sunmol - AnyEnow
# SWISSBATTERIES - accubattery
# Titanium - Enduro
# Uniross - Hybrio[13]
# VARTA - Consumer Batteries Ready2Use
# Vapextech - Instant


----------



## Eugene (Feb 16, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> What is it about rechargeable alkaline cells that can cause personal injury while using a MagLite?



they can leak and eat a hole in your light causing you to get mad, like they did to me. If I ever meet one of the rayovac engineers that designed those renewals I'll cause him some personal injury.


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## Bones (Feb 17, 2008)

Eugene said:


> they can leak and eat a hole in your light causing you to get mad, like they did to me. If I ever meet one of the rayovac engineers that designed those renewals I'll cause him some personal injury.



It was probably the bean counters that refused to fund the quality the engineers would have preferred, so I concur, at least insofar as the 'beanies' are concerned ...


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## AdamThirnis (Feb 17, 2008)

For Uk guys the Panasonic Infiniums are at 7dayshop. The Duracell Activecharge AAs are at Argos @ a silly £14.99 for 4.


----------



## Black Rose (Mar 10, 2008)

LEDninja said:


> Pure Energy NiMH Pre Charged
> C$12 at WallMart Canada for AAA4
> RayOvac Hybrids are C$14


Wal-Mart Canada now sells the Rayovac Hybrids for $8.97 for a 4-pack - AA or AAA.


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## UnknownVT (Mar 10, 2008)

cave dave said:


> I came across the wikipedia article and it has these brands and mentioned that they are all made in one of three factories (Sanyo, Panasonic and Yuasa-Delta):
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_self-discharge_NiMH_battery


 

This is probably right - 
but it appears (by inference only) that there may only be _*TWO*_ different technologies so far 
(hence the claimed common capacities of 2000mAh for eneloops and re-badges, and 2100mAh for everyone else)

Clicking on the reference link [7] for the 3 makers -

" _These new type of batteries are marketed with over a dozen different brand names, but only actually made by 3 companies - (__Sanyo__, __Panasonic__ and __Yuasa-Delta__).__[7]_ "

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/HONSHI/20061120/124026/

I read:

" _Matsushita Battery Industrial Co Ltd of Japan, jointly with GS Yuasa Corp of Japan, has also developed a NiMH rechargeable battery with reduced self-discharge, to be released by Matsushita Electric Industrial Co Ltd of Japan on February 1, 2006. After full charging, and storage outside the charger at no more than +20*C, it is said to maintain about 80% of capacity even after six to 12 months. The performance of conventional designs is only about 30%. The minimum capacities of the AA-size HHR-3MPS and AAA-size HHR-4MPS are 2000mAh and 750mAh, respectively. They will withstand about 1,000 discharge/recharge cycles._ "

Panasonic is part of Matsushita, and the development was jointly with GS Yuasa Corp - so the technology should be the same - 
although they probably would manufacture separately, but using essentially the same technology?


----------



## MorePower (Mar 10, 2008)

cave dave and UnknownVT (and anyone else, for that matter) -

Wikipedia is wrong; there are only 2 factories making LSD cells.

Yuasa-Delta makes cells (2100mAh) and Sanyo makes cells (2000mAh). Panasonic jointly devolped the tech with Yuasa-Delta, but they don't produce the cells themselves, leaving that up to Yuasa. I emailed Panasonic and received a reply to that effect.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 10, 2008)

MorePower said:


> Wikipedia is wrong; there are only 2 factories making LSD cells.
> 
> Yuasa-Delta makes cells (2100mAh) and Sanyo makes cells (2000mAh).


This though leaves us with a puzzle. Some early tests suggested that different brands of non-Sanyo cell, such as the Rayovac Hybrid and the Uniross Hybrio, have different properties. Might it therefore be that "one factory" doesn't necessarily mean "one product"?


----------



## UnknownVT (Mar 10, 2008)

Mr Happy said:


> This though leaves us with a puzzle. Some early tests suggested that different brands of non-Sanyo cell, such as the Rayovac Hybrid and the Uniross Hybrio, have different properties. Might it therefore be that "one factory" doesn't necessarily mean "one product"?


 
Some examples of different claimed characteristics -

Sanyo made -

eneloop - 2000mAh, 1,000 cycles

Others - (only made by Yuasa?) -

RoV Hybrid - 2100mAh, more than 500 cycles
Uniross Hybrio - 2100mAh, 500 cycles

Panasonic R2 - 2050mAh, 1,000 cycles
Kodak Pre-Charged - 2100mAh, 1,000 cycles

The Kodak Pre-Charged have been found to be fatter than most LSD - which could account for better capacity, but not necessarily better cycle-life by a factor of _TWO._

Although obviously marketing/sales pitch may be in play - one should note the regular (non-LSD) Kodak 2500mAh NiMH rechargeable claim only 500 cycles.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Mar 10, 2008)

Indeed the Kodaks are fatter.

But those and Hybrids do the same things Eneloops do for ME.

Your mileage may differ....


----------



## chewy78 (Mar 10, 2008)

how about the rebadged duracell 2000mah precharged nimh's ? arent those made by sanyo?


----------



## UnknownVT (Mar 11, 2008)

chewy78 said:


> how about the rebadged duracell 2000mah precharged nimh's ? arent those made by sanyo?


 
Yes....
the suspected re-badged eneloops are *Made in Japan* - 
Durcell Pre-Charged are also made in China -

please see -

Duracell Pre-Charged Rechargeables - Buyer Advisory


----------



## Jackson (Mar 11, 2008)

UnknownVT said:


> The Kodak Pre-Charged have been found to be fatter than most LSD - which could account for better capacity, but not necessarily better cycle-life by a factor of _TWO._



IMO, the better cycle-life is a result of Kodak's advanced marketing department.

I still remember when the packaging for the Rayovac I-C3 cells changed the claim from "up to 500" cycles to "up to 1000".

I don't know what exactly determines the maximum number of cycles, but a change like that without any associated fanfare seems suspect.


----------



## UnknownVT (Mar 11, 2008)

Jackson said:


> IMO, the better cycle-life is a result of Kodak's advanced marketing department.
> I don't know what exactly determines the maximum number of cycles, but a change like that without any associated fanfare seems suspect.


 
Marketing are often suspected of inflating specs - 
but to double the cycle-life is a bit far fetched, 
and probably easily challenged.

So are Panasonic using the same marketing department?


----------



## mishoo (Mar 11, 2008)

There is a great thread at dpreview.com on testing the self-discharge rate of many low self-discharge batteries, with a graph showing that for AAs, the MAHA Imedion is likely the winner, followed by Kodak Pre-Charged and GP Recyko.

*NOTE 1*: If you read the graph prior to 2008-04-18, the lines corresponding to a bunch of batteries will drop to zero at the end of the 3-month testing period. This is because there has been no 3-month reading for those batteries yet, and in Excel, no reading defaults to 0. Those readings are scheduled for 2008-04-18.

*NOTE 2*: The "-500" point in the graph represents the capacity of the batteries at the moment of the delivery. The "0" point represents capacity after 3 charge cycles.

I have included below the graphs and legend from dpreview (thanks archae86!).







Legend:
First Round 
ENL--Eneloop by Sanyo 2000 mAh 
TPE--Titanium Power Enduro 2100 mAh 
HYB--Hybrio by Ultralast 2100 mAh 
ACC--Acculoop 2100 mAh 
RHY--Hybrid by Ray-O-Vac 2100 mAh 

Second Round 
DPC--Duracell Precharged 2100 mAH 
ENO--Nexcell EnergyON 2000 mAh 
KPC--Kodak Pre-Charged 2100 mAh 
AMX--Ansmann Max-e 2100 mAh 
IME--MAHA IMEDION 2100 mAh 
GRY--GP Recyko 2100 mAh 






Legend:
First Round 
HY8--Hybrio by Ultralast 800 mAh 

Second Round 
IM8--MAHA IMEDION 800 mAh 
AC8--Accupower Acculoop 800 mAh 
EN8--Sanyo Eneloop 800 mAh 
DP8--Duracell Precharged 800 mAh 
GR8--GP Recyko 800 mAh 

NOTE 2: the Maha Imedion is not listed on the first post of this thread, and the OP looks gone.


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## chewy78 (Mar 11, 2008)

UnknownVT said:


> Yes....
> the suspected re-badged eneloops are *Made in Japan* -
> Durcell Pre-Charged are also made in China -
> 
> ...



Ah yes. I think i had seen only the ones that were made in Japan at my local wally world so i got those instead of driving around looking for eneloops. They looked eerily similar to the eneloops at the time. And were pretty sure they were.


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## UnknownVT (Mar 11, 2008)

mishoo said:


> There is a great thread at dpreview.com on testing the self-discharge rate of many low self-discharge batteries, with a graph showing that for AAs, the MAHA Imedion is likely the winner, followed by Ansmann Max-e 2100 and GP Recyko. (NOTE: the Maha Imedion is not listed on the first post of this thread, and the OP looks gone)


 
Thank you very much for the links, very useful information - thanks.

_EDIT to ADD_ - the following is _WRONG - _
the graphs show many battery capacities dropping to zero at 3 months (2184 hours) - but the explanation was " _Excel will show the value for readouts not yet taken as zero, so expect to see a bunch of curves drop to the bottom for the next readout._ " 

Sorry for my mistake in reading the graphs.

=======================================================

However I can't quite understand your conclusion that "_MAHA Imedion is likely the winner, followed by Ansmann Max-e 2100 and GP Recyko._ "

In the AA graph (link) the best performances appears to be HYB, ENL, RHY, ACC, TPE.

key:
AA NiMH low self-discharge 
ENL--Eneloop by Sanyo 2000 mAh 
TPE--Titanium Power Enduro 2100 mAh 
HYB--Hybrio by Ultralast 2100 mAh 
ACC--Acculoop 2100 mAh 
RHY--Hybrid by Ray-O-Vac 2100 mAh 

DPC--Duracell Precharged 2100 mAH 
ENO--Nexcell EnergyON 2000 mAh 
KPC--Kodak Pre-Charged 2100 mAh 
AMX--Ansmann Max-e 2100 mAh 
IME--MAHA IMEDION 2100 mAh 
GRY--GP Recyko 2100 mAh 


In the AAA graph - HY8 was the _ONLY_ battery that seemed to hold on to its charge.

Now in the AA graph the KPC (Kodak Pre-Charged) and all the other LSD (including MAHA Imedion, Ansmann Max-e 2100 and GP Recyko) batteries did not hold charge any better than a conventional NiMH convB and worse than convA - dropping to nothing at about 2,200 hours (~ 3 months) 

To me this was very surprising - 

as I own KPC - Kodak Pre-Charged and I haven't charged one set since Dec/17/2007 - so now almost 3 months (or 2,016 hours) - and they still show a very healthy charge - compared to eneloop AAs which were both freshly charged and ones that were charged also about ~3 months ago. 
Note: I can only test by voltage level and "flash amps" - but they were _NO_ where near depleted or zero as the graph seems to show.

The other "anomoloy" seems to be DPC - Duracell Pre-Charged - 
this is supposed to be a *re-badged eneloop* - 
its performance dropped to essentially zero after ~2,200 hours - 
whereas ENL - eneloop (second best only after HYB) has had 500 more hours test time ie: ENL's test time was 2,700 hours.

Also in the AAA graph - EN8 - eneloop AAA - shows zero at 2,200 hours (I don't understand why the EN8 line and all the others extend back to -500 hours, since all the LSD AAAs were supposed to be in the second round except HY8) - I know many people have bought eneloop AAAs which were dated back to 2006 (mine were 08-2006) - so some are well over a year old since the initial partial factory charge - for people who did test the batteries fresh out of the pack uncharged - no one reported a dead battery - in fact most reported close to 70-80% charge. 
Even allowing for only one year since they left the factory, that's closer to ~8,800 hours - which is *4 times* the test time from not a full-charge but closer to a 80% charge from the factory.

Based on all this, perhaps the test may be somehow flawed?
======================================================


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## chewy78 (Mar 11, 2008)

I think they got their tests not done lol


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## WildChild (Mar 11, 2008)

UnknownVT said:


> The other "anomoloy" seems to be DPC - Duracell Pre-Charged -
> this is supposed to be a *re-badged eneloop* -
> its performance dropped to essentially zero after ~2,200 hours -
> whereas ENL - eneloop (second best only after HYB) has had 500 more hours test time ie: ENL's test time was 2,700 hours.



It probably depends! My Duracel Pre-Charged are made in Japan, looks physically like Eneloop cells, act like Eneloop cells in my ROP (same runtime, same whiteness/brightness) and are marked as 2000 mAh. There have been reports here of different Duracell Pre-Charged that looks like the Rayovac Hybrid, that are made in China and that have 2100 mAh. The Rayovac Hybrid are known to have "poorer" performances than the Eneloop but they still have a good low self-discharge. Based on the tests made here, the Eneloop have a low internal resistance and sag much less under heavy load!


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## geek4christ (Mar 11, 2008)

UnknownVT said:


> The other "anomoloy" seems to be DPC - Duracell Pre-Charged -
> this is supposed to be a *re-badged eneloop* -
> its performance dropped to essentially zero after ~2,200 hours -
> whereas ENL - eneloop (second best only after HYB) has had 500 more hours test time ie: ENL's test time was 2,700 hours.



It could be that they tested with the Made in China Duracells. I know that several members have confirmed the Made in Japan cells behave almost identically to Eneloops, but the Made in China one's behave differently. This is based, of course, on no actual experience of my own...just what I've been reading. Others are welcome to step in and correct me if I'm wrong here.

...There are still the other issues you mentioned, though...


----------



## geek4christ (Mar 11, 2008)

...doh! WildChild beat me to it


----------



## UnknownVT (Mar 11, 2008)

WildChild said:


> It probably depends! My Duracel Pre-Charged are made in Japan, looks physically like Eneloop cells, act like Eneloop cells in my ROP (same runtime, same whiteness/brightness) and are marked as 2000 mAh. There have been reports here of different Duracell Pre-Charged that looks like the Rayovac Hybrid, that are made in China and that have 2100 mAh. The Rayovac Hybrid are known to have "poorer" performances than the Eneloop but they still have a good low self-discharge. Based on the tests made here, the Eneloop have a low internal resistance and sag much less under heavy load!


 
Yes, I agree - 
these might not be the made in Japan re-badged eneloops - 
but they had to have been obtained over 3 months ago - 
just about when the Duracell Pre-Charged first became available - 
I think they were all made in Japan at that time - 
the thread Duracell Pre-Charged Rechargeables - Buyer Advisory 
observing that there were some now made in China - 
was started 2/25/2008 less than a month ago.

Let's say somehow even if the tester had managed to get some Duracells Pre-Charged that were made in China - 
which are said to be the same as RoV Hybrids.

OK.... 
RHY (RoV Hybrid) in the AA graph was the third best - 
so there is still a contradiction -
RoV Hybrids tested over 2,700 hours still had plenty of charge -
vs. Duracell Pre-Charged going to zero after only 2,200 hours.......

_EDIT to ADD_ - that above about graphs going to zero is _WRONG - _
the graphs do show many battery capacities dropping to zero at 3 months (2184 hours) - but the explanation was " _Excel will show the value for readouts not yet taken as zero, so expect to see a bunch of curves drop to the bottom for the next readout._ " 
Sorry for my mistake in reading the graphs.


----------



## Mr Happy (Mar 11, 2008)

To all who questioned the "zero after 3 months" in those charts, careful reading of the thread explains the data is not posted yet. The 3 month results will not be added to the chart until mid-April or so.


----------



## mighty82 (Mar 11, 2008)

Mr Happy said:


> To all who questioned the "zero after 3 months" in those charts, careful reading of the thread explains the data is not posted yet. The 3 month results will not be added to the chart until mid-April or so.


DOH!! That explains everything. It didn't make sence with that steep fall in the graphs. I feel stupid not to have seen that from the graphs. The dots marks where they have been tested of course.


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## UnknownVT (Mar 11, 2008)

mighty82 said:


> DOH!! That explains everything. It didn't make sence with that steep fall in the graphs. I feel stupid not to have seen that from the graphs. The dots marks where thay have been tested of course.



Nope - I'm the one who should be standing the corner with a dunce's hat on for not noting that the graphs aren't supposed to drop down to zero......

Sorry everyone, for kicking up a fuss over nothing. I'll edit my posts to reflect my mistake.

Now I can see why *mishoo *thought that the MAHA Imedion, Ansmann Max-e 2100 and GP Recyko were winning - 
although it's hard to see on the graph due to overlap, but I don't think the second highest line is AMX - but probably KPC - look at the line at 168 hours (1 week) that looks like pale blue dash as opposed to a diamond?


----------



## mishoo (Mar 11, 2008)

*I've edited my original post to include graphs, legend and explanations.

Clarifications summary*:

1. The "winners" so far can only be told at the ~650 hours mark in the graph. Indeed, AMX doesn't seem to be there, but the order for best self-discharge rate in AA rechargeable batteries is rather:
IME - Maha Imedion
KPC - Kodak Pre-Charged
GRY - GP Recyko
2. The graph extends to the left to "-500", which represents the capacity of the batteries as delivered:


> Caution: In order to show the initial capacity as delivered, I've adopted the convention of calling that -500 hours.


"0" is "capacity after at least three cycles" (link).


----------



## Raymond (Mar 22, 2008)

Is there any info on how the panasonic infiniums compare to other types of LSD cells?
I found out this afternoon that I can buy the panasonics locally, for a reasonable price.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Mar 22, 2008)

At this time about Uniross Hybrio AA I say hmm.....

They came out of the package at 1.30V and I ran them in my Garmin Etrex Legend GPS on bowling nights (Monday and Wednesday).

Neither pair made it to the end. On Monday I parked the truck at 5:15 thinking I was taking it to Bowling Alley. Took Dads truck instead.

GPS was dead when I got home about 9

On Wednesday night it died between me going into the Alley about 6:15 and coming out about 8:45.

I've put them through a cycle on my C Crane and will try again on the same nights.

Got no complaints about Rayovac Hybrids, Kodak Pre-Charged or Sony Eneloops.


----------



## chewy78 (Mar 24, 2008)

the hybrios would be interesting to try out. I might order some of those. to test


----------



## cy (Mar 24, 2008)

getting sick of self discharge of all my NMH AA's. past time to try out some LSD AA's. 

are those $5 off coupons still available?


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Mar 25, 2008)

So far after doing the Hybrios on my C Crane a pair ran Monday from about 8am to 9pm in my GPS which is at least a s good as any other NimH I've used.


----------



## Centropolis (Mar 25, 2008)

This is a totaly newbie question.....

I can charge these new LSD batteries with my current NiMH chargers right? I have an older Maha model. I hope they work.


----------



## LiteTheWay (Mar 25, 2008)

Sub_Umbra said:


> I'm another who would jump right into NiMH LSD Cs and Ds. I use a lot of C and D NiCads now and I could go on using them for quite a while but they have been marked for oblivion by the *Green Nazis* in spite of the fact that there is no alternative available that does what NiCad Cs and Ds can do. They still work better than NiMH cells in radios and other non-light electronic applications and they have _increased efficacy_ in portable lighting now that the Crees and Seouls are on the scene.
> 
> I've already switched over to Eneloop AAs and AAAs and have bought my last NiCad *in those sizes.* I truly wish *someone* would market LSD NiMH cells in C and D sizes to fill my needs but I'll bet I'll be buying another bunch of NiCad Cs and Ds from Amondo. Oh well, they'll last forever.




The only maker so far of C and D size LSD NiMh cells is Accupower. Available from Thomas Distributing.


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## Sub_Umbra (Mar 26, 2008)

7histology,

Thanks. I saw them in another post since I wrote that. I haven't bought any yet but it's only a matter of time...


----------



## TorchBoy (Mar 26, 2008)

Centropolis said:


> I can charge these new LSD batteries with my current NiMH chargers right? I have an older Maha model. I hope they work.


Yes, no problem.


----------



## Yucca Patrol (Mar 26, 2008)

Is there a FAQ for LSD batteries around here somewhere describing the benefits/drawbacks of LSD batteries? The topic is not listed in the Welcome Mat, 

I just bought the Costco blue box of Eneloops and am trying to figure out which situations I should use them and when I should use my high capacity Powerex 2700mAh NiMH batteries.

As a caver, I take my batteries very seriously because I must carry a lifetime supply of batteries with me when I go underground (enough batteries to provide enough light for me to exit the cave before I die lost in the dark).

I spend a couple of days charging and testing my batteries before each trip and use the Powerex NiMH batteries because they have the highest real-world capacity on the market. As nice as the eneloops are for maintaining their capacity, I am disappointed by the loss in total capacity when compared to freshly charged high capacity NiMH

So my questions is this: If slow discharge is not really important for me when I am caving, are there other reasons that I still might choose the eneloops for my purposes? 

Or should I just use the eneloops in devices such as remote controls and the bedside/glovebox flashlights around the house that are less critical and are used rarely or minimally over many months where the LSD properties make them more convenient?


----------



## geek4christ (Mar 26, 2008)

Centropolis said:


> This is a totaly newbie question.....
> 
> I can charge these new LSD batteries with my current NiMH chargers right? I have an older Maha model. I hope they work.



Yes, that should be fine. LSD cells are still NiMH, so the same charging algorithms apply.


----------



## Black Rose (Mar 26, 2008)

geek4christ said:


> Yes, that should be fine. LSD cells are still NiMH, so the same charging algorithms apply.


As long as it is a quality charger like the Maha units.

If it was a different charger, you'd have to verify the charging rate to make sure that the charger wouldn't kill the cells like my old Rayovac charger did.


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## Centropolis (Mar 26, 2008)

Black Rose said:


> As long as it is a quality charger like the Maha units.
> 
> If it was a different charger, you'd have to verify the charging rate to make sure that the charger wouldn't kill the cells like my old Rayovac charger did.



How about a newer Energizer compact charger? Like this:

http://reviews.cnet.com/power-devic...act-charger-battery/4505-3509_7-31231297.html


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## SilverFox (Mar 26, 2008)

Hello Yucca Patrol,

The Eneloop cells offer higher voltage under load, low self discharge rates, and higher cycle life. If those features are not a benefit to you while “underground,” you will have to choose other uses for those cells.

Tom


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## Sub_Umbra (Mar 26, 2008)

Yucca Patrol said:


> ...Or should I just use the eneloops in devices such as remote controls and the bedside/glovebox flashlights around the house that are less critical and are used rarely or minimally over many months where the LSD properties make them more convenient?


Convenience is a big factor in my purchasing Eneloops, whether I use them as part of my emergency plan or just mundane tasks.

I have a few routine uses for Eneloops that are perfect for them. We run a couple radios and a small FM transmitter that were a real PITA to try to keep fed with regular NiMH cells. The difference is breathtaking. I also have a tiny 3xAAA headlight that I only use for a few minutes once or twice a month. When I ran it of NiMHs it was either dead or near death _almost every time I needed to use it._ The Eneloops have changed it into a whole 'nother device.

I'd imagine that everyone will be different but many NiMH users will have at least _a few devices_ that don't draw much and yet seem almost impossible to keep NiMHs in.


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## Black Rose (Mar 26, 2008)

Centropolis said:


> How about a newer Energizer compact charger? Like this:
> 
> http://reviews.cnet.com/power-devic...act-charger-battery/4505-3509_7-31231297.html


It says it's an 8.5 hour charger, so probably not. 

From the reading I've done here and at batteryuniversity.com, NiMh cells like a strong charge current ranging from half capacity to full capacity (for a 2000 mAh cell, a charge rate of 1000 mA to 2000 mA is ideal). If I only knew then what I know now...

My Rayovac PS16-B charger is a 4-6 hour charger. As it stands right now, the break in cycle on my new Maha MH-C9000 is showing that I have 8 AA NiMh cells that appear to have been ruined by the Rayovac charger. 

I have four more cells undergoing break in right now, and am expecting the same results.


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## Centropolis (Mar 26, 2008)

Black Rose said:


> It says it's an 8.5 hour charger, so probably not.
> 
> From the reading I've done here and at batteryuniversity.com, NiMh cells like a strong charge current ranging from half capacity to full capacity (for a 2000 mAh cell, a charge rate of 1000 mA to 2000 mA is ideal). If I only knew then what I know now...
> 
> ...



Damn!! I also have an old Maha 604 I think.......it also charges AAs in more than 6 hours. Does that mean I have no charger that will charge LSD NiMHs well??  

This is one of the saddest moments of my day so far.


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## Black Rose (Mar 26, 2008)

Don't take my word on that - I'm a noob when it comes to this stuff. I've learned a lot from this site in the couple of weeks I've been here, but I am still learning.

Maybe SilverFox or Mr. Happy will chime regarding your Maha 604 and your LSDs.


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## UnknownVT (Mar 26, 2008)

Centropolis said:


> Damn!! I also have an old Maha 604 I think.......it also charges AAs in more than 6 hours. Does that mean I have no charger that will charge LSD NiMHs well??
> This is one of the saddest moments of my day so far.


 
Not necessarily.

Most chargers "work" - obviously - 
otherwise they wouldn't still be on the market and still selling.

So your Maha charger - will continue to work the same way it had been working with NiMH previously - and Maha makes good chargers.

The fact that the charger takes more than 6 hours to charge - suggests that it is about C/5 charge current - maybe 400-500mA range(?) - this is not bad in itself - NiMH can be charged with almost any current within reason.

The main problem with charge currents in the range of C/10-C/3 is that the end of charge is hard to detect accurately which _may _lead to overcharge and overheating - which are the two things that shorten the life of NiMH - 

However, it's unlikely to be instant death - but a gradual but quicker decline in the battery's performance - the common symptoms are the inability of the battery to supply higher currents, or loss of capacity, and for normal NiMH the inability to hold a charge for more than a few days.

Overcharge and overheat conditions are more likely to occur if one depends on the charger to terminate properly with a battery that is mostly or partially charged - because the end of charge indications are harder to detect - the battery is more likely to be overcharged which leads to overheating.

Good chargers tend to have backup safety terminations like peak voltage and/or temperature sensors to cut off the charge when any of these are exceeded - your Maha 604 may have these - check your specs. So the likelihood of overcharge is lessened - but with older batteries the charger may cut off incorrectly - leaving the batteries either with an incomplete charge or overcharged.

The main advantage of a charger with the charge current range in the C/2-1C range is that the end of charge signal (-dV) is easier to detect - and batteries are charged close to full and not overcharged.

For the current LSD batteries in the range of 1900-2100mAh - this means the charger ideally should have a charging current in the range of 1050-1900mA or 1.05A-1.90A.

Note: I am not a battery or charger expert - I read and take in articles and posts from the more knowledgeable too.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 26, 2008)

There seems to be some debate about this whole fast charge vs. slow charge thing.

I think the short answer is, "don't sweat it".

The longer answer is more involved.

Do NiMH cells really like a strong charge current, or is it actually better for the charger this way? The argument goes that higher charging currents give a better end of charge signal, so less chance of missed terminations and consequent damage from overheated batteries. 

Of course, if you _do_ get a missed termination at higher charging currents then the overheating problem is much more severe. At lower currents heat is less of a problem. I have tried charging Eneloops on a timed charge at 400 mA beyond the fully charged point and they don't seem to get that warm at all. In fact, I almost wonder if a 6 hour timed charge at 400 mA is an optimum charge for Eneloops. (Especially since the label on the very similar Uniross Hybrios says "charge at 420 mA for 7 hours".)

In Sanyo's Eneloop Q&A, I believe they advise using more moderate charging rates for Eneloops too. Subjectively, one has to feel it is kinder to the batteries to use lower rates.

One other point sometimes mentioned is that persistent use of slower charging might reduce the high current delivery capability of the cells. I think however that Eneloops are too new to know if this could apply to them.

So I would feel happy using a slower charger. I own and have tested the Duracell Power Gauge charger that takes 4-5 hours for Eneloops and it gives them a reliable 100% charge every time without heating up the cells. I can't say if there would be a downside to this over the longer term, but it will be years before I have gone through enough charging cycles to find out.

Incidentally the Energizer Compact Charger is described as having intelligent end of charge detection, and the user manual says it will not harm batteries to leave them in the charger after they are charged. It also indicates a charge time of 4-5 hours for 2000 mAh cells.


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## Centropolis (Mar 26, 2008)

Mr Happy said:


> There seems to be some debate about this whole fast charge vs. slow charge thing.
> 
> I think the short answer is, "don't sweat it".
> 
> ...



Thanks for all this info you and the previous poster provided.

I guess it seems like the Energizer Compact Charger will work fine with LSDs....say Rayovac Hybrids. That's good to know.

And really, at $8 for 4 AAs, Rayovac Hydrids are not that expensive to start. Actually, I was surprised how cheap they were at Walmart.


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## UnknownVT (Mar 26, 2008)

Centropolis said:


> And really, at $8 for 4 AAs, Rayovac Hydrids are not that expensive to start. Actually, I was surprised how cheap they were at Walmart.


 
Really $8/4 RoV Hybrids? Or did you just shorthand the usual $8.97/4?

Actually at 2 of the local WalMarts they seem to be out of RoV Hybrids - either the 4x batteries packs, or the introductory 2xAA, 2xAAA and cheap charger pack (with the $5 off coupon) - 
contrast this with the plentiful regular RoV NiMH (see RayOVac NiMH AA (NM715) ) - so supply from RoV probably may not be a problem - could WalMart be phasing out the RoV Hybrids?

BTW - if the Hybrids are still closer to the $9 mark - 
Kodak Pre-Charged LSD batteries are $7.88/4 at WalMart - they are normally displayed with the digital camera accessories like flashcards etc. 

Personally I would rate eneloops - as they are the most well known and seem to be the standard other LSDs are judged by - the "best" - but by only a very slight margin - then the rest (excluding re-badged eneloops) aren't that far behind. The Kodak Pre-Charged seem to have been tested with noticably higher mAh capacity. But eneloops and Uniross Hybrios seem to maintain high voltages - which may be important for voltage sensitive equipment using multiple AA's. 

(eg: my Pentax K100D dSLR is very battery fussy, and I feel that eneloops probably will do better in it than Kodak Pre-Charged, as the Kodak P-C may drop their under-load voltage level quicker than eneloops - to below the camera's cut-off, shutting off the camera when there may be still charge left in the batteries - Caveat NOTE: I have not done any actual comparison test on this, so it is still conjecture/hearsay/guessing on my part)


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## Curious_character (Mar 26, 2008)

Eneloops seem to be pretty rugged.

I just finished a series of flashlight tests which required discharging batteries at a moderately high rate for 5 or 15 minutes. Then I topped the batteries back up with a Maha MH-C9000 charger and used them for additional tests. Well, somewhere along the line when topping off from the recent shallow discharge, the charger missed the end-of-charge voltage drop for one of the AAA cells. At a charge rate of 400 mA (C/2), the cell got warm but not really hot, so whatever temperature shutoff the charger has wasn't triggered either. When I discovered the problem, the indicated total charge was over 2300 mAh, or nearly three times the cell capacity. After a couple of hours rest, I checked the cell capacity by discharging it and found it to be fine. So the cell apparently didn't vent. I imagine the elevated temperature might shorten the cell life somewhat, but otherwise it doesn't seem to have been bothered by the abuse.

c_c


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## TorchBoy (Mar 26, 2008)

Yucca Patrol said:


> So my questions is this: If slow discharge is not really important for me when I am caving, are there other reasons that I still might choose the eneloops for my purposes?
> 
> Or should I just use the eneloops in devices such as remote controls and the bedside/glovebox flashlights around the house that are less critical and are used rarely or minimally over many months where the LSD properties make them more convenient?


Those uses for Eneloops are just right, and while they're much more versatile than that, your caving use well suits the higher capacity cells, since you take the time to test and charge them.

I was considering high capacity cells for my own caving trips, but I only do a handful of trips a year, and whatever cells I bought would get used far more for other tasks back in the real world, not off adventuring underground. A high priority was getting something rugged, that would last a lot of cycles and be able to tolerate occasional abuse, and simply be ready whenever I wanted to use them without having to recharge immediately beforehand. I also wanted to standardise on just one type of cell, as my devices use 2, 3, or 4 cells, so it's nice to be able to mix and match. I've found Eneloops to be very consistent in capacity.

So for me Eneloops are used caving and around home. I don't miss the extra capacity.

FWIW my present main caving light on low power with a set of Eneloop AA cells gives me a bucket load of light and about six regulated hours. My longest trip so far has been less than five and a half hours, so if I don't use high much I won't have to change mid-cave. Of course I take a spare set, plus a set of fresh alkalines. If I wanted to double my run time I'd just slap another 3 cell battery holder on my helmet - I don't find the weight a problem.


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## UnknownVT (Apr 16, 2008)

Delkin are now marketing a LSD rated at *2300mAh* -
(from xcel730 in this Post)

I think this is one of the first LSD that's been rated *>*2100mAh.

Delkin page on the 2300mAh LSD

Note: also the life cycles claim at 600 - different from the more common 500 (Yuasa) or 1,000 (eneloop & re-badges).

The only place I can find selling these (other than Delkin) is Thomas Distributing











_EDIT to ADD_ -

Only just found out Tenergy have an LSD also rated at 2300mAh -
please see this thread -

Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge


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## Jackson (Apr 16, 2008)

UnknownVT said:


> Delkin are now marketing a LSD rated at *2300mAh* -
> ...
> Note: also the life cycles claim at 600 - different from the more common 500 (Yuasa)...



I can't help but think that some marketer saw 2100mAh and 500 cycles in the specs and said "let's bump those numbers up a bit.


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## Mr Happy (Apr 16, 2008)

I'd make the observation that those Delkin cells look rather similar to the 'fake' UltraLast Hybrios and the Powerex Immedion cells: they have the dome-shaped button and the valley around the top by the plus sign. Both Hybrio and Immedion cells are claimed 2100 mAh.

I have some of the UltraLast Hybrios and they are testing consistently at around 1870 mAh. Until someone tests the Delkin cells, I would hold back on believing the 2300 mAh claim.

Regarding the cycle life claims, remember that the numbers like 500 or 1000 are not exact. The cycle life you can expect depends on how you define the end of life point, on variations in manufacture, on the conditions in which the cell is charged, stored, and discharged, and on a great big bunch of hand-waving. For practical purposes I would consider cycle lives of 500 and 1000 to be effectively the same.


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## UnknownVT (Apr 20, 2008)

FWIW - 
Post *#5* (link) in the thread - Slowest Discharge AA and AAA Nimh please?, I cant decide at forums.all-battery.com has an overview comparison of eneloops, RoV Hybrid (and Uniross Hybrio - which the poster says are the same as RoV, but please also see the thread by Mr Happy Uniross Hybrios are Eneloops...? ), Maha Imedion, Tenergy ready to use [R2U]

The post is by Tom Veldhouse who seems to do a lot of battery testing - the link to his profile shows some of his postings (or all his posts ).

_EDIT to ADD_ - another review of eneloops - seems pretty thorough -

Electronics - Review: Testing Sanyo's Eneloop Rechargeable Battery ...


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## UnknownVT (May 15, 2008)

I see the self-discharge graphs by archae86 in AA and AAA NiMH low self-discharge tests--Round 2 over at dpReview that mishoo posted in #*132* has been updated to show the full 3 months.

The best performing LSD AA was the Maha Imedion (IME), followed by the Kodak Pre-Charged (KPC) and GP ReCyko (GRY) - the KPC and GRY curves seemed very similar - almost overlapping. Graphs for AA LSDs

The graphs were hard to read because they were so close together 
- this kind of brings me to make a comment that probably for most practical purposes - these LSD batteries would be pretty similar in performance. Although it's "interesting" that all the graphs seem so similar, there were almost no crossovers ie: if a battery tested with higher capacity it maintained the higher capacity over the full 3 months......

So for now it seems pretty safe just to buy almost any LSD brand - except obviously if one hears of poor performance from any - eg: some varients of the UltraLast Hybrio.

I would still regard eneloops as the benchmark - and best of breed by reputation and what I have read - but there were several other brands of LSDs in that test that seemed to show slightly better than eneloops (including the RoV Hybrid (RHY) - however, SilverFox's tests in Eneloop Self Discharge study showed the opposite)

In the AAA LSD graphs - the GP ReCyko AAA (GR8) came top, followed by the Maha Imedion AAA (IM8), then almost overlapping eneloop AAA (EN8) and Duracell Pre-Charged AAA (DP8) (this latter is not surprising, since made in Japan Duracell Pre-Charged are suspected re-badged eneloops). Again the graphs are "interesting" in that they are so similar in shape and without any crossovers.

Since the Kodak Pre-Charged and GP ReCyko AAs are so similar could KPC be re-badge of the GP ReCyko? 
This also gives rise to speculation that the AAA may be similar re-badges?

I have noticed that WalMart is now carrying AAA Kodak Pre-Charged 2-pk @ $3.96.

PS - Wikipedia now has a separate entry for Low self-discharge NiMH battery - they now note: 
" _This new type of batteries is marketed with over a dozen different brand names, but only actually made by three companies – (__Sanyo__, __Gold Peak__ and __Yuasa__).[7]__[8]_ "

Gold Peak Group are the manufacturers for GP ReCyko - 
so I wonder if the Kodak Pre-Charged are made by them?


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## jackie628 (Oct 9, 2008)

Is anyone here have use the Eneloop Size C and D they released in Japan Sept 12, 2008? Just wondering how is the performance for Eneloop C and D. Mind to share your experience here?


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## Black Rose (Oct 9, 2008)

As far as I know, they have not been released yet in North America.

I figure Costco will be one of the first places these will show up once they are released in North America.


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## jackie628 (Oct 9, 2008)

Msg deleted. Sorry that I mistaken press 2x times here. Hopefully got some sharing about Size C and D later.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 9, 2008)

For what I do with 'em Hybrids work as well as Eneloops.

I only HAVE 4 eneloops so I can't say for sure when it comes to multi AA lights, but 6 or 9 Hybrids light up my hotwires just peachy.

I have 8 Kodaks and a few of them either grew bigger or the labels shrunk. And they look goofy but still run my GPS all day.


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## WDG (Oct 10, 2008)

Someone else has probably already posted this somewhere, but in case they haven't...

"SANYO Announces C- and D-sized ‘eneloop’ Batteries and Universal Charger"
Press release: http://www.sanyo.com/news/2008/08/08-2en.html
C = 3000 mAh
D = 5700 mAh
Charger is for all four sizes. I haven't read through enough to say if it's individual channels, yet.


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## FiftyCalAl (Oct 17, 2008)

anyone learned who offers the "c" and "d" cells yet? Gotta get some to run my new Triple LED from Malkoff in a Maglite


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## odessit (Oct 17, 2008)

I think Sanyo did a cheap hack with these cells.
C - I can't argue much (although it is very low to EnergyON C size 4500 LSD cell). It better have one hell of a low discharge rate with 1.5 Ah penalty over EnergyON
D - probably inside of the casing we will find 3 Eneloop AA batteries in parallel. Since most of my Eneloops are around 1950 to 2050 mAh the D's rating of 5700 is good fit 3x1900. EnergyON D cell is 10000 mAh.

Did anyone performed discharge rate tests on C and D EnergyON cells?


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 17, 2008)

Good LSD C's would make one of my lights 
MUCH more useful!!!


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## geek4christ (Oct 20, 2008)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> Good LSD C's would make one of my lights
> MUCH more useful!!!



Accupower has C and D sized NiMH cells with low self discharge.

Power_Me_Up has done some excellent testing on the C cells and D cells.


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